# Trouble with grabbing mane over jump



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, I don't think I can necessarily stay within the boundaries of what you requested for a critique. You grabbing the mane is based on not being really secure, and that is based on not having your leg under you, primarily.

Is that a jumping saddle you are in? it looks like the stirrup is a bit long, and your leg is out in front of you. I do not see your weight down through your lower leg. It looks like you are riding more off of your knee, which means that your lower leg is not acting as the very strong support that itneeds to be for you to feel secure about the jump. 
When your leg is out in front of you, it means that you are always a bit behind the motion. I think this is maybe why you end up bopping hm in the mouth a bit, and it looks like you aren't always certain when to move up on him, I mean you tend to jump "for" him, rather than having him lift you up and over.

Have you ever done any jumping on a lunge line, without any reins at all? Can you ride your beautiful horse over a series of ground poles in two point? on a loose rein?

Once you have that leg more under you and more connected with weight goind down through it, I think you will feel a world of difference. Your horse is a total doll and you are well suited to him.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Thank you. Everyone at the farm calls him The King. Should I shorten my stirrups by a hole? And the saddle is a Stubben Cavalleria II (all-purpose). And yes, I feel like I have to set him up for the jump or else he might refuse or I'll fall off. What do I need to work on to fix that problem?


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

I also noticed that when I ride him stirrupless or bareback, my lower legs are further up and I have more support. With the stirrups, I feel suspended instead of like I'm being carried.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

I love my horse, ha ha! He has icy blue eyes and his coat glitters (when he's clean). I gave him a bath last night and he watched me hose him off. It was like he was trying to figure out how the hose worked! XD He's cute!


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

Well... their is nothing really wrong with grabbing onto the mane when jumping... But anyway, you should really set up a grid of bounces, and once your positive your horse is confident with it, I would go over the grid with hands OFF the reins, like superman. That should tremendously improve your balance so your not relying on the reins, or his mane. Also, if you learn to do a auto release, that might help with not relying on the mane.


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## Poneigh (May 25, 2012)

I agree with tiny, you are riding with a chair seat and it has caused you to be off balance. definitely shorten your stirrups for jumping and work in 2pt a lot on the flat as well as over trot poles and small gymnastics to get your lower leg stronger and able to support your body. that way you wont feel the need to throw your body at his neck and you will become less dependent on the mane. Jumping for your horse wont encourage him to jump but instead put you in a position to fall if he were to stop or trip. you seem like a very capable rider but i do not think you are at the point where you should be learning an automatic release, it is an advanced release and something to work on once you are in better balance and not reliant on the mane. 
you guys seem like a really good team and your horse is handsome! good luck to both of you!


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Thanks guys. We worked on a single three foot jump today. He was having trouble with it before. He would pause and then jump over, and then stop right after the jump. I shortened my stirrups by a hole and then did the same jump today, and he hopped over it like crossrails! I grabbed his mane a little, out of habit, but I relied more on my seat and lower legs. He refused a few times today (he always does at least once), and I didn't feel like I was about to be thrown off. I will try to post a video soon. He now canters through and out of the jump, and I feel like I am MUCH more secure in my seat, at least compared to before. It took some trial and error (meaning: I ALMOST flew over his neck because I didn't go into two-point), so I decided to lower the jump to a crossrails (1ft. in the center) and focus on what I was doing wrong. After twenty or so minutes, I raised it to three feet again and tried to translate what I learned into the new, higher jump, and there was a WORLD of improvement.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Poneigh said:


> I agree with tiny, you are riding with a chair seat and it has caused you to be off balance. definitely shorten your stirrups for jumping and work in 2pt a lot on the flat as well as over trot poles and small gymnastics to get your lower leg stronger and able to support your body. that way you wont feel the need to throw your body at his neck and you will become less dependent on the mane. Jumping for your horse wont encourage him to jump but instead put you in a position to fall if he were to stop or trip. *you seem like a very capable rider* _but i do not think you are at the point where you should be learning an automatic release_, it is an advanced release and something to work on once you are in better balance and not reliant on the mane.
> *you guys seem like a really good team and your horse is handsome! good luck to both of you!*


Bold 1: Thank you. My goal is Grand Prix or Olympics. I'm starting small, however, ha ha!

Italics: I have no idea what an automatic release is.  Please explain?

Bold 2: Yeah, we have our good days and bad ones. Today was a very good one; we made TONS of improvement.  And yes, he sure is a handsome devil. :twisted: Thank you so much!


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## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

Do you have a coach who's helping you ?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

If you still occassionally hit the horse in the mouth, then grabbing mane is correct and appropriate and what you should be doing to preserve your nice horse's good attitude. The fact that you're pulling mane OUT when you jump tells me that you're exerting significant force on the mane and would not stay off his back and out of his mouth without using mane. 

If you'd like to preserve the horse's mane, you can buckle and old stirrup leather or fasten a cord or cable around the horses' neck to hold on to instead. 

The problems that cause you to be unstable or unbalanced over the fence are too complex to be addressed in a message board post, not within the scope of the critique you're willing to permit, and should be addressed by your instructor. 

I will say that if you were my student, we'd be working on your two point position on the flat A LOT, and working over trot poles and cavaletti and approaching your jumps in two point rather than trying to time the jump. I would have you trotting cavaletti followed by a crossrail and then a little gymnastic rather than cantering single fence.s


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Mckellar said:


> Do you have a coach who's helping you ?


Yeah. My riding teacher is awesome!  He is more of a Western kind of man, but he is also an expert on show jumpers and dressage. He is amazing. I feel horribly for him, though. One of his mares and her foal got struck by lightening a few days ago.... They both died....


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

maura said:


> If you still occassionally hit the horse in the mouth, then grabbing mane is correct and appropriate and what you should be doing to preserve your nice horse's good attitude. The fact that you're pulling mane OUT when you jump tells me that you're exerting significant force on the mane and would hot stay off his back and out of his mouth without using mane.
> 
> If you'd like to preserve the horse's mane, you can buckle and old stirrup leather or fasten a cord or cable around the horses' neck to hold on to instead.
> 
> ...


I agree....my timing has gotten loads better, though. I will try to post another video soon. I have done a bit of homework, and I discovered that I NEED to be stretching out my calves and ankles before I even walk. If I can't stay balanced that way, there's no way I can stay properly balanced over a three foot fence. 


*Alrighty....I now permit you guys to critique my riding in general.* The reason I didn't want you to at first is because I was (and still am) afraid of what you will say. I don't want to be a bad rider! >< And if I am, it would be humiliating to hear it from people I respect! *Just remember to be honest, but polite....civil.* *I'm willing to admit my mistakes if you are willing to point them out to me in a kind, helpful manner.*


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## Laineylou (Sep 26, 2011)

Maura has some good advice with the leather strap idea. In fact where I ride everyone starts out with a collar on their horse. I don't know if there is a technical name for such a collar but it is just a leather strap buckled around the horses neck.

When students first learn to canter and when they first do jumping they're unbalanced so the instructors encourage them to hold onto the collar if they feel unbalanced. After that they wean the students off the collar just by teaching them how to maintain a balanced seat and build confidence.

I'm pretty much a beginner myself when it comes to English riding. I just got weaned off the collar actually. I can't give you any advice being a beginner myself. But I encourage you to try that idea and see how it works. It gave me something to hold onto if I felt unbalanced and the bonus was I didn't end up accidentally tugging on the horse's mouth or anything when I moved to right myself.

Hope that helps, I'm not a professional so I can only give you my own experiences. cx


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

You've already gotten a lot of good advice here. From the looks of it, your biggest issue right now is your base of support (or lack thereof). It looks to me like an issue that you aren't going to fix by going over more jumps, but rather, by working on your strength and balance on the flat.

As someone else mentioned, you have a chair seat right now, and that is going to make it nearly impossible for you to get into a solid two-point. One of the best ways to work on bringing your leg back under you is to play around with your posting rhythm. Rise for two/three/four strides, sit one. If you don't have your leg solidly under you, you won't be able to stay up there. (And of course be certain that you aren't holding yourself up with the reins.)

Then work on getting your two-point rock solid. Start at the walk, sinking your heel down to ensure that you can properly use all of your calf for support, rather than your knee, and just hold it for a while. You can start by placing your hands on your horse's crest as an additional balance point (think of yourself as a tripod with your hands and each leg being your supports), but you need to work to the point there you can hold your hands out to the side like airplane wings and still maintain a proper two-point. Lather, rinse, and repeat at the trot and canter. If you're having trouble at any point, go back to the walk and try to post and/or get into your two-point with no stirrups. You may not be able to get yourself all the way up, but it will remind you which muscles you need to employ to hold a proper two-point when you pick your stirrups back up (and perhaps which muscles you may want to work to strengthen off the horse as well).

Once you have that down, start trotting over poles. Post the trot until you are 3-4 strides away from the poles, then get up into your two-point. Stay up in your two point until you are 3-4 strides out from the poles. You want to retrain your body to stay up in two point until your brain decides it is darn good and ready to sit back in the saddle, because right now, you aren't able to hold yourself up long enough, so you are falling back into the saddle too early, which is what ultimately leads to you pulling clumps of mane out and/or bumping your horse in the mouth. 

None of this stuff is terribly exciting or fun, but stepping back and addressing your foundational issues will take you so much farther in the long run than trying to figure it out while you're going over fences.


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## Karisel (Jul 6, 2012)

I absolutely agree with the other posts here. However, I think another thing to note is that you seem to be "anticipating" the fence. What I mean is that you begin to lean forward before your horse is ready to jump, and you reach with your hands before he needs you to. It will help your balance over the fence tremendously if you go into your jumping position as your horse takes off rather than before, and it will help you to really ride him to the jump.

I totally understand this problem- I struggled with it forever! It is a reaction to being nervous. I know you're weary of your horse refusing, but it seems that you two get along very well! If you shift your weight forward before the jump, many horses will either jump way long or take advantage of your seat and run out. Your boy seems to have a great head on his shoulders! Try to sit deep in your seat before the jump and learn to count your "3, 2, 1's" (number of strides to when your horse jumps - if you have a trainer, s/he should be familiar). This takes a lot of practice, but helped my balance tremendously, and should in turn help you keep his mane looking beautiful. 

He's gorgeous! Keep up good practice and you guys will be balanced in no time.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Thanks, everyone. Thanks for helping me and teaching me. Thanks for being polite, helpful, and honest in your comments. I rode for two hours today after not having ridden in three days, and it was a little rough (and my jeans were very sweaty, so it was harder not to bounce around in the saddle), but we worked our way up to the three-foot fence again, and it went well, even though he had several refusals. I figured out it was because we were either going too slow, too fast, or his body wasn't straight enough for the jump. Plus, it was about 100 degrees out today.

Anyway, we HAD to do flatwork for the first hour, because there were four other people and three other horses in the arena. There was a teenager, the BO's ten year old daughter, the teenager's mom, and the teenager's dad. The poor teenager's horse! Her parents were yelling at her to shorten her reins and jerk him to make him stop. He had on a tie-down and he kept fighting it. The bit was WAY too far up his jaw and it got higher every time the girl would yank. The thing is, she was riding Western, and the reins are supposed to be slack! I was riding with more slack than she was, and her parents took no notice of me until....

Winchester broke his bridle. I had him hitched at the fence, and I decided to set up a crossrails because the flatwork was getting boring (and I felt like showing off a bit 8D). Well, he decided that the pole I was dragging in front of him was going to eat him, so he backed up, and the cheek pieces just snapped. He was headshy for a moment because he was still afraid (plus the dad was behind him acting all macho, waving his arms so that Winny couldn't run out of the open gate), but he calmed down once I touched his neck and petted his face. Luckily, the reins and the bit are perfectly fine. I just need to get a new headstall.

Our session went well before the bridle broke, but the BO's English bridle has a French Link instead of the loose ring snaffle I use, and Winchester suddenly got hard in the mouth again....so the rest of our session together was....frustrating. That was also when he had all of his refusals.

And thanks for all of the compliments about Winchester! He is a pretty boy....BEFORE he rolls in the dirt! XD

I'll keep this thread updated, and I'll TRY to have a video posted in the next week!


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

totally off topic... but is his one front leg black? it looks like he's running around with one black polo wrap on! he's so rad!


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Haha, he does, doesn't he? XD Yeah, that leg is black! I love my horse!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i hope he wasnt tied by his reins !?!?


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Wonderful thing, too - when you start supporting yourself (and subsequently your horse) with your leg, you'll get "more horse" under you. He looks like he may take some real encouragement to keep moving, and once you get your leg solid, you will be able to efficiently help your horse maintain impulsion and energy. Beautiful boy, reminds of my friend's horse Snowball.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> i hope he wasnt tied by his reins !?!?


He was, actually. It's a bad habit I have....but he is never tied like that for more than five minutes. Normally, if I go to set up a jump or if I want a break, I just slip off his bridle and let him chill out in the arena. I couldn't do that this time, though, because the people who were in the arena with me wouldn't let me close the gate. I also don't think they would have appreciated me letting my horse loose with three of their horses, even if the gate was closed. I wish they would have just let me close the gate and let him run loose for a few minutes while I set up a small jump. He usually behaves pretty well with other horses.

So yeah, it *was* my fault. It was also a mistake; an accident on my part. HOWEVER, as a replacement bridle, I'm getting a Freedom Bridle. You can use it bitless, with a bit, or as a halter. So I won't have the "tied by the reins" problem any more.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Equilove said:


> Wonderful thing, too - when you start supporting yourself (and subsequently your horse) with your leg, you'll get "more horse" under you. He looks like he may take some real encouragement to keep moving, and once you get your leg solid, you will be able to efficiently help your horse maintain impulsion and energy. Beautiful boy, reminds of my friend's horse Snowball.


Haha, thanks. Actually, my horse is quiet lazy. He doesn't need too much encouragement (seeing as he'll go from a trot to a gallop if he wants to, ha ha), given that he has TONS of spark. But he is lazy....


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Ripplewind said:


> Haha, thanks. Actually, my horse is quiet lazy. He doesn't need too much encouragement (seeing as he'll go from a trot to a gallop if he wants to, ha ha), given that he has TONS of spark. But he is lazy....


Yes they can all be spunky "when they want" lol unfortunately 90% of the time when THEY want to be is not when YOU want them to be!! And when you do want it, they don't.  Clever ponies

Seriously though, I believe being able to keep your leg on him will get him moving better. Sometimes a lot of little reminders (I.E., squeezing when he starts to slow down or using a vocal cue) is not as effective as keeping a solid leg on his barrel and driving him forward


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Equilove said:


> Yes they can all be spunky "when they want" lol unfortunately 90% of the time when THEY want to be is not when YOU want them to be!! And when you do want it, they don't.  Clever ponies
> 
> Seriously though, I believe being able to keep your leg on him will get him moving better. Sometimes a lot of little reminders (I.E., squeezing when he starts to slow down or using a vocal cue) is not as effective as keeping a solid leg on his barrel and driving him forward


Yup. I showed my trainer what it looks like when Winny and I jump three feet (or a little over. I haven't measured it yet.), and he said he was very surprised and impressed that we were able to make it over at all, let alone without dying. :shock: Winchester has some jump, and I guess I have a good grip! He had us do it a few times, and we improved a bit. But we still have a ways to go before we go up to four feet. Either way, I scored an AWESOME jumper.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

One thing I noticed is that you have this tendency to hunch over, especially right before the jump. It's not an uncommon problem, because I actually have posture problems too. You'll want to open your chest like you're going to crow, as someone told me. Also, I think you might be hunching because you're nervous as to whether or not your horse will jump. I have the same exact problem. My instructor always tells me that the best defense is to sit up straight and not hunch over. When you're riding, sit up tall. And try to remember it over the jump - it's pretty hard, but once you get into the habit of it, it gets easier.

Your horse is very pretty! And with some tweaks to your position, I think you will be well on your way to your goal!


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