# Gave up on camping without a pack horse



## SailorGriz

Since I started riding last fall I figured I could go "backpack lite" camping with my horse and carry everything I need on him. One small problem: it doesn't all fit. It all fits in the luggage I have for him, but it's such an unstable load that I'm not sure it's worth it.

It'd be fine for an overnight, maybe a weekend, but for a longer trip? Forget it. Of course, part of the problem is that now I'm older than I once was and insist on more Creature Comforts, even when camping.

So, a pack horse is in the works. Hopefully this coming weekend I'll be getting a 4 horse trailer so I have room to haul a pack horse along with our two saddle horses. Mrs. thinks that our little Arabian can make a fine pack horse, with some training. He's 25 years old so he's pretty settled down but he still seems to have plenty of energy and endurance. Last weekend he carried a friend (200 pounds total load) for 8 miles up and down hills, mostly in the snow. A 150 pound pack should be no problem for him--especially without the snow!

So, time to start training him. As soon as we can haul three horses to the trailhead we'll start with his riding saddle and some loaded saddle bags and see how well he ponies on a trail. If he seems to be working out, we'll get a Decker pack saddle and panniers and try to have him ready for a serious trip by early summer. 

'Cause one way or another, I'm taking some serious pack trips this summer!


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## QOS

LOL yeah....SailorGriz...you have to haul a bunch of stuff to camp overnight...food for man and beast, bedding, extra stuff in case something breaks. Before you know it you have a bazillion pounds of stuff.

The Arabian should be able to do just fine. Those are some tough little ******s...and they can just go and go. 

I am older too...I know what you mean about creature comforts...I need them myself. We take a little window unit when we camp out at Ebenezer because we don't have a LQ trailer!! We put it in the groom door of the Brenderup and put up plastic with duct tape! LOL of course it is BLAZING hot in Texas and I am a wienie!!!

Post a picture of that horse when you pack him up!!


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## Painted Horse

I use a lot of the Saddle Panniers that you just throw over a riding saddle. No you can't carry as much as a good decker saddle. But they work. Having 3 daughters who often went with me and not wanting to take 6-7 horses, We often packed two horses, I would lead and my daughters hike. Once camp was set up, we still had enough horses with riding saddles for us to take day ride out and back from the camp site. I also use the same paniers when I'm elk and deer hunting, they roll up and we tie them behind the cantle. ride all day for the hunt, when we harvest something, We load it into the panniers and lead the horse back to camp or the truck.

Not suggesting this is the only way to go. But panniers do offer some versitility vs a dedicated pack saddle. Plus they are only a $100.

I've never had much trouble teaching any of the horses to be a pack horse. Put the saddle on, throw the pannier over the top and drop in a couple of salt blocks and haul them up and place them for the deer and elk, or put my chain saw, some fuel and gear in the opposite side and go clear dead falls off the spring trails. Horse gets used to the packs and the chain saw noise during the same trip and the trail riders the rest of the summer say thanks for the cleared trails. If you have horse that cuts too close to trees, tie a couple of old tires on the saddle and let him bang into trees with the tires. They learn real quick to go wide.

My daughter with a pack horse using panniers


















As much as I hate to admit this bad habit. I do frequently just turn my pack horse loose and let it follow on it own. The personality of the horse will determine if this is acceptable for you. You don't want horses that fight and kick to maintain position along the trail, nor do I want to chase after a loose horse. But my horses started tagging along with me on rides when they were just babies and they 've learned to follow the leader down the trail. Having a horse that will stay in formation with out a lead rope, has it's advantages when the going gets rough and I need to give more spacing to deal with obsticles.









You can see a couple of yearlings following my daughters on this ride. They just run alongside like a hound dog, sniffing and checking things out, but in general staying close to moma. but in the end they learn to follow the leader.









Regardless of what style pack you choose. Having an extra horse along to will allow you to enjoy your trip more. You can take more food, better creature comforts for you, and not feel so overloaded on your riding horse. We easily get by with 1 pack horse for two campers and often do it with a 3:1 ratio. Have Fun


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## jdw

SailorGriz said:


> Since I started riding last fall I figured I could go "backpack lite" camping with my horse and carry everything I need on him. One small problem: it doesn't all fit. It all fits in the luggage I have for him, but it's such an unstable load that I'm not sure it's worth it.
> 
> It'd be fine for an overnight, maybe a weekend, but for a longer trip? Forget it. Of course, part of the problem is that now I'm older than I once was and insist on more Creature Comforts, even when camping.
> 
> So, a pack horse is in the works. Hopefully this coming weekend I'll be getting a 4 horse trailer so I have room to haul a pack horse along with our two saddle horses. Mrs. thinks that our little Arabian can make a fine pack horse, with some training. He's 25 years old so he's pretty settled down but he still seems to have plenty of energy and endurance. Last weekend he carried a friend (200 pounds total load) for 8 miles up and down hills, mostly in the snow. A 150 pound pack should be no problem for him--especially without the snow!
> 
> So, time to start training him. As soon as we can haul three horses to the trailhead we'll start with his riding saddle and some loaded saddle bags and see how well he ponies on a trail. If he seems to be working out, we'll get a Decker pack saddle and panniers and try to have him ready for a serious trip by early summer.
> 
> 'Cause one way or another, I'm taking some serious pack trips this summer!


Man, this is AWESOME!!! I have always wanted to do that, and I am thrilled for you both!! Please share some info afterwards and even during the training. Very interested in doing this myself!! 

Great riding!!


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## SailorGriz

Painted, I've considered using saddle panniers but all the Mrs. saddles are custom English jobs and she refuses to even consider putting panniers on them. Not that panniers are that great on English saddles, anyway.

The little Arab was the Mrs. riding horse back in the day. She still rides him occasionally for short trips but he's really not big enough for her now. He really wasn't ever big enough for her but time and gravity have taken a toll and now he's less big enough, if you catch my drift.

So, I figure I might as well get a Decker and do it up right. I'll still go with panniers, not manties, as they'll be easier to pack and load. I'll get sturdy canvas panniers and put in a wood bottom and wood for the large sides so the whole thing stays "square" when loaded. I could get inserts, which would be fine for packing, but the wood slab becomes an instant table at camp with the addition of some screw in legs. Creature comforts, don't cha know!

I hope to get the trailer this next weekend and start taking/training the little Arab. Then get the Decker in a month or three and be ready for week long trip into the Gospel Hump Wilderness Area in early June. Have to keep to the low elevations due to snow that early. I'll hit the high country later!

Heck, I might even get out the camera and challenge you to a photo duel! ;-)


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## nworkman82

I am so jealous of you. Green with envy. Camping with my horse is my end goal. I wish you all lived closer. You'd have another tag-a-long! *Sigh* off to daydream. 

Seriously I'd like to friend you so I can pick your brain. Is that okay?


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## SailorGriz

Always, Workman! That's what we're here for! It's why I start threads like this--so I, and all of us, can learn! Just ask away and between us all we might have answers. Heck, might even have some answers that make sense are are reasonably close to right! ;-)


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## Saddlebag

The recommended weight for a pack horse is 100lbs. The reason being a 200lb rider isn't dead weight, but moves with the movement of the horse. The pack horse is carrying dead weight so 100 lbs, is plenty and it must be carefully weighed so the weight is evenly distributed. If you get a lightweight army hammock they weigh less than a pound and provide all the shelter you need. It comes with a "roof". Sure beats a tent and mattress.


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## SailorGriz

Saddlebag, yours is the lowest estimate I've seen. Most sources say 20% of animal weight for packing, 30% for riding. That's total load including tack. And assuming the horse is in good shape.

I'm figuring on no more than 100 pounds of gear on the Little Arab, plus tack. He's not a big horse at about 800 pounds. At 100 pounds of gear and about 40 pounds of tack he'll still be well under 20%. 

Extra gear can be carried on the saddle horses, if needed. At a minimum I figure to carry anything I need during the day on Mr. Big so I don't have to open the packs on the Arab.

I just got a Grand Trunk Skeeter Beeter Pro hammock and have a nice tarp to put over it. I should be all set for when the Mrs. isn't along. When she's along we'll have to have a tent and big air mattress. Just 'cause we're camping don't mean we don't want to snuggle at night! ;-)


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## QOS

SailorGriz that sounds like way too much fun. I wish we could do that! LOL I made reservations at Kisatchie National Forest near Alexandria, Louisiana for Memorial Day. I will be camping in a travel trailer - LOL told you I was a wienie


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## SailorGriz

QOS, there is absolutely nothing "weinie" about using a travel trailer! I did it for years! I just can't figure out how to get my horse to pull one! ;-)


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## Allison Finch

Too bad you don't want saddle panniers. I have a really nice heavy canvas pair for sale. I used them for packing game in the Colorado rockies. We would roll them up and tie them behind the saddle, ride in, pack the meat and lead the horses out. They are really nice. I need to get a photo of them, but I don't have a western saddle at the moment. I also have two pairs of three way hobbles, if you are interested.

Some rockies pics;



















This grey was my prelim event horse, before she sold


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## Painted Horse

Griz, I'll never fault a guy for spending money and buying good equipment. Deckers or Sawbucks both offer a better system to pack with. And you are correct, the saddle panniers are designed to go over a western saddle.

We used some Utah bags with both the sawbucks and with hooks on the Deckers. They are great to just drop a quarter of an elk or moose in after butchering it. I like the canvas so I can just throw them in the river or a water trough and wash out the blood after packing the meat. The Utah Pack bags made from Iron Cloth are really durable.

I've also used some plastic boxes that we make into a table once we get to camp. 

It always seemed like cruel punishment to be sticking a big rock in a pannier part way up the trail. But too often I'm packing with out a scale and if the load starts to not balance, I just get off and stuff a big rock in the light side. If the load continues to shift. I add another rock. Better to carry a few extra pounds of rocks than to have an unbalanced load.

The sorrel horse is carrying an elk and the grey horse has my camp on him
and I'm walking leading both.


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## QOS

Those are GORGEOUS pictures. Gaaa......I am a little uneasy about heights with a drop off!!! I showed them to Honey Darling Precious - he loves the Rocky Mountains!


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## nworkman82

I am blow away with your posts and pictures. How do you prepare a horse for long trail riding? Are their excersises you do at home? Or do you just get out and do local trail rides until your confident with their "trail calm." And how do you pack the horses food and water? Or do you allow foraging?


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## SailorGriz

Painted is the Local Expert on this thread for packing but I'll toss in what I've read/heard.

To get the horse ready, RIDE it! Lots. Up and down. Over obstacles. Through creeks. I read one guy rode four hours a day for a month to get ready for a Rocky Mountain experience. I think he was from Texas. 

We're lucky here. We have a 400+ foot hill across the road from us we can ride up and down to condition the horse. Well, we can once it dries out a bit. We also have Moscow Mt. ten miles away and near-infinite miles of mountain trails within an hour. So, we have lots of local options for conditioning the horses.

As far as packing . . . I started packing like I was going packpacking--except in saddle and cantle bags. Then I added a few creature comforts. Then I decided it wouldn't make a stable load so I'm upgrading to a pack horse--which means lots more creature comforts! I've done enough camping to have a pretty good idea of what I NEED vs. what I WANT--and tend to lean pretty heavy on the "want" side. ;-)

Where I'm planning to pack you don't generally take in food/water for the horses. I've been told there's plenty of forage (sometimes you have to look for it) and plenty of water. IF I find out I was told wrong it'll just limit where I can go a bit, not a problem.


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## Painted Horse

It really depends on where I go and what time of year.
Summer in the high country, I let the horse graze. I try to give them at least one hour in the morning and one hour in the eveing of grazing. I never grain my horses at home, But I do bring some grain on extendpack trips. The are working hard and never have enough time to graze enough feed. So I usually bring some. Put a layer of eggs in a Tupperware bowl, Cover in grain, put in another layer and cover in grain until the bowl is full. Snap on the lid. The grain prevents the eggs from breaking during the pack trip in and my horses get to eat the grain. If an egg breaks, my horses get a little extra protien.

Spring Rides in the desert, don't offer much from grazing. The horses could find enough if I just turned them loose. But the old saying is that it takes 300 acres of desert to feed a cow. I don't want my horses wandering that far off. So I always bring my own feed, and we typically camp at the trailer. I feed the horses in haynets or plastic tubs at the trailer 









Summer trips we allow the horses to graze. In fact I often bring a roll of hot wire and section off large meadows and turn the horses out. By making the space large enough the Alpha horses won't beat up on the beta horses. It gives them room to get away from the other horses with out running through the fence. Here we have 19 horses in a meadow grazing while we set up camp









We typically set the fence up to include some water. But the Forest Service gave us a ticket last summer for that practice. The new rules say that any structure we stand ( which usually ment tents) has to be 200 yards away from any water. They interepet our fence as being a structure and ticket us. 









I never leave the horses in the hot wire pasture over night. Deer and elk run thru it and the horse are loose.

We also try to include some trees in the enclosure so the horses can have shade or get out of the wind or storms. You can barely see the white fiberglass rod we set the hot wire up on the left









If I don't set up a hot wire, I at least hobble the horses and turn them out for an hour to graze









More later when I get some more time


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## Allison Finch

I used to spend the summers in Crested Butte Colorado as a pack guide for Fantasy Ranch. We did pack trips, mostly through the West Elk Wilderness. I also had event horses that I trained and showed in area 9. They packed and rode the trails in between shows.

We used three way hobbles during the daylight and then tied them to a high picket line at night. We packed grain, but allowed them to graze and water during the afternoons and breaks.

My favorite trip was a two day trip over the Pearl Pass into Aspen...a night in a hotel with a hot tub....shop the next day.....ride back over the Maroon Bells pass. This was for our less outdoorsy customers. Fun to spend a night in the big city

Waiting for a ride back to the ranch where the horses were kept in Aspen










Views from the Maroon Pass




























In the fall I would pack out game. During the winter I worked for the ski area. I worked all that time as a medic for the fire dept and mountain search and rescue. 

A great way to spend many years of my life


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## Painted Horse

Another photo of horses out in the meadow with a hot wire around meadow.









A lot hunting trips in the fall, there just is no graze available for the horses. On these trips we often haul in our camp on the first load in. While my partner sets up camp I return to the truck and load the horse with bags of hay cubes. I load two 80 lb bags on each horse. I'm riding one horse and usually leading 4, So I can haul in about 650 lbs of feed. Cold weather and working hard at hunting we feed the horses heavy and that will last about 4 days.


















So my answer to your question about feed for the horses, really depends on the season and location.

We always give the horses lots of opportunity to graze during distance ride. Afew minute for us to get off for a potty break or to read map, We let the horses eat.









And some times I just turn them loose and let them eat. I know my horse will chow down for about 1 hour. Any longer and I have to start watching them close. As long as their heads are down grazing, fine. But they start lifting their heads and looking around, its time collect them and tie them to something.

Horese near camp just free grazing









Here the snow has only been gone a few days and the grass just hasn't had time to grow. I still hobble and let the horse try to graze, It relieves their boredom. But his real feed will come from a bale of hay I hauled up on the trailer.


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## Nokota

GREAT PICS!!!!!!! all of you.
I hope to use one of my horses as a pack horse. As long as I am close to home it is not much of a problem, but I only have a two horse trailer and if my wife or daughter goes with me, two horse trailer......two people....no room for a pack horse. I have two camp trips planned this year. One in the Adirondack mountains with my daughter on a 32 mile loop through the high peaks wilderness area, and the other in the Theodore Roosevelt National Park in North Dakota. Some friends invited me to go with them. Unfortunately I will not be able to bring my own horse. It is a 27 hour drive and much cheaper to fly out as opposed to driving out. I will have to UPS all my gear out to my friends.

I am hoping to do some other weekend camping trips from the trailer as well throughout the summer.

Threads like this are great education, and I love the pics. Keep them coming.


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## phantomhorse13

Saddlebag said:


> The recommended weight for a pack horse is 100lbs. The reason being a 200lb rider isn't dead weight, but moves with the movement of the horse.


you should see what some of us look like at the end of a 100 mile ride.. i bet the horses would be asking for packs!! :lol:


sailorgriz, i am really interested to hear about your training and how the arab takes to it. i have never had the pleasure of dealing with packing/pack horses myself, so would love to learn vicariously!


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## SailorGriz

Nokota, funny that your two horse trailer would have the same problem as mine. Durn thing only carries two horses! ;-)

Which is why I'm looking for a bigger trailer. 

Phantom, I'll be posting to this thread periodically as I go along with the training and gearing up for packing. I'm always happy to share what I learn along the way--so others can, maybe, avoid my mistakes!


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## Allison Finch

Yep, sometimes the weather doesn't always cooperate. One trip, on top of a pass, we had a thunderstorm. No trees for cover....it was really scary. The next day the sun was out, but we all looked less than "pristine".



















On an Arizona trip, this dog was doggone tired!


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## QOS

Thanks for sharing those pictures! That buckskin has one pretty butt!!


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## Allison Finch

QOS said:


> Thanks for sharing those pictures! That buckskin has one pretty butt!!


Ha! The guy riding it had a nice one, too.....:twisted:


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## nworkman82

I love all the pictures. I think there are others on here that could look at them all day. Hint hint. Hahaha. Do you have any books you recommend for those inexperienced who are interested in planning and preparing for their own adventures. Your pictures have motivated me. Michigan may not be as mountainous as the west but I'd love to explore it with Lola (my QH).


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## Painted Horse

The thing with packing is that you can go with as little or as many creature comforts as you want. The more comforts the more pack horses you need to bring.

In the early days when I didn't have as large of a trailer or as many horses, I would pack my saddle horse and walk in leading the horse. Once camp was set up, I could then ride the horse around the surrounding area.

















Soon I got two horses and would ride one and pack the second one. It was great when I just wanted to get away. A pack horse can usually haul everything for two people. So with one person two horses, I quickly forgot everything I had learned about back packing, No more Freeze Dried meals, But I was able to bring real food. Potatos, carrots, onions and some canned meat and make a real stew, or real eggs.

















I've slept under the stars, I slept under a blue tarp, I've slept in small dome tents and I've sleep in wall tents. You choose just much protection and comfort you want to bring. And after doing a few trips, You will learn what works and what doesnt work for you. The biggest difference is did you get wet, did you get cold, did you have a misserable nights sleep because of the rocks under your back?

Daughter setting up a dome tent









The only thing you really need are some horsemanship skills. How do you take care of your horse in the back country? Can you put up a HighLine? Will your horses hobble? will their be food and water in the back country for your horses or do you need to haul it in with you? If your horse throws a shoe, what will you do? I don't know where you ride at, But out here, There is no one to help. You loose your horse and you will be walking back to your truck, And maybe your horse will be there. They are pretty smart about knowing where the trailer is.


















My advice, Just get out and do it, Make notes about what worked and what didn't, and next trip, fix what didn't work the first trip.


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## Nokota

Painted Horse. What are your thoughts on two people, two horses, one night out. Is it possible to carry everything you NEED in saddlebags and on your person to do an overnight loop while riding, not leading your horses? We would use lean-to's on the trail so would not need a tarp or tent. just sleeping bags, clothes, freeze dried food, a backpacker stove, hi-line equiptment, some grain for the horses. Probably forgot a few incedentals, but you get the picture. All the topics are about taking a pack horse, but I am talking about minimalist type camping. I only have a two horse trailer and it is 4.5 hours to where we will park the trailer so cannot make two trips for another pack horse. Any tips, suggestions, or words of wisdom? I cant seem to find much on the web about camping like that.


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## SailorGriz

Nokota, that was my first thought, too. Minimalist, backpacking style, camping with just saddle horses.

I tried packing for it and found I WAS able to pack for a one or two night trip that way. I meant pretty full saddle and cantle bags, and big pommel bags, but it could be done. Any more than about two nights and I found stuff no longer fit.

BTW, that was NOT including anything for horse feed.

I may still do a trip or two that way, especially if I'm by myself for an overnight. There's a couple of places near here that would lend themselves very nicely to a one or two night solo trip. I might try to fit one or two of them into my summer.

But for longer trips I just couldn't make it work! That's why I gave up and made plans for a pack horse. 

I, too, am interested in what Painted has to say since he's the Local Expert (I think I might be the one who gave you that title Painted. Congradulations.) 

Nokota, if you try doing a practice pack up, let us know how it goes! Especially if you pack up and then go for a local ride to see how it all carries.


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## Nokota

There is a 32 mile loop through the Adirondack wilderness area that my daughter and I are planning to do. Hoping to do it in one night. I figured we would be able to get it done without a pack horse by leaving early one morning, and getting back to the trailer in the evening of the second. This would give us the time to ride a little more leisurely and take our time. I have done 10 mile rides in a day in around 3 hours. Hunter paces and just trail rides so I feel 15 miles a day is not too much if we take our time and give ourselves the whole day to do it. Being one night, I figure there is a LOT less stuff needed so we could pack light.


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## SailorGriz

Nokota, the show stopper for me for packing was actually clothing. I refuse to do laundry every day when I'm out in the sticks! I figured 3 days of clothes would be fine for a week trip 'cause I could stretch them to only do laundry once on the trail. Clothes are both bulky and heavy.

Food can be bulky but doesn't have to be heavy. But, a week's worth is just more than I can get into the luggage on my saddle horse. Sigh.

Especially with my hammock, an not a tent, I don't expect any trouble with a single night without a pack horse. I've done that load out and everything was fine.

As soon as the weather clears up I'll be trying it out either up on Moscow Mt. or down in the Craig Mountain Wildlife Area. 

Having two people/horses lets you spread the "community" gear load a bit which will also help.


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## Painted Horse

Nokota, Having done 50 mile endurance rides, and a LOT of CTR rides that were 25-28 miles in one day, I don't see a problem with squeezing in a 30 mile if I made a long day of it.

I'm a big guy and don't want to over load my horses by loading gear on them in addition to my weight. I do have saddle bags and cantle bags, That I load with water food, spare jacket, fire starting stuff. But Sleeping bags, tents cooking utinsels bulk of my food etc all goes on the pack horse.

You have to remember than I frequently see snow in July at 11,000. So I carry a decent sleeping bag, jacket, raincoat etc. I'm more concerned about Hyperthermia than I am about going hungry. Often the trails I ride get blocked with blow downs, So I almost always have an axe or saw. I just can't get all that stuff on a single horse and still ride it. I've seen my horses in terrible shivers in July because of the temps or storms. So I usually carry at least a rain sheet that I use to cover my packs, That I can cover the horses with at night.

Camping at the base of a 13,000 foot peak in july is not like a hot humid night at lower elevations.


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## nworkman82

Do you use synthetic saddles? Do you have a website you like to use for gear?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Painted Horse

I use real leather western saddles. I had several of them custom made years ago and they have lasted and held up very well. I did buy a cordura saddle for my daughters when they were younger. But we only use it now for little kids who come for a ride.

I am blessed to have several great tack store within driving distance. So most of my major purchases are done in person so I can see and feel the product. I had several western saddles built many many years ago. They have held up extremely well. and will probably last me the rest ofmy riding career. even with me throwing panier over them and tying dead deer or elk over the saddle horn.

If you want some online places, Try

Wain Soper is a local store to me. He has great products, But is more money than most online discount stores. But very very good stuff
Wain Soper Pack Station Home

Outfitters Pack Station for true pack supplies
Custom Pack Supplies at Outfitters Pack Station

Don West Have Saddle will Travel makes a good single horse pack system
Have Saddle Will Travel

for Canvas products 
Davis Tent and Awning makes a great wall tent and good saddle paniers and top packs
Wall Tents, Canvas Tents, canvas wall tent, canvas wall tent frames,


For custom western Saddles, Dan builds a great one
High Quality Saddles by Dan High


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## nworkman82

I am so glad we have this thread. I have a syntheic saddle, but it seems to work fine for us right now but I wonder if it will be sufficant for longer trail riding. I've been shopping for a leather saddle but can only afford so much at a time.  If only paychecks came as fast I my urges to buy new tack! 

I live in southern Michigan and most of the horse people I've met are into showing or English riding. While I respect these sports, they do not get me fired up. I became a horse owner as an adult and I am still have so much to learn, and confidence to build. But I have found that I get the most enjoyment with Lola from trail riding. In Northern Michigan there are large (well, maybe not when compared to out west, hehe) state parks/campgrounds that allow horseback riders to use the trails. I've always wanted to take Lola "up north" and experience these places. Sadly, I've never met another horse person that is interested or willing to share their knowledge in this activity. I have recently found a mounted orienteering club (kinda like a mounted scavanger hunt) that does "day rides" in these areas, and plan to join over the summer. I am very excited to join this group of people and explore these wilderness areas. But I do not want to join unprepared, and be the silly newbie who doesn't have a clue. Hearing your stories and seeing you pictures gets me so pumped up. I worry that the activities we do in the arena or around the local farm land isn't enough to prepare Lola for the trails. The area I live is mostly flat and arigcultural with small pockets of forest that are usually privately owned. While the farmers do not care if riders follow the edges of their fields the private land owners to not allow people onto their properties. And unfortunately the edges of fields are not the same terrain we will experience on a true trail ride. I know that time in the saddle is the most important way to prepare... But, I assume walking over logs and water obstacles are two main areas to train a horse. How would you recommend someone (novice) to attempt this? Would you just get a log and encourage the horse to step over? In the saddle? From the ground? For a water obstacle would you use a tarp with water? Or maybe a small plastic pool?

P.S. On a side note... I got a 3 horse stock trailer today! Gonna pick it up over the weekend. Needs a bit of TLC, but my fiance is a mechanic and promises to have it fixed up in no time. Puts me one step close to getting out on the trails... So forgive my pestering... I've become a bit, well, obsessed...


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## Painted Horse

Glad you are having fun with it.

My advice is to use the equipment and tack you have and over time you will learn what deficencies it has and buy new tack to fix those weak points. Nobody knows what you will decide a weak link is. So I'm not here to tell you that your stuff won't work.

If the group you join this summer makes a big deal out of you being the Newbie, They are not the group you want to hang out with. I did CTR when I first got back into horses. We would do a weekend camp out and 40-50 mile trail rides. 40-90 other horses and people. I had a vet and horsemanship judge looking at me 3-4-5 times a day. I got a score card at the of the weekend of where I messed up. I went with the attitude of when the judge asked me to do an obsticle. Can you do this? Don't know let me try. Oops, guess not, But I will be able to do that by the next time I come. Most horse people, I find are very willing to share their knowledge.

If your horse trust you and works with you at home, He will learn to deal with the new obsticles out on the trail. Set up some obsticles that are cheap and be creative. Lay a log on the ground, get the horse to cross it and to start at one end and side pass up. Stand two barrels and have the horse back thru them, circle them. Find a ditch and have the horse walk thru it forward and back thru it. "Horses don't like backing up when their heels are bumping stuff. The blue tarp on the ground, a piece of plywood on the ground. Look around your farm and see what you can be creative with. We use anything we can find along the trail to ask our horses to cross. I'e shown this picture before. But ti illustrates the point of seeing something along the trail and asking the horses to deal with it.









Best Advice, Just go and enjoy, next trip change what ever didn't work for you and adjust. Trail riding is not a showring, ever ride could have something new and different to deal with.


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## nworkman82

Well, I'm commited. Just booked a weekend at a horse ranch in northern MI. They are doing a trail riding clinic for newbies. Wish me luck. Maybe I'll have some awesome pics of my own? My own adventures start. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QOS

I would love to ride all day, camp out and ride more. We kinda do that at Ebenezer but we go back to the trailers. I would love to ride out, pitch a tent, sleep out there and ride more. Humm...that is a goal I could maybe get Honey Darling Precious to do. I think the packing would be half the fun - trying to figure out what I could or could not take!


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## Nokota

Well Painted Horse. You inspired me. There is a three day CTR clinic being held in June close to me. I have filled out the paperwork and am sending in my application to go. Hopefully it is still too early to have filled up. They will cover some great topics from health and fitness to saddle fit, conditioning, traveling in varied terrain, footwear(for the horse) and a lot of other informative topics. My wife even decided she wanted to go with me so it should be a great weekend. Thanks for the endorsement of CTR!!


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## Painted Horse

There are several organization that put on CTR rides. I'm not sure which organization is popular in your part of the country. The one that I competed in was North American Trail Ride Conference (NATRC.org) 

regardless of whether you enjoy the competition. What you learn about camping with a horse will be extremely valuable. I've heard very experience endurance riders say that every endurance rider should attend one or two CTR to learn how to spend time with their horse.

NATRC rides in my region were always weekend events. You arrive Friday afternoon/evening and went home sunday. When you checked in Friday, the judging started and continued through check out Sunday afternoon. So the Horsemanship and Vet judges looked at how you camped with your horse, how you rode and controlled your horse down the trail and the conditioning of the horse. It's where I learn to watch my horses pulse and respiration, his hydration, his gut sounds, filling in his legs, soreness or stiffness, Their way of movement when being trotted out. I mean where else can you go and have a Vet watch your horses movements for an entire weekend, while you push your horse to his limits AND explain to you what he is seeing.

QOS, There is nothing wrong with riding all day and returning to your trailer. I do that a lot. I especially like to sleep in the front of my Gooseneck on a rainy night.


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## SailorGriz

Well, a bit of progress today. I got a 24" cinch strap so I could actually tighten the new saddle onto Tam. I don't have a pack saddle pad, yet, hopefully order one tomorrow, so I put several saddle pads on him to simulate the thickness of a pack pad. Everything fit just about right, although if the saddle were a touch bigger or he was a touch smaller it wouldn't work.

As it is, we saddled up and went for a walk out to the mailbox, about 1/4 mile round trip, I suppose. Tam was nervous from the wind and I don't think he much liked the britchin around his rump but he marched right along, just like he should. 

So far, so good. I feel like I'm on my way to being able to go horse camping, with a pack horse, in style!  Now all we need is better weather. Well, and a pad and some pack panniers (the Mrs. doesn't want to start with manties).


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## Nokota

Sounds like you are well started on being a packer. I would like to get the gear myself someday, but for now I can live vicariously through you. Good luck on the training sessions.


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## QOS

Woot!!! That is wonderful. Can't wait to hear more adventures...even if it is just to the mailbox!


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## Painted Horse

Throw a couple of old tires on that pack saddle and let him carry them around. He will bang into a few trees and learn to skirt a little wider.


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## SailorGriz

Yeah, Painted. I was at the tire store today getting a trailer flat fixed and forgot to ask for a couple of old tires. Both a way to let him bounce off of a few trees and a way to add a little (but not too much) weight to the pack saddle to help him get used to it. 

I hope to order the pad tomorrow or the next day (sent some questions to the outfit that sells the one I want) but panniers can wait until I'm actually ready to go packing. Until I'm ready to do a test load tires will work just fine!

I'm hoping the Mrs. will be well enough to go for a ride on Sunday. We'll try ponying Tam with the pack saddle on him on that ride, I hope.


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## QOS

Hope y'all can get out and ride and practice that packing around - tires and all.


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## BJJ

I love horsecamping----6-7 hours riding and returning to my trailer that will be warm and comfy!!! Have fun.


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## SailorGriz

Well, we decided the pack saddle I got is too big for our little Arab. It's a standard size saddle and he's a small horse. I've only actually seen one outfit that even sells a down sized pack saddle. Might end up getting one just 'cause the little guy likes to go along and he's not going if he's not working!

So today we put the pack saddle on our warm blood three year old filly. She's had a riding saddle on her but she's not been ridden. We won't start riding her for another year, or so.

But, she can pack, if she's willing! She handled the "newness" of the saddle very handily! Even the britchin' didn't seem to get her all wound up. The Mrs. took her for a couple of walks on the lane, for training, and she did really well! I guess she tried kicking once or twice but calmed down when the Mrs. said (using a whip for emphasis but probably not actually hitting her) that kicking wasn't allowed. 

We both walked her some. I just walked her around the driveway loop, but it helps get her used to being with more than just one person. We both worked with her to stay behind us, not try to rush in front.

Overall, for a first time in a pack saddle and, maybe, the first time being walked in any saddle, she did GREAT! We'll keep working with her and see how she does. I hope to pack into the Wilderness Area with a friend in early June. If she's ready I might try to take her along--not so much to carry much, but for training. If she's not ready, yet, we'll try taking her in later in the summer.


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## QOS

That is terrific! Post a picture of her packin'!!


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## SailorGriz

Post a pix of her packin' . . . 

You mean, like, taking a camera? And actually getting it out of my pocket and using it? Hmmmmm . . . . ;-)


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## QOS

yeah..with a camera...that nifty little thing that makes an image (I promise it will not steal your soul!)


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## SailorGriz

Thwppppt! ;-)


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## SailorGriz

Well, tommorrow I'm driving over 300 miles each way to get a 3 horse trailer. Couldn't find a four horse I liked and could afford so we decided on a 3 horse.

That'll take our two big riding mounts and a pack horse. Gee . . . no room for a horse for the kid. Ah, shucks. ;-)

Then the little pack horse gets to go with us to the trails and learn his new living. Just as soon as Mrs. leg is well enough for her to ride!


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## Nokota

Good luck with the new trailer. Hope the misses is up and riding soon!
We have had measurable rain every day for the last 12 days. Hoping it dries out soon but we have three more days of rain predicted


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## SailorGriz

Well, the "new" trailer is in the driveway. 15 hour day to go get it including some messing around getting a new spare tire and doing a wobble/tightness check on the bearings. Yawn.

For those of you familar with WW trailers, you should recognize this one. Like other early 90's WW's I've looked at it's built like a tank. Very heavy duty! 

It's a 3 horse slant with a nice tack room up front. 3 saddle tree and lots of hooks. In one corner of the tack room is a water tank--30 or 40 gallons, I'm guessing. Should come in handy this summer.

On the front is an electric tongue jack. Not something I'd do, but I like it! Just need to put a wheel on it instead of the pad--which I'd do whether it was elec or not.

It has camper style lights in the tack room and stall area. Also two lights on each side so we can see to tack/untack in the early AM or late PM. Master switches are toggles in the tack room with individual switches on each light.

There are hooks on the outside top that can carry 3 corral panels on each side. We don't have any right now, but we might want some, someday. Maybe. 

There are mesh curtains that clamp on over all the open windows, sides and back. They won't keep out bugs, but they will significantly reduce cold air blowing through when towing in the winter. Nice touch. I may modify them to help keep out dust on the back roads.

Only problems I'm aware of are a broken wire to the right turn signal lamps and there may be something going on with the brakes--I need to do some testing to figure out what, if anything, is wrong. The brakes set REALLY hard if I'm not careful with the controller in the truck. And it appears the right side is setting more than the left. I'm hoping the left side isn't working at all--and it's just a broken wire and easy to fix. 

I need to pull the matts out and check the floor before I put any horses into the trailer. I don't expect any issues but I'd rather find it by some means other than having a horse step through it! 

Next step: going for a ride ponying the newly minted pack horse and see how he does.


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## Painted Horse

Those are old work horse trailers. Stay ahead of the rust and it will serve you well.


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## SailorGriz

That's my impression, Painted. It doesn't have a lot of rust on it now--especially considering it's age. Probalby next summer I'll attack it with a sand blaster and repaint it. That should keep it going for awhile.

I was just amazed at how well it towed! Behind my F350 it tows better'n the Mrs. Brenderup--the longer wheelbase keeps it from rocking front to back so the ride is much better. 

Glad to hear you have Good Words for them! Thanks!


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## SailorGriz

Nothing is perfect. Including this trailer! It's very solid, very well built. Plenty tall. But . . . 

We can't load either my big gelding nor the Mrs. big mare on the slant. The slants aren't long enough. 

So . . . we put the little Arab that we hope to use as a pack horse in the front slant stall -- actually slanted toward the back because the escape door on the front end of the front stall doesn't have a window so he'd not be able to see out. Not sure it matters, but it'd sure be boring for me if I couldn't see out!

Then we straight loaded the two big horses into the back and tied them off to the gate for the first stall. The big gelding on the long side, the big mare on the short. They all fit fine doing it that way. The little Arab has lots of room, the two others have lots of width, Mr. Big has lots of length, Molly (the big mare) has her head up over the gate but has plenty of room.

Guess ya gotta do what ya gotta do!

We took them for a short ride to see if they'd freak. They were fine. 

One step closer to going packing!


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## Painted Horse

Most of the old WW that I have seen were the 4H straight load. So have no idea how long the stalls are on their slant, Would have thought they would be longer. Glad you got creative. Seems I'm always stuffing an extra horse in my trailers and getting creative to make them fit.

Thats the one thing I disliked about the trailers with the built in mangers. I couldn't stuff extra horses in. The panels always had to be shut in their proper place. With my current trailer, I can leaver a panel open and tight against the front wall and put 3 horses into two stalls.


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## SailorGriz

If we left both panels open we could probably stuff in a fourth horse if it wasn't a big one. Another like the little Arab should fit, I think. Not sure I'd want to take them very far like that but an hour or so would probably be OK. 

Not that I'm expecting to need to carry a fourth horse very often. If ever. Until I do need to, at least. ;-)


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## Painted Horse

I own a four horses and I bought a 4h thinking I would be just fine. But it's amazing how often, Somebody wants to come home early or stay late and I end up with an extra horse. It's nice to have the option.


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## Bearkiller

Very informative thread. I will be packing into the high uintahs for the elk hunt. The first week of the hunt will be all on the mountain. I'll have my camper on the mountain if the weather is bad but I did a search to find out about pack saddles and such. Nice to see I can use the bags with a western saddle. I don't really have anyone around here to help with knowledge so posts like this are awesome. It's what forums are all about.


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## Painted Horse

Nokota, Did you get your two pack trips done. Summer is almost over.

Bear, You must be new to Utah and working in the Oil Patch. I hope you enjoy the state. The uintahs can be a tough hunt, Lots of timber for the elk to hide in. I've ridden in most of the trails of the Uintas over the years. Yellowstone River and Moon lake trail heads north of Duchsene are some of my favorites. Also the highline trail into 4 Lakes Basin, and most of the North Slope trails up the Blacks Fork, Smiths Fork, Henries Fork, Hoop Lake, Beaver Meadow, and Brownie Lake . 

For hunting season we use western saddles and tie canvas panniers behind the cantle. That way we can ride all day and if somebody shoots an elk, we unroll the panniers, load the meat up and lead the horse back to camp. There is no doubt that deckers or sawbucks would do a better job of packing, But then I wouldn't be able to ride my horse. We hunt south of US 40 and pack in about 7 miles. So it's a couple trips in and back to haul everything in and usually the same bring camp out and the additional meat.


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## Bearkiller

I've been here six years but new enough. I am mostly new to horses. I know the mountains as good as anyone I know who has lived here for life. Not saying more than anyone, just the people I know. I bear hunt the Wasatch aventaquin unit alot. Although it's steep, there are lots of critters. A buddy of mine drew that tag this year (elk) so I may may be spending some time either there or up by Tabby mountain.


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## Painted Horse

I elk hunt the Aventaquin area. Very very familar with parts of that canyon. And yes it's steep


















I have to be careful which hells holes I shoot my elk down in. Some can be pretty rough getting them out, even with the horses.


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## Darrin

Bear, just a precaution since you are new to horses. You need to get them used to the smell of blood if you want to pack meat out on them. If not you may have to spend a week or two trying to figure out where it ran off to after breaking away in a blind panic.


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## Allison Finch

I've been lucky on that one. I used my event horses to pack elk/deer out of the wilderness in Colorado. I always carried vicks vapo rub to put in their noses, just in case. Never had to use it.

I remember one four year old who was on her first trip to pack an elk. The hunter had the elk hanging as we approached the site. This gutsy mare walked right up to the hanging elk and pushed it with her nose. She seemed amused when the thing started swinging back and forth.

Event horses ARE taught to deal with the unknown, but I never expected that none of them would be scared of blood.

But, vicks was ALWAYS in my pack....


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## Painted Horse

My horses have NEVER reacted to the smell of blood. I think it is more a trust issue than the wild game smell. If the horse trust you, basically will spook in place with you, blood, gunshot noise, small furry animals running underfoot are all dealt with. If you have a pasture potato that gets used once a year for hunting, Then strange things, including blood will spook them.

I've ridden young horses up to dead elk and deer, had them stand while sweated, grunted, swore, pushed and heaved to get the quarters loaded into the pannier, My horses would always be smelling and watching what was going on, but it wasn't big deal. I always let my horses smell my hands when I got done cleaning a deer or elk, So they could smell the gamey smell and the blood on my hands, before they had it laid on their back.

When I say my horses have never reacted, I mean nothing more than a snort. When they smell my hands, they usually take a big sniff and snort at me,


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## Darrin

I gave up hunting prior to getting into horses so have never had the experience of fresh kill + horse. I do know someone whose horse had no problems with a fresh bear kill until it came time to load him. They spent 5 days finding their horse again, luckily it was unharmed running loose with tack.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

This is a great thread! Packing in wouldn't be too thrilling here in the flat midwest. Jealous of the scenery. I could get my hubby to ride more if we could go on hunting trips with the horses. I'd love to bird hunt on horseback here but unfortunately it's not allowed. 

PaintedHorse, I'm loading up the horses & the dogs...I'll see ya in a couple days :lol:


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## Nokota

> Nokota, Did you get your two pack trips done. Summer is almost over


Painted. I dont do any camping until after labor day. Less people in the woods, less mosquitos and deer flies, less humidity, and generally a nicer time of year. I try to get all my camping done by the end of October so fall is a busy time for me. Next weekend is the first one but we piggybacked it onto an ACTHA event as well. Might go bear hunting in the ADK's for a weekend. I try to take pics as I go through the fall. Nice pics, keep them coming.


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## Allison Finch

Nokoda,
Looking forward to seeing photos of those incredible panniers you have!!


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## Bearkiller

Darrin, thanks for the advice. Both of my horses have been used for packing game. I'm hoping that will minimize the reaction.


Allison, I've used vicks on dogs to cover up the "in Heat" smell females put off. I hope it works better on horses than dogs. I only takes about 5 minutes for it to quit working on the dogs. Incidently, I have some puppies for sale if anyone wants one......... :lol:


I was told by an old cowboy that all you have to do is take some of the blood and smear it around their nostrils. The smell will over whelm them and they'll just ignore it. Has anyone tried this? Seems to me that it would dry out and quickly be gone..............


Nokota, are you spencer on the BGH board? Some of your pictures look similar. Either way, good luck on your bear hunt. Can you use dogs in NY on them or is it just spot and stalk?


Paintedhorse, is the Spring fire going to effect your elk hunt this year? It's off of the back of long ridge between there and reservation ridge. I saw a couple bulls on reservation ridge the weekend of the 4th of july. I also found a pretty nice bull off of horse ridge that was killed by a lion. Either way, good luck and thanks for the pictures.


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## Nokota

> Nokota, are you spencer on the BGH board? Some of your pictures look similar. Either way, good luck on your bear hunt. Can you use dogs in NY on them or is it just spot and stalk?


Yes, that is me. Also Robster on the 24hr.campfire.

In NY you can train hounds on bear before season, but you cannot hunt over hounds. I am not sure about baiting either, I was invited by a friend that goes to his camp to hunt bear every year and he knows all the rules and regs so I am tagging along for my first bear hunt.


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## Painted Horse

I usually hunt more off the Timber Canyon side of the Unit. We had a fire in there 5 maybe 7 years ago. The elk returned pretty quick. I had more problem with the Flash Flood that roared down off the burn scar 3 years ago. It washed out the trail and made the ride up the canyon pretty tricky.

I think I mentioned that I let the horses sniff my bloody hands after I gut and butcher the elk. So when it comes time to load them, Its no big deal. So I don't think you even need to rub it on their nose, but ifyou do, so what if it dries. They are past the point of it being a new scary smell to them.


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## QOS

wow wee...bear hunting? You are tough guys!!! I am such a sissy! I am not afraid or squeamish about blood but I don't know if I could shoot something. 

LOL Honey Darling Precious says Vicks Salve will cure just about anything so I am not surprised about using it to cover scent!!!


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## Nokota

We use vicks on our stallion sometimes if we are riding him and any mares in the group are in heat. I don't think he even needs it as he is a perfect gentleman under saddle, but hey!!!!! added insurance!


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## Bearkiller

Painted Horse said:


> I think I mentioned that I let the horses sniff my bloody hands after I gut and butcher the elk. So when it comes time to load them, Its no big deal. So I don't think you even need to rub it on their nose, but ifyou do, so what if it dries. They are past the point of it being a new scary smell to them.


 
I usually camp at water hollow in timber canyon for the spring and summer bear hunts. I had dogs out when that flash flood came through and couldn't get back up there to get them for a week because of the damage. There are some good bulls in there. One was hanging out right in the river bottom past camelot all summer.


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## Painted Horse

There was a bull that hung out there last year and the year before. I'd see him every trip in, Here is photo from 2009 of him standing by the road.









I've shot a few deer up Water hollow. Back in the days when I could drive my truck up Water Hollow. We mostly go up Cow Hollow.


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## Bearkiller

Is that another bull up on the hill? 

I've ran bears into cow hollow before. That's probably the main reason I now have horses. It's a long walk. Especially when they decide to tree up high.


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## Painted Horse

It's a long walk in before you can hunt. It's why I have horses. Been hunting up that canyon since the late 50's when my dad used to drag me up there. best thing that happen to that canyon was the Forest Service closing the road and weather washing it out. Speaking of that, I hear it flash flooded up that canyon again this summer. Have you heard anything about that? I'll probably go ride up it next weekend to just see what the canyon looks like this year.


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## Fellpony

Great thread, loving the photos  Can these saddle panniers you mention a.... go over English saddles and most importantly be sent to the UK? We don't have anything like that over here as far as I am aware.


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## Painted Horse

The Saddle panniers I use are canvas and built for Western Saddles. The horn and cantle protrude thru the canvas and help to keep it centered. Also the size of the pannier would be much longer than an english saddle. Im sure you could jerry rig the set up to work, But they are basically built to fit Western saddles They are just canvas, That is sewn into two bags, one for each side of the horse. The connecting canvas in the center is designed to fit over generic western saddle to spread the weight.









Here we used the panniers and then just tied a red duffel bag across the top


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## Fellpony

I would have to see if I could get something made up over here. I basically would want my pack horse to wear his riding saddle with panniers that fit on top so I could alternate the horse I ride or pack.

The photos are helpful


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## Bearkiller

Painted Horse said:


> It's a long walk in before you can hunt. It's why I have horses. Been hunting up that canyon since the late 50's when my dad used to drag me up there. best thing that happen to that canyon was the Forest Service closing the road and weather washing it out. Speaking of that, I hear it flash flooded up that canyon again this summer. Have you heard anything about that? I'll probably go ride up it next weekend to just see what the canyon looks like this year.


 
I hunted in there early this year and it was fine. But I was told it was washed out below the houses when the heavy run off went through and last I heard it still wasn't open. But that was probably in July. I've been hunting up above Vernal for the archery hunt so i haven't had a reason to go check it out. I'm pretty sure the ashley natl. forest duchesne ranger district could tell us right off the top of their heads. Surely with the houses being in there, it's fixed by now.........


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