# Sticky  Will your horse respond to your bit?



## smrobs

If not, have you considered _why_?

Recently, I have seen an influx of threads asking advice about "what bit to put my horse in because I don't have control of him/her?" As opposed to retyping my opinion several times, I just decided to have a bit of a 'rant' thread.

First off, if your horse simply refuses to listen to the bit, then the problem isn't with the bit. The problem lies with what training (or lack thereof) and handling the horse is getting. The fact is that 99% of the time that a horse is ignoring the bit, slinging his head, nosing out, or any other action that most people associate as a "bit problem", it isn't the bit at all. It is a terrible thing to see that so many people are not being taught how to properly cue a horse with the bit. They almost always have solid contact and in order to stop or turn, they just pull harder. Those people have hard hands. HARD HANDS MAKE HARD HORSES. 

If the horse isn't as responsive as you like in the bit that you have, then work on him _in the bit that you have._ It is better to go back to a simple snaffle for schooling or corrective work though because it is one of the mildest bits that you can find. If a horse is responsive in a simple snaffle, then you can ride him in anything; however, if you ride him in a twisted wire gag for him to be responsive, then you would have no control in anything less. All the time we see it: a horse gets hard in the snaffle so they move him up to a twisted snaffle, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a Tom Thumb bit (one of the most worthless bits ever made in my opinion), then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a solid mouth curb with longer shanks, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a gag bit or a combination bit like those you see with a hard rope noseband and gag bit. Before you know it, the horse is being ridden in a 1/8 inch double twisted wire gag bit. Then 'what a miracle' the horse ends up hard to that too and at this point, they say "Well he is a stupid horse" or "He's stubborn" or "He gets excited". They never for one instant consider that every problem that horse has is rider error and by that point, the poor horse is usually beyond the point of no return. 

Not many people are concerned with learning how to be soft with their hands and those that aren't will always blame the horse or the bit for every problem they have. You teach softness by being soft. You maintain softness by being soft. There are certain times, especially when handling a green horse, that being hard for an instant is required but it takes someone who understands horses and knows softness to know how much 'hard' is required and when it will be beneficial to the horse. Many riders _should_ spend their lifetime riding with nothing more than a snaffle because they don't understand when, how, or why to use the bite that a curb bit has. Even fewer people have any business using a twisted wire bit for any reason. Those bits should be reserved for only the most experienced and talented horsemen to use on only the most outlaw horses and only for a few days to re-gain respect for the bit. They should never be used for everyday riding by your typical 'fun' rider, or even a competition rider. 

Many horses that end up hard due to improper riding can be re-trained to be soft-ish, however, they will never be as soft as a horse that was taught from the beginning to be responsive to the slightest cues. If you are having trouble at the lope or gallop, then it isn't a sudden problem just because of the change of gait. The issues are there at the walk and trot, they are just more subtle. Any gaps in training at the slower gaits will reveal themselves at speed.

No horse that got the proper training or riding _needs_ to be moved up from a snaffle. We, as riders, _choose_ to move to a different bit because of our preferances or training goals. I choose to ride in a ported curb because I ride one handed on a loose rein and a ported curb is designed for that, a snaffle is not. However, I can still stick any of my horses in a snaffle bit and they respond the same way. If I rode all my horses on light contact and direct reined, would I still use the curb? Absolutely not because it isn't designed for that and it is too much bit for that type of riding. The more advanced bits are designed for finesse, not power.

Anyone who says their horse _needs _to be in this special bit is just kidding themselves. The horse needs that bit because his training and handling dictates that the rider _needs_ that bit to communicate because their hands only know how to scream. They cannot understand the sublety of a whisper and as a result, their horse has learned to tune out all but the loudest of screams.

Are there horses out there that seem to be immune to the softness of the snaffle from day one? Of course, but those are _very_ rare and that immunity is generally paired with an outlaw nature that is dangerous to handle anyway. If a horse can be trained to accept a rider, then they can be trained to be soft to a snaffle bit.

Some horses misbehave in the bit due to a physical issue, whether it is a tooth problem or a nerve problem in their mouth or some other reason that carrying a bit would be painful. Some riders simply choose to ride bitless. Does that make them less knowledgeable or have a lower worth as a horseman than someone who rides in a bit? No. However, the bitless options out there are no different than the bit options. There are very mild choices like a simple halter or sidepull, there are more advanced options like the bosal, and then there are ridiculous options like those chain nosed mechanical hackamores. The same rules apply to those as they do to bits; stick with the mildest choice unless you need more finesse as the training level progresses.

To make a long story short, a bigger bit is designed to create finesse later in training, they are not meant to simply give a rider more power. A power struggle with a horse will always end up with the horse ruined and the rider frustrated and hateful.

Results come from what you put _in_ their head, 
not what you put _on_ it.


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## corinowalk

Well said! Love every word. I think people to often jump to the next bit up as a shortcut to good training. 

I also prefer to ride a curb. Only when the snaffle training is done. I have known too many people who jump them right to a curb looking for better brakes and lose the turn. A horse has to be taught to ride in a curb...the same as he is taught to be ridden in a snaffle. The two are only similar in the way that they are both bits. A snaffle and a leverage bit are WORLDS apart. I wish people would realize that.


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## Ray MacDonald

I didn't read your whole post (sorry) I have a headache (because I got bucked off today) and at the moment I would like to shove barbed wire in my horses mouth... I don't mean that but im cranky and sore ATM.. 

Anyway I had a question, not sure if anyone will understand this tho..

Q: With a snaffle wouldn't it be more painful that something like a french like bit? Since when you pull back the "nutcracker" thingy wouldn't it hit and put pressure in the roof of the mouth? I just always thought that...

But I do agree fully with what you are saying though


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## smrobs

Yes, a french link, dogbone, or even a myler type mouth would also be very nice mild options. However, it depends on what your horse prefers and the shape of their mouth. Some horses really hate tongue pressure and respond better in either a standard or a ported snaffle. Others have a low palate and prefer the more streamlined shape of the former types.

The most important thing about a snaffle is it has a 1:1 ratio. That means for every pound you exert on the reins, the horse feels a pound in his mouth. It is impossible to find anything milder than that. Plus the thing that makes it so simple is that it works on just the mouth. It is easier to communicate to a horse that is just learning. Once you add a shank, not only is it working on the mouth, but it is pressuring the curb and the poll too. That makes for more complicated signals and easier confusion.


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## Heartland

I agree with everything you've said. Recently I came under fire at a riding club meeting for riding my 10 year old QH gelding in a plain "O" ring snaffle bit. This gal is a "trainer", so therefor knows everything. She said if my horse wanted to, that he could run off with me. I reminded her that no bit can guarentee a horse to stop- that training does that, and hanging a bigger/heavier bit in a horse's face doesn't do anything but sweep the issue under the rug. That shut her up. 

ETA: For the record, my horse has never run off with me.


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## churumbeque

smrobs,
I ordered a bit from Mylar today after explaining the stage my horse is in of training.
The said about every horse goes into the combination bit which does put some pressure on the nose and I ordered the #4 mouth piece that is contoued and broken with lots of tongue relief. I did order the leather noseband instead of the harsher rawhide and the 3 ring shanks so I can use less leverage and have options for more leverage if needed. The last time I went to see him the trainer had him in a tomthumb and I rode him and had no handle on him we then switched to a mild gag and he was graet to ride. I have soft hands and will actually work on getting him to stop when I sit back after he gets home. I left him for another month and hopefully he has some more softness and more responsive. I had to order a bit before talking with the trainer as I need one by the end of the week so I can ride him as soon as I get him home.
What are your thoughts on this bit. It isn't shipping until Wed so I can change if needed although I have no idae what I would change to


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## wild_spot

^ Ray, a snaffle is ANY bit without any leverage, so a french like, mullen mouth, single joint - They are all snaffles, just different types. Yes, many people are moving away from the single joint snaffle nowadays because of the nutcracker action - But funnily enough, horses will always throw you, and there are some horses out there who really like their single joints and abhor any double jointed snaffle. It's all up to the individual horses preferences - Wether they prefer tongue pressure, bar pressure, or palate pressure - How their mouth is made up, etc.

And amen, Smrobs - You know I agree 100%. I am a staunch defender of the snaffle! though I really am trying to find a curb here that is similar to yours, and having a hard time!


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## wild_spot

Churumbeque,

I'll jump in as well.

A combination bit can be great for a lot of horses - It can also be very confusing for a lot of horses. It exerts pressure on every part of the face - The mouth, the nose, the chin, the poll. This can be too much for some sensitive horses, or can be ideal for horses who are too sensitive in the mouth.

If you do want to soften him up, I don't think the combination bit is the tool for the job. It is easiest and simplest to soften a horse up in a snaffle - As it sends very clear signals, and any release is communicated quickly and clearly to the mouth. It is harder to get a clear release with so many pressure points on a combination bit - And it is the release that teaches, not the pressure.

The combination bit may well work for him after you have softened him up and have him going well.


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## payette

Well said!!


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## smrobs

Thank you W_S. You took the words right out of my mouth regarding that bit. You saved me more typing.


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## churumbeque

wild_spot said:


> Churumbeque,
> 
> I'll jump in as well.
> 
> A combination bit can be great for a lot of horses - It can also be very confusing for a lot of horses. It exerts pressure on every part of the face - The mouth, the nose, the chin, the poll. This can be too much for some sensitive horses, or can be ideal for horses who are too sensitive in the mouth.
> 
> If you do want to soften him up, I don't think the combination bit is the tool for the job. It is easiest and simplest to soften a horse up in a snaffle - As it sends very clear signals, and any release is communicated quickly and clearly to the mouth. It is harder to get a clear release with so many pressure points on a combination bit - And it is the release that teaches, not the pressure.
> 
> The combination bit may well work for him after you have softened him up and have him going well.


He was being ridden in a snaffle by someone who didn't understand gaited horses and if he were a qtr hs he would have been fine but now I am trying to get a headset and break at the poll. When he was young at a trainer they had a bit in his mouth and it was 30 below. They said the corners of his mouth froze. This IDIOT is a well known gaited horse trainer also , so I am wondering if frost bite could be contributing to him not being as responsive as he should. He is very soft for flexing and such just not a good head set and as much handle with the snaffle


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## Poco1220

Thank you thank you thank you. I completely agree with using snaffles and even use one on my stallion. Let's face it if a horse doesn't wanna listen no amount of brute strength is gonna change it's mind lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stacieandtheboys

W_S

This is what smrobs suggested for me when I brought Lucy home from training with her http://www.horse.com/item/pinchless-...b-001b2166c62d It has worked wonderfully although I think we will need to go back to a snaffle for some more neck reining work for a while


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## Ray MacDonald

Thanks smrobs and wild_spot! oh soo full of knowledge!  And no one ever really explained The Snaffle to me  I'm kinda dumb lol

And I think my mare does pretty good in a snaffle (she has a rubber coated D ring and just a O ring snaffle) And Duckie (the one who bucked me off) has a Dr. Bristle and usually I only need to use kinda light pressure with him.


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## wild_spot

> He was being ridden in a snaffle by someone who didn't understand gaited horses and if he were a qtr hs he would have been fine but now I am trying to get a headset and break at the poll. When he was young at a trainer they had a bit in his mouth and it was 30 below. They said the corners of his mouth froze. This IDIOT is a well known gaited horse trainer also , so I am wondering if frost bite could be contributing to him not being as responsive as he should. He is very soft for flexing and such just not a good head set and as much handle with the snaffle


First I want to say - A horse is a horse. There may be differences in carriage between gaited and non gaited, but there is differences in carriage between a QH and Arab, too. 

Frostbite on the lips could definitely have created a lack of feeling in the lips. If that is the case, then throw traditional bitting ideas out the window. Give him a god in the combination bit, and see how he likes it. However if you are trying to create a higher, tucked headset like most show gaited horses - It may not be the best bit for it. Poll pressure tends to encourage a lower headset, whereas with a snaffle only contacting the mouth, you can adjust from a super low headset, to a deep one, to a high one.


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## smrobs

Since he might have the issue with his lips and/or bars due to trauma, he may be one of those horses that goes well with tongue pressure. Maybe some type of bit with a mullen or straight mouth?


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## wild_spot

^ Good idea - And if he doesn't like that, you could go the other way and try palate pressure with a high ported bit.


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## boxer

fantastic post smrobs!!!! I agree completely and can't add a thing! This thread should be pinned I reckon!


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## churumbeque

smrobs said:


> Since he might have the issue with his lips and/or bars due to trauma, he may be one of those horses that goes well with tongue pressure. Maybe some type of bit with a mullen or straight mouth?


 Trial and error does get expensive. I will start with the combination since it has several adjustments and I can add and relieve pressure in different areas. He did ride well with a gag and this is a version of that. It's also hard when you are on a time frame and the person training the horse is not available to answer some simple questions to help me determine a direction. I am picking the horse up this week and will know more later.


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## churumbeque

wild_spot said:


> First I want to say - A horse is a horse. There may be differences in carriage between gaited and non gaited, but there is differences in carriage between a QH and Arab, too.
> 
> Frostbite on the lips could definitely have created a lack of feeling in the lips. If that is the case, then throw traditional bitting ideas out the window. Give him a god in the combination bit, and see how he likes it. However if you are trying to create a higher, tucked headset like most show gaited horses - It may not be the best bit for it. Poll pressure tends to encourage a lower headset, whereas with a snaffle only contacting the mouth, you can adjust from a super low headset, to a deep one, to a high one.


A horse is a horse but you ride a gaited horse totally different than the qtr hs frame and more contact. This bit can adjust to get there head up and break at the poll


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## churumbeque

I'd be happy with this frame. He is not built to tuck his nose in and he felt good here.


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## mom2pride

Thank you Smrobs...very useful post  

It's funny, because I tried a mild curb on my mare this morning, and she didn't seem to care for it at all...she was tense, and 'hyped' up. I don't know if it has anything to do with how she was ridden prior to me acquiring her, but definitely confirmed to me that she is not ready for one yet, either. She responds very well in a French Link Full cheek, and I've been riding her lately in a D-Ring, and she likes that too. Now if this was 10 years ago, I probably would have wigged out, and thought OMG she needs a harsher bit...now on the contrary, I feel a horse needs to go back down to a snaffle when they aren't responsive to a curb. Funny how time, and education teach you much needed stuff.


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## smrobs

Yep, I went through that with one of my green horses just this summer. She had been ridden before (and had some horrible habits because of it) so I progressed her a bit quickly up into the curb. I mean, after all, she did have 30 days "professional" training on her already *eyeroll*. I rode her in that for about 5 minutes before I decided that she wasn't anywhere near ready for that so back down to the snaffle she went. After a few more rides in the snaffle, I felt she was ready and transitioned her up again and it went off without a hitch. Nice and soft, responsive to the flick of a rein, and relaxed.


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## smrobs

Churum, he looks good there. He is relaxed but attentive and seems to be moving out nicely. I wasn't suggesting that you start buying all different kinds of bits to see which one works. By all means, give him a shot with the one you were planning on first and see how it goes. I hope it works well for both of you. I was just kinda brainstorming on what else might be an option if nothing else works.


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## mom2pride

smrobs said:


> Yep, I went through that with one of my green horses just this summer. She had been ridden before (and had some horrible habits because of it) so I progressed her a bit quickly up into the curb. I mean, after all, she did have 30 days "professional" training on her already *eyeroll*. I rode her in that for about 5 minutes before I decided that she wasn't anywhere near ready for that so back down to the snaffle she went. After a few more rides in the snaffle, I felt she was ready and transitioned her up again and it went off without a hitch. Nice and soft, responsive to the flick of a rein, and relaxed.


Glad I'm not the only one who's had that problem! She is SOOOO calm and relaxed with the snaffles, and although she started out calm with the curb, she quickly seemed to get confused, which upset her more...so back to the snaffle, and she was fine. I don't show in 'upper level' shows, so I really don't care if she ever transitions back to a curb; of course I will keep trying down the road, but I don't necessarily need it for gymkhana, or trail riding, ya know? She goes bitless, as well.


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## churumbeque

smrobs said:


> Churum, he looks good there. He is relaxed but attentive and seems to be moving out nicely. I wasn't suggesting that you start buying all different kinds of bits to see which one works. By all means, give him a shot with the one you were planning on first and see how it goes. I hope it works well for both of you. I was just kinda brainstorming on what else might be an option if nothing else works.


Unfortunatley to try em ya gotta buy em. The trainer FINALLY called me back just now and said he is still in the gag bit and will have an answer for me this week when I come to get him. I am not one to wait untill the last minute so I am a little concerned.


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## RadHenry09

stacieandtheboys said:


> W_S
> 
> This is what smrobs suggested for me when I brought Lucy home from training with her http://www.horse.com/item/pinchless-...b-001b2166c62d It has worked wonderfully although I think we will need to go back to a snaffle for some more neck reining work for a while


 
This link doesnt work for me with I click on it , any way to show it and where to buy one? 
thanks


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## smrobs

Here, let me try. Also, don't let the low price tag shock you. The most I have paid for a bit of this type is $25 and I have never been disappointed by it's quality.

Pinchless Low Port Reining Bit - Statelinetack.com


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## RadHenry09

Thanks very much, I still have been searching for a shank bit. Both of my horses are ridden in full cheek snaffles. I wouldn't change them except they need a shank bit to be ridden in 4H shows.
I dont want to get off the subject of the thread but I am seriously thinking about buying this.
I have a TT, I do not want to use it!


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## stacieandtheboys

Yep that is it. Got mine here at Pinchless Low Port Reining Bit - Horse.com

Same price and nice quality. We don't show or anything like that so there is not need to go out and pay $50 somewhere else for practically the same bit.


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## wild_spot

I can't find the exact same bit anywhere in AUS and it is really frustrating. This is the closest i've found but the port is very abrupt and it has no copper in the mouthpiece:


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## paddlefoot

Good post. Seems like people on here want help, but don't like to hear good advice.


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## sarahver

smrobs said:


> Results come from what you put _in_ their head,
> not what you put _on_ it.


I think this is my favourite quote from this forum so far, thank you Smrobs.

Great thread and very well written, please bookmark it for future questions related to bits as it can get very tiring explaining over and over that a different bit can not replace effective training.


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## MIEventer

Great post Smrobs!


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## azarni

Amen to that, smrobs! I know people who use harsh bits, and some of them don't even know why! I've asked why they don't use a snaffle and their only reasoning is that they 'like this one better'.


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## riccil0ve

Great post, smrobs!

I ride my mare in a kimberwick because it's what she likes. She doesn't like broken bits, and she prefers a nice port. Can I ride her successfully in a snaffle? Yes, but it's not the same. She's just not as happy or comfortable with it. But I certainly don't need the leverage, the reins are purely decorative. Granted, I haven't tried everything, just a few bits, and this is what she prefers as of now.

I have Gracie in a french link D ring. It's what she'll stay in until she's ready to move up. I put a lot of thought into what to start her in, because I had seen so often that people prefer to start in curbs. And now, I wouldn't think twice.

You are right, so many people over-bit their horse. Heck, I even am. But at least I have the hands for it to work, and I have a valid reason. You don't need your reins to stop a properly trained horse, and I don't need my kimberwick to stop mine.

I have a friend who has her horse in a very, very harsh bit. So harsh a bit that this mare has actually lacerated her tongue pretty severely. And it's all because she won't be patient enough to teach her mare how to respond in a nicer bit at a walk only. She wants to trot and canter and jump, instead of taking the time to just work with her. It makes me nauseous.


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## Scoutrider

Well said, Smrobs!!

Just this past week was our local county fair, including the annual Wednesday night fun show for the 4-H saddle horse kids. Basically a gymkhana-type affair; poles, barrels, ride-a-buck, egg & spoon, etc.

One rider was a girl in my own 4-H club. She rides a tall sweetheart of a QH mare, still relatively young but older than the curb requirement for WP. She games in a snaffle, and does well; timing in the ribbons and with good control in a full-cheek every run.

Wednesday night the horse was hot, and ran through her bit. Zero turn, zero stop, thankfully no bucking. The girl got her stopped, and a slew of other gamers' parents ran up to her explaining how it was stupid to ride in a snaffle and she needed this bit and that bit and this wad of chain through the horse's mouth. Not one thing was said to her about simply giving this very forward mare a refresher course in brakes in the bit that she has once the mare had calmed down. :roll:

Personally, I ride my guy in a snaffle. He isn't introduced to a curb yet, but as a matter of giving him a full education I do plan to when he is ready. I look at gaming as I do foxhunting - a situation where I might overbit for the event as a matter of safety in chaos.


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## Stillstandin

Great post. I had just come inside from discussing this exact same thing with the young guy who is currently working with some horses for my father. I am printing it out.


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## Azale1

I have to agree. Snaffle's are the best bit to go with. I hate the fact that many show circuits have regulations as to what bit you must show in at what age. I think a snaffle should suffice no matter what the age be it 3 or 20. I have always been a snaffle user and never will go with anything else. I recently did change my mare's bit though from a normal D snaffle with copper to a double jointed full cheek with copper roll. Hoping she will do well with it. She seems to be rather resistant and flings her head quite a bit which leads me to believe she needs some tongue relief. No bit whether mild or harsh is going to control a horse or solve any problems. Only cover them up for a short period till the horse begins the same problem again.


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## Oakley Eastern Miss

Very informative post.

I have always used a snaffle on my mare and I wouldn't change it. Occasionally she can get a bit excitable but never to the point where I completely lose control, and she can be stubborn when it comes to working in an outline when she doesn't want to. However, I know that these minor problems are what I need to focus on and her responsiveness is down to _my_ signalling issues. No bit is going to change that. 

In some cases I think this point extends to more than just the bit. I do see horses with flashes, martingales and all the bridle accessories that I suspect aren't even needed. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they are there purely for show, but thats just my two cents.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Fantastic post as usual smrobs!

I find it hilarious that harsh bits are associated with gaming - I am as game to graduate to curb as the next person, but I firmly believe you SHOULD game in a snaffle. I don't care how well trained your barrel racer is, I see SO few pics of them actually NECK reining these horses as opposed to cranking the shank sideways in some mutated yank. For high speed precision like that, I want to be able to haul up my reins and give that fine tuned nose tip where it needs to be. I don't think there's any other explanation for me and Shay-la waltzing into the ring and robbing so many ribbons on completely untrained horses in matching french link snaffles! :lol: And in youth, the young lady riding her Arab English swept away most of the competition - his cues were so refined from being an English pony, she didn't waste any time with runaways or not being able to stop him! It's VERY rare I EVER see a horse being ridden correctly in a curb, especially in a gaming ring.

Jynx is going in a D-ring french link snaffle right now, and it's where she'll stay until her neck reining and the rest of her cues are top notch. Really, I haven't graduated many horses to curbs over the years, between my yo-yoing between English and Western, and not really showing, snaffles have always suited my purpose.


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## Arksly

The only time I have used anything harsher than a snaffle on Jesse was when I started riding him (I used a kimberwick). I was very little and he was very big. But, he told me when he thought I should move to a snaffle. I was riding along and he curled up and just cantered in a circle. We must have done 30 circles then I slipped off. I got back on and he was fine. We changed back to the snaffle and he has been fine ever since.


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## Sunny

MM, I, too, have always been dumbfounded at the intense curbs and wonder bits in gaming. It's been years since I showed Western, but now that I think back....I don't recall a single snaffle. It's truly quite sad. Wonderful post, Smrobs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## draftrider

Thanks Smrobs!!!

I have a big pile of bits and bridles, probably 30 different kinds of bits. I only use one- a full cheek snaffle with a copper mouth. In fact I love it so much I bought another so that a friend and I can go riding together.


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## corinowalk

That sounds like a wonderful combo draftrider...where did you get it?


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## BarrelracingArabian

i agree, but i have a question. 
i am riding an arabian gelding whom has been thrown around on mega huge bits until i started riding him again and put him in a tom thumb, he is super resposive to this he flexes at the poll, stops, backs, has great turns and i can do all that with minimal pressure but im afraid to go down to a snaffle do you think he would have an issue with it. He has had history with running away with riders but i have had the problem yet.


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## Cougar

draftrider said:


> Thanks Smrobs!!!
> 
> I have a big pile of bits and bridles, probably 30 different kinds of bits. I only use one- a full cheek snaffle with a copper mouth. In fact I love it so much I bought another so that a friend and I can go riding together.


Me too. I was given one with my pony 11 years ago when I got her and bought four more over the years because it seems to be the most agreeable bit with all the different horses coming through. Cougar was going in a loose ring but I lost that bridle in a move and put him back in a full cheek. He's never ridden nicer.


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## RedTree

that was sooo informative 
Thanks so much smorbs I don't think I will ever use any thing beside a snaffle as I don't want to cause more harm then good


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## Scoutrider

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I find it hilarious that harsh bits are associated with gaming - I am as game to graduate to curb as the next person, but I firmly believe you SHOULD game in a snaffle. * I don't care how well trained your barrel racer is, I see SO few pics of them actually NECK reining these horses as opposed to cranking the shank sideways in some mutated yank.* For high speed precision like that, I want to be able to haul up my reins and give that fine tuned nose tip where it needs to be. I don't think there's any other explanation for me and Shay-la waltzing into the ring and robbing so many ribbons on completely untrained horses in matching french link snaffles! :lol: And in youth, the young lady riding her Arab English swept away most of the competition - his cues were so refined from being an English pony, she didn't waste any time with runaways or not being able to stop him!* It's VERY rare I EVER see a horse being ridden correctly in a curb, especially in a gaming ring.*


I see the exact same thing, MM. One gal, also in 4-H, very consistently places first or second in every speed event that a given show offers. Her horse is lightning fast, loves to run, and knows the patterns. She doesn't use a whip, quirt, or over/under. Almost every year she buys a bigger bit, and her dad must stand at the in-gate and yell at the horse to stop as he runs home to keep him from crashing it. He's dented several gates in local show rings, and they've received warnings from rodeos to deal with the problem or not come back next year. :shock: Once the horse is moving, his brakes are gone. I do believe that her current bit is like a cross between a wonder bit and a mechanical hack with a twisted mouth, ridden two handed. Not sure where you go up to from there... Horse's mouth is perpetually wide open, and would be sky high if not for the tie-down. 

I don't game much, at least not competitively. I'm no daredevil and have no desire to become one. My sister does about every discipline out there except for "D" Dressage and saddle seat, and generally places well when she does run poles or barrels purely because of the pleasure miles that her horse has under him. Even though his actual times are a bit slower, they ribbon because they left the course intact. :lol:

So many people think gaming is all about speed; true, trained brakes and steering take a surprisingly distant backburner for a sport that is all about precision and control.


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## Deerly

D-Link snaffle for me  The bit my horse came with was not too pleasant and I can't understand why. He does JUST fine in a d-link. He's green and needs more training but it's not the BIT's fault and I would never dream of getting anything harsher.


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## nrhareiner

My horses will respond to any bit I put in their mouth or no bit at all.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Scoutrider said:


> I see the exact same thing, MM. One gal, also in 4-H, very consistently places first or second in every speed event that a given show offers. Her horse is lightning fast, loves to run, and knows the patterns. She doesn't use a whip, quirt, or over/under. Almost every year she buys a bigger bit, and her dad must stand at the in-gate and yell at the horse to stop as he runs home to keep him from crashing it. He's dented several gates in local show rings, and they've received warnings from rodeos to deal with the problem or not come back next year. :shock: Once the horse is moving, his brakes are gone. I do believe that her current bit is like a cross between a wonder bit and a mechanical hack with a twisted mouth, ridden two handed. Not sure where you go up to from there... Horse's mouth is perpetually wide open, and would be sky high if not for the tie-down.
> 
> I don't game much, at least not competitively. I'm no daredevil and have no desire to become one. My sister does about every discipline out there except for "D" Dressage and saddle seat, and generally places well when she does run poles or barrels purely because of the pleasure miles that her horse has under him. Even though his actual times are a bit slower, they ribbon because they left the course intact. :lol:
> 
> So many people think gaming is all about speed; true, trained brakes and steering take a surprisingly distant backburner for a sport that is all about precision and control.


So true. We won the flag race at a TROT. We were there to have fun, and having a drive to keep my horse sane and happy as opposed to win ironically landed us in the winner's circle - multiple times. The QH were beating us for speed, but what is speed when your horse won't bring you within ten feet of the flag or just knocks the poles over?

It was also ridiculous how many gapped mouths I saw, and the sad part being a lot of the horses there were reiners. They all had massive bits on and virtually no control to be had. I expect it from the gamers but the reiners disappointed me - gaming should be something you do on a FINISHED reiner, not something you throw your green 3 year old at and expect him to understand your precise cues at high speed with a mouthful of metal.


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## smrobs

BarrelracingArabian said:


> i agree, but i have a question.
> i am riding an arabian gelding whom has been thrown around on mega huge bits until i started riding him again and put him in a tom thumb, he is super resposive to this he flexes at the poll, stops, backs, has great turns and i can do all that with minimal pressure but im afraid to go down to a snaffle do you think he would have an issue with it. He has had history with running away with riders but i have had the problem yet.


If he is responding nicely to the cues you give now but you would like to try him in a simple snaffle, then go for it. Just make sure that you do the first few rides in a nice controlled area like a roundpen or arena were he cannot run completely away with you (if he decides to even try). You are no doubt familiar with the one rein stop so you wouldn't lose control of him anyway. The only way to really know is just to give it a shot and see what happens.


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## BarrelracingArabian

smrobs-alright :] thanks for the advice just thought i would ask


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## mom2pride

draftrider said:


> Thanks Smrobs!!!
> 
> I have a big pile of bits and bridles, probably 30 different kinds of bits. I only use one- a full cheek snaffle with a copper mouth. In fact I love it so much I bought another so that a friend and I can go riding together.


Hahaha...I AM the same way! I have tons of bits, and I find myself using one French Link Full cheek snaffle, a D-Ring, and an O Ring...Lol! My mare seems to like the D the best so far. I toss a snaffle in any horse I train or retrain, and especially out in AZ where I was last year, people seemed to think I was nuts, or some kind of goddess because I could ride in such a simple bit...:shock::lol:


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## draftrider

corinowalk said:


> That sounds like a wonderful combo draftrider...where did you get it?


Local feed store. I think it is a Weaver bit. I will check and see exactly what it is tomorrow. =)


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## kevinshorses

churumbeque said:


> I'd be happy with this frame. He is not built to tuck his nose in and he felt good here.


ANY horse can break at the poll. The horse in this picture is still hollow in the back and could benefit from more work on collection. The hind leg is not reaching as far underneath as it could be if his back was more rounded.

To get softness in a horse you can't always use softness. To develop responsiveness you have to have to give a full release at the right time regardless of the amount of pressure applied. "Soft" hands not coupled with a complete and well timed release will result in a horse that gets tired of being nagged and ignores the rider just as much as if the rider used too much force.


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## africanstardust

Okay, so...question from a riding newbie. What would be the best way to train myself to be more soft in the hands? I've been working on it as best I can, and it's gotten much better (from me not being able to control the horse at all and him taking off at a gallop to me keeping him at a trot in the arena) but I feel I'm missing something. Or maybe I'm just being impatient and it takes more time  The horse has been great and VERY patient with me, because he's a schoolie and is by no means green, but I wish there was more I could do to make my hands gentler. Any suggestions? (Sorry, I don't mean to take over the thread, but I thought others might benefit from this as well.)


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## smrobs

Not a problem at all. It takes time to develop that feel so you know exactly how much pressure you have on the bit and if it is too much or not enough. Quiet hands are the most important thing, make sure you aren't bumping the horse in the mouth, keep your shoulders and elbows fluid so that when you feel the pressure building in your fingertips, you can immediately reach out to loosen the pressure. I don't know how everyone else holds their reins, but I have found that it is easier for me to be soft when I have my reins closer to my fingertips, just about right on that middle joint of your fingers, and have them in kind-of a firm but relaxed grip rather than have my hand in a fist around them. Other than that, just stay aware of everything the reins are doing in your hands and the horse is doing with his head. Focus on trying to use as little force as necessary on the reins to get the response and use escalating pressure. Tons and tons of practice and keeping it always in the back of your mind are the best way. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have someone there like an instructor or a very knowledgeable person to correct you when you tighten up and don't realize it.


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## africanstardust

Cool, thank you 

I do have an instructor once a week, but I ride on my own the rest of the time, so keeping these things in mind will help. I think the main thing I need to work on is releasing quicker after he does what I want him to; sometimes I'm a little slow.

*hands thread back*


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## smrobs

Yep, that timing comes with practice. I didn't start getting really good about the release until I was in my mid/late teens (had been riding for 10 or 12 years). Even now, I am still a bit slow occasionally but one good thing about having horses is that you never stop learning and improving if that's what you want to do.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Great read all the way through. If you don't mind Smrobs, I'd like to email this to some people I know.


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## gypsygirl

I was actually just told by a popular dressage trainer in my area that I have to change my mares bit. Why ? Because happy mouth bits make horses dull and heavy apparently....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

MNT, I don't mind at all. E-mail away.

Gypsy, I can't speak much about happy mouth bits as I have never even held one, let alone used one. With the proper training, though, it shouldn't have any different results. The only problem that might pop up with those is that it might mute some of the more subtle cues that are felt in metal but lost in plastic/rubber. Though I can't really be sure.


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## horseservant

I have to tell you what I discovered a couple of weeks ago. I went to this garage sale and saw this woman had that completely awful hybrid bit which is a kimblewick but instead of a port it had a snaffle link. In some ways it was fortunate that she didn't know how it was supposed to work.The curb chain hooks were missing from the holes. She had the reins on the cheekpiece rings and the cheekpieces coming out of the bottom rein slots (now top). I asked if the bit or bridle were for sale( because I was going to take the awful bit home and destroy it). She said no she rides her horse in it. I said 'do you know this bit is upside down?' She didn't believe me. When I persisted she said 'I have a fyord and he doesn't care what is in his mouth'. I tried to show her how the bit was milled to sit in the mouth just one way but she wasn't having any of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tymer

I have to say I agree, but many people know well I am stuck in a situation where I do not have control over the bitting of the horses I ride despite the fact that I hate it.
One thing does bother me. Today I went to a horse show and I saw a long lost friend who had become snooty thanks to being on her fancy horses that she clearly rides so much better because they cost more. The first thing she said to me was "Hey! Wow...You've really become cruel. You're using a gag? You're a horrible person." I proceeded to tell her that it wasn't my choice. She persisted, telling me how much better she was as a rider because she used a plain snaffle. I wanted to tell her how badly I wanted to train my horse to go in a french link, but she simply walked away...Rather snootily. When she was warming up her horse, it wouldn't listen to her one bit. Does she know that you still have to train horses to get them to listen? I commend her on not resorting to a harsher bit to solve her problems, but at least TRAIN your horse once you do!
I'm in a pretty sour mood because of this and the show getting rained out, I don't want to rain (no pun intended?) on your little snaffle parade. People bashing gags all the time gets me down a little, so I thought I'd share my side. 

...In no way do I encourage anyone to disregard this thread. It is a lovely post.


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## Sunny

^ The reason people "bash" gags and other strong bits is because many people use them to cover up training problems, or don't use them properly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Exactly. I wasn't bashing all bits, just stating that something harsher than a snaffle only has it's place in the hands of someone who actually knows how and why to use it.


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## Tymer

smrobs said:


> Exactly. I wasn't bashing all bits, just stating that something harsher than a snaffle only has it's place in the hands of someone who actually knows how and why to use it.


I was trying not to insinuate that you were, though often people promoting snaffles turns into that.


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## BitlessForHappiness

My username is kind of a disclaimer but...I've noticed horses make a HUGE change after the bit comes out of their mouth. Have any of you people having issues with horses responding tried a well placed hackamore? The horse calms down and is more willing. They actually THINK and have to make decisions as opposed to react to a yanking on their mouth. Just something to think about.


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## Solon

That's not true for all horses Bitless. I have my boy in a bitless for the majority of the time. However, not all horses will work well without a bit. Don't make a claim that everyone that uses a bit is 'yanking on their mouth' because that isn't the case.


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## BitlessForHappiness

Solon said:


> That's not true for all horses Bitless. I have my boy in a bitless for the majority of the time. However, not all horses will work well without a bit. Don't make a claim that everyone that uses a bit is 'yanking on their mouth' because that isn't the case.


That was a bad choice of words. I was referring to the first post talking about "heavy hands" and how that's important to consider when you're picking a bit. But when you say not all horses, do you mean on the first try, or after a while of work. I just want to understand others' points of view.


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## Solon

Not all horses after a while of work. Some horses just flat out prefer a bit. And I am all for bitless, but if my horse wanted a bit all the time, that is what he would get.


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## smrobs

The only problem is that bitless isn't a cure for bad hands, only education and practice can change that. A horse is just as uncomfortable with someone yanking on his nose as he is with someone yanking on his mouth.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Hackamores can be extremely rough on a horse if the rider has hard hands. As Solon and Smrobs said too, not all horses like bitless options. It really depends on what kind of pressure your horse prefers. Some really dislike pressure on their face, others on their tongue, others on the poll. 

Any good owner will take the time to figure out what works for their horse and not rely on some dogma be it bitless, snaffle, or curb.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Hackamores can be extremely rough on a horse if the rider has hard hands. As Solon and Smrobs said too, not all horses like bitless options. It really depends on what kind of pressure your horse prefers. Some really dislike pressure on their face, others on their tongue, others on the poll.
> 
> *Any good owner will take the time to figure out what works for their horse and not rely on some dogma be it bitless, snaffle, or curb*.


Well said! I've used a french link snaffle with my green mare for over a year now, and we CANNOT get her to stop hanging on it...even when you ask and then release, she follows your release down and hangs...she will quite literally pull you out of the tack! Even my trainer, who is well respected and has YEARS of experience training people AND horses, was having trouble with her in a snaffle. We tried a figure 8 bridle before going to another bit, and my horse HATED it!! Threw her head around, made a fuss and ran around more on the forehand than ever. I was feeling pretty defeated because all of my friends used figure 8's and they did wonders for their horses. 

So my trainer wanted to give a curb bit a try...we used a double jointed, same thing as the french link, but it was a tom thumb pelham. IT WAS AMAZING! At first, she started to do her same old hanging, but with the use of the curb, she basically "corrected herself" into stopping it. After a few minutes, it became evident that she really liked the bit...she was licking and chewing and a little foamy, she stopped hanging and started to transition back onto her rear, and I got on after my trainer worked her and OH MAN it felt like I was riding a different mare!!! She was light in my hands, balanced, and she seemed HAPPIER!  

That continues to be my experience with her, and my trainer plans to put her back into a french link snaffle again in the future, once we can get her to understand her "job" and that she should be back on her rear and not on the forehand pulling the rider out of the seat. It's been a wonderful tool for us and one that my horse has really been happy with, so I definitely agree that it's all about what your horse prefers and goes well in...not all curb bits are "evil" and not every horse is happy in a snaffle bit.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

That said, I definitely think you should consult a trained professional before switching to any of the "more severe" bits...in the wrong hands, those can certainly cause more harm than good.


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## dee

I'm really not trying to hijack this thread, but I do have a couple of bit questions.

On my old mare, Sugar, I used a "racing snaffle," which was basically a regular snaffle bit that had largish rubber covers over the bit - but it was still jointed. some of my friends that had been riding and training horses for years were a little concerned at first that it was not enough bit for her, as she could be pretty stubborn at times. However, if I used any other bit, she was an impossible witch - head tossing, bucking - you name it, she did it. Same thing with a hackamore, so a racing snaffle it was. However, I was told she "carried" the bit, and I was lucky she didn't run off with me.

What did they mean by "carrying the bit?" In all honesty, I'm a terrible rider, and learned the hard way to stay off her mouth. It did teach me to have softish hands, and even though I rode in the racing snaffle, I rode with a loose rein, and Sugar neckreined very well. Almost too well, sometimes it seemed that if I just thought about a change in direction, she did it - almost like she had power steering...

Dancer is shaping up to be just like Sugar was - at least so far. However, she seems to go well in a hackamore - but we haven't really ridden her enough to tell. I don't want to go with a harsh bit - a snaffle is fine with me. But is/was that racing snaffle a harsh bit? I sure wish I could find that bit again. I found my old one, but after nearly 20 years, so had the rats... :-(


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## smrobs

Was it something similar to this?
Flexi Racing Dee Snaffle Bit, Flexi Racing Bits and Dee Snaffle Bit

If so, then no it wasn't a harsh bit. From looking at what is sold on the net as racing snaffles, they all seem to be fairly mild with large diameter mouths. I believe that is probably because racehorses are trained to push into the bit for balance (or something LOL) and a bigger diameter is nicer on their mouth. However, the bigger diameter can also lose some of the more subtle cues and since it is a milder bit, makes it more likely that the horse would be able to ignore it. Most times, a horse that carries the bit kinda braces their tongue against the bit so that it doesn't really effect the bars of the mouth (vaqueros spend years teaching a horse to carry the spade bit in just that manner) but on a horse that isn't taught to be responsive in this state finds it easy to use this to render the bit ineffective. I actually prefer a horse that will carry the bit instead of just pack it because they are more aware of the smaller movements of my hands.


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## dee

No, that's not like the one I had. It was an "O" ring and had REALLY large rubber covers on the bit. Nearly as thick as my thumb. 

Sugar was very responsive to riding cues. She would change gaits depending on where you held the reins, the higher you lifted them, the faster she went. (Needless to say, I spent most of my riding time with my hand resting on the saddle horn as we moped along. Bad riding habit, but oh well, I wasn't showing or anything.) Drop the reins and she stopped dead. It was really odd the way she was. The only time I had a problem with her blowing through the bit, she was just in a really bad mood. She would respond to the one rein stop, but that was back before I had heard it called that. I was just told to pull the inside rein when she misbehaved like that, so she would circle around.


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## smrobs

Aha!!
Soft Rubber Loose Ring Snaffle Bit|Rubber Bits|Loose Ring Bits|Snaffle Bits|Horse Bits|Bits
Really mild bit . LOL, gotta love those quirky horses.


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## dee

smrobs said:


> Aha!!
> Soft Rubber Loose Ring Snaffle Bit|Rubber Bits|Loose Ring Bits|Snaffle Bits|Horse Bits|Bits
> Really mild bit . LOL, gotta love those quirky horses.


That's pretty much like it. OMG that price has gone up! I paid $5 for the two I had.

I used to think Sugar was quirky...Then I met Dancer!


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## BitlessForHappiness

I agree. But I still maintain that going bitless and eventually progressing to a jumping hackamore (pretty much a basic English bridle with the bit taken out, and a slightly more substantial noseband) is something everyone should give a shot. If it doesn't work, oh well. But it's amazing the difference it makes.


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## nrhareiner

First a well trained horse it does not matter what bit you put in their mouth they should respond in kind. I bitless bridle is not an option for nor would I use one if it was. 

It does not matter what you put on your horse from bittless bridle, snaffle to a cathedral port shank bit they can all be very harsh bits. Does not matter. It is all in the hands of the rider.


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## MN Tigerstripes

BitlessForHappiness said:


> But it's amazing the difference it makes.


 
This is the statement that I always have a problem with. It should say "But it's amazing the difference it CAN make." 

I've tried the bitless route with my horse and he highly disliked it. So much that he actually injured himself because he was concentrating on how much he disliked the face pressure. 

Soda is ridden in a french link snaffle and I rarely put anything but the softest pressure on it. I'm not a perfect rider but I'm well aware of the impact of my hands and their place in the cycle of asking for a response. I'm not a hard handed rider in a snaffle, curb, or bitless but my horse has shown me that he doesn't like the bitless route. 

Granted I was using the Dr. Cook bridle and it may be that that particular mechanism is what he has a problem with. It's possible that he may be completely happy with a bosal, hackamore, or a simple sidepull. But he's also perfectly happy in his simple french link. I'd know it if he wasn't, he's a tempermental sensitive boy and he lets you know very quickly when he doesn't like what you're doing. I joke with my friends sometimes that he's training me more than I'm training him. :lol:

Either which way he will be tried out and trained in (if he doesn't show extreme dislike or discomfort) in a bosal, curb, and sidepull. But for now he's happy and I'm getting my point across in a gentle teaching manner so it works for us. 

Sorry if I'm hammering on this point too much, but it's a pet peeve of mine how someone (not specifically you Bitless) can be so adamant that one way is the "one true path." Especially with something as individual as a horse's preference. *steps off pedastal*


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Sorry if I'm hammering on this point too much, but it's a pet peeve of mine how someone (not specifically you Bitless) can be so adamant that one way is the "one true path." Especially with something as individual as a horse's preference. *steps off pedastal*


That is SO TRUE about so many things, and with so many people in the horse world I am finding out unfortunately...some people just have a VERY strong opinion and believe that theirs is the only "right" way and everyone else is misinformed :roll:


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## BitlessForHappiness

I understand that. I'm more meaning the horses that are always throwing their heads and swishing tails and "misbehaving". I didn't mean to gear it towards anyone, just suggest it.


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## ruger

If you have bonded well with your horse, a halter should be all you need.


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## nrhareiner

ruger said:


> If you have bonded well with your horse, a halter should be all you need.



Has nothing to do with bonding with your horse. It is called training. I can drop bridle on my horses and run a full reining pattern. WHy? B/C they are well trained horses. Does not matter what I put in their mouth. Rules dictate what can and can not be used. So that is what I have hanging in my tack room. Haters are not allowed.


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## smrobs

A bond has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's about refinement. You can't get that in a halter.


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## Solon

That's kind of not true though - I had to train my boy in a halter because I could find a headstall big enough to fit his head. He was so responsive it was amazing. I don't think that would be the case for all horses, so that's why I say it's partially not true!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Yeah I can ride Soda just fine in a halter, but it's frustrating for HIM to try and learn the tiny distinctions that distinguish a well-trained horse from a plod in it. A halter doesn't allow you to explain the minute directions in specific maneuvers. I can teach him something much quicker with a bit that allows him to understand my smallest nuance than a halter that allows very little room for the subtle signal. I know he appreciates it as he's not a terribly paitent boy. 

As for that whole bond thing. Soda seeks me out every single day whenever I'm in the paddock or pasture. This is a horse that sees me letting the dogs out of the kennel and will sit and whinny for me to come hang out with him. He whickers every morning and evening when I feed. In the afternoon when I'm working on barn projects in the paddock or just relaxing reading a book (yes, I'm pathetic I sit in my paddock and read books) he comes and stands by me and lips my books. He'll sit with me for hours. Don't tell me that I need a better bond with my horse because I don't train/ride him exclusively in a halter.


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## MN Tigerstripes

No offense intended by my post Solon, we posted at the same time.


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## Solon

Like I said, I really think different horses respond differently. I taught everything in the halter first (bending at the poll etc.) then found a bit, then found Dr. Cook's bitless. 

I think it's too bad there are restrictions on what kind of bits you have to have to show in different areas. People should be able to use whatever works for their horse.


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## MN Tigerstripes

I agree completely with that. I understand were it comes from, but I think it's a little ridiculous to be honest.


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## Solon

I know there are a lot of groups trying to get the restrictions changed (many to allow the use of bitless).


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## MN Tigerstripes

That would be nice. I've got a couple of friends that ride their horses bitless (3 bosals and 2 Dr. Cooks). The horses love it and are really well trained. I don't see why they should be excluded from a competion because of a horse' preference. Both of these ladies have other horse that are not ridden bitless, but they've gone with what each horse is most comfortable with.


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## ruger

smrobs said:


> A bond has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's about refinement. You can't get that in a halter.


What if you put thumb tacks on your halter or on your reins?


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## Solon

I know Dr. Cook has made some strides within the racing community. I think eventually people will come to see there isn't any reason for bit restrictions.


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## Solon

ruger said:


> What if you put thumb tacks on your halter?


It's not necessary to do that.


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## ruger

Solon said:


> It's not necessary to do that.


Not unless you want be competitive.


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## nrhareiner

ruger said:


> Not unless you want be competitive.


If you want to be competitive you would not be using a halter. Halters are not made to be bridles. They are made to lead horses and tie them.


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## corinowalk

Whats worse...a bit or thumb tacks in your face?


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## Solon

ruger said:


> Not unless you want be competitive.


That's baloney. You don't need to use tacks. If you need to rely on something like that, then your'e not doing it right.


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## ruger

corinowalk said:


> Whats worse...a bit or thumb tacks in your face?


thats my point, but to be competitive its either or both.


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## nrhareiner

ruger said:


> thats my point, but to be competitive its either or both.


If you truly understood the fine art of bits you would understand that a bit used properly is a communication tool to communicate with very very fine/refined cues. Tipically you would move your hand about an inch. to cue a horse. It is more about seat and leg they the reins and bit.


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## ruger

nrhareiner said:


> If you truly understood the fine art of bits you would understand that a bit used properly is a communication tool to communicate with very very fine/refined cues. Tipically you would move your hand about an inch. to cue a horse. It is more about seat and leg they the reins and bit.


What about spurs?


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## VelvetsAB

_Where I come from, spurs are an EXTRA aid, but are not used for extra refinement._


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## wild_spot

> What about spurs?


Spurs are for refinement, not for bullying. That is a whole new thread so if you are really curious about peoples views on spurs (Most use them properly and have no issue with them) then please start a new thread.


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## Charis

MN Tigerstripes said:


> This is the statement that I always have a problem with. It should say "But it's amazing the difference it CAN make."
> 
> I've tried the bitless route with my horse and he highly disliked it. So much that he actually injured himself because he was concentrating on how *much he disliked the face pressure.*
> 
> 
> Sorry if I'm hammering on this point too much, but it's a pet peeve of mine how someone (not specifically you Bitless) can be so adamant that one way is the "one true path." Especially with something as individual as a horse's preference. *steps off pedastal*


 I like this entire post, especially the bolded part. Bitless bridles control through nose, jaw, and poll pressure; it is not some nifty, completely harmonious way of riding. Heavy hands are heavy hands whether that's connected to a bit or something wrapped around and tightening against the horse's jaw. I'd be so bold to say that it's harder for a horse to seek contact- as is vital in English disciplines- because of the constriction everywhere on the head.


----------



## trailhorserider

Maybe, instead of giving every beginning rider a snaffle and saying "good luck, you won't hurt them with this" we should just teach people to stay out of horses mouths to begin with? I mean, yes, we need to have contact with the reins, but we should rarely ever have to actually pull on the reins, know what I mean? We should treat the reins like threads that will break if we pull on them too hard. 

If you do that, you can ride in a curb or just about anything!

I personally prefer a curb to a snaffle. But then I have always ridden older, already trained horses on trails. I find curbs give me finesse. I have even been known to ride in those evil Argentine snaffle/ tom thumb/ kimberwick types! I find most horses do great in them! Shocking but true. 

Just ride like your reins are made of thread, and you will have a soft horse and can ride in any bit. That will solve most bit-related problems I venture to guess. 


​


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

so true  bits themselves are not evil...it's the way they are used if not used correctly...and a rider with heavy hands can misuse a bitless bridle just the same as someone else mentioned above already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender

You know, I have been passing this by cuz I didn't think it pertained to me. Boy was I wrong. I agree with all of it! Someone here recently asked about changing a bit for neck reining. I asked why do you need to rely on a bit for that.? It is all in the training from the begining. Give and take with softness. Pressure, release. And if you really don't know what your doing, get help. Everybody will make mistakes in their training, I have, but I also learned from watching trainers and finding a lot of info on the internet and books. I'm not perfect, but I do want the best care and training for my horses with the least possible problems later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

ruger said:


> What about spurs?


Spurs are an extension of your leg. Which if you read what I typed you would see I said leg. Like the bit if used properly they refine the cue given.


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## nrhareiner

VelvetsAB said:


> _Where I come from, spurs are an EXTRA aid, but are not used for extra refinement._


Where I come from they are used even more then a bit for refinement.


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## BitlessForHappiness

smrobs said:


> A bond has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's about refinement. You can't get that in a halter.


I disagree completely. Refinement can be achieved in a halter or less.


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## BitlessForHappiness

trailhorserider said:


> Maybe, instead of giving every beginning rider a snaffle and saying "good luck, you won't hurt them with this" we should just teach people to stay out of horses mouths to begin with? I mean, yes, we need to have contact with the reins, but we should rarely ever have to actually pull on the reins, know what I mean? We should treat the reins like threads that will break if we pull on them too hard.
> 
> 
> ​


I agree with that. Sadly, a lot of people give someone a really strong bit and rather than "Good luck" say "Okay, just pull to stop." It can get ugly.


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## Sunny

I'm not too fond of bitless for the same reason i'm not too fond of Parelli. It's the whole, "If you don't ______________(fill with Use Parelli methods, Ride bitless, etc) you are a horse abuser." I just read a bitless ad that said, "Bits cause pain, anxiety, and obstruct horses' breathing." Really? Just like yanking on a horse's sinus cavities will cause pain, anxiety, and obstruction of breathing. I just hate the my-way-or-the-highway mentality. If I had a horse who didn't work well with a bit, i'd consider bitless. But, personally, I have never worked with a horse who hated bits; just hated the hands that held the reins on the other end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BitlessForHappiness

Sunny said:


> I'm not too fond of bitless for the same reason i'm not too fond of Parelli. It's the whole, "If you don't ______________(fill with Use Parelli methods, Ride bitless, etc) you are a horse abuser." I just read a bitless ad that said, "Bits cause pain, anxiety, and obstruct horses' breathing." Really? Just like yanking on a horse's sinus cavities will cause pain, anxiety, and obstruction of breathing. I just hate the my-way-or-the-highway mentality. If I had a horse who didn't work well with a bit, i'd consider bitless. But, personally, I have never worked with a horse who hated bits; just hated the hands that held the reins on the other end.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find it to be more of "If you can do it that way, why can't you do it with less" rather than you're a horse abuser.


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## nrhareiner

BitlessForHappiness said:


> I find it to be more of "If you can do it that way, why can't you do it with less" rather than you're a horse abuser.


Less is relative. You think that less is less of a bit or no bit. I say less is less movement of my hand. Less contact on my horses b/c they can feel the movement of the bit with very little movement which refines the cue and makes it easier for them to understand what I want.


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## BitlessForHappiness

nrhareiner said:


> Less is relative. You think that less is less of a bit or no bit. I say less is less movement of my hand. Less contact on my horses b/c they can feel the movement of the bit with very little movement which refines the cue and makes it easier for them to understand what I want.


I mean less equipment, specifically.
On a completely unrelated note, your "I'm so busy" signature seriously cracked me up! I love it!


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## nrhareiner

BitlessForHappiness said:


> I mean less equipment, specifically.
> 
> *The thing is that it does not matter what you put into your horses mouth. If you have to use more then a few oz. of pressure then you are using too much. *
> 
> 
> On a completely unrelated note, your "I'm so busy" signature seriously cracked me up! I love it!


Thanks I like it too. Still do not know which it is though.


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## BitlessForHappiness

nrhareiner said:


> Thanks I like it too. Still do not know which it is though.


I actually forgot where my saddle was the other day. I walked into the tack shed, walked out, walked back in, wondered what I went to get, looked for my saddle, asked my trainer, realized it was in the same place as always, and pulled out out. I totally know the space case horse days.


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## KDeHaven42

Horseback riding is like religion, the different sects being different training methods or disciplines. Everyone is so endowed to their view that sometimes it puts blinders on us and we are unable to see the value in other peoples view points. Personally I am new to the art of biting, I have always ridden my horses in a D-ring snaffle (or on my lazy days, a halter with reins attached lol). This has worked very well with the horses I have ridden, but I have always been intrigued by other methods. Bitless is not the end all. It is not the answer to all problems. It is also not something EVERYONE should try. Its an option, its a choice, not the only humane/correct option. I've ridden many horses and can name several off the top of my head that would fail miserably with a bitless option because of their dislike of facial and poll pressure. Conversely there are many horses that hate mouth pressure. The fact of the matter is that this thread has an extremely valid point in that harsh bits + harsh hands =harsh mouths and that you need to learn to ride with softness and treat the bit or lack there of as an aid, not the driving force behind riding. But the ideas that bitless is the best/only way to go is as foolish as saying that there's only one right religion for everyone in the world. 

Conversely, I will NEVER be ok with a halter with thumbtacks. That's completely unnecessary and foolish. I'm sure you're going for the shock value there, congrats, you got me.


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## BitlessForHappiness

Agreed. There isn't a "one way", but I stand by my opinions entirely.
I believe your "thumbtack" comment was over my head....elaborate please?


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## KDeHaven42

read the previous posts, there is some jackwagon that thinks a good option for competition and finesse is a halter with thumbtacks in it instead of a bridle with or without a bit


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## BitlessForHappiness

KDeHaven42 said:


> read the previous posts, there is some jackwagon that thinks a good option for competition and finesse is a halter with thumbtacks in it instead of a bridle with or without a bit


Ah I did not see that. Well, frankly, if that's what works for them, I say go for it and let the judges decide what looks best in the ring.


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## wild_spot

Really? You are against bits but don't mind if someones pokes their horse in the face with thumbtacks instead?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

KDeHaven42 said:


> read the previous posts, there is some jackwagon that thinks a good option for competition and finesse is a halter with thumbtacks in it instead of a bridle with or without a bit


Don't worry, that cluck (idiot) has since been banned for other reasons.


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## Solon

wild_spot said:


> Really? You are against bits but don't mind if someones pokes their horse in the face with thumbtacks instead?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good grief - that's what I was thinking!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Really? Thumbtacks? I can't believe you're serious...

Anyways. 

I had an interesting experience bit shopping the other day. I've been looking for a couple of bits for Lily and haven't had a lot of luck. She needs a 4.25" bit and not a lot of the stores carry that size. 

I went into a store that I haven't been in before, told them what I was looking for (full cheek snaffle), and explained the "problem" with Lily. Her main problem is lack of training, but in manifests in having no "whoa". The tack store owner immediately wanted me to put her in a slow twist dee ring. I explained that I didn't need a twisted mouthpeice, Lily's picking things up quickly and there is no need for a twisted bit. She just needs time and training. 

Basically the owner seemed to think I was an idiot, kept trying to convince me that this horse needed some sort of twisted bit, possibly one that had some poll action. :roll:


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## smrobs

Unfortunately, there are soo many people out there that would have said "Okay, if you think that's best :?".


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## nrhareiner

I can under stand why the store owners suggested that bit. I have and do use them. However not to put a whoa on a horse. I use them to lighten the horse up. My trainer uses them for the same reason. They are not used every day. Matter of fact my trainer rarely uses the same bit what ever he grabs that day he uses. That is probably why my horses he has trained will go in any bit. It is not about the bit it is about the training and the hands the bits are in.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Nrhareiner - It's not that I have a real problem with that particular bit. I haven't run into a situation where it's needed, but I haven't trained a lot of horses. 

I was frustrated that the shop owner automatically decided that I needed a stronger bit and wouldn't listen to me when I specifically said the horse is just basically untrained. She just doesn't really understand what I'm asking when I'm asking for a whoa. She isn't being defiant or leaning on the bit. Her mouth is actually quite soft and she's very responsive once she figures it out. I think that putting a stronger bit in her mouth is going to cause more problems than it fixes. 

I did find a loose ring snaffle that fits her though and she seems to like it, so the problem is solved for the time being. Now if the rain would just stop so I can actually ride!


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## nrhareiner

I agree that a twisted wire is probably not what you need. I am just saying I can some what understand her point. If your mare is light and responsive then there is no need for one. I use them on green horses so I get that light and responsive horse. It takes less pulling and hand movement with a twisted wire then a larger mouth snaffle. However once the horse gets it which does not take lone then they go into other bits and may come back to that one at some point. 

I also must say that if your hands are not quiet then you should not use a twisted wire either. I also do not like the small fast twist. I like the ones that are a bit larger in diameter with a med. twist.


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## BitlessForHappiness

wild_spot said:


> Really? You are against bits but don't mind if someones pokes their horse in the face with thumbtacks instead?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Woah...I didn't realize the thumbtacks were facing outwards on the horse. No, that's classified as abuse. I'm sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought it was an exaggeration of some halter barely held together or something. WOW I'm stupid...I'm sorry.

No, that is DEFINITELY not acceptable. I agree.


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## Ray MacDonald

Don't worry, we all have those moments! lol


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## Sunny

I don't want to hijack, but I would like everyone's opinion. As some of you know I am starting Sunny soon. I have considered starting bitless, but should I start with a bit and then change over, or just start bitless? She's been mouthed, but no real bit training. Do you think its a bad idea to start a baby bitless? I feel like she should know how to respond to a bit in the chance I have to sell her, so should I begin there? Or do you think I should just not worry about bitless unless she really dislikes it? And in case anyone is wondering, there is no SPECIFIC reason why I want to go bitless, I would just like to and I always have. :lol: But if you guys think it's a bad idea then I won't. I'm confused as to which method I should go with. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

I am a big believer is starting horses in snaffles. Even the trainers you see showing in a Bosal start their horses in a snaffle. Then they switch over slowly. Then after the aged events go to a curb bit. In the end you will find your horse will respond to a lighter cue starting with a snaffle. You just have to remember to be light with your hands.


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## Sunny

Thanks, nrha. That's what I was thinking. I'll just keep working with her in the bit I have for her now. If she does well in that then i'll just keep her there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon

I started my boy bitless, then went to a bridle, then went back to bitless. Personally, I don't think it matters much - although as always the horse will often dictate what the horse needs.


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## wild_spot

I'm starting latte in a bit and eventually will go bites for endurance and butted for everything else. 

I find a bit makes it easier to reach lateral bend in the beginning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon

I always hear people say that about the bending. I guess I just got lucky. Never had problem one and he was in a halter first until I could find a bit that was big enough for him.


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## smrobs

I think you should use whatever feels right for you and your mare. I prefer starting in a snaffle because that's what I know and what I'm comfortable with but there are many, like Solon, that have wonderful results with bitless. Start her with what you want and if you don't like the feel of it, then you might want to try something different.


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## Sunny

Thanks, guys. I love having horsie people who can help me through issues. I brought it up today with my mom and her response was, "I don't really know what you're talking about." :lol: I'm just going to go ahead and order her a new bit(her current is a bit snug) and start with that. If I don't like how she's responding i'll switch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB

nrhareiner said:


> Where I come from they are used even more then a bit for refinement.


_I should get out and see more western events nrha!_

_I can see why they would add extra refinement, and I wish I had that kind of skill. _


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## nrhareiner

VelvetsAB said:


> _I should get out and see more western events nrha!_
> 
> _I can see why they would add extra refinement, and I wish I had that kind of skill. _



Yes come join the dark side. We have cookies brownies pie and at times homemade Pizza. Come join us.


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## MN Tigerstripes

So you're telling me I should train Soda to be a reiner?


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## smrobs

Soda would make one gorgeous reiner *drools*. Just give me one more reason to sneak up and steal him :wink:.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Smrobs, you come up here to the land of snow and ice or mosquitos and mud and you can take him for a ride.  I'd like to pick your brains about training anyways. I'm becoming more and more tempted to start taking on project horses, but I'm not sure if I have the skill.


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## smrobs

LOL, for someone that actually has some savvy, getting one rideable is like 75% determination. No doubt you already have the skill (so long as there are no vicious monsters :wink.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Thanks.  I'm thinking I MAY pick up a project next summer. As long as Lily goes well this winter. Soda's taught (or re-taught) me a lot already and I have a feeling that she'll continue that education. 

I've also thought about doing some tune ups this spring on the trail horses in the area. A lot of people up here don't ride at all in the winter. I'm sure you can imagine what the horses are like after spending 6 months sitting in the paddocks not being handled.

We'll see what happens, I've been doing a lot of thinking about what I really want to do with my life in the last couple of months. When I was a kid it was always horses, but I had it ground into my head that I'd never be able to make it work. But horses are what truly gives me pleasure, it's the biggest passion in my life, so maybe I should just say screw it and go for it. I'm not getting in younger!

No monsters for me at this point, I'm smart enough to know what I can handle.


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## rush60

Amen! I remember my grandpa sitting me in the garden and teaching me about soft hands by having me pull weeds. First contact then a gentle pull would get the root but a jerk or yank just got the top and then I had to dig out the root.


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## mom2pride

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Sorry if I'm hammering on this point too much, but it's a pet peeve of mine how someone (not specifically you Bitless) can be so adamant that one way is the "one true path." Especially with something as individual as a horse's preference. *steps off pedastal*


I fully agree with this; My mare for example can be ridden in a rope halter, but hates dr. cook style bitless...she will ride in a western hackemore, but hates one with shanks. She just doesn't require all that extra "leverage", and she makes it known by flipping her nose a tad when even the slightest pressure is given. She moves out fine with any type of snaffle bit, however...d-ring, o-ring, french link, etc. 

However, that said I did try her in a mild curb this morning, and she did SO much better with it, than she did the times I tried it on her before, so perhaps her being in the learning phases, has something to do with her not liking the other things mentioned. 

I DO also think that when a horse's training is complete, one should be able to swap bits out if he needs to, and the horse should respond well to it. As we all know that our control doesn't come from the bit anyway, at least not in "full", so why should it matter what style bit we choose once he's trained anyway? However, I do realize there are sometimes the exceptions to the rule, too.


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## lencoo12

smrobs said:


> Yes, a french link, dogbone, or even a myler type mouth would also be very nice mild options. However, it depends on what your horse prefers and the shape of their mouth. Some horses really hate tongue pressure and respond better in either a standard or a ported snaffle. Others have a low palate and prefer the more streamlined shape of the former types.
> 
> The most important thing about a snaffle is it has a 1:1 ratio. That means for every pound you exert on the reins, the horse feels a pound in his mouth. It is impossible to find anything milder than that. Plus the thing that makes it so simple is that it works on just the mouth. It is easier to communicate to a horse that is just learning. Once you add a shank, not only is it working on the mouth, but it is pressuring the curb and the poll too. That makes for more complicated signals and easier confusion.


I agree with everything you've said. Recently I came under fire at a riding club meeting for riding my 10 year old QH gelding in a plain "O" ring snaffle bit. This gal is a "trainer", so therefor knows everything. She said if my horse wanted to, that he could run off with me. I reminded her that no bit can guarentee a horse to stop- that training does that, and hanging a bigger/heavier bit in a horse's face doesn't do anything but sweep the issue under the rug. That shut her up. ​


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## BitlessForHappiness

lencoo12 said:


> I agree with everything you've said. Recently I came under fire at a riding club meeting for riding my 10 year old QH gelding in a plain "O" ring snaffle bit. This gal is a "trainer", so therefor knows everything. She said if my horse wanted to, that he could run off with me. I reminded her that no bit can guarentee a horse to stop- that training does that, and hanging a bigger/heavier bit in a horse's face doesn't do anything but sweep the issue under the rug. That shut her up. ​


Oh trainers...I once had a trainer that told me the sweetest Thoroughbred anyone had ever met was "dangerous" because she was a young thoroughbred, but he bought me (I was NINE at the time) an injured stallion cutting horse as a "riding pony". I LOVE the horse, but the trainer was completely off his rocker. Nonsequator, sorry...haha


----------



## EmilyRosie

Hello,
My personal opinion on this subject...I don't agree with bits at all, but if a person feels the need to ride with a bit I believe the most simple snaffle bit would be the best choice. I disagree with bits because I feel as though horses should respond to their trainer not to the pain on their mouth. However, I am not with every single horse and cannot say whether or not every individual horse needs a bit. I would not ride with a bit because I personally feel that any horse can be transferred to be ridden without a bit and I would prefer not too use a bit as a form of persuading a horse to do what I want it to do. I want my horse to respond to me because my horse thinks its a good idea for him/her to do it and I want my horse to trust me and want to do what I am asking him/her to do. Just my personal opinion.


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Hello,
> My personal opinion on this subject...I don't agree with bits at all, but if a person feels the need to ride with a bit I believe the most simple snaffle bit would be the best choice. I disagree with bits because I feel as though horses should respond to their trainer not to the pain on their mouth. However, I am not with every single horse and cannot say whether or not every individual horse needs a bit. I would not ride with a bit because I personally feel that any horse can be transferred to be ridden without a bit and I would prefer not too use a bit as a form of persuading a horse to do what I want it to do. I want my horse to respond to me because my horse thinks its a good idea for him/her to do it and I want my horse to trust me and want to do what I am asking him/her to do. Just my personal opinion.



This here shows a lack of understanding of what a bit is and what they do. A bit properly used does not cause pain. It does not MAKE a horse do anything. It is simply a way to refine a cue. Just like Spurs are used to refine the cue from the leg. The seat is again a cue.

It has nothing to do with a horse trusting your or liking your or anything. It is about giving the least visible cue possible and getting the exact response asked for.

Also I do not care if my horse thinks it is a good idea to follow my cue or not. I ask b/c that is what I NEED them to do. I know things they do not know. I do not want the horse to think they have a choice in where we go and what we do.


----------



## EmilyRosie

nrhareiner said:


> This here shows a lack of understanding of what a bit is and what they do. A bit properly used does not cause pain. It does not MAKE a horse do anything. It is simply a way to refine a cue. Just like Spurs are used to refine the cue from the leg. The seat is again a cue.
> 
> It has nothing to do with a horse trusting your or liking your or anything. It is about giving the least visible cue possible and getting the exact response asked for.
> 
> Also I do not care if my horse thinks it is a good idea to follow my cue or not. I ask b/c that is what I NEED them to do. I know things they do not know. I do not want the horse to think they have a choice in where we go and what we do.


I am sure not saying all a bit does is cause pain so I think you didn't gather my point, but I think we have such very very very different views on this subject that we would never agree on it. I don't believe there is such a thing is a bad horse. Yes horses misbehave sometimes, but we should listen to them. For instance, if I get on my pony and it seems that she is grumpy, but the days before that she has been fine then I will get off because just like humans, horses have off days too. I want my pony to want to do what I am asking him or her to do. If a rider is depending on the metal piece inserted in the horses mouth to get their horse to do what they want..I would say the rider needs more practice, but in case you didn't notice I also wrote " However, I am not with every single horse and cannot say whether or not every individual horse needs a bit. " So obviously that shows that I am not saying that every single horse needs to be ridden without a bit. I would not ride with a bit because like I said its extremely important to me that my horse thinks its a good idea and it would be fun and good for them to do what I am asking. If a bit is "just a way to refine a cue." Maybe you should check that your horse won't listen to the cue before finding a way to reassure it. I am not saying a horse has a choice I am saying that if a horse doesn't want to do something I personally find a different way to do it and make the horse feel comfortable instead of just pushing it on. Obviously horses can misbehave and its usually pretty easy to tell if they are nervous about something or just being lazy or misbehaving. Like I said just my personal opinion.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...-respond-your-bit-62456/page16/#ixzz11tIi1kLv​


----------



## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> I am sure not saying all a bit does is cause pain so I think you didn't gather my point, but I think we have such very very very different views on this subject that we would never agree on it.
> 
> *You are correct we will never agree b/c I do not look at bits as a way to make a horse do something. I look at a bit the same way I look at spurs and my seat. They are tools in which to cue a horse. They are not a way to MAKE a horse do something. *
> 
> I don't believe there is such a thing is a bad horse.
> 
> *Sure there are just like there are bad people bad anything. They have a mind of their own and some of them are just bad and love being bad.*
> 
> Yes horses misbehave sometimes, but we should listen to them. For instance, if I get on my pony and it seems that she is grumpy, but the days before that she has been fine then I will get off because just like humans, horses have off days too.
> *
> If all it is is that they are grumpy they will work. I do not have a choice to not work when I get grumpy. If they are hurt or something that is different. If they are just grumpy and do not want to work that is when they will work. They do not have a choice that is their job. When I go to a show they need to know they have to work. All my horses earn their keep. They love having a job it makes them happy and once they start working and get warmed up even the grumpy ones come around very well b/c they know their job and love doing it.*
> 
> I want my pony to want to do what I am asking him or her to do. If a rider is depending on the metal piece inserted in the horses mouth to get their horse to do what they want..I would say the rider needs more practice,
> 
> 
> *Again you do not fully under stand what a bit is and what it does. "A Piece of mettle" as you call it does not make a horse do anything. Again it is no different then me using my seat and legs to cue my horse. It is one more way of communicating. If it had anything to do with rider practice then why do Olympic riders and riders with close to $4 Million in earnings put bits in their horses mouth. It is not b/c they need the bit. They do it b/c it is one more way to communicate with a horse.*
> 
> but in case you didn't notice I also wrote " However, I am not with every single horse and cannot say whether or not every individual horse needs a bit. "
> 
> *Again is has nothing to do with NEEDING a bit. I can run a reining pattern with my horses with out a bit but I can do it better and more precise with a bit. It is simply anouther way to communicate. Like I do not need a cell phone. I have a land line at home. I do not need e mail I send a letter snail mail. However these things give me anouther way to communicate with people.*
> 
> So obviously that shows that I am not saying that every single horse needs to be ridden without a bit. I would not ride with a bit because like I said its extremely important to me that my horse thinks its a good idea and it would be fun and good for them to do what I am asking. If a bit is "just a way to refine a cue." Maybe you should check that your horse won't listen to the cue before finding a way to reassure it.
> 
> *Again this just shows you do not under stand what a bit does and why it is used. I can get my horses to work with out a bit. With out anything on their head. That does not make they better or me better. It makes them well trained. Go out and take your horse take off everything off their head. Run them full out and ask them to stop. When I say stop I mean stop now. Not is 3-4 stride or when they get to the fence. I mean stop now. I can do it. Yet I choice to use a bit. Not b/c I need the bit but b/c it is again anouther way of communication. When I ride I might move my hand a few inch to cue a horse. So the bit never really hits their mouth. The pressure that is put on them is less then a few oz. It is about soft quiet hands and a responsive well trained horse. *
> 
> 
> I am not saying a horse has a choice I am saying that if a horse doesn't want to do something I personally find a different way to do it and make the horse feel comfortable instead of just pushing it on. Obviously horses can misbehave and its usually pretty easy to tell if they are nervous about something or just being lazy or misbehaving. Like I said just my personal opinion.


Again you are assuming that by putting a bit in my horses mouth that I am pushing them or making them uncomfortable. My horses do what they do b/c they are bred to do it and they love it. If they did not you would not get the level of performance that my horses work at. You can not make a horse perform you can only give cues to that performance. This is why reiners slide when other horses can not. This is why cutters get down in the dirt to cut a cow and other do not. You can not train this. This is bred into them and they love it. They do it b/c it is what they are bred to do and love doing. All I do is put a cue to it so they do it when I ask. Part of the cue is a bit.


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## Sunny

Well said, Reiner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie

nrhareiner said:


> Again you are assuming that by putting a bit in my horses mouth that I am pushing them or making them uncomfortable. My horses do what they do b/c they are bred to do it and they love it. If they did not you would not get the level of performance that my horses work at. You can not make a horse perform you can only give cues to that performance. This is why reiners slide when other horses can not. This is why cutters get down in the dirt to cut a cow and other do not. You can not train this. This is bred into them and they love it. They do it b/c it is what they are bred to do and love doing. All I do is put a cue to it so they do it when I ask. Part of the cue is a bit.


Well I disagree I feel that a bit does make horses uncomfortable and if you can get your horses to do what you want without a bit why would you use one? You do not need a bit to get your horse to do what you need and we just can't say that bits are not uncomfortable for horses. Now getting down to the beginning of all horses..horses were not created for us to ride. They were trained over years to be ridden. Horses still have their natural instincts. When I ride I want to as close to the horse as I can so I want to be at their element. When they are playing with their horse mates they don't have anything on them obviously, but I want to be as close as possible so I personally love bareback with a halter, but at lessons I ride with a saddle and bitless bridle because I can live with that. I do not want horses to be objectified and I hate when they are so to me we treat them like other beings...we ask them to do things like we ask each other too, for instance horses let us ride them and in return I believe that we should make it as comfortable as possible for them..Yes we feed them give them a home and so on, but we should still make them feel as good as possible. Not every single horse loves being ridden. And no I will never believe that there are bad horses. Horses just don't have bad in their nature. Saying I don't understand the purpose of a bit is not true at all I used to ride with a bit so I know the purpose. Also considering I have ridden with and without a bit I know the pros and cons of each one. My horse loves bitless so does every single other horse I have ever worked with ever. I believe that we will never ever agree on this still because we view the whole concept of riding and of horses so differently. If one way of communicating is ALREADY WORKING then why do you need to add another that could be debated as painful and uncomfortable? I am not saying riding is wrong by any means I am just saying that horses sole purpose on earth is not (and should not) be to be ridden. I disagree with bits and that will never change. I don't understand the logic behind "This communication is already working, but am going to add this just to make sure." Spurs are a whole different topic. Spurs do inflict pain. Jabbing something into a horses side is useless and the horse reacts to pain and listens to you because they are afraid of pain same with a bit. I want my horse to listen to me because he or she RESPECTS me not because they know I will inflict pain on them if they don't listen to me.


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## Sunny

Emily, your whole concept on these things is warped. Spurs don't equal jabbing. ETA: Take a look at a world level reining competition. Look at the rider's hands. How much do they
move? Almost never. Look at the sliding stops. The rider is all seat.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie

Sunny said:


> Emily, you're whole concept on these things is warped. Spurs don't equal jabbing
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I wouldn't consider anybody's opinion warped because it is THEIR opinion and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Even though it may be "warped" to you it isn't to me. When I joined the forum I thought it was to have healthy debates, ask questions and share opinions, not to be antagonized for your opinion and saying that somebody's whole concept is warped is antagonizing.


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## Sunny

If you are grouping everyone into those stereotypes("If you use spurs you jab at your horse's sides," "If you use a bit you yank on your horse's mouth") then that IS warped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmilyRosie

Sunny said:


> If you are grouping everyone into those stereotypes("If you use spurs you jab at your horse's sides," "If you use a bit you yank on your horse's mouth") then that IS warped.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually like I have implied in other posts it is not for me my way or no way. I haven't stereotyped anybody. Stereotyping would be "This person listens to this kind of music so they must act like this." That is not AT ALL what I have said.


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## smrobs

Bigger bits are used for _*refinement*_. That means that I can get my horse to do exactly what I want them to do in a halter, but when I have to move my hands 6 inches in a halter to achieve the same cue that I can get in a curb bit by moving my hand 1 or 2 inches. It's not about "use what works" because _anything_ works. It's about "use what is the most subtle and gives the clearest cues". In a halter to do certain things, I have to apply a few ounces of pressure to the rein in order for the horse to understand exactly what I am asking. Compare that with being able to lift one rein by 2 inches, never contacting the bit to get the same reaction.

Think of it like this. You remember those can telephones that we all used to make as a child where you poke a hole in the bottom of a couple of tin cans and tie a string to them? Then you can talk to another person from one side of the room to the other? Remember how garbled and muted the voices were so that you could barely understand each other? That is the equivalent of a halter or soft bitless bridle.

Now think of how clear conversations are on your home phone, where you can barely whisper and the other person understands exactly what you are saying. That is the equivalent to a curb bit.

Yes, both of them work, but for finer cues and clearer communication, a curb bit is the best. Of course, that all depends on the bit being in the hands of a good rider.


----------



## Sunny

EmilyRosie said:


> Spurs are a whole different topic. Spurs do inflict pain. Jabbing something into a horses side is useless and the horse reacts to pain and listens to you because they are afraid of pain same with a bit.


 This is an automatic stereotype. You are saying that if a person uses a bit or spurs they are inflicting pain upon their horse. That is very ignorant of the mechanics of bits and spurs. Do I use spurs? No. Do I use bits? I have been contemplating starting my filly bitless, read a few pages back. But I am aware of the mechanics of all three: bits, spurs, and bitless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Well I disagree I feel that a bit does make horses uncomfortable
> 
> *If a bit is so uncomfortable then why do my horses eat a bit like they eat their treats?? Every single one of them love their bits. All I have to do is put the bit in front of their mouth and they open up and take the bit. My one mares sucks in so fast I need to watch my fingers.*
> 
> and if you can get your horses to do what you want without a bit why would you use one?
> 
> *For several reasons. One I can use less of a cue with a bit then I can with a bit-less bridle. You are still putting pressure on a horse with out a bit. It does not make them more comfortable. Chances are you are using more pressure with your bit-less bridle then I am with my bit.*
> 
> *Next they are required to show. If a horse with out a bit was some how better and better trained then why is there no discipline in which that is the end goal? *
> 
> You do not need a bit to get your horse to do what you need and we just can't say that bits are not uncomfortable for horses.
> 
> *Again bits are not more or less comfortable or unconformable then a bit-less bridle. Again I would bet that I use less pressure on my horse with a bit then you do with a bit-less bridle.
> 
> Again you assume that a bit is uncomfortable for a horse. I say a well fitted bit is no more uncomfortable then any bit-less bridle out there.* *My horses love their bits. They eat them right up.*
> 
> 
> Now getting down to the beginning of all horses..horses were not created for us to ride. They were trained over years to be ridden. Horses still have their natural instincts. When I ride I want to as close to the horse as I can so I want to be at their element.
> 
> *This thought is so flawed I am not even going to address it. It is like saying cows where not meant to be eaten.*
> 
> When they are playing with their horse mates they don't have anything on them obviously, but I want to be as close as possible so I personally love bareback with a halter, but at lessons I ride with a saddle and bitless bridle because I can live with that.
> 
> *Not sure why you seem to think that a bit-less bridle is some how superior to a well fitted bit. I can do as much damage to a horse with a bit-less bridle as I can a bit. Only difference is I would be doing the damage to their nose and the pole of their head instead of their mouth.*
> 
> I do not want horses to be objectified and I hate when they are so to me we treat them like other beings...we ask them to do things like we ask each other too, for instance horses let us ride them and in return I believe that we should make it as comfortable as possible for them..
> 
> *Again a well fitted saddle and bridle makes a horse quite comfortable. If not they would toss us off quite fast.* *Or better yet they would not come running when they see us with the bridle and saddle now would they. Try catching a horse who does not wish to be caught.*
> 
> 
> Yes we feed them give them a home and so on, but we should still make them feel as good as possible.
> 
> *Yes with a well fitted saddle and bit/bridle. Then a good chiro good feed good hoof care and so on. Why do I do this for my horses. It makes them feel good and it improves their performance.*
> 
> Not every single horse loves being ridden. And no I will never believe that there are bad horses. Horses just don't have bad in their nature.
> *
> Nasruller was a mean horse. He revealed in doing damage to his handlers as his get followed in his foot steps. There are quite a few others like this. Again just like bad people there are bad horses. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying I don't understand the purpose of a bit is not true at all I used to ride with a bit so I know the purpose. Also considering I have ridden with and without a bit I know the pros and cons of each one.
> 
> *Just b/c you have used a bit does not mean you under stand how to use one.
> *
> 
> My horse loves bitless so does every single other horse I have ever worked with ever.
> 
> *Every horse I have ever owned and ridden love their bits. It has nothing to do with bits or no bits it has to do with your hands. Good hands can make the harshest bits soft and bad hands can make everything even a halter on a horse hurt.*
> 
> 
> I believe that we will never ever agree on this still because we view the whole concept of riding and of horses so differently. If one way of communicating is ALREADY WORKING then why do you need to add another that could be debated as painful and uncomfortable?
> 
> 
> *Again you are assuming that a bit makes a horse uncomfortable and causes pain. They do not. If they did a horse would not except the bit as well as they do. Horses that have been ridden by people with bad hands do tend to not take a bit as well.*
> 
> *As for only using one way to communicate. It would be like using only one work to tell a story. A horse has several sections. Head Shoulders mid section and hip. I want and do control every inch of my horse. I use my seat leg spurs reins and at times bit to control every inch of my horses. At times I use several of these aids at the same time to get a very specific cue that I need.
> 
> You seem to think that the only way to control a horse is a bit (head) I say I have 100 ways to control my horses movements. That is why I can get very precise cues and maneuvers.
> *
> I am not saying riding is wrong by any means I am just saying that horses sole purpose on earth is not (and should not) be to be ridden. I disagree with bits and that will never change.
> 
> *That is fine. You do not have to change. However do not ask other to change either. You seem to think that bits are bad and that by using them people are bad and mean to their horses. That is not the case. We understand the need and use of a bit and why they work the way they do. Also again if riding bit-less was such a great thing would associations like NRHA where by definition of a reining horse is to be willingly guided aspire to showing a horse with out a bit?*
> 
> I don't understand the logic behind "This communication is already working, but am going to add this just to make sure."
> 
> *
> Again it comes down to controlling every inch of the horses body. Something you can not do with just your seat or leg or rein or bit. *
> 
> Spurs are a whole different topic. Spurs do inflict pain. Jabbing something into a horses side is useless and the horse reacts to pain and listens to you because they are afraid of pain same with a bit.
> 
> *Again you show you do not at all under stand what a bit or spurs are or how to use them. Can they cause pain? Sure if they are not used correctly. If they are used correctly they are an extension of your leg. When used properly they do not cause pain. They refine the cue. My horses are trained to the lightest cue. In a very precise spot. My heal is too big to hit that spot. So I use a spur. I use less then an once of pressure with my spur. That is less then a standard 1st class letter. I can run my horse full out in a large circle and move them over to hit the center of the circle. This is what you get from a spur. You would not get this with out one. At least not as fast and precise you you do with one. It would be too hard to hit that exact spot.*
> 
> I want my horse to listen to me because he or she RESPECTS me not because they know I will inflict pain on them if they don't listen to me.


Again you are showing your lack of knowledge and information. I do not inflict pain on my horses to get them to work. Nor does any other good rider/trainer. If they where in pain I would not get the performance that I need to win the money my horses have won. It is even part of the rules. The look of the horse is to be willing a horse in pain will not look willing. Also have you ever shown a reiner? Been to an NRHA show? At the end of every single run. Every rider MUST drop bit to the judge. The judge WILL look at the bit at the horses mouth they will walk all the way around the horse they WILL pick up the stirrups and tail. IF there is even so much as a scratch on that horse you are DQed. So no there is no forcing a horse to do anything. Bits and spurs are extensions and a way to refine a cue.


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## nrhareiner

Here is a nice example of what you get with a bit and spurs with a rider who knows and understands what they are how they are used. With out them this ride would not look like this. Look at how little the riders hands move. Look at how little this legs move to cue the horse. There is no pulling on the bit or jabbing with the spurs.


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## smrobs

I love Shawn Flarida. I think he is one of my favorite trainers mostly because many of his horses actually finish the rollback instead of half-assing it. I hated his bad luck in the WEG individual competition.


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## nrhareiner

smrobs said:


> I love Shawn Flarida. I think he is one of my favorite trainers mostly because many of his horses actually finish the rollback instead of half-assing it. I hated his bad luck in the WEG individual competition.



I agree and I love the way his horses stop. I remember looking for a stallion several years ago and was looking for certain lines to compliment my mare. I watched a video of Shawn riding Zan Freckles Hickory and the way he stopped and fell in love with him.

I know I watched his run and say the strap brake and fly off. Been there done that. Not fun. I feel bad for him. If not for that bad luck he would have won. His run up to that point was looking like a 228+

Now we know how to get Shawn to score less then a 210.


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## smrobs

LOL, yep. He still did dang good though considering he was riding with only 1 stirrup.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

smrobs said:


> Bigger bits are used for _*refinement*_. That means that I can get my horse to do exactly what I want them to do in a halter, but when I have to move my hands 6 inches in a halter to achieve the same cue that I can get in a curb bit by moving my hand 1 or 2 inches. It's not about "use what works" because _anything_ works. It's about "use what is the most subtle and gives the clearest cues". In a halter to do certain things, I have to apply a few ounces of pressure to the rein in order for the horse to understand exactly what I am asking. Compare that with being able to lift one rein by 2 inches, never contacting the bit to get the same reaction.
> 
> Think of it like this. You remember those can telephones that we all used to make as a child where you poke a hole in the bottom of a couple of tin cans and tie a string to them? Then you can talk to another person from one side of the room to the other? Remember how garbled and muted the voices were so that you could barely understand each other? That is the equivalent of a halter or soft bitless bridle.
> 
> Now think of how clear conversations are on your home phone, where you can barely whisper and the other person understands exactly what you are saying. That is the equivalent to a curb bit.
> 
> Yes, both of them work, but for finer cues and clearer communication, a curb bit is the best. Of course, that all depends on the bit being in the hands of a good rider.


GREAT way of explaining it!! Emily ~ bits themselves do not hurt horses...riders with heavy hands that don't know how to use them do. If you're one of them, then yes you will find that things work better without the bit.


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## EmilyRosie

It is your prerogative to ride with a bit just as it is mine to ride with out one that is specifically why I wrote in MY personal opinion. I dislike bits and spurs I believe that the reason horses respond quicker to them is because they feel them more and uncomfortably. Just as strongly as you feel that bits and spurs do not make horses uncomfortable is how much I do feel that they do make horses uncomfortable. As far as this "*This thought is so flawed I am not even going to address it. It is like saying cows where not meant to be eaten.*" goes 1. If you are indeed saying that cows are meant to be eaten I'm a vegetarian. I have a feeling that is not what you meant though. 2. I feel your whole thought process is so flawed as well. I am very tired of hearing " My lack of knowledge." I am definitely offended by it. I feel as though your heels are dug and you won't try to look at other peoples opinion at all. I am not trying to change your thought process I am simply sharing mine. I thought it was a healthy debate until the lack of knowledge comment. I have not ONCE said that if somebody uses a bit that that means you are mean to your horse and a bad horseman/horsewoman. At my barn nobody uses bits, but they still teach you how they are used so stop saying I do not known how to use one. At my old barn I rode with a bit and I realized that I didn't like them and personally despised them. Also I am starting showing again and I have permission to not use a bit. So there are ways around that maybe it just means you don't enter certain shows, but that would require sacrificing something for your horse. It is a known fact that it doesn't take a lot of force to cause tissue damage from putting a bit in any horses mouth. I'm sure you know from your experience that horses have pressure points on their faces so with a proper fitted bitless bridle you could get the same reaction and precision as you would with a bit. A horses mouth is so sensitive so it can't feel good to have a bit in the mouth. I am natural horsemanship all the way and you are bit all way so we will never agree. I am great with healthy debates in fact I love them, but when people start offending me I know longer find it healthy and fun. Any horse can be trained with the proper training your method would not work on all horses neither would mine the difference is I would try more things I feel as though if a horse does not respond to your way it would be labeled a bad horse..Horses are beings too. This is something I wrote on yahoo answers : " When horses are in the wild playing with each other they don't have anything on them so for us to be most like horses playmates bareback is more natural. I don't use a bit either I ride bareback with a halter or bitless bridle. I believe horses can tell exactly how we are feeling. I believe they can sense how we feel so if we go out to work with them and we are angry they pick up on that and take on that negative energy and that shows in how they react to your training. I am just bareback and bit-less and I feel more connected to my horse than I ever have before." This just shows how I feel about horses in general and if you do not agree or understand that then there is absolutely no point in arguing about bits with you at all.


http://www.horseforum.com/#ixzz11v8jpF00​


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## smrobs

Emily, the reason that we got so up at arms was because in your first post, and almost every one subsequent, you have implied that the horse doesn't respond to the training it gets, but is simply trying to avoid the "pain" caused by the bit and/or spurs and that is why they respond. You make it sound like no matter what, even carrying around the bit is uncomfortable and maybe even painful for them. Unless you have the same mouth configuration as a horse and have tried a bit on, then you couldn't possibly know that past what your experience has been with _your_ bits on _your_ horses. You prefer bitless and bareback, that's fine. Going bitless and bareback is completely impractical for me since I do a lot of cow work and roping. I honestly believe that my horses like the bit because if they didn't, I seriously doubt that they would drop their head and bridle themselves the way they do. Your experience has been molded by a bad experience with a bit and that's fine. We are each influenced by our own experiences, but it was rather offensive to me to read someone who automatically assumes that my horses are uncomfortable in the bit when I see proof every day to the contrary.


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## EmilyRosie

smrobs said:


> Emily, the reason that we got so up at arms was because in your first post, and almost every one subsequent, you have implied that the horse doesn't respond to the training it gets, but is simply trying to avoid the "pain" caused by the bit and/or spurs and that is why they respond. You make it sound like no matter what, even carrying around the bit is uncomfortable and maybe even painful for them. Unless you have the same mouth configuration as a horse and have tried a bit on, then you couldn't possibly know that past what your experience has been with _your_ bits on _your_ horses. You prefer bitless and bareback, that's fine. Going bitless and bareback is completely impractical for me since I do a lot of cow work and roping. I honestly believe that my horses like the bit because if they didn't, I seriously doubt that they would drop their head and bridle themselves the way they do. Your experience has been molded by a bad experience with a bit and that's fine. We are each influenced by our own experiences, but it was rather offensive to me to read someone who automatically assumes that my horses are uncomfortable in the bit when I see proof every day to the contrary.


Well first I appreciate the tone (if you will) you have used in talking to me in this post I didn't feel as under interrogation as I did with nhariener. The reason I feel bits inflict pain is because I have seen horses mouths with horrible conditions from bits. I am willing to look at the possibility that a bit may be okay if used properly and not as a way to make a horse do something in certain events not all the time. Although I would like my opinion to be looked at as well. I still don't agree with bits and I don't think I ever will, but I could maybe possibly see if somebody needed a bit as a requirement in certain shows I could maybe justify using a bit. I am not saying I like them or support them and I would never use them because I am not sold that they don't cause pain because from what I have seen, heard and read about they do. I could only justify somebody else using a bit in certain events, but I would still feel for the horse. I do not agree with the fact that because I shared my opinion and it was not what other people agreed with I was antagonized for it and told I have a lack of knowledge. That was rude. I understand your reasons for using a bit and a saddle and I have no problem with that because thats your choice and your prerogative. I also have my own choices too and I never antagonized anybody for their beliefs I only shared my own. So just as a recap: I do not think that if somebody uses a bit that they are cruel. I don't agree with bits and as of now still think that may be uncomfortable and inflict pain. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and choices. I am not antagonizing anybody. I won't ride with a bit or saddle. I will not dislike or have a problem with people who use these things ever. I disagree with the fact that because I was "out of the status quo" if you will that people went all "arms up" Its just my opinion one that I shared because that is part of what you do on a forum.


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## corinowalk

I have nothing really to add to this thread that I haven't said before. I ride in a bit. A curb bit even. I like it that way and the horses I ride like it that way. For as many horses as I have seen be reluctant to take a bit, I have seen that many get hurt by a rider hauling on a 'bitless bridle' or a halter. Just saying.

Emily, please hit the enter button for us. I am not saying this in nastyness but I like to read what everyone has to say but when the words and sentences aren't divied up into paragraphs my poor old eyes cannot read it.


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## smrobs

The only thing is that those horses with their mouths in horrible condition, that wasn't caused by the bit, that was caused by the person holding the reins. Rough hands will be rough no matter if you have a spade bit or a nylon halter, rough hands will always cause damage. That was the purpose of my original post was to hopefully make people think about matching the bit (or bitless) they use to their own ability and focus on learning to be soft with their hands and work on training instead of resorting to controlling the horse through pain.


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## wild_spot

> I feel as though your heels are dug and you won't try to look at other peoples opinion at all.


Pot, meet kettle.



> The reason I feel bits inflict pain is because I have seen horses mouths with horrible conditions from bits.


I have seen faces rubbed raw and bleeding from bitless options - But I have never condemned all bitless bridles as uncomfortable and painful. That would be illogical and ignorant.



> I also have my own choices too and *I never antagonized anybody for their beliefs* I only shared my own.


I beg to differ. You stated in your first posts that ALL bits cause pain. Do you think causing pain is cruel? If so, (And I hope so), then you ARE saying that everyone who uses a bit is cruel. Not in so many words but the intent is there.

That is why people are getting frustrated - You haven't said it outright, but it is certainly implied.

*

I'm not swayed either way - I generally ride in bits, but am planning on a bitless for one of my horses for endurance for ease of drinking and eating. I can ride my show horse brideless and bareback, but show him in a bit and saddle. I don't care one bit what other people choose to do with their horses unless it is blatantly cruel. I spend a lot of time educating myself on bit function and mouth conformation and spend a great deal of effort to make sure each of my horses is in the bit that most suits their personality and mouth conformation.


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## EmilyRosie

wild_spot said:


> Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen faces rubbed raw and bleeding from bitless options - But I have never condemned all bitless bridles as uncomfortable and painful. That would be illogical and ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. You stated in your first posts that ALL bits cause pain. Do you think causing pain is cruel? If so, (And I hope so), then you ARE saying that everyone who uses a bit is cruel. Not in so many words but the intent is there.
> 
> That is why people are getting frustrated - You haven't said it outright, but it is certainly implied.
> 
> *
> 
> I'm not swayed either way - I generally ride in bits, but am planning on a bitless for one of my horses for endurance for ease of drinking and eating. I can ride my show horse brideless and bareback, but show him in a bit and saddle. I don't care one bit what other people choose to do with their horses unless it is blatantly cruel. I spend a lot of time educating myself on bit function and mouth conformation and spend a great deal of effort to make sure each of my horses is in the bit that most suits their personality and mouth conformation.


Having somebody manipulate your words "You haven't said it outright, but it is certainly implied." and "You stated in your first posts that ALL bits cause pain. Do you think causing pain is cruel? If so, (And I hope so), then you ARE saying that everyone who uses a bit is cruel. Not in so many words but the intent is there." is very annoying. You are taking my first post and adding to what I've said not when in fact I have changed what I have said because I have actually listened to what others have said which is something you clearly haven't done. Yeah obviously if a bitless doesn't fit it will cause rubbing, but you know what that is if they don't fit bits can cause that irregardless! I am tired of being antagonized by all of you. A person should be able to share their opinion on a forum! If on this forum you can't then maybe I made a mistake by joining. Isn't it free will say what you want? I hadn't been rude to anybody, but now I am tired of not being treated the same respect. I do not like bits. I don't and that won't change. I have exhausted this subject to the nth degree and I have listened to all of your opinions and shared my own and the only reason my opinion is being picked on is because it is different than most other peoples' So if you have a problem with my opinion I don't care because its my opinion and I am entitled to it just like you are to yours. Bits in my mind suck. I do believe they cause the horse discomfort you believe they don't...OKAY Different opinions!! I am not asking you to change and you are not asking me to that is how it goes! Considering that there is no right in the world for anybody to be frustrated with me UNLESS they are trying to change my views which will never happen.


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## wild_spot

I'm sorry you think i'm manipulating your words. I wasn't offended by your words at all - Just pointing out why others may be. You have said numerous times you think all bits cause pain, or did I read wrong? That was all my pbservation was based on. If you believe all bits cause pain, then it logically follows that all those who ride with bits are causing pain. That, and that alone, is why people have taken offense.



> Yeah obviously if a bitless doesn't fit it will cause rubbing, but you know what that is if they don't fit bits can cause that irregardless!


Had nothing to do with fit, and everything to do with bad hands. Bitless can cause just as much pain and discomfort as a bit - bad hands are bad hands, wether attached to a bit, sidepull or halter.



> Considering that there is no right in the world for anybody to be frustrated with me UNLESS they are trying to change my views which will never happen.


Well you seem to be frustrated with me, so are you trying to change my views? 

I don't really care wether you ride your horse in a bit, no bit, nothing at all - As long as you do it well. 

This forum is a fantastic place - only a few people seem to feel attacked, and generally they are the common denominator. 



> I do believe they cause the horse discomfort you believe they don't...


I actually never said anything about wether I believe they cause pain or not. Not sure where you got that idea.

I actually agree somewhat - many horses are in pain because of bits. However it is not the fault of the bit but the person on the other end - Wether it be bad fitting, not taking into account mouth conformation, not understanding how a certain bit works, or plain bad hands. A well fitted bit that is suited to the horses personality and level of training with a sympathetic rider attached to the reins is a wonderful tool. Same goes for bitless - A well fitted bitless option that is suited to the horses personality and level of training with a sympathetic rider attached to the reins is also a great tool.


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## mliponoga

You are so against bits and spurs, but you say that is because of things you have seen and read online. What in particularly have you seen? People ripping on horse's mouths with a curb bit in? People digging their spurs into the side of the horse? Well this isn't what the equipment was meant for believe it or not. As many others have pointed out, it is the idiocy of the rider who is using these devices this way. So therefore what do you actually have against these devices?? Is it the devices or the rides that you are against? 

Bits and spurs are used for refinement, as a couple others have said, you use these to be able to give the slightest cue and get an instant response. I started my horse in a halter, then moved to a hackamore, then moved to a snaffle, and am now just starting to work her back and forth between a snaffle and correctional bit. I will be soon adding spurs to my training as well. While in the halter I could get her to do the same things, I can achieve the same results in a curb bit now using a 1/10 of the pressure with my hands, making my horse look like I barely have to cue her to get her to respond. She's not doing this off pain, she's doing it because she's a horse that needs a very light cue that is being trained properly. I can use spurs with a 1/10 of the pressure and get the same results and using just leg pressures. 

That is the purpose of these devices...you have your opinion of riding bitless and bareback, but that is what works for you, but you are putting down other's training devices because of your personal experience with them. I'm **** sure that any of us that have been defensive in these posts have never caused a horse's mouth to bleed, caused tissue damage, etc. or left scars on their sides from spurs.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

mliponoga said:


> That is the purpose of these devices...you have your opinion of riding bitless and bareback, but that is what works for you, but you are putting down other's training devices because of your personal experience with them. I'm **** sure that any of us that have been defensive in these posts have never caused a horse's mouth to bleed, caused tissue damage, etc. or left scars on their sides from spurs.


Bingo 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny

People aren't "attacking" you because you ride bitless and bareback. There are TONS of other riders on here who do the same who don't get a bit of lip from anyone. Everyone has an opinion and that opinion should be respected; HOWEVER, when you come here spouting off that people who use bits harm their horses, all my respect for you goes out the window. Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge. It isn't the bit that "harms" the horse, it's the hands on the other end. Like someone said above, you can wreck a horse's face in a bitless just as fast as you can wreck their mouth with a bit. it's not about what is on the horse's face or in their mouth,it's about the hands who hold the reins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LusitanoLover

EmilyRosie, you have mentioned several times that you ride without a saddle. Saddles are designed for the horse's comfort. While you are fit, lightweight and agile, riding without a saddle does not cause a horse much discomfort. But for the majority of riders who are getting older, heavier and arthritic and lose their agility because they are stuck in offices every day, riding without a saddle is actually *cruel* to the horse.

A saddle has a gullet. This clears the horse's spine. So the weight of the rider is distributed along the long, strong muscles either side of the horse's back. Conditioning a young horse for riding is all about strengthening these muscles. When you ride without a saddle, your weight is pressing directly on to the horses spine. Also, as you get less agile, it becomes more difficult to maintain balance as your body does not respond as quickly. Unbalanced riders are extremely uncomfortable for horses, but a saddle will assist the rider to maintain balance and that increases comfort for the horse.

When I backed my first pony - I was in my 20s, I wasn't lucky enough to have a horse of my own until I could afford to buy and keep it for myself - I was filled with trepidation. Even tho' I had spend years ground training him, I wondered how he would take it. He was fine, and stayed fine, did seem to be really pleased about it. 

Now, many years later, I have started enough youngsters to realise that for the majority of horses, being ridden is just a big "so what?". Ride them, don't ride them, most of them don't care (provided they are not locked in a stall 24/7). It is just not a big issue because it is not important to them. A lot of working horses do really seem to love their work. I had one pony who gave every appearance of trying to put her own tack on. That was very funny to watch.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

There is a common theme here, Emily, that you should be taking away from all of this, which many of us have mentioned...it's not the equipment itself that harms the horse, it is the hands of the rider on the end of the reins/legs, etc. If you don't know how to properly use a bit (by NOT ripping on the horse's mouth, as others have mentioned they are for REFINED cues, barely there and hardly noticeable), then you shouldn't be using a bit. At the same time, if you're going to do the same thing in a bitless which uses pressure on the face for the cues, you are going to have the same problem. 

The bottom line is that as Sunny mentioned, people take offense when you make blanket statements like "All bits are painful"...that would be like me saying "All bitless bridles cause pain and I believe they are terrible, so I don't use them...but YOU can do whatever you want, it's just my opinion"...it's like the last bit is used as a disclaimer so you don't get attacked. If you have a strong opinion as you say you do, that's fine, OWN it...but don't try to hide behind a statement like the above. And be prepared to hear some arguments when you state that something everyone else uses without issue is causing their beloved horses pain and suffering. 

My personal experience is that my horse has no problem with bits, when they are used in my hands or my trainer's hands, or someone else who is light and soft and knows how to use them. BUT I tried her recently in a figure 8 bridle, which uses some of the same pressure that a bitless uses on the face...my horse HATED it! She threw her head around even at the slightest touch and even after a few days of trying it, I still got the same reaction from her....she also hates if you have a regular noseband too tight, you have to leave it loose with her. It's her personal preference, because every horse is different. She hates pressure on her nose/face...so a bitless would never work for her. She has no issues with her bit though. It's what works for her. But you will never hear me telling everyone else that figure 8 bridles and all bridles that use pressure like that are bad and cause pain. They just don't work for MY own horse -- doesn't mean they won't work for others. 

I hope this thread doesn't leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you never post here again...this is one of the best horse forums out there, and I personally have made great friends on here and learned a lot. You just need to realize that when blanket statements are made, others are going to get defensive. If you're okay with that (doesn't seem like you are from your posts though), then fine make them all day long, some do on here. But if you just want to learn and share your thoughts, please understand the difference between your personal opinion/what works for you and your horses and blanket statements categorizing others' methods/equipment as painful/bad for their own horses. Each horse, after all, is an individual just like us


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## nrhareiner

Let say it this way. People get shot and die more often then I would like to see. However it is not the guns fault. Guns to do not kill people people kill people. If it was not with a gun it would be a knife or a bat or something else. Same with bits. 

It is not the bit but the person on the other side of the reins. Like I have said before. I can do the same amount of damage with a bit-less bridle as I can with a snaffle as I can with a Cathedral Port curb bit. It is not the bit it is the rider and how they use their hands.


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## EmilyRosie

As I have stated many times I am not trying to change anybody's opinion. I have said several times that just because somebody uses a bit doesn't mean they are awful to their horse. I have also said its not my way or no way. You guys are taking little bits of what I have said and making it so that it sounds like that is all I have said. That is wrong. " I hope this thread doesn't leave such a sour taste in your mouth that you never post here again. " If you love this forum as much as you say you do then why do all of you attack people and pick apart their posts grabbing only the parts that peak your interests. 

I say Just my opinion because it is and I have tons of friends who ride with bits and we get along great you are all acting like if somebody uses a bit I would loathe them. That is incorrect. I am tired of this and if you think that I am "spouting off" explain this " Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge." defend that. Also for my answer its throughout this whole post.

And for the last "its the hands sentence" It is your right to think that so go ahead, but I don't personally believe that. I am not saying ALL bits cause pain and discomfort, but I am saying that I think horses (if they knew there was an alternative) would like bitless more. For instance, " I 
started my horse in a halter, then moved to a hackamore, then moved to a snaffle, and am now just starting to work her back and forth between a snaffle and correctional bit. I will be soon adding spurs to my training as well. " I don't agree with this training method is isn't something I would do, but that is me that is my opinion. By me saying "I believe that having a bit may cause discomfort in a horses mouth. " That is NOT at all categorizing everybody who uses a bit. 

I am tired of this and if you think that I am "spouting off" explain this " Because, believe it or not, that does show your lack of knowledge." defend that. I am supposed to share my opinions???? Also this " I can achieve the same results in a curb bit now using a 1/10 of the pressure with my hands." See this is what starts to bother me you are changing to a different bit that is more than even the simpler bits because you don't have to add as much pressure? Okay so with bits or bitless you have to add more pressure....so what? 

Just as you say I cannot say that bits cause pain because I don't have a "horses mouth" is just the same for you you can't be sure it doesn't hurt them. So why take the chance? If you need to use a bit use the simple bit the snaffle. See? I'm not stubborn. I am giving suggestions for which bits to use whereas none of you except for Hoofprints in the sand have even debated (or at least said if you had) tried a bitless and (nhariener) and even then (directed to hoofprints in the sand) How long did you give your horse to get used to the bitless? How long did you give your horse to adjust to a bit? I bet the bit is longer. I have a lot of horse knowledge as well thank you so coming on here and constantly being told "lack of knowledge" is rude, insensitive and very annoying.


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## nrhareiner

Here is a prime example of where you can get starting with a bit. Continue to school with a bit. You do not train this this is what training gets you in the end. It starts with the under standing of how to get here. Bit or no bit. You MUST under stand how to train with what you have. A git gives you a way of cuing with less presser and a faster response.

Does not matter what you use it can still be hurtful to the horse in the wrong hands. I know people who ride in halters and they put more pressure on their horses face then I do with my Cathedral port bit. NH is huge around here and yet I have never seen a well trained horse who works of a light rein trained that way. They are all bouncing around on the horse pulling on the horses face which they think is fine b/c it is not a bit. They are kicking their horse which they think is find b/c they do not have spurs on. In the end their horse dose not work well for them so they go home and put the horse in a round pen and run it in circle for an hour thinking they will end up with a more willing partner.

Forgot to add. Yes Stacy rides with spurs.


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## EmilyRosie

You know what yes she is a brilliant ride and I love that she has such a bond that she can do that with her horse, but I have seen people who ride with no bit being able to ride with nothing too. I don't think riding with a bit had anything to do with that. *I was never trying to offend anybody. I am sorry that any of you took it that way because believe it or not I didn't join this forum for this or too offend anybody. I personally don't agree with bits, but never meant for anybody to feel attacked because they wear one. We all are on this forum because we love our horses and we want to learn more about them so that we can develop more of a relationship with them. That is what a forum is for. A community for us to grow with our horses isn't it? So if any of you were personally offended then that is not the way I intended it to be. It is a misunderstanding and if so I am sorry that that took place. *


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## Heartland

lencoo12 said:


> I agree with everything you've said. Recently I came under fire at a riding club meeting for riding my 10 year old QH gelding in a plain "O" ring snaffle bit. This gal is a "trainer", so therefor knows everything. She said if my horse wanted to, that he could run off with me. I reminded her that no bit can guarentee a horse to stop- that training does that, and hanging a bigger/heavier bit in a horse's face doesn't do anything but sweep the issue under the rug. That shut her up. ​


 
I think you accidentally messed up the quotting box. This is my quote from page #1. :wink:


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## nrhareiner

I am not at all offended by what you said. My point in responding to it is to correct what you have said or implied so the next person who comes on and is new to horses will get all the info. 

Bits do not hurt horses in and of them selves. Bit-less is not a bridle that will never hurt a horse. It will. Same as a bit. Just in a different area of the horses head. It is not the bit or lack their of. It is not the spur or lack their of. It is the hands on the other side of the reins. I have seen people who ride in a halter hurt their horse more then I have ever hurt a horse with a bit. They do not have the hands to even be riding a horse yet they THINK b/c they do not use a bit they do not need to improve their hands.

It is not about a bit or no bit. It is about the rider.

I use a bit b/c I can use less of a cue. I can get my horse to perform with barely moving my hand. This is my end goal. Just like Stacys end goal was showing her horses bridleless and no she was no the first to show a reiner bridleless. That honer goes to Rocky Dare.

However take a look at the end of the video when she gets ready to go out. She puts a bridle back on her horse and yet it has a bit on the end.


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## EmilyRosie

nrhareiner said:


> I am not at all offended by what you said. My point in responding to it is to correct what you have said or implied so the next person who comes on and is new to horses will get all the info.
> 
> Bits do not hurt horses in and of them selves. Bit-less is not a bridle that will never hurt a horse. It will. Same as a bit. Just in a different area of the horses head. It is not the bit or lack their of. It is not the spur or lack their of. It is the hands on the other side of the reins. I have seen people who ride in a halter hurt their horse more then I have ever hurt a horse with a bit. They do not have the hands to even be riding a horse yet they THINK b/c they do not use a bit they do not need to improve their hands.
> 
> It is not about a bit or no bit. It is about the rider.
> 
> I use a bit b/c I can use less of a cue. I can get my horse to perform with barely moving my hand. This is my end goal. Just like Stacys end goal was showing her horses bridleless and no she was no the first to show a reiner bridleless. That honer goes to Rocky Dare.
> 
> However take a look at the end of the video when she gets ready to go out. She puts a bridle back on her horse and yet it has a bit on the end.



I agree to some extent the rider can be the damage not the equipment, however I also do not believe in bits and that is fine we are both entitled to our own opinions. I shared mine and you shared yours. That is all there is too it. Now somebody can come read your opinion and mine and based on their knowledge make up their own mind. End of story.


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## LusitanoLover

nrhareiner said:


> .... put the horse in a round pen and run it in circle for an hour thinking they will end up with a more willing partner.


 Well they do. The horse is too exhausted to object to anything. :lol:


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## nrhareiner

LusitanoLover said:


> Well they do. The horse is too exhausted to object to anything. :lol:



That just seems to be the mentality of a lot of NH, Tree hugging, PETA type people. In stead of training them they want to be friends with the animal and in the end they think the animal will do what they want b/c they are friends. They think running the animal in a circle will bond the horse to them. Animals do not want friends they want leaders. Joining up and banding does not equal a leader.


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## wild_spot

> I am giving suggestions for which bits to use whereas none of you except for Hoofprints in the sand have even debated (or at least said if you had) tried a bitless and (nhariener) and even then (directed to hoofprints in the sand) How long did you give your horse to get used to the bitless? How long did you give your horse to adjust to a bit? I bet the bit is longer.


Did you miss the part where I said I can ride my show horse bridleless, and plan on going bitless on my pony for endurance? I can ride every one of my horses out in a halter.

People here have no issue with bitless. None. Some of us do it or are planning on doing it.


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## EmilyRosie

Okay you know what what is it all of you want me too say? I have a feeling no matter what I say everybody will still be freaking out. I said " 
I was never trying to offend anybody. I am sorry that any of you took it that way because believe it or not I didn't join this forum for this or too offend anybody. I personally don't agree with bits, but never meant for anybody to feel attacked because they wear one. We all are on this forum because we love our horses and we want to learn more about them so that we can develop more of a relationship with them. That is what a forum is for. A community for us to grow with our horses isn't it? So if any of you were personally offended then that is not the way I intended it to be. It is a misunderstanding and if so I am sorry that that took place." How can people still be angry after I have said that? Wild spot this conversation/post had nothing to do with you that is why I didn't mention you in it.http://www.horseforum.com/#ixzz11zhAXyrP​


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## LusitanoLover

nrhareiner said:


> Animals do not want friends they want leaders.


 I disagree, but only slightly. What they want is protectors and guides. In other words, are you a stallion or a mare? Because a stallion protects but rarely leads - he drives his herd when he wants to move it. But a mare does lead, not in a hierarchical sense, because the lead changes from individual to individual, but as a guide, here is the best grass, here is the water, here is shade. Domestication is a survival strategy, it is a symbiotic relationship. There is a saying in England "Fair exchange is no theft" and that is what our relationship with horses is, a fair exchange. We make certain demands, in in exchange, they are (largely) kept safe and well, and fed and watered and are able to reproduce successfully.

I am with you all the way concerning training. All the classical methods are the same in essence, gradual progression until you have a horse that you can trust with your life, because its reactions to your requests are lightening fast and completely reliable. As you can see, I breed Lusitanos, horses that are used extensively for classical high school work (as well as cattle herding). But when I read those wonderful books, HACKAMORE REINSMAN and 
REINSMAN OF THE WEST by Ed Connell, I was struck by how the basic principles of training are the same, and really haven't changed since Xenophon.


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## mom2pride

EmilyRosie said:


> And for the last "its the hands sentence" It is your right to think that so go ahead, but I don't personally believe that. I am not saying ALL bits cause pain and discomfort, but I am saying that I think horses (if they knew there was an alternative) would like bitless more. .


I'm not going to get into the full on debate going on between you and others, but I will disagree with your feeling on how your hands effect, or don't effect the horse, and his behavior. Please don't take this like I'm trying to pick on you...this IS just MY observations, and experience. 

I just got back from a Clinton Anderson clinic, and his main horse that was being schooled, is a horse that is always tense, tosses his head, jigs, etc...you name it, he does it. However, Guess what 'solved' his problems? Taking the pressure off his face/mouth. Most people use their hands to stop or otherwise slow a horse down. His owner admitted, that that is what she does...The horse's behavior was in his owners hands, literally. What the clinician did was simply work on bending the horse laterally, get him to move his feet willingly, and to stop when he sat down (or one reined him, if he didn't listen to his seat)...not once did he lean on the bit, or try to pull the horse to a stop...the horse calmed down, his head came down, he relaxed, and he stopped wanting to move forward everytime the rider asked him to stop...again, the horse's behavior was directly tied to the rider's hands. 

So yes, a horse's behavior, whether good or bad, or anywhere inbetween can and often times will be related to how his handler handles his mouth/face (bitless). I have had horses who respond better bitless, and others, like my current mare who seem to prefer her snaffle bits to pressure on her face (bitless). Does she respond bitless? Sure, but she's NOT as relaxed, so that is what makes the difference for me...and I broke her in bitless so it's not like I didn't have time to evaluate how she performed (rope halter, as per norm for me when breaking in a horse). 

Everytime I step on a horse, whether it's one I'm training, or my own mare, keep a mental check on how my hands are handling the horse...ideally the only thing the reins should 'control' are the horse's head and neck; your seat and legs are what control his shoulder, ribcage, and hips...ultimately all forward, backward, sideways, etc, movement. :wink:


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## nrhareiner

mom2pride said:


> I'm not going to get into the full on debate going on between you and others, but I will disagree with your feeling on how your hands effect, or don't effect the horse, and his behavior. Please don't take this like I'm trying to pick on you...this IS just MY observations, and experience.
> 
> I just got back from a Clinton Anderson clinic, and his main horse that was being schooled, is a horse that is always tense, tosses his head, jigs, etc...you name it, he does it. However, Guess what 'solved' his problems? Taking the pressure off his face/mouth. Most people use their hands to stop or otherwise slow a horse down. His owner admitted, that that is what she does...The horse's behavior was in his owners hands, literally. What the clinician did was simply work on bending the horse laterally, get him to move his feet willingly, and to stop when he sat down (or one reined him, if he didn't listen to his seat)...not once did he lean on the bit, or try to pull the horse to a stop...the horse calmed down, his head came down, he relaxed, and he stopped wanting to move forward everytime the rider asked him to stop...again, the horse's behavior was directly tied to the rider's hands.
> 
> So yes, a horse's behavior, whether good or bad, or anywhere inbetween can and often times will be related to how his handler handles his mouth/face (bitless). I have had horses who respond better bitless, and others, like my current mare who seem to prefer her snaffle bits to pressure on her face (bitless). Does she respond bitless? Sure, but she's NOT as relaxed, so that is what makes the difference for me...and I broke her in bitless so it's not like I didn't have time to evaluate how she performed (rope halter, as per norm for me when breaking in a horse).
> 
> Everytime I step on a horse, whether it's one I'm training, or my own mare, keep a mental check on how my hands are handling the horse...ideally the only thing the reins should 'control' are the horse's head and neck; your seat and legs are what control his shoulder, ribcage, and hips...ultimately all forward, backward, sideways, etc, movement. :wink:


I agree it is 100% in the riders hands as to how the horse reacts to a bit or lack their of. Like I have said 1000 times. It is not the bit. It is the hands. You can hurt a horse just as easy in a bit-less bridle as you can with a bit. Maybe even more so as you are putting pressure on their nose and poll. Damage or soreness in the pole area is one of the biggest problems of horses being out in other areas of their body and stiff and tense.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

mom2pride exactly...what works for one horse won't necessarily work for another.

not all horses like bitless...mine doesn't. not all like bits. but mine will go in a halter and lead rope but she gets confused because the cues are kind of garbled...whereas with a bit she understands the tiniest movement.

bottom line...a bit sitting in a horses mouth causes no pain. but a heavy handed rider yanking on it...yes. a bitless bridle sitting on a horses face does not cause pain...but a heavy handed rider yanking on the horses face...yes.

I think that point should be drilled into everyone's head by now  hopefully certain people on here can take that tid bit away from all the rest of the melodramatic posts 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Emily, I don't mean this as an attack, but a valid question. 

What do you do when you have a horse that dislikes face pressure? I have two examples.

I tried Soda in a bitless bridle as he wasn't comfortable or happy in the bit I was using. He was very unhappy with it and fought it. He was actually significantly worse in the bitless than the bit he didn't like. I've posted the story so many times that I don't really want to get into it again, but if you would like it's further back in this thread. I went back to a bit, but continued my research and bought several different bits until I found one he likes. 

My new pony, Lily is extremely sensitive to face pressure and will literally flip out if it's a hair too much. I'm talking rearing all the way up in the air repeatedly. She is a danger to herself and others when this happens. Currently I'm using a loose ring snaffle right now on her and while it's taken her awhile to "get it" she hasn't flipped out with it. This leads me to believe that she is happier with a bit in her mouth than pressure on her face. I will probably attempt a bitless option with her at some point to see if it's viable, but do I force her into something that apparently hurts her either mentally or physically. Or do I stay with what she appears to like?


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## mls

MN Tigerstripes said:


> What do you do when you have a horse that dislikes face pressure?


Ride primarily off your seat and legs. Yes, really.


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## mom2pride

I think a point that should be brought out, here, is that there are several members on this forum, and this thread who are also trainers (myself included); people who have worked with not just a handful of horses but hundreds, and in some cases thousands...I don't think "most" significant conclusions can be drawn between bitless and bitted from folks who only work with a few horses here and there. I'm not saying this to be condescending either, so PLEASE don't hear it that way, but there is a big difference between opinions that involve 10 horses and 100. Which one would I choose between? The one that's worked with hundreds. Why? Because there has been a very large variety in the types of horses worked with, how they handle, their attitudes, etc. Personally, I start bitless (rope halter), and transition to a snaffle bit, and if I or an owner will be showing the horse, a curb later on. It's what's gotten the most "level" results over the years for me.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

mom2pride said:


> there is a big difference between opinions that involve 10 horses and 100. Which one would I choose between? The one that's worked with hundreds. Why? Because there has been a very large variety in the types of horses worked with, how they handle, their attitudes, etc.


So very true...that's simple statistics and sample sizes at work :wink:


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## MN Tigerstripes

mls said:


> Ride primarily off your seat and legs. Yes, really.


My point was, do I put a bitless bridle on that horse or do I use the bit? 

I already ride primarily off of my seat and legs so that really isn't the issue. I'm not using the bit to turn or stop my horse. For whoa I stop my seat for turning I weight my seat and signal with my legs. The bit is used, but it is with gentle contact. He will back with the correct pressure from my seat and the only thing the reins are doing is not moving.I don't really think his problem with the bitless bridle is linked to me not riding with my seat/legs. For the record his bit is a double jointed snaffle so it isn't like it's a harsh bit (in the correct hands of course) that magically solved all my problems.


Edit - Good point Mom2pride.


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## mliponoga

Very good post Mom2pride, and so very true, I won't say I'm a very experienced trainer, but I have at least aided in training 100 horses, and I hope to continue to grow those numbers with the most knowledge I can obtain which is a big reason I'm here. I will say when I started training I was ill knowledged and didn't know much, but throw me on any horse and I was confident to get it to stop rearing, bucking, bolting, etc. But could I access why they were doing so? Nope! 

But anyway, with experience comes knowledge and vice versa. I won't say that there are trainers out there better than us just because they've trained 1000's of horses, that'd be completely wrong knowing how some people train.


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## EmilyRosie

Horses feel face pressure in bridles with bits too. I have seen people like the youtube video nahreiner posted and I don't understand why bits are needed. I am honestly trying to understand and to gain more knowledge. If you are saying that a bit is to refine a cue how come you have to use it? Because you are already getting what you want without it right? I don't understand. Is it just so that you don't have to pull as hard or something? I am not being rude all I am trying to do is gain knowledge on the subject now. So my main question is if you are already getting the response you need why do you have to add something to refine a cue? I don't understand that.


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## EmilyRosie

nrhareiner* is the name I meant sorry.


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Horses feel face pressure in bridles with bits too. I have seen people like the youtube video nahreiner posted and I don't understand why bits are needed. I am honestly trying to understand and to gain more knowledge. If you are saying that a bit is to refine a cue how come you have to use it? Because you are already getting what you want without it right? I don't understand. Is it just so that you don't have to pull as hard or something? I am not being rude all I am trying to do is gain knowledge on the subject now. So my main question is if you are already getting the response you need why do you have to add something to refine a cue? I don't understand that.


Well it has been a bit but I am going to guess you are talking about the video of Stacy riding bareback and bridleless?? 

If so she did not start that horse that way. She started the horse in a bit (snaffle) and then to a curb bit and progressed to riding with just leg and seat and then dropped the bridle and went on until she gets to that point and not ever horse will get there no matter what.

Your horse might be responding to the cues you are giving him. However I will guarantee you that a reiner has a lot more cues and more refined cues then what your horse has. They are much more responsive to the cues given from the leg and seat. When I say refined I am talking moving your hand about an inch and the horse responding to you instantly. Not in a step or stride. I am talking the instant you pick up on the rein at any speed or gate. You get that type of refinement from a properly used bit and spur. Bit-less bridles do not give you the correct response from the rein to the horse to get that. The horse can not feel the slightest movement of your hand. The bit-less bridle is not made to give you that.


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## Ray MacDonald

Yep, just means a quicker (and sometimes better) response from your horse, also means you don't have to use as much pressure as using a bitless bridle or halter.


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## EmilyRosie

Okay, but my sister doesn't ever use a bit and she can ride with no bridle and no saddle. So I guess I just have a different view on that. It's really interesting and good though to hear everybody else's opinions so thanks.


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay, but my sister doesn't ever use a bit and she can ride with no bridle and no saddle. So I guess I just have a different view on that. It's really interesting and good though to hear everybody else's opinions so thanks.


But at what level. I know several people who ride with out a saddle or a true bridle if one at all. They can get their horses to go and turn to a point and stop but non of them do it well and quickly like what you see with Stacy.

Keep in mind that what I consider a well trained broke horse is going to be very different then what most consider a well trained broke horse. It can come down to a simple a thing as how you define it.


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## wild_spot

Emily -

To show, you want everything you do to cue your horse to be almost invisible. On a well trained western horse, a flick of a pinkie finger can send them into a spin - This is because the curb bit magnifies a small signal on the rein to a larger signal in the mouth. So an invisible movement of the hand becomes a signal the horse can easily decipher and respond to in the mouth.

You can certainly do the same things in a halter or sidepull - But you can't do them with the flick of a finger. You need to open reins and move your whole hand. Do you see what I mean? The bit means the rider has to do less to acheive the same or better result. 

That's all we mean by 'refining'.

*

Riding bitless is great of it works for you. Many horses are indeed happier that way. However performance horses generally DO need a bit. We need signals to be invisible, response to be immediate. 

I plan on eventually riding my Arab mare bitless for endurance. It doesn't matter how big or messy my cues need to be out on the trail.

However when I show her or do any speed events, I will be using a bit, because then I need the more precise communication and refined cues.

Do you see what I mean?


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## beauforever23

i used to use a snaffle bit and my horse used to be so good with it till he realized he could pull through it and he was able to get his tongue over it and run away. had his teeth checked out, had him evaluated by a trainer and he did it with the trainer to. the only thing to do was to change his bit. i use a pelham on him now.. and he does so much better. my horse is very head strong although now with the pelham he's learned to except the bit and relax.


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## EmilyRosie

Okay yes I understand what you all mean by refining now. I realize that for most shows a bit is necessary so I could definitely justify it in that kind of showing. I don't show anymore I haven't shown in a while so I don't know what the exact protocol is for tack. So I guess my question then is in shows that most of you do, do you get judged on how little your cue is?


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## EmilyRosie

I also just wanted to say that I apologize how I acted earlier. I was going through something stressful with one of our horses and instead of asking for opinions I kind of vented in my writing. A while ago we found out one of our horses has a cyst in his eye and cannot jump anymore. The vet recently came out and said it was slightly bigger so if it gets to a certain size it may cause some more serious conditions. He is blind from halfway down on one of his eyes now.


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay yes I understand what you all mean by refining now. I realize that for most shows a bit is necessary so I could definitely justify it in that kind of showing. I don't show anymore I haven't shown in a while so I don't know what the exact protocol is for tack. So I guess my question then is in shows that most of you do, do you get judged on how little your cue is?


The definition of reining is for a horse to be willingly guided with little to no visible cue. So the smaller the cue the better.


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## EmilyRosie

Okay, but is that the only show that you would use a bit in then? Sorry I should have phrased my question differently.


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## nrhareiner

EmilyRosie said:


> Okay, but is that the only show that you would use a bit in then? Sorry I should have phrased my question differently.



NO bits required in just about every type of showing you do. There are some H/J shows that will allow a mechanical hack but they are not the norm.

All western events require a bit. Depending on the age and the event you might be able to use a snaffle but once the horse gets older they must be in a curb bit.


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## EmilyRosie

Okay yeah I guess thats one of the reasons I haven't shown in a while, but I can understand for people who want to show why a bit would be necessary.


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## wild_spot

Correct, most shows require a bit.

I also compete in speed events, and on most horses, the quick response from a bit is needed. Some horses can run these events in hackamores, but they must be very well trained to neck rein and neck rein immediately, which is hard when in a high adrenalin situation.


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## EmilyRosie

Yeah so I guess if somebody did those shows they wouldn't have much of a choice, but for me personally I don't really show much cos of it, but I understand why people do.


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## faye

I totaly agree with the OP (havent read any more then the 1st page) however I would like to point out that even when using a snaffle you NEED to bit according to the conformation of your horses mouth.
So many people bung in a single linked egbut snaffle and then strap the horses mouth closed when the horse objects or they move on to stronger bits. Unfortunatly when they move onto stronger bits they often happen to stumble upon a bit that is better for thier horses mouth shape.

99% or the time if you looked at the shape of your horses mouth you would see the problem.

Stan for example tossed his head, opened his mouth and pulled like a steam train if you put a single jointed bit in him, straight bars he was heavy in the hand. Put a double jointed bit like a french link into his mouth and he was extremely soft and light. This was because of the conformation of his mouth, he had fleshy bars, a huge tongue and a low pallete (roof of his mouth) so every time you took any form of contact on a single joint it stabbed him in the roof of his mouth, makeing him very unhappy. Straight bars didnt leave any room for his tougue so he was heavy. 
He did up to medium level dressage in a french link snaffle, He showed in a low ported show pelham (showing in the UK you have the choice of a pelham or a double and stan did not have room for a double) and was very happy and extremely light in both.


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## EmilyRosie

Yeah so I just for me if I could go bitless I would whenever I can. I understand what you are saying wild spot when you say " 
I also compete in speed events, and on most horses, the quick response from a bit is needed. Some horses can run these events in hackamores, but they must be very well trained to neck rein and neck rein immediately, which is hard when in a high adrenalin situation."

Is it just because your horse has a lot of adrenaline that you would use a bit? ( and because they have to be very well trained the bitless way?) That is where I struggle with bits. I mean for me I don't show because of bits and other reasons, but I do understand that if somebody wanted to show they need a bit I'm not denying that I am just trying to gain all knowledge possible and this seems like a great site to learn from.



http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...-respond-your-bit-62456/page23/#ixzz13W51wsU6​


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## mom2pride

Well most bits aren't made for single rein pressure from one side or the other; that includes hackemores. SO if you want a quick response from the horse, you want a bit that gives you direct rein pressure abilities...the best bits for that, of course are plain snaffle bits (o-rings, d-rings, etc...), not shanked bits. I've never used anything but a snaffle for gaming. 

Now if you have a horse who is really good at neck reining, you could use a hackamore, or curb type bit, and be fine...but the horse "could" get too hyped and run right through those aids, (seen it a million times over the years!) even if he is normally fine with them...just because of the excitement, which would be why a direct rein type bit is the best. I am not one who thinks leverage = control in the case of a gaming horse...I think often times horses that game are way over bitted...I mean do you really need a broken mouthpeice, 10 inch shanks AND a chinstrap and nose band to control a horse going at high speed around poles and barrels? Look at race horses...they are ridden in snaffle bits, across the board...so I don't think that just because you are in a 'high amp' situation that you "need" a heavy bit. 

Other events, like reining, pleasure, etc...all those require some type of curb bit beyond 5 years of age (the horse), but you don't need a 'heavy one'...and there are so many types to choose from...i like to go with the least my horse needs to respond with the least amount of cue from your hand.


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## wild_spot

> Is it just because your horse has a lot of adrenaline that you would use a bit? ( and because they have to be very well trained the bitless way?) That is where I struggle with bits. I mean for me I don't show because of bits and other reasons, but I do understand that if somebody wanted to show they need a bit I'm not denying that I am just trying to gain all knowledge possible and this seems like a great site to learn from.


Keep in mind I only ever ride in a snaffle, usually double jointed.

Yes, the main reason is the adrenalin - In mounted games, you often have to stop or steady while other horses gallop past you full ball. Of course, my aim is for my horse to be soft and attentive all the time, even at pace - but it's the time it takes to get there and the unexpected moments that I want to have that extra bit of refinement and speed in signals.

The other reason is steering - It is hard to get steering cues as precise in a bitless option as a bit - And when you are bending at a flat gallop or aiming to pop a balloon on the ground with a stick, you need to be spot on with your steering and split-second fast. 

I have competed MG in a hackamore - It was hard though, and I couldn't go flat out because of it.


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## JumperDak15

My gelding has gone through many types of bits. First it was a full cheek snaffle, then it was a 3 ring happy mouth, then it was a full cheek snaffle, then a thin o-ring french link. He still likes the o-ring french link, but now he *also* likes a super thin twist bit. This bit is so thin its thinner than my pinky. He seems He does so well in it. But for jumping and most of our flat (if not training for western or training for english flat classes) i ride him in a short shank hackamore. He is fabulous in this hackamore. Great stretches over the jumps, very round, still very strong & powerful but he is A LOT better to jump with the hackamore. With a bit, when we jumped, he would grab the bit and run at the jump. And with the hackamore I dont have to worry. But for the 2 bits he's great in flat with them, which is nice!

He used to be hard in the mouth, and the o-ring french link(made with copper) really softend him up! It took him a long time for him to find the bit he liked and for me to have more proper training. *I think as long as the horse likes the bit & you know how to use it, properly, then why not?*


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## LeahDaisyD

Great thread! And, let me tell you why...
My husband & I are what I would call "adult beginners" and recently acquired our first horses. Levi, a 9 yo draft cross w/ a H/J background came w/ specific bit recommendations for a french link dee ring snaffle, so that is what we use on him. It works fine -- except that he did not appreciate it when I somehow managed to screw up installing the bit into the bridle -- luckily my mantra is to assume that if the horse is having a problem, I am probably screwing something up  

The second horse is a 17 yo TWH mare, Cotton, who kind of happened upon us in a rescue type situation. Unsure of what bit to use and assuming that she needed a "western" type of bit, we listened to the advice of the "expert" at the local feed tack store. I explained that although I rode western (well, mostly bareback) as a kid, my husband and I took lessons as adults with instructors who were also competitive dressage riders, but that we were still beginners. She told us that she had just the perfect bit for us -- her FAVORITE bit -- a bit that worked on most any horse -- a Tom Thumb. Unfortunately, I didn't research the Tom Thumb bit or find this forum until after we tried the bit, and we are **** lucky that it didn't end in tragedy. Although I explained briefly to my husband that this was a LEVERAGED bit and that he needed to have very light hands, he chose to ride as he had learned from his lessons w/ way too much contact for that bit which resulted in a frustrated rider and horse. Everything his hot and mean Swedish instructor taught him is drilled into his brain, yet he never listens to me!!! 

Thank goodness Cotton is an older and very sweet horse, and thank goodness I was there to "fire" my husband and get him off the horse. I was able to ride her just fine in that bit, because I rode Western as a kid and spent my adult English lessons being fussed at for not using enough contact. Eventually, I heard back from the woman Cotton came from, who recommended a short shank walking horse bit or a wonder bit. I ordered a French Link Wonder Bit, but then tried her in the French Link Dee Ring, and she was fine. I had just put the Wonder Bit into her bridle before I read this, and it will now come out, and the regular dee ring french link will go in. This mare does NOT neck rein, so I cannot, based on my limited knowledge, understand why she needs anything besides a mild snaffle -- especially given that we are still "beginners" and she is not going to run off with anyone. 

I am trying to learn more about how she was trained to respond to what cues / aids as she was actually trained and competed in that "Big Lick" TWH stuff and was even the reserve champion for the state of KY in 1995 -- in the under 3 class. Now, let me be clear, I find the Big Lick padded shoes, soring, and long shanked bits to be appalling -- and that whole plantation class to be freakish. But, I would like to UNDERSTAND how she was trained, so that we can provide the clearest and mildest cues.

Unfortunately, we are in a rural area in Southern Mississippi and my only option for working with a professional trainer &/or riding instructor is to trailer the horses, which is what I will be doing once we find and purchase a horse trailer and I learn to pull it. So, right now, we are just riding around in our back pasture (about 8 acres). After the "bit expert" experience, I am dreading trying to find another expert to teach us  I am so grateful that this forum exists and that so many real experts are willing to share thoughtful advice.


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## smrobs

Glad that I was able to help you out . There are a couple of threads in the horse tack/equipment section that detail the different types of snaffles and shanked bits, what are the mildest, what works, what doesn't, and whats practical.

Just to save you some searching, here are the links to those threads if you are interested in reading them.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-snaffle-english-type-bits-36522/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/


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## scrapinpics

Well said, very informative. Thank you.


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## OTTB in training

*Very well said!*

I am glad you posted this. My horse is usually very responsive, but had been having problems responding. I was particularly nervous on the trail. Some people recommended a harsher bit than the single snaffle he was in. I realized that the bit was pinching him. If I had listened to the well meaning idiots, my poor horse would be in a harsh bit because of my stupidity. Instead, he is in a happy mouth mullen bit and doing very well.


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## paintluver

After reading this post I am going to try Romeo on a snaffle bit. I currently have been using a Tender touch (That is what my old BO told me to use on him...) He gives to pressure, breaks at the poll, flexes, but he is still learning (re-learning) how to go off of legs, and how to neck rein. But I would like to see if I could game him in a snaffle bit. Thank you for this thread Smrobs!


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## MightyEventer

question time! 


I do agree that well trained horses should go in a snaffle. In my situation I find it very hard to train my horse to listen to me when I ask him to slow down...We ride in a mylar boo-shay(no idea how to spell it D on the flat, and a bubble bit ( rein on the big snaffle part) at home for jumping...I use the bubble/elevator bit because at shows, for the cross country phase, I have to attach a bottom rein so I can control him since lately it has become a bit dangerous. I have tried to work with him at home in listening to me when I ask him to come back to me but he always listens for the most part and is an angel...Even xc schooling he is totally fine and doesn't run away from the bit. The only time I have a problem with him is when I'm out on course at a horse show and I'm stuck with an almost uncontrollable as well as an unbalanced horse resulting in run-outs. 

Any tips on how to fix this? I'm honestly stumped with it...Adding the bottom rein and a curb chain helps 110%. With that said I have hopes that soon in the future my horse will respect me and will mature enough with my training that I will be able to go back to something a bit more mild. 

Do you think it is wrong to use a stronger bit for my situation?


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## Ne0n Zero

Fantastic post, Smrobs.
Beau goes fantastically in a bitless bridle, and when I do use a bit, he's in a french link contoured loose ring, or a mylar loose ring, and he rides like a dream.
I've never had to use anything harsher, although when I first got him they had a slow twist eggbutt snaffle on him. As soon as I could get to the tack store, he was put into a single link smooth full cheek and from there, we moved on to a rubber d-ring snaffle and then the loose ring, which is my all time favorite on him. 
He does occasionally have issues with stopping/slowing down when he gets really excited, but that's when we go back to basics and work in an enclosed environment and do a little refresher course on his whoa.


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## ponypower

Personally, I think bits are are a waste of time. There is no need for them, if you can ride - use your seat to control the horse. Like i've said in other posts, the first thing I do when faced with a difficult horse is remove the bit, more times than not a horse that runs, runs in-to the bit, take it away and they've got nothing to run in to.


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## MN Tigerstripes

:roll: Yup you're right, everyone who rides in a bit can't really ride.

Gotta love it when people over-generalize.

ETA - A horse can run very nicely into a bitless bridle also, it's far from impossible for them to brace against it.


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## Sunny

MN Tigerstripes said:


> A horse can run very nicely into a bitless bridle also, it's far from impossible for them to brace against it.


Very true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

When I have a horse who is rushing and not staying consistent with speed. There are several things you can do however one of the best I have found over the years is every time they start to speed up do a 45% turn. Then set the speed the second they start to speed up turn again. This gets the horse waiting to respond to you. If they think you are going to ask for something every time they speed up they will start waiting on you and not try to get ahead of you. Also make sure you change what direction you turn. Keep them thinking.


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## nrhareiner

ponypower said:


> Personally, I think bits are are a waste of time. There is no need for them, if you can ride - use your seat to control the horse. Like i've said in other posts, the first thing I do when faced with a difficult horse is remove the bit, more times than not a horse that runs, runs in-to the bit, take it away and they've got nothing to run in to.


Sure that is why there are so many million $$ riders that use bits. They are just out there wasting their time.


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## ponypower

Ok, so that did sound did sound like a major over-generalisation and not what I meant at all. Obviously bits have their place, I just had a real bad experience recently and it's kinda put me off for life at the moment! 

I totally respect riders that can, well - ride! But I'm stuck in a job surrounded by people who's solution to stopping a horse being difficult is to stick a stronger bit their mouth, which obviously makes them hard and so they move on to yet another stronger bit. As I'm not a confrontational person, I'm finding the only way to get it through to them is to do things my own way and make a point of not using a bit at all -these are the people I am referring to, I did not mean to insult anyone! As you can imagine this has left me very unpopular and It's nice to be able to come on here, vent and hear other peoples opinions without the confrontation. I am a quite person who just wants the best for the horses and pupils I work with. 

Sorry again for any offence caused.


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## MN Tigerstripes

:lol: I understand where you are coming from. I think it's a common mistake in the horse world to overbit (or over-bridle, refering to some of the nastier bitless options) instead of train. Thank you for being big enough to clarify AND apologize. 

I've stated my opinion again and again on the whole bitless/bit issue, so I won't go over it yet again. Welcome to HF Ponypower!


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## ponypower

Thanks, yeah I think it's important for people to understand that bitless bridles can be just as brutal as a harsh bit in wrong hands. I'm just sick of seeing lack of understanding spoil perfectly good horses.


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## mom2pride

I think the biggest problem with most people and bitting or overbitting is pure lack of education; it's easier to listen to your peers, when they give "advice" rather than search it out for yourself and decide what is best for you and your particular horse. And most people aren't going to listen to someone that they don't know, as a general rule; sure you can offer suggestions, and even 'prove it' with your own horse's well trained responses, but that doesn't mean they will respect that...most people have to have the poop hit the ceiling, and be at their 'worst' to take advice that seemed poor at first. Even myself, at one point, just automatically trained a horse in a snaffle, then graduated to a curb, and some of those horses only responded to the curb later on...now I train and ride in a snaffle (or rope halter), and use the curb for showing mainly.

It was interesting, because last night I was watching some of the final's rodeo on tv, and almost every single horse was in a snaffle bit...not curbs like you normally see...I think that may make a big difference in how some people veiw snaffles, especially western riders, because the curb bit is the 'norm'.


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## nrhareiner

mom2pride said:


> It was interesting, because last night I was watching some of the final's rodeo on tv, and almost every single horse was in a snaffle bit...not curbs like you normally see...I think that may make a big difference in how some people veiw snaffles, especially western riders, because the curb bit is the 'norm'.



While I think it is great that they are using other bits like a Snaffle I do not think it will change any thing with western event riders. If you are going to show western you must use a curb bit, with very very few exceptions. So it really does not matter what others might or might not do.


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## smrobs

Reiner, I think she was likely talking about the speed events like barrels and poles where most of the horses really _should_ be kept in snaffles.


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## mom2pride

nrhareiner said:


> While I think it is great that they are using other bits like a Snaffle I do not think it will change any thing with western event riders. If you are going to show western you must use a curb bit, with very very few exceptions. So it really does not matter what others might or might not do.


Maybe not, but I found it very interesting, mainly because of the association of curb bits and western riding.


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## nrhareiner

smrobs said:


> Reiner, I think she was likely talking about the speed events like barrels and poles where most of the horses really _should_ be kept in snaffles.


That I do agree with. Most of the riders at least at the lower levels of speed events do not put the fundamentals onto their horses like they should.


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## ponypower

Fill me in here guys...I've only ever shown in English (in England many years ago) where a lesser bit was appreciated as a sign of good horsemanship and control. I'm a bit confused as to why a curb has to be used in western show circuits, when as far as I can figure out the majority of riders train in a snaffle or halter?


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## Sunny

I am not educated in Western, either, so maybe someone can enlighten me on this.

In what Western events aside from WP do you _have_ to use a curb?
Reining? Cutting? Roping?
I know in timed events you can use a snaffle, but I only know that because I showed in that discipline for a few years. (In a full cheek. :wink: )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

I think you use a curb in higher levels (or past certian ages) in Western events (reining, cutting, pleasure, etc) to show that the horse has a certian level of training. If used correctly a curb allows you to give your horse a smaller less visible signal than a snaffle..... I think. I'm sure Nrhareiner can correct me. I don't know a ton about Western showing.


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## Sunny

Yeah, I know the reasons/functions, I'm just not sure what events require curbs.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Oops, misunderstood you. I'm not completely sure of the events


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## nrhareiner

In western events horses are shown one handed. There are a few events for aged horses (Under 5/6) that allow snaffles or Bossals. However with reining they do not exist. All shows (with maybe one or 2 exceptions) must be shown one handed in a curb bit.

A curb bit is not about power force. It is about subtle cues of communication. With a snaffle to get your cue you need to make contact with the horses mouth. Which means a tight rein and a lot of hand movement. Which will get you marked down a lot in a western event. It is about making it look like you are doing nothing. I use a Mylar Cathedral port bit on my finished reiners. Not b/c I need it for control or to get them to stop but b/c I use use a lot less of a cue for the horse to feel it. Instead of moving my hand 5-6 inch I can move it 1/2 an inch and get the results I want. So with very long reins this comes in very very handy. I show with 9 foot reins so you can just imagine the slack in the reins between my hand and the bit.

Same with other western events. The ideal is to make it look like you are not doing anything. Not cuing the horses at all or at least very little. A reiner by definition is a horse who is willingly guided. Using a lot of cues and moving of the hands to get them to do what you want is not show that the horse is willing.


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## ponypower

Very interesting, thank you! I guess one of the main differences between English and Western showing - other than the obvious use of two handed/neck reining is the way the horse is controlled. A lot of the people I ride with are forever telling me how harsh western bits look - I have tried to explain to them time and again that its' because of the subtle cues rather than the constant pressure you'd have in an English bit, if you rode and English horse in one then yes, it would be brutal, but because of the tiny amount of pressure put on by the Western rider it is not. Unfortunately I have nothing to back this up with as I ride bitless so your info is really helpful!


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## Ray MacDonald

Yepp^ good post, it's always the hands not the bit.


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## WalkerLady

Fantastic thread, I'm learning a lot. Several people have mentioned the shape of the horse's mouth being one factor in determining the right bit. How exactly can I figure out how my horses' mouths are shaped? What am I looking for? Would their dentist or vet be able to tell me?


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## azhorseluvr1222

First of all I want to so I am so glad I found this message board, all the info has been very useful. Second I am thankful I decided to read this thread. Now I hope I don't get jumped on but I have been riding in a tom thumb bit and it is what I was taught to ride in and I had thought it was working well but after reading this thread some of the issues I have with both the horses I ride ( head tossing, leaning into the bit, tail swishing and not all on the same horse). Maybe its thier bit and my lack of understanding them. It is why I am on the message board in the first place. The 28 year old QH gelding my children and I both ride and the roughly 8 year old TB cross gelding I am riding are the horses in question. Skeeter the old boy "leans" as I have read some describe it and pulls the reins right of the girls hands, what I am thinking is the bit that we use is a little harsh for kids to be learning to ride because he doesn't do this to me as I probably have softer hands. It isn't he lack of training but my children but what would you suggest for kids that are learning to ride? We have used a side pull but he just ignores it, he doesn't take off or anything, just stands there. Brown the younger horse tosses his heads, swishes his tail and does cow kicks as I call them. He does good in walk and trot but anything more than that he gets a little fussy. Should I try a milder bit. I am not worried about him running away with me or bucking he listens pretty well most of the time. We just started together about a month ago and I am still figuring him out, like and dislikes. Sorry for the very long post but this thread really got me thinking. I know I have a lot of leaning to do but it seems the whole issue of a bit is a good place to start. IMO it seems like if the horse is comfortable he is more willing and relaxed and then we can focus on working together. Again sorry so long :?


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## Ray MacDonald

Now, I'm no expert but I think you should try a different bit. A snaffle would be best. Also be sure he isn't in any kind of pain such as back pain, neck pain, leg pain or hoof pain.


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## wild_spot

Walkerlady - you can learn a lot just by looking/feeling. Open the mouth, look at the size of the tongue, and how low the roof of the mouth is (palate). Stick a finger in and see how much room there is. Does he have very fleshy lips?

Basically just investigate on your own then try a bit of trial and error with different bits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

I don't think the question is so much is which bit so much as you. Can you get your horse to respond to a certain bit? I personally ride bitless and do not agree with bits, but having said that if somebody chooses to ride with a bit I believe a snaffle is best. A snaffle is easily controlled and easiest on a horse besides bitless in my opinion. Bits work because once inserted into the horses mouth they put pressure on the sides of the horses mouth depending where you pull (which is very sensitive). So I think that a snaffle is best just because it puts the least amount of stress on sensitive areas. I have yet to meet a horse that can't go bitless let alone a snaffle.


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## Sunny

Just to inform you, not all snaffles only put pressure on the bars. Some have tongue pressure, some have palate pressure--each bit is different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

Also a snaffle is not necessarily the gentlest of all bits. Nor is bit-less. Again it is the rider. Not the bit. I can do just as much damage to a horse bit-less as I can with a Cathedral port Mylar. It is not the bit it is the rider and how well they use their hands. I ride/show with a Cathedral port or correction bit (I use different bits all the time) and the bit rarely touches my horses mouth.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Nrhareiner I know that point gets made all the time on here but someone should sticky it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> Just to inform you, not all snaffles only put pressure on the bars. Some have tongue pressure, some have palate pressure--each bit is different.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I actually do know that every bit is different, but thanks for checking :lol: I am aware of tongue and palate pressure and I disagree with it.


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> Also a snaffle is not necessarily the gentlest of all bits. Nor is bit-less. Again it is the rider. Not the bit. I can do just as much damage to a horse bit-less as I can with a Cathedral port Mylar. It is not the bit it is the rider and how well they use their hands. I ride/show with a Cathedral port or correction bit (I use different bits all the time) and the bit rarely touches my horses mouth.


Although I do agree with the fact that a rider can do damage with any kind of bridle (equal with any person, bit or no bit) I also agree with people saying that a rider riding bitless can be much gentler and most likely more gentle than somebody riding with a bit.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> I actually do know that every bit is different, but thanks for checking :lol: I am aware of tongue and palate pressure and I disagree with it.


Answer me this. Would you do EVERYTHING you are asked to do if there was no pressure to do it? There is always some type of pressure to do things. Like it or not. If you use a bit-less bridle you are still putting pressure on your horse. Just in a different place. You put a collar on your dog you are putting pressure on him same as a halter. Just different places.

I use less pressure with a bit then I would with a halter or bit-less bridle b/c the horse will respond faster to the bit. That is if you have good hands. All my horses all the horses at my trainers all the horses at every show I go to where started in a bit trained in a bit and still have bits and they are all very very light and work well. If there is even a scratch on those horses ANYWHERE the horse is DQed and you loose your entree fees. That can be a lot of money. I have seen more horses with sores on their face from halters/bosals/bit-less bridles then I do on mouths from bits.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> Although I do agree with the fact that a rider can do damage with any kind of bridle (equal with any person, bit or no bit) I also agree with people saying that a rider riding bitless can be much gentler and most likely more gentle than somebody riding with a bit.


Not if used properly. It takes less pressure to get a horse to respond to a bit then it does a bit-less bridle. I ride with a lot of slack in my reins. I can get my horse to bridle up with just moving my hand about an inch. You could not do this with a bit-less bridle b/c there is not the response with a Bit-less bridle like you get with a bit.

It is the same as the difference between a snaffle and a curb. I get a better, faster respond with less pressure with a curb bit then I would with a snaffle. However you need to start with a snaffle so the horse learns to respond to pressure.


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> Answer me this. Would you do EVERYTHING you are asked to do if there was no pressure to do it? There is always some type of pressure to do things. Like it or not. If you use a bit-less bridle you are still putting pressure on your horse. Just in a different place. You put a collar on your dog you are putting pressure on him same as a halter. Just different places.
> 
> I use less pressure with a bit then I would with a halter or bit-less bridle b/c the horse will respond faster to the bit. That is if you have good hands. All my horses all the horses at my trainers all the horses at every show I go to where started in a bit trained in a bit and still have bits and they are all very very light and work well. If there is even a scratch on those horses ANYWHERE the horse is DQed and you loose your entree fees. That can be a lot of money. I have seen more horses with sores on their face from halters/bosals/bit-less bridles then I do on mouths from bits.



What you are writing is almost my point. Why put something in a horses mouth, when you don't have to? Bitless bridles correctly fitted are JUST as useful as bits. I know what reining is, but I still think you can get the same result with a bitless bridle. Can you be 100% sure that the bit is not putting your horse in any discomfort? Bitless bridles put pressure OUTSIDE of the horse not inside a sensitive mouth. I disagree with people saying it is refining thats like saying its just touching some things up. Spurs are the same thing people say "refining", I disagree. Pressure points on the horses face can be taken advantage of to use extremely light pressure and get the same result, but knowing your horse isn't in discomfort. A person can take a wrong fitting bitless put it on and ride awfully and mark up the horses face (obviously), but if you had a big batch of apples and you were eating them and ONE of them was bad, could you trust that the rest are too? No and if you do that would be silly. Same with halters anybody can hurt any horse with any item of tack. Doesn't mean thats the wrong piece of tack just means its the wrong rider. Having said that I still disagree that a great rider can make a bit as comforting as a bitless bridle. I ride at a bitless barn and I have yet to see a horse that they cannot control being bitless.


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> Not if used properly. It takes less pressure to get a horse to respond to a bit then it does a bit-less bridle. I ride with a lot of slack in my reins. I can get my horse to bridle up with just moving my hand about an inch. You could not do this with a bit-less bridle b/c there is not the response with a Bit-less bridle like you get with a bit.
> 
> It is the same as the difference between a snaffle and a curb. I get a better, faster respond with less pressure with a curb bit then I would with a snaffle. However you need to start with a snaffle so the horse learns to respond to pressure.


Have you ever thought of WHY your horse responds faster with a bit? It is because pressure is being put on a more sensitive part of a horses mouth.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> What you are writing is almost my point. Why put something in a horses mouth, when you don't have to? Bitless bridles correctly fitted are JUST as useful as bits. I know what reining is, but I still think you can get the same result with a bitless bridle. Can you be 100% sure that the bit is not putting your horse in any discomfort? Bitless bridles put pressure OUTSIDE of the horse not inside a sensitive mouth. I disagree with people saying it is refining thats like saying its just touching some things up. Spurs are the same thing people say "refining", I disagree. Pressure points on the horses face can be taken advantage of to use extremely light pressure and get the same result, but knowing your horse isn't in discomfort. A person can take a wrong fitting bitless put it on and ride awfully and mark up the horses face (obviously), but if you had a big batch of apples and you were eating them and ONE of them was bad, could you trust that the rest are too? No and if you do that would be silly. Same with halters anybody can hurt any horse with any item of tack. Doesn't mean thats the wrong piece of tack just means its the wrong rider. Having said that I still disagree that a great rider can make a bit as comforting as a bitless bridle. I ride at a bitless barn and I have yet to see a horse that they cannot control being bitless.


So you think that just b/c the pressure is on the outside of the horse that it is some how less painful? I call B/S on that one.

Also have a lot of experience with different types of bits and even bit-less bridles and how they work. You WILL NOT get the same results with a bit-less bridle as you will get with a bit. It is all about refinement. Same with spurs. It is all about refinement of cues. Using LESS pressure not more. I can run my horse full out in a circle and move them over to hit a marker with less then an ounce of pressure from my leg with a spur on. If I take the spur off It would take a lot more pressure to get that job done.

Also yes a good rider with a well trained horse or even a green horse can and do make a horse more comfortable with a bit then a bit-less bridle b/c there is less pressure to get the response needed. 

All my horses eat their bits. I put the bit in front of them and they eat it up. If they associated that bit with pain they would not do that.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> Have you ever thought of WHY your horse responds faster with a bit? It is because pressure is being put on a more sensitive part of a horses mouth.


That is part of it but it is also b/c the horse can feel the smallest movement of my hand. Think about it this way. I ride with 9 foot reins. Typically they have at least a 1 foot droop to them from my hand to the bit. My horses respond to the movement of my hand with in the first inch of movement. You can not get that with a bit-less bridle or even a snaffle. You would have to take all the slack out of the rein and put pressure on the horses mouths of face to get that response. 

Once the horse under stands what the movement means from the reins/bit it takes no real pressure to get them to respond. The cue has been refined so much that it takes very little to nothing to get them to do what I want.


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## wild_spot

Thumpthump,

What would you suggest for horses that hate face pressure? 

I am not against any bit, bitless bridle or anything else that may be out there (Except for mule bits and those crazy twisted wire/gag/hack combos).

I will ride in what my horse is most comfortable in and performs best in. So far, for every horse but one, it has been a bit. The only one who went better in a hack was very badly trained and was still badly trained in the hack, just a bit quieter.

I spend a huge amount of time finding out which bit my horse is most comfortable carrying. I have a LOT of bits :]

No two horses are the same. By limiting yourself to bitless because you think it is better for the horse you are actually closing your mind to options that may suit some horses better!


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> So you think that just b/c the pressure is on the outside of the horse that it is some how less painful? I call B/S on that one.
> 
> Also have a lot of experience with different types of bits and even bit-less bridles and how they work. You WILL NOT get the same results with a bit-less bridle as you will get with a bit. It is all about refinement. Same with spurs. It is all about refinement of cues. Using LESS pressure not more. I can run my horse full out in a circle and move them over to hit a marker with less then an ounce of pressure from my leg with a spur on. If I take the spur off It would take a lot more pressure to get that job done.
> 
> Also yes a good rider with a well trained horse or even a green horse can and do make a horse more comfortable with a bit then a bit-less bridle b/c there is less pressure to get the response needed.
> 
> All my horses eat their bits. I put the bit in front of them and they eat it up. If they associated that bit with pain they would not do that.


Yeah I do think it is less painful and I don't care if you " call B/S on that one ". Bottom line is that bits are for riders NOT for horses. Your horses most likely "eat up their bits" because they don't know anything else! It is how they are raised! If they have been showed something else how much time did you give them to adjust? Bits are for riders not horses. Let me see how easy I can make this for me? Do you care about natural horsemanship at ALL?


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> That is part of it but it is also b/c the horse can feel the smallest movement of my hand. Think about it this way. I ride with 9 foot reins. Typically they have at least a 1 foot droop to them from my hand to the bit. My horses respond to the movement of my hand with in the first inch of movement. You can not get that with a bit-less bridle or even a snaffle. You would have to take all the slack out of the rein and put pressure on the horses mouths of face to get that response.
> 
> Once the horse under stands what the movement means from the reins/bit it takes no real pressure to get them to respond. The cue has been refined so much that it takes very little to nothing to get them to do what I want.


That is my point! Horses can feel the smallest movements because you have put a bit in most sensitive part of their mouth! OF COURSE they will respond faster, but forgive me for thinking the horse would be thought about in this equation. Refining is stupid to me bits, spurs, grass reins all these things are for people who can't control their horse so they add a new device. You can control your horse with a bitless comfortably so why add a bit? Refining?! Stupid that is for you not your horse. Horses were not meant to have bits or shoes.


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## thumpthump

wild_spot said:


> Thumpthump,
> 
> What would you suggest for horses that hate face pressure?
> 
> I am not against any bit, bitless bridle or anything else that may be out there (Except for mule bits and those crazy twisted wire/gag/hack combos).
> 
> I will ride in what my horse is most comfortable in and performs best in. So far, for every horse but one, it has been a bit. The only one who went better in a hack was very badly trained and was still badly trained in the hack, just a bit quieter.
> 
> I spend a huge amount of time finding out which bit my horse is most comfortable carrying. I have a LOT of bits :]
> 
> No two horses are the same. By limiting yourself to bitless because you think it is better for the horse you are actually closing your mind to options that may suit some horses better!


Have you ridden a horse that hates face pressure? 1. Any bridle puts pressure on the face. 2. How would you know? 3. How much time did you give the horse to adjust? and 4. Was the person riding correctly or was the horse confused? 

I disagree that there is a horse out there that can't be ridden bitless, but once again if the horse doesn't understand right away its forget about it he/she just doesn't like it! Its rider before horse,shows are the most important thing. This is why I stopped showing it becomes ALL about the rider what about connecting with your horse?!


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> Yeah I do think it is less painful and I don't care if you " call B/S on that one ". Bottom line is that bits are for riders NOT for horses.
> 
> *Not sure how you figure that one. A horse likes and prefer very straight forward and precise direction which they get from a bit. Bits when used properly convey a very very precise cue to the horse. In that there is no need to pull or keep asking. Again my horses respond to the movement of my hand with in the first inch. You will not get that bit-less. No matter how hard you try. You will have to take the slack out and make contact just like you do with a snaffle but more so. *
> 
> Your horses most likely "eat up their bits" because they don't know anything else! It is how they are raised! If they have been showed something else how much time did you give them to adjust? Bits are for riders not horses. Let me see how easy I can make this for me? Do you care about natural horsemanship at ALL?


They eat the bit up b/c they love what they do. They do not feel any discomfort from the bit. If they did they would not like the bit in their mouth and it would be hard to get them to take the bit.

There is nothing natural about what we do with horses. There is no real natural horsemanship. It is more marketing then anything. What I care about is that the horse responds to what I ask with the smallest amount of effort. 

I want you to try something. Go out to your horse put on your bit-less bridle and then take off your reins and re attach them with a piece of thread. Not string thread. See how much you can get your horse to do before it brakes. I can get my horse to run a full reining pattern with fast turns precise rollbacks and 35 foot sliding stops that way.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> Have you ridden a horse that hates face pressure? 1. Any bridle puts pressure on the face. 2. How would you know? 3. How much time did you give the horse to adjust? and 4. Was the person riding correctly or was the horse confused?
> 
> I disagree that there is a horse out there that can't be ridden bitless, but once again if the horse doesn't understand right away its forget about it he/she just doesn't like it! Its rider before horse,shows are the most important thing. This is why I stopped showing it becomes ALL about the rider what about connecting with your horse?!


You know what they say about people who assume. 

You seem to think b/c people use a bit they do not care about their horse. If they show that they can not connect with their horses. My horses LOVE to show. They eat it up. They get depressed if they can not show and go places. My horses know when it is time to show. You put your hat on and they put on their game face and go out and run for all they are worth and are ready to do it again.

It is not b/c they do not know anything else but b/c they love it. They would rather go show then go on a trail ride and yes I do trail ride my horses. They prefer to show. They are bred to rein and they love it.


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> They eat the bit up b/c they love what they do. They do not feel any discomfort from the bit. If they did they would not like the bit in their mouth and it would be hard to get them to take the bit.
> 
> There is nothing natural about what we do with horses. There is no real natural horsemanship. It is more marketing then anything. What I care about is that the horse responds to what I ask with the smallest amount of effort.
> 
> I want you to try something. Go out to your horse put on your bit-less bridle and then take off your reins and re attach them with a piece of thread. Not string thread. See how much you can get your horse to do before it brakes. I can get my horse to run a full reining pattern with fast turns precise rollbacks and 35 foot sliding stops that way.


1. I USED to ride with a bit until I realized the errors of my ways so I am never putting ANYTHING in my horses mouth again ever :evil:. 2. Natural horsemanship DOES exist. I can go out to my horse get her running around the round pen with nothing on her and get her to stop come in and follow me around the round pen, go when I go, stop when I stop, THAT is horsemanship. My trainer does AMAZING things without bits. So don't you dare try to tell me it hardly exists. 

3. Have you transformed your mouth into a horses mouth and worn a bit? No, so you also can't tell me that they aren't in any discomfort because you don't know. I disagree that they would just not take the bit if they didn't want it. What do you do when your horses won't take the bit? Make them take it? When you started them did they gulp it up right away? 

Horses are beings like us and the way I see it they ask things from us and we ask things from them. A horse needs a leader. Putting a bit in their mouth so they roll over and do whatever you want them to do isn't being a leader. Listening to your horse, recognizing the questions they ask THAT is the important thing and that is what it is supposed to be about.

"I want you to try something. Go out to your horse put on your bit-less bridle and then take off your reins and re attach them with a piece of thread. Not string thread. See how much you can get your horse to do before it brakes."

I have no idea what you are talking about that doesn't make any difference. Care to explain?


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> You know what they say about people who assume.
> 
> *You seem to think b/c people use a bit they do not care about their horse. If they show that they can not connect with their horses.*
> 
> _Don't accuse me of that or put words in my mouth. You are not in my head and cannot tell what I think. I am considering 4-H which is kind of showing, but I will do it with a bitless bridle and synthetic, treeless saddle.
> _
> 
> My horses LOVE to show. They eat it up. They get depressed if they can not show and go places. My horses know when it is time to show. You put your hat on and they put on their game face and go out and run for all they are worth and are ready to do it again.
> 
> It is not b/c they do not know anything else but b/c they love it. They would rather go show then go on a trail ride and yes I do trail ride my horses. They prefer to show. They are bred to rein and they love it.


This astounds me to no end, but I will attempt to respond. I just view things SO differently than you obviously. How do you know your horses love it? Honestly, how? They obviously don't know anything different. I very much doubt they would rather go showing than on a trail ride. How much time do you spend with each 90% showing and 10% trail rides? Not fair.


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## Sunny

Your ignorance amazes me.


Another fourteen year old girl who got her hands on a Parelli DVD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> Your ignorance amazes me.
> 
> 
> Another fourteen year old girl who got her hands on a Parelli DVD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



As you can imagine you amaze me. Hey, lets add another device to our horse because we can't get them to listen to us this should keep em calm for awhile. Forget actually caring for the horse and listening to him/her. FYI I don't own a Parelli DVD get your facts straight.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> 1. I USED to ride with a bit until I realized the errors of my ways so I am never putting ANYTHING in my horses mouth again ever :evil:. 2. Natural horsemanship DOES exist. I can go out to my horse get her running around the round pen with nothing on her and get her to stop come in and follow me around the round pen, go when I go, stop when I stop, THAT is horsemanship. My trainer does AMAZING things without bits. So don't you dare try to tell me it hardly exists.
> 
> *That is not natural horsemanship that is called training. I can do all that with all my horses including my stallions and I do not need a round pen to get it done. I can walk my stallion through a herd of mares like that. Not a bit deal.*
> 
> 3. Have you transformed your mouth into a horses mouth and worn a bit? No, so you also can't tell me that they aren't in any discomfort because you don't know. I disagree that they would just not take the bit if they didn't want it. What do you do when your horses won't take the bit? Make them take it? When you started them did they gulp it up right away?
> 
> Again you can not compare a human to a horse. They are not human they are horses. How do you know your horse is not in discomfort from your bit-less bridle? Put that on over your noise and see how well you like it. No different. I use a full fast mask in the winter and the part that goes over my noise bothers me. So I can just imagine that it would bother my horses nose and there is no way for them to hold it like they can a bit.
> 
> *As for my prospects. Have never had one that was hard to take a bit past the first time. Once they get the idea they love it. They love to work. It is bred into them. They are always ready to go.*
> 
> Horses are beings like us and the way I see it they ask things from us and we ask things from them. A horse needs a leader. Putting a bit in their mouth so they roll over and do whatever you want them to do isn't being a leader. Listening to your horse, recognizing the questions they ask THAT is the important thing and that is what it is supposed to be about.
> 
> *Leaders do not ask their subordinates what they think. They take all the knowledge they have gotten over the years and use it. The people animals follow b/c they recognize a leader when they see one. My mare who is the herd leader follows me everywhere. No questions asked. If you get challenged every time you tell someone to do something you are not a leader.*
> 
> "I want you to try something. Go out to your horse put on your bit-less bridle and then take off your reins and re attach them with a piece of thread. Not string thread. See how much you can get your horse to do before it brakes."
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about that doesn't make any difference. Care to explain?


Not sure what is so hard to get. Take and attach your reins to you bit-less bridle with a piece of thread. Not hard to get. Then see what you can get them to do with out braking the thread. 

It does make a difference. If you can not get your horse to respond to your bridle/cues with out braking the thread you are using too much pressure. IE: your hands are too heavy.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> This astounds me to no end, but I will attempt to respond. I just view things SO differently than you obviously. How do you know your horses love it? Honestly, how? They obviously don't know anything different. I very much doubt they would rather go showing than on a trail ride. How much time do you spend with each 90% showing and 10% trail rides? Not fair.


I know b/c at one of the places I show I also trail ride out of. where do you think the horses want to go when they get there? I can tell also by their attitude on the trail vs the show ring. Keep in mind these horses are bred to do what they do. They love it. You can tell by how excited they get when it is time to get into the trailer.

I do what I love to do and what my horses are bred to do. They love it b/c they are bred to do it. I show and prove my horses so I can improve the next generation.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> As you can imagine you amaze me. Hey, lets add another device to our horse because we can't get them to listen to us this should keep em calm for awhile. Forget actually caring for the horse and listening to him/her. FYI I don't own a Parelli DVD get your facts straight.


I bet you have to put more devices on your horse then do any of mine. I can get my horses to do every thing bridleless as I can with a bridle. Not hard. It is call a well trained horse. I do not own a hyper hard to control horse. Again called training. Even my stallions can and do go anyplace I wish to take them. They haul with mares they are in the same barn with mares. They are pastured next to mares with no problem. Again call a well trained animal.


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## Sunny

Love, get _your_ facts straight. I was considering bitless for my filly, but have decided against it for a number of reasons.
One being she has nasal problems. When pressure is put across her face she has trouble breathing and gapes her mouth. I can barely pull on her halter without her having trouble breathing. Want to put a bitless on her? Sure, if you want to kill her.


For you to say I don't care about my horse's comfort disgusts me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> Not sure what is so hard to get. Take and attach your reins to you bit-less bridle with a piece of thread. Not hard to get. Then see what you can get them to do with out braking the thread.
> 
> It does make a difference. If you can not get your horse to respond to your bridle/cues with out braking the thread you are using too much pressure. IE: your hands are too heavy.



Actually you have to be a horses leader for them to follow you because its means they want to be part of your herd. My horse is ridden bitless and loves it. When you say that they took the bit are you saying you brought it up to their mouth and they took it right away? Or did you have your finger in their mouth or were you rubbing it against there teeth? Any of these old tactics or did they horse open his mouth and try to eat up the bit? My hands aren't to heavy don't try to accuse me of that. Your exercise sounds silly to me, but you still may want to do it. Have you ever looked at your horse and realized how incredible they are? What type is your horse? Wind, Fire, ground? Do you have any idea what I am talking about? If you don't or if you do, but don't agree with it I feel sorry for you and your horse because you are missing out on something great. My dream ride is bitless and bareback which is what I do most of the time. I think you misunderstand the difference between training and horsemanship.


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> Love, get _your_ facts straight. I was considering bitless for my filly, but have decided against it for a number of reasons.
> One being she has nasal problems. When pressure is put across her face she has trouble breathing and gapes her mouth. I can barely pull on her halter without her having trouble breathing. Want to put a bitless on her? Sure, if you want to kill her.
> 
> 
> For you to say I don't care about my horse's comfort disgusts me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Are you seriously going to try and tell me that you have no other choice then to ride her in a bit? Thats garbage. I disagree with bits and you can say I disgust you it doesn't matter to me because when I go see my horse and she nickers at me and is excited to see me THAT is what I care about. Not your opinion not nrhareiner's opinion on me as a horsewomen either. This forum is OBVIOUSLY gated more toward the showing side which I don't agree with unless its bitless. I can also tell that this forum has mostly people that if you don't agree with their principles get sent into a fit. I haven't talked to everybody on the forum, but I know that you disgust me and you are extremely immature to post a rude comment. Why don't you go HELP somebody instead of try to get in a fight with me? That is obviously what you are trying to do here.


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> I bet you have to put more devices on your horse then do any of mine. I can get my horses to do every thing bridleless as I can with a bridle. Not hard. It is call a well trained horse. I do not own a hyper hard to control horse. Again called training. Even my stallions can and do go anyplace I wish to take them. They haul with mares they are in the same barn with mares. They are pastured next to mares with no problem. Again call a well trained animal.



Why wouldn't you be bitless then? Obviously you realize what it can do for you and your horse. We obviously have extremely different views on horses in general. I feel as though they are beings not to be objectified. I personally also think that you imagine half the things you are saying about your horses loving showing.


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## nrhareiner

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> Actually you have to be a horses leader for them to follow you because its means they want to be part of your herd.
> *
> Yes b/c you are the leader. They do not question you. They just follow you. If they question or test you then you are not a leader.*
> 
> My horse is ridden bitless and loves it.
> 
> *That is great and fine for you. My horses love their bits and work very well in them. Have a lot of earnings to prove it.*
> 
> When you say that they took the bit are you saying you brought it up to their mouth and they took it right away?
> 
> *Yep for the most part. Once they relized what it is they love it. They know that the bit means they go out to work and do what they love. They meet me at the gate or back of the barn and push each other to see who gets worked first. *
> 
> Or did you have your finger in their mouth or were you rubbing it against there teeth? Any of these old tactics or did they horse open his mouth and try to eat up the bit? My hands aren't to heavy don't try to accuse me of that. Your exercise sounds silly to me, but you still may want to do it. Have you ever looked at your horse and realized how incredible they are? What type is your horse? Wind, Fire, ground? Do you have any idea what I am talking about? If you don't or if you do, but don't agree with it I feel sorry for you and your horse because you are missing out on something great. My dream ride is bitless and bareback which is what I do most of the time. I think you misunderstand the difference between training and horsemanship.


My dream is to have a horse who is willingly guided. Which I have a whole barn full of those type of horses. 

Well off to game night and to play some MTG. Enjoy and I will post if needed latter.


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## Sunny

My horse nickers at me, too, hon. :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> My horse nickers at me, too, hon. :wink:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Okay?????? Good for you??? :wink:


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## Sunny

Surprising, right? Because my horse should hate me since I force her to carry a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

nrhareiner said:


> My dream is to have a horse who is willingly guided. Which I have a whole barn full of those type of horses.
> 
> Well off to game night and to play some MTG. Enjoy and I will post if needed latter.



Love how you skipped this part: " Or did you have your finger in their mouth or were you rubbing it against there teeth? Any of these old tactics or did they horse open his mouth and try to eat up the bit? "

I am the leader to my horse, but she is allowed to ask me if she should be scared of a tarp or a moving by car so I let her know. Those are the questions she asks not are you my leader.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...-respond-your-bit-62456/page30/#ixzz18n9BoMMw​


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> Surprising, right? Because my horse should hate me since I force her to carry a bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Possibly.


(Stupid question, Stupid answer....Get a life.


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## Sunny

Quite a bit of irony in that statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Thump, how would you determine your horse hated something? Ex. You put a bit in her mouth, how would she act differently that would prove to you that she hates the bit? 

I'm not attacking you, I'm geniunely curious. As I've posted time and time again I look at my horse's attitude. Does he try to get away from the bit/bitless bridle? Does he respond happily? Does he fight the pressure? Etc. 

Soda fought the bitless bridle I had on him. I tried it for about a week before giving it up. He went from listening, cheerful, happy to see me, happy to be bridled to bracing, ansy, not happy to see me, and definitely not happy to be bridled. He injured his stifle he was so busy fighting the bitless option he stumbled and took a really bad step. 

Please before you accuse me of being yet another show driven heavy handed rider who really doesn't give a rat hind end about her horses realize that I: 
A. Do not show. 
B. Go without more often than not to provide for my horses
C. Babied, pampered and loved my 30 yr old TWH mare for years when she was completely unrideable. I spent money I didn't have to make my girl comfy and I do the same with the two I have now. 
D. Both of my darlings are always happy to see me. They nicker, come up to me for pats, and attention. 

I bust my butt to take care of my horses. I live in MN and my horses live outside. I'm out there every single day at least twice a day taking care of them. In the winter this means trudging through thigh deep snow (in places) and freezing my *** off to make sure they're happy. Soda doesn't like to go out in the snow, so when it's stormy I go down 3-4 times a day with fresh warm water for him to drink. I LOVE my horses and would NEVER do anything to injure them. Yes I ride them both in bits and they do like it. 

Should I force Soda and Lily into a option that they do not appear to enjoy in the slightest? Or should I go along with what they appear to like?


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## thumpthump

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Thump, how would you determine your horse hated something? Ex. You put a bit in her mouth, how would she act differently that would prove to you that she hates the bit?
> 
> I'm not attacking you, I'm geniunely curious. As I've posted time and time again I look at my horse's attitude. Does he try to get away from the bit/bitless bridle? Does he respond happily? Does he fight the pressure? Etc.
> 
> Soda fought the bitless bridle I had on him. I tried it for about a week before giving it up. He went from listening, cheerful, happy to see me, happy to be bridled to bracing, ansy, not happy to see me, and definitely not happy to be bridled. He injured his stifle he was so busy fighting the bitless option he stumbled and took a really bad step.
> 
> Please before you accuse me of being yet another show driven heavy handed rider who really doesn't give a rat hind end about her horses realize that I:
> A. Do not show.
> B. Go without more often than not to provide for my horses
> C. Babied, pampered and loved my 30 yr old TWH mare for years when she was completely unrideable. I spent money I didn't have to make my girl comfy and I do the same with the two I have now.
> D. Both of my darlings are always happy to see me. They nicker, come up to me for pats, and attention.
> 
> I bust my butt to take care of my horses. I live in MN and my horses live outside. I'm out there every single day at least twice a day taking care of them. In the winter this means trudging through thigh deep snow (in places) and freezing my *** off to make sure they're happy. Soda doesn't like to go out in the snow, so when it's stormy I go down 3-4 times a day with fresh warm water for him to drink. I LOVE my horses and would NEVER do anything to injure them. Yes I ride them both in bits and they do like it.
> 
> Should I force Soda and Lily into a option that they do not appear to enjoy in the slightest? Or should I go along with what they appear to like?


Let me ask you this, You are asking me how I know that my horse doesn't like a bit..how do you know your horse does like bits? Its the same way. She doesn't like bits she throws her head and I also use common sense.. would I like a big hunk of metal in my mouth?


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## MN Tigerstripes

So what if your horse throws her head, braces, pins her ears, just acts ****ed off in general when you ride her bitless? Would you decide that she did not like the bitless? Or would you keep working in the bitless? 

My mouth isn't nearly as bit as my horse's nor is it shaped correctly, but when I was child my siblings and cousins would often put "bits" in our mouths and ride each other. It wasn't uncomfortable in the slightest, unless the "rider" was yanking on it.


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## thumpthump

MN Tigerstripes said:


> So what if your horse throws her head, braces, pins her ears, just acts ****ed off in general when you ride her bitless? Would you decide that she did not like the bitless? Or would you keep working in the bitless?
> 
> My mouth isn't nearly as bit as my horse's nor is it shaped correctly, but when I was child my siblings and cousins would often put "bits" in our mouths and ride each other. It wasn't uncomfortable in the slightest, unless the "rider" was yanking on it.



Obviously that doesn't work because it wasn't in a horse mouth. I believe bits are uncomfortable and don't agree with them. That won't change the mature thing is to agree to disagree.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Can you answer my first question please? I am genuinely curious as to what you would do if your horse showed the same discomfort signs being ridden bitless as you see when you ride her in a bit. 

I have yet to have this question answered by a person that is diehard bitless. I do have several friends that ride primarily bitless. When I asked them the same question they said "Well, I'd find the option that works for the horse whether bitless or a bit. They'll tell you when they're comfortable." 

I don't have a problem agreeing to disagree, but I do get tired of being told that I'm a terrible horse owner who doesn't understand or love her horses. Or that my horses must actually hate me because I put a bit in their mouth. I'm sure you can understand my frustration.

ETA - I said "bits" because we didn't use horse bits. They'd never fit :lol:. We generally used some sort of rope through our mouths or something of that nature.


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## Romantic Lyric

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> What type is your horse? Wind, Fire, ground? Do you have any idea what I am talking about? If you don't or if you do, but don't agree with it I feel sorry for you and your horse because you are missing out on something great..


What the...

No seriously, what is this?



thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> My dream ride is bitless and bareback which is what I do most of the time.


I think bareback is more uncomfortable for horses than saddles on their backs. People usually ride bareback for one of three reasons. A: Because they are too lazy to be bothered with tack, B: To improve their balance and overall riding skill, and C: To "free" their horse, which is just silly. Think about it. Your butt bones grinding into their back with every step rather than a soft fleece pad. Saddles also help distribute your weight properly. 



nrhareiner said:


> Even my stallions can and do go anyplace I wish to take them. They haul with mares they are in the same barn with mares. They are pastured next to mares with no problem. Again call a well trained animal.


I'm not sure if I would call that PURELY training. I'm sure your stallions are out-of-the-ordinary-sane at least partially because they aren't put on lockdown like a lot of stallions are, isolated and treated like they are sadistic rapists just waiting for the chance to have at it. They are allowed to interact with mares in a positive way, but on your terms. The best, most sane stallions I've seen are treated exactly like yours.


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## thumpthump

RomanticLyric said:


> What the...
> 
> No seriously, what is this?
> 
> 
> 
> I think bareback is more uncomfortable for horses than saddles on their backs. People usually ride bareback for one of three reasons. A: Because they are too lazy to be bothered with tack, B: To improve their balance and overall riding skill, and C: To "free" their horse, which is just silly. Think about it. Your butt bones grinding into their back with every step rather than a soft fleece pad. Saddles also help distribute your weight properly.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I would call that PURELY training. I'm sure your stallions are out-of-the-ordinary-sane at least partially because they aren't put on lockdown like a lot of stallions are, isolated and treated like they are sadistic rapists just waiting for the chance to have at it. They are allowed to interact with mares in a positive way, but on your terms. The best, most sane stallions I've seen are treated exactly like yours.


Google the fire wind ground and you'll get it it takes a long time to explain. I have had a horse chiropractor out to make sure my horses back is okay to be bareback and it is. If I am riding for more than two hours I use a saddle. Less than 2 bareback.


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## thumpthump

RomanticLyric said:


> What the...
> 
> No seriously, what is this?
> 
> 
> 
> I think bareback is more uncomfortable for horses than saddles on their backs. People usually ride bareback for one of three reasons. A: Because they are too lazy to be bothered with tack, B: To improve their balance and overall riding skill, and C: To "free" their horse, which is just silly. Think about it. Your butt bones grinding into their back with every step rather than a soft fleece pad. Saddles also help distribute your weight properly.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if I would call that PURELY training. I'm sure your stallions are out-of-the-ordinary-sane at least partially because they aren't put on lockdown like a lot of stallions are, isolated and treated like they are sadistic rapists just waiting for the chance to have at it. They are allowed to interact with mares in a positive way, but on your terms. The best, most sane stallions I've seen are treated exactly like yours.



The wind fire ground is taught at the barn I ride at.


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## Romantic Lyric

I'm sure it's "okay" to be ridden bareback, most horses' backs are. I wasn't arguing that it wasn't. I'm just pointing out that riding bareback is not what I would call an "ideal ride" for _the horse_, which seems to be what your number one concern is.



thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> The wind fire ground is taught at the barn I ride at.


I see. I googled it and couldn't find a thing. Maybe you could locate some literature on this for me?


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## thumpthump

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Can you answer my first question please? I am genuinely curious as to what you would do if your horse showed the same discomfort signs being ridden bitless as you see when you ride her in a bit.
> 
> I have yet to have this question answered by a person that is diehard bitless. I do have several friends that ride primarily bitless. When I asked them the same question they said "Well, I'd find the option that works for the horse whether bitless or a bit. They'll tell you when they're comfortable."
> 
> I don't have a problem agreeing to disagree, but I do get tired of being told that I'm a terrible horse owner who doesn't understand or love her horses. Or that my horses must actually hate me because I put a bit in their mouth. I'm sure you can understand my frustration.
> 
> ETA - I said "bits" because we didn't use horse bits. They'd never fit :lol:. We generally used some sort of rope through our mouths or something of that nature.


If my horse started showing signs of irritation with a bitless bridle I would get the vet or chiropractor out to make sure she is okay. I have ridden at 3 different barns though and have never heard of a horse that can't be ridden bitless. I have never once said that if somebody uses a bit they don't love or care for their horse. I never said that and I was very careful not too so if somebody thinks that they have put that thought in their own mind.


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## Ray MacDonald

Are we going thru this again?????????


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## thumpthump

RomanticLyric said:


> I'm sure it's "okay" to be ridden bareback, most horses' backs are. I wasn't arguing that it wasn't. I'm just pointing out that riding bareback is not what I would call an "ideal ride" for _the horse_, which seems to be what your number one concern is.
> 
> 
> 
> I see. I googled it and couldn't find a thing. Maybe you could locate some literature on this for me?



I understand what you mean about bareback, but to me for shorter rides I think that a horse would appreciate no tack rather than tack. When I go on long rides I use a barefoot treeless saddle. 

It is taught here a bit : Spare

You can read about it a bit


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## Sunny

And when the vet says the horse is okay, what do you do then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thumpthump

Sunny said:


> And when the vet says the horse is okay, what do you do then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is theoretical so its not my horse so considering these facts I would have to know the horse


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## MN Tigerstripes

So in your opinion there are no horses out there that are more comfortable with a bit. Even horses that dislike face pressure? 

I saw your point earlier about bridles putting pressure on their face and that isn't the same sort of pressure as a bitless bridle. Bridles generally have passive pressure on a horse's face (at least mine doesn't do anything other than keep the bit in place). A bitless bridle is active pressure and uses pressure points to "force" the horse listen. *Disclaimer - I don't think bitless is inherently cruel, anymore than most bits* Some horses have very sensitive faces and do not appreciate pressure being applied to the pressure points on their face. 

Now I *could* train my horse to accept the bitless bridle. I'm sure I could. But is it worth it? Not for me. I see no reason to harass my horse for a month or two in order to force him to accept something he has shown he doesn't like. As long as I can ride my horses happily (both of us) and safely (both of us) I could care less what I ride them in. If they want bitless, so be it. If they don't like bitless, so be it.

I'll probably try Lily in a bitless option at some point too just to see if she does like it, in the meantime she's happy and accepting of her loose ring snaffle. More than likely I'll throw a bosal (properly fitted) on Soda and see if he likes it. If he doesn't he'll go right back to his double jointed snaffle that he is completely happy in.

ETA - According to both of my vets there is no "physical" reason Soda shouldn't like a bitless bridle. Of course they didn't see any reason for him to hate the single jointed snaffle either and he disliked that too. I put the double jointed in and it was a night and day difference.


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## thumpthump

MN Tigerstripes said:


> So in your opinion there are no horses out there that are more comfortable with a bit. Even horses that dislike face pressure?
> 
> I saw your point earlier about bridles putting pressure on their face and that isn't the same sort of pressure as a bitless bridle. Bridles generally have passive pressure on a horse's face (at least mine doesn't do anything other than keep the bit in place). A bitless bridle is active pressure and uses pressure points to "force" the horse listen. *Disclaimer - I don't think bitless is inherently cruel, anymore than most bits* Some horses have very sensitive faces and do not appreciate pressure being applied to the pressure points on their face.
> 
> Now I *could* train my horse to accept the bitless bridle. I'm sure I could. But is it worth it? Not for me. I see no reason to harass my horse for a month or two in order to force him to accept something he has shown he doesn't like. As long as I can ride my horses happily (both of us) and safely (both of us) I could care less what I ride them in. If they want bitless, so be it. If they don't like bitless, so be it.
> 
> I'll probably try Lily in a bitless option at some point too just to see if she does like it, in the meantime she's happy and accepting of her loose ring snaffle. More than likely I'll throw a bosal (properly fitted) on Soda and see if he likes it. If he doesn't he'll go right back to his double jointed snaffle that he is completely happy in.
> 
> ETA - According to both of my vets there is no "physical" reason Soda shouldn't like a bitless bridle. Of course they didn't see any reason for him to hate the single jointed snaffle either and he disliked that too. I put the double jointed in and it was a night and day difference.


Honestly, I have nothing else to say about this. I have said all I have to say. I will agree to disagree.


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## Ray MacDonald

But you just can't admit that some horses don't like bitless pressure just as some horses don't like bit pressure.


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## thumpthump

Ray MacDonald said:


> But you just can't admit that some horses don't like bitless pressure just as some horses don't like bit pressure.



Have I said that throughout any of my posts? I'm not saying there is never a place for bits I am saying I disagree with them.


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## Ray MacDonald

No I didn't see it.. I think you are very close minded and I think bareback hurts the horse. Your butt is grinding right against their spine how would that not hurt???


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## thumpthump

thumpthumpmyhorseshooves said:


> I understand what you mean about bareback, but to me for shorter rides I think that a horse would appreciate no tack rather than tack. When I go on long rides I use a barefoot treeless saddle.
> 
> It is taught here a bit : Spare
> 
> You can read about it a bit



BTW I didn't write this and this is a public link.


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## thumpthump

Ray MacDonald said:


> No I didn't see it.. I think you are very close minded and I think bareback hurts the horse. Your butt is grinding right against their spine how would that not hurt???



As I said before (and this won't change) I think the horse prefers bareback instead of tack on a short ride which is what I do, but if the ride is over 2 hours I ride with tack. My horse loves bareback. I try to put a saddle on she hates it but she moves so that I can get on her bareback.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Ok, Thump, I'll agree to disagree with you about all horses being ok in a bitless bridle. You do have some good points, I just don't like that particular "hard" point in your mind. 

I enjoy riding bareback also, though I don't do it all the time. When I'm not bareback I have a Bob Marshall Barrel saddle. I'd like to get an AP english saddle at some point and maybe a dressage. Darn horses eat to much though. :lol:


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## thumpthump

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Ok, Thump, I'll agree to disagree with you about all horses being ok in a bitless bridle. You do have some good points, I just don't like that particular "hard" point in your mind.
> 
> I enjoy riding bareback also, though I don't do it all the time. When I'm not bareback I have a Bob Marshall Barrel saddle. I'd like to get an AP english saddle at some point and maybe a dressage. Darn horses eat to much though. :lol:



I'm so so so sorry. I just saw your status. That is so harsh. I am so so sorry.


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## mom2pride

thumpthump said:


> Although I do agree with the fact that a rider can do damage with any kind of bridle (equal with any person, bit or no bit) I also agree with people saying that a rider riding bitless can be much gentler and most likely more gentle than somebody riding with a bit.


Definitely not true on the 'quicker response' bitless, or most gentle riding gear for head being bitless, part of this statement. My mare is trained with rope halter (bitless), in an english hackemore, snaffle, and she's done a bit with a mild curb (we're not quite "there" yet relaxation wise, for the curb all the time). Out of the first three, the one that I get the "instant" response from as soon as I shift the rein, is the snaffle. Simple reason being the mechanics...the snaffle is in the mouth, and the mouth a bit quicker response triggered by slight shifts in the reins. All I have to do is close my fingers around the rein, and she is responding. With the halter, while she responds quickly, the response is definitely not "that" quick...I have to lift a bit before she feels the movement, and responds. Again, another mechanics thing...the bridge of the nose isn't nearly as sensitive to the pressure as the mouth is, so the response time is diminished, no matter how well trained the horse is. 

True, bitless (depending on the TYPE; are you talking the rope halter, indian hackemore, dr. cooks?) could be gentler in the sense that you aren't going to damage the horse's mouth at all, BUT you will still be putting poll pressure, face pressure, chin pressure etc (again, depending on style bitless), and you can easily deaden those areas, just as easily as if the horse were being ridden with a bit, and having his mouth deadened to pressure. I don't care what style bit, bitless, or halter a rider uses, personally, as long as they are used properly, that is what counts, and I really don't feel that one is SO much better than the other. If any horse had his choice, he wouldn't be ridden period, so none of this is 'natural' anyway!


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## WalkerLady

mom2pride said:


> If any horse had his choice, he wouldn't be ridden period, so none of this is 'natural' anyway!


So true, and what I've been thinking as I read these posts. If bits are unnatural, then so is a bitless bridle. If shoes are unnatural, then so is a saddle. And horses were meant to be led and guided by other horses (stallions and lead mares), not by people. So, no, it's all unnatural, but we all do it anyway. What's wonderful is that most horses don't mind and are happy to "go along for the ride".


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## Ray MacDonald

Two perfect posts!


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## thumpthump

This amazes me. Truly wow. How does your mind work? Seriously. This forum IS NOT for me.


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## Sunny

Then why are you still here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

thumpthump said:


> This amazes me. Truly wow. How does your mind work? Seriously. This forum IS NOT for me.


Sorry you feel that way. However this is a place where things are discussed and no one will give rainbows and butterflies. There are a lot of people here who have extensive experience with horses horse training breeding and showing. They know the ins and outs. They know how things really work. If you want a lot of different info then this is the place. You can take it or leave it.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Maybe you can go join a PETA forum 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

WalkerLady great point!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Maybe you can go join a PETA forum
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People eating tasty animals??


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## smrobs

Mmmmm, steak *drool*.


giggle


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

yum yum!!! lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## no stopin duke

*Our Theory*

Well i have found out that my horse is much more aggressive with a bit..he responds much better without a bit. It seems to be as he is very sensitive to his teeth and doesn't like the bit in his mouth at all. 

For the past few days we have been training him to run and ride without a bit and it seems to be working just fine with no problems. We have seemed to run into a stipulation to where he doesn't want to stop sometimes, but he is getting a lot better with the pressure sensitivity and is stopping pretty easy now..

He is a 7-8 year old guild and he was broke at a point (we think) but a few years of (not riding supposedly) we had to re-break him in our round pin. So about after 3 weeks we have him riding fine without a bit and just perfect really. The first day we got him in November just before Thanksgiving he wouldn't even let us put a saddle on him..then we built a round pin and worked him in December until now for about 3 weeks and he is just fine.

We believe that bits are in human and are a way to make your horse more aggressive and not wanting to respond or trust a trainer more..our horse,Duke,is very trust worthy with us and we trust him to.:wink:
We had the bit in his mouth the times that we have tried to get on him.
It took hours of running him until he would safely let somebody on him. He continuously bucked people off and tried to rear up. But ever since we have had him without a bit, we haven't had to warm him up or take him into he round pin. I was able to get up on him for the past few days just by getting on him with the saddle and the other things on..


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## CelticAngel

Hmmmmmm....that thread took awhile to read. =-)

Wellllll....I'm a rank beginner in the horse world but I can relay an experience that solidified my belief that -all- equipment used in horse riding/training can be used for good or ill, depending on the person using it.

I've been training for several months on a very well trained paint mare. I train both with bits and hackamores and am blessed with naturally quite hands. In fact, it frustrates me to no end when I have to move my hands more then a few inches to convey my intentions to the horse because that means that I did something wrong. Of course, this is coupled with the fact that I -just- switched from two handed grip to one handed grip and am still struggling with figuring out how to adjust the reins for different cues.

Anyways...about a month ago, I noticed that the mare was getting tougher and tougher to bridle, tossing her head up...being a pain in general. As well, she was spooking more then normal in the arena and fighting me much more then she had previous to that.

A few Saturdays ago, my trainer asked me if I wanted to participate in drill team as one person was absent. I agreed and tacked up the mare. Within five minutes in the area, she spooked hard enough to rear up...and eventually her and I both went over onto the ground. Now, just to be completely honest, I do accept that I did something wrong in reaction to her antics that didn't help the situation. When she reared and was coming back down, I gently pulled back on the reins (she was in a good bitless bridle) and said "whoa"...hoping to calm her down. Instead, she freaked out and I went flying. Ended up with a concussion and sprained forefoot. (Thank god I was wearing a helmet!)

After the accident, the trainer found out that one of the people that 'horse shares' that mare had been using spurs and a very bad mechanical hackamore on her...and that she had been doing it for about a month.

Coincidence? I think not....

That mare, who was an outstanding training horse, now has to learn to trust humans again because a human hurt her. Tools and equipment in the right hands can work wonders. But they can also equal disaster in the wrong hands. I blame myself and the woman for the accident...but I don't blame the horse because in the same situation, I can completely understand the course of events that led to the incident and would have done the same thing she did. 

There is a place for bits and bitless...and each person has to choose what works best for them and what they use their horse for.

As for being a leader, everyone is going to have a different opinion. I feel that being a leader is protecting and guiding the horses I work with. However, I do spend a lot of time with them out of training as well. Whether that is in their stalls or in the indoor/outdoor arena...or in the field. I make sure that when I go to see them, it's not -always- to train. They are always happy to see me and nicker profusely

Parts of this thread get into the age old debate about letting animals be animals vs humanizing them. As I do with many things, I research and get a lot of different opinions on a subject and then I create my own ideas. It's just like learning how to braid a tail up for the show horses. I was shown how four people did it before I took the best ideas out of those and created my own way. Do I believe horses need to be animals? Yes. Do I believe in humanizing them? I do a little bit. Do I believe in putting sweaters on them and treating them like pets? Nope. Don't get me wrong. I love each and every horse that I work with...and anyone that knows anything about horses can tell when a horse truly likes and accepts their company. None of my horses do anything out of fear...because I don't work like that. They do it because they love it...and it shows. Horses by nature are spooky creatures (flight response) and do you really think that they would just put up with something because they were afraid? Hell no....they would run like hell.

I generally agree with nhra reiner & company on the use of equipment. It's all about the person using the equipment...but to each his own. To be very blunt about it, we have no idea what is going through a horse's head so we have to do the very best we can to figure out what the horse is trying to tell us. =-)

Everyone has their own definition of horsemanship. Mine is pretty simple. A good horseman knows when to listen to their horse, can effectively communicate their intentions and earns respect from a horse...without using fear as a tool. Anger has no place in the saddle and any good rider I know dismounts their horse if that emotion creep into their being.

Sorry...long rambled post over. =-) There were a lot of points I wanted to hit and I'm sure I missed some.

-CA


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

CelticAngel said:


> Hmmmmmm....that thread took awhile to read. =-)
> 
> Wellllll....I'm a rank beginner in the horse world but I can relay an experience that solidified my belief that -all- equipment used in horse riding/training can be used for good or ill, depending on the person using it.
> 
> I've been training for several months on a very well trained paint mare. I train both with bits and hackamores and am blessed with naturally quite hands. In fact, it frustrates me to no end when I have to move my hands more then a few inches to convey my intentions to the horse because that means that I did something wrong. Of course, this is coupled with the fact that I -just- switched from two handed grip to one handed grip and am still struggling with figuring out how to adjust the reins for different cues.
> 
> Anyways...about a month ago, I noticed that the mare was getting tougher and tougher to bridle, tossing her head up...being a pain in general. As well, she was spooking more then normal in the arena and fighting me much more then she had previous to that.
> 
> A few Saturdays ago, my trainer asked me if I wanted to participate in drill team as one person was absent. I agreed and tacked up the mare. Within five minutes in the area, she spooked hard enough to rear up...and eventually her and I both went over onto the ground. Now, just to be completely honest, I do accept that I did something wrong in reaction to her antics that didn't help the situation. When she reared and was coming back down, I gently pulled back on the reins (she was in a good bitless bridle) and said "whoa"...hoping to calm her down. Instead, she freaked out and I went flying. Ended up with a concussion and sprained forefoot. (Thank god I was wearing a helmet!)
> 
> After the accident, the trainer found out that one of the people that 'horse shares' that mare had been using spurs and a very bad mechanical hackamore on her...and that she had been doing it for about a month.
> 
> Coincidence? I think not....
> 
> That mare, who was an outstanding training horse, now has to learn to trust humans again because a human hurt her. Tools and equipment in the right hands can work wonders. But they can also equal disaster in the wrong hands. I blame myself and the woman for the accident...but I don't blame the horse because in the same situation, I can completely understand the course of events that led to the incident and would have done the same thing she did.
> 
> There is a place for bits and bitless...and each person has to choose what works best for them and what they use their horse for.
> 
> As for being a leader, everyone is going to have a different opinion. I feel that being a leader is protecting and guiding the horses I work with. However, I do spend a lot of time with them out of training as well. Whether that is in their stalls or in the indoor/outdoor arena...or in the field. I make sure that when I go to see them, it's not -always- to train. They are always happy to see me and nicker profusely
> 
> Parts of this thread get into the age old debate about letting animals be animals vs humanizing them. As I do with many things, I research and get a lot of different opinions on a subject and then I create my own ideas. It's just like learning how to braid a tail up for the show horses. I was shown how four people did it before I took the best ideas out of those and created my own way. Do I believe horses need to be animals? Yes. Do I believe in humanizing them? I do a little bit. Do I believe in putting sweaters on them and treating them like pets? Nope. Don't get me wrong. I love each and every horse that I work with...and anyone that knows anything about horses can tell when a horse truly likes and accepts their company. None of my horses do anything out of fear...because I don't work like that. They do it because they love it...and it shows. Horses by nature are spooky creatures (flight response) and do you really think that they would just put up with something because they were afraid? Hell no....they would run like hell.
> 
> I generally agree with nhra reiner & company on the use of equipment. It's all about the person using the equipment...but to each his own. To be very blunt about it, we have no idea what is going through a horse's head so we have to do the very best we can to figure out what the horse is trying to tell us. =-)
> 
> Everyone has their own definition of horsemanship. Mine is pretty simple. A good horseman knows when to listen to their horse, can effectively communicate their intentions and earns respect from a horse...without using fear as a tool. Anger has no place in the saddle and any good rider I know dismounts their horse if that emotion creep into their being.
> 
> Sorry...long rambled post over. =-) There were a lot of points I wanted to hit and I'm sure I missed some.
> 
> -CA


VERY good post


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## gottatrot

A simple nylon halter is what broke the nose bone on my mare. Her owner snubbed her up tight and left her tied and when something scared her she broke her way out of the halter. So while I ride my other mare bitless a lot of times, it would be cruel to ride my horse with the dented face in a bitless bridle. It would cause her pain to have pressure on her nose, but she gladly opens her mouth for a snaffle. I've known some of the "natural" people to ride in a bitless bridle but ignore the pain their horses have in their mouths every day because they don't float their horses teeth regularly. 
I wish we lived in an ideal world where every horse was "natural," and could use all the gentlest tack and have our horses barefoot. I went through a phase where my idealistic mind wanted that for my horses and for everyone. But I kept finding exceptions where other things needed to be done. And as long as they are done with a caring attitude and with the intention that the horse would never be harmed, those things are good too. My friend's TB was poorly bred for racing with pancake feet and thin soles that rest on the ground. No barefoot technique will make her pasture sound, but if she wears shoes she can run and be happy. There are also horses who will get rain rot on their ears if they are not stalled every night and horses who would starve to death if they didn't eat loads of concentrate every day. 
So I've had to open my mind and accept that many different things can be best for different horses.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

gottatrot said:


> A simple nylon halter is what broke the nose bone on my mare. Her owner snubbed her up tight and left her tied and when something scared her she broke her way out of the halter. So while I ride my other mare bitless a lot of times, it would be cruel to ride my horse with the dented face in a bitless bridle. It would cause her pain to have pressure on her nose, but she gladly opens her mouth for a snaffle. I've known some of the "natural" people to ride in a bitless bridle but ignore the pain their horses have in their mouths every day because they don't float their horses teeth regularly.
> I wish we lived in an ideal world where every horse was "natural," and could use all the gentlest tack and have our horses barefoot. I went through a phase where my idealistic mind wanted that for my horses and for everyone. But I kept finding exceptions where other things needed to be done. And as long as they are done with a caring attitude and with the intention that the horse would never be harmed, those things are good too. My friend's TB was poorly bred for racing with pancake feet and thin soles that rest on the ground. No barefoot technique will make her pasture sound, but if she wears shoes she can run and be happy. There are also horses who will get rain rot on their ears if they are not stalled every night and horses who would starve to death if they didn't eat loads of concentrate every day.
> So I've had to open my mind and accept that many different things can be best for different horses.


Another extremely good point...what works for 1 horse may not work for another  I think if more people understood that and accepted it and weren't so absolute in their thinking, the world would certainly be a better place! :lol:


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## Sunny

Gottatrot, my horse also has issues with her nasal bone. I believe hers, too, may be fractured in some way. Too much pressure on the halter and she gapes her mouth, etc.
I wanted to train her bitless, but that isn't an option anymore.

I had a bitless preacher tell me that I should _still_ ride my horse in a bitless. :roll:

It just goes to show that the most "cruelty-free" methods aren't always cruelty-free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## candandy49

Very good and indepth post by you, smrobs. So many folks get a true snaffle confused with any broken mouthed bit including one with shanks. Several years ago I worked at a Western Tack and Clothing store. I had several customers come in asking for a more severe bit for their horse because of various reasons, but mostly for the lack of being to stop the horse. I always told the customer that putting a more severe bit in the mouth may not be necessary. I showed them a full Western bridle that had a flat leather curb strap, then asked if that's what their bridle had or a chain curb strap. Most generally their bridle had a flat leather strap. I suggested and showed them a chain curb strap and that's what they walked out of the store with. After I told them how to adjust it to the horse's chin groove. Some of those folks were return customers and I'd ask how well the curb chain was working for them. Again more often than not their respond was very favorable and thanked me for helping keep from buying a more severe bit.


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## chvyluvgrl

I get so annoyed when people say they need a different bit. I sold a horse for a friend and the horse wasn't so responsive to the bit it was a shire cross. The lady hopped on the horse and was on her for about ten minutes. She was a poor rider and poor handler and she said "this horse needs a twisted wire snaffle". The lady offered me more money and I told her no because I couldn't sell the horse to someone that was just going to get a "bigger" bit.


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## Ray MacDonald

People like those make me shudder...


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## bsms

Just an FYI: I have two horses. One hates bits. A previous owner tried to gain control by using harsher bits, and only got fear and rebellion. The bitless bridle I put on her is basically a rope halter with a couple of rings added, and she USUALLY listens very well to it. Earlier today, I tried seeing how little pressure she would respond to by letting the reins hang slack, and signaling her by reducing the slack in one side. About 75% of the time, reducing the slack from 3" to 1" got a turn. The other 25% required moving one finger back one finger widths distance with most of the slack gone. That is pretty responsive for a rope halter.

The other horse is happier with a bit. He's used to them, but he was also badly spurred on a ranch in Colorado. He worries about doing something wrong that will get him in trouble, and a bit clarifies in his mind what we want him to do. So he is calmer and happier in a bit. 

The mare's trust is high enough now that I CAN put a bit in her mouth. Once in a while, for a specific training purpose, I do so. Normally, I see no value in it - for her. But if the gelding is happier when there is a bit in his mouth, who am I to argue?

Bits are not cruel, and neither are spurs - people are. Or are not. It is the person who makes the difference, not the tool.


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## Elana

This is a very interesting thread.. and what is interesting to me is that not much has changed in the 50 years I have been aroundhorses! 

There are still those that think the bit trains the horse.. and those who think the trainer trains the horse. There are always those who believe that more harsh is how you control a horse.. and that all things bitless are always kinder.

I started all my horses in a rawhide core bosal. Eventually I put a loose ring, iron snaffle (broken, not mullen) in the horse's mouth and continued with the Bosal. The horse was learning how to carry weight, how to respond to cues, how to balance.. how to stretch the topline and shift their weight to the rear.. on the bosal and all they did was carry the snaffle. 

At some point I would start to Gorund drive in the snaffle and then eventually eliminate the bosal and go with the snaffle. I walked MILES behind the horse doing ground driving as this experience gave a lot of training beyond just responding to the bit. 

Some horses stayed in that snaffle bit and we did what we needed. Other horses I would graduate to a low port curb.. actually.. the bit I had (and still have) has a rounded moth so the bit fit over the horse's tongue. The shanks on this bit are quite long and the curb chain has a lot of adujustment. It is an easy bit for a horse to carry.... comfortable.

Because the horse responded lightly to the Bosal and then the snaffle.. the step to the curb was really not a difficult one... and the lightest touch got the response (but the horse was physically capable and mentally capable of that response by this time). 

Some horses went on to full bridles (dressage) but that took time.. and some went into a standard shank Pelham. 

Over the years I ended up with only four bits and the bosal. If the horse was not responsive it was not the bit.. it was the training. Most horses moved on to new owners in a loose ring snaffle. 

It is not the bit that makes the horse.. it is the training and the hands on the reins attached to the bit... 

In all my years I never had a horse that I could not train with this method (even spoiled horses). Usually any horse I had the refused to work in a bit did so because they had another issue (being asked to do more than they were physically able to was very common). 

Of course, this is all ancient history and things have changed.


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## Ayia

I ride English and Western. I do Jumping, Barrel Racing, and Reining. I avoid harsh gag bits, twists etc. I prefer snafflesD rings, O Rings, and simple snaffle short shanks. They are wonderful bits, but they arent for every horse and rider. I love these bits, I like things that are light feel and touch due to the fact I want my horses to listening to my cues and not something in there mouth thats forcing them too. But like I said this is all just my opinion


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## Ray MacDonald

A snaffle can have short shanks?


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## smrobs

No, not by definition. Anything with shanks would be considered a curb and one with a "snaffle" mouth would be called a 'broken mouth curb'.


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## Ray MacDonald

Oh okay! I'm learnin'! Love your lil saying! We don't want anymore coldness or snow! We have plenty


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## Loveeemyhorseee

Very interesting and hot topic. I agree with BitlessForHappiness and EmilyRosie. I ride bitless and at a bitless barn. I have read on this thread so many times: "Its about refining a cue" .... You can get a well trained horse to respond to a cue in a bitless just as well as you can with a bit. So why would you use a bit? For everybody saying what about a horse that doesn't like pressure on the face? Well a bridle with a bit puts pressure on the face too just more of the pressure is on the mouth. 

Lets say it this way... would you rather have a bit in your mouth pulling back on you or would you rather have a well put together bitless bridle hitting the correct pressure points on the face...hmm. 

If my horse is having on off day I get off because everybody and every horse has off days. Now if this happens 3 days in a row I will stay on and work with her. 

Also, there is absolutely no such thing as a bad horse. Humans have weird minds to me. Horses are innocent creatures and they are not wired wrong they do not have bad thoughts they do not think "I am going to kick my owner" I am not saying they have days when they misbehave, but I am saying there isn't a lost cause horse. 

Horses are usually provoked when they do something "bad" or "wrong" as some people say. My horse started walking and fidgeting when I went to get on her..so instead of getting mad at her and telling her she was wrong I called out the Chiropractor and she had pulled a muscle in her back.


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## smrobs

It never ceases to amaze me how many people can miss the entire point of this thread.

It is NOT a debate between bits and bitless!! I couldn't possibly care less what you choose to ride your horse in.

This thread is about educating people on what they are doing with their _hands_ and making sure the horse has the proper training to respond to ANY pressure, whether it is from a halter or a spade bit.

I don't understand why there is such a double standard here. Most of us that use bits are accepting of people who choose to ride bitless and don't think any less of them for it. However, some bitless "fanatics" automatically jump right to 'OMG, if you use a bit you are being mean to your horse'. Just give it a rest already, it's not about the tack you use, it's how you use it.

And as I said in the OP:

Results come from what you put_ in_ their head, not what you put _on_ it.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

smrobs said:


> It never ceases to amaze me how many people can miss the entire point of this thread.
> 
> It is NOT a debate between bits and bitless!! I couldn't possibly care less what you choose to ride your horse in.
> 
> This thread is about educating people on what they are doing with their _hands_ and making sure the horse has the proper training to respond to ANY pressure, whether it is from a halter or a spade bit.
> 
> *My point is why would you use a bit if you don't have to?*
> 
> I don't understand why there is such a double standard here. Most of us that use bits are accepting of people who choose to ride bitless and don't think any less of them for it. However, some bitless "fanatics" automatically jump right to 'OMG, if you use a bit you are being mean to your horse'. Just give it a rest already, it's not about the tack you use, it's how you use it.
> 
> *Most of us would be important in this statement. You are clearly stating in this point that you disagree with me, yet you are also saying that you are not telling people what you ride in or trying to change their views.*
> 
> And as I said in the OP:
> 
> Results come from what you put_ in_ their head, not what you put _on_ it.


I majorly disagree with "Results come from what you put_ in_ their head, not what you put _on_ it." that.


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## Sunny

Why ride bitless if you can correctly ride with a bit?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

^^ exactly...goes the same way. My horse goes well in a bit...but put her in a bitless or anything else that specifically applies pressure to her face and you get one very unhappy horse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

Same as HPITS. I ride in a headstall that doesn't have a noseband, tell me how much pressure that's applying to my horse's face? It's not even in the same area as the pressure a bitless bridle puts on a horse's face.

Seriously you disagree with the statement "it's what you put *in* their head not *on* it"? I don't see how you can and call yourself any sort of horseperson. Unless you think she's talking about bits (in head) and bitless (on head)?


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## nrhareiner

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> I majorly disagree with "Results come from what you put_ in_ their head, not what you put _on_ it." that.


Then this speaks to your level of under standing about horse training and how horses work. If it was not what you put *in* their head but *on *their head then you could get a horse to do anything the very first time you got on them.


Take a look at some of the best trained horses in the world. Take a look what they are ridden in. A BIT. They where trained in a bit even the horses that Stacy Westfall shows in Freestyle reining bitless are trained in a bit.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

Sunny said:


> Why ride bitless if you can correctly ride with a bit?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Can you tell me for sure that bits do not cause any pain or discomfort at all? No. Okay so why wouldn't you be safe and go with bitless?


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## Ray MacDonald

How do you know bitless doesn't cause pain and discomfort?


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## Sunny

A properly fitted bit should not cause pain or discomfort.

Just so you know, my horse had a fractured nasal bone and _can't_ be ridden bitless. I was considering starting her bitless until I discovered that it would cause her extreme pain. :wink:

ETA: Can you tell me for sure that bitless doesn't cause pain and discomfort? Because it surely can. I've seen it. Just as I've seen horses with wrecked mouths, I've seen horses with wrecked faces.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Same as HPITS. I ride in a headstall that doesn't have a noseband, tell me how much pressure that's applying to my horse's face? It's not even in the same area as the pressure a bitless bridle puts on a horse's face.
> 
> *Look up the pressure points on a horse's face.*
> 
> Seriously you disagree with the statement "it's what you put *in* their head not *on* it"? I don't see how you can and call yourself any sort of horseperson. Unless you think she's talking about bits (in head) and bitless (on head)?



How can you honestly say this? Pressure points on a horses face are natural and normal. Using what a horse is naturally giving you to ask them for things is what is supposed to happen. I believe a great deal matters what you put in their head, but also on it. How can you say that a bit is the better choice? Bits are so far from natural. I will get hammered for this, but I disagree with spurs and "grass" reins too. If you can find out why your horses head is flying up then you don't need grass reins. Its all about the horse and figuring out why you are getting the results you are getting. Horses ask from us: Food, shelter, water well basically just care. We ask from them to ride them. Riding isn't natural, but because of the human/horse relationship we are ABLE to ride them.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

Ray MacDonald said:


> How do you know bitless doesn't cause pain and discomfort?



1. Bridles with bits hit most of the same points there is just less pressure because of the bit. and 2. Hmm would you rather have a bit or no bit? If you were a horse? Try tugging on your mouth and tell me which you would choose.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

nrhareiner said:


> Then this speaks to your level of under standing about horse training and how horses work. If it was not what you put *in* their head but *on *their head then you could get a horse to do anything the very first time you got on them.
> 
> 
> Take a look at some of the best trained horses in the world. Take a look what they are ridden in. A BIT. They where trained in a bit even the horses that Stacy Westfall shows in Freestyle reining bitless are trained in a bit.


First off please do not take me to a lower standard and basically say I'm not horse smart because I have not demeaned anybody. I do not agree with that statement because it matters GREATLY what you put in their head, but also on their head. If you put something that causes pain on them you can get them to do WHATEVER you want like you said, but that isn't real horsemanship. Lets say you can get your horse to turn on a penny with a bit. Okay...but the horse isn't doing that out of respect for you or because you asked him too..he is doing it because thats what the tugging and pulling says. It doesn't mean he likes it.


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## nrhareiner

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> 1. Bridles with bits hit most of the same points there is just less pressure because of the bit. and 2. Hmm would you rather have a bit or no bit? If you were a horse? Try tugging on your mouth and tell me which you would choose.


Well lest see. A bit when properly used takes about 1 inch of movement from your hand to cue a horse. Less then a 1/2 once of pressure. 

A bit-less bride takes a lot more movement of your hand and a lot more pressure.

I have said this before yet the people who ride bit less seem not to want to give it a try.

Go and put on your bit less bride. Then attach your reins to that bit less bridle with a single piece of thread. You know the type that you use to put buttons on your coat. Then take your horse out and run him full out and ask for a stop. See if you can get that horse to stop before our brake the thread. If that is too much to ask see if you can get them to turn or do anything with out braking the piece of thread.

I know I can do this with my horses and a bit.


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## nrhareiner

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> First off please do not take me to a lower standard and basically say I'm not horse smart because I have not demeaned anybody. I do not agree with that statement because it matters GREATLY what you put in their head, but also on their head. If you put something that causes pain on them you can get them to do WHATEVER you want like you said, but that isn't real horsemanship. Lets say you can get your horse to turn on a penny with a bit. Okay...but the horse isn't doing that out of respect for you or because you asked him too..he is doing it because thats what the tugging and pulling says. It doesn't mean he likes it.


If you are tugging and pulling on the bit to get a horse to turn then you have not put what is needed *in* their head. Does not matter what you put *on* it. If it is not in there you will not get the desired response.

Bits properly used do not cause pain. Does not matter what is on my horses head I can cause them pain even with a bit less bridle.

If a horse who rides in a bit was in pain doing so then horses such as reining horses would have a big problem doing what they do. The very definition of a reining horse is to be willingly and effortlessly guided. If the horse is in pain that is not going to happen. Also if I have to move my hand more then a inch that is not going to happen. Also if the horse is being injured in any way from the bit or my spurs I am automatically DQ. All that time and money put into that class is gone. It could be as little as a scratch. 

How many times have you had to drop bit and be judged in such a manner?


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## Ray MacDonald

Actually I have tried that. Putting pressure on my gums and on my nose, personally I would rather a bit because it doesn't hurt has much as on my nose. And also most likely to break my nose than my jaw.


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## Ray MacDonald

And if you are pulling on a bit to stop on a dime wouldn't you also have to pull on a bitless bridle to get them to stop too?


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## nrhareiner

If you have to pull on anything to get a horse to stop you need to go back to the practice arena and do some more work.


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## smrobs

> My point is why would you use a bit if you don't have to?
> Because I want to. My bits are designed for the type and style of riding that I do, I like being able to move my hand just a couple of inches to get the desired reaction instead of having to pick up enough to actually contact the headstall. Because of the design of bits, then the horse can feel even the slightest lift of a rein, whereas with bitless, they can't. Bitless bridles are not designed to have the subtlety that I can get with a bit. It doesn't matter how well trained the horse is, if they cannot even feel the cue until you have made contact with the headstall, then there is zero refinement in your tack.
> 
> You are clearly stating in this point that you disagree with me, yet you are also saying that you are not telling people what you ride in or trying to change their views.
> :rofl: As I said, I couldn't care less what you choose to ride your horse in, that's your own business. What I disagree with is people like you trying to say that we are being cruel to our horses because "we don't understand that they would like bitless so much better because it's nicer than bits". That's a bunch of horse-pucky. You don't know my horses and to assume that you know they would like bitless better is very naive. Anyone who truly understands the mechanics of a bit and how to properly use one knows that it's all about the hands.
> 
> I majorly disagree with "Results come from what you put in their head, not what you put on it." that.


So you're telling me that you believe everything a horse does is simply because you have the right bridle on them and training has nothing to do with it? What level of understanding do you have as far as training a horse goes:?? A well trained horse will respond the same whether you ride them in a halter or a bit, the only difference is how much the rider has to move for the horse to feel the cue.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

smrobs said:


> So you're telling me that you believe everything a horse does is simply because you have the right bridle on them and training has nothing to do with it? What level of understanding do you have as far as training a horse goes:?? A well trained horse will respond the same whether you ride them in a halter or a bit, the only difference is how much the rider has to move for the horse to feel the cue.


Your couple of words " Because I want to. My bits are designed for the type and style of riding that I do, I like being able to move my hand just a couple of inches to get the desired reaction instead of having to pick up enough to actually contact the headstall. "

This depresses me. Its all about YOU. Not your horse at all! Its about what you can make your horse DO. How about the fact that horses are beings just like us they get scared, worried confused and they feel pain, but for some reason you don't seem to grasp the concept that its about the horse not what people can make them do. Its crazy. Why would I even begin to respond to the rest of your useless comments when your main principle is a mess?


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## Loveeemyhorseee

Ray MacDonald said:


> Actually I have tried that. Putting pressure on my gums and on my nose, personally I would rather a bit because it doesn't hurt has much as on my nose. And also most likely to break my nose than my jaw.



So do you have a horses mouth now? I'd like to see a picture of that. Horse mouths are sensitive. Obviously. I disagree with bits. Nothing will ever change that at all. I disagree with all of your views on bits and I wish that with the stuff that people are asking me to do like nrhareiners "exercise" you guys would consider the fact that maybe bits are better, but its obvious that you won't because *you don't want to have to change *thats the bottom line. I'm not asking you to either, but just like I did consider your opinions for a while maybe you should try mine for a while.


----------



## smrobs

Perhaps it is best that you do stick to bitless since you clearly have no idea how to properly use a bit. If you did, you wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit about this whole thing. None of this is about what I can _force_ them to do. For goodness sake, they are a thousand pound animal, if they didn't want to do something, my puny force couldn't make them. That very idea is laughable:lol:.

You are still missing the entire point, too. It is NOT about how hard you can yank on their mouth, the whole purpose of a bit is so that they can feel when you lift a rein and respond so that you DON'T have to pull on them. But, whatever. If your brainwashed little mind is so convinced that lifting the slack out of a bridle rein is so painful to a horse, then you can just stay in your own little world.

It always comes back to us horrible bit users inflicting pain on them too. Hmmm, I wonder why they still drop their heads and pick the bit up out of my hand when I go to bridle them. It must be because they are so terrorized and afraid of it, right?

And you really shouldn't preach about other people "making" their horses do anything. Everyone who owns or rides a horse is making them do something that isn't normal or natural for them. We _make _them stay in enclosed pens or stalls, we _make_ them pack us around, we _make_ them go where we want to go and do what we want to do.

If you don't like my ideas, then you are more than welcome to not read any of my posts .


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## Sunny

:clap:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loveeemyhorseee

smrobs said:


> Perhaps it is best that you do stick to bitless since you clearly have no idea how to properly use a bit. If you did, you wouldn't be throwing such a hissy fit about this whole thing. None of this is about what I can _force_ them to do. For goodness sake, they are a thousand pound animal, if they didn't want to do something, my puny force couldn't make them. That very idea is laughable:lol:.
> 
> You are still missing the entire point, too. It is NOT about how hard you can yank on their mouth, the whole purpose of a bit is so that they can feel when you lift a rein and respond so that you DON'T have to pull on them. But, whatever. If your brainwashed little mind is so convinced that lifting the slack out of a bridle rein is so painful to a horse, then you can just stay in your own little world.
> 
> It always comes back to us horrible bit users inflicting pain on them too. Hmmm, I wonder why they still drop their heads and pick the bit up out of my hand when I go to bridle them. It must be because they are so terrorized and afraid of it, right?
> 
> And you really shouldn't preach about other people "making" their horses do anything. Everyone who owns or rides a horse is making them do something that isn't normal or natural for them. We _make _them stay in enclosed pens or stalls, we _make_ them pack us around, we _make_ them go where we want to go and do what we want to do.
> 
> If you don't like my ideas, then you are more than welcome to not read any of my posts .


^ sad ^ , but as in response to your last sentence. Here is a revolutionary idea...Do your research and maybe people would give your posts the time of day  :lol:


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## smrobs

LOL, how much experience do you have successfully training horses? Horses that are soft, responsive, calm, and happy?


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## nrhareiner

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> ^ sad ^ , but as in response to your last sentence. Here is a revolutionary idea...Do your research and maybe people would give your posts the time of day  :lol:


Oh that just shows your lack of horse knowledge. I have been doing this for years and SMROBS is one of the more knowledgeable people especially on bits that I have seen. Too bad you can not see that. Perhaps when you get some time under your belt you too will under stand.


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## corinowalk

Wow. You know what I think...I think you are just here to stir up trouble. You have tangled with two very well respected horse people. I think you are no more than a trouble maker who thinks that if you make enough noise, people will magically change their minds. 

You have missed about 40 GREAT points that smrobs and nrhareiner have made! On person cannot possibly be that DULL! 

So how do you sleep at night knowing that you strap a saddle to your horses back? 

How do you live with yourself knowing that you feed your horse a diet that isn't even close to being natural. 

How can you look at yourself in the mirror while your horse is being kept against his will in a paddock? Or God forbid, a stall!


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## Loveeemyhorseee

nrhareiner said:


> Oh that just shows your lack of horse knowledge. I have been doing this for years and SMROBS is one of the more knowledgeable people especially on bits that I have seen. Too bad you can not see that. Perhaps when you get some time under your belt you too will under stand.


I don't see it at all. I don't see your "knowledge" with bits either. I hate that there is "knowledgeable" people on the topic of bits because I wish they didn't exist, but as usually people don't want to change so they don't look at the reality of things. I mean this post to SMROBS and you.


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## smrobs

And what deity, exactly, made you the omniscient voice for reality? That is honestly some of the most naive arrogance I have seen in quite some time.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no issue at all with people who choose to ride bitless, that is their own personal decision and I guess it was too much to expect that same respect from people like _you_.

You may wish that bits didn't exist, but as the old saying goes "Wish in one hand, crap in the other and see which one fills up faster".

Liars always think you are lying to them,
Thieves always think you are stealing from them,
Closed minded people always see others as the ones unwilling to change.

You never did answer my question though,* how many horses have to trained from start to finish and ended up with soft, responsive, happy horses? *


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## corinowalk

Don't worry smrobs, she didn't answer my questions either. I believe she is the little girl with her fingers in her ears...nannananana can't hear you! Bits are baaad m'kay?!


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## smrobs

Oh, I'm not worried, I'm actually having quite a fun time on this thread .


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## smrobs

Darn, she ran off again:-(.

I wonder if she is one of those trolls who comes over from other forums to try to rile us up? Second to that, I wonder if she even knows that starting all this drama is actually fun for some of us?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

hahahahahahaha!!!!! you two are cracking me up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Ok loveeemyhorseee, I must say that I find it insulting how you seem to think you know my horse better than I, to tell me that my horse would prefer bitless but I just want to control her so I make her go in a bit anyway and cause her pain. 

Here is a photo of my gorgeous girl...









Now in this photo, I was taking her on a walk on the trails, one of her favorite things to do. Notice NO TACK I'm just walking beside her with just her halter and lead rope. Why am I doing this? Because she was coming off of an injury she sustained in the pasture and she washn't rideable at the time. But I wanted her to still be able to do one of her fave things, going trail riding with me  

So let me ask you...do I still sound like the sort of person that would purposefully inflict pain on my horse just to control her?

Still not convinced? Ok here's another...










Again, halter and lead rope only...this was just a lazy day when we wanted to bask in the sunlight one spring...this was NOT in an enclosed paddock, it was in the yard. I trust her and she trusts me, and she let me jump up onto her back from the ground without so much as a twitch of her nose. She enjoys the sunshine and eating grass  And I enjoy being with her and the sunshine as well! Still sound like I'm a cruel mouth-ripping monster??? 

My mare is my baby girl - I don't have children but she more than fills that hole for me. I love her more than most people, and I would NEVER do anything to cause her pain.

As I've said before, I have tried riding her in a figure 8 which uses pressure on the nose and she told me right away that she HATED that, by throwing her head around and swishing her tail and getting quick and short with her steps. So I respected that and switched her back to her french link snaffle and her regular noseband which I leave loose for her. She immediately calmed down and went right into our workout, no tail swishing or head tossing.

In dressage, if the judge sees that the horse is not happy, by observing any or all of the things I mentioned above, you lose points on your test. They want a horse who respects her rider and is willingly doing the movements asked of her. So if she was being caused pain by the bit, she likely wouldn't be scoring very high, and we were Champion of our division in Eventing last year so I don't think that's the case  

Ok...so, one last thing...you think you know my horse better than I...fill out this questionnaire and see how many you actually get correct...

1. What is my mare's favorite food?
2. Where is her favorite spot to be scratched?
3. Does she like to be groomed?
4. How about when I have the equine masseuse come to give her an hour-long massage, a luxury I don't even give to myself?
5. What's her favorite thing to do within the three phases of Eventing?
6. What does she do when I make kissy noises to her out in the pasture?
7. What tricks does she know? 

Go ahead and try to fill that in, I'll give you the answers when you're done  

I'll leave you with this final photo...my mare is my fur baby...she is a part of my family. We make a trip out to the barn each year in the dead of winter to make sure she is part of our family's Christmas photo. *Do you still think I would do anything to cause her pain?*


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## nrhareiner

smrobs said:


> Darn, she ran off again:-(.
> 
> I wonder if she is one of those trolls who comes over from other forums to try to rile us up? Second to that, I wonder if she even knows that starting all this drama is actually fun for some of us?


I agree. I hope she sticks around.


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## nrhareiner

Oh that Santa hat is causing so much pain. You need to stop that right now. Look at that horses face. Look at the pain. I tell you are being so mean to her. LOL


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## corinowalk

I don't know about the horse HITS, but the greyhound looks a little uncomfortable...LOL


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## Ray MacDonald

Hoofprints in the Sand- Thats such a cute X-mas pic! She's like "I wanna be in the picture too!"


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## smrobs

Aw, I love Sandie, she's such a doll and I can certainly tell that she is horribly abused:roll:.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

lol yeah Kemper our Whippet wanted to go eat the barn cats who were playing in the trees while we were trying to take that photo!  

And oh yes can't you see how much pain I cause my horse? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon

I'm going to ignore your ignorance right now, loveeemyhorseee and say I ride bitless and WISH I could use a bit. I don't because my throws a huge fit because she doesn't like things in her mouth. Riding her with a simple O-ring snaffle results in pinned ears, deviant attitude, and head throwing. 

I ride her in a sidepull with pressure knots on the noseband, which she does much better in, but I would rather use a curb on her. Before I got her, I was used to riding a different mare that would pick up a bit from my hand and hold it while I put the rest of the bridle on and I could barely move my hands to get her to move how I wanted. I don't have that anymore. I have to move my hands all over the place. I can't just make small movements with my pinky fingers to get a response; I have to move my entire hand a at least an inch.


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## HowClever

You know what I love? When a total newbie comes on and tells some of the most respected members that they know nothing! It's hilarious! 

Now, if you will excuse me I have to run out to the paddock and tell Rex that obviously he just doesn't know any better and that is why he acts up when I ride him in the halter. All that relaxation and focus he has with his lovely snaffle is obviously just because he is so used to it.


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## MN Tigerstripes

HC, he's probably a masochist.... That's why he likes his bit so much.


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## WalkerLady

Ah, Hoofprints, that Christmas photo brought tears to my eyes! Do you send out Christmas cards with it?


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## WalkerLady

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> Its all about YOU. Not your horse at all! Its about what you can make your horse DO.


Loveee, what exactly is it about when YOU put a bitless bridle on your horse? Are you telling me you don't do that because you want your horse to take you someplace, in other words, YOU make your horse DO something?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

WalkerLady said:


> Ah, Hoofprints, that Christmas photo brought tears to my eyes! Do you send out Christmas cards with it?


Yes we do it every year 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HowClever

MN Tigerstripes said:


> HC, he's probably a masochist.... That's why he likes his bit so much.


*sigh* This is going to cost me a fortune in therapy bills for him isn't it? Just so he understands that the bit is an evil thing that hurts him so much.


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## smrobs

Shhhh, *whispers* horses who are insane don't know they're insane, if nobody tells him he should be in agonizing pain and terrified of all things metal because of it, then he'll never know better :twisted:.


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## HowClever

Ahh, Smrobs, always the font of wisdom! So I can carry on abusing him with the nasty hunk of metal?

ETA: Look at the terror in his eyes! And a flash noseband too!


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## smrobs

Why not? I plan to continue abusing mine with bits as well. Curb bits no less.........Oh, the humanity!!!

Oh wow, I'm going to call PETA on you, he's obviously scarred beyond all repair.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

what a tortured animal...it's clear that he only looks happy because you are forcing him to with a magical piece of metal.

hmmmm...still waiting on the answers to my earlier questions...she doesn't seem like the type to not have something to say. wonder where she went?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

Well if they do need some out side help I wonder if we could get a group discount?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

was this thread just stickied?? lol 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon

I think it's been stickied for quite some time..



nrhareiner said:


> Well if they do need some out side help I wonder if we could get a group discount?


Hey you could go down to Horse Talk and find the animal communicator thread and find one to ask what your horses think of the god-awful torture devise in their mouths! I'm sure that'll clear everything up. Maybe the group discount thing will work.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

never mind...I thought I saw that it was but now it's not...I'm losing my mind. must be bit madness 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Poseidon said:


> I think it's been stickied for quite some time..
> 
> 
> 
> Hey you could go down to Horse Talk and find the animal communicator thread and find one to ask what your horses think of the god-awful torture devise in their mouths! I'm sure that'll clear everything up. Maybe the group discount thing will work.


ooooo fabulous idea! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Bit madness, I like that. 

Nope, you didn't see wrong. It's been stickied for a while.

A group discount would be lovely. More horses = a bigger discount, right? Because, after all, I do have quite a few horses and they have all been enduring the torture of bits all their lives.


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## Poseidon

You just got a couple more horses too!


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## smrobs

Oh, but they belong to my brother, I would have to clear their therapy through him. I bet they need it more than others though, because he prefers *gasp* a curb bit with 8" shanks:shock:. It must be so horrible for them.


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## Poseidon

Well, ****. They better be first in line for therapy.

Of course, your brother will have read this thread and know about the absolute insanity he is causing them.


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## HowClever

I must be real terrible too. I have 7 horses all of whom have been and are subected to the torture of a bit. I have one poor, poor mare who got to spend four years as a broodie. I stuck a bit in her mouth last week too! Oh, the horror!


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## nrhareiner

Poseidon said:


> I think it's been stickied for quite some time..
> 
> 
> 
> Hey you could go down to Horse Talk and find the animal communicator thread and find one to ask what your horses think of the god-awful torture devise in their mouths! I'm sure that'll clear everything up. Maybe the group discount thing will work.



Now there is an idea. All of mine think their bits are food. Do you think it might be some iron deficiency??


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## nrhareiner

Oh no mine show in a Mylar cathedral port bit. They must really be insane.


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## Poseidon

Obviously. Why else would they just pick them up out of your hand? I suppose I should sit down with Poseidon in a few months and ask her why she thinks her bit is food too.


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## smrobs

OMG, mine are the same way!! The insanity is catching!!! Everyone run, quarantine your horses immediately!!

I fear, even with therapy, that several of mine may be completely beyond help .


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## apachewhitesox

I like how this thread has been going for awhile quite interesting hehe. I don't get why people have to bash eachother just because they don't like what somone uses. My mare hates the pressure caused by bitless and is very soft in a bit in fact I barely need to touch it because she is so good with leg and seat aids. That would all be due to her training. 
But I do love that picture in the snow its very cute everyone all rugged up.


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## Poseidon

These bitless people would love to meet Abby. She's basically the definition of the horses they're describing. I'm assuming her second owner did something to her at some point. She's terrified of lunge whips too. Her previous owner said he had her about two weeks and had her super sensitive to cues, but super uptight. She doesn't get a bit because I don't want to eat dirt every time I ride.

While we've got this massive discount from the therapist, I may throw Abby in and see what her problem is with bits.


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## Tabycat

I am new to this forum so first... hello all, I have to say this is a very interesting thread but seems to have gone a little out to left field. Bit's are a big hunk of metal in your horses mouth that can do a lot of damage and all you people out there making fun of people that don't like bits, you best not forget that. I have no problems with bits but more with the hands that use them. 

Personally when I am teaching my students I can not stress enough that it's never about the bit it's about the respect that your horse has for you and for pressure. If your horse clearly understands how to move off pressure then you do not need a bit for simple things. I teach all basics to my horses in a halter and then move up to a bit to refine head position. But other then that I ride in a halter on the trail or for basic schooling.


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## nrhareiner

Tabycat said:


> I am new to this forum so first... hello all,
> *First welcome to the forum. Glade you have come to join us.*
> 
> I have to say this is a very interesting thread but seems to have gone a little out to left field. Bit's are a big hunk of metal in your horses mouth that can do a lot of damage and all you people out there making fun of people that don't like bits, you best not forget that. I have no problems with bits but more with the hands that use them.
> 
> *Bits are not just a "big hunk of metal" they are a tool just like any other tool. Used properly they can and do make a very light and responsive horse. Used improperly they can do damage. No different then any other tool including a bit-less bridle or a rope halter. They can do just as much damage in the wrong hands.*
> 
> Personally when I am teaching my students I can not stress enough that it's never about the bit it's about the respect that your horse has for you and for pressure. If your horse clearly understands how to move off pressure then you do not need a bit for simple things. I teach all basics to my horses in a halter and then move up to a bit to refine head position. But other then that I ride in a halter on the trail or for basic schooling.


I agree it is all about the hands. As for basic training. I still want the refinement I get from a bit. That starts day one. I do not want to have to go back and refine what has already been taught. I want that to start from day one. No reason to have to reteach something that could have just as easily been taught the first time through. This is why I use the best trainers I can find for my horses. I do not want to have to redo things.


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## Sunny

Ahem.

We aren't making fun of people who don't like bits. We are "making fun of" those who think people who use bits are abusive monsters.
:wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

^^ What she said. I have some very good friends who I respect immensely that do not use bits on their horses. I never make fun of them for it. But they don't tell me I'm intentionally abusing my horse by putting a bit in their mouth.


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## Tabycat

nrhareiner said:


> I agree it is all about the hands. As for basic training. I still want the refinement I get from a bit. That starts day one. I do not want to have to go back and refine what has already been taught. I want that to start from day one. No reason to have to reteach something that could have just as easily been taught the first time through. This is why I use the best trainers I can find for my horses. I do not want to have to redo things.




I guess that is where you and I differ, I like to break things down and take things slower. I would never expect a horse to be refined when first learning. Refinement for me come after basic understanding. I don't like to get picky with the horse when it's first being taught a I like the horse to succeed with the littlest try. 

For me I don't look at it as redoing things but having the horses education grow.


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## nrhareiner

Tabycat said:


> I guess that is where you and I differ, I like to break things down and take things slower. I would never expect a horse to be refined when first learning. Refinement for me come after basic understanding. I don't like to get picky with the horse when it's first being taught a I like the horse to succeed with the littlest try.
> 
> For me I don't look at it as redoing things but having the horses education grow.


It is not about picking at the horse or refinement as in the finished product. 

I am talking about when I direct rein a horse who is just staring I also lay the other rein on their neck and put my outside leg on their side. This way they are learning all the cues at the same time. Now the second they give all the cues are removed. 

I also as does my trainer teach the horse to move every inch of their body before they ever move out of the walk. Once they have this then they are moved up to the trot and so on. Not sure you can get much slower then that. Solid well trained horses who are willingly and effortlessly guided is the end goal and what we end up with. I will say that my trainer is much better at it then I am but that is also why I use him.


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## WalkerLady

Sunny said:


> Ahem.
> 
> We aren't making fun of people who don't like bits. We are "making fun of" those who think people who use bits are abusive monsters.
> :wink:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, Luveee brought all that "making fun of" on herself. She has no respect for opinions that disagree with hers, but is unable to defend her own opinion in a logical, thoughtful manner when her inconsistencies are pointed out.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

^^ that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

and Taby you mention only using a bit to refine head position...what do you train I'm just curious? My understanding at least in dressage is that you don't use the bit to place the head in a certain carriage...that should all drive from behind. A bit when used properly with other leg and seat cues can be used to teach that but I got the impression from your post that you teach it first then use the bit last to teach head carriage? 

Just curious...not being rude so don't take it that way...unless you want to and then you'll have to deal with my posse here 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

Potential boarder (PB): Hi, I'm calling in response to your ad about boarding. Do you still have any openings?

Potential boarding barn (PBB):Yes, we have a lot of openings.

PB: Can you tell me a little about your place?

PBB: We're not cruel here.

PB: Well..Ok.. that's good to know.

PBB: We're a bitless barn.

PB: What does that mean?

PBB: We don't allow use of bits on our horsies. We call them horsies. Calling them horses is cruel. You don't use a bit do you?

PB: Uh, yes I do. I show my horse, uh, I mean horsie.

PBB: Showing is cruel. It forces horsies to do what they don't want to do.

PB: I like the challenge of competition, my horse-horsie does too.

PBB: We have competitions here. We see who can join the most horsie forums & tell people how wrong they are for using bits. It's a great time.

PB:Oh..Ok I gotta go now.

PBB: Let me tell you why bits are bad for horsies.

PB:click


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## smrobs

LOL, indeed.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

lol!!!!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

Good one.


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## Tabycat

WalkerLady said:


> Yes, Luveee brought all that "making fun of" on herself. She has no respect for opinions that disagree with hers, but is unable to defend her own opinion in a logical, thoughtful manner when her inconsistencies are pointed out.


Lets get it straight you are bullying, not making fun of someone. I wonder what your parents would think if they saw this?

And what bothers me most is that you think you get the right to bully when someone else as you put it* "has no respect for opinions that disagree with hers, but is unable to defend her own opinion in a logical, thoughtful manner when her inconsistencies are pointed out." *And you are doing the same thing if not 1000 x worse .

You guys are bullying your point through instead of doing it in the *" logical, thoughtful manner"* you didn't get through to her so you turn to this instead.
So please... don't think for one second think you have a right to bully someone to teach them a lesson and please don't try and convince me that you are making fun of someone because they brought it upon them selves, wrong girl you have made the choice to do it to them and no one has the right to do that to another human being. Call it for what it is and put the blame where it belongs.


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## Tabycat

nrhareiner said:


> It is not about picking at the horse or refinement as in the finished product.
> 
> I am talking about when I direct rein a horse who is just staring I also lay the other rein on their neck and put my outside leg on their side. This way they are learning all the cues at the same time. Now the second they give all the cues are removed.
> 
> I also as does my trainer teach the horse to move every inch of their body before they ever move out of the walk. Once they have this then they are moved up to the trot and so on. Not sure you can get much slower then that. Solid well trained horses who are willingly and effortlessly guided is the end goal and what we end up with. I will say that my trainer is much better at it then I am but that is also why I use him.


I am sorry a miss understanding I was talking about refinement as for me refinement does meen to refine the teachings as in close to the finished product. What you are describing about placing the rein on the neck would be basic training for me. 

Everyone trains differently I just chose to do it in a halter and use the bit for refinement.

Sounds like your trainer does a good job!


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## Tabycat

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> and Taby you mention only using a bit to refine head position...what do you train I'm just curious? My understanding at least in dressage is that you don't use the bit to place the head in a certain carriage...that should all drive from behind. A bit when used properly with other leg and seat cues can be used to teach that but I got the impression from your post that you teach it first then use the bit last to teach head carriage?
> 
> Just curious...not being rude so don't take it that way...unless you want to and then you'll have to deal with my posse here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I prefer to do my dressage my self but I do also teach a very basic western. 

When I say bit to refine head position I should explain I find the halter a lot sloppier then the bit when it comes to communication and refinement for the head and neck positions. You are absolutely right that you drive the horse from being into collection and I am someone that rides through the seat not hands but the horse still can drop it's head to low or bend the jawline incorrectly so to correct that to what is considered in proper position you need something that can communicate a little better then a halter so I use the bit. But this is for finished product not for basic training this is for when I can get a little bit picky :wink:. Hope that helps.


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## nrhareiner

I use a curb bit to do the refining I need. First b/c that is what you show in and also you need less movement of your hand. Which a snaffle will not give you however it is a lot closer then a halter or even a bit-less bridle.

However all this starts with the snaffle. They learn to move off the slightest movement of my hand. Which is the very start of refinement. I do not pull my horses around even at the beginning of training.


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## Tabycat

nrhareiner said:


> I use a curb bit to do the refining I need. First b/c that is what you show in and also you need less movement of your hand. Which a snaffle will not give you however it is a lot closer then a halter or even a bit-less bridle.


 My horse does moves off of the slightest of hand and that was done in the halter not a bit. If my rope even heads toward the neck they read my body position and know to move off of it. When I ride it's to improve how in tuned my horse are to my body, I ride of my seat not hands and they have been trained to do so.
So that is where we are going to differ in our opinions my horses are prof that it can be done so I say it can be done and you say it cant. Each to there own


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## nrhareiner

Never said it can not be done. What I am saying is that it is more efficient to just start in a bit as that will get you to the same place a bit faster. No real pun intended. Ok maybe.

There is so much time spent at the beginning butting a very solid basics on the horse that there is no need to start them in anything but a snaffle. I would wager that you do not spend several months at the walk before you move on to the trot. I do as dose my trainer. It take a good 2 years to get a reiner ready to show and about 5 years before I would even consider them close to finished. So at the beginning a lot of time is put into getting the horse to move off your leg seat bit and reins. Every inch of their body. Not just one part and then this is repeated at the trot. By the time you get to the lope everything is there. So there is not much use to start them in any thing other then a snaffle.

That is not saying you can not or should not if you wish however to me it is a bit of a wast time.


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## Tabycat

nrhareiner said:


> Never said it can not be done. What I am saying is that it is more efficient to just start in a bit as that will get you to the same place a bit faster. No real pun intended. Ok maybe.
> 
> There is so much time spent at the beginning butting a very solid basics on the horse that there is no need to start them in anything but a snaffle. I would wager that you do not spend several months at the walk before you move on to the trot. I do as dose my trainer. It take a good 2 years to get a reiner ready to show and about 5 years before I would even consider them close to finished. So at the beginning a lot of time is put into getting the horse to move off your leg seat bit and reins. Every inch of their body. Not just one part and then this is repeated at the trot. By the time you get to the lope everything is there. So there is not much use to start them in any thing other then a snaffle.
> 
> That is not saying you can not or should not if you wish however to me it is a bit of a wast time.


You are correct your do spend a lot more time at the walk then I do and that is wonderful. 

But the biggest thing that differs between you and I are our goals. Your goal is to show and mine is to have my horse ride brideless. No bit so I must take the mesures I need to get there as do you. For me putting a bit on defeats the purpose as to you putting a halter on defeats yours.


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## nrhareiner

The thing is that I can get there just as easy as you can. I can and do drop bridle quite a bit when working the horses. More for me then for them. The thing is when I do it I am doing it at speed and asking for turns and sliding stops. Which they will do easily and readily. Reiners have been showing horses bridleless since the 70's.

The end goal should not be brildless or bit less but a well trained good responsive horse who is willing and effortless guided. 

If you get to your goal then that is really all that counts. However do not think just b/c my goal is to show that my horses can not and do not do the same thing. 

It is like people seem to think b/c my horses are show horses they they can not trail ride. Trail riding is a big part of the training. Even my trainer takes the horses in training on trail rides about once a week in the summer.


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## WalkerLady

Tabycat said:


> Lets get it straight you are bullying, not making fun of someone. I wonder what your parents would think if they saw this?
> 
> And what bothers me most is that you think you get the right to bully when someone else as you put it* "has no respect for opinions that disagree with hers, but is unable to defend her own opinion in a logical, thoughtful manner when her inconsistencies are pointed out." *And you are doing the same thing if not 1000 x worse .
> 
> You guys are bullying your point through instead of doing it in the *" logical, thoughtful manner"* you didn't get through to her so you turn to this instead.
> So please... don't think for one second think you have a right to bully someone to teach them a lesson and please don't try and convince me that you are making fun of someone because they brought it upon them selves, wrong girl you have made the choice to do it to them and no one has the right to do that to another human being. Call it for what it is and put the blame where it belongs.


 
I didn't make a choice to do anything to anybody because I personally never "made fun of her". All I did was ask a few questions to try to clarify where she stood on some things. 

The point of my post was that, in my opinion, some people do bring teasing upon themselves. If you come onto a forum, tell everybody who does things a certain way that they're completely, 100% wrong, and then refuse to listen when they try to explain, but just keep saying, "You're wrong, you're mean, you're so cruel to your horse" - honestly, what do you expect is going to happen? How do you think most people are going to react to you? People are only human and many are going to get irritated, especially when they know how much they love and care for their horses.

I don't in any way, shape, or form condone bullying, but this wasn't bullying. There's a huge difference between being an innocent victim of bullying and being an agitator who's looking for trouble. IMO, she came here to pick a fight and she got a fight.


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## wild_spot

> But the biggest thing that differs between you and I are our goals. Your goal is to show and mine is to have my horse ride brideless. No bit so I must take the mesures I need to get there as do you. For me putting a bit on defeats the purpose as to you putting a halter on defeats yours


Bridleless is a result of good training in a bit.

I can take my bridle off and gallop, haunch turn, rollback, back up - Anything I can do in a bit I can do bridleless, with no practice, because of good training.


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## christopher

wild_spot said:


> Bridleless is a result of good training in a bit.
> 
> I can take my bridle off and gallop, haunch turn, rollback, back up - Anything I can do in a bit I can do bridleless, with no practice, because of good training.


not specifically.

i don't recommend people with closed minds read the following, because it's bound to start a debate.

recently i've started experimenting with a means of starting a horse bridleless (bareback, the saddling process would complicate it enough to have it take years possibly, and does a rope around their neck count as a bridle?) and it's going very well so far. not been bucked, and the particular unhandled horse i'm trying it out on hasn't taken a step out of line yet. so far she walks up to greet me when she sees me in the pasture, we can mount, walk around, steer, stop & backup on command with the rope and legs as my aids. the rest will come in time though as those are the prerequisites for pretty much everything other than performance disciplines. she'll be a good bridleless riding horse though. only equipment used is about 5ft of fairly thin polyester rope. puts most "natural" horsemanship to shame IMO (even though it's based on 3 things, something i've been doing for a while that i found out was loosely similar to "join up" by monty roberts for getting the horse accepting of my leadership & happy in my presence, parelli's "friendly game" for mounting and dismounting, and parelli's "porcupine game" for getting her sensitive to the rope aids)

the process is certainly taking it's time. i've been at it with this horse for 1+ hours daily for about a month just doing those 3 things, and i've tried different things regarding it on saddle/halter broke horses for up to 6 months.

it's certainly not practical, more just something i'm doing out of curiosity. and of course i wouldn't recommend even thinking about such a thing unless you know exactly what your doing. it is extremely dangerous and takes very much patience.

i guess it's something that will take a very long time to understand properly if your used to doing things a certain way and with certain equipment, but how do you think the first person who ever encountered a horse did it?:lol:


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## DunOverIt

wild_spot said:


> Bridleless is a result of good training in a bit.
> 
> I can take my bridle off and gallop, haunch turn, rollback, back up - Anything I can do in a bit I can do bridleless, with no practice, because of good training.


*high five*


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## ButtInTheDirt

Softness is definately a key to good horsemanship. My sister angers me so much with constantly pulling on my mare's mouth, I'd just like to slap her, but apparently that's not nice. But neither is bullying a horse by trying to controll it intirely with a bit shoved in it's face.

But I really know almost nothing about the different types of bits. I don't even know the type that I use. I think this site needs some sort of gallery of bits for those people like me with no brain.


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## smrobs

There is a couple of threads that have been stickied under the "Tack and Equipment" section. There is one that discussed snaffles and another that discusses curbs.


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## Katze

Awesome post guys =) I always thought that a reg snaffle was the way to go. My trainer drummed it into me to keep my hands soft soft soft! Had many many training sessions where the reins were dropped and I had to "command the horse with my legs, back and seat. If only all lessons required that i'm sure there would be more riders with a softer touch.


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## Gwill

well said


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## SouthernComfort

I haven't read through all this, sorry. I have a couple of questions.

Can someone tell me about a tom thumb? When and for what its used? I've always ridden in a d ring snaffle or bosal. Never thought about the others. They seem harsh.


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## christopher

from what i'm told tom thumb bits are absolutely terrible.


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## smrobs

It's not so much that they are these horrible, terrible, cruel bits or anything; they just have a flawed design. For a horse and rider that is very good at neck reining, rides on loose reins, and has super soft hands, I'm sure they can get along very well with a TT. However, I just don't understand why anyone would want to use one when there are much better bit options out there. I have tried one and I absolutely hated the feel that it gave me (or lack thereof) in the horse's mouth.

As opposed to typing out the whole explanation, I will just post this link. It may have been posted at some point during this thread but I can't remember.
Trouble with Tom Thumb


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## Sarahandlola

When I got my horse she was ridden in a snaffle. She did fine in it apart from trying to evade it from time to time. Then someone suggested I try her in dutch gag. Stupid mistake on my part!! I have to have the reins on the third ring now =/ She has become so strong because of the bit. I tried her on the first ring one day and she totally ran away from me =/ I now know she was fine in the snaffle. She was not strong at all! Is there anyway I can get her into a snaffle again without her taking off the whole time? She had a single jointed snaffle and now she has a french link dutch gag. How can I tell which she finds more comfotable? French link, single jointed, double jointed etc. She is a TB...What does every other TB owners use for their horses? 

I am thinking if I find the right mouth piece she will like the bit more because she has hated all I have tried so far.


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## Bandera

Well i have a tb/warmblood so i know there general temperment. My horse is 6 and CRAZY, green, and really hard and takes off a lot. Out cross country my trainer had me in a WATERFORD Dutch Gag lol. It was on the bottom or the middle hole. I switched trainers and my new trainer put her in a loose ring french link (Herm Sprenger KK ultra) and she got used to having that bit in. Its not always the bit though but the hands. Horses that normally have to go ot stronger bits tend to have riders that really on there hands to much and hang on them which makes them insensitive to the bit. When i had my dutch gag on my horse i barely used it and that might be where u went wrong. I tend to think of putting stronger bits on the horse and only using the bit when the horse is out of control. To use a strong but you must have a very independent seat and not be hard on the reins. U might think thats impossible with your horse but i promise you my horse is probably worse (i have heard by a few trainers she is one of the hardest horses they have seen.. ) Even with the new bit she listens because i barely use it. There really is not way to wean her off. I guess you can work on putting the reins on the 2nd hole and then snaffle ring and try not ot really so much with your hands. Once she starts listening then transfer back over to the regular bit! Hope this helps


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## angelsgrace

thankyou some one needed to say that i agreed with everything but i'm still not very experienced along the lines of retraining horses and i have this mare and the hardest bit i've ridden her in is a very this snaffle but as soon as i tryed i new it was making the problem worse,
so i stopped using it so now i use a sweet iron eggbutt snaffle or a french link for jumping but they are both softbits the problem is.
When i bought her i was still young but i had been riding for 3 years so i had some idea what i was doing,The prevous owner had dumbed her onto the agistment owner who said to me that he used a twisted bit with long shanks and she still has scar tissue from that i.e he was cruel.

So i expected a lot of time and work to get her to trust me it took two years but her mouth (entire body) was still incredibly hard (she bolted a lot and had general trouble with understanding the messages i was trying to put across so i trained her to halter and road my other horses when i went to comps etc that using a bit were required i did not give up though, 
So i started natural horseman ship and doing dressage to calm her down and form a good communication between us.

But she does still bolt and tightening her neck muscles when i try to turn her even in a halter or bozal. i've worked on flexing her as well, she has had a saddle fitted correctly her teeth done and back checked there is not physical reason.
She is a Brumby so i get that she loves to run buti would just like some help to fix it or even help me understand it so i can ask people or just work on it my self i just want to help her. Sorry about the spelling and grammar i'm working on it.


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## Country Girl

wild_spot said:


> ^ a snaffle is ANY bit without any leverage,
> 
> That is Not 100% true, there are snaffle bits (like the Baucher or "B" Ring Bit) that works on leverage and the polls, but stills has the softness and suppleness of an normal snaffle. You can also get the mouth pieces in in different styles as well...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Baucher Bit
> 
> 
> And than you can also get "D" rings with hooks inside the rings pices for the check and riens (Kinda like a Uxeter Kimberwick) to have yet again slight poll and leverage action...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'D' Ring With Hooks
> 
> Out of these two bits the Baucher is classified as a TRUE Snaffle bit according to Dressage Canada Rules and Regulations and the "D" ring - showen above is not classified as a true snaffle - according yet agian to Dressage Canada - because this bit tends to have more of a "Softer and not as harsh action" than a Uxeter Kimberwick (if there is suck as thing)...
> 
> I would Like to note that these two bits are not your starting or average bits for training or starting a young horse, because of the level of leverage they can produce. But if used right in the properly trained hands and rider can be an excellent transitional tool/bit to used when introducing poll action or slight curb action to your horse.
> 
> Now a True Snaffle, is based on the check piece styles:
> 
> Loose Ring
> 'D' Ring
> Egg-Butt
> Full Check
> Fulmur
> Baucher Bit
> Half Check
> Offset 'D' - Traditionally more of a western snaffle, but is also used in English
> Than Based on the Style of the Mouth Piece:
> 
> Straight Bar Mouth Piece
> Mullen
> 
> Single Jointed
> One of the more common mouth piece - depeneding on your deiscilpine of choice - has a nut cracker affect in the wrong hands
> 
> Double Jointed or three piece mouth piece
> French Link
> Dr. Bristol
> Berry
> Peanut
> Half Moon
> 
> I dont know if a life saver piece would be classified in this area of the snaffle. It is more of a western mouth piece and I have never seen in used in the english world... :S... please correct me if Im wrong, but thisw is what I have been taught and told all through my riding career, and is also the rules and regulations from Dressage Canada.
> _______________________________________________________________
> 
> Smrobs... I totally agree with you on this!!! Its kinda scary how many trianers, riders, coachs, etc. would rather bit than ride and wonder why the horse is all over the place on the flat and (even more scary) over fences!!! I knew of one coach in the circuit that put a double twisted full check in a short stirrups pony because the child could not control it! Instead of training the young rider properly they "bitted", SCARY!!!
> 
> I have another firend who moved up to the 1.20m class last summer. She was riding her mare in a Happy mouth Jointed 'D' ring, the mare went well in it and the rider always was in control... but at one show we went to, she had an coach come up to her and handed her a pelham, and told her "At this level of riding we dont used baby bits, we use real bits..." I than was quick to say... "Than what does that make Ian Miller who rode Big Ben in a Loose ring snaffle during his carrer with him?" She did not repsonsed at all to me, she just walked away with the bit... I should also mention that this coach walked out with her students still riding in a Jill Henselwood Clinic last year. Because Jill told her "Top Student" to ride her horse in a plain snaffle at home for training, not in a crub...
> 
> Its almost like when you get to a certain point in your riding and show career, snaffle bits are baby bits and should not be used. Which in turn results in too many ill trained riders/coaches/trainers using the bit in the wrong way in the wrong hands... Thats my opinion and I have seen it so much in the Hunter/Jumper - because that what I started my riding career in, now Im doing classical dressage - pro snaffle  - world here in Canada... its scary adn dangerous how many riders/trainer/coaches cant use a bit in the proper way... its just wrong, dangerous and scary to see what they are doing to the horses!!!
> 
> *LEARN TO RIDE PROPERLY AND WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG GO BACK TO BASICS BY TAKING AWAY ALLL ARTIFICAL AIDS AND GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE!!!*


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

^^to me, the most ridiculous part of what that trainer did wasn't to suggest a pelham, it was that she was SHOVING it down your friend's throat!!! I absolutely HATE when people do that...she does NOT know that horse, doesn't know the horse's training, doesn't know what the horse likes and does not like, and has no business telling you what to use.

Are there horses out there who need a little more than just a snaffle though, or that may even prefer something different? Sure are. Can a lot of horses just be ridden in a snaffle their whole lives? Sure can. It's all on an individual basis though, I wish more people would figure that out.


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## wild_spot

Actually, a baucher has no leverage action because the reins do not attach lower than the mouthpiece, so they don't cause any rotation of the mouthpiece or engage the purchase. The purchase (The shanks above the mouthpiece) only serves one purpose - Keeping the bit in a specific position in the mouth and keeping it still, in that position. Many horses with nervous mouths like these bits because they are still and quiet, much like a full cheek with keepers.



> And than you can also get "D" rings with hooks inside the rings pices for the check and riens (Kinda like a Uxeter Kimberwick) to have yet again slight poll and leverage action...


Once you introduce an attachment point below the mouthpiece and a purchase above the mouthpiece, it is not longer a snaffle. This bit could be used as a snaffle by not using the hooks - But using the hooks, it becomes a mild gag (Due to the absence of a curb chain, the mouthpiece lifts in the mouths instead of rotating and putting pressure downward on the jaw, poll and chin groove).

It is a simplistic way to say it - But is is true that a snaffle is a bit without leverage.


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## Sunny

^ Agreed, WS. Took the words right out of my mouth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Country Girl

wild_spot said:


> Actually, a baucher has no leverage action because the reins do not attach lower than the mouthpiece, so they don't cause any rotation of the mouthpiece or engage the purchase. The purchase (The shanks above the mouthpiece) only serves one purpose - Keeping the bit in a specific position in the mouth and keeping it still, in that position. Many horses with nervous mouths like these bits because they are still and quiet, much like a full cheek with keepers.
> 
> 
> 
> Once you introduce an attachment point below the mouthpiece and a purchase above the mouthpiece, it is not longer a snaffle. This bit could be used as a snaffle by not using the hooks - But using the hooks, it becomes a mild gag (Due to the absence of a curb chain, the mouthpiece lifts in the mouths instead of rotating and putting pressure downward on the jaw, poll and chin groove).
> 
> It is a simplistic way to say it - But is is true that a snaffle is a bit without leverage.


okay, than I stand corrected... but answer this for me (cause im a little confused, because I was taught it did have levrage and work the poll) does it work the poll at all, and if so how much? And that it does have any or very slight leverage at all like an ordinary Kimberwick, or was I taught wrong on how the this bit actually works? :S

And the "d" ring with hooks, if it acts like a mild gag, than why is it still considered a snaffle - cause thats what I was told. Or is this another perfect example of people using bits, and not really knowing how they work or what they actually do in the horses mouth?

and what would be the ratio for a plan snaffle is it 1:1? Than what about the "D" ring with hooks whats that ratio? and how do you actually determine this ratio?

I think I have been mis lead whenit comes to the snaffle and curb on how they actually work and what not... please help me!!! lol 
Hoofprints in the Sand, This women does this all the time... and really sucks!!!


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## Sunny

Countrygirl, I just have to commend you for not getting angry when you were corrected. I was expecting a snotty response, but you acted very mature. Thank you for that. 

I will let WS answer your questions, as she has much more bit knowledge that I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Country Girl

sunny, I was wrong... so what, Im on here to learn and share the knowledge that I have to offer... and because of that I love it when im called out like this... cause I get to learn something new that can/will help improve my horsemanship and share... and you guys were nice about it as well, so I have no reason to be snotty


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## Sunny

And that's great. However, many new members on here certainly don't see it that way. So I really appreciate your maturity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## buttons

OK.... I AM ONE OF THOSE DUMB HORSE PEOPLE.... My 18 yr old daughter has a VERY well trained horse that has done it all... 6 day trail rides, ropping,barrels, poles, and elk hunting. We got him from a family member that was kinda hard on him. She has rode him for about 6 months and spoiled him (rotten). Recently when she rides if he gets into a run he won't stop. He ignores the bit and her telling him. 
I have been told that it could be the bit... and also it could be that his teeth need floated.... someone said it could be too much protien or sugar in his diet... I even have been told that it is because he needs to be ridden harder because isn't used to being walked so much...
What should I do? 
I have signed her up for more riding lessons... so she can be safer if he keeps acting up. Fixing her is great but, I would like to fix them BOTH.


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## nrhareiner

it is not the bit. If you rule out any physical problems then it comes down to a training problem


I have found that horses who like to run off are horses who are use to taking the lead when riding. IE. They are being worked at the walk and then the HORSE not the rider decides to go to a trot and the ride just goes along with it. The next thing you know the horse is going the speed he wants to go and will not change or stop.


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## wild_spot

> okay, than I stand corrected... but answer this for me (cause im a little confused, because I was taught it did have levrage and work the poll) does it work the poll at all, and if so how much? And that it does have any or very slight leverage at all like an ordinary Kimberwick, or was I taught wrong on how the this bit actually works? :S


Nope :] It doesn't effect the Poll at all - Because as I said above, in order for the bit to pull down on the poll, it needs to have the reins attaching at a point lower than the mouthpiece itself. To really effect the poll it also needs a curb strap. A kimberwick without slots only has a very mild curb action - in fact hardly any, and it works very similar to a baucher. A kimberwick with slots , where you can fix your reins lower then the mouthpiece, is the much more effective leverage bit - Because you can only start rotating the mouthpiece when that happens.



> And the "d" ring with hooks, if it acts like a mild gag, than why is it still considered a snaffle - cause thats what I was told. Or is this another perfect example of people using bits, and not really knowing how they work or what they actually do in the horses mouth?


Not so much of people not knowing how they work - More like not knowing/bothering to use the correct terminology for the action of the bit. Most people think a snaffle is anything with a broken mouthpiece, when it fact a snaffle can have any mouthpiece you like. This bit can also be used as a perfectly normal snaffle if you don't use the hooks.



> and what would be the ratio for a plan snaffle is it 1:1? Than what about the "D" ring with hooks whats that ratio? and how do you actually determine this ratio?


Yep, plain snaffle is 1:1. I have no idea how they work out the other ratios, it's do with the length of the purchase, shanks, and wether there is a curb chain. Too math-sy for me! but the D ring with hooks would be 1:1 when the hooks aren't used, and slightly (Only slightly) more when they are being used.


----------



## buttons

*Thank -You*



nrhareiner said:


> it is not the bit. If you rule out any physical problems then it comes down to a training problem
> 
> 
> I have found that horses who like to run off are horses who are use to taking the lead when riding. IE. They are being worked at the walk and then the HORSE not the rider decides to go to a trot and the ride just goes along with it. The next thing you know the horse is going the speed he wants to go and will not change or stop.


So this is a girl that has spoiled her horse and needs to get him in check? I kinda thought that might be the case. His former owner never asked the horse he told him.... so now he is testing his new friend. More riding lessons will be her spring break plan.


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## SummerBreeze

*Suggestions for my new horse*

I bought my horse, Breeze, about eight months ago. The man I got him from was VERY rough with him! When I went to see Breeze the first time he was chained to a post, with a logging chain! Whenever the man would get near him he would panic, which I can understand. I think most people would have never even ridden him from the way he was acting. But, I believed in him and took a chance. From the moment he stepped onto my farm he has been a completely different horse. By far the best personality of any horse I have come in contact with. Sorry, I am making this way too long  

What type of bit would you all recommend? He was being ridden western, with spurs, curb bit, etc. Very aggressive! I have been riding him English with a simple snaffle. He does okay with this bit. When we are out trail riding, he gets very determined to go home, naturally. When I try to turn him away from the direction of home it becomes quite difficult. I have tried using leg aides to encourage him to turn in the direction we should be going. He can be sensitive to leg aides because he is used to being spurred! I literally can have his head turned almost back to be knee and he is still moving in the direction he wants to go in. This also becomes an issue when I try to work him in large/small circle. He bends very very hard to the outside of the circle. I think part of this is he is unbalanced. 

So, I think I have said a lot without saying a lot, haha. Thank you for your patience!


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## SummerBreeze

I love what you said!


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## BennysLace

Knowing that both my horse and I are considered green, thank God Benny is patient well patient with me anyway if it isn't feeding time I know I can be heavy on the hands so I tend to not use the bit when she has one in her mouth in turn she gets by with alot when wearing a bit. She also has never really excepted on she constantly fights one being in her mouth whether being ridden or not. I decided since I know I can be heavy in stressful or fearful moments I decided to go bitless she is awesome in a bitless. Of course that limits showing and I still have to work on my hands but I feel more secure that I am not damaging my horse or her mouth. It works for her and she doesn't fight it I'm sure it will not work for every horse but for mine it does and I'm not against bits at all but for me and my horse we will never use them.


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## Ray MacDonald

You can hurt a horse bitless, heavy hands are heavy hands...


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## Jessskater

My snaffle does not seem to bother my horse. As long as I have soft and light hands she is good. I only use a bit when I go on trails. A simple halter with clip-on reins is what I use in the arena.


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## QHa

How can you tell if you have the wrong or correct bit?


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## Ray MacDonald

There isn't a right or wrong bit. It is whatever your horse does well in and likes as well as what is legal for dressage/ hunter/WP etc.


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## FSHjumper

its been a very long day, so havent read the whole post or the responses yet, but I read the first half and agree. A lot of people do feel the need to get tougher bits instead of retraining. Now I dont think every horse can go in a snaffle, but I believe you should use the mildest bit you can, and instead of just putting more pressure in the mouth which tends to worsen the problems, one should simply spend more time with proper training and save themselves a lot of training and problems in the future! I use a combo bit on my mare, simply because she prefers the dispersed pressure, and I do believe this bit helps a LOT of horses, but it is not a severe bit by any means, just simply applies more poll and nose pressure instead of only bit pressure. Its a myler combo, mullen mouth, so very soft and easy. My mare isnt a fan of a lot of mouth pressure but loves this so for her its a lot less severe than even a simple snaffle! However, I do have a french link snaffle on her that she works fine in as well! When I got her though she came to me with a gag bit and it took months to get her to accept pressure and weve built from there. I think a lot of people would rather not take the time, they simply want a quick fix. Ill have to find a pic of her when I first got her and now....its a HUGE difference, and its due to her willingness to accept pressure in her mouth now. Its still a training issue, even after a year, but shes come a VERY long way and is well worth the effort. now if only trainers would teach the horse properly from the start mares like mine wouldnt have to go through the hard and long task of getting them to forget the past and move on which takes a lot longer!


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## FSHjumper

ok slightly embarrassed to show how my mare used to be lol, but here she is the first day I rode her. Very hollow and bracey









and now, much more relaxed and accepting (is a pic off my camera haha, Im not at home to upload it so I had to take a pic of it with my cell  )


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## Magaidh

I've only skimmed this thread, but just wanted to add my experience with bitless bridles.

We have a Canadian mare who is a very sweet, easygoing and respectful 10 year old. We have had her since she was 2, she was started at 4 in a full-cheek snaffle. She is perfectly behaved to be ridden in a halter and lead rope. We thought we'd try a bitless bridle with her out of curiosity.

Well, our mild-mannered and darling mare _freaked out._ After only a few minutes, she started shaking and tossing her head, and a few minutes later started bucking. O_O

Back to the full cheek snaffle, and she is happy once again. 

Bitless probably works for lots of people, but there will be horses like ours that cannot tolerate the way pressure works across the poll and around the nose and jaw. I can imagine it feels very restricting. 

Perhaps you can't do the physical damage with a bitless bridle that you could with a piece of metal in extremely poor hands, but any poor horseman can ruin a horse with any device.


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## Ray MacDonald

Great post Magaidh!


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## Gallop On

I ride my horse with a bitless bridle, And he can stop on a dime and turn really sharp with it. He used to be horrible with the bit but now, after ground work he is great  And I totally agree with all you said


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## PoppysMum

Thanks for a great post smrobs. I have just survived a horse doggedly determined that she was going home, with or without me!! Probably the most scary experience of my life, but I did stay on, for which I am eternally thankful as I feel sure that I wouldn't have bounced had I fallen off.

No, I haven't automatically thought "put a stronger bit on her" but instead am having the thought of "lets retrain the rider", after briefly entertaining the thought of lets wear the horse out in the home paddock before we venture out the gate!! However, I know ultimately that won't fix the problem, she will merely rise to the challenge and get fitter, and the problem will just get bigger etc etc. So re-training the rider it is. 

Well, that's my vent for the afternoon. I'm still alive, deep breath here (still shaking an hour later) and I will live to ride another day.


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## Ray MacDonald

Good that you haven't given up! It's pretty scary when your horse decides it is going somewhere and going there fast


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## ledge

The snaffle is the best and worst bit in the world, in the proper hands it teaches softness, improper pain and suffering.

Most of all the snaffle is the Training Bit, get your softness suppleness and ease of ask with the snaffle then you go to a curb or something with a port to minimize your movements. Thats why, pull out our NRHA rule book and see the allowed port size (3.5") with 6" shank, they get a lot with a little movement.

Personally I take mine back to a hackamore/bosal from time to time.... or heck even loop my lead into the halter 

GREAT POST


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## shelleyb

My mare came with a pelham in her mouth, she didnt need it as i can school her just fine in a french link snaffle... although it takes about 10minuted befor she will work in an outline but at least when she does accept the bit its not forced!

HOWEVER... when out hacking in a group she is soo strong that i do change her bit to her pelhham because it gives me more brakes... i think its kinder to give a slight pull in a harsher bit than yanking at her mouth with a snaffle... 

I do agree though that horses should no be trained in a harsh bit... but they are out there for a reason and my pelham has nearly saved my life on a few occasions lol xx


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## LoganandMe

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but this is a topic that interests me specifically. I ride bitless, but I am wondering what the research is to back up the thought system that bits are good? I'm just trying to educate myself more on them.


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## LoganandMe

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> I don't see it at all. I don't see your "knowledge" with bits either. I hate that there is "knowledgeable" people on the topic of bits because I wish they didn't exist, but as usually people don't want to change so they don't look at the reality of things. I mean this post to SMROBS and you.


You were fairly new when you posted this right? Maybe you should have waited until you had some sort of reputation before you started debating with smart horsemen and women. I ride bitless, but I think what they are trying to say is that you can ride bitless and they accept that and a healthy, *educated* debate would be fun, but you also have to accept that they are educated on bits and you need to accept their ways of riding horses too.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

LoganandMe said:


> You were fairly new when you posted this right? Maybe you should have waited until you had some sort of reputation before you started debating with smart horsemen and women. I ride bitless, but I think what they are trying to say is that you can ride bitless and they accept that and a healthy, *educated* debate would be fun, but you also have to accept that they are educated on bits and you need to accept their ways of riding horses too.


Hi everybody! LoganandMe, you are new to this forum and I am not so I don't think what you wrote was nice or fair. You also aren't a true bitless rider if you just accept that people ride with bits. No, they didn't accept that I ride bitless. I am educated, probably more educated than you.


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## LoganandMe

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> Hi everybody! LoganandMe, you are new to this forum and I am not so I don't think what you wrote was nice or fair. You also aren't a true bitless rider if you just accept that people ride with bits. No, they didn't accept that I ride bitless. I am educated, probably more educated than you.


Sorry you thought that I was being mean, but personally I feel like you were being mean to some of the smarter people on the forum. They accepted that you ride bit-less and you didn't accept that they ride with bits. I ride my horse bit-less, but I go to a camp where they use bits so I ride their horses in bits. That is their choice and I wouldn't attack them on that because they are knowledgeable people that have been riding longer than I have and I want to learn from them. I have read up on bits (I am still learning about them) and I ride bit-less, yes, but that doesn't mean that I will despise everybody who rides with bits and call them horse abusers.


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## Loveeemyhorseee

LoganandMe said:


> Sorry you thought that I was being mean, but personally I feel like you were being mean to some of the smarter people on the forum. They accepted that you ride bit-less and you didn't accept that they ride with bits. I ride my horse bit-less, but I go to a camp where they use bits so I ride their horses in bits. That is their choice and I wouldn't attack them on that because they are knowledgeable people that have been riding longer than I have and I want to learn from them. I have read up on bits (I am still learning about them) and I ride bit-less, yes, but that doesn't mean that I will despise everybody who rides with bits and call them horse abusers.


Why did I even bother responding to a new person? You are obviously severely uneducated and as far as I'm concerned if you rode with a bit at your little camp then you are not a true bit-less rider. So W.E LoganandMe.


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## LoganandMe

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> Why did I even bother responding to a new person? You are obviously severely uneducated and as far as I'm concerned if you rode with a bit at your little camp then you are not a true bit-less rider. So W.E LoganandMe.


Oh okay, right, so because I'm polite and respect other peoples opinions I'm not a " true bit-less rider."


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## smrobs

LoganandMe said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, but this is a topic that interests me specifically. I ride bitless, but I am wondering what the research is to back up the thought system that bits are good? I'm just trying to educate myself more on them.


Logan, welcome to the forum and you have no idea how much I appreciate you approaching this in a mature manner . My research on the matter of bits simply comes from a lifetime of riding horses and over a decade of training. I've handled lots of bits, though I just recently (within the last couple of years) began to really educate myself about pressure ratios and mouth conformation.

IMHO, bits are not good...nor are they bad, they are just a tool. It all depends on the hands on the other side of the reins. Some bits have more _potential_ to be painful or damaging, but so long as the rider knows how to properly use them, then that risk is minimized.

The way I look at it, a snaffle bit is no different from a sidepull. They both have simple cues and the lowest possible pressure ratio, they just put the pressure on different parts of the horse. Mechanical hackamores (even though most folks use them incorrectly) are comparable to a standard curb bit.

You might consider reading these threads about bits, they talk about milder and harsher options and the different types and their uses.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-snaffle-english-type-bits-36522/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/


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## nrhareiner

Loveeemyhorseee said:


> Why did I even bother responding to a new person? You are obviously severely uneducated and as far as I'm concerned if you rode with a bit at your little camp then you are not a true bit-less rider. So W.E LoganandMe.



Ok her comes my MOD hat and I really really hate waring it as it gives me a headache. 

Every person on this forum has their right to voice their opinion and participate in an EDUCATED DEBATE. That is what this is. There are some of us with well over a decade or more working with horses. Take the info or leave it that is up to you as a horse person. If you continue to call people un educated just b/c they do not have the same view as you do then your time here will be a hard one. Read learn and bring an educated debate of your side to the subject. Back it up with FACTS not just what you believe.

Ok now taking my Mod hat off.


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## LoganandMe

smrobs said:


> Logan, welcome to the forum and you have no idea how much I appreciate you approaching this in a mature manner . My research on the matter of bits simply comes from a lifetime of riding horses and over a decade of training. I've handled lots of bits, though I just recently (within the last couple of years) began to really educate myself about pressure ratios and mouth conformation.
> 
> IMHO, bits are not good...nor are they bad, they are just a tool. It all depends on the hands on the other side of the reins. Some bits have more _potential_ to be painful or damaging, but so long as the rider knows how to properly use them, then that risk is minimized.
> 
> The way I look at it, a snaffle bit is no different from a sidepull. They both have simple cues and the lowest possible pressure ratio, they just put the pressure on different parts of the horse. Mechanical hackamores (even though most folks use them incorrectly) are comparable to a standard curb bit.
> 
> You might consider reading these threads about bits, they talk about milder and harsher options and the different types and their uses.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-snaffle-english-type-bits-36522/
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/


Okay thanks I understand this a bit more now  For instance though I have a little pony and she was ridden with a bit, but now I ride her bit-less and I don't have any problems with her at all. We don't show or anything we just ride at home and at lessons. Do you think that in that case I would still benefit from using a bit?


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## smrobs

Anyone can benefit from using a bit and anyone can benefit from going bitless. If both of you are happy with your bitless, then I see no reason to change it.

One thing to think about though is if you ever need or decide to sell her, there are a lot of folks that will walk right on past a "bitless only" horse for sale. It's always nice to know that they _will_ ride well in a bit even if you choose to ride bitless, that way, you can say that they ride both bitted and bitless.


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## DejaVu

Amen!! I feel the same about every single word written there.

I ride and show both English eq and western performance. Since my horse is over five, due to show rules he has to be shown in a curb. He is in a six inch shank dogbone futurity bit for western, and a simple single joint or french link snaffle for english.

He is equally light and responsive in all of them, with the slightest twitch of my finger. Why? Because this horse is trained by leg and seat, not yank, pull, bigger bit. He can be ridden bridless and behave the same as he does with a bit. He's been *trained* properly and lightly, IMO.


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## Ray MacDonald

I wish everybody thought that way!


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## Fudgelove

I really like this post becaus I ride my QH in a full cheek snaffle but my trainer says he needs a *Kimberwicke* because we are working on his head set. I belive that any horse; Dressage, gamer, jumper ect. should be able to be ridden in a simple D-ring snaffle. Now I have some other things to back up my opinion, Thanks!


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## LovesMyDunnBoy

I am training my mare in a straight, unjointed snaffle  with an eggbutt. And I try to start off as soft as possible, I'm also using my seat and leg, which so actually seems to respond better to 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ryanrocks

*Horse doesn't respond to bit*

Hi,
First I'd like to thank you for sharing this very essential and valuable information. I'm fond of horse riding. I participated three times in horse racing. Last year in November I bought a horse. I tried to train it for racing but I found it was not properly responding to my bit. At last, I sold it out. I couldn't understand what the problem was. But your post is so helpful in this regard. Very thanks.
___________
Ryan H
Watches


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## Rachel1786

I obviously didn't read all 50 pages of replies but what a great post! I ride my TB in a loose ring oval mouth and at times she gets heavy and runs through the bit so my BO and friend who used to event(she rides her for me at times) want me to change her bit, my friend wants to me use a corkscrew(hell no!) and barn owner had me try her low port kimberwick. The kimberwick she hated, she just kept getting behind it, I'll never use it again. I am how ever considering changing from a loose ring oval mouth to an eggbutt, same mild mouth piece but I have heard some horses will be heavy and run through a loose ring so it's worth a try.


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## caseymyhorserocks

Ray MacDonald said:


> I didn't read your whole post (sorry) I have a headache (because I got bucked off today) and at the moment I would like to shove *barbed wire in my horses mouth*... I don't mean that but im cranky and sore ATM..


That just made me remember... I remember reading this article about *BARBED WIRE BITS!!* It was some article about cruel bits.. Actually I think it was horse forum.. But a couple years ago... It said they are mainly used on mules but anyways... Poor mules!!


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## Ray MacDonald

Yeah, mule bits are just nasty! So are cork screw bits


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## smrobs

Yeah, I honestly don't understand why such horribly cruel bits are named "mule bits", especially considering that mules are actually smarter than horses and if you have to use a "mule bit" on one, that just proves that you shouldn't have a mule because they are smarter than you are.

We've had mules all my life (mostly as driving teams) and never used anything harsher than a loose ring snaffle on any of them.

Maybe I was wrong though. I mean, this guy looks completely out of control.....right?


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## Ray MacDonald

Yeah! He looks CRAZYYY!!! joking lol


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## corporate pride

smrobs said:


> If not, have you considered _why_?
> 
> Recently, I have seen an influx of threads asking advice about "what bit to put my horse in because I don't have control of him/her?" As opposed to retyping my opinion several times, I just decided to have a bit of a 'rant' thread.
> 
> First off, if your horse simply refuses to listen to the bit, then the problem isn't with the bit. The problem lies with what training (or lack thereof) and handling the horse is getting. The fact is that 99% of the time that a horse is ignoring the bit, slinging his head, nosing out, or any other action that most people associate as a "bit problem", it isn't the bit at all. It is a terrible thing to see that so many people are not being taught how to properly cue a horse with the bit. They almost always have solid contact and in order to stop or turn, they just pull harder. Those people have hard hands. *HARD HANDS MAKE HARD HORSES.*
> 
> agree with that, but once the mouth is hard is stays hard until the horse is remouthed
> 
> If the horse isn't as responsive as you like in the bit that you have, then work on him _in the bit that you have._ It is better to go back to a simple snaffle for schooling or corrective work though because it is one of the mildest bits that you can find. If a horse is responsive in a simple snaffle, then you can ride him in anything; however, if you ride him in a twisted wire gag for him to be responsive, then you would have no control in anything less. All the time we see it: a horse gets hard in the snaffle so they move him up to a twisted snaffle, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a Tom Thumb bit (one of the most worthless bits ever made in my opinion), then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a solid mouth curb with longer shanks, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a gag bit or a combination bit like those you see with a hard rope noseband and gag bit. Before you know it, the horse is being ridden in a 1/8 inch double twisted wire gag bit. Then 'what a miracle' the horse ends up hard to that too and at this point, they say "Well he is a stupid horse" or "He's stubborn" or "He gets excited". They never for one instant consider that every problem that horse has is rider error and by that point, the poor horse is usually beyond the point of no return.
> 
> Not many people are concerned with learning how to be soft with their hands and those that aren't will always blame the horse or the bit for every problem they have. You teach softness by being soft. You maintain softness by being soft. There are certain times, especially when handling a green horse, that being hard for an instant is required but it takes someone who understands horses and knows softness to know how much 'hard' is required and when it will be beneficial to the horse. Many riders _should_ spend their lifetime riding with nothing more than a snaffle because they don't understand when, how, or why to use the bite that a curb bit has. Even fewer people have any business using a twisted wire bit for any reason. Those bits should be reserved for only the most experienced and talented horsemen to use on only the most outlaw horses and only for a few days to re-gain respect for the bit. They should never be used for everyday riding by your typical 'fun' rider, or even a competition rider.
> 
> Many horses that end up hard due to improper riding can be re-trained to be soft-ish, however, they will never be as soft as a horse that was taught from the beginning to be responsive to the slightest cues. If you are having trouble at the lope or gallop, then it isn't a sudden problem just because of the change of gait. The issues are there at the walk and trot, they are just more subtle. Any gaps in training at the slower gaits will reveal themselves at speed.
> 
> No horse that got the proper training or riding _needs_ to be moved up from a snaffle. We, as riders, _choose_ to move to a different bit because of our preferances or training goals. I choose to ride in a ported curb because I ride one handed on a loose rein and a ported curb is designed for that, a snaffle is not. However, I can still stick any of my horses in a snaffle bit and they respond the same way. If I rode all my horses on light contact and direct reined, would I still use the curb? Absolutely not because it isn't designed for that and it is too much bit for that type of riding. The more advanced bits are designed for finesse, not power.
> 
> *Anyone who says their horse needs to be in this special bit is just kidding themselves.* The horse needs that bit because his training and handling dictates that the rider _needs_ that bit to communicate because their hands only know how to scream. They cannot understand the sublety of a whisper and as a result, their horse has learned to tune out all but the loudest of screams.
> 
> funny enough, my horse does need a certain bit, he can't have anything with a single join, he HAS to have a french link.
> 
> *Are there horses out there that seem to be immune to the softness of the snaffle from day one?* Of course, but those are _very_ rare and that immunity is generally paired with an outlaw nature that is dangerous to handle anyway. If a horse can be trained to accept a rider, then they can be trained to be soft to a snaffle bit.
> 
> that's when the mouthing system isn't a good one. remouthing helps but only with a good system.
> 
> Some horses misbehave in the bit due to a physical issue, whether it is a tooth problem or a nerve problem in their mouth or some other reason that carrying a bit would be painful. Some riders simply choose to ride bitless. Does that make them less knowledgeable or have a lower worth as a horseman than someone who rides in a bit? No. However, the bitless options out there are no different than the bit options. There are very mild choices like a simple halter or sidepull, there are more advanced options like the bosal, and then there are ridiculous options like those chain nosed mechanical hackamores. The same rules apply to those as they do to bits; stick with the mildest choice unless you need more finesse as the training level progresses.
> 
> To make a long story short, a bigger bit is designed to create finesse later in training, they are not meant to simply give a rider more power. A power struggle with a horse will always end up with the horse ruined and the rider frustrated and hateful.
> 
> Results come from what you put _in_ their head,
> not what you put _on_ it.


i agree with most of what you write. the parts i commented on is what i believe.
the gap in the training or even the inadequate breaking in process. how example; Barney is a TB, he has raced, when he was being preped for racing he was taught to learn on the bit and run. he still does this now. doesn't matter the bit but that's what he was taught.
i am getting him remouthed with an awesome system very soon, and the trainer (and horseman) is teaching me how to do this because i want to learn. this will retrain him to be light, to have lateral flextion and the almighty and most important (in my mind) emergency break - the one rein stop. i will now have those all important brakes! i will be saferon him.

i totally see where your come from. people rely too much on the next bit and don't just fix the mouth and training.


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## smrobs

funny enough, my horse does need a certain bit, he can't have anything with a single join, he HAS to have a french link.

I guess I should have made myself clearer in that statement. I wasn't talking about a particular shape of a _good_ bit that they are most comfortable with, like your guy. I was talking about those people who spout "But he _loves_ that double twisted, long shanked, hackagag....and it's the only bit he has brakes in".


that's when the mouthing system isn't a good one. Remouthing helps but only with a good system.

Yes and no. Lots of the horses that end up hard went through poor training in the initial stages. However, you will occasionally find a horse that simply has no respect for any bit right from the start, no matter how much proper work you do with him, how soft or how hard you are, or how well timed your release is, he just isn't interested in learning how to give. BUT, like I said, that usually comes along with a general bad attitude that is difficult to train to do anything.


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## corporate pride

smrobs said:


> funny enough, my horse does need a certain bit, he can't have anything with a single join, he HAS to have a french link.
> 
> I guess I should have made myself clearer in that statement. I wasn't talking about a particular shape of a _good_ bit that they are most comfortable with, like your guy. I was talking about those people who spout "But he _loves_ that double twisted, long shanked, hackagag....and it's the only bit he has brakes in".
> 
> 
> that's when the mouthing system isn't a good one. Remouthing helps but only with a good system.
> 
> Yes and no. Lots of the horses that end up hard went through poor training in the initial stages. However, you will occasionally find a horse that simply has no respect for any bit right from the start, no matter how much proper work you do with him, how soft or how hard you are, or how well timed your release is, he just isn't interested in learning how to give. BUT, like I said, that usually comes along with a general bad attitude that is difficult to train to do anything.


there are soooo many different systems out there, it's really hard to swift through all the sh*t ones to find a good one, that's for sure. here in australia every race horse owner thnks he's a trainer. there are sooo many issues that arise from the racing industry here that it's no wonder people just go the bigger bit because it's the "easy route". some are just not educated. they see th bit as a quick fix and while it works it's all good. there are sooo many non-horsey parents buying their beginner tennager a TB straight off the track that is ful off feed, waaaaayyy too fit and had no training other then racing. the saying is green+ green= black and blue. then the parents don't understand that if you want a good horse you need to fork out the money to get that. but non-horsey parents don't understand that it takes alot of training to get a good horse. so the bit is the cheaper option.
i keep seeing this time after time. my truck mechanics daughter got a young TB but had a little retraining afterwards by someone that doesn't have the skill to do it right. they paid $1500 for this 8yo and he's just not right for her. i tried to talk her into leasing an educated horse to go have fun on and she almost did. she decided to keep the TB. i will be keeping an eye on her so that i can make sure that this horse isn't going to suffer from needing a bigger bit. maybe i'll let her ride ozzie when he's better to show her how much nicer an educated horse is.


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## rinkers08

Hello. I'm new to this whole forum thing, so bear with me.  I have a 7 year old TB and I've had him for about 3 years now. We started off riding with a simple loose ring snaffle then graduated to a full cheek copper mouth snaffle. He went well in it but started to get heavy so my trainer suggested we try a losse ring elevator. Now mind you, he has been trained well, and he was collecting and coming from behind well in the full cheek but he was getting so heavy and just pulling down. He wasn't resistant in any of the bits ever. So, he's been going well in the loose ring snaffle for almost a year now but I want to show him in the hunter ring and I believe that kind of bit is illegal to use. My trainer suggested a pelham or a boucher because she still wanted to have the slight amount of poll pressure. Well, I've tried both and I don't think he likes them. First I tried the pelham and I feel like he was very resistant so I went back to the loose ring elevator and he seemed 100% better, like he was before. So, I tried the boucher and he is so resistant to the contact with that. I've not sure if his mouth is too sensative? He seems like he doesn't want to come from behind and he tries to run into my hands or he gets heavy. I'm not sure if he could be off? My friend watched us the other day and she said he looks sound. When I long lone him he looks fine also, so I'm not sure what to do? Any advice? Go back to my original bit (loose ring elevator) or try a rubber mouth pelham? I want to transition him into something that I can show him in the hunter ring with. Any thoughts? Thanks!


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## rinkers08

I respect and understand what you are all saying in your earlier posts. I'm 28 and I've been riding for almost 20 years. I've talked to my trainer about this also and I guess I like to have opinions of others to see what others think. I love getting advise, especially if it will help my horse and I. I always think of my horse first and I know that training and riding your horse properly is most important.


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## EmilyRosie

Hi I will just keep this short because I know that this isn't a forum for this, but I just wanted to apologize in case any of you didn't see my post in the welcome forum. I gave my password to a friend because she wanted to read and post to learn about horses, I didn't check it for a while and then saw this. I have since changed my password. The views she wrote are not mine at ALL. Some things I talked to her about like the fire/water/wind magically ended up on here. So I'm so sorry. I love Jonathan Field and he rides with a bit and achieves incredible connections with his horses. So yes, once again really sorry and I promise my views are not the same as hers.


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## akittrell

Hello,
I am very new to all of this. We rescued a retired team penning horse that sat in the pasture for 2 years with little human contact. He loves attention and you can tell he was well trained at one time. We have tried 3 different bits at the advice of our feed store owner. 1. tom thumb, 2. wonder bit, and 3. hackamore. When he has the bit in he fights it and bites on it. He has alot of get up and go. Could someone please tell me what we should try that won't hurt him?


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## akittrell

Here is a picture of the horse I am talking about


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## bubba13

1. Get his teeth check and floated, if necessary.
2. Throw the Tom Thumb and mechanical hackamore out the window.
3. If possible, have a professional trainer evaluate the horse and see how much is a training problem, how much is rider error, and how much is a bit problem.
4. Experiment. Befriend someone with a massive bit collection and get to work trying things. Start with a rope halter. Perhaps a Little S hackamore. Maybe a snaffle of sorts, though I doubt it in your horse's case. If you absolutely cannot try before you buy, I'd pick up something like a dogbone Junior Cowhorse or a Billy Allen / Myler curb.
5. Put Mr. Pinto on a diet!


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## akittrell

thank you for your reply. He is on a diet. He is set up to go to the vet on friday. I would to meet with a trainer but where I live there isn't any. I wish I knew who trained him to start with but the horse was just left in the field and the owner finally surrender him so I do not have any history on him except that he was a team penning horse.


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## Ray MacDonald

I say try a snaffle.


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## jmdnarri

Great Post! So many people don't understand that what you do to a horses' face and mouth does not dictate what their feet do. Bits don't train horses, people do. The bit can only relay what your hands do, different bits only change the way you "sound" to your horse, it does not teach them anything you don't know how to teach.

Bits are just like cell phones. Getting a "smart phone" doesn't make you any smarter. That phone will only send messages you tell it to. Bits are the same.


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## smrobs

Jmdnarri, that is an excellent way to put it .

BTW, welcome to the forum.


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## VetTech2011

I think this is a very well said post. 

What you have in the horses mouth is not going to control what the feet end up doing. 

My horse is a wonderful example, he is a unique horse with a mind of his own. If you were to try to control him by the bit you would be in for a wild ride  Turning his head to his butt, or cranking it into his chest will not "control" him. Putting a stronger bit in his mouth will not "control" him and make him go where you want him to - he will take you where he wants, at the speed he wants. The stronger you get with your hands, the stronger he becomes and the faster he will go. I see a lot of riders locally do these things to "control" their horses and it makes me cringe. I rode him in a french link snaffle in the beginning - now I can either do a halter or french link. 

The bad habbit he has, is what I love him for. I love the speed, the power - and now it's controlled speed and power - and always on my terms. I achieved this partnership and control without harsh hands or stronger bits. I just don't see the need for them. I have always been able to achieve my goals without those things.


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## onions

1..............................


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## capercowgirl

smrobs said:


> As opposed to retyping my opinion several times, I just decided to have a bit of a 'rant' thread.


I read your entire post, because I recently posted a thread about bits and I thought it was very interesting. I don't know why you would call it a "rant". I thought it was very interesting and I learned A LOT. If you ranted about something wouldn't you consider it annoying when people post it? I am glad that someone was able to put the information so well written on the fourm


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## furbabymum

Oh man. I hate to claim idiocy and ignorance but I have to. I've been riding my paso with a hackamore. I thought it was pretty nice actually. Nice soft padding on top. I had no idea. It's what the previous owners told me he needed. I rode him in a halter for a couple weeks until I bought the hackamore. I should have just stuck with the halter. I feel terrible.


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## smrobs

Furbabymum, depending on the type of hackamore, it likely isn't all that bad.

Just going from your description, you are likely riding in one similar to this...









That is actually one of the milder hackamore options out there and unless you are extremely harsh with your hands, the odds that you could hurt him in that is virtually non-existant. If he goes well in it and seems happy, then there is absolutely no reason to not use it.


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## furbabymum

That is exactly what it looks like. Thank you for the reassurance. 



smrobs said:


> Furbabymum, depending on the type of hackamore, it likely isn't all that bad.
> 
> Just going from your description, you are likely riding in one similar to this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is actually one of the milder hackamore options out there and unless you are extremely harsh with your hands, the odds that you could hurt him in that is virtually non-existant. If he goes well in it and seems happy, then there is absolutely no reason to not use it.


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## rbarlo32

What is the mildest bit for driving?


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## smrobs

We've always used a simple loose ring snaffle for our driven teams.


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## rbarlo32

Ok thank you


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## coltrule

I've often wondered bout using that hackimore.. I rode Lolly in a side pull when she was 2..then we 3..snaffle..but she HATED it..so we tried the curb grazing bit..and she loves it..


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## Iain

This is well said, I strongly believe that a horse should be well enough trained to ride without a bit. Horses should be able to be ridden with a halter if need be, then the bit can be introduced, but the bit is just a tool, and it should not be the source of good training in a horse. A piece of metal jammed in their mouth is not training, it's an intimidation tool, but can also be utilized to a riders advantage, as long as it is done so properly. I strongly agree, it is not the bit, but the training.


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## furbabymum

He seems fine in it. If I hadn't read that it was bad on here I never would have guessed. 


coltrule said:


> I've often wondered bout using that hackimore.. I rode Lolly in a side pull when she was 2..then we 3..snaffle..but she HATED it..so we tried the curb grazing bit..and she loves it..


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## Jjacksonjackson

Yes definitely Horses Are Having Feelings If We Generate Some Care Towards Horses !!


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## Legend

I read about 23 of the first pages on here, and wanted to add.

I am a bitless rider, through and through. I don't at all have a problem with bits, *if* they are used correctly. In the right hands, they can be good, in the wrong hands, they can be *bad*. Depends on the rider. I ride bitless cause even though my Paint was broke with a bit, and trained in a bit, when I switched to bitless his response was 100 times better. He _truly_ preferred the bitless over a bit.

Bits arent my issue, my issue is that I have talked to some people, and they say riding bitless is like doing delicate work with boxing gloves on, and this is the vibe I get from some of these posts. It _seems_ as if some of the people on here are saying that you cannot get your horse as accurate with bitless, than if you had a bit. That is _not_ true. I can guarantee Stacy could have got the same results if she had started her horses with a bitless bridle.

The bareback, bridless riding Stacy does, takes more precision that anything a horse could do with a bit.


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## bubba13

I'd ask Stacy Westfall that myself, before assuming. Have you seen her signature series of bits, the ones she designed and sells?


























Some of those are really kind of icky and harsh. I went to one of her demonstrations and she explicitly stated how important it is to get the horse riding well in a bit before switching to bridleless, and how sometimes it's necessary to get harsh with (intimidate) a horse's mouth for the sake of their training and your safety. She's not a bitless advocate at all, and I'm not sure I'd even consider her a particularly gentle rider.


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## Legend

bubba13 said:


> I'd ask Stacy Westfall that myself, before assuming. Have you seen her signature series of bits, the ones she designed and sells?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of those are really kind of icky and harsh. I went to one of her demonstrations and she explicitly stated how important it is to get the horse riding well in a bit before switching to bridleless, and how sometimes it's necessary to get harsh with (intimidate) a horse's mouth for the sake of their training and your safety. She's not a bitless advocate at all, and I'm not sure I'd even consider her a particularly gentle rider.


I am not arguing that she uses bits, and that those bits may be harsh, I am just saying that someone could get the same results without needing a bit. Yes, maybe she doesnt think so, but I am _positive_ it can happen.

Its a pity that not more bitless riding is allowed in shows...


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## bubba13

That may very well be so--and I believe it theoretically can be done--but I'd like to actually see someone do it. Though there's a HUGE difference between riding truly bridleless, riding with a neck rope, and riding in a halter / bitless bridle. Really no comparison.


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## Legend

bubba13 said:


> That may very well be so--and I believe it theoretically can be done--but I'd like to actually see someone do it. Though there's a HUGE difference between riding truly bridleless, riding with a neck rope, and riding in a halter / bitless bridle. Really no comparison.


I would like to see it also :lol: Yes, their is a huge difference between those. 

I can ride with a neck rope, and get perfect responses, but put me on bridless, and I have absolutely no control, as I havent worked off my leg and seat enough.


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## its lbs not miles

Sorry but I can't resist 

I dont think any of my horses (at least since 1980) respond to a bit. At least not very well I'd guess (but I don't use bits) :lol:

I'll agree that it's the training, not the bit, that makes the difference, but then I'd be silly not to agree since I don't use bits :lol:

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled discussion . As a non bit user my views really don't apply in this case.


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## its lbs not miles

Legend said:


> I read about 23 of the first pages on here, and wanted to add.
> 
> I am a bitless rider, through and through. I don't at all have a problem with bits, *if* they are used correctly. In the right hands, they can be good, in the wrong hands, they can be *bad*. Depends on the rider. I ride bitless cause even though my Paint was broke with a bit, and trained in a bit, when I switched to bitless his response was 100 times better. He _truly_ preferred the bitless over a bit.
> 
> Bits arent my issue, my issue is that I have talked to some people, and they say riding bitless is like doing delicate work with boxing gloves on, and this is the vibe I get from some of these posts. It _seems_ as if some of the people on here are saying that you cannot get your horse as accurate with bitless, than if you had a bit. That is _not_ true. I can guarantee Stacy could have got the same results if she had started her horses with a bitless bridle.
> 
> The bareback, bridless riding Stacy does, takes more precision that anything a horse could do with a bit.


 
I didn't read any of the posts before my first comment. Just couldn't resist making it :lol:
but read a couple on this last page.
Don't let be upset with people who swear by the bit. It's in the training and they depend on the bit to train the horse. With some horses it can take some time to train without the bit. Other probably learn faster without it, because thier not having to deal with something in their mouth.
Like people how swear horses should have shoes vs going unshod their whole life.
I worked cattle (in my younger days) with no bits. Never had shoe on any horse I've owned. Ridden 30+ miles a day along busy roads. Hunted off the back of my QH and have yet to see were I needed a bit. That same QH was the only horse to truly run away (running over .2 of a mile with no control) with me and she had a curbed bit in her mouth at the time. she didn't care about the bit or any pressure in her mouth. she was a run-away. I finally stopped her before she killed us both on the hwy by pulling her head all the way back to the right and she slid onto her side. The bit didn't allow that. Could do that with just a halter. 3 years later I gave the bits away and just rode with halters. Haven't trained with, or owned a bit since.
I don't fault people who use bits. It's thier horse and if it makes them feel safe, then so be it (I used to sleep with my teddy bear when I was little )
It's like when my vet (1970's) kept telling me that I was going to have problems with my first horse's feet, because I refuse to have her shod even after she reached 3 years. It took until she was 6 before he finally told my that she had the best feet he'd seen and wanted to know what I was doing. Just riding her almost every day...it was a working farm :lol:....on the farm and any place I needed to go. Even to town, which was over 30 miles round trip.

In point of fact the OP almost makes the point for you with the statement that you never need to move to a more severe bit if you train properly. Well, you can also say you never need to use a bit if you train correctly 

Happy trails, and enjoy riding regardless of how you do it.


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## nrhareiner

Legend said:


> I am not arguing that she uses bits, and that those bits may be harsh, I am just saying that someone could get the same results without needing a bit. Yes, maybe she doesnt think so, but I am _positive_ it can happen.
> 
> Its a pity that not more bitless riding is allowed in shows...


 
Sure that is why so many people are doing what she is doing.


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## trainerunlimited

I start all my colts in a snaffle and don't see any reason in keeping them in a snaffle forever, lol. My mare will neckrein, etc in the snaffle just fine. I do alternate between a couple smooth snaffles I have and a twisted wire when she gets a little dull in her mouth. I like to keep her on her toes!


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## smokeslastspot

I have a coming three yr old TWH gelding that will be lightly started this summer. I have ridden gaited and non gaited before and always use either a french link eggbutt snaffle or a french link full cheek bit. Some of the "walker crowd" keep telling me I shouldn't be doing this, that a gaited horse has to have a gaited bit. Why? I don't think so, am I wrong? 

I have always ridden the gaiteds like I ride the non gaiteds (same cues, they just have a different "second gear") and they always seemed to do fine, they held all their gaits well and moved along easily. These same folks keep telling me that my horse will not be able to hold his head correctly in a regular snaffle and therefore he will not gait properly. He gaits (as well as trots, which I am actually pleased with since we will be able to do hunter classes too) in the pasture and he seems to have no trouble picking up any gait no matter where his head is. Maybe the head set issue is only a concern for shows? Couldn't a headset and a balanced horse be achieved with a TWH with a regular snaffle? 

I do not ride big lick and in fact my walker has never even seen a shoe much less that padded crap. This also seems to astound many people, but I want my horse to move well because he has been trained to use himself properly not because I have gadgeted him into it. This thread has been very thought provoking, thank you to everyone for the advice.


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## RunnWalk

I agree competely. My horse technically isn't controlled by the bit itself. I use a standard walking horse bit (he's a tennessee walker) and he responds mostly to the curb strap. You only need to use slight pressure on the rein and he responds immediately to the slight squeeze of the curb.


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## CowgirlHannah

A family friend of ours STARTED her gelding out in a low port curb. She direct reins him and still does. He was only 3. He is 8 now and gets ridden in a walking horse bit. Ugh the women doesn't know what she was doing from the get go and that horses mouth is probably so screwed up. He has NO lateral flexion what so ever and has so many bad habits when riding. Sorry I'm ranting, but I though I would add in my 2 cents of how people DON'T know the difference between curbs and snaffles.


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## karebear444

I've tried a few different snaffle bits. My mare carries the D ring and tomb thumb quietly, but she doesn't like the o ring at all she chomps on it so much that I quit using it.


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## minstrel

My horse always went in a French-link snaffle until I started asking for more collection and engagement in our dressage and started doing a bit of jumping (where he is very strong), and I started riding him in an eggbutt hanging snaffle, which, whilst still being a snaffle, had a little more strength to it when required, and meant I could be more subtle with my hands in the dressage. What I found though, was that when anyone else rode him (I have him on working livery while I'm at uni) he found the hanging snaffle too much and they were too hard on his mouth with it. I've changed now to riding him in a double bridle myself, so that I have the extra finesse when required, but I've left his old french link on his other bridle for anyone else to ride him in. Seems to work well - he trusts me not to be gentle with the double, and schooling has come on in leaps and bound, whilst my lovely horse's mouth is still safe from everyone else!


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## Missy May

Nice post, thanks for taking the time.

I agree, its all training not the bit, but sometime conventional methods just won't get it. Until my current mare, which I got as a filly, I never had any problems with other horses not responding to a bit, but she just walked right through them. She did beautifully and what was asked at everything else, just not "whoa". I am not willing to put extreme pressure on a horse's mouth, or see-saw it to death so I would have to turn her to get her to stop. I went through 3 snaffles, and a waterford - and miles of "backing up". I worked and worked to get her to "get" that when I pick up the reins, all four feet need to come to a halt in two steps...not looking for a reining stop here! She seemed to respond to the french link the best, but not entirely. It was sooo frustrating. I decided there was some sort of "disconnect", so I trained her on the ground at liberty to stop cold when I said "halt". I applied this in the saddle simultaneousely w the reins and seat. It worked! I am still using the french link. I will never know what the trouble was.

But I will say this - I don't like the thought of putting any sort of metal in my horses mouth that says "made in china".


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## greenbryerfarms

*Mft???*

my mft wouldnt respond to a snaffle.. even at 2 when he was training... he is hard headed all on his own.. its the only horse i know like this but recently last year i put a hackmore and twisted snaffle in his mouth and recently this month i have taken him down to just the twisted snaffle so what your saying is im training him backwards? i havent ever trained a horse this way but it works for him and now in the arena i can get him to listen to cues with a reg snaffle... sooo.... im not trying to be a smart *** im actualy looking for a reason on why my horse when backwards with this bit thing?


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## greenbryerfarms

smokeslastspot said:


> I have a coming three yr old TWH gelding that will be lightly started this summer. I have ridden gaited and non gaited before and always use either a french link eggbutt snaffle or a french link full cheek bit. Some of the "walker crowd" keep telling me I shouldn't be doing this, that a gaited horse has to have a gaited bit. Why? I don't think so, am I wrong?
> 
> I have always ridden the gaiteds like I ride the non gaiteds (same cues, they just have a different "second gear") and they always seemed to do fine, they held all their gaits well and moved along easily. These same folks keep telling me that my horse will not be able to hold his head correctly in a regular snaffle and therefore he will not gait properly. He gaits (as well as trots, which I am actually pleased with since we will be able to do hunter classes too) in the pasture and he seems to have no trouble picking up any gait no matter where his head is. Maybe the head set issue is only a concern for shows? Couldn't a headset and a balanced horse be achieved with a TWH with a regular snaffle?
> 
> I do not ride big lick and in fact my walker has never even seen a shoe much less that padded crap. This also seems to astound many people, but I want my horse to move well because he has been trained to use himself properly not because I have gadgeted him into it. This thread has been very thought provoking, thank you to everyone for the advice.


 


i actualy rescued a twh last year im starting him out this year... i dont use walking bits or whatever... hes a horse and hes yours. its kindof like teaching him to rack thats your desicion im prbably going to run barrels with mine and a lot of walker people are probably going to get mad but hes my horse i can care less about gaits! he would be no use to me..


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## Ray MacDonald

All horses are different. I don't think your method was wrong or backwards. A lot of QH trainers start their colts bitless, in a bosal, before moving onto a bit.


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## oceanne

Key is understanding the different bits and how they work along with an understanding of your horse,your own hands and body.And the tasks you will be asking of your horse.


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## Farmergirl

*Is a Tom Thumb Bit A cruel bit?*

I just read that a Tom Thumb bit is cruel. I have been using that bit for my 19 yr old Morgan/Mustang since he was 5. That is the bit the previous ownwer had been using. I do not want to use anything that will hurt him. I only trail ride. I was told that this was a mild bit and am horrified that I have been using something considered harsh on such a wonderful horse. I had not ridden him for 4 or 5 years until this year because my other horse was too old to be ridden and I didn't want to upset the older horse. He passed away in the fall so I have just started to ride again. This is a major concern for me as he is a horse you can take out after not being ridden for years and he is perfect, calm and sane. I just got another horse, a 9 year old that hasn't been ridden much, she is green, but is also calm and quiet. I saw the bit she had been ridden in. I thought it was the same as the Tom Thumb, but now wonder if it was a different kind if snaffle. HELP! Does anyone have any advice on the type of bit I should be using? I do not consider myself a good rider. I try to have gentle, soft hands. I do not want to hurt my horses. Also, have wondered if a bitless briddle would be too hard to learn to use and to train my horses to. ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.


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## 94broncoxlt

I liked your sticky. Thanks for posting. My QH is in a dee with a slow twist now, because he needs a few months of it so we can communicate after him not being ridden for a year +. I have an extremely soft hand and seat until action is warranted. I think the most amazing thing ever is to be riding and jumping correctly in a halter, which took me years of practice and riding. The feel of a horse knowing your seat so well and using 90% seat/legs/balance and 10% hand cues is awsome. I use rubber eggbutts whenever possible. This is not a sensitive as I would desire when I want to give a subtle cue halfway over a jump to head to the left or right, and this cue is as small as squeezing my ring finger on a horse I have ridden long enough. Soft, experienced hands are the best method to control your horses mouth in my opinion, although there are exceptions. I think that many horses can be worked enough to need a dull, comfortable bit and have a good riding experience. Sharp bits shouldnt be a crutch, and only a short time tool! This is my two cents


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## FaydesMom

Farmergirl said:


> I just read that a Tom Thumb bit is cruel. I have been using that bit for my 19 yr old Morgan/Mustang since he was 5. That is the bit the previous ownwer had been using. I do not want to use anything that will hurt him. I only trail ride. I was told that this was a mild bit and am horrified that I have been using something considered harsh on such a wonderful horse. I had not ridden him for 4 or 5 years until this year because my other horse was too old to be ridden and I didn't want to upset the older horse. He passed away in the fall so I have just started to ride again. This is a major concern for me as he is a horse you can take out after not being ridden for years and he is perfect, calm and sane. I just got another horse, a 9 year old that hasn't been ridden much, she is green, but is also calm and quiet. I saw the bit she had been ridden in. I thought it was the same as the Tom Thumb, but now wonder if it was a different kind if snaffle. HELP! Does anyone have any advice on the type of bit I should be using? I do not consider myself a good rider. I try to have gentle, soft hands. I do not want to hurt my horses. Also, have wondered if a bitless briddle would be too hard to learn to use and to train my horses to. ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.


The bit is not harsh until the hands get harsh. If you have been using it for years and he is happily carrying it, just continue on and don't listen to naysayers.


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## smrobs

Farmergirl said:


> I just read that a Tom Thumb bit is cruel. I have been using that bit for my 19 yr old Morgan/Mustang since he was 5. That is the bit the previous ownwer had been using. I do not want to use anything that will hurt him. I only trail ride. I was told that this was a mild bit and am horrified that I have been using something considered harsh on such a wonderful horse. I had not ridden him for 4 or 5 years until this year because my other horse was too old to be ridden and I didn't want to upset the older horse. He passed away in the fall so I have just started to ride again. This is a major concern for me as he is a horse you can take out after not being ridden for years and he is perfect, calm and sane. I just got another horse, a 9 year old that hasn't been ridden much, she is green, but is also calm and quiet. I saw the bit she had been ridden in. I thought it was the same as the Tom Thumb, but now wonder if it was a different kind if snaffle. HELP! Does anyone have any advice on the type of bit I should be using? I do not consider myself a good rider. I try to have gentle, soft hands. I do not want to hurt my horses. Also, have wondered if a bitless briddle would be too hard to learn to use and to train my horses to. ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.


It's not that the TT bit is cruel in itself, only harsh hands can make it that way, but it is just a very poorly designed bit and is often mislabeled as either a "snaffle" or a "starter bit" by the people selling it.

Truthfully, if you are getting along well with the TT and are having zero problems at all....and your horses seem happy....then I see no real reason to change it.

HOWEVER, I am a big advocate of playing around and using all different types of bits. If you only ever just stick with one bit just because that's all you've ever used, then you may miss out on one that you (or your horse) would like a heck of a lot more.

So long as you're getting along okay with it, then you'll be fine to continue to use it, but if you are interested in trying out some other styles, here are some mild options that are similar or identical to what I use and found that my horses and I really like them.
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Reiner WIde Port Swivel Shank Bit
254330- Partrade Black Satin Bit
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit
796- Reinsman 7" Steel Reiner Billy Allen Mouth


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## greenbryerfarms

yeah since then i have done a lot of reading up on bits it seems people thing bits will fix the whole horse... its usually us that need the fixing or the horse that needs the training. =)


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## ktrolson

smrobs said:


> If not, have you considered _why_?
> 
> Recently, I have seen an influx of threads asking advice about "what bit to put my horse in because I don't have control of him/her?" As opposed to retyping my opinion several times, I just decided to have a bit of a 'rant' thread.
> 
> First off, if your horse simply refuses to listen to the bit, then the problem isn't with the bit. The problem lies with what training (or lack thereof) and handling the horse is getting. The fact is that 99% of the time that a horse is ignoring the bit, slinging his head, nosing out, or any other action that most people associate as a "bit problem", it isn't the bit at all. It is a terrible thing to see that so many people are not being taught how to properly cue a horse with the bit. They almost always have solid contact and in order to stop or turn, they just pull harder. Those people have hard hands. HARD HANDS MAKE HARD HORSES.
> 
> If the horse isn't as responsive as you like in the bit that you have, then work on him _in the bit that you have._ It is better to go back to a simple snaffle for schooling or corrective work though because it is one of the mildest bits that you can find. If a horse is responsive in a simple snaffle, then you can ride him in anything; however, if you ride him in a twisted wire gag for him to be responsive, then you would have no control in anything less. All the time we see it: a horse gets hard in the snaffle so they move him up to a twisted snaffle, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a Tom Thumb bit (one of the most worthless bits ever made in my opinion), then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a solid mouth curb with longer shanks, then he gets hard in that so they move him up to a gag bit or a combination bit like those you see with a hard rope noseband and gag bit. Before you know it, the horse is being ridden in a 1/8 inch double twisted wire gag bit. Then 'what a miracle' the horse ends up hard to that too and at this point, they say "Well he is a stupid horse" or "He's stubborn" or "He gets excited". They never for one instant consider that every problem that horse has is rider error and by that point, the poor horse is usually beyond the point of no return.
> 
> Not many people are concerned with learning how to be soft with their hands and those that aren't will always blame the horse or the bit for every problem they have. You teach softness by being soft. You maintain softness by being soft. There are certain times, especially when handling a green horse, that being hard for an instant is required but it takes someone who understands horses and knows softness to know how much 'hard' is required and when it will be beneficial to the horse. Many riders _should_ spend their lifetime riding with nothing more than a snaffle because they don't understand when, how, or why to use the bite that a curb bit has. Even fewer people have any business using a twisted wire bit for any reason. Those bits should be reserved for only the most experienced and talented horsemen to use on only the most outlaw horses and only for a few days to re-gain respect for the bit. They should never be used for everyday riding by your typical 'fun' rider, or even a competition rider.
> 
> Many horses that end up hard due to improper riding can be re-trained to be soft-ish, however, they will never be as soft as a horse that was taught from the beginning to be responsive to the slightest cues. If you are having trouble at the lope or gallop, then it isn't a sudden problem just because of the change of gait. The issues are there at the walk and trot, they are just more subtle. Any gaps in training at the slower gaits will reveal themselves at speed.
> 
> No horse that got the proper training or riding _needs_ to be moved up from a snaffle. We, as riders, _choose_ to move to a different bit because of our preferances or training goals. I choose to ride in a ported curb because I ride one handed on a loose rein and a ported curb is designed for that, a snaffle is not. However, I can still stick any of my horses in a snaffle bit and they respond the same way. If I rode all my horses on light contact and direct reined, would I still use the curb? Absolutely not because it isn't designed for that and it is too much bit for that type of riding. The more advanced bits are designed for finesse, not power.
> 
> Anyone who says their horse _needs _to be in this special bit is just kidding themselves. The horse needs that bit because his training and handling dictates that the rider _needs_ that bit to communicate because their hands only know how to scream. They cannot understand the sublety of a whisper and as a result, their horse has learned to tune out all but the loudest of screams.
> 
> Are there horses out there that seem to be immune to the softness of the snaffle from day one? Of course, but those are _very_ rare and that immunity is generally paired with an outlaw nature that is dangerous to handle anyway. If a horse can be trained to accept a rider, then they can be trained to be soft to a snaffle bit.
> 
> Some horses misbehave in the bit due to a physical issue, whether it is a tooth problem or a nerve problem in their mouth or some other reason that carrying a bit would be painful. Some riders simply choose to ride bitless. Does that make them less knowledgeable or have a lower worth as a horseman than someone who rides in a bit? No. However, the bitless options out there are no different than the bit options. There are very mild choices like a simple halter or sidepull, there are more advanced options like the bosal, and then there are ridiculous options like those chain nosed mechanical hackamores. The same rules apply to those as they do to bits; stick with the mildest choice unless you need more finesse as the training level progresses.
> 
> To make a long story short, a bigger bit is designed to create finesse later in training, they are not meant to simply give a rider more power. A power struggle with a horse will always end up with the horse ruined and the rider frustrated and hateful.
> 
> Results come from what you put _in_ their head,
> not what you put _on_ it.


AMEN! My thoughts exactly.


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## greenbryerfarms

ktrolson said:


> AMEN! My thoughts exactly.


Thank you! I keep repeating the same thing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sirgalahadkem

Thank you for posting this! My friends are the "old school" horsemen and think one of their horses "needs" the twisted wire gag bit with the rope nose. The girl leasing him HATES this bit and recently tried a plain, full-cheek snaffle on him and he worked PERFECTLY. The owners don't understand that this is too much bit for their poor horse who is very well trained. The girl shows him once in a while and he does neck-rein well so I told her just to get a very mild curb bit and practice riding him on a loose rein.
I don't show so I only ride my gelding in either his rope halter (If I just want to be lazy and putz around) or a copper full-cheek if I want to do a little training. He's very light on the bit and I intend to keep him this way. I have been thinking about showing him this summer and have been trying various curb bits but he doesn't seem to like any of them and I'm starting to think it's the curb chain itself that he doesn't like. (I've had his mouth checked out by a vet and a dentist already and it's not related) Any suggestions? He tends to rear if I try to put any pressure (even just a touch to ask him to stop or back up) on the curb type bits. (I've even tried hackmores both mechanical and not and he has done the same. The only related thing I can think of is the curb chain)


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## handlerchelsea

I hate that phrase. 'On the bit'. To get a correct picture of where you want your horse to be, it is better to use the term 'in frame'. In frame can be 'up' into a good elastic contact in a competition frame, long and low with the nose just on or infront of the vertical, or deep and round. People get so fixated about the horse being 'on the bit' that it creates a fixation with where the horses head is, not how the horse is working. It also encourages people to fiddle with the bit, to get the horse 'on the bit'.
The horses engine is his hindquarters. You don't put your foot on the accelerator of your car and keep the handbrake on. You have to get your horse to move *forwards*. Your horse needs to *want *to move forwards. And you need to *allow *your horse to move forwards. You should put your leg on and get a reaction. If a horse is moving forwards, it will find it very difficult to keep its head up. By moving forwards I don't mean chugging along like a Sunday stroll, I mean tracking up and swinging. You don't see racehorses going along like giraffe do you?
Once you have your horse moving forward, and responsive to your leg, you can then start to look to ask for flexion. You want your horse to  flex at the poll, softly, and be soft in its jaw. Your hands need to be up, thumbs on top, with a soft elastic elbow - particularly in the walk. In walk and canter your horses head will move a lot move compared to the trot. Your hands need to allow the horse to move forward in the pace freely - so your hands need to follow the horses head. This comes from a soft elbow. Imagine you have a pint of Pimms in each hand, and you don't want to spill it all over you, your horse, or your tack! Your elbows need to be tucked in to your sides as well - no chicken wings!
Start of asking your horse to *come soft, *it is easier on a circle to start with. Keeping your outside rein contact constant, gently ask with your inside rein. It is almost like you are asking your horse to flex with your inside rein, but not allowing the neck to bend with the outside rein. As soon as your horse softens, reward by releasing the pressure. Make sure you keep your leg on at all times - remember it is* leg to hand. *Keep your leg on once your horse has softened, and walk with your hands (as I said above). In walk try not to nag with your leg (as in nudge every stride or every other stride). Get it so that you put your leg on, and say 'go' and your horse goes. If you feel them starting to slow, then send them forwards again. A horse will very quickly ignore a nagging leg. If your horse drops too low, do not worry, they are just finding their feet so as to speak. If they drop behind the vertical (a common evasion technique) put a bit more leg on to send them up into the contact. At no point do you wiggle the bit, pull alternatively on each rein, or drop your hands down and out.

Sorry for the essay. This is just the basic starting point of getting your horse to learn to come down, gently, without nagging, and teaching them that it's a pleasant place to be.


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## Jierda

Farmergirl said:


> Also, have wondered if a bitless briddle would be too hard to learn to use and to train my horses to.


A bitless bridle is definitely not hard to use, or for your horse to learn to respond to. In fact, I swear by one. My horse gets wound up in a simple snaffle and keeps obsessively chewing it. Also we'd always get in arguments with very violent reactions from his side to the bit (bolting, his head shooting up and jumps to the side). Then I learned of groundwork, trust and respect.. We started with that and moved it up into riding bitless. We've moved from force and arguments to quiet communication, and with my bitless bridle (the Nurtural) we ride dressage, jumping, trail rides and even rides through the neighbourhood, over roads and biking paths, all on our own. This on a horse that only used to run through the ring and didn't even want to put one step out of the barn terrain without turning on his haunches and bolting back. Seeing as you're not a competitive rider, a bitless bridle would be perfect for you. You've had your horse for ages, you know him well enough to be able to train him to respond to anything, and once your horse trusts you, he doesn't need 'brakes' on a bridle, the brakes are your body movements and voice assuring him there's no need to run. There's plenty to try - a rope halter is possibly the easiest as you can just buy some rope and make one yourself. When training, always start something new in a closed ring in case your horse gets confused and doesn't know what you're asking. Quietly and gently repeat your commands until you get the desired effect and reward the horse. Training in a bitless bridle is nothing different from training in a bit, it's still training.


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## huntergrl

I definately agree that training and connecting with your horse in different ways doesn't have anything to do with a bit. If the bit has to be that harsh then they aren't taking the time to do the right training. Thankyou for the post as I just purchased a green horse and was wondering about a bit. I just have a regular snaffle and thought I'd have to purchase a different one.


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## Farmergirl

I tried riding my horse just with his halter, He did pretty good but once I did have a little trouble getting him to stop. He didn't try to run off but did keep walking when asked to stop. With a bitless bridle will I have a little more control over stopping? Otherwise he did great.


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## Jierda

Farmergirl said:


> I tried riding my horse just with his halter, He did pretty good but once I did have a little trouble getting him to stop. He didn't try to run off but did keep walking when asked to stop. With a bitless bridle will I have a little more control over stopping? Otherwise he did great.


It depends on which kind of bitless bridle, some versions have pretty much the same way of working as a halter (pressure on the nose). Also some training to respond well to pressure on the nose will work through that issue, I think. Something else to consider is how were you asking your horse to stop? Did you 'make yourself heavy' as I was taught in riding schools? Most people when doing that will rotate their pelvis back (moving your hips and lower back towards the horse's back) which will actually push the horse forward, while you want him to stop. Try to teach your horse by saying 'whoa' the same time you put pressure on the reins, lighten your seat instead (slightly leaning forward is okay, as with that action you will be 'blocking' your horse's movements) and most importantly, stop moving with him. You know the feeling of how your horse is carrying you first one side, then the other side, like a ship on a wave, and you're automatically following this motion. If you're aware of it, you can stop following it, which in a responsive horse will immediately get the message of 'stop' accross, without the need of a bridle.


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## Farmergirl

Thanks for all the info. I do just what you thought I might have, i sit back and slightly preess my weight down. I do usually say whoa when asking him to stop. I can't wait to try your suggestions. It makes sense with your explanation. Thanks!


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## Jierda

Farmergirl said:


> Thanks for all the info. I do just what you thought I might have, i sit back and slightly preess my weight down. I do usually say whoa when asking him to stop. I can't wait to try your suggestions. It makes sense with your explanation. Thanks!


You're welcome, hope it helps! Once I figured this out with my horse, it made a world of difference in slowing and stopping him (especially bridleless). The only not so nice thing, or maybe at the other hand it is, is that if I lose balance forward, he'll also stop. But hey, at least that means he won't drop me by accident.


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## Farmergirl

That sounds like a good thing to me!!


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## Selene Mia

*bitless*

Hi

Not only am I looking (in the far off distant future) to get back into riding, I do not agree with bits all the time, want to ride saddle and bareback, and wonder whether you have any tips for me?

We English seem a bit stuck in a conservative rut with all these things..

All tips, contacts etc much appreciates

I look forward to hearing from you

Kind regards

Selene


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## boxer

Wow how amazing to find this thread still running after nearly 2 years absence from this forum! I of course have not read the entire 56 pages of the thread lol, but thought you all might be interested to read a bit of research I came across on another forum a few days ago regarding the bitless vs bitted debate 


Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth by: 
Christa Lesté-Lasserre April 13 2012, 

Having a better understanding about the mechanics of riders' hands' interactions with the horse's head can improve your horse's performance, comfort, and well-being, noted one researcher at a recent equitation science conference. Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, Dipl. ACVSMR, MRCVS, Mary Anne McPhail Dressage Chair in Equine Sports Medicine at Michigan State University, explained that bits, nosebands, and headpieces all exert pressure on horses when we place pressure on the reins, which can vary considerably.

But new biomechanical findings in equitation science can help riders make more informed decisions about equipment use and also dispel certain myths about bridles, bits, and reins.

According to Clayton, soft tissues such as the tongue, for example, are better suited to handling pressure than hard tissues like the nose bone and the palate (the roof of the horse's mouth). "The horse's tongue can be very sensitive but it can also withstand a lot of different kinds of pressure," she said during her plenary lecture at the 2011 International Society for Equitation Science Conference, held Oct. 26-29 in Hooge Mierde, The Netherlands.

"From my point of view, I would be a lot more concerned about pressure directly on the hard tissues (and) the bones, rather than the soft tissues which have a lot more ability to absorb the forces," she said.
Radiograph of Bitted Horse

Using radiographs (X rays) and fluoroscopy (real-time radiography) of a horse's head while wearing a bridle and bit, Clayton evaluated the position of the bit in a horse's mouth with and without tension applied to the reins.

Using radiographs (X rays) and fluoroscopy (real-time radiography) of a horse's head while wearing a bridle and bit, Clayton evaluated the position of the bit in a horse's mouth with and without tension applied to the reins. When the bit was the appropriate size for the horse and adjusted correctly, she said, the tongue could slide up and down under the mouth piece.

"Relaxation of the tongue allowed the bit to sink into the tongue when tension was applied to the reins," Clayton said. "But if the center joint of a single-jointed bit (like a basic snaffle) poked forward into the hard palate, this appeared to be uncomfortable for the horse." This so-called "nutcracker action" could cause the horse to react by leaning into the bit or opening his mouth, Clayton continued.

"I think that some of the resistances that we see in different bits are actually the horse's way of trying to relieve pressure on the palate," she said. Essentially Clayton suggested that riders should try to avoid putting pressure on the hard tissues (like the palate and the jaw bones) and keep the pressure primarily on the tongue.

Early studies on one type of bitless bridle, on the other hand, showed that the pressure on the nose, under the chin, and on the poll is quite high, Clayton added. Although this research is still in its early stages, Clayton said she isn't convinced the bitless bridle is more humane.

"Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."

Even so, the bitless bridle might be a "useful alternative" for horses that are unable to wear a bit, such as those with a lacerated tongue, she said.


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## Skyseternalangel

boxer said:


> According to Clayton, soft tissues such as the tongue, for example, are better suited to handling pressure than hard tissues like the nose bone and the palate (the roof of the horse's mouth). "The horse's tongue can be very sensitive but it can also withstand a lot of different kinds of pressure,"
> 
> "Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."
> 
> Even so, the bitless bridle might be a "useful alternative" for horses that are unable to wear a bit, such as those with a lacerated tongue, she said.


Yeah I read that somewhere too, which makes sense.


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## Ambrose

I posted something kinda similar asking the difference with the snaffle and curb when it comes to reining. 
I have rode for many years mostly with family and friends since I didnt grow up around horses and have been reading about bits etc.

I do agree to have your horse into a snaffle as much as possible! I guess I didnt realize that snaffles are made for two handed reins over neck reining and the curb is made for neck reining?
May I ask why it is designed like that?

I just ordered a myler low port comfort snaffle with a center barrel. would that be good as if I were to use a reg curb?
((Myler Bits Stainless Steel HBT Shank Bit with a 5 Inch Sweet Iron Low Port Comfort Snaffle Mouth))

Thanks for all your help!


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## nrhareiner

Ambrose said:


> I posted something kinda similar asking the difference with the snaffle and curb when it comes to reining.
> I have rode for many years mostly with family and friends since I didnt grow up around horses and have been reading about bits etc.
> 
> I do agree to have your horse into a snaffle as much as possible! I guess I didnt realize that snaffles are made for two handed reins over neck reining and the curb is made for neck reining?
> May I ask why it is designed like that?
> 
> *Snaffle is used when 2 hands are needed. Be it a green horse or an even that requires a snaffle.*
> 
> I just ordered a myler low port comfort snaffle with a center barrel. would that be good as if I were to use a reg curb?
> ((Myler Bits Stainless Steel HBT Shank Bit with a 5 Inch Sweet Iron Low Port Comfort Snaffle Mouth))
> 
> Thanks for all your help!


 
That is not a snaffle. That is a curb bit. It has shanks. The difference between a snaffle and a curb is the shank. Not the mouth peice.


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## Ambrose

ok.... good to know however what about reining???


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## nrhareiner

Ambrose said:


> ok.... good to know however what about reining???


Reining as in the sport or an in Neck reining??


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## Livvyx

Haven't read all of the replies but my horse will respond to the bit, but I do prefer to use my seat with her  x


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## Lokahi

Thanks for this post! It is very needed 

I totally agree! A harder bit (or any "harder" gear, spurs etc..) are for finesse, not for "ease".. 
Thats not a lazy horse.. Its a lazy rider!

This harasses me so much.. people riding in spurs and hard bits on young horses (or untrained horses).. poor horse has no chance to become light and responsive.. 
Its training they need.. 
Start as light as possible, and when they respond.. STOP ASKING.. or asking for more right away... give them a chance !!
Also wanting to place a horse "in position", is not done by carrying your horse, but by warm up, and training into position.. 

Happy Training,


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## CapitalVendetta

I Agree!!! My friend owns a 12yr old TB that was a racehorse. First show he took off and pulled her shoulder out of the socket (We had him in a frenchlink for retraining puroses) Then she went to a snaffle he was fine on the flat but once jumping he was taking off. Then she put a kimberwick on he was good at first then again running through the bit. then she put a phelem on. Reaction was the same as the kimberwick. Then she had a slow twist snaffle and he did fine for about a year. Now shes putting a hackamore on him becuase she was told it was harsher than any bit... Im not sure what to tell her.


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## jmdnarri

I have seen this exact problem many many times, its very common in OTTB's. 

I would suggest your friend find a trainer who can help BOTH her and her horse to learn about *softening into the contact*. This is a fundamental step in good training that requires the horse to learn to reach for the end of the reins and maintain a soft relaxed back, neck and poll while accepting contact with the riders hands. Many people will try to use a harsh bit to get the horse to tuck its nose in, incorrectly thinking that is "softening"; what it really is, is the horse avoiding the communication of the riders hands due to discomfort.

Correctly achieving Soft Contact is not a quick fix, rather an important piece of a good training/riding foundation. Doing this requires a fairly well established *independent seat* and steady, sensitive hands. It could take anywhere from several weeks to a year or more before this step is well established, but with what you posted about her current issues, I'm willing to say its probably the only thing that will PERMANANTLY correct the problem.


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## CapitalVendetta

My old trainer(her current one) thinks that boomer just needs a regular snaffle. Ive helped work with boomer and he goes into a nice frame if you drop your hands a little and open them. But her trainer wants her hands up and closed. They recently stoped hinters and are now training for mini prix... I havent seen Boomer since January because I left so I could get a horse that could take me where I wanted to go. Last I herd he was alot better with his taking off and doing better on the bit. She wants to bring him over to my place once my leg heals so ill be able to see how he is really doing.


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## AnnaT

I feel like a good rider now :3 I ride with really soft hands, partly because I lack some feeling and strength in my hands and particularly my fingers.
I never have any trouble stopping or moving my horse, he is on a plain old eggbutt snaffle. I can usually do an entire ride without actually pulling the bit, I squeeze the reins with my fingers gentle squeeze then release around corners or a good squeeze with my fingers on the reins if he's going too fast. Or to tell him to steady up when he's a bit off balance, but I mean squeeze with my fingers a tiny bit, like really very little effort and he knows (love him!). He is very good with his vocal commands, when you want him to stop you say stop and he stops, you say walk and he walks, trot and he trots, you want him to canter you say canter and he canters and in reverse order. Sometimes saying jump is nessecary too lol! He rides on the bit with just a little encouragement with your third finger but he is still building up the muscle and learning how to do this but he actually does it by himself most of the time.

I've seen tons of horses go on stronger and stronger bits, I personally like the bit there to guide the front end directionally and for emergency stops. Otherwise I barely ever use it. But he is the only horse I have ever ridden which I can do this on.
So I'm in no way saying bits are bad or anyone that needs to use the bit is bad or anything. I've ridden flippin, hundreds of horses which are not as responsive to the bit.


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## jmdnarri

It sounds like you have a wonderfully responsive, relaxed and willing horse. Be grateful, some horses take to this light riding happily, some are so opinionated and resistant that getting such light responses is a constant uphill battle. You mentioned that you have troubles with your hands and fingers; you might enjoy pursuing riding totally bridle-less. 

I end up with so many clients struggling with the battle you seemed to have passed right by, its good to hear someone having such a great partnership so easily.

Kudos to you!!


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## LikeaTB

My trainer says that if your horse is having trouble in a leverage bit or something, bring him back down to a simple snaffle so he can re-understand the concept of the bit again.


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## EnglishMare

I agree with the original post and fully concur that anything 'more' than a snaffle, be it, single jointed, french link, Dr Bristol, or whatever, is for the more advanced rider to correct faults in the short term, for training purposes, anyway - and then only maybe. However, I would just like to add that whilst I do agree that the causes of pulling, snatching, grinding, evasion, etc., come from poor/bad/ignorant training, that in itself causes emotional and physical scars on the horse and these also have to be treated by sympathetic retraining... in a snaffle or even a bitless bridle. The first question any intelligent rider should ask him/herself is why is my horse evading the bit? Only a fool thinks he's an expert, and no question is ever a stupid question when asked to the right person.


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## TeamSAXON

akittrell said:


> Hello,
> I am very new to all of this. We rescued a retired team penning horse that sat in the pasture for 2 years with little human contact. He loves attention and you can tell he was well trained at one time. We have tried 3 different bits at the advice of our feed store owner. 1. tom thumb, 2. wonder bit, and 3. hackamore. When he has the bit in he fights it and bites on it. He has alot of get up and go. Could someone please tell me what we should try that won't hurt him?


You could try a softer bit. A lozenge snaffle, or happy mouth. Alternatively you could try just riding in a halter at the walk and see if he responds. If he fights everything you put in his mouth, why not try a bitless bridle? Not a hackamore, as they are a bit severe.. the kindrider bitless bridle is pretty soft, and crosses under the chin rather than the whole face like a Dr.Cook. Less is more


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## Horsecents1997

Snaffle or curb. The people who had my horse before used a twisted wire, and honestly it ruined his mouth. He's getting better, since I use a snaffle now. I'm pretty sure they yanked a lot since he likes to go too fast... I never yank, but I like having the nice soft bit!


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## Corin

new problems with responding to the bit: Anyone have any helpful suggestions??
I rescued my appendix 3 years ago and I have no history aside what I have found out about him myself: He is in his early twenties, has been taught to neck rein, knows a barrel pattern quite well, he's perfect on the trailer, and has enough energy for 5 horses. I am very much a laid back rider and only trail ride. My horse has always been strong and powerful but when I said "whoa" he would practically do an immediate/sliding stop even at a gallop with little aid. 
This past fall after a ride I realized the bit I had been using (basic western port bit) had a crack in it and had made a sore, I felt bad and thought I'd give his mouth a rest and use a hackamore... The first time I used it he was fine the whole ride but the last time we were cantering he randomly started breathing funny and almost seemed to panic (rasping breathing, mouth open, head low, and refused to stop cantering- he just completely tuned me out)- I was on an organized ride and I had MANY people look at the placement of the hackamore on him and they all said it was on correct, not cutting off his breathing or anything. 
I stopped using the hackamore and went back to a bit after the sore was gone but since then when I say whoa or cue him to stop at the canter he lowers his head and it is like i do not exist. This is not always the case and most of the time I can EVENTUALLY get him to stop but it's like a constant fight and there have been times I have had to reach up and grab his head to turn him tightly to get him to stop before he runs over people or takes me into the street (he doesn't have the best balance and I'm a large rider and I fear I'll flip him.) In the ring he is a perfect angel so no matter how many times I try and recondition him to whoa in the ring he already gets it. He has that thoroughbred mentality of GO GO GO, and will go for HOURS UPON HOURS before getting tired this is great when we do our long trail rides, but no when he's not stopping at the canter, or Im trying to get him to re-learn how to stop. 
My horse that use to make me happy is making me not want to ride anymore...I just don't know where to go from here I feel like it's just getting worse not better, any suggestions would be appreciated. has anyone ever had a problem like this after using a hackamore??


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## Ray MacDonald

Unfortunantly no. My best suggestion would be to get someone else to ride him just to see if it might be a rider problem. Second would to be to teach him the one-rein stop on the trail. Start at a walk until he completely gets it, then at trot then canter. Hopefully he gets better, good luck!


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## equitate

Admit to not having read the 51 pages. But the question is how many people start IN HAND with PROGRESSIVELY _educating the horse's mouth_ to specific responses BEFORE mounting?

Lifting the bit in the horse's mouth teaches it to chew/mobilize the jaw/swallow. And then the handler can allow the horse to chew forward/down/out. Then there is really small (like mm) of lateral flexion w/o asking for longitiudinal flexion as yet. Ideally this is done in a snaffle. Then the handler works the horse in hand, and/or drives it without mounting. 

Then by the time the horse is mounted, there is an ease in response. The horse can be ridden up and active, and it knows how to extend the neck (aka chew the reins from the hand, aka 'stretch').

We must keep in mind that snaffles are too keep the horse up/open/folding the hindleg joints, where curbs have a lowering closing influence (on the finished gran prix horses). The actions are progressively learned.

For western peeps the progression was much the same but from hackamore to snaffle to spade.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I have a mare that refused to bridle , pulled and chewed, swished her tail etc on a full cheek snaffle. She has other issues too, and those of you who have read my other posts have heard the stories. 

I decided to ride her in a rope halter and bareback pad until we worked through riding issues and put in extra time with ground work ala Clinton Anderson. Then, a month after I started in fall of 2010, I was in a monster motorcycle accident. I didn't see her for a month and started working with her while i was on a walker. 

Fast forward two and a half years. I saddle her, bridle her, and am refining my cues using a french link D ring snaffle she is doing really well but is a little heavy. She also likes to chew the bit and froths a little at the corners of her mouth. She does fair flexing at the poll, but not as much as i would lke. Honestly, we have worked a lot on long and low because she has a tight back and she needed to loosen up while she moved. 

I thought we might be ready to move to a shanked bit to get her flexing more at the poll. Plus I ride a lot on the trail and pony other horses, so I want a bit that allows me to communicate one handed and light. We tried a "Myler forward tilt ported barrel" or maybe it's a "Myler low port Mullen barrel"I saw another similar bit on the web called a cow pony bit. . I'm not sure which. I found it in my hand me down tack. It's like a snaffle with a barrel over the link in the middle so it barely breaks. It has medium shanks. We rode once with it yesterday and she was very light and responsive on a loose rein with one hand. She had two times where she lifted her head and tested the bit lightly. She didn't froth or chew much but she was relaxed. Her head was higher than normal but not too bad. 

What do you experts think? I know it's hard to say without video and I live in a situation with low tech. Should I move to a shanked bit? Which is the best to start with? Would she do better with a cricket since she likes to work things in her mouth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

Does she know how to neck rein?


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## xoxosalem

*Well Said.*

I completely understood that, very well said.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Ray MacDonald said:


> Does she know how to neck rein?


Yes, she does but not as well as I would like in the snaffle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

I would first get her really good at neck reining then move up to a curb bit. The curb you explained sounds fine to use.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Ray MacDonald said:


> I would first get her really good at neck reining then move up to a curb bit. The curb you explained sounds fine to use.


Thank you Ray!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Midnight Rider

Bit question - we recently bought a Tenn Walker. He is 9 and was a show horse and not very well treated outside the ring, not "abused" per se but not given a lot of room to run free outside of his show time in the ring - but is healthy and responding really well to lots of TLC. Hanldes like a dream outside of 2 things: 1) he HATES having the bit put in his mouth, to the point where he wont even open up for treats if he thinks a bit is anywhere near him - it takes 10 minutes to get a bit into his mouth so I am hoping there is a (kind) trick to getting a horse to open up for us and 2) he always on GO FAST mode...anything but tension to him means GO FASTER, I don't want to hard rein him back, he hates the bit enough already, but if there is no tension he takes off like a bullet no matter how tired he is. Is this bit related too? Thank you for helping.


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## mnhorse

What did you do to get thrown off?


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## shoreline

Love this post. Since day 1 of my horse's training, I have only used a loose ring. He loves it, I love it, and theres no problem


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## jk123

I have recently been given a standardbred gelding that I am training in a snaffle bit but likes to get his tongue over the bit I am using just a plain noseband at the moment but what would you recommend to do to stop him getting his tongue over the bit? 
Any suggestions would be great


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## HorseRidersHigh

Hi I'm new to this forum. I'm a veterinarian and since I do bit fitting sessions I find this post very interesting...

*Midnight Rider*: When a horse so clearly dislikes the bit you shouldn't try to get it into his mouth. It sounds like he's stressed out and that he combines the bit with being ridden and from what you describe it doesn't sound like he likes to be ridden. You can train him to react to stop and go from the ground. If you're interested I can explain you how to... When you've got control from the ground you use the same aids from the back but don't put the bit in his mouth before he's relaxed when ridden. He has to experience that being ridden can be a good experience before re-introducing the bit.

*jk123*: It's important that the noseband isn't tight. You should be able to have to fingers on top of each other on the nose under the noseband. My experience is that horses put their tongue over the bit if the bit is putting too much pressure on the tongue or if the bit is too mobile (typically double jointed snaffles). Make sure you measure the width of the mouth. The majority of horses don't like mobile bits...


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## Slave2Ponies

I'm new here too -- and I see there are a lot of folks with a lot more training experience than I have, but here is my 2 cents: I have a lot of different bits worth a lot of dollars in my horse's walk-in closet (tack shed). The favorite among the all the ponies has always been the cheap $5 rusty iron regular fat snaffles that I got at the feed store. I use those 90% of the time. But I like to finish my horse for trail riding in a low port curb bit. I haven't made the transition yet on my current horse, but there is no hurry.


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## a saddened cowgirl

Love this! A few years ago i bought a horse and was told if i didn't already have one that i better get a twisted wire sliding gag bit for this horse other wise she would never stop. When i got on to ride her i thought she had asthma cuz she would breath heavy, but i bought her anyway got her home and when id bring out my saddle and hack with a 4in wide paded nose band (least harsh) she would start to breath heavy. I then realized it was a panic attack. So it took me 2 weeks for her to know i wasn't going to hurt her when i rode her. And another 2 weeks to teach her to stop. I took her to our first show together and ran a perfect barrel pattern and all patterns and as i exited the ring the previous owners father yells out "that's how i taught that horse" and everyone yelled no its not are you even sure that's the same horse? I replied yes with just one month of new training! I could have ran that horse with a lead and halter where the could only run her with a twistef sliding gag and she would still run thru the bit! I was very proud!


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## superx2duck

*Any advice for me?*

I read your entire post...makes sense. I am not a beginner but, neither an expert. Here is my issue. I have 9 year old quarter horse mare (ex-race track mare) I bought her in March of this year. Since then I have rode her almost everyday. I really like her. BUT, she really shakes her head side to side when asking for a stop. She side passes, backs, lopes circles, all around does everything pretty good. She just has to "shake" before she'll stop. By the way, I have been riding here with a sweet six with a life saver mouthpiece. I have tried a snug tie down, no tie down. She'll lope off at a stand still but when you ask for a STOP...she'll shake bad side to side. Her teeth are ok and no other problems at all. Whatcha' think?


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## smrobs

Howdy and welcome to the forum . Is there any way that you can get a video of what she's doing? I'm having a bit of difficulty picturing what you're describing.


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## Ray MacDonald

Can you ride her in a plain snaffle?


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## Tigger115

Well, I need some serious help then. Just got a new horse, and while he is super easy to turn and move, when he gets going, even at a trot, canter, or gallop, he is nearly impossible to stop. I use a plain snaffle and I try not to be to hard with my hands, but sometimes it is necessary to stop him. I don't want to be hurting my horse, or turn him into a "hard" horse. What should I do?!


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## Ninamebo

Tigger115 said:


> Well, I need some serious help then. Just got a new horse, and while he is super easy to turn and move, when he gets going, even at a trot, canter, or gallop, he is nearly impossible to stop. I use a plain snaffle and I try not to be to hard with my hands, but sometimes it is necessary to stop him. I don't want to be hurting my horse, or turn him into a "hard" horse. What should I do?!


I think rather than pull back with both reins in this situation you should teach your horse the one rein stop. Yanking back on his mouth is just yelling in his language and then he won't listen to anything less. when he gets going too fast, circle him. Do the one rein stop to begin with and go back to basics. 

Ask for a walk then slowly cue the stop; shift your weight back in your seat or whatever you do with your body to 'woah' your horses before even putting tension in the reins, then lightly cue the reins, gradually more and more until the stop comes, then automatic release of pressure. 

You do this enough and with consistency he will become much more sensitive to your cues and not tune you out, but until he understands this cue do the one rein stop for your safety.


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## TrojanCowgirl

Didn't read the entire post, but most of it. It's 12 am and I've kinda got a headache...

But from what I have read, I have to say I completely agree... my entire horsey-life I was taught "Never use a tom thumb on ANY horse, it's a horrible bit, the most harsh bit out there! Over the years I've sort of come up with my own belief that a _bit is only as hash as the hands that use them_.

I usually ride my mare in a snaffle bit, but the other day we had trailered the horses out to an arena and I forgot my bridle... couldn't go back to get it so it was either a trip for nothing or I borrow a friend's headstall with a copper tom thumb... so I figured I would try out the tom thumb. 

Tried it on my horse, she did perfectly fine. I had 10x lighter hands than usual and she responded correctly to every single thing I asked her as if we were in a snaffle.

It's all about the hands that use the bit and how the horse is trained and used on a daily basis...


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## JillJessie

I agree with every word you said. However my horse throws her head with a bit because *******s before us were so hard on her mouth she has scars on the left side inside her mouth. So I just ride her in a halter


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## mangomelon

I've been trying to educate myself on different bits that are available and what they all do but I have been having a hard time. There are so many people who should know what they're talking about who have really wacky views on bits (the more I learn about them, the more I realize this) so how should I go about learning more about bits? How did you all learn? From other trainers or experience or ??? I don't just want to be able to describe what a ___ bit looks like but how it works, what it should be used for, what it should NOT be used for, etc.
Thanks


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## equitate

There are bits about the different kinds of bits (like The Ultimate Book of Horse Bits: What They Are, What They Do, and How They Work: Emily Esterson: 9781628737370: Amazon.com: Books ) , and there are books about how to (re) train the mouth/balance (like Amazon.com: Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage: A Search for a Classical Alternative eBook: Philippe Karl: Kindle Store ).

I have learn by training by masters for many years, and experimenting. Horses with problems must be restarted from the beginning. That means lungeing from a caveson, learning (with work in hand first) HOW to RESPOND to our ACTIONS. Learning how to be balanced/how to mobilize the jaw/how to teach the horse to seek fdo METHODICALLY. Almost always (in today's world) the snaffle is used for longitudinal flexion (which is not its intension). The snaffle and the curb have totally different uses. And too many things horses are happy with a bit when they get submission, rather than specific RESPONSES. That means the rider have CALCULATED tact and timing as well as TRAINING METHODOLOGY. This was true until the 80s, when submission and longitudinal flexion became the driving forces.

Although horses may toss there heads/etc because of previous poor training, it is up to the new rider to start with education and teach the horse how to properly respond. It is a methodical process from in hand (even w/o bits) to proper lateral flexion to gradual longitudinal flexion


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## smrobs

Mango, where much of my knowledge came from is a lifetime of riding horses in different bits, seeing what worked and what didn't work and learning how to handle a particular bit to get a good response from it. Some of it was taught to me by more experienced horsemen and some I learned on my own from horses' reactions to how the bit was handled, both in my own horses and what I saw in observation of others riding _their _own horses.

Another good place to start will be in the Tack and Equipment section here. There are a couple of posts that are stickied at the top of that section, one about snaffles and english bits and another that I did about western and curb bits. That will help to give you a start anyway.

Also, don't be afraid to ask on here. If you see a bit and you want to know more about it's function and proper use, post a thread with a picture and there will be plenty of people willing to explain how it works and what its proper usage is.


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## paul59539

The most common type of English bit is the Dee ring, which, from the side, looks like a "D". It is one of the easiest bits on a horse, meaning that it isn't as harsh as other types. A "happy mouth" is the easiest because it is made of rubber.


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## AbyArdan

[
Results come from what you put _in_ their head, 
not what you put _on_ it.[/QUOTE]
I have come to discover a one rein practice gives good training response


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## Saddlebag

When a teen, a dressage rider for Germany, told us if we didn't get the responses we wanted in a snaffle bit to go back to basics and plug the holes in the training. Years later I wound up owning what many would consider a hard mouthed horse. I discovered part of his issue was the thickness of the bit. I switched from an eggbutt to a loose ring, both having a single joint. He was more responsive in the loose ring. One day I decided to check his responses if I merely tickled the rein with my pinky. I was amazed at the quickness of his responses. He became light as a feather. I did the same with another horse and was soon getting the same responses. It's not just about asking but it's about the speed of the rider's release as well.


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## bsms

AlexisPaige said:


> ...This man can collect any horse in 10 minutes by using the double reins he invented. and if it doesn't work, He'll give you a full refund.


Then it is not real collection. Many horses simply are not fit enough in the right areas to collect properly after 10 minutes of work.


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## jaydee

AlexisPaige said:


> After reading through this forum, I can conclude that I MAY be the only one in here that knows about Al Ragusins - Double Reins. If you go to alragusin.com you can watch 10-12 hours of FREE training videos. This man can collect any horse in 10 minutes by using the double reins he invented. And if it doesn't work, He'll give you a full refund.


You cannot achieve real collection by using any sort of reins or bit to hold the horses head in - collection comes from creating impulsion from behind and riding a horse forwards into a light resisting hand
You can create a head set but that is not collection.


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## bsms

AlexisPaige said:


> ...If you watch the videos you can see for yourself that the horses are properly collected.


The screen capture below comes from 10 min & 47 seconds into this video:

One of the Eight Videos in the Training Your Own Horse DVD - YouTube

It is supposed to be good riding with a really good leg position. (See at 10 minutes, also).










Anyone who wants to take riding advice from this can do so. I suggest passing on it.


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## EquineObsessed

Collection has very little to do with headset. Collection starts with moving from the behind- impulsion- and moves forward. The horse will then carry its back, shoulders, neck, and finally the head properly. Using gadgets, like double reins, may create a headset but will NOT achieve collection.

Edit: I just realized jaydee and I said the same thing. Sorry about that!


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## equitate

(That vid looks like a prescription for a horse flipping over because of the effect on the bars.....not safe.)


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## ellen hays

Great article. 

I was noticing what you wrote about having soft hands. At one point during my involvement with horses, I thought I knew a lot. Now I really see how little I know. Unfortunately, my horse is the one that paid for my ignorance.

I can not change the past, but I can make every effort to improve the future!


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## smrobs

Ellen, that's all any of us can do. Lord knows I've made my share of mistakes and created some problems that didn't need to happen, but that's what helped me learn.


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## Abbysaydi

I completely agree with what you're saying. I just have a question though...my mare I currently in an eggbutt snaffle...she is broke but not the best...I'm riding her basically for just around the farm (trail) for right now because she doesn't respect the bit. I understand that half of it is probably my fault. She's stubborn...I'm stubborn,..the more I pull, the more she pulls, the more she goes above the bit, the more I pull, I know it's wrong but it's gotten worse...it's the only way I can almost get her to stop when she's in that kind of stubborn mood.


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## jaydee

It sounds like another of those cases where its not the bit that's at fault its the training behind it
I teach horses to understand 'whoa' at the lunging stage so when I get on I use that cue along with the gentlest touch on the reins so they learn to connect the one with the other and eventually I drop the verbal cue.
Once a horse has its head above the bit and you're pulling against the corners of the mouth instead of the bars you might as well give up the fight. 
A leverage bit or gag bit that acts on the poll might help lower or it might make it worse if the horse reacts by moving further away from the pressure - that sort of thing can end in a back flip if you don't give immediate release.
A straight or low ported bit lowers the head better.
A running martingale will prevent him getting his head to the point where he's above the bit and the contact is on the wrong part of his mouth
The more you pull the harder his mouth will get


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## Abbysaydi

If she won't lunge...which she won't...is it still possible to salvage her mouth by reteaching her "whoa" by just walking her...I understand what your saying and yes..I agree that most is all my fault


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## jaydee

Missing out the lunge stage is not a good idea and really there is no reason why she shouldn't learn how to do it - don't make excuses for her. Its a step in gaining respect and educating them that's very valuable
Yes you could teach her to whoa, walk on and trot on the lead rein. She can learn to give to pressure and appreciate the release when she does what she's told - you might find it easier to attach the lead rope to a connector that fastens onto both sides of the bit 
A mullen mouth bit might work better if she pulls against you - the snaffle will 'nutcracker' when you pull hard on it and a horse that doesn't know or refuses to give to pressure will try to avoid it by going above the bit to escape the contact - and the more you pull the more uncomfortable it gets the more she tries to get away from it


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## happybunny070

Thank you for writing this. 
I have a few questions, however. I have a young Gypsy Vanner. She is green broke. I have been riding her for months now, and when I first got on her, I have a very non aggressive bit- a rubber dee ring with one joint. She was un responsive to the bit. When I got on her the first time, she bolted. She seemed to be hard mouthed from the start. I have worked with a professional trainer, she is broke to drive singles and doubles, and I don't believe that rein aids and ques are an issue. Someone recommended a dee ring with a very mild twist. I dont think it hurts her- she has no lacerations, and is not anxious when the bit is shown, and accepts the bit nicely. However she still gains control and that is a concern. It takes a lot of pressure to stop her, and to get her to turn. She responds very well to leg and voice aids. Just turning and stopping is a slight issue. I know that "bitting up" is not the answer. But do you have any recommendations? The last thing I want is for her to be hurt, and not get the best she needs. If you have any tips I would appreciate it.
Thank you


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## jaydee

I can only suggest that she had no clue what you meant when you pulled on that bit - did you train her to any sort of voice command to work alongside the physical cue to whoa?
How did you ask her to halt when you lunged her?


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## happybunny070

Yes. She responds very well to voice aids. I accommodated this with the physical lunging. She knows "whoa" and such. Again I have been riding her for months, and even then, we still have issues with turning and stopping, I need almost no pressure on anything besides the turning and stopping. I broke my horse to ride. Another person broke her to drive- before I taught her to ride. Do you think that this may have something to do with the issue? I am just trying to figure it out; because the last thing I want to do is hurt her. I just want the best for her, and I am doing the best I can. 
Thank you for helping me. Any other tips are appreciated.


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## jaydee

Maybe her mouth lost its responsiveness when she was being driven - do you know what bit they used on her
Have you tried walking alongside her when she's bridled and applying pressure to her bit and saying whoa or long reining her and asking for whoa when you apply pressure?


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## smrobs

^^That's my thinking too, that she has never been _taught _to be "soft". Many of the driven horses I know are extremely hard mouthed from the constant bit pressure and have a mediocre turn/stop at best.

If it was me, I would take her back to the very beginning and work with her as if she had never had a bit on in her life. I'd put her in a regular smooth, loose ring snaffle (either a single jointed or french link, whatever she prefers) and work her from the ground with pressure and release for as long as it takes until she's responding the way you want her to respond. _Your _timing is what will teach her to be soft/hard. Release pressure even a moment too soon or too late and you haven't taught her to be soft.

Until you have some level of softness (though she'll never be as soft as a horse that was started properly from the beginning), you can never hope to have control.

Your trainer should be able to help you and if they can't....then you need to seek help from someone who can.


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## happybunny070

Thank you both so much, you answered my questions DD


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## Amram13

ive been looking up more info about bits because i was absolutely clueless!!!! i have actually learned more than i thought i would.


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## ZaneyZanne123

At a feed store where I worked has a huge cthedral bit, it was part of a buy out of another small tack store that went under. One day I was puting prices on new shipment when I heard a guy say, now this will s top my horse, I just casually got up and went around the corner to see what he was talking about and he had the cathedral curb in his hand. He was taking about how this woud stop his horse and talked like an ignorant bully to his buddy about using the bit on one of his two year olds with a stopping problem. I bit my tongue and casualy went about my bussiness. I thought the guy had bought the bit but to my releife he had not. I confiscated the bit. I bought the bit to keep as a demonstration of what not to use when training. I also dont beleive such a bit has a place in the mouth of any horse esp a youngster. So many ppl are blind ignorant and stubborn and dont want to learn a better way because they are to much in the mind set of I want it now and I dont want to have to work for it. Disaster in the making. I try to hope that I thwarted the misery the man's youngster may have gone through over the ignorance of his master.


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## TrojanCowgirl

ZaneyZanne123 said:


> At a feed store where I worked has a huge cthedral bit, it was part of a buy out of another small tack store that went under. One day I was puting prices on new shipment when I heard a guy say, now this will s top my horse, I just casually got up and went around the corner to see what he was talking about and he had the cathedral curb in his hand. He was taking about how this woud stop his horse and talked like an ignorant bully to his buddy about using the bit on one of his two year olds with a stopping problem. I bit my tongue and casualy went about my bussiness. I thought the guy had bought the bit but to my releife he had not. I confiscated the bit. I bought the bit to keep as a demonstration of what not to use when training. I also dont beleive such a bit has a place in the mouth of any horse esp a youngster. So many ppl are blind ignorant and stubborn and dont want to learn a better way because they are to much in the mind set of I want it now and I dont want to have to work for it. Disaster in the making. I try to hope that I thwarted the misery the man's youngster may have gone through over the ignorance of his master.


It's almost sad when you see ignorant trainers like that. Using a harsh bit from the get-go will never get you the soft result that you want.


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## smrobs

Zaney, no, that bit isn't appropriate for training, especially in the hands of the man you described, but they do have their place. Many horses are ridden in those bits, usually for disciplines like WP where invisible rein cues are desired and the horses are ridden on a lot of drape. Because of the "power" of the bit, the horse is able to feel the very slight cues that would go unnoticed in a milder bit.

Most bits, barring a few extreme examples like the screw bit









Or exceptionally small diameter twisted bits, especially when combined with weighted rings or any sort of shanks.










Most other bits do have their place either in training or on finished horses and are only as harsh as the hands on the reins.

The problem isn't the design of the bits, most of the time. The problem is the lack of knowledge/ability of the person using them.


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## ZaneyZanne123

smrobs said:


> Zaney, no, that bit isn't appropriate for training, especially in the hands of the man you described, but they do have their place. Many horses are ridden in those bits, usually for disciplines like WP where invisible rein cues are desired and the horses are ridden on a lot of drape. Because of the "power" of the bit, the horse is able to feel the very slight cues that would go unnoticed in a milder bit.
> 
> Most bits, barring a few extreme examples like the screw bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or exceptionally small diameter twisted bits, especially when combined with weighted rings or any sort of shanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most other bits do have their place either in training or on finished horses and *are only as harsh as the hands on the reins*.
> 
> The problem isn't the design of the bits, most of the time. *The problem is the lack of knowledge/ability of the person using them*.


I agree. 

I understand how the bit works and its mechanics and etc. (showed and trained WP for a few years) However: I still dont see the need for it if a horse is going so well and light in something less invasive (I mean the horse is an extremely sensitive animal and can feel the slightest of touch esp in his mouth.) He had to have been trained to go so well and light before hand, why put in something like that stated above.? If the horse needs to be light in such a bit then why cant the horse be taught to be that light in something less invasive?? 

I feel the same way about spades, cork screw bits, ***** bits, chain saw bits, bicycle chain bits, wire wrapped bits and high leverage shanked bits (shanks longer than 8 inches). I personaly dont use and never had to use anything longer than 8 inches worth of shank. I had an older (late 20s early 30s) mare who was retrained in a snaffle by using the reverse method of dropping back the severity of the bits used. BUT she performed (in a show setting) well/better in a long shanked bit (8 inches), probably due to past usage of such and being comfortable in it (it was a snaffle mouth). I dont uderstand why she liked it (didnt like the TT: very few actualy do and its not a bit I choose lightly, and she didnt like a solid mouth, didnt like a double broken mouth, didnt need rollers, and didnt like the shorter shanked ones as well either, she tollerated them but would often shake her head. She didnt shake her head with the full cheek snaffle and did pretty well in it. With the longer shanked bit she didnt fuss at all and worked well in it also....go figure. I think it had more to do with the weight of the bit than the shank length.) She was old so I thought....why fuss with her and used the longer shanked bit.. 

Just like when I am told by the rule makers in the TWH world and shows that I have to show in a curb type bit when my horse may go and gait just well in a regular snaffle. Why to I have to put in a curb to get the same response I already get from a less invasive bit like a snaffle type.?? (thats when I pull out the 2 inch shank bit and go from there.) I dont like Aluminum shanked bits either, simply because of the excessive rocking factor of the reins (drooping reins) esp when one uses heavy type reins. 

I dont like twisted wire anything bits (now I will say this.....I have time to time used a slow twisted snaffle in a horse with a very hard mouth that needed to be awakened a little but then reversed back to something less invasive.) They can be useful in trouble shooting and in retraining a harden horse but then I always return to the non twisted variety. Experienced ppl should only be the ones to use them. I feel that Clinton Anderson uses the twisted wire snaffles to excessivly when one can do the same thing and get the same responses with a non twisted variety. John Lyons does.

But your right on one hand though........Idiots with power tools (or any tool for that matter) = disaster. 

I collect old bits and have some of the above metion bits (the rough ones I dont like) but for display only. Some make me cringe just looking at them (esp the ones that are hand made.)


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## susan14

I have a 4 year old paint mare..she can be lead around with halter n lead rope with kids on he saddle she has great ground manners..but when i put a bit in her mouth she throws her head..a lot!!!!!. i can get some response with it but after 15 minutes of her having it on she rares..so i bought a noe band and a tie down strap..she won't respond to my cues to go forward.where should i start again???need some adviceplease


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## smrobs

Susan, my first stop would be with the dentist for your horse. She may have a tooth or mouth problem that is making a bit painful for her. After that, I strongly suggest you seek the help of a competent trainer. Because there are so many different things that could be causing this behavior, I'm hesitant to offer any "fix-its" online because trying to correct any training problem, especially one that results in rearing, can be very dangerous and I would hate for you to get hurt.

One thing though, _please_ don't use the tie-down on her in hopes of correcting the issue. If she starts to rear but has her head tied down like that, she can easily become overwhelmed and have a _really_ big freak-out...which can lead to her flipping over and seriously injuring whoever is riding/handling her, or it can seriously injure herself.


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## ladybugsgirl

great advice...


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## susan14

The ladies i bought her from had her teeth done and full vet check.before i picked her up she hadn't been rode i a year or so..but with everyday working with her she has came along way..she responds more to the bit she has a soft mouth..she reponds better to leg ques..i figured out she does NOT llike the arenas with a
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dempsydonna

I agree completely. Every horse should be able to be ridden bitless if it had good training, same for the rider.


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## JuliaLS15

Well said, this is great! Thanks for posting this! It's opened my eyes up to my horse, and why his mouth is so hard. I bought him from a girl that did that exact thing. She used a snaffle, and eventually made him wear a Martha Josa Million Dollar bit, (I think it's called) with a noseband, AND a tiedown. I'm soft with my hands, so it's been a challenge to teach him to be soft in his mouth, with the regular snaffle training bit. He's doing fantastic, and I can run him on Barrels in a snaffle!! His only issues are rearing, and stopping. His old owner didn't teach him to slow before each hard turn, and that's why she had such harsh bits on him, she made him slow down without him understanding the concept, which results in awful turns.. So I'm working on his turning, stopping and rollbacks! I'm so proud of him!


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## ellen hays

I just recently purchased a spotted saddle horse. He is 9 yrs old and seems to be a good horse. When I was looking at him to buy him, I had the owner ride him and asked him to do different things which he did. I noticed that the owner used a tom thumb with no chin strap. The horse did well and was very controllable. I liked the horse and bought him. I still like him and like him more each day I get to know him. I have given him some settling in time. He is coming along well. I am planning to ride him with in a few days. The bit thing really concerns me because many people are telling me that he has a good mouth because of how controllable he was with out a chin strap. Bottom line is *I do not want to ruin his mouth. *I have a D-ring snaffle and a DL Reiner with a Billy Allen mouthpiece. Please advise. Thanx


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## hyperkalemic4

My opinion is if you can get a horse light in a snaffle and working off your leg. he should be able to go into a short shank bit very easily. I always use a broken mouthpiece and a short shank, they have worked well for me. Also I have dropped from a snaffle several time to a TT bit and they have worked well for me.


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## Charmander17

I only want to know peoples opinion on this bit 

Reinsman Circle R Offset Dee, CR225 - Tractor Supply Co.

I'm still ground training and waiting for spring to begin riding, which I'll be the first person ever to be on her back. My mare is actually really gentle and I usually never run into problems with her or her fighting me. So is this bit going to be gentle enough or is there something softer? I want to go bitless and will, but with having to start her in riding and her being the first I've ever started, I guess I'm buying the bit more out of fear to me it seems, yet I'm still getting one, for whatever reasons. I just want whats going to be light and easy in her mouth, and this seemed to be the best that I've seen so far.


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## george the mule

Hi All!

My boy is a retired Dressage horse. He came to me in a Kimberwicke bit with a curb chain, and I was told to tighten the chain if he ran thru the bit. Say What???
And I rode him in it, with a loose curb the first season I had him.
The next year, I got a dr cooks bitless bridle off ebay. It took about 15 minutes in the round pen to introduce him to the bridle, and we've used it ever since.
Honestly, I can't really tell much difference in the way he responds, and the bitless has just got to be more comfortable.
ByeBye! Steve


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## birdogman

*Help on this situation*

7 yr old TWH/spotted saddle horse gelding. I have had him since he was a greenbroke 2yr old. Very willing, excellant all around trail horse with one exception. In the round pen, very sensitive and responsive. Likewise out on the trail . I can ride him in a snaffle, a sidepull, a broken bit with modest shanks , a hackamore. The only problem is that regardless of what is in his mouth or not, I feel like I have to check him back too often when his desire is to running walk or canter and my desire is to slow walk. I would like to be "off" his mouth and have him be as responsive to my subtle cues out on the trail as he is in an enclosure. I suspect their is some schooling technique I might use that has nothing to do with the bit- I'm open to any suggestions- THX!


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## ponyroll

@birdogman - Hello, it is always nice to see another fellow gaited owner out there! Your walker sounds wonderful and reminds me of my fox trotting gelding. Gaited horses enjoy to gait out on the trail; mine prefers to flatwalk the majority of the time.

With gaited horses gaits like the running walk are typically performed with a moderate to collected rein. So, if you check him back be sure you release the pressure because a constant consistent pressure will encourage a running walk or flatwalk (so always be sure to release all pressure once you get a trailwalk out of him). A technique I do with my gaited horse is teaching him to slow down and stop with my seat; this way I can get him in a trailwalk without the use of the reins. If you work constantly on transitioning between gaits and stopping out on the trail and in open fields your horse should trailwalk a little nicer for you. Use an increase of pressure method when transitioning down; first ask with seat, then add light rein pressure if your horse didn't respond to the seat, then increase until you get the desired speed, and at the point you get the desired speed release pressure.


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## Textan49

superx2duck said:


> I read your entire post...makes sense. I am not a beginner but, neither an expert. Here is my issue. I have 9 year old quarter horse mare (ex-race track mare) I bought her in March of this year. Since then I have rode her almost everyday. I really like her. BUT, she really shakes her head side to side when asking for a stop. She side passes, backs, lopes circles, all around does everything pretty good. She just has to "shake" before she'll stop. By the way, I have been riding here with a sweet six with a life saver mouthpiece. I have tried a snug tie down, no tie down. She'll lope off at a stand still but when you ask for a STOP...she'll shake bad side to side. Her teeth are ok and no other problems at all. Whatcha' think?


 If I am getting the correct picture without actually seeing it myself, I think it is definitely related to the bit. Possibly the one you are using or one that she was previously trained to stop with and no one bothered to correct the headshake and now it's a habit. I would both look for a bit that she is more comfortable with ( sometimes it's not the amount of leverage, it's the shape of the bit that the horse isn't comfortable with ), plus go back to some basics in teaching her to stop.


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## Audsta

Charmander17 said:


> I only want to know peoples opinion on this bit
> 
> Reinsman Circle R Offset Dee, CR225 - Tractor Supply Co.
> 
> I'm still ground training and waiting for spring to begin riding, which I'll be the first person ever to be on her back. My mare is actually really gentle and I usually never run into problems with her or her fighting me. So is this bit going to be gentle enough or is there something softer? I want to go bitless and will, but with having to start her in riding and her being the first I've ever started, I guess I'm buying the bit more out of fear to me it seems, yet I'm still getting one, for whatever reasons. I just want whats going to be light and easy in her mouth, and this seemed to be the best that I've seen so far.


I would start your horse out in a bosal, because they are already used to being lead around from nose and facial pressure (from a halter), so this would be easy for your horse to understand and also you wouldn't have to worry about the right kind of bit  before hopping on with a bosal (NOT A HACKAMORE) I'd first do more ground work with him so he learns to give to it and so that he can get used to it . good luck


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## Audsta

Textan49 said:


> If I am getting the correct picture without actually seeing it myself, I think it is definitely related to the bit. Possibly the one you are using or one that she was previously trained to stop with and no one bothered to correct the headshake and now it's a habit. I would both look for a bit that she is more comfortable with ( sometimes it's not the amount of leverage, it's the shape of the bit that the horse isn't comfortable with ), plus go back to some basics in teaching her to stop.


I'd try side reins on her so she can learn where her head is supposed to be. If her head is in the correct place, she will stop easier. i'd guess she's shaking her head because when she was a race horse, jockeys tend to balence themselves on the horse's mouth (pulling back on the reins) so your mare may be used to that still and is fighting back on the pulling back & shaking her head.


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## bsms

A single joint D-ring is fine for getting a horse used to a bit. Since it has been 5 months since Charmander17 asked about the single joint D-ring, her horse may already be doing fine in it or another bit. I had two horses started in a single joint full cheek and they both did fine. Like most things, you need to teach the horse the correct response and not assume they were born knowing it.

My new guy has most of his experience - and he's done a lot of trail riding in open country - in a sidepull. After trying a double joint snaffle and a single joint snaffle, his last 3 rides have been with a zero joint snaffle:








​ 
That doesn't mean in any way that the above bit is "the" bit to start a horse in. It just seems to be the one he currently understands best - and he has had time in a bit, just not sure of the conditions. Since the mouthpiece is identical to the Billy Allen curb I eventually want to move him to, it makes a nice starting point - but the horse got to 'tell' me which bit made the most sense to him now. I plan to expand his horizons so that most snaffles and curbs will eventually make sense to him.

As for where his head should be - I reckon it should be on the end of his neck. A horse shaking its head is hard to analyze from a few sentences because there could be a lot going on. As Textan49 mentioned, it could be the shape or thickness of the mouthpiece, it could be a habit, it could be annoyance that a bit is there, it could be the hands applying the bit...more information would be needed. But since the post that first raised the question was made in August 2013, it probably has sorted itself out by May of 2015. Hope so - the poster asked the same question on another thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/my-horse-shakes-her-head-when-246489/

and hasn't participated on the forum since 2 Aug 2013. Wherever she and her horse are, I hope it worked out well for them both! :wink:


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## Amram13

First of all, thank you Smrobs for posting this! I found it to me extremely informative because im pretty clueless when it comes to bits! So i was wondering if you guys could help me with something. I have an 8 year old OTTB that i have been riding for about 4-5 years now, but just purchased officially last August. He is a wonderful and loving horse. Ive been doing training and working with him and he's like a completely different horse now! He's nice and light most of the time and is also spur trained. I mostly do speed with him, but i also do english pleasure, hunter hack and equitation stuff. its been tricky for me finding an english bit that works really well for him. I used to use a kimberwick, but then i was told that i cant use it for jumping, so i stopped using it. then i purchased a regular dee ring snaffle for him and he seemed really hard in it. it took a lot of pulling and yanking to get him at a headset (which normally doesnt take any effort with his other bit) so i thought he needed a harsher bit. so i then purchased a twisted dee ring with hooks on it (you know, for the reins and stuff) and he seems okay, but i feel like he's still not as light as he could be. So... i guess idk if i should just keep the bit i have on him now, or look for one that he would maybe be better in? and if so, which kind?!? like i said before, im knda clueless about bits, and could really use the help. Thanks! Here is a picture of the twisted bit im using on him now.


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## Amram13

sorry! that is a pic of the one i used before i changed to the twisted one!  lol


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## Ghrelt

I have a 9 year old fjord gelding who's trained to pack, but not to ride. He has a really wide muzzle and I've read that fjords have low palettes. Is there a bit someone could recommend to start with? For now I'm teaching him rein cues from the ground with a side pull.


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## arabbarrelracer

My horse is HYPER and LOVES to run!!!!!
I run barrels on him and other speed events , I run him in an o ring snaffle bit....
a bit needs to compliment your training and riding but if a horse is trained right it should be able to ride in a snaffle.

I whole heartedly agree with your post! thanks for the info.


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## DanielDauphin

For those interested in bits, here is a comprehensive group of videos that should answer all general questions.
























_Posted via Mobile Device_


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