# unweaned foal who is responsible



## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

quick question. I had purchased a foal. she was 9 days old when I first met her and the breeder was nice enough to make payments. I had her paid off within a few weeks and had planned to wean her at 4months. it was a verbal agreement. and just before she turned three months I came out to find her with a puncture injury to her shoulder. she was three legged lame, running a fever, my vet came out and said the injury was a few days old. she had to be weaned right then as she required IV fluids and meds that she was unable to get from the breeder and I am angry that I was never contacted and he admitted he knew she was hurt and ment to call but didn't call me or a vet, he also stopped feeding her grain as soon as I paid her off without my knowledge. now she is 4months and been problem after problem severe hypp and now a lawsonia infection( equine proliferative entrolitis) and fighting for her life at UW Madison. I did ask for some of my money back on her he said he is not responsible I am from the day I paid her off even though she was a unweaned foal and he knew she was hurt bad and never called anyone. it even gets better since the breeder really isint the breeder that they are partners and the actual breeder wants nothing to do with this they both keep pointing fingers back and fourth and I have spent thousands to keep her alive. she was the horse of my dreams her registered name is a kids cowboy dream by awesome looking kid. the partner has the mare the actual breeder has the stallion but owns the mare. I paid via check to the partner but the registration papers I got are in the breeders name and I was completely unaware that the guy I bought her from was a partner and not the breeder until that point. they live a mile from each other and the breeder hangs out there all the time so I know they both knew she was badly hurt


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh my, messy! I guess no contract on responsibility until you got the foal home? Without that, I imagine you are stuck with what you got until you bring a lawsuit against the breeder and his partner which will be costly and messy as well, in the meantime, you will be paying to care for the foal. So sorry this happened and HYPP on top of all this? Holy Hannah!
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## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

Usually there is a contract. I think you are stuck where you are unless you get a lawyer and fight but its probably not worth it. Was the mare and stallion hypp tested before they were bred?
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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If I were in your shoes, I would get a lawyer and be really careful what I am posting on the internet with searchable names. (such as the stud) This is a really complicated issue for sure. You know now, I am sure, that you should have had a written contract, and not paid her off totally until you went to get her, but that is water under the bridge. At this point, IMO, you all share some blame in this mess. Of course, the breeders failure to notify you OR the vet is inexcusable, and you would think that would kill the deal. But-not contract, so you have no recourse but to sue, and that is exactly what I would do. For ALL the costs of the vets, etc related to the injury, and a refund if the filly is unable to be used. DId you know her HYPP status when you purchased her? If so-bad on you. The stallion in N/N, so the mare must be N/H at the very least.

This is a really sad situation, and honestly at some point you may have to decide that she has been through enough at her young age.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Unfortunately, I agree with the others.
Most responsible breeders I know ask for a down payment to hold the foal until weaned and then require full payment afterwards, which is the safer way to go for both sides. 
Since you paid for the horse in full, in my opinion you are fully responsible for it after the money is handed over and the bill of sale is signed.
You're going to hear a lot of woulda-coulda-shoulda's here, but as the others mentioned, you should have demanded a contract.
In the least, the owner of the property where the foal was at should also have contacted you to let you know the foal had been injured so that you could take action. But it's too late for that and the best you can do now is talk to a lawyer and see what avenues are open for you. which will mean more money, but if the lawyer thinks you have a case, it could be the only way of getting your money back.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

I didn't even get a bill of sale. didn't get the papers until after she was home as he said he couldent find them


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Oooh, that could make things tricky. As a rule, I make sure that if I am buying that I bring a bill of sale with me, all details signed just in case the seller does not have one or does not think it's necessary. That is never something that should be over looked. You need to cover yourself at all angles.
are the papers at least in your name?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I wonder if they would give you a healthy foal to replace this one just to save their reputation.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

nope. no luck even with that


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-I am confused. In your first post, you say she is at Univ. hops "fighting for her life…" then you say you didn't get the papers until she was home. Which is it?

So, you have papers, but they are in the breeders name, and the "partner" has not signed them over? Whose name is she in? Both?

Sounds like you basically have nothing to show for your $$ but a sick foal and vet bills. Is that pretty much right?

I am thinking a lawyer is your only option if the breeder and his "partner" are not willing to help out here.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

between going to UW and the breeders she was bought to my place. I did everything I could for her my vet was out four times in a one week span before reffering her to UW. the partner has her mom but the application of registration is in the breeders name but signed


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

mom is also owned by the breeder


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

this is what she looks like now. these pics were taken yesterday at UW


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Forget about the mess with the breeder, partner, etc. That little filly is going to need all your energy to make it through! Again, so sorry this all happened. What kind of idiots knowingly breed horses with serious genetic defects and ignore serious injuries to a foal?? When this concludes, sue them on principle!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

she has a long road ahead of her. and I will do anything in my power to get her through. the mini horse in the pic is mine also he went with her to uw so she would have a friend in this hard time for her. sad thing is all they care about is the money. the actual breeder is big time into halter showing I do know her full sister won a bunch of money at the futurity last year. its a screwed up deal neither the breeder or partner feel responsible at all for her. breeder says he has nothing to do with it, partner says not his problem


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Isn't there some rule against breeding HYPP studs or mares?


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

Only in aqha nothing for apha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I would still try and talk to a lawyer about your options. Something should be done, as waresbear said, on principal. They need to know they cannot treat customers like this; there has to be a consequence, only then will they attempt to change their ways. It is the fault of both sides, but they don't sound very professional. real horse people and real horse lovers would have done something when they saw the animal was hurt, not just treat it like a profit source and once it is sold, who cares what becomes of it. Sad


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> Isn't there some rule against breeding HYPP studs or mares?


Yes, in the APHA rule book it states they will not register HYPP H/H.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

So if the foal is registered, is it really HYPP? Have you tested her? It would be really nice if that was a mistake for sure.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

If they were any kind of big time breeder or valued the reputation of their breeding program,they would have been doing what they could to help out:shock:. Shame on them!:evil: News can travel fast around the horsie grapevine:wink:


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

I registered her she came with a application for registration. Her registered name is a kids cowboy dream. She was tested by animal genetics, we tested for both hypp and pssm


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

I hope they get what's coming to them in the end for what they did.The breeder has already threatened with lawyers if his name is mentioned he doesent want anyone to know he is associated with her. They just point fingers at each other his partner and him. All I'm going to say is her name is a kids cowboy angel and she can be looked up on all breed pedigree.
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kids Cowboy Dream or Kids Cowboy Angel? Which is it? Neither came up for me on Allbreed. 

Unfortunately, you bought her, she's yours. Most "Live Foal" Guarantees say, "Until the foal stands and nurses" at which point if they become injured or die, it's the new owner's problem. As for HYPP, she's bred from 2 halter horses, what did you expect? She's probably N/H which is STILL bred for in halter circles. If you buy a halter horse before testing to see the status, then you have nothing coming on that score. 

As for the injury, it's a shame they didn't contact you. IMO, they should have, but my opinion and $2 will buy you a cup of coffee. How is the injury related to her current sickness? Has the vet said it's related? How long after the shoulder injury did she become ill?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

a Kids Cowboy Dream Paint


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

**** those pics just killed me.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

As far as the breeder and his threats-pretty simple to figure out who owns the stud. A simple google search will take care of that. Perhaps he should have thought about that before he ignored an injury in a foal. MY guess is if the foal was not yet sold he may have reacted differently. If they are really in it for the $$, as the OP has said, they better make this good. The horse world is WAYYYYY to small for trash not to get around. Everyone knows someone who knows someone.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok, looking at the pedigree and the stallion's ads, the foal can only be N/H at the worst case. Stallion says he's N/N and there is an N/H sire on the dam line but the dam's status is not noted on AllBreed. 

I'm sorry the injury happened and the buyer wasn't notified, that's not cool. From what I'm reading about the sickness though, it doesn't appear to be related to the injury (but I'm no vet, just what I'm interpreting). It looks like the foal just was down on her immunity from the injury and infection and it left her open to pick up something else. 3 months weaned off the dam and her immune system probably just couldn't stand up to injury, infection, stress and then come into contact with a gram negative bacteria and you have a very sick foal. It's a shame and I hope she gets well soon and quickly. None of that is going to make the OP feel any better though, I know.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

It's a interesting situation with the breeder. I bought her from his partner, ( the actual breeder he lives around the corner from him and hangs out at the barn). The breeder even though he owns the parents and who's name the registration papers are in claims he has NOTHING to do with this foal. I didint even know it was in another name until I got the application to register it. As far as her shoulder if she hadent been so run down from that injury I don't believe this would have happened!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ez2bbad64 said:


> It's a interesting situation with the breeder. I bought her from his partner, ( the actual breeder he lives around the corner from him and hangs out at the barn). The breeder even though he owns the parents and who's name the registration papers are in claims he has NOTHING to do with this foal. I didint even know it was in another name until I got the application to register it. As far as her shoulder if she hadent been so run down from that injury I don't believe this would have happened!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm really sorry this happened to you and I hope your foal survives. Unfortunately, you really made a bunch of mistakes in this purchase, but I'll bet you NEVER EVER make them again. No contract, and that is the worst case scenario because it didn't line out who was responsible for what, and when. No bill of sale. They gave you the signed registration application but is there a signed transfer? Because if you send in the registration papers without some kind of transfer showing you now own this foal, those papers may come back in the breeder's name, showing him as the owner. Be very careful how you handle those papers, maybe call APHA and ask exactly what signed forms you need to make sure everything goes in your name. 

The shoulder injury didn't help, for sure, but you can't hold them responsible for this illness. It's kind of like when a human kid gets chicken pox and then gets mumps right after or during, it's unfortunate and it happens. All we can do is medicate, feed and love on 'em until they get well again.


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## Rosebit78 (Mar 26, 2014)

I really hate that they didn't tell you she was hurt, that is not cool. But also as harsh as it sounds please let this be a lesson to NEVER buy a foal that isn't weaned and ready to take home! A down payment and contact of responsibility are all you need to do or just plain wait until it's weaned. I doubt you will get any compensation out of them.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The HYPP is unfortunate and preventable, but not something you can blame the breeders for. That is entirely on you, choosing to buy her. It is something she was born with, she had it when you bought her. (Shame on the breeders for breeding her, but unfortunately not relevant).

Not feeding grain is poor on their part but at her age she was probably ok without it, not the same as intentionally starving her. If you go to court for something else I would bring this up though.

The biggest thing is having a serious injury that has had serious health consequences (and no you can't say they caused the illness, but you could maybe have it as a consequence) and not letting you know about it or treat it.

Then the mess with the papers

Definitely scummy and not someone to do business with but as said you did make some mistakes. You are in the right, but you don't have a contract or proof. You could try taking it to court but that will hurt you.

I don't know any technical laws.

Your poor filly, those pictures are so sad. Good luck.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

How is the filly doing?


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

its day by day with her. the latest is she has swelling in her growth plates and contracted tendons in the rear. she needs the calories from being so very thin from being sick but it aggravates the growth plates. so now she was switched to a ration balancer with oats and rejuvenaid. it seems to be helping her legs she trotted up to the kids last night for dinner and reared when given her meds so she is feeling better. she is so tired of the meds! im worried about winter with her she is so very thin. im going to have to find a blanket for her. as soon as she gets a little stronger she needs a hernia repaired. found out there are at least 5 siblings of hers in the area with the same hernia so that may be genetic too. 8(


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I knew a man that bred his quarter horse stallion to dozens of mares before figuring out that all of them had hernias and half of the colts were cryptorchid. Thankfully he got tired of raising horses and sold out.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

right now she is toed out in the front and cow hocked in the rear. did get a really good farrier who deals with problem horses to trim her up. he thought if we could get some weight on her she would straighten up


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

lilruffian said:


> Unfortunately, I agree with the others.
> Most responsible breeders I know ask for a down payment to hold the foal until weaned and then require full payment afterwards, which is the safer way to go for both sides.
> Since you paid for the horse in full, in my opinion you are fully responsible for it after the money is handed over and the bill of sale is signed.
> You're going to hear a lot of woulda-coulda-shoulda's here, but as the others mentioned, you should have demanded a contract.
> In the least, the owner of the property where the foal was at should also have contacted you to let you know the foal had been injured so that you could take action. But it's too late for that and the best you can do now is talk to a lawyer and see what avenues are open for you. which will mean more money, but if the lawyer thinks you have a case, it could be the only way of getting your money back.




I agree! My foals are often sold before 30 days old. I take a sizable deposit and put it in an escrow account. The foals are weaned at approx. 90 days and the balance is due within 3 days of the weaning. I have everything in a contract. If I have a foal get hurt or die, the client would just get the money I put in escrow back. Now once I have been paid in full all vets etc. are on you. If I have to hang onto a foal until the hauler gets it or until I can get it to a show for delivery, then it stays locked in a stall ( prefer a padded one )


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

I feel so dumb that this all happened. It's not about the fact she got hurt its about the fact no effort was made to help her or contact me. I would have happily paid the vet bill.
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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Without a bill of sale or the transfer form signed, guess who owns this filly? You're paying the vet bills and don't be surprised if they don't claim you stole her and she got injured in the process. Those two men know exactly what's going on and are just playing a finger pointing game to keep you guessing.


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## ez2bbad64 (Aug 13, 2014)

there is no contract but there is a signed transfer. I do have her registered in my name now. the application of registration and transfer was signed by the breeder


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