# Kicking while mounting? HELP!



## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Okay, so we got an angel horse who had previously been on a dude ranch, worked everyday, in parades, on dude strings, hunting, mountain rides, arenas, competitions, etc etc. She was perfect for a while, I would stand up on her back , gallop without holding on, ride bareback, put hydrogen perioxide and bandages on her feet when they got scraped up, saddle her up, braid her hair, and do several other things without any problems, whatsoever. Then, we got 2 more horses and suddenly she bullies them 24/7, kicks at us when we are mounting, won't line up to the fence to mount, and tries to bite us when we cinch her up. Please help! I just want my sweet calm angel back!!:twisted:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

How do you react when she does these thing? How do you cinch her up? I suspect that she is taking her new status as herd leader and trying to apply it to you. That is why she is walking off, and kicking when mounted. I would guess that she has tried this a few times and been successful in smaller acts of disobedience and this is for her the next logical step and to you a big problem. I would start with nothing in life is free, which means she has do what you want or work. My gelding tried to walk of while I was mounting, so that became our lesson. I spent 15 to 30 minutes one day after a ride getting on and getting off. As soon as he stood nicely that was the last time and he got to go have time off. 

If you cinch her up quickly she may be anticipating that pain, sort of like if you eat a giant thanksgiving meal and then tighten your belt really quick. So, tighten the cinch in stages if you don't already. 

A third option but less likely one is ulcers. If your horse is standing for long periods of time in the stall they may be stressed and getting ulcers. Which a veterinarian would be able to check for.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sounds like she forgot her manners in her effort to be the herd leader of the other horses that moved in on her territory and is showing all of you, humans included, who rules. Correct every aggressive behavior she displays when she is under your control, out in the pasture, she can play boss. In order to get your angel back, you are going to have to teach her in no uncertain terms that humans are the boss and no aggression can be towards them or other horses when she being ridden or tied or led.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

rookie said:


> How do you react when she does these thing? How do you cinch her up? I suspect that she is taking her new status as herd leader and trying to apply it to you. That is why she is walking off, and kicking when mounted. I would guess that she has tried this a few times and been successful in smaller acts of disobedience and this is for her the next logical step and to you a big problem. I would start with nothing in life is free, which means she has do what you want or work. My gelding tried to walk of while I was mounting, so that became our lesson. I spent 15 to 30 minutes one day after a ride getting on and getting off. As soon as he stood nicely that was the last time and he got to go have time off.
> 
> If you cinch her up quickly she may be anticipating that pain, sort of like if you eat a giant thanksgiving meal and then tighten your belt really quick. So, tighten the cinch in stages if you don't already.
> 
> A third option but less likely one is ulcers. If your horse is standing for long periods of time in the stall they may be stressed and getting ulcers. Which a veterinarian would be able to check for.


We cinch her up slowly, a hole, then a rest, a hole then a rest. When she kicks or moves, I slap her or if it is really bad, get the whip out. One day I spent a whole hour lining her up to the fence, trying to mount and if she moved, slapped her, walked her back and tried again until she finally let me on, but now she does it more.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> When she kicks or moves, *I slap her* or if it is really bad, *get the whip out*. One day I spent a whole hour lining her up to the fence, trying to mount and if she moved, *slapped her*, walked her back and tried again until she finally let me on, but *now she does it more*.


Cause and effect are inexorably intertwined here. You wouldn't believe how easy it is and how fast a good horse can get wrecked when you're not aware that you're the one doing it. Unbelievably fast. If you really tried you could wreck even a good one in about 10 minutes. But your particular method for fixing the problem is most likely the cause and when a rider continues down this road too long they usually end up getting hurt because eventually the horse is going to get rid of you. So it may be a good idea to start considering a more intellectual, less punitive approach. :wink:


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Ian McDonald said:


> Cause and effect are inexorably intertwined here. You wouldn't believe how easy it is and how fast a good horse can get wrecked when you're not aware that you're the one doing it. Unbelievably fast. If you really tried you could wreck even a good one in about 10 minutes. But your particular method for fixing the problem is most likely the cause and when a rider continues down this road too long they usually end up getting hurt because eventually the horse is going to get rid of you. So it may be a good idea to start considering a more intellectual, less punitive approach. :wink:


I used to not ever hit a horse, I thought it was rude and my love for horses gets in the way, but then I learned from people I ride with that if you do not show them YOU ARE the dominant, they will be and the only way to show them that is to treat them how they would treat the other horses if they were dominant.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

You are right that you need to get the horses' respect, but the whip and slapping is not typically the most effective way. I would suggest you might want some help before you ruin your horse, if you haven't already. I can tell you how I correct moving when mounting, but if you have not done basic groundwork with your horse you most likely will not do it correctly. When you are learning you really need someone to help you because timing is everything as well as your body position and language. If one of those is not right, you may just confuse the horse further. It s WAS overused, but still IMO a good principle to always think about how you can help the horse do the right thing by making it easier and more appealing to do the right thing instead of wrong. For example, if my horse moves at the mounting block I make him move his butt around me (I do not move) and typically it only take a couple minutes and he decides to stand, because to stand is easier than working, right?. But, like I said-I have done basic groundwork with him so that he knows if I point he best move his butt in that direction NOW.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

She is not ruined, we are going to separate them and see if that helps her behavior. She is still a good kids horse, it is just getting on. Once you are on, she is the best horse in the world. (At least in my opinion) So, what procedure would you recommend for getting her to stop kicking us? Also, if my dad is out there holding her reins, she doesn't dare to. She will move her weight like she is going to but won't actually do it, but as soon as he goes inside, she is back to kicking.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thank you btw


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Any horse that kicks me gets an INSTANT reaction. They need to think they are going to DIE for about 3 seconds. Swift, hard and fast. Much like a boss mare would do. Like I said-over in about 3 seconds, and back to normal like nothing happened. Not slapping that is for sure. Exactly what I do depends on what I have available. I have been known to kick them hard as I can. Still-nothing CLOSE to what another horse would do. Lots of noise, animation (flailing arms; look a fool.....while hoping none is videoing......lol) If you know when she kicks you can set her up and go after her. If she does it again the next time-you were not tough enough or your timing was too slow.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Should she be disciplined? Of course but you also need to figure out the why here. 

This was a mare who was very well behaved before and has started to be very disrespectful. I suspect there have been some handling and rider errors along the way that have gradually taught this mare that acting this way is acceptable, however they were small things at first that went pretty much unnoticed. 

Is she sore anywhere and does her saddle fit properly? Those two things can make even the best horses act out. 

Next, how do you mount? 

Correct: Notice that Warwick is close to the horse and grabs mane and saddle horn. He steps up then swings his leg over. When he is halfway on, he's over the horses center of balance, thus giving the horse no reason to move. 






And of course I can't find a video when I need it on an incorrect way. However I see many many people mount by grabbing the saddle horn and the cantle, thus standing perpendicular to their horse. They then get their foot in the stirrup and pull themselves on. This completely unbalances a horse, causes a saddle to roll and digs that saddle into the shoulders of the horse. Even a well trained horse often moves when people mount in a similar way to this. Over time that can progress to making a horse fore and the horse getting progressively more irritated about a rider mounting. 

All of that said, just slapping your horse is doing no good as you are finding out. 

Instead, put those feet to work, ASAP as soon as you even see an ear pin. Put your horse in a rope halter if you have one with a long training lead. Now go through your mounting steps. Can you get to your horses barrel without her getting ****y? Can you place your hands in the appropriate spots? Can you raise your foot to the stirrup? Can you place your foot in the stirrup? Can you step halfway on? Can you swing your leg over? 

When you find the point that the answer becomes no and she even thinks about kicking, go to her butt using your leadrope in your right hand and whack her on the butt, making her hindquarters move away from you, when she is moving calmly and not in a irritated fashion, let her rest. During this, keep your left hand at about shoulder level, so if she goes to run her shoulders into you, you can use your hand to send her back out. Then try again.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

That's a good video. Notice that Warwick said that you've got no business trying to get on a horse who kicks, but that you should go back to groundwork to get that ironed out first.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

^ I agree, if this was my horse, I wouldn't even think about mounting for a while, however the more I give advice the less I give. Way too often I get "Well I don't have time for all of that, and that isn't even what I asked." 

If people express interest, by all means I write more and explain things better from the beginning, otherwise I address only what was asked as much as I can.


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## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Back her up aggressively!! Make her think that you are really serious and she best move it! She's testing you to see if she has to listen to you or not........


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Okay, thank you. We will try that. Last night, my dad went out and when she kicked at me he yelled and hit her, got her to rear up and when I got back over there, she kind of moved away a bit but did not kick or anything.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Also, I don't think it is the way we are mounting that is the problem, if I try to mount her from a fence where I just land softly in the saddle without being on her side at all, she tries her best to get away. Once I am in the saddle, she knows whos boss, any fight on the saddle I can win, it is just the ground that is this way. When she has fought in the saddle, I have won easily but as soon as I am on the ground she thinks she is in charge again?


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

That right there answers all the questions- you need to STOP riding her and do ground work because that is where you are having difficulties handling her. She may be listening to your dad more because he is probably bigger than you and can more easily make his presence known, the mare knows she can't get away with her antics when he's around, so make it that she can't get away with them when you're around too. 

Everyone always overlooks groundwork because riding is just so much fun and thrilling.. But if this keeps up you will not be able to get on her to ride ever, then you have an even bigger danger on your hands. Please please start doing some more groundwork to gain some respect from this mare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I understand I need to do that, and I have tried, honest. I react in the same way as my dad but the difference is that when she rears with me, the rope rips through my hands, giving me major rope burn and letting her get away which doesn't help. I don't have the strength to hold onto a startled horse like her so I don't really know what to do in that aspect.


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## Cowgirlupswish (Oct 24, 2013)

When my horse kicked or reared up while mounting I would grab him and back him up if he continued I would get the lung line and lung him. After he realized that if he let me mount he would not have to work hard he was fine


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Well and I would do that, but she is such a horse when you slap her, her eyes go wide and she rears and kinda stomped at my dad last night. I wouldn't want to get any closer to those front hooves than I have to!!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Op-I really don't want to sound rude, but many of the suggestions here have been met with why you cannot do that.....and why your horse is a "speshul" case. (for example, you cannot hold her, she strikes, etc......LOTS of excuses) We ALL deal with that when dealing with a disrespectful horse, at some point or another, and some are worse than others. From your reading all of this I cannot help but think that she has your number. And, if you don't get some help, you will soon find yourself with more trouble than you bargained for. Guaranteed. From your posts I get the impression you are afraid of her on the ground, and that is NEVER a good situation. Part of being a good horse person is knowing when you are out horsed and stepping back and letting someone help you.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I wouldn't back her up, it's just asking for her to flip over. This isn't a horse you should be riding at all if rearing is in her bag of tricks. As I suspected, she isn't wonderful under saddle either if you're having to fight her. It's only a matter of time before these increasingly bad ground manners translate to under saddle. 

Honestly, talk to your dad about getting a trainer to come help you a couple times a week, it will be the safest thing for everyone involved. If your father is reluctant about the costs, get him to think about what the costs would be if his daughter got seriously injured. I'm not saying this to scare you, just open your eyes. There is nothing embarrassing about being in over your head, everyone has been there, however to get past it you do need a trainer to come out in person and show you how to overcome these obstacles with your mare in a safe manner. 

Now, that being said, if your father won't have someone come help you I am happy to help as any help is better than none. Just a warning, it's going to be quite long to read because I don't leave steps out.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

First off.. If you get rope burn...put gloves on!

Then, put a hard had on.

Then, get a long lead rope with a leather end, or get a short sturdy crop.

And work her from the ground.

Pressure release.

Get her to drop her head. She doesn't budge a step until her head is dropped. 

Every turn you take, you turn her away from you. 

If you back up, you stand in front and to the side.

Either this horse is in pain, or she is being a complete cow.

A slap on the side is nothing to a horse who spends her day double barreling, or being double barreled.

Your dad needs to do it, you need to do it. You both need to be doing the same thing.

The people who have given you responses know what they are talking about. As someone who has spent a lot of time dealing with problem horses, stallions and youngsters, I can honestly advise you not to get in the saddle until you have this sour little mare back to how she started.

I have broken enough bones for everyone on this forum, and I wish someone had taken the time to sit me down and tell me you don't get on a horse that boots you as you mount, or hang on till the bronc finishes. Please heed the good advise you have been given! Horses area ell different, but they all eat, sleep and poop. Likewise, mentality wise they have the built in flight, herd animal instinct. You need to become the herd leader.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-I have been watching a blog on FB on Stacy Westfalls page. She is just starting to lunge a 2 yr old colt. You may find some helpful hints there. She is wearing gloves, and he is pulling her around a fair bit, but it will give you an idea of where to place your body/arms/etc to be as safe and effective as possible. I still recommend you get help, but, in the absence of it.......guess this is better than nothing.


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## Mikhala (Oct 23, 2013)

I haven't read all posts, so maybe this was addressed, but are the new horses geldings? is it possible she is in heat?


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

Has a vet seen her? (Sorry if you already said -- I didn't see you mention it) 

I'm no pro, but this issue seems like something more serious than a new social role taken too far. I would understand if this horse became pushy and tested you when the new horses came, but it seems unlikely that an "angel" would suddenly become not just disrespectful but _dangerous_ this quickly. To be kicking and biking and "stomping" (!!!)seems like a personality 180, which is a huge health red flag.

Yes, sometimes horses get out of line because of changes or rider behavior and need to be corrected firmly, but if pretty much the world's best horse suddenly loses it when you're dealing with related actions (mounting, preparing to mount, cinching...before you mount) but is fine on the ground, that seems to point pretty directly to another issue.

Whatever it is, I would not be getting on a horse that so suddenly became violent when I try to mount. Whether it's pain or bad behavior, one or both of you seems pretty likely to get hurt.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I suggest the book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" by Bill Dorrance & co-written by Leslie Desmond.

All that a horse has to go on is the feel that a human offers, & the human must feel of the horse FIRST, not demand that the horse say, "YESSIR!" first. You've said that the slapping/heavy consequences don't work with her, so please don't do more of same, & instead, start at the start, which is "feeling of the horse" first, or as Parelli says, Friendly Game, which is the MOST important game.

You could turn things around by feeling of her/being friendly first, because that makes you a leader in her eyes, rather than a predator or as it seems to be now, just an annoying creature. 

There are good home study programs out there which give you step-by-step instructions, which might work out well for you, if you've no one to mentor you.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thank you all so much! I have always been very gentle with her until she started doing this, in fact, since she started doing this was the first time that I actually had to hit her hard. Before this, she was the kind of horse that my mom put her baby on and my pregnant aunt got on with her toddler! She has always been very trusted but now we are not so sure... I know she trusts me a lot because she usually lets me do just about anything with her. In fact, just the other day while I was riding, I noticed some burrs stuck onto her fur on the belly and she sat still and let me tug them off of her without a problem, which meant leaning out of the saddle and sticking my hand in between her um... aww... brain freeze... the places underneath her legs and stomach, the kind of armpit...  Sorry, I can't think of the name right now, I usually know almost all of their parts. Anyways, she didn't even flinch and like I said before, I could pour hydrogen perioxide on her feet. We have not taken her in for a vet visit. I think that could be possible, the other day when I rode, we hadn't gone for a mile yet and no trotting or running and she was already snorting and puffing. Usually she does not start doing that until at least 3 miles. When I lead her, she is the perfect angel, no dragging, head tossing, following my cues for back, forward, side, turn, etc perfectly. It is just the saddling and mounting. I just really want this to stop. We don't have money for a trainer, although my dad had a couple of horse expert friend who may be willing to help out in this area. I will talk to him about it! Thank you all for helping!


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh, also the new horses we got are a broodmare/riding mare, and her almost 6 month old colt. I would not think it would be her going into heat because it has lasted for weeks now.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Op-I really don't want to sound rude, but many of the suggestions here have been met with why you cannot do that.....and why your horse is a "speshul" case. (for example, you cannot hold her, she strikes, etc......LOTS of excuses) We ALL deal with that when dealing with a disrespectful horse, at some point or another, and some are worse than others. From your reading all of this I cannot help but think that she has your number. And, if you don't get some help, you will soon find yourself with more trouble than you bargained for. Guaranteed. From your posts I get the impression you are afraid of her on the ground, and that is NEVER a good situation. Part of being a good horse person is knowing when you are out horsed and stepping back and letting someone help you.


Well, I know it just sounds like a bunch of excuses to you, but a couple weeks ago, I was kicked and was rushed to the emergency room for 7 stitches and I would rather avoid that. I am scared to death of a horses hooves now. If they step on me, okay, I can deal with that, but being kicked again.... You have to understand, before this year, I had just rode about once or twice a month, if that. Since this year, about everyday, but I am still just a little girl with no idea what to do and terrified of what a horse CAN do, given the chance.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

So you have 3 horses, a 6 mo old colt is one of them, and no $$ for a trainer? Yikes. Good luck, and I would be separating that colt from the mares pretty soon......I really hope I have misunderstood.:?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Don't separate her from the others. Despite the fact she's bossing the others and one of the horses inevitably will, she needs to be in with them. Otherwise she will spend the day running the fence and before long she'll have run off a hundred pounds or so. Lone horses fear predators and even a small herd of 2 others offers her security.


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## KatieQ (Apr 4, 2011)

Good for you for asking questions and seeking advice! I know that sometimes it is hard to put into practice, or even understand people's suggestions when they are not demonstrated. Is there any chance you or your parents can afford to get a trainer in to help you out, even a few times to try to get this problem under control? Yes, a horse CAN do a lot of damage so getting a professional's help with this would probably be a good idea IMO.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I am going to talk to my dad about having his friend who is a horse trainer come over. We had horses before these who were too much for us and he came over a couple times and really helped with some of the ground work so if he can come over that will help us a lot. They are good enough friends that at least for those times, he did not charge us.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

I really wouldn't ride her until the vet sees her. Her behavior is screaming health issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Obviously what you are doing isn't working, everyone here has said do more ground work but it doesn't sound like you are willing to try. Reminds me of a neighbor who used to ride with us with her horse............you can't win by trying to hold her by the lead......get a long line and let her move but keep at her, if you don't you will have a horse that is dangerous and like my neighbor no one wants to ride with her/her horse because it's a matter of time before someone gets hurt.....



Ebonyisforme said:


> I understand I need to do that, and I have tried, honest. I react in the same way as my dad but the difference is that when she rears with me, the rope rips through my hands, giving me major rope burn and letting her get away which doesn't help. I don't have the strength to hold onto a startled horse like her so I don't really know what to do in that aspect.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Ugh.. it just frustrates me so much that one day she can be the best horse ever and the next a royal pain in the butt.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Ugh.. it just frustrates me so much that one day she can be the best horse ever and the next a royal pain in the butt.


I have to step in here...

You have a horse, not a machine.

You have a mare, you are also female and get hormonal!

I am not putting the blame directly on your doorstep, but your methods of correction have allowed this to go further. 

Horses have good and bad days just as much as humans do..


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

You're frustrated because you don't know what to do; only knowledge & skill improvement will alleviate the frustration, but in the meantime, allowing yourself to get angry shows your horse that you aren't her leader. All horses are looking for a good leader, so when you don't offer the leadership to her, you're not supplying her needs. Not supplying her needs is unfair to HER.

You should never even think that a horse is being a pain in the ****, because you've then got bad attitude which horse will see & reduce you to "not my leader" status, in the twinkling of an eye. Horses don't have problems, except when people get in the way; horses aren't naughty, they're just horses.

Bill's book doesn't cost that much & it's often available used online, & it's a huge book with lots of pics.


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## jackboy (Jul 8, 2012)

This is how i would fix the mounting issues when she acts up grab the inside rein pull her head in tight to you and get after her rear making her do small circles around you about 5 to 10 of them stop try to mount if she acts up repeat it wont take no time to fix thats a promise she never wins get it you are the boss


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Maybe after sometime in her new saddle she has started to get sore. That would be my guess. Horses just are well behaved and then start acting out.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> I used to not ever hit a horse, I thought it was rude and my love for horses gets in the way, but then I learned from people I ride with that if you do not show them YOU ARE the dominant, they will be and the only way to show them that is to treat them how they would treat the other horses if they were dominant.


I understand. When I started I didn't want to hit the horses either and then I learned how to. I went through the same kind of thinking for several years in part because of what I learned from others who were thinking and doing things that way and it's taken me about a decade to un-learn it. May I suggest that I believe your original instinct was the better one and share with you one big thing that helped turn me around the right way again? I started to look at people like Tom Dorrance and his brother Bill, who were little old men when they were at the peak of their horsemanship and physically could not enforce their will on a horse anymore. I realized that those guys didn't even have the physical ability to get rough at all and yet the things that they could do far surpassed these more dominance-oriented type approaches. Once I started down that road there was no turning back and the rewards continue to be well-worth the effort. Besides, you can't hit a horse hard enough to get his respect. You can't knock him out or physically restrain him except for what he _wants to let you_ and all you'll do is lose his trust and earn his suspicion, resentment, fear, and all of those other things that make it extremely hazardous to your health to then put yourself in such a vulnerable position as sitting on his back.

It doesn't fit everyone, but I can promise you that it feels so much better in every single way than what I was doing before - and I could force a horse to bend to my will as effectively as any horse-fighter you've ever seen. Which isn't an easy thing to admit, but it's such a common story that it seems like a dis-service to the horse not to talk about it. But yeah, if what you're learning to do goes against your grain then I say drop it. Better ways are out there to find for those who seek!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> ... It doesn't fit everyone, *BUT IT FITS* *EVERY HORSE!* ...but I can promise you that it feels so much better in every single way than what I was doing before - and I could force a horse to bend to my will as effectively as any horse-fighter you've ever seen. Which isn't an easy thing to admit, but it's such a common story that it seems like a dis-service to the horse not to talk about it. But yeah, if what you're learning to do goes against your grain then I say drop it. Better ways are out there to find for those who seek!


Fantastic post, Ian! I just had to fix that one sentence!


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## Horselover503 (Oct 26, 2013)

I suggest that every time she kicks leave her alone for a minute or two and carry on doing this, she will eventually get bored.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

It could be in the back and forth tussling with the other horses that one of them landed a kick to her rib area and broke or cracked one.

If so? I'd kick too. And move away.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You can try a technique called clouding. ie carry on like you are going to mount and let her kick. Step back a step, then "mount" again. She will get tired of kicking as long as you can outlast her. Do it a few more times after she's quit kicking then mount up. She may not be fixed just yet, but do this each time you want to ride and she'll give it up. A week or a month later she may test you as horses do that so be mindful of it so you don't get kicked.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I will try that Jackboy. Thank you all so much!


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