# Help! Is it ever okay to smack them on the rear?



## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

My first reaction is no. I don't want to smack him it would break our bond and I am sure there is a gentler way. I am finding no way around it. 

I am a pretty green rider so I purchased a horse that said kid safe in huge letters with no vices. I rode him at the place I purchased him and he tested me a little bit but did what I asked. 

When I got him home he was good the first day but as he started to feel me out he realized I was not an aggressive rider. When I messaged the trainer who previously owned him he said I have to get somewhat physical with him while he is testing me. I didn't want to naturally but he is putting me in dangerous situations. 

He rears up when he can get his head up. Which I have gotten to almost go away just by fixing my riding errors. 

He takes me into corners and does not turn for anything. 

He drags me through trees. 

Does not respond to gentle pressure whatsoever. 

I do groundwork and love on him. But in the saddle he listens for about 10-45 minutes, depending on the day, then tries to go back to the barn. I have had him for a month and I have worked with him every single day and he always comes right to me from the start. 

But when I am cornered and he refuses to move in any direction at all. And rears if I try to turn him out and doesn't move when I kick him. 

Is it okay to smack him on the rear to get out of there.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

BlackTWH said:


> *My first reaction is no. I don't want to smack him it would break our bond and I am sure there is a gentler way.*



That one statement is where all your problems lie. A good relationship with a horse does not come from love and hugs and rainbow farts. It comes from mutual respect and good leadership. And yep, sometimes earning that respect from an animal a whole heck of a lot bigger and stronger than we are can get a little ugly at times. 

I do not condone beating a horse, but I will gladly give my horse a wallop if they deserve it. If I give my horse a light cue (an "ask") to move forward and he doesn't respond I will escalate to a slightly firmer cue (a "tell"). If he still chooses to ignore than you bet he's getting a smack on the rear (a "demand"). 

The problem you have got yourself in to is that you have let your horse take on the leadership role. Being inexperienced, you are not going to get that back from him without somebody more knowledgeable there with you to show you how.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

HowClever said:


> That one statement is where all your problems lie. A good relationship with a horse does not come from love and hugs and rainbow farts. It comes from mutual respect and good leadership. And yep, sometimes earning that respect from an animal a whole heck of a lot bigger and stronger than we are can get a little ugly at times.
> 
> I do not condone beating a horse, but I will gladly give my horse a wallop if they deserve it. If I give my horse a light cue (an "ask") to move forward and he doesn't respond I will escalate to a slightly firmer cue (a "tell"). If he still chooses to ignore than you bet he's getting a smack on the rear (a "demand").
> 
> The problem you have got yourself in to is that you have let your horse take on the leadership role. Being inexperienced, you are not going to get that back from him without somebody more knowledgeable there with you to show you how.


Thank you. I have had this problem for about three days and yesterday I tried smacking his rear. Then every time he tried to stray I would smack his rear and then make him work hard for a while. Switching from trot to canter in large circles. When he did what I asked I released all pressure and then allowed a walk. When he strayed again and I couldn't turn him I would smack him on the rear and work him again. 

Yesterday I got what I wanted but I just wasn't sure if it was okay. 

Is there anything else I should know? I am not afraid to try anything I have to. I know allowing him to get his way for a couple days can make him think he is in charge but I never gave up until I got what I wanted even if that meant getting off and walking him a couple times. I just want to make sure I do everything correctly.


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## LostDragonflyWings (Feb 1, 2012)

I agree with HowClever. A good bond has the foundation of respect. Your horse has learned to be the alpha and has picked up some very bad and dangerous (rearing) habits. My first TB (2nd horse) used to have a rearing problem when I first bought him, but rearing is probably the biggest thing that should not be tolerated. I can live with bucking and crow hopping, but rearing is pretty serious.

My current mount has a lot of respect for me, but a horse I take care of will test you over and over. I worked on the ground for months with that horse, and just finally rode him for the first time the other day. He has some bad habits, including crow hopping when he doesn't want to listen, being a nasty spooker, and pulls on the bit when you apply any type of pressure to it to halt. We will be needing to work on these issues and if he does not show quick progression in terms of respect, I will not hesitate to carry a crop during our rides. The rider should not be the horse's dummy to push around and toy with. It sounds like at this point you need to find a good trainer so you and your horse can learn to work together.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

LostDragonflyWings said:


> I agree with HowClever. A good bond has the foundation of respect. Your horse has learned to be the alpha and has picked up some very bad and dangerous (rearing) habits. My first TB (2nd horse) used to have a rearing problem when I first bought him, but rearing is probably the biggest thing that should not be tolerated. I can live with bucking and crow hopping, but rearing is pretty serious.
> 
> My current mount has a lot of respect for me, but a horse I take care of will test you over and over. I worked on the ground for months with that horse, and just finally rode him for the first time the other day. He has some bad habits, including crow hopping when he doesn't want to listen, being a nasty spooker, and pulls on the bit when you apply any type of pressure to it to halt. We will be needing to work on these issues and if he does not show quick progression in terms of respect, I will not hesitate to carry a crop during our rides. The rider should not be the horse's dummy to push around and toy with. It sounds like at this point you need to find a good trainer so you and your horse can learn to work together.


The rearing is a huge problem. I completely understand that but I didn't know how to go about fixing that. What I have seen is that when a horse rears you make them work and then go about what you were doing. If he rears again make him work. They say this can take hours but eventually they will understand that there are negative consequences. This I can do on my own.

I don't agree about the bucking however. He is not rearing to try to get me off of him and never shows serious aggression (like get off of me) it is me applying pressure one direction and him applying in another resulting in him moving up. The first problem was me allowing him to break out and pull his head up. I have gotten him to keep his head down to a point where he can not rear if he tried. And we have done some serious ground work that is focused on giving to the bit and that helps a lot.


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## LostDragonflyWings (Feb 1, 2012)

BlackTWH said:


> The rearing is a huge problem. I completely understand that but I didn't know how to go about fixing that. What I have seen is that when a horse rears you make them work and then go about what you were doing. If he rears again make him work. They say this can take hours but eventually they will understand that there are negative consequences. This I can do on my own.
> 
> I don't agree about the bucking however. He is not rearing to try to get me off of him and never shows serious aggression (like get off of me) it is me applying pressure one direction and him applying in another resulting in him moving up. The first problem was me allowing him to break out and pull his head up. I have gotten him to keep his head down to a point where he can not rear if he tried. And we have done some serious ground work that is focused on giving to the bit and that helps a lot.


How are you keeping his head down? I am sure he could still rear regardless, unless his head is tied tightly to his chest or something....


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

HowClever hit it dead on. Horses are not pets. Loving on them is for our benefit only. Some may like attention but we mistake it as affection. 

As long as there is a reason, ask-tell-demand with a smack, there is nothing wrong. If you smack for no reason or smack to start with, that is where you lose your bond or trust with the horse. 

You are not going to hurt the horse anywhere close to what another horse would with a kick. The do have good feeling in their skin where they can feel a fly land on them. However, they can also take a solid kick from another horse and hardly flinch from it. 

Hitting the horse when you're angry or frustrated is not good. Frustration begins where knowledge ends. If you're getting frustrated, take a step back, try something simpler or get some help. No one knows everything and we all need help at some point. There's nothing wrong with asking for help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

LostDragonflyWings said:


> How are you keeping his head down? I am sure he could still rear regardless, unless his head is tied tightly to his chest or something....


He could still break and rear yes. But before he hadn't really been worked on keeping it down. He is not going out of his way to rear I was just making it easy. Now I suggest/ask him to keep his head down by pushing at his poll slightly when he is behaving. The problem all starting when I would go to back him up. I was already pulling back his head was up and his balance was off. Thus rearing. I am simply teaching him to keep it down so now we don't run into the problem as much. The rearing was mostly my error. Offsetting his balance.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

If he rears, you being a green rider, I would wait for him to come back down and jump off and open a can of whoop a$$. That is NEVER okay. That's a good way to get yourself killed. When I say kick his ***, I mean get the end of your reins or a dressage whip, or crop, something, and chase him sideways with it. Backwards. Lunge him. Make him move until he realizes that holy crap, Mom means business. You would rather that then a horse who escalated to being flipped over backwards. Whether it's your error or not, he should NEVER even think about rearing.

Sure I may sound harsh, but the horse needs to respect you on ground and under saddle. Have you looked up Clinton Anderson? That would be a pretty good idea of what I am saying, and he can explain it a little better than I can.

Just remember, not everything is gentle but not everything is harsh either. Always ask with steady, gently pressure, and follow through with a harsher approach. He'll start reacting to the soft pressure pretty quick.

I really suggest finding a trainer to show you how to do these things...It will make all the difference.

For now, here's some videos from CA. The groundwork is pretty much all the same here, and you can see various disrespect issues that it can solve.






This one, you can see how aggressive this guy was getting for a minute there. Do NOT be afraid to do that if you feel you are in danger. Make them think if you get hurt, their lives may end too. 






I remember once my mare Selena struck out at me with her front leg. Never have I seen the "Oh ****" look come into her eyes when she realized I was not having any of that. We ran backwards, and I don't mean a sissy backup, I mean she was flying mach 20 away from me before I even took a step because she just knew she did wrong. I'll tell you though, she hasn't even thought about it since.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> If he rears, you being a green rider, I would wait for him to come back down and jump off and open a can of whoop a$$. That is NEVER okay. That's a good way to get yourself killed. When I say kick his ***, I mean get the end of your reins or a dressage whip, or crop, something, and chase him sideways with it. Backwards. Lunge him. Make him move until he realizes that holy crap, Mom means business. You would rather that then a horse who escalated to being flipped over backwards. Whether it's your error or not, he should NEVER even think about rearing.
> 
> Sure I may sound harsh, but the horse needs to respect you on ground and under saddle. Have you looked up Clinton Anderson? That would be a pretty good idea of what I am saying, and he can explain it a little better than I can.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot. I will do this the very next time he does anything remotely like a rear. I know everyone says to have a trainer come out but if I can get his respect and fix this that won't be necessary. And I have hours and hours of time. And I am youtubing Clinton Anderson now.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

What do you plan to do with this horse? It makes me nervous when you say "that won't be necessary", especially if you plan to use this horse for something that you are not ready for, but do not realize it. I mean no offense to you at all, but I would worry for your safety is all. 

You can check out his show on RFD-TV as well, and on downunderhorsemanship.tv


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> What do you plan to do with this horse? It makes me nervous when you say "that won't be necessary", especially if you plan to use this horse for something that you are not ready for, but do not realize it. I mean no offense to you at all, but I would worry for your safety is all.
> 
> You can check out his show on RFD-TV as well, and on downunderhorsemanship.tv


My only reason for saying it is unnecessary is because my boyfriends family trains horses. I haven't brought him up there yet but I am supposed to start. So I will be working with a trainer as far as teaching him beyond basic riding and trail riding which he already knows he is just testing me. For this particular problem I want to see what I can do and he has come a long way from when I got him to correcting these habits. I did have a family friend help a little on the rearing and he just said work on backing him on the ground and that should solve itself. The rearing was my fault. The walking himself to the barn is the big problem for now. The only thing he seems to respond to is a couple whacks on the rear and I wasn't sure if that was ethical as I have just seen a lot of "Never ever punish a horse ever for anything" online and in different training videos. 

I am really really trying. I hate to sound stupid or inexperienced I am inexperienced but I will gain his respect the right way if it takes me two years and a lot of fight. I am just making sure smacking him on the butt is not the wrong thing in that situation. Again he is not aggressive just stubborn and the previous owner told me he needs a strong hand. Unfortunately he tells me this after he is home for two weeks after I was told he was an excellent kid safe beginner horse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Black, a horse can't rear if you keep him moving. His body goes thro a number of transitions before it can happen. First he has to be able to plant his hind legs. In order to rear he has to rock back and this is when his body will bunch as he prepares to lift. You will feel him widen. Don't give him the opportunity to stop. When you feel him getting reluctant with forward movement get him moving in small circles, less than 20' and serpentines. This forces him to place his inside hind under his belly in front of his other leg. (Think removing a leg from a table. It will remain standing but it sure doesn't have the strength it did.) When you say you smack his butt, try the ribs behind your leg. If you do hit his rump it can provoke a buck. This is instinctive. I have found that after a horse has had a smack on the ribs, often just threatening to do it provides lots of incentive to do as you ask.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> Black, a horse can't rear if you keep him moving. His body goes thro a number of transitions before it can happen. First he has to be able to plant his hind legs. In order to rear he has to rock back and this is when his body will bunch as he prepares to lift. You will feel him widen. Don't give him the opportunity to stop. When you feel him getting reluctant with forward movement get him moving in small circles, less than 20' and serpentines. This forces him to place his inside hind under his belly in front of his other leg. (Think removing a leg from a table. It will remain standing but it sure doesn't have the strength it did.) When you say you smack his butt, try the ribs behind your leg. If you do hit his rump it can provoke a buck. This is instinctive. I have found that after a horse has had a smack on the ribs, often just threatening to do it provides lots of incentive to do as you ask.


Thanks!!!! I have realized that rears are preventable. I am so glad you said that about the smacking though because I do not want a bucking problem to arise. Before he does completely stop what should I do? I have gotten him to the point where reassuring him through talking and light pressure get him to keep moving when he feels reluctant but when he gets closer to the barn he will stop entirely. Won't move any direction, won't go in circles and if he does he will do a circle and then break it to walk to the barn or he will stop. Do I wait until he absolutely refuses or can I do something when I feel he is about to?


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

usandpets said:


> HowClever hit it dead on. Horses are not pets. Loving on them is for our benefit only. Some may like attention but we mistake it as affection.
> 
> As long as there is a reason, ask-tell-demand with a smack, there is nothing wrong. If you smack for no reason or smack to start with, that is where you lose your bond or trust with the horse.
> 
> ...


I have asked a lot for help. I was just seeing other opinions and ideas. I am starting to understand how horses act naturally and that helps a lot. I am not ashamed to admit when I need help I just know with his progress so far it is more of a time issue. I am just trying to figure out the best way possible to correct him rather than doing what works the fastest.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlackTWH said:


> Thanks!!!! I have realized that rears are preventable. I am so glad you said that about the smacking though because I do not want a bucking problem to arise. Before he does completely stop what should I do? I have gotten him to the point where reassuring him through talking and light pressure get him to keep moving when he feels reluctant but when he gets closer to the barn he will stop entirely. Won't move any direction, won't go in circles and if he does he will do a circle and then break it to walk to the barn or he will stop. Do I wait until he absolutely refuses or can I do something when I feel he is about to?


You can do a couple of things. First, ditto what another poster said about the rearing, quickest way out of that is to keep him moving forward at a working pace. That said, when he even thinks of slowing down, you tighten your leg and ask him to move out again. If he doesn't, I wear spurs and carry a crop, and I tap with a spur as more of a "Tell" him to move forward. If he still won't, I let him have it with spurs and crop, on his ribs, and I keep at it til he moves on. Not sissy gigs or taps, he gets both heels hard and whacks that get progressively harder. You can end up in a real fight here, so I'd recommend a trainer. 

When he tries to break the circle, grab the inside rein and pull his head clear to your knee if you have to, to keep him bent and circling, and apply your legs as hard as necessary to keep him moving. Get progressively tougher until he gives you what you want. Again, you can end up in a Hayell of a fight at this point, and you could end up getting hurt if it gets really ugly, so a trainer would be your best bet. 

Since you say you're a new rider, I'd really suggest taking the horse to a trainer to have those nasty little habits taken out of him, if you get into a fight with him, you could get hurt. Once the trainer re-educates him, you can ride safely and learn how to fix any issues as they crop up, under the trainer's supervision. MUCH SAFER way to go than what you're trying right now. 

Notice I said, when you feel HE"S GOING TO TRY to slow down, stop or break out of the circle, not wait til he does it. If you make him work for thinking about it, pretty soon he'll quit thinking dirty thoughts and just start listening to you. 

I don't care if the trainer is your boyfriend's uncle, a good trainer is a good trainer, and they can keep you safe. I've been riding for over 40 years and I can stick just about anything they want to throw at me, and I use a trainer to get the horse going where I want it and to work with me on various things. I don't bounce so good anymore, so I pay the trainer to take my lumps.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

A huge thanks to everyone! I rode him today eliminated rearing entirely. He tried to stop so I applied pressure. Eventually I just had to give him a 3/4 strength blow to the ribs. He did everything I wanted and when I could feel him giving signs that he was going to stop, slow down, or turn around I just had to lightly tap his rib. I also made him work really hard cantering in circles when he didn't stop all the way or moved without my permission. Did serious ground work and did not allow him to disrespect me at all. I may be a green rider as I have never rode a horse that didn't listen but I am learning and it is working. I will use a trainer but the basic problems I think I can handle now. So thank you guys again. 

And when I first got him he would not back up just rear. Now he backs up with a little bit of resistance but we are working on it. I am also really watching his form on everything to make sure I get it right.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You can do a couple of things. First, ditto what another poster said about the rearing, quickest way out of that is to keep him moving forward at a working pace. That said, when he even thinks of slowing down, you tighten your leg and ask him to move out again. If he doesn't, I wear spurs and carry a crop, and I tap with a spur as more of a "Tell" him to move forward. If he still won't, I let him have it with spurs and crop, on his ribs, and I keep at it til he moves on. Not sissy gigs or taps, he gets both heels hard and whacks that get progressively harder. You can end up in a real fight here, so I'd recommend a trainer.
> 
> When he tries to break the circle, grab the inside rein and pull his head clear to your knee if you have to, to keep him bent and circling, and apply your legs as hard as necessary to keep him moving. Get progressively tougher until he gives you what you want. Again, you can end up in a Hayell of a fight at this point, and you could end up getting hurt if it gets really ugly, so a trainer would be your best bet.
> 
> ...


Hopefully I won't need a crop and spurs but I will get some just in case. He is responding very well to me being aggressive and I will not let any of these habits resurface if they do I will most definitely call a trainer.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Black-I have a couple of thoughts. In reading your posts, I see a whole lot of making of excuses for the horse. I would caution you NOT to make excuses. You need to make him do as you ask. Period. However, I also have a horse (happens to be a black TWH X) who tests constantly. I have had trainers, and will continue to have I am sure, at times to "tune him up", as well as refresh ME in keeping him sharp. BUT, I have to be careful, and I would guess that your guy may be similar-he is NOT one you can put a whole lot of pressure on. Yes, you have to demand, but you also have to make sure he is not confused before you do that. Some horses-mine, and I suspect yours, are really too smart and too sensitive, and a trainer who is TOO harsh will get you nowhere. THey are very tricky to deal with for sure, and you really DO need professional help. I have been riding for 40+ yrs and this horse is a real challenge. Get help, and get it NOW before he really gets dangerous.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Do not for a minute believe that in one session you have ended his issues.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If a green rider had brought this horse onto my yard as a boarder I'd be advising them to take it back ASAP.
You want to learn to be a good rider then initially you need a horse that's going to help you do that - not one that will challenge you every inch of the way and take advantage of your inexperience
If you're determined to stick it out then you must get a good trainer to work with that can watch and advise and tell you what you may be doing wrong so you know how to correct it and be sure you are actually asking the horse in the right way and not confusing it.
Clinton is full of good advice but PLEASE remember he is very experienced, very tough, very confident and strong and knows exactly where to place himself to stay out of trouble
Your horse was trained by bullying and aggression and horses like that soon figure out if a new owner isn't like that and they turn the tables and become the bullies themselves. They don't make the best 'first horses'
Hope you can work things out but don't forget riding is supposed to be fun


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

My horse is generally a well-behave fellow, but I can tell minutes into the ride if he is going to be in one of "those moods". It rarely happens and it is not anything I can't control, but he'll give a buck or two at the canter. When this happens, all hell breaks loose in his world. He gets smacked on the butt with a dressage whip (which I always carry and rarely use for more than a small tap) kicked and spun around in circles, and then made to go onward. After such occasions, he is always a perfect angel for the rest of the ride. If I say go, he says how fast, and you get the picture. I ONLY get after him like that if he does something unacceptable like bucking, and because I make the work post buck so much harder than simply cantering around the arena the issue almost never presents itself. When it does, he is in for a rude awakening.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

This is getting out of hand. He is not my first horse just the first one that has acted up. If there is a behavior I don't want I will correct it. I have made a ton of progress and he will learn to ride the way I want him to. He will know my cues. The only way I can mess up is if I let him develop bad habits. I am perfectly confident in what I am doing because I have researched and it is working. He gets better everyday and that is what is supposed to happen if I need help I will call a trainer but if you can't train your own horse to do what YOU want it to do that is when you need a trainer. I have a recreational horse he needs to listen to me and behave on trails. If I want him to do something he has not yet been trained to do then I will teach him myself to the best of my ability. He is mine he is not dangerous and I will call a trainer if I so please.

Correction all horses are dangerous I am aware of that I mean I am not stupid enough to push him beyond his or my own level.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

BlackTWH said:


> This is getting out of hand. He is not my first horse just the first one that has acted up. If there is a behavior I don't want I will correct it. I have made a ton of progress and he will learn to ride the way I want him to. He will know my cues. The only way I can mess up is if I let him develop bad habits. I am perfectly confident in what I am doing because I have researched and it is working. He gets better everyday and that is what is supposed to happen if I need help I will call a trainer but if you can't train your own horse to do what YOU want it to do that is when you need a trainer. I have a recreational horse he needs to listen to me and behave on trails. If I want him to do something he has not yet been trained to do then I will teach him myself to the best of my ability. He is mine he is not dangerous and I will call a trainer if I so please.
> 
> Correction all horses are dangerous I am aware of that I mean I am not stupid enough to push him beyond his or my own level.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HUH??:shock: You are the one who came here stating that you were a "pretty green rider". YOU are the one who asked if it was OK for you to smack your horse on the butt, which, pretty much gets answered in about the first 5 lesson sessions anywhere I have been. This really tells me you ARE pretty inexperienced. 

Not sure what you think is "out of hand"? People saying you need to control your horse? Tell you what. You do exactly what YOU want with YOUR horse, with all the butterfly kisses you want, and you will see out of hand. Guaranteed. 

Enjoy your horse, and stay safe. I am out. Good luck.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

I meant people telling me to send the horse back. That doesn't help my problem. A trainer I am not against but some people are telling me that I shouldn't be on him. That is what bothered me sorry for the confusion


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I find you are handling this thread pretty well. I think we need to remember everyone, we have seen inexperienced riders with green horses cause hell on this forum. Black TWH legitimately wants to learn and is taking our advice, and I think it is great that she says she is making progress. Like she said as well, she will get him to a trainer soon. 

I want to reassure you that ALL of these problems are fixable. I can tell from working at a trainer's and getting to work with problem horses but also because my mare used to a saddle bronc. I mean really, she'd blow up at random times for no reason, and it was really bad. It's funny because I've never fallen off of her, but I thought for sure she'd find a way to kill me one of these days. But check her out now...






Keep us updated


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Thank you all very much. I'm sorry I got frustrated. I appreciate everything everyone has said. And Sorrel your horse looks great  that's awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MGTS (May 13, 2013)

In a nutshell - be firm, be persistant. Keep him MOVING, keep those feet moving and he can't go UP. Dont be afraid to smack him - carry a crop, it is not a "weapon" it is a basic extension of your hand, it can reach where you cannot physically without putting yourself out of position/balance. Work on him moving off your leg - forward AND sideways. Use your voice, dont be afraid to be FIRM.

There is no physical way you could "smack" him with your bare hand or a crop harder than another horse could kick him unless you literally let your temper get out of hand (which from your posts I dont really see happening).


I deal with youngsters all day long. The trainer we just sent our 2 y.o. too was quite pleased to have a colt in his barn that "understood his place" but yet still has that "fire" in him. He likes to remind me that that will likely change while he is there - at home he is out in the gelding herd to help remember his manners, there he is solo - but I kindly reminded him that while I dont mind him having "attitude" at no point to I want to find out he has been allowed to become an "alpha" when in hand. The guy had not seen us work him before and allowed me the time to pull him out and work him with my daughter under foot like we did at home. When we were done he said that now he understood why the colt was the way he was - I expect obedience, I dont tolerate foolishness, I allow a bit of playfulness, but I expect respect and him to stay out of my space. He watched him stand while brushed by my 3 year old (with me lifting her up), she rubbed his legs (with me standing there), I lift his feet and she cleaned them, then he dropped his head for his hugs & kisses when I was done. Through that he was corrected verbally a few times and each time he moved back to where he was. Nothing that consistancy and time didnt teach. You'll mange it. Just dont be afraid to get after him when he needs it.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I think it's worth pointing out, that the swiftness of the correction is far more important than the force of it. A well timed small pop of the crop on the butt immediately after the moment of disobedience is far more effective than a harder, longer whop that was applied too late. Horse's respond to quickness. If you do it quickly enough, you can pretty much just flick him with the lash and still get your point across. To the horse that says, "I didn't hurt you, but I could have if I wanted to". John Lyons once said something to the effect of, any time a horse does something bad, you have 3 seconds to make his life miserable. After that it is absolutely useless. 

Also, any time you use a loud aid for any correction, it is important to go back and give the horse the opportunity to do the thing you wanted correctly a second time. Hopefully, at worst, you will only have to use a lighter correction. It sounds like you are making great progress. You've obviously got the trainer gene in you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sorry but your first post seems to have given some mixed messages because you did say you were a green rider and asking if a smack on the butt was OK - not something an experienced rider would be asking
The horse was sold to you as suitable and sensible then turned out not to be, rearing is a pretty dangerous vice for a green rider to take on and even as an experienced rider I wouldn't buy a rearer unless it was a freebie or close to that but if you're confident you can deal with it then I wish you the best of luck.
Whatever anyone says to you the problem is yours. If you ask for opinions then you have to accept that they might not always be the ones you want to hear but no one was rude or offensive


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Most problems people end up having with their horses comes from the owner/handler not knowing enough to be dealing with the horse, coupled with the "I don't want to make my horsey mad at me".

And it does not matter HOW kid safe a horse is, or how well trained. IF that horse picks up that the owner has no clue? Then you end up with a spoiled, resistant horse. 

And your attitude as to you should be able to train your own horse, would be like you going to an Electricians Forum and telling those people that "everyone that lives in a house should be able to be able to wire their own house." See how far that gets you.

As for the whole "horse can't rear if moving forwards" thought? The problem with that is too often the rider can NOT get the horse to move forwards at all. And if you think that a horse only rears if it is "confused or conflicted"? Then you need to rethink that.

Horses rear quite often because they have learned it is a way to get out of doing something. Or because they want to test to see if it will get rider scared.

Also, repeatedly cantering horse in circles for a long time to "punish them" accomplishes nothing. Tires horse out for that time, but so what? Horses do not stand around and think "man, I had to run around in circles for 2 hours, I am not going to do that again" and resolve to do better next time.

Much of the problems you are having? Comes from your mindset of "I don't want to be forceful, I want my horsey to love me and be trained" which is wrong one to have. The rest come from your inexperience.

Horse has found out you don't have a clue. We have found out that you, like so many others, want to make excuses for horse and yourself, and want to argue with people who know more than you do about horses, their handling, and problems therein.

As FnB said? You have in no way solved anything, horse will just regroup. As for watching CA? I can think of no one worse to watch.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Palomine said:


> Most problems people end up having with their horses comes from the owner/handler not knowing enough to be dealing with the horse, coupled with the "I don't want to make my horsey mad at me".
> 
> And it does not matter HOW kid safe a horse is, or how well trained. IF that horse picks up that the owner has no clue? Then you end up with a spoiled, resistant horse.
> 
> ...


Ok This is your opinion and I appreciate that however. My horse has not reared again since I was aggressive one time and hasn't even tried. 

With the cantering just a few times my horse now comes to an absolute complete stop with very light pressure and me leaning back in the saddle and will not move without my cue. 

He is learning to back up and he doesn't even think of rearing because he knows I now will not allow it.

He comes to me in the pasture.

He goes into the areas he used to rear before going into without question. And everyday he is getting better. 

Don't tell me I can't because everyone is a trainer for their own horse. Everyday I go out he is either better or worse. He is getting better and I have found a lot of information that has helped me. And I have found a lot of things I didn't realize he was doing to disrespect me that seemed small and fixing those has fixed a lot of his other disrespect issues. We are bonding and he is realizing I am the lead mare. I will have someone help me but you don't know how much time I have put into him or how far we have come. At first I didn't know what I was doing but I am learning and so is he. And I actually talked to a trainer yesterday who said keep doing absolutely everything I am doing. So I am working on his problems and in a little time his bad habits will not be an issue. His only other advice was work on backing him on the ground.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

MGTS said:


> In a nutshell - be firm, be persistant. Keep him MOVING, keep those feet moving and he can't go UP. Dont be afraid to smack him - carry a crop, it is not a "weapon" it is a basic extension of your hand, it can reach where you cannot physically without putting yourself out of position/balance. Work on him moving off your leg - forward AND sideways. Use your voice, dont be afraid to be FIRM.
> 
> There is no physical way you could "smack" him with your bare hand or a crop harder than another horse could kick him unless you literally let your temper get out of hand (which from your posts I dont really see happening).
> 
> ...


Thank you  I am really working on staying absolutely consistent and keeping everything the same as not to confuse him.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

I just wanted to clear a few things up. I began working with a buddy sour horse about six months ago. She was my sister's horse that hadn't been ridden in a long time. I got her to be able to ride in the pasture with her buddy to ride in our riding area. It started with a little bit of time but eventually I could keep her out for a couple hours. We did however have a third horse.

Our third horse was very old and died. This made the buddy in the pasture obviously very distressed. The bond between the two grew stronger and then my horse became dangerous for me to take out. I needed a trainer for her yes but I couldn't afford one and my parents wanted to sell her as it was my sister's not mine. That and I didn't even think to hit her because again I read it in a training article that you shouldn't hit a horse that is scared and she was obviously afraid to leave her buddy. That I know for a fact I needed help with. 

Long story short I put three months everyday working her to where I could ride her and our third horse died. My parents sold her and I was devastated. 

I bought my own horse and am now doing everything I can to do this right. I never had to hit the other one because a couple circles when she acted up was enough and she rarely if ever acted up. And when she got too distressed I walked her back to her buddy for awhile then went out again noting her body language to see where she was comfortable. I am going to take him to a trainer but please realize my parents are only helping a little and I work at a fast food restaurant not exactly ideal for paying for extensive horse things. He needs feed, and shoes, and vet care and I need gas. I am consulting with a lot of people one being a trainer others are experienced horse riders. My question resulted from me reading more than one article that said never ever is it ok to hit/punish a horse and was completely confused.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

what everyone is saying on this thread is true..im paying the consequences of given to much love to miover, he now walks all over me...you tube can help, but you need 1 on 1 help,..every horse is different, so ur horse maybe different to the one on internet and have different requirements of training methods...horses are not stupid..they know who they can pull it over.

a horse can work fine for 1, but if a begginner gets on, they act totally different and testy...i for 1 am prime example of that

go look at my thread..horse leading...i am a prime example of being a softy, and it does NOT get u anywhere esp with an ottb they have plenty of tricksup there sleeve!


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

I am no softy lol. I just thought that if the internet said it on a bunch of sources maybe there was a way without the smacking. I know better now and I can demand respect because in all honesty he is a very heavy animal that has the potential to kill me.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

BlackTWH said:


> I just wanted to clear a few things up. I began working with a buddy sour horse about six months ago. She was my sister's horse that hadn't been ridden in a long time. I got her to be able to ride in the pasture with her buddy to ride in our riding area. It started with a little bit of time but eventually I could keep her out for a couple hours. We did however have a third horse.
> 
> Our third horse was very old and died. This made the buddy in the pasture obviously very distressed. The bond between the two grew stronger and then my horse became dangerous for me to take out. I needed a trainer for her yes but I couldn't afford one and my parents wanted to sell her as it was my sister's not mine. That and I didn't even think to hit her because again I read it in a training article that you shouldn't hit a horse that is scared and she was obviously afraid to leave her buddy. That I know for a fact I needed help with.
> 
> ...


ur horse does NOT care if he kicks you, ur horse does NOT care he reared you off, it is NOT okay for him to do that, a tap on the rear aint going to solve that

last time like 6 months ago miover turned his butt to me because i wanted him out of my space i gave him a big smack on the butt, he sure did move and never did that again, but that doesnt mean he wont try it again.

lunging he took to charging at me, my mistake i moved away from him, he WON he knew he could move my feet.

this is a very good clip of how a mumma horse teaching foal manners


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks that is what I have been trying to do.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

yeah me to they make it look easy LOL...ive tried their version of nip on but and miover stops and raises head LOL


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

BlackTWH, I understand where you are coming from. A friend got a new horse that had hardly been handled. I worked with the horse so I could get the hooves cleaned. While cleaning one of his back hooves, he tried to kick me. My first reaction was to smack him with my hand. He wasn't very trusting to begin with and that undid all the work I had done to be able to clean his hooves. 

So yes there are times hitting a horse is bad. However, that doesn't mean you should never smack them. 

Use as little pressure as possible but as much as necessary. Ask, tell, demand. Sometimes to demand, you need to give them a tap, smack or even a whack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Palomine said:


> As for watching CA? I can think of no one worse to watch.


I see you saying this a lot and I REALLY want to know your reasoning. I am not a CA follower in the sense that I own every dvd and the handy stick and string, but I have gone to his clinics and had the pleasure of working and speaking with him. I agree with everything in your post EXCEPT that. I can think of a lot of worse trainers than him, and regardless I find that he explains things to beginners very well.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

*Originally Posted by Palomine 
As for watching CA? I can think of no one worse to watch.*

i like CA..everyones preference is different..only bad in ur eyes doesnt mean he is bad for everyone, anf doesnt make it wrong that people follow him

i like what he says..one big whack is better then a thousand little ones


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

To each their own with who they do or don't like. Everyone has their reasons. But to put a blank statement that you should avoid such and such trainer for no reason told isn't right. 

I've said before, I like CA because he's easy to understand and follow along. He gives a reason why to do things instead of this is what you do, period. I do follow his techniques but haven't bought a single thing he sells. You don't have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

BlackTWH said:


> My first reaction is no. I don't want to smack him it would break our bond and I am sure there is a gentler way. I am finding no way around it.
> 
> I am a pretty green rider so I purchased a horse that said kid safe in huge letters with no vices. I rode him at the place I purchased him and he tested me a little bit but did what I asked.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a hand full. All riders were green at one time, and some still are, and they buy green broke horses for one reason or another. I do.

I have had two green broke horse that I needed to work with and one well trained one. NO such thing as a bomb proof horse they all revert to instinct when the need arises. My present acqusitions are one green broke gelding and one well trained mare. AS for getting him to move. Redirect him by asking him to move his front feet to the side, then forward, it has worked for me. It is important from the respect angle to get him to move.

Lets take the mare for example. Great horse for the first 4 weeks then it all turned to poo. She decided she was the boss and I had to fight her for that position. She also had to learn my signals and I HAD to learn hers. She would let me know if I was doing something that annoyed her and I had to find a way to get her to do what I wanted, while she thought she was doing what she wanted, Bit like a relationship only one winner.

Did I ever hit her, Yes, and it in my opinion was a mistake. The best responce was a loud growl it worked most times.

Now for the green broke horse. He tries to rear when loading into the float A new behavour he is trying it on. A loud growl and a sharp pull to the side on the lead rope then presented to the float again and in he went. He will get over that. Rearing when in the saddle that can be a hard one but i tied his head down a little so he could not thrash it backwards and hit me which made it a little harder to rear. Also the growl, must remember the growl and it is instant. Not 30 seconds later as he has moved on and has no idea what is wrong.

Once he has done what you want right repeat that daily untill it is ingrained.

The replys you have recieved have all been well intended so don't feel you have been got at.

I have a problem with one of my horses loading she will flatly refuse and she is a little large to try and force. On one attempt she was 90 per cent in and would not go the rest, and when I tried to be forcefull she ever so lightly lifted the back leg in a threat. Only just off the ground I spotted it taped it with the wip and growled. She put it down again. its a game who is the boss.

And on leaving, I to want to train my horse to do what I want when I want. I have learnt it is a partnership but there has the be the boss and then the second in command The horse is second.

If the horse does something that you do not have the experience to deal with, get in some one who can deal with it. In the long run it saves the horse getting confused, and you, as I have done, learnt a new trick to add to the ones needed when owing a horse.

Good luck. keep posting and asking questions. You may not always like the answers but generally folks on this forum are well meaning.

As always I own the spelling mistakes.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

A foot note 

One of my mare's tried to bite me. My instant responce was to give her a bunch of fives right on the snout She never did that again. The only time I have really hauled off and hit a horse.

She was a little head shy for a week or so but got over it.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread either (my disclaimer), but here's my 2 cents. 

*I* think that if you wouldn't let a dog do it, don't let a horse do it. And by that, I mean...have you ever known those people with the snotty little nasty dogs? **** dogs get away with everything...being snarky over food, nipping, acting dominant etc. Heck, everyone going into my BIL's house is told "don't make eye contact" with the Chihuahua or he'll bark all day (and try to bite!!!). I mean, worst dog ever, tiny little *******, but he RULES THAT HOUSE.

Now, people have horses, and they let them get away with crazy crap, all for the same reason: they don't know how to make an ANIMAL respect them, for whatever reason or another. Now, we're all told that a dog is happiest knowing the chain of command so to speak...if he knows you're alpha, you have a lot less snark. Well it seems to be the same with horses...this girl at my barn, her QH mare walks all over her, nasty beast. Walks right through her, pulls...just bossy. I told her that if the mare won't get out of her way, walks through her etc...smack her butt with the lead rope! I mean this poor lady is being dragged across the yard by this mare! She says in this aghast voice that "No, I can't do that", all while trying to pull back on this thousand plus pound bag of muscle.

...And next thing you know, she's wanting to sell that mare.

Long story short is, the horse is probably happier if you're in charge...less work for him. And the horse will be a heck of a lot more enjoyable if it respects you! The thing is, that if you let them walk all over you, any horse will take advantage! I'm no trainer...but it seems to me that "taking advantage" is something that just about any animal will do, given a chance. So don't take this in a bad way, because it's not intended that way but....as they say "grow a backbone", stand up to your horse, gain it's respect, and you will have a much better time together, and even strengthen the "bond" you desire.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

thanks everyone! I have some done the things suggested and there is no rearing or walking back to the barn or into trees. He also backs up without the threat to rear! It has been going great and he is learning I am the boss. He did step on my foot once which is disrespectful but it was getting dark and I didn't get him in soon enough and he couldn't see that well. And I corrected that and he stayed back. Now he is a joy! Of course he will tense up but I reassure him when I feel something about to happen and he loosens up! I am so happy! I know it is a work in progress but it is coming along !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

CA is certainly a very good trainer but people forget that he's also very strong, tough and experienced so he knows where to put himself to stay out of danger and I think some people watching him work with problem horses can think its easier than it is and so take on more than they can deal with
Getting that aggressive with certain horses can go badly wrong - he has the insight to know when & where to use those techniques that an inexperienced person might not - a defensive horse will turn on you without even a second thought no matter how hard you punch it
Theres also a real risk that you're punishing a horse for something that's actually your fault


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## Thrill Ride (Feb 18, 2013)

I ride a horse who needs a rider that knows her.

So a few things:
1) Have a vet check her teeth. The horse I am currently riding I hadn't rode for about half a year and when I saddled her up in the fall she would not turn, kept balking, etc... After getting teeth done she changed.

2) Have a trainer AND/OR saddle fitter/maker checker her to see if your tack is fitting correctly. This was also one of our issues.

I got a custom saddle maker who is very very well known to come out and he helped me for free. I'm sure you can find one to come out for free 

----

Now that you have ruled out those things... Now behavioral:
1) Discipline him! I am not one to like to use a crop because then I believe in not the right hands the horse can get used to not listening without it. Back his butt up! I was at a show with a 'built like a tank thoroughbred' riding western and she would not walk forward because she was buddy sour, at the end of the show I turned her around and backed her from the arena all the way to the trailer. Which wasn't the shortest distance away either. Don't jerk back on their head, ask your horse to back using foot cues, not rein cues. A foot cue means "move" not go "forward". 

2) Spin, if he won't go forwards, get his head around and if he won't turn start bumping his outside shoulder until he does move. 

3) If he doesn't do what you ask him to do, tell him to do it. Ride with your body more. I ride 2/3 with foot cues and the rest with rein cues. When you turn don't just pull the rein, give a foot cue to move his hip and shoulder. When I stop the horse I ride from a canter I sit back then give a quick bump at the girth with 2 legs and she will stop. If I need to add some rein in there I will.


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks everyone I appreciate this. After trying a lot of these techniques he doesn't rear, backs quietly, and comes to complete stops. We are still working on these things but he just gets testy I quickly reassure him if he starts thinking of misbehaving and the second he starts to misbehave and even a hair before I rebuke him and he does what I ask


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

It is great that you are getting results from him so quickly! I'm glad to hear that he isn't fighting you. Sometimes horses will fight harder when they get reprimanded, and it's easy for people to give up too soon. It's important to never let the horse win, no matter how big of a fight you get into. 

Keep us posted and keep up the good work!


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## BlackTWH (Jun 7, 2013)

He is so much better  I would say we really aren't having problems anymore. We are polishing things everyday and we always will be but he being really good and calm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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