# Why is Monty Roberts against lunging?



## corymbia

Appreciate info from knowledgeable users of MR or similar on why MR thinks lunging is so bad for horses.

What are the differences between chasing a horse in Join-Up (MR) or lunging it on a line? And what is the difference between the long reining MR does and ordinary lunging with two lines?

Any insights would be great. Thanks


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## TheAQHAGirl

What he means by lunging is by making the horse run in circles to tire himself out.

Join up is to get the horse want to be with you, etc.

Lunging it tiring them out so they'll be calmer.


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## thesilverspear

I don't know why Monty Roberts doesn't like lunging but I know why I don't. While I think it's a useful life skill for a horse to have, it's not something I belabour. I think as a training method, it has limited use. It's not healthy for their joints or their minds to go round in endless circles, and, because the handler is always putting pressure on the one side, I don't believe it is an effective way to teach balance on a circle. It might have quite the opposite effect. I've seen a lot of horses go bananas on a lunge line because the owner uses it to tire them out; horse falls out of balance, freak out, runs faster, freaks out more, etc. When you pull in a horse's head on the lunge line, especially if the horse is already bracing against you because the lunge line is where you let it act like a hooligan, you put it in a position that would cause every dressage instructor in the world to shout at you if you did it under saddle: nose in, shoulders and haunches out of alignment, on forehand, unbalanced. Conversely, when riding or long-reining, the handler has control over both sides of the horse and can more effectively set the horse up for a balanced curved line.

I only lunge as a quick way to assess a horse's gait on a circle if I suspect it might be lame, or if I put a total novice on my horse. It might a rubbish way of training horses, but it's a fantastic way of training riders: they can think about their bodies and position without worrying about controlling the horse. For that reason, I would train a horse to lunge and to have perfect manners on the lunge line.


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## corymbia

I am not a big fan of lunging either. I teach the horses I start how to do it because as you've mentioned its useful for lameness evaluation and have used it with low grade colic to get the GI tract moving.

I also teach a lot of kids and again as you've noted its great for riders. When teaching it to the horses I don't let them express unwanted responses and delete fast, unbalanced ways of going. Mine all end up going around pretty quietly because they've never had the chance to hoon. They can do that in the paddock when I am not around. 

I can't see the point of using lunging to tire out of the horse because of the danger of damage, esp to joints. There are better ways of getting stimulus control of nervous horses without making them move their feet at speed- whether on the end of a rope or not .

From a practical point I can't see a huge amount of difference between lunging and Join-up, though if MR is against using it to tire them out then he is onto something. I've head him say its the worst thing you can do with a horse and given he gets his horses running around in a circle- some at a very fast, sometimes panicky canter its hard to see the difference, but I am genuinely interested to learn what underpins his concerns with it.


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## thesilverspear

With free lunging/join-up, at least the horse has the opportunity to find its own balance as the handler isn't pulling on its head. Many do, of course, hoon around in an unbalanced way, but if done quietly and sensibly, it can teach the horse to balance itself on a circle. I taught all my horses to free lunge/join-up, but I maintain control of the gait with verbal commands. I want them in a nice, balanced walk, trot, and canter in the round pen, not galloping around like a maniac.


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## Saddlebag

I'm wondering if MR is against lunging because done correctly it is an art in itself and how many people are skillful at this?


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## muumi

I probably won't remember it very correctly, its been a while, but I did watch the video where he explains why... a long time ago. 

His point it basically that its bad to lunge if you have a single lunge rein tied to the one side of the horse's head only, because its then pulls the horse's head towards the centre of the circle unnaturally, and that causes the horse to brace against the bend and its body to bend to the opposite side to the circle. He argued that it caused, for instance, the horse to tend towards catering disunited. But I think, he means it just affects all the horse's joint and muscles in the opposite way to how the horse is supposed to move around a circle, which is bent uniformly around the apex of it.

I think also, he says that the way to remedy this is to 'lunge' the horse with two lines, similar to long-lining/ground-driving, so that the pressures on the horse's head to both sides are pretty equal. And then its fine to lunge! So it was not that lunging is bad, but that lunging with one line is bad.


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## corymbia

thesilverspear said:


> With free lunging/join-up, at least the horse has the opportunity to find its own balance as the handler isn't pulling on its head. Many do, of course, hoon around in an unbalanced way, but if done quietly and sensibly, it can teach the horse to balance itself on a circle. I taught all my horses to free lunge/join-up, but I maintain control of the gait with verbal commands. I want them in a nice, balanced walk, trot, and canter in the round pen, not galloping around like a maniac.


Hadn't thought of that- does make sense re not hauling on their heads. 

But then after Join-Up MR advocates long lining with the lines attached to the bit. The vids I've got of him demonstrating this as part of the process of starting babies has the horse trotting and cantering with their heads in the air and then getting a pretty big chuck on the bit to get them to change direction. As a way of teaching a horse to respond to bit cues its seems to have a potential for letting the horse run into the bit at speed during these first crucial experiences.


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## OwnedByAlli

Lunging is a useful skill for both horse and handler, and can help form a respectful relationship between horse and handler. It teaches the horse to move from pressure, listen to the handlers voice and body. The handler can see the horses natural movement unhindered by saddle or rider, they can evaluate how the horse is feeling, introduce movement whilst wearing new tack without adding complications of riders etc.

Join up can put stress on a horses legs even more than lunging- you are making them canter round at a rate of notts when you drive them! 

Longreining and lunging go hand in hand too. If you are longreining a horse on a circle it is lunging with two lines- longreining if I am not miskaten!

I understand MR saying sending a horse round in circles to tire them out is bad, but lunging can be an extreamly useful skill. Why only ban lunging when many people will drive a horse roundand round in circles when ineffectively trying to join up? Condone pointless driving, not a useful skill.


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## thesilverspear

OwnedByAlli said:


> Lunging is a useful skill for both horse and handler, and can help form a respectful relationship between horse and handler. It teaches the horse to move from pressure, listen to the handlers voice and body. The handler can see the horses natural movement unhindered by saddle or rider, they can evaluate how the horse is feeling, introduce movement whilst wearing new tack without adding complications of riders etc.
> 
> Join up can put stress on a horses legs even more than lunging- you are making them canter round at a rate of notts when you drive them!
> 
> Longreining and lunging go hand in hand too. If you are longreining a horse on a circle it is lunging with two lines- longreining if I am not miskaten!
> 
> I understand MR saying sending a horse round in circles to tire them out is bad, but lunging can be an extreamly useful skill. Why only ban lunging when many people will drive a horse roundand round in circles when ineffectively trying to join up? Condone pointless driving, not a useful skill.


No, there is a huge difference between long reining and lunging on a circle. With long reins, you can establish outside aids and therefore correct bend and balance. With a single line, you're just going to pull the horse's head into the circle and put it off balance. If I have a decent round pen (do they exist in this country?), I'd much rather free lunge a horse to get it moving forward off pressure and listening to voice and body. As I said above, when I have done round pen work, I don't let them race around at a rate of "knots" but keep them in a balanced trot or canter with lots of transitions.

As said, I train my horses to lunge because it's a skill they need to have as equine citizens of the world, and then I never use it in place of other riding or training. I only use it when I need to do something and lunging is the best way, versus the laziest way, to accomplish it, i.e. teach a beginner rider or figure out whether a horse looks lame or not. And yes, another use I forgot was getting a youngster accustomed to moving with things like stirrups flapping around.


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## nrhareiner

I am not a big fan of lunging either. Past the horse knowing how to lunge and using it for a few things when I first start then. Once they are going well under saddle I do not lunge any more. My one mare has not been lunged in so long she will do one time around stop and look at me like why are we doing this pointless running?

While there are times that lunging can come in handy on a regulare bases I do not find it all that useful.


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## equiniphile

nrhareiner said:


> I am not a big fan of lunging either. Past the horse knowing how to lunge and using it for a few things when I first start then. Once they are going well under saddle I do not lunge any more. My one mare has not been lunged in so long she will do one time around stop and look at me like why are we doing this pointless running?
> 
> While there are times that lunging can come in handy on a regulare bases I do not find it all that useful.


 My thoughts, as well. This is one of my big qualms with Pony Club. They put such an emphasis on lunging to tire, lunging to train, etc, and I just don't see the point. I would much rather train my horse under saddle and be able to ride him when he's fresh without having to run him around first. The ONLY times when lunging is useful to me are A) When I'm trying out a new horse, or B) When I don't have someone there to trot a horse I feel might be off or lame. In this case, I put the horse in the round pen and ask for a few trips around at a walk and trot.

My other qualm with Pony Club (a bit off topic, I know) is that they teach that the horse MUST NOT stop and face you when you ask for the halt. I have always been taught that the horse should turn towards you, but PC really got at me when my horse did this during a lunging lesson. They made me spend thirty minutes undoing this "vice" by making him stand on the circle when he stopped.


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## ioconner

I DO NOT like to lunge for the purpose of tiring a horse out, but it does have its purpose I believe. I like to lunge for at the most 5 min and that's usually always at a trot. I believe it gets the horse to focus on me and I can judge their attitude/disposition that day. I don't like to just go around and around and around. I do lots of changes of direction to keep the horse focused and listening for my next move. I also like to lunge for a bit when I take a horse to a new place and they might be a little nervous. Once I lunge, they usually settle down, they know the routine. 
I think it has a purpose, but that purpose is not to tire the horse to a point that it only wants to walk.


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## darlaflack

Longeing is a skill that sadly is misconstrued I think. The point is not to chase a horse round and round to wear it out, but rather to educate the horse--to the voice, learning transitions (within a gait too). I freelonge in the roundpen and horses quickly become very focused and obedient. I teach young kids and the horses are steady so they can learn the basics properly. I also do not let the horse turn in to me when I ask for halt (what is the point of that?). I go to them, stroke their their head, than proceed on. I very quickly get what some call "join up" in that when the session is over, I ask them to follow me, both directions, (no leadline). Correct positioning and clear body language is important.


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## nrhareiner

equiniphile said:


> My thoughts, as well. This is one of my big qualms with Pony Club. They put such an emphasis on lunging to tire, lunging to train, etc, and I just don't see the point. I would much rather train my horse under saddle and be able to ride him when he's fresh without having to run him around first. The ONLY times when lunging is useful to me are A) When I'm trying out a new horse, or B) When I don't have someone there to trot a horse I feel might be off or lame. In this case, I put the horse in the round pen and ask for a few trips around at a walk and trot.
> 
> *Ya I want control of my horses mind. Lungeing to tire them out is not contorling the horses mind.*
> 
> My other qualm with Pony Club (a bit off topic, I know) is that they teach that the horse MUST NOT stop and face you when you ask for the halt. I have always been taught that the horse should turn towards you, but PC really got at me when my horse did this during a lunging lesson. They made me spend thirty minutes undoing this "vice" by making him stand on the circle when he stopped.


This would be my come back to that. I do not want my horse to turn to face me when I ask for the whoa in a lunge line b/c I do not want them to turn when I ask them to stop when I am on their back. This teaches a horse to stop crucket and that is the last thing I want. You train for what you want the horse to do next. 

Like when I train the stop I am actually training the back up. When I am training a spin I am training a forward motion. So when I stop I automatically back. When I spin I automatically push the horse foward. You always train for what you want the horse to do next. So if you ask for the stop on the line you actually want them to back not turn into you as that is what you are training is not the stop but the turn and that is not what I want the horse to do.


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## equiniphile

nrhareiner said:


> This would be my come back to that. I do not want my horse to turn to face me when I ask for the whoa in a lunge line b/c I do not want them to turn when I ask them to stop when I am on their back. This teaches a horse to stop crucket and that is the last thing I want. You train for what you want the horse to do next.
> 
> Like when I train the stop I am actually training the back up. When I am training a spin I am training a forward motion. So when I stop I automatically back. When I spin I automatically push the horse foward. You always train for what you want the horse to do next. So if you ask for the stop on the line you actually want them to back not turn into you as that is what you are training is not the stop but the turn and that is not what I want the horse to do.


 This is an angle I haven't thought of, and it does make sense. I wonder, why do so many trainers advocate stopping and looking at you then?


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## Skyseternalangel

nrhareiner said:


> This would be my come back to that. I do not want my horse to turn to face me when I ask for the whoa in a lunge line b/c I do not want them to turn when I ask them to stop when I am on their back. *This teaches a horse to stop crucket and that is the last thing I want.* You train for what you want the horse to do next.


Exactly this. This is the monster I've been battling out of Sky for a year now. We finally get somewhere and then someone lets him get away with the "turn and look adorable" move and it becomes a huge problem again.

GRRRRR.

Now my little rant: If you're going to lunge, do it properly ALL the way to the end. Less is more, but quality factors in! Less done WELL is better than lots done poorly. Every time!

I lunge but I also do groundwork and I also hang out with my horse and I also ride. These activities are done in a balanced fashion. One thing cannot outweigh the others for us or it becomes mundane. Too much riding working too hard (for us) and too much downtime and we aren't working enough. 

But it depends HOW you lunge. In small areas, definitely keep sessions shorter due to stress on joints. In large areas, be sure you can effectively communicate with your horse or they'll be running about headless.


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## corymbia

equiniphile said:


> This is an angle I haven't thought of, and it does make sense. I wonder, why do so many trainers advocate stopping and looking at you then?


Its really a trained response and you as the trainer can choose what behaviour you will reward. Personally I reward them for staying out on the edge and waiting for me to come to them so I can practice transitions etc which are responses I want the horses to perform for when I am teaching the kids.

Personally I find any kind of standing in the middle with the horse going round me whether free or on a line pretty dull and I only do enough to train the responses I want or when giving lessons.

I completely agree it shouldn't be used to tire the horse out - problems related to excess energy are still caused by training deficits and these should be fixed rather than using lunging as a band aid.


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## trampis67

nrhareiner said:


> This would be my come back to that. * I do not want my horse to turn to face me when I ask for the whoa in a lunge line b/c I do not want them to turn when I ask them to stop when I am on their back. This teaches a horse to stop crucket and that is the last thing I want. You train for what you want the horse to do next. *
> 
> Like when I train the stop I am actually training the back up. When I am training a spin I am training a forward motion. So when I stop I automatically back. When I spin I automatically push the horse foward. You always train for what you want the horse to do next. So if you ask for the stop on the line you actually want them to back not turn into you as that is what you are training is not the stop but the turn and that is not what I want the horse to do.


I agree with this. I use lunging for two reasons. 1- check the horses movement and overall condition (stiffness, lameness etc.) and to tune him in mentally. There fore I don't do a lot of mindless circles, but rather half circles, 1/4 circles changing directions a lot , gait transitions and so forth, just enough to get the horses mind. I would rather "get the fresh off" under saddle because that is easier to do flexing exercises and direction changes to gain respect like I just done on the ground. If he tries turning and facing me when I say whoa, on the circle, I will start out turning him in to me THEN saying whoa and backing him up a few steps. then I will let him stand for a few seconds, then I walk up to him and give him a rub, waiting a little longer before walking up to him as he gets more and more solid at waiting for me. This does a good job teaching the horse patience that can be used for teaching ground tying, and teaching him to pay attention to me and wait for my direction. It also teaches him to listen FOR the "whoa" cue, as well as TO the "whoa" cue.I don't make a habit of "drawing "the horse to me off the circle, because that has the opposite effect by teaching him to anticipate instead of waiting which does more harm than good.


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## FaydesMom

If your horse isn't bright enough to know the difference between facing up after a stop on the lunge line, and not turning when you ask for a stop when riding, I have to say you are doing something way wrong.

My horses know the difference and I'm certainly NOT a pro trainer...


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## Mochachino

darlaflack said:


> Longeing is a skill that sadly is misconstrued I think. The point is not to chase a horse round and round to wear it out, but rather to educate the horse--to the voice, learning transitions (within a gait too). I freelonge in the roundpen and horses quickly become very focused and obedient. I teach young kids and the horses are steady so they can learn the basics properly. I also do not let the horse turn in to me when I ask for halt (what is the point of that?). I go to them, stroke their their head, than proceed on. I very quickly get what some call "join up" in that when the session is over, I ask them to follow me, both directions, (no leadline). Correct positioning and clear body language is important.


Oh hey Darla! It's Dreaming Luke. I agree completely and it is exactly what I do. I never use it to tire my horses out and just run them senselessly around in circles.


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## nrhareiner

FaydesMom said:


> If your horse isn't bright enough to know the difference between facing up after a stop on the lunge line, and not turning when you ask for a stop when riding, I have to say you are doing something way wrong.
> 
> My horses know the difference and I'm certainly NOT a pro trainer...


 
I am also going to bet that you are not training an OPEN leven NRHA reiner either. When I ask for a stop the stop means back up. Not turn. There is no hesitation in that cue from one maneuver to the next. I do not even want then thinking turn.


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## FaydesMom

nrhareiner said:


> I am also going to bet that you are not training an OPEN leven NRHA reiner either. When I ask for a stop the stop means back up. Not turn. There is no hesitation in that cue from one maneuver to the next. I do not even want then thinking turn.


Hmmm...so yours has even more training and still doesn't know the difference?


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## Brighteyes

*peaks out from behind the couch*

I like lunging. 

Not as a means to any end. Just as a challenge in and of itself. Teaching a horse to lunge beautifully is hard. Having a horse go snappily from a walk to a relaxed trot with only a little raise of the hand. Having that horse come back down to a quiet walk immediately when asked. Whoa and turn to face, disengaging the hindquarters, in response to the handler taking a step towards their haunches. Roll back and immediately change directions when cued. No pulling, cutting the circle, tossing the head, pinning ears... 

I don't use it to work a horse's body, but the horse's mind. Any movement without permission is a lack of control. Every foot step is within my guidance. (Ideally! :lol: But that's the challenge!)


Well, I'll duck back under the couch.


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## nrhareiner

FaydesMom said:


> Hmmm...so yours has even more training and still doesn't know the difference?


 
It is not about knowing the differance. It is about anticipation and guessing. When you are training a horse like I have already stated. It is not about training that maneuver it is about training what comes next. Horses are always looking for what comes next. SO I do not want them to think turn when I stop. I want them to be thinking back. I do not want them having to sit there for a second waiting on me to cue them or for them to have to figure it out. When I ask for the stop I want them thinking back up. Not turn.

Here is a video showing what I am talking about. Shawn does it better then any rider I have ever seen. Watch the horse stop. That horse is goign backwards before the horse has come to a compeit stop. If I let thengorse at any point think I want them to turn after a stop you would loose this. It is not about being smart or knowing the differance it about know thinking about anything but going backwards when you stop.





 
Also it about how the horse uses itself too. When I ask for the stop I want them thinking back. When I turn/spin I want them thinking forward.


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## Oldhorselady

I do not train professional reining horses....I do not train any horses but my own. However, I will say.....my horses stop on a dime...may not be a fancy rolling stop....but on a dime and they don't turn sideways, simply still like a statue and I teach them to face me during their lessons or any other time I am around them. They are to always wonder what question I am going to ask of them next and pay attention.

I don't lunge unless it is to teach something specific and it is controlled, not mindless circles in hopes they will tire for their ride. I find that comical since if you lunge before every ride, you are actually building their endurance and it will take longer to tire them out in the future. I believe in building the relationship so the horse looks to you as the herd leader no matter what the situation is.

If this is wrong, it works for me. My horses are very well mannered on the ground and under saddle. I have used this on horses with all different personalities and had the same results. So, how can I knock it?


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## justjump

I lunge in a lunge arena when my horse is fresh. I try to avoid lunging on a line as much as I can, but unfortunately most show facilities don't have lunge arenas. Riding my horse when he's fresh is not only tiring for me, but it doesn't accomplish much with him either. Sometimes, I think, horses need it. Every horse is different, and quite frankly riding a hunter when he's very fresh can not only be scary but dangerous in some circumstances. However, I think everyone has very good points; I'm learning a lot just from reading some of these posts 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

FaydesMom said:


> If your horse isn't bright enough to know the difference between facing up after a stop on the lunge line, and not turning when you ask for a stop when riding, I have to say you are doing something way wrong.
> 
> My horses know the difference and I'm certainly NOT a pro trainer...


That's an extremely ignorant response.

All horses process things differently. You cannot compare one horse to another fairly. My horse was taught to turn. He thought that was the answer under saddle as well. I'm re training him.

But when someone allows a horse to get the wrong answer.. right.. then it causes confusion.

It's not about "brightness" it's about communication.

The clearer you are, the better behaved and understanding/obedient your horse is.

But good for you for not being a "pro trainer" and having a respectful horse. Do you want a prize for that or some kind of pat on the back?

Pretty sure a large portion of forum members have great horses and aren't "pro trainers" too.


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## trampis67

FaydesMom said:


> If your horse isn't bright enough to know the difference between facing up after a stop on the lunge line, and not turning when you ask for a stop when riding, I have to say you are doing something way wrong.
> 
> My horses know the difference and I'm certainly NOT a pro trainer...


You are describing training results, we're talking about the training process.


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## FaydesMom

> I do not want them having to sit there for a second waiting on me to cue them or for them to have to figure it out. When I ask for the stop I want them thinking back up. Not turn.


Reining horses are not supposed to "think ahead", they are suppose to wait for the next cue. 

EVERY maneuver should be "in and of itself".

And no, I no longer ride at "open level", but I have in the past. And "thinking ahead" is what gets you a cheating horse.


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## nrhareiner

Yes you are correct you do not want a horse thinking. You want them listening and waiting on the next cue. This is why you never pracitce a reining patern.

While each maneuver is in and of itself seperate from the next. The back is part of the stop. This is how you get those big stops. The horse is thinking back as it stops. Again watch the video I posted. Watch how the mares back feet are going back before she even comes to a complet stop.

Go and watch people like Shawn Mike Stacy and so on train a horse to stop. It is all about the back up. 

Thinking ahead can and does get you into trouble this again is why you change things up. However with the stop it really is one of those places that the horse thinking back is a good thing. Again watch any of the top trainers train the stop. Most will keep saying whoa as they back their horses.


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## trampis67

nrhareiner said:


> Yes you are correct you do not want a horse thinking. You want them listening and waiting on the next cue. This is why you never pracitce a reining patern.
> 
> While each maneuver is in and of itself seperate from the next. The back is part of the stop. This is how you get those big stops. The horse is thinking back as it stops. Again watch the video I posted. Watch how the mares back feet are going back before she even comes to a complet stop.
> 
> Go and watch people like Shawn Mike Stacy and so on train a horse to stop. It is all about the back up.
> 
> Thinking ahead can and does get you into trouble this again is why you change things up. However with the stop it really is one of those places that the horse thinking back is a good thing. Again watch any of the top trainers train the stop. Most will keep saying whoa as they back their horses.


I agree with this. The back up is really the foundation of the foundation of a lot of things you teach your horse. If body suppleness and speed control is the foundation, then the back up is the "groundbreaking".


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## darlaflack

I think you will mislead a lot of "backyard" riders with all this information. You guys are way beyond in your training, showing. It's scary to me to hear that a horse should think "back" on a whoa. Novice riders (and I am sure there are a lot here) I feel should learn basic position, forward. Backup comes later. I see too many novice riders yanking their horses back, heads up, because they think the horse should learn first how to back?? A pity.


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## nrhareiner

darlaflack said:


> I think you will mislead a lot of "backyard" riders with all this information. You guys are way beyond in your training, showing. It's scary to me to hear that a horse should think "back" on a whoa. Novice riders (and I am sure there are a lot here) I feel should learn basic position, forward. Backup comes later. I see too many novice riders yanking their horses back, heads up, because they think the horse should learn first how to back?? A pity.


I do not think anyone said anything about this being the first thing you do. What we are talking about is what works well when asking your horse to stop to get a better stop.


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## trampis67

darlaflack said:


> I think you will mislead a lot of "backyard" riders with all this information. You guys are way beyond in your training, showing. It's scary to me to hear that a horse should think "back" on a whoa. Novice riders (and I am sure there are a lot here) I feel should learn basic position, forward. Backup comes later. I see too many novice riders yanking their horses back, heads up, because they think the horse should learn first how to back?? A pity.


How is this misleading, just because a novice don't understand it? I would think if a novice reads these posts and don't understand the principals it would be their responsibility to ask questions and learn. There is nothing misleading being discussed here, misunderstood maybe, but the pity is novices who don't accept the responsibility to learn and advance their horsemanship.


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## bsms

I was taught to have a horse back up a couple of steps after a stop. I was told it improved their stop and also encouraged them to square their feet at a halt. The 3 horses I've worked in a round pen did NOT connect turning to look at me in a pen with turning anywhere when stopped under saddle. Or if they did, backing up 2 steps was enough to cure them of it before I even noticed.

That said, I don't normally lunge my horses. They all did lunging during their training, but that was for weeks, not months or years.

I'll add as a novice myself, it helps to remember what people in a given sport have as their goals when using their training tips. I want my horse thinking ahead. That is part of what got me interested in riding horses. But even I want them to anticipate the helpful things...not anything.


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## trampis67

A back up is beneficial to many things a horse will do, from stopping,working on their hind quarters, to rating speed, to collection, to calming one mentally. there is many benefits of a correct back up.


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## darlaflack

I want a horse listening to my cues. Not thinking ahead of what is coming. Halt is halt, not backup. Wait for my next direction. Sorry, I should not be in this discussion, as I am a dressage rider. Carry on.


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## ropinbiker

When I am working my horses on the ground it is usually to gain their full attention and respect(if one starts moving when I go to saddle them for example); therefore the horse MUST face me(to show me that they are giving me their full respect and attention) when I que them to stop. If not, then they get to work some more....I also work my horse on the ground with a loose lead -- I do not pull their noses in as some have pointed out this can lead to further issues. This also ensures that they are in tune with me and are giving me their respect and attention.

This hasn't translated into work while horseback, when I ask for a stop - they stop straight...this may be because I stop them from both directions while doing groundwork and then must turn in from either, or it may be because they understand the difference between me being on the ground and on their back...I don't know.

I train all of my horses to "think" about backing when they stop -- mainly to encourage the horse to use their hindquarters. This comes in handy while working cattle and roping.


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## Britt

I love Monty Roberts.

I also love Lunging. I lunge my horses... not as often as I used to, but still fairly often. It's a great training tool and it lets me get an eye for their gaits and whether or not they are moving differently.


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## jaydee

*lungeing*

Lungeing should never be used to wear a horse out - it defeats the object of it. I use it as part of a horses education to understand commands prior to riding whan those commands get translated into cues from the rider - it may not the US way of doing things but its how many of us break horses in the UK
My horses have to work on a loose line so no pulling on the head. They have to learn how to walk, trot, canter, whoa, back up and turn. I wouldn't essentially go from whoa (stand still) into turn or back up as this creates a pattern that the horse soon picks up and does automatically rather than listening to me. I also start horses off jumping on the lunge before moving on to loose work.
I know nothing about reining but I'm sure that the training involved in producing horses for that is going to be very different.


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## Jolly Badger

I think there are a lot of people out there who don't really "get" lunging, and they use it (or think it's used) just to take the edge off a spirited horse, get the bucks out before riding, etc. 

And those same people will put a lunge line on the horse and chase it in an unbalanced, banking-to-the-inside, whip-cracking, frenzied, dirt-flying-everywhere circle until the horse has worn itself out to a satisfactory level. Then they get on and ride and have to fix the horse's tendency to want to speed up in order to balance itself.

I'm not in that camp. I believe lunging (when done well and with a "plan") can be very useful for developing balance, rhythm, and it's great for teaching voice commands. I don't really like lunging _exclusively_ in a round pen because I don't want the horse to "use" that barrier to guide its direction. 

I've seen some horses that have been round-penned so much that, if you take that outside wall away from them and lunge them in a larger arena or open area, they don't know what to do with the back half of their body. They're usually the same horses that have only experienced "lunging" as what I described above - being "chased in a circle" until they were worn out, but having learned nothing else from the experience. 

Personally, I don't like having a horse that turns in to face me all the time. When I lunge my horse, and I tell him to "whoa," he stops on the circle and waits. Sometimes I'll have him move on again. Sometimes I'll walk out to him and do a full walk around him while he stands there (good practice for ground-tying). Sometimes I'll pat him on the neck for a job well done. Sometimes I will change the setup of the lunge line and begin working him in the other direction. But in all cases, he stands and waits for further instruction.

Lunging is just one of those things that, to me, works well when it's done well. And it's useless or even harmful if it's done poorly.

But at some point, if you're going to use that horse as a riding horse, you do have to actually get in the saddle and learn how to deal with a horse that hasn't had all of the "bucks" lunged out of him.


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## nrhareiner

Also do not confuse saying whoa and having the horse stop and back up with disingauging the rear end. When I say whoa I want the horse to stop stay straight and at the very least think about backing up. If I want the horse to change direction or such I will disingauge their rear end. It is a different cue.


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## AbsitVita

corymbia said:


> Appreciate info from knowledgeable users of MR or similar on why MR thinks lunging is so bad for horses.
> 
> What are the differences between chasing a horse in Join-Up (MR) or lunging it on a line? And what is the difference between the long reining MR does and ordinary lunging with two lines?
> 
> Any insights would be great. Thanks


I google searched for that question and I found a section of his website called Ask Monty, someone asked that same question and here is that part of the posting. The entire page can be found at this link: 
Monty Roberts | Join Up Ask Monty


"*Question: Why do you dislike single-line lunging?

Answer: I consider single line lunging the second worst piece of horsemanship there is. Just think about it and it’s obvious.

A secretary working with a telephone propped to her ear, balanced off her shoulder for any amount of time generally gets a crick in her neck and a backache. Hang the weight of even a light long line on one side of y our horse’s head for any amount of time and it will affect how the horse carries its head, which in turn will affect hot its body travels as well – out of balance.

Double line lunging (also called ground driving) incorporates a long line of each side of the horse’s body allowing it to move in a natural and balanced manner. This is what we desire. The horse will be more comfortable and able to concentrate on his lesson and the messages your are transmitting through long lines.

Don’t forget that you can continue to incorporate your body language in the driving or blocking positions as additional communication aids. On double long lines you can teach and the horse can learn contact. On a single long line, you can non-abusively only teach voice commands while your horse is circling – constantly out of balance.

~ Monty*"


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## jaydee

A lot of people use what we call long reining in the UK as a next step from lunging to train a horse to move forwards while you are walking behind it and respond to direction and resistance from the reins - not just work in a circle. I've done both and couldn't see any huge benefit in long reining so not a fan of it but if people like that method and get good results for what they want to do then its really down to personal choice
When you work a horse in a circle using a rein off either side the horse has to also get used to having a rein drawn around its rear end and you have to be able to handle two reins and maybe also a whip which for most people is too much to deal with if the horse is totally green to whats going on as well.
I've worked horses like this in a circle and if Monty thinks that you can maintain even pressure on both reins he is very wrong
Some horse react really badly to this way of lunging with some pretty disastrous results but most will deal with one rein happily when they understand whats being asked of them. A horse should be constantly turned on the lunge - no one should be working a horse for long enough in one direction to cause the type of RSI you see in office staff and other people who work in similar conditions so I think his comparisons are well out


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## AbsitVita

Jaydee I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing. I was simply providing the answer to the question....don't shoot the messenger!


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## jaydee

AbsitVita said:


> Jaydee I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing. I was simply providing the answer to the question....don't shoot the messenger!


 Oh no - sorry, apologies. Thats not what I meant to do at all, I get annoyed with some of the stuff people like Monty hurl out so it often comes out wrong
Please forgive me !!!!!!


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## nrhareiner

I do some double reining when I first start a green horse but only a small amount. It is more just a way for me to make sure they understand pressure and it also serves to get the horse better broke as they have to get use to the lines hitting them all over and flipping around them.


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## Muppetgirl

Hmmm when I longe (correct spelling) a horse, he or she doesn't pull on the line, nor do I pull on him or her. If the horse is pulling, then you're doing something wrong.....when you use a single line to longe, the horse should be made to balance hi self, why on earth would you allow a horse to pull and race around like a lunatic is quite simply beyond the realms of acceptable behaviour for a horse, if a horse is pushing or pulling against me, then it is disrespecting me. You CAN get a horse to balance himself on a SINGLE longe line, and all it requires is eye contact.....also using driving reins can help balance a horse, but he has four legs, let him use them and balance himself.....we hold the hand of a baby to help him learn to walk, but eventually we let that hand go and watch him run.....why is it any different with a horse?

Also, just re-read one of the posts above quoting MR, haha had to laugh, there is no way while I've got driving reins on a horse am I going to help the horse balance, the only way to do that is to apply contact to his face and let him lean on me because I am on the ground, like I said a horse has four legs, let him use them....and the rest comes down to people having some common sense, of course if you long line a horse in a small round pen it's going to use the round shape of the pen to balance himself, put him in a wide open arena with no shape to it and he'll quit stumbling around and balance himself.....heck no horse wants to fall over....


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## loosie

Just replying to the thread title... Because it shows you can teach a horse a lot more in a yard than getting them to run around & then submit to you!


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