# Bad Day *rant* long



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

:evil: May be long.. repetive... etc.. just wanna get it all out. Bare with me  Reply how ever you want, negitive or positive. If you mis understood something ill be happy to clearify  Just lots of thoughts going at once. Read it all before replying lol.

Today I had one of the worst rides on Chance in a LONG time! Before today she was w/t/c and jumping with perfect transitions and slowing down right when I asked..... but I gave her a week or more off but was still doing ground work and getting her energy out, so theres no way she was just hyper. When I started riding her again I just did parelli patterns. Today when I wanted to do some real work, she decided to just take off full out bucking. This didnt scare me or anything just ask kept her going afterwards. I know its not the saddle, because I rode her in it the day before and she was fine.

I think its because I was finally telling her how it was gonna be done, before I was doing the parelli patterns on a long loose rein and letting her figure it out and just having fun, not really working her and she just took advantage of it all today. Bolting, bucking, pulling, trying to drag me over jumps, not stopping... everything and I kept calm and would ask her to stop or let out some rein and let her do what she wanted [as in the pace of each gait] and she would be fine, nice low head. If it was the saddle she would show pain either way. Correct?? I checked her back and she never flinched. 

I dont want to blame it on parelli so much because I love the ground work and always have fun with that, but everytime I try and go back to parelli undersaddle my horse goes back like 10 steps! Its RIDICULOUS! I only went back to it this time because about 6 people kept saying how I was riding her "the normal way" It was horrible and wrong, and I let it get to me, well IDC anymore I want the horse *I!* trained back! Not this dominate little B****. 

I dont need a certin type of program to keep my horse happy. Theres NO way im gonna sit here and listen to people who do parelli say its my fault, because I did nothing different but take a little more leadership of the situation. Shes a lot of horse in a small package and I cant let her get away with what she did today, parelli or not. 

NOTE: for those who are wanting to try Parelli, DO IT! Its the best form of ground work IMO, just be careful if you have young/dominate horses when it comes to the riding. But it has taught me a lot about reading horses and working WITH the horse not against, and thats what im gonna take away from it w/ all the horses I work with. Ground work part is staying with me.

I have a video to "prove" that she can w/t/c and jump calmly when ridden the "normal way" and you can clearly see theres no "forcing". -.- To parelli it seems like if its not exactly their way its wrong and forcing the horse. Sure theres some ear pinning in the video because it was at least an hour into teh ride and I wanted to get video so I pushed her a bit more and she was done in her head so she got a little fussy. But never once refused to do what I asked.

*sigh*


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I'm not for or against Parelli either way, so I can't advise you there. 

Maybe she just had a really bad day...I know one day I was working Blue, and he lays down easily, but not that day...he kept going partially down, and then popping back up...he did eventually go down, and the next day didn't give any problems...maybe just give her the benefit of the doubt today, given that she was so good yesterday.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well she wasnt all that great yesterday either, she was taking off then too. I just thought it was a bad day then, but when she was doing it worse today I knew she was just being dominate and the patterns just werent doing it for her. 

That last good ride we had was the first ride after her week off, and thats it. The rest shes just been slowly getting worse. Maybe its just a bad week.

I love parelli, just not the riding part, it would be nice with a calm older horse but with a young hotter breed its just not going right and I've done all the ground work plus more, she just seems to need a firmer leader undersaddle.


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Funny things happen when it's a little cold outside and horses are feeling good and have some time off. Sometimes they think they're on vacation. Suddenly we ask them for something they don't agree with such as walking past the scary tree stump or trotting on the bit. Instead of complying, the result is a bucking, rearing hissy fit. My normally sweet boy has been a monster this winter. 

I'm sure I'll take some crap for this, but I don't always see the connection between ground work and riding. Just the other day I had the aforementioned tree stump problem. Every time I tried to take my horse out to a field behind the property, he would get to the same place, freeze, spin around and try to run away. I spent half an hour one rein stopping and trying to get him past the tree stump using every tool in my kit. Once my toes froze, I knew I was running out of time to address the situation. I got off, walked him past it a few dozen times with no reaction whatsoever from him. I got back on and we were right back to square one. I'm not a nervous or reactive rider, and I did all I could to stay calm and not get angry with him. None of it worked. Hopefully the next time will be different. Chalk it up to a bad day and go to your next ride with a completely erased memory. That's my plan anyway!!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Maybe its all the snow. Ill try again next time and see what happens. I might go back and forth from loose rein to contact, and see how she does. Its not like she hasnt been ridden with contact before. 

See if Chance was to spook at something like that, I dont lead her to it, I send her to it or by it and let her figure it out. If I lead her she is only okay cause shes following me and im confident, if im not there to go near it she has to get confident in herself. Do you understand what I mean?? 

Thanks for replying  I had a ton of thoughts going at once so I decided to post them here lol


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Ha! I never thought of that, sending him past it. Great idea. See how great these forums are. When we're stuck thinking X, there's always somebody around to suggest Y. I'll try it next time we get stuck at the horse eating stump. Good luck on your next ride.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Most of the time when our horses are not doing what they should be doing it is not the fault of the horse or the training program or the saddle. It's the rider. You seem like you really know what your doing so I can't tell you what to do but look at yourself first. Many times when the horse doesn't get enough of an idea from the rider it will come up with an idea of his own and most of the time it's not what the rider wants.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Quite literally, I was trotting her along side teh wall and squeezed with my legs just a bit asking for a bit more spring in her trot and ZOOM we were off bucking. So .. idk. She also took off once, when I was just turning her around the corner at the walk and she just took off. To me I didnt feel like I was doing anything, at least nothing different then I normally do besides asked her for a bit more forward movement... she just went more forward then I wanted LOL!!

MyBoyPuck- Thanks! And Good luck with that scary stump! Haha Careful might be a horse eatting monster on it


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The problem with the cold weather, is that it gives the rider limited time to address some situations. My horse did a similar thing with a wood pile last year. Wouldn't go past it, no matter what. Unlike my last ride where it was 20 degrees out and my extremities started to freeze, it was a beautiful spring day. After exhausting every tool in my kit, I literally sat there for 40 minutes and took in the scenery while my horse tried trick after trick for getting away from the wood pile. After the 40 minutes, I guess he realized I was thicker in the head than him. He let out a big sigh, walked calmly past the wood pile and never did it again. Goofball. I'm sure I could have managed the tree stump thing better if I could have felt all parts of my body, but time was just against me. It's supposed to be a balmy 40 degrees next time I ride, so I'll be able to be as stubborn as him.


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

First of all it has nothing to do with the weather, saddle, being in heat, or any other excuse people can come up with. Second, it's not a problem with Parelli program either.

It sounds like you need to challenge your horse a little bit(the one thing Parelli doesn't stress enough). You mentioned going back and letting her be(loose rein) and she went back to calm. That's fine for you to let her know how laid back things can be, but you have to show her how tough they can be also. That way she really craves being respectful and disciplined and you can accomplish something. 

So do this, when your horse wants to buck, bolt, or whatever else you have got to let her know that things are going to become very bad for her when she does that. The way you do that is by really putting her to work very hard and when she decides to start acting right(while your still "challenging" her) then give her a good rest and leave her alone for a little bit. What this does is show her a very distinct difference in the consequence you are giving her for her actions, desired and undesired.


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Nothing to do with the weather!! I see you're in Alabama. Get any 20 degree days down there for extended periods of time? No offense, but feel free to come up and ride my horse in August when it's 90 degrees out and then again in January when it's 20. Then you can attest that weather is not a factor. Horses up north are feeling really up this year. As frustrating as it can be, if the OP can deal with her horse effectively in the cold, she will be a much better rider for the effort.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

its in the 20's and under here, and a crap load of snow and its gonna get below 0 at some point this winter, like always!! lol Weather DEFF does effect horses. Just like it effects us. And thank you MyBoyPuck, im hoping to come out of this bad streak even stronger then before.

Like I said, I dont want to blame the program so much, because Ive done the program for a year and only been getting good results till it comes to saddle work. When I leave that part out and almost do what you said, show her that things can get so much worse we DO seem to get some where. I might go that direction next if this happens again. I understand what your saying


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

I can promise you that no matter what the weather is, or whatever distraction you can think of, you can have you horse tuned into you for every ride on every day if they truly understand that you will hold them accountable for every action. And it is really as simple as making the things you want them to do easy on them physically and the things you don't want them to do very hard on the physically.

Horses are very simple and there are Lazy most of all. That is why making them work is thing that gets across to them the best. It's as simple as leave them alone when they are doing right and make them work when they are not.

You can't allow the distractions(weather, being in heat, other horses, objects, etc.) to steer you thought as far as what you think you can accomplish. That was my point about the weather.

By-the-way MYBOYPUCK I would be willing to ride in whatever condition to get the point across that if you go out thinking about those distractions you have already beat yourself.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Actually Parelli DOES stress with challenging left brained horses like Chance. They get bored easily and if they aren't engaged they can come up with games of their own. 

When my horse bucked with me (the only time he's ever done it) is when I got a little more firm when asking him to go faster and he bucked so I sent him forward FASTER until he wasn't thinking about it anymore. When he relaxed I relaxed. After that, he was VERY forward, more attentive, more light and sensitive, but not out of fear. And he's been that way ever since


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

Spirithorse said:


> Actually Parelli DOES stress with challenging left brained horses like Chance. They get bored easily and if they aren't engaged they can come up with games of their own.
> 
> When my horse bucked with me (the only time he's ever done it) is when I got a little more firm when asking him to go faster and he bucked so I sent him forward FASTER until he wasn't thinking about it anymore. When he relaxed I relaxed. After that, he was VERY forward, more attentive, more light and sensitive, but not out of fear. And he's been that way ever since


Exactly, just the result you should have from that. And I'm glad he does stress it deeper into his program. It is one of the things that has to happenfor a horse to learn how to take things.

The oppsite reaction(stopping) to a horse that bucks(or anything else undesired) would tell the horse that they did the right thing.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I couldnt do anything with her but run her into a wall, she braced her neck so hard that even with two hands I could barely turn her head to slow her down. And I couldnt make her go any faster LOL Well I could have it just wouldn't be safe with the others in there. I mean I understand what your saying I agree with it! But I dont know what to do, when what she does is brace her neck and bucks mutiple times and charges LOL! A few times I got her to trot fast and hard in a tight circle then when she lowered her head I let her stop. But that was ONCE lol I never once let her stopp after she bucked, once I get myself balenced again I would send her right back off in a trot and get her moving.

Its been such a long time since shes done this stuff. I hate that shes doing it again. BLEH! lol Oh well it will be fun to get the through it.

I mean weather shouldn't be an excuse to not work with them and what not but it is a reason why some will act up. Which I dont think this is why Chance is doing it, I think shes just taking it to a whole new level of testing me.


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

Man it sounds like a tough time you're having. But believe me I have been there. 

Um the only other thing I can gather is if she is able to brace her neck and not let you bring her around then she doesn't have a true respect for giving to you for lateral flexion. She may give to you standing still but this is a spot where I;m talking about challenging your horse. Meaning she needs to be willing to give to your hands at any gate and in any situation.

Also keep your confidence in your program, that is very important.


----------



## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> First of all it has nothing to do with the weather, saddle, being in heat, or any other excuse people can come up with.


Have you ever been in "heat"? Lol, its horrible. 
Saddle fit most certainly can cause behavior change... its seen it first hand on my mare. 
Horses are more frisky in winter, they are warmblooded...


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Chance will give lateral flexion with barely a lift of the rein when I asked. She will even do it with out me asking and be like "hey is this good?!" She use to do it at all 3 gaits, and still will if shes not determined to keep going. 

Shes gone backwards, and hard LOL Which Im not to worried about it, Ive been through worse with her, Im just kinda stuck cause shes gotten WAY smarter lol! She was still trying to canter and be good but at the same time when I tried saying hey pick up that trot she would be like okay ill go faster!! lol Shes only been trained by me [on ground and in saddle] since she was 4 [she turned 6 in september] so I know what she knows, but shes out smarting me STILL. lol She hasnt pulled this stuff on me since the first year with her so its kinda scary when she reverts back so quickly.

Heres the video of me riding her 2 months ago: 



 

So any more suggestions will be nice, Id like my Chancey back LOL!


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Ok, few things I noticed. 1) she was kinda ****y when going into the canter. I didn't see anything you were doing wrong, but maybe you were still being too 'loud' for her.....sometimes I shift in the seat is all that's needed...so how long had you been riding her at this point? 2) when you turn you have a tendency to lower your hand below your leg....sit up, eyes, belly button, leg, rein...and lift the rein to turn. That will help keep her weight back and keep you more secure. 3) stop with the circles already! lol. Yes circles are good but you know how Chance gets bored.

With your transitions- halt/back up, halt/walk/halt, walk/trot/walk, trot/canter/trot, etc. AND transitions within the same gait (how fast and slow can you walk? etc.) DO THEM MORE OFTEN. This will engage her mind.....walk five steps then stop and back up. Trot five steps then walk. Canter five steps then trot....and an advanced transition is canter/walk or canter/halt (those are fun!). 

For lateral flexion, I was thinking the exact same thing PaytonSidesHorsemanship was.....go back and do lateral flexion, both sides, at the halt.....then walk and bend to a stop (both sides), and do the same at trot and canter. Then see if you can do little half-bends toward the rail to slow her down.

Another thing I think you should do with her is the half-disengagement relaxation exercise that was in the Savvy Times a couple issues back. That works WONDERS with bracy horses!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Ive done a crap load of disengagement stuff, and shes all calm and everything else. When she would start to get all bracey I would try and stop her and do sideways, backing up, turning on teh forhand and haunches, and asking for her to do it slightly faster then normal. She does Lateral flexion fine. I can work on it some more but I dont think thats where the problem is UNTILL she starts freaking out. Cause when shes calm shes very easy to shut down with a on rein stop even half of one.

She has ALWAYS been crabby going into the canter, intill recently when she just kinda picks it up her self and I would follow and ask her my self making it seem like I asked. But I've tried just kissing to her, cantering in my seat, and just my leg. She seems to be more responsive when its just my leg. 

I deffinatly want to work more on transitions. I just gotta get a halt out of her again. Before those 2 recent riding days when I was just moseying aorund on her doing a little bit of follow the rail and figure 8 she was stopping and backing with NO reins. But she needs to learn to handle a little more leadership as well.


I know I have a huge bad habit with bringing my hand down cause she will get bracy against my hand, and its just become a bad habit.. But if you noticed I did use a suspension rein quite a few times as well  She use to be able to stop with just a bump of one rein... now.. nopeeee **grrr**  

Circles, She was getting a lot of work on circles because she needed to learn to balence her self even when I ask her to turn across the arena , before she would fall in and break gait, so we did a lot of work on those. She didnt seem to mind them to much. I also did a lot of circles to slow down her canter.


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

Spirithorse said:


> Ok, few things I noticed. 1) she was kinda ****y when going into the canter. I didn't see anything you were doing wrong, but maybe you were still being too 'loud' for her.....sometimes I shift in the seat is all that's needed...so how long had you been riding her at this point? 2) when you turn you have a tendency to lower your hand below your leg....sit up, eyes, belly button, leg, rein...and lift the rein to turn. That will help keep her weight back and keep you more secure. 3) stop with the circles already! lol. Yes circles are good but you know how Chance gets bored.
> 
> With your transitions- halt/back up, halt/walk/halt, walk/trot/walk, trot/canter/trot, etc. AND transitions within the same gait (how fast and slow can you walk? etc.) DO THEM MORE OFTEN. This will engage her mind.....walk five steps then stop and back up. Trot five steps then walk. Canter five steps then trot....and an advanced transition is canter/walk or canter/halt (those are fun!).
> 
> ...


Now thats some sound advice!


----------



## PaytonSidesHorsemanship (Jan 13, 2010)

When you're talking about a one rein stop/lateral flexion remember that it is most important to have it when your in a bad situation. It's good the you can have it when she is calm but if your not getting it when you need it most then it's doing you any good. Your horse has to COPMLETELY respect your hands and be willing to give for them to come back to you and soften in a very tense situation. 

When I'm working on getting respect for my hands or anything for that matter I always use the rule "soft as possible but firm as necessary". Remember the thing about adding pressure that matches their level of resistance is if you always have really good release timing they will always understand what the pressure meant and will not resent it.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well its hard to work on it when shes in a tense situation like lately, when it normally doesnt happen very often. Unless I want to go out and put her in a scary situation to work on it, even then shes usually pretty soft. Its when shes flighty that its harder for her to give to a on rein stop or lateral flexion, its possible just take more.

"soft as possible but firm as necessary" - I usually use that rule with everything i've ever done with my horses. I also go with the parelli 4 phases. 

Im going up there later today so when I come back ill tell you how she was.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Do we ever take into consideration that something may be physically hard for a horse? No offense, but I can spot a Parelli horse a mile away just by watching them move, and its not pretty. The reason that she was bitter towards that canter transition showed a defense mechanism, she was telling you "its hard, I'm not sure" She is so heavy on the forehand and weak in the hind that its actually hard for her to make that transition.

I know people love to argue this with me, but Parelli is not the best thing for developing a physically strong horse. Constant disengagement is very hard on the hind end. The hip joint is very limited in its axial rotation and it is not a good move to the extent that they do it without the proper flexion through the rest of the leg joints. And I can't just pin this on Parelli, many NH trainers and other trainers follow the same guidelines. 

So, your horse was doing well while you were riding "normally", but after going to Parelli and back to normal brought you issues, correct? What went on differently in your horses body during that time? I have paints and quarters, all "left brained" horses, there is plenty that I can keep them busy with without doing patterns. I can help them balance their weight better, that is a serious brain burner for horses to figure out how to correctly balance their weight. I ride for the horses body and believe me, they don't get bored. If you were working with more "engagement" and then back tracked on everything physically, then that is what your horse showed you when you started looking for that again.

I do think that the rider has a lot to do with it, but as a rider I don't see it as "oh, maybe I'm not asking right, or too strong" I think of it as "why is this hard for you and what can I do, as a rider, to make it easier? What can I do to teach you how to own this skill, make it so solid that eventually you (the horse) can teach people how to do this?".

Just remember, I have never met a horse that does things without reason. They react through fight and flight, their main vessel for this reaction is their body, compromise their body, compromise the defensive mechanism, compromise their safety, the result is in their reactions. You back tracked her body, start it off slowly again. To decipher why a horse is doing something while you are right their with it is actually very simple if you know how to work towards optimal health, not just optimal obedience. Once that horse knows that you are working to help it, obedience and willingness comes right along with it.

I'm sure I'll get attacked on several levels with this post, but thats fine. Good luck with Chance, don't put too much confidence in the methods, but actually look to the horse, she is letting you know exactly what is wrong and exactly how much is too much at any given time, she may just be asking you to slow down instead of speed up.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You should see my horse move. Uphill, free lofty gaits, no tension, no "sticky" spots, no brace. He looooves to stretch his topline, yet comes right up when I ask with no unconfidence. I'd say we are doing pretty well


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Honestly, I agree with almost everything you've said there. When I was riding her "normally" I was just working to getting her to w.t.c and actually listen, then I was starting with trot poles and canter poles again. I agree shes TOTALLY on her forehand and always has been, there was a few times I actually got her on her hind end but it would stop, and she would get all lazy and bored once I started just doing the patterns and focusing on parelli riding, again im not blaming the program completely but the undersaddle work has been the source of my problems. I think like you said, im just gonna listen to my horse and do what I think is right, and just leave the program to others. I love the ground work and im gonna just stick with that, the rest just has not worked for me.. 

Im gonna send a PM over your way


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

HAF, how much true lateral work do you do with her? By that I'm referring to shoulder-in, haunches-in and reinback? If you want to free up her front end, you need to build her hind end muscles or she mechanically will not be able to do transfer weight to her hind end. A good connected marching walk up and down gentle hills will also help build muscle. Dressage exercies comprise most of my nutty horse tool kit. When my horse is getting ready to bail out, the last thing I want is him standing dead straight! Lateral work is the best way to keep him where I want him and also the best chance at getting his attention back focused on me. 

By the way, my farrier came to put my horse's snow shoes on yesterday. He said he's been shoeing horses for 22 years and this year has been the absolute worst for nutty horses with minds of their own. People with very docile horses (like mine) are reporting jeckyl/hyde personalities. He thinks it because it's just been staying cold with no breaks of warm weather. Spring will be here soon, so just hand on for the ride until then!!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well when I was riding her normally, I was starting shoulders in, and she started to get it but then I stopped to work on patterns. So I've been doing lots of side flexing with her, and moving her front and back end around, and working on sideways. She can do some what of a slow trotting half pass as well if you as at the right time. Eventually we will get back into it, I just need to refresh both of our minds. I also need to get a speedier back up from her. We have no real hills, well we DO but there out on trails and in one of the smaller pastures, and with all the ice it wouldn't be very safe. So Ill be focusing on LOTS of ground poles/raised ground poles. If theres any other good exercises please share!  We have an indoor arena so anything that can be done in a arena right now would be good. 

Thats really interesting about what the ferrier said. Chance is deffinately one of those ones who have a big opinion of how things are gonna be done, always has been but I love that because its a challenge. Once you get her mind shes an angel.. lol Yeah it got cold to quick here, went from 50's down to 20's and under in less then a week a while ago, it was horrible.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Like I've said before, if you aren't consistent with your leadership and in a lot you do with her, you can't expect her to be consistent. If you flip flop, she will flip flop and the inconsistency will bother her.


----------



## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

Due to the fact that I was born, raised in, and still reside in CT aka a near exact replica of the artic tundra, I am in complete disagreement with the statement that weather has no effect on a horse's attitude. 20 degrees? That's fricken cold. No one likes to work in that, whether it's a person or a horse. We'll tolerate it, yes, but is it enjoyable??
Too many people do blame most of their issues on their horses, and that's wrong. I'm in the camp that believes the majority of peoples problems are based on the rider's error. However, I think it's also unfair to chalk it up to "oh, I must have done something wrong, not the horse" 100% of the time. Horses have bad days just like the rest of us. I know with my horse, (who's also named Chance!), his issue is and has always been wind. Last time I rode on a windy day he was a complete turd. Everytime I asked for a lope he'd take off at a full gallop across the arena. Was I asking him incorrectly? I don't think so, considering I've had him going on 11 years and have always used the same canter cue. And on nice, quiet, non windy days he's a total gentleman. I swear it's like the wind goes right up his tailpipe. My solution was pretty simple - I don't ride when it's really windy out. It's not worth it to me because I know we'll have an issue and I'll get frustrated and he'll get frustrated and then nothing gets accomplished blah blah blah . . . Anyway, good luck with your horse. I'd say blame it on the weather and try it again!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Okay so it deffinately WASNT just a bad day yesterday.... today I got a awesome ride, nice forward trot, nice canter transitions, it was all good to maybe the last few minutes of the ride. I swear, I did nothing but simply ride her along the wall at the nice forward trot that she was giving me almost the whole ride, and out of no where she seriously just took off bucked, reared.. kept running and finally I just turned her head around and made her move her butt around and fast, in objection she bucked really hard with me on her neck or almost, she swings around and runs off again!!! Im hanging on for dear life, she swurved which almost had me off but I refused to come off so I launched my self back onto her back using my other stirrup as much as I could and grabbed the side of the bridle and just forced her to stop, she almost fell because I did it so fast but I wasnt dealing with her crap. 

I could NOT believe it!! Once I get her to a complete stop I backed her up and ask her to go forward into the trot and kept her in a circle.. she was FINE we even got a nice canter... WTH is wrong with my mare! Honestly... And its wasnt a spook because even when she spooks she does nothing like that. PERFECT ride up intill that point, and ended perfectly.... -.-! So CONFUSED! Something in her head just snaps I swear! 

I know weather effects horses... but THIS much?!


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Inconsistency, boredom, lack of leadership, and I'm still betting the saddle is an issue for her based on the pictures I've seen. In this case weather isn't playing a part in it.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

As Kevin said, it is NEVER the horse's fault, and it seems to me that you always are the first to blame her. Horses are aware of what our energy is, how we feel, and what emotion we are giving out. She could have been reacting to something that you were giving off or you were pushing her too much. By the sounds of Chance she is very much Left Brain Introvert and it sounded like one of those times when she knew she was good and you didn't reward her so she took off.

I have/had one very dominant horse...he'd bite ya whenever he got the chance, and for riding he'd rear and buck and take off the minute I asked him to do anything, but as long as we moseyed around he was fine. That horse is now my fiance's mount...we no longer have a problem with him...ever! 



> Inconsistency, boredom, lack of leadership, and I'm still betting the saddle is an issue for her based on the pictures I've seen.


And I agree 100% with Spirithorse, even on the saddle issue, she is very hollow in that video and in all of the videos that are on your channel


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

She hollows a lot because she doesnt use her back the way she should. And that video  Im bareback. Her back is a weird shape anyways it naturall goes down then goes back up at te withers.. its not sway though because its flat. Its a work in progress. I can tell you talked to Jenny. I did rewards her, she got treats, and multiple rests when ever she gave a good effort. You were there so you cant say weather or not I rewarded her. 

I look at myself before I ever blame the horse, and this wasn't my fault. I could see a few times I set her off during that ride, but this specific time I did nothing. Will you stop assuming it was me... Unless I simply touched her with my heel, even that shouldn't set her off.

And she deffinately didn't seem bored seeing that she was offering the forward trot and canter and she was having fun doing what I was asking considering she kept trying to get to the little obsticles I set out.. Leadership isnt really an issue here. Sure theres times im not the strongest leader, but yesterday and particular I brought it up a lot to get some respect back. 

This is what Chances funky back looks like. So not all of it is hollowing she just has a weird back that her mother passed over. Its not really sway, because shes had it since she was born. Look at both pictures. Theres one where she was being slightly lazier with how she was holding herself.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/lolwtfmichele/003-2.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/lolwtfmichele/004-3.jpg


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

When you ride in that saddle she CAN'T lift her back, it's not that she won't, it's that she can't. The saddle is inhibiting her ability to do that, and because she is downhill and she isn't shimmed it's also trapping her shoulders....making her go on the forehand....and horses don't round when they are on the forehand.

There is a leadership issue here. You are frustrated, confused and maybe a tad angry (and blaming, defensive?) and that is NOT a good leader. This is not an attack on you, it's just my observation. 

Part of having Savvy is knowing when to stop doing what you're doing....so it's possible you kept going when you should have quit and that upset her. She is a LBI after all, and there is WAY more to the Horsenalities than you might realize.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Just to add, it looks like her back might be out of alignment near her lumbar.....might want to have her looked at.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I failed to recall that I called her sway back...infact I never did. Hollowing is 100% different than being sway backed. 

And no actually I didn't talk to her before I wrote this but I'm sure I'd agree with whatever she has to say.

Ok, well it's NEVER EVER the horse's fault. You are so sure it wasn't your fault so you blame the horse? How human of you. :-( How do you know you did nothing? Unless you were in a totally opposite room and she didn't even know you were there, you couldn't have done "nothing".

Oh, so taking off bucking and rearing is respect :lol::lol: must not have my horses respect then. From the description of your ride for both times it in no way proves to me that you were being a good leader, a leader that horses want...one that understands them and listens to their feedback, and does everything for the HORSE not themselves.

And I think you are a bit too insecure about her back :wink: I never once mentioned the word sway backed

*Sway back:* _n._ 
Excessive inward or downward curvature of the spine, especially in a horse

*Hollow:* _adj._

 Having a cavity, gap, or space within: _a hollow wall._
 Deeply indented or concave; sunken: _"His bearded face already has a set, hollow look"_ (Conor Cruise O'Brien).
No, her back isn't sway backed, she has big withers which will give it the appearance of being swayed, but big withers won't give an apprearance of being hollowed while riding....if there is an appearance, it's because it is hollow, and that's caused by saddle fit or the rider.




> There is a leadership issue here. You are frustrated, confused and maybe a tad angry (and blaming, defensive?) and that is NOT a good leader. This is not an attack on you, it's just my observation.
> 
> Part of having Savvy is knowing when to stop doing what you're doing....so it's possible you kept going when you should have quit and that upset her. She is a LBI after all, and there is WAY more to the Horsenalities than you might realize.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Just to add, it looks like her back might be out of alignment near her lumbar.....might want to have her looked at.


Curious, how can you tell from a picture? Would be very curious know how to be able to look at a pic and tell


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

In the second pic, if you look toward her lower back you will notice one section of her spine appears 'raised' or 'bumpy' or 'roached,' whatever you want to call it. Her spine is flat up until that point, then it appears raised, and that can indicate that she is out of alignment....and if she is, no wonder she is bucking and having issues.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

She was checked by the vet not to long ago and she is not out of alignment, its simply the way shes built, she has a roached back. 


I never said you said she was swayed, im just use to being told that shes sway so I decided to put it in there. 

The saddle is a medium wide, a wide is way to wide. I actually think that she neds to go down to a medium because the saddle slips forward like mad. Its the best fit ive gotten for a while. 

And when im just posting to her trot like any other time a long the wall... she shouldnt freak out like that.. I know I didnt do anything, and if I did it must be very microscopic.

Was I frusterated yes... angry no... Did I blame her yes, because I know it wasnt me who set her off. But the whole ride I was very relaxed and trusting of her. If I felt uneasy I would do a simple circle and re approach where I was going. 

anyways UPDATE!!!!


Chance gave me an AWESOME! ride today!!!  Even offered to go over the trot poles and listened to everything I asked and was very sensative to my cues which was AWESOME! It was also warmer today 40 degree weather.. so im wondering if it is the weather.. I guess ill find out the next time its in the 20's again.. which will be soon. oh AND she did her first 2 in a row canter poles! afterwards I gave her an apple and and groomed her and did some UDT  She just stood over me while I was playing around with my phone. Im telling you normal riding just works for this mare.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

> Did I blame her yes, because I know it wasnt me who set her off.


You are so sure of yourself that it wasn't you...that in itself says that it was you. Why is it such a hard thing for someone to admit that it was their fault, not the horses? Pride is the downfall of many men  
The Horse IS NEVER Wrong !!!
Read that...great article

Normal riding is a quick fix, like side-reins or a tie-down...solves the issue but doesn't fix it at the root of the problem and it will show up later

Frustration leads to anger


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Who said I was gonna use side reins..... or tie downs.... -.-!!! When was this said?? I mix natural and traditional and its what works with both little and Chance. Chance is a LBI inately with LBE and Little a complete LBE with some RBI in stressful situations.. It works for them, so to me thats what matters. After 3 days with dealing with Chance and her moments she still very cuddley and curious around me so obviously no harm done to the relationship. Same with little and when i was working him out of his bad behavior, he now trots to me in the pasture.. just like 1000 others have said on this forum parelli isn't the only way, or the only 'right' way.

There was no anger. Im sorry, but you werent there you have no idea what happened. Im done argueing whos fault it was. If I thought it was something I did, I would say it. Im not 'afraid' to admit that it was my fault, but I truely believe it was something I didnt do. Again you weren't there.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Who said I was gonna use side reins..... or tie downs.... -.-!!! When was this said??


Take a deep breath and calm down...I never said you said you were going to at all.




> I mix natural and traditional and its what works with both little and Chance. Chance is a LBI inately with LBE and Little a complete LBE with some RBI in stressful situations..


Yes Chance is inately LBI (I do not know who Little is :?) and might have a touch of LBE but not much from what I've seen of all the videos. She has a huge play drive but that is not considered LBE. Play Drive can come from any horsenality. 



> It works for them, so to me thats what matters.


Really? Cause in the videos you and Chance has something awesome going but evidently it didn't work for you. "Take the time it takes". So obviously what worked for them then didn't matter to you.




> There was no anger.


And did I ever say there was? You really like to put words in my mouth. I just said frustration leads to anger...never said you were upset in that. Try reading things slowly :wink:



> If I thought it was something I did, I would say it. Im not 'afraid' to admit that it was my fault,


Just some quotes to think over from GREAT horseman:
_“People have to learn that whatever the horse does is right…You’re the one who got into his life. He didn’t get into yours. It’s amazing what a horse will go through to satisfy a human being.” - Ray Hunt

__“It’s difficult for some people to overcome their inherent need to blame the horse for not doing something correctly” - Mark Rashid

__“The horse may not be doing the “right” thing for what the rider is asking of him: but as far as the horse is concerned, in his mind, the horse is doing the right thing from where he is” - Tom Dorrance__“If the horse is not right, it is because we’re not right” - Ray Hunt

__“A horse trainer must keep in mind the idea that the horse can do no wrong; that any action taken by the horse, especially the young assertive horse, was most likely influenced by him” - Monty Roberts
__“Once you understand how horses perceive things you’ll be less inclined to blame them for their reactions and behavior. You’ll also be able to anticipate what might happen because you’re walking in your horse’s shoes and there’ll be very little that takes you by surprise. Once you truly understand the horse’s nature you’ll actually find them quite predictable.” - Pat Parelli_

Just something to think over....all the great horseman of old....Bill Dorrance, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, etc say the same thing as I say....horses are never wrong


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I never said chance was wrong, more or less the one who caused her own actions. And sadly I can never get video of her when shes in a LBE mode. 

Im not upset in anyways I'm more or less just annoyed with being told that the way Im doing things is wrong or people assuming that I was mad or forcing her or not giving her breaks [not you] when they werent even around me, So yeah im slightly on the defensive side atm. 

The ground stuff works perfectly for them, its the saddle work. I live by the ground work. And this is what im talking about .. the assuming....So obviously what worked for them then didn't matter to you.
So obviously what worked for them then didn't matter to you.


Im listening to my horse rather then people who think they know my horse better then I do. Chance gets lazy, bored, b*****, disrespectful with the saddle work, weather or not I do p4's when needed or let her figure it out. Same with little he justs very disobediant. I've worked with a PP, I was even told to ride her with contact by 2 instructors. The one i was referred to by david, already had us doing Finesse patterns.


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> You are so sure of yourself that it wasn't you...that in itself says that it was you. Why is it such a hard thing for someone to admit that it was their fault, not the horses? Pride is the downfall of many men
> The Horse IS NEVER Wrong !!!
> Read that...great article
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but.... huh???

When did "normal riding" suddenly equate to a quick fix like using a tie down? I guess I'm going to have to tell all the dressage people I know and everyone else who rides "normally" (whatever that means) that they have been doing it wrong all these years. 

Right, have to dash off to the barn to screw up my horse by riding normally before tunes this afternoon!


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Im listening to my horse rather then people who think they know my horse better then I do. Chance gets lazy, bored, b*****, disrespectful with the saddle work, weather or not I do p4's when needed or let her figure it out. Same with little he justs very disobediant. I've worked with a PP, I was even told to ride her with contact by 2 instructors. The one i was referred to by david, already had us doing Finesse patterns.


Well that person that David referred you to was wrong. Finesse is level 4 and I can see in no way that you are at level 4 area...I'd say level 2 if anything or barely that. I'm assuming that the lady he referred you to was not an instructor (Parelli professional) in which case legally that person cannot give lessons. 
Just like when you're doing math, the teacher doesn't start you out at the back of the book, no you work from the beginning and go to the end. Neither should a "Parelli teacher" start a student off at finesse and skip Freestyle. Pat Parelli and many other good horseman like Bill Dorrance, etc stress the importance of freestyle. 

I never said I knew your horse better than you do, but I do know for a fact that the horse is never wrong, and in which case you simply micromanaging her to listen while riding will be a quick fix and holes will turn up later and might end up more dangerous than before.
By her acting up she's giving you feedback on how you are asking her to do something or did something that she thought you wanted her to do. Feedback is what you want, even if it's negative feedback from her. It lets you know what you are doing wrong that she doesn't like. Or she's reacting because she, as a prey animal, feels she has to do so.


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Sorry you're having such a rough time with your girl. I know how that feels! One of my mares and I just don't really get along that well. she's a great horse, and we love eachother, but I have come to terms with the fact that she's not for me. NOT saying sell your horse. Just telling you my experience with the difficult ones.

I'm not going to get into the Parelli stuff because A) I don't know jack about it and B) I don't know anyone who does. haha. 

Is there any way you could take a break from the Parelli that's not working for her, do some other methods, then come back later if you still feel it might work? I know you said you did a mix of Parelli and "regular" riding, right? Well, how about doing more of the "regular" stuff for a bit and less of Parelli. Maybe it'll give you and Chance a second to step back and look at what's wrong.

Good luck!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Okay I gotta add, Im level 3/4 on ground by self assessments, and level 2 riding. Dont assume.

Also if chance offers teh canter or tries to go over the trot poles I gladly accept that she gives me. JUST because im not riding normal doesnt mean im gonna micromanage her. Also im not doing any quick fixes... why is normal riding always referred to as quick fixes. Again im doing natural and tradition methods together. Chance was quite happy after the ride, following me around, asking for me to scratch her and just had a much better attitude towards me! Im just gonna read her as I go and do what seems right. Put her first of course but still remind her that she needs to do what shes told. Im not gonna force of course haha that rymed.

EventerDrew- Thanks for sharing your story. I've considered that many times but she means to much to do that. I've been backing off of the parelli work as far as saddle work goes. I havent done any ground work really in the last 3 days. And she already seems to have a better expression on her face.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm sorry but self-assessments mean nothing....and saying you can do the self-assessments are great, but at the phases required for that level? Level 3 is everything at phase 1...they'll allow 1-2 phase 2s but no 3s or 4s. Level 4...all phase 1 and it's even lighter than phase 1...they want the horse to back up with just a look. 
I watched your video online that you posted in Natural Horsemanship section and there is no phase 1. I wouldn't be surprised that she was just upset about you "screaming" at her with your body language.

If your riding is level 2 riding, with her taking off and rearing, then I must be level 7 :wink:
Natural and traditional riding added together equals traditional riding. 

She is your horse, but I had a horse just like her when I was younger. She "seemed" happy with traditional riding or so I thought. In reality it was because I was creative then, not because she hated NH or it wasn't for her. Once I realized that she was an awesome horse! We did tons of cool stuff. I say traditional riding is a quick fix because "is it the horse's fault" always comes on thought by the rider or owner at one point...they just can't realize that the horse just does what it feels it needs to to survive or to make you happy. There is no right or wrong in a herd situation. We are the ones imposing on them...I'm sure they'd be just as happy to sit in a field all day eating grass than having to put up with us. I got the cold hard truth with my horse when she reared up and flipped over backwards on me after 4 full years of traditional riding after I stopped NH...why? Because she was LBI and had enough of me telling her what to do. THey need to be motivated...not bullied into doing something or making them do something.

I just have a feeling how this all will end, because Chance reminds me so much of my old mare, and I was lucky that mare didn't kill me then.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

How about you stop judgeing the way I work with my horse. You've only seen edited videos. You've seen nothing that ive done with her in person. Chance does almost everything at phase 1+2. Theres times i have to use a quick 3+4 but most of the time its 1+2. I do skip P1 sometimes because its a habit. Self assessments actually do mean something. If they didn't they wouldnt have them. The rearing and taking off is RECENT not something shes done for quite a while.

Ive never bullied my horse. And Chance has only come close to killing or hurting me when I was doing Parelli. Same in the past when I was doing parelli and the past 3 days till yesterday when I stopped. Its easy to do NH and Traditional together..-.-! All you gotta do is read/listen to the horse. It doesn't confuse the horse either like i've heard a million times from parelli people. Also I never said she hated it. It just doesnt give the results. And I never just blame the horse, like ive said, I look at myself first!

Honestly if your gonna keep it up can you just not reply to this thread. I've made up my mind.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

yes self assessments mean something when you are doing it correctly


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

And you have no idea if I am or not.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes....well.....the thing I will throw out there is that a lot of times people will say "My horse was fine until Parelli," but that's because Parelli EXPOSES the holes in the foundation. People find holes they didn't even know existed. I see it all the time, people tip-toeing around their horses because they don't like this or that or they get pushy and dominant if they insist on something....sorry, but that's not going to work. You HAVE to expose the issue and then fix it. Take the time it takes....


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

alright guys, let's get off the Parelli train and get back onto the original topic. 

Anyone else have tips for HAF to help her with Chance?


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you !

Yesterday was a very good riding day, but who knows if it will last lol so Yes any more tips would be great. Ill be riding her again monday possibly.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Wow, haven't been by in a while, busy clinic/meeting weekend. Hangin in there HAF? Seems like your rides have been going better, congrats.

I swear, this stuff cracks me up sometimes. I run into it constantly, even in the clinic that I was teaching yesterday, everyone gets so caught up in methods. Everyone asks, "do I do this, or do I do that? With this type of horse, what exercise should I do and what will help with this?" Listen to the horse! Its not a matter of obedience, its a matter of understanding.

Leadership is something that you find in yourself, not in any program that you follow. Leadership is a love and understanding for something bigger than yourself (and I'm not referring to physical size). Its within you, if you overanalyze anything, you get robotic, unable to act on instinct and guide yourself with that instinct. Let it flow. Confidence and consistancy build leadership, not DVDs.

Ok, take a look at it from this view. After looking at this thread, HAF looks like a confused horse to me. Is she getting frusterated? Yes, but it doesn't look like its at Chance, it looks like it is at everyone else that is posting on this thread, which, ironically, are the former comrades. Its just like a confused horse, they act out in confusion and when they are pushed and pushed, they push back. Its natural instinct in defensiveness for any living creature, she has the option to flight, and leave this thread alone, or fight. Go figure, its not just prey animal behavior.

Heres the thing, I don't give a rats behind if Chance is an LBE, LBI, RBE, or a flying monkey. (well, actually a flying monkey would be pretty cool) I don't care if HAF is level 1, 2, or 254. What kills me is that everyone thinks that they know this horse so well. If everyone knows so much about leadership, then how about this...... Leaders guide, they do not offer unnecessary lashings. They inform, they allow people to make their choices, learn from their mistakes, and then show them a way to make it better, yet offering advice along the way. If I have brought out defensive behavior to the extreme in my horse, or in another person, then that is questioning my leadership ability. Yes, it is the leaders job to find weakness in order to find a way to build strength, yet if that leader keeps picking and prodding at the same thing without making progress, then they are a one trick pony and will only make the problem worse, unable to adapt to the situation at hand that whatever they had to offer didn't work, so they need to find a new way.

The thing about horses that always fascinated me is their ability to keep you watching, keep you learning. It never gets boring, because there is always something new. Over the years, I have made plenty of mistakes and in some ways I am still paying for my sins. What throws a kink in everyones plans is that one horse that won't follow suit. That horse that forces you to become a better rider, a better leader, and a better person. This horse may hurt you, it will make you cry, may make you bleed, and make you question the fact if you are even up to this job, and I pray that everyone finds that horse. This horse will teach you more about yourself and what you are doing than any book or DVD, their brute honesty will force you to step up your game, look between the lines, or give up and go home. This horse won't follow the book, they will write their own, and you will be that much better for learning to read it, and having the opportunity to fill in some of the pages.

I always tell people, watch everything, take it all in, use what works and what is best for your horse. If Chance is telling you that Parelli isn't for her, then believe me, she isn't the first. Use what you've learned from the program, and go on your way. I am not of a fan for multiple reasons, and have spent more time fixing Parelli horses rather than enjoying being in their company. The simplest advice that I can give is listen to your horse, as soon as you hit some catch, you stop their and fix that before moving on, as you will only keep tearing the hole. This may mean that you aren't trotting at every ride, or cantering, its not about obedience and compliance, its about correctness and willingness. I don't care about finesse or freestyle, I care about the horse, and from what I've learned, horses suck at following the rule book. I would love to be able to help out further, but the best way to figure it out is to back track your steps to the very first sign of resistance, and that is where you start. It may be at catching, grooming, saddling, mounting, forward transitions, downward transitions, I really can't say. What she is blowing up into is the extreme of defensive behavior, which means that there were signs before, which can be as simple as pinning her ears in her canter transition. Just watch the horse. Good luck, don't get discouraged, and remember that its a horse, she doesn't understand how to follow your agenda, she only knows how to react out of what is compromising her own safety.


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

What a great post. Everyone should read this. Over and over again. 

Go beyond methods. The methods, be it Parelli or anyone else's (and every trainer in the world has methods to a certain extent because that's how people think. Good ones are more flexible in their methods), are like road signs. But you shouldn't just blindly follow the signs. You should know where you are going and why you're going there. Work on understanding horse body language, horse psychology, and constantly constantly work on improving your ability to read it and respond in a way the horse comprehends. And consistency. That's where a lot of people struggle but something horses absolutely need to feel secure. Horses (and people) like knowing where the boundaries are. Misbehaviour in horses (and people -- these relationships mirror each other) often appears because their handlers don't behave in a consistent way that horses understand. People can really suck at setting boundaries, even with members of their own species. Think about yourself. If you're in a relationship with someone and they don't set boundaries, or they are really inconsistent about it so you never know where you stand, you feel really stressed out. So the horse gets insecure, she tests the boundaries, she reacts to something you do but if you're not clear in yourself what you wanted or had a communication breakdown, the reaction might not be the one you wanted. You see it so much: the horse does something the handler doesn't like; she gets some kind of negative reinforcement for it, or the handler freaks out and gets scared, or something goes wrong, and the horse simply has no idea what's going on because the handler sometimes behaves like a leader and sometimes they don't. Always be thinking about consistency and clarity. When you're thinking about methods, let go of all the bullsh*t and think about those two things. What method can you use consistently but yet is adaptable to ever-changing circumstances (what works when the horse is calm might not work when she is in heat or freaking out about a flapping plastic bag)? What method does the horse understand? These are key to creating a good relationship with a horse. You have to be cognizant of setting boundaries and also know how to do it. 

That's where a lot of these methods are sort of trying to go. It's a long process. Takes years of work to build a really solid relationship with a horse, the kind where everything is just easy, but it happens. You know, I can go to the barn and pretty much tell you before I get there how my horse is going to act, what my ride will be like, how she is going to respond to x, y, and z. I can be totally off on my own planet and kind of shut off my brain and have nae bother with her. It wasn't like that the first years I had her, but after ten years we know each other so well and she knows exactly what I expect of her. We don't have to have discussions about boundaries, really, because she knows where they are and feels secure and happy. She's content and happy, I don't have to work hard, it's great. What's funny is that I have boarded at barns where people thought I must not be a very good horsewoman, as my horse was so good all the time that they never saw me working through any seriously bad behaviour. I worked *hard* when I first got that horse to train her to be super good and get a great bond with her because I can't be fecked working that hard every day for ten years. 

You can do it, too You just have to think -- are you setting boundaries? Does she know what's expected of her? Are you able to communicate clearly with her?


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Holy cow! It just hit me. Your bad ride was on the same day as the earthquake in Haiti, and that was the same day I couldn't get Puck to calm down. I'm not into crystals or scented candles, but I know that animals are in tune to nature in a way that no human is capable of. That particular earthquake was very close to the surface and was the result of a major fault line giving way. I bet those suckers felt it! 

Regardless, I'm glad you've since been having better rides. I finally got past my tree stump too only to move onto a new challenge...thread coming soon.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Flitterbug- THANK YOUUUUU times 100! You got everything I ever thought about in one post, and in english!! The flying monkey bit made me laugh lol! 

TheSilverspear- Thats the problem with parelli, theres no options it their way or no way. I want to have many different ways of working with my horses not just force the horses to do the parelli stuff when the horse clearly doesnt like it! Chance does not like the riding, it bores her. How can you possibly make working on a simple fig 8 .. or follow the rail "fun". The second I made the ride more challenging and active, her whole attitude changed. Also Im a lot more like a leader when im doing my own thing with different methods put into one in my own personal way, because im not worried about doing it wrong etc. My leadership is also a lot more consistant when I dont have to continuously go back to dvds and such and change my method again to her horseinality, I honestly think that confuses her more. Thank you for the great reply 

Myboypuck- Im so glad you got over the stump issue! Thats realllly interesting about the earthquake. It could very well have effected them. Interesting! 

Im hopefully going to ride Chance tomorrow at some point. Ill let you know how she does.


----------



## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

HAF- I'll keep this short and sweet. First I do think it could have been the earthquake, have seen stuff like that before. More importantly, no critique from me, just a comment. That video you posted "one of those days" I have watched it a bunch of times, and I think "some day I'll be able to canter my OTTB bareback like that". Thanks for inspiring me!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Awe Thank you, im so glad I inspired you!

Keep working at it, im certin you'll be able to canter you guy bareback soon!


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I never said chance was wrong, more or less the one who caused her own actions. And sadly I can never get video of her when shes in a LBE mode.
> 
> Im not upset in anyways I'm more or less just annoyed with being told that the way Im doing things is wrong or people assuming that I was mad or forcing her or not giving her breaks [not you] when they werent even around me, So yeah im slightly on the defensive side atm.
> 
> ...



No offense, but I'd like to point out that you made a thread asking for a critique. That pretty much means open season on whatever you have the knackers to post.... you are getting what you asked for! Sometimes it can hurt when people express their opinions, but you asked for a critique. 

Ok, a few things. 


1. Vet ≠ chiropractor. I too see the subluxation in your horses back. Just by watching the video, the horse is at very least mildly uncomfortable, if not in building pain that causes it to blow up when it gets to be too much. This isn't necessarily something you've done, it could be something as simple as the horse slipping on wet or icy ground the wrong way, bumping their hip into a solid object, etc. A number of things can completely wrench the back, and 90% of vets are NOT chiropractors. It would be best to have a specialist out. 

You can tell the horse is uncomfortable by the way she carries her head. She REALLY bobs her head, indicating pain in the spine, jaw, or hip. I'd guess pain in the jaw caused from evading the bit for whatever reason. Could even be several ribs are out... maybe a combination of them all! Another main indication is how the horse half trots half canters on its own until you push her into a canter. Get her checked out! 


2. Just an FYI, in a way you are training backwards. If you ask your horse to trot, and it breaks into a canter, you should bring her back to the trot-- that is what you asked for, and a horses job is to perform the maneuvers you ask for until you decide it is time for a different maneuver. You are essentially training her that if she wants to canter, you'll let her. She's training you. If a chiro eval comes out perfectly fine (which it won't), the problem is that you've trained her that she's in charge, and when you try and change that she gets mad and exhibits dominance like she would with another horse in the field. I guarantee your horse is in some kind of pain, but this could be part of it too. 

3. In part of your video, it has a little blurb at the bottom that says "headset!". It wasn't a true headset or true roundness-- your horse is strung out and inverted, and when his head was down he was completely behind the vertical and evading the bit. Again, it makes me think pain. What kind of bit are you riding in? It would be very hard for your horse to collect properly anyways if she's out of alignment, but the bit could be pinching her too. Just something to consider. 



Overall, you've got a cute horse, and you are a solid rider! I admit that I couldn't canter around bareback that many times with that good of balance, something I definitely need to work on. 

Good luck with everything!


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I never asked for a critique on my video it was there to prove a point. 

Any time she cantered it was me asking. Either I was kissing to her or using my inside leg to cue her. She never broke into a canter without asking, if that happened it would be a miricle.. lol

I might ask my mom to get a chiropractor out, because I am really worried about how she is always hollowed out. Ill get that all checked out, thank you for pointing that out  I really cant seem to spot that type of stuff. 

With the headset, I never asked for that, that was her doing it herself. She always have ever since I started doing a bunch of circle work. But again ill get her check out and see whats going on there. I never really claimed she was really collected or what not I just thought it was cool that she was putting herself in a "headset".

And Thanks  It seems that bareback is my strong point.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Wow. Spirit and Savvy - Especially Savvy, you have been incredibly rude. I would be absolutely furious if anyone spoke to me like that about myself, my riding and my horse - Especially if they had never seen me ride. You just added fuel to the "Parelli is a cult" fire.

HAF, you kept your cool way better than I would have.

I agree 100% with what Flitterbug posted - I think you are on the right track, by listening to what your horse is saying instead of blindly following a program. Kudos to you.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you wild_spot  Oh and I agree, Ill admit I never saw what people ment about relating it to a cult till recently.

Honestly, after that im glad Im not doing the program because I dont want to be in that type of 'group'. 

Thanks again


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I never asked for a critique on my video it was there to prove a point.
> 
> Any time she cantered it was me asking. Either I was kissing to her or using my inside leg to cue her. She never broke into a canter without asking, if that happened it would be a miricle.. lol
> 
> ...


Ah, my mistake, I jump between the training and critique forum mostly, I thought I was still in critique! 

I didn't watch your video with sound, but you said several posts back that if she starts to canter you'll push her into it as if you asked and intended to canter in the first place. When I watch the video, I see lots of half canter/half trot until you visibly cue her into it.... I'm not trying to offend you or be rude, but which is it? 

Sometimes my uber long posts (which I never intend on making) are misconstrued as me being snotty or rude, I never mean to. If I'm upset it will be obvious, haha. 



Question: Why do you use your inside leg to cue for canter? Are you intending on showing?


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

About the inside leg- Its the way I learned it from the day I started riding. 

When I was doing parelli if she offered the canter I would take it. But in the video I would give her the cue very lightly then ask again with more clearity. If she offers it I may take it once in a while. She was doing half trot/canter because she kept wanting to break, she did break at one spot at the corner where she broke for a few seconds then I asked again.


----------



## XxHunterJumperxX (Jul 11, 2009)

Remember one thing (unofficial quote of the parellis)

-The horse doesn't have a whole list of problems, they one have one... Me! Their own, personal predator.-

The horse doesn't have problems, rider doesn't have problems, Parelli training doesn't have problems... It's just the communication that is having problems.

Just stay calm, as you were, and keep it up. She may have just been in a "I don't want to work" mood, as Pat said "Find out what side of the stall they woke up on!" So don't just wake up and say "I am going to really work, and try hard today" Once you see your horse, and just hang out for a little, THEN descide if today is the right day.

Just an idea.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Please drop all parelli comments. I understand your trying to help, ant thank you. But I want to stay away from that type of conflict again. I did, Like I always do before riding or anything do some UDT [undemanding time] either in teh pasture or in her stall then groom She actually got a whole hour of grooming that day. 

We always have better communications undersaddle when I drop the parelli, it hardly takes anything for her to understand and willingly do what is asked.


Hope this doesnt sound rude cause its not ment to be


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow...


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yes????


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Do most of your problems happen at the canter? From the video I saw primarily canter work..... is that the gait you ride the most at? 

If so, maybe you should go back to mostly trot work for awhile. Maybe she's breaking because she's tired and doesn't have the muscle (or again, she's in pain) to hold the canter for long periods of time and she's telling you by bucking and exhibiting bad behavior. 

Try a few sessions back at the trot, nice, calm sessions of trot and transition work. If you canter, try using it for short periods of time, to work on your transitions. Also, sometimes horses get bored and *stuck* where they are, so changing up the focus of the work on say... just transitions is very helpful. Get her brain in a different mode! 

Walk for your 10 minute warm up. Do circles, extend the walk, slow down/collect the walk. Go both directions. Think about how she moves on both sides, does she feel even, or does she short step or twist on a certain side? Walking can tell you a lot about how she's feeling. 

After your warm up, think about a nice, even jog or trot. Think about achieving the perfect trot right away... no speeding up or rushing. Trot for several strides. Then, think about the perfect walk transition. Aim for it on the first try-- you obviously don't want her to trot for 10 strides before she does what you ask. If it takes her awhile to break to the walk, it could be an indication that she's not as balanced or muscled as she should be to achieve the desired result. Transitions aren't the most fun thing in the world, but they are very important for balance, collection, etc. 

Once you've got the walk to trot transition solid, and I mean REALLY solid, then you should think about attempting the canter. It might not even be in the same session. Transition work is great for muscle building and it is a pretty hard workout! 

Once you are ready to canter, think about it, and ask for a perfect transition from that nice even trot, to a nice controlled canter. If she takes off, come right back down to the trot and even it up again. If she does a good job, let her canter for a few strides, tell her she's a good girl, and ask her to trot. When the horse knows that it can get a rest or break after doing a good job, it'll be more willing to work hard for you. 

Just try it for a few sessions. The idea is just to change her perception of work-- look for the reward of the down transition/walk, and have her start realizing that she can have fun too. When you first start out, give her lots of walking time in between intense transition sessions, she'll appreciate it. 


Good luck.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

That was actually the most canter work we did since I broke her, so that was a great day! I do need to do a lot more trot work with her and get it more solidd. She has a very solid walk/trot and back down. Canter is a work in progress and I think its because shes lacking a lot of muscle in her hind because shes so much on the forehand.


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

The best thing for building even muscle is equal amounts of trotting in both directions. It is great for stamina! 

I'd also use the trot to teach her how to lift her back and get off of the forehand, much easier than at the canter.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I didnt know that, ll keep that in mind  I really need to start getting her worked EQUALYY on both sides lol going to the right is her weaker side so ill start doing more trotting work on that side as well.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Did you break her in yourself?


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yup. The only real training shes had was from me. She was only saddle broke when I got he, not broke to ride.

But but she was abused by people from the day she was born till the day I bought her, she was 4 then.. now shes 6, and broke around 4 1/2 or 5 once we got past the trust issues. so she has so slight problems that come up now and then. Which is why every once in a while she will have these moments that seem like you will never get over them.


----------



## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

I agree with what someone said earlier. That mare looks like she's in some kind of pain if she's bobbing her head that much. Remember the time where you posted and said you had an awesome ride up until the last few minutes when she exploded - bucking, rearing, etc.?

Classic case of: horse dealing with pain, horse dealing with pain, *horse can't deal with pain anymore*, so it acts out - because it probably told you in other ways that it was hurting, and the message didn't get across. Most people think that if a horse is in that much pain they're going to be bad all the time, and that is not the case. Horses are going to try to deal, express their discomfort in subtler ways, but when the pain becomes overwhelming, they _"explode" "without provocation" "out of the blue."_ I would definitely get a chiropractor out to look at her, and when was the last time she had her teeth floated?

Outside of that, your seat looks good, but you ride her on a really loose rein, which is fine on the flat, but if you're going to jump her you might think about shortening up a bit, so she doesn't have as much of an opportunity to do a superman on you. Also, watch for hitting her in the mouth when you jump. If her teeth do need to be floated, then that could be part of the reason why she gets so ****y and decides to do things her way. 

And, while I admire your bareback riding and think it is an excellent skill to practice, if her back is the problem, a bareback pad doesn't offer the horse as much protection as a saddle with a pad, you grinding her on her back with your butt bones probably isn't helping the situation. (*Disclaimer:* _I'm not saying you are riding bareback badly, just saying that issue is unavoidable while riding bareback no matter the rider, but especially if the rider is a skinny mini like me - and like you appear to be_.) Maybe switch to a saddle for a while and see if she acts any differently?


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Ill get her checked out as soon as I can. I am wondering if thats why shes hollowed all the time. She hollows no matter what if its in saddle or bareback.. sometimes even on ground she will do it. Some people were guessing that its because she hasnt been using her core muscles and I think thats part of it cause once you get her over a good amount of trot poles on gorund she will left her back. But ill get her checked, ill talk to my mom tonight. 

Im gradually tightening it as I go, cause right now if you pick up to much rein she just throws her head like mad cause she feels trapped. Which is why she was doing it in the video some, because parelli was having me ride with no contact what so ever. 

Im working on my release, and staying in 2 point longer so I dont catch her in the mouth as much, but right now im glad she can do everything with almost no contact because I can get away with it here and there.

The 3 times she did the random exploding the first day she would just take off bucking through out the whole ride, but it started at the base of a jump so if shes in pain she probably just wanted ot get over it BUT when I jumped her over it the other way she was fine and even lazy going over it... The 2nd day she did it 3-4 times coming down the long side of teh arena and it was kinda at the begining of the ride. The 3rd... the recent on was at teh end same thing coming down teh long side at a trot and she took off just at teh canter at first but when I want to try and one rein stop her she was more giving me a NO I want to RUNNN type attitude then she started the bucking. Shes in a lot more during the winter so im wondering if some of it is just energy but Ill rule out pain before i assume


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Ill get her checked out as soon as I can. I am wondering if thats why shes hollowed all the time. She hollows no matter what if its in saddle or bareback.. sometimes even on ground she will do it. Some people were guessing that its because she hasnt been using her core muscles and I think thats part of it cause once you get her over a good amount of trot poles on gorund she will left her back. But ill get her checked, ill talk to my mom tonight.
> 
> Im gradually tightening it as I go, cause right now if you pick up to much rein she just throws her head like mad cause she feels trapped. Which is why she was doing it in the video some, because parelli was having me ride with no contact what so ever.
> 
> ...



Trot poles are GREAT! For putting the only training on her, I think you've done a great job. 

A thought about tightening the reins... I like how you said you're starting it out slow. Take up just enough contact that you can feel her mouth. It doesn't have to be a lot, just feel the corners of her mouth. At first horses will resist the contact and try to evade the pressure, either above or behind the bit. Take the light (but still giving) contact with her mouth and don't give it up. She'll eventually figure out that she can either give, or struggle. Obviously if she looks like she'll flip out, release pressure and move onto something else. I'd to this exercise at the walk at first until she understands before you move onto the trot, it's harder for them to accept contact at the higher gaits because it takes more effort for them to perform those gaits in the first place, and if she's not in pain, she's really taught herself to counter balance herself with her head, so it could be hard for her to grasp. 

Lots of reward. 

I think you guys will be just fine. I'm excited to hear what the chiro says!


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh, and if she's got a few ribs out, that would definitely explain the bucking/hollowing you're experiencing.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I talked to my mom the other day and she said that I just need to bring it up to the BO and get teh number so I can make an appt. Im kinda interested to see whats says as well.

I took up a little more contact during my ride today, and boy was she having fun bracing on that. I think I forgot the give part so Ill try again the next time, I was so focused on avoiding lessons kids I forgot about chances poor mouth .. but right now im waiting for the snow to hurry up and finish sliding off the metal roof lol we had a slight mishap today, during mid canter the snow slid and she slammed the breaks, reared and turned in the opposite direction, suprisingly didnt run but my body was still going the other way  so I kinda twisted my back a bit so I think ill just be doing some work with her on ground over trot/canter poles the next time I go up. Which will be good anyways cause im waiting for the crupper for the saddle to come in.


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

I hate the snow sliding off the roof thing, that's the worst, especially when you're on a spooky or angry horse, lol. 

What kind of bit do you use? If it's a snaffle thats cool, I'd rethink a curb right now though. 

Remember, just very light contact. It might take her awhile to figure it out before you can apply more contact after that. 

I'd try to ride when there isn't a bunch of other people in the arena, too.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Right now I ride her in a french link loose ring snaffle. 

and yeah she was spooky alright haha that was a fun experience. 2nd time she spooked she was in mid canter and put on the breaks and reared and turned the other way and.. my body still wanted to go the other way sooo I came off lol

Today I rode her in teh arena with no one in there and it was a GREAT ride  Nice and responsive, good energy. She also finally figured out how to now trip over canter poles


----------

