# Crazy unique color... Help?



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Pictures may or may not work on here... I hope they'll post. Ill post more if it works.


----------



## Bugbegone (Jun 3, 2018)

gotta ask why this cross? As for her color there's a lot in there. Not sure why you want to label her though. Just be happy she beautiful and healthy..


----------



## Jewell (Aug 2, 2018)

Beautiful coloring!!


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Yes you are right why label? I would just like to know is all because it boggles my mind. It doesnt matter at all but just that thing that I can never quite take out of my mind. Thank you. I am surprised she is this many colors. I would just like to know haha. I get what you are saying though. I sent her mom to training not too far away and the trainer ended up purposely breeding her to one of his belgian stallions and tried to have me sell her to him cause he said she wasnt trainable. Well obviously we kept her and then a couple months later found out she was pregnant. It was an accidental miracle I like to say. Now Echo's(dam) beautiful baby dreamer is 10 months old and I dont regret ever sending momma to the trainer cause if i didnt I would not have had such an amazing experience working with my filly that is growing so fast. Thank you very much for answering your best and I hope you like my baby girls color as much as i do! 🙂


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Gorgeous! If you must lable... paint buckskin??


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Some trainer. 

Odd two breeds to put together, agree. I didn't think either breed came in pinto, so wondering if he lied to you. But then you said the mare has "patches". So the mare is a pinto? And the sire is I assume a chestnut?


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The sire if typical American Belgian would be sorrel and likely has flaxen and could well have pangare. Roan is possible but you would see it on the sire. American Belgians can be light but they are not palomino. If he is Brabant then several other options for colors are more common. Do you have pictures of each? Full body pictures of the baby? There are tobianao paso finos. From the description it is possible the dam is seal brown.


I'd say it is very possible you are seeing extreme pangare, Belgian roaning, smutty all on a possibly seal brown coat. I would expect to see more dark edging on ears for that though.


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Thank you for the insight. I love your knowledge! I can't really figure out how to get pictures on. It works but then it doesnt. Ill try more and if it works ill post of the dam and baby. I have no pictures of the sire unfortunately


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Full body pictures of said horse will help.

Sire (if belgian) would be chestnut, sorrel or red (all the same color, just different names) so ee. Dam looks to be bay tobiano or black with sunbleaching. So, your possible genes are 

chestnut tobiano (ee/Aa) or (ee/aa) 
Bay tobiano (Ee/Aa)
Black tobiano (Ee/aa) 

If the agouti is present and dominant she will have black points. If it is recessive she will either be black or red. 

Now, she looks to be a light bay who MAY be greying out. The dam may carry a recessive grey gene which was passed on to the offspring. The dam actually looks to be greying. Grey can do some wild things to base colors. This would also explain the silver in the tail. Roan would also explain it but the horse in question seems to have much too light of a head to be roan. However, the greying in the mare could be roan, due to the dark head. 

If that's the case, the mare would be a bay roan, albeit dark bay, but roan nonetheless, which could contribute to the silver in the tail as well. The true silver gene does NOT look to be present in the dam, but there would be a slight chance the brown you're seeing in the original horse could be black with the silver gene. That would not show on the sire, who is chestnut, which does not show the silver gene. It is very unlikely the sire would carry the silver gene if a true chestnut belgian. I would send a sample in for testing for sure. 

Opening up the grey, silver or roan genes, opens up a whole new world of secondary coloring, but if the sire and dam were true to color, the base colors would still be chestnut, black or bay.


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Foal pictures will also help. If the foal was hyperpigmented I would say grey for sure.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@WhattaTroublemaker
Belgian roaning is not like the "true" roan. It can be patchy or cover the entire body. It is likely from sabino. As many typical American Belgians carry flaxen and a fairly high percent carry pangare it could be there is roaning that is hidden on the tailhead. With the tail head being white on the mare though, possibly rabicano but I don't know enough about coloring and Pasos except to say there are lines that carry/express tobiano. Looking at one of the first pictures on a computer instead of my phone though there is a darker edge to the ears.


Do you have closer pictures of the mare's face and full body shots of the youngster? If there is gray it would come from the mare. Just throwing this out there as I have a couple of palominos that have a very non standard roaning (as opposed to true roan) that is on the cheek, at the poll, heavy over the throatlatch, down the neck then picks up again across the rump. Both are sooty, have visible counter shading and for white markings have one white pastern with very jagged edges, pally ermine spots, and a double star on the face. Looking at them from a distance you don't see the white at all but up close the ticking is very obvious. So it could be something other than gray or roan.


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

QtrBel said:


> @WhattaTroublemaker
> Belgian roaning is not like the "true" roan. It can be patchy or cover the entire body. It is likely from sabino. As many typical American Belgians carry flaxen and a fairly high percent carry pangare it could be what causes the roaning for them hides on the tailhead. With the tail head being white on the mare though, possibly rabicano but I don't know enough about coloring and Pasos except to say there are lines that carry/express tobiano. Looking at one of the first pictures on a computer instead of my phone though there is a darker edge to the ears.


What are the actual genetics of pangare? Because I have never seen an American belgian with sabino genes, unless crossed with a clyde. Most registered belgians are very solid actually, sometimes with flaxen, which is still ee. 

I am completely unfamiliar with pasos, but I'm quite familiar with Belgians. There is a good chance that the mare could be rabicano, which again would open up another can of worms lol

As for base colors, the foal is either bay, black or red according to genetics, with other markers. IF the sire and dam are true to color/word. Its the markers we need to find out :think: Foal shed can also do some wonkey things to the coat since it's only ten months old. I'd love to see a whole body photo.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

My friend has a Tobiano Paso who is roan, too! He is a tiny little spitfire! 

Anyway, the filly looks like Sabino splash to me. She will not be grey, unless this wonderful trainer has other unmanaged stallions.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@WhattaTroublemaker 



Pangare will put the light underside, mealy muzzle and light (almost white) in the soft spots. When you see a Belgian that has an even darker coloring on the topside and an even lighter underside that meets in the middle (or close to it) along the sides - that is pangare in action. It can also put white on the back of the rear legs at the top over the thickest part of the muscle. It seems to be more frequent with the lighter bodied Belgians that look palomino and I suspect that in the extreme this causes the overall coat shade to lighten. The skin is dark with pangare and not pink as it is with white. The sabino expression in Belgians is limited to white blazes (some very irregular, very wide and going down the side of the face) and roaning that can be patchy (covering just one spot) or all over including the face and legs. There are several sabino genes that are responsible for the white and this is likely not the same as what you see in Clydes. There are a few Belgians that will have white on the lower leg but it is very low and limited to one, maybe two legs and often is not visible unless the horse is wet because of the creaming on the lower leg. The roaning in Belgians isn't common. If all I had ever seen were the typical red with flaxen I would think the same but one of the breeders in Tx loved the lighter colored Belgians and all in his personal herd carried extreme pangare so Ive' seen quite a bit of that and the body was so light they looked almost washed out of any red coloration. He also kept a stallion we used for many years called Oaklands Silver Dollar. He didn't use him on his mares but stood him for others that wanted the darker coloration. Half of OSD's foals were the rich red with flaxen (from the mare) and the other half was that dark cherry with same color mane and tail. A small percentage of both carried the roan. I have two of those. One lighter with both pangare and flaxen from the dam while the other is the dark cherry. Interestingly they both have the same dam and she only expressed the pangagre along her midline belly, the soft spots and muzzle. She was a rich red with flaxen mane and tail (the right hand horse in my avatar). I've never really looked to see if there are pictures on the web as this was 25 years ago but the one picture I have of OSD and seeing him in person - he was a solid dark cherry, no pangare, no flaxen and all over body roan. If you type Equine Tapestry Belgian Roan you get a picture of what this roan can do. I've tried just Belgian roan and American Belgian roan and mostly all that comes up are pictures of Brabants. There are also pictures over the years in the Draft Horse journal that show this roaning in the American Belgian. I think it is even less common now that it was all those years ago so it is not a surprise that you are not familiar with that possibility. Most aren't.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I specifically use the word roaning and not roan for this reason.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Without knowing anything about the parents the filly 100% looks palomino. Now obviously knowing about the parents that's not possible- yet, we don't actually KNOW what color the dad is... could be unregistered Belgian type draft carrying cream (palomino and NOT flaxen chestnut) vs an actual purebred Belgian (no cream) OR the mom could be hiding cream on her dark color. Both are strong possibilities.

It is also possible she has the flaxen chestnut coloring just expressed differently though I still lean towards palomino.

She is not black based (black/bay/brown), nor is she grey, grey is not recessive and one parent must be grey. Black horses have black points unless they have silver, very unlikely here both on appearance and parentage (do Belgians even have silver? I know this came up before..). Nor does she look like either of those things.

She's also obviously a pinto, I'm guessing sabino/tobiano though those aren't great pics.

More pics would help.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Here is the original thread for baby pics...https://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/color-help-bd-x-pf-788399/


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

QtrBel said:


> Here is the original thread for baby pics...https://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/color-help-bd-x-pf-788399/


Thanks, I KNEW I had seen this somewhere!!

She's matured nicely...still want to see more pics 

Seems like silver was the biggest question as a foal but that seems less likely given her more mature coloring now.. She just doesn't look like a silver to me. Very palomino/red based.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I was considering liver chestnut as a possibility.


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Mare has white specks over her whole body on the black except her head. In the summer she may be more bleached with the bay undertone. In the winter she is black with some white specks showing over the black since her coat is thicker. The last pictuee is of the baby's tail which is all white except for the silver looking patch in it.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Liver chestnut with flaxen would give you that. Bels are born with the dark/same color guard hairs and foal coat mane and tail so when that first coat was shed and all the baby mane and tail came out you would be left with the Flaxen. Liver chestnut and flaxen can be mistaken for silver.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Your pictures did not drop until after my reply. Your mare Echo is black based but she is not black. She is bay (specifically seal brown) I suspect she is Ee (black) with A_ (brown version) and Tobiano with rabicano and possibly sabino (splash?). She does not have bay undertones. There is no such thing as a bay undertone but some blacks will fade and have a reddish cast to the body that covers the barrel and hips. This is different than what you are seeing. She is reddish (cinnamon, orange, bay if you want to call it that) in the spots that are typical for seal brown or brown to show their "true" color. I don't see roan in the mare. I also suspect she carries the sooty gene as it can do weird things to a red coat and make even the darkest seal brown appear black. Sooty puts black from the top down. The sire if Belgian (no cross) is going to be ee (sorrel/chestnut) and Ff_ and could carry the sabino responsible for roaning. Flaxen horses have a core color for the tail (and sometimes the mane) that is the same as the body color except when sooty is present then it can be black. I have seen that on my palominos that carry/express sooty. The manes and tails are white/very light cream and the core appears black similar to a Fjord. I also suspect the presence of mealy (pangare) from the sire.



At this point my guess for your Dreamer assuming Echo has a sorrel/chestnut parent is e(mare)e(sire) At(mare)_ To(mare)_ Ra(mare)_ Sty(mare)_ Sab_(mare or sire or both) Ff (sire)_ Me(sire)_. She hit the jackpot of modifiers basically. I just used letters that may or may not be what is traditionally used so it is more obvious what the expression would be I went with lower case to indicate not present in some instances. The sabino may be two different forms and Dreamer may have one from each or one from either and not both. So e/e At/a To/n Ra/ra Sty/sty Sb/Sb or Sb_ F/Ff and P/p (mealy).


ETA a portion of the white in the tail is from the tobiano as the white on the body covers the tailhead.


Both are beautiful, well cared for and obviously well loved. I'd love to see this updated through the seasons as she grows. She is very unique.


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

@QtrBel [ Yes thank you for sharing all of your information. I do love my horses much more than a lot of things haha! They are the best!!! I would love to update you with pictures as Dreamer gets older. Again, I really do appreciate it. I learned quite a bit! 🙂


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

While I'm leaning AWAY from flaxen chestnut, it definitely is an option, but-it's also the simplest solution and maybe we shouldn't be quick to dismiss what is most likely. Shrug.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Without know the coloring of the dams parents or the sire and whether he is purebred or cross it opens a world of possibility doesn't it? @Yogiwick 
@*SinceDayOne* would you google Belgian horse and copy a picture or put a link to what comes closest to matching the sire?


Equine Color Genetics
scroll down to pangare and look at Mitch. This is what I expect the sire looks like though he could be lighter in the body.


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Close to this.


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

@QtrBel ^^^ most of the Amish Belgians had this coat and I'm almost sure it was this if not either a little lighter


----------



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

@QtrBel The day I went to go get a pic I asked and he had already sold thr Sire. Thats why I have no pictures.


----------



## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> Without know the coloring of the dams parents or the sire and whether he is purebred or cross it opens a world of possibility doesn't it? @*Yogiwick*
> @*SinceDayOne* would you google Belgian horse and copy a picture or put a link to what comes closest to matching the sire?
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't Mitch fabs. My famous pone-pone. That was only the first month I had him. His legs will never be that white again. :lol:. He spends too much time playing in the water and water and dirt make mud. (Although he did just get a bath and I saw his fabulous white socks for all of 3 hours before he dirtied them up again)


He's a real trip to clip in the winter. He gets three different color shades because of his white tummy.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@CaliforniaDreaming I would say he is outstanding in his field.....

@SinceDayOne That is what I expected. Here is a link to another thread. Scroll through to see pictures of that baby which we now know is not gray and there are pictures of a bay and my sorrel Belgian that has extensive ticking. The Belgians are also known for dappling like that whether it is a product of sabino or pangare or combining both - who knows


https://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/roan-grey-788083/


----------

