# What kind of craziness has entered my ears this time..



## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Another question for you all, regarding a trainer I recently watched train her horses.

She believed that it is more beneficial to a horses success, to do most of it's training at the end of a line. All she would really do is long line the horse in a round pen. She claimed it taught softness and acceptance of the bridle, even though the horse would pull like heck at the end of the lines.
Then for the riding, she would use a western saddle on saddle seat horses since it is better for their back. In addition, the horse would have a twisted wire bit in (which changed ride to ride, never the same, consistent bit), with the reins running through a martingale, similar to this: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Perfection Training Martingale
On top of that, there would be draw reins. The rider would have 2 sets of reins. 

Now tell me, is this kind of training, actually good training? Because all that runs through my mind is that the martingale and draw reins are creating holes in the training, and that the lunging is killing the horses joints and mouth for that matter..


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## phoquess (May 30, 2013)

Inconsistency is bad. If she's supposed to be teaching softness and acceptance, an the horses always pull, then she's not teaching very effectively, sounds like. I think martingales and draw reins have their place, and their place is not all the time every time. Honestly I can't say I'm a fan of this trainer's methods at all, and that's putting it lightly.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Does the martingale have the running attachment as well or is it more like this
http://images02.sstack.weblinc.com/resources/sstack/images/products/processed/01446.a.zoom.jpg

The draw reins seem excessive, I agree. The twisted snaffle may also be excessive if she's being rough with it. Long lining itself is not a bad thing and useful for "riding" a horse without actually riding. I know many trainers that will long line prior to riding, especially young/green horses and as a random refresher with the seasoned horses. The Western saddle in place of the cutback is irrelevant for the most part. I do agree that she's missing something if the horse is still pulling with no overall improvement. I always ride/school with a martingale like the one I posted, but it has 10 rings for flexibility. My horse is also young, green, and can get his head high if he's frustrated or working through something. That makes it more difficult to help him work through it if I'm trying to not get knocked out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

SEAmom said:


> Does the martingale have the running attachment as well or is it more like this
> http://images02.sstack.weblinc.com/resources/sstack/images/products/processed/01446.a.zoom.jpg
> 
> The draw reins seem excessive, I agree. The twisted snaffle may also be excessive if she's being rough with it. Long lining itself is not a bad thing and useful for "riding" a horse without actually riding. I know many trainers that will long line prior to riding, especially young/green horses and as a random refresher with the seasoned horses. The Western saddle in place of the cutback is irrelevant for the most part. I do agree that she's missing something if the horse is still pulling with no overall improvement. I always ride/school with a martingale like the one I posted, but it has 10 rings for flexibility. My horse is also young, green, and can get his head high if he's frustrated or working through something. That makes it more difficult to help him work through it if I'm trying to not get knocked out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yeah it's a martingale like that. I went over to ride my friends horse, and I was expecting a cutback saddle and the double bridle I used to ride the horse in, and they threw all this stuff on. I was completely dumbfounded.

The trainer herself is VERY rough on the horses' mouths, so I really don't see how these horses improve. The horse I rode did have a load of improvement from the last time I rode her, but I'm waiting for one day when they don't have all the "extra" junk on, and something goes wrong.

As for the long lining, it seemed like it was just something to take the place of actual riding. With my knowledge of their trainer, they long lined probably over 85% of the time, and the rest was riding. Now as for my horse, long lining and riding would be 2 completely different things. My horse as an individual, it wouldn't matter if he was a perfect horse under long lining, I would still have to work hard under saddle to keep him good.

Maybe it's just me personally that sees a problem with this training method since the whole time I've been into horses, I trained only under saddle.. Who knows


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I personally think long lining a horse is very beneficial. I also see nothing wrong with using that type of martingale. I do think anyone that is jerking on a horses mouth has issues but... I guess I would have to see it first hand to make any statements about that. I think working a horse in more then one way is beneficial but one must also be consistent in the way the horse is worked. You can do that and still work from the ground and the horses back.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Just based on your description, you couldn't pay me enough money to let her touch one of my horses.

Sure, martingales and draw reins and twisted bits have their place, but not all together and not on every single horse...not even on _most_ horses.

It sounds like she's just one that "trains" through brute force and while I'm not a touchy-feely trainer, I completely disagree with most of what she's said.

The whole thing about long-lining is semi-true. It does greatly benefit a horse...if done correctly. Allowing the horse to pull on the lines all the time is only teaching the horse to have a hard mouth and be resistant.

Whether a western saddle is better on their back or not is debatable. The only thing a western saddle does differently than an english style is to spread the weight over more surface area...but it depends on whether the saddle actually fits or not.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When the horse is pulling on the lunge, have you noticed it's head is turned away. It wants out of there. When it presents it's jaw it's attention on the handler is gone. She needs to rethink how she does this to keep the horse focused on forward movement, not fighting her. With her choice of bits and martingale she is attempting a head set but it is a false one. A good head set starts with the engine and collection with finesse from the bridle.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

She wanted me to be one of her stablehands, and after seeing all that, I told her I would think about it.. I never talked to her again.

Another thing she did, while trainer her halter horse, was unimaginable. She would have a chain on him, and carry a long lunge whip. She would go to set the horse up, and when he was stretching good (to my standards) she would yank on the chain to get his attention on her. If his ears went back or he still wasn't "perfect" the lunge whip would be snapped at his sides... This horse had PURE TERROR in his eyes, and was scared to death to be near her.. I've never seen something so terrible in my life


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> She wanted me to be one of her stablehands, and after seeing all that, I told her I would think about it.. I never talked to her again.
> 
> Another thing she did, while trainer her halter horse, was unimaginable. She would have a chain on him, and carry a long lunge whip. She would go to set the horse up, and when he was stretching good (to my standards) she would yank on the chain to get his attention on her. If his ears went back or he still wasn't "perfect" the lunge whip would be snapped at his sides... This horse had PURE TERROR in his eyes, and was scared to death to be near her.. I've never seen something so terrible in my life


Oooooh, this is making my blood boil!! How awesome it would be if an Animal Control Officer had been "discretely and anonymously" (are you following me here?) called to witness this act.....


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Northernstar said:


> Oooooh, this is making my blood boil!! How awesome it would be if an Animal Control Officer had been "discretely and anonymously" (are you following me here?) called to witness this act.....



If I return there, I probably will. My friend didn't even blink an eye at this since shes been around it so long. I hate how all these unacceptable things be considered acceptable when its done by someone higher than you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

That last one I'm not sure why any blood would boil, but I know different people have different opinions. I think it's probably a good idea not to work with her in the long run, though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cb06 (Dec 30, 2012)

Do you have much experience around a saddle seat training barn? I ask, because most of what you describe is not unusual and when done correctly not in the least bit cruel.

Long-lining a young horse for a short period of time is very common and IS very good for teaching the horse to give to the bit and learn voice commands before introducing a saddle. Most are actually driven as the next step in training, prior to riding, to build additional muscle before introducing a riders weight.

A running martingale with two sets of reins are also standard training equipment. Saddle seat horses are usually only ridden in a double bridle a couple times a week to keep them fresh and responsive to it. 

Adding draw reins on top of a running martingale is not normal. (I've never seen that type of set-up used..never). Are you sure that is what you saw? If so, that would be excessive.

Twisted wire snaffle (or a double twisted wire snaffle) also normal and in the proper hands nothing wrong with it. Should not be used roughly. We like the horse to be light and response in the bridle, not hanging on the bit.

Western saddle on a young horse, also normal in a lot of barns...just easier to deal with any young horse shenanigans.

Chain over the nose, normal..just keeps the horses attention on the handler when used correctly. Cracking a whip near a horse to focus it's attention also not unusual. Was the horse plunging around out of control on the end of the line or just alert and on his toes? There is a difference. I am betting the horse was just alert (wide-eyed). It would make no sense to crack a whip near a horse that was truely scared. 

Just some things to think about. None of these training practices are cruel or unusual when done properly...just may look unusual if you have never seen them or understand the purpose.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

cb06 said:


> Do you have much experience around a saddle seat training barn? I ask, because most of what you describe is not unusual and when done correctly not in the least bit cruel.
> 
> Long-lining a young horse for a short period of time is very common and IS very good for teaching the horse to give to the bit and learn voice commands before introducing a saddle. Most are actually driven as the next step in training, prior to riding, to build additional muscle before introducing a riders weight.
> 
> ...



The martingale was like the one pictured, with regular reins through it. The draw reins are seperate. They told me what they were doing while tacking up, and said that the draw reins would help my dressage horse with his head. I just said uh-huh. This trainer is not light handed. A lot of jerking goes on when riding the horses, and when I rode one, she said I wasn't jerking hard enough, while my hand were hurting.

The long lining I for sure know about was being done on a 18 year old mare, that has minor joint problems. They jerk on their mouths while doing that too.

With the halter training, the chain was under the nose, so whenever the chain was yanked HARD, the horse threw it's head up in pain and fear. The whip was making contact, multiple times. At the end of the session, there was lines from the whip down his side. This horse was not "alert", he was terrified. When she was walking back to his stall, I could tell how stressed and fearful he was just by how he was walking. This was by no means "training", this was downright cruelty. I know it happens in other barns, but it was like really? The trainer had 2 stablehands watching and learning that this was right.

At the arab shows I go to, I'm fine with people chasing their horses with plastic bags, because it's not making contact. But whips? Unacceptable


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I get my horse's sides and front legs with the halter whip when we're doing halter work, too. Any halter trainer I've seen does this. Not welt hard, but you still see lines. We use the chain under the jaw for practice, and there's a chain on the show halter as well. I've had to jerk pretty hard on many chains on many horses. They're much bigger andi want them thinking at all times that I'm the boss no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I find that a peppermint wrapper gets that wide eyed excited look better than anything scary, and gentle tugs and taps and lots of repetition are easier to understand when teaching them to park out. That is such an easy thing to teach, it saddens me to hear it and see it. You won't read techniques like that in Jim Aikman's(THE baby guy in Saddlebreds) training manuals. Being gentle also makes that situation when you have to snatch them around, or smack them, or anything of the sort much more effective. If all they know is jerking and snatching and whipping, then the horse won't know the difference.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> The martingale was like the one pictured, with regular reins through it. The draw reins are seperate. They told me what they were doing while tacking up, and said that the draw reins would help my dressage horse with his head. I just said uh-huh. This trainer is not light handed. A lot of jerking goes on when riding the horses, and when I rode one, she said I wasn't jerking hard enough, while my hand were hurting.
> 
> The long lining I for sure know about was being done on a 18 year old mare, that has minor joint problems. They jerk on their mouths while doing that too.
> 
> ...


I hope with all my heart you can just get out of that place soon - there's no one in the world that can convince me this is nothing more than abuse. Firmness is one thing, abusing a horse is another. Shame on her for inflicting such pain on these beautiful horses.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Northernstar said:


> I hope with all my heart you can just get out of that place soon - there's no one in the world that can convince me this is nothing more than abuse. Firmness is one thing, abusing a horse is another. Shame on her for inflicting such pain on these beautiful horses.


I will never go back. As much as I would like to ride and show those arabs, I will not watch her abuse them ever again, without calling animal control


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You need to decide what type of horses handling and training you want to be involved in. What you are describing is very typical of what I have seen at some well-known high placing Saddlebred and Arabian Barns. I trained Arabians to ride Western and showed at the Arabian Nationals in Stock Horse (actually just Arabian reining at that time) and trail and I refused to show halter horses or ride Park or English horses. I hated the methods and I hated the results and had nothing to do with them.

In the early 'pre Doc Bar' days I also refused to work on or around cutting horses and still will not work around some cutting horse trainers. All of the 'old' trainers and way too many of the current ones do not think they are getting enough done if blood is not running down a horse's shoulders when they get off.

If you want to know why the old cutting horse trainers hated palomino and gray horses (only rode sorrels, bays, browns and blacks), it is because the blood and the scars showed too easily on them. Most of the 'flunk-outs' I got from cutting trainers had life-long scars on their shoulders. 

You get involved and you learn methods doing things you like and handling and training the kinds of horses you like. If you hate racing --- don't get involved in the business. If you hate the methods you are describing --- stay away from Saddleseat Arabian and Saddlebred trainers. If you do not like World class Western Pleasure horses, stay out of the business. If you find the practices unacceptable that are used with the 'big lick' Walking Horses, stay away from the Walking Horse Show barns and stay out of the business. 

You will find that 'a horse' is not just 'a horse'. The 'specialized horses' showing in the 'specialized events' all have their extreme methods that are unacceptable to many horse enthusiasts. Most, like myself, gravitate to the kinds of horses, uses and methods that we like. I am perfectly happy training ranch horses, cow horses and good trail horses. Life is too short (and you would not get good at it anyway) to train for events you do not like or use methods you do not want to use.

If you want to get into any kind of high level showing, spend a bunch of time around the shows and pay a lot of attention to what you see in the warm-up pens and in the back lots and unwatched area. You will see what it is taking to be competitive in that event. It will not look like the pretty finished horses you see in the show ring. You will find what it takes to be competitive in that event and you will have to decide if it is what you want.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

KylieHuitema said:


> Another question for you all, regarding a trainer I recently watched train her horses.
> 
> She believed that it is more beneficial to a horses success, to do most of it's training at the end of a line. All she would really do is long line the horse in a round pen. She claimed it taught softness and acceptance of the bridle, even though the horse would pull like heck at the end of the lines.
> Then for the riding, she would use a western saddle on saddle seat horses since it is better for their back. In addition, the horse would have a twisted wire bit in (which changed ride to ride, never the same, consistent bit), with the reins running through a martingale, similar to this: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Perfection Training Martingale
> ...


That doesnt sound like someone I would want to send my horse to. You should always be starting a horse with a very gentle bit and work your way up if needed, but never start off with a twist of any kind. Martingale? it sounds to me like this trainer is afraid to get on a green horse and afraid to lose control. Drawn reins are a training aid for horses who are seasoned and used for warmups or fine tuning, not a brand new green horse who isn't broke to ride. Even tho I agree lunging serves a purpose, it should not be the main method of training when breaking a horse to ride.

This trainer sounds scary. I suggest finding someone else love.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

My2Geldings said:


> That doesnt sound like someone I would want to send my horse to. You should always be starting a horse with a very gentle bit and work your way up if needed, but never start off with a twist of any kind. Martingale? it sounds to me like this trainer is afraid to get on a green horse and afraid to lose control. Drawn reins are a training aid for horses who are seasoned and used for warmups or fine tuning, not a brand new green horse who isn't broke to ride. Even tho I agree lunging serves a purpose, it should not be the main method of training when breaking a horse to ride.
> 
> This trainer sounds scary. I suggest finding someone else love.


I am staying far, far away from her. She invited me and my friend on a trail ride, and my eyes just got wide.. I was only imagining her riding her horse with the draw reins and martingale on a trail ride.. I politely declined.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

KylieHuitema said:


> I am staying far, far away from her. She invited me and my friend on a trail ride, and my eyes just got wide.. I was only imagining her riding her horse with the draw reins and martingale on a trail ride.. I politely declined.


LOL good for you. You seem to have the same sense of humour I have.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

KylieHuitema said:


> Another question for you all, regarding a trainer I recently watched train her horses.
> 
> She believed that it is more beneficial to a horses success, to do most of it's training at the end of a line. All she would really do is long line the horse in a round pen. She claimed it taught softness and acceptance of the bridle, even though the horse would pull like heck at the end of the lines.
> Then for the riding, she would use a western saddle on saddle seat horses since it is better for their back. In addition, the horse would have *a twisted wire bit in (which changed ride to ride, never the same, consistent bit), with the reins running through a martingale*, similar to this: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Perfection Training Martingale
> ...


*These are the things I find unacceptable.*
There is no need for a twisted wire bit. period. Also with a bit that strong, a martingale and draw reins are redundant and very harsh.

So no, this is not good training.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

palogal said:


> *These are the things I find unacceptable.*
> There is no need for a twisted wire bit. period. Also with a bit that strong, a martingale and draw reins are redundant and very harsh.
> 
> So no, this is not good training.



The thing that got me is that my friend's horse worked in a smooth snaffle before this trainer and now only can work in a twisted wire.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

KylieHuitema said:


> The thing that got me is that my friend's horse worked in a smooth snaffle before this trainer and now only can work in a twisted wire.


Wow. Time to have the horse retrained by someone that knows what they're doing. No pleasure riding horse needs a twisted wire unless there are serious training issues.

I've used one twisted wire once in 20 years and believe me, I needed it. I had a horse that would root so bad he'd pull your shoulders out of the socket and then when he threw you onto his forehand he'd buck and send you over his head. Two days with a twisted wire and he was over it and riding in a snaffle.


I don't even know of any show riders that use a twisted wire, even for jumping. I know some barrel racers that use some pretty heavy metal but that's an entirely different deal with them.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

palogal said:


> Wow. Time to have the horse retrained by someone that knows what they're doing. No pleasure riding horse needs a twisted wire unless there are serious training issues.
> 
> I've used one twisted wire once in 20 years and believe me, I needed it. I had a horse that would root so bad he'd pull your shoulders out of the socket and then when he threw you onto his forehand he'd buck and send you over his head. Two days with a twisted wire and he was over it and riding in a snaffle.
> 
> ...



I only use a twisted wire on my horses in speed just for a little bit of safety in case something happens. One of my horses runs through the bit in speed.. Which resulted in running into the gate at the end of one of our runs... Twice. 

My thinking is, if you have to practically abuse the horse to "train" them, then why do it?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Although I don't have an answer to your question....These kind of 'trainers' make me a lot of money when the owner finally looks for a real trainer


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Just by reading your first message I can say she knows pretty much nothing. I would never use her until she got some serious knowledge and actually knew how to train


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Tons and tons of people send her horses to be trained. I just learned that one of the western horses she was training, ended up bleeding from the mouth. My friend said "she had it coming".. I guess this trainer brainwashes people too..

On a side note, I put a double bridle on my horse for the first time yesterday to practice saddleseat and he held his head in a nice headset without twisted bits, draw reins and martingales... Isn't that just interesting? Proves that all that stuff isn't needed for a good, trained horse.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I know a trainer who brain washes people. She dose 'Clinton Anderson' style training. To my knowledge he dose not ride in kinberwicks and beat the ever-loving snot out of the horses. She hit this poor gelding (who is as sweet as can be) untill he had no hair/skin on his chest anymore. She was making him walk backwards around all the stalls and hitting him every time he jumped (he was getting bit by the other horses). Every horse she works with wants to kill her. Normally calm sweet horses start to charge, scream and kick at her after a week of working with them 0.0 and thats just on the lunge line! Yeah and everyone thinks shes not abusive and that she is the cats meow. I stopped being friends with people who work with her now as I can't stand the abuse. (and she had been known to 'work' peoples horses without their consent before.)


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Wow. I just had a conversation with one of my campers (I'm a counselor at an equestrian camp) about her new horse's "training". If you weren't in Michigan I'd expect my camper's "trainer" was the same as the one you met!

The horse is a 3-year OTTB (not an appropriate horse for a 12 yr old, IMO) and is being trained in a twisted wire bit, tie-down, draw reins, and a running martingale. Let me say that NO, I have not seen the horse, so obviously it could be exaggerated, but this is what I was told. Apparently they put something new on every time he acts up. According to another camper who rides at the same farm, the horse's mouth is bloody after every training "session". It made me pretty sick to my stomach, and I gave the camper's mom my own trainer's number. I really don't understand the point putting tons of equipment on a horse in training.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Today I got to experience more "quick fixes" from a different trainer. The rider was on a speed horse, that if it wasn't running, it was hopping around/small rearing in one spot due to the rider. I sat there watching, thinking what I would do. This horse doesn't get walked around during our speed practices, just ran and then has to stand, and run again. The rider always has the reins tight when she is standing, in attempt to keep her still. It's really hard to describe. My horse used to do it too when we would run, and then stand, and repeat until I started doing small exercises in between to keep his mind busy. 

As soon as she got fed up with attempting to control the horse, she hopped off crying, and her mom fetched a tie down. Didn't help of course. Her dad then got on and got that horse to stand. Relaxed, fine. He only did one thing that I wouldn't really agree with, which was when the horse started jumping around, he grabbed her ear and twisted it. It automatically ended the problem though.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My bf has only done that with a runaway horse. If he cant get it to stop any other way it works. I don't agree with it ether though. Someone twitched my mare once and i flipped. took forever to be able to touch her ears again -_-'


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

EliRose said:


> Wow. I just had a conversation with one of my campers (I'm a counselor at an equestrian camp) about her new horse's "training". If you weren't in Michigan I'd expect my camper's "trainer" was the same as the one you met!
> 
> The horse is a 3-year OTTB (not an appropriate horse for a 12 yr old, IMO) and is being trained in a twisted wire bit, tie-down, draw reins, and a running martingale. Let me say that NO, I have not seen the horse, so obviously it could be exaggerated, but this is what I was told. Apparently they put something new on every time he acts up. According to another camper who rides at the same farm, the horse's mouth is bloody after every training "session". It made me pretty sick to my stomach, and I gave the camper's mom my own trainer's number. I really don't understand the point putting tons of equipment on a horse in training.


And just think... That horse understands what she's doing and why she's doing it even less than we do.... Honestly, not to be mean or anything, but I could just smack people who do that... I'd smack them out of the blue, then I'd be like "How did that feel? Did you understand why I did that?" And once they answer I'd say "Well how do you think that horse feels about what you're doing to it?"


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I don't know what idiot this is, but I can assure you that a GOOD Saddlebred trainer is NOT like this. 

This is not a trainer, this is someone that has learned just enough to have some of the methodology down, but none of the reasoning behind it is understood.

This type of person needs to be horsewhipped.

There are good trainers in all breeds. And bad too.

You can find them if you look.


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## acorn (Nov 27, 2012)

EliRose said:


> I really don't understand the point putting tons of equipment on a horse in training.


Lazy folks use short cuts when they can. Also people who are the "I WANT IT NOW" type.
Makes me ill.:-(


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## Sunnylucy (Jul 3, 2012)

So many people call themselves "trainers" who are unqualified and the horses suffer. If you can't train without abusing the horse, then don't call yourself a trainer, because you are not. Discipline is one thing, abuse is another. If a trainer ever tried this garbage on my horse they would be gone fast. Only advice I can give is if you find yourself cringing when a trainer is working your horse, maybe you need a new trainer.


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