# Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards?



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Not sure where to begin. No more treats. To gain respect I want you to start following her around in a large paddock or pasture. If you have snow, set out an armful then back away. She will go to the hay. Come around behind her but well out of kicking distance and when she is eating, begin walking briskly and wave your arms a little to get her to move. Stand at the hay a few seconds then walk away and allow her to return. Do this until she will keep both eyes on you and it gets difficult to get around behind her. When she will do this slump your shoulders and extend a hand, fingers down and see if she will greet you. If she keeps her nose and inch away you must wait until she touches you. Don't close the gap or you've given her the wrong message. When she touches turn and walk away and let her eat. Her reward is your departure. The entire exercise has told her that you hold a higher rank than her when you move her off her feed. You can do the same if theres grass. You are beginning to teach her respect. Horses do this all the time in a herd. You've seen horses squabble over hay. Who wins-the dominant one and on down the pecking order. Try this with the horse and pm me if you have any questions.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

kayhmk said:


> ...However, I think I ran into a huge trouble with her the longer our session lasted.
> 
> She has been worked in a way that she gets a click for reward as well as "loose" (removal of pressure). Either one on their own should be ok. Usually after a series of clicks, a treat. Well I didn't have any treats with me, so I mainly let her stand and took away the pressure as a reward. A click here and there, but as I'm not a clicker training person, it doesn't come naturally. She didn't see petting as a reward (tried).


These are the problems I see: thinking of the horse in a sort of mechanical) or computerized?) way, that you do something, and you should get the same result. Every time. You push a button, the thing happens.

But horses are living creatures, living in an ever-changing world. The "session" changes as time goes on. The situtation after ten minutes is not the same as when you first start out. What makes it different?

The second problem is along the same lines, the concept of "reward"--do horses even think of it in our terms? I don't think so. 

To me it's one of the most fascinating things about the human-equine relationship. We see in a narrow focus, through time; horses see nearly everything in a globe around them, in a compressed, strongly (but not absolutely) now-time. We expect food to be a "reward" because to us, predators, it is. Horses more or less expect food to be around them at all times. They graze and browse.

So what is this "reward"? I believe it's a shift in the whole circle of their now-environment: a time for pause, to taste and move the tongue, maybe to look around. They like the taste of the sweet; but we've all had horses who wouldn't take a treat. It's not a guaranteed reward.

I've been trying to work out WHY any of our training even works. I'm beginning to think it's because horses in general ENJOY the break, or mark, or poke, in their awareness; just the way we (or I, anyway) enjoy these moments when I'm entirely in One Time, or call it timelessness, and the sense I'm in connection with another species. Clicker training can be extremely effective, but like so many things, it's more effective when you allow it to happen, instead of trying to force it.

I guess my suggestion would be to ask yourself exactly WHAT you want your horse to do, and then try to think in her terms, of what would make this action seem like a good thing. If you THEN give the click, the click will still be associated with something "good."


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I use food rewards in my training quite a bit, but what you have described is what I call: Paying more attention to the food than to what we are doing. 

It is a careful balance between having your horse responsive and attentive, hoping for a "bonus reward" and having your horse _demanding_ a reward. If I feel that my horse might not do something without a treat, I take the treats away. My horses should do things because I asked, not because they are trying to get something out of me. If they are looking to get something from you ALL THE TIME that reverses the training, they are training you to do things for them, not learning to do things for you.

The type of horse you describe actually benefits from food reward training, but like I said before, it is a fine balance. If they are using the food to dominate you, and distract you from what you are doing in a lesson, it's time to change something. I would keep on as you did in the first lesson, when she starts to get pushy go just a little longer, so she doesn't learn that being pushy is a way to end a lesson, but also don't argue with her about it. Have an "if your going to be like that I'm not going to play with you" attitude and quit even if it's for just a few minutes.

My rule of thumb about food with horses is : *I'm in charge! *"Sure you can graze!...when I say so." "Yes, Have a cookie!...when I think you deserve it."


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## kayhmk (Jul 9, 2010)

First, argh and apologies on that typo ("no rewards", not "know rewards"... should focus on writing!). 

Second, thanks for all your input! 

On Saddlebag's advice: I don't see that helping. We were on a large paddock with snow on the ground and a few specific feeding places. One even on the ground right where we worked and after telling her "no eating, eyes on me", she didn't even try to stray away or eat. 

That greeting thing sounded interesting though. I think I should really work on it with my mare. Thinking about it, it could help with our attention issues and getting her to make the initiative. Really made me realise that usually I go to my horse in the end. 

Now if I could write, I think Fargosgirl's post is very much in the direction I would say.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the only reward a horse needs is a release of pressure. It is an instant connection in the brain of a horse. 

I also think food rewards only serve to make training more difficult and less consistent. I seldom have seen a treat or food reward that a horse even connected with the action that the person thought they were rewarding. A reward would have to come at the same instant as the good thing was done and the pressure was released. When a reward comes even 2 or 3 seconds after that, it only confuses the horse and distracts it from the attention it was paying to the handler or rider.

Early in my training career I tried various treats and reward systems and found none worked as well or got the good consistent end results as applying pressure and the release of that pressure at exactly the correct moments.

No one has ever been able to demonstrate to me that they made training easier by using treats. I have always been able to take the same horse and get better results AND a happier and more attentive horse using only pressure and release (usually taking less pressure). Plus, I never have had to deal with pushy horses looking for, or worse, demanding treats. They're NEVER very happy and always are applying the pressure when they should just be waiting and listening to you. [Think of the child whining for candy at the Super Market check-out stand.] That is what I see when I see a horse that has been rewarded with food treats.


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## kayhmk (Jul 9, 2010)

Cherie, I tend to agree with you! 

To tell you the truth, I'm in a bit of a positive/negative reinforcement dilemma at the moment. I guess this clicker training/food reward issue is pretty central to that... 

The only thing for which I'm currently using and seeing the logic of food rewards is stretching exercises. My greedy horse will work without fighting for a carrot despite her sore muscles.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Stretches comes under the heading of 'coaxing' to me. It can get a horse into a certain position (like the carrot stretches) and it works for some tricks. It is not very useful for actual training. JMHO


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## kayhmk (Jul 9, 2010)

Absolutely, I think it's more physiotherapy or general muscle care, not training. I guess some tricks, like 'begging' with front feet might be easy to teach with treats but not being a trick training sort of person, those are of no use to me.

... and that maybe sheds a light on my understanding and experience of the usefulness of food rewards.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

OP, I use both positive (CT) and negative rewards when I train. But I also keep those sessions separate and different. I like to use clicker training to teach the concept and I keep those sessions very short. I also use release of pressure in separate and longer sessions. I have only been doing this for 6 months so take this for the two cents its worth. 

1. If this horse has not done CT in a long time, you should only do the CT for 5 minutes to start. As the horse shows more endurance you can increase it. You can do many short sessions in a day. Stop on a good note. Reward often. Short and sweet. 

2.Once a horse show undesirable behaviors to get treats, your goal behavior now becomes the opposite of that pushy behavior. Is she in your space? You may need to just focus on backing out of your space. You may even need her behind a barrier and reward her when she looks away, for example, or is standing with head forward, ears forward, eyes forward. If you are worried she will bite, you must go back to basics and teach manners. Shortening the session may help since her pushiness may be from frustration. 

3. I use pressure/release for the majority (80%)of my training time and it is to practice what they know and understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Kayhmk. You need to approach from directly behind, well out of kicking range. Use a lunge whip if you have to an ramp up your energy. Use the whip to get her moving if you have to. Just don't get kicked. She didn't move, you quit and she won. If the lash landing on her rump doesn't work try the back legs. She needs to move off the pile, not race around the place. Keep moving in behind her and soon she'll want to hind her hiney. If she didn't move for a dominant horse she'd receive a nasty bite on the rump or above the hocks.


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## hkfarms (Jan 24, 2010)

I tried clicker training for a couple months with my, at the time, yearling. It wasn't what I wanted for our relationship. It got in the way of communication and train of thought for me, and as a result he became pushy and demanding. (he already was a pushy dominant type, and it intensified as we went along) I tried to ride it out and do as the clicker trainers suggest, but was unsuccessful.

Now that being said I can see where it could work. It just wasn't for me. I think horses think so much different than we do as predators and you have to be very careful how you use it and present it.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.

I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
The FIRST thing I teach all my CT horses is that the only way they'll ever get a treat is if all 4 feet are on the ground (unless I'm asking otherwise) and they're standing calmly a respectful distance away. I reinforce this skill Through ALL our work by only feeding them behind their chin so they have to move further out of my space in order to get their reward. My horses Never associate being in my space with anything positive, respectfully out of my space doing what I ask is what gets them their reward - Nothing Else!

Clicker training is a wonderful style that works wonders on many horses - but like Any style of training, done wrong can cause the horses to be bad. FOOD is a powerful motivator! Whatever they did that got rewarded with food they will do more and more and more and more extremely! If they invade your space and get food they're going to knock you down next time, if once they whinny, the next time they scream, if once the tap the wall, the next they're kicking it. Which is why they should Only be rewarded when doing the correct thing and Never be rewarded for anything rude or dangerous. 

Just like every style of training out there, there are people who do it poorly and give the whole style a bad rep. Yes ALL the styles can work, it's up to the trainer and horse which is the most effective for them. Please don't put down CT because a few lazy trainers who don't take the time to maintain respect.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

hkfarms said:


> I tried clicker training for a couple months with my, at the time, yearling. It wasn't what I wanted for our relationship. It got in the way of communication and train of thought for me, and as a result he became pushy and demanding. (he already was a pushy dominant type, and it intensified as we went along) I tried to ride it out and do as the clicker trainers suggest, but was unsuccessful.
> 
> Now that being said I can see where it could work. It just wasn't for me. I think horses think so much different than we do as predators and you have to be very careful how you use it and present it.


Have you ever been to a barn where there's one horse who kicks the wall at feeding time? Or a lesson program where lesson ponies knock their children down as soon as they see a carrot? This is because these tbehaviors have rewarded them in the past. Often humans feed the loudest ones first to shut them up - only further reinforcing their behavior. Food is a Powerful motivator for horses.
Unfortunately people use it so Very wrong. We use it to shut them up or calm them down when they're frantically galloping around their paddock people will toss them some hay so they'll quiet down. Now the horse has learned galloping frantically = hay.

When done correctly CT fixes pushy horses better than anything else I've seen. I run a rescue many horses come in pushy and rude, sometimes aggressive, especially around food. CT has got them all standing respectfully and backing up and waiting when it's time to dump their grain. 
Food is a powerful motivator...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

PunksTank said:


> I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.
> 
> I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
> That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
> ...


This question I have is that if you were doing ground work with a horse and asked them to do some manuever, which they did, and then they moved close to you, and then you backed them off in order to give them the food reward, aren't you only teaching them to back away from you? I mean, that is what they did that earned the reward, not the "manuever" you first had them do.


I give treats to my lease horse, but more or less randomly. When tacking up I give him on to distract him from the girthing irritation. I give him one after mounting (sometimes, not always) and when our ride is done, I give him one and loosen his girth for the brief walk downt he driveway. I am sure that my treat giving is not the best thing for him, but I tolerate any kind of mugging he may do, as he behaves well enough in most other respects.


My friend's horse is a bit pushy and in-your-face . when I work with him on the ground, his reward is that I set him well off away from me, lay the slack of the leadrope on the ground (a long line) and allow him to rest AWAY from me. when he is next to me, he will have to work. So, he will be happy to be out there waiting on me, but not pushing on me.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

*Cruel!*



Saddlebag said:


> Not sure where to begin. No more treats. To gain respect I want you to start following her around in a large paddock or pasture. If you have snow, set out an armful then back away. She will go to the hay. Come around behind her but well out of kicking distance and when she is eating, begin walking briskly and wave your arms a little to get her to move. Stand at the hay a few seconds then walk away and allow her to return. Do this until she will keep both eyes on you and it gets difficult to get around behind her. When she will do this slump your shoulders and extend a hand, fingers down and see if she will greet you. If she keeps her nose and inch away you must wait until she touches you. Don't close the gap or you've given her the wrong message. When she touches turn and walk away and let her eat. Her reward is your departure. The entire exercise has told her that you hold a higher rank than her when you move her off her feed. You can do the same if theres grass. You are beginning to teach her respect. Horses do this all the time in a herd. You've seen horses squabble over hay. Who wins-the dominant one and on down the pecking order. Try this with the horse and pm me if you have any questions.


 
WHY? I do not see any reason to use food as a training too. That is just cruel. Treats are completely different from something that is necessary to sustain their health and life.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have seen people do some good things with clicker training but its always my concern that it continues after the horse has learnt the exercise - same goes for the giving of treats as a reward, they become a habit and the horse expects one regardless
Does the horse see the 'click' as something thats going to be followed by a reward and so starts to demand a treat every time it hears a click or does it see its compliance as the reason for the reward?
I might give a treat as a one off reward for a learning thing but no more, mostly I tend to expect my horse to do what I ask and they get a pat or a 'good girl/boy' and that keeps them happy, they know they've done right
Horses are a lot like children, my kids didnt get rewarded for going to bed when told, picking up their stuff when told, coming home on time when told.......................its whats expected of them.


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## hkfarms (Jan 24, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> Have you ever been to a barn where there's one horse who kicks the wall at feeding time? Or a lesson program where lesson ponies knock their children down as soon as they see a carrot? This is because these tbehaviors have rewarded them in the past. Often humans feed the loudest ones first to shut them up - only further reinforcing their behavior. Food is a Powerful motivator for horses.
> Unfortunately people use it so Very wrong. We use it to shut them up or calm them down when they're frantically galloping around their paddock people will toss them some hay so they'll quiet down. Now the horse has learned galloping frantically = hay.
> 
> When done correctly CT fixes pushy horses better than anything else I've seen. I run a rescue many horses come in pushy and rude, sometimes aggressive, especially around food. CT has got them all standing respectfully and backing up and waiting when it's time to dump their grain.
> Food is a powerful motivator...


I am not against CT, if it works for you then great. It just was not for me.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I have seen people do some good things with clicker training but its always my concern that it continues after the horse has learnt the exercise - same goes for the giving of treats as a reward, they become a habit and the horse expects one regardless
> Does the horse see the 'click' as something thats going to be followed by a reward and so starts to demand a treat every time it hears a click or does it see its compliance as the reason for the reward?
> I might give a treat as a one off reward for a learning thing but no more, mostly I tend to expect my horse to do what I ask and they get a pat or a 'good girl/boy' and that keeps them happy, they know they've done right
> Horses are a lot like children, my kids didnt get rewarded for going to bed when told, picking up their stuff when told, coming home on time when told.......................its whats expected of them.


This is actually the essence of proper clicker training: once the horse knows what you expect, then it has to do more than that to get the click and treat. Properly done, the horse should not need (and especially not ask or demand) a treat when doing things that are already trained and not new. The click and treat enhance communication to teach the horse what you want when you want it, not just a reward for compliance because complaince should be expected.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> This is actually the essence of proper clicker training: once the horse knows what you expect, then it has to do more than that to get the click and treat. Properly done, the horse should not need (and especially not ask or demand) a treat when doing things that are already trained and not new. The click and treat enhance communication to teach the horse what you want when you want it, not just a reward for compliance because complaince should be expected.


 So would you stop using the clicker when that part of the training was learned and established?


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> So would you stop using the clicker when that part of the training was learned and established?


Yes and no. It depends how you look at it. One a horse understands (indicated by consistent and correct behavior with the clicker), then you add a little more. For example, when I was teaching my colt to pick up his feet, I started out by clicking as soon as he started lifting his feet at all. As soon as he understood that I was asking him to pick up his feet and was lifting them each time I asked, then he had to hold his foot there for a second or two before he got a click. Then, ten seconds, twenty seconds, thirty seconds, a minute, etc. Until I was able to clean the entire hoof. At this point, he doesn't get rewards for simply picking his hoof up, but he has to hold it there until I say so. Regardless of how long I asked him to hold his foot, he didn't get a click until I gave it back to him. If he fought with me, it was now clearly a matter of disrespect rather than confusion, so I dealt with it as such and got after him.

Then, he had to let me do two feet completely to get a click, then three, and finally four. He learned that he was goinng to have to wait longer and longer and be patient to get his click and treat, and then sometimes he didn't get a treat at all. However, he got in trouble if he acted up because he knew what was expected of him. Now, he doesn't get a click or treat at all because he knows what's expected and I deal with it how a "normal" trainer would i.e. getting after him and making him work until he decided to behave.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thanks for reply


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Another example is that I used to click for my horse when he stood still tied. As with all babies, this was an entirely new concept for him. I had to start clicking for any moment he paused, and then standing by him and extending the time, and finally moving away from him and clicking when he stayed still. Obviously, I no longer click for standing tied - it's expected that he's not going to freak out.

Riding is another excellent example where he really impressed me and surpassed my expectations. I did minimal clicker training when putting him under saddle as I was using a sidepull and was just applying the lessons from giving to the halter to being used while I was on his back. At first, he didn't know I wanted him to move when I was on him, so I had to click for a step or two forward. When he understood what I wanted (literally a few clicks later), i just applied pressure with the sidepull. He got the concept pretty quickly, so I only clicked a few times to reassure him that he understood that, but there was no point to keep "training" giving to the direct, so then I started teaching him to move off my leg, using the direct rein as a hint. He didnt get a click until he moved off my leg pressure, and now he's neck reining and on the verge of being able to ride bridleless. However, I took him on a poker ride in the midst of this. I didn't want to worry about training, but I brought the clicker and treats along just in case we ran into trouble (I have a fanny pack with treats). However, I didn't even use it once - we went over bridges, across culverts, and down narrow trails. All while dressed up for Halloween as a cow with horns and everything and having never been ridden off the property before and without a horse to lead the way. Now, a lot of that is just his personality, but I was very impressed at he didn't need the clicker once, but the training was there and was solid. (and he never asked for one, either)


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> This question I have is that if you were doing ground work with a horse and asked them to do some manuever, which they did, and then they moved close to you, and then you backed them off in order to give them the food reward, aren't you only teaching them to back away from you? I mean, that is what they did that earned the reward, not the "manuever" you first had them do.
> 
> 
> I give treats to my lease horse, but more or less randomly. When tacking up I give him on to distract him from the girthing irritation. I give him one after mounting (sometimes, not always) and when our ride is done, I give him one and loosen his girth for the brief walk downt he driveway. I am sure that my treat giving is not the best thing for him, but I tolerate any kind of mugging he may do, as he behaves well enough in most other respects.
> ...


This is an awesome question!! I struggled with this thought a bit too. But then in practice I realized it's not the treat that teaches the horse it's the click. Sure click=treat, but the click marks in their mind the correct action - the treat is just the reason why they want the click. So in the case of my mare who engulfed my whole hand to take the treat, nearly nibbling fingers, she had to learn not to. I would click for whatever we were working on (I think we were working on sidepassing at the time. She would hear the click and wait for her treat patiently, but if she reached for my hand with her mouth wide open I'd take it away. Sometimes I'd let her try again but typically just took it away. She still learned the sidepass - the click told her she did something right, but she didn't get the treat for being grabby. It didn't take her more than 2 or 3 lost treats to learn to use her lips to pick it up.
As for the question from someone else about "do you need to give them treats every time they do anything - NO! This is the biggest misconception! 
Every skill we teach our horses is built on another once they understand the beginnjng of a skill you just keep building only rewarding for the next step up.
So for example, teaching my pony to do his obstacle course. I started by teachinh hin to touch a crop target with his nose in his stall. Then he had to follow it around outside. He no longer needed to be clicked or treated when he touched it onky if he followed it. Then he needed to follow it over a jump at a walk, then trot, then a series of jumps, then around cones - now the whole course before he gets treats. You only need to reward what's new.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There are those who are proficient with clicker training have polite horses. And then there are those who think they are doing it correctly and make a mess of things. Arguing over whether one should use it or not simply creates a division. It should be seen as another training tool that may need to be used depending on the individual horse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Tinyliny, your question about moving the horse out of your space and what the reward then would teach. That is when you have to shift your thinking. If backing out of your space is rewarded (even if it's intention was for the maneuver you'd gotten) he will become more mindful of staying out of your space. If you do this consistantly a few times he'll learn that a treat just won't happen when he's in your space. The next time you ask for the maneuver, see how quickly he will get out of your space to get the reward when you click. The click is what teaches.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Beling said:


> To me it's one of the most fascinating things about the human-equine relationship. We see in a narrow focus, through time; horses see nearly everything in a globe around them, in a compressed, strongly (but not absolutely) now-time. We expect food to be a "reward" because to us, predators, it is. Horses more or less expect food to be around them at all times. They graze and browse.


I never thought of this before; huh, fascinating.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

hkfarms said:


> I am not against CT, if it works for you then great. It just was not for me.


And that's perfectly fine!! Don't get me wrong - By all means use the style _you_are most comfortable with. It's best for trainers to work with something they are comfortable with. I'm not trying to make anyone use CT if they don't want to - but I'm sick of hearing people make accusations (not you but others on here) about how horrible CT is, when in truth, it's just like all the other training styles (works when done right, terrible results when done wrong).


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Beling said:


> The second problem is along the same lines, the concept of "reward"--do horses even think of it in our terms? I don't think so.
> 
> To me it's one of the most fascinating things about the human-equine relationship. We see in a narrow focus, through time; horses see nearly everything in a globe around them, in a compressed, strongly (but not absolutely) now-time. We expect food to be a "reward" because to us, predators, it is. Horses more or less expect food to be around them at all times. They graze and browse.
> 
> ...


Let me clarify why any of this work - both traditional training and clicker training. They both function off of the same principals: operant conditioning. In fact, all behavior follows these rules and they are demonstrated scientifically over and over again.

Basically, operant conditioning says that we behave in certain ways because we expect a certain outcome to come of it. This was first demonstrated by B.F. Skinner with the "Skinner's Box" - he observed that a cat trapped in a box with a special "escape" device operated by a lever (if I remember correctly) would, by trying various methods, eventually figure out how to escape. The way to escape wasn't obvious to the cat, and the cat didn't make an immediate connection between pressing a lever and escaping. However, after a few trials, the cat did make the connection and pressed the lever in less time. Eventually, it pressed the lever as soon as it was put in the box, allowing it to escape. Even though it didn't necessarily make sense why pressing a lever would lead to escaping, the cat made a connection between a seemingly silly action and escaping, and so then began to do the action more with the expectation of escaping.

After further research, Skinner was able to demonstrate these same principles in other animals to teach them various skills. For instance, animals like pidgins and mice will press a lever or button to receive food. The theory of operational conditioning and subsequently behaviorism came four basic types of actions that can shape behavior:

Reinforcement: this is anything that causes a behavior to happen more often.
Type 1: positive (+) reinforcement means adding something that makes the behavior happen more often. This is clicker training, because the horse is given a treat (or other reward) when they do what we want.
Type 2: negative (-) reinforcement means taking something away and that makes the behavior happen more often. It is very important that you don't confuse the word "negative" to mean bad - think of it like subtracting something. This is traditional training - the pressure is removed, and the horse is "rewarded"

Punishment: this is anything that causes a behavior to happen less often
Type 1: Positive (+) punishment again means something is introduced, but it makes the behavior go away, such as a firm smack on the nose for nipping.
Type 2: Negative (-) punishment again means taking something away, but it makes the behavior go away. This doesn't have a clear application for the horse world as far as I can think of, but it's like getting the keys taken away for coming home too late.

As I stated above, ALL beings, from fish and lizards to birds, horses, and humans, are motivated by these rules. The only things that change are the motivator. Since food is a basic need, nearly all animals (it doesn't matter whether it's a predator or not) are motivated by it. If you'd like an example, I'm sure I can find a video of pigeons pecking frantically just to receive a piece of food (and they're not exactly "predators"). Sure, some animals are less motivated than others by food, but it generally works pretty well with horses. However, clicker training doesn't require food - it only requires that you pair a cue (like a click) with a reinforcement (whatever the horse will work for), and then use the cue to mark correct behavior (and generally follow it up with the reinforcement to make sure the cue keeps being associated with the reinforcement).


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

PunksTank - I think I'm getting better at explaining Psych 441:Learning!


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## Island Horselover (Apr 4, 2012)

Sorry I did not read all the other answers. But here my 2 cents: The situation you descriped is exactly why I do not use treats to train my horses! (And because it might get a bit expensive when you work with 7 diffrent horses a day :0)) Anyway, you should get a little bit more firm in your training, I like what you do with backing her up, make her move away from you to not be in your space and and and, but if she starts pawing with her feet or anything like that, put all your energy in backing her up, make her work hard to understand that this is not ok! She will understand eventually but she def. has to accept the fact that you are the leader in your relationship and with a pushy horse like that (at least it sounds like it) you need to be really firm, watch your body language, timing is a big thing - release at the right moment, correct the smallest thing she does that you think is not good, watch her ears and be ready at ALL TIMES to make her work, again make the good thing easy and the bad thing REALLY hard for the horse. I am sure you will fix this issue but it might take some time! Good luck!!!


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## kayhmk (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, very interesting stuff here about CT in general! I totally agree what was said earlier: people doing CT wrong (ie. getting stuck and rewarding already learned behaviour) is what turns many people off it without really testing/learning about it.

On the horse I talked about in the beginning of this topic: I recently found out that while on lease the people there didn't do CT (like I said) BUT they BRIBED the horse into doing things! This includes the basic stuff from leading to moving away. Explains a lot... 
On a happier note, she's transformed a lot since starting this thread. Gone is the "treat. NOW!" attitude.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

For the rest of the group, not just the OP. 

I was able to stop the treat mugging monster with CT. 
It's a tool, and you have to know how to use it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

PunksTank said:


> This is an awesome question!! I struggled with this thought a bit too. But then in practice I realized it's not the treat that teaches the horse it's the click. Sure click=treat, but the click marks in their mind the correct action - the treat is just the reason why they want the click. So in the case of my mare who engulfed my whole hand to take the treat, nearly nibbling fingers, she had to learn not to. I would click for whatever we were working on (I think we were working on sidepassing at the time. She would hear the click and wait for her treat patiently, but if she reached for my hand with her mouth wide open I'd take it away. Sometimes I'd let her try again but typically just took it away. She still learned the sidepass - the click told her she did something right, but she didn't get the treat for being grabby. It didn't take her more than 2 or 3 lost treats to learn to use her lips to pick it up.
> As for the question from someone else about "do you need to give them treats every time they do anything - NO! This is the biggest misconception!
> Every skill we teach our horses is built on another once they understand the beginnjng of a skill you just keep building only rewarding for the next step up.
> So for example, teaching my pony to do his obstacle course. I started by teachinh hin to touch a crop target with his nose in his stall. Then he had to follow it around outside. He no longer needed to be clicked or treated when he touched it onky if he followed it. Then he needed to follow it over a jump at a walk, then trot, then a series of jumps, then around cones - now the whole course before he gets treats. You only need to reward what's new.


 
very interesting!~ I 'd love to see your horse doing the obstacle course. do you have it on video?


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

aldebono said:


> For the rest of the group, not just the OP.
> 
> I was able to stop the treat mugging monster with CT.
> It's a tool, and you have to know how to use it.


A interesting thought occurred to me.... Everyone who's knocking clicker training has either never tried and/or never taken the time to understand how and why it works. Meanwhile those who have do supoort its use in situations other than just trick training. Yes, we do vary in how we apply its principles and how we combine it with other methods, but in the end, I haven't found anyone that actually tried it correctly with a horse that will tell you it's useless or creates problem horses. They may decide it's not their preferred method and even not to use it, but I think they would still agree that it's a useful tool for those that want to use it.

I'm fairly positive Budweiser uses clicker training in some form to train their horses. Watch one of their training videos on you tube and it's clear they understand and work for the "Goody Boy!" cue (in lieu of a clicker) and that it has been given some sort of positive and reinforcing meaning - and I highly doubt there's anyone that will claim the words "good boy" mean anything to a horse without being connected to a reinforcer. There is no pressure used in asking and training the horses, and, though I haven't found any videos of them actually presenting the reinforcer, I'm positive they've associated the "Good Boy" with something they want and will work for. I did read somewhere where someone wrote an article about watching the trainer using clicker training. Now, is there anyone here who will claim that the Budweiser trainers have poor horsemanship?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> very interesting!~ I 'd love to see your horse doing the obstacle course. do you have it on video?


Now that I think of it I don't! I usually record all my actual training sessions (for self evaluation xD) But I usually rest it on the fence and sense my 'ring' doesn't have a fence I haven't recorded anything I've done there. It's completely icey frozen moosh out there - so I can't bring him (or my jumps) out now  
I made my jumps myself  so they're pony sized xD
I have some pics from when he was learning though! In the spring I'll get some videos and post them!

My pony at the walking stage of his learning while he was still on lead, stinks the picture doesn't show the target he's reaching for:


















This is one of the young girls at the horse rescue I've taught to clicker train - a very wild pony. After months of work her pony will follow her around all sorts of crazy obstacles xD This is them learning ground poles:

















Those are just some xD


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Does she have a video on youtube? That last picture looks familiar. I swear I've seen a video of her working with that horse...


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> Does she have a video on youtube? That last picture looks familiar. I swear I've seen a video of her working with that horse...


I put a few videos I take up there for her to put on her facebook and everything - I think now she's made her own youtube thing.  So I wouldn't be surprised.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

honestly, i dont like clicker training. i have never seen it translate well in the saddle.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> honestly, i dont like clicker training. i have never seen it translate well in the saddle.


You must not have looked too far  Most clicker trained horses I know are the calmest and most responsive under saddle. I've only backed 2 horses using all CT, but have used it to better more than a few previously trained horses - particularly one Very ring-sour perch cross (would throw total fits just entering the ring).
This is not me, just a video I found on youtube -The mounted work starts around 1:20


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

what about actual riding, like dressage or jumping ? working the horse, not just playing around with it ?

i have two calm and great horses, both very talented, with out the use of clicker training, i am not convinced. one of my horses was not only on the leader board for multiple years in eventing, winning many many events, but can jump courses with no tack- not even a rope around the neck.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> what about actual riding, like dressage or jumping ? working the horse, not just playing around with it ?
> 
> i have two calm and great horses, both very talented, with out the use of clicker training, i am not convinced. one of my horses was not only on the leader board for multiple years in eventing, winning many many events, but can jump courses with no tack- not even a rope around the neck.


You don't need to use clicker training - no one is telling you you need to  in fact if you're that dead-set against it, it's probably better off you don't. CT requires just as much consistency, timing and practice as any other form of training. As with most things in life each goal can be met through several different pathways. CT is one of the paths you can take to riding a horse. It is not something to train - it's a style of teaching and learning, it can be used to teach anything.
If you're unsure of how it can be used for professional riding you should look into the Cavalia show, all their horses are trained with a form of positive reinforcement, even the dressage, vaulting and trick jumping horses. I use it to teach my pony unmounted agility, like dog agility, which is a sport in some countries  I just haven't found any local competitions for him xD
You could also look at the Budweiser Clydesdales who are also Clicker Trained. 
Anything a horse CAN learn, can be taught with CT. 

The reason you don't see many high level eventers or dressage riders using Clicker training is because they've spent years under professional training using more common-place training and riding styles. While CT is a very old style of training it's not yet commonly used (due to some negative stereotypes) and old horse people being stuck in their ways 
But if you look well enough you might spot a rider who uses CT even in the high levels  They're hard to notice though, because in the show you don't easily see how they're trained - just the results.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

every time i ask this question i never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' i am not 'dead set' against anything. i am actually pretty open about most training methods, but i have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. not any riding training that is useful. the people i know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and dont work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. over all, this is why i remain unconvinced. if CT worked so well i think you would see more people using it. jmo.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> every time i ask this question i never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' i am not 'dead set' against anything. i am actually pretty open about most training methods, but i have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. not any riding training that is useful. the people i know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and dont work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. over all, this is why i remain unconvinced. if CT worked so well i think you would see more people using it. jmo.


While I agree - I see too many unmotivated riders using CT and only half training their horses. There are many professionals who do. I don't think many of them come right out and say it though. But I think I was pretty straight forward when I mentioned Cavalia and the Clydesdales. Both of those are trained VERY useful skills. The Clydes drive incredibly well, especially in such large teams. The Cavalia horses do EVERYTHING - from regular tackless riding, to dressage (in pairs), to jumping, to trick jumping, to vaulting and so much more. It's my belief that Stacy Westfall uses a form of CT (or positive reinforcement) - but I don't know if she's ever come out and said it? I believe many professional riders who use CT wouldn't say it too loud due to the 'controversy'. So to say CT isn't used for anything useful is kind of closed minded IMO. 
CT can be used for anything. If you want to use it, you can use it to teach any skill mounted or otherwise, useful or otherwise. Don't limit your training to just what you've seen other people do. Just because most people limit CT to tricks (because tricks are fun!!) doesn't mean it needs to be limited to that. 

This person is a member of the forum, she's one of my idles ^^ I believe she even uses CT for reining, or at least that's what the video implies  I don't know if she's taken it professional or not.





This horse learned a simple version of Passage and Piaffe (granted it's unmounted in this video) - but you can see if someone wanted to they could easily use CT for dressage and take this skill under saddle.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> every time i ask this question i never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' i am not 'dead set' against anything. i am actually pretty open about most training methods, but i have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. not any riding training that is useful. the people i know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and dont work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. over all, this is why i remain unconvinced. if CT worked so well i think you would see more people using it. jmo.


A quick google search on professional riders who use clicker training found me this, from a professional clicker trainer:
"I know Jane Savoie uses clicker training some, and if you have
Facebook, you can see this photo of Sue Blinks doing target work with
Flim Flam

Facebook

Also, Beezie Madden has used it with her show jumpers.

Most of these people were introduced to it via Shawna Karrasch, who
uses it a bit differently, in some respects than Alex does. Most of
these upper level riders use it to sort our trouble spots in their
training, rather than incorporating it into everything they do. Still
it lends the technology a bit of credibility.

As to people claiming it's only parlour tricks..... well, that shows
they don't understand the concept. Alex has found ways to use it to
truly transform horses, and I use it as physiotherapy with some of
mine. We can thank Kay Laurence for the concept of Microshaping, which
Alex took even further, and can benefit many horses.

Conventional training, and the goals and values that govern it assume
that the horse MUST be in a bridle to achieve collection, to learn
lateral work, etc. Alex has shown us that shaping a horse to balance
his body is no different than shaping a dolphin to swim through a
hoop. It can be done without physical manipulation. When training
exclusively with negative reinforcement and punishment, in the form of
rein contact, rider weight and rider legs, one doesn't have other
tools available to show the horse how he can organize his body.

Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
about it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
Eventually, the people notice our horse is actually doing pretty well,
or else they have moved on and forgotten about us completely.

Cheers,
Cindy M (who worked for six months under the skeptical eye of her
husband... then he finally announced that my "problem horse" had
become the best one in the barn to handle.)"

As well as
"
There are lots of great people out there who use clicker training. You mentioned Steffan Peters. There is also Beezie Patton-Maddon, Sue Blinks, Jane Savoie. All of these are Olympic Riders. And they are not in the closet about clicker training. Ruth Hogan Paulson has also used clicker training.�


Two years ago, a student of Jane's came to our farm because she was afraid of her horse. In the course of a weekend, I taught her more about clicker training. She went on to be a super team mate for her horse and was accepted into Steffan Peter's NEDA clinic last year. And I might add they looked "Mav-o-lous"


So, don't worry about what's being said. Those are the ones who just don't know.�


Along with the people on this list there are some 2700 on the yahoo group Clickryder. And Equine Clicker Trainer Shawna Karrasch has 4739 friends on facebook.�


Warmly,
Dolores"


That is a list of several professional, successful riders in different sports who use CT. There's my straight answer for you


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i could only find small mentions of professionals using clicker training, nothing in enough detail to really understand how and when they use it.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> i could only find small mentions of professionals using clicker training, nothing in enough detail to really understand how and when they use it.


This is where I begin to get frustrated.

At this point, you are no longer asking with the intent of learning anything. You're only asking to disprove things and attack this method. However, you aren't going to succeed in convincing anyone who has actually used or witnessed correct clicker training that it doesn't work. It is based on science and good research and has been demonstrated over and over again.

You have asked about professionals who do clicker training and received an answer - MANY do use it, though it is in the minority. Honestly, I think it's because there is so much misinformation out there about it and people assuming it's wrong. However, this is just as wrong as me saying that you shouldn't use a bit because it makes you less of a rider. (FYI, I'm not trying to start this argument - I'm simply using it as an example).

Now, you're asking about what they actually do? Go buy a book about clicker training! I've already listed one and there are many instructional materials, just like any other training method. In addition, many of us who use clicker training have offered different ways to approach it. However, in the end, we all guide the horse to what we want it to do by clicking a "yes" and associating it with a reinforcer for each step closer and then extending what they have to do to get a click. And that is exactly what these other professionals do as well.

By the way, other reputable trainers to add to this list are the trainers in the rehab programs for mustangs and inmates. I've read multiple accounts of these trainers teaching through clicker training.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
> find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
> about it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
> carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
> ...



LOVE this!! So true! I'm actually going to try and host a clicker training clinic for my riding group this summer to SHOW them what clicker training _really_ is and teach them how to use it, since no amount of explaining will ever do it justice!


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm gonna have to agree with Gypsygirl on this one. I'd just like to see a video of someone using the clicker under saddle in a working environment. I'm not saying its wrong, but maybe if I could see it being used practically under saddle, I may understand it better..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to believe that the horse in question (the one the OP worked with) is probably bored out of her mind.

Maybe it's just me, but I've found that the less time you spend just screwing around with the horse, playing games, and the more time you spend giving them something to do, a job, and _making_ them listen to you (not by force/pain/intimidation, but simple pressure and release), the happier they are.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

that post was not attacking you or CT. i was stating the info i found in my research.

i dont want to learn how to do CT i want to understand how people who are at the top of their sport apply it to that sport, related to riding esp jumping.

i will add to this later.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

smrobs said:


> To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to believe that the horse in question (the one the OP worked with) is probably bored out of her mind.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I've found that the less time you spend just screwing around with the horse, playing games, and the more time you spend giving them something to do, a job, and _making_ them listen to you (not by force/pain/intimidation, but simple pressure and release), the happier they are.


And more willing, more experienced and, honestly, better broke.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm gonna have to agree with Gypsygirl on this one. I'd just like to see a video of someone using the clicker under saddle in a working environment. I'm not saying its wrong, but maybe if I could see it being used practically under saddle, I may understand it better..


I'm starting my colt from square one this spring (after doing some under-saddle riding last fall and then giving him the winter off). When we get to riding again and he's working solely off my leg from day one, I'll post a video  Deal?


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

smrobs said:


> To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to believe that the horse in question (the one the OP worked with) is probably bored out of her mind.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I've found that the less time you spend just screwing around with the horse, playing games, and the more time you spend giving them something to do, a job, and _making_ them listen to you (not by force/pain/intimidation, but simple pressure and release), the happier they are.





Wanstrom Horses said:


> And more willing, more experienced and, honestly, better broke.


Good thing this is what true click trainers do, then - we always have a job for them to do and change it up so they don't get bored!


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Ok, I'd love to see something. I've never had a "bored" horse. Ever. And I've never had to change anything up or make up something for them to do. They get rode hard, everyday, and have a job that tests them mentally and physically. My horses are tired at the end of the day, and that's something they should be.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

When I mention changing things up, I'm referring to not asking for the same repetitive task over and over i.e. if you're working on teaching a horse flexion to the right, you wouldn't want to keep making them give to the right over and over and over again for an extended period of time without a break or at least something else to do in between. This applies no matter what method you're using, and clicker trainers and "traditional" trainers can both get caught in this trap. Sometimes clicker trainers can get so caught up with what's going on they don't realize that, even though there's a "reward" involved, the horse REALLY doesn't want to be doing the same repetitive motion over and over again. Of course, traditional trainers that aren't being wise can pull and release a horse's head the same way over and over and over again, and even if the horse makes progress initially, it can be undone by frustration and the horse will quit giving to the pressure and resist it instead.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

My pony was a classic 'bored out of his mind' trouble making terrible pony when he arrived. He had attacked a professional (traditional) trainer, who was ground driving him - WITH A BIT! My 450 pound pony swung around and trampled her! He got this terrible reputation as a violent pony - but being worked once a week left him bored. 
Clicker training keeps his mind and his body very busy. I recently had to keep him inside as we had a snow storm deeper than he is tall - so I brought him into the aisle of my barn and taught him to kick a football. He started by targetting it with his nose, then pawing it, then eventually kicking it. Now I toss the football and he runs over and kicks it. He LOVES it! Sure you can't win a blue ribbon with that but my pony is freaking happy. He spends 10-20 minutes 3 times a day learning his new skills and spends the rest of the day and night thinking about it. I know he's thinking about it because he's not being naughty and the next time we go back to working on it he's got it totally figured out. Which is why I give him shot segments multiple times a day. 

My horses are not bored (unless my life gets busy and I don't have time). But as nothing more than a counter argument - I see many very bored traditionally trained horses as well - they have jobs, their jobs don't engage their minds or make them happy - they just exhaust them. They're not entertained or happy - they're just wiped out - too tired to act up. 

People who don't like clicker training certainly don't need to use it. 
But if you really want to know about it open your mind and try it rather than just making assumptions. Because all famous people don't do something doesn't mean it's not worth doing. 
That being said there are a number of famous riders who do- I've already listed them.

Now to go to where it was stated "it can't be sued to teach anything useful". In my opinion - EVERYTHING I teach a horse is useful. The 3rd thing I teach every horse is a back up cue - now that I've been filling water with buckets (frozen hose) that cue has been VITAL - running from the faucet to my horse's stall while the next bucket is filling. I need my horse to back up when I'm 4 steps away from their stall guards (so I can duck under) with my hands full of heavy buckets and I need them to do it immediately and completely. So they need to back up 2-3 steps with me just saying a word 4 steps away from them. They do. That is useful to me.
Clicker training is not a type of riding or style of working with horses - it is a way of teaching. If you want to teach your pony to kick a football you can do that - if you want to teach them to jump you can do that - if you want to teach them to tuck their knees a little better over the jump you can use it for that - if you want him to piaffe or passage or sidepass or flying change you can use CT to teach that! CT is a type of teaching - it can be used for anything you want.

I believe the reason most people who use CT use it to teach things like tricks and unmounted work is because those things are trained so easily with CT but not so easily with any other training style. It's hard to teach a pony to kick a football without CT. So I think most people who get into CT are looking for trick training - while most people looking into dressage use what's used by other dressage riders (pressure training). But I think anyone who's actually used or tried CT would realize it can easily be used to teach anything - even more 'professional' riding styles.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

OK I think I found the answer to all your questions - You want a professional rider using CT to train professional horses who compete in a variety of different specializations? I just found this on youtube after just a 2 minute search - I'm sure there is MUCH more like it.

This is a woman who uses her horse for flag carrying and reining - and some flag tricks too. As well as her other horse for dressage - competitively. I don't think I could be more impressed with a trainer. Here is a video of a trainer using CT for competitive purposes and riding her horses professionally.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> OK I think I found the answer to all your questions - You want a professional rider using CT to train professional horses who compete in a variety of different specializations? I just found this on youtube after just a 2 minute search - I'm sure there is MUCH more like it.
> 
> This is a woman who uses her horse for flag carrying and reining - and some flag tricks too. As well as her other horse for dressage - competitively. I don't think I could be more impressed with a trainer. Here is a video of a trainer using CT for competitive purposes and riding her horses professionally.
> Click With Horses - Georgia Bruce - Clicker Training - YouTube


Haha you're way more determined than I to find examples! I'm excited to watch this!!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok, I'd love to see something. I've never had a "bored" horse. Ever. And I've never had to change anything up or make up something for them to do. They get rode hard, everyday, and have a job that tests them mentally and physically. My horses are tired at the end of the day, and that's something they should be.


Here ya go  

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/#post1891826


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

what i was gonna write last night but did not have time to:

i have a book from the 1950s written by a show jumper in south america. i cant remember who it is, i can go find the book tonight. he trained all of these not super athletic horses to jump big fences. he decided with one horse that every time he jumped a fence he was going to give it a sugar cube to reinforce the behavior.the horse was very enthusiastic about jumping ! but that doesnt mean the horse had good form or was athletic or talented or correct in anyway. he just knew he was supposed to get to the other side of the jump. 

this is mainly why i dont give CT too much credit. 

paired with the fact that i already positively reinforce my horses. 'good gir' or a break or a pat or all three. my horses are excited to do their jobs and want to do them well.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

btw thanks for finding that video, i will watch it later.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> what i was gonna write last night but did not have time to:
> 
> i have a book from the 1950s written by a show jumper in south america. i cant remember who it is, i can go find the book tonight. he trained all of these not super athletic horses to jump big fences. he decided with one horse that every time he jumped a fence he was going to give it a sugar cube to reinforce the behavior.the horse was very enthusiastic about jumping ! but that doesnt mean the horse had good form or was athletic or talented or correct in anyway. he just knew he was supposed to get to the other side of the jump.
> 
> ...


Ah well it makes sense why you wouldn't give it credit based on that experience. However, here's the problem: That is simply just bad training, and any clicker trainer that knows what they're doing would agree.

(Disclaimer: please forgive me if I'm off-base on what makes a good jumper since I don't jump)

First, that isn't even clicker training - it's treat training, which I don't feel has any place at all in the horse world. In treat training, it is only possible to present the treat at certain times where it is safe and feasible to do so, i.e. AFTER the jump is completed. Therefore, it is impossible to train things like specific head and leg positions in mid-air. How is the horse supposed to know what he did wrong if you don't give him the treat/reinforcement until after he's done the entire jump?

In clicker training, the click is used to mark the specific behavior and the horse knows the treat will follow soon. After the horse got the idea that he was actually supposed to jump the jump, I imagine would start clicking for correct form before I ever asked him to do higher or more advanced jumps. (At this point, the horse doesn't get a click for simply going over the jump since he knows what he's supposed to do and it's expected) For instance, I could click _while he's still in the air_ each time the horse lifted his knees when he went over the jump. That way he connects the reinforcement with the correct form rather than just simply going over the jump. Eventually, he would figure out where his legs were supposed to be and that he had to jump with them in the correct position to earn a treat.

As for reinforcements of "good gir" or a pat, I still can't figure out how that's rewarding for the horse. I think _we_ find it rewarding and, naturally, pair those with the true reward for the horse, like getting to rest or not having to correct something that moment. Thus, it becomes a weak "reinforcer" - but again, it's not presented after all the behavior is over so the horse may or may not connect it to doing something right. If you stopped patting your horse or saying "good gir", would she still work? My bet would be yes - because she's actually working for the release of pressure (the "true" reinforcer, though it's negative reinforcement at this point since you're _taking something away_ i.e. subtracting it like you would a negative number)


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i forgot to add, it was an experiment pretty much on positive reinforcement, it was only done on one horse, because clearly it isnt that useful !

if click= treat, how is just giving a treat any different ? that is just tomato tomaato...

so are you supposed to click in the air over the jump ????

well you have associated 'good girl' or a pat with a release of pressure and/or good things happening long enough that they know it is a reward. yes the biggest reward is the release of pressure, but the praise just backs it up and reinforces it. just like a crop can reinforce your leg.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> i forgot to add, it was an experiment pretty much on positive reinforcement, it was only done on one horse, because clearly it isnt that useful !
> 
> if click= treat, how is just giving a treat any different ? that is just tomato tomaato...
> 
> ...


To clarify, clicker training is a practical application of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is constantly present in our lives - Do you work so that you get money? That's positive reinforcement!

The click is used as a bridge for the treat so that you're able to mark more precise things. For example, could you give your horse a treat in mid air over a jump? No. But can you click to mark the correct body position in mid-air over a jump? Yes! This gives meaning to something specific the horse is doing than simply going over the jump, and since it is instantly marked along with the behavior rather than after the fact, then the horse is able to make clearer conections with what it's dong correctly and then is able to do it more often.

By definition, positive reinforcement is something that causes a behavior to happen more often. Verbal rewards or pats are far too sporadic for them to become effective reinforcers, and since they happen AFTER everything, you would run into the same problems as treat trainers since they can't mark the exact behavior as soon as it happens.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

By the way, I'm going to clarify what a "reinforcer" is later today on my thread but from your response I can tell there is sone confusion on what exactly a reinforcer is. The terms "positive" "negative" "renforcer" and "punishement" are used differently when referring to behavior training. This is similar to how a "negative number" in math isn't a "bad" number - it's simply a number below 0. It's easy to miss the point of the point and methodology of clicker training if you don't understand these terms.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

thats the point i dont get, why the click. do i really have to click while im focusing on jumping a 4 ft fence and holding the reins and holding a crop and steering and staying balanced over my horse ? that is so much more complicated that staying out of my horses way, which im sure she appreciates more ! i dont understand why the click cant just be left out. 

horses can associate something that has happened in the last couple seconds, same with dogs, talk to a dog trainer. i trained dogs professionally for 3 years, i know how and when to reinforce behaviors. you cant wait long, but you for sure have a window of oppurtunity. 

this is also why pressure and release works so well, it happenes very quickly and there arent so many steps for the horse to put together. just one, i move = no pressure.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I am going to be home this weekend. Is there anything people would like to see me teach my cow with C/T? Keep in mind, I will only have one day.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

gypsygirl said:


> thats the point i dont get, why the click. do i really have to click while im focusing on jumping a 4 ft fence and holding the reins and holding a crop and steering and staying balanced over my horse ? that is so much more complicated that staying out of my horses way, which im sure she appreciates more ! i dont understand why the click cant just be left out.
> 
> horses can associate something that has happened in the last couple seconds, same with dogs, talk to a dog trainer. i trained dogs professionally for 3 years, i know how and when to reinforce behaviors. you cant wait long, but you for sure have a window of oppurtunity.
> 
> this is also why pressure and release works so well, it happenes very quickly and there arent so many steps for the horse to put together. just one, i move = no pressure.



The reason the click can't be left out is _because_ you don't want the horse to think that getting to other side of the fence is the most important thing.
I teach my pony unmounted agility, he's too small to ride and has an old rib injury preventing a small rider from riding him. I want to pony to approach the jump at the gait I want, I want him to pick up his knees and go over the jump properly and balanced, and I want a calm landing. If I were to just shove treats in his face after the jump then his whole goal would be getting from one side of the jump to the other side as fast as possible. If my pony approaches the jump at the wrong gait he doesn't get his click and we turn around and approach again. If he drags his knees he will not get his click (of course this all happened in stage and progression). When he lands I expect him to come out of it calmly - if he gets worked up no click. While I wouldn't typically click for them landing calmly it was an issue and he got excited so he needed to learn calm is better.
He is gradually moving up to jumping a series of obstacles. The Click clearly marks the action I want. If I just fed him treats when he's landed the jump, how will he know it's because he trotted this time? Or tucked his knees better this time? The click says 'yes' right this minute that's what I want. 

As for your comment "o i really have to click while im focusing on jumping a 4 ft fence and holding the reins and holding a crop and steering and staying balanced over my horse ? that is so much more complicated that staying out of my horses way, which im sure she appreciates more !" I hope that's not how you actually jump. It takes a little more work than just getting out of their way. And no _you_ don't need to click, because _you_ don't like CT. But if I were to be teaching my pony to jump well and I was on his back, yes I would click when he did it better - or I'd have a friend on the ground click at the right time to make sure to mark the correct behavior. Also if your concern is about carrying a clicker while riding, yes that's difficult - I don't use a clicker at all I use a smooch noise I make myself so I don't have to carry anything.

Pressure and release does work well. I'm not arguing that - All I'm saying is CT works also, if you have good timing and reinforce the correct behavior. pressure and release is often screwed up too, it's not a fool-proof training method. I used to work at a hunter barn and at their barn I work with their horses their way (of course). They tell me to back a horse up with a rope halter on and standing in front of him and shaking the rope vigorously. They weren't happy with how vigorously I was shaking the rope until the horse's head was all the way in the air, he was backing aggressively and desperately looking for a way out. He got this treatment everytime he invaded the leader's space. While this method works I found it to be much calmer and more relaxed to teach a horse to back up calmly and quietly. I like my animals to be relaxed and unafraid. Not saying all pressure+release trainers work this way - my point is just that like any training method it can be screwed up too. Also at this barn, it's quite interesting, they put down the idea of clicker training, but they tell me the only way to lead one of their horses from his stall to his paddock safely is by carrying a carrot in front of his nose to make him follow it. They also have a horse who kicks the wall whenever he runs out of food, because it's annoying they give him food whenever he does it. This has obviously taught him to kick the wall more. Positive reinforcement - even unintentional. 

There aren't many steps for a horse to put together with CT, just like a release of pressure the click is a clear marker of the word 'yes' the difference is not all things can be taught with release of pressure. Like targeting. 
No one is saying you can't use Pressure+release, it works. The difference is the people who have actually tried CT and done it properly have realized how eager and motivated it makes horses to learn. When I do CT at my rescue I work with 1 pony at a time in a herd of 3, 2 of them are my projects the 3 is a project for a little girl I'm teaching. When I go in I take the one I'm working with the a corner and start - not 2 minutes i the other 2 will be over offering skills to me. If I ask my pony to back up, the other 2 will be backing as well. If I'm not asking anything they'll offer skills, backing up, holding up a hoof, searching for my target, any number of things. It makes me happy to see my horses _wanting _to learn. I love to watch their wheels turn as they figure out what it is that I'm looking for. Teaching my mare to Stand was a ball. I would stand out in front of her and say stand, then back away gradually, she would watch me SO intently, looking for what she was supposed to be doing. The click was a surprise to her when she didn't do anything xD. When I stepped to the side and began circling her she'd turn and face me, and not get a click, she was trying SO hard. If I stepped to one side she'd turn, so I'd step back, ad she'd turn back. It was adorable. Now we've reached a good solid Stand. I can be walking her say Stand and she'll stop even if I keep going  

Here is yet another great video to show just how effective and useful CT can be


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

aldebono said:


> I am going to be home this weekend. Is there anything people would like to see me teach my cow with C/T? Keep in mind, I will only have one day.


Teach her to touch a target!  I'd be curious how fast she picks it up. My horses learn it fully in about 2, 5minute sessions. My pig learned it in 20 seconds flat xD Targets are an easy skill to learn - Please take a video!


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Oh, she does that! That's about the only thing she does though. She hasn't done c/t in years, so I will take a video of her doing the target for the first time again.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> As for your comment "o i really have to click while im focusing on jumping a 4 ft fence and holding the reins and holding a crop and steering and staying balanced over my horse ? that is so much more complicated that staying out of my horses way, which im sure she appreciates more !" I hope that's not how you actually jump. It takes a little more work than just getting out of their way. And no _you_ don't need to click, because _you_ don't like CT. But if I were to be teaching my pony to jump well and I was on his back, yes I would click when he did it better - or I'd have a friend on the ground click at the right time to make sure to mark the correct behavior. Also if your concern is about carrying a clicker while riding, yes that's difficult - I don't use a clicker at all I use a smooch noise I make myself so I don't have to carry anything.


Since I do use an actual clicker (permanently attached to my writs with a good elastic band), I really like your idea about having someone else click from the ground. I would even suggest taking it a step further and do as you're doing - to first teach your horse to jump with correct form from the ground, and then jumping under saddle ONLY when it's perfected on the ground so you don't have to worry about all the small details and clicking in mid-air. If done corctly, it should take few to no tries to translate the correct form without a ride to realizing they still have to have correct form with a rider. And, since you already worked out all the details and the horse knows how they're supposed to be jumping, you could click only after the jump is completed. You might not have to do any clicker training in the saddle at all, actually, since they've alread py learned what you expect and now they have to do it without the clicker.



PunksTank said:


> Pressure and release does work well. I'm not arguing that - All I'm saying is CT works also, if you have good timing and reinforce the correct behavior. pressure and release is often screwed up too, it's not a fool-proof training method. I used to work at a hunter barn and at their barn I work with their horses their way (of course). They tell me to back a horse up with a rope halter on and standing in front of him and shaking the rope vigorously. They weren't happy with how vigorously I was shaking the rope until the horse's head was all the way in the air, he was backing aggressively and desperately looking for a way out. He got this treatment everytime he invaded the leader's space. While this method works I found it to be much calmer and more relaxed to teach a horse to back up calmly and quietly. I like my animals to be relaxed and unafraid. Not saying all pressure+release trainers work this way - my point is just that like any training method it can be screwed up too. Also at this barn, it's quite interesting, they put down the idea of clicker training, but they tell me the only way to lead one of their horses from his stall to his paddock safely is by carrying a carrot in front of his nose to make him follow it. They also have a horse who kicks the wall whenever he runs out of food, because it's annoying they give him food whenever he does it. This has obviously taught him to kick the wall more. Positive reinforcement - even unintentional.


I'll add to that in saying clicker training and traditional training with pressure are more powerful together than each on their own. I often use pressure to guide my horse to what I want him to do (like applying pressure to the halter) and then click when the horse does what I'm asking for.



PunksTank said:


> There aren't many steps for a horse to put together with CT, just like a release of pressure the click is a clear marker of the word 'yes' the difference is not all things can be taught with release of pressure. Like targeting.
> No one is saying you can't use Pressure+release, it works. The difference is the people who have actually tried CT and done it properly have realized how eager and motivated it makes horses to learn. When I do CT at my rescue I work with 1 pony at a time in a herd of 3, 2 of them are my projects the 3 is a project for a little girl I'm teaching. When I go in I take the one I'm working with the a corner and start - not 2 minutes i the other 2 will be over offering skills to me. If I ask my pony to back up, the other 2 will be backing as well. If I'm not asking anything they'll offer skills, backing up, holding up a hoof, searching for my target, any number of things. It makes me happy to see my horses _wanting _to learn. I love to watch their wheels turn as they figure out what it is that I'm looking for. Teaching my mare to Stand was a ball. I would stand out in front of her and say stand, then back away gradually, she would watch me SO intently, looking for what she was supposed to be doing. The click was a surprise to her when she didn't do anything xD. When I stepped to the side and began circling her she'd turn and face me, and not get a click, she was trying SO hard. If I stepped to one side she'd turn, so I'd step back, ad she'd turn back. It was adorable. Now we've reached a good solid Stand. I can be walking her say Stand and she'll stop even if I keep going


LOVE this!! My colt inn a nutshell - he's ALWAYs trying to perform and earn clicks, whether or not I have my clicker with me (and, I might mention, NEVER mugging for treats, either). I'll go out in the pasture and he starts playing the "stand" and "statues" game. We spent a long time on this toward the very beginning of his training and it unintentionally became his "go-to" behavior. It's quite convenient, actually, because he somehow assumed that he should "stand" unless I give him another cue. For instance, if I walk away and want him to follow me I have to cluck to tell him it's ok for him to move his feet. It proved VERY useful the first time I mounted him because he was so used to being a "statue" all the time and ignoring anything I did, even climbing on his back! So now, even though I didn't mean to teach him this behavior as a "defautl", I occasionally renforce it because it's so handy.

I had to laugh when you described your other horses performing even though you weren't working with them - I can so imagine that!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

staying out of a horses way when they are jumping is your #1 job ! 

i dont think CT is for me, i already have a willing and eager horse =]


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

JillyBean you're so right! If I were to take his jumping undersaddle (which can't be done) but if it could I'm sure he would be fantastic right away. Just like my mare learning the verbal cue for walk and trot and back up took that under-saddle immediately. 



jillybean19 said:


> I had to laugh when you described your other horses performing even though you weren't working with them - I can so imagine that!


Lol my tiny herd xD they're the sweetest! These are my two minis:









The black one (Sugar Plum) was a rescue that we rehomed that just recently came back to us in terrible shape (her poor owner came down with Alzheimer's disease). She's about 8 and can't eat solid food, so I clicker train her with peaches, bananas and grapes  Both of the two minis were terribly bred/inbred on a breeding farm run wild. Sugar Plum was cursed with terrible teeth far too large for her face, we had many pulled b the vet but she still has trouble with real food, so she lives off of soaked hay cubes :3 
The pale one (she's actually a ivory champagne, IDK if she has dun too or if the dorsal stripe is counter-shading). She's built like a bull-dog and has a twisted foot, but that doesn't seem to bother her. Her biggest trouble is that she's blind (which makes CT tough sometimes! no targets). My plan is to make them a tiny team for driving  So far we have come here and back up! lol they just started and I only work with them 1 day a week.


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## kayhmk (Jul 9, 2010)

smrobs said:


> To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to believe that the horse in question (the one the OP worked with) is probably bored out of her mind.


More than that, the horse was utterly confused. Now she is doing so much better, it's hard to think it was that bad that recently!

I agree with playing games. It's one thing to prepare stuff and a completely another to drill the same over and over. Games have their limited use and time, things should progress.


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