# What is the Definition of a Trail Horse?



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Avna said:


> I was requested to start this thread, because (I'm guessing) of the blurriness of this definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree, but my experience is I've paid for trail horses that were one sided, recalcitrant and down right mean. Some wanted to bite the horse in front or kick the horse in back. Some wanted to leave the group. Some would not move without the group. Some would not back or side pass. Check the videos on this site for examples of superior trail horses. 

http://www.oregonhorsecenter.com/trail-events/

My ideal trail horse would be trained as above, able to execute 3rd level dressage requirements even if not pretty, jump to 3' finish a 50 mile endurance ride and walk calmly through a hail storm. I'm probably asking for too much. Oh and come to me at a full gallop from 400 yards for a scratch on the shoulder. Actually not much different from your superior definition.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

My version of a good trail horse is one that will step over a downed tree or plow through underbrush, walk alongside a busy road without flinching at traffic, slide down a hill or power up one, stand on a loose rein without fidgeting, tolerate gunfire, face down dogs, cross water, etc. 
I'm not too concerned about a pretty side pass so long as I can open/close gates. Neck reining and yielding to leg are necessary though! I want it to back or give fore or hind to get out of or through a tangled mess of whatever while I'm keeping branches out of my face.
It needs to be aware of where it is and where it puts its feet, and sometimes be smarter than me. 
I want to dismount in the middle of nowhere, drop the reins and know the horse will stay where I left it, and stand quietly while I mount and settle in. 
It needs to carry a saddle bag and a pommel bag and not worry when I turn to dig something out of it.
It needs to keep me safe wherever we happen to be.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

For the trail I want a sensible horse that is sure footed. As long as the horse has that foundation we can work through the rest of the stuff.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I wasn't familiar with the term trail horse until I came on here.

Here in Australia it was expected that most horses are all rounders capable of doing basic flatwork, trails and maybe a couple jumps. 

If they're not they are sold as green, or perhaps as very purpose trained horses. 

I'd be shocked to buy any non green horse that couldn't walk, trot, canter, steer and navigate moderate terrain quietly either alone or with a group. 

To me trail horses shouldn't be a catagory as every horse should have those abilities.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Saskia said:


> I wasn't familiar with the term trail horse until I came on here.
> 
> Here in Australia it was expected that most horses are all rounders capable of doing basic flatwork, trails and maybe a couple jumps.
> 
> ...


Somehow over the years the words trail horse have come to mean "too ugly to be a show horse which is why it never got trained for anything". I don't know how that happened.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Avna said:


> Somehow over the years the words trail horse have come to mean "too ugly to be a show horse which is why it never got trained for anything". I don't know how that happened.


Maybe to you......

To me a trail horse, one who can go anywhere and do anything is a gem to be prized, there are far more people who require sane sensible trail horses than require show horses.

Maybe it is the same mentality as those who will insist on calling themselves "I'm just a trail rider" There is no 'just' about it.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Part of it, I think, is the market. I was looking at a gaited beauty that was at a trainers place for a tuneup. I started to check for her front quarter buttons and the trainer said she hadn't worked on that since "nobody buying a trail horse cares about that." She wasn't going to waste her time drilling on leg cues because she didn't think it added value to this $6500 horse. The horse knew the stuff, but had not used it in years. 


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

One of the characteristics of a good trail horse that I have found myself growing to really appreciate is a balance between obedience and judgement. I don’t know that it can be trained into a horse, but I think it can be trained out of one by a rider who as a matter of routine ignores the horse’s input.

My current trail horse has good judgement. He will alert me to things up ahead. Sometimes it is a look to the brush ahead ears perked, sometimes it is a slowing of the pace followed by a stop, head high ears and eyes alert. When that happens, I know there is really something there we don’t necessarily want to walk into the middle of.

To date, he has never been wrong, which has built trust between us: A hunter in a tree blind, a small herd of running deer (or a combination of the former and latter, which could end very badly), a wild boar, a bunch of hyped up wild turkeys, a loose dog (s)…..

To be clear this is not what I consider a baulk, but a very much appreciated alert to something unsettling ahead. I check it out and make the call when/if to move ahead. He is seeing or hearing something that I am not. I have come to trust his judgment as he is not alerting to the horse eating wood nymph or the troll under the bridge or the monster in the mailbox, but real things that could make a dangerous mess when riding with a string of horses. This is different than the horse that alerts to everything mundane or dangerous, which for me would be a negative in a trail horse.

So good judgement and not blind obedience (never doing anything that they were not specifically told to do) or the opposite of alerting to every leaf blowing in the wind, would be high on my list of things that makes a good trail horse.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Maybe it is the same mentality as those who will insist on calling themselves "I'm just a trail rider" There is no 'just' about it.


 Amen!!!!!!!


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

my trail horse better be able to think for both of us. i depend on my horses to get me over around and through stuff while i am dealing with 2-3 other things (bird dogs, livestock wife kids) I guess because I am not a "trail rider" i don't think about it, but in theory a field trial is not much different than a trail ride. 

In my mind a trail horse best go where pointed, uphill, down hill, sidehill, through water, mud and tangled down trees. But it better dang well have enough sense to argue with me long enough to make me look over a situation that is unsafe.

It should be able to lope through a pinewoods and look for the pine stump holes I'm not looking for while i am trying to find a lost dog, and also avoid trees in the process.

It ought to handle, neck rein or plow rein doesn't matter to me, but it best be right now.

Daylight and dark are both working hours. 

No freaking out over little things like stray dogs, or tree limbs tangled in their tail.

Should be able to jump down trees in a bind (2ft MAX for me).

Basic manners are also a necessity. Being able to pony another horse in a pinch is a given.

Most of the things I have listed are not trained, but are things a horse either will or won't do given the opportunity to try. 

This is my definition of a trail horse.

Jim


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Change said:


> My version of a good trail horse is one that will step over a downed tree or plow through underbrush, walk alongside a busy road without flinching at traffic, slide down a hill or power up one, stand on a loose rein without fidgeting, tolerate gunfire, face down dogs, cross water, etc.
> I'm not too concerned about a pretty side pass so long as I can open/close gates. Neck reining and yielding to leg are necessary though! I want it to back or give fore or hind to get out of or through a tangled mess of whatever while I'm keeping branches out of my face.
> It needs to be aware of where it is and where it puts its feet, and sometimes be smarter than me.
> I want to dismount in the middle of nowhere, drop the reins and know the horse will stay where I left it, and stand quietly while I mount and settle in.
> ...


^^^*^This, this and THIS. Especially the part about broke to traffic. Add slogging thru knee deep mud without having a major panic attack, along with knows how to slide down a hill and dig up the other side without a roll-over.

I always carried my stuff in knapsack on my back. My horses had to know how to quietly compensate, if the knapsack shifted and I had to re-adjust it, or if I had to swing it around to get something out of it. They knew fidgeting was. OT an option and to just hang their heads in disgust, lollol

I have had some pretty flashy looking trail horses thru the years. I don't give a rat's patoot if they know how to do any dressage, or know the formal and acceptable leg/seat cues.

I have done 95% of my trail riding bareback. My horses all knew or know lower AND upper leg cues, seat cues, will neck rein with my pinky finger (reins in one hand), will "neck rein" with my knees if we're hill climbing between rocks.

Did they know those cues when I bought them? No but they were well started by other savvy trail riders and I've lived in four states, over the years. A "salt of the earth" trail rider asks two simple questions:

1. How broke is that horse? Real trail riders don't exaggerate to each other when it comes to how broke that horse is.

2. Ok I bought him, now tell me what his flaws are. We don't lie about this either because sooner or later we run into each other, on the trail, lol

I have looked at some "well broke" trail horses in my lifetime, lollol. No they were not, unless hacking on a well groomed Metro Park trail is someone's idea of well broke:icon_rolleyes: metro Park trails to me, are a day's break from the real world of trail riding. For my horses, it was a break from having to think too hard.
.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

To me, no matter what you do with a horse the horse's mind is the most important thing. A body free of physical problems follows right after.
A horse with a good mind is easily trainable and typically doesn't have horrible freak outs and spooks over scary or new or familiar things. My own mare at 5 years old, whom as far as I knew had never been around noisy trucks, plodded along like a 20 year old veteran when an extremely loud lifted truck repeatedly kept blazing past us in an attempt to spook the horses. She also as far as I knew had never dragged anything before, but at a trail clinic was the only horse who dragged the tire on rope without any freak outs. Don't get me wrong, she's not perfect and has plenty of flaws. She does not fit the bill for breeding quality temperament as far as my standards go (unless I was purposefully breeding for a horse a bit more combative and spirited). But when its really mattered, she has been absolutely perfect.
Then you have the 'other' kind of mind. I am thinking in particular about one lady I knew who bought an arab yearling and trained him herself. She was older, and anybody that sees that horse around 'scary' stuff says he is going to kill her (I never said it, but have heard plenty of other people say it). Apparently, the horse now around 7 years old, she just rode him in the local parade. According to what I heard he went the whole parade traveling backwards freaking out, despite having been extensively ridden all over the place and done all kinds of things.

How a horse handles things I believe is much less training and more genetics. It is the quality of a good, sound, sane mind and temperament. I wish more breeders would make mind/temperament higher on their list of must haves.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Can be tied hard.

Can ground tie.

If the rider has an involuntary dismount the horse stops and doesn't run off on you.

Can drag logs.

Can pony and be ponied.

When tied on a high line does not bother horses next to it.

Drinks from any and all water sources.


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## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

I have no idea how "just a trail horse" or "only good enough for trails" has become an insult as a good trail horse is one very incredible horse.

I Good Trail Horse should have power steering (light in the bridle, moving off of seat and leg cues) and power brakes (again off of seat and not bridle). A Good Trail Horse should have gears with gaits, be able to cross water, logs, side pass, be spook proof (within reason), traffic safe which includes having farm equipment, cars, trucks, large trucks, and such with good sense. A Good Trail Horse should be a good thinker, not over reactive, but aware of it's environment and be just as happy to leave home as to come home. A Good Trail Horse can lead, pass, be passed, and accept new/different horses with minimal stink eye (my guy is still a work in progress on this one, he is easily annoyed). A Good Trail Horse should also be able to go to a local show and do well. A Good Trail Horse should also load and unload easily from any trailer/van.

A Good Trail Horse is worth their weight in gold and it is a shame that they do not nearly get the respect and recognition they deserve.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

There are a lot of great comments, including *JimmyP*, who field trials.

I FORGOT ABOUT THE FIELD TRIAL HORSES BECAUSE I've never done that but they really have to be of sound and quiet mind.

Not every good trail horse can make a good field trial horse.

And that segways into *horseluvr's* ending comment:



> How a horse handles things I believe is much less training and more genetics. It is the quality of a good, sound, sane mind and temperament. I wish more breeders would mak


The horse in my avatar was perfection in that regard ^^^^ he did not have one ounce of spook to his 14.3H. self. He wore the same "no fear" t-shirt going toe-to-toe with a llama, my parade costumes blowing everywhere in a parade, semis whizzing down the state highway, letting their Jake Brakes off beside him. He didn't care, he never flinched.

He hated ring work. Once he learned something he didn't feel it bore repeating in a ring but he could tell me where the next wood chuck hole was, move cows if he had to, over-step a snake without having a panic attack.

I turned down more offers to buy him, during our trail riding years than any other horse. Yet the fancy cues he knew were minimal and predicated upon my mostly riding him bareback. 

More than one person commented that Duke had more horse sense than a lot of people they knew. A farrier once commented, if he had a hundred horses exactly like Duke, he would never have to work again.

It didn't matter that Duke wasn't ring savvy and only liked the roundpen when the chiropractor was involved. It mattered that he was an intelligent thinking horse, that knew how to stay calm in an emergency on the trail


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Just a few things I expect my trail horse to do


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

^^^Boy do I have a deer hunting story for you, lol.

"Picture This" (think Ma from the Golden Girls).

1. Entire summer spent by expert hunter teaching her horse to stand for gunshots.

2. Waaay up in the Allegheny Mountains, come deer season. No cell phones back then.

3. Shoots deer. Horse stands perfectly.

4. Hunter fashions a travois to hook to horse - carry deer back to camp.

5. Hunter drags deer to travois.

5.1 Horse jittery but stands.

6. Hunter drags deer onto travois and starts to tie down.

6.1 Horse jitters continue to elevate.

7. Hunter barely finishes securing deer to travois when horse BOLTS for camp -- which is ~4-5 miles away.

8. Horse thunders into camp with travois slamming/swinging/banging into everything, include the horse's rump.

8.1 Horse goes between camp house and garage, headed for the safety of pasture, while the travois turns sideways and breaks loose between the house and garage.

8.1.1 ^^^As everyone whose holding a beer stares in amazement and have for once been rendered speechless, in their hunting lives.

9. They wait nearly an hour for the rider (one of the wives) and just when they decide to start a manhunt, she comes staggering wearily up the maintenance road into camp.

10. The deer was not salvageable but, had it been, it was already mostly skinned from the ride home:gallop::gallop:
The moral of the story: Don't forget to teach the horse to carry something that is already dead.
The End:cheers::cheers:

While that was far from the last year she ever went deer hunting, it was the first and last year she went deer hunting with her horse:cowboy:


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

I sure didn't see anyone saying a good trail horse was inferior. If anything, the set of skills needed for trail riding is very specialized and only acquired through many miles of hard riding through difficult and challenging terrain. What skills are needed, and what skills are optional? I don't know. I only know that there are many seasoned trail horses that seem to have little training in leg cues. I'm apparently looking for a horse with two distinct sets of skills. It is proving hard to find. 


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

elle1959 said:


> I'm apparently looking for a horse with two distinct sets of skills. It is proving hard to find.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In all honesty, I think this is because a lot of trail riders I have met openly say they are bored in the arena. I don't think many of them spend time on refining the horse's cues.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm the one who put Avna up to starting this thread. I am following it and will comment. I'm composing my thoughts on it, but they are rambling all over the place right now. 

*Thank you Avna!!*


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

horseluvr2524 said:


> In all honesty, I think this is because a lot of trail riders I have met openly say they are bored in the arena. I don't think many of them spend time on refining the horse's cues.


That is me. I can't stand being in a roundpen or an arena and there is no doubt that transfers to the horse. 

I didn't have an arena or roundpen to train horses when I was growing up but all my horses were still trained to know leg cues and seat cues.

Ever since this poor leg/seat cue on trail horses came up, I've been trying to remember back to some of the people I did a lot of riding with; some of us trained our own horses.

We all used leg and seat cues. You were the scourge of the horsemen's earth if you "rode" your horse with your reins. It meant you were "riding the head" and either you didn't know how to ride or the horse wasn't broke too good.

I keep bringing up that I did hard trail riding most of my life, without a saddle. I would have been IN that infamous creek, had my horses not known both lower & upper leg cues, and seat cues.

I can't believe there are so many horses in today's world that don't understand leg and seat cues. I just think they aren't as polished as some folks expect them to be and some riders don't know how to ask the horse for what they want.

!aybe this is one of things to where the rider has learned the absolute proper way to ask for something but the horse never learned the finite details. 

Back when Rusty was being ridden by different people, they all knew how to ride but not all of them could communicate to Rusty what they wanted. 

The people who got Rusty to do anything and kept him on a loose rein, whether on the roads or in the woods, were the backyard riders with no formal training. They used their legs and seats, same as the schooled riders but they did better with him.

The well-schooled riders said I should send him to auction but I knew that was only because he embarrassed them, lol

So there is one theory - similar to the Plummer whose faucets only need bushings but he replaces the entire faucet. Overkill and horses are taking the rap for something they shouldn't


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## Surrealle (Feb 28, 2016)

If trail horses have to be able to jump, then I'm screwed. I tried to get Abby over a log in our obstacle course (I was on the ground) and in one fluid, elegant motion, she stepped over with her front two feet and promptly started grazing. With the log still underneath her. 

Clearly, my horse has different priorities than I do.. 
:lol:


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Well I am sure not just trying to cue the forequarters in one spot and then giving up. I don't know if you mean me, but I know the difference between a horse that will move off my leg and one that won't. 


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Rode my green horse on a three hour trail today. The longest she's ever been on -- I think maybe the twelfth trail ride she's ever been on. There was one very experienced rider on a seasoned horse and two not-so-muches and me. My little green Brooke sat on her butt and slid down a hill on a loose rein, picked her way down a gully half-mended with 8x8's she had to jump down, and scraped her way through liveoak brush on a trail I couldn't see. She went through a swamp and over some rills. Nothing she'd ever done before. 

She and I both were dang tired at the end. A lot of straight up and straight down in the sun. But never once did I feel she was not up to it, or that I was not safe with her. I would say she has the makings of a trail horse. She watched where her feet were and never panicked. I don't think you can train a horse to do this. 

Is she a trail horse? I wouldn't say she is yet. But she's heading that direction.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I mentioned that my thoughts were all over the place on this. I'm not much closer to assembling them now. I think I'll just separate it into several comments. 

I think we've already seen that there are a few different working definitions, depending on what that person needs. One horse that keeps popping into my mind is one that I only got to ride 3 times at most. He was a 14 year old gelding. A big chested, powerful walking horse. He had been a field trial horse before he came to this barn. 

I got a call to come evaluate him as quick as I could. He had just put a lady in the hospital with multiple broken bones and ruptured internal organs. She told folks that she would never ride again. No one saw her fall. She was alone in the arena at the time. The BO's wife just happened to look out the window to see the riderless horse running around.

The BO had him in a stall when I got there. I led him out to the hitching rail. He had perfect ground manners. Stopped where I wanted, stayed at my shoulder when we moved out, turned willingly both ways. HIs eyes were calm, but his neck was arched and his nostrils flared. Every exhale was a long drawn out snort. He stood calmly for tacking up. Then I led him around a bit more and took another hitch in the cinch. I took him into the arena, and he stood calmly for mounting. 

We walked calmly around one lap then started playing with the stuff in the arena. There was a pole bending course, some barrels, some big PVC pipes in different places. We stayed at a walk, and he neck reined through the pole bending course, around the barrels, and stepped calmly over the pipes. Then, I started doing random things. I aimed straight for barrels before deciding whether to go left or right. I turned tight around random poles. He was obedient, but I could feel him getting tense and frustrated. I took him for a turn around the arena at his gait. He did it, but his heart wasn't in it. Rather than push him to a breaking point like I suspect the lady did, I took him out to the perimeter trail around the farm. 

Once we got to the end of the drive and turned down the lane, his attitude changed completely. He was still walking calmly, but he was waiting for my cue. Every nerve in his body screamed at me. "THIS!!". "THIS is what I was born to do. WATCH ME!". 

I gave him the cue and he arched his neck, tucked his butt, and rolled down the lane. He wasn't fast like those long legged walkers with a lot of reach. But he was smooth and powerful. We got to the mucky seep spring on the back side. He checked his gait, lowered his head slightly, and picked his way through without a bit of hesitation. Then he picked up his rolling gait again. When I said "HO", he stopped. Right here, right now. We turned around and went back the way we had come. Still the same.

The BO and his wife were standing in the driveway watching. The wife is a kind hearted soul, and she knew that if I gave a thumbs down, that horse was headed south to the meat packers. She was standing there with her hand to her throat as I rode past. I could see the relief wash over her when I called out "He's a working horse! He don't give a hoot about dinking around in the arena!"

He passed muster on the actual trail as well. Never batted an eye at traffic. Rode out alone and with a group. Water and bridges were old hat to him. I never tried moving him around with my legs. I probably would have had he stayed longer. But he was far too hot for the mostly novice clientele at this barn, and he was sold pretty quick. I was sad to see him go. It had been a long, long time since I had that much horse under me.

Anyway. That's one direction my mind has been going.


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## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Like this guy. He pegs my want meter. Hope when I get settled . . .

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-1070985



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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with the well broke, unspooky horse for many people.

But you have to agree many would call an endurance horse a good trail horse. Although they go many miles on the trails, some things others want in a trail horse are not necessary. 
Some things I don't need: 
1) Ability to open gates
2) Turn on forehand
3) Ability to stand still or ground tie

Some things I need:
1) Tough skin that doesn't bleed every time we go through brush
2) Mental toughness and drive to keep going without being prodded
3) Ability to use their feet wisely and get through all kinds of terrain without injuring something
4) Ability to sweat and cool off
5) Ability to stop and eat and drink during a ride
6) Efficiency at some fast gait, either trot, canter or gaited
7) Ability to go out alone

The horse can be super spooky or excitable, that doesn't matter. But they need to be able to go over or through anything, and keep up a good pace. They also need to be able to communicate when they are sore or injured rather than trying to hide it.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Ground tie is worth its weight in gold, if you have one that will do it. Before I had a few that would I didn't really think about it. Now that most of mine will, I will never own one that doesn't.

Jim


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> One of the characteristics of a good trail horse that I have found myself growing to really appreciate is a balance between obedience and judgement. I don’t know that it can be trained into a horse, but I think it can be trained out of one by a rider who as a matter of routine ignores the horse’s input.
> 
> My current trail horse has good judgement. He will alert me to things up ahead. Sometimes it is a look to the brush ahead ears perked, sometimes it is a slowing of the pace followed by a stop, head high ears and eyes alert. When that happens, I know there is really something there we don’t necessarily want to walk into the middle of.
> 
> ...


 I agree with Reining. Obviously the horse needs some training, but I have found some green horses with the right mentality very good and safe on the trails. As for horses without the ability to do anything else....Well, a show horse with the right mentality could be an excellent trail horse. Turning that around a horse without the looks or ability to compete in higher levels could be valuable as a trail horse. Personally, I have taken every horse I have owned on trails (except for one broodmare who wasn't ridden at all) and never had a complaint with any of them.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

elle1959 said:


> I sure didn't see anyone saying a good trail horse was inferior. If anything, the set of skills needed for trail riding is very specialized and only acquired through many miles of hard riding through difficult and challenging terrain. What skills are needed, and what skills are optional? I don't know. I only know that there are many seasoned trail horses that seem to have little training in leg cues. I'm apparently looking for a horse with two distinct sets of skills. It is proving hard to find.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really do not think the skills required for trail riding are "very specialized." A calm, obedient horse without vices, and easy gaits? How specialized is that? Just add some trail exposure and there you are. Maybe not a remarkable trail horse, but a trail horse nonetheless. 

Now, an arena horse, to me, is a specialized horse. This would be a horse with a fairly high level of schooling, correctly responsive to subtle aids, who is capable of withstanding both the boredom and the pressure of drilling in an enclosed finite space. It needs to be willing to continually execute exacting maneuvers that have no extrinsic meaning or value to it with cheerfulness. 

To most ordinary horses, moving down a trail is obvious and natural. It's something horses do in their natural life -- follow a leader on a journey through a landscape. 

Perhaps because of this, "just a trail horse" can mean a horse who is calm but quite ignorant of training.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Avna said:


> I really do not think the skills required for trail riding are "very specialized."
> ...Now, an arena horse, to me, is a specialized horse.
> ..."just a trail horse" can mean a horse who is calm but quite ignorant of training.


That sounds logical, but in real life experience I've seen many more people that struggled to take their trained arena horses out on trails than struggled to take their trail horse inside to have them perform in an arena. The control required to have a horse listen and respond to cues in a bland and unexciting environment usually is less than what is required out on a trail. Often a horse will also be more focused on a rider without the outside stimulus, so for instance if you decide to reverse direction in an arena the horse may be listening for that cue, but if you decide to reverse on the trail the horse may be distracted or surprised by your request.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

gottatrot said:


> That sounds logical, but in real life experience I've seen many more people that struggled to take their trained arena horses out on trails than struggled to take their trail horse inside to have them perform in an arena. The control required to have a horse listen and respond to cues in a bland and unexciting environment usually is less than what is required out on a trail. Often a horse will also be more focused on a rider without the outside stimulus, so for instance if you decide to reverse direction in an arena the horse may be listening for that cue, but if you decide to reverse on the trail the horse may be distracted or surprised by your request.



I would like this if the "LIKE" feature was working.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> That sounds logical, but in real life experience I've seen many more people that struggled to take their trained arena horses out on trails than struggled to take their trail horse inside to have them perform in an arena. The control required to have a horse listen and respond to cues in a bland and unexciting environment usually is less than what is required out on a trail. Often a horse will also be more focused on a rider without the outside stimulus, so for instance if you decide to reverse direction in an arena the horse may be listening for that cue, but if you decide to reverse on the trail the horse may be distracted or surprised by your request.


What you are saying is very true, but it doesn't negate what I am saying, if you see what I mean. We are talking about two different skills sets. 

A lot of arena horses have very little *experience* focusing on a rider while the environment is exciting and interesting. Trail horses do, because they've been taught to. This is part temperament but also very much how a trail horse is brought up -- they are constantly required to simply trust and go forward, no matter what. They have many many *experiences* of being uncertain, going forward, and nothing happens. So they get habituated to that. 

When I was growing up, it was very rare to encounter a horse who came unglued just because it was asked to go somewhere, at least in the circles I rode in. This included people who showed their horses in various venues. It was just that the expectation and the practice was different then.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Well I have an entirely different slant on this. I first look for good strong front legs and hooves. Then I look for a horse that is "square on all four corners". The only temperament problem that I will reject is herd bound. A herd bound horse is just too much trouble. Going by most of these comments here, my horse would be a total reject. But I can assure you that I have put a lot of miles on this old guy.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I think it depends on the horse. I have seen good trail horses when brought into a metal indoor with cows mooing, and Luke Byrant (gags) music blaring, tractors soomthing dirt, and the smell of diesel hanging in the air, and they got a little fractious. Then add the fact the good trail horse was partnered with another horse and rider pair that had no clue what cows were, what to do with said cows, how to respond to any cue, and the rider running that horse around the pen trying to sort cows screaming, 'yah yah, YAH!', and thumping the rib cage like it was a bass drum. 

Fractious indeed.

Have to admit, after the first two runs trail horse settled down.

All that stimuli in his face was difficult. Because the trail horse is use to the solitude of the woods with nothing but deer, turkey, babbling brooks, some hikers, dirt bikers, ATVs.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> That sounds logical, but in real life experience I've seen many more people that struggled to take their trained arena horses out on trails than struggled to take their trail horse inside to have them perform in an arena. The control required to have a horse listen and respond to cues in a bland and unexciting environment usually is less than what is required out on a trail. Often a horse will also be more focused on a rider without the outside stimulus, so for instance if you decide to reverse direction in an arena the horse may be listening for that cue, but if you decide to reverse on the trail the horse may be distracted or surprised by your request.


I have seen that at a lot of barns also horses that are not as responsive in an outdoor arena as they are indoors. Lack of exposure and in some cases lack of rider's confidence, but not every horse can do it all. I do think that good trail horses are underestimated because some of them are far from "fancy". I have known plenty in this category that were bombproof and could go from giving an experienced rider a good ride, to baby sitting a five year old


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bandit does pretty good in the desert. He tolerates some arena riding, but my arena is more a glorified round pen, so it is hard to keep him interested. What he finds tough is this:








​ 
Garbage cans are hard. People who park their cars in strange places - ie, different than the last time we rode by - make it hard. Cars driving by are OK, unless they are delivering mail and planting bombs in the mailboxes.

Someone spraying for bugs, or a roofer putting on tar? Torment!

Why do people decorate their yards with inflatable snowmen and penguins around Christmas? Why do they fly flags? And what demon from hell invented the bicycle? What is a weedwhacker, and why do they get so angry? What's a good-hearted mustang/arabian supposed to do?


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

For me, I see many people at my barn with horses that are well trained arena horses but unreliable on the trails. One person is recovering from multiple rib fractures caused by a spooky horse that dumped her out there. 

There are only a handful of people I'd ride out with on a horse I'm testing there because I know their horses aren't going to act like idiots and cause a chain reaction of stupidity if a bird flies out of a bush. Horses spook and the trail is where they are likely to spook the most and the worst, I think. It's been said to me that you can much more easily train a horse to go well in an arena than you can make one sane on the trail, and I believe it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Like Cordilla Cowboy, I needed to sort through my thoughts on this question. There is so much involved there are entire books devoted to it. I tried to keep it down to only a short book. 

I have ridden a lot of horses on trails over the years, but have only ridden a natural trail horse a few of those times. Then I got lucky and now I own two. The big difference to me resides within the nature of the horse itself. 

There are horses born to run, born to jump, born to do dressage, born to work cattle and born to do trails. What they were “born” to do may be contrary to their heritage. When you find that “fit” for them, they come alive underneath you. 

That doesn’t mean that the horse born to run can’t learn dressage or the horse born to jump can’t learn to work cattle, but there are disciplines where a horse simply shines when they do it. It comes from the inside out.

When you ride a horse in their element like that you can’t help but smile at the sheer joie de vivre they express! Any additional training you put on a natural trail horse is icing on the cake. The hardest part is finding that horse to begin with.

That having been said, IME a skill is often optional until you suddenly really need it and then it can become excruciatingly mandatory. 

I realized this during the wild fires we had in Texas a few years ago. My horses were ridden locally and never needed to be trailered to hit some good trails, quite a few trail riders around to ride with. 

It occurred to me as ash was raining down like snow, that if we got the word to evacuate, that I wasn’t entirely certain how quickly they would load, it had been a long time since we had needed to do it and emotions would be high, exacerbated by the unknown time frame of smoke and flames, cut off escape routes which were limited to begin with.

A skill that had always been somewhat optional from a regular usage perspective, suddenly became what could have been a life or death situation for my animals and possibly my family. 

At that point, in my horsemanship journey, I also realized something else. 
My perception of necessary training was limited to the familiar and routine environment we were riding. We now make it a point to trailer out at least once a week and my list of needed skills has expanded tremendously as I have encountered different horses, footing, people, flora and fauna. 

Where I live http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...87N-2.JPG/300px-Texas_Hill_Country_187N-2.JPG

Two hours west http://file.answcdn.com/answ-cld/im...60,f_jpg/v1400952528/oejjlhdkm3hxv8wo8hdj.jpg 

Two hours east http://www.texaslandconservancy.org/images/stories/Properties/EastTexas/greensbayoupreserve.jpg 

An hour South http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Pedernales_Falls_State_Park.JPG 

Three hours south http://beachtreasuresandtreasurebeaches.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/ferry5.jpg 

An hour North http://bestofamericabyhorseback.com/assets/Tom_waving.jpg 

Lots of diversity of environment here. 

In essence we needed to change from swimming comfortably in a small pond to taking the plunge into a far larger one so that we can grow to be more than we are and perhaps reach our full potential together. 

That possibility for personal growth in experience is what shapes my mandatory skills list for both trail horse and rider and begins with the horse’s ability and willingness to adapt his mind to different situations, sights, sounds and smells without losing their cool.

My goal for Oliver my primary trail horse, a “green as grass” horse a little over a year ago, is for him to become a well-rounded horse who can ride in an arena, bend some poles with just leg and seat, jump, navigate an obstacle course, do some very basic dressage and point and go riding trails of any sort, which is where his heart is. He really doesn’t like the arena and loses focus in about ½ hour. I don’t want an arena to ever become a punitive environment so we keep it brief and as fun as I can make it for him, while still learning new things.

Several of you have said it; a horse that is a natural at trails and has a lot of buttons is a rare find. I want my horses to be that rare find. That way if anything ever happens to me, they will always have a home with someone who appreciates them as special, no matter where they want to ride them.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Very well put!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The big difference to me resides within the nature of the horse itself.
> 
> There are horses born to run, born to jump, born to do dressage, born to work cattle and born to do trails. What they were “born” to do may be contrary to their heritage. When you find that “fit” for them, they come alive underneath you.
> 
> ...


What beautiful and interesting places you have to ride. Very good post, my "like" button isn't working. 
It's odd, but with an endurance horse it is the same, even though they are not necessarily the best at not being spooky, or at facing every danger calmly on the trail. So perhaps they aren't born to be trail horses, but yet they are born to go for miles and miles and that is what makes them shine. It is a great thing to find what a horse loves to do and then to let them do it.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> What beautiful and interesting places you have to ride. Very good post, my "like" button isn't working.


You can regain the ability to "like" posts and also the old look by scrolling down to the bottom left and selecting "horse forum classic."


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hmm, I keep hoping they'll fix it in the new style because although everyone else seemed to like those colors, I always thought the pea green was rather nauseating. :wink:


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm hoping too. I like the new look better, but in the meantime I'm just going for function. Hopefully they'll figure it out soon


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> Hmm, I keep hoping they'll fix it in the new style because although everyone else seemed to like those colors, I always thought the pea green was rather nauseating. :wink:


LOL doggone ya! I think I'm one of the chief agitators for the pea soup.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Well, I'm back. Got sidetracked with all the new stuff, but I've figured out enough to feel my way around a bit. 

Several good comments have been made. Many of them somewhat mirror my own thinking. I'll not even try to remember who said what. I'd surely get it wrong. But I'll continue with my scattered thoughts. 

Some of this seems to be generational. It's becoming more rare these days to meet young people who grew up around horses. I also think the available horses are reflecting this. This quote from a previous comment very much mirrors my own experience. 

"When I was growing up, it was very rare to encounter a horse who came unglued just because it was asked to go somewhere, at least in the circles I rode in. This included people who showed their horses in various venues. It was just that the expectation and the practice was different then. "

We did things with our horses, and expected them to handle it. As a teen, I trained a colt from the ground up. Outside of the field he was born in and the one he spent his weanling year in, he never left our small place until he was 3, maybe 4 years old. We had a very small riding ring, and lots and lots of dirt road and old logging roads. One day, we took the ponies and my little sisters to a small open show. Things were going well for them. My dad and I had the same thought. We looked at each other and shrugged. We took the high sided pickup truck back to the house and backed it up to an embankment. The colt walked right in, and rode the 30 or so miles to the show. No fuss, no muss. I think the show was in a school yard. Plenty of noise and activity. I rode him in a western pleasure class, and took fourth place. He had never been near an arena, or crowd, or PA system.

I guess that's why it often puzzles me when folks say "my horse won't do this, or won't do that". We never put much worry into it. We had the horses for a reason. We took them out and did things with them.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Oh I agree with this. Years ago I remember talking with a friend about this very thing.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

A friend of mine that I trail ride with was talking about maybe 25 years ago (which given her present age, would have made her more than legal drinking age), she and a group of her friends used to hop on their horses, ride over the ridge and down to the bar in town, hitch their horses up somewhere, drink 'till the bars closed and then the horses would take them home, in the dark in mountain lion country, without helmets. Most of the time, they were drunker than skunks. 

The majority of us wouldn't dare take those kind of risks today. Things have definitely changed. It might not be just the horses but the people who ride them as well.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I guess that's why it often puzzles me when folks say "my horse won't do this, or won't do that". We never put much worry into it. We had the horses for a reason. We took them out and did things with them.


I am often puzzled by this myself. When I work with a horse I don't know, I start on the ground and figure out where they are on ground manners. This is the first session and I am getting to know the horse and what drives him, motivates him, essentially what method works best for him. Next session, assuming the first session went well, we move to working under saddle, part 2 of getting to know the horse. I find out what he knows and if he responds to the same amount of pressure used on the ground or if it is different.
Usually by the third session, I have a really good feel for the horse. If they decide not to do something, most of the time I can make them do it because I understand the mind of this individual horse. So riding out? Not a problem.

Your statement reminds me of a group of ladies I rode with once. We came to a playground, and since no one was around and the other horses were assessing this death trap and how best to avoid it (freaking out, spooking), I rode my mare up to it. She rode through the whole thing, sniffing and blowing a bit at some of the stuff, and back out just fine. I remember one lady there sneering "I am not riding my horse through that, she's not ready for that." I swear she said this with disdain and I have no idea why.
That horse probably would have rode through just fine, if her rider expected her to. Most of the time, a horse does what you expect of them. If you expect them to act up, they will, because a horse is a pleasing creature and tries very hard to do what is expected or asked.

Here is an analogy for you. You are working in a mine. Your overseer/leader of your group seems very nervous and tense about entering a certain tunnel, but tells you to do so anyway. Would you do as he asked, or would you reconsider thinking the tunnel must be unsafe?
Our horses do much the same. You are his leader and must be confident. If you tense up, but still say "I want you to walk up to this tarp", but you are tense because you and your body are expecting him to act up, then he reads your tense body language as "this is something to be scared of, we should run." You are his leader and he trusts your judgement, of course.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horses and confident leader...gotta disagree. Why? Because I could not count the number of times a horse (usually Mia) blew up on me when I was totally confident. I also have frequently been nervous, and my horse has cruised on without the flick of an ear.

The physically hardest Mia ever spooked was the day her saddle slipped during the spook:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

At the time of the explosion, I was about to pull my feet out of the stirrups because she was so utterly calm and there was NOTHING to worry about.

OTOH, last Christmas someone had decorated their yard with a 6' tall inflatable penguin (don't ask me what that had to do with Christmas), and it was blowing in the wind. I expected Bandit would freak...and he didn't twitch an ear. Went by as if 6' tall inflated penguins lived in his corral.

I've heard the "confident rider" theory often enough, but it does not in any way correlate with how my horses respond. There have been too many times when I was confident, another horse had just gone past X without a flicker - and I ended up on a horse doing a sideways trot through the neighbor's yard. Or vice-versa.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> That horse probably would have rode through just fine, if her rider expected her to. Most of the time, a horse does what you expect of them. If you expect them to act up, they will, because a horse is a pleasing creature and tries very hard to do what is expected or asked.


This is where I felt I was getting to with Gracie, after a week of riding her. The last day out there was an opportunity for her to spook big, but she stood while all the other horses acted up. All week long I was encouraging her through her looky moments and her minor spooks, just giving her a cluck and a little leg to let her know it was okay to just walk on. By the time something big actually happened, she was willing to stand there with me and trust that it was not the end of the world. Now, i was out with very experienced riders on very good horses so I know that much of this is the horse, not me. I'm not that experienced but I did have a horse that was not super spooky and that was willing and had learned to trust me so, in that particular moment, it worked out, mainly because I didn't expect her to be stupid. I expected her to be good, and she was.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

BSMS, I think both can be correct.

I have one horse who is supremely confident, in himself and the world around him; things in Ollie-world are in control and predictable (predictably unpredictable) . That kind of horse requires a rider who is not only confident in their own skills but shows the kind of leadership he values. In his case, because he is not nervous, he is very much aware of a rider who is less than confident (or over confident).

Cowboy on the other hand has no confidence, in himself, in the world around him or in humans. In his case the mental state of his rider is of no consequence because he is so tied up in his own nervousness, his rider's state of mind doesn't even register a 1 on the Richter scale.

You can see it in my avatar to the left. The brown horse is a mare, the black one is Oliver and the white one is Cowboy, as usual, not quite sure he will be allowed into the party. 

An analogy would be sitting in a boat out on the open water during a storm. When you are in 10’ waves, you don’t notice the impact ripples made by the raindrops, but on a clear and windless day you can watch the ripples from one pebble go on all the way across the surface to the shore.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I've felt that some Arabs and some TBs and QH can be an exception to the rule, as well as the odd horse of a breed not listed.

In general though, I have found what I stated before to be true. Can't count how many times I've heard "How come s/he doesn't act that way with you" or "Sure s/he doesn't do it with you but with me".
I'm not claiming to be a horse whisperer or the greatest trainer or rider out there, but I have noticed that horses respond well to my general manner and way of carrying myself. Its more of a quiet confidence. I don't pretend like I'm so good I can't hit the dirt.

I once helped to exercise a couple of racehorses in training. It was my first and only experience working with a stud. I had ridden the mare several times, she was quieter and I liked her a lot. She seemed to save her energy for what really mattered, and had a huge ground eating stride. The stud colt pranced and did normal stud behavior. He was well behaved though.
One day the guy had us switch horses. I was calm riding out (horses were exercised around farm fields) and the stud colt produced a nice, active, flat walk while the filly pranced under the guy. He was bewildered, especially when the stud colt was so relaxed he seemed to be halfway asleep through training!
Granted, I was nervous about riding the stud. Calm walking the roads, but when it came time to gallop I had those butterflies in my belly. After a few tries the stud 'woke up' and did what owner wanted.

I found the difference between the two horses different behaviors under different riders interesting. Perhaps it was not that I had a great calming effect on the horse but that his owner had an effect to make them high energy, prancy, nervous. But it was very strange how it seemed the horses had switched brains or something, like Freaky Friday, and the only thing that changed was a different rider.

This and other experiences have led me to believe that the rider has a great effect on the horse's mind.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

horseluvr2524 said:


> Most of the time, a horse does what you expect of them. If you expect them to act up, they will, because a horse is a pleasing creature and tries very hard to do what is expected or asked....
> Our horses do much the same. You are his leader and must be confident. If you tense up, but still say "I want you to walk up to this tarp", but you are tense because you and your body are expecting him to act up, then he reads your tense body language as "this is something to be scared of, we should run." You are his leader and he trusts your judgement, of course.


I agree with you up to a point, but I think you're missing part of the story. It's very true what you say about your body language communicating your own fears to your horse. 

Obviously if you want to introduce him to something new, you must approach the new place or object in a confident and relaxed fashion. Horses are great mirrors of ourselves and it's worthwhile analyzing your own body language when you're working with them, to make sure you're expressing the right sentiments. Horses are acutely sensitive to the movements of other animals (I include humans in that term), particularly when they are in an unusual situation and they are searching for cues on whether it's safe to continue or it's better to turn tail. 

If you're leading your horse, he will be aware of your movements and take his cues from you. Why do you think it's so easy to teach a horse to mirror your movements on the ground working at liberty? You run forward, he trots with you. You stop, he freezes. All the trainer has done is to refine the horse's natural impulses: 'lead mare trots, I do as well - don't want to get left behind - uhoh, she's stopped, must be something bad, whooaa!'

So yes, rider confidence certainly helps, and nervousness will certainly cause problems, but as ReiningCD has explained so well, there is another factor in the equation - the horse! So many people get hung up on the confident rider thing and seem to forget that it's the horse that makes the decision of whether you go forwards - or sideways or even backwards - at the end of the day. IMO, the confident rider theory is simplistic. Sure, confidence helps, but it is in no way a guarantee that your horse will behave. And equally, if your horse is scared, it doesn't automatically mean that you are exuding nervousness, or that your horse lacks respect for you, or any of the other theories that folks throw out happily. 

But I digress from the real question of what makes a good trail horse. I would like a confident, forward, thinking horse rather than a blindly obedient one. A horse that listens to me but doesn't depend on me to make every decision. All the rest, whether the horse knows to sidepass, back up, ground tie etc. is just a matter of polishing the rough edges. If the horse has the right character, you can train him to do whatever manoeuvres you need in your trail situation in just a few sessions, but if he has flaws in his character you can polish him until you're blue in the face but you'll never change that. 

Now I want to turn the original question round: what makes the ideal trail rider, from the horse's point of view? I think the same goes for the rider as for the horse - they should be forward and confident, they should think rather than go forward blindly, and above all they should listen to their horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

One of the best commanders I worked for told me he hired based on attitude. He said he could teach a person of average ability to do most jobs well, but he couldn't teach a good attitude to someone sour. In the years that followed, I watched that advice proven true again and again.

I need to moderate my statement on nervous horses. I tend to overreact to the "confident rider" theory because I got sick of hearing it. "Just be confident with Mia!" But I could be supremely confident with her, and have a major explosion. And yes, she liked me and trusted me. If I was on the ground and she was scared, she would run to me and wait for me to make things right. But on her back...she would forget I was there! That was why, when she bolted, the best way to handle it was to A) keep riding, and B) call her name softly. Once she remembered me, her mind was back and getting her to behave was easy.

Over a period of YEARS, I realized I needed to do things differently. Again and again, I'd take what I thought were small steps forward, and she would melt down. I finally accepted that what looked like small steps to me often looked like huge steps to her, and that she needed more time at each baby step. She had an incredible memory, but that worked against retraining her. It took HUNDREDS of good experiences to overwrite a couple of bad ones.

The other thing I needed was to include her in the decision-making process. She would obey me, just because, up to a point. But if she wasn't buying in to things, inside her, then continuing on drove a wedge between us, with her mind and confidence getting further and further away from me - until it snapped. To a degree I haven't experienced with any other horse, she was always "The Other" - a very distinct, and SEPARATE mind and personality - and there were TWO of us at all times.

Others noticed it as well. The trainer I hired, who did so much to help her, said you could not be on her back and not be aware that someone else was there, and thinking, and feeling, and involved about everything. Some horses are not like that. Just as Border Collies are bred to herd, many horses are bred to be submissive. Many are bred to want someone else to make the decisions.

When I got her involved in the decision-making, when it became "WE will figure this out" instead of "I'm telling you", we began to make progress. Slow progress. Slower in part because I also have a good memory, and had a hard time overwriting MY memories of when things went bad. It was also slower, I now realize, because my saddle was too large for my butt, and a hard seat saddle - polished leather and no padding - is called a "slick seat" saddle (with "slick swells, in my case) for a reason!








​ 
When your butt slides in a saddle like roller skates on ice, it is hard to be confident! But that was a TACK issue, and it wasn't until phantomhorse13 recommended a sheepskin cover that I discovered A) a 16" saddle was too big for me, and B) it is much easier to ride WITH the horse when your rump doesn't SLIDE across the saddle every time they do something!

But I had a chance to swap out Mia for Bandit last May, and all indications are it has led to a better life for her and probably a longer life for me, so no regrets. But I've taken it slow with Bandit because he was quite nervous, in a hidden sort of way. He had been "pushed past" things by a supremely confident rider, who admitted Bandit sometimes put up a fight. But I was 57, did most of my riding on pavement or between cactus, and not interested in fights.

Bandit is actually a lot like Mia, only at about 10% of the intensity. As Bondre puts it, "_I would like a confident, forward, thinking horse rather than a blindly obedient one. A horse that listens to me but doesn't depend on me to make every decision._" I'm finding I can train Bandit to be like that. He already has the intelligence and good will. He was not used to being allowed any part of the decision-making process. Getting him involved initially led to more fussing, but then we got over the hump and he started realizing I wanted him to talk to me, and that I would listen.

It took close to 6 months for his feet to grow out enough to be ridden off pavement barefoot, and then bad weather and a temporary job cut my riding down to once/week. But when I got him, I read some books on training horses for dressage and jumping, and they all recommended laying a foundation in

*Forward. Calm. Straight.
*​ 
So I tried, but I've now developed my own formula for training a good trail horse:

*Eager. Confident. Agile.*​ 
I don't just want a horse who will go forward, but one who looks forward to going forward. I don't want a horse who is just calm, but one who is confident - in himself, and in his rider. And I want a horse who is agile, which includes the dressage definition of "straight" to a point, but includes a greater variety of ways a horse can turn quickly or keep its feet when the footing is bad.

For success, I need to be confident. It is true that a nervous rider can make his horse nervous, too. *But confidence without connection doesn't cut the mustard.* And connection, to me, required I teach Bandit to trust me. Not by running him around in a round pen, but by putting him in increasingly stressful situations, and showing him I know how to handle it. After all, isn't that how HUMANS learn trust?

I'm in "the heart of the envelope" for Parelli - an older person, starting in horses, overhorsed, injured early on while riding, needing to learn how to trust a horse and get a horse to trust me. I don't think Parelli actually knows how to handle that situation, although that is the target audience for his marketing.

It is no use telling a 50 year old rider, with a year of experience, who has had a fall, "Be confident!" For one thing, it often doesn't work. And for another, many of us are not that good of an actor. The stories about being confident usually start with, "When I was a kid, no one had these problems". IOW, "I started riding as a kid, and don't understand why you middle-aged folks get nervous!"

Well, I started at 50. Was hurt fairly bad before I was 51. Overhorsed. Learning riding on my own. And I understand. Totally. I've been more scared on a horse than I was being shot at in combat.

My wife invited a friend to come over and ride Cowboy with us. The lady is a very nice woman, about 60, who likes horses. She owns one she almost never rides. Likes him, but is afraid to ride him. With good reason, actually. There is no value in telling her to "Be CONFIDENT". Her horse is a bundle of energy when he gets a chance to get out, and she has nothing but paved roads and desert to ride him in - ALONE. In her case, confident would equal "STUPID". But she may find what my wife is finding - 13.0 hand Cowboy is a confident and trustworthy horse when out with another horse. Cowboy is, in fact, an excellent "trail horse". Born in the wild. Smart. Likes older women. Hates arenas - very arena sour after a few years as a lesson horse. But if all his rider does is hang on, Cowboy will "Bring 'em back alive!"

To me - to return to the subject of this thread - that is the mark of a superb trail horse. He knows what he is doing. He isn't going to get hurt, so all his rider needs to do is stay on his back. Under a good rider, Cowboy can move pretty impressively for a 13 hand mustang! But put him out on a trail, with someone who almost never rides, and he'll "bring 'em back alive".

I want to get Bandit to that stage. We have a long ways to go, but the trend is my friend. And with horses, I've concluded it is ALL about the trend - are they getting softer? More responsive? Better balanced? More confident? More eager?

My wife rides about 6 times a year - although she wants to go out this morning, which would be 5 times in 7 days! This was her on Cowboy about a week ago, and I think it is a picture that shows what a good trail horse does - takes an inexperienced rider out, and brings them back, while teaching the RIDER to be "eager":








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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

You both are right, and again it is a generalized statement. I've found confidence cannot be forced. It has to come from good experience and trust in yourself to handle any situation a horse throws at you.
I'm not saying "I'm a confident rider so horses I ride never spook". That would be stupid. They do spook. I suppose my trademark is that I stay calm and handle the situation quickly, and normally within a few seconds have the horse moving forward again. I used to stop and let the horse stare at every thing it spooked at. Now I just keep them moving and ride past, spook or not, and I have noticed they seem to spook less for me. Kind of like "That's not worthy of our attention. Keep moving."

Now, I didn't live "back then", but I am curious to know if the breeders in centuries past bred horses with a working attitude, and less of them breeding for show looks as is common these days. Perhaps the quality of our modern day horse is less than histories horses?


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

bsms said:


> I tend to overreact to the "confident rider" theory because I got sick of hearing it. "Just be confident with Mia!" But I could be supremely confident with her, and have a major explosion. And yes, she liked me and trusted me. If I was on the ground and she was scared, she would run to me and wait for me to make things right. But on her back...she would forget I was there! That was why, when she bolted, the best way to handle it was to A) keep riding, and B) call her name softly. Once she remembered me, her mind was back and getting her to behave was easy.


^^^^This. 

As a newer rider who has both lost and regained her confidence in a relatively short time span, I'm a bit put off by the tendency to blame the rider in all things when it comes to nervous horses. Some horses are reasonable, some horses are spooky, some horses are crazy, and if you put a rider without confidence on one of those spooky horses, you're going to have trouble. *You're likely also going to have trouble if you put a confident rider on, too*, and the outcome then probably have more to do with the SKILL of the rider in sitting out whatever the horse dishes up than the confidence of the rider, the horse, or that farmer out standing in the next field over. 

The truth is that this is a complex question with plenty of moving parts to it. Blaming the rider as a default does a disservice to those newer but observant riders who want to learn more than simply how to sit pretty on a quiet horse. Particularly with an older person, who is self-aware, has learned how to be observant in life and how to ask logical and thoughtful questions, all it does is discourage discussion because people like BSMS and myself already know that, 9 times out of 10, when we ask a question someone's going to trot out the old, tired canard about how a nervous rider makes a nervous horse, blah blah blah, when I can assure you I am NOT a nervous rider. 

So please, think about the person you're talking to before you drag this one out. It might be appropriate to a 16 year old with helicopter parents who's doing something independent for the first time in her life, but it might not be appropriate at all to someone with lots of life experience who knows quite well when they are anxiety ridden and when they are not. It doesn't further the discussion. It shuts it down.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Another thing I noticed is that many of the people who say "just be confident!" don't explain how.
I was giving my mother a mini lesson in arena and I could see her tensing, hands clenching, shallow breathing. Horse started tensing up as well and dancing around.
I didn't say "just be confident". I said "Relax. Deep breathe!" It worked.
Breathing is something often overlooked, IMO. Even if I start to tense and get nervous, I can in a way force my body to relax by deep breathing.
Granted, I have trained dressage and trained my body to stay relaxed. I suppose for me its muscle memory in a way.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

There is such a thing as the innate temperament of the rider as well as that of the horse. I have a 'cold seat' (love that phrase!); horses and all other animals, settle down with me. I have a challenge speeding animals up, rarely in slowing and calming them. 

Even when I am nervous it doesn't seem to translate that much to the horse. When I want a horse to relax I instinctively _loosen_ myself. My reins go slacker, my seat goes deeper, my legs go drapey. This is not something I taught myself as much as just who I am around animals. I guess what I am doing is modeling an attitude for the horse to follow.

When a horse spooks at something I often laugh. This is surprisingly effective in getting them to relax again. Maybe this too is modeling.

Now, when I want animation I can go sing for it, often enough.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Avna said:


> There is such a thing as the innate temperament of the rider as well as that of the horse. I have a 'cold seat' (love that phrase!); horses and all other animals, settle down with me. I have a challenge speeding animals up, rarely in slowing and calming them.
> 
> Even when I am nervous it doesn't seem to translate that much to the horse. When I want a horse to relax I instinctively _loosen_ myself. My reins go slacker, my seat goes deeper, my legs go drapey. This is not something I taught myself as much as just who I am around animals. I guess what I am doing is modeling an attitude for the horse to follow.
> 
> ...


I haven't been following this thread, so have only read this last page.

Boyyyyyy *Avna, *. Just said a mouthful that I could never be smart enough to say.


Her very first sentence regarding the innate temperament of both horse and rider, AND other animals. This is another gospel pearl of wisdom.

An excellent example is the obedience issue with our young Catahoula/mix. DH frequently asks why he listens so well to me but yips and jumps all over him.

It is unbelievable, the difference in "wait" that dog has if it's me vs. DH giving the orders.

DH is on blood thinner and more than once the dog has jumped on his arm and a toenail broke the skin, causing DH to bleed. The dog wouldn't dream of doing that with me and all I do is put my hand over his head with a firm NO! DH tries that and the dog still jumps.

So yes yes and yes to that inherent temperament of rider and horse play a huge role in their success as a team. 

I am becoming convinced that, no matter how a person tries to change outwardly, animals know it's a lie because they can smell the pheromones telling another story.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

inkunicorn:


elle1959 said:


> ^^^^This.
> 
> As a newer rider who has both lost and regained her confidence in a relatively short time span, I'm a bit put off by the tendency to blame the rider in all things when it comes to nervous horses. Some horses are reasonable, some horses are spooky, some horses are crazy, and if you put a rider without confidence on one of those spooky horses, you're going to have trouble. *You're likely also going to have trouble if you put a confident rider on, too*, and the outcome then probably have more to do with the SKILL of the rider in sitting out whatever the horse dishes up than the confidence of the rider, the horse, or that farmer out standing in the next field over.


This can also be true of the “push them through it” mentality and older inexperienced riders. Doing that takes confidence in your skills. Telling someone without those necessary skills to do that, and then telling them to be confident while doing it, is contradictory in its execution. Given time, they will get there.

There are certain situations I will push them through and certain situations that I will let them stop and gather their wits about them before asking again. If the normally thinking horse is being flipped into a reactive state of mind by my insistence they move forward, then my method of thought is that it is a good idea (for your own well-being) to give them a second to reset. 

Two recent examples; we were riding down a neighborhood road when we came upon a house where a live band was practicing in the garage with the door open. It was loud and we could hear it a ¼ mile away. As we approached, the band was practicing one particular segment, starting and stopping. The drummer would then practice a stanza on his own. This stilted sound was concerning Ollie and as we got closer his ears were all over the place like a couple of radar dishes and his walk slowed and became tense movement, I asked him to move on. He was still thinking so we were good, we pushed through, he relaxed and sped back up.

Same ride….we had our first baulk in over 1000 hours under saddle. We were walking up the road and saw three boys, maybe 12 years old sitting on the rock cliff side of the road. Suddenly three more boys came crashing through the juniper brush and leapt off the cliff and landed in the middle of the road maybe thirty feet in front of us. Oliver stopped dead in his tracks and then rapidly backed up. He was still in a thinking frame of mind though. Creeped out, but not paniced. 

I immediately tried to push him forward towards the boys who were now walking on the street, he was having none of it. My pushing him quickly forward was putting him into a reactive state of mind; His head started tossing, he backed up, and now, additionally he added wanting to turn and run to his repertoire. 

I was saying go forward and he was responding to my increased energy by engaging his instinct to turn and run from the two footed mountain lions that had launched themselves out of the brush ahead and were now walking towards us.

Having seen what happened to a colt starter friend of mine and my trainer and several other riders when this horse goes reactive and is then pushed further (bones were broken), I know I do not want to put this horse in a reactive state of mind and then push. He does not learn while there and I wanted him to learn. So….. I stopped pushing.

We stood there a moment and we stopped fighting. All I asked of him was just stand. He looked at the situation and quickly realized the flying monsters were only humans and so on we went (I talked to the boys and asked them to stop jumping out until we were well past). 

We passed the same spot on the way home with the same boys sitting on the cliff and someone still crashing around in the brush and he had no problems walking calmly by.

Now I could have gone into a five minute fight with my horse, possibly triggering an issue such as a rear or buck (in which there is no guarantee I would stay on and asphalt hurts) that didn’t have to happen, or give him a second to think things through and then calmly like a good confident leader, ask him to move on. 

A lot of this has to do with understanding type of horse I was riding. Like I brought up in my first post on this thread, he doesn’t react to stupid things like an open mailbox or a tree stump, he has legitimate concerns and so I afford him the time to think and learn through them, knowing that next time we encounter something similar, there will not be an issue. Different horse, might get a different response from me, but that is a judgement call on my part as a longtime rider.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Another quality which is hard to acquire is timing. I have great timing with dogs. I correct when the dog is THINKING about misbehaving. This comes from decades of training dogs and observing dogs. I know what they're thinking as they are thinking it. It is "automatic" but I am sure I didn't always have it. I'm better with horses than I ought to be considering how much recent riding time I've had, because of the dog experience, but I'm nowhere near as good, still. 

I believe timing is a large part of why better riders get better rides, right from the time they settle into the saddle. 

This is getting to be a thread hijack, but I just want to say that improving is not a mere matter of practice, as I know many people who never seem to improve no matter how long they ride or train. Improving is a matter of focused concentrated minute corrections, continued over time until it becomes habitual. 

A lifetime of work, in other words.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> Another thing I noticed is that many of the people who say "just be confident!" don't explain how.
> I was giving my mother a mini lesson in arena and I could see her tensing, hands clenching, shallow breathing. Horse started tensing up as well and dancing around.
> I didn't say "just be confident". I said "Relax. Deep breathe!" It worked.
> Breathing is something often overlooked, IMO. Even if I start to tense and get nervous, I can in a way force my body to relax by deep breathing.
> Granted, I have trained dressage and trained my body to stay relaxed. I suppose for me its muscle memory in a way.


True.  I've learned, and am still learning, that confidence comes from a number of things. One of those things is being reasonably sure that you can handle what the horse gives you, and this means you need to know something about the horse. 

Last week I got on a horse for the first time. She was a little bit looky and nervous. Her name was Gracie. I didn't see anything horrible in what she was doing, but because she seemed looky and seemed to startle easily, I was cautious and aware. 

As the week wore on, I gained more confidence *in her * because, even though she is a cautious horse, she isn't a crazy horse that will bolt at any sign of trouble. That also added confidence in myself because I felt like I could handle her. *As a team *we were able to relax enough and trust each other enough that, when the big spook test finally came on that last day, we both did great.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia was bred for racing. I suspect a lot of horses bred for competitive spirit - and she had it in spades - are also less submissive and more self-reliant than horses bred to do work on a ranch. Her self-will was a big reason her new owner wanted her. They are using her as a broodmare to breed racing horses for the Navajo style endurance races. The "You Cannot Conquer Me" attitude is great for a race horse, not so much for an "Old Guy Learning to Ride" horse...

Bandit bucked with me today. We just finished a 2 hour trail ride. We went into territory he hasn't seen before. He was OK with it. Then I asked him to take up the trail position, instead of riding point. He did NOT like that. Never has. He also was bred with racing in mind, and it sometimes shows. After a couple hundred yards of being behind, he had enough. Crossing a small wash, we dipped into the wash, and starting to climb back out...he decided to buck. 

Rocks underneath us, cactus on either side, climbing up out of a wash, and HE decides to buck. I put one hand on the horn, to help me if he started spinning (he didn't). The rein hand came up hard and violent, bringing his head with it. He tried bucking but couldn't get much power into it with his head up. I was cussing up a storm. We ended up on the level ground just past the wash, with him not bucking.

But my cussing spooked Trooper, who doesn't like me and who has always, for the 8 years I've owned him, assumed I'm a monster pretending to be nice. So my youngest told me to shut up and ride, which isn't exactly what your youngest is supposed to say, but...she was right. Hard to knock someone for being right when you are wrong! So Bandit and I did a few quick 180 degree turns while I tried to talk nice to Trooper. Enough to help my daughter calm Trooper. Then Bandit had to ride behind for 1/4 mile because there was no place wide enough to pass. And when we DID take the lead, he spent the next 1/4 mile prancing.

That is OK. Lots of people pay good money for a horse who will prance, and take lessons on how to get him to prance. So if I get it for free, I'm a lucky guy!

Then he calmed down, and the rest of the ride was uneventful. Winds picked up and he didn't care. Did the OMG Crouch at a plastic bag blowing in the wind. I didn't care, so a second later he moved on. Score a point for "Confident rider, confident horse".

But here is my point: After 8 years of riding, that is all OK. I wasn't scared. ****ed, but not scared. Unlike Mia, Bandit will buck when he gets upset. My job is to teach him bucking is one of the few "*Aw HELLLLLLL No!*" rules in our riding. 8 years ago, that would not be OK. And for the 60 year old woman who may go riding with us in a few weeks, it would not be OK. Having the poor judgment to buck in a spot with pee-poor footing & cactus on either side, on a 45 degree slope, was a sign of a poor trail horse. But a horse cannot get good judgment without experience, and the mother of experience is bad judgment - so it was a training opportunity.

But I would not consider asking my daughter or wife to ride him now. I'm up to it. They are not. Although my wife, on her 5th ride this week (after maybe 4 rides in the previous YEAR), was very proud that she didn't get nervous on Cowboy. It would take a lot to get very nervous on Cowboy, but that is OK. Part of what makes him a very good trail horse is that, in a spot like that, a very green rider COULD feel proud that she kept on her horse. That is why I really like that rolly-polly, 13.0 hands of chubby pony! He was going to stay safe, and keep his rider safe, regardless of what Bandit did!

But most of the time, when people have told me to just "Be confident", they were telling me to be stupid. When your horse is spinning on a paved road, with her eyes rolling, being confident...well, it might not hurt, but I was always too busy staying on to worry about being confident! And a HORSE like that is no horse for a beginning rider, particularly a beginning rider who is learning riding from the horse.

There are undoubtedly riders who baby their horses into becoming spook monsters, but there are also just horses that beginning riders should not be on. Mia was one. Bandit is another. While Cowboy is a great beginner's horse. Unless you ride him in an arena, where he was so "naughty" and "rebellious" that they gave him to me for free, with free delivery! But he is a great beginner's TRAIL riding horse!

And Bandit? We'll get there. If we don't die first. BTW - a couple times today, I had to raise my leg level with his back to keep it from going into cactus. Then I realized that if he hit the cactus passing 2 inches from his side, while I had one leg raised level with his back, things would go bad. So I started working harder at getting him to keep more room from the cactus, regardless of the footing. Part of teaching him to be a good trail horse. It is not something born in him, although the potential is there.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I like this discussion a lot. Very interesting (finally had to go back to "classic" so I could "like" things).

I too get annoyed by people who say being confident or calm will create a calm horse. Being a confident rider is a good thing and I ride that way habitually. But it is rarely a problem solving solution. Timing, knowing the horse, understanding the horse's motivations, seeing how something looks from the horse's perspective, those are problem solving solutions. 

A couple years ago I was on my mare and she was feeling hot and rambunctious. She was well under control, but releasing energy by moving with a lot of animation when we walked and trotted. The woman I rode with gave me a long lecture about how if I could just relax and be calm, my horse would mellow out. The next ride we went on together just happened to be after I'd done several demanding rides in a row, and it was a hot day. My mare was now quite relaxed and calm, and the woman praised me for straightening out my nerves. After riding this horse for hundreds of miles, galloping over rough country and over all kinds of obstacles, sliding down steep hills and running into herds of elk, I could not muster up a twinge of anxiety at the walk if I hung myself upside down from the saddle. 

Every rider gets nervous at times. In the past few years I've had some occasions for nerves. Once when I bought some cheap stirrup leathers and the buckle broke when I was galloping, another time when I put a bridle on a friend's horse who is a strong, hot horse and the cheekpiece holding the bit broke. We had no other bridle along, I lost my nerve, but she tied it with a piece of baling twine and galloped him anyway. I rode a different horse. 

When my mare lost her mind and bolted full out like a runaway train, she did not feel like she was balancing well and my saddle felt like it was slipping. When I got on a big Thoroughbred and he reared straight up suddenly, totally out of character. In these cases, the adrenaline you feel does nothing to affect the horse.

I've seen all sides of this. I've seen a rider whose horse spooked in one corner of an arena, and each time as she rode by she'd stare at the corner and tense up, and then the horse would look harder and spook again. SHE could have helped that problem. I've learned that getting on any horse and riding with a strong and confident seat will help many horses go out courageously. I've seen how a friend of mine gets on almost any horse and they immediately go to the front of the group, her will being strong and the horse feeling that together they ought to lead the other horses.

Of course if a rider tenses their muscles and grips strongly or sits stiffly, it will cue the horse. Of course if they hold their breath or breathe erratically, the horse hears that and understands it means fear or tension. But many riders have learned how to bluff horses whether they feel anxious or not, and to breathe normally and keep their muscles relaxed. They know to avoid looking at objects that concern the horses, as if they don't exist. These riders will not affect the horses regardless of whether they feel nervous. And a spooky, fearful horse or a very dominant one will not change appreciably even with the most confident rider.

You can be out with several horses and two will spook at something and one will just stand there. That horse isn't even affected by the herd spooking, so is an independent thinker and is unlikely to be affected by a nervous or confident rider either.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Avna said:


> I was requested to start this thread, because (I'm guessing) of the blurriness of this definition.
> 
> My understanding is that some people will call a horse a trail horse when it will walk steadily behind another horse on a trail.
> 
> ...


I'm late to the conversation and it has evolved since the first page so excuse my interruption. 

I think the definition of a trail horse may vary with regions and the type of people who inhabit them. Please don't take anything I say as derogatory towards trail riders. 

When I read a "for sale" ad for a horse, around here specifically, and it claims good trail horse or would make a good trail horse it usually means one or a combination of the following:

A.) The horse was used on a ranch at some point, didn't have the heart to pull the big circles. May be dull and dumb or was used a little too hard, had his plug pulled and no longer has the heart to do so. 

B.) A horse that wasn't talented enough for the show ring but gentle and decently to well trained.

C.) A horse that may have been blown up in the arena.

In my experience it seems "trail horse" is the advertising out for horses that could not make a go in the arena or on a ranch, usually injected into miners who have recently moved here, bought a couple of acres and decided they needed a horse.
I know that seems to short change real and good trail horses but it is the way it is here. 

In all honesty I have never rode a horse that couldn't be ridden outside. It might not be fun and it might take work but they go outside. So a good trail horse, maybe not. But I've never got the folks who claimed their horses couldn't be riden outside.
It goes both ways too, taking horses that have never seen a patch of asphalt, never been to town can be challenging as well. Some take to it better than others, sometimes it's not fun but you can get it done.
Someone who mentioned horses that have been ridden only in an arena/show situation have not learned to handle situations on a trail. I've found it easier to take town horses outside than outside horses to town. If you give that town horse a job like focusing on chasing a cow down a brushy draw you'd be surprised how fast they take to it. I think the key to it is focusing the mind whether it be a cow, navigating rocks and brush rather than aimlessly wandering letting the horse think on its own. That comes later.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have been riding on a regular basis for 47 years. I have had training in dressage, jumping, western, and a whole lot of trail miles. 

For all those people that say that all you need is to be a confident rider; I would like you to take my "Psycho Princess", my avatar horse and a halter bred Arabian, for a little spin........


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

This thread has taken an interesting turn, so I'll chime in again.

I am a very confident rider and will willingly climb onto a rank horse for the fun of it. I don't have whatever it is that *Avna *has that causes horses to calm, although I, too, often laugh at a spook. I'm just not afraid. But fearlessness, calmness, confidence sometimes aren't enough.

Example: I rode Cally today. She is a supremely bombproof horse, and in a group, I wouldn't hesitate to let a slightly nervous, somewhat capable rider take her out. But never, ever would I let anyone that wasn't highly skilled take her out alone. Don't get me wrong, she's great alone most of the time... except when she isn't.

Cally had been here alone for over a year. I could hop on her and ride and ride with no problems unless we rode by other horses. Then she'd get fractious. I understand she's a herd animal and needs other horses, and I try to give her some socialization, but I know when we have to leave, she'll be paying attention to... Not Me. 

In February, I brought Tango home. He's NEVER been alone. So, today when I rode Cally out, as soon as we were out of sight, he started calling and She Wanted To Go Back. We argued. She spun. I made her spin more. She bucked. I made her go away from home. She balked. I made her spin again. Finally, she was paying attention to me, but also I could tell she was waiting for me to relax my vigilance so she could take the lead. Normally, I ride her with a very loose rein. Today, I had to keep contact with her (she was in a bosal) to let her know I wouldn't put up with any willfulness. 

Basically what all this says, is that each horse has its own personality, and even the most skilled and confident rider can be challenged by a normally calm and confident horse. You have to understand both the horse and the circumstance.

Cally's antics today, while bothersome, were nothing I couldn't ride through. But that's because I have the Experience. Lots of horses and lots of miles. A less Experience rider may have come off or at least be badly shaken.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just confidence and fearlessness alone doesn't make a horse. It helps you get by one but it doesn't MAKE one.
What does work is knowledge and the confidence to use it and stick with it then also to know when to step back and try something else.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I think when folks tell you to be calm and confident in riding or handling your horse they are not saying that if you are your horse will never act up but instead if you are calm and confident in your ability to see a horse through whatever fit it's having over time it will help train the horse to not have such a bad reaction and/or lessen the time it takes for the horse to calm back down. I'm pretty calm & confident in the handling of horses and that certainly doesn't mean that my horses don't have an occasional brain fart but it's sure easier to get them to calm down than if I got all bent out of shape and escalated the tension.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, I was told a number of times that if I would be calm, Mia would be calm. That _*I*_ was what made her nervous. Never figured out how she could get herself lathered up standing in a corral, without me there to make her nervous...

But the truth is in between. There are certainly riders whose fear results in the horse getting scared. And Bandit is not as honest as Mia. If Mia was scared, she was diarrhea-squirting scared! Bandit? He sometimes looks for an excuse to get scared, like a teen going to a scary movie. 

Sometimes when he is scared? He isn't. And I'm still learning to tell the difference. If he was my first horse, he'd have my number for certain. He has it sometimes, regardless. And discerning that difference is why some folks can ride a horse confidently and effectively, while another cannot. It isn't something one can learn from DVDs, or even from my much loved books...although both can at least warn you of the possibility. But then, I doubt a riding instructor can teach you how to recognize it. You could ride a lot of laps around an arena without learning how to recognize the difference between a genuinely scared horse and one who is faking it, let alone how to deal with each. Some things only come with experience, which is a huge bummer for those of us who start riding on the far side of 50!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Typed up a long, drawn out comment on the rider aspect. But the site timed out on me and I lost it. So, I'll just say that confidence without skill or experience is empty bravado. If you live through the experience, you can say that it worked.

One thing I notice is that the adult beginners and "re-riders". Mostly seem to have the sense to take lessons and/or hire a trainer. That makes many of them more technically knowledgeable than me with decades in the saddle and no lessons. 

I'll be back later with thoughts on Cowchicks post on regional expectations.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Well this has turned out to be a interesting read! I think that the best trail horse is the one that works for the individual rider. According to some of the items here, my horse would fail. But for me, I could not ask for a better horse. I am so lucky to have such a great horse, and I appreciate it every day.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

^^^ this!


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