# Journey of an unhandled mare



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

There are tons of "Extreme Mustang Makeover" videos on YouTube, showing people's journey with gentling unhandled (or at least never kindly handled) horses. Watch a few of those and extract what you feel will work for you. 

I'm liking the trust-building you describe...maybe you can even start carrying a halter and a lead rope on you when you hang out with her, so she gets familiar with these objects. Then start rubbing her with them so she knows how they feel. You can also bring other objects you may want her to become comfortable with and just leave them in her environment for inspection: saddle pad, saddle, etc. 

She _wants_ to hang out with you - you're doing well.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

I have watched some, but I don't see a reason why should I show dominance to her, when it isn't happening in a normal herd. Like when I will let her run round and round how can she trust me? I have sent her away when she was agressive, but this is a reaction of another horse. I don't want her to think "If I won't stay stil, my feet will move" I want: "Hey, she is comming, hello my little human! Let's hang out together!"

Secondly, the owner tried to put a halter on her, he did it after a hour with no hearing of the horses signals. So she has the halter on now, but he won't let me touch it. With the rope same - she is comfortable with it around, but she won't let me clip it into halter. She seems scared that she can't see it under her head


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Because you are creating your own little herd of two plus one (the mother horse). She needs you to be her leader not her buddy. There is a difference between hanging out in the pasture so she gets used to your presence and trusts that you are not there to harm her and then as a curious species she starts to interact with you. You are still the leader though.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

DAY 3
We had a really nice day today! Flicka came on whistle, but she stopped about 3 meters in front of me and then lowerd her head, lifted it up, lowered... And so on. I have forgot that I'm wearing a strong green jacket, but when I offered her a slice of apple and talked to her, she came to me (I hold the apple in hand and gave it on the grass in front of her). The first big challenge for us was removing her old halter. It was given on her 2 or 3 moths ago, it was the owners attampt to get her used to it, but her head grows and this one was too small. She was really sweet, she let me touch her face gently, so I gave it a try. She was like "Ugh, what are you doing?! This is uncomfortable!" But still stood still with one foot relaxed. I was really shaking after that because this was a huuuge step for her. I have given off the halter of a horse, which was "dangerous" according to owner. I'm really really really happy for that! 
How was the weather in your country? It was rainy here, so we went into the loft. It is a raised place with 5 meter ceiling and paled by wood full of hay, actually. Horses can eat ad libitum. I was rambling again, and as I was resting in a pile, something falled on me. How was I surprised, when I saw a big horse head above me!  I took so many photos of her today. She really likes my mobile! I have never seen a horse to pose for a photo before. And she likes the sound it makes. 









The raining stopped for a while so we went out (she followed me!) and I hung my raincoat on the fence. She was adorable as she was discovering it! Yeah and the moment of day was, when she walked to my bucket with the old halter, rope, watterbottle and so on. She gave the nose into. "Flicka, no! It will run all the way down the knoll!" (I know she can't understand). She raised her head, looked at me and still looking at me, she pawed. I must laugh! She was like little child rolling the bucket and watter bottle here and there. I must buy her a horse ball or bring some old from my brother.

So, Flicka knows/accepts this so far:
- comming to whistle
- touches on head and a little piece of neck
- we started working on "back" command - did well, needs improvement
- raincoat, rustling sachet, watter bottle, bucket
- putting the head into halter - the nose part, needs a little improvement
- follows on command
- takes a step forward on command - needs more practise, it's 50% chance to do it on the first command



I agree that we are getting a herd now. But would you trust someone, who scares you with pressure? Because if I would apply pressure to her and let her run around me until she turns a ear on me and as soon as she will make a mistake and turn her back towards me, let her run again, she would be just scared and nothing else. I show her my limits when it's necessary - like when she was about to bite me, I applied pressure to get her out of me, like would a horse do. If she is too close and pushy, I push her back. I had today this problem, I corrected her two times and she got it. 
I'm just curious (and I'm really, I'm sorry if this seems challening), have you ever seen a horse in herd apply so much pressure on another member as does for example Clinton Anderson or Monty Roberts? I'm really glad about this discussion because I think that in everything is a grain of truth, so it can be benefit for me


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Honey you have to accept that you are the boss. You are confusing abuse with pressure. Horses live with pressure all of their lives (so do we). Pressure is not bad or good. It just is. If you do not have a lead rope on her while you are asking her to work then she is just playing with you. While that can be fun, realize you both are learning. You may not be "teaching" her what you think you are. Lunging should also be done on a long enough lead that she has close to a 60foot circle with you in the center. That means 30 feet of lead. Realize a 1000 pound playmate can get really dangerous, really fast. The picture above with her messing in your hair is cute. But you mention her trying to bite. Losing a chunk of your scalp would be very serious. Until she accepts her place and your rules she does not get to be so familiar or you can get hurt very badly.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Honey you have to accept that you are the boss. You are confusing abuse with pressure. Horses live with pressure all of their lives (so do we). Pressure is not bad or good. It just is. If you do not have a lead rope on her while you are asking her to work then she is just playing with you. While that can be fun, realize you both are learning. You may not be "teaching" her what you think you are. Lunging should also be done on a long enough lead that she has close to a 60foot circle with you in the center. That means 30 feet of lead. Realize a 1000 pound playmate can get really dangerous, really fast. The picture above with her messing in your hair is cute. But you mention her trying to bite. Losing a chunk of your scalp would be very serious. Until she accepts her place and your rules she does not get to be so familiar or you can get hurt very badly.


I'm talking about the size of pressure. Horses live in a herd with pressure, but how big is the pressure? Is a horse chasing another or are they just communicating with small signals like puffing the chest and prickly view? I have never seen a new horse getting up in the hierarchy by kicking or chasing another horse. The second, she isn't playing with me. We're playing together. Because she has still a child soul and she has to play and discover, that is what the owner did not. We are learning to trust each other, we are learning that when I want something from her, she doesn't have to wear tack to do it. I'm setting the norms for everyday coexistance. For example, I want her to step forward and go because there is comming a tracktor and I don't want to get hurt by spooked horse.
She wasn't chewing my hair, I had the bun for the first time and she was playing with it with her upper lip. She was like WHAT is on you HEAD?! She tried to bite me, this is true. But that was my fault because I wasn't paying attention to her ears and body language. She was never handled by human so she said that she doesn't like it in the horse way, like I was another carthorse. It is on me to teach her, that I'm much more fragile and our games have to be different. And she is gentle. Yesterday she stepped on my foot. I jerked, I made a "ouch" sound and she lifted up her foot and placed it nex to my foot. Today she really looked where she places her foot to not hurt me.
Lounging. Why on the lead? The horse can go around you and respond to commands even at liberty. And about safety, you can everytime jump and wave with hands if it runs into you.


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## ktodd (May 27, 2018)

Go watch a herd of horses in pasture, if you know what behavior you are looking for you can find it. You are correct that usually horses correct and move each other very quietly. Usually it is just a slight ear pin or a look and the submissive horse will move out of the way. This is because the submissive horse knows and respects the dominant horse.

On the other hand, watch horses be put out with each other for the first time. They will usually kick and bite at each other. Rear up, squeal, etc. This is considered a lot of pressure. This is because the are establishing the dominance hierarchy. They can't be quite and soft with each other because they are fighting each other over the top spot. 

You have to be the same way when you are training a new horse. You have to go in there and demand respect. You can do it quietly and softly at first, always start soft and quietly. Usually a well trained and balanced horse knows how to respect and respond to light pressure. A horse that is unbalanced and aggressive will need more pressure. But you always have to be fair, and once you correct them go back to being soft and gentle.

These are big animals that we work with and we have to have their respect or someone can get seriously hurt. You're pressure and correction has to match their energy and behavior. If they threaten to bite or kick I would respond with a lot of pressure and a firm correction because that is serious dangerous behavior.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

There is a saying: Give the horse the best deal you can, but get the job done. If you don't get the job done, you are merely teaching her that light pressure doesn't matter. If you follow up light pressure with more pressure until you get the response you want (provided you asked the question well and don't confuse the horse), you won't need the more intense pressure anymore because the horse still knows it's "there". 

The ear pinning of the lead horse works because, once upon a time, it was backed up with a vicious bite or a double barrel. You do not want your horse to get the mindset that it is YOU who needs correcting and guidance!!

Check out the first few episodes of Clinton Anderson's "Training a rescue horse". That mare isn't unhandled like yours, but he treats her as though she was. Clinton Anderson's methods are subject to dispute at times, but he's great in explaining why he does what he does. While you can disagree with his methods on a technical level, you cannot argue with his understanding of horses and his ability to communicate what he knows.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

ktodd said:


> Go watch a herd of horses in pasture, if you know what behavior you are looking for you can find it. You are correct that usually horses correct and move each other very quietly. Usually it is just a slight ear pin or a look and the submissive horse will move out of the way. This is because the submissive horse knows and respects the dominant horse.
> 
> On the other hand, watch horses be put out with each other for the first time. They will usually kick and bite at each other. Rear up, squeal, etc. This is considered a lot of pressure. This is because the are establishing the dominance hierarchy. They can't be quite and soft with each other because they are fighting each other over the top spot.
> 
> ...


I agree in 90% of what you say. I think the "demonstration of dominance" has happened yet. Could it be the moment, where I tried to touch her, she attempted to bite me, I sent her away, she turned her back and I had to slap her butt to get her move? This happened the first day 5 or 6 times? From that point she is responding to light pressure. I had to sent her away just once, when she indicated a bite. The biggest win for her is when she can smell me, so if she is gentle and nice, I let her. If she is pushy, I stop her and ask her to back. Is that right?



> Check out the first few episodes of Clinton Anderson's "Training a rescue horse". That mare isn't unhandled like yours, but he treats her as though she was. Clinton Anderson's methods are subject to dispute at times, but he's great in explaining why he does what he does. While you can disagree with his methods on a technical level, you cannot argue with his understanding of horses and his ability to communicate what he knows.


I'll take a look  I don't like his methods, but you are allright that he definitely understands what horses say


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## ktodd (May 27, 2018)

Drie16 said:


> I agree in 90% of what you say. I think the "demonstration of dominance" has happened yet. Could it be the moment, where I tried to touch her, she attempted to bite me, I sent her away, she turned her back and I had to slap her butt to get her move? This happened the first day 5 or 6 times? From that point she is responding to light pressure. I had to sent her away just once, when she indicated a bite. The biggest win for her is when she can smell me, so if she is gentle and nice, I let her. If she is pushy, I stop her and ask her to back. Is that right?


Yeah that sounds more or less right, if she acts aggressive in any way send her away.

The other thing is she doesn't sound like an aggressive horse, I think her "aggression" is fear based. It sounds like a fight or flight response. She feels like she can't flee, so she strikes out. You are correct to correct her, because in NO circumstances is aggression okay. But you also need to know why is she aggressive. Maybe you are moving to quickly with her, let her come to you. She might not want to for a few weeks. You want it to be her choice to come to you.

If you can just go and sit in her pasture of an hour or so, read a book or something I think that would be great for both of you. She will probably completely ignore you, if she comes to say hi let her come over but don't reach out to pet her. If you comes charging with ears pinned or anything like that send her away. She should not be allowed to approach you like that. 

I would just take a step back, sit with her and don't worry about petting her. Petting will come later once she trusts you. The slow way is the fast way.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"This happened the first day 5 or 6 times?" This shouldn't have had to happen 5 or 6 times. Once and there should be enough respect that they think long and hard before they ever consider it an option. I'll give you an example. My husband has been around horses most of his adult life. He should know better. He likes to go in the pasture and "play". What he is really doing is aggravating the horses. He sees it one way. They see it another. It can be low key and little pressure or more "loud". Either way he feels he can trust them. They are ours and they are well behaved in your pocket horses. Because of this and because of how he sees me interact he lets his guard down and doesn't think -"I dion't have an ESTABLISHED play based or even training relationship so I better be on my toes." He lets them mouth him or bump him or do whatever it is and he thinks it is cute until (twice) he has ended up in the emergency room because one of the horses bit him bad enough that that is where he needed to be. His injuries were beyond what could be handled at home. I don't know your situation but we live in a rural location and a 911 call means we have to meet the ambulance at the nearest cross road several miles away. No fun in an emergency. Been in that situation more than once. Second example - One of my draft mares was part of a heritage display at a local park. She was behind electric fence and there was signage that asked guests to refrain from feeding or petting the animals without an employee (or owner) present. This mare is the sweetest horse on God's green earth. Would not intentionally hurt anything or anyone. She picked a child up by her pigtail and had her hanging several feet off the ground swinging wildly until someone (me) could get to her. Why? Because the child was offering treats, was scared when that big head came over the fence and the child would drop the treat and run. The parents thought it was funny until the girl went back for the last time. The horse figured enough of the "game" and grabbed the treat dispenser (the child). Did anyone expect that? No. Was my mare being mean or aggressive. No, but you couldn't tell the parents that at this point. The girl lost a bit of hair and luckily made no contact with the fence so nut much worse for the experience but that is the reason for the sign. DO NOT FEED the animals. Because you (general) just never know what is going to happen. Had she asked she would have been told that I would be there shortly and she not only would have been able to feed her treats and pet her and be lifted onto her back for a short walk. She'd have had stars in her eyes instead of pure fright. Better safe than sorry is a good motto. I could go on. 



You're young and this is fun. Until it isn't. I understand and I truly get it. That you are asking advice means you get it. Or at least some of it. You don't want anything bad to happen to you or the horse. Just remember. She is not human no matter how much you treat her like one.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Until recently I would have agreed with most of what everyone else is saying here. However, I’ve been looking into science and psychology-based training methods and positive reinforcement, and while I was very skeptical when I was first encountered these ideas, I’m very quickly becoming a huge believer.

I recommend looking around on thewillingequine.com. From everything you’ve said I think you would really appreciate her approach to horse training, which is predominantly positive reinforcement. She has a YouTube channel as well as an Instagram page. She uses a some sort of barrier between herself and the horse when introducing the clicker, which enables her to set boundaries without having to use pressure/force.

Another great resource I found was https://empoweredequines.com/clicker-training/getting-started/
The Empowered Equestrians group on Facebook is great as well. Lots of articles in the “files” section I believe. 

I 100% understand how this type of training comes across to those who have only known traditional training methods, but the results speak for themselves. My super sensitive green 5 year old Arab cross has been improving in just about every area imaginable as a result of clicking training, including trail riding. The biggest change comes with the confidence that positive reinforcement training builds.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Drie16 said:


> I'm just curious (and I'm really, I'm sorry if this seems challening), have you ever seen a horse in herd apply so much pressure on another member as does for example Clinton Anderson or Monty Roberts? I'm really glad about this discussion because I think that in everything is a grain of truth, so it can be benefit for me


Oh my god, *yes*, and then some! I have a horse, and for the summer I'm leasing a young ex-race horse who lives in the same pasture. There's a total of four, and 4-Star (a.k.a "Four Star General") is the undisputed leader on that pasture. Key, my OTTB, is second, and sometimes he likes to challenge 4-Star, which is why he does not only have some scars on his shoulder, I have also seen 4-Star grab him by the withers with his teeth and not let go until Key started double-barreling him. No human would have been able to be on either of the receiving ends of that interaction and live to tell about it. But I'm not afraid to give either of these horses a hug and a scratch when I go to their pasture - they are not aggressive, they are just horses.

Just yesterday, in the adjacent pasture, I saw a quarter horse chasing a newcomer to the pasture across the pasture with ears pinned, teeth bared, at a full gallop. The chased horse escaped a vicious bite by this much. Later than evening, I had to rescue that horse (who got chased) because it tried so hard to get out of the pasture that it got entangled in fence wire...and we both got charged by the same horse when I was leading him out. (I started a thread with the full story.)

Clinton Anderson's harshest "pressure" is like a mother correcting her foal for being insolent to her. In the adult horse world, horses can suffer broken bones and having to be put down as a consequence of a dominance dispute. Losing some epidermis is par for the course - I've never seen CA make a horse bleed.

I love how gentle you are with her, but truly, you vastly underestimate the damage horses can do as a matter of "herd life", and how much pressure they can take if it is fair, consistent, and timely, and you allow them to learn quickly what the correct response is that gets the pressure taken away immediately. 

Do you ever _slap_ her? I slap horses all the time - in summer: A big, blood sucking fly lands on one I'm interacting with and where it can't reach with the tail. I say, "Hold still!", and slap it hard enough so the fly falls to the ground where I can kill it. Not only is the horse not startled by this, it never even stops grazing. I'm not acting aggressively when I do this, the horse trusts me and knows I'm not going to hurt it, and most likely it even knows what it is I'm doing. 

On the other hand, I can make the same horse back up (say to let me out the pasture gate) by tapping his chest gently with two finger tips and moving towards him. It's not the strength of the physical stimulus that makes a correction, it's your entire body language.

Having said that, the horse must trust you as a member of a different, a predator species, that you will, under no circumstances cause her harm. Triggering fight-or-flight is not conducive to learning, period, so in these initial days (1) continue working on your trust building, (2) read when the horse gets defensive about something you do to her and back off, (3) if you sense there is a "dominance" game afoot, or a game that could turn dangerous if it's being allowed to escalate, react as strongly as necessary to put a stop to it.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnnaLover said:


> She uses a some sort of barrier between herself and the horse when introducing the clicker, which enables her to set boundaries without having to use pressure/force.


I really hope you are not saying that the integrity of her personal space is contingent upon the existence of a physical barrier between them!?

I'm not saying the clicker method is worthless, but I am rejecting the "We all should do it like *this* now!" gospel. If I show up to the pasture with a halter, two horses come to me, I put the halter on one horse and the other follows us to the pasture gate where I have to leave the other behind, I know I have not one, but two willing equines. Never did a single click since I've known either of them, and one of them (young OTTB) I've only ridden and interacted with regularly for 3 weeks.

Children also sometimes learn through pressure and release, not through clickers. When you learn to swim or ride a bicycle, the laws of physics put plenty of pressure on you to find the right answer...the release comes when you float on the water or roll freely down the road. It's nice when your parents (or someone) also give you positive reinforcement ("Awesome job! So proud of you!"), but I daresay you'll find that just the release of pressure alone, when there is no more fear of drowning of falling ("I got this!!"), puts a huge grin on the child's face. The trick is, of course, that both swim and bicycle lessons were structured so that the child could find the correct answer each intermediate step of the way without getting hurt.

So yes, I definitely have gone from "release of pressure" to "release of pressure *and* ample praise", but putting pressure on the horse need not be detrimental to it if it is a manageable and worthwhile challenge to overcome.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Something else to consider is that our horses must face a number of unnatural stressors when in domestic environments. Not only are they usually taken away from their dams and/or family members quite suddenly, but they are also often moved from herd to herd/home to home many times throughout their lives. They often have limited space and limited foraging opportunities throughout the day. They are often exercised much more heavily than they would do themselves in the wild, and unfortunately must often endure ongoing pain from ill fitting tack and harsh equipment. The more thought you put into it, the longer the list becomes. Because of these things, we cannot take the herd behavior we witness in “domesticated” horses and use it to accurately decipher horse psychology and natural social behaviors. 

Also would like to add that Clinton Anderson is not someone who’s techniques I would ever use at this point. While I used to watch his training episodes on TV and apply them to my own riding, I can’t help but cringe when I watch him now and be thankful that horses are such forgiving creatures. 
Clinton’s techniques, as well as most that you find in traditional training, essentially cause the horse to mentally shut down, though of course we interpret the learned helplessness as relaxation and trust. The more you get into the psychological impacts of traditional training methods, the more horrifying they become.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> I really hope you are not saying that the integrity of her personal space is contingent upon the existence of a physical barrier between them!?


Nope, just a tool to help initially set boundaries without the use of pressure/force. From behind a fence you can teach the horse head/body placement for receiving a reward. I can link a video of it to help explain. Let me get on my laptop as I’m struggling to even read through this thread and type up replies from my phone.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

https://www.thewillingequine.com/single-post/2017/01/07/Clicker-Training-How-To-Get-Started






If you do read through this and/or watch the video, please do so with an open mind. It can be an uncomfortable thing to challenge beliefs that you may have had for the entirety of your life as an equestrian, but I can assure you that your horse deserves it. 

I will say that I very slowly eased myself into the realm of positive reinforcement training. For one, I wasn’t fully convinced that it wasn’t all a bunch of garbage. For two, the idea of leaving behind the traditional negative reinforcement/positive punishment methods that were all I knew and figuring out a whole new way to interact with my horse was overwhelming to say the least! 
The results were what really sold me, and then later the science and psychology aspect of the whole thing really set in. It comes down to the fact that horses are honest creatures and don’t spook/bolt/buck or act buddy/barn sour just to be ***holes- that’s just the easiest way to look at it, since it puts the blame on the horse rather than the human.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnnaLover said:


> Something else to consider is that our horses must face a number of unnatural stressors when in domestic environments. Not only are they usually taken away from their dams and/or family members quite suddenly, but they are also often moved from herd to herd/home to home many times throughout their lives. They often have limited space and limited foraging opportunities throughout the day. They are often exercised much more heavily than they would do themselves in the wild, and unfortunately must often endure ongoing pain from ill fitting tack and harsh equipment. The more thought you put into it, the longer the list becomes. Because of these things, we cannot take the herd behavior we witness in “domesticated” horses and use it to accurately decipher horse psychology and natural social behaviors.
> 
> Also would like to add that Clinton Anderson is not someone who’s techniques I would ever use at this point. While I used to watch his training episodes on TV and apply them to my own riding, I can’t help but cringe when I watch him now and be thankful that horses are such forgiving creatures.
> Clinton’s techniques, as well as most that you find in traditional training, essentially cause the horse to mentally shut down, though of course we interpret the learned helplessness as relaxation and trust. The more you get into the psychological impacts of traditional training methods, the more horrifying they become.


None of these are indictments of "traditional training methods". 

My own horse is an ex track pacing pony (used to accompany race horses to the starting gates). He rides in a snaffle bit which I was unable to produce pain in my own mouth with when I pulled it back with both hands for about 5-6 seconds - much longer than any signaling I do with him. Discomfort, yes; pain, no. 

On the trail, he looks around, he tells me where he'd like to turn when we get to an intersection, and he tells me when he'd like to speed up. Sometimes my answer is yes, sometimes it's no. One of us does have to be in charge. He is, however, mentally engaged in the process and a long way from "mentally shut down". Our trail rides are a coproduction.

It remains to be proven that CA's horses are shut down. He trains reining horses which, according to him, need a natural propensity to stop. That's the only way you can have a smooth slide stop from a gallop. Not every horse wants to be part of the decision making process, and he picks those for his training program. (for quotes, see: "Titan, Legend in the Making".)

So, here I am, with two horses from a "rough neighborhood" - the track; one's a pacer, one's an OTTB. Both come to me and stick their heads in the halter when I get to the pasture. Both have an opinion that they share on a regular basis. If you use the "traditional" tools wisely and compassionately, you'll not get shut-down drones like in the olden days when they threw a blanket over a horse and beat it until it gave up the will to live (a.k.a "break" the horse). 

Maybe a lot of people just have the wrong idea about "making the wrong thing uncomfortable". Putting your shoes on the wrong way around is plenty uncomfortable and causes you to look for a way to eliminate the discomfort, but it'll hardly jar your psyche into becoming a mindless drone.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

ktodd said:


> Yeah that sounds more or less right, if she acts aggressive in any way send her away.
> 
> The other thing is she doesn't sound like an aggressive horse, I think her "aggression" is fear based. It sounds like a fight or flight response. She feels like she can't flee, so she strikes out. You are correct to correct her, because in NO circumstances is aggression okay. But you also need to know why is she aggressive. Maybe you are moving to quickly with her, let her come to you. She might not want to for a few weeks. You want it to be her choice to come to you.
> 
> ...


The day 1 I made a mistake when I touched her - this was beyond her limit, but as did someone mention, there is no excuse of being agresive or rude towards me, that's why I did what I did. After this she chooses the option to get away from my hand rather then bite me. And yes, I did the first two days just sit there and talk like a total idiot to horses back  As I mentioned in update for day 3, she is okay with touching on head and a little piece of neck. I don't want to pet her on more places until she is 100% fine with head and neck.



QtrBel said:


> "This happened the first day 5 or 6 times?" This shouldn't have had to happen 5 or 6 times. Once and there should be enough respect that they think long and hard before they ever consider it an option. I'll give you an example. My husband has been around horses most of his adult life. He should know better. He likes to go in the pasture and "play". What he is really doing is aggravating the horses. He sees it one way. They see it another. It can be low key and little pressure or more "loud". Either way he feels he can trust them. They are ours and they are well behaved in your pocket horses. Because of this and because of how he sees me interact he lets his guard down and doesn't think -"I dion't have an ESTABLISHED play based or even training relationship so I better be on my toes." He lets them mouth him or bump him or do whatever it is and he thinks it is cute until (twice) he has ended up in the emergency room because one of the horses bit him bad enough that that is where he needed to be. His injuries were beyond what could be handled at home. I don't know your situation but we live in a rural location and a 911 call means we have to meet the ambulance at the nearest cross road several miles away. No fun in an emergency. Been in that situation more than once. Second example - One of my draft mares was part of a heritage display at a local park. She was behind electric fence and there was signage that asked guests to refrain from feeding or petting the animals without an employee (or owner) present. This mare is the sweetest horse on God's green earth. Would not intentionally hurt anything or anyone. She picked a child up by her pigtail and had her hanging several feet off the ground swinging wildly until someone (me) could get to her. Why? Because the child was offering treats, was scared when that big head came over the fence and the child would drop the treat and run. The parents thought it was funny until the girl went back for the last time. The horse figured enough of the "game" and grabbed the treat dispenser (the child). Did anyone expect that? No. Was my mare being mean or aggressive. No, but you couldn't tell the parents that at this point. The girl lost a bit of hair and luckily made no contact with the fence so nut much worse for the experience but that is the reason for the sign. DO NOT FEED the animals. Because you (general) just never know what is going to happen. Had she asked she would have been told that I would be there shortly and she not only would have been able to feed her treats and pet her and be lifted onto her back for a short walk. She'd have had stars in her eyes instead of pure fright. Better safe than sorry is a good motto. I could go on.
> 
> 
> 
> You're young and this is fun. Until it isn't. I understand and I truly get it. That you are asking advice means you get it. Or at least some of it. You don't want anything bad to happen to you or the horse. Just remember. She is not human no matter how much you treat her like one.


I know how horses can be dangerous, trust me. I am with horses from my 5 (I'm 17 now) and I have seen a lot of things, that were "cute" when the horse was a foal and then got dangerous. I have rotated pelvis because of the horse freeze-flee nature and it happened in a second as I was riding. But yes, I have bigger trust in horses as I "should" have, because I think I can read the body language very well. If I wouldn't, I would never-ever get a donkey and pony perform tricks in liberty. The donkey was extremly shut down, you could offer him a slice of apple and he wouldn't take it (and he likes food very much!) and it took trhee months to "awake" him. And then he became dangerous, he liked to bite or buck when the pressure was too much on him. And he had basically no tolerance because he was abused with pressure. I mean there was unfair big pressure for long period applied by his previous owner. The pony was another case, I raised my hand up and he turned the back to me and would kick everytime he felt endangered. Nothing funny and if I won't read the horse, I could end up in hospital - we weren't able to get them out of stall. But I don't agree that "wild games" with horses ARE dangerous. They can be, but I can play with both of them chasing and they won't really buck. The will just lift their back about 15 centimeter and that is it. If they are too wild, I send them out on a big circle as I were longing them and they are running and bucking from the 10 meter distance. They can't chase me of course and I decide when it is time to go back to me. I'm able to stop them in every moment of the game by stepping a bit forward and then backing (Clinton does this I think). They can stop the game anytime by just stopping and provoke the play by going to me and standing there with head up and a "playful face".



AnnaLover said:


> Until recently I would have agreed with most of what everyone else is saying here. However, I’ve been looking into science and psychology-based training methods and positive reinforcement, and while I was very skeptical when I was first encountered these ideas, I’m very quickly becoming a huge believer.
> 
> I recommend looking around on thewillingequine.com. From everything you’ve said I think you would really appreciate her approach to horse training, which is predominantly positive reinforcement. She has a YouTube channel as well as an Instagram page. She uses a some sort of barrier between herself and the horse when introducing the clicker, which enables her to set boundaries without having to use pressure/force.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link!  I'm trying to work with clicker, but I use the pressure a little bit, too. Like when the donkey was too pushy towards my back on the halter, I kicked back (not too hard, not too gently) in his chest like a horse would do. But I have done with R+ a lot with donkey and the pony, who were abused by pressure and tended to overreact when applied.,



mmshiro said:


> Oh my god, *yes*, and then some! I have a horse, and for the summer I'm leasing a young ex-race horse who lives in the same pasture. There's a total of four, and 4-Star (a.k.a "Four Star General") is the undisputed leader on that pasture. Key, my OTTB, is second, and sometimes he likes to challenge 4-Star, which is why he does not only have some scars on his shoulder, I have also seen 4-Star grab him by the withers with his teeth and not let go until Key started double-barreling him. No human would have been able to be on either of the receiving ends of that interaction and live to tell about it. But I'm not afraid to give either of these horses a hug and a scratch when I go to their pasture - they are not aggressive, they are just horses.
> 
> Just yesterday, in the adjacent pasture, I saw a quarter horse chasing a newcomer to the pasture across the pasture with ears pinned, teeth bared, at a full gallop. The chased horse escaped a vicious bite by this much. Later than evening, I had to rescue that horse (who got chased) because it tried so hard to get out of the pasture that it got entangled in fence wire...and we both got charged by the same horse when I was leading him out. (I started a thread with the full story.)
> 
> ...


thanks for new information (I said this discussion can be great!), I won't use this argument again. I have never seen before. I have a few questions about 4Star, is it okay? 
About slap - WE ARE TALKING HERE ABOUT A HORSE, WHO DOES NOT ACCEPT TOUCHES, not even slaps! Yes, I slap "my" horses every day because of the insects as you wrote. But not a young unhandled horse, who is afraid of touches... It is like horses ears - they can signalise sleep or anger according to the whole body language. 


mmshiro said:


> I really hope you are not saying that the integrity of her personal space is contingent upon the existence of a physical barrier between them!?
> 
> I'm not saying the clicker method is worthless, but I am rejecting the "We all should do it like *this* now!" gospel. If I show up to the pasture with a halter, two horses come to me, I put the halter on one horse and the other follows us to the pasture gate where I have to leave the other behind, I know I have not one, but two willing equines. Never did a single click since I've known either of them, and one of them (young OTTB) I've only ridden and interacted with regularly for 3 weeks.
> 
> ...


I have worked with this horse with psysical barrier, because her hoof is like my head and I don't want to get hurt. The second reason is, that I'm alone with the horses, so if I would pass out or something, there could noone help! If the wasn't the fence, she would surely try to kick = she is more "alfa" that her mother, she had never been corrected by another horse. 
Horses are like people and the same thing can suit to different personalities. If I would use the pressure on the donkey or pony, I would break their souls so I did it trough clicker. They run towards me everytime they see me, now. And Flicka, we will see. I don't want to "follow" anoyone with training methods because of this. I think there is not a manual to train horses or children. I can take a look and pick up the things that will not destroy my horses soul. For example, the clicker does not work with Flicka. We have the word marker instead of click ("Yes" meaning You are on the good way, keep going) and another for ending the whole exericse ("Good girl") that means, that you will get reward, you can stop doing what are you doing. And there is a "NO" clue, that will stop her from everything she is doing at the moment. The biggest award for her is to run around (again on the big circle around me. If is she too pushy, I get her away by pressure - rotating the rope, waving with hands) or sniff me - depends on the exercise we did before. BUT if I want to touch her, I ask for permission. I straighten my hand toward her. If she wants, she makes a step and gets her head under my palm, so I can pet her. If he doesn't want, she just touches slightly by her nose. If I'm petting her too long, she touches my arm with the nose - that's the stop sign, so she has no reason to be rude. And if I do not accept that, she walks away.
By R+ I was able to reteach the reaction to pressure, by the way. 
I am the child where was the pressure applied to much and it has lots of cones for me, maybe that is the reason why I'm taking the pressure so serious. 



mmshiro said:


> None of these are indictments of "traditional training methods".
> 
> My own horse is an ex track pacing pony (used to accompany race horses to the starting gates). He rides in a snaffle bit which I was unable to produce pain in my own mouth with when I pulled it back with both hands for about 5-6 seconds - much longer than any signaling I do with him. Discomfort, yes; pain, no.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can make the wrong thing uncomfortable, but how will the horse react? Will it fight against pressure, get in rage and tend to flight-flee-freeze reaction or will it accept, that there is some better place (the right thing)? That is that matters for me personally. I don't want to stand there a hour and "fight" with the horse who can hold longer the pressure when I can teach him basic manners about food - standing still, not begging, not being pushy and you will get the treat- and solve the problem with another way? 

Someone mentioned, that I should never feed a horse. And I ask why? I train with treats the donkey and pony - the first thing you teach with clicker is manners about food - if they'll stand still, won't begg and won't be pushy, the will be rewarded (then you give the treat just for the 2nd exercise and so on, so the horse don't need treat anymore). I didn't teach this Flicka yet, because she didn't know the pelleted food and it wasn't a real reward for her. So I prepaired the apple out of her sight (really far away, in the tackroom) and I gave it to her just on the ground, not from hand, so she won't begg.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Yes, you can make the wrong thing uncomfortable, but how will the horse react? Will it fight against pressure, get in rage and tend to flight-flee-freeze reaction or will it accept, that there is some better place (the right thing)? .[/QUOTE]

Oh my dear - some of you really need to look up the meaning of "uncomfortable". If you go to the store, try on a sweater, and find out it has an _uncomfortably_ itchy collar, do you flee the store in a blind panic??


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Yes, you can make the wrong thing uncomfortable, but how will the horse react? Will it fight against pressure, get in rage and tend to flight-flee-freeze reaction or will it accept, that there is some better place (the right thing)? .


Oh my dear - some of you really need to look up the meaning of "uncomfortable". If you go to the store, try on a sweater, and find out it has an _uncomfortably_ itchy collar, do you flee the store in a blind panic??[/QUOTE]
I can scratch myself into blood because I really want that sweater (I have a really strong motivation) or I can admit, that it is uncomfortable.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

It's too late to edit, but let me give you two example of people training, using pressure and release:

Desensitizing: Put a human in a hot car. The steering wheel will be uncomfortable to the touch. But the human has learned that, running the a/c full blast, if you ignore the temporary discomfort, it will soon go away.

Yielding to pressure: Put a barefoot human on a hot beach. The sun-baked sand will be uncomfortable to stand on, and no amount of waiting will make it change. Watch as the human commences trial and error to find relief from the pressure: tip-toeing, hopping, finally a mad dash to the area where the waves break. Heureka! No more discomfort. Next time, the human will use the solution "dip your toes" right away.

Do you think any of these experiential learning events have any risk of triggering a fight-flight-freeze reaction in any human of normal predisposition? So, as you can see, "making the wrong thing uncomfortable" is neither evil nor torturous. Horses are comfort seeking, so as soon as you observe a response, you have created enough discomfort for a solution-seeking to take place. It's your responsibility to find that lowest threshold of entry. 

We don't teach the horse compliance like this anymore:


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

I would think that an itchy sweater is more closely akin to an itchy saddle pad, not a rider spurring/kicking their horse when they're nervous and balking, or yanking on the bit when the horse spooks and leaps forward, or even a horse being gradually smacked harder and harder with the end of a lead rope until they finally disengage their hind end.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Drie16 said:


> I can scratch myself into blood because I really want that sweater (I have a really strong motivation) or I can admit, that it is uncomfortable.


Yeah, if you were my horse, I'd sell you. My horse would buy a collared shirt alongside to wear underneath if it really wanted that sweater. I guess it would be my responsibility as your trainer to guide you towards that answer before you make me pay for a blood-stained sweater nobody can wear anymore.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnnaLover said:


> I would think that an itchy sweater is more closely akin to an itchy saddle pad, not a rider spurring/kicking their horse when they're nervous and balking, or yanking on the bit when the horse spooks and leaps forward, or even a horse being gradually smacked harder and harder with the end of a lead rope until they finally disengage their hind end.


That's a typical _reductio ad absurdum argument_, which ultimately would lead to, "Yeah, if the horse don't get it, just shoot it." You have to read the whole "manifesto": If the horse doesn't find the answer quickly, you posed the question wrong or you went too fast. Make your horse a winner. Accept and reward the slightest try.

It is not an inherent flaw of the training method if people (a) rush to get results fast and fail to put in a solid foundation, (b) don't know when the horse is confused or frustrated and hence when to back off and rethink what and how your are trying to teach, (c) don't know the difference between a "response" and a "reaction".


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

And what about this? Especially the part, when the horse jumps off, is clearly scared by the trailer (cca 9-13 minute)? I can tell you, that even when I had the long rope, I got kicked by Flicka because she has to be nearby the trailer and the trainer as well. This is a riding horse, but a cart horse is much bigger, I think that I don't have to explain. This is for me a start of FFF situation, where it depends on the horse and its strenght and panic from the item - you can turn its head towards you, like you would try to get the muzzle to its shoulder, but then the horse starts bucking, rearing and honestly, who is soo good with horses that could handle this? I'm telling you, that I'm not and I love my health.
But I must say, I like your meaning of pressure but I miss there a space for horse to have the situation in control - I don't see a point when he could say "STOP, this is too much, I need to calm down and I will tell you if I am". That is the biggest R+ pro for me. We have a start signal (the horse usually stands and stares at you or lowers head, relaxes one foot) and then the stop signal - turning head away, any other calming signal, touching the hand or a step back.. It depends on horse. 
And I have a question, in pressure training, do you have a dialogue with horse or you just say "do it"? Has the horse the free opinion? I'm just curious and I'm sorry if anything sounds challenging - the live conversation would solve this problem surely  

Someone from real life mentioned, that when my horse gets away from me, I don't have the attention. But I give him just the space to calm down and he'll come when he is ready because he really wants to hang out with me or just wants the food (depends on which level in training the horse if, of course). That is what I call a dialoque. You don't want to do it? Okay, I will not slap you with a stick (Clinton did it in the video to get the horse to move - he escalated the pressure to make it extremly uncomfortable for the horse to stand), we'll try it another way, maybe I won't ask for sniffing the trailer, just for a step forward. Exists something like this in pressure training?


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

All horses have different personalities, just as humans do. Some horses are considerably more sensitive than others, and a lot of it depends how they're raised. In my experience horses raised around humans are much more trusting throughout their whole lives and tend not to panic as easily under human-sourced pressure. It sounds like you, mmshiro, look for those with an exceptionally steady, easy going personality, which of course many people do! Many people go through multiple horses before they find one that is agreeable enough to be a keeper. I know I have personally sold more than one "overly-sensitive" and reactive horses in the past. 

The "keeper" type of horses fair well with negative reinforcement training, though some only do if the -R training is done in an exceptionally fair, soft manner. There are also those horses that put up with extremely harsh -R training, like one of the little mares I own. It's very obvious that shes been practically beaten into submission in her past, but is the most reliable, safe mare you could ever ask for. Her behavior is a perfect (and extreme) example of learned helplessness. (Of course I'm now working on opening her back up and showing her that she is allowed to have an opinion and express it). 

It's the horses that don't have these types of temperaments that suffer the greatest- the types that cannot handle the constant pressures and corrections by their rider/handler. They become the buckers, bolters, spookers, etc. due to being pushed into prolonged states of insecurity and lack of reassurance and validation of their fear and discomfort. 
Just as a narcissist looks for potential relationships in those with submissive, agreeable temperaments that will put up with their silent abuse, it seems that we, as horse people, look for horses with submissive, agreeable temperaments that will put up with- even appear to thrive under- traditional training methods. 

As far as the example of a kid learning to swim or ride a bike through pressure and release, I feel as if that should be compared to a foal learning to run for the first time or a horse learning how to navigate steep, rocky terrain, rather than being trained with negative reinforcement. A horse being taught how to load in a trailer or side pass on the ground through pressure and release (then praise?) is more like a child being yelled at or smacked in a classroom when they get the answer to a math question wrong (then praised when they get it right?). 
I want to be the type of "parent" for my horse that is patient and encouraging while they try (and potentially fail) to figure out "4+9," and then rewards them when they get it right, not the parent who pressures the kid with "C'mon this is SO easy!" and makes fun/shames when they get the answer wrong (which of course is even more likely while under pressure).

I am not intending to shame those who use negative reinforcement training in the least. If you're anything like me, which I think most are, you don't realize the psychological reality behind -R. We think that we know how a horse learns under pressure and release, and how the right answer suddenly becomes very easy for the horse to seek out, but the truth is that horses think, process, and learn in a very different way than we have been lead to believe. They are many studies out that disprove the "logic" behind training methods such as those that Clinton Anderson uses.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I love your thread btw and your girl is SO lucky to have you. I trained exotics professionally, bomb dogs and birds of prey for years. There are several techniques. People often mix up the types of reinforcements etc which is actually a bug bear of mine, can't resist... hope you don't mind me just clarifying...

- positive (to add) reinforcement: every time the dog exhibits a wanted behaviour add something pleasant/positive pressure (reward)
- negative reinforcement: apply a stress stimulus (pressure/punishment***) and only *take it away* when they do what you want (release _is_ reward)

- positive punishment: doing something you dislike? add something unpleasant (punishment/negative pressure), like you shouting or smacking it, ignoring (no reward)
- negative punishment: wants treats? Take them away entirely - do the opposite (no reward)


I hope that makes sense? It is VERY easy to mix them up and very easy to mistake one for another. Often people will be doing a combination without even knowing it  OR they confuse their pet by using one approach one time and a different one the next. You pick one way to approach a behaviour and stick to it until it proves to work or it doesn't. As you can see these 4 basic (there are MUCH MORE) ways to enforce and discourage behaviours are an option. 

*I wrote punishment above because yes, some people take it too far when applying a stress stimulus. A lot of people assume this is the default for this training approach and it is NOT, as I feel OP interprets as. I think negative reinforcement _becomes_ abuse when it is excessive and the pressure is not released appropriately... I cannot use positive reinforcement on an untamed bird. It has no positive associations to work with. It is scared of hands and food, doesn't know how to eat a peanut! So how do I even start? I can walk towards it's cage and stand still until it looks at me - then walk away. That's a reward to this bird. I can ignore it as I change its water. It _likes_ being ignored. I do _not_ need to chase it around the cage until it is collapsing of heart failure to get the same result or the same trust. Each time it becomes less stressed by the negative stimulus by _learning how to make it go away_, giving it power. But.. this bird cannot crush me or end my life. I have no reason to rush it's learning. BUT with a horse, an animal that CAN seriously injure me in a flash of a second, there are absolutely cases where it has been taught by humans (gasp) that we are literal specks of dust in its big fat alpha universe. It is not their fault and they suffer for it either way in helping them or condemning them. Sometimes a big head needs a big wake up call. A criminal must go to jail for his crime, even if his excuse was that he suffered as a child the same fate. It is a pity yes, but someone will always pay. For a lot of animals, especially nervous/anxious ones, the power you can give to them by using negative reinforcement is worth more than any treat or petting. It's when people go over the top with the stimulus/pressure it becomes a useless and abusive technique. It really DOES depend on the individuals involved and the trainer's ability to gauge exactly how much pressure is needed in the first place...

I have made many mistakes in my years of training all sorts of animals. I've rushed things like trying to pet and handle them, and been bitten. I've been too soft, too nice and the animal has interpreted me as weak, resulting in my own injury. I've mistaken dominance for trust and had my butt handed. Hindsight is 20/20. This is a journal after-all and not a thread asking for advice but I'm hoping this opens a new perspective on how negative reinforcement is not ALL evil. 

Keep writing, I look forward to your progress and pray that you stay safe <3


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Drie16 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT4FCaNvX6A
> 
> And I have a question, in pressure training, do you have a dialogue with horse or you just say "do it"? Has the horse the free opinion? I'm just curious and I'm sorry if anything sounds challenging - the live conversation would solve this problem surely
> 
> Someone from real life mentioned, that when my horse gets away from me, I don't have the attention. But I give him just the space to calm down and he'll come when he is ready because he really wants to hang out with me or just wants the food (depends on which level in training the horse if, of course). That is what I call a dialoque. You don't want to do it? Okay, I will not slap you with a stick (Clinton did it in the video to get the horse to move - he escalated the pressure to make it extremly uncomfortable for the horse to stand), we'll try it another way, maybe I won't ask for sniffing the trailer, just for a step forward. Exists something like this in pressure training?


There is always a dialogue, because you are supposed to reward the slightest try. You don't put on pressure until you get the end result, you put on pressure until the horse does something that you recognize as a step towards the end result. Then you call it quits, and proceed to something new. If the horse doesn't want to trailer load, you *don't* (attempt to) put on pressure until it goes on the trailer, you put on pressure until the horse acts less reluctantly towards the trailer. Then you cease pressuring, reward, let it rest, and do something else. Next time the horse will use that as a starting point so you can build on that. Taking baby steps ensures that the horse actually learns and wants to come back to the activity, because it knows that finding the right answer will give it a reward. 

If it doesn't find the right answer, you don't punish the horse, you figure out how to pose the problem differently or break it down into smaller steps, so that the horse can find the answer more easily. 

The pressure needs to be designed so that the horse gets a strong hint as to what the correct answer is. That's what's implied in "asking the question correctly." The main philosophy is to create a win-win situation in which the horse thinks that by behaving a certain way it has trained you into rewarding it. The pressure merely sets some parameters (a "solution space") that cuts down on the trial-and-error. If the horse already knows that "squeeze" means "forward", I'll use "squeeze" to get it past a scary spot. I don't sit on the horse and _wish_ it past the scary spot. In the end, the correct response (getting past a scary spot) still earns the horse a reward (praise, scratch, loose rein, etc.)

What you describe in the second paragraph is largely covered by "ending on a high note" and "keeping the lesson short". Yes, if I read the horse and he's losing focus and patience, I will, indeed, end on any positive response I can get and put a bookmark there. It's basically what I described above - ending a lesson is also a strong reward that is a learning experience for the horse. Why not take advantage of it? I will, however, insist on something that resembles a good effort. The release has to come from me. I cannot be miles away from home and rely on the horse's good will to take me home. I say when you're done working, and it's my responsibility not to ask more than you can handle.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnnaLover said:


> I want to be the type of "parent" for my horse that is patient and encouraging while they try (and potentially fail) to figure out "4+9," and then rewards them when they get it right, not the parent who pressures the kid with "C'mon this is SO easy!" and makes fun/shames when they get the answer wrong (which of course is even more likely while under pressure).


You'd let that child work on "4+9" without any feedback until they get it right, and then praise them? You wouldn't ask the child how they attacked the problem, praise them for the partial steps they get right, and ask them to rethink the steps that led to a wrong answer? 

There is so much wrong with your logic... "Making fun" or "shaming" is neither implied by the training method, nor is it the only alternative to praise for the correct final solution. How about for pressure, "You got it right up to here, try the rest again!" – Clearly, the child will not be crushed by being sent back to fix the wrong answer and being told it was wrong, it will be encouraged by the progress it did make and by having been rewarded for the "slightest try".

From straw man arguments to confirmation bias and, there is very little that is constructive in your critique of "pressure and release", as over and over I have to tell you that, "No, this is not how this works." 

As for working with "sensitive horses", most of the horses I've been riding are OTTBs, which are not known for a CA-reining horse personality types. I get them to go where I want, at the speed that I want, past scary stuff on the trail, all without clickering and with the judicious use of a bit of pressure and release. Ultimately, we always come home riding "on the buckle", and when I show up to pick them up, they are right there. And yes, we do have conversations about how fast to go and where to turn at intersections, but I'm not using a clicker to let them figure out by themselves which way we will go, I'll turn them by squeezing my outside leg EVEN if they know for SURE a shortcut to the barn.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Drie16 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT4FCaNvX6A


So hard to watch :frown_color: All I see is a very fearful, insecure horse that is trying every thing to escape the relentless pressure that Clinton is putting on her. Why a "phobia" would be approached in the way it is done in this video is beyond me (although I must admit that I used to go right along with the idea!). Would it be more obviously wrong if a child with a phobia of heights was yelled at and hit until they walked to the end of an olympic diving board? Why is a horse's fear not validated in the same way as our own?

Where is the proof that moving a horse's feet, especially while not moving your own, gains any respect from a horse? Fear yes, but respect? There's a very important difference between the two. A horse that fears you will only listen to you until there is something else they fear more (tractor, barking dogs, a shadow in the arena??). This kind of training teaches a horse that they cannot rely on their rider/handler to keep them safe when they are afraid. Instead, it teaches them that they will be punished for showing fear/discomfort, and so they often learn to hide it, though they still endure the stress of the situation all the same. 

I think that the horse world (and mankind in general) has an unhealthy obsession with the idea of respect, anyway. What about trust? Why can't we strive toward gaining our horse's trust rather than demanding their respect. If you didn't grow up with a parent(s) that demanded your utmost respect, I can just tell you that it is extremely exhausting and frustrating to be on the receiving end. No amount of obedience is ever enough to appease the parent, and any misbehavior is immediately blamed on a lack of respect. The truth is, you cannot *demand* the respect of any living creature. Respect is not something that can ever be forced. That is the whole point of respect, is it not?

Clinton says that you cannot train a horse if there is no energy in the feet, and the horse's owner echoes that getting a horse's feet moving is what makes them think. In reality, it's quite the opposite, no? A horse being forced to quickly moved their feet away from pressure is quite literally being forced into a reactive state of mind. Let me ask, are you better able to learn in a high pressure, scary situation, or when you feel relaxed, safe, and are being patiently guided through something? Horse's "think" and learn when they are relaxed and confident and react when they feel panicked and insecure- just like you and me. I'm sure we've all experienced reacting in the "wrong" way by grabbing the horn or simply bailing when we suddenly find ourselves riding a bucking bronc, even when we *know* that you're supposed to "grab hold of the cantle and kick the horse forward,' or whatever it is that your uber experienced cowboy neighbor advised you to do. In such a frightening situation, you're not using the "thinking side of your brain," as we like to call it (sounds a bit degrading when you've applied the term to yourself, doesn't it?)

Ah! The farther I get into the video the more confusing it becomes. Clinton says he never wants the horses to be frightened of him or his tools. What does he think they're doing when he has them bug eyed and running circles around him after he has whacked them with his whip?? 
Oh here we go! "All of a sudden" the mare pitches a fit, "acts like an idiot," and whacks her jaw on the trailer door. The reality of it is, this poor mare was pushed WAY over threshold, and experienced what is called "trigger stacking," with the trailer being one trigger, and the pressure from Clinton/the whip being another (among other things, such as being in an unfamiliar place and being handled by an unfamiliar person.) 

This video explains trigger stacking well, and has the option for subtitles if you struggle to understand the narrator's accent!


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> You'd let that child work on "4+9" without any feedback until they get it right, and then praise them? You wouldn't ask the child how they attacked the problem, praise them for the partial steps they get right, and ask them to rethink the steps that led to a wrong answer?
> 
> There is so much wrong with your logic... "Making fun" or "shaming" is neither implied by the training method, nor is it the only alternative to praise for the correct final solution. How about for pressure, "You got it right up to here, try the rest again!" – Clearly, the child will not be crushed by being sent back to fix the wrong answer and being told it was wrong, it will be encouraged by the progress it did make and by having been rewarded for the "slightest try".
> 
> ...


I could say the same for you, as I have pointed out that I don't see the logic behind comparing something like an itchy sweater to the pressure of something like a lunge whip, for instance. 

Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant by the 4+9 example very well. I meant it as a child who has learned the basics of addition trying to figure out a problem that is a bit more challenging than say "1+1," on their own. The "making fun/shaming" was my comparison of the negative reaction a horse would receive for getting an answer to something their handler/rider asks them to do wrong, as I can't imagine many parents would respond by making their child quickly move their feet, LOL. 
Just to clarify, I don't mean to say that moving your horse's feet or anything of that nature is shaming your horse. I only mean that pressuring your child to figure out a math problem (when the answer may seem so obvious to you), and then reacting in a way that shames the child for getting the answer wrong is similar to using pressure to ask your horse to move laterally away from you and then chasing your horse off when they get flustered and move into your space instead. 

Positive reinforcement training does not entail a lack of feedback whatsoever. In fact, the click and reward is the feedback in and of itself. Just as you would (ideally) apply pressure and release with each step the horse takes toward the trailer rather than applying constant pressure until the horse jumps in, you should click and reward your horse for making baby steps toward the end goal. 
I have found that when you reward the right answer, rather than punish/disapprove of the wrong answer(s), horses learn things *much* more quickly. As a plus, they tend to remain calm, curious, and engaged the entire time, rather than getting (even slightly or not noticeably) stressed or overwhelmed by the pressure. 

Another thing I think I should clarify is that you absolutely teach your horse cues with clicker training. Depending on how extreme you go with positive reinforcement training (many choose to pair +R with -R, especially under saddle and in cases when the horse has already been trained using -R), you would apply outside leg pressure, and then click and reward for the horse moving off of your leg. The difference is that the leg pressure is simply a cue and remains light pressure, rather than gradually getting stronger and stronger until the horse responds the way you want. Clicker training in no way leaves the horse to it's own devices in order to find the right answer. 

The results I have seen in my own horses was the thing that convinced me that +R training is the right way to train and interact with a horse- and any other animal or person, for that matter. Done correctly, you will no longer have to "convince" your horse that home is not the right direction. By solving the underlying issue and relieving them of their insecurities and stresses, while also building their confidence in themselves and you, you end up with a horse that is happy to leave the comfort of their barn, because their comfort zone now extends well beyond that.


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Yeah, if you were my horse, I'd sell you.


And I am that type of person, who would buy me and try to "repair" me  



mmshiro said:


> There is always a dialogue, because you are supposed to reward the slightest try. You don't put on pressure until you get the end result, you put on pressure until the horse does something that you recognize as a step towards the end result. Then you call it quits, and proceed to something new. If the horse doesn't want to trailer load, you *don't* (attempt to) put on pressure until it goes on the trailer, you put on pressure until the horse acts less reluctantly towards the trailer. Then you cease pressuring, reward, let it rest, and do something else. Next time the horse will use that as a starting point so you can build on that. Taking baby steps ensures that the horse actually learns and wants to come back to the activity, because it knows that finding the right answer will give it a reward.
> 
> If it doesn't find the right answer, you don't punish the horse, you figure out how to pose the problem differently or break it down into smaller steps, so that the horse can find the answer more easily.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, it is more clear for me


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

DAY 4 - Warning, this post could be very emotional, subjective, unprofessional and personal.

My horse is also ma partner, so I tell them everything even if they can't understand. I think you know that from dog owners. I'm not the type of person, who would "let their problems outside the barn". Definitely not. I have discovered, that for me it is better to show horses when I'm sad or happy. When I'm angry I just join the horses on the pasture and watch them from distance (I don't know how is this possible, but they do not come to interact). Today was the sad day. My past wasn't very well and horses helped me a lot. Have you ever heard about Equine Facilitated Psychotherapy? 
So, we have a several problem in our family and I escaped to Flicka, basically. She didn't come when whistled, she just watched me from distance. This is the usual reaction of a horse, who is dealing with my feelings for the first time. I use to behave like a vulcano - I store my emotions in me and then I erupt with very strong feelings. I went into the shelter and I started talking to her about my problems and she was acting like she was really listening to me (or just my voice). When I started to cry, she came really close to me and started wiping my tears with her nose (or she was just curious what the hack is happening with me) and when I got a pannick attack, she took a deep breath out with a sound (like when are horses epicurean rolling) and she lowered her head in front of mine. This is her permission to be touched on the head. I just say, that I was shaking and making strange noises, the opposite of myself when I try to pet her normally. As I got into normal, she fell asleep nex to me.

After that, we went trough the whole pasture to the hay (and shade) on command. It was like 2 meters of following, reward, another 2 meters and so on, but she focused very well. 
But nothing is 100% positive and our day was not a exeption. She tried a new thing - pawing on me to get attention. She tried twice, I just made her back and that it was. No more pawing. Oh and notice for me: *Be carefull when do you ask her to back!* I'm using straightened index fingers shaking back and forth as I was upbraiding her together with "puffing out" my chest and step towards her. My goal is to lower my index fingers and she should react on my bodyweight shift towards her. The reason why I am teaching her this way is, that she doesn't accept touches on her chest and I need her to *slowly* step back when she is too pushy. I could chase her away, but it would be too hard in this moment and she tends to really flee away. That would be not good in narrow loft with two horses. Anyway, I started to want a back from a wrong position of myself, so she backs into sides, not straight. I'll have to fix it. The other notice for me: *Do not feed from hand*. We started with the clikcer basics - stand still, do not be pushy, you'll get the rewar (manners about food). From this moment food comes only out of the food bag and she knows the rules about it. 
I tried to touch her neck, shoulder and leg by sitting next to her and she was 50% okay with that. We made progress with the head, she lets me to pet her gently for several seconds, she has no problem with two hands on her head, I tried to clean her eyes gently. She was very cute when she discovered, that petting is good, because she straightened her head, lowered it and made a very satisfied sound... And then she realized, that I'm a human and she rised her head up . 
I made a video, it will be at the end of this post. I'm sorry for my lame speech, I didn't prepare anything and I got the jitters everytime I started the recording. I'm basically just saying, that I was going from the gate to Flicka, she went to me and then I just pet her. I'll also attach a few photos documenting Flickas mood today as the temperature rised 

Do you have some tips for some toys for her? We had an arguement, because she really wanted to roll the watter bottle and chew it and play with it, but it was hot today, so I had there water for me. I took it away and she really wanted to play with it and take it back. I wanted her to back and she made that angry face on me. You know, bad eye-look and ears on the neck. I chased her away with no problems. She stood a little bit away and after about two minutes she was back, peacefully eating grass nex to me. 
Ps. I don't want to pay attention on me or regrets. I just want keep this journal as authentic as possible.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Drie16 said:


> When I started to cry, she came really close to me and started wiping my tears with her nose (or she was just curious what the hack is happening with me) and when I got a pannick attack, she took a deep breath out with a sound (like when are horses epicurean rolling) and she lowered her head in front of mine.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm using straightened index fingers shaking back and forth as I was upbraiding her together with "puffing out" my chest and step towards her. My goal is to lower my index fingers and she should react on my bodyweight shift towards her.


When I had to change barns, I went to my lease horse's pasture and said good bye to her and her pasture buddy in her shelter. Let's just say it was not a happy moment for me. When I finally left, both of them followed me to the pasture gate - they had never done that before.

...

You are using "pressure and release". "Stepping towards her with energy" puts pressure on her - it is uncomfortable. She steps back and you give release. See? No horses have been harmed in the application of "pressure and release".


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Drie16 said:
> 
> 
> > When I started to cry, she came really close to me and started wiping my tears with her nose (or she was just curious what the hack is happening with me) and when I got a pannick attack, she took a deep breath out with a sound (like when are horses epicurean rolling) and she lowered her head in front of mine.
> ...


Yes, I'm doing the pressure, but there comes another reward as the pressure release itself. She likes to "discover" me, sniff and the action that follows. My goal is to let her back and then reward by touching (she is now filling her need to discover new things and her need to play)


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## Drie16 (May 3, 2018)

DAY 5
I'm really glad that I had the opportunity to work with Flicka again. I thought it will be worse after one month. She is really willing and sweet. Sadly, I found out that the owner tried to put her small halter on again, so everytimes she sees a halter, she lifts her head up looking like a giraffe -.- 

When I came in, she didn't come, I was unable to touch her. We were at the begining. She walked away from the lesson twice, even if the criteria were very very low. So, again. Reward for standing next to me, reward for touching me... I rewarded every little step. And Flicka improved! I'm really happy about this progress because even if she showed signs of discomfort (licking, turning head and ears back), she pushed into my hand rubbing her. I am able to rub her right side of neck, on the other site she accepts only short gently stroke, but I think this is good. I can stroke her shoulders and withers, I tryed to touch her left knee and she was fine. The biggest problem is touching the area under her jaw, the spot where the rope connects to the halter. I can't go there with my hand. The win of the day is, that she enjoys the rubbs between her eyes. She layed her head on my knees and closed her eyes multiple times, while I was rubbing her. 
I'm proud that she didn't spook too much today. There were some lorrys moving nearby, it rained with a lot of thunders and she just lifted up her head, snorted several times and relaxed again. The only problem was, when some **** rev their motorbikes in the forest. 
I was trying to push her away from me by turning her head and the pressure behind the scapula from the "worse" (right) side, when that noise came. Flicka kicked and my luck is, that she doesn't really want to hurt me. She doesn't kick agresively in the full range of the movement as she used to, she just... I don't really know how to describe it, she just genly lifted her butt? Something like that. 
This was the first time a horse tried to kick me, to be honest. I was shaking, she was shaking. She ran into the loft (to her mommy) and returned like two minutes later. She was soo incredibly sweet and kind towards me! I think she realised that she could hurt me or she just felt my shock. I didn't expect her so gently touching me (with no fear) until that moment. She did the same when stepped on my toe, but not so gently. It seemed like she wants to apologise. 

When I had to go, she followed me all the way to the gate (with a short stop for drinking). I had to return for my water bottle about 30 minutes later and she trotted towards me  I think this is gonna work! 
Please turn off the voice while watching videos, I apologise for my lame speech


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