# Breaking out a 'Dead Head'



## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

I have a QH/TB mare who I recently bought. She is a wonderful horse. She is easy to catch, easy to tack up, easy to brush, will go anywhere I ask her, doesn't spook at water tiles under the road or cars. She is a beautiful color, and I love her to death!

I bought her as a 10 year old QH, and when I got home and started riding her I realized that she is about as dead head as she can be. I can only get her out of a walk and into a trot when I use a lead to swat her butt or if she is riding with another horse and she wants to keep up with them. I don't even think she knows how to canter.. haha.

When I got her, I had gone about 4 years without being on a horses back, so I thought that she would be a good mare to get back into the swing of things. Getting my heels down and back straight kind of things. Getting some confidence back.

I recently found out she is a QH/TB cross with Mr. San Peppy and Doc O Lena on her blood lines, and that she is at the tender age of 5, not 10.

I have decided that, yes I love that she doesn't spook at anything and that I can trust her to carry a kid without me having to worry, but after a few months-a year I will want to go a bit faster than a walk, and will want to do more than just pitter patter around my front yard.

So, question time. How can I train my mare to be less of a dead head. How can I get her to pick up her feet and go faster than a walk? I want to be able to trot and canter on cue with her, and have her keep a trot, canter until I tell her to stop, but most of all I want her to TROT OR CANTER. sometimes, I think she forgets how... Haha.

Thanks in advance for your answers!!

Here is my pretty lady.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I'd be checking into if thyroid was low with testing by vet, as that can cause sluggishness.

And you also may not be riding with enough purpose as she has found out that your cues don't mean anything.

I'd see what she would do from ground, and then touch her up with rein ends to step her up some. And just knowing you had spurs might encourage her to move out better too, I've seen horses realize that spurs meant I need to go ahead and do what is asked, and spurs never even touched them.


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## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Clinton Anderson says to squeeze (your legs), cluck and then spank.......before long they know the squeeze means go or they get the spank. You don't have to spank hard, depending on the horse, mine is very sensitive and all I have to do is pick up the lead (I have macante reins) and she moves it.....


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Lessons always kick both our arses, mine and my horse's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

What's her diet consist of?


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Does she move in pasture? Is she always slow, or just slow in the saddle? 

We have an Appy gelding, 6 yo, who was slow and sometimes refused to move at all. I did much of what was suggested above;, squeeze, cluck & spank, giving him the opportunity to respond from the lightest cue to the firmest cue. If he flat out refused, I hopped off him and made him " lunge for respect" meaning I made him lunge in small circles around me with lots of direction changes. I also went after him with a lot of energy, like "I will eat you alive!" He lunged until he moved quickly and was breathing hard. 

There were a few times at first that he was difficult to move, but I spanked his butt with the rope. There were a couple times where he kicked at me cuz he can be a kicker. Luckily it sounds like yours isn't but be careful and stay out of kicking range. It's hard to know how he may react when you make him move his feet. 

The most important thing is to NOT BACK OFF. You must be firm and make him move. After a few times, he will decide that doing what you tell him to do in saddle is easier than running for his life and turning back and forth on the ground. Took a out 6 of these "come to Jesus" meetings with me to get him moving. Then we just worked on improving his response time. The sooner he moved off my signal, the sooner I stopped and let him rest for about 30 seconds. Then we started up again. The more we did this the lighter he got, 

Well, that's how it worked for me and Roudy anyway. Hope there is something here that you can use.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Have you ridden this horse without a saddle? It could be something to do with the fit as well, if not the diet.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Check his Selenium as well and other nutritional factors.

Had a horse at the barn who was the most sluggish thing on the face of the planet. Sent in some blood tests to a clinic and they emailed the owner back asking if the horse was even alive or if it came off a cadaver. O.O I think the fact that there was no selenium in his whole entire body excused him! :lol: Fixed him up with shots from the vet and he's great. My mare Selena as well is Selenium deficient and gets a supplement. Not sure where you are located but here it is a common problem.

If not, ask softly, cluck, and BAM spank until you get a result. Then loose rein trot/canter, don't drive her. If she breaks down on you, BAM spank her again and as long as she's going and "Cruising" around just relax and chill up there. She'll learn going is a lot easier than breaking down or refusing to go faster.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

First, thanks so much for everyone's comments!!

We have been working on ground work, getting her to lunge for respect. She is stubborn, but she finally figured out how to yield her hindquarters, which is a good start.

I think the reason she acts so sluggish could be because she was used as a kids horse her whole life. From what I know (which isn't much, mind you) was that 4-8 year old kids that didn't know a thing about horses were the ones that rode her. Ii have had a few horses that were 'kid broke', and they were all just slow and sluggish, having it beat into them that cant go faster than a walk.

I will get some blood work done and get it sent off. We do have a problem with selenium deficiency here in southern Kentucky, as I almost lost a doe goat and 3 of her kids one year because of it. So that could explain it.

Her diet is mainly just hay. Free choice all day long. I guess hay wouldn't be enough for her to get all the vitamins that she needs. Would getting some free choice loose mineral salt help her?

My goats were getting selenium and copper deficient at the beginning of winter and I got them a loose goat mineral, and gave it to them free choice, and they are all doing so much better. I would assume that if I got a loose horse mineral and gave it to her free choice, she would eat what she needed and over time that would help? Atleast until I got the blood work back, right?

When I ride her, I do what clinton Anderson says and I squeeze, cluck, then I spank her, then spank harder, and spank HARDER, and then she will think about going into a trot. But she goes back into a walk, so then I keep spanking her, and spanking her and she it just like 'whatever, I want to walk' until my arm is so tired I have to give up, or I start getting stares from the neighbors, like they think I'm abusing my horse.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

RiverBelle.. what about saddle fit? Have you ridden this horse without a saddle?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Just a thought. With that breeding in her background, maybe she needs a reason to put her heart into it..as in, a "job" with a goal she can clearly understand and "attack" and that allows her to go quite but, at certian points, requires that she "turns it on".


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm willing to bet it's the selenium.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with those who have suggested health, nutrition, saddle fit, etc & checking her out in the paddock & on line first. Of course, some horses are lazier than others & it could also be purely about training, but rule out any physical causes first. Assuming you have...

So she's 'quiet', but at 5yo she may not have had(shouldn't, IMO) have had that much under saddle work. It's possible she was never trained to trot/canter under a rider & she doesn't really know how. I'd first get her doing this on cue on the ground first.

When teaching, initially I would start with escalating the pressure from a gentle 'ask', increasing steadily *until it's effective*. You say you're using the CA/Parelli style, but if you're 'telling' & she's effectively saying 'you & who's army??' you're not being effective enough - you're nagging her, which IMO can become more 'abusive' & teach her to just put up with it, than using enough 'incentive' to be effective only once or twice, because your horse then knows you mean business. 

The *instant* she begins trotting, you need to drop the pressure(negatively reinforce the behaviour) to let her know that's the 'right answer'. Once she's reliable about going into the trot, *then* you can start asking her for more/longer & then for faster paces. 

Positive reinforcement(reward - scratchie, treat, etc) is also very helpful in training, as with every type of feedback, *so long as your timing is good & you don't inadvertently reinforce undesirable behaviours. Remember horses learn by *instant* consequences, so whether it's reward, punishment, negative reinforcement, it needs to happen *at the time of* or *immediately following* the behaviour in order to be associated with it.

Only once she's got the hang of what you're asking, then I'd get 'stricter' if she doesn't 'listen' to the initial signal - eg. as Sorrel suggests - ask, then 'tell'('BAM') without the middle steps, but I wouldn't initially start off so abruptly - remember, you may be *teaching* her these things from scratch.



> Her diet is mainly just hay. Free choice all day long. I guess hay wouldn't be enough for her to get all the vitamins that she needs. Would getting some free choice loose mineral salt help her?


There's a good chance she's deficient/imbalanced in a lot of stuff then, which could effect her behaviour as well. I would be doing a diet analysis, including on your hay/pasture if possible & then supping appropriately to balance that. Some feed free choice minerals, some advise against it, as horses may OD or get too little of some things they may need but not like. I personally choose to feed commercial made up supps that 'fill the holes' in their diet, but provide a salt block free choice too.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

I use spurs for lateral work only, never for speed.

If her health/diet/saddle fit is good, you may need to get after her a bit. She's not taking you seriously.

Show/ask/tell.

She has been shown how to trot. So ask her to with your heel. If she doesn't respond, "touch whip" to reinforce leg. I use a dressage whip so I can reach around the saddle to her hind end. I guess its called different things, but I don't consider the whip touch a "spank" since you are not punishing. You're reinforcing.

Be consistant. Heels first, whip second. You don't have to lace her, but there needs to be enough pressure behind the whip to reinforce your leg so she will take it seriously. Some horses only need to be "swept" with it. Others need a "tickle", some need a "tap", so on an so forth as the pressure rises.

Be quick about it. Don't let much time pass between the heel and the whip. Give her a moment to respond and if she doesn't, touch with your heels again and "touch whip".

You will find that the more she takes you seriously, the more responsive she will be to your heel because she understands that reinforcement is coming if she doesn't.

Once you have the trot, don't allow her to slow for any reason other than when you decide. Drive, drive, drive.

Once you get the trot down, move to the canter. I once had a horse so "backed up" that I could not get her to canter with the heel - touch whip thing alone. I needed someone on the ground with a lunge whip to chase me until she got it.

I would use spurs for forward movement as a last resort, since you want to give her the chance (and train her) to be sensitive to your natural heel first.

Be sure to first introduce the whip to her so she knows what its use is.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

Skyseternalangel - No, I have never ridden her without the saddle. I was planning on getting out tomorrow and try that out and see if she responds any better without a saddle on.

CopperHead - I had never thought that she had never been taught how to go faster under saddle. That would def. make a difference if she had. I will start working her more tomorrow on ground work and getting a better response out of her. But here is another question: Rose has been doing very well with her ground work. She has been learning quickly once she figured out I was the boss. She if also figuring out how to keep out of my space when I am working her. (she has a bad habit of wanting to walk on top of you, or run you over if she knows you have food, etc.) Do you have any other tips on how to get her out of my space? Thanks!!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

A good question here that went unanswered. Does she ever run in the field when she is loose?


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

I personally would rule out any medical issues and get a blood test done. I had a sluggish mare with low iron levels perk right up after getting her on Red Cell.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

Elana - I thought about that today. I have never seen her get up any faster than a walk out in her lot, but the three horses only have a small lot right now since I am trying to fix the larger pasture right now.

SkysEternalAngel - I rode her bareback today, and I don't think she had ever been rode bareback before. I got on and she went backwards and turned around a few times like she wasn't sure of herself. After I squeezed her she walked on, but it took her a minute to get her groove. But, she didn't go any faster or listen any better today on bareback than she does any other day. And I have a very balanced seat, so I know I wasn't just 'throwing her off balance'.

I worked with her a bit more on yielding her hindquarters today, and she is picking that up quickly. I know I have to get her to do that before I can really lunge her properly. But I will try to get her to go into the trot while lunging first before I do anything else under saddle.

I called my vet today and he is out of the state, so I will have to wait until later this week before I can get the blood work done, but that is my next step. I want to get a full blood work done to rule out what may or may not be wrong.

thanks again for all the wonderful answers!

does anyone else have any ideas?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Saddle fit, hoof probs, other back probs, neck/neurological issues, nutritional or illness probs.... or perhaps purely lack of training. Could be a wide range of things, that is all just speculation without getting her checked out. I wonder how old she was when she was started & what's been done with her in the past. 

I wouldn't be riding her & wouldn't be asking for too much on the ground until you've ruled out those kind of things, not just getting bloodwork. If you're short of info or good help on saddle fitting, look up 'Balance International' website - they have a heap of good info there.



RiverBelle said:


> She if also figuring out how to keep out of my space when I am working her. (she has a bad habit of wanting to walk on top of you, or run you over if she knows you have food, etc.) Do you have any other tips on how to get her out of my space? Thanks!!


What have you been doing to teach her to stay out of your space & 'mind her manners'? If she's figuring it out, perhaps what you're doing is just right & you'll just have to persist for longer, particularly if she's had 5 years practice learning that walking all over people & mugging for treats etc works very well.:wink: 

I'd make a point of actively teaching & rewarding her for what you DO want - eg. standing/leading 'politely' 1-2' away, politely keeping her nose to herself when you have food, etc. IOW, teach her the 'right' behaviours work to get her what she wants. I'd make sure you are consistent in ensuring the 'wrong' behaviours don't work for her - eg. she bumps into you(or even gets too close) & you make sure it's unpleasant for her(if I'm 'swatting flies' randomly & they happen to get *themselves* in the way...) and also ensure that you never ever reinforce 'rude' behaviour - eg. regardless of what 'good behaviour she may have just done, NEVER reward pushiness.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

wow, what a wonderful answer Loosie! Once the vet gets back in town, I will ask him what he suggests and go from there.

She has been doing better with getting out of my space. When she gets too close, I wiggle the lead rope at her to back up, and if she doesn't listen I swat her with my lunge whip on the chest. I've had to swat her pretty hard a couple times, but she did figure it out after a few times. But, that gives me a little hope that if she has done so well with 'figuring it out' with getting out of my space, then maybe she will figure out how to lunge, and then trot/canter in the future.

I have been keeping her exercise limited since everyone suggested an imbalance in her diet. I rode her for about 15 minutes bareback today just around the house a couple times, then I let her rest ad munch on some hay, and then worked with her for about 30 minutes on groundwork. Doing that much shouldn't be too much of a overload until I find out what is wrong when the vet comes, right?


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

My first reaction when I saw the pic, was, "have you tried food ?", mainly as a joke to myself. but then I kept reading and see that it might have hit the nail on the head. Start feeding a decent commercial feed once a day and do some ground work.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Can you post a photo of her (side shot so we can see her conformation and look)? Can you post a video of her being ridden?


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

I have been outside all day working around the house. I'm going to warm up for a few minutes, eat some lunch, then I am going to head back out to get some pictures of her and see if I can get a video. youtube takes so long to upload a video that I may not be able to get it. But I will definitely get some confo pictures for ya in a bit.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

One thing about this forum.. every time someone asks, "can you post a picture of your horse" they gladly oblige. 

I suppose it is like a New Mom's Forum.. and the question of "do you have a photo of your baby?" 

I prefer photos of horses... LOL


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

*update*

First of all, I want to apologize to everyone about the lack of response on my part. There has been a lot of stress in my life for the past month and I have found it hard to focus on anything long enough to write up a reply to this thread. Things are still very stressful around the home, but I will do my best to explain how things are going for anyone that might still be interested. Feel free to continue to comment after this post. I am still very interested in your opinions, as I value everyones input. So, here goes nothing.

______________

Sorry, no pictures. Let me get that out of the way first. The weather has not stopped being nasty, and every time I went outside to get some pictures, they never came out very good. It is nice and sunny out today, so I will try to bring her in and get some decent pictures for those who still want to see her conformation and such.

Now, the vet did come out and take a look at her, like many of you suggested I have done. The vet came out, took her blood, gave her a look over and said on the outside, she looked like a healthy and sound horse, though she does have some slight thrush in the hooves. He said that we caught it soon enough that after a few weeks of putting the medicine on her hooves, it will clear up. He also said, the thrush had nothing to do with her sluggishness, just because it was such a small case. The vet finished up the basic exam and left to get the blood work taken care of. The vet came back out to the house, seeing as he only lives about a mile down the road, to let me know how the blood work came out. He told me that the blood work came out just fine, and there is nothing wrong with her selenium levels etc.

I had told the vet everything I knew about Rose, and I asked him why she was so dead headed, and acted so lethargic. He wasn't sure, and he wanted to see how to was under saddle. So, I tacked her up and rode town the road a couple times. After she warmed up, she did pretty well. He said she looked fine to him. She was alert to the things around her, she looked at other horses the neighbor has and she watched the cars go around her but never spooked at them. She did jump a little bit when my phone started ringing, but never tried to bolt or anything like that. He asked me to try to bump her up into a trot. I kicked her as hard as I could, and nothing. So, he had me ride over to him where he gave me a switch he had pulled off a tree limb. He said not to 'whack' her with it, just tap her to get her attention.

So, we walked back down my driveway a couple times and then I tried to bump her up into a trot with my heels, and nothing. I tapped her butt with the end of that switch, and what do you know, she hopped right up into a beautiful smooth trot. When she tried to slow down, I only had to squeeze with my heels and she sped back up.

Long story short, the vet verified that she is lazy and disrespectful and needs to be shown who is boss. And apparently, it doesn't take much more than a tap from a switch, or a 'dressage whip' which I will be buying now that I know it will work on her. But he said that because she has a lot of well known cow horses on her sires blood line, he said she could be lazy because she doesn't have a 'job'. He said if we got into something like the extreme trail courses that she should perk up because she would have a job, and a purpose in life. Which makes sense now that I think about it.

The vet said he will be back out at the end of the month to look at her again and make sure she is still doing okay, and to see if her training is making a difference in her attitude.

So, long story short, the vet came out, said her levels in her blood were great and that she was just lazy and needed to learn who the boss is, and needs a job to do to help her have a purpose.

So, opinions? comments? Ideas? questions?  Thanks


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cut her some slack. She believes in her training and is having trouble figuring out why you want to change it, just like OTTB's have trouble with a new job--_"how come we can't just run away from everything...in a straight line?"
_Make a plan and break the training down into bite size chunks for her. I agree with lunging for respect. It teaches her that you are the head broodmare and she must move around YOU, instead of vice-versa.
I was a double major--one was Music. Musicians have perfected performance methods, positions and exercises. When a music learns an instrument or learning to sing in a way that is counterproductive, it just seems to take forever to learn the right way, but the right way is, in the long run, easier. Adele had to go on 6 months of silence recently to fix her voice--Bing Crosby had to stop singing for that amount of time early in his career bc he was developing vocal nodes. Then he learned to support his breath.
*THE POINT is that this will take months to fix.* You're not there, yet. IMO, I don't trust a horse who won't move out. When spooked a horse that behaves like yours will freeze and then buck or bolt or both.
We train our horses to relax around things that frighten them and react quickly to our cues. In nature they react quickly to stimuli and are slow to be obedient to humans.
Short lessons given daily and lots of praise for doing it right. The US Cavalry called it "make much of the horse" when he did it right.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm glad you vet can tell when a horse is just lazy! Very few of ours will say it, they'll keep wanting to do more and more tests that never turn anything up.

I realized that Alahna has a HORRID head tossing/shaking problem when I bought her. I gave her a job (contact, trail ride, etc) and I haven't seen her shake her head or throw it up since..If I'm just mosying around in a circle at a walk, she'll start shaking her head again.

Having a job is definitely a huge part of everything to every horse I've worked with/ridden/touched. When I gave Dude something to actually do instead of mosying around forever and then one day asking something of him, his rearing went poof, hasn't reared since from what I've heard.

I'm glad you got her moving and plan on buying a whip for backup, eventually she'll be good and responsive without it, just be patient. 

Also..not sure how you kick, but my cues go like this:
Nudge with calf
Kick with calf
Turn my heels up (the edge of my heels) and kick
Usually by the time I kick with my heels (a little farther back on their barrel where it's a bit more sensitive), they're either moving or shutting down. If I can't get a horse to move with my last kick, I take the whip and after a nudge of my calf, they get the whip. Not hard, but not just a tap either. Still don't listen, I up the ante and we usually continue on with maybe a buck, depending on the horse. I've never been able to not get a horse moving at whatever pace I choose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I was thinking she sounded like my mare and being disrespectful if her health turned out to be alright. 

Your mare does not sound very nasty or rude and I doubt it will take long for her to be set straight. What I am guessing happened is that the little kids just nagged and nagged and she just learned how easy it was to ignore them. 
I do not believe this mare is truely broke. I think she is just too lazy to put up a fight and even though she does not buck, she knows nothing. 

So even though she just does, please take it slow and teach her from the beginning. I believe she will have a better grasp of what you want if you start her over and she learns instead of just does.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Just as with people, some critters simply do not have the mental capacity to be all that we want them to be.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

But some people will help them be the best they can be at what the animal wants to do, and have fun doing it!


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

wow, thank everyone so much for the great replies!

When I kick her to make her go, I squeeze with my calves, then squeeze with my heels, then kick, then kick again farther back her barrel. Like I said, before I used a whip, no matter how hard I kicked, nothing happened. But that whip is really working better with her, and I hope she will figure things out before long.

There are a lot of people that have suggested that she was not fully trained, and it makes a lot of sense. I work slowly with her, not trying to over do it while she is still learning.

She is a smart horse, and she has proven that she learns quick on the ground. I have only been working with her for a couple weeks and she pretty much has lunging the proper way figured out, which is a good sign.

The vet said he is going to come out later in the month, like I said, and when he comes out to take a look at her, I will give you another update on how her training is going and so on.  Thanks again for the lovely replies!


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone who replied to my updates and what not. It is going to be really pretty outside, so I thought I would get out and try to play around with Rose a bit. 

Since the vet said that she probably needs a 'job' to do, and since most of you agreed that that sounded right, does anyone have any idea what that job could be?

Keep in mind, I live on a 7 acre plot of land. There is a 3/4 part fenced off section at the front of the property that is about the size of an arena that I ride her in some, then the lower part of the plot is fenced off but has a open gate. The lower part heads downhill into a small patch of woods. I have a driveway, gravel. Then I rode Rose on the road some, up and down a few subdivisions around my house.

I don't have much room to ride, and there really isn't any way I can go to a arena or anything. I have to work with what I have. I don't even have a round pen - I lunge and work my horses without one.

So, any ideas what I might be able to do to get Rose's mind going and get her 'working at a job'?

I have a set of 4 small trees in a row that we wind in and out of a few times, but other than that, there really isn't much I have tired.

I have access to some small logs that we could walk and maybe trot over. But I am really at a loss here. Lol. I'm not sure what a 'job' for a horse could be, or what it should be or how to go about it. Any ideas would be great! Thanks again!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

Great that you had the vet check her out. I wouldn't discount the possibility of back, saddle fit & hoof issues, of which the vet may not be the best person to ask. But assuming it's purely behavioural...

Very basically, agree with Corporal. I (respectfully) think you need to cut her some slack & be more considerate & *respectFUL* of her. I'd focus on *teaching* her & to enjoy what you're asking of her, rather than just trying to make her do stuff.



RiverBelle said:


> I kicked her as hard as I could, and nothing. So, he had me ride over to him where he gave me a switch he had pulled off a tree limb.


If you're kicking your horse, let alone doing it as hard as you can, then I'm sooo not surprised she has not 'respect' for you either.:-( I don't believe you can gain respect from a horse until they first know you respect them.

I do agree with using a different cue - be that a stick, crop or otherwise - to back up your 'asks', if she's been effectively trained to 'grin & bear' being kicked.



> bump her up into a trot with my heels, and nothing. I tapped her butt with the end of that switch, and what do you know, she hopped right up into a beautiful smooth trot. When she tried to slow down, I only had to squeeze with my heels and she sped back up.


Instead of 'bumping' or kicking, I'd be asking her politely with my legs & then backing it up with the crop if/when necessary. **I'd also make a point of reinforcing any 'right' behaviour, because she'll learn what is 'right' or 'wrong' by what works for here & what doesn't. Eg. I wouldn't get her into a trot then hassle her to keep going, but reinforce/reward her for going into the trot. Once she is reliably doing this, then you can start asking for a little more **& don't forget to reinforce that too.



> Long story short, the vet verified that she is lazy and disrespectful and needs to be shown who is boss. And apparently, it doesn't take much more than a tap from a switch,


Most horses are lazy & have no respect for people, regardless of how obedient/well trained they are IMO. In order for a horse to 'respect' you *as a worthy leader*(you can be a domineering boss or effective 'slave driver' without them respecting you), I think it takes trust, and respect & consideration & understanding from you TO her, before you can hope to gain it FROM her.

If you're a good trainer, good timing, etc, then you may indeed find that all it takes to 'retrain' her to respond to leg aids is indeed a light tap or otherwise different, mildly uncomfortable cue. But if that's the only way you handle it, it could also just end up taking more & more pressure to get her doing less & less. 

You're using punishment/negative reinforcement - applying an unpleasant stimuli(that she hasn't already been desensitised to), that stops the instant she does the 'right' thing, in order for her to learn what the 'right thing' is & be motivated to do it for you because she will want to avoid the unpleasantness. I think this is an invaluable 'tool' in teaching horses, but one that can leave a sour taste in the horse's mouth, if that's all they get - eg. they do as you ask just because it's the 'better evil'. I want my horses to do as I ask because they enjoy it & my company, so I tend to also use a lot of positive reinforcement, of various types, too.



> He said if we got into something like the extreme trail courses that she should perk up because she would have a job,


I do agree that riding with focus/purpose is helpful in teaching a horse to focus on you & what you're asking - whether it takes a trail course or 'job' to get you riding with purpose or not. Of course it also comes down to what you want to do. But whatever you do, it's a matter of teaching & motivating her effectively - they can have the best bloodlines in the world & be unmotivated & lazy doing a 'job' if you train badly too.

So... anyway, that's my opinion, based on what you wrote. Hope it's helpful & gives you more 'food for thought'. Cheers!:wink:

Then I just read...


> I don't have much room to ride,


 ...after you described your property. All I can say is I wish I had all those options!:lol: Even if what you're getting at is you want more enclosed areas & can't afford more proper fencing, another option is electric fence tape & tread in posts.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

Hello again to everyone that has kept up with this thread. As promised, I am going to give you an update on Rose.

First I want to say that I researched saddle fits, and I checked my saddle, and how both my farrier and my vet check it out. We all agree that the saddle fits Rose fine, but will be better once her top line fills in with more muscle. Now onto the story, lol

Well, I have been riding Rose about 2 times a week, sometimes only once. After she learned that I carried a whip, she had showed a bit more spunk. While out in the field, she keeps to herself, acts lazy and doesn't run and play with the other horses. She lays her ears back and then goes back to eating. But she comes out of the field fine, I can saddle her up and hop right up on her with now problem, just like before. I have noticed that he pays more attention to me now that we have been working on ground work, and she keeps her head up a little more, acting a bit more perky. When we ride, she takes off a nice steady walk now instead of just lazily dragging her feet when we walk. She acts like she has a purpose now. It takes a bit of squeezing to get her to trot, but I hardly ever have to use the whip now, which means she is learning. I do have to tap her with it to get her to canter, but we are cantering!! She has such a smooth trot and canter, I swoon just thinking about it!

I have started trying to get her brain working while I am riding her. I have a few pine trees that we will weave in and out of, I take her across the road to the subdivision and we go up and down the hill where the drain is, trying to work her muscles. We will go down into the woods where I have found a fallen log, and we walk and trot over it some. There are some broken logs bits around one end of the log, so we walk over it, back and forth. I figure walking on slightly unstable ground like that would help her build her muscles and her coordination. I have been able to tell the difference in her balance after going over it a few times.

I had noticed a couple weeks ago that she was loosing a bit of weight. We hadn't been working very hard, not enough to make her loose weight, and she was still getting hay 24/7 with about a handful of sweet feed a day (mainly as a treat), and with access to mineral salt all the time. Well, the vet came out, like he said he would at the end of the month to take a look at her. He watched her being rode and said he looked like she was doing a much better job than she was a month ago. I asked him why he thought she was losing weight.....

You see, Rose has had a 'hay belly' since I got her. She has been on 24/7 roll of hay since before I got her, and I thought she was just getting chubby in the belly area. But she was losing weight around her ribs. I had been thinking "could she be pregnant? That would explain a lot.." See, I had got three mares and one gelding when I bought the lot of horses. I was able to sell one mare, a 14 hand pony, to a older lady as a trail mount. The lady just LOVES her pony because she can get up on her easily when trail riding if she has to get off for whatever reason. Well, that lady called me and said "Guess what. My mare is pregnant!" She asked me how she could be pregnant and I said, she must have got bred before I bought her. So I started to think... if her mare is pregnant then... mine might be too...

Well, long story short, Rose is pregnant! (along with the other mare I have) I called the men I bought her off of and he denies ever having a stud out with any of the mares. But, I remember seeing a jack out in the field with them... I have a feeling it was the jack that bred her, the mare the lady has, and also the spotted mare I have. Either way, I have 2 mares that are pregnant and due around the same time.

The vet said, because she is pretty far along (due sometime in June) that the pregnancy may be making her a bit lazy, and moody (he is the moodiest mare I have ever seen, lol.)

So, I have been going out and checking on her every day. She, and the other mare, are both making bags, and then both have big bellies on them. It was pretty funny though, and me and my dad both laughed when the vet said she was pregnant. Every single mare (and I am not exaggerating) I have ever bought has had a colt. Every. Single. One. So it just makes sense that these mares would be pregnant too.

So, I will be starting a foaling thread for Rose if anyone is interested. (I can attach the link once it is made if anyone would like). I may be making a foaling thread of my other mare too, but since they are both due I may keep them both in one thread.

Feel free to comment, ask questions, or anything. I'll be happy to hear anyone's input or answer anyone questions. Oh, and sorry for the novel, lol.


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

RiverBelle said:


> I think the reason she acts so sluggish could be because she was used as a kids horse her whole life. From what I know (which isn't much, mind you) was that 4-8 year old kids that didn't know a thing about horses were the ones that rode her. Ii have had a few horses that were 'kid broke', and they were all just slow and sluggish, having it beat into them that cant go faster than a walk.


This. If kids have been riding her for her whole life, and she's been kicked and yanked and yelled at by tiny little people, then she's become ignorant to everything around her. A lot of people think that abuse makes a terrified, fearful horse but it can actually go the other way around and make a lazy, ignorant horse that needs a red-hot poker in the rear to get up to a trot.

I worked with a gelding that was like this. I was also very concerned that he had health problems because he was so lethargic and complacent to everything. It helps when you can make a game out of yielding, if the horse isn't afraid of the lungewhip or the rope. If you can walk into the pen and swing the lungewhip or the rope and get any kind of movement out of her, then that's what you start with. From there, it's just a matter of teaching the horse that when you swing the whip or rope, the horse needs to pick up speed. When you relax, the horse knows she did the right thing. So once she's moving, you would swing the rope or whip and keep swinging it until she picked up speed even a little bit, then back off. This not only gets the horse paying attention to the whip or rope, but gets her actively thinking and enjoying the exercise.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh wow, sounds like you've got your work cut out for you then! So hopefully the vet told you all this, but at this point she won't need extra calories - it's the first 'trimester' they need extra energy - but I would be getting a good nutritional supp into her as of yesterday. When she foals, she'll need extra calories while she's lactating too.

Have fun & keep us posted!


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

LaffeeTaffee- She had been doing really well with the whip. Now that I know for sure she is pregnant, I am going to be riding her, but only at a walk and a slow trot (I don't want to do too much, seeing that she is pretty close to foaling.) But she is learning quickly, and soon I wont have to use the whip anymore, which is my goal.  Thanks for the comment.

loosie- Thanks for the comment! I am heading out tomorrow to get some good mare and foal feed for both her and the other mare, so I have that covered.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

With her bloodlines she's bred for reining and cutting, "thinking" horses that are sensible and easy to train. Be grateful you have a dead head! it's much easier to get one going than to slow one down, and even thoughit's an inconvenience because no one has asked her to ever do anything than give "pony rides" to kids...be grateful for that because it shows how GOOD minded and quiet she really is. Get some weight off of her, get her into a regular routine, the RIGHT training and she'll surprise you!.


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## Thrill Ride (Feb 18, 2013)

I had a horse EXACTELY like yours!
She ended up being my show horse for a season.

She was a kids horse for many years, and never made to go.

Here is what I did or what I would do-
1. Lunge- lunge for 10-15 minutes before you ride to get her warmed-up and thinking. Trotting is the best. It gets their back loose.
2. Stretch- I don't know if you have heard of equine stretching but google it or look videos up on youtube. This is one thing that has helped a lot of my horses.
3. Riding- If she won't move forward, move her sideways. Grab that rein quick and strongly/firmly spin her in circles. If she won't move then start making a 'sssss' sound like a snake or a 'shhhh'. Almost everybody does that around here when they run barrels. And the moment they do it those horses hit the gas pedal. You need to get mad at her! Don't be light with her. 

The mare I had talked about above was the hardest horse to teach halter (showmanship). I tried every way in the world to get her to jog next to me. I even carried a dressage whip but it did nothing, I had someone get behind her and smack her which only worked for the time being. In the end I ended up having to just quickly turn towards her and smack her with my leather lead twice in the shoulder pretty hard everytime she decided not to jog. She perked up very quick and she ended up placing really high in showmanship in shows. 

With the same horse above I rode games with her. The first day I took her to the arena to practice games she walked in pretty much asleep. And she stopped and stood there. I kicked the crap out of her, we tried spinning her, we tried someone leading her. We had to get 2 roping horses behind her and push her. Once I put spurs on, she would walk in and run. She had no idea in her head at all of bulking up on me. After a few times with spurs I was able to take them off and she still wouldn't bulk up on me...

Leading off of that...

I rode my boss's horse last year and he ALWAYS rode in spurs. I tried riding her without spurs and she was a lazy old plug. I put the spurs on and she listened to everything.

I know a lot of horses around here that they were trained in spurs and nothing else works with them. 

But get her butt moving, if she won't move forward or backwards get her spinning! Also do lunging at a very fast pace trot because it will open up her back and also try some stretches 

Good Luck


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

GotaDunQH- Thanks for the comment! I have already been able to tell how much of a difference it has made, and how far she has come. When I first started riding her, to get her to walk over a log was a very difficult feat! Now she WANTS to walk over the logs, and I can tell she is really enjoying herself. 

Thrill Ride- Thanks for the comment! I have never had a horse that was a dead headed as she is/was. I have always had horses that wanted to go go go go go!!! So it has been a really strange thing for me to cope with. But she is doing so good! I wish she wasn't pregnant so I could ride her more, and get her into really good shape for some shows this summer, but I guess that will have to wait until later on.

I have a question for any/everyone that would like to answer. I plan on riding her once a week, about 15-30 minutes for the rest of the month, and then from May to her due date, I plan on letting her be a pasture pony. I don't want to work her too much, so I will keep at a walk, just so she doesn't get too rusty around the edges. How long after her delivery should I start riding her again? Immediately or should I wait a little while? (I will start off with a walk and maybe a little of trot work, nothing too serious) But I also will have the foal and I would like to get the foal to learn how to pony off of the mare. When could I start doing something like that? Thanks again everyone!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If you can only ride, not take her for walks or work her lightly otherwise, I'd be riding at least twice a week if poss, for the point of view of her health & fitness, and keep up the light stuff - just walking, until & after the foal - I'd give her a week or so off for the foal. But so long as it's light work, walking & such, the more the merrier - pregnant & new mothers of any species benefit from being fit too! ;-)

Re ponying, the foal will follow mum anyway, so if you have safe areas to do so, just let him come with you. ;-) But while you can teach him to yield to pressure gently & get used to wearing a halter & such straight away, I wouldn't be trying to lead from another horse, tying up, etc for quite some time, as a foal's soft bones & joints are very easily damaged. 

Don't forget foals also need their feet done, so getting them accustomed to all that sort of thing is important young, but keep in mind the soft bones for that too & don't torque joints or try to force issues with too much pressure. Make sure the farrier you employ appreciates that too.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/two-one-foaling-thread-167810/#post2117714

For anyone interested, here is the foaling thread.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

RiverBelle said:


> When I kick her to make her go, I squeeze with my calves, then squeeze with my heels, then kick, then kick again farther back her barrel. Like I said, before I used a whip, no matter how hard I kicked, nothing happened. But *that whip is really working better with her,* and I hope she will figure things out before long.


I'm glad a trainer is getting involved. Green/disobedient horses react suddenly to stimulii and are dull and unresponsive to cues.
Finished horses are calm, or at least stand and don't fuss and spook when things are hairy, but react immediately to cues.
I believe that you should lunge for respect, and perfect ALL leading behaviors with your horse. It may be boring as all get out, and it won't be perfect overnight, but it really helps later on when you are riding for your horse to treat you like the herd leader, who warns once, then kicks.
I would use a dressage length whip, and demand that your horse "heels", like a dog, head and neck next to your body when leading. If he falls back, you smack the whip backwards towards the girth and flank to teach proper leading.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

I had been wanting to do some leading exercises with her, but I have never really known how and it's hard to find any information on it. She does like to lag behind me when I lead her, which worries me that if she was to spook, she could run over me. But thanks for the tip! I'll try working with her on that some too!


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