# Foaling Q's



## Eastowest

Those do seem like pretty advanced signs for 6 weeks to go, so I would lean towards the previous foaling date being a month off. But then again, I had a mare who regularly foaled between 322 and 327 days and all of her foals were big and "well cooked".... so if your mare really is around 300 days she might have only 3-4 weeks to go rather than 6, depending on her gestational habits and this particular foal's preferences... 

Dang mares anyway. I HATE not having a breeding date to go by, but sometimes even when you do, the mares sabotage you.

As far as preemies go-- anything born before 300 days is usually not considered viable. around The closer you get to 310 the more likely the foal could make it, but often with neonatal ICU type care as it might not be able to nurse un-assisted for a week or so. (mattress to put the foal on, heated area, IV and tube feeding, etc.) 320 you are getting close to the normal gestational length for some mares.

Unofortunately, there could also be the possibility of twins--- Mares carrying twins usually deliver early. Not overly likely, but something to be aware of.


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## thunderhooves

Eastowest said:


> Those do seem like pretty advanced signs for 6 weeks to go, so I would lean towards the previous foaling date being a month off. But then again, I had a mare who regularly foaled between 322 and 327 days and all of her foals were big and "well cooked".... so if your mare really is around 300 days she might have only 3-4 weeks to go rather than 6, depending on her gestational habits and this particular foal's preferences...
> 
> Dang mares anyway. I HATE not having a breeding date to go by, but sometimes even when you do, the mares sabotage you.
> 
> As far as preemies go-- anything born before 300 days is usually not considered viable. around The closer you get to 310 the more likely the foal could make it, but often with neonatal ICU type care as it might not be able to nurse un-assisted for a week or so. (mattress to put the foal on, heated area, IV and tube feeding, etc.) 320 you are getting close to the normal gestational length for some mares.
> 
> Unofortunately, there could also be the possibility of twins--- Mares carrying twins usually deliver early. Not overly likely, but something to be aware of.


hmm....... after that, i would say defiantly get your vet out fr an ultrasound to make sure it isnt twins and see how far off the vet estimates she is. Better safe than sorry!


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## maura

The most reliable sign, in my experience, of the ones you described is the relaxation of the tail head. Lots of mares bag up early, I've seen some drip fluid from their udders (light dripping that you see specking their thighs and hooves) for weeks beforehand, same with waxing up and even with the baby dropping/appearing engaged in the pelvis. But six weeks out? Nah. 4 weeks out, yeah, sure, some mares exhibit some of these signs 3 - 4 weeks out. 

Tail loose and no resistance, and depressions on either side of the tail head, combined with the other signs? I think you're a week or two away, considering this is an experienced broodmare. 

I also agree with your logic that she was probably bred back on her foal heat; so whenever *you think* the colt at her side was born, subtract 10 days from the anniversary and that's your potential due date.

Cold time of year for a baby - yikes! 

I'd try to borrow some foal or pony blankets to be on the safe side. We used to put human down vests on early babies on cold nights, works pretty well in a pinch. Heat lamps are great as well, but of course have to be *very* closely supervised.


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## Indyhorse

Thanks everyone! I was really hoping to see someone step up and say "oh yeah, my mare develops this early all the time" *lol* but wishful thinking only takes you so far and probably it's better to be prepared.

Easttowest ~ Gosh Twins hadn't even occured to me. Goodness I hope not! I had mentioned an ultrasound to my vet when he was looking at her, he was actually here just last week, the day before her udder started enlarging. He said at this late in the pregnancy ultrasounds don't show a lot and that it wasn't really worth it - she sure seems big enough to be carrying twins but I was just betting on a ginormous baby, like last year's. The vet seemed to think the due date of March 18 was still accurate, but that was before the signs started this week. Bah, it is a big hassle, I breed my Collies, but have never really been interested in breeding my horses. After this colt, my poor girl is DONE! *l* I've never tube fed a foal, though I have seen it done, so I'll have the vet show me how when he is here. I've tube fed lots of puppies. I already have a couple heat lamps out there, not turned on at the moment though. I have 600 bales of hay stored in the loft over the stalls so I haven't been comfortable running a kerosene heater out there - I could put a couple ceramic heaters out though. I have an old mattress I could take out there if needed - however if the baby is preemie enough to need IVs other than just subQ fluids I'll probably have them take it and Freyja down to the vets and care for it there anyways.

Thunderhooves ~ no kidding, that's a thought to freak me out! hahaha.

Maura ~ that's my experience too. I've seen early udder development before, but not bellies dropping and the prominent tail head until very close. I do actually have a little foal blanket, the velco closure kind, I had bought it last year in prep. for Finn's arrival, but he never needed it and it was too small for him anyways. I have a winter rug for my pony, but it would probably be too big for a baby. If the foal blanket I have doesn't fit then I can get a hold of something else, but good idea there too with the vests. My fiance has a REALLY nice down vest from the gap he got for chirstmas I'm sure he'd be thrilled about contributing :twisted:. I think I'll go out to the barn today with a couple cans of spray foam and try to seal up any additional cracks in the siding and such. It IS far too cold - was really counting on those extra few weeks to at least be not in the dead of winter!


Thanks so much everyone for the ideas! I'm going to go call the vet again about an ultrasound. I'll keep you posted!


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## maura

Ask your vet if he has any colostrum stored or frozen, and barring that, a hyper-vaccinated plasma donor available in case the baby doesn't get colostrum and it's IGG is low. 

Of course, this is all paranoia - it may just be a whooping big *term* foal.


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## tealamutt

I admit that I have not read all the posts but have a lot of experience with pregnant mares and foaling as I work for a board certified theriogenologist (repro specialist). Mares develop premature signs all the time and fake us out by going another month or two. You can have the vet out to ultrasound her and get a date (accurate within a few days) by measuring the eye. I also would have checked a field bred mare for twins, is there another vet available, more experienced in repro techniques? (I am concerned that he didn't know about measuring the eye or didn't want to check for twins...) Also, the kits you can buy for testing the milk from her udder (predict-a-foal) are pretty accurate- at least enough to tell you if she is bagging up weeks early or if a foal is coming in a few days. 

It sounds like you're experienced with what to do once the time has come, the only advice that I'd offer up is that most mares do best when left alone. However, since you're unsure on the due date and status of pregnancy- ie twins versus singleton, I'd want to be on hand in case of dystocia. DO NOT PULL, no matter how tempting. If she is working at it for more than 20-30 minutes once the labor is rolling, get a vet out. Please keep us posted on your girl, sounds like she had a hard luck deal and is in much better hands now. Good luck to all of you.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ Thanks for the advice. I do not think this vet is probably well versed in reproduction - he's just sort of your average country vet type. He can float teeth, do Xrays, stitch wounds and give vaccs but probably not a lot beyond that. I mean, he's fine for what he does but I wonder too about the ultrasound, he really didn't think it was necessary and said "the foal is so big you see nothing but a jumble of legs on ultrasound at this point". So probably not. All the same, I have left a message at his office about scheduling an ultrasound this morning, however I haven't got a call back. He is unfortunately the ONLY vet servicing my area - my other option is packing my mare up and trailering her down to Purdue - a four hour trailer ride is probably not in her best interests right now. Are twins really that common in pasture bed horses? I've had zero experience with horse twins - never seen it happen, although I know it occasionally does, I thought it was exceptionally rare. That's a scary thought to me.

I've done the milk predictor kits before, actually, that tests for high calcium levels right? I think I'll get a hold of some - although right now she just has yellow liquid when expressed, it's not turned milky at all yet. Thankfully she isn't touchy about her udder being handled at all. She's more full today but still nowhere near a fully engorged udder, the back half hasn't filled all the way, it's still soft and spongy, although the front half of the udder is full, and she still has a relatively deep crease down the middle. Her back end is still very long and loose, but it's not gaping. There's no signs of discharge of any kind, the tissue is nice and pink, not red at all. Her tailbone is very prominent, and her tail itself is completely loose, that "muscles cut" sort of lack of resistance. 

But she's pretty much acting herself around me. She's not more clingy or more stand offish to me than normal, she's eating and drinking with as much appetite as normal, no more or less. She does seem a bit more lethargic and inclined to stand around, she's not following with the others when they head into the other pastures, she just stays near the barn and wants back in. But that can also attribute to being heavily pregnant and just not wanting to move. She doesn't fight to stay in the stall when I turn her out in the morning, she's happy enough to go out, just doesn't seem interested in wandering very far.

So she might well still be ages off. I don't know much of her history, but like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if she's just had babies year after year since she was a three year old. I'm hoping this is just her being very prepared! If she delievered Finn with no problem, I'm not figuring on any complications here, all the same I do have space next to her foaling stall to camp out when I need to. Don't think I'm there yet, but that might be the plan of action here in the next few weeks.

Thanks so much for the advice!


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## FeatheredFeet

We had a premie last year. First one ever and she did very well and nursed well herself. She was also out of a maiden mare. We wouldn't tube a foal. Just have baby bottles/nipples on hand. Strangely enough, our premie was the most outgoing and forward foal we've ever had. 
We expect one only foal this year and didn't breed the mare ourselves, so can only go by what we were told. She is supposed to foal Feb. 11th, so we'll wait and see. But right now, the mare doesn't look very big at all. This will also be her first baby. I wouldn't worry too much. Just keep an eye on your girl. 
Here's a little list we keep on our forum, of things to have on hand. Some will never be needed, but it's best to have them, just in case.

1. Scissors (disinfected). 
2. Towels & Rags...washed in nonscented detergent. 
3. Ivermectin for momma. 
4. Tail wrap. 
5. Baling twine. 
6. Iodine for naval. Some prefer Chlorhexidine these days.
7. Garbage bag & bucket with lid to "hold" placenta until vet inspects. 
8. Flashlight (with fresh batteries). 
9. Thermometer. 
10. Stethoscope. 
11. Halter & Lead for Dam. 
12. Cell phone with vet emergency numbers. 
13. Latex & sterile OB shoulder gloves. 
14. Sterile lubricant. 
15. Baby wipes. 
16. Baby bottles with nipples. 
17. Probios 
18. Banamine (only if needed). 
19. Clock (that lights up) and notepad to record times of everything. 
20. Camera (digital & video). 
21. Oxytocin (just in case). 
22. Colostrometer. 
23. Bulb Suction for nose. 
24. VitaFlex Foal Response. 
25. Soapsuds enema (only if needed). 
26. Truck & Trailer hooked up (just in case). 
27. When you are recording down everything that goes on, go ahead and have it prewritten. That way all you have to do is put the time next to it. Less work during the craziness of foaling. 
28. A bag of shavings and a bale of straw/hay. When the water breaks, spread a little down to absorb the moisture. Then lay down straw right on top of it as well if you're not able to pick it up before the foal is born. That way the foal is laying on straw, but won't slip since the moisture was absorbed. 
29. Sterile Fishing Line (In case the navel is bleeding, you can tie it off.) Most prefer naval clamps these days or white shoe lace that has been soaked in chlorhexidine, dried and placed in a zip lock bag.
30. Feed for the mare afterward. 
31. For maiden mares make sure you have a partition setup in case you need to separate mare and foal. 
32. A foal halter is a good thing to have on hand because the sooner you start putting it on and taking it off, the easier time you'll have of it. You'd be surprised at just how independent and strong those little ******s can get from the time you leave them for a few hours sleep till you get back to the barn to check on them again.


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## kevinshorses

That's about 31 more things than I have ever had when a mare foaled. 

To the OP: It sounds like you are maybe worrying a little too much. A watched pot never boils. I have never been good at guessing how far away a mare is from foaling. There are so many variables. Some mares don't drop very much in the sides because they are young and in good condition while older mares that have had a few foals have a belly that just about drags on the ground. Some mares get a bag twomonths before the foal is born and some bag up the night before. I have one mare that doesn't milk real well and she never has much of a bag but a mare in the same pasture has enough milk for three foals. About the only thing that I have found that is an indication of birth within a week or ten days is the loosening of the vulva. When it gets real sloppy and loose looking then foaling isn't far away.

I wouldn't cover the placenta and afterbirth either. The mare eats it and it helps her release her milk a little better.


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## FeatheredFeet

If you know how to "read" a placenta, then it's ok not to save it for the vet, but for those who don't know, then it's best to keep it until the vet check. And if one lives in an area where there are wild creatures about, best to keep it in a closed bucket.


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## Indyhorse

FeatheredFeet said:


> If you know how to "read" a placenta, then it's ok not to save it for the vet, but for those who don't know, then it's best to keep it until the vet check. And if one lives in an area where there are wild creatures about, best to keep it in a closed bucket.


I actually can tell if a placenta is complete or not, however since I am not familiar with how this mare foals out I probably will keep it for the vet just to be certain.

Just as an update - no real changes  She's still the same, udder may be a bit fuller but other than that nothing else. I'm guessing I still have a wait, but keeping a close eye on her to be sure. Nothing to make me start keeping her in the stall or camping out in the barn yet


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## Indyhorse

Oh, forgot to mention, I finally got to speak to my vet yesterday. He said he didn't need to do an ultrasound to check for twins because he would have noticed if there were twins when he did her palpitation in December. He did say, however, if I am very concerned he can arrange to do an ultrasound in the upcoming week to try to confirm gestational age, he stated again he didn't think it was necessary, but that he could do it. I am going by his office when they open tomorrow to get the milk test strips, and I probably will go ahead and schedule an ultrasound appt tomorrow. (couldn't schedule it yesterday, he returned my call after office hours)


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## tealamutt

Indy- no twins are not at all common. In fact most mares resolve twins or abort by 7 months. All the same we had two sets of twins in our tiny mountain town in the same year, both surprises as no vetting was done on either mare. Biggest surprise was that both sets and dams lived and did well. 

Feathered feet- out of curiosity, what is the oxytocin for? I ask because I have seen people give it while the foal is still being delivered and it has caused massive uterine tears. We have always lost the mare and foal in these trainwreck situations. Not at all saying you would use it incorrectly, but for other readers, just making sure they know that you do not give it while the foal is still being delivered.

I am with Kevin on leaving a watched pot. Most mares do best with little disturbance, even though owners think their presence calms the mare, this is not usually the case (I know some people will disagree, but in the vast majority of deliveries, mares do better on their own). And mares are not at all like cows, you do not want to get your arms in there/pull unless you are a trained professional ie. DVM.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ oh believe me I'm completely with you there, I have no interest in being invasive. While I'd like to be there in case of emergency, I'm not vain enough to think my mare needs me to feel comfortable with something she has doubtlessly done on her own many times before. I don't think we are at the 'birth is imminent' point anyways, I think she may be closer than I had originally counted on and I just want to be prepared. 

I did get word back from the breeder just an hour ago(finally!) who confirmed absolutely last years colt was born April Fools Day with no chance for record mix ups. So, based on that, the soonest Freyja could have been bred was on her foal heat 9 or 10 days after that. She didn't have record of the length of Freyja's pregnancy, but did mention that she remembers her bagging up early. She says she didn't notice her tail muscles relaxing early, but then she didn't check :?. I'm inclined to think at this point we might still be heading for the original due date period, and she just shows a few signs early. Or she might be one that has a slightly shorter gestation, like others have mentioned. Maybe she's carrying a filly this time around, they don't cook as long, right? :lol:


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## tealamutt

mares are so hard to tell!! We have an arabian herd of broodmares and they all like to fool us from time to time. One poor girl was bagged up and tail flopping 6 weeks before she let go of her foal- and in 90 degree weather, the poor thing. Fillies can be shorter to cook, but usually by days, not weeks. 

It sounds like you're ready, the only think I'd want is to rule out twins, because you're going to want to go for c-section or at least having a vet on hand incase of tears (twins get all tangled up and the mare keeps pushing and you can get uterine or vaginal tears). You can do that with transabdominal (vs transrectal) at this point. I'd go for that since you said the vet isn't totally experienced with repro, I don't trust him to have felt the twins back in nov/dec. Other than that, wait it out, try to be patient, expect her to drop the second you turn your back or run to town for groceries. This part is both my most favorite and hated part of foaling season. Anticipation!! Good luck!


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## FeatheredFeet

tealamutt asked..



> Feathered feet- out of curiosity, what is the oxytocin for?


Retention of the placenta is very common post-foaling in Draft (heavy) horse breeds. They also seem more likely to develop laminitis if expulsion of the placenta is delayed. Oxytocin after foaling is an effective way of inducing placental expulsion. Many Draft horse owners, tie a damp towel to the hanging placenta if it has not come away pretty quickly after foaling. If that doesn't work, then Oxytocin is given. Obviously preferably given by a vet but if a vet is not available for whatever reason, then a knowledgeable breeder can give it. 
My daughter, who owns all our horses, has never had a problem yet with a retained placenta and her vet is always close by, but in an emergency, she would probably have to give Oxy.
The list I showed here, was put together by members of my forum. Obviously few would have all the items on hand and it was purely a list of possible items one would/should have on hand during foaling season.
We personally never bother a mare while foaling and wouldn't become involved unless there was an obvious problem. We do bring them in to the foaling stall though, a few weeks before their due date. It has an outside area with 6' stallion fencing, since we have wild animals about. 
We don't like to leave our horses out in the paddocks to foal if at all possible. Nobody wants to search around for a placenta in the dark, if a mare foals at night, or have to help a mare if needed during foaling, far away from the barn.
The mares are shut in the foaling stall at night with a camera to be watched from the house.
My daughter doesn't allow all and sundry to come in and watch births. We really like to leave mares alone to get on with it quietly. Most usually, my daughter is the only one in attendance if needed and not in the stall with the mare. Last year however, she did allow my eldest granddaughter to view her first equine birth.


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## Indyhorse

FeatheredFeet said:


> tealamutt asked..
> 
> 
> 
> Retention of the placenta is very common post-foaling in Draft (heavy) horse breeds. They also seem more likely to develop laminitis if expulsion of the placenta is delayed. Oxytocin after foaling is an effective way of inducing placental expulsion. Many Draft horse owners, tie a damp towel to the hanging placenta if it has not come away pretty quickly after foaling. If that doesn't work, then Oxytocin is given. Obviously preferably given by a vet but if a vet is not available for whatever reason, then a knowledgeable breeder can give it.
> My daughter, who owns all our horses, has never had a problem yet with a retained placenta and her vet is always close by, but in an emergency, she would probably have to give Oxy.
> The list I showed here, was put together by members of my forum. Obviously few would have all the items on hand and it was purely a list of possible items one would/should have on hand during foaling season.
> We personally never bother a mare while foaling and wouldn't become involved unless there was an obvious problem. We do bring them in to the foaling stall though, a few weeks before their due date. It has an outside area with 6' stallion fencing, since we have wild animals about.
> We don't like to leave our horses out in the paddocks to foal if at all possible. Nobody wants to search around for a placenta in the dark, if a mare foals at night, or have to help a mare if needed during foaling, far away from the barn.
> The mares are shut in the foaling stall at night with a camera to be watched from the house.
> My daughter doesn't allow all and sundry to come in and watch births. We really like to leave mares alone to get on with it quietly. Most usually, my daughter is the only one in attendance if needed and not in the stall with the mare. Last year however, she did allow my eldest granddaughter to view her first equine birth.


Okay, interesting. I didn't know draft crosses were more inclined to retain a placenta. I actually DO keep oxy in the house, for my dogs, my foundation ***** had an enormous litter the last time around and the vet advised it, although in the end I never used it, for my dogs a dose of calcium usually does the trick to supplement contractions. 

Many of the things on your list I actually have on hand standard at any rate, again for whelping puppies. There are a few specific items I don't (such as an ob shoulder glove, a colostrometer, and the vitaflex foal response). I have Probios, assuming it's the same thing I give my goats? That's the name brand, anyways, it's just probiotic bacteria? And I have suture wire instead of fishing line. Will the colostrometer be necessary when this is not a maiden mare? She was definitely an over-producer with her last colt.

tealamutt ~ yes I am going to go ahead and have the vet do the ultrasound, I'll be calling for that tomorrow. I unfortunately do not have cameras in the barn (wish I did!) I've been getting up and checking Freyja at night, but only once during the night as so far I really don't think it's going to be that soon. I expect she'll wait until I'm not around, no matter what I do anyways. Goodness me I'm glad I won't have to go through this again! Dogs are so nice and predictable with giving birth, you just take their temp and it doesn't lie :lol: 

I probably wouldn't dose the mare myself at any rate, but out of curiousity how would I calculate dosage?

You know, that's what I love about this forum. I learn new things all the time.


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## FeatheredFeet

There are things on that list we've never had either. I bred and showed dogs almost all my life and like you, usually had Oxy on hand. Never had to use it on a horse though.
What kind of dogs do you have? I had a few breeds along the way but mostly kept Great Danes, Dandie Dinmonts and Brussels Griffons.


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## tealamutt

Excellent post feathered feet. Extremely knowledgeable and valuable info! I know I said it before, but just to be clear, I wasn't trying to step on your toes at all- just wanting to make sure no one would think it could help with delivery. (people get kind of touchy on this forum from time to time, didn't want to start a battle!)


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## FeatheredFeet

Oh dear tealamutt, I didn't think that at all. I suppose really we are all here to compare notes and learn from each other. I don't know a quarter of that which I wish I knew.


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## Eastowest

_>>>> I wouldn't cover the placenta and afterbirth either. The mare eats it and it helps her release her milk a little better. _

Just so no one thinks their mares are weird for NOT eating the placenta-- I have never had a mare eat it-- that includes pasture-foaling mares who had every opportunity to do so. They wandered off away from it with their new foal and the next day I got to clean it up to keep the dogs or some other critter from finding it and dragging it around.

I posted a link to an veterinary article on an earlier thread (will have to look for it) that said that while eating the placenta was not unheard of in mares, it was pretty uncommon overall, as compared to other species, and that it could be dangerous to a mare that did not tear up/thoroughly chew it as larger pieces of consumed placenta could cause an obstruction.


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## kevinshorses

I thought it was much more common. I have only seen one mare eat it but I have only seen two mares foal. The rest foal on the range and I don't know what eats it.


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## tealamutt

I have never seen a mare eat her placenta, but then we are very careful to collect them and make sure none was retained. I did have to do surgery on a cow this summer who had eaten her placenta and had an impaction from it. Then again cows are pretty stupid, but not as bad as sheep.


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## kevinshorses

tealamutt said:


> I have never seen a mare eat her placenta, but then we are very careful to collect them and make sure none was retained. I did have to do surgery on a cow this summer who had eaten her placenta and had an impaction from it. Then again cows are pretty stupid, but not as bad as sheep.


 
Now I have seen quite a few cows calve and it is rare that a cow will leave a placenta if left alone. Lucky for the dogs they don't always get left alone.


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## tealamutt

guess this girl forgot that her mother told her to "chew her food"


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## Indyhorse

FeatheredFeet said:


> There are things on that list we've never had either. I bred and showed dogs almost all my life and like you, usually had Oxy on hand. Never had to use it on a horse though.
> What kind of dogs do you have? I had a few breeds along the way but mostly kept Great Danes, Dandie Dinmonts and Brussels Griffons.


Feathered feet ~ I raise old fashioned, working blood Collies. Not the modern day, cotton-candy coat dogs, but I breed to the original 1875 breed standard, where the dogs still excel as herders, flock managers and guardians. I used to co own and show several Boston Terriers also, but have really soured on AKC.


As for the placenta - I've seen horses mouth it some, but I've never seen one try to actually eat it. I know how to check one over and make sure it's complete though. I've always just trashed it afterwards. We have coyotes and fox very rarely out here, the worst for scavengers tends to be raccoons, but we get the occasional neighbor's dog being nosey. My male Collie tends to keep them at their distance though. I'd have to worry more about my own dogs - but they stay out of the trash. Usually. :twisted:


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## FeatheredFeet

I haven't shown dogs or horses for a long time now. Certainly the AKC could step up to the plate more than they do though.
I like Collies and had a rescue smooth for a while. Too much hair for me to deal with. In the future I'll stick to my wire haired little guys with no shedding. I've wanted an Airedale for ever, but am too old now to have one. :-(


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## Indyhorse

FeatheredFeet said:


> I haven't shown dogs or horses for a long time now. Certainly the AKC could step up to the plate more than they do though.
> I like Collies and had a rescue smooth for a while. Too much hair for me to deal with. In the future I'll stick to my wire haired little guys with no shedding. I've wanted an Airedale for ever, but am too old now to have one. :-(


Hehe the smooths actually shed much more than the roughs. My dogs go through major sheds once a year, or sometimes after a litter, but that's really it. I LOVE Airedales, those and bouviers were my favorite breeds to groom when I was doing it full time. You're never too old for a good dog 

As for an update on Freyja, she appears to be jerking me around. :-x While everything else looks about the same, with her tail all floppy and her back end blowing in the breeze - but her udder has shrank up a bit today. I went and got the milk tests today and was going to start her tonight, but I might just hold off a bit as there is only so many days supply, after all *lol* The vet is coming out Thursday morning to do the ultrasound, so hopefully then I'll have at least a for sure on gestational age, although the breeder swears she is correct on last years foaling date.

I have no issue playing the waiting game, but I don't like peek-a-boo symptoms!:evil:


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## FeatheredFeet

I hear you. I'd take a long coated breed over short any day and a wire coat over all. Didn't know you were a groomer. I also had a grooming shop for years. My daughter is a school teacher, but grooms on the side. She might have to do it full time soon, if California keeps laying off teachers. The school situation is a mess here.

Freyja is doing the same as my daughter's Halcyon. They do love to keep us guessing don't they.


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## Indyhorse

Started out as a groomer at 17 years old. Then got drafted from groomer to surgical aide at the vet clinic I worked for, and did that most my adult life. Had to quit working just before my son was born (was put on bedrest) and just groomed out of my house since he was born so I could set up my own hours around his therapy appts etc. Doesn't work as well now that I have moved so far out in the country though. Since he has started kindergarten this year I'll probably go back to the daily grind soon enough.  Thought about doing a tech certification program, since I had been doing all the work anyways as an aide, just not getting the same job title or pay *l* I agree with you - wire coats are the way to go if you want to avoid shedding! I swear there is some kind of link to wire coats and good temperaments - I've seen it across so many breeds!

The school situation is a mess everywhere, I think. My mother just retired early, last year from teaching her whole life in San Diego because she couldn't handle it anymore. I drive 30 miles one way to take my son to a charter school in town, because I've had endless nonsense from the districts.


I saw pictures of your Halcyon on the color chart thread. She is stunning!


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## FeatheredFeet

Well I just heard that my daughter's teaching job, will end in March! What a disgrace California is. Your Mum will know all about that no doubt. 
The state is completely broke. I'm on SS and it's been cut twice in the last couple of months. Cut my dental completely now. I get a meagre $100 per month from England - so the SS here cut $100 out of my check! 
Our schools are falling down but we must educate thousands - maybe hundreds of thousands, of children of illegal aliens here. Crime is dreadful and now, because our jails are full, they are going to let thousands of criminal out of jail, to make room for more. What are they thinking? It beats me. I could go on but won't. Makes me too furious. 
My daughter is sad about her job, since she taught kids with disabilities, but she has a wonderful grooming set up at her ranch, so will be able to carry on. However, she will have to sell at least one and probably two, of her lovely mares. She'll keep Halcy no doubt and hopefully her beautiful stallion. Living in California gets more difficult daily though.
At least my hubby has his medical paid for (so far). He's had 13 heart surgeries and if he didn't, we'd be living in one of those tent cities which have popped up all over the place here.
I guess we are lucky to have a roof over our heads and can hope that something changes in the future.


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## Indyhorse

Feathered feet ~ frankly I don't know how she can afford to keep horses in CA. After my divorce moving back there was something my whole family was prompting me to do (all my family is in San Diego) but with the cost of horse properties, not to mention how outrageous hay is out there, it wasn't an option for me. Out here, I filled both lofts in my enormous barn to the brim with very good quality hay - enough to last me through the whole year, even with all the big mouths eating it - for $1500 bucks. I could move to CA and be a non horse person, or stay in a part of the country I don't love but have built up a tolerance for, but be able to live the farm life I wanted. In the end an easy choice.

So you're from England originally? What part? My fiance is moving here from Kent. Once his visa clears. That has been an ordeal in itself. He stays here for three months, but then has to go back for two, until everything is in place. Been doing this for a year. I don't love that he had to go back in the middle of winter and leave hauling buckets of water to the barn in a foot of snow to me!!

I guess we've totally hijacked this thread, but since I created it an I don't mind, I suppose it's okay? *lol*


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## FeatheredFeet

In this market, most horse breeders can hardly break even, raising and selling a foal, but those in California, can hardly afford to breed at all. My daughter didn't breed any of her mares last year. Halcyon came to her bred and the foal will go back to the stud owner. Don't know if she'll breed this year. Her feed bill alone is enormous, just feeding six horses. And of course, everything else is more expensive too. 
We are very worried in the Gypsy Horse breed, that breeding will eventually end up only in the hands of a very few who can afford to keep breeding - whether they know what they are doing or not. 
Tell your fiance that I'd very gladly change places with him. I'm still very homesick for England, even after all these years. I have several friends who still live in Kent. Most of my family who are left, live in Wales. Funnily enough, they seem to think because I'm living in California, I must be doing extremely well. I guess they've watched too many movies. :wink:


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## CheyAut

Off topic, but I'd love to see pics of your collies  I love the herding breeds (my choice is Aussies)  
Oh and I was also a groomer, did that for 6 years


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## Indyhorse

CheyAut ~ I posted a couple pics of them on this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/farm/lets-see-your-farm-dogs-41832/

I love aussies too, I have one, he's 14 now but was my first herding dog. I never did stock work with him, but he was wonderful in obedience and agility. The herding trainer I take my dogs to works primarily with aussies. I had to search long and hard to find a trainer that didn't specialize in border collies, since rough collies herd differently then border collies do, and need a different approach to training. My dogs herd much like aussies - they are very upright, loose eyed working dogs, they don't stare 'em down like the BCs.

Update on Freyja - her bag has filled back in as of this morning, but really little else has changed. She seems very uncomfortable, but not the pre-labor kind of uncomfortable, just the I'm huge kind of uncomfortable. We'll know more after her ultrasound tomorrow!


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## tealamutt

Indy- dying to know what the vet says, please update tomorrow (I'm sure you're planning on it anyway!) I'm so nuts about babies (any kind but human), I'm living vicariously through you!


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ I'll keep updating this thread as things go along. I checked Freyja about 15 minutes ago. She was laying down, but just sleeping. Her bag had filled back in today, but it's still just yellow fluid, no milk. It's full but soft. I have my milk test strips for when her milk comes in, but not in a hurry to use them at this point. I got word from the breeder the other day, she mentioned she did remember her bagging up early last year with Finn. I'm keeping her tail braided (well, what passes for braided for me. There's a reason I'm not posting pictures, ya'll would laugh at my tail braid :lol and her stall immaculate, everything is set and ready (well, some of it's in a bag in my laundry room - liquids would freeze solid out there right now) I have put a couple space heaters out there, and a heat lamp in her stall, but not running any of it until the time comes. I've been checking her before I go to bed, but not really getting up at night to check her at this point, she's just not seeming that close. The tail and back end being so loose throws me off, but she's pretty much normal, not off her feed or anything. The vet comes tomorrow at 9 for the ultrasound, so hopefully I'll have more to tell you tomorrow!


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## tealamutt

boo to no pics, who cares about your braiding skills. Preggo mommy, that's what I want to see. And of course the bundle of joy when she does arrive. Here's something fun you can enjoy tomorrow- when the vet starts the U/S, the foal will start moving all around. It isn't dangerous at all for them, but for some reason, late term foals almost all "dance" when you start imaging them. I love palpating late mares, the babies love to kick and it is a pretty amazing thing to feel. I am green with envy right now, can you tell? Trapped in class all day and no chance to go out to the herd to help check on "my" girls!


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## FeatheredFeet

Very sad news. My daughter's mare Halcyon, must have lost her baby along the way. Vet says no baby.


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## Indyhorse

Oh no, oh that is so sad. I am so sorry, I know you were really looking forward to this baby. I am very, very sorry. *big hugs*


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## FeatheredFeet

Thank you so much. My daughter needs a hug right now. It was the only mare bred for this year. She was checked still in foal all the way along to 80 days, so she lost the baby some time after that.


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## CheyAut

FeatheredFeet, so sorry to hear  *hugs*

Indy, I'll have to go check out that thread! I'll wait until I'm home though, most photos are blocked at work  
Can't wait to see your foal when he/she decides to arrive!  I had a mare that seemed really relaxed behind for quite some time before she foaled. Guess your mare must be like that, too!


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## Indyhorse

Update on Freya ~

So the vet came out today to ultrasound Freyja. She was very good (she always is). He did both a transrectal and transabdominal viewing. (we were actually trying to see if we had a colt of filly, however the baby was being disagreeble for angles *l* The vet said he might have briefly saw signs of it being a colt, but can't say for sure by any stretch, it might have also just been part of the umbilicus as the baby moved. (it was VERY squirrley in there) There is definitely only one baby, and it is pretty big. The vet did take measurements, I don't think he does this a lot because he got on the phone with a colleague, but did say in the end their best estimation was that the baby was around the 295 day mark gestational age, (I had her guessed at 300 so pretty close) but he couldn't be for sure again due to the overall size of the baby. He felt Freyja's early signs were just that, early signs, though he did go ahead and milk test the yellow stuff she has in her udder (I didn't realize you could test it until it turned to proper milk.) The test came out at CAL. 40 and ph 8.8 so we are still a good while off. The ultrasound did show the baby was already in position, which I already knew based on the belly drop, and the vet said he felt Freyja's back end looseness was related to the baby being positioned so early, but her cervix was tightly closed and not softened at all. So while he did say he never saw a mare so loosened up this far before she's due, he felt comfortable saying she will probably see out her expected due date at this point, despite her "hurry" (as he put it). He did say that, like I had already suspected, that the mare has just been bred so much that her body is well prepared. He gave me both his pager and cell, on top of his office and home number which I already had, and warned me to call him as soon as she started regardless of whether she was having difficulty or not, just to be on the safe side since we are expecting such a large foal. He didn't see any reason to worry, and felt like we just have a while yet to wait.

All in all I am very glad I asked him to go ahead and do the ultrasound, despite his reticence on it, because it makes me feel a lot better knowing more about what is going on. So thank you all to recommended it, I appreciate it! Hopefully we got a few weeks left to wait and get the weather around here warmer before baby makes an appearance. I'll keep checking her all the same, and keep you all updated of course. But thank goodness it looks like baby will stay in a bit longer!


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## FeatheredFeet

What fun. Things are looking good.


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## tealamutt

whee! exciting. I'm glad you pushed for the U/S. I also give the vet kudos for calling a more experienced colleague (heck we can't all know everything!!) It is very hard to sex the baby even when they cooperate. We have been fooled more than once. Glad things seem to be going well for mom and baby- I'm tickled for you. 

Feathered Feet- so sorry to hear about your daughter's mare. Hopefully there wasn't too much put into the breeding. I'd definitely have her cultured before breeding next year, it is so disappointing to lose a pregnancy like that.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ I'm glad you encouraged me, I actually do feel a lot better now having it done. The vet was kind of uncomfortable with trying to work out gestational age, which is why I think he called the colleague. He said it was a little misleading due to the size of the foal - it's a big one. But I guess the body fat layer, and like you mentioned, eye size were the best indicators of age he took into account. He was hesitant and prefaced everything with "I could be wrong, but..." but even still, I feel much more comfortable with where things stand now. I think seeing her CAL so low and knowing her cervix was still nice and tight were just as big a part of that as what the colleague had to say about the ultrasound, so everything together makes me relax a bit more, and realize my mare is just weird like that :?. He did leave me two more packets of milk test so I can get her on a nightly testing routine between now and her due date. 


Feathered Feet ~ again, I am so sorry. Haven't been able to get poor Halcyon off my mind all day. Do they know why she lost it? I know your daughter was thinking about going down to just her stallion and this mare. Does this change her plans any for the upcoming year?


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## tealamutt

yeah, I'm sorry I meant to tell you that you can test the wax/colostrum with the strips, guess I forgot to post that!


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## FeatheredFeet

Thanks guys. Yes it's been a hard blow for my daughter. But these things happen when we are dealing with live creatures. Halcy was cultured before this breeding. Of course it had to happen to the mare she most wanted a baby from. :-(


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## Indyhorse

tealamutt said:


> yeah, I'm sorry I meant to tell you that you can test the wax/colostrum with the strips, guess I forgot to post that!


I knew you could test the colostrum, but I didn't know you could test the yellow pre-milk like she has now - it's an amber-colored, sticky liquid, that's mostly clear, that comes before it they start producing colostrum. But the vet said go ahead and start testing, because he has seen mares not actually switch to colostrum until after foaling. This yellow stuff will still have the lowered ph indicators, through not always the higher calcium indicator, so it's not as reliable. But he said start testing now anyways.

FeatheredFeet - what does your daughter plan to do from here? Is she going to breed Halcyon to the same stud for next year? Is she going to breed any of her other mares?


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## Indyhorse

Expectant mama pictures for Tealamutt :lol:

I brought Freyja in to her stall early today because she was freaking me out a little, I had to keep chasing her away from the manure pile (she felt the need to go lay on it.) She's fine, no signs of colic or anything else, I think it's more because we had another several inches of snow last night, and I cleaned stalls today, so it's nice and warm on the pile :-x. But still, after the 6th time chasing her out of there I'd had it and decided to put her up. So of course now that she's gross and manure covered I decided to take pictures of her *lol*

So the first few are just general pictures of her, the last few are what I have been seeing. I took a couple pics of her udder, but a black udder on the underside of a black belly in a dark barn, they didn't show up. It's pretty much the same though, full but soft, not engorged at all. Still no proper "milk", milk test last night was pretty much the same with Calcium 40 and ph 8.7. I haven't tested yet today, been testing around 8 pm and you are supposed to do it the same time every evening.

Anyways! Here's full-figured Freyja:


















Goofy face:









I tried to get a picture showing her sides from the front, so you could see how "flat" they have gotten compared to a few weeks back (I suppose that would be more useful if I had "before" pictures from a few weeks back:lol









But you can really see how it's all below her now:










Muscles fallen away from tail head:










Loose and elongated in back (though less so today than yesterday):










And yes, my barn is very, very rough. It's still standing from 1872 and we are fixing it up bit by bit. Our stalls are temporary and made out of scrap until the new roof goes on the barn this spring, then we will be putting up permanent stalls. The extension cord is ran across there to a light so I can see to clean the stalls, it's not left up there. The whole barn is getting re-wired this spring too, half the lights don't work in there. No making fun!


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## tealamutt

oh thank you thank you!! she's just lovely and that belly is HUGE, poor dear. No worries about a "rough barn" (it doesn't look it to me anyway) as long as it is safe, who cares how fancy it is?? Always hard to tell with a pic, but that tail does look extremely floppy!


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~
When I bought this place last July, I filled 3 24 foot dumpsters full of stuff from the barn. 3! The entire place was knee deep in just garbage - trashbags full of moldy stuffed animals, old papers, books, toys, cloths, feed bags, tarps, car parts, all just piled up on the floors. And still didn't get it all, I'm still finding various bits and pieces all over the place all the time. Last week I was clearing out a pile of old left behind straw up in the loft to compost, and found an old hand crank grain separator that has to be at least a hundred years old. It also has to weigh several hundred pounds - who the heck stuffed it way back there in the back of the loft?? *lol* The barn is structurally sound, and in great shape for the age, just needs a lot of TLC  I have a thing for really old barns, so I hope to get it completely restored someday.

She is enormous, she actually got herself into a trot when Finn, Claymore, and Misty were having their daily psycho-gallop. Lately all she has done is stand and watch, but she actually trotted after them today. She must have been feeling good  The tail is super floppy, just that kind of dead-no-muscles feeling, almost a little gross. Getting ready to head out to the barn and check on her and do her milk test. I'm a lot more relaxed now knowing we have a few more weeks to wait, but I wanted to get some pictures up of her. Sorry she decided to lay in poop today :evil:


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## JB44

PRedicting a mare is worse than predicting the weather!! After years of foaling mares, all i can say is they don't read the book!

That said, the belly drop seems to be the most accurate to me. It often happens about 2 weeks before. but not always. So i agree with those that say get the calcium strips, but don't squeeze liquid out every day. Not good to tamper with it too often.

Since she already has sloppy tail, that one won't help you much. 
Watch her nipples for when they fill. 

it's just a bummer, working with no real time info.

It would be awfully hard to look for twins at this stage. you might listen for double heart beats, but even that is hard. Had not heard about the eye measuring though. That is really cool!!!


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## JB44

PS in those pictures, that baby isn't very far back yet. when it moves back and fills the flank, look out.


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## Indyhorse

JB44 ~ since taking those pictures the other day, her flanks have filled completely in. :-| Thanks to the ultrasound, we do know there isn't twins in there and that the foal is already in position (though I don't actually know how far back, the vet didn't say). She is driving me crazy though. Thanks for the heads up about the flanks. 

Just an update for tonight, not much else has changed but milk test tonight jumped up from a calcium level 50 yesterday to calcium level 100 tonight. The pre-milk does look more opaque, but still quite yellow and not really colostrum-like yet. The ph is still at 8.4 (which is where it has been the last few days) and I know I don't really have to worry much until the calcium climbs up over 200 and the ph drops below 7. So still got a ways to go, just keeping this thread updated. :lol:


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## charlicata

You do realize you have to post pics of the baby as soon as you can...right?


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## Indyhorse

Haha, the trick will be to get me to STOP posting pictures. :twisted:

No, I'll try to get all the pics I can, of course. I think we still have several weeks wait ahead of us at any rate before Freyja gets there, but I'll keep updating this thread until the time comes


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## JB44

how exciting. enjoy!! and be sure to have a clock with you when she foals. all sense of time disappears. even after foaling LOTS of babies, i get anxious and can't tell if it's taking too long, or if it's progressing just fine!!! so i make myself write down the time of each bit of progress.


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## Indyhorse

JB44 that's a very good call. I have a barn clock anyways and I keep a clipboard out there for notes to self - at the moment I have all of Freyja's medical records along with the vet's # pinned up on it anyways in case of emergency, but keeping track of timing once everything starts is smart, I'll be doing that. Thanks for the tip!

No change for Freyja other than she has gone back to being kind of sluggish, she was laying down a lot today. Every time I went out to check her last night she was laying down, but she is still eating and drinking fine and her udder hasn't changed, it's not engorged and no wax so I don't think we are looking at soon yet.


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## Plains Drifter

Indy-
I am enjoying this thread! Thank you for sharing your expecting mare and foaling experiences with us. I recently am the proud mom to a foaling mare (I did not breed her, fyi). I believe she's due some time in April. I've never had a mare foal before, so I'm learning from this thread as well.

I adore your 09 baby from Freyja. I can't wait to see what you get this time.

I think your gelding in your avatar is STUNNING!! I think he's one of the most unique horses I've ever seen.

Please keep posting. Wishing you and Freyja a safe and easy delivery and a heathly baby!! Post lots of pictures!


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## Indyhorse

Plains Drifter said:


> Indy-
> I am enjoying this thread! Thank you for sharing your expecting mare and foaling experiences with us. I recently am the proud mom to a foaling mare (I did not breed her, fyi). I believe she's due some time in April. I've never had a mare foal before, so I'm learning from this thread as well.
> 
> I adore your 09 baby from Freyja. I can't wait to see what you get this time.
> 
> I think your gelding in your avatar is STUNNING!! I think he's one of the most unique horses I've ever seen.
> 
> Please keep posting. Wishing you and Freyja a safe and easy delivery and a heathly baby!! Post lots of pictures!


Aww, you are incredibly sweet *sniff*

I started out this thread in a half panic, and have decided to keep updating it because I thought it would be a good idea to have a play by play of sorts on here for expectant mares. Especially one that doesn't "play by the rules" like Freyja with her seeming so ready yet being nowhere near close. I'm actually keeping a written journal of her every day, with her milk tests. But updating on here every few days sort of keeps an online log as well, and helps me keep my head on straight *lol* And there are so many experienced people on this forum that are so willing to share tips and advice, so I have found it very helpful. I'm so glad it's proving to be of use to you as well! Congrats on your expectant baby!

Finn is such a dollbaby, he's very immature for his age, personality wise, but I understand that drafts mature slower. He is very good to work with, but still has so much of that "I'm a baby" personality. I can't wait until he approaches one year and sheds out, I'm really excited to watch him develop. I'm really looking forward to how the baby turns out, I had it in my head it would be a little Finn twin and the thread I posted on color possibilities opened my eyes. It will be interesting for sure! 

Hehe thanks again for the compliment on my gelding. He's a cross of three breeds, which I know many would consider a travesty, but I think he turned out alright, he pretty decent conformation wise and he has been a very fun horse to own, in his own mind he's all appy all the way. He's a great pleasure horse, at any rate, and I adore him and all his quirks.

I will definitely continue to post on this thread, both with updates on Freyja's progress, and probably lots more questions as the 'best guess' due date looms nearer. Of course there will be lots and lots of baby pictures once the lil squirt comes along - probably too many *lol*

Thanks again!


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## charlicata

Have you noticed any more changes in her?


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## Indyhorse

charlicata said:


> Have you noticed any more changes in her?


She stayed by the barn today, didn't join the others as they tracked from pasture to pasture and romped in the snow. That's not 100% unusual for her, she usually doesn't run with them (she has off and on again lameness problems) but she will usually follow behind at a walk. But I don't think she strayed more than 15 ft from the barn door all day, and spent a good part of it standing in front of the door, willing it to open. I never saw her go to the tank and drink, so I put double buckets in her stall tonight. It was cold today, so she might have just wanted back in her snug and cozy stall  She did "talk" to me through the barn door the whole time I was cleaning stalls today, just sort of "whuffled" at me, which is a little unusual too because she is not a vocal horse at all. I haven't done her milk test yet tonight (I'm bad, supposed to do it at 8 each night, but I'll be 20 min late tonight. Running out to do it as soon as I finish typing here!) But she ate her feed happily tonight, and no changes to her seemingly permanent "just half full" udder. Everything else looks the same, no more or less than it has been before. Still just waiting, for something to change or see some other sign *l* I am thinking at this point we will still at least see out the rest of February, if not a couple weeks into March. (March 18th would have been her assumed "best guess" due date)


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## charlicata

Not much of a change in Rosie either. Her flanks are filling out a little bit more, along with her bag. The calcium level is still at 100 and the ph between 7 and 8. The muscles in her butt seem to have dropped a little more though. I'm having the farrier out on Tuesday. It dawned on me tonight that she definitely doesn't need shoes on right now...much less the one's with borum cleats on them. He also gave me the name of another vet who may be able to give me a round about time on her due date. I wish I could find out exactly when she was bred.

I saw something move in her flank tonight. It poked out, stayed there for a few seconds, then went back in. She's more uncomfortable too. She moves to the side when I just rest my hand on her side near her flank.


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## Indyhorse

Charli, aww, feeling the baby move is the fun part! We've been able to see movement on Freyja's belly since late in the fall, she showed quite early - I'm guessing a combination of such a big baby and she was so terribly underweight when she came to me. Watch her when she drinks - that's when I see it the most.

Freyja is trying to drive me mad. Honestly. *sigh* I was feeling all nice and un-worried and figuring I could get away with sleeping through the night tonight. When I went out just now to do her milk test, she was laying down in her stall (fine) but she didn't get up when I came in (_not_ fine, she always gets up) and she was breathing hard and grunting. I climbed into the stall and looked under her tail, everything looked pretty much as it had, but she was grunting pretty hard and making no effort to stand so I stayed and watched for a minute. She started flexing the muscles in her back legs and grunting really hard, and then she pooped. Right in my face. Laying down. I have NEVER seen a horse poop while laying down before. After that she hopped up, shook herself off, had a good laugh at me and went to eating her hay. :evil:

However, it does make me worried a little that she might have a touch of a belly ache. As I mentioned, I never saw her go over and drink today, though she has drank half of one of her two buckets in her stall so far this evening. When I went to check her over, she was a touch damp underneath her mane along her neck, and she has absolutely no reason to be sweating, it's 15 degrees out tonight. She doesn't appear to be colicky, she ate her feed tonight just fine, has obviously been at her hay this evening, and had already pooped and peed several times in her stall. Her tummy sounded fine. I cleaned out her stall and spread another bale of straw just in case, and checked her milk - not much different - Calcium 110 and ph 8.2. The Calcium has been making a tiny climb every few days, and same with the ph drop, but no more big jumps since the other day when it hopped up to 100 so quickly. Her bag actually seems smaller tonight. But I'll be checking on her quite a bit tonight because something obviously doesn't seem right...I can't get over her pooping laying down, I just have never seen such a thing.


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## charlicata

Somebody posted a link to a video of a mare foaling. I watched it last night. The horse laid down, and (black and white video) it was either her water breaking or very runny poo that shot across her tail. In that video, the mare would flex her legs when she was trying to push. I hope it's that she's getting ready to deliver and not a tummy ache. I'll keep you guys in my prayers tonight.


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## Indyhorse

I'm hoping it IS a mild tummy ache (obviously not serious since she is eating and pooping fine) rather than delivering - assuming the math is right, she's only on day 310 at best. The foal would almost certainly not survive if born now.


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## Eastowest

I had a mare who would get mild colic/labor type symptoms (sweating, discomfort, looking at sides, stamping feet, up and down) about 2 weeks out from delivering, every time, for a night or 2. Vet said, based on gut sounds, pooping, vitals, etc. that it was most likely the foal repositioning getting ready to deliver.


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## Indyhorse

Eastowest said:


> I had a mare who would get mild colic/labor type symptoms (sweating, discomfort, looking at sides, stamping feet, up and down) about 2 weeks out from delivering, every time, for a night or 2. Vet said, based on gut sounds, pooping, vitals, etc. that it was most likely the foal repositioning getting ready to deliver.


I'm guessing this is the case, since she is fine this morning, at well and had finished off her hay last night. When we did the ultrasound, the vet said the baby was already in delivery position, but JB44 on here mentioned about the baby not being very far "back" yet, so maybe that's what it was. Anyways, she seems just fine today and was happy to go outside.


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## tealamutt

Well sorry I missed the pseudo-colic drama, was dealing with my own boy's choke all weekend. Bleah. Glad Freya seems to be feeling better tonight. I can imagine not feeling well with that giant foal wobbling around in there. Yuck, so never having kids. I'm getting excited for people to start posting their foaling pics on here, our herd got bred really late this year so I'll have no joy on that front for months and months! Can't wait to see your new little one, what do you think she's going to have?


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## dressagebelle

On the topic of mares showing weird signs of being pregnant, or getting ready to foal: We had a guy who's transporting some horses across the country put up 5 horses at our ranch for the night a few days ago. He apparently got two almost identical looking horses from the same farm, one was pregnant, and supposedly the other one never caught, so she was being sent back home. The pregnant one was already dropped off at her destination, so he was supposed to have the open one. Well, the next morning, I asked him if the mare was pregnant, had no idea she wasn't supposed to be, and he said that no she wasn't, that was why she was going back to Florida or something, and he came down with me with the whole "oh my gosh I hope I didn't drop off the wrong mare", we looked for the lip tattoo, and she had it, so she was the correct mare, but we both looked at her, and he agrees with me, that he thinks she's pregnant. She came from a sanctuary, and I guess the owner tried to have her bred, but she couldn't catch. We have no idea when she was bred, nor if she was ever bred before, but she had the belly going on, still not huge, but definately the noticable baby belly, not just fat, or a hay belly, and her udder was getting a bit more swollen. Having had a mare who had foaled previous to my getting her, it didn't look like the "normal" visible udder that a lot of previously bred mares get. So we've determined that either she's been bred a lot before, and just never got worked to get rid of the pregnant look, or she's definately pregnant, and when she was checked the vet or whoever did the check didn't pick up anything so assumed she wasn't. If she is pregnant, the owner is gonna have one interesting vet visit down the road when she wonders why her supposedly open mare is showing obvious signs of being pregnant. I think that Freyja is very cute. Definately want to see pics of the baby when he/she comes. BTW, I had a couple of smooth coated collies, unfortunately the woman I got them from wasn't as reputable of a breeder as she made herself out to be. I wasn't looking for a show dog, or anything like that, but I was looking for a decent pet, and her dogs were horrible, definately pretty, but inbred (found that out later), and not raised well. I love most big breeds of dogs, but I want ones that are actually bred to do the job they are supposed to do, and not just to look good in a show ring. The AKC does irk me a bit too, as so many of the dogs I see are bred to a breed standard for looks, but don't actually possess the ability to do that in which they were supposed to be bred for. Someday I want a Dobie, and an Irish Wolfhound.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ oh no, what kind of choke? Is your boy okay? Freyja's just fine, she just had a dodgy belly that night I'm sure, she's been fine since. I have no idea what we will end up with! I'm guessing a colt, just for no particular reason other than the vaguest "maybe" from the ultrasound *l* Though I certainly wouldn't mind a little filly at all. We shall see! Bummer for the ages wait on babies, though I have to say it was wiser for you that way, I REALLY wish Freyja was due much later in the year when all this cold weather is gone.

dressagebelle ~ hahaha I can imagine the transporter's panic, thinking "omg, I dropped off the wrong horse!" haha poor guy. 

As far as the collies - well, I could go on about at great length, but this is after all a horse forum. Basically you can't get an AKC registered collie these days that isn't inbred. They closed the collie studbooks in 1880, with 411 dogs. That means those same 411 bloodlines have been bred for 130 years - there's essentially no chance your dogs AREN'T inbred to some extent. I take a lot of issue to the concept of closed registry breeding, they will ultimately prove to be their own undoing, in my mind. If you want to learn more, here's an interesting (and opinionated) article on the subject by one of my very favorite bloggers: - Terrierman's Daily Dose -


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## tealamutt

Indy, my boy went without water for 24 hours (on going battle with BM... may be the last straw, lucky it wasn't colic instead of choke) and luckily I was there when the choke happened, recognized it for what it was and got him to the hospital right away. Well right away after letting forth a blood bath from tubing him (vet students gone WILD!). He should be ok, have to drive to the barn 4 times a day to give him his mash but he is being an angel so can't complain.

When I say "our" mares are bred, I mean the school's arab herd, which I do a lot of work with- just clarifying. We don't have the cold weather problem as it has been 50 degrees here (unseasonal) and all the mares have a lovely barn with heaps of hay and fresh bedding every day.

On the AKC front, oh, the opinions I could unleash on that organization. But as you said, this is a horse forum, and besides, all those inbred dogs are going to be my bread and butter some day. I always say all I need is one local bull dog breeder with a rich husband and my practice is SET!


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ Oh gosh I'm glad he is okay. I would be so mad at the BM - did you make her at least partially responsible for vet bills? I realise you are probably heavily discounted anyways with the vet but still *s* Driving to the barn 4 times a day takes a lot of time out of your day! I'm glad he's coming out of it okay.

Yeah, you and me both, on AKC. I showed all growing up and made a good solid break from them with my collies several years back, imported a working bred dog that had no recorded pedigree and brought her into my breeding program (GASP), in fact made her the FOUNDATION of a new breeding program (double GASP) and turned my back on any thought of registration. Started breeding to the 1875 breed standard instead of the current one, and funny thing is, all the 50 years since "latent" working ability in the breed came back out within a generation in my dogs. I also have not a single dog that isn't DNAed Normal-eyed/Non carrier for CEA, and I am happier with the homes my "non registered" dogs have gone to than ever before.


Update on Freyja: Day 315 of pregnancy (estimated)

I trimmed her feet today because I'm not sure how possessive she will get when the baby comes. After the trim she walked off VERY comfortably, not a single limp, so I am really pleased that we seem to be going in the right direction with her feet. I have an equine massage therapist lined up to work with her some, but again that will probably also wait until the baby is born and a little older. Her bag is getting fuller and fuller, much firmer and hotter than it has been, but still not at that "ready to pop" stage I've seen so many mares get to (I know not all do before they foal). I don't know how much of it is muscle loss from not being ridden or worked, and how much is muscle relaxation, but her whole back end is like jello. It's gross. I gave up on braiding (I'm so bad at it anyways) and just started vetwrapping her tail. I have bucketloads of vetwrap sitting around anyways, I just seem to have collected massive amounts over the years and never threw rolls away when I was horse-less. She's laying down a lot more, even in the day, and pretty much every time I check on her at night she is laying down, and doesn't get up. I don't know how much of that is she'd just rather lay down, and how much of it is she has gotten used to me sneaking in and peering at her, so doesn't feel the need to jump up and rummage through my pockets expecting a treat. Everything else is really the same, though there's nothing much left to change at this point! Milk test was skipped last night, but I'll check again tonight. Last reading she hadn't changed, still sitting at 110 Calcium and 8.2 ph. We're still just waiting it out.


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## tealamutt

Indy- nah, I didn't even approach them about the bill. The BO and the BM are vindictive, defensive people as I am finding and I don't think it is worth it to press the issue. And my bill is not NEARLY as discounted as you might think at the school, but my boy is alive and well and that is what really matters to me. Sure I have to pick up a 3rd job this summer to pay for it, but he is totally worth it to me. Have had nothing but grief since he's been back at the barn (still finding waters empty, BM not following my instructions which were *don't feed him, I'll take care of it*, sheesh you'd think she'd be able to listen when I ask her to do NOTHING, since that is what she does most of the time, etc.) so as of the 1st I will have him out at a new barn where several of my classmates and professors board so I have a little more confidence. I just went out to visit the place today and everyone was really friendly and had rave reviews. Plus I'm getting married this summer and will be gone for a month so I need him in a place where I can trust he'll be looked after.

I'm with you on keeping the best interest of the animals in mind when it comes to breeding, not just pumping out babies trying to make money or creating animals that are pretty but junk on the inside. AKC can blow it up their skirt!!

This is becoming a novel, but on the Freyja front, I bet a lot of the jello-muscle syndrome is from 2 things. One, that little foal is sucking a lot out of her right now. She (or he I suppose) is growing like a weed and no matter what you feed her, she just can't keep up. No worries, she'll gain it all back soon enough! And second, right about now her body is pumping a hormone called relaxin into her blood stream which loosens up the muscles and ligaments. It makes her pelvis a little more loose so baby can squeeze through it with more ease. It will be a while (weeks-months) after the delivery before she tightens back up, which is why it is not recommended to ride a mare for a while after she delivers. I agree though, that jello feeling... eeewww.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt ~ First of all, congrats on your upcoming wedding! How exciting :lol: Are you nervous? 

Glad you have found a good barn to move him too, that is so stressful when your horse is not getting the care they need, particularly if they have been ill and need special attention. I hope the new place works out much better for you!

I don't doubt that is the case with Freyja and her jello-butt. She's never really had a great amount of muscling anyways, she wasn't broke when I got her, and between working on her foot sore issues and working at getting her to a healthy weight, she's only had about 30 hours total riding time, and that includes breaking her. We've done a lot of groundwork, but as far as any real good muscle building, it just hasn't happened yet. Hopefully after the baby is born and weaned, Freyja can start getting some serious attention paid to getting her into good body form. She was so emaciated when I got her, obviously carrying and nursing Finn had taken pretty much everything out of her. I weaned him early to help her start getting weight on. I'm hoping with a good combination of the right feeds and hay, and the pasture coming out in the spring, we should be able to keep from taking too many steps back on her weight while nursing this foal.


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## Indyhorse

Update on Freyja, day 323:

At this point nothing has really changed. Still keeping an eye on her, but just kind of waiting it out for now. She hasn't had any real changes to her milk tests after the last big jump so I have only been testing her on alternate days. There's not a lot left to "change" on her as far as signs of preparedness other than for her udder to balloon out full scale (it continues to be about the size of maybe a grapefruit, only about half full maybe? She hasn't shed the hair off of it and it's not tight or particulary firm. Waiting for her to fill up and wax are about the only signs I can watch for at this point, since she has been so loose and the muscles relaxed in back for a month now. That and any attitude changes or being off her feed, which hasn't happened. I still don't think we are there yet, I think she might hold off until her original assumed due date (second week in March) or even longer.

On the plus side, she's now made it past day 320 so the majority of preemie fears are past! Yay for that!

Just keeping ya'll posted. :lol:


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## tealamutt

Thanks for the update on Freyja! Glad she is moving along nicely, even though I want those baby pics, I'd rather wait and have a healthy foal. Patience is a virtue right? I have been fulfilling my baby cravings by visiting a local rescue that took on some pregnant mares (one is a mini- have never seen a mini foal brand new before!!) so I may have some baby pics of my "own" to post before long. Definitely won't be as cute as Freyja's but I have yet to say "ugh that is an ugly horse" ever in my life so I'm not that objective I guess. Lol.

Got my guy all settled in at the new barn, it is *fantastic*, I love it there and he is getting fed twice what he had at the old place. He should be back in shape in no time (lost probably close to 100 lbs this winter and we only had 10 days below freezing).

Keep the updates coming!


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## Indyhorse

Yeah I'm definitely happier the longer the baby stays in there. I went through a preemie litter of puppies last year with my collie (we had a 7 day power outage at christmas and the stress put her in early labor, it was horrible) And while preemie pups are manageable, I would not want to take on a preemie foal for sure!

Ah!! you have to post the pictures, there's _nothing_ cuter than a baby mini.

I'm so glad things are working out at the new place with your boy! Gosh having them somewhere you feel they are safe is a big relief and load off your mind isn't it? It's so good to hear he's doing so much better.


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## Indyhorse

So I need everyone's help on a good name :lol: I really suck for coming up with good names. 

I kind of want to stick with the irish/gaelic theme with this baby, just to match his/her brother, Finn (Finnigan). It would be _fun_ to me if it started with an F (Freyja *norse, I know*, Finn) but it doesn't HAVE to since everything I am coming up with is awfully ugly *lol* The best I have found so far is "Ferris", which only brings to mind Matthew Broderick (and roughly translated, means "a rock". How Charlie Brown can we get? *lol*)

I'm figuring on a colt at this point but we don't know for sure, so please include any thoughts on filly names as well! Wide open for suggestions!


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## Citrus

That is sad that even on a nice forum like this one, a disclaimer needs to be used. However, having read some of the OP posts to others, I can also see why OP would be afraid that someone would jump down her craw just as she has done to others..... especially about responsible breeding.


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## Plains Drifter

Citrus said:


> That is sad that even on a nice forum like this one, a disclaimer needs to be used. However, having read some of the OP posts to others, I can also see why OP would be afraid that someone would jump down her craw just as she has done to others..... especially about responsible breeding.


Wow.. Just think this was uncalled for..specially on this thread. 
Air crap like this in private, IMO.

Anyways...back to names:

Kieran Gaelic meaning Black (boys)
Fiona Gaelic meaning white or Fair (girls)
Fallon (Irish) (boys)
Frasier (Scottish) (boy)
Farrin meaning "the land" (Irish) (boys)


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## Indyhorse

Citrus said:


> That is sad that even on a nice forum like this one, a disclaimer needs to be used. However, having read some of the OP posts to others, I can also see why OP would be afraid that someone would jump down her craw just as she has done to others..... especially about responsible breeding.



No, it's okay. The disclaimer at the front of the thread was posted particularly in the interests of my beliefs when it comes to responsible breeding. Not because I am worried about anyone "jumping down my craw." *My mare is a perfect example of irresponsible breeding*, and a big part of why I am so worried about her with this pregnancy, thus the creation of this thread in the first place. She was left in a pasture with the stallion, likely bred on her foal heat, and almost certainly bred back to back for the last 10 years. She is a lovely tempered but mediocre mare who really doesn't need bred at all, especially as the breeder I got her colt from was willing to "throw her in the deal free" rather than vet and feed her. I consider her essentially a rescue, and I am left picking up the pieces ie. dumping the _tons_ of money into vet care, farrier bills, feeding up and supplementation she has lacked for so many years during her use as a part of someone's "breeding operation".

And as a side note, I don't think there has been any instances of my "jumping down someone's craw" in terms of people breeding their horses. I have not given any opinions that weren't asked for, and I have only asked that people think logically and educate themselves when deciding whether or not to breed their animals, and to make sure they are breeding animals of quality rather than just utilizing their horses uterus because she happens to _have_ one. My mare, and the condition she was in when I got her, is a perfect reason why NOT to breed.


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## Indyhorse

Plains Drifter said:


> Anyways...back to names:
> 
> Kieran Gaelic meaning Black (boys)
> Fiona Gaelic meaning white or Fair (girls)
> Fallon (Irish) (boys)
> Frasier (Scottish) (boy)
> Farrin meaning "the land" (Irish) (boys)



Ahh, see, I love those. I do a search and come up with horrible things like Fearghul.

I like Frasier a lot, and Fiona too! Thanks lots


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## tealamutt

I love Fiona, and Fallon works for a boy or a girl- we have a gal in my class named Fallon and it is also the family name of some of my soon to be in-laws (marrying into a HUGE Irish clan). I'll pick the brains of my fiancee and his mom and see what other gaelic names we can dig up.

By the way, I LOVE the name Finn, almost went with that for my TB, but decided to save it for the warmblood I hope to own one day. Just seems like such a *substantial* name and Tanner is very finely put together. This is so fun, thanks for letting us share in the excitement of your upcoming foal!!


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## charlicata

Indyhorse said:


> And as a side note, I don't think there has been any instances of my "jumping down someone's craw" in terms of people breeding their horses. I have not given any opinions that weren't asked for, and I have only asked that people think logically and educate themselves when deciding whether or not to breed their animals, and to make sure they are breeding animals of quality rather than just utilizing their horses uterus because she happens to _have_ one. My mare, and the condition she was in when I got her, is a perfect reason why NOT to breed.


 
I just wanted to chime in here. Indy, you have been nothing but kind and understanding with me and my situation with Rosie. Even when it ended badly, you read my whining in the pm, and were very empathetic. I have finally come to peace with it by telling myself that God's will is God's will. The baby just wasn't meant to be. When the time is right, I'll go out and buy a baby. I don't want to even think about putting this type of stress on her again (even though I didn't do it in the first place)!! THANKS!!!!!!!


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## Indyhorse

Charlie, thanks hon  I honestly take no issue to people breeding their horses, if they do it for a purpose, educate themselves and have the finances to back up what they are doing. It's when people have a problem and refuse their horses vet care that I get upset. This was not you, and you and I could very easily have had the same result, because we came into our mares under pretty similar circumstances, so of course I'm empathetic. You've never whined. And I'm glad to be there for you.  Maybe we can get this foal sent down your way. (if Freyja ever has it!)


Tealamutt, I love the name Fallon, actually, I went to school with a girl who had that name. I am having trouble making it a "horse name" in my head, though. Some "people names" just right away fit as horse names for me, (like, Jack. Or Frank.) but others just don't feel right on a horse. I had a friend who named her horse Trevor and it always felt weird to me. (no offense to anyone who has a horse named Trevor!) Fallon is kind of like that for me as well, I guess because I was friends with someone who has had that name. Fiona, likewise, works for me, because I have never known anyone with that name, the closest being the character from Shrek *l* And cartoon character names always work for me *lol* (in fact, most my cats, and one of my dogs are named after cartoon characters) Actually, my ex was worse about it than I am, he had problems with Finn because he knew several. (grew up in England) I just got him to shut up by telling him I'd name the foal Pythagoras or Ethel.


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## charlicata

LOL...watch what you say. My hubby just read this and said "ROAD TRIP!!!" 

But seriously, I really do appreciate you. I'll speak to my mother-in-law. She actually is Irish. I know she'll have a few names.


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## Indyhorse

Charlie, that would be great! Though I'm feeling awful fond of the name Frasier :lol:


As for an update on Freyja (est. day 327):

The girl just wants me to pull my hair out. Seriously!!

I've gotten comfortable feeling we have a ways to go yet, so of course she has to keep me on my toes! In the last 12 hours, just since this morning, her udder has doubled in size, though it's not "tight full" and engorged, and there's no wax. What's in there is definitely more "milk" like, white and opaque. Still very thin though. Her milk test tonight took a HUGE jump up to 200 Calcium, and down to 7.2 ph. She ate her feed tonight very slowly, but did eat it. This is why I'm still up *l* I'll be setting my alarm clock several times tonight. The weather has decided to be warm and sunny the last two days, in the 40's anyways, it melted all the snow off, so I'm wondering if she just thinks it's spring and it's time. Weather Center is predicting daytime temps in the 40s on through the 12th, but it's not uncommon to get snow even in April and May around here. I've been hoping this weather holds so I can start leaving everyone else out at night, and just stall Freyja. It's still awful cold at night though (21 tonight). I went ahead and packed all my foaling stuff out to the barn, just in case. Keep your fingers crossed for me that she holds on a bit longer, and can give me at least ONE rested night in here somewhere, for goodness sake.


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## Indyhorse

Update on Freyja ~ (Est. day 332)

Well, I think we are about there! As of about 3 am, Freyja's udder is fully distended, engorged, and tight. Still no wax. Her vulva is still loose flopping in the breeze, and her back end has relaxed further so her anus now has that "sunken in" appearance. My vet happened to be servicing a neighboring farm this morning, and voluntarily stopped by to check on Freyja. (at no charge to me, he was just "in the neighborhood". Folks, it pays to have a good relationship with your vet!) He said her cervix is very soft and mushy, and maybe slightly dialated although he couldn't say for sure. He said he would expect her to foal within the next few days! I'll try to post some pictures of her up here in a bit.


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## Plains Drifter

Woohoo!! Come on Freyja!!! Would love pictures to be able to compare when the time comes for Comanche.


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## qtrhrsecrazy

I just found this thread!! Keep the updates comming and wishing you a safe delivery and a healthy happy foal!


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## Indyhorse

Drifter, here's some pics! Somewhat graphic, but hopefully will be helpful!

Qtrhrsecrazy, thanks! I'm hoping all goes well, my vet's on call and I have an emergency fund stashed in case something happens. 



Anyways, here's the pics:










(just cause she's cute)










In this picture you can really see the muscles have completely relaxed around her back end, they are like jelly if I poke at them. You can also see how enormous her poor belly is! She's gotten a bit ribby on me again in the last week an a half, but according to my vet there's no avoiding it at this point, no matter how much I feed her. The baby is just so big and taking so much out of her. She's currently on free choice all she can eat orchard grass/timothy/alfalfa mix hay, 3 qts Nutrena Safechoice am and pm, 1 cup Omegatin, and has just started on a Smartpak custom mix for joints and coat/hoofs.











Her udder is smaller in width than I have seen in other mares. It doesn't appear it will get that 'overstuffed couch' look that I am used to seeing, it's more enlarged in depth rather than width, long deep teats, but each mare is different. The vet did comment today the ligaments supporting the udder do stretch and wear out over time and that's likely why Freyja has just 'hanging' teats as opposed to a close to body, tight udder like I have seen before. It's very tight and firm to the touch, and even just nudging the teats causes them to squirt. Still no sign of wax yet, though. And yes, the poor girl is slightly lopsided in teat placement! It does appear the right teat is more filled in than the left, however I don't think they would be even regardless. Her 'milk veins' are about the size of my thumb in diameter and extend all the way across her belly and under her forelegs/chest area. She's also lost almost all the hair on what was before a very furry udder, in just the last 24 hours.











You can see in this picture how it appears that her anus has 'recessed' and sunken in with the further softening of her back end. Her vulva is long and soft, and gapes open when she takes a step.










Some light bloody discharge on the the edges of her vulva is caused by tiny blood vessels breaking due to pressure against the cervix. This is a good indication that the cervix has completely softened and began to dilate (which we already knew from the vet visit this morning anyways, but just for reference.) Note that a small amount of bloody discharge at this late stage in the pregnancy is normal. If you see large amounts of blood (like, dripping), or see it much earlier in the pregnancy, it is a potential problem and your mare should be seen by the vet.


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## lilkitty90

thanks for the pictures Indy! according to how your girl looks.. i think my girl has alot longer to go.. look how dropped that tummy is! i can't wait ti see pictures of the new little baby!


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## Indyhorse

Lilkitty, you are very welcome. Freyja's been in this state, with only a few changes, for the last month+ so I have kind of gotten used to her belly dragging the ground *lol* I know she is going to seem so terribly skinny to me after the baby comes.


Just for those of you who haven't seen pictures already, this is the stallion Freyja was bred back to (he is also Finn's sire). He's an 18.2 hh chestnut Shire, Paddy aka "Wandamere Patches". I don't know a lot about Shire bloodlines, but I believe the Wandamere name is pretty respected in the Shire world for producing some very good quality horses.


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## tealamutt

omg indy, I hadn't seen the sire yet. OMG!! he's gorgeous. I am a sucker for shires and he is a looker. We have a shire at school and his name is Seamus, such a good old man, he's our driving horse. Ok now I want the foal. Please package him up (or her) and fedex my way when he/she arrives!!


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt, heh heh, I hope Finn (and the next baby!) matures with half his daddy's looks  Finn, at 11 months old now, is still so babyish in appearance, it's hard to tell what he will turn out like. I've YET to ever see him in a nice slick coat, he went from his foaly fuzzies to his winter fuzzies with nothing in between, so I'm still waiting to see what color he will be for sure! *lol* I hadn't seen many chestnut Shires before Paddy, I had always seen them in Black and Gray, but I think it's very handsome. Here's another picture of him:










According to the breeder he's easier to handle than most her mares *l* 

Hopefully I'll have new baby pics to post here soon!


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## tealamutt

purrrr! I love his white walls!! Seamus isn't technically broke to ride, but he lets us swing up on his back and trot him around bareback. Talk about bombproof!! Too bad shires don't make super dressage horses and they probably wouldn't be super star jumpers either, oh well, I'll still take a foal out of Paddy there any day!


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## CheyAut

How exciting!


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## snazzydandy

Just found this thread,, will keep checking on your mares progress and of course the baby pictures..


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## Plains Drifter

How's Frejya this morning? Any news?


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## Indyhorse

Plains Drifter said:


> How's Frejya this morning? Any news?


No, nothing new. *lol* Just a lot of missed sleep on my part, but that's old news! Her udder is all bulgy and veiny and horrible looking, but she happily chowed down her grain this morning so I threw her outside with everyone else. I thought for sure last night she was ready, she spent a lot of time stretched out on her side last night, but nothing happened. Dang mares anyways. Keeping the camera on me, though, and I'll of course continue to keep a very close eye. I'll post word on here as soon as we have a a baby to announce, or if anything else changes for her! As of last night, her milk test is still holding steady at about 220 Calcium, and her ph is 7.0 I've seen mares go at a Cal of 200 or above, but have seen some test up as high as 400 before they foal. generally once the ph drops to 6. something or under, you know it's about time. I'll keep ya all posted!


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## tealamutt

she'll go when you run in the house to pee. Everytime.


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt *lol* Don't I know it! Or I'll come in the house to post to you guys "nah, nothing going on" and walk back out there to find a wibbly foal *l*


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## tealamutt

prime example of why you should pee in a dirty stall and get the barn wired for wi-fi.


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## Plains Drifter

How is Ms. Frejya today?


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## Indyhorse

Plains Drifter said:


> How is Ms. Frejya today?


Making me question my sanity *lol*

Nothing yet, at the moment she is in the pasture right outside my window. Laying down - she's laying down a lot yesterday and today, but no changes to her milk test in three days and nothing seems to be happening yet!


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## tealamutt

C'mon Frejya!!! I am definitely getting baby fever big time, don't know how you stand the tension!! The world's most beautiful mare (no offense Frejya) is at school right now for her 5th season of trying to get her pregnant. I have been working with her for about a year now and we have a pretty good relationship going, 

I am in love with her and pray that her owner will see she doesn't want to have a foal and he should just give her to me LOL! Her name is Matika and she is a Selle Francais. Most gorgeous horse ever to live, I want to see a foal out of her so much even if it means her owner will realize he should hang on to her. So far she has gotten pregnant 3 times and slipped the pregnancy every time. When she was first bred the owner cheaped out of the 21 day confirmation and missed twins. She aborted at 7 months and has been unable to catch ever since. *WHY* is it that mares you don't want bred catch when a stally just looks at them and the ones who really need to pass on their confo just stubbornly refuse to be mothers. ARRRRGHH. No point to this post, sharing my joy and frustration with Ms. Matika, the closest thing I have to my own mare. =)


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## Indyhorse

tealamutt said:


> C'mon Frejya!!! I am definitely getting baby fever big time, don't know how you stand the tension!!


*lol* I'm not. After a very frustrating night, including the vet being out here for four hours (getting to know him pretty well. Shame he isn't single!:wink and Freyja showing every textbook sign of going into labor, the vet finally concluded that the baby had likely shifted out of foaling position since the ultrasound, since it has been so long, and was probably getting back in position. 

I was so exhausted and drained after last night, I took the day off foal watch, had my neighbor peek on Freyja from time to time and keep my cell phone handy, and got myself off the property for a good five hours. Got my hair done, got my car tuned up. *lol* So no, I'm really NOT handling the tension very well! Today she's fine. Absolutely normal. I just put her back up in the barn for the evening, now I need to go slog through muddy pastures and find out where she discarded the tail bag she'd had on.







tealamutt said:


> The world's most beautiful mare (no offense Frejya) is at school right now for her 5th season of trying to get her pregnant. I have been working with her for about a year now and we have a pretty good relationship going,
> 
> I am in love with her and pray that her owner will see she doesn't want to have a foal and he should just give her to me LOL! Her name is Matika and she is a Selle Francais. Most gorgeous horse ever to live, I want to see a foal out of her so much even if it means her owner will realize he should hang on to her. So far she has gotten pregnant 3 times and slipped the pregnancy every time. When she was first bred the owner cheaped out of the 21 day confirmation and missed twins. She aborted at 7 months and has been unable to catch ever since. *WHY* is it that mares you don't want bred catch when a stally just looks at them and the ones who really need to pass on their confo just stubbornly refuse to be mothers. ARRRRGHH. No point to this post, sharing my joy and frustration with Ms. Matika, the closest thing I have to my own mare. =)



Aww, you will have to get pictures of her, I'd love to see her. I assure you Freyja takes no offense *lol* I'll be hoping and sending pregnancy vibes for Matika!


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## lilkitty90

indy was she sweating? about 2 mins before Snowflake foaled (she wasn't even rolling or laying down) she was steaming because she was sweaty. and she was having alot of dripping and her milk was definitely dripping and we took one glance at her and knew. and within 15 minutes we had a baby!


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## Indyhorse

lilkitty90 said:


> indy was she sweating? about 2 mins before Snowflake foaled (she wasn't even rolling or laying down) she was steaming because she was sweaty. and she was having alot of dripping and her milk was definitely dripping and we took one glance at her and knew. and within 15 minutes we had a baby!


Lilkitty, she was sweating on her flanks, neck, and chest, she wouldn't eat her hay, just pawed it all over her stall, she was having constant little soft bowel movements and urinating frequently as well, she was up, she was down, she was pacing and circling, turning her head to nip at her sides, like my vet said, every text book sign of labor other than the actual labor part *l* She would only drip milk when she was laying down and had a little pressure on her udder, it wasn't dripping when she was standing. She's fine, acting her normal self tonight, she just doesn't want me to get any rest *l* She wants me to wear myself out now so I sleep through her actual delivery.


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## lilkitty90

i was suprised i cought snowflake. and got to witness it. and she had it pretty early in the night. and i do know they feel stressed or threatened they can delay the birth unless they've already started delivery. thats why i was lucky snowflake had already started. but you know what your doing so i doubt you guys were doing alot of hovering. but if she was having those signs i personally would say it shouldn't take much longer than week! or it better not lol i am excited to see her baby! he/she is gonna be such a pretty little thing! what are you hoping for? colt or filly?


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## tealamutt

she's definitely getting ready Indy. That stubborn baby is going to make it's appearance soon, I can feel it!!! Oh and I can't post pics of Matika because she is a client horse, but I'll find some pics online of what she looks like, and the stud we AI with- he is shhhmmmmexxxy!! Good luck today, it could be the big day. I kind of hope she waits till St. Paddy's day, then you can really go overboard with the irish/celtic theme!! Though I bet that would make you nuts! lol.


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## Indyhorse

lilkitty, your timing was awesome! I had wondered if you would be able to see it or not since you don't keep Snowflake at home - that turned out too perfect! And your colt is so cute - have you named him yet?

I really have no preference between a colt or filly at all, just as long as it's healthy. The vet thought it *might* be a colt when he did the ultrasound, but he said not to hold him to that *lol* Either will be just fine by me!

Tealamutt, ooh, yeah, see I didn't think about that, can't post the pics, but she sounds gorgeous. Haha I already go overboard with the celtic/irish theme with my dogs, so might as well with my horses too right *lol* The names of the puppies in my last litter were:

~ VK's Brycen Athair Cailean ~ 
~ VK's Tiva Mathair Belle ~ 
~ VK's Iver Athair Cailean ~ 
~ VK's Isobel Mathair Belle ~ 
~ VK's Cait Mathair Belle ~ 
~ VK's Adiara Mathair Belle ~ 
~ VK's Reade Athair Cailean ~
~ VK's Tyra Mathair Belle ~ 
~ VK's Maizie Mathair Belle ~ 

I absolutely LOVE the name Iver (means Archer) and if I hadn't already used it on a dog I'd be thinking about that one *lol*


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## tealamutt

isobel- soooo pretty! I love Iver too and Cait. Some of my almost in-laws have very interesting traditional names: Sioban (sounds like shaVON), Deirdre, there's more but I'm on my first cup of coffee and can't remember any others. I better get to work on that. All 8 million of them are coming to the wedding in 4 months ACK!! Irish catholics, breed like rabbits. 

Of course I am partial to the name William (my fiancee). It means "determined protector" and is he ever, he's always stocking my freezer with game that he hunts, bringing loads of wood all split and stacked, he even bought me a gun and gave me his best dog Teala because he was nervous about me living alone up here at school. Anyway I'm off to class, going to keep checking back because I can't wait for fresh out of the oven baby pics!!


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## lilkitty90

me too teal i have a feeling it's going to be in the next day or so. but of course my feeling may be interrupted by the computer signal! yeah my timing was pretty good. i got the birth up on my thread if you wanna go watch it. lol my parents made me take the sound off from all the conversation lol. i decided to name him sparta! woo! i think that would be awesome if he waited till paddy's day. especially with the celtic names. i was hoping my boy would hold off untill today because it's my birthday. but he arrived a little early. oh well lol 

i am getting VERY excited for you and i can't wait to see this baby she has cooking!


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## ilovesonya

any baby yet?


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## tealamutt

ok indy, after no update and your pm... I am starting to FREAK OUT... hoping you're just having too much fun with a bundle of joy to keep us updated, please let us know what is new when you have a chance.


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## lilkitty90

yeah i am beginning to worry! i hope all i well and your absorbed with a beautiful baby!


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## tealamutt

Got a PM from Indy- no baby yet, storm knocked out her internet... also scared Frejya to death. Hopefully she calms down now and the foal can make it into the world soooooon!!


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## Indyhorse

Sorry for being slow to update everyone! We had a huge storm blow through the other night and it knocked out my internet tower. I've had no internet until this morning. Boy we sure forget how much we rely on this technology until it's gone!!

Freyja's fine. No baby yet. I was so sure that she was getting ready the other night, but when the storm him she got really upset and spooky in her stall, and since then she hasn't been giving me any indication anything more is happening. Absolutely nothing! Not even laying down very much yesterday and today, so I just don't know anymore. Starting to question if I am imagining the whole thing *lol* Her udder is still super full and tight, but she's gotten all clenched up around her vulva now, so I really don't know what to think on her. She has these weird big depressions up over her hip bones that showed up on thursday, like in front of them, above her flank, practically in her back. Tealamutt reassures me they are normal  But nothing else has changed. The baby is still kicking like mad when she eats and drinks, so I know it's fine.

Wait wait wait wait wait *sigh* I wish I was a person blessed with greater patience than I possess!


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## charlicata

And here I was thinking that you were just having too much fun playing with a new baby. Maybe she decided to let it bake a little longer after that storm. Prayers sent.


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## tealamutt

she reminds me of one of our arabians two summers ago. Poor dear went 3 weeks over her due date (we AI so we knew the day exactly) and was miserable in a 100 degree heat wave. She was fully bagged up the whole time, baby dropped waaaaay low so she had those depressions infront of her hips like you're talking about and would just stand at the feed bin looking so miserable. Her eyes were so dull. She finally went when a big storm came and knocked the heat down a notch, next morning there was a very cute and feisty colt running around. Fingers crossed Freyja is just being stubborn like that mare- she'll go sooner or later!


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## Indyhorse

Tealamutt - poor Freyja has got to be miserable. 

Update for today, (est day 341, tomorrow is her "official" due date)

Only one single solitary thing has changed for her. This evening as of 10 pm we have wax!! This is the first time it's shown up. Not sure if it's been there before though and dislodged, because she has been dripping milk whenever she lays down. But here's to hoping that means the poor girl will have that godzilla baby out of her soon!


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## Plains Drifter

Indyhorse said:


> Tealamutt - poor Freyja has got to be miserable.
> 
> Update for today, (est day 341, tomorrow is her "official" due date)
> 
> Only one single solitary thing has changed for her. This evening as of 10 pm we have wax!! This is the first time it's shown up. Not sure if it's been there before though and dislodged, because she has been dripping milk whenever she lays down. But here's to hoping that means the poor girl will have that godzilla baby out of her soon!


Woot!! Come on baby!!!  Hopefully that means Freyja's gonna have him/her soon!


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## kevinshorses

If you really want her to foal soon just leave overnight and don't check on her and she will have foal waiting for you when you get back.


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## Plains Drifter

LOL! Aint that the truth.


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## Indyhorse

kevinshorses said:


> If you really want her to foal soon just leave overnight and don't check on her and she will have foal waiting for you when you get back.



Haha, you don't know how VERY tempting that is! If I wasn't so worried about her having potential problems with this enormous baby, that is exactly what I'd do!

As of today, her udder has been on leaky faucet mode all day, even when she's just standing grazing. Up until now it has only leaked when she has laid down and had pressure on it. It's actually not as tight and full as it has been, due to the dripping. I had half a fear she would drip out all her colostrum, but my vet said she will continue to make more colostrum up until time of birth, so no concerns about it being "wasted". She's had sweaty sides all day, but it's also the warmest day we have had so far outside so I'm not attributing ALL that to discomfort. This morning she refused to leave her stall, even after everyone else was outside. She just kept turning around and going back in. So I let her stay in and left her on her own in there for a few hours. When I came back to try to put her out again she was quite eager to get out with everyone else, I guess she got bored and lonely without the other horses. *lol* 

Today is her "official" due date, assuming she was bred on her foal heat she's on day 342 today. I know Tealamutt has been rooting for a St Paddy's day baby! My best friend is staying over tonight and will be helping me out on baby watch so I can get some rest hopefully, that is if Freyja doesn't foal tonight! *lol* This friend isn't experienced with foaling mares, but she has helped me whelp every litter of puppies I've ever raised, and she's an ER nurse so she is helpful to have around at such times!

So, we will see what we will see!


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## lilkitty90

oh my goodness i hope she goes tonight and considering she is all leaky i'm having a feeling she might. and that would be totally awesome!


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## NittanyEquestrian

I just stumbled on this thread but it's great. Thanks for all the updates Indy it is very informative for people that gets a "woops" purchase. OR for those that are just nervous first time horse grandmothers/grandfathers! I too hope that she goes tonight or did go this evening. Good luck on a healthy baby and we need pics as soon as it dries off =P Oh yea and I so want that stud!! Where are you located? I would become a horse rustler for that gorgeous guy just gotta find me a trailer to fit him haha!!


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## tealamutt

well? WELL?? A paddy's day miracle??


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## Indyhorse

No paddy's day baby! Not even any real indication of anything, other than normal discomfort. Freyja just slept all night and I didn't. :? Bleh.


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## Indyhorse

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I just stumbled on this thread but it's great. Thanks for all the updates Indy it is very informative for people that gets a "woops" purchase. OR for those that are just nervous first time horse grandmothers/grandfathers! I too hope that she goes tonight or did go this evening. Good luck on a healthy baby and we need pics as soon as it dries off =P Oh yea and I so want that stud!! Where are you located? I would become a horse rustler for that gorgeous guy just gotta find me a trailer to fit him haha!!



Haha, thanks! I live in northern Indiana, but the stallion there resides in North Dakota!


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## Plains Drifter

I think Freyja is out to drive us all crazy with worry. I have a few cows that are doing that to me here, lol!


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## NittanyEquestrian

Ahh I'm in PA. Horse rustling in Indiana is doable...North Dakota not so much. =( He is just the most gorgeous draft stud I've seen in a long time. I'll fight ya for the baby! =P


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## tealamutt

Evil mare, give us your baby!!! And sorry ladies, but I have dibs on that foal, I'm already in love with the stud. Unless indy wants to give up Finn?? hahaha!


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## NittanyEquestrian

I'll fight ya for it!!!


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## tealamutt

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I'll fight ya for it!!!


 lol, ok, but I should warn you that I teach kickboxing... If it is a colt, he's yours- comprimise?


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## Indyhorse

NE, thanks, yeah the stallion is def. a looker. I've looked up some of the horses in his pedigree, they are some very nice looking horses. I've seen a handful of horses from the same breeder (Wandamere) around that are also all very nice. His pedigree on allbreed is incomplete though, only have the top, I have his full pedigree (I have a copy of his papers) should I fill the dam side in myself? allbreed is kind of like wiki, isn't it?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/wandamere+patches

Tealamutt, kickboxing, really? I sure wouldn't want to tangle with ya :lol:

Haha you guys are funny. I'm not sure I want to part with the foal, I kinda dig the idea of having a matched set with him/her and Finn (if it comes out looking anything like Finn!) But if I DID decide to part with the foal, I'm pretty sure I promised charlicata first chance at it *lol*

As for an update for today, Freyja's just decided to pretend she isn't pregnant anymore *sigh* I don't know what's going on. Everytime I checked on her last night, as far as I could tell she barely even laid down all night long. She's just walking around the pasture enjoying the grass coming up and acting completely normal. Her water intake has come way up, but I assume that is in part due to her udder being so full, and leaky, she just needs that. But as for anything else - nothing! I'm probably driving her crazy, charging out into the pasture during the day every time she stretches out on her side to sun for a bit, but goodness gracious, she looks like if she lays down too hard she'll pop. The only real change at all other than the wax the other day (which she had again last night, but by this morning it was gone again) is the "herd dynamics" between the four of them seem to be changing a little. It's always been kind of like, two groups of two. Finn and Freyja would be together, always very close, and then Claymore and Misty were inseparable. They would still generally move between the three pastures together as a group, but grazing patterns and spreading out within the pastures they would group in these two pairs. Howver, the last few days it's been Freyja and Claymore separating off from Finn and Misty. I think this is more related to activity level right now though, Finn's in his real rough-housing, neck biting, gallop across the pasture with his tail flipped over his back and mind full of mischief stage, which Misty is always game to join in a good chase and play halter tag, but Freyja's not up for more than quiet grazing, and Claymore seems to want to be lazy and stick with her. Claymore's getting worked every day now, trying to burn some of his chubbiness off and get him in shape, so I think he just has less attitude to expend in the pasture. :twisted:


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## Indyhorse

BTW, I posted a couple of pictures of Finn (who is Freyja's '09 colt out of the same stallion) I took this morning, FINALLY got some recent pictures of him after having nothing but his 7 month old pictures on here.  http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/recent-pictures-finn-50440/#post580575


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## Indyhorse

Pics of Freyja from today. Does it look to anyone else like her belly is changing shape again? It looks raised up or sloping up in the back towards her teats than it was before.

Also, excuse her messy hocks, she's had loose stools for the last 2 days again.


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## NittanyEquestrian

It definitely looks like her baby is starting to migrate to the rear end! This is a good sign. She is supposedly around her due date now right? I would guess definitely within the next 2 weeks you will have a new one on the ground!


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## Indyhorse

NE - *L* I thought the baby looked farther back in the older pictures. It looks to me like it has moved more forward towards her front legs, or higher up towards her back. Ahhh IDK it is all making me crazy and I am probably seriously over-studying her. *lol* Yes, her due date was March 17th, but it was only an estimation. She was left in the pasture with the stallion, and Finn was born April 1st, so that due date was based upon the assumption she would have been bred back on her foal heat, around April 9th or 10th. The lady I got her from "never saw them breed" and there for a while I had hoped she wasn't bred. But she might have been bred later than her foal heat, in fact could have been bred anytime from April 9th or 10th to as late as June 27th (which is when she and Finn were removed from the pasture with the stallion and put on the trailer to be shipped out here.) I just assumed, big as she had gotten so early and so many signs she has shown so very early on, that she had to have been bred back on her foal heat. But that could certainly be wrong too! 

I've just never seen this before, I have delivered plenty of foals but was always called to come give a hand once labor was started, I've actually never experienced my own horse going through all the stages leading up to the actual birth (and never will again, darn it, this is seriously making me crazy!) I knew the signs to watch for, but in the mares I have seen it's always been pretty reliable in the last couple weeks before birth! Freyja's belly dropped and she started bagging up January 28th! Thankfully she didn't deliver too early, in spite of my preemie panic, but now I'm questioning if she is due later still. Ahhhh! I will be bald by the time this foal comes. *lol*


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## NittanyEquestrian

Haha...breathe...breathe....breathe...I was talking her baby being farther back in relation to the last set of pictures before the last set (I think). Early on it looked farther back but she might have had a little edema too which might have masked where the foal actually lay. Or I might be on crack...who knows? lol Anywho...she's already held off almost 2 months with these obvious signs of preparing for labor so I doubt she can hold out much longer. But watch her hold out just to prove us all wrong!! I'm still going to lock in my guess at somewhere in the next two weeks. We will see how good I am at internet diagnosis =P (Don't bet your last dollar on me though!!!! =P)


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## tealamutt

Indy, are you bald yet?! Lol, tell that lovely evil mare she's got a lot of people on the line here... tick TOCK!


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## Plains Drifter

How's the baby watch? Any updates on Freyja?


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## Indyhorse

I'm staring at her through the window right in front of me here at the computer. Absolutely nothing. Her udder is continuing to sell, impossibly tight and hard, so hard I'm starting to have concerns about mastitis. There's no abnormal heat thought, and she doesn't act like it's bothering her at all when I handle it. She holds her leg out of the way while I do milk tests *l* The results of which have remained unchanged this week. Not even a decimal point difference. I only have about a weeks worth of test remaining, if she doesn't have it soon I'll try out Chey Aut's pool test method because I'm not buying another Marecheck pack, those things are expensive!

But other than that, absolutely nothing at all. She's just grazing right now, happy as can be, not a care in the world, which she has been doing every day. She has been laying down every night, and certainly has difficulty breathing when she lays down but that's entirely baby pressure on her lungs, I'm certain.

I think she forgot she's pregnant. :evil:


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## tealamutt

ha! we use water test strips to test our arabian herd. All you're looking for is calcium levels and pH reading so no need to go for the expensive "brand name" mare test kits! Should have mentioned that to you sooner, sorry!


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## Indyhorse

tealamutt said:


> ha! we use water test strips to test our arabian herd. All you're looking for is calcium levels and pH reading so no need to go for the expensive "brand name" mare test kits! Should have mentioned that to you sooner, sorry!


No, that's okay, I knew that from Chey Aut mentioning it before, and posting about how to use them. The only thing I don't like about going to the water test kits from the Marecheck I use is the actual gradient levels. The water kit, to the best I can tell, gives you a color range and you pick the color box that matches the closest - and while pH seems the same, the calcium (total hardness, from what I gather) is only listed by 100's. The kit I use fills in individual boxes, and lists Cal. by 10's all the way to 500. I've gotten used to knowing when she has minor changes, of just 10 or 20 difference, so it will feel less accurate for me. Still, it's much, much, MUCH cheaper!


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## NittanyEquestrian

If you ever have another foal, do what I do. Buy the cheap ones for when they start to show signs and then when it looks imminent you switch to the expensive ones. It's still a balancing act for when to switch and sometimes we overdid the cheap ones and got babies haha but we weren't complaining!


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## Indyhorse

NittanyEquestrian said:


> If you ever have another foal,



ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? I am NEVER getting another preggo horse again after this, and definitely not going to breed any myself!! *lol* Not a chance in h*ll!! :lol::lol:


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## NittanyEquestrian

HAHAHA but you don't want a million cute little babies running around just because your mare has a uterus? Are you NUTS!!!! =)


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## lilkitty90

haha indy thats what mom said when sparta was born. but i found it very rewarding. then again it wasn't me shelling out the money!

i really think frejya is holding out for something. she's driving me crazy i can't even comprehend how far off of crazy you must be!


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## Indyhorse

Freyja update, est. day 351

Absolutely nothing to report. :roll: I don't get it. For having shown every indication of being ready to foal for nearly two months, she'd definitely not in any hurry. Where she has been so loose and swollen in the back end has seemed to gone the other way now, she's staying clenched and closed up tight. Getting ready to have the vet out to check her again soon, since last time he had checked her he thought she appeared to be dilating - but now she's all clenched up and no longer loose in her vulva area. Everything else remains the same, tight full udder with opaque milk, testing in the 200s calcium level and around 7.2 pH every night. Baby kicking the bejeebus out of her so I know it's fine. But absolutely no new signs of impending labor, she seems content to be stuck at this stage forever. I really want to stop bringing my other horses into the stalls at night and leave them pastured, the weather is fine for it, but Freyja has been jumpy in her stall ever since that bad storm, if I leave them out and only bring her in. :roll: Just wish this could all be over and done with now!


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## NittanyEquestrian

Isn't her stall facing the outside? Can you let them out and let her wander in and out maybe? Just a thought. Anywho...def get the vet out but check random things like the weather forecast for the next week or month. Or read a farmer's almanac or something. Sometimes they know something that we don't know or don't notice. If the baby's fine and she seems semi-content then drink a few strong drinks and get with the program!! =P If it wasn't such a long drive, I'd come up and join you!


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## Indyhorse

Unfortunately, the way my barn is set up, (it's an old dairy barn) I don't have the option of open stalls. The horses all come in through one entrance, and are then put in their individual stalls. Freyja's stall does actually face towards the pasture with a window out where she can see the other horses if I left them out - as long as they are in that first pasture anyways. I could remove the window as well. But when they travel to the second and third pastures, they are all the way on the other side of the property from the barn, well out of line of sight and nearly out of earshot. That's when she takes to hollering. 

Could certainly use some people who are more patient than me to help out with waiting! *lol* My friend has been coming and staying over every few nights - but she is far less patient than I am. *l*


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## NittanyEquestrian

I think it's time to get her when she's laying down and start jumping up and down to pop the baby out!!! It's called Trampoline Birthing...J/k

But seriously, what is she waiting for? Maybe she wants an easter baby...if so you need to name it like lilly or spring or bunny or chick for a girl! I don't know any easter boy names...except Peter and that seems odd for a horse. =P


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## Indyhorse

I am wondering something - one of you could probably tell me because I don't know enough about horse's gestational development, but I have a little bit of a theory that's been rolling around in my head the last few days. A mare's cue from her body to foal is when the baby reaches a certain maturity level, right? That's why you have such a wide range of days for pregnancy, why it varies from breed to breed and colt to filly, etc. Biologically it's part of the process that is still "wild" - the foal needs to be at a developmental level at birth to be capable of standing, walking, and running shortly after birth, and this to some extent dictates when the foal is actually born.

Is there any factors known about mares that are in very bad shape and having limited food source when they are bred delaying the development of the foal? I mean, to my mind, it was a miracle the breeding took, and a second miracle she didn't lose the foal early on, with the shape she was in. Could it be that gestational development was delayed in the early months of her pregnancy, due to her environmental factors, and that is causing her to have a longer gestation now, although her body is "ready", the foal is not? So although she has obviously been prepared to foal for some time, gestationally the foal is delayed and waiting until "it" is ready?

Weird thoughts that go through your head when you are going on far too many weeks of little to no sleep.


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## HorseLove4ever

oh my god baby!! just be born alreaady!


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## Plains Drifter

IH-
Wish you had a cam for her..I think we'd all be stuck to it watching!


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## Dolly

I have just found this site and thread and read through all 17 pages and am gutted that the foal has not arrived!!!!

I really enjoyed reading through everyones posts and fully expected a result.

My fingers are crossed that it happens soon.


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## Indyhorse

Dolly, I know, it's driving me crazy. She can't go on much longer, it just doesn't seem possible. I keep thinking, she'll have it next week, she'll have it next week, but now here we are starting April and she had her belly drop and her udder filled January 28th! Crazy horse.


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## travlingypsy

Oh man, dont you want to just go up to her and pop her belly! 
Do you think she could have been waiting for all those storm/twister things to come and go? I know we've been having really bad wind storms. And those tornados were in the east


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## satrider

I think I would be a little antsy myself. Hope the foal comes soon. and Good Luck


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## Indyhorse

*Freyja update - est day 359 of pregnancy*

FINALLY have a big change to report!

Tonight's test has shown a huge change in Freyja's milk. The milk has very obviously changed from the translucent white, but thin and runny that it's been the last couple weeks, to a thick, syrupy, opaque white. Definitely colostrum. The milk test has jumped from yesterday's test of Calcium 220 and pH 7.2 to tonight Calcium of 1000 (the highest my testing kit goes) and pH of 6.0 (the lowest my test goes) and it changed instantly. She is waxed, but she has been waxed for over a week so that's not a reliable factor with her. She also only ate half her feed.

Tonight might be the night!


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## Plains Drifter

Go Freyja!!!!


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## Plains Drifter

Do you have any recent pictures of Freyja for reference? (anus, vulva and bag?)


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## CheyAut

She's gonna foal tonight!!! Can't wait to hear about your new foal and see baby pics!


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## westonsma

Well? I just read all the pages of this thread, DYING to know! Any news?


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## lilkitty90

oh my goodness!!!!! i'm so excited for the report today! freyja better have popped that foal out i am so ready to see what s/he looks like!! = D


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## NittanyEquestrian

I TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE AN EASTER BABY!!! ....sorry I just had to get that out. Anywho...we want updates and PICTURES darn-it!


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## tealamutt

Indy!!! Pics!!!! Stop cuddling that cute thing (assuming it has arrived...) and update us!!


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## travlingypsy

zomg! What is it?!?! I cant wait to see it


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## Plains Drifter

I sure wish she would update us. It was the first thing I looked for this morning before Church, the first thing after church. I'm getting worried.


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## lilkitty90

i'm sure if it's here all has went well and she is just to busy cuddling the foal and giving it tons of hugs! lol but i keep checking back every 15 mins or so to look for an update lol


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## tealamutt

Indy, I am officially demanding an update. Now I am getting worried (it is my nature afterall). We need pics and to hear that mom and baby are well!


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## lilkitty90

yeah i'm with tealamutt. i'm definitely beginning to worry! i hope all is well


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## Indyhorse

Ahh, I swear I haven't been out baby cuddling! Can't be - somehow, impossibly, still no baby. :-( I was in the barn most the night last night, and in the house most the day today with a sick kiddo. (Poor guy, he was sick on Christmas day too, he's had bad luck). What little extra time I have had has been split between keeping an eye on Freyja and attending to the other animals. This is the first chance I have had to turn the computer on all day, and it's just to post you guys a quick update before heading back out to the barn *lol*

So, all night I was so sure Freyja was going to have that baby - she paced, sweated, lay down and rolled, got up again, didn't eat, but nothing happened. :evil: 

I did finally let her out in the pasture this afternoon for a few hours, and she walked around and rolled but that's it, didn't even really want to graze. She's back in the stall tonight, sweating and pacing, and the milk test has run out the same tonight, I tested 4 times, 2 times from each side of the udder, just in case, all results were the same. She kept forming big chunks of wax all day that would then fall off, she'd drip milk for a bit and then more wax would form. This evening, she doesn't seem to be getting any more wax, but she's dripping milk much heavier than before. I can't even comprehend she will go past tonight, but she's been keeping me hanging on for ages. 

Plains Drifter, I did take pictures, both last night, and just now, so I'll post both.

Day 359 of pregnancy:
Last night, udder, shortly after doing the milk test so wax is just starting to reform:









Last night, vulva, long, loose, gaping a bit:










Day 360 of pregnancy:
Around 2 pm today, wax on one teat and milk dripping on other teat:










Tonight, belly picture:









Tonight, udder sweaty, dripping milk, veins distended:









Tonight, vulva, still very elongated and loose, but not as swollen as last night:









Dried milk on legs:


















Okay, so back out to the barn for me, to continue my vigil! I CAN'T imagine she can go on much longer!


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## travlingypsy

Wow she is REALLY wanting to keep that baby forever! I hope all goes smoothly tonight


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## Plains Drifter

She's still got an hour to go to have an easter baby!!! Thinking of you. Hope all goes well!!


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## tealamutt

dear GOD look at those milk veins. Poor momma. Thoughts and prayers for a safe foaling- hoping to wake up to a positive update Indy!!


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## CheyAut

I'm shocked she didn't have it last night!!! But that's how it was with Jewel, I was SURE she'd had him Friday night (two Friday's ago) and she held off until Saturday night. So it's GOTTA be tonight! And darn it, I wish I could see the pics you posted, darn work computers blocking stuff


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## HowClever

Gosh I'm excited!! Have been following this thread for ages now and so can't wait to see this baby! Good luck Indy, I hope tomorrow sees you with a brand new baby!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Indyhorse

_IT'S A FILLY!!!!_

Born at 1 am April 5th. Freyja went down and started pushing at 12:43 am, and the baby was all out except for back legs by 1:00 am. 

I mainly stayed out of the stall other than to pull the sac back to uncover her head once most of her was out, Freyja did a great job all on her own! After the baby was out except for the back legs, Freyja took a good rest for just under a half hour. Can't hardly blame her, that lil girl is HUGE! They baby started flopping around trying to stand, got her way around to Freyja's side and Freyja decided it was time to wake up and start tending her. Licked her for a bit and then stood up. They cord stayed attached when Freyja stood, but the baby broke it shortly after trying to stand herself. She was on her feet by 1:45. I went in and toweled her off a bit, iodined the navel and cleaned up the stall. (I might have squeezed a few cuddles in at this point.)Then I just stayed out and waited for her to nurse and Freyja to deliver the afterbirth - the two coincided, in the end. :lol: Took the baby a good while to find what she was looking for, she circled mama for a while trying to find the milk bar. She got there in the end though!

She appears she will be black, white socks on the rear and a blaze!

So, of course, pictures!!


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## Indyhorse

A few more pictures!


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## HowClever

WOOT WOOT!!!! Congtratulations Indy & Freyja. She's gorgeous! I love her big blaze!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dolly

OMG those pictures are amazing - thank you for posting them. Congratulations to you all..


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## CheyAut

WAHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Knew she HAD to go tonight, after not doing so last night! CONGRATS!!! Can't wait to see the photos at home!


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## Plains Drifter

Yipppeee!!! Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!! She's beautiful!!! Sure hope you don't mind giving your camera a workout, we're going to need lots of pictures of her!!! So...do you have a name for her?


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## Indyhorse

Thanks everyone!

Mama and baby are both doing great this morning. I went out to feed everyone and turn Finn out (I had kept him in his stall last night so Freyja wouldn't get stressed on her own) The little filly is nursing well and Freyja seems fine (though Freyja looks horribly skinny, but definitely had an appetite today!) Going to give them a few hours one on one time, and kind of let Freyja guide me as to when she is ready to go outside. 

Anyways, here's some pictures from this morning! Plains Drifter, no worries *lol* I'm sure you'll all get sick of looking at her before I stop taking pictures! I'm still in the air about names. I like Fiona, and Faun, and Fleta, still mulling it over. Suggestions are welcome!


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## HowClever

MY GOSH! look at that chest! haha


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## Plains Drifter

I just can't get over how completely solid colored she is..considering she's a paint! I love the second picture of her. I like the name Fiona. Good luck with names..I know I will have a heck of a time deciding when its my turn.


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## skittle1120

Congrats! She's a beauty...


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## Indyhorse

Howclever ~ *lol* Well you can certainly tell she's a draft cross!

Plains Drifter ~ Well, the baby is only 1/4 Paint, and 3/4 Shire, so not really surprising that she took on the Shire color pattern, it's a dominant coloration and I already knew Freyja wasn't homozygous for tobiano. I'm actually really pleased. When I emailed pictures to my mom this morning, first thing she said was "oh gosh, she's marked just like the pictures you always drew!" When I was a little girl, every horse picture I drew was a black horse with a blaze and socks on back.


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## HowClever

No doubt about that Indy haha, she's certainly well built


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## Plains Drifter

Indyhorse said:


> Plains Drifter ~ Well, the baby is only 1/4 Paint, and 3/4 Shire, so not really surprising that she took on the Shire color pattern, it's a dominant coloration and I already knew Freyja wasn't homozygous for tobiano. I'm actually really pleased. When I emailed pictures to my mom this morning, first thing she said was "oh gosh, she's marked just like the pictures you always drew!" When I was a little girl, every horse picture I drew was a black horse with a blaze and socks on back.


Aww...I'm tickled that she's exactly what you wanted!! Congrats!


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## lilkitty90

oh my i'm ashamed i didn't check back last night as i knew it would happen! but yay! lol she's so lovely and what a huge blaze! i love her mousy grey color it's too adorable. she almost looks like Sparta when he was first born.


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## Wallaby

Awwww! Congratulations Indy and Freyja! That is one heck of an adorable baby. I really like the name Fiona for her, it just feels like it fits, to me. Good luck choosing! I'm sure whatever you choose will be beautiful. 
I love her socks too. Baby horses are so cute, I don't even know.


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## NittanyEquestrian

Tooo cute!! And I vote for Fiona. It just seems to fit for me. I'm glad you had your baby finally and can get some sleep! Give her a few cuddles for me!


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## trailhorserider

Congratulations!!!!!! What a beautiful baby!!!! 

I am so happy for you guys! 

Did you do any imprinting or handling of the foal? Just curious because I am expecting a late summer baby and it will be my first foal. I already ordered several baby books, lol! 

Again, congratulations, she is gorgeous!


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## Indyhorse

Trailhorserider ~ I am going to try to word this carefully so as not to start a debate *lol* I did handle the baby, yes. I don't really go strictly by Robert Miller's imprinting plan, because I'm not a big fan. I waited until AFTER the baby nurses, instead of before, and I handled her, did some desensitizing her to touch, picking up her feet, touching her all over, brushing her with a soft face brush, handling her ears etc, but I don't start pulling out tarps and paper bags, vacuums and clippers, I don't stick my finger in her anus or her mouth, I don't hold her down etc. There are plenty of studies that show if you handle a foal before it nurses, it views humans as friendly and will approach. But studies show basic handling of a foal AFTER it nurses yields the exact same results, so I personally believe the "by the book" approach of Miller's to be a little over-rated. I handled this filly for about 15 minutes after she nursed, and again for about 10 minutes after the second time she nursed. Just now, they are turned out in the pasture at the moment, I went out to take pictures of her, and she was happy to leave her mom's side and come explore the camera and me with her lil rubbery lips, and was following me when I turned to leave, a scowling Freyja trotting after her calling her back. I know that the theory behind imprinting is thought highly of, and while I believe to desensitize a foal in that early window is important, I also believe birth is a traumatic enough event for one day.  But that's just IMO.


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## NittanyEquestrian

Bravo!! I am in total agreement about the imprinting debate. HOWEVER, I'm mad that you were taking pictures and didn't post them!! BAD INDY! *slaps Indy on the wrists*


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## Indyhorse

NittanyEquestrian said:


> Bravo!! I am in total agreement about the imprinting debate. HOWEVER, I'm mad that you were taking pictures and didn't post them!! BAD INDY! *slaps Indy on the wrists*


Hey! Gracious girl I gotta get them off my camera and uploaded to photobucket first *lol* She's still looking a bit weak and low in her hind pasterns, I am hoping some pasture time and free movement will help tighten them up. She is doing the random 10 foot charge, bucking and kicking and acting like a normal foal, so I'm hoping it's just these slow-to-get-it draft genes *l* Here they are (the pre-slimed pictures anyways! the ones I took after she wandered over and taste tested my camera didn't turn out *lol*) :


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## Indyhorse

Sorry for the double, just mentioning, all my friends around home, and all of you guys on here, were all pretty much in agreement, so Fiona it is!


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## trailhorserider

I don't even have the book yet, so I'm not sure what Dr. Miller recommends, but I think I will handle my foal similar to what you did. That sounds about right. 

It was only $10 and I figure if it teaches me even one thing that helps my foal be easier to handle later on in life, then it is $10 well spent!

I asked my vet his opinion about imprinting, and he said basically the same thing, it is fine but don't overdue it!


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## eventerdrew

Love the name Fiona! So glad you picked that!

I've been following the thread but I got so anxious that I didn't want to post until she popped out baby Fiona. 

Momma and baby look in fine form! What a BIG girl she's going to be. Gotta love the draft crosses


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## travlingypsy

Congrats! She is so adorable, I love her lil butt n tail. Fiona is such a perfect name for her to. Cant wait for more pics


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## charlicata

CONGRATS Indy!!!! She is absolutely beautiful!!! It makes me wish that Rosie could have carried through on hers. Personally though, I'll be happy with having Rosie healthy and looking at Fiona's pictures :0)


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## lilkitty90

what a lovely girl! and she definitely looks Drafty! lol i "imprinted" same as you indy. it was however before he stood as he took about 2 hours to stand, and we had to help him. but he is very gracious about everything even lifting feet now. except he doesn't like having his fronts lifted oddly. and i love the named Fiona! her and Finn are going to be too pretty as a Driving team. have you thought about that? they would look pretty good together.


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## tealamutt

squeeall! Oh Indy, she's gorgeous. So glad she and momma are doing well! So worth the wait and what a good girl for having her while you were there to catch the photos. Amazing, well done all of you. I adore her already. I'll be there in 5 months to pick her up! Lol! congrats!


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## tealamutt

and PS I LOVE fiona for a name. my god she's HUGE!!!!


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## NittanyEquestrian

Haha sorry Indy...I'm like the picture monster! But yea...If she came out chestnut like Daddy I would have stolen her. She's black so I guess Tealamutt can steal her, since she called dibs first, but I get to be an aunt!

AND...to comment on her pasterns. I wouldn't worry about them. I used to foal out Belgians all the time and halter broke, broke to ride, etc. The whole way through. And sometimes it would take up to a week for them to tighten up and look normal in their hind legs. They have such LONG legs that they are very "Gumby" for a while =) As long as she's happy, eating and running around I wouldn't worry. And besides, I'd rather have flexible pasterns than straight ones any day =)


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## Plains Drifter

Aww...love her name! Happy "Birth" Day Fiona.


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## Kay

so cool, such a beauty, congrats!!


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## tealamutt

NittanyEquestrian said:


> She's black so I guess Tealamutt can steal her, since she called dibs first, but I get to be an aunt!
> 
> AND...to comment on her pasterns. I wouldn't worry about them.


Yay! Fiona is MINE!!! and I agree, I'm not concerned in the least about those pasterns. One of my favorite arabian mares threw the cutest colts two years ago who had a very "windswept" appearance so we called him Forrest (for his crooked legs). Today he stands proud and tall with legs as straight as can be.


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## Indyhorse

Just a few updated pics of Fiona and Freyja!

I am so, so very glad Freyja looks to have held on somewhat through her pregnancy and not taken too many steps backwards from all the work I did getting her in shape last fall. She's a bit ribby, but nothing like my nightmares from the last few weeks were convincing me she was going to be! She needs some conditioning, for sure, that will come this summer, but she's not the horribly sickly/underweight she was when she got here last year with Finn. Another plus - she's been getting a LOT of exercise chasing the lil squirt around the pasture (if she's awake and not nursing, she's galloping. Pretty much all the time!) and so far, Freyja's not limping a single step!

Anyways, on to pictures!




























(no, I didn't poke her and wake her up! *lol* Just waited until she woke on her own. She does look grumpy, though!)



















(NE, Tealamutt, you two were right, pasterns look fine now! I knew they probably would be, she was never actually walking on them, but they were so low. 2 days of pasture time and moving around made all the difference though!)




























Fiona's halter (and Freyja's, for that matter) both come off when they are inside, they just go on while they are in the pasture. Fiona's already used to having it put on, she sticks her little nose right in it. She'll lead a couple steps, though I haven't pushed beyond that yet. Her baby feet haven't come off yet, but she's already used to getting her feet picked up and brushed off with just the brush side of the hoof pick (it's a habit all my horses are used to, they come in the barn and stop and wait in front of their stall for me to come pick their feet before they go in). She's doing great, very playful, full of mischief, and driving her mother crazy. I have turned them out with the rest of the horses, and although Freyja doesn't let the others close enough for a good sniff, she is otherwise content to be with the group. Claymore, Finn, and Misty are terribly curious, but will not risk Freyja's wrath. It's helpful, I suppose, that in herd dynamics Freyja has been the lead mare, none of the others will push enough to **** her off *lol*. Finn is feeling horribly rejected and neglected, so he's been getting some extra attention from me.


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## CheyAut

Adorable! And HUGE ears lol!


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## Indyhorse

I know, huh, she looks like a little mule baby! Finn was the same way though, with huge ears, he STILL hasn't quite grown into them!


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## Plains Drifter

Omgosh! She's just a little love! I love her halter! The 7th picture of Freyja is gorgeous! She looks so good for just having a baby.


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## ilovesonya

Congrats! Fiona is soo cute! She looks so sweet! I love her colour! Freyja looks like a different horse without the big belly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snazzydandy

congrats on the beauty... she is a doll.. my computer died back in march and i was finally able to get back on today.. had to check and see if she had arrived yet... Congrats again.. love the name..


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