# Surcingle VS. side reins/saddle?



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I get a lot of use out of my surcingle when I have a horse coming back into work, as they can comfortably use their back without the added weight of a saddle. 
Surcingles also allow the user to alter the angle to which they attach side reins, when the horse becomes more advanced one can attached the reins to a higher ring to encourage a more advanced 'frame', you can also long rein far more efficiently using a surcingle. 
Really it depends why you're lunging your mare. If it's just a quick pre-ride lunge to warm her back up and tune her mind in, you are perfectly fine attaching the side reins to the girth  

A side note here not totally related, but by the looks of your horse I would probably not be using side reins at this stage. Your horse appears (and I could be totally wrong, a photo is only a millisecond snapshot of the horse's position) but it appears to have the tendency to duck a little behind the contact and thus shorten the neck, which results in a dip where the wither joins the neck. I would be investing in something like a Pessoa system, which encourages the horse to stretch out and down from the wither while engaging the hindquarters, side reins have the same purpose, but the Pessoa is a little more user friendly than side reins, which require a very good 'feel' and 'eye' for when and how to drive the horse up into the contact, they are quite a tricky tool to use correctly, and if not used correctly they offer very little advantage, rather than may be a disadvantage. I would really like to see your horse working with it's nose on the ground, tracking up and stretching nice and long from the wither


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Why the need to use either? A horse can be taught collection without any of those tools. All I see in the pic is a horse with its head tied down rather than a collected horse.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Alex S, the aim is not to 'teach collection' unless you think of collection as a horse having its head 'down'? 
I lunge in side reins because they offer an outside rein and contact for the horse to work into. Without a contact the energy you create in the hind quarters is merely lost from the outside shoulder, creating a crooked horse that is on the forehand, thus lunging becomes entirely pointless unless lunging a very green horse with which you are only teaching voice aids and having it learn to go forward. 

Side reins/pessoa's can be a very good tool for teaching a horse to use its back and 'connect' from the hind end to the forehand. It is all good and well to 'poo poo' these aids if you have only had a limited and short sighted experience with their use, but if you look further into why they are used you will discover that in fact, they are very helpful and do NOT force the horse into submission unless being misused. 
The OP's horse appears to need some help to learn how to use it's body and build topline, and I do not believe that the OP has the experience, from the little I have read of their posts, to have the feel, timing and overall knowledge to assist this horse under saddle with developing swing and stretch over the back. In this case, I think the use of a pessoa in particular will be very helpful.
It's all good and well to preach that each and every rider should never use these aids to assist them, and that they should be able to do it with their own riding ability under saddle. But I feel that is like saying every netball player should be able to shoot goals with a 95% accuracy whether they are a goal shooter or a defence player. The reality is that not everybody is up to the level of riding where they understand how to create a soft, swinging back and connection to develop topline and strength across the whole body, eventually leading to collection (dressage collection, not just the 'on the bit' version), not because they are a 'bad rider' but because it takes years of training and education to really get the idea, and even then some people just don't ever understand how to do it.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Kayty, you make several reasonable points which I agree with. 




Kayty said:


> and I do not believe that the OP has the experience, from the little I have read of their posts, to have the feel, timing and overall knowledge to assist this horse under saddle with developing swing and stretch over the back.


I am not familiar with the OP and I do not know her history, however there seems to be an awful lot of people who throw on side reins to get a headset. 
If I was wrong in my reaction, I apologize.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Thats ok, I completely understand where you are coming from and 100% agree that there are far too many people who jump straight in and throw on a pair of sidereins to jam the horse's head down and make it look 'pretty' and 'collected'. I believe however in this case, that the OP has a little more sense than that. The side reins in the photo shown are not jamming the horse's head to it's chest, the mouth is relaxed and it does not show much tension, but also appears to be the sort of horse that will evade the contact by ducking behind it, as can be seen by the significant dip at the wither/neck, hence why I believe a pessoa may be of more use in this instance


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks, and my apologies to Rachel for assuming that you were like the rest of them!


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

Thank you both for your reply, this photo was taken on 10/10, which if i remember correctly was one of the first, if not the first time my trainer used side reins on Bella, she's improved a lot since then, My trainer was great with her, she was coming out and working with her about 4 times a week, but sadly my trainer moved back to Michigan the end of November, so now i'm on my own, she taught me a lot in the short time that we worked together, but i don't know a whole lot about english, i started riding when i was about 11-12(i'm almost 25) but i was a self taught western rider, when i got pregnant and i had my son i didn't ride for almost 3 years so i'm still trying to built up my confidence, and balance, especially in a dressage saddle lol, so as of right now i've only walked and done a tiny bit of trotting on Bella, she is a pretty forward horse and much bigger then the 14.2hh arab/quarter i learned on, so it's been a slow journey for me to get up to the point where i feel confident enough to even ride her(she was a wild woman before Brittany started training her) She has made AMAZING progress , when i got her at the end of may i couldn't even lead her, she would just run circles around me and practically push me over, now she leads perfectly and is great under saddle, very collected at all the gaits, It's going to be difficult working without Brittany, i wish i could find another trainer, but everyone around here charges 50+ an hour to come to you, Brittany only charged me 20 a session and she would often be out there 3 or more hours with me....sorry for the ramble, i ramble when i'm stressed, and the thought of not having Brittany come out and help me stresses me out lol...Kayty, what is the pessoa? i tried to search it on horse.com and couldn't find it, Thanks


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Just put pessoa training system into google and you'll find a heap of information on it. 
http://www.englishridingsupply.com/files/ssparagraph/f233191508/pessoa_system.pdf

Other brands also make them for cheaper, Kincade for example, just a matter of hunting around. Maybe even try ebay


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

When i lunge i dont use side reins, side reins dont let the horse move freely. I use elastics that go from the girth up through the chest to the bit and back to the saddle. They let the horse stretch but also keep them in frame. i noticed it helped my horse alot because he as a very soft mouth and took awhile accepting contact. so the elastics had contact but didnt retrict him from bending and stretching (and also leaning on the bit)


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

xXEventerXx... have you ever used or seen side reins being used CORRECTLY? Obviously not. They do not restrict the horses movement, go and have a look at some of the top dressage horses in the world being lunged... side reins... and does their movement look restricted? Not in a million years. It's all good and well to lunge with nothing for short periods of time, but there is no connection from hind quarters to bit, and without that connection, the horse is going to be crooked, over-bent laterally, dropping out of the shoulder or leaning on the inside shoulder much like a motor bike going around a sharp bend, putting excess straight on joints and developing incorrect and asymmetrical muscling which then leads to chiropractic problems. 
Every training tool has it's place if used correctly. What you use is the equivalent to draw reins, which, in the wrong hands are far more damaging than side reins. Draw reins encourage the horse to drop behind the contact even more so than side reins do when not being used correctly.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Just put pessoa training system into google and you'll find a heap of information on it.
> http://www.englishridingsupply.com/files/ssparagraph/f233191508/pessoa_system.pdf
> 
> Other brands also make them for cheaper, Kincade for example, just a matter of hunting around. Maybe even try ebay



OH ok, i saw that in a catalog before, it looks kinda complicated to use lol, i've just been looking around and i can't find one for less then $100, and most just include the roping system, not even the surcingle, i saw one this one Rope and Pulley Training aid RRP £69 100s sold - eBay (item 160447728878 end time Dec-18-10 12:57:12 PST)
but i don't know how much it would be to ship to the usa so i sent them an e-mail, if shipping isn't too much then i will order it


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Just put pessoa training system into google and you'll find a heap of information on it.
> http://www.englishridingsupply.com/files/ssparagraph/f233191508/pessoa_system.pdf
> 
> Other brands also make them for cheaper, Kincade for example, just a matter of hunting around. Maybe even try ebay


I heard somewhere around here that the pessoa system has the one flaw of pulling on the bit every time a hind leg extends back, ultimately "see sawing" the bit. Is this correct?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Not from what I've seen of it being used


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Not from what I've seen of it being used


I trust you. It just seems to make sense from the way its connected, and I'm wondering why it wouldn't. Just not make the buttstrap (I know there's a fancy term...I'm blanking) too tight?


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

So...question.

If you were starting a horse from scratch and they had a tendency to brace against the bit, but were still relatively soft (kinda hard to explain...she does brace initially, but has learned that with steady contact, maybe 3 seconds, to give very quickly) what would you do?

I want to start lunging her to build her muscles which are lacking so that she will be able to physically collect when I ask her. I have side reins as well as draw reins (and I have used draw reins before and know how they work and affect the horse). My instinct tells me with this horse to use side reins first on a looser setting until she develops more muscle and more give and stops the initial bracing. The last thing I want her to do is try and brace against draw reins.

Thoughts?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I wouldn't put draw reins on her if she gives quickly to pressure, or you may well end up teaching her to come behind the vertical to avoid the bit. 
Side reins I think would be your better option, or you could try a pessoa system which I also like to use, they are much better than side reins for a beginner/someone that has not used side reins extensively. The pessoa system is on a pulley system, so that the contact remains stable, there is a strap that goes behind the horse's hind quarters to encourage them to bring the hind legs further under their body, and when used nice and low, between the front legs and to the girth, they greatly encourage the horse to stretch and lower the head and neck from the wither, which will help hugely to build and improve topline. 
If you want to stick to sidereins though that's fine, use them so that they have a contact, they're not just flapping around in the wind doing nothing, but not pulling her head in. At the moment you want her to stretch out and down from the wither, so keeping them at a fairly long length will help, but you will need to be very conscious of working her hind legs up to meet that contact, or there will be nothing achieved through lunging.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for the advice Kayty! I rode her again last night and have just been keeping light contact with her. 

I have decided that I think using draw reins on her would not be the best idea due to how sensitive she is. I will say that I am a little leery of using side reins right now too though. The reason is because she is VERY fidgety. At the walk her head is constantly moving. Up, down, up, down. There are times where she will pull and brace pretty hard, but I will just sit deep in the saddle and slowly apply pressure until she gives, then release.

I know with time she will quiet down and stop fussing so much. I just really dont want her to fuss and brace and such with side reins...I think it may freak her out.

Do you think I should just continue working with her as I am currently until she calms her head movement down a little?

Just want to add that at the trot, her head movement is much calmer. She is a very forward mover, even at the walk, and it seems easier for her to give or collect (even a _tiny _bit) with a more forward pace. I am SURE of the fact that her muscles are not conditioned for this as well which leads me to think that side reins may be a little too much for her right now...


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