# Evolution or creationism: which do you prefer?



## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

This is my first time attempting to make a poll thread so bear with me if the poll is faulty!

It has come to my attention that only 39% of Americans believe in evolution, which I find a little surprising especially since it is often taught in schools. I personally do believe in the theory of evolution because of the overwhelming evidence for it. So, what do you believe is true? Healthy debate is welcome, mindless arguing is not.


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

Evolution. There pretty much hasn't been a doubt in my mind about it ever. The evidence, as you say, is overwhelming.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

They are both "theory's" so neither can be proven...yet. I'm holding my opinion until one or the other is cold hard scientific fact. I'm sure I will be holding it a long time.

One relys on faith the other science, I believe in both :lol:


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## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

Evolution. Always have and always will.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> They are both "theory's" so neither can be proven...yet. I'm holding my opinion until one or the other is cold hard scientific fact. I'm sure I will be holding it a long time.


This is a point that I hear quite often. However, it is necessary to understand the definition of a theory. A theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge". Basically, a theory is something that is well-supported and usually accepted as true. The nature of science thrives on skepticism and doubt to create positive change, and the theory of evolution has gone through this. By comparison, creationism is more of a hypothesis- an idea created on observation that has not yet been widely proven, a proposal. For a hypothesis to become a theory, it must be "testable" to be proven true.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I believe in a mix of intelligent design and evolution. I believe that God made the first humans and a large selection of the first animals/plants etc, then evolution kinda took over and created the life forms we know today.

I choose to believe that becuase of my spiritual beliefs and because I don't see how it's possible for 2 humans to magically rise out of the ocean within 30/40 years of each other. I don't see how that's possible. But I do believe that it's likely for horses, for instance, to have all started out with a common ancestor then changed over the years into the horses we know as horses today. Same thing with dogs and wolves, if God created a wolf I don't see why a dog could have come from that eventually.

That's just my belief. 

With your 39% poll number thingy, I think that mostly stems from that fact that the US is still, fundamentally, based on christian values. Most of my friends in school (public school) would have called themselves "christians" and would have reverted back to the creation story from the Bible when anyone questioned them about evolution/creatonism. Those kids were not living any semblance of a "christian" life and if you asked them what they believed in, they most likely wouldn't know, but for some reason they held on the creation story like their lives depended on it. haha
Also, at least at my high school, biology was not a required course for most kids. None of the more advanced sciences were actually, so most kids at my school never learned about genetics/how plants work/chemistry, that sorta thing. I took Biology and even though the teacher was an evolution fanatic, her way of explaining how evolution worked mainly revolved around her overhead projector, a few overheads of neonatal animals that looked like each other and the question "why do these fetuses look the same if they aren't related through evolution?". Needless to say, that didn't really convince anyone.

Goodness, I wrote a lot. Haha


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Im Agnostic. I don't know if there's a great creator out there or what that entails, I don't think any of us will ever know. However, I think there certainly could be. 
So in that regard I agree with Wallaby. I believe in evolution. It's hard for me to understand how you could not. However I think it's possible for there to be a God as well as evolution.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

I believe some things are created perfect, while others are not. Some things have evolved, there is proof. There has been an evolution of finches (i believe its a finch) that has been documented recently. 
Tiny organisms, and even large ones have gone unchanged for centuries, while people are constantly evolving from what they were a few hundred years ago (intellect and looks.)


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

I voted uncertain,

since I belive these two different views don't rule each others out.

ETA: Over here they teach both of theories in the school but doesn't offer them as unquestionable truth, especially the religious one. (Over here over 70% of people are evangelical lutherans and that's why there are religious education in school. If you aren't a member of that church you don't need to participate and I assume then you won't been taught that Christian creationism theory).


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

I do not, and will not ever associate myself with evolution or intelligent design. I am a Christian, I believe God created the universe, earth, the plants, the animals, and the ecosystems for each one. And that He has a purpose for each and every organism on this planet and others out there in the universe if there are such.

And going back to the OP's fact that you are surprised that only 39% of those in schools believe in Evolution. Think about this. When I was in 9th grade, my BIOLOGY teacher was a dead-on Christian, and even though he did not believe in what he was teaching, didn't stop him from following curriculum. He told us all at the beginning of the year, that he was only teaching what he was told to, and that those of us who disagreed with the teachings, did not have to participate.
You want to know the amount of us in the class who actually stood up for what we believed in, and indeed almost got failed because our teacher still graded by normal standards even though he disagreed himself? 6 of us, out of the 28 in that class. I still never found out if anyone else in the class besides those 6, including myself who stood up for our faith(we all almost failed because we did stand firm in what we believed) just lied about their faith, or just were ignorant and acted as if it didn't bother them just to get a perfect grade.
My point is, those facts about the 39% may be off. Whether it be greater in the Evolution percentage, or the other percentage is beyond me. But what I'm saying is. As sad as it makes me, it's true. Not all of us who disagree with the theories of Evolution, Intelligent Design, and whatnot-else, actually speak up for it.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

My Biology professor last semester was a Christian. He is also an Ecologist. He is extremely religious, however he is also a scientist. He pointed out a lot of things that I thought were interesting. I have a few questions, not meant as an attack, for those who do not believe in Evolution based on the Bible. I don't know why you would fail a class because it doesn't line up with your faith. Classes are not meant to tell you this is fact (Especially Science classes. Nothing in Science is absolute), they are meant to educate you on various theories (At least Science classes). I am always left to wonder with statements like that, why aren't people willing to hear other peoples points? It doesn't mean you have to be any less solid in your own beliefs. I think it rounds you out. 

I digress though. I have some questions for those that do not believe in Evolution (regardless of if they believe in Creationism or not)

Do you believe in Natural Selection? Obviously there is Artificial Selection which can cause animals to change and evolve, but what about Natural Selection?

Do you not agree with the idea that simple organisms arose before complex organisms? 

What about Fossil records? IE one species exists, then tapers off as a new yet similar species appears?

Speciation can occur in artificial settings, why not in natural?


Not meaning to start an argument..just curious


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

roro said:


> This is a point that I hear quite often. However, it is necessary to understand the definition of a theory. A theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge". Basically, a theory is something that is well-supported and usually accepted as true. The nature of science thrives on skepticism and doubt to create positive change, and the theory of evolution has gone through this. By comparison, creationism is more of a hypothesis- an idea created on observation that has not yet been widely proven, a proposal. For a hypothesis to become a theory, it must be "testable" to be proven true.


I understand the theory of Darwin's natural selection is pretty much a given. Creationism is more along the lines of hypothesis and relies on faith. Its what came before that, the series of events that was the origins of life that stump me. Back to the primordial soup stuff. Trust me I'm more of a science geek than a religious person. Its one of those "I wish I had paid attention in biology class" things. :lol:


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't see why believing in evolution means that you don't believe in God. Or for that matter believing in God means you cannot believe in evolution? 

Do I believe in evolution? Yes, although there are holes in the theory and the fossil record is remarkably incomplete. There is quite a bit of DNA, chemical (just about the same thing anyways), fossil, and developmental evidence to show that evolution is a reality. Of course, science being science it isn't going to call something a fact until it's completely proven. People who haven't studied all the information usually don't believe in it. Not surprising at all if you look at the history of humans and their collective willingness to believe in science. Even after it's been proven like the existence of microorganisms, earth revolving around the sun, earth being round, etc, etc. 

Do I believe in God? 100% My own personal belief is that there is a "god" (or whatever you want to call the higher power). I can't explain what god is. My puny human mind isn't capable :lol:. I think that god has used and continues to use evolution, nature, and science to explain and direct. Just another tool in the toolbox. Or something like that anyways, I haven't actually articulated this idea before although I've been thinking about it for years. 

It never fails to amuse me that people still fall for the same old fight. Religion vs Science. Personally, for me and many of the top scientists (many of which are very religious/spiritual), there isn't a fight. Why are people so afraid to actually learn the opposing veiwpoint? I wonder if the religious people are afraid to challenge their faith? Are the science geeks among us afraid to challenge theirs?


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I don't see why believing in evolution means that you don't believe in God. Or for that matter believing in God means you cannot believe in evolution?
> 
> Do I believe in evolution? Yes, although there are holes in the theory and the fossil record is remarkably incomplete. There is quite a bit of DNA, chemical (just about the same thing anyways), fossil, and developmental evidence to show that evolution is a reality. Of course, science being science it isn't going to call something a fact until it's completely proven. People who haven't studied all the information usually don't believe in it. Not surprising at all if you look at the history of humans and their collective willingness to believe in science. Even after it's been proven like the existence of microorganisms, earth revolving around the sun, earth being round, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Exactly! thanks for putting it into the words I could not


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Vidaloco said:


> I understand the theory of Darwin's natural selection is pretty much a given. Creationism is more along the lines of hypothesis and relies on faith. Its what came before that, the series of events that was the origins of life that stump me. Back to the primordial soup stuff. Trust me I'm more of a science geek than a religious person. Its one of those "I wish I had paid attention in biology class" things. :lol:


Theres a really cool experiment I can't remember the name of. Basically they created the atmosphere of the Earth when it was in it's baby stages. After a period of weeks, changes started to occur which made it possible for life to begin. Oxygen was formed, and a bunch of other stuff happened (We talked about it the beginning of the semester so I can't remember all the details. I'll try and find it later today. Basically it showed it is possible to create life from nothing. (The beginnings for a simple organisim were occuring) The test has been done over and over and hasnt been disproved yet.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

No problem Vida  I've spent a lot of time thinking about it over the years. I should really write a little mini paper. LOL. 

Spastic - I've heard of that expirement, but I don't remember what it was called. Love to see it when you find it. Let me know if you need help, I think I still have access at school.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Is this it? Miller?Urey experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## snoggle (Jun 13, 2009)

I don't see how it is possible to not believe in evolution - we see the evolution of viruses and bacteria all the time - the HIV virus has evolved a ton (that is part of what makes treating it so difficult) - it responds to selective pressure and evolves. This is how we end up with so many antibiotic resistant bacteria and antiviral resistant viruses. It is easier to see in viruses and bacteria because of the very fast generation times, but there is a lot of evidence of selective pressure and evolution in other species and the fossil record. 

As far as religion - I've never understood why some people don't see evolution as god's method. They do not have to be separate from one another. The bible says it happened in 7 days - what is a day to god? I don't believe you can take most of the teachings in the bible literally (how many old testament guys lived to be like 500 - really?). Isn't it possible that he has used evolution to create the universe and all that is in it? 

I also never understood the need to fail a class or even a test because you don't agree with what you are being taught - believe me I didn't agree with everything when I was in college or grad school - but you suck it up, learn from the experience, and finish. Are people afraid that their faith is so weak that learning something different would ruin it for them? I think challenging one's faith with other viewpoints only strengthens one's argument and deepens faith.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Evolution. 100% I have never and will never believe anything else


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

I am totally a creationist. I believe that God created the earth and everything in it. There are so many things in nature that defy evolution and show that there must have been a creator.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm curious if you have examples of things that defy evolution? And I'm curious why believing in evolution means that there isn't a creator/God?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes Vida! That's the one.  Thanks for finding it.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes, I actually just saw a video on different animals that show that they could not have evolved. Here are a few examples. Many people that believe evolution believe there is no God. I didn't say that everyone that is an evolutionist doesn't believe in God! I'm just saying that I believe there must have been a creator.

*Bombardier Beetle* -- This lowly creature defends itself in a very interesting manner; its body has two sacks of chemicals that explode when added together, but are benign when kept separately. Thus, the first capability is that this beetle has two separate sacks that keep the chemicals separate until the beetle needs the chemical to protect itself.
The second capability is that the beetle has an asbestos type lining in his "firebox" in which the chemicals are added. This "firebox" lining keeps the chemical explosion from destroying the body of the beetle when it explodes outward. 
However, a third capability is needed to keep the explosion that occurs right outside the body of the beetle from blowing the beetle away when the stream of explosive chemical erupts out of the body. If the stream were continuous, the beetle would be blown away from the chemical coming out its body; however, the beetle pulsates his stream in tiny, continuous droplet pulsation. Thus, the stream of explosive material is not continuous, so the beetle is not killed by his own protective mechanism!
Three very complicated, but cooperating capabilities had to come together at once in this beetle. 
Thus, the Bombardier Beetle by itself utterly disproves Evolution.

*Giraffe *-- this "lowly" animal also contains three unique, cooperating capabilities.
Because the neck of the Giraffe extends so high into the air, the heart must contain an extraordinarily strong pump to force the blood from the lower body to the highest reaches of the brain. Thus, the first capability unique to the giraffe is a heart that is also a most powerful pump.
However, when the giraffe lowers its neck to drink, the blood that is circulating in its neck will suddenly come rushing down by the force of gravity. This sudden rush of blood is so strong, it would quickly cause the giraffe to suffer a brain aneurysm, killing the animal instantly. Therefore, the second capability is that spigots are built into his neck arteries that instantly close down whenever the animal lowers its neck to drink water.
However, when the giraffe abruptly raises its head after drinking, the blood would flow so rapidly downward through the force of gravity that the animal would suffer a sudden loss of blood to the brain, thus causing him to pass out cold. However, God has built a third capability that prevents this from occurring. The brain has a sponge-like material just behind the brain that has gradually been absorbing blood all the time the giraffe has been drinking. When the giraffe suddenly raises his head, that blood very slowly drains out of the brain, thus keeping the giraffe from passing out, while the spigots open up and the blood begins to flow naturally.
Three very complicated, but cooperating capabilities had to come together at once in the giraffe.
The Giraffe also by itself utterly disproves Evolution.


If you take away any of these amazing mechanisms these animals have the animal would die. And dead animals can't evolve! -- This is from Dr. Jobe Martin. I can give pm you the website if anyone's interested.


Darwin himself admitted, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (_The Origin of Species, _ Masterpieces of Science edition, p. 149).

Todays research has proved that there are such complex organs that could not possibly have fomed by slow modifications.

I have many more examples if anyone is interested.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Could you PM me the website? Or just post it on here? I'm in the process of reading Origin of Species with an interesting forward by a religious scholar.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

Sure I'll PM you the website - I would post it here I just don't know if its ok to put it on the forum. If it is, I can post it so everyone can look at it if they want.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry, I hadn't a lot of time when I typed my short (previous) answer so now I give a more profound review about it how I think:



roro said:


> This is a point that I hear quite often. However, it is necessary to understand the definition of a theory. A theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge". Basically, a theory is something that is well-supported and usually accepted as true. The nature of science thrives on skepticism and doubt to create positive change, and the theory of evolution has gone through this. By comparison, creationism is more of a hypothesis- an idea created on observation that has not yet been widely proven, a proposal. For a hypothesis to become a theory, it must be "testable" to be proven true.


Let me disagree with that. When talking about science, I think these theories, even them would be well-supported, are just probabilities. So I believe there have to always be a crumb of belief of "what actually happened" in science too. Like personally I believe the probability of Darwin's natural selection is high since we can see it all the time, also nowadays. But IMO probability of the theory of it what happened in the beginning of the world is lower since all that happened so long ago and we don't have so many tangible evidence about that but it's more theoretical. I've been taught the theory of Big Bang and how they think everything happened but that's how I think. So here I'm with Vida.

So like you can see about my text above there's also that problem about truth. What's actually true? How you can define truth? Is it something that you can prove scientifically? Do you have to concretely experience the thing before it's true or is it enough when there's a theory which seems to consist of congruent facts? Is it enough if you really believe in it? I think that philosophical question defines your attitude towards science, religion and other things. And I bet the essence of the truth is something that we can never agree and find just one, agreeable way :wink:.

Back to my more personal views: I also think you can't equate science and religion in a same class. It's called religion because you just can rely on it, without any tangible evidence. About sience, I'd let my native language Finnish help me here a bit. Finnish word _tiede_ (science) is related to words _tieto_ (knowledge) and _tietää_ (know), just like science tries to find more knowledge and help people to know. Of course we can try to apply the scientifical methods to a religion or religious relying to science but I think we can't maximize the outcome then. Of course this doesn't mean that there would be nothing which causes contradictions in your mind between religion and science or you wouldn't try to create a synthesis about your personal religious/scientific beliefs. I just think we shouldn't try to mix these methods when we officially try to solve out different religious and scientific issues.

Then more about my still more personal views:


snoggle said:


> As far as religion - I've never understood why some people don't see evolution as god's method. They do not have to be separate from one another. The bible says it happened in 7 days - what is a day to god? I don't believe you can take most of the teachings in the bible literally (how many old testament guys lived to be like 500 - really?). Isn't it possible that he has used evolution to create the universe and all that is in it?


Exactly! I wouldn't say it better. If I believe in God I don't personally, and that's just my personal view, take every story in the Bible literally true so these two theories doesn't bother me. Please note: if I don't take everything literally, it doesn't still mean that I wouldn't believe Him as the Creator. (a little note about my personal religious beliefs: At some stage I believe that the God, the Holy Trinity who has been told in the Bible, is true and here. At some stage I still don't believe. That's not agnosticism since I don't believe that I can't know; I just believe and don't, it's really difficult to explain verbally but is something that you just know intuitively).

So personally, there's still no contradiction between science and religion to me.

So in the end, I hope there's nothing offensive in the text I wrote above but if somebody of you feels so, I really don't mean to offend anyone and hope you forgive me. These are just me very personal believes and views. I also hope you caught something about it, I admit my thoughts were a bit tangled and I had to try to sort them a bit out and finally complete some of my views afterwards. Then still put it all out in foreign language :lol:.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Equus girl - I would think it'd be fine to post it on here. I'm sure some of the others would like to see it too. If it's not, I'm sure the mods will remove it.  Thanks!


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok - here is the website I got the two examples from. 

INCREDIBLE CREATURES THAT DEFY EVOLUTION

And here is another one that has more examples and a link to the video.

Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution


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## CrazyH0rse (Jul 14, 2009)

Equus_girl said:


> *Giraffe *-- this "lowly" animal also contains three unique, cooperating capabilities.
> Because the neck of the Giraffe extends so high into the air, the heart must contain an extraordinarily strong pump to force the blood from the lower body to the highest reaches of the brain. Thus, the first capability unique to the giraffe is a heart that is also a most powerful pump.
> However, when the giraffe lowers its neck to drink, the blood that is circulating in its neck will suddenly come rushing down by the force of gravity. This sudden rush of blood is so strong, it would quickly cause the giraffe to suffer a brain aneurysm, killing the animal instantly. Therefore, the second capability is that spigots are built into his neck arteries that instantly close down whenever the animal lowers its neck to drink water.
> However, when the giraffe abruptly raises its head after drinking, the blood would flow so rapidly downward through the force of gravity that the animal would suffer a sudden loss of blood to the brain, thus causing him to pass out cold. However, God has built a third capability that prevents this from occurring. The brain has a sponge-like material just behind the brain that has gradually been absorbing blood all the time the giraffe has been drinking. When the giraffe suddenly raises his head, that blood very slowly drains out of the brain, thus keeping the giraffe from passing out, while the spigots open up and the blood begins to flow naturally.
> ...


The example of the giraffe doesn't really satisfy me because almost every mammal has a heart improving the heart to make it stronger is evolution/adaptation imo. The spigots they"developed" also doesn't satisfy me either because when we eat/drink we have a flap that comes down and closes of the wind pipes to prevent food from getting in our lungs. the heart is not a separate organ in a giraffe compared to other hearts its just specialized. As for the beetle I want to look at that.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Personally I believe in Evolution, undecided as to the idea of God in a Christian context. I do believe in a higher power but not sure I believe it in the Christian context so I tend to say I believe in The Powers That Be.
As for the Giraffe that doesn't disprove Evolution if anything it confirms it as a creature evolved that can reach the highest branches on the trees hence it has little to no competition for food. I agree with CrazyH0rse on the matter of spigots.
I'm not going to argue with any over this as it is my belief and they are yours but I would hope that people keep an open mind about things rather than say because they believe in this obviously everything else is wrong.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Do I believe in evolution? Yes, although there are holes in the theory and the fossil record is remarkably incomplete. There is quite a bit of DNA, chemical (just about the same thing anyways), fossil, and developmental evidence to show that evolution is a reality. Of course, science being science it isn't going to call something a fact until it's completely proven. People who haven't studied all the information usually don't believe in it. Not surprising at all if you look at the history of humans and their collective willingness to believe in science. Even after it's been proven like the existence of microorganisms, earth revolving around the sun, earth being round, etc, etc.
> 
> Do I believe in God? 100% My own personal belief is that there is a "god" (or whatever you want to call the higher power). I can't explain what god is. My puny human mind isn't capable :lol:. I think that god has used and continues to use evolution, nature, and science to explain and direct. Just another tool in the toolbox. Or something like that anyways, I haven't actually articulated this idea before although I've been thinking about it for years.
> 
> It never fails to amuse me that people still fall for the same old fight. Religion vs Science. Personally, for me and many of the top scientists (many of which are very religious/spiritual), there isn't a fight. Why are people so afraid to actually learn the opposing veiwpoint?


I second this. All of it


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

Yes, I too find those two examples somewhat unsatisfying as far as evidence goes. In fact I tend to see them both as evidence of the contrary.

Special implements such as the ones you mentioned are commonplace throughout the natural world. I tend to think the giraffe has come to be in it's current state through a variety of environmental factors which all must be taken into account when considering the probable evolution of any creature. And through this process, it has since gradually developed these specialised safety devices to suit it's physiological needs, as all living things have. Similar to how we are prevented from aspirating liquid when we drink, as one example that has already been mentioned. The beetle could come about the same way, through a series of small changes reaped through adaptation across a great span of time. 



Anyway. I believe in evolution, always have always will. I do think it's possible however to believe in both. I used to have a friend who poopoo'd the fossil record and liked to debate me when I talked about the possibility of life on other planets. Well, my response to her was..."Ok, so if God created life here, who's to say he didn't create it elsewhere?" I guess what 

I am trying to say is...there are lots of possibilities. I'm not discounting the idea of divine design. But...I do wish people would give more credit to the remarkable power that is evident, inherent and constantly working all around us in the natural world.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

There is another website by a man who has done some amazing scientific research. His name is Robert Gentry. He even has one of his books online - it is one this website.

Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - Earth Science Associates


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

this is my belief. not sure if anyone stated it as i haven't read everyones replies only a few. but i believe in both. i believe we were created... just not like we are now. i believe we were created as a lesser humanoid. and evolved from there. because if you all remember "lucy" that type one humanoid creature thing scientists found and if you remember the tree of knowledge. i believe thats all mixed and intertwined (sorry if i get slightly biblical but it's in my explanation) the originals ate from the tree of knowledge and of course evolution is a fact you can see it all around us. it's definatly not a theory the theory is whether we evolved and i believe we have. just not from monkeys. maybe from lesser beings. so i am straddling the fence!!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Why does it have to be one or the other?

I think that creationism and evolution dovetail very nicely, as long as you leave out the hysteria and hatred and look at things logically.

I'm a Christian so of course believe in God. I also believe that He created the heavens, the earth, and the universe. But having created them, He left them to their own devices, tweaking here and there to get the results He desired. Remember, only He has an idea what the ultimate goal is, not us.

There are literally _billions_ of galaxies in the universe, so it seems to me that He also put other life out there somewhere. We don't know where it is or what form it's going to take, but I believe it's there. 

Diehard religious folks talk about the universe and earth being created in 6 days, but how long were those 'days'? Depending on where you are in the universe, a day can be a very long time indeed. 

It's also been proven that our Earth has had different lengths of days since its inception. Our current time of 24 hours isn't even exact, since we gain an extra day every 4 years.

The universe is a vast and violent place. There's always something being born and something else dying on a massive scale. How can someone look at all of that and NOT think there's a design behind it all?

Even the universe is finite. It was born and it will die, like all of us. I don't see that as tragic or frightening, I see it as the hand of God. 

Doesn't the Bible tell us that the heavens and earth will be swept away, and a new heaven and earth put in its place? So there will always be a constant state of birth and death, even for the universe.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> I believe some things are created perfect, while others are not. Some things have evolved, there is proof.* There has been an evolution of finches (i believe its a finch) that has been documented recently. *
> Tiny organisms, and even large ones have gone unchanged for centuries, while people are constantly evolving from what they were a few hundred years ago (intellect and looks.)


Yes, we have evolved nicely...thanks for noticing:lol:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Equus_girl said:


> Yes, I actually just saw a video on different animals that show that they could not have evolved. Here are a few examples. Many people that believe evolution believe there is no God. I didn't say that everyone that is an evolutionist doesn't believe in God! I'm just saying that I believe there must have been a creator.
> 
> *Bombardier Beetle* -- This lowly creature defends itself in a very interesting manner; its body has two sacks of chemicals that explode when added together, but are benign when kept separately. Thus, the first capability is that this beetle has two separate sacks that keep the chemicals separate until the beetle needs the chemical to protect itself.
> The second capability is that the beetle has an asbestos type lining in his "firebox" in which the chemicals are added. This "firebox" lining keeps the chemical explosion from destroying the body of the beetle when it explodes outward.
> ...


People will believe what they want, and it does not bother me (too much).


Speedracer, very articulate post that follows my beliefs, as well. Thank you.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Equus_girl said:


> *Bombardier Beetle* -- This lowly creature defends itself in a very interesting manner; its body has two sacks of chemicals that explode when added together, but are benign when kept separately. Thus, the first capability is that this beetle has two separate sacks that keep the chemicals separate until the beetle needs the chemical to protect itself.
> The second capability is that the beetle has an asbestos type lining in his "firebox" in which the chemicals are added. This "firebox" lining keeps the chemical explosion from destroying the body of the beetle when it explodes outward.
> However, a third capability is needed to keep the explosion that occurs right outside the body of the beetle from blowing the beetle away when the stream of explosive chemical erupts out of the body. If the stream were continuous, the beetle would be blown away from the chemical coming out its body; however, the beetle pulsates his stream in tiny, continuous droplet pulsation. Thus, the stream of explosive material is not continuous, so the beetle is not killed by his own protective mechanism!
> Three very complicated, but cooperating capabilities had to come together at once in this beetle.
> ...


Actually, in my very humble opinion, I think these two examples PROVE evolution. While each of these two species' ancestors were evolving, the ones without these protective safeguards died off before they were able to reproduce. For example, the beetles whose chemicals weren't able to be kept completely separate died off, thus being unable to reproduce. The beetles with the superior body forms who were able to keep the chemicals separate were able to reproduce, and the offspring thus went on to reproduce as well. Survival of the fittest in all its glory. Same with the spray system - the superior beings lived and reproduced; the inferior beings ("inferior" being used in a scientific manner) died off. 
This did not happen over the span of one or two lifetimes - this happened over hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. Evolution is, of itself, spectacularly slow for most species. However, you can see the proof of evolution in our everyday world - in bacteria. Bacteria are constantly evolving to their surroundings - which is why I try to avoid antibacterial soaps; these soaps kill off 99.9% of germs.. that's great... but the 0.1% who are resistant to this antibacterial soap are superior to those who are killed, and they go on to reproduce and present us with another strain of bacteria that cannot be killed by our soaps.
One very common, easy-to-grasp example is with rabbits in changing climates. It has become a desirable trait for rabbits to change coat colors with the seasons; in the summer, their coat is brown so they blend in with the brown undergrowth of their surroundings. In winter, when things were predominantly white, a brown coat would be a death sentence (and was, for those rabbits who did not change color). So a genetic mutation popped up where some rabbits grew a white coat with the change of the season. These rabbits were less likely to be killed off because they blended in with their surroundings, so they were more likely to reproduce, and pass on their superior gene to their offspring. 


Now, back to the OP...
I believe in both. Kind of. I believe there is proof beyond argument that evolution exists - we have fossil records that show us this spectacular event. But I also want to believe in a "higher power," as I am a Christian (just not in your typical sense.) 
So... in the end? I think that a God "pushed the first domino" so to speak, and hasn't interfered since. 



ETA - Allison Finch, you posted while I was typing my long-winded response haha - you explained things like I would have liked to, thank you!
Humans are evolving as well, like you said. Humans are developing a smaller incisor as the need to tear tough meat becomes less and less necessary. There are a few other examples that elude me at the moment.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks, Allison. Who said those of us who believe in God are all nutcases? There are some of us who have minds of our own and use them! :wink:

Equus_girl, the whole idea of animals evolving over millions of years is being reconsidered because of some recent discoveries. There are some animals that evolve in just one generation, depending on their environment and the threats to themselves and their young.

I'm sure some creatures did indeed take thousands or even millions of generations to evolve, but scientists are having to rethink this theory in the light of the above evidence. They never expected to find something like this, so it has the scientific community in an uproar.

Like the String theory, or the theory of parallel universes, scientists can and will change their ideas to reflect new findings. The only thing constant about science is that it's constantly changing how we view the universe and own world.

I'm a science nerd and watch NatGeo and the Science Channel constantly, so I'm always up on the latest theories.

Citing examples like the giraffe and bombardier beetle don't discount evolution at all. In fact, it points to a rather swift evolution due to specific needs. Why is evolution such a dirty word to some people? It doesn't discount God in any way.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Peppered moth evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is another example I'd like to add.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Bears and dogs are good examples as well since these two very different species share a common ancestor but evolution took them down a different path. I believe that there is a higher power and like other have said it set everything off but then let nature take over.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

This is a really interesting thread. It's good to see that people can be civil about this kind of thing.  I have what most people call a strange belief. It is actually a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on how evolution and creationism can actually compliment one another. 

I believe that God created everything in the beggining, but it was not in the same form as it is now because of the time in there. Although the Bible tells us He created the Earth in 7 days, God is omnipotent. Therefore, 7 days to him could be many thousands or millions of years. The Church teaches that you can believe in evolution, and that when God finally gave humans the things that truly make us human he also gave us souls. My sunday school teacher through high school was a Catholic scientist, so we talked about this type of thing all the time.  After confirmation our classes became places to debate and learn more about Catholicism. It was definitely interesting. 

My question to people who say no to evolution 100% is this. Is it any less of a miracle that God chose to steer evolution from tiny slimy things to humans? We have seen evolution everywhere, and I feel that God has his hand in all of it.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

Well, everyone will believe what they want, but I totally believe in creationism. There is a website that is really fascinating and shows how the earth could not have been formed over millions of years like so many say.

Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - Earth Science Associates


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Equus you're right; everyone's entitled to their own beliefs.

Unfortunately, the website you linked has only postulations and rhetoric, no real scientific data. I'd like to see where these publications were posted, other than sites that support their theories for creationism without evolution.

Scientists do not dismiss data out of hand, nor is there some 'conspiracy' to disprove creationism. They're _always_ open to new ideas, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand how scientists think. Evolution may only be a theory, but so is creationism. 

If you want to believe that God did everything in 6 24-hour Earth days (not 7; He rested on the 7th day), that's your privilege. But_ please_ don't give us links to websites where they rant about how their 'proof' is being kept secret because the scientific communities are heathens who don't believe in God. 

That's the kind of fanaticism I've worked all my life against, because it makes those of us who love God look like ignorant, closed-minded fools.

Keeping an open mind doesn't make me believe in God any less. In fact, it's helped me to see His handiwork in everything, thus strengthening my beliefs.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

Actually, this man Robert Gentry does use scientific data to support his claims. He proves what he is saying by science. But anyways, I'm certainly not going to argue on this. Everyone has to be convinced in their own minds what is right - and like you said to keep an open mind. God will lead us into all truth if we let him.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

So how is the fossil records explained by them? Just curious, not trying to start a fight but I had a huge dinosaur craze when I was younger so I know there are fossil records that are millions of years old e.g T-Rex, Stegosaurus etc and my favourite personal dinosaur Big Al who is an Allosaurus that they did a feature on by the same people who did Walking with Dinosaurs and they went through how he could have got all these injuries he had. A clusmier dino than me.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Lis, you made me giggle.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Good my work here is done.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't believe in either theory - although there does seem to be a case for both to co-exist. Yes there is evidence of life evolving from something, but surely not every creature on the planet can have possibly evolved from the one source?

I accept the fact that there are mutations in DNA that cause changes to species, but I don't believe in natural selection - it doesn't make any sense to me ... one example I've cited is [I think they'd called] fiddler crabs - they have one huge claw and one normal claw, supposedly they evolved this huge claw to allow them to crack open the shells of the lobsters that they eat. But then the lobster apparently evolved the shell to avoid being eaten by the crab ... both of which took tens of thousands of years to happen. Shouldn't either the crabs died of starvation, or the lobsters all been eaten in the meantime...?

I prefer to think that a mutation occurred where a crab was born with a big claw, he accidentally discovered he could crack open the shell of a lobster and nom. So he thrived on his diet, and passed his mutated DNA on to his offspring who thrived on the lobsters too.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> I prefer to think that a mutation occurred where a crab was born with a big claw, he accidentally discovered he could crack open the shell of a lobster and nom. So he thrived on his diet, and passed his mutated DNA on to his offspring who thrived on the lobsters too.


That is the basic idea of natural selection. An organism was born with a slight genetic mutation and was able to thrive because of it, and then passed on the mutation to its offspring.


To those who say just wait until god leads you to truth- am I allowed to say just wait until logic and scientific education leads you to truth? Or would that be rude? If a religious person is allowed to say "I hold my opinion and later you will hold it too" then I will do the same. Anyways, just to clarify things again to the general population: creationism is _not_ a theory in the sense that evolution is, please take note of this.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Just wanted to note, that speciation and natural selection/survival of the fittest can happen over very short periods of time. Prime example would be the peppered moths that JDI posted.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You're right in one sense roro, because with creationism you need to start with an already formed set of beliefs.

It's still a _theory_ in the sense that it's neither been proved nor disproved, but how does one disprove faith? One doesn't _have_ to believe, but that's not disproving, that's just disbelief.

As I said earlier, my believing in God does not keep me from believing in evolution. I think the two go hand in hand, and I always look forward to the next discovery down the line.

Creationism is based on faith, not science. Evolutionism is based on scientific theory and fossil records. That doesn't mean the two can't coexist.

Some of the things the scientists took as gospel (heh) 150 years ago have been disproved by more recent developments. So they modify the theories to take the new information into account.

The origins of the universe are still hotly debated and although there are different theories, none of them can yet be proven. Which is why they're still called _theories_.

Why _can't_ faith and science dovetail? Why does it have to be one or the other? 

I'm quite happy with my own theories on God and how everything fits together, but you're entitled to make up your own mind. In fact, I encourage people to do just that. However, you can't completely embrace one and dismiss the other, without giving each a fair shake. It's scientifically and logically unsound to do less than weigh each equally. 

Consider all data, and come to your own conclusions. That's what I've always done, and I'm at peace with my faith _and_ the fossil record.


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## strawboss (Apr 29, 2009)

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein

i just love to look up Albert's quotes. they mean so much to those who think he was connected to a higher power.
i truly believe that a person can't ride through the countryside and not believe it was created and held together by some greater force than we can understand.
just my opinion


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> You're right in one sense roro, because with creationism you need to start with an already formed set of beliefs.
> 
> It's still a _theory_ in the sense that it's neither been proved nor disproved, but how does one disprove faith? One doesn't _have_ to believe, but that's not disproving, that's just disbelief.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> You're right in one sense roro, because with creationism you need to start with an already formed set of beliefs.
> 
> It's still a _theory_ in the sense that it's neither been proved nor disproved, but how does one disprove faith? One doesn't _have_ to believe, but that's not disproving, that's just disbelief.
> 
> ...


i agree with you, lol but personally, i dont really care how the world was created, its here no. i dont really care when it will end, its here now. 

I have prayed to god for quite a few things... when my hrose was having bad colic, and stuff like that. when im scared i will pray, and, miracles have happened. But on the other hand, i have seen miracles be prayed for, and then not happen. Science gives us answers, and when science fails we can turn to god.  i am quite content with beleiving in both.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

snoggle said:


> I also never understood the need to fail a class or even a test because you don't agree with what you are being taught - believe me I didn't agree with everything when I was in college or grad school - but you suck it up, learn from the experience, and finish. Are people afraid that their faith is so weak that learning something different would ruin it for them? I think challenging one's faith with other viewpoints only strengthens one's argument and deepens faith.


I don't get how you don't understand... =/ It makes sense to me at least. When facts are being thrown at you and you're being told you HAVE to learn and that they are 100% true and that what you believe IS wrong, no matter what. People will be bold, and stay true to their faith, and say 'hey, my faith is stronger than this class, I'd rather fail(and in a way, succeed, by standing true to what I believe) than slap my beliefs in the face, and learn what I know isn't true, and act like it is to pass.' To me it's not a matter of being afraid that their faith is so weak that they have to stand up for it. It's not a matter of just 'knowing the material to pass.' It's a matter of not learning what is false, and being a waste of time so to speak. It's a matter of, not allowing the false facts, so to speak, be treated as real, in order to pass. I'd rather have the teacher(s) talk about me as a person who was stubborn and knew what she believed, even though she didn't do well in the class as a result, than known by them as a known Christian who ignored her beliefs and just shoved it all away to pass and get an excellent grade.

EDIT: And yes, it is good to challenge your faith and get into MEANINGFUL discussions with people of other beliefs and faiths. But when it's one sided, and one or the other is being told 'NO, you are wrong, admit it and get over it.' That's when it gets a little over the line, and it starts to make you question whether its being productive or discouraging.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I don't get how you don't understand... =/ It makes sense to me at least. When facts are being thrown at you and you're being told you HAVE to learn and that they are 100% true and that what you believe IS wrong, no matter what. People will be bold, and stay true to their faith, and say 'hey, my faith is stronger than this class, I'd rather fail(and in a way, succeed, by standing true to what I believe) than slap my beliefs in the face, and learn what I know isn't true, and act like it is to pass.' To me it's not a matter of being afraid that their faith is so weak that they have to stand up for it. It's not a matter of just 'knowing the material to pass.' It's a matter of not learning what is false, and being a waste of time so to speak. It's a matter of, not allowing the false facts, so to speak, be treated as real, in order to pass. I'd rather have the teacher(s) talk about me as a person who was stubborn and knew what she believed, even though she didn't do well in the class as a result, than known by them as a known Christian who ignored her beliefs and just shoved it all away to pass and get an excellent grade.
> 
> EDIT: And yes, it is good to challenge your faith and get into MEANINGFUL discussions with people of other beliefs and faiths. But when it's one sided, and one or the other is being told 'NO, you are wrong, admit it and get over it.' That's when it gets a little over the line, and it starts to make you question whether its being productive or destructive.


*edited*


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## strawboss (Apr 29, 2009)

i would like to add;
people who understand genetics know that genes sometimes mutate.
means the next generations forward will be somewhat different from those in the past, at least is one strain of that species.
evolution theorist stand on the premise that chaos moved forward through random selection and everything in the universe happened by accident until we got to where we are today. so why has there been no great evolving in recorded history. mutant genes aside.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Speedracer-
I disagree with the point that someone can truly "believe" in science and truly believe in religion at the same time. It is obviously possible to half believe in both, but these are two things that tend to conflict each other. Right now, scientists are finding ways to explain why we believe in god- cognitive mechanisms such as decoupling (the ability to have a conversation with another person in your head). Most people are atheists about most gods; I am assuming that the majority of people posting on this thread do not believe in Thor, Zeus, or Ra. This is largely because of the way these gods are presented- Thor is in a history text book, "God" is in your head. Parents raising their children in a religious home also make a huge impression. Indeed, there is a lot of science that conflicts with religion: psychology, biology etc. In the Royal Society (basically the British science academy), only 3.3% of all members believe in a god. There are other studies that show similar results, including ones which show that higher IQ, higher education, and especially higher science education, lead to a person becoming less religious. At the root of the matter, it is much easier for a person to initially believe that something was simply designed by a higher being than to wrap one's mind around the idea of slight genetic mutations occurring over millions of years and the complex biochemical processes that occur. So no, I don't think that science and religion can peacefully coexist.

To end on a lighter note, I believe the words of Douglas Adams sums up the idea of science and spirituality together: _"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"_


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I think the idea out forward by Terry Pratchett in Small Gods is an excellant example of both religion and evolution: Gods are shaped by us, they change with our beliefs. Once it seemed like the Norse religion would stand forever, the same with the Greeks, etc. Even recently Christianity nearly lost out to another religion, the name of which has escaped me but I will find out. We did it in our Classical History lessons. Modern Christianity has taken influences from other religions as well and has evolved into the religion we know today because of the main enforcer of Christianity; the Romans. The Romans assimilated other religions into their own and when the Roman Emperor Constantine converted the Romans he used the festivals already in place so the Romans would accept this new religion. There is religion and evolution hand in hand.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

roro said:


> I disagree with the point that someone can truly "believe" in science and truly believe in religion at the same time. It is obviously possible to half believe in both, but these are two things that tend to conflict each other.


Yes these things do tend to conflict with each other, but I'm more inclined to see that as a human problem than proof that you can't believe in both. I'm a prime example. I have a college degree in Animal Science (Pre-Vet) and have taken MANY high level science classes. Genetics, Organic Chem, Physics, Reproductive Health & Disease, Microbiology, Biochemistry, etc. I read scienctific literature and understand what I'm reading quite well. But I believe in God 100%. Of course, I am NOT a religous person, so maybe I don't really count towards disproving your idea? I know a lot of vets, graduate students, PhDs, professors, doctors, and other people who are extremely well educated AND believe in God and/or are very religous. In my experience it's more common then you think.

*edit - I'm not trying to be snippy  Sorry if it comes off like that.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I don't get how you don't understand... =/ It makes sense to me at least. When facts are being thrown at you and you're being told you HAVE to learn and that they are 100% true and that what you believe IS wrong, no matter what. People will be bold, and stay true to their faith, and say 'hey, my faith is stronger than this class, I'd rather fail(and in a way, succeed, by standing true to what I believe) than slap my beliefs in the face, and learn what I know isn't true, and act like it is to pass.' To me it's not a matter of being afraid that their faith is so weak that they have to stand up for it. It's not a matter of just 'knowing the material to pass.' It's a matter of not learning what is false, and being a waste of time so to speak. It's a matter of, not allowing the false facts, so to speak, be treated as real, in order to pass. I'd rather have the teacher(s) talk about me as a person who was stubborn and knew what she believed, even though she didn't do well in the class as a result, than known by them as a known Christian who ignored her beliefs and just shoved it all away to pass and get an excellent grade.
> 
> EDIT: And yes, it is good to challenge your faith and get into MEANINGFUL discussions with people of other beliefs and faiths. *But when it's one sided, and one or the other is being told 'NO, you are wrong, admit it and get over it.' That's when it gets a little over the line, and it starts to make you question whether its being productive or discouraging*.


 
I think anyone who is so closed minded they can't open it to the possibilities of *either* creationism *or* evolution *or both*, needs to either shut up and listen or go away. I'm sorry you have had to deal with people like that. 
The human mind is made to evolve in thought and action. Otherwise we would still be dressed in animal skins and grunting at each other.


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## Ariat164 (Nov 27, 2009)

i dont believe in evolution i am a creationist


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Yes these things do tend to conflict with each other, but I'm more inclined to see that as a human problem than proof that you can't believe in both. I'm a prime example. I have a college degree in Animal Science (Pre-Vet) and have taken MANY high level science classes. Genetics, Organic Chem, Physics, Reproductive Health & Disease, Microbiology, Biochemistry, etc. I read scienctific literature and understand what I'm reading quite well. But I believe in God 100%. Of course, I am NOT a religous person, so maybe I don't really count towards disproving your idea? I know a lot of vets, graduate students, PhDs, professors, doctors, and other people who are extremely well educated AND believe in God and/or are very religous. In my experience it's more common then you think.
> 
> *edit - I'm not trying to be snippy  Sorry if it comes off like that.


No, not snippy-I am used to a hostile response from theists and deists. The statistic that I provided (hopefully you read everything I wrote instead of just reading the top bit) was about whether or not the members of the Royal Society believed in any sort of god at all, religious or not. I know there are scientists who do hold religious beliefs, but again that goes against the statistical majority; especially knowing the fact that many of the current religious scientists were often born in religious homes and that can leave a permanent mark. Human problem? In my opinion religion and the idea of a god is a human problem,simply a side effect of our complex cognitive mechanisms. A God provides comfort for people because they design the idea of a god in their heads to fit their needs and give them hope. However, that is not an excuse to believe in such a thing. Science teaches us not to think of anything as true until it can be proven. Why would this not be applied to god? There is no hard evidence for its existence (saying he talked to me in my head does not count, nor does the bible says so count), so therefore there is no reason to and belief in something that has not been proven should be discouraged. How is refusing to believe in something that is not proven a human problem, and for that matter, how is believing in something with no evidence _not_ a human problem?

When an atheist and a spiritual/religious person are asked what it would take to make them change, they often give very different answers. An atheist is inclined to say something along the lines of "reasonable evidence that would lead me to believe that there is a god" while a religious person is more inclined to say "nothing can change my belief in god because I know he is there, regardless of science (or that he cannot be disproven/evidence of his nonexistence is required, but this is another matter on its own-it is impossible to disprove something that does not exist)". This is a very clear conflict between logical thinking and emotional/spiritual thinking, so again another reason why I can come to the conclusion that religion and science cannot ultimately coexist peacefully.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I definitely read your whole post. Your viewpoint is interesting, but I don't agree with it. We'll just have to agree to disagree. In my life my spirituality and scientific mind get along just great. In my opinion a hallmark of scientific minds is their ability to realize that there are many things that haven't been explained (yet) by science and their interest in exploring those ideas. Unfortunately I do have to admit that in my experience religous people aren't (generally) as open minded about the issue.

How many other statistics are out there looking at this issue? I'm sure there are plenty more, probably opposing ones too. As my statistics professor pointed out time and time again, statistics can be skewed to prove anything you want it to. It's always important to look at who is doing the research, who is paying for it, and how they analyzed it. Anyways, that's not really the point. 

" How is refusing to believe in something that is not proven a human problem, and for that matter, how is believing in something with no evidence _not_ a human problem?"

This isn't quite how I meant my statement. I think it's a human problem that people can't seem to stop forcing their ideas down other's throats. That's the only reason (in my opinion) why there is such a problem with religion and science co-existing. Early and current religous leaders were fearful of losing their power and demonized scientists. Early and current scientists have the tendency to "dumb down" religion, having the attitude that it's just for the "stupid, unenlightened masses." Those attitudes prevail today and in this very thread. That's where I see the problem. Do I believe in God? I've made that clear, but I don't see any need to shove my belief onto anyone else. My boyfriend doesn't believe in God and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. He also has absolutely no interest in any of my scientific learning (he practically falls asleep when I start talking about some new development). Is he more scientific or smarter than I am? Or am I smarter than he is? Who really cares, we coexist very well even with our opposing spiritual beliefs and scientific education. 

Sorry if this is garbled and doesn't quite make sense. I'm typing fast as said boyfriend is waiting for me. Have a good night!


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> I think anyone who is so closed minded they can't open it to the possibilities of *either* creationism *or* evolution *or both*, needs to either shut up and listen or go away. I'm sorry you have had to deal with people like that.
> The human mind is made to evolve in thought and action. Otherwise we would still be dressed in animal skins and grunting at each other.


I agree wholeheartedly. Personally, I try to see and understand the viewpoints of others, and try to discuss such things in a friendly matter. It's pointless to try and debate what is true and what isn't when those you are trying to discuss it with aren't allowing themselves to openly listen. If you really think about it, that's how ideas and thoughts form, if you hear something, and chew on it for a while, you'll start to figure out what you do agree with and what you don't and possibly come up with other ideas for what could've happened, or what is, etc.
Along those lines, I will say that although I am Christian, I do not agree with everything I have been taught in the past 19 years of my life in the Christian faith. I have figured out what I disagree with and what I think is to be correct. And as I learn more, I will continue to create a stronger base for what I think to be true. It's not an all or nothing situation when it comes to the 'what do you believe' debate, or stating that everyone else is wrong in what they believe, and only one person is right.
Everyone can believe what they want to believe, and one day, we'll ALL find out what is true. =)


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## Thatgirlsacowboy (Aug 17, 2009)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I still never found out if anyone else in the class besides those 6, including myself who stood up for our faith(we all almost failed because we did stand firm in what we believed) just lied about their faith, or just were ignorant and acted as if it didn't bother them just to get a perfect grade.


 
Or maybe they needed the credits for that class to graduate and decided that they could do the work without agreeing with it? I've had to do the same thing. It's hard, but sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and do it anyways. It doesn't mean you agree with it. 

I don't believe in evolution. I believe in creation and adaptation. I'm not going to shove my beliefs down other peoples throats though. A have tons of friends and we all believe different things. Doesn't bother me at all what you believe as long as you respect me as much as I respect you.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Thatgirlsacowboy said:


> Or maybe they needed the credits for that class to graduate and decided that they could do the work without agreeing with it? I've had to do the same thing. It's hard, but sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and do it anyways. It doesn't mean you agree with it.
> 
> I don't believe in evolution. I believe in creation and adaptation. I'm not going to shove my beliefs down other peoples throats though. A have tons of friends and we all believe different things. Doesn't bother me at all what you believe as long as you respect me as much as I respect you.


We were all freshmen. And at the time, in that district, yes, we were required to take the class, however, we did everything except the stuff pertaining to Evolution, which was a minor unit of two weeks.
No, because in our class, and esp. with the people in the class, it was treated as truth, and us 6 didn't like it one bit, so we just didn't partake in it. Sure, we did all the genetics stuff, and the stuff pertaining to how one animal leads to another, for the sole fact that genetics proves it to be true. Besides that, with the whole 'this is the TRUE way the world was formed and all animals came to be' talk, we got permission to not have to partake. We didn't fail, no one failed, we just didn't get as 'high' a grade as others because we only did what we felt comfortable with at the time. Looking back on it, I and the others could have approached the situation differently, but I still think that those who disagree with something, shouldn't have to, or be forced to do such.
Maybe I've explained myself a little better now? =)


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

Just so you know my blood is boiling because of everything that has been said my Father, my Creater, my Savior, my GOD so if I sound rude please excuse me(although do know that I believe with all my heart what I am writing, I might just say it nicer at other times). BUT, my heart also cries out to all of you who do not believe the truth and will one day die because of it whereas I will be blessed with eternal life through Jesus. Okay, getting to the OP, I believe one thing, I have always beleived it and always will beleive it. THat beleif is....

*"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1. *

Period. That is clearlystated as the first verse of the bible and I will not open my mind to any other belief whatsoever. Also, there is a differince between evolution and Evolution. The word "evolve" simply means to undergo change. when we write "evolution" with a small "e" it simply means that something has experienced a slow or gradual change. When people speak of Evolution with a capital "E" it means something far different. That Evolution is the theory that life began as a chance combination of non-living chemicals, and that all living things today deceloped from one-celled creatures, which over millions of years gradually changed into the fish, reptiles, birds and mammals in todays world. We can all agreee that "evolution" with a small"e" happens but evolution(with a small "e") is NOT proof for Evolution (with a cap. "E")!!! And for those of ou who believe in both, that is not possible. You eighter believe that the Theory of Evolution is right, or it is wrong. We must all keep in mind that a THEORY is not a proven FACT. It is not the FACT of Evolution, but simply the THEORY of, therefore it could be wrongand I believe it is. For those of you who do not believe me, yes I can back up my beliefs. For instance, It would have taken millions upon millions of years for the world to have evolved into what is is today correct? Well, wouldn't the oceans have filled with salt by then?? Or, how come we are not still evolving into more complex creatures?? Besides, If I am wrong, what do i have to lose. But if your wrong, you have everything to lose. If you want to know more, pleae do not be afraid to pm me, but even though I will point things out to you I will not go into a full scale debate on why the theory of Evolution is wrong as I have more important things to do than sit here and waste my time talking to someone who refuses to listen. I also encouage EVERYONE, regardless of there belefs, to check out It Couldn't Just Happen By Lawrence O. Richards as it has some amazing facts about Gods wrld in it. And if you choose not to listen to what I am saying, then have fun burning in the palace of the devil while I am walking on streets of gold, living in a mansion, and most importantly worshiping the Lord thy God.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Triplecrowngirl- I will not formally conflict you because I feel that things would get much too heated since you already appear very annoyed. However, the reason I typed "theory of evolution" is because that is the correct term for it, as the definition of a theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge". I did not refer to creationism as a theory because it is not a theory by definition. I didn't capitalize the E in evolution because that would not change the meaning of the word, perhaps it was a small grammatical slip-up on my part. I recognize that you are hurt by what you have read here, but that is not an excuse to blatantly claim that I will suffer greatly for what I find to be the truth. Everyone will die eventually, not just atheists; and certainly not because of the beliefs they hold, they will die because that is what happens to organisms at the end of their lives.


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## draykesmom (Dec 29, 2009)

I believe God made the world as described in Genisis. I believe the Bible to be true in every sense and that God is the Same yesterday today and forever. There is no doubt we all came from a great creator, or else we would still be seeing evelution today.. last I knew people havent turned into anything else and if evelution was the key wouldnt we have new species of people? or other animals for that matter? why would it all of a sudden stop evolving?


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Ah well each to their own. Not going to disrespect your beliefs so long as you don't disrespect mine thank you very much. I was raised a Christian, went to Christian schools and I personally am not a Christian also I don't think it helped that I had my life made a living hell by kids who were supposed to be Christians. I admire your faith but it's not mine it's yours. No one here has tried to force their theory down another's throat so don't you be the first one. You can believe in both or at least people can but you can't so fair enough. I understand you may be offended but you can't say by the same token that everything else is wrong when nothing has been proven. Everything is still being validated. 

Although always been curious about Hell so there you go although again I believe in reincarnation into other lifeforms.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Does anyone stop and try to think outside the box? Maybe both are ingredients to the recepie of life here on earth - but misinterpreted?

Take the Bible - I do not doubt that what those who lived in Anient Bible Days saw what they believe they saw, and heard what they heard. What I believe is that they misinterpreted their experiences as being from a "God" in the heavens, when what their experiences could of really been, were intelligent life from beyond this earth?

To them, "Chariots of fire" was interpreted as "Godly" or "Angelic" with their mindsets of their day, whereas today, in our scientific mindsets - what it really could of been was a craft manned by intelligent life forms?

Could the staff that Moses held, used to part the Great Sea's for his people to cross - interpreted as "Godly" when in reality, it could of been Technology from these Intelligent Life Forms?

Actions and Words are easliy misinterpreted. Stories are easily stretched. 

It could be a possibillity, that we were not onlycreated, but also evolved - not by what many would like to comfortably believe as being from "God" - but perhaps, by and from these Intelligent Life Forms from beyond our realm of existance here on earth? 

Maybe we weren't made in "His" image - but from the Image of these Intelligent Beings? 

I don't doubt what people witnessed and I don't doubt what people heard back in ancient bible days - but what I do doubt, is their accuracy as to who they believed these experiences came from. I do not doubt that Christ walked this earth, but I do doubt his origins. I believe he had powers and capeabillities, but I do not think they were "godly".


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

draykesmom said:


> last I knew people havent turned into anything else and if evelution was the key wouldnt we have new species of people? or other animals for that matter? why would it all of a sudden stop evolving?


First of all, evolution can be a very slow process. We know this because it took the species we know today millions of years to evolve into what they are now. However, there are clear examples of natural selection (and thus evolution) that have occurred at a very fast rate; such as the example of the Grey Peppered Moths that someone on this thread provided. With humans, things are different. Because of advances in medical science and society in general, people who are sick or weak can live on and have children and pass on their genes. Therefore, chances are humans are not going to change very much; if anything we will get physically weaker with time as technology is able to provide more and more for us.


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## LolHorse (Dec 28, 2009)

I believe in evolution. I find it very interesting that only 39% of people in America believe in evolution! Oh well..
I also believe in no god or anything, I believe that if there is no concrete detail to a thing then it's not true untill something true and HUGE is found out about something. 
God might be real, (I highly doubt so) but untill then he is not real, but just a belief. The only evidence there is of him is the bible and a few odd and ends. (atleast that I know of)


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> Just so you know my blood is boiling because of everything that has been said my Father, my Creater, my Savior, my GOD so if I sound rude please excuse me(although do know that I believe with all my heart what I am writing, I might just say it nicer at other times). BUT, my heart also cries out to all of you who do not believe the truth and will one day die because of it whereas I will be blessed with eternal life through Jesus. Okay, getting to the OP, I believe one thing, I have always beleived it and always will beleive it. THat beleif is....
> 
> *"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1. *
> 
> Period. That is clearlystated as the first verse of the bible and I will not open my mind to any other belief whatsoever. Also, there is a differince between evolution and Evolution. The word "evolve" simply means to undergo change. when we write "evolution" with a small "e" it simply means that something has experienced a slow or gradual change. When people speak of Evolution with a capital "E" it means something far different. That Evolution is the theory that life began as a chance combination of non-living chemicals, and that all living things today deceloped from one-celled creatures, which over millions of years gradually changed into the fish, reptiles, birds and mammals in todays world. We can all agreee that "evolution" with a small"e" happens but evolution(with a small "e") is NOT proof for Evolution (with a cap. "E")!!! And for those of ou who believe in both, that is not possible. You eighter believe that the Theory of Evolution is right, or it is wrong. We must all keep in mind that a THEORY is not a proven FACT. It is not the FACT of Evolution, but simply the THEORY of, therefore it could be wrongand I believe it is. For those of you who do not believe me, yes I can back up my beliefs. For instance, It would have taken millions upon millions of years for the world to have evolved into what is is today correct? Well, wouldn't the oceans have filled with salt by then?? Or, how come we are not still evolving into more complex creatures?? Besides, If I am wrong, what do i have to lose. But if your wrong, you have everything to lose. If you want to know more, pleae do not be afraid to pm me, but even though I will point things out to you I will not go into a full scale debate on why the theory of Evolution is wrong as I have more important things to do than sit here and waste my time talking to someone who refuses to listen. I also encouage EVERYONE, regardless of there belefs, to check out It Couldn't Just Happen By Lawrence O. Richards as it has some amazing facts about Gods wrld in it. And if you choose not to listen to what I am saying, then have fun burning in the palace of the devil while I am walking on streets of gold, living in a mansion, and most importantly worshiping the Lord thy God.


OK....first off. No one here wants to fight, no one here is looking for a debate, or massive disagreement.
Secondly, take a step back, *please*, look at what you are saying. I do NOT mean to be rude, or mean or anything along those lines whatsoever, BUT, I do need you to realize that what you are saying, and what you have said, is very very very forceful, and out of line. I get that you are infuriated, if you will, about people capitalizing 'evolution.' HOWEVER, it is a title, a name, and a pronoun. If you know what a pronoun is, they are supposed to be capitalized, whether or not someone 'agrees' with it or not. As a Christian, and as most faiths, the word 'God' is capitalized, as are the names of other religions, such as Allah, etc. However, when 'God' is pluralized it becomes 'gods,' and is no longer capitalized because it is no longer personal. See what I'm saying? Trying to pick a battle about a word being capitalized, is not worth your while. Evolution is a name, it is a title, and it IS a pronoun, so by all means, it can and will be capitalized. As is the word 'Christianity;' some people may argue and state that it isn't proven or it isn't real, but it doesn't mean it's uncapitalized. Whether it is a proved fact, or a theory, _it doesn't determine_ whether a word is capitalized or not.
Also, understand that I agree with you, I disagree with the Theory of Evolution as well, however, it doesn't mean that you can shove your beliefs onto others, or say that it is wrong, and you have facts to back it up. I'm sure that anyone who believes whatever it is that they believe, have facts to back theirs up as well. So be careful in what you say, as you may bring on a debate not worth your time. As a Christian myself I have seen how pushy those in the faith can be, and to be honest. The more someone shoves their beliefs down my throat and tells me that I am wrong, and that they can prove why, the less likely I am to listen. Be careful with how you are bold in your faith, sometimes bold will turn into pushy...and you could and will lose a lot of people even thinking about possibly listening to you.
Again, I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful by this whatsoever, just clarifying. =)


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

roro said:


> Triplecrowngirl- I will not formally conflict you because I feel that things would get much too heated since you already appear very annoyed. However, the reason I typed "theory of evolution" is because that is the correct term for it, as the definition of a theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge". I did not refer to creationism as a theory because it is not a theory by definition. I didn't capitalize the E in evolution because that would not change the meaning of the word, perhaps it was a small grammatical slip-up on my part. I recognize that you are hurt by what you have read here, but that is not an excuse to blatantly claim that I will suffer greatly for what I find to be the truth. Everyone will die eventually, not just atheists; and certainly not because of the beliefs they hold, they will die because that is what happens to organisms at the end of their lives.


I appolagize if what I said seemed directed towards you, I assure you it wasn't. I really didn't read what you wrote to well I just voiced my oppinion after seeing the title. I just wanted to point out that it is the THEORY or and the a fact, I didn't know you had already mention it was a theory and I was just pointing out the differences between evolution and Evolution to those who may not have know there was a difference. And I am sure I can a cross as pretty rude, just as I said in my first post, I appolagize and I don't want to lead you to thinking that I am a rude person or that those who believe in God and Jesus a ignorant or rude, I jsut find it hard not to get very angry when my God is being disregarded as the creator of the universe. As to the second part or your respons, yes eveyone will die eventually, but I will have eternal life as promised in John 3:16* (For Sod so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life).* Any one who does not believe that WILL perish, I am not _blatantly claming_ that, I am telling you what He says, hopefully before it's too late. You have the right to believe whatever you want, but I will shoose to beleive that *"He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Him" *(John 14:6). 


btw-Just so you guys know, all of you who selected the theory of evolution as your beleif are on my prayer list. It brings me to tears to think that unless someone manages to bring you to the truth, you guys will never get a mansion of your own, streets of gold to walk on, or be able to kneel before the Father and proclaim him your God. Please pm me if you have a problem with this or you wnat to be able to do these things. Please, think about which is easier to beleive, that there is a God out there who molded you in his hands, gave you your love for horses, sent his son to die for you, and is trying to reach out to you now, so you can be his child. OR that all the right chemicals just happended to come to gether at just the right time, and some how, after millions of years, these chemicals happened to create you. which do you WANT to beleive, that there is a father out there, who loves you unconditionaly, just waiting for his lost child to run back into his arms, or that you just happened to be created by some biology thing that doesn't even know you, much less care about you. Please think, and then send me a pm if you want to return to your loving fathers arms.


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I get that you are infuriated, if you will, about people capitalizing 'evolution.' HOWEVER, it is a title, a name, and a pronoun.


yes, I am sorry if I didn't sound clear. It SHOULD be capitalized when talking about the theory of Evoltuon. I was just trying to cllarify that evolution and Evoltion can have two differint meanings. and sorry, I wsn't trying to be rude or any thing I am just very passionate about telling people the truth before it is too late, whther face to face or through a computer screen


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

oh and I am sorry if I sound pushy, i really don't want to scare anyone off. I deffinatly live by that verse that says "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven." Mathew 10:32-33


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> yes, I am sorry if I didn't sound clear. It SHOULD be capitalized when talking about the theory of Evoltuon. I was just trying to cllarify that evolution and Evoltion can have two differint meanings. and sorry, I wsn't trying to be rude or any thing I am just very passionate about telling people the truth before it is too late, whther face to face or through a computer screen


Aye, but there is where you have it slightly wrong, there is only one definition for Evolution, and the word is capitalized when speaking of the Theory of Evolution, however when using 'evolution' as a broad term, so to speak, it doesn't have to be capitalized. Although, it is a single definition, with many uses. Evolution Definition | Definition of Evolution at Dictionary.com


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> oh and I am sorry if I sound pushy, i really don't want to scare anyone off. I deffinatly live by that verse that says "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven." Mathew 10:32-33


I feel obliged to say this. I know you don't realize it, but me even reading it TRYING to make this sound like you are not being pushy...having a hard time doing so. Again I will say, although I am a Christian, those who speak only with Bible verses, and don't speak for themselves, and what THEY think, do come across as being rather forceful, intimidating, not necessarily pushy though. You can use the Bible as a guide, granted, you are supposed to, but when you speak only of verses and use them as a weapon/defense, and only as a support to what you believe, without being down to earth and being willing to listen to others and what they think and have to say, then people start to think you are two faced.
You can only get people to listen to you, if you are not scarily honest, but down to earth, kind, helpful and willing to listen, and are a good example. Now I really don't want to go into a full on speech here, but, if you are familiar with Bible verses, then you will be familiar with(the book and verse slips my mind right now) the story of how Jesus was in the town center and all the adults were gathering around Him, and shoving the children away, because they didn't understand, and they just wanted to see who was so important. And Jesus, seeing this, says, 'let the children come to me.' And in this gesture, was meaning, no matter whether they understand or believe, I still want them to be welcome. And in this way, also when Jesus is walking the streets, and gets asked to see the sick young girl who was supposedly dead, all the villagers were laughing at him when he told the parents that the girl was sleeping instead of dead...and this goes on for a while, and then she wakes up, and thus has proven that He was right, she was only sleeping. And there are many stories like this, how without using Scripture, and just being a friendly, welcoming person, and demonstrating His love, and care for each other, that you can leave your mark on other people and let them know what is 'real' so to speak. And that is what is asked of us, not to quote Scripture till we're blue in the face, but to be welcoming, and non-judgmental of others.

....hehe...I may have gone on a little longer than I would've liked...oops.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

i am a Jehovah's Witness and i believe in God. i believe that He created all things. look at the book here: *Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?*

i believe that the bible is writen by Jehovah, through man. the book is INSPIRED by God. please next time a Jehovah's Witness Comes to your Door ask them about this book. then read it. We are in over 200 lands and in 387 languages. 

From what i have learned a day to Jehovah is like a thousand elsewhere. 

Ps. 19:1: "The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling."
Ps. 104:24: "How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions."​ 
So when we see a camera, a radio, or a computer, we readily acknowledge that it must have been produced by an intelligent designer. Would it be reasonable, then, to say that far more complex things—the eye, the ear, and the human brain—did not originate with an intelligent Designer?​ 
Scientists have identified over 100 chemical elements. Their atomic structure displays an intricate mathematical interrelationship of the elements. The periodic table points to obvious design. Such amazing design could not possibly be accidental, a product of chance.

When crossing a barren desert, if you came to a beautiful house, well equipped in every way and stocked with food, would you believe that it got there by some chance explosion? No; you would realize that someone with considerable wisdom built it. Well, scientists have not yet found life on any of the planets of our solar system except the earth; available evidence indicates that the others are barren. This planet is, as the book The Earth says, "the wonder of the universe, a unique sphere." (New York, 1963, Arthur Beiser, p. 10) It is at just the right distance from the sun for human life, and it moves at just the right speed to be held in orbit. The atmosphere, of a kind found only around the earth, is made up of just the right proportion of gases to sustain life. Marvelously, light from the sun, carbon dioxide from the air, and water and minerals from fertile soil combine to produce food for earth’s inhabitants. Did it all come about as a result of some uncontrolled explosion in space? Science News admits: "It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random." (August 24 and 31,　1974, p. 124) The Bible’s conclusion is reasonable when it states: "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God."

Genesis chapter 1 says simply that God created each "according to its kind." (Gen. 1:12, 21,　24,　25) In preparation for the global Flood in Noah’s day, God directed that representative members of each "kind" of land animal and flying creature be taken into the ark. (Gen. 7:2, 3,　14) Each "kind" has the genetic potential for great variety. Thus there are reportedly more than 400 different breeds of dogs and upwards of 250 breeds and types of horses. All interfertile varieties of any animal are just one Genesis "kind." Similarly, all varieties of humans—Oriental, African, Caucasian, those as tall as the seven-foot Dinka in the Sudan and as short as the four-foot-four-inch Pygmies—stem from the one original pair, Adam and Eve.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow, Im insulted. Im going to die because I believe in science. 
Please don't take it upon yourself to sentence me to eternal damnation. I liked this thread, don't let it go to the toilet.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Wow, Im insulted. Im going to die because I believe in science.
> Please don't take it upon yourself to sentence me to eternal damnation. I liked this thread, don't let it go to the toilet.


I tried to bring it back around the good side of things... :-(
I sure couldn't have expected this thread to take such an intense turn. :shock:


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yeah you did Iryde. Hopefully it can end up going back on track instead of becoming all hellfire and brimstone.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Yeah you did Iryde. Hopefully it can end up going back on track instead of becoming all hellfire and brimstone.


Wasn't this supposed to be more of a 'what do you think?' kind of thread, rather than a 'here's what I think, believe, and how it should be, end of story' kind of thread anyway? >.<


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

That was the hope I think...


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> It brings me to tears to think that unless someone manages to bring you to the truth, you guys will never get a mansion of your own, streets of gold to walk on, or be able to kneel before the Father and proclaim him your God.


Oh please don't cry for me. None of those things really appeal to me, I think i'll do without. Streets of gold would be mighty slippery when wet - Give me grass anyday :]


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, huh... What if I don't want a mansion? Or streets of gold? Whoever decided that gold was so **** great anyways?

Argh, I'm sorry to be rude, really I am, but frankly TripleCrownGirl the tone of your posts are incredible insulting. If I'm damned for using the brain that god gave me or for seeing the soul in my animals. Then so be it. The bible you speak of has incredibly CRUEL verses throughout it. Do you believe in them? 

The bible was written by man for the times that they lived in. It has been re-written and translated several times over. Scrolls are still being found from the time of Jesus that change our perception of what really happened in those times. 

My version of heaven? The souls I've loved throughout my time are with me. Nothing more, nothing less. I think that the ultra-religous among us need to remember what's really important, which is the love for your fellow man (or woman ) and caring for the creatures of this earth. Not mansions and streets of gold. 

I think Jesus explained that pretty **** well, whether he was the son of God or a carpenter I think we can all do well to live by that belief.

edit for Roro - It may be a ridiculous an illogical hope, this idea I have of heaven. But love is pretty illogical too.  I enjoy reading your posts, you seem to be a very smart and articulate person.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Well, huh... What if I don't want a mansion? Or streets of gold? Whoever decided that gold was so **** great anyways?
> 
> Argh, I'm sorry to be rude, really I am, but frankly TripleCrownGirl the tone of your posts are incredible insulting. If I'm damned for using the brain that god gave me or for seeing the soul in my animals. Then so be it. The bible you speak of has incredibly CRUEL verses throughout it. Do you believe in them?
> 
> ...


No problem, I hope I did not come off as attacking or snobby, I do respect you very much. I simply don't want to miss out on an opportunity to have an intelligent discussion with an intelligent person when I see one.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

please don't tell me that I can't believe in both. I believe in science and god, are you going to beat me for it?

And DONT warn me that I'm going to hell. Ive lived a good life. And if god sends people to hell just because people have a mind of their own and live life themselves without consulting him for EVERYTHING then I think god is a little to self centered and needs to understand that not believing compeletly in things does NOT make them a bad person. What they do in their LIFE makes them bad people. And sorry that I believe in him but my life doesn't revolve around him. If he is how hardcore religious people make him sound then I don't want to go to heaven and meet him. I want to go down to hell and have a good time with the devil. Maybe I will get a tan while I'm down there to.

I believe In both. I'm in the middle about everything.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I voted for Creationism. I believe that everything around me was created by a high power, God. Evolution doesn't appeal to me at all. Why? Because somewhere along the line it will overlap with the theory of Creationism, and as I already stated, I am a follower of God. I know, I know. There is so much "evidence" to try and prove the theory true, but it is just that. A theory. So I don't understand why some of you are baffled by the fact that people like me don't believe in it when it isn't even proven yet. 

I believe when I die I will either go to Heaven or Hell for eternity, as decided by God. And no, I am not going to force the Bible verses down your throat like other members on here, nor am I going to **** you to Hell, because that is not my decision to make, and in my eyes, that is similiar to judging, which is frowned upon as stated by the Bible.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> I voted for Creationism. I believe that everything around me was created by a high power, God. Evolution doesn't appeal to me at all. Why? Because somewhere along the line it will overlap with the theory of Creationism, and as I already stated, I am a follower of God. I know, I know. There is so much "evidence" to try and prove the theory true, but it is just that. A theory. So I don't understand why some of you are baffled by the fact that people like me don't believe in it when it isn't even proven yet.
> 
> I believe when I die I will either go to Heaven or Hell for eternity, as decided by God. And no, I am not going to force the Bible verses down your throat like other members on here, nor am I going to **** you to Hell, because that is not my decision to make, and in my eyes, that is similiar to judging, which is frowned upon as stated by the Bible.


thank you  

you see, now that somebody (you) has said that in an clear and unagressive manner then i feel i can talk with you and maybe you could even sway my opinion. you just took all my guards down and now i feel i can have a conversation with you without being attacked


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I would hate to have to lock this thread. Please don't make me by making "if you don't believe as I do your going to hell" statements. This has been a very open and interesting thread. Lets keep it that way. Thanks


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

Wow I have seen some interesting posts since I last looked at this one. It seems that many of the people on here have stayed calm, especially given the subject. 

I like to see all thedifferent opinions. I do have a question for those of you who only believe in creationalism. Do you believe in the very stric construction of the bible that it was seven days? Or do you believe that since God is omnipotent it could have been a much larger time frame? (this is my personal belief, but I feel either way it is a miracle for it to have happened)

To the person who said we are not evolving...Have you ever studied the change in height since the time of the Egyptians? They were about 4ft tall. If someone is only 4ft tall now it would be odd to many of us. The average now is 5ft something. (don't know exactly) Through genetic drift there are more people of certain hair colors, heights, and shades of skin tones. I think it is pretty obvious to me after taking genetics classes in animal science that we continue to evolve today. I think that we as a race attempt not to because we want to fit the "norm", but it still happens. 

MNTIGERSTRIPES: I love your heaven.  Can I come? lol There was an email going around that I think you would like. I'll put it on the jokes thread so that I don't interrupt this one.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

SmoothTrails said:


> Wow I have seen some interesting posts since I last looked at this one. It seems that many of the people on here have stayed calm, especially given the subject.
> 
> I like to see all thedifferent opinions. I do have a question for those of you who only believe in creationalism. *Do you believe in the very stric construction of the bible that it was seven days? Or do you believe that since God is omnipotent it could have been a much larger time frame?* (this is my personal belief, but I feel either way it is a miracle for it to have happened)
> 
> ...


 
I am just going to go by the Bible and say that He did it in seven days. Seems a little unrealistic to me, but then again I believe He is the almighty, and that anything is possible in His hands.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> I am just going to go by the Bible and say that He did it in seven days. Seems a little unrealistic to me, but then again I believe He is the almighty, and that anything is possible in His hands.


 
That works. I was taught that we did not have to take it strictly. I'm Catholic as I stated in my last post, and our sunday school teacher was a Catholic scientist. :lol: I agree that with Him anything is possible, but I believe that since He is omnipotent who are we to really try to define what time could mean to Him.  I have an odd view, but I come from a unique background.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> I voted for Creationism. I believe that everything around me was created by a high power, God. Evolution doesn't appeal to me at all. Why? Because somewhere along the line it will overlap with the theory of Creationism, and as I already stated, I am a follower of God. I know, I know. There is so much "evidence" to try and prove the theory true, but it is just that. A theory. So I don't understand why some of you are baffled by the fact that people like me don't believe in it when it isn't even proven yet.
> 
> I believe when I die I will either go to Heaven or Hell for eternity, as decided by God. And no, I am not going to force the Bible verses down your throat like other members on here, nor am I going to **** you to Hell, because that is not my decision to make, and in my eyes, that is similiar to judging, which is frowned upon as stated by the Bible.


Good post. =) Kudos to you for making a very firm, yet very friendly post about this.



SmoothTrails said:


> Wow I have seen some interesting posts since I last looked at this one. It seems that many of the people on here have stayed calm, especially given the subject.
> 
> I like to see all the different opinions. I do have a question for those of you who only believe in creationalism.* Do you believe in the very strict construction of the bible that it was seven days? Or do you believe that since God is omnipotent it could have been a much larger time frame? (this is my personal belief, but I feel either way it is a miracle for it to have happened)*





> That works. I was taught that we did not have to take it strictly. I'm Catholic as I stated in my last post, and our sunday school teacher was a Catholic scientist. I agree that with Him anything is possible, but I believe that since He is omnipotent who are we to really try to define what time could mean to Him. I have an odd view, but I come from a unique background.


^^^^ EXACTLY.
I believe that the 7 days could possibly have been longer than the days known to man. I mean, we as humans can't know everything, especially when it comes to God. Yes, it says the universe and everything in it was created in 7 days. But, because God hasn't explained and specified, I think it's something that we can ponder over, and think about, but I think the only way we will know exactly what is what about anything, is when we get to ask Him, Himself, on the day we die.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I believe that the 7 days could possibly have been longer than the days known to man. I mean, we as humans can't know everything, especially when it comes to God. Yes, it says the universe and everything in it was created in 7 days. But, because God hasn't explained and specified, I think it's something that we can ponder over, and think about, but I think the only way we will know exactly what is what about anything, is when we get to ask Him, Himself, on the day we die.


 
That is a good point. Who is to say that a week in our time wasn't one day to God?


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> That is a good point. Who is to say that a week in our time wasn't one day to God?


That was what my teacher always said. It is difficult for humans to think in terms beyond their understanding. (especially during the period that the Bible was written) It is also one of the ways in which creationism and evolution can be combined. That is just like when you see such HUGE ages in the bible, we have to remember that they did not measure time in the same way that we do today, and we don't have a way to know true conversions.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> ^^^^ EXACTLY.
> I believe that the 7 days could possibly have been longer than the days known to man. I mean, we as humans can't know everything, especially when it comes to God. Yes, it says the universe and everything in it was created in 7 days. But, because God hasn't explained and specified, I think it's something that we can ponder over, and think about, but I think the only way we will know exactly what is what about anything, is when we get to ask Him, Himself, on the day we die.


I agree. That is on that list I am working on...lol. All the bajillion things I would like to ask Him.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> That is a good point. Who is to say that a week in our time wasn't one day to God?


Yep, that's what I think.
It's interesting to think about that it could possibly be longer than what we think is 'our' week, isn't it?


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> Yep, that's what I think.
> It's interesting to think about that it could possibly be longer than what we think is 'our' week, isn't it?


Well, considering that time is not the set, incredibly linear thing humans perceive it as, I would not be surprised at this.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

ridergirl23 said:


> please don't tell me that I can't believe in both.


I agree with that. It's great that you've found your (obviously very firm) way to believe but I have to admit also I found that a bit offensive toward my beliefs.

And to you who wonder how I can believe something that's not concretely proved, my religious part offers the same explanation like I told before: I think scientific methods don't work with faith. It's like walking with blind eyes; you can only believe that there's somebody who leads you. So if you ask me to give some unbiased, aka scientifically accepted proof I can't give you anything. Since there are nothing like that. Religiousness is relying, perhaps on ground of very strong personal experience or feeling (personally I don't have experiences like that and like I said earlier I'm a semi-believer). 

On the other hand, the not-believing part of me see the problem of lack of evidences. How you can be sure that there's somebody if He doesn't exist any concrete way or give any objective evidence? Especially when there are or have been dozens of different religions and human mind... well... works like it works.

Back to my religious part... If I believe in God, I'm also for the idea that perhaps time is a bit different for Him that it's for us. I don't know if I'm the first who has thought about it, but actually I see a lot of similarity among the Bible's creation myth and evolution. Like first come the Earth, then more undeveloped creatures, then more developed mammals and finally human creature. Of course there are some differences, but because I think the creation myth (and lot of stuff in the Bible) more metaphorical and the scientific theory about the beginning of the World seems also pretty insufficient for me, those two things still don't exist very contradictory in my mind.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

sorry, i didnt mean it to be offensive toward anyone


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

ridergirl23 said:


> sorry, i didnt mean it to be offensive toward anyone


No no, I didn't mean my comment to you but I'm with you in that thing. I mean I found a bit offensive the idea of it that you wouldn't believe in both.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

I believe in both. Although I consider myself a christian, the more I research our world, the more I believe in evolution.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm super happy with how well this thread has stayed on track.. for the most part anyways! I've found it very interesting to read all the different beliefs and opinions. I think it's awesome that (again, except for the odd member) we can share our individual beliefs without fear of being attacked or belittled for their beliefs. 
I myself believe in God, but I am not a steadfast Christian as most of those on this thread. I believe that maybe God "pushed the first domino" as it were, and then just kind of sat back not to interfere again. In that, I believe in evolution, definitely - being of a scientific mind, I can't deny it in my head. There is too much evidence for me. But it gives me great comfort to believe in a God, and so stems my belief. I do not take the Bible literally, I take it as a story someone (perhaps someone that could communicate with God) told long ago as guidelines (NOT rules written in stone!) to live a good life.
I have a hard time thinking that God would deny someone the right to be in Heaven just because they don't "believe;" I think that if a person has lived a good life, s/he deserves to lie in Heaven. 
That's what I think. That's what helps me sleep and accept loss, for what it's worth.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I have heard that before. My aunt got me a book and it was stories about people dying and going into heaven. One of the stories was a boy watching people getting accepted and he saw a girl turned away. The angel he was talking to said that although she had helped people, cared for the homeless etc she had never accepted God so wasn't allowed into heaven. I put the book down and chucked it out first oppotunity. I found that very sad. But anyway back on topic.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I'm super happy with how well this thread has stayed on track.. for the most part anyways! I've found it very interesting to read all the different beliefs and opinions. I think it's awesome that (again, except for the odd member) we can share our individual beliefs without fear of being attacked or belittled for their beliefs.
> I myself believe in God, but I am not a steadfast Christian as most of those on this thread. I believe that maybe God "pushed the first domino" as it were, and then just kind of sat back not to interfere again. In that, I believe in evolution, definitely - being of a scientific mind, I can't deny it in my head. There is too much evidence for me. But it gives me great comfort to believe in a God, and so stems my belief. I do not take the Bible literally, I take it as a story someone (perhaps someone that could communicate with God) told long ago as guidelines (NOT rules written in stone!) to live a good life.
> I have a hard time thinking that God would deny someone the right to be in Heaven just because they don't "believe;" I think that if a person has lived a good life, s/he deserves to lie in Heaven.
> That's what I think. That's what helps me sleep and accept loss, for what it's worth.


im gllad to hear that!
i am open to learn about god and stuff, and i respect him, but allthese hardcore religious people have made od sound like a cruel, harsh, unfare guy, which made me totally back away from religion and run! haha but i do believe in him


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Remember that religion was made by man, for man. That is why I do not believe in Religion. I am Spritual, not religious. Two seperate things.

I do not believe in a book that was written by man, thousands of years after the supposed incidents occured. I cannot take a book that was re-written by man, to heart either, nor can I hold faith in a book that has been altered by the church themselves so that it can work with their power over the people.

I believe in History, and I believe in hard facts. Far too much historical documentation and historical archiology and geology goes against much of what is written in this book of stories.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

ya, haha i was watching something about jesus on discovery channel to other day, there are a lot of facts  ive ever actually read the bible tho


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

im a strong believer in evolution. im also not religious. 
i think there is overwhelming evidence for evolution


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm glad someone else believes that anyone with a good life can get all to heaven  I thought that was another odd teaching that I learned. I was taught that people of any religion who strived to live a good life could reach heaven, and that although you must be perfect to be in God's presence there is time to become pure after death through purgatory. (I love Catholicism...lol. It is actually much more accepting than many think it is) 

We were taught that Catholics, protestants, and Jews had it a little easier because we do have the "guidelines", and then that other religious and spiritual people had the next easiest time because they still had some kind of guideline to help, and that finally it was most difficult for those who had no beliefs because they had no religious guidelines.

--I do not mean that to be offensive to anyone at all. I can't figure out a better way to word it. :~/ By difficult I don't mean its like you have to do even better...I mean it more like there is a difference in guidelines, and so it is easiest to get there by following those guidelines. (sorry if that's hard to understand...I'm really tired) 

I do hope that some of the very strict religious folks who have not been so accepting read this. I was always taught that you "should not just lest ye be judged" and that you should hate the sin not the sinner. I think this is something that should be kept in everyone's hearts. It is taught that you shoudl Evangelize but there is another quote that comes to mind from some of the more rowdy posting in all caps and huge print..."you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar." 

I'm not trying to be rude, but it's just a reminder that although you feel strongly you have no right to **** anyone and should try to be understanding.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, what guidelines are you referring to that would make it harder for those who are not Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish, and especially harder for those that hold no religious beliefs, to get into heaven?


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> I'm glad someone else believes that anyone with a good life can get all to heaven  I thought that was another odd teaching that I learned. I was taught that people of any religion who strived to live a good life could reach heaven, and that although you must be perfect to be in God's presence there is time to become pure after death through purgatory. (I love Catholicism...lol. It is actually much more accepting than many think it is)
> 
> I do hope that some of the very strict religious folks who have not been so accepting read this. I was always taught that you "should not just lest ye be judged" and that you should hate the sin not the sinner. I think this is something that should be kept in everyone's hearts. It is taught that you shoudl Evangelize but there is another quote that comes to mind from some of the more rowdy posting in all caps and huge print..."you catch more flies with sugar than vinegar."
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude, but it's just a reminder that although you feel strongly you have no right to **** anyone and should try to be understanding.


You spoke my mind with those parts there ^. I agree 100%. One shouldn't be judged or scorned by what they believe...it's the life lived that should matter most. And a friendly outlook on life and others, makes it much easier for everyone. =)
After all, this was meant to be a friendly thread, with positive discussion. =)


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

It's interesting to see how different beliefs we can have. Perhaps we should set up an own topic for these different beliefs? :wink:.

About myself, the religious part of me goes mainly with our church (I'm Evangelical Lutheran) and what I've been taught. Our teaching is that people who accept Jesus as their savior will be saved. I'm still not saying that I'll send anyone with different beliefs to hell since it isn't my job to judge anyone or anything. I hope this doesn't give the impression that our church would be very fervor. Personally I think it's very permissive, doesn't demand you to keep account on anything in your life to it or try to wrap you tightly with it or any rules (please note: I'm not going to bring any other church or religion down when I said I experience our church permissive: I know there are churchs and religions with different views and ways and I respect them so I'm not trying to say that 'this is better than that'). And like I said, a part of me isn't even in faith. Besides all that it's just my personal view.

I also know things that have perhaps impacted on my personal religious views: our school religious education which was pretty moderate and has perhaps the hugest impacts on me. Then the ministry of our confirmation camp that I participated around 15'ish. He was super conservative and his way to push all that religious stuff could be even pretty agonizing. I was pretty susceptible and thinking a lot of religious/spiritual things around that age so his views have perhaps impacted on me too.



roro said:


> Just out of curiosity, what guidelines are you referring to that would make it harder for those who are not Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish, and especially harder for those that hold no religious beliefs, to get into heaven?


That's an interesting view SmoothTrails and I'm wondering same things with roro . I've always thought that Catholics would have more stricter views as to things like that but obviously I was wrong.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

Just talking about where we all have the same basis for most of our rules. I don't know exactly what other faiths have as their "rules", but if you go by Christianity then it would go hand in hand that following the rules of Christianity (or Judaism since it is the basis for Christianity) would just be a little eaiser to know almost exactly what is expected of you. 

It's not supposed to be a big difference and (I think) it does also stipulate that during purgatory you accept Jesus and God as your savior, but that would mean you already had proof and it just took you some extra time to accept them. 

I think any people who are good can get in no matter their views with these stipulations.  As long as you are a good person it doesn't really matter your views. Moral people have a pretty equal chance, its just that certain groups would have similar guidelines adn would have already accepted God. 

If I go by the teaching on sins, then you could also fight that it is more difficult knowing the guidelines....lol. Catholics also believe in mortal sins, so if you commit mortal sins and do not repent then you would have a ticket straight to Hell. 8~/ In that case it would really suck because mortal sins are sins where you know it is wrong, you ignore that it is wrong, and you willingly commit the sin anyways. In that case it would actually make it more difficult to get in if you actually know the guidelines. 

I think the belief that any moral person who accepts God and Jesus during purgatory levels the playing field for everyone, and I am definitely happy that my teacher did tell us about that teaching. To answer your question though I think it is just that you are more sure of the guidelines which could make it easier and harder to get in...lol. It's complicated. =/ 

side note on purgatory--In Catholicism it is believed that you have to be perfect to go into the presence of God so everyone goes to purgatory for a little while to fix their imperfections. It is not a place of pain, only a place where you know you are almost good enough to be in Heaven but you can't see God yet. Ask if you would like more clarification.


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

The funny thing with me is that I was baptised and I confirmed but I was never really religious. I was having major doubts before I confirmed and shortly after I became an athiest (I have yet to "unregister" from the national church here though, so very officially I'm still a christian though). 

And now I've just realised that I don't even want to go to heaven. I just want to rest after I die, just not be aware of myself, not thinking, just be dead. That might seem strange to some of you but the thought sounds really appealing to me. I don't really try to be a good person to please anyone, I just try to be a good person because it's the right thing to do.

wow, my thoughts are all over the place. Well I hope this made any sense.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

TaMMa89 said:


> About myself, the religious part of me goes mainly with our church (I'm Evangelical Lutheran) and what I've been taught. Our teaching is that people who accept Jesus as their savior will be saved. I'm still not saying that I'll send anyone with different beliefs to hell since it isn't my job to judge anyone or anything. I hope this doesn't give the impression that our church would be very fervor. *Personally I think it's very permissive, doesn't demand you to keep account on anything in your life to it or try to wrap you tightly with it or any rules* (please note: I'm not going to bring any other church or religion down when I said I experience our church permissive: I know there are churchs and religions with different views and ways and I respect them so I'm not trying to say that 'this is better than that'). And like I said, a part of me isn't even in faith. Besides all that it's just my personal view.


I'm a little bit surprised by this...I don't get how one branch of Christianity can, from what it sounds like, have two extreme variations. I grew up Lutheran, and as of a year ago, decided to cut myself off from them, and go only Non-denom. because they were so judgmental. I couldn't walk into the church for Sunday morning with my family in jeans, without being glared at, let alone with dyed hair(mine is pink/neon orange/blonde), and my parents thought I was nuts by this, as they didn't notice such things taking place. Which I now know from past experience, that they just have been going to that church so long, they just don't notice anything to be 'out of the norm.' So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, if people weren't as judgmental, a lot more people would feel welcome in many places.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Sissimut-icehestar said:


> The funny thing with me is that I was baptised and I confirmed but I was never really religious. I was having major doubts before I confirmed and shortly after I became an athiest (I have yet to "unregister" from the national church here though, so very officially I'm still a christian though).
> 
> And now I've just realised that I don't even want to go to heaven. I just want to rest after I die, just not be aware of myself, not thinking, just be dead. That might seem strange to some of you but the thought sounds really appealing to me. I don't really try to be a good person to please anyone, I just try to be a good person because it's the right thing to do.
> 
> wow, my thoughts are all over the place. Well I hope this made any sense.


It made perfect sense and although I'm not an atheist I am in awe of a person as young as you being so smart! Its taken me 50+ years to be OK with _possibilities_ of there being nothing but unawareness after death. 
OK back to topic


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

irydehorses4lyfe said:


> I'm a little bit surprised by this...I don't get how one branch of Christianity can, from what it sounds like, have two extreme variations. I grew up Lutheran, and as of a year ago, decided to cut myself off from them, and go only Non-denom. because they were so judgmental. I couldn't walk into the church for Sunday morning with my family in jeans, without being glared at, let alone with dyed hair(mine is pink/neon orange/blonde), and my parents thought I was nuts by this, as they didn't notice such things taking place. Which I now know from past experience, that they just have been going to that church so long, they just don't notice anything to be 'out of the norm.' So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, if people weren't as judgmental, a lot more people would feel welcome in many places.


I know there are different variations of Lutheranism and also some sub-cults of it which can be more stricter. What you told sounds like Lestadianism which is one of the sub-cults of Lutheranism and pretty common in some parts of here in Finland. I know they don't accept things like contraception, dyed hairs or tv and some of them can be very custodial as to their religiousness. I've also heard some examples of that but I think I'm not going bring these examples here since I don't want to point out any religion, cult or group and generalize things since I know every religion has their very fervor and also lenient members. I think that I wanted to say that some groups can just be more stricter and passionate than others.

Perhaps it's also a bit cultural thing? Over here, the basic Finnish Lutheranism (excluding some of sub-culturs) is really pretty lenient like I said. I feel that our basic Evangelical Lutheran church is pretty faceless and don't try to interfere in people's "civil" life. Of course it has its Christian principles but one of the principles is also a doctrine of two kingdoms. As to your daily living and like that you have to follow your secular leaders and the parish and the church are for spiritual things. I think this doctrine is perhaps highlighted here since like the church doesn't usually try to impact on societal things very forcefully. Nowadays it also seems that the official lines of the church goes with the modern society. Like the common line is that there are no problems with things like women being ministries (I know that this is one of the things which can divide churchs and it has also produced some division in our church). The Lutheran church of our neigbor country Sweden accepted blessing gay marriages and our church has brought the idea of the possibility up every now and then also here. The vicar of our neighbor city changed his sex recently. Actually some of people part the church and join other churches because they feel our Lutheran church has seculared and lost its meaning. Perhaps one of the reasons of that leniency is that the Evangelical Lutheran church is one of our two official churches (we do have freedom of religion here but the Evangelical Lutheran and the Orthodox churches have a special status in our country) and the top management of the church, which defines and gives the official main lines, cover whole the Finland over the local parishes. It's a pretty large organisation which works very democratic way with members coming from here and there. What I've learnt is that usually institutions which work in very general state are more lenient and faceless compared to small, local institutions which are close to people.

Over here spiritual opinions are also very personal thing and for me it's for example a bit odd to talk about my religious views so openly here. It's also typical of us that the big part of members of the church don't go there or participate activities of the parish but every now and then (the last time I went to church was around 1½ years ago). I still reckon it's the general way here, not just for Lutherans since some of my friends are members of the other churches but aren't still that religious, participate more or become judged because of that. On the other hand, those who truly believe goes to the church and participate the parish.

So I think I wrote this long message because it perhaps best describes the Finnish way to show your religiousness and our Evangelical Lutheran church, which seems IMO to be 'the mother who opens her arms to everyone without judging' and holds the Christian traditions even of course there also are more devoted members in it. It seems amazing how the same church can be so different in different places. Personally I think forcing your opinions to others is the thing I don't like at all and I'm sorry that you've come across intolerance irydehorses4lyfe :sad:, but believe we all Lutherans aren't like that. 

But I think this went totally off topic now .


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

TaMMa89 said:


> I know there are different variations of Lutheranism and also some sub-cults of it which can be more stricter. What you told sounds like Lestadianism which is one of the sub-cults of Lutheranism and pretty common in some parts of here in Finland. I know they don't accept things like contraception, dyed hairs or tv and some of them can be very custodial as to their religiousness. I've also heard some examples of that but I think I'm not going bring these examples here since I don't want to point out any religion, cult or group and generalize things since I know every religion has their very fervor and also lenient members. I think that I wanted to say that some groups can just be more stricter and passionate than others.
> 
> Perhaps it's also a bit cultural thing? Over here, the basic Finnish Lutheranism (excluding some of sub-culturs) is really pretty lenient like I said. I feel that our basic Evangelical Lutheran church is pretty faceless and don't try to interfere in people's "civil" life. Of course it has its Christian principles but one of the principles is also a doctrine of two kingdoms. As to your daily living and like that you have to follow your secular leaders and the parish and the church are for spiritual things. I think this doctrine is perhaps highlighted here since like the church doesn't usually try to impact on societal things very forcefully. Nowadays it also seems that the official lines of the church goes with the modern society. Like the common line is that there are no problems with things like women being ministries (I know that this is one of the things which can divide churchs and it has also produced some division in our church). The Lutheran church of our neigbor country Sweden accepted blessing gay marriages and our church has brought the idea of the possibility up every now and then also here. The vicar of our neighbor city changed his sex recently. Actually some of people part the church and join other churches because they feel our Lutheran church has seculared and lost its meaning. Perhaps one of the reasons of that leniency is that the Evangelical Lutheran church is one of our two official churches (we do have freedom of religion here but the Evangelical Lutheran and the Orthodox churches have a special status in our country) and the top management of the church, which defines and gives the official main lines, cover whole the Finland over the local parishes. It's a pretty large organisation which works very democratic way with members coming from here and there. What I've learnt is that usually institutions which work in very general state are more lenient and faceless compared to small, local institutions which are close to people.
> 
> ...


Hehe, sorry I made you go off topic. But yeah...I don't know the names for the different parts of the Lutheran church in Finnish, but I do know that I've grown up in the main part until the past 6 years, which my family switched to going to a Missouri Synod/Evangelical associated Lutheran church...like I said, I kind of left being associated with the Lutheran church a few years ago, so I'm not sure what all the sub-names mean. :lol:
Yeah...I'm sorry too...because I found a nice, very massive church, but then in the past 5 years have had a massive amount of in-church drama happen(I dunno if you heard about the a massive church in CO having a huge scandal about a internationally known pastor at NLC, and then a shooting there two years later, would be 2 years this past Dec.) so I left that one because of all the chaos, and until the past few months I went to a Non-denominational church in the area, and have since then been somehow dragged into an insane amount of drama there, which wasn't existent anywhere else and then had to switch churches again, finally found a good church, but no good young adult/college group...and now haven't gone in a year thanks to all it.
Maybe it's just around here that is so unwelcoming, but...ehhh. I'm frustrated to say the least.

Anywho...back on topic...


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## LolHorse (Dec 28, 2009)

(I already posted but am going to post agian with more info xD)
Am thirteen, my family never forced religon down my throat, let alone speak a word about it. I've never been to church, or anything of that sort, if my parents believe in a god then there not very religous. Though I did go to a christian day care (it was the closet and most affordable place around) each day we had to read out of the bible and have a discussion about god, jesus, or what ever is christian related. I kinda disliked it, I thought it was pretty pointless, at the time I believed in my own god, he created the world way back then and then evolution took it's place, but he still looked over the world. About 3 years ago at age 10, I sat in bed and thought about my god? Was there actually a god? I though and thought and then went asleep as an athiest (sp?). And I never looked back. I respect everyones opionions on religon (there are exceptions for those who believe everyone should die and sacrfice of people and so on anything that breaks the law, is not exceptable in my standerds).


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't believe in the 'mansions and streets paved with gold' stuff.

My belief is that Heaven will be filled with the people and animals we love. 

I don't want a mansion on a paved street, whether it's gold or asphalt. I love living out in the country surrounded by trees, grass, and wildlife. To make me live 'in town', even in Heaven, would be hell for me.

I've had a dream, vision, or whatever you want to call it of what Heaven will be for me. It's a green and completely serene place. So breathtaking that even the loveliest places on Earth pale by comparison. 

I believe that whether or not you accept Jesus as the Son of God is _not _relevant to getting into Heaven. For those of us who have accepted Christianity, _our_ fates hinge on that. For others, it doesn't.

Christianity is NOT the largest religion on the planet, and I have a very hard time believing that the God I love would condemn millions of people to hell because they didn't accept His son. That's not the kind of God I'd willingly worship.

God _has_ no religion. Humanity is the one that needs it, and my belief is that whichever one speaks to your soul is the right one for you.

The _only_ things we're here for are how to learn to love and care for one another. What religion you are, or not even having one, has little to do with whether or not we're granted eternal life. 

Anyway, that's off tangent on the original post, but my beliefs and my acceptance of science live peacefully together in my mind. I'll respect your beliefs, whatever they may be, as long as you respect mine.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

Evolution. I love science, in school and out. 
I do believe there is some place where we go when we die, but weather or not there is a god, I don't know.
My family is probably the most non-religious family EVER. The only time I have ever been to a church was if I spent a Saturday night over at a friend's house, and had to go to church with them the next morning. 
I am very open to hearing other people's thoughts and opinions on this though. This whole thread has been very interesting to me.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I am going to have to disagree with some of you here and say that just living a good life isn't going to give you a ticket to Heaven. Being a Southern Baptist, we are just a little more leniant(sp?) than other demoninations such as Church of Christ, Primitive Baptist, etc. But, if you don't even believe in God or Jesus, then how could you possibly expect to get into Heaven? I don't believe you can just breeze through life doing good deeds and just expect it like that. I think those that do get into Heaven will have worked hard for it. I am not saying that doing good deeds are bad, but I do believe that if you want into Heaven you should not only do good things, but act in the Christan way. Now, I am not perfect. As a matter of fact, I am far from it. I know it is not my decision as to who gets into Heaven, and who gets to walk a couple flights of stairs down, but there are certain guidelines expected out of a person that gives them a good impression upon God, therefore giving them a better chance of getting into Heaven.

I totally rambled. =/ Sorry. First day back to school. I am drained. lol.





EDIT: Oh. I should add. For the record, I don't believe animals will be in Heaven. It says in the Bible that they don't have souls, and you kind of need a soul to get into Heaven.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I love your post, Speed Racer. I do hope you're right :]


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thank you, wild spot. 

My beliefs feel right to me. They may not feel right to others, but that's okay. I'm not going to bludgeon anyone over the head with God, or try to make them believe as I do. God won't do that either; only RELIGIONS do that.

God woos us like a lover, not pursues us like a dictator. He doesn't DEMAND, He requests. His entreaties are gentle, and you have to listen for Him with your soul. He is a consummate gentleman, and if you reject Him He goes away, but not far. 

As far as animals not having souls, do they not belong to God? Did He not give them the breath of life, the same as He did with us?

If I am to be happy in Heaven my animals need to be there. Didn't God promise us that Heaven will contain everything we need to make us happy? For me, that includes animals, especially the ones I've loved and lost.

Besides, doesn't the Bible state that the lion will lie down with the lamb, and that Jesus will return with His army, riding horses? If there are no animals in Heaven, then why is the Bible fraught with references to them?

Think of the people you love and who love you. All of us are far from perfect, and yet we are capable of great love and compassion. If humanity, as flawed as we are, can love like that, how much more does God love? 

It's incomprehensible to me that God is so petty and venial that He requires certain criteria before we're 'good enough' to get into Heaven. Trust me, NONE of us is ever good enough, regardless of our beliefs and rituals. Eternal life is a gift, and gifts should not come with strings or requirements.

Sorry, I get a little preachy sometimes. I can ramble on about theology, monotheism, God and science all day.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I picked uncertain. I kinda believe in both theory's. But if there is a God I do *not *want to go to hell or heaven... I would hate to leave earth only to go somewhere else and live for ever lasting life. 

I'm just weird lol


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Thank you, wild spot.
> 
> My beliefs feel right to me. They may not feel right to others, but that's okay. I'm not going to bludgeon anyone over the head with God, or try to make them believe as I do. God won't do that either; only RELIGIONS do that.
> 
> ...


This sounds right on-par with my thoughts as well - thank you! I thought I was odd for thinking "outside the box" if you will.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

lacyloo said:


> I picked uncertain. I kinda believe in both theory's. But if there is a God I do *not *want to go to hell or heaven... I would hate to leave earth only to go somewhere else and live for ever lasting life.
> 
> I'm just weird lol


I picked uncertain because I don't disbelieve either one too :lol:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> This sounds right on-par with my thoughts as well - thank you! I thought I was odd for thinking "outside the box" if you will.


JDI, being a 'thinking Christian' has gotten me into more hot water than I can tell you. 

People don't like it if you question the 'whys' of something they take as literal gospel. Sorry, but I'm not going to blindly follow ANY group, especially one that excludes a number of people just because they're different.

Religion has been the catalyst for some of the most atrocious crimes and inhumanity we've committed against each other all through history. Christianity has no room to be smug, because _every_ religion has its dark underbelly.

Being intolerant of others is not what Christ was all about. The same holds true for Mohammed, Buddha, etc. Intolerance and hatred were incorporated into religion by PEOPLE, not God or His prophets.

People want to think they're special, and for some that means they have to believe the religion they follow is the 'one true way', and all the others are hogwash. What they fail to realize is that ALL of us are special to God, and it has _nothing_ to do with the religions we follow.

People want world peace, but we trash each other for even minor differences, so how on Earth are we supposed to get along concerning the big issues when we can't even agree that God loves ALL of us? Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, ALL are beloved in God's eyes.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

^^^ Amen sister!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I like the way you think, Speed Racer. =)


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

^ Ditto.

Pretty wise stuff to me.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks, ladies.

This is a very passionate subject for me, as I think you can tell! :wink:

I'm an avid student of Christianity, and have also dabbled in learning about other religions. 

I'm fascinated by the evolution of religion and why we have certain holidays on certain days, how specific rituals and restrictions came into being, as well as how we went from polytheism to monotheism.

Really, don't get me started. I can talk on this subject all day! Laugh! :lol:


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I'm a historical fanatic and I am not Religious. I cannot believe in man made organizations, but I am spiritual - *as I have stated in posts before.*

I think outside the box myself, and I get looked at oddly - but why is it that people are so quick to believe this book that was written by man time and time again, warped, books taken out, and etc etc etc - and stand by everything stated being facts and the truth - but are quick to laugh at me for thinking outside the box when I go by historical documentation and archiology. 

Interesting I say.

I grew up in a family full of Historians and Archiologists - I ask why, how, when, all the time and that includes the bible. I speak my mind, and I am not quick to follow stories without hard facts.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Evolution, the scientific fact is there
and im a science geek


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

MIE - One of of the most interesting classes I've taken in school was "The Bible as Literature". The class examined the factual accounts in the bible and the political motivation of certian passages/books. We also discussed the information that was not contained in the bible and the differrent meanings attributed to words. It was very enlightening.  Right off the bat the prof stated "If you're in this class to discuss religion you should drop it NOW. This is a factual class not a religious class." That was really nice to hear.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> People want to think they're special, and for some that means they have to believe the religion they follow is the 'one true way', and all the others are hogwash. What they fail to realize is that ALL of us are special to God, and it has _nothing_ to do with the religions we follow.
> 
> People want world peace, but we trash each other for even minor differences, so how on Earth are we supposed to get along concerning the big issues when we can't even agree that God loves ALL of us? Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, ALL are beloved in God's eyes.


What are these big issues? How is a person's religious beliefs relevant to them? Why can nonreligious and nontheist people not be included in these big issues? Why must we all agree that a god loves us to solve these big issues?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

roro said:


> Why must we all agree that a god loves us to solve these big issues?


We don't, roro. But unfortunately, too many people THINK we all have to be exactly alike in order for us to get along. Which means if you don't believe, act, live, have the same morals, etc. as I do, then you're wrong.

I enjoy diversity. Whether or not you believe in God has nothing to do with someone being a good person. I've had many friends on both sides of the religion issue, and some of the most interesting conversations I've ever had have been with nonChristians and nondeists.

If you don't believe in God, that's fine; I'm not going to try and force you to. But nondeists are just as intolerant of the religious as the other way around.

I don't think Wiccans, Pagans, nonChristians and nonbelievers are 'from the debbil', nor do I believe that homosexuals are cursed. We all have something to contribute to life on this little blue marble, and it saddens me that we can't get past the superficial crap in order to tackle the real problems.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Hear hear, Speed Racer.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> We don't, roro. But unfortunately, too many people THINK we all have to be exactly alike in order for us to get along. Which means if you don't believe, act, live, have the same morals, etc. as I do, then you're wrong.
> 
> I enjoy diversity. Whether or not you believe in God has nothing to do with someone being a good person. I've had many friends on both sides of the religion issue, and some of the most interesting conversations I've ever had have been with nonChristians and nondeists.
> 
> ...


One down. 
What are these big issues? How is a person's religious beliefs relevant to them? Why can nonreligious and nontheist people not be included in these big issues?


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

Well, religion and related intolerance _has_ sparked a buttload of tragic conflicts throughout history.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> They are both "theory's" so neither can be proven...yet. I'm holding my opinion until one or the other is cold hard scientific fact. I'm sure I will be holding it a long time.
> 
> One relys on faith the other science, I believe in both :lol:


Thank you Vida. I also have the same response as Maureen.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I watched a show called "The Link" I think it was on the History or NGC. There was a part where they did a great job of explaining natural selection. It was about the discovery of Ida. Did anyone else see it? Revealing the Link - Welcome
I still stand by my idea that science and faith can co-exist.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

roro said:


> One down.
> What are these big issues? How is a person's religious beliefs relevant to them? Why can nonreligious and nontheist people not be included in these big issues?


Are you deliberately being obtuse because you're looking for an argument, roro?

Where did I say that nondeists CAN'T BE included in solving the world's problems? If you read my posts, you'll see that I include_ everyone_ as having something to contribute.

What are the big issues? Racism, genocide, fratricide, pedophilia, suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, neglect, abuse, pick your poison. The world is a sick, sad place, and I'm well aware that religious intolerance is the catalyst for much of what's wrong, as well as intolerance of others in general, regardless of their religious affiliations. People hate what's different about each other, instead of making it something in which to rejoice.

Heck, even we as horsepeople can't coalesce and just agree to disagree on certain things. Take Parelli and equine slaughter, for examples. Those are two of the most hotly debated topics I've ever seen, and neither side is willing to give an inch. 

You don't believe in God, but I do. What does your disbelief or my belief have to do with what either of us may offer in making the world a better place? _*Nothing*_.

The idea is to get PAST the differences, not hate the other person for having them.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that I look at the world through a believer's eyes. Whether or not _you_ believe in a God who loves you, doesn't make Him love you any less. That is MY belief. You are free to think it's all a bunch of hoo-ha, and I'm okay with that.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ You need to wright a book.



I'd buy it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Heck, even we as horsepeople can't coalesce and just agree to disagree on certain things. Take Parelli and equine slaughter, for examples. Those are two of the most hotly debated topics I've ever seen, and neither side is willing to give an inch.
> 
> You don't believe in God, but I do. What does your disbelief or my belief have to do with what either of us may offer in making the world a better place? _*Nothing*_.
> 
> The idea is to get PAST the differences, not hate the other person for having them.


I agree - and in keeping with this theme, let's all remember that the biggest word needed for this thread is TOLERANCE. 


(Not directly commenting on the above quote anymore...) 
One might not agree with another's opinion, but unless one's words and actions are bringing direct bodily harm to themselves or others, I do think it's a moot point to argue about. We will ALL have differing opinions - and that's fantastic, the world would be a very very boring place if we all thought the same way - but we all have to respect one another - or at the very least, tolerate the varying opinions. If anyone thinking of posting here can't be tolerant of others, Please please don't post here. 
This has been an incredibly educational thread for myself, I think it's been quite the eye-opener to read all the various replies. Let's not stoop to calling out on one another - debate is healthy, pointless arguing and bantering is not.


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

Evolution.
I absolutely don't believe in a 'God'..


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## draykesmom (Dec 29, 2009)

Well all I can say is it seems the public schools, taking prayer out of school and teaching only their "theory" has done a good job.. when people feel they come from apes instead of an all mighty creator.. it is a sad day.


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

draykesmom said:


> Well all I can say is it seems the public schools, taking prayer out of school and teaching only their "theory" has done a good job.. when people feel they come from apes instead of an all mighty creator.. it is a sad day.


I have no problem thinking I come from an ape 
I don't believe there is an 'all mighty creator'

I think we all came from scratch, just like every other animal is part of an evolution.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

draykesmom said:


> Well all I can say is it seems the public schools, taking prayer out of school and teaching only their "theory" has done a good job.. when people feel they come from apes instead of an all mighty creator.. it is a sad day.


i dont really mind who or what i come from i am me, and that is that. 
i actually like apes too :lol:


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

We didn't come from apes, we came from mutations of apes. Am I wrong? isn't that what natural selection is based on? We are both primates though and share a common ancestor. We just started to develop a larger brain and better knees :lol: I think God is in the much smaller earlier mix of putting those proteins in the right order in the primordial soup. So what you don't think God was around that long ago? That Adam and Eve couldn't possibly be two proteins that divided just right to start us on the road to what we are today? 
Or that Eve could have possibly been the mother of the first primate to stand upright? 
Sorry I'm babbling :lol:
If you believe in the literal translation of the Adam and Eve story than we are all evolved from incest


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

draykesmom said:


> Well all I can say is it seems the public schools, taking prayer out of school and teaching only their "theory" has done a good job.. when people feel they come from apes instead of an all mighty creator.. it is a sad day.


 
I agree with you completely. Because for some reason it is perfectly ok to abolish one theory completely because of couple of chumps complain about people like me praying in school, while people like me are forced to listen to the THEORY of Evolution in my science class.

For the record, we have a moment of silence in the morning before school starts at my school, and I most definately pray, and pity for those who don't.


hahaha. Sorry. I couldn't hold my tongue, because she is right.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> I agree with you completely. Because for some reason it is perfectly ok to abolish one theory completely because of couple of chumps complain about people like me praying in school, while people like me are forced to listen to the THEORY of Evolution in my science class.
> 
> For the record, we have a moment of silence in the morning before school starts at my school, and I most definately pray, and pity for those who don't.
> 
> ...


oh dont pity me just cuz i dont pray in the mornings. I am more then happy to be in hell if god sends me to hell because i dont prey as much as he would like me to. if god sends people to hell for something like that, then i dont think i want to meet him.......


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

ridergirl23 said:


> oh dont pity me just cuz i dont pray in the mornings. I am more then happy to be in hell if god sends me to hell because i dont prey as much as he would like me to. if god sends people to hell for something like that, then i dont think i want to meet him.......





Because I totally said he sends people to Hell for not praying enough? Where did I say that?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I would just like to re-iterate my whole spiel about tolerance and how this should be a discussion. No need for this thread to turn ugly because of a lack of tolerance on others' beliefs. Some believe it's important to pray, and believe in God, or another Higher Power - that's fantastic! But it's just as fantastic to not believe, or have very different ideas. Please respect that.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

ok, sorry, Tenessee: the point im trying to get across is(obviously i cant getit across very clearly  ) that all the hard-core religious people a lot of the time make god sound like a bad guy. i do believe in him, and i believe in science, but when religious people say stuff like: 'if you dont pray to god, you will go to hell' or god sends all none-believers to hell' and stuff like that, it makes me NOT want to believe in him,and it makes me want to go to hell and get a tan rather then live in streets of gold. 



(none of this was specifically for you)


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Are you deliberately being obtuse because you're looking for an argument, roro?
> 
> Where did I say that nondeists CAN'T BE included in solving the world's problems? If you read my posts, you'll see that I include_ everyone_ as having something to contribute.
> 
> ...


I was not looking for an argument. I was attempting to truly understand your post and to do that I needed further explanation.
Your passage "how on Earth are we supposed to get along concerning the big issues when we can't even agree that God loves ALL of us? Jew, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, ALL are beloved in God's eyes." stood out to me because this could easily be interpreted as if we do not agree that god loves us all (including nondiests), we are not capable of solving big issues such as pedophilia etc or 'get along'. This struck me as unusual because many people who have made very important creations and ideas that solved big issues for their time were atheistic or agnostic or otherwise non-religious. However, you have now clarified your point so I thank you.


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> For the record, we have a moment of silence in the morning before school starts at my school, and I most definately pray, and pity for those who don't.
> 
> 
> hahaha. Sorry. I couldn't hold my tongue, because she is right.


Why? I NEVER pray! I don't see the use, I don't believe in God, so I don't pray.
Do I need to be pitied?  Nop! Actually, I'm just fine without praying and without this 'God' people speak about (I do NOT Mean that in an offensive way! I say this in this way, so that I don't have to say that there IS a god, because for me, there indeed isn't.)

And she is right?
What makes her right?
What makes me Wrong for thinking there is none?
I don't think Faith is a matter of Wrong and Right, but of Believing and Not believing.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Kashmere said:


> Why? I NEVER pray! I don't see the use, I don't believe in God, so I don't pray.
> Do I need to be pitied?  Nop! Actually, I'm just fine without praying and without this 'God' people speak about (I do NOT Mean that in an offensive way! I say this in this way, so that I don't have to say that there IS a god, because for me, there indeed isn't.)
> 
> And she is right?
> ...


very well put! 

haha apperantly more well put then mine :lol:


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## draykesmom (Dec 29, 2009)

Lis said:


> Ah well each to their own. Not going to disrespect your beliefs so long as you don't disrespect mine thank you very much. I was raised a Christian, went to Christian schools and I personally am not a Christian also I don't think it helped that I had my life made a living hell by kids who were supposed to be Christians. I admire your faith but it's not mine it's yours. No one here has tried to force their theory down another's throat so don't you be the first one. You can believe in both or at least people can but you can't so fair enough. I understand you may be offended but you can't say by the same token that everything else is wrong when nothing has been proven. Everything is still being validated.
> 
> Although always been curious about Hell so there you go although again I believe in reincarnation into other lifeforms.


 
I didnt realize I was forcing my beliefs down your throat or anyone elses for that matter, i simply gave my opinion = isnt that what this post was asking for.. you can believe what you choose.. its your life.. live it.. as for me and my house I WILL SERVE THE LORD. that is my choice.. and i will live that. If you want to believe there is no God, that you come from an accident, an ape or a chicken for that matter that is completely up to you but for you to attack me after I merely gave my opion shows me why you were picked on PERIOD.. let alone by so called Christians.. I am not & have not slammed you in any way.. nor am I attacking your beliefs I am just stating my opionion as EVERYONE ELSE is also doing.. I havent attacked them either. So dont get your feathers ruffled (you may need them in your next life)... lol take care. And pick your battles wisely..


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Just another reminder: can we please remember to keep our opinions open-minded, and not make personal attacks? Thank you!!


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Wasn't addressing you Draykesmom, it was triplecrowngirl I was referring to but I think we posted at the same time.


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