# Problem Horse - Rearing



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Saddle? Teeth? Sore back? Sore anywhere? A lack of a forward button? rider gripping and bracing? There could be many possibilities.


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## ReiningGirl (Oct 4, 2011)

I know she has no soreness issues, but the lack of a forward button might be part of it, the more I think about it. 

When she "shuts down" or gets tired, she tends to move backwards.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Whens he goes to back , bend her front end and force her to move forward. She can't rear with her front end bent. Sounds like spring fever to me  By the time you hopped off it was too late, she got what she wanted. Really, by the time she reared it was too late. Rearing is a habit that has to be stopped before it happens.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Assuming that all was OK with tack and health the moment she refused to go forward she would have a real wallop from the whip behind the riders leg. One on the right across the neck with the whip hand and one down to opposite side and another on the whip side. All three would be administered before she had time to blink and it would certainly drive her forward.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Any horse iv had that would rear knowin the rider would make them not do what was asked of them- id break an egg on the horses head-- soon as their forelegs lift up off the ground even if its just a threat break the egg- makes the horse think its smashed his head and is bleeding and will calm down immediately. 

One of the Peruvian pasos i rode loved to rear because his owner would go tumbling off his back- i smashed him with an egg and changed his tune immediately - he never did it again out of fear.

Another was a quarter mare with a bad attitude that would rear and i smashed the egg trick and never again. 

Just a few.. I like to test things a lot 'scientifically' just to test different theories -this is one that definitely works and ive done it on over 20 different horses with positive results every time and not one would even think about rearin again.

Im not 'callin' anyone either- just my own method.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you knows she rears when she back up, don't let her back up, please! You're scaring me! When I was a youth, I saw a horse go over on a girl & kill her. Take this vice very, very seriously.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

In order to rear the horse has to plant it's back hooves, bunch it's body then go up. The horse actually tells the rider it is going to happen before it does. This is when the rider needs to get the hind quarters moving laterally allowing a little forward movement. As long as one leg is stepping under and across the horse can't brace to rear.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Pop horse between ears with flat of hand, butt of crop, or egg/water balloon but only if your seat is good.

And must be done the very instant the horse gets light and starts up.

And horse has learned to do this because it is getting out of being ridden.

Could also be whoever else is riding her, has taught her to do this, thinking it is cute, and now has a major problem.

I see this all the time with girls on youtube...trying to get comments on how "good you ride" so they teach horses bad habits...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:lol: I would so love to see the old egg trick being done, never seen it, and I know for sure that I would not have the ability to juggle an egg and deal with a ****y rank rearing horse.

I seriously question if a horse does make the connection that an egg trickling down is meant to feel like he is bleeding, I think that a good rap with a whip would be just as affective, if not as messy.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

HATE rearing threads. 

A horse that rears is showing resistance. DO NOT WHACK THE HORSE BETWEEN THE EARS OR ANY OTHER OF THESE FOOLISH IDEAS. When a horse goes up you want the horse back down.. not over on its back or rearing higher. 

Resistance can be because of holes in the education (if she was backing up to avoid things before.. the next segue is to rear.. seen that before and this is more of that). The horse has no clear idea of moving forward being the reward. Resistance can also come because the horse was an orphan and has no clear ideas about how a horse behaves or what boundaries are. All in all it adds up to the same thing... a horse that rears to evade a request from the rider or handler.

Golly knows why the horse is rearing. Get the horse gone to someone who understands horses and can train her or get rid of her before someone gets KILLED. 

BTW someone who understands horses would not whack the horse over the head.. but would keep the horse moving and not give the horse time to think about backing up and rearing. They would not hold the horse back from going forward.. and let forward be the way out of things. 

BEFORE this becomes and ingrained habit and the horse has to be put down, get this horse in professional hands. the more the horse rears, the more the habit becomes ingrained and the more likely the answer is to kill the horse before she kills someone.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

100% in agreement with Elana!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Meangene1975 (May 29, 2013)

Teeth floating or sore in mouth. Have you tried a Bosel or hacks more?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> :lol: I would so love to see the old egg trick being done, never seen it, and I know for sure that I would not have the ability to juggle an egg and deal with a ****y rank rearing horse.
> 
> I seriously question if a horse does make the connection that an egg trickling down is meant to feel like he is bleeding, I think that a good rap with a whip would be just as affective, if not as messy.


I will join you for a front seat to see this! 
I have dealt with many rearers, I am not talking about a horse that hops a foot or so off the ground with its front feet but horses that stand right up. 

In this case you have to be riding the horse carrying an egg or a water filled balloon for however long it takes before it rears. Then when it is going up you have to lean forward to not pull the horse over backwards which involves wrapping your arms around its neck, get the balloon or egg and smack the horse over the head with it. 
_I think not!_

Any form of correction has to be done at the right instant and I do not believe this feat of correction is possible. 

As for turning the horse's head to the side and driving it forwards this is not always a cure. It works with some horses but with others they will just throw themselves over sideways. 

I do not think it would take much to correct this horse. It could well be just a try on. Some horses will question a lot of what you ask them to do just because that is the way they are. It does not always mean a gap in their training.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

ReiningGirl said:


> *Now, this backing up when confused was typical*, but once you would walk her forward, ask again, and she understood it, she didn't do the behavior.


I think this is apart of your problem. That backing thing can lead to rearing really easily. I do not like rearing horses, the best thing is forward motion, forward motion, forward motion. I would not let this horse back up ever. If I was working on backing I would only do a step or two just to keep her flexing correctly but for awhile I would keep her moving forward. Make her learn to work out her confusion going forward or at least standing still. Teaching your horse to move into issues is way better than having them back away from a problem.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

The egg trick is HILARIOUS. I won't go as far as effective, but I have seen it done once. The look on the horse's face was WTF?!
I don't know if it accomplished anything but it sure was funny to watch.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> :lol: I would so love to see the old egg trick being done, never seen it, and I know for sure that I would not have the ability to juggle an egg and deal with a ****y rank rearing horse.
> 
> I seriously question if a horse does make the connection that an egg trickling down is meant to feel like he is bleeding, I think that a good rap with a whip would be just as affective, if not as messy.



Lol i like the way you worded this! :thumbsup: Told ya id learn ya good. :lol: 

in an english saddle id immagine it would be a bit tricky if the horse was actin out other than backin- but a rear i can handle one handed well.. i break horses western not english-- i used to ride a palomino paso fino 'sonny' that i trained to rear on purpose as a trick (done it bareback a lot too) -never had a problem with him doin it other than when asked.. i wouldnt say he was 'rank' but he was a very hyper horse. 

I seen a guy once jump off a rearin horse and pull the horse over backwards by the reins and that horse never reared ever again- that also works but dont condone it for a greenie rider.. or anyone! Except the guy that i saw do it, lol.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

toto said:


> Lol i like the way you worded this! :thumbsup: Told ya id learn ya good. :lol:


So funny, love the irony, congratulations :rofl::rofl:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not care what anyone says - when you get a rearer like this there is no way that you can get an egg or water balloon from where ever you are carrying it and smash it over the horse's head!





This is another of Paul Williams videos of a rearing horse, again tell me how you could smash a horse like this on the head?






All he says is correct and he is a brilliant rider of problem horses - if a horse can flip on him then it is a bad one!


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

The Video was interesting, in two ways. One the riders method seems to work I wouldn't deal with that horse in that way, but....That's me. Second, an more to the point, did anyone else notes how much backward motion that horse had while rearing!!! This is a great example of why I said rearing is a backwards motion problem, forward, forward, forward. If you are working with a horse that finds it can back out of issues your not too far from a rearing horse. Great Video.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Eggsactly Foxhunter.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cowboy Bob - I like the way Paul deals with the horses. he is quiet, never flustered and a darn good rider. 

I have had many rearers, most do it to frighten the rider - generally that works. 

I have had them flip over though the wisest _confirmed_ rearers will go up and smash onto their sides. 

I had one horse that was one of the nappiest ever! he would go so far, stop dead go up a foot or so, if the ground was not slippery (this was often on the roads) he would go right up. If he felt it was slippery then he would continue to a place where it wasn't and resume his antics. 
He would go vertical, I could hang onto a rein and haul and he would still turn the opposite way and charge from whence he had come! I would pull him up and take him back, at the same spot he would repeat. 

I tried everything I knew to no avail. The beggar never won nor did I ever dismount, there was no pain or any other excuse other than he knew exactly how to get out of work. (His previous groom had always taken him back when he switched off)
In the end he napped in the middle of the village at the X roads. I could have gone anyway bar straight on So, I sat him out. 3 hours we stood there. 3 hours vehicles had to weave past him. 3 hours of children and old ladies saying "Isn't he lovely! Can he have a sweetie?"
I smiled down at them and said through gritted teeth "No he is not lovely and he certainly cannot have a sweetie!"

That 3 hours was one of the best I have ever spent on a horse. It stopped his antics most of the time and when he did decided it was a no go day, I could get him to go with only minor tussles.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Endopink rocks! I bought pink breeches in honor of him! Whenever I see those vids, still gives me a sick feeling that I will never shake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ILMTisas (Nov 8, 2012)

ReiningGirl I can relate to your situation. I just recently sold my 6 yo mare that started rearing because she didn't want to work, side pass (which she has always done flawlessly), or to even stand still and she would precede into a rearing fit. The full straight up and she also flipped over four different times as well. A couple were on the side while the other two were straight back. 

I soon learned that anything I tried didn't work she would just shut down after a while. The funny thing was would be that she would be fine for two weeks then do it all over again! I ended up taking her to a professional trainer. He tried every trick in the book, even put the tarp over her while hobled. Nothing worked.....

I ended up selling her at an auction and I let the people know about her issue but they felt confident they could fix her. About three weeks later I saw her for sale. I believe for her she was past the point on fixing it. What was crazy is that she was so respectful on the ground. 

I sincerely hope you can find something to fix her problem!
Fyi : we did check for pain issues and nothing was causing pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I hate to say this.. but after a few years more than I care to count around horses... I learned the following is very true.

Never a horse that couldn't be rode. 
Never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed. 

Some horses get the best of everything and are still jerks. Fortunately they are few in number.

More people get the best of everything and are still jerks and there are more of them than jerk horses.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I haven't read through all the post, however, the one thing I will not "do" is random rearing. IMO, it is the single most dangerous "habit" a horse can have. A trusted horse that might, for _justifiable_ reason, go up and you can give them their head and go forward is "expected"...one that just does it out of the blue...no thanks, you never know if they have sense enough not to do it in a precarious situation or have overestimated their own "athletic" ability w a rider on their back. If it were me, I would find a well respected trainer that had a _lot_ of success with overcoming the problem in the past.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I think there's a useful distinctions to be made here. There are different types of rearers, IMO and IME -

First, a lot of horses at some point in their training will try a small rear as a resistance, a "No, I don't want to and you can't make me." or as part of a spook. I don't mind dealing with this; driving them forward and/or keeping them from planting their hinds works very well. If it's not a successful resistance, that is, they aren't able to avoid work by doing it, time and training pretty much make a non-issue.

Second type is a "confirmed" rearer, a horse that has been mishandled and allowed to be successful at rearing to avoid work and will rear at anytime they're faced with something they don't want to do. IMO, these are VERY different problem and very hard to fix. When I was younger, fitter and stupider I did work with a couple and work throught it, but they were never horses that could be trusted with a tentative rider. Foxhunter's story about standing in the cross roads for 3 hours sounds like a confirmed rearer. 

Worst of all is a confirmed rearer that has flipped over and still rears. This, IMO, is a dangerous horse, one that cares more about resisting that its own safety. This horses should not be ridden and should probably be put down. (It's dangerous even for a handler on the ground, I had one flip over in a narrow barn aisle right next to me once


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

maura said:


> Worst of all is a confirmed rearer that has flipped over and still rears. This, IMO, is a dangerous horse, one that cares more about resisting that its own safety. This horses should not be ridden and should probably be put down. (It's dangerous even for a handler on the ground, I had one flip over in a narrow barn aisle right next to me once


I'm curious to know: in your experience, do horses that flip tend to only do it once (because they've scared themselves, etc.), or is a horse that has flipped over just as likely to continue rearing the same as before? Or does it just depend on the individual?


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## ILMTisas (Nov 8, 2012)

JaphyJaphy said:


> I'm curious to know: in your experience, do horses that flip tend to only do it once (because they've scared themselves, etc.), or is a horse that has flipped over just as likely to continue rearing the same as before? Or does it just depend on the individual?


 I think it really depends on the individual. Because that mare I brought up earlier flipped over four times and kept doing it. 

But I did have a 4 yo gelding that reared and he flipped over once and never thought about rearing ever again.

But I may be wrong, but this is from my own experiences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I know trainin a horse to rear aint the same as a horse thats jumpin up on two feet straight up in the air or thats steppin backwards about to flip - but the point in the (as golden puts it) 'old egg trick'  is to smash it before the horse goes up that high- soon as that horses front end gets light and those feet come off the ground- smash the egg! do not wait for them to go up as high as they can! Thats only for the very start of the rear to stop it in its tracks.

And i never grab the neck on a rearer because the few times i had i found it made them take those wobbly steps backwards- either jump off or lean forward as far as you can with your chest pressed against the neck but never grab ahold of the neck for ballancing yourself- theres 1000 pounds of meat thats bein ballanced by two toothpicks and yes- your body weight can and will make them go over backwards! It should never ever get to this point though!!!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

JaphyJaphy said:


> I'm curious to know: in your experience, do horses that flip tend to only do it once (because they've scared themselves, etc.), or is a horse that has flipped over just as likely to continue rearing the same as before? Or does it just depend on the individual?


I have had all sorts!
One big Irish TB that came in for breaking prior to going into jump training was a so and so. 
I said from the moment I started working him (he was 4 years) that he had been tried. The sales catalogue said 'Lunged and long reined until the time of the sales' 
He was a nappy dog and his favourite trick was to get to the side of the road, stand vertical and instead of going over would go down to the side so he never hurt himself. 

I have had the odd youngster do something and go up not knowing what they are doing over balance and flip. Once and it frightens them others will find it a good excuse to do it again.

Anther confirmed rearer we flipped him over into a river. He swam for about 1/2 mile before he could gain the bank and I got straight on him and he immediately flipped again!

I busted my back in three places when a young filly had a hissy fit and went up. I bailed out and was stood by her side holding the reins when she teetered trying not to go over, she slipped and fell to the side. I slipped as I tried to get out the way but she landed on me. She never reared again. 

As for the horse I mentioned earlier, he was a 'character' and of all the horses I have ridden before and since, he would be the one I would want to clone. He never gave up trying all sorts of things on, he never won but he still tried! He knew when I was cross with him and would take it whereas when he first came he would fight back if you corrected him. As he was 16.2 heavyweight hunter and knew his strength it was vital that he respected me. 
He was hogged (roached) and to do so meant twitching him and being quick to run the clippers down either side of his mane - if you weren't he would just throw you around on the end of the twitch. After the first few weeks of coming to an agreement, I would leave him loose, stand on a stool, he would put his head right down. I would step down and his head would go up. This would go on for a few minutes and then I would poke him in the neck and tell him to stop messing and he was as good as gold to do. t was a matter of coming to an agreement with him rather than telling him.

Heck, I loved that horse like no other.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

toto said:


> And i never grab the neck on a rearer because the few times i had i found it made them take those wobbly steps backwards- either* jump off* or lean forward as far as you can with your chest pressed against the neck but never grab ahold of the neck for ballancing yourself- theres 1000 pounds of meat thats bein ballanced by two toothpicks and yes- your body weight can and will make them go over backwards! It should never ever get to this point though!!!


Jump off? Seriously? Quickest way in the world for the horse to learn rearing = bailing rider and a quick way to get out of work. That will just lead to reinforcing the behavior.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cat said:


> Jump off? Seriously? Quickest way in the world for the horse to learn rearing = bailing rider and a quick way to get out of work. That will just lead to reinforcing the behavior.


If a horse gets to the teetering then bailing out is the safest thing. Sod being on a horse when it does go right over. 
Look at the video I posted.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Cat said:


> Jump off? Seriously? Quickest way in the world for the horse to learn rearing = bailing rider and a quick way to get out of work. That will just lead to reinforcing the behavior.



Equestrian 101- bein able to judge if you needa bail off or ride it out. :thumbsup:


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> If a horse gets to the teetering then bailing out is the safest thing. Sod being on a horse when it does go right over.
> Look at the video I posted.


 
This behavior should have been stopped long before this point.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

palogal said:


> This behavior should have been stopped long before this point.



Thats the point-- it wasnt stopped and bailing off is safer than throwing your horse off ballance by grabbin his neck.. if the rider dont know how to stop the behavior before it gets to this point- they need a professional obviously- in the mean time if it does happen- bail! Do not try to be a cowboy/girl and hang on!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

palogal said:


> This behavior should have been stopped long before this point.


I cannot disagree with you. However some horses do learn to rear and then are sent to people like Paul to sort out.

This occurred in Japan where horsemanship is not at its strongest. Also many TB colts, stuffed with hard feed and feeling very coltish will go up just because it is their nature to do so. Lack of know how often leads to many problems.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> I cannot disagree with you. However some horses do learn to rear and then are sent to people like Paul to sort out.
> 
> This occurred in Japan where horsemanship is not at its strongest. Also many TB colts, stuffed with hard feed and feeling very coltish will go up just because it is their nature to do so. Lack of know how often leads to many problems.


You are all over the map. Babies rear because they're babies and that is easily corrected. Coltish or not and it's not specific to TB's either. And I have no idea what 'stuffed with hard feet' means.

This horse has a behavior problem and it needs to be firmly and quickly corrected. Jumping off of this horse gives him what he wants. The problem has to be fixed before the front feet leave the ground with a redirection of energy and motion.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

JaphyJaphy said:


> I'm curious to know: in your experience, do horses that flip tend to only do it once (because they've scared themselves, etc.), or is a horse that has flipped over just as likely to continue rearing the same as before? Or does it just depend on the individual?


Good question...I have the same thought.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

palogal said:


> You are all over the map. Babies rear because they're babies and that is easily corrected. Coltish or not and it's not specific to TB's either. And I have no idea what 'stuffed with hard feet' means.
> 
> This horse has a behavior problem and it needs to be firmly and quickly corrected. Jumping off of this horse gives him what he wants. The problem has to be fixed before the front feet leave the ground with a redirection of energy and motion.


no- babies rear for the same reason mature horses do- they feel traped and do it as a last resort- its a horses way of getting bigger- intimidation when they cant run away from a situation.

If this horse rears up to the point there tilting backwards or takin those backwards steps on the hind legs you should have bailed a long time ago because this means you have no clue what youre doin- and you need a professional trainer!

grabbin a horses neck tryin to ballance yourself will get you smashed! Have you ever had a 1000+ pound animal land on top of you? It dont feel too good i can tell you that! 

Know when to judge a situation you cant handle and bail off before you get hurt- thats horse ridin 101! If you aint been in a situation where you had to bail off a horse you probably aint been ridin long at all.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok I didnt read all this, but I have a gelding that was like that at one point. The rearing is just an exaggeration of her backing up. She doesnt realize that it's dangerous, but you do. She is backing up bc she is frustrated that she doesnt understand what you are asking. When you keep asking and she keeps getting it wrong she is rearing to pretty much say I give up I quit! So slow it down and break things down for her. She seems like she is trying and wants to do it! 

If she rears, yell and get yourself up that neck, of course. But once my horses didnt rear ever again after I broke things down a little for him. It is like some horses OVER THINK things and think it is supposed to me difficult answer and dont see the simple answer you are trying to give them.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

palogal said:


> You are all over the map. Babies rear because they're babies and that is easily corrected. Coltish or not and it's not specific to TB's either. And I have no idea what 'stuffed with hard feet' means.
> 
> This horse has a behavior problem and it needs to be firmly and quickly corrected. Jumping off of this horse gives him what he wants. The problem has to be fixed before the front feet leave the ground with a redirection of energy and motion.


Go to spec savers - I wrote hard FEED!

I would just love to know how you would stay on this horse when it was going over.
No good saying "I would teach it ground manners" either. This occurs when the horse is being ridden.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Like many animals, if they get away with something once then they will do it again to achieve what they want or do not want to do.

A 2 year old filly I had bred refused to load the other day. This was into a horsebox where the ramp is a bit higher and it has gates on the side.
She had loaded fine before, her two field companions were loaded, there was plenty of room. she just decided to have a hissy fit. She was not hassled, beaten nor did anyone get upset about her not going in. 
She started to rear and lost her balance and went over on her side on the grass. The leader had to let go. She did this once and decided that it was the way to get out of loading. 
The fourth time she did it she missed the grass and landed hard on the concrete, as she was going down on her side she did not do any damage but it sure as heck made her realise that it was easier to load then to hurt herself. 

Some horses because of their temperament, training or handling, will question what they are being asked. 
If they get away with bad behaviour once they will try it again. With a rearer it is up to the rider to decide the best way to deal with it. 

Someone says that leaning forward will unbalance them, I disagree, if a horse is going vertical the only way to stay on them is to go forward. staying upright puts the balance beyond the point of no return and will more likely bring the horse over.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Someone says that leaning forward will unbalance them, I disagree, if a horse is going vertical the only way to stay on them is to go forward. staying upright puts the balance beyond the point of no return and will more likely bring the horse over.


WOW! I have never heard of that! But I agree with you! LEAN FORWARD!!! And start climbing that mane if you have too! If it starts going back shove off and try to get AWAY! You can get killed by trying to hold onto a rearing horse. One reason I ALMOST gave up on my boy. Seriously. I had one 15 min session with a Parelli trainer and he has never reared again. Mine was all about how I asked him. I had to give him time to think, and bc he was one that always wants to please, once he got it right, he has it!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

JaphyJaphy said:


> I'm curious to know: in your experience, do horses that flip tend to only do it once (because they've scared themselves, etc.), or is a horse that has flipped over just as likely to continue rearing the same as before? Or does it just depend on the individual?


Japhy, 

I have known horses to flip over ONCE and then scare themselves bad enough that they don't attempt a big rear again. This is the logic behind the old timer cowboy advice to pull a horse over deliberately, the idea is that the flip and fall is punishment for the behavior and that they learn not to do it again. I will freely confess that my ovaries are not big enough to try this, I'd much rather work on the root cause.

IMO, if a horse rears, flips over and falls once, and then offers to do it again, that is, the pain and loss of balance the first time wasn't enough to discourage the behavior, that horse is dangerous and needs to be retired or destroyed. I am quite sure there are people who have worked through the behavior and continue to ride these horses, but for me, it's just not worth it. Too many nice horses out there, and the risk/benefit analysis just doesn't work for me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

> Someone says that leaning forward will unbalance them, I disagree, if a horse is going vertical the only way to stay on them is to go forward. Staying upright puts the balance beyond the point of no return and will more likely bring the horse over.



LOL I have Roy Rogers and Trigger in mind when I read that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The Levade under saddle - please note that although the rider maintains a contact his weight is forward






The Courbette follows on from the Levade, very few horses can actually perform this movement. 
Again the riders body weight is forward. 
ALso notice that Airs Above Ground are performed without stirrups.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Roy & a Courbette?










Trigger was a heck of a horse...I guess trust works into the equation when it is a trained behavior.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Nope, bums, 

Watch the Lipanzzaner video.

Levade is a sustained, controlled, rear; Courbette is a leaping up and forward from the Levade position, with all four legs well off the ground. An exceptional horse performs several in a row, and appears to hop on its back legs, while maintaining nearly vertical body position and folded front legs.

Not dissing Trigger, of course.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Oh well...guess the gun on Roy's hip should have been a give-away. No shooting the judges in a dressage competition! But I doubt the Vienna horses were fed from a plate by Bob Hope...:lol:


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Go to spec savers - I wrote hard FEED!
> 
> I would just love to know how you would stay on this horse when it was going over.
> No good saying "I would teach it ground manners" either. This occurs when the horse is being ridden.


 
You stop this behavior before it starts and that has nothing to do with ground manners. With the correct trainer this behavior does not occur.
When I get a training client in and it has this problem I use a ground handler to help me, not a parachute.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

palogal said:


> You stop this behavior before it starts and that has nothing to do with ground manners. With the correct trainer this behavior does not occur.
> When I get a training client in and it has this problem I use a ground handler to help me, not a parachute.


I guess I can't edit anymore...
I use a ground handler to move the horse forward if I can't get it done so he doesn't get off the ground and teach the horse a better behavior and release.


Rearing is very dangerous and jumping off of a rearing horse is as well. Training correctly will eliminate the need to jump as well as the rearing.
Some rearers can't be fixed, most can.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

I've fixed more problemed horses than I can count. I've bailed a few times and they were my fault for not fixing the issue before that point.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

We do have to best in mind though, that there maybe people who have been too busy riding every discipline, breaking more rank rearers than the rest of the trainers in here combined, or otherwise usefully employed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> We do have to best in mind though, that there maybe people who have been too busy riding every discipline, breaking more rank rearers than the rest of the trainers in here combined, or otherwise usefully employed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Riding every discipline? Come on now! No one claimed that- ive ridden many and ive trained futurity winning horses along with many high points and im sure at 63 years old, ive sold more trophy saddles than horses youve trained in your lifetime- And i bet you have zero million dollar futurity winnin horses that youve trained yourself 

Oh but youre gonna tell me im wrong, lol.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

toto said:


> Riding every discipline? Come on now! No one claimed that- ive ridden many and ive trained futurity winning horses along with many high points and im sure at 63 years old, ive sold more trophy saddles than horses youve trained in your lifetime- And i bet you have zero million dollar futurity winnin horses that youve trained yourself so excuse yourself for bein rude once again!
> 
> Oh but youre gonna tell me im wrong, lol.


This is really uncalled for, one many levels.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

True that, Palogirl, which is yet another reason why I'm not a trainer. I've raised a few of my own, and done a few rehabs, but only where horses need time, patience, and a few rough edges ground off.

I have probably never ridden anything that won a futurity, LOL I was over 30 before I even rode a horse that I had papers for, although all the retired TB's we rode as kids must of had papers I suppose.

Anyway I can't help but think that people who jump in thinking a comment was addressed to or about them have a large opinion of themselves.

Again with any problem horse, know your limitations, I get help when I need it, I don't even know all the questions, let alone all the answers, and I don't pretend otherwise. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

palogal said:


> You stop this behavior before it starts and that has nothing to do with ground manners. With the correct trainer this behavior does not occur.
> When I get a training client in and it has this problem I use a ground handler to help me, not a parachute.


I so agree with you that you stop it before you start but, not all trainers see this and rearing becomes a habit.



palogal said:


> I guess I can't edit anymore...
> I use a ground handler to move the horse forward if I can't get it done so he doesn't get off the ground and teach the horse a better behavior and release.
> 
> 
> ...


From your web site the type of horses you are working with are very different to the TBs in race training that the videos show. Please believe me when I say that a leader would rarely make any difference to this sort of rearer. The horse would still go up with the leader there and unless that person is very experienced could make the horse flip or have the horse come down on top of them. 

Unfortunately horses in race training do not always have the best of handling. They live an unnatural life, are often over fed and not corrected for ground manners. This leads to all sorts of problems. 
It seems, from having spoken to Paul Williams, even worse in Japan. 
The terrible thing about many race trainers, especially in Japan, is that they want results yesterday and if a horse doesn't fit there then it ends up on a dinner plate. 
If I am starting a horse then I expect at the end of 42 days for that horse to be ridden out on the trails, in company and alone. For it to be going forward, happily popping small fences and generally a good ride for an experienced rider at all paces. 
With racing many trainers expect a horse to be going with a rider on in two weeks, regardless of how it is going. 

Not right but it is a fact of life.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

toto said:


> Riding every discipline? Come on now! No one claimed that- ive ridden many and ive trained futurity winning horses along with many high points and im sure at 63 years old, ive sold more trophy saddles than horses youve trained in your lifetime- And i bet you have zero million dollar futurity winnin horses that youve trained yourself
> 
> Oh but youre gonna tell me im wrong, lol.


Toto, it is posts like this, among others, that cause people to react so strongly to you. Trust me when I say that this forum isn't only "backyard" horse owners. We have many very reputable and well respected trainers and competitors here. Anyone can claim credentials when there is no way for people to check them. 

Your comments here were rude and demeaning. They are highly unlikely to gain you any respect here.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> I so agree with you that you stop it before you start but, not all trainers see this and rearing becomes a habit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm flattered that you were creeping on my website and all but I trained several TB's in my high school and college days which was pre-digital. I've also had a few more over the years. I'm not sure what Japanese race horses have to do with this discussion but whatever.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok... I just read this entire thread and first off.... There are several people on this forum that write the way they speak. As long as I can read it and understand it... Doesn't really bother me... My opinion on that one anyway....


Next as for the rearing....

I own a known rearer. I bought him as a three year old, he already had the rear and I thought it was SO cool. I added a command. Pretty dumb thing to do but hey... I was a teenager...

This horse would rear both on the ground AND with a rider on his back. On the ground he would rear coming in from pasture because he didn't want to ride and he would rear coming off the trailer at a show, then all the way around the show grounds he'd rear every few steps. He wasn't nasty about it, didn't try to hurt me but would try to spin away in a half hearted escape attempt. 

With me on his back he would rear when he was excited, when he was mad, when he didn't want to work, when he was confused... He would rear.

At 29 years old, he will still on occasion, pop a rear. They are only about 18 inches off the ground now days, but they are still there. 

To me, it's nearly impossible to cure a true rearer. You can rehabilitate them and even re-train them, but I treat a rearer as a recovering alcoholic, knowing the potential is always there.

I did try to the egg trick but I wasn't fast enough. I couldn't figure out how to do it on the up. It's very important to do it on the up, never on the down. The point really is to make them think they are bumping their heads. I also did the water balloon. 

I found that yanking his head very quickly to the right or left on the up would knock him off balance and force him to throw his front feet back down so he could maintain his balance, looking back, that wasn't the brightest thing but it did work several times but he's a smart one so eventually he would wait for me to lean forward and then he would spin his head away and yank me clean out of the saddle.

The most important thing with a rearer is forward motion, they can not rear if they are moving forward. When I would feel the bunching of the shoulders and the collecting of the neck, I would put him into a trot or a canter. Sometimes I wouldn't be quick enough so I would kick him forward as he began the rear. At that point he would leap forward but then we'd keep with the forward motion.

I also used a tie down at one point. That really helped, it was a plastic coded wire made for horses (I think maybe barrel racers). When he would rear, the plastic would press against his head. It would be painful and so he would come down. It wasn't a fix but it did help me to enjoy him more.

The thing that worked best for me was when my brother cut the end of a broom stick and fashioned a leather handle on it. I would hang it on my saddle horn and as he went up, I'd knock him between the ears. He learned quickly that if he reared, he'd get a headache.

Another thing I would do would be to jam my knuckle into his neck above the withers when he'd go up, it hurt and he'd come back down.

Oh... and just to give folks a good laugh... An old-timer once told me to take a piece of bailing twine and tie it from the halter to the tail so that when he reared, he'd pull against himself. I don't think I did it right because all I managed to do was get a big chunk of his tail ripped out....

I know all of this sounds cruel but rearing is probably the most dangerous thing a horse can do and needs to be handled quickly and efficiently. I was a teenager with a riding instructor (not a trainer - there is a difference) who would have nothing to do with my horse. I did talk to several trainers about him and all of them told a bullet would be the best option. That wasn't an option for me. He was my first horse and I loved him dearly.

We went on to compete for many many years and he really did well for me. Today he is happily retired and in my pasture. And believe it or not, I do love him. Even with the techniques I tried.

The one technique I didn't try was the flipping him over. That is a very dangerous technique and should be used as a last resort by a professional.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> I do not care what anyone says - when you get a rearer like this there is no way that you can get an egg or water balloon from where ever you are carrying it and smash it over the horse's head!
> Hybrid Horsemanship (Rearer) - YouTube
> 
> This is another of Paul Williams videos of a rearing horse, again tell me how you could smash a horse like this on the head?
> ...


Endospink is awesome....LOVE him. BUT.....He is a PROFESSIONAL!!!! AND.....he has the proper safety equipment and amenities, such as the round pen with fluffy sand to cushion the person and horse alike. I think that people offering advice for rearing should be very careful. OP could get seriously hurt or killed....it is NOT something to be dealt with lightly. Very wary of offering advice online and not in person seeing what the situation is and how much experience a person really has.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Allison Finch said:


> Toto, it is posts like this, among others, that cause people to react so strongly to you. Trust me when I say that this forum isn't only "backyard" horse owners. We have many very reputable and well respected trainers and competitors here. Anyone can claim credentials when there is no way for people to check them.
> 
> Your comments here were rude and demeaning. They are highly unlikely to gain you any respect here.


I only treat others with equality -and with the same amount of respect they share with me-- I'm sorry, that I was a bit frazzled after someone made fun of me for trying different disciplines over the course of my lifetime.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

palogal said:


> I'm flattered that you were creeping on my website and all but I trained several TB's in my high school and college days which was pre-digital. I've also had a few more over the years. I'm not sure what Japanese race horses have to do with this discussion but whatever.


I wasn't creeping I was interested. 

I am not saying that you have not trained TBs - what I will say is that there is a big difference, referring to the Paul Williams videos - of a horse out of race training and in training. 

There are more than one way to both train and re-train a horse. We should beg to differ and move on.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

toto said:


> I only treat others with equality -and with the same amount of respect they share with me-- I'm sorry, that I was a bit frazzled after someone made fun of me for trying different disciplines over the course of my lifetime.


Hey, no problem.

As for riding different disciplines? Heck, I started in dressage as a kid, showed western timed events growing up, did jumpers and eventing. Many horsepeople have ridden different disciplines seriously. Nothing new there either.

As for giving back rudeness as badly as it is given to you.....I suggest always trying for the higher ground. I will always remember that when I played soccer, it was tempting to doubly foul someone who purposely fouled me. Unfortunately, the referee usually only saw the retribution and never saw the original foul that caused my desire for revenge. It didn't take me many yellow/red cards to figure that out.....if you get my drift.


Back to the thread....sometimes a confirmed rearer just cannot be rehabilitated. I have been lucky with a few who didn't like my reaction to their rear and decided life was sweeter when they refrained from that behavior. But, there really are horses who have no concern for their OWN safety when doing this, and will certainly not care about YOUR safety. These horses are just not safe to ride, period.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

toto said:


> Equestrian 101- bein able to judge if you needa bail off or ride it out. :thumbsup:


Yes, but you put bailing off as the very first option like that was your first inclination if the horse goes into a rear. You should only bail if you believe the horse is going to go over and you won't be able to stop it. And if its to that point its probably time to take your horse to a professional trainer that handles problem horses.



> Originally Posted by toto Riding every discipline? Come on now! No one claimed that- ive ridden many and ive trained futurity winning horses along with many high points and im sure at 63 years old, ive sold more trophy saddles than horses youve trained in your lifetime- And i bet you have zero million dollar futurity winnin horses that youve trained yourself


Since you brought it up - mind sharing some of names of these high-point futurity winners that you have trained with us?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Cat said:


> Yes, but you put bailing off as the very first option like that was your first inclination if the horse goes into a rear. You should only bail if you believe the horse is going to go over and you won't be able to stop it. And if its to that point its probably time to take your horse to a professional trainer that handles problem horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you brought it up - mind sharing some of names of these high-point futurity winners that you have trained with us?


 
I agree!


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Cat said:


> Yes, but you put bailing off as the very first option like that was your first inclination if the horse goes into a rear. You should only bail if you believe the horse is going to go over and you won't be able to stop it. And if its to that point its probably time to take your horse to a professional trainer that handles problem horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you brought it up - mind sharing some of names of these high-point futurity winners that you have trained with us?



No- i did not mean to jump off at the first sign of a rear- i do feel as though a beginner rider should not try to stick it out and be hurt badly on a horse that lunges straight up in the air- they can be easily thrown off ballance by a rider that doesnt have a good seat and it can all end there.. if youre unsure what to do its probably in your best to just jump off and let someine with more experience handle the situation and evaluate the horses potential as a riding animal for a beginner rider. 

when i said that about the egg smash-- its not gonna do no good to smash a horse thats already gone all the way up- infact it would be more dangerous--the point in that would be to smash the egg at the first sign of the rear- right when the front end lifts off the ground to encourage them to go back down- just what i know works-- i would keep one rein held in my right hand a little tighter just to be safe to prevent the rear all the way up- even though ive not had it happen- wont say never- might happen tomorrow.. never know.

what stops a horse from backing up? Turning! At the sign of the backing i would immediately turn the horse out of the back and do some circles (if i didnt have an egg handy) ;-) kicking the horse or pulling back on the reins will cause the horse to back faster and kicking the horse in this confusion could cause a horse to go up instead of forward (this is how ive taught horses to rear as a trick) the instinct is to lunge forward- giivin id hold the reins up above the head to encourage 'up' and not back up quicker.


Yes- i mind solely because of who they are and its unacceptable to throw them under the bus for my personal gain.. i do realize its embarrassing for the owner and people that have to show them- maybe if this question come to head in a different situation but for this one ill leave their names out- sorry.. it would be unprofessional of me.. say what you will- i brought it uppon myself i suppose.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If they are million dollar futurity horses, I would imagine they are posted somewhere on a website with you listed as the trainer. Do you have these links?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Having been on a rearer that has no problem flipping herself over backwards and then getting up and doing it again... rearing is, IMPO, the most dangerous thing that a horse can do. I've seen the "egg trick" done. Didn't phase the horse it was done on in the least. What worked for that one? A crop handle to the head. I would not recommend people trying the "egg trick" or smacking the horse between the ears on a rear unless they knew **** well what they were doing and how to handle things. The horse I saw smacked? Never was one to flip over backwards, but was one that would go light in the front end quite a bit and her owner knew **** well what she was doing and had no qualms about doing it. 



toto said:


> ...
> 
> Yes- i mind solely because of who they are and its unacceptable to throw them under the bus for my personal gain.. i do realize its embarrassing for the owner and people that have to show them- maybe if this question come to head in a different situation but for this one ill leave their names out- sorry.. it would be unprofessional of me.. say what you will- i brought it uppon myself i suppose.


 I suggest you quit saying "not trying to offend" and the like, and quit bragging about all the WGC horses you've trained if you're not willing to post names...


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

NdAppy;
I suggest you quit saying "not trying to offend" and the like said:


> Yes, exactly.


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