# Dog chasing horses??



## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

So, almost a year ago I got a new dog. He is a dachshund/lab mix and he is just over a year old. I have been having a problem with him chasing horses. He will nip at their back legs and bark relentlessly. If you chase him off he will just come right back. Today there were some people walking down the street with their two miniature horses when the wind blew our front door open (must not have been closed all the way) and two of our dogs got out, including Bugzy. Bugzy started barking and nipping at the horses, and we couldn't catch him (he wouldn't come for treats either) and every time we chased him off he just came right back. The poor people and their horses were stuck standing in the middle of the road chasing him off over and over again. I finally went and found something to scare him with, which happened to be my favorite pair of split reins, and smacked them on the ground so they made a loud snapping/cracking sound. That scared him enough to make him run back to the house. This is COMPLETELY unacceptable, and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on how to break this habit?? I board my horse so he's not exposed to horses very often.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Shock collar! At least you know this is unacceptable, so many dog owners think this would be no big deal.
Some places rent shock collars.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Shock collar! At least you know this is unacceptable, so many dog owners think this would be no big deal.
> Some places rent shock collars.


A shock collar is a good idea. Our horses don't mind well behaved dogs around them, but barking/nipping dogs around their legs would result in serious injury to the dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

SHock collar for the win. Works very well. Certainly better than dog getting kicked in the head.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

find the right horse that doesnt tolerate dogs, one punt end over end and most dogs get the message.


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## Island Horselover (Apr 4, 2012)

Agreed, shock collar is what worked for us too, I have a border collie cross and she started herding the horses.... no way and the only way to stop it was a shock collar. As with all animals and trianing TIMING is an important thing! Good that you realize that your dog is DANGEROUS for other animals right now and I would keep him on a leash until the problem is resolved, for your dogs sake, horses and other peoples' sake!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree - use a shock collar because you and your family do not have control over the dog.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

If he were my dog, he would get spanked hard for that kind of behavior. Drop lash whip, riding whip, lead rope, halter, bucket... Anything I could aim his direction. He would have that lash laid across his backside and chased very angrily back to the house. 

A shock collar might work, but you will have to bait him. He has to commit to the mistake before a correction can be made. And yes timing is everything. 

Chasing him around, trying to grab him, trying to bribe him, only creates a game. Holding him in front of an object he wants to harass and doing nothing to tell him that doing so is wrong(saying "no" or using anything verbal means nothing. He cannot understand you. If he did, you would have no problem calling him off.). He needs to associate action with feeling. The feeling of impending death and destruction is a strong one. 

My dogs run loose. They have free access to all the fields and barns with the horses, foals, children, cats, pigs, and whatever else we might have at the time. Aggression, plain and simple, will not be tolerated. Punishment is swift and very harsh, and never goes longer than the situation. New dogs are introduced to the farm on leash, and stay on leash until at the very least "come" is learned. Usually, by the time they go off lead there isn't much of a worry, but they still have much to learn, and are carefully monitored. They are all given basic obedience training, which can be done at home. WE are the bosses.

They all know what tones of voice mean what. They all know our energies. You know that LOOK your mom gave you when you were in trouble, or when she was happy with you. Your dogs know that too. They are apart of everything. They know their places and know to listen to us. They are well loved. Get good food, treats, playtime, grooming, snuggles, and everything. They are happy to see us. They jump and bark and jostle to be with us. But they HAVE to listen. They HAVE to mind. They are good dogs. Very rarely do they get in trouble. 

After having my lab mix(my best buddy in the WHOLE world) about a year or two, he got the bright idea to growl at my nephew. I don't even remember thinking, just reacting. He was set upon by me and my sister. He got spanked, whipped, yelled at, had stuff thrown at him, until he found his way out of the house. The entire world fell on him in a split second. We kept an eye on him for a while when he was around my nephews, and he was very tuned into us. When my nephew was not around, it was business as usual. Now, there is not even a bit of worry. Granted, it has been like 7 years since then. The dog and the boys had BETTER have learned by now. 

It sounds really harsh, to say I have pretty much beaten my favorite dog, but aggression is a whole different world than making a mess on the carpet or chewing up an expensive set of reins. He could hurt another animal, he could hurt a person trying to step in, he could pick the wrong animal and get SERIOUSLY injured, you could be sued, you could upset the wrong person and have them come after you and try to hurt your dogs... There is nothing I would do to my dog that would be worse than those. Saying "I'm sorry." doesn't work when an officer knocks on your door asking about an aggressive dog. 

It is best to train your rules and boundaries right out of the gate. Sometimes, things just develop, but hopefully, you have laid a groundwork of training and respect. It might be a good idea to go back to leash work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

You're looking at a serious liability if someone gets hurt. Definitely a shock collar. Also, keep him away from the horses.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I had a sweet but troublesome dog one time - he was seriously and relentlessly going after my chickens. And he wasn't really listening to me when I told him to stop. He'd quit at that point in time when I yelled at him but then he was back at it again. I used what I called 'aversion therapy' (made me feel like an absolute deviant when I did it). In about a week and one-half, he was completely cured and never bothered again. I kept him under constant control (this is very important); he was either tied up by the house or on a leash when I went down to the barn. True to form, he went after the chickens as usual the first time seeming to forget he was on the leash. Because I had control of him and could act in a timely manner (another important point), I immediately tore into him by screaming like a banshee, shaking him by the neck (he was a big enough dog, by the way, so I was pretty sure the amount of force I could muster would not do a permanent injury) and pushing him down to the ground and keeping him there; after my 'attack' I went right back to normal with him in all other aspects of our otherwise happy relationship (yet an important point). Over the next few days, I progressed to having my husband herd the chickens his way to tempt him (this was by far the worst part for me to do as I was deliberately setting him up to fail) and then I attacked again. I wasn't finished at this point, however, as I next started getting after him if the chickens made any sudden movements. By this point, I had him off leash while at the barn but still confined at the house. Lastly, he was given back his freedom while I watched him constantly from the house. I knew my unpleasant therapy worked when I watched two roosters start a fight with each other when he was in the area and he immediately headed full tilt back to the house not wanting to be anywhere near them. Thereafter, both chickens and he lived long and happy lives.

A technique such as this may work for your dog if he's a "hard case" and dominant personality.

Good luck.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

I will not put a shock collar on my dog, plain and simple.
He is ALWAYS on a leash when he is outside the house and not confined to the yard. This was a freak accident where he happened to get out right when the people with the horses were walking by the house. I know he thought it was a game, but I didn't know what to do. I tried throwing things at him but he is _very_ quick. I am very aware of the consequences of an aggressive dog. I do not tolerate ANY kind of aggression from my dogs. But I board my horse and he is barely ever exposed to livestock, so I haven't had the chance to work on this behavior. We are still working on manners and respect (and training in general) and I am going to see if I can find a trainer to help us, but in the meantime I need to correct this behavior.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Chevaux: I think something that extreme might be a little too much for this dog. He is usually very submissive and a bit of a wuss, so that might scare him too much. But the technique might work. Just maybe instead of shaking him by the neck I could crack a whip (that sound scares him) or give him a smack with a crop or something. However if it were one of my other dogs (a dominant lab/healer mix and a springer spaniel) I would do the same thing you did.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

How would the shock collar be any different than smacking him with a whip?(as far as pain is concerned) Just because you use a shock collar it doesn't mean you have to turn it up to the highest setting and fry him for 10 minutes straight.

The shock collar would make him think that the horse did it to him rather than you.
You would have to be pretty sneaky for the crop to work and for him get the idea right away. If you go chasing him with the crop by the time you get close enough to smack he will most likely forget or have no idea why your smacking him. Dogs and horses are the same when it comes to timing for training.
The shock collar will offer you immediate correction and he will associate it with the horse rather than you with a crop in your hand.

ETA: On most dogs, it has only taken me once or twice of using the collar.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

You have an adolescent dog and he is not trained. Pure and simple. Keep in on a leash and escalate his training, including exposure, and don´t give him a chance to repeat the chasing which for him is highly rewarding and will probably outweigh the punishment that you can give him afterwards unless you are a) very quick, and b) very violent. 

I wouldn´t go to a shock collar just yet- the only problem with this dog is that he is untrained and lacks any self-control. Repeated exercises demanding his focus and obedience while close to things he wants to chase are the way to go. Don´t let him off leash until he has mastered ´come´. 

I know where you´re coming from - my dog is a hunting dog and loves nothing better than to chase. She is accompanying our long-distance ride and so has to be reliable in terms of returning when called and not chasing livestock. It is possible. 

Dogs-n-Harmony is a very good forum with many very talented people who can help you with training ideas.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Cowchick: I'm not so much concerned with pain (and I wasn't saying I was going to beat him with a crop, I was just using that as an example of something that would surprise/scare him) as I am with fear. A cracking sound or smack is something familiar, it's something they encounter throughout their life (but still scary enough to make an impact), whether it be the sound of a gunshot or firework, or another dog biting them, or whatever. A shock is not familiar to them and isn't something they would normally encounter. For some dogs a shock collar might be ok, but I know my dog and a shock collar would terrify him. 
Cracking/smacking _sounds_ seem to scare him, that's what I meant by cracking a whip.

AnnaHalford: I know he needs more training, and we are actually working on it (not as much as we should be at the moment, though, but I'm going to start doing more with him) and he is getting better every day. He has more respect for me and is becoming more obedient. The suggestion of doing obedience exercises near things he wants to chase is a good idea. Any ideas of where I could give him more exposure? The people who own the barn where I board my horse have their dogs loose on the property so I can't really take him there.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

No offence or anything but I can tell you if any dog bit my horse it would be the last thing that dog eve did; a shock collar would be the least of its worries; its the most unacceptable thing a dog can do besides biting a human.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

reigninseattle said:


> Cowchick: I'm not so much concerned with pain (and I wasn't saying I was going to beat him with a crop, I was just using that as an example of something that would surprise/scare him) as I am with fear. A cracking sound or smack is something familiar, it's something they encounter throughout their life (but still scary enough to make an impact), whether it be the sound of a gunshot or firework, or another dog biting them, or whatever. A shock is not familiar to them and isn't something they would normally encounter. For some dogs a shock collar might be ok, but I know my dog and a shock collar would terrify him.
> Cracking/smacking _sounds_ seem to scare him, that's what I meant by cracking a whip.
> 
> AnnaHalford: I know he needs more training, and we are actually working on it (not as much as we should be at the moment, though, but I'm going to start doing more with him) and he is getting better every day. He has more respect for me and is becoming more obedient. The suggestion of doing obedience exercises near things he wants to chase is a good idea. Any ideas of where I could give him more exposure? The people who own the barn where I board my horse have their dogs loose on the property so I can't really take him there.


Does he not get along with other dogs either? I would explain to the BO and ask if you can bring him. I take my little dogs out.....one is a bit obnoxious, but getting better, and the other is wonderful, but ONLY because he has gone with me MANY times. My BO also has dogs that are loose, as well as other boarders....they all learn to play together. I do have to watch how hard they play tho, since my dog weighs 10#, and the others are large...and he like to keep up with them. WHen I started I took his crate with me-he is crate trained....and when I could not watch him totally, he was in the crate, in the tack room. I have also just taken them out and gone on hikes on the property with them....and I use a clicker to keep them close. Good luck.

FYI-shock collars WORK. My BO uses one on her JRT when we are on trails to keep him from doing his typical ADHD thing, getting distracted and getting lost. It also keeps him from chasing deer and fawns, etc. They work. Like I said-better than a kick in the head.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> AnnaHalford: I know he needs more training, and we are actually working on it (not as much as we should be at the moment, though, but I'm going to start doing more with him) and he is getting better every day. He has more respect for me and is becoming more obedient. The suggestion of doing obedience exercises near things he wants to chase is a good idea. Any ideas of where I could give him more exposure? The people who own the barn where I board my horse have their dogs loose on the property so I can't really take him there.


If there are loose dogs on the property then I'd say there's all the more reason to take him there. If you want to have a true go-anywhere dog, then he has to learn how to deal with off-leash dogs while he's on-leash. As do you :wink:

Ask your BO. Explain what you want to do and why. Then set yourself up for something that works : set some time aside, a short period to start with ; take the dog out for a nice long run beforehand so he's tired ; take the dog down to the barn, on-leash, and have a wander about with horses in the vicinity. Don't rush it - start far away from the horses. Your objective is for the dog to stay calm and not go into chase mode. Reward any calm behaviour, and correct any fixating. If he starts barking about and twisting on the end of the leash, you started too close to the horses. Back off and come back another day. 

Go to the site I recommended, there're people much more knowledgeable than me. Also look up focus exercises. And don't let him exercise the behaviour ; every time he gets the opportunity to chase a horse, or anything else without your permission, he reinforces to himself just how awesome it is, and that will make it even more difficult to train him not to do it. 

All exposure exercises will help, even if they're not with horses - he needs to get used to the idea that he has to listen to you in all situations. Dogs are poor generalisers and so the more places he learns to listen to you, the better... 

[/end sermon]


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

That can be the case, but there is a difference between a dog being around horses and a dog actually biting a horse. I have worked on cattle stations in a few parts of Australia and on most places cattle dogs are an incredibly valuable asset, in fact I have heard a few managers say that a good cattle dog is worth three or four good men on a horse (they could have been just trying to keep us on our toes too I guess). All the same, dogs that did their job were well looked after, those that bit horses or killed chickens were always shot. Dogs around a horse is fine, dogs that attack a horse, they need the skin flogged off them on the first offence, if they are stupid enough to do it twice, they get a bullet.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

AndrewPL: So you're saying I should shoot my dog? Because I think that's one of the most unacceptable things a human can do.

franknbeans: He gets along great with other dogs, never met one he didn't like. Same with people. I will have to ask my BO, but having Bugzy there would probably be a liability.... And I'm not saying shock collars don't work for some dogs, but I won't put one on this particular dog.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

What you do with your dog is up to you, and if it bites someone’s horse, then you can deal with the horse's owner and on that score I am saying is that if anyone's dog dared to bite my horse it wouldn’t live to do it again. I think the bond between horse and rider is sacrosanct, forget religion, you want to know what enlightenment is, really bond with a horse. Any dog dares to bite my horse that will be the end of the mut. 
As the owner of the dog it is your responsibility to ensure, 100% that that mut cant bite a horse. If you did let it bite a horse you have no moral high ground to be coming at me.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> AndrewPL: So you're saying I should shoot my dog? Because I think that's one of the most unacceptable things a human can do.
> 
> franknbeans: He gets along great with other dogs, never met one he didn't like. Same with people. I will have to ask my BO, but having Bugzy there would probably be a liability.... And I'm not saying shock collars don't work for some dogs, but I won't put one on this particular dog.


A dog that attacks and bites livestock should be shot. Also, which is the lesser of the two evils here? : your dog being trained with a couple of shocks from a zap collar or a dog who is kicked in the head or shot for worrying horses? 

I trained my intense Aussie shepherd with a shock collar, I can take her anywhere and rely on her to behave. Therefore ensuring her own safety and the safety of the animals and people she comes into contact with.


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## Paintlover1965 (May 22, 2009)

I think it might help if you could train your dog to listen to the "come" command and then progress through dog training school. I have done this before with my other strong willed dogs and have had success. Your dog then needs to be socialized with a horse who isn't frightened and your dog gently introduced on a leash first and progressed from there. If you could do it with your own horse with someone to help you it would be great. Maybe you could go somewhere away from the BO's dogs to try this. I understand you don't want to hurt your dog either but they definitely need some socialization experience. I am not a dog behaviourist but if it were my dog I would try something like this. A well trained dog is a real treasure.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

AndrewPL: You _know_ I don't live on a ranch or work on a cattle station, and you _know_ that that kind of "advice" is not welcome here. At this point you're just being rude and need to leave.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

AnrewPL said:


> What you do with your dog is up to you, and if it bites someone’s horse, then you can deal with the horse's owner and on that score I am saying is that if anyone's dog dared to bite my horse it wouldn’t live to do it again. I think the bond between horse and rider is sacrosanct, forget religion, you want to know what enlightenment is, really bond with a horse. Any dog dares to bite my horse that will be the end of the mut.
> As the owner of the dog it is your responsibility to ensure, 100% that that mut cant bite a horse. If you did let it bite a horse you have no moral high ground to be coming at me.


First of all, he has never actually tried to bite a horse. Second of all, I didn't LET him do anything. I tried everything I could think of to keep him away from those horses, and how many times can I say that this was an ACCIDENT! He got out of the house by accident, I don't just let him run around willy nilly. There isn't a dog owner out there that can say their dog has never managed to chew through a leash, escape from the house, climb the fence, etc. and get away from them. I have an incredible bond with my horse and would be horrified if a dog bit him, but I still wouldn't put that dog to death. At this point I am going to ask you to please leave this thread because I started the thread asking for advice on training and you are obviously just trying to stir things up.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Paintlover1965 said:


> I think it might help if you could train your dog to listen to the "come" command and then progress through dog training school. I have done this before with my other strong willed dogs and have had success. Your dog then needs to be socialized with a horse who isn't frightened and your dog gently introduced on a leash first and progressed from there. If you could do it with your own horse with someone to help you it would be great. Maybe you could go somewhere away from the BO's dogs to try this. I understand you don't want to hurt your dog either but they definitely need some socialization experience. I am not a dog behaviourist but if it were my dog I would try something like this. A well trained dog is a real treasure.


We definitely need to work on "come". We have worked on it in our yard, in the house and at the dog park and he does pretty well, but I think I need to take him other places where he is exposed to other distractions (he would be on a long line, of course) to work on it. I have introduced him to my horse a couple times on a leash and he did fine, but like I said before I will have to talk to my BO to see if I can bring him there to get more experience.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> I will not put a shock collar on my dog, plain and simple.
> He is ALWAYS on a leash when he is outside the house and not confined to the yard. This was a freak accident where he happened to get out right when the people with the horses were walking by the house. I know he thought it was a game, but I didn't know what to do. I tried throwing things at him but he is _very_ quick. I am very aware of the consequences of an aggressive dog. I do not tolerate ANY kind of aggression from my dogs. But I board my horse and he is barely ever exposed to livestock, so I haven't had the chance to work on this behavior. We are still working on manners and respect (and training in general) and I am going to see if I can find a trainer to help us, but in the meantime I need to correct this behavior.


where I live if A dog runs off there property and bites a human or horse the humane society will take said dog and PTS I think a shock collar is a safer better option.I used to be against them but I have a deaf dog and I have now started using a vibration collar that does have ashock feature to help in training the are not cruel. they are meant to get the attention of the animal you have to train them right and you will only have to use the shock a couple of times if your dog is not dumb as rocks. Also one swift kick to your dogs head and you wont have to worry about training .. now that to me is more Cruel.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Critter sitter said:


> where I live if A dog runs off there property and bites a human or horse the humane society will take said dog and PTS I think a shock collar is a safer better option.I used to be against them but I have a deaf dog and I have now started using a vibration collar that does have ashock feature to help in training the are not cruel. they are meant to get the attention of the animal you have to train them right and you will only have to use the shock a couple of times if your dog is not dumb as rocks. Also one swift kick to your dogs head and you wont have to worry about training .. now that to me is more Cruel.


You aren't listening to me. I'm not saying I won't use a shock collar because I'm against shock collars. I'm saying I won't use one because all it would do is terrify him, and I think there are better ways to train THIS DOG. Not every dog can be trained the same way.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> You aren't listening to me. I'm not saying I won't use a shock collar because I'm against shock collars. I'm saying I won't use one because all it would do is terrify him, and I think there are better ways to train THIS DOG. Not every dog can be trained the same way.


Ok so figure out away to train the dog before he or a horse gets hurt. my SIL dog ran out and went to nip or bite a horse and ended up biting the rider (this was a Sweet dog ) the rider pulled a gun and shot the dog.. and was completely with in his rights. I hate to see that happen to any animal. you said it took you having to scare the S$%T out of him to get him to stop then maybe the collar is a good thing. Honestly scare him 2 times maybe only once and he will stop and if he don't then I bet nothing will stop him. 
I understand you frustrations really I do.. I do train dogs


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Critter sitter said:


> Ok so figure out away to train the dog before he or a horse gets hurt. my SIL dog ran out and went to nip or bite a horse and ended up biting the rider (this was a Sweet dog ) the rider pulled a gun and shot the dog.. and was completely with in his rights. I hate to see that happen to any animal. you said it took you having to scare the S$%T out of him to get him to stop then maybe the collar is a good thing. Honestly scare him 2 times maybe only once and he will stop and if he don't then I bet nothing will stop him.
> I understand you frustrations really I do.. I do train dogs


That is why I came here, since I figured there might be some other people who have had the same problem, but I guess I should have gone somewhere else :-? I guess you would have to know my dog, but making a cracking sound is different than zapping him with a shock collar. This whole situation is making him sound like some vicious, dominant dog, but In reality he's kind of a wuss. I'm starting to wish there was some way I could delete this thread because, while some of you have made helpful suggestions, others have been downright rude.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

you need to work on the basics with him 2 commands he needs drilled into him is Down "laydown" and stay. get him doing that use a long lead and have the horse owners if they are willing walk by . keep training and do notlet him have his way ever.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

A dog in a fixated state where he is intent on harassing another animal, by barking, charging, attacking or otherwise and that will not listen to commands or attempts at stopping the behavior, NEEDS to have something done to him to snap him out of that state.

When he did this did you:
-call him
-crack a whip
-offer him treats
-pop your hands
-yell at him
-try to catch him

Did any of that work? And you want to say now it will? 

Yes, accidents happen. You have been given advice on how we would have had you fix it. Clearly none of the solutions work. Perhaps your trainer will help you with a solution you can live with. Let's hope he doesn't escape again and go after a dog-aggressive horse. Then he will really know fear and pain. 

Good luck.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

LadyDreamer said:


> A dog in a fixated state where he is intent on harassing another animal, by barking, charging, attacking or otherwise and that will not listen to commands or attempts at stopping the behavior, NEEDS to have something done to him to snap him out of that state.
> 
> When he did this did you:
> -call him
> ...


I have to make one comment on your post here, you listed ' offer him treats' as one of the distractions.....never ever would I recommend someone offer a dog a treat who is in a fixated state......that is just reinforcing the behavior.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> I have to make one comment on your post here, you listed ' offer him treats' as one of the distractions.....never ever would I recommend someone offer a dog a treat who is in a fixated state......that is just reinforcing the behavior.


Muppetgirl what Ladydreamer stated was just what the OP did not what she was recommending..


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

If not a shock collar I would say either tie him out, or have a dog run. Like some have said its a liability. Dogs learn just like any other animal. You have to be consistant with training them. Have someone walk a horse around while you have the dog on a leash. When dog acts up turn him away tell him no make him sit. when he sits still reward him. Continue to do this moving him closer to the horse. Tell him sit he sits reward and retreat reward him again. Let him know that acting up around horses is a no no. Just having a shock collar on isn't going to do it. Its a easy quick fix that doesn't last long.
Good luck be safe
TRR


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> AndrewPL: So you're saying I should shoot my dog? Because I think that's one of the most unacceptable things a human can do.
> 
> Tell that you are not a country person!
> I have shot more than one dog for worrying sheep. I had a neighbours dog do over $5000 worth of sheep maiming and killing before I caught him in the act.
> ...


Darn dog is obviously not nervous enough to have left the horses alone when you tried ineffectively to get him away. Maybe a good shock or a hard toe of your boot would bring him to his senses.



reigninseattle said:


> AndrewPL: You _know_ I don't live on a ranch or work on a cattle station, and you _know_ that that kind of "advice" is not welcome here. At this point you're just being rude and need to leave.


No, he is not being rude he is being truthful. WHat you mean is that no one has said _Ah, poor likkle doggie, nasty horses shouldn't be near his house'_'



reigninseattle said:


> First of all, he has never actually tried to bite a horse. Second of all, I didn't LET him do anything. I tried everything I could think of to keep him away from those horses, and how many times can I say that this was an ACCIDENT! He got out of the house by accident, I don't just let him run around willy nilly. There isn't a dog owner out there that can say their dog has never managed to chew through a leash, escape from the house, climb the fence, etc. and get away from them. I have an incredible bond with my horse and would be horrified if a dog bit him, but I still wouldn't put that dog to death. At this point I am going to ask you to please leave this thread because I started the thread asking for advice on training and you are obviously just trying to stir things up.


Sorry but I really hate to shoot you down but my dogs have free range and they never leave the property. Nor do they chase horses, deer, sheep or anything else. The reason for this is that they are trained and know what they are in for if they were to even think of such a thing.



reigninseattle said:


> You aren't listening to me. I'm not saying I won't use a shock collar because I'm against shock collars. I'm saying I won't use one because all it would do is terrify him, and I think there are better ways to train THIS DOG. Not every dog can be trained the same way.


He needs to be terrified then he might be more obedient to you. He would not associate the shock as coming from you but from the horse.

I have helped many people train their dogs to be stock proof - the only one I 'failed' with was with a Border Collie an elderly couple owned. Then, to be fair, I never even tried - all I did was to get the dog in a controlled form of sheep chasing and after a few hours that dog was working like one that had been trained to sheep from a pup. 

If your dogs were trained then they A) would not go out just because a door or gate was open. B) would not chase after anything just because it was going past their house, C) Come or leave something when told.

Stop being so darn ignorant of sound advice and set about being tougher on the blasted dog.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Critter sitter said:


> Muppetgirl what Ladydreamer stated was just what the OP did not what she was recommending..


Ooops my apologies Lady Dreamer....thanks for pointing that out Critter....I need some coffee!


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

No worries!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

A dog is a product of it's training much like a horse.
Using the methods Lady Dreamer described above is much like nagging or nit picking a dog or horse, they don't take it seriously, learn to ignore and blow you off making the situation worse.
The best way to correct a habit is to never let it begin. At this point it will escalate if not nipped in the ***.
I have never known a dog or a horse to respond to low level correction if they didn't know that a more severe correction will come if not responded to.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

reigninseattle said:


> AndrewPL: You _know_ I don't live on a ranch or work on a cattle station, and you _know_ that that kind of "advice" is not welcome here. At this point you're just being rude and need to leave.


Just fyi-this is a PUBLIC forum. Just because you do not like a reply does not mean it has no value, is rude, or that the poster should leave-any more than you should. 

You have gotten lots of advise...and have more excuses than one person should have as to why they will not work on little pookie. Good luck. I hope he doesn't get hurt or killed because you refuse to train him.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> If not a shock collar I would say either tie him out, or have a dog run. Like some have said its a liability. Dogs learn just like any other animal. You have to be consistant with training them. Have someone walk a horse around while you have the dog on a leash. When dog acts up turn him away tell him no make him sit. when he sits still reward him. Continue to do this moving him closer to the horse. Tell him sit  he sits reward and retreat reward him again. Let him know that acting up around horses is a no no. Just having a shock collar on isn't going to do it. Its a easy quick fix that doesn't last long.
> Good luck be safe
> TRR


Thank you for the constructive advice. We have a fenced backyard, but like I said no dog owner can honestly say that their dog has never ever climbed the fence, escaped from the house, chewed through a leash, etc. That sounds like a good idea, I will try that. This is exactly what I came here hoping to find, not a quick fix (shock collar) or people telling me my dog should be shot, but exercises that will not only teach him to be good around horses, but also build our mutual trust and respect and help him become an all-around well-behaved dog.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

LadyDreamer said:


> A dog in a fixated state where he is intent on harassing another animal, by barking, charging, attacking or otherwise and that will not listen to commands or attempts at stopping the behavior, NEEDS to have something done to him to snap him out of that state.
> 
> When he did this did you:
> -call him
> ...


ACtually I said that I got him to back off by smacking reins on the ground, which made a smacking/cracking sound. And where did "pop your hands" come from? That doesn't even make sense...
Also, I SAID I made a mistake by coming here. Apparently the majority of people on here just use shock collars and scare tactics to train their dogs.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Nope. I use positive reinforcement to train. I use scare tactics, fear, and pain to correct outright aggression. Aggressive behavior toes the line of death and will not be tolerated. There is no place on my farm for aggression or even threatened aggression. 

And no. I can honestly say I haven't had a dog chew a leash to escape, dig under or climb over the fence, or bolt out of the house. I take the time to train mine the rules. That is why I can have eight dogs off the lead at the barn or in the fields around horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Reigninseattle, I am not trying to be rude to you. I, along with others posting, are trying to save you the struggle of correcting a bad habit. If you nip it in the bud now and do not let it become engrained it is easier to fix.
My good dog that I have now is 7 yrs old. I have used a shock collar on her ONCE to fix the same issue as a pup. I have used a method similar as mentioned earlier(put on a long line and jerked down when she thought she was out of reach) when she got independent and thought she could go work before being sent. It took once maybe twice as a pup. Since then I have never had to worry. I can leave that dog on a flatbed pickup and tell her "stay" while she watches me move cows. She may whine and complain but she won't leave that truck unless called.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Darn dog is obviously not nervous enough to have left the horses alone when you tried ineffectively to get him away. Maybe a good shock or a hard toe of your boot would bring him to his senses.
> 
> 
> No, he is not being rude he is being truthful. WHat you mean is that no one has said _Ah, poor likkle doggie, nasty horses shouldn't be near his house'_'
> ...


I KNOW my dog needs more training. I have said that several times. This past year has been really hard for me and I haven't been focusing on his training as much as I should. The important thing is that I'm really working on it now. Besides, even if I had been really strict since the day I got him, he still wouldn't be "trained". He's only a year old, even if he had been trained by a professional he would still slip up. The other two need more training too, but they aren't even mine, they are my mother's, and every time I try to do something with them (for instance, making them leave the room when I vacuum) she won't enforce it. 
He _was_ being rude. I started this thread asking for advice on training my dog. He replied and all he said was he would shoot any dog that bit a horse. That is not advice, and he knew saying that would stir the pot. 
Nope, I don't live in the country. If a dog did $5000 worth of damage by killing sheep, that's a different story. Shooting your own dog for doing something that training could fix? Inexcusable. 
I stated early on that I would not use a shock collar. Anyone that is here still telling me I need to use one is just wasting my time. I know the pros and cons of using a shock collar and I am choosing not to use one on my dog. So if you're here to convince me that I should use one, don't waste your time, because you won't sway me. I came here asking for training advice. Using a shock collar is not, in my opinion, training. Also, first you said I should terrify him so he is more obedient to me, then you said he would not associate the shock as coming from me. So tell me again how using a shock collar would make him more obedient?


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> I KNOW my dog needs more training. I have said that several times. This past year has been really hard for me and I haven't been focusing on his training as much as I should. The important thing is that I'm really working on it now. Besides, even if I had been really strict since the day I got him, he still wouldn't be "trained". He's only a year old, even if he had been trained by a professional he would still slip up. The other two need more training too, but they aren't even mine, they are my mother's, and every time I try to do something with them (for instance, making them leave the room when I vacuum) she won't enforce it.
> He _was_ being rude. I started this thread asking for advice on training my dog. He replied and all he said was he would shoot any dog that bit a horse. That is not advice, and he knew saying that would stir the pot.
> Nope, I don't live in the country. If a dog did $5000 worth of damage by killing sheep, that's a different story. Shooting your own dog for doing something that training could fix? Inexcusable.
> I stated early on that I would not use a shock collar. Anyone that is here still telling me I need to use one is just wasting my time. I know the pros and cons of using a shock collar and I am choosing not to use one on my dog. So if you're here to convince me that I should use one, don't waste your time, because you won't sway me. I came here asking for training advice. Using a shock collar is not, in my opinion, training. Also, first you said I should terrify him so he is more obedient to me, then you said he would not associate the shock as coming from me. So tell me again how using a shock collar would make him more obedient?


 
No I was not being rude, nor was I stirring any pot; and no I didn’t give you any advice. What you should take away from it is that YOU are responsible for the actions of your dog and it is you who should ensure 100% that it is not a danger to anyone or thing. Sure, it bites miniature horse, luckily for you the owners don’t seem to be unforgiving towards dogs as I am. But what if the next horse it bites is owned by someone else? Or even worse, what if it attacks a child. You going to explain that it was just an accident? Will that be much of a consolation to the parents of a mauled child? 
I had a red heeler kelpie cross cattle dog for 16 years, and he would attack children if given the slightest chance and I knew he’d bit them if he could; guess what? In 16 years, I never let him maul a child; he didn’t even get half an opportunity; had nothing to do with training and everything to do with me taking responsibility for the dog and making sure 100% that he could never get in a situation in which he could attack a child. It is the same for your dog and horses. That is the point.


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## Anatopism (May 15, 2013)

I apologize up front for not reading pages 2-5. Here is my experience with my dog, who in the past didn't just run around and bark, but would actively nip heels and get far too close to another animal for his and the other animals safety... Maybe you can pull something out to be helpful with your dog:

My heeler-lab mix is rude with other animals. He's not aggressive, but he wants to be friends with or herd everybody.. and dangit, he really would like it if that chicken would just hold still for ONE second, so he can stick his nose up her butt... even if that means trying to put a paw on her to make her stay put on the ground. These things are not acceptable.

He has a shock collar to keep him IN my yard (because I can't be home 24/7 to monitor if the neighbor's are out in their yard, and their dog is far too much of a distraction NOT to jump the 4 ft fence to say hello). He does not have a shock collar when we are 'out in the world' because he's the type to think that pain is caused by whomever or whatever he's looking at (e.g. Looking at another dog? I feel pain from a pinch or shock collar? Must mean THAT dog is attacking me. Now I'm in fight mode). Using a shock collar with animals in my yard would do nothing but confuse him as to whether he's stepped over his invisible fence/barrier or not. SOOOO...

I've trained him to leave the chickens alone by exposing him to my chickens, and NEVER giving him an opportunity to learn how much more fun it is to be physical with them. 
- He tries to creep closer to them? He gets shoved backwards and I crowd his space like the alpha dog would. Sometimes he gets extra deep snarl in my voice (I'm not afraid to look ridiculous around company, if it means communicating that I mean business with my dog). 
- He continues, or even jumps towards the chickens? I react immediately by jumping on top of him and obscuring his view of the chickens at all.
- In the past, when he was antelope hopping into the middle of the chickens (because it's so much fun when they scatter), I made him lay down and he wasn't allowed up until I gave him the OK. He'd try, and I'd place him back in his spot, until he realized he wasn't going to get anywhere unless I allowed it. I proceeded to take each and every chicken (and the two ducks) over to him, and place them one by one on top of his body, until he had completely submitted to them. He refused to even look at them after 4 chickens. 

He's recently been introduced to a friend's property (In Tacoma, actually) that contains around 15 chickens, a big tom turkey, a mini horse, 5 dogs, and 6 goats, all free roaming with each other. He'd never seen anything but dogs (who he has notoriously been difficult 'out in public' with and I wasn't sure how he'd react) and chickens, previously. 

After being introduced to dogs in small-to-large order and getting the OK to proceed go-ahead, we let him loose with the goats and mini, to see his reaction. 
- He immediately tried to herd the goats. My friend grabbed him, and sat on top of him. The dog was not in any physical pain through any of this. There was no hitting, shocking, pinching, etc... He just sat on the dog, until the dog realized he wasn't near strong enough to win. This takes a person that is not 'angry' at the dog, but can communicate dominance (Is this similar with horses? If this doesn't make sense... fake it by exaggerated boredom. It's not anger, it's just dominance).
- We brought some of his chickens over and did the same drill he had at home. We then brought some of the bolder goats over, and of course the tom turkey was more than happy to come get a piece of the helpless dog. 
- Once let up from the ground, he was back on his leash/collar (not a harness or retractable lead. a 6 foot leash. and a collar). 
- We let him down to the goats, and if he so much as flinched in the direction of the goats, or thought about pulling or lunging toward them, he was immediately corrected by snapping the leash and walking the 30 yards back up to the house away from them. 
- Repeat, until he learns that he is ONLY allowed to investigate the other animals when he is calm, and respectful of their space. 
- It helps that this property does have so many animals that live together. The goats were all very curious and tolerant. The mini was the only animal my dog wasn't so sure he wanted to screw with (Buckets is JUST big enough, and my dog is rude, but not an idiot). 

Timing is important. Not letting your emotions get a hold of you is also important. If you can't do it yourself, find a friend who can. I love positive training methods, but I also believe in using the behavior that is specific to the species/animal. You can be dominant with your dog, without hurting him, or being cruel. If you can teach him that he'll never get what he wants unless he's calm and respectful, you'll have a dog that's calm and respectful. 

To be able to work on appropriate corrections, you NEED to expose him to livestock. Do so with livestock that you know isn't super reactive. He's still too much to handle when too close to horses/goats/sheep/guinea fowl? Then practice moving him closer and correcting by going away from what he wants from a further distance (like say.. a horse on the horizon). Your dog doesn't pay attention to the horse on the horizon? DON'T encourage him to look at it, just so you can tell him not to. Just move a little closer until he notices on his own. He pulls on the leash and start's barking? Snap the leash. Walk back to start. Repeat. It helps to have some sort of LARGE barrier to pull your dog behind if you are unable to get his attention back on you (a house, a wall, something he can't see around). Your dog is to be given NO freedoms with livestock, so as to limit his chances for failure. Not until you are 400% confident that he wont be a liability, is he allowed off leash around horses.

Your dog doesn't need to be hurt OR terrified, but you DO need to be clear in your expectations, and set him up for success, rather than failure.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Just fyi-this is a PUBLIC forum. Just because you do not like a reply does not mean it has no value, is rude, or that the poster should leave-any more than you should.
> 
> You have gotten lots of advise...and have more excuses than one person should have as to why they will not work on little pookie. Good luck. I hope he doesn't get hurt or killed because you refuse to train him.


I know it is a public forum, and anyone has the right to be here. Frankly I was just angry when he told me to shoot my dog, but can you really blame me for that? I still think it was rude though. It was off topic. I asked for advice and he did not give any.
I'm not trying to make excuses. I am getting very overwhelmed though, and in my attempt to get people to back off a little I made myself sound like an idiot and made everything worse. I didn't expect the replies I got, basically telling me I had to shock my dog or shoot him, and I felt like I needed to defend myself (and my dog). I don't want to use a shock collar, or beat him up, or shoot him. I am very aware of how serious this situation is, and I thought some other people out there might have dealt with something like this themselves and have some helpful advice for me. I was wondering if there were some exercises I could do with him, some way to get him to focus on me, something that would not only make him stop chasing horses but help with his overall training. When I said he doesn't have much exposure to horses or livestock, I was not trying to make an excuse for not working with him, but asking for advice on where I could go to get him more exposure and work on his training. I'm not looking for a quick-fix. I don't consider using a shock collar training, and if I was going to use a shock collar I would have done so instead of coming here for advice. I did get a few nice, constructive replies, and I will use the advice they gave me.
I guess I've learned my lesson though. I won't ever come back here for advice.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Anatopism said:


> I apologize up front for not reading pages 2-5. Here is my experience with my dog, who in the past didn't just run around and bark, but would actively nip heels and get far too close to another animal for his and the other animals safety... Maybe you can pull something out to be helpful with your dog:
> 
> My heeler-lab mix is rude with other animals. He's not aggressive, but he wants to be friends with or herd everybody.. and dangit, he really would like it if that chicken would just hold still for ONE second, so he can stick his nose up her butt... even if that means trying to put a paw on her to make her stay put on the ground. These things are not acceptable.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that, that is all really helpful. You have some very good ideas that I haven't thought of myself (which is why I asked for advice on this forum, because 1,000 brains is better than one :wink. I really don't like ever hurting my dog, and this sounds like it would really work with him. It would take a long time and would take consistent work but it sounds like it would be worth it.


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## Anatopism (May 15, 2013)

reigninseattle said:


> I know it is a public forum, and anyone has the right to be here. Frankly I was just angry when he told me to shoot my dog, but can you really blame me for that? I still think it was rude though. It was off topic. I asked for advice and he did not give any.
> I'm not trying to make excuses. I am getting very overwhelmed though, and in my attempt to get people to back off a little I made myself sound like an idiot and made everything worse. I didn't expect the replies I got, basically telling me I had to shock my dog or shoot him, and I felt like I needed to defend myself (and my dog). I don't want to use a shock collar, or beat him up, or shoot him. I am very aware of how serious this situation is, and I thought some other people out there might have dealt with something like this themselves and have some helpful advice for me. I was wondering if there were some exercises I could do with him, some way to get him to focus on me, something that would not only make him stop chasing horses but help with his overall training. When I said he doesn't have much exposure to horses or livestock, I was not trying to make an excuse for not working with him, but asking for advice on where I could go to get him more exposure and work on his training. I'm not looking for a quick-fix. I don't consider using a shock collar training, and if I was going to use a shock collar I would have done so instead of coming here for advice. I did get a few nice, constructive replies, and I will use the advice they gave me.
> I guess I've learned my lesson though. I won't ever come back here for advice.



Forum advice #1: Don't take ANYTHING personally. Even if someone flat out calls your name and says you're a pimple and they don't like you, do not, under any circumstances, take it personally. The joy of this, is that you have the same freedom to say, "No sir, I think you're mistaken. You look like the pimple to me." and then move on. 

I am a forumer. I made this term up. What I mean, is that I actively participate in forums for: Horses (new!), chickens, snakes/reptiles, arachnids (for my 10 tarantulas), and personality typing (e.g I'm an INTJ, if you really wanted to know). 

One thing that is common to ALL forums, is the person who hasn't picked up yet that forums are a place for people to unburden themselves and let out their frustrations, and who say they're never coming back. A forum is a place where filters fall, and stupid stuff gets said, and people start calling other people pimples, and other people start feeling like pimples, and then still more people use horrible analogies in an attempt to communicate forum culture. 

My point is... keep your chin up. People say things that will offend you. You wont agree with them, and you'll be absolutely furious. Shrug it off.. punch a pillow until it cries for mercy, and breathe it out. There are good people on this forum. If you stick around, I promise you'll find that even the people on this thread that you can't stand, will offer advice that you do agree with, and that you'll come to know in a more positive light.

I don't know how many forum 'fights' I got into when I was still learning 'forum culture' before I realized it is SO much more satisfying to just close a window when I start feeling too frustrated. 

I'm just saying.. hang in there. It'll be worth it if you do. 



reigninseattle said:


> Thank you for that, that is all really helpful. You have some very good ideas that I haven't thought of myself (which is why I asked for advice on this forum, because 1,000 brains is better than one :wink. I really don't like ever hurting my dog, and this sounds like it would really work with him. It would take a long time and would take consistent work but it sounds like it would be worth it.


It might not even take that much time, if you're strong/confident, and consistent. I trust my dog around my friend's animals now, but I still have to keep an eye on where he is - within eyesight at all times. I still have to 'snap' him out of it with a growl in my voice if I notice him getting fixated, but he's not stupid. 

I do wish you the best of luck however, and remember not to get frustrated (with your dog, or on the forum). Frustration doesn't fix anything. It's a mental dead end. 




edit/P.S. Going to eat and then bed. Please use imagination when reading sentences above that aren't constructed properly. Missing a comma here or there? Make up your own punctuation for dramatization and excitement. I'm too hungry/tired to correct my errors at this point.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

AnrewPL said:


> No I was not being rude, nor was I stirring any pot; and no I didn’t give you any advice. What you should take away from it is that YOU are responsible for the actions of your dog and it is you who should ensure 100% that it is not a danger to anyone or thing. Sure, it bites miniature horse, luckily for you the owners don’t seem to be unforgiving towards dogs as I am. But what if the next horse it bites is owned by someone else? Or even worse, what if it attacks a child. You going to explain that it was just an accident? Will that be much of a consolation to the parents of a mauled child?
> I had a red heeler kelpie cross cattle dog for 16 years, and he would attack children if given the slightest chance and I knew he’d bit them if he could; guess what? In 16 years, I never let him maul a child; he didn’t even get half an opportunity; had nothing to do with training and everything to do with me taking responsibility for the dog and making sure 100% that he could never get in a situation in which he could attack a child. It is the same for your dog and horses. That is the point.


I realize that I am responsible for the actions of my dog, I never said I wasn't. I said from the start that I know this is a major problem. That is why I'm looking for advice, because I have never had to deal with a dog that did this before and I don't want anyone to get hurt. I am not perfect, and I can't change what happened. I wish I could, but I can't. I would like to keep it from happening ever again.

How did you know your dog would attack children? Something must have happened to make you say "Ok, he can't be around children." This is the first time my dog has done this and I am going to try to correct this behavior and train him to be good with livestock (and of course he will be on a leash and I will take every precaution while around livestock so no one gets hurt). If I try everything and I fail, then I will keep him away from horses at all costs, because I know he will chase them. 

And ok, maybe you weren't trying to stir the pot, but the way you worded your response seemed to imply that I should shoot my dog. You might see why this would upset me.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

reigninseattle said:


> I realize that I am responsible for the actions of my dog, I never said I wasn't. I said from the start that I know this is a major problem. That is why I'm looking for advice, because I have never had to deal with a dog that did this before and I don't want anyone to get hurt. I am not perfect, and I can't change what happened. I wish I could, but I can't. I would like to keep it from happening ever again.
> 
> How did you know your dog would attack children? Something must have happened to make you say "Ok, he can't be around children." This is the first time my dog has done this and I am going to try to correct this behavior and train him to be good with livestock (and of course he will be on a leash and I will take every precaution while around livestock so no one gets hurt). If I try everything and I fail, then I will keep him away from horses at all costs, because I know he will chase them.
> 
> And ok, maybe you weren't trying to stir the pot, but the way you worded your response seemed to imply that I should shoot my dog. You might see why this would upset me.


 
OK, look I didn’t mean to go upsetting you, so sorry if I did. Shooting a dog for biting horses sounds harsh but I suppose it’s a measure of how much I value a horse compared to a dog.
As for my dog when he was a puppy, when I got him, he was kept at home near the house while I was at work all day, unbeknownst to me a couple of little kids would torment him all day. He was a work dog so he was kept on the chain when he wasn’t working. I found out eventually that the little brats were picking on him, but the damage had already been done, and he had learned to hate children, not his fault, but still made him a risk. I was home one day when one of the kids, not realising I was there, went to torment him and I watched as he went at the kid, who was just outside the range of the chain. I told the brat to ****** off but after that I had to keep him chained up all the time unless he was working, which is pretty standard for work dogs anyway and if there were kids on the place while we were working, to chain him up, not leave him of the chain. When I moved to the city I brought him with me and the first thing I did was escape-proof the back yard and insure that there was somewhere safe and secure (for him) that I could chain him up if I needed to. If I took him out of the yard he was never off the leash and I would muzzle him if he was near any children, which he would just about choke himself on his collar as I held the lead to get at. 
Thing is I’m no dog trainer, I don’t really love dogs, they are OK, but I wouldn’t really go out of my way to get one. And so, knowing I don’t have the knowledge to train a dog, I took precautions to absolutely ensure that he couldn’t hurt anyone; I took that very seriously, I couldn’t live with myself had my dog hurt someone’s kid.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

Anatopism said:


> Forum advice #1: Don't take ANYTHING personally. Even if someone flat out calls your name and says you're a pimple and they don't like you, do not, under any circumstances, take it personally. The joy of this, is that you have the same freedom to say, "No sir, I think you're mistaken. You look like the pimple to me." and then move on.
> 
> I am a forumer. I made this term up. What I mean, is that I actively participate in forums for: Horses (new!), chickens, snakes/reptiles, arachnids (for my 10 tarantulas), and personality typing (e.g I'm an INTJ, if you really wanted to know).
> 
> ...


Thank you.
This past year or so has been really rough for me, and there were many times when I felt like my dog and my horse "Red" were all I had. I can't bare the thought of losing either one of them, and when a bunch of people start telling me that my dog is aggressive and needs to be shocked, or that he should be shot, or beaten, or should be terrified of me, I get a little upset to say the least.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There are sometimes 17 dogs here. Most are terriers, some come when owners are away (friends, we are not a kennel) I have Foxhound puppies for the local hunt, often four at a time. I can guarantee that come feed time, when I feed only raw, every dog is outside where I cut up the meat and throw it to them in chunks, and waiting quietly. They are sat or standing around me and when I cut a chunk and throw it to them I call their name and they catch it and go off to their place to eat. 
There is no feed order. I look to see how the dog looks, what exercise it has taken and cut an appropriate size and throw it to them. 

The puppies soon learn - in about two feedings, what is expected of them. No stealing from each other, no investigating when another dog is eating and when they have finished to just wait around. 
I can if necessary walk up to any of these dogs and they will give their food to me. I rarely ever do this but I can.
Not one of these dogs is afraid of me and most are rescues bringing different problems with them. 
Have they ever been punished? Yes, some of them have. Did they become nervous after? No they didn't because the punishment fitted the crime and was at the instant. I have never used a shock collar on any of them. 

My GSD when about a year old received a hiding from me for cutting a ewe from the flock and chasing it off until the sheep lay down. Dog ignored commands to leave and when I got to her (she was not touching the ewe) she was stood there 
barking at it. When I was about 10 feet away from her I called her again and she chose to ignore so, she was given a darn good walloping. She hollered loud, not because I was really hurting her but more in shock. 
Then I got the ewe up and let it go back to the flock which the BC was holding steady and continued, with the GSD also working, to bring them in. 
From that moment she has been brilliant with the sheep and all animals. SHe will catch escaped chickens without harming a feather on them, she will care for orphan lambs, look after friends children that are running around and if someone parks a baby in a pram (stroller) she lays by the side and if the baby awakes she finds someone to go see to it. 
She accepted the punishment because it was fair. It was not so much for chasing the ewe but for defying me when I called her. 

All the dogs run around in the barn. I do not stop them as the horses learn from the experience. The farrier had a 3 year old tied up trimming its feet when the terriers put up a rat which ran under the horse - five terriers, in full cry went after it followed by a BC, GSD and four hound pups. The horse never moved! 

I have little time to actually 'train' the dogs. Everything, the same with the horses, is done in day to day interaction. I always follow through. It is not rocket science to become leader of the pack or herd.


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## reigninseattle (Nov 15, 2012)

AnrewPL said:


> OK, look I didn’t mean to go upsetting you, so sorry if I did. Shooting a dog for biting horses sounds harsh but I suppose it’s a measure of how much I value a horse compared to a dog.
> As for my dog when he was a puppy, when I got him, he was kept at home near the house while I was at work all day, unbeknownst to me a couple of little kids would torment him all day. He was a work dog so he was kept on the chain when he wasn’t working. I found out eventually that the little brats were picking on him, but the damage had already been done, and he had learned to hate children, not his fault, but still made him a risk. I was home one day when one of the kids, not realising I was there, went to torment him and I watched as he went at the kid, who was just outside the range of the chain. I told the brat to ****** off but after that I had to keep him chained up all the time unless he was working, which is pretty standard for work dogs anyway and if there were kids on the place while we were working, to chain him up, not leave him of the chain. When I moved to the city I brought him with me and the first thing I did was escape-proof the back yard and insure that there was somewhere safe and secure (for him) that I could chain him up if I needed to. If I took him out of the yard he was never off the leash and I would muzzle him if he was near any children, which he would just about choke himself on his collar as I held the lead to get at.
> Thing is I’m no dog trainer, I don’t really love dogs, they are OK, but I wouldn’t really go out of my way to get one. And so, knowing I don’t have the knowledge to train a dog, I took precautions to absolutely ensure that he couldn’t hurt anyone; I took that very seriously, I couldn’t live with myself had my dog hurt someone’s kid.


The thing is, he's not a working dog. That doesn't make his behavior acceptable in any way, shape or form, but he's not really around livestock much. I don't live in the country, and if it ends up being necessary to keep him away from horses all the time, it's not impossible for me to do that. It would be annoying and an inconvenience, but not impossible.


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