# Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?



## LynnF

I agree totally. Some of these guys have valid ideas and methods that actually work but you have to dig through a lot of nonsense to find them! I don't disagree with natural horsemanship, I just disagree with how commercialized and full of gimmicks it has become.


----------



## smrobs

:clap: Well said, both of you.


----------



## bsms

1 - In the past, almost everyone had grown up around horses and knew how to read their body language. When you lived daily with streets full of horses, their behavior was just part of your world. 

For many of us, horses are foreign. I didn't grow up on a ranch surrounded by horses, so I appreciate trainers who help me understand how horses think and react.

After 3 years of living with horses, I'm getting a lot better - but when I started, the videos then on StateLineTack were invaluable to me. And the one set of DVDs from John Lyon helped me too.

2 - Carrot sticks & cowboys. I don't care if folks sell stuff, but I've never bought anything but a DVD from any NH trainer. I have hired a woman trained in the John Lyons system, and she got excellent results with our small Arabian mare (never ridden before) and our gelding (fearful after some idiot COWBOY spurred the hell out of him, leaving 2-3 inch holes in his flesh on each side). Same cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a hole in his flesh on his withers, too!

In fact, our farrier - who regularly works with ranch horses - is certain they roped and threw our gelding to do his feet. With time and training, he now holds his feet in sequence for the farrier.

It has taken a lot of time to get his trust in humans back. When we first got him, when he saw a person with a cowboy hat & lariat, he blew thru the metal panels of a round pen in panic. Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them.

Teddy Roosevelt wrote about training horses, either quick or good. I prefer good. And training a horse to accept walking into a trailer beats the snot out of using a come-along every time.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Thanks ladies! I'm really surprised nobody has jumped on me with both feet over this subject yet


----------



## tinyliny

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Thanks ladies! I'm really surprised nobody has jumped on me with both feet over this subject yet


 
You no doubt speak too soon. Did you make this post with that in mind? For late night entertainment? There will be others who will rise to the occasion.

As for me, I agree with bsm that there has been some great benefit gained overall with the blossoming of this philosophy. It isn't a new concept, but those NH practicioners who made it available to the average person have made a contribution to improving horse/human relations overall. Yes, there are some pretty ridiculous commercial aspects and the special wording and such is fodder for ridicule. I think that it's a developing trend, and it hasnt' reached it's natural apex, wherein it comes back to commonsense horsemanship with a basis in empathy for the other living creature we call a horse.


----------



## christopher

i agree with all but



AmazinCaucasian said:


> I don't care who's gentler, let's see results!


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

bsms said:


> 1 - In the past, almost everyone had grown up around horses and knew how to read their body language. When you lived daily with streets full of horses, their behavior was just part of your world.
> 
> For many of us, horses are foreign. I didn't grow up on a ranch surrounded by horses, so I appreciate trainers who help me understand how horses think and react.
> 
> After 3 years of living with horses, I'm getting a lot better - but when I started, the videos then on StateLineTack were invaluable to me. And the one set of DVDs from John Lyon helped me too.
> 
> 2 - Carrot sticks & cowboys. I don't care if folks sell stuff, but I've never bought anything but a DVD from any NH trainer. I have hired a woman trained in the John Lyons system, and she got excellent results with our small Arabian mare (never ridden before) and our gelding (fearful after some idiot COWBOY spurred the hell out of him, leaving 2-3 inch holes in his flesh on each side). Same cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a hole in his flesh on his withers, too!
> 
> In fact, our farrier - who regularly works with ranch horses - is certain they roped and threw our gelding to do his feet. With time and training, he now holds his feet in sequence for the farrier.
> 
> It has taken a lot of time to get his trust in humans back. When we first got him, when he saw a person with a cowboy hat & lariat, he blew thru the metal panels of a round pen in panic. Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them.
> 
> Teddy Roosevelt wrote about training horses, either quick or good. I prefer good. And training a horse to accept walking into a trailer beats the snot out of using a come-along every time.


Oh boy I think our definitions of cowboys are different. See, when I say cowboy I'm not talking about a coca cola cowboy, coffee shop cowboy, urban cowboy, or even a rodeo cowboy. I'm referring to a man who gets up in the morning and throws a leg over a good horse,(not one he's riding for the neighbors) and makes his living horseback tending to cows. On a ranch or in a feedlot. Just because this guy had a hat on and carried a rope doesn't mean he's a cowboy. But thanks for dragging the word a little further in the dirt


----------



## AlexS

Both feet will jump in soon. 

Shocking news, I work my horse in the round pen purely to work him, this in itself gains his trust. I don't need him to lick or chew to do this. He trusts me on his own, without that.

Cowboys, I doubt there are very many who follow NH, and I am sure many do well without it.


----------



## Oxer

i'm subscribing here.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

tinyliny said:


> You no doubt speak too soon. Did you make this post with that in mind? For late night entertainment? There will be others who will rise to the occasion.
> 
> Yes I wanted to get people talking about this and see if even some of the NH people felt the same. Plus I'm bored and trying to get enough posts to get in the mysterious "chat room" they won't let me in yet


----------



## waresbear

I never really paid much attention to the NH bandwagon, until I started reading threads on here. So I read everything I could find, very controversial. Seems to me, these methods are helping more people than they are harming, most of it is commonsense horse handling with their personal spins on it. They are not scammers, there is no scam, but there is some slicky dicky marketing. Hey, we live in a capitalist nation, it's allowed, totally up to the consumer what they choose to spend their money on. Pat Parelli is an excellent horseman from what I gathered, and he capitalized on it, good on him.


----------



## AlexS

I believe it does or can harm. You desensitize a horse too much, and they will not lunge, will not move forward. To each their own, but I would not buy an NH horse.


----------



## ScharmLily

Without writing a novel, I would have to disagree with those who think NH is harmful to people and horses.

My basic idea is that it is the "concept" that we should train using methods that are kind, fair, and make sense that is important. I think that there is much too much of the "old school" type trainers telling clients to do something just because it has always been done that way. Expecting people to blindly follow techniques that have no common sense is a lot worse, and certainly more detrimental to the horse, than most natural horsemanship out there. From this you get people who have been in the horse world for 20 years and still don't know how to do anything without their "trainer" at their side. Yes, there are marketing scams in the NH world, but I think that they are far more prevalent in the actual world of horse "training" barns.

I do not agree with every NH trainer out there, but overall I find the concept to be much less offensive than much of what I see every day.


----------



## Susan Crumrine

I agree that the ideas are good, it is good that there is knowledge available for people who otherwise may not seek help with their horse.
I see where there is a fortune being made, and I am sure most people realize you dont need "specific tools" to use the methods. (At least I hope).
I still say you learn by doing, the more horses you work with, the better you become. Nothing can replace time spent with the horses themselves. Susan


----------



## bsms

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Oh boy I think our definitions of cowboys are different. See, when I say cowboy I'm not talking about a coca cola cowboy, coffee shop cowboy, urban cowboy, or even a rodeo cowboy...But thanks for dragging the word a little further in the dirt


It was a working ranch in Colorado. They borrowed him for 4 months from my friend's ranch in Utah, and used him for cutting cattle. It was NOT a coffee shop, Coca-cola stand, city nor rodeo. It was a working ranch, with working cowboys - some of whom shouldn't be allowed near a horse, let alone on one. As I said in my previous post: "Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them." I grew up in Arizona and Utah, and have known too many real cowboys to unthinkingly admire their horsemanship skills. Some are great - my first rides were visiting ranches - but some stink. If I thought all were bad, I wouldn't have agreed to buy the gelding in the first place.

You might try asking for more information before you attack another post. At my friend's ranch, the gelding was known for trying hard to do whatever you wanted him to do. When he arrived back from Colorado, my friend offered to cancel the deal - but we took him. With time, he has become a fine horse again. Time, and training from a NH trainer trained by Lyons.

Not all cowboys are idiots, and not all NH trainers are. But you can find idiots and jerks among both...


----------



## Wancata

The gimmick-y NH of trainers like Parelli and Clinton Anderson, ect, I think, is just a way to dumbie proof things for people. And you can't really argue with that. 

Before the recession, the number of equine households was on the rise. I remember many years ago reading an article that there was actually a push to raise interest in Equine activities in American homes. Don't know about other areas of the world, but the intent was to raise it by 2%. I am sure that has been reached, if not by more. Granted, now-a-days, you might go on vacation and come home to a new horse on your pasture. Its a sad reality, but I digress....

These little gimmicks (DVDs, Carrot sticks, Handy sticks, giant red Parreli balls, ect) just give the newbies out there a path to follow, because lets face it, everyone wants to be a trainer. I had to chuckle a little bit when I really thought about it, NH gimmicks kind of remind me of Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers was designed for people who cant (or wont) count calories or watch their portion sizes. Its a dumbie proof calorie counting systems with little books and calculators and point systems. Instead of saying you can eat 1500 calories a day, you get 25 points. And people LOVE this stuff! People buy the books and calculators and brand named foods with the points already tallied for them. Its crazy!

However, I lost 55lbs on weight watchers so I must say sometimes the gimmick works. I pretty much trained my horse myself and I don't own a "carrot stick" and I don't watch "Downunder Horsemanship" telecasts. I just use regular old common sense. But for some people, they like the contructed set up. Which is why people see results in things like weight watchers. There really isn't anything wrong with the system. I just comes down to if you want to do it your way, or theirs. They both can work if done correctly.

I feel I got off topic there. But I find this thread intriguing. I think I will subscribe!!


----------



## natisha

ScharmLily said:


> . Yes, there are marketing scams in the NH world, but I think that they are far more prevalent in the actual world of horse "training" barns.
> 
> I do not agree with every NH trainer out there, but overall I find the concept to be much less offensive than much of what I see every day.


These two sentences sum it up for me. I am most familiar with Saddlebred training barns where the horse owners are only allowed to ride during a lesson, where they are told what to do but not why. They show up, get on their already tacked up horse, ride then leave. 
They do this for years on end, always 'trading up horses' when the current one burns out, though they are told they have advanced past the horse's ability.
I board a few ex-show horses & the owners had no idea how to do simple things on their own. Those that want to learn are greatly helped with some NH techniques, so are the horses. Really it's just common sense techniques but I'm OK with the NH label for discussion.
Anything that gets a person working with their own horse is fine with me, no matter what it's called.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

smrobs said:


> :clap: Well said, both of you.


Yepper!


There are bad sides to all aspects of the horse training world. For sure.

The biggest problem with the whole NH movement is it is marketed at people who truly do not know any better.


----------



## Wancata

Alwaysbehind said:


> The biggest problem with the whole NH movement is it is marketed at people who truly do not know any better.


I agree with this. I do have to say though, for the amount of owners out there that say they can't afford a trainer right now, or don't have access to one for whatever reason and are still new to the horse world, I would feel safer sharing a ring with someone who was watching Paralli DVDs than not utilizing training at all.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

I would not.

The people watching the PP DVDs will quickly "learn" that they are the worlds best horse trainer ever and they know far more than any person who does not follow the system presented on by the all knowing man with the big mustache. 

People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.


----------



## Wancata

Alwaysbehind said:


> People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.


LOL, I cannot argue with this.


----------



## Doe

Frankly I don't see the difference. It fascinates me that people separate NH, both those that do it and those that don't. 

At the end of the day, whether it be some NH named brand or more traditional training methods, they are the same.

95% of training going on around the world with horses is trying to establish control of components - head, neck, shoulders, ribcage and hind and doing it using negative reinforcement techniques. (ie do it or else)

Whether you use a carrot stick, no stick, rope, wear a cowboy hat or a hardhat makes no difference.

If people got passed that on both sides then we could actually focus on what makes a difference, and on progression of skill, instead of the same junk recycled over and over.

As for dumbing down, sorry but I blame the US. Guys i have list of American friends so no offence intended (they largely agree tbh) and I would love to live there, but as a culture everything keeps being dumbed down. Here in the Uk we are following like sheep as usual. I blame the media, but nothing lasts more than 30 seconds, takes any attention, focus or commitment, and everything is disposable. 

The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream! :twisted:


----------



## thesilverspear

I moved from a place where NH methods and philosophy were commonplace -- almost everyone utilized at least some elements of them to work with their horses -- to one where they are virtually non-existent. 

Guess where the horses were, overall, better behaved on the ground, nicer to ride, and people were less likely to resort to things like martingales and draw reins to solve problems?


----------



## Wancata

Doe said:


> The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream! :twisted:


This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure). 

Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day. :shock:

I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.


----------



## Doe

Silver

I had a similar experience. I think thats because such systems help the human more than the horse (indirectly helping the horse therefore). They do this by providing set cues and instructions to carry them out. This creates more consistency from the human. Consistency until you become so refined that you can literally create 'whisper sentences and read the response' rather than just shouting 1 syllable words is very important to the horse.

Most people without such a system react based on their mood at the time, and are not consistent. I see people shouting back, then get back, then shift, then move!, etc etc, all asking for the same thing. The horse can't understand the crap coming out of their mouths and has to try to read the frantic body language and intent. If the human is stressed, so will be the horse.


----------



## Doe

Wancata said:


> This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.
> 
> This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).
> 
> Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day. :shock:
> 
> I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.


Lets have a whip round and send them a case of Omeprazole.......they're going to need it :shock:


----------



## thesilverspear

Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

thesilverspear said:


> Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.


Yes, true!

The problem with so many of the Kool-aid crowd is that they are taught from their DVDs that these DVDs and what they teach is all they need for any horse. That means most in the drinking crowd are not willing to look outside the box (of DVDs) for other ideas when Dobbin is not thriving on the run in circles technique.


----------



## thesilverspear

Yep. But my point is that for the sort of horse owner you're describing, if it wasn't NH DVDs, it would be something else. "I'm cranking his face in with my chambone draw reins combo and he's still trying to kill me. Maybe I need a standing martingale as well."


----------



## Alwaysbehind

thesilverspear said:


> Yep. But my point is that for the sort of horse owner you're describing, if it wasn't NH DVDs, it would be something else. "I'm cranking his face in with my chambone draw reins combo and he's still trying to kill me. Maybe I need a standing martingale as well."


That has not been my experience.

Non-Kool-aid drinkers do not tend to be so wrapped up in one system that they are closed to the idea of input from the outsider.


----------



## thesilverspear

It's definitely been mine.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I'm not opposed to NH as a whole. In fact, I use some of the elements with Aires (our personal favorite is the "What's this?" game that our friend taught us who uses CA's methods). HOWEVER, I personally don't think it is for every horse. The gelding I used to have was "trained" by some of those "Kool-aid crowders" who watched the Parelli DVD and then thought they were all-knowing. 

Dakota is 3/4 arab and 1/4 saddlebred and will take advantage anywhere he can. He was fat, lazy, spooky, and a downright pill when he was sent to my friend for "re-training" because his owners couldn't handle him. He was lazy because, according to his owners and what they "learned" from PP, if he acted spooky or afraid of something while under saddle, they got off him and put him away so it wouldn't cause him to be afraid of whatever it was. So, he learned VERY quickly that he could just act like he was spooked and it got him out of work. Same thing on the ground. He would spook at his own shadow if he thought it would get him out of doing something he didn't want to do. It took literally DAYS of a stronger hand forcing him to confront the things he was "afraid" of before he became even remotely sane in-hand. It took further days of forcing him to stand tied on the wash rack before he stopped dancing around because his old owners used to put him away if he acted antsy (because, again according to them, PP said to). It took WEEKS of daily work to teach him how to lunge (because, according to his owners, PP says not to lunge) to get him to where he was rideable again. When my friend did ride him, he pulled his head so far into his chest that his chin was literally touching his chest. Why? Because these people who swore by PP rode him in a martingale that was adjusted to keep his head that close in. 

However, the spooking and all that weren't his real issue. His real issue was the fact that their trainer (who was a self-taught PP disciple) would not correct the tack problems, but kept stepping up the harsh aids in order to get Dakota to behave. They started him over 24" fences as a 3yo because their "trainer" said it was okay. Dakota loved to jump until it started to hurt. As a 5yo, he started having arthritic changes in his hocks and refused to jump because it hurt so bad. So, they switched him to Western pleasure (he is SO not a WP horse!). Their saddle was too small and pinched Dakota's shoulders, so he let them know he didn't like it by becoming difficult to handle. The "trainer" put him in a twisted wire snaffle straight away. She didn't even TRY to figure out what the underlying issue might be. That ticked him off even more, so the "trainer" had them riding him in spurs (rowled Western spurs). That made it even worse, so they tied his head down to his chest. However, after a few months of working with him, a saddle that actually fit him pretty decently (never met a horse so hard to fit a saddle on!), and calm, consistent training, I was riding Dakota in a french-link snaffle with absolutely no training aids. He was calm (bordering on half-asleep lol) and responsive. Never tried to balk, spook or run off with me (like he did his old owners). Yes, I had to shank him quite a few times to get him to listen and stop being an idiot. Yes, he got fisted in the ribs when he tried to dance over the top of me while I was wrapping his legs before a workout (apparently any sort of "violence" is strictly abhorred by the NH crowd?). But, that's what it took for this 900lbs horse to realize that 170lbs me was in charge and that his stupid BS wouldn't fly. No amount of wiggling the lead rope to make him back up or any of that stuff was going to stop him climbing up my shoulder when he thought he saw something that *might* spook him.

We have a lady at the stable where we board that did Parelli with her arab gelding. When I mentioned that I had to shank Dakota, she nearly blew a gasket. She spent a good thirty minutes lecturing me (without me able to get a word in edgewise) about the evils of shanking and violence against horses in general. She said just wiggling the lead rope at him would have been enough. As soon as her steam ran out, I informed her that Dakota had initially been trained using PP's methods and that was what caused me to have to use such a stern hand with him. Her gelding got out the other day (she lives 2 hours away) and it took FOUR people a good thirty minutes just to catch him in a stall he'd wandered into because of the Parelli games she uses (the "Catch me" game or something like that?). When I brought that up, she had no response other than "You didn't play the game right." I'm sorry, but I shouldn't have to play a game (that I have no clue about) with another person's horse in order to catch it. None of the other horses (that were trained with more traditional methods) are difficult to catch in the turnout, but her gelding is nearly impossible. Just sayin'...

As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
“A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”

I think that this is the case with NH. It makes every armchair cowboy think that they're a trainer, when all they end up doing is ruining a good horse (as in the case of my Dakota).


----------



## bsms

The only training videos I own are by John Lyons. I have a number of books on riding/training, and most of them involving working with the way a horse thinks, rather than contrary to it.

I fail to see any harm in that. I've met cowboys who thought spurs were used to punish, and cowboys who used spurs to get outstanding performance from a willing horse. I've seen ranch hands (and non-ranch folks) use come-alongs to force a horse in a trailer, and others who taught their horses to load.

Frankly, anyone who uses the "I'll beat the hell out of you" method of training a horse is not a horseman at all.

Teaching newbies like myself how to read a horse's body language is NOT harmful in any way. 

I don't know any Pat Parelli games, and I don't have a TV so I don't watch Clinton Anderson. I will say that John Lyon's approach, used by a trainer we hired and, to the extent I can, used by me when I work with our horses, has been very effective with 2 horses, and is working (slowly) with my third. The two horses trained using those principles were a 6 year old unbroke Arabian, and an Appy/Arabian cross who had been abused by cowboys on a working ranch, and who has the scars to prove it. The third is my very stubborn, dominant and fearful mare...I suppose I could shoot her, but I'd rather try to teach her instead. Forgive me!

Natural Horsemanship doesn't involve blowing unicorn snot into your horse's mouth. It does involve correcting the horse in a way the horse is capable of understanding, without just beating the tar out of the horse.

Yes, I've hired a professional trainer to help us - but she is here once each week. I'm here all the time, and training my horses for good or evil every time I'm around them. Running a horse ragged in circles every time you ride him is NOT NH. Accepting bad behavior is NOT NH. Buying a DVD & some overpriced gimmick is NOT NH. And spurring your horse bloody in anger is NOT being a good cowboy.

There are idiots everywhere, including ranches and NH clinics. I've also been given excellent advice from both cowboys and NH trainers. The trick in life is learning to recognize BS, regardless of who slings it.


----------



## coffeegod

Monty Roberts' method has allowed me to gain more control over Hugo. I tried others, Monty works for us.

I think the biggest problem with NH is the layman thinks/believes that reading a book or watching a DVD equals a bypass to massive amounts of time and hard work. Yeah, Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson may be able to quickly turn bad behavior around but these guys have been doing this for YEARS.

Cesar Millan frequently states that although he can 'work miracles' on dogs in minutes it comes from years of practice. His method works for me and mine. I have three rescue dogs who have benefited greatly from it. I've studied and practiced and made mistakes but I kept at it. Heck, I even used the techniques on my son. Tssst brings my household to a standstill. I have become calmer and a much better leader as well. I consider the seven years it took to get here to be time well spent.

The fact is, no yahoo will ever be able to watch a DVD, go to one workshop or read a book and become a 'Horse Whisperer'. Nice fairy tale but not reality. It takes much time and hard work to become a good trainer.


----------



## kitten_Val

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I have a problem with Natural Horsemanship. Every time I click on a youtube video that looks cool, but turns out to be a NH follower, I want to vomit. Somebody's crouched down with their "ears laid back" trying to imitate Pat Parelli or trying to join up like Monte Roberts. Looks so silly.


I have to say that's a harsh statement. Most people will never be Clinton Anderson, or Monty Roberts, or John Lyons and realize that, however I do NOT see why they can't practice their methods and why they can't take videos and share them. I take video of my rides all the time (to see what I do wrong and what to improve). Sometime I do share (mostly shows), and I'd be appalled to hear someone says they want to vomit looking at my video. If you want to vomit - don't watch! 

Now... I don't practice NH. As well as I don't like working on ground unless there is a real need (I prefer to get on and work). However while back when I just started my horses (having very limited experience) I found "Respect on ground" by CA to be very helpful to address problems I was having with my qh. It was easy, straightforward, and had lots of common sense in it. And I do use a stick (bought at the Expo for $8) for trailer loading and sometime ground work when I bring them up after the winter break, because I like it more than whips for use on ground. 

There are people out there who believe in NH and do it. They are happy with it, and it works for them. Many don't go for $40 carrot sticks or $30 halters. And I don't understand why such people don't deserve a respect from those of us, who don't practice HN. :?


----------



## rlcarnes

As a Former Parelli student I totally agree with you. I was 16 and I saw the awesome things that they were doing on their horses. Jumping over picnic tables bare back- it was breath taking. Fast Forward a few years and my now husband and I are at a horse show and my horse is getting a little worked up. I began to lunge him and asked for a stop- And then I hear roars of laughter from my husband. He is crying he is laughing so hard and he asked my why I had to bow and kiss my horses *** to get him to stop. After re- watching the DVD's I was appalled at how horrible the training method is. My husband is currently re- training me with the Ken McNabb approach. My husband was an apprentice of his a few years ago and I cannot believe the difference in my horse with a "Cowboy" trainer. I agree with your definition of a Cowboy- Just because you wear a hat does not make you one. You have to earn it.


----------



## bsms

kitten_Val said:


> ...However while back when I just started my horses (having very limited experience) I found "Respect on ground" by CA to be very helpful to address problems I was having with my qh...


I've been working Mia from the ground for a while now. She gets afraid and then spins herself out of control. And unless she has learned how to have bad diarrhea at will, it is genuine fear - and I'm getting too old to want to deal with bolting all the time.

Most of the ground work I've done with her has been letting her spin up, then working her to calm her down. When I started, she could spin herself up for 20 minutes of out-of-control running. Now I can spin her up, say "Easy", and she slows to a walk (about 80-90% as of yesterday).

I also used some of the same principles to teach her to stand quiet while tied. Her first lesson was painful - literally, since she fell at a gallop! (Glad I wasn't on her at the time!) But by the end of the session, she was standing quietly tied. I'm still working with her on it, but she is standing quiet on 12" of slack - this from a horse that broke a hitching post the first day I had her. My goal is to have her standing quietly at a post near the road with me not there - and I'm not there yet, but then, I need to bury a post there first...

That doesn't mean I plan to ground work her forever. But both the vet and farrier have commented on how much quieter and relaxed she is now, so it is working. I hope to start riding her again next week.

Maybe there are others who could have just beat her into submission, or maybe there is a NH trainer who could have done the job in a day. Don't know. I'm what she has...and I don't think I'm wrong to work with her instead of sending her to Mexico.


----------



## kitten_Val

bsms said:


> Maybe there are others who could have just beat her into submission, or maybe there is a NH trainer who could have done the job in a day. Don't know. I'm what she has...*and I don't think I'm wrong to work with her instead of sending her to Mexico.*


bsms, I was told several times to get rid of my horse(s). Which would be most probably straight on meat truck. Well... I just decided to go through frustrations I guess.  So far it was quite paid off when I started to show this year. So as long as you have a will and courage (and patience!) why not? 


BTW on side note, CA methods worked greatly for my qh and didn't work for my paint (who is completely different). So as with any method, it's not for every horse and you have to adapt good suggestions from everyone depending on horse, problem, and situation.


----------



## Wancata

DraftyAiresMum said:


> As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
> “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”
> 
> I think that this is the case with NH. It makes every armchair cowboy think that they're a trainer, when all they end up doing is ruining a good horse (as in the case of my Dakota).


I guess that was kind of my point using the term "Dumbie-proof." Now, I don't use any of the NH stuff myself, but, for the "armchair cowboy's" out there, I think that there is a chance they are going to ruin a good horse regardless. Even if they aren't buying a C.A. DVD, there is some unknowing horse owner out there surfing WikiHow.com to learn how to join up. 

You can't make an animal, with its own brain and thought process, "Dumbie-proof." They are animals and can be unpredictible. But I can see why PP, CA, and the others want to make a dime on the attempt. People will buy it, thats the sad part. It works for some, not for others, and these TV trainers are making money on it.


----------



## bsms

rlcarnes said:


> ... I agree with your definition of a Cowboy- Just because you wear a hat does not make you one. You have to earn it.


If the only real cowboys are those who are good with horses, then can we say the only real NH trainers are the ones who are good with horses?

NH is NOT about kissing your horse's butt. It IS about teaching your horse in a way that makes it easy for the horse to learn. How can anyone object to that?


----------



## kitten_Val

bsms said:


> NH is NOT about kissing your horse's butt. It IS about teaching your horse in a way that makes it easy for the horse to learn. How can anyone object to that?


I agree. Lets step off PP (who is usually brought up in ANY discussion as a main example) and talk about, say Stacy Westfall. Who is also a _*NH*_ trainer. I've met her in person as well as been on her demonstrations and have to say I have a big respect for her. So is she also someone to "vomit" on and "ripping off" kool-aiders?


----------



## rlcarnes

Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.


----------



## coffeegod

DraftyAiresMum said:


> As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
> “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”


Douglas Adams was an optimist.

'So long and thanks for all the fish!'


----------



## kitten_Val

rlcarnes said:


> Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.


Don't worry, rlcarnes. Some english disciplines are getting bashed too all the time. :wink: 

And yes, it's not about discipline, it's about BAD RIDERS and BAD TRAINERS. That's it.


----------



## coffeegod

Watching Stacy Westfall is on par with watching Margot Fonteyn dance or listening to Andres Segovia play. She is pure poetry in horsemanship.


----------



## sarahver

I also wonder where the common sense has gone but am hesitant to point the finger at any one person or group.

I think that it is in human nature to want to include, and to want to exclude. One is necessary by virtue of the other. We include those that have similar beliefs to us and exclude those that don't, thereby reaffirming our own beliefs by associating with other people who _share_ those beliefs.

It isn't just in the NH world. Look at religion, look at politics. It's basic human nature. 'We' are right and 'They' are wrong. As if right and wrong are so easily definable.

Same thing here. 

Stupid people: They're everywhere.


----------



## rlcarnes

kitten_Val said:


> Don't worry, rlcarnes. Some english disciplines are getting bashed too all the time. :wink:
> 
> And yes, it's not about discipline, it's about BAD RIDERS and BAD TRAINERS. That's it.


Ditto Bad Trainers and Riders- Can't we all just agree to do our own thing and be happy


----------



## Wancata

rlcarnes said:


> Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.


Im sorry rlcarnes, you are 100% correct. I have seen some english training that made me want to gag. 

I used the term as how I perceived it; as someone who reads a NH book and thinks they can break any wild horse out there. But there are as many "armchair jumpers" out there as cowboys.


----------



## rlcarnes

No prob! no hurt feelings- Just bad Trainers


----------



## waresbear

I take it, Monte Roberts is a NH guru as well? If he is, something is amiss. A gal here who was a tad squirrelly to begin with spent $25,000 to compete some sort of training course with his "program", sorry I don't know what the terminology is. She had her horses boarded at a friends' house and I was called over to visit and watch her load up her horses in her new expensive beautiful trailer (it was a beauty! aluminum slantload, top of the line). So my friend & I (gal disputed her board bill so she was moving to her new "ranch") watched from her kitchen window to see how these 2 horses were going to load in the trailer. My friend said she watched her practice loading about a dozen times & only one of them finally got in. Anyways to make a long story short, her hubby drove the empty trailer home, & she led one horse home & then the other. I offered to help loading her horses, offer was declined, but I sure didn't offer to walk an ruly unbroke 5 yr. old filly home 3 miles. This gal opened up a training facility at a wealthy immigrant's property and began advertising & training horses. I don't think she had many clients, most people want to actually ride their horse and have them load in the trailer every darn time. Anyways her business went out of business quickly. I don't know if this attests to the Monte Roberts' expensive training course or it was just her, but it was ineffective, period.


----------



## Courtney

Personally, I like the idea of natural horsemanship and I appreciate aspects of it. I don’t agree whole heartedly with the entire method and I don’t consider the trainers to be ‘gods’. I enjoy watching what they do and listening to what they have to say, and forming my own conclusions. I have a very good understanding of horses, their behavior and how to train them, but I enjoy seeing what others do and incorporating their methods into my own training style. For example, I would much rather spend a bunch of time building a solid relationship with a horse and moving along slowly than hopping into the saddle and hanging on for dear life because the horse didn’t expect me up there or wasn’t ready for me to be up there. I think there are many valuable lessons to be learned from Natural Horsemanship, but also, from the more traditional means of training. It’s up to us to decide what works best for our situation and the horse we’re working with, and customize a training plan to their specific needs. There is not a ‘one size fits all’ training method; in order to be successful, we have to borrow concepts from a bunch of trainers and customize them.


----------



## rlcarnes

I have been riding horse for about 13 years now and the only thing that I can be sure of is that Horse people are Crazy... One book makes you an expert and then open your business. My husband apprenticed with Ken McNabb in Wyoming for an very intensive three weeks and when he came home he still worked with his own horses before he took on clients. He is one of the best horsemen that I know. He can gain a horses trust so quickly. It doesn't matter how much money you pay. It is how much time you put into your talent that makes it successful or not.


----------



## ponyboy

waresbear said:


> They are not scammers, there is no scam, but there is some slicky dicky marketing. Hey, we live in a capitalist nation, it's allowed, totally up to the consumer what they choose to spend their money on. Pat Parelli is an excellent horseman from what I gathered, and he capitalized on it, good on him.


I agree. Shrinks sell self-help books and charge ridiculous prices for their services too but no one complains about that.

I don't think it's fair to lump all new-age trainers together either. Some of them are much less commercial and more down-to-earth than others.


----------



## Doe

rlcarnes said:


> Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.


Simply because the thread was aimed at the NH trainers. Of the generally 'known' brands they are all American and all dress like cowboys. The exception is CA who is an Aus but still dresses like a cowboy and now lives in the US.


----------



## bsms

rlcarnes said:


> Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.


I like ranchers. I've drifted from riding English to Western, and plan on selling my English saddles.

NH is not English or Western. It is using natural horse behavior to teach a horse. That includes discipline - I promise you, my mare Mia expects TOTAL obedience from underlings. As the NH trainer who I hired put it, "Have you *ever* seen Mia ask another horse to obey?" Not hardly...

But it also involves doing so in a way the horse can understand. If you use a come-along to get a horse in a trailer, you are not teaching him to load. You are just setting yourself up for future trouble. The guy who spurred my gelding did NOT create a good horse. Roping and throwing a horse for the farrier does NOT create a good horse.

Reading your horse, treating him as an individual, applying pressure that doesn't create fear and releasing it at the right time is NH, and I don't see how any of that is wrong. Those are principles that apply to western riding, dressage, reining, etc.

The only alternative to "natural horsemanship" is "artificial horsemanship"...


----------



## rlcarnes

What about Karen and David O'Connor- They are Parelli peeps too... Definitely not western by any means


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

There are things I like about most NH trainers and things I don't. A lot of what I don't has to do with spending too much time on the ground and not enough in the saddle. 

I have no problem with PP and his carrot stick, I have one and I use it. A horse 'runs into' a dressage whip a few times and becomes unimpressed with it or fearful. He runs into the heavier carrot stick a few times and say, "Hurt like HELL don't want to do that again.". As long as I'm firm fair and consistant, no problems. 

Have sent horses out for starting to NH guys and gotten the horse home as a head flipper because not enough time was spent on bitting properly. So, I break out the trusty draw reins and surcingle and off we go to the round pen where I let the horse teach himself to find relief from banging against the bit. Usually only takes a couple sessions and they teach themselves that flipping the nose equals a sore mouth and dropping the nose gets relief from the bit and the nonsense stops. I RARELY use a chambon, running martingale or over check reins, but with a slow learner they have their place. 

I ask nicely from my horses before I insist and then I demand. My 'energy level' goes up with each step of the correction. I don't lose my temper and I don't do things 'to get even' with the horse. 

Most of what I have learned was not from NH trainers but, lo and behold, it was the exact same thing as the NH trainers are teaching. I do actually like the PP Games as teaching aids. By breaking things waaaaaaay down, I can play with my foals and have 90% of their ground work done before they are old enough to saddle and ride. Makes saddling that 3 or 4 year old a piece of cake. The babies love it because each game is designed for their kind of attention span and teaches them to focus, very short times at first but longer and longer as they get older and can achieve more. 

So, like others, I learn from the good trainers out there NH or not, and try not to learn anything from the bad ones.


----------



## Doe

kitten_Val said:


> I agree. Lets step off PP (who is usually brought up in ANY discussion as a main example) and talk about, say Stacy Westfall. Who is also a _*NH*_ trainer. I've met her in person as well as been on her demonstrations and have to say I have a big respect for her. So is she also someone to "vomit" on and "ripping off" kool-aiders?


I'm not knocking Stacey (not my thread) but just for the record, She is in the exact same camp. There is nothing she does that is not the same basic model of NH as the others and she even sells DVDs on DIY how to start a young horse like the others. (which I've never considered ethical myself)


----------



## waresbear

Perfectly put Dreamcatcher!


----------



## Doe

The reactions to this thread are interesting because they highlight the very issues I was trying to address in my 'basis of all NH' thread recently.

The fact is that all the talk is of 'personalities' and what concerns me is how people fail to understand the basis of the training to sufficiently judge when something is the same as something else. People see PP, CA, Stacy, Monty etc as all doing different things or having separate skills when in actual fact there is no real difference between them. Only differences in presentation.

An example is when I posted the thread about KFH. People took one look at a clip and were unable to differentiate between that and Monty, or Parelli, or general round penning, or lunging etc. Yet is is very different.

Now let's say I were to bring in Nevzorov into the conversation or even say Spilker......my goodness there'd be forum meltdown.

If people just took more time to understand how and why something works they it does, then they can truly learn from it (good and bad) and adapt it as needed by the horse. It's the difference between having a photographic memory and learning a book, or actually understanding the equations within it.

The interesting thing is, if people actually did.........this forum would have no more threads.....................


----------



## kitten_Val

Doe said:


> I'm not knocking Stacey (not my thread) but just for the record, She is in the exact same camp. There is nothing she does that is not the same basic model of NH as the others and she even sells DVDs on DIY how to start a young horse like the others. (which I've never considered ethical myself)


Doe, noone saying she's the same or different. And I'm not saying she's better than say John Lyons. But I gave her as an example because she is very reasonable (that perfect common sense we were talking about), easy to understand, and her horses are well trained. I also have heard her saying that training horse for the beginner is not a way to go. As well as that those "magical" bond/rides brideless has over 1000 hours of hard work WITH the bridle before she started to work without one. 

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with "Starting a young horse" DVD or book. As long as its targeted on those with experience. You may have years of experience still never start a horse. I'd think such book/video would be very helpful with exercises etc. (even though I think it will NOT substitute the help of real trainer in any way).


----------



## kitten_Val

Doe said:


> Now let's say I were to bring in Nevzorov into the conversation....


Yeah, I don't like him. Mostly because he's preaching about one thing while have videos of totally opposite on net. Plus you can't give your opinion in his "chat" - you'll be kicked out right on spot.


----------



## bsms

Doe said:


> ...There is nothing she does that is not the same basic model of NH as the others and she even sells DVDs on DIY how to start a young horse like the others. (which I've never considered ethical myself)


Why is it unethical? No, someone cannot learn all there is to starting a young horse just by watching a video. However, a video CAN help them understand the process. When our unbroke mare was being trained, I watched a LOT of videos on StateLineTack, and it helped me a lot. A big part of what I learned was how much I didn't know...


----------



## Doe

> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with "Starting a young horse" DVD or book. As long as its targeted on those with experience


I don't disagree, but that's my issue, these videos are most definitely targeted at those without sufficient experience. If you did have the experience, you would already be aware of the very basic information in these DVDs, and instead they would be focussing on the more intricate and delicate details.


----------



## rlcarnes

I think that the main problem here is that for example- Ms. Suzy has only been around horses for a little while. she sees a horse she falls head over heels for but it is a green broke monster with no manners and bolts, rears etc. Not having common sense to look for a professional to help her with this task she goes to the local tack store and buys everything she can on colt starting- no problem right? Well now she sees how easy the trainers make it look and she begins to train now pony and gets her back broke because she didn't have common sense to ask for help. I think that this is what people are talking about when it is un-ethical to have DIY books. They are not always geared toward the experienced riders. And honestly many experienced trainers do not look to books they go to the source and get it straight from the horses mouth. Like I said before horse people are crazy and everyone knows everything about everything. If you haven't met someone like Ms. Suzy yet you will everyone knows some horse person like this.


----------



## Doe

kitten_Val said:


> Yeah, I don't like him. Mostly because he's preaching about one thing while have videos of totally opposite on net. Plus you can't give your opinion in his "chat" - you'll be kicked out right on spot.


I wouldn't expect him to be popular, the stance taken would naturally alienate 99% of the horse owning population simply because no horse riding is allowed.
However the videos argument is I'll founded. In fairness to him he has continued to develop his knowledge and as such like any of us, has progressed. Therefore many videos still on the net do not reflect the 'current' position.
Riding is the perfect example. He has not ridden in two years, yet you will still see all the videos of him doing exactly that. It was a progression, from riding normally, to expressing concern as to the damage and examining scientific data, to restricting riding to a purely collected state, maximum 15 minutes, to now, no riding at all.

I am not saying I am an advocate. However that does not stop me from seeking to understand what is being done, how and why.


----------



## coffeegod

rlcarnes said:


> I think that the main problem here is that for example- Ms. Suzy has only been around horses for a little while. she sees a horse she falls head over heels for but it is a green broke monster with no manners and bolts, rears etc. Not having common sense to look for a professional to help her with this task she goes to the local tack store and buys everything she can on colt starting- no problem right? Well now she sees how easy the trainers make it look and she begins to train now pony and gets her back broke because she didn't have common sense to ask for help. I think that this is what people are talking about when it is un-ethical to have DIY books. They are not always geared toward the experienced riders. And honestly many experienced trainers do not look to books they go to the source and get it straight from the horses mouth. Like I said before horse people are crazy and everyone knows everything about everything. If you haven't met someone like Ms. Suzy yet you will everyone knows some horse person like this.


Amen, my sister, amen.


----------



## tinyliny

If Ms. Suzy had not used the store bought dvd to train her monster, if it had not been available, what do you think she would have done?

A. do it herself, totally unaided with any knowledge

B. hire a trainer.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Or perhaps Ms Suzy would have been directed to a more suitable mount which is what any REPUTABLE person with a horse for sale SHOULD do. I refuse to sell green to green because I've seen it equal black & blue too often.


----------



## rlcarnes

True that she probably would have done it herself with no help but it is still not the best situation for her or her horse. I used to be a parelli follower (Im not slamming parelli he is just who I used) with my 22 year old QH gelding just because of respect issues. I saw them on TV and though oh wow! I can do that, well I couldn't and now i have a very clingy horse with worse manners than I started because I read some book and watched a movie about it. he is getting better though thanks to my new training from a professional though- My hubby. Either way Ms. Suzy should have said "you know what I have no clue how to do this" and then she could have gotten the help she needed.


----------



## rlcarnes

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Or perhaps Ms Suzy would have been directed to a more suitable mount which is what any REPUTABLE person with a horse for sale SHOULD do. I refuse to sell green to green because I've seen it equal black & blue too often.


Wonderfully put! Green + Green = black and blue!!!


----------



## waresbear

Kinda reminds of those home renovations dvds & tv programs. Average home owner thinks they can renovate a house because they watched the show & bought Mike Holmes book and then end up with house that needs to condemned! However, after seeing the results with the gal who spent 25 G's on getting some sort of certification from Monte Roberts, that really turned me off of that. Who would give her an endorsement certificate when she couldn't even load a horse after practicing upteen dozen times? I understand some peops are not cut out to be trainers but then don't give her a certificate & say she's good to go. Tell her she needs to spend another 25 G's before she have the certification LOL!


----------



## Doe

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Or perhaps Ms Suzy would have been directed to a more suitable mount which is what any REPUTABLE person with a horse for sale SHOULD do. I refuse to sell green to green because I've seen it equal black & blue too often.


If only everyone was as ethical. I know it might sound rude but unless you really know the seller always turn upto a barn at an unexpected time. If they are genuine they will understand. If not and they need to dope their horses or whatever, you will catch them out.


----------



## anndankev

Hello,

This (the bolded) is from a post I made a while back and is my way of dealing with the most likely to be valid assumption that I will ruin a horse because of my lack of experience and/or NH practices:




> I asked to work him online and she wanted to lunge him herself first to show that the video was not a good example of what she does. She did a lot of slapping the ground behind him with the whip while gripping the line about 5-6 feet from his nose, giving him no place to go. With no body language cues that I could see. He did move as best he could, when she got a little quieter with the whip he did walk a bit, or stop. I did not feel she had much gait or direction control , and did not get him out on a circle any bigger than 6 feet from herself. When she stopped I did tell her it was much better than the video, it was -- he had not challenged her. I guess she must have made him canter until he willingly walked again during the 30 seconds or so that it took for me to walk to my car and get my halter and line.
> 
> I advised her that I work with natural horsemanship methods, and do not even know how to properly "lunge". The cues I use are different, for example I put pressure on the hindquarters/flank area to ask for them to turn toward me and stop, rather than to go faster. *And I told her I have been told so many times that I will ruin a horse, that I mostly work with horses that have already been ruined so that I will not cause any great loss if I'm doing something wrong.*
> 
> He moved his hindquarters off finger pressure fairly well, much more resistance with the front feet, but after releasing pressure when I got a cross over step in front about 3 times I could see he would improve. I sent him out on a circle with driving pressure to the neck/shoulder area, he went out well increased gait to trot, so I stopped him and started again until he walked at full length of the line calmly about twice around, then turned him the other way and repeat, then turned him the other way and trotted, then the other way. He was moving well with some slack in the line as I like, not pulling out or trying to run off. I even passed the line behind me once or twice. When asking him to disengage and turn and stop at first he would try to go faster, I moved some towards him increasing pressure on his hip without pulling on his face and the first time actually had to touch him on the flank with the tip of the stick before he moved hip away and stopped. Release of pressure, stand a minute, lip licking. Much improvement over the course of the 15 minutes the entire session took. He was paying attention and willing to do what I asked.
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/help-he-out-control-67152/page11/#ixzz1RurZFIGp


 
Sincerely,

Ms. Suzy


----------



## Whisper22

As someone who is completely new to owning horses, I am extremely grateful that horsemanship has been broken down in a way that makes it simple for me to follow. I can understand how people who have grown up around horses and have been taught a different way of handling them might be annoyed at people coming in and completely changing what have been the preferred methods. Because now YOU don't know it all. I am open too any and all advice no matter what method it comes from, as long as it is safe for me to do having no experience. Not to mention NH trainers are extremely easy to find in my area. I don't know anything about the cowboy way, but my trainer prefers to work with both me and my horse, to make sure I can continue the lessons established for my horse. It is just ridiculous to label NH followers as people who wont listen to any other way. Both of my trainers are older and have been around horses heir entire lives, yet they both prefer NH.

This isn't any different than labeling certain disciplines as this or that. And we all know how well tolerated that is.


----------



## rlcarnes

You are lucky to have such open and willing trainers. many of the NH people are in the "its my way or the high way" mind set. you hit the nail on the head- you are only willing to do what you feel is safe for you and your horse. there are a lot of people out there that are willing to put everything that they have worked hare for at risk because of some new fandangled contraption that has come out- not just NH here but in all forms of riding.


----------



## Whisper22

Maybe I'm lucky, but I have yet to encounter a NH person that refuses to listen to any other way. I'm not saying they are not out there but they are not any different than the cowboys who don't think they need that NH bs. I'm just saying, labeling is ridiculous.


----------



## rlcarnes

Labeling the cowboys is ridiculous too. My husband is a cowboy and does not believe in NH but he has never beat a horse nor abused it. Cowboys aren't the only ones who don't think that they need the NH "BS". As I said before I know many English, Trail Riders, Gaited people, and Saddle Seat Riders that could use some schooling on the proper way to treat a horse. So, let's not use any labels and call it what it is. It is bad Trainers and bad riders not just "Cowboys"


----------



## tinyliny

I think the original poster had a bit of a beef with the fact that some of the big name NH trainers make money on their dvds and training appliances. I kind of feel similarly, in the sense that the marketing is rather irritatingly slick. But, they have to make a living and as many of you must agree, it's very hard to make a living in horses. It's not a crime to sell your skill, knowledge or talent. It's an open market and buyers can pass.

It is good that there are multiple voices out there reminding those with open minds that it isn't the color of or the name of your stick, it's the way it is wielded. Thus, those that feel satisfaction out of being well equiped with every piece provided in the training catelogue can be happy , while those that don't need them can be happy.


----------



## rlcarnes

But, they have to make a living and as many of you must agree, it's very hard to make a living in horses. It's not a crime to sell your skill, knowledge or talent. It's an open market and buyers can pass.

It is good that there are multiple voices out there reminding those with open minds that it isn't the color of or the name of your stick, it's the way it is wielded. Thus, those that feel satisfaction out of being well equiped with every piece provided in the training catelogue can be happy , while those that don't need them can be happy.[/QUOTE]

Well put no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and if people want to or not it is up to them!


----------



## Whisper22

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not the methods, but how they are abused. But NH is a great method for those that have very little experience and even for those that have a lot of experience.


----------



## Whisper22

I say good for them, if they can make a living out of it. You don't have to buy their products if you don't believe in them, but obviously someone does.


----------



## thesilverspear

The problem with these threads (and the reason I lose interest in them fairly quickly) is that they all seem to end up with these exchanges where people who can't resist the opportunity for a good rant (really, who can?) compare their anecdotes: 

Post 1: I worked with a horse who was trained with X and it was the most badly behaved horse I've ever had.
Post 2: My trainer uses X and it's been fantastic. It's really helped me and my horse.
Post 3: I've had horses for 30 years and think X is just pointless when you apply common sense to your horses. 

Problems are not inherent to X (unless X is in fact beating your horse senseless), but rather how people handle their horses and how well they understand them. That is more important than whether they use training system X or Y. Horses are very sensitive, as we all know, and owners A and B can both be using, or saying they are using, X, but A has very good timing, feel, and a good idea of what X is supposed to be accomplishing, while B has terrible timing, no feel, and is just following the instructions but actually hasn't a clue.


----------



## outnabout

sarahver said:


> I also wonder where the common sense has gone but am hesitant to point the finger at any one person or group.
> 
> I think that it is in human nature to want to include, and to want to exclude. One is necessary by virtue of the other. We include those that have similar beliefs to us and exclude those that don't, thereby reaffirming our own beliefs by associating with other people who _share_ those beliefs.
> 
> It isn't just in the NH world. Look at religion, look at politics. It's basic human nature. 'We' are right and 'They' are wrong. As if right and wrong are so easily definable.


Yes, sarahver, my thoughts exactly. As newbie to riding (2 years) and ownership (6 months) you can imagine how confusing all of the different training techniques are to someone like me. My barn manager, excellent trainer, judging by the behavior of his horses, introduced himself to me as someone who "uses NH training before anybody ever called it that." When he first mentioned NH I immediately thought, uh oh... beware, but I do appreciate the way he works. Of course, I myself am not training horses...

An analogy: as a teacher we have the same situation in learning theories and teaching techniques. I've been around for a while and know that there are certain basic principles that are present in all methods, no matter what you call it. Some methods go to an extreme in one way or another, these are the ones that in the long run don't work. For example, do you think I am going to spend my money on a workshop titled "Teach like a rock star!"? Heck no, I know how to work effectively with kids without being a rock star. 

I have transfered what I know from dog training, and what I have learned from working with my horse to the classroom, though. Random thought: do you think I could get rich marketing a program called "Teach like a natural horse trainer!"? :lol:


----------



## Doe

> It is good that there are multiple voices out there reminding those with open minds that it isn't the color of or the name of your stick, it's the way it is wielded. Thus, those that feel satisfaction out of being well equiped with every piece provided in the training catelogue can be happy , while those that don't need them can be happy.


Indeed, well said.


----------



## tinyliny

outnabout said:


> I have transfered what I know from dog training, and what I have learned from working with my horse to the classroom, though. Random thought: do you think I could get rich marketing a program called "Teach like a natural horse trainer!"? :lol:


 
Not a bad idea!


----------



## Doe

thesilverspear said:


> The problem with these threads (and the reason I lose interest in them fairly quickly) is that they all seem to end up with these exchanges where people who can't resist the opportunity for a good rant (really, who can?) compare their anecdotes:
> 
> Post 1: I worked with a horse who was trained with X and it was the most badly behaved horse I've ever had.
> Post 2: My trainer uses X and it's been fantastic. It's really helped me and my horse.
> Post 3: I've had horses for 30 years and think X is just pointless when you apply common sense to your horses.
> 
> Problems are not inherent to X (unless X is in fact beating your horse senseless), but rather how people handle their horses and how well they understand them. That is more important than whether they use training system X or Y. Horses are very sensitive, as we all know, and owners A and B can both be using, or saying they are using, X, but A has very good timing, feel, and a good idea of what X is supposed to be accomplishing, while B has terrible timing, no feel, and is just following the instructions but actually hasn't a clue.


Yes Sarah I agree, these threads are popular, not because of answering questions, or indeed raising them, but because of the chance to vent!


----------



## Rascaholic

I was once one of the darling fluffers "Do NOT ever hit your horse!! Never discipline your baby in a harsh manner!! If you stick that stick out for him to run into you are a cruel horse Mommy/Daddy!" 
Well, while I won't ever beat my darling Rascal, I can say he has "run into the lunge whips butt" while trying to mow me down spooking at a butterfly. My boy has "knocked over the bucket forcefully" when turned his butt in my direction in the stall. He has made loops around the pasture with me on the 4 wheeler because "he just didn't feel like being caught for over 5 hours." Oh and not to mention "I don't feel like picking my feet up so I just cost you a farriers visit for nothing  cause he left and said "when he knows how to pick his feet up call me, but I really don't mind watching you with him for 30 minutes, in the shade with a cool drink, doing nothing while you fight to get his feet up since I can't do it my way. Thanks for the 10$ tip btw "
I have had horses all my life. I have been thrown, kicked, fallen upon, and bitten. I have to say each instance was my own fault! If I had learned long ago the body language, the clues to a ****y mood, and bottom line BETTER HORSE SENSE I would have saved tons of money in Dr visits and such.
Is it natural horsemanship, probably not, but is it cruelty or a beating, Nope! To me it's good sense not to let my 900 pounder run all over me when a simple smack with the flat of my hand can save me thousands in Dr bills 
Edit:
Thankfully we are passed the hoof problem. I owe it all to Rascal for forcing me to let my farrier do his job which turned out to be gently tapping his feet till it got annoying as hell and he lifted it. DUHHHHHHH Here's my sign for not asking HOW he wanted to go about teaching him before I spouted off my mouth ****. It only cost me a couple hundred in farrier visits.


----------



## mysticalhorse

I am a new horse owner, but have been involved in horses for 25 yrs. I appreaciate NH methods to an extent but I do what works with my gurls including hard tying my 3yr old greenbean to a post for 8 1/2 hrs yesterday so she would finalky allow me to put meds on her back legs. It was HOT 108° actual temp.... I offered her cool fresh water every hour but refused to release her till she did what I needed from her. Was it " mean" someone Im sure will think so, but it worked with my stubborn, fearful filly. And she still followed me around the yard last night & this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs

DraftyAiresMum said:


> As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
> “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”
> 
> I think that this is the case with NH. *It makes every armchair cowboy think that they're a trainer*, when all they end up doing is ruining a good horse (as in the case of my Dakota).


LOL, that is the best quote I have seen in a while and so true.

The bolded part is my biggest problem with the whole commercialized NH movement. People watch the DVDs and then go out and buy a horse they have no business buying because "They've seen so-and-so's DVDs so that automatically qualifies them to deal with a horse that has issues that are sometimes very serious and/or dangerous". Then, when they get into trouble, they just spend more money on "Stop bucking/rearing/bolting/charging" DVDs instead of taking that money and finding someone who can work hands-on with both them and their horse. 

I have no issue with people buying the DVD's to learn a bit more about how a horse thinks or maybe pick up a new method for their tool box, but a DVD can't teach you timing if you don't already have a natural predisposition to correct timing with horses that comes from a natural feel. How many times have we all seen videos of some average person that finally gets a chance to have a session with their DVD trainer that they've been following for years? I've seen it on PP and CA videos both. 

BNT tells owner "Okay, when he does that, apply increasing pressure here until he does this, start light and get harder if he doesn't respond", owner applies pressure that is either way too light, way too hard, or has no increase in force and gets corrected by BNT, repeat several times until the owner gets pressure build-up correct, horse moves but owner keeps pressure on for an additional 5 or 10 or 20 seconds with BNT telling them "stop pressure, stop pressure, Stop Pressure, STOP PRESSURE", owner finally stops pressure but then is surprised that Sparky hasn't learned anything.

If they cannot get the timing/pressure correct with their beloved BNT right there talking in their ear every moment and showing them what to do over and over, what are the chances that they are getting the timing/pressure correct at home? Zero. So what good is that particular method doing for either the horse or the owner? Zero. What are the odds that owner is going to be able to correct <insert training issue here> without hands-on help? Non-existent.

DVDs cannot replace a real life, hands-on trainer for teaching people how to handle their horses. The problem with many of the BNTs is that they preach about how this DVD or that DVD or this halter or that stick is all you'll ever need for success...plus thousands of dollars to join their little clubs and chat rooms and follow their clinic tours. For goodness sakes, some people could send their horse to a professional dressage/reining/pleasure horse trainer and get back a fully trained horse for less than they spend in a year following some DVD trainer that just shows them how to get their horse to lunge and jump over picnic tables or colored barrels.

As for the whole "cowboy" thing. Most folks mis-understand the definition of a cowboy. Just because a person works on a ranch, riding horses and working cattle, that does not make him a cowboy, that just makes him a ranch hand. A true cowboy is _also_ a horseman. He understands horses and treats them fairly, knows when to use a firm hand and when to use a soft whisper. A true cowboy does not wear rock grinder spurs and gouge a horse for mis-behaving, they do no use vicious bits on an ill-prepared horse just to make them listen. I live in a ranching community in a ranching area and I know dozens of ranch hands. Out of those dozens of men, how many do you think I consider "cowboys"? _Maybe_ 5 or 6...out of dozens that work on ranches every day.


----------



## mysticalhorse

Rascaholic said:


> I was once one of the darling fluffers "Do NOT ever hit your horse!! Never discipline your baby in a harsh manner!! If you stick that stick out for him to run into you are a cruel horse Mommy/Daddy!"
> Well, while I won't ever beat my darling Rascal, I can say he has "run into the lunge whips butt" while trying to mow me down spooking at a butterfly. My boy has "knocked over the bucket forcefully" when turned his butt in my direction in the stall. He has made loops around the pasture with me on the 4 wheeler because "he just didn't feel like being caught for over 5 hours." Oh and not to mention "I don't feel like picking my feet up so I just cost you a farriers visit for nothing  cause he left and said "when he knows how to pick his feet up call me, but I really don't mind watching you with him for 30 minutes, in the shade with a cool drink, doing nothing while you fight to get his feet up since I can't do it my way. Thanks for the 10$ tip btw "
> I have had horses all my life. I have been thrown, kicked, fallen upon, and bitten. I have to say each instance was my own fault! If I had learned long ago the body language, the clues to a ****y mood, and bottom line BETTER HORSE SENSE I would have saved tons of money in Dr visits and such.
> Is it natural horsemanship, probably not, but is it cruelty or a beating, Nope! To me it's good sense not to let my 900 pounder run all over me when a simple smack with the flat of my hand can save me thousands in Dr bills
> Edit:
> Thankfully we are passed the hoof problem. I owe it all to Rascal for forcing me to let my farrier do his job which turned out to be gently tapping his feet till it got annoying as hell and he lifted it. DUHHHHHHH Here's my sign for not asking HOW he wanted to go about teaching him before I spouted off my mouth ****. It only cost me a couple hundred in farrier visits.


I thankfully kept my mouth shut or my farrier probably would have done the same thing ; D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doe

> Thankfully we are passed the hoof problem. I owe it all to Rascal for forcing me to let my farrier do his job which turned out to be gently tapping his feet till it got annoying as hell and he lifted it. DUHHHHHHH Here's my sign for not asking HOW he wanted to go about teaching him before I spouted off my mouth ****. It only cost me a couple hundred in farrier visits.


Respect. There's a hundred ways to skin a cat. I respect you for your honesty. I see too much ego in the horse world. I learn from horses and ultimately only from horses. People can direct me but only horses teach me.

I learn more from my mistakes than I ever do from my successes. Successes are about refinement.

Just yesterday my fiancé was watching me working loosely in the field with 4 horses at liberty. We were driving back home when I suddenly (thinking to myself) said out loud 'oh you dumbass!' No it wasn't road rage. I had been working with the horses and not understanding why they were so suddenly relatively insecure of what I was asking. Then it hit me. It's a sunny summers day and I have new sunglasses which are so light (carbon fibre frames) that I forgot they were there. My eyes are as important as my posture, and I never cover them.


----------



## Whisper22

smrobs said:


> LOL, that is the best quote I have seen in a while and so true.
> 
> The bolded part is my biggest problem with the whole commercialized NH movement. People watch the DVDs and then go out and buy a horse they have no business buying because "They've seen so-and-so's DVDs so that automatically qualifies them to deal with a horse that has issues that are sometimes very serious and/or dangerous". Then, when they get into trouble, they just spend more money on "Stop bucking/rearing/bolting/charging" DVDs instead of taking that money and finding someone who can work hands-on with both them and their horse.
> 
> I have no issue with people buying the DVD's to learn a bit more about how a horse thinks or maybe pick up a new method for their tool box, but a DVD can't teach you timing if you don't already have a natural predisposition to correct timing with horses that comes from a natural feel. How many times have we all seen videos of some average person that finally gets a chance to have a session with their DVD trainer that they've been following for years? I've seen it on PP and CA videos both.
> 
> BNT tells owner "Okay, when he does that, apply increasing pressure here until he does this, start light and get harder if he doesn't respond", owner applies pressure that is either way too light, way too hard, or has no increase in force and gets corrected by BNT, repeat several times until the owner gets pressure build-up correct, horse moves but owner keeps pressure on for an additional 5 or 10 or 20 seconds with BNT telling them "stop pressure, stop pressure, Stop Pressure, STOP PRESSURE", owner finally stops pressure but then is surprised that Sparky hasn't learned anything.
> 
> If they cannot get the timing/pressure correct with their beloved BNT right there talking in their ear every moment and showing them what to do over and over, what are the chances that they are getting the timing/pressure correct at home? Zero. So what good is that particular method doing for either the horse or the owner? Zero. What are the odds that owner is going to be able to correct <insert training issue here> without hands-on help? Non-existent.
> 
> DVDs cannot replace a real life, hands-on trainer for teaching people how to handle their horses. The problem with many of the BNTs is that they preach about how this DVD or that DVD or this halter or that stick is all you'll ever need for success...plus thousands of dollars to join their little clubs and chat rooms and follow their clinic tours. For goodness sakes, some people could send their horse to a professional dressage/reining/pleasure horse trainer and get back a fully trained horse for less than they spend in a year following some DVD trainer that just shows them how to get their horse to lunge and jump over picnic tables or colored barrels.
> 
> As for the whole "cowboy" thing. Most folks mis-understand the definition of a cowboy. Just because a person works on a ranch, riding horses and working cattle, that does not make him a cowboy, that just makes him a ranch hand. A true cowboy is _also_ a horseman. He understands horses and treats them fairly, knows when to use a firm hand and when to use a soft whisper. A true cowboy does not wear rock grinder spurs and gouge a horse for mis-behaving, they do no use vicious bits on an ill-prepared horse just to make them listen. I live in a ranching community in a ranching area and I know dozens of ranch hands. Out of those dozens of men, how many do you think I consider "cowboys"? _Maybe_ 5 or 6...out of dozens that work on ranches every day.


I will be the first to admit that my second horse, also untrained, was bought with the impression that I could do it myself, or at least most of it, from watching Clinton Anderson DVD's. It didn't take me long to figure out that that wasn't going to happen. Was it a mistake? Yes. Do I regret it? NO. I had enough common sense to find myself a trainer to help me get the job done. Even though the DVD's didn't help me to do it all on my own, they did help me to feel confident on the ground and to guide me in the right direction for the desired results. Not knowing there were so many different aproaches to horses in the first place, NH gave me a starting point, one that turned out to be the best option for me. I'm sure I could have found a "cowboy" to start my horses, I just don't feel like that would have been the best option.

Like bsms said, you (general) cannot only call the good cowboys "cowboys" and then claim there are bad Natural Horsemen.


----------



## smrobs

Whisper22 said:


> Like bsms said, you (general) cannot only call the good cowboys "cowboys" and then claim there are bad Natural Horsemen.


"Horsemen" being the operative word there. If a person does NH but does it poorly, then they are not a horseman at all. So, no, there are no bad natural horsemen because in order to be qualified as a natural horseman at all, you have to be a horseman first.

"Cowboy" and "horseman" are not titles lightly given to anyone who _happens_ to train horses or _happens_ to ride horses and work cattle. Those titles are _earned_ by a person's deeds, abilities, and ideals. There are lots of trainers who are not horseman and there are lots of horsemen who are not trainers. There are lots of cowboys who are not ranch hands and there are lots of ranch hands who are not cowboys.


----------



## Doe

> I do what works with my gurls including hard tying my 3yr old greenbean to a post for 8 1/2 hrs yesterday so she would finalky allow me to put meds on her back legs. It was HOT 108° actual temp.... I offered her cool fresh water every hour but refused to release her till she did what I needed from her. Was it " mean" someone I'm sure will think so, but it worked with my stubborn, fearful filly. And she still followed me around the yard last night & this morning.


Ok I'll bite :wink:
Does it work? Obviously it did.
Is it horsemanship? Debatable.
Is it the most effective manner? Arguably not especially where meds are concerned.

Horses know when we need to do certain things for their own interest. Recent example. A very spooky tiny Arab 3 year old. Gets loose in a 5 acre field with grass waist high. Stuffs and colics.

She's kicking and fighting to go down. 

I ask her to keep following me, keep her focus, no emotion unlike the owners. Just focussed intent.

Then the vet arrives. Bless him. Great vet. All 6 foot 8 inches of pureblood Irishman that he is.

"er I need to shove my arm up her ****" (his exact words - but he's a great vet as I said, direct but great) 

Ok.

Well, has she had it before?


Er, hang on....... owners? Has she had a length of arm up her derriere? ......

No

Er.... That's a no then.

Oh. Well we need to tie her.

(me) erm, thats not the best way. Can we try without?

Without what?

Erm without anything. Just standing. Me at her face.

Not sure about that. You sure?

Well it's what she will accept more easily.

Ok, well I'll give it a go (see great ve't) but if it's an issue we need to tie her.

Agreed.

How old is she again?

3

Oh. Ok.

(job done - she stood there like nothing happened)

The point? If you need to tie a horse for 8 hours to get it to accept meds? You have some serious issues with the horse, or rather the horse has serious issues with you.................


----------



## Whisper22

smrobs said:


> "Horsemen" being the operative word there. If a person does NH but does it poorly, then they are not a horseman at all. So, no, there are no bad natural horsemen because in order to be qualified as a natural horseman at all, you have to be a horseman first.
> 
> "Cowboy" and "horseman" are not titles lightly given to anyone who _happens_ to train horses or _happens_ to ride horses and work cattle. Those titles are _earned_ by a person's deeds, abilities, and ideals. There are lots of trainers who are not horseman and there are lots of horsemen who are not trainers. There are lots of cowboys who are not ranch hands and there are lots of ranch hands who are not cowboys.


I completely agree. So the blame for how annoying NH has become should not be put on the method itself, but those who are abusing it.

I have an honest question. If a "cowboy" by your definition, switched his training methods to NH, would he be less of a "cowboy"? Can a "cowboy" be both? I think they can, but I'de like to know what others think.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Rascaholic said:


> I was once one of the darling fluffers "Do NOT ever hit your horse!! Never discipline your baby in a harsh manner!! If you stick that stick out for him to run into you are a cruel horse Mommy/Daddy!"
> Well, while I won't ever beat my darling Rascal, I can say he has "run into the lunge whips butt" while trying to mow me down spooking at a butterfly. My boy has "knocked over the bucket forcefully" when turned his butt in my direction in the stall. He has made loops around the pasture with me on the 4 wheeler because "he just didn't feel like being caught for over 5 hours." Oh and not to mention "I don't feel like picking my feet up so I just cost you a farriers visit for nothing  cause he left and said "when he knows how to pick his feet up call me, but I really don't mind watching you with him for 30 minutes, in the shade with a cool drink, doing nothing while you fight to get his feet up since I can't do it my way. Thanks for the 10$ tip btw "
> I have had horses all my life. I have been thrown, kicked, fallen upon, and bitten. I have to say each instance was my own fault! If I had learned long ago the body language, the clues to a ****y mood, and bottom line BETTER HORSE SENSE I would have saved tons of money in Dr visits and such.
> Is it natural horsemanship, probably not, but is it cruelty or a beating, Nope! To me it's good sense not to let my 900 pounder run all over me when a simple smack with the flat of my hand can save me thousands in Dr bills
> Edit:
> Thankfully we are passed the hoof problem. I owe it all to Rascal for forcing me to let my farrier do his job which turned out to be gently tapping his feet till it got annoying as hell and he lifted it. DUHHHHHHH Here's my sign for not asking HOW he wanted to go about teaching him before I spouted off my mouth ****. It only cost me a couple hundred in farrier visits.


 I love this. Your shoer sounds like a wise and patient man. I've shoed since 1993 and have many similar stories to share. In many cases people thought I was too rough. These were always the belligerent disrespectful horses. But I've had dozens of people ask me "Do you EVER get mad?" because their scared colt had been jerking on me for half a day and I was still smiling and cutting up. I have a ridiculous amount of patience with a scared horse. Your farrier probably does too. 
But a big reason for starting this thread was to remind people that we shouldn't have to explain when we have to take ahold of a horse. We don't have to candy-coat everything we say and do to keep from offending someone. We shouln't have to worry if an onlooker is gonna call the authorities if we have to get a horse's attention. But we do have to worry because those onlookers have watched the trainers on RFDTV and youtube and *they'd never do that!* We shouldn't need to be so politically correct, but we are because NH people have made us feel guilty if we want to get the job done NOW
I agree 100% with the folks that commented that nothing replaces time spent with horses and experience.


----------



## Whisper22

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I love this. Your shoer sounds like a wise and patient man. I've shoed since 1993 and have many similar stories to share. In many cases people thought I was too rough. These were always the belligerent disrespectful horses. But I've had dozens of people ask me "Do you EVER get mad?" because their scared colt had been jerking on me for half a day and I was still smiling and cutting up. I have a ridiculous amount of patience with a scared horse. Your farrier probably does too.
> But a big reason for starting this thread was to remind people that we shouldn't have to explain when we have to take ahold of a horse. We don't have to candy-coat everything we say and do to keep from offending someone. We shouln't have to worry if an onlooker is gonna call the authorities if we have to get a horse's attention. We don't need to be so politically correct.
> I agree 100% with the folks that commented that nothing replaces time spent with horses and experience.


Ok, now I'm confused. I wasn't under the impression that NH meant I couldn't discipline my horse. My horses get whacked all the time by their trainers and the farrier if need be. All but the farrier practice NH. I've watched mostly Clinton Anderson and even he says to give your horse a good whack if their not listening.


----------



## smrobs

IMHO, the annoyance about the NH thing is about the people who are abusing it, those who do it cluelessly, and the general *******ization of the whole thing in the name of advertising and money. The foundation and basics are sound when you look past the ridiculousness that much of it has become. NH, at it's roots, does not say that you cannot use force to correct a bad behavior. NH is about using the way a horse thinks to get him to understand. They understand a herd hierarchy and they follow their alpha. It is the handler's responsibility to make themselves that alpha. Sometimes that means being uber friendly and other times that means becoming a holy terror of whips and loud noises. Every situation depends solely on what type of horse you are dealing with and how he responds to what you do.

Yes, I believe a cowboy can study NH and I wouldn't consider him any less of a cowboy. Many of the men that I consider cowboys who also train horses do many of the same things that are common in NH. However, in these groups, those methods are widely understood as just common sense horsemanship. A horseman is a horseman regardless if he wears jods and a top hat or shotgun chaps and a cowboy hat. 

One key to being a good horseman is to be sensible...about everything. Even when a person is a fan of some big NH trainer, so long as they are sensible about things and keep an open mind to learning other ways along with their own, then they are on the road to becoming a horseman. 

It's those people who close themselves and their horse off to all other methods or ideas outside their little box of discs that have lost that sensibility. They believe that their way is the one true way and the only true way and all others are just wrong. Those people will never be horsemen because they have ceased to learn anything beyond what is on those discs. The moment you stop learning from any and all sensible sources is the moment that you lose the privilege of being considered anything close to a horseman.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Whisper22 said:


> Ok, now I'm confused. I wasn't under the impression that NH meant I couldn't discipline my horse. My horses get whacked all the time by their trainers and the farrier if need be. All but the farrier practice NH. I've watched mostly Clinton Anderson and even he says to give your horse a good whack if their not listening.


 I may be wrong on that. I don't watch NH trainers regularly, but from what I've seen, they shame anyone who gets physical. I got Pat Parelli's book when the NH became popular and I read it until I saw his statement "Horses don't respond to physical punishment". That's when I gave the book to somebody. Because I saw horses physically punish each other and it seemed to work for them. Maybe they aren't all like that.

You're right on Clinton Anderson, I've seen him a little more and he does wack them. BUT!!...he then has to explain himself by saying, "DID YOU SEE THAT, HE JUST RAN INTO MY WHIP!" because it's frowned upon.


----------



## bsms

smrobs said:


> ..."Cowboy" and "horseman" are not titles lightly given to anyone who happens to train horses or happens to ride horses and work cattle. Those titles are earned by a person's deeds, abilities, and ideals. There are lots of trainers who are not horseman and there are lots of horsemen who are not trainers. There are lots of cowboys who are not ranch hands and there are lots of ranch hands who are not cowboys.


Well, if a guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch isn't a cowboy, what do we call him? "Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses" is kind of a long title. It just doesn't work to say, "My horse was badly hurt by a [Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses]!"

Is someone who spurs the heck out of horses, and throws them to shoe them, a good cowboy, or an example for other cowboys to follow? Nope. But is he a cowboy?

"a man who herds and tends cattle on a ranch, especially in the western U.S., and who traditionally goes about most of his work on horseback."

Yep, he's a cowboy - by the dictionary meaning. You cannot compare cowboys and NH trainers, as the original poster did, and then later qualify it by saying the only real cowboys are cowboys who are good with horses. In that case, the only real NH trainers are the ones good with horses, so both cowboys and NH trainers are good with horses.

If someone wants to hold up cowboys as guys who really do well with horses, then he needs to qualify it by saying cowboys who really work well with horses are guys who work really well with horses - and that becomes pretty stupid.

There are lots of cowboys who live their lives with horses, know them and understand them, and know how to handle a horse without anyone helping them. If I had grown up around horses all my life, and spent a lifetime with them, I wouldn't need help either. 

John Lyons doesn't make me want to vomit. His principles have worked well for me in working with horses. The cowboy who left Trooper bloody makes me want to vomit...and since he worked cattle on a working ranch, "cowboy" is the word most people would use to describe him. The alternative just takes too long to type.


----------



## bsms

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I may be wrong on that. I don't watch NH trainers regularly, but from what I've seen, they shame anyone who gets physical. I got Pat Parelli's book when the NH became popular and I read it until I saw his statement "Horses don't respond to physical punishment"...


I don't watch any NH trainers, since I don't have a TV, but the John Lyons trained trainer got after me for not being tough enough with my mare. When I first started working her in the round pen, she said I was "inviting" Mia to turn.

"Does Mia ever invite another horse to do anything? Have you EVER seen her say please to another horse? She DEMANDS obedience, and you need to do so as well."

That doesn't mean beating her with a club, but the usual alternative is to make her move her feet - to work or to do something she doesn't like until she 'wants' to do it my way. Then release.

Or as the riding instructor I'm taking western riding lessons from puts it, "You cannot make a horse do anything, but you can remove his alternatives until he does what you want." But that movement to what you want doesn't have to be the complete thing. When training a horse to get in a trailer, you don't keep the pressure on without release until the horse is all the way in the trailer. You keep it up until the horse moves a foot in the right direction, then break. Then you start again, until there is more progress. Eventually you get one foot momentarily in the trailer...and eventually (since there is no where else to go), you get the horse in the trailer.

The first time I saw a horse loaded into a trailer - on a ranch - they got him close, tied him so there was no where else to go, then beat on him until he went in. That 'worked', but it pretty well guaranteed the next time would be ugly too.

The principles of NH aren't tough. Learning to read the horse well enough to adjust your pressure and time your release to get the quickest communication with the horse? THAT takes a LOT longer!

There are idiots like that Nevzorov fellow who I guess claims to be a NH, but that no more means all NH are idiots than a cowboy who abuses a horse means all cowboys do so. There are cowboys whose skill with a horse takes my breath away...and not. And there are NH trainers who I've seen get good results with my horses, and there are others out there making asses of themselves.

But I'll put a plug in for those of us who have bought horses and then go, "What now?" You can laugh or denigrate us, but if you've never been around horses much, you don't know what you don't know.

And when you start to find out, you can give up, or get help. If I succeed in training Mia to reduce the level of expertise needed to safely ride her while raising my level of riding until we meet, I will have made a huge jump in my 'horsemanship'. And since that stubborn mare is the horse that got me interested in riding, and I don't want to ship her to Mexico, I'm paying for professional help for both of us - and reading, including reading on this forum. We've been at it for nearly 3 years of up and downs, and I've got some long term pain in my hip to remind me of the risks. 50 isn't the optimum age to take up seriously riding horses. Mia and I have both made progress, so perhaps we'll get there. Or maybe I'll be hurt bad - that is a risk anyone takes around horses, although inexperience and an aging body raises it some for me.

As for the ex-ranch horse that was loaned to another ranch...with some time, and help from that John Lyons trained trainer, my 13 year old daughter rides him around, often with feet out of the stirrups and rein around the horn, singing songs to him. He is once again a very good-natured horse who tries to do what you want him to do. I'm inclined to chalk that up as a plus sign in the NH corner...


----------



## Prinella

I think like with many other things it comes with the good and the bad. I find when watching pat I have to listen more to what he's saying because it's not working on screen. "see how relaxed she is" ears pinned tail swishing yeh real relaxed. 

I do use a modified version of his techniques on my own horses and our rescues and it works incredibly well. I work princess at liberty because it's fun. Most of the games are not essential to training but do help. Saying that it's very handy when at feed time I point to her chest and she goes backwards!

I find with Ella that again having the ability to snap out hindquarter yields is incredibly useful. That being said it's becoming more and more commercialized. I buy all my halters from parellis old supplier they no longer supply the brand so don't come with the parelli stamp they're like a third of the price. 

My instructor was looking at renewing her parelli certification because there is plenty of need for a parelli instructor in our area but decided against it because certified parelli instructor are not allowed to teach anyone not in the parelli program. Seriously wtf?

I think many techniques are becomming more Normal rather then fancy pants nh


----------



## Katesrider011

bsms said:


> 1 - In the past, almost everyone had grown up around horses and knew how to read their body language. When you lived daily with streets full of horses, their behavior was just part of your world.
> 
> For many of us, horses are foreign. I didn't grow up on a ranch surrounded by horses, so I appreciate trainers who help me understand how horses think and react.
> 
> After 3 years of living with horses, I'm getting a lot better - but when I started, the videos then on StateLineTack were invaluable to me. And the one set of DVDs from John Lyon helped me too.
> 
> 2 - Carrot sticks & cowboys. I don't care if folks sell stuff, but I've never bought anything but a DVD from any NH trainer. I have hired a woman trained in the John Lyons system, and she got excellent results with our small Arabian mare (never ridden before) and our gelding (fearful after some idiot COWBOY spurred the hell out of him, leaving 2-3 inch holes in his flesh on each side). Same cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a hole in his flesh on his withers, too!
> 
> In fact, our farrier - who regularly works with ranch horses - is certain they roped and threw our gelding to do his feet. With time and training, he now holds his feet in sequence for the farrier.
> 
> It has taken a lot of time to get his trust in humans back. When we first got him, when he saw a person with a cowboy hat & lariat, he blew thru the metal panels of a round pen in panic. Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them.
> 
> Teddy Roosevelt wrote about training horses, either quick or good. I prefer good. And training a horse to accept walking into a trailer beats the snot out of using a come-along every time.


Good post. I agree


----------



## flytobecat

There's nothing new about NH, its been around forever (Xenophon 340 BC). Yeah, the language and props have changed, but the foundation is basically the same. I got admit though the marketing stuff now is genius.
I think to appreciate the NH DVDs, books, etc... and use them as intended you really got to know horses. I grew up around horses, and understood herd dynamics before I even knew what it was. For me reading the NH stuff reminds me of things I already know but have forgotten. 
To someone just coming into the horse world, I don't think these things are that helpful. It's kind of like me watching Dr. Oz and thinking I'm ready to operate. Still, you got start somewhere.
This is my gripe with NH big names. The people who study their stuff want to understand horses through "feel", but in my experience most die-hard NH followers don't spend a lot of time with their horses. 

BSMS-I've seen horses that were cowboy-ed. I get what you are saying, but I think that is more representative of the "Get er done" mentality people associate with "cowboys". For that I blame the evil "black box".:twisted:
Good cowboys know horses and know cows. Wannabes pretend like they do and think its the same thing. Plus, I'm pretty sure most folks would consider Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman cowboys.


----------



## flytobecat

BSMS -I don't think you every really stop learning about horses. That is what makes them so fun.


----------



## smrobs

bsms said:


> Well, if a guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch isn't a cowboy, what do we call him? "Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses" is kind of a long title. It just doesn't work to say, "My horse was badly hurt by a [Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses]!"
> 
> *No, he would be called a ranch hand, as I stated in my earlier post.*
> 
> Is someone who spurs the heck out of horses, and throws them to shoe them, a good cowboy, or an example for other cowboys to follow? Nope. But is he a cowboy?
> 
> *Not in my area. He would be frowned upon as being a brute and an idiot and real cowboys would avoid him.*
> 
> If someone wants to hold up cowboys as guys who really do well with horses, then he needs to qualify it by saying cowboys who really work well with horses are guys who work really well with horses - and that becomes pretty stupid.
> 
> *Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here:? ?*
> 
> There are lots of cowboys who live their lives with horses, know them and understand them, and know how to handle a horse without anyone helping them. If I had grown up around horses all my life, and spent a lifetime with them, I wouldn't need help either.
> 
> *Yes, but you are not claiming to be a cowboy either, are you? There is nothing wrong with needing help. Shoot, I did grow up around horses and I still need help sometimes. It really is offensive to true cowboys to group them in with such a derogatory term. True cowboys get stuck with a bad rap because of all the wannabe yahoos out there who run amok in knee boots, ******, rock grinders, and taco hats playing like they know how to live the life. *
> 
> *Real cowboys know that a horse that is afraid of you is only worth the price of his meat so they train them in a way that the horse has no reason to be afraid. I find this entire thing ridiculous because real cowboys do not "cowboy" their horses. That term is an unfortunate side effect of those wannabes and all those ridiculous western movies that show them bucking out their horses to get them broke simply because that was more dramatic than trotting around in a pen.*
> 
> John Lyons doesn't make me want to vomit. His principles have worked well for me in working with horses. The cowboy who left Trooper bloody makes me want to vomit...and since he worked cattle on a working ranch, "cowboy" is the word most people would use to describe him. The alternative just takes too long to type.


It's unfortunate that your experience with a crappy ranch hand has colored your opinion of an entire group of people. That person is truly a cancer to the cowboy name and people like him are why that derogatory stereotype continues.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

flytobecat said:


> There's nothing new about NH, its been around forever (Xenophon 340 BC). Yeah, the language and props have changed, but the foundation is basically the same. I got admit though the marketing stuff now is genius.
> I think to appreciate the NH DVDs, books, etc... and use them as intended you really got to know horses. I grew up around horses, and understood herd dynamics before I even knew what it was. For me reading the NH stuff reminds me of things I already know but have forgotten.
> To someone just coming into the horse world, I don't think these things are that helpful. It's kind of like me watching Dr. Oz and thinking I'm ready to operate. Still, you got start somewhere.
> This is my gripe with NH big names. The people who study their stuff want to understand horses through "feel", but in my experience most die-hard NH followers don't spend a lot of time with their horses.
> 
> BSMS-I've seen horses that were cowboy-ed. I get what you are saying, but I think that is more representative of the "Get er done" mentality people associate with "cowboys". For that I blame the evil "black box".:twisted:
> Good cowboys know horses and know cows. Wannabes pretend like they do and think its the same thing. Plus, I'm pretty sure most folks would consider Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman cowboys.


 Good post! I did watch a Ray Hunt Video once. I know, I know, I'm the one picking at NH people here but this fella was doing it before all the antics and goofiness started. I really thought he was the man. Nobody would watch it with me cause the tape was about 6 hours long, and boring if you were looking for action or something visually stimulating. But there were sure some solid techniques! And the man was humble; he didn't push his ideas on anyone. He just did a job and people watched.


----------



## Thyme

I have respect for the parelli stuff and all, I have seen the horses, like his wife's amazing Remer, however, it seems like a lot of time teaching them games, and these dont work for all horses, like they sell it for.

Some guy tried to do some Parelli stuff with Rem and my gelding hated it, and started to get aggressive. We stopped playing the games and straight up taught my horse his job, and wah-la, my paint now loves to be ridden. Not all horse want to play around with you, some want you to just tell them clearly what is excepted and what to do, and not waste time. (not saying being aggresiv or anything, you can by gently sterner)


----------



## Saddlebag

When I was a kid I was priveleged to meet some very fine horsemen, who also happened to be cowboys. These guys ate, slept and drank horses. Their knowledge of health issues was incredible as they often had to do their own doctoring. Their horses put in a days work but were always considered first, above the cowboys needs. I always admired the way these cowboys could read their horses and trained them accordingly. Most of these men were long dead before I ever heard the term Natural Horsemanship.


----------



## bsms

smrobs said:


> It's unfortunate that your experience with a crappy ranch hand has colored your opinion of an entire group of people. That person is truly a cancer to the cowboy name and people like him are why that derogatory stereotype continues.


But it hasn't. I've met lots of cowboys I like and respect...but if someone wants to compare "cowboys" with "natural horsemanship", then it isn't fair to say cowboy only refers to good cowboys, while natural horsemanship refers to everyone who calls themselves one.

If I ever get a third horse again, I plan to call my friend with the ranch in Utah and ask him if he has any horses that would fit the bill. Horses trained by cowboys can be awesome...and can also, if trained by poor cowboys (using the dictionary definition) be in need of recovery.

At this point, I could take a green broke horse - if it was broke correctly, by either a cowboy or NH trainer - and finish him the way I like to ride. And my preference, all other things being equal, would be for a horse trained in the basics by a cowboy horseman. Maybe we could call it CH - cowboy horsemanship...a more results-oriented version than most NH, but one still taught using the basic principle of wanting a horse who is a willing partner, rather than a fearful and submissive (maybe) beast.

What got my ire on this thread was slamming John Lyons, when I have seen excellent results from a trainer trained by him. And while I like NH, or CH, perhaps we could agree not to resort to NPH (Namby Pamby Horsemanship), or perhaps better described as BSH (Black Stallion Horsemanship)...


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Saddlebag said:


> When I was a kid I was priveleged to meet some very fine horsemen, who also happened to be cowboys. These guys ate, slept and drank horses. Their knowledge of health issues was incredible as they often had to do their own doctoring. Their horses put in a days work but were always considered first, above the cowboys needs. I always admired the way these cowboys could read their horses and trained them accordingly. Most of these men were long dead before I ever heard the term Natural Horsemanship.


 Cool. Those are the ones I'm trying to defend. Those guys knew what a horse was gonna do before the horse knew.


----------



## tinyliny

Saddlebag said:


> When I was a kid I was priveleged to meet some very fine horsemen, who also happened to be cowboys. These guys ate, slept and drank horses. Their knowledge of health issues was incredible as they often had to do their own doctoring. Their horses put in a days work but were always considered first, above the cowboys needs. I always admired the way these cowboys could read their horses and trained them accordingly. Most of these men were long dead before I ever heard the term Natural Horsemanship.


That IS a great priviledge! And I sorely wish I had had that priviledge. But I haven't , and many , if not most people in horses nowadays won't have that priviledge. But they need that special relationship of having a mentor, thus the appeal of the packaged NH programs. It may be the best that they have access to.

Truth is, nowadays the averag horseperson isn't using horses the same way as before, and the relationship isn't the same, and though that might stick in the craw of the cowboys for being artificial, it is the way of the future for a large number of horse owners, and in fact these owners tend to be the ones that are keeping the equestrian hobbies/sports alive as we move more into the digital age. Like it or not, they don't have the great mentor to teach them first hand. So, please try to keep that in mind when you belittle their efforts to try to learn the old timey skills, repackaged as Natural HOrsemanship.

AND be a mentor. IF you have these skills, share them. Pass them on.
But remember to treat the one trying to learn horsemanship with at least as much patience and compassion as you would treat a horse trying to learn those skills.


----------



## AlexS

Doe said:


> Simply because the thread was aimed at the NH trainers. Of the generally 'known' brands they are all American and all dress like cowboys. The exception is CA who is an Aus but still dresses like a cowboy and now lives in the US.



I don't care one jot about how someone dresses, that is the least thing on my mind when I am training a horse. I do care about their methods though.

I do not want a horse that I can drape a tarp over, or is fearless of a whip. I want to be able to move a horse forward using a whip both in the round pen and under saddle. 
I once had a female farrier that I tried (I am female) she told me that my horse was lowering his head and licking because he liked the work she was doing - erm no crazy lady, he is a laid back guy and falls asleep in the cross ties, that is what he does. 

I think that NH ties in human female emotions, and it is not truthful. We as females think we can tame things, the bad guy, we can just speak our soft ways and they become the perfect husband and father. 

Nope, this thought process is not for me.


----------



## waresbear

This is certainly an interesting thread, great view points. I must say, I still want everyone who can afford it, to get into horses, ride them, play with them, take care of them, enjoy them. If any of these methods help one iota, good! Nothing worse than seeing a newbie all excited about horses, then getting one & seeing it rot in the pasture then be disposed of by whatever means. If any of these methods help them get out there & renew their interest, even if it's just a start & they get a trainer or help, I say it's worth it. The more people owning & enjoying horses the better.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

*Horses and Humans*

I live on a island on which there is no role for the professional cowboy. The national relationship with horses which began over two thousand years ago was to use a horse as a beast of burden or as a weapon of war. In pre historic times the horse was bred for food.

Today the horse‘s role is primarily that of a playmate. Some couples chase foxes, some jump ridiculously high painted barriers, some dance together in a ritualised routine. A few horses are used merely as enjoyment of the green countryside away from the maddening crowds. Too many horses are left neglected to graze in weed ridden fields. Owning a horse has become a multi faceted process through which we satisfy some innate emotional urge which is lacking in our every day way of life.

Over here the techniques used traditionally by a cowboy working everyday with horses has minimal relevance to the English sporting world. Likewise the fancy movements of a Grand prix dressage rider have little relevance to a cowboy working cattle in wild open spaces. Why would the cowboy think to encourage his horse to jump a high, wide, pointless, painted barrier? The cowboy carries a rope, the pleasure rider carries a whip. But whatever riding style is employed the rider still has to learn how to sit and control a powerful animal. The old methods of management used by the professional farmer, soldier or tradesman are no longer seen to be humane and the ends no longer justify the means. The horse has rights record in law of peaceful co-existence with man.

Natural horsemanship is a broad philosophy under which a follower has accepted that communication and persuasion are better tools than the whip and force. In the past riders learnt about horses through books stuffed full with confusing jargon whereas now the youngster of today slips a CD into a laptop so as to watch and listen. Nevertheless the path of learning about horses takes as long to tread as it has always done. 

Everywhere in the modern way of living, the brand promotes the image of success. The name on the brim of the riding hat, along with the label on the breeches indicate style and competence. Even the horse born with warm blood is perceived to command a substantial premium over the common cob. To join this world wide club, the rider must acquire the trappings of membership. Even the cowboy buys a tall broad brimmed hat, a wide leather belt with a big silver buckle and a pair of high heeled boots.

Compadres of Tom Dorrance would smile knowingly. They always knew that whilst the horse had to conquer its fear of humans; the human feared loss of dignity through incompetence. 

I will admit that fundamentally I keep my huzzy of a horse because she gives me cause to care and as such I am vulnerable to influence by the canny marketing man.


----------



## thesilverspear

Aye, that was my point earlier. Very little natural horsemanship over here. I was searching for trainers in the Central Belt and South West of Scotland, just for an exercise and found one. And really had to dig through Google to find her. However, there's no shortage of struggling and clueless horse owners, just like in the States. 

So the perspective I have is that you can't blame lousy horsemanship on people jumping on the NH bandwagon. Not much of a bandwagon here, but plenty of rubbish horsemanship.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

smrobs said:


> One key to being a good horseman is to be sensible...about everything. Even when a person is a fan of some big NH trainer, so long as they are sensible about things and keep an open mind to learning other ways along with their own, then they are on the road to becoming a horseman.
> 
> It's those people who close themselves and their horse off to all other methods or ideas outside their little box of discs that have lost that sensibility. They believe that their way is the one true way and the only true way and all others are just wrong. Those people will never be horsemen because they have ceased to learn anything beyond what is on those discs. The moment you stop learning from any and all sensible sources is the moment that you lose the privilege of being considered anything close to a horseman.


Nail hit squarely on the head.
Terrific post!



Doe said:


> Ok I'll bite :wink:
> Does it work? Obviously it did.
> Is it horsemanship? Debatable.
> Is it the most effective manner? Arguably not especially where meds are concerned.
> 
> Horses know when we need to do certain things for their own interest. Recent example. A very spooky tiny Arab 3 year old. Gets loose in a 5 acre field with grass waist high. Stuffs and colics.<snip>
> 
> (job done - she stood there like nothing happened)
> 
> The point? If you need to tie a horse for 8 hours to get it to accept meds? You have some serious issues with the horse, or rather the horse has serious issues with you.................


I do not see how that story shows a horse with training to the point of accepting meds. Not at all. It is nice that the mare stood well for her rectal. That does not scream 'perfectly trained horse' to me.


----------



## christopher

i dont really mind alot of the NH stuff, but linda parelli is one person i will probably never take advice from. so much of the stuff she writes is just simply ridiculous.


----------



## iridehorses

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Cool. Those are the ones I'm trying to defend. Those guys knew what a horse was gonna do before the horse knew.


To paraphrase the words of one of the early NH trainers (I believe it was Tom Dorance) "Horsemanship is knowing what is going to happen before what happened, happens."


----------



## mysticalhorse

She does not have training yet, she is still frightened of many thing, her injury to her front leg is all the way to her bone/joint capusle so I could not use NH training methods to treat her rear legs. I can do whats needed to her front leg, give her shots, oral meds etc, but since she became trapped in the fence last Friday she became extremely shy on her rear legs again. I did what was needed for the sitution, what was best gor us both & safe for us both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## coffeegod

Doe said:


> Then the vet arrives. Bless him. Great vet. All 6 foot 8 inches of pureblood Irishman that he is.


Can you introduce me? Puh-leese? :lol:


----------



## Doe

Alwaysbehind said:


> Nail hit squarely on the head.
> Terrific post!
> 
> 
> I do not see how that story shows a horse with training to the point of accepting meds. Not at all. It is nice that the mare stood well for her rectal. That does not scream 'perfectly trained horse' to me.


Exactly. I didn't mention anything about training. The thread began with the question what has happened to common sense?

I was merely illustrating that perhaps tying an animal for 8 hours in whatever heat to get it to take meds that are seriously needed is not a common sense approach. Secondly I believe that horses too can exhibit 'common sense' when something is really in their interest. We simply have to know how to ask, what to read, and using 'common sense' put them in the easiest position to understand.


----------



## Doe

coffeegod said:


> Can you introduce me? Puh-leese? :lol:


Lol he's very married sorry!


----------



## thesilverspear

Am I the only one who is mildly amused that someone took issue with Doe's anecdote, but not the anecdote that involved tying a horse for eight hours in stifling heat?


----------



## Alwaysbehind

I only took issue with it because she posted it as an example of something to do with training.

I agree that tying a horse for eight hours in the heat teaches them nothing (well maybe some patience, but nothing to do with taking any meds).


----------



## MyBoyPuck

Sadly there will always be folks who see life through a straw. Expanding their mind and thinking outside the box just isn't in their nature. Some very smart horse folks managed to pack that idea into a brightly colored box, market it, and become stinking rich. Label it what you will, NH, cowboys, DQs, etc, some ideas are good while others are not. Only common sense allows a person to see that something is not working and it's time to try something new, hence this thread. The only good training method is the one that works.


----------



## thesilverspear

I read it as an example of him getting a fairly untrained horse to stand for something unpleasant by approaching it with the right attitude, as opposed to using more coercive methods, i.e. tying it in the heat for eight hours.


----------



## BFFofHorses

I don't have a problem with NH as a concept, can't say I use it but I have nothing against it. What I have a problem with is ignorant horse people who think that after reading a book or watching a dvd they can "train their very own horsie". I also have a problem with that because if they succeed (they rarely do) then they think they can train any horse, not only hurting themselves, but also giving other people the worst advice they could give. I have grown up with horses, obviously not everyone has. So instead of taking the cheap way out, hire a trainer. go work with someon hands on. Shadow someone for a week. Ride/Train with an experianced friend. Use Dvds and books for additional information- not your training philosophies. Don't limit yourself to just training and riding, talk to a vet and farrier. If horses are important to you take the time to learn every aspect. I read horse books I have nothing against them. But I do not use one book to train a horse, I use my years of experiance, every ride Ive ever been on, every book I have read, every day I have worked with a horse. It is experiance that does the job, not a dvd.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Few of us oldies, who have spent decades working with horses would disagree with that BFF has just posted. Experience good and bad is the only way to learn about such a complex creature as a horse. Acquiring that experience takes years and lots of patience and it would seem that impatience is more prevalent in the modern way of living than patience. 

It is sad that in an era when there are so many tools to aid learning that folks don't make full use of them. I have about 125 horsey books on my library shelf. However when recently thinking of how to publish a book of my own, I realised that it would be better to make a DVD or perhaps create a web site which contains, text to be read, links to explain the technical jargon, coloured still photos and coloured videos complete with a sound commentary. I suspect even then that few youngster would take the time to view the work. 

PS If only I could not include my horse in such media - she is an object lesson for any budding rider.


----------



## Doe

thesilverspear said:


> I read it as an example of him getting a fairly untrained horse to stand for something unpleasant by approaching it with the right attitude, as opposed to using more coercive methods, i.e. tying it in the heat for eight hours.


Exactly Silver, and funnily enough often times the horses will meet you with that attitude.

To understand anyone we have to ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. Horses are no different. To understand them we have to learn to ask questions. Few people are willing to consider that option, yet alone listen to the answers. Too many methods are based on human assumptions, ignorance, impatience and fear.


----------



## mysticalhorse

Anyone of you are welcome to come out and treat Spyder's wounds. Even my vet needed to twitch her after her sleepy shot to wash them. She stood for everything else but my safety comes 1st then hers. She is calm and healing now & will allow the topical meds on her rear legs below her hock. I was only pointing out that sometime you have to do it differently then NH methods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mysticalhorse

Also I will add, she is fearful of people she doesnt know, has had little to no handling before I got her, will flip her butt to rear kick in fear and I can now treat her untied.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## scenestorm

I'm not sure how I feel about this... 

I do agree that it's a money thing, but if you want to buy a really great quality rope halter from jonathan field, or some Parelli Macate reins (I have those, HIGHLY recommend them), then that's your choice. I've bought some things, like I said the reins etc, and they're GREAT quality.

I'm going to buy a 12 foot rope from JF, and probably a horseman's stick as well. I know his saddles are also AMAZING..

The thing with this is, yes, its a money thing, BUT on the other hand, they're making great products that really are very useful... I have no experience with this "carrot stick" I've actually never even seen one I don't think...

Anyways, without going on and on, I don't really agree with anything else you've said.
I have girls at my stable that I just want to smack upside the head! They yell and scream and freak out at their horses for no reason other than the fact that the horse saw a scary piece of plastic or something... I'm like HELLOO!!! Haven't you ever heard of being C-A-L-M! It's a very simple thing to do... just breathe...

I don't know... I love natural horsemanship, and one day I want to be one of the greats, The Parellis, Jonathan Field, Clinton Anderson (although I don't like Clinton as much as the other two)... and I beleive NH is the only way to have a real GREAT horse. I'm not talking a good performance horse, or even a great perfomance horse... I'm talking a GREAT horse that loves people, that loves his job, that LOVES being treated the way he's treated. Not one that's great because it's forced or scared into being great.

Wow okay, I'm done now


----------



## scenestorm

Oh and I just had another point pop into my head- the Parelli methods (much like any other NH methods) and meant to be used PROPERLY... sure you can take tidbits out here and there, but you need to make sure you're executing them the right way, because "using" these methods without really knowing what you're doing can and probably will ruin a horse. So don't blame the product or the methods, because they work, obviously, look at the Parellis, look at Jonathan Field, and look at Clinton Anderson... They've all got INCREDIBLE horses. Because they know what they're doing.

Just thought I'd point that out.


----------



## To ride the sky

To me it doesn't matter what human created title we give to a style of training I don't like to approach things with a preconcieved notion of what it will be. The main problem tends to be that people jump on a band wagon with out knowing all about it! I myself am open to looking into any method and use various and follow various trainers methods such as Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (Who is the absolute top imho),Jonathan Field, most of the Parelli 'program' lol with the exception of a few aspects and Mike Kevil who knocked me off my feet with the amazing bond he managed to form with the horse he was assigned at a colt starting challenge while being super calm and gentle the is no such thing as negative reinforcement with this guy! I have tried to get into CA, Doug Mills etc..however found some VERY appauling aspects to their overall approach and they use negative reinforcement almost exlusively. People like Stacy Westfall and John Lyons I would like to learn more from I met Josh Lyons who was very kind and willing to help and Stacy's bond with Roxy is of course something that I would love to have but I havent had the time to dive into much of their approaches yet. Traditional horseman can critizise natural horsemanship till the cows come home as it in a generalization wouldn't be perfect of course just as 'classical dressage' would be FAR from perfect if one were to generalize so I don't know why anyone would choose to impose a blanket statment that is just a generalization onto something that they do not know all about. I for ex would say I do not know all about classical dressage so while there are methods (Rollkur) and people using methods (ANKY) that I abhore I would never make right off classical dressage as a whole. Which is exaclty what alot of non-nh ppl do to us unfortunately. But if they choose to be narrow minded that is their choice it just means that they are choosing to be deficient in knowlege that would likely strenghten their bond with their horse and probably their horse's quality of life! There are of course flaws within the nh genre such as rollkur (CA) and promoting shock collars (again CA) and imho the rope yanking or "bumping" that alot of nh trainers use yes even the trainers I follow such as JF and Parelli which I why I omit what I see as flaws from my particular training approach. So there you have it! No training method or genre or trainer is perfect and we can all learn something from ANY trainer/method (sometimes positive things and sometimes what to avoid lol). However speaking of perfection Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling comes the closest I have ever found and if you haven't already checked him out I urge you to do so 
Thats my two cents as someone who has been riding since I was six and has researched almost every training method under the sun lol and who with my previous mare rode her bridless and bareback and had the strongest bond I could imagine. This is a mare who before me was a nightmare on trails, would rear and managed to get the bridle off the middle of a show :shock: lol 
Remember...critical thinking is great but generalizing is ignorant!


----------



## tinyliny

Ride the sky,

I am sure you have a lot of good points to make, but with all of them on one contiguous block (without paragraph breaks) it becomes a bit of a chore to find them.


----------



## To ride the sky

Ok here I fixed it 

To me it doesn't matter what human created title we give to a style of training I don't like to approach things with a preconcieved notion of what it will be. The main problem tends to be that people jump on a band wagon with out knowing all about it! 

I myself am open to looking into any method and use various and follow various trainers methods. Such as Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (Who is the absolute top imho),Jonathan Field, most of the Parelli 'program' lol with the exception of a few aspects. As well as Mike Kevil who knocked me off my feet with the amazing bond he managed to form with the horse he was assigned at a colt starting challenge. He was super calm and gentle and there is no such thing as negative reinforcement with this guy! 

I have tried to get into CA, Doug Mills etc..however found some VERY appauling aspects to their overall approach and they use negative reinforcement almost exlusively. People like Stacy Westfall and John Lyons I would like to learn more from I met Josh Lyons who was very kind and willing to help and Stacy's bond with Roxy is of course something that I would love to have. However I havent had the time to dive into much of their approaches yet. 

Traditional horseman can critizise natural horsemanship till the cows come home. In a generalization nh wouldn't be perfect of course just as 'classical dressage' would be FAR from perfect if one were to generalize. I don't know why anyone would choose to impose a blanket statment that is just a generalization onto something that they do not know all about. 
I for ex do not know all about classical dressage. So while there are methods (Rollkur) and people using methods (ANKY) that I abhore I would never wright off classical dressage as a whole. 
This is exaclty what alot of non-nh ppl do to us unfortunately. But if they choose to be narrow minded that is their choice it just means that they are choosing to be deficient in knowlege that would likely strenghten their bond with their horse and probably their horse's quality of life! 

There are of course flaws within the nh genre such as rollkur (CA) and promoting shock collars (again CA) and imho the rope yanking or "bumping" that alot of nh trainers use yes even the trainers I follow such as JF and Parelli which I why I omit what I see as flaws from my particular training approach. 

So there you have it! No training method or genre or trainer is perfect and we can all learn something from ANY trainer/method (sometimes positive things and sometimes what to avoid lol). However speaking of perfection Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling comes the closest I have ever found and if you haven't already checked him out I urge you to do so 

That's my two cents as someone who has been riding since I was six and has researched almost every training method under the sun lol and who with my previous mare rode her bridless and bareback and had the strongest bond I could imagine. This is a mare who before me was a nightmare on trails, would rear and managed to get the bridle off the middle of a show :shock: lol 

Remember...critical thinking is great but generalizing is ignorant!


----------



## goodhrs

bsms said:


> Not all cowboys are idiots, and not all NH trainers are. But you can find idiots and jerks among both...


 I completly agree.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

*Faith and the Horse*

This thread has attracted an amazing number on posts from third parties. Looking back over it I find it hard to come to a common theme but a lot of regular members seemingly have subscribed to it. If I have to write a short precis it would be: 
“The Natural Horsemanship concept of training horses has become over commercialised“

What no contributor has yet made plain is that the CAs, PPs, TDs & MRs in this world are directing their efforts not at a horse but to the owner of the horse who actually spends the Dollars and the Pounds. The well known gurus are professional disciples, in teaching the way of the horse. In the old days we might have said: “They are spreading the Good Word“. And just like those preachers of days gone by, the collection plate was passed around at the end of the service. That’s how the gurus earn their living
Their audience is amazingly varied as can be witnessed by belonging to this Horse Forum. There are young women still learning to ride at a riding centre, teenagers wanting to improve their performance, mum and daughter combos with a family pet, working cowboys and bent knarled old horseman who have been with horses for all of their lives. There are even ageing male oddballs like myself. Itcould be said that this Forum is a ’broad church’. There is a common bond - the horse.

However not all horses are the same, not all people are the same. The reasons for keeping a horse vary dramatically. But we do have a tendency to ’congregate’ with those horse owners who have a similar philosophy as to how a human and an equine should come together for their mutual benefit.

Many of us then seek to identify ourselves. The cowboy wears his hat, the young teenager wears her fancy breeches, the horse lover wears her green welly boots, the young learner wears her riding hat.
My wife bought a safety riding hat with a brand name in big letters stamped on it’s brim for all to see. Just like the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Sikhs, who all wear traditional designs of head covering to mark their membership of a faith and their acceptance of its philosophy.

The successful professional horsemaster eventually hires a marketing manager. The trainer morphs into a brand. The objective is to fill the seats at the demonstrations where exhibitions of horsemanship will be given. At the event every opportunity will be made to sign up the believers either by joining the club or by buying a piece of riding equipment. The purchaser then displays publicly that badge of membership, that marker that he/she has attended the course. They have become a ‘follower’ of a disciple. When speaking with fellow horse owner/riders, they will mention the name of their ‘guru’ so as to check for compatibility with whom they are talking. 

The answer to the original OP - is that like much in this twenty first century it is possible to ‘market’ goods by manipulating ‘image‘. The gurus aren’t so much schooling the horse, they are marketing to the owner of the horse in order to earn a living. The system won’t go away, as it gives comfort to the horse owner/rider struggling to absorb the knowledge of how to live with 600 kilos of wilful horse flesh.

Incidentally I, a declared agnostic, wear a flat cap, not because I strictly follow the tenets of Monty Roberts but because I have a bald head which freezes in the winter and peels in the summer.


----------



## Eclipse295

I have a policy. 

I am NOT Anti-Bit
I am NOT Anti-Natural Horsemanship
I am NOT Anti-competition
I am NOT Anti-gaited horses
I am NOT Anti-rodeo

I AM Anti-STUPID! 

I mean if one of my horses does something wrong I am NOT going to beat the crap out of it. and I am NOT going to just ignore it. I am going to tell it in terms that it understands that that behavior is not acceptable. I mean if a horse steps out of line in a herd the alpha isn't going to lightly tap it or say "no" it is going to kick it, rear and strike at it or bite it. I usually cary a dressage whip with me, 1. we have a lot of pesky dogs around here who have probably never seen a horse and 2. if the horse misbehaves I will correct it. even if it is just waving the whip at it(usually a warning) 

I plan on training my mare's using clicker training, and teaching them a few tricks. But only because I find it intriguing and would like to see if it works and what the outcome is, not because some random person with a label/dvd/stick w/ string on end/pick your favorite told me to.


----------



## Buckcherry

OK I don't really get why people always have to bash NH. Just because you grew up with one method and it seemed to work well for your horse doesn't mean that its the only way. And it doesn't mean the some other technique might get a better result. But some people are so closed in a box they aren't willing to try something different because they think it's pointless and silly looking. 

What is wrong with people wanted a to broaded their horizons and learn a new way. Yes they definatly do try to sell their products, but who wouldn't. 

I sort of thought the same things about the NH people before I sent my horse to a CA trainer and was amazed at the results. She turned my 2yr old unhandled, crazy colt into a well behaved very responsive horse. And now I'm doing it with my OTTB and he's responding very nicely also. I do believe that this method can work on any horse if done properly. I've seen a lot of horses trained this way and they have all turned out great. I think some people are to prideful to admit that another technique might work.


People like CA, parelli, chris cox and other NH because it works and is easy to understand. There is nothing wrong with that. It's over marketed yes, but not false advertising because it works if you follow the method.


----------



## kiwigirl

I think it is wrong to attribute any method as right of wrong. At the end of the day the person who has to be made accountable for the handling of a horse is the person doing the handling. An inexperienced person with no horse sense will never be able to get the best out of a horse no matter what method is utilized. Lets face it an EXPERIENCED person with no horse sense can be detrimental to a horse. An individual with great feel, good timing and good instincts can use any tool to teach a horse. 

Great feel, good timing and good instincts can only be achieved with time and a willingness to learn. As Doe pointed out in order to begin to understand horses you must be willing to ask questions. Why did my horse do that, why that reaction, why didn't that work? And most importantly What can I do differently to get a better result.

My personal bug bear with boxed NH formulas is that people keep doing the same thing over and over with the same negative result. Inexperienced horse handlers think that the onus is on the horse to understand what is expected of it because said person is doing exactly what the dvd has shown them to do. Therefore the horse is stubborn, fearful, abused, in pain or what ever excuse, rather than any accountability for the fact that the person DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE.


----------



## elnaturel

Barry Godden said:


> This thread has attracted an amazing number on posts from third parties. Looking back over it I find it hard to come to a common theme but a lot of regular members seemingly have subscribed to it. If I have to write a short precis it would be:
> “The Natural Horsemanship concept of training horses has become over commercialised“
> 
> What no contributor has yet made plain is that the CAs, PPs, TDs & MRs in this world are directing their efforts not at a horse but to the owner of the horse who actually spends the Dollars and the Pounds. The well known gurus are professional disciples, in teaching the way of the horse. In the old days we might have said: “They are spreading the Good Word“. And just like those preachers of days gone by, the collection plate was passed around at the end of the service. That’s how the gurus earn their living
> Their audience is amazingly varied as can be witnessed by belonging to this Horse Forum.
> However not all horses are the same, not all people are the same. The reasons for keeping a horse vary dramatically. But we do have a tendency to ’congregate’ with those horse owners who have a similar philosophy as to how a human and an equine should come together for their mutual benefit.
> 
> Many of us then seek to identify ourselves. The cowboy wears his hat, the young teenager wears her fancy breeches, the horse lover wears her green welly boots, the young learner wears her riding hat.
> 
> The successful professional horsemaster eventually hires a marketing manager. The trainer morphs into a brand. The objective is to fill the seats at the demonstrations where exhibitions of horsemanship will be given. At the event every opportunity will be made to sign up the believers either by joining the club or by buying a piece of riding equipment. The purchaser then displays publicly that badge of membership, that marker that he/she has attended the course. They have become a ‘follower’ of a disciple. When speaking with fellow horse owner/riders, they will mention the name of their ‘guru’ so as to check for compatibility with whom they are talking.
> 
> The answer to the original OP - is that like much in this twenty first century it is possible to ‘market’ goods by manipulating ‘image‘. The gurus aren’t so much schooling the horse, they are marketing to the owner of the horse in order to earn a living. The system won’t go away, as it gives comfort to the horse owner/rider struggling to absorb the knowledge of how to live with 600 kilos of wilful horse flesh.
> 
> .


I am not much of a horse person, but I have been watching the horse shows on youtube, I dont see the difference between the people that are into showing their horse and the natural horse people


----------



## Speed Racer

elnaturel said:


> I am not much of a horse person, but I have been watching the horse shows on youtube, I dont see the difference between the people that are into showing their horse and the natural horse people


You don't? The difference is that people who regularly show generally_ ride_ their horses, whereas certain NH advocates never actually get into the saddle. All their time is spent playing 'games' and buying silly, useless 'tools' that their guru has said they need.


----------



## rlcarnes

elnaturel said:


> I am not much of a horse person, but I have been watching the horse shows on youtube, I dont see the difference between the people that are into showing their horse and the natural horse people


There is a HUGH difference. They are kind of at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Usually show people are very correct in everything- seat legs, hands everything. while NH people usually (from my experience- and I have done NH) are much more relaxed and are not as correct according to show regulations and the show norm. NH can be better for a horse to move just for pleasure but to be competitive in the ring you have to be correct or you will get laughed out of the arena.


----------



## Buckcherry

> NH advocates never actually get into the saddle. All their time is spent playing 'games' and buying silly, useless 'tools' that their guru has said they need.


This couldn't be more false. Obviously from a person who has never stepped out of their box and tried a different method. Or you would understand what it's all about


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Buckcherry said:


> This couldn't be more false. Obviously from a person who has never stepped out of their box and tried a different method. Or you would understand what it's all about


You can spew this all you want. 

The irony to me is that I live with someone who lessons/trains with a real live trainer who does incorporate some NH stuff in his training. Even that trainer says that the NH guru he follows the most is only something to use as another tool in his tool box.

So, just because we do not fall for a guru does not mean we know nothing about them.


----------



## Speed Racer

I said _CERTAIN_ NH advocates, not all. Please do not quote only a part of what I said, and then try to twist my words. :?

You know nothing about me or what I have and haven't tried, Buck. Why don't you get out of the NH 'box' and try something different yourself?

I remember PP_ before_ he was all smoke, mirrors, and circus side shows, so I have a pretty good basis from which to compare. Can you say the same?

Any good horse person knows to take things from different sources, and incorporate them into their training toolbox. No ONE way is the Truth, the Light, and the Only True Path, which unfortunately certain NH gurus DO spout.


----------



## Buckcherry

So much anger....

I never ment that everyone had to use the same method and that it should work on everyone and their horse. Im just saying why do we have to keep bashing NH because you don't agree with it or understand it.

It's like telling someone that they are wrong for believing a different religion from yours. 

Everyone rides their horses differently and therefore trains their horses differently. You keep saying that everyone needs to take parts from different techniques but when someone says that NH really works for them you feel the need to make them feel wrong. 

Yeah so you might think the games/exercises are dumb but some people really get results from them so I think it's unfair when your making fun of a method that someone else really believes in.

And if they were just guru's then their techniques wouldn't work..... Just saying.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Buckcherry said:


> And if they were just guru's then their techniques wouldn't work..... Just saying.


Just saying....They do not work for most.


----------



## Speed Racer

Buckcherry said:


> You keep saying that everyone needs to take parts from different techniques but when someone says that NH really works for them you feel the need to make them feel wrong.


Where have I _ever_ said if something works for you, that it's wrong? Please point it out, because I don't believe I've ever stated anything of the kind.

If NH works for you, great. Just don't tell others who have chosen NOT to use it that they don't 'understand' it. I most certainly do understand it, and I find most of the games and high priced tools to be useless clap-trap. I don't need to 'play games' with my horses. If you feel you need to, then by all means have at it.

Many NH advocates (note, I did not say _all_) never ride their horses. If that's fine and dandy with them, it's fine and dandy with me. However, I personally would rather_ ride_ the big, expensive, luxury animals I own than treat them as overgrown pets.

Not ever riding a horse certainly won't hurt it, and as long as their owners aren't abusing or neglecting the animal, I'd say it has a pretty darned good life.


----------



## Buckcherry

Have you talked to everyone in the whole world who rides horses to see if these NH techniques work for them?!?!?

Cause if not how would you know what works and doesn't work for most?!?


----------



## Buckcherry

Nevermind this is like talking to a brick wall with you all..

Your opinion is the only one that matters... Ok Calm down


----------



## Speed Racer

Funny how_ you're_ the one losing your cool over this, Buck. If someone isn't falling down slobbering over how wonderful NH is, you get_ very_ defensive.

Again, if it works for_ you_ then by all means continue to use it. However, those of us who have been around and seen and experienced more than one training method are too smart to fall for any _one_ particular set of gimmicks.

My horses are trained to respect me, and I in turn respect them. The NH ideas aren't new, they're just given different names and presented as something different and exciting. They're neither.


----------



## Buckcherry

I'm actually laughing not angry at all. LOL


----------



## elnaturel

Speed Racer said:


> You don't? The difference is that people who regularly show generally_ ride_ their horses, whereas certain NH advocates never actually get into the saddle. All their time is spent playing 'games' and buying silly, useless 'tools' that their guru has said they need.


It would appear that natural Horsemanship and showing horses are both very commercialized! and isnt showing your horse some what of a game, i see many of the natural horse people riding. they both seem to try to show their skills and their horses off, they seem like a show to me. I no expert, just going by what I see.


----------



## spirithorse8

No such thing as "natural" horsemanship......what is being tauted and commercialized is 'manhorseship! Simply a repackaging of training a horse into a state of learned helplessness. Subjugation and domination of the horse in a game package. Make the horse do want YOU want it to do no matter what. The body language being spewed as horse language is simply BS.


----------



## goodhrs

spirithorse8 said:


> No such thing as "natural" horsemanship......what is being tauted and commercialized is 'manhorseship! Simply a repackaging of training a horse into a state of learned helplessness. Subjugation and domination of the horse in a game package. Make the horse do want YOU want it to do no matter what. The body language being spewed as horse language is simply BS.


 I totaling DISAGREE with this statement:shock:. There can only be one leader, either the horse or the man.:lol:


----------



## spirithorse8

Not so. The human can teach but the horse is normally subjugated to do with out questioning. Where is the teaching and letting the horse make decisions? We manipulate rather than ask. Teach and see if the horse willingly participates, that is horsemanship. If we teach and force the horse to comply, that is manhorseship.


----------



## goodhrs

spirithorse8 said:


> Not so. The human can teach but the horse is normally subjugated to do with out questioning. Where is the teaching and letting the horse make decisions? We manipulate rather than ask. Teach and see if the horse willingly participates, that is horsemanship. If we teach and force the horse to comply, that is manhorseship.


Whatever. I've been riding for 60 yrs, broke alot of colts, IMO your tree hugger attitude doesnt work on most cases. But you do what you think I right, & so will I. :wink:


----------



## kiwigirl

spirithorse8 said:


> Not so. The human can teach but the horse is normally subjugated to do with out questioning. Where is the teaching and letting the horse make decisions? We manipulate rather than ask. Teach and see if the horse willingly participates, that is horsemanship. If we teach and force the horse to comply, that is manhorseship.


I wish you would give some alternative solutions. You keep telling everyone how wrong they are doing things while offering nothing. You may very well be absolutely right but how can we know if all your willing to do is criticize other peoples methods and never divulge your own? Come on, man up and put some REAL information on this forum. If you have a better way - lay it on me! I'm open to learning new ideas.


----------



## spirithorse8

M. Roberts, C. Anderson, C. Cameron, C. Cox, P. Parelli, all like to bodily force the horse to submit and they do with their tools and with the forceful intrusion of their bodies. They yank on halters, use ropes to force the horse to move...they bully the horses....and when riding overbend horses laterally and longitudinally declaring that is how you get flex in the neck..........such BS, for the horse already has flex in the neck................

That is not to say that they do not have good things to offer because they do. However, the negative out weighs the positive and that is not good for our horses.

As for me critizing others, I make my opinon known when someone is doing things against the horse. I have alot of folks who hate what I say and do, but that is just fine with me. You see, when I work with a horse and a client, I do so with the foundation of the schooling arising from the requirements of the horse and the benefits to the horse. Doing such allows the client to hear the horse. It is not about stroking my ego, it is about allowing the horse to be your equal. "Supreme Performance Through Supreme Freedom" and that means both the physical and psychological interactions of horse and rider.

I have met alot of excellent trainers and riders but unfortunately they are not the ones who are in the print media and on tv and drawing crowds to the marketing shows.


----------



## goodhrs

spirithorse8 said:


> ....and when riding overbend horses laterally and longitudinally declaring that is how you get flex in the neck..........such BS, for the horse already has flex in the neck................QUOTE] Oh pls, spare me, look at the horse in your avatar, it is flexed at the pole, has a tie down, and full contact on the reins, that's your version of freedom?:lol:


----------



## kiwigirl

spirithorse8 said:


> M. Roberts, C. Anderson, C. Cameron, C. Cox, P. Parelli, all like to bodily force the horse to submit and they do with their tools and with the forceful intrusion of their bodies. They yank on halters, use ropes to force the horse to move...they bully the horses....and when riding overbend horses laterally and longitudinally declaring that is how you get flex in the neck..........such BS, for the horse already has flex in the neck................
> 
> That is not to say that they do not have good things to offer because they do. However, the negative out weighs the positive and that is not good for our horses.
> 
> As for me critizing others, I make my opinon known when someone is doing things against the horse.
> I have alot of folks who hate what I say and do, but that is just fine with me. You see, when I work with a horse and a client, I do so with the foundation of the schooling arising from the requirements of the horse and the benefits to the horse. Doing such allows the client to hear the horse. It is not about stroking my ego, it is about allowing the horse to be your equal. "Supreme Performance Through Supreme Freedom" and that means both the physical and psychological interactions of horse and rider.
> 
> I have met alot of excellent trainers and riders but unfortunately they are not the ones who are in the print media and on tv and drawing crowds to the marketing shows.


Thanks for replying to my post. BUT you still haven't offered any alternatives. All I am asking for is some examples of " when someone is doing things against the horse" and then some examples of " You see, when I work with a horse and a client, I do so with the foundation of the schooling arising from the requirements of the horse and the benefits to the horse. Doing such allows the client to hear the horse. "

Here is a simple one. How do you teach a horse to load on a float. Step by step, please instruct me. I want to know if there is a better way.


----------



## smrobs

Eh, Kiwi, that's a lost cause there. It'll never happen and judging from some of the things on his website, he is just one that enjoys bashing those with more success than him. AKA, an armchair quarterback.

Even though he is never able to describe exactly what his "method" is, _everything_ of his is always better than _anything_ of anyone else's. That just strikes me as a mite suspicious :?.

His "betterness" includes using chains on the front pasterns of a horse that was lazy with his legs over jumps. Yep, no force there at all :roll:.


----------



## kiwigirl

smrobs said:


> Eh, Kiwi, that's a lost cause there. It'll never happen and judging from some of the things on his website, he is just one that enjoys bashing those with more success than him. AKA, an armchair quarterback.
> 
> Even though he is never able to describe exactly what his "method" is, _everything_ of his is always better than _anything_ of anyone else's. That just strikes me as a mite suspicious :?.
> 
> His "betterness" includes using chains on the front pasterns of a horse that was lazy with his legs over jumps. Yep, no force there at all :roll:.


Yeah I know what you mean. I also had a look at the info on the web and after coming across the $350.00 spirit bridle the term 'charlatan' kept springing to mind.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Spirithorse8 is doing what so many NH followers do. Making it even MORE resistance free. Do we really need less stressful methods? Seems like every year someone comes up with a new idea to give the horse more freedom. First it's riding bitless, then bridleless, then bridleless and bareback!! Now we're supposed to let the horse decide if he wants to participate in the day's work or training activities? HaHa I don't care if you NH gurus want to ride bridleless, but we will laugh at you when your horse runs off through the bushes and wrecks you. That's what you get when 'yall let the horse make the decisions.


----------



## Oxer

^^^^ hahaha!!!


----------



## christopher

kiwigirl said:


> Here is a simple one. How do you teach a horse to load on a float. Step by step, please instruct me. I want to know if there is a better way.


floats are too cave-like. you're a bully if you put your horse on a float.


----------



## goodhrs

christopher said:


> floats are too cave-like. you're a bully if you put your horse on a float.


 Are you referring to a horse trailer. :shock:


----------



## smrobs

Goodhrs, yes he was talking about trailers but I believe christopher's comment was more of a tongue-in-cheek response to some of the things that were said earlier in the thread. :wink:


----------



## pintophile

I'm still working my way through all the replies, and though it's not really on track with the original post, all of these types of threads have me wondering:

WHAT exactly IS natural horsemanship? I was under the impression that "NH" means you're working to communicate with the horse in a way it understands instead of just jumping on its back and riding the buck out of it. If that's the case, then I would think we ALL practice natural horsemanship, at least to some extent.

But there seems to be such a firm line between NH and non-NH, as you can see even with the creation of this sub-forum in Training. Clearly, my impression of what natural horsemanship is is not the way everyone else sees it.

Basically, what I'm getting here is: Natural Horsemanship is the term afforded to those who follow a special, commercialized "NH" clinician or trainer, or otherwise you're not a "natural horseman". Is this about it?

I'm really not clear on what exactly natural horsemanship is supposed to be.


----------



## Doe

pintophile said:


> I'm still working my way through all the replies, and though it's not really on track with the original post, all of these types of threads have me wondering:
> 
> WHAT exactly IS natural horsemanship? I was under the impression that "NH" means you're working to communicate with the horse in a way it understands instead of just jumping on its back and riding the buck out of it. If that's the case, then I would think we ALL practice natural horsemanship, at least to some extent.
> 
> But there seems to be such a firm line between NH and non-NH, as you can see even with the creation of this sub-forum in Training. Clearly, my impression of what natural horsemanship is is not the way everyone else sees it.
> 
> Basically, what I'm getting here is: Natural Horsemanship is the term afforded to those who follow a special, commercialized "NH" clinician or trainer, or otherwise you're not a "natural horseman". Is this about it?
> 
> I'm really not clear on what exactly natural horsemanship is supposed to be.


That is exactly the point I keep trying to make. People get so hung up on NH or Non NH and wanting to be associated or not associated with it as the case may be that advancement and discussion of true horsemanship gets lost.

In this context I would say NH is simply any form of negative reinforcement training that is marketed as a system, and which usually justifies itself with 'this is what horses understand'.

So that includes all the Parrelli and ex-Parelli trainers, Anderson, Westfall, Monty Roberts, Cox, Lyons, Cameron etc etc etc whether they appear to be a new stick twirling type or a cowboy type makes no difference. The sooner people worked that out the better we'd all be and the more we'd accomplish.


----------



## waresbear

spirithorse8 said:


> ................
> 
> , I do so with the foundation of the schooling arising from the requirements of the horse and the benefits to the horse. Doing such allows the client to hear the horse. It is not about stroking my ego, it is about allowing the horse to be your equal. "Supreme Performance Through Supreme Freedom" and that means both the physical and psychological interactions of horse and rider.


 Your horse is your equal huh? So it pays taxes & helps around the shack? Phoney baloney on that pony. I go to work & bust my butt to feed the nag and pays it's vet bills and stick my hands in it's watertank at -40F to scoop out poop he left in there for me, and you're telling me he's my equal???? I think not, I am his slave. :rofl: But the least he can do for me is pack me around the showpen on his back & not embarrass me!


----------



## goodhrs

spirithorse8 said:


> it is about allowing the horse to be your equal. "Supreme Performance Through Supreme Freedom"


 Just WTHeck does this mean:shock:, Equal, that doesnt even make good sense:roll:. There is no way horse & human are equal. Good lord man, just physical strength if nothing else, well nothing else for that matter.


----------



## kevinshorses

Doe said:


> In this context I would say NH is simply any form of negative reinforcement training that is marketed as a system, and which usually justifies itself with 'this is what horses understand'.
> 
> So that includes all the Parrelli and ex-Parelli trainers, Anderson, Westfall, Monty Roberts, Cox, Lyons, Cameron etc etc etc whether they appear to be a new stick twirling type or a cowboy type makes no difference. The sooner people worked that out the better we'd all be and the more we'd accomplish.


Doe, I actually agree with a lot of what you say but you seem to have the habit of calling well known horsemen incompetent and wrong while not offering much about how you would do it better.


----------



## BoxT

The thing about NH is the training is only as good as the person doing the training. The NH people turn out "trainers" who are people who have paid a crazy amount of money to go take a class or two. As a general rule most of the NH trainers can't teach a horse to round and be collected. Their horses lope around with their backs hollow and strung out. The horse won't stay sound if they are ridden much distance in that frame (or lack of). Also I agree with the person who said many of the NH trainers never get on the horses back. Lots of ground work is wonderful because the horse learns to trust but the horse needs to be ridden to transfer the trust to the rider from the ground. Another point is all the "stuff" they are selling. A true horseman frankly doesn't need any of that to get a horse to understand him. They use body language and presence. This is something that can be learned but also has to be inside a person.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

BoxT said:


> The thing about NH is the training is only as good as the person doing the training. The NH people turn out "trainers" who are people who have paid a crazy amount of money to go take a class or two. As a general rule most of the NH trainers can't teach a horse to round and be collected. Their horses lope around with their backs hollow and strung out. The horse won't stay sound if they are ridden much distance in that frame (or lack of). Also I agree with the person who said many of the NH trainers never get on the horses back. Lots of ground work is wonderful because the horse learns to trust but the horse needs to be ridden to transfer the trust to the rider from the ground. Another point is all the "stuff" they are selling. A true horseman frankly doesn't need any of that to get a horse to understand him. They use body language and presence. This is something that can be learned but also has to be inside a person.


Very well put!!


----------



## Doe

kevinshorses said:


> Doe, I actually agree with a lot of what you say but you seem to have the habit of calling well known horsemen incompetent and wrong while not offering much about how you would do it better.


Kevin no offence but I don't see anywhere there that I suggest they are incompetent or ineffective etc. I am merely stating that it is all the same no matter how they want to 'label' it or what 'brand' they want to build. 

I see people who are happy to stand behind Craig Cameron because they think he's maybe closer to a good old fashioned cowboy, but then disassociate themselves from anything to do with say CA because he's a stick twirler. Yet they are both doing the same thing effectively. Until people actually look BEHIND the personalities and understand what is being done confusion and argument on these forums will continue evermore. That is my point.

That would appear to be the reason we have a separate sub forum for NH away from the standard training forum. Some members obviously don't want to associate themselves with 'normal' training, and Vice versa. This in my opinion is wrong for the reasons stated above. Almost all of what I see discussed and suggested in the main forum is the same. Solutions via negative reinforcement. What is suggested by the NH trainers? The exact same thing. It's all pressure and release, so why the separation?

There is many ways to skin a cat as they say. Some people are happy with knowing just one way. Some people are not willing to accept there is another way than theirs. Some people want to learn lots of ways. In reality there is no 'right' way. My focus is not the method or the tools but the intention behind the approach.


----------



## kevinshorses

The more of your posts I read the more I agree with your theory. However, experience tells me that I have to be the leader when I ride. Some horses can handle a 60/40 relationship and others need a 90/10 for a while. It also makes a difference if you use a horse hard enough (doing a job) to really get them tired. I find that a tired horse makes more of an effort to "get with" me and feel what I'm asking.


----------



## Doe

kevinshorses said:


> The more of your posts I read the more I agree with your theory. However, experience tells me that I have to be the leader when I ride. Some horses can handle a 60/40 relationship and others need a 90/10 for a while. It also makes a difference if you use a horse hard enough (doing a job) to really get them tired. I find that a tired horse makes more of an effort to "get with" me and feel what I'm asking.


Thank you Kevin. I agree with you absolutely. I ALWAYS lead anyhorse I am with. How I lead may be different from horse to horse, but I always lead 100% of the time. Sometimes the leadership can be more passive and other times its more active, but its always clear and unquestionable.

In terms of the how; we may differ slightly but only because of our reasons for horses. From what I understand (and correct me if im wrong) you work horses? (and I dont mean just as a trainer but cattle etc?)

If thats the case then of course that will lead to different choices than myself. I work with horses but I dont have to. They aren't a tool, I don't need them to get a job done. They are a passion and a life's study. Therefore I make choices based on a pure ideology and to see how far something can be developed, or how many ways it can be done, rather than having a simple necessity to get something done. (thats not any criticism by the way)

The internet is a funny beast. There are many people on this forum i'm sure I would get on well with in real life, and im sure we would have a lot more in common than one may think from purely reading posts.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

*The Internet is a funny beast*

Quote
_The internet is a funny beast. There are many people on this forum i'm sure I would get on well with in real life, and I'm sure we would have a lot more in common than one may think from purely reading posts._ 
UnQuote​ 
Doe, you can write that again. 
I'll share a bottle of wine with you any time - red or white?

Welcome to the Forum Just try to stay out of the mire.

Barry G


----------



## kevinshorses

Doe I think you should go help Barry pack and you both should come to the US and find your inner cowboy. We could have a hell of a good time!


----------



## kevinshorses

I do use my horses as tools and at times I have to do things just to get the work done. Sometimes it's not the way I would like to do it if I had the choice but on the flip side I would bet I use a horse harder than almost anyone on this forum and that really helps to figure a horse out. I liken it to the militaries basic training. They push a recruit to the very edge of what he can take and then push some more to show him that his limmits are mostly mental. I have noticed that horses are much the same way. I can take a big, soft, fat gelding that has been raised on flat ground it's whole life and in two hours that horse doesn't think he can go anymore. I'll pull off my saddle and take a nap then saddle up again and go some more. The turn around in some of the spoiled horses I have ridden is amazing because I ride the pushiness right out of them. You can't do that in a round pen or arena. It takes a job and plenty of wide open spaces.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Kevin - it is one of my greatest regrets that I did not find this Forum and yourself some years ago.

Methinks the three of us could put this horsey world right

Barry


----------



## Courtney

My horse and I are a team. We are not equal – I am the lead mare. We work together to accomplish a goal, but when it comes down to it… my horse is the lowest on the totem pole. I am number one. The halter and lead rope is number two, and my horse will respect those just as much as he respects me. I supply the food, I make him feel safe and I ensure he is taken care of. He is my partner, but he is not my equal. As far as I’m concerned, he can be the head honcho of his pen and his food and his ‘territory’ until I step into it and then it’s mine until I give it back. It may sound harsh, but that’s life in a herd. My horse is comfortable with the pecking order and he is confident in my role as lead mare. Whenever he is uncertain, he defers to me. When he is in a new place that’s a little bit scary, he will always stand just off my shoulder and wait for my direction. This is the relationship I strive to have with my horse. It is not abusive… it is working. We both understand our roles and we rise to them. There is not a doubt between the two of us where the other stands and in turn, that keeps us both safe, happy and constantly growing as a team.


----------



## thesilverspear

To be utterly cynical about it, I would suggest that the behaviour of all organisms, including us, is dictated to a large extent by the Skinnerian paradigm of operant conditioning. That means a behaviour increases or decreases depending on the nature of the reinforcement. Behaviour increases in frequency when it is positively reinforced and it also increases when a negative reinforcer is removed. Behaviour decreases in frequency when the outcome is punishment. You can have either a positive punishment, which can be either the removal of something the organism wants, or the direct application of an unpleasant stimulus. 

Pretty much all horse training systems I have encountered are fundamentally based on these principles, whether the systems are classified as natural horsemanship or not. How do you think pressure and release works? The release rewards the behaviour you want, which will then hopefully increase. That's why timing is so fundamentally important -- the horse needs have an idea of what he did that stopped you from applying pressure. Most good horsemen and women apply all types of operant conditioning, as needed in the situation at hand. 

I could pick every NH training system apart and find these ideas underpinning all of it, same as any good non-NH trainer. But -- as as been said here before -- it's handy as an explanatory tool for people. Talking about pressure, release, timing, feel, etc. sounds far more friendly than explaining more or less the same thing in the technical academic terms I used above.  

On top of that, I'd emphasise the importance of an understanding of equine behaviour, body language, and cognition. Such knowledge gives you the means to set up situations in which desirable behaviour can be rewarded and also the ability to communicate a reward or the application and release of pressure effectively. Improving understanding of this doesn't erode the operant conditoning at the heart of all training but it does give us tools for employing it more clearly and effectively. 

While I think I have a good relationship with my horse, we trust each other, etc (I guess you never know for sure, but all the evidence I have supports that hypothesis), I've read Skinner and she hasn't, which puts me in a position of power in terms of my ability to get her to do things.


----------



## Doe

> Doe, you can write that again.
> I'll share a bottle of wine with you any time - red or white?


Barry I'm definitely a Red guy.......or beer.....or Guinness.....or whiskey......bourbon.....er and if there's none of that left....White!! 



> Doe I think you should go help Barry pack and you both should come to the US and find your inner cowboy. We could have a hell of a good time


Kevin don't tempt me, I could think of nothing better! 

Cheers guys


----------



## Beling

Montessori meets Boot Camp at Oxford. . . wish I could listen in.


----------



## Allison Finch

Gee, I would love to join in the wine party. Ooops, the last time *I* mentioned alcohol I was scolded!! 

However....I prefer white!!


----------



## gaelgirl

Well, here is my two cents. I am new to horse ownership, having purchased my first horse at the end of February. Prior to that, I had worked in a barn for riding time throughout my high school years, and spent almost two years searching for a horse and saving money, reading, and learning all I could to be ready. I bought a CA and a PP book, and read them both. (You can skip to the next two paragraphs for the main point if you want).

Fast forward to the first time I ride Gambit (my horse). He did not want to turn right, and when I asked him to, he threw up his head and backed up or stopped. I didn't want to be "mean" so I just turned him 270* left as opposed to 90* right, and continued with the ride. 

The next time I rode him he was (predictably) worse. I got sick of his attitude, grabbed his rein down by the bit, and forced him to turn right. He slowly stopped fighting me with this.

What I am trying to say here is that the NH books I read both emphasized "being nice" over getting the job done. It suckered me in because I was new and I wanted to be nice. But at the end of the day, you need to be the boss, not the horse and you need to show that to your horse in whatever way is effective for him. 

Now, I am not saying that NH is bad, I recognize that it has helped some people and horses. What I disagree with is assuming it works for everyone and every horse, and saying that those who do not use it are poor horsemen.


----------



## Doe

Beling said:


> Montessori meets Boot Camp at Oxford. . . wish I could listen in.


Rofl wonderful!! That has genuinely made me laugh out loud.
I'm just curious as to who is who.......?


----------



## goodhrs

gaelgirl said:


> What I am trying to say here is that the NH books I read both emphasized "being nice" over getting the job done. /QUOTE] I dont know which books you were reading, but the NH training I have used never said that:shock:, it was be as firm as needed to get the job done. Right thing easy, wrg thing hard with lots of extra work. That's how I roll. :lol:


----------



## jannette

the truth is, atleast were we live,it doesnt matter wether they say they are nh or a cowboy the two things that both have in common is that there are absolute morons who ruin the name of the "group" and others that are amazing...true "horse whisperers" .....i grew up around cowboys of all walks of life...and they all have diff. ways they beleive is correct..now that i am getting back into riding full throttle i have been taking advice from all sources, including this sight , and sorting through what makes sense to me...the old way and new way have their good points...its up to us to use our common sense.....if anyone nh or cowboy told me to inflict unnecesary pain (and ive seen both parties afflict it) i would simply not take THEIR advice...we need to teach our animals our children our husbands jk...no matter what training title u put on it i dont beleive beating the creature and making it fearfull will ever work for anyone...may get some imediate results with some but no trust will ever be there...that's when u get bit, kicked, killed in your sleep jk ya get the point


----------



## Appyfreak

I have always thought of Natural horsemanship to be communicating with a horse in thier launguage, you need to be the herd leader, and in charge, or they will be. I do not follow PP, CA, or any other method. I have watched some of the videos, I am guilty of watching RDF-tv now and then. A lot of it I laugh at. I use bits and pieces of anything that works for me, and some I have made up myself. Horses can not be cookie cutter trained, each horse has different methods that will work for it.
To start with I think many of todays problems stem from the fact that horses are now a luxury, and not a part of life like in the past. 
You did not see a farmer say Oh, fluffy does not want to pull the plow today, his right brain is exploding, and he is depressed (or whatever else you mave have seen or read as an excuse to not ride, or work your horse) People have lost site that horses are animals, and they are prey animals.

I have spent more hours than I can count watching my herd interact. My lead mare, does not ask the other horses to do anything, and usually she does not have to tell them either. Herd members know thier place, they follow her without question. They know were to be, when to get out of the way. They respect her, and follow her leadership. She does not have to round them up to go to the water trough, or to the other end of the ranch.

This is what I try to be to my horses, the lead mare. I am fair, I can be your friend (as my mare is with many of her herd mates), but I AM the boss, and the final word. My broke horses are broke. I can leave them sit in the field for weeks, months, pull out, and ride without lunging, and have a good ride.
When I load them , they get in the trailer. My worst horse will get one foot in, take it out, then load all the way in. It never takes more than a min to load any of my horses. Most I throw the lead over thier back, and tell them to load, and they walk right in.

I'm not just lucky and have good horses, many of my horses have come with issues, but with leadership, and training most issues can be gotten through very quickly.


----------



## Appyfreak

Oh, I forgot the most important training tool! Common sense.


----------



## Corporal

WOW-I can't believe I read this WHOLE thread!!
**excuse, burping now while digesting**
I guess I've had my horses long enough,
I've bought/digested enough books on horsemanship,
I've tried enough different disciplines,
I've owned enough different breeds.
so...
NOW I watch and analyze every bit of advice that I read,
that I watch,
that I observe,
from EVERY trainer that wants to show me.
The ONLY NH advice that I totally disagree with is, "Your horse shouldn't be bored."
Perfect practice always makes perfect. I know. I play 2 instruments, and my horses are trained as well as I know how to. Practice is 
*BORING!!!...*but it's necessary.
Ya' know, we've domesticated all of the animals who are good at following us, like horses and dogs.
Go back to the OP. Let's just use our common sense more.
...hmmm... I wonder how long this thread will go...


----------



## Courtney

Practice is boring, sure, but a necessity to helping a horse learn the drill. When I'm working with my horse, I try to mix things up. I know he's got the attention span of a hummingbird, but I still have to teach him stuff. What I find works best to teach while beating boredom is to go through a quick refresher course and then throw in something completely strange. For example:

Yesterday, I picked up his near front and off hind foot and held them for a few seconds and then asked him to back up a few steps. Then, I led him from the right side rather than the left. That confused the hell out of him, but after a bit of coaxing, he followed. I think it's important for a horse to lead from both sides, so that's what we worked on yesterday.


----------



## Wheatermay

Just wanna add this for no reason whatsoever, but to say it, lol... Buck Brannaman is my hero! I cant wait to watch the documentary!!! 

Honestly tho, I just skipped to the last page here, lol... I'll come back and put my two cents in after the baby is asleep tonight! LOL


----------



## 3Nicks

waresbear said:


> I take it, Monte Roberts is a NH guru as well? If he is, something is amiss. A gal here who was a tad squirrelly to begin with spent $25,000 to compete some sort of training course with his "program", sorry I don't know what the terminology is. She had her horses boarded at a friends' house and I was called over to visit and watch her load up her horses in her new expensive beautiful trailer (it was a beauty! aluminum slantload, top of the line). So my friend & I (gal disputed her board bill so she was moving to her new "ranch") watched from her kitchen window to see how these 2 horses were going to load in the trailer. My friend said she watched her practice loading about a dozen times & only one of them finally got in. Anyways to make a long story short, her hubby drove the empty trailer home, & she led one horse home & then the other. I offered to help loading her horses, offer was declined, but I sure didn't offer to walk an ruly unbroke 5 yr. old filly home 3 miles. This gal opened up a training facility at a wealthy immigrant's property and began advertising & training horses. I don't think she had many clients, most people want to actually ride their horse and have them load in the trailer every darn time. Anyways her business went out of business quickly. I don't know if this attests to the Monte Roberts' expensive training course or it was just her, but it was ineffective, period.


Maybe she's just not that smart? You say she's "squirrelly" to begin with, so...? I haven't taken a Monty Roberts class, and obviously the guy runs a business, i.e., he's making money, but I wouldn't blame him or his methods for this woman's ineptitude. That's like saying, "My son flunked 9th grade algebra, therefore Mr. Wilson is ineffective as a teacher." I mean, maybe my son didn't do the work. Maybe my son just doesn't understand math and never asked for extra help. Maybe my son thinks he knows it all already and didn't pay attention in class. LOL. Now Mr. Wilson _might_ be a lousy teacher with crappy methods, but we'd need more proof than just my son's one case, especially if my son has a history of not learning stuff in school. I understand there has been some sort of backlash against Monty Roberts, but I like him. 

As for NH in general, I appreciate many of the concepts but the contraptions and whatnot don't seem necessary. I'm not going to buy a lariat, for example. I really think some people just have a knack with horses and some don't. People who have the knack can be good trainers. People who don't can really suck, no matter what method they're using. A lot of what Monty Roberts does involves this knack for "feel" for the horse. I'm not sure much can be taught to a loopy individual who is just on the wrong page overall.


----------



## Saddlebag

If you want to watch a few eye openers watch David Lee Archer work with spoiled horses on youtube that come into a rescue. His vids aren't slick and sometimes a little noisy but he gets his point across, rather bluntly at times. His vids are called True to Your Horse Horsemanship. He's had a few that would prefer to kill a person and he knows how to work with them.


----------



## beforetomorrow

Finally a forum topic I agree on!
I am honestly really sick of the whole "natural horsemanship" idea - one in particular, Parelli. 
Of course I applaud you if you use gentler and kinder methods of training your horses, but at the end of the day, all of his techniques wind up being negative reinforcement, which to us may seem different from every other technique out there, but isnt to the horse. The pressure is augmented until the point where the horse "submits" to it and does the "right" thing, where he is given a "release" from the negative. Again, negative reinforcement.
A few years back I was obssesed with Parelli and his "7 games" logic and his right/left brain extrovert/introvert charts, and his 350$ dvd and toy packages and his website (which may I add requires a membership of 20$ A MONTH to access?). Then I read a few articles and actually started to notice how my horse was getting a tad depressed by my waving a carrot stick over his head, so I stopped and we haven't been better since. I know some of his games are "fun" and work well with many horses, but the die hard advocats who try to convert you into spending massive amounts of money for a half-plagiarised chart on "who your horse REALLY is" get on my nerves.
One lady tried to convince me that spending 240$ a year to look at his website was actually "very cheap and worth it". To be honest I was disgusted by her statement as you could sponsor 2 charity horses a year on that amount of money!
In the end I know it's whatever works on you and your horse, but their whole aspect of everyone else having horrid cruel methods that "break the horse" and that their way is the "only right way" is so frustrating.


----------



## Eclipse295

I have to say something, not sure if anybody has brought this up or but here it goes:

Natural Horsemanship is in my mind getting WAY over sold and marketed, I mean, the carrot stick/Handy Stick/etc is basically a dressage whip with a string tied to the end.... 
I have met Parelli horses that were pushy, stubborn, and basically did what they wanted while the rider sat on their backs and held on with no saddle, bridle, way to stop the horse, etc. I have also met some that were so well trained you could ride them off leg and body position and cues and bareback and bridle-less Same with every other NH techniques and training styles. 

What works for one horse might not work for the other. 

My Appaloosa can be stubborn and a pain in the butt and would laugh at you if you tried some of the natural horsemanship techniques(like the "pinning the ears"), she is the kind of horse that would most likely become pushy and hard to handle. 

My Haflinger pony however naturally wants to please and looks to her person for attention and thrives on praise. She is the kind that would most likely end up being able to be ridden bareback and bridle-less with the right training


----------



## kevinshorses

Eclipse295 said:


> What works for one horse might not work for the other.


 
I think a truer statement would be "What works for one PERSON might not work for another". The vast majority of horses think the same way. They may react differently based on individual differences but if you learn how a horse thinks you can adapt what your doing to fit each horse. That is the failure of the dvds that these clinicians peddle. They show the very basic techniques and rarely if ever get into the philosophy behind them.


----------



## Saddlebag

I don't like to bash trainers because so much of what one learns, especially from dvd's is how it is interpreted. There's an old adage "What I said is not what you heard". A person should try to keep an open mind and by doing so there is an opportunity to learn. When training horses it's importante that we make our mistakes and stash it away while we try something else, because what doesn't work with one horse may work with another. Over time the "bag of tricks" gets bigger, giving us more to draw on.


----------



## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr

NH is termed differently from each person. And I think some people add elements into it that certainly (in my mind) is not NH. For me, its using the language horses use to communicate - ie pressure and release. Good horsemanship is to me always about trying to achieve 'less is more' from what you do. I don't use bits, never will now. I ride in a rope halter, I use a treeless saddle and work on what is best for my horse, not me. Great understanding of horses and their behaviour makes you better, not gadgets and harsh equipment that could cause pain and fear and force.


----------



## BCtazzie

I tried to read all of this, really, I did. what I could see was this:









What works for some doesn't for other, some people shouldn't be training any type of animal fullstop. A sell out is a sell. And for me, Equitation Science works so thats what I use and will continue to use. I don't care if no one else on here agrees with what I say. I use what works for me and the type of horses I have the pleasure/ misfortune of riding.


----------



## Kiviknon

To bring this back to page one, I'm totally for slandering the cowboy name. I've seen a good number of horses ruined by cowboys. Oh sure you will say, "Not all cowboys are like that!" And I will argue, not all people that do meth try to sell their kids on craigslist. Just because there is an exception to the rule doesn't make it right. That is the reputation they have, they can either grow out of it or just accept it. Really this applies to the younger cowboys, I think its because of a lack of experience and being able to control their horse. So, it's you won't do what I say, you get spurred! It's ridiculous, I've ridden some horses people thought were bad, and I had the time of my life.


----------



## kevinshorses

Kiviknon said:


> To bring this back to page one, I'm totally for slandering the cowboy name. I've seen a good number of horses ruined by cowboys. Oh sure you will say, "Not all cowboys are like that!" And I will argue, not all people that do meth try to sell their kids on craigslist. Just because there is an exception to the rule doesn't make it right. That is the reputation they have, they can either grow out of it or just accept it. Really this applies to the younger cowboys, I think its because of a lack of experience and being able to control their horse. So, it's you won't do what I say, you get spurred! It's ridiculous, I've ridden some horses people thought were bad, and I had the time of my life.


I think there's a real good chance you have never met a cowboy. If all cowboys were like that then how do you explain the popularity of "ranch broke" horses. Who do you think trains these horses? If a real cowboy told you a horse was bad you WOULD NOT have the time of your life riding it. Younger riders usually don't handle thier horses as well as riders with more experience regardless of the discipline. If you go to a rodeo and assume that everyone there is a cowboy you are fooling yourself. Just because they have a rope and a hat doesn't mean they are a cowboy. All it means is they know were the tack store is.


----------



## Kiviknon

kevinshorses said:


> I think there's a real good chance you have never met a cowboy. If all cowboys were like that then how do you explain the popularity of "ranch broke" horses. Who do you think trains these horses? If a real cowboy told you a horse was bad you WOULD NOT have the time of your life riding it. Younger riders usually don't handle thier horses as well as riders with more experience regardless of the discipline. If you go to a rodeo and assume that everyone there is a cowboy you are fooling yourself. Just because they have a rope and a hat doesn't mean they are a cowboy. All it means is they know were the tack store is.


Wow, typical response that I think I already covered. I guess all those cowboys I met working at ranches were just fakes. I better go tell them. As for the popularity of ranch broke horses, first a Quarter Horse is the most popular registry in the world so it wins by sheer volume, second every QH I've been on has the roughest gaits in the world so why they're so popular is beyond me. I doubt a real cowboy has the knowledge and experience on how to ride Arabs or Thoroughbreds, because the ones I've seen their philosophy is, "If it aint doing right, spur it." I can't trust the word of some country, inbred hick who thinks the right thing to do is put an animal in pain. And I would never go to a rodeo, there is nothing there I want to see. Also the ranches I have experience with are Wells and Gutterson in Weld County Colorado.


----------



## kevinshorses

Wow You have been to TWO whole ranches in ONE county of ONE state! That's a lot of experience! You're a fool if you think you know anything about ranching or cowboying. I've ridden arabs and TB's and drafts and gaited horses while actually DOING WORK and gotten along fine. I understand that you are a touchy feely "my horse is my baby" type and nothing I can say will change that but just because someone does things different than you do doesn't make them wrong.


----------



## Kiviknon

kevinshorses said:


> Wow You have been to TWO whole ranches in ONE county of ONE state! That's a lot of experience! You're a fool if you think you know anything about ranching or cowboying. I've ridden arabs and TB's and drafts and gaited horses while actually DOING WORK and gotten along fine. I understand that you are a touchy feely "my horse is my baby" type and nothing I can say will change that but just because someone does things different than you do doesn't make them wrong.


The same could be said for yourself, you aren't listening to another opinion because you have your way of doing things. I've ridden horses into combat, and didn't need spurs. And neither did the rest of my six man team. I guess that's more of that touchy, feely horsemanship the Northern Alliance does.

If I started to stab my girlfriend in the ribs with a spur because she wasn't doing what I wanted that would be assault. What makes the difference when its a horse? Because it can't speak?


----------



## kevinshorses

Just because a person rides with spurs doesn't mean that they are abusing thier horses and jsut because a horse packs you into combat doesn't mean you know how to ride. I thank you for your service and I would love to hear about any experiences you would like to share. What I'm trying to get through to you is that not everyone that says they are a cowboy deserves the title and not everyone that uses spurs is abusive. I know many fine horsemen that are about the handiest cowboys you will ever see. They ride with spurs every day all day long and the spurs have never lifted a hair on a horse. They are used for refinement and to communicate more clearly. 

I would never make a statement that all soldiers are blood-thirsty idiots because I have know one or two that are. The fathers of the natural horsemanship movement were ALL cowboys and **** handy ones at that. Most of the current crop of clinicians have been cowboys to some degree. If you step away from your predjudices and take an objective look you may see your error. I've seen "cowboys" like the ones you are talking about and from my experience they are the exception. When you start to have to use horses every day to do your job and you have to keep the same horses healthy you learn how to make things easiest on them.


----------



## kevinshorses

Kiviknon said:


> If I started to stab my girlfriend in the ribs with a spur because she wasn't doing what I wanted that would be assault. What makes the difference when its a horse? Because it can't speak?


Would it be abuse if you tapped her on the shoulder to get her attention? That is the proper use of spurs.


----------



## goodhrs

Kiviknon said:


> If I started to stab my girlfriend in the ribs with a spur because she wasn't doing what I wanted that would be assault. What makes the difference when its a horse? Because it can't speak?


I'm not sure why people what to humanize their horses. Any tool is only as aggressive as the user:shock:. Spurs, loungeing whips, crops & etc are tools. Not designed for abuse, they are just aids. Extentions of our arms & legs. JMO


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

I have to agree with Kevin on this one. I'd say you've met "wanna be" cowboys. True cowboys can't afford to abuse their horses because they are absolutely important to their jobs and way of life. There are a handful of rough cowboys but there is also that handful of rough handlers/riders in every horse sport that exists. 

I always have spurs on my boots and have NEVER hurt a single horse with them and I've ridden and trained hundreds. They are for refinement only. Rarely do I even use them unless working on advanced maneuvers such as spins. 

As far as the comment on all qh's being rough, then I'm afraid you've been on poor stock. Mine all have a trot that sits like a rocking chair and smooth as glass true lopes. I've ridden Arabs, tbs, twh, morgans, haflingers, appys, belgians and in addition to owning qhs I also own a Hanoverian. My qhs are as smooth of a ride as my Hano who was trained up to 4th level in dressage. 

It would serve you well not to make assumptions on things you aren't well versed in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr

I remember having a conversation on another forum on how you term the word 'cowboy'. Again, everyone has their own interpretations, but one thing is that you cannot and should not stereotype. While there may be tendancies and some truth in one interpretation and some in another, it doesn't mean you can stereotype the whole lot.
I do think there is this painted negative macho cowboy image out there right now who abuses his horse whilst wearing his big sharp pointy spurs, long shanked bit and forces the horse into submission. If this is the only interpretation someone has of a cowboy and they believe all are like this, then I think that's pretty narrowminded.


----------



## Jolly Badger

ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr said:


> I remember having a conversation on another forum on how you term the word 'cowboy'. Again, everyone has their own interpretations, but one thing is that you cannot and should not stereotype. While there may be tendancies and some truth in one interpretation and some in another, it doesn't mean you can stereotype the whole lot.
> I do think there is this painted negative macho cowboy image out there right now who abuses his horse whilst wearing his big sharp pointy spurs, long shanked bit and forces the horse into submission. If this is the only interpretation someone has of a cowboy and they believe all are like this, then I think that's pretty narrowminded.


Agreed.

I know the kind of "cowboy" that Kiviknon is talking about - those people (men and women) who may call themselves cowboys but they're a far cry from being good horsemen. 

They're those people who are more interested in showing off to their buddies, and bragging about "breaking" a "dangerous" horse, than building a solid foundation with the horse they're working with.

It would be like saying anyone who rides an English discipline is stuck-up, prissy, and absolutely terrified to do anything with their horse that is outside the "safety" of a riding arena.


----------



## bsms

I'll repeat something that I'm sure I wrote much earlier on this thread.

My gelding is a ranch horse. I bought him from a friend in Utah. He was called "Trooper" because he was just a little trooper who would do anything he was told. Good horse for a beginner rider, and bred and trained on a ranch.

But I wasn't going to have a place for him for a few months, and my friend let another ranch in Colorado borrow him for a summer. The idea was that he would get more feed on the Colorado ranch and they promised to take good care of him.

He came back a few months later with holes in both sides. Not rough skin, but actual bloody holes, 1.5-2", where he had been spurred thru.

In the end, we took him anyways - but it took several years and some professional training to get him back to what he was on the Utah ranch. He is now a very willing, gentle horse - with a permanent scar on his right side. The left side mostly healed, but you can still see it if you look. 

Both working ranches. One bred and trained Trooper right. The other abused him obscenely. BTW - Trooper is the gelding in my avatar. A patient, good natured gelding who tries to take care of his rider. Great for a beginner, although he accelerates kind of fast for a newbie. But he'll slow right away if the rider gets unbalanced, and his idea of a bolt is to stand still and not move a muscle.


----------



## goodhrs

bsms said:


> He came back a few months later with holes in both sides. Not rough skin, but actual bloody holes, 1.5-2", where he had been spurred thru.


 I have to say, if that had been one of mine, I would have found out who was riding him and done a few holes of my own. :evil:


----------



## jannette

Kiviknon said:


> To bring this back to page one, I'm totally for slandering the cowboy name. I've seen a good number of horses ruined by cowboys. Oh sure you will say, "Not all cowboys are like that!" And I will argue, not all people that do meth try to sell their kids on craigslist. Just because there is an exception to the rule doesn't make it right. That is the reputation they have, they can either grow out of it or just accept it. Really this applies to the younger cowboys, I think its because of a lack of experience and being able to control their horse. So, it's you won't do what I say, you get spurred! It's ridiculous, I've ridden some horses people thought were bad, and I had the time of my life.


 sooooo here is the deal....i am from a rural area and i am very country!!!! my whole family and most of my friends are "cowboys"...my father taught me to ride and i am also taking classes so i can be a better horseman..teacher is a "cowgirl" not once have i hit my horse or wore a pare of spurs!!!! not once!!! my dad would of probably wooped my but if he had ever caught me being hard on my horse let alone beating it...we believe in gentle breaking and techniques have been passed down and most of people i trust in our community also do the same...start from the ground hopefully can work out most probs. there...anyways the point is is that not ALL cowboys are roughhanded jerks!!!! i am proud of my community and our culture...again there is bab "horsepeople" in ALL groups u CAN NOT condim all of one on your absorvations of only some...


----------



## Equineeducator

I totally agree. In general if you want most of these NH trainers without the sound it is actually appalling what is happening to the horses. It is not all that respectful to the horse in most cases, and sometimes when watching I am not even sure what they are trying to teach the horse.

It has, in large part, become commercialized, candy coated, old school negative reinforcement training as the only "reward" the horse ever gets is the release of pressure.

It is well marketed and the personalities are slick and talk an entertaining talk, I think it has done a huge disservice to good horsemanship and is insulting as they often suggest that all training previous to this movement was abusive.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

Equineeducator said:


> I totally agree. In general if you want most of these NH trainers without the sound it is actually appalling what is happening to the horses. It is not all that respectful to the horse in most cases, and sometimes when watching I am not even sure what they are trying to teach the horse.
> 
> It has, in large part, become commercialized, candy coated, old school negative reinforcement training as the only "reward" the horse ever gets is the release of pressure.
> 
> It is well marketed and the personalities are slick and talk an entertaining talk, I think it has done a huge disservice to good horsemanship and is insulting as they often suggest that all training previous to this movement was abusive.


 
Well said! If you mute your TV and watch a NH trainer at work, you'll realize that most reputable horse trainers are as humane or more-so. If you notice, every time they use an aggressive tactic, they spend the next 10-20 seconds sugar-coating it. By the time they're done candy coating it, they've talked you into accepting it as a great technique!!!


----------



## nherridge

I didn't read this entire thread *tee hee*
NH has turned into a lot of bull hockey.

I do thing very naturally, but no one technique works on every horse, everyone knows that. The only thing that works is working with each individual horse. 

That is how I aquire so many training clients and lesson students. I am smart and work off of what the horse wants to give me. They all work differently. I could never stick to Parelli, or Lyons, Westfall ... anyone! You can learn things from everyone, but it always comes down to the horse. I have developed my own very successful style now.

NH has highlighted some great exercises such as a join up - but had brought in much more of this bull hockey that I can't even stand to watch it anymore. There are ever NH "trainers" who get very aggressive - thought this was all about being gentle? 

I teach with a firm, fair hand. It may not be as gentle as tapping with a carrot, but it works. I vote to go with results.


----------



## Oxer

i have been following this thread since the beginning and had no true exposure to a self proclaimed NH trainer until Tuesday of this week. I had been looking for some new ways to handle my horses spooking and she was able to show me how she works, what she teaches, why it works, and was also able to offer some other great information that would help with my horse. She had some insight on some different food choices, and she did some demo work with her horse showing me how well the training has worked for him. I plan to use her, as well as my regular jumper trainer, to make a more well rounded horse both under saddle and on the ground. To me, there's nothing better than having a team of folks around to help you better maintain your horse. Natural Horse person or otherwise.


----------



## tinyliny

Oxer, could you describe what she is doing and the rationale behind it to help your horse with a spookiness issue? I am very curious.


----------



## Oxer

first and foremost would be to change his feed... 
alfalfa cubes, senior, and beatpulp. (which she told me was all HOT feeds)
Changing him to entirely timothy hay and a simple mineral salt lick. 

She explained and showed me different types of basic exposure training, building pressure and then taking it away. Getting him to keep his mind on me when there's a "scary" thing.

i can't really give you too much detail as i am still not entirely sure how it all works just yet. She is able to manifest this relationship between the horse and the owner by helping ME understand where the horse is coming from, how i can catch it early and be able to manage his behavior before it gets out of hand. No bells, no whistles, and like hell i'm going to let this lady knock my horse around! 

i can say one thing for sure, if my horse behaved half of the way that her horse does on the ground... i would be in heaven! And i'm not talking about making my horse do tricks or all that other mess. i don't need my horse to do a bow, or to chase a ball around, i simply need him to be non-reactive. A self assured, confident, calm, mentally healthy animal.

When i start working with her more one and one with my gelding, i will let you know how it goes... and how i feel about it a couple months from now. haha!


----------



## Marecare

Kiviknon said:


> Wow, typical response that I think I already covered. I guess all those cowboys I met working at ranches were just fakes. I better go tell them. As for the popularity of ranch broke horses, first a Quarter Horse is the most popular registry in the world so it wins by sheer volume, second every QH I've been on has the roughest gaits in the world so why they're so popular is beyond me. I doubt a real cowboy has the knowledge and experience on how to ride Arabs or Thoroughbreds, because the ones I've seen their philosophy is, "If it aint doing right, spur it." I can't trust the word of some country, inbred hick who thinks the right thing to do is put an animal in pain. And I would never go to a rodeo, there is nothing there I want to see. Also the ranches I have experience with are Wells and Gutterson in Weld County Colorado.



This and other statements that you have made has to be some of the biggest misrepresentations of the world I have made a home in for the last 50 plus years.

You sir are a dude of the highest kind and should stay close to the world you know something about.


----------



## tinyliny

Oxer, 
every horse is different, but I bet in time your horse will be more like her horse. My trainer is so danged good. She makes it look so easy, but I just keep tryiing, and some day, if I get half that far it'll be something I will be really proud of.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Well this where you will see me get defensive.... the term "cowboy".

Let me clarify....

Back in Nevada when my grandfather, great grandfather, great uncles and great, great uncles- which one of them is Will James, don't mean to name drop but he literally wrote the book on it, was cowboying, it was different.
A good cowboy was judged by how tough a horse he could ride. My family made their living riding the rough string on big ranches. If you could top out a rough string and get the job done on a tough horse you were considered a good cowboy. That was even the case 30 years ago when my father in law was doing it. Merv Takus in Squaw Valley kept leg braces in the tack room, if you broke a leg getting bucked off of a horse, he gave you a leg brace to ride with, if you didn't- well your horse was turned out and you rolled up your bedroll...too bad. This is were "cowboy' came from. You had to be tough and the horses were tougher.

Things have changed greatly just in the last 30 years. Horse breeding and the ranch lifestyle. The horses aren't as tough and there is no need for it. I tell you what if you come onto on our place and go to punching and harpooning on a horse or mishandling cattle for no reason, your horses will be turned out and your **** packed!( And most likely not hired anywhere else within earshot) If you even think about roping a heavy bred cow just for fun....see ya. Now days a cowboy is not only a good cowman, but he excels at being the best horseman he can be. He also has to be smart about marketing and managing his cattle, horses, crew and land. We have a code of etiquette to live by which we take very serious. You thought golf had etiquette...oh buddy-Mr.Kivivnon, come work on our crew for a while...I promise by the end of the day you get yanked down off your horse and not asked back. 

I suggest you open your mind and educate yourself Kiviknon!


----------



## AlexS

I'd like to add that I have met many a wanna be cowboy who is not an asshat! I live in an area where riding is done almost exclusively for recreation, there's not too many working ranches out here. 
There are quite a few young men who walk around in cowboys boots and a hat when they are not riding, they are total wanna be cowboys. 

From the ones I know, 99.9% of them do not treat their horses badly - the very few who do, treat everyone badly, their mothers, their girlfriends, their wives, their children. 
They are scumbags whether they are in the saddle or not - it has nothing to do with them being a 'cowboy' and has everything to do with them being a scumbag. I know a few of those who don't ride horses too - they ride Harley's - think about how stupid it would be to blame the fact that they ride a Harley for their behavior.


----------



## COWCHICK77

And while we are on this band wagon...you want to thrash Quarter horses...really? You may think we all drank the QH Kool-Aid but I tell you what-
We use our QH's all day long and work. We travel miles and miles gathering and moving cattle, roping and doctoring calves, steers, and whatever else we ask of them and they happily do their job. We have to ride 8,10,12,14 and maybe 16 hours a day and countless miles to cover a huge amount of country, more than you have probably ever seen from the seat of your hybrid car, and I will never ***** about the roughness of gait. So go ahead and eat your cheeseburger and think about where it came from.

Frankly Kiviknon you should consider yourself lucky to ride a good QH horse and to be called a cowboy...which I seriously doubt will ever happen.


----------



## Oxer

^^^ Amen


----------



## kevinshorses

COWCHICK77 said:


> Well this where you will see me get defensive.... the term "cowboy".
> 
> Let me clarify....
> 
> Back in Nevada when my grandfather, great grandfather, great uncles and great, great uncles- which one of them is Will James, don't mean to name drop but he literally wrote the book on it, was cowboying, it was different.
> A good cowboy was judged by how tough a horse he could ride. My family made their living riding the rough string on big ranches. If you could top out a rough string and get the job done on a tough horse you were considered a good cowboy. That was even the case 30 years ago when my father in law was doing it. Merv Takus in Squaw Valley kept leg braces in the tack room, if you broke a leg getting bucked off of a horse, he gave you a leg brace to ride with, if you didn't- well your horse was turned out and you rolled up your bedroll...too bad. This is were "cowboy' came from. You had to be tough and the horses were tougher.
> 
> Things have changed greatly just in the last 30 years. Horse breeding and the ranch lifestyle. The horses aren't as tough and there is no need for it. I tell you what if you come onto on our place and go to punching and harpooning on a horse or mishandling cattle for no reason, your horses will be turned out and your **** packed!( And most likely not hired anywhere else within earshot) If you even think about roping a heavy bred cow just for fun....see ya. Now days a cowboy is not only a good cowman, but he excels at being the best horseman he can be. He also has to be smart about marketing and managing his cattle, horses, crew and land. We have a code of etiquette to live by which we take very serious. You thought golf had etiquette...oh buddy-Mr.Kivivnon, come work on our crew for a while...I promise by the end of the day you get yanked down off your horse and not asked back.
> 
> I suggest you open your mind and educate yourself Kiviknon!


If we were not both married I would be in my truck headed for Nevada right now!


----------



## COWCHICK77

kevinshorses said:


> If we were not both married I would be in my truck headed for Nevada right now!


LOL! Ahhh, I think I will take that as a compliment..thank you sir!


----------



## Reiterin

Well, one thing is for certain after reading several of these posts, is that horse people are very hateful and spiteful people towards others.


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

we do our best thanks


----------



## lacyloo

Reiterin said:


> Well, one thing is for certain after reading several of these posts, is that horse people are very hateful and spiteful people towards others.


Welcome to reality, Would you like a cookie?


----------



## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr

Reiterin said:


> Well, one thing is for certain after reading several of these posts, is that horse people are very hateful and spiteful people towards others.


 
I hear ya Reiterin! Give an opinion and if someone don't like it - miaoww personal attack!

''Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance'' - Confuscius.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Reiterin said:


> Well, one thing is for certain after reading several of these posts, is that horse people are very hateful and spiteful people towards others.


Just speaking for myself....


I don't think hateful and spiteful is correct. I may get hot when defending my livelyhood, but I would hardly call it hateful and spiteful.

Anyone who owns horses knows that horse people are very opinionated, and will defend their beliefs to the end and not sugar coat it. That is the great thing about horse people, they have no problem telling you how they feel about something. I can appreciate this given these days everyone is so PC and scared to offend. I try to be open minded and learn about other methods and disciplines. I may not always agree with them as same as someone isn't going to agree with me.


----------



## jannette

well said cowchick!!!!!


----------



## kiwigirl

Reiterin said:


> Well, one thing is for certain after reading several of these posts, is that horse people are very hateful and spiteful people towards others.


I don't know Reiterin, I have enjoyed this thread. The debate is spirited and lively, people are speaking in generalities and non specifics, I don't think there was any name calling until you jumped in and called the people on this thread spiteful and hateful. 

I'm just saying.


----------



## tinyliny

Back to the story ,. . . ..


----------



## ButtInTheDirt

I pay my trainer, but I don't buy into all of the merch that comes with it. My trainer does the Parelli stuff, but I could care less if she does any specific type because she is a good trainer. I don't do any savvy club or whatever comes with it. A lot of people tell me that I don't really do 'Parelli' training if I don't buy thousands of dollars worth of tack, training dvds and memberships. 

I do have to say it does get a bit rediculous. I want a good horse, I don't care to identify with some insane fanbase who roll around in their brand name tack. I bought a halter and carrot stick from my trainer because we got a discount, and then got one of each from my cousin. Since then we buy our rope halters, leadropes, etc from an online store that isn't advertising a trainer brand. I even make my own rope halters and driving reins. I don't think Natural Horsemanship needs to be bashed as a whole, just the big wigs who make thousands off of people dumb enough to buy it.


----------



## amschrader87

I follow CA and while I do not like how commercialized this whole industry is. I absolutely believe in his methods and they have worked wonders on turning my horse from a disrespectful hard to handle 2 1/2 year old into a horse who enjoys being worked with and never puts a foot wrong. He loads by himself in the trailer, he's soft and supple, responsive and has a good mind on him now. Before I wouldn't trust him at all. 
Now im not saying that it works for everyone or every horse but I have seen a lot of success with this method. 

Its obvious it works weather or not you think its a gimmick there are lots of people who have success with it. And that's all that matters, if it works for that rider and horse than so be it.
but I also don't really consider it Natural horsemanship. And am not a fan of parelli.


----------



## kevinshorses

never mind


----------



## goodhrs

amschrader87 said:


> And am not a fan of parelli.


 Me either, but CA, Craige C., & Chris C. have some methods that work well. I dont consider them NH either, just good horsemanship training methods. JMO


----------



## COWCHICK77

I don't think you should have to learn a new language to understand what someone is teaching! I had a friend several years back who was really into the Pat Parelli thing and tried to get me on the band wagon...I watched a couple of videos and was slightly confused because I didn't have a PP dictionary! Someone has told recently that he kinda re-did his program to make it user friendly, I don't know.

Last weekend we went to the NCHA Futurity in Fort Worth to watch the Champions Cup. (Good show...Buster Welch hasn't slowed down in his years!) Pat Parelli was walking around the trade show where he had a booth setup. He had groupies following him around like a rockstar and he was in the lead with his chest poked out like a Banty rooster!

The following day we were at the trade show and a guy we know had a booth setup across the aisle from PP. PP booth is set up underneath the huge TV screen that plays the live video for the cutting. I was laying on the couch watching the cutting from the booth on the screen but the big show was watching the PP groupies! You could tell they didn't happen to drop by after watching some cutting....but they drove from who knows where for a chance to meet PP and watch his clinic. They hung out in his booth and gave hugs to each other because they hadn't all seen each other from the last clinic.

When did this guy get God status????

Buster Welch is a forefather of the cutting horse industry-rode more horses than PP has ever seen and he was walking around there but you didn't him with "groupies". Hmmmmm.....


----------



## amschrader87

I do not agree with the whole "god complex" either. Yes I think CA is a good trainer but am I going to worship the ground he walks on? NO

I do not like P.P, I do not believe his training is user friendly. He leaves holes and it's confusing how he got the horse to do some stuff. 

Also I do not like the whole lets hold a spur in our hand and poke the horse everytime he come in my "bubble". There are better ways to get a horse to respect your space. And I don't like the "Games"


----------



## goodhrs

COWCHICK77 said:


> He had groupies following him around like a rockstar and he was in the lead with his chest poked out like a Banty rooster!
> When did this guy get God status???? Hmmmmm.....


This coming from a guy that fall off a baby on Road to the Horse. My problem with his so called games is, if your not planning on keeping this horse for all it's life, than dont play the games with them. If you happen to sell this horse, or god forbid something should happen to you, if a person doesnt play or know the PP games, working with this animal and the way it reacts to your body positioning, you would think it was a lunatic. I'm for just good old sound basic training to make a good using mount that is safe & sane if your not using it for some special discipline. JMO


----------



## COWCHICK77

goodhrs said:


> This coming from a guy that fall off a baby on Road to the Horse. My problem with his so called games is, if your not planning on keeping this horse for all it's life, than dont play the games with them. If you happen to sell this horse, or god forbid something should happen to you, if a person doesnt play or know the PP games, working with this animal and the way it reacts to your body positioning, you would think it was a lunatic. I'm for just good old sound basic training to make a good using mount that is safe & sane if your not using it for some special discipline. JMO


Lol! I forgot about that video! He didn't get bucked off...he fell off! Lol! Then he took the video down...you couldn't see it anymore! Because he got a little butt hurt over all the comments....my dog could of rode that colt. Tee hee....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jannette

kevinshorses said:


> never mind


 
:grin: sometimes the best things r left unsaid lol...


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

very true


----------



## AmazinCaucasian

I've probly said this before, but if you mute the TV when you watch some of these NH trainers, prepare to be surprised. I'm not saying they're mean or abusive. I'm saying they're doing things that you don't realize. They're being just as hard as any good non-NH trainer. But they make up soft names for it so you're ok with it. They cover it up by distracting you with sweet talk while they're getting rough. I don't give a **** if they have to tune a horse up....just don't try to sugar-coat it, call it like it is.


Now I'm probably fixin to step on toes because I'm going to talk about Buck. Yes BUCK the one they made the movie about. He's a great hand. A cowboy's cowboy. I could only wish to be as knowledgable and handy as he is. He's a legend and has helped thousands of people. But.....he does the same thing! I don't see him as an NH trainer, but he is a clinitian. I've watched the movie probably 4 times on Netflix. I like it. But I notice when he has to "take ahold" of one, he starts sounding alot like an NH trainer. This happens more than once in the movie. You guys may love Buck but you know I'm telling the truth. At one point, he was getting after a gal's horse and while he's yanking, he says he thinks as much of this horse as one of his own. Bull snot!!! Buck Brannaman will never convince me that he values that spoiled colt as much as his bridle horses. . . . I wouldn't..... Anyway, I think he's my favorite if I was gonna follow a person's training or something like that. It's just unnerving to hear the bs. I could watch ole Buck all day with the sound off.


----------



## bubba13

I saw him being pretty rough in the film. Didn't really bother me, since I think just about everyone is or has to be at one point or another. But yep, all the talk about loving kindness....BS.


----------



## COWCHICK77

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I've probly said this before, but if you mute the TV when you watch some of these NH trainers, prepare to be surprised. I'm not saying they're mean or abusive. I'm saying they're doing things that you don't realize. They're being just as hard as any good non-NH trainer. But they make up soft names for it so you're ok with it. They cover it up by distracting you with sweet talk while they're getting rough. I don't give a **** if they have to tune a horse up....just don't try to sugar-coat it, call it like it is.
> 
> 
> Now I'm probably fixin to step on toes because I'm going to talk about Buck. Yes BUCK the one they made the movie about. He's a great hand. A cowboy's cowboy. I could only wish to be as knowledgable and handy as he is. He's a legend and has helped thousands of people. But.....he does the same thing! I don't see him as an NH trainer, but he is a clinitian. I've watched the movie probably 4 times on Netflix. I like it. But I notice when he has to "take ahold" of one, he starts sounding alot like an NH trainer. This happens more than once in the movie. You guys may love Buck but you know I'm telling the truth. At one point, he was getting after a gal's horse and while he's yanking, he says he thinks as much of this horse as one of his own. Bull snot!!! Buck Brannaman will never convince me that he values that spoiled colt as much as his bridle horses. . . . I wouldn't..... Anyway, I think he's my favorite if I was gonna follow a person's training or something like that. It's just unnerving to hear the bs. I could watch ole Buck all day with the sound off.


I agree, but no matter how much of a cowboy Buck is, he makes a living catering to the type of people who are going to buy his videos and go to his clinics. Which are the people who like to be coddled through training a horse, so they don't feel bad about getting after Buttercup if she gets pushy.

I am also going to use this opportunity to hammer home the point about the "God complex"... same as I said about PP above. Buck ropes in the Californios...there is way "ropier" boys roping in that deal than him. Yet when Buck would make an average shot everyone cheered. When a lesser known boy made a nice shot....crickets....
They weren't cheering for a nice roping shot, they were just cheering for Buck...

I have watched a lot of these guys videos on RFDTV thinking I might learn something trying to be open minded, but like you said it is all the same except in the way they spew it out...


----------



## jannette

COWCHICK77 said:


> I agree, but no matter how much of a cowboy Buck is, he makes a living catering to the type of people who are going to buy his videos and go to his clinics. Which are the people who like to be coddled through training a horse, so they don't feel bad about getting after Buttercup if she gets pushy.
> 
> I am also going to use this opportunity to hammer home the point about the "God complex"... same as I said about PP above. Buck ropes in the Californios...there is way "ropier" boys roping in that deal than him. Yet when Buck would make an average shot everyone cheered. When a lesser known boy made a nice shot....crickets....
> They weren't cheering for a nice roping shot, they were just cheering for Buck...
> 
> I have watched a lot of these guys videos on RFDTV thinking I might learn something trying to be open minded, but like you said it is all the same except in the way they spew it out...


 
so i understand what u r saying everything gets all "hollywood" but some of us do need a guiding hand, if u will, to go along with our common sense to help us correct things we r doing wrong or to help us tell our horses what we want them to do...i read and watch what and who i think i can make sense of and will help me and my horses..so i guess that means im one of "those type of people" ;(... sure dont mean to be but if u dont have anyone to teach u what do ya do??


----------



## jannette

not that i am at all into pp or nh...!!!! just practical riding, common sence goes a long way


----------



## cowpony09

I will say, I think much of the horse community (not all just a large chunk of it) has lost their minds


----------



## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr

I think it's more of a case of that they havent opened their minds enough.


----------



## The Copper Kid

I'm not sure if this was said already since I'm not going to read all 11 pages of the thread so bare with me please. 

But I however do follow NH. Don't get me wrong when my horse does something out of line when I'm on him or something that could cause harm on the ground he will get a good smack to snap him out of it; but as far as his training, it has been completely NH. And I stand by it 100%. Anybody who has trained their horse this way or attended a clinic on it knows that it isn't doing whatever that carrotstick thing is... (I actually have never even heard of it. Like you said it sounds like a gimick) it is about asking, not forcing, your horse to do something and never back down from them. Making your body and its movements into something the horse understands instead of something it is leary and anxious about. 

So to be honest I'm not sure if you are bashing the training method or just the people who think that if you watch a video on it they can do it. So I'll go both ways...
For the people that think it is a bunch of bs method I have one name for you; Buck Brannaman... watch one of his instructional training videos and you'll change your mind.

For people who think commercialism is ruining it.... you are correct. Guess what guys.... a lunge line is a lunge line, and a lead rope is a lead rope. Oh and if you try to pull the whole sitting in a field of grass, watching your horse and willing it to come to you. It isn't a movie... they will just keep eating LOL


----------



## DuffyDuck

Like above, I'm not reading pages and pages ;D

If you take the basics of most 'training techniques' they all seem to follow the same lines though... or is it just me?

Show the horse leadership, tell it, don't ask it, and don't beat the bejeebers out of it.

Obviously there is more in to it, but in another 10 years there will be other ways to train a horse which essentially is the 'normal' way, but with new gimicks and fluffy words. And there are people who will buy them, and that is how they make their market.


----------



## COWCHICK77

jannette said:


> so i understand what u r saying everything gets all "hollywood" but some of us do need a guiding hand, if u will, to go along with our common sense to help us correct things we r doing wrong or to help us tell our horses what we want them to do...i read and watch what and who i think i can make sense of and will help me and my horses..so i guess that means im one of "those type of people" ;(... sure dont mean to be but if u dont have anyone to teach u what do ya do??


It sounds like to me that you don't need to be coddled and you said the key word- common sense. So no, you are not the type of people I am talking about. I am talking about the type of people who feel the need to humanize their horses and are afraid to get after their horse when he needs it. Some of these clinicians they call it something else other than "getting his *** thumped" so they don't have to worry about "abusing" or hurting their horse's feelings. And from what I observed last weekend at the futurity, these are the same kind that follow PP around like a pack of dogs. 

There is nothing wrong with watching these guys for a little guidance, like I said- I have watched them too. I was thinking that by watching different clinicians that I might learn a different method from each one. I just found that they all teach basically the same thing, but present it differently. It just seems more like a matter of who's presentation you prefer. 

You ask who I go to when I get stuck, good question. I am fortunate enough to have a husband who knows quite a bit, and I am surrounded by good horsemen at work and I am not afraid to haul a horse off to a trainer and go ride for a couple of hours. The majority of people don't have these resources and I understand that. But you would think for the money some of these people are spending on merchandise, videos and all access to the "club" on the internet every month they could go ride with a trainer who is right there riding with them and tell them exactly when they are doing something incorrectly(or correct) instead of trying to fumble with a problem for maybe a few days after watching a video. If you "get' everything by just watching a video then there would be no reason for these guys to put on clinics.

I am realizing the more I talk about this that perhaps I am being a little biased. I grew up learning a more traditional style of training so my tolerance for the B.S. that comes with NH clinicians is a little low.


----------



## jannette

cowchick77: i know what u r saying...without doubt!!! i got the basics of horsemanship as a child and teen from my father and grandad...unfortunately i dont live close enough for any real help and trying to explain over the phone is not always to good...lol they both cant hear worth beans soooo somtimes they'll go off on something that i didnt even ask about and havent the heart to say uh what ...i am very lucky though becuz i do atleast have the basic foundation that so many dont...thats why i can pick and chose with what sounds or feels write...THIS Forum ROCKS too!!!! always great advise for most part, glad i found it....


----------



## amschrader87

Im not saying anyone is but I think it's a little unfair to bash clinicians and their techniques, they are making it easier for people to understand horses and how to train them. Some people do need that help and im one who benefited a lot of learning from someone who practices CA. I took lessons for many years 10 to ne exact and didn't learn half of the stuff from lessons that I learned from CA method. He doesn't just show you how he tells you why and every exercise you do builds on something else. I think my problem was the lack of proper teaching when I was younger and the lack of a good trainer in my area.
I think its great but I don't consider it NH and there are a few who I think are wack jobs.


----------



## COWCHICK77

amschrader87 said:


> Im not saying anyone is but I think it's a little unfair to bash clinicians and their techniques, they are making it easier for people to understand horses and how to train them. Some people do need that help and im one who benefited a lot of learning from someone who practices CA. I took lessons for many years 10 to ne exact and didn't learn half of the stuff from lessons that I learned from CA method. He doesn't just show you how he tells you why and every exercise you do builds on something else. I think my problem was the lack of proper teaching when I was younger and the lack of a good trainer in my area.
> I think its great but I don't consider it NH and there are a few who I think are wack jobs.


I don't think it is their techniques that anyone is/is not bashing...it is the politically correct bull**** and merchandising that comes with it.


----------



## jannette

COWCHICK77 said:


> I don't think it is their techniques that anyone is/is not bashing...it is the politically correct bull**** and merchandising that comes with it.


 

lol well i do think that yes the NH technique is being bashed, but not practical horsemanship...that is just being forced into being all hollywooded up to apeal to all, those who have common sense and those who need to feel warm and cozy (i dont have that need)...it hurts the good ones credability to "horsepeople" however in the process...that's just kinda what ive got out of this subject....im good with here is horse, do this this that and the other thing..simple...i dont need all the lights, music, storyline :lol:


----------



## amschrader87

I see what your saying about the going holllywood crap in it is a little ridiculous. And I've found that some people say that they follow those people but they don't actually practice their techniques. They just like them cause there famouss


----------



## COWCHICK77

jannette said:


> lol well i do think that yes the NH technique is being bashed, but not practical horsemanship...that is just being forced into being all hollywooded up to apeal to all, those who have common sense and those who need to feel warm and cozy (i dont have that need)...it hurts the good ones credability to "horsepeople" however in the process...that's just kinda what ive got out of this subject....im good with here is horse, do this this that and the other thing..simple...i dont need all the lights, music, storyline :lol:




Not the technique, but the way it is presented. It is the sugar coating I have a problem with. (and the God status, but we already covered that) 

Did your dad say to you when your horse was being a ***** "Drive him around with your lead rope, make him work!" 
or was it a little more like-
"Spank his f-ing ***!"
(which doesn't equal abuse)

My 'ol man said the latter...but if I ever got caught getting after one that didn't need it.. guess what, and you probably were the same, you got a set of reins over your butt.

That is the difference, I was told how it was, not sugar coated, the punishment must fit the crime.

It is knowing the difference between when a horse is honestly scared and needs guidance or being a ***** and testing his boundaries.One of the things that makes a horseman is being able to know that difference and being able to get in his head. Any one can learn the mechanics of training- it's simply knowing when to use it.


----------



## COWCHICK77

amschrader87 said:


> I see what your saying about the going holllywood crap in it is a little ridiculous. And I've found that some people say that they follow those people but they don't actually practice their techniques. They just like them cause there famouss


I have admitted to being a little biased. If I wanted to be "fair and balanced" like FOX News... not to just trash NH clinicians, it goes both ways after pondering this most of the day. ( Being on hold with the a government agency for the majority of the day gives you time to do so. Which may explain my shortness...go figure)

With the futurity world as far as cutters and cowhorses (that I am most familiar with) have similar issues. I remember working for a trainer a few years ago and being at a show. Having a few minutes of not working I sat in the stands to watch. Listening to people behind me I realize this-

It is not completely the talent of the trainer, it is rather the people he has backing him. If I have a guy that can afford to send 5-10 colts to futurity with one trainer, what are the odds that at least one of them will make it and score well? What if I was a talented trainer and had no one to send me multiple horses to take the futurity, what are my odds of scoring well?

The next fall, who gets a bunch of colts sent to him for futurity prospects?


----------



## amschrader87

I think work is punishment for a horse and "beating" a horse because of a behavior doesn't teach anything except for your horse to be afraid of you. 
I don't want my horse to think if im bad ill get beat I want him to think if im bad ill have to work harder. I don't believe in beating a horse that is bad horsemanship. Sorry if u disagree


----------



## COWCHICK77

amschrader87 said:


> I think work is punishment for a horse and "beating" a horse because of a behavior doesn't teach anything except for your horse to be afraid of you.
> I don't want my horse to think if im bad ill get beat I want him to think if im bad ill have to work harder. I don't believe in beating a horse that is bad horsemanship. Sorry if u disagree


Perhaps I am not understanding the concept... but do you not thwap him on the *** with the lead rope if he don't get his butt around when you "pin your ears at him" and ask to yield his hind end and face you, which is a sign of submission?


----------



## kevinshorses

Haven't you read those threads that say "I can't get Fluffy to trot in the round pen and I've tried everything short of hitting him! Plez Help!!!". When the followers of the NH BS can't get thier horse to yield its hindquarters by waving a stick at them they quit or make an excuse about how the horse was previously abused or that it's a rescue.


----------



## amschrader87

Actually at this point in training I don't have to wack my horse. Because he reacts off of body language. And im not talking about one little wack/tap on the butt to get his attention im talking about people who beat the snot out of their horses because they don't listen. 
Yes I correct my horse. But there are people that don't know when to stop. 
Horses don't learn from beatings they learn from pressure and release. 
Yes CA method has worked for me but do i baby ny horses? Heck no


----------



## COWCHICK77

amschrader87 said:


> Actually at this point in training I don't have to wack my horse. Because he reacts off of body language. And im not talking about one little wack/tap on the butt to get his attention im talking about people who beat the snot out of their horses because they don't listen.
> Yes I correct my horse. But there are people that don't know when to stop.
> Horses don't learn from beatings they learn from pressure and release.
> Yes CA method has worked for me but do i baby ny horses? Heck no


But in the beginning you had to thwap in the butt to teach him that is what you wanted when you used your body language right?

Like I said above, spank his ***, but not abuse him.... 

That is my point... I am not sugar coating, simply using training at the right time to reach a goal of respect between horse and rider.

Is that not what you are doing?

I am not saying your babying him....however the words are a lil' "fluffy" compared to the the words I am using...


----------



## kevinshorses

It used to be called horsemanship (and still is in some places) but now more people call it Savvy or The Method. It's all the same stuff people were doing 100 years ago. You can read Will James books and the guy riding the broncs would take the edge off them and then hand the horses over to an older hand to finish and make into good using horses. How you get through the first 10 rides makes little difference in how the horse turns out two or three years down the line.


----------



## amschrader87

See below post


----------



## amschrader87

Ok I miss read your one post. Sorry
I see what your saying that these techniques or horsemanship has been around forever but people like Ca and pp are making it seem as though they were the ones who came up with it by using different words and sugar coating it so that its more marketable. 
Got the point and I couldn't agree more.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Sooo..... is this the part where we all hug now? tee he


----------



## amschrader87

Lol not the hugging type but we can shake hands. Haha


----------



## DuffyDuck

Just reading from you guys ;D

I won't 'beat the snot' out of my horse for no reason and there is a fine balance between respect and fear, and those who have been around horses for longer and are willing to learn will know this.

Duffy bit me the other day- what did I do? I untied her from the crossties, got a leadrope on her and gave her a couple of whacks, I then used ground work till she dropped her head and stopped using what I would describe as body language that was bolshy towards me. It took two minutes, and she stopped.

I lunge her. I use a lunge whip. I don't crack it, or whip her with it, I use it as motivation for her hind legs. If she were to come at me, attempt to change direction, reared or bucked that wasn't out off yeehaw, she would get a crack, I would send her forwards until she wanted to stop, I would then continue to send her forward.

They're big animals, even the little 13hh canbe devils if the mood strikes them, and when they know they can use their weight against you, you're in trouble,. There is no WAY you can fight a horse, you have to be clever, savvy and quick about it. Think one step ahead of the game. 

If you watch a lead mare in a field, she doesn't think... actually, I'm not going to double barrel you in the face, I'll make you leg yield till you submit.... They don't think in terms of humans, you have to establish that role of head honcho.


----------



## jannette

COWCHICK77 said:


> Not the technique, but the way it is presented. It is the sugar coating I have a problem with. (and the God status, but we already covered that)
> 
> Did your dad say to you when your horse was being a ***** "Drive him around with your lead rope, make him work!"
> or was it a little more like-
> "Spank his f-ing ***!"
> (which doesn't equal abuse)
> 
> My 'ol man said the latter...but if I ever got caught getting after one that didn't need it.. guess what, and you probably were the same, you got a set of reins over your butt.
> 
> yep!!! **** i didnt see you at my house but that sounds like a day of training me at grandads....he said "whoop his a__ and get him around hear" alot, or my fav "get your a__ in the pen and work that out of em"
> and yes if i ever was using my lead or whatever becuz i was being a bratt and impatient and took it out on my horse i would have it returned.....
> 
> and i do see some good in NH thinking however i think they miss the mark in alot of other things so ill leave that alone lol....


----------



## Jolly Badger

Aside from some of the bigger name NH trainers being put on pedestals, and all the marketing of overpriced gadgets, I'd have to say that the overall "fluff" is what bothers me. 

That includes making up gentle-sounding names for those overpriced gadgets so that people will think that using THAT gadget will be less harmful to the horse than a "traditional" piece of horse training equipment. 

For example, a lot of NH trainers turn up their noses at "lunging" a horse and convince their followers that it's nothing more than chasing the horse in a circle to wear it out. Yeah, there are people out there in the horse world who do that. . .but there are a whole lot more who include lunging as part of actual training - teaching forward movement as well as learning voice cues, balance, transitions. . . 

The NH trainers promote their "method," claiming that it's much more than "lunging" (by _their_ definition), and end up with throngs of followers who are convinced that they are so much more enlightened than people who "lunge" their horses. I guess it makes them feel better about how much money they've spent on a DVD. 

Calling something a "game" doesn't mean the horse likes "playing" any more than it would enjoy doing ground-work with a more traditional, competent trainer. 

Horses are not all about gentleness and warm fuzzies. They _do_ require patience - but not coddling. Many (not all, but many) of the NH "methods" remind me of those people who want to be their child's "friend" instead of a parent. They confuse "discipline" with "abuse," and never punish the child (or horse) for misbehavior because it might damage their relationship. 

And even those NH clinicians who do end up whopping a horse in the face, using gum-lines, or other "discipline" - try to cover for themselves and claim that what THEY did is so much better and nicer and gentler than what a "traditional" trainer would have done.


----------



## Alicia

lI read alot of the previous posts (not all 29 pages, but most) so I hope I'm not repeating too much of previous posts.

IMO all these trainers bring something to the table, you gotta take a bit from each to use what works with the horse your training at the time - every horse is different and may require a different technique (or a mesh of a couple of different techniques) to achieve the results you want.

The only issue I have is when you go to one of the clinics and they say you HAVE to use their halter, or lead, or what have you and the technique their trying to show you won't work without their products. I had a friend go to a NH clinic and she came in with a rope halter - but that rope halter wasn't good enough, she had to buy his brand of rope halter or the methods shown won't work. So after spending a few hundred to attend the clinic she had to pay an additional amount on a brand name overpriced halter. You should be able to work with what you got.

I know all clinics aren't like, and not all 'NH' trainers are either - it's an example.


----------



## Marecare

Bravado,posturing,and tough attitude is not the only approach to training a horse.

But it is for some.


----------



## Ian McDonald

I can recall the exact moment when the idealized concept of working with 100% gentleness all the time died for me, and it was watching Tom Dorrance repeatedly popping a horse on the jaw with his cane for trying to bite while being cinched. It's in "A Day with Tom Dorrance" with Larry Mahan. 

Of course, the way he did it was beautifully simple and effectively changed the horse's attitude with no sweat or dust involved and it happened in about 30 seconds. Still, every popping sound of cane hitting jaw was like popping the balloon filled with the hot air of the "everything is love all the time" fantasy


----------



## COWCHICK77

Marecare said:


> Bravado,posturing,and tough attitude is not the only approach to training a horse.
> 
> But it is for some.


True, but it is not all unicorn farts and sunshine either.


----------



## Ian McDonald

COWCHICK77 said:


> True, but it is not all unicorn farts and sunshine either.


If unicorns existed it would put the question of whether or not to let them rub their heads on you in a whole new light.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Ian McDonald said:


> If unicorns existed it would put the question of whether or not to let them rub their heads on you in a whole new light.


Bah ha ha ha! That's for sure...


----------



## kevinshorses

I saw a bicycle helmet at Walmart that had a 4 inch unicorn horn on the front of it. How is that safe?


----------



## COWCHICK77

kevinshorses said:


> I saw a bicycle helmet at Walmart that had a 4 inch unicorn horn on the front of it. How is that safe?



You have no idea how cool I think that is.....

I am going to buy it and wear it a branding....sweet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kevinshorses

It may be fabulously cool but it's not safe. What if you crash into someone else? Sure you'd be protected but you might have to clean brain matter off your unihorn!


----------



## COWCHICK77

kevinshorses said:


> It may be fabulously cool but it's not safe. What if you crash into someone else? Sure you'd be protected but you might have to clean brain matter off your unihorn!


Its all about me! 
It is up to my coworkers to protect themselves with bubblewrap helmets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## savvygirl559

'Take the time it takes so it takes less time'. Would you rather your horse working as a partner of as prey? I ride Parelli and my horse trusts me a lot more than she did before. Parelli is based on a gorses natural insticnts. You don't have to do anything to do with NH, just as long as you and your horse are both happy! And for me, it's Parelli, for others it can be something else. But no matter what, I hate it when people expect results quickly with a horse.


----------



## savvygirl559

Alwaysbehind said:


> Yes, true!
> 
> The problem with so many of the Kool-aid crowd is that they are taught from their DVDs that these DVDs and what they teach is all they need for any horse. That means most in the drinking crowd are not willing to look outside the box (of DVDs) for other ideas when Dobbin is not thriving on the run in circles technique.


I use the Parelli method and I feel the same as you do! I use the basic concepts (like treating them like partners and so on) but build on it myself and do what works best for me and my horse, not what someone else tells me to do!


----------

