# A Bit About Bits Part 3



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Kuddos on a very excellent video! Shank and purchase ratio, as it relates to signal time is very well explained, as are mouth piece design.
I now also know the explanation of why a horse that learns to work with a quiet and relaxed mouth,learning to carry that bit, without having that mouth forced shut by various cavassons does not foam. 
I always worked my horses towards that goal in mind, showing western, but never had a good explanation for those that claimed a foamy mouth shows a horse accepting a bit!


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

1 reply? Seriously? Am I wasting my time here?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

No, you are not wasting your time. A 60 minute video is a bit intimidating to watch. We have some Internet problems at peak demand, so I downloaded it overnight to watch this morning.

The three videos you have put together on bits are vastly better than anything else I've seen. It is much better than any book I have on the subject.

The only problem may be that many people just want "a bit to do X". They want to skip training, and they want to skip spending 2 hours on 3 videos that will tell them what they need to know to make an intelligent decision!

Also - I've noticed English riders like to write about riding, and western riders...well, mostly get on and ride. I've got a couple shelves of books on English riding, but only a couple of OK books on western riding. I'm a fan of western riding, but all the truly good books on riding I own are very English in approach.

I know I'm going to post your videos in response to people's questions in the future, but I don't know how many will actually watch and learn. I have tried to simplify it down to "Snaffles pull back & curb bits rotate" - but even THAT seems to be more than a lot of folks want to hear. I wish I could get a dollar for every thread asking for "a good bit to collect my horse's head". I could quit work and buy me a fancy horse.

:cheers:​


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Daniel,

if you participated more here, as a regular in discussions, instead of posting links to your website with your videos, it would seem more like you are inviting comment and willing to engage in discussion, rather than just self advertising.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I tend to think of Daniel's threads as raisins in the muffin, although I sometimes pull them off subject without meaning to do so. Given how few people study bits or put in any thought to how or why they work (or not), I'm glad to see a thoughtful and detailed explanation.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sure Daniel has a lot to offer, but so far, it's been mostly limited to links to his website. not a crime, just that it doesn't show much interest in the forum beyond getting folks to go there.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

344 posts. Not close to my 8,000-ish, but it could be argued that 7,000 posts about Mia was/is a bit excessive...:think:


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Hi, Daniel. I noticed your name and this thread. I have watched a good portion of the video, but I wanted to watch and study all three of your videos before responding. I have some ideas I'd like to run by you, but I wanted to see if you've already covered them. They include the affects of applying the reins in various directions as well as the argument presented by General William H. Carter in his book "The U.S. Cavalry Horse" (first published in 1895) for the traditional two-to-one ratio.

I appreciate your effort in trying to understand and explain some of the innumerable variations in bits, how they operate, and some of the variables that affect their use. I have put some effort into trying to understand the principals associated with various designs. I have been working on several charts to illustrate various effects of design and use. Manufacturers and sellers of bits seldom provide much detailed physics behind the bits they promote. The few texts I've found trying to explain bits and their applications all appear quite limited in their own ways. I would love to find a more definitive text.

I often get the impression that bits are to many horsemen what lures are to many fishermen. They hear anecdotes about certain bits, have friends that use them, or see them used by people they consider good riders and buy them in hopes that they will solve whatever problem they are having with their horses. Such people often don't want to bother trying to comprehend the theories behind the design and use of different bits. Some buy bits simply because they like the looks of them.

Others may be perfectly happy with what they are currently using and have little interest in understanding how other bits work. Still others may have become overwhelmed by the many variables that can be used as arguments against different theories

Then, there are people like many students of various topics who simply try to absorb what they hear but feel they can form no good response.

I sometimes get discouraged by how little response I get after all the work I put into designing my web sites. Then there are the limited sales of the books which took me years to write. But I hear this is the same for many authors and publishers of books I have purchased and appreciated. When I feel discouraged, I try to remind myself that my real desire is to share what I have learned in the hope that even a few may benefit from my efforts.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I am sure Daniel has a lot to offer, but so far, it's been mostly limited to links to his website. not a crime, just that it doesn't show much interest in the forum beyond getting folks to go there.


I asked for feedback and I thank you for yours. However, being analytical, I went to the facts. As a contributor, I have given out about 700 likes. 700 times, I read a thread and agree with another's post so I contribute by giving it a "like". My stamp of approval and a "positive reinforcement, if you will. Of the 344 times I took the time to comment, about twenty of so are "links to my website and shameless self promotion". So, about 320 times I read posts and spent time answering them, often with several paragraphs, not just a sentence or two.
So, you are factually VERY off on your premise. Not to mention, this site doesn't allow " links to your website". There is precisely ONE link to my website and it resides solely in my signature. ALL other links are to thoughtful, experienced, and FREE information there for the taking.
As a poster, I admit that I have grown weary of answering the SAME TEN questions over and over again. Quite frankly, there is not a bit question in the archives of this forum that the poster would have no need to ask if they spent 30 minutes on my, again, FREE videos, all of which have links back to horseforum.com
So, from my point of view, over a thousand times, I have contributed to various posts on this forum alone. About 20 times I have asked a question of my own. That question has been the same, "How did you like this FREE information?"
That hardly seems out of line, to me at least...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My remarks were aimed at your apparent disappointment at the lack of response to your links to multiple videos from your training website. If you engage in actual discussions with members however repetitive they can become , you will have more engahing responses from reAders of your posts, which DO have great videos to offer..


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Again, thanks.

Again, the links are to YOUTUBE, not my website. There is a difference, as one is against the rules. Just ask a moderator.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I have contributed here over 1000 times. Less than 2% of the time have I asked for anything in return, and that boils down to a mere click of a mouse. A thought or two on what you liked or didn't would be a great bonus, and is always appreciated.

Thus far, I don't think I have wasted anyone's time. The lack of response, however has me seriously questioning if I am wasting mine...


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I have not been able to cajole my painfully slow internet to allow me to watch all of the video yet, but I did appreciate the section talking about mouth suction and how a bit _should_ work.

I have been seeing an article about some current research by Dr Cook claiming bits are the cause of death in racehorses making the rounds on facebook. There is also another one talking up the wonders of bitless going around, too. While I read both with a grain of salt seeing as the person producing them just happens to sell a bitless bridle (and I wasn't going to pay to access the entire research article), it did make me pause to think about the physiology involved.


Look forward to seeing the rest of your video, if in smaller than ideal increments.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Other researchers have looked at it and concluded bits do not interfere with breathing. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the study...

Almost all the studies I've been able to find using radiographs to SEE what goes on inside the mouth have been done with dressage horses and dressage bits. Almost all of them have involved snaffles only.

This one, from "Bitting: The Inside Story" - USDF Connection Dec 2005, may have a little application to western riding:








​ 
It at least makes clear the role the tongue has in relieving pressure on the bars. A lot of folks assume "tongue relief" makes a bit gentler. The US Cavalry considered a bit with tongue relief to be more severe, since any pressure not sustained by the tongue is transferred instead to the bars.

This screenshot has one of the very few pictures I've found of a curb bit inside the mouth (click on it to enlarge):








​ 
The article it was in has the best short discussion of bits I've found, although I think he gets a few things wrong:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf

I honestly don't know how they get a curb bit with straight sides to stay aligned when the horse's head is not vertical. With my bits, the weight of the reins always causes the end of the shank to rotate to its lowest possible spot. Assuming my horse carries its head at a 45 deg angle, that means a 45 deg bend in the sides results in the "neutral" position involving no rotation. If I use a straight shank bit, when my horse's head is at 45 deg, the weight of the reins will rotate the bit 45 degrees - which also tightens the curb strap and removes all of the "signal". Mia had the curb strap tighten all by itself in this picture, which is what taught me just how freely a curb bit can rotate:










If you click on it to enlarge it, I think this one shows that the curb has rotated enough to tighten the curb strap even though the reins are not completely straight:








​
I ride Bandit in a snaffle right now. I eventually want to transition him to a curb because I think a curb gives the option for gentler communication than a snaffle does. Used right, it is potentially gentler than a sidepull halter - IF you can get the horse responsive during the "signal" phase. The signal phase allows for precise communication without applying pressure...but Bandit is probably 6-12 months away from being ready for the transition.

I transitioned Mia to a curb bit for a very different reason - and it worked very well with her. But she was probably a "One Percent" kind of horse, and Bandit is more of a "99-percent" kind.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm Dun getting Cornfuzed wit all dis stuff.. feel way out of my league..LOL


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A closer up picture...couldn't edit my previous post since I was past the time limit:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> 1 reply? Seriously? Am I wasting my time here?


I guess you would have to define wasting your time....you posted a link to a video, which I have chosen not to click on, does that mean you have wasted your time?

You maybe analytical, but being part of a forum is far more than just a numbers game, I'm not sure if I am impressed or *not sure of what word I want here....so I'm leaving it hanging* that you have analysed your own participation in the forum to such a degree....but numbers are only part of it.

A forum is a community, sharing all sorts of things, knowledge is of course an important part of that, but people often are looking for specific answers to their questions, now yes the answers maybe in the archives, the subject has been covered before, but they want to feel it is personal to them, so they ask again...that is the way of forums. 

As TXhorseman rightly says 



> When I feel discouraged, I try to remind myself that my real desire is to share what I have learned in the hope that even a few may benefit from my efforts.


That is what all of us do, my mission is simple, to be a poster child for not buying a horse that is half broke and bolshy, when you do not have the skill level to deal with it. I leave my message, and move on, if I can save someone from spending a month in hospital getting fixed, then great, it worked, but I can't make them listen or respond.

So, I can't tell if you are wasting your time, you will have to ask yourself what is it you want to 'get' from sharing this, I guess if it is responses from here then yes I guess you are. I read that it is a 60 minute video, that is a bunch of time to ask of a person.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Didnt make it very far into the video yet.. But I'd like to discuss a couple things already.

First off, with the narrow ports that arent very tall (like a correction bit is what I'm gonna assume you're talking about) there is potential for the tongue to get pinched up in there and essentially grabbed by the bit. Those ports actually arent the greatest from my understanding. They dont have enough room for any tongue relief and still act on the tongue and bars and lips. Some food for thought there.

Now, the whole "bits are only as harsh as the hands" i only agree with this for some bits. Its not a general statement thats good for all bits. I like to use that statement when people are freaking out over a pretty regular curb bit that they are too afraid to use to just pass it off as scary and aggressive.
Truth is, there are lots of bits out there that not even soft hands should be using. Thin twisted wire, wonky combo gag bits that basically are a vice on a horses face, bike chain... I could go on for a while on this. Instead of generalizing that statement, I'd rather point at a bit (for example a mona lisa) and say its not harsh in experienced hands and in a horse that is trained to a high enoigh level to understand the type communication this bit exhibits.

My two cents for now.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I haven't watched this particular video yet Daniel but I can say that I've appreciated the others you've posted. I don't go to all the sections of the forum every day so this is the first I've seen this post and I'll probably watch the video tonight.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I like the fact that the video empathizes the fact, particularly far as western curbs, that any bit can be harsh, and also depends on the hands on those reins , BUT also, it depends on the education of that horse_ All to often missed!
A horse needs to 'graduate to a curb, thus able to be ridden with more finesse, and invisible signal, and not for control-something i have spent endless amount of time harping on!
I gotta admit, that I can't watch all those videos on line, burning up my internet down load data allotment, as I am rural an don't have un limited internet access, without major cost!
I have copies of Bob Avila;s series on Bittology and also heard Greg Darrnel 's bitting presentation. Yours is an added resource.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

bsms said:


> Other researchers have looked at it and concluded bits do not interfere with breathing. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the study...
> horses can only breath through their nostrils. Bits can't interfere with breathing.
> Almost all the studies I've been able to find using radiographs to SEE what goes on inside the mouth have been done with dressage horses and dressage bits. Almost all of them have involved snaffles only.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

QHriderKE said:


> Didnt make it very far into the video yet.. But I'd like to discuss a couple things already.
> 
> First off, with the narrow ports that arent very tall (like a correction bit is what I'm gonna assume you're talking about) there is potential for the tongue to get pinched up in there and essentially grabbed by the bit. Those ports actually arent the greatest from my understanding. They dont have enough room for any tongue relief and still act on the tongue and bars and lips. Some food for thought there.
> i describe the point you are trying to make here as "Paralysis by Analysis." Whoever told you that obviously has a strong prednisone with little to no actual experience with those bits. It is as simple as described in the video. I easily have hundreds of horses and God only knows how manat hours of actual experience using those bits and have never seen what you are proposing happen.
> ...


My Two cents. Thanks.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is from Dr Cook:"As soon as a bit is placed in the mouth,” says Dr. Cook, “the horse is being signaled to think ‘eat.’ The lip seal is broken; the horse begins to salivate and to move its lips, jaw, and tongue. These are digestive system reflexes, dominated by the parasympathetic nervous system, which initiates all responses to do with rest and relaxation. 

When a rider mounts, however, the sympathetic nervous system is also triggered. The horse is now being signaled to think ‘exercise'. Accordingly, an opposing set of fight-and-flight responses is initiated."

"Therefore," Dr. Cook concludes, "bitted horses are being expected - quite unreasonably - to give of their best in terms of athletic performance with these two nervous systems in conflict. The horse is not ‘designed’ to eat and exercise at the same time...

For swallowing, the soft palate has to be in the ‘up’ or dorsal position. Conversely, for deep breathing, the soft palate has to be in the ‘down’ or ventral position. Use of the bit, which encourages the dorsal position, leads to many pharyngeal problems, gagging reflexes, difficulties in breathing, and - less obviously - difficulties in striding," Dr. Cook explains. 

"A cantering or galloping horse takes one stride for every breath. Because of this, anything that interferes with breathing also interferes with striding. As the bit breaks the lip seal, air enters the oral cavity. Helped along by movement of the tongue and jaw at exercise, the air creeps upward and invades the oropharynx, the digestive part of the throat, the roof of which is the soft palate. 

Because the soft palate floats upward on its bubble of air, this reduces the diameter of the nasopharynx, the respiratory part of the throat. Restriction of the airway from this simple elevation of the soft palate results in partial asphyxia, which may progress to intermittent ‘thickness of wind’ or even a more permanent ‘roaring’ noise (laryngeal stridor)."

Dr. Cook continues, "At fast exercise, this bit-induced elevation of the soft palate can also lead to 'dorsal displacement of the soft palate' (DDSP) and epiglottal entrapment." DDSP is a complete separation of the soft palate seal at the base of the epiglottis. When this happens to a racehorse it is said to have ‘swallowed its tongue'. Such a horse ‘gurgles’, ‘chokes-up’ and is incapable of continuing to race because of suffocation. ‘Roaring’ and DDSP also follow from the horse seeking to evade the bit by retracting the tip of its tongue behind the bit. In this situation it is the root of the tongue that pushes the soft palate up. Exposure of the oropharynx to the drag of the inspiratory vacuum," he explains, "is the cause of epiglottal entrapment."

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Who_Needs_Bits.pdf​Yes, I think it is all hogwash. I've looked at thousands of photos of my horses and haven't seen the "lip seal" broken - except when they are eating, which they do regularly while trail riding with a bit in their mouth.








​ 
Studies have measured swallowing by horses exercising with and without a bit and found no difference.

And just as humans can smoke a cigar without trying to eat it, a horse can hold a bit in its mouth without thinking "DINNER!" - although my horse obviously sees no conflict, either.

Like a lot of psuedo-science, it defies what I see happening in my life. When I went on a low-fat diet, I gained weight. When I stopped worrying about "fat" and ate things I ate as a kid, my portions got smaller and I lost 25 lbs. So who do I believe - the government or my body? The idea that bits interfere with a horse's running fast conflicts with uncounted of millions of horses running fast with a bit in their mouth. But go on YT & there are lots of videos about how any bit is cruel.

The point of the picture of Mia was how freely a curb bit rotates in the mouth prior to the curb strap tightening. If one does the math, pulling my favorite Billy Allen curb thru 45 degrees of rotation results in the bit rising 0.6 inches in the mouth. Then the curb strap locks the shank in place, and it can rise no more (unlike a gag). Because curb bits sag less in the mouth than snaffles do, I generally lower them one hole from what I use with a snaffle - so 1" divided by two sides equals a half inch lower at the start point. Raise that 0.6 inches, and it stops lifting 0.1" above where a snaffle hangs at rest without any reins.

That is why, then the split rein slid on her neck, it could rotate the cheeks far enough to engage the curb strap. That period of initial rotation is VERY free in a horse's mouth - pressure free. For the most part, the bit is just rotating.

But the horse can easily FEEL that rotation. The mouthpiece rotating in the mouth, and the shank rotating next to the face gives very obvious cues to the horse even before any pressure is applied. That is why I believe a well used curb bit is gentler than a sidepull. To cue with a sidepull halter, I have to pull on the horse's face. But to cue with a curb bit, I can rotate the mouthpiece without applying pressure to it.

And as long as one does not snatch on the reins, the horse will ALWAYS get the exact same warning. It is built into the bit's design. In flying jets, recovering from a dive, the dive recovery tables were based on the pilot pulling hard enough on the stick to create a 4 "G" pull in 2 seconds. An excellent pilot told me that was "stick rate input" - you don't jerk on the stick or you can over-G the aircraft. You adjust your "stick rate input" so that you get a smooth increase in pressure to 4 Gs over 2 seconds.

"Rein rate input" applies to riding. If you jerk on the reins, the horse has no warning. The horse cannot do what you want before there is a lot of pressure in the mouth because you haven't given him a chance to respond. That is where the hands come in. If the bit is the correct design (with a 45 deg bend for a horse who carries its face at 45 deg), and the curb strap is adjusted correctly, and the rider doesn't snatch on the reins, then the horse will ALWAYS have a very clear and obvious "signal" before pressure is applied. The horse chooses if she will obey before pressure is applied or after, but the horse will always get the choice.

That is why Mia was easy to transition to a curb bit as a greenish horse who did not stop well and didn't neck rein. The bit in the picture I posted is a well designed Billy Allen. The curb strap was adjusted properly, to allow 45-60 deg of rotation before tightening. And I didn't snatch on the reins. Thus Mia always had a choice - obey before pressure, or obey after pressure. Being a practical animal, she normally started to obey before pressure - a light mouth. Being a strong-willed and independent horse, she sometimes would try to insist on getting her own way. But unlike the snaffle, she never figured out a way to avoid the curb bit - and eventually she learned there was no reason to.

That is why I disagree with the idea that a horse needs to be perfect in a snaffle before moving them into a curb. Used right, a curb actually is a good training device for softness.

So why not use it with Bandit now? Because while Mia's fear reaction was bolting, Bandit's fear reaction is spinning and moving sideways - and a snaffle is a good bit for lateral control. Mia is now a brood mare in northern Arizona, and Bandit...well, he is doing less spinning and twisting after 6 months than he did when he arrived. Curb bits just are not a good choice for working a horse who tries to spin out from under you instead of turn and leap away. But when he is calmer and more confident, I want to transition him to a curb - for gentleness.

Sorry for the long post. If I rode English, and wanted constant contact, I'd probably avoid curb bits. Curb bits work great with a style of riding that wants to minimize contact, as I do. I never want to apply a cue inside the mouth if I can do so outside the mouth. Thus what I was taught for western riding - "Seat, Leg, Reins (if needed)". And with reins? Against the neck, then pull if needed. Always give the horse a chance to obey at the light cue before applying a stronger one, and always stay outside the mouth unless the horse insists you climb inside...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree with most of your points, BSMS, and you already know where we differ!
Far as Dr Cook, I don't take anything he says as being correct, esp when applied to the way a curb , or even a snaffle, should be used, western.
His study , far as touted mouth damage, was done on race horses and polo horses-both ridden with lots of contact. Sure, polo ponies are ridden one handed, but also with some severe bits and tiedowns-much like many gymkana horses (won't go there right now! )


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also wanted to comment on your point, BMSM, that you seem to find much more written English, versus western training principles.
This is of course, due tot he fact that English riding has a much longer history, going back to some of the great masters in horsemanship, that you often refer to
Western riding evolved in the 'new world', with a traditional training system implemented in the Vaquero training method, which in itself had a lot of basics for the "classical horsemanship of the Old World
Newer bits evolved in training programs, that produced a horse up in the bridle in less time then to create a Spade bit horse, and these training programs in turn, were created when traditional type ranch work became show ring type competitions, with finesse added and higher degree of difficulty, which not necessarily reflected practical ranch work
If you look into some of these reining programs, ect, you will see that western riders don't just all get on and just ride.
Many recreational riders do migrate towards riding western, and it is then quite true, many do just get on and ride, probably more than those that chose to start riding English, as there seems to be more of a mind set to take formal lessons, so I do agree with you, in a great part, far as that 'total picture'


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I can find a dozen excellent books on English riding written in the last 50 years. I've only found one on western riding that I would recommend, and even it is only OK.

Not many folks jump on a horse and start riding with a spade bit. I hope! But many western riders don't show or compete, and a great many of them do learn by riding. In the area where I live, I can't think of anyone I'd recommend as a riding instructor.

If someone wants to compete - be it barrel racing, western pleasure or reining - then they are likely to seek out instruction. They probably NEED to in order to be competitive. But most of the ranchers I've known learned a little from their Dad or Grandad, then just spent a lot of hours in the saddle...with an occasional comment from Granddad, if they are lucky.

That isn't all bad. I've got a book by a guy writing from a very "English" perspective (although he was German), but he wrote,"It is the horse which is undoubtedly the best and only master of the art of giving the rider a sense of feel. Patiently and untiringly it can tell its rider where he is going wrong. One has only to interpret its reactions and make corresponding corrections....This example should bring home to the reader the importance of taking note of what may seem trivial and not leaving it to the instructor to discover all the problems. Feeling will only be learned by the person who _uses his brain_ and interprets what he feels. Applying this, the rider himself is the best judge of whether he as learned to 'go with the horse's movements', for he should _feel_ himself bumping about in the saddle and can form a judgment as tho whether he can remedy it." - Riding Logic, W. Museler, 1933, 5th edition 1983, underlining mine but italics his.​One of the things I appreciate about Daniel is he brings detailed analysis to his riding. His videos are not a repeating of what can be found easily anywhere because he isn't just repeating common mantras like a parrot. Riding is an art, but it is an art founded on mechanics. And the horse can tell us if we are using the right mechanics, IF WE LISTEN.

Another of my favorite quotes on riding:"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago. I can recall my astonishment, when I first began to collect books on the techniques of riding, at finding, in books written two or three centuries ago, minute descriptions of "discoveries" that I had made for myself only after a long period of trial and error...Once we become interested in learning about riding, and are not content to repeat interminably the same errors, there is much that we can learn." - William Steinkraus, Riding and Jumping, 1961.​"too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago"

Well, I started when I was old, so I cannot afford to just get on and ride until I learn by trial and error. But much of what is in print, and far more of what is on YouTube, is utter rubbish. If someone can't explain WHY they think X, I tend to discount X...because too often X is BS. That is why it is so nice to see someone discuss the mechanics of why X works.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Couldn't agree with you more! Unusual,eh?
I myself can testify as to first learning to ride through the trial and error method , when I was young
I came from a non horsey background, and when I was young, no internet, clinics or other great horseman around (that I was exposed to, had access to ), so just learned to ride by the seat of my pants!
My horse training endeavors even started that way!
When I moved out west,a t the tender age of 22, newly graduated as a lab tech, I knew I wanted a horse again, so was told by a fellow tech, of this great 'green broke' horse in the small town of Black Diamond
Yes, I had ridden that spoiled anglo arab stud that my practical non horsey step Dad had bought me, but really had no idea of what 'green broke meant'
I drove out after work, and watched this old cowboy get on this horse, in the back of a dark big shed, and bought him, without getting on him, or even seen him ridden. $200 bucks. Went and bought a saddle for $250
This new 'friend' and fellow tech, told me to use a 'cowboy snaffle' to train this horse (ie, a long shanked broken mouth curb ) 
Now, you will really get a laugh, concerning how ignorant I was! I was not told that the bit needed a curb strap, until a month or so later, some cowboy took pity, and filled me in
THis was about the time I met my husband. and I thus took him out with me the following weekend to see my new horse
I knew nothing about ground work, how to check a colt around, getting on, ect, so that young horse promptly bucked me off in the manure pile
Years later, my hubby had to tell me how hard it had been for him not to laugh!
Anyway, out of sheer determination, plus the forgiving nature of horses, I did get Tonka well broke, tot he point I rode him into Calgary, had him spend the night in future in laws back yard, then rode him in the Calgary Stampede
Life then happened, work wise, and I sold Tonka, vowing not to have horse again, until we had our own land. Took ten years, where i just borrowed rides, rented horses out west, ect
So, I was in my thirties, and had never taken a clinic, nor shown a horse.
Then, a friend's sister , who was into showing Paints, invited me along to a clinic, and I became 'hooked', on learning, esp as I decided to raise horses and could not afford to send them out for training
I thus had to learn to train those horses, and to become competitive showing against pros, at least at the regional breed level
So, as you read some of my posts, don'at assume that I did not start much like you, or even with way less more formal training-I just started younger!
I just wish I now had the body I used to have, combined with what I have learned over the years. Unfortunately, life does not happen that way!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Couldn't agree with you more! Unusual,eh?...


Don't you know how hard it hurts when I fall out of my chair in shock? My wife came running in when she heard me gasping, "Struck by lightning! Struck by lightning!"

But a great story! Thanks for the laughs - and you have my sympathy.

I actually think there are people who listen to their horse and people who don't and won't. Lessons from a good instructor make it easier to listen to the horse and improve. They aren't in conflict at all. It just can be hard to find a good instructor...and good instructors probably find it hard to find good students.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, you should read some of our first horse packing adventures, and you will really have some good laughs!
Actually, I did write one or two up, and even had them published in a local horse mag


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

DanielDauphin said:


> i describe the point you are trying to make here as "Paralysis by Analysis." Whoever told you that obviously has a strong prednisone with little to no actual experience with those bits. It is as simple as described in the video. I easily have hundreds of horses and God only knows how manat hours of actual experience using those bits and have never seen what you are proposing happen.


Correction ports are kind of ugly. Lots of them have sharp squared off corners on the port... The only kind I've ever used is this one, on my good heading horse.

And this one on one of my good ranch horses:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRyVliIaP6E
Here's a video of one in a skull, with a tongue and palate. The maker of the video is a little bit over the top sometimes, but mechanics is mechanics. It's just a pelham.... but its not hard to imagine what a 6-7" shank on that baby would do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that video shows a curb with short straight up and down shanks, much like that true TT, which allows very little signal time before that bit engages, plus if you ride a horse, applying that much pull on a bit with that design, yup, it is going to be severe.
If you are going to ride like that, use a bittless bridle!
Surely, you don't ride in a curb in that manner, pulling the shanks like that!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Anyone who thinks "short shank = mild" knows nothing about leverage. But her "mechanics" are wrong in other areas too. In reality, based on X-rays of real horses, the port can be up to 2-2.5" tall without it coming into contact with the palate. That comes from a vet who works on equine dentistry, and who was the source of some of the X-rays I posted earlier.

In a different video, she repeats the nutcracker myth - that it A. refers to the bit poking the roof of the mouth, and B. that it actually does so with a snaffle. In reality, the single joint snaffle, pulled hard, descends in to the tongue more than it pokes up, so it does not poke the roof of the mouth. That is per X-rays done by Hillary Clayton.

The real nutcracker effect of a single joint snaffle does what nutcrackers do - crush. It comes when the metal in the bit crushes the cheek against the molars of the horse, which can bruise or even lacerate the inner cheek and cause a great deal of pain.

In a real mouth, the tongue is a muscle covers with saliva. It does not act the way a thin, dry piece of rubber does. I cannot say if the tongue gets squeezed or damaged by certain shapes of ports. I've seen no data and own no bits like that to experiment with. But her basic analysis is based on a false mechanical mouth. It also allows for no response by the horse.

There are a lot of bits I wouldn't allow in my horse's mouth, but there are very few a good rider could not use without hurting the horse. Unhappily, bits can be bought by anyone.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

BSMS is pretty much spot on. Not to be critical of someone else's video, but they should maybe understand things fully and correctly before teaching the public. 
A bit is inanimate. The horse 'a mouth is not. A horse can quickly pull it's tongue back and out from under any bit if the rider over handles them and hurts them. Sadly there's a multimillion dollar industry built on providing miracle fixes and gimmicks, when the horse is plainly telling you that YOU are the problem.
Thus, the reason for these videos...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bottom line, I do agree that it would be nice, if there was some way to govern as to which bits are used by whom, and also to evaluate if a particular horse is ready to be ridden in that bit
Unfortunately, anyone can go into a tack store and select a bit, and use it on a horse that does not have the foundation to be ridden in that bit.
This is one of the main reasons a horse is declared to 'hate bits', have too soft of a mouth, to give reasons for such behavior as gaping mouth, resistant face and poll, refusing any bit contact, ect, ect.
In most cases, it is caused by a horse with an un educated mouth, ridden by someone lacking feel, and often with someone trying to ride a 'board; having developed no body softness, and riding mainly off the hands, versus correct use of legs


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi Daniel, this is going to be long. But it was a long video!

FIRST, what was absolutely new to me:
1) The ratio between purchase and shank. The pictures made that pretty clear.

2) That horses are expected to "suck" the curb with a closed mouth. This lends support to trainers who start bitting with the snaffle set low, to teach the colt to hold the bit.

_Thought_: This is in contrast to most English riding ideals, that a horse should chew the bit with a relaxed jaw. I understand your hatred of "dressage" --- but I think you're targeting competitive dressage, not its classical principles. A double bridle can certainly be contradictory, and I think it's telling that rules are being changed about requiring the double bridle in advanced dressage competition. The tip-top of dressage riding would be riding with one hand, on a curb with a draped rein. In this case, I believe the bit would be more of a traditional dressing, than necessary.

3) The bit balance was entirely new to me.

SECOND, What I didn't like:
1) The spade bit! I still think it's a result of man's (or woman's) arrogance. If a horse is so submissive and well-trained that he can tolerate that horrible mess, then *he doesn't need it*. I'm much more impressed by bridleless riding than a horse working under a threat such as a spade.

2) Which brings me to the purpose of the bit: what it's expected to do. I think it's for communication. You mention the square-shaped port as an aid to helping or fixing a horse that drops a shoulder. But shouldn't a trainer work on _why_ the shoulder is dropped? In another thread, bsms reveals that problems in crookedness stemmed from a physical problem. Putting a certain bit on him, to force him, through pain, to move differently, would not only be cruel, but deceptive, certainly not what a thinking rider wants.

To put a bit on to get a certain "frame" follows the same reasoning. A horse's position should follow from what is necessary to the task he is doing, at that time.

I also think that the palate is a very sensitive a part of the mouth, and should be protected from any harm or pressures whatsoever.

THIRD: some questions and comments:
1) I would have liked to see more real bits shown, instead of just drawn. Perhaps showing the head position of the same horse, in differently balanced bits.

2) Tongue relief: I still don't get it. How can a port half the width of the tongue offer relief? I've never heard of the tongue knot, and would like a little more evidence that it exists.

3) There might be more discussion on the broken-mouth bits like the Argentine you show. I'm still not sure why a recent clinician hates the Tom Thumb so much, which looks so similar to the Argentine. She said it was because it had "no release." 

I thank you for the video! It's really made me think about things that I usually ignore. Personally, I've only started looking into Western stuff because one of my horses looks very Western. I first got a grazing bit for her, but it looks so severe (!) and have ended up using an Argentine, which I use as a snaffle most of the time. I'm still not quite sure of the different effect it has _on her_ when I switch the rein to the curb part, except that the curb strap is engaged.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Beling said:


> Hi Daniel, this is going to be long. But it was a long video!
> 
> FIRST, what was absolutely new to me:
> 1) The ratio between purchase and shank. The pictures made that pretty clear.
> ...


As to severity, always remember that it boils down to usage. If you ride a curb with lots of contact like you would an English snaffle, you'd ruin most any horse. Most people, if given a chainsaw, would soon maim themselves. Others could carve a delicate flower from a tree stump. It isn't up to the chainsaw how it's used! I thank you for your time and thoughts and I certainly hope my replies do not come off as being confrontational. I am just trying to explain what I apparently did a poor job of getting across in the video.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I also replied to the dressage part early on in that last post but got a call while typing and it is gone.
So, let me leave no doubt that I have zero hatred of dressage. I am more a student of dressage than most of you would guess. It is simply a discipline and a very old one. It has merits, myths, masters, and idiots just like any other discipline. If I give off the impression of not respecting English riding, that is a false impression. My first riding job was riding English. I have more hours in an English saddle than most on this forum. I still ride English to this day. I HAVE NOT, HOWEVER, EVER WORN TIGHT PANTS!!! I want to be clear on that too.
In all seriousness, I bring up those topics to try and relate to all riders. English and Western are fruits of the same tree. Good English and Good Western have much more in common than different. Anyone who disagrees is showing how little they truly understand about either. Doma Classical and Doma Vaquera, Iberian horses, bosals, spade bits, and strapping the hide of one dead animal to the back of another all have the same roots.
Never forget that Dressage was started SOLELY to preserve the horsemanship skills necessary to ride into battle on a faithful steed. That history is a helluva lot more closely reflected by La Garrocha, riding a Spade bit horse in one hand, and hard stops and turns on the outside hind, rather than rollkur, what is known as Hunt seat equitation, and barefoot and bitless. 
The problem is that people view history as the fads of their lifetime, when, in fact, the fads you think of as " standard" are merely the last few minutes of a very long day.
When you see a steed ridden by a night into battle, when you ponder the beginnings of the Iberian horses, your perspective changes a lot, or it should.

Also, I know quite a few who want one handed riding, self carriage, and no double bridles back in dressage, but this is the first I have heard of actual changes. I hope that's true!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, dressage has almost nothing to do with the military. It is rooted in the Italian Renaissance, and parties thrown by incredibly wealthy people. For reference, see VS Littauer's "The Development of Modern Riding". He details the history, including quotes from the original books by the 'masters' - at least one of whom, Baucher, refused to ride outdoors! The chapter in Xenophon that most closely discusses what came to be dressage was intended for nobles riding for show:"But possibly you are not content with a horse serviceable for war. You want to find him him a showy, attractive animal, with a certain grandeur of bearing. 

If so, you must abstain from pulling at his mouth with the bit, or applying the spur and whip—methods commonly adopted by people with a view to a fine effect, though, as a matter of fact, they thereby achieve the very opposite of what they are aiming at...

...On the contrary, let the horse be taught to be ridden on a loose bridle, and to hold his head high and arch his neck, and you will practically be making him perform the very acts which he himself delights or rather exults in; and the best proof of the pleasure which he takes is, that when he is let loose with other horses, and more particularly with mares, you will see him rear his head aloft to the full height, and arch his neck with nervous vigour, pawing the air with pliant legs and waving his tail on high. 

By training him to adopt the very airs and graces which he naturally assumes when showing off to best advantage, you have got what you are aiming at—a horse that delights in being ridden, a splendid and showy animal, the joy of all beholders. ..

...But now, supposing when his fire is thus kindled you give him the rein, the effect is instantaneous. Under the pleasurable sense of freedom, thanks to the relaxation of the bit, with stately bearing and legs pliantly moving he dashes forward in his pride, in every respect imitating the airs and graces of a horse approaching other horses. 

Listen to the epithets with which spectators will describe the type of horse: the noble animal! and what willingness to work, what paces, what a spirit and what mettle; how proudly he bears himself - a joy at once, and yet a terror to behold. "

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1176/1176-h/1176-h.htm​"_Unfortunately, reality often differs. A signifigant portion of my business has always been problem horses. It is just plain an unsexy, not politically correct fact of life that some behaviors need to be discouraged._"

Today, riding Bandit, he decided we were not going past a certain trash can. Mia was more honest by nature. When she balked, it was because she was AFRAID!!!! Bandit will sometimes do so out of genuine fear, but I'm learning he is much less honest about it than Mia was. There was no way he was genuinely afraid today.

So I urged him on, and when he spun...we spun. And every spin he gave to turn away was followed immediately by my spinning him, not gently, with the help of the bit - so we kept ending up facing the thing he didn't want to pass. I'm not sure how many spins we did. We did some sideways hopping, too. Then we passed it. Once past, he decided to take off...and with help from the bit, we did circles until his neck was level. Then we stopped, looked at it, then I told him to turn and we WALKED away.

In an ideal world, all I would need would be communication. With the horses I've owned, though, sometimes it boils down to who is going to make the decisions - the horse or the rider. Bandit will never be ready for a spade bit because I never will be. He isn't ready for a curb bit, in part because we sometimes have these heated discussions, and a simple snaffle allows me to get in his mouth without damaging it.

Maybe a horse-eating trash can would liven up a dressage or western pleasure test. But then, a part of being competitive in those sports is having a horse who is submissive, willing and cooperative BEFORE entering the ring! In truth, I enjoyed today's ride. It was a little bit of work, but it matched my personality and where I am at right now as a rider.

However, it would have been a disaster if I had 'bitted up' first. One of my favorite writers on training a horse wrote:"Quiet Persistence

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.

We persist. We quietly persist with our demands.

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse without punishing him." - Tom Roberts
​I couldn't force Bandit to go past the trash can, but I could limit his options for NOT going past. But to do that, I needed something that provided some degree of control - not communication, but control - but not pain. Because pain would have taught him the opposite of what I wanted. It would have turned rebelliousness into fear, and a scared horse doesn't learn squat.

Tom Roberts also wrote:"Encourage and discourage is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it can include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:

“That will profit you – that will profit you not.”

These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.

“To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment."​"_That will profit you not_" is an approach that cannot be done with a bit that punishes, and my riding skill doesn't allow me to be "soft" while spinning around on top of a horse. A skilled rider can punish effectively, but the cavalry manual has it pegged for me:"Most of the faults committed by the horse are due to his ignorance and lack of training, or to the insufficiency of the means employed by the rider. In either case, severity becomes an injustice and causes such harmful results that it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly."​In the end, the right bit comes at the intersection of horse, rider and training goals. A Billy Allen curb is at the upper end of THIS rider's ability. With Mia, it made sense. With Bandit, it would not. Right now, a simple snaffle is at the upper end of Bandit's ability. And it matches our training goals - for now. But I am working for a day when I can ride him with slack reins, a Billy Allen curb...and control.

Bandit doesn't know it, but Mia's old bit is hanging on the wall - a goal to aspire to:








​


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

So, Xenophon (Greek) and Dressage (French) are really Italian? Lol
"Anyone of nobility in that day would have been on a horse in battle. Preserving those skills was the point of dressage. It was, and remains, a sport for those with means." - Daniel Dauphin

And, yes, those bits with "bite" are not for every rider, horse, or situation. A twisted wire snaffle would be on that list too.

Also, remember when you quote those masters, other things they knew, like the earth was flat and the center of the universe, only stallions were fit to ride, sicknesses in horses were caused by spirits, and owning people was cool...

While I respect, learn from, and appreciate lots of old writings, they must be taken in with consideration. Frankly, I am often most surprised with how unimpressed I am with some of that old stuff when I read it. Xenophon was wrong about lots of stuff...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

For a good understand of historic dressage as exercises to develop horses for a variety of purposes, you might read _École de Cavalerie written by _
François Robichon de la Guérinière in the early 18th Century and published in an English translation by Xenophon Press.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, you are starting to sound more and more like a rider who has learned and evolved!
I love the following thought:

'In an ideal world, all I would need would be communication. With the horses I've owned, though, sometimes it boils down to who is going to make the decisions - the horse or the rider. Bandit will never be ready for a spade bit because I never will be. He isn't ready for a curb bit, in part because we sometimes have these heated discussions, and a simple snaffle allows me to get in his mouth without damaging it.'

Yes, a problem horse, most times, needs to go right back to a plain snaffle!

All horses need that type of positive riding at times, esp before they reach the point that communication , through repeated leadership, established response, limits any need for those discussions.
I read somewhere, I think a letter by Ed Cornel on Vaquero horsemanship, where those horses in training, to eventuality becoming Spade bit horses, were used for ranch work during that development
He stated , that even when that horse was up in the Spade, it was common for many of those Vaqueros to have a snaffle tied on to the back of their saddle, in case they had to take hold of that horse, working cattle


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia was the horse I learned to ride on, but she was a 1% horse. Now that I'm riding Bandit, I'm beginning to understand things that didn't make sense before because they didn't apply to Mia - and I didn't understand how unusual Mia was because I had no frame of reference for her.

Xenophon rode in a very different day. IIRC, they rode without saddles, without pants and without underwear. That by itself tells me I may not want to follow him too closely!

Perhaps the most amazing bit of riding advice I've seen was cited by VS Littauer. It dates to 1560:"Let a footman stand behind you with a shrewd cat tied at the one end of a long pole, with hir bellie upward, so as she may have hir mouth and clawes at libertie; and when your horse doth stai or goe backward, let him thrust the cat betwixt his thighs, so as she may scratch and bite him, sometimes by the thighs, sometimes by the rumpe...

and let the footman and all the standers-by threaten the horse with a terrible noise, and you shall see it will make him go as you will have him, and on so doing be ready to make much of him [YGBSM! You think?]. Also, the shrill crie of a hedgehog being strait tied by the foot under the horse's taile is a reminder of like force, which was proved by the Master Vincentio Respino a Neapolitan, in such sort, *as he had much ado afterward to keepe him from the contrarie vice of running awaie*. [I'll bet!] The like correction also may be given with a whelpe, or some other loud-crieing and biting beast, being tied to the crupper, so he may hang downe under the horse's taile..."​I think it is safe to say that while some of my advice on this forum may be questionable, worse has been put into print! As much as I love history and old books on riding, one does need to be selective about which advice to follow - though I don't doubt having your footmen equipped with "_a shrewd cat tied at the one end of a long pole_" would get a horse to go forward! However, Daniel or Smilie might have better advice...:wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

One can also look at some of those bits used in the past, including those with claws that dug into the cheeks
Look at some of the jumping positions in some old military pictures, with the rider sitting way behind the balance of the horse
While I find some of the riding history interesting, I am also not of the mind set that everything steeped in tradition is best, and that horsemanship has regressed, instead of advanced, like anything else, from medicine to travel

Tradition sometimes is just something that was always done in a particular manner, and never questioned.
I know darn well we have advanced in veterinary medicine, horse nutrition, shoing options,and so, to me it seems rather narrow minded to think horsemanship from the past was better, or the ultimate in horsemanship

Here is a story , centered around tradition. A new bride re -called the wonderful baked good that her grandmother had always made. She also re called that the pans were black. She thus searched all over for those pans, and finally asked her grandmother where those pans had come from. Well, her grandmother replied, those pans were not black when they were new, but turned that way, baking in the wood stove oven.
It is a known fact that horses, during the Korean and world War, were used up not just by cannon fire, but that many were declared un sound, due to back problems from bad fitting saddles
No, just referring back to those 'Masters' or military history, as the ultimate truth in horsemanship, means little to me


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

There has always been diversity in riding equipment as well as techniques. The period in which the techniques were employed is not as important as the techniques themselves. 

A broad study of techniques both past and present provides a student a larger knowledge base from which to work. By ignoring either, one limits himself. Certain practices tend to become fads which soon become the norm. Other practices may become lost unless there are those who preserve them. If lost, someone may eventually be required to "re-invent the wheel".

Some trainers like Monte Roberts claim to have invented new techniques from personal observation and experimentation. But a student of history will recognize these techniques as similar to practices employed decades, if not centuries, before by other horsemen.

A study of history will also reveal that cavalry practices and equipment varied with the times and with the exigencies of war. The U.S. Army, for example, stopped using the double bridle during the Civil War because there was no longer time to train either horse or rider in their proper use. More severe bits that provided better "control" became the norm. Proper care was also limited during this time. If I remember the quartermaster reports correctly, troopers of some forces averaged going through five horses in one year. Most losses were due to logistic difficulties and the inability to provide proper nutrition and, secondly, medical care.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ...A broad study of techniques both past and present provides a student a larger knowledge base from which to work. By ignoring either, one limits himself. Certain practices tend to become fads which soon become the norm. Other practices may become lost unless there are those who preserve them. If lost, someone may eventually be required to "re-invent the wheel"....


This.

I would never accept some technique BECAUSE it is old, but I would never REJECT one either. I find the idea that modern man is at the pinnacle of riding laughable. I've had people on this forum tell me they would never "waste time" reading a book on riding written before 2000! Why? Because people are only now starting to understand horses!

The truth is that even when that ridiculous training advice was given in the 1500s, there were many other men who rode while hunting, or who covered 40-50 miles a day because that was what a horse was for - to cover ground. 

Caprilli is generally credited with 'inventing' the forward seat, but I've seen 2500 year old paintings of people using the forward seat. Consider this painting by Rembrandt in 1655:








​ 
http://collections.frick.org/view/objects/asitem/items$0040:239​ 
I'd like to see him change his bit, and give some more slack, but lots of western riders, and hunt seat riders, could see themselves in this painting. That is darn close (position, not clothing) to how I rode Bandit in my Australian saddle yesterday! Although if I could find garb like that, it would give some pizazz to my riding! Just give the dude some bifocals, more wrinkles on the face and a bit more belly...

This one comes from around 1810:








​ 
They were obviously using a long-legged version of a forward seat. Been there, done that - although I didn't bob poor Mia's tail:








​
Many would criticize them for having toes down. But the stirrups of the day were polished metal, and the boots smooth leather. I tried taking the rubber insert out of my English stirrups, pulling on my leather soled Tony Lamas, and going for a ride. Slicker than snot on a doorknob! If I tried for 'heels down', the stirrups popped off my foot like they were shot from a gun!

And meanwhile, riders back then actually RODE horses. John Adams, one of our more nonathletic Presidents, was in his 70s when he wrote Thomas Jefferson and lamented that while riding horses was good exercise, age was forcing him to limit his rides to 10-20 miles. A lot of modern recreational riders call that 'an endurance ride'...

One cavalryman, surrounded by his enemies, believed he was seconds from death. He wrote he leaned forward and kissed his horse goodbye. He thought it was the last act in his life...but his horse took matters into his own four hooves, and moments later bolted thru the surrounding enemy and carried his rider to safety some miles away. But a man who believes he is seconds away from death, who responds by kissing his horse goodbye, doesn't view his horse as a machine.

As with anything, it is up to the individual to separate the wheat from the chaff. Horsemanship in the past wasn't always better, but when I watch a video of modern horse sports...well, change isn't always progress, so to speak.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

JUst to be clear, I am in no way dis counting horsemanship from the past, and, just like taking the best from each clinic you attend, developing your won unique program, I think blending the best from the past with the present , is also a good practice , far as riding.
What I was trying to point out, I do not accept just being given some reference to some past famous classical or military horseman, and then accept it as the holy Grail, never questioning any of those principles or methods, but learning/absorbing those that make sense and those that compliment GOOD modern horse training
I believe it was Sheila Veridan, that wrote in one article, that while working cowhorse training today, retains the traditional Vaquero method, it is kinder in many aspects.
The past is something to build upon, which some great horsemanship principles from the apst certainly are, and many remaining true today, HOWEVER one needs to keep an open mind, and build on that past foundation, rather than just dwelling on it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just thought I would share what I think is quite a nice curb for trail riding, as my horses , that are out of the snaffle love just packing it
Sorry that it is hanging a bit crooked, just took pic on a noon break


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I usually sneak on this forum at work. No sound.. so I cannot watch the video here and get anything out of it. Later. At home. If the stars align (I get home and the thousand things I need to do PLUS spending time listening to my Mom who has had no one to talk to all day PLUS spending a few minutes on dog training cut into everything else). 

I will also take a photo of the bit I have that my horses graduated to when I switched from English to Western years back. I never used a lot of different bits. Started in a Bosal with a Mecate or a double rope side pull. Graduated to a half breed then to a sweet iron loose ring snaffle and went from there depending on the discipline. Some stayed in that snaffle.. others went to the curb bit. A couple went to a full bridle but never full time in a full bridle. I also used a Mullen mouth Pelham and two reins for Fox Hunting etc.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A half breed is a pretty advanced bit, one used at times, before, or instead of a Spade, so how did you 'advance'from a Half Breed to a snaffle? Progression is backwards, with gaps in between
Of course, bits you use, vary as to discipline, but never to force any type of carriage etc, but rather for a very fine tuning, only needed when competing at upper end, where very slightly different nuisances , when all the horses are performing well, make that tiny bit of difference
If you are not showing, sure , you can keep a horse in a snaffle forever , western, if he has that good foundation
Showing dictates that a western horse be shown one handed, in a curb, after he is five
Since I only ride English on the flat, I just ride with a D ring snaffle, no matter what bit that horse is in western
A finished western pl horse, I usually ride in a Klapper with fixed shanks, as this creates that even signal on both sides,t o promote that very quiet head carriage , desired in western pl


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Thank you for the explanations. 

Bit purpose: I hear you! I feel those times when you do need to get firm, IS indeed communication, if in a big way. It is a little different from a passive bit-effect: for instance, a horse holding his head on the vertical. This might signal to a novice that he's "on the bit" or even, to some, that he's being "good" etc; when in fact he's merely in "neutral position." I'm not saying this is mean, or cruel, or even wrong, just remarking that it can be deceptive. Like putting a noseband on a horse to keep his mouth closed. Of what use, really, is that, except as a temporary fix for some occasion or other?

Interesting that you hold the tongue as most sensitive. (I'm thinking of my own mouth here.) The bars and palate are so close to bone/gristle, without the "resilience" of a fleshy tongue? I trust your experience, though. In my experience, the only tongue-holding I did was during a lesson with an NH trainer in dealing with a fussiness in handling my horse's mouth. But honestly, I didn't notice any tongue anatomy, just its sliminess. But it didn't seem particularly delicate either.

I like Smilie's bit with the wide port: it seems tongue-sized!

I'll be looking up the other videos about snaffles. Do you call jointed shanked bits snaffles? A recent clinician said ANYTHING with a shank and chain/strap was classed as a curb. I guess that's the first bit of confusion in bits! What's what? The shows accept anything with shanks as curbs. (Doesn't mean they're right, though.)

Thanks again for the informative vids.

(Note: "The art of riding is a Baroque art. The ideology is based on the Baroque view that the potential of random nature remains unfulfilled until man elevates it by cultivated design to the level of art. . ." Charles De Kunffy, _The Ethics and Passions of Dressage_)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Beling said:


> Thank you for the explanations.
> 
> Bit purpose: I hear you! I feel those times when you do need to get firm, IS indeed communication, if in a big way. It is a little different from a passive bit-effect: for instance, a horse holding his head on the vertical. This might signal to a novice that he's "on the bit" or even, to some, that he's being "good" etc; when in fact he's merely in "neutral position." I'm not saying this is mean, or cruel, or even wrong, just remarking that it can be deceptive. Like putting a noseband on a horse to keep his mouth closed. Of what use, really, is that, except as a temporary fix for some occasion or other?
> 
> ...


Yes, that terrible oxymoron, shanked snaffle!
It is of course, a curb, as it has leverage, and those that show esp, know that when the term, ;shanked snaffle is used, the bit is in reality a curb, and that term is just more convenient to describe a curb with a broken mouth piece, then to say a curb with a broken mouth piece, LOL!
Unfortunately, this creates lot of confusion with those not 'in' on this slang terminology, as I have seen posts of people thinking they are starting a horse in a snaffle, when in fact, it is a curb, and beginning show people, at open shows, thinking they can show in a snaffle bit class with that ;shanked 
snaffle"
Since most snaffle riding bits have a jointed mouth piece, many people then conclude that any bit with a jointed mouth is a snaffle, when in fact, it is not the mouth piece that defines a snaffle, but rather whether it has leverage or not. Any bit with shanks, has leverage, and is thus a curb


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To add a bit more, far as western curbs
The idea , and correct application of a curb, is for increased finesse, and not for control. The more 'bit' the greater the education of that horse should,be, and also that of the hands on that bit
You can also not compare that curb, being used English, with contact, the the way a curb should, be used correctly-western, on a loose rein, with various designs of a curb, influencing things like signal time ( the time a horse has to respond to uptake of the curb strap, before bit action comes into play )
For instance, the three following things increase signal time

_length of shanks
- loose jawed, versus fixed shanks
)angle of shanks, with those straight up and down shanks have least amount of signal time

Far as leverage, longer shanks have more leverage, thus on a greener horse, you sacrifice some signal time, using shorter shanks, in order to have less leverage

For events like reining, I prefer a curb with loose shanks, as it allows some 'play' with the reining hand, far as different signal on either side of the face

Some senior horses, I just kept in a jointed mouth curb, as that is what they preferred, while others liked the advance to a bit with a port
While I certainly agree that a well broke horse should ride in anything, including bittless, I also think that a well broke horse (western), that has no mouth issues, as in former bit abuse, should ride in a bit also,a nd when I see a western horse, past age five, 'stuck' in a snaffle, I think that horse lacks education.
The reason a western horse has to be shown one handed in a curb, after age five, is certainly not because he can't be controlled in a snaffle, but rather that he is expected to have the education that allows him to be ridden one handed, on a loose rein, in a curb, while he keeps correct body position, top line frame, rates speed, mainly off of seat and legs
The design then, of that curb, is based on slight nuisances of expectations in various disciplines, level of training that horse has, and the feel/experience the rider has, with his hands on those reins
You have to get past the idea of riding in these curbs, using constant contact


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie, 
I would disagree with several of your statements in that last post regarding the relationship between shank shape, shank angle, degree of leverage and signal time. At least I disagree with how I understood you to mean they work. 
I invite you to watch the video as well, as I took quite a bit of time to explain the mechanics vs some of those traditional views.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well. I will try and find that bit reference that I got those points from, as they were not just conclusions that I made on my own.
Maybe I did not explain well, but I will try and find those references, and then you can dispute them with the author


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

first, concerning loose jawed, versus fixed shanks, with link below this paragrah is from:
One last element to consider is the difference between a loose-jawed bit and a solid-jawed bit. This is how the shanks attach to the mouthpiece. A loose-jawed bit has shanks that swivel independently of the mouthpiece. This accomplishes several things:

First, signal is increased because there are more moving parts to cue the horse that a command is being asked as the rider pulls on the reins. The shanks move, signaling to the horse through lateral movements without necessarily engaging the mouthpiece.

A loose-jawed bit also makes it easier for the horse to differentiate between signals given from one side versus the other. Since the shanks move independently of one another, a rider can cue using single rein pulls to help a horse with lateral signals and movement. This can be a great advantage in young horses that are not yet neck-reining.

A solid-jawed bit moves in its entirety as one or both reins are pulled, requiring the horse to know what the rider is asking based on other signals being given simultaneously. However, with the bit being solid, there isn’t much movement, which might keep your horse quieter in the mouth, given that there’s little signal being inadvertently produced by the horse’s own physical action.

http://tcowboyarts.org/bit-structure-function/


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Shank length and signal time:

"The time it takes between the rein cue and the shank moving far enough to engage the curb strap is known as the “signal” time. If the shanks are adjusted at a proper angle (usually about 45 degrees), the horse will have time to realize that the shank is moving and prepare for the action before the bit is actually engaged. If properly trained, he will anticipate the request the moment the rider picks up the reins, and only leg or body aids will be needed to direct his movement. (See Signal)

A bit with a looser curb and a longer shank will have a longer “signal” time because there is more distance from reins to curb strap engagement – giving the horse longer to compute the next step. Additionally, when a bit is balanced so that its rein loops hang a little forward of center when not engaged by the reins, it takes just that fraction of a second longer for the reins to take up the slack, which lengthens the signal time. A bit balanced this way is an advantage for quick release of pressure and reliable neutral position. A bit is “balanced” if, when the reins are dropped, the bit immediately swings forward to its “home” or vertical position and releases the pressure. (see

From this link:

Curb Bit Basics | Horse-Pros.com


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And, lastly, shank angle + signal time

Additionally, the ratio between the lift and the shank length is critical to leverage. The larger the ratio (ie: 4:1), the more leverage is applied with less rein movement and the quicker the signal. Thus a bit with a small lift but long shanks has more leverage.

horse bit measurements

Pull distance is also important (illustration above). The further behind the center line the rein ring is located, the less severe is the leverage and the slower the signal.'

From this link-which has illustations that did not copy,far as shank angle and signal time

Bit Leverage | Horse-Pros.com


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Please discuss these references and what I am missing.
Sorry, can't watch all your video, as I don't have unlimited internet!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Far as leverage, longer shanks have more leverage..."

*Mechanical Advantage of Second Class Lever*
MA = d1 / d2









https://www.easycalculation.com/formulas/lever-mechanical-advantage-formula.html

The curb strap locks one end in place. Effort is applied at the far end of the sides. In between is where the load is applied to the mouth.

The Kimberwick bit I used to own had the same mechanical advantage as my 7.5" Billy Allen, with a total length (d1) about 3 times the purchase (d2).

The distance pulled is helpful to a newer rider, since we think in terms of how far we move our hands. For the horse, however, 45 deg of rotation will feel like 45 deg of rotation. The horse feels what is in its mouth, not what is at the far end of the side. It is easier, IMHO, to be gentle with a long shank curb bit than with a short shank curb bit, assuming the ratio remains the same - thus easier to be gentle with a 7.5" Billy Allen than a Kimberwicke. That was because I had to move my hand further to get the same degrees of rotation, and I (unlike my horse) felt the distance my hand moved.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From the linked website Smilie posted:

"The *“lift” affects the curb strap action*. The longer the “lift” the more exaggerated is the curb pressure and the more vertical the horse will hold his head."

Don't try telling that to Mia. She didn't know it. Thus the "lift" or purchase was longer in the Billy Allen than in the Kimberwick, but it did not in any way encourage her to carry her head in a vertical position:










I think they also are in error about "pull distance", which has an effect on balance but very little on leverage. It has some, but that discussion goes beyond what I think I can write in a couple of paragraphs. Reviewing the unit circle in trig would help.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie said:


> And, lastly, shank angle + signal time
> 
> Additionally, the ratio between the lift and the shank length is critical to leverage. The larger the ratio (ie: 4:1), the more leverage is applied with less rein movement and the quicker the signal. Thus a bit with a small lift but long shanks has more leverage.
> While they are correct on leverage, they are dead wrong on signal time. A lower leverage bit is faster, while having more leverage makes a bit act more slowly. This is clearly explained and illustrated in the first few minutes of the video.
> ...


I will check the link now, but I took no exception to the other posted statements.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The pull affects force based on the angle compared to where the reins are. If you hang a 50 lb weight from a tree limb, and pull on it with a rope going off to one side, the weight moves very easily when your rope is perpendicular to the hanging rope. But as you pull further and further to one side, your rope and the hanging rope start to form a straight line. You could pull with 1000 lbs of pressure, though, and not be able to pull it entirely straight.

When the reins form a 90 deg bend with the lower arm with the curb strap tight, your force is applied most efficiently to rotating the arm. As the lower arm gets closer to making a straight line with the reins, pulling applies less rotational force to the arm.

However, if the bit is balanced, then a horse with a vertical head will be using a bit with straight sides. A 45 deg rotation to tighten the curb strap places the arm at a 45 deg to the ground, and the rider has a good angle of pull with the reins. If your horse carries her head at 45 deg, and your bit arms have a 45 deg bend, it will still be neutral - the rein ends will hand directly below the mouthpiece. So a 45 deg rotation will once again place the arm at a 45 deg angle to the ground, and the rider will have the same angle of pull he had with a vertical head & straight bit.










In the case of the bit at the far right, 45 deg of rotation would result in the end of the side being in almost a straight line with the rein. While leverage remains the same, the amount of force a rider can apply to rotate the bit would be nil. So in that sense it would apply less force to the horse's mouth, since the rider would have no way to rotate the bit further with the reins unless he climbs on to the horse's neck.

Sorry I'm not clearer, but it is hard to describe in writing.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> "Far as leverage, longer shanks have more leverage..."
> 
> *Mechanical Advantage of Second Class Lever*
> MA = d1 / d2
> ...


Yes, longer shanks have more leverage, and also more signal time


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Why amateurs shouldn't try drawing...:icon_rolleyes:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Yes, longer shanks have more leverage, and also more signal time


No. Longer shanks do NOT have more leverage. Length does not control leverage. The RATIO of lengths controls leverage.

Longer shanks give more 'signal time' to the rider, but the horse (I think) feels the same rotation. He doesn't know how far you've moved your hand to get 45 deg of rotation to tighten the curb strap. I suspect rotation is rotation to the horse. It just feels different to the rider, which can be important.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bUt, if the shanks are at a 90 degree angle, then the uptake on the reins would be way less, until that curb strap engages, then if that angle was less-yes?
Looking at those diagrams, I really have not seen shanks as in that last picture, and I think there is some 'artistic licence to try and demonstrate a point
My high school physics is also not anywhere near your knowledge of physics.
I do know though, that a true tom thumb has all the features that make it a 'bad' bit, far as signal time and thus severity.
It has fixed shanks at 90 degrees, that are short, so the rein hand has to move very little until that curb strap engages


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The entire length of that shank, is shank length,right? The upper part is the purchase, and the lower part is the lever part of the shank.=right?
So yes, the ratio of the purchase to the level part of the shank determines severity

Thank you for making me think, and getting it clear in my mind

Here is the principle of acurb:

The shank[edit]
Main article: bit shank

A decorative fixed shank on a western Salinas-style curb bit
A curb bit is a leverage bit, meaning that it multiplies the pressure applied by the rider. Unlike a snaffle bit, which applies direct rein pressure from the rider's hand to the horse's mouth, the curb can amplify rein pressure several times over, depending on the length of the curb's bit shank. Shank sizes vary from the Tom Thumb (2 inches long) to more than 5 inches. The longer the bit shank, the more powerful its potential effect on the horse. For this reason, overall shank or cheek length, from the top of the cheek ring to the bottom of the rein ring, usually cannot exceed 8½ inches for most horse show disciplines.

Leverage principles[edit]

Bit shanks, such as those on this spade bit, work as a lever
Main article: Lever
The relation of the upper shank (purchase)—the shank length from the mouthpiece to the cheekpiece rings—and the lower shank or lever arm—the shank length from the mouthpiece to the lowest rein ring, is important in the severity of the bit. The standard curb bit has a 1½" cheek and a 4½" lower shank, thus producing a 1:3 ratio of cheek to lower shank, a 1:4 ratio of cheek to full shank, thus producing 3 lbs of pressure on the chin groove and 4 lbs of pressure on the horse's mouth for every 1 lb placed on the reins (3 and 4 newtons respectively for every newton).

Regardless of the ratio, the longer the shank, the less force is needed on the reins to provide a given amount of pressure on the mouth. So, if one were to apply 1 lb of pressure on the horse's mouth, a 2" shank would need more rein pressure than an 8" shank to provide the same effect.

A long lower shank in relation to the upper shank (or purchase) increases the leverage, and thus the pressure, on the curb groove and the bars of the mouth. A long upper shank in relation to the lower shank increases the pressure on the poll, but does not apply as much pressure on the bars of the mouth.

However, longer-shanked bits must rotate back further before applying pressure on the horse's mouth than shorter-shanked bits. Therefore, the horse has more warning in a long-shanked bit, allowing it to respond before any significant pressure is applied to its mouth, than it would in a shorter-shanked bit. In this way, a longer shank can allow better communication between horse and rider, without increasing severity. This is also directly dependent on the tightness of the curb chain.

Types[edit]
You will note, that the reference (Wikipedia ) does s state that the longer shank takes longer to rotate, thus gives more signal time. That is what I have always been told, so sticking to it!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

well, Mia should have had atalk with Smilie!
This bit has fixed shanks, that are pretty straight, and encouraged the desired head carriage


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you wish to see the bit, it is pictured on the second page of this link, on BOb Avila's bitology -

Reiner August 2015 Page 132


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie said:


> bUt, if the shanks are at a 90 degree angle, then the uptake on the reins would be way less, until that curb strap engages, then if that angle was less-yes?No. Rotation is rotation. Where the point of rotation begins is irrelevant. Again, not my opinion. Law of Physics.
> Looking at those diagrams, I really have not seen shanks as in that last picture, and I think there is some 'artistic licence to try and demonstrate a pointagreed
> My high school physics is also not anywhere near your knowledge of physics.
> I do know though, that a true tom thumb has all the features that make it a 'bad' bit, far as signal time and thus severity.
> It has fixed shanks at 90 degrees, that are short, so the rein hand has to move very little until that curb strap engages


I am no Tom Thumb fan, but it is it's typical leverage ratio, a low leverage ratio, and adjustment of the curb chain that determine this.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie,
I'm not trying to be a jerk here. This stuff is complicated and can get confusing. You certainly understand more than most. 
You seem to have stated and cited conflicting accounts here, so, signal time is longer for a HIGHER Leverage bit because it acts more slowly, assuming all other factors besides leverage are the same. A LOWER Leverage bit acts more quickly, and thus decreases signal time, assuming all other factors, like port height, remain unchanged.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

About to head out of town folks. If anyone else has a question, it'll be next week before I will respond.
I would ask that you watch the video. I took many hours putting the thoughts and facts together, shooting, editing and all that other jazz. Please don't expect me to spend more time defending points that I have already clearly explained the How and Why on when you didn't watch it. This is NOT solely directed at Smilie or intended as being offensive, insulting, or confrontational.

A note about Dogma: a principle or set of principles laid out by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

I don't expect you to just take MY WORD for it. That's why I explain my points, hopefully fully, clearly, logically, reasonably, and to your satisfaction. So, if you want to argue a point with me, be able to explain and discuss the how and why. Regurgitating "something from the internet" or "well I've always heard it this way", or "an old master said it" does not make your point. It simply proves that you don't actually understand your own point and are overly relying on a single source that may well be wrong or you may have misunderstood.
Think for yourself! Ask good questions and be respectful about it. You just may be the one who is convinced that the Earth is flat and the center of the universe!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> Smilie,
> I'm not trying to be a jerk here. This stuff is complicated and can get confusing. You certainly understand more than most.
> You seem to have stated and cited conflicting accounts here, so, signal time is longer for a HIGHER Leverage bit because it acts more slowly, assuming all other factors besides leverage are the same. A LOWER Leverage bit acts more quickly, and thus decreases signal time, assuming all other factors, like port height, remain unchanged.



Is that not what I tried to say? Maybe my wording was confusing!


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

As I read it, back on page 6 of this thread, you were stating and citing sources stating just the opposite. No big deal.

Merry Christmas and everyone enjoy your weekend. My sons and I are going Cubscout camping and cooking over an open fire for 2 days for 70 people!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi DanielD
Okay, using the KISS principle, as perhaps I sounded contradictory at times, and maybe did not get my points across correctly, please just answer this question, so I know things are straight in my head.
I certainly am no fan of the TT, just to be straight there also!

Okay, here goes.
If I use a curb, with the total shank length of the bit, called, A, for convenience, longer than total shank length of bit B, with mouth piece design, purchase length the same, then have shanks of bit A both loose and at a lesser angle then bit B, does bit A not then have three features that cause slower uptake, thus greater signal time?????
Have a great Christmas!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> well, Mia should have had atalk with Smilie!
> This bit has fixed shanks, that are pretty straight, and encouraged the desired head carriage









​ 
This is a screenshot capture, but Smilie does illustrate my point about how the angle of the reins work out when a straight sided curb rotates with a vertical headset. Maybe I can delete my goofy drawing now.

However, as for encouraging it...Meet Mia:








​ 
This picture taught me a lot about curb bits. I still have ample slack in the reins, but the weight of the reins, by themselves, have rotated the bit to the "neutral position" - with the weight of the end of the rein being carried directly under the mouthpiece, which is where the horse supports the weight. Again, a direct line from my hand to the bit would result in a near 90 pull - the optimum angle for rotating the bit.

The bit's initial rotation is so free and easy that Mia doesn't give a rat's rear about it. But the period of free rotation is now gone - used up by the weight of the reins and the balance of the bit. So if I now took the slack out of the reins and applied pressure, Mia would get no warning the pressure was coming. That warning is the "signal". It is what gives the horse a chance to obey BEFORE pressure, and makes a curb bit a very gentle bit!

*But since I'm using the wrong bit for how I want my horse to move, I've robbed her of any warning/signal*, so now all I have left is a pressure-applying leverage bit. Not harsh, since I at least used it gently, but I'm not doing her any favors either!

With the bent shanked BA, it worked like this:








​ 
The neutral position now carries the weight of the rein under the mouthpiece, but the bent shanks means the curb bit still needs to rotate 45-60 degrees before any pressure will be applied. Thus she now has the benefit of the warning (signal), and we could potentially ride for hours without any pressure in her mouth other than the weight of the bit & reins, which all horses have as their minimum when ridden in a bit.

Smilie moved with a vertical headset, not because the bit taught her to do so, but because YOU taught her to do so. And that is what WP & dressage and some other styles of riding desire. I strongly dislike those styles because it prevents the horse from seeing well. They only have a very small area of their eye capable of good vision, and they cannot adjust where they are looking without moving their head. So the WP/Dressage headset says "Look at the ground immediately in front of you and ignore anything else".

I'm not convinced any human sport is worth doing that to a horse. That is why, when I see this, I think, "Let go of his face!" and usually toss a few expletives in:








​
I'd as soon have someone break my wrists as ride around with a curb bit whose shanks are parallel to the ground! However, lots of horses are ridden that way and seem to accept it. I am glad to see Smilie's bit was at a much more reasonable position. Smilie didn't looked 'forced'.

I guess a dislike for a vertical headset is a personal prejudice of mine. Lots of seemingly happy horses are trained that way, regardless of my feelings - and a happy horse is good enough, I guess. I don't mean to offend anyone over it, but it has become common in western riding and I don't know why. When I think of western riding, I think of this:










When I ride my horse, I want my horse looking around and engaged, even if it buys me some spookiness and jumping around sometimes. I've started to tell myself, "At least he's thinking..." :icon_rolleyes:

BTW - If the total length of the shank increases, but the purchase (top part) remains the same length, then the ratio between them has changed and leverage has increased. I don't know anything about looseness and signal, having never tried anything like it.​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I certainly don't ride Smilie on a trail with any headset, but let her carry herself naturally. Ditto for chasing cows! You are again trying to compare show ring with out side of showring riding, which are not always one and the same
That pic is from a moment in time, coming in the in gate, and I have more contact at the moment, as I am probably spacing myself still
I am also not trying to argue any on the Points Daniel made, as he is the pro, and I most likely did not express myself correctly, far as physics, but I do know in my mind , who certain curbs work, both on design, discipline and training level of the horse
I have been doing some Christmas cleaning, and cam across an excellent plamplet on bit function, that I have to re-read, so I don't sound like i;m contradicting anything
Coming from a medical background, I often come across terminology incorrectly expressed, by lay people-such as using the term 'blood thinner, versus anti coagulant, and many other statements. I can argue that heparin, di coumerol do not in fact, thin the blood, to be completely 'scientific
Anyway, the plamplet was put out by western horseman, and written by Greg Darrnel, not only a good horseman, but a master bit maker.
I admit to needing to read it again, in order to be more concise. I absorb more, reading a hard copy several times then watching a video, and Greg's knowledge can hardly be disputed
Thus, my choice of a western pl bit, on a horse ready for that bit
From article:

'For a pleasure horse, or any horse who carries his face on the vertical position, we want a bridle bit that hangs more or less straight.
We don't want one that hangs behind center, because the curb strap doesn't release in that situation
Once the natural balance of abit has been determined, we can increase the signal by using a heavier bit (I forgot to mention that )
Single time (the delay from the time you pick your hand up until it actually moves the bit in the horse's mouth ) can also be influenced
by the use of an over balanced bit, with a rapid curb release(thus position of shanks )
Another factor in that delay (signal time) is using a loose jawed bit (something I also mentioned )
Shank design, affects signal time, as already mentioned above,;
Material used (heavier material + more signal )
he states that if we wish to slow the signal time, we can tilt the mouth piece back
Another factor, is whether the shank has rings or a hinge where reins attach
he goes into how designs like an s shape, and where it adds weight, is also afactor
He then says, 'other than that, the actual physical point of leverage, derived from the butt of the mouthpiece down
To determine the ratio describing the leverage of a bit, compare the distance from the butt of the mouth piece up tot he head stall ring, with the distance of the butt of the mouth piece down tot he rein ring
Thew greater the ratio, the more leverage the rider has, and the quicker the signal
Also, the more acute the angle of the shank, in relation to an imaginary line drawn from the top bridle ring through the butt of the mouth piece, the less effect leverage has (he uses pics very similar
to those posted)
Adjustment of curb strap, obviously, also plays a role
Now, maybe I did not state some of these facts correctly, from memory, and maybe they are completely in line as to what DD said, but I am going to read all the info again, several times, and Greg Darnell certainly understands the bits he creates-so good enough reference for me!
I would recommend this publication for anyone wanting to understand basic designs and functions of acurb


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

certainly not asking Charlie for nay head set here!



Nor Carmen here


Certainly not, leading a pack horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

certainly not asking Charlie for nay head set here!



Nor Carmen here


Certainly not, leading a pack horse


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Hi DanielD
> Okay, using the KISS principle, as perhaps I sounded contradictory at times, and maybe did not get my points across correctly, please just answer this question, so I know things are straight in my head.
> I certainly am no fan of the TT, just to be straight there also!
> 
> ...


In short, no. Lengthening the shank of a bit would both increase the leverage and slow the signal. Loose cheeks would add a minor amount of signal time, but very little. The only other change that one can make to affect signal time is loosening up the curb chain. Changing the angle, and I am still not sure exactly what y'all mean by that, whether you mean a bit's neutral balance pt or angle relative to the vertical, has no affect on the timing of the signal. Any time the shanks rotate, the mouthpiece also rotates along with poll, port, and curb chain action. Where on the arc of the circle that begins has NO CHANGE ON SPEED OF ACTION. If you want to know why, it is explained and illustrated in the video beginning at 46 minutes and 20 seconds.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ I bought it on Ebay for $10 a couple of years ago. It is a good article on bits, but a little pricey. It might be available elsewhere.

"_You are again trying to compare show ring with out side of showring riding, which are not always one and the same_"

The only point I was trying to make is that a straight bit makes sense for a horse with a vertical headset, and a bent one makes sense if the horse is going to carry its head at an angle. Since mine all carry their heads at an angle, and move them freely, the bents shanks make sense for me.

The use of a vertical headset in various disciplines is just a pet peeve of mine. It was understandable when we didn't know how a horse's eye works. But we now know that horses have a small area of vision that is near human in acuity, and very poor vision everywhere else - mainly functioning as a 'movement detector'. It just strikes me as unfair to ask a horse to move blindly because we think it looks better - or because it helps "collection", but at the cost of the horse's vision.

It goes back to how much we choose to listen to past riders. Many had a very good understanding of horses, and rode them in numbers and in greater distances than 90%+ of modern riders. But they also had blind spots, as do we, based on the age in which we live. CS Lewis wrote that reading old books helped one to transcend the age one lives in, and opens our eyes to the blind spots our culture and time has by giving us a chance to see how another age and culture thought. Done right, reading old books and listening to the thoughts of 'old masters' can expand our horizons and reduce our blind spots.

In truth, I'm one of the blindest riders on HF. Almost all my experience is filtered thru the lens of riding Mia - and Mia was not a typical horse. In my defense, though, since I am self taught and I like to experiment, I've probably TRIED more odd ideas than the vast majority of riders. Very few modern riders would look at this 1800s picture of an Australian rider and wonder, "What would happen if I tried that?":








​ 
I did and have, and found it is neither the way I want to ride, nor as bad as many people assume. It is kind of like a Tom Thumb bit. I bought a cheap one to see how it worked with Mia, and concluded it didn't work as well as the BA, but wasn't pure evil either.

In any case, it is a genuine pleasure to be able to discuss bits with people who have ridden far more horses and miles than I have, and do so WITHOUT the rancor and anger that so often accompanies discussions on bits!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> In short, no. Lengthening the shank of a bit would both increase the leverage and slow the signal. Loose cheeks would add a minor amount of signal time, but very little. The only other change that one can make to affect signal time is loosening up the curb chain. Changing the angle, and I am still not sure exactly what y'all mean by that, whether you mean a bit's neutral balance pt or angle relative to the vertical, has no affect on the timing of the signal. Any time the shanks rotate, the mouthpiece also rotates along with poll, port, and curb chain action. Where on the arc of the circle that begins has NO CHANGE ON SPEED OF ACTION. If you want to know why, it is explained and illustrated in the video beginning at 46 minutes and 20 seconds.


Is my wording that off???? When I say increase signal time, it means slows it, as in ' gives it more time, lengthens signal time.'!!!!!
I did say, the longer shank would INCREASE Leverage, purchase being the same between both BITs AND INCREASe THE SIGNAL TIME in the longer shanked bit, 
When I say decreases signal time, I mean it gives less signal time. I guess I'm speaking French, as far as I can tell, saying the same thing
When you increase something, you then slow the time for that distance to be covered. When the distance in a road is INCREASED, you then take more time to travel that distance
Conversely, when you decrease signal time, you give the horse less time to react, as that signal time is shorter, as in shorter shanks!!!!!!!

That is also why I said you sacrifice some signal time, moving a colt to a curb, using shorter shanks, for the benefit of less leverage (assuming purchase and bit mouth piece design, curb strap, ect are constant
To me, greater signal time, means more signal time, so I think you are knocking me,w hen I'm basically saying what you are saying, ans what I have learned over the years!!!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And, you also don't know that most of my curbs have an angle
I just showed a bit that works for a finished western pl horse, not to force, but encourage him to carry his head in the position rewarded, for that discipline,whether you like it or not!
It does not mean I ride with that bit anywhere except in the show pen,or on any other horse I own, just on Smilie , who is ready for that bit. 
She can see going down the trail as well as your horses, jump logs, do tricky maneuvers that the trail might require, look at game, ect, as I don't ride her on trails with that show bit, but with a simple single jointed mouth curb, short shanks and loose jawed
I did post just one of the bits I use, trail riding.
When I did reining, I used a curb with a Billy Allen mouth piece, loose shanks, or a correction bit
I guess I could take pictures of all the bits I have, use and ride in,right from snaffles tot hat short shanked colt transition bit, to Aluminium grazing bits, ect ect, but I'm beginning to think I am writing in my native German

OKay Once more
INcreased signal time means it slows the signal time. If I have a longer time to sleep, I wake up slower and have increased my sleep time
What is so hard to understand there??????

Yes, leverage is due tot he total shank, which INCLUDES the purchase, and the part of the shank below the mouth piece Thus longer shanks increase leverage and the purchase ratio can increase severity, as in the TT

THus, once more.
Bit A
Longer shank then bit B, with purchase/shank ratio the same
point of balance of bit, thus angle of shanks is part of that picture, far as that balance
Loose jawed

Bit B
Shorter shanks, thus less leverage AND LESS signal time
fixed shanks
Shanks that are at 90 degrees

To me, that still gives three factors that will cause bit A to have More (ie longer ) signal time than bit B, all other things being equal


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is the definition of signal time, that I go by:

Signal time (the delay from the time you pick your hand up until it actually moves the bit in the horse's mouth 
So if you increase the signal time, to me that means you delay the action, slow it down
Just had to dwell on that as somehow there is mis communication going on, when I say =increase signal time.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I just showed a bit that works for a finished western pl horse, not to force, but encourage him to carry his head in the position rewarded, for that discipline,whether you like it or not!_"

My point was just that the shape of the bit did NOT encourage a vertical headset, since a horse can easily move around with straight shanks AND a 45 deg headset. You trained for what you wanted. That is OK."I very strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned." Littauer, Schooling Your Horse pg 8​Of course, WP "assigns" a vertical headset. It is one of the many things I do not understand about western pleasure, which looks like neither to me. I granted some horses seem to do it happily, and that is what matters. But I also think all horse sports, particularly judged horse sports, should regularly ask themselves WHY they insist a horse do XYZ, if XYZ is not natural to a horse.

"Signal time (the delay from the time you pick your hand up until it actually moves the bit in the horse's mouth"

Rotation is an important part of the signal (warning), and it involves movement. A longer shank can increase how much your hand has to move before the curb strap tightens, but it has no effect on how many degrees of rotation the bit makes - and the horse is not looking at your hand. So I dissent from all the experts, and fail to see how shank length affects signal to the horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

but, you see, your definition of signal time, differs from what I think it is, and what a Master bit Maker, from whom that definition is from, defines it as being
Are you thinking of already riding with contact, then just the rotation process, or the UPTAKE and just contact?
It is also why, the faster a horse is moving, the slower should your up take on those reins be

Okay, on to good old leverage, as a curb is defined as as leverage bit:

A leverage bit (commonly called a curb bit) has shanks (bars running alongside the horse's mouth) and a curb strap (or curb chain), like the Tom Thumb; the reins are attached below the mouthpiece at the bottom of the shanks and the head stall is attached above the mouthpiece, at the top of the purchase. There is not direct pressure from the bit, but leveraged pressure on the horse's mouth. A leverage bit (commonly referred to as a Curb bit) can apply pressure to the horse's lips, tongue, bars and palate; as well as the poll and chin.



The amount of leverage the bit has depends on the ratio between the purchase (the part of the shank that is above the mouthpiece) and the shank (which is the part below the mouthpiece). A one to one ratio would be very mild with little leverage; a one to 3, 4 or 5 ratio would be increasingly harsher and multiply the leverage by 3, 4 or 5 times.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> "_I just showed a bit that works for a finished western pl horse, not to force, but encourage him to carry his head in the position rewarded, for that discipline,whether you like it or not!_"
> 
> My point was just that the shape of the bit did NOT encourage a vertical headset, since a horse can easily move around with straight shanks AND a 45 deg headset. You trained for what you wanted. That is OK."I very strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned." Littauer, Schooling Your Horse pg 8​Of course, WP "assigns" a vertical headset. It is one of the many things I do not understand about western pleasure, which looks like neither to me. I granted some horses seem to do it happily, and that is what matters. But I also think all horse sports, particularly judged horse sports, should regularly ask themselves WHY they insist a horse do XYZ, if XYZ is not natural to a horse.
> 
> ...


Showring shows level of ability, and training, and does not need to reflect actual application outside the showring
What purpose does along sliding stop have? The cow would be long gone!
What purpose does airs above ground have now, unless you wish to have your horse kick in your neighbour's head!

Far as western pl, it can seem very simple, and at entry level, you can win, if the horse does all three gaits and has decent transitions and is steady, even if movement is not exceptional, or some contact is needed to rate speed etc

Once you get to the level where all the horses can easily meet those requirements you have to up the degree of difficulty
In the case of western pl, able to keep frame, rate speed, perform all gaits and transitions on a loose rein, esp at the lope, while keeping a true 3 beat lope, moving slow legged, ups the degree of difficulty
I don't expect you to like it, or even understand it, beyond the fact that it raises the bar
Smilie can race across the field with the best of them, and when I watch Charlie doing her version of Airs Above ground, I refer to her as my lippizanner! You would not think Charlie could move like a pleasure horse,just watching her at liberty, beyond the fact that she is a good mover, but that is where training and ability comes in
Also< while I don't trail ride and ask for any head carriage, I do make sure all of my horses, when asked, will give me their face and poll. If a horse, instead just sticks neck up, nose out, when something concerns them, It is like having zero control, far as I'm concerned!
Being able to ask a horse to lower his head, give in the face and poll, is the first thing to get a horse out of flight mode
What you don't want, is a horse that gets behind the vertical, and why that is a serious fault, as it is bit evasion, and once a horse drops behind the vertical to a certain ,point, might as well throw those reins away!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now, this should really have another thread, but you asked about showring expectations.
Well, we no longer need horses for transportation, war, ,ect, and not all people are happy just trail riding, but have a competitive nature, and a desire to measure their horse;s ability by some sort of parameter, which can often result in expectations considered not necessarily practical
This is not just in horse sports/competition, but look at some human examples
What purpose is served by a bunch of guys kicking and throwing a ball around, or skating after a puck?
I'm all for not using any abusive training methods, towards these goals, and show events do get many where winning becomes everything, and so what is wrong in those disciplines , due to some bad apples, becomes public.
But, how many recreational horses do you know, where people haul on long shanked curbs and use some very bad training techniques? I certainly know lots, but they remain relatively un noticed, far as pubic perception
I believe I mentioned the outfitter who used a running W to teach a whoa
For every great enlighten horseman you mention from the past there were numerous people who abused horses, as they were just 'tools. Coal mines, and the gold rush trails, cart and carriage horses, livery stable horses, work horses-many, many of these suffered tremendous abuse
Most show horses today, enjoy a much, much better life


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I just need to bud in again....

Since when has a bit got anything to do with headset?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Since when has a bit got anything to do with headset?_"

A vertical headset needs a straight shanked bit to be balanced, and a head carried at 45 degrees needs a bent shank to be balanced. The desired headset shapes which style bit makes sense, for the reasons previously stated. But the bit doesn't create or encourage a headset. Training does that. The result of the training then influences which bit makes sense.

"_Are you thinking of already riding with contact, then just the rotation process, or the UPTAKE and just contact?_"

No. I've posted pictures of a horse where the weight of the SLACK reins rotates the bit until the curb strap tightens. That period of FREE ROTATION gives the horse a very clear warning of what is to come. The horse can FEEL the bit rotating. It is extremely clear, as would be a piece of metal rotating in your mouth against your tongue. THAT is a clear and unmistakeable warning built in to the mechanics of a properly balanced curb bit ridden without contact. THAT is what makes it possible to ride very gently with a curb bit. It is NOT just 'taking some slack out of the reins, before anything moves with the bit'. Anyone who says that fails to understand curb bits and their function - which a great many experienced riders do.

SLACK REINS, and bit already rotated to the point of tightening the curb strap - and thus the WRONG choice of bit for that style of riding, since it robbed Mia of warning:








​ 
As for showing and WP - not the purpose of this thread. However, the idea that Western Pleasure raises the bar of western riding is...well, I'm not buying it.

"_What purpose does along sliding stop have?_"

None. I have a low opinion of it.

"_What purpose does airs above ground have now_?"

None. I have a low opinion of them. Why? Because I agree with Littauer: 

"_I very strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned._"

My opinion is obviously one many people do not share. But I do have the right to hold it, and I would be willing to defend it on another thread. But not this one. It is a side issue which I wish I had not raised. Red herring.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

As can be seen from the posts presented, calculating the leverage effect of any shanked bit can be very complicated. Determining factors that can vary the results include length and shape of the shank and purchase. The tightness or looseness of the curb strap or chain. The angle at which the reins apply the force (i.e. Does the rider’s hand act horizontally, vertically, or at a forty-five degree angle?).

Whatever pressure is applied is distributed between the mouthpiece, the curb strap or chain, and the top of the bridle. Where the pressure is applied will be affected by how the bit and curb strap or chain are adjusted.

The distribution of pressure is also affected by the diameter, width, shape, and design of the mouthpiece. The design of the curb strap or chain will also affect pressure distribution. The width of the bridle on top of the head will also have some affect on pressure distribution.

All these factors are confusing in themselves, but we must also consider the dynamics of the horse. How does the horse use its complex tongue to distribute pressure between the tongue itself and the bars of the mouth? How does the horse affect applied pressure by movement of his head and neck?

It is important to have some understanding of bit design, action, and potential severity. Daniel’s videos attempt to provide such information. But, as Daniel also points out, one can become too fixated on the bit itself. The most important factors are how the rider uses the reins and bit and how the horse reacts to them as well as to changes in the rider’s body.

Two riders may achieve what superficially appears to be the same result using two diverse applications. While some riders may be satisfied with achieving a basic reaction, others will desire more. They will want their horse to respond to the gentlest form of communication in the most relaxed and willing way.

An analogy may be helpful. You may get a child to smile for a family photo by using a variety of methods. But it is best if the child smiles naturally because he or she enjoys this family activity.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie said:


> This is the definition of signal time, that I go by:
> 
> Signal time (the delay from the time you pick your hand up until it actually moves the bit in the horse's mouth
> As soon as a shank is moved, signal time is over. Thus, by your definition, the only thing affecting signal time is how much slack was on the reins before they made contact and moved the shank.
> ...


I understand exactly what you are saying, although, this is different than what was said and cited a few pages ago.
In my last reply, I was trying to point out that your first point was correct. Your second point was correct, but marginal. The third point about shank position is, however, in my opinion (even if it differs with Greg Darnall) is bogus. Bit balance/shank position is an important facet. It does not, however affect speed of action in the least.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If "signal" ends the moment the shanks start moving, then what follows "signal"?

Because in a curb bit, "contact" doesn't begin until the shanks have rotated enough for the curb strap to tighten. The curb strap tightens before the slack is out of the reins - see picture in post #92. 

From the web site Smilie linked to:"The time it takes between the rein cue and the bit or shank to engage the horse’s mouth is known as the “signal”. The rider below is already “handling” the horse’s face (see that the reins are tight and the bit is engaged) after first picking up on the reins to *signal* the horse that a request was coming....

... If the shanks of a curb-action bit are adjusted at a proper angle (usually about 45 degrees), the horse will have time to realize that the shank is moving and prepare for a leg or body cue before the curb is actually engaged." - underlining mine

Signal | Horse-Pros.com​If the definition of "engaged" is when the reins have the slack out, then signal extends until the curb strap tightens, which makes sense - you are "signaling" your intent PRIOR to applying pressure in the mouth.

But if one uses a different idea of signal, then one still needs to accept that time when the bit is rotating freely in the mouth, and figure out what to call it - because that is THE critical time for using a curb bit very lightly yet precisely. In a Billy Allen, I can cue the left side of the mouth and not the right, while applying no additional pressure to either side of the mouth. I'm certainly still signalling my intent to the horse but not with contact.

"_The most important factors are how the rider uses the reins and bit and how the horse reacts to them as well as to changes in the rider’s body._"

Yes and no. While the rider's use is the ultimate controlling factor, it is reasonable to say some bits are harsher or gentler by their design. A double twisted wire bit is rather hard to use gently, while a mullen is fairly hard to use harshly. One can make a mess out of a horse with either bit, but one is more likely to have a harmful effect by design of the double twisted wire bit.

With curb bits, a great many people think they are "harsh" because the work off of "leverage". But if one understands the mechanics, then it is easy to see how a curb bit with 8 inch shanks (ooohhh....scary to many people!) can be a very gentle bit - arguably gentler than a sidepull halter. And when one understands the mechanics, they can then determine if they and their horse are ready to use a given bit.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> "_The most important factors are how the rider uses the reins and bit and how the horse reacts to them as well as to changes in the rider’s body._"
> 
> Yes and no. While the rider's use is the ultimate controlling factor, it is reasonable to say some bits are harsher or gentler by their design. A double twisted wire bit is rather hard to use gently, while a mullen is fairly hard to use harshly. One can make a mess out of a horse with either bit, but one is more likely to have a harmful effect by design of the double twisted wire bit.
> 
> With curb bits, a great many people think they are "harsh" because the work off of "leverage". But if one understands the mechanics, then it is easy to see how a curb bit with 8 inch shanks (ooohhh....scary to many people!) can be a very gentle bit - arguably gentler than a sidepull halter. And when one understands the mechanics, they can then determine if they and their horse are ready to use a given bit.


I did not state other factors had no importance or affect on the outcome. In fact, I stated quite the opposite. The sentence you quote itself indicates this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I apologize for not being clearer. That happens to me sometimes, particularly when I post at 11PM. When I said "Yes and no", I meant that I agreed with what you said but felt something additional was worth mentioning.

Bits, IMHO, come in 3 basic categories. There are the mechanically easy to to use, the mechanically difficult to use, and the mechanically inappropriate to put into a horse's mouth. A Billy Allen snaffle or curb is mechanically easy to use well. A spade bit is quite difficult to use well, but a good rider who knows what he is doing can use one extremely well.

But some bits are mechanically designed to cause pain, plain and simple. Maybe it shows my lack of riding experience, but I really don't see where a double twisted wire curb bit is appropriate for ANY hands. I don't see where a thin twisted wire snaffle is the right choice, regardless of a rider's ability to work around its inherently flawed design. When the design of the bit is meant to cause pain easily, then it is not a bit that has much reason to exist regardless of how good the rider's hands are.

I'm not suggesting you think otherwise. I suspect the bits you own and use would all make sense to me, even if I didn't have the skill to use them myself. But I also feel a true statement "It's the hands..." covers up another true statement: "It is also the bit..." From your post, I assume you agree that bit design can be good or bad. I was trying to bring out a point, and maybe did so needlessly. There probably are not a lot of the "I need a bit to collect my horse" types who have read through the nearly 100 responses on a thread that initially had very few responses at all.

If I gave offense, I apologize. I probably should not post things after about 9 PM, or before my second cup of coffee.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, this discussion has into the rehelms of becoming nit picking on mechanical details that completely ignors the training of the horse itself, and the rider himself
I'm very fine with the concepts I have learned, reading Greg Darrnel, Bob Avila and others.
Yes, I use that bit on Smilie, as a finished western pl horse, but I do not 'need' it for her to carry herself in frame, as she has the training. I got the same carriage, riding her as a two year old, in a snaffle, as it goes right back to what people like Lynn Palm has stated,far as riding with about 80% legs to reins
If you ride correctly, using legs and seat, then the bit is a very small component, or the entire picture, as TXHorseman touched on
The very concept of the single jointed bit having a nut cracker effect, is the direct result of people focusing how that bit functions, were someone to just pull back on it with two hands, versus using it correctly, where that nut cracker does not come into effect, because the rider neither has that bit adjusted with several wrinkles, nor is he riding off just of his hands.
I can lunge either Smilie or Charlie , with just a halter, ask for the lope transition, and they will pick it up, keeping frame completely on their own
My point, BSMS, is that the expectations of western pl, raise the bar , far as that event itself, and never suggested it as being a standard for all disciplines of riding western. If you don't compete in western pleasure at the breed level, then it has no bearing on you, and certainly is not something you need.

"WE' RIDE HORSES MAINLY NOW FOR RERcEATION, excluding things like working ranches, and a few other thing still using 'horse power. Also, horses are now mainly owned by people that want horses in their lives, versus anyone that needed 'horse power,as in the past
I love trail riding much as anyone, and have always done so, thus balancing how much I showed. Still, with horses being now used just for recreation,most cases, how can you or anyone dictate that they should not be used for showing/competition, nor by not showing in various events, then judge and try to impose standards?
Unless you have raised and trained that horse yourself, then have him work for you in that show pen, you don't know the feeling that generates, when you have a great ride. Not just winning, but that horse performing honestly, responsive to your cues
In fact, I think no discussion of any bit, can be complete , without also going into what that rider is doing with his hands,, and HOW he is also using legs and seat.
I have most likely some 20 different bits, but could do with just four
A plain O ring snaffle
A D ring snaffle for English
A jointed mouth curb
A curb with a low wide port I also don't 'need' that bit I pictured, in order to show western pleasure on a senior horse, and in fact, have not yet used it on Charlie, who is not ready
I showed Smilie just as well with an Aluminum grazing bit

The main factors, far as riding with a bit, are a constant

-get basic foundation in a snaffle
-graduate a horse to a curb, versus using one for 'control'
Always ride with more legs than hands, and get body control, doing so
Then, that bit only becomes a signal, as the horse works mainly off of seat and legs and that indirect rein.
If you don't have that, all those nuisances of any bit mean nothing. If you don't have shoulder control, an ingrained correct stop, ect, no bit in the World is going to change that fact, although many people do try to fix these issues, going from one bit to another, searching for that 'magic' bit


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A young filly, that was just trail ridden, on her first few lopes-just loping, no frame asked for


Smilie, as along two year old, shown in a snaffle



Charlie, just shown in hand, with aD ring snaffle



Smilie, just trail riidng



The point being, while certain bits can give slight nuisances, they alone do nothing, without the right training , and riding with 'feel', using legs correctly, and that is the most important point, when discusing riidng on forums, as all too often many people on those forums are already looking for some 'magic bit, when in most cases, what is missng isgood basic training


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Question on balance and the sweet water bit. My paint Cruiser came with his favorite bit, a sweet water without fixed cheeks (the mouthpiece can slide up the purchase maybe 1/2") and a fairly straight, slightly swept back shank. Would this actually encourage a behind the bit carriage due to the forward tilt of the port? 
I know now I have been making it worse with my English riding habits of keeping contact, which I try and try to break, but a 20 year habit is hard to break.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> The main factors, far as riding with a bit, are a constant
> 
> -get basic foundation in a snaffle
> -graduate a horse to a curb, versus using one for 'control'
> ...


Amen, great post


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Curb means restrain, and curb bits were designed to provide control of speed. There is nothing wrong with using a curb bit with a marginally trained horse because there is nothing inherently harsh about a curb bit. It is just the best tool for rating a horse, just as a snaffle is the best tool for lateral control. Curbs can also be used for refinement, but there is no requirement to achieve a high level of training before moving to a curb.

Riding more with legs than hands depends on the type riding. Precise and fast steering involves using the hands more than the legs. A bit is more precise than leg pressure for positioning a horse. Legs are good for "take the right fork", or "cut across the arena now". Bridleless polo, OTOH, would probably look pretty ugly.

And yes, since Mia learned a good stop in a curb, not a snaffle, it is possible. The mechanics of a curb bit make it harder to evade, and that can be helpful if the horse is a strong willed and intelligent horse who is willing to fight against a snaffle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

karliejaye said:


> Question on balance and the sweet water bit. My paint Cruiser came with his favorite bit, a sweet water without fixed cheeks (the mouthpiece can slide up the purchase maybe 1/2") and a fairly straight, slightly swept back shank. Would this actually encourage a behind the bit carriage due to the forward tilt of the port?
> I know now I have been making it worse with my English riding habits of keeping contact, which I try and try to break, but a 20 year habit is hard to break.



It sounds like you are describing a gag bit
Can you post a picture?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Curb means restrain, and curb bits were designed to provide control of speed. There is nothing wrong with using a curb bit with a marginally trained horse because there is nothing inherently harsh about a curb bit. It is just the best tool for rating a horse, just as a snaffle is the best tool for lateral control. Curbs can also be used for refinement, but there is no requirement to achieve a high level of training before moving to a curb.
> 
> Riding more with legs than hands depends on the type riding. Precise and fast steering involves using the hands more than the legs. A bit is more precise than leg pressure for positioning a horse. Legs are good for "take the right fork", or "cut across the arena now". Bridleless polo, OTOH, would probably look pretty ugly.
> 
> And yes, since Mia learned a good stop in a curb, not a snaffle, it is possible. The mechanics of a curb bit make it harder to evade, and that can be helpful if the horse is a strong willed and intelligent horse who is willing to fight against a snaffle.


See, now we are going into discipline and speed, from what you state above
is not certainly any absolute.Yes, a curb can be used on contact, as in barrel racing and polo, for control, for that is not the ideal, esp today, training a western performance horse.
It is also why bits not legal elsewhere, are used in games, and often in combo with tie downs It is also why, those classes are often called "jerk and spur classes' By no means am I saying that all games horses are run that way, but enough to present that image
I did not run open NBRA, so perhaps those chain curbs are needed there, but at the breed level anyway, and at open shows, I ran games in a snaffle, even when I showed those horses up in a curb
Reiners run a fast circle, and even in the run down to a sliding stop, they run up hill and on a loose rein. If this was not so, impossible for people like Tracy Westfall and Craig Johnson to run reining patterns on a loose rein
Yes, you can force a stop, out of bit intimidation, and you can also temporally at least, fix a horse that is running through a simple snaffle, BUT that horse will eventually learn to run through any bit, until there is no bit left to go to, soon as his pain level and new pressure points adapt
You sold Mia, so have no idea how permanent that fix or going to a curb was
Perhaps Mia was also past the point, having had poor basic training where you had to go to a curb for control, but you are never going to convince me, or anyone who has started many horses, that going to a curb for control is 'ideal' It is a fix up, for some horses that have been screwed up beyond a certain point

The entire reason I decided to take this thread back to basics of good training, is because from other member feed backs, it seems that somehow it was advocated that by using a particular curb, you were going to get a vertical head set, and I sure don't wish to go in that direction, nor get so hung up in slight nuisance that different curbs can produce, that have nothing to do with basic good training, nor have application except at very upper end disciplines, twiking very minor things, but having no major impact on training a basic good horse up in the bridle.
I have to disagree with you, BSMS, far as advancing to a curb until a horse is correct in a snaffle, at least to where any of those detailed bit functions D.D discussed even have any significance.
It might have worked for you,as just recreational riding, your expectations don't need to be anywhere near that of someone competing at some upper discipline, where 'holes' in basics are more evident
Far as not needing legs to ride effectively at speed, tell me how you would correct a horse running off at the shoulder? If you just tried to pull his head in the direction you wanted to go, and you did not have shoulder control, nor able to boot that shoulder back into alignment, you could have his nose cranked to your toe, going right, and he could still run off to the left, following his shoulder
I watched a reining clinic, give by Craig Johnson, where a horse is taught to 'seek' that circle, staying evenly between the reins and the legs, running on a loose rein. You don't correct the horse when he drifts either in or out with the reins, but with your legs
I don't jump cross country, and I can certainly see where there ,a curb, used with contact, can be used to control a horse when he gets 'strong', fueled on adrenaline, but if you are trying to convince me that going to a curb, for control, on a western horse, is any more than a bandaid application, I remain in the camp of the 'non believer' and also why I thought my other post , concerning good basic western training was very pertinent to this thread


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> Question on balance and the sweet water bit. My paint Cruiser came with his favorite bit, a sweet water without fixed cheeks (the mouthpiece can slide up the purchase maybe 1/2") and a fairly straight, slightly swept back shank. Would this actually encourage a behind the bit carriage due to the forward tilt of the port?
> I know now I have been making it worse with my English riding habits of keeping contact, which I try and try to break, but a 20 year habit is hard to break.


In all honesty, each company would have their own version of what a sweetwater is, and that would not normally have any gag action.so, rather than give you possibly bad advice, could you possibly take a pic of the bit showing the balance, angle of mouth relative to purchase, and the area where the bit has that slide up the purchase? If you can do that, I'd be happy to share my thoughts.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Smilie said:


> The entire reason _I decided to take this thread_


I must admit I was curious. Several of us have gently bumped the reins to no avail, so I'll tighten the curb chain and put a bit larger port in.

Y'all's bickering has likely stopped several more folks in need of answers from asking for fear of a 7 page bashing. In the future, rather than de-rail one of mine, please, just start your own...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> Y'all's bickering has likely stopped several more folks in need of answers from asking for fear of a 7 page bashing. In the future, rather than de-rail one of mine, please, just start your own...


Personally I have enjoyed reading Smilies input, it has made for an interesting thread.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I will grab some photos in the AM of the bit itself, but in the meantime, here's a pic showing the cheek of it and how it sits in his mouth.
Thanks again for your video series on bits. I found it really logical and informative, especially coming from an English jumping and polo background.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Personally I have enjoyed reading Smilies input, it has made for an interesting thread.


Your enjoyment and the rules of etiquette need not be mutually exclusive. Just a thought...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, Daniel, if you took my input as bickering, as that was never my intent.
I bow to your detailed bit knowledge, although I am not about to use up all my down load data, to watch all your videos on line.
I have also been around long enough, to long ago, get information from many sources, and have taken enough clinics in various disciplines, from people who have proven themselves in those disciplines, in order to know the 'bones' of a good training programs, including basic bit advancement and function in those disciplines, and how to turn out a good horse
When people gazing in on this thread, start to get the impression that a certain bit creates a particular head set, through force, which I know you never intended, it is still time to get back to the basics of a good training program, and that is not by just concentrating on what is on the head or in the mouth
I am sure your bit series are great resource for people to purchase, I just happen to like Bob Avila's series, called Bitology, and the one by Greg Darnell, and just the practical hands on, taking clinics from people very successful from working cowhorse, western riding, western pl and reining Your series, just like various clinics from various people , are just another resource, to take what ones find applicable , and combine with other resources out there
No offense was ever intended. As you suggest, I won't comment on this thread again.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Smilie, I hope you are not referring to my question on the sweet water encouraging a horse to go BTV. I didn't think Daniel's explanation inferred that you could use bits or force to obtain a headset. In fact with this gelding I have gone back to a snaffle 90% of the time to concentrate on improving impulsion without the effects of the curb. At this point I don't care if he is on the verticle or in front until I have a few other holes filled in. I was simply curious about bit balance and its role because it is a new concept to me. Please don't assume that my question on balance and headset makes me an idiot riding front to back looking for a quick fix, please and thank you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Threads do derail at times. It is what happens when people comment, and discuss how the basic idea of the thread affects them."Yes, you can force a stop, out of bit intimidation, and you can also temporally at least, fix a horse that is running through a simple snaffle, BUT that horse will eventually learn to run through any bit, until there is no bit left to go to, soon as his pain level and new pressure points adapt
You sold Mia, so have no idea how permanent that fix or going to a curb was..."​Well, I rode her for a couple of YEARS beyond that, and she was getting softer with time and more confident with time...so yeah, I think I can say without a doubt it DID work.

Bits do not work through pain. The curb bit didn't 'fix' Mia by using pain, but by applying pressure in a way where only I could give her release. A snaffle is easy for a horse to evade. But as long as the rider pulls back on the reins, a horse cannot get relief from a curb. Since she could only get relief by doing what I wanted (stand still when scared, or stop when excited), she learned to do it my way. Most of the time. But being an independent horse, she still reserved the right to try doing it her way."I have to disagree with you, BSMS, far as advancing to a curb until a horse is correct in a snaffle, at least to where any of those detailed bit functions D.D discussed even have any significance.

It might have worked for you,as just recreational riding, your expectations don't need to be anywhere near that of someone competing at some upper discipline, where 'holes' in basics are more evident..."​This is partially correct. The difference in our views is rooted in the difference between our goals. Both goals are acceptable.

If the goal is to teach a horse how to move in a way that will win a western pleasure competition, or a dressage competition, or a reining competition, then it might well need to learn a huge amount of stuff in a snaffle before moving to a curb. But if the goal is a horse who moves out well on a trail, who understands his rider and who can be ridden with minimal fuss, then a few weeks of snaffle training can suffice.

Consider Trooper. His initial training involved a snaffle, but he quickly moved on to a curb. When my friend hired sheepherders from Peru or Chile, the herders had often never been on a horse before. They got 5-10 minutes of instruction in my friend's broken Spanish, and then went out and herded sheep, on horseback, often for 12+ hour days - using Trooper in a curb.

And it worked, because herding sheep doesn't require flying lead changes, or collected gaits, or sliding stops. A sheepherder can easily be taught "Move your hand right to go right. Move your hand left to go left. Move your hand back to stop. Keep slack in the reins all the rest of the time." A horse can learn that too - easily. Using a curb bit. 

In fact, when I visited ranches in my youth, that was pretty much the instruction I got - before riding a horse in a curb bit. That was the advice I gave to a guy who had never ridden before he rode Trooper for two hours in the desert - although with a snaffle.

In the thread Daniel had about neck reining, what Daniel was teaching was neck reining for a purpose I didn't share. It made for interesting viewing, but I felt no need to go try it. It made a lot of sense for what he needs, and it probably makes a lot of sense to folks from a variety of styles of riding, but it simply isn't needed for what I enjoy. So I viewed it, learned something interesting, and walked away.

Curb bits are a little different to me because I've taken a lot of heat for using one without first trying to get Mia perfect in a snaffle. Heck, I've had a lot of folks say I was doing what Smilie says - using pain and intimidation to get a temporary obedience that she would soon run through.

But that is not what happened. The facts disagree with the theory. I was not using pain and intimidation to teach her. A curb bit, if understood, has NOTHING to do with pain, and everything to do with 2 important items:1 - The pressure is applied to the bars and the tongue, and the horse cannot switch the pressure to the molars - she MUST get release from the rider.

2 - If you do not snatch on the reins, the horse ALWAYS gets a no-pressure warning prior to any pressure. Being practical animals, they soon decide they prefer to obey BEFORE pressure rather than AFTER pressure.​For a lowly recreational rider, that really is all it takes. They are as simple and as effective as that. I can't speak to using them to teach collection, since I don't desire collected gaits. I can't speak to using them to teach flying lead changes, because my horses & I don't do flying lead changes. But if your goals are to be able to communicate "Go left / Go right / Stop / Move ahead" - then a curb is an easy tool for teaching and riding a horse. A gentle, no or low pressure way, and one that stays out of the mouth as much as the horse will let you do so.

They are not cruel. They are not harsh. They do not work through "pain" and "intimidation". Neither do snaffles. Unless, of course, one resorts to those bits whose design IS based on the ability to hurt the horse - but there are plenty of safe, effective and gentle mouthpieces.

Riding horses is like playing a guitar. It can be very simple, or very hard, and neither route is wrong. You can learn to strum a few chords in one lesson, and you can learn to ride a horse in one lesson. Or you can spend a lifetime and not master either fully. I ride at the "strum a few chords" level...and curb bits are an option for me. Not "The Answer", but an option.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

karliejaye, this comment comes from a "strum a few chords" kind of guy. It is very likely that you ride better than I do. So please take it with a big, steaming cup of FWIW:

The balance of a curb bit is pretty simple. If the horse normally carries his head near the vertical - through training - then a curb bit with straight shanks will balance well. The weight of the slack reins will place the far end of the bit directly under the mouthpiece - and that will form a vertical line. Thus the "neutral position" leaves the bit needing to rotate thru 45-60 degrees before pressure is applied to the mouth.

If the horse carries its head at a 45 deg angle - what I desire for trail riding - then a shank that bends 45 degrees will put the far end of the shank directly under the mouthpiece - where the weight of the slack reins will pull it anyways. The neutral position then still allows the bit to rotate 45-60 degrees before the curb strap tightens, so the horse gets a warning before getting pressure.

What folks need to avoid is what I did out of ignorance with Mia, and use a straight shank bit with a horse who carries her head at 45 degrees. By doing that, the weight of the reins rotated the bit 45 degrees with no input from me. So when I then took up the reins, Mia got pressure in her mouth immediately - without warning.

That was how I learned two things: the bit will rotate very freely in the mouth before the curb strap tightens, since the weight of the reins alone will do it. And I needed to use a bit with bent shanks so Mia could always get warning.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

The sweet water gag in question
In the balance pic ypu can see how far up the purchase the mouthpiece can go.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> Your enjoyment and the rules of etiquette need not be mutually exclusive. Just a thought...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What rules of etiquette are you talking about? This is a forum, people debate stuff, and Smilie was both polite and on topic. That is how forums work.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never seen a bit do this:










Does it do so in the horse's mouth, from rein action? If you stand next to your horse's head, and move the reins back like you would while riding, does it rise up? I normally think of gags as having a curve to encourage the mouthpiece to slide up as the sides are rotated.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

bsms said:


> I've never seen a bit do this
> 
> Does it do so in the horse's mouth, from rein action? If you stand next to your horse's head, and move the reins back like you would while riding, does it rise up? I normally think of gags as having a curve to encourage the mouthpiece to slide up as the sides are rotated.



It does, but not to that extent woth normal rein aids. He is very soft in the mouth so in all honesty the reins rarely get pulled back when I am riding properly. Problems arise when I revert to my English riding habits and ride on contact, then the gag does mildly engage. Please note even in a snaffle on contact I do not use heavy or unyielding contact.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

As to your question of the bit encouraging flexion behind the vertical, my short answer is probably. The neutral position of the bit would normally encourage one to be on the vertical. With the mouthpiece rotated in front of that "vertical balance" an advanced and obedient horse would be encouraged to flex a little more because the port would still be slightly engaged.
I said "probably" because taking all I just said into consideration, the mouthpiece is very open, offering lots of tongue relief, and very mild. So, it's degree of engagement would be marginal for all but the most sensitive and obedient horses.
As to the gag action, the sliding up the purchase is basically a changing degree of leverage. For instance, in the beginning stage of rotation, the bit will have maybe a 3:1 leverage ratio, but at whatever amount of pressure is required, the mouthpiece will slide up escalating that leverage ratio to maybe 4.5:1. I haven't measured your cheek, so those numbers are purely for example. 

This bit looks deceptively simple, but quite a few things are actually taking place. 
I still would not consider this to be a harsh bit, but I would definitely characterize it as a niche type bit. I may also describe it as the answer to a question nobody asked. Probably 1 horse in 2000 has the specific combination of needs for this bit to be one I'd use. You sound like you know a fair bit, so I am not saying it is a trash bit. If it works, for you, on this horse, then it is just fine. If your horse is, however, trying to get behind the vertical in this bridle,or begins to with time, changing to a bit with a different balance and /or port position would be my first move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> What rules of etiquette are you talking about? This is a forum, people debate stuff, and Smilie was both polite and on topic. That is how forums work.


If she had watched it and questioned me as to something I had said or not explained to her satisfaction, I'd be happy to clarify. 

That is etiquette. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks Daniel! He is a very very sensitive and obedient horse (with the biggest, thickest tongue my vet has ever seen), and does tend to curl in this bit. Honestly I don't know why he's in that bit, he came with it and I didn't know much about curbs so I didn't want to fix what isn't broken.
But with my new knowledge and experience (4 years now with this horse) on Cruiser, I think I will continue with the snaffle for now. We trail ride and do some dressage and jumping for fun.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

karliejaye said:


> . . . curious about bit balance and its role because it is a new concept to me. Please don't assume that my question on balance and headset makes me an idiot riding front to back looking for a quick fix, please and thank you.


I'm curious too. Bit in checking the balance of the bit, wouldn't it be more accurate to hang it from the top rings, where the cheek pieces would attach? It's possible the bit would hang at a slightly different angle.

I have a couple of comments:
1) Bits CAN work as pain. When I first rode my new horse, because she was supposed to be a bucker, I had her in an English Tom Thumb pelham. IF she even THOUGHT about putting her head down to buck, I'm afraid I used it immediately: "NO!" I don't even remember using it more than once. Because it has two reins, I was able to gain confidence with just the snaffle, and it was no problem going to the French snaffle. 

2) I'd like to know the effect of the loose rein, as far as the movement of it. Reins tend to swing when loose, and I have some heavy reins (to help with teaching neck reining) and I sure hope the swinging doesn't become a problem! Haven't put them on yet. But anyone know or notice its effect?

3) I am also a "lowly recreational rider" --- but there are few places to ride a trail, and all require trailering or breaking fences. . . the arena (a cleared area in the pasture) is where we do what we do, mostly. We have to look at details, because, really, there's little else to see.  And I will add that yes, even the tiny local shows encourage you to do better. They DO raise the standards of your goals.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> Thanks Daniel! He is a very very sensitive and obedient horse (with the biggest, thickest tongue my vet has ever seen), and does tend to curl in this bit. Honestly I don't know why he's in that bit, he came with it and I didn't know much about curbs so I didn't want to fix what isn't broken.
> But with my new knowledge and experience (4 years now with this horse) on Cruiser, I think I will continue with the snaffle for now. We trail ride and do some dressage and jumping for fun.


A similarly shaped mouthpiece, which is in line with the purchase and has medium leverage would likely be just the ticket if and when you want to go beyond the snaffle. Best of luck! Thanks for the great question and that is an interesting bit you have there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Beling said:


> I'm curious too. Bit in checking the balance of the bit, wouldn't it be more accurate to hang it from the top rings, where the cheek pieces would attach? No. A horse properly carrying the bit should be carrying the weight of the bit with his tongue. This way, he will easily feel the bit's neutral balance position. If the bit is adjusted too tightly, where the bit is being held by the head stall, the bit is not balancing or working as designed. This is, unfortunately, relatively common but is only important on the more advanced end of riding.It's possible the bit would hang at a slightly different angle.
> 
> I have a couple of comments:
> 1) Bits CAN work as pain. When I first rode my new horse, because she was supposed to be a bucker, I had her in an English Tom Thumb pelham. IF she even THOUGHT about putting her head down to buck, I'm afraid I used it immediately: "NO!" I don't even remember using it more than once. Because it has two reins, I was able to gain confidence with just the snaffle, and it was no problem going to the French snaffle. You are correct. When I talk about a bit having some "bite", this is what I mean. Sometimes, we just need to discourage a behavior.
> ...


It is perfectly fine that many of us have different goals and styles. As long as you are happy and safe, and your horse is happy and safe, I am happy. Hopefully, most of us are actively working toward something. We should focus more on commonalities than differences. MOST of the actively competing Amateurs I know were once "lowly recreational riders." Not a thing wrong with enjoying recreational riding at all. I still try and have those rides too, and don't have nearly as many of those rides as I'd like.


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## PetrosPlantation (Oct 28, 2015)

*changing bits*



DanielDauphin said:


> Is finally up! Hope y'all enjoy. Let me know what y'all think!
> https://youtu.be/vDnhyqCCOeI


Great video series! I've found a ton of information on moving horses from snaffles to curb bits but almost nothing on the reverse. I'm going to start leasing a horse in January, she currently takes a twisted wire argentine snaffle (not a true snaffle I know). I'd like to get her into a true snaffle as she knows how to neck rein, responds to my seat and voice commands beautifully. Any tips on making the transition go smoothly?


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

It shouldn't really be an issue, especially if you and the horse both understand how your body controls his. If you do find that the horse is not as responsive to the snaffle, going back to lateral flexion and one rein control would be my advice. A twisted wire Argentine can have quite a bit of bite, so you may well see this horse relax quite a bit. Best of luck, and if you do hit a more specific issue, I'll be glad to help.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I like the image of "white noise." Thanks, Daniel. (With a lazy horse, leg aids can soon become "white noise"---don't I know it!)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is a graph of rein pressure using an experienced dressage rider. Notice the "white noise". I don't use contact, but the combination of my reins and trigger snaps certainly creates "white noise":


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Interesting! That's a lot of fluctuating pressure going on, when "on contact"--- I like to think I have a lighter, more even contact. (I'm sure I'm not more even; but I don't think my "contact" is quite so firm.)

It looks to me as if, after the half-halt, rather than a release given, that the horse has come behind the bit for a moment. But what do I know? I guess it would be neat to watch a video at the same time.

Any graphs on a dangling, LOOSE rein, like you'd have when riding Western/trail?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ No. I'd love to see one. My guess is that those of us who use trigger snaps would see more "white noise" than those with leather attachments, but I also suspect the amount of noise from slack reins might surprise some of us western riders!

FWIW, all of my backyard horses seem to prefer trotting or cantering with a little slack. Given a choice between cantering with contact and "draped reins", they act happier with contact. Of course, it could be there is something wrong with how I do draped reins, since I rarely do them at all. 

The author of the study the picture comes from concluded what Gen Harry Chamberlin concluded in the 30s - that horses care less about pressure in their mouth than they do about UNSTEADY pressure. I don't remember the exact quote, but Chamberlin said something about a horse would prefer a heavy hand to an unstable hand. As a backyard rider, that is what I try to concentrate on. Stable AND light may take me longer to achieve.


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