# After my first lesson...



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok! You're braver than I!!!! Good on you for posting a vid!

Two things that really stood out for me were:

1. Your stirrups are probably one or two holes too short, it's pushing your leg uP and rolling you onto your tush.....which is locking your pelvis and pushing your belly out.

2. And, your elbow seems locked, therefore locking your hands. Which is probably exacerbating your guys fiddling with the bit. I would either put a nose band on him (not for gaping) to get him to quit playing with the bit in such a distracting way OR I'd find a bit that quiets his mouth down!

Hope I didn't tear you apart!!:lol:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

First of all, let me say I adore your [email protected]! what a very nicely built horse and the way he walks out, so evenly and with committment. he's a keeper!

you are not being well situated by that saddle. I know you don't want to hear that, but you are way back agains the cantle, and it's putting you a good 4 to 5 inches TOO far back. it makes you sit in a chair seat and it puts you behind his center of gravity and getting a bit too far back on the weight bearing portion of his back. 
It also puts you behind the motion and makes it harder for you to keep a soft, following hand. I don't think you are doing too badly in that dept, only that in order to do that, you ended up at times canted forward, and thus have a week core. 

If you must stick with that saddle, get a Cashel product called a "saddle shrinker" it will bring the cantle an inch or so closer to the pommel and help get your seat bones more in the middle of the saddle.



As for the bit and his softening and accepting it. it helps for a horse that is anxious about contact to give him times where he has none. So, he's on contact for a bit, then you allow him to stretch downward and walk on a loose rein. Pick up the rein slowly (gather it in rythm with his stepping such that you neither speed him up nor slow him down). Ask him to flex to it and carry his own head (not resting or resisting on the bit) and if he gives you a nice light flex, reward him with a stretch down on a loose rein. 

Practice taking up the rein , asking for him to accept contact, flex to it and get light off the bit (not coming so much off that he comes BEHIND it, tho.), then reward with a loose rein. After a bit, you will reward with a looser rein, but you will maintian a soft contact as he stretchs downward, you still following, and then you ask him to step even bigger into that low rein. Long and Low. a great training excersize.

As for your hand, be really sure that you don't try to force him down by lowering your hands to "pull" him down. this is so very, very common and only results in a horse that resists even more. keep your elbow , wrist, bit line very straight (including your wrists, whch I saw cocked a few times). if you want to suggest that the horse lower his head, you can softly tickle with the inside rein , and if he lowers his head, you follow him down. If he comes back up ,. you do to. IF he giraffes above the bit, you raise your hands, too. He won't like that, and he'll likely look for a way out of that. the way out is for him to lower his head, and when he does, you be super quick to reward him. but never try to get himto lower his head by artificially lowering YOUR hands and pulling downward.

All in all, worry less about where his head is and if you want to build his ability to accept the bit, start out by making it for short periods of time with plenty of breaks.

I see a nice pair and a lot of potential!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Ok! You're braver than I!!!! Good on you for posting a vid!
> 
> Two things that really stood out for me were:
> 
> ...



Lol I haven't even watched the video myself yet - the stills I took out of it were enough for me to cringe when I was looking at it! I know some of the things to look for now, so it's difficult to see myself ride. I just know it all feels wrong!

I'm having a hard time with the stirrups because I'm trying to figure out how to get my ear, shoulder, hips, and heel to line up. We talked about it with the other saddle I'm using, so I'm curious to see what my instructor will say about this saddle. I was taught to ride in a "chair" position, which is evident in this video despite my efforts to get my body in the right positions. Plus, I'll need to post at the trot, so I'm trying to set myself up for a correct position with control. In the meantime, I'll lower my stirrups a few more holes and see what happens...

He does have a drop noseband on him for the first time in this video, though not very tight. I've never used one before, so again, I'm not sure if I got it quite right. I'm sure my hands aren't helping, so I'll keep the "locked elbow" in mind, though I'm not quite sure what that means and what I'm supposed to do to fix it. But it is noted 

I'm really going to try to give this bit a shot since I've gone through a few bits, but I'll keep looking if there's no improvement. I think a lot of it has to do with my hands as you mentioned. I was raised neck reining, so this whole "on the bit" idea is very mysterious and strange to me since I've never really ridden with contact, and it was probably incorrect when I did.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, I love your horse! You too look great together. Your shoulders aren't relaxed, thus causing you to arch your back, and as your instructor mention, means you can't get your seat deep enough to encourage him forward. I sometimes see you thinking about it, take the arch out and your horse starts to limber up. Your hands, legs and elbows all need tweaking, but looks like it will come together for you quickly with some instructor. Excellent vid, thanks for posting.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> Lol I haven't even watched the video myself yet - the stills I took out of it were enough for me to cringe when I was looking at it! I know some of the things to look for now, so it's difficult to see myself ride. I just know it all feels wrong!
> 
> I'm having a hard time with the stirrups because I'm trying to figure out how to get my ear, shoulder, hips, and heel to line up. We talked about it with the other saddle I'm using, so I'm curious to see what my instructor will say about this saddle. I was taught to ride in a "chair" position, which is evident in this video despite my efforts to get my body in the right positions. Plus, I'll need to post at the trot, so I'm trying to set myself up for a correct position with control. In the meantime, I'll lower my stirrups a few more holes and see what happens...
> 
> ...


Yes, drop your stirrups, and you need to try to sit on the knuckles of your groin (sounds painful put that way!!!) so imagine standing straight and slightly bending your knees while your shoulder, hip and heel stay aligned (look at some picture of dressage riders, you will see they are not actually sitting on their tush) Also the elbow, what I mean is it's not relaxed, try to bring your hands forward and down and make a straight line between your elbow, rein and bit. See how that feels for you and keep us updated


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> First of all, let me say I adore your [email protected]! what a very nicely built horse and the way he walks out, so evenly and with committment. he's a keeper!


Thank you! I'm not sure how I ended up with such a great horse because I really didn't know what I was doing at the time when I purchased him, but something about him stayed in my mind and I had to have it. Still can't explain it lol. I keep hearing how nice of a horse he is, though, so thanks for being specific and telling he _why_ he's a nice horse! haha



tinyliny said:


> you are not being well situated by that saddle. I know you don't want to hear that, but you are way back agains the cantle, and it's putting you a good 4 to 5 inches TOO far back. it makes you sit in a chair seat and it puts you behind his center of gravity and getting a bit too far back on the weight bearing portion of his back.
> It also puts you behind the motion and makes it harder for you to keep a soft, following hand. I don't think you are doing too badly in that dept, only that in order to do that, you ended up at times canted forward, and thus have a week core.
> 
> If you must stick with that saddle, get a Cashel product called a "saddle shrinker" it will bring the cantle an inch or so closer to the pommel and help get your seat bones more in the middle of the saddle.


I'm still trying to make sure it fits him, but it's looking promising. If it does fit, then it's staying. I LOVE the "saddle shrinker", though, and it'll probably be my next purchase if it does work. Can you translate "canted forward" for me? I think I know what you mean, but am not familiar with the term.





tinyliny said:


> As for the bit and his softening and accepting it. it helps for a horse that is anxious about contact to give him times where he has none. So, he's on contact for a bit, then you allow him to stretch downward and walk on a loose rein. Pick up the rein slowly (gather it in rythm with his stepping such that you neither speed him up nor slow him down). Ask him to flex to it and carry his own head (not resting or resisting on the bit) and if he gives you a nice light flex, reward him with a stretch down on a loose rein.
> 
> Practice taking up the rein , asking for him to accept contact, flex to it and get light off the bit (not coming so much off that he comes BEHIND it, tho.), then reward with a loose rein. After a bit, you will reward with a looser rein, but you will maintian a soft contact as he stretchs downward, you still following, and then you ask him to step even bigger into that low rein. Long and Low. a great training excersize.


This sounds great and like it would really benefit us. A lot of my first lesson was just feeling each other (me, my instructor, and my horse) out and seeing where we're starting from. I'll ask my instructor about this to make sure I'm doing it correctly.



tinyliny said:


> As for your hand, be really sure that you don't try to force him down by lowering your hands to "pull" him down. this is so very, very common and only results in a horse that resists even more. keep your elbow , wrist, bit line very straight (including your wrists, whch I saw cocked a few times). if you want to suggest that the horse lower his head, you can softly tickle with the inside rein , and if he lowers his head, you follow him down. If he comes back up ,. you do to. IF he giraffes above the bit, you raise your hands, too. He won't like that, and he'll likely look for a way out of that. the way out is for him to lower his head, and when he does, you be super quick to reward him. but never try to get himto lower his head by artificially lowering YOUR hands and pulling downward.


This is a bad habit carried over from how I was raised to ride :S I'm still figuring out where my hands should be and what movement is good or bad, so I tend to either be too rigid or my hands are all over the place. Thanks for sorting that out some.



tinyliny said:


> All in all, worry less about where his head is and if you want to build his ability to accept the bit, start out by making it for short periods of time with plenty of breaks.


To be honest, I wasn't so worried about his head as trying to keep my hands in the right position and steady. This was something we worked on in our lesson - we I was keeping my outside hand steady and it allowed me to anchor myself as well as provide consistency for Snickers. It made a huge difference almost immediately, and we were doing half-halts with the inside rein to which he was bending and giving pretty well and even quieted down on the bit. However, I failed to duplicate that here as you can see! Since I can't yet do whatever it was we were doing in the lesson on my own, I'll take this approach to hopefully make our rides a little more enjoyable until my next lesson.



tinyliny said:


> I see a nice pair and a lot of potential!


Thanks - that really helps! I sure hope we can start working like a pair soon!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Yes, I love your horse! You too look great together. Your shoulders aren't relaxed, thus causing you to arch your back, and as your instructor mention, means you can't get your seat deep enough to encourage him forward. I sometimes see you thinking about it, take the arch out and your horse starts to limber up. Your hands, legs and elbows all need tweaking, but looks like it will come together for you quickly with some instructor. Excellent vid, thanks for posting.


Thanks for the compliments! My instructor said I was getting tense, causing him to get tense and speed up, which causes me to get more tense, and then we get into this uncomfortable cycle (which is why I'm not even trying to trot right now). I didn't think about my shoulders, though, as I was more focused on my legs. I can see now that there are a few things that I'm doing that are causing everything else to get out of whack. I do feel like just about everything I'm doing needs to at least be tweaked, which is overwhelming right now, but I'm sure it'll come with time!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Yes, drop your stirrups, and you need to try to sit on the knuckles of your groin (sounds painful put that way!!!) so imagine standing straight and slightly bending your knees while your shoulder, hip and heel stay aligned (look at some picture of dressage riders, you will see they are not actually sitting on their tush) Also the elbow, what I mean is it's not relaxed, try to bring your hands forward and down and make a straight line between your elbow, rein and bit. See how that feels for you and keep us updated


Ok I'll drop them down and see how that helps. I get the concept of where I'm supposed to be and what it's supposed to look like, at least, but cannot yet feel it. I thought my heel was at least _close_ to where it was supposed to be, though probably a little forward, so I was shocked when I saw the video!

I think I get really focused and start worrying about all these other things, I forget that I do actually have movable joints in my arm. My instructor mentioned this also haha. The image of the straight line does help, so I'll try to pay attention to that next time I ride.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> Ok I'll drop them down and see how that helps. I get the concept of where I'm supposed to be and what it's supposed to look like, at least, but cannot yet feel it. I thought my heel was at least _close_ to where it was supposed to be, though probably a little forward, so I was shocked when I saw the video!
> 
> I think I get really focused and start worrying about all these other things, I forget that I do actually have movable joints in my arm. My instructor mentioned this also haha. The image of the straight line does help, so I'll try to pay attention to that next time I ride.


Yup! And another thing you can do is let your horse walk and intentionally make your pelvis move with him, let it roll back and forth, even if it's not subtle and obvious it better than having it locked. It makes a huge difference and really helps with using your seat to cue your horse. Once you learn to release your pelvis all kinds of things fall in place, and with longer stirrups and a straighter shoulder, hip, heel you will find releasing the pelvis very easy to do


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Yup! And another thing you can do is let your horse walk and intentionally make your pelvis move with him, let it roll back and forth, even if it's not subtle and obvious it better than having it locked. It makes a huge difference and really helps with using your seat to cue your horse. Once you learn to release your pelvis all kinds of things fall in place, and with longer stirrups and a straighter shoulder, hip, heel you will find releasing the pelvis very easy to do


Sounds great! I'm starting to feel a bit better about our next ride haha. It's great to have some directions to go!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I should mention that he is my endurance horse - we're adjusting pretty much everything since he ended up after a ride or two last year and so I called our season quits and let him heal while I figured out what our next steps would be....

#1 - get a saddle that fits

#2 - make sure he's carrying himself correctly

and

#3 - make sure I'm riding him correctly

These lessons are helping with all three since I have another eye to improve my riding as well as make sure all our tack is finally working the way it should


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

All the things that you mentioned you are struggling with and working on are all perfectly normal things that every rider goes through, and the fact that you are aware of them, and feeling out what works, (such as the steady rein on the outside), speaks highly of you as a horsewoman and a willing learner. I wish the very best, and expect much.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> All the things that you mentioned you are struggling with and working on are all perfectly normal things that every rider goes through, and the fact that you are aware of them, and feeling out what works, (such as the steady rein on the outside), speaks highly of you as a horsewoman and a willing learner. I wish the very best, and expect much.


Thank you  It's just so hard to go all these years knowing how to ride (hey, I won quite a few awards *in 4-H*!), and then feel like I've gotten the rug pulled out from under me, however politely it was pulled. There are so many habits to fix, sometimes I'm not sure where to start! Especially since this is a teamwork thing, and all these things need to flow together to help us work together. I feel like a mess!

But, I know it'll come with time. I'm going through growing pains right now, that's for sure. I miss being able to just enjoy riding! However, I know it'll be so much better once we come through this on the other side with proper riding and teamwork.

Thank you for the good wishes - I'll be sure to update when I have something to show!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The thing I noticed around 0300 minutes, was whenever your hands went too low, your horse resisted. I like how your hands are more forward and have a straighter line to the bit earlier in the video. Looks like she talked you out of that rein length arrangement and they ended up too low and too long. Just put them out over the withers and for now overdo the following motion with your elbows until you settle into that sweet spot of consistent contact. 

Just remember, horse's don't read clocks or calendars. It will come when it comes.


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## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

I didnt read all the replies, but does anyone notice that the cinch is waaayyy to far back???
It should be behind the shoulder.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Charley horse said:


> I didnt read all the replies, but does anyone notice that the cinch is waaayyy to far back???
> It should be behind the shoulder.


That's because it's center fire rigging - it frees up the movement in the shoulder and eliminates interference and is popular amongst endurance riders. I'm new to using it, though, and it did seem farther back than it needed to be. I'm going to be be having someone more experienced than I coming out to check the saddle for fit and helping me figure it out, and then I'll need to decide if I want to use the center-fire rigging or the 5/8ths rigging. Either way, that cinch is going to be farther back than "typical" because I want it well out of the way of his movement.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

It did seem to move a little farther back after the ride in the video, but this is how it's supposed to be rigged if I choose to use center-fire:


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> The thing I noticed around 0300 minutes, was whenever your hands went too low, your horse resisted. I like how your hands are more forward and have a straighter line to the bit earlier in the video. Looks like she talked you out of that rein length arrangement and they ended up too low and too long. Just put them out over the withers and for now overdo the following motion with your elbows until you settle into that sweet spot of consistent contact.
> 
> Just remember, horse's don't read clocks or calendars. It will come when it comes.


Thanks for pointing that out - I can see what you mean now. I honestly don't know where to put my hands and arms right now and what movement is ok - at least my instructor will hopefully be coming out again this Saturday for a lesson. Until then, I'll try to do what you're recommending


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Just a reminder, the voice in the video is NOT my instructor, but rather my friend/boarder. My instructor will hopefully be coming out this weekend for our second lesson.


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## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> That's because it's center fire rigging - it frees up the movement in the shoulder and eliminates interference and is popular amongst endurance riders. I'm new to using it, though, and it did seem farther back than it needed to be. I'm going to be be having someone more experienced than I coming out to check the saddle for fit and helping me figure it out, and then I'll need to decide if I want to use the center-fire rigging or the 5/8ths rigging. Either way, that cinch is going to be farther back than "typical" because I want it well out of the way of his movement.


Okay, ty I never knew about a center fire rigging..


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Take this with a grain of salt because I'm so late in responding!!

I'm trying to figure out (haven't read other replies) WHY your horse was being so lovely in the first 5 seconds and then after you "checked" on her.. he began to fight with your hands a bit.

I'm going to suggest this is due to you "interferring" with something that was fine as is. I hope that didn't come across rude.. just puzzling to me.

For the most part you follow the horse nicely.. your hands drop too low at times, almost forcing your horse to put its head farther down. 

I think you need to sit up, shoulders back, and stop watching your horse as you ride. This is throwing you slightly off balance, which is making things more difficult for your horse. 

Why are you turning with such a large open rein? I don't think (from my perspective) that is necessary. It seems like your horse may respond to leg aids or smaller rein aids. 

Otherwise not too shabby  I see potential for a better pair in there. You said you're taking lessons?

I like that you are gentle enough with your horse, and take time to plan where you will venture rather than yank at the last minute.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Nope, you're right on Sky.

I'll have to go back and watch the video again to see what you mean about the first 5 seconds, but here's our overall issue:

I can ask him to go different directions, stop, go, turn, etc. just fine. However, anytime I ask him to adjust how he's moving we run into issues. He's just a little overly alert as arabs can be lol. However, he hallows out his back, which contributed to a sore back after our endurance rides last year. I want to learn to ride better and want to teach him to carry himself correctly and be more refined in our riding technique and skills. I was trying to replicate what we did in our first lesson, but haven't been able to do so very well so I'm actually not going to really ride him until my instructor can make it back out. Unfortunately, our schedules and the weather haven't aligned, but we should be starting back up soon. I'm positive a lot of his bit issues are coming from my technique or lack thereof


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

jillybean19 said:


> I'll have to go back and watch the video again to see what you mean about the first 5 seconds, but here's our overall issue:
> 
> I can ask him to go different directions, stop, go, turn, etc. just fine. However, anytime I ask him to adjust how he's moving we run into issues. He's just a little overly alert as arabs can be lol. However, he hallows out his back, which contributed to a sore back after our endurance rides last year. I want to learn to ride better and want to teach him to carry himself correctly and be more refined in our riding technique and skills. I was trying to replicate what we did in our first lesson, but haven't been able to do so very well so I'm actually not going to really ride him until my instructor can make it back out. Unfortunately, our schedules and the weather haven't aligned, but we should be starting back up soon. I'm positive a lot of his bit issues are coming from my technique or lack thereof


I think with the help of your instructor, you shouldn't be too far off in getting him to a good place  Just watch that you aren't interfering by bending over slightly and looking at him. Watching where you are going is very helpful!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> ...I'm having a hard time with the stirrups because I'm trying to figure out how to get my ear, shoulder, hips, and heel to line up. We talked about it with the other saddle I'm using, so I'm curious to see what my instructor will say about this saddle. I was taught to ride in a "chair" position, which is evident in this video despite my efforts to get my body in the right positions...


For western riding: Outside of Western Pleasure, having a shoulder / hip / heel alignment isn't important. In many western disciplines, it is wrong. You won't see it much in reining, cutting, or riding horses outside of an arena.

The tree of a western saddle goes well behind the cantle. That means the center of the weight-distributing frame of the saddle is farther back than in an English saddle. It is pretty hard to get your weight way far back in most western saddles:










Second, western riding assumes a flexible lower back. This is a video I like about cantering, but riding is about MOTION, not sitting. If you move WITH the horse, you don't INTERFERE with the horse:






Third, how you distribute your weight depends in part on what you are asking the horse to do. If you want a more collected motion, or want to do a sharp turn, getting your weight back helps the horse. If you want to go fast in a straight line, getting it more forward helps. Since you hips stay in the same part of the saddle, you distribute your weight by moving shoulders or leg as needed. There is no one right position for your shoulders and legs. It depends on what you are doing and about to do.

Having a vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel is NOT right for all riding. Don't import a different style onto a western saddle. If you are on your pockets with your legs forward - the way the saddle encourages you to do it - your center of gravity will be at the center of the saddle tree. If you move with the horse, then that will work well for both of you.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm just going to pipe in here about the contact issues because there is a bunch of misinformation being strewn about on this thread.
First of all, lunging in side reins is going to be beneficial to getting the horse to accept the bit. And not floppy side reins, they need to have a nice contact to them, and be adjusted such that the horse will always be looking to the inside, regardless of anything.
Once you are in the saddle, your hands are actually *too busy*. They need to be either rooted onto the neck, holding onto the saddle pad or resting onto the saddle. Your reins need to be short enough that you have a good contact (a few lbs) and can steer and adjust without moving your hands. I know there are people who disagree with me about this - but our goal is to have the head and neck still in relation to the withers in all gaits. The only way to develop this is with a hand that does not follow the head or neck - but follows the withers. The big pumping motion you see by lots of riders trying to "follow the mouth" and "be soft" is actually more disruptive and incorrect than a hand which is too stiff. On the contrary, the way you are using your hand to pull down and be moving in that direction is putting too much pressure on the bars, and causing the gaping. However, if the horse raises the head, your hands must stay rooted to the neck/saddle pad/saddle and not move.

Once you can keep your hands still and in one place, then and only then can you take them other places. And that is also only once the horse is consistent in a contact.
If you keep moving your hands (yes, even under the guise of following the horse's mouth) you will create a hard mouthed horse who is ridden front to back. Every movement you make with your arm is an aid, and it rides the horse from front to back and desensitizes his mouth. Your arm does not move, your upper arm is a part of your upper body and your elbow should always be in contact with your sides, and as an extension your hands should be quietly following the wither, which is by all accounts relatively still as well.

Good luck!!

PS it is also very hard to develop a contact in the walk. The horse has an easier time coming into a contact in the trot and canter, and also play with transitions!!
Remember the hands do nothing unless you need an aid, just like the legs and the seat. Only ask for what you want if you mean it and otherwise be still


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> For western riding: Outside of Western Pleasure, having a shoulder / hip / heel alignment isn't important. In many western disciplines, it is wrong. You won't see it much in reining, cutting, or riding horses outside of an arena.
> 
> The tree of a western saddle goes well behind the cantle. That means the center of the weight-distributing frame of the saddle is farther back than in an English saddle. It is pretty hard to get your weight way far back in most western saddles:
> 
> ...


BSMS I just read your first line, shoulder, hip, heel is super important for reining too......just thought I'd let you know:wink:


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