# Horse Gelded Late



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

My pony was also gelded late, and my barn owner thinks that is part of the reason he tends to want to be dominant. He was also a stud pony for some time (what a stud!) and according to her, that can make it that much worse, especially when it comes to interactions with other horses.

A lot of people, however, will tell you it's just an excude people make for poor behavior. Like, "Oh, he was gelded late," or "Oh, she's having a mare day," or "Oh, he's just being a pony." And that it shouldn't make any difference to his behavior.

I don't know what I believe. But I've been told both ways.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

The biggest issues are the handling, the training and how he was introduced to a new life and job...
You as his new owner and handler must be a firm taskmaster...kind and fair but a teacher of what you expect from him in all he does.
Some horses retain some of their intact ways, but at his age and the fact he has been off the track and a riding horse for as long as he has..._he has band manners and attitude._
He needs a education not excuses and he needs taught by someone who knows what they are doing...
Where is your special trainer in helping you with this?
I thought this was a accomplished trainer who works with "problem" horses?

Also realize that Chase_ is not_ Justice and has a more energetic personality...
Chase _is not_ a laid back personality but high-energy and needs channeling of his energy...
Just his attitude alone is up and very aware...
Where Justice _is _calm and steady...
Chase _will never_ be laid-back, calm and easy to ride or handle...you have a smouldering stick of dynamite.

This Lydia is where you really need that experienced horse person to help and guide you...
Or if that is not going to happen of extra experienced and educated hands assisting... then do please consider re-homing/selling Chase is you have such difficulty handling him.
It _*is*_ your safety that concerns all of us who have repeatedly commented to be careful...
:runninghorse2:...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

In my opinion, no. But I think it depends on how the horse was handled.
My bay horse wasnt gelded until later. Was supposed to be a futurity prospect. I bought him and knew he'd make a much nicer gelding than stallion. You can't tell he was gelded late.

I rode a cutting horse for an older gentleman, the horse was a breeding stallion but was cut when he was 10 years old. He had bit the previous owners ear off while she was trying to live cover a mare by herself. She had him gelded and sold him on. The older man was showing him and the horse would try to mount mares in the warm up pen. 
I think the issue more than anything was lack of good handling as a breeding stallion and it carried over even though he was gelded.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

There are no generalities. Key, my project OTTB from last summer, was gelded when he was 5, I rode him when he was 6, and he's one of the most adorable, sweet horses I know. If you have a horse with certain training issues, why it has those issues is neither here nor there and in the vast majority of cases has no impact on how you address them.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I got a horse who was gelding at 7, wasn't even halter broke really. He was the nicest guy. Within a year, he was started over fences and was sold on to a 13yr pony club rider. Very chill and quiet. 

It can make a difference if they've been allowed to breed and act studdy, but otherwise, no. It won't make much of a difference, especially for an older horse like Chase. He's already had a second career and everything. You just need to learn how to handle him and don't look for excuses as to why he's more difficult for you.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

If gelding a stallion late makes them more aggressive/dominant, then we should have _the_ gelding in our barn. A former show horse and stud, he was gelded really late - in his late teens. Now he enjoys his mixed herd, without studdy behavior. He knows exactly what he wants in his herd environment (as he was turned out with geldings even as a stallion), but as soon as humans are around, he is the perfect horse. Very respectful and mannerly. If he would have been any less than very well behaved, he would have lost some bits much earlier!

One could think he got mellow due to his age, but as soon as he is under saddle, he is the former show stallion again


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have gelded both early and late (stallions a 7+ years). The stallions who were older and had been used for breeding, tended to stay "studly" in that they kept an eye on their girls and ran the herd the way a stallion would, minus mounting & breeding the mares. Other than that, they've been nice quiet boys, just like they were as stallions.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As others have said, it's more about their _experiences_ before being cut. If they were allowed to breed mares & 'rule' a herd, then they'll likely behave the same way(often but not always minus mounting) with *horses*, but hopefully they learned acceptable, 'respectful' behaviour with people from scratch, so shouldn't be any different there either. I would have thought you'd had him long enough to have a good idea about his personality & behaviour by now? So are you asking because of a particular issue or something?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I also don't consider 3 to be "late" I mean it's older for sure but there are plenty of horses gelded after a life of being intact and maybe even breeding.

As said, it depends. There are also geldings that act studdy. It may be a factor it may not be. One of the things I've noticed more with "x-stallions" (see, at 3 not even a stallion just a colt aka baby still) is studdy behavior, not energy or handling but just stallion things that have become habit like pooping on top of other poop, or herding the mares, etc. Definitely haven't noticed any real changes with how they are with people, but I would expect a stallion to be good with people too.

Someone made the comment this horse is older too, if so, that's less likely to be the case. A horse that was say a breeding stallion until 10 gelded then and is 12 and kept in the same situation is more likely to be studdy then a horse that was gelded young, just slightly older then the norm, has had a long life as a good citizen and is now in his teens or whatnot. TBH most intact 3 year olds I've worked with haven't been studdy, they don't know enough yet!

If you are looking for an excuse for behavior, it's irrelevant, like I said above even if he was a breeding stallion he should be expected to behave. Plus, good nature is vital in a breeding horse, most of the studs I've worked with were able to be handled by children (in fact were better with children then adults lol). The one I worked with who was difficult was gelded, and he was difficult because he was 5 and largely unhandled vs being a stud (he knew he was "special" he just hadn't figured out why yet +17hh horse..yeah) while gelding was the right thing to do it wasn't his problem nor was his temperament poor, he was sweet just difficult.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Vets are making money on this assumption (IMO) as they are getting more calls for testing because, well, you know, the vet that gelded must have missed something. Horses are like children. They all have distinct personalities and are a reflection of the way they were raised and there life experience. 

I have the entire range here from early gelded, late, later and stallion. The early gelded is the most aggressive, studdy horse. He has still been raised to behave and respect humans. I worry if I sell him (any horse really) into the hands of a an inexperienced horse person that he'll become the horse from hades. 

We can all offer advice and give you our solutions but if there isn't long term experienced help like a solid trainer on hand and actively being paid to work with you and your horse then the likelyhood of injury escalates as his attitude deteriorates.

I wondered if that trainer was basically a stop gap during the holidays when there was time to spend. I can't imagine an established trainer having every afternoon free to spend working a new horse/with a new student. Their slots are typically full.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Meant to add for all the testing it is rare for them to find any reason other than poor handling and a lack of training or too much horse for the owner's experience level.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Its not that I had problems I thought may be related I'm just wondering lol

The new trainer is coming this Saturday to ride and evaluate Chase and the schedule will start next weekend


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

I rode a well-mannered stud, who became a well-mannered gelding at 17 years of age. 

Only "lasting effect" of being gelded so late was a cresty neck and more pronounced jowl.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Knew an OTTB that was later used as a stud. He got kicked in the family jewels and had to be gelded to save his life. I think Prince was like... 7? 9?ish? After that, the family that owned him had no use for them - they didn't ride, they bred race horses.


They gave him to my husband's friend, the guy who gave us Supes. Friend is a cousin of theirs and lived, at the time, less than a quarter of a mile from their breeding farm. Prince was perfect gentleman, except if you let him intimidate you, he'd punk you out by standing a little too close, shift his weight and subtly move closer... until he had you squeezed against the trailer or a fence... that person was usually me. He thought it was funny. #Horsehumor


I was maybe 19 or 20 at the time.


Prince became a cattle pushing, hog hunting, roping horse and our friend was heartbroken when Prince passed away.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I've had several horses gelded late, some were breeding stallions before gelding, too. I don't see any correlation in age of gelding and personality, other than some geldings will still try to mount receptive mares.

That being said, the worst stud-acting gelding I've seen was gelded as a yearling. 

I think 'late gelding' is a term that people use to justify behavior/training issues rather than correcting them. Similar to the 'sorry about that, he's a rescue' thing in dogs, where 'rescues' apparently have a free pass these days on basic manners. *pet peeve*


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## MouseZ (Aug 16, 2011)

I say it’s a mix of predisposition and how the horse was treated as a stallion. Fancy breeder barn where he’s kept pent up and anyway from other horses and lives a pretty unnatural life? Probably gonna have issues, gelded or not.

My gelding was gelded at 10 (as a curly he had a few breeding years) but he lived in a pasture, was allowed to live cover, and wasn’t separated from his foals. He’s very much a daddy horse now, gentle as a lamb and always first pick to be pastured with minis because of his disposition. 

The only time I’ve seen him display stallion attitude or aggression was when an intact stallion was brought in the breed some of the mates in “Andee’s herd” (though the herd was run by a dominant mare, Andee didn’t like the smell of that stallion one bit). Otherwise, you’d be shocked to know he was a stallion until 10.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

All these horses were gelded in their teens, and this is a film of a newbie (bay with blaze and socks) meeting our other two ex-stallions last year, Day One. They're all a bit dramatic and operatic, part of the legacy of being solitary stallions until their teens, but live just fine in their little herd, which includes five donkeys.






My riding horse Sunsmart is on the left; the chestnut, Chasseur, is 25. All of them are ex-racers, and I've worked with them since they were born, owing to having parents into this kind of thing. Horses actively engaged in racing are kept entire more often than riding horses, and those that are gelded are often gelded a little later to allow them to develop their secondary sexual characteristics - in particular, a broad chest, associated advantages for lung capacity and front-end strength, and less problems with gait interference around the curves of a racetrack - especially important for harness racing horses. Stallions do usually have extra oomph when racing, both physically and mentally - testosterone is ultra helpful for muscle development, recovery etc etc and produces extra aggression, assertiveness and "fight". Racing stallions and alpha mares (which generally have higher testosterone levels than other mares or geldings) frequently pin their ears flat back and make "mean" faces, sometimes even baring their teeth, when overtaking another horse in a race, or when fending off a challenger - we've not seen this in any geldings, or run-of-the-mill mares.

As they mature, stallions become heavier than geldings, and increasingly, with some of the modern STB lines, this extra weight then places them at a disadvantage compared to geldings - generally at age 4 or 5, but can be earlier depending on the line. You can see a similar effect with beef cattle, which are also bred to mature early, and to be kill weight by age two (the same age a lot of TBs and STBs start racing). Cattle can live well into their teens under favourable circumstances, but breeding bulls are generally starting to break down physically at age 7 or 8 because of their colossal weights at maturity - they end up with foot and shoulder problems, arthritis etc. These animals as a breed are bred for their characteristics at a very young age, rather than their characteristics at maturity - and a similar thing is happening with racehorses due to the money in racing horses aged 2 and 3.

Out of the three horses in the clip, one was too heavy to race at maturity - Sunsmart, on the left - he's by a US champion stallion that had to retire before age four due to injury, and was very heavily built (and arthritic) when mature - but made a mass of money before that, because of his fast-growing frame, long legs and general size compared to other youngsters. Julian (with the blaze) is by the same stallion, but took more after his dam, and raced until age 12. Thankfully, none of these three have significant arthritis (and none were raced at 2 or 3 on principle).

The temperaments of our "late geldings" remain more assertive than those of early-gelded horses. You can take away the testosterone, but not the brain connections (of course, the brain has plasticity, and continues to make new connections when used). The reduction in testosterone post-gelding means none of these horses raise an eyebrow at mares in heat anymore, and are much less aggressive than they were, but they're still very assertive. All of them are a pleasure to work with - and significantly easier to manage as geldings, for the usual reasons.

The stallion herding instinct remains strong - here's a clip of Sunsmart with cattle the year he started running in the same paddock as them:






Personally, from an animal welfare perspective, I prefer non-breeding animals to be gelded, at the very least upon retirement from competition. That way, they can enjoy living in a (non-breeding) herd. Horses are social animals, and I've seen too many sad things when horses are kept alone.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I took on a stallion that was 8 and was gelded because he was too aggressive to be considered safe. It took a few months for the testosterone to reduce and once that happened he was as easy to deal with as any early cut gelding. 
I don't think it helped that he hadn't been handled very well as a stallion.
I've worked with stallions that were as easy as geldings but it was more because they were 'born that way' rather than correct handling as one of them was used in a riding school and handled mostly by young people


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## MouseZ (Aug 16, 2011)

SueC - beautiful animals you’ve got there!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Thank you, @MouseZ.  I am really happy to be in a position to retire my old buddies in this manner. They weren't my horses to begin with, but I grew up with them all. My husband and I rather fortuitously came across a farmlet we could afford with our means back in 2010, and the pasture space meant we could retire three or four horses (any more would wreck the place, horses are really hard on the fragile Australian soil, especially this lot who are always running and doing high-jinks - and we also run beef cattle for business reasons). The oldest one, aged 34 and not in that clip, essentially lives in the garden now most of the time, because the evergreen lawn suits him and gets him through the summer drought.



It's a really happy feeling. I hate it when social animals are kept isolated. I remember when each of those three used to pace up and down their individual sand runs gnashing their teeth, or stand bored in various corners. Life didn't have much to offer for them - before retirement from racing, at least they had regular work and diversion. But to see how they have blossomed with a free-range, social lifestyle, where they can graze whenever they want, choose how to spend their days and with whom, make real choices all day long full stop - it just fills me with joy. And the horses are never bored, or pacing around gnashing their teeth, etc, anymore.

Julian came to us just over a year ago. He was morose and grumpy before he came here, and attacking people and horses over his electric fence. Now he has a default happy expression, and is forever crinkling his eyes in pleasure at things - plus he's become ultra affectionate, when he used to be very standoffish (as Sunsmart was before I took him on for saddle re-education in 2009). Mr "Don't Touch Me" is now coming up to me several times a day when I'm out and about on the farm just to hang out, chinwag, exchange a few scratches.  Same pattern as Sunsmart - he was like that too.











Plus, Julian is increasingly tagging along on my on-farm rides along the bush tracks in our 50ha on-farm conservation reserve, under his own steam. He loves to explore the world and is making up for lost time!


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## MouseZ (Aug 16, 2011)

@SueC you’re living the dream! 

I’m trying to buy an acreage here in Canada but they are so over priced and with so little land. It’s quite sad actually  maybe one day


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## ValerieR (Jun 28, 2018)

That answer has less to do with the fact that he was a stud until he was three and more to do with how he has been brought up until he was three. I've handled some geldings who were cut young and still absolutely the worst behaved, most miserable animals to be around I've come into contact in 20 years of horses. On the contrary, I personally own a gelding who was kept a stud and bred 10+ times until he was gelded at 9 and he is the most dog gentle, wonderful, respectful horse I've ever been around. He was shown by an 8 year old and then retired to get climbed all over by my 5 and 7 year old nephews. Studs are just horses. Hormones play a role but are not the determinant of future behavior if they're raised right.


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