# Aggressive gelding



## Jophiel (Aug 29, 2013)

Hello all horse lovers!

I've received quite of a problem recently. I've owned a lovely Icelandic gelding for about five months, at least, he was very lovely in the beginning (about four months to be precise.) Good manners in almost everything and I always corrected when he hadn't. Then he just snapped. He suddenly became very aggressive in certain moments (mostly while leading and sometimes in the pasture), but also terrible aggressive to other horses. My mare had to suffer kicks and bites, sometimes he would just randomly charge at her when she was peacefully eating grass far away. And god knows that I've been trying a lot of things. I've herded him until he chews, licks his lips and follows me around. Lunging. Natural horsemanship, but it holds a week, then he snaps again. So obviously my handling must have been terrible, even if I thought he was getting better for every session in the beginning.

He was at the bottom of the hierarchy in his previous herd and he has always been a tour-riding horse, not much handled beneath the saddle I would assume. Then we bought him and another mare. The mare has been no problem even though she was the dominant, snappy and the stubborn one. She turned out lovely after a few sessions. While the gelding just snapped after a few months and became the leader of the herd. Which I found very strange because he is quite easily spooked and the uncertain sort of horse. While the mare is the typical lead mare type.

I'm very befuddled at his sudden personality change and even my trainer tells me to get rid of him as soon as possible. As she thinks he is one of the most problematic cases she has seen during her years. And she has owned an Icelandic horse farm for about twenty years or more.

Despite his sudden aggressive moments, I love him very much. He usually follows me around everywhere and he is very lovely at his good moments. I'm at loss at what to do. But my logical part says that it's best for him to have a more professional owner.

Any suggestions?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

It is either the way he is being handled or could be a medical issue. Have you separated him to see if he is happier? Pain will cause a horse to be spooky and ulcers could also be an issue


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

I read your post a couple of times and there are a few questions that pop into my mind.
How old is he?
What are you feeding him?
Is he boarded or at home with you? Meaning, how much of his daily activity do you actually see or is it limited to barn visits?
And what is his living situation, i.e. stalled, pastured etc. how many other horses with him and is there a clear leader among them?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

The horse hierarchy is always changing. As far as him being aggressive towards you- he believes he is the dominant horse. My new gelding was this way, he wasn't afraid to kick out at a human if you tried to make him do something he didn't want to do. He was pushy while leading, and if you tried to correct him he would come after you. Whips and crops will not work, in fact they will make it worse. A dominant horse is the dominant horse because they can make the other horse's feet move. They only kick if the horse isn't moving. You need to establish you're the dominant horse. What I did with my gelding is I turned him out into the covered arena. I had a lead rope with me, when he found a little tid bit of hay to munch on or stopped, I would approach him, lead rope swinging, arms waving, making loud noises, until he moved. With this you're saying "I'm the dominant one, this is mine, I control your feet". At first I had to get up real close before he would move. But I kept coming, then immediately released when he moved, and stood where I had just moved him from. Eventually he started moving quicker and quicker, he offered to kick several times and mock charged me several times, but I kept coming and I was not afraid. After a while of chasing him off and showing him I'm the dominant horse, his head started lowering, the kicking and charging stopped, he started licking his lips, and I was in charge. A few sessions and he has never challenged me since, and he is an awesome horse. Some horses will just continue to challenge you, the horse hierarchy is constantly changing, some people just don't realize it. A horse under no circumstances should ever be aggressive towards a human, even in the face of pain. What happens if the horse has a wound that you need to treat? And you can't because they're too aggressive? Just sounds to me like he finally found his courage and knows he runs the show. He knows you're afraid of him, so he knows he can go right back to being the dominant horse. This video should help: 





ETA: The horse I had to use this technique on is 17.3 and easily pushing 1400 lbs, and he knew it


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

This could be purely 'behavioural' - ie he just felt comfortable enough by 4 months with you, to tell you & your mare who's boss. Or it could well have a health &/or nutritional component. As stated, could be ulcers or other pain causing him to be crabby. Nutritional imbalance - excess potassium for eg can also cause them to be unpleasant personalities.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

It is typical for horses to act up after a period of time. Once they get settled in the herd and figure out the herds dynamics, they will start to challenge for a higher position. Not all will but several do. If they feel the leader isn't being the leader, they will challenge and take over. It doesn't matter the breed, sex or age. It's a matter of attitude who will be leader.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

loosie said:


> This could be purely 'behavioural' - ie he just felt comfortable enough by 4 months with you, to tell you & your mare who's boss. Or it could well have a health &/or nutritional component. As stated, could be ulcers or other pain causing him to be crabby. Nutritional imbalance - excess potassium for eg can also cause them to be unpleasant personalities.


I felt the need to quote this, so it would be read again. 
Ya, it could be behavioral - but based on the time line it could also be diet based - big time. Nutritional imbalance is a big thing it could be - what does he currently get for feed (in weight)? How often is he fed? Does he have to fight for every meal with the other horses - or is the food well divided and does he have time alone where he can eat without having to defend himself?

Another thing to check out is Lyme Disease or ulcers - both cause pain and discomfort, which could lead to anxiety or aggression.
I was stunned when I found out my spooky mare actually had Lyme and wasn't just spooky cause she wanted to be


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Another thing to check out is Lyme Disease or ulcers - both cause pain and discomfort, which could lead to anxiety or aggression.
> I was stunned when I found out my spooky mare actually had Lyme and wasn't just spooky cause she wanted to be


My 2 geldings have had lyme dease and it can make them agressive and spooky. Lyme dease causes alot of pain and discomfort. So worth looking into the lyme dease thing its very possible. It does cause major attitude changes and not for the better either.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

spirit88 said:


> My 2 geldings have had lyme dease and it can make them agressive and spooky. Lyme dease causes alot of pain and discomfort. So worth looking into the lyme dease thing its very possible. It does cause major attitude changes and not for the better either.


Just adding on to that, it can also cause lasting damage to muscles and behavior, the sooner it's caught and treated the less damage done. My mare unfortunately had it for over a year and a half. SO valuable to get them checked even with the slightest suspicion!


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## Jophiel (Aug 29, 2013)

GreenBackJack said:


> I read your post a couple of times and there are a few questions that pop into my mind.
> How old is he?
> What are you feeding him?
> Is he boarded or at home with you? Meaning, how much of his daily activity do you actually see or is it limited to barn visits?
> And what is his living situation, i.e. stalled, pastured etc. how many other horses with him and is there a clear leader among them?


1. He is 11 years old.
2. We mostly only feed him hay, quite meager hay (both because we have a mare who can easily get laminitis when feed them with "high energized" hay. And I've noticed that he actually becomes even more aggressive/dominant with "high energized" hay.) They have access to a hay net during the whole day, it's only empty during the night and a few hours during the day. All in all they get about 7-8 kilos/horse/day. They don't get pellets or concentrated fodder. But they do get a special mix for Icelandic horses to get "right" amount of minerals and vitamins, which is also good for horses who easily get laminites. And I can also say that he is not food aggressive. I can easily be around, doing whatever while I feed them.
3. He is at home with me, so I see quite a lot of him except on the weekends. He gets regular exercise at least one hour/day. As he has usually great riding manners. But I'm not always the one exercising or feeding him as I'm studying for a psychologist in a city 2 hours away, aka, I'm not able to be there 24/7. You are actually safer on his back than around him on the ground. At least for the moment. 
4. Loose housing. He can be as much out in the pasture as he wishes. And right know it's just him and the mare as he is too aggressive against other friends' horses that we wish to add to the herd. I would say that he has been the clear leader for a month since he "snapped/became dominant", but he is still very aggressive to the mare. We have even tried to separate the gelding to get his own pasture, but he has extreme separation anxiety. He gets very very fidgety being alone. Probably because he's afraid to lose his leader position.

And concerning the dominant part, most of me has always believed it's a dominant problem. But it seems it doesn't matter how many times I establish my alpha position (chasing him away, moving his feet, etc. until he chews, licks lips, etc), he constantly challenges my position (at least after a week-ish). He's like a ticking bomb. One minute calm, the other one aggressive. I've never had such problems with establishing my alpha position. Either it just takes hell a lot of months for him to accept my role or he will just always see me as weak and puny human which would lead to a constant challenging horse. 
In some regard, it might be also the fact that I'm not always around which makes me a very "loose" leader? I lose my role as I'm not there to protect and guide them? I've no idea anymore. And I'm at the edge at giving up, sadly.
But I will check with the vet for diseases!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Jophiel said:


> But it seems it doesn't matter how many times I establish my alpha position (chasing him away, moving his feet, etc. until he chews, licks lips, etc), he constantly challenges my position (at least after a week-ish).


I don't know what stage of study you're at in psychology or whether you have/will learn behavioural psych/behaviourist theory, but I highly recommend you do, to learn how best to reinforce/punish his behaviours most effectively.

And put some time into studying equine behaviour/ethology, to learn the differences of horse psychology. One of the things about the 'dominance theory' is that it was based on wolves, not horses. 

Dominance in horse society is indeed a transient thing & some horses are always ready to challenge it. On the other hand, there are respected herd leaders. While they do assert themselves when needed, they don't tend to feel the need to 'dominate' & tend to lead more in the ways of leading the herd to water/food/safety. I don't personally focus on dominance but do aim to be a good leader for my horses. Of course, 'obedience' and 'respect' are part of that too. 2 people come to mind who have described the leadership role & difference of dominance well IMO. They are Mark Rashid, who calls it 'Passive Leadership' and Carolyn Resnick.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

This is just a guess but how do the others that feed and handle him deal with him? If they don't treat him strictly like a leader, anything you do accomplish will go down the drain. If they back away when he acts up, he is learning that he is higher than humans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When you move his feet, make him move laterally or backwards and make him hustle. Whack him with a stick or rope to keep him moving. If he's running backwards you need to run and keep driving him backwards. He'll stop when he really wants to rest. When he's standing quietly, licking or head lowering, eye blinking, use whatever was in your hand to rub his back and rump. You will have just shown him how you can make his life miserable with unwanted behaviour. Be sure to be consistent with this. It's hard work for you but your efforts will pay off. So many times people train unwanted behaviour into their horse by stopping the correction and petting the horse so as not to upset it. To get results, you want to upset the horse and keep upsetting him until he begs you to stop.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

OP - Are you in Iceland? I'm not sure if you have lyme disease there.. 

How does your trainer handle him and what does she say about your handling/timing? If he was previously a tour horse, it's very possible that he was used to far more exercise than he is getting now and so is feeling his oats so to speak with the decrease in exercise. 

If I were you, I would check for any pain or medical issues and if there were no issues there I would probably find him a home with someone who is very experienced in dealing with a horse like him. He isn't something I would personally want to deal with everyday. There are a ton of good horses in the world and unless you are absolutely in love with him I don't see any reason to risk yourself (and other people) daily with a horse that is snapping. That's just my opinion, I will deal with and have dealt with several issues with my horses that probably would've made someone else sell them, but I won't deal with aggression from a horse towards a human. Just not my cup of tea. Of course, when I read "aggression" I'm thinking of a horse that is actively trying to hurt you, not the little pushy dominance deals that most horses do when transitioning owners. 

Also, everything everyone else is suggesting are good ideas, but if your timing and reading of body language isn't spot on you could make the problem significantly worse. Whatever you do just be careful and make sure you are doing it correctly. Or hire someone to work with you and your horse.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

Thank you for answering my questions Jophiel. 
As always pain and health issues have to be ruled out. 
Barring that, I'd say he's actually quite insecure. I'm guessing he's probably never been in a situation where he was feeling more or less on his own and more rested. He's actually just about right on track time-wise for the previous training/conditions to be wearing off and you're just now seeing the horse you actually have. 

Flashy agressiveness is often mistaken for leadership. There can often be two "leaders" in a herd. One is the mature quiet leader who is fair and calm, leads the herd to safety, food and water, etc. The other is the agressive dominate. He's typically imature, reactive and spooky. That sounds like your guy here. In a wild herd he's going to get his butt kicked by a wiser, smarter leader willing to do the butt kicking he needs. And yet this punk will continue to struggle from time to time with his quest for dominance. Eventually he'll settle his butt down or he'll get kicked out and have to find a new herd. 

The people version of this is you work him silly till he's licking and chewing and following you around for a week or so then have to do it all over again and or you eventually sell him. *and as you've said yourself it's only a matter of time before he's acting like this under saddle. Not good.

If he were my horse and I loved him I wouldn't be happy with those options. 

*1.* He's probably a lot smarter than he's been given credit or opportunity to show.
*2*. Dominance is not the same thing as leadership. Compliance is not the same as trust and he's showing he doesn't trust you.
*3.* No one else in the "herd" is stepping up to be the leader so he is filling the void and he sucks at it.

Suggestions:
*1.* less ride time and more ground time.
*2.* less focus on traditional round penning. More focus on finding ways to engage his mind. That will tire him out faster and make him pay attention to you closer than any lunge whip will. 
*3.* look into agility training etc. This is an excellent book with 100 different exercises for your horse which are very well explained and with clear pictures of every step. Jutta Wiemers Leading to Liberty
*4. *Consistancy and time. He needs genuine leadership and a challenging job to redirect his energy and reassure him. 
Then I bet you'll find that you truly do have a pretty amazing horse there!


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## Jophiel (Aug 29, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your answers and suggestions, it's appreciated a lot!
I will try your suggestions before I make my final decision


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Contrary to popular belief, the more your drive the horse away, the more it will try to be with you. Making him hustle to back is not only making him miserable but it is also driving him away. It's rarely a fix after the first time, but rarely more than a third time. By then his unwanted behaviour will be fixed and he'll stick to you like glue.


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