# Why I Gotta Trot



## gottatrot

*Amore: The Early Years*

Amore was my first horse. I bought her when she was 12 years old, and now she is 24. 
She has taught me more than I realized a horse could teach a person. 
The first thing she taught me was to throw the book away, it did not apply to her.

When I went shopping for my first horse, I was completely open-minded about what age, gender, breed, or level of training to buy. Although I had not trained a horse myself, I felt confident that I was experienced enough, having ridden many horses and even very green and young ones. Having read thousands of horse books and magazines, I knew of many training methods. I’d ridden quite a few breeds of horses, and knew positive things about many of them as well as their faults. So when I saw a beautiful, 14.2 hand bay mare, age 12 with no real training, it did not deter me. Her conformation faults were minor, she had good bone and pretty movement. She was very, very sweet. A blank slate, if you will, seemed to be a positive thing.

We bought Amore on Valentine’s day, and her star was shaped like a heart. A sweet little horse, she didn’t know how to lead without stepping on you but her eyes were big and doe-like in their innocence. How hard could this be?

Two words to describe Amore: Innocent, terrified. 
She literally knew nothing. She’d always lived on one small property, with her mother and older half-sister. Soon after we met, Amore opened her mouth, looked at me blankly and set her teeth on my arm. Since biting is one of those “cardinal sins” for horses, I shouted, slapped her neck, got big and scary. You’ve never seen a horse so surprised. She literally almost fell down, scrambled to the back of her stall and stood with her face in the corner, shaking. She stood there for quite a few minutes, peeking around to see if I was going to attack her again. She never tried biting again, but I learned that my reactions did not need to be so strong with this horse.

For the next year, I learned a lot about fearful horses. Following every step I knew to desensitize a horse, I taught Amore to lunge, be saddled, lead, learn the aids. She stood with the saddle on and cinched, I flapped the leather around and pulled it side to side, and she had no problem with it. 
I planned to let her walk a few steps and lunge her, but that first step was a doozy. I’ve rarely seen a horse that could buck like her. She would twist and put her head between her legs and kick her heels over her head. Over and over and over. Once or twice she somersaulted clear over. 

Being extremely stubborn, I thought twice about what was going to happen when I rode this mare but still got on her once she seemed fine lunging with the saddle on. The trick with Amore was that you’d think she was used to something, until one day she wasn’t. This little horse was so willing. She’d try and was so teachable and pliable as long as she wasn’t frightened. 

Well, I kept riding. We started in a bosal and Western saddle. We’d ride for a few days and she kept progressing, building on what she knew. Then something would startle her and she’d buck just like I’d seen her do when I wasn’t on her. It didn’t matter if you were riding or leading or if Amore was in her stall. If she panicked, her mind was gone. 
After several months and getting bucked off quite a few times, the trainer at the barn where I boarded suggested I might try a six ring martingale. By now I’d had an accident with the bosal and switched over to a simple snaffle, which seemed to give clearer messages to Amore. Later I learned that my bosal did not fit properly, which meant the release was not fast enough, which led to the day I kept spinning in circles on my horse so fast I almost lost my lunch, and decided to change to a snaffle.

The martingale was a great tip. For the first time, I caught Amore right at the moment of panic and stopped the buck from beginning. Hopping off, I was able to calm my mare from the ground. For my part, I was by now taking lessons from the trainer and learning some new things such as long lining, and watching as she trained other horses. I was even managing to stay on sometimes for several bucks, before getting launched off my horse. But they were impossible to ride out. 

Now that I’ve ridden and trained many other horses, I understand what made Amore so difficult in the beginning. Her reaction to a stimulus was less than one second, literally. If she saw or heard something frightening, by the time I heard it or felt her tense up, she was already bucking. I’ve not ridden a horse with such a fast explosion point since. If you did the wrong thing, her full-blown panic would happen instantaneously.

The trainer I was working with was an Arab trainer. She was helpful, but she and others said many times in the first several years with my mare that she was lucky to have me. I didn’t see it that way. I felt if my horse wasn’t learning, I was doing something wrong. I felt that there had to be a key to getting past her fear, if I could only find it.


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## gottatrot

*Amore: Part Two*

Since I am so stubborn, and will not give up on a horse, I kept riding Amore. Once her experiences allowed her to wait a second or two before panicking at every sudden sight or sound, the bucking quickly resolved (well, after I got bucked off a few dozen times). A couple of times she bolted, but soon that became rare. Her spooks were frequent and serious, and often unseated me. 

After a few months of riding, we began going out on rides off the horse property where I boarded, and began showing. I’d started taking hunt seat lessons, and showed in English classes. Amore and I went to clinics, and rode out with other people. By now I just expected that I’d be coming off my horse fairly often, and it didn’t bother me too much. Somehow I’d never broken any bones, and after three concussions started wearing a helmet, so those stopped happening too. Many people let me ride their horses, which was a relief since falling off my horse so much made me feel like I was a bad rider. But I found other horses easier to ride and never came off of them. My trainer didn’t care to ride my horse either. 

Now came a period of time where we moved to some new locations, had lots of riding experiences, more lessons, shows, and I rode lots of other horses. Something that began happening was that fellow boarders needed help with their horses. So many people around me were afraid of their horses and could not understand their horses’ motivations. I was learning a lot by riding and assessing many horses. Some were in pain, too little exercise/too much energy, bad tack, and some were just being horses. People thought their horses were plotting to harm them, behaved as if they had a magical bond with their horse like the Black Stallion or other fictional stories, or were so afraid of their horse they would only do ground work, over and over until the horse’s eyes glazed over with boredom. 


What I saw was horses…each one had a distinct personality, and they all had the same motivations. Food, rest, outlet for energy, curiosity, social interest, run from danger. If other horses are running, you probably should too. Find your place in the herd. Yet each horse was so unique too, and all their life experiences played into who they were. 

During this time I put Amore through some serious bomb-proof training with full courses and dedicated some time to lots of exposure training. By the time I’d had her four years, I decided she would never be a solid trail horse, and that she’d always spook and be afraid of going out alone.

When Amore was 16, we moved again and my new barn’s owners changed everything for me and helped my horse life tremendously. 


These women boarded horses only because they wanted people to ride with. Within a couple of days after moving my horse in, they asked me if I would go for a ride. I explained to them that my mare was a little spooky and might walk a bit fast, things that had deterred other people from riding with me sometimes. 



They launched into stories about their horses and how one of their mares had come to them at age 20, and for the first months riding her she’d rear every few feet during a ride. They said she also sometimes bolted off, but they felt it was fairly controllable by now. It turned out these gals were stubborn like me, gave horses the benefit of the doubt like me, and felt it was the human’s fault if a horse had learned bad behaviors. 

We went for a ride, and Amore was like a kitten compared to their hot-blooded horses. She pranced a little, and one of them laughed as her horse began dancing sideways rapidly in return. 

For the first time in my life, riding felt like an exciting adventure and these women sat on their horses like centaurs and always asked, “Ready?” before galloping off without waiting for an answer. I wanted to be just like them, so I held on tightly and Amore didn’t spook or do anything at all besides try to keep up with the flying white mare in front of us that she now worshipped as her leader.

Until now, I’d thought I was brave. I’d been riding a horse that was spooky. Big deal. These gals were riding these big, super fit, snorting horses up and down the mountains, jumping logs and bushes and half the time they’d just throw a bareback pad on. It was either fall off or ride, so I rode. 



The first time we cantered on a winding trail through the deep sand dunes at the beach, I had ditched my western saddle to ride English like my new friends. I was behind the other three riders, and kept almost falling off while marveling at how they rode so easily through the deep footing around sharp corners doing flying lead changes.


We kept on riding together for several more years. Soon, I’d ridden all of their challenging horses and we’d trained some others together, and next thing I knew Amore was going out and still spooking, but she wasn’t that difficult to ride anymore. I’d transcended her. Now my confidence pulled her along, and we could go along the highway, out alone, over jumps, anything. My friends rode her easily too. 



One day I found myself galloping Amore up the mountain, bareback, and I realized things were different and I finally knew how to ride. Now, in my 30s, after so many lessons, and horses, and books, and years. It was a mixture of learning the right techniques, riding the right horses, and being given a push far out of my comfort zone to learn real confidence. 



This was when I met my second horse, Valhalla.


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## gottatrot

Taking a break from the summary of my past with horses...fast forward to the present:

Today there was a break from the wind and rain storm we've been having for a couple of days. My current boarding barn does not have an indoor arena. In the past, I've used the winter as incentive to tune up the horses and work on some things that have been neglected during the rest of the year. Recently I've realized that some things have been slipping due to only going out on beach or trail rides, so I decided it would be good for me to show some discipline and try to do some arena work. 

We have an outdoor arena that has enough room for cantering. It was placed over a grass footing, which had been churned up and was a bit rough. Recently some wood chips/hog fuel footing was put down around the perimeter, so I decided to try it out.

Valhalla was sick most of last winter and spring. Over those months, I learned many new things. First, we dealt with ulcers, healing them and putting weight back on. After that I learned about Vitamin E deficiency and how it can seriously affect a horse. Halla had severe muscle weakness and uncoordination, which at first I thought might be Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis, PSSM, or even EPM. All of these are difficult to diagnose from a vet, but we did rule out PSSM and EPM. A high fat, low starch diet did not help, and as my mare deteriorated I thought I would not be able to ride her again and she may even need to be put down.

In all my research, I finally learned about Vitamin E deficiency and began relating my mare's downturn to the fact that I'd stopped feeding vitamins the previous spring, the pastures had been overgrazed and poor all summer, and by the time winter came my mare was severely deficient. As a trial I began feeding a large amount of Vitamin E, and the improvement was dramatic and immediate. A lot of the weight loss I'd been unable to put back on Halla after her ulcers turned out to be muscle loss, and as she grew stronger she filled back out. 

For several months I was just happy to be riding my mare. Yet as she grew stronger, all my focus on her muscles and movement highlighted to me how crooked she was (has always been), and I began working on improving her saddle fit. Halla's left shoulder is much larger than her right one, and her left hoof is a bit larger and flatter than the other. The final solution I came to was buying a treeless, Freeform saddle. For the first time in 5 years, the saddle stays straight and her shoulder movement does not affect the saddle.

I've discovered that Valhalla needs to relearn how to use her body under saddle. Over the years and miles I had developed a way to deal with having such a crooked horse. Using my body and aids, I had compensated quite a bit to help her do things such as pick up leads and move in a straight line. Her trot always felt terribly rough, and she preferred to canter.

When other people have ridden my mare, it has been very difficult for them to keep her straight. It has been difficult for me to keep her somewhat straight as well, and some days are better than others. Some of the technique I used became a bit subconscious, but I had a chronic tendonitis on the outside of my lower left leg due to having extra pressure down on that stirrup most of the time. Even the best fitting saddles always tended to slide to the right on my mare, toward her smaller shoulder. It was a process of weight and balance and blocking aids and guiding aids, and then we'd manage to follow curves and straight lines.

Today after we warmed up a bit, we worked on cantering around the perimeter of the arena. There was some humping over/crowhopping and changing leads, as Halla tried to figure out how to use her body. Whenever she got into the canter, it was straighter than it's been, and more balanced. But it was tricky for her because there was nothing for me to counter balance, so my weight was equal in both stirrups. I didn't have to fight the saddle and then counter balance that pushing weight with other blocking aids. I'm sure it feels very strange to her, having been used to cantering in such an odd way, always fighting the saddle pushing crookedly on her back.

I'd tried having the saddle shimmed and flocked to fit her, but that only helped about 20% of the problem on a dynamically moving horse. 

We had several laps of successful cantering, and then we went and walked around a large field with a buddy horse. The wind and rain started up again by the time we finished, but it was a good ride.


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## gottatrot

Dusk was settling in. People were hunkered down inside, staying dry and cozy as 40-50 mph winds and driving rain battered around the houses in my neighborhood. Driving toward the barn, the wind buffeted my car, making it feel as if the steering wheel might get pulled out of my grasp. 

Turning in to the gravel drive at the barn, shapes began appearing in the gloom.

The horse people were here, pushing wheelbarrows, leading horses, and carrying hay bales. Their faces were cheery, framed by wet hair that seemed unable to decide if it would rather plaster close to a person's skin or fly around wildly. It was as if there was no storm at all; no one mentioned the weather. Not one person apparently minded that while nearly everyone in the county was staying inside, they were all out laboring in the inclement weather. 

They behaved like they were the privileged few, and rather than resenting the daily chores that did not go away when the weather didn't cooperate, they acted as if they were enjoying themselves. 

For my part, as I gripped a gate with one hand while the gusts scattered the manure off the fork I was holding in the other, it seemed that I was smiling too. 

The horses were soon eating contentedly, the rain pattered on the roof, and it felt like I was one of the lucky ones, part of this weird, alternative, horsey world.


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## gottatrot

*Valhalla, part one:*

Valhalla was an unplanned rescue. 


My friends and I agreed to take in two horses for training, a Thoroughbred and an Arabian. When we went to pick up the horses, we saw two horses tied up and thought something was wrong…we were supposed to be getting a 12 yr old and 13 yr old horse, but the horses we saw appeared very old. As we got closer we realized the horses were skeletal, the TB near death. 


We took the horses, but our fun little project was now a rescue mission. It became, “Sign over the horses or we’ll report you and there will be fines.” The TB was 16.3hh and the Arab 15hh, the horses were getting a flake of hay to share daily, were standing in a mud paddock and had eaten most of their shelter.


One of my friends decided in an instant she would take the TB. I struggled over getting the Arab, but in the end didn’t know anyone else who could take her on with all the expenses. Both horses had severe rain rot, scratches, and the Arab had a few sarcoids. Large chunks had been cut out of her mane and tail. The TB only had one eye. 



When we brought the horses home, we put them on grass for about ten minutes, and the look in the horses’ eyes was as if they’d starved and died and now were in heaven. That look was what gave Valhalla her name…a "found paradise" of sorts was what I wished for her future.


As the horses regained their health, the TB was sweet, mellow. 

My Arab began to show her true colors…feisty, excitable, dominant. She was absolutely impossible to catch due to previous poor handling, so that became the first project. 



The story was that the horses had both been trained at one point. The TB was off the track. Valhalla had been to a trainer to get started. Then both horses had been turned out for the past 8 years. Meaning they’d been 4 and 5 when all their training had stopped. 


The TB remembered and picked everything back up. Valhalla reacted to the cinch, reared and pulled away when you picked up her feet, and both horses had severe separation anxiety when one was taken away from the other. 



Beginning with ground work, I started Valhalla over. 
I planned to find her a good home once she was healthy and going solidly under saddle. After all, I already had Amore.


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## gottatrot

In the winter, it's best to cuddle up with your buddies for warmth.

My friends say to be careful what you name your horse because they may live up to their name. 
Amore is always making friends, and sometimes they find her too lovey dovey for their taste.


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## gottatrot

*Valhalla: Part Two*

As my new horse, Valhalla became healthy, I started taking her out on rides with other horses. 
My plans for finding her a new home began evaporating fairly quickly. 

First, although she gained weight and muscled up, it turned out she was a very hard keeper. The vets said her teeth were good, despite the neglect, and we took care of any worms. But once Halla was out of a starvation state, she began turning up her nose at alfalfa, beet pulp, or any wet food such as oil. I gave her free choice hay, and despite that she was eating 8-10 lbs of complete feed a day just to stay in on the thin side of normal.

Then there was the issue that despite her rapid progress with training, her personality was very hot. I kept her in a snaffle for some time, giving her a real chance to work with the lightest cues possible. Thankfully she was not as fast to explode as Amore had been, and didn't buck or try to bolt. But her energy would build rapidly if you tamped her down too much, and although you could do a slow ride and keep her rate under control, it required some serious attention and detailed, methodical riding. She'd simmer until she came right up to the boiling point, and then you'd better let some energy out before the pot boiled over.








Knowing that horses have to be trained to gallop safely, I tried to keep Halla in a snaffle while going out with other pace horses to teach her to slow, rate and stop while going fast. That worked for a time, but this mare loved running and soon wanted to lead the other horses or even keep running after the other horses stopped. So I turned to a Kimberwicke, which had worked well on other strong horses, and this did help give an element of control when she became very excited or strong.

Valhalla had some interesting traits that I had not yet encountered in other horses. One thing she would try when I would ask her to keep her speed controlled at a canter was doing one and two tempi flying lead changes. We'd be going up a hill, staying nicely behind other horses, and changing leads madly back and forth at such a rapid rate that I felt like I was bouncing up and down on a trampoline.

Since Halla had not been exposed to mountain trails, she viewed changes in light or patterns of light coming down through the leaf canopy as solid objects. We'd be trotting or cantering along, and all of a sudden her weight would shift back all the way onto her hindquarters and we'd stop dead. If you haven't done this on a horse, it is a bit disconcerting and rather difficult to not end up either concussing on the horse's skull, or finding yourself sitting on the horse's neck. A hunter/jumper friend I met several years later told me her trainer taught her to think, “feet on the dashboard.” That describes perfectly how I rode Halla through this time period. 

My friends and I had developed an interest in endurance riding. As we put the horses in training, we rode them for many, many miles and it was something both of my horses excelled at. When you ride horses for so many miles, you begin to feel like a part of your horse, and getting on again just feels “right,” as if part of your body was reattached. 

You think, your horse moves. You look, and your horse goes there. 

I began to realize that out of the 80 plus horses I’ve ridden from various breeds, Valhalla was my absolute favorite to ride. 

She was now my horse, forever. She was expensive to feed, I only knew several people other than myself who could safely ride her, and on her best days she was a handful. On her worst days, almost too much to handle. 

But Halla is the greatest ride. I have never, ever had to ask this horse to go out. When I get on, I point her nose in a direction and we go. She loves to run like the wind, and if I ever need a serious stress reliever, I can just open her up and she will take off like a rocket. She rides like a big, powerful horse, but she is compact and can turn on a dime. If I want to keep up with friends on their big Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods, we can. But she can also go for a spin with little Arabs, Mustangs and ponies. Halla is so athletic she can do about anything. She has challenged me so many times to become a better horseman and better rider. For those who value a quiet mind, steady temperament, or a relaxing ride, this is not the horse. For me, riding her is something to look forward to every time, and I’ve realized by now she is probably that once in a lifetime horse, that perfect ride and I feel so lucky to have found her.


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## knightrider

I am really enjoying reading this. You are quite a rider!


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## bsms

Valhalla has a lot in common with Mia. Unfortunately, the Sonoran Desert doesn't have many places where running safely is remotely possible. That is why she is now a brood mare in a place where the country is open, they like to ride 20 miles at a time, and like to gallop for 2-4 MILES instead of 2-300 YARDS. I find I miss her, though.

But your advice some years back was very helpful in making Mia a safer horse to ride...maybe because you had ridden Valhalla?


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Valhalla has a lot in common with Mia...
> But your advice some years back was very helpful in making Mia a safer horse to ride...maybe because you had ridden Valhalla?


Yes, your descriptions of Mia reminded me very much of Valhalla. I think they are cut from a similar cloth. I don't think I could have managed Halla very well without the ability to take her long distances and let her gallop sometimes. On the mountain trail where I used to board, we would start with a 3/4 mile gallop up a very steep hill after warming up. Many horses we rode with couldn't even make it halfway, so we'd wait for them at the top. Halla wouldn't even get winded, and I'd have to pull her up at the end. 

It sounds like you did what was best for Mia rather than just yourself, which is the mark of a true horseman. 

Thank you, Knightrider. I've heard the phrase, "A fit horse is a dangerous horse," but I think a key thing is that a person gets fit at the same time as the horse by riding the miles. Getting there together trains the rider to handle the horse.


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## elle1959

knightrider said:


> I am really enjoying reading this. You are quite a rider!


I'm enjoying it, too. Just wanted to let you know I am reading


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## gottatrot

*The Wrong Reins and a Poor Dog*

I made my silly name, "Gottatrot" on a whim, a few years back. It stuck because it kept being appropriate. You gottatrot most of the way in order to finish an endurance ride in the time frame allowed. Slow walking horses gottatrot to catch up to the rest of the riders. Spooky horses gottatrot past things that make them nervous. And Valhalla is constantly asking if she can please canter, and I must keep insisting...gottatrot, gottatrot, gottatrot a little longer.

I'm sure without horses in my life I'd be an impatient person. However, there isn't a lot of instant gratification with horses, and progress comes slowly, through a lot of grueling work. 
Today it only worked out to have a short ride on Valhalla. By the time I got her saddled up, darkness was closing in fast and I decided to ride around a field to continue working on bending through circles to help her redesign her body to move more straight. 

At the walk, she was bending fine. At the trot, Halla found it easier to do a spiral in around the circle instead of going straight through her body around the circle. Her front end was making a slightly smaller circle than her hind end, but I wanted to have both ends going around the same circle. I knew what I needed to do: look ahead to where I'm going, allow the turn of my body to match that angle, and my horses know to follow my seat, weight and drape of my legs around the curve. 

When I pushed Halla forward, we'd get a few steps of the circle right, but she found it more difficult at a slower speed. A straight horse wasn't built in a day, and since we could not bend at the trot I did not try to canter on the circle. 

As we began to canter on a straight line, I realized I had the wrong reins. Do you ever annoy yourself with how stupid you are? This past summer, I decided absolutely from reading posts on the forum that I needed to buy some rubber reins from Nuttysaddler. Well, it slipped my mind and then I went to visit friends and took one ride on a lovely Quarter Horse and decided I liked the new reins my friends were raving about, which were made from synthetic Beta material. 

On my ride on the Quarter Horse, I thought I gave the reins a good test because we went for a long ride with plenty of fast trotting and cantering. But the mare was in a leverage bit, so I rarely contacted her mouth. Now that I've taken the pair of Beta reins I recently purchased out for a few rides, I find that I can't hold onto them, they slip through my fingers and get worse when I wear gloves with nitrile to keep my hands warm. I can't differentiate between the reins and my horse's mane, so today as we cantered off powerfully, I found I had a rein in my left hand and a mane in my right. So when I asked Halla to slow, we circled sharply to the left. 

Taking the gloves off, I felt a bit safer, so I rode Halla over past the barn and up a hill to take a loop around the horse pastures. We have a nice riding track there, but as I crested the hill I saw that one of the elk herds had drifted in with the settling dusk. The elk remind me of clouds. When you look at them, you don't notice them moving, but if you look back after a couple of minutes they'll have drifted in one direction or another. It's peaceful, and disconcerting if you're trying to maneuver at a safe distance around a herd.

We only rode down one side of the track and trotted back up, to avoid the elk. The labrador that lives on the property had followed along with us, and he looked a bit melancholy. I felt sad that we'd had such a short ride and disappointed him. Later I heard that was the third horseback ride he'd gone out with that day. What a poor fellow.


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## gottatrot

In another thread, an interesting topic came up about confidence when riding and horses that spook.
I wrote about this in a reply based on some of my experiences;


> I don't believe the right approach for each horse is just based on how afraid the horse is, or how experienced or confident the rider is.
> 
> I've found that horses have a lot of different levels of how sensitive they are to a rider's confidence/demeanor. If I had to rate horses I've ridden on a scale of one to ten, I'd say some horses are a "1," meaning they rely almost entirely on their own self, and some horses are way up there like a "9" or "10," and a rider can either make the horse fail or pull them entirely through a situation on their own confidence and riding.
> 
> Horses also vary greatly on the scale of how confident vs fearful/spooky they are in general.
> So you can have a horse that is very confident and also relies entirely on a rider. Or you can have a horse that is very spooky and relies entirely on a rider. The most difficult is a horse that is very fearful/spooky and relies entirely on himself.
> 
> The same goes for excitability. Some horses are very excitable but rely heavily on the rider or handler's input, so calm down easily. Other horses are very excitable and rely heavily on themselves, so do not calm down until their own internal factors are met.
> What I'm talking about here is not training, but the horse's innate personality that comes through when instinct takes over.
> 
> I believe that some horses get more confident out in the world because they rely on themselves, and they believe through experience that things are safe out there. I believe that other horses get more confident out in the world because they trust their rider's input and confidence that they are safe. The difference is seen when you put a green rider on either horse. The self-confident horse will ride the same and not spook. The rider-confident horse will suddenly be afraid of everything again.
> 
> Obviously there are ranges to this, and more horses fall into an average range than otherwise.


This topic makes me think of some horses I've ridden and how they responded to confidence. 
One little Arab gelding named Banner could be absolutely terrified but he relied very heavily on his rider. So we'd be cantering around a corner and you'd feel him start to canter higher because he was afraid to pass something spooky. But one firm push with your seat and he'd canter on by, eyes bugging out of his head but gamely trusting that you'd keep him safe.
I've ridden a few other horses that you could just bluff through anything.

Most of the Mustangs I've ridden are the opposite. In general, they've been more confident types but extremely self-reliant. You could just feel the disdain when they'd stop to look at something possibly threatening. I'd give them the old, "Come on, nothing to see here," cues and I swear their entire body language would be, "Oh really? You think YOU are going to decide if it's safe for ME?" One even turned and gave me a *look*.

Valhalla is very insensitive to the rider's confidence and depends heavily on herself. You could be totally confident or scared witless and she'd behave the same. She's mid-level when it comes to spooking, and once she learns things are safe, she won't spook about them again. But she is high on the excitability scale and won't calm down until her own internal factors are satisfied.

Amore is super sensitive to rider's confidence. My friend says "Amore knows if your little toe doesn't want to go over the jump." She is a very spooky horse, above mid-range excitable but can calm down quickly if the handler or rider exudes confidence. You can ride her through about anything confidently, but a nervous rider will have a tough time riding her. Amore also picks up the vibes from the other horses on the ride and will behave just like the other horse she is out with. If we go out with an old plug, she'll be an old plug. If we go out with a prancy young thing, she'll be a prancy young thing.


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## bsms

I really liked what you posted on the other thread. Unfortunately, there was no "love" button to click.

But your explanation "explains" Mia and Lilly and Cowboy and Trooper and Bandit.

Cowboy is pretty experienced and self-sufficient. He is largely the same horse with a total beginner as with an experienced rider. Cowboy doesn't like arena work, but put him on a trail and he is VERY sensible. He understands the desert (having been born wild) and knows how to handle himself.

Trooper can take a total beginner, but he was named TROOPER because he was always just 'a little trooper' who would do what he was told. In most cases, his natural reaction is to do what his rider says. He was always that way, which is why my rancher friend recommended him to us. You can count on him to do what you ask in the large majority of cases.

Mia wanted to be self-sufficient, but lacked the experience. So she was nervous, but she often forgot about her rider. If she bolted, the most reliable way to slow her was to call her name softly. Once she remembered, she would 'check-in'. She also NEEDED to be part of the decision making process.

Bandit is pretty self-sufficient in the desert, but has no experience riding in human neighborhoods. In a neighborhood, he needs to trust his rider.

IMHO, the problem was that his previous riding experience was "Shut up and color" - so a firm rider would get him to obey, but against his judgment. I've been trying to show him *I* have good judgment. We are about to a point where his trust in me is similar to his trust in another horse...which means it helps, but he isn't confident walking past something just because another horse just did it, either.

He is enough like Mia to want to be part of the decision-making process, but he also needs a lot of reassurance at times - which can be communicated by a firm seat, firm legs, a reassuring voice, AND a refusal to let him make the decisions on his own. There is a point where, if I time it right, I can defuse tension by "suggesting" we turn left 20 degrees and get an extra 20 feet of room, or by suggesting a trot will leave us better prepared in case that garbage can DOES leap at us. A well timed suggestion will reduce his tension and buy me obedience...but the timing is still something we need to work on.

"_Most of the Mustangs I've ridden are the opposite. In general, they've been more confident types but extremely self-reliant. You could just feel the disdain when they'd stop to look at something possibly threatening. I'd give them the old, "Come on, nothing to see here," cues and I swear their entire body language would be, "Oh really? You think YOU are going to decide if it's safe for ME?" One even turned and gave me a *look*._"

That is Cowboy. Including the LOOK. He'll also stop and give Trooper the LOOK when Trooper is lagging behind so Cowboy (the decision-maker) needs to stop and wait for him. Cowboy accepts me as an adviser only. And in the desert, that is usually all he needs.

"_Valhalla is very insensitive to the rider's confidence and depends heavily on herself. You could be totally confident or scared witless and she'd behave the same. She's mid-level when it comes to spooking, and once she learns things are safe, she won't spook about them again. But she is high on the excitability scale and won't calm down until her own internal factors are satisfied._"

Mia. Very much like Mia.

" _My friend says "Amore knows if your little toe doesn't want to go over the jump." She is a very spooky horse, above mid-range excitable but can calm down quickly if the handler or rider exudes confidence._"

Bandit. His rider's attitude and confidence are very important to him, IF he believes his rider is trustworthy. He can usually be pressured into doing X, but that does nothing to calm him about X.

So thank you for a couple of great posts! A great rider wrote:

"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago. I can recall my astonishment, when I first began to collect books on the techniques of riding, at finding, in books written two or three centuries ago, minute descriptions of "discoveries" that I had made for myself only after a long period of trial and error...Once we become interested in learning about riding, and are not content to repeat interminably the same errors, there is much that we can learn." - William Steinkraus, Riding and Jumping, 1961.​This has been one of those "Aha!" moments for me.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Mia wanted to be self-sufficient, but lacked the experience. So she was nervous, but she often forgot about her rider. If she bolted, the most reliable way to slow her was to call her name softly. Once she remembered, she would 'check-in'. She also NEEDED to be part of the decision making process.
> 
> A great rider wrote:"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago...​


​Something I never get tired of is hearing about horses' personalities, how they are the same and how they are different. Since Halla is self-sufficient, when she had ulcers last year she was dangerous (I figured out quickly she had ulcers, but not before experiencing what it was like to have her never check in). I was used to her sometimes forgetting about the rider, but she would always check in. Until she was in pain, and then I was the rider and she was the horse, and we were two unrelated entities.

I've learned a lot from reading about your horses and concepts you've learned too, and it is very helpful to share experiences with others. 

Another little horse I sometimes ride named Booker is very self-reliant. He is an Anglo-Arab and has the confidence and excitability (about work) of a Thoroughbred with the stamina of an Arab. Great horse. He takes care of everything and is completely trustworthy at any gait from walk to slow canter. If you want to go faster than that, you absolutely must check in with him first. If you remember and say, "Hey, Booker, I'm here and I'm setting the pace," he will be compliant and run at your pace for your distance. If you forget and don't check in, he will run at his pace for his distance and ignore you completely. 

I spent many years horseless as a child and teen, while still being obsessed with horses. Many times I heard that the only way I could learn about horses and riding was to be around them and riding them for enough hours. But I could not accept that, since my only chances to be with horses were not on a daily or even weekly basis. So I read and read, and studied concepts about horses, riding and training. Since I understood the concepts, it was much easier for me to learn quickly each time I was able to get the hands on experience. 
Many of the things that have helped my riding the most are concepts, such as when I read from George Morris, "Your security is in your lower leg." Or the concept of a fast release.


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## gottatrot

*How I Became a Hoof Nerd - Part One*

Despite my interest in anything related to horses, there were two large areas of horsemanship that I spent many years avoiding getting deeply into. The first one was horse nutrition. I figured there was a lot to it, it seemed very complicated, and every time I began reading about calcium/phosphorus ratios my head began to swim. So I kept putting off really "buckling down" and studying horse nutrition.

The second area I avoided was hoof care. It seemed enough to know the basic parts on the bottom of the hoof, keep the hooves picked out and have them cared for regularly by a competent farrier.

Around 2004 I began hearing about "barefoot" hoof trimming, and ended up getting a barefoot trimmer for Amore. Prior to this I'd put shoes on her from time to time for no other reason than because we were going to horse shows, and that was what everyone did. The trimmer said her hooves were "good," that one was "a little clubby," and it seemed like she did a good job. 

A year later, I moved away and the recommended farrier did not impress me very much. He came to see my horse after six weeks, said there hadn't been much growth, took three rasps off each hoof and charged me $60. The barefoot trimmer had spent at least ten to fifteen minutes on each hoof, rasping the bottom, making a mustang roll and trimming the frogs. 

Shortly after this was when I moved again and began riding Amore for many miles out on trails with my new friends. I was beginning to believe that barefoot was better for horses. However, the roads we were riding on were so rocky that Amore hit a rock wrong and put a big split up the middle of one front hoof. My friends had two farriers they used, a more methodical, educated farrier for the horses that behaved well, and another farrier that could put shoes on the one mare the first farrier wouldn't touch. The educated farrier came out, said my mare would need shoes to ride on this tough footing, and put some shoes on Amore. He said he did not have any clients that rode like we did, and showed me how our shoes could not be reset after six weeks because they were so thin he could break them in half with his hands.

These new friends of mine had gone to farrier classes themselves, and also their farrier had been sharing his knowledge with them for several years. More information was coming out on the internet about barefoot trimming, and after a few months I began to get frustrated that even with shoes on and various grooving methods, Amore's crack was not showing any signs of resolving. 
My friends had begun teaching me how to use the rasp, nippers and hoof knives. At this point I decided to use some barefoot trimming methods (as I understood them at the time) to see if I could get this hoof crack to grow out.

At this same time, we were working with some new horses that were needing hoof care but that the farriers did not want to handle. We had a Mustang mare that came to us as the most aggressive horse I've ever been around. At first, if you entered the paddock with her you'd have to stand up tall, square your shoulders and have a crop in hand or else she'd come charging right at you, teeth bared. This mare would jerk her hooves away and kick you, quite purposefully and without fear or claustrophobia issues. "If you weren't so pretty..." we'd joke, since it's tough teaching a horse respect that has learned to be that aggressive. But we did end up succeeding quite well with the mare, and she was tremendously smart and brave. 

Also around this time we had Valhalla show up. As I mentioned before, she was not used to being handled and was very difficult with her hooves at first. After three months, I wanted shoes put on her since I was still unsure of how to get horses out on these rocky trails barefoot, and her hooves had been neglected for awhile. Since I'd been working with her daily on picking up her hooves and hammering on them, I was confident she would be good for the farrier. However, when the farrier arrived he was concerned about the amount of muscle tension she had, and the "look in her eye." I gave her a dose of ACE to try to help. We waited and waited, the ACE did nothing, and I gave her a second shot. When that did nothing, the farrier suggested a third full dose and I said no.

My two close friends and I had been gradually changing from people who passively watched a farrier trim and shoe, to people who discussed with the farriers exactly what we wanted and had the farrier do the actual work. We decided, why not just do the work ourselves? The good farrier was getting close to retiring, so began doing fewer of the easy horses. We took over trimming and shoeing the others. 

It turned out Valhalla could not wear shoes because she interfered when she galloped and I worried about her harming herself. From time to time my friends would use Easyboots on their horses, so I bought some and tried them out. Over time, we ended up keeping a few of the horses barefoot and riding with Easyboots. It became habit to inspect the other riders' horse hooves as we went along, checking to see if any boots had come off. All of us had difficulty keeping boots on hind hooves, and on front hooves when galloping. 

This was the beginning of my interest in hooves, born out of necessity. I was starting to learn there was a lot more to hoof care than I'd previously thought.


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## gottatrot

*How I Became a Hoof Nerd: Part Two*

It became quite noticeable to me that the barefoot horses owned by myself and friends had healthier hooves than the ones that wore shoes all the time. 
Even though I hadn't been able to completely get rid of the toe crack on Amore's hoof that had been caused by hitting a rock, after a period of trimming the hoof myself the crack was very tiny. 
Although hoof boots did not stay on satisfactorily and were difficult to put on, I was getting used to the inconvenience and they seemed preferable to shoes.

After a few years, family needs meant we had to move away from my good riding friends. My new boarding barn owner was a barefoot trimmer, but she was not currently taking care of hooves and I was on my own. Since I'd been having issues with the Easyboot gaiters rubbing around Valhalla's pasterns, I began looking into a better boot for her.
This was when I stumbled onto the world of information online about hoof care. I began studying with a group of people who followed certain "hoof guru" who was so passionate about hooves it became contagious. 

After a time, I realized that although the idea of studying hooves in depth was very important, this hoof teacher I was learning from tended to the extreme and placed too little importance on what actual research had shown about how nutrition affected the hooves. All problems were considered "mechanical" and "trimming issues." Some of the more logical thinkers split off from the main group and did studying on our own, following the studies of those who had helped many horses such as Ovnicek, Ramey, Jackson, Pollit, Redden, and Bowker. 

As I studied dissections, thousands of hoof photos, and spent a several years reading in depth studies about hoof anatomy, growth, and going to hoof clinics, along the way I kept running into people with horses who were in need of trimming help. In particular, people had horses that had difficulty with farriers, but that needed their hooves trimmed anyway. Because of the experiences I'd had with the horses we'd trained on my friends' farm, I would offer to help. In this area, for some reason some of the farriers are men with very little experience with horses other than farrier work. They tend to be unable to read body language well, and end up with bad experiences that make them nervous around the horses. Many of them only have one or two tools they use for bad behavior, such as hitting or yanking on the horse. 
That being said, there are some very good farriers I've seen as well, that are very confident and skilled at reading horses and staying safe while handling their feet.

Most of the horses I ran into were not ill-tempered. Some of them had painful hooves and couldn't stand for long. Some had tight or weak muscles and couldn't stretch very far. Some just did not know what they were supposed to do, and some were afraid to give up their feet. 

All that I learned taught me that Amore's hoof crack was going through a laminar wedge in her toe, caused by a club hoof. Once I grew out the laminar wedge, the crack disappeared, never to return. Valhalla stopped interfering once her toes were not too long. Both horses developed tight hoof capsules, concave soles, and healthy digital cushions. Renegade hoof boots were the answer to our boot retention problems, and stayed on all hooves even when galloping. Over the terrain where I currently ride, my horses don't even need to wear boots. 

Each month after I trim my own horses, it usually turns out that I help out another horse or two or three. At the barn where I currently board, there is a very good barefoot trimmer who comes out and trims some of the horses, and it is nice to see such good hooves around.

It is interesting to me that although I do not call myself a natural horsemanship person, and although I can and will discipline horses, people tend to trust and believe that I will be gentle with their horses. I’d like to think that what they and the horses see is fairness. I give the horse a chance to just be scared, inexperienced, and to have excuses for behaviors. If it turns out there is not a real reason for the horse to act up a bit, I will discipline the horse. But I think people can see why I did it, and that the horse understood as well. What many people dislike (and I also dislike) is when a horse slips, and the farrier hits the horse with a file on a bony part of his body, or if a horse raises his head to look at something and the farrier yanks the horse back five steps. I guess my philosophy is to give the horse a chance to fail and not just assume they will. If the horse does fail, then I let them know what they did was wrong. In my experience, this leads quickly to better behavior on the horse’s part.

Something I always try to think about nowadays…Valhalla was tricky with her hind legs for years. It seemed to me she was just a difficult horse since other horses improved so much after patient and persistent handling. Last winter when her symptoms became very bad with hind end weakness, I watched videos of horses with shivers and noticed they did what Valhalla had always done. Their legs would come sharply forward to their bellies, as if involuntarily. I’d always felt that Valhalla tried to be good, but just couldn’t, but attributed it to personality. It was a real eye-opener when I realized what shivers and Vitamin E deficiency have in common is hind end coordination issues and weakness. After dosing Halla up on E and having her return to normal strength, amazingly she stopped pulling her hind legs away from me and held them up nicely. As I suspected, over the years she would have liked to be more helpful.


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## knightrider

Your posts are so informative and well-written. I really look forward to reading them.

I wish I had known this about vitamin E deficiency many years ago when I had a young mare who wouldn't let us handle her hind feet. I bought this mare from a man who knew nothing about riding and horses and didn't plan on learning anything. He had bought her at auction, knowing nothing about her except that she was a small draft and 4 years old. When he first started riding her, she was great, but it wasn't long before she was bucking, bolting, and attacking people. (We've all heard THIS story plenty, haven't we?)

Since I had grown up with horses, he "allowed" me to come check her out. I saw immediately that this little draft mare had never been handled or trained at all. I set out a nice plan for training her to be ridden, and he completely ignored and pooh-poohed all my suggestions. So, of course, she only got worse. He refused to sell her to me (I didn't need her, I just wanted to get her out of that awful situation and find her a good home), because I was a woman and couldn't possibly know anything.

Finally she had become so vicious and dangerous that people couldn't even go into her stall, and he reluctantly sold her to me. I thought I had a HUGE re-training project ahead of me when I loaded her into my trailer. But from the moment she set foot on my property, she was calm, gentle, and well-behaved. I started her as if she had never been ridden, and she was perfect--except for one thing. No matter what I did, she kicked violently when I tried to pick up her hind feet. She did everything in her power to please me in every other way, and I was convinced it was some sort of pain issue, but nobody could find anything wrong. I decided she had bad stifles, which is hard to diagnose, and stopped punishing her about the back feet.

The rest of her story is long and convoluted, so I won't go on about her. I finally sold her for only $300 to a riding school because she was so quiet and gentle with beginners, with the caveat that she had bad stifles and must never be bred. Sport horses were all the rage in those long ago days, and the riding school sold her for big bucks as a breeding mare to thoroughbreds, and her first foal sold for $3,000. I was furious with the riding school because I thought it was irresponsible breeding. Upon reading your post, wouldn't it be curious if she could have been "cured" with vitamin E? Perhaps those foals were really not irresponsibly bred? We'll never know, but I did very much like reading about what you researched.


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## gottatrot

Very interesting. I'm grateful to be living in these times where we can share information so easily with the world, and get expert advice from vets and researchers brought into our homes via the internet. 

Being a draft horse, your mare also could have had shivers or PSSM I suppose. Did you ever notice if she held her hind legs up trembling sometimes? Did she have any difficulty backing up? What I learned was that some conditions can mimic shivers, and there are things that can help differentiate. 

I could have sworn my mare had shivers until after she recovered, because her hind legs would tremble and shake. But this can be simply from muscle fatigue and weakness (apparently vitamin E deficiency disrupts the nerve/muscle communication so the horse can't use his muscles properly), while shivers actually causes the nerves to get the signals mixed up due to a lesion in the brain. So the nerves fire kind of randomly, as I understand it, and the horse can't control the muscles properly and they contract differently than the horse is trying to signal with her brain. Obviously this is frustrating to the horse, and could be upsetting too. I imagine the horse is trying to pick up the leg and hold it, but the muscles contract differently and the leg snaps forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU4xFPEzYwnCqRRK7jnY8kYg&v=blfVYwSl4Os


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## Bondre

I too am greatly enjoying your journal, and learning from it, so thanks for sharing your experiences. With Valhalla, were there any other symptoms of her vitamin E deficiency at first, before she started to lose muscle? Or just the problems in holding up her hind feet? And is vitamin E deficiency specific to the hind quarters, or at least more commonly manifested here than in the shoulders, for example? My horse is antsy about lifting her hind feet, and while I'm fairly sure it's a training rather than a health issue, it never hurts to know more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightrider

That mare never had any problems doing anything but picking up the back legs. She was so good and dependable with beginners. Smart too. When the guy bought her at the auction, he was told she was a Suffolk Punch, but I doubt that very seriously, as that breed is quite rare in Maryland, I think. She was the spitting image--height and color and build--of a horse in my breed book called a Jutland, but those are even more rare in Maryland, probably none. So, who knows what she was, but she was a good one. I had a world class farrier who could pick up her hind feet really slow and low to the ground and trim her feet without her kicking. That's another reason why I thought it was stifle pain, because if we picked up her feet low and slow, she was OK.


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> With Valhalla, were there any other symptoms of her vitamin E deficiency at first, before she started to lose muscle? Or just the problems in holding up her hind feet? And is vitamin E deficiency specific to the hind quarters, or at least more commonly manifested here than in the shoulders, for example?


In the first several years I had Valhalla, I would notice that her cooperation with her hind legs would be better sometimes. Looking back, I think she would be more "cooperative" at the end of summer, which is probably because I was not consistently giving her vitamins throughout the year, so that was probably the only time she had good muscle strength built up, after grazing on green grass for a couple of months in the pasture. If I remember right, I attributed her good attitudes at the end of summer to consistent work and being at a good weight, since it was difficult to keep weight on her the rest of the year.

That sign was very subtle, and it is difficult when other horses getting the same treatment don't have issues, so you feel there is nothing wrong with your horse management. They don't understand why some horses show serious signs of Vitamin E deficiency and many others are not affected outwardly by it. I have wondered if some horses' muscles can adjust how quickly it is removed from storage (it is stored in the muscles) and other horses just release it regardless until they are depleted. So one horse's blood levels might be low, but they are still getting some daily amount from their muscle storage, while another horse has used their stores up altogether. 

Then last summer, there were lots of other signs because where I boarded the pastures were overgrazed so there was no lush green grass over the spring and summer, and also I was not feeding any vitamins at all. That's when we got into trouble. When you don't see what vitamins are doing, you can think they are a waste of money...that's what happened to me. 

By mid-summer, Valhalla had started bucking when I asked her to canter. Through her retraining as a green horse after I rescued her, she never bucked. This was a new behavior for her. Red flag #1. I could not figure it out, and tried all kinds of things like different tack, rest, massage, etc. In the fall, I moved her and she developed ulcers. After getting over the ulcers, when I started her back into work she was bucking again, but worse. And then she stopped wanting to canter. This is a horse that always preferred the canter, but she began wanting to trot only. And her trot felt choppier than before. These things I thought were due to being out of shape after taking time off for the ulcers.

Next, she started doing these little half rears and getting very upset and distressed about going out. Obviously I was getting a clue that something was very wrong, and by this time I noticed she was never dirty. That was a huge red flag because she loves to roll and I always called her "Pigpen." So she wasn't laying down. Then she began standing funny, like she was propping herself up on her front legs. She'd only graze uphill, never downhill and spread her legs wide. That was when I had totally stopped riding Halla and then she was falling on the lunge. All of that progressed quickly over a couple of months.

As I understand it, the hindquarter muscles are the largest in the body so that's why you see it affecting them first. When I'd look at Halla from behind, her hindquarters scooped in on the sides and were concave. Normally they are pretty flat from top to bottom. By the time she was not laying down at all, Halla's shoulders were also looking very bony and shrunken, and her abdomen had developed ridged muscling similar to a horse with heaves.

The miracle was how quickly she recovered once I began giving her the Vitamin E. Since she was so bad off, it was obvious that she was stronger only a week after I began feeding it.


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## gottatrot

*Feeding Valhalla*

For those who want to rescue a horse:
Halla was “free,” since we talked her owner into signing her over to me. In the first month after Halla came to me, here were my expenses:
-Teeth floating: $150
-Shots: $65
-Hoof trim: (done by myself, would have been $30)
-Blanket: $80 (necessary since she was underweight and frequently shivered) 
-Board: $250
-4 bales alfalfa hay: $60
-Wormer: $15
-Medicated shampoo for rain rot: $15
-Medicine for scratches: $15
-Complete feed: $50
-Vitamins: $30
-Halter and lead: $30

So around $800. My guess is now that she probably had ulcers and if I rescued another horse that was starved I’d give Omeprazole for a couple of weeks. In a way, if you think of that as being the purchase price of a horse, it is not very expensive. However, my vet says in his experience horses that have been malnourished may need extra calories to keep weight on for two or three years. 

Which brings me to the subject of this post. 
People talk about horses that are “hard keepers.” Nowadays I differentiate between “expensive to feed,” versus “hard keeper.” There are many horses that need a lot of calories, but they eat just fine. In my mind, those horses are not “hard keepers,” but merely “expensive to feed.” The owner simply has to buy the food and get it to the horse. The horse will eat it. The owner may not wish to feed 30 lbs of hay and 7 lbs of hard feed, but that is what the horse requires.

Valhalla is what I call a “hard keeper.” Using this table, it would estimate that she would need about 20,000 calories per day if I consider her a hard keeper in moderate work (she weighs about 875 lbs). When I put her diet into FeedXL, it estimates she is getting about 20,000 calories per day. With this intake, she stays on the thin side of a normal weight.

*Weight of Horse*
*Kg (pounds/2.2)*
*X Metabolism Factor*
*Mcal (Calories) per day*
*for maintenance*
450 (1,000/2.2)
Normal : 0.0333
15 Mcal (15,000)
450 (1,000/2.2)
Easy Keeper: 0.0303
13 Mcal (13,000) 
450 (1,000/2.2)
Hard Keeper: 0.0363
16 Mcal (16,000) 

*Activity/Energy Needs*
*DE Formula *
*Using 450 kg (1,000 lb) horse*
*DE (Mcal/day) needed*
Maintenance (No Work)
450 x 0.0333
15-18 based on metabolism (15,000 calories/day)
Moderate
450 x 0.0333 x 1.40
23 (23,000 calories/day)
Heavy
450 x 0.0333 x 1.7
25 (25,000 calories/day)
Very Heavy
450 x 0.0363 x 1.90
31 (31,000 caloriesday)

What makes me consider Valhalla a “hard keeper” though, is the fact that getting this amount of calories into her is a daily chore. 

After a couple of months, Halla decided she did not like alfalfa in any form. Periodically I try again to see if she has changed her mind, but she will not put alfalfa into her mouth. It can be in a pellet, cube, hay, or part of a complete feed and she will not eat it. 

She is not quite as picky about beet pulp, because she will eat it if it is part of a complete feed. But wet beet pulp? Are you kidding me? Why would any horse eat something wet and mushy? She feels similarly about oils. You can see the disgust on her face as she tries to get that oily residue off her whiskers by wiping her face on her legs. She can’t understand why someone would contaminate perfectly good food with oil and make it inedible. 
She ate rice bran for awhile, then decided it was not horse food either. 

I’ve tried every type of hay available and she eats them all the same. As long as it is a good hay, she will eat it. However, she eats hay by nosing around for awhile and then taking a few strands, chewing them up completely and then doing it again. Due to this process, it can take her many hours to eat just a few pounds of hay. I’ve never been able to get her to consume more than 10 lbs of hay, even if I switch it out for fresh, and even if I give her 18 to 20 hours to try to eat as much as she can. She grazes the pasture the same way – a few bites, then stops to look around. 

Sometimes I wondered if she had low grade ulcers. However, when she actually had ulcers I saw the difference. She would stand in front of her hay and “pretend” to eat it, grinding her teeth but not taking food into her mouth. After Omeprazole, her eating went back to normal. I also gave her Equishure for several months after her ulcer treatment to prevent any hind gut acidosis and she did not eat any better than usual.

Since I can’t get calories into this horse through an adequate amount of hay, I’ve worked her through about every type of horse feed known to man. It seems after a time that she gets bored of a certain taste and doesn't eat as much. Several months ago I switched her to a few pounds of oats along with another complete feed (Triple Crown), and she has been eating the oats well, along with black oil sunflower seeds to add calories and fat. 

So my rescue horse has averaged around $200 a month for her extra hard feed, not including hay. That’s more than double what it costs to feed my other horse. The cost of feeding one horse versus another should be something to consider when thinking about the affordability of owning a horse or a second horse. If I was thinking of buying a large Thoroughbred, I’d think it might cost around what it costs me to feed Valhalla, which shows that many smaller horses, especially rescues could also cost a lot to feed.


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## gottatrot

Many people tell me they prefer cold and dry winter weather over the rain we often have. Not me. It was bitterly cold today, and although I know a temperature in the 30s doesn't seem bad to a lot of people, it is a damp cold here and the wind blows constantly.








It felt like a good day to roll...








The horses seem to enjoy the sun, even if it feels cold to us. They are out in a few of these large pastures during the day, 12 horses in all, 2 or 3 in each large pasture. 

This afternoon when I came to ride Valhalla, a herd of about 30 elk was ranging just outside the pasture fences, by the low hills. Another boarder had turned two horses out together to see if the one horse (usually alone) would gallop with the other. He was yelling, trying to get the horses moving.
Meanwhile, I was trying to saddle Halla just outside the pasture. 

I believe that no matter what happens when I am handling or riding a horse, it is not the fault of anyone other than myself if the horse has issues. Would I prefer if others weren't cracking whips, driving remote control cars through the barn aisle, or revving motorcycles just outside while I'm working with a horse? Sometimes. But I can either decide that this is an appropriate time and place to work with the horse, or not. I don't let myself get upset and especially I don't blame others if they don't notice that their actions are causing me to have difficulties. 

Today I decided that I'd rather bring Halla down the hill to the barn instead of trying to saddle her at the tie rack where she couldn't see her usual turnout friends, other horses were galloping around, and elk were shifting around the fields. She was still a little fidgety down below, but I made it work and safely tacked her up. 

Halla is like a dog I once had. He'd go out of his mind while waiting for you to get ready to take him on his run. He'd leap in the air, twitch, bump into things, and just be a lunatic. When you clicked his leash on and opened the door, he went into working mode and was super serious and steady. Halla is the same. People have said, "You aren't going to get on that horse, are you?" Because she'll be fidgety and excited many times when you're getting her ready. But put her by the mounting block and she gets really serious. Swing your leg over the saddle and she's working. She'll walk out steady, loose rein, working mode. 

It was so cold, Halla's coat fluffed out until she looked like a bigger horse. We went down to the beach, past some kids playing jump rope (seriously? Kids have no nerves or something - I swear they can't feel cold), past some people with dogs, and a few cars. We trotted, we cantered, and went about two miles. It was close to dark and I didn't want Halla to get too sweaty in the cold. 

There's a steep sand dune we come up to get off the beach. The footing is shifty, tricky, and it is the downfall of many horses. Meaning, they can stay calm and docile the whole ride but coming up that hill, the devil gets into them. I've seen some buck, leap, and do other silliness coming up the hill. Amore will walk or jog it almost all the time, but at the very top she always snorts and prances for about fifty feet afterward. Halla usually handles it better than most horses, but today between the cold, sharp weather and the settling dusk, it got her going a little. I felt her energy building as we started up, and I said, "Be serious." She did try, but at the end went hop, hop, and then did some jigging after we crested the hill. Then she looked over the dune grass, and I could tell she was really hoping something unexpected would pop up so she could do a little spook or bolt. But...there was nothing, just stillness and silence. She sighed, and continued. 

I got off and walked the last eighth of a mile home and she danced next to me. I'm not sure why, but she enjoys prancing when I get off. She doesn't pull, or try to get home fast, she just does a fancy, high-stepping jog while arching her neck and swinging her head around like she's real proud of herself or something. 
Maybe some people would want her to walk, but to me it looks like joy, and I see nothing wrong with a horse being happy.
Probably joy that her food and friends were waiting for her back at the barn.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> She doesn't pull, or try to get home fast, she just does a fancy, high-stepping jog while arching her neck and swinging her head around like she's real proud of herself or something.
> Maybe some people would want her to walk, but to me it looks like joy, and I see nothing wrong with a horse being happy.


What a lovely evocative post about your ride! I can just smell the sea air and feel the sand yielding under her hooves as she breasted the dune.

Thanks for that sentence about a happy horse. 
It made my New Year's morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gottatrot

I meant to trim both my horses' hooves today, but instead I trimmed a horse for a friend and then went out for two rides, one on each of my horses. Each ride was about 3.5 miles long. I decided that in winter, it's best to ride when you can. Hoof trimming can be done anytime.

For the first ride, I went out on Amore, along with a friend. She rode Satin, another little Arab boarded at my barn. We call them the Arab twins. Many Arabs look similar, but these two are closer than most. They have the same huge, wide-set eyes, tiny muzzle, star on the forehead, and are almost the same color of bay. 








For the second ride, I didn't have a partner so took Valhalla out alone. This was about my fifteenth ride or so in my treeless Freeform saddle. What I noticed again is that most of my worries about a treeless saddle have been alleviated. The saddle is secure, doesn't slide around, and Halla moves out freely. The treeless style compensates for her asymmetrical shoulders, and she is moving straighter than ever before. So for my horse, I love it. 

However, for myself, there are some difficulties. Halla has a wide, round back with strong supporting muscles on either side of the spine. Her withers are not very high, but are long and flat, and she has huge shoulders. With a Haf saddle pad with inserts, her spine has a nice channel of air and the saddle stays off it. But in the very front of the saddle, the pommel touched her withers, so I added a second set of inserts. 

Now the saddle is quite wide, with that thick pad underneath. I'm finding that the width overcomes my physiological ability to ride fast and aerobically. Instead, I'm having to use muscular strength at a fast trot and canter to stay off Halla's back (sitting her gaits is not comfortable or easy). As with any anaerobic exercise, even a fit person tires after a time. So today after cantering about 1/4 mile, I had to slow her down due to my legs burning. 
That's not going to work because one of our riding partners has a fit, 11 year old Thoroughbred and she and Halla like to canter for long distances.

I've been thinking about my options. My initial thought was to keep it up, and gradually condition myself to this new width. However, I believe it will always require muscle power/anaerobic activity to two-point that widely, and there are limits to how long you can sustain a "power" activity, no matter how you train. 

Someone suggested that I take out the second set of inserts so they are not doubled, and try to shim only the front of the saddle at the withers for clearance. Since the single set of inserts cleared the rest of Halla's spine, I'm going to try that and see how it goes. 
I've heard it can take some adjusting and shimming to get treeless saddles to work, so I hope I can get things more comfortable because I want to use the saddle that works best for my horse.


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## gottatrot

Tomorrow is supposed to be nice so I decided to get my hoof trimming done tonight. In the barn, the lighting is a bit gloomy, so I wore a head lamp to get things done. As I was getting close to finishing, a friend drove up and asked if I'd trim her Mustang sometime. So I went ahead and trimmed him too, since I had my tools out.

If you know anyone who trims three or four Mustangs in a day, please give them my regards. This gelding I was trimming made all my super sharp tools seem dull and difficult to use. Nice hooves are wonderful...but so hard to trim! By the twelfth hoof I was hitting the wall. My left leg was failing me and starting to shake instead of standing firm. But I pushed through and finished. Arabs have good hooves and Mustangs have _great_ hooves. Nothing mushy or soft about them. The nippers make a loud "snap!" when you cut through the wall.

Some posts on here and a recent conversation with a friend had me musing today. On my mind were some horses I've known that were sensitive and yet had been treated as if they were stubborn. This produced some nervous horses that were difficult to calm down. 
It's interesting that we call horses "reactive," when many horse handlers I've seen would more appropriately be labeled reactive. If a horse makes a wrong decision, these handlers react as suddenly and strongly as a horse pulling back or exploding into bucking. 

One horse I rode became very nervous whenever you shifted your weight or applied a leg cue. He'd been trained so that if you cued it was expected that he would immediately and quickly leap into action. If you shifted your weight, he'd back up very fast three steps, or if you applied one leg lightly he'd spin to one side. I'm sure having the horse this responsive made his trainer look good but the horse was a nervous wreck. He was always waiting for your sudden cue, and after he gave his response he'd always suck in his breath and tense up, as if waiting to see if his response had been wrong and how you were going to react if it was. This horse became much happier when he was taught to relax and trust that the rider would give him a clear cue and time to respond, and an opportunity to fail and try again once in awhile.

Sometimes people treat their horses worse than machines. If a car doesn't start on the first try, you don't leap out of the front seat and smash the hood with a hammer. You try again. We don't even speak a horse's language, yet we expect them to understand us perfectly every time we give them a cue. Sometimes when I'm working with my horse, I imagine I'm in a foreign country trying to ask someone to move out of my way. I could gesture, or touch them lightly, but I doubt if they didn't move immediately that my next response would be to yell and hit them with something. Many horses have learned these cues, but I've seen so many people handling a horse for the first time, or a horse they don't know, and this is their reaction when the horse does not respond to them. 

Something I've been trying to learn is that no matter how strong my intent is, that does not translate into how well my horse understands what I want. I may want to get a horse to move sideways over toward a gate to open it, and no matter how much I want that, the horse may have no clue that is what I'd like him to do. So if I give a cue with that intention, there is no reason for me to suddenly freak out and punish the horse if he doesn't understand.


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## gottatrot

I like this picture. Halla is on the right, and she's so small compared to her Thoroughbred friend Nala, but she is the uncontested boss of the herd. 








As the boss, Halla takes her job seriously and often is the one standing watch while Amore and Nala loaf around. Amore is riding on Halla's laurels and is #2, able to boss big Nala around too. As Halla's spoiled little minion, she gets first pick of where to hang out.








Halla expects the best treatment, and came over to see why my friend was brushing her own horse and not her. 








My friend did as Halla commanded. I think boss horses are good at manipulating people too.
















Right there, that's the spot.


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## gottatrot

It was our friend Satin's 23rd birthday today. 








She's about two years younger than Amore, who is almost 25.
It's tough to know around here...will it be rain?








Or will it be shine?








Both, as usual.








The seafoam became a living entity, scampering across the sand, flying in the air and dancing around. Amore kept a close eye on it, leaping to the side a couple of times just before it caught her. Obviously, I knew what she suspected: these were children of the rabbit on Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Potentially lethal to the bravest of knights or their horses.








My friend said Satin was one of the most fun horses she's ridden. I'm trying to convert her over to the dark Arab side. She owns a QH. We cantered slowly at first and then the two mares went Wheeeeeee!! down the beach.
























I find my girl rather spry for 24. Who am I kidding? She's spry for any age.


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## gottatrot

I don't mean for this post to sound judgmental in any way, or like I'm just so proud of my horse handling skills. I give full credit to the difficult horses that have taught me some things, and I know I'm likely to be humbled by one at any moment. My experiences today just highlighted some things to me.

Two gals I ride with regularly were meeting me at the barn. One of them was planning to borrow a ride from a fellow boarder. What we know about this horse is that his owner is new to horses and has had difficulty riding him. After the owner broke some ribs falling off for the third or fourth time, I offered to ride the horse and evaluate him. My evaluation was that the horse was well trained, mellow and seemed fine for a beginner horse. The owner proceeded to ride and fall off again. He then had a trainer come and evaluate his horse and give him some pointers. We all are hopeful he will learn more horsemanship and how to work better with his horse. They have done extensive groundwork and can do some fancy moves in the round pen.

When I arrived at the barn, I saw the girl who planned to ride this Mustang standing just outside the pasture, holding him on a lead rope. She said, "I'm not sure if it's going to work out to ride today. He's spooked at that chair several times and ran right into me, I mean right into me! I'm not sure I can get him to go down the hill past that chair." Someone had set a plastic chair down next to the pasture fence. 

She told me she wasn't used to horses that spooked into the handler instead of away. Hmm, made me wonder because the horse has had lots of ground work and is normally easy to handle. But I know any horse can have a bad day.
For some reason my usual response is to give a silly anecdote. I'm not sure why, I think seeing someone upset makes me feel that if I tell about something that's similar to what they're experiencing, only worse, that they might feel it's not so bad. So I said, "Did you ever try leading Duncan, the giant 17 hand draft horse at our last barn past a kitten? He'd try to jump on your lap!" Well, she did smile and I thought relaxed a bit. I said, "Maybe if I go get Halla, he'll follow her down the hill."

It felt wrong just to leave my friend standing there, however, so a moment later I said, "Here, hang on a second," and took the Mustang's lead rope. "Come on buddy, let's check out this chair." He followed me for three steps, then froze. I let out a whole bunch of lead rope (he had a really long one) and said, "OK, let's go another way." I circled him back away where he couldn't see the chair, and then we came alongside the shed until we were very close to the chair but couldn't see it yet. Then I acted like I wasn't leading him and relaxed, just wandering out next to the chair while singing a little song about "there's nothing wrong, it's a beautiful day..." etc. My usual Arab treatment. He wandered after me and past the chair, and then suddenly we were on the other side of it and he was only two feet away. At that point, he saw it was a chair, for goodness' sake, and I swear he was embarrassed. He immediately put his head down and started eating grass while looking at me sideways. 

I got Halla, we went down the hill and saddled the horses. Here's our buddy, the Mustang. His name is Diesel.








The horse's owner was very concerned about us taking him out. I think the concerns were that he would get his rider off and head for the barn, reinforcing the behaviors that he'd gotten away with before. In addition, I'm sure there was concern about the rider, our friend getting hurt.
Although I'd ridden this horse and knew the rider so I doubted those concerns were necessary, I had concerns of my own. The other riders and I discussed our rules, which were that Diesel would have a calm ride, that we wouldn't let him be afraid or get him amped up, and that we wouldn't take him out for more than his fitness level warranted. 

We had a lovely ride. He did try to turn back to the barn initially, but he was well trained and responded to the rider's cues. 








Halla was a bit excited and I couldn't let her do more than a very slow canter since we were doing a babysitter ride. But I know it's good for her to have slower rides too, and she was controllable, although a bit put out from time to time. We were very responsible, and I hope this experience will be good for the horse. 

It is interesting to me that while people will say they understand others are better, more experienced riders than they are, they still often feel their own horse is a real challenge when in reality they may have a quite mellow, compliant horse. I've taken out enough horses for other people to help the horse gain experience, when honestly it was only the rider that needed help. It's something I wish people would understand, that through their lenses a horse might be difficult, bad, obnoxious, etc but the horse is only doing what any horse would. If any horse can step to the side, lose the rider and then trot home and eat, they will probably find that quite appealing.


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## gottatrot

Once upon a time, I really believed that if a horse bit me and if I punished them strongly enough, they'd never try anything like that ever again. But there are horses and there are horses...
It probably would sound strange to someone that didn't handle a very strong mare or stallion, but I believe that Halla would bite or kick me if I ever did something really wrong. She doesn't believe that someone can "earn her respect" and keep it for good. No horse will stay her leader unchallenged or undeserved, and no human can either. 

Tonight I picked a scab off Halla's leg, which pulled her skin painfully and she set her teeth on my leg. She has done this to me on occasion; set her teeth on me. I always get as big as I can, and aggressively step toward her, give a loud verbal reprimand, stomp, slap some part of her body. She understands and tips her head at me, which means OK, you are still the big horse. But I also understand she is telling me she won't tolerate me causing pain unfairly, and it is a warning. She is saying that I hurt her, there was no call for that, and that she could bite me hard if she wanted to.

Interestingly, in the times when she was really injured, such as when she fell and denuded her knees or when she got cut badly on a fence, she allowed me to cause pain. I can tend her injuries, and she understands that. When she is not injured and gets really amped up and starts losing control of her body (head moving everywhere, butt swinging around) and I grab some skin on her neck in my hand and squeeze, she understands I am telling her to chill. A trainer told me that stallions grab mares on the neck, so sometimes with strong mares that is the only way to get them to listen. When she is really upset and reacting to something, this does get her to pay attention a lot of times, so it is a good tip.

I've had people tell me that Valhalla behaves like a stallion. Perhaps she is one of those mares with a reproductive issue that creates testosterone. I've certainly never seen her behave as though she is in heat. She is consistently a strong horse, and one that gives you respect but you can't take it from her. I don't know about this comparison, because the only stallions I've handled have been docile. These stallions were the kind that amateur owners tend to keep as studs, because there was no real reason to geld them since they were so amenable and could live in close proximity with other horses. The only stallions I've seen that weren't docile lived in their stalls and screamed and climbed the walls, so I never saw them being handled. I briefly boarded at a barn with two studs like this, and they were channeled into an arena while their stall was cleaned, and then channeled back into their stall after. Any vet or farrier care was done under sedation.

I don't believe my technique is at fault with Valhalla, because she's never harmed me and I've owned her about six years now. Also, I have given many horses the same amount of grief after trying to bite me and had them never try again. And I've known two other mares that were much, much more aggressive than Halla and would try to bite you nearly every day. One I called "Cherry Bomb" and my job was to lead her out to pasture with my sweet Amore, who lived in dread fear of her. One day I turned to look at Cherry just as she was threatening Amore and ended up getting bitten in the face. Just a jagged cut above the nose as the big old tooth swiped by. That mare was not mine, nor was I involved with training her, and I could never figure out how to reprimand her and get it to stick. She wanted to fight, welcomed it. In general she did understand she wasn't to harm me, but I had to handle her with very strong body language and safety measures.

The other mare that was so aggressive was one that was a megalomaniac. She literally thought she owned the whole world. When she walked, she swaggered, and when she entered a field the other horses would bow (figuratively speaking). It took over a year of working with her to get her to respect humans at all, and even then she thought that perhaps we were close to the same level as her but definitely not above her by very much. Oddly enough, there was a disconnect in the brain with both of these aggressive mares and they disassociated riding with being handled on the ground. On the ground they were always aggressive, but both mares were docile under saddle, respectful. Cherry was older and a bomb-proof beginner horse when ridden. The younger mare was green but went very gently in a snaffle and was soft and responsive. Halla is not docile under saddle. She requires the same amount of earning her respect when being ridden.

It can be difficult, because I do believe in the idea of "3 seconds to make them believe they're going to die," when horses act up. However, this gets trickier when horses respond to negative attention with interest, or if negative attention serves to get a horse's adrenaline going and amp them up. 

I've recently met another type of horse, one I call a "self-punisher." This gelding is mellow and docile, but deep inside he has this naughty side and once in awhile it comes out. I'm not sure if he comes by this self-punishing naturally, or if it is the consequence of people reacting too strongly to behaviors in a sensitive horse. Anyway, the other day I was going to lead this gelding in to dinner, but I was going to get another horse first so decided to tie him for a couple minutes. He knew this was going to delay his dinner, so as I led him up to the tie rack he stopped and then raised his front hoof and touched my leg with it. Immediately after doing this, he rushed backward, eyes bugging out, "I can't believe I just did that, I'm so bad!" There really was nothing more to do since he'd already punished himself so completely. I said sternly, "You know it was bad, I know it was bad, so don't do it again." Then he behaved perfectly.

Another day I was giving him an apple and he grabbed the whole thing out of my hand quickly instead of taking a bite. Immediately again his eyes bugged out and he cringed before running into the corner of his stall. He stood there for more than a minute, just cowering. Again, I saw no reason to punish a horse that punished himself. The next time I gave him a treat he remembered to do it nicely.


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## gottatrot

Well, I'm getting ready to try another saddle.

Sometimes I wonder if I have a problem. In general, I'm an easygoing person and tend to be content with what I buy. My car starts, I'm happy. If I buy some clothes and they're not terribly comfortable or a great fit, it rarely crosses my mind. My coat was supposed to be waterproof, oh well. I don't fuss about my bridles or halters or any other horse gear I have. Food? Whatever, stick it in front of me and I'll eat it.
But for some reason I've become very, very picky about saddles. And reins. Just can't get satisfied with my reins. 

It doesn't help that both of my horses are nightmares to fit saddles to. That may have started my problem. When I first bought Amore, I tried several western saddles from a used tack store and found an all leather Circle Y that fit well, as far as I understood saddle fit at the time. As with all the saddles I've ever bought, initially I just loved it. It was a good quality saddle and I took good care of it. 

Then one day I decided I wanted to try riding english. Since I had no clue about how difficult it might be to fit an english saddle to my horse, I bought one online. It didn't even remotely fit my mare...thinking she was a small Arab, I bought a saddle with a narrow tree and couldn't even get it to sit on her back. That was when I learned about the racket of buying and selling saddles online. By "racket," I mean I discovered that for the mere cost of shipping and inconvenience of advertising, saddles were a commodity that could easily be resold for the same price they were purchased for. So my problem began.

Once I had a hunt saddle, it turned out I needed a dressage saddle for my riding lessons. Three saddles for one horse? My husband had questions about that but I assured him that all the saddles were absolutely necessary. He admitted he did not understand how this whole horse thing worked.
One saddle would slip forward. One would feel as though it put my leg too far forward. Another might bridge a bit on my horse's back. The more I knew about saddles, the more critical I became. I'd fall in love with a saddle, ride in it for awhile, and then notice some tiny little fault and it would grow in my mind until I could not believe I was using the saddle at all. 

Saddles came and saddles went. At the time when I met my friends that were real hard-core distance riders, I thought riding in my western saddle on the trails was the only way to feel secure. I'd already learned the lesson that the saddle could beat you up as you came off the bucking horse. Now I learned that as my seat became more secure, the things that would get me off any saddle would have probably flung me to the ground even if I were wearing a seat belt. So there became not much difference between english and western. 

I also learned the lesson about rough trails and a saddle with a horn. My sternum kept getting bruised as I threw myself flat to avoid low hanging branches so I learned to flatten to one side. Sudden leaps over ditches and downed old growth trees found the horn getting hooked in the front of my shirt or bra and causing all sorts of problems. My previously well-used western saddle was relegated to the tack room at home and rarely saw the light of day again. The english saddles that had worked so well for showing and lessons didn't fit either me or the horse well enough for hard-core riding, so more saddles came and went on trial.

Each time I buy a saddle I think, "This is it." I truly believe that the saddle and I will grow old together, and perhaps I will pass it on to my non-existent children or their progeny someday. As I've learned more and bought more quality saddles, the process of disillusionment takes longer. But the beautiful Lovatt and Ricketts saddle that has been sitting in my tack room for the past few months is about to go on sale, and I don't currently own a western saddle at all after keeping one around just in case for a few years. 

The most recent thing that has me wanting a new and different saddle is that I've learned how far treeless saddles have come in the past few years. More and more, spinal clearance is being built into the saddle, and while I bought a treeless Freeform several months ago, I bought an older version and have been trying to get that clearance with the saddle pad alone, which is much harder. I was initially quite happy with the Freeform (story of my life), and it does stay off Halla's spine with the special saddle pad. BUT, unfortunately that much padding under this type of treeless has me sitting so wide it is uncomfortable for me. Perhaps if I hadn't been a runner for 25 years my legs would adapt, but I've given it several months and my leg muscles are just too tight and strong I believe. It's not like I'm going to quit running.

So I have a Ghost treeless coming for a trial period. Supposedly these are one of the best for having a narrow twist and also good spinal clearance for the horse. I want Halla to be able to move her asymmetrical shoulders without getting pinched by the saddle tree, which has always been an issue with a treed saddle. The larger muscle on her left shoulder attaches so far back that any saddle with a tree slides to the right constantly, even with panel and pad adjustments. Since this problem has gone away with the treeless Freeform, I have hopes of more and better riding to come. The tendonitis I have had in my left leg for years from keeping pressure on the left stirrup at faster gaits to keep the saddle in line is clearing up. 

I couldn't have a better dog, or cat, or husband or horses. I've always kept things and never let them go until they wore out or died. 
Except for saddles...can't ever be satisfied with a saddle for very long. I keep hoping that someday I'll find the "right one," but I've never yet had a long term relationship with a saddle. Keep on dreaming, right?


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## knightrider

I, also, have gone through perhaps 20 saddles trying to find ones that fit my three ridged back Pasos. I am terrible because I now own 11 saddles for 4 horses. My Isabeau has her own ideas about what saddle she will allow on her back. The ones that seem to fit her rather well, cause her to kick out violently and spin on the lead rope. The saddle that seems to not fit her well at all, she accepts. Luckily the saddle she likes is quite comfortable to me, so I ride her in it. If I push through the kicking and spinning and ride her in the saddle that appears to fit her, she bucks, stops, backs up, and acts really unhappy the whole ride. 

My heart horse Chorro is super super hard to fit. It doesn't help that I long to ride English. I grew up riding English and jumping. Chorro is a terrific jumper. I once found a beautiful Collegiate saddle in great shape for $100. It seemed to fit Chorro perfectly and I loved it. Every ride, after about a half hour, my ankles and knees would hurt terribly. I tried EVERYTHING to make that saddle comfortable for me--longer stirrups, shorter stirrups, a seat pad, a different seat pad, a different saddle pad. I finally sold it because I wasn't riding in it.

With 11 saddles, I think now I have saddles for every horse that actually fit and are comfortable for me and my daughter. (Still wish I had an English saddle, but oh well). I wish you the best of luck finding something that fits both you and your horses.


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## gottatrot

My demo Ghost saddle arrived today. 
This is the model, it's called a "Roma." The saddle itself is the smooth leather looking portion in the picture...the other part pictured is the saddle pad that is made by the same company.









Since I didn't have time to ride or bring it to the barn to try on the horses, I just looked it over a bit. I'm starting to get used to the non-traditional look of treeless saddles. At one point it really bothered me how strange some of the models look, but I've finally decided that's not as important as having my horse be comfortable. 

My first impressions were good. It is very small, and even lighter than my Freeform treeless. Since I've read a lot of reviews from other people, I was prepared for some things. The leather is nice, but as others have said it's not the same quality as some of the high end english saddles such as my Arabian saddle company saddles. The saddle doesn't cost half the price of those saddles new, either, so that is understandable. 

Some things that I really like are that the pommel is high and the panels underneath are made so the spinal clearance is built into the saddle. Modern treeless saddles are getting better at this. On my wide-backed horses I doubt I will need a pad with inserts, but we'll see. 
Another thing that seems like it will be good is that the girth billets are made so they can slide either to the front or middle of the saddle so you can adjust for where the horse's girth groove is. 

Some things I'm not sure about yet are the stirrup leathers. It's nice there are two positions so you can put them in a more forward or more rearward position. What I'm not used to is that the stirrups connect underneath the flap but then exit either through a slit in the flap or else stay completely underneath it. I'm not sure how much this will affect me...it might even be a positive change. I've never thought about how the movement of the stirrup leathers up by my thigh and knee might be integral to my riding. Western fenders feel like they put too much strain on my knees, even when they've been "trained." 

Another thing I'm not used to is having a thigh block. I sat on the saddle on a saddle rack to see how that felt to me. I've ridden in Aussie saddles and that was something I disliked: having a thigh block that restricted my leg movement. This thigh block seems to sit higher and it's not very large, so I'm hoping it won't bother me. Otherwise there are other styles of Ghost saddles that don't have a thigh block. 
I hope I'll have time to ride both horses in the saddle tomorrow, at least briefly.


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## MrsKD14

gottatrot said:


> My demo Ghost saddle arrived today.
> 
> This is the model, it's called a "Roma." The saddle itself is the smooth leather looking portion in the picture...the other part pictured is the saddle pad that is made by the same company.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since I didn't have time to ride or bring it to the barn to try on the horses, I just looked it over a bit. I'm starting to get used to the non-traditional look of treeless saddles. At one point it really bothered me how strange some of the models look, but I've finally decided that's not as important as having my horse be comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> My first impressions were good. It is very small, and even lighter than my Freeform treeless. Since I've read a lot of reviews from other people, I was prepared for some things. The leather is nice, but as others have said it's not the same quality as some of the high end english saddles such as my Arabian saddle company saddles. The saddle doesn't cost half the price of those saddles new, either, so that is understandable.
> 
> 
> 
> Some things that I really like are that the pommel is high and the panels underneath are made so the spinal clearance is built into the saddle. Modern treeless saddles are getting better at this. On my wide-backed horses I doubt I will need a pad with inserts, but we'll see.
> 
> Another thing that seems like it will be good is that the girth billets are made so they can slide either to the front or middle of the saddle so you can adjust for where the horse's girth groove is.
> 
> 
> 
> Some things I'm not sure about yet are the stirrup leathers. It's nice there are two positions so you can put them in a more forward or more rearward position. What I'm not used to is that the stirrups connect underneath the flap but then exit either through a slit in the flap or else stay completely underneath it. I'm not sure how much this will affect me...it might even be a positive change. I've never thought about how the movement of the stirrup leathers up by my thigh and knee might be integral to my riding. Western fenders feel like they put too much strain on my knees, even when they've been "trained."
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing I'm not used to is having a thigh block. I sat on the saddle on a saddle rack to see how that felt to me. I've ridden in Aussie saddles and that was something I disliked: having a thigh block that restricted my leg movement. This thigh block seems to sit higher and it's not very large, so I'm hoping it won't bother me. Otherwise there are other styles of Ghost saddles that don't have a thigh block.
> 
> I hope I'll have time to ride both horses in the saddle tomorrow, at least briefly.



Good luck! I know the saddle fitting thing is a night mare! I'm in the same boat trying to fit a new endurance saddle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bsms

I've had 2 English saddles, 2 Australian and 5 or 6 Western. Both English were Bates with CAIR panels, and I came to hate CAIR. Felt like I was riding on a beach ball. I like the Australian ones, but my horses move better in the western ones. My conclusion was that it has to do with the channels. My horses all have "A-frame" backs, not inverted "U" backs. The channels were both too narrow in my English saddles and put too much pressure close to the spine. The Australian saddles I own have wider channels, but still more pronounced than the way the western saddles fit, with no ridge lines and 1" of felt underneath.

As a rider, I pay for that extra width, because it forces my legs further apart. There is a huge difference in feel between the "twist" of my Aussie saddles and the western ones, particularly the roping quality western saddle. I'm getting in almost no riding now since I'm gone during daylight most days (and will for another couple of months, although the days are getting longer). So I've got my roping saddle on a sturdy stand, and in the evenings I sit on it and rock back and forth with my legs hanging. I find 5 minutes a day of that is doing wonders for stretching my hips. 

The drawback to my short term employment is almost no riding time now, but the payback is good money coming in for a while. I'd like to get a good dressage saddle - well, good as in $1000-$1500, not "$2000+ good"! In spite of my comments on another thread that are taken to be anti-dressage (or anti-English), I think an English saddle with a wide channel and minimal or no knee blocks would make a great saddle for riding Bandit.

Of course, the dressage saddles I see online seems to mostly come with huge leg blocks and look like they belong an a 17 hand warmblood instead of a slender Arabian, so I may end up staying with my western ones. But SOMEONE has to make an English saddle that would fit an Arabian back well, and be OK for a rider who doesn't want the saddle to tell him where to put his legs!

The Roma looks...well...hmmm...intriguing. :think: I'll be interested in how it turns out.


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## gottatrot

Knightrider, I could easily see how a person can end up with that many saddles.

MrsKD, hope your saddle hunt goes well.

BSMS, I've also tried the CAIR panels in a Wintec saddle and wasn't a fan either. But the couple of Wintecs I tried did not fit either the QH, TB, or Arabs we used them on. The changeable gullet only works if the rest of the saddle fits decently enough. 
A couple of my friends who are quite a bit heavier than me ended up going back to endurance/western type saddles because of the weight distribution issues. They weigh between 180-250 range. Over long distances their horses kept having back issues in english saddles. One problem I believe is the seat size. It's a lot more difficult to keep the weight far enough forward as the seat gets bigger.

While I used to get saddles for how I was training or showing, in the past few years I've only bought saddles for purely practical reasons. What fits me, fits the horse, doesn't interfere with my riding. So the first dressage saddle I owned was for my dressage lessons, but the one I have now I bought for Amore's special saddle fitting needs. For Amore dressage saddle = straight flap = she can move her shoulder.

I kept hearing that Arabian Saddle Company (now called Lovatt and Ricketts) saddles were made to fit Arabs especially. They are very expensive new, and the older versions I saw used were obviously not made for distance riding with narrow channels that sometimes got narrower in the back. Luckily, I found a used Ellipse dressage saddle for $1,100 that was only several years old. That was about three years ago, and as picky as I am about saddles I have to say this is a very good saddle. It would be hard for me to part with it.

This saddle is the first I've used on Amore that didn't slide forward at least a bit when going down hills. She has a forward girth groove that is directly behind her elbow, and her shoulder is so flat it basically melds into her barrel. If you look at her from the front, she widens out right behind her girth groove dramatically so she almost looks like a light bulb shape. Her back is super short, and she has no withers. So basically she's a nightmare to fit. She's a good weight, that's just her anatomy. For the saddle to be behind her shoulder the billets have to come right out of the front of the saddle and that makes most western saddles and many english saddles rock or tip.

In these pictures you can see how small Amore really is...the girl on her in the left picture is about 5'4" 135 lbs and she looks big on her. That saddle was a Stubben Rex and it might be hard to see but it comes way up on her shoulder. The Lovatt and Ricketts dressage saddle on the right just clears her shoulder when she has her leg way back as in this pic. That's the best I've been able to do. But this saddle hugs around her round body (XW tree) and I've gotten used to riding with this straight leg since a more forward flap can't accomodate her shoulder. Also notice how short the saddle is, this is a size 17" and as you can see I'm sitting just behind her withers but there's not a lot of room leftover behind the saddle. Her back is super short and she overtracks a full hoofprint so her hind hoof steps over where her front one was at the walk.








My point is that these saddles fit Arabs better than other brands I've tried, and they also are high quality. The leather on these saddles have not changed at all in the three years I've had them, and in three years I've worn deep wear marks into the leather of cheaper saddles. Not to mention both of my L & R saddles are the most comfortable for the rider of any english treed saddles I've been in. The seats are soft. The Ellipse model does not have the big thigh blocks either, and if I shorten the stirrups to ride Halla my knee goes out over the edge of the flap. 

Here's a friend of mine riding in the saddle, she's about 5'8" and rides with a shorter stirrup so her knee goes over the flap. The picture is dark, but Amore's shoulder is so flat that from this angle the saddle looks like it's on her neck almost. It's probably too dark to see, but I was in the middle on Halla in the other L & R saddle which is a Sylvan/all purpose model. That one works a lot better if you don't want such a straight leg.
My friend on Amore is a jumper so feels more comfortable with a shorter stirrup and also on thoroughbreds to be honest, but she likes 
Amore.


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## bsms

Bookmarked so I can refer back when I'm in the "English saddle buy mode", hopefully in April.

Cowboy has the disappearing shoulders. Bandit has big shoulders. I'll need to decide if I'm going to keep Bandit before I buy any saddles for his build - although he is similar to Trooper.


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## gottatrot

*Ghost Saddle Demo*

Oops, sorry the photo disappeared from the last post. I always forget you can't move them around in Photobucket to another album or they lose the link. Here it is:









Yesterday I was able to do a short ride on each of my horses with the Ghost saddle. Today I was only able to ride Halla in it, also a short ride.
I really wanted to get down to the beach today. Being stubborn is a quality I have that sometimes is helpful and sometimes is not. Stubbornly I saddled up Halla as it began to rain, and was going to head for the beach regardless of the weather. As we headed west past the outdoor arena, Halla began bracing herself against the wind and the rain was pelting into our faces. The wind was probably around 30 mph and we were not even out in the open yet...reluctantly I decided it would be better to stay and ride in the outdoor arena (we don't have an indoor one at the barn).

When people talk about their horses being naughty or hyper or stubborn or spooky I always wonder about what good qualities those horses have. Halla is admittedly a very difficult horse. Many days she won't stand still to be saddled. Many days she won't be calm and often riding her requires constant attention and focus with no chance to relax and enjoy the ride. Yet Halla has some very admirable qualities that make her a great horse. For instance, today I could have ridden her to the beach and the wind could have battered against us and she would have still gone out for me. Amore will refuse if she thinks the weather is too bad. Sometimes Halla spooks, but she is very brave and will go on past horse-eating monsters even when she is afraid. 

Today, each time we came around the far corner of the arena the wind blew strongly into our faces but Halla gamely pushed forward, trotting or cantering through it. 

Here's the saddle on Halla:











Since I haven't purchased the saddle or pad yet, I put another thin pad to keep the Ghost pad clean. In the first picture Halla is wondering what I am doing since we usually saddle up and ride off right away instead of standing around taking pictures. The stirrup leathers are my own barefoot ones since the Biothane ones that came to try with the saddle were too long for me. 

Someone said these saddles look "perched," but it doesn't feel like that on the horse. It feels very similar to a treed saddle, and because you sit a bit higher I think this fixes the wideness problem I was having in my other saddle. Since I've been riding for so many years, I'm not used to being too sore to walk right for a couple days after riding, which is what the Freeform did to me. This saddle has not made me sore yet, and I can use my legs without feeling they are too wide to be effective.

One of my biggest issues with a saddle is whether or not I can get up off of it. If a horse leaps over a ditch or starts bucking I need to get off the horse's back so I can stay balanced over my stirrups and not get thrown around. This was easy to do in the saddle. The thigh blocks don't hinder two pointing or getting off the horse's back. The only time I felt them against my leg was walking on Halla. At trot and canter they were a non-issue. I'm not sure, I might need the Firenze model for her which has more angled thigh blocks. On Amore the saddle felt just right, but I always ride her with a longer leg. 

It is super comfortable but I think some people who ride treeless want the saddle to squish down and form around you. The ghost doesn't do that. It stays firm but is a lot more moldable than the Freeform. I think Halla likes it better because although her shoulder could slide under the Freeform without causing pain, this one doesn't interfere at all. In the arena she picked up the canter very easily, while in the Freeform she bucked until she got used to it. 

My criteria now will be to see if the thigh blocks will bother me on a longer ride, and if the saddle doesn't ride forward on Amore down hills. My initial thoughts are that this saddle is great and I just need to figure out which horse it is for, and whether I'll get a second one in this model or a different one. 

One thing I can say is that whoever made this saddle actually rode horses. Many saddles I've been in made me ask if the person who made it ever sat in the darn thing. Everything is made to be useful, including when I went to carry the saddle up the hill I realized the pommel is made so it is a carrying handle. The balance is superb. It's always a fight to maintain an independent seat on Halla since she is powerful, downhill and crooked (asymmetrical shoulders). If anything goes wrong my balance gets thrown off and I have to work hard not to use my arms. With this saddle I felt like I was finally able to sit back and use my seat and legs during transitions, with my arms staying completely independent, which is how I can ride most horses.


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## gottatrot

Yesterday we had quite the ride, and today we had _quite_ the ride. 

Yesterday I tried to take Halla to the beach but there was no beach due to very high surf. We went down the dune and back up when we got to the ocean, and I tried riding along the top of the dune but it was so deep I thought it would be easy to take a misstep. The weather was calm, warm, a little sunny and the horses were spookier than anything. Halla did a couple big spooks, but when I took Amore out she won the prize. I'd given up on the beach idea so just rode Amore around the trails on the property and through the large, open field. When we entered a trail through some bushes, Amore did this spook where she hit a gallop in one stride, then did a sideways scramble before stopping with her legs all askew. 

My new saddle is so secure it's almost scary. I've ridden these spooky types of horses so long that I depend a lot on my body moving in the saddle as a signal for me to instinctively react. When Amore did that giant spook, I had her on a totally loose rein. Normally I would have instantly shortened the reins and been ready to cue which direction to go, in case the spook turned into some type of run. Some signal went haywire since my body didn't move in the saddle, and I found myself sitting on Amore after the spook with a still totally loose rein in my hand. ??? I thought, this isn't good, I might have ended up galloping through some wicked bushes. 

Today, it was rainy, windy, and rather stormy. Six people were going out riding. What nuts we are. Two riders stayed and worked their horses in the arena while the other four of us went down to the beach. 
I was on Halla, in the new saddle. Someone asked, "Hey, aren't you trialing the saddle? On the beach in the rain?" But I explained I'd already decided to keep it, and was sending payment today. 

The wind coming from the west was cold, and strong. The rain was so icy we couldn't decide if it was hail or rain, but our faces were too numb to differentiate the feeling. Yet the horses were still cheerfully heading toward the beach, Nala the Thoroughbred diving for the grass at every opportunity, Satin the Arab prancing along and Halla keeping a serious eye on both of them to keep them in line. 

When we arrived at the beach, the rain suddenly stopped, and as we turned north the wind faded down to a steady breeze. The sun peeked over the dark clouds and a bald eagle stood on a snag over the dunes, his white head gleaming with a rainbow spread across the sky behind him. We had been feeling we might have made a mistake to go out today, but now we looked around and felt how lucky we were. Everyone else was missing this, a sight worthy of being in a painting. 

Today there was still only a strip of beach due to the high, pounding surf. The foam whipping off the ocean was running in packs and some pieces were the size of basketballs. Satin, the Arab was the first to figure out that the foam bounced harmlessly off of horses. Halla took some flying canter leaps to avoid the foam before she figured it out too and settled. Nala got chased up the dunes by a pack of about twenty big chunks of foam that seemed determined to catch her. One hit her leg and she figured out these predators were illusionary too. 

We continued down the beach, Earl the QH lagging behind trying to step around every piece of flying foam. The three of us in front turned after a bit and saw Earl's rider was off, apparently she hadn't ridden it out when some foam finally caught him. Once she was back on, we went just a bit farther and then headed back. 

Now the rain was completely gone, so Satin's rider began lamenting the ride was over so soon. She and I saddled another pair of horses and went out again, this time I was on Amore and she was on her own mare, Rebel. A lot of the foam had blown away by the time we made it back to the beach. It seemed clear so we decided to canter, and I got left behind when Amore had to dance around some foam that suddenly appeared. But I got her going again, and we had a nice ride, but a short one since it was growing dark. 

Going up the dune, we were headed east and the west wind picked up sharply again behind us. Amore began to gallop in the deep sand. When we got to the top of the dune, the wind whistled around her legs and tail and she got a little too excited. She leaped in the air with all four legs, and then twisted her barrel and kicked both hind legs out to the side. It was like a capriole but with her own personal flair added. Again, the new saddle shocked me as I barely moved out of the seat. I'm not sure how a treeless saddle could be more secure than the treed ones I've ridden in, but now I've proven that it is. My friend coming up the hill behind me said she thought she was finally going to see me fall off. I think she was secretly disappointed. :wink:
I told her not to worry, I can fall off with the best of them.
It took several minutes to calm Amore down, she did another small bucky thing and then settled and we had a nice walk home.


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## knightrider

I hope you are printing these entries out to keep because your writing is really interesting and well-done. The descriptions of the dunes and the foam were so vivid! Wow! Pleasure to read.


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## gottatrot

Knightrider, thanks, you are too kind. Being a very left-brained person, I find that writing helps me hopefully exercise the right/creative side of my brain too. It gets rather neglected at my job, except for when I make creative right-brain leaps in logic that may or may not be useful (or safe!). Life seems like an adventure, and so many times I wish others could see what I'm seeing, even though the only way to give them the experience is words.

Today was too stormy to ride. Friday is the one day I am always off work, so there are several of us that plan to ride in the afternoons unless the weather is too bad. Today the wind was pretty sustained at 30 mph with 50 mph gusts, plus it was raining. The green space near my house has partially flooded and turned into a duck pond. Today there were about 30 ducks swimming around in the puddle, happy because they can easily tip down in the shallow water and reach the worms and slugs that are on the bottom. 

Being grounded, I took the opportunity to trim the mares' tails and manes. Both tails were on the ground since I hadn't trimmed them in awhile. I try to cut the tails off at around the hind pastern level. Any shorter and people laugh at my horses. When they're running, they lift their Arab tails so high that they can look as short as foal tails if I cut them too short. As you can see in the pics, even though their tails are touching the ground when they're relaxed, they become quite short in action. 
The one picture cracks me up because Amore is showing how she keeps her balance running sideways on a steep downhill...with such a short neck it's quite a feat. Behind her, Halla is doing the Arab bunny hop which is an example not to use if you're trying to explain how the canter is a "three-beat" gait. It can become almost a two beat gait with all four feet hitting the ground at almost the same time and then springing the horse up in the air again.

It was critical that I trim Halla's mane too. Lately it's been getting so tangled up in the reins that I've thought stock horse people have the right idea cutting their manes off short. But...her mane is pretty so I just trimmed the ends off. 

If you brush Amore she's like, "Hurry up and just don't get in my way, I'm eating." Halla has always left her food if you start grooming her and will stand waiting while you attend to her. Even if you put out her grain, she'll stop and wait to eat it until you're done. I've never been sure if it's that she appreciates how it feels and the attention, or if it's more of a thing where she stands and waits while you pay homage to her. As if it is her due. Today it was funny because she wanted to drink water, but she won't move away from being groomed unless it's an emergency. So she stood and craned her neck way around the corner of the building and drank water while stretched out so she could continue being groomed.


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## gottatrot

We had a good ride today. This picture is old but it's stereotypical Valhalla, so I thought it was a good one.
This is our friend, Nala who went on the ride with me and Halla today.








Nala has a huge trot. Apparently, on the last two rides Nala went on (I wasn't along), Nala was off galloping with her rider and took a block or two to slow down. She is an OTTB, and a hot little number.








Nala is going in a plain snaffle. We didn't have any running away today, just some fast cantering and trotting. Nala's rider says she doesn't have issues with control when she is out with me and Halla or Amore. I think that's because some of the other riders are not as experienced with riding in groups of hot horses. They might, for instance just take off cantering on their horse while not noticing another horse is a little excited or spooking at the time. Also, Halla is turned out with Nala each day and is dominant over her. Halla is very serious about watching out for danger and keeping her herd buddies safe. So I believe when Nala is on the beach with Halla she feels safer and relaxes more.

I've been trying to get Halla to do more trotting and less cantering alongside Nala. We managed for a little while, after Halla burned some energy off. It's very difficult for Halla since Nala trots at the speed of Halla's fast canter. She can't trot well enough to keep up with Nala, even though she does have a good trot. I wouldn't be surprised if Nala has a 16 mph trot. So even when we did trot for a little bit, we'd have to canter to catch up soon enough.

Halla is so hot. I don't know when or if that will ever change. She will be 20 in several months. I've tried literally hundreds of times to get her to be more calm, more relaxed. She does many good things. Whenever we walk, she can go along on a loose rein, and she transitions to a walk easily. When the other horse is going slow enough, we can jog alongside, also on a loose rein. But every single time we trot (and we've gone literally hundreds of miles), Halla asks to go faster and break into a canter. I just cannot get her on a loose rein at the trot. The canter is different. She likes to canter, and if there's no one racing by I can give her a loose rein for a few strides and she'll relax nicely. But after a short time she'll ask to gallop. She just wants to go faster.

At the trot I've spent some serious time breaking Halla back down to a walk or even halt when she tries to speed up. I've tried spending lots of time in the trot without cantering as well. Nothing I've tried gets her working steady at the trot. She can trot just fine on the lunge and sustain it well. She can also trot for long periods in an arena. But if we're riding out, she either wants to relax and go slow, or she wants to run. 

The other constant I've not been able to fix is Halla's odd separation anxiety. She always is anxious if I remove her from the herd and saddle her. This is demonstrated by her moving constantly back and forth at the tie rack while I saddle her. Once I have the saddle on, she becomes resigned and stands to be bridled. I can ride her off alone from this point, and it doesn't bother her. It's only the period of time between taking her out of the field and getting saddled that is tough. She can and does stand perfectly still to be saddled if another horse is around. She'll stand with another horse and have her hooves trimmed, stand and wait while I'm doing tasks, and doesn't pull back.

I've tried to give Halla lots of experience with this and it doesn't improve. It doesn't work to let her stand (she'll just wear a hole in the ground), and I've tried having her run into something sharp when she swings toward me but she doesn't care, she'll just get bloody and do it again. You can make her move away, but she'll just swing back soon enough.

Well, this is a horse that came with many issues...couldn't get caught, couldn't be separated from other horses without panicking and fighting for her life, reared and slammed her feet down when you tried to handle them, ran into people, kicked out, tried to bite when you cinched her and more. So I keep hoping one day Halla will grow accustomed to being saddled on her own, and meanwhile I just move around a lot and saddle her up anyway. Then, like an angel she stands perfectly still while I mount up and walks away calmly for our ride. 








Here is Nala (left), Halla (middle) and Amore (right) hanging out in Amore's night turnout field. Halla has to keep both the big mare and the little mare in line and it's a big job. Amore pays no attention to her surroundings and both horses are rather flighty and kind of air heads.


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## gottatrot

I heard some sad news yesterday...a horse friend had to be put down. Chase was a buddy of mine. Here he is several years ago with a friend on board. He was all QH but a very big fellow, about 16.2 hands. 
I trimmed his hooves for a couple of years when I kept my horses at the same barn where he lived. I had some success with correcting some of his hoof issues, but he still had a nagging unsoundness that came and went. Several experts worked on him and nothing could be found for certain without MRI. Sometimes it seemed like he improved a bit, but this winter he grew worse. His owner took him to another expert who said he was 99% sure Chase had a serious and chronic DDFT injury within the hoof. They tried a special shoe and complete rest, but there was no improvement so that was all they could do. 

Chase was 25 and had many owners over his lifetime. I blame his chronic injury on the fact I was told at least one of his owners only had his hooves trimmed twice a year. This contributed to the forward foot syndrome he had when I met him, which undoubtedly put a considerable strain on the DDFT. He also had terribly contracted heels and thrush all the way into the live tissue in the central sulcus. The fact that he had periods of relative soundness after that was only due to a lot of diligent care. 

The past five years he spent with a great owner whose primary concern was having a nice pet and taking care of him rather than riding goals. He was a great ride and I was on him quite a few times. Something that was very amusing to me was that Chase would get very excited sometimes and his muscles would gather up as if he were going to take off at a gallop. But Chase could only move collected, either from the way his muscles were or the way he'd been used over his lifetime. So he'd be breathing hard, excited, raring to go and each stride of the trot or canter would just go up and down without much forward progress. A horse could literally be walking beside Chase while he was saying, "Let's go, let's go, I'm so excited," and keep pace. This was on a loose rein! If you said, "Yes, let's go, take off," he'd just keep trying and never get anywhere. 

By the time I met Chase we all rode him very carefully, and did not let him try too hard. He was sweet and complaint. The only time I ever saw him do anything "bad" was when he bolted home with a beginner rider at a slow jog. The rider was crying, frightened, and Chase was determined to go get his dinner. It all happened in slooooow motion. 
Chase was good for packing beginners, kids, and he was reserved with a hidden goofy side. Sometimes he'd just shovel you around with his giant head, but it was his way of saying thanks for stuff like taking him for a graze on a nice patch of grass outside. 

At his last barn, Chase was out with a colorful crowd. Black, Grulla, Chestnut, Bay roan.  It's a horse rainbow. 








I'll miss him...








Yet another horse that taught me many things. The other two geldings in this photo taught me some things too. Horse personalities are as colorful as their coats.


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## gottatrot

Amore called out loudly and repeatedly when I went out to see her tonight. I saw she had a typical Amore problem going on. She'd eaten her night time allotment of hay inside her shelter, and it was raining outside. So she didn't want to go outside to graze on the green grass out there in the rain, but she also didn't have anything else to eat inside. The other five horses that live in the same setup as Amore were happy and contented. They'd eaten their hay and were dozing comfortably inside their spacious shelters. They knew that it was their own choice to stay inside and dry and that if they wanted to eat, they'd need to get wet. Amore was the only one in distress. I gave her a little more hay to make her happy.

Our stable just got a new shipment of hay in. We've been surviving and dealing with the last hay we got in a few months ago. It was some of the worst hay I've seen. Some of the bales seemed to have a large amount of dirt scraped up inside. Quite a few of the other bales had large amounts of blackberry bushes bundled up inside. It gets really annoying to grab several flakes of hay off a bale and get stickers jammed into various parts of your fingers and hands. The hay was also very yellow, stalky and almost like straw. 

The barn owner had been in a bind. Recently the beautiful orchard grass hay she'd been used to buying has been in a shortage and her usual source quit selling hay. We've heard people from China and Japan are buying large amounts and having it shipped over to feed their horses. Which is interesting since we visited Japan a couple years ago and went to a big horse park. I looked in the tack rooms and feed rooms and commented that their hay looked just like our hay at home. It probably actually was the same hay!

Well, the person who had brought that bad hay had put a few nice bales in front of the shipment so it wasn't until they were well into unloading that it became apparent the hay was not as nice as advertised. The hay seller gave a discount but we were still stuck feeding a lot of hay that was sub par. It wasn't harmful to feed it, but you had to feel sorry for the horses when you saw the pile of stickers they'd picked out of their feed and piled up each day. Plus with Valhalla it's been difficult keeping weight on over the winter since she's picking about good hay, much less that stalky stuff. Actually, we have one horse at the barn with dust and allergy issues and his cough was worse with this hay, so it was a little harmful for him.

Everyone is very happy now that we have hay again that smells good enough it makes a human feel they could almost eat it too. We have bales of orchard grass that are so green and dustless and leafy that it almost looks like alfalfa. I'm not sure if Amore knows I'm feeding her hay, actually, she probably thinks it's grain since her "grain" is mainly alfalfa pellets. We also have some valley hay that is barely less green and smells sweet like clover even though it's not. It feels good to give the horses food that is high quality and almost like you're "spoiling" them. One boarder has a horse with insulin resistance so she always tests the hay. Both types are high in protein and low in sugar and starch, so it will be good for all the horses. 

It cracked me up because my husband was helping me with horse chores the other day and I asked him how he liked the new hay. He commented that it seemed a little "finer gauge" than the previous hay. Like it was wire from the hardware store.


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## gottatrot

The weather has not been cooperating for riding lately. Today I saddled up Halla and it started hailing hard the moment I had her saddle on. We ran together into a shed and waited for five minutes, at which point the sky cleared. Even though Friday is the day others tend to ride with me, no one was game to go out today. So it was just me at the barn.

I rode Halla around the half mile hilly loop that goes around the main horse pasture area. By the time we got around only ten minutes later, I was regretting that I hadn't put a warmer coat and gloves on. My resolve faltered and I got off Halla deciding it was just too cold to ride. 
After cleaning Amore's shed and pushing a wheelbarrow around, it felt much warmer so I changed my mind again and decided it would be good to get the horses some exercise.

This time I saddled Amore, and took Halla along by ponying her. 
It's been an interesting thing learning to pony horses. I started doing it about four or five years ago. Everyone does it a little differently, and I think a lot has to do with the horses you are ponying. It feels pretty scary to try it at first. There's this feeling of "what if the horses take off?" "what if they both spook?" and "what do I do with the reins/lines?"

With my two horses I've found some things out while ponying. First, even though it might seem more dangerous to take two horses out together when the weather is windy and stormy like today, the two take comfort in each others' presence and behave much better together than they would apart. They very rarely spook when going along side by side, and on the occasions one of them has spooked, they always freeze and stare at each other while waiting to see how the other will respond. This indecisiveness keeps either one from doing anything independently, and so nothing happens. 

Secondly, I've thought it would be best to pony Amore off Halla since Halla is the leader of their herd. What happens if I pony Amore is that she wants to stay way behind and out of Halla's way, very respectfully. Then she walks too slow and I end up trying to drag her along while Halla chooses a faster speed. So I'm trying to get one horse to slow down and the other to speed up. 

When I pony Halla off Amore, Halla's presence keeps Amore moving forward. Halla wants to keep up with Amore, and she stays right next to me on a short lead line. Halla is protective of Amore so even if we trot she doesn't mind staying back and keeping an eye on her. With other horses she is competitive, but there is a different relationship with Amore who is her minion she feels responsible for. The only trick is that if Halla decides not to turn away from us, I can't use Amore to push Halla's space with her body. So I have to manage Halla with the lead myself on tight turns. Amore is too respectful to move forward if Halla isn't moving away. 

My personal rule is to pony in a safe area so I could always drop the horse I'm leading if I had to. My horses don't technically neck rein, but they can easily be ridden one handed since they move well off the seat and legs. So I usually hold the riding reins in one hand and the pony lead in another, but sometimes I hold all of the lines in both hands. It works pretty well.

It turned out once I started riding again that I got very cold again. The temperature wasn't too bad but the wind kept blowing and the air was damp. So our pony ride was short too, but I was glad to at least have some activity with the horses. It's kind of a fun view to see a horse you're ponying moving without any saddle or rider on from above. You can really see how their back moves.


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## gottatrot

Today was calm, cloudy and I had a plan to work on some things with Halla. I'm dreaming big, and my long term goal is to work toward having Halla maintain a trot on a loose rein and also to maintain straightness. Sounds easy, doesn't it? With many horses, very simple. Halla is a horse that will never be simple.

My idea was to go to the big field and attempt to get a trot on a loose rein for half the distance of one long side. One side is perhaps 1/8th of a mile long. Halla was calm when I went to get her. A huge flock of birds was twittering on the power lines that border the road not far from the horses' fields. As I led Halla away, Amore and Nala followed all the way to the gate, not quite sure what to do without Halla there to instruct them on their business.

I rode Halla down the hill to the field. There was a tractor parked in the outdoor arena, so my plan B to work on trotting in there wasn't going to be an option. We headed over toward the side of the field, and Halla went on high alert. I couldn't see or hear anything in the bushes, but I suspected elk. Halla wanted to rush on by, and there was no relaxing her. We were on a loose rein, but she knew she wasn't supposed to be running off, so was inhibiting herself by self-collecting at the trot and once in awhile adding some little canter strides. 

Since I had been down to the beach for a run earlier, I knew the tide had come in quite far and the sand would be narrow and shifting. For that reason I had planned to avoid the beach today, but since it wasn't working out in the field I decided to head down there to see if I could at least get Halla some exercise. 

As we came through the neighborhood that sits between our fields and the fields of beach grass, I looked down the hill and saw there was a herd of 30 or 40 elk grazing between us and the ocean on the flat part of the dunes. Halla stiffened for a moment at the sight, then became more relaxed than she'd been previously. Now we knew where the critters were and they weren't going to leap out and surprise us. 

It's tricky for me to guess how far to skirt around a herd without making them feel threatened. We gave them a wide berth, but the elk that stood on the edge of the group had horns and seemed to be to be a sentry of some kind. I kept going out until he put his head down to graze, at which point I figured we were far enough away, so we circled around to the beach. 

Once down the sandy dune, we couldn't see the elk far above us and Halla relaxed even more. After a time, I began attempting to get her to trot on a loose rein. I had her trot, she'd go about five strides, and then break into a canter. Then I'd tell her to walk, then tell her to walk with the reins, which was a firm series of strong half halts since she didn't want to. We kept repeating this exercise, with the idea that she might start anticipating my request for the walk and start thinking less about cantering since that was harder to transition from. Each time we hit the walk, she seemed calm on a loose rein. Each time we hit the trot, she became excited as she always does and wanted to go faster, faster, canter. After a few repeats, it seemed Halla was thinking a bit more that we might do a downward transition, but I think we got only about ten trot strides in a row. Since I didn't want her to get frustrated, we walked for awhile and then I let her canter.

Although I didn't want to, I had to use some strong rein pressure to the right to get Halla to stretch to the right and canter straight. On a loose rein, she was cantering with her neck canted to the left. I know why, she has a large left shoulder muscle, which makes her muscles tighter on that side. It's due to the high/low hoof that was quite pronounced when I got her, which meant she put most of her weight on the left, wide hoof, which overdeveloped the shoulder. She had improved this issue quite a bit over the past several years, until she had the vitamin E deficiency last spring and had the hind end weakness, which made her prop on her front end more, which exacerbated the shoulder asymmetry. Since then her crookedness has been quite pronounced.

By the time we left the beach, we'd done some straight cantering, and I let her put in a few gallop strides. Then we walked to relax and I hoped the elk hadn't shifted over our path as we headed up the dune. Thankfully they seemed to be drifting the other direction. When we got back to the field by the barn, Halla was once again suspicious. A second elk herd had been in the bushes along the edge of the field where she'd had a hard time relaxing. Now they came out and stood staring at us, only 8 or so but these were very large ones. We kept our eye on them but they stayed where they were as we pranced along home. 

It is a lot of work to ride Halla, but she has so many good qualities. How many horses could be trustworthy to take out alone to face two herds of elk and the pounding power of the Pacific ocean in the stormy winter? She gets excited but is so bold when it comes down to it. She wants to work with me, and she really tries. I liken her to the dog you take on a walk and he runs three times farther than you go, or the dog that is pulling on the leash after a five mile run. She has that kind of energy, and it is easier for her to be "good" after cantering for awhile. 

I'm thinking of putting her in a curb bit, to see if I could train her in a different way. My idea is that if I teach her this particular bit means "stop" and "go" only, she might see it as a different tool in the same way a dog knows he has a running harness and a "don't pull it's a casual walk" collar. I've tried and failed to use an english pelham on her. Since I didn't want to keep up contact with a curb, I theorized the two rein system might work out, with using the curb part for brakes only. It didn't work, because she barged through the snaffle rein (being used to the kimberwicke). Then when I applied the curb, the contact made her claustrophobic and she panicked. So I think I have to go back and attempt to teach her that the curb means stop or change gait only, and I'll have to have impeccable timing to release and reward immediately when she complies. I'll have to separate this work to only in the field and without anyone that might race her, so I can get her solid in the concepts before we go out on the beach. 

This is not a horse you can have go in a snaffle, because I've reschooled her in it three times with that hope in mind. "Start over, do the training properly," etc. The last time I thought she was super solid after several great months. Then something scared her on the trail, and we were flying and I realized she knows, has always known that a snaffle cannot stop her. Those who think every horse can go in a snaffle with the correct training have not ridden every horse. :wink:


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## gottatrot

I have developed a different perspective on training and horse behavior over the years. I could have shared this on another thread, but don't want to feel like I'm trying to argue or butt heads. It's not my goal to say "you might think you're experienced after so many years but you're wrong." Instead, I just want to present another perspective.

Training "holes" are always blamed for horses' behaviors, but horses are individuals. You can have thirty horses and train them all quite ideally so they are solid on all their cues in a snaffle, know how to use their bodies, etc. Then take them out into real challenging situations where they are using their minds and thinking and don't want to do what the rider thinks is best at the time. 

25 of them or so will follow their training (possibly 30 if we're talking about stock breeds such as QH, Paint, Appy). The other 4 or 5 will come up with ways to do what they feel is best. These horses require creative thinking and different tools to get them to do what the rider wishes, and they won't follow normal training paths. Once they know they can get away with things, they will always know that. Training doesn't cause amnesia. So they will keep it up until the right preventative tool is found or the right technique. 

For example: take a group of well trained horses out and gradually accustom them to galloping. Many will be excited the first time or two, then they will adjust and not get too excited, and you will be able to gallop them in a group, pick their position, and have them slow and stop when you wish. One may be different, and get more competitive with each time you gallop. That one may learn that a snaffle won't stop him when he is hot, and then you have choices about what to do. You can use a stronger bit. You can avoid galloping him. You can only take him out with another horse that will stop both of them. You can only gallop with 5 miles of open space in front of you.

One thing is certain: if you take him back into an arena and start over with his snaffle training, or do more groundwork to make him supposedly feel you are his "leader," it will do nothing to stop this behavior the next time you go out galloping. Now I know people who have nothing against stronger bits, they just slap one in, problem solved. They don't worry about a horse learning to override that bit, and they don't over analyze everything or read too many training books or forums. 

Since I'm an idealist and do read lots of things, I tried a few different things with Halla before giving up on a snaffle. I tried only walking and jogging her for six months to see if she could get over the idea that riding was exciting. I did a lot of ground driving and round pen work. We did lots of relaxed cantering in the arena. All of these were done at different times, with great patience, and only when I felt my mare was ready did we go back out on the trail and try cantering again. So far I've failed at getting the idea out of her head that she wants to run and go faster.

Although people are afraid horses will run through stronger bits, I think that must be something that happens only with beginning riders, since I haven't seen it happen. With a strong and confident rider, it's more likely the horse and rider will come to an agreement where the horse will listen as long as the incentive is strong enough. Then a partnership develops where it may take timing and that stronger bit to ride this particular horse, but they have the details worked out pretty well. This is often seen with some of the athletic and strong minded horses that are ridden to the top levels (such as Hickstead - I'm sure he was originally started in a snaffle, but I doubt he could have been retrained to go in a snaffle, he was "well trained" obviously, but bolted after many jumps). It is also seen with some recreational type horses that have been sold on a few times because people can't handle them, until they find the right person who can. 

I think many people who say their horse is always easy to handle and see a difficult to control horse as one with training issues are themselves quite selective about the horses they own, choosing ones bred for good temperament and without excess physical energy. Making blanket statements about all horses may cover most stock horse horses but won't apply to all Morgans, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, and other breeds known to be more reactive or excitable. Even many people who ride hot bloods don't take the horses out for gallops with other horses. I've known Arab trainers that never galloped their horses. How do they know the horse can do everything solidly in only a snaffle then? So I don't believe a person can say more training is the answer versus different tack or techniques until you've trained a few yourself. 

I've seen a huge difference in the way many Thoroughbreds, Arabs and other breeds respond to training versus some other breeds. Then people say they have had an Arab that went fine in a snaffle and was calm due to good training. No, the horse was calm due to innate temperament. I can find any number of Arabs around that can be started out perfectly with good training, and they will stay super hot and energetic throughout their lives. It's all about the mind. Amore is super excitable but does not ever try to dominate people or horses. She can be ridden bitless, because she isn't trying to go fast or run, she's just trying to be safe and survive. Halla tests everything: rider, tack, terrain, the other horses. She wants to win races, she wants to see everything and know everything. 

In a group of horses I currently go out with: a Thoroughbred, Canadian Warmblood, Arab, Quarter Horse and Connemara/Standardbred cross can all be controlled in a snaffle. My Arab and a friend's Anglo Arab both need stronger bits (Kimberwicke for Halla, the gelding goes in a gag). Amore gallops in a sidepull style bitless. The Appendix QH my friend used to have could only go out in a curb, which she worked down to after becoming more calm (after age 25). She originally could only go out in a two bit system with a snaffle and a curb.


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## gottatrot

One of my friends is out of town for a couple of weeks, and she asked if I could ride her horse, Nala a time or two while she is gone. "Ride your big, athletic, OTTB?" Obviously the answer is yes. 

Today I went out on Nala with another friend on her mare, Rebel, wearing my helmet camera. We originally had this Sony Action camera, and recently got a GoPro Hero for me to use as a helmet camera. Well...my husband loves the GoPro even more than the Sony, so it kept always being in use when I wanted to get it rigged onto my helmet. Finally last night he helped me get the Sony mounted on a helmet.

I'm a little behind the times, but my cell phone does not take video and this is probably the 4th video we've taken of horseback riding or our horses in the past 12 years. We have some video of us riding on trips, but not at home. 
So I'm a complete beginner at this, didn't realize the rain drops would be covering some of the picture, have no idea how to frame things yet, etc. You'll see our little ride, about a 3 minute synopsis, mostly of Rebel since my camera was on my head. 
https://youtu.be/bm3xQUJDrjk


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> I have developed a different perspective on training and horse behavior over the years. I could have shared this on another thread, but don't want to feel like I'm trying to argue or butt heads. It's not my goal to say "you might think you're experienced after so many years but you're wrong." Instead, I just want to present another perspective.
> 
> Training "holes" are always blamed for horses' behaviors, but horses are individuals. You can have thirty horses and train them all quite ideally so they are solid on all their cues in a snaffle, know how to use their bodies, etc. Then take them out into real challenging situations where they are using their minds and thinking and don't want to do what the rider thinks is best at the time.....
> 
> ....Making blanket statements about all horses may cover most stock horse horses but won't apply to all Morgans, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, and other breeds known to be more reactive or excitable. Even many people who ride hot bloods don't take the horses out for gallops with other horses. I've known Arab trainers that never galloped their horses. How do they know the horse can do everything solidly in only a snaffle then? So I don't believe a person can say more training is the answer versus different tack or techniques until you've trained a few yourself.


Great post, Gottatrot! I can't help agreeing that the possibility of a snaffle bit being the be-all and end-all for a well trained horse is very dependant on breed. And to a certain extent I think it is an American idea, that has evolved precisely because of the high percentage of stock horses around. However, I have never seen a QH in the flesh, much less ridden one, so I can't say give a personal opinion on this one.

I grew up riding in the UK where many recreational horses have TB blood. No-one ever talked about them having holes in their training because some of them went better in kimblewicks or pelhams. Often my BO used a snaffle for schooling on her horses, but if she was going hunting then a pelham or double bridle was the better choice. 

My horse when I was a teenager was one of these, she was TB crossed with New Forest Pony. A great horse with the calm and forgiving nature of the native breeds combined with the hot streak of TB which I loved. I did actually ride her in a snaffle, even for jumping and cross country, though had I known more about bits at that time we might have done better in a pelham. I vividly remember coming to grief on a cross country course because she was going so fast and so flat over the jumps that the most likely outcome was a refusal or a bad fall. Fortunately she was hot but not stupid, and abruptly refused when she realised that we weren't going to make it to the other side of the jump in one piece. If I had changed the snaffle for a pelham on that occasion I think I would have had a touch more control to get her together between the jumps, and we might have been able to finish the course. 

Holes in her training? In all likelihood, yes, she maybe had a few. I schooled her regularly on the flat and over jumps, but I can't say in retrospect how good my schooling was. But as I say, nobody I knew talked about holes in training or restarting horses. If a snaffle didn't do the job you tried something else. That's why different bits exist isn't it? To have something for every horse and every situation.

Nowadays I have one of my two bitless and the other in a Portuguese curb (mild and unjointed). Macarena is bitless for all the wrong reasons: I couldn't get her to accept a bit when I started her under saddle.  But I like how she goes bitless so I see no reason to change for the moment. 

I tried Flamenca in a snaffle when I got her, but she hated it and would brace against it and run through it. She would go inverted on me lol. I put the Portuguese curb on her and she was much happier and more responsive. 

She's a hot little number, despite her age, and after a fast canter she always takes much longer to calm down than Macarena. I don't know what she was like as a young horse, and I've no clear idea of how she was trained, but the curb is the best solution for the horse she is now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DragonflyAzul

You are such a descriptive writer! Subscribing to this thread so that I never miss a thing!


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> Macarena is bitless for all the wrong reasons: I couldn't get her to accept a bit when I started her under saddle.  But I like how she goes bitless so I see no reason to change for the moment.


It could be that is not a wrong reason for Macarena. Amore hated bits and still dislikes them, which is why I ride her bitless. You never know what it feels like inside their mouths. I know Amore has a very thick tongue, and did much worse with thicker bits when I was trying to be supposedly kinder. But she's also very sensitive so a thinner bit seems to feel sharp to her. I must have tried ten different bits with her before I found one she tolerated (which was a double-jointed D-ring snaffle). Sometimes I ride her in that, but most often we go out bitless because she prefers it.

An egg butt was too heavy and she dropped her head down between her knees (did I say sensitive?). She didn't like the taste of rubber, a mullen mouth made her keep her mouth open (on a loose rein). A loose ring snaffle rattled too much and scared her. A curb strap makes her panic. She doesn't like a single jointed snaffle either. Bosals don't have a fast enough release. Some people have the opinion that any horse should be able to go in a regular snaffle of their choosing. But Amore was _very_ opinionated. I've read that many good trainers only have a few bits they work all the horses with. But I saw the bit collection an Arab trainer had and she had dozens and dozens of different bits. Again, it might be a difference between more mellow minded stock horses and the hot bloods. I think finding the right bit for a sensitive horse can be tricky. 

While I was training Amore to accept a bit, I was also riding six other horses, all of which accepted my contact, and my riding instructor/trainer was always praising how light my hands were. I worked with Amore in side reins and on long lines to create the steadiest, most forgiving contact possible. She wouldn't accept contact. Over time I kept worrying this was my failure so had several good trainers work with Amore and also some well-trained riders. None of them were able to get Amore to accept bit contact. So I had to conclude it was Amore rather than a failure on my part. It sounds like you've also ridden challenging horses and done technical riding. So I doubt the issue is you, and more likely due to the opinions of your horse.

Who says we need a bit if a horse doesn't like one? Who says we need to ride on contact? When I was riding the OTTB yesterday, I found myself noticing how she would try to lean for a minute when she wanted to go faster, before giving to the bit. I kept releasing, not wanting her to lean and push into the pressure. Sometimes this would make her nose fly up as the pressure was released. I thought of her race training and wondered how much nicer she might go if she hadn't been taught to push into the bit, and why did I have to use half halts to make her understand I wanted her to slow down and back off the bit rather than lean. I thought she might appreciate having a curb bit that gave her a nice signal before being applied, and that she might respond more easily to it.


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking a lot about what bit to try with Valhalla. I watched Daniel Dauphin's videos on bitting (finally) and read through a couple threads relating to those videos. I always learn new things about bits, and there were several new points to think about.
As part of my reading, I found an entirely new bit I'd never heard of before:
Have you all heard of "Lifter" bits? It seems to work on a different principle than other bits I've seen.








All I've tried on Halla is a Pelham and Kimberwicke when it comes to curbs. The Pelham has such a straight sidepiece, and I read some things BSMS wrote about how a curved shank may help the bit balance in a horse that carries the head at 45 degrees. Plus I've ridden in Tom Thumbs before on horses that hated them, and I hated them, and the straight shank with the broken mouthpiece just makes me wonder if it would be as confusing to a horse as a Tom Thumb if I rode in the Pelham using it just as a curb. 

I agreed very much with Daniel when he said he hates Tom Thumbs and Mechanical Hackamores, I've ridden in both as well, noticed how poorly they signaled and how the horses disliked them, and plus met a horse with a caved in nose from the Mechanical. I understand his points about how the bit is only as poor as the rider using it. But I also have a fear of putting anything in a horse's mouth that will destroy the mouth if the horse gets loose and keeps stepping on the reins. That's my personal thing against Spade bits. 

I actually wanted to try a Billy Allen curb but couldn't find one in a 4 3/4" size. I debated going for a larger bit, but Daniel said with a curb it's very important the mouthpiece fits just right...but then he was also talking about curbs with ported mouthpieces...well, I couldn't decide. I ended up buying one of these:








It's a Myler 4 3/4" curb with a sweet iron mouthpice and copper inlays. I'm hoping it falls into the "transition" bit category. I really wanted independent side action, because you can't change your riding style overnight and my horses don't neck rein. I have not had use for neck reining, since the horses ride off my seat very well at slower speeds and I've never been on a horse personally that could neck rein with any accuracy at high speeds. So we direct rein. 

I plan to ride mostly two handed. I'd always believed that riding in a curb with two hands was treacherous, but there is a big difference between riding in a curb with fixed cheeks and mouthpiece versus one that has shanks that swivel independently. In the past, I've always ridden horses in curbs that were trained to neck rein, so I'd ride the way the horses were trained. I'd "sneak" two hands in when I felt it was more clear to the horse or when I wondered what to do with my other hand after riding mostly two handed for years. 

Well, the bit should come in a few days and we'll give it a try.


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## gottatrot

Today Halla and I began the "retraining" process of traveling on a loose rein without contact at the trot.

It was raining, steadily, and part of me didn't want to ride. The other part of me knows that this process is going to be months long, and I wanted to get started. The sooner we start, the sooner we'll get somewhere, eh?

We went to the outdoor arena, and I got on. Halla was not "with me" mentally, being tuned in to the surroundings, the rain, lots of things. I walked her around to warm up, and had her do some small circles, following the lightest touch on the rein and my seat to turn her head and follow it with her body. 
Now the real work began. I did my best not to get impatient or frustrated, at all. I know this is going to take a lot of hard work. 

First, I asked Halla to trot while keeping the reins loose, and waited for her to break gait into the canter, which she did after about three strides. My first thought was to take my reins up slowly, so she could learn the pre-cue that was going to mean "wrong answer, go back to trot." I was riding in my Kimberwicke, and had the chain loose so there would be lots of motion in the bit before the chain engaged. Well, I tried this about 20 times and Halla never bothered to break down into a trot until I had the chain fully engaged and gave a strong pull. My guess is she thought I was saying, "Trot, canter, now trot again." My impression was this was not teaching her at all to trot on a loose rein.

My next idea was that she needed to understand that cantering was wrong. Instead of a nice, slow uptake on the reins, I began to wait until she broke, and then I used my voice with a harsh, "trot," and then a second later gave a jerk on the rein. I am not one to jerk on reins, but I wasn't sure how else to communicate this concept. Halla seemed to understand now that this was a correction. Part of me cringed at this technique. The other part of me thought logically that she had a very smooth broken mouthpiece, that the chain probably wasn't even engaging with my jerk, that I don't have a very strong upper body, and she wasn't acting as if my correction was very harsh. Sometimes I had to repeat it. 

Along with this, whenever Halla sustained a trot for a little while on a loose rein, I praised her with my voice. 
This was a very tiring session, about a half hour of racing around an arena while constantly changing gaits. At the end, Halla seemed very relaxed and soft-eyed, not upset at all. Yikes. After all the work, we managed one loop around in each direction at the trot without breaking, on a loose rein. It seems something to build on, and I felt as though she was beginning to understand I had some point I was trying to get at. :wink:

In my mind, I was thinking of how training a dog might go. If I had a dog, and I took him out frequently for three years, and every time I threw a ball he ran, how long would it take me to teach him that when I threw a ball, I wanted him to trot by my side and not run? My Papillon might learn in three sessions. The Dalmatian I used to have might have taken two months to learn. I could imagine my old Dalmatian racing after the ball, getting corrected, racing after the ball, getting corrected. Over and over, like Halla. Arabians are more like Dalmatians than Papillons. Highly distractable, highly energetic. 

In reality I've trained this horse that whenever the reins are loose at the trot, she can canter. Just like throwing a ball for a dog means run. 

Here's what I've learned through trial and error:

When riding on contact you are actually teaching a horse to ignore pressure. When you train the horse that they must accept a constant pressure from the bit, no matter how light, you are saying, “This pressure you must ignore.” We are asking a horse to ignore pressure until it becomes greater pressure, at which point they must respond.

Now you are asking the horse to differentiate between some nebulous degree of lesser pressure versus a higher pressure. How much easier is it for the horse to understand “no pressure” versus “some pressure?” I believe this is why we have issues with horses that push through pressure. We ourselves are very, very poor at measuring pressure. If you ask a rider how many pounds of pressure they believe they are exerting on the reins on a given day, and then measure how many pounds they actually are exerting, it seldom matches. So many things will change the feeling, such as the balance of the horse, the balance of the rider, the speed of the horse, etc. It’s similar when people feeding horses are asked to estimate how many pounds of hay they are feeding. They will usually be off by a few pounds when you actually weigh the hay, and even people who think they have a good “feel” for the weight of hay will be quite off when checked for accuracy.

Yet we expect a horse to differentiate between our 1 lb of pressure versus 1.5 lbs of pressure on the reins. We want the horse to ignore 1 lb of pressure, to collect and push through 1.5 lbs of pressure, and to slow down at 2 lbs of pressure (random numbers to illustrate the point). Then we put other riders on the horse, with a different “feel” for pressure. So we basically apply whatever pressure works at the time. This is not training the horse to respond to the bit pressure, this is making the entire idea of bit pressure and what it actually means very fuzzy to the horse.
I am beginning to understand that riding a horse on contact teaches a horse how to push through contact. It teaches horses to learn what amount of contact they can tolerate.

When I started Halla, she had a beautiful gait and ran around with her neck high and nose out. So I taught her to move into my contact so she would give to the bit and "carry herself properly." Here's where I messed up. I should have not worried about her balance and instead focused on making sure she knew how to stay on a loose rein at the trot. As we progressed to more exciting work, she became used to contact at the trot to keep her speed rated where I wanted it. Now I want to get rid of riding on contact altogether, and it is going to be difficult to teach my horse how to do it.

Amore always hated contact. The moment I got rid of contact, she was like, "Cool." She has no desire to canter unless asked, and had no difficulty learning a steady trot on a loose rein. She knows how to hold a jog, a working trot, and an extended trot on a loose rein. She also has several speeds of walk and canter. Halla thinks contact is acceptable, and just waits for enough pressure to be applied to where she feels she should comply. She's learned that contact keeps her from galloping off, and she waits for it to be removed as a signal that it's OK for her to go faster.
Two very different horses. I made the same mistakes with both, but one has a temperament that makes the mistake more easily rectified.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> I am beginning to understand that riding a horse on contact teaches a horse how to push through contact. It teaches horses to learn what amount of contact they can tolerate.


I just love your journal, gottatrot! You always have some thought-provoking comment that makes me question my riding techniques in a positive manner. I agree with your conclusion on riding with contact. It seems logical to me, and effectively puts the lie to all the established ideas of "teaching a horse to accept the contact". 

In English riding, everyone accepts that if you use your leg constantly, the horse will become dull to your leg and unresponsive. So why should constant contact be seen as positive and even necessary, whereas constant leg is not? Might as well say "desensitizing your horse to contact" instead of "teaching your horse to accept contact". But that doesn't sound so good ;-)



gottatrot said:


> When I started Halla, she had a beautiful gait and ran around with her neck high and nose out. So I taught her to move into my contact so she would give to the bit and "carry herself properly."


Did Halla learn to give to the bit? And did her carriage change with you riding her with contact? Do you think you achieved anything positive through riding her like this?



gottatrot said:


> Here's where I messed up. I should have not worried about her balance and instead focused on making sure she knew how to stay on a loose rein at the trot. As we progressed to more exciting work, she became used to contact at the trot to keep her speed rated where I wanted it. Now I want to get rid of riding on contact altogether, and it is going to be difficult to teach my horse how to do it.


Half the battle is being aware of the problem. It sounds as if you have made good progress in one session. Though of course the proof of the pudding will be when you can take her out onto the beach and trot her on a loose rein. That beach would make anyone want to go fast! (Just a touch envious of your beautiful surroundings for riding). 

I am in a similar situation with Macarena. And curiously, the other day I started working on trot on a loose rein with her. But I hadn't thought it all out as clearly as you have, which is why I've appreciated this post so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> In English riding, everyone accepts that if you use your leg constantly, the horse will become dull to your leg and unresponsive. So why should constant contact be seen as positive and even necessary, whereas constant leg is not? Might as well say "desensitizing your horse to contact" instead of "teaching your horse to accept contact". But that doesn't sound so good ;-)
> 
> Did Halla learn to give to the bit? And did her carriage change with you riding her with contact? Do you think you achieved anything positive through riding her like this?


Right, that's a good point about the leg contact. Horses supposedly won't become dull to constant bit contact but will become dull to constant leg contact? That makes no sense.

I would say yes, Halla did learn to "give" to the bit, in that she would position her head where I asked her to. When I wanted her to move with her neck arched over and nose tucked in, I could get her to do it. She didn't seem to have issues with having a constant contact and wouldn't try to avoid it. Impulsion? This horse was always driving forward off the hind end, and that's never something we had to address. Some horses have self-collection, and some horses have self impulsion. 

After what I've learned lately and after our long discussion on another thread about an inverted versus rounded back, I'd say no, I didn't achieve anything positive by riding Halla on contact. Obviously, I didn't always ride her on contact on the trail, but taught her how to collect and extend in an arena, and the basics of lateral movement. Then we went out on the trail, and while I insisted that she walk on a loose rein and relax, (which she still does very well), if she got "rushy" at the trot I'd use a steady contact with half halts to control her pace. She got very used to having me keep a light tension on the reins at the trot and canter, and got used to me using half halts to slow down or collect up. 

Things seemed to go fairly well most of the time, until a couple years ago when Halla had a couple of things go wrong at once: ulcers, vitamin E deficiency. At that time her mental state changed from being a hot, energetic horse to being a frantic horse in survival mode. That was when I would take her for a ten minute walk and came back with her dripping sweat off every part of her body. That was when she galloped away on the beach and it was like she had gone mad since I had no ability to connect with her mentally through bit or reins. It took her so long to come down from that and feel better, and so long for me to figure out all of the issues. When she looked well and moved well I rode her. 

It was after this time that she began to never back off the reins at the trot and to require more strength to slow and stop her. Maybe because I had always ridden her with some contact, I didn't notice as the pressure required gradually became stronger. I feel because I was still riding her when she was weak in the hind end (but recovered enough to ride, so I was trying to help strengthen her), she probably was leaning a bit more for balance. But this taught her, as a forward, energetic horse, that she could tolerate more pressure.

I just feel that all of this could have been avoided if she always had been worked on a loose rein. If she wasn't leaning as she regained her strength, I would have made her use her own body, and perhaps even known more about her limitations since I wouldn't have been "helping" her balance.


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## bsms

Leg contact and bit contact: It is pretty well accepted that if your horse doesn't move forward at a leg squeeze, you need to up the pressure until you find a level that the horse WILL move off, and then start training the horse to move off less pressure. A lesson horse I rode a few times would not go faster than a walk unless the rider had a crop. THEN, if the rider proved he would use it hard one time, the horse would trot or canter at a light cue.

That obviously is a "hole" in training, created by bad riding. But many riders accept carrying a whip or crop, but get the vapors if someone uses something other than a snaffle. Why is teaching "GO" different than teaching "STOP"?

And why is it bad to nag with your leg, or deaden a horse to leg aids, but good to nag with a bit? I read thru a book by Philippe Karl yesterday, Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage: A Search for a Classical Alternative. I disagreed with some of what I read. He relied on 100 year old measurements of 'balance' rather than modern ones of a horse in motion, and he tended to pick quotes of "masters" that agreed with him like some folks quote the Bible. But one of those "masters", for example, said that if a horse let its tongue hang out, you should remove the offending part of the tongue with a red hot chisel.

However, he also made some good points. A fellow photographed horses from above to see how they really move when doing a circle versus how the rider felt they were moving. And he mentions a test done about 10 years ago, where a dressage rider and reiner stopped their horses from a canter while rein pressure was measured. The reiner used about 5 lbs of pressure on a snaffle. The dressage rider used about 20-25 lbs of pressure.

That might not be significant. Reiners can be pretty rough teaching the stop. Bandit, after all, came here stopping on a dime BEFORE I had full contact. Bits to him meant an emergency brake, and he'd slam on them before I could get all the slack out of the reins. But 20 lbs vs 5 lbs might be significant too. It makes sense that the more pressure the horse gets used to in the mouth, the more that will be needed.

A western trainer of competitive reiners and cutters says the horse's mouth always gets less sensitive with time, and thus he "freshens" the horse's mouth at times by switching to a thin wire snaffle. Yet Mia became more sensitive with time, and Bandit is gaining the right sort of sensitivity - while using a Billy Allen snaffle (which is essentially a mullen snaffle). It seems to me that if one's horse is losing sensitivity, the rider is more likely the problem than the bit - but a good choice of bits could help deal with a problem that exists. I'm convinced Mia was never going to get better while riding in a snaffle. It took a curb to teach her what she needed to know in order to be ridden well in a snaffle - just as a crop or whip can be used to teach the horse sensitivity to the leg!

And some horses are just competitive, or naturally less inclined to submit to their rider. We breed Border Collies to herd, and some horses to compete and WANT to go fast, and then we say none of that matters in training a horse or dog? *Ever try teaching a Border Collie to NOT herd?** Good luck!* A truly hot horse may view speed like a Border Collie views herding - a life imperative! We can't assume all horses start with the same view of life. Yet we are often told one set of tools or one approach to training works for every horse...:icon_rolleyes:

Bandit, BTW, may be a fairly calm horse who is competitive. He doesn't get excited about going fast unless another horse is beside him. Then he'll fight me so he can win. That may be something I'll just have to learn to live with, just as I had to learn to live with a Border Collie who would try to herd butterflies (which was quite a sight to see!)

Looks like a really nice Myler bit. I was hoping to start work today on Bandit learning about curbs, but last night I found out my day off today was turning into a work day to cover another person who can't be in...so I might end up waiting until this temporary job ends in a month and work on it when I can do things daily, or at least 3-4 times a week instead of once a week!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> A lesson horse I rode a few times would not go faster than a walk unless the rider had a crop. THEN, if the rider proved he would use it hard one time, the horse would trot or canter at a light cue.
> That obviously is a "hole" in training, created by bad riding. But many riders accept carrying a whip or crop, but get the vapors if someone uses something other than a snaffle. *Why is teaching "GO" different than teaching "STOP"?*


I really like that thought.
And you might consider that lesson horse very smart, rather than poorly trained. The horse was seeing what he could get away with, and why work hard for someone who isn't going to make him?


bsms said:


> ...And he mentions a test done about 10 years ago, where a dressage rider and reiner stopped their horses from a canter while rein pressure was measured. The reiner used about 5 lbs of pressure on a snaffle. The dressage rider used about 20-25 lbs of pressure.


Very interesting. I was googling through looking for images of dressage riders riding on a loose rein at the trot. They are difficult to find. A couple links I found discussed rewarding the horse and "checking" his ability to go on a loose rein at the trot by throwing one rein forward, but not both. Everyone talks about walking on a loose rein, the free walk and all that. But this emphasis makes me feel better about having missed such a key thing.


bsms said:


> That might not be significant. Reiners can be pretty rough teaching the stop. Bandit, after all, came here stopping on a dime BEFORE I had full contact. Bits to him meant an emergency brake, and he'd slam on them before I could get all the slack out of the reins.


I've been on several horses trained this way. Some people are proud their horses can stop so suddenly. I find it highly impractical. The one poor horse was so highly strung we had to do a lot of retraining. You'd get on him and any shift in your weight or reins or legs had him flying in one direction or another. A slightly lean forward and he'd run backwards a few steps. Touch him with a leg and he'd spin to the side. I believe the measures used to teach him this were harsh, because he was tense, frightened, and tried to figure out what you might be asking before you asked it. After a while I'd still call him a very light horse, but he'd wait until you gave him a definite cue, and he still did whatever you wanted even if you didn't punish him. 

When I started riding Halla and she was insecure and spooky on the trails, she had the best stop of any horse I've ridden. She could stop instantly from any gait. I've been on reiners that can do a fast stop, but they usually walk a bit with their front end so you don't just stop on an exact spot. Halla would just stop dead. But she'd also lean back like she was going to sit down. Once she stopped so fast from a walk that her ear went inside my nose and I was still sitting in the saddle. We'd be cantering along and something would startle her and all her motion would come backwards at me, and I'd be pushing on her mane with my hands to keep from slamming into her neck. So I don't necessarily appreciate a great stop. I've had a couple western people ride my horses and become insecure because when they asked for a stop it took several strides. I really want my horses' bodies to last a long time and so I do gradual stops rather than slam on the brakes. I let them slow their bodies down and then move into the stop instead of stopping with a hard jam on the front end. 


bsms said:


> A western trainer of competitive reiners and cutters says the horse's mouth always gets less sensitive with time, and thus he "freshens" the horse's mouth at times by switching to a thin wire snaffle...
> 
> And some horses are just competitive, or naturally less inclined to submit to their rider. We breed Border Collies to herd, and some horses to compete and WANT to go fast, and then we say none of that matters in training a horse or dog? *Ever try teaching a Border Collie to NOT herd?** Good luck!* A truly hot horse may view speed like a Border Collie views herding - a life imperative! We can't assume all horses start with the same view of life. Yet we are often told one set of tools or one approach to training works for every horse...:icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Bandit, BTW, may be a fairly calm horse who is competitive. He doesn't get excited about going fast unless another horse is beside him. Then he'll fight me so he can win. That may be something I'll just have to learn to live with, just as I had to learn to live with a Border Collie who would try to herd butterflies (which was quite a sight to see!)


I haven't found horses' mouths to change over time. I believe it's their minds that change. Some horses are very stable and reliable mentally and you can just ride them in the same bit or no bit for years and years. I've also seen horses that do much better when you find the right bit for them. 
The competitiveness of horses is an interesting subject. My friend has a very excitable horse but she's not very competitive. She'll lope behind horses or in front of them, and unless they're eye to eye with her she'll never compete. When they're eye to eye she'll race ahead, but as soon as she's in front or behind she loses interest. 
Some horses just want to keep up, like Amore. She'll fight to stay with the other horse or horses, but she's not competitive she wants to stay alive by staying with the herd. So if she's with a fast thoroughbred, she'll be killing herself galloping her legs off trying to stay up with the horse. But the second they slow she's like, "Whew!"
Nala the Thoroughbred competes with the other horses but not with Halla, since Halla is her boss. Halla is one that believes she should be in control. If she is behind, she needs to catch up. If she's next to a horse, she needs to win. If she's in front, she wants to stay there. But she also will run just as fast when all alone, so I believe it is an inner drive, as you say, like what is bred into a Border Collie.


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## DragonflyAzul

This conversation has me completely fascinated ilu all <3

I agree with you so much about there not really being a point to hard stops and hair trigger reactions, my brothers first horse would slam the breaks from a hard gallop and while it was sorta impressive I felt bad for her, cuz? I'm a runner, and I don't weigh as much as a horse but I know slamming hard on my breaks is unpleasant. I wouldn't do that to any animal of mine, call me emotional I guess. 

I also think it's true that horses change their minds and like the idea of bits or other tools changing the way they react. I had a puppy once that only wore a collar when I leashed her up the first few times, then once I put on the collar without the leash and she walked as if she were anyway, and that's all it ever takes for her to stay at my side now.


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## gottatrot

I was thinking, it probably sounds a bit implausible or boastful that I often say, "I've ridden this breed," or "I've been on that kind of horse." 
I probably should explain.

As noted, I've had a horse obsessed life. Over the years I've perfected techniques to get people to let me ride their horses. It hasn't been a conscious decision, honestly, it's been so natural that I have never felt devious or underhanded about it. It's more like a deep-seated need I have. I want to ride ALL the horses. 

We moved around a bit in the past 15 years. At every boarding stable I went to, somehow I would end up riding many if not most of the horses there. Sometimes it would be related to me just hanging on an arena fence and watching someone ride. They'd be having some problem, sometimes getting really frustrated. I'd watch with undivided attention for a very long time, then wonder aloud, "Do you think he'd respond to this or that..." 
Next thing you know they'd be asking me, "Would you want to try it?" 

Or I'd have questions..."I've ridden a Paso...does a Tennessee Walker gait feel the same?" And once I was on, I'd always exclaim about the horse and what a lovely horse they were, and you know horse people take flattery toward their own horses and eat it up. So next thing you know, they'd offer to let me take the horse out on a ride if I ever wanted to, or they'd be tired of riding and ask me if I wanted to take the horse around for another half hour for exercise before putting him away. 

I guess I am a devious person, because by hook or crook somehow I'd have permission to ride most of the horses I was around. There was always an excuse for me. I'd say I'd never been on such a big Arab before, or that I'd grown up admiring Morgans and always wished I could ride one. I'd say a bay Paint was certainly the prettiest color of Paint there was, or wonder if someone could explain to me the correct way to hold a pair of double reins (while going around the arena a few laps). Sometimes I'd comment that a horse's trot looked very smooth or that he appeared very light. We'd talk about horses, and inevitably a question would come up. A favorite phrase, "Well, I'd have to _*feel*_ it for myself to say for sure..." Another ticket.

Perhaps it is my unfeigned childish wonder about horses that makes people willing to share theirs with me. Sometimes I think it helps to have horses that people see me riding and they don't think they could ride themselves. 
Regardless, I weasel my way onto horse after horse. 

If someone gets bucked off and loses their confidence, I offer to evaluate the horse's mood the next time and warm him up a little. If someone goes on a trip and needs their horse exercised, I'll take them out a time or two. If someone is gifted a horse and is unsure of the training level, I'll pop on and check her out. Someone's horse will need a hoof trim and the owner will lament about no trimmer being available. Want a free trim? I'll trade you for a ride on your horse. 

My cousin may have been the one who taught me early that riding many different horses was good for a rider. At one point she had eleven different horses, and I rode them all. The place I boarded a few years ago had twelve different horses and we swapped rides on all of them. The place I boarded after that had seventeen horses and I rode all of them except for four (two were not under saddle yet, two were owned by types who "have a special bond" by being the only people allowed to ride the horse). 

I'm like a predator, waiting to take advantage of a weak moment. One young horse a couple years ago was being led out of the field for a ride and she reared up several times. The owner was shaken, "She's never done this before." I could see the hesitation in her eyes, an insecurity about riding the horse in this mood. I pounced. "If you'd like to take her out with your other mare, you know, so she could feed off that steady older horse...I'd be happy to follow on the young one." That was a lovely ride.

Or I'll see a middle-aged woman with the young Arab she bought on a whim, and notice how the horse's energy loose in the arena makes her nervous. I'll offer to go for a few rides, just to remind the horse of the thirty days she originally had that was done a year ago because the owner keeps trying to get up the nerve to get on the young thing. It's never about the rider's weakness, I don't bring anything like that up. It's about the horse, how it's natural for them to be a little rusty, and how I'd feel the same hesitation if I wasn't in good riding shape right now...etc.

The thing is, I legitimately find such good qualities in every horse I ride. If the gait isn't perfect, the horse will be very responsive. The horse will have a quiet feel I like, or an energy that radiates up through the saddle. He'll be bold about the task at hand, or she'll listen to every nuance of my seat. In my years of riding, I've had perhaps two horses I didn't love to ride, just a couple that I didn't say, "What a great horse!" and "I'd love to have him myself if you ever got tired of him." Awhile ago I wrote down the names of horses I remembered riding, and came up with about 90. The thing was, I could remember something distinctive about each one that made them interesting to ride. Each one teaches me something. Some teach me many things. Some I ride once or twice, some I spend months or years riding.

The one I didn't care to ride was a Paint horse named Maggie. There was something about her, difficult to pinpoint. It was like I was driving a car, but one with a tricky stick shift. Purely a mechanical relationship, and yet not an easy one to get through the gears. I don't mind a difficult horse, but somehow there needs to be a feeling of a personality, a "someone" I am working with. There are no one way streets in riding. A panicked horse I can understand, but not one so unreachably distant yet calm.

When I read journals on the forum and "meet" the horses, it makes me want to ride all your horses too. Better be aware of how sneaky I am before you let me around your horses.


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## DragonflyAzul

I'm so jealous, I may just adopt your ways.. I'm a little bit like that already and have had people ask me to take their horse for a spin, but I haven't near the horse count that you've got! I do love riding different horses and may already be addicted to it.


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## gottatrot

And my point with the previous post is not, "Wow, I must know something about horses because I've ridden a few by now." The point is, "Check it out, after many experiences I'm still struggling to figure out how to communicate with horses." 
The most important factor is our willingness to learn, to listen to the horses, to be open to the thought that our ideas might be wrong. I could ride fifty horses the exact same way and learn nothing. I could try to fit every horse into my box of understanding. Instead, I want to be flexible and keep learning and changing and to hopefully be a better horseman at the end of my journey. 

Now I have to publicly apologize to my horse, Valhalla. Not wanting to give myself any reason for impatience, I said it may take her months to understand I want her to trot on a loose rein. Halla is a very smart horse. Today I went out for another training session and discovered she had figured out what I was asking her to do. Some people say horses sit in their free time and think about what we were teaching them earlier that day. I doubt that, but it's a funny thought. 

Regardless, when I took Halla out she was serious, and her expression was like, "Let's do this." The Myler bit arrived yesterday, so I put it on her bridle. Something I just learned this week is that some horses have a longer jawline which makes it so curb chains don't sit properly. I'd always noticed chains sit farther back on Halla, regardless of the bit, and I just thought there was nothing I could do about that so I hoped it didn't bother her. As some may know, those bones underneath the chin are narrow and sensitive. Keeping this in mind, I put the chain in a non-traditional spot. I put it inside and above the cheek piece of the bridle. This made it fall into the chin groove when I pulled back on the shank of the bit. 

The bit has a lot of motion. The cheekpieces rotate when you pull on the reins. As I led Halla out to the arena, the chain jangled, the cheekpieces moved when I moved the reins, and I have rattling clips on the end of the reins since I frequently change reins to different bridles. Amore would have probably been in a panic over all the commotion. Halla loved it. She jutted her chin out and strutted, giving me a look like she was in a parade and I'd put a bunch of fancy bangles all over her. 

Just before I got on, I had a moment of insecurity. I've ridden in curb bits many times, but I've never been on Halla with a long shanked bit and no snaffle rein for back up. What always helps me is to think of the worst case scenario. Worst case I could think of was that Halla would spook and bolt toward the end of the arena. My fear revolved around what I would do if I felt the need to pull back hard on the reins, and the fact that I didn't want to use all that leverage on her, with her unused to a curb. It seemed unfair. So I thought I could just let her run into the fence, and stay light on the reins. As odd as it may seem, that immediately relaxed me and I got on. 

Well, to my surprise we trotted around and around that arena. Halla only broke into a canter twice. First, she showed me that she understood I wanted her to trot on a loose rein. Of course I praised her to the skies, and kept rewarding her with a relaxed walk. Next, she tried to make sure that's what I wanted, by breaking into a canter. I took up the reins very slowly, and before the chain even engaged she went back to the trot. After a few seconds she went back to the canter and I just said "trot" and didn't engage the reins, and she complied. That seemed to satisfy her, that she did understand what I wanted, and then she trotted around and around some more. 

All of this gave me some new insights. First, I'm realizing that a kimberwicke is not a good bit. Basically you're using a curb, but one with no real ability to signal built in. My thought was that I was being more kind by using a bit with less leverage. Yet I was being less kind, because the bit didn't work the way I thought it did. Another insight was that I've thought it was important to buy nice saddles but meanwhile I've gone cheaply on bits. This Myler bit was expensive, but I could tell immediately Halla was holding it on her tongue and that it was balancing nicely in her mouth. 

What I learned was that Halla wants to be light. She's just had no opportunity because we had this barrier in communication caused by contact and the wrong bit. Somehow she has no ability to be light in a snaffle. It just does not give her enough signal or opportunity. She needs a curb, but a kimberwicke is not clear and does not give warning like a proper curb, anymore than a Tom Thumb does. 

I didn't have to think about how my pressure in the curb related to the pressure I used in the kimberwicke. As I took up the reins slowly, Halla responded before I even got all the way to the point of the shank rotating and the chain beginning to engage. So I was just moving the rein on one side, and she was turning in that direction. I was just moving the rein, and she was slowing down. We never even got past barely engaging the curb, so my concerns about the pressure became irrelevent. 

We both hate going around an arena, and I feel confident I can use this tool lightly and do some training out in the fields. My inclination is to feel confident and head on out to the beach, but I'll force myself to give us some time to become more educated. 

*The right tools are very, very important.* I've tried many times to bring this horse back into an arena, to get her responding lightly in a snaffle. I've never been able to get her trotting lightly around on a loose rein. Holes in the training? No. A horse can't just immediately become light in the bridle without training. This horse had all the training, but without the right tools and techniques we had a gap in communication. She's been trying to get the "right answer" all along, but all I've been able to do is add pressure, and she is a forgiving horse and just keeps trying to work with me.


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## DragonflyAzul

brava!


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## bsms

"_We never even got past barely engaging the curb, so my concerns about the pressure became irrelevant_."

That was pretty much my experience as well. Not 100% - when Mia dragged her leg thru a cactus and filled it with spines, it took 3 pretty hard bumps to keep her from going cross country thru the desert (and even more cactus). But if a person doesn't yank on the reins, then the HORSE chooses the pressure. And if the pressure is intermittant at the most, then the horse doesn't have anything to brace against.

A few days ago, I re-read a book VS Littauer wrote in the 30s. He later changed some of his views. But he said that if you keep a constant pressure against the bars, the feeling dulls and a horse can quickly "find relief" by trying to force that constant pull. If you use intermittent pressure, the bars don't become desensitized.

I have no idea if that is true. I do know that both Mia (past) and Bandit (present) sometimes want to brace against my hands. If I refuse to give them anything steady to brace against, they give it up. Speaking only for myself, that is why I'll ask a horse to adjust speed with pulses instead of pulls. With a curb, I can usually rotate my wrist (using one hand) repeatedly and that is enough.

Bandit is still in a snaffle. I want to have consistent riding time before moving him to a curb. I'll be curious to see if he likes it the way Mia did. He usually listens well in a snaffle, but I like the action of a curb. If he does not, that will be OK. I'd also like to try him this summer in a leather sidepull. I think he could get to where he'd move well in one.


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## gottatrot

My three good horse friends live in a town we moved away from about five years ago. It's a two hour drive, and we don't get together for horse rides often enough. Several weeks ago we planned that I'd come down for a ride, so my husband and I drove down yesterday. Unfortunately, throughout the early morning the weather report changed drastically as two serious weather systems merged together. By the time I met up with my friends, it was quite stormy. 

It was a good time to talk and catch up anyway, and we hung out in their two barns with the 5 full size horses and the 4 minis. My 7 lb dog bossed around their 25 and 55 lb dogs, we groomed through the mini manes and tails (quite a chore), etc. We would have trailered the horses to the large indoor arena at the fairgrounds, but the weather was beyond even that. 

As we drove home the winds were really picking up and we had to drive around some downed trees. Around that time on a similar highway nearby, a tree actually fell on a car and killed a man. After we got home, the storm got worse and became the worst we've had this year. Several gusts hit 100 mph and one of the trees in our yard lost a large limb, which thankfully didn't hit our house.

As often happens, the storm blew all the bad weather through quickly and today was clear and warm. The horses basked in the sunshine and I was able to ride Halla in the late afternoon. 

We had a very different ride in the curb bit today, and now I am unsure about how it is going to work for us. It was a confusing time. 
Halla was not as calm today, which can be a regular thing for her. It was as if she became more insecure having a loose rein in her state of mind. I'm aware that sometimes the rider's contact can be used as a sort of crutch by the horse, and I'm not sure if that is a good thing, bad thing or indifferent. 

My latest question is about how well a bit with lots of signal will work when a horse is reacting quickly and changing their mind. I'm not sure how to school through this with a horse. What happened is that Halla was quite "up" and I kept trying to give her time to react to slow signals so I didn't use all the leverage of the bit. Well, she can go from an excitement level of 2 to 4 to 6 quite quickly, and I just wasn't able to keep up with the signals. It might be that I am not able to use my hands well enough. 
By the time we hit a "6" and she was getting very forward at the trot and I tried to use mainly my seat and a light rein to guide her into smaller circles, she just took off, leaping into a fast canter. So I gradually pulled back on the reins in a light half halt, and by the time the chain engaged she was reactive and threw her head up and jerked to a lower gait. It was not pretty. 

This is also what I ran into with the Pelham, and I have been attributing it to having a less clear signal. That's what I was hoping, anyway.
What I don't understand is this: I've read an opinion about why some horses get claustrophobic in Pelhams and other curbs. The writer said that it's because the rider doesn't understand how much more leverage there is in a curb, and therefore applies too much pressure and the horse reacts.

How can this be? I am not even applying 1/3 of the pressure that my mare accepts with a Kimberwicke, poor signal and all. Even if I'm poor at estimating how much pressure I'm giving with my hands, this is a very light contact. So why is it bothering my horse so much if I apply that with a bit that has a lot of warning, she knows it is going to happen, and it probably doesn't even reach the pressure she often ignores? 

We had nothing very good going on, so I brought Halla back to the barn, put her Kimberwicke on and went back out. Immediately she was calm, responsive, and gave me a nice trot around the arena. So I'm confused, as I said. She was barging through and breaking out of her trot before I put her in the curb. One ride in the curb that is just lovely, then a second one that is terrible, and then I put the kimberwicke back in and she behaves as though it's her usual thing to stay in a nice trot and be calm and responsive. 
So now I'm wondering...should I switch her into the curb for a schooling session when she barges through the kimberwicke and then go back? How much of this is her state of mind versus the bit? I am thinking now about switching between schooling sessions in the curb in the arena when her mood is right, and still riding out in the kimberwicke to see if that seems to make things worse or better overall.

My friend with her very hot horse did not let the horse gallop for the entire year last year. She says her horse will stay in a nice trot for an entire ride, but if she lets her canter it's all over. Then it's a battle trying to get her to stay in a trot. 
These horses are always challenging us...I am interested in the challenge, and although I'd love to sort everything out with my horse I'm pretty sure she'll never be easy or calm.


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## bsms

When I switched Mia, I spent much of our first session on the ground next to her. I'd pull both reins back lightly, and wait for a little give to her head, then release. Then we tried riding, although I was in a small arena and we kept it at a walk. She was already very used to a leading rein, so most of our turning came from that.

There were a few times during our first three arena rides where she would raise her head. That is the sort of thing that works as a bit evasion in a snaffle - the stretched out head position slides the bit to the rear and the pressure goes against the teeth. The curb can maintain pressure against the bars, but the rider needs to keep the pull going until the head starts to lower.

It is a learning thing - what results in the release? The only right answer when both reins are pulled back is bringing the nose down/back. That needs to be taught before mounting, IMHO.

"_The writer said that it's because the rider doesn't understand how much more leverage there is in a curb, and therefore applies too much pressure and the horse reacts._"

I don't see any reason to worry about pressure using the curb - the horse chooses how much pressure is applied before the horse yields to the cue. But of course, it is important the horse knows what the rider wants from a given cue, and they may not know that without being taught. So we started from the ground, then at a walk. When stops were good from a walk, we started trying from a trot. When stops were good from a trot, we tried a canter (with a goal of slowing to a trot, not a full stop). When she was consistent with that, we left the arena. Pulsing worked better for me than steady pulls, though.

FWIW, I also like using one hand for slow/stop cues. I find it easier to give even pressure on both sides that way. I also like a wide leather curb strap versus a curb chain:










Bandit got his first ride in that bit a couple of days ago, but I had the reins hooked to the mouthpiece so it was essentially a snaffle. I just wanted him to get used to the feel of shanks next to his face. I don't know when I'll get the time for a training session on curbs...​


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## gottatrot

BSMS, good advice, thank you. Obviously I was rushing things, and I've made a "lesson plan" now so I can begin schooling in the curb. Not sure why I thought I could skip right on up to the trot. Well, yes I do. I wish as everyone does that you can just throw on something new and then head out to gallop on the beach. That's living in a fantasy world.

I've started some horses in snaffles and they have to be solid at the walk and especially with turning before going any faster. I need to spend some time walking and stopping and turning. Circles, serpentines, reverse. For some reason I didn't think it was important to stop with one hand on the reins, but I believe it would be clearer to the horse, and especially as a teaching aid until everything is solid. I'll be sure to do that.

The weather was nice today so we skipped out on bit lessons and went to the beach (in the kimberwicke). 
Does anyone have any good advice on how to keep a horse's head pointed in the direction they are traveling? If you skip through my video from today, even on fast forward you will notice that Halla's head points everywhere except where we are going. My friend took Nala the Thoroughbred out with us, and Halla keeps an eye on her as well as everything else on the planet by turning her head every which way. 
We travel generally in one direction, and sometimes you'll see a hoof pop into view and it's pointing where we're going, but the head? Very rarely.
Halla is special, I've never struggled with this on other horses. Amore likes to glance around but if she's going fast she looks ahead to where she's going. 
https://youtu.be/-GgUO6a0m98


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## gottatrot

*



Rules are not made for geniuses. The trouble is that the artistic part of riding does not allow itself to be analyzed or imitated; it is the property of an individual.

Click to expand...

*Copied this from BSMS's longer quote from Littauer.

I find discussion extremely important as a growing process.

Today I've been contemplating the art of horsemanship. There is this very tricky balance between a few different things. There is a balance between humility and knowing your own abilities and limitations, vs. holding yourself back by doubting yourself. There is a balance between making allowance for the horse's weaknesses, and allowing the horse to get away with evasions. There is a balance between being kind and gentle with the horse vs. letting the horse take advantage of you. All of these things are more art than science. 

Sometimes it is very small things that can make a difference. 

I've been reading about why horses might want to run with their neck and head turned to one side. While I know it is an evasion, it's puzzled me what the horse is evading if the horse is continuing to do what is asked, i.e. move forward. I've been trying to get down to the root cause of the problem.

Obviously, this problem is one I caused, based on a solution to another issue. From the beginning, Halla came to me knowing some evasions. She knew how to evade a snaffle by stretching her neck down so far the rider had no leverage to signal well. Early on I discovered that she was less able to evade if I bent her slightly in one direction. So if she started to evade the bit, I'd put a slight bend through her body to the right or left, which would make it more difficult for her to line up her legs, would cause her to change leads or be less balanced, and in general slow her a bit which would in turn cause her to give up on the evasion. 

When I put Halla in the Kimberwicke, the chain helped because it lifted her head. So if she got really excited and decided to push through the bit, I'd use an intermittent cue on one rein to lift her head up and that would stop her from leaning down through the bit. 
So for several years we went along pretty well. Halla would go nicely most of the time. On occasion she'd get strong, and I'd lift her head up. If she got really excited, I'd have to use the lateral bending through her body back and forth to get her to listen. 

All this time I was riding her in a treed saddle, which due to her asymmetrical shoulder muscling created a confusion the rider had to compensate for. I learned how to use my seat bones and balance a little unequally so it felt equal to her. It was tricky since I rode many other horses, so I'd have to make sure only to use this method on my crooked horse. But I'd put my friends on Halla and they'd be unable to straighten her out or control her bend, so it seemed we had worked out a system. 

All of that was fine, until about a year ago when Halla ended up with physical issues. The physical affected her mental stability quite a bit, and she became quite upset very often. Which meant it wasn't safe for her to go too fast, being both unbalanced and uncoordinated, as well as mentally unable to focus. Sometimes she was really not safe to ride, but I kept trying to work it out. Twice she totally lost it and bolted, unable to think at all except for "fight or flight." So I kept her down to a canter for safety, and if she ramped up we'd stop. 
In order to control her speed, I found myself using that last resort lateral bending more and more, and when she got hysterical she sometimes ran right through the bend. 

At that point we backed off and I found the fix for the physical issues, which made the mental issues gradually resolve. So now I have a strong, sound horse. I know she can to straight, can follow her nose with her body, and she knows how to both bend and go straight (tested and worked on these on the lunge). We have made some progress, because literally for several months as muscles and nerves were healing Halla would take a very long time going down the beach, because I could not get her to get straight at all. She'd be frothing, working super hard but heading sideways rapidly and I'd have to turn her and stop her and try again. 

But now I'm trying to figure out how to teach her that I want her to keep her head directly in front of her direction of travel, without holding and forcing it there. I'm thinking small steps, using a cue and release method of bumping the rein until she moves her head where I want it, then repeating that until she holds it there for longer periods of time. 

Speaking of small things, when I was reading about the horse holding the neck sideways as an evasion, I realized it was possible Halla was evading the chain of the kimberwicke. When I try to cue/release the right rein, for instance, to ask her to move her head to the right, that actually engages the chain on the right side of her chin. 

BSMS said he uses a curb strap instead of a chain. I've read over and over again that "the pressure from a strap instead of a chain is no different. Horses perceive them the same." OK? What if that is wrong advice? So tonight I swapped out the chain on the curb and put a leather strap on. In Halla's stall I put her bridle on and cued her to turn to one side, the other side, stop, back up. When I put my finger between the strap and her chin there was no bite, only smooth pressure. Seemed more comfortable and less like something to evade. She followed the bit signals very easily and seemed like things were clear to her. I've been insecure about the pressure of the curb, but with a leather strap it may give me the confidence to just use the bit and not over think it. It seemed very comfortable to me. 
We'll hopefully try it out soon at the walk, trying not to rush things.


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## gottatrot

Great video of excellent horse people having all kinds of trouble with their horses. We all have those days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phx7_74ym5k


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## gottatrot

As someone who was caught up in the dream of dressage for a few years, I believed a few things, including:

1) Dressage is the foundation for all riding disciplines
2) Dressage is the ultimate in subtle communication with a horse
3) Dressage teaches a deep, secure seat
4) Horses that learn to lift and round their back and move off the hind end will carry a rider more efficiently, resulting in less chance of injury and a longer usable life.
5) Dressage teaches horses how to use their bodies better than other disciplines.

Then I went through a disillusionment phase which included:
1)Discovering that rather than being subtle, dressage requires almost constant cueing which some horses really dislike. It takes a certain temperament of horse to tolerate dressage training.
2) Discovering that the seat I learned in dressage was insecure.
3) Learning that my horses’ backs, tendons and muscles were not strengthened appreciably by dressage movements, but that a strong back was created by using well fitting saddles and riding up and down hills and over varying terrain with a good rider.
4) Realizing that dressage and the term "collection" claimed ownership over things like body control and lateral movement that were common to all good riding rather than a single discipline.
5) Seeing firsthand the force used to train horses to be successful at the highest levels.
6) Learning that almost constant bit contact was required at least until a horse became proficient at the movements. 

Watching entry level dressage shows, I saw people trained by a few different dressage instructors around a couple of states in my area. This is the common type of riding I saw and did not want to emulate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stufvB1NFM4
At higher levels, I did not see that people were more subtle or used less forceful leg and bit cues.

At 3rd level: poke, poke, poke with the spur. Which type of constant cuing bothered my own mare even without a spur on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq6c8fDM6Fc
Now up to 4th level and we’re still kicking the horse in the side. Not so subtle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnoe1Cu5NF0
Considering most riders don’t even make it to these levels…when does the subtle communication begin?

This is not something I want to teach the young riders I mentor. The method I use is different from what I was taught. I’m not saying this is “the right way” to ride, but it is a method that I’ve seen help young riders become secure on a horse and learn how to stay out of a horse’s way and let the horse move well.

What I teach them is that first you need to know how to fall off somewhat safely, and how to leap off in an emergency.

Next you learn how to have a really secure lower leg. You need to have a stable base so your inner leg between mid-inner thigh and mid-calf never leaves the horse’s side but also does not squeeze or grip. The pressure comes down from your body weight rather than in from the side.

You need to be able to twist in your saddle and look behind you, to clear off the horse’s back if he bucks or bolts suddenly, to two-point effortlessly for miles with your butt an inch off the saddle. You should be able to post for a half hour without tiring, to switch diagonals at will and to go back to two point without a bobble. 
None of this requiring muscle strength, just the right technique that uses balance, the horse’s movement and gravity.

You need to be able to shorten and lengthen your reins with barely a thought. Every contact with the horse's mouth should be purposeful with the exact amount of pressure you mean to apply. Every cue should be followed by a fast release. You should not bounce when transitioning up or down, but instead should rise lightly off the horse’s back and absorb the movement with your hips, knees and ankles. 

As far as lightness goes, and subtlety…you should very rarely use your lower leg to cue. The horse should respond from the weight changes in your seat alone and the amount of twist you have in your torso, shoulders and legs. Big circle, small circle or about face, you just turn and look where you want to go with your whole body and the horse should follow. If the horse resists, you back it up with a leading rein. You shouldn’t have to cue for walk, trot or canter. You should be able to communicate with your seat and posture that you wish to go faster. 

I didn’t learn any of this in dressage. I learned to stay loose, relaxed and barely put any weight in my stirrups. Which meant when I took a horse out on a rough, patchy field and she started sproinging up and down, my stirrups fell off. 

I learned to sit deeply and balance in the saddle. Which meant when my horse flipped a 180 degree turn I spun off.

I learned to balance the horse with the inside leg into the outside rein. I learned to put one leg on the girth and the other leg back, to turn around the inside leg. I learned to use a supporting rein and a direct rein and indirect rein. But eventually I learned my horses didn’t need a dozen cues designed by an anal retentive control freak to turn in a circle or step to one side. They didn’t need a driving seat or leg cues to go forward, and they didn’t need to be driven forward strongly into a halt or half halt to balance.

As my non-dressage trained friend showed me, after many hours of good riding her horse was in tune with her body. If her weight dropped to one side, her horse would move back underneath her. So to move her horse sideways across a road, all she had to do was shift a little that way and depending on the degree and speed of the lean, her horse would either step sideways or quickly sidepass across the road. This is the opposite of dressage cues, which would say leaning one direction would push the horse the other way, off the pressure from the seat bones. But it is easier and more intuitive to teach a horse to stay underneath your seat rather than to push them away from it. 

Another intuitive thing horses learn unless they are taught differently is that if you move your weight forward, they should go faster. Dressage teaches to drive a horse forward by pushing them with your seat bones. But the horse feels more natural having you stay with their center of gravity, and so will keep their balance with you and speed up. I could go on, but the images and concepts of dressage are not necessarily intuitive for horse or rider. I've never felt a horse seemingly slowed or pushed backward by me leaning forward but I've heard "if you lean forward, you are pushing your seatbones against the direction of the horse's energy." Of course I have ridden a couple horses that were trained to stop if the rider came off the seat, which was awkward for me. Cow horses are sometimes trained this way.

So…that’s how I came to the conclusion that dressage is being sold to people as this beautiful dream that is “the best” riding, and I began to wish someone had told me years ago that there are other perspectives that may be more suitable for many people, but more importantly more suitable for many horses.
By now this is how I view dressage…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yo6onmKDys


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## gottatrot

Today I was out enjoying the relationships I have with my horses. Halla is a very opinionated person. I find her amusing every day. For instance, if I bring an apple out and give each horse half out in the field, I can halter Halla but she insists that she must finish chewing and eating the entire apple before she will consent to being led away. I'll say, "Come on," and try to get her to hurry, but she plants her feet and gives me this look, so I try not to be rude and wait until she's done. 

Saddling Halla...I finally found her "spot" for saddling, a couple weeks ago. At our last barn she had a "spot" where she preferred to be saddled. Of course I _could_ saddle her anywhere else, but doing so meant fidgeting, moving, swinging the butt around on occasion, and in general a more difficult experience. At this barn, I had yet to find that spot. But a couple weeks ago I discovered the perfect spot. We go about three feet to the right of actual tie rack, to a pasture gate. I can drop the lead here or just throw it over the top of the gate, and Halla will stand stock still and content to be tacked up. Just like at the other barn, I could either argue with her every day about fidgeting while getting saddled, or I can put her in the right spot and she'll be an angel. She's just very opinionated.

It was warm but very windy today. I rode Halla for the first time in the curb bit using a curb strap rather than a chain. That was the ticket. Now the pressure doesn't scare her. Honestly, she is already fairly well adjusted to the bit at slower speeds. I rode her for about an hour, starting in the arena and making sure she could transition up and down easily. The feel of the bit is something I'll have to get used to. I notice that sometimes when it feels like I have pressure on the reins, the bit is only a little rotated in Halla's mouth but the chin strap is not engaged. So I'll have to sort out when I'm actually cueing or not. 

We worked on circles and following her head with her entire body, which I need to be strict about working on every time we ride. She did well, so we went out and rode around the fields. Mostly I was able to keep her on a "loose" rein, which to me means a non-cueing rein rather than a looping one. Due to the wind and the dog that darted out from behind some bushes a couple times, Halla did a couple of leaping forward type of spooks. Both times I could tell that although I caught her with my hands with the reins out of habit, she tolerated the contact and pulled up just fine without being frightened by it. 

Something I noticed was that the bit seems to work better when I use it as a single unit, or one-handed for stopping as recommended by BSMS. So I tried to spend a lot of time practicing turning, stopping and slowing one handed. It's not my habit to spend a lot of time riding one-handed. It will take some experimenting to see what works best. Possibly I will try to ride one handed unless I need to turn sharply. But I prefer to put the reins through the fingers of one hand rather than holding the reins in a fist as I was taught long ago in western pleasure lessons, or bridging. I briefly tried bridging to see if it would work, but the rubber reins I'm using didn't slide enough.


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## bsms

Post 71 really resonated with me, although I learned (as best I could) a forward seat, largely from reading Littauer and trying to do what he said. I still think a forward seat is a good approach. It helped me to stay on a horse who otherwise would have dumped me many times, although I also needed an Australian saddle for a year or two to help me in the hard spins.

My grandkids were watching "Kung Fu Panda" recently, and I realized I often felt like Po. The "Fabulous Five" have great kata. Po isn't built for great kata. He can't do anything he is supposed to do. When he eventually gets "The Dragon Scroll", it is just a reflection, and it takes a little while for him to realize that IS the secret - it is just him, functioning the way he must.

In riding, the "Dragon Scroll" looks much the same, but has writing on the outside. It says, *"Must be opened when your horse is looking over your shoulder!*" Then the rider (and horse) look and see...the two of them. Together.

I know it is corny, but I think that is the secret of horsemanship. It isn't form. It isn't rules. It certainly is not a set of human judges. It is learning that it all comes down to you and your horse. Not someone else, and not someone else's horse. On any given day, it is the two of you, learning to work together with whatever failings and foibles you have that day.

I won't get a chance to ride Bandit until Sunday. But Bandit has been much improved during the few rides I've had these last few week. Thinking about it:

Bandit had a messed up front leg he used at a 30-40 degree angle while in shoes. Since going barefoot, that leg has rotated straight. But it was only in December that the farrier saw a straight, front to back wear pattern. Even in October's visit, it was 20-30 degrees off.

There are 168 hours in a week. Even if I rode him 5 times a week for 2 hours a day, that would be 10 hours out of 168: 6%. That means 94% of the time, he is moving on his own. This last week, it would be 168 out of 168 hours moving on his own. In the last 60 days, almost all of the 1440 hours have been unridden.

But maybe HE is teaching HIMSELF that it is safe to move naturally, and safe to trot around the corral, being chased or chasing another horse while using his legs straight and thus freeing his back. 

In a few weeks, I should have time to start riding regularly. When I do, he will not be the same horse I was riding regularly in early November. We will once again need to open the Dragon Scroll, look at it, and then go ride - together.

And we will always need to experiment, because Bandit hasn't read any books and doesn't know what people think horses do. He may not do what Trooper would do or Cowboy would do, let alone what some person thinks all horses do! The last couple of rides, he has done very well in a Billy Allen curb bit with the reins attached to the mouthpiece. And while I was thinking of transitioning him to a curb bit...if he does really well in a certain set-up, why would I insist on changing? I could certainly TRY it, and watch, but I shouldn't think I need to succeed.

Horses like Halla and Mia, and even more relaxed horses like Bandit (and even level-headed little Cowboy), need to be approached and understood as individuals. The key to horsemanship is what you are doing with Halla: working with her, learning about her, and finding compromises and solutions that work when the two of you are together.

Littauer would have approved, but I didn't understand much of what he wrote when I first read it. I came to riding so steeped in the tradition that riders rode and horses obeyed that it has taken me YEARS to accept the obvious. It isn't the Forward Seat I love. It isn't the Dressage Seat I disliked. It isn't a saddle type or an style of riding. It is always just me and the horse on a given day. 

The shared experiences of other riders gives me things I can try, and keep or discard depending on how they work. But there are no rules, other than accepting it is always me and my horse, that day, trying to figure out how two very different creatures can become one in purpose and movement.


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## gottatrot

Yes! We will never "arrive," we will always need to experiment to see what works for us as individuals with our individual horses. For one thing, our horses change physically and mentally over the years. We do too, so we need to be willing to adapt rather than being stuck in a set of rules for riding.

For instance, Halla was a different horse to ride after her serious knee injuries a few years ago. If a horse is laid off for awhile, or changes environments, everything can change. They may become more strong and serious after accepting a leadership role in a herd, or after having more life experiences.

I posted from a blog on another thread, which some people seemed to see as a negative comment toward personality types. What I got from the article is that most people are taught that horses must be controlled at all costs, and that many people drawn to horses tend to micro-manage things either out of habit or to feel more safe. I know I am just now beginning to try to unlearn my habits of controlling rather than listening and learning from the horses as people.

A Cure for “Type-A-Control-Freak” Riders, presented by Horse Country Shoe Repair – Horse Junkies United


> We are haunted by beauty: some riders and horses have a synergy and together they ride just to the edge of control–and balance there, sharing perfection. There is brilliance in the art of the edge, *but you have to give up some control to let the horse be there*–you have to trust him. These are the moments that hook us forever because we become vulnerable partners.
> Our rules and restrictions fall away and in the moment, we are as authentic as a horse. It might happen doing flying changes in the arena or it might be picking a trail over uneven ground. It’s humbling to feel your horse rise up under you and offer himself.
> 
> And if you feel it once, just an instant, the addiction takes hold and we try to re-create it at all cost. *That desire is our doom and for a time, things get worse by our own force of will. Instead, like a surfer waiting for the perfect wave, we have to stay open and be ready to go along.*
> 
> *Our intention is to make perfection, but perfection is already a horse’s natural state. Thinking that we need to micro-manage the horse is the ultimate vote of no trust. The more we hold our horse or correct the mistake before it happens, the more our horse loses confidence in his own ability. We damage their balance and rhythm but most of all, we stifle their personality and individuality. We end up damaging the traits we loved the most and progress is simply not possible–we are in our own way.*
> *It takes a strange courage to un-control the outcome.*..
> 
> *I’m lucky. My horses never had much tolerance for my intolerant ways. *And since I was Type A, I controlled myself…to give them time to answer; time to be beautiful and intelligent. Hush. I had to quit nagging long enough to let him volunteer. Then I had to find my manners and let him know how I felt. It required honesty, in the moment, beyond external noise. I had to be real in order to progress.
> 
> The best reason to improve our riding is that it allows the horse to work his magic on us. The more we get out of his way, and let him carry himself, the more he gains the confidence to partner in our dance. Our riding should not limit the horse’s best qualities but rather, encourage the horse help us possess them also.
> 
> It’s a perfect plan: equine passion pulls us past the self-loathing part and then horses mentor us to wholeness. We can learn compassion where there used to be criticism, and baseboards be ****ed, so much more about ourselves to like.


I agree with the writer of this post who says, "I'm lucky. My horses never had much tolerance for my intolerant ways."
I've always liked that book title, "My Horses, My Teachers." They really do teach us, if we are willing to learn. 

Sometimes I swear, Halla looks at me and says, "Patience, young grasshopper."


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## gottatrot

*The Princess and the Pea*

I'm not sure if this is a familiar story, but Amore is just like "The Princess and the Pea." In the story, the princess can feel a single pea through layers of mattresses and it bothers her terribly. Well, my little mare is exactly like that; the tiny little things bother her to no end.

Yesterday, I forgot and just threw a different girth on my saddle. My Ghost treeless saddle came with a very nice girth, and I like how it has keepers for the strap ends. So I put it on Amore and went out to ride. Well, it was too fat, and apparently touched Amore's legs a bit. Which meant when I asked her to canter, the girth touched her leg, and so she tried to buck instead of canter. We tried again, she threw her legs out sideways and turned into a banana shape. In fact, she was sideways "inverted." 
And so we walked and trotted. 
I have a very flat girth, made especially for sensitive Arab types with elbows that meld into the barrel. Lesson learned, I will not deviate from using that girth in the future.

You may wonder how I know my horse is not just being "full of beans" or even naughty. Well, I've spent many years with this horse learning about the pea under the mattress.

A person has to be a Sherlock Holmes of sorts in order to find the pea sometimes. 

Once, Amore came in from the pasture unable to put weight on one leg. This frightened me, and I worried she might have fractured something. Luckily, a sharp eyed person was there and spotted a tiny mark on the coronary band of the lame leg. It was a small sliver, sticking into the skin above the hoof. We pulled it out and my horse was cured, suddenly able to walk and move about freely.

Another day, I put a pommel bag on the front of Amore's saddle. It was a small little bag, but it touched her neck as we rode in a different way than she was used to. On that day, whenever we tried to canter, Amore crow-hopped. It couldn't be that silly little bag, could it? I took it off. No more crow-hopping. 

Another time, we started out on a ride and Amore felt hunched over like I was riding on a turtle. As we continued, she began dragging the toe of each back hoof on the pavement. It seemed like a serious neurological issue. Discussing my concerns with friends as I led her home, someone noted they'd seen my mare standing next to a gelding across the fence and urinating over and over all day, as mares will when in heat. It turned out her back was sore from clenching those muscles, hence the turtle back and dragging toes. All cleared up by morning.

Amore has knocked her head and fallen down. Not unconscious, just believing she was dead or dying, she had to be convinced to move again. She's also slipped and fallen and stayed down, apparently thinking she should just lie where she'd fallen until someone came along and told her to get up. 

You can put the wrong saddle on this horse and paralyze her. She will be unable to move. You can put the wrong bit on this horse, one that's too heavy and she'll drop her head to the ground as if she can no longer lift it.

The funny thing is, she is so athletic and can go for miles and miles without ever seeming tired. Her skin is tough and she never abrades it out in rough country. Her hooves are strong, she can nimbly move over the roughest ground without stepping wrong.
Yet if a bee flies by too closely she'll shake her head for ten minutes. 
She's extremely tough physically, but very dramatic and sensitive mentally.


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## gottatrot

Tonight by the time I was done with the horse chores it was about the time they normally are fed their dinner. When I took the horses out of their pasture they were quite happy, thinking I was about to feed them. The happiness turned to suspicion when I tied them up and put a bareback pad on Amore. Uh-oh, was dinner time turning into working time?

Hopping on Amore, I ponied Halla next to us and the horses headed out without hesitation and much quicker than either of them would have walked out alone. Once we headed out into the big field on the west side of the property, however, the wind picked up and it began to rain lightly. 

Now the horses began to question why we were out here. 
"What is the point?" they seemed to ask. 
I thought it was funny that our three heads were so close together. Amore led, Halla walked with her head just in front of Amore's shoulder, and I sat on Amore. I told them we were a three-headed monster.

We went through a narrow trail and Amore kicked out at Halla a couple of times. Usually this is not allowed by Halla, but for some reason Amore felt like kicking out. Halla did not appear to be doing anything rude toward Amore, and yet Halla took it very blandly as if she didn't even notice. It was a rather feeble gesture, as fake kicks go.
We went over a log, up a steep little hill and exited the trail into a large, grassy field. 

Suddenly the horses got the point of our little journey as I jumped off and gave the horses some line so they could graze. Now the rain didn't bother them and they were very happy to be out in this lush field with endless tufts of green grass. They were eating so fast the grass was bunching up and hanging out both sides of their mouths. 

It was a lovely, gray evening, about this color:








The grassy field is on a hill which sloped down to a body of water such as the one pictured above. I suspect it is a creek, because salmon run up it sometimes, but it looks more like a lake after all the rain we've had over the winter. 

Everywhere I've been in the world has beauty, and there is an endless variety. 
Yet people have their places where the air feels right in their lungs, there is neither too much nor too little moisture touching their skin, and where the eyes see the vista that means the most to their soul. 
The sounds in these places are comforting, the scents add depth and character, and a powerful connection is felt, a sense of belonging. 

It's intriguing how to one person a place's winter can feel dark, dank and depressing while to another it can seem like a break from too much brightness, like taking a nap in a quiet room. To one person the storm is frightening, to another it feels like the energy of the world, like hearing God's voice. One person feels dampness and cold, another finds rejuvenation. 








I hope everyone finds themselves in the places they appreciate, and with good horses by their side.


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## gottatrot

Today I rode Halla down to the beach in the curb bit. I knew I wanted to take her out alone for at least the first time or two on the beach in the curb, because her downfall is being competitive and overly concerned about what other horses are doing. 

As I rode through the field, I noted the wind was blowing strongly and steadily from the Northwest. Halla being Halla was unperturbed. She can spook with the best, but does not waste spooks. She is an amazingly bold horse and strode out like a lion underneath me. Now that I was on my horse, I was bold too. 
However, Halla is not a horse to be easily swayed, her feelings are quite independent of the rider. We may share confidence but she will be confident with or without me, and insecure with or without me. Yet we can also share a feeling between us, and it makes us feel stronger.

Since I'd been running on the beach earlier in the day, I knew there was Valella valella and they were on the fresh side. When I'd stepped on them they had been very slippery, so I planned to take an easy pace in case they were slippery for horses too.

















They are oddly tiny this year, but still smell like someone dumped fish guts all over the beach. 
There were also quite a few people on the beach, which puzzled me since they seemed to be driving around aimlessly and parking randomly. The weather was cold and the wind incessant, the beach smelled rancid, and to all appearances the people were not out clamming. 

Halla went beautifully in the bit. My reins were loose almost the entire time. I worked on having her trot without applying contact first. When she went too fast, I used a steady pull on both reins to slow her. She responded immediately.

Two things are helping a lot. One is having a leather curb strap rather than a chain.
The other thing is that I'm thinking of the bit as a single unit and trying to use it accordingly. I think this may be what helps retrain Halla. I found a modified bridge actually was what worked the best. I'm not certain my body stays straight if I have one arm forward, and I already have a crooked horse. So I used the bridge. Each hand held a rein through the third finger as I usually hold them, which connected to the horse's mouth. But the bridge part I held in other fingers and it connected my hands to each other so I could remember to use the reins together. Similar to this:








I was taught that it is a cardinal sin to bring your hand holding a rein across to the other side of the withers. Since I have learned many other rules that are not useful to me, I tried something new. Whenever Halla's head was off course of where we were heading, I brought both reins over to the side in the direction I wanted her head to move. As soon as she brought her head over, I put the reins back to center. This seemed to work and we had some trot strides and several canter strides that were perfectly straight. 

Another thing I tried was riding her in the direction her head was pointing, which meant several times she ended up heading toward the dune or heading toward the ocean. She didn't want to go that way, so this made her hesitate, at which point I turned her back straight. That might be helpful too.
Someone took our picture, I think Halla looked beautiful prancing out there with mane and tail flying in the wind. 

Back at the barn, someone told me it was spring break, which explained the die hard aimless wanderers on the beach.


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## gottatrot

I've been wondering lately if I'm becoming more cautious. It feels like that sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I don't think being cautious is a bad thing, quite the opposite. But as a thinking rider, I want to be very aware and make conscious decisions about horsemanship rather than falling into unconscious patterns. This is why I am pondering the question.

What I believe is that I am not becoming more cautious, I am just dealing with a new situation, which is that my primary riding area is more challenging than what I've dealt with in the past. It's not that I don't want to be cautious, it's that I don't want to be making excuses for not taking the horses into situations or really working through them due to my own loss of confidence.

What I'm beginning to realize, is that what we are facing in our everyday rides is quite extreme. When friends and I used to take horses to the beach for rides, we had many things that made our lives much easier. We'd often choose a group of horses based on the fact that all were in good shape and ready for a gallop, we'd have a leader horse we felt could slow down the group after a bit, and we'd choose a day with fine weather. We'd also go at certain times when the tides were good, it was unlikely that many people would be on the beach (mid-week afternoon), and we'd almost always have a wide, flat stretch of sand in front of us with a clear blue sky and sun shining down.

I'm realizing the beach, our primary venue for everyday riding, is very tough for horses. Where we used to ride, the trails through the woods would often stay almost the same each day. Sometimes a tree would fall down, or flowers would bloom. But we would have the same corners, the same ups and downs, and each trail was similar to another even if we went for miles. The footing was gravel or grass or dirt.

The beach is different. Some days it is a small, steep slope of shifting deep sand that is only twenty feet wide with huge waves crashing down right next to us. Some days it is a wide, flat expanse that is 360 feet wide or more. Sometimes it is smooth and shiny. Sometimes it has deep ruts and lines all over. There can be no debris for a mile, or there can be thirty objects such as drift wood, fluttering pieces of plastic, empty buckets and shells in thirty feet. The sand can make a thudding sound under a horse's feet or it can sound like a dry rattlesnake rattle or it can make a scuffing sound.

Then there are the people. They throw balls, they jump. They ride bicycles, chase barking dogs, fly kites over our heads. They attach fluttering flags to their cars and drive them splashing through the water. They start fires, run into the water and scream. There are helicopters that fly low over our heads. There are also shells that litter the beach at times, dead rotting sea birds and fish, and elk herds that congregate along the way to the beach. The waves keep coming towards us.

So I believe what I've concluded is that I'm not being more cautious than I was in the past, but instead I am dealing with an ever changing environment and taking each day as it comes. Yesterday, I was hesitant to let Amore canter very fast or very long. The beach was littered with hazards, she felt wound up tight underneath me. On our final canter she kicked a hind leg out high to one side so I knew she was feeling a little goosey. 

Knowing that others I ride out with might want to take off down the beach, sometimes I feel bad about saying I'd like to do more trotting or to take a slower pace some days. There are many valid reasons for this, such as horses that are not in excellent shape at the moment or too warm weather and a horse still in winter coat. Then I check to make sure my valid reasons are not excuses that are covering for my lack of confidence. But honestly, I do believe I am most of the time successfully riding the fine line of when and where to let these hot, reactive horses' energy out, even in this type of environment, while keeping in consideration the fitness level, the tripping hazards, and safety for all.
It's another part of horsemanship, a difficult one. Knowing how to be safe without cowering in fear, knowing how to keep others safe when they have no compass for what can happen with out of control horses, knowing when you need to push yourself and your horses a bit, to find the boldness within.


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## gottatrot

How can I describe what happened today? It was the best ride I've had on Halla since before we moved to this barn, before her health issues, so probably in about two years. 

I can't get over how much I love the Ghost saddle. It took a little while for me to trust it, to know for certain it wouldn't slide and that I could just ride hell-bent for leather and not worry about how any loss of balance might affect it. It is everything I want a saddle to be - just _there_. It is on the horse and doesn't affect the horse, and doesn't affect me, and I don't affect it. It does what I want: keeps my weight clear of the spine, holds my stirrups, and stays put. 

Another thing is that I am loving the Myler curb bit. The last two rides I've stopped thinking about it as much and have just been using it as comes naturally. It's an odd thing, but it's both less and more than the Kimberwicke I was using. Without a chain, I can tell that it doesn't have as much of a bite as the Kimberwicke did. Halla does not react the same way to it. 

It's hard to describe, but when we were running along and she didn't want to stop or turn, she'd resist the Kimberwicke until finally she'd give in to the pressure. With the curb and leather chin strap, I can tell that the pressure isn't painful enough to "force" her to do anything. In fact, she can completely ignore it if she wants. But she is very comfortable with it, and for instance today when she didn't want to stop I asked her three times before she did. Yet she was not fighting or resisting, it was just that she didn't care to stop quite yet. That might make someone uncomfortable, but the directional signal is very good and I can pull her right around in a tight circle if need be. It's not a problem to get her going where I want and to get her to slow or stop. In fact, I became very comfortable with how comfortable she was.

A very nice thing I'm finding about this type of bit is that I cannot ride on constant contact. It just doesn't work. You can't really hold it still in a horse's mouth, due to the swiveling shanks and the length of them. In order to keep a contact, you'd have to have very short reins and the horse would be quite restricted. It's a different feel completely from a snaffle. 

I've been teaching her that if I bump one rein I want her to straighten her head out, and then I stop bugging her. She asked to go faster, and I told her if she went straight it was fine. That's the reason I haven't been galloping her, because I did not feel safe having her gallop if she couldn't straighten out. But today when I straightened her and let her go faster, she galloped out straight down the beach. So I gave her a loose rein, and felt entirely confident that my horse would decide to agree with me when I thought we'd gone far enough. 

In order for me to completely confident on a galloping horse, I need to trust my equipment, to know the horse is up to it physically, to trust the footing is good, and to know the horse has the ability to think. 

It's all very well to say you can just let a horse gallop and they'll stop eventually. But in my experience that's not a good idea. You really ought to have some kind of control before "going there." If you both work up to longer distances gradually, you'll both be fit enough to handle it. Galloping requires some muscle strength, and I've tried letting a horse gallop out and too late realized I wasn't fit enough, and it's a real challenge. Without the ideal amount of muscle tension and looseness that keeps you perfectly balanced, it becomes a struggle. You can't completely relax, and you can't get too tight either or you'll lose your seat, and both of those things are natural to try when your muscles fatigue. It's very uncomfortable to run out of muscle strength and essentially flop around on the saddle trying to stay balanced. 

Anyway, I digress. It was thrilling to feel everything come together at last, and to comfortably gallop down the beach on a lovely, sunny afternoon. My friend said Halla's expression lately has been soft and happy. Hopefully this is the beginning of many more good things to come.


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## gottatrot

Valhalla is a beautiful horse (IMHO), even with her knobbly scarred knees, scarred nose and still half in her winter coat.








But if you want to see her real beauty, you have to see her in motion.

Some may not understand why they call Arabs "Drinkers of the wind."
































It is absolutely incredible we ride this pure, athletic energy.


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## egrogan

What happened to her knees, Gottatrot?

Those in-motion photos are truly gorgeous.


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## gottatrot

Thank you, my friend took the pics. 

About four years ago, Halla fell on gravel while going down a steep hill, sliding a few feet and taking all the flesh off her knees. They took a few months to heal and get full range of motion back, and she still has some lumpy scar tissue. Thankfully the joints were not involved and she's very sound. The vet isn't sure if she will have arthritis from it, but so far so good at 20.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> Thank you, my friend took the pics.
> 
> About four years ago, Halla fell on gravel while going down a steep hill, sliding a few feet and taking all the flesh off her knees. They took a few months to heal and get full range of motion back, and she still has some lumpy scar tissue. Thankfully the joints were not involved and she's very sound. The vet isn't sure if she will have arthritis from it, but so far so good at 20.


Ouch! Poor Halla, that sounds really, really painful. I'm sure the aftercare on an injury like that was tough for you and her! Glad she came through mostly ok though.

When my mom was a little kid, she was riding on the handlebars of her sister's bike and fell off going doing a gravel hill. She broke a few teeth and still has some gravel embedded in her hands and arm.


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## gottatrot

Thanks, Egrogan. Your mom is lucky she didn't have a traumatic brain injury. I always think that's odd to see gravel under skin. 
*************************************************

OK, here is my new silly video of Halla's new and improved straightness. I thought it was neat how the shadows ended up. To be clear, when I canter in two-point my hind end does not hit the saddle, although it may appear that way in the shadow. LOL, just had to say that. Also I am not a unicorn.

If you want to see what she does with her head that makes her nose pop up into the camera lense sometimes, you can see in the shadow at about 4:30 how she tosses it. She's always been what they call a "head shaker" and I haven't been able to figure it out. There are theories such as allergies and nerve pain. My guess is she had some mild nerve damage when her nose bone was damaged by her prior owner hard tying her. It could be that the wind and also sweating makes the nerve fire because she will shake her head on a loose rein, taut rein, and every bit or bitless I've tried. Not as often in the pasture, mostly when we're out riding. But it doesn't seem to bother her too much, or make her miserable. I tried a nose net but she didn't like the net at all.









Here's our ride with Nala the TB to some Arab appropriate music (always goofy to ride):
We ride over some writing in the sand and I paused the video to see what it said. Someone wrote: "Listen to my mix tape." Worthwhile message? Better than some I've seen.
https://youtu.be/4x0RFuorep4


On a side note, I'm an advocate of cantering and galloping in two-point like these "Evention" folks do. It helps keep an independent seat, have good balance, and it's easy to keep up for a long time.
https://youtu.be/ROzIv-GuyZs


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## egrogan

Wow, now THAT is an impressive place to ride! It's snowing and 20*F here today, as it was all weekend, so we're still stuck in the indoor. Looked like a ton of fun, the horses seemed to enjoy themselves. Are you in the US?

PS- I also really like a lot of the Evention videos. They are entertaining and still explain things well.


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## Bondre

Those photos of Valhalla are beautiful. She is a lovely horse.

I watched the video (what a great place for fast work) and was struck by how she is often travelling with her head to one side. I imagine the effect is magnified by the fish-eye lens of the camera, and that she is not really going that crooked? In the video it feels sometimes as if there's nothing in front of you and she's leading with her shoulder. 

It was most noticeable at the beginning, maybe she is saying "come on, canter!" and you are saying "not yet" so she is twisting in anticipation? Once you start cantering she straightens out.

Great effects of the shadows on the sand. I love the strongly backlit image of your friend on Nala, and the neat shadow they cast, about halfway through the video. 

On the subject of strange articles embedded in knees, my husband has a clearly visible piece of mule hair in his knee, from over thirty years back. The mule in question has long since passed away, but she left an unusual memento.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan

Bondre said:


> On the subject of strange articles embedded in knees, my husband has a clearly visible piece of mule hair in his knee, from over thirty years back. The mule in question has long since passed away, but she left an unusual memento.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think we need more explanation of that one, Bondre!


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## Bondre

The amazing things kids do, right Egrogan?! I don't remember how the hair ended up in his knee, I'll have to ask him again. Maybe he was climbing up the mule's tail? :icon_rolleyes:

His family lived in a mountainous area where mules were commonly used for ploughing and as pack animals until quite recently. I do know that it was common practice for the muleteers to hang on to the mule's tail for a bit of help going up a steep hill. Though that would explain getting a piece of the tail embedded in your hand, but not in your knee...


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## gottatrot

Yes, the mule hair sounds like it must have an interesting story behind it. 

Bondre, the sad thing is I'm very excited to only have Halla moving her head off to the side this much. It was to the point where it felt unsafe, as you said leading with her shoulder rather than her head. I'm working to reconnect the idea that she needs to follow her head with her body rather than using it independent of her body. 

That's not so bad if you're going slow, but as you get faster it's unsafe to not have the head and neck in front of where you're going. So as you saw, we're overcoming that tendency and she was able to get nearly straight at the canter and the gallop last week, with only periods where we lost the connection. There's another video I have where I rarely ever have her head in the camera view.

It's something new this horse has been teaching me, something to avoid letting a horse learn. You can get away with small mistakes on horses that aren't so energetic and hot blooded, but this type teaches all about things to avoid. 

One thing I won't do based on this type of experience is teach a horse to back up quickly when they won't go forward or get confused. I've seen people back horses as a way to get them "unstuck," and it seems like a good idea which I've tried and others I know have. Yet I've seen the consequences of horses that begin to feel secure with backing and go to that behavior on their own when they want to evade or get confused. I've seen horses back rapidly through a line of other horses on a narrow trail, causing problems such as horses getting knocked off the trail or horses kicking each other. I've also been on horses backing toward a ditch or cars passing by.


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## Bondre

Yes, I'm with you on not backing up as a correction. Macarena backs up voluntarily much too readily for my liking, and I certainly don't want to encourage that! In our first year together she tried balking once, at a crossroads with three large, sunken irrigation structures in the corners between the arms of the crossroads. She didn't want to go forward and started backing, and whichever way I turned her there was a ****ed concrete hole behind us. These weren't small holes either, half a horse would fit in easily. I was getting to the point of seriously considering dismounting when she gave in and moved forward.

When they start backing up off their own bat there is so little you can do - except train them not to do so once you get home safely lol. Last autumn Macarena backed me under trees and towards ditches with tedious regularity, which was when I decided that enough was enough. However, curiously, amongst other things I taught her to back up on cue under saddle, and when she's nervous I ask her to disengage and often I ask her to back up a few steps, and this helps to calm her. So now I realise that I am doing just what I believe you shouldn't do.... hmmm, have to think about this one. :icon_rolleyes:

I'm glad that Valhalla is improving in straightness. In the video it was most noticeable at the start when you were trotting. At the canter her head was visible most of the time. 

I wasn't wanting to criticise, I just have to admit that I was a bit taken aback at the initial absences of her head in the video. And you say you have a video where her head is rarely visible :shock: I guess you are used to this, but I would find it pretty scary riding a headless horse! A bit like driving without a seat belt - there's nothing to stop you being ejected if you brake hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> I wasn't wanting to criticise, I just have to admit that I was a bit taken aback at the initial absences of her head in the video. And you say you have a video where her head is rarely visible :shock: I guess you are used to this, but I would find it pretty scary riding a headless horse! A bit like driving without a seat belt - there's nothing to stop you being ejected if you brake hard.


Critical feedback is welcome. I don't find some of these issues easy to deal with, and I like to hear any advice about what might help. Honestly, I appreciate input. I always invite good riders to get on and see if they can help in any way...unfortunately they watch us go and rarely take me up on it. Something about how Halla goes makes people not want to try her out.  Well, she's got big gaits and exudes hot-bloodedness. One barn owner where I boarded was frightened by Halla even though she usually behaves well on the ground, something about her energy I guess. But she had two stallions! So I couldn't understand that. 

It's a long process. I think BSMS wrote something recently about how he has the time to slowly work through issues with horses, and my impression was that he felt this long process was possibly related to his not being an experienced trainer. My belief is that deep seated problems always take a long time for horses to get over, and that if you send a horse to a trainer for a short period of time, the horse either gets a bandaid put over the problem or the trainer will pass on the horse. I've known a few trainers personally and worked my horses alongside them. I've seen how many times they either tell someone that the horse is a problem, or fix the problem in one limited setting, or focus on just one problem when the horse has many issues. 

For instance, a horse with similar bucking problems to Amore was working with a trainer at the same time. The trainer advised that the horse "liked" to buck, that the horse was unsuitable for regular riding and advised that the owner sell the horse as a rodeo bucking horse, which the owner did. Meanwhile, I put the time in and Amore became more reliable. But it wasn't easy or fast. However, one very useful thing a trainer can do is give a person an idea or framework to work on improving an issue. Then the owner can put the time in on their own later.

I've learned how long and slow of a process it is to work with a horse with real, serious issues. 
My friend got a horse, aged 20. She had many, deep seated issues. The process started out with trying to get the horse to ride away from the barn. The horse reared constantly. She'd go out for a quarter mile and rear straight up every five steps. That was the beginning of the process. After a time, the horse would go out for a mile and rear only three times. The horse learned that forward movement was another way to deal with her fear, and soon rarely reared but sometimes bolted. Then the process was to progress from bolting to a too-long-gallop to cantering without being asked. Then it was just prancing excitedly and asking to canter and only rarely losing control. It went from not being able to stop when excited to having it just take awhile to slow down.

When I met my friend and her horse, the horse was 25 and they were coming to the end of this process. If someone saw my friend riding at this point, they might think her horse was not well behaved, but when you understand where the horse came from, it was amazing. Now she is one friend who has no qualms about taking Halla for a ride. 

That horse was easily the fastest horse I've ever ridden, and I never galloped on her full out. Even at her fast canter you could not see objects you were passing because they were too blurry. When we went to the beach with five fast horses and let them all race, that mare drew quickly away and would soon be a mile in front of us. That was running with fast Thoroughbreds, and she was 25. I can't imagine how fast she was when she was young.

Anyway, what I haven't mentioned is that at 28, this horse was being ridden out on slow rides while my friend led lesson kids and she often rode her bareback. She went from going out with two bits, a curb and a snaffle to graduating eventually to a Kimberwicke. 
I doubt my friend will ever love another horse as much. They developed such a strong bond and this horse that had a tough life before meeting my friend had a good ten years as a valued and beloved friend and partner. It wasn't about her ego or proving something to herself or others. Once the horse was hers, she didn't give up on her and just kept riding until they worked out the issues. 

With Halla we've gone from jigging and leaping sideways without any straight steps in either direction down the beach, to going fairly straight one direction and traveling completely sideways the other. People are impressed to see how she can canter and trot completely sideways, but it's a talent I don't want to promote. We progressed to having her body fairly straight but moving with her head off to one side. Now we're progressing to going straight with body following head at walk, canter and gallop with some issues of crookedness at trot and transitions. But I understand it's a long process and the changes are in the right direction.

This was the previous step, before the one we're on. :wink: We'd travel home like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8efceRXm_E4


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## gottatrot

Some good news at the barn today...a couple people went in together and bought a new horse. This horse is their second attempt at buying a safe beginner horse. The first purchase several months ago turned out to be too energetic once he had a good diet and was wormed, so he was returned. This horse seems like he will truly be a horse for beginners.

Why this is good news for me: while I have two horses, neither is ideal to take people out on. Amore is very small, and although she is a good size for kids, she's not reliable. At 25, she can have very nice rides some days and be super calm. Yet on other days she will do something like throw in a buck or twist, out of the blue. The last time my husband rode her, a deer bolted out of the bushes in front of her nose and she spun a 180 very fast and slung him off. He tolerated it fine, and expects that might happen if he gets on a horse (especially he knows ALL about Amore). But I also know that if we ever do get up to a canter, the rider has to balance her even if they're my size, and I doubt a larger beginner rider could manage it. I also have my twin nieces, who will be ten this year. They've been able to ride Amore alone in the arena, and on the lunge line on the beach. But I know it wouldn't be safe to let them do a ride on Amore without being led.

This horse is a QH gelding, about 8 years old. He was listed for sale as a 1 out of 10 in temperament, and he literally seems to be that. He is about 15 hands, has a soft eye, and an alert look. Yet when something very startling happened in this brand new place, he raised his head, eyes got wide, and then he turned to scratch himself. The new owners said he rides like he's been very well trained.

The type of person I get along the least well with is the hysterical, dramatic type. Yet my dramatic, hysterical type horses are just my thing. I find them highly entertaining. Tonight I decided to ride Halla very late, after all the horses had begun eating their night hay. It just is funny how some horses don't hide their emotions and you know exactly how they feel. I brought the bareback pad out, and she was very upset about it. She stood up tall and rigid, turned and walked outside, then back into the shelter. Quite obviously this was not part of the normal schedule, it was quite unfair, and why was I doing this to her? She snorted a couple of times. Then I put the pad on and a bridle, led her outside and she stood still while I hopped on, and then went walking right off like nothing unusual had happened. Down to business. She will let me know she doesn't approve, but then doesn't hold a grudge or anything, and gets right over it.

For some reason Amore is the opposite. She would have stood calmly to get tacked up, would have started off fine, but during the ride would have had difficulty focusing while thinking of her hay waiting for her at home. In my opinion, horses have an abundance of personality. And Arabs even more so. :wink:


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## gottatrot

Stayed up late last night and did a few things at home so I could have a lot of time at the barn today. Had a couple days off and the weather was nice, so of course I can barely move tonight. For one thing, I did my 3 mile run at a faster tempo yesterday since summer is coming and my sister will be wanting me to do some 5Ks with her. Better get up to my usual "middle of the pack" time. Also three rides, lots of barn work, trimmed the goats' hooves at the barn and a few horse hooves. No need to have a gym membership, that's for sure.

Today I went out first on Amore with Satin, the little Arabian that looks just like her. I put a double-jointed D-ring snaffle on Amore, the first time I've ridden her in a bit for a couple months or so. Lately she's been a little goofy at times on the beach, and sometimes the bitless seems to feel like not quite enough control. Satin was quite energetic and "up." My friend who has just recently started riding Satin futilely attempted to make Satin stand still for saddling. I laughed, having been around Arabs in fidgety moods and thinking she should probably save her energy for the ride. 

Amore was in a quite calm disposition, herself. She was mellow through the whole ride, and nothing bothered her at all. Light, forward but relaxed at all gaits, balanced. Satin danced, pranced sideways and up and down. My friend was riding her in my Flower hackamore, and it was not the right headgear for the day. She had a few periods of going on a loose rein, but not many. We cantered a little and Satin had her body and legs going every which way. I wasn't sure if she was switching leads sometimes - it was more random looking like her legs were trying a few different gaits at the same time. Well, we rode about 4 miles and by the end Satin was going well enough. :wink:

My friend said perhaps the next ride she would try her own Tom Thumb snaffle instead. We talked about that for awhile. I told her that although the bit gets a bad rap sometimes, it's not necessarily a bad bit but since she doesn't know if Satin has ever worn a curb, and also Satin doesn't neck rein, she might try a snaffle first. She said her own mare goes beautifully in the Tom Thumb. I didn't mention that I'd ridden her mare in the Tom Thumb several years ago when she'd asked me to exercise the horse when she was on vacation. Her mare objected strongly to the chain by throwing her head forward, eyes bugging out, and slowed down jerkily rather than smoothly even though I was very light with it. That mare is ridden often in a rope halter and definitely does not need a chain - she's a kid safe horse. But my friend's perception was that a Tom Thumb was one of the most gentle western bits out there, and I said only if you don't need to use a lot of contact, and I also said not to use a chain.

On our second ride, I went on Halla, and this same friend took her own QH mare out in a crossunder bitless. We also went with Nala the OTTB. All the horses went very well today. After about a mile, the QH turned around and we took Nala and Halla for a gallop. I know, it's strange their names rhyme. It mixes up people at the barn. I have people ask if Valhalla's name is Halnalla or Nalhalla. 

I wasn't sure how Halla would be today since our ride yesterday wasn't the smoothest. On a whim, I'd taken her out in a snaffle. The last time I rode Halla in a snaffle was several years ago. That was another experiment to see how she'd do. About three miles away from home, up a mountain trail, we ran across a herd of elk in the bushes. Halla couldn't see the elk, just hear them crashing around but I could see their horns sticking up. She was absolutely terrified, and we turned and trotted for home at a fully extended, spanking trot straight down the mountain. I could keep her from cantering, but I couldn't get her mind back, so we trotted the whole way home at a crazy, slip-sliding speed. That was when I decided it wasn't safe to ride her in a snaffle.

We went all the way down to the beach (about a half mile) totally relaxed. Then Halla realized she only had a snaffle in. It was actually more like a Baucher bit since I took a single-jointed Pelham without the chain on and attached the reins to the snaffle setting. But from what I've read, a Baucher really doesn't have much of a different action from a snaffle.















Well, she kept trying to tank off. As in, one step of trot and then gathering her hind legs and pushing off into a gallop. At which point I had to turn her tightly around and make her go back to a walk and try again. So she is far too smart to go in a bit she doesn't respect and just behave. She has to "believe in the bit" so to speak. But I did learn some things other than not to ride Halla in a snaffle. 

I was wondering why I couldn't ride Halla in a snaffle when my friend rides her hot OTTB in one. I think it's just a difference in temperament. Nala was taught to lean into the bit, and she will take off sometimes. But she'll get a fright or a spook or want to run, and doesn't sustain it. Halla is more determined and can build up a level of excitement and sustain it. Her mind is more focused and she has a strong will to run. Nala has a flightier mind and will bend to the will of others, humans and horses. She doesn't sustain a mood or an idea. When I rode her it felt safer, because you can distract her out of things. She'll ask to go fast, and feel like she's charging off. Then you can circle her around, or even just give a strong pull on the reins and she'll change her mind. 

Nala's mind feels like: "I'm soooo excited! Wheee I'm flying! Now what should we do?" 
Halla's mind feels like: "I'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningsofast." Hard to get her out of that loop. 

So what I found out about Halla: she can trot if I hold a slight amount of pressure on the bit. I always thought she was pushing through the pressure and trying to canter. But now that I've spent some time working hard on getting her to trot on a loose rein, I'm realizing she finds it very difficult. When I put the snaffle in and gave her a little contact, she found balance. What I believe is that her strong hind end push and downhill build might make it difficult to balance the big trot when you add the weight of a rider. 








So today when I had Halla back in the Myler curb, I tried asking her to trot with the slightest amount of contact (assuming the curb would magnify my pressure) held as steady as I could. Sure enough, she was able to trot. The other thing I learned in the snaffle was that she really can't trot very small circles, and I believe it's due to impulsion and balance as well. She can canter the tiniest, tight circle but can't trot that small. Today we tried bigger circles, about 100 meter circles and she was able to do those much better. So I am going to have to keep those limitations in mind and see if that helps us make more progress. 

She was even straighter today, and I hoped even if the snaffle ride was a bit rough, at least it reinforced that I wanted her to follow her head with her body. That was something I could really do in the snaffle - use some contact when needed to pull her head straight. But she is learning that well in the curb too.


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## bsms

Have you considered something like these:








​ 







​ 
I've never tried one, but I've READ that some horses find it easier to balance with a tie-down."In the western discipline, a tie-down is a piece of equipment that consists of a strap running from the girth strap to a noseband. This strap gives the horse something to balance on when moving at high rates of speed and changing direction. Since the game of barrel racing is exactly that—moving at high rates of speed and then changing directions—the tie-down is a standard piece of equipment for some...

...When considering whether to use a tie-down or not, there are many things to consider. The most important question to ask yourself is “has my horse had a tie-down on before?” Why is this so important—isn’t a tie-down like a bridle? The answer is *no*! Remember that a tie-down limits the horse’s ability to move its head freely. Horses are flight animals so if they have not been properly trained to use a tie-down and one is put on them, the result can be dangerous. If you are considering using a tie-down for the first time, please do so under the direction of someone who is experienced, for the safety of both you and your horse."

Barrel racing 101: Tie-downs | MSU Extension
​BTW - for cantering in a curb bit, Mia also preferred a little contact. She was still eager, but seemed more focused if I kept some contact with the curb. That wasn't true with a snaffle. Go figure....

And YES: "_Halla's mind feels like: "I'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunningI'mrunnin gI'mrunningsofast." Hard to get her out of that loop...._"


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## tinyliny

why have I not read your journal before? just openned for a peek and think it will be a good one!


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## Bondre

That's an interesting point that you make about Halla's balance at the trot. If the photo is a typical trot stance, yes, there's a lot of forward impulsion and extension there. Does she shorten up when she canters? 

I was finding something similar with Macarena last summer too: she would give me a balanced "collected" canter without too much difficulty but her trot is always forward. I thought she has a nice active working trot but I posted a video for critique and the general verdict was that she was running. So when I think that she's running at the trot, she must be really tanking along. 

Halla looks so fit and lean in your picture. The epitomy of grace and power.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I've never tried one, but I've READ that some horses find it easier to balance with a tie-down.


That's an interesting thought. I would be hopeful to try to teach my mare balance another way, but I will keep that thought on the back burner.
I've been somewhat against tie downs mostly because of aesthetics. Horses that wear them do like to lean against them, and develop the underside neck muscles. I've seen how common they are at rodeos and also how many horses have that ewe-necked appearance from the muscles they create. Perhaps I'm vain enough about my horse to avoid trotting as much versus having an ugly neck. 
The new horse at our barn has that type of neck muscling, and I am guessing he was ridden in a tie down in the past since he doesn't hold his head high naturally or "star gaze."

Thanks, Tinyliny, hope you can give me some of your good tips.

Bondre, yes, Halla does shorten up more at the canter. She has a lot of difficulty sustaining a slow trot, and prefers to really move out. I've read about how many horses are either more efficient at the canter or trot, and I know Amore is more efficient at the trot for long distances and Halla is more efficient at the canter. On our recent ride, the other Arab, Satin was cantering for quite a ways while Amore trotted and they went the same speed (Amore was actually a little faster). For endurance riding, you're supposed to allow your horse to use their more efficient gait the most, to use up the least amount of energy. 
People tell me that when I'm not at the barn, they often see Halla and Nala cantering loops around the pasture so they add fitness even when we're not riding. Amore who is out with them just eats most of the time instead of running. But she is 25 and has Cushing's, so is still doing quite well.


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## gottatrot

Halla keeps a close eye on Nala during rides. It makes Nala feel more at ease.

















There was an interesting thread recently that brought up the difference between dominance and respect. Domination versus leadership. Some recent experiences I've had at work bring this home to me. Two people above me in position do not have my respect at all. In fact, I rather despise them. They remind me of how a horse can be treated by a dominant owner. One told me to get something done, but had no advice on how to do it. "It must happen. There is no way it cannot get done." But how do I do it? She didn't know, she just wanted me to somehow know how to do it. It was frustrating to her that if she just spoke louder at me it didn't change the fact that I didn't know how to do what she asked. Isn't that how it is with horses so many times? They don't know how to do what we want, so we just get louder. 

I watch my own supervisors and see how they meet resistance head on or take it personally, and how that degrades interactions. I see how a rare leader will instead meet resistance with increased communication. They wonder why the person resists, what will help them comply, and give options that the person might respond better to. 
Unfortunately, when we have a shortage of supervisors, I have been trained to fill in the position. It is not my favorite thing to do, but I am better than most because of these observations and also because of what horses have taught me. You don't take a 1,000 lb beast head on, and people's wills can be 1,000 lb beasts too. This weekend I met some valid resistance about what I was asking someone to do. We communicated, she agreed. Later, she again decided it had not been a good idea to comply and planned to file a complaint. We communicated some more. I supported her right to complain, and we talked a lot. As with horses, I told her I reserve the right to have made a wrong decision, and what is important is that we all learn what to do in the future. All of this applies strongly to how we deal with horses. We can ask, they can complain. If they don't wish to comply, we need to communicate more and find out why. Sometimes we need to use our authority to get them to agree. Later, they can change their mind, and we might have to reevaluate. We may find out we were right, and in that case, the horse's behavior will soon change to agree with us. If we were wrong, that's fine too as long as we learn from our mistakes.
But this is how you get people or horses to respect your leadership. There is nothing in particular that makes one outwardly more able to be a leader than another. It is an internal quality that guides one's reactions and interactions with others. So no matter what your position or your attitude of dominance, without respect horses or humans will still think of you as a "peer," or even less. Your title or paycheck will not make others follow your lead, and your bossiness and ability to cause pain will not make a horse see you as a leader even if they do what you say.

Respect is a gift. It cannot be taken by force. 

I really like this quote from BSMS:


> A person can dominate a horse and get him to obey without ever getting the horse's "buy-in". That is how Bandit was ridden. His previous rider was successful with a philosophy of "just force him past things". But just being forced past things did not make Bandit confident, only submissive. Submissive, yet still scared. I want confident, not submissive. And I want eager, not willing. And I think the round pen / lunge line dominance training gets in the way of teaching confident and eager.


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## horseluvr2524

Wow. I am only on page 2, but I am loving your journal! Inspires me to start one.
Geeze I would love to get out of my comfort zone and ride with those ladies that gallop up mountains!
I have to go to bed for an early farrier visit but will be back to read more.


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## knightrider

I agree with Horseluvr. I really look forward to reading a new post on your journal. Very well written and good things to consider and ponder.


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## Bondre

knightrider said:


> I really look forward to reading a new post on your journal. Very well written and good things to consider and ponder.


You have a growing fan club, Gottatrot! I'm in there too. I don't always comment on your posts (don't want to clutter up your journal for you) but I always read and enjoy them.

I love the photos of H and N. Nala's ears are in that neutral position they have when they're deferring to the boss. Macarena's ears are often like that when she interacts with Flamenca. It seems that bossiness and size are often inversely related (and not just in horses lol).


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## horseluvr2524

Halfway through page 5! :grin:

You should seriously consider chronicling your journal and getting it published. Its very fun to read, very descriptive, and very interesting.

I am dealing with my own saddle fit issues. My insanely comfortable Karl Niedersuss Symphony (dressage) that I have put hours and hours in on I found out last month does not fit perfect. My already high withered mare now has those dips under the wither, which I now recognize as muscle atrophy. Looking around at the many horses at the stable where I board (its a horse rescue as well, and a very good one at that) I realized that this seems to be a chronic issue with many horses, yet is unrecognized by most people. I was told by numerous people in the 2 or 3 years that I have had the saddle that it fit very well. It seems customary that to ensure wither clearance saddle makers put extra padding into the area that is supposed to sit behind the shoulder. Unfortunately, this limits the motion of the shoulder and leads to muscle atrophy.
The barn owner seems to think the saddle tree is too wide for her. I personally don't think its too terribly wide, and with a reflocking, the extra padding taken out, and some minor adjustments, might be a really good fit. I'm certainly hoping so! It is going in for repairs this weekend, so we shall see. She did go happily in it for a couple years with no apparent problems, but this past winter just was not moving out as well. I've addressed many things and I think the saddle was one part of the problem, among others.

I wish saddles were as easy to fit as people shoes!


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## gottatrot

Bondre, I'm a big fan of your journal too. 

Everyone, thanks for some good posts, my "like" button isn't working anymore now that the forum changed, but I like them all.

Horseluvr, sorry about your saddle. It can involve a grieving process when your dearly loved saddle does not fit your horse. 
I went through that with a Stubben I loved very much, and also with my Lovatt and Ricketts saddle. 

I've felt the most versatile saddles are quite wide but with enough wither clearance height to fit the high withered horse. It would be a very uncommon thing to have too much space between the panels. Most saddles err on the side of pinching and allow for very little lateral movement. Although Thoroughbreds have high withers, they also often have big shoulders, so when you put the saddle far enough back to clear the shoulder the saddle often needs to be wider than many people think. I hope your saddle will fit once adjusted.


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## gottatrot

I rode another horse today. Dakota, the new "beginner-safe" horse at the barn has been having some problems. As I drove in, I saw the horse's owners were walking him around and he was very fidgety. They were waiting for the farrier to come, and he had been pawing when tied so they were walking him around instead. 

We began talking, and they told me how they had not found any bit Dakota went well in. They showed me videos of the horse at his previous owners when they went to look at him. He was walking calmly, going over obstacles, head down and relaxed. The rider put pressure on the bit and he responded easily. 

They said any bit they tried on the horse made him toss and shake his head. I opened Dakota's mouth and looked inside. His teeth seemed normal, but immediately I saw that his tongue had a huge groove in it where apparently it had almost been cut in half at some point and healed back up. It turns out the previous owner rode the horse in a correction bit, and I wondered if that was because Dakota was only happy with some serious tongue relief due to his previous injury. 








That was my first theory. I went in the tack room and looked to see if anyone had a bit that had tongue relief. There were about twenty bits hanging on the walls, but not a single one had a ported mouthpiece. Well, the other thing the owners told me was that another boarder had ridden Dakota in a Dr. Cook's bitless and he'd still tossed his head. My own horses don't like the squeezing action of the crossunder bitless, so that didn't necessarily tell me anything.

I took out my flower hackamore, set it to use as a simple sidepull and put it on Dakota, along with a bareback pad. When I cinched him up, he seemed a little tender about it. 

Hopping on, I knew Dakota was used to neck reining, but assumed he'd learned direct reining at some point. He turned mainly off my seat and legs, but was not smooth. He felt as though he had some angst inside, and was quite irritated and began jigging around the little sandy area in front of the barn. 

Well, he didn't toss his head, so that was one thing. But I talked soothingly to him and went around on a loose rein, but he wanted to jig away. Hmm...
Talking with the horse's owners, I said perhaps he wasn't a beginner horse after all. They discussed perhaps bringing him back to his former owner.

But....later after I came back from my own ride on Halla, I sat and talked with another boarder and heard some more to the story. For the first several days at our barn, Dakota had indeed been very mellow and relaxed. He'd even been down to the beach for an extended ride, and not had issues with head tossing, or with the bit used. Then suddenly, problems. I was told that the day after the beach ride, Dakota had not wanted to go out and had been turning to look at his belly. They had wondered if he had a mild colic. I asked the boarder who also feeds the horses if Dakota has been eating. She said he had not been eating well. This horse is quite fat, so does not appear to be one that normally would miss a meal, and our hay is quite green and good. 

Now I was getting a very different picture. We went and looked at Dakota and saw he'd been sweating quite a bit from his exertions outside, jigging along the field fence before coming in. We saw that he wasn't eating his hay, although he did not appear to be colicking. Everything now was saying to me, ulcers! Poor boy, very stoic. Stressed out moving to a new place, and then going to some pretty crazy places like the beach right away. Maybe a little gas and such from eating different foods, probably stopped him from eating enough to coat the stomach before exercise. Easy to over face a horse when he is a very calm and good boy. Perfect recipe to brew up a good case of ulcers. 

I sent an e-mail to the owners when I got home, hoping they might try medicating Dakota and giving him a chance before deciding his behaviors are too much. Many horses have behavioral issues with ulcers, after all. 

Halla and Nala had a gorgeous ride today. We went about six miles and the horses are beginning to really feel like they are getting in shape. We probably galloped about a half mile and lost the dog, who we picked up on the way back home. We went off the beach through a neighborhood, and then onto some trails through the dunes, and even jumped some logs. 

The mental stimulation was very good for both horses and the different places we've been going and advancing mental difficulty has meant there is a different feel to Halla's mind. Instead of needing release, it feels like she is waiting, saving some energy and not knowing what will be required. That's always a good place to have horses, but it's much easier to get there with some horses than others. With fit hotbloods, it's a very good thing to have them wondering if they'll be able to cope with the strenuousness of what you'll be asking of them. 

It's a very good thing for them to believe that their overflowing cup of energy could run out, and you might still be there asking for more.


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## gottatrot

Dakota saw the vet and the vet agreed his issues sounded like ulcers. His owners are giving him ulcer medicine, six weeks off and had a very good farrier come out to balance his hooves with corrective shoes; they are looking much better. I'm glad he is getting a chance. I really believe he will turn out to be a great horse.

My weekly rider for Amore has not been showing up lately, so she has not been getting more than a ride each week. At work last night a gal came up to me and said she'd been told I had horses. She wondered if I knew of anyone with a horse for lease. After quizzing her and finding out she might be a good rider, had lost her old horse awhile back, just moved into the area and was needing a ride, I offered for her to come and try Amore. She rides English, wears a helmet, used to jump, sounds perfect. My hopes are high because it is very helpful if I can ride Amore once or twice, Halla once or twice, and also do a ride with both of them together each week. 

So I took Amore out today to knock some cobwebs off, and we had a fractious ride. *Frac·tious*: _adjective
_wayward, unruly, uncontrollable, unmanageable, out of hand, obstreperous, difficult, headstrong, recalcitrant, intractable
"The horse was frac-tious, which put the rider at great risk for frac-tures." Also where the phrase "What the frac" comes from. "The horse was fracking all over the place." 

OK, bad humor getting fractious now. Sorry.

The main problem was of course, that Halla the Big Boss was missing. We had Nala, the twerpy TB, Satin, the doofy Arab, and Amore...
It was chaos. No one was in charge, and they decided they were a band of rogues. All was fine until we hit the beach. No one decided "let's trot now" and strode confidently forward. We said they could go faster and they sort of fiddled around and looked at each other, with Satin and Amore trotting ahead a bit. No one really picked up a canter, they just kind of pattered ahead until their feet found a sort of three-beatish gait. It felt fine for a moment.

Suddenly, Nala bolted from the rear. Amore heard the change in gait immediately, and startled forward. Then the windbreaker I'd foolishly put on made a sound somewhere between a zipper opening and a tarp being beaten to death. As Nala whipped past, stretched out as beautifully as American Pharaoh, Amore's eyes bulged out of her head and she bolted into a gallop. Not a lovely-day-on-the-beach-let's-run gallop, it was a zipper-tarp-monster-is-chasing-us-we're-going-to-die gallop. 

It's a strange thing. When Halla has lost her mind it's been a super rare thing and it frightens me. Amore has lost her mind on a regular basis since I first met her, and I always have this odd, twisted feeling that this is not safe and I need to regain some type of control, but at the same time I'm laughing hysterically inside. Halla goes crazy like a force of nature bearing down on you, a tornado too powerful to fathom. Amore goes crazy like a demented clown. A little scary, but also kind of funny.

Luckily, the sand near the dunes was very soft and deep today. I turned Amore toward it and her gallop began to thrash and churn and it slowed her down. As we slowed, the sound of my jacket lessened and I think she thought we'd left the demon behind. After I caught her, Nala noticed in the distance that the others were not following and her rider caught her too. Satin was feeling more directable, so stayed between the two and stopped when they did. 

The rest of the ride down the beach Amore was less panicked but still frightened. I stuffed the hood of my jacket down, which tamped down the noise quite a bit. She was still trying to rush off at every opportunity, spooked mightily to one side when we passed a log, and felt rather tense. 

Finally, just before we turned around, Satin's rider took her into the ocean. Amore watched them cautiously, until Satin was far enough away that the setting sun glaring off the water made the horse and rider no more than an oddly shaped shadow surrounded by brightness. At which point Satin turned around and came splashing back toward us and Amore was suddenly uncertain about what sort of creature had risen from the deep. At the sound of the splashes, she panicked and spun the opposite direction, fleeing away. 

Although I can't say I almost fell off during the ride, I was getting tired of wondering if I was almost going to fall off! As Nala's rider said in consternation when her horse spooked on a recent ride, "I almost lost a stirrup!" These things disturb riders that go about on spooky horses. 

So we went away from the water and walked in the deeper sand, at which point it was time to turn back home. Well, the weather looked different in another direction. Wind at our backs, setting sun on our faces, Amore grew very cheerful and relaxed. The jacket was no longer pursuing, and we did some lovely big trotting on a loose rein. Nala had chilled out too, but now Satin was wishing she could get quickly home to her dinner so her rider was unable to give her a loose rein. Well, each of us had part of a ride that was relaxed at least. 

I am crossing my fingers that Amore's new riding friend will somehow like her. But she does tend to behave much better (as does Nala) when Halla is along to keep everyone in line. We will try everyone out in a safe environment first, for sure.


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## gottatrot

*Proprioceptors and the Secure Seat*

*My thoughts on Proprioceptors and having a Secure Seat:*
In my late twenties/early thirties, I’d been riding for many years. Something that frustrated me was that the theories I’d read, practiced, and had drilled into me by riding instructors about getting a secure seat were not working for me. No matter how balanced I felt I was, no matter how deeply I sat or how relaxed and supple my body was, my horse kept spooking and getting me off. A split second of inattention and there I was, on the ground. Even when I felt my horse tense, and knew which direction she was heading, it seemed impossible to react quickly enough to keep my balance. 

One day I read a quote from George Morris, “Your security is in your lower leg.” What did that mean? I puzzled over it. Watching video of cross country riders, I noticed how important they seemed to feel their lower leg was. It was always on the horse. Who does crazier stunts than these riders?




 
Learning this concept turned my riding around completely. I went from hoping I could stay on spooking horses to knowing I would unless the horse rolled over underneath me. 

Why this concept works is because of proprioceptors. Proprioceptors are involved in reflex actions that maintain muscle tone. They determine position of your limbs by detecting the degree of muscle relaxation, stretch of tendons and movement of ligaments. So say you are sitting on a chair. No matter how many times someone comes and pulls the chair out from underneath you, no matter how well you balance on the chair, your proprioceptors cannot help you out very much. You’re still going to fall down. 

Now say you are walking down the sidewalk and you trip over something. Your proprioceptor reflexes will trigger and you will almost always catch yourself. Why is that? Because your body, walking, has given the information to your receptors in the nervous system about where your limbs are supposed to be in space and how to adjust everything to get you back to “standing.” 

That is why your security is in your lower leg. If you have your weight going down your leg (distributing the pressure down the horse’s side so your legs don’t swing forward, back or out), the body interprets the pressure and balance of your body down that leg and into your foot as “standing.” There does not have to be much pressure in your foot, and it doesn’t matter which part of your foot is used, as long as the body interprets that you are standing on the ground. That being the case, every reflex in your body will fight for you to keep you standing no matter what your horse does. If your horse darts left, the body will perceive it as if the ground shifted left and your reflexes (much faster than thought) will adjust the length of your muscles and limbs to accommodate. 

This concept is also why people can ski downhill at incredibly high rates of speed. This could not be accomplished if they were balancing on their butts versus standing on their feet.
The balance of our body is the same whether you are skiing or running on a horse. You can see in this little graphic some examples of how to balance with a long stirrup, or a short one. We unbalance in these same ways when riding, too. The key is the line of gravity going down through the lower leg into the foot, and at least a slight degree of bend in the hip and leg joints to activate the proprioceptors.








This is how you can stay on a horse that spooks three feet to one side, leaps and spins around or bolts suddenly forward. For me it was survival. Many horses have a type of spook they like to do. For instance, Nala likes to leap up and turn to the side, usually left. Amore never could decide on a certain spook she preferred. She spun circles, dropped and veered, lifted and spun, leaped to one side, turned her body into a banana and then skittered sideways. She also would gallop two strides and stop, do a hop, hop in place, or sometimes back up two steps and then flip around. All of those, obviously after she learned to calm down enough to not just buck violently. 

A person can use saddle horns and other devices to help stay in the saddle. That helps as much as holding on to the chair helps you stay on when someone pulls it out from underneath you. Meaning, it all depends on the force involved. I’ve found my proprioceptors work much faster than I can grab onto something. 

Since I've learned this concept, I've many times had people tell me they are amazed I am staying on a horse, or that I have a good seat. That is not the case, instead I have simply learned to use my body's built-in reflexes. My hope is that more people can learn this concept so they don't have to worry about horses spooking and can enjoy their ride instead.


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## Zexious

^Very interesting post!
I'm looking forward to reading more from you in the future <3


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## bsms

Hmmm...this is me riding Mia, as we did it for several years of spooks. I'm not saying I'm PROUD of these, but this was the reality a few years ago:











This one is a blow-up, of a moment when Mia was seriously considering blowing up due to an enormous moving van about 200 feet in front of us. This was how I stayed on when I expected things to go bad fast:










If I had time, my hand on the horn DID help. No time to reach for it, but I started doing a lot of one handed riding, and resting my spare hand on my thigh in normal western fashion made me feel off balance. So I would rest it on the horn, and my hand could tighten just as fast as my legs could. But the hardest spooks seem to come when I was riding two handed, and I stayed on in spins violent enough to send my saddle on to her side.

In most cases, I had my heels well forward of my center of gravity. My theory at the time was drawn from the cowboys of the Old West, who needed to stay on at almost any cost when the unexpected happened - and the almost universal position they used:










It isn't so far from the standard cutting horse position:



















With time, I've changed my approach. My heels have drifted back. I honestly do not think my heels coming back has harmed me any for staying on, but I'm not sure it has helped. I stayed on thru a lot of sideways jumps and spins with my heels ahead of the rest of me.

I do think having heels further back has helped for jumps forward. Mia rarely jumped forward. Almost always sideways. Bandit sometimes gives a leap forward, without bolting. Just a leap forward (a very level leap) and then maybe 1-2 more strides. But heels under me has helped with that, as has sheepskin that keeps me from sliding across the saddle.

This advice on how to sit down in a saddle, which I encountered a couple of years ago, still seems good to me (click to enlarge for easier reading):










"The above manner of taking the seat will....automatically force the heels down, glue the calves of the legs to the horse, put the thighs flat against the saddle skirts, the crotch deep in the center of the saddle, and the buttocks well to the rear..."

In jumping an obstacle, the only security that CAN come is from the lower leg. The seat is, after all, out of the saddle.

Littauer wrote:
."9) At the walk, trot and canter, when the horse behaves, use the grip which merely consists of a permanent, effortless contact between the saddle and the lower thighs, inner surfaces of the knees, and upper calves.

10) During the gallop or jumping, or when the horse misbehaves, increase the frictional grip with these three parts of the leg.

11) For better gripping and in order to bring the upper calf in contact with the saddle:- a) keep your toes open about 30 degrees...The three hinges ...are completely free in their motions, just as free as the ball bearings in some highly sensitive and well greased machine...If anything were to happen, the rider in a split second would have a very strong position by stiffening from the waist down-thighs, knees, calves will then grip strongly- but while just walking quietly the rider relies mostly on his balance. To see whether he is really in balance with the horse, the rider should try the following experiment; without increase in inclination in his torso and without any lurching up or forward he rises slightly in his stirrups and stays up while the horse walks, without toppling forward or collapsing backwards. The rider's weight is then supported by the stirrups, and this attitude is given stability by the tension in the three springs...This incidentally, is also the rider's position during the upward beat of the posting trot and at the gallop..." - Common Sense Horsemanship​.
I'm an oddball - a western rider whose riding has been heavily influenced by Littauer and Chamberlin. I do find with a western saddle, if I mount like Chamberlin says and ride a long-legged version of what Littauer says, my rump is light in the saddle for anything other than a slow walk, and most of my weight is carried in my thighs.

The style used by the old cowboys also put much of the weight into the thigh. People looking at it think it is heavy in the butt, but when I do it, my thighs are taunt and carry much of my weight. If much of my weight is carried in my THIGHS, then the main point of contact is BELOW the horse's spine. And that is ideal for a horse who spins or jumps sideways. Instead of resting my weight on top of the horse, it is resting wrapped around the horse.

The result now looks more like these (Bandit doesn't have Mia's looks, but he sure has a more stable mind!):


















It is hard to guess how secure my lower leg is. The thickness of the stirrup straps on a western saddle (3" with mine) tends to mask any muscular insecurity. The stirrups stay pretty stable on a western saddle.

I'm not saying I disagree. I don't know. I am pretty certain that carrying weight in the thighs and flowing down into the stirrups makes it easier to stay on than resting on top of the horse. Bandit doesn't spin nearly as often nor as violently as Mia, so my ability to experiment largely traveled north with her. But when my weight is in my thighs and stirrups, it is beside the horse. When it is in my butt, it is on top of my horse. And I prefer to ride beside my horse instead of on top of him.

Oddly enough, a cutting horse trainer named Larry Trocha recommends a position that looks almost identical to what Harry Chamberlin (US Cavalry & polo player) recommended. He says it makes it easier to stay on a cutting horse than the traditional cutting horse position. It seems to me cutters intentionally ride the equivalent of spooking horses:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


>


Other than this one, the photos show the rider using their proprioceptors. Both these other guys would most likely land on their feet if the horse dropped out from underneath them.



















> With time, I've changed my approach. My heels have drifted back. I honestly do not think my heels coming back has harmed me any for staying on, but I'm not sure it has helped. I stayed on thru a lot of sideways jumps and spins with my heels ahead of the rest of me.
> 
> I do think having heels further back has helped for jumps forward. Mia rarely jumped forward. Almost always sideways. Bandit sometimes gives a leap forward, without bolting. Just a leap forward (a very level leap) and then maybe 1-2 more strides. But heels under me has helped with that, as has sheepskin that keeps me from sliding across the saddle.


I don't believe the important thing is having your heels and feet forward or back. I do believe it is important to have balance and weight over your legs, as Littaur describes. That's with a long stirrup, short stirrup, and also with the leg forward or back. The important factor is giving your neurological system a feel for where the ground is, rather than just relying on your inner ear balance, your vision, and other cues. I believe this is best achieved by the core balance of your body over your feet, along with at least a slight bend in your joints. 



> It is hard to guess how secure my lower leg is. The thickness of the stirrup straps on a western saddle (3" with mine) tends to mask any muscular insecurity. The stirrups stay pretty stable on a western saddle.


And I don't think it's related to muscular strength. I quite like how Littaur describes it, as friction increasing with speed. 

In the videos of cutting horses, the riders were absolutely using weight in their feet to activate their proprioceptors. In my experience, western saddle or not, with changes of direction at those speeds, if you did not have some weight in your stirrups and an orientation of your balance over them to tell your body where "ground" is, the stirrups would not be staying on their feet. Their upper bodies would be jerked around in all directions regardless of whether they held on or not.



> Littauer wrote:
> ."9) At the walk, trot and canter, when the horse behaves, use the grip which merely consists of a permanent, effortless contact between the saddle and the lower thighs, inner surfaces of the knees, and upper calves.
> 
> 10) During the gallop or jumping, or when the horse misbehaves, increase the frictional grip with these three parts of the leg.​



Absolutely agree. 



> 11) For better gripping and in order to bring the upper calf in contact with the saddle:- a) keep your toes open about 30 degrees...


This part I disagree with, only because I don't believe you can put a "degree" on it. It is based on the rider's anatomy. Someone with large or small thighs, tight or loose hips will find the perfect angle to be completely different than someone else's. I believe this angle must be anatomically correct for the rider. What is important is that when you look down your thigh, knee and toes are all pointing in the same direction for good mechanics.



> The three hinges ...are completely free in their motions, just as free as the ball bearings in some highly sensitive and well greased machine...If anything were to happen, the rider in a split second would have a very strong position by stiffening from the waist down-thighs, knees, calves will then grip strongly- but while just walking quietly the rider relies mostly on his balance. To see whether he is really in balance with the horse, the rider should try the following experiment; without increase in inclination in his torso and without any lurching up or forward he rises slightly in his stirrups and stays up while the horse walks, without toppling forward or collapsing backwards. The rider's weight is then supported by the stirrups, and this attitude is given stability by the tension in the three springs...This incidentally, is also the rider's position during the upward beat of the posting trot and at the gallop..." - Common Sense Horsemanship


Agree very much.​


> .
> I'm an oddball - a western rider whose riding has been heavily influenced by Littauer and Chamberlin. I do find with a western saddle, if I mount like Chamberlin says and ride a long-legged version of what Littauer says, my rump is light in the saddle for anything other than a slow walk, and most of my weight is carried in my thighs.


Yes, that is a "secure seat" in my book. 

Here's a better illustration relating to skiing than the other one on the previous post:








You could put these people on a horse and label their positions as 1-4 walking, trotting or cantering, galloping, and riding a racehorse.
(Disclaimer: not a good skier myself, just find their positions at speed interestingly relative to horseback riding).


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## tinyliny

interesting you should bring up skiing as an analogy for riding. it is QUITE similar.

I realized, some years back, how very similar when I focussed on letting the skis carve under me, while my upper body stayed vertical, while going through the moguls.

now, I am a very mediocre skier, and a mediocre rider, but like bsms, I enjoy THINKING about riding, and seeing what I can do to learn and improve.

and, while skiing some 'bumps, I realized that if I brought my legs UP to me more than my body sinking down (in the up/down part of the moguls) , I stayed flat. 

riding is often the same. with the power of your core, you can bring the horse UP to you. so, your upper body is solid, steady, strong, and the lower body is flexing and allowing the skis to come up to the upper body, when the terrain demands it.

if you've ever skied bumps, you will viscerally know what I am talking about. your skis can go all over the place, but your upper body belongs to YOU!


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## bsms

Here are some links to Wiki articles that help explain things for those of us who have never heard of proprioceptors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Both articles are fairly long, but have a lot to do with what takes place in learning to ride. The adaptions the body makes are pretty interesting. I agree with the post above except for the part of "_if you did not have some weight in your stirrups and an orientation of your balance over them to tell your body where "ground" is, the stirrups would not be staying on their feet_".

The reason I disagree is because it doesn't match what I did while staying on Mia thru a lot of spins and sideways jumps. Chamberlin (and to a lesser degree Littauer) taught using the "home" position for the stirrup, with the ball of the foot in front of the stirrup. English stirrups prior to 1950(?) didn't use rubber pads. I tried riding without rubber pads, with leather soled shoes, and the combination is slick. So that was in someways an adaption based on the gear they used.

But it is also very common in western riding. Probably more common than not. It will usually keep the stirrup on the foot thru some violent maneuvers. If the stirrup fits and the shoe/boot has a good heel, it should not result in a person being caught in the stirrups, but most riding should not cause a rider to lose them.

This picture is not something I'm proud of, but it is how I rode Mia during most of the years we had together. It has taken a year with calmer Bandit for me to give it up because my body had learned that it worked, and I was afraid to make changes to my position that might result in my coming off:


















My weight was carried mostly in my thighs, but the stirrups themselves were the farthest point forward possible.

However, I also had weight in the stirrups. Mia's favorite startle was the OMG Crouch, with her back dropping maybe 6" followed immediately by a hard 180 - hard enough to bruise my thigh against the poley. My feet were forward in large part to brace me against the sudden stop & drop, which she would do without warning.

Based on your comments, gottatrot, and the Wiki articles, it is plausible that having weight in the stirrups did activate the proprioceptors through the entire length of the leg.

"_Using Sherrington's system, physiologists and anatomists search for specialised nerve endings that transmit mechanical data on joint capsule, tendon and muscle tension...which play a large role in proprioception. Primary endings of muscle spindles "respond to the size of a muscle length change and its speed" and "contribute both to the sense of limb position and movement". Secondary endings of muscle spindles detect changes in muscle length, and thus supply information regarding only the sense of position. Essentially, muscle spindles are stretch receptors...._" - first link

_""Findings related to the retention of learned motor skills have been continuously replicated in studies, suggesting that through subsequent practice, motor learning is stored in the brain as memory. This is why performing skills such as riding a bike or driving a car are effortlessly and 'subconsciously' executed, even if someone had not performed these skills in a long period of time.

When first learning a motor task, movement is often slow, stiff and easily disrupted without attention. With practice, execution of motor task becomes smoother, there is a decrease in limb stiffness, and muscle activity necessary to the task is performed without conscious effort.

The neuroanatomy of memory is widespread throughout the brain; however, the pathways important to motor memory are separate from the medial temporal lobe pathways associated with declarative memory. As with declarative memory, motor memory is theorized to have two stages: a short-term memory encoding stage, which is fragile and susceptible to damage, and a long-term memory consolidation stage, which is more stable."_ - link on muscle memory

It could be that activating the muscles all along the leg results in their giving the brain more data to work with in developing muscle memory.

OTOH, there was a guy who starred in some old westerns - "Iron Horse" and "Wells Fargo". He played and trained polo horses prior to WW2. During WW2, he was in tanks, standing in the hatch. In North Africa, his tank was hit. The explosion blew him out of the tank, and killed all those inside. His legs were badly injured.

For stunt work, he did things backwards from most TV stars. He said he could ride the horses without hesitation, because he didn't need his legs to ride well. But he needed a stunt double for anything requiring him to run, because his legs couldn't handle much more than a walk. But on a horse? He had no worries.

Could it be that we start off learning needing to activate the proprioceptors through the entire length of the leg, either by using weight in the stirrups or thru leg position? I'm a sample size of one, and it could be I was successful staying on in spite of my leg position, rather than because of it. And after riding a few years in my western saddle, I now realize my Australian one tends to tilt down toward the front, so it could be that what worked for me did so as an adaptation to the saddle I was using.

But if proprioceptors and muscle memory are a critical part of staying on in a spook, then actively using those muscles, instead of having "draped, wet towels" for legs, might be a key to quickly learning to stay on. Many riding instructors learn to ride as kids. I find they tend to assume abilities my body doesn't possess - maybe because they learned those abilities while young, and thus were not aware they were learning them?

I want to add that I"m not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand. By chance, your post came a few days after I re-read Littauer's "Development of Modern Riding", available for $0.01 plus shipping from US Amazon. He discusses how dressage developed and why it works for collected motion. He also discusses the forward seat, and how it works for uncollected motion. He even pointed out that Chamberlin didn't like working his horses in tight circles and turns, because he felt it was counter productive to the type of forward, extended movement he wanted.

But I realized last Sunday I didn't fall into either of those camps. I don't want a collected horse, dancing. I don't want an extended horse, floating across the ground. For where I ride, I need a horse who is the equine equivalent of a hiker carrying a backpack. And I need to be able to stay on when, not if, the horse spooks. For the first time, I realized why I am primarily a western rider. A cattle drive was about hiking, not sports. And the horses were often young and given to spooking, and there were gopher holes that could break their legs at a gallop.

The almost universal approach used by them was adapted for what they did - lots of hiking, and short bursts of speed using a western saddle with a tall cantle (often 6" back then):




















All pictures from a great website:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

They did have weight in the stirrups and used their legs, but not in the style normally taught now. An HF poster described it this way:



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> 
> *The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times*.
> 
> The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.
> 
> *The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.*
> 
> The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.
> 
> We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.
> 
> When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.
> 
> If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.
> 
> The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.
> My horse would accept being ridden English or Western...


 - bold print mine

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/page4/#post942370

In essence, what Barry was taught was using the stirrups similar to someone walking - which would be in line with what gottatrot wrote, if I understood her correctly.

Again, I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand what matters to me and to those who sometimes come out and ride with me, often with little experience - how does one ride most safely and efficiently on pavement and in the desert? If any horse will not spook, it would be little Cowboy - but I don't think any horse is spook-free.

And how one can best stay on a spooky horse is something a lot of folks on HF could use. How many threads are there where someone has been hurt in a fall, wants to keep riding, but is scared of being hurt again? *That was me!* So - what actually WORKS?

That was something I've been puzzling over for years, and why I found gottatrot's post so interesting. I know when I took lessons, none of it was directed to what I really wanted to know - how do I keep the horse between me and the ground, even when the horse freaks out? If someone lacks confidence on a horse, isn't that the root problem - fear of coming off?

If, instead of telling someone to ACT confident, we could give them a reason to BE confident, wouldn't that be pretty valuable? And gottatrot's post put things in a light I had not seen them in before...


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I agree with the post above except for the part of "_if you did not have some weight in your stirrups and an orientation of your balance over them to tell your body where "ground" is, the stirrups would not be staying on their feet_".


I base this only on my own experiences of what has caused me to lose my stirrups, both western and english. Having started out western, I did not worry much about losing stirrups due to the solid and steady fenders on the saddles. When I started riding Amore, it was in a western saddle. That's when I found out she could blow the stirrups off my feet with her centrifugal forces. But then I never rode with my stirrups _all_ the way "home," so that could make a difference too. 
It was quite a transition going to english with her, requiring some bravery or stupidity on my part since I was coming off so often. But my reasoning was that what was the difference if she could get me off in a western saddle frequently anyway? 

I too rode Halla with my feet farther forward when I first started on her. That was because she could stop so suddenly even from a walk that her ear was inside my nose on more than one occasion. Thankfully, that reaction is so rare now that I use a normal position. But I believe in adapting our position to different horses, and while totally defensive and stiff is not good, what feels natural and balanced on each horse can be quite different.

When I first began thinking of and reading about proprioceptors, it was to try to understand why certain things worked to stay on a horse and others did not. Learning about this has been survival for me, since a person cannot afford to come off horses as often as I did a few years ago. It was a struggle for me, wanting to keep trying and riding these horses but wondering if I could find the skills to do so. 


bsms said:


> ...He said he could ride the horses without hesitation, because he didn't need his legs to ride well. But he needed a stunt double for anything requiring him to run, because his legs couldn't handle much more than a walk. But on a horse? He had no worries.
> ...Could it be that we start off learning needing to activate the proprioceptors through the entire length of the leg, either by using weight in the stirrups or thru leg position?
> ...But if proprioceptors and muscle memory are a critical part of staying on in a spook, then actively using those muscles, instead of having "draped, wet towels" for legs, might be a key to quickly learning to stay on.


Now this thinking is fascinating. It hadn't registered with me that memory could be a component of proprioception. In which case, the muscle spindles and nervous system may not have to always react on a case by case basis, but may instead use memory as a short cut. So if a person learned to ride very well when they had legs, their neurological system could still use the memory of their past proprioceptors and how they worked to give them balance on a horse even without legs. It is a fact that our nervous system will behave as though a limb is still there when it is missing, and amputees can feel pain or itching in their missing limbs as real as if they were still attached. Our brains are amazing, and even the force and velocity and direction of where a leg "would" have traveled in a certain situation could inform the body about the location of the ground and how to balance. 


bsms said:


> Again, I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand what matters to me and to those who sometimes come out and ride with me, often with little experience - how does one ride most safely and efficiently on pavement and in the desert? If any horse will not spook, it would be little Cowboy - but I don't think any horse is spook-free.
> 
> And how one can best stay on a spooky horse is something a lot of folks on HF could use. How many threads are there where someone has been hurt in a fall, wants to keep riding, but is scared of being hurt again? *That was me!* So - what actually WORKS?
> 
> That was something I've been puzzling over for years, and why I found gottatrot's post so interesting. I know when I took lessons, none of it was directed to what I really wanted to know - how do I keep the horse between me and the ground, even when the horse freaks out? If someone lacks confidence on a horse, isn't that the root problem - fear of coming off?


Exactly. With my excellent little mare, Amore, I tried every option I could. I exposed her to everything...new places, trailered her out, took her to horse shows, big functions. I bought books on bomb proofing and spent many hours conditioning her to everything under the sun. Flags, soda cans, garbage cans, tarps, etc. etc. I worked on my confidence, my breathing, my relaxation, my seat. NOTHING kept her from spooking. NOTHING kept me from falling off. I'd think I'd learned some new way of anticipating which way she was heading, or that I could grab the horn or grab strap fast enough. Nope. 14.2 hands, she moves faster than a person can think or react. 

Which is why I want to share this concept, because after five years of falling off my mare, I began using my proprioceptors and within a couple of months I began finding myself amazingly still in the saddle after the most insane moves. Once I was cantering on one side of a two lane road. I blinked my eyes and felt a swoosh, and when I opened them I was cantering on the other side of the road. I began finding myself trotting in one direction on a trail, seeing the flash of a deer's white tail and then finding myself cantering in the opposite direction down the trail. I went from falling off about 50% of the hard spooks to falling off less than 1% of them. Several times when I didn't stay on the horse, the process I began on my horse of "knowing where the ground is" meant I found myself hitting the ground with my feet because my feet had figured out where the ground was. 
And I want to point out this had nothing to do with skill or practice at all. It is a reflex you take advantage of. Before this point I had ridden for many years, on many horses, in all kinds of saddles and bareback. It wasn't like I suddenly found balance. Instead, it was that I finally taught my body how to engage the proprioceptors to help me react faster than thought and reorient my body while keeping my feet underneath me. When a horse moves as fast as a striking snake, you have to be able to move as fast as your hand comes off a hot stove. That can only be done through reflexes, through the use of your neurological system rather than your conscious thought.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> ...riding is often the same. with the power of your core, you can bring the horse UP to you. so, your upper body is solid, steady, strong, and the lower body is flexing and allowing the skis to come up to the upper body, when the terrain demands it.
> 
> if you've ever skied bumps, you will viscerally know what I am talking about. *your skis can go all over the place, but your upper body belongs to YOU!*


Yes, that is something I appreciate now that I've learned to use two-pointing. If a horse starts getting jumpy, bumpy or bucking you can just lift up off the saddle and let your lower body absorb the action while your upper body belongs to you. :wink:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Gottatrot, what you are speaking of is also called Kinesthesia. It is developed by most elite athletes and Kinesthetic learners to varying degrees as a matter of movement. In practical application it goes beyond internal body awareness into action including timing, control and spacial awareness. In riding it is what some generally call feel. 

As an example I was working with a gal on a figure skating spin called a flying camel. Her joints were all in the right position, but because she was not tensing and releasing the muscles that supported those joints in the right order at the right time, her spin had no momentum her muscles were interfering with movement.

I was able to touch her in a certain spot between her shoulder blades and ask her to contract just those muscles without contracting anything else in her core, instruct her as to what point in the movement to contract them, followed by a contraction of the upper abdominals and because she had a well developed sense of Proprioception she could do that. She could tell me what she was doing wrong, but couldn’t figure out the specifics of how to fix it so that it became habit.

Proprioception alone was not enough she also had to learn how to counteract her mistakes. In ten minutes she had gotten the sequence and timing down, developed some new muscle memory and had momentum in her spin. Our key phrase for that session was “can you feel it?”; Kinesthesia . It was one of those times when having an outside eye really helped.

Another important ancillary aspect of Kinesthesia is spacial awareness. Knowing where everyone and everything is at all times, within relation to one’s self.

A study was done back in the late 80’s or early 90's (its been a while so I have forgotten) where they took Wayne Gretzkey, Michael Jordan and a soccer player who I don’t remember his name now and ran them through a series of measured tests. They were selected because they were so far and above all others in their sport at the time, researchers wanted to know what special ability they possessed that allowed them to be in a category of their own within the elite athlete genre. 

The one aspect all of them shared far and beyond every other elite athlete they had tested, was their ability to without looking, tell you almost to the inch, how far away every player and every object was from any specific part of their body at any time. They could also tell you what the others were doing and in the case of Gretzkey, what foot they were on, where the other person's hands were etc. and he made unconscious adjustments to his own micro movements within that context. It was almost akin to having eyes in the backs of their heads.

How all of this equates to improving one’s riding: The ability to be aware of your own positions within yourself is a first step. Then comes the ability to control individual muscle groups, joints, limbs accurately and in a proper sequence, with the correct timing in respect to movement. This becomes more difficult as we age.

Then the ability to develop the correct muscle memory so that everything unconsciously is in proper position at all times (developing good habits). Governing all of this, as to what is “proper” at any given time, is the development of an unconscious spacial awareness, your body in relation to all things at all times; to the arena, to an obstacle, to the saddle, to the horse’s barrel, to the ground, his head to your hands, what are his/her ears doing, to other riders, which foot the horse is on, are the horse's muscles relaxed or tense and integrating all of this information to our own sense of Proprioception (including balance) and then not only understanding how adjustments need to be made, but actually being able to physically accomplish them. It is almost like integrating our Proprioception with the horse's. 

The human brain is indeed a wonderful and adaptive organ with unbelievable potential.


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## bsms

Here is a long section from Wiki's article on muscle memory:
._"Evidence has shown that increases in strength occur well before muscle hypertrophy, and decreases in strength due to detraining or ceasing to repeat the exercise over an extended period of time precede muscle atrophy. To be specific, strength training enhances motor neuron excitability and induces synaptogenesis, both of which would help in enhancing communication between the nervous system and the muscles themselves.

However, neuromuscular efficacy is not altered within a two-week time period following cessation of the muscle usage; instead, it is merely the neuron's ability to excite the muscle that declines in correlation with the muscle's decrease in strength. This confirms that muscle strength is first influenced by the inner neural circuitry, rather than by external physiological changes in the muscle size.

Previously untrained muscles acquire newly formed nuclei by fusion of satellite cells preceding the hypertrophy. Subsequent detraining leads to atrophy but no loss of myo-nuclei. The elevated number of nuclei in muscle fibers that had experienced a hypertrophic episode would provide a mechanism for muscle memory, explaining the long-lasting effects of training and the ease with which previously trained individuals are more easily retrained...

...Reorganization of motor maps within the cortex are not altered in either strength or endurance training. However, within the motor cortex, endurance induces angiogenesis [the physiological process through which new blood vessels form from pre-existing vessels] within as little as three weeks to increase blood flow to the involved regions. In addition, neurotropic factors within the motor cortex are upregulated in response to endurance training to promote neural survival...

... In addition, studying mice while they are learning a new complex reaching task, has found that "motor learning leads to rapid formation of dendritic spines (spinogenesis) in the motor cortex contralateral to the reaching forelimb"...

...Whether strength or endurance related, it is plausible that the majority of motor movements would require a skilled moving task of some form, whether it be maintaining proper form when paddling a canoe, or bench pressing a heavier weight. Endurance training assists the formation of these new neural representations within the motor cortex by up regulating neurotropic factors that could enhance the survival of the newer neural maps formed due to the skilled movement training. Strength training results are seen in the spinal cord well before any physiological muscular adaptation is established through muscle hypertrophy or atrophy. The results of endurance and strength training, and skilled reaching, therefore, combine to help each other maximize performance output."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
_​.
Applied to riding, strength training of the legs would seem to require some weight in the stirrups, or at least active use of the muscles in the leg, with the more leg being used, the more leg "learning". Endurance would be the low intensity use done for thousands of repetitions, such as our riding relaxed for a few hours without "working" at riding.
._"The initiation of proprioception is the activation of a proprioreceptor *in the periphery*. The proprioceptive sense is believed to be composed of information from sensory neurons located in the inner ear (motion and orientation) and in the stretch receptors located in the muscles and the joint-supporting ligaments (stance). There are specific nerve receptors for this form of perception termed "proprioreceptors," just as there are specific receptors for pressure, light, temperature, sound, and other sensory experiences..._

_ ...Standing on a wobble board or balance board is often used to retrain or increase proprioception abilities, particularly as physical therapy for ankle or knee injuries. Slacklining is another method to increase proprioception. Standing on one leg (stork standing) and various other body-position challenges are also used in such disciplines as Yoga, Wing Chun and T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Several studies have shown that the efficacy of these types of training is increased by closing the eyes, because the eyes give invaluable feedback to establishing the moment-to-moment information of balance."_

_







_​
_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception_​_.
"Thus, the rider stimulates, exercises and teaches the parts of the body that implement the act of balancing (toes, soles, ankles, knees, hips, shoulders, arms and neck) and the parts of the body and brain that create the sense of balance and that engineer the implementation of the act of balancing (inner ears, cerebellum, proprioceptors and eyes)."_

_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_board_​.
In riding, it seems to me the closest thing to a "wobble board" is riding two point. I've had riders from the modern school of jumping tell me that two point doesn't involve weight in the stirrups, which would shock both Littauer and Chamberlin, who described it as "standing in the stirrups". Littauer, late in his life, discouraged riding without stirrups because it created bad habit patterns for the riding he taught, which was stirrup-centric. Gen Patton gave a good example of what the US Cavalry taught:








​ 
They taught you should NOT grip with the knee, except in an emergency.
."_7) ...When my head was up and my chest open my hollowed loins started pressing the pelvis forward wedging it further into the saddle. With an alert position of the torso I found it easy to balance myself and to remain united with the horse in motion. After I was able to execute the above points I found myself about half standing in the stirrups with a very springy body..._

_ 8)... I felt that the benefits of these springs could be lost by: a) greatly decreasing the weight in the stirrups. Without using the stirrups the tension in those springs was completely gone. b) If I pinched the saddle strongly with my knees the flow of weight into the stirrups was partially cut off._" - Common Sense Horsemanship​.
If someone has problems with a spooking horse, or needs to rebuild their confidence after coming off of one, then it seems to me two very good exercises would be: 

A) Lot of "standing in the stirrups" (two point). From what Wiki says, 3-4 weeks spent regularly standing in the stirrups and balancing at a walk (and later a trot and canter) would engage the muscles in both strength and endurance and build the paths of communication and receptors. I am absolutely certain it is the best way to feel the balance of your horse, and if you worry about your horse falling (and I did and do), then lots of two point is the best way I know of to get yourself in synch with the horse's balance. That gives her the best chance of keeping her feet.

I tend to practice it doing tight turns around cones as well as going straight, because it forces me to adjust my balance point as the horse adjusts hers (his).

If someone wobbles a lot in two point, then staying on in a hard spook is unlikely.

B) I may buy a "wobble board" or "balance board". Think of it as indoor skiing. It looks like it would be a great way to disconnect your lower body from the upper body, and teach your lower body to compensate for unexpected movement - particularly sideways - of the legs. It could be done while steadying oneself against a wall (yes, I have no balance worth speaking of) and could be done in the evenings, when work is finished but riding isn't a possibility. It also looks like a good way to put myself in a hospital, so I may need to think this one over...:wink:...I could see myself doing more harm than good at my age! But some of the reviews on Amazon suggest doing it while keeping a hand on a desk, which in my case might require TWO hands.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

BSMS

If you are looking into a wobble board I would suggest one like this

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP....e6f47co0&w=300&h=237&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0 

Instead of the one in your picture because the one above will also train you to forward and backward balance as well as side to side. It is also less likely to put you in the hospital


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## bsms

^^ Thanks. On order. Will see if it helps. Or hurts. Or both...:think:


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## tinyliny

A human's balance drops off RADICALLY after 50. I used to be able to stand easily on one leg with eyes closed for some seconds, . . now? not at all. can't hardly do it with eyes open.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> _ ... I felt that the benefits of these springs could be lost by: a) greatly decreasing the weight in the stirrups. Without using the stirrups the tension in those springs was completely gone. b) If I pinched the saddle strongly with my knees the flow of weight into the stirrups was partially cut off._" - Common Sense Horsemanship​ ...If someone wobbles a lot in two point, then staying on in a hard spook is unlikely.


I think I would call myself a "stirrup-centric" rider also. Most of the time I don't use my weight in them heavily, but there is always at least a smidge of pressure in my feet. I do ride bareback sometimes, but I believe the two pointing I do has taught me to lift my weight off the horse when going faster bareback too. 

Thank you for the contributions, these posts have enhanced my learning about proprioceptors and having a secure "seat." 

The wobble board is an interesting idea. It reminds me of when we played games on a Wii my nephews had. All of the kids and adults, including my husband's grandma were better than me at the games involving hitting tennis balls or throwing things like bowling. There was one game I was much better at than everyone else, and it involved managing foot pressure and balance on a board and skiing downhill, going around moguls. 
Also one time we went to a Dr. Scholl's "foot pressure" tester and you were supposed to try putting your weight evenly on both feet. My husband couldn't get the pressure scan to look even but mine was perfect. I knew these were things I learned from riding.


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## Bondre

Interesting discussion. Imust admit that I had never thought about any of this before; I think I'm so accustomed to riding with weight in the stirrups that I don't even think about it. When things are going awry and I can tell the horse might bounce - or go sideways - without warning, I always shove the weight down into my heels as a reflex reaction. If I can feel my weight down through my legs to the ball of my foot I feel more secure. On reading these posts, I understand more about why I do this. 

Funny you mention about the foot pressure tester. I got a stone bruise last spring (yes, really! I bruised my heel on a peaked stone and it left me lame for weeks :shock: - so now I know how they feel if they get a stone bruise) and went to see about a special in-sole (rather like a hoof pad with relief for P3 :rofl. I had to walk over a pressure sensitive mat and the girl was shocked about the force of impact from the ball of my foot when I was strolling casually across her little mat. 

"Doesn't it hurt?" she asked.
- Well no, if it hurt me to walk like that (stone bruise aside) I wouldn't -
I was thinking that if I was walking with purpose to actually go somewhere the forces of impact would be considerably greater....

Don't know if my powerful footfall is connected with my early years of riding, or if maybe it helps me to stay steady in the saddle, but whatever - it seems that my way of walking is not very typical. I jar too much - not floaty enough? - could be because I like to feel myself well connected to the ground?


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## gottatrot

My "kindred spirit" friends in the horse world drove the couple hours to my place for a visit and brought the six mini horses along for a drive. Doing something this fun makes you want to share, so I invited two of my horse/riding friends from the barn to come and try driving and meet the minis. My three visiting friends brought another friend along, so we had 7 girls for 6 horse carts.

I drove Star first, who is my absolute favorite mini. She's a little black mare, the other minis are geldings, and of course I'm a mare person. But she looks to me just like "Little Black" in the Walter Farley stories, and is full of mischief and fire and is everything a little horse should be. 

I had her in a parade several years ago, and we got separated from the other horses due to the people in the crowd. We were right at the most heavily populated part of the parade, with hundreds of spectators surrounding us. Suddenly she bolted, flat out galloping down the street about a block to get to the other horses. The crowd cheered loudly so I waved and smiled, pretending like I'd meant to show off. 

Rocky, a liver chestnut is the oldest mini, about 24. He and Star (18) were part of a petting farm and were foundered due to being fed grain by the visitors. Since I lived down in that area at the time, my friends and I tried educating the owners and took on the hoof care. We rehabbed and began exercising the horses, then taking them back to my friend's farm during the winter when there were less tourists. 

Eventually the owners of the petting farm listened to our advice that horses were not the best petting farm animal, especially since we'd been paying for hoof care, boots, repairing harnesses and carts, worming and teeth floating. They let us keep the horses for good.

We entered the minis in the local parade in the summer, and had so much fun driving them that our other friend decided to get a mini too. Then she decided that mini needed a companion, so she ended up with two. Jessie James is a Silver Bay and in his mid-teens. His buddy Concho is a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail, and we started him as a two year old, now he's about 6. 

Chip (about 5) is a chestnut pinto that some friends bought for their little girl. They had some trouble training him and learning how to trim his hooves, so came to us for advice. We trained him to harness and about a year later his owners came across and adopted a starved little mini that was almost the same color as Chip. Eddie is the smallest of all the minis, but he is very serious and a hard worker. He's also the fastest.

Chip and Eddie (who we often call Edward since he's so serious) were boarded with my friends for awhile, and then the owners moved away and were unable to take the horses. So the two boys moved in with Star and Rocky. 

Chip is the one pulling the buckboard in the video, and the one I'm driving after Star.

Hopefully you can see how great minis can be! I've had people ask me what you would do with one, but they have great personalities, somewhere between a dog and a horse. They're a lot less inclined to spook than big horses. They're great running partners (I often go for a jog with one or two when visiting my friends), you can pony big horses and little horses off the carts, and driving is a lot of fun. They're excellent for taking non-riders out for a horsey time, and good for little kids and the elderly who can't ride. They also go a great speed for exercising dogs, as you can see. I plan to get a mini when one of my mares passes on.


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## gottatrot

FYI, I've had some people ask how much weight the mini horses should be pulling?
Here's from a miniature horse website:



> It is generally said that a miniature can pull 3 to 5 times its own weight. Of course it also depends on the type of surface underfoot.
> In deep sand or over rough terrain the load size might require adjusting. An average full-grown (mini) horse can easily pull two adults in a cart for
> the distance of ten miles. A team of Miniatures in Alberta, owned by Merv Giles of Cochrane Alberta, pulled a dead weight of 1135 lbs.
> in a horse-pulling contest. A single horse pulled a dead weight of 900 lbs. Merv no longer demonstrates horse pulling because of the
> misunderstanding of onlookers, who accused him of cruelty, even though his horses pulled willingly without the use of a whip.
> Many people do not realize that these horses have been bred to have the stamina to pull heavy loads, due in part to their heritage
> as "pit ponies" in the mines.


These minis weigh anywhere from 250-350 lbs. So even the largest of us or two of us don't make a serious "load" for the minis to pull. When we first went out, several of them wanted to gallop off and it took some convincing with the reins to tell them to wait. They were fresh and did not feel hampered by pulling us in the slightest!










Riding Halla yesterday was interesting and challenging. We are going much straighter, for sure. She is getting very fit, having done an almost 8 mile ride last week, and about a 7 mile ride this week. When we hit the beach (went out with Nala, the OTTB), the horses had too much energy so Nala did her power trot and Halla cantered for the first mile. At which point we ran into some beach congestion, but then did about another half mile of cantering. 

These first two miles there was nothing I could do but have her turn half/serpentines and switch leads every few strides. Otherwise she would have just tanked off with me. The curb bit is very nice for directional steering. With the leather strap and gentle mouthpiece, I don't feel that I am doing anything harsh even with the leverage when I pull. It is a little more tricky keeping Halla's head up with a gentle leather strap instead of a chain, but I am willing to have that loss of full control since it is much kinder in my mind. So once in awhile she will attempt to lower down and run off, and then I'll have to use a bit of my core strength and tell her "Nope," and lift her back up again. 

The horses were barely getting warmed up. We turned off onto about a mile of trails through the dunes, as in the photo. It was not good enough footing to canter, so we walked and trotted. At the end (about 3 miles away from home), we came out of the dunes at the edge of a river. The sun was shining, the horses were sweating, so we pointed them toward the river. Halla went in quite happily, and soon both horses were splashing around and through the water. 

We circled around the riverbank and headed back toward the ocean. Now there was a wide, flat expanse of deeper sand. My friend let Nala gallop. I was not sure how deep it was, so started out cautiously but the footing was good enough. Halla tripped a little when the depth changed, but caught herself. I let her gallop out a bit, but even at the gallop had to switch leads a few times to control the excitement level. Sometimes I'd really like a track with really good footing that just went around like racehorses have (watched the Derby today). 

Now we were heading home, about 4 miles into the ride and Nala was beginning to mellow out. Halla stayed prancy until we were at the 5 mile mark, at which point I decided she needed to canter some more. Now Nala did a working trot and Halla did a lovely slow canter, finally relaxing nicely. The last mile and a half home we cooled the horses out and they came in quite pleased with themselves, a bit tired, and thinking of dinner. 

Halla seems to think she is a race horse. She goes out for a gallop, then enjoys a good hosing all over, even on her face and under her belly. Then she likes to have the sweat scraper, and then some hay and oats. Seems like she'd fit in on the race track.


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## bsms

Sounds wonderful. I'd love to have a place where I could ask for speed. The ground here is as hard as pavement. The trails are like having 1' rocks scattered around on top of paved road. 

Bandit started limping a little 10 days ago. All we had done is walk, and perhaps a few hundred yards of easy trotting. The farrier was out the next day and he showed me a stone bruise on Bandit's rear hoof. I need to get him comfortable enough in neighborhoods that I can take him thru a couple miles of it to get him north of here, where there is some softer ground and some soft dirt trails that go for 5+ miles. Riding on beaches sounds heavenly. I'm jealous.


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## egrogan

I agree @bsms, I'm so jealous too, but for the opposite reason! All our riding spots around here are a soggy, muddy mess. This has been an endless rainy cold spring. We have barn neighbors who have graciously given us permission to ride across their fields and through their woods, but even walking across the hay field is leaving big hoof ruts which feels really disrespectful.


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## gottatrot

I hate adrenaline. Supposedly some people like the feeling of adrenaline coursing through their body, but I absolutely hate it. The sudden squeezing in the chest, heart racing, muscles filling with blood and getting tight. The shaky, tremorous feeling when the adrenaline leaves and you're left feeling weak and slightly emotional.

There are different approaches to avoiding adrenaline in the body. My approach for years has been to expose myself to things that cause adrenaline release, until my mind is accustomed and stops reacting. As a nurse, working where patients were supposedly stable it bothered me when they suddenly stopped breathing or started bleeding out. So I moved to ICU, and then began in ER as well, trying to expose myself to all types of emergencies and traumas so I wouldn't have to react with fear or an adrenaline rush when bad things happened.

With horses, I've tried to expose myself to as many situations as possible, and to ride at all gaits. When a bolting horse scared me, I began galloping all kinds of horses. I've tried to handle and work with all types of horses, and to ride in many different situations. Horse shows made me nervous so I rode in a few of those too. It works very well to train your body that a spook or a buck is no emergency. For me, it's helped me avoid many surges of adrenaline and to feel more confident.

However, there's one type of situation I can't expose myself to, and it freaks me out every time. Horse accidents. Last night I was in the grain room rattling a garbage can. When I stopped making noise, there was still a loud rattling going on. In a moment, I realized it was a VERY BAD SOUND. There are sounds that only can be made by very large, nearly 1,000 lb animals and this was a sound that loud. 

Rushing out to the sound, the adrenaline hit me full blast and I saw Halla was stuck in her gate and thrashing to free herself violently. She has a gate like this on her runout, and she'd grown impatient waiting for another horse to come in for the night, had put a hoof on the bar and a leg had fallen through up to her chest. 








These are fairly safe gates for horses, but Halla being an Arab was panicking and thrashing her way out. After a few seconds, she pulled free and stood shaking. Her injuries were fairly minor; she was bleeding from scraping her chestnut mostly off, had taken some hair off down to the hide in several places and the right front knee had a decent abrasion. 

When I walked her she wasn't lame, and thankfully is sound today as well. Since I believe in Murphy's law, I am guessing since I said recently she was getting into good shape that now she'll get about two weeks off. Ugh, the adrenaline wore off and I felt shaky and horrible, but at least my horse was all right.
I cope by telling my horses what stupid dummies Arabs are and how much I wish I had smarter horses. Very affectionately, of course. 








_*"Who, me?"
*_








*"Uh oh, now I suppose you're going to want to ride me more?"
*
That's right, Amore had to get into harder work today. She is a star. At 25 she kept up easily with Nala who is only 12, much bigger than her and an athletic Thoroughbred. We went 7.5 miles with lots of extended trotting and about a mile of cantering. Amore never even took a deep breath, but sweated nicely and asked to keep trotting even when we were letting the horses walk. 

Very nice to once in awhile trot and canter a horse that goes straight like an arrow and is completely relaxed and moving out on a loose rein. Sometimes I forget about these lovely horses you can just put into a gait and have them maintain it for a mile without the rider having to keep insisting they don't ramp up into a faster gait or gallop off. ​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Gottatrot, have you ever worked with your horses on hobbling? If not it might help for the inevitable "next time".

Oliver managed to push over an old gate in the pasture about three weeks ago and got himself hung up on it overnight. He had been standing there a while as evidenced by the number of poop piles, just calmly waiting for someone to come get him out. He got himself caught up over the high tensile wire fence once too did the same thing...calmly waited for someone to come. 

My trainer said it was because we had hobble trained him so when he gets caught on something he stops and waits instead of fighting it.


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## Bondre

I'm glad that Halla is ok. It's so scary when they get in a tight spot and start panicking, and you can't just weigh in to help sort them out or you risk getting squashed or trampled in the process. Fortunately Halla is not _such _ a dumb Arab and she managed to get herself out of the maws of the evil gate on her own;-) 

Macarena gave me a few scares in her first months with me because she used to set back when tied. The first time she did it was totally unexpected,; I was picking her feet out when something freaked her - maybe just the fact she wasn't in control of all four feet - and she reared up and ran backwards. I had her hard tied (I had never heard of horses that pull back) and the quick release knot proved to not release as quickly as I would have liked. Plus all my fingers turned temporarily into thumbs. Hard to undo an overtight knot with ten thumbs and a horse still freaking on the other end of the rope lol. 

It's funny you speak of Amore as your easy-to-ride horse in comparison to Halla. You're obviously well-cured when a horse that has bucked you off umpteen times becomes your easy choice lol. In fact I suspect that neither of your lovely mares are particularly easy for the uninitiated. Not criticising them though, I admire them both greatly.


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## gottatrot

I definitely know how difficult it can be to untie a horse that pulls back, even with a quick release knot. They get extremely tight. 

Yes, it's odd why Amore is the easy one to ride while Halla seems more difficult. I have only come off Halla a few times and most were not even her fault. If a horse gets their front legs tangled up in brush and goes down, it's not their fault if you come off. If a horse has a bareback pad slide back going up a hill and it becomes a bucking strap, it's not their fault if they do slow, gentle bucks until you get tired of it and slide off. 
But it's really easy to ride Amore until that moment where she does something that tosses you off. Versus you have to ride Halla with your entire mind and body any time you go faster than a walk. The whole entire time. 

Today the vet came and floated the horses' teeth and gave them spring shots. Halla was sedated well, but she stays rather alert even with her eyes drooping closed. She holds her head up and even whinnied and snorted a couple times, even while staying still and cooperating well due to being sedated. 

The vet thought Amore was doing well on the Prascend for her Cushing's, but suspects we may have to up her dose in a year or two since she is still shedding a bit of her coat out in May. 
The vet also said Halla seems very healthy...I always ask her to evaluate her weight since I just cannot get an ounce of fat on that mare. She said that even though you can see her ribs a little, they are filled in between with muscle, and every part of her body is covered with muscle. She said any pound she gains is not going to fat, just muscle, so she keeps that lean and fit look. Genetically she is just an athlete, apparently. 

With Nala, not suspecting the vet is coming today:








Have to share some beautiful pics Nala's owner took: I very much admire a good Thoroughbred.
























She's a perfect friend for my "pseudo Thoroughbred," Halla.


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## gottatrot

Thinking tonight about the value systems we have around our horses. For instance, what constitutes a well behaved or well trained horse? How values differ is something I've considered quite a bit. 

One reason I have been thinking of this is related to discussion in a recent thread about Natural Horsemanship. Another reason is because at my barn we have two horse owners who are very much into clinics and certain Natural Horsemanship gurus. One of them has arranged to have a clinic at our barn in a couple of months, and has encouraged me to attend. The clinic is $550 for 3 days. The two owners just got back from a clinic done by the same clinician just a week ago, and now are planning this one. 

It made me wonder...do they feel everyone would benefit from a clinic like this, or do they feel in particular my feisty Arabs would benefit? 
Which made me consider that attending their clinic would not help me with any of the goals I have (helping Valhalla achieve more calmness at faster gaits, getting her to move straighter - getting both horses as fit as possible - in general making sure horses and humans are having fun). 

And while these horse owners say they have a goal of being able to just take their horses out and ride them on the trails, they are taking an excruciatingly long, slow and expensive route because they believe in this particular process which has been sold to them as natural horsemanship. 

Meanwhile, I could take either of their horses out tomorrow and canter them down the beach, which is what they dream of doing at some nebulous point in the future. I also could teach either of them to do so on their horses in a matter of weeks, but that would involve a bit of trust and courage they don't have, because they feel it can only be achieved through a slowly built up relationship with the horse. 

I've found that many things I think are extremely important for a horse are very unimportant to other people. I've also found that many things I find unimportant are crucial in other peoples' minds.

One example: when I was in Japan on vacation a couple years ago, I rode a Dosanko horse, which is a native breed. The owner of the horses described them as very feisty. Instead of training the horses to stand for hoof trimming, he had a chute that he put the horses in and tied the leg to work on it. These horses were well trained in many other ways, stood quietly when tied, while being tacked up, and we rode them easily. But the owner did not find it important to have them stand and have their hooves trimmed without needing this device.

I know that many people believe any well trained horse should walk right beside you on the lead, never falling behind or going in front of you. Horses should stand perfectly still to be mounted. Horses should not rub their heads on you. These things are so unimportant to me, I don't care if my horses walk a couple feet in front of me or behind me, all I care is that we go together and they respond when I pull or push with the lead in some direction. If they get too far ahead, I'll circle them back. Amore always scratches her head on me when we're done riding. Both my horses often walk off as soon as I'm aboard. I could care less. 

Chances are, this lack of perfect ground manners could be seen by my natural horsemanship friends as a lack of respect, a "hole" in training, or something my horses need to work on. I could work on these things, if I cared to. But knowing myself and the lack of importance I place on a horse that steps back as you lean in toward him, I would quickly untrain these traits in the same way I've both taught and untaught my horses to stand quietly when mounted. 

I value getting a horse to work hard for me, and to feel good and enjoy the work. Others value other things.

Another note: I believe in having my horses' teeth done yearly, as encouraged by my vet. It's interesting that people will pay more for a clinic than it would cost to float their horses' teeth for several years, yet consider the clinic more vital than having the teeth done.


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## knightrider

Amen to all that!


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## bsms

Holes in training are a sore point with me. Sometimes they are holes, but often they are just a mutually acceptable compromise.

When I tack up Bandit, I lead him to our little arena. It usually has a LITTLE grass growing on it, in patches. So I grab a curry comb & hoof pick, find a spot, and he grazes (and moves as he sees fit) while I curry him. He stand while I'm picking his feet, and holds his hoof, but may move when I change feet. 

Then I lead him back to the tool bucket and get a brush. We go find a spot, and he nibbles while I brush.

Then I take him back to the tool bucket, and toss on his saddle pad and saddle. The we go find a spot, and he nibbles while I get his saddle set. He doesn't give a rat's rear about my moving the saddle around or cinching it up.

Then we go back to the tool bucket, I put the bit in his mouth (or sidepull), put on my noggin cover (helmet), and it is time to start work. So is all that moving around a "hole"? To us, it is just a low-key way of doing things, and he gets to eat (happy horse!) and I get him cleaned and tacked (happy person), and he moves back and forth - moving his feet - when I ask...so...teaching him submission? Lunging in a straight line? I dunno, but I usually have a good read on his mood by the time I need to mount up!

Cowboy wouldn't consider going out alone. Guess he is herd bound. But no one has ASKED him to go out alone for 3 years. Same with Trooper. I'm the only one who goes out alone, with Bandit, and Bandit is getting a bit herd-bound now. Who is to blame him?

But my youngest is out of school, and may skip fall semester because a good friend has offered to take her to Thailand with her on a two month family visit this fall. We think that could do a lot more for her learning than a semester in the community college! But between now and next January, there are only 2 months were she won't be available.

So if I emphasize her riding with me as Bandit gets fully used to the local neighborhood, is that creating a hole? egrogan posted a video of cavalry training riders and horses here: 

http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...g-through-together-622121/page12/#post9031713

I've always felt like I failed Mia because there were limits to what I achieved with her. But watching the video...man! What would it be like to teach a horse (and rider) by having 30-40 horses go out and ride behind the instructor! If Bandit learns confidence around the local area riding out with other horses, can't I always work on going out with just the two of us later? I consider not wanting to go out alone a 'training hole', but when 3 horses live together and almost never see another horse...can you blame them?

Bandit arrived here unable to be ridden with contact. Any contact seemed to mean "STOP!" to him. But his previous rider didn't care, so it was just something to teach him to get him used to how I like to ride. His previous rider encouraged him to be competitive. I don't want it. Why is either wrong? Heck, part of the fun of a new horse is all the customizable options one can install! Well, TRY to install...

"_I also could teach either of them to do so on their horses in a matter of weeks, but that would involve a bit of trust and courage they don't have, because they feel it can only be achieved through a slowly built up relationship with the horse._"

In their defense...I'm really slow too. Mia taught me a lot of good things, but she also scared me a lot too! Something that occurred to me after I stopped posting on a recent thread about NH is maybe what the clinicians are REALLY doing is teaching riders - many middle aged and new to horses - how to trust their horse. At 20, I rarely rode but was fearless. At 58, I ride frequently...and am too frequently a bundle of fear.

But I could not imagine paying $550 for a 3 day clinic. Maybe once. But not repeating it again and again. Of course, I felt that way about lessons, too. I could see taking lessons for a few months, then working on things for six months, then taking lessons again. But never-ending lessons, around and around and around?

:hide:​


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> What would it be like to teach a horse (and rider) by having 30-40 horses go out and ride behind the instructor! If Bandit learns confidence around the local area riding out with other horses, can't I always work on going out with just the two of us later? I consider not wanting to go out alone a 'training hole', but when 3 horses live together and almost never see another horse...can you blame them?


Chances are good that those horses that are used to going out riding with 30 other horses would be insecure and uncomfortable going out alone. Yet I'd have difficulty saying those horses had "holes" in their training if they were controllable in such a large group over tough terrain. 


bsms said:


> Bandit arrived here unable to be ridden with contact. Any contact seemed to mean "STOP!" to him. But his previous rider didn't care, so it was just something to teach him to get him used to how I like to ride. His previous rider encouraged him to be competitive. I don't want it. Why is either wrong? Heck, part of the fun of a new horse is all the customizable options one can install! Well, TRY to install...


I agree. It used to be that I felt responsible to make my horses into this "generic" type of horse that I believed anyone would want to own. But it is difficult to keep a horse that way if you do things very differently. In the end, if we train our horses what I would consider "properly," we turn them into what is most convenient for us to deal with. If we always take three horses out and tie them together, our horses might not retain an ability to stay tied calmly all alone. But do you really want to spend a lot of time training a horse to do something that he never needs to do? In my experience, if a horse doesn't use it, they often lose it.

This is why I will work happily anytime with someone else's horse, but I won't work them on a regular basis. Unless I'm always going to be the one working with the horse, I want the regular user to be the one doing the riding and training, with help. Yes, I can take my friends' horses out and canter them on the beach. But I will quickly teach the horse how to cover ground efficiently, and how to settle into a good pace. This might make the horse more forward than the regular rider is comfortable with. So while I have ridden horses many times for other people to get them through a problem, I want to get the regular rider on the horse as quickly as possible. They need to ride the horse the way they want the horse to go. That's what the horse needs to be learning.

My friends who own the mini horses are different, because all of our horses are ridden in much the same way. So I could borrow one of their horses for a few months and give him back without any worries about his becoming "too much" for the rider. Even if I put in a button that wasn't quite right, they'd put it back the way they wanted quickly enough. 

Of course, then there's the things some horses retain that are very difficult to change, such as my friend's horse Cassie who has trouble being calm at times, and like Halla who has the same issue as well as trouble going straight. (Note: what we call "trouble being calm," some would call "freaking out/unmanageable".) Yet the horses are very different. Halla becomes more manageable with some miles behind her. Cassie starts out calm and slowly builds excitement over a few miles, at which point she becomes a handful. The interesting thing about Cassie is that she always is good in a strange new place. If you take her to a trail ride away from home, people think she's very well behaved. 


bsms said:


> In their defense...I'm really slow too. Mia taught me a lot of good things, but she also scared me a lot too! Something that occurred to me after I stopped posting on a recent thread about NH is maybe what the clinicians are REALLY doing is teaching riders - many middle aged and new to horses - how to trust their horse. At 20, I rarely rode but was fearless. At 58, I ride frequently...and am too frequently a bundle of fear.


I know that with age there can come more caution and fear. But I have seen this happen at any age, that as people learn what _*can *_happen they become more fearful. I've seen young teens riding out boldly and confidently, and then getting overfaced by a horse and losing their nerve. I've seen people in their 20s doing foolish things and thinking I was over cautious and timid when I spoke up. Yet when I was unfortunately right about what could happen, their boldness turned into insecurity and fear. 

I agree about NH trying to teach people confidence, but my humble opinion is that if things proceed too slowly, it makes people more nervous rather than less. When I was a kid, I remember sitting up in a tree trying to get up the nerve to jump off into a pile of leaves. The more I thought about it, the more things I imagined might go wrong and the more fearful I became. In the end, I sat up in the tree for a very long time before climbing down and going home. 
I think NH tries to teach people confidence, but often fails to teach the riding skills necessary to be safe. Which means many of the riders fall off, get injured, and then never recover their confidence again. 

I believe that a very important skill to learn is how to evaluate fear as an emotion, and how to evaluate your safety with logic instead. If logic says you are safe, then going through with the activity several times will help change your emotion from fear to confidence. If my logic says it's safe, I force my body to do it. That is my personal strategy for getting over fear, and it works well for me. Confidence with horses waxes and wanes, in my experience. Skills can be improved upon, confidence is fickle and cannot be trusted. I trust my skills more than my emotions. My skills will not improve unless I can overcome fear and try new things.


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## bsms

I can only approach riding as a middle-aged rider, or maybe a "middle-aged plus some" rider. Tinyliny mentioned the problem of balance as one gets older. I suspect it is largely due to lack of use, but life tends to do that. It also has a physical basis, with decay in muscle and other tissue over the years.

I'm convinced vision plays a role. When young, I had very, very mild vertigo. Certainly nothing I couldn't ignore. When I was forced to wear glasses, the vertigo became much worse. When young, I liked visiting Angel's Landing in Zion Park (Internet photos):








​ 







​ 
In my early 40s I tried it, and made it to Scout Lookout (about 2/3 of the way) and could go no further. By 50, I couldn't even make it to Scout Lookout. I get disoriented, to the point I have a hard time telling up from down - not good when "down" can mean falling hundreds of feet!

My glasses, now bifocals, provide good vision directly ahead, but my peripheral vision is shot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe the loss of my peripheral vision aggravated the vertigo that was always lurking.

It would be interesting to know if it affects people's balance on a horse. It seems like it would. That plus the balance degradation that comes with too many years sitting in chairs may play a role in fear of riding.

Of course, much of it is also false fear. Looking back over the last 2-3 years, I'm amazed at how much fear my early years with Mia created. I never gave her credit for changing with time, and I'm having problems truly - at the subconscious level - accepting that Bandit is a very different horse! 

A tempting experiment would be to get contact lenses to give me good distance vision - say 15' plus, and then reading glasses that would work with the contacts. Would my vertigo be reduced and balance on horseback improve?

I realize young people struggle with the same sort of fears. A new rider who hasn't developed the balance on horseback may have to fight both rational fear ("I'm not good at this") and irrational ("I'm going to be hurt!") at the same time. Very overweight riders struggle too. Old books on jumping talk about the need for firm, flat thighs to provide grip. Well, my jogger's thighs are more rounded than flat, although all my fat goes to my belly button like it is drawn by a magnet! But yes, flabby thighs also make balance on a horse difficult. And America is awash in flabby thighs.

And no, I'm not mocking people. I'm trying to lose 5 lbs right now, and it is NOT easy. All I really want is to lose just 5 lbs, and it is kicking my butt! So I fully understand the struggle!

"_I think NH tries to teach people confidence, but often fails to teach the riding skills necessary to be safe. Which means many of the riders fall off, get injured, and then never recover their confidence again._"

I agree. On a recent NH thread, I wrote:



bsms said:


> ...Unfortunately, their target audience for marketing is the person who hasn't been around horses long, who is overhorsed and/or afraid, and their offered solution doesn't address the root of the problem for those riders - *the need to become more confident by FIRST becoming better riders, AND the need to start with a horse who doesn't overwhelm them*...


I also think, on the whole, riding instruction often fails to teach people how to stay on a horse. Most instructors grew up riding, and they do not understand how many important things they do without thinking. So instead of teaching important stuff - keeping the horse between you and the ground - they teach things likes "Toes front", or stress a vertical line from ear to shoulder to hip to heel. Yet many new riders can do NEITHER without creating tension in the leg, or shortening their base of support. Feeling your horse's center of gravity and staying relaxed would be more helpful, but many experienced riders do that without thinking - so they don't think to orient their lessons toward learning to do it!

But many of the NH clinicians and promoters never address HOW TO RIDE. They totally ignore it. They want to focus on how you and your horse relate. But Mia and I had a GREAT relation, provided she remembered I was there! She also, when nervous, did NOT want me to dismount. That was "abandoning ship" in her eyes, and the last thing she wanted was to be left alone! So she would try to prevent me from dismounting, which is a bad spot to be in on a nervous horse. But we had a great relationship. We both really liked each other. We were not always safe, but we LIKED each other a lot! NH folks don't tend to address that situation. :icon_rolleyes:

Some fears are irrational and need to be ridden through. Others, often without our understanding WHY, are actually fears based on reasons, even if we don't know what those reasons are. Those fears need to be addressed by teaching good riding and good habits around horses, but "good riding" has become defined as "what wins in shows with well trained horses and experienced riders" instead of what many new riders need - how to stay on a horse while defusing tense situations.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I get disoriented, to the point I have a hard time telling up from down - not good when "down" can mean falling hundreds of feet!


I'd also like to know what causes vertigo. I don't have a fear of heights, but a couple of years ago we were hiking on the Na Pali coast in Hawaii out on the fins and I got severe vertigo. It was strange, I lost my balance and had to sit down for awhile, and then had to head back to wider ground.









I can understand why people who are very overweight can have more fear. It would be difficult with the wrong body type to know you could get off quickly, and that is one thing that helps alleviate some fear for me, knowing I can get off quickly when necessary.

You're right, it's not just NH that fails to teach people to how to stay on a horse. Many riding lessons also fail at that. It seems more common with NH that people lose their nerve to even try riding, however. But I've also seen that with older riders who know nothing of NH. 



bsms said:


> *Some fears are irrational and need to be ridden through. Others, often without our understanding WHY, are actually fears based on reasons, even if we don't know what those reasons are. Those fears need to be addressed by teaching good riding and good habits around horses*, but "good riding" has become defined as "what wins in shows with well trained horses and experienced riders" instead of what many new riders need - how to stay on a horse while defusing tense situations.


That is very well said, and defines my own personal struggle. As someone who rides somewhat on the edge, it becomes very difficult for me sometimes to evaluate if something is actually safe or not. Quite a few times I've hesitated about something, and then decided it was safe enough when actually it was not. Thankfully, those times have mostly still turned out OK, and have taught me valuable lessons. I tend to believe other peoples' gut feelings more than my own. If another rider hesitates, I am sure they're right, and we don't go for it. Also I believe strongly in riding to the least secure rider and the most green horse, so that is an important consideration. 

Our senses are more highly tuned than we realize. I've experienced as a nurse that I can sense something is not right in a patient that is fine based on everything we can measure, and with closer monitoring we nearly always find the problem. Once in awhile there is nothing wrong, but the person just has an odd skin color or something else outside the norm. Still, it is better to listen to that gut feeling than to ignore it.

But when do we push ourselves, and other riders? If someone tells me they have no interest in advancing their riding, that is fine. But if someone would really love to gallop on a horse if only they could, that is someone I will encourage and try to push past their natural hesitation and fear, and to find a safe environment where they can learn to do what they wish. That's because I've had people push me to do things I was afraid of such as jumping, and riding bareback, and those things have helped me out a lot as a rider.


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## Bondre

Interesting discussion about the holes in training. I agree with you both, that what might be an unacceptable hole for one person could be irrelevant for another rider. I guess that's why people who train horses for sale tend to have very different opinions on this one than those of us who just train our own horses. I can afford the luxury of not having to train Macarena to do stuff that I don't need her to do. 

Tacking up and mounting is a good example of where people can differ widely. I do it like bsms. I put her bridle on in the corral - seeing as it's bitless she can eat fine with it - and then take her out and allow her to browse while I brush her off and sake her up. Then I walk her up to the landscape feature that I use as a mounting block. Tighten the girth and I'm up. She often moves off as soon as my butt touches the saddle but, same as gottatrot, it's not a big deal for me. It's not like she going to take off bucking lol. She walks forward to the track while I find my other stirrup and check the girth again, then I gather the reins and the ride begins. 

Things that are important to me: she should be forward. We have gone through a sticky patch on this one but I think we're through the worst. She is improving hugely now despite being ridden so infrequently. When she gets stuck somewhere, I just give her a bit of time. She soon moves forward again. It works better that way than getting into a fight. Although sometimes when she stalls out I give her a thump with my legs - depends on the situation and her reasons for stalling out. If she's nervous and looky about something I'm patient; If she's being lazy I'm insistent. 

Another important thing for me is that she is responsive to my hands, seat and legs. That's an easy one to train into a horse as long as you always use light cues to stay with and never nag.

Yesterday I realised that it's also important that your horse knows how to come down off an adrenaline high. I think all horses get excited when they go fast out in open country, and the more hot-blooded your horse, the bigger the adrenaline high. When I was riding yesterday I decided to let Macarena canter across some fields in the direction of home. This was a bit risky perhaps, as there was a good probability that she would take off, but we've done this lots in the past with no problems. It's just since she's gone barn sour that I'm more careful about asking for speed towards home. And when she's going away from home her speed is never excessive. But I thought ****it, I want to be able to canter her fast in open country again, it's fun for us both, so let's do it. 

She couldn't quite belIeve it at first and then she took off into a lightning sprint. Sadly the terrain wasn't very good and all too soon we hit really uneven ground and I had to pull her up. I turned her away from home to slow her and she soon stopped, but she quivering with excitement. Before the canter she was 80% relaxed and 20% nervous. Afterwards she was 80% excited and still 20% nervous, but zero relaxation lol. So then we began on turning the excitement back into relaxation. She didn't take too long. Maybe five minutes of archy neck dancing before she started to stretch out a bit and I felt she was ready for a loose rein. But although she cavorted a bit she didn't actually buck or even think of rearing, so that was good. 

I think teaching your horse to relax after excitement - or even genuine fear - is a very valuable lesson to work on. Not an easy one to teach as you have to deliberately put yourself into high energy situations to be able to work on the relaxation. But it's the same as everything with riding - it all comes down to the relationship you have with your horse and how much she trusts you.

I could ramble on more but I must go and feed the goats lol.


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> I guess that's why people who train horses for sale tend to have very different opinions on this one than those of us who just train our own horses. I can afford the luxury of not having to train Macarena to do stuff that I don't need her to do.


I've had some people lecture me about keeping my horses trained so other people could easily use them...in case something happened to me. But I have friends who have agreed to take my horses if I were incapacitated, so I don't worry about that now. 


Bondre said:


> Yesterday I realised that it's also important that your horse knows how to come down off an adrenaline high. I think all horses get excited when they go fast out in open country, and the more hot-blooded your horse, the bigger the adrenaline high...Maybe five minutes of archy neck dancing before she started to stretch out a bit and I felt she was ready for a loose rein.


Great job for Macarena! Slowing down for you and then calming down in five minutes, that's really great.

I've been able to let a few horses gallop for the first time, and it is so interesting. I remember one gelding who I let out and told him to go. He just couldn't believe it. My reins were loose as can be and I was kissing to him and telling him go, go, and he just kept cantering higher and higher, so insecure. Finally he leaped forward and then I felt this burst of energy as he stretched out. But after four strides he checked up again, asking, really? What a good boy he was. Then he flew for a long ways, and when I finally brought him down he was shaking from all the adrenaline. 

I remember another mare who shook so badly from the adrenaline after her first gallop that we were laughing and wondering if she'd be able to walk OK. Poor thing. We try not to overface them, and I always get a horse in great condition before galloping, but it is terribly exciting for them. Interestingly, Halla was one that did not tremble after her first gallop. I think she has dealt with a lot of adrenaline over her life and it is not as shocking to her system. 
*********************************
Amore's new rider seems to be getting along great. I hope she enjoys riding her, and will keep coming out with us. A couple weeks ago she tried out Amore and just rode mostly around the property and in the arena. I saw she could ride and had a good seat. So yesterday, we took her out on Amore with Nala and Halla. Poking around wasn't going to cut it for those two, so once we hit the beach it was "go time." Since I was on the "boss" hoss, I kept it down to a slow canter while Nala and Amore trotted and cantered. 

We headed down a couple miles at a steady pace, onto a trail, and then back to the beach. When we came around a bluff, it didn't occur to me that the last couple times we'd gone around this corner (which opens up on a wide stretch of open beach), we'd gone for a short gallop. I was in front when all of a sudden I heard thundering hooves coming up fast behind, and then saw Nala fly by at a very fast gallop. My new friend on Amore looked quite calm, actually, and had Amore well under control as we kept cantering. I suspected that Nala's rider had not meant to go roaring off at that pace, so I told my friend we'd keep our pace down and catch up gradually so if Nala had lost her calmness she might find it again. After about a half mile, we caught up to Nala, and her rider said that she hadn't meant to take off at that speed, Nala had just tanked off suddenly.

It wasn't long before Nala was very calm, and very tired. Halla was the one who got jiggy for awhile, since her pace had been kept to a medium canter the whole ride. This was also her first time out since scraping her leg a couple weeks ago, so she had a bit of extra mental energy going on.

Today we took Nala and Halla out for another 7 mile ride. We cantered the horses at a good pace and I even got Halla to do some big trotting on the way home. It took us just over an hour to do the 7 miles, so was a good workout for the horses. 

Halla is getting straighter every ride. I discovered something about my Ghost saddle, thanks to the dealer who sold it to me. She mentioned that some people are using shims on their downhill horses. I made a set last week to put inside my saddle pad, and it's amazing how lifting the front of the saddle has helped my balance. With a treed saddle, there is usually a bit of a lift in the front even if your horse is downhill, or the tree helps compensate by staying in place if the horse ducks their head. With the treeless, it was on the same plane as my horse's back, so if she lowered her neck down at the canter I had to put my hand on the pommel to keep my weight from getting thrown forward. 

Between the bit and saddle we are making great progress toward straightness, which is helping us go on longer rides. I'm still not 100% happy with my bit - it's good but I am trying for perfection. I've decided to try a Waterford, since I realized the other day that while I've tried Kimberwicke, Curb, and Pelham on Halla, I haven't tried any other type of mouthpiece in a snaffle. Yes, I admit I am jealous because although Nala is a handful, her rider has her in a snaffle. Halla keeps failing my snaffle experiments. Yet I've only had her in a single broken mouth, a double-jointed, and a mullen. Why not try a snaffle mouthpiece made for horses that are known to lean and pull? 
I ordered a D-ring Waterford, and got a little larger size so I can put bit guards on. I am worried about any pinching. Worst case, I add it to my bit bank.


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## gottatrot

*Some Things I'm Learning about Horses and Evasions*

Our thread on flexion has me reflecting about things I'm learning from horses. One thing is that we must be conscientious about what and why we are teaching, using our imagination to see how it might go wrong. 

Something an Arab mare taught me was that denying contact with the bit is not the same as accepting the bit. This mare was a show mare, and would curl her neck over and keep driving forward as she was taught to go around in the Arab show ring. If you wanted her nose in, you would just touch the bit and she'd move away from it. If you wanted her to move her head to the side, you'd touch the bit and she'd turn her head that direction. So your first impression was of lightness. She was willing and lovely in the show ring, and would cart kids around. But then I got her in a situation where I needed to get her under control. She could evade the bit like no other, and it was totally meaningless. If a horse curls their head all the way in, there is nothing more you can do with the bit! They can keep going wherever they want at whatever speed. She taught me that I want horses to have a feel with the bit, not an avoidance of it. I want a moment or two of tension as they feel my pressure, before they react to what I am asking. Versus just avoiding that tension altogether.

Amore was the first horse that taught me that horses don't have to follow their heads. When I started with her, I was beginning with a very bendy and flexible horse. She had difficulty with flexing away from every pressure applied to her, no matter how light, and ended up bouncing back and forth between the rider's legs as she moved away from them continuously. I taught her the one rein stop. Shortly after I was confident she had it well learned, she spooked and bolted with me, running in a straight line for the fence while staring me in the face because I'd pulled her head around to disengage her hindquarters. She looked pretty scared about not being able to see where she was going, so I released her head and let her figure out she was going to hit the fence, so luckily she stopped just in time. Well, you know Amore, she is one silly horse. I've had to smack her neck to get her to open her eyes when she was galloping behind a horse and the sand was flying in her eyes. She was running blind, literally. 

And good grief, I'm not sure if I'll teach another horse how to leg yield and sidepass or not. I've posted this video before, but I've been reconnecting Halla's body to her head and neck over the past couple of months, after having lost the connection. This is good, in general, having her body stay with the neck rather than craned to one side, looking around. Still, if she wants to for instance watch what Nala is doing while we're cantering down the beach, she'll suddenly turn to face her but keep cantering the direction we're going, like this horse. Get a hot horse worked up and if they know all the ways they can use their body, they'll throw them all at you! So the horse turns sideways, so you straighten her out with the rein, so she over-responds to the rein and leg you've put on by turning completely around in a circle, then you ask her to go forward but she's on her hind end facing the wrong way, so she does a canter half pirouette. Then someone says, "Wow, that was pretty!" But it wasn't, it was a horse out of control. So you walk on a loose rein for awhile, the horse calms, try again. 




If a horse feels trapped, they have options. Up, right, left, back or down. Sometimes we forget about down, but I've had horses try it as an escape route. Down on a hill can mean a slide or a somersault. My friend's horse Raja liked down as an escape. He'd flatten clear out, hoping the scary thing would run over him or maybe not notice him. 

Once I unintentionally trapped Amore. She did not want to go forward toward a scary stump which I stupidly was wanting her to face. She tried backing, which I blocked with my legs, left, and then right all in a space of about three seconds. I blocked each, instinctively, thinking I would keep her from bolting off. Next thing I knew, we were flying in the fastest spin I've ever ridden. Around and around and around. I guess she was planning to teleport out of there by reaching a certain centrifugal force. It lasted long enough for me to decide that was the worst thing I'd been through on a horse, and when she stopped I trotted her a few feet away (she was very wobbly) and jumped off, hunched over and tried not to puke. 
Trapped horses explode in one way or another. When a horse is running, even bolting with you, it still does not compare to having all their energy compressed into a small space and violently involving you in some way as they try to go forward, up, down, left, right or back. I avoid explosions at all costs. In my mind, sometimes I feel like I'm on a pot of ramen noodles that has begun to boil. Lift the lid just in time and it won't boil over. You have to let out some energy, sometimes just a little, in order to keep the explosion from happening. It is far better to go off at a faster pace than you intended rather than getting launched high in the air and hitting the saddle of a crazed horse on the way down. It is our natural instinct to want to stop a horse when things get out of control. Try it a few times with the wrong horses in the wrong situations, and you learn to instead let off the steam. 

How that is done is different with different horses. If a horse spooks or bolts, I stop them first. Just a regular stop, usually a few feet from where they started. If they can't stop or it feels like tension is building, we walk or trot off. If the speed starts ramping up, we turn to one side or do a circle. If they continue to panic, I work on creating distance between us and whatever frightened us. If it's too late and we bolt, I choose the direction of travel and usually give them a short period of time to create distance before trying to get the brain back by using the pulley rein and lead changes to mess up their gait. If you can get a horse into a canter, you are almost always golden by then. Although my friend was on a horse that trotted off persistently and rapidly, and I know it's possible to be stuck on a runaway trotter at a fast pace too. 








Steep downhills are the worst because the horse keeps dropping and it is almost impossible to get your core engaged with any leverage. That's happened to me twice and hopefully never again.
I ride calm and gentle horses, too. It is much less important what you teach them, they cover for you and forgive mistakes. The more difficult horses like Macarena, Mia, and others I've known and read about require a lot more attention to details others dismiss.


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## bsms

"*Trapped horses explode in one way or another.*"​ 
True. There are times I need to urge Bandit on. He's entirely willing to just avoid something that he isn't really afraid of, but that isn't very helpful sometimes. Just as Bandit cannot learn good judgment without sometimes having bad judgment, I can't learn "good judgment" about my horse without getting into spots where I might display bad judgment.

But if I am urging him forward on slack reins - just a little slack, that I can remove immediately on those times I'm using bad judgment - he still has an out. He can turn 90 degrees, or maybe even 180 degrees. He can scoot sideways. But he is still in balance and mentally engaged when doing those, so those are easy to recover from.

In one of my first rides on him, he was nervous about a truck. Slightly, it looked to me. At the time, he was not very 'talkative'. Then he exploded, spinning around and around. We were on pavement, but at the edge of the pavement the ground sloped down 45 degrees for about a 15' drop - and Bandit didn't know or didn't care.

He ended up stopped about 20 feet back, two feet from the edge of the drop. I'm certain he would have fallen had he gone off, and being rolled over by a horse is low on my list of experiences I want to have.

I got him to walk about 50 feet back. Then he was calm enough that I could dismount. On foot, it took about 3 minutes to get past the scary truck (which was carrying pesticide, so it was probably smell he was reacting to). It was later that day that I realized I needed him to "talk" more, and that it was NOT critical that I get him past everything.

I had already started working Mia more with a slack rein, although I found it hard on me - too many memories of bolts, although by that time she had gone at least 3 years without a bolt. Spins, but no bolts. Fear dies slow. But I was still thinking I needed to win. My approach to winning was changing, but I still couldn't accept that some things might just be too tough for her mentally & emotionally, just as some things would be too tough for her physically.

I was still stuck on winning. I was 'failing' if we didn't get past something.

A few weeks after the first blow-up with Bandit, we were out with Trooper and Bandit didn't want to go past something. Trooper walked by unconcerned. Bandit didn't care.

_Vizzini: Let me put it this way: Have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates?

Man in Black: Yes.

Vizzini: Morons.

Bandit: Let me put it this way: Have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Trooper? bsms? Morons! _​
That was how Bandit viewed Trooper that day. Moron! So we turned around, went back 100 feet, then turned back and I dismounted. Again, getting him past on foot took 3-4 minutes. 

But I also realized that if Bandit didn't trust Trooper, it wasn't a failure on my part if he didn't trust me. It was just more than he was prepared to give, mentally. So why did I need to insist? Bandit wasn't being disrespectful of Trooper when he failed to follow Trooper - or if he was, Trooper sure didn't care! So why did I?

I still struggle, regularly, with how much to push him without pushing him too far. But I'll say this: If I'm pushing him with slack reins, he may back out sooner, but he'll back out without blowing up! He may do a fast 90 degree turn and move 10 feet to one side, but he won't buck, spin 360s, race sideways thru someone's yard, take off at a gallop, etc. *Not unless I trap him first...:icon_rolleyes:*


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## karliejaye

I've been reading this journal with a lot of interest for the past few days. I hope it's okay if I join in 


The idea of a trapped horse exploding in one way or another is very interesting to me, and I think it's very important to remember. ALWAYS leave an out for the horse, preferably in a way that is constructive and conductive to the training or goal you are after. Sometimes a physical explosion is okay, though. It gets something done, still has movement to work with. I have had two horses who, when trapped unintentionally or intentionally will explode internally (implode?). Instead of flight or fight they go the lesser known "f" reaction of freezing. One of my current geldings goes there when he feels even slightly trapped. He shuts down, freezes, won't move, gets a glossed over look in his eye and escapes in his mind to never never land. I have learned over the years just where his line is, and to prevent him from shutting down (which accomplishes precisely zero in training) I sometimes allow him to explode in another way first, because a physical explosion I can work with and train through. Especially since his physical explosions consist of very minor cow kicks and half-hearted spins where he takes precisely two steps.
Basically, what I'm getting at, is sometimes an explosion is a training opportunity-for horse AND rider!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...It was later that day that I realized I needed him to "talk" more, and that it was NOT critical that I get him past everything...
> 
> ...I was still stuck on winning. I was 'failing' if we didn't get past something...
> 
> ...But I also realized that if Bandit didn't trust Trooper, it wasn't a failure on my part if he didn't trust me. It was just more than he was prepared to give, mentally. So why did I need to insist?


Good points (and Princess Bride quotes always work, somehow). "Winning" is a good topic. I was taught that you always have to "win" with a horse, and always have to end on a good note after training. 

There was one day a few years ago where I learned a valuable lesson. Amore (probably my best teacher), taught me about winning and losing with horses. On this particular day, I wanted to work on lead changes in the indoor arena. I did several figure eights, and then started doing a simple change in the middle of the figure before going the other way. But when I came around the circle on the right lead, and then changed to the left, at the moment we began to turn around the left circle Amore flipped leads and darted back around onto the right circle. She kept doing this every single time. 

This wasn't good, so I decided I just needed to have her do it correctly one time. We tried, and tried. I made it very easy for her, trotted in the middle, made the circles bigger, etc. No matter what I did, when we began onto the left hand circle she'd do a flying change and leap to the right. Well, I worked until I had no patience left and was completely worn out. In the end, I was forced to give up. I could not find the solution to the problem and went home discouraged.

A few days later, I cleared out some time and decided to work on our lead change issue again. I knew that since we'd ended on a sour note with Amore performing the task wrong each time, it had been cemented into her brain incorrectly, and it was going to be a big task to get things right again. It was not something I looked forward to, especially because those fast changes/darting to the right had been difficult to even stay on.

I brought Amore into the arena, and we started into a figure eight. I asked her to go left, and she flawlessly lifted into the left lead and continued around the circle. Stunned, I tried again. No problem. It turned out she had known what I was asking her, and for whatever reason physical or mental, she had been unable to do the task that day. She did not have some game she as playing where one of us would win and one would lose. She was a good hearted horse (as most are) and would have complied if she thought she could. 

So I thought long and hard about this. If the horse doesn't understand what you are asking and never figures it out, then how does he win? No matter where you quit, you can start again another time. If the horse does understand but won't do what you ask, chances are he is not capable of doing it at that time. Sometimes it's just mental/emotional, but regardless he can't do it. I think it's far more important that a horse enjoys going out and doesn't get frustrated on a daily basis than that the rider "wins" every discussion. 



karliejaye said:


> Instead of flight or fight they go the lesser known "f" reaction of freezing. One of my current geldings goes there when he feels even slightly trapped. He shuts down, freezes, won't move, gets a glossed over look in his eye and escapes in his mind to never never land.


Thanks for joining the conversation! 
That's a very good point, freezing is another possibility. I haven't thought about that one recently, having not dealt with it in awhile. There's a book "Watership Down" about rabbits, and in the book it describes how small animals caught in the gaze of a snake can have a response where they go "tharn." I think of that term when I think of this "f" reaction. It's not only bad for training, but for some horses it is phase one or the warning that something very bad is about to happen. Like you, if a horse seems about to "go tharn" I try to break it up with some kind of movement before the horse gets completely glazed over and stuck..."I'm going to my happy place now." I think some people don't recognize that a horse in this state can be every bit as panicked as the horse that is bolting or spooking, they just express it differently.


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## bsms

I've only seen the "f" reaction once. I was riding Trooper in our little arena, and the neighbor's kids started jumping up and down on a trampoline, squealing with pleasure. 

The neighbor has a fence, and Trooper couldn't see the trampoline, nor had his years on a ranch prepared him for the idea. All he could see is kids being tossed high in the air by some unseen monster as they squealed in pain!

Trooper stopped. And I mean, STOPPED. He would not move. I dismounted, and tried to lead him. He would not budge. For 20 minutes, he stood there. He literally did not move a foot an inch for 20 minutes. Staring.

Then he snorted, turned and looked at me...and I led him back to the corral. He never paid attention to the trampoline again, and I think the neighbors have sold it. But yeah...he shut down. He was in the presence of something beyond his imagination. Wasn't catatonic, but I don't think he knew I was there!


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## karliejaye

bsms said:


> Trooper stopped. And I mean, STOPPED. He would not move. I dismounted, and tried to lead him. He would not budge. For 20 minutes, he stood there. He literally did not move a foot an inch for 20 minutes. Staring.
> 
> Then he snorted, turned and looked at me...and I led him back to the corral. He never paid attention to the trampoline again, and I think the neighbors have sold it. But yeah...he shut down. He was in the presence of something beyond his imagination. Wasn't catatonic, but I don't think he knew I was there!




It's amazing how rigid and stone like they can become. I like to think I am somewhat understanding of this reaction. I was assaulted as a young teen and ever since then I myself have a tendency to "dissociate" when faced with stress. If the horse is feeling at all similar to what humans feel in depersonalization or dissociation, I can attest it is not pleasant, but it is VERY hard to snap out of.


The first gelding I trained from the ground up was a freezer as well, probably due to errors on my part. But with him I learned quickly what can happen if you keep pushing them without regard to their emotions when they get in this state. He would freeze, act like a statue and then violently explode by rearing. Luckily my mentor helped me prevent him from ever flipping, but I learned fast by experience when he froze, I needed to change my game plan. There was no winning in that game.


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## gottatrot

Kids on a trampoline would be much more frightening than a herd of elk for my horses (they see elk all the time so are unworried about them). That reminds me of a time when I was riding in an arena that had a solid wall about halfway up and was otherwise open to air. My horse went bolting across the arena suddenly, and I realized some kids were jumping off the top of the manure pile just outside, so had popped suddenly into the air where my horse could see them go up and fall shrieking. Freaky!

Yesterday Halla and I went out with Nala and Amore (with her new rider). I made two mistakes with my tack - first, I tried putting a neoprene curb guard on Halla's bridle over the leather strap, and I also tried the new, wider and supposedly more shock absorbing panels on my Ghost saddle. We hit the beach, Halla noticed that the curb strap had as much "bite" as an athletic sock and we spent the first mile with me disengaging her driving end as she tried to gallop off. That was when I noticed the wider panels did not work for Halla, making the saddle slip off center. 

After a mile I got off and took the neoprene guard off the curb strap. Something I've learned about Halla is she only gives as much respect as she believes you can enforce. Although I've only been around nice and gentle studs, I could imagine she might be similar to a stallion in that you must prove to her that you can manage her, otherwise she will happily walk or run all over you. But the second you have everything going for you, she becomes manageable and compliant with a workmanlike attitude. 

Well, I struggled with the saddle slippage for the entire 8 mile ride and kept Halla down to a controlled canter. At the 6 mile point, Amore began slightly limping at the trot only. Back at the barn we found a point on her hip (seemed to be favoring her right hind) where perhaps she'd been kicked at some point recently, and apparently the ride had made this injury sore. Today she is quite lame at the trot so I will try to give her some time off and see how it goes.

Amore's new rider handles her beautifully. I asked her if she wanted to ride again today if we found her another horse, and she was all for it. So today we took Nala, Halla and Satin out. 

We started the ride with Earl, the QH since his rider was tacking up when we arrived. We tried for about a mile or so to keep Earl going with us, but his walk and trot were so slow compared to the hot bloods that he kept falling farther behind. Finally we asked his rider if she wanted to keep going or go back, and she decided to head back. That was fortunate since Nala was extremely keen and fresh despite the 8 mile ride yesterday. I wished I'd had my helmet camera on because once we left Earl and began galloping, Nala did the most hilarious leap during her gallop. It was as if she threw a long jump in for fun. We were keeping Satin and Halla back behind a bit, and both Satin's rider and I busted out laughing at Nala's antics. 








_Heading out on a loose rein_​
Halla was overjoyed from the start. First, she saw there were three horses going out and she grew two inches taller at the thought of being in charge of such a big herd. On the beach she locked her gaze onto Satin while keeping a watchful eye on Nala too. I honestly believe she thinks she is controlling the other horses as we speed along. She didn't seem to care about losing Earl too much, perhaps it was enough responsibility to have the other two horses. 

I'd put the good panels back on my saddle so had a secure seat, and fixed the curb. It took Halla about 5 seconds to figure out I was in control when we hit the beach and she was instantly cooperative. 

Amore's new rider who was on Satin today has an excellent seat and hands, as well as a very good feel for when to hold back and let a horse out. Satin is very excitable and I kept asking her rider if she felt comfortable with the situation. She said she hadn't really ridden hard in a few years due to her last horse aging, and had never galloped much. But she is obviously bold and our galloping did not phase her, and she let Satin out and drew her back to keep her engaged without losing her mind. That can be a tricky skill and I'm very pleased about happening upon another good rider to go out with. By mile 6 out of 7, Satin was walking home nicely on a loose rein and with a soft eye.








_Nice day for a gallop​_


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## tinyliny

where are you located? I think you said, but I forgot.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> where are you located? I think you said, but I forgot.


Oregon Coast. Not far from you, eh?


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## Bondre

It sounds as if your horses have a ball when you go out. They must be completely stress free with all those opportunities to stretch out and burn off energy. 

Poor Amore. She's going to be left out of the fun for a few days. I hope that some rest will put her to rights and that it's nothing serious. And poor Earl too! Left behind by the hot ladies :rofl: :rofl:



gottatrot said:


> I wished I'd had my helmet camera on because once we left Earl and began galloping, Nala did the most hilarious leap during her gallop. It was as if she threw a long jump in for fun. We were keeping Satin and Halla back behind a bit, and both Satin's rider and I busted out laughing at Nala's antics.


Macarena does something similar at times - or at least, that's how it feels. On Friday my son accompanied us with Flamenca - who has been off with an abscess but is now back on form - and we went up to my former galloping fields. I haven't taken Macarena there for months, seeing as she has been nervy and I didn't trust her to go at speed in a sane fashion, but since I've been cantering her in smaller fields and she's behaving well I wanted to give her a try. Plus I wanted to try and take a photo of my son and Flamenca from Macarena while we were going at speed, so I needed a long straight stretch where I wouldn't need to worry about steering or stopping for a while and could ride one-handed with the camera in the other. A helmet camera would be so much easier lol. 

At the start of the first canter, Macarena did the jumping thing. She's not bucking but she elevates going forward, so I guess she must be jumping in the air. I discouraged her from continuing with that and then she got down to business and put in her sprint. We left Flamenca behind (she is unfit) and I couldn't get a photo. 

After the gallop we calmed them down and then we did It again. A bit more sedately as they had lost the first flush of excitement, and I managed to catch Flamenca perfectly before we overtook.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

:shock: I'll be in oregon along the coast this next week! Crazy! We are vacationing there. I have always thought Oregon is one of the most beautiful places on earth. No wonder I was always jealous of your pictures! :lol:


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## gottatrot

Well! @horseluvr2524 is coming for a ride tomorrow. 
Should be great fun. 

Tried out the Waterford mouthpiece on Halla today. She found it very gentle and tried to take off once we started going faster. When she discovered it wasn't quite as gentle as she first thought, she became angry with it and tried about five different types of evasions. None of them worked extremely well for her, but I found it took a lot of strength to stop her. Those who say to be careful or you'll teach a horse to run through a Waterford? Well, Halla is sort of genius with bits and figures out very quickly how they work and if she can get around that. 

My friend had read lots about Waterfords too, and had some suggestions about different ways to use it. Halla didn't "lean" or put her head down. I think that's why it doesn't work for her. I was thinking of her as one that leans, but now I'm realizing she doesn't actually lean. She very rarely has a heavy feeling with the bit, but she can arrange her body behind the bit and push from behind very powerfully, and then in order to manage the speed and direction I have to use contact and release that she respects. So since she doesn't actually use the bit to lean on and propel herself, the Waterford mouthpiece was too gentle when I contacted her with it, and she didn't respond easily or lightly. 

I'd say it wasn't a bad bit for her, meaning it was definitely something more to work with than a regular snaffle. But she goes so very nicely in her Myler curb in comparison. I believe the biggest factor for her is the curb strap. That is what she respects and listens to.

My friend wants to try the Waterford on Nala, who does lean a little. I also want to try it on Satin to see how she goes in it. It will probably work for one of the horses, and is an interesting bit to try. I was surprised at how gentle it felt on my arm, and that made me suspect prior to our ride that it perhaps might not work on Halla very well.


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## gottatrot

Horses seem to highlight the joy and sorrow of life, sometimes both in one day. 

Horseluvr showed up at the barn, with nice family in tow. Right away she put Satin to task, redirecting her from taking her energy out on the tie rack. She had the obvious calm and confident demeanor of someone who knows and understands horses. It was apparent that she was understating her ability, but did admit she had galloped out Thoroughbreds, knew exactly the length of stirrup she needed in a strange saddle, and had Satin gathered under her as soon as she mounted. After giving her the option of choosing Amore or Satin to ride, she chose Satin, and I had no qualms about giving her a go at the feisty little mare.

I had tried to reproduce Amore's lameness over the past couple days and could not find any signs of being "off" on the lunge. So we took Amore out with her new, usual rider. 

Horseluvr's mom exclaimed over how small the three Arabs' little heads were. 
"No brains," I explained. We gave the completely wrong impression of the Oregon horse scene, these folks from Arizona now believe in Oregon riders go out on Arabs and Thoroughbreds in dressage saddles. Nala came as well, so we had three Arabs and the TB.

Satin seemed to be able to tell her rider would keep up with her just fine, and the first mile on the beach was about trying to organize the four horses with the riders, but even so the pace was not what one would typically start out with unless you had good riders. I offered again to trade off if Satin was too much, but Horseluvr was smiling. We waved at her family who had driven down to see us go by, then off we went at pace.

I had thought I was putting a Kimberwicke on Satin, but the curb was not adjusted to where it contacted so essentially she was going in a D snaffle. After some fast work, Horseluvr suggested Satin might go better in a stronger bit, and I was sorry to have put her out in such a mild bit on such a horse. But she handled Satin so very well, and had her bending and doing all sorts of things she probably had never done before. I also offered to let her try out Halla, who was going rather straight (I was proud), but it seemed she wanted to figure out one horse at a time. My take was that she could have handled Halla or Nala, since she took to Satin so well.

After our little sandy dune trail, we circled back and then it was just pure beauty, with gallops, Nala zooming all over the beach with her gorgeous gaits we all admired, splashing into the ocean, sun and sand and horses. The stuff dreams are made of.

Amore's rider kept saying Amore kept going off, but it was so difficult to pinpoint what was wrong. Was it right hind, left hind? I kept thinking her back movement seemed stiff. The rider kept trying to get Amore to work over her hind end, but Amore was resisting and going behind contact. I should have said, "Let's walk back," but we had a visitor and we were having such a lovely time! And the nagging offness was not obvious, and I knew Amore was in heat which often makes her act oddly, and I now did not believe it was the hip we thought it was last week, since I had not been able to find an issue after all kinds of prodding and flexing. 

So I hung back a bit with Amore, and we didn't push the pace but caught up now and again. We were just coming to the end of our ride, Nala and Satin went off to go in the ocean one more time, and Halla and Amore began a very slow canter. I looked back to see if Amore looked sound, which she did, and as I watched Amore went down flat on her face. We were on a perfectly flat, smooth surface, but she tripped, went to her knees, then laid out flat and tipped her rider forward onto the side of her helmet, knocking her out cold for about a minute. 

Thankfully, there was a couple in a parked car taking photos as we went by. They jumped out and I told them to call 911, and the husband called while the wife held onto Amore's reins. Nala's rider came back and grabbed Halla from me while I evaluated Amore's rider, who had come to. She was confused from her concussion and I didn't let her move her neck until the EMTs came and put her in spinal precautions. She went off in the ambulance, we walked the horses home, and then I went to the hospital. Thankfully, Amore's rider only had a mild concussion, no fractures, and went home with a slight headache. Her helmet was cracked, and the doctors said chances were she'd have had a brain bleed or fractured skull or spine without that helmet taking most of the impact. 

Last night I was blaming the Cushing's, and thinking Amore will be retired to slow walk/trot rides. I know she has been tripping more in the past year or two, and I've heard that Cushing's can cause this issue. I had not thought of her as unsafe to ride, at all. However, there is one caveat, and that is today I tried all the lameness testing I'd tried before, but added some strenuous back stretches. Amore is very sore in her loin area, and so I may try some chiropractic, hot packing (as suggested by Horseluvr) and see if her back clears. I've always known her as a hysterical type horse, and I could see if it hurt her back more to "catch" herself after a trip than to go down, that she would be the type to go down. 

I am also going to only ride her myself, and take her out more lightly if she does seem to recover fully. It's possible at her age she needs to have a lighter rider in the less than 20% of her body weight range, and I'm well under that. 

Back to the good things: It was fun to chat with Horseluvr and I wished we could have talked longer. She had lots of good experience and suggestions, I wanted to learn more from her. A couple of great things she said was that perhaps our horses were hotter from having all the green grazing all the time, and also that our 7 mile ride was "not a very long ride," which many people around here would consider way too far! So I was wishing she would move over here so we could do more fast and long rides together.


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## gottatrot

The couple on the beach who saw Amore fall down took this photo just a second before it happened:








The cracked helmet:









And some humor to lighten the mood:


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## Smilie

Advanced Cushings can have neurological complications, due to the hypertrophy involved. I had to put Einstein down, once it became difficult for him to get up
First sign, was he seemed not as co -ordinated as he should have been, in his hind end
I don't know about fast miles where we ride, but you sure could enjoy 20 to 30 mile day rides in the mountains with us!Not too many places you can lope, but often stretches in the valleys where you can long trot, esp when inspired by an approaching storm!
I am terrible for not wearing a helmet, although I have had two concussions over the years, riding, and one depressed skull fracture,the latter totally non horse related, on a hike of all things, when someone above me dislodged some rocks
The riding ones:first on that horse I borrowed, when I came home form college , and my parents had sold my horse. I did not know the horse was a bolter, thus had the choice of continuing at a dead run across the highway, or try to make a turn into that laneway, where the horse lived, at a dead run.
The horse slid in the gravel, and hit a tree. Luckily my shoulder got the worst of it!
Second time, I was training my reining mare, then 3, that I just put down, at age 30, flying lead changes, after work, in the dark and in a snowy field. She simply slipped and fell
I remembered getting back on, but nothing about the ride back home. She must have gone very carefully, My oldest son, apparently , saw us in the back yard, where he was standing on the deck, and just said, "dad you better come out here, because I asked Mom what is wrong, and all she says , is that she can't remember!'
Of course, I was carted off to emerg, and it was several hours ,until I could answer the question, 'did you fall off of the horse?" I replied , no, the horse fell'
My husband, not understanding the principles involved, said with frustration, 'what's the difference?"
Big difference to a rider, even if end results are the same!
PS, glad you like the handle Trottin', as I always try to shorten things when possible!


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## gottatrot

> (Smilie)I am terrible for not wearing a helmet, although I have had two concussions over the years, riding, and one depressed skull fracture,the latter totally non horse related, on a hike of all things, when someone above me dislodged some rocks


I recommend getting into the habit. I started after my 3rd concussion, at which point I realized I was just being stupid. As I've told friends, I know people personally who have broken neck, back, ribs, legs, arms, toes, nose, fingers and had other various contusions and injuries from riding. They are all still riding horses. But those I've heard of that have been excellent riders and had a head injury either cannot ride or else are walking on therapy horses. If it were all up to the rider's skill, I might not wear one, but horses go down unexpectedly.

I found a video of a horse that must be related to Valhalla.





This was my pondering today...as I was barely able to ride my horse using every ounce of my skill, I wondered about horses that are perhaps even hotter and how on earth do you ride them? I also wondered about what leads to people breeding these horses into the world, and how do most of them end up? 

We had unusually hot weather over the weekend, which meant everyone fled the city and came to the coast where it is about 15 degrees cooler. On the beach today there were paragliders going up and flying over our heads, umbrellas, tents, fires, dogs yapping everywhere, kids screaming, and remote control cars zipping around. We cantered Nala and Halla several miles down the beach, past many things. I briefly got off because a man was running a rather large remote control car and jumping it off ramps, and it must have been going 40 mph. I didn't trust that he would be kind enough not to shoot it over toward our horses' legs and I thought I might not survive that. 

The man acknowledged us with a wave and stopped his car, so I hopped on and we cantered away. We made it to a little trail and Halla stepped into a hole I didn't see, while staring up at a man flying low in a parasail overhead. Halla stumbled precariously for about 5 feet before righting herself. I was sitting there riding it along and thinking, "No WAY! THIS horse is going down now, on the very next ride?" But she didn't go down, and poor Nala behind us was trying to figure out what we were spooking at and what kind of spook that was. 

At the end of the trail we spotted a little side trail that swooped up and disappeared. Nala's rider said, "I wonder where that goes?" Barely thinking about it, I steered Halla over and we hopped onto the trail. Unfortunately, at the crest the dune just dropped off steeply. It was only about 10 feet down but Halla barely made it upright. Nala was right behind us and there was no way to turn around. She scrambled over but is a bigger horse and it was even more difficult for her. 

I hopped off and led Halla back up, turning her loose and catching her on the other side. I told Nala's rider I would catch Nala if she sent her over, but I barely did, catching a stirrup as she went by and yelling at her, which thankfully made her veer back so I could catch a rein. 

After all that, when we walked back onto the beach it was packed with cars and people. There were low flying kites everywhere, and hordes of screaming kids. Halla began to work up, work up, and Nala's rider wanted to let her out. We cantered a little, but then I began to struggle with being unable to let out enough energy to go faster. Halla began just working sideways, up and down like the horse in the video. It slowed us down a lot. 

Finally we got past most of the mess and I tried for 15 minutes to let some steam off Halla. Every time Nala got ahead, Halla began leaping and if I let her try to catch up she tried to put her head down and run. I corrected her several times, but she was beyond caring about that very much. Soon she began gathering herself up and hopping higher, and I could feel she was thinking about bucking me off. 








Now we were passing someone folding one of the giant paragliders on the beach, and another one took off overhead. I told Nala's rider I was sorry but had a naughty beast under me. We walked and trotted for awhile, and I kept trying to manage Halla's energy. Finally, after a few minutes the beach cleared out some and I saw from Halla's neck and jaw that she had relaxed a slight amount. I tried to let her canter a little and finally she straightened up, began breathing and deflated some more. We ended the ride fairly calmly, and as always she had her head down and walked down the last bit to the barn as slowly as an old plow horse.

I must be careful not to get a hotter horse after Valhalla, because I think I am at the limit of my skill with her sometimes.


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## Smilie

While I would not mind riding along an Ocean once or so,but the idea of never getting away from people, is not trail riding for me!
While we do ride in multi use areas at times, our favorite and best trips are into what is still true wilderness-areas set aside that you can only access by either a horse, or your own two feet!
With a strong ATV lobby, who knows how long our children can still enjoy wilderness


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## Smilie

In that video, the guy is not helping that horse get his brains together, but appears like someone that wishes to look , Macho
Short martingale, tight grip, horse often with mouth open, and sure looks like he has spurs into that horse at times 
Sorry, but example of terrible horsemanship to me, with a hot horse sure not ridden in a manner to teach relaxation, but by someone who somehow thinks it looks 'cool'
The more you hold a horse like that, the hotter and more reatcive they become


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## Smilie

In that video, the guy is not helping that horse get his brains together, but appears like someone that wishes to look , Macho
Short martingale, tight grip, horse often with mouth open, and sure looks like he has his foot, if not actual spurs into that horse at times (video is not cleAr enough to make out if he is riding with spurs or not.
Sorry, but example of terrible horsemanship to me, with a hot horse sure not ridden in a manner to teach relaxation, but by someone who somehow thinks it looks 'cool'
The more you hold a horse like that, the hotter and more reactive they become

Yes, you are of course, right about the helmet- I openly admit it, but we all take risks, in life,according to personal comfort level
I did start to wear one, riding colts , in the last years I was still starting them under saddle-yes ,accidents happen even on broke horses, but I show without a helmet, riding western, and the times I did wear one trail tiding, It just did not feel comfortable, esp in summer,although< I admit, great when it is raining, far as head covering!
I am more concerned at my age in wreaking my knee replacements, so that I won't enjoy the ability to hike and ride that I now enjoy, and might in fact, wind up in a wheel chair
Guess I'll leave this earth with a lifetime bad habit!


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## gottatrot

Smilie said:


> In that video, the guy is not helping that horse get his brains together, but appears like someone that wishes to look , Macho
> Short martingale, tight grip, horse often with mouth open, and sure looks like he has his foot, if not actual spurs into that horse at times (video is not cleAr enough to make out if he is riding with spurs or not.
> Sorry, but example of terrible horsemanship to me, with a hot horse sure not ridden in a manner to teach relaxation, but by someone who somehow thinks it looks 'cool'
> The more you hold a horse like that, the hotter and more reactive they become


I also like riding up in the mountains near here where it is secluded. The beach is where we can hop on and ride to, so that's my trail right now. Both Nala's owner and I wish we had a trailer so we could go over to the trails sometimes. I spent about 7 years recently riding in the mountains, often alone and in silence. We've been at this beach barn about a year and a half, but I have to say I'm still thrilled about it and the fun has not worn off. In the winter on many days it is still completely secluded, even on the beach. But summer weekends are the worst. Still, I am glad it is nothing like many beaches of the world where you couldn't find the space to gallop on a busy day. Plus it is good to expose the horses, I believe.

I agree the rider in the video probably feels proud of himself riding that horse. But it would be difficult for most of us to do. When I pause the video, I don't think the rider has spurs...his boots are white so it looks like he does sometimes. 
I can sympathize with the rider's plight. Every time he straightens the horse, he tanks off. He probably feels the only way to travel on the horse on the narrow parts of the road is the way he is doing it. He doesn't seem to me to be trying to get the horse worked up, he is just holding on with his legs so he won't fall off. When he turns the horse straight and takes his legs off, the horse runs.

He is lucky that the horse so far hasn't figured out how to canter sideways, but the horse might sometime. Then it becomes even more difficult. My guess is that he has figured out a way to ride this horse, and doesn't know any other way. Getting a horse that hot to relax is far easier said than done. It's easy to say that holding the horse makes them hotter, but you can't give a loose rein or the horse will run. I've spent lots of time working in a calm environment with a horse like this, and getting them to relax. Unfortunately, when you take them out and they get worked up, you get back to something like this and there is no easy way to calm them down. I give him kudos for having the horse in only a snaffle. However, he may have tried a stronger bit and made the horse panic so decided he could only keep the horse mostly controlled in a snaffle. 

It would be nice if he could find something the horse could do more calmly, and to work on periods of excitement and then calmness. If there was a way to do some running earlier in the ride, it might help the horse. Having spent the last year working on getting Halla to go straight and calmly more of the time and excited and sideways less of the time, I can say it is a long process to build on the periods of time when the horse can stay calm and on a loose rein in an exciting setting.


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## Smilie

Well, he is doing what works for him,w here he is riding, but I am way past riding any horse that does not care where he places his feet!
That one ex stud that I have written about, could get hot on a trail partly by his breeding, and also by the fact that a 'reining trainer', where I sent him, when pregnant', to just put a good spin and flying changes on him, as I had Classie going well, fried his brain
If something got him 'hot', he could practically lope in place, doing every other stride flying changes, unasked. Annoying on the straight, downright dangerous, coming off a mountain!
The fact that he has a tight running martingale on, and is really hanging on the mouth of that horse, does not help, but just fuels him some more
Is it better then rearing or bucking, when held back? Perhaps slightly, but not much !
he needs to find a good plowed field and let that sucker run, until he begs to stop, while letting go of his mouth!
As I was once told, 'you can ride as fast as he can run!'


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## gottatrot

We were able to run out a Paint, and a Mustang and cure them of trying to take off. As you said, when they ran we waited until they wanted to stop and then pushed them on. This was surprising to them and made them psychologically not want to run off in case we wouldn't let them stop. 

I haven't found this technique to work with many horses that have the mental and physical capacity to do endurance. Halla has gone for 16 miles while still trying to run faster and we never reached her "bottom." I don't think I could physically run her to where she wanted to stop. As a rider I can go as fast as she can, but I won't hurt a horse to teach them a lesson, and there are horses you could easily injure by letting them go as far as their mind would take them. 
Halla also does those flying changes when she gets excited about going faster. It helps let some of her energy out as they require some strength and keeps her speed down.

Judging by how long the horse managed to stay in a state of excitement on the video, which would exhaust many horses, I am guessing that horse could run for many miles and still be asking to run some more. 

Calming these horses is more of a long process in my experience, and it begins with making sure the horse is comfortable physically, has turnout, mental and social stimulation with other horses, and not getting calories to the point of being overweight. Of all these strategies I've found diet changes to be the least effective. Then expose the horse on a regular basis to the environment where they will be ridden. Another big factor is finding a bit the horse respects but that also does not make the horse feel trapped or claustrophobic. 

The little Arab, Satin is just starting out again after some years off work and I believe she will become more calm over time than either Nala or Halla. We haven't yet found the right bit for her, and she doesn't get enough riding. 

Nala, after a year of good riding no longer bucks, her spooks are more manageable and her rider can have her just trot when asked and relax over the last quarter of a ride very well.

Halla, after a year of work can go straight for about 75% of a ride and keep her mind working well unless the outside stimulation becomes too much. She can go on a loose rein for periods of time, and will walk calmly when asked almost every time.

I think you can expect miracles with these horses, but that is only dreaming. It is my opinion that you can manage hot horses in the wrong way, but you can't turn a mellow horse into a hot one just by running them a lot or keep a hot horse from becoming over excited just by never letting them run. I've taken out numerous Arabs and TBs that we galloped regularly and they were happy to slow down when asked, and calmed down immediately after a gallop. But some are not wired that way, and find working extremely exciting and sometimes they lose their brain altogether. We happen to have three of that type going out right now. Satin is the least spooky and slightly more sane than the others.

These are good horses too, and can be some of the best, but you have to put in lots of work and when you ride them you can never just sit there and look at the scenery.


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## Dehda01

You need to out smart arabs, not expect to tire them out. I find lots of transitions and lateral work gets their mind back to me back on the trail and in the ring. My guys are fit enough to do 25 miles right now. By the end of the season, 50 miles isn't out of the question for my HA. He doesn't have a bottom. My horses are endurance bred. You won't tire them out, but you can out think them


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## Zexious

I would love the opportunity to trail ride on the beach--or at all, for that matter! H/J riding keeps things pretty restricted to the ring or property, unless other people are willing to share their mounts or I shell out the cash to rent one  
So I'm definitely jealous and would love more pictures of your beach riding!

In regards to hot horses, I agree with the above. It's not a matter of running them out, it's a matter of redirecting their energy and focus into something positive. I think this can be said for more than just Arabs, but all 'hot,' athletic breeds and individuals. Not all riders yet have the skill or the knowledge to refocus an animal; not all riders have the desire to have this 'conversation' with an animal. 

For me, it sort of depends on what I'm doing. Sometimes, you need that energy and power. Other times, it's excessive and unnecessary.


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## gottatrot

Some pictures from last Thursday. Not sure if the two on the left want their faces public, so blocked them out. We thought it was a hot day, but our friend from Arizona wore a jacket. 
Left to right: Amore, Satin, Halla, Nala.









Halla led down the trail:









On top of the dunes:









Down by the estuary:









Halla's right shoulder has developed so much from the straighter work that I tried a treed dressage saddle on her today. It didn't slip at all and she went very straight! The people from the city had gone home, there were no kites or remote control cars or fires today. Consequently, Halla and Nala did lots of galloping and I let Halla completely loose to hit top speed for about 1/4 mile. It felt beautiful. 

The horses were so mentally tired from the stimulation yesterday that they never tried to pull and we were able to let them go fast. We did get chased by a Chihuahua mix, I tried to outrun him but that little dang dog was getting so far from his owner I had to stop and try to turn him back. The owner had to get in the car and drive to where we were in order to catch him!


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## Smilie

Yes, I agree that management plays a major role with any horse
That stud I wrote about, that my stepdad bought me, was an Anglo Arabian
As I have said, you can ride any horse out, but great trail horses are born, just like for any other discipline .
Endurance riding is not recreational trail riding, nor does everyone have the time to put on a horse, with that energy requirement to go the distance, to channel that energy in a positive direction
If I can't relax and enjoy the scenery, trusting my horse, then what's the point?

Give me a horse like this any day, to trail ride. I do not wish to condition endurance horses
There is asmart, and there is just palin over reactive





Just, that horse in the video is hot, but the rider is also not doing one constructive thing riding the horse, and frankly looks like a Yahoo type rider. Hot and sensitive horses need a calm sensible rider, and not someone that brings out the worst in them
You might be surprised as to how hot , or 'no brains home', some stock horses can be also. I gelded an expensive athletic stud, for that very reason. One foal crop was enough, as they all were hot and reactive
He could win, if you rode the 's't out of him=from reining to trail, HUS, but try showing him in trail first thing in the morning, even after a good warm up, and he would demolish the trail course
He signed his leaving papers, after he was gelded. I was riding him out, and he spooked and reared, just for fun, at a grain bin, and when he was up about as high as he could rear, he leaped forward. Don't need, nor admire that type of athletic ability!


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## Smilie

Looks like you had a nice ride!
All that sand is an invitation to gallop! Not much chance of tripping or going over an edge either.


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## Smilie

Charlie is hot enough, for places like this. I am wearing a helmet, as this was her first mountain ride



On my bucket list, is to ride along the surf of an ocean, Oregon is very pretty. Many moons ago, drove from Vancouver to LA, along the coast, and spent a night in Portland


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## gottatrot

Smilie said:


> Hot and sensitive horses need a calm sensible rider, and not someone that brings out the worst in them...
> You might be surprised as to how hot , or 'no brains home', some stock horses can be also.


Agree. And oh yes, I've met some of those hot stock horses that were bred for barrel racing. And if you call a mostly Thoroughbred that looks just like a Thoroughbred but is technically an "Appendix" QH, I knew one that was the hottest horse I've ever met. I personally wouldn't call her a "stock" horse, myself. To me, "stock" is a type, and a horse that looks like a Thoroughbred with long, lanky legs, lean muscling and even a TB head is not a stock horse. Especially since that horse could outrun Thoroughbreds over long distances, not just sprints, and keep galloping for miles. 

I've also met some stock horses that are very sensitive and over react. In general, they retain the ability to calm down faster rather than staying worked up, and also they often don't have the mental endurance to run very fast for more than a quarter mile or half mile. Both of these things are helpful if you are trying to train a horse that is reactive.

That extreme trail course looks very fun to ride. What a nice horse.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

As I said in PM, just got back from the insane road trip last night and had a hectic day today. I didn't get to catch up on reading everything in here yet.

I think that you praise me too much Gottatrot! :lol: I'm not sure I'm as good as you make me out to be. Me and Satin were battling the whole time. I had a blast though, especially taking her through the water. I felt like I was riding some kind of sea creature when she did her prancy trot through the waves, all that water flying up around us. I was keeping mind to your tack though, I didn't want to get it drenched so tried to avoid too much splashing. If Satin hadn't been the horse equivalent of a ghost pepper, I would have wanted to take the tack off and try my hand at swimming. Rather cold for that though... lol speaking on the jacket, 'better safe than sorry!' I have thin blood, so I'd rather sweat a bit than be cold.

I laughed about Satin's name later, after you told me the story about her previous teenage owner who thought she was a devil horse. Did you notice how 'Satin' sounds very similar to 'Satan'?! :rofl:
My family dubbed her a 'wild arabian', saying I rode a wild arabian on the beach. Me thinks they exaggerate just a bit? :wink:

Anyway, I have to thank you for fulfilling one of my lifetime dreams. That was an amazing, completely unforgettable experience. I couldn't believe I got to ride on the beach, and really ride, not be stuck in a tourist trail ride walking in a line.

My thoughts and prayers are with Amore's rider. I am so glad that it wasn't more serious than it was. 

You are welcome to come ride here in AZ. I can guarantee that our horses might bore you a bit :lol: I'm sure my Shan would give you a fun challenge though, keeping her yielding to the leg and riding nice in the arena. Our trail rides are pretty low key though. Lots of trotting, some short canters. Plenty of mountains to climb though!


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> I think that you praise me too much Gottatrot! :lol: I'm not sure I'm as good as you make me out to be. Me and Satin were battling the whole time. I had a blast though, especially taking her through the water. I felt like I was riding some kind of sea creature when she did her prancy trot through the waves, all that water flying up around us. I was keeping mind to your tack though, I didn't want to get it drenched so tried to avoid too much splashing.


I hope you had some great views down the coast! Was very nice weather. Every good rider battles with Satin the whole time, LOL. That's how you know you're good...otherwise she just has her way with you and the rider has to get off. 

Satin definitely is some kind of sea creature, which is why Amore ran from her several weeks ago when she came splashing out of the ocean!
But I should have told you, I believe tack is for riding in, and if we can't use it, why have it? So I hope you didn't think too much about that. 


horseluvr2524 said:


> I laughed about Satin's name later, after you told me the story about her previous teenage owner who thought she was a devil horse. Did you notice how 'Satin' sounds very similar to 'Satan'?! :rofl:
> My family dubbed her a 'wild arabian', saying I rode a wild arabian on the beach.


Yes, she is the perfect horse for a young and inexperienced girl to start out with, right? I think it is funny how close her name is to "Satan," but love that little devil horse. She's one of those horses I call "a handful and a half." 

We were all so glad you had a good time. I saw Amore's rider at work last night, she's recovered and is now talking about what horse she is going to buy for herself soon. Hopefully she will board at our barn. She is one of those that having a fall doesn't put her off horses. 

I would love to ride in AZ sometime. Horses are never boring, there's always challenges to deal with. I saw some pictures of the Superstition mountains and they look like a beautiful place to ride. So now I am jealous of you. 

Amore has this huge knot on one side of her back in the lumbar area, I have no idea how I didn't see it sooner, and I would never have had her out otherwise. When I push on it, she buckles. The vet told me if Amore had neuro changes from a tumor causing her Cushing's, she would have other neuro issues like personality change, general lack of balance when walking, and more. She suspected arthritis instead, which made me do all this limb flexing and deep palpation and that's how I discovered the giant knot in Amore's back. 
I am hoping massage and body work will get it to heal up, otherwise the vet will have to come check her spine. It almost looks like she went down on a rock when trying to roll in the pasture. Maybe it was more bruising and such until I made her go out and work, and then it caused muscle spasms and developed the big knot.


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## horseluvr2524

I told my new BO about the amazing time I had with you all, and her first reaction was "Oh God, you don't want an arabian now do you?" :rofl: I assured her that I was perfectly happy with the horse I have.
Don't get me wrong, I love all horses and certainly am not put off riding Satin again. But there is something about AZ Arabian die-hards. Its like you mix the brain frying AZ sun with the stress of handling such a high energy, anxious animal, and for some reason they are a bit off their rocker. I didn't want to believe the bias about die-hard Arabian owners (must have Arabian) until a few of them turned on me totally crazy.

OK, sorry, random rant. Gottatrot, obviously you do not fall into this category. You are not off your rocker-in fact, you've got a very nice rocker that you seem to sit in so comfortably! :lol:

I think I need to take your POV on tack with my 20yr old Niedersuss dressage. It has two spongy wear marks on the seat, and I get anxious over every little scrape. I don't show. I should probably chill out and just continue taking as good of care of it as I can. It is 20yrs old, after all.

You might be shocked, but I haven't ridden the Supers much. They are absolutely beautiful, but all of the mexican drug cartel, missing people (either got lost and died or shot by the drug cartel), treacherous passes and trails, and how easy it is to get lost in them, was a bit off putting, in addition I didn't know anyone who rode in them regularly. However, I think its time I started exploring them, I've gotten bored with the same old trails in our area. I'll have to make DH a rifle holster for the saddle, lol.

So by the time you come out this winter, I'll be all familiarized and know what trails are the best! (lol, hint hint).

Glad to hear that K is fully recovered! That would be awesome if she brought her new horse to your barn. I don't see why not, who else would be as much fun to ride with? :wink:

Yikes! I hope Amore recovers without any lasting problems. I'm having a chiro/acupressure/raiki lady work on Shan tomorrow as she is still lame. The lady happens to board at the barn and isn't really expensive at all, so I figured its worth a shot.

BTW, I had a thought on the 'long rides' thing. We have many, many people, some of them winter visitors from other states, who will come and ride for 4-6 hours. Pretty much all walking, but by that time I'm sore and bored! lol.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> I told my new BO about the amazing time I had with you all, and her first reaction was "Oh God, you don't want an arabian now do you?" I assured her that I was perfectly happy with the horse I have.


This cracks me up! Of course I admit I try to convert people...but honestly, I can see why Arabs are not for everyone. What I find more funny is that people insist that Arabs are not nuts, they only get a bad rap, they just need the right training... Definitely there are some calm and steady ones out there, I've ridden some. But many are just plain hot, goofy, spooky, and I see no reason to deny it. 
Saying those things doesn't mean I value them any less, or that I don't ride them. 
And I have met some very crazy die-hard Arab people too, some of which can't ride or handle their own horses.

But I have to say I am not a die-hard Arab person. Even though I own two, I did not plan to have a second Arab until Halla fell into my lap. There are so many wonderful breeds and crosses out there, and a good horse is a good horse. A good Thoroughbred is a wonderful horse. A good Mustang is a wonderful horse. I would happily steal either of Bondre's beautiful horses. I'm not sure what my next horse will be. 


horseluvr2524 said:


> I think I need to take your POV on tack with my 20yr old Niedersuss dressage. It has two spongy wear marks on the seat, and I get anxious over every little scrape. I don't show. I should probably chill out and just continue taking as good of care of it as I can. It is 20yrs old, after all.


Hmm...that's tricky. Those are beautiful saddles. 
Now I'm thinking the Superstitions sound a bit scary. Be safe if you go out there!


horseluvr2524 said:


> BTW, I had a thought on the 'long rides' thing. We have many, many people, some of them winter visitors from other states, who will come and ride for 4-6 hours. Pretty much all walking, but by that time I'm sore and bored! lol.


I hear what they say about endurance riders is not that they ride too long, but that they go "too far, too fast." Probably other people ride long distances, but maybe don't trot and canter most of the way. 
When I first started looking into endurance riding, I couldn't believe the pace. But if you walked for 50 miles it would take forever!


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## horseluvr2524

I love and appreciate all horses, and you definitely are not a crazy arab die-hard, lol. Just so the rest of you know, Gottatrot is definitely one of the sweetest people you will ever meet!

Anywhere out here can be dangerous. @bsms is closer to the border than I am. Curious if you've ever run into any human/illegal related issues on your rides?

I PROMISE I will get those pictures to you soon  They are in DH's email. I might have time tomorrow. Things have just been nutty since we got back.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> But I have to say I am not a die-hard Arab person. Even though I own two, I did not plan to have a second Arab until Halla fell into my lap. There are so many wonderful breeds and crosses out there, and a *good horse is a good horse. * A good Thoroughbred is a wonderful horse. A good Mustang is a wonderful horse. I would happily steal either of Bondre's beautiful horses. I'm not sure what my next horse will be.


I agree with you there on the breed front. So many lovely horses out there, and if you're fixed on one or two breeds you can miss out. Also an equine mutt can be just as good a horse as a purebred. I think it's easier to think of breeds that I would NOT want to own than the opposite - the list would be much shorter ;-) .

Such a compliment to my two to want to sneak them out from under my nose - thank-you! If I ever had to sell Macarena - which I very much doubt, but you never know - I would need to find her an owner like you that understands this sort of horse. But I suspect shipping to Oregon would be prohibitively expensive lol.

I'm glad you and Horseluvr had a good ride. It's wonderful when the forum brings horse people together and they get to meet each other's horses and ride together. Oregon is a bit far for me, and livestock farming is not a profession that offers many opportunities for upping and going. But I remember you have ridden all over the world (Japan sticks in my mind) so I guess you travel widely in your vacations. If you ever plan to travel in Spain, make a detour down to my dry and unattractive part of the world to take a spin on Macarena.


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## gottatrot

Ditto, @horseluvr2524, happy to hang out with you anytime!
_____________________________________________________
Bondre, I hope we will make it to Spain someday and if we do, I would love to take you up on a ride. Yes, my husband does not have my "grande passion" for horses but loves travel, so we try to go somewhere every couple of years. I heard about the place we rode in Australia on the forum, and it was a very nice stable with a good guide who led me for a fast gallop on a lovely TB. 








______________________________________________________

Now, onto the interesting topic of horse safety, and BSMS' points about helmets.
It is interesting to think about risk and perceived risk with horses, and what measures people take to be safer.

For me personally, to not wear a helmet would be idiotic. For me it’s not just “perceived” risk, but rather actual risk. The types of horses we ride, the settings we ride in create a true risk of injury. For me it is not something that might happen, it is something that has happened many times. To try to work on my gear and make things safer seems obvious, because even with the best gear we still cannot eliminate all the risk.

In some worlds, I believe the risk of head injury is small. For many people it would take a seriously freak accident to land on their head. If you’re only walking in an arena on an unflappable horse, you may be more likely to be hit by lightning than to land on your head. 

In my world, horses go down with riders. Horses buck, rear, bolt, spook and I myself have gone down with horses at the walk, trot and canter. I have also observed others go down with horses at walk, trot and canter. Horses slip and horses fall. They get tangled up in bushes. 
In my world, horses almost go down but right themselves, and this flings the rider off like a slingshot. If you’ve ever landed across a ditch thinking the dirt was dry but it was slick as snot, the horse’s shoulder can drop to within an inch of the ground, and the horse can sometimes still right themselves but I’ve not ever seen a rider yet that wasn’t hurled onto the ground. In my world, sometimes when riders fall off they hit their heads on rocks or sides of barns or logs. 

People I know personally have gone over backwards with horses, have split their helmets in two on rocks, have had horses run over and roll over the top of them. Since I ride all of these same horses myself, I want to be as safe as possible. 

In my world, getting injured by a horse is not only possible, it is only a matter of when and how badly. I don’t like being on horses around people who aren’t wearing helmets (although I often am), because I not only have observed serious accidents happen, I’ve also been part of many resuscitations and have seen people both survive and not survive the things that happen to them in the world. 

I have been there wondering if the person laying on the ground in front of me is going to keep breathing, is going to be able to move and feel their limbs, or if they are going to die right there. While I am calm and capable, I don’t enjoy this part of riding even though the person has a better chance of surviving with a trained and experienced nurse there to resuscitate them, and I sometimes imagine the worst that hasn’t yet happened in my world and wish I could avoid being that one who is there to try and fail to save a friend. I want to say there was nothing that could have been done, rather than to feel that this tragedy might have been prevented. 

If you have been there, seeing how a beautiful day changes in a second and the horse slips, throws, and then runs over the top of your best friend and you hear the sickening thud of hooves hitting flesh, feeling the terrible conviction this damage must be unfixable, you will understand. If you’ve been there trying to wake someone up as the seconds drag on, hoping and praying they didn’t sever their spinal column, that they don’t have a massive head bleed, and then feel the shocking relief that they are going to be OK, then you know what I mean. 

Today was an average day. As we galloped a couple of miles, my eyes scanned the sand watching for hidden holes that might have been lightly covered over by the wind. At this speed, you must always be on the alert. You have to plan your steering far enough in advance to avoid large objects, shadows, anything that could be a hazard. 

Later when we were walking, a bald eagle perched on a stick right in our path. I tried to frighten him into flight but he wouldn’t move, and soon we were only 15 feet away. It worried me that the horses might not see him, he was so still. We have had horses spook terribly when eagles or herons take off, with their huge wingspans. Making a quick decision, I hopped off and waved my arms. He did not move until I was 5 feet away, and then took to the air. The horses blinked. They had spooked more over the puddles in the path on our forest trail. 








On the way home, it began to rain and then hailed, pelting us with stinging ice. My reins became slippery as we grew drenched, and my stirrups became a bit treacherous too. Meanwhile, the horses thought it best to keep a good pace toward home, and it was rather miserable so I tended to agree. I could no longer see the sand, much less watch for holes or hazards, but we made it in fine. 

Well, riding is dangerous. Any adventures are, and I’ve almost died a couple times on vacations that became too adventurous (do NOT drive at night in Western Australia, do NOT try to cross a creek up to your waist if it washes into a riptide in the ocean). If you want to have adventures every day, you accept risk but hopefully also try to mitigate some of it. 
I have a pair of Macwet gloves coming in the mail to help with grip in wet conditions:








Also a pair of these stirrup pads, Nala's rider has them and loves the grip:


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## gottatrot

The forum wouldn't recognize my password and I think somehow my requests for a new one weren't going through since I originally registered a long time ago with a now defunct e-mail address. 

My favorite thing to do when I've been working and riding hard is to sit on my couch and rest my sore muscles while browsing the forum.
After three days of waiting to hear from the forum admin, after spending two days cleaning the garage and riding 17 miles, I finally am too sore to move well so couldn't take it anymore and re-registered. My name is fairly unique, so it's obviously still me.

Yesterday was one of the best rides - just amazing. Nala's rider and I went 9 miles. We took the horses farther north on the beach than usual, went off onto a popular hiking trail and over three long wooden bridges which the horses crossed very boldly. Then we went through a neighborhood, past a lake, back through a woodsy trail and then home via the beach. The ride had all types of obstacles and frightening objects. When we first hit the beach we galloped the horses a solid 1.5 miles, then cantered steadily for another mile. We took the trails slowly and then cantered back home about two miles when we hit the beach. The long gallop was the first time I've had Halla "blowing" in the past few months, so we definitely added to the horses' fitness levels. 

What I call "blowing" is when a horse is breathing audibly for a few seconds after slowing down. One of my good friends believes this is just as reliable of a gauge for how a horse is doing as a heart rate monitor. She says (as a joke), "Ride your horse until he sounds like he's going to blow up and then it's time to stop." We don't ever ride horses _that_ hard, but we listen carefully to their breathing. Loud breathing to me is a sign a horse is working hard, and it's time to rein in. If the horse is not "blowing" when I pull up, then the next time we go a little farther or faster. I didn't hear Halla blow until right at the end of a mile and a half. 








_The water was this color today_​
Today we took Satin out with Rebel's owner riding. The Waterford bit is magical for Satin, as I suspected it might be. She is a puller, and the bit lightened her up. Unfortunately, we had a little detour. We cantered only about 1/4 mile and the horses hadn't yet settled into a good gait when there was a large word written in the sand just in front of my path. Often I go around such things, because they can apparently appear 3D to horses and cause them to swerve. Today Halla looked at the word, and then I made the mistake of looking at it to read what it said. 

"Kevin," I read, as Halla planted her right front foot, pulled up hard and leaped to the left. Finding myself off balance to the right on my saddle, I shoved my weight left. Unfortunately, Halla had followed my balance to the right so I basically threw myself off the saddle. It was a familiar feeling, leaving the saddle, so I turtled it and landed on my left side and back. Leaping up, I saw that Halla had run toward the dunes and was considering whether she should leave or stay.

I cajoled her very sweetly to please stay. She headed up the dunes and disappeared. I told my buddies that hopefully she was standing confused up top so they should stay down while I ran up after her. At the top, the grass was too tall and I couldn't even see a horse head above the waving grasses. I ran back to the top of the hill and motioned for Satin's rider to come up. Satin mistook the rider's signal and bolted up the hill, Nala following close behind. I asked if they could see Halla from atop their horses, but they couldn't so I signaled for them to head back the way we'd come while I ran straight toward the posh neighborhood in front of us in case Halla had taken a straight line home.

I'm a runner, in good shape to run for miles. But every time I've sprinted off after a disappearing horse I've noticed it is much harder to run in boots, half chaps, helmet and jeans, so I made it about 1/4 mile before I was "blowing." A helpful woman was weeding the spacious grounds outside her fancy house and saw me running, 
"It ran that way!" A moment later, she came up behind me in her truck and asked if I wanted to hop in the bed. I hopped in and she drove me a block to where my friends were sitting on their horses, watching Halla a few dozen yards away. This time when I sweet talked Halla she stood still and let me gather her reins and hop back on. 

So we thanked the nice lady and went out again. 
This time I avoided the writing in the sand, and all went well. Satin's rider had not been on such a long ride with us, and she said even though Satin was in shape, her own legs were shaking after the first long canter. When we came back around the point and let the horses loose, galloping a half mile, Satin's rider couldn't stop talking about how it felt. Using words like "floating," and "magic," and "power." Words fall short...there are none to describe galloping full out on a horse. I think the best way to know about it is to look in the rider's eyes and you can see something there that goes deeper than words. 






_Someone took this photo of rainbow behind clouds around here this week​_Amore's back has loosened up with all the massage I've been doing over the past week. It does seem that it was an injury to her back that caused all the problems. I've ponied her and lunged her, and could see the stiffness returning slightly with the work. After massaging it out the stiffness went away again. She's moving freely in the pasture and I haven't seen any tripping. I hope to do some light riding after another week or two to see how she does. I've been using this back massager:


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## bsms

Some years ago, I read an ad on Craigslist. It went, "Has anyone seen a paint horse, about 14.2, last seen bucking and snorting and headed toward Mexico?"

A few days later, it was followed with, "Thanks to the wonderful person who found and calmed my paint horse, and took good care of him and called me"!


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## horseluvr2524

@Gottatrot1

Sounds like you've had an adventure, as per usual :wink:

My own mare is still struggling with recurring lameness. Sound as could be at the walk, including a fast 'power' walk, but anything faster and she is immediately off. I had one of the boarders at my new barn work on her, she does acupressure/chiro/raiki. Its been a week, and while she is much better than she was, the results were not magic like I hoped. I'm really hoping I didn't waste my money and thinking I should have called my regular chiro guy. Its the new barn pressure, as I call it, to use whoever they use and whatever supplements they use. Vet, farrier, PT... etc.

Anyway, I've started Shan on a joint supplement. I will let you know how that goes. Is Amore on anything like that?


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## Zexious

Love keeping up with your adventures! <3 That rainbow photo is particularly stunning.

Before I retired Gator I used a similar back massager for him--it seemed to help.

Hopefully you get your password sorted out!


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## Bondre

Gottatrot1 said:


> My favorite thing to do when I've been working and riding hard is to sit on my couch and rest my sore muscles while browsing the forum.
> After three days of waiting to hear from the forum admin, after spending two days cleaning the garage and riding 17 miles, I finally am too sore to move well so couldn't take it anymore and re-registered. My name is fairly unique, so it's obviously still me.


Not being able to log in caught me by surprise too as I hasn't bothered to read the admin thread. Took me two days to get back in to my account. Sorry to hear you've had to start a new account - are you sure you need to use your original email address to get your new password for your old user name? 

Looking on the bright side of being offline for a few days - at least you got the garage cleaned! The evils of forums that occupy too much free time lol. 



Gottatrot1 said:


> I cajoled her very sweetly to please stay. She headed up the dunes and disappeared. I told my buddies that hopefully she was standing confused up top so they should stay down while I ran up after her. At the top, the grass was too tall and I couldn't even see a horse head above the waving grasses..... This time when I sweet talked Halla she stood still and let me gather her reins and hop back on.


She couldn't just let herself be caught first off - that would be a stain on her honour of Arabian. ;-) You have to sweat a bit before your get your horse back - although the nice lady with the truck gave you an advantage that Halla hadn't counted on. 



Gottatrot1 said:


> Words fall short...there are none to describe galloping full out on a horse. I think the best way to know about it is to look in the rider's eyes and you can see something there that goes deeper than words.


It's something every rider should have the chance to do. One gallop and you're hooked for life.


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## gottatrot

Back to Gottatrot thanks to some help from Tinyliny!


> *BSMS*: Some years ago, I read an ad on Craigslist. It went, "Has anyone seen a paint horse, about 14.2, last seen bucking and snorting and headed toward Mexico?"
> 
> A few days later, it was followed with, "Thanks to the wonderful person who found and calmed my paint horse, and took good care of him and called me"!


:rofl: 




























Amore was napping when I got to the barn this evening. It's rare I see her standing still, much less lying down so it was a treat. 
Her back has improved so much...thinking of doing an easy walking ride this week if all goes well.

@horseluvr2524 - I do not have Amore on a joint supplement now and would be interested to hear what you are using. I was feeding Trifecta vitamins for awhile that had 5,000 mg of MSM, 5,000 mg of Glucosamine and 100 mg of Hyaluronic Acid per dose. However, it was easier to balance the other vitamins and minerals using a combo of supplements from Smartpak and I hadn't seen signs of arthritis yet so I stopped them over a year ago. Might be a good idea to put her back on those at age 25. 



> _*Bondre*_: She couldn't just let herself be caught first off - that would be a stain on her honour of Arabian. You have to sweat a bit before you get your horse back..


Too true!!

Best quote of the week from a friend who rode Satin with us several days ago (posted on Facebook):


> 2 weeks ago I went for a 5 mile hike at 3 a.m., with a 1600 ft elevation gain over 2.5 miles (that's steep). Although it was great cardio and I burned a bazillion calories, I had ZERO muscle soreness.
> 2 days ago I went for a 9 mile ride on the beach, 80% of which was spent at the trot, canter or gallop. My entire body is screaming.
> So recap: 3 hour hike up a mountain? No problem. 1 hour in 2-point? Every fiber in my body is traumatised.
> Now tell me again how riding horses isn't a good workout?


Satin is the horse @horseluvr2524 recently rode out with us.


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## gottatrot

Have to share some photos of our riding buddy, Nala. She is a granddaughter of Seattle Slew and it is a privilege to ride out with her and her excellent rider.

Although I am partial to Arabians, sometimes I think of this quote:


> The best of any breed is the Thoroughbred horse, the best of that breed is better than any other breed. ~_George Morris_



























On Halla, we canter alongside this trot regularly. It is very fast.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

I put her on AniMed Glucosamine 5000. From what I read, that and an AniMed MSM supplement is just as good as the most expensive brand of joint care available. I like it-$17 for a 2-3 month supply. Doesn't eat a hole in my pocket, which is great. There were lots of reviews from people with older horses, who said their horses were moving just as good if not better than they did in their teens.

I'm going to see how my girl does first, then maybe add MSM later.

LOL! I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one sore after riding Satin, that little spitfire :wink:

I hate to agree with George Morris as I love my mustang, but that horse I told you about TL is such an amazing ride.


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## Bondre

Gorgeous photos of Nala! Especially the second one with the reflection. And Amore is very cute lying down. She looks much chunkier like that than she does in her action photos. I'm glad to hear that she's feeling better with your massage work.


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## gottatrot

Today was our annual parade we do with the mini horses. In the past we've been clowns, dairy maids, and done other themes, this year we were pirates. 

It went very well. We always have an uneasy moment or two each year due to the unpredictability of crowds, low helicopters flying overhead, prop failure, etc. The horses have all been in the parade at least three times, even the younger ones, so are getting more seasoned.

I was driving the feisty little black mare and also holding my Papillon on my lap, so had my hands full. A local business owner passed out corn dogs as we were going by on the road just before the parade started. I couldn't quite manage holding the dog's leash, the reins, and keeping the corn dog safe so my little dog made off with some big bites of corn dog. He's 7 lbs but I think got a good third of the dog. I was eating it as fast as I could to keep him from eating too much and getting sick, my friend saw this and said later she thought I was just really hungry. 

The minis are very patient about things like wearing hats and beads in their manes, and having fake dreadlocks flopping around their heads. However, right at the end of the parade someone in the crowd lost a pirate hat which rolled right under the team of minis. The little girl driving used to own the two minis before moving away and giving them to my friends, which is why she was driving them with some help from her dad. However, she is young and has no experience so when the team bolted we were suddenly thinking we were about to see a wreck. Thankfully, the minis got confused by the busy scene and noises so slammed on the brakes after about 10 feet and the girl's dad caught their bridles. 

















The video is not very good quality, sorry. I forgot my camera for the sixth or seventh time.


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## gottatrot

Some other fun parades from past years:

*Milk Maids:*








*Angels:*
(No corn dogs for the pup this year)








*Clowns:*


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## gottatrot

My friends always let me drive the only mare, Star since I love her best. She can be a little tricky. 
As they say:


















We got the trophy over the the rodeo queens, barrel racing club and Clydesdales - I know the judges think we're cute, but these guys are gorgeous:


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## Bondre

The minis are cute, I love all the different fancy dress themes you've done. And those Clydesdales - stunning! 

I just came across a photo of three huge Clydesdales on fb. Confusing because it stated that they measure 18,7hh and 18,8hh respectively. And I thought 18hh was big! So just HOW big is 18,8? 8" bigger than 18hh? Or is this just a misinformed way of saying "pretty d*** huge"?


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## knightrider

Those minis are AWESOME!


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## gottatrot

*My Personal Riding Techniques:*

It is interesting to think about "how to ride." First, I believe there are different correct ways to ride for different people, horses, and for what you are doing with the horse. 

The first thing you have to consider is how the horse has been trained, and how to use yourself in a way the horse understands so you can communicate. For instance, I've ridden horses that were trained if your weight came out of the saddle, they should slow down. So a person had to sit down and back in the saddle on the seat bones or the horse became confused. I've also ridden horses that have only had the rider keep the leg "off." I've ridden horses that only knew how to go with steady bit contact, and others that you couldn't contact the bit except for a light touch here and there.

For myself, I have some goals: 
1) Do not interfere with the horse's movement or create soreness by my riding. 
2) Be very secure regardless of (almost) anything the horse does. 3) Use my body in a way that joints, tendons or bones do not become too damaged or sore (only sore muscles) from riding. 
4) Be able to use the parts of my body independently at any speed. For instance, when galloping can I shorten the rein one inch, lift or lower my hand, cue and release with the bit, turn the horse with my seat and legs. 
5) Be in balance with the horse's motion

I've picked up my riding techniques a little at a time over the years, here and there finding pieces that are incredibly important. Some books and instructors will start at your hairline and tell you how every part of your body should be, from soft looking eyes to a relaxed jaw and supple toes. Having spent time working on these things, I can tell you they are unimportant. There are a few seriously important factors when riding, and your eyeballs are among the least important. 

Here are my riding techniques:
1) Your upper arms belong to your torso. They should remain nearby and not be stretching behind you, flapping out to the side, or reaching out stiffly in front. This was a key element of riding my instructors never sank into my brain and I had to figure it out on my own. You shouldn't press your arms into your torso, but they should hang at your sides. I had instructors tell me not to hold my reins down by my lap, or that my reins were too short, but they never mentioned that it's not the reins that are at fault, it's the upper arms. One instructor told me to ride from my shoulders, but that's not correct either. 

Keeping your upper arms next to your torso helps you do two things: it keeps you from being pulled "out" of your core balance, and it also helps you learn how to lengthen and shorten the reins with your hands rapidly instead of using your arms to change the rein length. This helps you keep your rein cues confined to a movement of your hands that is only a few inches forward and back, no matter what the horse is doing.

2) It doesn't matter how much lean you have with your torso, whether forward or slightly back as long as you don't "hunch" over but instead keep your back in a fairly straight line and bend at the hips. Good body mechanics require that you neither arch your back or try to round out the lumbar spine (as some dressage instructors say to do), but instead allow for the natural (and shock absorbing) curve you have normally. 

3) Your pelvis should be vertical, not tilting forward or back. This is separate from you leaning forward or back from the hips. It has to do with keeping your torso as one unit versus bending at the belly button. You must also sit evenly on the horse from side to side so the saddle is straight and your weight equal in both stirrups.

4) When you sit on the horse, your hips should sit at their natural angle for the width of the horse and your anatomy. The part of your leg touching the horse will be the back and inside of the thigh and the back and inside of the calf. Your toe angle should match your thigh angle, so your joints are lined up and mechanically stable. Your weight should go down into the stirrup, which sits on whatever part of the foot it is comfortable to put weight into whether that be ball or midfoot. Your hip, knee and ankle joints should be loosely flexed so you could stand on the stirrup and balance out of the saddle. 

The stirrup length is the shortest length that does not make your feet, ankles and knees sore over speed and distance. Which may be quite long, depending on many factors. Your legs do not grip the horse, but slide up and down with a little friction as the horse moves at different gaits. You should have enough weight in the stirrups that they do not ever shift on the bottoms of your feet unless you take a bit of weight off and move them with your foot. 

5) Always ride from and remain connected with your core. Your core balances over the horse's center of gravity. You slow the horse by bringing the rein or reins back toward your core and using the strength of your legs and body weight into the stirrups. Your core in balance with the horse helps the horse use his body more athletically and keeps him from getting sore.

Some things you will notice I don't mention. It doesn't matter how you hold the reins as long as you have the ability to lengthen and shorten them at will. It doesn't matter if you bend your wrists slightly in or out, or what you do with your fingers as long as you are comfortable holding the reins and pulling in a way that creates a mechanically stable line between your forearm and the horse's face. I find that the recommended hand angle that is neither palms down or thumbs up (tops of hands angled toward each other) works very well for me. I also put the reins between my ring finger and pinkie. I was told this gives a stronger grip but with more finesse than using your hand as a fist, and that seems right to me. 

When I ride, I stay off the horse's back most of the time. There is a big difference between sitting heavily on a horse and sitting lightly with your weight distributed down your legs into the stirrups. When horses trot, I get up and two point more often than post. I've learned when the horse pushes you up with the first trot stride, it's easier to put more weight down in the stirrup on the front leg the horse lands on and to alternate that weight back and forth between the stirrups in a lateral movement rather than moving up and down on the saddle. It's almost a walking motion, and allows a person to "stride" along with the horse in a very relaxed manner over long distances. 

Same with cantering. Even on a very smooth horse I don't do the "sit/slide" I was taught. Instead, I two point extremely low on a very smooth horse so my body moves over the saddle instead of on it. On a very rough horse I two point higher off the saddle, using more flex in my joints to absorb the impact more. 
*
I'd be interested to hear about others' personal riding techniques they've adopted and believe in.*


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## bsms

Excellent post. In fact, I've bookmarked the post for future reference. When a newer rider is asking for advice, I'll be able to post a link to your thread, #187.

When I started riding, trying to be a self-taught rider on a horse no beginner had any business riding, I was steered to Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship". He has a couple of chapters on why he came to use the Forward System of riding. At the time, I was convinced - and what he taught works very well for an inexperienced rider who wants to move with the horse - even if the horse's movement is not what the rider asked for!

Interestingly, he concluded much the same as what you have (emphasis mine):

Page 55:_
.
__ "...after long mental and practical groping I arrived at the following simple formula of what a good seat should be. It must (in motion):_

_ *1) Unite the horse and the rider*_
_* 2) Offer security to the rider*_
_* 3) Not abuse the horse*_
_* 4) Place the rider's legs and hands in a position from which he will be able to control the horse quickly, and firmly and, if desired, with finesse.*_

_ Here are a few explanatory words about these four points. It is obvious that the unity of the rider and the horse depends on such a distribution of the rider's weight in the saddle that his line of center of gravity and that of the horse nearly coincide (this means the forward seat in the case of a horse which moves with forward balance)._

_ The unity of the horse and the rider abuses the horse the least, enables him to move freely without the interference of the rider's weight, at, at the same time, gives to the rider a great deal of possible security..._

_ ...Once the rider has taken his weight from the horse's loins and placed it forward, on a stronger part of the horse's back, he has already decreased the abuse of the horse and, if after this, he proceeds to follow the movement of the horse with his torso and arms, the remaining unavoidable abuse becomes minimum._
​.
Page 57:
_.
__ "...if the rider's position depended primarily on firmly fixed knees then he was greatly hampered in the use of his legs. *For, as long as a strong use of the legs releases the wedging of the knees, it would seem that the rider's position would be weakened every time he had to control the horse forcibly.* Of course, on perfectly schooled horses, such moments may occur very rarely and don't have to be considered seriously; but a perfectly schooled horse is far from being a general case in this world, at least today._

_ I am also against gripping strongly with knees alone because as a result of abrupt movements of the horse which the rider has not been able to follow rhythmically he often loses his position by pivoting on the knees, usually landing on the horse's neck or beyond [_Note: a forward rotational fall, the most dangerous sort_]...Obviously, gripping with the lower thighs, knees and upper calves is stronger than with the knees alone._

_ Furthermore, a strongly fixed knee interferes with the flow of the weight into the stirrups and stiffens the knee joints, *thus greatly diminishing the amount of spring in the rider's body*. This spring, which is rarely mentioned by other schools of forward riding is to me a very important element in a good, effortless forward seat. And last, but not least, I am certain that a hard grip stiffens a beginner and, once in the habit of being stiff, some never relax in their lives..."_ ​.

The concept of spring seems critical to me. Without it, you are a dead weight on the horse's back and unprepared for any unasked for movement by your horse. You prevent the horse from moving fluidly, regardless of the gait. Spring comes from what Littauer called "hinges" - the ankle, knee and hip. Thus he taught a stirrup-centric approach, with weight flowing past the knees and into the heels, where is was supported by the weight in the stirrups. A spring can absorb and release shock. A weight cannot. *And there is no spring to a person's seat!* It is ridiculous to believe a person's lower back can absorb as much changing motion as the ankles, knees and hip can. If you want security on an animated or unpredictable horse, you need "spring", not "seat"!

In addition, thinking over some of the previous posts you and others have made, I've concluded the stirrups are like an artificial horizon. In flying jets, cloud formations, hard maneuvering and moving one's head around while in motion can disorient the pilot. If he gets disoriented, the USAF teaches him to either look outside at the real horizon (if possible) or to look inside at the instrument that provides the artificial horizon. Once you saw "the horizon", you could reorient yourself.

Stirrups do that for a rider. In the heat of the moment, on a dancing, twisting horse, it is easy to become unbalanced - in part, I think, because our sense of balance in the inner ear is thrown off. We don't, in those moments, have time to scan the horizon - but our feet can feel "the ground", so to speak, and that allows us to balance just as if we were running instead of riding. But for that to work, we must allow weight to flow into the stirrup rather than avoid it!

You wrote:

"_The stirrup length is the shortest length that does not make your feet, ankles and knees sore over speed and distance. Which may be quite long, depending on many factors. Your legs do not grip the horse, but slide up and down with a little friction as the horse moves at different gaits. _[Spring, using hinges, in Littauer's terminology, folding and unfolding in my own description]_ You should have enough weight in the stirrups that they do not ever shift on the bottoms of your feet unless you take a bit of weight off and move them with your foot._"

Because of where I ride, letting a horse open up and go full throttle is almost unheard of. My youngest used to let Trooper canter a lot more, but it often resulted in badly chipped hooves, requiring a few weeks of recovery. Thus, for where I ride, my only change would be to say that stirrups should be the LONGEST length that still allows one to adequately get out of (or at least light) in the saddle.

The horse's body pivots around his center of gravity, which is close to the withers. That is the point of least up/down motion, regardless of pace and during most bucking (I think - I don't have a lot of experience with bucking). So as long as I can shift my center of gravity forward, I don't need to get my crotch far out of the saddle. I tend to emphasize security over free motion of the horse because a fall could easily kill me and my horses just are not ridden long enough or hard enough for me to worry about making them work 5-10% harder - particularly in a western saddle, which distributes weight over a large area of the horse's back.

I'm also realizing my goals have changed. What seems to interest and challenge my wife, my horses and me the most is leaving the ATV trails through the desert and striking out on our own. This means walking, and often walking slow, picking our way through the desert. It means back-tracking at times, because what looked possible may end up at a 30 foot sheer drop, or an impassible thicket of mesquite & cactus. There is almost no level ground here, so it means going up and down, zig-zagging around.

I read a book last night that discussed the Boer War, and the Boer horses. They were scrubby horses who did not move "properly" any more than the Boer's RODE "properly" - but they could cover more ground in a day than the British horses, and do it while living off the land. And during the war, the British found themselves being outridden, because their riding did not match the country or their needs! (_"The average life expectancy of a British horse, from the time of its arrival in Port Elizabeth, was around six weeks...A military writer has committed himself to the opinion that the Cape horse is useless for military purposes, nevertheless it was on Cape horses that the Boers did all their work, and the rapidity of their movements showed that they were not mounted on useless horses. The questions to consider are: What sort of horse is the best for war?"_)

For riding across rough terrain, or picking one's way between the cactus and through the brush, always without any water, might mean using a slow, careful motion. Light in the seat would still count for a lot, but not out of the seat - not in a western saddle when walking! If my wife continues riding with me regularly, we may spend our most challenging moments in the saddle at a walk, trusting the horse when our legs are an inch from cactus, or going down a steep spot or climbing up out of a wash where there is no trail. Balance will often be on our seats, yet LIGHTLY on our seats.

Yet even with a different need, your goals would still be critical:

1) Do not interfere with the horse's movement or create soreness by my riding. 

2) Be very secure regardless of (almost) anything the horse does. 

3) Use my body in a way that joints, tendons or bones do not become too damaged or sore (only sore muscles) from riding. [We are in our late 50s...the wife turns 59 in a week! I frequently start rides by taking Motrin 30 minutes prior...]

4) Be able to use the parts of my body independently at any speed....

*5) Be in balance with the horse's motion*

:iagree:

:cheers:​


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## bsms

An interesting article:

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/swart.pdf

"As a Boer general noted acerbically, “_The British cavalryman might have used elephants with almost as much advantage as their colossal horses_”(Viljoen, 1902)...

...By 1901, the Boer republics were run by a mobile “government on horseback.” Boer horses thus had to rely in large part on the veld for food...

... Both sides disparaged the other’s equestrian skills. The British horse trainer Horace Hayes, referred to earlier as serving on remount voyages, held a series of horse-breaking demonstrations throughout South Africa prior to the war. He noted that he had to fight hard to win the “_the good opinion of the Boers, whose hatred of the English is equalled only by their contempt for us as horsemen_” (Hayes, 1894). Boers, in turn, frequently cited their own organic, archetypal horsemanship. As Reitz observed, “_We learned to ride, shoot and swim as soon as we could walk_” (Reitz, 1929/1990)...

...Reitz noted of yet another of his horses, a “_sturdy little Boer pony, Blesman,” that he “remained my faithful friend long after he had got me out of [trouble]; he was shot, poor little chap, the day when they made me prisoner. Poor Blesman, to you I owe my life! Blesman was plainly in league against all that was British; from the first he displayed Anglophobia of a most acute character. He has served me in good stead, and now lies buried, faithful little heart, in a Lydenburg ditch._”...

...On the other side, a British combatant described how his horse, Peter, had “_learnt most of the philosophy that soldiering teaches. . . . Only by such companionship does one come to know a horse. Not his paces and his vices and his powers, but his interests, his understandings, his capacity for self-effacement._” He continued that a soldier’s horse “_is an unaccounted confidant; his spirit and courage have lifted the flight of reflections, and in the rhythm of his paces our vague thoughts have trod. One learns from the parting how close has been the comradeship_” (Battersby, 1900). Lonely soldiers chatted to their horses and spent more time with them than with any other living entity and experienced shared dangers that forged bonds (Hopkins, 1963). Combatants had strong ties to their horses."


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## tinyliny

gottatrot


your list of personal riding techniques is great. well written. it really is that most of us are often trying to do the same thing, but just describing it in different words, so we think we are doing different things.

I am intrigued by this part:


When I ride, I stay off the horse's back most of the time. There is a big difference between sitting heavily on a horse and sitting lightly with your weight distributed down your legs into the stirrups. When horses trot, I get up and two point more often than post. *I've learned when the horse pushes you up with the first trot stride, it's easier to put more weight down in the stirrup on the front leg the horse lands on and to alternate that weight back and forth between the stirrups in a lateral movement rather than moving up and down on the saddle. I*t's almost a walking motion, and allows a person to "stride" along with the horse in a very relaxed manner over long distances. 

Same with cantering. Even on a very smooth horse I don't do the "sit/slide" I was taught. Instead, I two point extremely low on a very smooth horse so my body moves over the saddle instead of on it. On a very rough horse I two point higher off the saddle, using more flex in my joints to absorb the impact more. "
"

that is something I don't understnannd and I'd like to see you do. I wonder if I'm doing it and don't know it, but I doubt it. I don't two point very well at all. I do 'stand' in the stirrups a bit, when the horse is trotting out really fast and flat, and my ankles just sort of 'flutter/bounce" to absorb the frantic motion. 
two point in canter is really hard for me. I think I end up knee gripping and hunching over. lack of training in huntseat type techniques, I guess.



here's something you might find interesting , something I learned from attending a Charles D'Kunfy clinic years ago.

he was talking about helping to amplify the horse's free walk, or any walk, for that matter . he said when you feel your hip, (say the right hip for this discussion) being lifted and moved forward as the hrose pushes off with his right hind, let your right shoulder ALSO move a bit forward. so, instead of your shoulders staying absolutely static in space, and your hips moving under them, . . OR worse, having your hips swinging one way, and your shoulders counter that back and forth as you will see some riders do (an action that dampens the energy of the walk) . . let your shoulder 'pair' with your hip and move in sync, so that it stays right over the hip when it advances and returns with each step.

mind you, this is a minute movment, and is hard at first to get synced up, since it's a bit counterintuitive. we tend to want to move counter to hip, in a 'twisting "motion with upper body countering the lower. this is more of a 'pairing/synching' motion. it eases off the tiniest amount of resistance to the hrose's body motion and makes the saddle move less on his back and just amplifies his walk, ever so slightly.

try it and tell me what you think. I'd value your opinion.


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## Bondre

I like this idea of breaking down your riding technique into what is integral and what is superfluous to you. I've had to think about it and analyse, which is always good, as at makes you more aware of what you're doing in the saddle. 

I agree that being in balance with your horse is fundamental. And I like the idea of the feet / stirrups as an artificial horizon. I think the hands should be another artificial horizon, as in your hands should be fairly stable and able to move independently of your and your horse's balance. Same with your feet, but to a lesser extent as you can't move your feet much without affecting your own balance.

I absolutely agree that it is important for a rider to be able to use their hands and legs to cue the house no matter what speed you're moving at. It's no good being able to do beautiful refined movements at the walk and trot if you're a mere passenger at faster gaits. 

I have an awful habit of hunching my shoulders when my horse is not very relaxed. Which unfortunately happens quite frequently. I am really fighting this but as soon as I feel the adrenaline rising I hunch over in response. It seems much easier to control and dampen down explosions of energy in this position. Could it be that by hunching my back I am bringing my centre of gravity further forward, closer to the horse's withers, and therefore in the most stable area with least up and down movement (bsms' post)? Not trying to excuse a bad habit but it's interesting to consider why I do it, as that could help me to stop. Perhaps if I just try leaning forward but keeping my back straight it'd give the same result. 

I wanted to try the lateral movement at the trot today instead of normal posting, but circumstances were against me. All our trot work was quite fraught and interspersed by breaking gait and crow-hopping, so no chance of experimenting with my position. I did try doing two point at the canter and keeping completely off her back but my stirrups were too long and every time she suspended the saddle came up to meet my butt with a slap. Probably more uncomfortable for her than using a full seat. 

Just wanted to add a brief aside on orthography, a pet peeve of mine. I don't know how many times I've read in the forum about horses "braking gait" (but not on this thread or by the members who post here lol). In which case horses can presumably also "brake gate" or even "break gate"? (especially the latter :rofl: :rofl: )


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> Just wanted to add a brief aside on orthography, a pet peeve of mine. I don't know how many times I've read in the forum about horses "braking gait" (but not on this thread or by the members who post here lol). In which case horses can presumably also "brake gate" or even "break gate"? (especially the latter :rofl: :rofl: )


I'll admit I have a bad habit...I try to stop myself but I can't help correcting some spelling and punctuation when I use the "quote" feature. Obviously that makes it no longer a direct quote, but how can I help it when people brake gate?


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## gottatrot

I watched quite a few videos last night trying to find a rider to illustrate two pointing the trot or canter well. Haven't found any very clear examples yet, so I will try to video myself and post it on here. I was trying to figure out how, today, but then we took Nala and Halla out for a joy ride instead. 

Watching over all the videos, I noticed that there seem to be two very different styles that seem to work for a majority of riders. One is the very "off the back" style, and one is the very "on the back" style. I saw this watching many videos of people doing fast and long work with horses. Seeing both of these used commonly on very long endurance rides, I have to conclude that either will work well long term for the horse. 

Nala's rider today was wondering aloud (and I hadn't brought up any of the discussions we've been having online) about how people can sit down so much. Both of us ride off the back, and her explanation was that her horse is likely to dart out from under her at any moment and she feels most secure when she is light and ready. She was laughing and telling me she just saw an article that was admonishing riders to get strong and get off the back!

Back to the different styles, it reminds me of a video I watched about elite long distance runners. As with riding, there is debate over what type of gait is most efficient. It seems there are two main styles that can work well. Some runners are gliders and some are gazelles, meaning some leap and push while some glide along lower and flatter. 

My sister and I are the same height, but she is about 15-20 lbs heavier than me. She does a few half marathons each year, and we are in the same class and finish races in the same time frames. She is a better sprinter and has more fast twitch muscles. Although we are similar genetically, she is a gazelle and I am a glider. 





I do believe that my sister is as efficient as I am when running, but trying her style tires me quickly. It may be the same for those who sit or stand on their horses - I personally don't find sitting to be efficient for me or sparing on the horse, and I find posting for miles a bit less efficient than two pointing, but have to conclude from the people who ride this way for 100 miles that they may find it most efficient to do so.

On the other hand, I also believe that many people two point or even post through muscular strength and force, and perhaps if they knew how to do it aerobically instead they would also find it as efficient as my friends and I do.
@bsms, great information and very interesting. I love the concept of the stirrups as the horizon. I've heard about the horizon relating to flying, but have only experienced it in a personal way for orienting myself when it came to being on a boat on the ocean. When the waters are very rough, a person can keep their bearings by watching the horizon and the brain (and stomach) cope much better even if the horizon appears to be moving like a teeter totter. This is something I will remember. 

You have a good way with words and concepts, and one thing I always remember from a few years ago was when I was struggling with the idea of needing to use stronger bits versus a gentle bit or no bit at all on some horses. You gave this analogy of being in a loud place like an airplane hanger, and related that to how a horse being over stimulated might need someone to shout in order to hear them rather than whisper. It gave me this new understanding of how a horse might not be intentionally tuning out the rider, but instead might be having difficulty hearing the rider over too much stimulus. 
@tinyliny, I will try to find a better way to illustrate the two pointing, etc. Riding today, I was trying to think about what my shoulders were doing. I believe most of the time they mirror what my hips are doing, whether going forward or up and down. It's good to think about. 

On another thread, there was discussion about why use the ball of the foot versus the arch or "home" position. One thing I've found is that what people call the "ball" of their foot can vary quite a bit. In teaching others to ride, I've told many to put the stirrup on the ball of their foot and some put it nearly at the toes while others nearly at the heel. People can weight their feet very differently, for one thing. My husband stands back on his heels, and my older brother stands nearly on his toes. 

This also is something I've learned with running, people do all kinds of things with their feet depending on their shape and body type. I personally am a "supinator" which means my foot has a lot of motion and ends up wearing the outside of my running shoes. If you put my foot in a restrictive shoe, I'll soon be messing up my body if I run. Perhaps this is why I don't ride in a giant, flat stirrup that keeps my foot more in place but instead use a more open stirrup that lets me shift it around the ball and midfoot more. I am guessing that if I tell you your muscles will work better if you weight the outside of your foot, that might not work for you unless you have a similar foot to me. 

So far, this is all I can find to show how the two pointing rhythm works: The behind view from 0:20 to 0:30 shows the rhythm and how the rider's joints absorb it. The #4 horse and #1 horse at about 1:15 to 1:40 have a little longer stirrup and demonstrate how it works - if you imagine both riders with longer stirrups sitting down much closer to the horse's backs (and a bit straighter). The #2 rider is having the most difficulty with bounciness. From behind you can see she is attempting to pinch her knees together, which is disrupting the ability of her joints to absorb the motion. 




At slower speeds, it really helps to stretch down a little with each leg as each front leg lands. The pace is too fast to do that here, but when each front leg is on the ground, that shoulder drops just a little and the motion is absorbed better if you reach down toward that stirrup.

What I hope to show at some point is that similar to posting, it is only difficult to two point until you learn how to let the horse's motion do the work and to just "catch" the motion rather than using your muscle strength. It's merely a matter of balance, timing and feel. 

I'm saying that as someone who sweated through two point lessons with my instructor, going home with my thighs in muscle spasms and shaking to the point where it was difficult to use the clutch on my truck. I thought it was something I'd have to build up to like lifting weights. Instead, I learned years later it is an aerobic exercise that requires no more strength than jogging versus doing leg presses. What we do is become stiff and let our joints and muscles oppose the motion rather than finding the angles of the joints where the horse's movements will push us up and down onto the stirrups.


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## tinyliny

Due to back and knee limitations I sit the entire ride if 1.5 hour more or less. It can be done and does not compromise security. How you ride will change when you have 50 + years on your body.


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## bsms

On the back or off: I don't think that is a security issue, provided the legs go comfortably and securely around the horse (the "draped towels" analogy has always resonated with me), and the rider's center of gravity is either with the horse's or slightly behind.

Most of my riding is done with weight in the saddle. Most of mine is walking. If my daughter and I go out, we'll increase the trotting, and I suspect we will as my wife finds her balance on Cowboy. But we will rarely canter or gallop. It just chews up their feet and I'm too lazy to put boots on them for every ride. My pleasure in riding comes from moments like these:








​ 







​ 
*It is a trans-species social event for me* - when horse and rider BOTH are enjoying being out TOGETHER. If I had a place where Bandit and Trooper could compete against each other without destroying their feet, I might enjoy that as well - just as the horses would. I think my pleasure is rooted in why horses enjoy being ridden, if they enjoy it at all - being part of a team, working together toward a goal, regardless of whether than goal is herding sheep, racing with friends, enjoying covering some ground, or just picking out a good path across the desert.
.".._.There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals._" - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)​.
I actually BELIEVE that! A lot of people tell me it is a bunch of horse poop, that horses are lazy, that horses don't like work, that riding is something they endure. Littauer, when he was younger, writing a few years after leaving the Russian Cavalry, said no horse enjoys being ridden. It wasn't until decades later that he wrote about him and his horse going out so they both could enjoy the countryside. Somewhere along the way, he discovered a horse CAN enjoy being out with a human. They can also enjoy competition, running, exerting themselves, feeling their strength...and being together. They are extremely social animals, and they enjoy good company!

When Bandit was pushed past things that scared him, I don't think he enjoyed that. But on our last ride (too hot too early the last few days), when we saw a piece of plywood that looked very suspicious, it went like this:

Bandit: What is that? Why is that there? It doesn't look like it belongs!

bsms: Looks like a piece of plywood. I think we can handle it. Want to stop and look?

Bandit: Yes. [He looks] You really think we can get by?

bsms: Yes.

Bandit: How about we move more to one side, just in case?

bsms: We can go off the trail, around that creosote bush, and be back on the trail before the plywood knows what has happened.

Bandit: OK! That makes good sense!​ 
So we did, and as far as Bandit was concerned, WE led Cowboy & my wife successfully past a potential danger. We. Together. Us. With Cowboy, who was taking care of my wife, who in turn sneaks him handfuls of mesquite beans while we walked. Teamwork. Herd. Social. Not alone!
-----------------------------
"_her explanation was that her horse is likely to dart out from under her at any moment and she feels most secure when she is light and ready_"

That may be why I like my 3" depth stirrups instead of the 4" ones my wife & daughter use, and why I hesitate about buying some 5" ones. When I feel most ready to stay with my horse darting is when my feet are under my center of gravity, feet level (which feels like I'm gripping the front of my stirrups, since my normal position is heels down), seat light in the saddle AND feeling the 4" cantle behind me. I think that is part of why I like the sheepskin. It shrank my saddle down to a size that fits me. Before that, I don't think I ever felt the cantle lightly behind me. I normally had 1-2" of smooth, flat saddle back there for me to slide across if the horse darted forward.

Which Cowboy and Bandit both did on our last ride, when Cowboy was startled by a bicyclist going fast on the paved road just as we started a 180 degree turn into a dirt trail home. So he jumped forward, Bandit responded to his jumping forward...and I stopped and turned Bandit in about 2 strides. As we whipped around, I thought my leg was going to go into the cactus. It happened very near the spot in the second picture, and there isn't any spare room on that section of trail. But I wanted to block the path and show Cowboy that Bandit and I were facing the 'threat' - because my wife is a new rider and I didn't want her dealing with a bolting horse.

My leg must have missed the cactus, and Cowboy halted with us blocking the trail. Then he looked a little embarrassed, and Bandit and I moved a little to a wider spot, then did another 180 to lead them home.

When I rode in this saddle, it would make me nervous - knowing those leaps forward WOULD happen, sometime, somewhere, and feeling like my position needed to keep me from sliding off the rear of the saddle:








​ 
Even this saddle had a gentle enough slope to the cantle that I felt unprepared:








​ 
But it would take a heck of a leap forward to blow me out of THIS saddle:








​ 
So...I relax more. I don't ride heavy in the saddle, but I feel no need to be out of it, either. It will distribute my weight well, too. I've done a 3 hour ride on Cowboy - all 13.0 hands of him, at 30+% of his weight - and had him trot willingly at the end. I could ride heavy in it while protecting his back. I just don't want to ride heavy.

But it comes back to there being no one "proper way" to ride! How I ride a horse picking his way across the desert differs from how I think I would ride, if I could ride on a beach and let the horse open up. And how a 58 year old guy chooses to ride might differ from a younger and more athletic person. It also has nothing to do with how a WP rider rides, or a dressage rider rides, or reining or barrel racing.

I guess that is why I get upset when someone tells me I must ride with my foot parallel to my horse, that it is improper to ride with the ball of my foot at the front end of my 3" deep stirrups, and that a fixed knee is required to prevent the lower leg from flopping around - and darn it, my lower leg has NEVER flopped around EXCEPT when I tried riding with a fixed knee! It all assumes I'm too stupid to figure out what works well for me and my horse, all because I didn't take lessons in a flat, sandy arena on a horse who wouldn't be likely to spook or buck or use his brain in any way.


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## tinyliny

Horse DO enjoy going out in a group and really moving. I know that Gottatrot knows that for sure, 'cause she does it all the time.

I wish I had access to more varying places to ride. the few times that i've been able to be trailered out to ride, the hrose is really engaged in mthe ride and I really think they enjoy it more.


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## egrogan

I'm with you @tinyliny, we have a couple of big loops to ride but our miles are in the single digits unless we start doing the loops multiple times, which would sort of defeat the purpose to avoid boredom. I really wish we had access to more places to ride and different scenery. It's the age old "to buy or not buy a trailer" question...

I definitely think Isabel likes getting out and seeing the scenery, having the chance to really pick up speed and cover the ground quickly. I know the days when she's not as in to the ride because she drags her feet going away from home, but that's not the norm. This year, we've ridden almost entirely alone, and I think that works pretty well for both of us. Most of the other horses that we occasionally ride with don't move as quickly as she does naturally, and I know she gets annoyed when we have to crawl along to stick with them. I've never ridden with a horse that moves out a lot faster than her, not sure how she'd react to that.


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## tinyliny

I miss the days when I used to go out with my friend and we 'cruised' through the trails; trotting nearly constantly, except where there were blind corners and having some short buy fun gallops up the few hills.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I think my pleasure is rooted in why horses enjoy being ridden, if they enjoy it at all - being part of a team, working together toward a goal, regardless of whether than goal is herding sheep, racing with friends, enjoying covering some ground, or just picking out a good path across the desert.
> 
> ..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals.


I've decided that if I'm bored, my horse certainly is. We keep looking for ways to do our rides differently. If we go north today, we'll go south tomorrow. One time we'll go off the beach through a neighborhood, sometimes we'll take a trail in one direction and sometimes in another. We'll go farther or stop a little sooner.

I'd also like a horse trailer, because I think it would be enjoyable to go up on the mountain trails every couple weeks or so. 
I'm not sure where this is (an Arab country?), but I wouldn't mind taking a run down the track in this video:




 
Halla always wants to know the purpose of what we're doing. Sometimes I think she believes she's training Nala in the ways of the world. Nala is bigger and faster, but in the end Nala always stops before Halla does and we gallop a few feet beyond Nala before stopping. Then Halla shakes her head up and down and puffs up, and I think she believes Nala stopped a few inches short of the finish line which made her the winner. 

Knowing your horse helps you know how to respond. I don't have set rules about many things, but base my response on who my horse is. Such as yesterday, as we were cantering down the beach Halla became very interested in something in the dunes to our left. I felt her muscles growing tense and she turned her head and began to really focus. I looked forward down the beach, and did not turn my head even though my horse kept staring. Then I told her, "I don't know what it is, but I don't care about it. Let's keep going." After a moment she relaxed and we continued on. 



> I think my pleasure is rooted in why horses enjoy being ridden


Why do I ride the way I do? Because that is what my horse enjoys. She is a "border collie" of a horse, and we canter a lot. I enjoy trotting, Halla does not. We do not trot very much. 

Amore is now beginning to show her age, and it is obvious she is not enjoying the hard rides anymore. I'm looking forward to working out some senior rides with lots of walking and enjoying the scenery, ones that she will appreciate. I'm planning to make her riding companions some of the slower horses rather than Nala or Halla. 

Age gets to us all.
However, I've had many lessons on aging over the years and have learned that it's not about a number. My dad is 81, gardens, rides his bike, goes hiking, chops wood. He retired from a physical job in his mid-70s because my mom finally convinced him to. 

I've met people who believed they were too old for strenuous exercise in their late twenties. I've been around people dying from liver failure because they've used up their bodies with drugs and alcohol in their late twenties and early thirties.

One of my patients was in her 90s and kept talking about when she was young. Her daughter told me "when she was young" meant her 70s, because that's when she was golfing every day, hiking and traveling the world. 
I've met many others, former marathon runners, people who are swimming laps every day in their 90s and I'm convinced it's important to stay active as long as you can. The gal I know who rides the most difficult horses is close to 60. 

I'll be 39 in a month, and think I am a kid. My wish is that since Halla is 20, I would like to be able to have one more challenging horse after her. Then in my 70s, should I still be healthy, I could scale down to a more mellow horse.  My husband thinks it's a good plan so far. He's 49, so I assume he knows more about how it feels to age than I do.


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## horseluvr2524

I know it sounds odd, but I think climate has a lot to do with the aging process. People living here in the desert in extreme heat seem to age faster. Not everyone, but many. Its like the desert literally saps all the moisture from your body and shrivels you up like a prune (too descriptive? lol). I imagine it is similar in places with extreme cold most of the year.

My husband is one of those people who can work so hard and so long it makes you sick just watching him, and still have energy. He has been discovering the 'desert drain', and the heat makes even him tired. He has been saying frequently "People in other states think Arizonans are lazy. I've learned that its not that they are lazy, they are just too tired to do much!" LOL!

Then again, staying active is important, even in a difficult climate. That is what I believe really keeps you young is fitness.

In other news, I need to update Shan's thread. I started a new job and am super busy on Friday and Saturday's. The only time I can ride (because of heat and work) is Sunday and Wednesday mornings. Shan was still getting stiff and lame, but then would work out of it, and then be super stiff again the next day. I finally called my chiropractor who I have used many times before. He came out today and BO (who doesn't really like or believe in chiropractors) cringed watching him pop her back into place. Chiro can be unpleasant to watch, and you have to be careful because sometimes they will hurt more than help, and I certainly don't think its something you should be having done every month. But poor Shan was more out of place than I thought! She looked way better after he finished and seemed more relaxed. By Sunday she should no longer be stiff and be back to her normal self. 

BTW, mom had a few mini gallops last Sunday and loved it :wink: I don't think she's quite ready for a ride on an Arabian though!


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

I might get caught galloping on a trail like the one in the picture you posted above! If its flat, little to no rock, and not much cacti... I'm game! However, I do boot my horse.

Horses definitely do enjoy going out, no doubt about it. Last Sunday, my mare got to do a bit of galloping on the trail. We really never did much cantering or galloping at all, so it took her a bit to realize that yes I do want you to run. Once she got that, she had a blast! She also seems to like navigating hazards around the trail and picking her way through a rocky section. Its like I can see her brain working.


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## tinyliny

I do not do well in a hot climate, not at all. when it's hot here, and it is, though not for all that long, I cant get enthused about doing anything but lay in the cool basement and wait for evening. 

our weather is so nice now; mid 70's and sunny with soft breezes.


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## Bondre

I hate the summer too for the high temperatures. It's so unfair that when the days are so long I have plenty of time for everything, it's too hot to do outdoor things for hours during the middle of the day. I was designed for gentle, English weather lol, not these continental extremes of temperature. But then again, my husband is from Andalusia - so hotter than where we live now - and he's no better than me at coping with heat. If anything, I have more energy, so it obviously depends on individual physiology. 

As to aging, a lot of it is in the head but if you have any physical problems - wear and tear in the joints, spine, etc etc - it must be harder to keep active. I am luckily in fairly good shape but last year I had bursitis in one hip and that really affected how agile I felt and made me want to move around less. And once you start losing mobility in any part of your body, you're on the downturn. Fortunately a combination of physiotherapy and homeopathy fixed my hip - which in any case wasn't a problem for riding as it was weight-bearing and walking that made it sore (and no, riding didn't cause the problem either as my DH claimed).

I also think aging is cultural. My mother is in her mid 80's and is very active. She has been a keen hill-walker all her life and that has kept her active and agile. Most of her friends are similarly active at advanced ages - this is the typical English scene, at least amongst her social group. Here in Spain, in the villages you see the old ladies going for little walks along the road "because the doctor told them they must walk x distance every day". Then they spend the rest of the day relatively sedentary around the house, the grandchildren, etc etc. They have all worked like mules when they were young and now they are happy to relax into an inactive old age, but I suspect their bodies start to give up on them earlier as a result. 

I sure am going to stick out like a sore thumb when I officially become am old lady lol! I hope I'll still be riding twenty years from now, and I hope I'll still have Macarena and we'll both be old together. No more galloping, bucking or running backwards


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## gottatrot

Also, I think genetically some people age better. When we visited Japan, very old women would pass us walking up the very steep hills and they were chatting away with each other like it was nothing. 

We like the weather here because we only have about a week's worth of hot days a year. What we call hot is 75f (24c) degrees, and if it ever reaches 90f (32c) we think we might die. When we've visited hotter places, we have had arguments until figuring out we're just grumpy from being too hot. Something I find difficult is to drink so much water your stomach is sloshing and distended, and then try to hike. 

Where we live we don't think much about water, for instance we're getting into summer now and I went to the barn, did chores and rode, was gone about 4 hours and didn't bring anything along to drink. We do hikes and if they're not more than a couple hours, we often don't bring anything to drink. Also I can't imagine having to figure out a certain time of day to ride or run based on the heat. It's hard enough fitting everything in between work, sleeping, eating, and I'd hate to have to think about what time it was cooler or warmer. So I feel for those of you who deal with that for months at a time. 

On the other hand, you probably have more opportunities to swim outdoors than we do. All of our lakes, rivers and the ocean stay quite frigid all year. On the hottest days we'll go in a lake or river, but without a wet suit you'll get hypothermia in the Pacific even in the summertime. And those who like blue skies without rain absolutely hate it here.

A little video from today's joy ride:
It mainly highlights how fast Nala is versus a normal fast horse like Halla who used to keep up well with some other Thoroughbreds we've known. She hasn't gotten slower but she has learned she is not as fast as she used to think.

My initial goal was to have Nala's rider wear the helmet cam so I could get some footage of me two pointing...she mainly posts the trot. But her head was too small to keep my helmet on so we need to find another helmet that has holes for the straps.
(Warning: the music background is kind of crazy)


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## knightrider

Beautiful video of the riding on the beach. It looks like so much fun!

Could you evaluate the video you put up of the guy riding in the pink bridle and saddle pad? His riding didn't impress me, but maybe I am not seeing what you were trying to show. All that cantering and then put the horse away wet? It was kind of weird. The whole video was kind of weird. Or is it just me?


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> Could you evaluate the video you put up of the guy riding in the pink bridle and saddle pad? His riding didn't impress me, but maybe I am not seeing what you were trying to show. All that cantering and then put the horse away wet? It was kind of weird. The whole video was kind of weird. Or is it just me?


The video with the guy in pink: I was only posting because I happened upon it and was impressed by the track shown in the video from 1:03 - 1:26. I was imagining how easy it would be to let a horse all the way out on that track. I'm sure it would get boring to ride there every day, in that artificial environment. 

It appears to be in some Arab country, I was curious to know which one but I don't know just from looking at the skyline. I tried to look up and see if it was Dubai but it didn't appear similar to Google images I saw. From what I've heard, they don't have the best horse keeping situations in those countries, often the horses don't have turnout. Some of the Arab Emirates have been in trouble recently with the FEI as well for injuring horses, poor training and preparation for races, and faking endurance race results so they could enter horses. 

I can't complain since I also have good stretches to let the horses gallop on. But since our environment is so natural, it changes rapidly and is more dangerous - there can be hidden holes in the sand or other hazards. Sometimes I have envied those who have a track they know has safe footing for any speed, and that you can trust completely. It would also be easy if you did not have to think about when to slow a horse down, but could just let them go around a loop until they felt like going slower.


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## tinyliny

Bondre said:


> I hate the summer too for the high temperatures. It's so unfair that when the days are so long I have plenty of time for everything, it's too hot to do outdoor things for hours during the middle of the day. I was designed for gentle, English weather lol, not these continental extremes of temperature. But then again, my husband is from Andalusia - so hotter than where we live now - and he's no better than me at coping with heat. If anything, I have more energy, so it obviously depends on individual physiology.
> 
> As to aging, a lot of it is in the head but if you have any physical problems - wear and tear in the joints, spine, etc etc - it must be harder to keep active. I am luckily in fairly good shape but last year I had bursitis in one hip and that really affected how agile I felt and made me want to move around less. And once you start losing mobility in any part of your body, you're on the downturn. Fortunately a combination of physiotherapy and homeopathy fixed my hip - which in any case wasn't a problem for riding as it was weight-bearing and walking that made it sore (and no, riding didn't cause the problem either as my DH claimed).
> 
> I also think aging is cultural. My mother is in her mid 80's and is very active. She has been a keen hill-walker all her life and that has kept her active and agile. Most of her friends are similarly active at advanced ages - this is the typical English scene, at least amongst her social group. Here in Spain, in the villages you see the old ladies going for little walks along the road "because the doctor told them they must walk x distance every day". Then they spend the rest of the day relatively sedentary around the house, the grandchildren, etc etc. They have all worked like mules when they were young and now they are happy to relax into an inactive old age, but I suspect their bodies start to give up on them earlier as a result.
> 
> I sure am going to stick out like a sore thumb when I officially become am old lady lol! I hope I'll still be riding twenty years from now, and I hope I'll still have Macarena and we'll both be old together. No more galloping, bucking or running backwards



aging is also a crap shoot. some folks get lucky and some do not. some age related illnesses are not something you can say that the person 'deserved' because they did not take care of themselves. it 's not always a case of you get what you work for or 'derserve'. in some cases, the hard working, carefyul person is still struck down, while the indolent, lazy, fat one goes marching on. it's not a formula that you plug figures in and get an answer. it's not anythig like you expect it to be.


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## tinyliny

wonderful video of beach riding! it's so cool the way the horse in front becomes nothing more than a dot on the horizon when she really gets going. I think, while the go pro camera helps us share the experience, to REALLY feel it, you just have to be there.


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## gottatrot

Rode Amore for the first time since her fall about a month ago. Since I wasn't there to feel what precipitated the fall, I wasn't sure if she would have an issue. Because of this I am holding my hands abnormally high in case I had to yank her head up and throw myself off if she went down again. There was no feeling that anything might happen, she felt fine underneath me. I didn't want to push her at all, so let her meander a bit just in case anything was still sore. 

Afterward her back seemed fine and her movement loose, so I am hopeful everything is feeling good again and she won't have any more issues. 








Amore wore her bitless sidepull and the treeless saddle.









The video was an experiment and my setup didn't work in the outdoor arena - the wide angle makes it look VAST.  We are tiny and far away. 





In the video, I am doing a bit of two pointing close to the saddle, which some would say isn't two pointing at all. However, I'm also in the camp with BSMS that says an inch out of the saddle is out of the saddle. This treeless is very flat, and you can't see I'm out of it except in stills:








BUT, I am out of the saddle.
















Here the left stirrup is weighted with the left front.








So I use the horse's motion and just a very little muscle tension but I noticed watching the video I also move forward slightly as if I were posting with each diagonal. I think that helps stay with the motion and helps keep you from sitting down on the saddle as if you were posting.

Maybe this is something I've invented...? I could call it lateral half-posting. Anyway, very smooth and easy to stay with the horse's motion and off the back. Makes transitions easy too. Amore is pretty smooth, but I do it on Halla as well and she's rough gaited (gated, Bondre?).


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## Bondre

tinyliny said:


> aging is also a crap shoot. some folks get lucky and some do not. some age related illnesses are not something you can say that the person 'deserved' because they did not take care of themselves. it 's not always a case of you get what you work for or 'derserve'. in some cases, the hard working, carefyul person is still struck down, while the indolent, lazy, fat one goes marching on. it's not a formula that you plug figures in and get an answer. it's not anythig like you expect it to be.


Yes, for sure. Any octogenarian committed smoker or drinker is the proof of this. Everyone has to make the best of their own personal health situation, whether or not they "deserve" it.

But I do think that culture is important in that it dictates people's expectations of how they're going to pass their old age. If the social norm is that you stultify into old age then it'll be much harder for someone to remain active than if they live in a society that expects and caters for old folks' continued participation.

As a non-Spaniard I find the prospect of old age here rather depressing - there are very few activities focused on retired folks as family is the focus - but that is a product of my cultural expectations rather than one social tradition actually being superior to the other.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> she's rough gaited (gated, Bondre?).



A rough gate


And a ruff gait


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, for 30 years I lived in Bowie, MD, "the cradle of American horse racing". My friends and I knew a way to sneak onto one of the training tracks. It was called "The Track in the Woods" and not used as often. Around 3:00 in the afternoons when they weren't running races, Bowie race track is pretty quiet; and we could get on that training track in the woods and let our horses run. Of course, we were really really NOT allowed, got caught twice over the years and kicked off. It was fun to be able to gallop safely on a training track. Of course, being young, we galloped on all sorts of other terrain that was not so safe. But that's another story.


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> A rough gate
> 
> 
> And a ruff gait


:rofl: Hilarious!

Knightrider, I would have been there sneaking onto the track with you. I wonder if anyone has ever successfully galloped around a golf course as all riders dream of doing...



> _*Tinyliny*_: aging is also a crap shoot. Some folks get lucky and some do not. Some age related illnesses are not something you can say that the person 'deserved' because they did not take care of themselves...It's not anything like you expect it to be.





> *Bondre:* Yes, for sure. Any octogenarian committed smoker or drinker is the proof of this. Everyone has to make the best of their own personal health situation, whether or not they "deserve" it.


My dad says that _his_ dad told him when he got old he should expect some pain every day, and that is normal. So he tells me, "When I get up in the morning I creak and pop and ache a bit, but that's normal so I don't think anything about it."

I joke that athletes spend their lives preparing for getting old by creating frequent pain so we get used to it. Too stiff to get out of bed in the morning easily? Been doing regularly that since my teens.

People I work with that live sedentary lives show me a bruise and they're very impressed with the fact that they have one. Or they talk for several days about how their legs ended up sore after a long walk and this is a grand occasion in their life. They think they ought to sit down until the pain subsides. I'm thinking about how I go to my "active" job to recover after the several days off work that got my body sore. 
My sister says, what others do for exercise is what runners do for rest. Horse people are notorious for this as well, shoveling and throwing hay and grain around _before_ going to work. 

Aging is partially a crap shoot, but also partially we can stack the odds in our favor. Anyone can get a disease or have an accident. There are some people who abuse their bodies and live into old age. But I always wonder: how great would those people feel with those super genes and without smoking and drinking for 60 years? And the majority of those we see suffering from chronic illnesses are those who have abused their bodies with only a few rare ones who have bad luck. 

Like with our horses, I'd rather give them good nutrition, take care of the parasites and teeth and hooves and later if they're struck down by some accident at least they'll have been healthy even if they didn't live as long as I'd hoped. Versus throwing my horse out in a field with no care and saying some horses survive into old age that way with no trouble.

As Bondre says, there are lots of cultural factors involved. My family values being tough, not complaining, working with the hand you were dealt. My dad told me when I was figuring out my career that even if I chose something I thought I'd enjoy, "Work is always hard work." I was taught to believe that life is tenuous, everything you worked for can be lost in an instant, and your health can go in a second too. So I believe in enjoying every day and I always look back and think I've had such a great life that even if my health went tomorrow I'd have enough to look back on and remember. I want to keep living like that, enjoying things and the great people and animals in my life.


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## karliejaye

gottatrot said:


> I wonder if anyone has ever successfully galloped around a golf course as all riders dream of doing...
> .




Yes, at least two riders have and it didn't end well  I live in a rural HOA. Down in the common area there is a nice golf course (so I'm told, it looks like a waste of space and water to me!) and a riding arena with a few stalls across the street from it. Well, one night a few years ago a couple riders decided to gallop around the golf course and stole almost all the flags. I think it sounded fun, and a much better use of the space, but the majority of the HOA didn't agree. There were threats of closing down the arena and turning it into a mini golf course :icon_rolleyes:


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## knightrider

We had a golf course across a dirt road from where some of my friends boarded their horses. We used to gallop on it when it snowed--nobody playing golf then. It was very fun. We had a trail that we liked to ride, and to get to it, you had to thread your way alongside the golf course. After a couple of years of doing that, the golf club put a stop to it. Phooey.


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## gottatrot

You shouldn't wake up on the 4th of July with a song called "Burn it to the Ground" in your head. You might just think about taking your horse out for a ride on the beach. You might just feel an odd disconnection between what is probably wise and what is probably stupid, and not quite be able to figure out the difference. Then you might drink your coffee, focus on the equation again, and still find yourself unable to figure it out.

Finding myself in such a situation, I texted my friend. Since I keep friends who gallop around on unstable Thoroughbreds, she could think of no reason why we shouldn't go down and "take a look." I reasoned we could always come back and ride around the fields if the beach seemed too crazy.

We rode Halla and Nala down onto the beach in the early afternoon. To the south, we saw a virtual city of tents and cars so dense we couldn't tell where the gaps were in the distance. To the north; flags, tents, chairs, tarps, people claiming areas of beach as their own. We turned north.

After several minutes, Nala couldn't understand why we weren't running. There was so much stimulation but staring and staring at all the cars and flags and chairs was making her crazy. 
If you've seen some of my video and photos of our usually sparsely populated beach, you'll notice things look a bit different on the 4th.








Close to the water we had some space to move. Nala was stretching her neck down and shaking her head, losing it a bit. Her rider began finding areas where she could let Nala take off at a fast canter for short stretches, and it began to calm her down. 

Halla, on the other hand was not going to be able to stretch out. I found myself riding a fire-breathing dragon. Arabs have this odd talent of doing something I call "crazy legs." They can change normal gaits that are two beat or three beat and make them one beat, things like that. 

We started doing a one beat canter down the beach. Normally, the three beats may be close together, but there's a one-two-three rhythm to it. Today Halla was hitting the ground with all four feet so closely to the same time that it felt just like one beat. She was also snorting with each stride so it sounded to me just like *snort* (airborne), *snort* (airborne). So we were going down the beach: *snort-snort-snort-snort*. 








Here is a picture of Halla demonstrating her one beat canter, and in the foreground you will see Amore is equally talented at performing an extremely awkward "crazy legs" trot. 








All the folks on the beach were in a festive mood and waved excitedly, beaming at us as we *snort-snort-snorted* by. Thankfully, the one beat canter requires TONS of energy and I could feel that while Nala was taking the steam off the top by running, Halla was working on a slow burn and it was helping keep her from boiling over. 

To be honest, I know we would not have attempted such a thing with these horses a year ago, and we ended up very proud of them by the end of our ride. We passed by a hundred things that could have wrecked many horses. And halfway through the ride we took a break on our wooded trail away from the commotion, the horses came right down from the emotional high and became calm. We steered through the maze of obstacles without any close calls for humans, dogs or horses. 

After returning to the beach from the woods, Halla cantered normally and the horses looked and looked at everything as we passed by but did not spook, although I banged my stirrup against Nala's rider's stirrup about ten times when the horses called unscheduled safety huddles. I said we could probably enter in a parade, if it was one we could just canter through and wave as we passed by at high speed. 

There's something within me that likes to take things right to the edge of what I could possibly be comfortable with, and to hang out there. Right where everything could go wrong, but I am pretty sure it's going to go right. Why that is, I'm not sure. I think perhaps it's because I'm a very mellow, mild, unexcitable person, and somehow I feel the need to push myself and not become stagnant. There were moments of discomfort on our ride, but also an underlying elation as we added to the horses' training, pushed out their comfort level a bit, and also pushed out our own.


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## knightrider

Loved your journal description. I laughed out loud when you wrote about the unscheduled safety huddle! I've had those too.

My close friend had an Arab that I rode with for 30 years. He had those crazy legs all right, and the one beat canter. We called him Peppy le Peu from the Loony Tunes cartoon. When he got excited---sproing, sproing, sproing!


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## Hondo

Subscribing..............


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## horseluvr2524

I like your description, "snort-snort-snort" :lol:

Quite adventurous, gottatrot. We weren't quite that adventurous last night, but did have a little adventure. We climbed a small-ish mountain nearby. The top is high enough that you can see the whole city. We set up there and watched the fireworks all over the city from above. It was pretty cool! Last year I was right in the middle of Cleveland, and it was like being in a war zone. It was extremely loud, there were so many fireworks going off that there was a heavy smoke rolling through the air. They were all around us, every direction, right over our heads. THAT was intense. This year, not nearly as intense, but it was awesome seeing the colorful bursts above the twinkling skyline.

Took DH for a ride yesterday. He was sore from working and did not want to trot or canter. I complied, making it much slower for me than normal, however Belle, the horse he was riding, did not! At the end of the ride, she cantered down a small incline and then galloped back up. It was early morning so he was grumpy about losing his stirrup and did not seem too thrilled about it. Then he admitted that evening that it actually was fun when she galloped. lol! I love it when the horses give their riders little surprises, as long as they aren't dangerous surprises!


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## Bondre

knightrider said:


> Loved your journal description. I laughed out loud when you wrote about the unscheduled safety huddle!


Me too! Such an evocative phrase. 

In that photo, Halla looks just like the goats in alarm mode: they stick their heads and tails up and bounce. It must have been an interesting ride with her bouncing and snorting down the packed beach.


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## gottatrot

Perhaps a boring topic...
But reality is sometimes boring, and often a struggle.
Valhalla has been dropping away small amounts of weight, and for her that almost always means muscle mass.
So - evaluating her diet I realized she has been sifting out her vitamins for a couple of weeks. 

The important vitamin for her is E with a capital E. I am learning that you can visually see if Halla has been getting her E, because suddenly her muscles change and become less bulky, and she begins to lose mass. I confess I had been getting lazy; after coming to the point where Halla nearly was an invalid from muscle loss and lack of coordination, I had hand fed her vitamin E every day to ensure she always was getting the dose. Over the months, I had begun just throwing the vitamins in with her grain, and although I knew she left some grain each day, I hadn't checked to make sure she wasn't sorting all the vitamins out and leaving them behind.

It is a trick when horses are so very picky like Halla. When Amore doesn't take her Cushing's medication, or her vitamins, I simply add a little apple or carrot or mush it all up with a handful of oats and she will scarf everything down. Halla requires some serious study and science experimentation to discover how to get her (extremely vital) supplements in. 

So I spent some hours in scientific study, running a variety of supplements through the Feed XL program I subscribe to and trying to find which ones met all Halla's requirements while also being the most concentrated powder or liquid form so I can coat them onto her feed or as a last resort syringe them into her. 
Instead of multiple pellets from Smartpak, I am going to try mixing some more concentrated vitamins together. Wish me luck.

One thing that has me absolutely stumped is how to get calcium into a picky horse. It's simple, they say. Just feed alfalfa pellets. It only takes a small amount to meet all of a horse's calcium requirements. 
One small problem: Halla detests alfalfa in all forms. Even Amore went off alfalfa pellets after awhile. They require a lot of saliva to break down and apparently taste pretty awful even after soaking. 

Science experiment #2: Dical powder. Easy, just sprinkle it on the food, wet or dry. The horses were looking at me like, "You want us to eat sand?" They tasted it once, and after that I could never fool them again. 

Science experiment #3: TUMS. They come in flavors and you can crush them into powder, and mix them with food. Easy. Turns out Amore likes the mint flavored ones, so that's working out. But Halla? She hates mint, so I'm trying berry flavor but she has been boycotting so far even when I mix it with apple chunks. 

No worries, just a vital electrolyte that also is linked to proper use of magnesium in the body, and the strength of the bones and muscle energy and contraction. I might end up syringing that in with the vitamin E if I can't figure out how to fool her into eating it. 
Then I have to figure out how to go on vacation sometime when my feeding instructions look like this:








...And include the word "syringe."


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## egrogan

Could you mash the tums with a little banana?


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## knightrider

I like the idea of mashing with banana. My Isabeau rejects her "Cough Free" and her ranitidine unless I go to great lengths, and sometimes even then, she sorts it out. It takes 3 people and a twitch to get a syringe in her mouth, so that is out.

I mix her ulcer prevention stuff with molasses and sweet feed and put it on top of her food whenever I am going to trailer her. I give her a small scoop of sweet feed every morning when she goes into the trailer (which she has done literally a thousand times, for 3 years). The molasses is messy and inconvenient when I am preparing to actually trailer her somewhere. 

A mashed banana would be lovely. Now, if I can just train her to eat bananas. It took me two years to get her to eat apples because I tried to train her to take a syringe with applesauce. Instead, she decided she would just not eat apples. Horses are certainly interesting, and Isabeau is more interesting than most. By the way, your post was far from boring!


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## egrogan

Yes, I've seen horses be really funny about fruits. There are a couple at our barn who will bend over backwards for bananas (hence the suggestion, I laughed at the idea initially but have seen it work!). One year, we had an overabundance of pears, and I know plenty of horses that love them- but when I tried to give them to Isabel as a treat, she glared at me like I was trying to kill her. She refused to consider them food. So the chickens got the extra pears instead


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## Hondo

Just shaking my head. Guess I'm not alone. At least glad to learn Hondo is normal in being food picky.


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## gottatrot

Interesting, I've never tried feeding horses bananas. I've always fed "traditional" treats such as apples and carrots.

Yesterday and today I had some good rides. Halla is working very solidly for me and her skills are improving. She has figured out a few things...

One is that if I ask her to collect up at the canter, it will help her find the way through a rough patch of ground more easily. So she has started gathering up very nicely for me when I ask.

Two is that she now understands my steering will help us neatly avoid obstacles in our path. The type of horse Halla is, she has a natural resistance to things she doesn't understand, and natural cooperation with things she does. So now that she's decided I have good steering and timing, and can judge our speed to help us avoid holes, logs, bumps and lumps, she is responding very well to taking the path I choose for us. 

Three is that she has learned that she is going to get to run and use her energy, and that she is going to get tired. So she is relaxing more and more and not worrying about whether she will gallop, instead she is conserving her energy for the task at hand.

Such a smart horse, she has also figured out that when we both see a very smooth, flat piece of sand and I relax that I plan to let her stretch out. So I can feel in her body when she notices that there is smooth sailing ahead, and the very instant I think about letting her go, she is already beginning to stretch out. 

I really enjoy riding a horse with so many gears. Although I can't say she has gears at the trot, between her slow canter and fast gallop she has at least six gears. She is beginning to learn which gear I've chosen at the moment, and will stay in that gear until I ask for a change. 

Today we ran over some crab shells that crackled and it didn't startle Halla. We ran through a barrage of bubbles some children were blowing into the wind, and it didn't phase her or Nala. 









A small child, about three years old sprinted away from his mother and began chasing us as fast as he could. The mother screamed, and ran after but could not catch him. Then she saw me laughing as I cantered on, because of course the child could never catch up fast enough to be in danger. She stopped running and began laughing too. I thought I probably just met either a one-day famous horse trainer or a one-day Olympic runner. He was determined to catch the horse, for sure.

After taking Halla out with Nala for about 7 miles, I met up with my friend who was getting on Satin for the first time after her concussion. The doctor cleared her for riding last week. 
She confessed to me that she was nervous, and almost called me to cancel. 








Satin did not give her much time to think about that. She was up and prancy, and my friend had to keep her focused and busy. On the way home, she wanted to rush so my friend got off and made her walk on the lead so she went home at a slower pace. 

Amore had not been on the beach since the accident, only around the fields on rides so of course she had forgotten most of her courage. At first, she spooked at her shadow. If she caught sight of it in front of her, she stopped, leaned back and stared at it. When she turned her head for a better look, it moved and that was startling. On the way home, the wind was behind us and kept wrapping her tail around her legs. When her tail tangled around her legs, she kicked out and darted forward. 








This happened about three times, and at first I couldn't figure out what was bothering her until the rider behind said it was her tail. HER TAIL. That's my horse, folks. If you didn't believe me when I said she was the silliest horse there ever was, perhaps you do now.

Of course, the last ride we did around the fields a few days ago she was trotting and looking back over her shoulder like something was chasing us, so perhaps someone has switched out her tail for a new one and she's having difficulty adjusting.


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## knightrider

I tried putting Isabeau's ranitidine in a mashed up banana before I trailered her yesterday and she ate every bite of it. What a wonderful suggestion. The banana is a bit greasy and slides right out of the bowl, unlike molasses.

Isabeau is the only horse of my four who likes asparagus. And she doesn't like most things. My Chorro will eat anything I put in my hand (including rocks, but he spits them back out), but he wouldn't eat asparagus.

Although Isabeau ate the ranitidine right up, it did not stop her from kicking in the trailer. Boo. I will never give up. We'll find the key to not kicking some day.

Did I already say that I love your journal? I'm always pleased to see a new entry.


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## gottatrot

*Treeless Saddles*

I think I finally have enough experience and miles in treeless saddles to give an informed opinion about the pros and cons of riding in them.

I know that buying one in the first place was a difficult decision for me, and I had many questions that I could not find satisfactory answers to.

First, I would like to say that riding in a quality treeless saddle is nothing like riding bareback. If you want to feel like you are right down on the horse's back or feel every movement your horse makes, then just get a bareback pad. A good treeless saddle is nothing like a bareback pad because it has different goals of providing as much weight distribution as possible without a hard tree, and also keeping the rider off the horse's spine.

What I find is that there are serious pros and cons to treeless saddles. 

If you have a horse with any significant asymmetry to the back, shoulders, or with a downhill or uphill build, it can be extremely difficult if not impossible to get a saddle to fit well. For these horses, removing the hard and inflexible tree can be the answer. So that is a serious "pro." 

Without a hard tree, the rider will lose some stability. When I learned this, it made me feel insecure about riding in a treeless saddle. The last thing I want is to be galloping full out on a horse, to have that horse dart unexpectedly to one side and have my saddle slip off balance. I wondered if it would be safe to ride very hard in a treeless saddle.

In my experience, that is not the kind of stability you lose. I've found the high quality treeless saddles I've ridden in to be as secure as a treed saddle and as little likely to slip off to one side. The only time you may have one come over is if your girth becomes loose after riding awhile, and you try to mount from the ground. Again, this is the same situation I've experienced with treed saddles. 

The stability you lose is more difficult to describe. Imagine if you were trying to post with your feet on hard ground, and then imagine instead that you were trying to post with your feet on a small trampoline. Instead of a tree underneath your stirrup bars, there is the soft padding of the panels and seat. So it makes you have to use your muscles a bit more to stabilize the motion, versus having something stable to push against.

Now imagine your galloping horse has stretched out and is running full bore but is ignoring your gentle half halts and you need to stand up and use your core to remind her to slow. That is where you can feel the difference in having a lack of hard structure to stabilize things. It definitely takes more strength and balance - it's as if your body has nothing hard to brace _against_, so you must use even more core and upper body strength instead of relying on the saddle itself to assist you. Again, this is nothing like riding bareback, in which case you are rather helpless in this type of situation. 

As far as riding out spooks, bucks, twists and turns, treeless saddles seem as stable if not superior to treed saddles. I believe you may follow the motion better and perhaps get a little "pre-cognition" that something is coming your way. 

With my mare, Halla, I would personally prefer to ride in a treed saddle. My dressage saddle that appears to fit her very well is very stable for galloping, two-pointing, and I can ride very comfortably in it. However, due to her downhill build, after a couple long rides, her back gets a bit sore behind the shoulders. When I put the treeless on, this clears up quickly. I could perhaps fix this issue with a riser pad under the front of the saddle, but I have not yet found one thin enough to not compromise the fit. A Thinline might work, but they are very expensive to try. In contrast, with a treeless it was extremely easy to shim up the front of a pad in order to create the balance needed to ride a downhill horse.

Something else to consider is that many treeless brands have such a wide twist they are too uncomfortable to ride in for hard and long rides on a wide horse. I sold my Freeform for this reason. Some brands such as Sensation, Ghost and others are known for a narrow twist. My Ghost saddles are so light I can carry them higher than my head with one hand. 

To summarize: for a lightweight rider, a treeless saddle can be very comfortable and help with the difficult to fit horse. Both my horses seem to have no pressure points or soreness when ridden in treeless saddles. As a heavy two-pointer, I find no dry spots underneath my saddles after a long ride and the horses continue to have strong back muscles. 

The type of stability you will lose in a treeless saddle is not related to balance, but to strength and the muscles required to two point, post, and use your core. 
In my opinion, a quality treeless saddle is safe, comfortable, and very good for a horses' back, although I am well within the recommended weight limits.








Sensation Saddle








Ghost Saddle​


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## Hondo

Interesting.

I recently went in between treed and treeless. I bought a Ralide tree and installed it in my old 1992 Crates endurance saddle.

The tree was very interesting to play with prior to installing. With the rear ends of the bars sitting on the floor and holding the front of the bars, the tree could be easily twisted side to side but was much stiffer fore and aft.

Have you tried a flex of any brand? That would call for another great blog.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Have you tried a flex of any brand?


I like the idea of a flex tree. I've ridden in several but not on my own horses. I do know someone who bought a Circle Y flex tree, which is a good brand and I've owned two quality Circle Y saddles. 

This particular Circle Y flex tree had a screw underneath the cantle which worked its way out and the screw head was putting pressure on the horse's spine. The rider was not observant and went for a few rides this way using a thin saddle pad. The screw caused a hematoma on the horse's spine which calcified, and ended up restricting the horse's back mobility. Doesn't seem related to the flex tree, but several people I know have avoided them since this situation occurred.

****************************************************
Went for a 9 mile ride today with Halla and Nala. We have suspected Nala was very fast and the last time we rode I was wearing my GPS watch so got some average speeds. 
Halla's normal canter was about 12-14 MPH and her trot about 8-9 MPH. Nala's trot was about 14 MPH and when Halla galloped it was around 28 MPH. Nala was disappearing ahead of us so we figured she was probably going about 10 MPH faster.

Today I had Nala's rider wear the GPS watch so we could clock her. Nala's fast canter was around 25 MPH and her gallop went up to 47.3 MPH! Wow, we knew she was fast but that is very fast. The fastest sprint record I know of is 55 MPH. 

Nala did not make it on the track, but I'm guessing as a three and four year old she wasn't mature enough mentally to settle since she was still "chucking riders off" a little over a year ago. Now she is 12 years old and settling down, and learning how to really gallop. 

From what I've heard, Arabs gallop at speeds closer to 35 MPH. I'm guessing Halla hits 30 MPH sometimes and in her defense, she is 20 years old now...I know we kept up with some less speedy Thoroughbreds several years ago, and she's still a fairly swift horse. (Just in case Halla ever reads this, wouldn't want to hurt her feelings). 
:gallop:


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## Hondo

The Ralide flex tree is injection molded. No screws .Very inexpensive and used in less expensive saddles for the most part. Early on, I read, they had some problem with hardening and cracking over time but the word now is that after alterations to the chemistry the early problems are gone. Also some of the early models had too much flex front to back and allowed contact in the center with the spine. I've been watching Hondo's back and have seen no problem or evidence. That problem was also reported to have been corrected. I was really impressed when playing with it prior to installation how it really seemed it would move with the horse rather than being a rigid board on top of the horse. I was impressed by the idea that a perfectly fitting rigid saddle ceased to fit once the horse began to move. I think that was part of a sales pitch.

I've read a lot about othel flex trees but am not convinced of their superiority. Heavy ranch work and roping still requires a rigid tree I've read. I don't think a two thousand pound bull would be good for a flex tree.

*****************************************************************

55 MPH on a horse would be insane for me a beginner who mostly just goes for walks. The one time Hondo spooked into a dead run was incredibly fun though. I was amazed at how smooth it was. I hesitated for a while before pulling him up. The few times I need to trot, gallop, or do a ditch jump are done two point as I have not learned to either sit or post the trot. And with my knees I try to avoid two point. Alas, age does take it's toll.

I have used my GPS to check Hondo's walking speeds and trotting speeds also. Love those electronic toys. Also use a heart rate monitor on some more difficult rides/climbs. I've been surprised at how fast he recovers. And I hang a S.P.O.T. on a collar when he's with the large herd so I can find him more easily. Fun to check on him with my smart phone.

And finally, at 74, I just don't want to be riding a horse that enjoys "chucking their riders off". hee, liked that phrase. A few years ago though, I might have considered it fun.


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## bsms

From 2012, although the tree looked at might be an older model:

Checking out a flex tree

There are as many variables possible with a flex tree as a non-flex tree. IIRC, western saddle trees were originally made of pine and rawhide. Later, fiberglass was used instead of rawhide. Fiberglass makes the tree stronger and does a very good job of protecting the wood from insects and moisture, but it also makes the tree stiffer. I believe the tree in my saddle uses both fiberglass and rawhide. Most upper end saddles use either rawhide or bull hide.

I suspect "flex" is overrated compared to actual shape of the bars.

THE SADDLE

The Saddle Tree

Differences between Saddle Trees

We have an Abetta and it is a great saddle for its price point - $360 new. A cheap ralide saddle will be much better than a cheap wood tree saddle, but they cannot compete with good wood tree saddles. I would steer clear of older flex designs, but the recent ones might be very good by now. Their real popularity is with the manufacturers, which can save a lot of money by getting away from hand finishing. But that is not all bad. Gun manufacturers using CNC machinery now make guns with tighter tolerances than many hand finished guns had in the 70s. It might be saddle makers will come up with a combination that will allow very good saddle trees to be made cheap, which would benefit almost everyone.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I suspect "flex" is overrated compared to actual shape of the bars.


Don't understand what you are saying here. Ralide has many many trees to choose from including Arabian. I chose a full quarter horse bar twist and gullet width. I realize there are conflicts on the proper way to measure and fit, but that's what I chose based on measurements.

If I were to buy a new saddle made on a Ralide tree, I would need to know the Ralide number of the tree so I could look up the specs and purpose of the tree. https://www.ralide.com/store/home.php?cat=8

The Ralide flex really doesn't flex that much except if the bar ends are held rigid at one end the other ends can flex quite easily. The thing that really hit me was the idea if a custom tree was perfectly fit to a particular horse while standing straight, once the horse shifted his weight or began to move, the fit would no longer be perfect. A horse would never be measured by any method while standing off center as if moving.

In an ideal world, the bars would follow the movement of the horse.

I'm beginning to learn to pack and found a pack tree that moves with the animal, the only one like it. Ben Masters actually did a review on it. Liked it.

Hope this is still at least indirectly related to the topic as it deals with fitting saddles to a horse that does move rather than remain stationary, and as mentioned in the video, whose conformation changes a little after a couple of days on the trail.

I want one.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...The thing that really hit me was the idea if a custom tree was perfectly fit to a particular horse while standing straight, once the horse shifted his weight or began to move, the fit would no longer be perfect. A horse would never be measured by any method while standing off center as if moving.
> 
> In an ideal world, the bars would follow the movement of the horse....


I disagree. The horse's back is itself a very inflexible object. Their back does not round up, down or sideways to any great degree. Their back is more like a stiff lever, than can go up at one end or the other, but it doesn't change shape very much in the area of the saddle.

A western saddle has the tree angled out at the tips to allow the horse's back to slide under the bars, but a tree that fits will fit both when the horse is standing still and at a canter.


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## Hondo

Well, I'm no expert for certain, but these guys and others seem to be and seem to disagree with you, unless I'm misreading something. I'm open to learning........

Quote: A flex tree saddle has bars that are flexible, allowing the saddle to flex with the horse. The flexibility 'enhances' an already proper fit, it doesn't attempt to create it. Flexible bars work like the arch support of a shoe; they provide the correct fit while the flexibility allows unrestricted movement and bend away from pressure. 

What is a Flex Tree?


"The flexible bars promise to conform to your horse perfectly, even while in motion, allowing freedom of movement and enhancing the horse’s natural gait. "


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I disagree. The horse's back is itself a very inflexible object. Their back does not round up, down or sideways to any great degree. Their back is more like a stiff lever, than can go up at one end or the other, but it doesn't change shape very much in the area of the saddle.


I have to agree with this. The issues I've had with back soreness have related to either too much movement from the saddle or too much pressure. Sometimes that pressure has been from a channel too narrow for the horse's spine (especially in the cantle area). Sometimes it has been from bridging or a poor match to the slope or lack of slope to the horse's back. 

The saddle that fits won't restrict or pinch the shoulder, and won't involve the hip. The back itself needs the tree to fit so there is no bridging front to back, and so the spine has adequate clearance. 

My dressage saddle leaves the shoulder movement clear on Halla, the channel is wide enough and the shape matches the slope of the back. It is also short enough. However, since the slope of the back runs downhill, the pressure of the rider tends to concentrate at the front of the saddle on the muscles just behind the shoulder blade and these get sore. If I can find a saddle pad that will lift the front just a bit and also not make the channel too narrow, I think the problem would be fixed. I have ordered an Ultra Thinline pad to try.

The trick with my horses is that their backs are so wide, they wear XW trees. With that very round shape, it is difficult to fit any kind of extra padding underneath the saddle to fix problems without making the saddle too narrow. 

Now if your horse's back muscling is very different from side to side, that's where a solid tree or even a flex tree can give you problems that you may or may not be able to fix with shims and pads.


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## bsms

"_But how flexible is it where it counts - at the bar tips and edges where they might dig in?...Not a significant amount of deflection for that amount of pressure, is there? In playing with this tree, it is really hard to get the tips or edges to move much at all. So we can't see them flexing out of the way as the horse moves. The rubber is just too stiff...

...How about the bar design? Well, here's the front bar tip. It is very close to dead flat with a narrow edge. Not much relief or curve built into that to allow for shoulder movement. Maybe they count on the flexible material rather than bar shape to fit the horse but as we saw, the bars aren't that flexible...

...But when our niece sat on the tree, the answer to our question about what stops the bars from flexing under the rider's weight became clear - nothing! The poor relief built into the bar tips was inconsequential because the bar tips had no pressure on them at all. All the pressure was concentrated under the rider.._."

Checking out a flex tree

"_So there are basically two rules for well designed trees: 

*Principle Number One – “No Poking”. In other words, don’t dig in anywhere.

Principle Number Two – “Distribute the Pressure”. Have as much surface area as possible on the horse without breaking Rule Number One.*

There is a fair amount of leeway within Principle Number Two, but you can’t break Principle Number One without consequences for the horse. To follow these principles, the shape of the bars must match the shape and size of the horse with enough edge relief that there are no pressure points. When this is correct, the pressure under the saddle will change its area of distribution on the back throughout each stride the horse takes, but it is always disseminated over a wide enough surface area that the pressure in any one spot is low. This is why a well designed tree will fit a range of horses."_

Factors That Affect Tree Fit

In a sense, a western saddle should float on top of the back. It is almost like a sled, allowing the back to slide around a little underneath it. At a canter, as the horse's back needs to come up and move forward, it should slide underneath the rear of the saddle and lever it up freely. In the front, the shoulders need to be able to move back and slide underneath.

However, a place where I disagree with the Nikkels is in the shoulder motion. Both Trooper and Bandit have big shoulders that do NOT slide well under any saddle I've tried, so I need to put the saddle further back than the Nikkels recommend.

The makers have made changes since the Nikkels looked at a flex tree. Notice Circle Y now uses different strengths of material to allow the edges to flex more than previous models, but the center to flex less. I think western saddle trees for trail saddles will move to some variation of the flex-tree. The flex trees are moving into a cross between treed saddles and treeless. I would be willing to buy a Flex2 model, but not the early flex trees.

I think the problem with early treeless models was that they eliminated the poke at the expense of distributing pressure. Newer models are combining with special saddle pads to allow less poking while still distributing pressure. I think they are moving into the territory of using an upper and lower tree, so to speak, to give the rider a saddle that supports him but also a lower shape that distributes weight without poking. I'm surprised western saddles haven't explored that niche, since western riders are already used to the dichotomy between "saddle" and "pad".

10 years from now, it might be possible to tell Dakota Saddlery, for example, that you would like a "Rider Seat #3" - which would be one of their 10 shapes that allow for the rider to saddle interface. Then tell them you need the "Horse Seat #2" (or saddle pad #2?), which might be a semi-QH bars but with more flair to the front. Dakota would combine Rider #3 & Horse #2 to create a tree that fits both horse and rider, then make the saddle and ship it to you. If you got a new horse, you would buy a different "horse seat", which would combine with your current "rider seat" to give you a saddle that would fit you both without needing to buy an entirely new saddle.

Happily, the saddle I had made for Mia fits Bandit OK. It has a bit too much curve, which reduces pressure distribution, but it stays stable even when he scrambles up out of a wash, or drops down into one - using just the normal cinch. And at 160 lbs, I don't create as much pressure as a 250 lb rider, and Bandit won't do things like barrel racing or jumping. So he may use it for years to come - even if space age materials replace wooden trees!


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## Hondo

Did anybody watch the part of the video where the guy shows how the front of the tree moves with the horse's shoulders?

This was exactly the action I found when playing with the bare Ralide flex. And I had the bare original Crates rawhide covered wooden tree right beside it for comparison.

Front to rear for each bar or the entire saddle there was very little more flex in the Ralide than in the Crates. The bars are a full quarter horse western shape.

With the rear of both bars on the floor and held with my feet, I could easily oscillate the front of the bars back and forth as shown on the pack saddle video. There was some flex in the Crates but very very little.

My first riding was bareback and I have ridden Hondo bareback some. Maybe it's my imagination but I sure seem to feel movement underneath me. And in the saddle too.

If a fiberglass sheet could somehow be perfectly molded over the support area of the horses back while he stood perfectly motionless, would the contact areas remain when he started walking, cantering, or even if he just rested a hind foot?

I'm just having difficulty getting my head around the idea that a horse's back is so stiff that the fiberglass mold would maintain full contact as when molded.

Is that what you guys are saying?

BTW, Ralide also injection molds rigid trees. I have one of their rigid pack saddle trees. FQH bars also.


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## Hondo

Someone explain this to me please. If a horse's back is rigid under the saddle, then why did Circle Y go to the expense to design a flex tree?

The girl in the second video seems to be saying exactly the opposite, that the horse's back is not rigid. But maybe I'm still misunderstanding something. BTW, Circle Y also builds saddle on the Ralide tree according to the link I posted.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Did anybody watch the part of the video where the guy shows how the front of the tree moves with the horse's shoulders?











So that's where I would say the flex tree would help...if the shoulders are in fact unable to slide underneath the saddle, and the saddle is far forward, you can see how that would affect the horse's movement as the horse bends. I always try to keep the shoulder free, and I prefer my english saddles to have a hoop tree since on my wide horses I've found the shoulder can slide easily back underneath the front of the saddle. 

But even when bucking or grazing the horse's back "rounds up" very minimally. And the side to side movement is mainly in the shoulders and the hips. 
So with a properly fitting tree, those areas that bend and flex on the horse's body do not affect the saddle. 








Here's how the english saddle tree hopefully also does not interfere with the parts of the horse that flex but rather sits just over the back and not the shoulders or hip.


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## tinyliny

what's a hoop tree?


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## Hondo

I remember reading that an English saddle by design must sit behind the furthest movement of the shoulders or the shoulder bones can be injured. But the Western saddle with it's flare is designed for the shoulders to slide back under with the flare properly positioned forward of the rearward movement of the shoulders.

The Western saddle, as I read a year or so ago, was designed in order for one saddle to tolerably fit several horses as cowboys riding a string of horses could not have a saddle for each.

The Crates tree is too narrow in the gullet for Hondo which is why I experimented with the Ralide tree but tomorrow I'll sit the bare Crates on him and walk him around a bit and see what I see.

Maybe strap a camera above his cinch line and video his bare back while in motion. What fun.

Another area of study to delve into.

And BTW, the Ralide tree does have a metal insert cast into the pommel that prevents the gullet width from changing. A changing gullet width would be a bad thing I'd think. But the entire pommel does easily twist left and right relative to the cantle which it does seem would facilitate the movement of the shoulders going back further under the bars with each stride. And downhill those shoulders seem to move even farther back with each stride. Perhaps in hard barrel racing turns and slide stops as well, both of which will remain forever beyond my skill level but not steep downhills.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> what's a hoop tree?


It's also called a "U" or "Freedom" tree.
The usual tree shape for an english saddle is like a peaked roof or top of a triangle. A hoop tree is shaped like an upside down "U."
It fits horses better that have mutton withers or very broad backs such as Arabians, Haflingers, etc.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I remember reading that an English saddle by design must sit behind the furthest movement of the shoulders or the shoulder bones can be injured. But the Western saddle with it's flare is designed for the shoulders to slide back under with the flare properly positioned forward of the rearward movement of the shoulders.


Ideally, yes. But you see people riding in their English saddles over the horse's shoulder and you see Western saddles that have the bar angles too steep/narrow or wide for the horse and poking down into the horse's shoulders.










Hondo said:


> The Western saddle, as I read a year or so ago, was designed in order for one saddle to tolerably fit several horses as cowboys riding a string of horses could not have a saddle for each.


Ideally, that works for many people as in this quote:


> When we build a tree, we build for a type of horse. Even for owners with a single horse they are trying to fit, we work to determine the body type of their horse, and then fit that type, not that horse. Is this saddle going to be used on narrow thoroughbred types, halter class quarter horse types, horses that are in working shape or horses that are primarily pasture ornaments? * If people ride both narrow thoroughbreds and barrel shaped quarter horses, they won’t be able to fit that diversity of types well with one saddle*. Most people, however, have variations within one general body type of horse, and so we build to fit the most common type they ride, knowing there is leeway built in for a range around that ideal fit.


Factors That Affect Tree Fit
I've found that Arab saddles will fit most Arabs and similarly shaped horses. Same with QHs, TBs, etc. But for longer miles, it pays to be more particular and to find a saddle that fits that horse more exactly rather than fitting a "type."


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## Hondo

I woke up realizing I've never seen mention of a flex English saddle. In addition to what I've been told here, that adds a lot of support for the back not moving, or at least not much, in that area. So it sounds like the flex problem does come down to just Western trees and the shoulders. Or maybe also the bar flare that extends past the last rib?

Rimmey is half Arabian and half Haflinger and is mutton backed I've been told by his previous rider. His measurements are very close to Hondo's at the back of the scapula using that and the end of the mane. When I was measuring Hondo and decided the Crates tree was way too narrow for him and decided to experiment with a Ralide, the 7 inch gullet on the FQH did seem too narrow but that was the widest other than the wide designation that didn't show the width in numbers and the Arabian tree which also didn't show. I was afraid I'd done something wrong in my measurement and was afraid I'd get one to wide as Hondo is "supposed" to be QH.

After this very helpful discussion I can see a new tree or perhaps a new saddle on the horizon. The fit is at least a lot better than it was and we only walk around. He does have a SupraCor pad which should help the poor horse some.

I'm just starting to look harder at saddle fit having spent most all of my study time so far on foot care.

They both also have very short backs. I had already cut Hondo's tree and saddle down for length a year or so ago when he rolled and broke a tree. I had done a little reading at that time but didn't follow up. Should have.

I think I'm on the right track now.


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## bsms

The ranch I visited last month is a good example of why some can get away with using one saddle. The owner developed a preference for half-Arabians. His "ideal" horse is half-Appy, at least half-Arabian, and tends to greys - just because he likes grey. He currently owns 25 horses, and most are related to Trooper - because Trooper's sire (half-Appy, Half-Arabian) was an excellent horse. Pretty much any horse on his place can do fine with semi-QH bars for the tree. They are all A-frame, slab-sided horses, 800-900 lbs, and a type I suspect gottatrot can relate to:








​ 







​ 







​ 
I seem to have a "type" too - Bandit, Mia & Trooper:








​ 
Mia's saddle would fit any of the horses pictured above. Not perfectly, but more than good enough. Oddly enough, it fits Cowboy as well - mainly because he's stocky, but only 13 hands high.

Of course, a lot of ranches use a variety of horses. But a lot do not...like my friend, they develop a taste for a certain style of horse. The Cavalry did too. They liked a horse that was 15-16 hands, weighing 900-1100 lbs, with some thoroughbred background. They sometimes took what they could get, but they wanted to buy horses of similar build.

Steele Saddle Tree is the largest manufacturer of western saddle trees. They have 10 standard models that will fit almost any horse (including mules), and 4 of the 10 cover most horses:

Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

Here is a diagram of the horse's back with vertical mobility added:








​
https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/12178/1/Scheven_Christina_von.pdf

There is not much vertical bending possible under the saddle area (roughly T6 to T18 English, and back further western). There IS more lateral movement possible, and the greatest lateral movement comes under the saddle:








​
But even then, horses cannot significantly bend their backs sideways. Most of the motion we feel comes from where they put their feet, and how the MOTION their foot movement creates FEELS to us. So freedom of the SHOULDER is important, but the back - at least the part under the saddle - is pretty stable.

More important is getting the shape right, because it is the shape that distributes weight equally. I disliked my jump saddle. Although it felt good to me, it had a narrow channel and put too much pressure very close to the spine. For MY riding, a western saddle has two things I really like:

1 - They do a very good job of distributing weight well away from the muscles along the spine of my A-frame horses - particularly narrow Bandit.

2 - Wool felt pads handle Arizona sweat better than a cotton sheet beneath a leather panel.

If gottatrot will forgive the speculation, I'd love to see someone design a "western jump saddle" with ralide tree and nylon. It would be much flatter than a traditional western saddle and have no horn, but it would distribute weight like a western tree and extend to the loin. It would weigh 13-14 lbs (my Abetta weighs 15 lbs, and my Bates CC saddle weighed 12 lbs IIRC). It would have a lot of flare to the front to accommodate shoulder movement.

It would be interesting to see how horses would jump with such a saddle. My guess is that good jumpers would get better performance out of an English design, but beginners and part-time recreational jumpers would get a better performance from the western one - because it would protect the back better for any imbalance or jarring by the rider. It will never happen, of course. The really interesting work in saddles is being done by the treeless folks, because the standard saddle makers - and their customers - are stuck in tradition. The treeless folks are the ones "thinking outside the phalanx " (a military formation that dominated tactics for 500 years), or "outside the box" as it is more commonly known...

Most of us, I fear, are still stuck in the phalanx and constrained by the box :wink: :

















​


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## Hondo

Thanks for that info BSMS. I saved the pictures and also the PDF. I'm still struck by the idea that even with the minimal movement in the back, discounting shoulder movement, that the flex saddle "might" free up the horse a little and be a little more comfortable. And maybe make a close fit even a little closer. This is based on my physical examination of the Ralide.

Looking at the Ralides again this morning I noticed the Arabian has a 6.5 inch gullet where the FQH has 7 inches. But the bars are Arabian twist. So apparently the Arabian is more narrow at the point of measure for the gullet but spread out more.

I really like my Supracor pad for it's resiliency and claimed cooling effect. I think it helps the fit to be that much better. Pads, that's another topic for a future post. 

I live on a ranch with a herd of 17 horses, down from 22 when I first came. All types and sizes. Hondo and Rimmey are actually ponies with Hondo being 14HH and Rimmey about 14.5HH. Using measurements both run around 900 pounds. Hondo goes to the vet tomorrow so hopefully I'll get an accurate weight on him.

I've learned a lot from the posts following gottatrot's initial post. And I suspect I'll know more when I complete the digestion of the PDF.

PS: My life in it's entirety is lived mostly out of the box


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## Hondo

I was reading about the Mule Man whose been living outdoors for thirty years and somehow stumbled upon a McClellan Flexible saddle. Guess the concept is not so new.

Fact 1: Captain George McClellan studied European cavalry tactics and equipment before the outbreak of the American Civil War, leading to the development of his famed saddle.
Fact 2: *The McClellan saddle was lightweight and flexible, causing less fatigue than the military's then-standard Jennifer saddle*.
Fact 3: An extraordinarily long-lived design, the McClellan saddle has seen constant use in militaries around the world for more than 150 years.
Fact 4: George Brinton McClellan was a key general in the American Civil War and the Democratic presidential candidate in 1864.

McClellan Pack Saddle - Pawn Stars: The Game Wiki - Wikia

Figured I'd be remiss if I did not add this to the discussion.


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## tinyliny

with regard to the whole shoulder blade moving backward thing. . I remember seeing a video where the fellow was talking about how when the shoulder blade goes back is at the place in the stride when that leg is unweighted, as the hrose is reaching forward, so it can usually slide under the bar a bit, and it will often also slide forward on the ribcage a bit, o not be as tight as one might think. when the horse is weighting a particular front leg, the shoulder blade is well forward of the front edge of the tree.


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## gottatrot

> (BSMS) I'd love to see someone design a "western jump saddle" with ralide tree and nylon. It would be much flatter than a traditional western saddle and have no horn, but it would distribute weight like a western tree and extend to the loin. It would weigh 13-14 lbs (my Abetta weighs 15 lbs, and my Bates CC saddle weighed 12 lbs IIRC). It would have a lot of flare to the front to accommodate shoulder movement.


It sounds a bit like some of the endurance saddle models out there. My friends are really into the King endurance saddles right now. They ended up giving up on english saddles because they had so many issues with sore backs. Two of them are large, heavy riders around 6' and over 200 lbs. Although they ride big horses, they ride finer boned athletic types that are built like TBs. So the backs did not hold up well. They do not like Western, and have had much better luck with these endurance models that distribute the weight better.

Last summer I rode with them and I think I could get used to riding in that type of saddle if the seat size was appropriate for me. As it was I was maneuvering forward and back a lot. But easily galloped so even then the balance wasn't that off for me.

The McClellan saddles I've seen look like they would work pretty well for the horse, but do not look comfortable for the rider. 


> (Tinyliny)
> I remember seeing a video where the fellow was talking about how when the shoulder blade goes back is at the place in the stride when that leg is unweighted, as the hrose is reaching forward, so it can usually slide under the bar a bit, and it will often also slide forward on the ribcage a bit, o not be as tight as one might think. when the horse is weighting a particular front leg, the shoulder blade is well forward of the front edge of the tree.


I've never had the option with my horses of putting the saddle over the shoulder blade - Amore has always bucked when saddles touched the shoulder blade. Before I could figure out how to fit a saddle to her odd shape, if a saddle slid forward she would start hunching or bucking and I'd have to get off and move it back. She won't even tolerate a pommel bag on the front of the saddle that flops over her shoulders. Halla has such huge muscling behind the shoulder blades that if a saddle doesn't give room, it pushes the saddle off balance very badly because her left shoulder is bigger than the right. 

Yes, saddle pads are another interesting discussion. I'll let you know what I think of the Thinline pad when it comes. 

I've been mulling over a couple other things I've been reading about on other threads. One is having a back cinch on a Western saddle. When I look at the images of a properly fitting tree on a horse's back, I really don't see how a saddle would flip up in the back unless it didn't fit the horse. I've never used a back cinch, and I could see how roping bulls might be a different thing since their massive weight could pull a saddle right off a horse. But for trail riding? If a saddle was moving around that much, I would have to think the saddle tree didn't fit the horse.

Another topic was tightening a girth and how it really should be rather loose. I've heard it harped on quite a bit about how a person shouldn't over tighten a girth. Maybe I've never seen these super tightened up girths in person. I was reading that they did a study on race horses and how an over tightened girth affected the ability to take a deep breath and the stride length. But over the years I've always tightened my girths pretty much as tight as I can. Regardless, if I have to get off later in the ride, I find my saddle is loose enough that I have to not put too much pressure in the stirrup or my saddle will slide over to the side if I try to mount from the ground. 

They say a good rider doesn't really even need a cinch in order to keep the saddle balanced. Hmm...apparently their horses are so beautifully balanced that their body doesn't lean whatsoever at the canter? Sometimes on a slanted hill, taking the wrong lead we're kind of leaning sideways down the hill until I make my horse swap over. Maybe these are horses with shark fin withers? Without panels on the saddle, there is no way a person could mount from the ground on my horses. As well, we've been known to leap and flip around in ways that without a cinch the saddle would go flying into the bushes. 

I've had more trouble over the years with novice riders where I or someone else didn't double check the cinch! I've glanced behind to see if a rider was all right only to see them cantering up a hill behind me with the saddle riding on the side of the horse's barrel, and their torso horizontal with the ground. I've also had them come up the hill behind me bucking because the saddle is sitting over the horse's loin. I've put a saddle on too loosely myself and had a horse buck very hard...when I looked at the horse from my seat on the ground I saw the saddle was on the horse's neck. 

Personally, I do not leave a girth hanging loosely. I can stick my fingers underneath no matter how I strain to get it as tight as possible, and the horses can run and spook just fine, thank you.


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> I've been mulling over a couple other things I've been reading about on other threads. One is having a back cinch on a Western saddle. When I look at the images of a properly fitting tree on a horse's back, I really don't see how a saddle would flip up in the back unless it didn't fit the horse. I've never used a back cinch, and I could see how roping bulls might be a different thing since their massive weight could pull a saddle right off a horse. But for trail riding? If a saddle was moving around that much, I would have to think the saddle tree didn't fit the horse.
> 
> Another topic was tightening a girth and how it really should be rather loose. I've heard it harped on quite a bit about how a person shouldn't over tighten a girth. Maybe I've never seen these super tightened up girths in person. I was reading that they did a study on race horses and how an over tightened girth affected the ability to take a deep breath and the stride length. But over the years I've always tightened my girths pretty much as tight as I can. Regardless, if I have to get off later in the ride, I find my saddle is loose enough that I have to not put too much pressure in the stirrup or my saddle will slide over to the side if I try to mount from the ground.
> 
> They say a good rider doesn't really even need a cinch in order to keep the saddle balanced. Hmm...apparently their horses are so beautifully balanced that their body doesn't lean whatsoever at the canter? Sometimes on a slanted hill, taking the wrong lead we're kind of leaning sideways down the hill until I make my horse swap over. Maybe these are horses with shark fin withers? Without panels on the saddle, there is no way a person could mount from the ground on my horses. As well, we've been known to leap and flip around in ways that without a cinch the saddle would go flying into the bushes.
> 
> I've had more trouble over the years with novice riders where I or someone else didn't double check the cinch! I've glanced behind to see if a rider was all right only to see them cantering up a hill behind me with the saddle riding on the side of the horse's barrel, and their torso horizontal with the ground. I've also had them come up the hill behind me bucking because the saddle is sitting over the horse's loin. I've put a saddle on too loosely myself and had a horse buck very hard...when I looked at the horse from my seat on the ground I saw the saddle was on the horse's neck.
> 
> Personally, I do not leave a girth hanging loosely. I can stick my fingers underneath no matter how I strain to get it as tight as possible, and the horses can run and spook just fine, thank you.



the western saddles have a variety of rigging locations. when a saddle is what's called "full rigged", the cinch is attached at a line that is right along the front of the tree, so , about as far forward as possible. in such a saddle, a rear cinch is pretty important to have the saddle lay flat when tightening it down. and, like you said, when there is the tremendous torque of roping a calf.

then there is 7/8th's rigging, 5/8th's rigging, and centerfire. these involve the cinch attach point moving further and further back. the further back you get, the less need for a rear cinch.

what you often see is western riders not having the rear cinch tightened enough to have any efficacy. it become nothing more than a fashion statement, or, coming into play only if or when the front of the saddle dips a lot, and the back lifts a lot, so, not very often. 
any western saddle that is rigged pretty close to the front should use a rear cinch.

do I use one, on my western saddle? not much. I'm as lazy as the best of them.


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## bsms

I kind of disagree about rear cinches having anything to do with full rigging - unless someone is roping. The weight of the rider in the saddle holds the saddle down just fine, unless there is something big and heavy pulling it forward. My 160 lbs in the seat will create more downward push than any rear cinch will. It even loosens the front cinch. It wouldn't be enough if I roped a steer. But if I ever managed to rope a steer, I'd probably die from shock.

I've got 7/8ths rigging on my saddle, so pretty close. Admittedly, he has big shoulders, but we drop down some good slopes entering washes and the saddle doesn't wiggle going down. Nor going up out of a wash.








​ 
Admittedly, my horses have great backs for holding a saddle on. My daughter once was cantering Trooper up a path after the cinch had come loose. It was hanging about 6-8 inches below Trooper's chest, banging against his front legs. Trooper being Trooper, he ignored the banging and cantered on. I had to tell her to stop and tighten the cinch. Good shoulders, A-frame back, big withers...Trooper (and Bandit) were designed to hold a saddle stable! And therefor, it may be that my opinion is worthless when applied to the rounder, mutton-withered horses. I've never owned one and rarely ridden one. A back cinch might be a player then.

Her saddle is an old Circle Y rigged full forward, with no rear cinch. This was from a few years back, when I still had Mia and was still riding an Australian saddle. Full rigging, angled forward, she probably weighed around 100 lbs at the time, cantering:










The one that baffles me is the idea that I need to use a leather billet or latigo because "leather stretches" and will allow the horse to breath. My leather belt is much thinner than my off-billet, but it sure doesn't expand with my belly when I sit down...:icon_rolleyes:​


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## tinyliny

I've never heard anyone say a leather latigo is required. 
plenty of folks use a nylon one, as long you keep an eye on possible fraying.

I just like the feel of leather. the smell. the sound. there's not actual sense to it except the sense of smell and touch and hearing.


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## Hondo

I recently began using a mohair roping cinch in the back. Same as I use in the front. There were some very steep downhill switchbacks that I had to dismount and lead Hondo down or else the saddle would go way forward. And it helped a lot. But now that I found the gullet was way too narrow and am using a better fit tree, and the weather's been hot, I've not been back to those areas, but I will in September. I'll see how it goes back with the single 7/8 - 3/4 cinch.

I recently read about the 3 point cinch which looks interesting. Since I've added attachments for a rear cinch, if I go back to a single I may try the 3 point setup. It seems like a good concept but it doesn't seem that popular, or at least I haven't seen any.

Back to bed........


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## Hondo

I'll add that I did watch the back of the saddles sort of flop back and forth on the saddles of two people I did several small roundups with.

When I mentioned it I was told they all do that. I was new so I took it as true. I have no idea of the saddle fit but did suspect their saddles were placed too far forward. I didn't mention that but the suggestion was made a couple of times that mine was too far back. I had studied saddle placement by that time and knew mine was properly placed. So the action may have been caused by the shoulders pushing the bars back and forth making the back of the saddle flop.

They ran leather cinches in the rear but very loose.


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## gottatrot

I agree there are some horses that have very good backs for keeping saddles on. I once rode a high-withered horse and forgot to attach the off-side of the cinch on the Western saddle...it was just looped through the ring. I didn't realize this until we'd ridden two miles and then trotted around a tight corner, at which point the saddle started to slip over so quickly that I tried to leap off the horse. What happened was I landed on the ground standing with the saddle between my legs! My friend turned around hearing the sound and was startled to see me saddled up and riding on the ground next to the horse.

I always say that in worst case situations you give up on riding the horse and settle for riding the saddle. 

I've also never heard that a leather latigo would allow a horse to breathe. My experience has been contrary to that advice; I've found that leather "sticks" better and holds the cinch while you are tying the cinch knot (with no appropriately placed holes on the latigo to buckle into). Wrap it two times through the ring and it's going nowhere. Versus a nylon latigo tends to slip looser while you are getting the knot tied. 



> (Hondo)
> I'll add that I did watch the back of the saddles sort of flop back and forth on the saddles of two people I did several small roundups with.
> 
> When I mentioned it I was told they all do that. I was new so I took it as true. I have no idea of the saddle fit but did suspect their saddles were placed too far forward. I didn't mention that but the suggestion was made a couple of times that mine was too far back. I had studied saddle placement by that time and knew mine was properly placed. So the action may have been caused by the shoulders pushing the bars back and forth making the back of the saddle flop.
> 
> They ran leather cinches in the rear but very loose.


I guess I should say that if I ever were to ride in saddles fitted or placed that poorly, I'd be sure to use the back cinch and tighten it up appropriately.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I have always ridden with rear cinch and I keep it fairly loose (insert two fingers width). I also ride with relatively loose front cinch. Tight enough to mount from the ground without the saddle moving around, but loose enough to still put a finger comfortably underneath. My personal horse has decent withers so the saddle stays generally put. 

When I have found the rear cinch to be useful: The first is in a bucking fit which doesn't happen all that often. The second is in the event the saddle slides to the side past the point of no return.

IME, much more common is the sliding saddle. On two occasions in the past three years or so I have seen a rider with a cinch that was not tight enough and a horse with flat withers, have their saddle start moving around the side and eventually underneath the horse. Both times it happened to be with children. Once in an arena and once on the trails. 

In one case, my daughter forgot to check her cinch on her flat backed horse without withers. 

We started trotting and all I heard behind me was a rabbit squeal "Eeeek" and then a thump. The then 4 yo horse stopped with my daughter under his belly along with the saddle and stood there looking at her. 

The second one was at a clinic, the horse started cantering, added a few small bucks in and the seat started sliding, the girl held on as it slid to the side of the horse, before her head and shoulder hit the fencing and she fell off. The saddle then slid underneath the horse and the horse continued to buck for quite some time afterwards. The girl was thankfully okay though she rang her bell pretty good. 

In both cases the rear cinch held the back of the saddle in place, instead of having it drag on the ground, have the horse step/trip on it, get a foot caught etc. 

I disagree that it is simply a fashion statement. Some equipment is there for the safety of the rider. Some is there for the safety of the horse.


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## bsms

This was how the CA/Martin saddle fit Mia:








​ 
I padded it up some, and she actually rode fine in it...until this day:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

After fighting my own denial, I got my current saddle which fit her like this:








​ 







​ 
I mentioned my horses tend to have slab sides. When the saddle slipped on Mia, it ended up dead solid on her side. In all the running around, bucking, kicking, squealing, falling on her side, etc that happened after I bailed, the saddle didn't move an inch. A slab side is one of the things I appreciate about Bandit:








​ 







​ 
An A-frame horse with big withers and flat sides can hold a saddle very well, unless the rider insists on using a saddle that fits HIM but not his horse!

fftopic:​ 
Bandit kind of resembles a famous Arizona Arabian from the 1800s:








​ 
That horse was ridden by a 6'5" sheriff (look at the stirrup position!) and was reputed to be one of the fastest horses for cross country riding in Arizona. He demonstrated his ability when a bad guy stole him to make his get away.

However, it didn't end up well:

_On May 9, 1897, Parker and two other inmates overpowered a guard and broke out of their cell. The noise of the breakout caused an assistant district attorney, Erasmus Lee Norris, to come down the stairs to find out the cause of the commotion. At this point, Parker shot and killed Norris then fled from the jailhouse on Sheriff Ruffner's horse, "Sure Shot."_

_Parker was captured two weeks later on May 23rd hiding in the Grand Canyon area by a posse led by Sheriff Ruffner. He was brought back to Prescott where he was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for the murder of Erasmus Lee Norris._

_On the eve of his execution, Parker made a final request of Sheriff Ruffner. He requested the pleasure of an evening with a local prostitute named "Flossie" in his jail cell....the sheriff granted him his request._

_The following day, June 3, 1898, James Fleming Parker was led from his cell to the gallows erected on the grounds of the Yavapai County Courthouse. He asked the jailer to tell the other prisoners that he "died game and like a man."

ipernity: The Hanging of James Fleming Parker - by $ugar Dap Willie










_​


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## tinyliny

can you imagine how well that would go over nowadays: someone on death row requesting a ***** for the their final 'supper'.


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> I agree there are some horses that have very good backs for keeping saddles on. I once rode a high-withered horse and forgot to attach the off-side of the cinch on the Western saddle...it was just looped through the ring. I didn't realize this until we'd ridden two miles and then trotted around a tight corner, at which point the saddle started to slip over so quickly that I tried to leap off the horse. * What happened was I landed on the ground standing with the saddle between my legs! My friend turned around hearing the sound and was startled to see me saddled up and riding on the ground next to the horse.*
> 
> I always say that in worst case situations you give up on riding the horse and settle for riding the saddle.
> 
> I've also never heard that a leather latigo would allow a horse to breathe. My experience has been contrary to that advice; I've found that leather "sticks" better and holds the cinch while you are tying the cinch knot (with no appropriately placed holes on the latigo to buckle into). Wrap it two times through the ring and it's going nowhere. Versus a nylon latigo tends to slip looser while you are getting the knot tied.
> 
> 
> I guess I should say that if I ever were to ride in saddles fitted or placed that poorly, I'd be sure to use the back cinch and tighten it up appropriately.



I'd have liked to see that!


I don't like nylon latigos for that; for the difficulty in getting them to hold a knot.

and, there's little point in using a rear cinch if you don't have it tight enough. it should be in contact with the belly, not drooping.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My next saddle will be rigged like this and won’t need a flank strap. Since I don’t rope, it doesn’t matter that is untraditional. It should serve the two purposes I use it for, bucking and keeping the saddle out of the horse’s feet in the event of a slide.










BTW, note there is no knot tied in the latigo, this is how I was taught to do the cinch to minimize the amount of leather under your legs. No hole in the right spot? That's what is so good about leather. You pull out the hole punch and add one on the spot.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My next saddle will be rigged like this and won’t need a flank strap. Since I don’t rope, it doesn’t matter that is untraditional. It should serve the two purposes I use it for, bucking and keeping the saddle out of the horse’s feet in the event of a slide.


That is what I read about called a 3 point cinch and is what I'll probably wind up with myself.

I always have to tighten to ground mount. I seldom do as there is usually a log or large rock nearby. I like to keep it no tighter than absolutely necessary.

A video of gottatrot's dismount would have gone viral for certain.

I was just thinking back about the flopping saddle on the one person's horse. That horse came up with a gall in her right shoulder and had to be rested for a month or two. White hairs grew in. That was before I had read stuff but as I recall those white hairs were in a location on her shoulder that a saddle should never touch. I'll have to check her the next time I'm close enough.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> with regard to the whole shoulder blade moving backward thing. . I remember seeing a video where the fellow was talking about how when the shoulder blade goes back is at the place in the stride when that leg is unweighted, as the hrose is reaching forward, so it can usually slide under the bar a bit, and it will often also slide forward on the ribcage a bit, o not be as tight as one might think. when the horse is weighting a particular front leg, the shoulder blade is well forward of the front edge of the tree.


While this must be true as I've read it in several places also, I wonder how true it would be for a horse negotiating a narrow, steep, twisting downhill?

The leg seems to be pretty loaded while stretched forward which could cause a little more action under the front of the bars. That may be the problem the guy in the pack saddle video was referring to which caused the back of the pack saddle to flop left/right.

A thought to ponder.


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## tinyliny

polite pondering is what I love about Horseforum!


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## Hondo

And while pondering and trying to stay cool under my spreading Arizona Black Walnut Tree, this thought appeared.

We've talked about the how the horse's spine is relatively inflexible between certain points, but what about the muscle? My bicep muscle can change heights quite a bit. So I'm wondering now how much a working horse's back muscles fluctuate?


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## tinyliny

remember that when a muscle contracts, it causes teh opposing muscles to relax. so, if you contract your biceps, the triceps must relax in order for the arm to contract into that classic body builders' "showing off my biceps" position.

for a horse to "raise" his back, he must actually contract his abdominal muscles, and RELAX his back muscles. if he contracts the muscles that run alllong the back of the spine (used in raising the head, such as from a grazing position), then the back will actually drop. 

so, to build a good topline, a focus on developing the abdominal and pelvic musscles is paramount.


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## bsms

The back muscles work to rotate vertebrae in the spine. IIRC, it is part of how the horse transmits the thrust from the hind legs forward to the front of the horse. They do not work to lift the back, but to stiffen it so the force of the hindlegs is sent forward through the body...although not in any "circle of energy" way.

gottatrot posted a thread that got pretty...well, NOT polite pondering...on the motion of the back:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/

There is some good reading here:

Equine Back Research

Training Philosophy

BTW - do NOT buy his book! I did, and it was grossly overpriced! But his website has a lot of good info, free.

This is another bit of good reading:

Back movement and muscle contractions


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## gottatrot

I like that three point rigging. It seems very practical, even for the best fitting saddle it can't hurt to stabilize everything. The closest I've seen on an English saddle is the ones with three or four billets where you can attach the girth to a front and back billet, which creates a similar setup.

That thread/discussion on horse back movement was educational and thought-provoking for me. Very interesting.

I'm sitting here with an ice pack on my shin...we had Earl go out with Nala and Halla today. He and his teenage owner had spent several weeks on a horse ranch in Central Oregon recently so he was in good shape and went 7 miles with us. I tried my best to keep Halla somewhat close to him but as we cantered along Nala was probably going around 25-30 mph, Halla was going 15-20 and Earl probably about 10. We circled back to encourage him. Going through our wooded, narrow trail I made the mistake of talking to Earl's rider instead of paying at least 95% attention to my horse, which she requires. So she smashed my leg into a tree rather hard, and it's a bit bruised and swollen. 
Earl's rider seemed very happy at the end of our ride, and said that this was the fastest she'd ever gone on a horse before. :wink:

I just finished reading a book recommended by Bondre called "_The Horse's Mind_" by _Lucy Rees_. It was a good book and I learned some things. 

One thing I found interesting was that the author thought training by dominating a horse was not the best method, that it prevents higher forms of learning, and explained how horses do not use dominance in their natural habitat on an everyday basis. Even stallions are not dominant by nature, but are as good at submitting to more assertive behavior from other horses whether they are mares or rival stallions. It is in their nature to drive and gather up other horses, similar to herding breed dogs. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

It is when we put horses into situations where they have to fight over resources such as a small pile of hay, that we see the more assertive horses expressing their personalities. According to the author, the most important relationships with horses are not pecking order and hierarchy battles but rather family ties and close friendships with other horses. 

So being friends with our horses would seem to be a much deeper and longer lasting thing than being dominant over them, which behavior would only be seen during brief battles over scarce resources and survival. 


> It is sad that many people do not realize how important praise can be to a horse; instead of encouraging the horse when he has done something desirable, they merely punish what is undesirable so that he is driven by fear. Such a horse may become as obedient as a robot, but he is not joyful nor, as Xenophon understood, beautiful. Moreover he may not be safe under circumstances that frighten him more than his rider's punishment does. The faith that occasionally leads horses to perform truly courageous acts only exists in ones that have been praised, as do the proud and willing attitudes that are such a pleasure to see.


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## Hondo

*"training by dominating a horse was not the best method, that it prevents higher forms of learning"*

This I very very much agree with and believe, for horses, dogs, people, and most other animals. I have another book on my purchase list.

Wow, what an old thread you posted bsms! I am such a newbie when it comes to horse movement.

I am beginning to think the video I posted on the packsaddle with the up/down movement at the front of the bars may not be the best way to correct the problem. Why not just move the saddle back via the cinches or britchin in order to prevent the scapula or associated muscles from impacting the tree?

I was surprised to learn that a horse "could" have as much as 2.5 inches of vertical back movement. This continues to leave me thinking a flex tree with a little give just might not be all bad and increases my positive attitude towards the SupraCor pad due to it's flexibility and resilience.

So much to do, so much to learn, so little time. There's a good reason I have not owned a TV for several years.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I’ll have to get that book, it sounds interesting.

I have always disagreed with the “dominance” theory in training, at least to the extent that it is too often employed and misapplied. 

There is a study out there that you might find of interest in which, mice who were found to have a negative experience linked to a smell, in this study, cherry blossoms, not only develop an aversion to the smell of cherry blossoms themselves, but also pass it down to future generations.

Parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural structure in subsequent generations : Nature Neuroscience : Nature Research

What is interesting is that this was not simply a learned behavior taught from parent to child like we tend to often assume, but actual changes occurred at the cellular level within the sperm of the parent and then was passed on to the offspring as a DNA memory.

'Memories' pass between generations - BBC News 

This raises a very interesting question regarding training methods and the creation of spooky horses. The question has always been is it nature or is it nurture?

The concept of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance raises many issues especially for those who breed horses, of the possibility that what is done to one generation, can be passed down and genetically “remembered” by the next. If valid, it raises many more questions than it answers regarding how we train horses.

(much longer article)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...enerational_Epigenetic_Inheritance_in_Animals


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...I just finished reading a book recommended by Bondre called "_The Horse's Mind_" by _Lucy Rees_. It was a good book and I learned some things.
> 
> One thing I found interesting was that the author thought training by dominating a horse was not the best method, that it prevents higher forms of learning, and explained how horses do not use dominance in their natural habitat on an everyday basis. Even stallions are not dominant by nature, but are as good at submitting to more assertive behavior from other horses whether they are mares or rival stallions...
> 
> ...It is when we put horses into situations where they have to fight over resources such as a small pile of hay, that we see the more assertive horses expressing their personalities. According to the author, the most important relationships with horses are not pecking order and hierarchy battles but rather family ties and close friendships with other horses...


The first time I saw this was about 3-4 months after we got Mia. We already owned a small Arabian mare named Lilly, and Lilly and Mia had been corral mates for two years with a previous owner. Then they were donated to a charity, someone bought Mia and we bought Lilly. A few months later, Mia was returned, underweight and battered from constant fighting with the two large geldings she had been put in with, but would not submit to. I liked her and bought her, and began a 7 year journey with her.

Anyways, to make a short story longer...Mia became upset with a 2 year old QH filly we owned at the time. She was basically round penning the filly - for two hours. Then sensible little Lilly decided she had seen enough. She stepped in between the two of them, and stared at Mia. Mia was #1 in the pecking order and a very dominant mare. The QH filly was actually #2. Lilly was #3. Lilly just stood there, making it clear Mia would need to go over the top of her to get to the QH filly. After about 20 seconds, Mia snorted and back away. She then studiously ignored the other two horses.

This did NOT result in Mia becoming submissive, nor did Lilly move up the pecking order. But Mia respected Lilly, realized Lilly was right, and backed down. According to a lot of folks who write about horses, that meant Mia "lost". I have no idea how many times I've heard that I should never 'lose' to my horse. But Mia didn't lose anything. She was still number 1, and she was so in part because she WOULD back down when in the wrong. There is a difference between a bully horse and a horse who deserves respect - and Mia earned the respect of the other horses.

Since then, I've watched her back down a bunch of times. She was tough, but she was always FAIR.

Now, Bandit is #3 of 3. But he is the smartest of the 3, and the other two know it. He may be the last to eat, but he is the one the other two go to when worried. On the trail, he takes the lead and the others cue off of him (and me). He is the most cautious of the three, but once he makes a decision, he is the boldest of the three.

I was told on another forum a little while back that horse society is based on antagonism and trying to raise your status over the others, and that if I didn't know that, it proved I didn't know much about horses. I think the writer genuinely had a lot of experience...but maybe not with horses in a long-term, get-along social structure. But how sad is it that some people can spend a life around horses and not see how fairness, cooperation and teamwork play into their nature!

I know I've shared this old quote before, but the more I'm around horses, the more I wish instructors made new students memorize this! The more I apply it to my horses, the better they work with me:

"_..There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement* ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this *without overtaxing its powers*, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; *they like amusement, variety, and society* : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way..._" - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (*1868*), boldface is my emphasis. 

Tom Roberts said a person training a horse could hardly ever go wrong if they remembered:

1 - This will profit you. This will profit you not.

2 - Quiet Persistence.

I would add #3 - We can do this together!

My wife has been riding regularly with me, and she has encouraged me to start riding Bandit off the trails. The first few times I asked Bandit to enter or exit a wash where there was no trail, he was pretty nervous. So I kept things simple, and we are working our way up in difficulty. We still are not tackling the really hard spots, and I'm not certain my wife's 13.0 hand mustang would handle those with my wife's inexperienced rump anyways.

But something I'm coming to love about Bandit is when I point him at an exit/entry, and ask him to stop. Then I'll tell him I think we can make it. He'll look. Maybe 2 seconds later, or maybe 30 seconds later, his ears will click forward, his back shift, and then I know he is ready for us to make our move. Then we go together. Afterward, he seems to feel good about himself - and about "us".

And I am convinced that "together" is nearly irresistible to a horse - be it jumping, dressage, western pleasure, roping, or just picking our way between the cactus and trying to find a place to drop down into a wash. "We can do this together!" motivates a horse in a way "release of pressure" cannot match.

"_*it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement...*__*they like amusement, variety, and society"*_​


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## tinyliny

I hope Gottatrot is not feeling that her journal is being coopted.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> And I am convinced that "together" is nearly irresistible to a horse - be it jumping, dressage, western pleasure, roping, or just picking our way between the cactus and trying to find a place to drop down into a wash. "We can do this together!" motivates a horse in a way "release of pressure" cannot match.





> (*Tinyliny*) I hope Gottatrot is not feeling that her journal is being coopted.


While I learn a lot from reading, I haven't learned a whole lot from talking to myself. I'm more of a "together" type of learner, so appreciate the conversations. 

There is a type of horse that seems like a quiet observer, but when the other horses panic, this one steps up and leads with quiet confidence. Like Bandit. 

That is me too. At work it surprises people when the apparently passive one turns out to be a strong leader and they discover that some of the more obviously assertive types with their blustering do not provide something to follow with confidence when things go south. 

I believe this is why Halla is friends with me, and she can be a tricky horse to be friends with. She is a blusterer, strongly assertive, but does extremely well when we do things together rather than head-to-head. 

A typical conversation between us, both verbal and non-verbal:
"I am going to look at this scab, and put medicine on it."
"I could bite you if I wanted, see my teeth."
"OK, well I'm not going to harm you. If your leg comes off with the scab, feel free to bite my arm off."
"Fine, I'll stand still and watch but with that reservation."

Is that type of conversation acceptable with a horse? With Halla, I am not sure there is any other way. If you put a halter on, tied her up and forced her to stand while you treated her, the chances of you getting bitten or kicked would go up exponentially. If you leave her loose, explain to her with voice and body language that you mean no harm, and leave her the right to defend herself should her trust prove unfounded, you will come to no harm.

Trust with horses goes both ways. Why should they trust us if we don't trust them?


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> I'm sitting here with an ice pack on my shin...we had Earl go out with Nala and Halla today.....
> Earl's rider seemed very happy at the end of our ride, and said that this was the fastest she'd ever gone on a horse before. :wink:


Sorry to hear about your leg, but at least you mashed it in a good cause and Earl's rider had a good ride :wink:



gottatrot said:


> I just finished reading a book recommended by Bondre called "_The Horse's Mind_" by _Lucy Rees_. It was a good book and I learned some things.
> 
> One thing I found interesting was that the author thought training by dominating a horse was not the best method, that it prevents higher forms of learning.
> 
> According to the author, the most important relationships with horses are not pecking order and hierarchy battles but rather family ties and close friendships with other horses.
> 
> So being friends with our horses would seem to be a much deeper and longer lasting thing than being dominant over them, which behavior would only be seen during brief battles over scarce resources and survival.


I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm sure the same idea about dominance hindering true learning and development is equally true in human - or other interspecific - relationships. A person will never work their best for a boss that tries to dominate; they either fall into line and play submissive, or rebel against the tyranny. But they won't bother to think for themselves, improvise or work outside the box in any way. Nor will they try and make friends with such an individual. 

I know anthropomorphism is a big no-no for animal behaviourists, but it seems that sometimes in an effort to not interpret our horse's actions in terms of human emotions we go too far in the opposite direction. Some folks that harp on about horses being prey animals and all that business seem to treat them as if they are devoid of intelligence and social impulses. If we related to our horses more in terms of human relationships than human-to-animal then I think we might even understand them more, as they, too, are social animals and in some ways they are surprisingly similar to us. 

There's so much in that book that I periodically pick it up and re-read a few pages; today I chanced upon a section on attitudes. 

"When a horse 'does what he is told' we can look at it in different ways: we can say the horse submits to our will, that he is obedient to our commands, or that he responds to our signals. Each of these attitudes affects the way we go about riding or training."

The author than further explores these three variants. She discredits the use of submission, based on a dominance hierarchy, as she says this isn't the way horses think. Obedience she says is better but too one-sided, a stream of commands more appropriate for a motorcycle than a living creature. Responsiveness wins hands down, as she says horses are very good at reading signals and respond very well to the opportunity of communication in such a way. They offer more of themselves and participate actively and with more enthusiasm. 

I think we can all relate to this philosophy and all have our own examples of how our horses respond to dominance v. communication. I have tried the dominance business on occasions and haven't had any positive results. I guess I'm not dominant enough to pull it off! Whereas with communication, listening and suggesting, we are doing very nicely thanks. Maybe things take longer, but the advances we make are more solid because they are bilateral.


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## Hondo

I attended all four years of high school. I absolutely rebelled against being lorded over. Did not graduate. Wound up spending most of my days in the library.

My first semester at college where they cared not at that time whether you passed, failed, came to class, or stayed home, where I could pursue my interests unhindered, I set the curve on half the semester courses I was taking. Although I was the only one in my small class to not graduate from H.S., I was numbered among only a few that achieved a BS degree from college while having the most fun in my life at the time, and not from partying, just from learning.

I've been nodding in agreement with the post on training horses. I will read that book.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Bondre said:


> The author than further explores these three variants. She discredits the use of submission, based on a dominance hierarchy, as she says this isn't the way horses think. Obedience she says is better but too one-sided, a stream of commands more appropriate for a motorcycle than a living creature. Responsiveness wins hands down, as she says horses are very good at reading signals and respond very well to the opportunity of communication in such a way. They offer more of themselves and participate actively and with more enthusiasm.
> 
> I think we can all relate to this philosophy and all have our own examples of how our horses respond to dominance v. communication. I have tried the dominance business on occasions and haven't had any positive results. I guess I'm not dominant enough to pull it off! Whereas with communication, listening and suggesting, we are doing very nicely thanks. Maybe things take longer, but the advances we make are more solid because they are bilateral.


To some extent I think submission is legitimate response, but agree its motivation has little to do with dominance and everything to do with seeking cooperation. 

When I ask my husband to do something and he does, he is technically submitting to my will, my request without issue, but it is a choice motivated by what? Is he doing it because I am dominant and he is submissive or are there other possible motivations?

1)	He just doesn’t want to waste the energy and create conflict. 
2)	Arguing weakens the bond between us
3)	He knows I would appreciate it and wants to do something nice for me
4)	It’s part of being in a family that each person has to do their part to make it work. If we don’t all swim, we sink. 

I think with horses it is mostly #1 and #4 and are instinctually based. 
The constructs of dominance and submission are no less "anthropomorphistic" than either of those two. Instinct drives many motivations including in the human species' emotions. 

Here is my experience with the holes in dominance theory of herd order.

Oliver, our herd leader is unusual based on what is commonly told to us regarding how herd order is established and maintained. He calls the shots in every herd I have had him in. He establishes his leadership without violence (the most I have ever seen from him is an ear flick) in a matter of a minute or less. Doesn’t matter if that in a herd of mostly mares or a mix of geldings and mares. 

My trainer had a word for how he accomplishes this, but I can’t remember what he called it (his herd of 13 was one of the ones that Oliver took over in about 30 seconds). My trainer had been talking with an online professional trainer's only group he is a part of regarding Ollie and someone had explained the term to him. Essentially the other horses won’t challenge him because of who he is. His presence is so strong and his leadership ability so obvious, he is the best leader, without question and without second thought. He walks in and it’s done. 

The word I used was charisma, but my trainer said it was more than that. They know he is smart, wise, fair, healthy, has good judgement, will lead but not micromanage or bully. In horse terms he is the whole package deal. He said horses are just that good at reading body language; they can tell all of those things with just a glance. It is only when there is a question about the quality of the leader that a confrontation becomes necessary. In Oliver's case, no one to date, has expressed any doubts.

Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with “creating” Oliver, he is who he is and I had nothing to do with it. It does however put forth a bit of a conundrum in riding and training a horse like that, especially when he is only the second horse you have ever trained. How do you get a leader who is that strong to follow you (a flawed and puny human) especially when you are asking him to do something he doesn't want to do?

Physical confrontation and force does not work, as he will stand his ground and then fight you with everything he has when you up the ante beyond what he sees as fair (see my trainer’s quote in my signature line). The answer is to become a wiser, more fair, smarter, half of a partnership and earn rather than demand respect!


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## Bondre

Oliver exudes presence in even just a photo, so I can that in flesh and blood he is quite outstanding. Interesting what you say about his unquestioned leadership amongst his own species - and that horses are so observant that they can pick up on his innate leadership qualities within seconds of meeting him. Since horses are capable of such rapid and accurate evaluation of another individual, it begs the question of whether they are equally good at evaluating us. And if so, then the idea of trying to bluff your way through if you're scared and hope your horse won't realise seems to be doomed to failure.

I love your analysis of the submissive response! For sure it can be a valid response as long as it's not always the same individual showing submission. So that means that if we want our horses to submit at times, we should submit to them at others.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

He’s a horse’s horse. 

If there was one mantra that Oliver holds to it is “Why”.

He likes to jump…..out on the trails where there is a reason to do it, in the arena he sees that it is easily walked around, stepped over or simply bulled through. “Why?”

Let’s cross this creek here…..why?

I could get my knickers in a knot at his challenge to my authority and say “because I said so” or I could say well, what would you suggest? I chose the latter with him (in part because the other was tried first and was not working out well). The only reason I would have to be concerned about his challenge to my judgement leading to disrespect is if my judgement is off. It isn't and I know it, so there is no need to get heavy handed. 

In the beginning when we were still establishing trust and respect for my judgment over his, the creek crossing may have gone like this…..

Me: “Cross here”
O: “Why?”
Me: “Because it is the best place.”
O: “What about over here? No. How about here? No. I guess you are right we’ll cross here.”

I get that most people don’t have the time to dink around with this kind of stuff, they got a job/goal and they need to do it. “Because I say so” has nothing to do with establishing respect but more with saving time and time is money.

He doesn’t question much anymore because he had the opportunity to experience that I have good judgement and it is indeed most often superior to his. On the occasions when he does, if I insist, he defers to me. He came to that conclusion via a different route than “because I said so”. Both lead to the same place, but are very different journeys to the destination. 

On the occasions where he has better judgement or skill, such as where to go up a rocky hill, I tell him such and let him exercise it. That in and of itself shows leadership to a horse like Oliver; know and understand the capabilities of your team, acknowledge when it is superior to your own and let them do what they do best. I have seen him lead the herd this way, so I know in his mind, it is something he recognizes and values in a leader.

He does not respect a horse who controls through physical force, micromanagement or constant threats, but they sure respect him! So from what I have observed, the strongest leader in the horse world is the one who speaks volumes in their presence because they are the real deal, inside and out. There is no faking it because they know.

Training this type of horse makes you stop and be very honest with yourself. Acknowledge your strengths and weaknesses, your personality flaws and the areas you are rock solid and can hold your ground. As many people who have tried to train this horse have found out, you have to know yourself, because he sees right through you.


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## knightrider

I love this discussion. One of our horses is a paradox. Tico is our oldest and one of our smallest in our herd of 4. When I went to look at him to consider buying him, he was very thin (and ugly). The owner said that the other horses in the herd bully him and don't let him get the hay, even when it is in many piles. Before I bought Tico, I asked the owner to throw out piles of hay so that I could see this behavior. I didn't want to buy a skinny horse when all her other horses were in fine flesh, only to discover he had something wrong with him.

Sure enough, the other horses chased Tico away, and he got no hay. So I bought him.

As soon as he arrived at our place, he immediately established dominance over our much larger (but very compliant) gelding and our dominant mare. He wasn't going to take any stuff off of anyone (ever again). over the years at my place, horses have died . . . and new ones have taken their places, but Tico is the king boss. He doesn't kick, bite, or chase the other horses. As Reining said, Tico only flicks an ear, and the others fall in line.

I am very interested in animal communication, and Tico is the only horse that I feel I get communications from. For what it's worth, Tico tells me that he was dominated once, and it's never gonna happen again, thank you ma'am.

Tico doesn't have presence or charisma. He's little, old, and kind of funny looking. He comes across as sour and grumpy. On the other hand, when you ride him, you'll get a fun lively delightful ride. There's a reason why we call him The World's Greatest Pony.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

That's interesting.

When I bought Oliver, he was in with a Jack Donkey and had bites all over his neck and was also starved. He has a piece on his crest where the muscle was taken out at some point and if you pinch your fingers on either side, you can feel there is no muscle left there....maybe there is something to be said that the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fires!


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...In the beginning when we were still establishing trust and respect for my judgment over his, the creek crossing may have gone like this…..
> 
> Me: “Cross here”
> O: “Why?”
> Me: “Because it is the best place.”
> O: “What about over here? No. How about here? No. I guess you are right we’ll cross here.”
> 
> I get that most people don’t have the time to dink around with this kind of stuff, they got a job/goal and they need to do it. “Because I say so” has nothing to do with establishing respect but more with saving time and time is money.
> 
> He doesn’t question much anymore because he had the opportunity to experience that I have good judgement and it is indeed most often superior to his....
> 
> On the occasions where he has better judgement or skill, such as where to go up a rocky hill, I tell him such and let him exercise it. That in and of itself shows leadership to a horse like Oliver; know and understand the capabilities of your team, acknowledge when it is superior to your own and let them do what they do best...


Mutually acceptable compromise, and teaching the horse trust by showing you are trust-worthy - and that you will return the trust & respect his abilities. I've been very happy with the results I've seen with Bandit. It would have been interesting to know if it would have worked with Mia. I was heading in that direction, but it didn't occur to me to try it that fully during my 7 years with her. Why? In part, I think, because so many trainers and supposedly expert people teach getting respect in a round pen, or 'making the wrong thing difficult' (punishment that we pretend is not punishment), or simply teaching that horses are too stupid to reason things out - that a horse is INCAPABLE of learning trust because they only understand dominance. I was told I just needed to be confident, which begged the question of what to do if I was NOT confident!

Just this week, on a forum I was lurking on, I read that horses are too stupid and too fear-reactive to learn anything, so all horses need to be...well...dominated by a "strong leader" whose authority is unquestionable! Except that some horses DO question one's authority, and what then?

That is why it resonated with me when my farrier discussed training a mule, and how many very experienced riders couldn't get a mule to do squat - because they only knew a certain type of horse. And then I read this:



bsms said:


> ..."Horses benefit from repetition when it comes to training, but Koenig said that just doesn’t hold true for mules.
> 
> “*A mule isn’t going to go around in circles around an arena for no good reason*,” she said.
> 
> Koenig also noted the difference between horse and mule shows.
> 
> “At a horse show, if a horse pulls back at the trailer, everybody runs and says the horse is terrible for pulling back,” said Koenig. “Go to a mule show, and if some guy is riding past you on an obviously partially out of control mule, everyone just says:*"There goes Earl!”*
> 
> Added Koenig, “You can’t have an ego with your mules.”
> 
> Unraveling the mystery of the mule | Hayley Thomas
> 
> ...


The farrier said if I wanted a horse to order, then getting an Arabian/Mustang mix was a mistake. And it is a mistake with some Quarter Horses too. Horses with leadership qualities are different. Independent thinkers are different. Some people really value and WANT a horse who will do this:








​
But I want and value a horse who, in that situation, would slam on the brakes and say, "_Aw HELLLLLL no! We're going AROUND..._"

Bandit is still learning about tricky footing. So if he isn't comfortable with trying to climb out a spot, I honor his decision. I know him well enough to trust his honesty. If he felt he COULD make it, he would try - because he loves being part of a team, and he loves knowing I count on him and trust his strength.

Trooper is a very different horse. He will accept almost anything if it is asked of him quietly. He panics if you pressure him, but he really is "just a little trooper" - someone who quietly accepts orders. I suspect that is part of why Bandit has no confidence in Trooper's judgment. Trooper going past something scary is meaningless to him. Could be Trooper just got lucky, you know! He is more likely to accept something coming from me (now, after a year). And if I let him pause, and give him a chance to think about it, while telling him I think we can do it...my belief plus my confidence in HIS judgment. Teamwork. Together.

And I am very grateful for people like gottatrot and Bondre and Reiningcatsanddogs and knightrider and Hondo and tinyliny and others, on this thread and on HF, who actually practice respect for the horse. I often feel lonely. I have countless books on riding and horses, and 95% of them treat the horse like a machine!

I don't know how to reconcile the horses I see in my corral, and darn near every horse I've met, with what other people tell me about horses. I don't live in a world of unicorn farts, where all the rider needs to do is care and the horse magically follows, but neither do I see the antagonistic animal constantly trying to raise himself above me in the pecking order! Horses like Halla and Mia and Oliver and others are not every horse, but every horse I've met to date responds better to a rider who respects them and treats them as a being with feelings.

Most riding instruction seems to focus on how to ride a horse's body. I want to know how to ride a horse's mind. Because there are some horses (Halla?) whose body cannot be ridden unless you learn to ride their mind first...:wink:


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## knightrider

Like like like like!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think a lot more people love on their horses than will admit to it because so many people take that and run with it to the extremes into meaning love solves all issues. 

I had been taking from my trainer for about a year and he came off as a tough, no-nonsense, play by the book kind of trainer. He is a cattleman (hat, spurs, six shooter etc), so I assumed that was how he really was. Then we got Caspian, then Oliver and asked him to teach me to train them and our relationship changed.

One day I caught him brushing his oldest horse ( now 38!) down and having a conversation with him. I said “Hey Ed!”. He turned kind of red in the face and then gruffly told me “Any cowboy that doesn’t love on their horses a little bit once in a while is a darn fool and a liar!” 

Once I got past that rough exterior and he knew I wasn’t into the rainbows and lollipop crowd, and wasn't going to get myself killed, he let his guard down and our interactions became far more meaningful and informative. 

He went from being my trainer to being my friend. I think we changed each other in a lot of ways when it came to horses (he moved back to his ranch in California recently at the request of his wife who wanted to be closer to the grandkids). 

He gave me his five + decades training viewpoint with hundreds of horses and I gave him mine; we both had a lot of questions for the other one. We took a little piece of each other and made it part our own. He was like the horsey father I never had. 

We didn't always see eye to eye on things and that's okay, but we did try to step into each other's boots and see it from each other's perspective. 

I think that learning good horsemanship is as much about learning from real people as it is about learning from the horse.


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## gottatrot

These last few pages of posts are amazing; very meaningful and deep. 
There is so much to be learned from these experiences.

I also know a horse named Booker who was picked on and driven away from the feed in a large herd. He was a guide horse for tourist rides and after being ridden all day, then turned out with a big group, and also full of worms, he did not have the energy to fight for his food. 

Once my friend bought him and got him healthy, he also decided no one would ever push him around again. He'd decide when other horses got to drink water, and had his first pick of the hay piles. If a horse didn't listen, he'd charge into their side with an open mouth or kick. But he did not turn out to be a leader horse, just an assertive one interested in having his needs met first.






 
Then there was Bibi, who had a different kind of relationship with other horses. She also controlled every herd she was in from a young age, but it wasn't because other horses looked at her and saw the good qualities. She was only 13.2 hh but strutted as though she owned the whole world. Other horses immediately gave in to her will and got out of her way. They didn't follow her, but she controlled all their movements because they stayed out of her way. 

Unlike with Booker, it was super rare that any horse would even consider challenging Bibi. It was more likely that if a horse made an error in judgment and got in her way, they would stand cowering and wait for her to mete out whatever punishment she saw fit. A 16.2 hh TB accidentally walked into her stall one day and we had to rescue him because Bibi had him in the corner and was double-barreling him with both hind legs over and over. He wasn't even trying to defend himself. 

Amore was often turned out with Bibi because she had more of a tolerance than other horses for moving around at Bibi's whim throughout the day and it didn't appear to stress her out. Bibi seemed to view Amore with disdain, a horse that passive was somewhat beneath her notice. 






 
But I did know one horse like Oliver. Cheyenne walked into a field and all the other horses recognized immediately that she was the leader horse. She never had to do anything obvious to get the other horses' respect, other than exist. No horses ever passed Cheyenne on rides. She didn't look so imposing, like Oliver, but moved extremely gracefully and was very fast. If she ever ran off, all the horses would be right behind her. 






 
Something that intrigues me a little is that many who are on the side of the spectrum where they'd never try to dominate a horse but instead are into only "love and peace," such as a portion of the bitless only crowd _*also*_ behave as though horses are robots. When I say this, I will qualify it with the fact that I do ride Amore in a bitless bridle most of the time, and even tried Halla in one for a few rides. So I'm not an "outsider" or critic necessarily.

But time after time I read through responses to those who want to ride bitless but find that their horse enjoys running and without the a bit in takes off over hill and dale. People continually advise that horses only wish to run due to endorphins released from pain. So the fact that a horse wants to run off is either due to a training error (the famous "holes"), or because they've been conditioned to run from the pain of the bit. They constantly say a person can stop a horse using only the seat and that any problem horse or bolter can be rehabbed so they don't need a bit, and if you can't achieve this with your horse you either are a) too afraid and the horse is feeding off you or b) not training properly.

If you installed a computer program and it missed installing a component properly, then you could reinstall it and fix the problem. Horses are not computers. When I was a teen, my dad taught me to drive. He taught me how to gear down and use engine braking when going down a hill in my stick shift. I found a better way, and just put my car in neutral and cruised down the hills in free fall. Well, my dad found out I was doing this and instructed me not to. Would it have helped if he went back and taught me how to drive a car and use engine braking again? No, he had taught me properly. I'd just found a way I preferred, and that was more fun so I continued to do it despite his instruction. 

I think horses are the same. You can teach them properly, but they may find a way they prefer, a "better way." That's why I'd never say every horse should go bitless, or can go in a snaffle, or etc.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> “Any cowboy that doesn’t love on their horses a little bit once in a while is a darn fool and a liar!”


A very big thank you to gottatrot for providing a safe space for this discussion!


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> Most riding instruction seems to focus on how to ride a horse's body. I want to know how to ride a horse's mind.


What an amazing and succinct way of resuming the art of true horsemanship. This is the sort of memorable quote that I can see being bandied around one or two hundred years hence. 



bsms said:


> “A mule isn’t going to go around in circles around an arena for no good reason,”


This explains Macarena's dislike of circles. DH has always maintained that she has donkey blood in her somewhere - if it was biologically possible I'd say her grandmother was a mule lol - something to do with the long ears. And when it comes to circles, she has a limit and keeps to it; if I try to push her she politely refuses, and if I am rude and insist, she becomes rude in her refusal. 



gottatrot said:


> People continually advise that horses only wish to run due to endorphins released from pain.


Is that true?? I meant that people believe this stuff? I would be sad to have a horse that didn't love running just for the sake of running. It's part of their essence, what makes a horse a horse. And to believe that they only do it as a biochemical response to pain..... :shock: :shock: it's like saying that we only laugh or fall in love because of our biochemistry. 

However, maybe there is a shred of truth in it. I have noticed with Flamenca that she is typically stiff and not quite comfortable until she stretches out in a canter. After the canter she is like a different horse - or a younger version of herself. All the stiffness and age- and hoof-related problems are forgotten. But if endorphins are natural stimulants and are released in a response to pain, does this mean that she is experiencing pain at the start of the ride? :-( Poor old dear, she is so game to get out and about that it's hard to tell how much discomfort or pain she might be stoically ignoring.


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## horseluvr2524

Hi guys! Checking in, its been a while. Interesting discussion! I will be back to read more.

My small input is this:
Shan is a horse who refuses to be forced into anything. You must be able to be her partner, but also her leader. If you are not both, you will have problems. She reminded me today that she won't be forced, only convinced. She balked out on the trail and ignored my leg, I used a little too much spur and found we were going backwards, not forwards! I had to one rein 'circle' to redirect her feet before we backed down a hill. On the flip side, she gave me an incredible gallop today and had quite a bit of pep in her step. I don't think her prancing and desire to run home, whinnying at the horses at the stable, was because of pain. Quite the opposite really! And that's coming from someone who rides her in a sidepull AND a snaffle at the same time double bridle style :wink:

Probably the best compliment I got from my dressage instructor was "Shan is very willing. She trusts you." I love that it is so blatantly obvious to other people, even if its not to me. That means more than all of the best rides and best training to me.


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## horseluvr2524

I've read a little more and have been LOLing :lol:

I have had such discussions with Shan before. One particular time, I wanted Shan to walk through a puddle...

Me: "Let's walk through this puddle"
Shan: "Why? We could just walk around, look at all the dry ground everywhere!"
Me: "I really want you to walk through the puddle"
Shan: "I don't know, it really doesn't look safe. I don't think its a good idea."
Me: "Pleeeaaase??!"
Shan: "OK, I'll go over the puddle, but I'm doing it MY way!" *Shan leaps over the puddle in a gigantic jump, nearly unseating me.

She seemed rather pleased with herself and I was cracking up laughing. I gave up on the puddle and we kept moving. You never know what to expect with her. Although I get frustrated with them sometimes, I think these kinds of horses can be the most fun to ride.


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## gottatrot

Since endorphins are not only released in the body from pain, but also from excitement, strenuous exercise and emotional responses, I believe horses grow to like the feeling just as some of us do. 

If a horse is always kept calm, and does not have stress or excitement, the body won't release the endorphins and the horse may be kept more easily in control. But some horses are naturally more calm, even in potentially exciting situations. 

Since endorphins are natural painkillers, a horse may barely feel the bit if having a strong endorphin release, and that may be why some horses require a stronger bit to stop them. 

People love to over simplify, we just want a simple answer for everything. Definitely some horses are thrown into a bit that is strong, they don't know how to respond to the bit or the rider has harsh hands, and that itself causes the endorphin release that numbs the horse and causes them to rush and push through the bit. Same with having a saddle that causes pain, or a health issue that prevents a horse from calming down such as painful ulcers or a broken tooth.

But also, for some horses I believe the first thing that happens is not that they feel pain and that releases the endorphins. I believe instead the emotional high of running and exercising causes the endorphin release, which numbs the horse to feeling the bit, and that is why the snaffle or bitless does not work in those high excitement situations.

As horsemen, we ought to be able to assess whether a horse is pulling and running from anger, fear or pain, or whether a horse is pulling and running from joy and excitement. I've had both, even on the same horses, and there is an obvious difference. Endorphins themselves don't override the reasoning part of a horse's brain, but fear and pain do. You can discuss things with a horse feeling high with joy, after he comes down from the top of the curve for a second. You can't discuss things with a horse that is mad with fear or pain. 

People on drugs and high on their own endorphins sometimes can't be taken down by a taser. 

Would people believe it if I said I don't use a stronger bit to control my horse, but I use a stronger bit because my horse has such a strong endorphin response to running with other horses, that I'm in reality using a "snaffle" as far as the horse feels it, when I'm actually using a curb? 

Perhaps horses respond in general to the same amount of pressure in order to listen, but for some horses their emotional response is up, and the endorphin release is high, so the pressure feels the same to them in a curb as many horses feel in a snaffle. And perhaps the horses that stop easily off your seat are similar to kids who go down a fast water slide and say, "I don't get it," and go get an ice cream cone, and the horses that stop in a curb are like the kids that keep going down the slide over and over again until the parents come to take them home. 

We call people "adrenaline junkies" and I've suspected some horses are like that, really enjoying the high of the endorphin rush provided by hard exercise, high emotions and "fun." Other horses seem to get more emotional satisfaction from eating or hanging out in a social situation.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Shan: "OK, I'll go over the puddle, but I'm doing it MY way!" *Shan leaps over the puddle in a gigantic jump, nearly unseating me.
> 
> She seemed rather pleased with herself and I was cracking up laughing. I gave up on the puddle and we kept moving. You never know what to expect with her. Although I get frustrated with them sometimes, I think these kinds of horses can be the most fun to ride.


That's what I call a good hearted horse. 
We ask them to do something that they really don't want to do, but they also really want to work with us and value "togetherness." So they figure out a way they think will solve both problems, doing what we want but in a way they are comfortable with. I think they are surprised when we sometimes are unhappy with this type of thinking.


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## horseluvr2524

This is somewhat OT.

I think that you can also change a horse from lazy to energetic, but perhaps not the reverse. It happened with Shan. She used to be extremely lazy and difficult to get moving. I worked very hard retraining her, and now she moves out with energy and loves taking a fast trot or gallop.

Perhaps she came to like the adrenaline rush/endorphins over her old way of going?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

horseluvr2524 said:


> You never know what to expect with her. Although I get frustrated with them sometimes, I think these kinds of horses can be the most fun to ride.



I agree, I love my weirdo horse, though most people will think we're nuts....:happydance:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Reading and thinking.....

Oliver gets hot at the trailhead, his adrenaline starts there, can’t wait to go.

Maybe there is a link of some sort between adrenaline and the following: what is curious is that Ollie has heaves due to allergies, when we ride out within 20 minutes his breathing becomes completely normal….

Could this be similar to the effect of giving epinephrine to a person having an anaphylactic reaction?


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> That's what I call a good hearted horse.
> We ask them to do something that they really don't want to do, but they also really want to work with us and value "togetherness." So they figure out a way they think will solve both problems, doing what we want but in a way they are comfortable with. I think they are surprised when we sometimes are unhappy with this type of thinking.


Yes, I think that too, and it's important to recognise when they are giving you try, even if it's not in the precise manner you expected. 

Similar example from Macarena last week. We met a large muddy puddle caused by a leak from the irrigation channels (hasn't rained) which occupied the whole track. There was no room for getting past without either getting her feet wet or stepping on the slick muddy ridges between the tyre tracks. Now, Macarena dislikes water but she HATES mud. She will go through clear water running over stones but muddy water and slick mud is a real no. I have a theory that will never be proved that she had a bad experience - or maybe several - being washed as a youngster. Her previous owner had a wash stand and from her reaction to buckets of water when I first got her, I imagine he would pack her into the wash stand where the footing could get quite muddy and slippery, and maybe she panicked and fell. Anyway, for whatever reason she is deeply distrusting of mud and prefers not to stand on it (just as well we don't live in a wet climate lol).

So she wasn't going to go through that puddle, but equally she knew I didn't want her to turn back, so she decided on the only possible way out that would keep my happy and keep her out of the mud. We would go round the puddle, which meant pushing through the pine forest that borders the track. This is easier said than done because the trees are dense (they were planted, not natural growth) and no-one has bothered to ever clean the dead lower branches as the trees have grown, so at ground level the forest is fairly impenetrable. You have to go picking your way to find a feasible route between the trees, backing up at times and pushing dead branches aside to get past when all else fails. 

So we did that, which to me seems more difficult and unpleasant than going through the darned puddle, but clearly Macarena had her reasons - so the best thing to do was accept her decision and praise her for trying.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Maybe there is a link of some sort between adrenaline and the following: what is curious is that Ollie has heaves due to allergies, when we ride out within 20 minutes his breathing becomes completely normal….
> 
> Could this be similar to the effect of giving epinephrine to a person having an anaphylactic reaction?


Adrenaline/epinephrine does work as a bronchodilator. So it's possible the adrenaline opens up his airway a bit. It could relax the smooth muscle and potentially stop bronchospasm.

******************************************************************

I just said to someone the other day...maybe those Pokemons are real and we just can't see them but Arabs can? Then I saw this funny:


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## Hondo

There is a retired ranch horse named Turbo here on the ranch. The ranch is an annual destination for a 2-300 rider 5-day ride event which includes some horse racing. When Turbo's owner, who is still on the ranch here, decided to ride him in the race rather than using a jockey everyone laughed as he weighed aver 250 pounds. Turbo blew them all away for two years in a row. No more racing after that as no one would bet against him.

But the owner, who continued using him for cattle work, said that ever after the racing anytime he met up with another rider out on the range to talk, Turbo would start prancing and jigging as if getting ready to race. He said he never did get over it.

Reading some of the above, sounds like Turbo may have discovered adrenaline and liked it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I like that name "Turbo". Befitting it sounds like!


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## Hondo

Turb was actually sort of small as a colt and they never really figured him to be a Turbo but he sure turned out to be. He was 1/2 racing quarter horse. Never a cow so I'm told he could not get in front of no matter the terrain.

And his eyes! They have an absolute human look to them as if they are seeing into your depths. And he is the ranch gatesmith. Double lock thingies on powder river gates? He hardly pauses as he flips his lips twice and walk right on through. Opens them faster than I can.

And he is the dominant horse although he hardly ever shows it. The owner told me to throw a flake of hay out in the field if I wanted to see the dominant horse. I gave it to Molly, the lead mare, the others stayed away while she ate, until Turbo came ambling slowly over without a threat and she quietly moved on while Turbo ate alone.

Very interesting, these animals called horses.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> In part, I think, because so many trainers and supposedly expert people teach getting respect in a round pen, or 'making the wrong thing difficult' (punishment that we pretend is not punishment), or simply teaching that horses are too stupid to reason things out - that a horse is INCAPABLE of learning trust because they only understand dominance. *I was told I just needed to be confident, which begged the question of what to do if I was NOT confident*!


I think when you are riding a sensitive horse, your emotions as well as those around you are so very important in establishing yourself as a leader.

I’m not saying to fake it. It might work with some horses, but the ones that are really sensitive, not so much. There are times where I have been not only nervous, but scared. Confidence is not as simple as a lack of fear.

The day Oliver broke my trainer’s shoulder and collar bone, immediately afterwards, since he could not, I had to ride Oliver.

Was I scared? You bet I was. I still was having slow motion visions of the entire crack up playing through my head. My purpose of getting back on him wasn’t what you might think. 

My trainer told me Oliver had to be ridden so that he didn’t think it was a way to get out of work and make a habit of it. He wasn't heading to the hospital until he was sure Oliver got the memo. That was one way of looking at it.

What I was thinking, wasn’t about “teaching him a lesson” or punishing him for what he had done or even showing him I was the leader. What I was thinking was that this could make the difference between him ending up at a slaughter auction or a happy pampered, much loved horse.

I got back on, with no other motivation than doing it for my horse's well being. My confidence that I was doing right by my horse, was stronger than my fear for myself. He didn’t give me a lick of trouble. 

Do I think Oliver knew why I was getting back on? Exactly how good are horses at reading our thoughts and intentions through our body language?

I do believe that with a hyper-sensitive horse, one who is really good at reading other horses and people, it isn’t only our emotions they can read in our body language, but even deeper, the fortitude of the intentions behind them.

Your difference with Bandit is that you know now what is doing right by him. With Mia, I think you had doubts as to exactly what that was. THAT was your failure of confidence, not a lack of nerves or fear of getting hurt.


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## bsms

"There is no fear in love; *but perfect love casts out fear*, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." - 1 John 4:18

There is a book called "Gates of Fire". It is a fictional account of the Battle of Thermopylae. Through the book, a couple of characters discuss fear by trying to define what its OPPOSITE quality would be. "Courage" seems obvious, but they reject it as an absence of fear. In the end, on the night before they will die, they conclude the opposite of fear is love. Love - love for another, love of country, love of some value - is the quality that results in courage. When one's love is strong enough, fear gets put aside and we act without regard for our fear.

But, as you point out, love without knowledge can be ineffective. I sometimes felt like I was part of the British Cavalry :eek_color::

Cannon to right of them, 
Cannon to left of them, 
Cannon in front of them 
Volley'd & thunder'd; 
Storm'd at with shot and shell, 
Boldly they rode and well, 
Into the jaws of Death, 
Into the mouth of Hell 
Rode the six hundred.

The Charge Of The Light Brigade by Alfred, Lord Tennyson​ 

"_Your difference with Bandit is that you know now what is doing right by him. With Mia, I think you had doubts as to exactly what that was_."

Yes, but my doubt was based on knowing, inside, that what I was acting on bad advice, based on false principles. But people told me to "just be confident". If I couldn't, then "act confident" - except Mia knew me too well to be fooled. They told me I should never back off, take her to a spot far enough away that she felt safe, dismount and then TEACH her that the scary thing was not scary, AND that I knew it all along. Why?

Because that was "letting my horse win" - and I've been told many times on HF that I should NEVER let my horse win! It would be "rewarding her" for being afraid, and she would become spookier. An experienced rider with whom I often disagree on HF told me that flat out with Bandit - he would become spookier because I was rewarding him when he became afraid. After all, horses are too stupid to learn trust the way humans do - by finding out, thru repeated experience, that the person KNOWS what is scary, or not, or how to best handle it, and therefor is WORTH listening to!

No, I needed to push her harder. Get a bigger whip, and use it harder! That was actual advice I got on HF.

Or I needed to retire to the arena, and get "body control". But she'd do most anything for me, when calm. And she didn't often get excited in the arena...not after we had worked on it for a while. So this was her in the arena, but at a time when our rides outside the arena could get wild:








​ 
I was told I needed to teach the horse "respect" - in a round pen. "Make her move her feet!" - the Clinton Anderson approach to darn near everything, it seems to me. "When you move her feet, she'll respect you and behave like a lamb on your trail rides!" Yeah...right. IIRC, it was gottatrot who send me a PM offering a suggestion that helped, and was the only real help I got in stumbling my way to a philosophy of riding. 

Apart from her (if it was her, it has been a long time), none of the advice was worth squat. The part that follows comes from a "sticky" on HF:

"_...Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:

1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal.

2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts.....

3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail...I want him to accept that without questioning me...I don't really need or want his opinion at all.

If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me....

4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find....You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse..._"

That is obviously advice that works with a lot of horses. It has helped a lot of people, judging from the responses. That is how Bandit was ridden by his previous owner, and it worked - at least somewhat, up until Bandit would explode. "Get real feisty", as I was told.

It didn't work worth squat with Mia (and the author of it, to her credit, posted later to me that some horses are not bred to accept this approach and need a different tack). It allowed a dominant rider to get Bandit past things, but it didn't result in a good trail horse - because a horse who explodes between cactus is dangerous.

And I'm not a super skillful, dominant rider anyways.

I'm very happy with the results I'm seeing in Bandit. That approach - the idea that it CAN work to teach your horse your judgment is right by PROVING it to him, in the real world, where it counts - is what I needed. And was not finding, almost anywhere. Bondre, gottatrot, SueC and some others provided stories of their riding with their horses, and that plus watching my horses interact and thinking about Mia & Bandit convinced me to take a non-confrontational approach - what George Morris (because yes, there are at least hints of this approach found in books going back hundreds of years) calls "the back door" approach.

Good cowboys have used it for years. My farrier had a summer job on his Grandpa's ranch. There was a horse there who was used for total newbies visiting the ranch. My farrier's job, as a teen, was to saddle him up and ride him, first thing every morning. Because on the first ride of every day, that horse would take off at a gallop, run 1.5-2 miles to a tree out in the open, turn tight around the tree and race back. As he neared the corral, he'd slow - and then he was a perfect gentleman with any rider for the rest of the day. My farrier's Grandpa figured he was such a good horse with new riders that he deserved his little quirks, so he assigned someone on the ranch that first wild ride of the day.

Mutually acceptable compromise. The horse got what he wanted. The ranch got what they wanted. They just had to make sure visitors didn't SEE the horse on his first ride of the day, or else they would refuse to get on!

What I needed with Mia wasn't "confidence", but an effective approach! I needed to be told that I might need to walk her, on a lead line, for 6 months straight - because she held tightly to old habits, and only changed very slowly. I needed to be told to respect her fears, because they were real to her, and to teach her trust. Not by "acting confident", but by taking an approach that would work with an independent, smart, self-reliant horse.

And, if I could do it all over, Id have spent a couple of YEARS riding Trooper, to "up my game" in terms of balance, cues, etc. And then hire a pro to do this sort of thing with Mia, so Mia would UNDERSTAND what I was asking:








​ 
Mia was a special horse, but I think a lot of horses would respond well to a low-key approach - more horses than those that get to experience it, since the dominant approach is extremely common. 

I also think a lot of older beginners - those who start at 35, or 40, or 50 - NEED to use a non-confrontational approach, because we are too aware of what can happen to us if things go wrong. We older beginners lack confidence because we're smart enough to see what could go wrong, and we don't WANT explosions!

All IMHO. And thanks to gottatrot (and HF) for providing a safe place to discuss these ideas!


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## bsms

I'll add that my definition of a good trail horse is one I can put a beginning rider on, and the horse will take care of him (or her) and use good judgment on the trail. I don't view this as what I want in a good trail horse:

"_I want him to accept that without questioning me...I don't really need or want his opinion at all."_​_ 
_Even with obedient Trooper. When we were entering a wash the other day, I started him down a small but steep spot. Halfway down, he moved his right front foot to the right, put some weight on it, picked it up and moved it back next to his left foot. Then he moved his left front foot to the left, put some weight on it, and then eased forward and down - to the left. That is what I want from my horse. I had picked out a route more to the right, but Trooper adjusted on his own because he could feel the ground under his feet - and my way was not the right way. Good horse!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> And his eyes! They have an absolute human look to them as if they are seeing into your depths. And he is the ranch gatesmith. Double lock thingies on powder river gates? He hardly pauses as he flips his lips twice and walk right on through. Opens them faster than I can.
> 
> Very interesting, these animals called horses.


Great stuff in these posts!



> (_*Reiningcatsanddogs*_)
> I think when you are riding a sensitive horse, your emotions as well as those around you are so very important in establishing yourself as a leader....Confidence is not as simple as a lack of fear.
> 
> I got back on, with no other motivation than doing it for my horse's well being. My confidence that I was doing right by my horse, was stronger than my fear for myself. He didn’t give me a lick of trouble.
> 
> Do I think Oliver knew why I was getting back on? Exactly how good are horses at reading our thoughts and intentions through our body language?
> 
> I do believe that with a hyper-sensitive horse, one who is really good at reading other horses and people, it isn’t only our emotions they can read in our body language, but even deeper, the fortitude of the intentions behind them.


I always marvel at how I can go into a field three days in a row at 4 pm and catch a horse. Somehow, even though I'm walking the same (in my mind) and holding a halter, the horses know if I'm planning to ride or not. They can read things in our body language we would have no idea how to signal to them if we tried. 



> (_*Bsms*_)
> Yes, but my doubt was based on knowing, inside, that what I was acting on bad advice, based on false principles. But people told me to "just be confident". If I couldn't, then "act confident" - except Mia knew me too well to be fooled.


I've been there, doing things that I was told because I didn't know what else to try, but yet knowing the horse and their responses and feeling certain it wasn't going to work. I honestly don't think I sabotaged the training by not "believing" in it, but instead understood that this horse was not the type to respond to the methods.

I remember with my Dalmatian, an extremely sensitive dog, I read in a book to teach a dog to drop a dumbbell by bumping him under the jaw (advanced obedience work). I tried it once and he ran and hid, shaking under the porch. Wrong approach. 

I also believe with horses that there are many individual approaches. There are different ways to be extremely sensitive. A Thoroughbred may be extremely sensitive, yet may not particularly care if you are confident or not. It might work well to push them through things they are afraid of. 

Another very sensitive horse like Amore might have difficulty learning confidence from anyone on her back, and might instead only make progress from seeing confidence displayed in other horses or someone leading on the ground. Or a very fearful horse might feel so strongly about "togetherness" that a quaking horse and rider may go together and face things, with the horse never understanding the rider is afraid of the horse, and thinking they are both finding out the world isn't so bad, together.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I don't view this as what I want in a good trail horse:


 "_I want him to accept that without questioning me...I don't really need or want his opinion at all."_

I agree in that it does not reflect what I want in Hondo. He is my pet, and as much as an an equine and human can be, my friend.

That said, I do not use him for my livelihood. In fairness to the many ranch hands that do, and who would nod approvingly at the above statement, they could not do their job otherwise.

If a cow breaks out of a herd that is being moved, there is no time for discussion. If that cow is not turned in short order, others are watching and WILL follow. New as I am, been there done that.

The person who wrote that quote, with whom I've spoken with at length on the phone, has spent literally her entire life with horses as the center of her livelihood. Yes, she comes from the old times and many of her ways are not the ways of recreational riders, including me.

But the wealth of knowledge that woman possesses about a horse in very short order is something I do not even hope to possess in this life.

So, where I do agree with you, I'm just trying to temper it a little. There are many people in Arizona and probably elsewhere that could not make a living without a horse like that.

We love our horses and spend a great amount of time watching, observing, petting, and so on. But if a string of commercial trail horses are going to be maintained for low skill riders, time constraints dictate perhaps different methods for a good trail horse.

Sorry, hope I'm not sounding negative, I just have a lot of respect for her and others with her background and would love to ride with them and recieve pointers while maintaining my pet relationship.

I was raised with draft horses that plowed the fields, raked hay, mowed hay, and hauled the hay in. I drove them. Yes, I more or less thought of them as a tractor and was sort of glad when we got one.

Sort of wish in some ways I could go back.


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## bsms

I draw a distinction between a recreational trail horse and a ranch horse. I agree a ranch horse has a job to do, and the amount of riding they get - eight to twelve hours/day - has an effect that riding 6 hours a week just cannot imitate.

That said...Trooper is an ex-ranch horse. His sire loved working rough cattle. That is what actually 'tamed' him. When he realized a rider meant going to go cover 30-50 miles and working rough cattle, he decided humans were all right. But Trooper got his personality from his Arabian dam, and he HATED working rough cattle. So they used him for sheep, and taking care of sheepherders who hadn't been on a horse before they arrived in America.

So at least some ranches can allow for a horse's individual personality.

Also...most cowboys don't start riding at 50 years old. My approach is one a 50 year old rider might need, but that a 20 year old guy might not.

BTW - Trooper was loaned to another ranch just before we bought him, with the agreement they would NOT use him on cattle. They lied. They decided they would show him who the boss was, and MAKE him cut cattle! And that is why Trooper came to use with bloody holes in his sides, and why, eight years later, he still has bare & lumpy scars on his sides:








​ 
They couldn't scare him into cutting cattle, but they tried! And they also didn't use a saddle that fit.

Cowboy also has ranch time in his history, and Bandit has worked sheep and chased coyotes - all without learning that trash cans are not dangerous. But I understand that sometimes there are time constraints that change how one has to approach things. And there are also a lot of cold blood ranch horses. To give Clinton Anderson his due, as much as I dislike how he is training Titan, he says up front that Titan is bred to be lazy and kind of dim-witted, and he WANTED that in a horse for reining. He said it made it easier to teach him reining, which doesn't make a lot of sense to a horse anyways.

My complaint is that it took YEARS to figure out that what everyone was telling me was not the ONLY way, and that sometimes using "The Back Door" made more sense than trying to break down the front door!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Also...most cowboys don't start riding at 50 years old.


Or 73 YO!


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## Hondo

My memory just kicked in, partly at least, and I actually have an on topic comment.

Early on I was interested in a treeless saddle as all of my (limited) riding in the past was bareback and treeless just seemed to go with barefoot, and bitless, and etc.

I do not remember the brand I inquired about, but the conversation resulted in me sending several pictures of Hondo and his back.

Even though a potential sale was lost, the person recommended that Hondo did not appear to be a good match for treeless. I had totally forgotten about that and do not remember what the reasons were.


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## horseluvr2524

I'm posting some of this in my own journal and will expound on it there. However, the forever reappearing 'rider confidence' term just made its appearance here. :wink:

I wrote earlier about Shan's encounter with the puddle. I, a confident rider who feels that she knows her horse and her horse's reactions well, was confident that Shan would step through the puddle without mishap, given only minor convincing. She decided to jump over it instead, and no amount of my confidence would convince her that the puddle was safe to walk through. Now, if I had dismounted and spent ten minutes walking through the puddle to show her there is nothing to be afraid of as I have in the past, she would have eventually walked through. She does sometimes learn best by example :lol:

On the flip side, I have done things with Shan and other horses/animals that other people failed to do when they tried. With Shan, it is the mutual trust between us that allows me to push her a bit farther than another person would. With other animals, I highly suspect it is my calm and quietly authoritative (confidence) manner and understanding of animal behavior that gives me an edge in gaining their obedience and trust.
But there are times when an animal has decided what it must do, and no amount of confidence or authoritative manner will change its mind. So I believe that to say handler/rider confidence is the be all and end all cause and solution for misbehavior is most certainly folly.

I came across this article and found this particular excerpt very helpful:

_"I recently rode a client’s dressage horse on a two day trail ride in the Tennessee mountains. The horse had a high amount of energy so, for six hours a day for two days we practiced lots of lateral dressage movements and gait transitions. At the end of the two days a good deal of training was accomplished which I would never have been able to accomplish in an arena setting. You can imagine how little energy you would have in most horses if you tried to train for six hours straight in an arena but on the trail it’s a different story, the horse offers the energy then you just direct it into the specific movements.

If you are riding a horse that has more forward energy than you want, you may attempt to control the energy by fighting with the horse to try to hold him back but this accomplishes nothing more than making you frustrated and making the horse angry. Instead of fighting with the energy, direct it into something constructive by positioning the horse into a dressage movement like shoulder-in for example. In essence you’ll be telling your horse, “Thank you for all that extra energy, now use it to do a nice shoulder-in going down the trail.” Or “If you want to catch up with those horses in front of you so badly, you’ll have to catch up while doing half-pass!”

I was once riding a clients very prancy, jiggy horse on a trail ride and rather than trying to fight against this undesirable movement I just used the horse’s natural pranciness to develop a fairly decent piaffe and passage on the trail.

When working with a high energy horse on the trail I use dressage movements to control speed but frequently offering the horse the opportunity to simply walk along calmly. If the horse takes my offer and decides to walk nicely then we do, but if he speeds up again we go right back to practicing our dressage. This way we never have to fight, I just direct the energy into the feet through the positioning of the horse’s body.

The dressage rider develops a much better independent and balanced seat by riding up and down hills. The horse learns to trust its human leader, the relational bond is strengthened and closer communication between horse and rider is greatly enhanced by taking your horse out on "adventures" in the real world."_

https://www.eddabney.com/articles/dressage-horse-trail-ride.html


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## Zexious

Very interesting couple of pages!
I so appreciate this great conversation ! <3<3


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> "_I want him to accept that without questioning me...I don't really need or want his opinion at all."_
> 
> I agree in that it does not reflect what I want in Hondo. He is my pet, and as much as an an equine and human can be, my friend.
> 
> That said, I do not use him for my livelihood.* In fairness to the many ranch hands that do, and who would nod approvingly at the above statement, they could not do their job otherwise.*


My opinion on this is that we have a responsibility to either get a horse that fits the job we need them to do, or else to find a job that fits the horse's talents. There is really no need to force a horse into doing a job he is not suited for when there are so many horses out there that will happily perform it. 

I have ridden many horses that were happy to go slow all day with short bursts of speed, that naturally will go past all obstacles with boldness and that love bossing around cows. 

And then there are horses like General Lee's horse Traveler, who was beloved by the General but tortured Lee's son over a 30 mile ride where he did his choppy jig-trot the entire way. 
There are horses such as the one in Horseluvr's last post that can prance and dance for a 6 hour ride and to try to force those horses into a job where they must stay calm and have no opinion is difficult or impossible. 

But people often dismiss the horse's opinion and personality, and behave as though a horse is a blank slate and training is the only determining factor for what a horse can or should do. 

This book "The Lighter Side of Endurance Riding" by Angie McGhee is a hilarious read. The author has a funny perspective about horses but some great insights too. The previous owner of her endurance horse decided to teach him patience by hard tying him overnight, but found the horse in the morning still moving restlessly in the trench he'd dug into the ground. 
https://www.amazon.com/Lighter-Side-Endurance-Riding/dp/0976873311


> (_*Horseluvr2524*_)
> On the flip side, I have done things with Shan and other horses/animals that other people failed to do when they tried. With Shan, it is the mutual trust between us that allows me to push her a bit farther than another person would. With other animals, I highly suspect it is my calm and quietly authoritative (confidence) manner and understanding of animal behavior that gives me an edge in gaining their obedience and trust.
> But there are times when an animal has decided what it must do, and no amount of confidence or authoritative manner will change its mind. So I believe that to say handler/rider confidence is the be all and end all cause and solution for misbehavior is most certainly folly.


Very well said. 
I will add the caveat to teaching horses that are not calm how to perform lateral moves: it can be very tricky when very talented horses start throwing out those movements they've learned ad lib. 

While I appreciate a horse's athleticism, sometimes I am of the opinion that horses with a steadier temperament are better to teach advanced movements to.

I've ridden many "one trick" ponies. It can be comforting to know what the horse is going to do when upset, and it's amazing how many horses go to the same behavior time and again. But then there are the others, and they really keep you on your toes. 
My friend's horse Cassie that taught herself to Capriole...






It was one movement I did not really care to ever ride, but have done so twice. All you can do is sit there helpless because the bit only has action if it is attached to a leg on the ground, and in the air you control nothing. But Cassie would gather her legs after the leap and land in the first stride of a gallop. 
"Dang you!" (I don't like to be outsmarted so easily). Now if Halla had ever learned this, it would have been disastrous. But Cassie, funny horse, would bolt for only about 50 yards, and then she'd had her fun...she'd slow down, and I swear, laugh.

And why you never know what will work with horses - what stopped Cassie from doing the Capriole was some Clinton Anderson style rubber necking. Turns out you cannot leap and stretch out in the air with your neck to one side. And Cassie is inflexible and untalented at bending so moves everywhere in straight lines. 

So...perhaps if your horse is naturally bendy, use straight lines to teach control, and if your horse is naturally inflexible, use bending to teach control?

Perfect love casts out fear... The Bible also says that the righteous man cares for the life of his beast, so we are in good company here.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think my point on confidence might need clarification based on a couple of responses. There are different parts of confidence.

There is the confidence in your physical abilities. Confidence in your mental abilities. Confidence in your knowledge and in your moral ground…..unless you are a doormat, you have confidence somewhere inside of you and that is where you begin.

I believe that dealing with horses the most useful type of confidence, a foundational confidence, is knowing that you are doing what is right for your horse. It is in the formulation of your intentions every time you approach your horse. They know.

There is the serenity prayer that says something like "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."

You can change much about yourself but it takes time and some things can only be changed so much. 

You may have doubts about your physical ability, or maybe in your mental ability (such as being able to predict when a horse is about to blow) and that leads to nervousness. But those things can be overpowered by a confidence in knowing---believing down to your toes that what you are doing is what is best for your horse.

What I found with my encounter with Oliver’s bad boy side, was that my absolute confidence and moral clarity, that he needed to be ridden for his own good (though not necessarily for the reasons my trainer outlined), was stronger and more important than my doubts about my ability to handle what he could dish out.

The moral confidence of what was right for my horse had nothing to do with having ridden for many years, my gender or my age (accept the things I cannot change) and everything to do with a type of maturation (courage to change the things I can) . 

When I was younger, I would have gotten back on him with the thoughts of “teaching him who is boss” or “showing him how things are going to work around here” or just plain old “boom! Winning!”. I would have ridden because of insult or anger, not because I wanted what was best for the horse. Even though I was stronger, had better balance and was more sure of myself back then, I probably still would have eaten dirt, when this time I did not. It would have been because of the intent not because of lack of confidence. 

After my trainer was injured, as matter of course I did hire a colt starter who is a rodeo rider and does contract work for a big name trainer you would all know here in Texas to work with Oliver.

He swaggered in here with his girlfriend and was trying to impress her (she was my neighbor). Oliver dumped him in about three minutes. My neighbor took longer to do the same. (Who's the lesser intelligent animal here?)

He got all kinds of ticked, told me that Ollie needed to be laid down, was a dangerous horse etc.

I told him “get off my lawn!”. 

I might have not been anywhere near as confident in my riding abilities or my physical abilities as this guy was but I had ABSOLUTE confidence in what was in my horse’s best interest. Oliver knew.

So when someone tells you to be confident, a confidence can be found in some place within yourself. You don’t have to believe you are invincible, that’s not confidence, that’s cockiness. As the colt starter found out, if you believe you are “that good” a horse might just come along to prove you wrong. (the wisdom to know the difference)

That is what is so interesting to me about discussions like this. They can be empowering, if you think outside the box!


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## Hondo

Ha ha. Good story. To quote Minnie Peal, "I'm so glad to be here".

Oh That Strawberry Roan, He came up in the East and came down in the West. 




Good boy Oliver!


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## Zexious

Now that I'm caught up I feel a little more qualified to contribute to the conversation.

I agree completely with the opening statement of your last post, gottatrot. I've been an active member of this forum for a few years now, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ponder aloud (er, atype?) how much they'd love to own a Gyspy or a Friesian or some other stylish 'fringe' breed; when asked what they want to do they say they want to Jump or Event or Rope xD
I have always been of the opinion that people have two choices when they're horse shopping: they should buy with their discipline in mind, or be willing to reconsider their goals if breed is of a higher priority. I sold my first Paint filly after saddle breaking her, as she simply didn't mature to be the Hunter that I wanted/needed at the time. I thought it would be better for her to go to a home where she could excel at something else, rather than keep a horse with whom I would be constantly disappointed. 

I'm intrigued by your mention of a horse's "opinion" on the matter. 
When should you take it into consideration, and when is it appropriate to ignore (for lack of a better word)?
I think the majority of horses don't mind working--I also think there are a handful of horses that prefer having a job--but I would say the bulk of them would rather hang out in a pasture and munch on hay. 
At what point do you completely change your discipline, riding schedule, and goals for a horse who is physically capable but simply does not like the job they have been given?
In this regard, I side more with Hondo. Provided a horse is physically capable of doing what I ask, I believe it should be done. There are exceptions, of course. I have come across very opinionated horses; horses who, for example, can't stand arena work. In the instance that I'm thinking of, the horse in question hated arena work so much that he was ultimately rehomed. Everyone was happier with the outcome. 
Could this problem have been worked through? I guess it depends how much time and effort they would have been willing to expend--how many battles they were wanting to fight.


Ultimately, I agree with what you say.
Training and discipline tactics are not "one size fits all." They should be catered to the horse and rider in question.


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## bsms

Zexious said:


> ...Provided a horse is physically capable of doing what I ask, I believe it should be done. There are exceptions, of course...
> 
> ...Training and discipline tactics are not "one size fits all." They should be catered to the horse and rider in question.


As an "end state", I think most of us want a horse who will do as asked, with rare exceptions. Good exceptions include poor footing, rattlesnakes, javelina, etc. Bad exceptions are garbage cans, pieces of plywood, etc.

The are several ways of getting to that end state. Cherie's is one way, and it obviously works very well for some people and many horses. I'm not bad-mouthing it, at least not intentionally. It really does work for a lot of people. Clinton Anderson may drive me nuts, but a lot of people say his methods worked wonders for their horse, and who am I to say otherwise?

But Cherie PM'd me once, and said Mia wasn't the right match for the approach she wrote about. A very intelligent but reactive horse may need a different approach. James Fillis, writing in 1890, said:

"_The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.

I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....

...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence_." (186)

When I read that, it was the first time I saw something in print that suggested another way could be used. It actually is very close to how I've been working with Bandit - who was a bit excitable on today's ride, but who really came through when I needed him (when my youngest daughter had her first fall from a horse [Trooper!]). He immediately became Mr Calm & Steady and helped me handle both reassuring my daughter and getting Trooper. Other than looking like Rocky Balboa on half her face, my daughter seems to be OK - but I needed a horse who would be rock steady when others were having problems, and Bandit performed like a champ!

I think the END RESULT with Bandit will be a VERY reliable horse. I'm really starting to admire my scroungy looking Arabian/Mustang gelding! But to get him there, and given my own fears and lack of ability, _ I _ needed a low pressure approach.

And Bandit HAD a LOT of miles on him, ridden by a dominant rider, raced on the reservation...but he was still scared underneath. So maybe Bandit needed a low pressure approach as much as I did. But my goal is to have a Steady Eddie (although Trooper is a very Steady Eddie who wasn't so steady today - all horses can have their moments!). Good judgment in a horse includes mostly doing what his rider says...but good judgment is learned in part through bad judgment, and trust follows being trust-worthy. At least for me. But others CAN be successful using a very different approach, and I'm happy for their success.

"_Training and discipline tactics are not "one size fits all." They should be catered to the horse and rider in question_." *Amen!*


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, they don't make song that make you laugh anymore. Good one!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory.


I agree with every word quoted of Fillis except the above. A horse may not be as good as syllogisms at us humans, but when a human is using a syllogism he can't even catch a baseball.

I'm not an expert or studied in this field, but my gut tells me there is reason beyond, If A=B, and B=C then A=C.

The right brain is used to catch a baseball. The left brain would fail every time. I believe the brain of the horse, based on just me, is more like our right brain which has capabilities in reasoning and making good conclusions that our left brain cannot even come close too.

I believe the horse is doing more than just memory when he reads who a person is and what he is up to.

I really feel Fillis cut the horse short in this area.

But alas, without the left brain, we wouldn't be typing on our computers discussing this stuff.

When Hondo walks over to the door of the hay barn after eating, stands at the door giving me suggestive glances, I interpret him as saying, "Hey, I've eaten all my foot and I'm still hungry. You asleep or what?"

Ah me. Who has whom trained? He always get's more.

On another tack, I have begun to question some of Mark Rashid's "right thing easy wrong thing hard examples". But that said, I am so glad that the first horse book I ever read was Horses Never Lie. It, I believe, got me on the right track. I shudder to think where I might be if I had read some of the others I won't mention as a first read.

I do have one additional thought that has come to me recently: Even good advice on horse training can have one problematic caveat. If the advice is "applied" as in doing something "to" the horse. He does know as has been pointed out by other.

Maybe if were approached as: Hey buddy, this trainer said that since we speak a different language that you might understand what I'm trying to say if we did this. What'da ya think?

I don't know how they know or can tell, but I do think they know the difference in that approach rather that rotely applying said very good advice.

I'm rambling........


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo, they don't make song that make you laugh anymore. Good one!


Ha ha. I've only really been around horses a little over two years now but my training has been total immersion.

Short story: Last summer about this time a young cowboy was hired by the ranch. In conversation with him he mentioned that a friend of his and him were thinking about getting back into bronc bustin'.

Some days later he rode over to my camp to say hello. Two of the ranch dogs followed him. One of them and Meka my Great Pyrenees went at it.

After I got Meka pulled off and the other dog departed, I turned around as the young bronc buster was getting up off the ground groaning. His horse was headed back home which was about 15 miles away.

We caught up with him with an ATV.

And the cowboy bronc buster was cussin' his horse and threatening to kill him. He didn't of course but I'm sorry, I viewed the whole thing as hilarious.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo,

You might like Tom Dorrance. 

Tom: “When I was born, I was very small and wasn’t expected to live. But I slept good and ate good and I’m still around. So I didn’t have a lot of power to manhandle a horse; still don’t. Don’t even try.”

Larry: “So your approach was to do what?”

Tom: “Try to find out a way that I could present myself to the horse or to be understandable to the horse. Instead of having an end to a turmoil, I’d try to work things out so that the horse would be happy and I would be happy. I found out that when that gets to working, they’ll work their heart out for you. I’m not a believer in punishment or to get the horse to respond.” 


There was another interview somewhere where Ray Hunt (Tom Dorrance's protégé) was talking about how the phrase wrong thing hard, right thing easy gets misinterpreted and then misapplied. 

He speaks of how it was not supposed to be punitive in any way.....I'll have to scrounge around the net and see if I can find it.


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## bsms

I think the point Fillis was making was that a horse can confuse cause and effect. For example, after Trooper was spurred bloody, he wasn't afraid of spurs. Nope. He was afraid of - TERRIFIED OF - cowboy hats!

He was so terrified of cowboy hats that we sent him to the pro who had helped us with Lilly and Mia. It took her 4.5 weeks, working 5 days a week, to get Trooper to accept being touched by a cowboy hat.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo,
> 
> You might like Tom Dorrance.


I do like Tom Dorrance and have one of his books. I need another.

He knows. His only problem seems to be in getting it across. Not that it is a lacking in his ability, just that his knowledge is so deep and so subtle.

He sees and feels things happening that I don't even know exist at this point.


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## Hondo

Zexious said:


> I sold my first Paint filly after saddle breaking her, as she simply didn't mature to be the Hunter that I wanted/needed at the time.


I've got this problem that most do not suffer with. I am a commitment junkie to a fault. With dogs, it's till death do us part. And it's seeming so with horses. So I just have to figure a way to work out whatever problem there is, no matter what.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I think the point Fillis was making was that a horse can confuse cause and effect. For example, after Trooper was spurred bloody, he wasn't afraid of spurs. Nope. He was afraid of - TERRIFIED OF - cowboy hats!
> 
> He was so terrified of cowboy hats that we sent him to the pro who had helped us with Lilly and Mia. It took her 4.5 weeks, working 5 days a week, to get Trooper to accept being touched by a cowboy hat.


I'll agree with that. Cause and effect is very close to a syllogism. Associations are a little different. Temple Grandin goes on at some length about a horse that was terrified of black cowboy hats. Not white ones, just black. But that said, us human computers can develop phobias based on associations also.

I still think Fillis cut the horse a little short and would probably agree if he were still around. 

Isn't he the one that concluded that a horse could not tell the difference in facial expressions?

On another tack, I'm goaded often about pampering Hondo. I mentioned one day that he side passes on gates really good but I have to take my foot out of the stirrup to nudge him with my heel so he knows what I want and said I'd been thinking about spurs as it would be easier and more clear to him.

They laughed and said, " If you ever get spurs for Hondo they'll be wrapped in foam!"


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## gottatrot

Zexious said:


> I'm intrigued by your mention of a horse's "opinion" on the matter.
> When should you take it into consideration, and when is it appropriate to ignore (for lack of a better word)?


There are so many parts to the question. First, does the horse even know what you're asking? There have been so many times when I thought I was asking clearly and that the horse understood me, but when I insisted, the results were not what I expected. 

Amore is such an alternative thinker, I have to assume she doesn't know what I mean. For instance, I've tried to force her down a trail, had her refuse, and when I pushed she went and smashed her forehead into a tree. I was saying, "Go down the trail." She heard, "Go smash your head into that tree." 

Eventually she gave in, not understanding why I wanted her to do that, but my strength of will won. So I thought the horse's opinion was "I don't want to go down the trail," when it was really "I'd prefer not to smash my head into a tree."

Another time when this happened, I thought I was saying, "Push aside the small branch in front of your chest," and Amore thought I was saying, "Jump over that branch from a stand still." Once she complied, she tried with all her might.




Zexious said:


> I think the majority of horses don't mind working--I also think there are a handful of horses that prefer having a job--but I would say the bulk of them would rather hang out in a pasture and munch on hay.
> At what point do you completely change your discipline, riding schedule, and goals for a horse who is physically capable but simply does not like the job they have been given?
> In this regard, I side more with Hondo. Provided a horse is physically capable of doing what I ask, I believe it should be done. There are exceptions, of course. I have come across very opinionated horses; horses who, for example, can't stand arena work. In the instance that I'm thinking of, the horse in question hated arena work so much that he was ultimately rehomed. Everyone was happier with the outcome.
> Could this problem have been worked through? I guess it depends how much time and effort they would have been willing to expend--how many battles they were wanting to fight.


I think the trick is that many riders think a horse is physically capable of doing something, but they fail to consider if the horse is mentally capable of doing it or emotionally capable of doing it. Amore is very athletic but one of the worst horses I've worked on dressage with. She is very smart, but let's say you ask her to do haunches in. She can bend and use her hind end to drive herself, and can understand how to do the steps. But once you get past the elementary point where the horse is learning how to use their body in lateral movements, you want to practice doing transitions. By the time you do the third transition, her mind is blown up and she's anxious. I kept trying for awhile, and my trainer was patient. But it was not a good fit for her.

Similarly, we fitted up a Paint horse for endurance. She trained with the other horses and was physically capable of going out and trotting for miles, she even scored better at vet checks than most of the others. But going far and fast was too difficult for Maggie mentally. After about ten miles she'd start shutting down and seemed depressed. She'd keep going but required some pushing. Her mind had trouble with the focus needed to keep going. Now Amore excels at that mental state. She gets into a "zone," and gets happier as she goes. 

Another reason why I try to listen to a horse's opinion is that I've found after a time a physical reason why some horses dislike something in particular. With a horse who we kept schooling to pick up the lead his disliked, we discovered eventually he had a back issue and it eventually fused to where he couldn't ever use that lead at all. Horses can have such subtle issues like mild hock arthritis on one side, or a facial nerve issue. 

Any time a horse does not go out happily and do what I'm asking, I always question myself rather than the horse. Both my horses grew reluctant about going out in a new place and I thought they were loving their new pasture and friends. After a bit, I realized the footing on the trails was harder than they were used to and they were getting subtle soreness in their hooves. Once I put boots on them, they were eager to go.

Perhaps a horse that dislikes the arena is getting sore from too many circles. Or like my friend's horse, he was losing the vision in one eye so felt uncomfortable being close to a wall on the blind side. They didn't find out he couldn't see for some time.

If horses could talk to us, it would make things so much easier! I think that's what real training is, just getting the horse to understand what we're asking. Once they know, they are so willing to try for us. When they don't, I have to suspect they have some reason I don't know about, because I've run into that so many times.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> Or like my friend's horse, he was losing the vision in one eye so felt uncomfortable being close to a wall on the blind side. They didn't find out he couldn't see for some time.


Did your friend's horse show unwillingness to do other things apart from arena work due to his failing vision? I ask this because Macarena has a 'bad' eye. She had a mark on her cornea when I got her, and now the mark has grown into an increasingly opaque area. The vet looked at her a long time back and said her cornea wasn't scratched.... but didn't explain at all the cause of the cloudiness. She suffers mild uveitis in summer so he talked about moon blindness, but I believe that's a consequence of her compromised vision rather than the cause. 

Anyway, the results of this that I have noticed are 1) that if I lunge her, she prefers to have her good eye on me and her bad eye on the outside of the circle; 2) she always prefers to eat with Flamenca on her bad side; 3) out riding on a '2-lane' trail she prefers Flamenca on her good side. 

The explanations for this as I understand them are that 1) she needs to see me clearly when lunging to know what I want; 2) Flamenca in the home territory provides protection from predators on her bad side, and she prefers the risk of not seeing pinned ears from the boss mare to the risk of not seeing an approaching danger; 3) not sure? she feels safe with me so doesn't need boss mare protection and hence likes to have her good eye to keep an eye out for pinned ears? Or is this wishful thinking lol.


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> Did your friend's horse show unwillingness to do other things apart from arena work due to his failing vision?


Interesting about Macarena. I would bet you are right about the motivations behind her behaviors. 
The only other issue we noticed with Chase and the vision loss was that he seemed to be spooky on the road, but then we realized he just needed to be able to turn and see the car if his bad eye was toward the road. Otherwise it made him nervous when the car disappeared and reappeared. 

I used to ride a horse with one eye named Jack and he was very reliable and sure footed. I never felt him trip, ever, and he was safe to gallop. We never took him an arena with solid walls, so I don't know how he would have done with that. There was a TV series called "Merlin" and I noticed one of the main horse actors only had one eye.

Speaking of horse communication...
I've been giving Halla some electrolytes with her vitamin E in a syringe because she doesn't use her salt block and I've worried about imbalances since she works hard. I tasted it myself and it makes your tongue want to turn inside out. I noticed Halla didn't like it, but she's been very stoic about letting me syringe it into her mouth. 

Yesterday, after I put it in her mouth, Halla was standing in her stall and some drool was coming out of her mouth as she waited for the bad taste to go away. As I sat watching her, she gave me this look I can only describe as pleading, and then she crept slowly over to me and pressed the flat of her forehead gently but firmly against my head, while still giving me this pathetic, wide-eyed begging look. What could I do? I told her no more electrolytes. I'll just have to trust that she'll eat enough salt if she needs it.

Anyone want a bucket of Enduro-max electrolytes? :icon_rolleyes: 

I tried a different angle with my action camera today. Instead of putting it on my helmet, I put it on a chest harness. Previously I was just seeing Halla's ears, because it was so high on my head.


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## horseluvr2524

Very quiet on the beach that day! If we had had such a quiet day I probably would have been more adventurous with Satin. I'll just have to make another trip up there, maybe with Shan in tow next time :wink:


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## Bondre

Halla looks so intense in the video - the chest harness is much better, on your other videos it's hard to tell much about a horse from just seeing the tips of its ears. ;-) When you're riding on the road Nala is relaxed and stretching out on a loose rein, but Halla still appears to be very alert - or maybe that was her Arab version of relaxed?


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## Zexious

@Hondo -- I'm the same way with most animals.
Unfortunately, as a teenager with a promising career in the Hunter ring--and a job to only pay for one--I had to make an 'adult' decision on the matter. Why would I sacrifice my happiness or my horse's health, when I could have both by finding her a new home?

Also, in regards to the 'right brain, left brain' bit, contemporary psychology has come to the conclusion that it doesn't hold as much weight as we thought it did. I'm sure you could find several studies on Google scholar on the matter. 
Just food for thought c8


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## Hondo

Hi Zexious, it's more about my own inability or weakness in dealing with loss. Did not intend to reflect anything on you or others.

Some of the experiments on humans that have had the left and right brains surgically severed due to life threatening sezures are very illuminating. Horses, so I've read, come born without an attachment between the right and left halves.

In humans, the left vision field of each eye is wired to the right hemisphere while the right vision field is wired to the other side. So each eyeball is wired to both sides.

It'd be interesting to know if this was the same for horses as it might be useful in caring for the one eyed horses being discussed.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Very quiet on the beach that day! If we had had such a quiet day I probably would have been more adventurous with Satin. I'll just have to make another trip up there, maybe with Shan in tow next time


You are one of the boldest riders I've ever been out with. Pretty amazing to take a horse out you just met, and not a calm one, to gallop around in a strange environment. I bet Shan would enjoy coming out on the beach.


> (*Bondre*)
> Halla looks so intense in the video - the chest harness is much better, on your other videos it's hard to tell much about a horse from just seeing the tips of its ears. When you're riding on the road Nala is relaxed and stretching out on a loose rein, but Halla still appears to be very alert - or maybe that was her Arab version of relaxed?


Halla is _always_ intense, but can feel relaxed and confident too, even with her head up. Having such an alert horse watching out for danger is a big reason why Nala gets so relaxed...she really trusts Halla to take care of her. 

Horses normally look for danger. But I wonder how things changed for Halla after being in an unsafe situation for over a year. She was turned out with Jack, the one-eyed Thoroughbred, and he depended heavily on her. They were far out in the mountains, without shelter and in deep mud with predators all around and poor visibility at the edge of a forest. They were starving, and both horses got injured a couple of times. The humans did not know horses, and chased them around on the rare occasion when they wanted to try catching them. 

Now I imagine Halla is comparatively relaxed, but even in her field she is more alert than the other horses. It's like she knows things the others don't, she's "been to war," and is very careful.
Yet she is bold and getting bolder, going through deep woods, over bridges, through neighborhoods and all.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> You are one of the boldest riders I've ever been out with. Pretty amazing to take a horse out you just met, and not a calm one, to gallop around in a strange environment. I bet Shan would enjoy coming out on the beach.


That is a very eye opening statement and quite a compliment, coming from you. I know a small amount of your horse experience, but I do know that you have traveled to many places and ridden with many people. I guess all I can say is thank you! Sometimes I feel like I am not a very good rider because I lack the finesse of the show ring. Yet I have met many people with show backgrounds who I was not very impressed with at their ability to handle just their own horses, and I am also learning just how many gadgets are in the show ring to force compliance for the sake of a class. I suppose my point is that I have slowly come to realize how true the following statements are: ribbons aren't worth much in the real world, and just because you or your horse does not have a show background doesn't mean that you are not a good or excellent rider/horse. There's a lot more to the horse world than showing, but when you're young you think if a rider is worth anything they must win at shows. So not true.

Sorry for the ramble :wink:

I definitely think it would be an interesting experience to take Shan on the beach. She's probably never seen so much water in her whole life. The closest we got was the river, which shockingly I got her to go in. I guess if its too big to jump its ok to go in :lol:
@Bondre YES Halla is super intense. I'm not quite bold enough to try out Halla and Satin in one day. Halla is a beautiful and super impressive mover, literally passing those flying lead changes every other stride as beautifully as any reiner or dressage horse, but they looked very uncomfortable and hard to ride and manage! I have a lot of respect for gottatrot for managing and riding such a horse with such finesse, grace, and gentleness.


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## gottatrot

https://video-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/13852797_167707993640645_79060648_n.mp4?efg=eyJxZSI6IndlYl9kYXNoX2JhY2t0ZXN0XzIwMTZoMSxkZWZhdWx0X2Rhc2gyIiwidmVuY29kZV90YWciOiJzdmVfc2QifQ%3D%3D&oh=665ca3ba2749d307f980a6139db03672&oe=579C4D27
Here's a great video showing how intelligent horses are, and how good at problem solving.

I got my Ultra Thinline saddle pad and rode in it today. I'm very hopeful that it will disperse the pressure a little better under my dressage saddle so I can ride in it more. The amount of balance and security I have in a treed saddle goes up about 20% over a treeless, on Halla. I don't think it would change quite that much with a different horse, but because she leaps and changes leads and bends so much it's like riding a jump course sometimes. Halla definitely moved well in the pad, and was not sore afterward so we'll see how her back feels tomorrow.

Since I was so secure in the saddle, I let Halla do some galloping on a very loose rein, and she was good about listening to me again later on. I love to let horses have freedom as much as possible, but she is one that can exploit it sometimes or have a small discussion when it's time for me to be in charge again. 

@*Bondre* had a discussion on her thread about her husband wanting to buy a horse, and it got me thinking about a slightly related but different topic:
I want to be clear that this has nothing to do with the specifics of the spouses mentioned on that thread, but I'm thinking in a more general sense.

I dislike it when people get too biased about how they believe someone will behave or think based solely on being a man or woman. 
Obviously there are definite differences in the way men think and women think, our hormones and genes drive many things we do. But it seems ridiculous when people assume a woman is going to be sensitive and caring and a man is going to be a meat-head. 

Nursing is dominated by women, and most doctors are men. We are getting many more male nurses and female doctors. Many female nurses dismiss the men as adrenaline junkies, think they should all work in ER, and that they won't be caring to patients. Many people also think the female doctors are going to be more caring and sensitive than the males. Reality is often different, with some of the male nurses being superior at handling sensitive situations, or dealing with small children (much better than me!) and some of the female doctors being the insensitive "meat heads." 

I was on a hoof forum where the female in charge was so sexist she drove the men away, calling them argumentative and blaming their testosterone, saying they were mean and insensitive. All I was reading was logical counter points that this person didn't want to hear. I've also worked with disillusioned divorced women who seem to feel all men are unreliable, untrustworthy, and they don't even want to hear that I have a good marriage because they are skeptical and feel that in time my husband will "turn" on me. 

In the horse world, I've known both men and women who were in tune with horses, and willing to learn. I've also known both men and women who were bullies and treated their horses like unfeeling machinery. My husband rides rarely but when he does he is logical and considerate, and does not blame the horse. I could not imagine him trying to yank a horse in circles like Clinton Anderson. 

One guy at my barn is not very sensitive and tends to not notice things like a saddle pad doesn't fit quite right. But he is still kind and treats his horses well, although his wife checks up to make sure he hasn't accidentally let one horse eat all the grain while the other goes hungry. 

The other guy at the barn is overly sensitive and feels "hurt" when his horse does something like step on his foot. He wants a deep relationship with his horse but doesn't quite have a realistic view of how horses view humans, and that a horse might not have meant to lose the rider just because he spun around fast. He wants his horse to be behave more like his child, rather than a friend, but I think he gets that idea from the natural horsemanship people he's been around. He definitely makes sure his tack fits and that his horse has good care. 

At my previous barn, there was a trainer guy who was not a good horseman. He would throw his one saddle on every horse, run horses around and scare them until they cut their legs on the sides of the round pen. He'd force horses past obstacles such as a big, scary rock that gashed the horse's leg when she rushed by. He'd leave halters and lead ropes on horses to teach them to "give" to pressure (they'd step on the rope enough times or get it caught in something, so they'd learn what to do after cutting their faces up).

One gal shook her head at his tactics and said, "Well, he's a man," and then put a double twisted wire mouthpiece in and held her horse's head back while spurring him forward until he looked curved over enough in the neck to satisfy. I personally could see no difference between her techniques and his, although her horse did not have visible wounds.

I just wanted to express that I've seen some unfair bias in these female dominated areas. It goes the other way with some of the male trainers such as Clinton Anderson and others (the one I typed in was not allowed by the forum, it said his name is "too controversial") and their sexist comments. I find it refreshing that in the equestrian world and in my job of nursing, women can be as successful or more so than men, but I don't see why this means we should have to step over each other to try to get to the top. I'd rather that we collaborated and used our different ways of thinking to figure out how to handle our mares, stallions and geldings (and patients) better. 









_*Riding in Hawaii with my husband several years ago*_​


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## Hondo

I'm getting an error on the video: "URL signature expired"

Is a FB account required?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My husband is much more sensitive than I am. Much nicer and generally less aggressive. When the kids really mess up, and the doo-doo is going to hit the proverbial rotary blades, they go to dad first. 

He still does have the reaction that he believes something is correct and it doesn’t work that the first solution to try is more of it, harder and that should do the trick. 

Example, loosening a rusty bolt. I look at it, see that it is rusted, try to move it and if it doesn't on the first try, I go dig out the WD-40. He on the other hand will sit there for two minutes trying to force that bolt loose. Sometimes he manages it, and sometimes he ends up going and getting the WD-40. 

It does not make him somehow less than, anymore than my female propensity for wanting to talk out a solution to a problem. It just is. 

IMO, disrespect for the other sex does not come from acknowledging our general differences, the disrespect is in ignoring the differences; acknowledge it and move on. 

We have lost our ability to laugh at ourselves. Everything is an insult or somehow makes one better or inferior than someone else. 

In my life, I have had two good friends who are women. I can count fifteen or more who are men. By good friends, I mean they would put their lives on hold if I needed help. 

Women have certain propensities that I, even though I am a woman myself drive me up a wall. It is not because they are women, it is because of how they act. If a woman comes along who does not act like that, we end up friends, it is however rare. 

Am I being sexist in my selection of friends or is it that there are certain traits I find unappealing and it just so happens it appears far more often in the female gender than in the male?


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## gottatrot

Sorry that video didn't work...here it is:







Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> IMO, disrespect for the other sex does not come from acknowledging our general differences, the disrespect is in ignoring the differences; acknowledge it and move on.
> 
> *We have lost our ability to laugh at ourselves. * Everything is an insult or somehow makes one better or inferior than someone else.
> 
> In my life, I have had two good friends who are women. I can count fifteen or more who are men. By good friends, I mean they would put their lives on hold if I needed help..
> Am I being sexist in my selection of friends or is it that there are certain traits I find unappealing and it just so happens it appears far more often in the female gender than in the male?


I agree, I dislike how everyone tip toes around and how everyone is so sensitive to getting their feelings hurt. That's not what I was meaning, not that we should be pretending men and women are the same. But instead seeing people as individuals and giving them a chance to impress us rather than assuming they will behave a certain way. In your example, you're open to having women friends if they have the traits you get along with. I see people constantly dismissing those who have disappointed them in the past, whether it is by gender, occupation, or etc. 

People do this with horses too...mares are going to be unreliable or an Arab is going to be unstable. I like to take things on an individual basis, while bearing in mind certain things that are likely to be true.

I'd say it's over generalizing that bothers me. If you knew a woman my age who liked horses, and she was an arrogant, unkind and selfish, don't assume I will be like that too. I think it's a common human issue - to generalize too much. You can see right away when you start a new job that people will look at you and form opinions before you even open your mouth. They will often begin to treat you according to their generalization before they have any idea of how you will behave.


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## gottatrot

Last topic may have been a bit boring...just had to express.

Anyway, I'm hoping for some advice on another topic:

This constantly puzzles me; how do you take into consideration the aging of a horse? 
It wasn't long ago that they thought a horse in the mid-teens was getting older. I've never thought of a horse below twenty as old, and unless the horse had premature health issues I continue riding the horse very hard and would still think the horse could be used for jumping, hard riding, endurance, etc.

I know there are horses that can't do these things in their late teens, but mostly in my experience those are horses that have not been well taken care of, were used poorly, or have physical issues such as poor build and crooked legs. 

I'm convinced from reading about how horses' bones develop that horses should not be ridden hard until age 5. That I don't wonder about anymore.

Do you have any limits on age and what you would use a horse for? For instance, a horse over twenty. If they appear healthy and fit, how would you decide what they could do? Would you limit the mileage to something like 15 or 20 miles on a ride? Would you only do low jumps or not jump at all? 

So far I've been letting my own horses' health and energy levels dictate what we do. But I also ride horses that belong to other people and I don't know them as well. I wonder if I should have certain guidelines for what I wouldn't do, or what wouldn't be fair to a horse over a certain age.


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## tinyliny

my experiene has been that when men do come to the barn , or join a riding group, they are treated like celebrities. they are cut more slack, treated with more acceptance and more kowtowing and false admiration. it makes me gag. I like it that guys come to our barn, and I try hard to be as welcoming as possible, but I am not going to treat them special just 'cause they are male. I don't think they would want that.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> my experience has been that when men do come to the barn , or join a riding group, they are treated like celebrities. they are cut more slack, treated with more acceptance and more kowtowing and false admiration. it makes me gag.


Interesting...so your experience has been somewhat the opposite of mine. Here they are viewed with suspicion, as though they will ruin the atmosphere or get in the way. If Buck Brannaman or Clinton Anderson came to our barn people would say, "Excuse me, you're standing in front of the bridle I need."


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## tinyliny

where I ride, they'd say, "that is such a cool saddle you are using (saddle fit is terrible, set too far back, cinch super tight) . . you've ridden for a whole year? that's awesome. and you're going to show next month, in the 2' foot jumpers? gee, that's so cool"


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## bsms

If I was treated as a celebrity or cut slack during the few months I took lessons at a stable, I totally missed it. Maybe it was because I was at least 20 years older than the next oldest student, and closer to 30 years older than the rest. Maybe it was the bifocals and gray hair...

I don't think I was treated with suspicion, but I wasn't 'part of the gang' - and they were group lessons. Could have been me, though. I was there to learn, and seemed to be the only one who listened to the instructor. I know I said on another thread that guys won't listen anyways, but we do if we ask for the lessons and are there for a specific reason. In my case, I was trying to survive buying Mia, and a desire to live creates a strong incentive.

No experience with older horses. Trooper is our oldest, and he is a 99 model. He may be losing sight in one eye, but we don't know that for certain and don't want to spend the $500 to find out for sure. Bandit is our youngest, but the way he used to use his left front leg has me scared he could suffer a few years down the road. 

OTOH, our horses are just used for hiking. They hike, we ride, for about 5-10 hours/week. That is very mild use.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Last topic may have been a bit boring...just had to express.
> 
> Anyway, I'm hoping for some advice on another topic:
> 
> This constantly puzzles me; how do you take into consideration the aging of a horse?
> It wasn't long ago that they thought a horse in the mid-teens was getting older. I've never thought of a horse below twenty as old, and unless the horse had premature health issues I continue riding the horse very hard and would still think the horse could be used for jumping, hard riding, endurance, etc.
> 
> I know there are horses that can't do these things in their late teens, but mostly in my experience those are horses that have not been well taken care of, were used poorly, or have physical issues such as poor build and crooked legs.
> 
> I'm convinced from reading about how horses' bones develop that horses should not be ridden hard until age 5. That I don't wonder about anymore.
> 
> Do you have any limits on age and what you would use a horse for? For instance, a horse over twenty. If they appear healthy and fit, how would you decide what they could do? Would you limit the mileage to something like 15 or 20 miles on a ride? Would you only do low jumps or not jump at all?
> 
> So far I've been letting my own horses' health and energy levels dictate what we do. But I also ride horses that belong to other people and I don't know them as well. I wonder if I should have certain guidelines for what I wouldn't do, or what wouldn't be fair to a horse over a certain age.


My trainer's favorite horse gave lessons until he was 35. He only put children or small adults on him and it was walk-trot. He's 37 now and still looks healthier than my Ghost who is somewhere in his thirties, and now completely retired as a pasture puff.

I actually considered buying my boarder's horse for a guest horse. She 21 and still got a lot of pep though I wouldn't ride her hard or jump her ever. Not because she can't do those things, but because she shouldn't if her older years are to be as comfortable as possible. 

Older bodies, which I have found out as I went past 40, just don't recover as well from the little injuries that you almost never gave a second thought to when you were younger.

PS If I had a dollar for every time someone assumed that because I was small and blonde I was a cheerleader in HS, I could start that horse rescue I've always wanted.


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## tinyliny

my friend did not really ride her Arab until he was nearly 6. kept him barefoot til 7 or 8. he now has the strongest feet, even shod, and big bone. he'll be sound into his 30's, you wanna bet!


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## egrogan

I struggle with the aging horse question. Isabel is 22. She has some mild arthritis in her hocks, but the addition of Cosequin seemed to do enough to keep her comfortable for the light riding I do. I am pretty sure she has Cushings (uncharacteristically slow shed this year, loss of topline, hay belly look, significant weight loss coming from spring into summer) but blood tests this spring came back negative. The vet continues to say she's doing well for her age, and riding does her good. But since I don't have experience with knowing "how much is too much" for an older horse, every time she seems sluggish, or hesitates when being asked to go over particular terrain, my first thought is "_am I asking her to do something that hurts?" _So it's a fine line between knowing when they _can't _vs. when they would prefer not to if given the choice. We muddle our way through.


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## gottatrot

We have a funny video from yesterday...Nala's rider wore the Gopro on a chest mount. But due to the big stride and forward balance point on Nala, we see Nala's neck a lot when she is going fast. Well, we are just beginning to learn how to video. 

Unfortunately also the camera battery died before the big gallop she did, so we only caught the first half of the ride. Anyway, it's funny to see Halla zooming in on the sides here and there. It's hard to hear, but at the point where Nala goes the fastest, her rider says, "Easy," and then she takes off. She might think "Easy" means go faster.


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## Hondo

Not sure which camera you have but GoPro has one model that will transmit live to a smart phone which allows tweaking during the shoot.

I watched a video a while back that looked as if the camera must have been mounted on the cinch. It turned out really good and I think that would have been impossible without being able to actually see what angle etc it is recording at. It was really cool watching the horses feet in front from that low of a mount.

I have an old Contour and would like to have the new GoPro model but Hondo says no that the money is better spent on him. The old Contour does have a laser light that can be used to adjust it fairly good.


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## horseluvr2524

Always looks like such fun! I would love to take a spin on Nala. I am still holding out the hope of maybe buying TL someday, the thoroughbred I told you so much about. His owner won't do anything with him. She won't sell him to just anyone, but she might to me though knowing he would have a forever home. I can be nearly guaranteed that he will be waiting for me should I ever be able to take on a second horse.

I have to say, I never understood the love for thoroughbreds until I rode a really good one!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Not sure which camera you have but GoPro has one model that will transmit live to a smart phone which allows tweaking during the shoot.


We have a GoPro Hero3 and a Sony action cam. Sounds crazy but I don't have a smart phone. I'm still struggling with this concept of the future and for some reason the transition is difficult. It's a mental hangup about spending that much money each month for a phone. If they called it a portable computer, I'd be all for it, since we have cameras and computers galore. We love technology and my husband and I built ourselves a desktop computer with a few hard drives we call "the Beast," because we couldn't find a custom computer with the components we wanted. But each time I think, $100+ for a phone bill, I revert back mentally to somewhere in the 80s and go buy a new bit or saddle pad instead.
@horseluvr2524: From what you tell me about TL, I hope you can get him someday. Nala's rider added me to a group for retired OTTBs, and there are some great horses out there. Here are a couple recent ones I liked:
I thought either wouldn't mind a life of running down the beach. 

















Tonight I was feeling a bit ill with a sore throat. But at the barn, Earl's rider was wishing someone would ride with her and I found that when I was on my horse I didn't feel sick at all. My sore throat reappeared when I got off again. Funny how that works.

We went in the arena and I discovered that Halla was able to do the most slow, balanced and straight trotting and cantering I've had from her in years. A very important lesson she's been teaching me is that you cannot train a horse to do something they can't physically do. No amount of correction or reinforcing cues or relaxation from the rider will keep a horse from rushing if the horse is unable to go slow due to balance or strength issues. 

I think this success is based on a combination of things: 
She's no longer vitamin E deficient, so her nerve/muscle connections in her body are working properly. She's been able to develop her smaller shoulder more because of my focus on riding in a saddle that stays balanced and lets her shoulders move freely - and also my careful attention to using both leads and both directions in turns. And I believe all the hard work on the beach and going through deep sand and up and down hills has also given her the strength to overcome imbalances. 

I'm trying out something new. Tonight I rigged up a snaffle/hackamore combination, and Halla seemed to really like it. I do not know how it will work out in the open country, but I might try it tomorrow. What I did was put the Waterford D ring snaffle in Halla's mouth in a simple headstall. Then I put my Barefoot hackamore over the top, with a chain under the chin. I've been looking at pictures online, and thought it was odd they put the hackamore over the bit. But I tried it the other way and it doesn't work - the hackamore interferes and pulls on the bit unless you put it over the top. I rode with two sets of reins so I could use the snaffle mainly and steer with it, but use the leverage of the hackamore. 

I noticed that Hickstead, the amazing jumper was ridden in a Pelham with a single rein on the bottom (used just as a curb bit) for while. Later on, his rider began using a snaffle/mechanical hackamore combo. I wonder if he, like me was looking for ways to communicate and balance his horse better. It used to be that I always thought people using more contraptions on their horses' heads were just upping the ante as the horse began to pull harder. But now I wonder if many of them are actually just trying to find more refined ways to communicate, and ones that the horse likes better. Well, we'll see how it goes. 

At first glance this looks rather harsh, until you realize that this is taking the horse down from a Pelham into an Eggbutt snaffle. No leverage is applied until the rein is brought back quite a bit, and then there is leverage to assist with stopping or rating this very strong and hot horse. I'm trying it with double reins first.








I love this video...


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> We have a GoPro Hero3 and a Sony action cam. Sounds crazy but I don't have a smart phone. I'm still struggling with this concept of the future and for some reason the transition is difficult. It's a mental hangup about spending that much money each month for a phone.


My internet connection is through Verizon, my only suitable option. A change in Verizon's share all program allowed me to turn on a smartphone free of charge. Amazing! So I grabbed one off EBay and activated it.

I was wondering if the a smartphone could be transmitted to by Gopro without the phone being activated. Visiting the site I found that the GoPro 4 now has it's own display screen on the back of it that can be turned on for pointing.

It's only money............ 

Edit: The jump over that post almost scares me. Did the rider make some error in turning the horse into the jump at that angle?


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## bsms

OK, I'm a geek. Watching the video, at the 30-40 second phase, I noticed the rider's foot did not have the heel down, then almost came out of the stirrup going over the top, then slid in to the home position by the force of the landing. The slow motion at the 50 second marks shows it well, too.

And then the rider looks back, and you can almost hear him thinking, "_Did we just do that?!_" Sounds like a remarkable combination of horse and rider:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/s...ow-jumping-horse-dies-during-competition.html








​ 
One of the things I liked in Littauer's book was his statement that average riders should NOT look to the example of top riders, because riders and horses at the top of their game had a level of athletic ability no recreational rider could hope to match.

"_I personally, appreciating the scientific part of riding and devoting this book primarily to it, because it is the part that can be taught, am very much for individual artistic expression. If someone were to obtain a magnificent performance from his horse, neglecting most of the advice in this book, I would be the first one to appreciate it. *Rules are not made for geniuses. *The trouble is that the artistic part of riding does not allow itself to be analyzed or imitated; it is the property of an individual. And even if one is born with it, his natural talent will not manifest it from the first day in the saddle, but only after education or long experience...

...Translating this into terms of riding, it means that while the rider is exclusively interested in himself; that is, in how HE looks in the saddle, in how HE makes the horse take a jump, in how HE holds his hands, *he will remain a rider and only a rider - not even an artistic one. In order to be a horseman he must forget himself, identify himself with the horse, feel that it is he, himself, who has changed leads at the canter or taken the jump; only then will there be that complete union and harmony that produces true art.*" - Page 191

"Believe me, you will never become a horseman if the only type of suggestions you are going to look for are such as these: "keep your heels down and hold your stirrups under the balls of your feet", "to start the canter on the right lead keep your right leg at the girth, while with the left leg etc., etc." These are secondary and elementary considerations. In riding, as in everything else, *an understanding of fundamental ideas is all important, while details like heels down don't make horsemen*. Appreciation of the importance of the horse's balance is basic and hence the whole of this chapter is devoted to it. There are no shortcuts, and to make your efforts in the saddle worthwhile you just have to learn the basic theory. To cheer you up - it is very simple." Page 31

_I'm obviously no genius like Eric Lamaze, nor my horse some genius of a horse. But I'm slowly coming to appreciate that even what we do together is a blending of my horse's abilities and desires, my tack, my goals and my limitations (and strengths) as a rider. Thus what works well for me might REALLY be something that most people should NOT do. It could just be, for example, that the straight legged approach to riding used by old time cowboys works for me because it is something that works well for a very slender horse ridden in a western saddle with a relatively larger rider. On a thick Quarter Horse, it might have no place at all.

And I'm convinced Reiningcatsanddogs' video demonstrating the difference in the center of gravity of the average male and average female also demonstrates why some men might instinctively keep their feet further forward - because when our heavier upper bodies start going forward, we're screwed if our feet are directly under our hips! Unless, of course, you are an Eric Lamaze and have reserves of skill, balance and strength that most of us lack.

When someone tells me I MUST get to toes pointed forward and my heels under my rump to ride well, I think they entirely miss the point of riding. Littauer said the first principle of good riding was to stay in fluid balance with your horse. Apart from the fact that in my saddle, pointing my toes straight ahead would first require me to take a sledgehammer and shatter my ankles and legs...the fact remains that my current angle of foot works very well for me, my horse & my saddle. We are working with each other and my knee doesn't throb afterward.

I'm also becoming convinced that "mutually acceptable compromise" is the key to good horsemanship. I'll be curious to hear how Halla responds. "Horse" comes first in "horsemanship"...


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## horseluvr2524

Haha! Another hackamore snaffle combo! Let me know how it works for you. Shan seems to really like hers, but its more of a sidepull with snaffle. I use the sidepull as my 'ask nicely', and the snaffle for the 'pay attention!' or for fast canters and gallops when she doesn't feel the sidepull anymore. I also like being able to keep the bit rein loose and keep contact with the sidepull instead for times when my hands are unsteady. I don't have to worry so much about grabbing the reins or being in her mouth and hurting/irritating her.

Those thoroughbreds are lovely. TL is a really awesome horse; he has so many great qualities to him: he loves to go fast but is very easy to slow down when you want to. He is very sensitive, I can guide him between rocks at speed following a narrow trail with simple weight change, the ultimate 'look where you want to go and the horse follows'. While he can get nervous like any hot blood, for the most part he is very cool headed and keeps the same temperament no matter the speed. Really all I need to say is that he is easily controlled in a simple D ring snaffle at full gallop and all speeds! I would feel safer putting DH on him than on Shan (lol!). He is a big powerful mover and feels so impressive to ride. Even just at the walk, he feels like a coiled spring ready to take off into a full gallop, yet he is totally relaxed. Lots of impulsion I suppose? On top of all of this, he has very strong legs and hooves for a TB and isn't bad for looks either, and seems very healthy.

Probably the only real vice he has is he is a jerk about being tied and standing for groom/tack. I think I could get him over it though


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## Zexious

@bsms -- I think the only time a rider "must" do something while riding is in the show ring


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> This constantly puzzles me; how do you take into consideration the aging of a horse?


I'm still pondering on this a bit. I can't offer any advice for certain to any that frequent this journal, but maybe I can offer a thought.

Hondo is not that old but I am inexperienced in judging when to back off with a horse. But I did and do know that a horse can easily overdo itself.

So I bought a heart rate monitor. I keep it at all times in my pommel bag. On long hard climbs I like to have it in place. Takes only a minute to install. Then I know at least what his heart is doing.

I did this after looking down on one climb to see water pouring off his front fetlocks. I dismounted immediately, loosened his girth, rested a while and then led him on up the hill.

Many know that the average absolute maximum heart rate for a human is 220 minus his/her age. And for me it's a good formula. I've been there once and my vision and mind were beginning to blur.

At 74 YO, a so so moderate heart rate at 80% max for me is 116 BPM whereas for a 20 YO it would be 160 BPM.

Horses have not been evaluated but many authors conclude some diminishing with age would only make sense.

And the average maximum HR for horses is about the same as humans prior to the age subtraction (220 BPM).

On a climb, Hondo seems to appreciate a short stop at about 130 BPM. His recovery is fantastic. I generally wait until it hits 70 BPM but he is often indicating he is ready to go before that.

At a trot he goes past that but with my knees and not being able to sit or post the trot, have no values on a longer duration trot.

Just something to think about.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> The jump over that post almost scares me. Did the rider make some error in turning the horse into the jump at that angle?


Yes, I think it was a serious error and only a horse like Hickstead would have imagined jumping anyway rather than refusing. 

I was sad to hear when he died, but my first reaction about perhaps the horse was used too hard was tempered when I heard he had a ruptured aortic aneurysm. Unless we did a CT scan on every horse, we'd never know if a horse had one, and they can rupture on horses that only exercise mildly just as easily. My current barn owner had a horse that died suddenly when young and she had a necropsy done since the horse was insured. He had appeared extremely healthy, but also had a ruptured aortic aneurysm. An anatomical issue that any of our horses might have. 

The information on heart rate and aging is a good one for me to think about. I hadn't thought much about how the goal heart rate can change with age. I've read that when training for sports, a person can use effort as a guide rather than pace or distance, and have good comparative training results. 

So a person could either run a half hour at a certain pace, or they could run a half hour and compare their effort on a given day. It makes it easier to gauge how a person is doing when things change such as a strong headwind, hills or footing. It seems like effort might be a good gauge for aging horses too, and heart rate would be a good indicator of this. What was an easy ride for a horse at 12 might require a lot of effort at 25.


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## gottatrot

*@horseluvr2524*, I'd forgotten you also were using a bitless/snaffle combo. Interesting how your strong part is the bit, and gentle part is the sidepull. 



bsms said:


> OK, I'm a geek. Watching the video, at the 30-40 second phase, I noticed the rider's foot did not have the heel down, then almost came out of the stirrup going over the top, then slid in to the home position by the force of the landing. The slow motion at the 50 second marks shows it well, too.
> 
> And then the rider looks back, and you can almost hear him thinking, "_Did we just do that?!_"


I noticed both of those things too. My thought was that Lamaze might have felt his foot slide and said to himself, "Shoot, almost lost a stirrup," so shoved his foot in far to ensure he would keep it. Almost like, "If we're going to have this kind of a ride today, I'd better make sure I keep my stirrups."
I agree with the thought that top riders may not always follow equitation or safety rules, because they have turned their riding into feel and art and can adjust to things on the fly. 


bsms said:


> *Rules are not made for geniuses. *
> The trouble is that *the artistic part of riding does not allow itself to be analyzed or imitated; it is the property of an individual*. And even if one is born with it, his natural talent will not manifest it from the first day in the saddle, but only after education or long experience...
> 
> I'm obviously no genius like Eric Lamaze, nor my horse some genius of a horse. But I'm slowly coming to appreciate that even what we do together is a blending of my horse's abilities and desires, my tack, my goals and my limitations (and strengths) as a rider. Thus what works well for me might REALLY be something that most people should NOT do. It could just be, for example, that the straight legged approach to riding used by old time cowboys works for me because it is something that works well for a very slender horse ridden in a western saddle with a relatively larger rider. On a thick Quarter Horse, it might have no place at all.


I think this is a common problem we have in the horse world. We see what works on our horse and in our situation, and then we tsk, tsk at others who aren't doing the same. 

I really like that part about the art of riding. We can all create art. My painting might not be a Rembrandt, but my brain has some creative skills and art is actually something that comes not only from innate talent, but also can be improved upon. Many great masters went to art school. 

I think of what Mark Rashid calls "feel" as this type of art. To me it's not the same thing as an aura or some psychic connection, but rather it's learning to be in tune to what is working for a particular horse. And by that I don't mean by what is getting a result I want, but I mean what is making the horse better. Better in movement, stronger in the body, more confident in me as a rider. Progressing in the right direction.

So you might look at me riding on Halla and think I'm holding my hands too high. You might think that breaks the communication with my horse. However, over many miles and years of riding this horse, in_ this particular bit_, my feel is that we make the best connection when my hands are in a certain place. I noticed the other day when I put my snaffle/hackamore combo in, my hands were immediately working down on Halla's neck. That's where the balance point was with this different setup. To me, that is the art of riding, and while my art may not be stylistically like someone else's, it is improving over the years and becoming more accurate to what I am trying to portray to the horse. 

There seem to be steps in riding, and some people never get past the first steps, and others get very far but only on a single horse they learn to make art with. 
I remember when first beginning, that I had to pay attention to all the different parts of my body. If I didn't think about my elbow, it would do something wonky. If I didn't try to stay loose, my shoulders would tense up.

Next I was able to ride without thinking as much about my body parts, but I tried to keep my body in a certain semblance of good equitation. I worried about my balance, and about how it affected the horse.

At some point, I stopped worrying about my equitation, and began trying to only be effective. I wanted to stay on. I wanted each cue to say exactly what I meant it to. I wanted to stay out of the horse's way so he could perform. I wanted to be as strong or as gentle as I meant. Equitation that was about safety was the most important.

Whatever phase I am in now, it is less about rules. I used to feel self-conscious...what would people think of how I rode. Now I don't wonder if people think I am a good rider - I wonder if my horse is comfortable with the way I ride, if it makes her better and gives her confidence. I worry about conditioning and tendon strength and unknown sources of discomfort for the horse. I don't mind if someone says I should do this or that, I always like to revisit things and see if I have the right reasons for them. But many times I can feel that the way I am doing it is working, and is right. So I don't change to what might work on a "thick Quarter horse." 

It's a very good point about tack, too. There are so many variables that can make what we need to do different. This is part of "feel," in my mind. And our own bodies...for instance, my hands are very tiny and people (nicely) have teased me about them. Knowing how many types of reins there are and how many different sizes of hands, how do I know what gives you effective grip and the right feel for you? My good friend has a very short torso and super long legs. She sits on a horse differently from many of us, but very effectively.

People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding.


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## bsms

Part of Littauer's point was that a rider SHOULD eventually diverge from what he was taught. He took what he had learned about the forward seat, taught a lot of students, and then made modifications based on what worked well for most recreational riders (riding 1-3 times/week) on a horse who knew how to jump. He simplified some things, and ended up with a system of teaching that allowed most of his students to jump 2 1/2 - 3 feet after 4 months of riding.

I've debated riding with a fixed knee on other threads. I was told we know more now than in the 40s, so I should ignore Littauer. But Littauer was well aware of riding with a fixed knee. The Italian cavalry taught it, and he had tried it. He said a very good rider could use it with a specific horse and might get better results than what Littauer taught. BUT in his experience teaching new riders, he found riding with a fixed knee created a pivot point that new riders rotated around, falling head first. Even with a more experienced rider, he thought it worked for horses who knew their stuff and could be counted on not to refuse a jump, or for a horse who REALLY needed his rider to get out of his way.

So his advice was not based on being ignorant of the concept, but on having tried it, watched the results, and concluding MOST riders on MOST horses were more likely to suffer serious harm with a fixed knee than to gain any benefit.

My first point of diverging from Littauer - whose book, along with an Australian saddle, may have saved my life - was to use a longer leg. Since I wasn't planning on jumping, why did I need to get very far out of the saddle? Why wouldn't SLIGHTLY out of the saddle work? From back when I was refusing to use a bit:

















​ 
Much longer leg than Littauer taught, but much of the rest is there - or my attempt at it.

My next major divergence was switching to a curb bit. I was starting to be at what Littauer considered the Intermediate stage, where the rider starts using contact regularly. But I knew that wouldn't work for me with a curb bit, so I switched to the western approach for reins. With a different horse, my learning constant contact probably would have been the correct thing to "advance" to, but I was "_only on a single horse they learn to make art with_" - and that horse needed me to advance in the opposite direction.

So I started to go beyond painting by numbers, and experiment with switching colors or going outside the lines. As you point out, gottatrot, "_We can all create art. My painting might not be a Rembrandt, but my brain has some creative skills and art is actually something that comes not only from innate talent, but also can be improved upon_".

But to do that, one needs to go beyond the book. Littauer expected riders to do so. I don't know if the Pony Club Manual does. Certainly many instructors do not. "_I was taught toes forward. Toes forward is what I've always done. YOU ride with toes forward!_"

Why? "_Because the number 3 means red, not blue! There are two ways, the right way and the wrong way, and 3 equals red is the right way!_"

"_At some point, I stopped worrying about my equitation, and began trying to only be effective. I wanted to stay on. I wanted each cue to say exactly what I meant it to. I wanted to stay out of the horse's way so he could perform. I wanted to be as strong or as gentle as I meant...Now I don't wonder if people think I am a good rider - I wonder if my horse is comfortable with the way I ride, if it makes her better and gives her confidence. I worry about conditioning and tendon strength and unknown sources of discomfort for the horse._" - gottatrot

"_...Translating this into terms of riding, it means that while the rider is exclusively interested in himself; that is, in how HE looks in the saddle, in how HE makes the horse take a jump, in how HE holds his hands, he will remain a rider and only a rider - not even an artistic one. *In order to be a horseman he must forget himself, identify himself with the horse, feel that it is he, himself, who has changed leads at the canter or taken the jump; only then will there be that complete union and harmony that produces true art.*" - Littauer

_Which leads us to the conclusion, which I may use as my signature for a while:_

"_People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking about something from a clinic that was held at my barn a few days ago. I wasn't planning to attend due to a family reunion, but ended up getting sick so missed both. 
One rider told me some things that were emphasized, and a very big one was keeping a horse focused on the handler or rider. They were taught that every minute or so, a person should check in and wiggle the bit or make the horse do something in order to ensure the horse always thought about the rider/handler.

I'm still thinking this one over. It reminds me of a dog trainer who wanted the dog to always be looking at the handler's face and never looking away. I didn't care for the technique. I guess with horses I want them to remember I'm there, but I don't think they're going to forget that anymore than I will forget they are there. I've done this with the greenest horses I was riding for the first few times, because I think those horses might forget about the rider and get startled. 

I don't think this technique is very useful, for myself. I've had more problems with horses being too inward focused and not noticing their environment. I'd like the horse to focus on their footing, where they're going, and whether they're about to run into a tree. I'd like them to see something that might be potentially frightening such as a deer before we're three feet away from it. 

Maybe some horses are different, but I've found that if something seems scary and I don't let the horse look at it but instead start trying to distract them with cues, it will often make things worse. 

With Amore it's almost like she finds the object important, and she wants to have her brain power available. If she's trying to read the highway sign and I start going, "What's 30 + 44?" she isn't going to give my math her whole attention, but instead will split her focus and that can overwhelm her and make her panic. So instead I try to do something easy, like just walk or trot past so she can use her brain better. 
****************************************************

I tried out the double reins/hackamore/Waterford combination on Halla on the beach today. There are things I really like about it, but the real test will be tomorrow when I go out with Nala. Halla by herself likes to go fast, but there is no competition so it's different than when you have Seattle Slew's granddaughter running with you. For steering and balancing, it is much nicer than the curb bit. But my arms are a little sore, and it takes more strength to half halt and stop. It might be the right idea, but I might need more leverage from a longer shanked hackamore. 

It was interesting to see what some riders were using in Rio, and it gave me some ideas about what the horse's issues might be. I saw one jumper wearing a very long sided full cheek snaffle, and the rider had double reins on it. As far as I could see, it was just one bit, just a snaffle. I wondered if the horse was very difficult to steer, and if the double reins actually helped push and pull the horse in the right direction better. As they jumped, it did seem like it was quite a job to get the horse lined up right. Still at world class level though.


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## gottatrot

*Crime and Punishment - Farrier Edition*

We talk about how popular and pervasive some ideas about horses are such as horses endlessly trying to dominate us, and I swear I run into them everywhere. 

Nala's owner couldn't be at the barn for the farrier, so I agreed to show up and hold her. 

Nala is not yet good at standing still. I feel she is getting much better, but Rome wasn't built in a day. This is a very hot and fit Thoroughbred, and the trimmer uses an angle grinder power tool, and it doesn't frighten Nala at all. However, if you bring Nala down to the lower area where we tack horses up, she is ready to go and gallop a few miles, and it excites her. 

So I brought Halla down and tied her nearby, because I know Nala is more calm with another horse there. The trimmer wanted Nala lined up just so, and I remembered why getting my own horses done was sometimes a chore when I had others trim them. Each foot must stand in a certain way, they want the horse straight, and then they have to hold that position for up to a half hour or more. 

When I trim, it's relaxed and easy. I just go to where the horse is standing (tied), pick up a foot, trim it, maybe they set it down a couple times or I move a few feet in the process, but my tools can come with me, and it only takes a few minutes. I don't want anyone kicking, or leaning on me, and I need to hold the foot for at least a minute at a time. Other than that, no worries. I've trimmed Nala like this, and it's pretty fast. But I don't have time to ride and trim a bunch of horses, so I don't offer to do it all the time. 

Well, a car drove by and Nala stepped forward and the trimmer was very upset. She shanked her a few times and then backed her up a ways, and that didn't do anything except make her crane her neck up higher. Once the trimmer had her foot up again, Nala was twisting her head and trying to look every which way but stood. I talked to her and she listened for awhile. 

In the whole trim, she set each front foot down about three times. But the trimmer was upset because we couldn't get Nala lined up and she wanted to walk off until we actually had her foot up working on it. 

Anyway, my point in all of this was that the trimmer told me that Nala was trying to dominate us by moving toward us, and that she was a very dominant mare. She said this was bad behavior and that she was testing us and it was very dangerous to work with her. She wouldn't do her hinds, but then decided she could do her hinds with just the rasp if we took her up the hill to her comfortable area near her field. 

Once we got up the hill, Nala was super calm, and dozed off while her hinds were done. I explained to the trimmer that Nala was used to tacking up down below, and then going for ten miles with long gallops. I told her she was a super athlete, super fit, and that I thought her behavior was improving. I also said that I didn't feel she was a very dominant horse, since Amore pushes her around and Amore is not dominant normally. In the end, the trimmer decided to next time trim her up the hill since she was so calm and easy there, although she didn't like the idea of catering to the horse. 

To me it is very obvious that Nala was not trying to dominate the humans, she was standing more still than she has in the past, improving on her performance, but at times couldn't contain her energy and had to walk forward a bit. Her eyes were soft and listening, but there was a lot of energy vibrating off her. 

I don't believe she understood at all that the trimmer was reprimanding her or punishing her for not standing still. When the trimmer shanked her, she had been looking over at Halla, and she stopped doing that. I think she associated the punishment with her thought at the time which was around Halla. When the trimmer backed her up, I don't think she thought of that as a reprimand at all, but just as a brief break and opportunity to move about. What I think did help was when she began to lift her weight off the hoof stand, and when I in that moment made a sharp tone. When she looked at me and left the foot be, I praised her. To me, that is how you improve the performance for the next time. 

Anyway, where does this idea come from that a human should hold the horse for the farrier? How often do we stand with our horses and have them put all their feet just so and stay like that? I don't know about you, but when I have a horse's lead in my hand, we're going somewhere. Yet horses know when they're tied, that's when they should stand because they're not going anywhere. I much prefer trimming a tied horse to one that someone is holding, because they want to move a lot more. Same with shots...I wish the vets would just let me tie the horses instead of trying to get them to stand all squared up to wait for the jab they know is coming. 

People can say it's the farrier's right to feel safe with the horse, that the owner should have the horse trained appropriately, and all of that. Yes, ideally. But I think some of their techniques could be very much improved upon, since I and others have had to trim and even shoe horses the farriers deemed too dangerous. It would be different if I did not trim the same horse myself, perhaps if someone was trimming a horse and thought they were just too much to deal with and I hadn't trimmed them, I'd think I had no right to talk. But I do get down under there myself. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hondo

Crime and Punishment. Been a little over 50 years since I read that book.

I remember Patty saying it was common in Europe for the client to actually hold the horse's foot.

Interesting about the tied/untied thinking. Hondo seems to prefer untied. Rimmey tends to prefer tied, at least ground tied.

It took me a while to figure out if Hondo moved or looked around or whatever, there was a reason for the action and not one that needed punishing. Sometimes when sweat is in my eyes and I'm frustrated about something the desire to correct (punish) is there but I'm getting pretty good at subduing that desire when it does raise it's ugly head.

Hondo got very fidgety just the other day when I was trimming for what seemed like no apparent reason. Oops! He was needing a potty break and wanted to go to his corner! "I don't know how to ask, so maybe you'll understand this!" 

Rimmey has historically been a very difficult horse to shoe and has been badly abused because of it. I have gotten to where I can finally pick up all four out in the field and hold them long enough to pick. The trick seemed to be my willingness to allow him to escape, walking over to him, petting, then continue. At first there was no way I could pick up any foot without being tied.

Horses! What a world I've entered!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> It reminds me of a dog trainer who wanted the dog to always be looking at the handler's face and never looking away.


I had the very same experience with my dog Brutus, half Malamute half Australian Shepherd, back about 1990. The trainer's dog never took it's eyes off the trainer. And the trainer kept reprimanding me that Brutus was testing me. Well, that was ok with me. I didn't want an automaton. After he got well introduced to other people and other dogs, I discontinued.

I remember from one of Buck Brannaman's videos on the filming of Horse whisperer that they could not get a horse to put his head into a girls lap because the horse had been trained to always look at the trainer. Buck finally trained one of his own horses for the shot.

I'll add that back when spin/bolt was becoming a serious and dangerous problem with Hondo one suggestion made was that perhaps he was going to sleep on the trail and that jiggling the rein on long boring stretches might wake him to his surroundings so he could see dangerous horse eating cows befor right on top of them. I think it helped along with a few other things.

From what I've read, I don't think any horse that you ride is in danger of falling to sleep on the trail!


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## bsms

Your farrier reminds me of the guy who quit after Mia kicked him flat. He wanted her to stand just so, and always pulled her hind legs way back and at an angle, in spite of my repeatedly asking him not to. He said it was needed, although he was the only farrier who felt that need. So one day, when I wasn't there to calm her, she kicked him and sent him sprawling across the dirt. He quit.

When I got home, her hind feet needed to be done, so I took a rasp, put the lead rope in my back pocket, and trimmed her hind feet with my rasp. She nearly fell asleep while I did it.

Mia was very used to having her feet held and worked on. She wasn't used to having her hind leg pulled way out. And I don't want to think about what would have happened if a farrier tried what your did. She would have melted down! "_Oh, Mr Farrier wants a fight, does he?_"

It takes our current guy about 30 minutes to do all three. I hold them because there isn't a good place to tie them. If I'm not there, he puts the lead rope in his back pocket. He mostly holds the foot between his legs and a trim doesn't take long. If the horse needs to put his foot down and re-position, he can. He says shoes would take longer, and custom shoes longer still.

BTW - at the end, I think Mia came close to dozing off while being ridden. Her biggest, hardest spooks came when she was super relaxed. The only explanation that made sense to me was that she was 95% asleep and then startled when she woke up. Using the reins or scratching her neck or asking her to look at something with me helped.


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## gottatrot

Today Halla had a _great_ time on our ride. She cantered absolutely straight, powered off her hind end, felt balanced and strong. I rode her in the hackamore/Waterford snaffle combination, and she was very happy with it.

Then there was me, the rider. We started off cantering with Nala, and it felt great with Halla going so balanced and straight. I'm in the habit of checking in every minute or two, to see how Halla's mental state is. Perhaps this is what the clinic instructor was talking about...making sure the horse is "with you." But for me it's not about keeping the horse from spooking, but rather about making sure the horse hasn't decided to quit the team and start working on her own. Maybe that's the same thing for some horses...for mine it isn't: spooking is a fast, unthinking reaction that occurs whether they are totally with me mentally or totally not.

So I checked in with Halla - she didn't respond. Gave it another thirty seconds, checked in, no response. I should clarify...normally when we're working together, I'll give a little half halt with the reins, and feel a slight give in Halla's speed and position. She'll check her stride for a moment, and then I'll either then say "OK," and let her continue, or I'll check her again and bring her back to whatever stride I want. 

If what I'm using is too weak, she'll just take off and I'll have to turn her and use other measures to control the speed (and then not ride in it again). If what I'm using is too strong, she'll get upset and check back too hard, then her energy will start building and I'll have to let some out. This combo was oddly exactly even: it wasn't strong enough for her to listen, but it wasn't weak enough for her to just take off either, so we got into this limbo where I was trying to check her speed but it didn't phase her. But I had enough strength to keep her from running faster. So it felt great to Halla, looked good on the outside, and yet we could have done a canter at a controlled (but fast) speed all day without me stopping my horse, until I told Nala's rider to slow down and then I was able to get a response from Halla.

I've been in this limbo land with Halla before, a few times. It's not a bad place, it's just not one a person can regularly ride in because if something happens to change the equation (the horse finds extra power from excitement or fear), then you have a horse that is unable to get back with the team, and bad things can happen. Also my shoulders and lats feel like I've been lifting weights or rowing a boat.

Nala's rider remarked on how happy Halla was about the whole situation. At one point Nala was confused because I had to turn Halla up a sand dune to help her slow, and Nala thought we were leaving the beach at an odd place. 
I said that even in this case, Halla was not trying to dominate me, she was just trying to have more fun. Sometimes, I'm trying to stop her "fun," in a way, just because I'm thinking bigger picture and about things we might run into if we go all out in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was not bad tempered, in fact she was quite good tempered to find out the opportunity that had come her way on this lovely day. 

I still like the idea of the hackamore/snaffle combo, but Nala's rider has a longer shanked hackamore that she is going to let me try. The barefoot hackamore is just barely more than a sidepull, with not much leverage. I think when Halla cantered she was able to push her nose forward to distribute much of the chin pressure onto the wide noseband, which rendered my pulling power to only about 1:1. 








Otherwise it's back to the curb bit, which does work very well, but is not as useful for balancing over tough terrain as the snaffle.
Well, I'm always trying for something better for the horse, but it can't be too good for the horse and not quite good enough for the rider.
I saw this video and thought this girl was in a similar situation: the horse is happily cantering around, the rider has no power to stop the horse, it's not that bad in this case, but some other solution is necessary.


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## Hondo

The joy of horses running puzzles me. I spent five summers in the mountains behind Carson City, Nevada where there are several bands of wild horses. I never saw any of them run unless they were running from me.

After being entered in a few races, a horse on the ranch here started wanting to race every time another rider pulled up alongside.

I understand the joy of running by a colt or other young animals, people too, but is an adult horse's joy of running a learned thing or is it in the breed or that some horses just like to bust out running sometimes??

I also have never seen any of the 17 adult ranch horses here run for no reason except just before a storm. I did see Hondo kick up his heels one day it was spitting snow and doing two consecutive 180's during a gallop. Good thing I wasn't on him!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My horses like to run when the weather changes over from our hot days and nights to the cooler evenings, starting right about October. 










They will also run sometimes after everyone has been hosed down and had a good roll. (playing)

Another time they will run is when we add a new visiting horse to the herd and the herd dynamic gets shuffled. 

Oliver specifically, will run competitively when we are out with a group of horses he doesn't know and he is cued to run. He's just like get out of my way slow pokes. The master is coming through! It was one of the things that made me go, hmmmm, not a QH, covers too much ground per stride....in the pasture though he drives the others from behind rather than leading the herd (pic above)


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## bsms

Wild horses tend to conserve energy. There isn't much to spare for most wild animals. I used to work deer check stations in Utah. There were a few fat deer on private ranches where the deer were being raised for hunting, but out in the desert? Skin, bone, a little muscle and zero percent body fat. Starving people don't play sports either.

Some of it may be learned. Some is breeding. Mia seriously wanted to run and was very competitive about it - so competitive that I couldn't afford to let her run outside our little arena because she'd forget about things like rocks, cactus, footing...she was a serious danger to herself, let alone me! Several people said she was Crabbet bred on the sire's side and Russian racing lines on the dam's.

In fact, I just realized she was bred by the same farm & people who owned her sire, who sired 9 National Champions. It says something sad about horses that she ended up being sold at 8 years old for $1200 to a guy who hadn't ridden in 25 years and had only rarely ridden before then. Happily, she is now living where she gets to run long and hard at times, and will be used to breed others.


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## gottatrot

I agree that wild horses are probably working hard at surviving and don't want to waste energy. They might have to run from a predator later in the afternoon, so better not get tired now.

I think it's personality, breeding (but not necessarily breed), and having energy to spare that makes some horses enjoy running. Both Nala and Halla spend time daily running in their fields. Nala will circle her pasture like she is doing turns around a racetrack. Another horse, Butch, who has a bad knee so isn't ridden - but is still sound, likes to gallop the straight down the field and back. I never see either of the two stocky mustangs at our barn running in the field. 

Amore has never wanted to go faster than she needed to unless she was scared. Whenever we were out with other horses, she felt the need to keep up and not be left alone, just in case it was dangerous. So we always went along at a good pace, but on solo rides I always had to push her. To train for endurance, I had to do a lot of jogging myself with her to keep her pace up when there was no one to go out with us. Now that she's semi-retired, she's wholeheartedly embracing the idea of going slow and on our last ride a couple days ago she only trotted a couple of times. 

You'd never think Amore was a great athlete, she's built kind of funny with a very short neck and large barrel, but she has super genes and was always the easiest horse to get into shape. Her body always handled hard work extremely well. Other horses would be breathing hard or getting tired and she'd be going strong, even if the others were supposed to be in better shape. But she was always ready to quit and go back to eating the second you allowed her to. 

She was one I never followed any weight limit rules on. She has a very short, strong back and showed no signs of stress when younger even when a 230 lb rider rode her for about 5 miles (a very good rider). That was 30% of her body weight. It wasn't something I did regularly, but my 190 lb husband also rode her on slow rides at times and that didn't bother her either. 

Some horses I've known, like Halla and Nala like to run even without competition. Halla has always been one that will go out alone and wants to go out as far as I point her nose. Nala is the same regardless of another horse being there or not, so she's not very competitive. Halla is intensely competitive and with another horse it changes her from mildly wanting to run to intensely yearning to run. Yesterday when Nala's rider was holding her back, Halla shot in front of Nala suddenly and her whole body felt like it swelled to twice it's size and her canter turned into a leap of joy. I told her she wasn't really winning, since Nala was not trying, but it didn't matter much to her. 

Today is my birthday, 39 and still feel like a kid. Have a few dents and dings that horses have given me, but overall doing great. Might be in the genes too. Yesterday my parents were showing us their new car, and my dad who is 81 crawled into the trunk and laid down to show us how big it was. I know people my age who couldn't pull that off and get back out again!


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## egrogan

Happy birthday! Here's to many more long gallops on joyful horses


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## tinyliny

at our place, the main herd has 20+ acres to run on, but it's very hilly. they do, however, occasionally just go. usualy it's one horse who is anxious about getting to the feeder, or a mare in heat who is all bugsy, or a horse newly seperated from his buddy , so they mostly run out of an expression of anxiety, but sometimes they will do short spurts of play running if they've just arrived from a more cooped up living situation.


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## Hondo

Yes, happy birthday! 39 is a good year. Stay there

The wild horses in Nevada were certainly not hesitant to run because of their condition, but according to Mark Rashid's "Old Man" under those conditions a horse will conserve energy as you say.

But the horses on the ranch here are not in the wild although they have 600 acres to roam around on and if they actually wanted, 26,000 acres. And they never run with weather conditions being the exception along with the babies.

So I think it may flip back to "all horses are different". And maybe they have learned to like it. In thinking about this I remembered back when I was young, (your age), I ran 2 miles every day before work for training and conditioning. I would always park at the back of parking lots, (still do), and often busted into a jog on the way to the storefront without even noticing it. I would often get some strange looks. It actually felt good and was fun. So maybe that's it. And Turbo, one horse here on the ranch, definitely "learned" to enjoy racing another horse from the stories I've been told.

Good on your dad for staying young. I have one friend whose dad, now deceased, did a running mount from behind a TB on his 82 birthday. He used to race his own TB's.


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## bsms

I read the last few posts and had nothing to add. About 10 minutes later, I looked out the back window. We had let the horses out of their corral, giving them about 1/2 acre to run on. For a moment, some wind gusts had all 3 running, but then it was just Bandit. After a couple solo laps around the corral, he tried to entice Cowboy:
."_Come on, Cowboy! You wanna chase me! I know you are chubby and short, but I won't run hard. Come on, come on, chase me!_"

Nothing from Cowboy.

"_You don't want to chase me? *YOU DON'T WANT TO CHASE ME?*_"

He stretched his neck out and bit Cowboy on the butt! Then he spun away, laughing and shouting "_You DO want to chase me! I knew it, I knew it, you DO want to chase me!_" Bandit stayed just out of reach, then circled around a small tree. They faced each other, and Bandit bounced back and forth.
​"_Left or right, left or right, which will it be...doesn't matter, you'll never catch me!_" Then they were off again, but just for a short time. Cowboy is 13.0 hands and has a rather prosperous looking girth, so he really wasn't in the mood.​.
But a few minutes later, I went out to feed them hay pellets. The horses all followed into their corral. Three horses, three buckets of pellets. Trooper took one bucket. Cowboy and Bandit shared the other, leaving the third for later. And in Bandit's defense...there wasn't a mark on Cowboy. Bandit is perpetually covered with bite marks, while Trooper and Cowboy have none. He may be the instigator, but he doesn't ever actually make contact.

That is something her Highness Mia NEVER did, and he had my wife and youngest daughter cracking up with me as he pestered Cowboy - who obviously didn't take much offense.


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## Hondo

That is so funny! I actually saw a similar incident and follow up to a butt bite. No hide and seek behind the tree though. It was prelude to a storm orneriness.

Off Topic, sort of, but about birthdays.

My oldest of four turned 48 July 30th, youngest of four turns 38 March 6.

Continues to baffle me how they got that old.


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## horseluvr2524

Happy birthday gottatrot!

About the hackamore, the odd thing is that I had less control in a zilco flower hackamore (similar to the barefoot, short shanked) than I do in what is basically a straight up sidepull. The one I use now which she is very responsive to is a monty roberts halter that has a rope piece attachment over the nose, which works very similarly to a stud chain. When I bought it, at the very least I thought it would replace the hassle of putting on the stud chain (Shan likes to try and run through the halter when you are not paying attention). Turned out that she was very responsive in it, so I use it for riding as well.

Farriers can be difficult to deal with. I have a good one currently but so hard to get him to stick to a schedule!


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## knightrider

Happy Birthday GottaTrot! Hope it was a good one.

In my mix of 4, I always seem to have a young one (I've gotta stop doing that!) who gets the others running just for fun. My 3 year old filly likes to gallop around and my 11 year old gelding joins in, along with our Grand Old Man of 21. Isabeau, the queen, just canters behind daintily. She never lets herself get flustered or act foolish.

When I was a kid, I had a pinto who loved to gallop around our pasture jumping everything he could. He would leap over the jumps I had set up in the pasture, and then sail over the manure pile. He was just hilarious. When I sold him to a riding camp, he would whip the other horses into a frenzy getting them to race around with him.


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## Bondre

Hope your birthday was a good one! Your dad sounds quite a character. We're visiting my mother at present, who is rising 85 and took us out on a nice hill walk the other afternoon. My Spanish husband is always amazed by her as in Spain the old folks don't go climbing hills - or contort themselves to fit in the trunk of their new truck either :rofl:



horseluvr2524 said:


> About the hackamore, the odd thing is that I had less control in a zilco flower hackamore (similar to the barefoot, short shanked) than I do in what is basically a straight up sidepull. The one I use now which she is very responsive to is a monty roberts halter that has a rope piece attachment over the nose, which works very similarly to a stud chain.


Interesting, I have found the zilco flower to be unsatisfactory too; Macarena is less responsive to it and the metal rubs the sensitive skin on the side of her face. I first used a crossunder for her and then a side pull, and in the end I prefer either of them to the hackamore.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> He stretched his neck out and bit Cowboy on the butt! Then he spun away, laughing and shouting "_You DO want to chase me! I knew it, I knew it, you DO want to chase me!_" Bandit stayed just out of reach, then circled around a small tree. They faced each other, and Bandit bounced back and forth.


So funny! I've always thought geldings know how to play better than mares. The two TB geldings at my last barn would pull each others' fly masks off regularly. One day I saw that one had pulled off the other one's mask and they both had grabbed it in their teeth and were playing tug of war. Just then the owner showed up and was like, "Yes, that's what I buy those for, boys." 

Amore figured out that she could put her head over the fence and one of the geldings would pull her mask off for her. I'd always find it across the fence in their field. I'd see one gelding chasing another, brandishing a fly mask and shaking it in his teeth. 
"I'm lunging you!"

Two geldings at another barn would play king of the mountain on top of the manure mound and shove each other off the top. 

Great advice about bits and hackamores. Browsing around the internet the other day, it occurred to me that I hadn't thought of trying this option:








I bought one to try with two reins. It's like a Pelham, but much better with the curved shanks and billy allen mouthpiece that prevents the bit from folding up and pinching, but also allows the side to side independent motion. 
I'll try this and also try a snaffle/hackamore combo with the longer shanked hackamore to see which works best.

I've often realized that with horses it's best to think back over a longer period of time to assess your progress. If you only look at what you're doing day to day, you might not notice how much progress you've made with a horse. With horses, big changes are made up of tiny increments that build over time. A good ride makes us see how things are improving, and make us feel good, but I think it really helps to think back six months, and a year and more to see if things are really getting better or worse or staying stagnant.

Thinking back, up until now I'd thought that when I first got Halla, we'd made tremendous progress, and then we had a backward turn for awhile before our current progress again. When I really analyze the past, I'm understanding it differently. Our first couple of years we did make a lot of progress, but at first I treated her as a very green horse, and rode accordingly with horses and riders that made allowances for that. After that, I moved to a place where we rode trails that became predictable to us, and almost always either alone, with Amore or another solid and mellow horse. It was progress, but also it was not so difficult for Halla to adjust to.

It wasn't until we moved to my current barn where Halla ended up having health issues, that I thought we ran into trouble and had to work on many things. The health issues did cause some problems, but I'm realizing now that what we also did was take things up another level. Instead of riding with Amore or out alone, we now were riding with people who were on green horses or competitive horses, and some that did not make allowances for the person on the "hottest" horse. 

Also, our environment changed from trails that were a minor variation on a theme, with tiny changes such as a flower blooming or a deer trotting by. Now we face the wide open and constantly changing landscape of the beach. Everything changes on the beach every day, from the location of the ocean, the texture and layout of the sand to what kind of debris is around and how many people, cars and kites are about.

It was puzzling me a bit how I was able to ride in a kimberwicke for several years without finding it necessary to "tweak" things or make changes. Now I've been working hard at finding the perfect communication tool, and I see now it's because we've actually progressed beyond where we were. Now that we can gallop around on wide open spaces _with_ competition from not always completely controlled compantions, we've made it to a new level of training. As a result, things have needed fine tuning. This is progress, and it's nice to see that looking back we've actually come a long way from the first days of having other riders help us stop with their more solid minded horses, and being able to work Halla on my own.


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## gottatrot

Tonight, I tried out another mechanical hackamore on Halla. Nala's rider left one at the barn for me to try. What I thought she was describing was a german hackamore, but it was actually an english hackamore.








German hackamore








English hackamore​ 
We went for a ride, but it was a bit hot. Now those of you who live elsewhere might find this difficult to believe, but they actually put out warnings for those of us who are so unused to any heat:








In this weather people do things like go for ten mile hikes and don't bring any water along, so they have to use red coloring to tell us not to be stupid.

The first thing I did was try to use two reins, with one working as a sidepull on the upper part of the hackamore. That proved to be a waste, and only muddied up the waters so I took off that rein after a few minutes. With a hackamore it only seemed to make things less clear, which is probably why you don't see the equivalent of a Pelham hackamore. But, I wanted to try, as I'm sure others have before me. :wink: For some reason I can't just go with the hundreds of options there are already out there for headgear, but instead want to make my own new invention.

I've often looked at the mechanical hackamore, and I've ridden in them and disliked them. Something that occurred to me today, however, is that I've only ridden horses in them that were not trained well to the hackamore. As a result, I thought they had terrible steering and a poor design that made them an unclear tool to use. What I found was that I've ridden this horse hundreds of miles, and she not only can feel the directions I'm giving from my seat and legs, she easily picked up the signals from the hackamore. 

I've wondered about the flat plate design of the mechanical hackamore and I've never read about why it was made that way. What I realized today is that the flat plate is actually a good design. I always heard that an english hackamore was not designed for direct reining, but I think that is false. The flat plate actually makes it so if you pull on one rein, the side does not flip up or poke into the horse the way a flower hackamore does. It also has another good feature, which is that the opposite side pushes into the horse's face and assists with the steering just as a full cheek snaffle does. 

The sides of the english hackamore were exactly the same length as the shanks on my curb I've been riding Halla in. "Experiment #187," I thought to myself, shaking my head as we rode down to the beach. But Halla doesn't seem to mind. I wonder if she likes experimenting too. 

It takes a little courage, because I can ride around the fields and I just never know how something will work until some things happen: First, we have to go out into the open country and get a little spooked. Second, we have to gallop and see if Halla will respect that she needs to stop. Third, we have to have some competition and see if Halla will still listen, and Fourth, Halla has to test the equipment and see if she can figure out a way around it.

Today we did the first two things. Halla spooked a couple times and we didn't lose communication so that was good. I let her out into a gallop and gave her some loose rein, then asked her to slow up and she was right there, listening and super responsive. 

So in other words, I have no idea if Halla will test the hackamore and win, if we will have no brakes once Nala is out running with us, or if it will work well. We shall see. It could be my little mare was just feeling mellow from the heat.


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## knightrider

I have two of my horses in that exact hackamore. I believe I posted a photo of it in bsms's journal (or somewhere, anyway). The two horses that go in that hackamore respond really well. One is my daughter's just turned 4 year old filly, who can be quite rambunctious when she feels like it. But I am quite happy with those hackamores.


I also wanted to comment about progress. Like you, I felt like I wasn't making much progress with my quirky mare Isabeau. She still kicks in the trailer after my loading her and feeding her in the trailer for more than 3 years every single day. That is more than a thousand times of loading and being in the trailer. She still is very nervous in the trailer and if I actually haul her somewhere, she is literally dripping fear sweat when I unload her, trembling, terrified. So, I get discouraged. But not long ago I found a book I had kept of goals for her. I had forgotten that one of my goals for her 3 years ago was to mount her unassisted, without someone holding her head. And to lead her forward without having her spin around me as I walked. Another one of my goals was to have her move around me as I was leading her through a gate so that I could close the gate. For some weird reason, she was totally offended that I should deign to expect her to maneuver around me. She thought it was completely my job to maneuver around her wishes and wants. Now, we do all 3 of those things without even thinking about it. I had even forgotten that she wouldn't do those things.

We'll get that trailer issue solved one day. It might take 3 more years, but I'll never give up. And congratulations to you for all your progress too! yay!


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## gottatrot

> _*Knightrider*_: I also wanted to comment about progress. Like you, I felt like I wasn't making much progress with my quirky mare Isabeau. She still kicks in the trailer after my loading her and feeding her in the trailer for more than 3 years every single day. That is more than a thousand times of loading and being in the trailer. She still is very nervous in the trailer and if I actually haul her somewhere, she is literally dripping fear sweat when I unload her, trembling, terrified. So, I get discouraged. But not long ago I found a book I had kept of goals for her. I had forgotten that one of my goals for her 3 years ago was to mount her unassisted, without someone holding her head. And to lead her forward without having her spin around me as I walked. Another one of my goals was to have her move around me as I was leading her through a gate so that I could close the gate. For some weird reason, she was totally offended that I should deign to expect her to maneuver around me. She thought it was completely my job to maneuver around her wishes and wants. Now, we do all 3 of those things without even thinking about it. I had even forgotten that she wouldn't do those things.
> 
> We'll get that trailer issue solved one day. It might take 3 more years, but I'll never give up. And congratulations to you for all your progress too! yay!


It sounds like you are making great progress with Isabeau too. Interesting to hear you have horses that like the mechanical hackamore too.
Some horses just can't have some things trained out of them, I've decided. Like Amore will always be extremely spooky and reactive. But we don't know until we try, and many things can be resolved such as Amore's fear bucking, and pulling back, and Halla being difficult to catch and pulling her feet away. 

********************************************************************* 
Something odd happened to me today at the barn. 
There has been a very nice, white barn cat around since I moved there named Winter. He's friendly and comes to see everyone and hangs out when we arrive. I'd never missed seeing him for more than a day until last week, when he disappeared. 

There was another orange cat at the barn when I first got there, and that cat disappeared about a year ago. Someone found some orange fur and we assumed coyotes killed him. Now this does make me sad, so many barns I board at have cats that live outdoors, and they live short lifespans due to cars, coyotes, birds of prey, etc. My own cat has always lived indoors because I don't want to risk her getting injured or killed.

There's also a sweet, middle-aged black lab named Max who lives in the house on the property. He has a dog door and comes and goes to visit with people. Today he came down to see me after my ride. I was talking to him, and I said, "Where's Winter, do you know where Winter is?" 

Max turned and ran up the hill, stopping after a few feet and looking behind him. I asked him again "Where's Winter?" and he ran a few feet more and stopped to look back at me. I've never had a dog do this, but I've seen videos of dogs that wanted people to follow to burning houses or people in trouble, and it looked just like what he was doing. So I followed him up the hill and he led me for a long way, running and looking back at me periodically. We went around the horse fields and back into a side trail where there was a baby elk that had been killed a couple of months ago. We had seen the carcass on rides, and it was already decomposed by then to where you couldn't tell how it had died. 

Now the elk carcass was just a pile of old bones, and Max ran up to it, sat down and looked at me. I said, "Where's Winter?" and he looked at the bones, and looked at me. I swear, the dog was either telling me the cat was dead, or that coyotes had killed both the elk and the cat. I told him he was a good boy, and he sat by the bones for awhile as if contemplating. 

I ran into the barn owner and told her what Max had done. She said her husband had woken her in the early morning hours a few days ago and they had heard a large pack of coyotes howling. She suspects that might have been the coyotes celebrating a kill. Very sad, but interesting how the dog possibly was trying to tell me what had happened to the cat. 
************************************************************
I took Halla out with Nala in the mechanical hackamore today. It's only the second ride, so I don't want to be too optimistic. But to me it seemed possible that this is the best option I've tried on Halla so far! She was very compliant with it, and I was able to let her pace with Nala for probably 3/4 of the ride or more. Often if I let her run with Nala instead of having her a bit behind and checking her pace, she will try to race. Then she gets too excited and fights a little until I bring her back under control. 

As a result, it was a very fast ride. Both horses were extremely happy about it. For one thing, the sand was wonderful today with a wide path near the ocean that was not so hard it felt like concrete, but still flat and hard enough that the horses didn't sink into it. There were very few people on the beach, and it was warm with a light breeze that cooled us off and dried the horses' sweat periodically. 

At Nala's "racetrack," around the point, she took off and Halla was still compliant so I let her gallop out as long as she didn't stretch her head too low. We started out cantering past two older women who were standing agape with huge eyes, staring after Nala's speck disappearing into the distance. They turned as I approached, and I said, "We just let her go! She's a race horse so we catch up later." They were laughing and nodding, exclaiming about it. I doubt they'd ever seen a horse fly that fast before. 

It didn't seem like Halla could really fight the hackamore. If she put her head too low, I'd give an intermittent pull on one rein to lift her a bit, and if she didn't do it right away I held the other side steady, which made the pull more forceful. None of this made her upset or made her try to push back, like some things we've tried. It was a very lovely ride.


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## horseluvr2524

I rode Shan in that very hackamore for years. In the saddle it was great, never any issues. However, on the ground, she could occasionally pull her 'flip around and take off' trick. Well she did just that on a trail ride last spring and stepped on the reins, in the process breaking the conway buckle. So then I started experimenting with other options.

It is what I rode Shan in when I first got her, however she was green broke and headstrong and was able to run right through it when riding. So I switched to a snaffle for a few years. Then one day came back to it and found her so much happier and more responsive. I've found that horses that have a good foundation in seem to like it quite a lot, whereas for the green horses it does not seem to provide clear enough communication.

I am absolutely amazed that Halla responded so well in it. Hopefully she will continue to do so!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Do you have raptors? To date we have lost four cats and two small dogs to either owls, eagles or hawks. At first we assumed coyotes also, but they don't get that close to the house. 

The cats we have are now all indoor cats and the one small dog we have only goes out with an escorting big dog. The ones that scare me the most are the mountain lions, they will actually hunt their prey and stalk them for miles before the best opportunity presents itself. Scary!


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## karliejaye

It's interesting you mention using double reins with a hackamore. I have a long shanked mechanical hackamore (like the German Hack you put a picture up of) with extra rings on the nose. I believe it's made by Myler. I used it on my ex-steeplechaser when we did show jumping for a while, before I found a bit he did better in. I actually loved using double reins on it, as I felt I could steer with more clarity using the upper rings. 
Actually, here is the exact one (though mine has a flat leather nose, NOT a covered chain nose):








PM me if interested, I would be willing to part with it if you're interested in giving it a try!


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Do you have raptors?


Our biggest ones are the bald eagles. But we have some big owls too. When I bought my Papillon, the breeder said another puppy in his litter was going to replace a dog that had been carried off by an owl when the owner put the dog outside at night. So I've been very careful with my dog. In the spring, the bald eagles are very active. Several years ago I spotted one so I was watching the sky very carefully since my dog was running with me on the beach. I was so busy looking up I almost ran into the one that was standing on the bank near an inlet, watching for fish. 

We do have mountain lions but they tend to stay farther out from all the houses. A woman I know who lives far out of town was in her backyard without her glasses on, thought she spotted her neighbor's golden lab and was trying to call "Goldie" over to get petted. The animal ignored her, and when she went back inside her neighbor called and said a mountain lion had just walked through her yard. Goldie was in the house. 

That hackamore looks very interesting and I'd like to try it. I'm wondering if I would get better steering with the flat sided shanks or the narrower ones and a double rein.

Interesting how I've told people to not try a mechanical hackamore saying horses don't like them and they're unclear. I think Horseluvr is correct in saying they are unclear to a green horse. So they might be good for some horses and not good for others, as with all tack.


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## Hondo

My steering tack is for a green rider instead of a green horse. I've read that if pain is induced by a green rider pulling on the reins in a fear/panic/bolting situation it can cause the horse increased fear and run harder further.

There has been a few times that the reins were the only thing that kept me on board. And a few times it didn't. Been a year since anything serious but that is one reason I am afraid to try anything other than a crossover which seems to produce less if any pain by said green rider attempting to stay on.

I'm an experimenter but for now I'll just have to read along with interest.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

I am so jealous of your papillon! I've wanted one for a while, but have enough attention mongering animals lol.


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## tinyliny

boy, I'd make a lot of noise and be careful going through any wooded trail where there was an old 'kill'. Mountain lions are protective of their kills, and like to jump down on you , from above. they do , rarely, attack humans in this way.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> We do have mountain lions but they tend to stay farther out from all the houses. A woman I know who lives far out of town was in her backyard without her glasses on, thought she spotted her neighbor's golden lab and was trying to call "Goldie" over to get petted. The animal ignored her, and when she went back inside her neighbor called and said a mountain lion had just walked through her yard. Goldie was in the house.


I'm glad your neighbor wasn't hurt. We live not far from a National Wildlife Sasnctuary and get occasional sightings. A few years back a neighbor two doors down saw one coming up the canyon behind his house. He ran in to the house to get his shot gun (slug load) but when he came back, it was gone. 

I kid with my husband that anymore, I can really relate to this commercial. My eyes are going bad, but not so much that I need glasses all of the time!


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## gottatrot

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hilarious!!



tinyliny said:


> boy, I'd make a lot of noise and be careful going through any wooded trail where there was an old 'kill'. Mountain lions are protective of their kills, and like to jump down on you , from above. they do , rarely, attack humans in this way.


I agree, this old kill (probably from coyotes or was a stillborn) was on a trail that was through tall grass, not woods and also is only bleached bones by now. Horses seem to have the instinct that it is unsafe to go underneath overhanging rocks. We had a big overhang on a trail I used to ride. I called it "Cougar Drop" and the horses would all go wide around it and look up as we passed. 

@horseluvr2524: I recommend getting a Papillon. The only thing I dislike is the coat (I prefer short hair breeds), but I trim it short in the summer. But they are great and act like big dogs, which is why I got one. Big dog, small package. Always game for a three mile run, super easy to train and not yappy. 

********************************************************************************************************
A short equipment review:
I said I was going to give an update on what I thought about the Thinline pad I bought. This is the one I bought:








It's actually great. I put thin shims in the front, and Halla doesn't seem to get sore behind the shoulders after long rides anymore. It also seems to help relieve some pressure from my feet, maybe absorbing some of the shock that would travel down the stirrup leathers. It is thin enough to not change the fit of my dressage saddle, and also does not pull down onto the withers during the ride.
*********************************************************************************************************
I was thinking about horse travels today and was looking at some pictures. Thought I'd share some info regarding what I learned about horses in Japan on a trip a couple years ago. 
Something I didn't know was that they have some feral horses similar to ones we have in the U.S., but their feral horses are a draft breed. These were on northern Honshu roaming near a lighthouse on the coast.








Something else I didn't know is that their native breed called Dosanko is a gaited pony breed similar to Icelandic horses. This is the horse I rode and gaited on during our visit:








We also visited the Northern Horse Park on Hokkaido. I'd heard online that Japan is not a good place to have horses, and that they are mistreated. We drove past miles of Thoroughbred farms where horses were out grazing in large pastures. At the horse park the horses were eating hay that was at least as nice as what my own horses are fed.
































I watched a riding lesson on Thoroughbreds:


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## gottatrot

*Size of Horse vs. Size of Rider*

My thoughts today are revolving around horse size versus rider size. It is a common topic and common question with people often either stating their height and weight along with the horse's and asking if they are too large, or else showing a picture of them on the horse.

I wish there was an easy way to tell when a rider is too large for a horse. I don't believe there is any magic ratio or anything, but I have experienced and seen others experience serious issues from this problem. Why it matters to me is that it does come up often in my life. 

For many people, putting too heavy of a rider on a horse may make the horse tired or sore. Big deal, so the horse doesn't perform as well or needs a few days off.

My worries are much bigger than that. For instance, Halla slipped at the wrong place at the wrong time with too heavy of a rider on her back. Was she tired from carrying the rider up the hill? We were going down at a walk, but the serious injuries to her knees would have meant I had to put her down if they had gone any deeper, into the joint. Not to mention it could have gone very badly for my friend, the rider.

At Amore's age, was her rider a bit too heavy for a 25 year old horse to carry when she was physically sore? She could easily have killed or paralyzed the rider when she fell down flat at the canter. 

People I know who love horses and would never do anything to harm them have tried working horses too hard for the weight of the rider. Some things like sacroiliac subluxation and tendon strains don't show up right away. So you think the horse is coping fine, but then the horse develops issues that can quickly become chronic. 

I'm trying to figure out what I've learned from these experiences. I think people don't consider temperament when deciding about putting a heavier rider on a horse. It could be one of the most important factors. A horse that will not try to run as fast or will show signs of being tired should be a lot safer with a heavier rider than a horse that tries to keep going regardless. 

I also think how fine-boned a horse is can be important. People say Arabs are often capable of carrying more weight. What I think is that a heavy boned Arab is probably capable of carrying more weight than a horse of similar size. But I'd still be wary of putting a heavy person on a fine-boned Arab unless the riding was going to be slow and the footing safe. 

Going by height/weight ratios, some of the 16.2 hand 1200 lb horses I've seen shouldn't have issue with carrying a 240 lb rider. Yet some of those have difficulty with a 160 lb rider doing hard work. Not difficulty performing, but difficulty with skeletal muscle issues that show up later (not later in life, but after a couple months of riding). Horse age as in older or younger is probably a factor too.

Of course what you are doing with the horse is critical. I would have no problem putting quite heavy people on my horses to walk around in an arena, provided I thought they were going to not fall off. The biggest factors I've seen that can cause harm to horses are hills, uneven footing, long distances and fast speeds. It seems that short sprints are easier to do with extra weight than longer distances. 

I've decided that I will buy a bigger horse next time around, because of the way I ride. I'd rather have more room to play around with. A horse that trips while running free is far more likely to catch herself, and the heavier the rider on board, the more likely the horse will fall. With a larger horse and smaller rider, the horse should get less tired over long distances. Plus I like to have more flexibility about what people can easily ride my horse. I've ridden a 16 hand Arab and I believe that horse could have carried almost anyone. 

I don't believe it's unkind to put a heavier rider on a horse, and I believe there are very few people that are too large to ride at all. But matching the rider to the horse and what the horse will be doing can mean saving the horse and/or rider's life. People seem offended by this type of discretion, at times, and I don't think it should be seen that way. It's not regarding someone being at more than their ideal BMI, but applies whether they're thin and 6'6" tall (someone I did not let ride Amore on a steep, hilly ride) or shorter and rounder. But there are horses that can easily take a 6'6" humans up steep hills, and I just happened to not have that horse available, although my friend did. Percherons are nice riding horses that can accomodate very large riders.

On page 17 of this journal, there is a photo of my friend who rides Nala. She is a thin person but much taller than me. She is also an excellent rider. What I'd love to do is trade off horses going one way down the beach, having her ride Halla while I rode Nala. For the longest time Halla wasn't to the point where it felt safe having anyone else ride her. It wasn't that I thought I was a better rider, but I'd worked out some techniques to deal with some of Halla's tactics and also knew about her flying changes and how to deal with sideways cantering. Now I am positive Halla will be reasonable and a good rider shouldn't get tossed on an average day. 

Obviously I am dying to be the one on Nala when the two horses gallop. But I'm very insecure about whether this would be a good idea or not. If the rider doesn't look ahead well enough and Halla goes over a sand bank or mogul too fast, she's bound to stumble. Would she be able to check herself back up with a heavier rider? 

This rider is not as heavy as the one she had on during her bad fall. Yet I would never forgive myself if the rider was seriously injured or killed because I let her ride Halla and they went down because I could have known the weight was too much. Half of me says don't be stupid, don't risk it, Halla is 20 and has already fallen. The other half says Halla is very powerful, in the best shape of her life, and can handle it. 

I never thought on her bad ride that Halla was struggling at all, even with a 230ish lb rider. She galloped up the hill as if she was carrying a kitten in a saddle bag. She barely sweated and was walking easily when she stumbled, but I saw how she could not throw her weight back up against the downhill slope so went down to her knees.

Reading back over my own criteria, I can probably see what my answer is. Halla does not have the temperament to slow down with a heavier load, the area where we'd ride has tricky footing, and if Nala galloped she'd be going fast too. She is also fine boned. It doesn't feel right to say that I'd like to take your horse out to gallop but you can't gallop mine. This doesn't often come up with Halla because many people recognize the fact that they would not want to try riding her. Nala's rider has been on Halla, in the past. A few years ago when she had another TB we swapped out and cantered up the same trail where Halla had her accident. That was before Halla fell, however, so I did not think about such a thing happening.


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## tinyliny

The well being of the horse always comes before the vanity or sentiment of the rider. 

I
This.makes me think /wonder if I am not more of an issue for my mount than I think I am.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Questions about rider size vs. horse size is always a tough one, because as you point out there are so many things that factor in. 

Just to complicate matters I'll throw this in regarding my daughter's Caspian cross...anatomical differences.

"What made the Caspian horse distinct from any other breed, however, was the shape of its shoulder blade, which is wider at the base than at the top. The Caspian horse also had an extra tooth that it lost by its second birthday. Because the Caspian horse survived in the mountainous regions of ancient Iran, it developed very long, sharply angled hocks and very strong, hard hooves that did not require shoes for protection. Mrs. Firouz also discovered that her Caspian horses reached their adult height at the age of eighteen months instead of the five years required by most other horse breeds so she hoped to breed a large number to ensure their survival."










Being a bit of an archeology buff as a kid, I remember seeing reliefs like this one that looked so disproportionate that it had to be a mistake of the artist's eye. It turns out that the proportions were about right. These little horses actually pulled big heavy chariots with men in them. The spinous processes of the first six thoracic vertebrae are longer than usual in the Caspian horse.

Of interest to you Arab owners out there, the Caspian (aka Khazar Horse) as the oldest know breed of domestic horse that still exists, is believed to be the ancient breed from which the Arabian was developed. Many do indeed look like little Arabians.










I have worried occasionally riding my daughter's little horse (they are atomically horses and not ponies despite their size) as I come close to the allotted weight ratio for him also is the consideration that he is not skeletally mature at only 5 yo. 










(yes, my daughter is kissing her boy through the window screen :wink


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## gottatrot

Tinyliny - You seem very in tune with horses and knowledgeable so I doubt you're missing anything obvious. 

I really like the look of those Caspian horses. I'll have to read more about them. Many pony breeds seem more suitable for carrying heavier weights in relation to their size. I had no qualms about letting my husband ride an Icelandic horse. Look at how thick this guy's neck and legs are. My little mare was built more finely (and had a more vivacious temperament), but she is still a sturdy little horse. These guys were somewhere around 13 hands.


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## Hondo

I think Hondo must have some strains of Icelandic in him! 

I'm wondering if people remember to add the weight of the saddle, saddle blanket, saddle bags, and or pommel bags to the weight of the rider.

Around here where most use heavy roping saddles with saddle bags the saddle and pad can easily weigh in at over 60 pounds. With a 240 pound rider that's 300 pounds!

I first was using one of the ranch's saddles and purchased an endurance saddle for the purpose of losing 30 pounds off my 14HH horse's back. In the meantime Hondo has succeeded in taking 30 pounds off me. So that leaves his "burden" well under the claimed "20% rule".

Thoughts about the horse getting tired or sore from exertion. In my past I was involved in a sport for way too many years requiring a fair amount of exertion that was way too hard on the body. I seldom got tired during an event and seldom if ever had thoughts of slowing on tempering my efforts.

When I was younger, I would find out where the sore spots and possible injuries were a day or two after the event. As I got older, it took an extra day. As I got even older, it took longer. In my fifties, stuff would pop up as long as five days later. Friends reported the same phenomenon.

It would seem that this would be the same for horses. These thoughts would also reflect back to the post on aging horses, with whom I feel a certain affinity.


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## bsms

My only problem with putting limits is when they are arbitrary - XX%, or XXX lbs for all horses.

Cowboy is our 13.0 hand mustang. He has outstanding feet. His legs are as thick as some horses I've met who were over a foot taller, and roughly as thick as Mia's (15.3). He has a short, broad back. If you designed a horse to carry a heavy rider, he'd be it. He also has no desire to be hurt and will balk if he thinks he will be.

I've ridden him when I was 180, using a 30 lb saddle plus some stuff - so maybe 220 lbs on a 650-700 lb horse? That would be around 33%. He could run at a gallop with me on level terrain with good footing, although in a tight turn the difference between my height (5'8" or 17 hands vs 13 hands) made it awkward to balance - too much weight too high above his back. He can walk fine over most terrain with me. But if the footing is very uneven or going up a steep climb or descent, he struggled with his balance. He kept it, but I decided I'd dismount if the terrain got rough. 

I'm now a bit over 160, so about 200 lbs total on him (still about 30%). For walking, and short trots or canters, rolling terrain - he can carry me 2-3 hours without showing any sign of discomfort. If he had to do it every day, however, that might change. As I age, I'm realizing I can do most of what I did at 20, but might need 3 days to recover from it instead of 3 hours. [Note: Hondo, you and I are not alone. I first saw that concept in a book by a competitive runner who stayed competing into his 80s. At 20, he got his best race times training twice a day. At 80, he got his best times by training twice a week.]

My SIL has damage to his back and shoulders (and most of the rest of his body - he's in the hospital starting yesterday thru Monday with pancreas problems) after two infantry tours in Iraq. The pancreas was probably damaged when he became sick and went from 210 to 145 lbs in the field. The rest is just carrying too much weight all day, month after month without a break. That is one of my objections to women in combat. As my ex-USMC oldest daughter points out, it isn't about passing a fitness test on a given day or for a few weeks or even for a few months. It is about having the reserves to keep passing those sorts of demands after months in the field. But I digress... 

The point is that my SIL had no problem with carrying the machine gun, ammo, field gear, plates, etc for a few months. It was doing it daily without a break that tore his body up. I assume the same would be true of a horse. I have no problem with asking Trooper to carry a 6'5" guy for a 3 hour ride in the desert once in a blue moon. It isn't something he can handle daily.








​ 
Trooper, however - you make an excellent point about personality, gottatrot - is the sort who would soldier on in silent pain. Cowboy would balk. Mia would have become very ****y, but wouldn't stop. Bandit was ridden for 10+ miles in relay races and his rider was probably 220-240 lbs...and Bandit is 800 lbs. Bandit would try, but that doesn't mean he won't be a cripple at 15 because of how he was ridden when young. But he is now ridden lightly - at 25% of his weight, but by a rider who is content to walk and jog and believes in slowing down in rough terrain, and never for very long hours.

I'd like to try sitting in a 16" Abetta saddle. Our 15" fits Bandit and weighs 15 lbs, but puts my heels too far back - feel like I'm going to topple over. If a 16" would fit us both, then I'd be happy to use it. They are also "grippy" and low maintenance...


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## egrogan

I think I'm probably at the top of Isabel's weight limit- she's about 850 lbs, 14.2 ish, and I'm about 150 lbs riding in a dressage saddle. She's a Morgan, not one of the fine-boned Saddlebredy ones but still fairly petite. I think I sit her well though, and I'm basically the only person to ride her (occasionally she'll do a kid lesson or pony ride).

That said, this past spring, she came out of winter having dropped weight for the first time in the 5 years that I've known her, and she seemed a little off in her stifle or hocks. We did chiro, x-ray, arthritis supplements, and we never did find a clear physical cause. Occasionally when we rode, it would feel like her back right side fell out from under her. I really struggled with whether I should continue riding her- was my weight too much for her now 22-year-old joints? Should I move her to walk-only rides? As she got back into shape though, the stifle locking up seemed to resolve itself, and she definitely did _not _want to only walk. These days, I pretty much let her pick the speed of our ride when there are opportunities to do more than walk. She almost always asks to move faster. Sometimes I have to hold her back. There may be a point when I do need to consider no longer riding her, or ride her differently. But for now, we still seem to be able to do what we do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

BSMS, so sorry to hear about your SIL...that's terrible! What the hell were his superiors doing letting it get that bad? Shame on them!

My SIL just finished his third, he's 5'6, 28yo and RECON, just came home in June. Already he is looking at taking a teaching position in Ca and getting out of the physical business, he knows his body just can't take it much longer. I agree with you on women in combat, but that is in danger of getting political so I'll steer clear of saying more.


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## gottatrot

Great points, everyone. 

Isabel looks great and very well balanced.

I hadn't thought about it taking longer for muscle soreness to show up in older age. Reading about this, there are some theories:


> -The age-related decrease in muscle size and strength.
> 
> -The age-related decrease in flexibility or range of motion about a joint. This means that when an aging person exercises, damage is more likely to occur in connective tissue surrounding joints and muscles because with age that tissue is less elastic, less lubricated, and less pliable.
> 
> -The age-related decrease in antioxidant and antioxidant agents (enzymes) within most tissues including muscle and connective tissue.
> 
> -The age-related decrease in the inflammatory response within muscle. This means that the appearance of cells to remove damaged cells is compromised with age, thus delaying the repair of muscle and connective tissue.
> 
> -The age-related decrease in muscle protein synthesis (building) rates. This may slow the rebuilding of muscle and connective tissue after training-induced damage.


Recovery | Masters Athlete

I'll add one more I can think of, which is that circulation is often not as good due to stiffening of blood vessels, damaged vessels, etc so it can take longer to move waste products out of muscles and also to circulate/oxygenate the areas that are healing.
This is good to know, for older athletes and older horses. If a horse is sore several days after work, a person might think it was unrelated to the exercise when in reality it is probably still from that last workout.

While it can be ideal to ride horses every day when they're younger, with my over 20 horses I try not to ride hard two days in a row, and keep my rides down to three times a week. I feel that a horse at age 20 is similar to a human in their 50s, and a horse at age 25 is similar to a human in their 70s. So the recovery times and need for hard exercise changes a lot by those ages. 

Something else affecting weight carrying ability is the conformation of the horse. Some of us mentioned the size of the bones and sturdiness of the horse, but also a horse with asymmetry of the hooves or less than straight legs will break down more easily, so probably should be kept in lighter work and asked to carry lighter loads. 

I appreciate all the insights and this will be good to read back through if this topic comes up again. 

I probably know several women who could carry the loads necessary for active combat, but I'm not built tall enough or sturdy enough to carry the loads so I'd break down too if I tried. I have a couple friends that are more like draft horses if I'm like an Arab. We built some stalls together and worked on the roof of their barn. I'd be hanging from the board that I'd inserted into the tongue and groove, trying to get it to drop by using my weight. My friend is about 6', very strong and would just laugh and slam it into place with her fist. Another friend is 6'3" and could carry both our backpacks full of books up the hill to college classes without breathing hard. Women that large are also able to defend themselves better than tiny ones. My husband feels safer about letting me go certain places with my large women friends versus with my small sister.

Speaking of strength: I've been feeding my horses Horseshoer's Secret for several months now. I'm not sure if I recommend feeding the extra Biotin or not...I trimmed hooves today and could barely get the nippers to close using all my strength. It's hot and dry, which makes things worse, but I definitely have much harder hooves than last summer. Nice to have healthy hooves. Nice too if you have a farrier doing that hard work for you.


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## bsms

Just checked, and George Sheehan died at 74, not 80. In my defense, I read his books in the 1980s. However, as he aged, he kept track of his race performances and experimented with different training schedules. As he aged, if he trained too often, his race times went up, not down. 

Now that I've thought about him, I've ordered his posthumous memoir Going the Distance: One Man's Journey to the End of His Life. This forum keeps costing me money in book purchases. But from what I remember of his books, I'm pretty sure George Sheehan would appreciate exploring the world around us, be that in his passion for running or in someone else's passion for horses. We cannot stop age, but we don't have to stagnate!


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## gottatrot

> *BSMS:* We cannot stop age, but we don't have to stagnate!












Reading about Trooper on BSMS' journal makes me think about Maggie. She was a nice mare, well trained, and did not have many problems. She was one of the few horses I've ever ridden that I did not get along with. When I say "did not get along," it is hard to explain. Whenever I ride a horse, I immediately find things I appreciate about them. Always by the time I'm done with a ride, I am wishing I could somehow add this horse to my menagerie of animals. 

For some reason I could not communicate with Maggie. She was dull. I don't mean she wasn't smart, because she was. She also understood and responded to cues. But everything was wooden and robotic. Trying to involve her in the ride or decisions would wake her up a bit, but her response was annoyance. It was as if she wanted to just go along and not think, and then have you break through with a command from time to time. When I got off Maggie after a ride, I didn't feel like I wanted to ride her again. That is so super rare for me, and I have to think there was something about her personality and my personality that just made us not mesh well. Other people did enjoy riding her, because she was easy. And I do appreciate soft and easy horses, so it wasn't that she wasn't challenging enough for me. She was just dull and boring. She'd only wake up for an argument, and then go back into her coma.

As you can see, Maggie is a lovely horse and I always was chastising myself saying, "Why don't you like her?" She ended up being sold on from the place where I rode her since she was a spare horse for someone whose girlfriend never rode, and I hear she is now with someone who appreciates her a lot.

My hackamore arrived today from @*karliejaye*. It looks great and I can't wait to try it out. I had a lovely 7 mile ride using the other mechanical hackamore. 
We didn't ride yesterday because it was too hot. Today was very different and after my ride I went for a 6 mile hike with my husband and brother. Didn't get any photos on the ride, but some of the hike show the atmosphere of the day.
























Your basic Oregon mist along with an obligatory elk herd.


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## Bondre

Beautiful scenery! Is that early morning mist? It all looks so un-summery and fresh and moist


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## karliejaye

Oh that mist is gorgeous! How I miss it. Growing up in the Southern Willamette Valley we had many days where that fog never lifted. Now I am in Central Oregon where the sun shines over 300 days a year and I actually hate it! I need the comfort that the fog provides, feeling wrapped up like a nice blanket.
Can't wait to hear your review on the double rein hackamore!


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## horseluvr2524

The Oregon coast definitely did not disappoint. It was just as stunningly beautiful as all the pictures I have seen.

I am opposite you, Gottatrot. I closely bond with few horses. There are few that I would consider purchasing, few that make me want to take them home at the end of a ride. I fell desperately in love with OTTB TL, and I think most others would too. Shan of course is my baby and always will be. I enjoy riding my mother's horse, Belle, but she doesn't spark the fireworks for me lol. I like most horses, but do I want to take most home? No. And I don't expect a fantastic ride from any new horses I ride either, so when it does happen I am over the moon.

Satin was a blast, but not one I feel that I need to add to the herd lol. Then again, I believe that was my first ride ever on an Arab, lol!


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## Hondo

I understand that possessiveness can be a personality disorder and even a clinical disorder depending on the level or degree of possesiveness.

I don't really want to ride anybody's horse and I definitely don't care about the idea of anybody riding mine.

Now I'm only a little over two years out with riding horses as a passion. So is this not that unusual for a newbie or should I be seeking help? :???:


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## bsms

I've got three, and I ride Bandit 95% of the time. My daughter rarely agrees to ride any horse other than Trooper. My wife prefers Cowboy, although she'll ride Trooper sometimes. She isn't ready to ride Bandit. Bandit, like Mia, wants in involved rider - so my youngest is a poor match for him too!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I understand that possessiveness can be a personality disorder and even a clinical disorder depending on the level or degree of possesiveness.
> 
> I don't really want to ride anybody's horse and I definitely don't care about the idea of anybody riding mine.
> 
> Now I'm only a little over two years out with riding horses as a passion. So is this not that unusual for a newbie or should I be seeking help? :???:



On the one hand I want people to ride Oliver, on the other I don't. A lot of work went into getting him fine tuned to the way I like to ride. I trust my horse, it is the people that I'm iffy with!


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## gottatrot

@Bondre, that mist was actually at about 6 pm. Sometimes the hotter air inland will draw the moisture off the ocean later in the day.

I guess I'd say I'm more protective than possessive. I'd really like anyone to ride my horses, but I don't want anyone to get hurt. That is equally for horses and people. A few years ago some friends and I were training for endurance, and what made sense was for me to let a friend use Halla as her mount while I rode Amore. 

But I got too protective, and I didn't know Halla as well back then so I worried about my friend not being sensitive enough, over stressing Halla physically or over training her. I didn't trust Halla's weight carrying ability over time, or in the saddle that fit my friend. That's how my poor friend ended up conditioning the Paint mare, Maggie, who really was not mentally into going long distances. But for occasional rides, not full on training for months, I trusted this friend to ride Halla any day. 

Hondo, I think you need help. Just kidding, I think it is a common "horse person" personality trait to prefer your own horse and to not want other people to ride your horse. Not pathological at all. :wink:

There can be various reasons for this, including training, not wanting your horse stressed by odd commands, not wanting people to ride your horse too hard, etc. The only reason I don't really understand is the one where people don't want anyone else to ride their horse because it will "ruin the bond." To me riding is like having a conversation, so if you don't want me to talk to your horse that's fine, but it's kind of weird to think that will change anything between the two of you. To me that would be like thinking someone shouldn't pet your dog or take him for a walk, otherwise you will not have the same relationship with your dog as you did before.

Perhaps some wouldn't want another to ride their horse because they don't want to see that their horse can work better for someone else. I actually want to see if my horses will work better for someone else, because then I know they have the ability to do it, and also it means I have something to strive for. I'm always hopeful that someone will discover some great secret they can share with me, something to help my horses out or my riding. 

I don't think I could have more than a couple of horses, because it takes so much time and energy just knowing two so deeply and completely. In that way I am possessive, because once I own an animal, they quickly become family and I can't let them go. I'd work a second job or third job and live on 25 cent ramen before giving up an animal. 

Of course, that doesn't mean everyone is the same way or that it makes me a better horse owner. I'm not sure what I'd have done if I'd ended up with Maggie as my own horse. Thankfully, my two I have are a great fit for me.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> [MENTION=57850]I don't think I could have more than a couple of horses, because it takes so much time and energy just knowing two so deeply and completely. In that way I am possessive, because once I own an animal, they quickly become family and I can't let them go. I'd work a second job or third job and live on 25 cent ramen before giving up an animal.


That is sort of where I am so I guess I'm ok.

And further, I don't mind people petting my dog or giving her treats, if they are good treats. I like for people to like my dog and for my dog to like people. If she wants to hang around other people's camp that have other dogs or kids, that's fine. Glad to see her happy.

And I like people to pet Hondo and like him, and him be friendly to them. But I just do not want others to ride him. Maybe in an arena or round pen just as an analysis for what he knows that I'm not knowledgeable enough to be aware of. 

I know him and he knows me, inside and out. I think the reason I don't want to ride someone else's horse is that the experience would be limited without the little nuances that have been developed between Hondo and I. I have a relationship with him. That would be missing with someone else's horse and the relationship, for me, is a large part of the pleasure in riding.

In your mention of two horses, I'll mention that having two horses has been an eye opening experience for me.

First I have come to fully understand now why a horse should not be alone. I had Hondo in this 60 acre field alone for about three months. I think the rings that developed on his feet were mostly from stress now rather than over feeding him.

It is such a great pleasure to see them grazing side by side, performing mutual grooming, and just hanging. They are rarely over 50 feet apart. And if they lose sight of one another here in the pen/yard they just have to go see if the other is still there and ok.

They are so buddy sour now that I cannot even work on one's feet unless the other is present and in close proximity.

I do not ride with only Hondo anymore. Rimmey goes where we go. And buddy sour comes in handy when negotiating gates or working on trail.

I'm beginning to deepen a bond with Rimmey and develope a little possessiveness (protectiveness?) even though he's not mine (yet, fingers crossed).

So thanks for letting me know I won't need to be spending Hondo's money on a shrink!


----------



## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> The only reason I don't really understand is the one where people don't want anyone else to ride their horse because it will "ruin the bond." To me riding is like having a conversation, so if you don't want me to talk to your horse that's fine, but it's kind of weird to think that will change anything between the two of you. To me that would be like thinking someone shouldn't pet your dog or take him for a walk, otherwise you will not have the same relationship with your dog as you did before.
> 
> Perhaps some wouldn't want another to ride their horse because they don't want to see that their horse can work better for someone else.


This came up recently talking to my husband, who believes that a horse does best being ridden consistently by the same person rather than having two or three regular riders. I have a mixed reaction to this, which I have to admit is because of my own inconsistency or even hypocrisy. I prefer to not have others riding Macarena regularly, yet I would like to ride his horse on occasions without him raising any eyebrows. Lol! That's called wanting to have it both ways. 

In the three years I've had Macarena, she's only had a different rider a mere handful of times. Once my husband (and she behaved perfectly but he never wanted to repeat the experience) and once a novice rider friend who accompanied me when I rode Xena. On that occasion Macarena was perfect too, even when I cantered away from her in a big field. And yet I would hesitate to offer a novice to ride her now, in case she went into nervous mode when she is more challenging to ride. I would hate her to get nervous with a novice on board and for her to scare her rider, which I think could be a spiral of disaster. But maybe I'm being overprotective here? And maybe it would be positive for her to experience different riders? A rather academic question anyway as I don't know anyone who I would want to let ride her - which brings me back to square one. 

I'm not worried about a different rider spoiling my relationship with her - I agree with you that this argument doesn't make sense. I just worry that something could go pearshaped and the situation wouldn't be safe. However, I suspect the relationship issue is what my husband is worrying about when he says a horse does best with just one rider. 



gottatrot said:


> I don't think I could have more than a couple of horses, because it takes so much time and energy just knowing two so deeply and completely. In that way I am possessive, because once I own an animal, they quickly become family and I can't let them go. I'd work a second job or third job and live on 25 cent ramen before giving up an animal.


Yes, I really understand this. There was a time two years ago when we had three horses, all of them my responsibility, and I hated it! Apart from the fact that Macarena was the only one I really liked and related to well, it was just TOO stressful trying to make time for all three of them - and failing.


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## Bondre

Hondo said:


> In your mention of two horses, I'll mention that having two horses has been an eye opening experience for me.
> 
> I do not ride with only Hondo anymore. Rimmey goes where we go. And buddy sour comes in handy when negotiating gates or working on trail.
> 
> I'm beginning to deepen a bond with Rimmey and develope a little possessiveness (protectiveness?) even though he's not mine (yet, fingers crossed).


So now you are THREE! I didn't realise before that Rimmey was a permanent companion - but very pleased for you all that he is!


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## Hondo

Bondre said:


> So now you are THREE! I didn't realise before that Rimmey was a permanent companion - but very pleased for you all that he is!


No, not a permanent companion....yet. But I'm working on it. Met his owner on a road on the ranch the other day with some visitors in her truck. A conversation and introductions ensued during which I also introduced the horses. I said, "This is Rimmey, he USED to be Mary's horse", with a big ole smile. I got a big "WHAT?" in reply to which I chuckled. Then said, "This is Hondo, he used to be Mary's horse too". Which he was before the ranch gave him to me for my birthday Christmas.

I'm training Rimmey purportedly for hauling salt which the cattle on this ranch need badly. But pleasure packing is my really really goal. So we'll see.

I don't think she wants to ride Rimmey anymore and the last guy that rode him about a year ago was not thrilled. But he has settled down so well with me that I have other secret ambitions of being able to switch between him and Hondo on pack rides. I'm finding out that if you just try to understand him and let him know, he starts responding really fast. He will always be a little more hyper than Hondo but he is much less prone to spook although Hondo is sooooo much better than a year ago.

And BTW, I am reading the book you recommended to Gottatrot, The Horse's mind. And it has lead me to ordering The Art Of Horsemanship by Xenophon which is scheduled for delivery next Tuesday.


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## gottatrot

Today Halla and I battled an elk. 

We were going in a loop around the barn property, and were approaching the edge where several houses have yards that back up onto the big, open field where I was riding. Halla became very alert, and I guessed it was due to a new, large box that was sitting in one of the yards, similar to a large air conditioning unit. 
Too late, I realized that she had smelled an elk that neither of us could see until it came charging out of the bushes at us.

It was a large female, and as she rushed at us I turned Halla to face her. I didn't know what else to do, and I hoped facing another large animal might give the elk some pause. The elk did stop, and backed up a step. I waited, hoping she would back off, but she held her ground. After a few moments, I tried turning Halla back to see if we could edge away. 

As soon as Halla was not facing the elk, she charged again so I flipped Halla back around to face her. We tried this several times, and the elk was alarmingly close to where she could almost strike us with her hooves. Not knowing what else to do, I backed a couple of steps quickly to get out of range, hopped off and unclipped Halla's reins as fast as I could. I don't know how, exactly, but somehow Halla and I were a team and she rushed back several steps, turned to give me space, and then stood her ground while I whipped the reins around threateningly and hollered at the elk. 

This finally made the elk spook off, back into the bushes. Halla was quite excited, but acted as though we had won a battle together. She came up, let me hook the reins back on and then I led her off for a ways to make sure we were far away from the elk before I got back on.

We always try to give elk a wide berth, but I am guessing she was laying down and we surprised her. It is getting close to rutting season so they get edgy and more aggressive than usual. I was worried she was going to leap up and attack with her front legs while I was on the horse, and that did not seem like a good place to be. I think getting off made me more predator-like, and also the reins were something the elk did not understand and scared her. 

After our elk incident, we went back to Amore's field and I ponied her behind Halla on another part of the property, far away from the female elk's territory. 

Before riding, I spent some time playing with the two mechanical hackamores I've been trying out on Halla. 
This is identical to the one I got from @*karliejaye*:








It has a very nice, fleece noseband covering the leather.

In the end, I decided the design of the regular english hackamore I've been using works better for us. The "cavalry" style hackamore with the thinner shanks has a lot more play. I tried using different noseband straps to get it more stable, but I couldn't get it quite as stable on the face as the english hackamore. 

I like the idea of using the two reins, but what I found after trying both hackamores and switching back and forth was that the english hackamore seems to simplify things. Using the top rein on the cavalry hackamore did give a clear steering signal. But Halla turned as easily and the cues seemed as clear with the english hackamore as the turning signal with the top rein on the cavalry hackamore.

After customizing the english hackamore some, I was quite happy with it. What I did was take the fleece noseband off the cavalry hackamore and put it on the english one. Something that had been bothering me was that with just a curb chain under the chin, the english hackamore was also a bit sloppy on the face. So instead of putting the chain on the lower slot as in this picture:








I put a leather strap through that slot and made the nose piece snug. I added a fleece cover to that leather chin strap. Then I attached my chain loosely through the upper slot that the cheekpieces attach to. The chain contacts the chin above the leather/fleece chin strap.

What happens with this setup is that I can direct rein and there is no chain contact for turning. The noseband and the wide, flat part of the shanks on the hackamore contact the face and it gives very clear signals to turn. The chain is out of contact until the reins are pulled back with some pressure, and until then the hackamore gives nose pressure only. So there is some ability to balance the horse a bit and give some soft contact, but it can go up from there all the way to hard contact with the curb chain if necessary.

The important thing is that Halla seems to like it and responds very well in it. I guess I don't need the double reins after all.
I was considering taking the scissor clip ends off my reins today, just before we met up with the elk! It sure was nice to be able to grab those reins off and use them as a weapon, and I believe I will keep the scissor clips on after all.


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## egrogan

Wow. Did you ever see the cartoon "She-ra" when you were a kid? Battling elk with your reins and trusty steed seems straight out of that show! Albeit with more appropriate riding clothing, I imagine...


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## Bondre

Sounds pretty scary, although at the time I'm sure you didn't waste energy on fear. Well done to Halla for playing her part so well. You're obviously a good team when you can pull off a feat like that without having to deal with a stroppy horse on one side and an aggressive elk on the other. 

Your story brings to mind a friend of mine when I was a kid, who used to stalk deer in the woods on her pony. She would lie on her pony's neck because like that she could get closer and see the deer better. 

I've never seen an elk - wrong continent - so I don't know if they're a lot bolder than deer. Obviously you didn't want to get closer to the elk - quite the opposite! - but she must have been in quite a confrontational mood if the sight of a close-up human rider wasn't enough to make her turn tail.


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## Hondo

Exclamation! I have been planning to eventually do some riding in an area that has an abundance of elk.

I have always thought of elk as being as spooky as deer. They seem to high tail it at signs of humans. So I'm wondering if you or anyone else has had other similar experiences and what possibilities I should be prepared for, other than Hondo freaking out at the sight of a herd of strange animals.

I have read that LLamas for some reason really seem to spook horses. Do elk spook horses anymore than deer?

Short parallel story. There were some cow dogs from a neighboring ranch hanging around my compound getting into stuff and upsetting the horses so I decided to see if I could chase them off on foot. Hondo was untacked in the field but he joined me, arched his neck as I've never seen him do, and proceeded to prance at the dogs. He came up right beside me for this activity. It was real obvious that he was purposely joining me in my persuit. And it worked.


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## bsms

I once had a summer job in Utah working for the Division of Wildlife. They had tame deer and elk used for eating studies. I didn't do much with them, but spent a few days around each. Since then - and I just realized it has been close to 40 years, which makes me feel very old - I've refused to hunt elk. Hunting deer wouldn't bother me, although I long ago decided it was easier to buy my meat in the store.

The elk were a lot like horses in personality. Very individual, very aware. Curious. They would check things out. It wasn't hard to see how an elk might like a particular human.

The deer were more like sheep. My apologies to any sheep fans, but sheep strike me as pretty stupid. If there is a light on, it is a 7 watt bulb, or no more than 15 watts. Deer are fast and darn strong for their size, but dim. An aggressive buck would scare the daylights out of me. I once had to wrestle a little 70 lb doe to the ground to put some medicine on, and she beat the tar out of me first. But dim.

I have no idea what I'd do in a situation like that. Guess it boils down to an individual's feel, but how much 'feel' does anyone have for dealing with an upset elk? Given the pounding that 70 lb doe gave me, I'd sure hate to go one on one with an elk!

I have seen horses join in with their rider in dealing with dogs. Bandit did that when I dismounted last fall and WE chased a dog away. He isn't fond of dogs, and he would have been willing to chase it into the dog's yard. But once I went after the dog, he joined in so we were going after the dog.

I think that is part of what endears horses to us. A documentary about World War One & the British Cavalry made the point that horses and men bonded strongly together. In a world gone mad, the horse and its rider or driver would cling to each other for sanity. That is the part of riding that I really enjoy, and I think it is what motivates horses too. We obviously have moments when we are far apart, but when Bandit & I are thinking and acting as one, it is an incredible feeling - and I think horses share in that. "_Halla and I battled an elk_" is MY definition of horsemanship. So is "..._he joined me, arched his neck as I've never seen him do, and proceeded..._" - when horse and rider act as one, even when a horse could be expected to take off and save itself.

That, to me, is vastly better than 'my horse knows 37 cues, and I control his body thru 17 different maneuvers'!


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## Hondo

Extremely interesting about the Elk. I have another Google research project.

I had to laugh about the wrestling match with the 70 pound deer. Here's a scene from my wrestling match with a bull under 70 pounds that now sports an ear tag with "harold" written on it. 

Talk about flying feet. But it would have been easier 40 years ago. Poor little guy. He's now a very handsome big guy.


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> My apologies to any sheep fans, but sheep strike me as pretty stupid. If there is a light on, it is a 7 watt bulb, or no more than 15 watts.


I agree with you here. We have had sheep and they are undoubtedly thick. We have a pet lamb - fortunately now weaned and fattening for the freezer - and he was infinitely more stupid and exasperating to hand-rear than the goat kids. Lambs are programmed to do two things as youngsters - follow their mother's legs through thick and thin, and stick their head between said legs whenever they come to a halt. This is a trying habit when you are the lamb's adopted mother! You are always tripping over them. 

If you want to see a really dim looking sheep, check out the Beltex breed. These are obscenely muscular lamb-chops-on-legs, popular in the UK now (lots of them around where my mother lives) and I think they've got to take the prize for their Winnie the Pooh 'I am a bear of very little brain' expression. 

 

Although sometimes they look frankly sinister:



I just can't imagine anyone getting enthusiastic about keeping such horrific livestock.


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## Bondre

Sorry, double posted by mistake.


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## Hondo

While making the third my total of three salt deliveries I had this thought. A little bit skewed maybe, but still about horses and elk.

I read an article about research done on elk's personality types and within the article "Townie" elk were discussed. They hang around within towns that tolerate them for their tourist attraction value. The elk remain in town voluntarily and become rather gentle compared to fully wild elk.

The theory was proposed or suggested that they may choose to stay in town as a means of survival or safety from predators such as wolves and lions which don't come into town much.

The thought struck me while riding, I wonder........could horses have begun hanging around people for the same reason? Because the more dangerous predators tend to avoid humans?

If so, it would be at least a little bit comforting to me as I freely admit it does bother me at least to some degree sometimes that Hondo (and Rimmey) are with me due to confinement. But if horses first sought us out for safety, that makes it at least a little bit all better.

Learning about Canada's urban wildlife ? with elk personality tests | animal-behaviour | Earth Touch News

Edit: PS: I'll wager that sheep were a whole lot smarter before we began eating the smart ones and saving the dumb ones for reproduction. 

Edit2: Here on the ranch where I am staying the wilder more difficult cows and bulls are purposely sold while the most docile and easiest to handle are purposely retained for brood. This just occured to me after Edit #1.


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## gottatrot

@Bondre...those are some creepy sheep!

In my experience, deer are much spookier than elk. They will usually keep running across roads, while elk often stop and ponder so people often hit several elk. I'd think it would be super hard to hit more than one deer. I once had a deer run into the side of my car, so their timing can be a little dodgy.

On my way to work last night, I almost hit a group of elk standing on the road in the dark, had to slam on the brakes extremely hard and came within three inches of a big fella's legs. I'm a little tired of elk right now, and adventure in general. 

Yesterday was a little too much!
First, we tried to get Nala and Halla around three huge parasails unfolded and billowing in the wind and taking up the entire width of the beach. We just tried to get by and get some space as quickly as possible, and I didn't even LOOK at the things, concentrating solely on the place I wanted to be, which was about 200 yards farther on. One billowed up, sending Nala veering into Halla's path, and for some reason I got caught up in watching Nala, and almost forgot to ride my own horse. Nala ducked and leaped right, we avoided her, and so the horses cantered on safely.

Next, my husband, sister, brother and I went on a hike on some cliffs along the ocean. Everything went fine until I took a shortcut between two switch backs, my foot slipped, and I somehow ended up doing a cartwheel down to the lower switch back. I landed on my left knee safely, but my sister thought I was going to keep rolling down the slope and for a second I did too. 

Then, I almost hit the elk in the road.

Finally, at work we found a big Brown Recluse Spider wandering around in the ER. We were thinking, you shouldn't get a Brown Recluse bite IN the hospital!! We caught him and released him back outside.









I might have discovered something helpful for Halla. Yesterday on our ride, I used the customized mechanical hackamore with the fleece noseband. I noticed the fleece caught a lot of the sweat on her face, and she didn't shake her head once until the very end of the ride. Nala's rider and I were joking that she needed a sweat band, and that we should start a new craze for horses: sweat bands!!









After we stopped laughing, I went home and added some fleece to Halla's browband and chin straps, and I might add them to her cheekpieces also if it helps her feel better to have less sweat rolling down her face. Poor horses, they don't have hands to wipe away the sweat trickles like we do, and we don't let them stop galloping to wipe their faces on their front legs either.


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## Zexious

^ o.o Sounds like you had quite an adventurous day!
Aren't those spiders quite poisonous? How do you go about safely catching and relocating it?

Glad you found something that appears to be working for Nala. But I'm curious--she sweats frequently on her face? o,o I don't think I've ever heard of a horse doing that! 
Have you considered clipping it?


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## gottatrot

Zexious said:


> ^ o.o Sounds like you had quite an adventurous day!
> Aren't those spiders quite poisonous? How do you go about safely catching and relocating it?
> 
> Glad you found something that appears to be working for Nala. But I'm curious--she sweats frequently on her face? o,o I don't think I've ever heard of a horse doing that!
> Have you considered clipping it?


We just used a paper cup and piece of cardboard for the spider.  Their bites are very nasty since they cause tissue death.

I think horses tend to sweat in certain places like under the saddle normally, but when it's hot or they work hard, they sweat virtually everywhere just like us. Halla's hair on her face is quite short, so I'm afraid clipping it would just let the sweat roll around more freely. I think sweat on the face is why they teach TBs to have their heads hosed. After a ride in the summer, I'll just hose off Amore's saddle area since I don't work her that hard, but I hose Halla's whole body including the head and face.


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## knightrider

Speaking of horses being confined, my friend, who lives far out in the country in Iowa, used to never confine her horse. It was an older mare, and she grazed contentedly around my friend's house with no fencing, like a dog or cat. My friend started out slowly, watching the mare for 15 minutes or so, and let her go for longer and longer times outside a fence until she just let her live that way. . . .for years.


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## gottatrot

I have to share this beautiful photo of Nala and her rider another friend of ours took on the beach today:








Nala can literally fly.


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## egrogan

^^wow. Just gorgeous all around.


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## gottatrot

Many people seem to really enjoy retirement, and Amore seems to be enjoying retirement as well. Since she's 25 with Cushing's, and showing a few signs of slowing down a bit, I made the decision recently to stop "working" her as I've done for the past 14 years or so and switched over to light, occasional exercise. 

Amore was always fine with work, and capable physically of quite hard work. But I think she enjoys her new role in life better. Perhaps it is the same sometimes for older folks who switch over into the retirement role. 
Instead of work, Amore goes on "outings." As a result, she is quite happy to get out of the pasture for a change in routine, and go have some fun. I felt sorry the other day when I was in a rush to get a quick ride in with Halla, and Amore saw I was putting Halla's halter on from way out in the field. She came running in, but we were already heading out without her. 

It's understandable why she enjoys an outing, usually it goes something like this: get an apple, get a halter on, go stand tied for ten minutes while getting all the itchy spots scratched. Go with Halla out walking for a mile, relax and see the scenery, stop and eat some nice grass. Go back to the barn, get a carrot, go back to the shelter and eat some nice hay. 

Today I ponied Amore behind Halla down to the beach. This was the first time I have ponied a horse all the way down to the beach. I'm either getting braver about ponying or more stupid. 

One thing is very helpful, and this ties in to a conversation we've been having on another thread about using leverage bits vs snaffles. It is much easier to pony a horse when the horse you're riding is in a leverage bit or hackamore. With the shanked hackamore, I was able to ride one handed and using just my pinkie finger I could apply enough pressure to direct rein through turns. I was also able to say with one hand, "Don't blast up the dune today, please walk," to Halla.

Of course, it is far easier to pony a horse in a western saddle, and in my dressage saddle I had to dedicate my right hand to holding the long lead I was using on Amore. There is nothing on a dressage saddle to dally around, so you just have to hold the entire rope.

I was reminded that I am not quite a good enough horseman to pony well, however. My poor horses. Halla stopped suddenly to pee at the top of the dune, and Amore didn't stop right away, got her head up even with Halla's, so I pulled back on her lead rope. Somehow I managed the timing just wrong and ended up knocking the two horses' heads together! There was a loud "thunk" as their skulls collided. Halla would have slaughtered another horse for doing that, but she is so indulgent toward Amore that she merely wrinkled her nose up and moved on.


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## Bondre

I hate ponying other horses! I used to do it quite often as a way of taking them both out to graze when there is grass to be had, but although Macarena is great to pony another horse from, none of the other horses involved have been any good at being ponied lol. I tried ponying Flamenca on two or three occasions last year and swore never to do it again. For the moment I'm keeping to that, although inevitably I'll weaken and give it another go some day. 

Flamenca was just awful as she walks slower than Macarena. She would lag behind so I'd have to let out a lot of rope, and then she would trot to catch up, overtake and try to rip the line out of my hand with her forward momentum. Or she would get a front leg over the rope, and when she has the rope between her front legs she is unstoppable and she knows it. I swear the lagging behind and rapid overtaking was deliberate; she did it three times on the last occasion I ponied her, and got loose twice because she overtook at the canter. I just couldn't gather up the excess rope fast enough to stop her in her tracks - and as you say, with an English saddle there's not a whole lot you can brace against. 

I agree with you that your horse should go well one-handed and be responsive to leg cues, so that when confusing things are happening with another horse on a lead rope they don't get out of hand. I was always impressed with Macarena'a behaviour who would not get phazed by conflicting signals, even when inopportune tugs on the lead from Flamenca would cause me to jerk her reins rudely. It seemed like the green horse was Flamenca and the old expert was Macarena rather than the other way around. 

I'm sure that Amore is far better behaved than that anyway lol. I love your outline of her retirement outings. Sounds like she has a comfortable old age planned!


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## Hondo

I've been ponying Rimmey behind Hondo for a couple of months or so. For the last month it's been about every other day. My last five trips have been with loaded salt boxes.

Rimmy, the horse that was so hyper no one really wanted to ride him, is a dream for ponying behind Hondo. They are buddie in the field and when Hondo moves, Rimmey usually does too. Same with ponying. Seldom is all the slack taken out of the rope before Rimmey starts moving. Hondo stops. Rimmey stops. Sometimes up along side a little, but never ahead.

I'm hoping in about 6 months to be able to switch back and forth between them. Their backs are the same so the saddles could be switched easily.

Being a ranch horse, Hondo is of course trained to neck rein so I was already accustomed to using one hand for the reins. They are split and I did tie a knot in them at first but have found that to be unnecessary.

I read somewhere that a lot of packers just sit on the lead rope when not holding it. (actually under one leg) I didn't particularly find that comfortable or handy.

I have a piece of rope tied around my pommel sort of like a night latch or bucking strap that I use for two scissor clips for holding the reins when Hondo is grazing and holding a lead rope.

I began sliding Rimmey's lead rope through that and looping it back. I would hold two thicknesses of rope so if Rimmey did nudge the rope I'd feel no pull. Plus Hondo would know.

Then I began slipping the lead rope up through the loop from the bottom, then turning or swinging the end of the lead counterclockwise 360 degrees. With that arrangement it takes a bit of a tug to get the lead untwisted and out of there, but a big tug will do it.

So that is how I now travel mostly. Approaching water, or winding through brush, or other obstacles I prefer to hold the lead in my left hand.

I only use a 10 foot lead. That is pretty standard for packing. To me, more would be a nuisance.

I really enjoy ponying, even if only trail riding. (at a walk) It's starting to be second nature "almost". There is a lot more to pay attention to and I carry a mirror in my hip pocket for checking the pack saddle but everything has been going so well it's almost scary.

I'm glad Amore is going to get to enjoy her retirement too.


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## bsms

It is interesting to read about ponying. We'd love to do that, but I don't have the nerve to try.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> It is interesting to read about ponying. We'd love to do that, but I don't have the nerve to try.


I didn't just up and start ponying. I lead Rimmey by hand in the 60 acre field. I lead Hondo and Rimmey together by hand. Then I lead Rimmey while riding Hondo in the 60 acre field while accepting the possibilities that I might have to walk back after Rimmey on foot. It didn't happen.

Before I took Rimmey out in the brush with the boxes, I lead him on foot through 7 foot tall arrow weed and close to low bushes. He was fine. Went close to the fence and bumped. Rimmey said "umphf, better move over".

If something is requiring a lot of nerve to try, maybe try a little less?

That said, almost every single solo ride during my first year was began with much trepidation. Not sure when that went away but now I'm no more worried than getting in my pickup.

And I'm just about there with ponying. Next stop, three day pack trips.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...If something is requiring a lot of nerve to try, maybe try a little less?...


That, friend, ought to be a "sticky" by itself!  Good for horses. Good for humans.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It is interesting to read about ponying. We'd love to do that, but I don't have the nerve to try.


I think ponying is something to try if you have room for error that doesn't include running into cactuses (not being from the desert, I had to look up if it was cactuses or cacti, and the dictionary says either will work - where I live it is fungi). 








Likewise, I try not to pony into anything like this:








I watched a friend ponying on a forest trail and ending up with a horse on each side of a big tree.
@Hondo, you are fortunate to have horses that pony so well together! I end up with problems like @Bondre most of the time. Horses that lag behind or rush forward. I've ponied some and been out with a few people ponying, so I've seen that some horses pick it up more easily than others. We do better in open spaces, that's for sure.


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## Hondo

I need to take some pictures of places we pack through. Much more difficult than the trail pictured. I tried a few different horses in the field with Hondo to see how they got on. I always wanted to try Rimmey but because he was a back up horse in case the main horse had a problem, I shied away. But now that I got the ok to use him, yes, I am lucky.

The first I tried was Clyde. He would stop and jerk the rope out of your hand and he knew how to run with his head stuck out to the side so the lead didn't get stepped on. He'd be back with the herd. I could go back, pick up the lead, and then repeat.

I've had Rimmey on the wrong side of a tree a couple of times. I just dropped the lead, turned around, picked it up, then continued. They are both very calm about that kind of stuff.

Yes, I am very very lucky. I think I mentioned in another post somewhere that when I was practicing with Rimmey in the 60 acre field I would at times just let him follow without a lead rope. And he did. Stayed almost as close as with the lead. They just never get very far apart during the day when just grazing. A perfect match up.

BTW, horses around here know all about catus and you'd have a very difficult time trying to make one run into a cactus!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I’ve had practical uses to pony in two situations. The first is when we were training Caspian for trails. My daughter wasn’t quite ready to ride him completely on her own and just felt better knowing that I had him on a lead should she have problems controlling him (we ride generally in hilly forests). The second was bringing back a horse who had bucked off his rider and then bolted off into the sunset. 

In neither situation did I dally on the horn; too much can go wrong if one of the horses loses their footing and starts to fall or has an absolute freak out moment. I want that option of gaining quick control and as a last resort, letting go of the lead. If you are dallied, it makes that harder and causes delays, interfering with your timing.

The big thing for me as to whether a horse is ready to start ponying another horse is the solidness of response to both seat and leg cues. Good neck reining helps but with a lead rope in one hand having the support of good responses to leg and seat definitely helps especially, in a sticky situation.

In starting out I would also say that it helps if the riding horse is higher ranking than the horse being ponied and that the two of them get along. 

In theory, neither of those things should matter because your horses should know to save the Johnson contests (kicking, biting, pushing out of each other’s “space”) for the pasture games and forego them whenever a human is present, but stuff happens, so make it easy as possible on yourself in the beginning.


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## gottatrot

Tonight we hiked the aptly named Saddle Mountain. 








Thankfully, we were hiking to get out into the fresh air and condition our legs (1600 ft elevation gain, 2.5 mile trail to the top) not to see any spectacular views. Many times when you hike to the top, you see a view like this:








This is the picture I took of our view today: It was all fogged in.









I've been fiddling with the mechanical hackamore, and I'll tell you what I've learned. I put fleece on the noseband and added a leather/fleece covered chin band like this, then put the chain in front of the lower noseband.








Well, first I tried putting fleece over the chain too, but I could tell right away that wasn't going to work. 
What this setup does is transfers most of the initial pressure to the fleece-covered nose band. As the shanks are pulled back, the pressure goes first onto the fleece chin strap. Finally, whatever pressure is left goes onto the chain. This lessens the pressure of the chain considerably. I'm not really sure I had the chain working at all, today on the beach. When I got back I put my fingers underneath and pulled on the shanks, and all I could feel was the fleecy chin strap. Pretty comfy, actually. I am not sure the shanks could actually rotate far enough to get pressure on the chain, due to this setup.

Of course earlier today, before our hike, I went out on Halla alone, and there were kites everywhere, umbrellas, two motorcycles passed right by us (big, loud ones), when we walked past another car with a large family spilling out of it, they looked at the horse and then turned on a super loud, booming stereo. Halla wanted to cruise past everything. She was quite hyper alert, but did not spook at one thing. Still, at times she wanted to canter, my rein pressure just squeezed on that soft, fleecy noseband, and so she did. She was not trying to run off, I honestly think she didn't know I was asking her to slow down more than "a little." 
So we turned some circles and cantered by some things, and did a shortened ride before heading back. 

It's funny because Halla does not appear outwardly concerned about things when Nala is with us, although she_ feels _the same to me through the saddle and reins. I believe she is trying to fool Nala into thinking she is big and brave and tough. When she is alone, she stops pretending and you can see how she really feels. 

The reason I added the chin strap was because I disliked how loose and sloppy the hackamore sits on the face. It seemed like it might bother a horse. I watched a Youtube video on hackamores, and the guy pointed this out, and I picked up on the idea. His hackamore had a strap that went under the face in front of the jowl. But I see in all the photos online that the hackamores sit loose and sloppy, and my attempt to improve on this ended up negating the main effect, so I am going to switch it back to loose and sloppy where it worked much better.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

well, my like button isn't working. ugh.

I haven't been on in a while and came back to see what you had been up to. That was a scary encounter with the elk! That's amazing that Halla stuck with you while loose. One thing I noticed about horses: they can get stupid and cause some bad situations all on their own, but when it really seems to matter, they respond and behave themselves in a manner you never would have expected.

For example, when I was attempting to practice vaulting on bareback many years ago, I somehow threw myself over the other side and landed underneath Shan, between her four legs! I got out quickly, but she never moved an inch. Another time back when Shan and I were both very green, a loose pitbull chased us down the road. It was snapping at her legs and despite being worried by it she continued at a walk while I managed to yell at it and use my best "go home voice", surprisingly it did turn tail and leave.

As for the brown recluse spider, you are much kinder than I am. I would have killed it, probably with the handle of a broom or other object that would keep me far away from it. Don't want to mess around with those things.
I've encountered black widows plenty of times, but they don't scare me as much. Usually they hide during the day or whenever you pass by, and I just leave them be.

I am currently missing the presence of horses in my life XD

Loved that pic of Nala and her rider, by the way!


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## gottatrot

@horseluvr2524, great stories!

I also have to catch up on what everyone is doing.
Just got back from a two week vacation to the desert. I have mentioned before that while my passion is horses, my husband loves to travel. We've been around most of the U.S. but one major site we hadn't been to yet was the Grand Canyon. He's been planning a trip for us all summer. 

We flew into Las Vegas and rented a car, then drove a couple thousand miles to see a lot of amazing things.

-Death Valley 
-Great Basin National Park
-North Grand Canyon
-South Grand Canyon
-Buckskin Gulch
-Bryce Canyon
-Zion National Park
-Antelope Canyon
-Dinosaur Tracks
-Meteor Crater
-Canyon de Chelly
-Valley of the gods
-Monument Valley

I should have asked for some advice from those of you who live in the desert, since I didn't bring along quite enough warm clothing. The temperatures drop sharply as the sun goes down. We had ice on our car in the morning at Bryce Canyon. We walked in the snow at Great Basin. In Death Valley the temperature would fluctuate by 30 degrees in just a few miles as the elevation changed. We did not have as much difficulty with the heat as we thought, and even had a couple of days where it rained quite a bit.

I kept saying that although I don't think I would want to live in the desert, it was amazing to have the opportunity to go and see it. The Southwestern U.S. is stunningly beautiful, and there is so much color and life everywhere you look. Something we had not experienced was going into slot canyons and seeing how the light changes into different colors on the walls. We saw a tarantula, some lizards and a snake. We drove down gravel roads and found some petrified wood and a meteorite (very small). There are many opportunities to see sights you've never seen before and "wonders" as I call them. And you can find utter silence and be truly alone and away from the world. And see more stars than you can see unless you go to other truly remote places such as Hawaii or the outback in Australia. 

There were many tourists from other countries at the more popular sites, with most coming from China, although we saw many Europeans too.
I'll post several photos soon.

Coming home, I am facing somewhat of a moral dilemma. It was a bit sketchy getting together good care for the horses while I was gone. Our barn is mainly self care, although the hay feedings and turnout are done by barn staff. But the staff are other boarders working off their horses' keep, so sometimes lots of people are gone at once and I had to pay three different people and hope they all remembered which days they were doing my horses' care. 

So I'm considering looking around at the full care barns in the area, to see if I should move the horses to one. The biggest dilemma is that I am positive from other searches that none offer complete turnout with shelter as my horses have now. I will look and see if things have changed, but boarding is difficult because it seems that either the facility will be lacking in turnout and other essentials, or else the people will be sketchy. It has been stressful for me in the past to have the horses dependent only on myself for regular turnout during bad weather. Yet so many horses live in these circumstances, maybe it is not so bad. Another big factor making me consider a move is that the scene at my barn has become stressful since it is getting crowded with lots of people and teens that make it hard to just go and relax with my horses. 

It will be difficult for me to leave somewhere I can ride so easily to the beach. But we need to have the ability to leave the horses for several weeks and know they will be cared for. When I got home, the horses acted completely wild, as if no one had handled them at all while I was gone. I know Halla was led in at night to her runout for feeding. But Amore was probably never touched at all. Arabs are such odd horses, I am certain if I'd been gone a month people would think they'd never had any training by then. 
It's not that the horses need to be handled, but it is worrisome to not have anyone looking them over and seeing issues that might come up.

By the way, we saw a wild horse herd grazing on the BLM lands in Nevada. They were too far to get good pictures of. Sadly, we also saw three bodies of horses in that area lying near the road where they'd been hit by cars. They just let them run free range. 

That's my latest scoop, now I'll go read what others have been up to on the forum.


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## Bondre

It sounds like a good trip! Glad to see you around again, and look forward to seeing some pics.


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## Hondo

Wow! That sounds like a whirl wind trip! I've been to most if not all of those places. Back when one could, I climbed to the bottom and up the other side of Meteor Crater. Month in Valley of The Gods exploring cliff dwellings in the area. A month or more on both the North and South Rim, same with Death Valley and on and on.

Great expanses and great places to see and visit.

Glad to see you back. I was wondering.

And I'm betting your horses are sighing big sighs of relief!


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## horseluvr2524

Sounds like an amazing trip! Funny how I lived full time in AZ for so long, and only went to the Grand Canyon once. As for the mustangs, in AZ there are barbed wire fences everywhere alongside the roads. I have yet to see a dead mustang.

I know exactly how you feel about boarding barns. I hate them but don't really have any other choice. I think the "best" barn I was ever at was a small self care, and it was only the best until another lady moved in and was insistent on leaving classical music on 24/7 in the barn, started using my things without asking, and was generally just a sketchy person. Even before she arrived, it wasn't the best situation as there were no trails you could ride to. But I liked it the best because I got to decide how my horses are cared for. I guess I've had too many years being dissatisfied with how others take care of my horses.

I'm not trying to scare you though, sorry! Right now the mares are at an excellent place, and while there are little things here and there that irk me, it is comforting to know Shan is in good hands while I'm away.

Just keep in mind that the vast majority of "full care" boarding barns I've personally been at do not pay attention to the little details when looking at your horse, and may not notice there is something wrong until your horse is really sick.

I personally would be loathe to leave a place that had 24/7 turnout with shelter. But I also understand the stress of being at a barn that is always busy. I wish you luck in finding someplace nice!


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## gottatrot

Just a couple of photos from our recent trip...








The hues of Antelope Canyon.









Fall foliage at Great Basin.









Amazing colors of the desert.

Thank you for the good advice, Horseluvr. I think coming home after a big trip, I was tired and suddenly things I am normally happy with were irritating me. After making a call or two, I realized how good things are at my current barn, and chalked it up to feeling low after the highs of a grand adventure.

It also was draining to think of facing horse chores in storms and darkness of the coming winter. But the reflections were not all bad, since it brought my mind around to wondering why I was doing things the way I was. Before last winter, I had moved Amore up onto the hilltop where she had 24/7 turnout in a big pasture. Several months ago, the barn owner decided the pastures needed some time to rest, so built corrals attached to the pasture shelters that the horses are closed into at night. Meanwhile, Halla goes down the hill at night to the main barn, where she is in a stall with an open runout. My thoughts made me realize that Halla's runout is just a couple feet smaller than the one Amore has up on the hill. Although Amore does not go into the big pasture at night anymore, I had just left her up there, which meant all my chores were split between Halla's area below and Amore's shed above. Up on the hill it is colder in the winter, windier and there is only one small light. Versus the runs attached to the main barn below which has lots of light, close water sources, and is sheltered by trees. 

So tonight I moved Amore down to the large stall with runout next to Halla. Halla really appreciated having Amore come down too. She kept looking over, "Yep, she's really over there." She has a mare in the runout on the other side, but they have a slightly more adversarial relationship. This also means we are on the back side of the barn with just the three runs, and can avoid all the comings and goings of other boarders if I want more peace and quiet. Seems like a good change.

It had been three weeks since I'd ridden. Before our trip we ended up quite busy, and we arrived home to a fall storm with lots of wind and steady rain. Although I planned to ride yesterday, there was no break in the rain at all. For most of the year in Oregon, we plan to ride on rainy days, just waiting for it to lighten up. But there are some days where it just keeps coming down steadily without a pause. 

Today there were only a few scattered showers so we took Halla and Nala out. Since I knew Halla would have lost some conditioning, we only planned for an hour ride. 

As we rode, I remembered some of the reasons why I love fall around here. It was no longer hot, or bright, yet I was comfortable in a tee-shirt. People appreciate bright, and I can see why since it brings out the beautiful colors in the desert and makes the sky appear vastly blue. But coastal people get uncomfortable with brightness that lasts too long. We like grayness; the ability to open your eyes fully and stare at the world without sunglasses on. 

In the fall, after several days of soaking, the sand on the beach loses all the treachery of the summer. In the summer, a fickle wind can arrange the sand lightly over deep holes and hidden pits. The reflection from the bright sun hides other hazards, and sometimes during a gallop we would take a serious stumble more than once. Having your life flash suddenly before your eyes gets old if it happens too often.

There was a time when Halla, after three weeks off would be even more treacherous than summer sand. But those days are gone now, and we had a beautiful ride. The mechanical hackamore still seems to suit her fine. Nala was a tiny bit tricky at first for her rider; although she had been ridden more in the past several weeks than Halla, she did have some time off for rainy weather as well. Halla just galloped over the reliable sand, and there was peace in my heart. What a good gallop forces you to do is to live in the exact moment you're in, for a little while. You can't see far enough ahead to know how far you will go, if the footing will stay good, or if your horse will tire or need a bit of pulling back. But each stride is a moment, and you live it as it happens. It focuses a person, and it is everything you can do right then. Just ride, and be. I guess it's a form of meditation, or medication, for those of us who can't force our brains out of life so easily, and dislike drugs. No harmful side effects, as long as you don't fall off. 

After riding Halla, she was sweaty and I didn't want to hose her now that she has quite a winter coat growing in. It was warm enough, probably mid-60s, so I used a brush and water bucket which did not satisfy me as far as sweat removal goes, but she appreciated very much. 

Then Amore and I went out on a granny ride with Rebel, the old laminitic mare. They walked and grazed and that also was a lovely ride, and a meditative one as well. There is more scenery to see at a slower pace, and it is very relaxing. Nice to spend time with a good friend like Amore.


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## gottatrot

What I love most about horses is their unique and different personalities.

We're having a big storm right now. A cyclone off the coast is hopefully sweeping by and only giving us the reminants of the high winds on shore, with gusts around 70 mph. Higher winds could occur, if it comes in closer. But we've also had quite a lot of rain coming down today, and it's been rainy for several days.

Although the temperature is warm, I thought the horses might appreciate having their rain sheets on tonight. Here's how different my two horses are, although of similar age and the same breed.

When I brought the rain sheet into Amore's stall, she spooked and ran off into her runout. Then she stood with her eyes wildly bugging out, every muscle tensed as I fasted it on her. This horse has had a blanket put on hundreds of times. Once the sheet was on, she relaxed a bit and went back to eating her hay.

Next, I brought the rain sheet into Halla's stall. She came rushing over, stood perfectly still and waited as I put it on her. Then she gave me this seriously reprimanding look, "What took you so long? It's been raining for days." 

I don't believe in anthropomorphism, but I do believe that horses have complex brains similar to our own and that we might be able to figure out how to treat and relate to our horses better by thinking of them based on what we know of human brains. When I say "similar," I mean that their brains also are affected by hormones, endorphins, congenital defects, and other things that make each one unique. We have a fight or flight response just as horses do. We react to pain, boredom, hunger, and other things as horses do.

If horses are unique, as we are, then why do we try to use universal methods to deal with them? People tend to treat horses too much like humans in that they treat them as naughty children, or as trusting children, but then they don't treat them enough like humans in that they don't take into consideration their motivations or personality.

I was thinking of flooding, a technique we were discussing on another thread. It was something I tried with Amore, to see if I could make her safer and less spooky. 

Amore is such an individual, and some would say there is "something wrong" with her brain. I've learned in the past few years that although we think of psychological problems in humans as relating to those who are literally in a state of psychosis, there is a continuum of how brains work that includes a wide range of what might be psychotic in an extreme, but can be also considered normal. Meaning, many people have tendencies toward paranoia without being psychotic. Many people have a tendency to be overly detail oriented, rule following and patterned without being obsessive compulsive to the point where they don't function well. People might have low mood or high mood, low energy or high energy without ranging into psychotic mania or depression. 

I think horses are the same, and their brains are the same. We might not like dealing with all these varieties of personalities, but I feel a horse's personality is probably the most important factor we need to know when handling and training them.

Amore, although I consider her "normal," does not retain memories of what is safe and what is unsafe very well. If she were a person, she'd be a very sweet but very neurotic lady who probably would take the bus instead of drive, would stay inside during storms, and would jump every time someone spoke to her out of the blue. What I've done is take this neurotic little lady who would rather sit home in her apartment eating the same meal each day, and brought her to big sporting events and out hiking in the dark woods with wild animals around. Instead of being disappointed that my mare is still spooky at 25, I'm impressed she has done things that are so far removed from her nature. But I know she will always be a very spooky horse, no matter how many things I expose her to. I am certain the wrong handling would have made her too neurotic to handle, but her training has made her a horse that I can ride out in most situations. 

Halla is more like someone who needs structure and rules. She really should have been in the military. Even with something like separation anxiety, the reasoning behind it is different for different horses. Halla is not afraid to be alone. She just wants to know what the rules are. She also feels very responsible for other horses. So if I upset the normal routine and bring both horses down in the middle of the day to see the vet, she gets distressed. "I don't know what the rules are! Amore doesn't know what the rules are! How do I know if we're following the rules?" 
If the vet were to come at 3 p.m. three days in a row, and the horses were put into a stall and given shots, Halla would be a pro at it by the 3rd day. Amore would still be confused. 

If we do something a certain way, Halla will become very solid with it. Unlike Amore, she only needs to be exposed to things a time or two before she understands they are not dangerous. With exposure, she grows very bold. She even carries other horses like Nala with her, showing them there is nothing to fear. Yet if you change things so they are "not the way it is done," this upsets Halla very much. 

I enjoy learning horses, and finding out what makes them tick.


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## Hondo

When first at the ranch when I was penning and feeding 23 horses night and morning I was asking zillions of questions. Many times the answer was simply, "All horses are different". At the end of one month, it was very clear to me that each and every one of the 23 horses had very unique and different personalities. As different as any classroom full kids I ever faced.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo started a great thread and there are a couple of quotes I want to keep and remember so I'm putting them in my journal. I know we've been going far afield of his original topic, but all of it has been interesting.



> * @Hondo*: As far as upping the anti in ask tell demand, I have no problem as long as it is clearly understood the upper limit of demand falls short of causing and fear or diminished trust in the trainer.
> 
> Unless that is clearly spelled out in a discussion of ask tell demand, I shall always state a refusal to demand in hopes that the large percentage that seems to think there is no limit until compliance is begins to understand the limit.
> Anytime I read or hear ask tell demand without the limit stated, I read it as no limit.
> 
> Now you may think it's redundant to keep qualifying the ask-tell-demand. But is it anymore redundant that saying ask-tell-demand?
> If fact, if there is any reason at all to mention the concept of ask-tell-demand, there is just as much reason to explain what it means and doesn't mean. If the audience already knows, then no use to mention ask-tell-demand at all.
> 
> I would lay small odds for a small amount of change, as that's all I have, that the primary reason for failure among new horse owners is an effort to enforce ask-tell-demand without knowing anymore about it.
> 
> This is what I firmly believe. I might be wrong but I doubt it.


Interesting concepts of horse training being discussed. One was that you always start with the lightest possible cue, then get heavier until the horse responds. I've heard that, along with ask-tell-demand and another thought similar to "use as little as it takes, but as much as it takes." 

Somehow, the horses and I have always gone about this backwards. I remember in the beginning, when I was first starting Amore that I tried to begin lightly and then work toward heavier cues. I tried to ask, tell, demand. It might be just me, but it didn't work for us. It hasn't worked well for me with other horses either. 

What I've seen is the horse doesn't understand, the horse doesn't know you what you are asking, and so doesn't pay attention enough to notice what the lightest cue is. So what I do is rather than ramp up, I ramp down. My goal is that a horse moves to the left when I turn my head and look left from the saddle. To teach a horse, I don't start with that at all. Instead, I start by taking a rein and very clearly and solidly pulling the horse's head in one direction. When the horse does it, a quick release. My first teaching cues are always much stronger than any cue I will end up with. Starting with the most strong takes "demand" out of the equation. It even takes out "tell." This is -R teaching, I am aware, but it is also 100% clear to the horse. Move your head over when someone pulls a rein. 

So my method is actually teach the cue and response, then when the horse knows what you want, work on getting less and less pressure until the pre-signals such as a change in weight from turning your head and how your legs sit will actually tell the horse to turn. It's the opposite of ask-tell-demand because it goes softer instead of harder.

In what situation we would ever need to use ask-tell-demand, I'm not sure. Why is the horse not responding to the "ask?" That's what I want to know. If the horse doesn't understand what we are asking, then getting rougher isn't going to help him understand. If the horse can't listen due to emotional distress or fear, getting rougher isn't going to help the situation but may put him over the edge into fight or flight mode. To me, "Demand" is not the same as having to pull hard on the reins in emergency, or a fast and hard reroute. The horse can't hear things that are too quiet in some situations, due to adrenaline, so these can feel as gentle as "ask" in others. 

But horses don't just ignore our "ask," unless they either don't understand what it means, or feel incapable or disinclined to do what we ask. So I don't think demand or even tell are options. Instead we need to know why the horse is incapable or disinclined. Disinclined does not require a negative approach, in my book, but rather something positive to make the horse inclined.

Another good quote from @bsms:


> * @bsms:* A horse who isn't afraid in an arena cannot learn confidence about the real world in an arena. A horse can stop with a feather in the arena yet be very strong in the real world - because the horse WANTS something, and it is the horse's mind that controls the horse's body. Not a bit. Not a whip. Not stopping beautifully 783 times in a arena when the horse doesn't feel like doing anything other than stopping anyways.
> 
> Body control, for some horses, does not and will not exist. If the horse understand that he (or she) has feet on the ground, and you do not, then the horse knows full well that she is the final arbiter of where you go. The horse's mind controls the horse's body. We can influence the horse's mind, which then controls the body. We can create a habit of obedience, which MAY bypass the horse's conscious thoughts briefly. But the horse controls his own body.
> 
> "so that his shoulder and ribs are away from the traffic, nose tipped towards. Only way he can then spook, is away from that traffic"
> 
> You haven't met my horses. And you may not want to, since they all retain control of their bodies and can go pretty much any direction they wish to go, if they wish to hard enough. I've done spooks forwards, backwards, sideways, spinning, jumping sideways. I've never had a horse buck while spooking, but a friend experienced it on Bandit. I've had the poleys of my Australian saddle bruise my thighs from the spins. Backwards is the worst, IMHO. I hated those!
> 
> That is why I concluded I needed to ride the mind, not the body. If the mind is with me, I'm in good shape. When we are a team, he will use his body to help us. When we are not a team...then maybe he will loan me his body anyways, or maybe he'll take it back. But only the horse controls his body. People say, "Ask, Tell, Demand" - but if the horse decides to give the Middle Hoof Salute, he may shove your "demand" up your backside. Just depends on how bad he wants to do so...


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## horseluvr2524

I glanced briefly at the thread as I skipped my way around HF to your journal. LOL. I'm feeling rather descriptive, but I was reading Christopher Paolini's "Eragon" and it can do that to you.

I have always said that I "ask-demand", but the demand is different for different horses. Then after reading how you (gottatrot) simply immediately give the strongest cue necessary for the desired response, I realized that I do the same.

What I learned in my personal experience is that horses never remember the three step "ask-tell-demand". By the time you get to demand the horse has forgotten ask. So I ask-demand, but as I stated the demand is different for different horses. It is never so severe as to cause the horse to lose trust in me.

I'll take you on a short ride with the two horses I have ridden most. I am riding around the arena at walk, and now I am going to cue for a trot:

Belle, ranch trained and raised QH mare, more gelding than mare temperament:
_Ask_-I barely squeeze my calves against her and ever so slightly shift my weight forward and up off my seat bones.
Belle is feeling lazy and decides she doesn't feel much like trotting right now.
_Demand_-I tap her with my heels. Literally tap, equivalent to what I have seen some people do to lightly cue their horses. This is the demand for her, I never need more.
Her response is to immediately launch into a trot. To her that heel tap means business!

Shan, captive bred mustang mare, I trained her myself. Extremely willful and headstrong, but also tries very hard:
Ask-A fairly strong squeeze of the calves, or a tap of the heel. Again, I "lighten my seat" and apply other subconscious weight cues.
Shan deliberately slows down, letting me know that she heard me but she doesn't think I want it enough.
Demand-This is dependent on what I have on me. Spurs, just a touch is necessary. Split reins or crop, a solid smack. No matter how hard you thump this horse in the side with your heel, she ignores you, so I never do that (anymore).
Her response to the demand is usually a descent transition. If she is sluggish about it I make both of us redo it.

Both of these horses normally go at ask. I was just exemplifying how my negative reinforcement works.

My goal is to be as light as possible, but as forceful as necessary. That's really my whole philosophy with horses. It comes from having learned and watched and somewhat physically immersed myself (through liberty work in a small herd) into how horses communicate with one another.

Respect does have just a hint of fear in it. For example, a young horse bounds up and tests the alpha mare. Typically she responds with pinned ears and bared teeth or a lifted leg as a warning. Should the horse persist, she plants one on him. From now on, he respects her, because he knows what will happen if he does not. Similarly to how one might say they treat a rattlesnake with respect, because of what can happen if they do not. "This person/creature/thing has power and commands respect because of it."

This does not make me a brute for having this philosophy, despite what some might think. I still treat horses with the same respect that I want them to give me. I am fair to them and able to recognize when I've been wrong usually seconds after the fact and yes, I literally apologize to the horse while calming them down. I've never had one hold a grudge against me for it, lol. I simply understand how they and most other animals understand the balance of power/pecking order/social hierarchy or whatever you prefer to call it.

I wish it was all unicorns and rainbows and I never needed to discipline or negatively reinforce my horse. I wish the horses would always comply when asked... then again, actually I don't. That is part of the fun of working with horses is having a partnership with an animal that has their own opinions and their own mind and learning to compromise and develop unspoken rules between the two. 

I hope you don't mind my essay in your journal, lol. I'm glad I got to write it though, it got me to realize that I actually do in fact enjoy having a horse that will challenge me. Somehow I feel that the horse that is the most challenging is also the one that is the most willing and trusting once they understand you and trust you and you have learned together. They would charge into battle with you without a second thought and always listen when it really matters. Just like Halla and you battling off the elk.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> My goal is to be as light as possible, but as forceful as necessary. That's really my whole philosophy with horses. It comes from having learned and watched and somewhat physically immersed myself (through liberty work in a small herd) into how horses communicate with one another.
> 
> ...I wish it was all unicorns and rainbows and I never needed to discipline or negatively reinforce my horse. I wish the horses would always comply when asked... then again, actually I don't. That is part of the fun of working with horses is having a partnership with an animal that has their own opinions and their own mind and learning to compromise and develop unspoken rules between the two.


I agree, except I also agree with @Hondo that there must be a limit. When we say "demand," or "as forceful as necessary," we consider this as compassionate horsemen who have limits and will not cause a horse harm. As Hondo says, when we say this we should add a caveat because we care about beginner's horses, we care about the horses whose owners fear 1,000 lb animals and begin to feel that any force is justifiable. So as forceful as necessary - but as they say in the medical field the cardinal rule is "first do no harm.' 

It brings to mind our discussions at my work about how we can have violent, yet fragile older humans with dementia and although we know they are trying to harm us, hit us and bite us we care most that we don't break their bones or let them fall. Those without compassion say, "First I save myself," but I believe the brain with the broadest view of the world and all the consequences bears the most responsibility. 

With humans and horses, there is always a way to be humane and not cruel. Even if this means with truly dangerous situations that we must rely on chemical sedation or restraint in order to get the horse the care they need. Better to go for a needle than a chain in my book.


horseluvr2524 said:


> Ask-A fairly strong squeeze of the calves, or a tap of the heel. Again, I "lighten my seat" and apply other subconscious weight cues.
> Shan deliberately slows down, letting me know that she heard me but she doesn't think I want it enough.


I haven't yet looked at thread on horse "honesty," but it sounds entertaining. 

Oh, I think horses are honest all right. I think when most people think of an "honest" horse, they think of one with an open, labrador type temperament. "What do you want, boss? What can I do, boss?"
I've met horses like that. They are sweet. Some might have slightly lower IQs than other horses.

Something I was thinking about today is that I don't think anyone can tell Halla, and I am positive they can't demand. We never, ever get past ask. I ask, and I know, and she knows, _and she knows that I know_ that it is only because of her_ incredibly benevolent_ nature (in her opinion) that she ever listens to me. But to me, that is the beauty of our relationship. This horse truly believes that she never has to listen to anyone if she doesn't want to. Yet every ride she chooses to listen to me. 

But due to these qualities she has, I only ever ask her to do things. She gallops off and knows I cannot stop her. I ask, and ask, and she slows down. I ask, and ask, and she stops. I have to request every single thing during each ride, because if I don't ask she will do whatever the hay she wants. That's just her nature. She requires that you ask her to keep a lid on it, or else she will NOT.

***********************************************************************
We went for an 8 mile ride today with Nala. The horses had not been ridden in a week due to inclement weather. When I say inclement, I mean my managers were calling to see if I was able to make it to work or would I need a ride? A tornado hit a town just south of us, trees fell down around us and some places flooded, typical winter weather but it's still only fall. 

We headed down the beach into a bracing headwind. Probably sustained wind was about 30 mph. The sand was packed hard and if it was a racetrack it would have been described as fast. The horses had pent up energy. We let them out a little...or tried. Halla took off like a freight train. She feels like riding a freight train; not a smooth, sleek bullet train but a rattling, banging, jolting back and forth freight train. 

After flying about a mile, I asked Halla if we could slow down. She said "What?" I asked again. She said "Did you say something?" I asked again. Is she dishonest? Nah. 
I don't know the right word to describe what she is. Self-possessed? Pompous? Something that is at once proud but magnanimous but also self-protective. Her interests matter and must be respected.

She slowed down to a nice canter. The horses went so fast I had a hit of endorphins. My legs wobbled a little; not getting enough galloping in for legs of steel. 

We went off the beach through the neighborhoods and sandy trail to get out of the wind for a bit. At the end of the trail near the estuary the winds were even stronger. Nala was pointing due west in front of us and her mane and tail were pointing due north. 

Turning north, the wind was now strongly behind us. In 8 miles we saw six people on the beach, the die-hards. It was a glorious day to ride. Nala was burning. The changes in pressure from the storm, different routine, not enough exercise and too much standing out of the rain under her shelter all were built up inside. Her rider released the reins and she exploded forward. Normally she stretches out, long and extended. Today she looked so comical, but only Halla and I were there to see it and laugh. Her legs were trying to go faster than they could, and her gallop was a mad scramble of insanity. 

Nala went one way around the giant bald eagle sitting on the knobby driftwood and Halla went the other. Halla was not insane with energy, she'd blasted it away during our first gallop. We settled into a lovely stride, and watched Nala disappear in several seconds. I am fairly sure with the tail wind and the very hard sand she beat all her previous speed records. 

It took us several minutes to catch Nala. She'd run extra far because her sign had blown down. There had been a sign about birds nesting in the dunes that Nala somehow decided months ago was her finish line, and always stopped running there. But the winds had torn it away so Nala didn't know where to stop. I'm guessing it was when Halla disappeared completely out of her view behind. Obviously Nala's rider had to wait for Nala to decide when the run was over, she was feeling that wild. 
Nala is prone to such brief lapses of insanity that her mild snaffle seems safe enough. Her intentions are much more labrador like than Halla's.

The ride back home was controlled, the horses were quite sane, and I don't think either of them spooked once the whole ride. Halla still had extra energy at the end and was baiting Nala to take off by pretending she was going to trot off with her front legs and thrusting her neck forward. Nala was utterly calm and peaceful, so ignored the game. 

I guess it was unicorns and rainbows after all.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think we have a responsibility to our horses to train them into the softest cues we can efficiently ride and the horse can understand. 

The net result is that what is "demand" to a dead sided or hard mouthed horse is very different than what it is to a horse trained to very soft cues. 

Not everyone can ride that way though. 

As for an "Honest" horse; to me an honest horse is one that communicates the good, bad and ugly. If they don't like something I am doing (like kicking instead of pressing) they communicate that to the rider in a constant feedback loop. 

In contrast a dishonest horse is going to tell you nothing until they have reached the end of their patience and suddenly do something rash and unexpected. 

Ironically, I believe it isn't so much about the horse as whether or not the rider allows the horse to communicate or shuts them out.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> *In contrast a dishonest horse is going to tell you nothing until they have reached the end of their patience and suddenly do something rash and unexpected.
> *
> Ironically, I believe it isn't so much about the horse as whether or not the rider allows the horse to communicate or shuts them out.


What's the difference between being dishonest and protesting when you are finally pushed too far? 

There are people like this, they are not dishonest but they aren't going to make a big deal about something until they've reached the end of their rope.

And as you say, how many horses have people who don't listen so they stop communicating. Is this dishonesty?

I do believe in an "honest" horse, meaning one that has an open temperament that you can read easily. An open book horse. In that way, I like the term. But I'd not be able to say I'd met a dishonest horse. What did he do, pass himself off as a mare? 

What's the difference between being dishonest and being unpredictable because you change your mind suddenly? 
What's the difference between being dishonest and playing tricks?

It seems that many animals naturally play tricks. I read about a dog that would put his bone just outside of the range where another dog's chain would reach, then sit and watch as the other dog tried in vain to get at it. I've seen cats and birds play tricks. Horses play tricks too. 

When I offered a horse an apple, he bit my hand and I dropped the apple right into his feed bin. He grabbed it and ran away. He was playing a trick on me. If I were smart enough, I wouldn't fall for the trick. I was obviously not his first victim. 

There's the classic horse trick where two horses are running and one slows down, pretending that he's going to stop so the other horse will slow down too. Then he darts forward so he is in front. 
Another trick is to stretch the neck down and then use the longer reins to run faster. 
Ponies are great trick players. They'll go under low hanging trees, get down and roll, swipe kids off on the side of a barn. 

Dishonesty seems negative. A tricky horse is smart and interactive with life.
Sometimes their tricks are not helpful and we have to figure out how to get them not to play these tricks on us.

I don't equate unpredictability with dishonesty either. 

I wouldn't call Amore dishonest, and she often does things very rash and unexpected. But it wasn't that she was hiding her feelings (she seems fairly incapable of this), or wasn't communicating. It was that she didn't have a tolerance for pressure (mental or physical) that was 12 seconds long, but it was only 0.12 seconds long. I don't think she knows what she is going to do until right before she does it. She changes her mind very quickly, and she also acts on thoughts very quickly. She is impulsive and doesn't think things through. 

Halla is more predictable, very much a trick player and tricky minded, but still honest. If she's going to bite you, she will tell you first. Unless you were to cross a very big line that meant she had the right to bite you without telling you. Then I'm sure she'd give you no warning, and be very honest about letting that you know she had every right to do that.


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## bsms

If we use "Ask, Tell, Demand", then aren't WE the dishonest ones? If the horse cannot say "No", then have we asked anything, or merely demanded lightly? If the Godfather makes you can offer you cannot refuse, does it matter if he asks softly first?

Suppose one used "Ask, Tell, Listen". 

In a standard lesson, "listen" might mean hearing, "_I've trotted this circle 847 times in the last 3 days and gone nowhere. I see no purpose in it!_" 

We would then call the horse dishonest, and DEMAND. And if we did not demand, the lesson would come to a halt. So our lesson becomes a lesson in "Ask, Tell, Demand" and we learn to lie to the horse. And if you want to become a good horseman, you take a LOT of these lessons, and learn how to be the horse's Godfather...

Or maybe I get cynical when it is 3 AM and I'm up because allergies won't allow me to sleep.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The difference between being dishonest and finally having enough is communication. Honest and dishonest is less of a definition of a concrete behavior and more of a human construct. Still at least around here that is how the definition gets used.

Oliver has had one blow up. I asked my trainer (the victim) if he thought Oliver was a dishonest horse. He said no, because in retrospect Oliver was telling him for weeks that he was being pushed too fast, through a series of small resistances, but he (trainer) wasn't listening. Oliver had finally had enough and decided to buy a great big billboard and spell it out in capital letters for him. 

What people here call a dishonest horse is that nice calm "children's horse" that was sold to that beginner family up the way. The horse gives off signals that little Suzy's hands yanking in his mouth constantly is really getting annoying but the horse bites the bullet and does what Suzie wants anyway....they never see it coming because the horse is "obedient", even though to a trained eye, they are obedient with the warmth of a tiger. Old Fuzzy just blows one day and throws a bucking fit that does a rodeo proud.

Don't see a whole lot of difference between Oliver and Fuzzy other than one is showing displeasure through disobedience and the other is not? 

Neither do I. In short, IMO as much as we would like to believe otherwise, there are no dishonest horses, only humans who cannot read them or choose to ignore what the horse is telling them.....Honest and dishonest are human constructs.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> Something I was thinking about today is that I don't think anyone can tell Halla, and I am positive they can't demand. We never, ever get past ask. I ask, and I know, and she knows, _and she knows that I know_ that it is only because of her_ incredibly benevolent_ nature (in her opinion) that she ever listens to me. But to me, that is the beauty of our relationship. This horse truly believes that she never has to listen to anyone if she doesn't want to. Yet every ride she chooses to listen to me.
> 
> But due to these qualities she has, I only ever ask her to do things. She gallops off and knows I cannot stop her. I ask, and ask, and she slows down. I ask, and ask, and she stops. I have to request every single thing during each ride, because if I don't ask she will do whatever the hay she wants. That's just her nature. She requires that you ask her to keep a lid on it, or else she will NOT.


I have never ridden a horse quite like Halla, but I have an inkling of what you are talking about. There have been times on a horse where the horse is so tense that I can positively feel that if I push my will on him he will explode in one way or another. So all I can do is very gently coax him, and in about 75% of those situations I am able to get the horse moving along without any explosions. The rest of the time, I just try to hang on and diffuse the situation as quickly as possible :lol:


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> If we use "Ask, Tell, Demand", then aren't WE the dishonest ones? If the horse cannot say "No", then have we asked anything, or merely demanded lightly? If the Godfather makes you can offer you cannot refuse, does it matter if he asks softly first?
> 
> Suppose one used "Ask, Tell, Listen".
> 
> In a standard lesson, "listen" might mean hearing, "_I've trotted this circle 847 times in the last 3 days and gone nowhere. I see no purpose in it!_"
> 
> We would then call the horse dishonest, and DEMAND. And if we did not demand, the lesson would come to a halt. So our lesson becomes a lesson in "Ask, Tell, Demand" and we learn to lie to the horse. And if you want to become a good horseman, you take a LOT of these lessons, and learn how to be the horse's Godfather...
> 
> Or maybe I get cynical when it is 3 AM and I'm up because allergies won't allow me to sleep.


:lol: yes it would make more sense as 'tell-demand' in the normal process, not really any asking.

One thing that can't be taught, or rather is so difficult to teach it is never touched on or thought of by the human teacher, is to listen to the horse. That phrase in the way I use it also falls in with 'knowing your horse'. Its something only the horse can teach you. I don't know what to call it except "horse sense", lol. Being able to feel what your horse is thinking, or trying to tell you, and deciding from there what course of action to take, or asking the horse to decide what action to take.

Personally, I prefer to get the horse to be consistently listening and trusting me first. Then when we know each other better I start paying more attention to his opinion on matters. This is the reason I always get to know the horse in the arena in a relatively controlled environment. I get a feel for their mind and personality, so that I can better be able to listen when we are out on the trail.

Then I have an easier time discerning whether the horse really does see a rattlesnake in that bush or if he's just barn sour and spooking his way out of work. I have met some horses that spook constantly, all the time. Its just in their nature. What's worse is the ones that balk every time they spook. I like to keep moving forward, so its OK if they are afraid and dance sideways or run ahead a bit, I won't "demand" on them over that. But balking constantly is definitely something I don't tolerate.

Well, that post was a bit all over the place. Oh well :wink:


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## horseluvr2524

I think what most people believe is that a dishonest horse is one that plays tricks.

However, I honestly believe that all animals are honest :wink:


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> If we use "Ask, Tell, Demand", then aren't WE the dishonest ones? If the horse cannot say "No", then have we asked anything, or merely demanded lightly? If the Godfather makes you can offer you cannot refuse, does it matter if he asks softly first?


I think this deserves to be a quote of the week.


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## gottatrot

> If the Godfather makes you can offer you cannot refuse, does it matter if he asks softly first?


I love it.









Amore has been very much herself for the past couple of days.

Yesterday, I led her up to her pen and slipped her halter off. She was one step away from the open doorway, facing toward her hay net, it was dinner time, and she was focused on the food. What would go wrong? I do this sometimes, let the horse go when they are right at the open gate since they know the routine of heading in to eat. Halla and Rebel were already in their pens. Same old routine.

A slight sound as Amore stepped forward caused her to veer of course by one inch, which somehow allowed her to miss her doorway and head around the side of the barn. Bright green grass caught her eye, so she stopped to graze. 
"Amore," I said. This startled her, so she lifted her head, saw a goat and ran off around the other side of the barn. Fine, I was sure she'd think about her hay and head back to her pen.

I walked around the edge but didn't see her. I looked in the barn but didn't see her in the aisleway. "She went in the barn," my fellow boarder told me. I went in and found Amore in the back, in an empty stall. A couple years ago she had been put in this stall at night for a couple months. She was in there looking very lost and confused. There was no food in there for her. 

After leading Amore back to her pen, she ran in and found her hay net. She was especially pleased about being in her own stall after having been so lost.

Tonight I was trimming horse hooves, although I really wanted to ride instead. Sigh. Halla was tied and I was letting Amore graze nearby with her lead rope over her back. Some of you might have seen the thread about teaching horses to think. Supposedly if you let horses roam with their lead rope on, it teaches them how to respond appropriately. Amore has never been able to learn this lesson, and each time she steps on her lead she panics. As I was trimming Halla, I saw Amore's lead come down but she seemed to avoid stepping on it for a bit. 








*Halla's sandy hoof*​Glancing up, I saw Amore step on her lead. Suddenly, all of her body parts flew in multiple directions except she managed to keep the one leg in place that was standing on her lead. The clip broke, lead rope fell off, Amore stood for a second, "Oh!" and then went back to grazing. Halla did not blink. I kept trimming. Every horse that has been around Amore for more than a few days stops reacting to what she does. They soon figure out she is an odd one. 

It started raining so I moved the horses and stuff into the aisleway of the barn. I tied Amore outside a stall that had an open doorway. Two feet of lead loose, a bucket securely on a chest nearby...I thought about the bucket and the open doorway, but didn't think Amore could get into too much trouble on a short tie.

Working on Halla's feet some more. Bang! The bucket rattled away. Amore spooked backward around the corner so her butt was inside the stall and her head out. She was stuck there, unable to figure out how to move and get back out of the stall since her lead was now taut. She stood there as though tied that way, looking very confused. I kept trimming. Halla never blinked. 

A couple minutes later, a horse in the barn rustled. Amore spooked and fell down the two inch step that went into the stall, stumbled and then ended up standing nearly where she'd started with her tail flipped around up over her back. She still looked confused. I was done trimming by now, so gave the horses each a carrot and put them into their pens for the night. 
*****************************************************************
Halla is a very odd horse and demonstrates how using a body condition score chart is not always straight forward. 
http://www.hygain.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Body-Condition-Scoring-Chart.pdf
If you were to go only by the fact that her ribs show all the time, you'd score her as very thin. My vet puts her at between a 4 and a 5. 
Glance at this photo and you will see her ribs showing:








What is interesting though is that she has a fat pad behind her shoulder, and also a crease down her back. 








Her neck and ribs look like a 4, but her back, withers and behind the shoulders carry fat and look like she is a 5. 
My dream is always to have her fatter, but the only time I was ever able to get her ribs so they didn't show she was at a 6. Probably unhealthy. Still, when you have a hard keeper you dream of making them fat. She finishes off 8 lbs of oats a day, 1 lb of cob, and has all the hay she can eat at night. In the daytime she is on pasture. Amore would die of obesity within a month on Halla's diet. Halla's diet would kill off many horses, but she does not seem to process sugars and starches in the same way as metabolic horses and seems to need tons of calories. 

She is over 20 now and I worry that as she gets older I just won't be able to get her to eat enough to keep weight on. Our hay is very green, top quality. Halla likes oats, but seems to top out at the amount of grain she is eating now. She's stopped eating at least eight different kinds of quality horse feed, Triple Crown, LMF and the like so I hope she'll keep eating oats. I've tried chopped hay, oils, what haven't I tried? Well, so far things are going OK.

I've tried not working her but she just eats less if she doesn't exercise. When I was on vacation she didn't gain any weight from having the time off. Crazy horses.


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## Hondo

RE: "If the Godfather makes you an offer you cannot refuse, does it matter if he asks softly first?"

@BondreI think that may be good for more than a week. I don't want to be my horse's Godfather, in that context.

@gottatrot Nice frog! Question: About how much, in inches, is there in front of the frog apex? I'm still a little puzzled about the breakover point in front of the frog vs the total length in front of the frog.


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## horseluvr2524

pfft what a goofball Amore is! I've had similar moments with Shan, and it's always the times where I think "eh, she could get into trouble, but she probably won't", then she always does.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Nice frog! Question: About how much, in inches, is there in front of the frog apex? I'm still a little puzzled about the breakover point in front of the frog vs the total length in front of the frog.


If you want to talk hooves, I'll add more than a "candid" shot.

I don't usually measure in inches but tend to use ratios instead because my horses are different sizes and have different hooves. But I also know the hooves very well after years of trimming and am very familiar with all their flaws.

ELPO would suggest that the breakover would be at the pillars, and that would mean half the hoof behind the bars and half the hoof between the bars and pillars.
I put red dots on this image to show where the pillars/breakover would be according to ELPO approximately. 









Halla Right Front​ 








Halla Right Front​ 
But I am not putting a Natural Balance shoe on, so my breakover is actually where the actual hoof wall ends. So what I aim for is a different ratio, which is 1/3 of the hoof behind the bars, 1/3 between the bars and end of frog, and 1/3 between the end of the frog and the end of the hoof.
This ends up keeping my hoof well balanced and without run forward toes.

Each of my hooves is different. Amore's left front used to be a pretty severe club. Her right front is wider and flatter. Halla's left front is wider and flatter and her right front more upright. But I keep them all balanced with these ratios and even though those I suspect have coffin bone degradation (both horses did not have great trimming before age 15) do try to flare, I keep on top of it.

Both horses are very sound and have a good amount of sole depth and concavity.








Amore Right Front​ 









Amore Right Hind​ 








Amore Right Hind








Halla Right Hind​ 








Halla Right Hind​


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## gottatrot

Here are some close ups of the sidepull I made out of a leather bridle. I think it looks nicer and works better than some I've tried. I have a Nurtural synthetic bridle and I've also used a Barefoot noseband and Zilco noseband with regular bridles.
This clears Amore's eyes nicely.

























I put the noseband sidepiece and part of the cheek piece through a keeper I took off a Zilco curb chain. A leather keeper or zip tie would also work. This keeps the cheek piece from sliding around.






 








It's not tight on her nose, she just has a lot of hair right now.​ 
I ponied Halla and rode Amore in the sidepull tonight. It makes for a handful of reins.














 

The bridle was $80 on Ebay with free shipping, Henri Di Rivel padded bridle. I had been wanting a black leather bridle to match my black saddles.


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## Hondo

@gottatrotThanks. Didn't mean to turn this into a hoof critique but I value your experience. You were the one that pointed out a while back that what I thought was Hondo's receding white line was simply the result of built up dead sole.

And when I first saw you holding that hoof I thought, "that's Hondo's hoof", so I had to ask. Dr. Bowker recommends 1/3 in front of the frog and 2/3 behind. That sounds like what you are doing.

There are so many different ways to look at hooves, even among the experts.

Thanks again for the time and trouble.


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## bsms

I like the look of your sidepull:







 

The knots on the bridge of Bandits nose don't do much for me:







 

But the simplicity is nice. And at $20, I didn't mind ordering another without the nose knots. I'd like to try it again, but we've had 30+ mph winds since yesterday morning...supposed to die down by sunset. Just eyeballing it, I thought the V shape in the front and jowl strap would stabilize a sidepull better:







 

But even the rope sidepull stayed pretty stable on Bandit's face once I slid it back a little further. Your $80 version looks more elegant, and certainly has some advantages over a $175 one... 

Looking at the biothane one I bought, it might be if I twisted it around a bunch I could break it is to where it would work. It is too small for Bandit - on the last hole kind of small - but both Cowboy and Trooper have smaller noggins. But your $80 version is better looking than the $65 biothane, and I"m not sure there would be much functional difference.

Of course, I'm not sure an elegant looking sidepull can compensate for this rider...:shrug:...and a horse who has been known to poop in his food bucket may not be much better! :rofl: A combo like this could probably make do with baling twine...


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## horseluvr2524

So much to learn about hooves. It still feels very intimidating. I'm glad at least that Shan has always had easy hooves with minimal to no problems. I guess I'm most worried about screwing that up.

Y'all are impressive riding Arabians bitless. I'm not sure I'd have the guts for that honestly... unless it was one of those German types with the super long shanks.


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## gottatrot

I would think a sidepull like this would work fine, as long as you can adjust it to where it doesn't ride up or from side to side much. I'd also prefer no knots on the nose, it seems they might slide around and muddy the cues.

The first sidepull I ever tried on Amore was this one - years ago:








It only came in horse size so was too big, which I didn't know would matter so much until Amore spooked and bolted in it. When I pulled on the reins, she put her nose out and the noseband rode up and poked her in the eyes, which made her close her eyes and run faster. It put me off sidepulls for awhile. Nowadays she is steadier, and seems to do well in something that goes flat around the nose. I'd never use a chain with her, or even a curb strap that tightens. She will listen and comply unless she's super scared, and then something harsher is likely to scare her more rather than get her to listen. Dr. Cook style bitless bridles scare her because they squeeze down on the face.

I'm very pleased with the English Hackamore on Halla. She really likes it. Here is a video from our ride yesterday. I was thinking about how many things on the video she is able to do now that she wasn't able to do several years ago.

1) She is able to go behind another horse on a narrow trail without melting down. It used to be that if she wasn't allowed to be in front she would attack the other horse or try to go over the top of them.

2) Other horses are able to leave in the distance or turn other directions without her getting upset, and she is only pinning her ears at horses behind instead of swinging her head, kicking a leg out or trying to block them with her body to prevent them from passing. 

3) She is going in a straight line most of the time at all speeds. I'm able to stop her and slow her most of the time without forcing her off balance (often the only way to get a horse back into control if they decide to take over and take off with you).

4) I'm able to let her "out" all the way even in open country. For years I could only do that if there was a natural stop that would make her think...a hill that went steeply up for miles so she'd tire out, a long run that ended in a T. Even worse was if there was another horse racing with her, and she has learned to do very well with that. 

It's a tricky balance with some horses trying to find the right equipment they will listen to and is also not too much for them. The English hackamore is by far the best for Halla. It's hard to explain, I feel that some horses can't be forced to listen. The Myler curb I was using was the best until I tried this hackamore, but it was still a little too sharp. In times where Halla and I had to have a discussion, it was just a little bit too strong which made her less likely to listen and more likely to get worked up. This meant I had to lift her up a bit, which is a way I can control her speed. But it doesn't control the excitement and often made her energy go up and she would do lead changes every other stride, hopping and things like that. 

The hackamore is less strong. She can push into it quite a bit if she wants to. But this means that when we have a discussion and I get a little stronger, she stays more calm and thinks about what I am asking. And in a few moments she will agree that what I am asking seems reasonable. Without the hopping and flying changes. 

I can't lift her head and neck up as much, and Halla is very strong when she puts her head down and runs. But I am trusting her more and she is not abusing my trust. We're working together as a team more than ever. 

I'd suggest trying a English hackamore for a strong, opinionated horse to see if it works for you. I am learning the technique is a little different. You can direct rein, do smaller half halts and such. But for stronger cues and big turns it helps to use both reins together. For speed work, snaffles work well if you hold one rein steady and pull the other one back to signal speed and gait changes. With the hackamore it works better to pull both reins back together and release them, like half halting on both sides at once. You're working with the whole nose rather than the mouth and jaw, so this steadies the head. Holding one rein steady doesn't do much since you're not stabilizing a broken bit in the mouth. 

I wish I had caught Nala's spook on film...at 5:40. She dropped down and came sideways over the dune like a crab about 10 feet, so fast. I couldn't believe her rider stayed on. Halla's spook was only half that and she didn't drop.


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## Cammey

I do love watching your videos, they end up getting filed away quickly under 'life goals'. Your instincts in dealing with spooks seriously impresses me.


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## horseluvr2524

Incredible to see Nala's speck in the distance toward the beginning. It just makes you realize how fast Thoroughbreds really are. Oh and very impressive, the draping rein on the beach BEFORE galloping!

So cool watching your videos after having been there riding with you. I would love to get a helmet cam and post videos of my rides. Might have to look into that when I get back to AZ.

I'm thinking about seeing how fit I could get Shan and I in two months to do a 25 mile LD ride, just for fun. Maybe I can talk my mom and Belle into it.

Hey, does Amore's previous leaser ever ride with you anymore? I hope she wasn't scared off riding from that ordeal.


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## phantomhorse13

What a fantastic place to ride! Super jealous.


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## gottatrot

Cammey said:


> Your instincts in dealing with spooks seriously impresses me.


Actually, it's like the horses put us through a "bombproofing" course. They expose you to increasingly more difficult spooks until you stop reacting, then they reward you. "Good girl, didn't fall off that time. It wasn't so bad, was it?" 
Being facetious of course. :smile:
@horseluvr2524, you should definitely try an LD. For me the hardest parts are not getting the horses too excited at the take off, and keeping them calm for the trotting and standing at the vet check. It helps to have a buddy they know. 
Our friend came out riding Satin once, and then was busy for awhile. But she is going to come out for another ride soon, and meanwhile is busy looking for a horse to buy. She's not really into futzy little Arabs or dingy TBs, so has been looking for a nice stocky Paint or even a Drum horse. She's definitely still into horses, but just wants one that is a good fit for her to ride regularly. 
@phantomhorse13, I'm jealous of your rides too. There should be some sort of Air B & B where people swap out barns and horses for a few days.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> @*phantomhorse13* , I'm jealous of your rides too. There should be some sort of Air B & B where people swap out barns and horses for a few days.


The distance between people is definitely one of the downsides to the internet. I am not sure exactly where you are (guessing the left coast somewhere.. maybe pacific nw as you were wearing a coat in the vid), but am sure you are not an quick trailer away. Wouldn't riding together be fun?


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## gottatrot

Halla started showing signs of Vitamin E deficiency again a couple of days ago. She was getting 3,000 IU daily so I increased her dose to 6,000 IU. This time I made a video to hopefully help people see what the first signs of deficiency might look like.

My theory is that when Halla was starved and using her muscles for fuel, their ability to store Vitamin E was damaged. The damage may have been caused by severe Selenium and/or Vitamin E deficiency when she was starved, causing white muscle disease (muscles look pale instead of red). So it seems she must be fed the correct amount of Vitamin E and/or Selenium or she begins to show signs again.

The signs are mild, and I expect they will disappear within a few days because that is what has happened in the past. Which is why I made the video. The fact that the symptoms disappear with Vitamin E helps differentiate this problem from other conditions such as Shivers, PSSM, and EPM.

Apparently there are two things I need to keep in mind when the fall season comes around. The horses must be getting extra Vitamin E from the grass in the spring and summer, and this goes away in the fall. Also I am guessing the horses use more E as the nights get colder, either to keep warm or when growing their winter coats.

As I've said in another post in this journal, before I understood the deficiency Halla progressed from mild to severe symptoms including stiff gait, muscle atrophy and weakness. She sweated excessively during exercise.

I think people need to consider before rescuing a starved horse whether they will be able to keep the horse if they end up with expensive issues from the damage caused from starvation. 

For me it changed my plan to find Halla a nice home after getting her healthy and trained (along with her temperament). 
@Walkinthewalk also has had a small horse that ate much more than the bigger horses due to digestive damage after being starved. Between the extra pounds of hard feed, hay and vitamins a rescue horse can cost a lot to feed permanently.

Anyway, I hope you can see here on the video these early signs. When I pick up the hind legs, the muscles start to spasm and the legs shake. Halla does not set them right down like a normal horse but holds them up and tight. This is not usual for her when she does not have the deficiency going on.






***************************************
Yesterday we had the "other" kind of ride, the kind that is just as lovely as galloping down the beach. It's just a different way of enjoying horses - relaxing and enjoying the scenery on Amore while ponying Halla.


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## gottatrot

Today was very rainy and wet. In hindsight, I should have put the horses' rain sheets on. 
The result of this decision to not put rain sheets on was that the horses probably stood under their sheds for more of the day rather than going out to graze in the pasture. 
This led to Amore feeling half starved by the time I brought her into her stall tonight. She rushed over to her hay net, and several minutes later I heard a horse coughing. 

Amore was having an episode of "choke," or an esophageal obstruction. Poor horse, she was miserable. She is very dramatic and reactive. I've seen horses choke a couple of times and they mostly just stand there and cough with their heads down, trying to move the obstruction. It took a few minutes of watching them to figure out they weren't just coughing from inhaling something into their lung.

There was no doubt about what was going on with Amore. She rushed around her stall in big circles. Periodically she'd stop, compress her entire body and then writhe like a snake, with a rhythmic movement that went up and down from tail to head. That's the only way I can describe it. At the end, she'd expel a big cough. Twice, a large bunch of green drool came out and I was hopeful she had dislodged the blockage.

It looked like I was going to need to call the vet, and I took Amore's hay out of her stall. After going into the feed room for a minute, I heard running hooves and came out to see Amore bolting toward where her feed usually is. "You can't eat anything," I told her.
Then I noticed something that looked like a dead mouse on the floor of Amore's stall. I went to pick it up, and sure enough it was a very compacted, finely chewed wad of hay. She'd managed to clear the obstruction and now desperately wanted to eat. 

After giving Amore her hay net back, I watched her for awhile but she was now doing fine. Thankfully, the obstruction felt very soft and wasn't in place long enough to cause esophageal damage. I was certain she hadn't aspirated since she had kept her head down and coughed so explosively - but I will keep an eye on her for a couple of days to see if she seems ill. 

The rain sheets are on, so hopefully the horses will get out and graze more tomorrow. Hopefully she won't have any more episodes, or I will have to put her hay into a small hole net which stresses her out. She's not had issues with choke, so I hope it was a freak thing caused by the rain and her desperation for food tonight.


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## egrogan

Glad she resolved it on her own. Isabel had one choke, last spring, and it was a scary feeling watching her struggle. She had food pouring out of her nostrils, but she seemed to clear on her own after about 90 minutes- just as the vet arrived on the emergency evening call rate


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## bsms

I can't "like" something like that, but I'm glad to read about it. I've never seen or even read about it. It would scare the tar out of me!


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## gottatrot

Amore has had no more issues with choke or bolting down her hay. 

This afternoon it was mystical on the beach. I am not sure where the word comes from, but I understand "mistical" since we have so much fog and mist here. Things look surreal and the light shimmers a bit oddly, almost as if you were in a fairy tale (or horror tale, depending on your fancy). 

Many of us in Oregon consider fog as dense and something you can see visibly floating. Mist is more of a veil that changes the vision, and misting is something that can be felt on the skin. Today there was mist, but only right near the ocean so when Nala's rider and I went out, we passed from full sun at the barn quickly into another, hazier world. 

Surprise! When we got to the top of the dunes, the ocean was in very close and the sand was mostly covered with foam. What sand we had available was bumpy and not good for galloping. With uncertainty, we wandered out to see how the ride would go.

There was very little wind. The foam was piled up high, in some places as high as the horses' knees and sometimes crossing nearly the entire beach. 







We soon discovered we could safely canter. There was very little wind to send chunks of foam chasing after us. At first it was like an obstacle course. There were huge piles of the octopus-like seaweed that washes up on the beach. The horses quickly remembered what foam was and that it did not hurt horses. Soon they were plowing right through it. 

It was interesting to us how one piece of seaweed alone on a bare beach was something the horses would view with caution, but if a beach was covered with seaweed, they ignored it. 

It seemed good to me that we had a ride where the horses were fresh and wanted to gallop, we were not able to let them gallop, and they didn't get too hot about it. Halla did request a gallop, more than several times, but responded well when I told her we could not because the sand was too bumpy. 

We ended up going on several trails off beach, and went north farther than we'd gone before. There was a very long wooden bridge and it was not exactly safe to cross because the horses slipped several times, but only one hoof went out at a time so we made it fine.







​When we hit the beach again and began cantering, I felt Halla get very bold. It was like she was scoffing at the foam. "It doesn't hurt horses!" She started aiming for some of it and stomping along through. 

Nala was now wanting a gallop badly, so her rider let her go for a very short one. I kept Halla mainly cantering because I couldn't remember where the sand turned bumpy. The ocean had drifted out a bit so we had more room, and had taken some of the foam with it. 

We went over a couple of logs and Nala went over one I thought looked a bit large, but Nala's rider couldn't see the other side with a drop that I did. Halfway over, Nala stretched out to clear the drop and it was a nice big jump. 

Tomorrow promises to be nice weather so we will try to go out again. I am lamenting that our clocks will change back an hour next week. My thought is that if night shift workers could explain to day people how our lives are and how much this change affects us, they would have compassion and not put us through it each winter. 

Does it honestly change a morning person's life if they have an hour extra of light in the morning? It does change mine drastically to have that hour of light taken away at night. Say normally if you wanted to ride you'd have to sleep from 8 p.m. to 4 a.m. But suddenly, if you wanted to ride in the daylight you'd have to get up at 2 a.m. instead. That's the equivalent of how it changes for me. It is rather painful. 
Each year I have to whine somewhere, so this is it I guess. :grin:


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## Bondre

That foam is amazing. It sounds rather fun ploughing through it! It must be strange for the horses that the beach changes so much - they know it's the same place and yet can be so different. It can be empty or crowded, with water or without, with smooth sand or bumpy, with seaweed /foam/driftwood/rubbish or without..... not a good place for the sort of horse that likes to learn their surroundings down to the last detail and goes on alert when something is out of place. 

I hate the hour change too! I'm not a night shift worker but it leaves my afternoons reduced to a pathetically short time. We eat lunch late because of school hours - that boys get home at 3pm hungry - and once we're done eating the sun is already painfully low in the sky. Then there are still the goats to feed, so any riding has to be rather short and sweet. And the worst is still to come of course. At least winter days are longer here than back in England where it gets dark around 4 pm in December :shock:


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## gottatrot

Warning: This is going to be a rambling kind of post about some random decisions I am having difficulty making.

The first decision is something I have been struggling with for more than several years. 
I don't have a horse trailer, and I don't have a vehicle to pull a trailer. I've never boarded anywhere unless there was a trailer available for me to use in case of an emergency veterinary need. Some places I've boarded have had people who wanted to trailer places to ride and took me along (which I always was grateful for and reimbursed for gas and the privilege). This is not the case at my current facility.

I've needed a new car for some time, and the interim car I bought for $1,000 when my last car destroyed itself has been living on borrowed time for a couple of years. 

But I can't make the decision...get a big truck (F150 or similar)? If I do, I can get a trailer and either meet up with friends down the coast or take Nala and her rider to nearby trails. BUT, I am not a great driver and feel insecure driving a big truck. I would hate parking it and keeping it between the lines on a daily basis. Chances are good that I would bash it into part of our garage at some point.

What I love is a small truck. My favorite vehicle was my old Chevy S10, and I'd really like a small 4x4 Nissan Frontier or Ford Ranger. I've heard our local U-Haul rents out 1/2 ton pickups and advertises they can be used to haul boats. It's possible I could look into this and still get my own trailer that I just rented a truck to pull on occasion. 
But I am waffling over this decision and have for some time. My husband is fine with whichever way I am waffling at the time, which is no help.

A more recent thing is that I want to get another saddle. This is a hopeless problem that recurs often. I like my two treeless saddles, and they are great for some rides on either of my horses. My Lovatt and Ricketts dressage saddle is great too. But I would like to try a saddle that has more "front" to ride Halla in. I recently sold a couple hundred dollars of used tack on ebay, and Christmas is coming up. 

My two ideas are:
#1. Wait and find a used Lovatt and Ricketts Rubicon which is a saddle I've wanted for a long time. They are super hard to find used, which is why I ended up with two different L & R saddles I bought while searching or a Rubicon. The flaps are a bit more forward, which is what I'd like. Sometimes galloping on Halla in a dressage saddle is like falling down a hill, there's no front to the saddle and she runs downhill a bit. It's fine unless I need some extra balance for some reason.

#2. I saw this picture and thought it might be interesting to try. It's an Abetta saddle but customized for endurance. They changed the rigging to a centerfire english system, and swapped out the western fenders for english leathers. I've heard it can be difficult to put the english leathers through the same slot, but they say if you tie the one you want to go in to the one you're pulling out, it will follow through. 






























 
Can anyone tell me if the twist is very wide on Abetta saddles and if the seat is very hard?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My daughter's saddle is an Abetta (western endurance). She hates it and is saving up for a custom. Her main complaint is that it pushes her weight forward, which she does not like. 

As for fit, it fits her Caspian (which is why we got it) who is short backed, flat backed, and has no withers (per his grandfather Hollywood Dun It). Even though he is short, he is wide and he needs a 6.5" gullet (In western, it is the measurement between the two front conchos) so, wide shoulders, same as Oliver. Cowboy, the tank, is a 7" gullet, which is a draft size. 

Other than her complaints that it pushes her too far forward, it has held up well and this particular model has a very comfortable seat with memory foam padding.

Go to the Tucker saddle site. My next saddle will be a semi-custom Tucker, I'll post a picture of the base model when I go back and find it. It has the three point rigging. http://www.tuckersaddlery.com/ You can choose from all sorts of different options so you get exactly what you want as far as stirrups, leathers, seat surface, width, twist, tree, skirt etc.

Onto the truck. I have an old Chevy 1500, 8 cylinder suburban. Same sized engine as a standard F150. It has difficulty hauling a two horse Coach straight load trailer with Oliver and Cowboy (1100 and 1300 lbs respectively) on our hills. Whatever you get make sure it has the tow package (not just a hitch) including the little button you hit that prevents the vehicle from constantly going into overdrive.

In the spring we are planning on replacing it with at least a 2500 Ram Diesel, possibly a 3500 (I want a dually with a gooseneck, but that is still in negotiations with DH). We also have a 30' Jayflight RV trailer that we used to haul into the Rockies with the Suburban which weighs about the same as a fully loaded two horse. 

Here's the thing about hauling. If you are nervous to begin with, it is much better to have more horse power in your truck than you need rather than to be underpowered or boarderline. 

IME there is nothing worse than being on a one lane road without passing zones, having three cars behind you who are losing patience, no place to pull off and having to go up a hill and the best your Little Engine That Could can manage is 35 mph on a 60 MPH road! Even though the roads I haul on generally have the designation FM, which means Farm to Market and have some additional rules regarding "farm vehicles", people get impatient.

It just adds to the tension. I'd suggest if you can, at least go with a "real" truck. You can learn to drive it given some time. My old suburban will be going to my 16 year old son who just got his learner's permit, so it can be done! Anymore when I get in a car or small truck that is low to the ground, I feel like something is terribly wrong; it makes me nervous. Ha!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

They have a lot of different trees available with different widths.


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## bsms

My Abetta is small by western saddle standards. It is 22" long, IIRC, about the same as my Bates CC saddle was. However, and this is visible in the picture you posted, the stirrups are pretty far back. I feel like they put my heel behind me. If I could find an Abetta with forward stirrups, I'd buy it. 

Not sure what the advantage would be to English center rigging. Girth or cinch, it ought to go around the part of the horse that is the smallest circumference, wherever that works out to be. With western saddles at least, it is OK if that puts the cinch at an angle. Using western with a nylon latigo, the bulk under the leg is no more than one gets with English buckles.

Twist - with mine, it is wider than an English saddle, but much narrower than my leather saddle because the tree is smaller. Mine is the bare basic trail saddle. I'd love it, but I fight the stirrups and having them back so far leaves me feeling tilted forward. I'm shoving them forward in the picture below:










Trucks - just be careful on the model. I've got a 150, but the 6 cylinder with manual transmission is limited to 3700 lbs towing - much less than a Ranger. With an automatic, it would go up 1000 lbs, still well below our old Ranger (which my son totaled, darn it).


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## gottatrot

Thank you for the good advice.

I've been looking at the Tucker saddles, I have a concern that they look rather long on some of the horses. Other than that I like the design, but I want to read more about how they fit on Arabs. 

Good to know about the Abetta stirrup leather placement. I have learned that I'd rather err on the side of too far forward than too far back. 

Halla's problem is that she has massive shoulder muscles which effectively shorten her back. I looked through a bunch of pictures last night and am now wondering if I've been placing the dressage saddle too far forward. It seems that the saddle I used that was most balanced on her sat a bit farther back (but was too small for me). It's worth a try. She has this "sweet spot" where the rider can actually balance on her, but it's very small.

Re: trucks, nice to hear what has and has not worked for others. I'm considering posting on our local horse group to see if anyone would be interested in getting paid to take 
a couple extra horses along in their three horse trailer when they hit the trails around here. The places I want to go are close, all within 5-30 miles and are also popular with many riders. So that might be a way to get out of having to drive my own rig. 

I'm out of endurance riding until I am back to having younger horses, and even then if I said "let's do a ride," my friends from the south would stop by here to pick me up. So I really only need transportation to close by trails.


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## gottatrot

It is much easier to have insight when you are outside of a situation, reading stories or looking at other people's pictures.

After looking at some of my own photos, I suspected I might have been placing my saddle a little too far forward on Halla. In pictures of the saddle I used to have that fit her the best and in which I had the best balance point (but unfortunately did not fit me well), I noticed where I placed the saddle had me sitting about halfway between her shoulder and hip. 

Halla has a longer back than Amore, but functionally it is just as short because she has huge shoulder muscles and a slight downhill slope. Today I took my saddle pad off and adjusted the saddle into the "sweet spot," and sure enough it was farther back than I'd been placing it.

I found a very good article that explains some of the saddle fitting issues with Arabs. Many people I talk to are incredulous that my mares need W and XW trees. When viewed from the side they are so small and petite. As seen in the photos in this article, they are built like propane tanks when viewed from above.
https://www.theconnectedrider.com/blogging/saddle-fitting-the-arabian/

I was musing today over the irony of a person like me having a horse like Halla and wondering over how and why we get along so well.

Horses are the best teachers, if we're willing to learn. Not just horse lessons, but life lessons as well. Halla is a horse that tests, that takes advantage, that looks for signs of weakness. She is this strange combination of insecurity and boldness. In a way, we are direct opposites. She is bold and bossy until something makes her lose courage. I am passive, do not insist, and am not so bold until something forces me to rise to the occasion. Halla makes me rise.

Potentially, a horse so assertive could run all over a person who was passive. Yet this horse has taught me: act, or I will. Insist, or I will take over. If you don't lead, I will. In many ways, this is a horse that elevates me as a rider, a horse that insists I step up and lead or she will become the boss. She is sharp, she is difficult, super opinionated and perfect.

One thing I've learned about the hackamore and about both my horses that can be sharp: you're never going to hit the nail exactly on the head when it comes to the right level of bridling. It seems to me with the sharper horses, it is far better to err on the side of too soft rather than too harsh. With Halla, the margin of safety with too soft is not very wide. I can't just put her in something that she doesn't feel, or she will take over the world.

The english hackamore works well and she is extremely happy with it. If I let her gallop full out, it will take us a bit of time to slow and stop. With a curb bit, that was something I could do quickly if necessary. Yet I'm comfortable with this margin because my horse is safe enough, yet happy. 

Halla is my litmus test of how severe things are. Those who say an english hackamore is harsh have not ridden in them. Halla will tolerate quite a lot of pressure from the hackamore, which she would not do with the curb bit. When I palpate around her head and look for rubs, sore areas, or pulled hair she never seems to have any. There is some pressure, because she does have incentive to listen to me. Without that she will take full advantage. But it is not much more than an "ask," for sure. It is something that for her can be ridden with a constant feel, without her shaking her head or being bothered by it. That is something I'd never heard about this device, that even with leverage a nose squeeze is dull and not sharp.

Here's how Halla is:
The last time I rode, I went in the treeless saddle which I hadn't ridden in for some time. With the hackamore rather than the curb, I definitely did not have a solid base of support for leverage and Halla took full advantage. I could not let her full out, because at even halfway out she was gleefully taking over the job of "boss" and telling me what we were going to do rather than listening to my ideas.

Today I had the dressage saddle on, but I'd changed out the stirrup leathers. Even though I measured three times against the old ones, they still ended up too short. There is this sweet spot with stirrups and depending on the horse, it can make a huge difference. We started galloping and I was too high, without enough leg for ballast. Having had free rein the last time we rode, Halla tanked off and ignored my attempts at conversation. When she puts her head down at the gallop, if my core is too high it means the reins are very long and she has tons of leverage. 

After a couple miles, I hopped off and fixed my stirrups. Halla tested, stretched out, and we cantered off with me having the balance of power now skewed in my favor. She did several stretched out leaps, almost small bucks but too extended to matter. Then she settled right into communicating with me again. Now my opinion was given a bit of weight, and now we were headed back to a 50/50 partnership. 

Do I take this personally? Do I think if I had a better relationship with my horse she wouldn't be this way? I'm not sure why I would. Halla has two good friends and I can see she care for them very much. Amore and Nala are her great buddies and Halla shows great concern for Amore, watching over her well being in the field, protecting her from horses over the fence, letting her in the shelter when it rains, keeping horses from running her off the water trough. Yet she also rules over Amore and Nala, pushes them around, asserts her will and enforces her rules. 

In a way, I think she is insecure about having no one in charge, and this means she must test and see and know who is calling the shots each day. My position I must keep proving, and once I do I believe she is happier for it. Even if it means she can't gallop freely and uninhibited at whatever speed she likes. 

We had a very fun time on the trails today, with Halla and Nala trotting out. It was like a video game and quite challenging. I had to watch for branches overhead, for knee knockers on both sides, for holes and unevenness in the ground at our feet. Meanwhile, I had to look ahead, note the angles of the curves, and thread my horse through the eye of the needle between trees. All the while keeping my horse to a trot as she insisted we could probably do it all at a canter.

People can think that if a horse takes over or takes off, there is something wrong with the friendship. Why would a friend want to do this? I don't think a horse finds the harm in this that we might. They don't think about our desire to avoid pot holes or to keep the speed down to our level of comfort. Halla is not in a power struggle with me emotionally, she just has a mind that works out the puzzle and discovers if she can be the one calling the shots. It seems impersonal, like someone beating you in a chess game. I've known one other horse that was like this, playing chess with you. But he was a gelding and only played on occasion, rather than on every ride. Oh the joy of mares.


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## horseluvr2524

One thing about hauling with a smaller bodied towing vehicle-I have heard it said by others that the problem is not the power of the engine but the mass of the vehicle itself to control the trailer in an emergency, going down hills, etc. So yes there are many cars out there whose engines have the capacity to tow a horse and trailer, believe it or not. However, they lack the mass (among many other things) to be able to stabilize and control the trailer.

That's just what I've heard/read anyway.

Do get the towing package. I don't know everything about it, but I do know that it aids in the prevention of hauling wear and tear on your vehicle.

If you only trailer out a few times a year, renting/hiring a trailer would probably be the way to go. However, it sounds like you want to be able to trailer out at least once every two weeks (I'm guessing). Definitely many advantages to having your own rig, but also a lot more responsibility.

I would recommend getting a 2500 or better, unless you are only ever going to haul one horse through the mountains. It was scary enough driving through steep mountains with my teenaged brother in the back seat yelling about the engine noise (like I can do anything about that) and people right up on my bumper, and I was driving a Dodge Cummins 2500 diesel towing a 2 horse GN. Not a rinky dinky rig by any means.

Driving a big (and long) truck isn't that bad, you get used to it. Its harder when the trailer is attached, but as I said, practice makes perfect! My mother and I have a rule about not towing to any place we haven't scouted out ahead of time. I know that I don't have the ability to maneuver it out of a tight or bad spot, and my mother has hauled a grand total of one time. :lol:


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, I am selling an 18 inch Abetta trail saddle, in case you might be interested. I am asking $100 and I will pay the shipping. It is very light and comfortable. I'm not very clear on wide twist vs narrow twist, so I can't tell you about that. I know that for me, the saddle is super comfortable and one of my favorite saddles. This particular saddle only fits a horse that is fairly wide with lowish withers. The only horse we have with that body shape likes to buck, rear, and launch herself into a bolt unexpectedly. I have a "bear claw" barrel saddle that fits her perfectly (I think), so I ride her in that (and have yet . . . yet . . . to come off of her . . . I know, sooner or later, that day will come). I am not using the saddle any more, and have no need to make money from it, so I am letting it go for $100.

I have a feeling that my Isabeau might be like your Halla. She wants to take control of situations and never stops challenging me. She is super fun to ride and I seem to not tire when riding her. I can't imagine trying to sell her to someone because she is very quirky. (Plus, I love her very much). After 3 1/2 years, I've figured out most of her quirks, and we get along great. On the other hand, she is the low horse in the herd, and I can tell that she hates that . . . I wonder if she tries to boss me because she can't boss anyone else. She used to be boss of the filly who bucks and rears on rare occasions, but the filly is now bigger than her and has passed her on the totem pole.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> Gottatrot, I am selling an 18 inch Abetta trail saddle, in case you might be interested. I am asking $100 and I will pay the shipping...
> 
> ...I have a feeling that my Isabeau might be like your Halla. She wants to take control of situations and never stops challenging me. She is super fun to ride and I seem to not tire when riding her. I can't imagine trying to sell her to someone because she is very quirky. (Plus, I love her very much).


That is too good of a deal and I would buy it in a heartbeat, plus pay shipping, but unfortunately I usually ride in a 15 inch so I don't think I could go above a 16 inch. Not trying to be rude but it's really 18 western? I don't know how to say this without sounding insulting, but that would be like a 20 inch english saddle and I think like a 300 lb man could ride in that...?

I love the quirky horses, and Isabeau is lucky to have you.


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## gottatrot

We have been discussing saddle fit on @*bsms*'s journal.
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/
For educational purposes, I will post some pictures I took today of Amore's back. They illustrate a horse shaped like a lightbulb, or even like a triangle that narrows to a point at the front. Don't tell Amore I am posting such unflattering pics. 
It seems in the past we have avoided taking photos from these angles, due to how unflattering they are. 

A couple of points: Although Amore has such a wide barrel, she is not overweight - her ribs are easily felt and she is shaped like this even when on the thin side. Also, if you notice the white hairs over her withers I have no idea how she got them but I know it wasn't related to a saddle. She had that patch when I bought her and she wasn't even green broke - had never been saddled or had a surcingle on before. 















































 
Where are her shoulders? Does she really taper out to a point? Where is her neck? Yes, I know. It was why she was so difficult to stay on when she used to buck. 
If you hear that Arabs have "well sprung ribs," this is what they mean. But some are lucky enough to have some shoulders and at least a little bit of withers to go with it. 

When Amore was younger and I used to ride her many miles, my friends would laugh because I'd sing, "Riding through the desert on a horse with no neck."


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## knightrider

You are not insulting. I was told when I bought it, it is an 18 inch. It is very comfortable to me, but I have long legs. 4horses on this forum tried it and loved the way it fit her horse, but it was too big for her. I really am not very knowledgeable about saddle fit, and my complicated horses make me feel even less knowledgeable. When a saddle appears to fit, I discover it does not fit, and when a saddle appears to not fit, the horse likes it fine. So that muddles me. I wonder if some of saddle fit is smoke and mirrors. Isabeau knows exactly what she will tolerate on saddle fit and what she won't tolerate, and she doesn't hesitate to let me know . . . di-rect-ly.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

Shan also has white spots in the same place on her withers that were there when I got her. Its a puzzle to me, but I figured it was from poor saddle fit at some point. However, she was green broke when I got her and the owner hated working with her, so I don't think she was on her more than a few times, and doubtful it was any length of time.

She has other white spots that were also present at the time of purchase in saddle related areas.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> It seems in the past we have avoided taking photos from these angles, due to how unflattering they are.


I often find myself editing out pictures I post here and elsewhere for this very reason. As if my horse cares that she's an old lady losing topline and shifting it to her belly!


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## tinyliny

did Amore spend time blanketed? that white patch looks like one caused by a blanket pulling down on the spinuous process of the withers.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> I wonder if some of saddle fit is smoke and mirrors. Isabeau knows exactly what she will tolerate on saddle fit and what she won't tolerate, and she doesn't hesitate to let me know . . . di-rect-ly.


You have to love the opinionated horses.
@tinyliny, Amore had not been blanketed either. When I say she was not even green broke I mean she was pretty wild and had worn a halter but did not know how to lead or tie, and was almost unhandled. The owner said she had no training at all since she was a foal. What I wondered is if she'd had some kind of accident with a fence, getting caught underneath. 
@horseluvr2524, seems sad Shan had marks from saddles when she had barely even had one on. That must have been some rough handling, or too much too soon. Maybe they just didn't know what they were up against, because the second time or so I saddled Amore she did a somersault. Good thing I saw those white hairs first or I would have felt guilty forever.
@egrogan, I know, seems funny we care about our horses' best angles in photographs. But they are still beautiful even in old age.


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## gottatrot

My mom just sent me this photo she took awhile back. Some might wonder why a person would enjoy a horse that always is testing their owner. Yet this photo shows Halla's other very prominent side. Although she tests and takes advantage, she is equally engaged and interested and interactive with me, which makes our relationship very enjoyable. Here I am explaining something about Halla to my non-horse parents, and she has come over to listen and take part in the conversation. Her ears are pointed at me and the other humans, rather than Amore.

A friend who began hanging around Halla while visiting her horse in the field told me she was so surprised to find out that despite Halla's demeanor she was quite "cuddly." Which is true. From the very beginning when she was neglected, starved and stressed about life, it was obvious she enjoyed and wanted human friendship. Even when she was so afraid to be caught, I could see there was a part of her that wanted to trust and see what happened when I caught her. Once she discovered nothing bad would happen to her, she was relieved to be able to trust and be friends. 

One reason I fell for Halla in the beginning was that even after all she'd been through, she would always leave her food and come over to be brushed. I've not known another horse that enjoyed grooming so much they'd leave a full pan of grain and come over for grooming. She'd close her eyes, enjoying the feeling and the attention. 

*********************************************
I'm feeling a bit nostalgic about Amore. Although I've said she is "retired," part of me has still felt some need to get a saddle on her for a gentle ride or two each week. After years of having two horses I needed to keep in condition, the habit has stayed in my mind. 

A couple days ago, Nala's rider had headed out for a ride before I managed to get to the barn. Since their ride was almost over by the time I arrived, I decided to take Amore out to meet them on the beach and just walk and jog out there a bit. 

Once we got onto the beach, I was sorry. Amore was a little nervous since she hadn't been on the beach in awhile, and Nala was cantering and trotting around. But after having ridden this horse for so many hundreds of miles, I could feel the shifty sand was too much for her to handle along with my weight. She wanted to go faster but couldn't balance well and her hind end did not support her strongly. She stepped wrong several times, and I could feel she wasn't lifting her legs well to overcome the sand. 

After keeping Amore to a walk as well as I could, I got off to lead her up the steep dune off the beach. I got back on to ride her over the the grassy fields back home. 

It made me a little sad, but I knew I shouldn't be feeling that way. Amore doesn't care about being ridden, and I think very small micro outings are enough change in routine for her. She gets plenty of leg stretching exercise in her large pasture each day, and has good horse friends surrounding her. I will do my best to remember she is having a happy life and I don't need to concern myself with her fitness level anymore. She is an old lady!

Well, she is almost 26 and between a touch of arthritis and Cushing's she is finally showing her age. She didn't even walk quickly toward home like she used to. I will keep spoiling her and we both enjoy long walks together.

Last night there was a movie on called "Edge of Tomorrow." It is a Tom Cruise movie where he is fighting aliens and it simulates a video game because he gets to relive the same day over and over, learning from his mistakes and getting a little further each time.

It reminded me so much of how it was starting with Amore. It honestly was like a video game. We'd be riding along, something would happen at lightning speed and "Boom!" I'd be on the ground. It never seemed like I had time to think or react, and yet each time either my mind or my body learned something. Over time, these little things added up and we made progress. Yet it was so much like the movie because the character seemed a bit frustrated..."Dead again!" Oh well, try again tomorrow. And that's how it was for me..."Bucked off again!" Oh well, try again tomorrow.

Thinking about this made me smile and remember all the years of ups and downs we've had together. It's so sad when animals get old, but we will always have the fond memories of our life together.


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## horseluvr2524

I've heard before that old horses really go downhill when you stop riding them. I'm sure this relegates more to horses who spend the majority of their day in a stall. I believe most creatures (humans included) need a certain amount of exercise each day to stay healthy. A decent amount of walking (like walking around the pasture) should be enough.
However, I don't think that the occasional amble through the woods and fields is going to hurt Amore. She probably enjoys the extra attention and getting out and about. But you know her better than I do :wink:

I experienced for myself the sadness that overcomes you when the reality of your aging animals hits you. I went up a steep "hill" (mini-mountain more like) with my two childhood dogs this year. It was a sad reality check to see them both struggling with it, but they are large dogs around ten years old, and while in much better shape than other dogs their age, rigorous exercise is just a bit too much for them. They seem to prefer spending most of the day on their dog beds, romping around the yard, and occasionally taking a stroll through the neighborhood.


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## egrogan

I totally understand your conflicted feelings about Amore's aging. My husband and I are really lamenting our own aging menagerie these days. We've had a lot of animal loss in the past year- our old dog, who we got 11 years ago when we first started dating, and 5 of our 8 chickens who had the old age problems the "feed store" chickens get when they turn 4 or 5 (the chickens are pets here). Our cat is 16 this year- I've had him my entire post-college life and he is noticeably slowing down. Our other dog is almost 10 and starting to show it. And then of course Izzy is 22 now. 

We've been pondering what happens when the "old guard" is gone- joking we're moving to a studio apartment in the middle of Manhattan and being animal free for awhile. Though deep down both of us know there's no chance we'll actually do that


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> We've had a lot of animal loss in the past year- our old dog, who we got 11 years ago when we first started dating, and 5 of our 8 chickens who had the old age problems the "feed store" chickens get when they turn 4 or 5 (the chickens are pets here).


How long can chickens live? 
I remember a few years ago our old parakeet had a stroke and we had to bring him in to the vet to be put to sleep. I told the vet he was ten and she said, "Aww, ten months?" When I said ten years she was very surprised. 
He was a good little buddy. I've read parakeets can live 15 or even 20 years with the right diet (I knew nothing about diet when I got "Larry Bird,") so I'm hoping G.I. Joe and G.I. Jane will be around even longer.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> How long can chickens live?
> I remember a few years ago our old parakeet had a stroke and we had to bring him in to the vet to be put to sleep. I told the vet he was ten and she said, "Aww, ten months?" When I said ten years she was very surprised.
> He was a good little buddy. I've read parakeets can live 15 or even 20 years with the right diet (I knew nothing about diet when I got "Larry Bird,") so I'm hoping G.I. Joe and G.I. Jane will be around even longer.


I know some backyard chicken folks who have kept their old ladies going to 8 or 9 years old- but that's not very common.

Most of the commercial breeds have been selectively bred for heavy egg production early in their lives, and their laying slows down significantly between 18-24 months. A lot of people I know with backyard laying flocks will slaughter them when they get closer to 2 years and replace them with new chicks the next year. But like I said, I'm a hopeless softy, so mine are here for the long haul. It's hard when they get much beyond 2 years though, as those heavy laying breeds end up with some pretty nasty reproductive problems. For example, two of my girls this year had "internal laying" problems- basically, the reproductive system ceases to work properly, and begins to deposit eggs in the abdominal cavity instead of pushing them through to lay. That leads to massive internal infection, and they get these miserable swollen "water bellies." You can try to treat the infection, but once their laying is off track, there's no cure. At that point, it's more humane to euthanize them. And yes, I have been to the vet to euthanize a chicken. I told you- hopeless softy...

On a happier note, let's see some pictures of your parakeets! Love their names


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## bsms

The week we put our Aussie mongrel down, we lost two chickens. One was to a Ferrugenous Hawk - a BIG bird who was trying to drag her away when we pulled into the drive.








​ 
The second I killed due to the internal laying thing. A week later, we had a another one that I had to kill for the same reason. None were over a year, but this is a tough place to keep chickens. They want to roam around, but we have a lot of predators. I'll admit I had no idea chickens had so much personality. The one killed by the hawk would stroll into the house if you left a door open, and perch on the window next to my computer, cocking her head and trying to see what I was doing.


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## gottatrot

Interesting about the chickens and their personalities. It doesn't surprise me - the birds I've had have been real characters. I wouldn't have thought a bird of prey would attack a chicken!



egrogan said:


> On a happier note, let's see some pictures of your parakeets! Love their names


Thanks, they were kind of army green when little, although they have more colors and markings now. The birds live in my tack room, out of reach of the cat.
If you don't know, parakeet males have blue above their beaks and the females have pink. Makes it easy to tell them apart.














They live in a flight cage I made them with plexiglass and wire sides. I'd only had male birds before so will soon need to make a sturdier and hopefully even larger one. Females are very destructive to wood!






 
What can I say, we don't have kids so our extra rooms are hobby rooms. What might have been a guest room is a large tack room that also has portraits of great animal friends I've had.


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## horseluvr2524

I should have known you were also a bird person @gottatrot :grin: I don't know what it is about bird people and horse people, but it seems that many people who love horses also love birds. It must have something to do with that sense of freedom-freedom on a horse's back, and the freedom a bird has in flight.

I've got a sweet little peachfaced lovebird named Baby (so named because I hoped he would forever stay sweet and cuddly. Still kinda is... lol). He is 5 years old now and I'm expecting another 15 years out of him. He is still very playful and sweet, and has finally warmed up to DH, except for occasionally nibbling on his ear and glasses too hard lol! Our no-prey drive cat is best friends with him, although we always supervise when the bird is out. In case you are curious, I feed him Roudybush (which Petsmart started carrying a while back making it more readily available) which is an excellent pellet that does NOT have all of the additives and colors that makes bird food look like junk kids cereal. I like feeding the pellets so I don't have to worry about making sure I'm giving him a well rounded diet each day, the pellets take care of that.

I used to have a pair of parakeets, they were sweet and tame and eventually had a clutch of healthy babies. The male had a pinkish white cere and the females was more grey. It was hard to tell what gender they were at first!


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...it seems that many people who love horses also love birds. It must have something to do with that sense of freedom-freedom on a horse's back, and the freedom a bird has in flight.


True...I do know at least several horse people who have birds of some kind. In general animals/living creatures fascinate me very much. People laugh at me at work when I tell them how I've gone out at night and looked in a flower pot in my driveway and then just sat and watched the amazingly busy snail life that was going on in there. I noticed they liked eating the Sea Thrift flowers so I would pick some and put them down in the driveway so they could get them more easily. 
We have a lot of plants and try to grow them, but honestly I prioritize the bugs and wildlife over the plants. This uncaring attitude is probably why I am so poor at keeping plants alive. 
***************************************************

On another thread we were discussing saddle fit and how male/female anatomy might affect it. It has been interesting to think about why it might be more helpful to put my legs in front of what could be considered "correct" head to heel alignment. 

I managed to get myself up early enough to go out for a ride on Halla with Nala at 3:30, and we got in 8 miles by 4:45 when it was starting to get dark. As we cantered along, I experimented with having my leg forward or back and I could feel how the angle and contact of my leg improved when I had my leg more forward. 

Something else I was thinking of as we rode was the enigma of what makes a rider nervous. 

Life itself is tenuous, and we can get ourselves comfortable with almost anything. In one extreme, some people feel it would be too unsafe to go outside their house, even when living in a quiet neighborhood in a small town. 
In these modern times we whiz around in cars at 80 mph and fly in airplanes. Just the thought of doing those things would have absolutely terrified people in the not too distant past. Yet most of us can do these things while casually looking out a window and letting our minds wander. 

If we have an illusion of safety, we can do anything without fear. But it is very interesting what makes us feel safe or unsafe. 

How many miles had I ridden in normal english stirrup leathers without a thought? But after seeing photos of an accident where a jockey got hung up with his leg between the two straps, suddenly I was eyeing those things suspiciously, and it's true I feel better now when I have them covered with fleece. 

After hearing that treeless saddles needed safety stirrups "because they hang on a closed ring," I did not feel safe riding in them with regular stirrups. Until someone pointed out (@bsms?) that western saddles have the stirrups and fenders firmly attached, and no one worries about safety stirrups. After that, for some reason it didn't bother me at all to ride in regular stirrups even if they were attached to the saddle with no release bar.

It is our perception of things that makes us feel secure or insecure. If we can't imagine what might happen, we will probably feel safe. If we can imagine some scenario of disaster, we will probably feel unsafe. 

Many people probably feel safer with a western saddle horn to grab onto. They make me feel unsafe. I rode western for years, but several incidents eroded my confidence. 

First, I saw a trainer get on a young horse, the horse bolted, and her foot slipped. Her coat got caught over the saddle horn, and she was hanging off the side as the horse galloped straight into a wall. Well, everyone got off with just scrapes, but that image was in my mind. 

Then I got bucked off a couple times where I ended up coming down on the horn very hard in the couple bucks before the horse got me off. Next, I started doing some jumping while in a western saddle and sometimes would get my shirt hooked over the horn. All of these things added up to my mind relating the horn to bad things, to injury, entrapment and impalement. So saddle horns actually make me a little nervous. 

It is the same with helmets, going from feeling invincible without one to seeing a couple wrecks where people bashed their heads, bashing my own head a couple times, and now it's gotten to the point where I feel if I forget to put one on I'm likely to be killed. It's a perception. 

What made me think of this was remembering how insecure I'd felt recently riding Amore when her legs did not feel sturdy and balanced underneath her, and we were going very slow. 
Versus the security I had today galloping on Halla, even when she put her head down and kicked up her hind as if to buck, and when she threw in some leaps and plunges as Nala took off too fast for her to follow. Probably if something happened at full speed I would be hurt worse than if Amore collapsed under me at a jog/walk. But the perception of a horse solidly moving in balance versus one that was not strong or balanced meant riding Amore felt more unsafe to my neuro system that has become attuned to riding horses and how it feels when things are right versus wrong. 

The biggest nemesis to my confidence is always tack. If there is something wrong with the tack, real or imagined, I lose my sense of security. This is in spite of the fact that I've had major tack failures and never had an injury from it. I've had a stirrup leather buckle break when galloping, I've had reins come detached from the bridle, I've had a cheekpiece break, and I've had saddles slip all the way around to one side, all the way back to the flank, get bucked onto the horse's neck, and even fall right off the horse. Yet still, I have a fear of tack failures. :smile:


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...It is our perception of things that makes us feel secure or insecure. If we can't imagine what might happen, we will probably feel safe. If we can imagine some scenario of disaster, we will probably feel unsafe...


I think my wife agreed to start riding again after our visit to the ranch in June because she saw people riding lots of miles without helmets. Then she spent a couple of hours riding without one, and she lost her fear of riding. She hasn't ridden much lately, and I wonder if it has been because I've been riding with a helmet more lately.

I've never been afraid of coming off a horse, maybe because I've never come off a horse I wasn't already trying to get off. My fear has always been that the horse will fall, and I'll ride it into the ground. Oddly enough, that was my fear in flying jets. I flew in two-seat fighters so I always had an ejection seat. But by the end of my career, I realized I was one of those who would ride a jet into a mountainside, still troubleshooting, rather than pull the handles and eject.

My fear in riding, which I mostly do at slow speeds anyways, is that my horse will slip on pavement, or stumble running down a trail, or the ground will give way beneath us climbing up out of a wash - and if those happen, I'm certain I'll ride the horse into the ground.

I went helmetless for a while, and my wife started riding with me. Regularly.

I started using a helmet again, and that was about when my wife stopped riding. Could it be that seeing me wear a helmet reminds her of the risk and frightens her? 

Mia was pretty clumsy. When scared, she forgot all about her surroundings and sometimes also stopped picking up her feet. Her mind would dump all thought. She could be a real sweetheart, but she was terrifying when scared.

Bandit is more agile, and he is getting more sure-footed as he has started using his left front leg correctly. His chest is broadening out. His stance is wider. And he doesn't dump his mind when scared. He remains aware of cactus, gullies, drop-offs, sand, rock, pavement, etc, and incorporates that into his escape plan. If he can shy 12 feet sideways before hitting cactus, he'll shy 11 feet sideways. Or 11 feet sideways and then back up. In the military, we called that "situational awareness". In a dogfight, good SA is critical. Bandit has it. Mia did not. Bandit is vastly safer ride than Mia, although Mia was a gentler, more "willing" horse. 

Fears are so very odd. My BIL won't even enter a corral with a horse, but he'll ride his motorcycle through Phoenix during rush hour traffic. I spent much of my life hiking in the deserts by myself, off trail and no phone...but now I feel naked driving to the store without one. As you said, "_It is our perception of things that makes us feel secure or insecure._" But I wonder...if I stop using my helmet, will my wife start riding again?

:think:


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, they do make Western safety stirrups. They have a spring and a hinge on the outside side. I bought a pair for my daughter as she is training her filly who bucks, rears, and launches herself into a bolt at unexpected times. I wanted to sell the filly; she wouldn't hear of it. I got her safety stirrups.

My Chorro horse spooks 8 feet sideways with no warning. I ride him in a Paso Fino saddle, and have safety stirrups on that. And I have safety stirrups on the Aussie saddle that my daughter's friends ride in. I feel SO much better with those stirrups.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> Something else I was thinking of as we rode was the enigma of what makes a rider nervous..... If we have an illusion of safety, we can do anything without fear. But it is very interesting what makes us feel safe or unsafe.





bsms said:


> My fear has always been that the horse will fall, and I'll ride it into the ground.


This is what give me a cold sweat from time to time too - always when I'm going at speed on Macarena. I wonder what would happen if she hit a bad patch of ground and stumbled. I'm thinking this while the ground is flashing by beneath us - and then I stop wondering and just concentrate on avoiding any conspicuous lumps and bumps. If it ever happens, well, I'll deal with that eventuality if and when necessary. I hope not to fall off her ever - I'm getting too old for that kind of stuff - and especially not at speed. But I'm not going to stop going fast (yet) either. As you rightly point out, we feel invincible until we have a reason not to. 

I've been lucky and I've never had any tack failures, but I'm sure if I'd ever found myself with a broken bridle, girth strap or stirrup leather then I'd be very anal in future about checking and double checking such things. I once discovered my son had been riding Flamenca with only one of the girth straps done up - but not until we had returned and untacked, so it was too late for more than a "don't do it again!"


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## gottatrot

@Bondre, your son must be very balanced if he can ride without both sides of the girth attached. :smile:

A friend posted this video on FB saying she thought it was something that might happen to Halla.





It's why I enjoy Arabs so much. They are a complete paradox. Looking at them, they appear so beautiful and graceful. Yet they are complete klutzes. Their talent for getting themselves into the worst situations (albeit in fine style) keeps me laughing.
Does it surprise us that this horse found two miles out to sea after spooking _into the water_ is an Arab?









I confessed on another thread that I wrote a book about Amore four or five years ago, called "Round Pen, Square Horse." It's a silly thing, about many foibles and mistakes along this journey of learning about horses. Be warned it is an actual novel length book. Human names have been changed to protect the guilty. Writing is a little hobby, just for my own entertainment. Not sure how readable it is, but I made a link to Google Docs:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QtPgUfM6lScvcbMAU7hrtbN22OtH7vCuJ-yraYdSCfc/edit?usp=sharing


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## Cammey

> My horse could spook in dozens of different ways. Some need no explanation such as “The Spurt,” “The Trip,” or “The Living Statue.” There were many others, such as “The Spider,” where my head would suddenly drop a couple of feet as my horse’s legs spread out in every direction. “The Skitter” sounded especially interesting on pavement. “The Banana” was when my horse’s head and tail would remain pointed at the object in question but her body would point in the opposite direction.


I'm enjoying reading this immensely (I'm at around chapter 15 right now, this will take a while). As with reading the blog - I am both amazed and a little terrified at your journey with Amore.


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## Bondre

Thank you so much for making your book about Amore accessible to us all here. I've read the first five chapters and I am frankly astonished at your bravery! It is easy to see how you acquired your seemingly intuitive manner of dealing with difficult horses. You had a hard task-master in that little mare. My little problems with Macarena and Duna fade into insignificance in comparison, so that's quite encouraging! I'm looking forward to continuing the saga....


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## gottatrot

It's hard to believe anyone would slog through the book, but your comments are appreciated! It seems now like a snapshot of how I felt at the time, and I keep learning more all the time. Looking back, I know things could have been handled better many times, but back then I wasn't able to find another way. 

I don't really mention it, but I often consulted more than several trainers with questions and advice but no one told me they had the answers. Rather, I was advised a few times that there are a lot of easy horses in the world, so why waste time with the difficult ones? But if the trainers want you to ride the horse and decline getting on themselves, it doesn't exactly give you hope that someone else will have more success or give the horse a better life!


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## Dwarf

gottatrot said:


> It's hard to believe anyone would slog through the book, but your comments are appreciated! It seems now like a snapshot of how I felt at the time, and I keep learning more all the time. Looking back, I know things could have been handled better many times, but back then I wasn't able to find another way.
> 
> I don't really mention it, but I often consulted more than several trainers with questions and advice but no one told me they had the answers. Rather, I was advised a few times that there are a lot of easy horses in the world, so why waste time with the difficult ones? But if the trainers want you to ride the horse and decline getting on themselves, it doesn't exactly give you hope that someone else will have more success or give the horse a better life!


I don't post much on the Horse Forum, but I do pop on every few days and read all the newest posts. I was a horse crazy kid without much opportunity to interact with horses, and although an adult now I don't see myself owning a horse any time soon but I still really enjoy reading everyone's experiences and advice about horses. I saw your link this morning and have been reading your book off and on all day, and I just wanted to say what a treat it was! It's very well written and engaging from start to finish, you should be proud of it. 

Your adventures with Amore and later Valhalla were a blast to follow along with, so thank you for sharing it on the forum! I would have loved finding more books like yours as a kid, romantic tales of horses are all well and good but they often lack a grounding in reality and the older I got the more I wasn't interested in them.


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## tinyliny

I am starting to read your biography. makes me sad to hear how similar we are, yet how far apart we ended up . 

good writing. I assume you editted and worked it some, . . or did you just write it perfect in the fifrst draft?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I am starting to read your biography. makes me sad to hear how similar we are, yet how far apart we ended up .
> 
> good writing. I assume you editted and worked it some, . . or did you just write it perfect in the fifrst draft?


I'm sad some of you don't live nearby so we could be riding and learning partners. When you say far apart, what do you mean exactly? I know that we have many different experiences, but from what you've shared on the forum I feel we share the close kinship of being true horse people.

Well, my husband has read a lot about writing technique, and he says it's better to write things fast and flowing rather than trying to write it like a final copy. My sister says this too, and she's a library director so she's had many writing classes. 

But unfortunately it doesn't come out of me like that, it comes from my brain more like speech - you kind of edit what you say before saying it out loud. That being said, it's more difficult for me to be articulate when speaking than writing. 

Of course when you read through what you write again, you see things that don't sound right and change things. I would like to put it online in a better format so it is easier to read, maybe I can find somewhere to make it an e-book. It would be nice to have it edited a bit, but it's rather expensive from what I've seen. Probably quite silly to have a free e-book edited.

It's hard to describe _why_, but there are reasons I want to share stories. 
First, it's because I feel like they can invite discussion and criticism, and those are things that might help me in the future with horses. To me, opposing views help me either confirm my own views or else see other angles I have not yet considered. On my own, it is so much more difficult to learn (this is why why I enjoy the forum). 

Second, I learn so much from others' stories, and hope other people will share about their experiences and the horses they know.

Third, I just wish people could appreciate horses for their individuality more than for what the horse can do for them. Does it really matter so much if the horse doesn't fit into our preconceived ideas of how a horse should be? What I am trying to learn how to do is celebrate the horse and their strengths rather than lamenting over their weaknesses. I want to learn how to work with the horse as a friend rather than trying to force the horse into some idea I have.


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## knightrider

Hear! Hear! I agree with you!


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## Hondo

Biography...........where?


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## Hondo

I have no idea what happened but I have not been recieving notifications of new gottatrot posts. I just finished going over the last several pages. Found the Round Pen Square Horse I asked about in anther thread. Got it saved to my desk top.

Didn't find the biography. Must have missed it.

I'll check my subscriptions to see what's going on.

Lots of good stuff posted here.


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## Hondo

Ok, now that I'm reading it, I see that Round Pen Square hole IS the bio referred to. Thanks so much for posting. It is as I had expected.


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## Hondo

Oh no! Four in a row?

But I have to post this before I forget.

On the truck. I bought my first four wheel drive and first horse trailer within the last six months as a 74 YO. Both were mechanics specials with the truck at $2,100 and the trailer for $1,100. With a bit of work and a little money both have been rendered sound, safe, and serviceable.

I have driven an extended cab eight foot bed pickup since 1992. With all the small cars and parking lots designed mostly for small cars, the size pickup I drive can be difficult getting around in, in certain locations. I have always normally parked at the back of parking lots even in a small car but doctors offices and the like can be a problem. Sometimes I have literally needed to cut my wheels into the curb and ride over it in order to back up and get out.

So...With your self reported claim of not being what you consider a "great" driver, I would suggest a short bed pickup with no extended cab and no extra doors. Short as possible. These are much easier to negotiate in tight spots. Almost as easy as a medium car. I'm talking about a full sized pickup but short bed.

If you are interested in safety and easier handling down the highway, particularly when experiencing the bow wave of semi trucks, and backing, you might opt for a fifth wheel trailer. They can be backed and turned around in much tighter places than a bumper pull.

I bought a trailer with the design of an open stock trailer, although it is a horse trailer and has a top and front. Horses load in those much much easier. The angled are probably safer for the horse when tied but I don't tie. I let them turn which ever way makes them feel safer.

I am also in the process of fabricating a rack for the pickup to be able to get into more difficult areas. It has a top and over hang over the cab and will be covered on top. I can also haul three horses that way although I "could" get three in the trailer.

Thoughts on buying verses renting. I'm sort of spontaneous sometimes. I just sort of decide all of a sudden sometimes, "I think I'll go do this". Can't do that with rented. But if you're a planner, might not matter. Unless a friend calls at the last minute and says, "Hey ya wanna.......do you have a way to haul?" Then you can't unless stuff is sitting outside.

I don't go anywhere very often but if I don't have transportation sitting outside waiting I'm fit to be tied. 

Just got back from a ride and was thinking about your pickup thing out there.


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## knightrider

Your book is wonderful. I am on Chapter 9. I love the idea of the horse going "tharn". It is interesting how closely my Isabeau resembles your Amore, at least in making the training VERY difficult. Luckily for me, I trained a bunch of easy to train horses before I met Isabeau. I can only imagine how difficult it was for you to train such a complicated horse as your first horse you ever trained. 

Today I trailered Isabeau to a local park to ride with friends. For the first time ever, EVER, Isabeau did not kick even once in the trailer, nor did she kick once going home. I was really happy with her. But what she does do still is, when we get close to the trailer at the end of the ride, she turns back on the trail and will not move towards the trailer. On this particular ride, she was worse than usual about not wanting to go back. In fact, a quarter of a mile from the trailer parking area, she began to spin and work her way back out the trail. It was extra humiliating because who should come riding towards me going out the trail, but an old friend of 30 years. How embarrassing that I could not control my horse to simply go home? My long-standing friend and her friend thought it was funny. I hated it.

My riding friends discovered I was no longer riding with them, but 100 yards back out the trail, spinning in circles, so they rode back to meet me. That is when my riding friend freaked out watching Isabeau. "Look at her eyes!" she exclaimed. "She's crazy! Look at her. There's something wrong with her. She's mental!" Well, yeah. I've been knowing that for a good while now. I think most of my friends think Isabeau is just spoiled, and I'm not a good rider or trainer. But it's much more than that (although both of those things are probably true). She was "tharn". My neighbor calls it losing her mind. Our riding friend was horrified when I dismounted (leaped off is more like it) and began to lead Isabeau. "That's the worst thing you can do!" she exclaimed. My neighbor, who was riding with us, and originally owned the mare, said, "That's the ONLY thing you can do. If you stay on her, she will go over on you." I led her a bit until I could tell she had her mind back, re-mounted, and successfully finished the ride, dismounting a good ways from the trailer.

Thank you for sharing your well-written book. I am loving it. I wish you were in Florida and we could ride together.


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## egrogan

I am about halfway through the book and have been just skimming this thread quickly to be sure there are no spoilers! It's great reading- I feel like I'm there.


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## bsms

^^ Sounds like Mia, @knightrider. The day I jumped off her back was when my oldest daughter shouted, "_Her eyes are rolling like a slot machine!_" - not exactly what one wants to hear when riding. A normal dismount wasn't an option with Mia. When she was scared, she treated any attempt at dismounting as abandoning ship and cause for bolting. The best I could do in those spots was wrap the reins around the horn (see, there IS a reason for the horn of a western saddle) and jump off before she could get straight.

People who haven't experienced it tend to mock it. And/or blame the rider.

Bandit gets scared, but I've yet to see him blow his mind and forget his footing, objects in the way, etc. He is easily 20 times safer to ride.Riding him is nothing like what I sometimes felt on Mia. It has taken me a long time to even start realizing that not all riding involves regular "AWWW SXXX!!!" moments!

If I had some very open country to ride in, I'd still love to ride Mia. Not where I live, though.


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## tinyliny

I don't think I'd ever throw a leg over Mia's back.


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## tinyliny

@gottatrot . . I did not mean to try and set myself apart from you. I agree that we have many similar feelings and approaches to horses. what I meant is that I didn't get to follow my love of horse, that just seemed to be 'born' in me . . . not until I was 41. long time lost. so hard to catch up.


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## gottatrot

@*Hondo*, thanks for the great truck advice.



knightrider said:


> Today I trailered Isabeau to a local park to ride with friends. For the first time ever, EVER, Isabeau did not kick even once in the trailer, nor did she kick once going home. I was really happy with her.
> 
> ...On this particular ride, she was worse than usual about not wanting to go back. In fact, a quarter of a mile from the trailer parking area, she began to spin and work her way back out the trail. It was extra humiliating because who should come riding towards me going out the trail, but an old friend of 30 years. How embarrassing that I could not control my horse to simply go home? My long-standing friend and her friend thought it was funny...
> 
> ... "Look at her eyes!" she exclaimed. "She's crazy! Look at her. There's something wrong with her. She's mental!" Well, yeah. I've been knowing that for a good while now. I think most of my friends think Isabeau is just spoiled, and I'm not a good rider or trainer.


Progress with the kicking! I think it's more important that she is progressing with things when she is actually thinking versus not progressing when she "goes tharn." We can't really help them with that. But, hopefully, you will find the key to getting her so she doesn't have to go into that state as often. 
Only good riders and trainers attempt to deal with these things long term! Others give up.

I think you have good friends though, since they laugh instead of getting frustrated. When I lived down the coast, since we had several horses that could lose it, we came up with funny ways to describe it. My friend's horse Cheyenne would go "banana head." My friend said when Cheyenne lost it her brain would go to mush, and would take time to reconstitute back to a solid state again. We said Amore would lose her marble. She only has one marble to start with, so if it rolled out it was difficult to find it and put it back inside her head again. 








Cheyenne aka "Banana Head"​


> (@tinyliny)
> I agree that we have many similar feelings and approaches to horses. what I meant is that I didn't get to follow my love of horse, that just seemed to be 'born' in me . . . not until I was 41. long time lost. so hard to catch up.


That's what I was wondering, what was the divergence. Sorry you had to wait so long to follow your love of horses. It must have seemed like a very long time to you, because I know it did for me (waiting until my 20s to own a horse). My friend in the book "Shania" got her two mini horses at 39 and her first big horse in her 40s. Thankfully she was able to get her horse fix before then with other people's horses, but it wasn't until her 30s that she got to ride regularly. She is making up for lost time, as you are!
Here she is with her mini:








And the Canadian Warmblood, Sage a friend _gave_ her:














Great horse, good jumper. Terrified on trails at first despite all his years of training. :grin:



> @*bsms*) People who haven't experienced it tend to mock it. And/or blame the rider.


Yes, and we can't pretend it's not terribly dangerous when horses lose it. Humor can help to deal with things, but I am sure the most frequent word in the book I wrote about Amore is "terrified." And terrified is what happens to even the bravest person. 
But I confess, I always wanted to ride Mia. But not where @*bsms* had to ride her! There's brave, and there's stupid. Not saying it was stupid to try, but I know if Amore and I had started there, she would have broken me or herself to bits in short order, and it would have been impossible. With Mia it was riding a fine line, but as a horseman, @*bsms* kept trying.


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## Hondo

Round Pen Square Horse: Among a long list of adjectives I can think of to describe my reaction to a very great book, I select POWERFUL.

It both a beautiful and captivating novel, both hilarious and deadly serious at every inch of the way, a textbook of true horsemanship, and also peoplemanship, and a primer for beginner and advanced alike. Written in the context perhaps of a biography, but so much more than a biography. A celebration of the horse. I place it squarely between Rashid's Horses Never Lie and Considering The Horse.

I was deeply moved by the book, connected with it in so many places, and feel it should be published if possible. 

Thank you so much @gottatrot for both writing and sharing this book.


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## egrogan

@Hondo-thanks for summing up your reaction to the book as you did. It captures so much of how I was feeling as well.

Reading the book actually helped me feel braver (which made my horse braver) than usual today and I accomplished a new ride with my own horse I hadn't been confident enough to do so far!


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, thank you for your generous comments. I truly appreciate them.
I remember when reading Considering the Horse how much I agreed with Rashid's viewpoint of trying to understand the "why" of horse behavior. It seems like something good horse people on this forum do also. 
@egrogan, that is what I would wish, that someone would think that if I could struggle along, a flawed trainer with a less than typical horse, and have success riding that horse out in the world, then that is something they could do too. I'd like to hear about the doubts even the best riders have, and the fears, and I am certain it is something we _all_ struggle with.

There are many things to criticize, and I hope to hear some of those things too. The good thing is that with true stories it is too late to say "you shouldn't do this," and instead you can only say, "this is what I did, and this is what happened." I am certain many will say no one should have taken a horse like Amore into a show ring and possibly cause a wreck or ruin someone else's hard earned work. I am sure there are better ways and I have learned some of those and want to continue learning many more. But the most important thing is our relationship with the individual horse, our ability to listen to them and interpret what they are trying to say to us. Our journey is about understanding why the horse is doing what he does, what his feelings are and his motivations. What a beautiful journey it is.


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## gottatrot

For those of you who are interested in the subject of collection. We've had discussions and I continue to read posts from people who talk about how teaching the horse to round the back, move into contact and et cetera will create a horse better balanced and suited to carry a rider. I was looking through some photos and thought I would share what some might find enlightening. This is my own personal proof that contact, "rounding the back," frame and the like have nothing to do with creating a horse that is balanced, can carry a rider more easily, can switch between shortened or extended gaits, or have a stronger back or topline.

These two pictures are of Amore at approx age 16, on the left and approx age 20, on the right. The left hand photo is Amore's body composition after being ridden for about 5 years where I consistently tried to keep her traveling in a proper frame, on contact and using my aids to assist with those things. Lots of arena work. 

The right hand photo is Amore's body composition after being ridden for the next three or four years without trying to keep her on contact and focusing instead on athletic maneuvers at various speeds and over all terrain. Which horse appears to have a stronger back and more athletic build to you? After several years of moving naturally, you can see her neck has developed thicker muscle, and her back, hindquarters and shoulder appear stronger. Her stance is stronger and more balanced. By this time she was capable of things she could never do before, such as pull up sharply and gather herself for tight turns.










This photo on the left is the type of riding that did not develop a strong body: face just in front of or on the vertical, light bit contact, driving and restraining aids applied until the horse felt soft and moving fluidly between the balance of the two. The photo on the right is the type of riding that did develop a strong and balanced body: head held naturally, reins shortened to where they can be applied immediately but without more than a touch of contact, never trying to interfere with the horse's movement or maintain pressure but only used for cues (often I would ride with a completely loose rein as well). A natural, following seat that seeks to balance with the horse lightly rather than drive the horse forward into contact. The horse on the right is a serious athlete.









I have seen this phenomenon with other horses, that the lovely balanced muscled framework comes when they use their bodies naturally and well, and that the imbalanced, odd muscling comes from horses being forced into unnatural positions by the rider.

*****************************************************
Finally got out for a ride today with Halla and Nala. It's been over a week since the rain has been constant. It always rains here in the winter, but there are frequent breaks where you can slip out between showers. But the past week the breaks have been too short and infrequent, and Thanksgiving day we were the rainiest place in the U.S. with 4.4 inches of rain. 

Today it did not rain for our entire ride, and the horses enjoyed their gallops to the extreme. Poor Nala _needs_ her gallops and was a little beside herself until she got it out of her system. She kept looking for something to spook at, but nothing appeared! I adore TBs but they are slightly less creative than Arabs, I must say.

Since I arrived for our ride ten minutes late, when I pulled in I found Nala saddled and her rider ready to go. I'd seen driving in that my horses were waaaay out at the far end of the pasture, so I jogged all the way up the hill and through the gates, not wanting Nala's rider to have to wait long for me. 

Grabbing Halla's halter, I began jogging down the hill into the field. This unexpected sight of me running toward them flummoxed the horses. They galloped in straightaway, tails flying, and Amore looking very perturbed. Once they hit the top of the hill where I was, they stopped suddenly and looked surprised. "Oh, carrots, thanks." I haltered Halla and Amore stared around wildly for a minute or two before diving down to eat some grass and then casually saunter away.


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## knightrider

Hondo said:


> Round Pen Square Horse: Among a long list of adjectives I can think of to describe my reaction to a very great book, I select POWERFUL.
> 
> It both a beautiful and captivating novel, both hilarious and deadly serious at every inch of the way, a textbook of true horsemanship, and also peoplemanship, and a primer for beginner and advanced alike. Written in the context perhaps of a biography, but so much more than a biography. A celebration of the horse. I place it squarely between Rashid's Horses Never Lie and Considering The Horse.
> 
> I was deeply moved by the book, connected with it in so many places, and feel it should be published if possible.
> 
> Thank you so much @gottatrot for both writing and sharing this book.


Everything that Hondo said! This is a terrific book just the way it is. When I finished it, I felt bereft, so sad that there was no more.


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## Hondo

knightrider said:


> Everything that Hondo said! This is a terrific book just the way it is. When I finished it, I felt bereft, so sad that there was no more.


I too was sad that there was no more, but ya know what, my predominant feeling was "lifted" I felt "lifted". Learning is my passion and I learned a lot.

And about "so sad there was no more": Who says there is no more? The creative, talented, and knowledgeable author that wrote that my just have "MORE" up her sleeve somewhere.

?????????????


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## weeedlady

@gottatrot I just finished your book. Enjoyed it very much. Thank you for sharing it with us.


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## gottatrot

Thanks to all who have read through my book. I appreciate any comments or perspectives, critical ones too.

I've spent some time considering saddles recently...decided I really wanted a L & R Rubicon or Solstice. Just like the last time I looked for one, I couldn't find one used in a Wide 17. 
Finally I decided that I might as well try another saddle while waiting for an L & R to show on the market - who knows how long that will take. I toyed with the idea of a western saddle with no horn for awhile, but couldn't quite commit. 

It's not just that I don't want to spend as much as a new one would cost (although that is a major factor). I also don't want to spend so much on a saddle that I ride out in the wind, rain and salty air. I'd rather have one that won't make me feel as though I committed a crime if I forget to wipe it down after some rides.

I sold the treeless Ghost saddle I bought just for Amore (since she is retired), and have a Duett coming in the mail that I bought off Ebay. I hope it fits Halla. Duetts have been on my list of saddles to try. They have wide, flat panels and a hoop tree for round horses. Good reviews online, so we'll see how it goes. It's tricky once you develop a saddle fetish. The urge to buy a new saddle never goes away for very long. 

The model I bought is called "Companion Trail." I am hoping it will give me a better seat with a flatter cantle than my dressage saddle, and slightly more forward flap. I fight a little to keep my leg from getting too far back for balance in the dressage saddle.


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## gottatrot

Sometimes going outside here in the winter is very gloomy. Although I was at the barn by one this afternoon, it was gray as dusk and the skies were glowering. As with most places, there is a time of year on our coast where the weather is less than ideal for outdoor activity. December and January here are the two months where the sun is completely hidden even on the best days, the sky is never blue, and every view of the outdoors would make an appropriate background for a ghost story. 
"It was a dark and stormy...day."
I do appreciate that our temperatures stay above freezing 99% of the time, and understand that what we think of as a warm jacket is more like a light, inner layer in some climates. 

Nala's rider did not respond to my text, so I saddled up Halla to take her out for a ride alone. It was not raining. Therefore, the weather was quite fine. The wind was steady without large gusts. 
The beach was only about forty feet wide. More than half of that was littered with debris, leaving only about ten feet of usable sand; a narrow strip that ran along the pounding waves. The ocean roared and spit foam at us. It had been some time since Halla had gone out to the beach alone. 

We did a very collected canter for a mile down the beach. It was collected enough that Halla was able to shorten her stride and neatly fit between and around all the piles of seaweed, broken branches, large drift logs and the occasional plastic lid or soda pop can that all mixed together in the sand. In my mind we were doing a version of working equitation like the spanish horses do. We had the power, the lift and control to safely maneuver around all the flotsam that could have tripped a horse or made her stumble.

Halla is an amazing horse. The waves today were fourteen feet high and some of the foam balls that came rolling toward us were as large as basketballs. She avoided some things, such as the surf surges that came in too far unexpectedly and some of the foam pieces that seemed large and unpredictable. But she never spooked at one thing. Smaller bits of foam hit her legs and she kept going without flinching. 

After a mile, I realized the tide was coming in even further, and our ten foot strip was under water. It was time to turn around. We couldn't quite avoid all the debris now as there was not always a pathway around it, so we had to intersperse some trotting between our canter strides for safety. Halla was fine with it because she saw the necessity. She prefers not to trot if she can canter, but if there is a good reason to actually trot, she will. 

Once we got back to the field near the barn, Halla got a bit snorty and wouldn't settle into a calm walk. I let her prance for awhile before asking her to slow, and then continued up the hill to gather Amore and take her out for a short pony ride. Halla appreciated having Amore come along, and began to cool down nicely. I stopped to get off and let both horses graze for awhile, and they were pleased to find some taller grass that had not been cropped short like the grass in their pasture.


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## Hondo

I'm wondering if you sit around dreaming up logical reasons to go spend more money on your horse? 

I'll admit that I do.

Is Amore completely retired never to be ridden again? Have you discussed this with Amore? I must have missed you saying she's retired in a previous post.

Glad she gets ponied. I almost feel I know her now. Hondo seems happier when I'm ponying someone along with us.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I'm wondering if you sit around dreaming up logical reasons to go spend more money on your horse?


Yes, I do.  But they are _very_ logical reasons. 



Hondo said:


> Is Amore completely retired never to be ridden again? Have you discussed this with Amore? I must have missed you saying she's retired in a previous post.


I am calling Amore retired, but I'm not saying I'll never ride her again. What I will do is not ask her to work anymore, or to maintain a level of fitness. From what I've seen this year, I believe with her small size, age and Cushing's she can't handle what she used to. She is a very small horse, and she could probably do a bit of work still with an 80 lb rider (I said that to Nala's rider and she said, "Yes, but it would have to be a very good and strong little rider!"). But even my weight of 125 lbs is a lot for her to balance and support now. 
I intend to hop on for short walking rides now and again, and to take her out for walks and ponying. Amore is not that old, just shy of 26, but Cushing's has taken a toll on her. Without it I am certain she would have been worked into her 30s.

The treeless saddle I sold was one I bought that fit Amore but not Halla. I have another one that fits Halla, but also fits Amore fine. The main issue was the straighter flap, and I can ride Amore with a much longer leg because she is very smooth. Amore's long trot was always to die for. You could hover an inch above the saddle and she would extend so far that Nala had to stretch way out too, and she's a much bigger horse. She could cruise at the trot much faster than many horses canter, and it was her perfect endurance gait.
Halla is too rough to ride with a long stirrup easily. But the other saddles I have fit Amore too, so if I want to ride her I can.

My new saddle came last night. Unfortunately, I worked last night so wasn't able to get out until late this afternoon to see how it fit Halla. So far I think it fits fine.
























Sadly, my camera didn't care for the low light at 4 p.m. so most of the pictures were very blurry. 
Unfortunately, whenever Halla is as fit as a racehorse she also looks like a race horse. What I wouldn't do to fatten that horse up. 8 lbs of oats and 1 lb of COB don't seem to make a difference, but I guess she'd be _quite_ thin without it. I've been upping the oats to see how many pounds she can physically eat. I've heard some racehorses put away more than 10 lbs. She's not a very dedicated eater, but seems to finish her oats even if she leaves some COB sometimes.

I took Halla and Amore out to the outdoor arena to try out the saddle in the last few minutes of daylight. Our newest boarder was trying to lead her large and energetic two year old and told me my horses were so well behaved. :smile: The horse seems to scare her, but she was doing well enough. Another boarder was giving her some good advice.

It made me realize I do just take my horses out when they are planning to go in and have dinner, and I tie them for a bit, or take them out to the arena. I expect them to do what I ask, regardless. 

When I say "expect," it doesn't imply I forced any manners on them. They are just resigned, knowing that my stubbornness and strength of will are too strong for them. It does no good to fuss or protest, because even if they were to go away from the barn bucking and snorting, I'd still drag them up to the arena and ride. After a time, horses just give up on people who are so persistent. Punishment can turn into something interesting, or a game. Stubbornness is much more difficult to resist, like a tidal wave it just keeps coming and there's nothing a poor horse can do to combat it.

Amore grazed around the arena while I got on Halla to try out the saddle. I wouldn't want it any lower in the front, but there is a couple fingers of clearance between the pommel and the withers. The balance seemed very nice. An elk herd was grazing 100 ft away from the arena, so Halla kept an eye on them. They were eating and sleeping and not too interested in us. Amore didn't care about them at all, but stuffed herself on the barely edible, woody tussock that had sprung up in places around the arena. She loves the stuff and used to stand up to her shoulders in one swampy pasture eating the water plants like a moose. 

Until I take the saddle for a good gallop, I won't know how it will behave but it seemed promising. I appreciated the flatter cantle than my dressage saddle and the thigh block was out of my way. The stirrup placement seemed ideal, so I will see how that changes over rougher ground. Of course tomorrow I am working but the forecast says it will be clear skies for once. I wish I weren't too ethical to call in sick for work so I could ride.


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## Hondo

I was actually more than a bit worried about Amore but am now relieved. 

Some people seem to just stay thin no matter what they eat. Maybe that's at least part of what keeps Halla thin. Wishing Hondo had some of those genes. 

All three are actually a bit on the heavy side. When they say they are hungry I'm a push over. When Hondo has not had enough he will go stand in front of the building where the hay is stored. If I'm outside he will turn his head occasionally to give me a look, "I'm not leaving here until I get some more to eat".


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## weeedlady

@gottatrot that is a nice looking saddle!


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## phantomhorse13

A friend has a Duett for one of her horses and I got to spend a weekend at a ride sitting in it. I liked it very much, so hope you find yours equally pleasant. Look forward to the ride report (hope the weather gives you a break and you get saddle time period).

Have you tried a fat supplement with Halla? I have had some good results with flax seed, even with a picky eater (and it's relatively inexpensive which is also nice).


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> A friend has a Duett for one of her horses and I got to spend a weekend at a ride sitting in it. I liked it very much, so hope you find yours equally pleasant.
> 
> Have you tried a fat supplement with Halla? I have had some good results with flax seed, even with a picky eater (and it's relatively inexpensive which is also nice).


Glad to hear a good report of another Duett saddle.

Thanks for the suggestion, that's a good idea to try again. The trick I have is what to add the fat to in case it makes Halla boycott whatever I put it with. But I am thinking I can add another feed pan and put some oats with the fat - it she eats it that would be a bonus but not take away other calories. 

When she had her vitamin E deficiency I fed her a lot of fat because at first I thought she might have PSSM. She doesn't like rice bran, she ate BOSS for awhile but then stopped, and she didn't like the dry fat I tried such as Cool Calories. She did eat a little flax or corn oil if I didn't give too much, so I will try that again. Those are concentrated calories. 
@Hondo, when I've tried to slim down Amore in the past I thought having a very easy keeper was the worst. I can't say which is worse. I've seen how difficult it is for people to have horses that can't be on grass and have to be on dry lot part of the time. But with my two, it is much easier to limit Amore's hay so she doesn't get fat versus trying to get Halla to eat more than she will. I think her digestive system might have lost some ability to digest all her food properly when she was starved. This is combined with the fact that she is easily distracted from eating. In the field, Amore rarely looks up from the grass. Halla is always going over to the fence to see what other horses are doing, telling Amore and Nala where to go, and running around. 

She is very picky too. Amore will eat anything that seems slightly edible. Halla doesn't like alfalfa at all, and has a whole list of foods she doesn't care to eat. Every time I think I've found the best thing to feed her, and she gains a few pounds (such as Purina Ultium), she decides she doesn't care for it anymore. After giving up on a dozen complete feeds, she has eaten oats for the longest so I hope she will just keep liking them. It's tricky though because I have to give her a lot of calcium to balance out the phosphorus in the oats. Amore would just eat TUMs out of my hand. Halla has to have an unflavored calcium powder mixed in a syringe and hand fed daily.

We always have_ the best_ hay, too. The barn owner gets the most green, beautiful orchard grass or timothy and all the horses love it. But Halla always has a nice pile of it left in the morning. She doesn't have ulcers, but sometimes I wonder if there is some benign tumor in there that keeps her from eating as much roughage. If it were cancerous, it would have killed her by now. But she's also never colicked, so I've never had cause to scan her insides. She is energetic, doesn't have the muscle issues now that she gets the vitamin E, her coat is glossy and her eyes are bright. I've done all the blood work and it has always been normal.

Amore always had the metabolism for endurance. Yet she was difficult to train alone because she didn't have the drive to go out at a good pace. Halla has a good drive and conditions easily, but she burns off too much energy and it is difficult to feed her enough to compensate.


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## gottatrot

This afternoon I was able to take the Duett saddle out for a real test ride. 

Today it sounded like there would be some breaks in the rain, so Nala's rider and I planned to ride. Usually if the forecast says 1/4" or less, it will be tolerable enough. 

How can I complain? I understand most of this continent is socked in with snow right now. The temp was in the 40s, and it rained some on our ride but it wasn't too cold and my legs were only slightly wet inside my "rain pants" that have a hole in them so are no longer waterproof. 

It's not really the weather I mind, it's the short days. In order to get a run and a ride in today, I had to run at 7:30 a.m. after my 12 hour shift, sleep 5 hours and then get up to ride. I probably would have wimped out on the run, but I asked my husband to bring the dog since he was picking me up at work. I couldn't disappoint the dog; he knew we were running so I had to get out there. 
Even cutting my sleep that much, we got back from our ride to the barn just as darkness was settling in. 

Halla was feeling extremely superior to Nala today. She just exuded disdain, especially because Nala had not been out for a gallop since the last ride we'd done together (Halla has been out twice since then) and she was feeling very edgy. Nala kept bursting forward into a trot, and her rider circled her back. This was on the half mile warm up walk we always do down to the beach. Halla walked extra slowly, looking away as if she couldn't be bothered to notice what Nala was doing. It was all a show. Now mind you, Halla will often take Nala's cues and trot to catch up when we go toward the beach. Today she was saying that no matter what Nala did, she was going to do her own thing. 

The saddle felt nice, and the stirrup bar placement quite ideal.

We got to the beach and Halla continued sauntering along at a walk. Finally I tired of the game, so asked her to trot and then canter. Both horses showed their true colors and the pent up energy we knew was in there had to come out. Halla galloped a bit madly for awhile. My stirrups were too short. After about a mile we stopped and walked, and I got off to fix my stirrups.

We continued at different paces, sometimes getting drenched by the rain. It was great to have my Macwet gloves and rubber reins. No concerns about the reins slipping out of my grasp if I didn't pay attention. 

By the time we'd gone three miles, I knew. I don't like the Duett saddle. It's a very nice saddle, and Halla moved out fine. The twist is just a tad wide and put a strain on my hips, and the balance is just not quite right for me as a rider. I like the stirrup placement a lot, but it's just not a great saddle for me. The seat was rather slippery too, which I could deal with if everything else was good. But after our ride my back hurt, and I found I didn't want to gallop at all on the way home, but only canter. 

But as I told my husband, every time I get a saddle I learn something. Nala's rider and I had a good discussion and I believe I've concluded that the best type of saddle for the riding we do is a dressage saddle. That hasn't seemed right to me. I thought that something closer to an eventing saddle would be more ideal. But as Nala's rider said, the balance point is too high in so many jumping and all purpose saddles. This means we sometimes have to put our stirrups even longer than we do in our dressage saddles to compensate. That's what I found in the Duett. My stirrups had to go down extra long to keep my balance point low for galloping.

I don't really _need_ another saddle, so I guess I will put the Duett back on Ebay and keep an eye out for another saddle I'd like to try. 

We do have our own odd style of riding. It's well suited to our horses. We do some walking, just a little trotting, lots of cantering and several gallops each ride. The Duett was great for walking and the stirrup bar placement made trotting very easy since the movement lifted me naturally into the proper position. With cantering, it felt a little off balance but not too bad, but galloping was not good. I couldn't get my weight deep or back even with my joints well flexed, and had a bit of a perched feeling. 

Bummer. Oh well, someone has to keep UPS in business.
After reading about the rides @bsms and @Bondre had recently, I thought I was going to have a great ride in my new saddle too. It wasn't quite that wonderful. 

So if I was going to make my current dressage saddle "perfect," I'd put the stirrup bar just a tiny bit farther forward, raise the pommel a little bit and lower the cantle. I guess I'll keep my eye out for something like that.


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## gottatrot

NERD ALERT:

I am working on trying to understand a couple different things.

The first is about the true action of an english hackamore. Now that I'm regularly riding in one, I want to know more about it. How I've been told it works and what it does is not matching up with my practical experience. 
The english hackamore sits on my horse's face with the shanks in this position:









I also looked at an interesting post on this thread about hackamore action:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/hackamore-question-shank-shape-116335/

The first question I have already disproven: like other curbs I've been told apply poll pressure, it does not. Today when I was riding, I pulled back on the reins to create contact and at the same time I was still able to lift the crown up in the air behind my horse's ears. The cheekpiece just rotates to a different area of the hole where it attaches, and does not apply pressure to the poll.

What I am trying to figure out is how the noseband factors in to the action of how it works. I was trying to use it with the curb chain fairly loose. But this did not seem to work. 

It's different from a curb bit, because it has a noseband. To me, this seems to limit the amount of pressure one can apply on the curb strap, and if the curb strap is too loose it will barely engage at all. 
A curb bit can rotate and keep rotating as long as the rider pulls on the reins. The limiting factor (I believe) is the width of the lower jaw. Obviously, this would be a terrible amount of pressure to apply, if you were to keep pulling until the action was stopped by the width of the tongue and jaw. 

But with the hackamore, the pressure limit on the curb strap seems limited by the noseband. At some point when pulling back, the noseband stops the rotation. So if the curb strap is very loose, it may not be able to physically engage from a ridden position. You'd have to raise your hands very high to rotate the shanks upward to apply more pressure. The reins would have to be very short and up above the horse's neck to accomplish this. 

I was wondering why I seemed to need my curb to be touching the horse's face in the hackamore when the bridle was on and neutral. Otherwise, when riding the curb did not seem to engage if I pulled back on the reins. The shank can only rotate so far before being stopped by the noseband. I think if you applied a noseband over the top of a curb bit (connected through the headstall rings), it would have the same negating effect on the curb strap. 

My thick, neoprene noseband seems to engage before the curb chain. It also seems to negate some of the chain action, only letting it squeeze so tight. Which is why I have noticed that despite what people say about you should never ride in this leverage device with contact, whenever I contact the shanks with my reins, my mare does not act like there is contact until I apply a bit of pressure. More pressure than one would apply, for instance, to make light contact with a snaffle.

Any idea if I am right or wrong about this?


The second is more of a physics question. It relates to pressure, the pressure we apply to a horse and how that changes with the speed of the horse. My husband understands physics a lot better than I do, and I was trying to get him to understand my question so he could help me out with it. 
I wondered if the pressure we apply to the bit or bridle is the same when the horse is standing still or moving, and how that pressure changes as the horse goes faster and faster.

It feels as though the pressure the rider applies diminishes as a horse increases in speed. I'm saying this as a rider who can ride from the core and maintain a strong base. Regardless of how well planted and strong I feel, it seems to require more pressure to initiate the same type of contact with a horse as the horse goes faster and faster. I was asking Nala's rider about this, and she believed it might have to do with the horse stretching out in extension. As the horse's neck gets longer, that would mean it would require more leverage to apply the same amount of force on that distant point (I believe). So if X amount of contact will ask a horse to slow or stop at the walk, X would not necessarily increase at the trot if the neck was not longer, but X would increase when a horse extended out into a gallop. 

My husband thought it might be due to the kinetic energy that is released from the muscles as the horse increases in speed. The horse is releasing more energy and is more powerful, so to combat that energy the rider has to use more strength to oppose that energy. 

I thought it might have something to do with velocity: the horse moving away from the pressure at a higher rate of speed.

For those who don't agree with contact necessarily, I am speaking mainly of rating the horse. Probably there are some horses and people who can rate at the gallop on a loose rein. I don't know how, myself, so must use the reins. If we want the full stretched gallop to turn into a slower gallop, we use the reins to tell the horse to slow. I've always wished the pressure required to do this was similar to what is used to slow the horse at a trot. But it seems to me that this pressure goes up at the canter, and up at the gallop and up more at the fastest gallop. So I am wondering if this is more of a physics problem than it is a horse responsiveness issue. 

Any ideas?


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> What I am trying to figure out is how the noseband factors in to the action of how it works. I was trying to use it with the curb chain fairly loose. But this did not seem to work.


I haven't used an English hackamore but I suppose the action of the zilco flower is essentially the same. I think that the action is divided between the noseband and the curb strap, in a direct proportion to the relative placements of their attachments with respect to the attachment of the cheek piece. The further their attachment is placed from the cheek piece attachment, the greater their proportion of the action. 

But this is assuming both noseband and curb strap are adjusted with an equal tension. If you leave the curb strap loose then it will take more rein tension for it to act, but the noseband will start to act before the curb strap and will thus take over a higher proportion of the action than if you have both straps adjusted with equal tension. 

Or at least that's how it seems to me. So I agree that the noseband


gottatrot said:


> seems to limit the amount of pressure one can apply on the curb strap, and if the curb strap is too loose it will barely engage at all


 and that


gottatrot said:


> the pressure limit on the curb strap seems limited by the noseband.





gottatrot said:


> The second is more of a physics question. It relates to pressure, the pressure we apply to a horse and how that changes with the speed of the horse. ....
> It feels as though the pressure the rider applies diminishes as a horse increases in speed. I'm saying this as a rider who can ride from the core and maintain a strong base. Regardless of how well planted and strong I feel, it seems to require more pressure to initiate the same type of contact with a horse as the horse goes faster and faster.
> 
> I was asking Nala's rider about this, and she believed it might have to do with the horse stretching out in extension. As the horse's neck gets longer, that would mean it would require more leverage to apply the same amount of force on that distant point (I believe). So if X amount of contact will ask a horse to slow or stop at the walk, X would not necessarily increase at the trot if the neck was not longer, but X would increase when a horse extended out into a gallop.


I think she has a point, and also because of the angle of the horse's head in comparison to your reins. At the walk and trot there is a much greater angle between the reins and the head - almost 90' I'd the horse is 'collected' and probably around 60' at a relaxed pace. Whereas at the gallop this angle may be reduced to less than 45'. I haven't got time to look for photos to back up this assertion and offer better figures on this right now, but off the top of my head I'd say those figures are about right. 

I know that if you're leading a horse and it tries to bolt forwards, if you apply pressure laterally to the lead rope (90') it's much easier to stop them than if you pull straight backwards (0'). So I imagine the same might be the case when you're riding, and that the greater angle between the head and the reins (angle in a vertical plane rather than lateral plane as in the lead rope example I gave) then the more responsive the horse is to pressure from the reins. 



gottatrot said:


> My husband thought it might be due to the kinetic energy that is released from the muscles as the horse increases in speed. The horse is releasing more energy and is more powerful, so to combat that energy the rider has to use more strength to oppose that energy.


The inertia of the horse is certainly greater but that should just mean that it requires more effort to stop, not that the rein action is less efficient at higher speeds. 



gottatrot said:


> I thought it might have something to do with velocity: the horse moving away from the pressure at a higher rate of speed.


I don't think so, as your velocity relative to the horse is zero at all times while you're correctly seated. Of course if you fall off then your relative velocity rapidly increases as you lie writhing on the ground and your horse speeds away ;-)

I believe that the horse's reaction to contact is also an important factor.


gottatrot said:


> If we want the full stretched gallop to turn into a slower gallop, we use the reins to tell the horse to slow. I've always wished the pressure required to do this was similar to what is used to slow the horse at a trot. But it seems to me that this pressure goes up at the canter, and up at the gallop and up more at the fastest gallop. So I am wondering if this is more of a physics problem than it is a horse responsiveness issue.


I habitually increase the contact at higher gaits, and I believe you also ride like this. So in fact we have inadvertently trained our horses to ignore a constant contact at speed. Or even that a constant light pressure on the face is a cue for speed. So the situation gets more complicated to understand as the physics is mixed with questions of training. 

Those are my ideas....


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> The inertia of the horse is certainly greater but that should just mean that it requires more effort to stop, not that the rein action is less efficient at higher speeds.


Great answers, more food for thought. Makes sense.



Bondre said:


> I don't think so, as your velocity relative to the horse is zero at all times while you're correctly seated. Of course if you fall off then your relative velocity rapidly increases as you lie writhing on the ground and your horse speeds away ;-)


This is perfect!!


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## Hondo

These finer points of riding really leave me feeling my rank beginner status. But that's ok, it stimulates my gray matter.

I don't understand a balance point of a saddle being too high or too low, or what that balance point means.

...................................................................................................................................

I do remember being advised to shorten my reins when trotting or galloping to keep the horse between my legs. And it did seem to have an effect of increased control.

Pondering on this, I'm wondering if it has less to do with the physics of the angle the reins make with the horse's mouth and more to do with the fact that the horse's head is going through more forceful and faster gyrations than when walking which results in the reins near the horse's mouth and the bit gyrating more also which covers up any signals which would be read by the horse at a walk.

But I'm just a beginner out pondering at the walk.

As far as physics, with the horse's head more parallel to the ground at the gallop compared to say 45 degrees to the ground at the walk, there would be less pressure on the gums at the gallop, but more pressure on the lips. If the gums are more sensitive to pressure than the lips, (which i don't know), then that could account for needing more pressure at the trot or gallop than at the walk.

As I sit pondering, I'm leaning toward the idea that the relative sensitivity of the gums versus the lips may be the larger of the reason.


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## bsms

Interesting conversation! Long post warning!

FWIW: Mia at a walk and our very first full stop from a canter...odd that I can remember this stop very clearly years later:








​ 







​ 
Bandit at a walk & canter. I'm not holding his head in, just moving the left rein against his neck to get him to angle away from Cowboy & my wife:








​ 







​ 
Bandit naturally carries his head steeper than Mia, but both carry their heads steeper when slow than when fast. Given that horses have a narrow, horizontal band of near human vision that can only be moved by moving their head, it makes perfect sense that they would stick their nose out more going fast. Maybe to help breathing, but it is also the only way they can see things in time to stop or adjust. I can only guess, but I think Bandit carries his head steeper due to a difference in his eye structure - the horizontal band of dense receptors is located at a different spot than with Mia.

Get a horse racing in a snaffle, and this results:








​ 
It is a bit of an odd picture, but the snaffle is a linear bit that pulls straight back against the molars. The horse can run comfortably with the bit against its teeth - either having the "bit in his teeth" - a term that goes back to the 1600s - or right next to clenched teeth. That was why Mia needed a curb bit to learn control at speed. In a snaffle, she could stretch her head out deliberately and take away any objectionable pressure in her mouth. It required repeated blows using a very harsh pulley rein stop to get her to listen.

In a curb, the bit rotates, so the pressure goes against the bars and tongue. Only the rider gets to release the pressure.

But if the shanks are swept back, and the horse has a fairly vertical head like Bandit, another problem arises - even with a curb. Tie a 30 lb weight to a tree. Moving the weight to one side is easy. Now tie a rope to the weight, and pull on the rope until both ropes form a perfectly straight line. You cannot do it.

A pull like that has two vectors - horizontal and vertical. As you raise the weight, more and more of your pull is converted into a horizontal vector, and less and less goes into a vertical vector. Pulling the two ropes perfectly straight would require infinite force.

So MY guess is that two things happen. Depending on the shank shape and looseness of the curb, and how much the horse stretches its head (or not), your pull can become less mechanically efficient AND you might not get enough pull to ever tighten the curb strap.

Without a curb strap on a hackamore, you should get to where the nosepiece is largely sliding on top of the nose rather than applying downward pressure. You are now like I was with Mia, on a horse who can ignore you. The same if it is too loose.

An excited horse is like a kid on the playground who wants to keep playing. The kid hasn't 'lost respect' for Mommy...but Mommy may need to be more demanding to get the kid to listen.

I get nervous at speed, but I think it is reasonable to ride a fast horse with more contact. If you see bad footing ahead, you have less reaction time before you get to the bad footing. I can get away with a lot of slack at a walk but it would get me in trouble if I needed a quick response from my horse at a gallop.

Bandit is in a sidepull halter in the canter picture. It obviously has little slop in how I set the sidepull. I was paying more attention to moving my arms in rhythm with his noggin than my position, but a sidepull should not hang loose on a horse. If it does, one gets this - and almost no control:








​
In that picture, I'm riding based on Trooper's good will. I honestly have zero control if things get wild. I haven't tried the sort of hackamore you are using, but it wouldn't both me to adjust it with very little play. It would be pretty hard to actually harm a horse in a hackamore like that or with a Zilco Flower.

When I rode Bandit the other day in his incredibly cruel Tom Thumb bit, I let him eat. When I wanted him to stop eating, I pulled with far greater pressure than I used at any time in the ride. He didn't gape his mouth, fling his head, etc. It just took a hard pull to convince him to stop eating and start moving. Bandit CHOSE to keep eating until the pressure got much stronger. It was HIS choice. Not mine. And he got release as soon as his head came up, and he didn't get upset in any way. We just resumed riding and he remained calm as could be.

I don't think it is pressure per se that annoys a horse. I think it is unfair pressure that annoys them. Jerk on Bandit in a snaffle for no reason and he'll give attitude. Pull very hard on a Tom Thumb because he wants to continue eating...and he doesn't mind. Seems to me it would take a deliberate act to be "unfair" in most bitless bridles.


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## bsms

Curb strap adjustment - this is something I realized just the other day. Bandit in his Tom Thumb:








​ 
I adjust it for 45-60 degrees of rotation before the curb strap tightens, but I do so at a stop. However, it catches while moving up vertically against his angled jaw. As he speeds up and stretches out, it will hang more perpendicularly to his jaw and thus need more rotation for the curb to tighten. I don't think I'll use a curb often with him. But when I do, I may need a tighter curb strap to keep it functioning right at speed - which is really the only time I need it.


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## gottatrot

Very interesting! 

I hadn't thought about the angle of the head and how it affects the action of the bit or hackamore. Thinking of how those cheekpieces sit on Halla's face, when she gallops they must go closer to horizontal. That means the action will be different. I can see how the Tom Thumb on Bandit would require more rotation to engage as his head position changes. This must be a principle with any leverage device; that how the cheekpieces and curb strap sit on the horse will affect the amount of rotation required for engagement.

There is something else I was thinking about. Force = mass x acceleration. So would the force of the horse moving into the bit or headgear require a greater opposing force to equal the same amount of force applied at a slower speed?

Here's how most of the horses I've ridden have been. Many will stop with a squeeze of the fingers and release at the walk. But they will require a light pull and release at the trot, and the squeeze will only give them a shortening. This is probably from training, as @Bondre says. They are taught to move into that pressure at the trot, because we want them to "half halt" or gather themselves to prepare for a change in direction or gait change. 

Then at the canter, that pull and release requires a little more pressure to either drop down a gait, or else to gather up. Is this because of the increased head and neck motion, or because the angle of the bit has changed? I have noticed the pressure required seems less when the horse is more rounded over. Is this due to their hind end being more engaged (as people believe, collected), or is it due to their head is lowered so the action of the bit is felt more by the horse? Some feel in this position the horse is more compliant. But what is the actual cause?

At the gallop, the pressure is more. It's not that we apply pressure great enough to stop the horse or control them. I think they learn to respond to a certain amount of pressure, but this seems greater at higher speeds. I feel that even with horses where the rider has begun with the least amount possible, the horse will require a certain amount/incentive to get to the point where he responds.

Probably, it is a number of factors. If the neck is stretched out and moving, the bit or hackamore angle will change and it might require more pull to engage. It may rest against the teeth or slide up the nose to where the horse does not notice its affect as much.
The horse's force against the bit might be greater because of their mass and acceleration, which might require a greater pulling force to create the same tension backward as one might have at the walk. The horse is probably releasing endorphins that dull their sensitivity to pressure. The horse mentally is excited and also doing complicated things with their body, which reduces the focus on the rider. 

All of this is important to me because I want to understand all of this more before I train my next horse in a few years. 

Here's an article about balance point in saddles. It is talking about english and jumping saddles, but the principle applies to all saddles. Based on your height, how your legs fall and the length of your stirrup, the flat part of the saddle seat where you need to sit will either fall in a good position or it will disrupt your balance. As the rider goes faster or jumps, this affects them more. 
How Saddle Design Affects Your Riding Form | EquiSearch

I wish there was a way to understand how much contact versus loose rein was related to training versus temperament. Is it 50/50...more? For a little while I was thinking it was mainly a training issue. But I've been thinking more and it is interesting that I trained Amore to ride on contact, but she picked up going on a loose rein immediately when it was offered to her. When I use contact with her for cues, she is either extremely light and will respond to voice, weight shift, and rein shifts or she completely ignores any cue and requires a lot of pressure to listen. This seems reliant on her mental state at the time.

When I brought Halla into the arena the other day for a ride, she also was going around without contact, responding to my weight shifts, voice cues, and a touch of the reins. She used to not be able to do this, but she has mellowed very slightly in the past year, her body is very strong and more balanced, and somehow galloping madly around creates this more willing horse. 
So my point is both horses can be ridden like that, but yet often can't. It's training, and it's not.


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## Hondo

Thanks for the link. Now I know, or at least have an idea. Twenty years ago, maybe, today, we walk and are happy to still be doing that.

As for F=MA, according to Albert, since you are going at the same speed as the horse, even if the horse is accelerating, the relative velocity between you and your horse is zero.

I'm not certain I'm seeing what is in your mind, but I don't see where F=MA would apply. Well, one exception, when Hondo used to spin and bolt I was accelerated partly by holding on to the reins, (one reason as a beginner I like Cook's), but I know that is not a consideration with you.

The third thing you mentioned, the masking associated with adrenaline I had not thought of but I'll bet that is a big part along with the other two.

Lots of stuff going on at speed.

The thing I really like about packing is I've got a ready made excuse to go slow!


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## tinyliny

@gottatrot you might actually like the saddle I have on X right now. It's a Schleese. I often complain how uncomfortable it is, and it IS, at least to me. the twist is so narrow that I feel my coxyx too much on the seat part. however, the super narrow twist puts me in a good position, and allows for that "clothes pin" sort of grip that give good contact and stability from pee-pee to knee/calf.

it looks something like this

Schleese EAS Special Plus 17 1/2" MW Dressage Saddle Dabbs Fittings Used | eBay

the thigh blocks are removable. I never use them.

It's not comfy, but it does put me very close to the horse, in a good position. more intimate than any other dressage saddle I've used.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> @gottatrot you might actually like the saddle I have on X right now. It's a Schleese.


That looks like a nice saddle. I've looked at Schleese saddles at a horse expo and they seemed well made. I'll have to keep my eye out for one in a wide tree. Do you think the seat itself would be comfortable if it wasn't too narrow for you?
@Hondo:
I probably should stop trying to wrap my mind around physics. For some reason other complicated subjects seem more understandable to me. 
It does sound right that as you and @Bondre said, the relative change in velocity is zero because you continue moving with the horse. 
So if it does take greater force from the rider to slow the horse down, it's related to the physics of the bit, the state of the horse and also perhaps the movement and energy of the neck muscles. 


I found a very good article that debates what position is most efficient and stable for galloping.

In Search Of The Most Balanced Gallop | The Chronicle of the Horse


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## bsms

Interesting article. This is something I've seen before, but challenges what I was taught about the forward seat:

"_But Wofford, who said he started seeing the standing position more often in this country five or six years ago, cited a study released in 2009 by the Royal Veterinary College at the University of London, which stated that the crouched position jockeys adopted around 1900, as opposed to the upright, seated position they’d practiced previously, helped improve racing times by *five to seven percent*. It’s a rate of improvement that hasn’t been seen in the last 100 years._"

In another article, he says race times made that improvement from 1890-1900, when jockeys all switched from riding with long legs to short ones. From 1900 on, there has been a 1% improvement in times - thus suggesting that getting all the way off the back gives the horse around a 6% mechanical advantage.

For racing, that is HUGE - 400 feet in a 1.25 mile race. But for recreational riding...it is the difference between going 8 miles at a canter/gallop, and going 8.5 miles at that speed. I'm hard pressed to find a place where Bandit can go fast for 1/4 mile before running into rocks, so I don't know how important 8 vs 8.5 miles would be. As a jogger, the difference between 4 miles and 4.25 miles is trivial to me - if I'm not racing.

That suggests the penalty to my horse if I stay on his back isn't nearly as great as what VS Littauer and other proponents of the forward seat claimed. I think he oversold the forward seat. 

*Heresy!* ​ 
I hope his ghost doesn't rise up to haunt me...

This, from post 532, fascinated me:

"_By the time we'd gone three miles, I knew. I don't like the Duett saddle. It's a very nice saddle, and Halla moved out fine. The twist is just a tad wide and put a strain on my hips, and the balance is just not quite right for me as a rider. I like the stirrup placement a lot, but it's just not a great saddle for me. The seat was rather slippery too, which I could deal with if everything else was good. But after our ride my back hurt, and I found I didn't want to gallop at all on the way home, but only canter. 

But as I told my husband, every time I get a saddle I learn something. Nala's rider and I had a good discussion and I believe *I've concluded that the best type of saddle for the riding we do is a dressage saddle*. That hasn't seemed right to me. I thought that something closer to an eventing saddle would be more ideal. But as Nala's rider said, the balance point is too high in so many jumping and all purpose saddles. This means we sometimes have to put our stirrups even longer than we do in our dressage saddles to compensate. That's what I found in the Duett. My stirrups had to go down extra long to keep my balance point low for galloping_." - @*gottatrot* 

That goes totally against what I learned from Littauer, Chamberlin and other proponents of the forward seat. It shocked me, actually. Never seen anyone suggest a dressage saddle might be a superior galloping saddle. But it makes sense, in light of what I've concluded about Littauer and my own non-galloping riding. If I continue thinking about getting an English saddle for Bandit, maybe I need to think 'dressage saddle' instead of 'forward seat' - particularly for where I ride. But it certainly bursts some of my preconceived bubbles...:think:

:cheers:​


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## tinyliny

with regards to the Schleese, I have a sheepskin pad I put on. it makes it ok. however, I ride seated , except for some intervals of posting trot, for alike an hour and a half. that's when it starts to hurt my coccyx. you spend more time standing in the stirrups, off the seat, so it may feel different for you.

take a photo of the Duette , looking straight down on it, so we can see the twist.


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## gottatrot

Here's a photo of the different twist on the Duett trail saddle versus the L & R dressage saddle:








The dressage saddle doesn't have an extremely narrow twist, but you can see it's much narrower than the Duett.

I also took a photo of the stirrup placement so I could try to see why it feels so different.








The red line shows the distance between the stirrup leather and where I sit. That also ends up being where the balance point is when out of the saddle. The shorter distance means I have to put less angle into my joints or else I disrupt the balance. Both saddles are 17", so I think I could solve the problem by riding in a 17.5" dressage saddle. 




bsms said:


> ...For racing, that is HUGE - 400 feet in a 1.25 mile race. But for recreational riding...it is the difference between going 8 miles at a canter/gallop, and going 8.5 miles at that speed. I'm hard pressed to find a place where Bandit can go fast for 1/4 mile before running into rocks, so I don't know how important 8 vs 8.5 miles would be. As a jogger, the difference between 4 miles and 4.25 miles is trivial to me - if I'm not racing.
> 
> That suggests the penalty to my horse if I stay on his back isn't nearly as great as what VS Littauer and other proponents of the forward seat claimed. I think he oversold the forward seat...
> 
> ... Never seen anyone suggest a dressage saddle might be a superior galloping saddle. But it makes sense, in light of what I've concluded about Littauer and my own non-galloping riding. If I continue thinking about getting an English saddle for Bandit, maybe I need to think 'dressage saddle' instead of 'forward seat' - particularly for where I ride. But it certainly bursts some of my preconceived bubbles...


It's been hard for me to wrap my mind around it too - it doesn't seem right. But we are not trying to make the horses more efficient, ourselves. We're usually trying to take the edge off their energy so they will be able to rate themselves better over the rest of a longer distance. So our goal is a bit different than someone who is racing. We don't want to interfere, we want to go with the horse and be connected and balanced. But if their gallop is not as efficient, that's probably going to do more for our ride. 

I thought it was interesting that the riders like Dutton defend their riding position based on their height and build. I think that makes a lot of sense. I can't imagine a rider like Fox-Pitt would be able to get as much angle as a jockey, due to the length of his long bones.








But he must be amazingly athletic as well as flexible because he can adopt a quite flexed position too.








On the other hand, I think his height allows him to create a balance point that actually goes behind the saddle sometimes, which I don't think most riders could do. 

I thought this article from the same author who wrote the first one I linked to had an interesting point.


> As an aside, I do not like a galloping position that is too high above the horse's back. The farther apart you and your horse are, the greater chance there is for miscommunication. For example, flat race jockeys ride incredibly short, but they keep their seat bones quite close to their horses' backs. You will find that it is extremely difficult to hold your seat bones a consistent distance above your horse's back when riding with very short leathers unless you are extremely fit. This explains why most upper-level riders ride cross-country with their leathers one or two holes too long: They are secretly not fit enough. Used correctly by a fit rider, short leathers do not mean that the rider will be high above her horse. If you think about it, once you take your seat bones off the saddle, it doesn't matter if they are one inch above your horse's back, or one foot your weight is now carried in your knees, not on your horse's back.


I think this is why me and Nala's rider both adopt the less angled position. Over time it requires more muscle energy. That is fine for sprint race distances, which would be similar in my mind to a 5k race. After that point, the rider would get fatigued more quickly unless adopting a position that will be more efficient over more miles. 
Nala's rider goes in a Prestige dressage saddle. She has several saddles that are designed for eventing or jumping and she's tried them but feels much more stable in her dressage saddle.


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## tinyliny

I'll try to get a photo on Friday looking down at the Schleese saddle's twist.

I had a really nice Lauriche saddle, and it was so comfortable to sit in at a walk. like a cloud! but, at the trot, I could not find my balance, so was always behind the motion. I sold it to a young lady who also struggled with it, but since her horse loved the fit, , she kept it for some time until a better solution was found, then sold it on, too.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I'll try to get a photo on Friday looking down at the Schleese saddle's twist.


Thank you! I'd appreciate it.


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## phantomhorse13

Bondre said:


> gottatrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably there are some horses and people who can rate at the gallop on a loose rein. I don't know how, myself, so must use the reins. If we want the full stretched gallop to turn into a slower gallop, we use the reins to tell the horse to slow. I've always wished the pressure required to do this was similar to what is used to slow the horse at a trot. But it seems to me that this pressure goes up at the canter, and up at the gallop and up more at the fastest gallop. So I am wondering if this is more of a physics problem than it is a horse responsiveness issue.
> 
> 
> 
> *I habitually increase the contact at higher gaits, and I believe you also ride like this. So in fact we have inadvertently trained our horses to ignore a constant contact at speed*. Or even that a constant light pressure on the face is a cue for speed. So the situation gets more complicated to understand as the physics is mixed with questions of training.
Click to expand...

I agree with this and I got to see it in action when I trained racehorses. They are intentionally taught to run into the contact and if you ever wanted to stop, you better learn to release your reins when you stood up and/or sat back! To start with, that was totally counterintuitive to me, as I had always ridden on a very light contact and increasing that contact meant stop.. but I had only ridden "normal" horses who are trained that way! [I think this is why so many regular riders have issues dealing with freshly off-track horses.. because they have to be re-taught non-racing rein cues!]

There _are_ horses and riders that routinely ride at faster speeds with no rein contact - watch a good reiner running a pattern. While I don't think a horse galloping a fast circle or running down before a sliding stop has quiet the same emotional excitement as a horse running down a beach, they have a comparable velocity.




gottatrot said:


> Here's a photo of the different twist on the Duett trail saddle versus the L & R dressage saddle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dressage saddle doesn't have an extremely narrow twist, but you can see it's much narrower than the Duett.


That looks like a pretty big difference to me! I have found that the twist makes a huge difference in my comfort riding, and that becomes more evident at different speeds. My best guess is it relates to the motion your body is (or isn't) using at each speed compared to hip angle.

Personally, doing a lot of walking makes my body very unhappy faster than just about anything. I have found this to be true regardless of what saddle I am using, though a saddle that I don't much care for at speed kills me that much faster at the walk. For me, walking means I am basically "just sitting there" and therefore my body is not doing very much moving, with maybe a small seat or leg cue given every so often. [This may not be as true on a big-striding horse that really walks out, but its true for my piddly-walking arabs.]

At the trot, I post.. so my body is moving around quite a bit. Even if my posting action doesn't take me very far out of the saddle, the movement is still relatively great in terms of joint angulation changes. And that is true from the hips to the ankles.

At the canter, my inclination is to use two-point. In that position, the joints are moving a bit to absorb the shock/motion of the gait, but in general the body is fairly still - especially the hips as compared to the ankles.

With that in mind, I started looking at what I was doing during each ride and how sore I was (or wasn't) after. I ride in either a treed Rubicon (which has a relatively narrow twist) or a treeless Torsion (which initially had a quite wide twist). Both saddles have the stirrup bars in the same basic place and the seat on the Rubicon is slightly deeper, but also an inch larger than the Torsion. I found that I was very comfortable in the Rubicon at the trot and the canter and less than thrilled at the walk. For the Torsion, I found I was fairly comfortable at a trot, less comfortable at a canter, and doing a lot of walking made me want to poke my eyes out. 

In particular, my hip flexors/psoas had many ugly things to say to me after riding at the 'wrong' gaits in the Torsion. I figured it had to be a combination of the wider twist not being ideal for my body and then the lack of joint angulation change compounding the issue. I also wondered if the bigger seat on the Rubicon allows for more position changes?

At the suggestion of a friend who rides treeless always, I ordered this crazy thing called a 'twist bulster' (basically a 2 inch by 6 inch hunk of two-inch-thick padding) and added it under the front of the Torsion's seat. It decreased the twist by maybe 1/2 inch, which I was pretty skeptical about.. but it made a HUGE difference in my comfort!!

Now _why_ it makes such a difference is still somewhat baffling to me, since I don't spend much time actually sitting in the saddle (where I could see the twist directly affecting the angle of thigh to hip), but maybe it relates in the same way to where the stirrup bars are in terms of base width? Certainly if I stand on the floor with my feet under my hips in a natural way, I will be comfortable a lot longer than if I move both feet a few inches outward from their natural position.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot ....thinking.....going back to the higher bit pressure needed at higher speeds.

If in fact much or at least part of the reason is the angle the reins make against the gums, with more pressure at the lowered head and less at the elevated and stretched head, would it make sense to lower the hands with the raised head in order to more closely approximate the angle of the reins to the head when the head is lower?

Or are the hands supposed to maintain the same height? Just seems that lowering the hand would tend to preserve a constancy of bit action in the mouth.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> If in fact much or at least part of the reason is the angle the reins make against the gums, with more pressure at the lowered head and less at the elevated and stretched head, would it make sense to lower the hands with the raised head in order to more closely approximate the angle of the reins to the head when the head is lower?
> 
> Or are the hands supposed to maintain the same height? Just seems that lowering the hand would tend to preserve a constancy of bit action in the mouth.


This is a fascinating idea, and I agree from a mechanical standpoint it might help.. but I wonder how practical it is. I know that when asking for a decrease in speed, I shift my weight back (and up in the case of half seat).. I think if I tried to simultaneously drop my hands as well, I would lose that weight shift. Honestly, part of me wonders if I wouldn't land on the horse's neck outright, if I dropped my hands low enough and tried to apply much pressure that way, as I wouldn't be able to maintain my balance.. and then I can envision what the next movement I made might be! :falloff:

In theory, the hands are supposed to remain at the same height, though exactly what height that is depends on the discipline of the rider (or in my case the laziness of the rider, as often I let my hand rest on the center pommel bag :wink.


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## bsms

As the horse raises his head to near level, you can't get your hands low enough. A horse can easily change its head angle by 30 degrees. Assuming a rein length of 3 feet, that would require an 18" change to compensate.

It isn't a raised head or lowered head, but a head tilt. Bandit:


















And horses respond to the totality of the cue, so they realize and adapt - assuming something isn't overriding their willingness - based on the total picture. The Army manual on rein effects say Bandit's nose should tilt to the outside with a neck rein because moving the rein across his neck shortens the outside rein. But in reality, he feels the total contact, realizes which way we are turning, and he accomplishes the turn in an efficient manner. He interprets my request and responds.

Control comes in if the horse doesn't want to go along - if he wants to run fast, like Bandit yesterday. When he gave me the Middle Hoof Salute (MHS) yesterday and tried to keep running fast, where did my hands go? Beats me. Anywhere needed to get control, including going back to one hand on the reins and one on the horn when he started bucking.

OTOH, after we got things straightened out, at least for that ride, he slowed at a verbal cue. I think bits are sometimes about control, and sometimes about shouting, and sometimes about talking, and sometimes are not needed. The more background noise from excitement, the louder you need to get with the bit. To me, the angle only becomes critical if the horse has decided to give the MHS. A horse who takes the bit in his teeth needs either some special techniques with a snaffle, or a curb bit. But that is a special case.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> if I dropped my hands low enough and tried to apply much pressure that way,


But the thought is not to apply much pressure. The thought would be that less pressure would be needed.

Just a thought that occurred to me out walking. Gotta keep the ole brain humming. Seems I've seen jockeys with their hands sort of low on each side of the head, or maybe my brain is making that up.

But if the rules say to keep the hands at the same height, I guess that answers. But even if the angle cannot be replicated, it still could be made somewhat more angled with the hands lowered.

It's all academic to me at the moment anyhow.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> But the thought is not to apply much pressure. The thought would be that less pressure would be needed.
> 
> Just a thought that occurred to me out walking. Gotta keep the ole brain humming. Seems I've seen jockeys with their hands sort of low on each side of the head, or maybe my brain is making that up.
> 
> But if the rules say to keep the hands at the same height, I guess that answers. But even if the angle cannot be replicated, it still could be made somewhat more angled with the hands lowered.


I think its great fun to think about the mechanics behind what we do, because maybe we can find a better way. I know you meant not much pressure would be needed, but I am not sure that I would be able to apply any pressure with my hands straight down without upsetting my own balance, at least not from a half seat. I will definitely be trying it next time I am riding (so if I fall off, I will be sure to blame you! :wink.

This rider has her hands as far down as possible while in a normal seated position. The only time I have seen this done was by people trying to get a horse to _drop_ its head. 










When riding with contact, a rider is supposed to aim for a straight line from bit to elbow. This gives the rider the ability to make subtle adjustments with 3 different joints (4 if you include moving the fingers) and hopefully means a steady contact. 

Jockeys are a great example of riders who keep their hands pretty low.. but still have the basic line from bit to elbow:











I know for me, my hands tend to follow the horse's head when riding with contact (though always keeping that relatively straight line). As a horse's head comes up, I find my hands also coming up. Apparently I am not the only one:









I have never really thought about _why_ that is my reaction.. it just happens without my thinking about it. Is it an unconscious attempt to help shift the center of gravity more towards the hind end, as speed needs more power? Is it because I am worried about the horse stumbling and rolling over, so don't want them on the forehand any more than necessary? Am I worried the horse is going to decide it doesn't need to listen to me at all in its wild romp, so I need to remind him that I am still up there? Perhaps some of all of those is why more speed = more contact for a lot of us.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> There _are_ horses and riders that routinely ride at faster speeds with no rein contact - watch a good reiner running a pattern. While I don't think a horse galloping a fast circle or running down before a sliding stop has quiet the same emotional excitement as a horse running down a beach, they have a comparable velocity.


Good points. After thinking about @*bsms*'s recent issue with Bandit, I remember how much having a pattern can help. I think beyond some racehorses having different rein cues, they also have patterns they run with certain distances and other outward cues that mean to go slower or faster (pace horses, etc). 

I've also been reading some other thoughts. An experienced steeplechaser/eventer stated that in his opinion horses that seem to need contact from the rider are horses that are less balanced. He feels that horses that can go on a loose rein are safer and more balanced at the speed they are going. He said he used to ride horses that required contact at speed, but has since become more selective and chooses horses with natural balance and good gaits, finding that they don't require that contact.

That makes sense to me re: balance, but I don't think balance necessarily limits the athleticism of the horse. But I have been finding this past year that Halla can do some things like trot and canter on a loose rein_ at times_, but she is more balanced and stronger this year than she has been yet since I've had her. 

This blogger had some interesting thoughts about needing more bit until the horse was more trained:
My new magic bit: a cherry roller snaffle | Eventing Connect



phantomhorse13 said:


> That looks like a pretty big difference to me! I have found that the twist makes a huge difference in my comfort riding, and that becomes more evident at different speeds. My best guess is it relates to the motion your body is (or isn't) using at each speed compared to hip angle...
> At the suggestion of a friend who rides treeless always, I ordered this crazy thing called a 'twist bulster' (basically a 2 inch by 6 inch hunk of two-inch-thick padding) and added it under the front of the Torsion's seat. It decreased the twist by maybe 1/2 inch, which I was pretty skeptical about.. but it made a HUGE difference in my comfort!!


I have a pommel bolster on my Ghost saddle too. I guess if it lifts you higher off the wider part of the saddle, it means your legs don't have to sit as wide? It makes my Ghost feel like it has a fairly narrow twist.

Regarding rein height:
I've always heard your rein should go in a straight line between your elbow and the bit or horse's nose. I find it ideal when there is a nice neck in front of you as in the photo of Bandit above. 
I think this is one thing I'm having trouble adapting to, having not ridden regularly in a leverage device prior to this year. As the horse puts the head lower, the reins are even lower than that due to shanks. 
When I tried a fleece noseband on Halla, she tried putting her nose closer to the ground so she could see, which made my reins _very_ long. That didn't work out so well, because she keeps her head lower than I like when galloping out anyway. She's downhill, and her neck goes away so I am riding a pair of withers. I make her keep it up a little so I can have something to avoid shooting over if she stops. 

But horses definitely know the different feel on the bit based on where your hands are. Amore can't stand high hands. You have to ride her with your hands very low or she objects. 

I was sad to hear last night that my old friend Beau had to be put down. Hard to believe he was a half Arab, right? (Half QH). 








He was around Amore's age, also with Cushings but he had chronic laminitis from it. He broke four teeth and the vet didn't recommend putting him through surgery in his condition. He'd been tripping a lot and his hooves hadn't been comfortable for awhile. 
What a great horse. He gave my husband his one and only gallop on a horse - he would take care of anyone old or young. He also broke my friend's back years ago in an uncharacteristic and monstrous buck after leaping a stream. She flew quite far over his head. Other than that one incident, no one ever was harmed by him and he was gentle as a lamb. 

My friends have a new OTTB they found to use as a kid's horse for lessons to replace Beau. They say he is very good with kids but has no patience for adult beginners. He figures if you're big, you ought to know how to ride. They also noticed he dislikes passing other horses when running on trails. They looked up his racing record from his tattoo and saw he had some 2nd and 3rd place finishes, but never won. Apparently he doesn't believe in taking the lead. :grin:


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## tinyliny

I am sure this person is a lovely person, and means well, but this kind of rein 'work' just makes me grind my teeth.










I bet there's see-sawing going on, too.

and, the jockey's hands aren't low. they only appear low because he is standing up above them. were he seated, the hand position would be nuetral.









but, anyway . . I got photos of that saddle I was talking about, the Schleese


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## bsms

Hand position, from Gen Harry Chamberlin - some of whose advice I love, and some of whose advice I hate:

The straight line of forearm thru the reins to the bit is intended to allow consistent and constant contact. As @phantomhorse13 put it: "_This gives the rider the ability to make subtle adjustments with 3 different joints (4 if you include moving the fingers) and hopefully means a steady contact._" The Cavalry & Chamberlin took several paragraphs to say the same thing.

If the horse raises his head or lowers it to a place it shouldn't be - a star gazer, or one who drops his head to avoid contact - you move your hands with the head and increase contact. The moment the head starts to return to its normal spot - which changes with the natural balance of the horse - you release pressure. Even drop the reins, if need be, since instant and clear release is what teaches the horse "This is good". It isn't about creating a headset, but encouraging the horse to place its own head where the horse needs it for balance.

When I first started cantering with Mia, she didn't know what to do. Her front strides were too short for her speed, she went way over on the front and had her head inches from the ground. I pulled her head UP, with brute force and moving my hands straight up in front of her withers, before asking her to slow. I think we would have flipped otherwise. Both Mia and Bandit have tried, briefly, the stargazing thing. Following that advice cleared it up before it became a habit - in about a minute. It is just "This will profit you not" in application.

I feel no shame at jumping in my horse's mouth. I never enjoy it, but I've been on a horse spinning on pavement with a car heading right toward us, or backing up fast toward a 10' drop she was NOT aware of, or spinning off the road/path into desert...or trying to get his head down to buck better. If they insist, I'll oblige. However, the more my horse talks to me, the less likely I am to get into those situations. 

Riding bitless at a trot or canter, I follow the same rule. My goal is for a little slack, maybe an inch or two of drop, and following the head at a canter. That way, the horse feels slack, but I have the option of getting in his mouth (or on his face) if needed. If I'm worried my horse may do something bad - spin, leap forward or sideways, etc - then I do something odd. Bandit and Mia were both solid with neck rein steering, so I'll switch to one hand with the reins and hold it much farther ahead than normal. That again gives the horse slack, but allows me to jump in his mouth if things go bad. But they feel slack, and that has been very helpful. I'm giving them freedom, but reserving the right to take it away if they do something dangerous.

I also don't worry about how much pressure is in my horse's mouth. Why? Because I don't control that. I've spent time with every horse I own, doing enough flexing from the ground and enough turns and stops at a walk to KNOW they understand a given bit before I ride out with it. I give release of pressure when the horse complies. How much pressure that takes is up to the horse.

The best example I know of was a week ago, when I had Bandit in the Tom Thumb curb bit and he wanted to eat. I'd pull his head up. He'd refuse, and keep eating. By the time he raised his head, I had far more pressure applied than I have ever used while moving. But he wasn't upset. He wasn't in pain. He didn't gape, or thrash, or fuss. He just calmly moved out - immediately after what I would consider very hard pulling on a Tom Thumb curb bit. But even as I was increasing the pressure, he knew exactly what he needed to do to get release. And when the pressure was greater than his desire to keep grabbing mouthfuls of grass...he got release.

His choice. I see nothing harsh, cruel or abusive in honoring his choice about pressure. And all I have to do is make sure he understands how to get relief, and then give it promptly.


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## gottatrot

Wow, that is a very narrow twist. I wonder if a narrow twist like that would help get the dressage rider's leg into the position I've heard described as preferred for dressage: with the thigh pointed quite forward. That twist seems ideal for two pointing but not so great for sitting.

I agree that it is very important to keep the line between bit and elbow as straight as possible, and the rider with her arms pointed down has broken that. This prevents a soft feel. To me this concept is much more important than where your hands are. If the elbows are flexible and following, the hands will assume the right position. On a completely loose rein, hand position is irrelevant. 

The more downhill your horse, the more open your elbow angle should be:









Of course if you found yourself in a position like this, there would be no harm in steadying the hand on the withers or saddle or horn or whatever you've got.


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> and, the jockey's hands aren't low. they only appear low because he is standing up above them. were he seated, the hand position would be nuetral.


While low can certainly be a relative term, the jockey's hands are below the level of the mane, as he is pushing the rein bridge into the neck. Generally speaking, that position is lower than found in most disciplines:



























Even hunter riders - on the flat anyway - generally don't have their hands below the level of the mane unless they are jumping.










Ironically, the only non-jumping riders I was able to find at all that had a similar hand position to the jockey were HUS riders:



















And those horses are asked to go with pretty low heads (the desired result of what that lady on the palomino was doing I suspect).


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Of course if you found yourself in a position like this, there would be no harm in steadying the hand on the withers or saddle or horn or whatever you've got.


If I found myself in that position, the last thing I would be worried about were my reins - I would be trying for a double handful of mane while reciting a prayer!!
:eek_color: :dance-smiley05: mg: :shock:


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## Hondo

@jaydee The two pictures were being compared for the angle the reins make with the bit by height of hand placement. With one, there is considerable pressure going to the gums with the other going almost straight to the teeth.


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## egrogan

^^The expression on that horse's face is great though-he's like "bring. it. on."


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## bsms

The folks posting all have a lot more experience than I do, but here is what I've felt with Mia & Bandit and using snaffles when they get excited:

The first thing I tried with Mia when her nose went out was lowering my hands. It seemed to make sense - lower my hands to get the pressure against a sensitive spot instead of her molars. I could get my hands down about a foot before it would cost me more in strength than I could gain with angle.

Didn't work. Mia would just tilt her nose further out. In this sort of situation, the problem is the horse doesn't WANT to listen. And she could easily counter my lower hands.

So I tried a side to side motion. It was recommended in books. Snap the left hand back and to the side, then the right. Pop, pop! Pop, pop! Pop, pop! Left/right...pause...left/right...etc. That has worked very well for keeping a snaffle effective with Bandit. If he braces, even if I'm using a Billy Allen snaffle, which is close to a mullen bit, it works. In fact, with Bandit, it works if my total rein motion is only an inch or two, twisting my hands to shorten each side: "Pop, pop! Left/right...pause...left/right..." - and by that time he is not fighting the bit any longer and is listening.

That did not work with Mia. It probably would have, if we had a huge meadow to try it in. But she'd be racing down the ATV road, and ANY side to side motion with my hands would result in her swerving left/right, big time. I think I made two attempts before the cactus flashing by my sides convinced me to give up. A sharp turn was coming up and she would never have made it at speed, so I reached into my bag of untried tricks, used the Pulley Rein that I saw in a Julie Goodnight video - and Mia slammed on the brakes. I'm sure I hurt her mouth and she was ****ed - but we were alive to fight about it, so I credit a Julie Goodnight video with saving my life that day - and Mia's.

I believe in reading books and watching videos. Your bag of tricks can never be too big!

The next ride, I switched her to a curb bit. I stood next to her, using very light pressure on the reins, and waited until she gave a tiny response that I liked. Repeated until she was yielding good to the bit, both laterally and vertically. Then mounted up and we did turns & stops at a walk for 45 minutes. Next ride included some trotting. Third ride included some cantering, including this picture my wife took of our first canter to full stop transition:








​ 
Not a thing of beauty, but she obviously understood. Fourth ride was into the desert. She freaked at a motorcycle, 3 pops in the mouth with the bit and she stopped in a straight line, paused...the motorcycle went away - and a light bulb popped on above her head. She could stand still and the scary thing would move! Cool! She never tried to bolt away in fear again. We still did lots of spins and lots of OMG Crouches, but she gave up bolting - because why bolt if you can wait and watch the scary thing run away?

A quote on a recent thread suggested it took 3,000 successful repetitions for a horse to learn. Mia took one. There was one time, about a month later, when she dragged her rear leg into cactus, kicked at the cactus, covering her leg in spines, and then leapt away. Three pops with the curb and she stopped - with cactus surrounding us on three sides. But her mind was back and she moved sideways - something she never learned to do in an arena - and then I dismounted and removed a hundred spines from her leg. Then we continued our ride.

I know most folks here have far more experience. But I like to think I shared some characteristics with Mia and Bandit, to include not needing to do something 3,000 times before I figure it out.

I'll add one thing: If I could afford to let Mia run in a bolt, the best way to stop her was to just keep riding her, pry my knees apart, keep a loose rein, and call her name. When an ear flicked back, her mind had returned and she would stop easily. The problem was that we didn't always have enough room to do that - thus trying different ways of using a snaffle, the Pulley Rein, and the switch to curb bits.

I change my mind daily, but I suspect Bandit will mostly be ridden in a single joint O-ring. I think he is a little happier bitless, but he can "_get feisty_" as his previous owner put it. That may only happen every 30-40 rides, but when it does...well, a good sidepull is adequate. But in my experience, a bit makes it easier to deal with a horse who "gets feisty". That may not be true with every horse. Almost certainly is not, in fact. But for Bandit and I, a simple snaffle is a good compromise between freedom and control. I sometimes LIKE direct reining and contact, and snaffles are good for that.


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## Bondre

Interesting posts about hand position and all the photos of different styles. Reading gottatrot's and phantom's posts of course made me browse through the collection of action photos I have on Macarena to see what I'm doing with my hands. At the risk of boring you all and cluttering someone else's journal with my photos, I'll share a few here. 

Two trot photos, taken in quick succession. In the first, Macarena has her head low and we have a straight line elbow-hand-reins. In the second, she has raised her head and the previously straight line has bent. I am keeping my hands low because she is doing her ground-covering 'let's get a move on' trot and I'm trying to keep things chilled. 




Typical canter posture with a high forward head. I'm sitting the canter and my hands are low; if I go into two-point then my hands come up her neck.


Short reins and high hands here together with forward seat for good control and anticipation of taking a sharp bend at the canter (photo taken just after a jump)


Attitude in a canter departure: her head comes right up and so do my hands to compensate. 


Her head is very low (for her) here and my hands are on either side of her neck - but a bit too low to maintain the straight line. She was trying to go into extended (racing) trot here and I always drop my hands to ask for relaxation and calm. 


Relaxed trot with a typical high and forward head position; my hands are high (for me) and we have the straight line. 


Conclusions: at least in my case, I seem to drop my hands and bend the elbow-hand-rein line when I'm trying to keep her mildly in check. When we're moving together and both in agreement about the speed, I normally keep a straight line to her face (not to the bit as she doesn't wear one). And when she gives attitude I move my hands accordingly as the low 'keep calm' posture isn't appropriate when calm has already gone out of the picture.


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## gottatrot

@*Bondre*, I think those are some good strategies. I know I do what you illustrate in your 3rd photo: basically instead of keeping your hands in line, you are bringing your hands to where you want the horse to meet you. With Halla it is sometimes the opposite: I am bringing my hands up and breaking the line because I want her to meet me by raising her head some. 
This is how I hold the reins a lot of times on Amore:
(I think it gets bigger if you click on it)









I am enjoying reading some of the interesting discussions on the Bits vs Bitless thread. It always interests me how horses are so different from one another. 

This is Bibi, a little Mustang I've written about. If I'd only ever started Bibi, I'd think horses were naturally confident and easy to train with a few repetitions. One exposure to something and she'd be confident the next time. Born broke, as they say.








Would you think after doing stuff like this, that this horse would be rearing and bolting due to the terror of being in the woods?









Thinking of Bibi, it cracks me up thinking about how speed is relative. I remember how it felt galloping away on her down the beach, and at 13.3 hands her legs were going like pistons and she'd be stretched out and you'd feel like you were really going somewhere. Then someone would ride up next to you, and if you looked over you'd notice they were loping along all casual-like on their 15.2 hand QH.

I've noticed how trotting or cantering on TBs that the world is whizzing by but it doesn't seem like you're going very fast so you almost miss a turn. And some horses feel like they're covering a lot of ground but you're barely going anywhere.


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## gottatrot

Sometimes I just like to observe other horse people and think about their different ideals and where they are coming from.

The other day at the barn, I saw a contrast. Two good horse people, both have worked with their horses a lot, done lots of training and seen major improvements.
One is into NH, goes to lots of clinics and has worked extensively with her Mustang for several years. The other comes from jumpers and has had several OTTBs. Her latest is Nala. 

Watching the two people and their horses, it highlighted to me how we choose what is important for us and our horses. There are many things I was taught are "universal principles," but they really are values we can choose to have or not have. 

The gal with the Mustang had her horse tied when we brought Halla and Nala down the hill. I tied Halla to the same tie rack as Nala, between the two horses. As Nala's owner got her tack ready, Nala untied herself and wandered to stand several feet behind the Mustang. Her owner came and got her, laughing, and tied her back up. I could see the Mustang's owner was thinking about how Nala could use more practice standing tied quietly. I could see how the two sets of values did not intersect. One believes that riding should come after working with a horse extensively and making sure all the manners and trust with the horse are fully in place. She sees the TB's antics as a lack of basics, loss of focus on the owner, a
lack of a quiet mind that should be worked on with a horse. There is nothing wrong with her perspective. 

Nala's owner sees other truths. She sees that her horse was given up on by previous owners, that her horse had problems with "chucking off" riders, was a highly energetic, highly misunderstood and mishandled horse. Now she sees a horse that goes out boldly where many horses would spook and run, has become balanced and reliable at all paces, and does not have major handling issues. There is nothing wrong with her perspective either. 

Both owners actually have difficult horses. The Mustang was difficult not because he was anything an experienced rider couldn't handle, but because he thought of himself as the most trustworthy person in the room, as all the Mustangs I've met so far do. He did not give up trust easily, or allow for lapses in judgment.

The Mustang's owner is the one who most often brings my horses in to their pens at night. Amore likes to get to her food quickly, so when you take her halter off she will wait until it starts to drop, then she'll duck her nose out and trot off towards her hay. I don't find this particularly rude or annoying, so I've let her do it. Tonight when Amore came down the hill, I saw that the Mustang's owner had Amore turn away from her food and stand quietly waiting while her halter was taken off. Then she turned slowly and walked to her food. She told me she had taught Amore this in two times trying it, because she just didn't care for the excited frame of mind and wanted her to be calm. I thought it was cute, and I thanked her nicely, saying I appreciated it. 

I didn't mention that Amore has been trained to do this - well, who knows how many times before. It all depends on what the person handling her wants. I also didn't mention that there will be days when Amore comes in crazy eyed, and she's not going to stand quietly or walk to her food. Amore knows many things, and if you do your part, sometimes she will do hers. 

One of the joys of winter, tonight did the horses' hoof trimming by the light of a head lamp. Halla played this little game where she lifted one back hoof just slightly as I was trimming the opposite front. It wasn't enough to where I could let go of the front and make her lose her balance - when I tried that she just shifted her weight slightly back onto the lifted leg. But each time I'd get to working, she'd lean just that bit to where I was taking an uncomfortable amount of her weight. I could tell it amused her _very_ much. She loves playing games, seeing what she can get away with. I guess she knows when her games are harmless enough, if my objections are weak and I keep laughing between protests.

I guess some people think if you let horses get away with these poor manners, they will get worse and worse until the horse is a bad citizen. It doesn't seem like that to me. Nala's not going to start pulling back and destroying her halters because she likes to untie herself once in awhile and wander away. Halla's not going to start smashing me under her body weight or kicking during hoof trimming. These are games, the kind horses play.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...The Mustang was difficult not because he was anything an experienced rider couldn't handle, but because he thought of himself as the most trustworthy person in the room, as all the Mustangs I've met so far do. He did not give up trust easily, or allow for lapses in judgment....


Bandit. Some people who enjoy mustangs have told me the same thing. Mustangs, like Arabians, run the gamut. But on average, they are more likely to have a strong self-preservation instinct and trust their own judgment.

My farrier told me that is what he loves about mules. Insist they give in to you, he said, and you'll have an enemy waiting to take revenge. Work with them, and you can gain a friend who will back you with every ounce of strength he has.

I told him he made me wish I could try a mule. "_You've got Bandit_", he replied. "_He'll tolerate things a mule never would, but as horses go...he's on the mule edge of the scale_."

He also agreed with a statement I read recently on another forum - "_You HAVE to train a mule the way you SHOULD train a horse_." I think Arabians and other sensitive, intelligent horses need to be trained the way all horses should be approached. You can make do with less, but it will remain less...

LOVE this: "...*Amore knows many things, and if you do your part, sometimes she will do hers.*"


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## Hondo

I've read this about mules in many places, so perhaps we should be studying mule training and applying it to our horses?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> *I guess some people think if you let horses get away with these poor manners, they will get worse and worse until the horse is a bad citizen.* It doesn't seem like that to me. Nala's not going to start pulling back and destroying her halters because she likes to untie herself once in awhile and wander away. Halla's not going to start smashing me under her body weight or kicking during hoof trimming. These are games, the kind horses play.


I think it depends on both the human and the horse. I can always tell when my husband has taken over feeding all of the horses for a few days. Oliver turns into a greedy, impatient, pushy turd. Ghost on the other hand, never changes no matter who is doing the feeding. I let my three year old grand child pour him his feed this past weekend and Ghost was a perfect gentleman. 

I let Oliver get away with some things and not with others. I know which is which because I have been around horses generally for quite a while and around Oliver long enough to know where I can cut him a break and where not to. 

A lot of times on this forum we don't know who we are talking with. The real experience they have with horses, their skill at reading the situation or what the issues the horses themselves might have. Thus, people err on the side of caution I think....


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## bsms

I nearly posted this on another thread, but I think I'm maxed out on the other thread and will drop out of it. I hope (and believe) gottatrot won't mind me posting it here:

Just before I owned Mia, she was sold to someone who kept her in a pasture with two large geldings. The geldings beat the tar out of her but she wouldn't submit. She was returned and then sold to me. For a number of years, NOTHING scared Mia more than...a strange horse. ANY horse she didn't know was cause for fear. She liked dogs. Had no fear of coyotes or rattlesnakes. Was afraid of other horses.

I don't know how many horses need to be desensitized to other horses. But she wasn't "being silly". It was genuine fear. It took time and repeated modest exposure to eventually get her calmed down.

If I understood gottatrot correctly, she argues getting a calm horse is partly about making sure it understands cues, partly about building trust, and partly about desensitizing the horse to an environment. Teaching cues IS important. So is building trust. But a lot of calming a horse is exposure to a given environment, and we don't know in advance what a horse needs exposure to. Mia found snakes and dogs curious, but not scary. Other horses? Strange horses she didn't know? SCARY!!!!!!

The other truly terrifying thing she encountered was a woman walking down the road twirling a pink parasol. Mia threw it in reverse and we went backwards as far as we could go, up a hill and right up against some cactus. Then Mia held her ground, dancing and trembling. I was cussing, and the woman FINALLY stopped talking on her cell phone long enough to notice a 900 lb animal on a hill with a cursing human on top.

She folded her parasol. 

Mia stopped dancing. 

After about 5 seconds, Mia blew out a huge snort, then looked back at me, looked forward - and we walked ahead. 

Pink parasols and strange horses. SCARY! :shrug: :rofl:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I just acquired a new horse last Friday (officially). My boarder will be going to A&M for animal sciences after the first of the year and she can't afford to take both the mare and colt with her. She gave me the mare and I couldn't be happier. We have decided to call her Bella. She's the red horse in my avatar.

Bella has had a lot of training in her 21 years. From what I have observed, nothing makes her more nervous than a person who does not know how to combine leg, seat and rein cues. Immediately, if a rider gets on and starts trying to ride her from the mouth, Bella gets nervous, confused and APPEARS obstinate. She doesn't misbehave, she just hesitates and tenses up. She doesn't understand and expects, I think, to get hit for it. She is scared to death of whips. She does not trust. (we will be working on the whip issue in the coming months).

I knew that I wanted to take her if my boarder decided to sell the first time I rode her last spring. I had watched her be ridden by my boarder on a couple of occasions and suspected what was happening, knowing the horse's history. My boarder is a novice rider. When I got on, she immediately became a different horse. She handed herself over to me. It was like "Ooooh! Finally someone who can talk to me". I'm safe now. It was a very cool reaction to experience. 

That security in the cues might not be the end-all-be-all but, I do believe that it can be an important piece of building trust. Some horses actually find security there.


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## gottatrot

Agree with all of the above. 

I'm not sure if I could train a mule. Quite a few times I've found myself following a Mustang's lead because I think they're probably right. A mule would probably be the lead horse and I would be #2. 
Arabs are better for the self esteem. They're kind of "blonde," and I'm pretty sure I'm right a lot of the time. 
I think Mustangs are useful because they're so smart, they'll help you decide whether it's going to be better to stand and fight together or run. Whether it's better to sit through a storm, or push through. 
Arabs are useful for getting you out of Dodge, and if you want to go waaaay out of Dodge, they'll get you there too. 

That is interesting Mia was actually afraid of other horses, but it makes sense. Amore was turned out with a horse that trapped her in corners near gates, and she still flinches if horses come up to her when she's going through a gate, or else rushes through. 

I firmly believe that every horse has their nemesis. Beau, one of the most solid horses I've been around was afraid of four wheelers. Not motorcycles, or any other vehicle, just four wheelers because some kids had chased him with one once. 

When we came over the dunes a couple years ago and Halla saw a line of plastic chairs in the sand, that was the scariest thing she'd ever seen in her life. That was one time I messed up and tried to make her look at the chairs again to notice they weren't so scary, and that second look was the one that really freaked her out. That was when my seat didn't follow plunging up and down in deep sand while sideways on the saddle, and when she ran for 1/4 mile before stopping and waiting for me to catch up. Actually, I think she was puzzled about how to get back home, but I caught her anyway, so that was good. 
@Reiningcatsanddogs, congrats on getting Bella! It will be so nice for her to have someone who understands and can give her confidence. I have felt some horses dramatically relax when a rider got on that could communicate in a language they understood. Some horses really feel a lot more confident when there is someone there giving instructions. Some horses really do not want to feel like they have to take charge. 

People may err on the side of caution when giving advice, but I think everyone in the real world needs to learn their own horse. Like horses, some people feel safer within rules, and I do understand that. But I also hope people can learn not to be too rigid with horses, because I think they thrive better in an understanding environment. It is just so important to see intent more than behavior, and to know whether a horse was trying to stomp on us or was just running, afraid.


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## Hondo

I wish there was someone that actually knew how to ride horses and use proper traditional cues available to ride Hondo to find out what he knows. It would give me some idea of his background and training before coming to the ranch.

And it would be so great to learn if he had a previous language taught that I could use with him.

Sometimes we're walking along and he suddenly stops and looks back at me when I make some kind of weight shift. I'm not sure exactly what I do, but his reaction is as if I had just given a cue.

I may just have to bite the bullet and do some studying on basic cues which I'm cuesless about. (sp intended)


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## bsms

Interesting comments on Arabian versus Mustang. Very accurate in terms of what I've seen between my two Arabian mares and two mustang geldings. Bandit's personality, like Trooper's, seems to have come from the dam. You can see signs of Arabian in him, sometimes, but he's more of a super-charged Cowboy than like Mia. We call him "Mini-Mia" because he strongly resembles her in some ways - curiosity, intelligence level...initial nervousness - but he is very different too. More inclined to say "_I know what I'm doing_", far more likely to tell me "_Go to XXXX!_" He likes people OK but he's far more business-like. He's more self-contained, if that makes sense. He doesn't NEED me on a trail. Most of his increasing calmness has come from learning for himself what is scary or not. He doesn't really need a "strong leader". He is one.

Mia and Lilly both were...yes, 'blondes'. Something of the '_Cute but Nice Party Girl_' personality. Mia was VERY self-centered, but also needed companionship - particularly from people. My two mustangs have given me a lot of respect for mustangs, but an Arabian mare is hard to match for fun-loving friendship. 

If I ever sell Bandit, it will be to get an Arabian mare. If I ever come across a young, green Arabian mare...we might go up to 4 horses for that. If they were selling her cheap because she was spooky, all the better. Lots of folks seem to think 8-9 years with only owning a few horses means I need to shut up and sit at the feet of my elders. But I'm certain I've had more experience with spooking than many folks have while owning horses for a lifetime. Not sure I know how to ride anything else. Or really want to, any more.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

GottaTrot, thank-you. I am very happy to have her stay with us. She has not had an easy last few years. 

She acts and looks ten years younger and, like all of the others, she loves her some Oliver, so she fits right in.









It appears to me that people go through a rite of passage when they get into horses. First you swing to the side of too harsh, in part due to your own insecurities. You seek that CA step by step how-to instruction manual. Then, with time and confidence you begin to explore the "other". Then you begin to find your own style, define your own borders, find your own way. The time frame for that is different for everyone. Some people never grow beyond that first step. 

Believe it or not I grew up learning that horses were tools, dumb livestock like a chicken or dairy cattle. I was taught to treat them as such.

Something though inside of me, this little voice, kept telling me it just wasn't the right read. It took many years and contact with people who could show me a different way to get results. More so, it took a certain maturity on my part; patience, peace, an ability to not take things personally, an ability to accept failure as a part of learning. Nothing will humble you faster than raising teen-agers or training a difficult horse. 

I learned a long time ago you cannot control other people, only yourself. All you can do is point them down a path and give them options to choose from. The choice though, for real understanding and learning, has to come from them. It is an evolution of sorts. The horse, like no other animal with the possible exception of dogs, can see what is really inside of you, so what is there, has to be real, not a lesson in your head or they will see right through you. 

Hondo, if I am ever out your way I’d be honored to meet Hondo and evaluate him for you but, I think he seems happy with you just the way you are.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> It appears to me that people go through a rite of passage when they get into horses. First you swing to the side of too harsh, in part due to your own insecurities. You seek that CA step by step how-to instruction manual.
> 
> 
> 
> Hondo, if I am ever out your way I’d be honored to meet Hondo and evaluate him for you but, I think he seems happy with you just the way you are.


I was lucky to have avoided the CA phase you speak of. Somehow the book Horses Never Lie piqued me and from that I was set on, I believe, the more or less correct path which I continue to pursue.

Thanks for the warm and fuzzy that Hondo seems happy with me. He should! Considering how successful he has been in training me, his daily and almost constant servant.

This morning I went outside in my bares at 4 AM at 32F and there he was, standing, indicating that his food was all gone. So he got more before I scurried back inside by the fire.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I was lucky to have avoided the CA phase you speak of. Somehow the book Horses Never Lie piqued me and from that I was set on, I believe, the more or less correct path which I continue to pursue.QUOTE]
> 
> A lot gets said about how disadvantageous it is to start riding when you are older but, you get to skip a lot of the immature BS that happens when you start as a kid....barn and show politics, prestige of going with this instructor or that one. You are already beyond it, as a person. You have the fortitude and experience of life to do what you think is right and not be pressured into a box of thoughts.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was lucky to have avoided the CA phase you speak of. Somehow the book Horses Never Lie piqued me and from that I was set on, I believe, the more or less correct path which I continue to pursue.QUOTE]
> 
> A lot gets said about how disadvantageous it is to start riding when you are older but, you get to skip a lot of the immature BS that happens when you start as a kid....barn and show politics, prestige of going with this instructor or that one. You are already beyond it, as a person. You have the fortitude and experience of life to do what you think is right and not be pressured into a box of thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> I spent a goodly portion of my life in that box and I ain't goin' back without a lot of fighting and screaming.
> 
> I have been thoroughly wrapped up in competition to the point of actually forgetting why I even began said activity.
> 
> I can begin to think of that type thing with Hondo at times, but then I remember what I really like is just spending time out on the trail with him, and of course in the paddock and pasture also.
> 
> Edit: On a side note I have been encouraged by my Dr. to do some 24 hour monitoring of my blood pressure. Guess what? All the evidence is not in but it appears to drop as much as 10 points when I go out to visit Hondo.
Click to expand...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Reiningcatsanddogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: On a side note I have been encouraged by my Dr. to do some 24 hour monitoring of my blood pressure. Guess what? All the evidence is not in but it appears to drop as much as 10 points when I go out to visit Hondo.
> 
> 
> 
> Hondo is a magic horse! Better than pills any day!
> 
> Too bad we can't share blood pressures, you give me some of yours....mine is low enough that I have periods of vertigo when changing position suddenly.....it's always been that way though. Maybe I need more stress in my life?
Click to expand...


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## bsms

A lot of folks on HF disapprove of my ideas about lessons. I read again today how ANYONE can benefit from taking lessons. Which is, of course, true - depending on the instructor. A poor instructor can teach bad habits just as quickly as teaching good ones.

I really liked the lady who taught Mia and Lilly and Trooper - AND my youngest daughter. My youngest daughters goal was to be able to ride Trooper in the desert. After 18-24 months of lessons, not sure how long it was, her instructor told her she was finished. "_You know enough to ride Trooper safely in the desert. What you need to do now is go riding. Ride Trooper in the desert. You have excellent rapport with him - learn from Trooper. If you ever want to do some touch-up work, or take up barrel racing or reining or try something different, give me a call. Otherwise - go ride your horse and have fun!_"

From this to that: 








​ 







​
When she took on retraining Mia, she gave Mia 4 lessons a week for two months. At the end of those two months of ground work








​ 
she mounted Mia while I held the reins. She sat there for a minute, then asked, "_How do you want to proceed?_" I said I'd like to get on and ride, and for her to work with Mia & I as a team. She smiled, said that sounded fine, and we did. Turned into 2 lessons a week for both of us, with homework after every lesson, for 2 more months.

Then she told me it was time for Mia and I to work things out, and give her a call if I ran into problems. As it happened, Mia and I never "arrived". We never finished. But she's being used as a 'kid's horse' now, so what we struggled through must have taught us something good.

I mention this because of "_You have the fortitude and experience of life to do what you think is right and not be pressured into a box of thoughts._" - @Reiningcatsanddogs

HF is the only place I have to deal with "barn drama" - thank goodness! Even so, being attacked used to bother me. I struggled with Mia, and then took a route with Bandit that many said would fail. Wasn't the fact that I was struggling proof of my incompetence?

In a way it was, but I don't think very many riders would be "competent" when riding Mia. Starting older, taking very few lessons and riding mostly on my own hurt me in some ways. But it also helped. I was a clean slate. I could read my books, find 6 ways of tackling something, go try all 6 - and see what worked for me & my horse & what we did. 

"Proper", for us, has come to mean "What makes my horse and I happy to be riding together".

It would be interesting to know what Hondo knows from his past, but it sounds like his past wasn't all that happy. It sounds like you've got Hondo "happy to ride" - and I've encountered experienced riders, both online and in books, who claimed NO horse enjoys being ridden! *And how sad is that?!?*!



Hondo said:


> I was lucky to have avoided the CA phase you speak of. Somehow the book Horses Never Lie piqued me and from that I was set on, I believe, the more or less correct path which I continue to pursue.


If it hadn't been for Mia, I might have become a CA follower. He's more understanding of horses than some of the local people. But I don't think I would have been happy. I might have quit riding rather than continue with that approach.

I don't believe horsemanship has much to do with years of experience. I think a lot of it comes from inside - who you are, and who you want to be, as a person. 

I talked to a guy last month who raised, trained and sold horses for 50 years. Kept about 15 at any given time. Sold his last horse a couple years ago. Folks I know who have ridden his horses say they were wonderful. He told me I should throw all my snaffles in the trash. Said he only used one bit for every horse he owned and started - a solid-shanked low port curb bit. If you want to see people melt down, suggest starting a horse in that bit!

I'm not going to throw away my snaffles. It is likely I'll try this bitless set-up soon:








​
But the guy was successful using what people say is awful. I know him well enough, as a person, to suspect he was very understanding and patient with his horses. Or maybe years with horses made him into a patient, thoughtful person. Hasn't worked that way for others, though. But in HIS hands, using HIS approach to teaching...I'm told it worked.

"_The horse, like no other animal with the possible exception of dogs, can see what is really inside of you, so what is there, has to be real, not a lesson in your head or they will see right through you_." - @Reiningcatsanddogs

Not only that, but I think they respond to what is in our soul, more so than our tools and techniques. Watching a person ride can tell you a lot about who they are. IMHO. Kind of scary if I then apply that to myself...:think:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Not only that, but I think they respond to what is in our soul, more so than our tools and techniques. Watching a person ride can tell you a lot about who they are. IMHO. Kind of scary if I then apply that to myself...:think:


That's why I prefer a horse who has a bit of sass. They TELL you what needs improvement in no uncertain terms. How you deal with that depends on whether you believe that the horse is never wrong as Dorrance said or if you believe the human is never wrong as alpha theory, taken to extremes, suggests.

If you are the type of person who is horse focused, then you look first at yourself as to what you might be doing or NOT doing that is causing the horses behavior. You don't stop asking questions until you find the answer and fix yourself (that is why I like Bucks statement that our horses are a reflection of us). If you are more along the lines where the horse should obey no matter your ineptness, because you are the leader dam* it, you blame the horse; lazy, stubborn, mare-ish, unpredictable, conniving, ornery....in reality the horse is just being exactly what you (or their previous owner) allow/trained them to be.

For graduation I got my border an hour lesson with my trainer. His comment to me was "She's just not all that into the mare". I think Bella knew that. The only reason she was there and not on a plate in France was because she had a cute one month old baby at the time and they couldn't be separated. My border, had to take them both from the slaughter truck or neither. When she and I first met she told me Bella was difficult. She had run her last owner through a barbed wire fence; Stubborn, obstinate, ornery...right up my ally. I found her to be positively charming from the moment we met off the trailer. 

I'm not blaming My border she sees Bella from her own perspective. W is too cute with a wonderful willing personality even as an almost 2 year old colt; he's a blank slate, without baggage....you can't help but fall in love with him, IMO, just like his momma!

It is amazing how two people can look at the same horse and with one, there is nothing but distain and the other sees a completely different animal. Attitude...mentally, the way you approach a horse can have everything to do with whether you can make them better for having known you or worse.


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## bsms

"*whether you can make them better for having known you or worse*"

Worth repeating, with emphasis!


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## gottatrot

Really good stuff, I'd like each of the above posts twice if I could.



> *@Bsms* - I don't believe horsemanship has much to do with years of experience. I think a lot of it comes from inside - who you are, and who you want to be, as a person.


I think Hondo is lucky. He doesn't need to be evaluated to see what he knows because he already has an understanding and listening rider. I too wish I could have skipped the parts with horses where I was too goal oriented and trying to make horses into things they were not. I also wish I had listened more to what I felt was right versus what others told me was fine or necessary roughness. 



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> If you are the type of person who is horse focused, then you look first at yourself as to what you might be doing or NOT doing that is causing the horses behavior. You don't stop asking questions until you find the answer and fix yourself (that is why I like Bucks statement that our horses are a reflection of us). If you are more along the lines where the horse should obey no matter your ineptness, because you are the leader dam* it, you blame the horse; lazy, stubborn, mare-ish, unpredictable, conniving, ornery....in reality the horse is just being exactly what you (or their previous owner) allow/trained them to be...
> 
> It is amazing how two people can look at the same horse and with one, there is nothing but distain and the other sees a completely different animal. Attitude...mentally, the way you approach a horse can have everything to do with whether you can make them better for having known you or worse.


I've always kind of agreed with the statement, "If you want to know who you are, look at your horse," but I've also kind of not agreed. Meaning, I've wondered how if that were true, a person could at the same time have a kind of timid, shrinking violet of a horse and also a bolder, testing type. I think it's more "If you want to know who you are, look at the direction your horse is going." I don't know a better way to say it, there probably is one. But the heart of it is "*whether you can make them better for having known you, or worse.*" 

Our horses won't change their personality to become the same as other horses we've worked with. But within the boundaries of who they can become, hopefully they will improve dramatically. Some of the worst horse people I've seen (ethically) have been professional trainers. I think that's because they have a goal of making money with the horse, and anything the horse does that might hinder that goal is a frustration. These people have years of experience working with horses, yet never learn from the horses and treat them all almost the same. I've had to just hold myself in check, so many times wanting to rescue the horse from the trainers, seeing how afraid the horses are and the torture they are going through. 

Speaking of Mustangs, we had one pro trainer at our barn briefly, who trains Arabs and Saddlebreds. She recently went to another barn where a friend of mine boards her Mustang. The Mustang has to be turned outside when the trainer comes into the barn, because he breaks out in a full body sweat and starts shaking all over at the sound of her car. She has never touched him, but he has heard and seen her training her own horses and is deathly afraid of her. I hope for his sake that trainer will move away soon. She usually "flips" several horses fairly quickly and then sells them and moves onto others. 
Her horses turn out "well trained," able to move out with their necks curved over and softly in an arena. They are fearful, traumatized and well behaved when she is done with them. 

That Mustang reminds me of Bella. The owner really wants to ride him out on trails, but keeps bringing him back for training because of what the previous owner told her. He said the Mustang could run "really fast," and that sometimes he'd just let him run for a half mile at the start of a ride and then he'd be wonderful and go slow for as long as you wanted to keep going. 
That scared the owner, so she's been finding really good trainers and working with them (the barn owner is a good trainer, and only allows the bad trainer to rent space). This is not a bad thing, but I rode the horse several times and saw a much different horse than she did. He is very smart, slightly insecure, but if she herself had only an ounce of fortitude he'd do anything for her. But she doesn't. She is very insecure. Every time the Mustang does anything that is not a simple "Yes, ma'am," it makes her nervous. But he only tests lightly, just to see if he can trust you. Any boldness or decisiveness on my part made him sigh and relax. So I feel just slightly sorry for him, knowing he'd be an incredible horse for a different owner. But he could do far, far worse and be owned by that terrible trainer instead of a nice lady who is trying.


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## Hondo

Thinking..........if horses are brilliant at the perception of the human that the horse has been around, wouldn't that perception affect his behavior and who the horse was, while around that person? It might affect a naturally timid and naturally bold horse differently, but whatever effect the personality of the person they were reading, wouldn't that effect be in at least some sense a reflection of that personality?

Just as an example, could the shrinking violet still be shrinking but a bit bolder, while the bold horse became less bold in some situations.

Sounds complicated, but if they act different around a person, it just seems that is some kind of reflection of that person.

I warned everybody..........i was thinking.

And while I'm thinking, my understanding of what a horse reflects is not necessarily the person we and others are most familiar with, but our own hidden selves that is often not obvious to others or ourselves.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

^^This. IME very often the people who come off as very confident are not at all. I went to a parochial school and religion was a mandatory subject; it included a lot of philosophy as well starting in grade school. One year in class we were asked to think about and discuss the “masks” we all wear. Then self-reflect upon why we choose those particular masks to wear.

It is a fairly well known link that children who are bullies, generally have very low self-esteem and are quite often powerless within their own homes. They seek to raise themselves up by tearing others down. In that light it would make perfect sense that a person who is “faking” confidence would need to have a shrinking violet horse that would obey them unconditionally and not challenge them. That's the psych 101 lecture for the day.


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## Hondo

Yes, but the question, I think, was what about a person that had a shrinking violet and a horse that had a more or less opposite nature? Think Oliver.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Same deal. By being able to control that animal even a small amount they gain confidence. Not totally unlike parents who get overly involved in their kids sports. Living vicariously.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My husband laughs because Oliver and I are so very much alike. I've known DH since we were three, been married since we were 19. No one, not even my own mother knows the real me better.


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## Hondo

I didn't quite understand the explanation about two different horses being a reflection of the same owner.

But now I'm wondering if Oliver is like your outer mask or your inner mask?

Never mind. Gotta go put some hay out and hit the hay. Up at 4.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I got rid of masks a long time ago. Same on the inside and out. DH said he's jealous because I am free. What you see is what you get.


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## Hondo

Ok, fair enough. But now what about a horse being a mirror to one's soul when they have two horses that are as different as can be?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Are they really all that different or is it your perception that taints it?


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## Hondo

I'm not talking about my horses. I really only have one and he may be a fair mirror. The other two in my care have not been with me long enough for me to affect them.

My question was based on others who may have had more than one horse for quite a while but they still appear to be quite different.

I guess I might be able to apply that question to you? Do you have another horse that knows you well enough to be a mirror and is that mirror the same as Oliver?

@gottatrot sort of brought up the issue in passing which set me off a little in search of what the mirror to the soul actually is intended to mean or if it really means anything at all.


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## gottatrot

Yes, having horses so different is why I wonder about the mirror... 

I do understand how people might seem one way and be another inside. Such as bullies, we know they often are insecure and put down others to make themselves feel better. The horse supposedly reflects our true self. 
Yet why do we quiet one horse and energize another? 

I've read a lot about people with cold seats or hot seats, meaning the horse settles or becomes more energetic when they ride. I can believe that a horse might agree with the will and energy of the rider, and for instance I galloped Halla up a certain mountain trail many times and never lost a boot. Then my friend who is fearless and appreciates speed got on Halla, and when she galloped Halla blew all four boots off her hooves. Her legs were just scrabbling everywhere trying to be the fast horse my friend adores. 

Some friends who also love observing horses have noted with me that horses will often take the place in line that the rider prefers, without being asked. One person might tend to end up in front, regardless of what horse they ride and even if that horse usually likes to hang back. Another might end up 2nd on a horse that usually takes the front. Another friend usually ends up at the back, no matter what horse she is on.

But aside from these things, I've often seen that a good rider will create energy in one horse and calm in another. And I've seen that my two horses remain very different from one another. I've not turned Amore into a horse that loves going to the front of a ride, leading all the other horses boldly. I've not turned Halla into a shrinking violet. What has happened is that Amore has grown bolder, while still remaining a timid horse that tends to spook. And Halla challenges less, while still remaining a take-charge horse. 

If I get on a horse, I try to feel what they need from me. Banner was an Arab on the timid side, but he looked heavily to his rider. If I sat boldly and rode him boldly, he lost nearly all his timidity and would even lead a herd galloping up a hill through the woods. Amore believes a rider but also gets distracted, so she can't always be dragged along by your confidence, only halfway. But Banner I feel like I carry along with me. He matches me. Amore I feel like I constantly settle, settle. Gentle, calm, easy. Halla I only match. I can't change her much, so I mainly match her and meet her and we go along together. 

With some nervous horses, you get on boldly and sit with a secure seat, and they nearly panic. They're like, "What is she going to ask me to do? Fly?" So you become like mashed potatoes, melting into them and feeling like a benign lump of rider that is not going to cause any harm. Other horses, maybe like Bella, you get on boldly and sit with a strong seat and they relax, feeling secure that you will take care of them. Others get very excited, but in a happy way, feeling that you are going to go out and _DO_ something. 

So how does all this relate to the horse being a reflection of who you are?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I'm not talking about my horses. I really only have one and he may be a fair mirror. The other two in my care have not been with me long enough for me to affect them.
> 
> My question was based on others who may have had more than one horse for quite a while but they still appear to be quite different.
> 
> I guess I might be able to apply that question to you? Do you have another horse that knows you well enough to be a mirror and is that mirror the same as Oliver?
> 
> @gottatrot sort of brought up the issue in passing which set me off a little in search of what the mirror to the soul actually is intended to mean or if it really means anything at all.



Bella, most like Oliver compared to the other two (Ghost and Cowboy; Caspian is 100% my daughter's. Cowboy is really my husband's horse). 

What I see in her is determination vs. stubbornness, willingness to please vs. opposition, confusion vs fear…..do you see how our perceptions can alter what horse we think we have? 

Determined, Willing, Confused
Stubborn, Oppositional, Fearful

Two different horses right? Nope. Same horse, different perceptions.

That is the mirror. How you perceive a horse says a lot about the inside of you.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs I think I have the basics on perception and some things that might affect it. And also projections.

But what I'm wondering about is putting that all aside, what does it actually mean for a horse to be a mirror to one's soul and in fact does it actually mirror the soul/inner self/or whatever.

@gottatrot Lots of food for thought there. Your descriptions of the various horses in some ways seem that they could also be descriptions of people.

That people and horses could be so similar in so many ways I guess should come as no surprise given the voluntary interaction of each. That may be the basis for the interaction to at least some degree.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

In another vein, if you are familiar with Chinese….I don’t know exactly what it is called….philosophy? I got into it initially while studying Feng-Shui, a much involved method of interior design. 

They believe in certain signs, yin-yang personalities etc. You will see where they talk about how a quality can be either positive or negative depending upon whether the person has “refined” it or left it undeveloped.

“When a Yang Metal person is refined they achieve their goals exactly in the same way as the sharp axe cuts through wood, they choose their focus point and they go right to it, with full power. Once they choose their target it’s almost impossible to stop them, unless you don’t want to get hurt. They do not sit around… they do not think… once they make up their mind they are into direct action and only going forward.
On the other hand, a less developed Yang Metal lacks goals and motivation and might spend time waiting for things to happen, but it never will and they never do, unless they put themselves willingly under pressure so they can be refined and get that sharp blade they so need.
Clarity, focus and strategy are the most important virtues for Yang Metal. Without these they become like a crazy timber man, swinging his axe all over the place without any sense or clue, making damage all over the place and hurting people……. Metal in ‘default’ position is cold, and while cold they are able to be tactful and reasonable. The problem comes when they go into action and they start to heat up, their emotions come out and often rage, and this sometimes can blind them in the middle of action, losing their focus, and if the fire gets too strong, the metal will just start to melt, it will lose its strength and they will simply be out of the game. For them is very important to stay cool while going into action, keeping their strategy and focus and not let any perceived ‘enemies’ cause any heated situations to develop.”

So you see in this philosophy where a Metal personality can be a real go getter or a procrastinator. An emotional hot head or an ice cold tactician. Seeming opposites but, not at all; two forms of the same trait. One is refined like a lump of steel that is made into a fine sword, a work of art and one is left that lump of steel.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs

Pressing onward...........

So are you saying that one could have two horses with metal personalities, one refined and one not refined, and both could be a reflection of the owner who could be either refined or not refined?

Sorry, I've been often accused of having a bear-trap mind.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Possible yes and they could appear to be on the surface, very, very different from one another.

For example, let's take your bear trap mind; what are the positives to that and the possible negatives when taken to an extreme?


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> So how does all this relate to the horse being a reflection of who you are?


Maybe it's backwards. Maybe the really good riders actually have the ability to be the reflection of the horse, and what the horse needs.


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## Hondo

I'm now thoroughly confused. I'm going to the feed store for more hay before it rains tomorrow and closed over the holidays.

Horses! Whew!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Brilliant observation egrogan!


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...So how does all this relate to the horse being a reflection of who you are?


Depends on how you define reflection and how long you ride the horse.

I didn't mean an intense horse would cease being intense. I meant a horse who is given choices by his rider will, over time, become more confident in making choices. A horse who is not allowed choices will become more nervous about making them, or stop making them altogether.

SueC asked me once if people treated their horses the way they treat other posters. I said I believed so, and the reverse is true - they treat other posters the way they treat their horses. Someone who feels they MUST control their horse's every footfall is likely to want to control how everyone else rides. Someone who uses "Ask, Tell, Demand" with their horses is likely to do the same with people, particularly on the Internet.

If I see someone with a horse they have ridden for some time, and the horse is comfortable 'talking', then I assume that rider is a rider who listens - to horses and to other people.

I generally consider myself a timid rider. But OTOH, I go out and let Bandit explore options and make mistakes. As his confidence increases, does that mean I've been confident enough to let him learn? The 7 years I spent with Mia means I am certainly a determined rider.

It also depends on the horse's starting point. Cowboy arrived here a scared horse - but with a ton of experience. Ridden by riders who accepted him, he has returned to a horse who is confident and capable. But Cowboy's fear was of being ridden in an arena. Once he got outside, he already had the experience, somewhere in his past, of making sensible choices.

Bandit is a much more self-contained horse. He doesn't actually need much or accept much from the rider. But he had little experience, I think, with making choices. When presented with them, he was nervous - at first. But then he gained experience, and trust in his own judgment and maybe a little trust in mine. He is not as confident or as trusting as Cowboy can be, but he started in a deeper hole and has further to climb out. But his increasing confidence in himself and in me is, I think, a reflection of how I approach riding and horses and dogs and people.

In the military, there are two competing idea on how to manage. In one, the manager stays on top of everything and controls. In the other, the manager gives the subordinate help and encouragement, but also expects the subordinate to use his imagination and logic to accomplish the task.

I was the second kind. I was often lucky enough to have good people working under me, and every major success I had as a boss was rooted in my giving my good people a chance to show how good they were. Then rewarding them for being good. And of course, I had some failures from trusting people who really could not be trusted. But before I ever owned a horse or took riding seriously, I was the sort who HAD to trust his people. I didn't have a choice. It is who I am. Even when it fails, and it did at times.

That is what I mean when I say horses reflect who we are. Mia was always gong to be an intense horse who needed support from her rider. Bandit will always be a self-contained horse who cares more about what he thinks than what anyone else thinks. But both gained confidence - as a trend - when I gave them trust. And maybe I'm not as timid a rider as I think, because I've been willing to give them freedom. In that sense, my horse reveals my soul.


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## Hondo

I have defaulted to Google for " the horse as a mirror ". Lots of good discussions/articles there including evidence that horses just plain have more mirror neurons than cats and dogs.

This is a whole new subject.


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## gottatrot

I like that thought from @Reiningcatsanddogs about personality being more complex and not only one sided. I don't know that it's so two dimensional as in a positive and negative side, but I think instead there are multiple positives that can be seen differently, but may be parts of the same personality. People tend to limit other people (and horses) based on one aspect of the personality. But that same aspect might be helpful if used a little differently or seen a little differently.

I also agree that we can choose to perceive how our horses behave as either positive or negative, and hopefully we choose positive. Stubborn, or self confident? 

I like that from @egrogan, that maybe a horseman can be a reflection of what the horse needs.

It does seem true, as @bsms says that you can see how a horse has been treated by how they respond to a rider or handler. Some might think that a horse with certain issues has not been trained correctly, and that may not be true. But you can see if a horse is hesitant to communicate that they have not been listened to, and if a horse feels they have to "shout" to be heard. And most people will tell you the story of how the horse came to them, and you can discover if the horse has improved or become worse. 

Unless we are talking about physical issues, a horse with good handling will always become better. But I've also seen how a horse may not have been used or exposed to things, so the initial beginning might seem "worse," because the horse has not been in that environment yet. So the starting point has to be discovered before the horse can improve from that, and this includes getting the horse fit and healthy, and seeing how they are once they feel great. Sometimes this means they are more of a handful than the overweight, out of shape or thin and sickly horse you first met. 

I think horses might not reflect who I am if it means they all will display my own personality as a bold or shy or stubborn person. But I think they all will reflect my approach to horses, which is an approach that tries to find a horse's strengths and to build those up, while allowing the horse to remain an individual with a few quirks I can overlook. But I like to celebrate how horses are different from one another too, rather than trying to make them all a similar finished product. 

On @Hondo's subject, I do think horses will sometimes respond to us in a certain way which makes us wonder why, but they are responding to the way we are portraying ourself unconsciously as tense, stiff or fearful even if we are not aware of it. I think this aspect of horses reflecting back at us has taught me a lot about how I am holding myself, my posture and whether I am relaxed or not. 

I learned that this awareness also works very well with humans, because we also read body language somewhat unconsciously sometimes. People in fight or flight mode seem to be more sensitive to body language. I've found practically that people in delirium or with dementia that get in a very defensive state often act aggressive out of fear. Nurses sometimes try to face them head on, and this can make things a lot worse. 

As @bsms says, how we treat horses is how we treat people, but horses have taught me a lot about these things. When someone starts getting very aggressive and upset, I think of them as a horse I'm lunging that is frightened. I don't become a big predator, I turn sideways, stop staring and use peripheral vision, slouch a bit, talk softly. Just a couple days ago I had a patient that was shouting at me and because it was safe to do so, I crouched down below where she was sitting in a chair and got lower than she was. Then I turned sideways and talked softly, and next thing you know she got confused and snapped into another state, looked around all puzzled about what was going on. Often people see horses and other humans as being adversarial when they are only being defensive.


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## Hondo

This persuades me I need to raise my mark just a little bit higher. Thank you.

"When someone starts getting very aggressive and upset, I think of them as a horse I'm lunging that is frightened. I don't become a big predator, I turn sideways, stop staring and use peripheral vision, slouch a bit, talk softly. Just a couple days ago I had a patient that was shouting at me and because it was safe to do so, I crouched down below where she was sitting in a chair and got lower than she was. Then I turned sideways and talked softly, and next thing you know she got confused and snapped into another state, looked around all puzzled about what was going on. Often people see horses and other humans as being adversarial when they are only being defensive."


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## knightrider

Quote: "And while I'm thinking, my understanding of what a horse reflects is not necessarily the person we and others are most familiar with, but our own hidden selves that is often not obvious to others or ourselves.[/QUOTE]

This whole discussion is fascinating. I can't say that the horses I have owned over the years are reflections on me because they have been so very different. When I set out to buy a horse, something has to happen in my soul very quickly after I see or ride the horse. It usually takes about 30 seconds for me to know if this horse is the horse I am meant to have. I guess I have owned somewhere around 12 horses in my life--it is hard to say because sometimes I don't get to own them very long and I don't know which horses count and which horses don't count as my "owning" them. But, for the sake of this discussion, we'll say 12 horses. I've had spooky timid horses that depended on me totally or they'd literally fall down and I've had bold fearless horses. Dangerous horses that other people couldn't or shouldn't ride, and child safe horses. Completely independent thinkers and horses that liked to check in with me every few minutes. Aloof horses and wildly affectionate ones. But every one of them did something to my soul when I went to check them out. I haven't been wrong yet, and I've been doing it for 50 years.

Could it be that all of these horses, who were all "right" for me, reflect different facets of my personality?

When my son was born, I made a book for him. One of the pages requested that I list our pets. So I wrote down all the horses I had owned at that time and described them. They were all so different. But I ended every paragraph with "And I loved him/her with all my heart and he/she was just right for me."


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## Janet Cherry

Gottatrot I have a quick query about the six-ringed martingale - what is it, how did you use it in this situation, and how did it assist with a bucking horse? I thought martingales kept the horse from throwing her head up, so don't see how it would help when the horse puts her head down to buck.....PS also have a bucking horse so am genuinely interested...


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## gottatrot

Here is a picture of a six ring martingale on Ebay.









Here is the one I have on Amore back in the day.
I was taught to put her behind the vertical sometimes, to get her "round" and "soft," which I don't believe in anymore. I rode most often with the reins through whichever ring would keep the reins straight to my hand. But if that doesn't work, you can put the reins through one ring lower to give the rider more leverage during the bucking.

Anyway, I used clips on my reins so I had rubber rein guards so the rings wouldn't slide over the clips and get stuck.








Amore was also too small to use the strap that goes over the withers, so I took it off and clipped the two top rings on the martingale to each other on top of her neck. Then I learned that if the horse puts their head down, the martingale can slide down and hit their poll or ears. So I started clipping it to rings on the front of the saddle too.

Back to your question: the martingale doesn't completely prevent the head from going down at all. But the horse relies on throwing the head around both up and down to get leverage for bucking, and the martingale stabilizes the neck quite a bit. You must be careful to always give a release unless the horse is actually in the throes of bucking, because the martingale can be very "fixing" and claustrophobic to the horse. But if you can catch the horse starting to throw the head down, give a hard pull upward with both reins, catch the motion and then release slightly as the horse stops, it is very effective. I've used it on one other horse with success too. I feel that since Amore was a very claustrophobic horse and it worked for her, it can be used fairly easily without panicking the horse.


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## gottatrot

I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas with family and friends. 
One gift I appreciate is new rain pants, I've had my last pair for about ten years and they have had a hole in the knee for a couple years, which meant at least one of my legs got wet. 
These pants are great for wet areas like we have, with nice features such as stirrups to go under your boot to keep the legs from riding up, a suede seat so you don't slip, and are completely waterproof. They go on over your regular pants so you can just put them on at the barn easily. A lot of the ones in major catalogs are made for areas that are cold and have fill inside. These are just a shell.









My next two weeks will be busy. I have two women who clean stalls for me. One does Friday and Saturday, the other does Monday through Thursday. The Monday through Thursday person is on a two week trip to Hawaii, so I'll be doing all the care myself five days each week. This gets a little tricky when I'm working, since my shifts are 12 hours. On the other hand, I am very particular about the horses' care so it is satisfying to do everything myself since of course I do everything perfectly.  I go to the barn every day anyway, to check on the horses and feed Amore her Cushing's pill and Halla her Vitamin E. The most important stuff. But that can be done in 20 minutes on the way to work, and doing all the horse care takes at least an hour.

Someone left peppermints for Christmas. I tried to feed them to my horses, but they turned up their noses. So I gave one to the horse in the next stall, which made Halla upset at that horse even though she didn't want one herself. 

Nala's owner took a cute Christmas photo of her.








That moment didn't last - the hat slid and Halla moved in for carrots.








Sometimes I am sad she always has that scar on her nose to remind us that more than half her life was not as pleasant as now.

This video was on my Facebook feed from someone called "Cadillac Cowboy." I thought there were some things to learn from it, one of which being that compliance and trust are not the same thing. We also need to read horses' body language and not just apply some formula and expect to get good results.
http://vid779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/gottatrot1/14400298_1810495889172100_1448946500_n_zpssjvfljhc.mp4


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## Hondo

Oh boy! I was actually expecting a video that was going to show something done correctly. Then I thought, that horse is wound up, he's enduring it but wound up. Well, I guess he was. The cowboy was tight as a bow string also. But now they're both unwound. I wonder if the horse is for sale?

Oregon coast? I think I'd have bought new or fixed those rain pants before now.

Funny how possessive horses can be of their human's attentions. I'd have never thought that before Hondo. 

Incidentally, my life is now divided into two time lines, BH and AH


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## bsms

WOW! That was a video worth bookmarking! Bandit sometimes does "Can you hear me now?" bucks, but has never bucked like that. I also was expecting a video of someone doing it right. But once the video started, the horse reminded me of Cowboy when someone tricks him into entering a round pen: 

"_I'm trapped in a shower with Norman Bates and can't get out!_" :eek_color::eek_color::eek_color:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hope everyone's Christmas was wonderful. I still have a houseful of joyful little voices. Yesterday we all went hiking up the mountain. Kids, parents (except for a very pregnant mommy) and dogs. After he gets back home my SIL will be doing a mountain winter survival course for USMC so he brought along a pack when the rest of us were slacking.

My Christmas/anniversary gift was panels for a round pen and sand. I had a temporary one made of wood. My neighbor girl used it to try to teach her horse to lunge and her mare kicked it to pieces. Her father fixed some of the boards, but left the cracked ones. With the Texas sun they fell apart quickly.

This is all very exciting because it means that my husband is finally serious about wanting to learn to ride. We have a new 15,000 acre equestrian park opening in July just a few miles up the road. It will have a barn, a pasture for turn out, parking and camping areas for trailers and of course trails. I have been wanting him to come riding with me for years. He loves the horses, has actually become pretty good at caring for them (still lets them get away with too much but…I’ll take what he can give me.)We just never had a horse that was appropriate for him and he was never ready to put the time in that he needed to. Now he will have a place to practice on his own. 

Cowboy is his horse. They click. Cowboy is also the most skitterish of the bunch, so DH’s learning curve will be steep. Now he will have a contained area to practice that has a somewhat soft landing, should he need it. Cowboy has not been ridden in a couple of months and one of the first things we will be working on is getting CB to soften his response when the rider asks for the head. I know that was a point of contention regarding its usefulness, but, it has saved my bacon on multiple occasions and I want it to be one of the first tools that gets put into my husband’s very small beginner tool box. So first, the horse needs to have it as a reflex and then develop it in DH. Why? Because I love him and I want him to stay as safe as possible.

Second project is getting Bella ready for my 13yo daughter to ride as her move up horse. Caspian is such a good boy but, he is smallish and has a hard time keeping up sometimes with the bigger horses. She already has asked to ride Bella, so at least she is willing. Bella is another who needs to learn to soften, not just on giving her head, but on all cues. She was ridden last as a barrel horse.

Out here, there are good barrel riders, who really do some good work with their horses and bad barrel riders who hop on any hot fast horse, put on a pair of spurs and yank heads through the pattern as fast as possible. When they run the horse into the ground, blowing out their legs, they simply send their previous horse to the sale and get a new one; disposable. Those horses get resistant on the reins very quickly and need to re-learn how to yield the head, softly to rider on a loose rein. I suspect Bella’s owner (two back) was one of those not so good considerate barrel riders. She is going to need some retraining especially if my daughter will be riding her on the trails. Shouldn’t take too long as I think she has been ridden properly in the past. 

So there you have it. My two projects for the next six months; a kind of new year's resolution.


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## Hondo

I've watched a few times and I'm pretty sure there were two full horizontal revolutions between the horse and the ground?


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## gottatrot

In that video of the bucking horse, I should have said it was a bad example, but I actually do think there is a lot to learn from it. The horse's body language is very tense and he actually leans away from the rider as he gets on. Amore actually bucked a lot better than that, LOL. But I've never made that spinning motion the rider does as he's coming off. That would not be fun. 
The horse has a curious expression on his face after the rider is off and stops panicking. I think he would be a good one to work with, but perhaps the rider could have spent more time teaching about the bit and pressure before hopping on and feeling like he needed to hang onto that bit for dear life. I think that panicked the horse. 

I like to use long reins and walk beside the horse before getting on nowadays, working on bit cues. So I basically teach separately the bit cues, and desensitizing to a rider. I'm quite cautious after Amore, so I teach surcingle first to learn girth pressure, bit and bridle work while lunging and ground driving, and then desensitizing to the saddle, having someone standing over the back, weight in the saddle. I find it easier to lay over the saddle on my stomach while someone leads for a few minutes, and that way if the horse gets upset I can just slide off. And of course dismounting is taught before mounting (I stand in the stirrup and then jump out), because many horses think having the rider get off is quite scary.



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Cowboy has not been ridden in a couple of months and one of the first things we will be working on is getting CB to soften his response when the rider asks for the head. I know that was a point of contention regarding its usefulness, but, it has saved my bacon on multiple occasions and I want it to be one of the first tools that gets put into my husband’s very small beginner tool box.


Although I don't personally use the method where you pull the head around and disengage the hind end, I think it's very important for horses to bend their necks easily and respond to a light cue with the bit. I've ridden some horses that do not know how to bend (I think some Western trainers would call it suppleness) or give to the bit. That immediately became my first priority to teach them. I want a horse to always turn their head and neck in the degree I wish to turn. It's very dangerous to be going fast on a horse you can't steer around or even do a reverse or small circle. 

The difference I have is that I don't like to have the head pulled clear around and also put the hips off to the side, aka disengagement. That's probably mostly because of my experience with horses that will either feel trapped and explode if they can't move away from what frightens them, or because they will immediately start into the next movement such as spinning, moving rapidly sideways, or running forward with the neck disengaged. I have two friends with mustangs who use the one rein stop and it seems to help them if they start feeling out of control. 

I didn't want to say this on the other thread because I didn't want to sound rude, and I hope you won't take it that way. It's not a reflection on what I think about other people's skills, because some good riders use disengagement also. But I think of it like using a plow stop when skiing. It can work, and it seems to work well when you're going a little slower and on less steep hills. If you feel insecure, are suddenly going too fast, you can do the plow stop and regain control. But it's not the best or most efficient way and once you're going faster and on steeper hills you'll probably learn other ways to stop or regain control. It sort of "disengages" you, and soon you'd rather just turn both skis together and use the edges so you are more ready to deal with what is going on. 



















Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Out here, there are good barrel riders, who really do some good work with their horses and bad barrel riders who hop on any hot fast horse, put on a pair of spurs and yank heads through the pattern as fast as possible. When they run the horse into the ground, blowing out their legs, they simply send their previous horse to the sale and get a new one; disposable.


We have the same thing. I boarded at a barn with barrel racers and gamers once. The barn owner told me that horses are tools, and if your tool isn't working for you anymore you get another one. I'd hate to be in her family. 
Sounds like many fun things planned for the year ahead!!


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## Hondo

If he'd been using a Cook's he'd have been fine!  JK!

And since no one else mentioned it: I think the donkey at the end added a nice touch to the video. I have it downloaded.

And it does look like the rider made an effort to crank the horse's head to the left right at first, but if he did it didn't work. Pain=Fear

A little gentle handling and I'll bet that horse would be a really nice horse to have.

The cowboy himself seemed internally very tense to me. He seemed stiff and jerky with his walk and actions. When he rubbed the horse's head he seemed to do it with less feeling than closing the hood on a car.

And I'm not criticizing the cowboy one tiny bit. I'm sure he felt he was doing the very best he knew. Reminds me of the nervous guy that Mark Rashid described in Considering The Horse. I feel bad for anyone that I see who seems that uptight. In a way I feel worse for him than for the horse.

It really is an educational video and it also is just sort of sad. It'd be easier I think to clear the horse's fears than the humans. At least I read it as some sort of fear based nervousness.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

No offense taken. In western circles it is a common maneuver, especially with horses you intend to use for lessons. There are many horses who react very well to a full disengagement…a lot of them really. It focuses them back on the rider. Oliver is one of those as is Caspian and Cowboy. All three are different breed mixes and temperaments. 

I used it extensively in the beginning with Oliver when he would get it in his head that the mare ahead of us was ripe for the picking. He’d get that way about him and we’d disengage. He had one thing on his mind. Got his mind back on me. Eventually he would just settle in and it was kind of like “Fine!”. And he’d start acting more like a gelding. We also used it to teach him that he could not always be in front. We were using a bosal he was still green and not yet clear on seat cues and still learning to soften to the bosal when excited. Pulling on his nose constantly would have been rubbing him raw. 

My daughter used it with Caspian for two reasons; one she was a young novice rider and two she was riding a three year old green horse. It helped her gain confidence while training a horse most adults were too heavy to ride, which is always a bonus. He will always be primarily a child's horse and most children under 110 lbs are novices. 

Had Oliver's response been of the other variety that he sometimes offers, involving the one finger salute, he wasn’t in a place to do any real damage to me or the other riders in the string…win, win. I see no reason not to teach it unless you have a horse who reacts badly, which I have yet to encounter.

Oliver and I don't need to use it much anymore, because he has learned that if he gets loopy, he gets removed from the action so to speak and would rather just not bother acting like a testosterone driven teen ager in the first place. In his case I used it as a mild form of fair punishment that did not involve a whip to break a behavior habit. My daughter used it as a way to maintain control when she was feeling nervy about a situation.

Like most things involving horses; there is a time, place and proper way to make use of it, but not in every case.

Hondo, where you saw fear, I saw a man with something to prove.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...and one of the first things we will be working on is getting CB to soften his response when the rider asks for the head. I know that was a point of contention regarding its usefulness, but, it has saved my bacon on multiple occasions and I want it to be one of the first tools that gets put into my husband’s very small beginner tool box....


FWIW, I have no doubt that it works and works well with some horses. My only objection is the idea that EVERY horse and EVERY rider needs to know it and use it. It is largely a western thing. Millions of horses were and are ridden successfully without it. It is like the contact/no contact thing. Which is best? Well, I strongly prefer minimal contact...but millions of good horses have been ridden well with constant contact, so how can I say my way is THE way?

If I add Mia and Lilly to my current 3, then 3 of 5 would be OK with a one rein stop - in terms of taking the head away. 2 of 5 would react poorly to it. And all 5 resent it if I insist on disengaging them after taking their heads away. They seem to view it as "_I've obeyed, and now you are attacking me with your heels?_" Trooper, in particular, does NOT like having any pressure put where he already has scars from spurs. Pretty hard to blame him for that! But I know people who swear by it - because it DOES work for them.

Part of the beauty of books, online forums and videos is learning techniques which you might never need. If you have always had success with X, and you're on horseback and X is NOT working, it sure is nice to pull Y & Z out of your toolbox! It really sucks when you are a mile from home, X is not working, things are getting ugly and...you can't think of anything else to try.

"_Hondo, where you saw fear, I saw a man with something to prove_"

Scared men often have something to prove...:???:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Scared men often have something to prove...:???:


Exactly and most certainly. And the thing they often try hardest to prove is that they are not scared.

My view is that he had himself tamped down so far back in his self awareness that he could feel neither himself nor his horse.

But on that single snapshot I certainly would not contest that my view is correct in this case, but it does/did strike me so.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Scared men often have something to prove...:???:


Is this like a guy with the red sports car that our mothers warned us about? :eek_color:

Fear is the root of most emotions...it is what you do with it that effects the outcome.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Is this like a guy with the red sports car that our mothers warned us about? :eek_color: ...


Well, I've met some guys who bought expensive sport cars at about 40. Some because they could finally afford one, and some because they had something to prove...and chose a strange way of proving it.

I think there are times a horse needs a person to go toe to hoof with them. But it is sometimes prudent to look at their 900+ lbs of muscle, look at our own bodies...and find another way.

Napoleon said, “_When you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna_”. 

But Jesus said, "_For which of you, wanting to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, after he has laid the foundation and cannot finish it, all the onlookers will begin to make fun of him, saying, ‘This man started to build and wasn’t able to finish.’_"

Before I set out to take my horse's Vienna, I'd better think about how strongly my horse wants to DEFEND Vienna...:eek_color:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Napoleon said, “When you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna”.



Hmmm.......wasn't he also connected with something about burning bridges? Might want to double think taking his advice across the board.


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## tinyliny

that was an interesting video. spectacular toss. I think he did on full revolution, but being a tall man, it makes a big impression.

the thing I saw is that he did a few things with the horse, but there was not real change in the horse , in any of them. the horse didn't follow him well at the first turn, nor the second, and it didn't feel ok about the first time the rope was put on his back, nor any following.

so basically, all he did was without any effect on the hrose, so was a waste of time. in fact, as Hondo said, he only served to make the hrose more apprehensive.

he would probably have had a better ride if he'd gotten on immediately, with no 'work' on the horse.


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## bsms

^^ Would have been hard to have a much worse ride...:rofl:


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## Hondo

I played it at 1/8th speed and it was indeed only one revolution.

He's a lot better rider than I. I'd say he was having a really good ride, well, until it abruptly ended.

He needs to bring a pickup rider into the pen with him.


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## tinyliny

I'd have been off on the first buck!


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## gottatrot

I thought perhaps if this was his usual routine with horses, the stiffness was from old injuries.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I thought perhaps if this was his usual routine with horses, the stiffness was from old injuries.


That's terrible. You bad!


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## gottatrot

*Cat Story*

Off Topic:

We had a big dilemma this week. 
Since I've been at my current boarding barn, about 2 years, there have been four barn cats. First there were two, then one was killed by coyotes and there was some fur left behind. There were worries the other cat would get lonely, so the barn owner answered a Craigslist ad for an 8 year old barn cat they were supposedly giving away because he "wanted too much attention." That sounded like a nice cat, so she picked him up on a trip to the city.

The new cat stayed in a carrier for several days, and when the door opened he ran off and disappeared. No one knew if he was still around, so my husband put a trail cam in the hay loft where the cats are fed. Sure enough, he was coming out from time to time and eating some food, but never left the hay loft.

Someone else dropped a cat off, and this was a young male who sprayed all the hay bales so the barn owner brought him to the animal shelter. He promptly bit a volunteer and was put down. I thought this was a no kill shelter, but was told by another volunteer it was a "low kill" shelter.
A short time later, the second of the original cats disappeared, and we believe he was also killed by coyotes since he'd been at the barn several years and seemed happy there.

The only cat left was the Craigslist cat, and although he'd been at the barn 8 months, no one had seen more than his tail disappearing down a hole in the floor of the hay loft. We all worried about the cat, wondering if he was healthy or not. My husband began going up to the loft several times a week and leaving treats and talking in case the cat could hear him.

Just a week ago, the cat started coming out and letting my husband see him and throw him treats. One day he actually petted him, and two days later the cat let me pet him too. He seemed a little thin but it was hard to tell since he had very long hair. We told the barn owner the cat might be starting to come out of his shell, but no one else had even seen the cat yet.

My husband and I talked a little bit about the cat and even possibly adopting him. But that was a very hard decision, because we take owning animals very seriously. We've had our cat almost nine years, and she is my first cat. My husband had cats when he was a kid. We believe if we get an animal we have to take care of them for life, and they become like family. We have to give them health care, good food, time and attention. 

Although my passion is horses, my husband has a passion just as strong for traveling. We support each other in these things, so we have to think about any pets we have needing care while we are gone for three or four weeks each year on a trip. My sister watches our cat for us, my mom watches our dog and birds, but my sister is not a cat person so getting another cat might mean finding another person to take care of the cats when we go on vacation.

Tuesday night we were at the barn and I heard the barn owner talking to a guy about "the trap is set, so you can get him in the morning." I asked if they were talking about the cat, and she said the owner from Craigslist had agreed to take the cat back since she didn't feel comfortable having a cat that seemed so stressed and unhappy. She was sending the cat back with this guy who was heading to the city the next day.

My husband was at the barn with me, so I told him we had to make a decision about the cat right away. The options were to give the cat back to someone who had wanted to get rid of him in the first place, or to send him to the "kill" shelter. He said we were taking the cat. The barn owner was happy to hear it, and when we went the next morning the cat came out to see us, and we picked him up and took him home.

My husband said to remember we are not trying to have Noah's ark since we have two cats, two birds, two horses and only one dog. The good news is the barn owner says she will not be getting any more cats.

Well, we've had this cat for two days. Once I really felt him I realized how thin he really was. All his bones are poking out all over. His skin is dry, and some patches of hair are missing. He was really thirsty and drank a lot of water right away. But it turns out he's like all our other animals: he was just waiting to live the good life. You'd think it would be so much warmer inside that he'd be feeling hot. But he found the heat vent pretty quickly and discovered he could lay on top of it. 

He bolts his food like someone is going to take it away. He's already spent a couple hours on my lap and likes his belly scratched. He let me trim his nails. He's really opening up already and purrs a lot. I guess the hay loft was too noisy, busy and scary for him so he mostly stayed in his hole. He must not have come out enough to eat and drink properly, or else it was too cold for him in his hole so he lost weight. I think he'll like his new, spoiled cat life a lot better.


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## knightrider

I love the cat story! I love kitties. What a great ending! Great story! Thanks for sharing.


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## gottatrot

Great ride today. There was actually some sun!
Nala's rider met someone through a local riding group who wanted to meet up at the beach. Knowing nothing about this person, I decided to put the curb bit on Halla in case the new horse needed someone to stay back while Nala went running off. 

I had my new fleece saddle cover on for the first time (Christmas present) and it was very comfortable. @bsms sold me on the idea of trying one. It didn't slip around at all. My stirrups felt a bit longer suddenly due to the lift, and I asked Nala's rider if she thought it would squash down after a bit. She said it might take awhile since I don't sit down very much! :wink:

The rider texted to say she was waiting in the parking lot at the beach entrance. Due to their discussions previously, Nala's rider thought this was the parking lot 1 mile south on the beach. At the parking lot there was a horse trailer but no rider. Nala's rider said she recognized the trailer as belonging to another friend she's ridden with several times this week - she's training a Friesian and last night they had trailered together over to the fairgrounds to ride in the indoor arena. 

We discovered the other rider was waiting for us at the next parking lot north, now about 4 miles away. We told the rider to head south and we'd head north and meet up. As we left, we saw the Friesian with her rider, about a half mile south. There were a couple people walking alongside, because the trainer was demonstrating to the owner how the horse was coming along.

Nala's rider said the Friesian had cantered for the first time, alongside Nala, but had only been excited at the trot, not wanting to run off with Nala whatsoever. This was Nala's third or fourth ride of the week, so she was feeling fairly angelic. Her rider said at the arena she had a different horse than she was used to. In the arena Nala was super light, responded immediately to cues and had progressed quite a lot since the last time she'd ridden in an arena. 

I've learned this, that if a horse can respond to the fast pace and difficult terrain outdoors, they improve dramatically for arena riding. They get fit enough to carry themselves in that smaller area more easily too. I'm really beginning to feel the best way to train a horse is teach the first basics in the arena, then take them outdoors and ride all over the place. It teaches them what you want them to know much better than drilling in the arena.

We thought we'd better wear out the horses a bit, so cantered north. After about 2.5 miles we saw the other rider cantering toward us. Here came a cute little Arab, and a nice lady, 65 who used to do endurance and is thinking about doing it again. She likes doing cowboy dressage with her gelding, has another Arab she says is "hotter" and might do better if she does endurance again. She thought looking at us that we were endurance riders. She seemed to like our horses and said she hadn't seen horses that muscled up in a long time. 

We had a great time. Halla was worked up at first, and popped her butt up at Nala once we got onto our narrow wooded trail. She seemed to want the new gelding to notice her and pranced her very best to show how beautiful she was and also she wanted him to know she was the one in charge.
I thought it was funny our new friend told us her horse was an Arab. Couldn't look much more Arab than that!








Once we got back to the beach, we trotted and cantered a bit, and the new rider said she could tell our horses had endurance minds. Halla tried to dart past the new gelding to see if he would race, but he maintained a steady canter. Later they trotted head to head, and Halla went like that for about 1/4 mile even though she usually doesn't like to trot. Their paces were matched evenly, and little Arab had a beautiful floating trot.
















We ended up going about ten miles, and we had very well behaved horses after we bid goodbye to the woman and her Arab.


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## gottatrot

Thanks to all my Horse Forum friends who have taught me so much in the past year.

I appreciated all the great conversations about saddles, contact, riding position, reins, bits, health, and how to relate to our horse friends.

Looking back on 2016:

I learned how to retire a horse.

Halla learned how to bend through her body again without disconnecting, and how to go both straight and with the amount of bend being asked for (most of the time).

Both Nala's rider and I began to let our horses gallop on the beach and worked on getting them trustworthy enough to run full speed. 

We increased the length of our rides from about three miles to eight to ten miles, and found new places to ride.

I learned first hand about treeless saddles, the pros and cons. I learned a lot more about mechanical hackamores and curb bits, discovering some good uses I have for them.

I learned more about horse movement, discovered more about saddle fit, and learned that I really should be riding in a 17.5 inch dressage saddle if I want to get the best position. 

It was a very good horse year, with the horses feeling good most of the time except for minor issues, and both horses healthy throughout thanks to modern medication technology for Cushing's for Amore, and the right amount of vitamin E and high energy diet for Halla.

It was a great riding year with great rides most weeks. The previous year a lot of time was spent just surviving on Halla, trying to see small improvements in her straightness and working on finding the right gear to help her be comfortable and also get her mind working with me. A lot of times I rode home quite tired mentally and physically. I always enjoyed it, but it was so challenging that I hoped we were making some progress.

There seemed to be some sort of bridge we crossed to where Halla finally began to get enough muscle built back from her Vitamin E deficiency from the spring before, a return to feeling coordinated and confident with her movement, and I also was able to get her working well in the tack. At that point (winter 2015), everything began to get better and better, and at some point in late spring and early summer, riding Halla began to be very fun again.

I fell off only...once? Maybe twice. Can't remember, must have hit my head. 

This next year I have some fun goals:

Nala's rider and I want to try riding all the way to the horse trails at the state park and back, which will be about a 25 mile ride. So we'll hope to do our own mini endurance ride this summer.

I want to spend a lot of time with Amore, taking her for walks and enjoying her beautiful self as she ages. I don't want to feel like I didn't spend enough time with her when she passes on, and I want to keep appreciating her friendship as long as I can.

I want to continue progressing with Halla and get her moving even more balanced and strong so she can become lighter and more confident. 

I hope to find a saddle that fits both Halla and I even better than our current one, so we can move in better harmony together. 

It all sounds fun to me, can't wait to get started.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ... The previous year a lot of time was spent just surviving on Halla, trying to see small improvements in her straightness and working on finding the right gear to help her be comfortable and also get her mind working with me. A lot of times I rode home quite tired mentally and physically. I always enjoyed it, but it was so challenging that I hoped we were making some progress...


This year, for me, has been a lot of laying a foundation with Bandit. Don't think the foundation has jelled quite yet, and won't get a lot of riding in these next few months, but I'm hoping we can get the foundation solid enough to build on by May.

These last few months have convinced me I must get him good going out solo because otherwise we often won't get out at all. If I can get him solid going out alone, even when it is windy, then we'll have a foundation ready to build on. But 2017 with Bandit may, in many ways, be like your 2015 with Halla. If so...good to know that there might be a big reward waiting out ahead of us. Even if that reward won't come until 2018...or 19.


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## tinyliny

and I hope you keep up your journal.


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## Hondo

Too many people consider turning a horse out to pasture and basically forgetting about their years of service is a very good and generous retirement. Warming to know that Amore, whom I feel I almost know so well, will have a happy, dignified, and (active!) retirement with full medical coverage and never become a forgotten pasture ornament.


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## egrogan

I don't know @Hondo, I think Isabel is just waiting for the day she gets retired to be a pasture ornament and doesn't have to haul me around anymore :wink: Maybe some day I'll own a horse with this "incredible work ethic" I read about sometimes, but I am very sure I have a horse that would be perfectly content to not have a job. Of course, she'd be a sad thing if I never came to gush over her and spend time grooming, but the riding she could do without!


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## Hondo

RE: gush over her and spend time grooming

Comment: I guess my thoughts about a pasture ornament doesn't include all that. Many of what I'm thinking of not only don't get any gushing, many don't even get basic care.

No work ethic? Hmmmm......I'm not sure anybody or anything has a good work ethic without a reason. Just thinking, I can change my mind at a moments notice.

Just got back from a ride. Treats along the way and 1/3 flake of alfalfa on the return. Short 2 hr ride.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I must get him good going out solo because otherwise we often won't get out at all.


I'm wondering if you've ever taken him on a nice 1-2 hour walk through the desert and if so how he acted, better or worse?


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## bsms

He pretty much acts the same when led as when ridden. Walked him this morning, in fact. I was going to ride, but he seemed tense. I started walking him and he jumped out of his skin twice in the first 3 minutes, so we kept walking for about an hour. He HAS been cooped up in the corral for the last week. That doesn't bother Trooper or Cowboy, but Bandit needs to get out more.

He calmed down about 15 minutes into the walk, then tensed up during the last 15 minutes when we went past some heavy equipment operating.

Rode him this afternoon. I'm home alone today with no one to call if things went bad, so we stayed close to home. He was better than this morning, and calming down by the end of ride. We did some trotting at a 45 degree angle in a few spots, but we mostly worked in the arena.

Don't think Bandit has a work ethic. He is more like me - gets cabin fever, or corral fever in his case. Tenses up inside when he hasn't moved freely for awhile. Trooper has a good work ethic. He'll plug away as hard as needed without questioning, but he could live the rest of his life in a corral and not be bothered much. He isn't prone to corral fever.

I'm supremely confident when leading a horse. Don't think I've ever become scared or nervous when leading, which lends support to the idea that 'rider confidence' isn't always a cure-all for a nervous horse.

And when I ride Trooper or Cowboy, they act quite comfortable and confident. So again, I think Mia and, to a lesser extent, Bandit are just independent horses...who need getting out regularly. I've seriously considered selling Bandit, but I'm afraid he could end up like he was before, with someone who would push him past stuff rather than calm him past stuff. I think he mostly needs lots of experience at being calmed past things, but I also think it could take all of 2017 and a big chunk of 2018 to do so.

Not meaning to hijack gottatrot's journal with talk about Bandit, but I think some horses are tied up in knots inside, often from being pushed past things when they don't believe it is safe. They WILL go by, but each time they do, it ties the knot tighter inside. Going out becomes more and more like going out on a war patrol - ALONE, behind enemy lines! PTSD in horses.

VS Littauer once bet a guy he could calm a certain horse down. Went so far as to buy the horse and work him daily. After 6 months, he gave up and admitted defeat. He said some horses, if not taught calmness and confidence from the start, were ruined - that getting them confident would take longer than it was worth. From a professional trainer or horse buyer standpoint, I agree. But from an OWNER perspective...it is frustrating. But when you've spent time feeling like you've gone nowhere, and then you look back and your horse is doing better - even if they will never be "normal" - well, that is a reward that reaches deep inside you. It really is why I kept Mia for 7 years. It would tear me apart to see Bandit end up with someone who started re-tying those internal knots!

"_There seemed to be some sort of bridge we crossed to where Halla finally began..._" - @*gottatrot* 

I've seen progress with Bandit, but not to where I'd say we've turned a corner. He's becoming more acclimatized to things, but only starting to accept any leadership from me. *Baby steps*. But around here, there aren't many who would even want to try...'Get a bigger whip' would be the response of a lot of folk.


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## Hondo

Good point about Bandit being the same with a calm person leading him and the state of the rider/leader not always being enough to clam them.

Rimmey was very abused in the past. He is so warm when everything is ok, but too much of the time he seems to be waiting for the other shoe to drop, which it always has. Takes time. But if the time is made to be enjoyable, doesn't matter. I know, easier said than done.

I am 100% certain that gottatrot is very happy that she has succeeded in providing a safe place to talk about whatever.


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## Hondo

Be interesting to have a heart rate monitor on Bandit so you could just look at your wrist and get an idea what is going on inside him. Actually it could also serve as a sort of bio-feedback to you for indicating what calms him and what does not.

OTOH, might not help or be beneficial at all. But it would be interesting to find out.

I have one so I think I'll try that on Hondo when we're leaving when he is somewhat nervous. And also on the return. Doesn't spook enough to test on that unless I set something up, and somehow I just don't wanna do that unless I'm leading. Had enough of that already.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Don't think Bandit has a work ethic. He is more like me - gets cabin fever, or corral fever in his case. Tenses up inside when he hasn't moved freely for awhile. Trooper has a good work ethic. He'll plug away as hard as needed without questioning, but he could live the rest of his life in a corral and not be bothered much. He isn't prone to corral fever.
> 
> And when I ride Trooper or Cowboy, they act quite comfortable and confident. So again, I think Mia and, to a lesser extent, Bandit are just independent horses...who need getting out regularly.


Halla needs to get out like that. Amore was never like that, despite all her challenges. But if you didn't bring Amore out regularly, she'd forget about all the hazards of life and be spookier again. Halla doesn't do that, but her mental energy builds and she needs to get out. I think it's a very good thing to know about our horses.


bsms said:


> ...I think some horses are tied up in knots inside, often from being pushed past things when they don't believe it is safe. They WILL go by, but each time they do, it ties the knot tighter inside. Going out becomes more and more like going out on a war patrol - ALONE, behind enemy lines!


Sometimes I think horses have had these fears confirmed as well. A horse Scout I used to ride was like this, and was unfortunately owned by a guy (who thankfully rarely rode) who pushed him and also had poor judgment. It made me very sad when I rode him and turned him toward something, and saw him just start to go even though the path was covered with poky brush and brambles. I realized I was used to having my horses say, "Hold on," when the path didn't look clear. Scout didn't question. Which is why he was a bundle of nerves inside, and he ended up only lasting as a riding horse until age 20, and was a physical wreck before then.

Scout went faithfully out in a saddle that gave him a huge hematoma on his spine, which calcified and made him stiff on one side. He went through things that cut his legs all up, and came home bleeding. Some horses are too easily beaten down, and he did not believe he could protest and took pain and abuse instead.


bsms said:


> VS Littauer once bet a guy he could calm a certain horse down. Went so far as to buy the horse and work him daily. After 6 months, he gave up and admitted defeat. He said some horses, if not taught calmness and confidence from the start, were ruined - that getting them confident would take longer than it was worth
> 
> ...But when you've spent time feeling like you've gone nowhere, and then you look back and your horse is doing better - even if they will never be "normal" - well, that is a reward that reaches deep inside you.
> I've seen progress with Bandit, but not to where I'd say we've turned a corner.


Six months...it took years with Amore. Can you ruin a horse? I always hope not. But it is rewarding, life changing, and I've thought very much worth it to put the time in and gain that partnership with a horse.
Normal is overrated. :wink:

I'm glad there are other horses in your life to show you that "it's not you." It can happen that people get even more than one horse that is very challenging, difficult, and a "more than six month" horse. Or as my friend says, an "evergreen." This makes a person doubt, thinking perhaps it is somehow their fault the horse is this way. But the horse came to you this way. You didn't create the problems. The problems would be challenging for anyone to deal with. As I've found, getting on many other horses and finding them very easy, simple to train and work with, and so calm compared to my own. 

People can think, hmm, both of her horses (in my case) are spooky, reactive, and hot. Must be her. But I just happen to have taken on two very difficult horses, and you just happen to have had Mia and Bandit. Other people would have given up right away. Keeping the horse does not mean your training is at fault because the horse doesn't magically transform into something they're not. It just means you haven't given up on them.

With Amore, I never saw the changes until I looked back - they came on more gradually. So I hope you are making even better progress with Bandit than you see, and perhaps that corner is right up ahead.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> Halla doesn't do that, but her mental energy builds and she needs to get out. I think it's a very good thing to know about our horses.


I like that concept of their mental energy building and needing an outlet. When I don't have much time for riding, like now with the short days, I try and fit in clicker sessions with them. Not purely for training purposes but also because they all enjoy them so much. When they see me arrive wearing the blue treat bag they know what's in store and they all gather enthusiastically - but politely - around me to see who gets to go first. I've been doing more with Duna as she needs the work the most, but I hate leaving Macarena out, so I ask her for a couple of behaviours from her growing repertoire while I halter Duna. I had a bit of a problem with Macarena crowding at the gate when I took Duna out, wanting to go out too, so I now ask her to back up away from the gate and give her a treat when she does it, and she no longer crowds (in fact she's waiting eagerly for the cue to back up). It's so easy to keep them happy! 



gottatrot said:


> But the horse came to you this way. You didn't create the problems. The problems would be challenging for anyone to deal with. As I've found, getting on many other horses and finding them very easy, simple to train and work with, and so calm compared to my own..... Keeping the horse does not mean your training is at fault because the horse doesn't magically transform into something they're not. It just means you haven't given up on them.


This is just how I feel about Duna! I don't know exactly WHY she's such a nervous case, but the fact is that she IS and so that's what I've got to work with. I'm seeing tiny improvements and she does look to me for reassurance now, which is good.



gottatrot said:


> With Amore, I neversaw the changes until I looked back - they came on more gradually. So I hope you are making even better progress with Bandit than you see, and perhaps that corner is right up ahead.


These journals are great for measuring progress. Look back and see what you were thinking one year ago, and compare! I was just starting Macarena with the clicker training this time last year, and I couldn't ride her out away from the stables alone. We were at our all-time low. And yet it was the best thing that could have happened to us, as our relationship improved vastly, and I have investigated and learnt so much about horses' minds and thinking, all thanks to that hiccup.


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## gottatrot

I am more confused after reading through some great comments on another thread about western versus english riding by @bsms and @Hondo. The comments were regarding saddle fit and whether the tree should sit behind the last rib or not. Some very good points were made and I lean both ways, honestly. 

What I think right now is that perhaps a well fitting western tree that doesn't interfere with hip or shoulder might sit past the last rib, but the rider's weight is distributed pretty evenly over that tree so it might not provide enough pressure on the loin to matter.

Gaited horses and horses ridden saddleseat do have their riders actually sitting on the loin. What I've observed in english saddles is that just behind the last rib/in front of the hip is the spot where horses get sore the most easily in distance riding. My own horses had mild soreness there when I rode in a saddle too narrow through the gullet. But I am lightweight, and my friends who weigh over 200 lbs had all kinds of trouble with the back being sore there in english saddles, even with a wide channel. They switched to western trees and have not had those issues. So perhaps this is a problem in an english tree with a heavy rider, and might be the reason it is recommended to not have the saddle sit beyond that point.

Perhaps it is not about the last rib at all, but has more to do with how the latissimus dorsi taper away to a very thin and small muscle near the last rib, which might reduce the ability to carry weight.

My other small rant here:
The other day someone told me it was such a dilemma when her horse was sweated up in the winter time because obviously she didn't want to put a blanket on since "it's bad for them."
Then someone else sent this to my FB feed: It seems to go around at least once each winter and is a popular idea.
No More Blankets ? An Amazing Article :: The Soul Of A Horse Blog
I liked the book, "The Soul of a Horse." But I dislike that this idea is becoming so mainstream.

I've seen many more horses harmed by not wearing blankets than by wearing them. I've never known a horse to get ill because he had a blanket on, or seen coat issues, or anything worse than a mild rubbing of hair off the shoulders if the blanket fit poorly. With most blankets having shoulder gussets, that seems rare. Most people buy highly breathable blankets that move well with the horse and do not hamper movement.

In contrast, I've seen very thin horses unable to keep weight on and shivering in the cold, seen multiple cases of severe rain rot, and heard of one horse that had the entire skin on her back slough off from rain rot, which caused deep wounds and permanent scarring. It would be nearly impossible to keep weight on Halla during cold weather if I couldn't add a blanket to help her burn less calories.

It may be true that the wild or feral horses have what it takes to survive "naturally," but many of our domestic horses do not. Wolves are also well adapted to the wild, outdoor life but just a few short years of breeding have left our Pugs and Dachshunds not so well equipped. Neither are our thin-skinned Thoroughbreds, Arabians and many other breeds that have not depended on natural selection for many years. We don't choose horses for the best teeth, hooves and dense winter coat. We breed them for speed, aesthetics and jumping ability. 
I'm sorry, but I just get tired of people telling me they believe their horses are happier out shivering in the cold than wearing a comfortable blanket. "It's bad for them." Really?


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## egrogan

Amen on the blanket issue. I just can't handle seeing a shivering horse, it seems so unnecessary. Isabel got wet on a cold, rainy fall day this year, and I was mortified when I got a call from the BM that she was shivering in her lightweight so they added another layer on to try to warm her up. 

I'm such a softy I have a hard time even seeing my chickens shivering on a morning like today, when it's 11*F. Some people have developed this solution :wink: 








I haven't crossed this line yet though, don't worry...


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## Hondo

Good rant. I had never thought about how long or how many years horses have been selectively bred. I'll admit that I have compared them more to wolves than to domesticated dogs. And I'm betting a lot of other people are guilty as well. Thanks for the important insight.

Recalling my past readings on the saddle fit, it was the latissimus dorsi that was to carry the weight, hence the last rib. That said, the saddle was also not to "poke", and an ill fitting English saddle that extended beyond the last rib does just that (as explained by the experts).

So the solution where a properly fitting saddle was not always available was to add the flare to the back of the English saddle so if it didn't fit, it still would not "poke". The bars on a properly fitting Western saddle are flat on the lat muscle and the rest slopes up without any intent of actually carrying weight.

Similar reasoning on the front. If an English saddle is too far forward, the shoulder is seriously injured over time. So if the saddle is too long or the girth or back of the horse causes it to go to far forward without a readily available better fitting saddle, the solution was to put a flare on the front with the idea the shoulders could slide under the flare without being "poked" and damaged. 

I have read on several saddle maker sites where the greater area for the weight was mentioned. It seems to me, and I stress seems to me, that the idea or reason for the flares over time has sort of morphed into spreading the weight over a greater area, which is not necessarily so. The weight of a properly designed and fitted Western tree is still mostly, if not completely, born by the latisimus.

Sorry, I intended to have ended my comments. Perhaps I should try a tom thumb to hold myself back


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## bsms

The idea behind the last rib being important is the idea that the bones provide structural support for carrying weight.








​ 
My GUESS is that they do provide some structural support.

But the tree of my Clinton Anderson/Martin 16" western saddle (FQHB) is about 24" long. It is about 22" long on my SouthernTrails (Semi-QHB) saddle. It is about 20" long on the little Abetta (15" seat, Semi-QHB)- Abetta makes short saddles. All those numbers include flares to the front and back.

My Aussie saddle has a weight bearing area about 19" long. It is not designed to allow the muscles of the shoulder to slip any underneath the saddle, so I use the rule of placing it about 2" further back than my western TREE would sit. I habitually place my hand under the front part of the saddle and feel for the tree and Bandit's shoulder movement when he moves his front leg forward to minimize interference.

Let's assume I sit it only 1" further back. From the same start point on my horse, then, it has a 20" 'tree'. Versus 20" (Abetta), 22" (ST) and 24" (Martin). So the question becomes, if a saddle that flares to the rear - all western saddles do, unlike my Bates Caprilli AP saddle - and it extends 2-3 inches further, does the horse give a rat's rear end?

Based on my short-backed horses, I seriously doubt it. With the cinch near the front, and a tree with a little too much rock instead of too little, the vast majority of the weight bearing is still over the ribs anyways. The pressure pad readings I've seen for western saddles all mostly look like this:








​ 
Pressure near the front - in common with English saddles. Significant pressure under the thighs - which move, or at least, moves for those of us who believe legs SHOULD move while riding. And very little toward the rear - "_so it might not provide enough pressure on the loin to matter._" - @gottatrot

At about the 1 minute mark, Bandit & I canter past the camera in very slow motion. I don't like posting this because I really don't like my riding - which is part of why I didn't post it on the debating thread. But at the 1 minute mark, you can see in slow motion how the rear of the saddle moves in relation to my horse in the gait which results in the most movement of the loins of a horse:






Admittedly, I ride my western saddle more like Littauer than John Wayne. But what I see is intermittent pressure on the loin, rolling down and across it due to the flare. The numbers on length alone suggest no more than 20% of the weight is being carried on the loin. The pressure read outs suggest the number is MUCH lower, and the canter video shows it is intermittent at the time the horse is using his back a lot.

BTW - I downloaded some videos of some top reiners at a canter, big guys sitting deep, and played it back in slow motion. It made me feel better about MY riding, but it also showed the same sort of pattern my video shows.

I think gottatrot is correct. All western saddles, or almost all, extend on to the loin - but so what? Very little of the rider's weight is carried there, and it isn't a constant. I think the extended part of the western saddle tree exists to permit the back to roll the saddle forward and reduce gouging.

And the reason I stopped using my Bates Caprilli AP saddle was it tended to gouge Mia's back. Unlike my banana-shaped Bates Caprilli CC saddle, I could FEEL her back bumping into the saddle at a canter. A too-flat western tree would do the same thing.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I ran into some information on Arabians back when I was researching Caspians.

Horses as a species, have 16 vertebrae, Arabians have 15. Rather than six lumbar vertebrae they have five. They also have only have 17 pairs of ribs instead of 18.

Caspians are believed to be the pre-cursor to the Arabian breed. 
Our Caspian is nearly impossible to fit for a western saddle. We have to go custom. Perhaps the differences noted between yourself and your friends may have something to do with the anatomical differences in your Arabians?

What I have found with our short backed Caspian is that western saddles are too long for him, even with a round skirt, they interfere with his hip in a turn and place the rider too far back on his back. (14" western seat).

I have always been very picky when it comes to saddle fit. Each of my horses has their own saddle. I am looking now for a saddle for Bella. While she could probably get by using Oliver’s or Ghost’s, to my thinking, neither one is a satisfactory fit for her. Never in my life have I sored a horse, regardless of the saddle. At my heaviest, I was a 133 lbs while 9 months pregnant; perhaps it does have something to do with rider weight as well as physical conditioning with regards to what you can get away with.

Something else to think about is the size of the seat. A 14" western seat places the bulk of the rider's weight closer to the shoulder than a 16" seat. So perhaps the size of the rider's rear end relative to the horse will also play a factor as to whether a saddle will sore a horse. I ride a 15" with enough room behind the pommel to fit a lengthwise fist and still be able to fit a hand between the bottom of cantle swale and my butt. 

In the case of a larger rider, what you probably have is a combination of more weight sitting back further on the horse's spine+. It seems to me this would make the fit of a saddle even more important. 

Another factor to consider is cinching. This is not something that most men will be familiar with but, nothing gives me more back pain than a wide, tight belt (ladies do you remember the 80’s?) around my upper waist or a too tight bra.

Unless the horse is mutton whithered, I don’t cinch down a saddle very tight. I can easily slip my hand underneath and push it out with light pressure from my fingers. It is tight enough that you can still mount (properly)from the ground (which is another topic altogether) but, overall it is relatively loose. Loose cinching can lead to a different set of problems not so much for the horse but the rider. 

This has happened to me more than once. About an hour into a ride I got off Oliver to heed the call of nature only to have the saddle slip off about 45 degrees. He has a habit of bloating when being cinched. How long I was riding that way I have no way of knowing. I do know however that had I not gotten off or had some unforeseen accident where he moved suddenly laterally, I never would have noticed. We have walked, trotted and cantered with a very loose cinch and not noticed. Which leads me to believe that if a rider is balanced and the saddle fits properly, a tight cinch is not necessary and might even exacerbate a minor fitting problem with a saddle as the tree is pressed tighter against the back.

The fact that a horse feels the need to inflate itself when being cinched up to me, says that it causes discomfort/pain and the horse does it to protect themselves from that discomfort. Oliver started doing it when my trainer began riding him in a 16", one-size fits all quarter horses, Wade roping saddle; he cinches up very tight in comparison to what I do. Coincidence? (he's been checked for ulcers). He does has two fractured and healed lumbar spinal processes, which might play a role.


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## Hondo

I think a bad fitting especially too long western saddle is less prone to damage the horse than a bad fitting especially too long english style saddle.

Even a properly fitting and placed english saddle that is allowed to slide too far forward or rearward could do damage to the horse. That is a big mark in favor of the flared western tree. But the weight of a properly fitting western tree still needs to be born, I believe, behind the shoulders and in front of the last rib.

The military instructions for fitting the 1902 Universal Pattern Saddle includes running the hands under the rear "fans" to make sure they are off the loins. I'm not enough of a history buff to know, but this appears to be the first use of the western style bars. The horses out of use in the military back in those days due to back problems is of staggering numbers.

The 1902 UP was of rigid construction and was supposed to be great for trekking. The 1912 UP "swivel" saddle developed problems for the horse and rider and is not recommended by the below site for riding.

The main thing it seems that the 1902 UP had was that the "fit" could be examined any time the horse was saddled. And as the conformation of the horse changed, as they do under long trips of many days, the bars could be shimmed to accommodate the changes.

Fitting Universal Pattern Saddle - Ethos Catalogue

6. Have your blanket double folded as per our "How to fold your blanket" page and place it evenly on your horse. Placing it slightly forward and then sliding it back makes ensures the hairs are lying flat. Put your saddle on with the front arch above the hollow behind the horse's shoulder. Push the front of the blanket well up into the arch of the saddle. (you should always do this before riding). _Before girthing up check to see if the rear fans are off the loins _and there is clearance at the front burrs. If not you may have to "envelope" fold your blanket.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Placing it slightly forward and then sliding it back makes ensures the hairs are lying flat. Put your saddle on with the front arch above the hollow behind the horse's shoulder. Push the front of the blanket well up into the arch of the saddle.
> 
> 
> 
> ^^this is how I was taught to saddle up. I ride with a 3/4" wool pad rather than a blanket. If I am feeling "pretty" that day, I put the blanket over the pad. I was taught to always "tent" the front of the pad in the gullet so that it is not laying flat against the whither. I see a lot of people who do not so that it looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude needs a bigger saddle....
Click to expand...


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## Hondo

Being an absolutely confirmed DIY person, I really really want one of these just to play with.


UNIVERSAL PATTERN "UP" Trooper / Military Saddle 19" - Pure Leather | eBay


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## bsms

The McClellan saddle began use in 1859. It was essentially a poor boy's western saddle. The military was too cheap to consider buying a true western style saddle, and probably too dominated by European theory to show any interest in what some country bumpkins were using anyways. I like a lot of what Harry Chamberlin wrote, but he despised western riders and saddles. That is OK...I despise what he wrote about using bits and spurs!








​ 










Braymere Custom Saddlery: McClellan saddles at the US Cavalry Museum​
The link gives an interesting look at an interesting saddle and how it evolved over 75 years. Lots of cavalrymen hated it for soring horses, but that happens if you use one tree (IIRC) on a hundred thousand horses, and then ride them loaded up with 200-250 lbs of weight and ride them 20-40 miles a day for weeks on end.

Good article on fitting one here, written by a guy who used them heavily:

Fitting a McClellan

The author also wrote "American Military Horsemanship", which includes the final manual of equitation put out by the Cavalry.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Then someone else sent this to my FB feed: It seems to go around at least once each winter and is a popular idea.
> No More Blankets ? An Amazing Article :: The Soul Of A Horse Blog
> I liked the book, "The Soul of a Horse." But I dislike that this idea is becoming so mainstream.
> 
> I've seen many more horses harmed by not wearing blankets than by wearing them.


I swear this goes around facebook every winter.. and it makes me roll my eyes every time.

If an animal is shivering, it's COLD. It may be "natural" to shiver, but that doesn't mean I want it happening. I don't stand outside and shiver if given a choice, so why should my horse? Being bitten by a rattesnake and dying from the venom is "natural" too, and I sure don't want that happening to me or my critters! I find the whole once the blanket is on, can't ever take it off argument to be laughable also - just curry your horse's coat to fluffy it back up and poof, all better!

Sometimes, I wonder if all that is just a way to have people excuse their laziness; blanketing a horse is a heck of a lot more work than letting them be naked.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs This is a big no no for a beginner to say to the experienced, and I really don't know for sure of course, so won't really say, but just looking at the mane that I can see, and "imagining" where it might end, are you sure the saddle is not too far forward in that picture? :hide:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

That isn't me Hondo, some random pic from the net. That pic is wrong on so many levels....I just used it to show what I see a lot of as far as how people fail to tent their pad/blankets.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Manes end in different places on a horse. First is my grandson sitting on Ghost
Oliver's mane goes much farther down his withers than Ghost's. If you look closely it goes all the way down to where his withers become his back, where as Bella's stops even farther up, almost before her withers start.

















so when I saddle, I do it based on the shoulder not the mane.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> That isn't me Hondo, some random pic from the net. That pic is wrong on so many levels....I just used it to show what I see a lot of as far as how people fail to tent their pad/blankets.


Whew! Saved my skin! 

I've only had two riding lessons in my entire life and that was only to be shown how to properly tack a western horse. And by a lady that rode English and was from Eastern US.

She is the one where I first heard "ask, tell, demand". But to her credit among many other things crammed into those two lessons that ran way way over time, she did teach the tenting principle. And of course sliding the blanket back and never moving it around afterwards.

No mention of saddle placement as I recall. She did have me ride some. Had me to ride at a diagonal but straight across the arena. (i had already read on Rashid's book to focus on a distant object) She seemed to think I did pretty well.

She also taught me to never never get my fingers under the rope when tying. Her husband, who rode western and has spent much of his life leading rides, was tying a horse when a little girl ran up in a loud high voice saying, " mommy mommy, i'm gonna ride a horse". The horse jerked back and the rope cut his finger off, not to be reattached. The finger is still gone. I think of that often.


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## Hondo

@bsms mostly. On the McClellan Saddle.

I'm really neither a history or military buff.

The things that grabbed me most about the 1902 UP were: First, I'll admit to often being drawn to things that are different or odd. Second: I really like the idea of having access to the bars without disassembling the saddle. Partly for my DIY leanings but it seems to be practical in many ways.

Third, and I haven't mentioned this, is that the seat is basically a hammock strung from the pommel to the rather high cantle. I suspect the cantle height is designed to keep the riders weight more forward.

Hondo was very animated on a fairly long ride, for us, yesterday, possibly due to experimenting with saddle placement. Anyhow, my lumbago feels it today. My thoughts, or wonderings actually, is if there would be enough to and fro movement of the hammock to somewhat modulate the impact on both my back and on Hondo. If so, I can see why it was considered by some to be an excellent trekking saddle.

Incidentally, I read that England went back to the 1902 shortly after the development of the 1912 and that the 1902 is what is still in service today by England's mounted military.

The minds, knowledge, and experience of the designers of the 1890/1902 Universal Pattern, with not hundreds but thousands upon thousands of sore backed horses, is to my mind and readings unsurpassed.

I am pretty certain there is a new saddle coming in my not too distant future. I just can't understand why it is only or mostly only used now by the English military. Maybe it's just too hard to bling out?


----------



## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Manes end in different places on a horse.


Well shoot! I "READ ON THE INTERNET" that the mane stops around 2 inches behind the shoulders. I checked Hondo and several other horses on the ranch and it seemed to be true. Guess I'd better not take it for granted.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Here's a better picture of Oliver's mane...don't know, looks to me to be more than two inches behind his shoulder...


----------



## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Here's a better picture of Oliver's mane...don't know, looks to me to be more than two inches behind his shoulder...
> 
> View attachment 856097


His entire withers look to be back a ways behind his shoulders.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Just another proof there are no absolutes when it comes to mother nature!


----------



## Hondo

Sit on any corner watching people walk by and you know this is true!


----------



## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs Just to be certain, when I was talking about the shoulder lining up with the end of the mane, I was talking about the shoulder blade or scapula at the furthest point back.

I just went out and double checked Hondo, Rimmey, and Dragon and they are all pretty close.

I've yet to be around the rest of the herd but eventually I will be.

To be continued.............


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I figured that is what you meant was the scapula. 

I was curious, so I went out to measure Oliver. He's at 3.8 inches, almost double.









You can see from this if you were to saddle him using the mane as a guide, your cinch, even on a forward rigged western saddle, would be sitting too far back.

With Bella you'd be putting the saddle right on top of her shoulder. Maybe I have weird horses with bad conformatiion.

I just keep things simple and go with the scapula as my guide.


----------



## tinyliny

I'm late to this, but I've seen more horses wearing blankets that keep them overheated and lead to skin conditions than the opposite( horse that is shivering and needs blanket).

I see many more horses over blanketed than under. just my regional experience.


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## gottatrot

You all are cracking me up! 

I get up and there's chickens wearing sweaters and so many other funny comments. 

Interesting, @tinyliny that we both live in the PNW but you've seen more horses over blanketed. I can't say I've never seen that, especially in fancy show barns. Both extremes are bad. Around here, no horse ever needs more than a light or medium fill blanket. Most of the time a rain sheet is plenty. I've probably seen my horse sweat under a rain sheet once, and I'm sure galloping around like that would have caused sweating without the sheet on too. But I agree that many of those who are advocating more natural while their horses shiver are also trying to justify budgeting out things like having dental checks and vaccines. 

But the idea that blankets somehow damage the hair coat so it won't protect the horse if you take the blanket off, or that the hair will lose the ability to fluff up is ridiculous. And don't brush your horse, that's not natural! 

When I watch the video of Bandit, I just keep being impressed by how he moves. He tracks up so well at the trot.

Amore has a funny mane too that ends too far back. For me the best way to know where the scapula goes is to lift the leg like I'm going to pick the hoof, and then put my hand on the shoulder and physically feel how far back it goes with the saddle cinched up. This requires no guess work and you can tell if it's going to interfere or not.

Interesting about the history of the military and saddle use. A lot to learn there. 



> @reiningcatsanddogs:*Unless the horse is mutton withered*, I don’t cinch down a saddle very tight. I can easily slip my hand underneath and push it out with light pressure from my fingers.


As both my horses are mutton withered, I've not had this luxury. It might be my own wishful thinking or justification, but I believe with very round horses there is more even pressure distribution so having the girth tighter does not feel the same as on an A framed horse. Regardless, there is no way to not tighten the girth, if you've ever ridden a barrel shaped horse. 

I am very picky about saddle fit, and you can put the saddle on and have it find a beautiful sweet spot without the cinch, and see that it fits great. But if you don't put a cinch on and the round horse starts dancing around, that saddle hits the ground in 5 seconds. Versus if you put a nicely fitting saddle on a TB with no cinch and they can get loose and run up a hill and you'll catch them in a quarter mile still wearing the saddle. :wink:

I'm saying this as a balanced rider who has gone a couple miles on a non-barrel-shaped horse before turning a tight corner and realizing I never connected the other side of the cinch. But on my own two round barrels, I've not tightened the cinch enough and ended up with the saddle all over the place - riding the shoulders, riding the flank, or turning around to see a kid riding the side of Amore's body instead of her back. 

If a saddle starts to slip over due to a loss of balance and you're not in an XXW tree on a round horse, you can simply toss a smidgen of weight into that off stirrup and walaa, you're back in perfect balance. But a saddle on a very round horse in an XXW tree follows a different set of rules, and if it starts to go, it's far more likely to follow gravity down the side of the horse than to respond to your futile thrusts of the weight back in the appropriate direction. IF you've ever been traveling at speed and felt this begin to occur, you decide it is a far better thing to tighten the girth a bit more the next time. 

I once would have agreed with you 100% that bloating is due to discomfort, except Amore did it the very first time I ever cinched her, and I did it very slow, gently, cautiously and loosely. So I believe it can be a protective mechanism that is instinctive rather than necessarily due to poor treatment or pain in the past. She has always been a big bloater since that time, and I was very careful with her at the beginning, trying to give her only good experiences. I think bloating might be different than other signs of discomfort such as pinning the ears, making faces and fidgeting. Amore's never done any of those, just simply inflated herself up against the strap.


----------



## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> People can think, hmm, both of her horses (in my case) are spooky, reactive, and hot. Must be her. But I just happen to have taken on two very difficult horses, and you just happen to have had Mia and Bandit. Other people would have given up right away. Keeping the horse does not mean your training is at fault because the horse doesn't magically transform into something they're not. It just means you haven't given up on them.


I can't recall how many times I have heard, on this forum and elsewhere, "just get rid of him/her. There's too many good horses out there to be wasting time and money on one like that."

Now if the majority of horse people actually follow this philosophy, its no wonder that when those same people see a high strung or difficult horse they automatically think it is the rider causing the horse's problems.

I'm like the rest of you who stuck with the difficult ones. I'm stubborn, sometimes hard-headed, bought a horse I probably shouldn't have, and in some people's eyes just 'wouldn't see sense'. 7 years later, I've got an awesome horse, I really do. And what I've got is better than push-button automatic. This past week has been extremely eye opening for me. Just the other day, my mare was thoroughly convinced that the best way to get out of our situation on the trail was to jump this 5ft wide chasm (the drop on it was 15-20ft). But she listened when I showed her a better way. The fact that I've got a horse who is that brave, and that strong of mind, yet will still listen to me, is an amazing thing.


----------



## Hondo

My bear trap mind is still digging the net for more info on fitting. I read one site that says 80% of horses has one shoulder larger than the other. I remembered that either Amore or Halla has this. Well, why not? Most people's hand, arm, foot, on the right side is larger.

Went out and checked Hondo's back/shoulders standing behind him. Sure enough, his right shoulder is much more muscled up than his left. Doesn't appear to be any difference in the scapula's but his right is sure filled out more.

And that solves something that has puzzled me for quite a while. When his saddle was placed more forward, his right shoulder was always fuzzed up in a spot where his left was not. I made absolutely certain that the saddle was symmetrical. One person suggested perhaps it was the way I sat. Another said since riders mount from the left, the right side often winds up with more pressure from being turned a bit.

Now I know. Not sure what to do about it or if I need to at all since running the saddle further back the problem of frizzed hair in no longer a problem.

+1 on keeping a horse and building with them!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Now I know. Not sure what to do about it or if I need to at all since running the saddle further back the problem of frizzed hair in no longer a problem.


My father always used to say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


----------



## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My father always used to say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


Now that's just not fair! We can argue with you, but out of respect, it's hard to argue with your father.

MY FATHER, used to say, "Better do some maintenance before it breaks".

We having fun or what??!!


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Now that's just not fair! We can argue with you, but out of respect, it's hard to argue with your father.
> 
> MY FATHER, used to say, "Better do some maintenance before it breaks".
> 
> We having fun or what??!!



Do our father's respective wisdoms directed at us say more about them or why they felt they needed to direct it specifically towards us in the first place?

:think:


----------



## Hondo

Now that's another twist.

I hope gottatrot's not going to throw us off here 

Nobody has more fun than people.


----------



## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> I can't recall how many times I have heard, on this forum and elsewhere, "just get rid of him/her. There's too many good horses out there to be wasting time and money on one like that."
> 
> Now if the majority of horse people actually follow this philosophy, its no wonder that when those same people see a high strung or difficult horse they automatically think it is the rider causing the horse's problems.


Great stuff, @horseluvr2524.
The problem is, I can't get rid of them because I know them. They're my friends. To me it's like saying my friends should all act like robots and look like movie stars. I can't imagine having family and friends that just said in a monotone voice, "I agree with you. Yes, you are correct," all the time. More interesting and better for my character and education if they question what I say and make me think. Better for me to accept their imperfections than to keep searching for some ideal that may not even exist. 
@Hondo, there are a lot of theories about the larger shoulder many horses have. The one I think might be correct is that horses start out with a right or left preference. They tend to stand with more weight on that leg and choose that lead when cantering. This makes it _slightly_ larger and flatter. But I think the hoof care they have as they age can significantly affect how much of an imbalance they develop. I have a theory that with good hoof care that kept the hooves trimmed and balanced throughout life, the difference would be minor. But without that assistance, or if the wider, flatter hoof is trimmed even lower then it will exacerbate the issue.

As the hoof gets lower and wider, it throws even more weight onto that leg and makes the shoulder muscle even bigger. This also tends to make the opposite hoof more clubby and upright. I've seen that working on the hooves and balancing them (not trying to make them match, but making each balanced) will help the issue some. But an older horse will not be able to have things change too much. 

I don't think it affects some horses too much. Halla has been affected by it quite a bit when ridden because she has a very long, sloping shoulder with a big muscle behind it. So that bigger muscle behind the scapula always has affected her saddle fit. It is much better now that her hooves match a bit more, and I've worked a lot on making her use the smaller shoulder more.

It used to puzzle me because my saddle would slip to the right and it felt like my left stirrup was shorter. I'd think my stirrup leathers had stretched and swap them around. I had people watch me stand and walk to tell me if one of my legs was shorter than the other. Then I figured out this only happened on Halla, not other horses, so it couldn't be me that was crooked. My friends then rode Halla and had the same issue. For a little while I rode with one stirrup a hole shorter than the other. 

I adjusted my saddle flocking so it was smaller on one side, which helped. People said you shouldn't do that, because you want the horse to fill in muscle evenly. Yet I felt at the time it was worse to be always loading one side of the back more. But finally the hoof trimming and exercises started to help, and the difference is barely noticeable nowadays. My stirrup leathers are even and my saddle is symmetrical.


----------



## farmpony84

I never noticed whether Pistol had a bigger shoulder than the other but I do recall riding with my stirrups uneven by a hole. I just assumed I had one leg that was longer than the other, or I put more weight in one stirrup than the other but... that makes sense.... Because you are right about the right sided / left sided....


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## gottatrot

Have to share this video that I saw on FB. I've talked about how I like mini horses' personalities. Check out this little guy with his herd.



> More Geoffry action! At Te Arai, New Zealand. He comes on every ride we do.... usually around 3 hours in the hills, forest or at the beach and leads the way most of the time. He even swims in the surf! He's a brave wee lad


http://vid779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/gottatrot1/15954344_773287922824627_421302898366873600_n_zpsm5lnqx7b.mp4


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

A friend of mine has minis. Someone forgot to tell them they are not full sized horses!


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## Hondo

Gal at the feed store has minis she drives in parades. From what I've heard, minis are not far behind being a dog.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> From what I've heard, minis are not far behind being a dog.


Assuming the dogs you mean are chihuahuas. I can actually see a lot of similarities in their personalities.. :eek_color:


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Assuming the dogs you mean are chihuahuas. I can actually see a lot of similarities in their personalities.. :eek_color:


Well that too, but I was thinking smarter in general. I haven't really been around minis but have heard a lot about them. Seems strange their minds would be so advanced in some ways just by being minis.

Something else to ponder and possibly research. There must be something already done in that area.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> Assuming the dogs you mean are chihuahuas. I can actually see a lot of similarities in their personalities.. :eek_color:


Hmm...the only way I can think of is that once I tried to lead Amore through a field where some minis were loose and one ran up and started biting her knees. So they could be "ankle biters."
But my sister has had some Chihuahuas and they were not into work or exercise, preferred staying indoors and often liked just a few people. I would say they were fragile or acted fragile, except for a rare occasion when they would bark and act tough. Also they were jittery and high strung.

Mini horses seem to enjoy getting out and working, they're bold, affectionate, and most don't act reactive or high strung. They are highly adaptive to new situations and settings and try hard to work with people. I agree with them being like a dog in that they're open natured and curious, and seem to enjoy getting out and doing things with people and other animals besides horses. I'd say more of a mellow, sporting or working breed though.
When I've taken Amore out jogging with me, she's always acted like, "OK, fine, put me to work. I will do it if I have to." 
When I've taken several different minis out jogging with me at various times, they've always been like "Yay, we're jogging up a hill together!" More of a dog like response. :smile:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

IMO I think minis are sometimes put into the same situation as ponies.

They get treated differently because of their size. Therefore, they are often not trained to ride/drive, to have manners and generally be as adapted to being with people as their larger counterparts. I have met some very nasty minis and some very well behaved ones. 

Caspian has a very outgoing personality, is the smartest horse we have and could have been a real PITA under saddle but, he's big enough for a very small adult to ride and so learned what was acceptable and what was not, just like a regular sized horse. Being "cute" didn't get him cut any breaks as far as ground manners either!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I would say they were fragile or acted fragile, except for a rare occasion when they would bark and act tough. Also they were jittery and high strung.
> 
> Mini horses seem to enjoy getting out and working, they're bold, affectionate, and most don't act reactive or high strung.





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> They get treated differently because of their size. Therefore, they are often not trained to ride/drive, to have manners and generally be as adapted to being with people as their larger counterparts. I have met some very nasty minis and some very well behaved ones.


The fact they are treated differently because of their size is where I was going with my comment about minis being similar to chihuahuas.

In my experience, a chihuahua's behavior is a giant reflection on the owner and the training (or lack thereof) they have received. While that general concept is true of any animal, an out-of-control lab might knock you over out of enthusiasm, but it wasn't likely to bite you for sitting on the couch. I have met some absolutely lovely chihuahuas who were well socialized and well behaved _because their owners expected that from them_ and trained them accordingly. But I have met more that are nervous, snappy nuts who have gotten no guidance from owners who think such behavior is cute and/or not a problem.

The minis I have known have been either lovely animals or hellions depending on what their owners did or didn't expect and tolerate from them. But what is not so good in a 10 pound dog becomes pretty darn scary in a 200 pound mini.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

One of our dogs is a Pomeranian. She has never been treated like a purse puppy and acts like a regular dog....except she is a bit nervous around small children and strangers. She doesn't bite though, just hides from them.


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> she is a bit nervous around small children and strangers. She doesn't bite though, just hides from them.


Smart dog (and super cute, btw). I would act the same way around those people if I could!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

phantomhorse13 said:


> Smart dog (and super cute, btw). I would act the same way around those people if I could!


Thanks. The tragedy of it is though, we have had three Poms, the other two were taken by raptors, either owls or hawks along with three cats to date. Small dogs and cats don't do well in rural Texas. 

Roxie is the only one to have made it more than a few years...she seems to know though that danger comes from the skies and prefers to stay under something while outside (tables, chairs, porch roof) and makes bathroom excursions quick. The two that were taken were much bolder dogs. Her nervous nature seems to have done her well in the survival department. Being from Mexico, I wonder if it is not the same for the nervous Chihuahuas?


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs;9685081we have had three Poms said:


> That is pretty horrifying!! We have some owls and red tails around, but I have yet to year of them taking anybody's pets (though I guess always possible people mistakenly assume cats that never came home fell victim to cars). Wondering if I was about to be snatched at any moment from above would certainly make me nervous.
> 
> I don't think that is a viable excuse for the minis though. :wink:


----------



## bsms

Small dogs don't tend to last long in southern Arizona, if you live outside the city. Our 8 chickens are down to 4 now - the 4 cautious ones. A coyote got in our fenced back yard a couple of weeks ago and got Oreo's tail feathers, but she was fast enough not to lose anything more before my wife heard and went out. Our 100 lb white German Shepherd went out with 'his mommy', and the coyote bolted thru the bars in our fence.

In flying, there is a saying: "_There are Old Pilots. There are Bold Pilots. But there are no Old Bold Pilots._"

I'm pretty sure Bandit is planning on becoming an Old Horse regardless of his rider.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Aww. Poor chickens! 

I know this is going to make some people gasp in disgust but, have you ever spread your urine on property boundaries? An old rancher told us to do that back when we were having coyote issues. He said it's like marking your territory. It seems to have worked. We're on 11 acres and within a mile of a nature reserve, surrounded by similar sized properties.

No coyotes anywhere near the house and they are everywhere here. Joggers encounter them running in parks even in the big city. Suburbanites have them in their back yards. 

Our neighbors have chickens and no dogs and they did the same thing. No coyotes.


----------



## Hondo

According to this article, you need to be drinking lots of coffee and/or beer during rainy seasons.

How do I protect livestock from predators?


----------



## Zexious

Reiningcatsanddogs--How interesting!
I live in "super suburbia" but coyotes are a big problem--more so recently than in the past. My dog is large, and my small animals stay inside, so they aren't much of an issue to me, but I may have to pass this advice along!


----------



## bsms

I'm just trying to picture my neighbors' reactions to my strolling around ****ing on our fence. Might need to live on more than 2 acres of land to pull that one off without complaint!

"_you need to be drinking lots of coffee and/or beer during rainy seasons_" - @Hondo

And is there a downside to that? And since this is gottatrot's journal, I'm thinking Oregon, lot of rain, need to drink unending supplies of beer and coffee...might not have time to ride horses.


----------



## gottatrot

I was riding with a guy several years ago who was 67 and he told me he was worried I would be offended, but he needed to stop along the way in the woods. He said he had to go more often due to prostate problems. I told him I was a nurse, so wouldn't be offended even if he preferred to just pee off the top of his horse as he rode along.
Not sure if that is possible, might be a good way to practice two pointing.
:grin:

Busy today trying to rustle up a horse for my friend to ride tomorrow. She's the gal who had the concussion last summer, and she's been trying to find a horse to lease for the past several months without success. I've been telling her to let me know if she wants to ride again, but I have to find her another horse to ride since Amore is retired. 

The other thing I'm trying to do is get my new cat in to the vet today because I discovered last night he has a broken canine tooth. No wonder he is thin. Just when I was thinking it would be nice to have one critter that didn't have bad teeth! Amore has a wave mouth that has to be kept up on each year, and Halla develops points that begin to dig into her cheeks by the time for her yearly dental. 
When I brought my dog in at a year old to have some retained puppy teeth pulled, they told me he'd always have dental issues, and yes, he's had a few teeth pulled now by age 9. And my other cat also has had a dead tooth and several others pulled. 

I said I'm going to start an animal rescue someday called "Toothless Sanctuary." It will need to have a full time animal dentist on staff.


----------



## Hondo

bsms said:


> I'm just trying to picture my neighbors' reactions to my strolling around ****ing on our fence. Might need to live on more than 2 acres of land to pull that one off without complaint!


Ya just gotta be creative! Me? I'm a mile and half from my nearest neighbor.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> wouldn't be offended even if he preferred to just pee off the top of his horse as he rode along.
> Not sure if that is possible, might be a good way to practice two pointing


It's possible.. and quite awkward when it happens without warning..

I was passing someone on trail, after having asked ok to pass and been waved on. I came even with a gentleman i didn't know (later found out it was a foreign rider), who suddenly reached into his tights and felt comfortable enough to demonstrate that skill as we came by. :eek_color:

Thankfully, he aimed the opposite direction!

That is also apparently normal for some ultra marathoners, as I have seen it a few different times during the Vermont 100 (where runners and riders are on the same trail at the same time). Running while peeing seems amazing to me!


----------



## gottatrot

It was a relief to hear from the vet last night our new cat is basically healthy. He has a bladder infection, and the broken tooth, but he's now on antibiotics and pain medication and the tooth can come out in a couple weeks once he's over the infection. He is so docile about being handled that I worried he might have something serious underlying such as kidney failure or feline Leukemia. But all the blood tests were good. 

I had some sad news yesterday, my good little friend Rocky the mini horse had to be put down. He is the second horse I know this winter that was put down in his mid-20s due to Cushing's. Both horses had serious hoof problems from the Cushing's, something Amore has thankfully avoided so far.
Here's sweet little Rocky being driven by Nala's rider this past year. He's the horse that taught us all to drive, since we didn't have anyone to teach us except the internet. Learning to put a harness on is difficult from photos too, but we eventually figured out how to do it correctly.









I have to confess that the weather has been keeping me in more than usual. I've been doing the horse chores and not much else outdoors. It feels wrong to complain since our temperatures are nothing compared to most people's winter temps. Today it has been 32 to 37F.

My friend "K" I went riding with today is spending her first winter down from Anchorage, and she says our 32F feels more like Alaska's 0 degrees. Although it seems dry to me, she says it is a moist cold down here that makes it feel much colder. I do remember coming back for a visit when I briefly lived in Minnesota and thinking the same thing. At 20 degrees in Chicago or Minneapolis it might sometimes feel OK to wear short sleeves outside. 

We are just not used to cold weather. We even had snow a couple days ago, a bare inch that melted soon, but that is still unusual for us. 

Nala's rider has been getting out more than I have, and they have a new friend, a Friesian mare they've been meeting up with on the beach. I hope to ride with them soon.








When they are together, Nala has to be the brave one. If the Friesian is worried, she just stops and thinks. Here is what a Friesian does when another horse gets excited and wants to gallop:








She stops to watch. Apparently the only gait where she shows any excitement is the trot. 
They were out near sunset last night while I was in staying warm. I missed the text asking if I'd like to come, otherwise I would have been out there too.








This afternoon we took Halla and Nala out with "K" on Satin. Satin had not been ridden since the summer, the last time K was out. So we walked and trotted only for about an hour, which was also good because Nala had done a lot of galloping the day before, and because Halla had not been out in two weeks. K is still rebuilding confidence after her concussion, this is only her third ride. She is actively looking for a horse to lease, hopefully a nice calm one she says. Satin is not that horse, although she did not prance very much today. We tried to keep things mellow.

It was a beautiful late afternoon ride, with very little wind. I just have to figure out how to keep my toes warm. Nala's rider says wool socks are the answer. I just have thin cotton athletic socks in my non-insulated boots because I have no plans for long term cold weather, I just assume it won't last. But this year it is lasting far too long. Where is the rain?


----------



## egrogan

Sorry to hear about Rocky 

I am both looking forward to and dreading Izzy's spring blood draw to see if Cushings can't explain her weird weight issues and muscle loss. She was in normal ranges this fall but so many of the symptoms fit...


----------



## Hondo

Also sorry about Rocky. What's that big smile on the drivers face? I think it must mean she's having fun!

I just read that Cushing's was from a tumor on the pituitary gland. Sounds like that's something that just happens. Maybe from the insecticides on hay?

I lived on the Pacific Coast in the town of Pacifica for several years. A standard visitor saying was, "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in Pacifica.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

So sorry about Rocky. I'm going to have Ghost tested for cushings, he's always been a wooly beast and is losing more weight this winter than I expected. He hasn't had the hoof problems though. He might be just legitimately getting old. Last estimate was in his 30's....


----------



## gottatrot

I've read that the long coat is one thing that is not linked to any other condition besides Cushing's. So if horse gets a progressively longer and thicker coat each year, it's a probable sign. 

Some pictures from our ride yesterday:
Me and K on Satin:









Halla's smoothest jog but still not gentle enough that I sit.  Talking away about something:









One moment, Halla is calm and sweet:









The next moment she tells Nala, "Pay attention and listen to your boss!" Nala never cares about the horrible faces. We actually think she likes it when Halla takes charge, she seems comforted.









A moment later, calm again:


----------



## Hondo

Thanks for that tip. I was noticing just today that Karoteen's hair sure seems long this year and it hasn't been very cold at all this year. Most of the horses have not really developed a winter coat. She's over 30 yo. I'll be asking the ranch if they see the same or if it's just me.

One of the ranch owners that used to do all the shoeing is supposed to help me try to trim Dragon tomorrow. He is standing under and apparently hurting so bad that he just doesn't want to hold a foot up that long.

If we can't do it gentle doubling up on him, I want to try Bute. If that doesn't work I'll talk to the vet about giving him some ACE and letting me trim him there.

Too far out for the vets to come to the ranch.


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## gottatrot

I have had vets let me just pick up some ACE from their office to give for hoof trimming. It was something we tried on a couple of horses. It is pretty easy to give. It did help one horse, but Halla never seemed to notice the ACE at all. :-?

Have you tried having him stand on a block of wood? This farrier shows some good tips on how to leave the hoof resting on the ground, use blocks of wood with the toe hanging over, etc.


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## Hondo

Thanks @gottatrot

I like the block of wood trick. I do use a hoof stand as my knees do not allow the farrier pretzel stance. And I have rested Hondo's hoof on my knee while kneeling also. Good stuff.

I like the idea of working on a hind while it's resting on the toe.

During the morning when the sun is out, Dragon will often lie down. He will allow me to do anything to his feet then. Clean, scrape around, treat with CS solution or Lysol. If he raises up I can often stroke his head and get him to lie flat again.

So I have achieved some but not really enough and trying to lift his foot to really trim it causes him to want to sit up to see what's going on.

I did succeed in getting him to rest one hoof on the stand long enough to get one heel which left him terribly imbalanced. I wound up using a sawzall blade attached to a hand handle to saw off the other half to leave him so so balanced. I also used the same blade to trim his toes back a ways while standing in the dirt. I just let the blade run down into the dirt.

The other feet have not been trimmed at all, ever. He is a 5 YO.

If I can get his fronts trimmed correctly and one really good treatment with TB, I think he may let me pick up his feet. Or I may have to treat him for two or three weeks before he's ok with the pain. He is super affectionate and super willing on anything that does not involve pain. He'll even stop eating in order to be stroked and groomed.

I will look into the ACE. That is what the vet used to remove the sarcoid from Hondo's ear and it worked well. Just didn't think of that. I think they use that for gelding also.


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## Hondo

I'm reading on one site that ACE does not block pain but just depresses motor responses and a local anesthetic is used along with ACE when doing minor surgery.

Thoughts?

The use of Acepromazine (ace) in horses


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## gottatrot

I was reading that ACE is actually an antipsychotic drug, that has a side effect of sedation. Apparently it's main effect is blocking dopamine reception to the brain. So for some horses this can be very sedating, and for others it doesn't affect them much. 

Many of the sedating drugs have no effect on pain, but still can help because the animal is drowsy. We often use sedatives without pain medication when doing painful procedures to humans because you don't feel pain when you are asleep. That being said, if ACE is not sedating enough for a horse, it's not going to help at all if the horse is having pain.

A better drug (if the vet would give it to you) might be Dormosedan. It is a sedative you can give orally, and I've used it several times. I have not used it for trimming, and it might be tricky if the horse gets very sedated and is wobbly. We used it for Halla after her severe knee injuries. It was very bad timing for her since we had just gotten a new vet and her previous vet had given her a needle phobia several months prior by jabbing her 7 times trying to get a vein. 

Since she had a severe injury, she was in a lot of pain and it didn't seem like a good time to think about getting her used to needles, so the vet had me give her the oral Dormosedan prior to her arrival a couple of times. She was sedated by the time the vet arrived so she could clean her knees well and give her antibiotic shots. Although she was sedated, after a couple of treatments the vet was able to give her shots much more easily and we got her over her fear of needles. The new vet was able to get in her veins with one clean stick, and we've had no more problems.

The vet said to be sure to wear gloves when giving the Dormosedan because it can absorb through your skin, and also to make sure the medicine gets underneath the tongue. You can't just feed it with food or it doesn't work.

https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/476-product-knowledge-new-way-to-sedate-problem-horses


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## Hondo

Well, today I was shown just how green I am at horse savvy.

I called one of the ranch owners, Tom, who has done all the ranch shoeing for the last 35 years except the last few due to health problems. He OK'd me taking Dragon to the vets but would like to look at him first.

So he and Mary, who was born on the ranch and has done all the training for the last 35 years came over to "my" place which is actually on "their" place.

Mary, with her entire 4'-11" 98 pounds of weakling (NOT!) commenced to putting Dragon through his paces. Likely the first for 4.5 years. And oh, they forgot to tell me the cue all are taught. Tap three times on P2 and if they don't pick it up, then pull up by the fetlock. Not sure that mattered as I was able to pick his feet up but just couldn't keep them there. 

So with Mary holding and Tom lifting, within 15 minutes he was leaving his feet on the stand, relaxed face, looking around to as if nothing was going on. It wasn't all perfectly smooth but smooth enough that I told Dragon several times he had been "funning" me all the time.

We did get both fronts reasonably trimmed although their were some differences on what and how much should be taken from where. Too much frog removed but it'll grow back. The big thing is that I am now certain I can do it alone. I also picked up all feet and held them. And we held the hinds. Took a few tries and they had to go. I can do them eventually.

I learned more in what ran into about 1 1/2 hours than I could have learned from videos or a book in 6 months. Learned a lot about youngsters etc. Tom believed he may have trimmed him once or twice during the first 6 months. When I was talking about all his antics Tom turned to Mary, "Wasn't he the one that was always carrying his dish around?"

Has he over been loaded? "He always preferred to eat in a trailer".

I think everything will be mostly down hill from here.

Have to be careful answering the questions of those as green as I. Dragon needed no medication, he just needed a competent handler.

I'd have given good odds that we would have accomplished zero. Sooooo much to learn.


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## gottatrot

Great to hear that Dragon got a trim! It's also good to hear you will have an easier time now handling his feet and doing the trimming yourself. 
Yes, experienced people can do things fairly easily that greener people think are very difficult.

And here's what people do that have experience and should know better:
I reached under Halla's neck to steer her head toward me to give her Vitamin E tonight. Poked her right in the eye, not paying enough attention and she jerked her head away (naturally) and almost knocked me out since my head was right there next to hers. 
Have a cute little shiner above my left eye now.


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## Hondo

How Kewl! 

This might be the time for me to confess Hondo bit me on Christmas eve at almost exactly the same time he was presented to me as a gift two years earlier.

He is not food aggressive at all but as any earthy creature is food anxious when hungry. He is the only one of the three that normally follow me to the hay barn when I carry hay out by the flakes. I always stuff one in his face to have a bite so he won't starve before I get to his trough.

It was dark, cold, and blustery. I was ill clad and in a hurry. So I was carrying two flakes in my left hand and one in my right, distracted and in a hurry. I was sort of holding my left hand out with the two flakes to keep them off of me.

Hondo apparently thought I was handing him a bite a usual. Oh man! Did that hurt! I'll have a scar. Probably should have had stitches but it bled a lot and was clean so I sprayed it down with Hondo's Vetericyn and bandaged it up.

I did not feel or express the tiniest bit of anger towards him. Myself? Yes, big time.

Never-the-less, Hondo apparently knew and understood what had happened. For about the next week or more he would not even come near the hay barn. He stood patiently 50 feet away at his trough and did not even look at me as I fed Rimmey first who is dominant. And he waited until I got his flake placed securely under the grate before beginning to eat.

He has finally returned to food anxious or food happy but I pay a lot more attention to what I'm doing.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I was sort of holding my left hand out with the two flakes to keep them off of me.
> 
> Hondo apparently thought I was handing him a bite a usual. Oh man! Did that hurt! I'll have a scar.


I've also distractedly given horses my own hands to eat. Haven't been bitten that way yet, but it's been close. It's easy to do, forgetting they can't see a thing down there and are going by smell and feel. Luckily, my horses have noticed my hands feel different than carrots. I saw a guy, new to horses stick a carrot in a horse's mouth and then his thumb, which almost got bitten off. The horse looked disturbed - not quite the crunch and taste he was looking for.

We're having some rain and wind today...sure feels nice to have some balmy 50 degree weather. Should be cleared up in a couple days when I'm ready to ride.

Nala and her rider got caught by a pro photographer the other day. I don't know about the legalities so here's the link, 4th photo down. Not sure if it works if you don't have FB. I thought it was a pretty great photo.
https://www.facebook.com/WildlifePhotographybyRickyNelson/?fref=nf&pnref=story

My next saddle to try is on the way. 
It's a Passier Nicole Grand Gilbert Dressage saddle:









The reasons I went with this one...it has really great reviews, people say it is a saddle that doesn't attempt to put you in a certain position. The seat is not too deep, and it is supposed to have a narrow twist. I got a 17.5, which is bigger than I've been riding in, so hopefully it will allow me to sit a little farther back and put my leg farther forward. The knee rolls are small, and supposedly won't get in my way.

It has short tree points, which is supposed to be good for the big shouldered, flatter withered horses like Halla because the harder parts sit above and don't attempt to match the shoulder shape. The channel is wide and the panels are wide, so hopefully it will have good weight distribution. The leather is supposed to be good and tough, but the seat hard. I can put my fleece seat saver on if it is too hard. I really hope if fits! The used price was very good.


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## gottatrot

*A Discussion about Trust: Part 1*

@Reiningcatsanddogs sent me a PM and we had a great little discussion, which I thought some might be interested if I shared it (with her permission).

(Reiningcatsanddogs
I've read (some of what you've written) on trust and perhaps some clarification would change my initial disagreements with some of what I think you were relaying. I'm not attempting to be disagreeable, I am trying to reconcile what you have experienced and what I have experienced and understand.

Where we differ I think (?) is that I do not agree that a normal, level headed, thinking horse cannot overcome instinct and look to us for security or, that once that relationship has been established, that it does not play an active role in what a horse will or will not do in a challenging situation. 

IME they are very capable of overcoming instinct in many, many cases. Training plays a role, natural personality plays a huge part but, also, I believe, trust does as well. In a horse who is a nervous ninny like my Cowboy, I see a huge difference when my husband works with him and when I do. For whatever reason he jumps at everything like a cat on a hot tin roof when I am around. 

Oliver is the opposite. 

There was a time I had Oliver tied to the trailer ready to tack up and I left to heed the call of nature, leaving him at the trailer standing with my trainer. When I got back, trainer told me Oliver was visually glued to me, completely ignored his presence and became distressed as soon as I was out of sight (I had gone down a steep incline). He then calmed back down as soon as I re-appeared. 

This was despite his BFF trail buddy standing tied ten feet away in a place we frequented more than once a week over years and a man he had also known for years. 

Oliver acted just like an insecure buddy soured horse who had been separated from his herd mate; got all jiggy, high headed, calling to me and trying to follow.

Using the K.I.S.S. principle and using horse-to-horse behavioral patterns as a guide, it would appear that he is attached to me because I give him something he values (not unlike a human relationship really. Who stays with someone that gives them nothing, be it intellectual stimulation, a sense of purpose or a good laugh?)

Just as the other horses gain security by Oliver’s presence, and follow his instructions, he gains security by mine. He feels safer, less stressed when I am there and even when something frightening surprises him, he follows my lead about what to do next.

Take gunshots for instance. In Texas it is legal to shoot and hunt on your land if you have more than ten acres. A lot of us have bermed ranges in our yards for practicing. An unexpected gunshot nearby will ring out (in the limestone hills, it can sound like it was fired just behind you and actually be a couple of lots over). 

Oliver might flinch (equal to my own), the rest of the horses run off in a panic a few feet before realizing that Oliver has not moved and stop running. Oliver looks at me when he flinches just like the other horses look at him after their initial reaction if I don’t run, or show concern he doesn’t either.

In another more recent incident, my husband led Oliver up from the lower pasture to the upper paddock. Oliver balked with him three times; upon leaving the other horses, going down the steep incline to the creek and once again approaching the back of the neighbor’s house where the pack of five hell-hounds like to come flying off the deck barking and charging. 

He does not do that with me even when the dogs actually do charge at us barking and snarling. He keeps calmly following me. 

It is obvious that the dogs have scared him and he recognizes them as a danger, demonstrated by his reluctance to follow my husband without verifying the situation first. But with me, he walks on without hesitation…his instinct tells him to run but, a learned trust that I will handle the situation seems to have overridden that. He's still scared and very aware of the danger but, presses on. 

(My husband feeds them once a day, handles them regularly and does their feet. Oliver is not unfamiliar with him or with the walk up to the paddock. DH has never ridden him.) 

My trainer has said that Oliver is as much of a one-person horse as he has ever encountered. Not in a mean way that he will be a bitter pill for everyone else, only that he is unusually attached to me and trusts me without question. 

He theorizes it is because I got him out of that hellish situation where he was being starved to death and Oliver associates me specifically with safety, comfort and a consistently fair hand. 

Other people who have not proven themselves are to be treated with suspicion and caution which is probably closer to his actual nature.

His trust seems to follow into the saddle given the times we have had issues doesn't fill one hand.

Trying to reconcile our two perspectives.

Thoughts?


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## gottatrot

*A Discussion about Trust: Part 2*



> Originally Posted by Reiningcatsanddogs
> Using the K.I.S.S. principle and using horse-to-horse behavioral patterns as a guide, it would appear that he is attached to me because I give him something he values (not unlike a human relationship really. Who stays with someone that gives them nothing, be it intellectual stimulation, a sense of purpose or a good laugh?)
> 
> Just as the other horses gain security by Oliver’s presence, and follow his instructions, he gains security by mine. He feels safer, less stressed when I am there and even when something frightening surprises him, he follows my lead about what to do next.
> I am always happy to converse about horses, and always interested in knowing if my ideas are correct. I can't do that unless someone presents another perspective. I didn't know anyone actually ever read my blog, LOL. Haven't posted anything over there for awhile because the forum has been meeting my need to talk about horses.


Here's something I wrote:


> When horses see things that they perceive as potentially life-threatening or dangerous, they will always trust their own judgment first. This does not mean they don’t trust you or have a good relationship with you, any more than it means you don’t trust your friend if you decide to run out of a building that is on fire. But you are not a three year old child anymore than your horse is, so you make your own decisions when it comes to life or death.


I believe that some horses develop an incredible amount of trust in their trustworthy person. To me it sounds like Oliver views you as his lead horse, just as the other horses think of him that way. He looks to you for direction when he is not sure about a situation.

What I have an issue with is something I've discussed with others about how different horses are different, and many people believe that every horse you work with should develop that same kind of trust you have with Oliver. Which it is possible to develop a very strong and trusting relationship with a horse. But they take it another step, and believe that if the horse does not look to you for direction in every situation, then it means the horse does not have a good relationship with you or fully trust you. 

For instance, they will take a horse into a brand new and terrifying situation, such as bringing the horse to see the ocean on a day when kites are flying and fires burning on the beach. If in this case the horse gets upset and doesn't behave as fully obediently and with full attention on the handler as they did at home, the person becomes upset and emotional, thinking they have failed to develop a good relationship with the horse.

Oliver might believe fully that you will never let him down because you never have, and that your judgment is perfect. Other horses may never trust a human that far, even if they have a great relationship with the human, if the human is a great trainer, and if they have always presented a confident and consistent strength to the horse. But those horses may never trust another horse that far either, and will always spook and run if a gun is fired. 

I also believe that if Oliver truly, truly felt his life was in danger at the moment, and you did something that went against what he felt would save his life, he would stop following your direction and save his own life. Such as if a helicopter was crashing down from the sky on top of the two of you and you decided to stand firm. 

But I believe that some horses that are not confident and have not had enough experience in life might interpret something less severe as immediately life threatening, and also ignore their trusted person in that moment. Even if it just a kite that banks down and shoots toward them on the beach, making a loud noise.

This is where I think some people have a disconnect, they don't understand how seriously their horse may see a situation, and believe that trust should get them through everything if they have a proper relationship with a horse. It might, but it also might not and that is nothing to take personally against the horse or yourself. 

My opinion is not that horses can't overcome instinct and listen to a handler (except for the startle reflex), it's that if a horse does not overcome instinct it is not necessarily a bad reflection on a horse's relationship with a human.

My friend says if any horse is bonded well with their owner, they should be able to have a bear pop up in front of them several feet away and stand calmly, trusting their owner and listening if the owner says it is OK. I say it will depend on the individual horse more than the relationship they have with their human.
I'd be interested to hear what you think.


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## gottatrot

*A Discussion about Trust: Part 3*

(posted by @Reiningcatsanddogs)

I think many horses and owners can achieve the point of trust that I have with Oliver. Not every single one but, many more than I think is reflected in general outlooks, namely because people are taught it can't happen. It depresses me greatly when I hear from some members that have spent a lifetime with horses, advocating methods that go for a quick fix over a solid one. 

The reason I was asking about all of this was to gain your perspective having dealt with far more reactionary flight oriented horses than I have. I agree that not all horses are the same but, they do have fear in common. I'm trying to understand what happens in their minds that makes their reactions to that emotion so different. 

Where I think we probably disagree, is that I do not believe that seemingly calm horses do not experience fear to the same degree as a flighty one. Generally, my theory is it comes down to the seemingly pre-programed fight or flight response. This occurred to me while watching a video a while back of horses going through police training where they monitored heart rates of horses put into stressful situations. 

IMO, contrary to what a lot of people think, the bold horses are equally scared but, display it differently than perhaps a more reactionary/spooky horse. They choose to fight rather than flee. They also are more easily given the label of "dangerous" or "Spoiled".

Some horses are neither here nor there and will respond either way depending on the situation. Those are the ones that might be able to be made more solid with the development of trust.

People look at Oliver and say he is confident, self assured and nearly bomb proof. They call him brave. I know though, that handled the wrong way, he becomes the opposite because I have seen it happen with him in a flash. 

When Oliver injured my trainer, he was scared. I don't know if it was for himself though, or for Caspian.

Caspian was being ridden in another area of the arena, by a gal that I no longer feel the need to employ, he was bucking,head tossing and she was hitting him with a crop, spurring him and he was beyond distressed with her attempts to canter him with "contact" and "collected". 

Before I could go over to her to say something (like get off! ), Oliver suddenly tried to veer over towards Caspian, when my trainer tried to strongly redirect him, Oliver got frightened by the sudden increased pressure and started to crow hop, buck and spin. Unlike little Caspian, Oliver was big enough to fight back. He took a stand and fought. 

Just like a horse who is prone to flight when they are scared, he flips into fight mode. It wasn't the first time I had seen him do that...each time it was with rough handling that confused and scared him. I could tell, because I know that horse!

We humans assign our own emotional understandings to a bold horse who misbehaves as anger, obstinacy or rebellion. It never occurs to us that across the gamut of tendencies and personalities that they are still animals of prey, they are still horses. That maybe what we call calm or brave is simply the display of a primal preference for fight or flight rather than the absence or mitigation of experienced fear.

It is my theory that both a seemingly bold horse and a flighty one are responding to the same stimulus and to the same degree of fear, it simply manifests differently in either fight or flight, pre-wired tendencies by evolution. 

Funny that you mention helicopters crashing down. Last spring we had two over our pasture when a neighbor went missing on a hike on the mountain that backs up to our pasture. 

Two horses (Bella and the colt) were franticly running around the entire two hours in a panic and were a sweaty mess. Cowboy was nervously watching them but, sticking near Oliver who was visibly agitated but, standing his ground, calling to Bella and the Colt. Cowboy and Caspian were obviously frightened, though not visibly panicking, following Oliver around, Ghost was following Cowboy. 

Once we showed up, gave them a few scratches, Oliver, Ghost and Caspian went back to eating like it was no big deal. Cowboy continued to be nervous. The Mare and colt continued their frantic panic despite everything we tried to settle them.

At times the copters were no more than twenty feet over head swerving in and out over the mountain then sweeping down and hovering right over the paddock with the round bale (no trees there). We joined in the search (we were invited as we know that mountain well). The lady was found in a canyon, having fallen, broken her pelvis and had a concussion. 

Fear has always fascinated me. With people, it causes everything from extramarital affairs to murder. It makes some soldiers into heroes and others into cowards. It starts wars and ends them. 

We humans tend to assume that the visible response is reflective of the intensity of the emotion. Is it really or could it simply be that the intensity is the same but, for a variety of reasons including training, trust, experience, as well as the individual's predisposition to fight or flight, that it manifests very differently leading us to assume that the observably brave horse isn't feeling as frightened?


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## gottatrot

*A Discussion about Trust: Part 4*

Originally Posted by Reiningcatsanddogs


> I think many horses and owners can achieve the point of trust that I have with Oliver. Not every single one but, many more than I think is reflected in general outlooks, namely because people are taught it can't happen. It depresses me greatly when I hear from some members that have spent a lifetime with horses, advocating methods that go for a quick fix over a solid one.


I actually think we are coming from the same place, which is advocating that people don't blame the horse. 

I do agree that horses that don't flee may be feeling the same fear at times, but have the response to stand and face their fear rather than flee.
Any horse that explodes is dangerous, whether they are running off or staying there and panicking. All good horsemen must understand how to read the horse, to know if the horse is feeling trapped or afraid and not push the horse too far. That applies to reactive horses and calm horses. 

It may not relate to the fear being felt, but some horses seem to have a much longer time before they react to their fear, whether they stay or run. These horses are much easier to build trust with initially, because they learn much sooner that trust in this human = safety.

Your perspective seems to be that it is important to understand that just going for the quick fix will not build the trusting relationship with the horse, even if the horse seems compliant. Since so many people ride horses that are non-reactive, this is very important. I agree very much.

My perspective (or point, in the blog), is that even when someone builds up a good, trusting relationship with a horse, many horses may still react to things on occasion and this is no reflection on the horse's worth or even many times your relationship with the horse. 

Like you, it frustrates me when people feel horses are bad, worthless, evil, and more. Where you have seen this is when the quick fix didn't work, because the person did not slowly build up a good and trusting relationship with the horse, allowing communication both ways. I have seen that too. 

What I have also seen is people who believe their slow methods are fool proof, and that just because they have built up a trusting relationship, the horse will never fail to behave the way they wish. They also then believe the horse is bad, worthless, and more because they did everything right but the horse still spooked, spun and ran, and they fell off, or got stepped on. 

These tend to be people who practice natural horsemanship methods, not that I am against NH as a whole, and also people who have raised their horse from a foal to be bomb proof. Yes, they have a good relationship with the horse, yes, the horse has been exposed to many things. Yes, the horse may still get too frightened to listen and trust them at times.

(End of conversation) :grin:


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## Hondo

I'll be pondering this conversation for quite some time................


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I hope Gottatrot is not going to mind me posting this here as it is an extension of our conversation. My brain has always worked in unusual ways…I see connections. Between people’s heads and their behaviors, in nature, in events.

Our conversation cut to the chase rather quickly. I wanted y’all to see where this is all going with me and where my research has been directed.

One of the things that I have observed and has puzzled myself, my trainer and my vet, is something that happens when we ride out. Oliver has heaves. Some times of year, when the pollen counts, dust or mold are very high, his heaves can be seen as labored breathing, audible wheezing and of course coughing. 

Of interesting note, about 20 minutes into a ride his heaves disappear completely. We just walk and I’ll let him trot if he feels like it and over time, he is breathing normally. It puzzled all three of us, since the current wisdom is that a horse with heaves should not exert themselves because it will further inflame and irritate the bronchial passages.

Being an asthmatic myself, I can say that without my inhaler, if I push myself on a bad day, it is quite possible that I would pass out from lack of oxygen. Yet the opposite was happening to Oliver. He was breathing much more freely after a two-hour ride than before he was ridden. Doc was scratching his head when I told him this.

The only answer any of us was able to come up with is a natural release of Epinephrine. To the best of my knowledge, epinephrine, also known as adrenaline is not something that your body typically oozes out unless you are in a fight or flight situation (some claim that chronic fatigue syndrome is caused by a malfunction of the system where Epinephrine is slowly leaked, but it is not normal).

Was Oliver perceiving our rides out as a fight or flight situation and therefore releasing adrenaline?

“Adrenaline is the stress hormone that is secreted by the adrenal glands of the kidneys. Adrenaline rushes happen when the adrenal glands suddenly secrete large amounts of the hormone at once. These rushes are triggered when the brain determines a high fight or flight reaction is necessary. For this reason it does not take a physical stress or pain to trigger because it can be an “imagined” or perceived situation or threat.” 
What Happens to the Body During an Adrenaline Rush? | Forefront Beverly Hills 

In other words, there does not have to be an actual threat, only a perceived or imagined one.

Is my brave and confident horse imagining/anticipating a threat (psychologically a whole 'nother can of worms) out on the trail just like you would expect from a much more apparently high strung horse? 

The whole ride, outwardly he is the calmest of calm, king of cool, the horse that the others follow, the leader and the horse that all my trail companions want to have. They say he is the bravest most confident horse they have ever seen…..is he though? 

Epinephrine release would say otherwise. Deep down where we humans can’t see, he is in fight or flight mode throughout the ride just like an obviously skitterish horse (my Cowboy)…he just happens to be more of a fighter (stand your ground) than a flight-er (Run, run away!)

The next questions: Did the training methods we use effect the way he outwardly deals with his fear? How? Why?
What effects did the efforts made toward building trust have, if any?


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## Hondo

A heart rate monitor might provide some suggestions/insights, or not.

I think it was you, @Reiningcatsanddogs that mentioned the HRM in another thread during police training for horses to determine the fear levels.

I would suppose you'd need to establish some base levels in the paddock first, with and without exercise.

It seems though, that this could have the potential of providing some really good information for not only you and Oliver, but for others as well, myself included.

I have threatened to do similar as I have a HRM at hand and have used it in the past for gauging output on long steep hills along with rest and recovery times.

But so far other things have gotten it the way of having it on 100% of the time in order to check it when Hondo does get nervous.

Would have been interesting when a helicopter was rising and dropping on top of us multiple times trying to spook the cows on through the wing walls and into the corral. I mean dropping down to the 20 foot tree tops and blowing off leaves before rising back up 20 feet or so.

Hondo was scared out of his wits but he stayed with me, within 10 feet or so, until I decided he had had enough and took pity on him. We pulled out about 100 feet and when a couple just would not go, the helicopter backed out and waved us in. Hondo went on in and put those two cows into the corral per normal.

After reading what you guys wrote and thinking about that, it makes me want to go out and embrace him. :loveshower:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I'll have to see what kind of HRM I can find for horses. I would have to get at least two though because I'd have to put one on Cowboy, Mr. Spooky, for comparison. Problem is, confounding factors (Cowboy isn't in as good of shape) and being able to weight them...dang I hate having to do that in an experiment!

Oh, and do give Hondo a nice hug and wither scratch, they never get enough of those.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Oh, and do give Hondo a nice hug and wither scratch, they never get enough of those.


Oh it's the belly scratch that really get's him swooning. Have to watch it though or he'll like it so much that he wants to return the favor! 

The only brand of HRM to buy is Polar, IMHO. I've had a few going back 40 years.

It would be interesting to compare two horses on the same timeline, particularly if you spent enough for one that saved info and can be printed out.

But it would seem that quite a bit of info could be gleaned by just measuring at rest and waking and /or trotting in the paddock. And then comparing to the trail and particularly if/when something scary happened.

And then that could be repeated with another horse. So a purchase of only one would be necessary.

I bought one with no bells or whistles to save money but I was really nervous about Hondo pushing himself more than he should on long climbs. I actually wear the wrist monitor as a wrist watch and am wearing it right now. It can't be turned off so why not. The chest monitor turns off automatically when there is no conduction from on contact to another.

The horse needs to work up at least a little moisture for the contacts to work. Or salt water can be applied to the contact areas. I've done that to myself.

In hospitals of course they use a contact cream of some sort but it's not needed particularly if the horse develops any moisture at all and they will as the contacts go under the cinch.

Here's mine: https://www.polar.com/us-en/products/equine/equine_inzone


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This is where the confounding factors get sticky…ridden separately, it’s not the same ride exactly; never the same trail twice and all that. You chance encountering something that sets one horse off for the rest of the ride and not the other. The response of one horse to a loud motor bike and then another horse to a bunch of deer….you want to measure the same response to the same stimuli, in the exact same environment for a real comparison.

Ridden together, are you now measuring the effects different riders have on their horses, the buddy effect or ????

I’ll have to take some time and actually think all of this through otherwise it isn’t a legit result.

I also have to overcome the problem that Cowboy has not been ridden in the same places/to the extent that Oliver has so the familiarity factor is not there. I wish my trainer had not moved, I could have used his spooky horse...

Also, How long did it take Hondo to get accustomed to the monitor?


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Also, How long did it take Hondo to get accustomed to the monitor?


There is nothing for him to get accustomed to. He doesn't even know it's there. It's just two soft pads that go under his cinch with a wire connecting them over his wither. Some thoughtfulness needs to be given when placing the wires if riding in the brush, but other wise not much really.

Anytime you want to know the heart rate, just glance down at the wrist watch and there it is. You can watch his heart rate slowly increase as you climb a hill or when trotting it really jumps up there. And then watch it go down when on the level or resting.

So once a person knows what his heart rate is doing in a certain situation, even if it has not been read for the last few minutes, if there is a scare it should be fairly easy to tell if the heart rate is higher than normal.

This would of course not be a scientific study with controls etc but it would at least suggest if that scientific study was something that might be worthwhile.

Found this but not a lot of details: How do horses react to humans fearful of them? - Horsetalk.co.nz

Also stumbled on this is my Googling. Supposed to have something about heart rate but didn't find it. Looks like a good book to buy which I may. https://books.google.com/books?id=s...e&q=horses heart rate when frightened&f=false

Saw something about heart rate and trailering. Now that sounds like an interesting experiment.

I just got back from the ranch and picking up my copy of "Suffering In Silence". I reported that I had cleaned Dragons feet every day since they had given Dragon (and me) a "tuneup", the first he's likely had in over 4 years.

A conversation ensued about trust and a lot of the stuff we've been talking about here. Things like two farriers could do the same exact thing with a horse but the horse might be great with one and a problem for the other.

Then he mention an experience with bees I thought was interesting. He used to have 72 beehives on the ranch. When upset, (usually by his MIL), he noticed that even though wearing a bee suit it was difficult to get anything done as the bees would be all over him. He learned that if he would go off and calm himself and think about good times he could go back and the bees would mostly ignore him.

Six days of Western Oregon weather coming in so I'm glad I've got a good book to read and study.


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## egrogan

Even if you have all those "exogenous" variables (different rider, different weight, different fitness, etc.) if you took enough repeated measures with the same horse, you could still look at changes within that horse's measures over time, controlling for all those outside factors. 

I think you're right that it would be useful to have two horses ridden at once, if you hypothesize that the "scary encounter" is going to effect horses with different fear-response behaviors differently. Let's say you have both your horses on the trail at the same time and a bear appears. You have multiple measures of their resting heart rate and their active heart rate with the rider that's on them. You expect one exhibits fear very visibly, and the other to remain "brave." You look at the change in heart rate for both horses during bear appearance, and you calculate deviation from typical active heart rate and have some lens into whether Mr. Brave is actually showing a "fear" change, calculating his heart rate change from typical active rate. I think you need another horse being scared in the same scenario to determine the magnitude of how scary something is- a little or a lot? Maybe Mr. Brave has a small blip in his heart rate after seeing the bear, but it returns to typical active rate almost instantly, whereas Mr. Scaredycat has a huge jump and the elevation remains at that level the whole rest of the ride. Then maybe Mr. Brave actually is really Mr. Brave after all!

Maybe then you switch riders for awhile, reestablish baseline, and ride again until the bear appears again. You recalculate the fear heart rate change in both horses- maybe it's the same regardless of riders, maybe there's an interaction between the rider and the level of change. Then you might infer that _you _give Mr. Brave confidence he doesn't experience with another rider. Or maybe he really is Mr. Brave always.

Maybe you're never going to run into a bear so that whole scenario wouldn't work- so maybe it's a fear-inducing event that you actually orchestrate (sort of like setting up a haunted house on the trail)- but you probably can't tell the riders that or they're going to telegraph anticipation to the horse. Hmmm...that could be a confound...

Anyway, all sounds pretty interesting to me!! Send me your data and I'll run your analysis


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hmmm. That study is interesting because it is contraindicative of what is commonly believed that a nervous person will rev up a horse. The exact opposite appeared to happen, but, like you pointed out, not many details provided.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Egrogan, I was looking at a HRM that streams constant data to a remote, such as a computer or smartphone...I just have to talk DH into $pringing for two of them which might be the biggest "confounding" factor of all!

...and if I do it, you can most certainly run the numbers for me. No offense Hondo but, I always hated math and statistics!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> It's a Passier Nicole Grand Gilbert Dressage saddle


Just a quick note: In reading Suffering In Silence I just noted that the author did his apprentiship as a master saddler at Passier. Thought of your new saddle when reading this.


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## egrogan

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Egrogan, I was looking at a HRM that streams constant data to a remote, such as a computer or smartphone...I just have to talk DH into $pringing for two of them which might be the biggest "confounding" factor of all!
> 
> ...and if I do it, you can most certainly run the numbers for me. No offense Hondo but, I always hated math and statistics!


Well, my day job is statistical research so the offer stands


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> Well, my day job is statistical research so the offer stands


I've had probability and statistics with a Calc 2 or 3 prerequisite but that was many years ago so if I need any analysis I'll get hold of you also. As I recall, that got a little hairy towards the last.

With two horses there'd have to be some distance between them as the information is transmitted wireless to the wrist watch monitor.

The distance may be given in the directions but when opening gates or whatever, I have noticed that the little pulsating black heart on the watch stops in a very short distance which indicates I'm out of range.

Some of the higer end models for humans have variable frequencies for people running together and also downloadable and printable data. Never heard of any that transmits. But who knows, if it can be thought of someone may have made one.


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## Hondo

FWIW: Looking at the Polar website this morning and (in my absence) they now have a product that allows downloading and printing data as text or as a graph.

And I remembered on waking that my personal HR monitor watch will work with Hondo's chest transmitter. So same frequency. If anyone was interested, I'm sure the personal data collector would likely have the same frequency also and could be used with the equine data transmitter.

Ok, sorry, I do have a little nerd in me. Actually some kind of love/hate relationship with technology.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

DH Nixed my idea for now. He rightly pointed out that I still need $600 of sand for the round pen and that I wanted to get him a saddle that fits him so he can ride with me...sigh. Always more good ideas than $. I guess that is the way of owning horses.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Ok, sorry, I do have a little nerd in me. Actually some kind of love/hate relationship with technology.


Me too. Great ideas about the heart rate monitor. I've thought about getting one many times. I'm sure I will at some point. 

Halla is unusual as far as I can tell, in that you can hear her heart beat audibly when she is nervous. I've asked on this forum and some other places (and my vet), if other people have noted this with horses. So far I haven't heard other people say they have heard this. My vet doesn't seem to think it means anything is wrong. 

I've been in quiet places a few times and heard boom, boom, boom, then looked at my horse and noticed her head was up and ears alert. It gets very loud sometimes. Of course, when we're trotting or cantering along there is too much other noise to hear a heart beating or count the rate.

Today I planned to take Halla out for a ride. Nala's owner is gone for a few days so I have permission to ride her, but I didn't get up early enough to ride both horses, so decided Halla was in most need of exercise. 

Saddling up, Halla stood very still and seemed extra calm. I don't know why I ever think that is a good thing with _this_ horse, when it is out of character for her. Heading up the small section of gravel, I felt a couple bobbles but thought she must have stepped on a rock wrong. We rode over the grassy field, through the gate and onto the asphalt. After ten steps or so I jumped off. Something was wrong. I led her down the asphalt road and she was stepping oddly, setting down her front feet close together.

I brought her back to the round pen and walked, then trotted her around. I couldn't really see where she was lame, it was subtle whatever it was. Of course, being a horse person my thoughts went immediately to disaster - torn tendons, neurological problems, sweeney shoulder (crazy, having seen _one_ horse with sweeney shoulder - he ran into a big draft horse with his shoulder and damaged the nerve - it often pops into my mind as a possible diagnosis). 

What I am guessing is that she has a stone bruise and was tip toeing along on the hard surface. However, I couldn't find any tender spot when tapping my hoof pic on her sole. 
In the round pen, Halla began bouncing and sproinging around instead of trotting, so I couldn't check her gait. There is no way to diagnose lameness when a horse is getting "hang time" which messes up all the rhythm.
Arabs just love to do this. Halla does it really high in the air.





I tried walking her on asphalt again, and could see she was off, so I decided to just take the horses out to graze for awhile and I will reevaluate tomorrow and the next day. If she doesn't seem 100% by Monday I will try to ride Nala.

The black lab wandered down from the house because he needed some sympathy. He was wearing a "cone of shame" for some reason and looked miserable. I patted him and told him other dogs have been in such situations and it turned out OK. Then he walked around behind the barn and came out near Amore's pen. She spotted him and began snorting and rolling her eyes, unsure about this alien creature with the cone shaped head. He began nosing around on the ground, snuffling, like a weird vacuum cleaner creature. Amore didn't quite panic but was getting ready to do something extreme if the cone attacked. At that point, the snuffling cone head wandered back out of sight and Amore remembered she had a bunch of hay sitting there so headed back to start eating again.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

uh oh! I feel your pain on mystery lameness... but you already know the situation with my mare.
I love your writing, its always so vivid. Your impressions of Amore are very funny.
I'm a bit jealous of you as far as Nala. That is one horse I wouldn't have minded trying!


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## Hondo

Dragon came up super lame on his left fore one day. I mean he was really having a hard time just moving at all. Big big ole limp.

I discovered a small hole about 3/16" in diameter about 1" up from the bottom on his hoof wall in the front. It was fresh. Not old damage to the coronary that had grown down. It had dry fresh little feathery edges without any dirt in them. The opening appeared to be about 3/16" deep but may have been deeper when it occurred and sprang back some.

There are some implements and farm equipment in the field and I have speculated since that he impaled his foot on a bolt sticking out somewhere.

I was frantic but after the second day he got better and after two more days all symptoms were gone.

I continue to marvel and be amazed at the horse's foot given the terrain they travel on, their weight, and the energy with which they sometimes travel.

Good on you for noticing something "afoot" and aborting the ride. Who knows, maybe she was kicked in a muscle and it was sore. Fingers crossed.

Meka, my Pyrenees and the horses have an uneasy truce. Her feed is in the shed with the hay as she has a nice cozy place to curl up in. When Hondo is out of food he tells me by standing at the door of the shed. Meka starts eating her food so he can't get it and growls a warning, "If you come any closer I WILL attack".

She doesn't seem to get it in her head that horses eat hay and not dog food. I think I will have to make her a bed in another shed and put her food there.

And I've almost been dumped more than once and actually have been once because of her. As long as the horses can see her, they're fine. But if she stays too long in the blind spot behind them they need to check that she's still there. And if she goes off in the brush harassing the wildlife, they are nervous until she appears. And if she comes out unexpectedly, they of course startle.

It's bad enough that I'm considering leaving Meka behind on rides. There just seems to be something about a huge white dog that bothers most of the horses on the ranch. The cattle dogs don't seem to bother them at all. Meka has went on all my rides for 2 1/2 years and it just has not gotten one bit better.

Hondo is the calmest when Meka is leading where he can keep a close eye on her.


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## knightrider

I love the post about the sproining Arabian. My very close friend had a 3/4 Arabian we nicknamed Pepe LaPew because he sproinged so much. He could literally bounce along on all 4 feet as the filly did a couple of times in your video.


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## tinyliny

what does it feel like to ride a trot like that filly in the video? is it hard to post to? and the 'pronking' canter? 


how could ANYONE stay on a horse that can stop and turn that fast!?


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> I'm a bit jealous of you as far as Nala. That is one horse I wouldn't have minded trying!


I wish you could have stayed longer and ridden both Halla and Nala. I think you would have enjoyed both of them.
@Hondo,
My friend's Australian shepherd used to run ahead when we were almost home and then dive under the water of the creek that ran underneath the barn driveway. He'd come lunging out of the water like a sea monster, with reeds hanging over his head just when the horses were going over the bridge. I'm thinking the more docile horses spooked about the first five times and the Arabs spooked about the first thirty times, but eventually all the horses did get used to it. Even Amore!

When Halla and I are riding with Nala and her rider, the black lab from the barn often comes out to the beach with us. He rarely surprises Halla because she remembers he is there and watches for him. Nala's rider says over and over, "That's our dog. That's the same dog that came with us." I've heard her say that about a hundred times. :wink:

Last week the dog ran ahead and both horses were looking at him when he squatted over to poop. When he assumed this new position, Nala startled, and then froze staring at him. I was laughing at how she thought now he was a different type of creature, the pooping dog versus the normal dog. Since he's black he's startled Amore quite a few times by appearing in the field like an ominous shadow. But she didn't recognize him at all with a cone on his head.
@tinyliny, I think how the sproinging feels all depends on the joints of the horse. Halla is a rough sproinger and hits the ground hard. I've been on some Arabs with very flexible pasterns that feel like you're going up and down on a soft, cushiony ride of happiness. It's like trotting on a trampoline. You rise, but the fall never seems to hit a bottom. Instead, it just flexes and sends you right back up. 

Tonight I was able to narrow down Halla's lameness to her left hip. I could see her favor it on tight turns when walking her up and down the aisle, and when I palpated the actual hip joint she pinned her ears and looked unhappy. Then I massaged it some more and she lowered her head, so that seemed to feel good. I had trimmed her hooves a couple days prior and she hadn't seemed to have an issue, so I'm guessing she either fell or got kicked the day I discovered the problem. More likely she ran into the side of a gate, because I've seen both her and Nala run in through the gates in their field too close to the side and clip themselves on the hip bone. 

Hopefully a few day's rest will let it heal up. She was not putting her front legs close together when she walked, so it might be a little less sore already.


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## phantomhorse13

Coming into this a bit late, but I was away at a ride with no service.




Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The whole ride, outwardly he is the calmest of calm, king of cool, the horse that the others follow, the leader and the horse that all my trail companions want to have. They say he is the bravest most confident horse they have ever seen…..is he though?
> 
> Epinephrine release would say otherwise. Deep down where we humans can’t see, he is in fight or flight mode throughout the ride just like an obviously skitterish horse (my Cowboy)…he just happens to be more of a fighter (stand your ground) than a flight-er (Run, run away!)
> 
> The next questions: Did the training methods we use effect the way he outwardly deals with his fear? How? Why? What effects did the efforts made toward building trust have, if any?


I ride with a HRM a lot.. like just about every ride a lot. I started out with it as a tool to help judge the horse's cardo fitness as we conditioned, and it certainly does help with that.. but I have also found it to be a huge eye-opener in understanding how horses process things. 

Great example from this weekend. I took Duroc out alone during a competition for the first time. While there were of course other horses in the competition, none of them were herdmates nor did I ride with anybody in an attempt to buddy him up. No other horse was in sight for 98% of the time. To _look_ at him on trail, he seemed relaxed and confident:











But the HRM watch told another tale: the entire time, his heartrate was running anywhere from 30 to 80 bpm higher than it normally would have. While every situation is different, I know his normal ranges and this wasn't it. 

So while his training has progressed enough that he could and did go out alone and 'behave himself' (a year ago he was an outwardly anxious mess who was either rearing or running).. it showed he still wasn't unafraid, just handling the stress in an 'acceptable' way.


I have seen the same transformation in my own reactive horse Phin. When I first got him, he was a spook-and-bolt type of guy. He wasn't trying to dump you, just had a great flight response in that he wanted to check out something scary from about 50 feet away. Now, he outwardly reacts much less (generally with just a startle or maybe a startle with one or two steps sideways), but his heart rate still skyrockets. Many people have commented on how much more 'confident' he is now.. but is he _really_? Or has he just learned that I prefer the fight response so he is faking it best he can?




Hondo said:


> The only brand of HRM to buy is Polar, IMHO. I've had a few going back 40 years.


The problem with polar monitors is that you can't change the transmitter batteries yourself. You have to send them back - and the company charges you almost as much as a new one would cost just for the battery replacement. For this reason, I use V-Max products.


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## Hondo

Along with (Polar IMO) I should have added that I was really not current on the technology for the last few years. The V-Max looks interesting. If I need another, I'll need to check it out.

BTW, the batteries can easily be changed in the wrist watch. Takes a special very small torx screwdriver but otherwise it's the same as changing batteries in any other watch.

The transmitter batteries however cannot be replaced, even by polar. Just have to replace the unit. The way you use them, I'd want to be able to replace all batteries as well.

Very interesting on your experiences with the HRM. Not so much on the startle as that's sort of what I expected, but on the solo endurance run I would not have expected that.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

phantomhorse13 said:


> I ride with a HRM a lot.. like just about every ride a lot. I started out with it as a tool to help judge the horse's cardo fitness as we conditioned, and it certainly does help with that.. but I have also found it to be a huge eye-opener in understanding how horses process things.
> 
> Great example from this weekend. I took Duroc out alone during a competition for the first time. While there were of course other horses in the competition, none of them were herdmates nor did I ride with anybody in an attempt to buddy him up. No other horse was in sight for 98% of the time. To _look_ at him on trail, he seemed relaxed and confident:
> 
> But the HRM watch told another tale: the entire time, his heartrate was running anywhere from 30 to 80 bpm higher than it normally would have. While every situation is different, I know his normal ranges and this wasn't it.
> 
> So while his training has progressed enough that he could and did go out alone and 'behave himself' (a year ago he was an outwardly anxious mess who was either rearing or running).. it showed he still wasn't unafraid, just handling the stress in an 'acceptable' way.
> 
> I have seen the same transformation in my own reactive horse Phin. When I first got him, he was a spook-and-bolt type of guy. He wasn't trying to dump you, just had a great flight response in that he wanted to check out something scary from about 50 feet away. Now, he outwardly reacts much less (generally with just a startle or maybe a startle with one or two steps sideways), but his heart rate still skyrockets. Many people have commented on how much more 'confident' he is now.. but is he _really_? Or has he just learned that I prefer the fight response so he is faking it best he can?


So maybe I'm on the right track with Oliver here? Are confidence and bravery the same thing or is it our perceptions that dictate the definition? 

This is the video Hondo referenced earlier...


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So maybe I'm on the right track with Oliver here? Are confidence and bravery the same thing or is it our perceptions that dictate the definition?


I think perception is a lot of it.. but I also will be interested to see how Duroc's rates do or don't change as he gets more experienced with going out alone. It may be that he is never as comfortable alone as when he is with a friend.. but is that truly a surprise in a herd animal? 

The quote that goes something like 'bravery is being afraid and acting anyway' seems very applicable to this type of situation. Perhaps confidence in a horse doesn't mean they aren't afraid, but simply that they are able to put aside their flight response. I also wonder if it helps them recover from the fright faster. I will start paying more attention to how long Phin's heart rate is elevated _after_ a scary situation. It may be that we can never make a horse not afraid through training, but instead shorten the amount of time and/or severity of that fear.


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## Hondo

Oh wow! I did not reference that video and have never seen it but I will gladly take credit. I will download and save it. It's that good.

Was it John Wayne that said something like, "Bravery is when you're scared to death but saddle up anyhow".

So against common sense that the horse acting up was not experiencing as much what would seem visceral fear. Would never have thought........


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> So against common sense that the horse acting up was not experiencing as much what would seem visceral fear. Would never have thought........


Maybe.. but maybe not as uncommon as you think.

Having been around horses the majority of my life, I have learned to temper my own fight or flight reactions because nothing makes a bad situation around horses worse like someone screaming and/or flailing. Example: while the mouse running out of the haybale and up my arm this weekend didn't result in my shrieking or flailing, I can assure you that my heart rate doubled if not tripled during the experience. 

Was I less afraid than the person who would have screamed and run in the same scenario? Sure didn't feel that way to me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Sorry Hondo, I thought that was the one you remembered me posting a while back. 

This vid I found after my trainer suggested it might be fun and useful to have Oliver and myself go through getting him certified as a Police horse because he appeared so unflappable and accepting of new things. Since I have no desire to show and he has so much training on him, he thought it would add to Oliver’s value should I ever need to sell

My dad always said when I was scared, I should make like a duck. Calm and cool on the surface and paddling like hell underneath. It has come in handy more than once.


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## Hondo

Wait a minute, was the mouse on the outside or inside of your shirt sleeve? Inside would have bothered me for fear of a a bite induced disease. On the outside? No problem. Well, a little problem. Mice I am to understand have an incontinence problem.

I was just thinking that the average horse person would have guessed the acting up horse had the highest heart rate. Apparently your outwardly appearing calm horse on the endurance run was another suggesting it is common. I need to start hooking up my HRM.

RCD, I think when you posted that was when I was having a problem with Windows 10 using up all my band width. I'm back on 7 now.

Just occurred to me while typing, be interesting to see what the "calming" stuff does to the heart rate if any.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Wait a minute, was the mouse on the outside or inside of your shirt sleeve? Inside would have bothered me for fear of a a bite induced disease. On the outside? No problem. Well, a little problem. Mice I am to understand have an incontinence problem.


Sleeveless shirt, so thank goodness it stayed on the outside of my clothing. The mouse was not the only one with a possible incontinence issue. :rofl: While I am not afraid of mice in general, I certainly am afraid of an unexpected critter running up a part of my body!

But upon realizing it was a mouse, the fear stopped. And isn't that what we hope from our horses, to pause and think before just blindly reacting?


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## Hondo

Very quick wit! :rofl:

When @gottatrot gets back she's gonna send us all to the principle.


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## gottatrot

One of the most physically afraid times in my life I remember was as a kid when my pet mouse escaped from her cage and walked over my face when I was asleep. I woke up with every hair standing straight on end, and my adrenaline surging. I grabbed what was on my face, but strangely my mind acted so fast that the instant I felt soft fur my hand relaxed and I didn't crush or fling the mouse, but just cradled my hand around her and picked her up. I think being kind to animals is an instinct for me. :wink:
@Reiningcatsanddogs: Thank you for sharing that video! Very good information. I am more used to riding horses that radiate their nerves throughout their body and reflect it in their posture. It is very helpful for me to know that the horse appearing calm and not moving their feet might actually be more afraid. It makes sense to me that a horse overriding the instinct to stop, check things out, keep distance or keep moving might have more fear of an object harming them than one that is following natural "how to stay safe" behaviors.

I agree that it can be similar to people. I am a person who naturally does not react to things outwardly. I might say "uh oh," where someone else might be screaming and jumping three feet backwards. But when I say "uh oh," I might be completely freaked out inside. We teach horses how to react less outwardly to things. I wish I could teach some people how to react less sometimes. Yet that might actually cause them more internal stress, if they are similar to horses.

Halla was still lame today, very stiff appearing in the hind end and not moving well. I will give her several more days to improve before calling the vet but I read a lot about possible hip issues online and I am worried she could have some kind of stress fracture. That would be worst case, obviously, but from what I was reading they often don't heal well. Regardless, there is not a lot to do other than diagnose and rest, from what I've been reading.

Of course, my new Passier saddle arrived tonight. New saddle, lame horse. It is a very beautiful saddle. I could keep it just to look at. I made my husband come down to my tack room to look at it, but felt his response lacked the enthusiasm such a beautiful saddle deserved. "Very nice," doesn't cut it. :wink:

I did get a short ride on Nala this afternoon. The first trick was to saddle her, bridle her and get the stirrups adjusted to my height. Her owner has some magical trick of timing where she swoops up the saddle, pad and gets the girth tightened in a couple quick motions. Well, she is quite a bit taller than I am. I kept trying to readjust things, and Nala was nodding her head and swinging back and forth, saying hurry up, hurry up. Finally got on and rode up to the field. Then Nala realized it was almost dinner time, turning into dusk, she was alone, and what had happened to the bottom half of my legs? Her owner is quite a bit taller and weighs a bit more than I do. She was wondering why someone had put a jockey back on her...weren't her racetrack days over?

Nala turned back toward home twice, and I pointed her back where we were going, and then had her trot to ease her mind. She didn't really respond to my legs, just my seat. Too short. There was some major roofing going on as we walked through the neighborhood, and some ships were in close on the ocean with strange lights that Nala stopped and stared at. I got off and walked her past everything, onto the dunes because her head was high and she felt tense. 

Once on the beach, Nala felt better. I got on and we long trotted awhile, then cantered. A small part of my mind thought about letting her gallop. But the larger, smarter part of my brain knew that would not be smart. I had limited time, who knows how far we'd go, it was dusk, there were bonfires, I was alone, no one had ridden Nala besides her owner in about a year (when I last rode her) and it would take a little more time to work together as a team with this horse. 

Nala is very smooth and very balanced. I've been riding just Halla too much lately, so I had to remember not to over steer. Because Nala was so balanced, I could shift her off a straight line without meaning to, and I kept over steering. Halla was not built anywhere near symmetrical to begin with and then damaged her knees and also suffered muscle damage from her vitamin E deficiency. Besides being crooked, her range of motion in the front legs is decreased. It almost feels like Halla has to lift herself up across her own centerline to change direction. She is very athletic and compensates. But compensation does not feel anything like a well built, athletic horse that has never been injured and is super fit. 

So long trotting down the beach, Nala adjusted her line of travel six times in a row to just a few inches left, just a few inches right, and back and forth. Finally I put my reins down on her neck and bridged them, and settled my line of sight out farther so she wouldn't think a drunken jockey was riding her. She was trying very hard to accommodate my unintended requests. But now we went straight, and if I wanted to make a circle I used both reins, gradually, together, and that helped us not veer so sharply. 

Her canter is so smooth, and covers so much ground, it just feels like you're barely moving and then you notice that you're going very far and very fast. It must have been only three minutes before we had gone the mile down to the next beach access. If I'd thought her gallop was similar, I would have tried it out despite my good safety logic, but her owner reports it gets a bit rough and sometimes she has to hold mane. 
Once we got back up the dune and past the loud construction, Nala walked home very calmly on a loose rein. I knew I hadn't done much to help exercise Nala compared to her usual workouts, but thought at least this little outlet might have taken some of the mental energy off her.


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## Hondo

Very interesting insight about the horse that may "feel" constrained from protecting itself as it most naturally would and having more fear because of it. Makes sense. Something I will be thinking about.

Winston Churchill was to have once said his most exhilarating moment was to have an assassins bullet miss it's mark. Wonder what his heart rate was.

" _I think being kind to animals is an instinct for me_." Now there's an understatement! 

Not what I and everybody else was hoping to hear about Halla. Hopefully it's just a bad strain that will get better and then ok.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Best wishes for Halla for a speedy and full recovery! I wish we had a beach nearby to ride on.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoping you get some answers for Halla. Always awful when they are hurting and we don't know why.


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## gottatrot

Halla's lameness is not better and she was moving quite stiffly last night so I called the vet first thing this morning and she's fitting us in tomorrow afternoon.
I was really hoping it was just a muscle strain, but it should have started improving by now and it seems slightly worse. I could definitely illicit a pain response when pressing around her left hipbone.


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## Hondo

I just could not push the like button for that post.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

I hope Halla improves soon :sad:

I used to say in years past that I didn't understand why anyone would want to own a Thoroughbred. They are hard to keep weight on, tend to have bad feet, and are higher cost in general to own.
All I can say now after riding TL, a thoroughbred training project, is that anyone who says that about thoroughbreds has never ridden a good one. A ride on an athletic well built TB... there's nothing that quite compares to it.
However, I think every breed and every individual horse has something about them that will make every ride individual, unique, and special.


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## Hondo

Sometimes when I have strained something, the symptoms start small and progressively get worse until at some point they begin to improve. Hoping this is the case with Valhalla.


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## egrogan

Sending good thoughts for your vet visit


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## gottatrot

Just got back from our vet visit. Not good news.

At first, the vet was stumped and thought also the left hind was causing the lameness. She used hoof testers on the hinds and palpated everywhere, but then kept evaluating and having Halla walk back and forth. Finally (so thankful for good vets) she said, "I think I am looking at a foundering horse." As soon as she said it, I realized I'd been totally blind and because Halla does not look like a horse that would founder, I never saw it. But once I heard that, I looked and saw a horse walking like she was foundering.

The vet used the hoof testers on both front hooves, and both were extremely tender. The vet thinks because Halla has such good sole depth in the hinds, she is showing the signs in the front only, and the other hind end lameness is from compensating for the front soreness.

The x-rays showed that she has already rotated in both front hooves, and now the soles are extremely thin. The coffin bones look healthy with no ski tip, indicating this is just happening acutely. 

If this was another horse, I would be optimistic, thinking of rehab and eventual reconnection of the hoof wall. But the vet realizes Halla will pose a huge dilemma, and we will have to take it one day at a time. 

Because of the difficulty keeping weight on her, I've fed her a high sugar and grain diet for several years. Once I learned about how it was healthy for horses to eat low starch/sugar diets, I put Halla on one (a few years ago). But she would not eat enough of either a low starch or high fat diet to keep weight on, and eventually quit eating numerous types of complete feeds. For the past year I've been successfully keeping weight on Halla by feeding about 10 lbs of oats and 1 lb of sweet feed daily. !!! Of course that would kill many horses. I thought Halla was safe because she did not ever gain weight and remains thin. She stops eating hay after a period of time, and simply will not eat enough to keep weight on. I've tried chopped hay, all varieties, alfalfa, etc.

What the vet thinks is that Halla has developed Cushing's, and is one of those rare, thin horses that also shows the first sign of it by foundering. She does not have the long hair coat, has a great topline, no pot belly, etc. We are going to test the ACTH levels next week to see. 

She did not know what to tell me to feed her. She knew of one low starch feed I hadn't tried yet, so I will buy some and see if I can get Halla to eat it. It has all the same ingredients as all the others I've tried, so I'm not too optimistic. Meanwhile, she said to keep feeding the oats because we can't have her starve. I'm to take her off grass, put her in a sand pen with the other horses nearby, and put a hay net out so she can have it 24/7. Our hay is already low NSC. 

I also have to give her Bute for awhile, and this is another thing both the vet and I worry about, with her history of ulcers. So I'm going to give Omeprazole with it.

So I probably have two horses with Cushing's, and this one is probably even worse than Amore's since her hooves are severely affected. It will come down to a quality of life issue, with some big If's. We have to be able to manage the acute phase, she has to be able to keep from starving, and she has to be able to enjoy being with the other horses and not stressed by being separated. If it worries her too much to be separated, I will have to put her with Amore. That will mean we can't have hay out during the day (or Amore will eat it all and founder too), and then I will have to see if she can maintain weight with some kind of diet plan and still stop her hooves from rotating to the point of total destruction. 

I am preparing myself to make hard decisions, but I will do whatever is best for Halla. I suspect we might be done with riding for a long time, possibly forever. My husband cares a lot and said a bit despairingly, "We can't afford 3 horses!" Knowing I now have two horses I can't ride. 

I told him if I had bought a 5 year old horse, that horse could end up unridable for 25 more years, and that is a risk I take with owning horses. So I could be facing a much longer time without a riding horse, and both my horses only have a few years left in life best case scenario. That is the least of my worries, I am still young and can ride other people's horses, and I can have my own riding horse again in the future.


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## Hondo

A thought. When I have Hondo and Dragon in my 1/3 acre yard/pen I often separate them by an electric fence consisting of two simple electrified ropes. If I want to work on one's feet, and the other leaves, then I'm working on an anxious horse. But as long as the other horse is just across the fence, all is well.

The two strands form a long loop about 2-1/2 and 4 feet high. So when I want to open it, I just undo the two hooks at one end and loop them like a rope and hang all at the other end.

If you could make something like that work, then Halla could have hay on demand.

If they are not electric fence trained, might have to do that but once is normally enough.

If the electric fence is not a possibility maybe there would be some other way to keep them separate but together?

Even as much of a food hog as Hondo is, he went off his feed and would just stand around when separated from everyone.

I've read about some horrible cases that were brought back. No ski tip is encouraging.

That food problem is such a dilemma! Is there any flavor she likes? Molasses? Maybe with a small amount watered down and spread out on the hay? Or some other flavor?

Lots of people will be racking their brains for ideas. Hopefully something will work.


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## phantomhorse13

Well shiitake. I am so sorry to read your update on Halla.

I hope you are able to find a solution to the feeding dilemma. I am crossing my fingers and toes that she can tolerate being separated. If not, ss it possible to muzzle Amore, to keep her from being able to eat too much of the hay?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Oh no! Poor Halla!

I've never had a horse with these issues so I'll have to beg off on any advice. Just know I've got my fingers crossed and I'll do some research and see if I can find something you haven't tried yet.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

I am so sorry. I just could not like your post.

However, please remain optimistic. Where there's a will, there's a way! I am at least thankful that this was not something even worse. I'll be praying for you and Halla both, and I am sure its only a matter of time before Halla's happily sprinting on the beach again.

As an after thought, I wonder if cooking or soaking the oats might help with anything? Might be something to look into.


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## gottatrot

Thank you all for the helpful and kind thoughts.

Perhaps @horseluvr2524, your prayers have helped already?

Something possibly crucial just occurred to me tonight. I was for some reason remembering that I had bought some salt blocks online recently, and also that the horses had eaten them unusually quickly (apple flavored). I had put them out free choice as is recommended, and I remember one night in particular I saw the horses had taken in quite a lot of water, which was unusual, and that a lot of the salt bricks were gone. 

This triggered in my mind something about Selenium toxicity. So I looked up the salt bricks I had bought, and sure enough they were Selenium fortified blocks. I did some math. If Halla did ingest one of the salt bricks in a short amount of time, she could have gotten 25 mg. of Selenium. Online I read it's possible for that amount to trigger toxicity, and that could potentially cause a sudden onset of laminitis. She also does get a small amount of Selenium in her usual diet, so I was thinking it wasn't impossible she might have taken in 30 mg. over a day or two.

I am going to let the vet know this info first thing in the morning. I know you can test Selenium levels, so that might help us out quite a lot. It could potentially be an acute, short term issue if this was the case. !!


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## gottatrot

Well, sheesh, now after reading more it sounds like a horse would have to ingest that much Selenium for some time to trigger even chronic toxicity. An acute toxicity would require a huge dose of Selenium and would probably be quickly fatal. So probably that was a red herring.
Plus the hooves are supposed to separate at the coronary band or crack, and the coffin bones don't usually rotate as in classic founder cases. 

Most likely the diagnosis of Cushing's is correct. We will see. Tonight I am feeling hopeful because it's possible if her metabolism is affected by the Cushing's, she might actually gain weight better if I get her on the Pergolide. I was reading that some Cushing's horses metabolize protein faster and this leads to weight loss. 

I've not seen the classic signs of Cushing's. But yet when I think about it, Halla does have some things that are abnormal and could be related to Cushing's. She has sweated excessively for years, and tends to develop a crest when she does gain a little weight. I've never seen her obviously in heat, and all of those things could relate to Cushing's.


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## egrogan

Just catching up. Really sorry to hear about what the vet found. I don't have any suggestions as I haven't dealt with this (yet... given my likely Cushings lady). Sending all my good thoughts your way.


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## horseluvr2524

I was reading through this website last night and thought I would share. It is mostly about IR horses, but talks about laminitis too, feeding to prevent it, etc. They do talk about their product here and there, but most of it is really good information. I found it interesting because it confirms a lot of my feed plan ideas (like slow fed bermuda, for example).

http://www.equinemedsurg.com/articles/insulin-resistance/diet-for-the-insulin-resistant-horse/

I think I found it when I was reading up on rice bran last night. After finding out some things, I got very annoyed and decided that I am never going to allow anyone to push feed on me ever again. Beet pulp is far cheaper, and apparently, much better for horses!



> NO RICE BRAN –three big reasons
> According to a USDA study by Dr. Marshal in his 1994 Rice Science Study (465 page report), it is approximately 16% fat. This is going to promote fat on your horse, add weight, and cause problems.
> Rice bran is loaded with starch. Dr. Marshal has it at 16% and Equi-Analytical Labs at almost a 20% average. This is 5 to 7 times more than timothy/orchard hay or beet pulp. Rice bran has an NSC level of about 25 which is extremely high.
> Rice bran’s NSC is very close to that of Wheat bran (30). Both need to be strongly avoided in these horses.


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## gottatrot

Thank you for that info, @horseluvr2524.
Agree that all the "fad" things we hear about are often not worth the hype.

I hope to get to that point where I can think about long term management. My friend gives that Heiro to her chronic laminitis horse. I've read the ingredients and it seems good, but still an herbal supplement which at this point is like spitting in the rain (is that the right phrase)? I had a patient once and he was breathing like a freight train and we were asking for his consent to put him on a ventilator to save his life. He asked me if colloidal silver or oil of oregano would help. When you're getting ready to do CPR, it's a little late for that. That's kind of the situation I'm in right now, I believe, time for major intervention. 

The good news is that Halla was not upset being in the small sand run when I checked on her this morning. Amore and Nala were staying close by on the other side of the fence. I believe they know she is in bad shape. Halla was visibly sore just standing in the soft sand. It looked like she might have taken one bite out of her hay net. I tried hand feeding her some but she just turned her head away. 

Something that is amazing me is how quickly the hoof can deteriorate. I've talked about trimming so much and worked hard to keep that tight connection with the hoof capsule. I look at my hooves every single day. I can swear to you that two weeks ago my hoof wall felt smooth and tight. Now I see ridges on the outside. I thought those had to grow down from the coronary band?

The vet looking at my hooves was saying how she didn't like the angles and I told her I trim them myself. I would have been proud to say that several weeks ago, and showed how Halla walked up the gravel hill without a bad step. I was confident then that my horse had good hooves. 
Now they look terrible. I don't have the xrays yet, but this is close to what I saw: I saw that shadow in the pictures, where the connection used to be.








Her best front, the one that has always has less flare and a deeper sole is the one that has rotated the most. She is not walking on her heels now, but behind the heel, trying to keep all the weight off the toes. 
These hooves I've thought of as healthy, functional short hooves now look scary like they don't have enough heel or sole, and the angles have changed. I guess because the weight is now going down the coffin bone is now farther back, and so she has to put her weight even farther back to avoid the pain. This is what they looked like healthy. Angles very similar to the hoof in the xray, but now very unhealthy.








I know I couldn't have prevented this by trimming. But I wish I had a lot more hoof capsule and sole to protect the hoof.


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## horseluvr2524

Quite honestly I don't think your trimming had anything to do with this. Its been shown to me over and over again that leaving a horse tall heeled or some of the other traditional shoeing practices detrimentally ruins a horse over time.

You could try booting her, like some of the easyboot rehab types. Not sure if that will help any.
I think @walkinthewalk has some experience with this?

I posted the link not for the Heiro supplement but for all of the information on feeds the website has.

Something else crossed my mind, I'm not sure if it would help or be detrimental or whatnot as I haven't researched into it, but Calf Manna has been a favored weight gain feed for decades. You might've tried that in the past, but I figured I would suggest it, if she won't eat anything else.

Can she have alfalfa? Maybe it would be more palatable?


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## walkinthewalk

I read the Equimed web site from time-to-time to see if their method of sales approach has changed and it hasn't, lollol

1. Heiro works on some metabolic horses, not all of them. I think the milder cases do ok on it. 

Joker would be dead by now. The only thing that brought his numbers down and let's him lead a half way normal life, without a muzzle, is a prescription herbal mix from Dr. Xie in Ocala, FL. "Hot Hoof I".

2. What that web site does NOT say about rice bran is that it is *healthy fat.* and provides the horse with *cool energy* without hyping it up like grains and molasses do. We all need fat, but the right kind of fat.

Joker gets one to 1-1/2 cups of pelleted equine rice bran every day and he's been fine with that since I put him back on it three years ago. 

Both horses love the flavor so it gets mixed with their needed supplements in Timothy pellets and water.

3. Hooves. My hair has really turned gray, thanks to Joker's hooves but at least it's still there, lollol

I had Joker in boots for daily turnout since his major founder in May, 2012. They would come off at night, when he came in the barn.

I can barely get 8 hooves picked out, much less trim, so I gave up trimming 4-1/2 years ago. I had Joker's hooves where they needed to be.

The farrier brothers came on board and were doing an equally terrific job but, littlebylittlevylittle they got slipshod in their trimming and Joker's hooves went south --- really south ---- coffin bones and all:neutral:

Joker has been in full rocker aluminum shoes since last November. He goes to the vet facility every five weeks and is trimmed by the house vet's farrier. The vet tells the farrier precisely how to trim the hooves and by golly that had better be how they get trimmed or there is heck to pay. After the shoes have been reset, the vet takes another x-Ray. I write $185 check (re-set plus X-rays) and I get to bring Joker home, happy as a lark because his wiggies feel good:gallop:.

It's an understatement to say Joker has improved 110%. He has miraculously de-rotated to a point the vet and farrier both commented Joker has "far exceeded their expectations".

He's a Walking Horse and can once again dog walk (at liberty) with the best of them. He now hand gallops and gallops at liberty for the first time in several years. He does that a lot because he can, not because he needs to. He's stiff and short strides on the back but he also lives with a fractured sacrum & plenty of arthritis build up.

*I said all that to say:*

Rice bran is safe healthy fat, just feed in moderation; half a cup each feeding is sufficient.

*@Gottatrot;*. Based on the improvement I have seen in Joker with these aluminum rocker shoes, I would offer that you take your horse to the nearest clinic where the vet is a leg/hoof specialist, get X-rays, have your horse shod on the fronts, on the spot. Be prepared to have resets done every five weeks.

It's not cheap, nothing that works is going to be cheap, regardless of keeping the horse barefoot or in shoes. Frequency of trims and possibly frequent x-Rays really add up.

I don't do too bad with retirement social security. I'm here to say it's a good thing DH is double hyperactive Type A and stills works because every penny of my retirement goes to my two remaining horses. And at that, DH still does some subsidizing although I hide my head in the sand as to exactly how much:icon_rolleyes:.


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## Hondo

Such a problem. First to keep her as comfortable as possible and to prevent penetration. Then to implement the best recovery plan. And then to decide what actually caused it and correct that area.

I was reading on human cushings that is cause by a tumor. Just too many things for a non-professional to consider for certain.

Sounds like walkinthewalk has walked the walk!

This has opened my eyes to an entire new area associated with horse ownership that I had not really considered before.


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## horseluvr2524

@walkinthewalk

I apologize for the confusion over rice bran. I did not mean to hijack gottatrot's journal. I mentioned a bit about rice bran because of my frustration with my current in a few days soon to be old BO who pressured me into feeding it when my horse did not need it.

Hopefully it won't take too long before Halla starts improving! Prayers still going your way @gottatrot


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## walkinthewalk

@horseluvr2524, ;. Think nothing of it, lollol

It was good to being poor old rice bran out of lockup, lollol. Folks think because it's high in fat, it's bad to feed to metabolic horses. That isn't always the case, both of mine tolerated a little bit very well. 

Some folks can also feed a little alfalfa to their metabolic horse. Duke tolerated some alfalfa, Joker isn't allowed to even hear the word, lol

It's always good to know the whole story, whenever possible


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## gottatrot

@walkinthewalk, 
Can you tell me how long it seemed Joker was in severe pain at the beginning? 
I've read and studied so much about laminitis over the years, without having problems with my own horses, just helping others. I thought I understood a lot. But now I find myself confused and needing a lot more information.

Some things I've read online are that acute laminitis is the first 48 hours or so, and then the changes happen such as rotation. We were past that by the time I realized that is what the issue was. It was a slow, days long onset that progressively worsened each day. 

But something else I've read is that once rotation happens, you're in the chronic laminitis phase. But Halla's pain seems to be increasing each day. When the vet saw her Friday she was walking slowly and obviously lame, but without much asking. This morning she was very reluctant to move. I assume this means the damage is continuing for some reason. 

One thing I know we are doing wrong is walking her up the sand hill to turnout. However, I have decided that if these are her last days, I want her to be in the sand pen next to her friends and not have to stay down in her night pen with just Amore there, which she would hate. I've been around some other horses with laminitis, but this is the most sudden and severe I've seen. 
So I may be wrong but I am trying to balance her happiness if there is truly nothing I can do, with saving her feet for the future. 

I just don't know why and how it would hit a horse that was sound on gravel two weeks ago this hard and fast. It makes me think there is a systemic problem, such as Cushing's, but maybe even something in the gut we don't know about. 

About the rice bran, I have seen it fed to horses that need low NSC, when the levels in the rice bran were considered as part of their whole diet. If everything else is low and you are feeding small amounts, you can still be well within a safe range for Cushing's or IR horses if the rest of their diet is controlled. 

I used to feed it to Halla in larger amounts because I wasn't worried about her NSC (a couple years ago) and gave her 2 lbs daily. It really helped keep her weight up. Then she stopped eating rice bran, and boycotted all the types I gave her (Empower Boost, Purina Amplify, and just plain rice bran). 

Recently on the forum I was reading how a member feeds large amounts to horses in Indonesia, but I advised her to cut back a little because she was feeding up to 4 kg per horse, which is over 8 lbs. Since rice bran is high in phosphorus, there is no possible way to balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio in those amounts. But it could be fed at up to 4 lbs fairly safely if necessary, and IF the horses did not have problems with the high NSC levels that would cause. 

@horseluvr2524, thank you for any advice, I hope I didn't sound snappy at all but my stress levels right now are really high with all this. Our alfalfa around here is low NSC and I've tried numerous times to feed it to Halla in hay, pellets, chopped hay, but she doesn't like the taste. The vet says she hasn't met another horse yet that didn't like alfalfa. I've wanted to feed it to her because I've wanted the calcium as a buffer for her gut, being prone to ulcers. Several times I've had her eat it for a couple days, then I've gone and bought a couple bales. Then I have to find someone at the barn who will take the rest of the bales. Once all the horses were on diets and they were feeding it to the goats! Which was probably bad for them too, they get fat.

Every time Amore is over there watching me coax Halla with alfalfa saying, "Give it to me, I'll eat it! I'm fine with alfalfa!" 
Not happening, chubby.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I just don't know why and how it would hit a horse that was sound on gravel two weeks ago this hard and fast. It makes me think there is a systemic problem, such as Cushing's, but maybe even something in the gut we don't know about.


As an equine vet friend of mine says, "horses were put here to find insane ways to die."

A lady who was boarding with my SIL lost her haffie mare to a sudden, unexplained laminitic crisis a couple years ago. While the mare was not thin, she was not obese either and was ridden regularly. Nothing had changed in her diet or environment. One day, she didn't clean up all her hay from the night before and was slow going out. By that evening, she was moving a bit stiffly. When my SIL contacted her owner, she thought perhaps the mare was stiff from a slightly longer than normal ride the day before. The next morning, she was unwilling move, and the vet was called. The owner did every test and treatment the vet suggested. Rads of her front feet showed a hair of separation. Nothing in the bloodwork came back out of the ordinary. The poor mare was put down the next morning because she was unable to stand and you could see where the tip of P3 was about to come through the sole. We still don't know why any of that happened.

I agree something systemic happened/is happening with Halla.. but _what_ is anybody's guess. I certainly don't think your trimming or management had anything to do with it.

If she still seems painful and you worry about ongoing damage, can you ice her feet?

What a nightmare. :sad: I hope Halla and you find some comfort asap.


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## Wallaby

On the topic of boots/padding, when my old lady goat foundered, she got a lot of relief when I duct-taped cut-to-fit pieces of flip-flops to her hooves. It wasn't pretty, but the pads stuck for long enough to give her some relief.
I also stuck her hooves into bags filled with ice twice a day [no more that 10 minutes at a time, usually the bags split open at some point and I used that as a gauge for being "done." haha] which, in addition to the flip-flop pads, made a world of difference for her. I wrapped a strip of duct-tape around the bags at fetlock-height.

Not sure if a gallon zip-lock would be strong enough for a horse, but it might be if she isn't moving much.

Hazel was already badly foundered by the time I caught it, but doing those^ things got her out of the acute phase with some comfort.


Sending love and hugs to you guys!! It's incredibly hard to see a dear friend like Halla go downhill so unexpectedly and quickly. My thoughts are with you guys.


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## Wallaby

On the feed front, does she like the flavor of any herbs or spices?

Fabio can be pretty picky, but he loves the flavor of rose hips so I include that in his daily mix to cover the bitter taste of his muscle supplements. Fenugreek is another one that I've heard can work well. 

Maybe, if she likes a flavor like that, it could be sprinkled over hay and maybe tempt her into trying it? 

Does she like salt? If so, could loose salt be sprinkled on the hay?


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## walkinthewalk

@gottatrot, when Joker foundered so bad in 2012, the vet had been here less than ten days before. He took the hoof testers to both Joker's front hooves and Joker passed with flying colors.

Horses are a lot more stoic than we sometimes give them credit for. They are also prey animals so it isn't in their best interest to show discomfort or pain if they can avoid it.

Measuring from the dorsal wall, Joker rotated 8-9 degrees on the LF and 5 degrees on the RF.

I have an intercom at the barn, I could hear him get up and down at night and eat hay. Many times he would be flat out, sometimes moaning when I got to the barn. I would feed Rusty, brush him, turn him out, then make Joker get up.

It was late Speing/early Summer so I could cold hose him but getting him out of his stall was difficult. I ended up buying ice hoof boots from Ice Horse.

https://www.jefferspet.com/products...boot-1sz-blk?gclid=COqq_t7m6NECFQm4wAodQdENrA

$99 is the going price. I had found them at Valley Vet last year for $49/ea so I bought two more ---- didn't need them but I bought them

It's a lot easier to ice his hooves in the stall instead of forcing him to walk when he wasn't ready to walk.

I ended up opening the back end of the barn and letting him come and go when he was ready to move; it was easier on him. 

I almost PTS'd him twice but the vet's wouldn't let me. They felt like he could pull thru.

Joker never went off his feed, not even when he was dealing with ulcers. I put him on 30 days of Omeprazole twice in a year's time and he's been fine ever since.

If your horse is not wanting to eat, every horse is different so it could be her hooves but something else internal could be going on. It could be she is dealing with something like EPM, Lymes, PSSM, it's just really hard to say.

There was a lady on this forum a few years back whose horse foundered worse than Joker. It was insulin resistant and I'm pretty sure the added disease was EPM. The horse lost a ton of weight, and was down for some time. She pulled him thru but I lost touch with her, so I don't know if he survived long term.

Seeing how happy Joker is in these aluminum rocker shoes, I wish to Hades I would have done this a long time ago. 

He stopped shifting weight from leg-to-to leg the very night he got those shoes. He quickly figured out what "rocker" meant and I would watch him tip his toe (slightly raising his heel) to a comfortable position. 

Even though Joker's LF was rotated the worse, as you say with Halla, he eventually started to favor the RF. the good side eventually starts to break down from supporting the bad side for so long.

It is gut wrenching, at the least, to watch, and recovery is expensive.

If you haven't had Halla recently tested for EPM, etc. I would have her tested. If your vet gives you spit, do you have the option of another facility?

If she has an outside space, I would leave her down in her night area so she doesn't have to struggle up and down the hill --- down hill bothers Joker more when he's not feeling good.

If her hoof walls are healthy, I would see about getting a set of rockers on her and perhaps have them seal the sole shut with whatever it is they use. I watched the farrier do that "packing" to a QH that was foundered. He said Joker didn't need the packing because I clean his hooves 2X/day.

There is also a glue-on method but your vet and farrier have to work hand-in-hand, taking X-rays. Joker had at least four sets of x-rays on his first visit. The vet and farrier worked on him for three hours. 

Trimming a little, taking X-rays, repeating the process until the vet was satisfied with how Joker's hooves sat barefoot, then the front shoes got nailed on (he has healthy thick hoof wall). 

The back hooves were left barefoot and the vet told the farrier what angle he wanted them at. That angle gets measured at every trim. Joker has a fractured sacrum with a lot of arthritis, so that has to be co side red in the formula.

Joker is a happy-go-lucky horse by nature; always trying to see the bright side and he is "a tough fighter" in the vet's words. He is so bubbly with these shoes that he looks for excuses to gallop. He has the yard and one pasture, about 4-1/2 acres. Sometimes he waits for DH to get home from work to race him up to the house. It isn't a real race, as I have threatened DH within in an inch of his life if he does anything more than idle up the drive, but Joker is happy he can do that.

I keep saying the rehab can be expensive, especially if there does happen to be an underlying issue. The best you can do for Halla, is try your best with the money you have. If she doesn't show any improvement over a period of time and money is running out, then it's time to think about sending her on to her ancestors.

In the beginning, Joker foundered in May, 2012. He was still very lame in that November but he was also dealing with literal torn ligaments when an AFAcertified farrier took too much heel in one strike. My vet was so livid, his neck turned purple, all the way to his forehead. I was afraid to speak but I asked about PTSng Joker. The vet said to give him another month, that was November 2012 and Joker is still here. 

The ancillary expense for his legs was tremendous. Labor intensive between his legs and hooves had me almost crawling on my hands and knees out of his stall when I was done caring for them ---- twice daily for 11 months. I don't know what I would have done without my own chiropractor.

That was a long answer to your question but you have a serious issue and you might as well get my nickel's worth of personal experience, lollol

Regarding the rice bran: equine rice bran should say "calcium fortified" on the bag. I called EquiJewel to see how much I could feed my elder Arab who was losing weight. They told me four pounds daily, max. 

I hope this helps. I feel like there's a chance for recovery, if your checkbook can afford it and you have the time morning and night to do whatever the vet says to do.

If your current vet isn't enthused. Get a second opinion from someone whose specialty is legs and hooves. I am so thankful the house vet at the facility is a leg/hoof specialist and it doesn't hurt that he has always had a soft spot for Joker

I have written a book. Please forgive any mistakes. I'm too tired to proof it:smile:


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## gottatrot

Thank you all for the great tips and advice. I appreciate very much hearing the stories and suggestions. It was bringing tears to my eyes tonight, thinking of how helpful you all are.

I have a soaker boot so will start doing some icing with that. I haven't been icing because the vet said it was probably too late for ice to help, and some research I'd read supported that. But it can only help and not hurt, so why not do it? 

My vet seems very supportive, so I will ask her to test for EPM when she draws for Cushing's. Something that is bothering me is that the hooves have not felt warm at all, and no bounding pulses. 

Tonight when I went to the barn, Halla was very bright eyed and interested in life. That was the most hopeful I've been, as she was moving around the stall a lot, licking her salt block (no selenium in this one), eating hay, going outside for water, and then back to her grain. She lifted each hoof for me. I wondered if it was possible that the pain had peaked and was now coming down, since this was before her Bute dose. 

I have been drastically cutting the oats, thinking a short term calorie shortage may be better than keeping that sugar/starch going into her body. Tonight I gave 4 lbs, and I gave her 1 lb of the Haystack feed the vet recommended (1/2 lb yesterday, it's low sugar/starch) and 1/2 lb of beet pulp. She ate both of those right away, so that was encouraging since she has not been interested in beet pulp before. I soaked it with very little water so it was dryer, so that might have helped. I hope to work her up to more pounds of each of those feeds. 

The vet recommended waiting a little while for the changes in the hoof and more xrays before thinking about shoeing. But she says we can use xrays to guide our trim and if a shoe is necessary, to decide on that strategy. She was not talking about PTS, but seeing my mare in so much pain has had me thinking about it until tonight.

Tonight I was looking at the front hooves, and even though I know there is not a lot of sole under the coffin bone tip right now due to the rotation, those soles are thick compared to other horses I see walking around. I couldn't induce soreness by pressing on them, or get them to flex, and there is depth even on the worse one in the collateral groove at the apex of the frog. The soles look flatter now than they have before, but are not bulging or even as flat as some horses I've seen. All of this makes me think about rehab.

Tonight I thought that I could order some Soft Ride boots right away, and a grazing muzzle. If the soreness improves, after her hooves stabilize and grow some I can trim to realign the capsule with the vet's help with xrays, and hope the boots and pain medications will keep her comfortable in the meantime. Those are my hopeful thoughts, we will see.


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## egrogan

Really glad for the cautiously optimistic update. It's great that her attitude is positive and she's interested in eating and moving as she can. Good thoughts continue to come your way.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

So good to hear Halla is doing even a tad better! Awesome that she is showing interest in other feeds. Maybe she just doesn't like mushy food?

You never sounded snappy at all gottatrot. And I am sorry if I overwhelmed you with unhelpful advice and silly questions. You know a LOT more about this than I do, and I was just throwing ideas out there trying to be helpful but also asking out of curiosity (yeah... that thing that killed the cat lol). I should have been more sensitive to your situation, so I apologize for that.


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## Hondo

I do not wish to burden you with things you know about or that may not be helpful, but Halla is on my mind and if I did not mention something that would have been helpful, I'd feel very bad.

Reading about acidosis and how that reduces the digestion of regular forage. This made me wonder if Halla could detect when certain things were not digesting properly and which in turn caused her to reject further feeding of that food. Like I said, "wondering".

It turns out there is an anti-acid for horses that is in a capsule designed to make it to the hind gut before dissolving. Research that I've read indicates this is successful in reducing hind gut acidity.

Reducing Hindgut Acidosis | TheHorse.com

https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/e...m_campaign=nb_shopping_buckets&utm_term=14821

Like I said, you likely know much more about all this, but had not seen it mentioned.


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## walkinthewalk

Hondo said:


> I do not wish to burden you with things you know about or that may not be helpful, but Halla is on my mind and if I did not mention something that would have been helpful, I'd feel very bad.
> 
> Reading about acidosis and how that reduces the digestion of regular forage. This made me wonder if Halla could detect when certain things were not digesting properly and which in turn caused her to reject further feeding of that food. Like I said, "wondering".
> 
> It turns out there is an anti-acid for horses that is in a capsule designed to make it to the hind gut before dissolving. Research that I've read indicates this is successful in reducing hind gut acidity.
> 
> Like I said, you likely know much more about all this, but had not seen it mentioned.


Hind gut acidosis is a possibility.

although my horse with EMS was also diagnosed with that after he colicked three successive times and had never colicked in his life, he did not go off his feed but I had to CHANGE his feed and start him out with small feelings gradually ramping him up to his normal amount.

EquiShur is a legitimate product from KER. But to clarify, it does not come in capsule form. I know it comes in powder and, when my vet had me try it on Duke, it was in a paste form.

It did not work on Duke. He colicked six more times before I got the colic to stop with "Succeed". 

No surprise "Succeed" is double the cost of EquiShur but I didn't care; it bought Duke 2-1/2 more years until he had one more doozy of a colic that took him when he was 27.

The hind gut issues are something I didn't think about (as far as not eating) and something I would ask the vet about. The simple test requires a stool sample and it is examined for blood. 

I think There is another, more accurate more costly test that has to be performed at an equine university hospital.

At any rate, certainly something to put on your "20 Questions" list for your vet:grin:


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## Hondo

Found this:" _Testing the pH of your horse's manure with pH strips is an easy way to diagnose hindgut acidosis._ "

Hindgut acidosis in horses | Hygain Horse Feed

And this-same link:" _Such bacteria are critical to the digestion (release of energy yielding VFAs) and health of the horse and are intolerant of acidic environments. As the pH drops and the hindgut becomes more acidic, the fibre-fermenting bacteria are less efficient and begin to die-off (pH<6), releasing endotoxins. Endotoxins are toxins that are part of the cell wall of bacteria and are released when bacteria die as the cell wall breaks apart.

The increased acidity in the hindgut damages the mucosa (gastric wall) which absorbs the endotoxins released, letting them enter the general circulation. Endotoxins initiate a series of inflammatory responses and can trigger laminitis, amongst other disorders._"

I believe this is the mechanism through which high NSC grasses at certain times causes laminitis.


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## Wallaby

I was also thinking of Halla today!

I was doing a bit of research for Fabio, and I came across a supplement called Coenzyme Q10 [ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GWK1HN6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A8MA32QEVO3GI ]. The direct copy and paste of what I read is:



> Coenzyme Q10 has also been shown to be one of the best antioxidants for equine laminitis, possibly due to its ability
> to inhibit the arachidonic acid pathway and subsequent
> formation of inflammatory prostaglandins.90 Anecdotal
> reports indicate pain decreases rapidly when CoQ10 is
> administered without concurrent non-steroidal anti-in-
> flammatory drugs. The therapeutic dose is 300-600 mg
> daily for two weeks, followed by a slow decrease to a
> maintenance dose of 100 mg daily


It might help to reduce Halla's pain without further compromising her with bute. The person who posted this comment [on the FB PSSM forum] hadn't, I think, used it on a horse with laminitis [it came up in the context of horses with mitochondrial myopathies] but had heard of its use. A Google search for "coenzyme Q10 laminitis" brings up a lot of stuff, mostly wordy and/or earthy documents...but at least there's some documentation! 


It may be something to try, if you can.

*hugs*


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, @walkinthewalk, @Wallaby:

Thanks very much for the information on hindgut acidosis and COQ10. 

We drew blood tests today, so that will be interesting to get results and hopefully some more answers. I quizzed the vet on a lot of things today. For one thing, if tests are all negative, what does that mean? We did not test for IR, so I asked if nothing else shows up what does that mean? Is she insulin resistant somehow while being a hard keeper?

The vet said she doesn't think so. Yet if nothing else shows up, we have to blame the oats. But these posts about hind gut acidosis makes me think along other lines, that feeding too many oats would not only put a horse at risk if they had Cushing's or insulin resistance, but also could put a horse at risk simply from hind gut acidosis. As I was reminded by the helpful information above, the acidotic state makes the gut membrane more permeable and means toxins are more likely to enter the bloodstream. Which toxins have been implicated in laminitis.

When Halla had ulcers before, I treated the ulcers and also hind gut acidosis. I gave her probiotics, prebiotics (in LMF 911), and also gave her Equishure for about 6 months. 
LMF Digest 911®
At that time I was not feeding oats. I believe she is prone to an acidotic state, so I need to get her back on a program. Things might be worse now, with the oats. The Succeed sounds great and I may try that this time. Her ulcers did seem to heal up in the past, after the Omeprazole, LMF and Equishure.

I just want to say that I am mortified that I have been believing some quite wrong information that has been circulating about feeding oats. Oats must be fed with _extreme_ caution. I have learned that lesson now. To explain, I once believed I would never feed oats, and that they were a grain and therefore a risky thing to feed. Over time, my thinking came around due to many articles I read about how oats are digested more easily than other grains, that they actually are mainly digested in the hind gut, and that hard keepers needing higher energy must have something to give their muscles the glycogen stores necessary for hard exercise.
Here is one of the articles I've read that promotes feeding oats:
For The Health Of Horses Feed Oats

Yes, I have a highly muscled horse in hard work with the build of a racehorse. But also, racehorses do have a huge problem with ulcers and hind gut acidosis. Something else I did not take into consideration is that I have a horse that does not eat enough hay or grass, and this meant her oats made up a high percentage of her diet. If a horse is eating 28 lbs of hay and 7 lbs of oats, that is a much smaller percentage of the diet than a horse that is eating 10-12 lbs of hay and 10 lbs of oats, or about 50% of the diet. Well, I got there in desperation, trying to find something my horse would eat.

Halla didn't eat the beet pulp last night, so I am not sure if I will get her to eat that or not. She often will try something for a night or two and then decide she doesn't like it. I will experiment with flavors, but the ones I've tried she disliked. I've read some horses like banana, licorice, kool aid powders, but she doesn't care for those "artificial" type flavors. 

Overall, the vet said that she feels Halla may be stabilizing. She says her prognosis is "guarded," because in her experience the sudden, severe laminitis cases often progress hard and fast and end up with the horses not making it. Versus the overweight types that get a little too much grass and have a slow exacerbation of their underlying problem. The vet is very blunt with me and doesn't tell me things just because I want to hear it. I like that.
She did say that if we can get Halla over the crisis, she has a good chance of complete rehabilitation. Strangely, the horses with the lingering issues recover less well than those that have a sudden, severe case, as long as they make it through. 

I talked to her about buying the Soft Ride boots, and she said they are good, but she also was ambivalent because she says we have the best footing already, which is deep, soft sand. She said this sand is the best for horses finding the position of comfort. So I am not sure if I should buy the boots or not.

Thinking ahead, I understand Halla may not be able to be on grass for a long time, if ever. But I feel bad watching her look so sadly at Nala and Amore roaming over the pasture. I am wondering if her hooves stop hurting and when she is ready for walking ad lib, if I could get her some kind of muzzle that allowed no grazing at all. Then I could put her out for a period of time during the day. That is what she loves, dictating her friends' lives and bossing them around. 
On a happier note, I noticed she was very pleased that she had a hay net while the other horses in the fields next to her run did not. Amore and Buddy longingly watched her eating the hay, and Halla enjoyed making faces at them and feeling superior about how she was able to control this food and they couldn't have any.


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## gottatrot

One more thing:
I asked the vet if Halla did have Cushing's, if controlling it might help her gain weight better. As I said, she doesn't try to tell me what I want to hear. She said she doesn't think so, because the weight loss related to Cushing's is related to being in a catabolic state. She says the weight loss seen is muscle wasting, and pointed out that Halla has always been a heavily muscled horse even though difficult to keep weight on. So that problem might always be something I have to deal with. 
But on a brighter note, Halla has not yet lost visible weight with all this going on, probably because her activity level is very reduced.


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## Hondo

That was a nice happy note you ended on.

I ordered some test strips today for urine and saliva. Don't know if they'll work on horse feces but the range is 5.5-8 with color matches every 0.2. 15 feet for about $10. I will be testing yes you bet! So I'm wondering since Amore had acidosis if you used test strips to monitor her?

It is very good news that Halla seems to have perked up but I have to admit I'm worried about her perking up too much with her coffin pointed at her now thin sole.

I'm just thinking if she is below 6 pH at least the anti-acid could stop the flow of junk into her blood stream. Or at least start the walls of her hind gut healing.

I had read that article you posted in the past. I had a long PM exchange with "its miles" about the course he took on equine nutrition. And he gave me a link to an article that was 180 from the one you posted.

It just seems that there is so much verified info on everything equine that are 180 from one another that it's hard to know sometimes what to do short of earning your own PHD in what your concerns are.

It sound like Halla has a really good vet. I like the sand idea. If her toes are sticking down in the sand it'd be harder for a penetration to occur.

A tentative big sigh.........with fingers crossed.

Thinking about your video, whatever the future brings, Halla has had a life incomparably better than if you had not found her.


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## walkinthewalk

FWIW, while it isn't that common, it is not uncommon for a hard keeper to develop insulin resistance.

I heave a huge sigh for you. You are tearing your hair out, and researching u til your eyeballs look like road maps to Alaska. And you're probably crying a lot.

That's what I did, back in 2007, when Duke was diagnosed with Equine Metabolic Syndrome by my vet-at-that-time, who was a large and small animal vet.

All he said was to watch Duke's diet. I asked in what regard would I have to change it. He shrugged his shoulders and repeated to just watch Duke's diet.

I spent that entire Spring and summer in front of the computer, learning was a difficult process as a whole lot less was known in 2007 than today.

That is why I give so much detail of my own experiences. We need to read credible research articles but it also helps to know what works and doesn't work or what works for THIS horse but might not work for THAT horse.

Try not to lose too much sleep at least until the blood results come back.

Keep us posted, please


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## walkinthewalk

How about one more product for hind gut ulcers, lollol

I saw this on another forum. If you cursor down and read the product description, if claims to treat hind gut ulcers. 

https://horseprerace.com/misoprostol-powder-30-dose-jar/

Yesterday was the first I've read about it, so don't jump on the bandwagon without doing some research and speaking with your vet. I feel like it is certainly something worth investigating

YAY!!!!!! More reading! Just want you need!


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## horseluvr2524

Hopefully only more good news in the future. Still praying for both you and Halla.


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## gottatrot

Still waiting on bloodwork to come back. Halla was again walking slightly better today. The pain seems to improve a tiny bit each day.

Meanwhile, I found a great video of a horse online...how could this guy ever sell Walter?
It is long but amazing, the best sales video I have ever seen. You could have no qualms about buying this horse.


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## Hondo

Holy Cow! Gonna cost me but I did watch it all. That is a horseman and a trained horse. Agreed, how could he be sold? Bet he brought a pretty penny.

I read somewhere that Missouri Foxtrotters are born loving people. Dragon is 1/2 Missouri Foxtrotter. I know both his mom and dad. He will follow me around incessantly. Likes to be petted and fooled with as much as eating.

He is narrow base and cow hocked on the hind and pigeon toed on the front, a wee bit parrot mouthed but on personality he's a +++...

I don't know how big of a negative his feet conformation is but I've ponied him over some really really technical trail and he LOOKS where to put his feet and does fine. That is most important to me. One trail is so technical in one section that I lead Hondo and just let Dragon follow on his own.

I'm just not sure that my personality is such that I could ever spend the time training to achieve what was done with Walter. But who knows? I never imagined that just caring for a horse would mean what it has become to me.


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## Hondo

Read on this site that Walter went for a cool $50K. The guy's a professional......

https://www.horsenation.com/2017/01...s-video-may-blow-your-mind-also-make-you-lol/


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

That is one inspiring horse. Looked up how much Walter sold for.... $50,000.

Hondo, you beat me to it!


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## Hondo

Sorry, but I simply have to post the response I got from a friend whom I sent Walter's video. Especially for the PS at the end.

As a preface: Eric is a good friend. He is a true adventurer and explorer, mostly with dirt bikes and mountain bikes but recently did a long excursion of Kayaking in Alaska. He has had dogs and likes dogs. He adores Meka, my great Great Pyrenees. Neither of us has seen Eric for about two years.

Eric knows little about horses other than his good friend Harold has inexplicably turned his world upside down for a horse he calls Hondo.

So with that, here is his response to the video:

Wow, that was very interesting. He's certainly one of those guys that "gets it" ! There's a clear bond between him and Walter and I'm curious how well Walter would respond to an experienced stranger ? I'm guessing once a bond is formed it would be good. I know little about horses but the checklist he went through seems like it would extremely useful as far as what to pay attention to and what to train for.
Thanks for sending.
PS - I spit water through my nose when he said: "they are like a 4 yr old child in a 1000lb body that cant talk" 
See ya, Eric


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## gottatrot

Interesting about the Missouri Foxtrotter personality. I was noticing how Walter was mellow, curious, friendly. I'm glad the horse was sold for a good price (a bit steep for me!!) because I think he deserves a home where he will be appreciated. There are other videos on Youtube of the trainer working with other horses. He said something in one video like, "I've found that if you ask a horse nicely, he'll do about anything for you." Great quote, something I believe in. I noticed how the trainer was everything horses enjoy being around: quiet, calm, predictable, fair, consistent. I also enjoyed the part that was "training for Isis," that cracked me up, I've never seen anyone using a horse as a mobile barrier. And he said something like, "I have a lot of time on my hands, so I trained the horse to do..." Isn't that the problem most of us face...not enough time? I remember thinking years ago that John Lyons' showcase horses were good citizens not because he had any great secrets, but because he spent so much time working with them.

I've been doing a whole lot of research and making some decisions. The vet said today it might take another couple days for the final test to come back for Halla (Cushing's test).

What I've decided is not exactly what my vet would recommend. But we've been trying some things that haven't been working out great. First, there is no way I can immobilize my horse. I think the most stressful choice is the stall with runout, this disrupts the routine and Halla is very much a horse that needs things to be "just so." We tried a small sand pen with the horses cooped up in the small field next to it (Nala and Amore), but that didn't work because Nala couldn't be kept in the small field with her huge TB energy level and we also couldn't just put Amore in there because that blocked off the shelter and Nala did not have access. So Amore and Nala have been allowed into the big pasture, and this means Halla has been pacing around in her small pen.

So yesterday we tried putting Halla with the chronic laminitis horse (who is on her best day more tenderfooted than Halla is now) in a slightly bigger sand corral. They each had a hay net, and the barn owner left them happily eating at 9. At 11, the laminitis horse's owner came and Halla was chasing the poor lame horse around the corral and guarding both hay nets.

We have another horse coming in, so we have to figure out how to have 4 horses in an area with 2 shelters that fit 2 horses each. If Halla is in the small, sand pen this means 3 horses try to go in one shelter while she takes the other. The new horse is a thin TB needing to gain weight. So the new plan is that he will go with Halla in the medium sized field while Amore and Nala share the other shelter and have access to the big pasture. Then Halla and the skinny new guy can have two hay nets out and be eating all the time. Flaws in this plan are Halla might bully the new gelding, there is a small amount of grass in the medium field, and she won't be restricted to a tiny area.

My thinking is this: Halla's laminitis in my opinion is from acidosis/starch overload/toxins in the gut leaking into the bloodstream. I don't see how with the tiny amount of grass in this field Halla could eat even 1 lb over the course of a day. 1 lb of grass has a much smaller amount of starch/sugars than 1 lb of oats, even if it is very high in sugars. I am doubtful this could worsen or prolong her laminitis, now that I have her off the 10 lbs of oats that created the problem.

Many good sites say "stall rest" for weeks, even a month after all lameness is gone. Jaime Jackson and several other hoof experts say to let the horse be out and walking as long as you don't make them walk when they don't want to. Since I don't see how to endorse stall rest with _this_ horse, or even rest in a small pen when she gets worked up, I don't see how free walking on a sandy base/grass field will exacerbate the laminar injury more than stomping around and tight circles in a stall or small pen. Plus the stress has to contribute to the acidic gut, and it seems avoiding that stress of confinement might help.

I may be completely wrong about this, and it might make things worse. I have been here before, when Halla injured her knees severely. The vet said stall rest. Halla was slinging around the stall and stressing so hard I decided it was better to put her in a paddock. She self limited her exercise to the amount of pain she was having, and she healed on the move. I know there are things such as torn tendons and broken bones where a horse must be on complete rest. But I also think they must be made to heal on the go, since their bodies don't tolerate a lack of movement very well. I also think of the studies done on the wild brumbies that show signs of laminitis in the hooves. Those horses cannot have been put on stall rest, they must have kept with the herd as they recovered. Yes, wild horses die if their injuries are severe and we keep these horses alive. But are we certain complete rest is best? We know enforced exercise is harmful. But what about letting the horse move as they wish? 

I read a lot about how the mechanics of movement can increase the injury. But I don't understand exactly how even putting a horse in a stall makes this better. The horse continues standing and walking around in the stall. The mechanics of movement are still exerting force on the hoof. Halla has not even laid down much and stays on her feet, and walks, regardless of whether she is in a stall, small pen or larger area.

We get human patients moving as soon as possible. We've learned humans heal better when they are not on bed rest. I am trying to justify my thinking.

OK, that got long. I've sent for a quick shipment of Probios and Equishure, and I can buy prebiotics at my feed store. I am planning to try working on the hind gut acidosis to see if that will be the best strategy, along with free choice hay and just a few pounds of low starch, hay and beet pulp based pellets.


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## Hondo

Couple of comments. Are you doing daily fecal tests for pH? It seems that would be important information for when and how much anti-acidosis treatment to apply.

The laminitis in the brumbies likely did not have severly rotated hooves. If it's rotated as bad as the x-ray you posted, I'd be worried about sole puncture with too vigorous exercise. "As in chasing another horse".

I favor the idea you mention of letting the pain dictate the amount of movement. That's why I seldom take pain medication. Pain is our friend thing. So I was a little concerned about the bute. But if Hondo was hurting that bad and I wasn't sure he would make it, it'd be hard not to ease his pain.

But if Halla is feeling good enough to chase, hopefully she is off the bute.

Your over all planning sounds right to me, based on the little I know. What a headache! But now that you and Halla will eventually be experiencing a little more time on you hands, maybe she can be taught some tricks? Yall could make your own video! I'll be waiting for your standoff with isis.

Funny story about isis. One of the daughters here on the ranch had a dog named Isis. When she was living in Phoenix it occurred to her that she needed to be careful about going outside and hollering "Isis, Isis"! 

The trainer enjoys training horses. Wish I did, but I admit I do not. The guy is not only good at training and working with horses, he is great at voice over and story telling. Very very good.

I liked when he seemed to set the audience up with a simple rope gate opening and then went on to do a real gate without a bridle or halter. He's good!


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## walkinthewalk

It is at all possible to separate Halla from the other horses, yet she can still see them?

I would be having heart failure -- chasing and running is exactly why Joker lives on a meager 4-1/2 acres and Rusty has the 20 acres.

Rusty is the bully. Joker wouldn't fight to save his soul. Rusty knows that and takes advantage, so they meet at the fence several times daily, or on their respective ends of the barn.

I have never drylotted Joker because I don't have anywhere that makes sense to drylot him. Plus I would have to build him a shelter and carry him water; that is not going to happen out in the middle of the pasture.

He is on shortened pasture time and has not had to wear a muzzle since Spring of 2014.

He has had recurring laminitic issues. His are in the Fall - every time.

Thankfully my equine chiro does acupuncture and knows the "ting points" on a horse's hooves. It works, I watched her do it and thank goodness some one at Cavallo Boot company also believes in it:

https://www.cavallo-inc.com/equine-ting-points/

^^^That is NOT something for the untrained person to attempt. My chiro said she could teach me but I declined because I have her here once a month to work work on Joker and, Rusty as-needed.

I know there are folks on this forum who poo-poo anything but traditional scientific methods. I believe in BOTH traditional and alternative medicines. 

I will always try alternative methods first. If they work, and are almost always much less invasive, I stick with them.
there are times when nothing but traditional science works ----- I have Previcox in the cupboard and Banamine in the refrigerator for emergencies.

The trick is to know what to use and and when.

Owning a horse in today's world is not near as simplistic as when I was growing up on a 1950's -60's farm where we grew everything the horses and cattle ate, plus much of what we ate

Yesssss, in this instance, I would go back to the Good Old Days in a heartbeat


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## Hondo

Sorry to bombard with more reading, but found the quote and link below. It is from a producer but sounds right. Also read on an .edu site that hind gut acidity is in fact increased with stress and also with rapid food changes.

Quote: A diagnosis of hindgut acidosis is often over-looked as the above signs are not considered as severe as symptoms of associated disorders such as ulcers, colic and laminitis. Testing the pH of your horse’s manure with pH strips is an easy way to diagnose hindgut acidosis. This can in turn enable treatment before severe disorders develop. endquote

Link: Hindgut acidosis in horses | Hygain Horse Feed


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> We get human patients moving as soon as possible. We've learned humans heal better when they are not on bed rest. I am trying to justify my thinking.


While I agree it certainly makes sense that if Halla moves more on stall rest, then stall rest doesn't make much sense for her.

But I had to make a comment about humans healing better on bed rest.

When I had my acute pulmonary embolism I was put on crutches with instructions to put zero weight on the affected leg until the clot was stabilized with some very high dollar injections for five days. Up until then I was massaging my leg per usual injury treatment. Then, of course, the pains in my left side soon developed. NO MORE MASSAGING SIR!!

Not sure if this has any application to how to manage Halla, but I was just thinking if the vets recommendations were not working, which obviously they are not, maybe she needs more details about the problems of implementing her recommendations.

Your knowledge and experience far surpasses mine. At the same time if your vet is good, her's must surpass yours.

The big worry that keeps coming back to me is penetration. I've read in too many places that is often the end. So the movement thing has me concerned and wanted to blab about it a bit.

I'll go back outside now and putter some more.....


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## walkinthewalk

> *. Many good sites say "stall rest" for weeks, even a month after all lameness is gone. Jaime Jackson and several other hoof experts say to let the horse be out and walking as long as you don't make them walk when they don't want to. Since I don't see how to endorse stall rest with this horse, or even rest in a small pen when she gets worked up, I don't see how free walking on a sandy base/grass field will exacerbate the laminar injury more than stomping around and tight circles in a stall or small pen. Plus the stress has to contribute to the acidic gut, and it seems avoiding that stress of confinement might help.
> *


Joker has had a (1) hyperextended tendon on the left rear. 

(2) Torn tendons on both front legs, thanks to a AFA farrier who made a very inept attempt founder rehab.

I was armed with Bute both times, which Previcox has since taken its place. 

My vet is a hoof/leg specialist and also looks at the owner of the horse, when making judicial decisions such as in or out.

Joker has always come in at night to a stall with 12" of crush, grid mats, shavings on top of the mats. Out in the daytime.

At no time did the vet want me to stall him 24/7 but Joker is a quiet horse when kept by himself. Fortunately when we built this property I did a lot of cross fencing and gating, so I was able to easily shut off half acre, with free access to his own side of the barn.

I would open the stall door so he could come out when he wanted to, not when I thought he should.

As Joker healed and moved along a little faster, I opened the driveway gate between the house and barn permanently, giving him the entire yard that included a hill for his own little private hill work, if he so-chose.

When he got to feeling really good, I included a side pasture for his playpen.

It took eleven months before I let him out with the other three horses. The alpha was a fair leader and protected him from Rusty's bullying ways.

And yes it was a major PITA for us to have to get out of the vehicles to open/close two farm gates every day but, I signed onto these horses for better or worse. They loyally carryied my hind end thru some pretty rough territory, so a little inconvenience was a small price to pay, while the horse healed.

Over time, I had to lay my two elder and Alphas 1 & 2 horses to rest below the barn. That left Rusty wide open to stand on the school steps demanding every little kids lunch mo ey from them -------- except it was not allowing Joker to drink water, and chasing Joker into a corner to bite him and a are him senseless.

I tell Joker to pop Rusty a good one and Rusty would leave him alone but he won't so, I keep him in his "hospital" yard, which is still a lot of work for me, even though I don't have to close the second driveway gate<-------- boy we need that passing out emoticon:-|


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Couple of comments. Are you doing daily fecal tests for pH? It seems that would be important information for when and how much anti-acidosis treatment to apply.
> 
> The laminitis in the brumbies likely did not have severly rotated hooves. If it's rotated as bad as the x-ray you posted, I'd be worried about sole puncture with too vigorous exercise. "As in chasing another horse".
> 
> But if Halla is feeling good enough to chase, hopefully she is off the bute.
> 
> Funny story about isis. One of the daughters here on the ranch had a dog named Isis. When she was living in Phoenix it occurred to her that she needed to be careful about going outside and hollering "Isis, Isis"!


Quite funny about the dog named Isis. If i remember right, when I was much younger the word Isis did not really have any negative connotations and was related to an Egyptian goddess. A friend also had a horse named Jihad, and that was just a fancy Arabian name at the time. 

Thanks for the links, and all info is helpful. Thank you so much for your concern and assistance. I appreciate it very much.

I have been meaning to get some PH strips, but I thought we had some for our hot tub (we don't), then I thought I could get some at work but got too busy with actual work. I will grab some at the store tomorrow. I am thinking if I test before starting the Probios and Equishure, it might help me track changes. Also I am thinking it will be helpful to do a spot check every couple of weeks once everything is stabilized.

Tomorrow will be two weeks from the first lameness I noticed, and the worst lameness was almost a week ago. Since then every day is improvement. I am also very worried about sole penetration, and what I wouldn't do for a horse like Joker, calm when separated. I have her off the Bute, and am tapering off the Omeprazole for ulcer prevention. 

Interesting, @walkinthewalk that your vet never asked you to do complete stall rest with those injuries. 

Today the new big TB came, and we tried him with Halla. He was afraid to come within 50 feet of her or the shelter. The good news is she is moving even better today, and I would say a week ago she thought about every step while today she seemed to be forgetting she was sore, beginning to rush off, and then remembering her feet were sore and slowing. You couldn't notice every step was lame, only about every three or four.

Her hooves remain cool, no bounding pulses and the soles inflexible to my pushing on them. She also did not react to hard pressure from my hands. I am hoping she is stable and will continue to improve. 

But I had to put Amore in with her instead of Cooper, the new TB. It wasn't fair to him and also Halla kept rushing several feet to warn him off. So he went out with Nala in the big pasture, and immediately ran down to meet up with the two geldings just over the fence and they all stood together looking happy to be away from the mares. Nala just ignored Cooper. 

The barn owner showed me that Halla had kicked a board and broken it in half yesterday while in the small pen. Even if she is surrounded by other horses, she is not calm unless turned out with horses she likes. I don't really want her standing on her front hooves and giving power kicks with the hinds while recovering from laminitis.

So I have decided to put a small amount of hay out in the morning, hope Halla will get some and I'll have to cut back Amore's night hay if she starts getting too fat. Halla tends to defend the hay net and eat a lot, then lose interest after a half hour at which point Amore moves in and finishes it off. So free choice won't work with those two together. But she can eat for about 12 hours at night. 

I sent a message to Dr. Kellon, the vet nutritionist and she actually wrote back right away. Extremely kind of her to do so. I asked what other things I could feed Halla to keep weight on and listed all the things I can't get her to eat. She recommended that I look for soybean hulls, which she says are a similar nutrition profile to oats but without the high starch/sugar content. I am going to ask at the feed store. She also said I could try Cocosoya oil since Halla doesn't like oils, and said many horses really like the flavor of it. 
She also recommended supplements to help balance out the gut PH, and I believe most of the ones I've read about work in fairly the same manner with prebiotics, probiotics, and buffering properties.



> @walkinthewalk: And yes it was a major PITA for us to have to get out of the vehicles to open/close two farm gates every day but, I signed onto these horses for better or worse. They loyally carryied my hind end thru some pretty rough territory, so a little inconvenience was a small price to pay, while the horse healed.


You're a real horse person. :grin:


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> When I had my acute pulmonary embolism I was put on crutches with instructions to put zero weight on the affected leg until the clot was stabilized with some very high dollar injections for five days. Up until then I was massaging my leg per usual injury treatment. Then, of course, the pains in my left side soon developed. NO MORE MASSAGING SIR!!


Forgot to say, I can't believe you massaged your clot and gave yourself a pulmonary embolism!! 
Yikes, I wouldn't even think about telling people not to massage their blood clot. People know less about clots than I realize, and we often get people in the ER worried because they have a hematoma in the tissue and they are worried it will travel to their lungs or brain. Yes, it is a blood clot but it is not inside your circulatory system so cannot travel anywhere. I get a little paranoid when we are flying and make my husband pump his feet very often, especially going overseas. 

On another off topic note, the barn cat we took home is over his bladder infection so was able to have his broken tooth pulled today. It is a relief to have horse and cat soon hopefully heading toward a less painful existence.


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## Hondo

Ha ha. I'm not sure I actually caused the embolism by massaging it, but they didn't want any more breaking up and traveling up my leg. I had forgot about moving the legs on long flights and trips. I learned about that after my embolism.

This is really really good sounding news. Time for cautious optimism. May be a while but it sounds like Halla will ride again!

Wondering......., could Amore wear a muzzle part time when with Halla, or would there be no one to install/remove it?

Edit: BTW, I didn't know I had a blood clot. I had fallen on my leg with a dirt bike and was just massaging sore spots per usual. I didn't think I had fallen on it hard enough for it to be sore but figured I had.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

For 24/7 slow feed with Amore in the pen, you might try a nibble net. Those things really keep my two piggy mares from becoming obese, even on free choice. They are pretty much indestructible (my girls would tear through any other net I bought) and you can get them with very small holes. They're a bit pricey, but IMO totally worth it.

I don't think they would work well with alfalfa. More of a grass hay thing.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> For 24/7 slow feed with Amore in the pen, you might try a nibble net. Those things really keep my two piggy mares from becoming obese, even on free choice.


I have two nibble nets, but gave up on them. You wouldn't believe how talented Amore is. She devised a system where she grabbed small bites and pulled quickly with her front teeth, in a rapid tempo so she could get the hay out faster. That was with the 1 1/4 inch holes for "extreme slow feeding." She could get 10 lbs out in two hours. When I put her hay in a large hole net, she slows down and eats it in about two hours also, but without stomping and squealing because she can get bigger bites and is less frustrated. So it makes no difference for her if the hay is in small hole nets, big hole nets or just piled on the floor. She eats at the same rate!

The grazing muzzle is a good idea though, I will try it.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, that makes more sense than that you were massaging a known blood clot. Anyone would do what you did.

OK, laminitis is getting boring, I will try not to clog up pages of this journal with it. Halla: eating, no visible weight loss, easily picked up all four feet for me and held them today. Still off stride at the walk.

I did something I felt I had to do today, told a friend I didn't think she should consider trailering her horse with chronic laminitis over 2,500 miles to Alaska later this year. She said she didn't think the horse was in pain, just "sore," so I sent her a link showing horse pain faces and also explained that grade 4 lameness is being lame at the walk. And that "lame" doesn't necessarily mean one leg has a visible hitch, but that I consider her horse lame since she does not walk freely with a steady rhythm but instead pauses and thinks about moving each hoof before she does it. 

My friend thinks her horse is not in pain because she only visibly limps badly at the trot. She spends hours laying down each day, which my friend also said she considers normal for an older horse. The horse is about 21-22, and is obese with tiny hooves that have coffin bone rotation and paper thin soles. She is lame on soft sand. 

I encouraged her to get the vet out for another opinion. I've known these two for about 4 years. In all that time the horse has been lame most of the time, and she has never had a vet see the horse. I just feel very bad for the horse, so can't keep my mouth shut. 

My friend who had the concussion when Amore fell down last summer now has her new TB she is leasing at the barn. Cooper is a really sweet horse, and I think just the perfect gelding for her to enjoy. Apparently Amore was galloping up and down the fenceline next to him today, bucking and showing off. Everyone says she seems to be feeling really good for her age. 

Nala's rider owned Cooper about four years ago, but sold him because he was so mellow and slow. So she knows a lot about his personality already, which is very helpful. 
We decided to take out Cooper, Nala and the horse I was supposed to try out, Sizzler, another TB. It was raining pretty steadily, and both Cooper and Sizzler have not been ridden in quite awhile so we were just going to ride around the property.

Sizzler's owner told Nala's owner that we can take him out and ride him, he's about 17, and does well being ridden on trails but is barn sour.

Well, I would say serious separation anxiety rather than barn sour. To me barn sour is a horse that wants to head back to the barn more rapidly than you wish. Sizzler let me lead him out of the field, but once we were 20 feet from his buddies he started calling and calling and getting very upset. I hoped once he was tied with Nala and Cooper he would be happy, but those were not the friends he wanted. I put a saddle on and we all went out to the arena/round pen area. I lunged Sizzler to see how he moved and whether he knew anything. He didn't want to walk, just run around.

Nala's rider and Cooper's rider got on and started going around outside the arena. I tried to get Sizzler to stand, and I thought I'd bridle him to see how he responded to it before getting on. I'd have been fine if he anxiously was moving but let me put the bit in once I got it in position. But he was purposefully refusing to let me put the bit in or get the bridle up in position, which to me is a sign he needs some more training before riding. So I told the other girls to go ride around the fields and that I needed to do some training with Sizzler.

It was already too late to avoid some flooding, so I just worked on leading and following commands while lunging. He didn't want to pay any attention to me, so I changed commands quickly so he had to focus a little. Once he was able to walk a bit on the lunge, I took all pressure off. Once he was able to stand next to me without rushing off on the lead, and to back up if he forged ahead, I took him out of the arena and went to find the others. 

I wanted to walk him around the outside of the pastures where Sizzler normally lives, to adjust him slightly to being near but not with his friends. His buddy mare called loudly to him, and he called loudly back. I tried to follow the girls who were riding, but fell back because Sizzler kept forging ahead and crossing my path so I had to circle him. After about 1/4 mile, I got him to where I was walking next to a fence, and if he crossed in front of me I could get him to go back and sideways out of my path. Then we'd take some straight steps until he forged, and I'd have him move out of the way again. 

I think he learned a little, and in the end I brought him into the barn and had him stand for a little bit, trying to be patient in sight of his buddy mare who was in a stall. He tried to kick me when I picked up his hind hooves, so I gave him a smack on the butt which he seemed to understand because he did quit that and let me pick out his feet.

The other girls seemed to have a nice ride. At least I got to put my new saddle on a horse, although Sizzler just wore it and I didn't sit in it. Nala's rider liked my new saddle, and thankfully my Duett sold today so I don't have a surplus of saddles. 

Hopefully with a little more work we can get Sizzler going. I am hoping he does know how to behave better, but just was not used to going away from his friends. It can be difficult for a horse to concentrate when having severe separation anxiety. I will have to try to bridle him in his stall at night to see if he seems to do OK with it and if he likes the bit his owner has him in. She hasn't ridden him in a long time, apparently, and someone has seen her ACE her other horse before riding, so I'm not sure how well trained this one is. Definitely needs more work before I'm hopping on.


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## Hondo

Thinking about having a hard time keeping one's mouth shut. Something I've unsuccessfully wrestled with oftentimes during my life.

Horse people, and others as well, seem to feel they are being attacked at the tiniest suggestion that something they do may be unintentionally harming something they care very deeply about. Making suggestions alluring to that can be a very difficult problem.

I deal with that problem here on the ranch where traditional shoeing has been done for over 100 years. I may have made the tiniest of inroads but even that has taken three years.

I'm thinking of course about the lame horse looking at a trip to Alaska. If these people, ranch included, could just see an x-ray of a horse with a rotated pedal bone along side of full color pictures of the dissection of a similar hoof along with x-rays and pictures of a healthy foot they might get it.

But if presented with the pictures, they might still feel like they were being attacked and become even more hardened in their incorrect beliefs.

Maybe in a barn one could post some pictures up in some location where the party would "stumble" upon them. But here on the ranch, I just don't know how to approach it.

It is a problem keeping the mouth shut. But to ignore it and just forget about it is almost paramount to not caring. 

I reckon there is just no way to right all the worlds wrongs. But it's still depressing at times.


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## egrogan

One day in the future I really want one of those OTTBs that more adventurous riders passed on for being too slow and boring :wink:

I grew up near Saratoga race track, have some extended family with connections to the racing industry, and have a conflicted fan relationship with racing. I love all the beautiful things about it. But the less beautiful parts are hard to reconcile. At some point in my horsey life, I think taking on an OTTB will be partial penance paid.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

If I asked my vet for ACE he'd look at me as if I had two heads and hand me a list of local trainers, telling me to give them a call. 

He has no problem giving me bute or dex or pretty much anything else. 
I can't imagine having to sedate your own horse in order to ride it.

Gotta trot, sounds like you've found yourself a new project!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> It is a problem keeping the mouth shut. But to ignore it and just forget about it is almost paramount to not caring.
> 
> I reckon there is just no way to right all the worlds wrongs. But it's still depressing at times.


Agree very much.
@egrogan, I've met as many TBs that are mellow, sweet and slow as I have met ones that are hot and excitable. I bet you'd love to have one. 
@Reiningcatsanddogs, I wondered about that too...how does she end up with ACE to give? But I know some people ask for it for farrier work, and some vets around here will give it to you for that. I would be very afraid to ride a horse on ACE, it seems unsafe in case they tripped or something.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Erogan, We were blessed to have an off track TB for three weeks as a rescue. I knew him before he went to the owner from which we recovered him from after he got sick. He was the sweetest boy. 17.1 hh and just amazingly a good gentle boy.

He got sick, owner couldn't/didn't want to spend the money so we took him on. He was improving for four weeks, then twisted his gut and we had to put him down. Broke my heart. They are out there....


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> how does she end up with ACE to give? But I know some people ask for it for farrier work, and some vets around here will give it to you for that. I would be very afraid to ride a horse on ACE, it seems unsafe in case they tripped or something.


Around here, giving ace to "take the edge off" while riding is not uncommon. The med comes from the vet and the people I know who do it are giving it orally. Its not enough to have the horse visibly sedated (as one would for a farrier), nor have I seen any horses have issues maintaining their feet.

Not my deal, personally, but probably better for the horse and rider than having a wreck. In some cases, I think people are in too big a hurry to do what they want versus taking the time to train for the appropriate actions/reactions. However, I can understand a timid rider wanting a bit of assistance when taking a reactive horse into a new situation for the first time, like a good arena horse out on trail for the first time. That is actually the situation I have seen it used in the most. Then after the first ride out is successful, its not used again.


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## gottatrot

Quite a good day today. 
The vet gave me the test results, and Halla is negative for everything, no Cushing's and no IR. The Cushing's test was high normal, but I've heard that it can elevate quite a bit during acute laminitis, so the fact that she was in the normal range along with the fact she does not have other classic signs makes me feel confident she does not have Cushing's.

I told the vet Halla is taking bigger steps, is not losing weight on the low starch diet and is started on Equishure and Probios. She was quite pleased. I have noticed Halla's manure is actually looking quite different already, more pellet balls than usual and less of a homogenous glob. We can't find the PH strips anywhere around here so I have to order some online. 

Still, I was wishing I didn't have to wait for the laminitis to completely stabilize before I could do more to get Halla comfortable/help those thin soles. Tonight I found online that the Cloud boots from Easycare have a new system to raise the heel and help the angles during founder. I am quite excited about this, and am going to measure Halla tomorrow and order a pair.
EasyCare Therapy Click System - Fitting | EasyCare Inc.

At the barn, the new TB Cooper has been stuck out in the rain because Nala decided Halla was right and that Cooper should be boycotted. So she wasn't letting him near her shelter or the water. The barn owner put him over in a different field with another gelding, and tonight I saw the two of them were nuzzling their noses together as they shared a pile of hay. I like how everyone here wants the horses to avoid stress and to have access to the shelters and friends they get along with.

I had time to play with Sizzler a little tonight. First, I went in his stall and he was like, "Oh, it's you," and went back to eating. Most geldings are just so much more pliable than most mares. I picked out all his hooves and brushed him. I put on his bridle, and he put his head down and took it easily. Then I led him outside and tested how he responds to his bit. He was supple and light when I signaled in each direction and asked him to back and stop from the ground.

I think he seemed poorly trained the other day due to a combination of a change to his schedule, separation anxiety, and "stranger danger." He was thinking today that he knew me already. 

So I put his halter on and started working a little on the separation anxiety. I noticed he is on the chubby side of normal, and guessed since he's a TB that probably means he is food oriented. He was a little nervous for a bit coming out of his stall, so I walked him around to look at all the other horses. I've noticed horses really think it's interesting to be the only one out while the others are in their stalls or pens. To get to go and visit the other horses and show off that they get to roam around on the outside always seems to perk them up. 

Then I found the secret. I found little patches of grass and pointed them out to Sizzler. Next thing you know, we were roaming farther from the barn and were soon out of sight. Sizzler's mare called out to him, wondering where he was, and he didn't answer, busy stuffing his mouth on the big bunches of grass I was showing him. After a bit, we went back to the barn and I had him stand for a few minutes tied up outside. He looked a little anxious at one point, so I went and got a carrot. Again, he settled down once he was getting a treat and thinking positive thoughts. When I put him back in his stall, he went to the door and was wanting to go back out. I think he will think positively about doing things with me after a bit, and soon I will try a ride.


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## bsms

Nice to see an update that I can feel good about "liking"!


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## Hondo

Whew! Sounds like it'll take some time but outta the woods! I can actually go watch Tribute To Valhalla again. Very happy to hear that report.

My pH strips came in yesterday. I ordered one that had a narrow measurement band between 5.5 and 8.0 in 0.2 steps. The color changes between 6.6 and 5.8 are fairly large for reading the color match.

https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Essent...d=1486565928&sr=8-3&keywords=hydrion+ph+paper

I haven't gotten around to using it yet. I got it mostly to keep an eye on things when the grass starts coming out which it already is some.

I'll be betting that Halla's is already corrected to above 6.0. May take longer to get a full flora established but it sounds like she doing great.

Glad you're having fun with the baby.


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## Hondo

Whew! What a relief. Sounds like only a matter of time now.

My test strips came in yesterday. I ordered a range between pH 5.5 to 8.0. The color matches between 6.0 and 6.6 have a fairly large change for reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Essent...d=1486565928&sr=8-3&keywords=hydrion+ph+paper

I have not used them yet but will today just to see and for practice. I mostly got the strips for when the grass starts coming out which it is a little already. I will use it as an alert to when to use a grazing muzzle or to limit his grazing during certain times of the day.

I'll be betting that Halla is already within the proper range. But I'm one that likes to know.

Sounds like you're having fun with Sizzler

Edit: The internet dropped out and I thought I had lost the previous post. It came back out of the ether somehow????????


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## horseluvr2524

Nice updates! I've been MIA because of cat related computer problems. You'll find the info on that in my journal which I am going to update right now...

Awesome that you have a horse to ride, even if he is a project


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## gottatrot

Tonight Halla came trotting through the gate to her field, and then was wanting to take some trot steps going down the hill. I think it's because I ordered her Cloud boots last night, so she feels duty bound to make sure I will be uncertain about whether I wasted that money. 
Guess I should have bought them sooner!

Actually, I was thinking that her progress probably makes sense. I'm thinking it may have taken about a week for the acidosis to improve in her gut, and that would have to be resolved before any erosions that would allow bacteria/toxins to enter the system would start to heal. Mucous membranes heal fast, so maybe after another week toxins would stop entering the system and since it's been 2 1/2 weeks since this all started it would make sense that her hooves could be beginning to feel better right about now.

I'm feeling so positive that I'm beginning to wonder what a safe period would be after all lameness is gone to start riding her again. I am thinking if she has six months of good hoof growth and good xrays, that might be about right. Something to look forward to.

The horse with chronic laminitis finally had a vet visit today. In case you're wondering, I would not post anything on here that I have not already made clear to the horse's owner, so she knows how I feel already. I am glad for the horse's sake that I pushed the issue a bit. The vet said she would not give a health certificate for travel, so that's a relief. This disappointed the horse's owner, but I think although she was trying to be in denial about the horse's condition and still is a little bit in denial, it did not surprise her. 

Everything was confirmed, nothing is acute. The founder and chronic laminitis have caused coffin bone remodeling and ski tips from the very thin soles. I hope knowing this is the case will help the owner get the vettec padding and glue on protection soon that she has been talking about for awhile. Arthritis in both pasterns and a bone spur in one knee are also contributing to the lameness. The good news for me is that now the horse will be on daily Equioxx, so I will feel she is suffering less. 

The owner has asked me if she does move away and leave the horse, if I will keep an eye on her. If this comes up again I will have to be clear that she will not want me to be the one making the decisions about the horse in her absence, because I would already have the horse put down. If the horse seems to feel better with hoof protection and daily pain medication, I may change my mind. 

Something I have observed in the past but it keeps getting confirmed. When buying a horse, it is so important to make sure those joints and angles line up. This horse has such bad arthritis in her early 20s, and mainly this seems to be due to the fact that her pasterns are not straight. If you bend her pastern it angles in at the joint rather than lining up with the cannon bone. Because of this, the horse has always paddled when she moved. It made her gaits comfortable, but was detrimental to the horse.


----------



## Hondo

I can't imagine the relief you must be feeling. I personally had serious fears she would not make it. So happy. It'll be interesting to note in the future if her spontaneity levels out a bit after being off the oats.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

That's wonderful news!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@gottatrot

I could be way off base here, but from reading at this end, it seems there are a lot of horses with laminitis at your barn. Have you looked into the possibility that there may be some high NSC weeds or even toxic weeds in your area that the horses could be coming in contact with? It might explain why Halla now, after all this time, suddenly seems to have developed this problem and to such a degree.

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/Founder_FodderWeeds.pdf 

I know on our property after five years of drought and then a return to copious rains that weeds have migrated into spots where they were not before.

To be clear, I'm not blaming your BO for it sometimes it just happens.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I could be way off base here, but from reading at this end, it seems there are a lot of horses with laminitis at your barn. Have you looked into the possibility that there may be some high NSC weeds or even toxic weeds in your area that the horses could be coming in contact with?


It's a good theory and I would have thought the same if I didn't know the details. The horse with chronic laminitis has been that way for years, and was at the last barn I was at also (we moved about the same time to this barn). 
She foundered in S. Carolina prior to moving here and has never been truly sound since. At our last barn, the barn owner was unhappy about this horse being so lame and would show me how she couldn't step out of her stall if she had a piece of wood shaving under her sole. If you removed the piece of wood, she'd stop limping. 

After we moved to this new barn, I started trying to help the owner. The horse was thin, because the hay was getting soaked for 12 hours and all the calories were being removed. The owner went to a Pete Ramey clinic and he put some glue on boots on and told her to follow up with the vet. That was a couple years ago, and now the vet is being consulted. The owner kept the horse on the sole, and I spent a lot of time trying to convince her that this horse should not have the hoof wall removed at the toe, and that she needed some sole protection. Finally I told her that she needed to understand the horse was not going to grow down a better hoof, and that nothing she could trim would fix the horse because the damage was permanent. This horse has the tiniest frogs I've ever seen, and essentially no digital cushion. 

The horse is on a low NSC diet, dry lotted all the time with tested hay 24/7. She's also getting the supplement HEIRO. But the owner also believes in Dr. Getty's idea of never letting the horse go hungry, and this horse eats many pounds of hay and is about a 7 on the body condition score chart. Which makes me cringe seeing her teeny little QH hooves and the way she gimps around. 

The other horse at the barn had laminitis but fully recovered. He was moved to our barn after getting laminitis from the pasture he was in which was full of clover. Once he was off the clover, he recovered quickly. He wears a grazing muzzle, is only on the field for about 4 hours a day and has tons of hay, so is also overweight but no further issues with his hooves. I trimmed him the first several times and now he has a great barefoot trimmer. He seems 100% sound.

Both of the above horses are IR, the chronic laminitis horse tested positive years ago, and the second horse I am guessing because he gains weight and fat pads so easily. 

Then there is Halla who is not IR but was getting 10 lbs of oats daily.
So I don't think we can blame anything on the fields, since the horses that are out all the time have not had laminitis except Halla.


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## gottatrot

I could use some better voices in my head, giving me advice. 
Sometimes I just decide something is fine and go do it. Even though I can think of repercussions, they just don't motivate me enough.

So tonight I rode Sizzler for the first time, just as it was getting dark. I could not think of anything that would make it better to have a horse rear or buck in the daylight. So I tacked him up, laid on my belly over the saddle and had him walk off, and he was not perturbed. I hopped off, brought him back over to the mounting block and got on. Then we rode around the barn, away and back and away again for about ten minutes. The moon was very full tonight, so I could see a little. 

I always take it with a grain of salt when people say their horse is trained, that they've ridden him, etc. Part of me thinks that if a beginner rider was able to ride the horse, there will be no problem. But I've been on a couple well trained horses that were out of practice and did unexpected things on their first ride after a significant time off. One very sweet and kind TB reared straight up in the air when I got on, due to the saddle I was told was his own saddle pinching him just wrong when I sat down. He was very big and I've never gone quite that straight up before. I was literally looking at the arena rafters and noticing they were feeling close. He was such a mellow horse, and I think he even surprised himself. 

Sizzler was a very good boy, ready I think to go out riding with our friends. For the past several days I've been walking him around and handling him and giving him treats. Now he's really interested when I come into the barn, wondering what we're going to do. He seems more interested in doing something than in eating his nighttime hay. 

It was funny, he did not seem anxious, but I could feel him thinking about getting anxious. I'd walk him in one direction, and then I would feel his muscles starting to tense, but he took so long to reach this thought that by the time he was there I already had him doing something else. He was working so hard to keep up with me that we left his anxiety behind. He is a big lug, and I quite like him. I'll have to get some pics of him.


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## Hondo

May I tell you about falling off Hondo yesterday? Okay, thanks.

I bought a new saddle to try out for fit. While Hondo was eating I put an old bedsheet on him to keep the saddle clean in case I needed to return it, which I do.

I opened the box with the saddle and carefully laid a 1/8" thick sheet of foam from the top of the box onto the table in my yard and then placed the saddle, sans stirrups or cinch, on Hondo's back.

As I looked at it I wondered how it would feel to sit in. Using a step latter I mounted and sat in the saddle.

I was sitting there with Hondo eating and me inspecting the fit and feel of the saddle.

Then a very nice soft wisp of a breeze came floating across the yard. And the foam sheet came floating nicely off the table and across the yard.

Hondo! Hold it! Whoa! Plop, thump.

Lesson learned? Sadly, probably not.

PS: Be careful with that Sizzler. I can see you easily winding up owning three horses.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> I could use some better voices in my head, giving me advice.
> Sometimes I just decide something is fine and go do it. Even though I can think of repercussions, they just don't motivate me enough.


Hey, this describes me pretty well over the past week or so! :lol:


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Then a very nice soft wisp of a breeze came floating across the yard. And the foam sheet came floating nicely off the table and across the yard.
> 
> Hondo! Hold it! Whoa! Plop, thump.


I hope you are OK, but I couldn't help laughing. 
What kind of saddle were you trying? Too bad it didn't fit.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I hope you are OK, but I couldn't help laughing.
> What kind of saddle were you trying? Too bad it didn't fit.


Laughing??!! Ha! Brought out shadow sadism huh? No, I was laughing and still am.

If I were to re-write it, following your lead on the voices in your head, I would have said, "I was looking at the saddle when this faint voice suggested it would be interesting to sit on it to see how it felt", and I answered, "Good idea, like, what could happen, right?"

Couple of sore spots. I tasted a little blood. Have only a slight bruising about my cheek and teeth. Little puffy inside the lip. I was out with Hondo today for five hours working on trail so I must be ok.

Thanks for your concern 

Whoops, Edit: The saddle, I got suckered in by downunderweb.com. Don't ever do business with them. Saddle with 4 inch gullet on a horse that measures for a draft saddle? No problem. It'll fit fine. Just use a thick saddle pad. It was sitting on both the withers and the scapula. Three tracings and four pictures. Hey George, ship another.


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## bsms

I like my DownUnder saddle. But they are truly terrible at saddle fitting. I had an idiot there tell me the saddle should be placed directly on top of the shoulder blades for a proper fit. There is normal stupid and breathtaking stupid, and she was somewhat stupider than breathtaking stupid.


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## Hondo

If you can keep it off the trapezius and scapula congratulations. You may have the only horse their saddle will fit.

Their "adjustment" consist bending the gullet frame to the slope of the shoulders, which they do fine. But the gullet width and placement of the panels are unchanged. The tops of my panels at the gullet need to be a minimum of 8 inches apart to rest upon the latissimus dorsi. They are 4 inches apart resting on the trapezius AND scapula.

If they know anything about saddles at all, they do know that but just don't care.

Here is the wither tracing I sent. Three years ago when I compared a saddle to a humans back pack, I would have believed them and harmed my horse. Bad bad bad. Unconscionable.

Quote: Hello,

The saddle will work find. Just put on a thicker endurance pad and you find balance in this saddle.

Regards,
Tim
GM
Down Under Saddle Supply


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, that saddle fitting advice is very bad. As we know, the saddle has to fit within a reasonable range first. If it is a close fit, pad adjustments can be made. But I always think of that analogy of putting a thick sock into a boot that doesn't fit. It just causes more problems.

My supervisor at work tonight walked by and picked a piece of hay out of my hair. She is a horse person and I used to trim her horse's hooves when we kept our horses at the same barn. :grin: 
At work with me tonight are three other horse people. One has a couple of horses currently, the other had a Morgan for many years until he died at age 37, and the third is my friend who is now leasing a horse at my barn.

Which brings me to my story of bad barn luck. The vet was out again tonight, to see Cooper, the horse my work friend is leasing.
Yesterday was a beautiful day, and although I had to work, Nala's rider and Cooper's rider took the two horses out. They had a good trip down the beach. Unfortunately, two off-the-track TBs on a fine day, with one out on the beach for the first time in quite awhile...well, they meant to canter but lost control and the horses raced off at the gallop. Apparently it took some time to get things back under control.

This morning, poor Cooper couldn't move. Apparently he tied up from the sudden bout of exercise. If you don't know, some Thoroughbred lines are genetically predisposed to exertional rhabdomyolysis. Submaximal exercise is one known trigger. As I understand it, the calcium channels that control muscle contraction vs relaxation malfunction and this means the muscles keep contracting. So the muscle damage would be equivalent to someone out of shape lifting heavy weights over and over for a couple of hours straight. 
I've caused a horse to tie up before; the horse got very excited and we galloped off from a standstill, which triggered this same malfunction in the muscles and soon after we stopped he stiffened up. 

On the one hand, I've been laughed at because I get horses in shape very slowly. I'd rather be safe than sorry, and there is that quote about how horses are born, and then they spend the rest of their lives trying to kill themselves. My horses have been very rarely injured or lame, and I can't ever remember it occurring due to riding. Usually they injure themselves in turnout. I like to think it is due to some carefulness on my part (feeding pounds and pounds of oats excepted!). On the other hand, many of the horses I've thought confirmed all my fears about working horses too hard too soon have turned out to have other problems.

For instance, my friend's warmblood. He'd been evented for many years, so had a good baseline fitness capacity. Yet once in hard work he kept injuring tendons. These incidents seemed like possibly from a bit of overwork/under training, or from an accident (putting a leg through a fence), but in the end it was discovered he has DSLD, which is a progressive tendon disease. Other horses I've seen have issues have had similar physical problems, such as this TB tying up today. So, while I'm still going to be careful about conditioning horses slowly, I hope I will be less quick to say the owner wasn't careful enough, because sometimes we discover a physical issue with a horse when we finally get them out and working.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> [MENTION=146122]At work with me tonight are three other horse people. One has a couple of horses currently, the other had a Morgan for many years until he died at age 37, and the third is my friend who is now leasing a horse at my barn.


Funny about the hay in the hair.

Now I have to ask, with three horse people together at work, did any work get done? JK of course! 

So, Hondo is 17. I have been figuring that with care, he will make it to 27 when I'll be 85. Now I have to think about making it to 95 in order to provide for his continued care :shock:

I had to Google rhabdomyolysis. I didn't read anywhere that susceptibility increases with age but I'm pretty sure it does.

Conditioning horses is one thing I learned about right away here on the ranch. When I was first riding Hondo I was told he needed some short rides and needed his saddle removed during breaks when possible to get him into condition for both muscle tone and the skin on his back. They said it's just like tender hands working. Made sense to me.

One contribution that Halla has made to me is getting me off my duff in procrastinating about reading up on the Horse's GI system. Just read this article on horse.com that provides what seems to be a pretty good thumbnail 101 sketch of the basics. I was looking for time duration's in the various sections of gut. They cover that and a lot more. 100 feet of intestine? Wow!

Nothing that you don't likely already know but thought I'd share for the interest of others. 

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10797/the-gastrointestinal-gi-tract


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> So, Hondo is 17. I have been figuring that with care, he will make it to 27 when I'll be 85. Now I have to think about making it to 95 in order to provide for his continued care.


Thanks for that link about the GI system. Great info.
Yes, with your hoof care and health care Hondo is going to keep going at least twenty more years and you will have to find an assisted living home where they allow you to take your horse with you. Maybe my horse nurse friends and I will start one. 

I finally got some pictures and videos of some different things today. First, here is a video of Halla. It shows her walking without boots briefly, then some shots of her front hooves. Then of course I had to show her peeing with her new Cloud boots on. At the end she is walking and trying out her new boots. They seem to feel a little different but she seemed to adjust quickly and appeared comfortable. 

We are moving her into the bigger pasture because she is trotting out of her pen in the morning and also cantering around a little. As you can see, Nala started following her around right away, relieved to have someone back to show her where to go.
The boots are for "light turnout," so I hope Halla knows what that means and doesn't destroy them.





Here is Cooper, an educational video to show how a horse can look after tying up the day before. He'd been standing still in the field for awhile, and this was how he started off. I didn't take another video but after his handler walked him around for another 10 minutes he was moving slowly but more fluidly and easily. I imagine it feels similar to when you've worked out extremely hard and then lay down or sit in a chair for awhile. You almost have to break your muscles loose to get moving again. The vet checked on him and thinks he'll be feeling pretty good in several days if he gets turnout and movement. He moved a lot worse yesterday.





A cute picture of Amore just finishing standing up. When I arrived she was laying down napping and she seemed to think I was coming to give her a treat (of course I was).









And a picture of my new friend, Sizzler. He's standing much better for me already.








His hooves are not good, but he is sound. I would hate to think about what might happen to hooves like these with acute laminitis like Halla has had. There's not much of a safety net.









A little more info:
To illustrate some about how to see if the crookedness in a leg comes from which part. Not great video but hopefully you can see how when the joint is bent the pastern cants in toward the right side of the video. 




Here is a photo to illustrate as well:
This leg bone slants to the left of the photo, starting at the pastern joint. So you can see why this horse has arthritis.


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## Reds La Boop

And where is Oliver???


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## gottatrot

Oliver, who I would love to ride and claim as my own (except he's a one person horse!) actually belongs to @Reiningcatsanddogs. :grin:
He is welcome to come and visit me anytime, and I'm guessing he has better hooves than Sizzler so I wouldn't have to worry about him as much.


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## Reds La Boop

Boy I really misread that. I was pretty pooped. No wonder I could not find a picture of him. I can be quite the Idiot at times.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Reds La Boop. Here's Oliver. He's an estimated 9 yo, grade, $300 horse I rescued (I have before pictures in my Horse Forum barn) two years ago. Working stud until 7 and he still has some of his studdish tendencies at times. He's my special boy.












@gottatrot, I discovered last week he is not a one person horse. He is a one adult and any manner of small (under seven yo) children! Oliver really likes the little ones. 

My two year old grandson has claimed Oliver for himself after "riding" him a few times. He started waking up in the morning saying he wanted to ride his horse and when I asked him which one was his, he pointed to Oliver.

And someday we'd love to visit and ride on that beach of yours!


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## Hondo

Oliver doesn't look like someone I'd want to meet in a dark alley!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Aww Hondo, nothing to be afraid of.

It’s kind of strange watching the g-kids and various visitors with the horses. 
J goes for Ghost (generally plays by the rules but, has a benign mischievous streak). 
W goes for Oliver (doesn’t put up with any crap, willing to push the envelope of ability). 
D goes equally for Cowboy and Caspian (mind all over the place) 
G isn’t interested yet 
O goes for Bella (stately and feminine). 

Each of the horses is very much like the children who tend to gravitate towards them. 

These are all very young kids who know little to nothing of horses but, seem to be able to see the horse none the less. It does make me wonder what happens to us whereby that skill is something we appear to be born with, then we lose it and have to re-learn it? Some seem to have gotten lucky, never lost it and instead are able to build upon it throughout their lives.


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## Zexious

Just wanted to say how handsome Oliver looks! <3


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Thank you Zexious! I'll tell him you said so. That's my favorite picture of him.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Each of the horses is very much like the children who tend to gravitate towards them.


Now that is interesting! I need to go back to a bunch of pictures to see which of the herd four of my young GK's gravitated to when they were here.

Oliver just looks sooo strong and powerful in that picture.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Oliver just looks sooo strong and powerful in that picture.


Oh, he is believe me. The key to him is through his mind, not his body. Then he's a piece of cake.

People look at a horse like him and think you have to be strong to ride him. Nope, you just have to know how to get him with you. 

I’m 115 lbs, even Little Caspian at 600 lbs is stronger than me if he so chose…To me there is no difference riding a horse like Oliver or Caspian or the 17hh TB we had for a while, the body doesn’t matter as much as the mind does. 

PS he has the most wonderful lope and gallop! You cover so much ground you feel like you are flying! Which is why I would love to try out Gottatrot's beach! We have very few places around here that are not rocky to run on. 

Typical trail


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs Around here that'd be considered a groomed trail! Hondo is fine barefoot on that stuff.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs Around here that'd be considered a groomed trail! Hondo is fine barefoot on that stuff.


It is here too. That picture is in the Hill Country State Natural Area near Bandera on a designated trail. Off roading is another ball of wax. Oliver will run on rocks if you let him, I limit him to short spurts as he is barefoot too. So far, so good.

This is one of my personal trails at my house. We don't run this one though!  I might be crazy but, I'm not insane...yet.










You have to jump up onto the last rock step. Non sure footed horses need not apply!


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## Hondo

Here's one of our groomed trails. (i think we're competing on whose trail is the roughest)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Here's one of our groomed trails. (i think we're competing on whose trail is the roughest)
> 
> Rocky Arizona Horse Trail.mp4 - YouTube


Naw Hondo, no competing unless you want to. I find people get an idea in their heads what Texas is like (first pic)and it can be so different from one place to another that you can barely believe it is the same state. I love my Hill Country but, a lot of people hate it for riding because it is so dang rocky with steep hills. I know on one trail I used to ride, there were long stretches where there was no soil left and you were just riding on one big solid rock shelf. 

Having lived in Florida prior to Texas, I sometimes miss my beaches, palm trees, lush vegetation, rains and the sand that is easy on the feet and thus find myself coveting Gottatrot's beach!


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## Hondo

Have you done any riding on the beach in Texas? Or is there any beach that can be ridden on?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We hauled down near Corpus once but that was a six hour round trip driving. Not something I can do all that often.


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## Reds La Boop

Here is Cooper, an educational video to show how a horse can look after tying up the day before. He'd been standing still in the field for awhile, and this was how he started off. I didn't take another video but after his handler walked him around for another 10 minutes he was moving slowly but more fluidly and easily. I imagine it feels similar to when you've worked out extremely hard and then lay down or sit in a chair for awhile. You almost have to break your muscles loose to get moving again. The vet checked on him and thinks he'll be feeling pretty good in several days if he gets turnout and movement. He moved a lot worse yesterday.


I am curious. How old is Cooper? Could you lend a little history on him?


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## gottatrot

Cooper is 17, an off the track TB. He's been sound but hasn't been worked since last April. Nala's rider owned him for about two years and used him as a lesson horse. She sold him to his current owner a couple of years ago, since she wasn't using him and had another horse that was more fun for her to ride. 
Unfortunately, he looked worse yesterday morning so his owner took him back home and the lease is on hold to see if he recovers. It's not certain now if he did tie up, I believe they are waiting on blood work. He might have had some underlying problem that showed up now that he began doing some exercise.
The more I look at that video, the more I suspect his left shoulder is bothering him.

If anyone is interested, the vet emailed me Halla's original xrays. She says we will do another set in a couple of weeks and then I will trim her hooves at that time.








Right front








Left front


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## Hondo

I've been wanting to see Halla's x-rays. Those don't look nearly as scary as the one you posted as an example. With the disclaimer that I don't really know what I talk about half the time, with the care she is certainly sure to recieve, ski tip does not seem to be in the offing.

Gonna take a while to grow that hoof wall back down tight for certain.

I forgot to mention. Yes, Cooper seemed almost lame on one if his fores. Not quite as bad as Dragon when he got his hoof capsule in front punctured, but still pretty significant to my eyes.

But you're thinking shoulder? I'll be interested to see the outcome of this.

Edit: Just looking at that collateral groove, I'm wondering if that what helps/causes the tipping of the CB.

I like being out here in the boonies but one thing a barn has that I don't have is lots of vet and farrier visits and horse problems to learn from.


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## Zexious

Looking forward to seeing the next set!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I've been wanting to see Halla's x-rays. Those don't look nearly as scary as the one you posted as an example. With the disclaimer that I don't really know what I talk about half the time, with the care she is certainly sure to recieve, ski tip does not seem to be in the offing.
> 
> Gonna take a while to grow that hoof wall back down tight for certain.


Yes, in my mind the xrays were worse than they actually are. When I looked at the xrays in the moment, I was pretty stressed.
As a coping mechanism, I envision the worst so I am prepared, thinking I need to be able to deal with that. It's usually not as bad as I fear.

After this point, I never felt any heat or bounding pulses in the hooves, so I am hoping the bones stabilized around this point. 
At least in my mind I think I see a dark area in front of the hoof bones, which seems to indicate the hoof bones were connected nicely to the front of the hoof wall before they rotated. The soles had concavity prior to this occuring, but suddenly went flat. When I look at the xrays I can see how this must have happened as the bones rotated and pushed the sole down. But they have stayed flat and don't have any bulging or new changes so I hope that is a good sign, along with the fact Halla is more sound each day. 
I am going to bring the toes straight back some, even before the next xrays because I feel that can only help. 

The hooves look to me like they could have used a bit more heel to begin with, assuming everything was tight and connected before the laminitis. Some good things to know for the future.


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## Hondo

It would have been interesting to see where the frog apex was/is. Maybe a thumb tack next time? Also of interest would be a mark on the hairline for the relative distance of P3/P2 joint, although one can almost guess where that would be on the x-ray.

With that much flare in the dorsal aspect I would not think there was a tight connection all the way down prior to the episode. I'd bet, but of course don't know, that at least 1/3 was already pulled apart.

One thing I do know for certain, next trip to the vet, Hondo's gonna get fronts x-ray'd!!! (with a full set of markers including collateral groove)


----------



## gottatrot

Good idea to get xrays. I need to have Amore's hooves done too since she has Cushing's and is at high risk for laminitis. 

I put a red arrow on this xray to show where I think I see the "gas line" which is a dark shadow. Just like the space in the collateral grooves shows up darker due to the air in it, acute rotation will often show a dark shadow where there is space that hasn't filled in with material such as a laminar wedge. It is one way to think a horse might have acute separation rather than a slower process that happened over time. 










So looking at the gas line, you can imagine where the coffin bone probably sat before rotation.









Based on what I know of Halla's measurements of the bottom of the hoof at the time, this is pretty close to where her frog apex was and hairline.








I didn't see/feel flare in this hoof except at the very bottom, and when I draw lines I don't think there really was any. Until the bottom of the hoof past the coffin bone, the hoof wall matches where the coffin bone probably was. The bump at the top is the coronet band.








So I am feeling more that this was a very acute change, after studying the xrays more.
Today I trimmed 1/2 inch off the toe, just straight back and didn't touch anything on the bottom of the hoof (rounded off the hoof though). I would like to make a rocker as shown with the second red line, but I won't do that until I have another set of xrays, to be safe.








This is approximately the hoof now.









I don't believe in bad luck, but I was at the barn awhile tonight holding Sizzler for the vet. His owner is out of town, and guess what? He tore some flesh off the front of his back leg somehow during turnout today. It's almost like Murphy's law, "I'm going to ride this horse," means that horse will become lame. 

The vet said, "He's pretty good, I'll give him the usual dose and see how he does." That horse was the most sensitive to sedation I've ever seen. Both Halla and Amore get double dosed for teeth floating because a single dose doesn't even register. Sizzler almost fell down about 5 times. His knees were seriously buckling. I've been around a lot of sedated horses, and even when they've been very wobbly the vets have reassured me the horse is not going down. This time the vet was actually worried Sizzler was going down, and we had to keep making sharp sounds and finally he gave him an antidote to the sedation so it would wear off quicker. That just made him able to stand on four legs, but didn't even wake him up. Yikes.
Hopefully he will heal up quickly.

My friend with the horse with chronic laminitis is probably upset with me because she was asking me information about a place I'd boarded before as a possible place to leave her horse when she moves. They advertised as a place for "retired horses." I have heard there are some places that will give care to very sick and old horses when they retire, but we don't have anything remotely like that around here. 

In my opinion it would be far better for her horse to be put down than to be placed somewhere they can't watch over her several times a day. It's one thing to retire a healthy old horse to a nice boarding place, but not one that needs constant monitoring and hospital type care. I mean daily pain medication, soft places to lay undisturbed, people to notice worsening limping, and constant changing of hay nets, soaked food, etc. I told her I thought it would be sad if her horse was put down without her good friend of many years there to be with her. I heard secondhand that the vet came back to check on her horse and the owner was denying the horse was sore all over, and the vet told her since she sees the horse every day she has lost the ability to notice that her movement is abnormal. 

Well, she's not ready to hear anything like this, but I found a good article and I thought it was something I need to keep and think about since I have a horse with Cushing's myself and she is at risk for old age to give her more difficulties as time goes on. 
Euthanasia: Let?s Talk it Over | Horse Journal


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## gottatrot

Sorry, double post


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## Hondo

I just learned a bit about reading x-rays. I can see that perfectly now. Yep, don't think I'd want to do more without another x-ray and a marker on the frog so I'd know exactly where he coffin bone is. Plus as I'm writing, the thought occurred that as the CB de-rotates, maybe the tip of the CB will tend to move forward a little? Have no idea whether this happens or not.

Again, I know not, but it sure seems that what you did should assist in the hoof wall growing down tight.

When I said flare, I thought I was seeing some dish. Does a lamellar wedge show up on an x-ray?

Difficult to read that article without experiencing at least a little moistness.


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## gottatrot

Something I've been mulling over today...

It was brought to my mind from a thread discussing people's practices tying horses and also helping them get over separation anxiety. 
Some people call it "buddy sour," but I think a more accurate term is separation anxiety. Sour implies that the horse has a poor attitude or has been spoiled somehow. The term buddy seems to imply the horse just wants his friend there, somewhat like a kid who cries when his friend has to go home. But I think horses are not being spoiled children when they have separation anxiety. They are thinking like animals who depend on being in a group for their very survival. They have deeply rooted instincts triggering danger signals and releasing stress hormones in their bodies. 

"Danger, if you are on your own, you will have no natural defenses. The predators will hunt you down and kill you. You will have inadequate shelter from the cold. You will not be able to sleep because no one will be looking out for you."

Horses find it easy to revert back to this natural state. So why do some horse display this behavior and some do not? 

I was thinking about the differences in how horses are raised, and how this affects them along with their natural personality. Some horses are raised with being handled from a young foal. They are taught to be separated and to accept all kinds of handling and new situations by humans. Most of these horses respond to this handling by becoming easy to handle in all situations.

A small amount of these horses then seem to become over confident. Instead of just trusting people and feeling confident in new situations, they go a step farther and feel nothing can hurt them, and they begin to barge through fences, smashing into other horses, and need some very firm handling to be respectful. Without it they become bullies.

Yet some horses that are left in a more natural and unhandled state until older, either in a domestic herd situation or a feral situation also become horses that are confident in most settings. 

Why is it that some horses are coddled and face no dangers in life, yet remain fearful and always looking for things to happen? But on the other hand, some horses that are coddled and face no dangers in life become extremely confident, thinking nothing can ever hurt them?

Similarly, some horses that have lived in a feral state and faced real dangers and fending for themselves are especially confident when domesticated and trained, as though they've seen it all already and nothing can scare them. 

And some of these horses that have been out in the real world on their own keep looking around the corners for the bogey man, as if they are telling the other horses; "You don't know what's out there, but I've seen it. The world is a scary place and you have to keep your eyes open and be ready to run." 

Horse personalities are so interesting. I've seen all these variations of horses and keep wondering about it all.


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## Zexious

^That is really interesting! 
I don't have much experience with once-feral horses so I can't confirm or deny the claims with my own personal experience, but the hypothesis feels warranted! Is that just an excerpt from the article? 

I read an interesting study yesterday claiming that horses have the ability to not only distinguish human facial expressions, but also deduce meaning from it. 
The sample consisted of strictly lesson horses from a busy facility, but it would be interesting to see this study done with horses who have less face time with a variety of people.


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## Reds La Boop

I debated posting on this but, I loved the last two posts so I could not help myself. When you wonder and you watch It seems to be a puzzle. You are looking at how everything fits. The best way to learn if you ask me. Barn sour or buddy sour, it is anxiety that is for sure. We have areas where we turn a lot of horses out together. What is funny is to see the reaction when you bring one in. Lets say you have 3 geldings and 2 mares out together. The geldings are always after the attention of the mares. Mares will go the way the wind blows. Today it is one gelding and tomorrow another. It seems the pecking order of the geldings goes by who the mares choose for that day. If you bring one of the geldings in, they get a little peeved. I feel pretty sure that it put a crimp in that geldings place in the pecking order. I ignore it and just start their work.

I may have read the same study on the facial expressions. The one I read, they used blown up pictures of humans with different expressions. I also know there was a study done on horses facial expressions. I know the Professor who headed up that study. I send her pictures of different expressions on horses we see here. We have to do that through Email as she is in the UK.
It seems the more I learn about horses, I understand just how little I know. They are fascinating beings.


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## gottatrot

Reds La Boop said:


> The geldings are always after the attention of the mares. Mares will go the way the wind blows. Today it is one gelding and tomorrow another. It seems the pecking order of the geldings goes by who the mares choose for that day.


Yes, it seems funny to me that the geldings are always so optimistic. My mare, Amore is the worst. She will one day choose a gelding and give him her full and undivided attention. That boy will be so thrilled and think they are going to be best friends for life. The next morning he wants to pick up where they left off, and she'll look at him like "Who are you?" Then the poor gelding is so disappointed. He will keep trying throughout the day to renew their friendship and Amore will treat him like dirt. 

Halla always acts like she despises geldings but they interest her very much. Without them she'd have no excuse to guard her favorite mare friends and push them away from the geldings. The poor geldings are always in trouble, and she always acts like everything is their fault. A mare will go up to the fence and sniff noses with a gelding, and Halla will lash out at the gelding, punishing him for it. She never gets mad at the mares for instigating it all.


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## Hondo

Interesting. The ranch has mares and geldings mixed on a 24/7 basis. I have never observed that. I'll start watching. I did bring two mares, one in heat as it turned out, into the field with Hondo when Rimmey (the dominant gelding) was here. Rimmey, who is normally a good buddy with Hondo, charged him anytime he even looked in the direction of the mares, who Rimmey kept with him. Actually, the one mare as it turns out seeks Rimmey when in heat. And she is a 32 YO!

One young 3 YO filly that has been part of the herd since birth was taken out for a month due to injuries. When turned back out the herd attacked her and would not let her in the herd for several days, as I was told. I need to ask what her mom said about that as she is the lead mare. That filly is a full sister to Dragon who I'm training to pack. Finally got his fronts trimmed fairly good yesterday. Took him ponying for about three miles yesterday right after the trim and he didn't present any complaints.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

How is Halla doing?


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> @gottatrot
> How is Halla doing?


Halla is doing great. Thank you for asking!

She is maintaining weight on her current diet. She's eating about 13 lbs of orchard grass/timothy hay, 6.5 lbs of the Natural Haystacks pellets (which are a blend of beet pulp, alfalfa, timothy, flaxseed, canola oil and rice bran), and 1/2 lb beet pulp. She's also getting probios, Equishure, a senior multivitamin and Vitamin E.

She's been wearing the Cloud boots 24/7. I'd recommend them for anyone with a horse with laminitis. They are labeled for light turnout but she has been cantering around the field in them for the past several days and they stay on well. I'm getting an appointment very soon to redo xrays and trim. When I walked her around without the boots several days ago she appeared sound but was tender when harder surfaces came in contact with her hooves. 

Sizzler's leg injury is healing up very well. Cooper is back to normal and as far as I know he will be coming back to the barn soon so my friend can continue her lease. It's still not completely clear whether he had rhabdomyolysis or some other issue. The owner said the antibiotics seemed to help the most for some reason, so perhaps he had an infection brewing that along with exercise put him into rhabdo. 

I had a very good talk with my friend this week regarding her horse with chronic laminitis. The horse is doing a little better with Equioxx daily, and I saw the xrays of her hooves. Her soles are only 1mm thick in places. The coffin bones are in the same place they were several years ago, but there is more loss of sole and coffin bone remodeling. Probably because she did not provide hoof protection. The horse was living on soft sand, so it wasn't obvious that the horse needed protection all the time, but now she knows.

She is going to get boots for the horse to wear 24/7 and it sounds like my worries over her leaving the horse in someone else's care were unfounded. Apparently she's going to stay with the horse while her husband does his temporary rotatation elsewhere, and a lot of the information she was gathering was to convince him that she can't just leave the horse. She is not willing to put the horse down until she feels the horse is at that point. Which I do see the horse perk up and look very happy when her owner is there, and I believe this horse's reason for living is her bond with her owner. Although the horse does lie down for hours each day. So I'm very glad she's not trying to leave the horse, and also is willing to stay for these last months of the horse's life even if it means her husband relocates without her.

I've been riding vicariously through other riders' photos online. Nala's rider has been having some amazingly beautiful rides.


























When I saw this photo I asked, "What's that between her hooves...magic?"


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## gottatrot

*Horse Families*

Tonight I am reading an article in Equus magazine which is an excerpt from a new book called "_Equus Lost?_" Sounds like one I am going to have to buy. 
https://www.amazon.com/Equus-Lost-Misunderstand-Horse-Human-Relationship-Plus/dp/157076798X

I've thought some about how we create an unnatural environment for horses, and that they are forced to adapt to it. I haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about horse families. The article says, "Most horses in our society have no family ties or family-like groups in their living habitat and do not grow up together." That really struck me. We treat most of our other pets like this, cats and dogs. I haven't really thought much about how unnatural it is to separate animals from their families.

I was realizing that Amore, who is one of the least adaptable horses I know, was raised with her mother and sister. She lived on a small farm until about age 12. So the human equivalent would be for someone to live in a house in a small, quiet neighborhood until age 40, in a house with their mother and sister. Then take that person, separate them from their family and move them to the middle of a big city. Probably most people wouldn't adapt very well. After that sudden, massive shift in her world, why wouldn't she expect other massive changes to come without warning? Why wouldn't she always keep an eye out just in case?

People at boarding facilities often want to separate my horses because of how other horses do or don't get along. They might want to put Amore with an older gelding because she won't pick on him, and because Halla might defend herself from the horse that was doing the picking. My husband has protested this, saying our two horses should get to stay together. He's not a horse person, so I've thought he was being too sensitive and there was really no harm in swapping the horses around to different fields. But really, when I think about it and after reading this article, Amore and Halla have been together for a few years now and have formed family-like ties. They should stay together if at all possible, and not be subjected to traumatic changes in their herd dynamics. 

The article also talks about how our lack of understanding horse intelligence means we value only certain human-preferred traits and don't recognize traits that are valuable to the horse. This I have thought a lot about in the past. When I believe my horse is less valuable because she is spooky, she might actually have a trait that is more valuable to her survival, such as being alert to her surroundings and noticing danger in time to escape an attack. A horse might be less quick to pick up on the cause and effect of a cue/reward we are teaching, but be a genius at figuring out how to put down his hooves perfectly in rough ground and not twisting a limb or injuring himself. As with humans, I believe some horses are more gifted kinetically or have amazingly well tuned senses, or be emotionally intuitive toward others. All of these things are intelligence, not just the ability to learn how to perform a trick in the show ring.


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## egrogan

Those photos of Nala are glorious. And I think the answer to your question is "yes!" :wink:


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## Hondo

Great news all around. Question: How are you managing the moisture with the 24/7 boots? For thrush and so on. Do you treat them with something? I'm supposing you do.

Edit: Just read the article and ordered the book.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Great news all around. Question: How are you managing the moisture with the 24/7 boots? For thrush and so on. Do you treat them with something? I'm supposing you do.
> 
> Edit: Just read the article and ordered the book.


Let me know what you think of the book, I'm going to get it too.

Yes, I have been putting No Thrush powder in the central sulcus and sides of the frog each night. That seems to be doing a good job of keeping things dry. The frogs look good. Nothing seems to get inside these boots, even when I swipe out the inside each day they only have a little bit of hair that has shed off the pasterns and fallen down inside. I've heard to rinse them daily, but I haven't done that because it seems they would take too long to dry out. I don't know why the outer hoof wall would need to be clean, and the sole and frog are covered by the pad, which stays clean. 
There were a couple small rubs to the backs of the heel bulbs in the first several days, but I discovered that what I needed to do was take out the insert pads and do some trimming. Halla's hooves have left an impression of her hoof on the pads. I trimmed around the outside of the hoof impression so it fit her hoof perfectly, and the rub marks were gone the next day.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I have been putting No Thrush powder in the central sulcus and sides of the frog each night. That seems to be doing a good job of keeping things dry. The frogs look good. Nothing seems to get inside these boots,


This is really good information for those needing to boot their horses on turnout. Most seem to advise against it but apparently without trying it. Very glad and am certain that will speed the hoof correction and should go a ways I'd think in protecting the impacts on the circumflex arteries.

I'm still riding Hondo in boots and just set up to try something new. I've been soaking his feet in dilute Lysol periodically but since @lightening; farrier uses CS powder after moistening the bottom of the foot with glue ons, I bought some CS powder and a salt shaker. He is in and out of water on every ride so that way he'll get a little treatment on the ride and I'll get out of soaking. Win win.

The book appeals to me as we have two small families here on the ranch. Two mothers with there two off spring, on filly and one gelding each. And the families do stick very much together.

I tried keeping Wisdom, a three year old from one family, in here with Hondo for company. Wisdom was just so wild to get back to his family that after three days I turned him back out with the herd. He was not wild with me or anything, just running the fence frantically anytime he smelled the herd.

Dragon is from one of the families but seems pretty content. He is so people friendly may be part of it. And older. But still when he visually sees his mom and little sis, he wants out.

As the grass starts coming and I can mostly stop feeding hay, I'm thinking about bringing the rest of the family in for a while to see what happens. Mom is the lead mare of the herd so that'll be interesting to see what changes take place in the herd.

PS: I agree with your husband.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Reds La Boop said:


> I debated posting on this but, I loved the last two posts so I could not help myself. When you wonder and you watch It seems to be a puzzle. You are looking at how everything fits. The best way to learn if you ask me. Barn sour or buddy sour, it is anxiety that is for sure. We have areas where we turn a lot of horses out together. What is funny is to see the reaction when you bring one in. Lets say you have 3 geldings and 2 mares out together. The geldings are always after the attention of the mares. Mares will go the way the wind blows. Today it is one gelding and tomorrow another. It seems the pecking order of the geldings goes by who the mares choose for that day. If you bring one of the geldings in, they get a little peeved. I feel pretty sure that it put a crimp in that geldings place in the pecking order. I ignore it and just start their work.
> 
> I may have read the same study on the facial expressions. The one I read, they used blown up pictures of humans with different expressions. I also know there was a study done on horses facial expressions. I know the Professor who headed up that study. I send her pictures of different expressions on horses we see here. We have to do that through Email as she is in the UK.
> It seems the more I learn about horses, I understand just how little I know. They are fascinating beings.


 @gottatrot and @Reds La Boop I'd be interested on both your takes on our particular situation; I am told it is unusual. We have a small herd. Five geldings and one mare in her 20's. One of the geldings is the son of the mare. Over the three and a half years Oliver has been here, with every mix he has ever been in (we have the only significant rock free pasture around so neighbors and friends were bringing their horses to stay with us) Oliver is the man. Mares, geldings, TB, QH's, it doesn't matter. Even when I put him into my trainer's mixed herd of 13 horses, within a few moments, he had taken over. No violence, no nastiness, it just was and it was done.

Bella, our mare has eyes only for Oliver and ignores the rest of the geldings completely. It was the same with my neighbor's mares. They completely ignored the rest of the geldings and surrounded Oliver like one would expect might happen in a stallion-mare harem, except he dictated when they went to water, where and when they went to the shade of the trees, when they grazed...the whole kit-n-caboodle. 

Do you think this is a product of some messed up human intervention or have you seen this happen before where a gelding is treated like a stud and also handed over leadership of the entire herd? I'm trying to figure out why my observations are so different from what is "normal".


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Do you think this is a product of some messed up human intervention or have you seen this happen before where a gelding is treated like a stud and also handed over leadership of the entire herd? I'm trying to figure out why my observations are so different from what is "normal".


Interesting. What I'm wondering is if he was being seen as a stallion, or like a leading horse/perhaps more like a mare? Was he driving the other horses or leading the other horses? If he was driving, then perhaps this stallion-like behavior was submitted to because the other horses have the instinct to be driven by a stallion. But if he was leading, that is more of a mare-like behavior I believe.

This article I've thought interesting - it says that horses seem to follow whatever other horses initiate leadership of the group. So that can be any horse, however I wonder if some horses are self-confident and just take that role on themselves far more often than others. Maybe these horses are the ones we see and it reinforces our idea of "lead mare." But really any horse can or could take on this role if they wished, but perhaps the others are politely letting the one who prefers to lead have the job most often.

It makes sense to me though, that in a herd of prey animals any horse should be able to sound the alarm and all the other horses will take off. Kind of like prairie dogs...whoever alarms that there is danger will be listened to. The horses don't ask, "Where is the lead mare?" before running after the horse that spotted the threat.
Busting the ?lead mare? myth | EQUUS Magazine
All of this reinforces my experiences: I've never had a horse (or dog) that I had submit to me one day and decided I was completely in control from then on and they never questioned anything I said ever again. I've always felt that I had to be the leader (trustworthy, good decision maker, fair, kind) every single day, and to daily earn trust and keep it. Trust builds over time, and gets much stronger as the friendship goes. That goes both ways, as I trust my horses to behave in certain ways when I know them well. 

***********************************************************************************************
My friend had a foal today. Cute little dun filly.
https://flic.kr/p/SoDSMr
***********************************************************************************************
Here's an article I found interesting from Scienceofmotion.com written from the horse's perspective:


> Where we really don’t need your help is when your so-called aids and theories are confusing our senses. I remember my former rider had so many cues for a single canter departure that I had to preserve my sanity by shutting off my brain and guessing which lead I was supposed to pick up. It was like the check list of a Boeing 767. It was shifts of his body weight, one hand lifting, the other moving forward, one leg back, the other at the girth and he was moving his upper body and turning his head, plus a tap of the whip. I have naturally no problem with the canter but this complex preparation annoyed me and I started anticipating the canter departure. I know that a note accompanied me when I came here, saying, “difficulties with the canter departure.” He prepared my physique for the canter, exerted a minuscule pressure with the calf of his inside leg and I picked up the canter. He patted me saying, “I guess, you learned the canter departure from the inside leg” I did not, I learned from a confusing network of stimuli. He prepared my physique and when I was ready for the canter and I felt a very discreet a simple cue. It was so obvious and so simple.


Guessing Game


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## gottatrot

Something else I wanted to mention: If any of you have facebook, there is a great group called "As Seen Through Horses' Ears."
People post photos and videos of themselves riding in various places all around the world from Africa to Iceland and New Zealand. It's incredible to think about how everywhere around the world people are riding in these beautiful places every day.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Interesting. What I'm wondering is if he was being seen as a stallion, or like a leading horse/perhaps more like a mare? Was he driving the other horses or leading the other horses?


Thank you for both of those articles. To answer your question he does both. Sometimes he'll drive them and sometimes they just follow him.


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## Hondo

The herd of 17 here at the ranch has a dominant gelding. He has had that status for most of his life. He was born here and is now approaching 30. His dominance is seen when a flake of hay is placed in the herd. Others may begin to eat but as he approaches everyone just melts away. He just sort of ambles over without any threat but everyone leaves just the same.

But he never drives as a stallion. In fact I've never observed any driving by any horse in the herd.

There is a lead mare that does the majority of leading the herd from grazing area to water to grazing area. But not always. There are various geldings that will for some reason just amble off with the clear intention of going somewhere and after a couple or three decide to follow the entire herd follows.

There are some gentle minded mares that others tend to hang around sometimes but I haven't seen any of those actually leading the entire herd. That's always the lead mare or a higher up gelding, except for the dominant gelding whom I've never seen lead. He seems to trail the herd more like a stallion. But he was gelded early.

.............

Sometimes when riding Hondo I will shift my weight or do something a certain way and he will just stop immediately and look back as if to say, What? I don't know what I do but it feels like it is a cue that he has learned in the past. I just don't know what it is yet.

Interesting to think about what it would be like to carry a light rider on our backs and performing at their direction through non verbal cues. It'd not be very easy I think.


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## gottatrot

I think horse societies are very complex and we try to over simplify them into basic concepts we can understand.
My thoughts are that there are many factors at play when it comes to who follows or listens to whom. Some of it probably has to do with age, some with family ties, some with gender, and some with experiences horses have had with similar individuals. Some also might have to do with size and physical bearing. But I think personality plays a huge part too.

Perhaps Oliver is such a well rounded individual, in touch with all sides of his character, that other horses recognize his innate leadership qualities. Humans are often drawn to people as leaders, and some of these types develop their own cults based on their personalities that can easily win over susceptible people. Maybe as a well rounded horse, Oliver has learned to use both strategies that stallions and mares use to guide and manage other horses. Somehow he taught himself that he could be a leader, and perhaps he feels happy or secure in that role. 

One thing I've thought about is that I don't think horses are always trying to get a different role in the herd. Humans often assume that a horse that doesn't get to eat first or is more on the outskirts is unhappy, but I think sometimes horses choose these roles for themselves rather than get forced into them. Maybe sometimes being the supportive horse feels as good to the horse as it does to be the leader.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> One thing I've thought about is that I don't think horses are always trying to get a different role in the herd. Humans often assume that a horse that doesn't get to eat first or is more on the outskirts is unhappy, but I think sometimes horses choose these roles for themselves rather than get forced into them. Maybe sometimes being the supportive horse feels as good to the horse as it does to be the leader.


I know that Cowboy does not desire to take a leadership role, but he doesn't want to be bottom either. He is perfectly fine where he is. Take away the higher ranking members and make him leader for a day and he is one stressed out horse!


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## knightrider

When I went to buy my daughter a pony, I went to look at a gelding that seemed like a good fit. He was the smallest one in his herd and very underweight. When I asked the owner why he was so thin and the others were not, she said that the others chased him away from all the hay piles. So I asked her to throw out some hay so I could see it. I liked the pony (loved the pony is more like it--would die if I didn't get him) and wanted to check out the owner's story. Sure enough, no matter where the hay piles were, several of the horses made a point to keep him away from all hay.

So I bought the pony and brought him home. I didn't have to worry about hay piles because we had 40 acres of lush grass and he would have plenty to eat. Summer and winter because it was Florida.

Here's the really odd part. From the minute the pony set foot on my property, he made himself the boss. He was still the smallest horse . . . and the youngest . . . and the newcomer, but he wouldn't take any bossing from any of my other horses. My boss mare immediately deferred to him, as did my geldings.

He's now the oldest horse--we've had him a long time, and he's never let any horse get the upper hoof on him. He doesn't kick, bite, or lunge at the other horses, but they all defer to him. If he walks over to a pile of hay (we moved and now have to feed hay), they immediately walk away. They stay out of his way too, except his one bosom friend, who is allowed to groom him and swish flies for him. Those two are best friends, but our pony is the boss. It seemed like he said, "I let the others beat me up and boss me, and I will NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN AGAIN!


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## gottatrot

My friends have a horse like this too. He was thin and wormy, and my friend felt sorry for him and bought him. He was kept in a large herd and the horses had to fight for their food, and he was the one that didn't get any. When he got to my friend's property, he decided he was not going to take that anymore and ever since then he's been the one who tells the others when the water trough is available and he gets first choice of the hay. 

I think horses have situational awareness and can reflect about past experiences. They can make decisions that change how they behave and respond to their environment. 
This is Booker, and he lets his opinion be known nowadays. If you ride up into his space, he will lift a hoof and tell your horse to back off.


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## Hondo

@knightrider & @gottatrot Great stories!

I am in the middle of a story waiting to see how it turns out.

Hondo has been mostly at the bottom of the herd. Dragon, the 5 yo gelding now in the 60 acres with Hondo, has been at the really really rock bottom of the herd. He had about four really large scars from bites and some smaller that I wasn't sure would ever heal over. But they have at least to the extent that there is finally hair coming out on the worst of them.

Well, Hondo has just exalted over Dragon. Would not stand for Dragon to come near me. Or food. I put a tub far enough away that it was inconvenient for Hondo to go run Dragon off as Dragon would just soon saunter over to Hondo's tub to eat.

On and on. I've been watching them out by themselves in the field. Dragon is very persistent. With both Hondo and I. Hondo has acted very vicious toward Dragon with threats of bites or kicks but has never actually done either. Dragon, I think, has figured this out and has become more persistent. Over the last few months I have seen the distance between them while grazing steadily reduce.

Not sure it'll happen by then, but by July they may be swishing flies for one another. For my own self interest, that would make me very happy. I'm deeply drawn to both, but Hondo IS my Horse. I suspect sometimes that he suspects otherwise. I have to be certain that he knows.

It's just that Dragon is just so people friendly and persistent while Hondo is a little more reserved but a real steady Eddy but needing some reassurance without asking. Asking being no problem for Dragon.

I understand that a horse is a horse of course, but the more I relate to them as people, the more like people they "seem" to become. In limited ways to be sure, but still..........


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## Reds La Boop

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> @gottatrot and @Reds La Boop I'd be interested on both your takes on our particular situation; I am told it is unusual. We have a small herd. Five geldings and one mare in her 20's. One of the geldings is the son of the mare. Over the three and a half years Oliver has been here, with every mix he has ever been in (we have the only significant rock free pasture around so neighbors and friends were bringing their horses to stay with us) Oliver is the man. Mares, geldings, TB, QH's, it doesn't matter. Even when I put him into my trainer's mixed herd of 13 horses, within a few moments, he had taken over. No violence, no nastiness, it just was and it was done.
> 
> Bella, our mare has eyes only for Oliver and ignores the rest of the geldings completely. It was the same with my neighbor's mares. They completely ignored the rest of the geldings and surrounded Oliver like one would expect might happen in a stallion-mare harem, except he dictated when they went to water, where and when they went to the shade of the trees, when they grazed...the whole kit-n-caboodle.
> 
> Do you think this is a product of some messed up human intervention or have you seen this happen before where a gelding is treated like a stud and also handed over leadership of the entire herd? I'm trying to figure out why my observations are so different from what is "normal".


In my experience that behavior will change around. Women oops I mean mares change without warning. A strange thing in my largest pasture just now is that they all are independent. Been going on for about a week. I feel like they may be watching the news.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My trainer suggested that he has never seen anything like Oliver and his ability to just walk up and take over all of them. At one point he was discussing it with a group of other pros and one of them suggested that there are some horses that are just given a position because of who they apparently are, rather than what they have proven. There was a phrase that trainer used and I can't for the life of me remember it. It went beyond Charisma...

Speaking of males and females. One of my neighbors took her mare to breed to a Friesian (live cover). She was there for two months and wanted nothing to do with that stud or two others she was offered and wouldn't go into cycle the second month. Frustrated, she brings the mare home. Brings her down to our pasture and within minutes, was displaying and letting Oliver mount her (no my neighbor didn’t mind and was actually laughing about it when I asked if she wanted me to separate them). Neighbor suggested he was quite the Cowboy Cassanova.

Just for giggles!


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## gottatrot

Oliver sounds like a Cowboy Casanova all right. 

Yesterday I was quite pleased because I took Halla's boots off and took her with Amore for a little walk over to a field behind the barn. Halla was stomping around very un-carefully, and at least on the grass you'd never know she had been unsound. I am going to keep the boots on until week after next, which is the earliest the vet can come by to do repeat x-rays. I'm only keeping the hooves balanced but am leaving a little extra hoof wall, and am bringing the breakover straight back without taking any off the bottom. It's too long to go without any trimming until the vet can come, but I'm leaving extra hoof so we can make adjustments based on what we see.

I have a new theory, which is that horse with hind gut acidosis might often show a tucked up abdomen. 
















This is how Halla always looked, which made her appear thinner than she was. I've noticed lately that she is letting her belly hang down loosely, and I believe whether fat or thin, horses should have a belly that looks relaxed and hanging down in the flank area. I am guessing this can be a sign of proper fermentation going on/normal PH meaning comfortable and relaxed abdominal muscles.


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## Hondo

In the second picture the horse's eyes and mouth even look "tucked" up. Looks like Halla's weight problem has been solved.


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## horseluvr2524

Glad to hear Halla is doing so much better. And I'm really excited for you that she took to her new diet, and so quickly too! I am very curious as to why it worked this time and not in the past? Maybe just because of persistence this time around?

The first picture is a good reference for me, not in regards to acidity but Vitamin E! Both horses, but Shan much more so than Belle, are showing some slightly sunken in hindquarters (on the sides, not the top). I'd wager that V.E. will make a noticeable difference. Sam's and Costco both have great prices on it too (thanks for the idea on using human supplements for V.E.)

I think it's an interesting coincidence that both Halla's and Shan's lameness seems to have resolved around the same time of year. I can't tell you what a weight it is off my mind to finally have Shan looking normal again, after almost a year of being off and just not quite right (all started with kicking the fence at a gelding repeatedly. Ugh!). Awesome that I get to be happy for you and Halla as well now!

Oh, and tell Nala's rider hi for me, and that I'm a bit envious of her and where she gets to ride. That picture of the sky reflected on the sand has to be one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> And I'm really excited for you that she took to her new diet, and so quickly too! I am very curious as to why it worked this time and not in the past? Maybe just because of persistence this time around?


So glad to hear Shan is doing so well. I'll be interested to hear about what you observe with the Vitamin E. 

I wish I knew why Halla has been eating feeds she never would before. I can't say it's persistence, because I gave it a good solid go at least twice, meaning I kept it up for a couple of months despite a lot of weight loss. Until my nerves couldn't take it anymore. 

What I can say is that I never tried switching Halla to forages only at the same time that I added probiotics and hind gut buffering (Equishure/sodium bicarb). 
Every time I read about a condition or problem I pick up something new, and the other day reading an article about hind gut acidosis, one part stuck out to me. Suddenly I understood that what it was saying was that the acidic environment is necessary to digest grain, but this is _at odds_ with the less acidic environment needed to digest roughage. So apparently the body can't digest both well, and it chooses to adapt to the grain digestion over the roughage digestion. 

So all this time I've been puzzling over why I've had to feed so much grain, and why she doesn't seem to get enough calories from her hay. I assumed there had been some kind of damage done to her intestines from being starved, and assumed it was permanent. But now I am believing that she was never able to digest the hay properly because her gut was too acidic and didn't have the proper environment to ferment the hay. 

I suspect Halla is smart enough to not just choose feed based on taste, but also on what digests well. At least I know for myself I can tell when things do not digest easily and cause discomfort. And I avoid eating them most of the time. 

I'm wondering if it is difficult for a horse to adapt their intestines back from an acidic environment on their own, and so after feeding grain, roughage remains difficult to digest. A little help from the probiotics and PH buffering might start the body's process of adapting to digesting roughage better. I tried feeding probiotics in the past but I think I only did several days of the syringe type and then tried a powdered form which required many scoops and Halla didn't eat it. My current probios powder is a small amount and I've been syringing it in each day.

Either way it seems to become a cycle: 
Thin horse/acidic gut/more grain fed/doesn't digest hay as well/discomfort eating/doesn't eat as much hay/remains thin/keeps getting grain/acidic gut.

Versus: less acidic gut/more comfortable eating roughage/eats more hay/digests hay/gains weight/gut becomes less acidic.

It makes me wonder how many hard keepers out there are in this cycle. There are a lot of OTTB's that are pretty much hard keepers for life, and I have to wonder if they started on this cycle when young and fed high grain diets, and never were adapted to digesting roughage again.


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## Hondo

This was the first time you used Equishure, right? Or no?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> This was the first time you used Equishure, right? Or no?


I fed Equishure for several months when Halla had ulcers several years ago. However, I was still feeding grain products so potentially it was treating the acidic gut and helping keep the lining intact, but probably didn't help with addressing the digestive issues. Then once I stopped feeding it, the gut must have gone more acidic again due to the diet.
***********************************************
I am feeling a little guilty because I was asked to go look at a horse for sale with a friend tomorrow. However, after her own assessment, my critique and some other input, my friend thinks she is not serious about buying the horse. She is still going to go look, just in case she's missing something, but I begged out of going. I want to help her avoid problems, but the horse is near Seattle and that's an all day trip so I'd rather not go all the way up there if it's probably window shopping. 

For what she is going to do with the horse, he might be just fine. However, my bias is that a horse should first be athletic and able. Plus, having ridden Halla for awhile now I'd not advise someone to buy a horse with choppy gaits. This boy seems extremely well tempered, a solidly built draft cross. Beyond that, he is very cute. However, you can see in his videos that he has a long back and downhill build, not much angulation and is choppy. He seems difficult to keep in a canter and they never show transitions so I assume they are quite rough. He is 14, and they're asking $6,500 and I think that price is more than double what he is worth. 
*********************************************
Another thread talks about if some horses are genetically crazy. I have a difficult time believing in crazy. But perhaps that's because I think my horses are wonderful, and if I thought some horses were crazy, what would I think about the incomparable Amore?

Today was very rainy and windy, with gusts around 45-50 mph and wetness blowing from every direction. Due to my eternal optimism, I have tried for the past couple weeks to get spring to come by saying, "It's spring," and abandoning putting blankets on the horses. This has brought on prolonged periods of hail, rain and flooding. Also the horses have been quite soaked by each evening.

Due to all the rain, some of the sand has washed out of the horses' night pens. Under the sand is hard plastic grid for stabilization, and some of this has been peeking through. Making things worse, the gutters around the barn are full of debris, so this has made the water pour down in spots and wash more sand away. Since Halla has thin soles right now, I want her off hard footing. So tonight I decided to clean the gutters above the stalls and put more sand in the pens.

I brought a chair into Amore's run and stood on it, taking out handfuls of the rotting leaves from the gutter. When I threw them on the ground, they went "splat." Amore was eating about ten feet away. 

There are three runs attached with Amore on one end, Halla in the center and Rebel, the QH on the other end. 
Rebel thought I could throw the leaves down on her head or back if I wanted. She didn't care whatsoever. Halla was moderately alert, watching to see what I was doing. 
Amore was achieving a four beat gallop in her approx 12x24 foot run. Gallop-gallop-turn on the haunches. Gallop-gallop-full stop.
Spin, repeat. 
For a moment I admired how agile that little mare is. She wasn't running into anything or slipping, just achieving feats of athleticism.

I moved the chair into a corner of the pen, went and got the horses' halters and led both my mares around the corner of the barn, into the storm and tied them outside. Immediately they were both calm, heads down, docile. They waited patiently while I scooped out the gutters, went up the hill with a wheelbarrow for some sand, and resurfaced their runs. Then I put them both in to eat their dinner.

While my mare does not behave like the others, here she was quite anxious and still was avoiding harming herself and also was avoiding the person standing on a chair in a small space...while bolting around. In my mind she is obviously not "insane," but just has a very low threshold for fear and flight. Over time she has learned to calm down very quickly once the source of her fear is removed or she adapts to it. I saw no reason to work with her on having gutters cleaned while she was in the pen. It wasn't necessary, and I've never seen an ad that says, "Horse for sale, tolerates gutter cleaning, clips, ties, loads."


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> "Horse for sale, tolerates gutter cleaning, clips, ties, loads."


:rofl: Priceless.


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## gottatrot

First I have to say I am celebrating the Daylight Savings time change. I know some states like Arizona don't go through it. For me, being a night worker it makes a huge difference in my life. Finally, when I get up in the afternoon I'll see the sun for more than an hour or two and I'll have more time to hang out and play with the horses outside of the barn in the daylight. 

Today the vet came to check on Halla's progress and take hoof xrays. It was great to hear her say she was very pleased with how things are going. Basically a horse that was in danger of either dying or ending up very compromised is now on track to full recovery. 

It has been six weeks since the last xrays. The not so good news is that the first xrays were done a week after Halla's first lame step, and there was a little more rotation that happened probably in the next several days after the xrays before she stabilized. The two or three days after the vet came were the days Halla's hooves seemed the most painful, and I was giving Bute then.

The good news is that Halla is walking soundly now without the Cloud boots on, the hooves are completely stabilized and she has added sole depth under the coffin bone. The realigning trim will take many months, but the dangerous part is over. 

The vet said the trimming I've been doing is just right. Apparently a common issue is that farriers forget the hoof has to grow down realigned and we can't trim it into alignment. So they will drop the heel thinking that will put the coffin bone at a better angle, but this actually delays reattachment because the toe is less steep. I need to keep bringing the toe back to the mapping and keeping the heels back with a flat landing zone but only taking small increments off of the heel height. That way the steeper toe and correct breakover will create the attachment at the top of the hoof, and then I just have to keep that correct breakover as the hoof grows down over the months.

Here are the xrays. The old ones from 6 weeks ago are on the left, and the new ones on the right. The left hooves are on top, and I flipped the images so the hooves are facing the same way.









I am encouraged that the hooves are less long and slightly steeper, and that the coffin bone angle is about the same despite further rotation, so there has been a little progress. But the added sole depth after rotation is crucial. 
The vet says after a couple more months I can start gradually working her again. She thinks the turnout she is getting and free exercise will only help the hoof circulation and aid healing. More sole depth will be added by a couple more months, and even though the coffin bone won't yet be realigned the laminae should be healed enough and there should be no inflammation to compromise the attachment.

What was really great was to hear the vet say she thought Halla looked happy, and she really did. She seemed rather pleased with herself and posed with her hooves up on the wooden blocks with a lot of patience. Last time I think we had cooperation just because she was in too much pain to run off, but this time she was working with us consciously and helpfully. That is Halla in a good and happy mood for sure. 

Here is a picture of her from last summer when she was getting a lot more calories, and today. I couldn't even see her ribs when she was all wet and her coat slicked down from the rain.









I also notice she has an appetite lately, and puts her head down to graze right away when I bring her out instead of looking around everywhere for awhile before thinking about eating. That's new for her.
Then there's the other one, Amore who really looks like a pony in her Cushing's winter coat.


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## gottatrot

Nala's rider has been going out with her Friesian friend. They got caught again by a pro photographer. (I think this is the link to photo on the site - it is what Nala's rider shared.)

I'm happy to see their photos and videos, looking forward to going out with them again soon, and just feel pleased and contented in general that I have my two mares and the hope of great rides again soon. Riding is not everything, or even most everything. It is incredible to ride, it's part of my soul, and I crave it. But I also crave everything else about horses too, even seeing beautiful photos and imagining what it felt like to ride on the beach today.

Here are their latest two videos, taken from the Friesian's perspective.
http://vid779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/gottatrot1/17336176_1474385472591864_7678874726034309120_n_zpsqa7i8yjr.mp4

http://vid779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/gottatrot1/17279805_282764222157621_5050883816428666880_n_zpsj0eknarj.mp4


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## Hondo

Halla-looya!

Would it be possible or ok for Amore to go on some just walking rides? Or best left in retirement?

Awesome beach pics! To be younger with better knees! That looks like so much fun!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Would it be possible or ok for Amore to go on some just walking rides? Or best left in retirement?


I'm not against sitting on her and walking around one of the fields. But her hind end just doesn't seem strong anymore. I think she might have arthritis in one or both of her hocks. Flat ground and smooth ground shouldn't be too difficult. 

Here's Nala enjoying some splashing yesterday. We've had a lot of rain and a big puddle has collected below the hill in the pasture. Nala loves playing in water. Halla on the right is trying to figure out what's so fun about it. She says, "OK, I'll try it and see what that's all about." Amore on the left is staying far away from any water. She's a desert horse.
http://vid779.photobucket.com/albums/yy80/gottatrot1/videoplayback%201_zps0cghig9b.mp4


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## horseluvr2524

Yay! Why don't we have a 'love' button? :happydance:

It's amazing to me how the Friesian did not get upset when Nala took off at a gallop down the beach. However, then I have to consider that these horses have much more room to gallop and let off steam.

Oregon is still so breathtakingly beautiful.


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## Hondo

Working on a trail yesterday and ran into an Arizona creature. I wanna post it somewhere so I'll just go completely off topic and post it on not my journal.

A cell phone pic.


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## gottatrot

Wow, really amazing. Is that a Gila monster? How big was it?
Maybe I've said this before, but when we were in Arizona last fall I kept finding out how different the creatures and plants are. In OR, the plants are mostly soft and feathery, so I kept mindlessly brushing up against plants in the desert and getting cut or poked by them. I hadn't realized it was my habit to go through the sides of plants rather than give them space.


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## Hondo

Ha ha. I learned right away, as most outdoors people do, to not brush up against anything in Arizona.

Yes, that's a Gila Monster. About 2 feet long. Almost looks like rock art on it's back. Kind of pretty. I was just reading about them and they are a protected species in Arizona. I think that's the third one I've seen in 3 years. And I'm out there a lot.

I have read that desert biodiversity is much much greater than mountainous regions. I found that surprising.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> In OR, the plants are mostly soft and feathery, so I kept mindlessly brushing up against plants in the desert and getting cut or poked by them. I hadn't realized it was my habit to go through the sides of plants rather than give them space.


I had the same experience in Florida, where _everything_ is pokey. I never realized how much of the foliage up here is soft and easily brushed aside and how I do that without even thinking about it.

@Hondo that is a great picture. I would be very glad to not be seeing many of those!! I will stop whining about the deer and turkeys I run across here..


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13 Not to worry. They don't chase and if they did you could outrun them on your hands and knees. I kept getting closer until about 20 feet and he started sticking his tongue out to smell. I decided he was alerted so I did not stress him more by getting closer.

They are venomous but a person would have to try to catch one bare handed to get bitten. I like seeing them. But, well, I think rattlesnakes are kinda cool too.


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## gottatrot

It feels like spring has sprung here in Oregon. My sister and I went running with the dogs in the rain yesterday, and she told me she thought the winter had been wetter than usual. It hadn't seemed so rainy to me, just maybe a little colder than usual. But it turns out we've had 26 more inches of rain this year than average...76 inches since October 1st, which is more than we usually have in a year. 










Poor little Papillon was lagging behind a bit during our run. Turns out he had a big clod of dirt bound up in the long hairs under his belly, and it was bouncing up and down pulling on the hair as he ran. My sister's dog has short hair so he does better. I don't care for having a long haired breed around here, it's not practical for the dog. They're wet and muddy in winter, too hot in summer. But I don't trim my Pap until late spring so he will be warm all winter. 



















I've been bringing the horses out for walking and grazing each evening, and they enjoy it very much. It's so nice to see Halla with an appetite, something no one has seen since she was starved. Lots of people are commenting on it. She's even cleaning up the hay Nala leaves in her shed from the night before when the horses are turned out together.

I'm beyond frustrated with our local feed store because of having issues for the umpteenth time. It would be helpful if there was more than one feed store within 50 miles, but they have a monopoly. There have been many issues, such as once when I special ordered grain, called to see if it was in, and they said it was. So I went to pick it up, and what they thought was my grain was some old bags with mites on them. They said they'd call when the grain came in. They called me to tell me the grain was in, and I asked them to make sure it wasn't the old bags with mites. They checked for me, said my grain was not in, they'd been mistaken and counted the bags with mites again. Then they asked if I wanted to buy the bags with mites for a discounted price. That was only one of many sagas.

Yesterday I went to buy grain, and they were out of my product. It will come in tomorrow or the next day. This is a chronic issue, they stock so little that if one person comes in and buys a few bags, then they will be out until the next week. I'm feeding extra beet pulp to try to make up the difference for a couple days. Then I will buy a lot of bags of grain so other people can run out but not me! It stores very nicely in our garage.


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## Hondo

I had issues with the stabilized ground flax I bought at the only feed store that stocked it being old with the bags chewed up with mice.

I checked online and was able to get it shipped directly to me for about the same price.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Then they asked if I wanted to buy the bags with mites for a discounted price.


:eek_color:  :eek_color:  :eek_color:  :eek_color: 

Someone actually asked you that?!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised if you said it the only place around.. but [email protected]


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Yesterday I went to buy grain, and they were out of my product. It will come in tomorrow or the next day. This is a chronic issue, they stock so little that if one person comes in and buys a few bags, then they will be out until the next week. I'm feeding extra beet pulp to try to make up the difference for a couple days. Then I will buy a lot of bags of grain so other people can run out but not me! It stores very nicely in our garage.


My trainer used to have one older mare with cushings, who was on a special diet, the feed store near him didn't carry her food so when he ordered it, he bought it by the pallet and made arrangements to have the store automatically re-order for him before he would start getting low. 

Since he was a regular customer with 12 other horses, they set up an account for him with an open credit card just for that mare's food. That way she never did without. Don't know if that might be an option for you?


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Since he was a regular customer with 12 other horses, they set up an account for him with an open credit card just for that mare's food. That way she never did without. Don't know if that might be an option for you?


I don't dare order too much at a time, since Halla has gone off food so often in the past. Next thing you know I'd have an entire shipment of grain that she didn't want to eat! Guess we'll struggle along and try not to complain. :grin:

There is a thread going about music and it's interesting to see how people's tastes vary. 
It makes me remember that I decided awhile back that Amore has this song going around in her head:
https://youtu.be/1qN72LEQnaU?list=PLdp7ar1A1_JaZQ71AORaoVf0Q8rkrczyZ
If I hum this tune while doing things with Amore, I can understand everything she does _perfectly. _ 

Also there was a song I heard on the radio and it got stuck in my head when I first was riding Halla out alone. The lyrics of the chorus were just so appropriate...I had to sing something to keep her calm and this song was perfect. Of course I didn't remember all the words, but she'd spook and I'd say, "There you go making my heart beat again...there you go making me feel like a kid..." "I'm stuck on you, wuh oh wuh oh stuck like glue, you and me baby we're stuck like glue."
It's hard to fall off a horse if you're stuck on like glue.

It wasn't that I even _liked_ the song per se, but it kept cracking me up so I kept on singing it. And you know what, I think it really helped keep me calm and get my mare going out much better alone. 




Any songs that help you with your horses?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This one






And this is Ghost's grooming


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> Any songs that help you with your horses?


Yes, absolutely! But I'm not at all a music person, so they tend to be simple, repetitive songs that work more to keep me calm and breathing when things get dicey on the trail.

Jingle Bells usually comes to my head first, but I usually change the words to be about a horse- "oh what fun it is to ride a nice bay mare all day, hey!"

Or, the tune of the The Ants Go Marching, changing the words to "this horse goes marching down the trail, she's nice and calm and not wringing her tail"

I will also admit to you all that I was a sorority girl in college  so sometimes raunchy old sorority drinking songs come to mind! They have good rhyming lyrics too so they're easy to change.


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## Hondo

I have only sang one song to Hondo, "On top of old smokey". I didn't know the words other than the melody and chorus so I just made up my own words, and as some would say my own melody 

I checked it out on youtube. The words are a little retro and definitely in the Oklahoma tearjerker vein, so just concentrate on the melody and make up your own words.

The line about the "party line" brought back some memories.


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## tinyliny

@Reiningcatsanddogs
I remember that song, "All the Pretty Little Horses", but sung by Odetta. it's an old folk song.


and, yes, I do think Spring is here in the Pacific Northwest. it HAS been a very wet winter. moss everywhere (that's why we are called "Moss Back")
I worked all day in the yard yesterday. there is so much to do to transition my yard from it's messy slumber of winter, into the rapidly accelerating chaos of Spring. I worked until I was unable to straighten up. today, I am paying the price in muscle pain.
oh, and this photo is spectacular:


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> I am paying the price in muscle pain.


Ya gotta get right back out there. Quick!! Otherwise you'll lose all the toning you did. Plus a little light work will make the soreness go away quicker. You'll be stronger. You can thank me later.

(you really needed this right?)


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> Or, the tune of the The Ants Go Marching, changing the words to "this horse goes marching down the trail, she's nice and calm and not wringing her tail


Now that's a good horse song! 
The song, "Been through the desert on a horse with no name," has been changed to "horse with no neck" when I'm on Amore, and on other horses, "horse with no mane." 

I like that one about all the pretty ponies. 

My yard also has started into the chaos of spring so I have to get out there too.


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## Hondo

Ont top of my Ho......ndo,

All covered in dust,

I've found my true ha.......ppiness,

Yes found it at last.


----------



## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> Ya gotta get right back out there. Quick!! Otherwise you'll lose all the toning you did. Plus a little light work will make the soreness go away quicker. You'll be stronger. You can thank me later.
> 
> (you really needed this right?)


Pouring down rain again. Not a good day for yard work. I went for a trail ride in the rain.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> Pouring down rain again. Not a good day for yard work. I went for a trail ride in the rain.


I've went riding in the rain a few times, but never intentionally. I reckon if I lived in WA I'd need to get a good slicker and go for it.

The ride ought to loosen the muscles so you'll be ready when the sun shines again.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Ont top of my Ho......ndo,
> 
> All covered in dust,
> 
> I've found my true ha.......ppiness,
> 
> Yes found it at last.


OK, that is perfect.

Halla is loosening up for exercise too. Just got back from taking the mares for a walk. Halla is feeling great and was doing a lot of this:

















No grain necessary. Solar and wind powered.


----------



## Hondo

I love my horse Ho........ndo,

For me he is the best,

He belongs to no o........ther,

He belongs just to me.....


----------



## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> I've went riding in the rain a few times, but never intentionally. I reckon if I lived in WA I'd need to get a good slicker and go for it.
> 
> The ride ought to loosen the muscles so you'll be ready when the sun shines again.


No REAL SEATTLITE wears a "slicker ", nor do we use umbrellas. Rain is "Mothers milk" to us.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> No REAL SEATTLITE wears a "slicker ", nor do we use umbrellas. Rain is "Mothers milk" to us.


Oregonians either. We have an umbrella...somewhere...I think. Not sure what it's for though. 
Rain gear has come a very long way. I remember going out running in sweat pants years ago, and they would get heavier and stick to your legs more as you went along. I only put on anything rain related if the rain is going to be coming down steadily for hours, and not if I can run between buildings and duck inside. Instead of umbrellas, if it gets too bad we actually put our hood up or pull our coat off and hold it over our head. 

But since I still go out running, walking or riding on days when it's really rainy, I do have riding rain pants, and a light waterproof shell jacket. Dri fit pants work great for running. It has to be pretty bad for me to put a hood up. 

In my travels, I've been many places where they have unfriendly rain. In the Pacific NW, the rain is often friendly. In other places, I've come across types of rain that I've never seen around here. 

In Texas, we were driving in rain that poured down so fast we couldn't see through the windshield with the wipers on full. It was like there was a waterfall coming out of the sky. 
In Tennessee and the south, I've been in rain where the drops were each the size of a quarter. In Arizona we ran into an unfriendly rain that I would call drenching. You wouldn't be able to go from the parking lot to the store without getting soaked.

It might rain seven days here, and I could go out in a friendly type rain on six of them. In a friendly rain, you could be outside fifteen minutes before you really started getting very wet. You can sometimes duck through raindrops and get where you're going with only four or five even landing on you. We call our friendly rain types mist (the lightest), drizzle, sprinkling, and on up to light rain. When people say it's a light rain or sprinkling kind of heavy, it gives us an idea of whether we will bother to pull something over our arms or not. We don't even think about covering our head until it gets up to the actual rain category. 

Fog can be wet, but the drops are microscopic. Once you can see the drops, we call it mist. If they get to where you can feel them hit your skin, we call it drizzle. Sprinkles start when the drops get a little bigger but farther apart. A light sprinkle comes down slowly, and a heavy sprinkle hits you faster. Spitting is a stinging rain similar to a pelting rain but very fine. "Drops" are moisture that hits your face and you weren't sure if a bird pooped on you because it's so occasional. Rain means you might actually get quite wet if you stay out for awhile. 

All of these categories have light, medium and heavy. But if the rain gets heavy enough, we start calling it pouring (makes you more wet) vs pelting (stings your skin). If we say the rain is drenching or sheeting, that's getting pretty bad. A shower is a quick on-and-off sprinkling or light rain that lasts a few seconds or minutes. A downpour is a brief period of heavy rain. 

Usually we think you're being dramatic if you say you went riding in the rain and it was only misting or drizzling. Even sprinkling or an occasional shower is probably not worth mentioning. If you say you went riding in the _rain_ (as @tinyliny did), I assume it was anywhere from a heavy sprinkle to a light, medium or heavy steady rain that lasted most of the time you were out there. 

If it hailed, you get extra points. If you were out in pouring or sheeting rain for a couple hours, you're a die hard. 
Rain doesn't register within my notice unless I start getting wet. In the spring and fall, with temps in the 50s, you don't get cold even if you get wet, so the rain is not bothersome unless it is really drenching. My least favorite thing is when I've been riding for five minutes, and then it pours for five minutes and gets me soaked. Then, the cloud goes by and it's once again dry, but I'm totally wet for the rest of the ride. You just feel that if your timing had been a little better, you could have stayed dry. 

Outdoor people around here tend to want to stay light, because it's usually not cold. We don't want heavy gear weighing us down. So we have super light waterproof gear, and then we can run around and let the water run off our backs. What we love about the rain and moisture is that most of the time we don't worry about the sun, or sunburn. We don't get chapped, we don't dehydrate. We don't carry water for 90% of the year, and don't freeze and barely sweat. 

There are hardly any bugs, and no poisonous critters on the coast. Well, if you eat the salamanders their skin is poisonous. I heard about a drunk guy who swallowed one, but the ER saved him. And technically there are Hobo spiders around somewhere. None of our snakes have venom though. So we think of a cool, wet climate as a friendly place. If you run out of your house unprepared, no worries. The weather won't kill you, and the animals won't either. So you just have to know how to swim and you're good.


----------



## Hondo

Reminds about how many words for snow the Eskimos have.

In the past, when the weekend came, I was out. Snow, rain, hot, cold, didn't matter. It was my weekend. When everyday is the weekend, I've gotten more choosie about the weather.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I was out riding with my trainer one day. We had been out for about two hours before the rumblings in the distance that had been going on for quite some time, finally got loud enough that we decided to head for the barn. Just as we turned the corner to the road the barn was on when the sky opened up and the rain started along with straight line winds. The rain felt like needles hitting you. One moment, nothing, the next all hell seemed to be breaking loose. 

We just looked at each other and kicked the horses into high gear with one eye to the sky; not so much for lightening as half expecting to see a funnel cloud coming towards us. 

@gottatrot, I assume when you say hail, you aren’t talking this kind that we get here at least once or twice a year. They sometimes can put a hole in your roof.










We immediately seek cover in hail because it might start out pea size and then suddenly flip over to the above. It could cause concussion or worse. 

Even with predicted rain you need to be cautious here sometimes a bolt from the blue can get you. Just last year a friend of my niece was hit at the soccer field she plays at. (looking at the dates, it was two years ago. Time flies!)

Lightning strike injures 3 children at soccer practice | KXAN.com 

All of the schools here (and when we lived in Florida) have lightening strike monitors. Not a lot of the "youth leagues" have them. They used to be really expensive. The devices tell you if there is a lightening strike within ten miles of your location. They now have personal ones available for under $50. Can't tell you how accurate they are though. 










My rule of thumb is that if there is any dark green or yellow on radar within fifty miles before a ride, I don't ride for multiple reasons. 

One is flash flooding which is really common here. It doesn't have to be raining anywhere near you to have a flash flood happen right where you are. The second is lightening. The storms can go from gentle rains to developed violent thunderstorms in a matter of minutes. The third reason is footing. The clay ground and rocks here get really slippery even with a light coating. 

For us it just isn't worth the risk because as the song says "The sun will come out, tomorrow."


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## gottatrot

Yes, that's why it's so different here. I realize when people in other areas say they don't go out in the rain (or hail), it's not like what we have. It's inconvenient, but we can go out safely if we wish. 

We rarely even get hail the size of a pea. Our usual hail is half the size of a pea. We had lots of hail this year, an unusual amount. But it was all tiny. No, the horses don't like it but it's not hurting anyone. I saw huge hail in Minnesota (but not as big as yours!) and it was scary. It made me think that if you were stuck out somewhere you could get killed.

We also very rarely get lightning. Our lightning always comes in the winter in the middle of a big rainstorm. It's always part of a storm so rough you wouldn't be out there anyway, and usually in the middle of the night. So we pay no attention to dark clouds or rain coming in, it's not going to have lightning with it. 
When we visited Pennsylvania to see my brother-in-law a couple years ago, we went to a kid's football game and they sent us all home because it started raining and lightning was coming. 

I've also been in a lake in Minnesota where they made us all get out because of clouds. Here we swim in the rain sometimes and it's not dangerous. I used to do it a lot as a kid. 

We don't have flash flooding either. It does flood, but it's different. Everything here is made to handle lots and lots of water. If we somehow get so much water coming down along with high tides, the waters rise up but it's kind of a slower process and we watch it happening. It always happens around water that is already there, not as water suddenly flowing through a dry area. We know which spots flood every year, and if it rains a lot we know certain areas will be under water. 

We were impressed in Arizona when we were hiking, seeing how big some of the washes were that were now dry but we could see where water had gone through after rain.


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## Hondo

Arizona get's monsoons in the summer. Yes, dry washes can become raging torrents.

I lived 1/4 mile from the beach in Pacifica California for around 15 years. I know fog, drizzle, and all those other categories. I rode a motorcycle to work for several years rain or shine. I didn't even check the weather, I just looked outside before going to the garage and leaving. Didn't think twice.

People used to ask me in the winter, "Don't you get cold"? I used to say, "It's cold when you ski but it's fun".

Ah well, seems we all find a way to adapt to what ever we find ourselves in. Good thing too.

I love my horse Ho.....ndo,

He gives me his best,

(more lines please)


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## gottatrot

> I love my horse Ho.....ndo,
> 
> He gives me his best,
> 
> I point where his nose goes,
> 
> He fills in the rest.





> I love my Amore,
> 
> She is so much fun,
> 
> But loses her marble,
> 
> She's got only one


Hee hee.

Recently I've been thinking about calmness. A couple of people I know who are into natural horsemanship talk a lot about calmness. One of them was talking to me not long ago about how she wanted to make sure the horses were always calm, and discussed some of the things she does to really think about how to put horses in that state. Basically, it is her philosophy to work toward calm, to never try teaching things unless the horse is calm, and to promote a state of calmness.

It has made me ponder over what my own beliefs are regarding this. What I think I've decided is that working toward calm and being calm is one tool a person might use, at certain times. I don't necessarily believe it is _the_ tool, or that horses need to always be and stay calm. 

A tool that I have used much more in horse training is managing energy. I do believe in patience, and that a long, slow route is the best way to approach training. But I honestly think that with some horses (and dogs) if you had to wait for absolute calm before doing any training, you wouldn't make a lot of progress for years. With some you'd probably have to wait for them to age out.

For instance, once I was advised to teach Halla a cue to put her head down. Then I was to work on this cue gradually going farther from home, until we were somewhere very exciting at which point I could cue her and just doing the act of lowering her head would release calming endorphins and she would relax in this very exciting place. So I'm on the beach with a horse snorting and prancing in circles around me, and I'm giving a cue to put her head down. She's like, "What? Let's play that game later, when we're in a library or something. I'm having fun and this is interesting."

The truth is that horses are not always calm. An excited horse is not necessarily in a bad state, in a "non-thinking" place, and what might be completely losing it to one horse might be relative calmness to another. I remember one day when Halla and I just had a mile gallop up a mountain trail, and we were walking down a gravel road when we came across a truck with a couple of hunters. They wanted to ask me directions, so I talked to them for a minute. One of them asked, "What's wrong with your horse?" Until that moment, I'd considered my horse very calm, doing minor fidgets and I had circled her back around just once to stand inches away from their rumbling, spewing diesel truck. To them, she looked like she was having a melt down. My response was that she was an Arabian, and this was normal for her. 

When I see energy in my horses, bursting out of them, I think positively. I think I am seeing signs of good health. I think I am seeing energy to be ridden and to burn off with work. When I see calmness, I think that is good too, in the right setting. But when I am working on things my current horses will not be very calm, and that is fine because I will channel their energy positively and get them focused on things that are difficult, and that they will need that energy for. 

My friend wants Amore to approach her food calmly. That's great. But if she ever approaches her food so calmly she's indifferent, I will worry. I'm actually more happy to see her having interest in food and life and energy to do things. That is something I value more than calmness, myself.

So a horse like this in the video below...I've worked with this kind of energy a lot. First of all, you put the horse out on a very big circle and you take off all the pressure, and then you wait. The energy has to be managed. All we're doing here in the video is getting the horse too close, within a dangerous range while he's still all full of beans. Then the handler is forced to react to keep the horse away, and this is going to work the horse up more. Whapping him with the rope isn't going to help either. Instead, what I like to do is put the horse way out. Take off the pressure. The horse will calm himself, after working a little edginess off. Once he's able to walk calmly out on the edge, he's ready to come in and talk. Keeping him off balance, sudden moves, none of that will help. Get him working, manage the energy. Help him bring his mind into a working mode. These horses are able to work very well, they just need to have time and space to relax first. They're not going to be calm, but they're going to be working.




I think there are different approaches for different horses. With a very sluggish horse, I'll do things like in this video, trying to get the horse thinking and moving. For a calm, slow horse, working is picking up the pace and getting peppy. For a reactive horse, that's not working, that's insanity. Work to them is not moving your feet and doing quick turns, it's focusing on long, straight lines, maintaining a gait, achieving a rhythm and staying in it. That's when you really see them getting into a thinking, working mode. So for either type, I don't see calmness achieved in the work...? One has to get less calm, more active. The other has to come down a few notches but still it is not what you would call "calm."


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## Hondo

I'm currently reading in the chapter titled, "The Insanity of Conditioning". The video would seem to fit in there somewhere.

Ah, the gift of words. I used to switch my kids names around and even include the dogs names at times. They sort of got used to it. I'll be singing those words to Hondo soon. Got a good morning chuckle about Amore. Through you, she is teaching me stuff I may have not learned otherwise.


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## Hondo

Example of my problem with words: The actual title is, "The Mental Cage of Conditioning".


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, you have some terrific ideas and I love reading about them.

I made this slideshow for Isabeau long after I stopped giving up on her. These are not pictures of Isabeau. I have very few pictures of her because I am the one who rides her. It's just a poignant song about a rider giving up on her horse. I almost gave up on Isabeau a lot of times, but I just couldn't do it . . . and now I'm glad I didn't.



For about 6 years this song described my Chorro perfectly. Not anymore, but it is still his song, even though it doesn't fit him anymore.


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## Hondo

Link for the slideshow and songs didn't make the trip. (not there for me?


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## knightrider

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/pictorial-history-chorro-713898/
http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...e=I'm Giving Up on You - The Horse Forum&txt=


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> I think there are different approaches for different horses. With a very sluggish horse, I'll do things like in this video, trying to get the horse thinking and moving. For a calm, slow horse, working is picking up the pace and getting peppy. For a reactive horse, that's not working, that's insanity. Work to them is not moving your feet and doing quick turns, it's focusing on long, straight lines, maintaining a gait, achieving a rhythm and staying in it. That's when you really see them getting into a thinking, working mode. So for either type, I don't see calmness achieved in the work...? One has to get less calm, more active. The other has to come down a few notches but still it is not what you would call "calm."


Nice little rhyme! Funny :lol:

Good stuff. I completely agree. A horse that is always and constantly calm reminds me of some WP and hunter horses... they look dead to the world.

Shan has to be ridden "forward, forward, forward!" She doesn't even get excitable at a gallop by herself on the trail or following another horse, but she does get a little excited going neck and neck pretending to be a racehorse. I have to tune her up again as she is starting to ignore even spurs now. Granted, my spurs are so gentle that I can dig and roll them into my own skin and they don't hurt, which is why I bought them. So anyway, for her, generally the more energy the better. Not nervous energy though, she would not be like Amore running in her pen and not knocking you over. She 'forgets' about you in flight mode and turns into a bulldozer, and this is largely a reason why she has to be constantly reminded of her boundaries.

Belle, on the other hand, is generally a calm horse, but sensitive. She tries so hard to please, too hard really. If she doesn't get it right the first time, it literally gives her anxiety, and she'll keep trying and trying and trying and just getting more and more upset. So I actually make her stop and stand for a few seconds on a loose rein, then ask again. Very rarely, I make her push through the anxiety and get the right answer, but usually only after having her stop and calm down several times without success. So for her, she does her best work when she is calmer, vs. Shan who requires more energy to put her mind to work.

When my mom first bought Belle, Belle thought that lunging or round pen work meant running your tail off until the handler either left or got the halter. It took a lot of work, and a lot of patience, to get her to slow down. I can remember thinking "gah, is this ever going to end? I am so tired of saying 'easy, whoa,'". It has worked out well now though and was worth all the effort. It is such a cool feeling to free lunge both horses at the same time and have them picking gaits by voice command. Both horses now also slow down from a gallop on the trail nearly by voice command alone (Shan will stop with a voice command, Belle will start slowing down and then you have to convince her with reins).

You are much nicer than I am. I would tell that person, if it was me in your shoes, to basically bug off and let my horse eat the way she wants, but probably in a kinder way lol. As the years go by, I become less and less tolerant of busy-bodies and know-it-alls.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/pictorial-history-chorro-713898/
> http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...e=I'm Giving Up on You - The Horse Forum&txt=


Great slideshow and I liked the song...seems fitting for many people struggling with their horses.


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## tinyliny

jumping in here, not having kept up on things. sorry.
regarding that vido of the man and the 'crazy ' horse. if that isn't a mismatched pair, I don't know what is!

there is soooo much about that video that is disturbing. first of all, the use of the whip/stick. the only time that was needed was when the mare tried to come over him, and if he'd been more on top of things, he would have stopped her before she got so close with a sharp wiggle of the rope. the hard ground of that arena, and the small circles were painful to hear. letting her careen around on a tight rope like that, on hard ground, is of no benefit that I can see.

not sure the context of that video, but starting in a round pen would be better, IMO. let her run a bit , if she needs to, and stay with her until she is willing to look for something other than escape 'out there'.

now, what were you all talking about?


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> jumping in here, not having kept up on things. sorry.
> regarding that vido of the man and the 'crazy ' horse. if that isn't a mismatched pair, I don't know what is!
> 
> there is soooo much about that video that is disturbing. first of all, the use of the whip/stick. the only time that was needed was when the mare tried to come over him, and if he'd been more on top of things, he would have stopped her before she got so close with a sharp wiggle of the rope. the hard ground of that arena, and the small circles were painful to hear. letting her careen around on a tight rope like that, on hard ground, is of no benefit that I can see.
> 
> not sure the context of that video, but starting in a round pen would be better, IMO. let her run a bit , if she needs to, and stay with her until she is willing to look for something other than escape 'out there'.
> 
> now, what were you all talking about?


Agreed, mostly. IMO, they just needed to sit down and visit a while. Get to know one another. 'Course, with only three years experience, my IMO's don't count too much. But there it is anyhow.

That said, I hit a horse today and threw my hat at him. So don't count me as a total pushover, quite.


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## tinyliny

Hats make for good self defense weapons.


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## Hondo

My hat was the only thing available within 1/10 of a second except my hand which I had already used and was out of range.

In case anybody is wondering, no it absolutely was not Hondo nor could it ever be. And I doubt it'll ever happen again with the horse in question. He doesn't seem to have held it against me and shows no fear of me at all. I've seen him start to act a little nippy and actually stop and appear to be thinking it over since. It was no big deal, but only the second time in three years that I've done such. The other time was with his mom.

And I swear, Hondo was standing over there looking at me afterwards with an expression that said, "See, that's what I've been telling you. Now you know!" He looked a little surprised at the whole situation too.

Horse's are really something.


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## tinyliny

i've used the flap,flap motion of my hat before. and even thrown it, but then you feel like a warrior who just threw his sword; naked.


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## bsms

FWIW, Bandit is nippy. He is nippy with the other horses, particularly when playing. Yet he never leaves a mark on the other horse, while he ends up covered with bite marks. I've had him grab my sleeves with his lips when leading him, move his head toward me as if he was going to nip me because...????...and having his head meet my elbow countless times has meant nothing to him. He's the sort who pulls tools out of the farrier's pockets, open gates if not chained shut, picks up his feed bucket and carries it across the corral. He'll mouth (not bite) the saddle hanging on a rail in front of him, or the saddle pad, plays with the sides of curb bits, grab and pick up the bit hanging on the rail, etc.

I have no tolerance for a horse acting that way with ME, but I don't think he means anything wrong by it. It seems to be how he explores his environment and often seems as much about seeking reassurance as anything else. I dislike it, but I doubt he's going to change.

He's also the sort you can cuss at, chuck a rock at, and chase across the corral...and have him come over to say hello about 2 minutes later. And the sort who can buck a protest and then get back to work 5 seconds later.

That is part of why I don't see him ever being a SUBTLE ride. He's capable of understanding subtle signals, but he doesn't value it. Heck, I can chase him around the corral after he knocks over my wheelbarrow of poop, waving the poop-scoop and screaming...and have him stroll over behind me as I go back, and smell the poop as I put it back into the wheelbarrow.


----------



## Hondo

In some respects, Bandit and Dragon share some common characteristics. Dragon was covered in bite marks when I brought him in with Hondo. Yet Dragon does not have an ounce of aggression in him.

He is very investigative and knocks stuff off the outside table and turns over chairs etc. I do not get upset and just conclude if I don't want him to investigate stuff, I need to keep it out of his reach. When he is curious and investigating, he is being the horse I hope he continues being. I do not want to shut down or stifle any of that at all.

He is very lippy about me and particularly my hands. But not looking for food. Just looking. At first I was concerned he might bite. But as I gradually gained confidence in him, I allowed him more and more. As I allowed him, he began to lick. Finally, I allowed him to feel my fingers with his teeth. He did not bite. Just a very very gentle squeeze as if to measure their firmness and texture. I think he just wants to know stuff.

When working with his feet he will knock my hat off, nibble on my hair with his lips, pull anything out of my rear pockets that he can get hold of, etc.

The other day I put his foot down and started to step away, he absolutely swung his head around and lightly, very lightly, nipped me on the back of the leg. Not hard enough to cause the least bit of pain, but my reaction was swift, also not causing any pain, and I don't think any real fear, just startle.

After that I went around lifting and pretending to work on each hoof. His head stayed straight ahead and he was unusually cooperative. Almost too cooperative in some ways.

He is very intelligent, I think, and very curious. I do not want to dampen any of that in the least.

He has a ton of conformation faults, but the intelligence, curiosity, and people friendliness overrides conformation to me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I guess it depends where you draw that line. I don’t let our horses lick me or nibble at me and the horses don’t even try it; they know I don’t allow it. DH does let them lip, nibble, lick despite my warnings to him. Guess who has been bitten more often despite the differences in years working around horses? It doesn’t seem to bother him as much as it does me. A horse tries to bite me or actually succeeds and I go nuclear. Same goes for kicking.

Caspian bit me once while I was leading him, he was two. We had our little CTJ moment (quick, fair and appropriate to the crime) and then proceeded as usual. He hasn’t tried it with me again in the years since and it hasn’t affected his curiosity or his outgoing attitude toward people or his environment at all. 

With Oliver and his former working stud tendencies that rear their head on occasion, for me and those who deal with him, it just isn't worth the risk of him deciding that someone needs to be put in their place with a good bite or worse. That scene from the movie "Buck" comes to mind. Since seeing that, DH doesn't let Ollie mouth him.

Anyway, to each their own.


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## Hondo

That scene in Buck has always bugged me. But first, that was a horse that had an oxygen shortage at birth and was never right. Which to me means the horse in Buck does not apply to handling a "normal" horse. And I include Amore in there as "normal". 

But the scene: The guy in the round pen was just casually walking around throwing the saddle pad on the horse then pulling it off, seemingly paying little attention to the horse. The horse was getting the heck pressured out of him and finally resorted to self defense. Or at least that is the way I saw/see it. I have the video and have watched that scene a few times.

With that horse having the past problems, and present problems as described, the guy in the round pen just should not have been doing what he was doing in the way he was doing it.

Something about that whole scene just did/does not seem to fit.

That's my take. As always, YMMV.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> He's also the sort you can cuss at, chuck a rock at, and chase across the corral...and have him come over to say hello about 2 minutes later.


I was thinking about this. Isn't Bandit the one you described as biting one of the horses a little on the rump just to get them to chase him?

If so, could it be remotely possible that Bandit has figured out a way to get his human to chase him? What a fun game I'll go turn over the poop cart and get chased.

Could it be that hollering and chasing him is actually a reward as seen by him?

I know, way out there, but still a fun idea.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...What a fun game I'll go turn over the poop cart and get chased.
> 
> Could it be that hollering and chasing him is actually a reward as seen by him...


I suspect that is correct. "Flip the poop cart" is a game, and he then probably enjoys being chased. But even if we are both a bit ****ed at each other, he doesn't stay mad. Neither do I, FWIW. The other two horses get as far away from me as possible at the smallest sign of anger. Bandit? He figures I'll cool off quick. And if he gives me some "But I wanna" bucks, I'll tell him to go to H E double L, and he then settles fine.

I think it boils down to a year and a half of riding has given both of us confidence in the ultimate good intentions of the other. Mia could get her feelings hurt, though. Bandit? Not likely.

My BIL is of Polish descent. I told him Bandit isn't so much Arabian-Mustang as a Polish-Mustang. My BIL understands...figures it is a compliment. Maybe it is.


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## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> That scene in Buck has always bugged me. But first, that was a horse that had an oxygen shortage at birth and was never right. Which to me means the horse in Buck does not apply to handling a "normal" horse. And I include Amore in there as "normal".
> 
> *But the scene: The guy in the round pen was just casually walking around throwing the saddle pad on the horse then pulling it off, seemingly paying little attention to the horse. The horse was getting the heck pressured out of him and finally resorted to self defense. Or at least that is the way I saw/see it. I have the video and have watched that scene a few times.*
> 
> With that horse having the past problems, and present problems as described, the guy in the round pen just should not have been doing what he was doing in the way he was doing it.
> 
> Something about that whole scene just did/does not seem to fit.
> 
> That's my take. As always, YMMV.


If I recall correctly, that horse had plenty of chances to leave the guy who was working the saddle blanket on him. he wasn't without an avenue of escape from the pressure. his reaction was so unlike a typical horse. so calculated. he didn't really give a big warning. he didnt' TRY to flee. he just put up until 'WHAM". very scary. 


I do allow horses to lick my hands, but only horses that have proven themselves to be without any aggression. I put MY hands in their mouths, but I doubt I would trust even then nicest horse to 'feel' out my hands with their teeth. I think that allowing licking verses not allowing teeth touching is a pretty clear line, in even a lenient and trusting relationship. on the other hand, I do suppose that you CAN teach a horse to restrain himself with his teeth. I mean, people teach lions or bears to allow them to put their head in the jaws, and no one gets killed . . . most of the time.


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## gottatrot

I've also been bugged by that scene in Buck. I agree with @tinyliny that the horse had a chance to leave, yes. But I'm not sure that was the right approach given the horse's known background. I don't give any credit to the "oxygen deprived" part. Someone on the forum, maybe @Smilie had some information that being oxygen deprived at birth does not really create aggression in horses. I think the premise was that the brain still has a lot of development to go through and has not yet formed the higher cognition parts well yet. So brain damage to that extent might mean a horse couldn't walk straight or suckle, and wouldn't survive. Otherwise any lesser damage would be unlikely to affect a horse throughout life. Made sense to me.

BUT, I would believe that a horse with normal brain function could have these issues created in the scenario described, which was being raised poorly with no boundaries by humans, and then turned out into an aggressive herd with multiple stallions. The horse would have learned no idea of normal social interactions early on, and then all of those abnormal social skills would have been met with aggression when the horse finally was put in with other horses. This could have created a horse that reacted with extreme defensive aggression. 

Knowing this, just giving a horse an avenue to escape pressure might not be enough. In a herd with multiple stallions, running might not be the solution if there is not enough space. You might have to fight every time, like you were trapped in prison with thugs. That's how I imagined that horse viewed life. I believe a very dangerous animal was created, and putting him down was not a wrong thing to do. 

If a person had wanted to work with the horse, I think he should have first been sedated and gelded, and then put into a very quiet and strictly scheduled environment for a good amount of time. Any type of face on "at you" would be seen by this horse as potential aggression. He thought even having someone near him meant potential danger, so did preemptive strikes. I think even in a very controlled situation he would remain dangerous, but possibly once gelded and with all threats out of his life for some time, he might not be.

After just writing the above, I looked online to see if I could find the specifics of that Buck horse situation, trying to remember how many other stallions the horse was turned out with, etc (couldn't find it). Meanwhile, I came across a book called The Power of the Herd. I couldn't copy the excerpt I was reading, but basically the author also thinks that horse had the wrong approach, and that they were trying to fix a complex problem in a short amount of time. She describes a similar horse she worked with that knew only aggression. At first the only thing she could do was stand near the horse, watching the sunset as a companion so the horse could learn this was someone who would put no pressure on him and show no aggression. I'll have to read the book.
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Herd-Nonpredatory-Intelligence-Leadership/dp/1608683710

I think similarly about letting a horse put their teeth on you. Rather than a hard and fast rule, it's about knowing your own horse very well. Having been bitten, feeling teeth on me makes me nervous, so I don't allow it. That being said, I do a lot of hand feeding and with just a few little boundaries horses can be very responsible with it. I can hold a treat to the side while leading a horse without even looking and either of my mares will delicately separate the food from my hand with their lips and take it. 

Halla will set her teeth on me as a warning, and I reprimand it, but I do see it as a sign of respect. She is the type of horse that if you did not have a good relationship with her and also crossed the line, she would just flat out bite you, hard. Setting teeth on is her way of saying, "You do realize I could bite your head off, but I'm going to give you this one chance to straighten up." It is her way of being forgiving.

With horses and humans, I really dislike it when people want to make everything simple by making everything black and white, and thinking rules and straight lines will fix everything. Everyone is different and we have to be flexible, thinking outside the box. I like that about Bandit being "Polish" (he actually could be Polish Arab, LOL), and I think that type of knowing our horse is so important. 

Doctors do this too, and the medical field tries to have a rule for every situation. My patient the other night was deemed "noncompliant" because you know every single person who has X needs these same three medications. Yet she had very valid reasons for not complying, reacting very strongly to the drugs. She was willing to try one dose, and immediately her point was proven and I stopped the medication and notified the doc. But still the doctor wrote noncompliant with medication regimen...? I don't see why we think complex things such as horses or human bodies will always follow the same rules.


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## gottatrot

Halla has been so sound I've started the process of getting her gradually back into light work.
This week, I've been leading her on half mile walks with Amore.
Next week I plan to do walk/trot lunging some days interspersed with half mile walks.
The week after that, I plan to do short walking/trotting rides around the property. Then I will evaluate to see how she is doing and if she is ready for more. The vet said she could go back into work, but I will be cautious and go very slowly. 

This morning a poor little injured beaver was found near the barn. We got him to the wildlife vet, and he'll stay in the clinic for awhile but will hopefully be fine. 








We keep the wildlife vets busy around here. I've brought them several animals myself, a baby opossum, a deer, and a mountain beaver (not to be confused with an actual beaver). My mom has brought them a duck and a seagull. 

The daffodils are blooming everywhere. Amore was happy to graze among them on our walk today.








So was Halla, but she wouldn't stand still enough for a clear photo with a horizontal background.








The frogs provided the background music after a wet couple of days.


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## horseluvr2524

Yay! So glad it wasn't six months or a year completely off work. Halla's condition looks a lot better, more normal, now that she's been off the oats.

We've had random rain here, the 'come out of nowhere' rain. Mostly though, the sun has just been increasing in intensity and the horses are trying to eat as much of the weeds and grass as possible when they are turned out before it all dies off.


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## Hondo

"You do realize I could bite your head off, but I'm going to give you this one chance to straighten up."


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> I think similarly about letting a horse put their teeth on you. Rather than a hard and fast rule, it's about knowing your own horse very well. Having been bitten, feeling teeth on me makes me nervous, so I don't allow it. That being said, I do a lot of hand feeding and with just a few little boundaries horses can be very responsible with it. I can hold a treat to the side while leading a horse without even looking and either of my mares will delicately separate the food from my hand with their lips and take it.


RE: the Buck video incident, I agree, I think that was a perfect example of what can happen at a lot of these trainer clinics, where they try to rush through because there are cameras rolling instead of taking the time they know they should. It has the unfortunate consequence of setting expectations for lay people that quick is the best and only way to get the job done. 

I believe the number of stallions the owner had was 18. To me it indicates the possibility that the lady might have been one of those that believed that gelding was cruel and unnecessary. Her horse, her decision, except when she then laid her problem in Buck's lap. Then her issues became his problem. 

With biting and kicking, it is a personal preference for me. I have other people around my horses some know little to nothing about horses, including the grandkids and other children. 

What might be a small nip to me or DH might encompass an entire arm for one of the kids and scare them off from the horses permanently. Not worth the risk over the reward for us. We do hand-feed treats, namely when the grandkids are here and so the horses all have to be on their best behavior. No possibility of teeth!


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## bsms

I don't tolerate Bandit pulling at my sleeve, but his nose bumping into my elbow a hundred times hasn't changed him much, either. I really dislike it, but he is who he is. That is good in some ways, but I don't let our grandkids get near him.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> RE: the Buck video incident, I agree, I think that was a perfect example of what can happen at a lot of these trainer clinics, where they try to rush through because there are cameras rolling instead of taking the time they know they should...


The video is below, around the 3 minute mark. The horse was, IMHO, sending a lot of signals that he was NOT in "receiving mode". The first time I saw the movie, not knowing what was going to happen, I was all tense inside before the attack. My horses wouldn't attack as a result of being worked like that, but I wouldn't be making much progress with them, either.

I have never handled a truly aggressive horse and I don't plan on doing so. I'd rather shoot a horse I thought might attack a human. But from a training perspective, it looked all wrong to me. It looked to me like telling a 2nd grader to buckle down and work on his algebra problem...


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## gottatrot

In that moment right before the horse bites, the handler is face on with the horse, which can be interpreted as an aggressive move. Especially with a horse that has only been around other stallions. 

It was discussed that the horse had the opportunity to escape, but that is a very short lead and the handler is well within many horses' uncomfortable zone. It looks like a very aggressive move on the horse's part. However, it does not look crazy or anything like that. The horse does not try to stomp on the person or continue biting. He turns and moves away once he has accomplished stopping the movement towards himself that he finds threatening.

I'm not sure why you would be trying to touch a horse with something scary like a blanket if they don't accept the touch of your hand yet. And why would you have the horse face you? I'd be uncomfortable doing that even with a horse that was simply scared or unhandled and not aggressive. It is a short trip from facing a handler to striking or running over them. 

I thought it was a good sign that the horse was moving away from a whip when Buck was in the pen with him. Many horses are inadvertently taught that those tools are not that scary, and will charge through them. If you are going in a pen with a horse like that, you need to keep a fast escape route for yourself and not think a blanket or small whip is going to stop the horse. 

What disappointed me is that a horseman trying to teach other people to be horsemen would boil everything down to a training approach. It is far too simplistic to think just how we handle a horse will fix all his problems. 

The horse seems to move around fine, but the first step should have been to sedate the horse, geld him, check his teeth and trim his hooves. Make sure he is out of pain and without the influence of aggressive hormones, step one. Then evaluate his diet and lifestyle, make sure those things aren't putting an undue amount of stress on him. He'd then have to be turned out for awhile to wait for his testosterone levels to drop. Then of course he'd need his hooves trimmed again before working. After all that, training becomes more meaningful. 

That was the biggest disappointment to me, that without giving the horse a fair shot, they put him in a position where he hurt humans, and then he was put down. He had lived this long, hadn't he? 
It was just so much more of a gamble to try training when the horse still had so many factors against him, including being in a strange environment among strangers. What we are being shown is a worst case type of horse, and I believe the worse a horse is, the longer you should expect he will take to change. I would think a year minimum would be required before evaluating to see if the horse could become safe, after many other measures were taken. 

People wouldn't want the liability of a horse like this. Yet a human made the horse like this. We keep rhinos and lions in captivity. It wouldn't be impossible to keep an aggressive horse long enough to give the horse a chance. I've seen very aggressive horses kept safely. I suspect among all those other stallions there would be other problem horses as well. The human factor was the biggest problem here. 
This woman let the problem develop over time, and even though she now sees it as a crisis that needs to be emergently fixed, it doesn't mean that what took years to develop can be fixed in a day or two. I run into the truth of this quote on a daily basis:
It is very true when it comes to horses.


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## Hondo

Thank you @gottatrot You put into words what has been bothering me so much about that whole scene. You said it exactly and quite a bit more.


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## gottatrot

First time out lunging since Valhalla's laminitis:


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## horseluvr2524

Go Halla go! She looks so pretty trotting... that's how buyers get sucked in 

I've wondered before, what are those white things on the halters? I thought they were those ID tag things, but then up close in the video I wasn't sure.


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## gottatrot

Halter fleeces. First the pieces that go around the poll kept falling off, so they got left off. Then the nose parts got used for other things. All that is left is the cheek parts. :smile:









Yes, you just have to imagine when watching movement how it might feel to_ ride_ it.


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## tinyliny

are you wearting a gopro? on chest, head?

what is the footing in their little run in paddock? looks almost like sand.


one small, tiny, itsy bitsy suggestion I learned from a European lady, regarding lunging; she said to hold the lunge line as if it were a rein. so, literally, you hold the lungeline in the same way you would hold the reins. it's amazing, but it gives you a much firmer grip when you need it, and a softer grip when you dont'. you can transmit a feel down it the same way you can on a rein, just by closing or openning your hand.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot there has been talk in my house of another Oregon trip (not even by me haha!). I'm not getting my hopes up... but there has been talk! Everyone wants to visit the Oregon coast again. It was so stunningly beautiful, I'm not surprised we saw so many pro photographers. Anyway, just a little side note 

I've never much understood the point of halter fleeces. Shan is pretty thin skinned in her summer coat, and even with all of her crazy antics she's never rubbed herself, and I've always used nylon halters.
@tinyliny that is interesting on the lunge line. I will try that next time I lunge. I may already be doing that in a way... but then again, fitting the lunge line between my ring finger and pinkie may be a bit difficult, as it is very bulky rope, and I also need to have a good hold as Shan tries to take off sometimes on the lunge. Brat. lol.

As per what you all were discussing earlier, I did make DH sit through Buck with me. He enjoyed it more than he thought he would. I remember when that horse first showed up on screen, his breath caught and he basically said 'what a stunning animal'. Then when he saw what happened later, even he considered the horse too dangerous (and this is a guy that wants a lion as a pet. I always say, 'fine, when I get a Grizzly Bear you can have a lion! lol. He's a cat person. I find it fascinating that there are some Russians that make friends with grizzlies... talk about guts!). I however, think that the horse could have been saved and turned around, given enough time. In the end, it always comes down to how much time someone is willing to put into a horse. And when there are so many other unwanted, good prospects out there, most people think 'why waste my time on a dangerous one?'.


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## tinyliny

I see those shows where a man is friends with a bear, and I cringe. I think it's becaue I cannot 'read' a bear to know when it's time to move away. I can mostly read a horse. not 100%, but a horse person can generally tell when a kick or bite is a distinct possibility, and when it's more likely not an issue.

as to holding the leadline in your hand if it's thick . . I use heavy yacht rope and rope halters for pretty much all my handling of horses (except trailering). I can hold the line in the same way as a rein. and, it's a much stronger way to hold the rein/rope. it's also a great way to transmit feel.

I mean, a lot of times, when I am just leading a hrose along, and he's coming along just fine, I can have the rope pretty loose in my hand, and then the horse takes a look at the grass and I see his thought going to 'i wanna snatch a bite'. if I am on the ball, all I have to do is close my hand on the rope, not even pull, just kind of 'deaden' the looseness of the rope, and he feels that and lets go of that thought and comes along proper-like again.

just like a rein. when you are lunging the horse and he's respecting the line, you have a softer hand. when he starts to pull, you firm up your hand, maybe even give a little short sharp tug , in your hand/wrist only, and remind him to stand up, not lean on the line and behave. when you are asking him to transition, you 'half-halt' with your hand taking a firmer hold on the line, asking him to gather himself a bit, and change gait. just like a rein.


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## Hondo

I do it all wrong. If Hondo spies something that really really really attracts him, I usually yield to his request, unless something is really pressing, then he yields to mine. Sometimes he'll just sort of look over as if to say, "how about some of that". Depending, I may nod him away from it, or if in a kick back mood, yeah, go ahead.

That's either riding or leading, we don't lung, he's not that high energy, although he is really stepping out since I whacked up his $270 saddle pad to make certain nothing was bearing weight that should not, particularly the trapz.

I'm betting if Halla had said, "Oh Gottatrot, that's to die for, just one bite?", she'd have gotten it.


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## tinyliny

well, I let him graze at times. but, X is the kind of you allow an inch, he wants a mile, every time.

when leading, he tries to sneak a bite constantly. he's quick and gets it before I can stop him. it takes a lot to get him to lift his head up. that's why, if I can derail that thought when it's gossamer light, I do.

and, my point was more about how the leadline is not a dead thing in your hand. you can actually communicate a lot wiht out moving your arm, without a wiggle, or a pull. mearly by closing your hand on the rope, just like you would on the rein.


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## Hondo

I know, I just wanted to type something, anything 

Hondo has this habit sometimes of jerking his head a little just before we start walking. I may try your trick and just let the rope be loose in my hand so there is nothing to jerk against. That might take the fun out of it for him.


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## tinyliny

when you start leading off, is hondo looking at you? or looking somewhere else? try this; before you lead off, do just enough that he ****** his ears and looks at you, then incline your upper body ever so slightly in the direction that you are going to walk off, and then start walking. this is to see if by getting his attention, and broadcasting your intention, he doesn't get ready and start off WITH you instead of being late enough that he gets bumped by the rope tightening.


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## Hondo

All of the above. Sometimes he starts walking right beside me on my first step, all the way to the yard/pen.

Other times I suspect he is listening for the herd thinking they may be coming adjacent to the field. So he's hesitant.

Other times it's like, "all you have down there is dry bermuda grass hay. green bermuda grass is better and I just started eating again after a rest". I'm not ready.

On both of those occasions I get a "feeling" that he's saying, " ok, you pull on me, i'll pull on you". Just a little toss back with his head and he comes. He does that when I rein him in for a stop and I'm distracted by ponying Dragon and keep hauling the reins after he's stopped. He tosses his head, "hey, wake up, i stopped already".

None of it is a problem enough for me to care to really address by training. He's a good horse and does what I want. He gives me a lot.

But I think it might be interesting to watch him carefully and have my hand open when he tosses what may be a salute at me and finds nothing at the other end of the rope. I'm looking at it as a friend playing a trick back on a friend. Sort of. It's hard sometimes not to anthropomorphize Hondo.

Did you know a horse named Hondo was Ray Hunt's very first horse?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> are you wearting a gopro? on chest, head?
> 
> what is the footing in their little run in paddock? looks almost like sand.
> 
> one small, tiny, itsy bitsy suggestion I learned from a European lady, regarding lunging; she said to hold the lunge line as if it were a rein. so, literally, you hold the lungeline in the same way you would hold the reins. it's amazing, but it gives you a much firmer grip when you need it, and a softer grip when you dont'. you can transmit a feel down it the same way you can on a rein, just by closing or openning your hand.


It's a Gopro Hero 4 on a chest strap. Normally the footage is much more clear, but it was really close to dark (plus cloudy) and I don't think the settings were correct for low light. I'm lazy about learning how to change all the settings, so I make my husband do it. 

Yes, the footing in the horses' runs is sand. Pretty much all the horses live on sand. The barn is about a half mile from the ocean, so is on reclaimed dunes. My dad says that when he was young (he's 82), there was only sand dunes between the highway and the ocean. At some point they did lots of planting to try to stabilize the dunes. This planting included some very invasive species such as the Scotch Broom which is nearly impossible to control, and creates clouds of pollen many are allergic to.








But now thousands of people live on that land, and there are large areas of grass such as the pasture our horses are on. But everything underneath is sand, so wherever the horses congregate a lot the sand gets exposed. The horses are in small corrals at night so the larger grass areas don't get too worn down - otherwise the sand will get exposed and blow away. 

Thank you for the tip on holding the lunge line. I hadn't thought about holding it like that, although I do hold long lines that way and also driving reins. I confess I am not very thoughtful about lunging when it comes to cueing and finesse. When I get a horse, I teach them how to go around in a circle, make it larger or smaller, to not pull against me and to change gaits up and down with voice, body language and whip commands. Usually I keep the line quite slack, and use a super light line which I've been talked to about before. 

Some have encouraged me to use a heavier line or yacht rope, one that transmits some intention. But my Arabs are super light and don't ever pull or try to run off. They will usually speed up and slow down when you lift an arm, turn your body a certain way, or change where you are on the drive line, etc. Sometimes for fun I stare at their hind hooves, and watch them speed up. Someone told me sensitive horses will do this, and it's true. I usually don't use gloves, although I have lunged other types of horses where I used both a heavier line and gloves and saw the benefit.

Once my horses know how to lunge, I generally only use it on occasion. Mainly I use it to assess lameness, to exercise a horse into a level of fitness where I can begin riding (both of these uses are currently why I am lunging Halla), or to provide some body work for loosening or strengthening on circles. 
But I don't bother much with having horses do sharp transitions, reverse in a particular direction, stop on a dime, or many other exercises I've observed some trainers doing. Now if I work a horse in long lines, I do more of that type of thing. But to me, lunging is basically a way to have your horse out where you can observe them, and I don't do a ton of training on the line. I'm completely open to all suggestions and better ways of doing things. 



> (@Hondo) I'm betting if Halla had said, "Oh Gottatrot, that's to die for, just one bite?", she'd have gotten it.


Definitely. They will take a little break once in awhile, and if it's justified I will let them. It just depends on my reason for lunging. If we're there to do ten minutes of trotting because I can't ride...no breaks!



> (@Horseluvr2524) I've never much understood the point of halter fleeces. Shan is pretty thin skinned in her summer coat, and even with all of her crazy antics she's never rubbed herself, and I've always used nylon halters.


That would be great if you came back to OR! Hopefully I could round up another horse for you to ride. By summer I would guess Halla could handle a solid ride, and I could always hop on Nala. 
There is no point to halter fleeces, I think you're right. Why I have halter fleeces is because I read a book when I was a little girl called A Very Young Rider.








The girl on the book asked for a pony for Christmas, and got one. Her pony wore halter fleeces, and due to my jealousy of her I always wanted a pony with a fuzzy halter too. So when I got horses, they got fuzzy halters. Which are very impractical and silly, and don't prevent rubbing (which I've never had a problem with either). They attract dirt, fall off, and yet I still have a fondness for the look of them. To me I believe they represented all the pampering I wished I could give the pony I never had.

I brought Halla's toes back again, which made her soles too close to the ground at the toe for my liking. Although I didn't take the toes down at all, there is not much wall there for protection, so I put the boots on for several days. I'll see how she feels at the end of next week, and if we're ready for some light riding.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Although I didn't take the toes down at all, there is not much wall there for protection, so I put the boots on for several days.


I have not read this at all so take it FWIW. I have always sort of figured that Gene O. brings the breakover back from the bottom in order to leave more wall for protection at the toe.

Or does that apply to what you're saying?

I'm assuming you WILL post a note of release from your vet online before riding? JK 

Boy that year went by fast!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I have not read this at all so take it FWIW. I have always sort of figured that Gene O. brings the breakover back from the bottom in order to leave more wall for protection at the toe.
> 
> Or does that apply to what you're saying?
> 
> I'm assuming you WILL post a note of release from your vet online before riding? JK
> 
> Boy that year went by fast!


I'm not sure if it makes a difference whether you take the breakover back from the bottom or top...basically I've tried both ways in the past and it seems you end up with the same thing. Because the hoof wall grows down and forward, essentially if you take enough of it back, you end up with the sole at the same level as the wall or even slightly higher if you have some separation going on.
Does that make sense?

What I don't want is this type of thing, because imagine how long it will take that hoof wall to reach the ground in order to provide protection for the sole.








This is more similar to my trim at the toe, with the hoof wall as close to the ground as I can leave it while bringing the breakover back. I have left the hoof wall around the hoof at least 1/8" inch above the sole except at the toe because I want to avoid having my horse walking just on the sole with no hoof wall supporting. The heels are a bit taller to provide a better attachment angle as the hoof grows down.









I couldn't get the pics off my phone because I don't have a cable with me. But finally I can see the new growth coming down from the top of the hoof, nice and tight. I am guessing about six-eight weeks growth based on how much I usually trim off the bottom. It is tough seeing and feeling how far that ring growing down the hoof deviated out from where it was supposed to be. I have heard so many times from people about how rings on the hoof are from "feed changes." Uh, not exactly. "Feed changes," if you mean your horse developed laminitis from what you fed him. 

Yeah, the vet thought Halla was cleared to ride at the last x-rays, but that was way too soon in my opinion. But I don't really know, not having gone through this before. Originally I thought many months. Since then, I've read that once the hoof is stabilized, it is fine and exercise can help blood flow/new growth. In my mind there must be a few things in place before riding. The horse has to be moving soundly. The hoof must seem stable. I've waffled about it, one part of me knowing how many horses are being ridden with hooves that have rotated in the past and have laminar wedges in the toes. And how many horses have I ridden where the owners said "thin soles," and they were ouchy on gravel. Which of course means past or even current laminitis. But of course when I say "ride," I don't mean riding like we used to, I mean delicate walks on grass around the field. Similar to our current walks.

Hopefully I don't seem defensive, because I also am trying to use critical thinking about all this to know the correct things to do and the timeline. Any input or criticism is welcomed. 

Some of you on the forum such as @tinyliny are so kind and gentle about advice. Something I've been learning in life is to have a goal of welcoming criticism and to prioritize receiving even harsh input over worrying about my feelings getting hurt. This is very important in my job. Nursing is one job where what you do each day is evaluated and criticized by the people working with you and also coming to follow after you. It is very important, because so many things are extremely important and must be improved on if they possibly can be. 
It's the same with horses. From riding to training to hoof care, critical evaluation is important for learning and progress.

So bring it on, and my goal in receiving advice is to not be defensive, but I also don't accept everything I'm told. All advice received in life needs to be evaluated to see if it is logical, if it seems congruent with what facts you already know, and if it fits in with your ethics. I'm happy if someone says "you're doing it wrong," if I am. But I also don't just accept that I am doing it wrong, I need to know why exactly so I can keep on learning. 

I have to say that I appreciate people the most who will listen to what I have to say or watch a video, and then tell me where they disagree. Those people are far more valuable than those who just say, "Great!" or "Nice!" It's the same with my co-workers. I appreciate those who point out where I am wrong, so I can learn and improve.
Unfortunately, there are too few people who will give you input, and then receive your questions or follow up back without getting offended. So many things are just not black and white or cut and dried. I feel that dialogue can help in so many ways, and wish more people were open to it. We need more people with "minds like a steel trap," if that was how you said it, @Hondo.


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## Hondo

The article linked below was written by Gene Ovnicek. It is undated but appears to have been written shortly after 1987. At that time, Gene Ovnicek had been working as a farrier for 35 years. And by his own words, doing many things wrong for the horse.

Gene Ovnicek has no PhD. As far as I know, he has no degree at all. He is not a research scientist. Just a farrier with a deep concern and interest in the equine foot. To me, it is important to remember that when reading his article.

I'm sure there are others, but Gene Ovincek's study is the only I've read where live wild animals were studied rather than cadavers. I think that is really important.

And I would like to call special attention to the 1/3-2/3 ratio. That is the bearing surface and the 1/3 in front of the widest part of the hoof does NOT include the toe in front of the breakover location.

In the article, the breakover location is put at approximately 10 and 2 o'clock. In later articles it is put at a line extending with the slope of P3 to where it would reach the ground, which is around 1/4" in front of a vertical line from P3 to the ground.

In other later articles Gene puts the breakover slope at around 10-15 degrees as most of the weight bearing of the foot has left at that point and the foot is preparing for flight. This removes all pressure on the hoof wall at the toe, or at least most.

Later studies also included thousands of x-rays to measure the distance between the frog apex and the coffin bone. He does note that on many of the x-rays it was unknown if the true apex had been located before marking. But still, the results supported his earlier findings.

I think there are some very definitive points in the article. Gene became a barefoot die hard at one point but finally decided he could help more horses by addressing proper shoeing for foot health since shoeing was to remain for most horses for the foreseeable future. I suspect underneath, he is still somewhat of a barefoot die hard.

So with those rambling comments, here is the short article. For me, Gene Ovnicek and ELPO is my absolute guide to hoof trimming.

Wild Horse Hoof Pattern Offers

Correction: I just went to the site of the article and it appears to have been written in 20022


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...Correction: I just went to the site of the article and it appears to have been written in 20022


And by then they OUGHT to KNOW!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> And I would like to call special attention to the 1/3-2/3 ratio. That is the bearing surface and the 1/3 in front of the widest part of the hoof does NOT include the toe in front of the breakover location.
> 
> In the article, the breakover location is put at approximately 10 and 2 o'clock. In later articles it is put at a line extending with the slope of P3 to where it would reach the ground, which is around 1/4" in front of a vertical line from P3 to the ground.
> 
> In other later articles Gene puts the breakover slope at around 10-15 degrees as most of the weight bearing of the foot has left at that point and the foot is preparing for flight. This removes all pressure on the hoof wall at the toe, or at least most.


I'm not sure exactly what the point is being made? I agree very much about where the breakover is. I guess the question is what is to be done with the toe wall past the breakover? 
There is a difference between having a nice, thick sole ridge on the ground at the proper breakover with the toe wall giving support just past that point, with the toe wall beveled...








And a rotated hoof with a toe wedge that sticks out more than an inch past the breakover, past a thin sole...








In the above photo you will notice that the breakover has not been brought back (see where the tip of the frog is), and the hoof is not going to grow down connected just by beveling the outer wall. That toe wedge has to be trimmed off to the true breakover.

I don't want to put pressure on that sole at the tip of the coffin bone for a long period of time, because I don't want any remodeling. If I bring that toe back to where the breakover is supposed to be (an inch past the tip of the frog), I want to keep the wall down as close to the ground as possible. I also want to cut it back some, rather than having a 15 degree slope that goes along for inches as it slopes up and away, making it take longer for the wall to ever grow down and into a supportive role as seen in the first photo. 

So I think if you put that sole on the ground at the toe in a hoof like this, you need shoes or boots on to protect the coffin bone. Once the hoof wall grows down to the sole (as in the top pic), if the horse is sound you can leave the boots or shoes off. But often you will go back the other way again after another trim, as the wedge is growing out. 
That's my experience anyway. Did that have anything to do with the question?


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> And by then they OUGHT to KNOW!


Hmm, doubt it. They'll probably still be debating by then. :grin:


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## Hondo

True, the debate may never end.

Ok, the top picture, to me, looks as close to perfect as perfect can get. I do not see the hoof wall at the toe being in a supporting role, other than when it sinks into soft terrain. Otherwise, by the time it starts to contact the terrain, the hoof is in flight. At least that is what I understand from Gene's work.

I have Pete's DVD, In The Trenches, where he actually saws off about 6 inches of toe while the horse is lying on his side. The hoof in the second picture is not that bad but is definitely in the same class. Agreed, the 15 degree slope there would not cut it anymore than with Ramey's example.

I should have qualified, or perhaps Gene O. should have, that the bevel is intended for a horse with reasonable proportions or close to it. I have videos of Gene also taking the toe straight back prior to sloping. So no, there can't be inches of sloping, but I can see how what I posted could be misread.

I understand exactly what you are saying about not wanting pressure of the tip of P3 that could cause remodeling. And along those lines my early worry was about enough pressure on the thin sole to cause penetration. Happily she's apparently past that point of worry.

But here's the flip side of leaving toe to protect the tip of the coffin. And it is beyond my experience or knowledge to guess where the in between point should be. But I'll use a huge exaggeration to describe what I mean. Exaggeration is actually a design technique used by engineers in mentally evaluating some situations.

Say you left a lot lot of wall height and length to protect the coffin. That could result in more rotation of the hoof capsule causing the sole to press up against the coffin. (at least it seems to me) And capsule rotation at least in extreme situations can and does cause remodeling.

But then yeah, if a normal trim is done, you've got the terrain hammering on the sole beneath the tip of the coffin. And that's scary too.

She's in soft terrain and by the x-rays she's doing great so you must be doing something right. It's just worrisome.

And everything I've read is that the foot flexing under pressure/release is what every hoof needs, healthy or otherwise. And you're giving her lots of that with more coming.

But once the hoof is healthy and back to normal, I still believe the toe needs to be sloped as in the first picture and per Gene's work to take pressure off the capsule. The toe callus that grows from the capsule is reported to be much harder and tougher that the hoof wall. Pillar to pillar and on around to the quarters.

There's few things I'd rather do than talk about the horse's hoof. I learn something every time I open my mouth.

Edit: The sloping of the toe BTW starts about 1/4 inch in front of the tip of P3 so nothing should be taken off the sole under the tip of P3. I don't remember if you put markers on the frog, I'll go look. If not, hopefully next time. I want x-rays of Hondo's feet but haven't been able. I just want to KNOW.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> There's few things I'd rather do than talk about the horse's hoof. I learn something every time I open my mouth.


Same here. At one time I thought hooves were somewhat simple and/or boring. Now I find them very complex and interesting.



Hondo said:


> Ok, the top picture, to me, looks as close to perfect as perfect can get. I do not see the hoof wall at the toe being in a supporting role, other than when it sinks into soft terrain. Otherwise, by the time it starts to contact the terrain, the hoof is in flight. At least that is what I understand from Gene's work.


Yes, that is true when it comes to breakover. However, we can't just think of the hoof in motion, because horses spend a lot of time standing still, moving slowly and grazing. The hoof wall does play a supportive role. Past the breakover this is not necessarily support of the horse's weight, but support meaning retention and protection of the sole from where it grows down from the corium to the ground at the toe. 
And not only support, but sole growth comes from the hoof wall passing the sole junction, which adds depth to the hoof. You can discover this if you take a hoof and trim new wall growth down very often, such as every two weeks, so the wall never gets taller than the sole. If you do this, the sole will never add depth and may lose depth _even if you never trim the sole_. 

The trim with the lovely slope to the wall on the perfect hoof is only done every four to six weeks. In the meantime, the toe wall grows and sole depth is added. So the hoof is trimmed that way - versus a horse running over rough, dry terrain might wear off all growth as it happens, and the hoof will remain in a stasis state with sole/hoof wall height and depth remaining the same. Without this wear, we see growth between trims, and add wall and sole. 
It's rare though that our domestic horses ever need sole trimmed.


Hondo said:


> But here's the flip side of leaving toe to protect the tip of the coffin. And it is beyond my experience or knowledge to guess where the in between point should be. But I'll use a huge exaggeration to describe what I mean. Exaggeration is actually a design technique used by engineers in mentally evaluating some situations.
> 
> Say you left a lot lot of wall height and length to protect the coffin. That could result in more rotation of the hoof capsule *causing the sole to press up against the coffin. *(at least it seems to me) And capsule rotation at least in extreme situations can and does cause remodeling.


Most everything you said I agree with. But the coffin bone is not at risk from sole itself, only from lack of it. You can have horses with massively thick soles, and you could remove the hoof wall so they were walking right on the sole and the horses would be sound and the coffin bone protected. The sole protects the coffin bone. It's the ground that causes damage, due to lack of sole protection. 



Hondo said:


> But once the hoof is healthy and back to normal, I still believe the toe needs to be sloped as in the first picture and per Gene's work to take pressure off the capsule. The toe callus that grows from the capsule is reported to be much harder and tougher that the hoof wall. Pillar to pillar and on around to the quarters.


Yes, I believe this is important too. One reason is that if you somehow lose connection due to inflammation, even slightly, pressure on the toe wall is going to promote the wall "flaring" or pulling away from the coffin bone as it grows. If you have a tightly connected, steep hoof with no inflammation, this is never going to happen even if you have long walls at the toe. But for proper function of the leg above, to prevent strain on the ligaments and tendons and even stumbling injuries, the breakover needs to be correct and the wall sloped up as a horse would naturally wear it on rough terrain. 
I think the toe callus is only tough if it is in the right place, grown thick under the tip of the coffin bone and not if the sole has stretched out thinly as it grew down from the sole corium under a toe wedge. 

The biomechanics of how the leg is made to work means that if everything is correctly aligned under the bones, the physics of it will create wear in the proper places and everything will be super strong and tough. If the hoof is stretched forward, with the sole and wall far out in front of where they should be, they will be thin and fragile and will wear easily and break off.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Past the breakover this is not necessarily support of the horse's weight, but support meaning retention and protection of the sole from where it grows down from the corium to the ground at the toe.


Agreed. The thought seems to now be that protection of the innards of the foot is the main purpose/function of the hoof capsule even though it does usually play some partial role in weight support.



gottatrot said:


> You can discover this if you take a hoof and trim new wall growth down very often, such as every two weeks, so the wall never gets taller than the sole. If you do this, the sole will never add depth and may lose depth even if you never trim the sole.


I'm wondering about this. Hondo's GC's were pulled last October after being in them for five months, with resets and replacements. Since then, Hondo's breakover has not been trimmed by me at all. He has a soft hoof capsule and keeps the wall at the toe trimmed to the sole callus which is now very prominent with a now well developed concavity. As the concavity deepens, the sole gets thicker as concavity is a main indicator of sole thickness. So Hondo's continual daily trimming of the toe rocker has not reduced sole thickness and it has apparently gotten even thicker.



gottatrot said:


> The sole protects the coffin bone.


I would qualify this somewhat by saying a very special structure formed by both the sole and from horn tubules referred to as the sole callus protects the coffin bone. When this structure is pulled out from under the coffin bone when the hoof capsule becomes stretched forward, the coffin bone is sitting on sole only which does not afford proper protection of the coffin bone. Not to mention reduced blood circulation from the pressure of the coffin bone on arteries. The sole callus was once thought to be a result of compaction sort of like our own calluses on our feet and hands hence the name callus which is misleading now. I prefer some other term such as the "crazy lady's" toe stay but that is misleading also as the structure runs all around the perimeter of the coffin bone.



gottatrot said:


> The biomechanics of how the leg is made to work means that if everything is correctly aligned under the bones, the physics of it will create wear in the proper places and everything will be super strong and tough.


But only if there is adequate movement over adequate terrain. Dragon has genetically hard hoof horn. I just trimmed over 1/2 inch of hoof wall off at the quarters. It would take a LOT of movement to trim those feet. Even though he appears to have a tight connection at the ground level, by measurements from his frog the toe has stretched forward so the connection must not be there internally. That has me scratching my head some. But never-the-less I am rockering the toe back to 1 1/4 from the frog apex. I don't feel comfortable going closer than 1 1/4" without an x-ray.



gottatrot said:


> But for proper function of the leg above, to prevent strain on the ligaments and tendons and even stumbling injuries, the breakover needs to be correct and the wall sloped up as a horse would naturally wear it on rough terrain.


Agreed, and it is not stressed enough. And also the navicular. The bad thing is that the horse's hoof is so tough and adaptive that it can be mismanaged without any apparent damage except that at 20 years they may be ready for retirement when they could have gone to 30.

Too many people seem to think if the horse is not limping, their feet are fine!


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## Hondo

Here is Hondo's RF after a ride today, sand and all. He wore boots so his feet are wet.

I cut off a bit of his toe in the picture but you can see that his white line is off the ground. He has a nice "coffin stay" all the way around.

My thumb is exactly 1 inch between the frog and the beginning of the coffin stay.

He has sole build up at the quarters like he did about this time last year with the laminae missing between the retained sole and capsule. Last year I was worried about a place for infection to start. Now I just add a little CS powder to his boots and he gets a treatment while we ride.

His toe has not been trimmed at all for five months.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I don't feel comfortable going closer than 1 1/4" without an x-ray.


Agree with the last post. But as you've pointed out to me, the information promoted by ELPO has been tested on many, many horses with supporting x-rays. That is enough evidence for me since my horses are smaller that 1 inch to the toe callus is going to be a safe distance to trim to. I've seen too many hooves that had nice, tight hoof capsules on the outside with xrays that showed the breakover was too far forward. 
The sole can stretch quite nicely forward just as the frog can, and of course we know the callus can "appear" too far forward. 
Such as in this hoof, I am sure the callus/toe stay is not in the right place.
There are a few indicators of hoof health, including the angles from the side, and a front hoof should appear round when viewed from the bottom rather than oval. 
Amore's club hoof which she has always been sound on almost certainly has coffin bone remodeling from poor management when she was young. But the white line looks extremely tight, although the hoof is oval shaped. Club hooves are ones you don't necessarily follow the same rules with. 








How is Hondo's soundness by now? If he is getting nice sole depth I am guessing he's doing pretty good. Of course I've seen that with some horses that never had the chance to develop a hard digital cushion, they might always be a little tender in the heel area even when the capsule is healthy and has good sole depth. 
His hooves look good. Nice job.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I have to ask. What is the purpose in removing a false sole? We have been letting our horses shed it naturally rather than knifing it out artificially. They seem to do fine this way. We are in a dry environment so not worried about thrush developing. They shed it before it gets to pressing on the hoof wall.

Not our horses but similar


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## Hondo

Hondo is sounder barefoot than he has ever been. He goes through rocky areas now that in the past he used to beg to turn around and go somewhere else (which we did).

That said, his feet do not match Dragon's in the rocks. But Dragon has never been shod. From what I read, Hondo's feet should gradually get a little better over more time but I suspect he will always need protection for the really rugged trails.

I rode him over some pretty hard stuff not long ago that he was not complaining about but he broke a large chunk out of the side of one heel. His horn is just so much softer than Dragon's cast iron horn. Dragon's mom has the same hard feet. And so does his sister.

Having the toe stay pulled forward is what held me back with Hondo for at least 1 1/2 years. I just did not want to put a rasp to it per Ramey's exhortations until actually when I first watched the "crazy lady's" first video showing the cadaver with the toe stay/callus pulled forward.

Hondo's foot measures exactly the same in width and length, and one of Gene's videos shows his thumb exactly as mine between the frog and the beginning of the callus so I "fairly" comfortable. But I do intend to get x-ray back up. I've got a mind that wants to know if the light in the refrigerator really does go out when the door is closed.

Hondo's frog still looks thin, pointy, and stretched which worries me but digging out the point of it shows what is supposed to be the true apex.

Gene's x-ray evaluation did mention 1"-1 1/4" as the range for size 1-2 as I recall.

In addition I use a short straight edge on the front of the hoof capsule to eyeball any slight dishing to estimate toe stretching. That encouraged me to rasp right on through his callus in the past when I realized the callus wasn't doing anything out there beyond his coffin.

Gene goes to great length to identify the widest part of the foot. At first it seemed to me that he went overboard but I now understand that using the three methods and being as accurate as possible is to locate the tip of the coffin bone as accurately as possible without an x-ray. And that's important. Proper breakover location may be the single most important thing to be done in foot maintenance. And that's not taking anything away from heel height as that can be a big influence on breakover location by shoving the sole forward.

Writing this stuff down, stuff I know and I'm sure you do also, organizes my mind about the factors discussed and sort of confirms it.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I have to ask. What is the purpose in removing a false sole? We have been letting our horses shed it naturally rather than knifing it out artificially. They seem to do fine this way. We are in a dry environment so not worried about thrush developing. They shed it before it gets to pressing on the hoof wall.
> 
> Not our horses but similar


If they are barefoot and balanced, I don't see a reason myself. With uncertainty about balance, removal of the retained sole at the seat of corn and adjacent to the quarters at the WPF allows a trim that is balanced to the live sole.

On a foot that has a stretched toe, Gene Ovincek will exfoliate the toe to find the raised portion of the sole where the coffin bone is sitting. I'm not comfortable doing that.

When shoeing, the shoes need to rest near the live sole at the heel and toe. At the quarters which are arched up a little, some dead sole can be left. Treated material is often placed between the capsule and dead sole at this location to prevent infections from beginning.

Nice thing about GC's is that the quarters can be parred down to live sole as the GC's are flexible. But the curve must be gradual through the heels and not reverse as in a rockered heel or the shoe won't stay flat at the heel.

Other that that mentioned, I don't know of any other reason for removing dead sole.

Oh yeah. At the true frog apex for estimating the location of the tip of coffin is another place/reason.

Edit: Looking at that picture, can't tell for certain, but the heels do not look balanced. If I had that foot in my hand the first thing I would want to do would be to trim the seat of corn down to live sole to determine balance. Then I'd lift the tip of the frog and cut it off and determine the true apex.

Edit 2: On a pigeon toed horse the quarters always need to be pared down to live sole to balance the trim as there is a lot more wear on one side than the other. Same with cow hocked.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I don't now, but when I was younger, I was barefoot from May-end of August. Hot pavement, rocks, no problem. My mother was always concerned that I had such rough feet and would try to use a pumice stone to remove my callouses. Talk about footsore! A couple of times letting her do that and I was done. Didn't care if I had ugly feet, they were practical.

Though it might go against conventional thought, I see that false sole as being an additional cushion for the horse. When they don't need it anymore, it falls off and the process starts all over again. 

Bella is the only one who has a propensity for flaring and at one point when she first came to stay with us (from a mud pit of a pasture) had seedy toe; her hooves grow like crazy even in the winter. Now she gets her toes brought back every two weeks and seems to be doing better. She isn't sensitive on hard ground or gravel anymore.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Though it might go against conventional thought, I see that false sole as being an additional cushion for the horse. When they don't need it anymore, it falls off and the process starts all over again.


Not against conventional thought at all. Wild horses in the rocks are known to have soles twice as thick as domestically held horses. And half of that is dead retained sole. When the ground gets wet and soft, they will shed it when no longer needed. Horse's feet are amazing.


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## gottatrot

I've seen a couple of reasons to help get rid of the false sole. The first is what we run into here - the weather changes from very dry to very wet. When it's very dry, the hooves retain a lot of sole as their natural way of having more protection as was mentioned. 

What has happened to me is that I spend time doing a trim just after the wet weather has come in, and then several days later a lot of sole falls out and my hoof walls are now quite long in comparison to the sole. So if I see that the weather has changed and the retained sole is loose, I will flake it out so I don't have to do another trim in a few days.

The other reason is something I have seen in very dry environments where the horse does not get enough wear and also the soles never have moisture to help them shed out. The hooves can get very tall to the point where the frogs are off the ground and up inside the capsule, and the sole still goes down to the ground. In that case, you want to remove some of the outer wall and sole down to a more natural hoof height, so the horse doesn't have unnatural angles and strain the tendons.

I've seen hooves like this and taller with the sole retained inside. No horse needs that much sole and wall - it can become detrimental.


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## gottatrot

Forgot, one more reason why I've removed retained sole:
Sometimes farriers will not touch overgrown bars and just put a shoe on. You can end up with this type of situation:








The bars grow flat over the sole and prevent it from shedding naturally. When you trim the bars back, there is often a lot of excess sole under here that should come out in order to clean up the seat of corn, if you are so lucky to not have an abscess brewing under here already.


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## gottatrot

Did my first ride on Halla today!

We walked around the pasture rim, between 1/4 and a half mile. 

I know many people say horses would rather just be out in their field with friends, but Halla is one of those horses that enjoys work. You should have seen her face, she was quite pleased when I brought her out and put her saddle on. Horses smile with their whole body, you know? They grow a couple inches taller and puff up.
I've had dogs that would rather laze around and some that are deliriously happy about going out to work, so I believe horses are the same. People too, perhaps? 

I try not to let anthropomorphism affect how I treat horses. But it is fun to imagine little stories about animals and what they think. I could imagine Nala meeting up with Halla at the water trough and spouting off about all the great rides she's been going on, the horses she's meeting and the places she's seeing. Feeling quite superior, and all that, as the only worldly-wise horse. 

Meanwhile, Halla has been missing out. Finally, she gets to go out and do her own work, which of course is far more important than anything a silly Thoroughbred might do. If she wanted to, she could run farther and faster than any other horse. It's just that she's too busy or can't be bothered sometimes, etc.

Sometimes I think I can feel soundness and unsoundness better than I can see it. When I first noticed Halla's laminitis, it was when I took her out for a ride and then hopped off pretty quickly, feeling that she was off. I've wondered if I would feel something when I finally got on to ride, but she felt great and was striding out very well at the walk. At least on soft ground, she is sound. So we will take it very easy and do these little walks, adding on a bit over time and with hoof growth.

After our short ride, I took Amore and Halla around one more loop, stopping at the end so they could graze. The grass was thick, green and over their pasterns so they were quite happy about the destination. Amore is completely happy with her retired life, believe me. She never was one that loved work like Halla. She is quite happy to see me coming, and to only have outings for fun and food but no hard exercise.

Of course, my leg muscles felt goofy after even such a short ride. I've been running a lot, both because I haven't been riding and also because we bought a very nice treadmill a month or so ago. But as we all know, being in shape for one thing doesn't mean you have conditioned the right muscles for something else, so my legs wanted to be tight in the wrong places and loose in the wrong places.

That being said, getting on a horse felt like coming home. I don't know how I would ever live without it. It's a feeling of absolute rightness, of aligning my body with mind and soul. Even ten minutes on a horse worked some kind of magic on me, and a part of me that was missing for awhile is back in its rightful place.


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## gottatrot

Hope everyone had a great Easter. We celebrated more earlier in the week since it was my husband's birthday, and we visited with family then. We're going to a tulip festival tomorrow.

Amore was bonkers today. I mean totally nuts. 

I put the horses out in a small field temporarily tonight while I cleaned their stalls and pens. This field is close to the creek, and apparently some flies were buzzing around. Amore has sweet itch, so is particularly sensitive to midges. 

When I was done cleaning stalls, I went into the goat pen and trimmed the goat hooves. I kept hearing loud snorts and pounding noises, so finished quickly and went to check on the horses. 
Amore looked like she'd burrowed underground somehow, with muck all over, even covering her ears. They were galloping around, which wasn't good since that field is supposed to be resting and growing. So I quickly pulled the horses out and tied them, planning to trim Amore's hooves.

Amore was trying to scratch her stomach by doing a double barrel maneuver with both hind hooves. I squelched some of the muck off and scratched her belly really well with a long bristled brush, then put fly spray on her. 
As I trimmed her front hooves, Amore continued flinging one hind hoof up and out. I warned her a couple times. She did try flinging both hind hooves while standing on just one front (since I was trimming the other), but I told her that wasn't acceptable.

She stopped temporarily while I trimmed the hinds, but the second I finished she threw a hind up to the side higher than her own flank and caught me with it. 
She'd been thinking that flies were the most important thing in the world. Suddenly she realized flies were NOT the most important thing, and we locked eyes. Hers nearly popped out of her head and she backed to the end of her lead as I explained _clearly_ to her that she had made a bad mistake.

Halla stood next to Amore, so smugly. It was time to trim her hind hooves, since I'd only done her front hooves last week. Her hinds look quite perfect, by the way, with no apparent effects from the laminitis. 
She rarely ever stands perfectly to have her hinds trimmed without pulling away once, but I swear it was making her feel superior to be well behaved when Amore was in trouble. She picked up each hoof before I asked, planted it into my hands and even held up all her weight without leaning while I filed. She looked over at Amore with her nose in the air. 

I decided to put Halla's Renegade Viper boots on her front hooves with the pads from her Ghost boots. It seemed to work very well, and she was able to walk out without me worrying about her hitting gravel or chunks of wood in the field.

I'd thought to make things easy for Halla by putting Amore in the outdoor arena while we rode around the field. However, Amore took off the moment I let her loose, as if a coyote was hanging onto her tail. She bolted around, crashing over the jump blocks and snorting loudly. 
I got on Halla and we started walking, but she spooked a couple times _*at Amore*_. She was that crazy it was like she was going to leap over the railing on top of us or something. 

I took Halla away, far across the field. Of course, once we were off on our own, Amore's crazy antics began to make sense to Halla. Maybe she was right - maybe she knew about some danger out here. 
Halla did a couple little galumphs and kafuffels and skitters sideways. Then she took a good look at Amore, decided she _was_ nuts and then we walked calmly around for a few minutes. 
We went back and walked around the outer border of the arena, at which point Amore finally settled and started grazing. 
Halla moved well and it was a nice, short little ride. 

Afterward I had to spend quite a long time raking over the giant craters and skid marks Amore had put in the arena. We're supposed to leave it nice for the next person, and it looked like someone had turned a herd of buffalo loose in there.
Amore didn't harm herself or even turn a hair, and appeared quite calm eating her hay when I left. Silly horse.


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## horseluvr2524

YAY! So glad you are riding Halla again! I know what that's like riding your horse SOUND after they've been unsound for a while. It's relieving and terrifying. I still find myself occasionally analyzing every step Shan takes compulsively looking for arthritic symptoms. I never find any.

Maybe the Animed Immuaid would help Amore? It stopped Shan's itching completely. She doesn't even make itchy faces anymore when I scratch her- she has no itches to scratch! She does still show bug bites, but they are small and disappear within a couple days rather than sticking around and turning into itchy hives.


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## gottatrot

I'll try the ImmuAid, it's worth a shot. Amore's sweet itch symptoms began to get better several years ago, which was strange I thought because usually it gets worse with age. But it made sense when I discovered she had Cushing's, which makes the body produce too much Cortisol. Cortisol is our body's natural form of a steroid, which is an immune suppressant. So when I started Amore on the medication for Cushing's, I noticed right away her allergies got worse, probably because her immune system was working better again. Ugh. But the depressed immune system puts a horse with Cushing's life at risk because any little infection can get out of control, so I'd rather deal with allergies for sure.

We went to see rainbow colored tulips in the rain today. I thought the rain brought out the colors.


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## Hondo

I'm taking note of the Animed Immuaid. I read some rave reviews on Buggzo and am using that at the moment. Seems to be helping but the jury is still out. Fingers crossed. I am also treating his mane with a mixture of Aloe Vera and powdered sulfur.

Immuaid and Buggzo both have garlic.

Immuaid:

Ingredients (min./oz.): 
DMG: 2000mg
l-Lysine: 140,000mg
Vitamin A: 140,000 IU
Zinc: 1600mg
Vitamin C: 1500 mg
Vitamin E: 1000 IU
Bioflavonoid: 885 mg

Other Ingredients:
Rice Bran, BYW-35, Garlic, Echinacea

Directions for use:
For an average 1,000 lb. horse, give 1/2 oz. daily.

BUGGZO:

Dried Apple Cider Vinegar, Garlic Powder, Yeast Culture, Brewers Yeast, Diatomaceous Earth, Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Thiamine Monohydrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacinamide, Grapeseed Extract, Vegetable Oil.


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

That is gorgeous! I'm guessing those are planted fields of tulips, not wild?

Supposedly Animed Immuaid is an immune booster. I think it was originally developed for horses with cough... seeing as how it says 'respiratory' in big letters on the side.
@Hondo

Just to clarify, Immuaid is NOT a bug deterrent type supplement. It is an immune booster. It is working for my mare similar to an anti-histamine in that it stops her allergic reaction, but it does not stop her from getting bit.
I tried out straight garlic for a while and saw no difference against bugs. Supposedly garlic is very helpful for keeping ticks off, but we don't have those problems here in my area.


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## Hondo

It seems, from my reading, that the really frustrating thing about sweet itch is that what works or helps for one horse has no effect on another horse. One product that gets rave reviews on the five star list has others on the one star list that saw no difference.

Last year I concluded there was no way to stop all the bites and since a single bite can set off an allergic reaction I decided to try antihistamine with a prescription of hydroxyzine to be given night and morning for 50 days. Saw absolutely no difference where others saw remarkable results.

So this year I'm back with an effort to stop the bites again. So far his mane is longer than it has ever been. But it's early yet. He is scratching some but not enough to remove much hair.

Along with the Buggzo I'm adding sulfur to his mane. MTG works but the oil sunburns. Sulfur was supposed to be the main thing that helped so I bought some powder to administer without the oil.

I apply antibiotic ointment liberally to bite areas on his midline daily followed with diaper cream as I've read the bugs can't bite through the zinc.

He still scratches his belly some but not as much and it is really improving. There is lots of standing water around so it's a battle.

His face and chin also itches very bad. Not sure what that is from. When scratching with my fingernails, dead dry skin comes to the surface. Not sure what to try but he really experiences a lot of discomfort in that area. Maybe some aloe vera there.


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## knightrider

You've probably heard all this, but my heart is aching for you, Hondo. We were trying to decide whether or not to put down my son's gelding because he was suffering so terribly from sweet itch. He had it all over and I had tried everything with no success. I finally found success by standing him under a fan in his stall all night. I had to stall another horse next to him so he wouldn't be miserable and fret being alone. It was very inconvenient, but it worked really well. As his sweet itch healed, I was able to stand him under the fan only at dusk and dawn. That was also inconvenient because no matter where I was or what I was doing as dusk started to fall, I had to rush home and get him in the barn. And there was never EVER any sleeping in as he had to be under the fan at dawn. But at least I wasn't cleaning two stalls a day and buying (in Melbourne, FL) very expensive hay when I had 40 acres of lush grass.

We moved 3 1/2 hours north and suddenly--no sweet itch, ever! I have since read that there are different no-see-ums species in different areas and some horses are allergic to some no-see-ums and not allergic to other ones.

If it gets too terrible, you could contemplate moving. It's not why we moved, but it was a nice surprise to find no more troubles and years more of enjoying a wonderful loved horse.


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## Hondo

Oh man! Hondo is nothing like that. But any discomfort of his is a discomfort of mine. If he was bad enough to contemplate putting him down, (which could never happen), I'd definitely move.

I've read about the fans and the difficulty noseeums have in flying. Hondo is on 24/7 turn out and there is no stall. And I'm on solar. I have definitely noticed that when there is a breeze he is not scratching during morning or evening hours.

I actually made some adds to put up, and put them up for about a week before taking them down, looking for another place. But where I am is almost to kill for and it's highly unlikely I could ever find another as desirable. 

Plus I'm using two other horses that are not mine, at least yet, that I'd hate to leave. Particularly Dragon who stays in the yard with me for longer and longer periods after the Rimmey and Hondo have left. He just likes to hang around investigating whatever I'm doing and generally getting in the way. I'm really enjoying him and would hate to leave him behind.

I've also read where others have moved and the itch cleared up. But the combination of what I'm doing "seems" to be working so far, fingers crossed.

I'm sure glad I found out how rewarding a relationship with a horse is BEFORE I discovered how much care they need!


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## gottatrot

And if anyone gets desperate about the itching, the Boett blankets work 100%. I've had mine for years, and if I make a mistake and let things get out of control to where Amore starts losing a lot of mane or tail, or is seriously rubbing, I just throw it on for a week or two until things die down. It is so thin a horse can wear it even on a hot day without getting sweaty. For Amore the best thing apart from the blanket is DEET spray, just tiny amounts spritzed around the mane and tail base, and under her belly once a day.

There is a funny story about that. Yesterday I sprayed Amore in her stall. I've mentioned how Halla reacts to odors very strongly. Well, several minutes after I sprayed Amore the smell of the spray must have wafted over into Halla's stall. I thought Halla was colicking or going to have a seizure. She started acting so strangely, put her head between her front legs, then her ears and lips started twitching. She kept pawing like she was going to roll, and then she'd stop. Finally I realized it was that smell, and once it blew away on the wind she was normal again. 









The Boett blankets cover the mane base, tail base and under the belly. At least around here, the midge's have a short season where there are tons flying around, so it's a temporary problem unless the itching gets out of control. In that case, I've seen horses that get secondary infections and skin issues, and it becomes something that lasts all summer. As the skin heals, it itches more, and the horse keeps scratching and opening it up again.


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## horseluvr2524

@Hondo

Guess I wasn't paying attention because I didn't realize you were dealing with sweet itch. That sucks, I'm sorry. Shan does not have sweet itch, but some other type of allergy. Even when it was really bad and she rubbed hair off her chest and neck, it was never sweet itch bad.

If sulfur is supposed to help, TSC carries a sulfur salt block. I looked into getting it before but they don't have it at the local stores, so it would have to be shipped in. The sulfur blocks work wonders for some, I've heard.

Here's a weird thing:
My mother has been dealing with some severe allergies on her hands. With all the pollen in the air, it was causing her hands to itch and swell rather severely. She tried everything. Anti-histamines were helping some but were not eliminating the problem.
I mentioned Immuaid saying that we should look at the ingredients that are in it and see if she can find something similar for people. Well, she read what was in it, didn't find anything harmful, and decided to just take it herself! I said "well, you're the dietitian, not me! Better you than I lol". (she works in medical as a dialysis dietitian). Figured out the dosage for her body weight, and she's been taking it for almost a week now. The amazing thing is that it has worked! It has slowly taken away all the swelling and itching where nothing else was helping.


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## Hondo

Ha ha Your mom's not the first person that has found help with veterinarian medications.

I first was thinking neck thread worms but have ruled that out. The other two horses have sweet itch also but not like Hondo.

I also use Deet almost daily also on the mane, tail head, and belly, except where there are bites or sores. And when riding or trimming on the legs also.

The Boett is expensive on a retired budget, but, well, it'd be for Hondo. When the flies are bad he literally helps me put on his fly mask. It'd probably only need to be on a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening? I could just bring him in for that. He might just start coming in for it when he figured out he didn't get bit when wearing it. Wake up Harold, time for my Boett!

I'll check out the sulphur blocks. The stuff I bought was kinda spendy and it's messy mixing it with goop. I'm going to try spraying vinegar on his mane, or ever just water to wet it and put the sulfur in a salt shaker to distribute in his mane.

I have a salt shaker of CS to sprinkle in his boots. Works.

Here I am on a real working cow ranch with a saddle with no horn, helmet with DaBrim, boots on the horse, bitless bridle, if I get a Boett I can just hear it now


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## horseluvr2524

What kind of saddle do you use Hondo? I thought you rode western.

sorry for hijacking your journal gottatrot!


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## Hondo

Gottatrot LIKES her journal to be highjacked! Well, depending.

I have a Crates endurance saddle that I bought soon after I started having Hondo in my care. That was when I thought of a saddle as a sort of backpack for a horse. Buy a saddle, throw it on, go ride.

I'm on the third tree in that saddle. First got rolled in, (lesson learned). Replaced it with stock tree. Discovered it was too narrow and bought another. Now that I fell in the saddle fit rabbit hole I have discovered it is also too narrow. A temporary fix has been made by cutting a huge pie shape out of the front of my $270 Supracor pad. Plus a bunch off the back end as the saddle is too long. The saddle extends past the pad in both the front a rear.

Under construction is a make over of a Haggis Trooper saddle. I'm making a front frame and have been held up as my generator for the welder with kaput. BUT! I did fix it and got back to welding yesterday and ran out of wire today. Will buy more when I got to Prescott Monday to get whittled on some more.

I have a plywood frame made of three points of tracing for Hondo's back. I'll be using a plastic called Kydex to to heat shape bars for the trooper.

The plan is to used the Supracor for the panels under the bars. And maybe the front two air bags of a set of Korrector pads I got off Ebay. Hondo's right shoulder is way bigger than his left. Wondered why his hair was always wavy. Was told it was because we mounted from the left and that pulls the saddle over. Not so. I can see and feel the bigger shoulder.

Oops, uh, you just asked what saddle I had.

Oh well, I'll add that I have a three legged collapsible stool carried always on my saddle also. Not real cowboyish but sometimes there are no rocks, stumps, or logs around and with Hondo's round barrel and my knees the stool is a blessing. 

Fixing the generator was a life saver as that was going to be another $500 dollars out of my budget. I can use the savings for a Boett. Or a million other things.


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## Hondo

And to all that I also recently added a Beta Biothane breeching by Berlin Custom because of some of the near vertical stuff we tend to wind up on. Loose cinch, saddle stays put. Stays better during mounting also. I'm sold on them for Hondo. Not cool looking. Not cowboyish. But really practical for us.


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> A temporary fix has been made by cutting a huge pie shape out of the front of my $270 Supracor pad. Plus a bunch off the back end as the saddle is too long.


I can imagine that was a little painful to do!

When I discovered that Shan was having problems with the saddle (only took me 7 years to figure that one out), had atrophied wither muscles, and would not extend under saddle as her shoulder was ramming into the flocking on the saddle with every step, I looked at what options were out there. Every saddle I tried, it didn't matter. None of them fit her right. They were either too wide, or they pinched her withers. I didn't have the money for a custom saddle, and I also realized that a custom saddle is not a forever fit as horses go through bodily changes just like we do.

In my research I came across the Protector by Len Brown. He was the original inventor of the orthoflex company, but sold it after he found it wasn't doing for the horses what he wanted. He developed this pad, and claims he is the first to develop a saddle correcting pad. All I know is that it worked! Shan's muscle grew back full and healthy, and she is more than happy to move out under saddle now, and I got to keep my favorite saddle. The pad has held up to a years worth of riding without showing any signs of wear. I am very happy with it. Only thing I don't like is that it is hard to clean (wool felt).


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## Hondo

Cutting the wedge out may have been painful for me but not for Hondo! He volunteers about 1 MPH extra at a walk now with frequent request for a trot.

You mentioned your success with the protector before, and I had actually looked at it before you mentioned it. I think it depends on how bad a fit there is. If it's too bad, nothing will work.

After reading Suffering In Silence and other materials I just do not want to have anything at all even touching the wither/trapezius area anywhere. I can now slide my bare hand under his gullet and feel his entire wither down to the middle of his back.

I would love to have a custom saddle made for Hondo but I can't afford it either. So I'm doing it myself. (hopefully)

I'm aware of the conformation changes a horse can make during the year, depending. The owner of Outfitters Supply has two saddles for his main horse that is turned out for the winter. One for when he comes in fat in the spring and one for later when the fat get's worked off him.

That is the reason I'm thinking about how to best incorporate the front air pads from a set of Korrector pads. The rear sections are not that important in terms of conformational changes I don't think, but the wither area is.

On forum member contacted me about the CAIR saddle causing several endurance horses it was tried to buck. But the CAIR is not adjustable and over filling of air is not good as it can cause bounce. I have bought a 0-3 pound air gauge and if I use the Korrector front air pads I will never put over 1.5 PSI in them if that much. Just enough to barely even out any conformational changes.

But the Supracor does a lot of that. It is the only pad that gets softer as it is squeezed. All other pads get harder and harder as they are compressed. But the Supracor is made up of a honey comb cell arrangement and the more they distort the softer they become. It is the only pad that does not reflect irregularities (lumps) from the saddle through the pad and to the horse.

And the thing I like about the Trooper saddle, which is actually a 1902 UP saddle which the British Cavalry still uses, is that new bars can be installed with very little disassembly of the saddle. With western the entire saddle has to be pulled apart to install a new tree. I know, been there don that, twice.

With the flocked saddle, it is supposed to be reflocked at least every year, or so they say.

Another thing I like about the trooper/UP is that it has the hammock seat of an English saddle which conforms somewhat to the rider.

This is all a learning curve for me. One that has not yet turned out to prove itself. Hopefully in about a month I'll be able to try it. I'll be able to lay the bars on Hondo for testing fit before they are even installed in the saddle.


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## Hondo

Ok, here's the thing that really reached up and dragged me down the rabbit hole of saddle fit.

Schleese says the thoracic trapezius is what the stallion bites to immobilize a mare during breeding and also where a lion bites to immobilize the horse during take down.

He also says there are numerous muscle groups that insert in that area and that pressure on the thoracic trapezius (pictured below) will cause all of the muscles that insert there to atrophy including the trapezius although he says it doesn't go until everyone else has left. Thoracic trapezius is last man standing or last man to go so to speak.

As shown in the picture, it runs all the way to the middle of the back. Also a saddle fit area top view. And for fun, a cut away of a Haggis Trooper.

I of course don't know, but I sort of wonder if the Corrector you are using raised the saddle enough to remove pressure on the thoracic trapezius.

I am what I refer to as a "light in the refrigerator" type person. Meaning, does the light really go out when the door is closed? I need to know. That's why I insist on being able to run at least my fingers to the bottom of the thoracic trapezius. Staying off the shoulders can be viewed from the outside.

I've been lost down here for a while but I think I'm beginning to find my way out.











View attachment 884954


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## horseluvr2524

All I can say is that I can now easily slide my hand between pad and horse even with a fully tightened saddle on. Shan has been so happy with it, and I have seen her topline develop so nicely, that I just say 'if it ain't broke I ain't fixing it!'. lol.

It's interesting, saying that is immobolizes the horse. That makes me think of pressure points. There are certain techniques in martial arts for example that allow a person to tune out their pressure points to a certain extent, so that a person cannot use the pressure points against them. I wonder if horses have done this to a certain extent?

The other thing to think about, is that in both cases of a lion and a horse, both are using teeth, which similar to fingers exert a narrow and intensified amount of pressure. To better explain, there is a pressure point on the top of your shoulder, above the collar bone. Two fingers there can cause an intense amount of pain. However, many people carry heavy items over their shoulders that distribute the weight all over the shoulder instead of concentrating in the one spot. Like carrying a bag of feed or whatnot on your shoulder. Roofers (like my husband, who has done roofing) do this with those extremely heavy bundles they carry (don't remember what they are called at the moment). They just sling those bundles that weigh at least 80 pounds right onto their shoulders and climb up a ladder onto a roof! I've never heard DH or any other roofer I've ever met complain about these hitting their pressure point.

This makes me think that a saddle would be a similar situation. If you think about it, english saddles are much harder to fit because the flocked panels cover a much smaller surface area, vs. western which covers a very large surface area. You can usually rig a western saddle to fit a horse with enough pads, but an english you cannot do so without it causing detriment to the horse. When I researched saddle fit, I saw a lot more problems caused by english than western. Again, english covers a smaller surface area and has more concentrated pressure (due to flocking), whereas western distributes it over a large area. For example, the main issue Shan had with my dressage saddle is that it was flocked for a high-withered horse with muscle atrophy, so because of that the saddle was filling and pressing into those wither pockets and causing the muscle atrophy and discomfort when her shoulder would come back mid-stride and run into those panels.

Well, that got lengthy. lol.


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## Hondo

Anything horsey by passionate horse people can and often does get lengthy! 

Many if not most saddlers don't ride. Not sure about saddle fitters. Schleese is a European certified saddle maker, a certified saddle fitter, and an accomplished dressage rider jumper.

He is at the top of my list for advice. For now at least.

If you look at the cross section of the bars on a western saddle, the bars are curved away from the horse. In the opposite direction of the curve on the horse. If the horse were a hard plastic model, the bars would touch at only one point. To have an area of contact, the bars have to SINK into the flesh of the horse. The center of the bars will have more pressure than the outer parts. At 1.5 PSI blood stops flowing. After two hours of no circulation cellular death begins to occur.

A properly flocked saddle will curve WITH the horse not away. The primary reason you have seen more damage with English saddles is that people don't throw a heavy one inch thick rug under them. The area covered by an English saddle in general has a better or more even weight distribution than the bars of a Western saddle. If the English riders used a heavy rug under their saddle there would be less damage. If they were flocked properly, there'd be even less, probably without the rug.

(am i on a rant or what?) :

Hondo's bars will slope WITH his body. The edges of course will be rounded. I have traced the bar design on 1/4" drafting paper and carefully counted the squares, 1/2's, 1/3rds, etc to get a good estimate of the area covered. Since he is short backed and I will go no closer than 2" behind his scapula and NO weight bearing behind the 18th, he has limited square inches. But using a light saddle and my aging/atrophied body, he will be well under 1.5 PSI.

Western saddles were designed to fit many horses and not gall them providing the horses were changed every day or two. The thing is, there is a slope at the withers. A slope at the midpoint. A slope at the 18th. And different lengths of backs. And some horses backs dip more than others. And then you get into one shoulder, usually the right, being larger than the other.

Saddles don't fit. A properly flocked saddle is basically a custom fit saddle. Hard to do that with Western. But that is what I am attempting to do. We'll see how it turns out. Hope hope.....

This is Hondo's back. A saddle that fits this will be misaligned somewhere on any other horse.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, I'll be interested to hear how your saddle turns out.

It is rewarding and frustrating to learn about saddle fitting. It's getting ridiculous, I can hardly find a saddle that I can put on a horse and be happy. Thankfully, I have a saddle that fits either of my horses extremely well. But that's _A_ saddle. I have been wanting to get another saddle, and am on trial number three...
I've been unable to find another brand that fits Halla other than Lovatt and Ricketts. I really wanted to like my new Passier. I've ridden in it three times, and it's just not going to work. 

It's frustrating to me that I bought a saddle a half inch larger than I normally ride in (17.5") and yet the seat on this saddle swoops up earlier so the part where I sit is actually smaller than my other 17" saddle. I can't sit flat in the seat with my pelvis straight up and down. So here's what I can't figure out with saddle makers. Ideally, you want room in the seat. So why would you make a 17.5" saddle that a 125 lb woman can't sit her butt down in? What are the larger riders supposed to do? How can they fit such long saddles onto the part of the horse that carries weight? 

If saddle makers were thinking about the horse, they'd try to make the seating area as large as possible in relation to the saddle size. That way a person could ride in the shortest saddle possible.

So the Passier doesn't fit me great. But also it is a little too long for Halla, and also the underside doesn't exactly match her back. The saddle swoops up in the rear panels more than her back does, so this creates some movement and rock. 
This annoys me very much because it is a gorgeous saddle, in beautiful shape and I want to be able to use it. But I've learned too much and now can easily see and feel the signs that the saddle is not ideal. 

I guess the good news is that I've had two Lovatt and Ricketts saddles that fit both of my horses very well. So I know now that for most Arabs, that brand is probably going to work. I'll probably wait a bit and then see if I can swap out my Passier for another L & R. They are very wide between the panels, with a good open channel down the back. The hoop tree seems to fit nicely on my horses' round backs. Plus they are short enough for these very short backs and very comfortable to sit in. I was thinking my muscles were sore because I was out of shape for riding, but when I put my L & R saddle on Halla a couple days ago I realized it was just that the other saddle was so uncomfortable.


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## gottatrot

I was off work for 9 days, which meant I was super busy! 
Finished my spring cleaning in the house, got some serious yard work done, and finally bought an actual Smartphone. So that's going to help a lot with getting spontaneous horse pics, especially on rides. 

I just have much better ways to waste money than on a phone bill, but now you can get a phone without a contract, so I can still do it on the cheap. Everyone has these strange ways they are thrifty, and that's mine. I don't use coupons, throw out money on horse supplements galore, but draw the line at a cell phone bill! Especially since I only send out a couple texts a day at most and probably make a phone call once every three weeks.

I also rode Halla four times, and that's been the best part of my time off. 

Today was 70 degrees, just perfect. The horses felt so mellow that I decided to ride Halla and pony Amore down to the beach. Now I'm still taking things very easy with Halla, but I'm very pleased with how her hooves are doing. So far no sign of soreness from our little rides. Down to the beach is about a half mile, so we did around a mile which is the farthest we've gone so far.

The horses were abnormally calm from the heat. Poor Amore had signs of dried sweat on her coat. Although she's shedding out better this year than last year, due to increasing her Prascend dose for her Cushing's, she still has a medium coat left. It's coming out nicely, but today was a little too warm for what she is still wearing.

The mares walked very calmly all the way to the beach, with Amore only trying for a bite of grass a couple times. I was watching for that, so I caught her before she could get her head down and plant herself. We even passed by three little deer that bolted up a hill, and the horses just watched them go.

Once we caught sight of the ocean and turned back for home (we didn't go down the dunes), Halla got a little excited. I think she was planning to go down and run on the beach, so got a little hit of adrenaline. After prancing along for a little bit, she started plunging every couple of strides. If you don't know what plunging is, it's kind of like what horses do when going through deep water. It feels like the horse is thinking about bucking or cantering, but they don't quite launch. 

Well, I wasn't sure if I could keep a hold on Amore's lead if Halla kept plunging, so I got off and walked the horses for a little bit, stopping to let them graze. Halla had some shaky legs going on, I noticed, so I guess it was a little too exciting for her to be back out near the beach again. 

She was wearing her Renegade boots, so we were able to go across the asphalt and gravel road with no worries. Once we were back in the field near the barn, I got on and ponied Amore again. Halla plunged a couple more times, but it was not a concern since Amore could safely get loose within the fenced area, and I knew she'd just start grazing if she did. Halla didn't really do anything rough, just thought about it.

Amore stayed calm throughout, only getting excited when her nose got too close to tall grass. 
Our ride was at about 7:30, a lovely time of day after a warm afternoon.


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## Hondo

Sounds like some really good time spent with the horses! That's so important.

I've been wondering how the Passier worked out. Sorry about that

Schleese actually specializes in women's saddles and has done a lot of detailed work, study, and design to fit the female anatomy. He says saddles have been traditionally designed for men's anatomy which made sense at one time but now that women comprise around 80% of horse owners it was time for someone to address that in saddle fit.

How much dig there is in the horse's back is technically referred to as "rock" in saddle construction. With what I have learned, if I were ordering a saddle I would want to know the manufacturer's tree model and associated gullet width, tree flare, twist, and rock. Not sure what the comparable terms are in English but they are there somewhere. If I were female, I'd want to know if the seat was designed for female anatomy. Most saddle makers just buy a tree from one of the large tree manufacturers. That's in Western but again not sure about English but suspect it's the same. 

Being female, you're likely up on the female saddle but just in case here's some discussion by Schleese for reading on a rainy day.

https://schleese.com/wp-content/upl...Saddle_fit_and_the_female_saddle-July2013.pdf

https://schleese.com/wp-content/upl...dle-Fit-for-Women-April-2014-Full-Article.pdf

https://saddlefit4life.com/wp-conte...10/MaleSaddle_FemaleSaddle-May2013-100dpi.pdf

https://schleese.com/2016/03/28/saddle-fit-twist/#video_button

Check this out. Someday we may be able to order a print out of a saddle tree. Home - HORSESHAPE


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...Schleese says the thoracic trapezius is what the stallion bites to immobilize a mare during breeding and also where a lion bites to immobilize the horse during take down...
> 
> ...If you look at the cross section of the bars on a western saddle, the bars are curved away from the horse. In the opposite direction of the curve on the horse. If the horse were a hard plastic model, the bars would touch at only one point. To have an area of contact, the bars have to SINK into the flesh of the horse....At 1.5 PSI blood stops flowing....


Bogus info on lions. According to George Adamson, a lion's preferred way of taking down a large herbivore is to grab hold of the nose. They'll take any part they can get hold of, but he said they will try for the nose.

As for mares and stallions...I'm told when Mia first met the stallion, she made it clear she'd fight. So they waited a few days, and the stallion mated her when her attitude had switched to "_Hey, sailor, going my way?_" I have no personal experience watching, but at least the reference to lions was bogus. And I doubt a prudent stallion would try to immobilize Mia by biting her when she wasn't ready to be bred. Good way to get a stallion killed, IMHO.

In either case, there is a huge difference between a wool pad resting on the skin and something biting. People use twitches on the ears of horses, but also cover them with fly screens.

As for the bars not contacting or being shaped so that they must dig in, that is simply false:








​ 







​ 
If you don't have good, even contact with the bars, or you have too much flare at the ends (below), you simply use a different tree:








​ 
The last picture comes from using the forms provided by Steele Saddle Tree, the largest maker of western saddle trees in the world. They have 10 patterns which fit the large majority of horses, but also have hundreds of others. They will also modify any of their trees to personalize the fit to a horse, and the head of the company reviews pictures of the tree's fitting and will make recommendations. 

BTW - he thought the wood tree above was acceptable, but a different tree with a little custom flare at the front end would have been optimum. I went with a standard tree that was 'good enough' because I had no certainty that the saddle would remain with Mia forever.

Those personalized trees can then have a saddle made at reasonable cost by companies such as Dakota.

The fiberglass forms available from Steele have another nice advantage. You can rent them to find which one fits your horse best, then buy that form for a reasonable price. The photo below shows one compared to a wood tree, but you can do the exact same thing with a finished saddle, and see how the finished saddle compares to the fiberglass form:








​ 
You then can take it with you to a shop (or a private seller) and see in a heartbeat how well the finished saddle will match your horse's back.

At the front of the saddle, there is a reason people teach to raise the pad up into the gullet. There are also gullet cutouts. I had one pad I really liked that was actually two separate parts with a heavy nylon canvas holding them together by the top of the pad. It left a 3-4 inch wide gap of no contact the entire length of the horse's back. Unfortunately, it also used wool felt that was probably neither wool nor felt...but the fundamental design was sound. Just ruined by bad materials.

Still, the felt pads are, at worst, pulled down against the skin along the back, like stretching a T-shirt across your own. It interferes with ventilation, but it cannot create any significant pressure near the spine. Thus you get readings like this:








​ 
BTW - the Nikkels have a new website and are offering a video on saddle fit. I may buy it, although I don't have much reason to do so. Bandit's shoulder's have filled out and Mia's old saddle seems to suit him very well.

Because he has big shoulders compared to his back, I place the saddle further back than is generally recommended. He also has a level back, and the saddle stays in place pretty much regardless. I may work with Steele again and have Dakota make a custom saddle for him - 15" instead of 16", since a 16" saddle is too big for how I like to ride. But it is tough to look at putting another $1000-1500 into a saddle when the current one seems to work very well for him.

Rode yesterday with him and the other two, ridden by my DIL (on Cowboy) and my youngest daughter. They all did well, and Bandit kept the lead most of the way. We spent a big chunk of time off trail, picking our way around, rejecting one path because of too much cactus or a sharp drop into a wash, but finding another. One exit required Bandit to press thru a bunch of dead branches under his feet plus having branches grabbing at us from both sides. He looked, accepted it, and then powered his way thru without hesitation - this from a horse who hated being enclosed in by tight spots. 

However, he shows little concern for his rider. If there is a low branch, I guess it is up to ME to say no. I was leaning over pretty far a couple of times to squeak underneath. I'm still keeping him in familiar territory. I want to lay a very solid foundation of "We can do it" before stretching him and asking him to do equal work in unfamiliar (and thus scary) territory. He'll never be as affectionate as Mia, but I would never have tried riding Mia where I rode Bandit yesterday. After he pushed thru the dead branches, between the trees and started up a mild hillside, weaving between cactus, I told him:

"*Bandit the Bold! Bandit the Brave! Bandit the Strong!*" ​ 
He snorted, but then lifted his head and curved his neck and strode proudly up the hill. It reminded me of this passage, that gave me so much to think about and seems to be proving true:
.
.*"...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal..."* 
- On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)​


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## Hondo

I talked to Steele at length. They do not make a saddle tree to Hondo's dimensions. He needs a custom built tree. Great that an off the shelf tree fits your horses.

As far as a lion on a horse's back for killing, Buck also says the same in the documentary about him. Since neither of us have spent a great deal of time watching lion and horse's interactions I supposed it's up to who one decides to believe.

Point is, when that area was freed up, horseluvr2524, myself, and many others experienced a huge improvement in horse's ability.

Quote: As for the bars not contacting or being shaped so that they must dig in, that is simply false:

Who said the bars must be shaped so they must dig in??? Not me. I think you must have misunderstood when I said the bars have to sink into the flesh in the center of the cross section before the area adjacent to the center of cross section can reach the horse's surface.

The picture you posted shows it all too well. Western bars are supposed to have a larger area. Well, they do. But in the picture, how much of that area is touching the horse at the swell??

And look at the lower section at the back of the bar where the shadow is. The twist on the bar does not fit this horse.

American Saddle Makers Association: THE SADDLE






















http://imageshack.com/a/img536/8498/BJbt1r.jpg


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...As far as a lion on a horse's back for killing, Buck also says the same in the documentary about him. Since neither of us have spent a great deal of time watching lion and horse's interactions I supposed it's up to who one decides to believe...
> 
> ...The picture you posted shows it all too well. Western bars are supposed to have a larger area. Well, they do. But in the picture, how much of that area is touching the horse at the swell??...


1 - Buck was full of it, too. George Adamson's wife wrote "Born Free: A Lioness of Two Worlds". He spent much of his remaining life teaching tame lions to live and hunt in the wild. He probably watched lions killing game at least 10,000 times more often than Buck or Schleese.


















​
I wouldn't have asked George Adamson for riding lessons, but I sure wouldn't argue with him about how lions hunt...

2 - A saddle tree resting on top of the horse has almost no pressure on it. The slight curve, along with the flaring at the tips, is meant to allow muscles to slide under the tree when the horse is in motion. The bars also have leather underneath them and then (typically) wool felt. You do NOT want a perfectly flat contact because that would cause gouging when the muscles move. 

To know how it works in motion, pressure pads give us our best glimpse. However, as the horse and rider move, the pressure does not remain a constant. Any read-out is just a snapshot. But a continuous readout will still show a western saddle distributing weight well, if the saddle fits and is placed right.

When the Army searched for saddles to use, western saddles were ignored. In part, that was because a lot of Army types in the US didn't like cowboys or how they rode. As much as I like some of Gen Harry Chamberlin's writing, he despised cowboys and western riding. But the other factor was cost - the US Army wanted a CHEAP, mass-produced saddle, and western saddles were far more expensive than what the Army eventually adopted.

But I find it hard to get around the evidence of my eyes: Lots of horses are ridden many miles and many years by big, heavy guys in western saddles...successfully. When I switched Mia from an Australian saddle to a western one, she obviously liked it - based on how happily she would do a sitting trot in one. And THAT one was actually a very poor fit.

As a former British Cavalry officer noted:

"Chenevix_Trench_A History of Horsemanship

"_Modern European horsemen, brought up to the 'balanced seat', have plenty to say against the old fashioned Western stock-saddle. The rider's weight is placed too far back; the saddle is useless for what foxhunters call 'riding across country', since one cannot jump with it and merely climbing a steep bank one is butted in the midriff by the horn as one leans forward...But these criticisms of the old stock saddle are the objections of ignorance, and are usually voiced by people who have tried to ride with a bent leg on a saddle not designed for it. A hundred and thirty years ago nearly everyone in Europe and North America - cowpunchers, foxhunters, soldiers - rode with a more or less straight leg, the feet rather far forward, leaning rather far back: any hunting or military print proves the point. The weight-distributing stock-saddle was admirably designed for its purpose and for the contemporary seat...

...In moments of crisis he can grab the horn; even the best riders do not disdain this help when, for instance, a cutting-horse whips around at full gallop; it is a great deal better than hanging on by the reins. Above all, by distributing the rider's weight, the stock saddle is perfect for long distance riding.

A few statistics bear this out. And Australian stockman, on an American stock-saddle, without changing horses rode from Murray River to Melbourne, 143 miles by the route taken, in twenty six hours. A constable of the Royal North-West Mounted Police, on a forty-two pound stock-saddle, rode from Regina to Wood Mountain Post, 132 miles by sunlight, without changing horses, and his horse bucked him off at the finish. Most of the Mounted Police constables and ranch-hands moving between Fort Macleod and Calgary in the 1890s covered the distance, 108 miles, in a day. Kit Carson with a party of five Mexican gentlemen rode from Los Angeles to San Francisco, 600 miles, in six days, and only two of the party changed horses._" (Pages 225-226)"

Not saying anyone needs to switch to a western saddle, or that it is the end all of saddles. But they are not bad designs, nor do they simulate a lion biting a horse on the withers, and they do NOT put pressure along the spine. Too many millions of horses have moved too athletically and had long service lives using western saddles.

It is like the argument about riding with or without contact: *Millions of horses have been ridden well and contentedly both ways, so maybe both work fine when done right*.

Either way, if either Buck or Schleese want me to take them seriously, they need to knock off the nonsense about lions and focus on saddles that fit, not saddle styles. There are far too many variables in any given saddle / rider / horse to make blanket statements.


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## Hondo

Fact: A western saddle tree sitting on a horse has less contact area than a properly flocked english saddle. A properly flocked english saddle only needs a thin pad to protect the leather from sweat. The only reason a western saddle tree works at all is due to a heavy leather skirt fleeced on the bottom with a 3/4" to 1" pad in between. A bare tree would gall a horse in minutes.

Fact: If a horse shows preference to a western saddle with a heavy rug over an english saddle that simply means the english saddle did not fit and needed a heavy rug also.

Fact: The western and military saddle was not designed to fit "A" horse. It was designed to be pulled off a dead horse and thrown upon the nearest horse available. I agree with their design for those purposes.

Fact: Hondo gives me a huge amount of effort. Freely. I enjoy him enormously. I cannot even express it adequately. He is not a war horse or demand working horse. He is MY horse. He will get the best I am able to give and it will NOT be an off the shelf western saddle with a compromised fit.

Gullet width, gullet slope, twist from gullet to 18th, rock (dip in the back). These are not normally even advertised variables when purchasing a western saddle. The chances of getting a combination that actually fits a horse is small indeed.

If the horse has a long wide back with a light rider and saddle, a compromise may work. But with a 14 hh horse like Hondo with a short back to boot, there can be no compromise.

That said, there are a few situations where saddle fit just doesn't matter that much.


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## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> Fact: A western saddle tree sitting on a horse has less contact area than a properly flocked english saddle. A properly flocked english saddle only needs a thin pad to protect the leather from sweat. The only reason a western saddle tree works at all is due to a heavy leather skirt fleeced on the bottom with a 3/4" to 1" pad in between. A bare tree would gall a horse in minutes.
> not sure where you got that information. it's not a matter so much of size as type. look at the 'fork' of an English saddle and you will see why it needs more padding there. but, I had always heard the exact opposite of what you posted; that the Western saddle has more weight bearing surfaceon the hrose , regarless of the skirt.
> Fact: If a horse shows preference to a western saddle with a heavy rug over an english saddle that simply means the english saddle did not fit and needed a heavy rug also.
> 
> Fact: The western and military saddle was not designed to fit "A" horse. It was designed to be pulled off a dead horse and thrown upon the nearest horse available. I agree with their design for those purposes.
> never heard this. Western saddles came about more as the entire method for containing/selecting livestock changed from the European way, using a long pole with a 'noose' on the end, to one of having the cowboy swing a rope and secure the end to the horn. and THAT is becuase of the much greater distances cowboys travelled. not going to go all over the country with a long pole in your hand.
> Fact: Hondo gives me a huge amount of effort. Freely. I enjoy him enormously. I cannot even express it adequately. He is not a war horse or demand working horse. He is MY horse. He will get the best I am able to give and it will NOT be an off the shelf western saddle with a compromised fit.that's how most of us feel.
> 
> Gullet width, gullet slope, twist from gullet to 18th, rock (dip in the back). These are not normally even advertised variables when purchasing a western saddle. The chances of getting a combination that actually fits a horse is small indeed.so true.
> 
> If the horse has a long wide back with a light rider and saddle, a compromise may work. But with a 14 hh horse like Hondo with a short back to boot, there can be no compromise.
> 
> That said, there are a few situations where saddle fit just doesn't matter that much.
> 
> 
> View attachment 885234



my responses in blue


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## horseluvr2524

The below is just FWIW:

Did read quite a bit on Len Brown before buying his pad. One of the worst experiences/worst things he did (in his own words and view) was designing saddles for a mounted police unit that contoured to each horse's back perfectly (keep in mind, this was with using his orthoflex tree, which flexed and moved with the horse). The horses were miserable beyond words when this was done. Sore, behavioral problems, lowered performance, etc. As soon as they went back to their old saddles, the horses were fine.

I don't think that a saddle which conforms to a horse's back perfectly is the answer. Horse's backs move and change in motion, especially the spine/back which lifts when a horse moves especially up into gaits such as trot and canter. I wouldn't have believed it, unless I physically saw it happen. It was easy to spot on my shark withered, long backed mare.

As far as saddles go, it really does depend on the amount of riding being done in them on a particular horse. In western, you can get away with a not so great fit for short periods of time and thick pads, riding infrequently. Maybe english too with a thick enough pad, but I just feel from personal experience that english saddles have a tendency to dig more than western.

If I could get the same close contact feel, light weight, and comfortable seat for me, I might ride western. I am very happy in my dressage though.


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## bsms

Hondo, your facts are not facts. A bare western tree would take longer to hurt a horse than a bare English tree, but both are irrelevant since no one rides a horse in either a bare western or English tree.

Does this weight distribution look like the outline of a western tree?










No, and it is not even symmetrical because how the horse and rider interact with the saddle, while in motion, changes the reading. Which side of the back the horse is using most, how the rider sits (on crotch? On pockets? Leaning left, as I tend to do due to a long ago back injury?), how the rider moves with a horse - all of that plays a part.

As the Nikkels note: "(By the way, you will notice that there isn’t totally even pressure under the saddle in any of these examples. The reason for that is that there isn’t ever totally even pressure under a saddle. And the areas or pressure are constantly changing and shifting, even on a horse standing still, just due to their breathing. What’s higher now is lower now – and in about that kind of time frame too. That’s just the real world, which is why the pressure sensing equipment, while a great step forward in learning about how saddles work on horses, still has a lot of limitations when it comes to being practical for research purposes…)"

Notice in this one, the legs are a big part of the weight distribution - even with a western saddle:










Center of pressure under a saddle

But a few things are obvious: Weight tends to be carried more to the front than rear, and in fact, the rear of a western saddle has very little weight on it. Since Bandit has a pretty flat back, I like to sit the saddle further back than most recommend. It is common, in looking at pressure pad readings, to see spikes near the front. That matches what I've felt with my hand slid under the saddle pad, and the muscles of the shoulder pushing back and getting pressure as they push underneath the front. But then, that isn't a constant pressure either.

Still, Bandit has plenty of shoulder and rides better - works more eagerly and with more oomph in his stride - when I position the saddle about 2" behind where most say to put it. But I don't know how anyone can look at a lot of pressure read-outs involving western saddles and conclude there is a problem with pressure on the loin, or pressure near the spine. One of the constants is pressure maps is the LACK of pressure in either area with a western saddle.

The idea that an English saddle is superior due to flocking is pretty far-fetched. English saddles have internal flocking, adjustable by a fitter. Western saddles have external 'flocking' - the saddle pad - which can be changed easily by any rider. The saddle tree has padding either way. Just one is internal and one is external. And if I had to choose between them, I like the external flocking that I can swap out in seconds, replace, adjust with a folded towel, etc.

There are good reasons to prefer an English saddle, but their flocking isn't one of them. They have a narrower twist, it is easier to feel the motion of the muscles, and years ago, riding Mia like this, the only thing between me and my horse was often my jeans, which often ended a ride with our mixed sweat soaking them:










Years ago, maura - an HF moderator I deeply respected and sorely miss - said she felt more secure in a jump saddle than a western saddle. I can understand that, then and now.

"_Fact: The western and military saddle was not designed to fit "A" horse. It was designed to be pulled off a dead horse and thrown upon the nearest horse available._"

No. I've read far too many manuals and autobiographies of cavalrymen and cowboys to swallow that argument. The cavalry tried to buy horses of a certain size and shape. But both the cavalry and cowboys understood how to adjust saddle blankets to compensate, and both took seriously the need to keep their horses functional. The standard cavalry field load for a horse was 250 lbs, and they routinely rode them 20-30 miles a day. In war, often enough covering 250 miles in under a week. And when done with good husbandry, it worked.

"_He will get the best I am able to give and it will NOT be an off the shelf western saddle with a compromised fit._"

Well, I had a semi-custom saddle made, so I'm not exactly in the "just throw something on their back and let them suffer" camp. But our off-the-shelf Abetta with semi-quarter horse bars actually fits my horses well.

And when I run, or hike, my shoes are not custom shoes. Pretty much any 8D men's shoe will fit me close enough, once broken in. I always have a callous on the side of my big toes, so I suppose none of them have fit me perfectly...but good enough.

At some point, reality needs to be looked at. Lots of horses have been ridden lots of miles with jump saddles or dressage saddles, without harm. Lots of western horses have been ridden very large numbers of miles, with big guys and a load of other gear on them, without harm. And, of course, I can put the wrong saddle on Bandit tomorrow and have him get irritable fast. Put Cowboy's saddle on about 2 inches too far forward, and he'll start bucking when you mount. Slide the saddle back, and he's carried me willingly on 3 hour rides - and he's a 13.0 hand pony!

And Trooper still has the spots he got in a few months on a ranch in Colorado:










I frequently ride with one of these in my rear pocket (closed, of course). The hoof pick knife is a great tool to ride with:










That would be pretty painful if I rode my western saddle the way a lot of people (including the instructor I had) said - on my pockets. But since I don't, I don't even notice them. It is one of the uncounted variables in riding. How steep is the cantle? How wide the twist? As it changes how the rider rides, it affects weight distribution. Do you put weight in the stirrups, or not? Do you lean? Do you post? When catering, are you steady in the saddle or scooping (as some people teach to do)?

Do whatever you want with Hondo, but I see no evidence that every horse needs a custom built saddle - or is ridden by an uncaring rider, otherwise.

BTW - a local Border Patrol unit was having problems with their horses. They called a person I know to review things. She walked in, and one of the first things she found was that saddles were assigned to RIDERS, not HORSES. She had them assign the HORSES individual saddles, and the problems went away overnight.


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## bsms

A few years ago, on a few of our "three hour tours" of the desert:




























As we got near home, Cowboy started trotting - at his own initiative - up the hill. Doubt he'd have done that if he had been in pain. Our little tank is probably the best horse we own, but I'm really too big for him. Still - 3 hours, in the summer, with a 30 lb western saddle made for a 15.3 hand Arabian, on a horse who is willing to give sass - and no complaints. But he is one heck of a horse!


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## gottatrot

What a great topic.

I'm very interested to hear the opinions and rationale behind them.

Off topic, I read those Born Free books about the lions years ago, and enjoyed them.

My generalization is that western saddles tend to cause more problems at the front. I've not many horses sore in the loin area from being ridden in a poorly fitted western saddle, but I've seen many instances of atrophy around the withers. To me, people causing issues from the saddle sitting down _on_ the withers is a no-brainer and there are no excuses for it. Too narrow in front is common, but many people seem oblivious to it. Even less obvious are issues at the back of the saddle, and those are more subtle and very common in english saddles. The back of a western saddle is more forgiving of angle issues and distributes pressure better. If an english saddle is too narrow in the panels, not flat enough for the horse's back, sits too far back on the loin, etc., the horse will get a sore back if you ride far enough and/or weigh enough.

I'm skeptical of any hard and fast rules for saddles, barring the obvious ones such as room for spinal clearance, rubbing or pressing into bones, etc. So much depends on the type of riding you do. I've had saddles that worked extremely well for one type of riding, but not for another. Other huge factors are your weight and build, and the horse's size and build. 

For instance, I've heard to place the saddle farther back, and I've heard to place the saddle farther forward. Halla has a somewhat forward girth groove. Yet her barrel is fairly straight from front to back. So I can put a saddle back farther on her, and technically her girth might not be in the girth groove. But the saddle does not get pulled forward regardless, her shoulder is freed up, and it seems to work better with where the rider sits on her back in relation to her center of gravity. 

With Amore, you have to put saddles farther forward. She has a tiny girth groove, and the girth has to sit in it or it will end up there anyway due to her light bulb shaped barrel. If a saddle gets on her shoulder or over her withers, she will buck. So there is one place a saddle can go, and if it doesn't fit perfectly it won't stay there. You just cannot ride her in a saddle that doesn't fit well. Any saddle that fit her poorly enough to where it would cause her any pain, would not even sit on her back well enough to ride in. So she's never been more than very minorly sore from a saddle. Yet we have had to abandon rides because I've tried saddles that didn't fit. They'd end up on her neck, and we'd quit. Her shoulders are perfectly flat, and her withers are barely visible, so either the saddle fits perfectly over her rounded barrel and cinches down, or else it shoots off her front end. 

In my experience, there are different kinds of saddle fitting worries. First, before I get on any horse, I see if the saddle fits "good enough." That means I can't see any obvious big issues. If there are any, I won't get on. But many horses are ridden in saddles that mostly fit well, you can't see problems obviously, and then you look for the behavioral signs. A saddle might look OK, but the horse will have problems with being ridden, and then I know there is something wrong that I can't see. Problems going forward, bucking, rearing, stilted movement, sometimes these obviously come from the saddle. I believe over time I've developed a feel for this. 

This seems to be something people have some trouble sorting out, and it can be tricky. But the problems come from the locomotion, the saddle/back, or the brain. If it's the legs, the gait won't be pure. A horse affected by saddle fit is not going to feel like they are mincing with their front legs (tender hooves), or favoring a leg, etc. You can feel when it's the saddle because the horse has an initial drive to go forward, and then they seem to get held up. Then they buck or move hunched up, or short stride. 

These issues are fairly easy to get past, for me personally. The saddle gets rejected because the horse says it's not feeling good, and we move on. The harder issues for me are the ones relating to my personal use of the saddle on a particular horse. The saddle fits good enough, and the horse moves out well and doesn't object. But when I take the saddle off I see ruffled hairs from movement, dry spots under the stirrup bars, or the panel sweat marks don't sit evenly on either side of the spine. After long and hard rides, I can find a little tenderness when I palpate the back the next day. Would any horse be sore in any saddle in this case? ...After all, I'm sore from exercising. So is it normal? Or could I improve on it with an ideal saddle fit? Those are the things that bother me and I keep trying to minimize, but they are very difficult to eradicate. I know that many people would believe their horse had no issues or soreness, and it's only a lot of experience over long and hard rides that makes me even know how to look for it. But since I can find it, it bothers me.

My biggest ideal would be to find a dressage saddle with an ideal balance for heavy two pointing. I think my saddle is "fine," judging by my horse's well developed back muscles. I've tried various pads but am not satisfied yet. 
If I didn't ride such a strong horse, I'd use my treeless all the time. My horses obviously feel great with it on their backs, and it has the best pressure distribution for someone my size without poking anywhere. But you give up the solid platform you might need to get through to a strong galloping horse like Halla, so I use my dressage saddle much more often.


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## bsms

I agree with your entire post, gottatrot! It mirrors what I've seen, word for word.

With Mia, the saddle would slide into whatever spot it matched, as the Nikkels say happens. But on Bandit, I can put it anywhere and it doesn't shift. Was Mia a little more downhill? Was it the shape of her barrel? I had been taught to shift the saddle a little to find where it settled, and that is what I did with Mia. But a very nice conformation feature of Bandit is that I can shift it almost anywhere on his back, and it stays there. I suspect that makes it easier to find a saddle that 'fits' Bandit than Mia.

Cowboy has the disappearing shoulders problem. Yeah, he's a bit chubby. But I can stand next to him, with no saddle, and struggle to feel just where his shoulder is. The best test seems to be this: Mount up. If he refuses to move, or bucks, dismount and move the saddle back 2-4 inches. Mount up and he'll do fine. He has learned to trust his riders to listen, so he'll give a couple of small bucks of protest and then wait for his rider to fix the problem.

But how many of his lesson horse issues were due to students bringing their own saddles (of who knows what size) and tossing it on a 13.0 hand pony with a hard to fit back?

Cowboy, next to my 5'2" wife:










Bandit:










Both will do fine in Semi-QH Bar saddles, but saddle placing is crucial with Cowboy and flexible with Bandit. I've tried what the Nikkels say about letting the shoulder slide under the leading edge of the tree...and while Bandit won't balk, he's more eager when the saddle is about 3" further back. When I saddle him, he frequently has one front leg toward the front (and thus that shoulder blade toward the rear). I now try to put the front edge of the skirt at the rear of that shoulder blade. Trial and error indicates that will give us a good ride.

Still, a different rider could get a different pressure reading if they rode Bandit in Mia's saddle, just because they rode a little different than I do. I will say this: If I ever buy another saddle, I will insist on no more than 3/4 rigging. Even 7/8 rigging tends to constrict the front end, IMHO.

I've argued before that there are people who listen to horses, and people who do not, and that there seems to be limited ability to teach someone to listen. Those who listen become passionate about saddle fit because HORSES care about saddle fit. We might not all come to the same conclusions, but people who listen to their horses will TRY to get a good match. The folks who don't listen will just wonder why their horse acts unhappy...if, that is, they even notice. :evil:


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## Hondo

@horseluvr2524 I did read about Orthoflexes problems a couple of years ago. That may have persuaded me away from the Corrector. With your success, I need to go back and re-read up on it.

What you say here is the important part: "All I can say is that I can now easily slide my hand between pad and horse even with a fully tightened saddle on. Shan has been so happy with it, and I have seen her topline develop so nicely, that I just say 'if it ain't broke I ain't fixing it!'. lol.

@All; At this point whether a lion or stallion bites the horse's thoracic trapezius is really unimportant to me. I'm just glad I believed it which put me on a more proactive course for that area which has been a great benefit to Hondo.

@tinyliny That the western saddle tree has more surface area on the bars has become a holy grail for the western saddle in some quarters. And it cannot be disputed. It obviously does have more surface area.

But if one browses around on the American Saddle Makers Association on saddle design, particularly the bars, and begin to think not about total bar area but rather bar CONTACT area, the western saddle design begins to look not quite as good as when total area was more or less blindly being considered.

When one begins to look at the pressure points from mis-alignment of the bars, it gives one some pause. Also mentioned on the site is a too extreme curvature of the cross section of the bars causing a pressure point even in the center of the bar. And keep in mind that this site is by people who make and prefer western design.

Some if not most manufacturers of bars do put too much curve in the cross section of the bars. This is to prevent the edges of the bars from becoming pressure point due to mis-fit. The over curved center creates a larger area of pressure point than the edges of the bars.

@All; I have pondered quite a bit about a horse's shoulder sliding under the western bar. Maybe the horse doesn't notice and doesn't care but I just cannot get that fact wrapped around my head. Hondo has a lot of movement in that area and below that I do not want to impede.

A flocked saddle is the only saddle that truly fits a horse as it should. That said, I do not intend to go to a flocked saddle. There is no one in my area to adjust it properly and I do not have the expertise. That is the reason, among others, that I have decided to form my own bars for the trooper saddle. I really also like the idea of the hammock english seat but have never sat in one. We'll see.

@gottatrot I envy your experience and abilities to spot discomfort in horses. I'm beginning to notice more small things but I've a long way to go.

@All;

Off topic on another note. I put GC's back on Hondo's fronts yesterday with hind going on today. Just for fun I looked back in my records to see when it was last year that I first installed GC's on the front. April 23!

He has such thin soles that at the moment I have decided he needs to be shod full time for the rest of his life. He seemed to know he was getting GC's again and was SO cooperative I felt he was glad to be getting them. Probably all in my mind but it feels good to think that anyhow.


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## bsms

Just a thought...what would happen if I used a Vee-shaped rigging using both front and rear D-rings? I've never tried that before.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Just a thought...what would happen if I used a Vee-shaped rigging using both front and rear D-rings? I've never tried that before.


Don't know about your setup but I tried it on mine and it pulled the saddle forward as the cinch migrated to the girth area with the cinch loosening due to the reduced circumference.


----------



## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...But if one browses around on the American Saddle Makers Association on saddle design, particularly the bars, and begin to think not about total bar area but rather bar CONTACT area, the western saddle design begins to look not quite as good as when total area was more or less blindly being considered...
> 
> ...Some if not most manufacturers of bars do put too much curve in the cross section of the bars. This is to prevent the edges of the bars from becoming pressure point due to mis-fit. The over curved center creates a larger area of pressure point than the edges of the bars...
> 
> ...A flocked saddle is the only saddle that truly fits a horse as it should...


Too much curve is just a bad saddle fit. Everyone I talked to about Mia's saddle, and saddle fitting, agreed. Too much curve is a little better than too little, but it reduces the protection for a horse's back and thus is a serious fault. A lot of makers use it, though, because they know the folks who buy their saddles neither know nor care about saddle fit.

The wood tree below is what we used for Mia's saddle. The fiberglass form is the one that Circle Y uses for their "Arabian" Mojave saddle. That is a significant difference. We own the Circle Y Mojave, and use it with Trooper. I used it with Mia and she didn't complain, but it felt wrong on her back. I've tried it with Bandit, same thing - acts annoyed and the hair is all ruffled at the end of the ride. He actually could use a little flatter tree than what I used with Mia.








​ 
The bar area itself is not the load bearing surface. People say it is, but when I look at pressure mat readouts, the shape is NEVER like the bars. Just as the tree of an English saddle doesn't support weight without the flocking being involved, the tree of a Western saddle is only part of the equation. The external flocking of a western saddle becomes a huge part.

I bought a small, Diamond wool felt pad, just slightly bigger than Mia's saddle. When I tried it on Bandit, he became very fussy. Walking beside him, with my hand underneath the saddle & pad, it was obvious why. The pad only extended an inch in front of the saddle, and there was a sharp ridge of pressure. Put a full sized Diamond wool felt pad underneath (same maker, same thickness, same felt), extending 2-3 inches out in front, and that pressure went away. Bandit was happy again.

A wither cut-out can make a difference. Tenting the pad up into the gullet makes a difference with some horses, although flat withered Cowboy doesn't seem to care. I used to ride Bandit with part of a Wintec pad underneath the front end:








​
However, as he got used to using his left front leg properly (a shoeing issue), his shoulders and back built up and I started noticing a dry area - about the size of my hand - at the front end. Stopped using the Wintec and that went away. In essence, I 're-flocked' my western saddle.

Part of me wants to try an English saddle again. Part of me, though, really likes how Bandit moves with the current saddle. There is also a lot to like about my Australian saddle, but it needs to be reflocked - and there aren't many folks in this part of the country who do that sort of work. :-?


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## Zexious

Really great and interesting points, @bsms. 
I think you really hit the nail on the head--"always" and "never" _almost never_ (  ) have a place in our vernacular when dealing with horses.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Too much curve is just a bad saddle fit. Too much curve is a little better than too little, but it reduces the protection for a horse's back and thus is a serious fault.
> 
> Not certain what you refer to by curve. There is the cross section curve referred to as crown and the end to end or dip in the back that is referred to as rock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He actually could use a little flatter tree than what I used with Mia.
> 
> That would be a tree with less rock. Average is 1.5" on Haggis.
> 
> 
> 
> The bar area itself is not the load bearing surface.
> 
> If the bar was the only load bearing surface, nobody would be using a western saddle.
> Not even the bull ropers. I mentioned somewhere in a previous post that the only reason a Western saddle could be used was that it had a heavy heavy leather skirt under it that was fleeced and a 3/4 "
> to 1" rug thrown on top of the horses back. A HOT rug.
> 
> A wither cut-out can make a difference.
> 
> The biggest difference is when the gullet is too narrow for the horse as in Hondo's case.
> Removing 3/4" of pad on each side widens the gullet area by 1.5" and so far has made my screwy set up tolerable for Hondo on the short term, although it's been much worse for a LONG time now.
> 
> Tenting the pad up into the gullet makes a difference with some horses
> 
> Yes, if not tented, when the rider mounts, the pad can become weight bearing.
> 
> 
> Part of me wants to try an English saddle again.​




I really have no desire to ride English except for the seat which I think I'll like. I mentioned I have a set of Korrector air bags waiting in the tack room. I will definitely give them some testing. I purchased an accurate (not cheap!) 1-3 psi air gauge to play with. When the pressure stops going up it will mean the saddle is fully suspended on air. Then I won't need a pressure pad read out. The psi read out will be the same all under the bars. Have not read about that being tried.

To much air is bad. The gal that rides endurance rides, forgot, told me that they tried the CAIR saddle on three horses and they all bucked. She said you could feel the saddle bouncing and the horses didn't like it. But the CAIR system is a set amount and can't be adjusted. What I hope to do is get just enough air to barely suspend the saddle. Hopefully stopping at the last spot being no more than 1 mm above the horse.

I have had some phenomenal success/experience riding on an air cushion on an extremely hard motorcycle seat. Off road seats are hard and not noticeable off road as one is standing much of the time. But a 200 mile highway trip is a killer. With the air cushion it was no more than driving in my truck.

I just can't help but wondering how much better that could feel to the horse if one got it right.

I need more money. My retirement has turned up so many projects I need to hire someone to help me get caught up.

I'm hoping that everyone can agree that should a rider sit on a saddle with the bottom uncovered so the bars were actually sitting on the horse, that the area contacting the horse would be less that the total area of the bottom of the bars. That's what I'm saying and by that to me it makes no sense to refer to western bars as having more area when much it is not all being used.

I'd like to see a properly flocked English saddle sitting on top of a thick Western skirt on top of a thick Western pad and see what the pressure point read outs would be.​


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...I'm hoping that everyone can agree that should a rider sit on a saddle with the bottom uncovered so the bars were actually sitting on the horse, that the area contacting the horse would be less that the total area of the bottom of the bars. That's what I'm saying and by that to me it makes no sense to refer to western bars as having more area when much it is not all being used.
> 
> I'd like to see a properly flocked English saddle sitting on top of a thick Western skirt on top of a thick Western pad and see what the pressure point read outs would be.


Last part first: What you would have is a saddle that would slip off sideways at a moment's notice. Too much padding makes a comfortable horse - until the saddle comes off:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

Nor are the bars of a western saddle largely unused. There is some curve to the bottom of them, to allow some sliding movement underneath, but the curve is minor and as a weight-bearing area, it become irrelevant after being transmitted thru the skirts and pad.

This:








​

becomes this:








​
becomes this;








​
which will result in pressures like this, for a given moment in time:








​
To throw in more variables, the underside of our little Abetta (16 lbs) isn't noticeably larger than the area under my Bates CC saddle (12 lbs). I think it would be interesting to try a hornless Abetta as a substitute jump saddle and see what happens - but I'd have to learn jumping to try it, so I'm not likely to go there!








​ 
I've READ that western saddle distribute weight over an area, on average, about 150% of the area of an English saddle. But I've READ so much false information on horses and tack that I won't believe it unless I can see pressure pad readouts of both types of saddles on similar horses.

Just eyeballing it, and trying to take into account the area that would actually contact the horse, I'd GUESS my western saddles cover about 20% more area than my Australian/English Bates Caprilli AP saddle, and the latter covered maybe 10-20% more area than my Bates Caprilli CC saddle. But there were significant differences in a number of areas between my Bates Caprilli CC saddle and my Bates Caprilli AP saddle - they definitely fit Mia differently - so just how many generalizations does one want to make?

As for heat, though - my horses sweated much harder under their English saddles on cotton blankets than they do under western saddles with felt wool pads. I ended up going to this combination as a working compromise:








​ 







​
It might have looked weird, but it seemed to work better on our 95+ degree / blistering desert sun kind of days.

I guess I view saddles and a lot of other tack as a journey we take until we find out what works well for our particular goals, desires, environment, etc. I didn't like western saddles at first. I wandered around, went thru more saddles than I want to think about, tried a variety of riding styles and riding goals...and ended up riding using a western saddle, snaffle bit, felt wool pad on an Arabian/Mustang who reminds me of my Polish BIL as we travel across the desert off trail. 

The good news is that I'm beginning to really enjoy the riding I'm doing, with the horse that I've got. I fault him for not being affectionate, but my youngest told me last night that I just don't recognize HOW Bandit shows affection. But when I started, how could I tell how I would end up? Whoever would have thought a fan of Littauer would end up here:








​
Still, I'd LOVE to be able to sit down and talk to Littauer about riding. I've got a hunch he would understand...:mrgreen:


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## gottatrot

Whenever I see a picture of Bandit striding out I want to ride him.

My friend who weighs about 240 rides with a western pad under her english saddle for endurance:









I'd like to add more padding under mine, but my horses are so wide that I've never been able to put a thick pad under their saddle and still have everything fit. 

I agree that putting the thick pad under the western saddle helps with pressure distribution, to a point. The front can't be so narrow that your pad just lifts the saddle up and out of balance, and if the bars are poking into the sides of the withers the pad will not prevent problems from that pressure. Ditto for english saddles.

I'm thinking if I want to get a western saddle, I need to have @Hondo build a custom one for me. With an air cushion seat for the rider.


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## Hondo

English saddle doesn't need to slip off of it pad. The Supracor that I cut down in length with the wedge cut out in front is screwed in the center front and back to the saddle. I wanted that wedge to stay in the exact middle of the saddle. So when I saddle up, on goes the saddle, pad, breeching, breast strap, all in one. And the pad stays well tented from the withers to the back end. I always have a 4.5" dry strip right down the middle of his back. His sweat pattern almost exactly matches the bars I will make except they will extend a little lower.

Don't laugh gottatrot. I'm seriously thinking about putting the small "AirHawk 2" seat pad on top of the hammock but below the leather. It's so easy to do stuff like that with the UP/Trooper saddle. I will at least try it for 100% certain.

I got a raw spot from a garment one day riding and I used that fabled AirHawk on Hondo and was able to keep riding. I rolled it up and stowed it in my pommel bag for a long time just in case. I could ride for years on that cushion. Just for that spot, the rest of the body would be screaming much much sooner.

More padding narrows the gullet.

Someday we'll have 3D printed saddles to the exact dimensions of our horses with air pads for both the horse and us. Won't that be wonderful?

Hondo and I went on a rocky ride today with his barefoot hinds. He has at least 1/2" of concavity and I wanted to see. He came back with a good sized chunk gone where the last nail/screw should go. Unlike Dragon, his hoof wall is just real soft. So now he has GC's on his hinds.

I've been uncomfortable and afraid of putting a screw too close to his sole and soring him. I have a new system and it worked well on all fours. I pre-drill from the bottom where I can see I'm missing the sole. Then with his foot on the ground and the shoes properly placed, I use sport tape to hold them in place, I put in two screws from the top. Then drill the other four holes from the top down through the shoe. Pick up foot and install the four screws from the bottom with no worry as they will exit the pre-drilled hole in the top. Then back out the last two, drill, install.

Sound complicated but by the fourth shoe it was almost routine. I sure feel better knowing for absolute certainty that there is no screw touching his sole. And at 4-6 weeks the holes will be trimmed out as before with a clean foot to re-shoe.

This is about my upteeth "infallible" system but I think it may be a keeper.

He really goes good in the rocks with all four shod.

I'll add this on English. If I were to ride English I'd use the little Supracor half pad that i picked up on Ebay for an even $100. I'd figure out some way to be sure it stayed tented way up down the spine and there would be very little heat. There are air holes in the Supracor. Can't say enough about Supracor. I won't use anything else. I expect that without it Hondo would have had back problems by now.

I wear a backpack working on trails a lot and I don't want any bigger area touching my back than is necessary.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> English saddle doesn't need to slip off of it pad.


They are notorious for this. I've narrowly escaped death when friends' saddle pads came flying back at my horse suddenly after working themselves loose. This is why many english pads come with velcro straps or loops to hold them in place. Cowboy hats are dangerous too, when your horse dives and ducks to avoid getting hit by one.

But seriously, because the whole skirt of the western saddle is wide, and because the whole saddle already has a big flat skirt integrated into it, a western saddle is more forgiving of being lifted up a little bit on a thick pad. If a thick pad lifts an english saddle up, you lose the entire fit that keeps it on the horse. So it will slide right over the side of the horse. The only way you can use a thick pad with an english saddle is if it is wide enough for the pad to fit between the channel and allow the panels to still remain close to the horse. 
In most cases (when I've tried it), the thick pad means the front of the panels that are supposed to lie close to the shoulder get lifted up and that essentially makes the saddle fit too narrow to stay in place. 
See the panels in this photo, and imagine if they are lifted up higher by a thick pad. Then they won't lay against the horse.








So then you think, no problem, just get a wider saddle to accommodate the pad. But at that width, usually the center of the saddle will contact the horse's spine on the pad somewhere down the channel. So you lose your spinal clearance. It's tricky!

On another topic, how do people prioritize having a girth loose (supposedly so the horse can breathe better), versus having the saddle slopping all over the horse's back when riding? Maybe this is primarily an issue for people with horses that have very round backs and barrels. But the ruffled hair and friction that happens when a horse is working hard with a very loose cinch...how is that avoided? Or why is that less of a priority? It is my belief that my horses prefer having the cinch snug enough that the saddle does not move side to side and back and forward as they run. I was just watching a Clinton Anderson video, and he was spending a lot of time hefting his weight into the offside stirrup to straighten his saddle up. When he got on, the saddle came over about three inches to the side. 


Hondo said:


> Don't laugh gottatrot. I'm seriously thinking about putting the small "AirHawk 2" seat pad on top of the hammock but below the leather. It's so easy to do stuff like that with the UP/Trooper saddle. I will at least try it for 100% certain....
> ...Someday we'll have 3D printed saddles to the exact dimensions of our horses with air pads for both the horse and us. Won't that be wonderful?


OK, I did laugh.
Maybe you'll invent something new...saddles with bike seats for comfort. 
I'll be the first in line for a 3D printed saddle.

No matter what you do to trim horses right, some can never overcome the past things that have shaped their hooves. Some can never have hard, tough hooves or thick soles. I think sometimes it's genetic, and sometimes it's because of past trimming practices or management practices as the hooves were developing. Or damage done later on in life. 

In that type of environment, I think it's great you have that type of hoof protection. 

I currently have an expensive saddle pad that didn't work out and I need to sell. It's a Haf pad with barefoot inserts. 








It's very shock absorbing, but I originally bought it with my treeless saddle since everyone says you need a pad with inserts to help form a channel. But my Ghost treeless has a built in channel, and my weight is not enough to compress the channel to where the saddle touches the spine. So the extra padding just makes the saddle less stable.
I thought I could use it under my dressage saddle, but it's too thick so makes it slide more, and also it's not big enough to protect Halla's barrel. She has an odd barrel, very flat sided, and english saddle flaps are more rounded. So if I don't have padding around the flaps, the leather will rub or dig into her barrel and the hair will come off and she'll start to get abraded. I've never had this problem with another horse. 

I wonder if Bandit has this issue? 

The pad is so nice that I've held onto it for over a year, just hoping I'll find some use for it. But I haven't.
I'm starting to get sold on these Supracor saddle pads. I always go and read about things on Horse Tack Review.com - Reviews of horse tack and rider supplies!
They do get mainly rave reviews. I like my Thinline, which is very shock absorbing. I wonder if I could put a Supracor over my Thinline since it is so thin, and have the benefits of both.


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## Hondo

Speaking of loose cinches: I've been running my cinch very loose since using breeching. The breeching really helps keep the saddle in place. I've only been snugging the cinch lightly and by the time I've ridden a ways I can put my fist between it and Hondo.

Well, yesterday on the barefoot hind test ride Hondo and I were sleeping when a huge jackrabbit jumped out in front of us. Hondo went sideways only about 5 feet, I weighted a stirrup, the saddle rotated about 15 degrees. The ground was happily pretty soft. Loose cinch=not good. Makes sense about the hair getting pulled around also. Surprising that whats-his-name would be doing that.

I do not plan to use a pad with my Trooper. The plan is to use the Supracor built in as the panel under the sweat flap. I'll figure some easy removal feature for cleaning which it really doesn't need much of.

I use the Supracor Endurance Cool Grip. It's the only saddle pad I've ever used. I read about it on an endurance tack review when I first got my saddle. It is 3/4" thick and fairly stiff. I also picked up a Dressage Cool Grip off Ebay. It is small and very very soft. I've read positive things about people using it under an English saddle. Hmmm.....I used to wonder what those sewed in leather tabs were for on the front of the pad. For tying them in place I'd reckon!

Hondo and Dragon live and eat the same. Dragon has cast iron hoof walls while Hondo's is soft. Rimmey's is in between. I'm putting it down to genetics. That said, if Hondo was living in the rocks 24/7 he'd likely survive by hardening up both hoof wall and sole.

He's comfortable on reasonable dirt and the beach of course would be fine. But there is very little reasonable dirt around here and no beach. So GC's it is and will be.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...She has an odd barrel, very flat sided, and english saddle flaps are more rounded. So if I don't have padding around the flaps, the leather will rub or dig into her barrel and the hair will come off and she'll start to get abraded. I've never had this problem with another horse.
> 
> I wonder if Bandit has this issue?...


Not at all. Most of my Aussie saddle time was with Mia:










The inner flap is almost as big as the outer one, so you can see how the girth should be pressing the edge against her side. But in all the miles of riding like this, there was never any abrasion. 

I've only used the Aussie saddle a few times with Bandit. Bandit is more slab-sided than Mia...and there MAY be a little rubbing there. I haven't done any long rides with him in the Aussie. I like how it feels for me, but I don't trust it to fit him very well. The flocking had gotten kind of hard - it's been 8 years, which I believe is longer than they recommend to go without reflocking, even of quality stuffing (which the DownUnder is NOT). He rides OK in it, but he is the sort who would do OK even if the saddle didn't fit right.

I've adopted standards for saddle fit along the lines of: Does it shift much when mounting? Does the horse relax? Will the horse stretch out and act eager compared to another saddle? Are the hairs and sweat smooth and even after the ride? How does the horse do at a sitting trot?

None of that is perfect. Mia could act pretty willing and eager even with a bad saddle fit. When she was in the mood to go, which was often, she wouldn't let something like a saddle get in her way! She was fundamentally a very willing and eager to please horse, which is why she would try hard up until she just couldn't do X any longer - and then snap. Bandit is less willing, but the flip side is he expresses concern earlier. It makes it easier to pull back before he is at the breaking point.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We have five horses and seven saddles. Each horse has their own western saddle and then one of which is an amorphous, treeless and is more of an enhanced bareback pad. The last is an Aussie I picked up for the first horse I owned years ago, that no one ever uses. When tooling around home, we just ride bareback.

What I have found is that as long as the saddle generally fits, the role of pads is simply to make the common changes from season to season, year to year, less of an issue in fit. My body looks nothing like it did when I was 30 and is still changing as I get into my 50’s. This is something that a lot of us women understand….”fat clothes” and skinny clothes. There are just times where you need a little extra give in certain places! My horses are a little bit like that. 

So, rather than fitting them perfectly in a saddle using one point in time as standard, I go with a general good fit and then use a good 1” or 3/4" thick compressed wool pad. No one has complained yet, nor have they ended up with sores. I can get ten pads for the price of one decent saddle. 

We have 5 horses, three riders, all of whom use different sized seats. I can ride my DH’s 16” seat though I prefer my 14.5” seat. We range in weight from 95 lbs to 175 lbs. I can ride my daughter’s 13.5” seat though I am “screwed in tight”. If we were to get one saddle to exactly match each horse and rider it would equal 15 saddles and would require building an entirely new tack room! That doesn't accommodate for the differences in our guest riders.

So, I guess the long and short of it for us is to get a good initial fit, then keep an eye on it; use a good thick standard wool pad to compensate for the little changes that happen, keep your own weight and fitness level within the same range and, as long as there isn’t a problem, go with what you’ve got. 

As for cinches…Oliver likes to bloat. He’s always had that habit, though it has gotten a bit better since I started riding in a looser cinch. This means I always ended up having to check the cinch 3 times. Once the first time I cinch up. Again, after the arena warm up and a third time at some point on the trails. 

The first cinch up is as loose as I can make it (I have a mounting block available in the arena). The second is still loose but, a bit tighter than before, the third I am finding he no longer bloats as much as he used to. I haven’t actually had to tighten the cinch out on the trails in a very long time but, I still check. 

Ladies, again, something you might be familiar with, a bra that is so tight you can barely breathe and all day long whenever you have a moment, all you can think about is to get home and put on a nice comfy sports bra (or nothing!). There is a difference between a bra that gets the job done and one that is so tight as to be restrictive to comfort. I imagine it is not so different for our horses.


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## bsms

I just got back from a short hike, checking out a trail our church group will use Saturday. There is about 0.5 miles of gently rising terrain, then a climb of about 1000' in a little over a mile, then gradually rising terrain for another mile past that. Not a long hike, but the climb got my attention.

This morning, I used my running shoes. The advantages were lighter weight and canvas for cooling. On Saturday, I may use my hiking boots. Their disadvantages are greater weight and less potential for cooling. Their advantages will be good protection from rocks for my feet and the foot of the boot seems to stay cooler while going across hot ground.

For this trail, it may be a wash - either one will do about as good. For jogging, the running shoes are best...by a mile. Or three. But the full hike Saturday will take us deeper in past the original climb. My feet might prefer extra protection from the rocks and my ankles might prefer extra support when I'm tired. If I had to carry a 30 lb backpack, I'd go with the boots.

And regardless, when I get home, I'm probably going to take my shoes - whichever ones I choose - off, rinse my feet in cool water...and wear socks for the rest of the day!

For a lot of the riding I do, I suspect my horses don't care about which saddle I use, provided it is 'close enough'. When a 220 lb guy comes out who has never ridden a horse before, I suspect they would prefer the western saddle, and want the fit to be as near perfect as possible. And at this time of year, they seem to appreciate a rinse down at the end, followed by a good roll.

All we had for flowers today...not much like Oregon:








​
The youngest, without Trooper this time. And yes, she's wearing a vest and a tie for hiking:










Some folks came out riding horses. Bandit would not be ready for this. Cowboy would handle it, if asked, but Bandit would probably be spooky and not sure footed enough. He needs more practice before I could even think of riding him out here. There were places where a horse who slipped could fall a long way.​​


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs I'm a little puzzled by this statement. ;"the role of pads is simply to make the common changes from season to season"


@bsms Nice looking trail! Got a lot like that around here. Are horses allowed on it?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs I'm a little puzzled by this statement. ;"the role of pads is simply to make the common changes from season to season"
> 
> 
> @bsms Nice looking trail! Got a lot like that around here. Are horses allowed on it?


Oliver, Caspian and Bella are easy keepers. Ghost and Cowboy are not. Over the winter they tend to drop a little weight; nothing drastic but their shape changes...

The horses (with the exception of Old Ghost) get ridden more in the fall-spring and less so in the summer. They are not "legged up" as much at certain times of year; this includes the muscles around their whithers and spines. With consistent proper riding and saddle fit, by the end of the season those muscles fill back in and build back up giving them a slightly different shape. Muscles that are not used naturally atrophy. Our horses don't have miles to roam on their own and are generally pretty chilled out, not doing a lot of running around by themselves.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ... @*bsms* Nice looking trail! Got a lot like that around here. Are horses allowed on it?


Yes. We stood aside and let a couple go past us. I mentioned to the riders - an older couple than me - that my horse wouldn't be able to handle it. They said horses needed to be exposed gradually and learn to handle themselves in that terrain.

I agree. I believe Bandit grew up in an area like this:










If so, it is understandable why he would have felt vulnerable when he can't see far to either side, or when a wash only allows him one direction of travel.

Long ago, I read a description of saguaros as being like walking in on a cocktail party of 50' tall, spiny creatures, who all stop talking so they can watch the puny interlopers walking between them. I think that is how Bandit would feel! I intimidates me, at least a little. I think he could handle the trail, but not the giants looking down on him (Internet photo):


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs I was thinking about this while out riding and concluded that you must mean different saddle pad thicknesses depending on how much (xtra) they acquire over the winter?

I just had a couple of new experiences on my ride this afternoon. A horse rearing what felt like vertical (probably more like a 45) and a horse throwing some pretty decent bucks. They actually felt kind of good. I was thinking, "Hey I can do this". 

Ground bees. My upper lip is at least twice the size of normal. After the second buck he stopped and I decided to get off before he got hit again and it became not so fun. About half way off he got hit again. He stayed with me ahold of the reins but when I saw more flying around I dropped the reins and started running as did he. Turned my collar up and covered my face with my handkerchief and and didn't get hit again. He stopped a ways down the field and we went on our ride without further events.

I think I need to gain some abilities at the gallop. When I saw the first one around my head we could have out ran them and nobody would have gotten stung.

@bsms I think I have a death wish. I love riding those trails. Would not want to encounter the bees there though.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> All we had for flowers today...not much like Oregon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Those are incredible. In all our travels we've not yet seen cacti that large. The parts of CA, AZ and NM we've been in had smaller plants. 
I've heard the bloom in California is better this year than they've seen in many years. Is it that way in Arizona also? 
@Hondo, bees and wasps are the worst. It's only happened to me a couple of times on horses so far, but I've also seen friends get hit. With many horses it means instant bucking or bolting. A doctor I know sent her horse back to the trainer for an unexpected bolt, thinking the horse was not yet well trained. But the trainer found the massive swelling on the horse's underbelly from getting stung. The doctor said, "I can't have that kind of thing." I told her it was to be expected from any horse, honestly. When I've been stung I holler and run too. Your post made me visualize a funny image of horse and rider bolting away from the bees separately.
@Reiningcatsanddogs: It sounds right to have more saddles than horses. It's always been that way for me too. When I only had one horse, I had a western, hunt seat and dressage saddle.

Well, my new "smart" phone died after less than 24 hours. I tried every reset, hard reset and button fix I could find online. It's dead. Black screen of death while the buttons continue to bleep. 
The computer won't recognize any data inside when I connect it via cable. I'll have to return it.

Meanwhile, I am remembering what it is like to get Halla back into working again. This is the fifth time or so I've done it, and it's quite a crazy thing. The two times that were most involved up to this point were when she had her knee injuries, and after her Vitamin E deficiency. 

There is this tenuous period of time where Halla starts feeling great, and the energy bursts out of her body. Getting this horse into shape is quite tricky. There is this nice, safe period where she is very out of shape and content to walk along and do a little jogging. There is also the final outcome where she has gained enough fitness to where I feel safe to let her canter for some distance and let her energy burn off. 

The between time is what we are getting into now, and that is the time that requires a lot of skill and caution. I have to manage her energy safely, without letting her run off too soon and harm herself. But she is not a horse that is good at doing a moderate pace without ever going fast. Keeping her speed and energy contained is very tough. 

Today we went along a little trail and then around one of the big fields. When she is like this, applying pressure to the rein is like you're holding down the volume up button for a TV. The longer you hold it, the louder it gets, and when you hold the rein her pressure goes up that fast. 

When she's fit, Halla will tolerate even constant pressure on the bit. She'll work into and through it. When she's in this between state of too much energy that I can't just run off of her, I have to keep a loose rein and apply the aids very judiciously. However, she is also extra responsive to a light touch on the rein, so that's different too. 

There was no chance we were just walking today, so I tried to let the energy out with short periods of trotting and tried to keep any canter down to three strides. Halla knew I was going to hold her speed back, so when she cantered she'd burst into it, and leap very high for a couple strides. But when I touched the rein she'd come right out of it. 

I don't want her to fall into any of the bad crookedness habits she learned after her Vitamin E deficiency. She doesn't have that kind of muscle wasting, so I don't think that will be an issue. I directed her energy sideways several times when she wanted to progress rapidly forward toward rough ground I wanted to miss, and she stayed straight through her body or followed the bend I asked for so that was good. Yeesh, even a short ride can turn into a workout.

People always ask in posts about how to "shut down" a horse. If you rode Halla you'd understand how dangerous thinking that way could be with some horses. You can easily feel when riding her that any attempt to shut down the energy is going to push the volume button up up up until the horse explodes and leaves you in a pile on the ground. 
You cannot shut her down; instead, you have to manage her energy. Let it out, let her go a few steps, and then gather her back in. When the energy rises, do that again. It's interesting how this will gradually bring the energy back down until she's walking calmly again, but trying to stop her or keep her speed too slow initially will ramp up her energy until it is out of control. 

She's just that kind of horse, and even at 21 now. But I know that once I have her running on the beach a couple times a week again, she'll be a lot more docile. Nala is the same, a hotblood for sure. They will get more mellow if totally out of work and not being asked to do a thing. They will also be mellow if they are in hard work. But they don't tolerate working lightly. It's not in their nature.


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## Hondo

At 75 YO I just don't think I'd want a horse that energetic, nor could I ride one anyhow. At 40 +/-? Absolutely! When I see Hondo galloping across the field I admit to some yearning within.

With the GC's on the hinds yesterday he seemed to break into a trot even more than he's been doing since the gullet cut-out in his pad. I'm finally starting to sit the slow trot some. I'm not bouncing exactly but there is still more pressure variation on the up/down than I'm thinking there should be. But I don't know what a proper sitting trot should feel like. Probably be hard to describe. Sort of like describing what yellow or red is.

Dragon does fine being ponied but occasionally when something alerts him he'll just stop kerplunk. And if I don't get Hondo stopped in time I'm leaning way back and often have to drop the lead. Hondo really expresses irritation when he has to turn around to go back and pick Dragon back up.

Knowing that packers often tie one horse securely to another gave me the idea of ponying Rimmey with Dragon tied securely to the pack saddle. That way Rimmey could keep Dragon from stopping. Seemed like a good training exercise for Dragon.

After the bee incident yesterday I was visualizing what kind of wreck could occur between Rimmey and Dragon with bees if they could not break loose from one another. The pictures I came up with were not pretty. So if I pony both I'll be using a breakaway. Hopefully that won't teach Dragon that he can always break away when he wants to.

It'd be fun to make some pack trips with all three. I like being out there in the boonies. And boonies I've got a lot of. The ranch even borders a Wilderness area with the Prescott National Forest only 1.5 miles away. Sometimes I almost feel guilty. Naw!


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## gottatrot

Somewhere I read that riding the sitting trot feels like pedaling a bicycle backwards. It's kind of true. Since the trot switches diagonals with each stride, if you are relaxed one of your legs will fall a little farther down toward the ground than the other. I think it helps to think of the trot as a side to side movement as well as an up and down movement (for the rider), because the back muscles alternate in flexing and relaxing on either side of the spine. 

When I sit the trot (and this is most helpful in horses that are trotting very big and striding out), I push slightly down with one of my legs, alternating side to side with whichever of the horse's back back muscles are lower. This makes your body stay down with the horse instead of being pushed up. So you don't bounce much. It makes your pelvis and/or hips tilt down so one side stays up with the side of the horse that is higher, and the other side stays down with the side of the horse that is lower. 

This gal describes well how to push down with the legs and absorb the upward shock with your ankles. I don't think you really need to overuse your abdominals or back, as she describes, and she doesn't emphasize the lateral motion which I find really helpful. You just don't come up and down exactly evenly, because of the horse's back muscles and leg movement which is uneven.


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## horseluvr2524

As for flowers, I feel like we have had an extremely long spring here. Lots of people have been breaking out with strange rashes on their skin. The palo verdes are only just now getting to the end of their blooms, and I think they started in late December. The cacti are still blooming plenty though.
We have lots of saguaros like bsms posted here too. Not usually so many clustered together though.


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## Hondo

Yes!! This spring in Arizona is and has been a spring to die for. It has been sooooooo great.

I'm going to have to do some visualizations on oscillating my legs to the trot. I guess I could watch his shoulders and try to match the rhythm?

The girl in the video almost talks faster than I can listen But I paid attention to what she said. That horse sure didn't seem to like that bit, especially at the last.

I wish there was a simulator somewhere nearby. I'd like to spend some time on it.

Here is a video I downloaded and redid in slow motion and have watched a few times. Watching what she's doing in slow motion and visualizing that while trotting seems to have helped a lot.

Is she doing everything right? Doesn't show the hip action. I know I don't do that but I can see how it would absorb a lot and keep a person seated. Hondo has a nice jog but with his upright pasterns he can get kind of rough at speed.


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## bsms

Sitting trot works fine at a jog:










Maybe it is my nagging back injury from Jan 2009, but I don't think a sitting trot has much going for it as the horse's pace picks up:










I know MY lower back cannot absorb the motion of a fast trot for any length of time without a lot of pain afterward. Posting and two point are, IMHO, at least as valuable to saving my back as the horse's...


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## tinyliny

my back is not able to absorb the motion of a big sitting trot. so, I rarely sit much. 

the second video shows a horse with a very big trot. most of us don't ride horses with that big of motion. sometimes you see riders in that leaning back position and it looks a bit like they are 'water skiing' on the horse, what with how they hold the reins, and how the horse plows onto the forehand.


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## Hondo

Just for fun I uploaded the slow motion version. I've watched it very carefully a few times now, watching all the rider and horse movements. When i visualize that and start getting it right, Hondo tends to keep trotting rather than decide if I'm gonna bounce he's gonna walk.

Same with the lady and the white donkey. Visualizing that really improved my seat during a spook. I wish the slow motion trotting had a view from the rear to watch the hips tilting which I'm sure they are.

I watched another video where leaning back a little was recommended. Harley Davidson riders, particularly the older motorcycles with no rear suspension, adopted the leaning back position to remove the vertical thrust up the back bone. It looks like that may be working on the sitting trot.

Her legs seem to be just swinging freely as the horse moves them which should absorb some energy.

I notice her shirt or tummy really pooches out in front just before she starts moving back, and then goes flat just before she begins moving forward and up again.

She's definitely not bouncing.


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## gottatrot

In the slow motion video, if you watch her knee and foot you can see how her leg is pushing down every time a front leg is on the ground. 
In a way, posting trot to me seems like two pointing on the horse's back. The motion is the same. 

I'm not a big fan of leaning back, I think body mechanics are important and our spine is a major shock absorber in our body. Taking the natural curve out of the spine is going to be harder on our back than if we try to sit with our body vertical to the ground. 
I think an upper body position more like this will tend to absorb the forces of the horse's movement better.








I've read about people going to clinics in Germany where they really emphasize using your back to ride and certain aesthetic positions, and coming home with back spasms and needing chiropractic work. I'm riding for the long term, so I believe body mechanics are very important, more important than a certain "look." 

For me, the use of sitting trot is rare. I rarely find myself on a horse that jogs along slowly, without enough momentum to really lift me up and then it is just easier to absorb the motion and stay seated. On big moving horses and at speed, posting or two pointing is what I do. 

However, I have some uses for sitting trot. One time I often use sitting trot is when I'm working on trotting very small circles, when strengthening a horse. It feels like the horse has to work harder if I'm staying down near her back, rather than helping the balance by rising on the inside front leg. So I do it to make the horse use her bending muscles a bit more. Especially with a younger horse that has developed some back strength but still does not bend well. I'm not sure if that's accurate scientifically, but that's what it feels like so it's something I try.


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## Hondo

I've been told posting is lots lots easier on the horse and that they can go lots farther when the rider posts. Two point is out for me as I've done far too much two pointing already in my past and don't have the knees left for it.

I'll go back and check out her legs again in comparison to the horses legs. I was trotting a tiny bit today and really could not feel the difference of pressure from on side to the other. But it's new to me. I remember not long ago I said, "Wow! I can tell which front leg is down when walking!" That was a great moment. He's liking to trot more now so I'll probably one day say wow a can feel the difference now.

But most of the day was on high narrow trails that are difficult enough to negotiate at the walk in spots.

I'm betting by this time next year i'll be sitting and posting. I'm in no hurry.

I really have a hard time even looking at pictures with the horse's head pulled way back like that. It just seems so unnatural not to speak of very uncomfortable. I just don't understand it.

Edit: Yeah, I went back and looked. I had thought her leg was going down with just one front leg but it's going down on each front leg.


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## tinyliny

Hondo, when I read that you did a flying dismount from a bucking , bee stung horse . . . at the age of 75, I nearly choked! I can't do it at all, and I'm just shy of 60.


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## gottatrot

Oops, I said it wrong. I meant, "sitting trot to me seems like two pointing on the horse's back. The motion is the same." I said posting trot instead of sitting.
Sitting trot is two pointing so low that you don't leave the horse's back. That sounds odd, but that's what would happen if you two pointed lower and lower...eventually you'd be doing sitting trot.

Even when I do sitting trot, I don't fully put my weight down on the horse's back. That is something I reserve for walking only, and only on occasion. Most of the time I take part of my weight off the back, even if it's only 5% of my weight. 

I also want to clarify that I don't think the rider's position in the photo is something to copy as a position (and obviously he has his horse's head cranked back). Rather, I think he appears to be taking the gravity down his spine with better shock absorption than the girl in the video who is leaning back behind the vertical. What I think we should do is try to feel how our body is being pulled by gravity, and line up our joints and spine so they take that shock down toward the ground as well as possible. The horse's momentum will change the angle of where this feels right. But to me, that is moving with the horse's center of gravity and momentum rather than being behind or in front of the motion.


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## bsms

FWIW:

The stability of the rider in the Y-direction was significantly highest in the two-point seat, followed by the rising trot and the sitting trot, respectively. In the X-direction, there was no significant difference between the three positions. The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N) and the two-point seat (1688 N). The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting trot.

A comparison of forces acting on the horse?s back and the stability of the rider?s seat in different positions at the trot

This one may be interesting, although I couldn't figure it out:

Influence of girth strap placement and panel flocking material on the saddle pressure pattern during riding of horses - BYSTR[]M - 2010 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library

Results: Sitting trot had an overall extending effect on the back of horses when compared to the unloaded situation. In rising trot: the maximal flexion of the back was similar to the unloaded situation, while the maximal extension was similar to sitting trot; lateral bending of the back was larger than during the unloaded situation and sitting trot; and the horses held their heads lower than in the other conditions. The angle of C6 was more flexed in rising than in sitting trot.

Conclusions and clinical relevance: The back movement during rising trot showed characteristics of both sitting trot and the unloaded condition. As the same maximal extension of the back is reached during rising and sitting trot, there is no reason to believe that rising trot was less challenging for the back.

The effect of rising and sitting trot on back movements and head-neck position of the horse - COCQ - 2009 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library

As expected, the computed average vertical force did not differ between riding techniques and was not significantly different from the body weight of the riders. At trot, two force peaks were present during one stride cycle. Both peaks in rising trot were significantly lower compared to sitting trot (peak 1: 2.54±0.30 versus 2.92±0.29; p<0.001; peak 2: 1.95±0.34 versus 3.03±0.32; p<0.001). This supports the general assumption that rising trot is less demanding for the horse than sitting trot.

Vertical forces on the horse's back in sitting and rising trot

Although I'm less than thrilled by my riding, I find what happens when I stand in the stirrups interesting:






My goal was to keep my center of gravity at a level distance above the ground, which would give my horse the least amount of work to do. I failed, and probably always will. In watching the video from last November, I realized I CANNOT keep my CG steady. At the downward stroke, my legs can absorb the stress - which would distribute the force over a longer period of time, reducing PEAK impacts. But I would need to proactively be stretching my legs down during the downward stroke, and I just cannot do that.

I can keep my butt from smacking down into the saddle. I had a Buck folding knife (Ranger) in my back pocket the day this was filmed, and that is a big wad of steel! It would have punished me if I had been riding heavy on my pockets - as I believe a lot of dressage and western riders do when sitting the trot. But reducing the peak forces by spreading the load out over a longer time would certainly help my horse, and explains why he will stretch out his stride when I stand in the stirrups.

Mia had a great "jog". It wasn't something I taught her. She just enjoyed doing it sometimes. My daughter called it her "Happy Feet Trot" - a short, flat trotting stride. Sitting it was not only effortless, but fun. It was MORE comfortable than her walk. It wasn't as fast as an extended trot, but faster than her walk - and she walked fast. I never got to watch it from the ground, but I'm told there was almost no vertical movement - just propelling herself forward faster by pushing with her feet in the horizontal.

Where I live, there isn't any place to trot or canter for miles. Not even 1/2 mile, that I know of. You can go faster for 100-300 yards, then will hit a rocky section that will destroy a horse's hooves if you don't slow the horse down - as my daughter discovered once with Trooper. Thus our trotting and cantering is all done is spurts - a couple hundred yards or less, then slow and walk, then trot again. Since it is done is short bursts, I find it easier to stand in the stirrups (some people say that is not two point, although I think it is). Stand, trot a couple hundred yards, sit, walk across the rocky spots. Repeat as needed.

It makes sense to do a quick trot or canter (whichever the horse prefers) on the smooth spots, then slow. Left to their own devices, horses will seek out the most mechanically efficient speed for their build, like shifting gears. Of course, excitement can cause them to work far harder at times, but their build gives them a certain speed at a given gait that is their most efficient (and rider weight plays a role, there, too).

I got a short ride in on Bandit this morning before the winds picked up. Also fighting a cold, which is kicking my butt right now. We stayed mostly in the arena and worked on trotting and cantering circles and turns, working right turns at a 2:1 ratio - right being his difficult direction to turn. It occurred to me that someone who wanted to cue their horse continually with their spurs, as is often done in dressage and reining, would want to sit the trot more - so they could give precise cues. For someone like myself, who can't imagine trying to cue my horse with every stride...no reason to sit the trot that I can think of.

Unless it was Mia doing her Happy Feet Trot. It was hard not to smile while sitting THAT! :mrgreen:

PS: This is also interesting, I think:

We hypothesised that trotters during an extended trot have lower energetic costs of locomotion (CT) than horses not bred for this behaviour. V?O2 was measured as a function of speed in 7 Arabian horses (3 trained to extend their trotting speeds) and in 2 horses, of similar mass, bred to trot (Hackney). Both oxygen consumption and CT increased with speed and there was, contrary to our hypothesis, no difference between breeds. In Arabians at 6.5 m/s, CT had increased 25% above the CT at 5.0 m/s (normal transition speed). For Hackneys at 6.8 m/s, the CT was almost 35% higher. Stride frequencies increased linearly in all horses up to 5.0 m/s. At the canter at 5.0 m/s, the frequency increased 9% to 111 strides/min, but then increased minimally with speed. In the Hackneys and the Arabians that extended the trot, stride frequencies were approximately 102 and did not increase with speed. Stride length (SL) increased linearly with speed in both trotting and cantering horses, and cantering SL were lower than trotting (at 5.0 m/s, SL for trotting = 3.04 m and for cantering SL = 2.68 m). There were no differences between breeds in stride frequency or stride length.

Extending the trot can have profound energetic requirements that could limit athletic performance and may lead to increased concussive impact on the limbs.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2002.tb05404.x/full


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Conclusions and clinical relevance: The back movement during rising trot showed characteristics of both sitting trot and the unloaded condition. As the same maximal extension of the back is reached during rising and sitting trot, there is no reason to believe that rising trot was less challenging for the back.


Very interesting studies.

So the back muscles move the same in rising or sitting trot, but the pressure on the back is more in a sitting trot. So it must be more work for the horse to have the rider sit the trot. Even if the back muscles extend as far, if there is more pressure on them it must be a little more challenging for the back. Just thinking of my own experiences with doing small circles at the sitting trot vs rising. The horse feels like he is working harder, but perhaps loading the back muscles creates more work for the legs. Or maybe taking some of the loading off the back makes it easier to bend? Somehow sitting trot seems to help with strengthening for that type of work. 



bsms said:


> My goal was to keep my center of gravity at a level distance above the ground, which would give my horse the least amount of work to do. I failed, and probably always will. In watching the video from last November, I realized I CANNOT keep my CG steady. At the downward stroke, my legs can absorb the stress - which would distribute the force over a longer period of time, reducing PEAK impacts. But I would need to proactively be stretching my legs down during the downward stroke, and I just cannot do that.


I don't think we can/should keep our center of gravity at a level distance above the ground, because the horse's center of gravity does not stay at a level distance from the ground. If you watch Bandit's core in the video, it is going up and down. Yours is going up and down too. So I think moving with the horse's COG will create the least impact on the horse.



bsms said:


> Left to their own devices, horses will seek out the most mechanically efficient speed for their build, like shifting gears. Of course, excitement can cause them to work far harder at times, but their build gives them a certain speed at a given gait that is their most efficient (and rider weight plays a role, there, too).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extending the trot can have profound energetic requirements that could limit athletic performance and may lead to increased concussive impact on the limbs.
> 
> 
> 
> The cost of transport in an extended trot - WICKLER - 2002 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library
Click to expand...

This interests me because I believe this is true for certain horses and not for others. I've read endurance related articles about horses with heart rates that go down when the rider switches from trot to canter. The study has a few horses, some of which they say are bred for trotting. I'm not sure if a Hackney is the best choice as a trotter, perhaps a Standardbred would show different results. A Hackney is bred for an extravagant trot, not a fast or efficient one. 

Anyway, I've seen that some horses are more efficient at the extended trot. Amore has an amazing extended trot. She overtracks with her hinds and is very flexible, and she gets very relaxed in this huge trot and can go for hours. In a canter, she gets tired much faster. She can jog, but her conformation isn't well suited for going slow, and I believe it requires more work for her to do a slow jog than a regular trot. And her extended trot is much easier for her than a canter.

Halla is not efficient at extended trot, so she'd be like the horses in the study. She relaxes and works less hard at the canter. 
I understand that the intestines actually help horses breathe at the canter, and the forward momentum of their GI contents pushes against the diaphram and makes the work of breathing easier. But I am wondering if for some horses this doesn't work as well, if they are built downhill and the intestines tend to keep pushing on the diaphram and they have to use muscles to expand the lungs again.

I've ridden some beautiful joggers so I see the appeal. One mare I've ridden bareback and she was probably slightly overweight but so cushy and padded with the smoothest jog that you could just sit there and cruise, feeling like nothing would ever make you fall off that "couch."


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## bsms

The researcher who wrote this:

"_As the same maximal extension of the back is reached during rising and sitting trot, there is no reason to believe that rising trot was less challenging for the back._"

did not, IMHO, understand the totality of back movement in the horse. While the maximum sag, to use a less clinical but more vivid term, is the same either way, the average sag apparently is less with posting, and the horse's back gets periods of relief between the cyclical maximum sag. I would think an approach that rhythmically alternated between maximum sag and unloaded would be much easier for the horse's back that one that remained constantly at maximum sag.

Watching my video again, and thinking about how it felt when trotting yesterday, I'd compare it to flying jets. When you push over from a climb into a dive, there is a moment when the harness keeps you from floating in the cockpit - when the jet starts to move down underneath you and therefor you rise in the cockpit. That is what happened to me while doing a standing trot. Since I'm not strapped down in the saddle, there is a moment when his body starts to go down, and mine is still on an upward vector from the thrust of his body 0.1 seconds earlier.

There really is nothing I can do to prevent it, and maybe I shouldn't wish otherwise. That transition moment gives his back total relief.

Of course, at the bottom, just like when one does a loop in a jet, there is also a moment when my body is trying to continue downward even as his starts to rise again. That creates downward pressure on his back - but apparently no more so than happens almost continuously in a sitting trot. And by using the stirrups, I can smooth that impact out by folding my body and legs slightly as my horse and the stirrups start their upward motion.

As a practical matter, without instruments, I know it is much easier for me to get a horse to stride long and strong when standing in the stirrups than when sitting on the back. The downside is that it is harder for me to maintain my balance if the horse suddenly changes direction while I am out of the saddle. Freedom for my horse versus security in my seat. As Bandit becomes more trustworthy (and less likely to spook and violently change direction without telling me first), I can do more to protect his back. 

But since Mia could, at ANY time, spin violently 360 degrees or more for reasons that even she didn't seem to understand, I had to emphasize security at all times - even just riding down a paved road with no visible threat. I learned to ride braced on her back at all times because I needed to be braced against the unexpected spin. 

I had to play Inspector Clouseau to her Cato:​ 





I'm trying to imagine what sort of riding lessons could have prepared me for Mia: "_Brace! Expect the unexpected! Never relax - Cato can jump you at any time! When you least expect it, you should most expect it!_" Bad riding advice, unless your horse IS Cato in the flesh...:think:


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## Hondo

@tinyliny; Ha ha. The dismount was not pretty. Half dismount, half stumbling fall to the ground. I did the dismount using my stirrup. If ever in a similar situation I would use an English no stirrup dismount. That would have worked much better.

Back to all,

I was surprised a while back when my sure enough Texas cowboy friend that used to do wild horse races, rode a buffalo in a rodeo, was the go to cowboy for loose bulls in his area, etc., said, " If you post with a horse, you can go a long ways before he starts tiring". I was surprised because this is a cowboy that had never heard the term pommel. All he knew was fork and saddle horn.

Left out of the analysis is the stability of a rider during a spook. I'm thinking the sitting trot would be more stable at a sideways spook than the top of a post or a two point.

I'd like to know for certain if the girl is putting any pressure on the stirrup. It looks to me like each forward impulse of horse just results in her leg freely swinging back. If so, that would remove the mass of her legs from the horse needing to accelerate them.

I'd like to see a pressure read out under her compared to others riding a sitting trot. Looking at it again it looks to me like her back going back when her pelvis goes forward really takes a lot off the horses back. A few times when I got into this during a few strides it seemed to really reduce the upward force I felt on the buns at the lift.

I'd like to see that same girl doing a bareback sitting trot. I'm betting there would be no difference in her motion.

I'm not sure the going over the top in a jet really applies that much in horse riding. I understand what is said I think, same as going over a jump on a motorcycle, but in the slowtrot video the girls pelvis and back are sort of going in opposite directions during the absorption. That to me is the important phase of the sitting trot. But I'm just learning. But I do think it's the proper relaxed body movement that absorbs the motion of the horse and results in less pressure on his back, but not less than posting of course.

I've tried to find the CRK video where another girl is advising about sort of leaning back a little but can't so I'm uploading it also as I have it saved.

Also just watched a CRK video of an emergency dismount which I intend to practice.

Ok. Here's the sitting trot from CRK:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I learned something about sitting bucks and motion in a dance bar last week…
For my birthday, DH took me to a well-known Texas dance hall for a night of fun (we country western dance) After dancing for a bit and a few glasses of vino, the Beast they call Bessie was calling my name. Bessie is a mechanical bull. 

Hey, it was on my bucket list and we’ll never be any younger than we were then, so we went for it. The guy at the controls said to get my legs forward and squeeze with my knees. I did that the first time I tried and managed to stay on for fifteen seconds. Then I watched DH try to do the same he lasted five seconds.

Then I watched the machine dump several other riders and then move without riders. That thing not only spins but, rolls side to side at the “hips” and “shoulders”. It also bucks and spins from one direction stops suddenly and then spins quickly the other direction.

The second try, I ignored the controller’s suggestion and rode it like I would a bucking horse. There are no stirrups and the only thing you are sitting on is a smooth piece of leather, no cantle, pommel, nada, only a rope to hold.

Try #2 I relaxed my legs (no gripping) and used them as a counter balance to my upper body. That time, I made the record time for the night, didn’t come off until they hit the highest setting. DH has a video of it somewhere on his phone….

Anyway, God forbid I ever ride a horse that is bucking like that but, it taught me something new about the physics of riding both horizontal and vertical motion on a horse. Tension is bad anywhere and the quickest way to come off. 

I now know why when learning to do the sitting trot years ago, my trainer's always had me kick out the stirrups and in some cases removed the saddle entirely and made me do it bareback.


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## bsms

Standing in the stirrups, particularly with long stirrups, is more rigid than having a folded body or a very relaxed body. If I really wanted to minimize motion, I would need to ride more like a jockey - or simply shorten my stirrups a hole or two so my knees and hips could flex more freely.

I do what I do for security. Standing in the stirrups with a long leg means my legs are still firmly pressed against the horse. If the horse suddenly slows or changes direction, my thighs are still carrying a lot of weight and I still have very firm legs wrapped around the horse.

If I shorten the stirrups, I can flex easier and truly absorb more of his motion. But then I need to get my rump pushed out behind me in true Littauer Forward Seat fashion. I find shorter stirrups allow me a lot more flexibility to absorb motion and to keep my center of gravity relatively stable. IF I CAN COUNT ON MY HORSE TO BE PREDICTABLE, shorter stirrups are great.

To compare leg positions:








​ 







​ 







​ 

















​
The cowboy from 1910 obviously is not going to post. But if his horse stumbles on a hole, he'll be driven deeper into the saddle and stirrups. If his horse bucks - at least the type of bucks that primarily lift the rear - same thing. Both Julie Goodnight and the Cavalry taught lengthening the stirrups a hole or two for a green horse. The Cavalry position shown on the standing horse was considered good enough for jumps up to 3', but you were supposed to shorten them further if you wanted to jump higher. In between is where I am and the 1970 book on western equitation taught, although my position is closer to the 1910 cowboy and the 1970 book is closer to Littauer and Gen Chamberlin.

I don't KNOW that is makes one more secure on a spooking horse. To know, I'd have to try multiple ways, on horses who spooked violently, and compare number and intensity of falls. I never did that.

But I DO know it is * A * way that works well for staying on. I adopted it because it had been used by cowboys back when a fall could easily be fatal, and because it is close to what a lot of cutting people used and taught. It worked well at keeping me ON Mia thru many violent spins, leaps forward, jumps sideways, and hundreds of "OMG Crouches" - going from a walk or trot to a dead standstill, front feet splayed out and forward, with a 6" drop in her back. There was a time she did those every quarter mile or so.

*I realize simply "staying on" is considered crude riding*. But I ride on pavement, between cactus and across rocks. Any fall can kill or cripple me. Crude or not, it was essential to my staying alive long enough to work with Mia. About 6 months after I got Bandit, he was ridden by a lifelong rider in his mid-twenties. Bandit took him racing across desert and bucked once hard enough to put the guy on the wrong side of the saddle horn. Only then did he decide to take my advice to make compromises with Bandit!

But I no longer own "Cato". And Bandit is becoming a much more solid citizen. As I come to trust him more, I will probably need to shorten my stirrups. I already have two settings for them: arena and trail. Arena is shorter. And shorter undoubtedly DOES help him perform better.

It might ALSO work very effectively during a spook on the trail. I just don't know. Truth is, I no longer experience many spooks on the trail. He'll sometimes act nervous, or reverse course briefly after giving warning, but the unexpected jumps sideways or violent spins I did with Mia just don't happen, and even the sort of resistance Bandit used to do is largely gone.

It COULD be that my 'secure' position combined with an Aussie saddle kept me in the game long enough to develop the reflexes and seat needed to stay on, even with shorter stirrups. *I may well be doing what so many other riders do - saying X is good because it has worked for me, without ever giving Y or Z a fair test!*

And Y or Z might work as well, or even *better* - if I had the nerve to try them.

But...FWIW, I find it easy to get horses to stride out at a trot standing in the stirrups with a long leg. Maybe I'm stiff, but my horses seem to respond well to it. I want to continue experimenting during my arena time with different approaches to riding. Once we head out, though...we do a LOT of riding at a walk, increasingly off trail.

I think all the studies I've been able to find indicate two-point puts the least pressure on a trotting horse's back. However, it also is a lot of work for the rider. Posting is probably the best compromise. Sitting trot has some value, for brief times, but I view it largely as something people do to show they CAN do it, although the horse may not be happy. Sitting JOG is another matter entirely - seems to be easy on both horse and rider. I have no use for western pleasure type jogs, but would love to figure out a way to teach Bandit to act like Mia, when Mia wasn't acting like Cato:








​


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## bsms

Want to add: Larry Trocha teaches cutting and reining. He says the very long leg traditionally used in cutting is counter-productive, and the rider will stay on BETTER with the stirrup adjusted a little higher. I've also noticed recent cutting videos often show folks riding with a shorter stirrup than traditional.

But if you know a certain habit has worked for you, it is really hard to try to form a new habit in hopes that it will work better...


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs Great report! That's what I'm getting from multiple sources. Stay loose. The cowboy friend I've mentioned said, "Harold, Just stay loose, keep a leg on each side and your mind in the middle. You'll be fine." The lady with the white donkey that helped me get my confidence back did not show any tension at all that I could see.

I'm sure I speak for all when I say I am anxiously looking forward to that video. And I don't wanna hear about not being able to download it off the phone!! 

Edit: Could your later success have been due to the fact that you were, uh, loosened up a little more as the night drew on?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs Great report! That's what I'm getting from multiple sources. Stay loose. The cowboy friend I've mentioned said, "Harold, Just stay loose, keep a leg on each side and your mind in the middle. You'll be fine." The lady with the white donkey that helped me get my confidence back did not show any tension at all that I could see.
> 
> I'm sure I speak for all when I say I am anxiously looking forward to that video. And I don't wanna hear about not being able to download it off the phone!!
> 
> Edit: Could your later success have been due to the fact that you were, uh, *loosened up a little more as the night drew on*?



Nah, it was about half an hour later which was spent observing and as for posting it, I shouldn't have mentioned it.  I was kind of in my short-shorts so...not sure if it is something DH wants to share...


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## tinyliny

Post the video. Post the video!!!


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## tinyliny

as for staying loose, it's very hard to do that for me because if don't have my core engaged , and the horse makes a sudden sharp movment, it could cause real damage to my vulnerable back. while I try to stay loose in my legs, my need to have my core boarded up, makes it hard for me to be loose enough to flow with unexpected movements.


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## tinyliny

bsms said:


> Want to add: Larry Trocha teaches cutting and reining. He says the very long leg traditionally used in cutting is counter-productive, and the rider will stay on BETTER with the stirrup adjusted a little higher. I've also noticed recent cutting videos often show folks riding with a shorter stirrup than traditional.
> 
> But if you know a certain habit has worked for you, it is really hard to try to form a new habit in hopes that it will work better...



i see a lot of dressage riders going in a very straight/long leg. this is not what you would see in a classical dressage manage in Europe. a leg that has a more or less 90 degree angle behind the knee is about correct. a little more open angle for the most advanced rider, perhaps.


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## horseluvr2524

tinyliny said:


> i see a lot of dressage riders going in a very straight/long leg. this is not what you would see in a classical dressage manage in Europe. a leg that has a more or less 90 degree angle behind the knee is about correct. a little more open angle for the most advanced rider, perhaps.


I can't quite visualize this. Could you post a relevant picture?


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## Hondo

@tinyliny90 degree angle behind the knee is pretty a pretty sharp angle. Squats are never supposed to go beyond 90 degrees max. The knee joint actually begins to pull apart past 90 degrees. At least that's what I remember from my past workout gym days. The old deep knee bends turned out to be very hard on knees.

Do you have some back pathologies or just outta shape?

I read somewhere, don't know where, that you're supposed to give the horse everything below the waist while retaining everything above. Like a centaur. Have no idea of the correctness but sounds about right.


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## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> @*tinyliny* 90 degree angle behind the knee is pretty a pretty sharp angle. Squats are never supposed to go beyond 90 degrees max. The knee joint actually begins to pull apart past 90 degrees. At least that's what I remember from my past workout gym days. The old deep knee bends turned out to be very hard on knees.
> the angle is only an issue on the knee when you are bearing weight. in the saddle, the knee is not bearing a tenth of what it would bear if you were doing a squat at that angle, standing.
> Do you have some back pathologies or just outta shape?
> 
> I have both. It's like the circle of life; you damage your back, have constant pain when standing, so things like walking/hiking/ vigorous riding don't feel as good anymore, so yoiu do thme less, get fatter and more out of shape. I have, however, gone way out of shape in the last two years, so no excuses, I need to do what I CAN do to take back some fitness.
> 
> I read somewhere, don't know where, that you're supposed to give the horse everything below the waist while retaining everything above. Like a centaur. Have no idea of the correctness but sounds about right.


yes. the lower body goes with the horse, and your upper body is your responsibility. sometimes, for yuks and giggles, I think of it like this:

my lower body rides the horse and saddle, and my upper body rides . . . . my lower body. I will ride along centering my thinking in how I keep my upper body balanced right over my pelvis, the same way a circus performer keeps a stack of dishes balanced (and spinning) over a thin, vertical pole that is balanced on HIS forhead, as he moves around.


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## gottatrot

I really want to see the video of @*Reiningcatsanddogs* riding the bull!



bsms said:


> Standing in the stirrups, particularly with long stirrups, is more rigid than having a folded body or a very relaxed body....
> ...I don't KNOW that is makes one more secure on a spooking horse. To know, I'd have to try multiple ways, on horses who spooked violently, and compare number and intensity of falls. I never did that...
> ...But I DO know it is * A * way that works well for staying on. I adopted it because it had been used by cowboys back when a fall could easily be fatal, and because it is close to what a lot of cutting people used and taught....
> ...*I realize simply "staying on" is considered crude riding*...


Just staying on can be crude at first. But finding out what truly keeps a rider on during all scenarios turns into excellent riding, in my opinion.

This topic reminded me of some cute cartoons a friend put into a memory book she made for me. I don't know who the cartoonist is, because they were cut out of the book. But they are funny.








I always say to myself, "Relax...Never Relax!" It seems to be so true with horses.










One more...








Will continue the topic next post...


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## gottatrot

I don't think long legs/relaxed/in the saddle is THE most secure way to ride. I used to, after having been taught it was true from dressage lessons.

There is one factor that makes sitting down in the saddle less secure than two pointing. That is the horse's back. The horse's back is what will get you in bad scenarios. Getting off the back will save you if the horse starts bucking, tripping, bolting, etc.

I believe two pointing is the most secure position for riding. That's not saying you have to do it all the time. While I have my body touching the saddle frequently, I am always ready get off of it in an instant. 

My friends taught me to ride this way, and here is a pic of a friend in her ready-to-two-point position. She is touching the saddle, but a good portion of her weight is off the saddle. This position is not tiring, and only requires a small amount of fitness to maintain. But at any second, if you notice where her base of support is, she can lift her body off the saddle. 

If her horse gathered his hind end and bolted a second after this photo was taken, she could raise her body off the seat and would be right with the horse. If he spun in a tight circle or spooked, same thing. This is a very secure seat. It also does not require a lot of flexibility or a pristine body. The friend in the photo has broken her back falling off a horse and had a surgical repair. 

Ironically, the horse she broke her back falling off was the only beginner safe horse out of a half dozen she rode at the time. Anyway, she has had some injuries and issues, and is over 40 at the time of this pic.









I'm doing a two point on this guy with a rough trot. Once you have the balance of it, it is not much different from doing a walking motion on the horse. My closest foot is down a little closer to the ground, and the bend in my leg depends on how long my stirrup is plus how rough the horse is. He is very rough, so I am at this point higher off the saddle so the saddle won't hit me as his back comes up. But I am more secure right here than I would be if I were sitting down on his back relaxed. 

If I were on his back, he could dart at supersonic speed to the right or left and my leg couldn't grip him fast enough or my hands grab mane fast enough to rebalance my upper body. In the two point, whether high or low, as long as my joints are supple their proprioceptors will respond without me having to consciously think about what the horse is doing. The horse could leap straight up in the air, and my knees would flex and my feet would stay oriented toward the ground. My upper body might get a little left behind, but I could remedy that with my balance later. My lower body will stay with the horse.

My ideal is to sit, two point or post at any moment. I ought to be able to switch between all three or stay with one for a period of time as long as I am moving with the horse's momentum.








Possibly because of the way western saddles are made, a person may not be able to achieve as secure of a position in a two point as they can in an english saddle. It could be that in a western saddle, your most secure position is with a longer leg slightly in front of you, your joints slightly bent, and a very low two point or else bracing back against the cantle when things go south. 

The same friend in the above photo also likes to ride braced, after having ridden for years in a western saddle. I notice that when she rides western for awhile, she puts her leg more forward and pushes back against the cantle. But then when she rides english again for awhile, she converts back to the low two point again. 

Here I am sitting for a bit, but as you can see with a horse this rough it requires some joint flexion and I'm ready to rise at any moment.


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## bsms

I measure my stirrup length by how many holes remain in the leather. The length I keep returning to has been 8 holes without sheepskin, and 9 with. The sheepskin adds about 1/2" to the height of the saddle and each hole effectively changes the stirrup about 1/2". My saddle seat is is too large for me - should have bought a 15" instead of 16" - so I'll probably always ride now with sheepskin. It also makes it much easier for me to follow my horse's movements at any gait or speed.

FWIW, when I shorten it to 10 or 11, I find I use my knee more when my horse slows quickly. To get it to even with my ankle bone, I'd have to shorten it to about 12-13. To ride a forward seat the way Littauer & the US Cavalry taught it, I'd need to shorten it to 13, and then push my butt out behind me. This advice for mounting position puts the body into the position they recommended (click on it to enlarge it):










My post yesterday (#1044) had FOUR pictures in it comparing legs positions when I posted it, and I am only seeing one when I go back to look at it - very odd.

But the picture of Gen Patton jumping shows it well, if more extreme. The folded body keeps equal weight in front and to the rear of the stirrups, and the stirrups are the base of support. The body becomes like the pole a tightrope walker uses, with weight out on both ends stabilizing the person - side to side in the case of the tightrope walker, but front to back for the rider.

But the more I fold the leg, the more I find myself using my knee to keep me from sliding forward when my horse suddenly slows, or, in the case of Bandit, when he suddenly switches from going forward to going backwards when he doesn't like something ahead. Even shortening it to 10 or 11 holes results in this change. It is effective still with sheepskin, but leaves me sliding some when riding my slick saddle slick.

At 7, 8, or 9 holes left, my leg is long enough that my legs slide forward a little and the weight flows into the stirrup. Either way works as long as the knee is not too high, but I honestly feel more rooted on my horse when my weight flows into the stirrup.

This paragraph from @gottatrot describes exactly how it feels to me:

"_If I were on his back, he could dart at supersonic speed to the right or left and my leg couldn't grip him fast enough or my hands grab mane fast enough to rebalance my upper body. In the two point, whether high or low, as long as my joints are supple their proprioceptors will respond without me having to consciously think about what the horse is doing.  The horse could leap straight up in the air, and my knees would flex and my feet would stay oriented toward the ground. My upper body might get a little left behind, but I could remedy that with my balance later. My lower body will stay with the horse_."

This is particularly true for me when my horse spins or suddenly shies away from something. This picture comes from about 2 years after I started riding, still using a jump saddle and bitless with Mia:










Mia stopping quickly from a canter a couple of years later:










Bandit at a canter, last November, although a little short for me - 11 holes, IIRC:










For all of the experimenting I've done, I seem to keep ending up at the same place - a long-legged version of what Littauer taught. One of his followers called it a "stirrup-centric" approach versus the "seat-centric" approach taught in dressage and most traditional riding.

In fact, by the end of his life, Littauer had stopped teaching riding without stirrups except as practice for what to do if you lost a stirrup. Most riding instructors teach riding without stirrups as a key to learning to ride well. Littauer kept it for most of his life, but abandoned it after thousands of students, saying it actually taught riding by gripping with the leg and knee instead of letting weight flow into the stirrups.

And to Littauer, security came from letting the weight flow uninterrupted by the knee, flowing all the way into a relaxed heel. Since jumping was important to him, he taught a shorter stirrup so you could easily get well off the back in a jump...but apart from that, I seem to keep coming back to what he taught: Weight flowing balanced past the knee and into the stirrups.

The picture my wife snapped years ago, when Mia was getting very worried about a large moving van ahead of us, captures what still gives me the feeling that whatever happens, and no matter how violently it happens, I will go where my horse goes and sort it out later:










Comparing that to the picture of when Bandit was at the top of his canter stride last fall, about the only change is my free hand: on the horn to ensure my shoulders stay above my horse's spine.

For a stroll down the street, my avatar is a more relaxed position. But it also allows me to transition almost immediately into my "_I'm going with you no matter what you do_" position - just come a little out of the seat, weight into my heels, and (if time permits) one hand on the horn to keep my upper body above the horse's spine.

For arena riding, I'm finding I like a shorter setting of 10-11 holes remaining past the Blevins buckle. It lets me get a little more out of the saddle and frees Bandit's back to move more athletically, IMHO. But he'll probably always reserve the right to shy suddenly - at least if room permits - at something unexpected he sees or smells. In cutting cattle, even, the rider can watch the steer and have an idea of what his horse will do next. I don't have that. Not with Mia and not with Bandit.

It may be a shorter stirrup will allow Bandit to move more athletically and have no impact on my ability to stay on no matter where he goes or how violently he goes there. But for the riding I do, on the horses I seem to end up riding, I keep ending up where I started...

:think:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Okay fine Tiny and gottatrot I'll post it but, someone has to tell me how to do that. It is off the phone and on my computer now what? I'm using windows 10....I don't have a facebook or youtube account

Never mind, I think I figured it out.






Don't laugh too hard at me guys! I am pushing fifty now!

Oh, and lesson #2 is even though I ride horses a lot in shorts, bulls really chafe the inner thighs...note to self, next time wear jeans!


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## Hondo

I haven't been in a bar for years but I'd like to try that!


So question: Is the following good or bad advice?

"To ride any type of spook, you need to sit back, sit deep, and stay relaxed so you can keep your balance and get the horse back under control if he starts to take off. If you get stiff and clamp with your legs and hands, it will only make the situation worse. Think about riding a circle to get your horse back under control. This way you are using more of one rein and not hauling back on both which will only make your horse more anxious."


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I haven't been in a bar for years but I'd like to try that!
> 
> 
> So question: Is the following good or bad advice?
> 
> "To ride any type of spook, you need to sit back, sit deep, and stay relaxed so you can keep your balance and get the horse back under control if he starts to take off. If you get stiff and clamp with your legs and hands, it will only make the situation worse. Think about riding a circle to get your horse back under control. This way you are using more of one rein and not hauling back on both which will only make your horse more anxious."


To say sit back might not be specifically good advice. I'd say stay relaxed enough in your back to follow the movement of the horse a fraction of a second after the fact. There has to be flow. That might be forward, backward, sideways, spin. The horse moves and your hips go with it in whatever direction that might be. IMO if your back is stiff, you are going to wretch something and the lack of flex is going to pull you off the horse. OF course this is spoken as a woman whose weight is centered in her hips!

I sat one really bad bucking fit about 7 years ago..the kind where you can hear the wind of the hooves brushing past your ears, four off the floor constantly for a good thirty seconds. My trainer was there to witness and afterwards in typical cowboy fashion he calmly said "Boy! That horse can buck can't he?" (followed by my giving him the stink eye). He said the thing that saved me from coming off was that I stayed loose in my back and didn't stiffen up my legs. I don't know, I just did what "felt" like I needed to do to stay with the horse at the time (no thought involved). You don't have time to think about the technicalities of it, the physics of it, you just kind of react out of habit, a habit you form every time you ride. Being a western rider, I ride very loose (think sitting trot) and am not prone to panic so I suppose that helps. 

PS Hondo (or any of y'all), if you ever find yourself near Austin Texas, let me know. With all of the dancing DH and I do we know all the fun hang outs!


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## tinyliny

that is so cute!! that video. I can hardly believe you have, what , 4 kids? and are near fifty. amazing. you did splendidly.
my back can NOT deal with that. no way. 

I am intrigued with @gottatrot's explanation on the 2 point being the most secure position. I might say yes, but with a HUGE 'IF" qualifier. it might be most secure IF done correctly. that means, that you are not pinching solely with knee, and you KEEP steady pressure down into the stirrup. 

for me, if I try to two point, within a a short time, my heels come up, my knee starts becoming a pivot point, and I am pitched forward. any sudden slowing of the hrose pitches my upper body forward . it is NOT a secure position for me, not at all. that is because I am unable to keep a solid lower leg, and keep from hunching forward.

the downside of two point is that it's harder to influence the horse . that is why high level dressage is all done sitting. without your seat in contact with the horse's back, it's harder to use that seat to 'suck up' the horse's back into a more collected, slowed movement that matches and is dictated by your firm core. the seat makes the connection. when you are off the back, yiou allow the hrose gtreater freedom to chose how he wants to go.


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## Hondo

Big windy here today. Hondo sort of a little nervous from it but not bad. There are some really large Cottonwood trees near the gate to the field where Hondo and I stay. Cottonwood trees can be very dangerous in a wind storm. Huge limbs can break off without a seconds notice. Horses know this and are uncomfortable around them during windy days.

Just as were returning from our ride and were passing downwind from a large Cottonwood tree about 100 feet before the gate, a huge gust came up and a very large limb made a big waving motion. Hondo bolted forward and left with violence. I remained firmly in the saddle and didn't even lean back much when he bolted. Pretty sure I hauled on the reins.

If I had been two point, I feel certain I'd have went off on the right side. That was about an hour ago and I still can't cross my left leg over my right without using my hands. My guess is I must have reflexed and held on with my left leg and pulled a muscle. It'll be fine by tomorrow or sooner.

It just continues to amaze me how suddenly and with how much violent power a horse can explode.


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## bsms

Depends on the definition of two point. If it means having your crotch 6" above the saddle, then it might have been a problem. If it means having 1/2" clearance, then I think it helps. If it means touching the saddle lightly with your seat, but most of your weight in your thighs and heels, I'm certain it would help, not harm.

I've read my leg should rest on the horse like a draped, wet towel:

"_Your balance keeps you on the horse. That means you are balanced softly on your seat bones and your legs are stretched softly down the horse’s barrel on either side. The image that is most useful is damp towels draped across the horse’s back and down it’s sides._"

The Top 10 Mistakes People Make When Riding Horses - The Thinking Equestrian

"_Or the word “Towel” might remind you to keep your legs softly draped around your horse like a wet towel._"

Program Your Position - Jane Savoie

I saw this online and liked it, with reservations:

"_In riding there is an often-quoted saying in dressage that the rider's legs should hang like wet towels draped over the horses sides. Many riding trainers interpret this analogy as that the rider should completely relax the leg, letting it hang loosely in long stirrups in order to achieve this feeling of the wet towel. 

_ _In fact nothing could be further from the truth. The true wet-towel-draping-round-the-horse's-sides feeling is the result of years of muscular effort in order to form the human leg, by the suppling of the joints, building up of certain muscle groups and stretching out of others, so that it becomes physically capable of wrapping round the horse's ribcage with ease. So the effortlessness is the result of the effort that it took to get there_."

Rider Biomechanics

That is true, I think, in terms of what good riders REALLY mean by a draped leg. But it also is worthless to the beginning rider, or the recreational rider. Riding 3-6 hours/week doesn't give on the ability a highly trained rider has. I became interested in how an occasional rider - like myself - can stay on and stay alive.

A draped, wet towel doesn't offer much hold to keep your hips over the horse's spine. Standing in the stirrups provides the same leg tension that standing does. Not 2x4 rigid. Not braced. But not a draped towel. And when standing, you are used to keeping your legs a set distance apart. That is natural tension, something you don't think about but is always there.

I can't prove it, but I think that natural tension in your legs going down either side of the horse gives you a 'leg up' on the reaction needed to keep your hips centered above the horse's spine when he shies suddenly sideways.

I'm also sure some of it is reflexive action, where you body can tense much faster than thinking - something learned by having been on spooking horses, regardless of one's position.

I guess I like the mental picture of standing in the stirrups, even if my feet are a little ahead. You'll remember these pictures, Hondo, from a video you posted some time back. These are screen captures:










That looks like how I feel when Bandit decides to change direction from North to SouthEast, even while continuing to point due North. Or when Mia would spin, or jump sideways. I'm certain she is not resting most of her weight on her seat, with draped wet towels for legs. She looks grounded in her stirrups.

Compare those pictures to your quote:



Hondo said:


> ...So question: Is the following good or bad advice?
> 
> "To ride any type of spook, you need to sit back, sit deep, and stay relaxed so you can keep your balance and get the horse back under control if he starts to take off. If you get stiff and clamp with your legs and hands, it will only make the situation worse. Think about riding a circle to get your horse back under control. This way you are using more of one rein and not hauling back on both which will only make your horse more anxious."


Gripping and squeezing your horse with your knees isn't good, but I wouldn't recommend "_sit back, sit deep, and stay relaxed so you can keep your balance_". In a horse who is spooking hard enough to justify calling it a spook, staying on is an athletic event of its own - as seen by the rider above. And while hauling back on both reins isn't helpful, BUMPING firmly but not harshly, can be.

And riding circles just isn't possible in most of the places I ride. Good advice in a meadow or mountain pasture, perhaps, but not here:










All IMHO, and based in part on how I learned to ride. I like this from George Morris:










Reminds me a lot of this:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Depends on the definition of two point.


My definition of two point is air between buns and saddle. Zero friction between seat and saddle. I ride with a loose leg. They swing around with the horse as he walks.

If I'd had a stiff leg with zero seat friction "I" feel certain I would have went off the right side if not the back as my cantle is pretty low.

That's my conclusions from my on site evaluation.

Friction of the seat is immediate and is significant. More so even with those of us that use a sheepskin seat pad to help stay in the saddle. I've heard some to even claim that a sheepskin seat pad is an important safety device. But how could it help if off the seat?

Edit: BTW, the quote came from CRK Training. They seem to agree with my ole cowboy friend who has been there done that more than many could even imagine.

He's about my age. I once asked him about foot pressure in the stirrup. He paused and said, I don't remember much about ever having much weight there. At 14 he rode 75 miles all night including swimming a river. Said he didn't know why but I learned it was about the time his mother died. He's the guy that would come in at noon for a fresh horse when rounding up wild horses on a Montanan ranch.

I'm sticking with him and CRK.


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## Hondo

I'll throw in another plug for my ole cowboy friend. His wife is on the Board of Directors for the Texas Cowgirl Hall of Fame. And he is friends with Willie Shoemaker and ran cattle with him for a few years after Willie retired from racing.

They'd probably both roll on the floor at many of our antics.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...But how could it help if off the seat?
> 
> ...I'm sticking with him and CRK.


Since the sheepskin is 1" pile, being a half-inch off the saddle still gives contact, as does barely touching the saddle.

As for weight in the stirrups...personal choice. You are welcome to trust your friend and CRK. I didn't have any friends to consult, and my first book on riding was the US Cavalry manual - written by Harry Chamberlin. I was introduced to VS Littauer's book "Common Sense Horsemanship" very early on, and anyone watching me ride can see its influence on me.

There are great riders who suggest imagining you have a raw egg between your foot and the stirrup. And there are great riders who teach a stirrup-centric approach. That is why I've also concluded: "_I'm also sure some of it is reflexive action, where you body can tense much faster than thinking - something learned by having been on spooking horses, regardless of one's position._"

I don't believe there is one way to ride. Not dressage. Not the Forward Seat. Not western. Not seat-centric nor stirrup-centric. Not with constant contact with the bit, or almost none. VS Littauer, as much as I like him, oversold the Forward Seat as surely as some now oversell dressage training. I've tried the old cowboy position, and it works well...although it is anathema to many modern riders. I believe there are lots of effective ways of riding. 

But I can say this without denigrating any other approach:

The position I used below meant I was going anywhere Mia went, no matter what she did. Not THE way, but AN effective way of staying on a very reactive horse.








​


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> You are welcome to trust your friend and CRK.


Thank you.


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## horseluvr2524

Personally, I practice an even use of all of it. Relaxed, but firm when necessary. I try to distribute my weight evenly through my muscles and into my stirrups, if that makes sense. I use most of my leg muscles and my stirrups when riding at trot or faster. I don't grip with my knees, I don't jam my heels down. I just allow my lower body to slightly tense/stiffen, base myself in my stirrup, and follow the horse. It feels different than the chair seat/old cowboy style or the 'all leg nearly no stirrup' approach. It's very evenly balanced. This is the best way I've found of staying with the horse in gait. It may not be the best position for sudden emergency situations, but I rely more on my reflexes than any position in those situations. I suppose I ride with a philosophy of allowing my body to naturally adjust to the horse. That is generally what I practice in other areas of riding and horsemanship too-even use of all, overuse of none.


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## Hondo

The controversy of sitting or standing is a huge and continuing controversy in off road motorcycles. The prevailing wisdom has been, and still is, to stand most of the time.

However, **** Burleson won 9 consecutive national titles in Enduro's which no one has ever beat. He taught clinics on how to go fast in the rough sitting down.

Scott Summers is one of the winningest off road champions ever in GNCC championships. Wisdom also is to ride a two stroke motorcycle. He rode a four stroke sitting down and absolutely smoked everybody.

Oh, and ride on the arch of the foot. Never ever on the ball of your foot. Hurricane Hanna learned by himself when he was young and didn't know better. As a result he became one of the winningest motocross champions in history.

So there you go. If one tries to stuff too many rules, facts, logic, etc. into their brain while riding they may never learn. Yes, reading , studying can help, particularly watching others as that goes straight to the muscle.

But I really do think that too much over analyzing can be counterproductive. I was elated this afternoon that I was still sitting upright in the middle of the saddle at the end. What ever I did, I'm hoping, and actually trusting, that I'll do the same next time. There was no time to figure it out.


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

I'm curious if one of your horses has ever tried to eat a cactus?

My Shan did in the first year I had her. In her defense, she was from a part of AZ where there was no such thing as cacti. Out on a trail ride, she picked the worst cactus possible to try to eat: a cholla! Boy was that a battle getting that sucker off her lip. She never did it again though :wink:


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## Hondo

Cholla's are not real appetizing. I don't know about his past but he's not eaten any since I've known him. He is very aware of anything with a sticker on it. And that includes around his feet. 

I've got him so spoiled on cat's claw that he'll stop, look back, and say, "You don't expect me to walk through that do you? You are going to dismount and do a little trail maintenance, right?"

Horses are stupid. Yeah, right.


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## bsms

My horses haven't eaten cactus. Bandit and Cowboy will eat dried tumbleweeds. Watching them makes my butt pucker, thinking about what happens...well...later. 
_
"But I really do think that too much over analyzing can be counterproductive_." - @Hondo

I truly agree, but it doesn't stop me from doing it. In my defense, having over analyzed a lot of stuff, I'm concluding a lot of it doesn't really matter much. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but my horse seems happy with me, and I don't come off often, and if I do, it will be ME that gets hurt.

But if something HAS worked well for me, it seems OK to say it has. Others will have to decide what they want to do.


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## Hondo

There is a book titled "Inner Skiing" that I read a few decades ago. I may look it up and read it again. I think it'd be a good read for anybody in regards to a physically demanding sports activity that required a certain amount of coordination.

The one thing that has stuck in my mind from the boot is the quip from the author when he said something like, " It seems provident that children learn to walk before they learn to talk, as otherwise they might never learn to walk". In context he was suggesting they'd get so much contradictory information on how to do it that they'd never learn.

He was a ski instructor and believed through his experience that kids learned better and faster by just watching.

Try to explain to someone how to run backwards without looking where you are going and reach up and pluck a baseball out of the air. The analytical left hemi just can't do that ever. Right hemi or body memory has to do that. Over activity of the left shuts down operations of the right.

Edit: Still hard to cross my left leg. Plus a long stretch of my left latimus is really sore this morning. My muscle tone seems to me slowly creeping away.


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## bsms

About 5 months after we got Bandit, a friend who is a life-long rider in his twenties came out. He brought along a friend who had literally never touched a horse before. My youngest went with them, and the three of them rode for three hours.

Bandit acted up some, putting his rider on the wrong side of the saddle horn once and taking off sideways several times. Trooper took care of the new rider, and my daughter rode little Cowboy. By the time they got back, they had done walk, trot & canter. On pavement, on dirt roads, on narrow trails and off trails. Up hills and down them. 

The new guy didn't fit the saddle well. He was 6'6" tall, about 215 lbs in a 16" saddle. But as they returned, Trooper was on a slack rein, walking relaxed down the paved road. Trooper was probably tired, but he was moving easily and showed no signs of soreness on his back afterward. The guy's position was cramped, but pretty good given the mismatch between his size and the saddle. He only was in the area a short time, so that was his only ride.

Seems like that would be the ideal way to learn. He wasn't stressing, or paying attention to details. He was out having fun with some friends. He got a few tips along the way, and watched an experienced rider have difficulty with Bandit - and they discussed ways of handling problems. But mostly, they were having fun together.

Seems to me that would get past the over-analytical approach. 

However, once one starts to get past the very basics, being overanalytic helps - or at least, being analytical does. There is a huge amount of bad information and poor teaching that takes place because someone who is physically good at riding doesn't know how to explain what they do, or doesn't realize that what they do is rooted in being an excellent athlete and not what actually is effective.

Thus one ends up with instructors getting paid to tell people to keep their horse trapped between the driving aids and the restraining aids, so the horse will round up between them. They never notice that horses are incapable of rounding up, and that trapping a horse between the driving aids and restraining aids typically results in a frustrated horse.

There is an enormous amount of bad poop taught about bits. Take the dislike for Tom Thumb curb bits. Mark Rashid wrote a very popular article about the evils of a Tom Thumb bit, but what he says happens simply does not. However, the respected Jr Cowhorse Dogbone bit actually does everything Rashid claims the Tom Thumb does - and people never notice. 

I've had instructors and people on HF tell me it is crucial to good riding to have my toes pointed straight forward. With most people, trying that will create tension in the leg and be harmful to staying on and following the horse's movement.

Once one gets past the very most basic riding skills, improvement will come faster if you adopt good habits. But what habits are good? Far too many paid instructors don't know. They cannot, because they teach opposite things.

Does this painting from the early 1800s show good riding?








​ 
I say yes, and can explain WHY that is an effective and appropriate way to ride (particularly as a storm is moving in). But many people say that riding is horrible - a "chair seat", with "inverted horses".

OTOH, this picture of a very experienced Australian rider from the 1800s is horrible:








​ 
Don't care how many years that guy rode, or in what country. That approach to riding does the horse no favors.








​


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## Hondo

When I make my comments about analyzing, they are coming from someone who is very analytical himself.

As a matter of fact, I did a little analyzing about my "event" yesterday.

The rest of the story: In addition to the wind which had me a little concerned, there was a large church group assembling in the field for a week end camp out. The horses had become familiar with those that had arrived early, but as we were approaching the gate there was another camper coming in from the other side with someone jogging along side. That, plus the wind, and the general goings on had me thinking about dismounting a hundred yards or so from the gate, which I should have done.

I was clearly concerned, and if one horse raises their head in a herd, the entire herd raises their heads. I have no doubt that Hondo was aware of my concern and became concerned himself. The gust of wind and the tree branch waving was the last straw.

So in analytical reflection, I do contribute a major cause of the spook to myself.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> OTOH, this picture of a very experienced Australian rider from the 1800s is horrible:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Don't care how many years that guy rode, or in what country. That approach to riding does the horse no favors.


I am trying to follow along but I am going to have to jump in this discussion because I have a question.

If that position is so horrible, why do you advocate this same rider in this same position? The Western rider's leg is a bit straighter, but mildly and not enough to make a significant difference.


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## tinyliny

I'm having trouble seeing the difference between those two photo, too.

in general, judging anyone's riding based on a still photo is not optimal . you only capture a moment in time.

that Cowboy could have been just stretching out. from time to time, when I've been in the saddle for an hour, I'll push my legs way forward like that, and push back against the cantle of the saddle, just to stretch. but I never ride that way.


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## farmpony84

In that first photo from the 1800s the horse was some type of gaited horse. The comparison between that second photo and the cowboy is really hard to find differences in.


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## horseluvr2524

Traditional Australian riding is very different, in that the saddles are literally made to push the rider's legs forward into a chair seat. I knew a trainer who had spent some time in Australia working a cattle ranch. She told me that the horses literally take cues from the shoulder, instead of the barrel like we do. Those horses were like greased lightning when on the move, so that position in the saddle really helped to keep the rider stable.

I used to have an aussie saddle. I have a hard time deciding if the aussie or my current dressage was the more comfortable saddle. I believe the aussie became uncomfortable over time but do not remember why. I did ride with my legs forward in that saddle (very hard to ride shoulder-hip-heel in an aussie), but it was more of a mild chair seat.


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## horseluvr2524

As for the difference between those two pictures, I think it is very minimal. The Australian rider has a more exaggerated bend in the knee, and appears from that to be sitting more on his seat bones/the cantle. I have been in similar positions before and know that it causes an uncomfortable amount of pressure on the rider's lower back. I do not know what it does to the horse.
The cowboy has a longer leg, and does not appear to be as collapsed (I think that's the word I'm looking for) in the lower back. However, I think he is riding in a very similar, if not identical, way to the australian rider, but much of it is hidden by his chaps and the style of the saddle.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> ...If that position is so horrible, why do you advocate this same rider in this same position? The Western rider's leg is a bit straighter, but mildly and not enough to make a significant difference.





tinyliny said:


> I'm having trouble seeing the difference between those two photo, too...





farmpony84 said:


> In that first photo from the 1800s the horse was some type of gaited horse. The comparison between that second photo and the cowboy is really hard to find differences in.


I see some very important differences.



















First, look at where the knee is located. Look at the angle the thigh forms compared to horizontal. In the top, the thigh drops about 30 degrees, versus around 50-60 degrees of drop in the second. 

In the top, the leg is also folded, while in the bottom, it is almost straight.

Having tried both of those positions (first using an English saddle, second using a western saddle), I concluded that a "chair seat" depends not on where the ankle is located, but the thigh. In a chair, our thighs are nearly level, leaving our weight to be carried by the back of the thigh and butt.

If we straddle a seat, our knees are much lower and our weight is carried by the inside of the thigh with very little on the butt.

Barry Godden wrote about the old cowboy approach to riding, as taught to him by a guy who learned riding in the 1930s:

"Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.

The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot. 
The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times. 
The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it. 
The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the 
forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.

The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.

We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.

When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.

If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.

The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.
My horse would accept being ridden English or Western." 

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/page4/#post942370

A couple of key elements are these. I'm bolding the first because it is part of why I find it awkward to shorten my stirrups:

"*The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.*" 

"The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant [sic] weight carried on the stirrups at all times." 

"If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western."

None of that applies to the Australian rider. At least, not when I tried it in my Bates Caprilli CC saddle. His position left my weight carried in my butt, my thighs nearly parallel with my horse's back, and very little WEIGHT in the stirrups. One has to push them some to get them there, but they don't carry one's WEIGHT.

In the second, I start with following part of Harry Chamberlin's advice for sitting into a saddle - to start with standing in the stirrups, butt out of the saddle, and let one's weight drive the heels down - pulling the thighs down with them. IIRC, in another place, he talks about wedging the thighs DOWN into the saddle.

Because a horse is 3 dimensional, not the 2 dimensions we see in photographs, and because a western saddle has a much wider twist to it than my English or Aussie saddles had, forcing the heels, knees and thigh DOWN places the weight on the thighs. That is why I can carry my thick Buck Ranger knife in my pocket and not feel it. With weight carried in the stirrups (not bracing against them), and my thighs down around the wide twist of the saddle, there is very little weight to be carried by my butt.

And with my thighs like that, my horse can jump sideways or spin, and my thighs are already locked on around her (now him). I don't have to grip or grab because my weight is carried below the level of the horse's back, and I'm already somewhat wedged on.

Climbing up out of a wash, I can do that and feel my thighs bearing almost all of my weight.

Need to write more, but I've got an appointment to go to. I want to thank y'all for asking a very valid and sensible question and giving me a chance to explain...more to follow. Before leaving, I'll add that shortening my stirrups from 9 holes remaining to 11 holes remaining is enough to change the feel entirely. It is only an inch or so in total shortening, but the outcome is different. Without the long stirrups, and without weight in the stirrups, the result is to carry weigh in my butt.

BTW: My thigh angle in my western saddle, although I'm not putting weight in my stirrups here:










And Australian:


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## updownrider

bsms said:


>


As I said in my post, the difference is minimal, not enough to make a difference. I flipped the picture to compare better. I will say it again, there is no glaring difference. 

Additionally, did you read Farm's post? The horse is gaited. That is how gaited horses are ridden. The rider is not horrible. Different. Embrace diversity.

You have not answered why you thought the rider on the gaited horse is "horrible".


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## updownrider

> Don't care how many years that guy rode, or in what country.


It seems you know where this picture was taken and who he is came from by your comment. You also know what year. As a courtesy, could you provide his name and what country. Thanks.


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## gottatrot

First, loved that video, @Reiningcatsanddogs. Great poise and balance! Amazing riding, I'm sure you can stay on about anything. 

Went AWOL for a little while. I was thinking about how explaining the mechanics and how something feels can be very different from how it looks. I'm sure a diver has very technical explanations for the spring and twists and momentum that happens during a dive, but if we tried to do those things it would be very exaggerated.
So I tried to make a video of two pointing to illustrate better.

When I was trying to learn how to two point during riding lessons, I remember working on a position similar to this:








It felt like getting up off the saddle was a difficult thing to do that required a lot of balance and muscle strength.
I remember driving home from some lessons with my legs shaking for at least ten minutes before they'd quit. They hurt more than after I've run a half marathon or 10K races. 

But two pointing does not mean you have to abandon assistance from your weight against the saddle, not until you're all the way up in extreme jockey position. Even with my stirrups very short, most of my leg is still down against the saddle. I don't ride a short two point most of the time, I ride a very long one. That's because as you get higher, the pressure on your joints and feet increases because less can be taken up by your leg against the horse. On a jumping course, you're only going to be riding for about fifteen minutes so it's no big deal. If you're riding for a couple of hours, it's not efficient. 









I made a video of me riding yesterday. For most of the video I am two pointing, even though you might think I am in the saddle. It's harder to see because of the black saddle and dark jeans. But my seat rarely touches the saddle. Now my thighs do touch the saddle, but I don't weight down into it with my seat for almost the entire time I am trotting, except for when I put in a posting step here or there. But my seat bones always have air underneath them.

By the way, I am always open to any critique, and this is not to say I think I am such a wonderful rider. But I have learned a lot from watching other riders, and I hope you can see how secure this position is so I wanted to give a visual. Some will always think a horse moving in their natural position is not moving well. Yet if you really see how the horse is moving, you will notice she can use her body very well without needing to put her head or neck in a certain position. Halla is not in shape, and I am purposefully not taxing her. This ride she basically did what she wanted. 
She does make me laugh sometimes because on a loose rein, she'll look in other directions besides where we are going. But her body follows where I want to go. 

I am a seat centric and stirrup centric rider, in a way. My position is stirrup centric, and independent, meaning nothing the horse does is going to make me take more contact with the mouth than I mean to, except on a rare occasion. But also seat centric, perhaps you can see in this video that I have little or no rein contact throughout. Our direction is controlled entirely by my seat. 

My horses really don't know how to neck rein, but on a loose rein I can still direct them with my seat. My lower legs do not cue the horse throughout this entire ride. I don't squeeze to go, or push to turn. All I'm doing is degrees of turn with my seat, meaning the parts of the leg that are on the horse, and the angle of my body that is not on the horse. 

For most of this video I am not posting or sitting the trot. If I were posting, you would see my head going up and down rhythmically. I should have taped this as a contrast, but I didn't think of it. If I am sitting, you will see a lot more motion through my torso, because more is transmitted up through the seat. 

That's another thing about two point I remember when I was learning: I felt like it should be a movement that did not go up and down. But that hinders your learning: it does go up and down, because you are still absorbing the shock of the horse's landing impact regardless of whether you post or not. You don't go as high as posting, because your legs absorb more of the force instead of letting it push you up.


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## tinyliny

I tried to two point today. cant. not for the life of me. I have to hang onto the mane in order to stay up. 

is it necessary to pooch one's butt out to do it?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I tried to two point today. cant. not for the life of me. I have to hang onto the mane in order to stay up.
> 
> is it necessary to pooch one's butt out to do it?


No, and I think that's not good body mechanics. Although it looks like there is a curve in my lower back, I don't use any more curve than I do when I'm standing. I just have "well developed" gluteals from running for many years, and genetics mean I store my fat in that area. So it might look like I have a curve, but my spine is the same as when I'm standing up.

Today I was thinking how to describe it. Say you were standing over a very short saddle stand that you could raise yourself off of and still stand on the ground. Any of us could stay standing above it against gravity. The pull of the horse's movement is like someone was trying to push you down onto the saddle rack. The bigger the trot, the stronger the push. If there was molasses on the saddle rack in a stripe down the top, you wouldn't want to sit on it. So you'd resist enough to keep your pants clean.


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## horseluvr2524

Hmm... I never really thought of that position as two-point. I have done this before, do it often at canter, as I find it easier than absorbing the motion through my back as often happens when I fully sit the canter. Most of the time I post at trot as I find it less tiring, at least the way the two horses I ride move, than it would be to do gottatrot's style of two-point.

For the 'jumping position', which is what I have always considered two-point, yes you do have to stick your butt out a bit. It is necessary to keep your weight centered over the saddle rather than on the front of the horse, as when you lean forward, without having a counter-weight toward the rear, you are not stable anymore as you are not anchored in your stirrups/leg.
I have been teaching my mother to stick out her rear just a bit, as without that like I explained she was falling too far forward. I thought her position looked very nice and balanced. It is something that we only do for short periods at full gallop, and I agree it is not something you want to do long term.

It does require quite a bit of fitness and strength in your core and legs, IMO. Gottatrot's two-point is a far more stable position than the jump seat. In my experience, the closer you are to the horse, the more likely you are to follow any sudden unexpected movement rather than fall off.


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## gottatrot

I guess I feel where your butt goes should just change in relation to your legs. The bend should be a lean of your whole torso rather than an arching of the lower back. I see lots of people posting or two pointing with a pronounced arch in the lower back.
















But your back should only have a natural bend. If your butt sticks out, it's because your hip angle has changed. OR you have a big butt.









How high your two point needs to be depends on what you are doing. If you're going over rough ground or jumping, you need to be higher in order to not have the horse's back come up and hit you with the saddle. But even galloping you can be pretty low and avoid the horse's back. Mechanically, I believe a two point is riding so your seat is not on the saddle and the horse's back and your seat do not contact each other through any of the phases of the horse's stride.


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## horseluvr2524

I feel like the third picture is something closer to what we do. I don't think that there is any way I could have made her understand that she needed to keep her weight over the saddle and her leg, other than to tell her to stick her butt out a bit. If I just told her 'center yourself over the saddle', she would have either said 'I thought I am centered', or said ' ok, but how?'.

One thing to note of interest that I have noticed before, is that my back does have a natural curve to it (*cough* and despite being fit, my butt isn't tiny *cough*). So if my back has a curve to it during two-point, that's actually not different than me just standing. I do tend to get back aches over various things. I wonder if there is something not quite right with my back, though I've never heard any doctors mention anything.

I do a lot of my riding just by what feels right and what the horse goes well under. 
I think also, like you said, that riding positions can vary by terrain. I know that I felt and rode differently on the beach than I do over the desert. The horse's strides on the beach are bigger, deeper, stronger, because of the effort of moving through sand. Whereas in the desert, there must be more control and the ability to stop quickly (but not big stops like western performance horses) to navigate unexpected rocks/cacti/etc. safely.
I don't know. I just know that I did a lower two-point on the beach, and I'm more up and out of the saddle in the desert. *shrug*


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## Zexious

Anatomy has a large role in how different riders look in the two point position.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> As I said in my post, the difference is minimal, not enough to make a difference. I flipped the picture to compare better. I will say it again, there is no glaring difference.
> 
> Additionally, did you read Farm's post? The horse is gaited. That is how gaited horses are ridden. The rider is not horrible. Different. Embrace diversity.
> 
> You have not answered why you thought the rider on the gaited horse is "horrible".
> 
> It seems you know where this picture was taken and who he is came from by your comment. You also know what year. As a courtesy, could you provide his name and what country. Thanks.


I guess I disagree about what constitutes "minimal". Changing my stirrups 2 holes changes the length of the stirrup by about 1". Is that a minimal change? Sure doesn't feel minimal, and it sure affects my riding! Changing from a thigh slanted about 30 degrees down to about 45-50 degrees down strikes me as a large change. Changing from having the knee 1/4 of the way down the barrel to 1/2 of the way down would give a very different feel to me as well.

Some other differences include sitting at the rear edge of the saddle tree in the Australian example, and well in front of the rear of the saddle tree in the western example. I also find, when I try it, a difference in feel between using a saddle with a 1" stirrup strap and a 3" stirrup strap.

Gaited? Maybe. The picture came from an old book on riding (written 1900-ish, IIRC). The author used it as a typical example of how a rider sits in an Australian saddle - circa 1850-1870ish. Certainly pre-1900. He was comparing the English and Australian styles of riding and the saddles used. The man's name was not given, and the author didn't mention anything about the horse being gaited. It was one of the many books on riding I threw away a couple of months ago. It is still available online, if I can remember the book's name.

I did try that position, both in my Australian saddle and English, but found it too uncomfortable and too unstable. Mia obviously objected to it, either saddle.

But if anyone WANTS to ride like that, it is between them and their horses. And if anyone can explain why the mid-1800s style of Australian riding is good and useful, I'll be glad to listen and apologize. Personally, doing it the way I did in the saddles I had, I found it unproductive.

FWIW, I've used the western style as one of many examples of why the shoulder / hip / heel in a vertical line thing is NOT a universal rule - NOT as something everyone should do, or do all the time. I tend to use that style at the start of a ride, when my body is stiff and my horse a bit spooky. I also use it to encourage my horse to keep forward when worried while keeping slack the reins. It is like having a fence on either side of the horse. They seem to understand that I want them to face forward. But if I push too hard and they spin, then I'm better off balance-wise if my heel is under my center of gravity. It is also good if your horse might suddenly throw things into reverse.

I also like it when crossing uneven terrain when my attention is not on my horse, such as when I'm focused sideways or even back, looking for a path down into or out of a wash. At those times, I'm trusting my horse to continue across uneven ground (rocks, gullies, cactus) while I'm paying no attention to him. It seems to give him a very predictable weight on his back. 

And cowboys working a herd would need to focus on the HERD, not their riding. When I had a chance last year to help out moving a few thousand sheep up into the mountains, one of the big differences between me and the professional herders was that I rode along with the sheep, but the pros were watching the sheep - looking for stragglers, for sheep breaking away, for sheep getting too tired, for lambs that were struggling, etc. They were observing how thirsty the sheep were getting, picking out individuals to set aside for the trailer following us, etc. I was going along for the ride, but they were working the sheep. Big difference. 

The guy in yellow is a pro. the girl further back is my daughter. One is working and the other is there for fun. I was on foot, trying to keep the sheep out of peoples' yards when I paused to take the picture.


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## Hondo

Not sure if this is a switch of topics. It certainly does have (i think) a lot to do with body positioning, apparently. Anyhow, sure to be a controversial quote: "The original relevance of dressage was to train a horse to be calm enough, and trusting enough of his rider, to be able to be ridden into battle. It's hard to imagine the dressage stars of today being capable of that... "

What does 'on the bit' really mean?


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## gottatrot

I doubt anyone ever bred battle horses to be hot and waste energy. Reading about Traveler, Robert E Lee's horse, it sounds like he was kind of an anomaly being rough gaited and somewhat hot-blooded. 

Just have to say...
In that link, the picture!!!









To me it says, "Let's kill our bodies trying to make the horse look correct." Why?!?!
Doesn't sustainable riding involve the rider at all?

That woman is using her back so improperly, I guess the only way she could get back on a horse tomorrow is if she is only twenty-ish, maybe not even then.

Yes, let's put our weight of our head and upper body which we always discuss as being something that can influence the large body of the horse, behind our core/center of gravity. I just look at her and see ouch, ouch, ouch. 

At this rate, how will she bring in the hay bales and bags of grain in ten years so she can keep taking care of her horses?


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> At this rate, how will she bring in the hay bales and bags of grain in ten years so she can keep taking care of her horses?


, Am I correct in assuming that you would not necessarily recommend purchasing their eBook?


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ... a controversial quote: "The original relevance of dressage was to train a horse to be calm enough, and trusting enough of his rider, to be able to be ridden into battle. It's hard to imagine the dressage stars of today being capable of that... "


Actually, that is an often repeated historical fallacy. In The Development of Modern Riding, VS Littauer discusses the real roots of dressage, including extensive quotes from the original "masters" of dressage. He also reviews how it was only tried a few time by cavalries, and how it invariably failed in combat. He was a bit biased, perhaps, since he was trained heavily in dressage in the Russian Cavalry, as taught by James Fillis, and he saw its failure in World War One.

The actual historical roots of dressage was as a way for nobility to show off and impress the masses. It was rooted, in that sense, in Xenophon:

"...Under the pleasurable sense of freedom, thanks to the relaxation of the bit, with stately bearing and legs pliantly moving he dashes forward in his pride, in every respect imitating the airs and graces of a horse approaching other horses. *Listen to the epithets with which spectators will describe the type of horse: the noble animal! and what willingness to work, what paces, what a spirit and what mettle; how proudly he bears himself —a joy at once, and yet a terror to behold.*"

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1176/1176-h/1176-h.htm

What is now known as dressage is also rooted in large parties thrown by the nobility, where everyone dressed up in costumes and showed off their riding skill to each other. Thus early texts by the masters would tell the rider to have his footmen whip at the horse's legs, for example. Or my personal favorite: to have a footman tie an "angry cat" to the end of a long pole, and place it on the horse's rump when the horse didn't want to go forward. Nothing quite like having a footman, with an angry cat tied to the end of a pole, for encouraging impulsion!

From the link:

"The yellow lines indicate the angle of the upper foreleg and the lower when this diagonal pair is raised and swinging through. In an engaged ('on the bit') trot these angles are identical i.e. the limbs are parallel, in a reflection of the connection through the horse's whole body created by engagement." 








​ 
Hmmm...Bandit bitless, trotting:








​ 
I personally think it is obvious which horse is moving in accordance with sound mechanics, although I'm sure many would draw another conclusion.

The link also links to Deb Bennett's site, where it shows this:








​ 
"_Dr. Deb and her old friend Painty Horse in a cadenced collected trot. _
_Note how straight Painty is moving, 
and the look of focus and concentration on his face, _
_the relaxed expression of the ears, mouth, and nostrils, _
_along with the power and elasticity of the movement. _
_How do horses do this?_"​ 
http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base_intro/knowledge_base_intro_choicepage.html

Indeed. How do horses do that! < / sarcasm >

But from the link Hondo provided:

"The amazing thing is that when you put a horse on the bit correctly, not only are you connecting to that horse in a profound way, but you are asking him to give himself over to you in a whole-body way...The important point here is that in correct riding, you earn the this trust and voluntary submission of the horse in a _physical or gymnastic_ way, by showing the horse that he is safe in balanced motion. *We don't believe that you can ever achieve this level of mental calmness through training the horse by conditioning his mind*, as is the methodology of many natural horsemanship methods...

...*it is therefore only by giving them back the physical security of the balanced connection of engagement on the bit, that we can give the horse back his natural lack of tension*..."

What does 'on the bit' really mean?

I'm not quite speechless, but certainly appalled! Two fundamentally different and irreconcilable approaches to teaching a horse: Using what they call "balanced motion" - with the horse working harder to move less distance - to physically impose calmness and submission, versus teaching the horse that the rider (and humans in general) have good judgment that can be trusted. 

Impose the human's idea of balanced motion, or let the horse figure out how to balance himself with his rider. Create trust by insisting the horse focus on the ground directly in front of his feet, moving slowly, or accept trust from a horse who can look at what troubles him and then accept his rider's evaluationr.

Train the body to control the mind, or train the mind and let the horse - who alone feels what is happening in his body - accomplish the task.

When it is time to cover some rough ground, every rider in the world knows to trust his horse - that he, the rider, CANNOT keep horse and rider safe and balanced crossing rough ground! But put a horse and rider on level, sandy ground, and suddenly the rider knows more than the horse!

How indeed...:icon_rolleyes:


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## Hondo

@bsmsIn my reading of Xenophon, and I've read him a few times, my impression was that he determined to train the horse in such a way to preserve his natural abilities BECAUSE it would appear intimidating to an enemy to see horse with riders approaching in this fashion. It's there for the reading. We all put emphasis on the different phrases.

ALL

I just posted over on the horse health. If anyone has any experience in this I am more than worried and would like to know what it could be. If I don't hear something soon I'll be calling the vet.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/scary-swellings-hondos-abdomen-756425/#post9929345


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## tinyliny

those two trot pictures , posted as a comparison, are taken at slightly different moments of the trot, at different speeds and different breeds . not a good apples to apples. both show the horse in good rythmic motion, though.

the rider is vertical , at 90 degree angle to the back of her horse. she appears to be leaning back becuase of the uphill angle of the horse. however, the hollow back she seems to have would certainly hurt me. on the other hand, if you look at photos of the Spanish Riding School way of riding, you will see almost identical position. you'll see it in old time etchings and things from 1600's and 1700's, too. One would, most certainly, not keep this position for any length of time.

it's , as someone said, a sort of showing off. I mean , think of it in terms of gymnasitics; we don't go around doing cartwheels or balance beams or whatever all day long. but, learning to do such things strengthens the performer. they WILL become better to walk in a balanced, natural manner by vertue of all their training in these extreme arts.

this is more what dressage is about. why do we do it? because we can, and becuase it IS difficult, and becuase done correctly, it promotes a more evenly strengthened horse because it MAKES them work harder to carry the human. 

sure, they can find their own balance , carrying a human or not, but that balance usually involves more falling forward energy, and in the case of sudden turns, more force exerted on their joints because of changing the direction suddenly without being more balanced over the center of the body, closer to the back. if you can build up the hroses natural ability to rock back onto his haunches, the more you do it , the easier it is. and doing it wiaht a rider aboard is a lot harder than doing it without.

I disagree that accessing the mind of the hose is less important than accessing his feet, but they are inextricably linked. it is our power over the horse's feet that is ultimately why we rejoice in this animal.


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## evilamc

bsms said:


> From the link:
> 
> "The yellow lines indicate the angle of the upper foreleg and the lower when this diagonal pair is raised and swinging through. In an engaged ('on the bit') trot these angles are identical i.e. the limbs are parallel, in a reflection of the connection through the horse's whole body created by engagement."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Hmmm...Bandit bitless, trotting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I personally think it is obvious which horse is moving in accordance with sound mechanics, although I'm sure many would draw another conclusion.


I have to disagree. Bandit just looks inverted. Not moving how I'd like my horse to.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Actually, that is an often repeated historical fallacy.



I guess it's back to who one chooses to believe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_dressage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us_-_Readers


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## tinyliny

does it really matter? opera , ballet, tai chi, . . established 'arts' whose histories are long. what or why they started is sort of irrelevant now. if it weren't flexible, I mean, if the artform itself doesn't have enough flexibility to stay relevant in a new age, then , it will die. same with dressage.

it's appealing in and of itself, and the connection one creates with the horse.


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## updownrider

evilamc said:


> I have to disagree. Bandit just looks inverted. Not moving how I'd like my horse to.


Agree, and the two pictures should not be compared, anyway. Bandit is bitless, meaning there is no contact with his mouth (by his rider's choice). The chestnut horse is moving in a frame for "on the bit" demonstration purposes. Bandit is not in a frame (again his rider's choice) and moving with his head up.


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> I tried to two point today. cant. not for the life of me. I have to hang onto the mane in order to stay up.
> 
> is it necessary to pooch one's butt out to do it?


I think where your butt goes and how it looks depends on each individual's anatomy but it also depends on what the rider and horse are doing at that moment.

I looked through various photos of me to take basic anatomy out of it (while my butt may look slightly different depending on my shirt length, its the same size all the time :wink.

This is what I would call two point, as my shoulder is in front of my leg. Where your butt is in relation to the other parts is a direct result of how open or closed your hip angle is, as that is basically the counterbalance to your upper body position. Here my hip angle is relatively open (shoulder just barely ahead of knee), so my butt isn't all that poked out.










Here my hip angle is a lot more closed (shoulder way ahead of knee), so my butt is poked out to balance.











When you were trying to two point and it didn't work, what was happening? Were you tipping forward? Falling back? 


In reading the discussion about position, I think several people are using the term "two point" to describe what I was taught as "half seat." It has a lot more open hip angle and the shoulders are generally at or just behind of the knee. I find I use the half seat a lot out on trail:




























In half seat, my weight is carried down my leg, with my butt floating just above the saddle. I ride with very long stirrups, so I rarely have my heel down, but if you were to erase the horse from under me and I landed on the ground, I would stand a decent chance of staying upright.

I find this position quite secure, personally. I certainly have plenty of experience riding out spooks. Here a friend caught Phin in the second moment of one, where you can see I have had just enough time to raise my heel to give him a distinct don't-you-dare-spin reminder while laying the rein against the left side of his neck for the same reason..











My coat blocks the view of my butt, but it is still floating above the saddle. A picture taken the next moment would likely have found me back in full seat to help encourage him forward. 


I have found the angle the thigh lays comfortably in the saddle, which is directly related to stirrup bar placement, has the most effect on my chair seat. Look at my position in the Rubicon, which has a fairly forward stirrup bar:











Versus my position in the Stonewall, which has the stirrup bar farther back:











Versus the Torsion, which also has the bar farther back:











Those are actually the exact same leathers and stirrups on all 3 saddles, so the only difference is the bar position! But boy what it does (or doesn't do) for my eq..


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## tinyliny

@phantomhorse13 Great Post!!!

I fall back, when trying to 2 point. but, I was doing it at a walk, so maybe I could try trot. I can sort of half seat the trot, adn do that when we are going over puddles or such, where the bump might throw me onto th other diagonal, so might as well just float until he is flat and I can find the diagonal I prefer.

I ride in a Schleese dressage saddle. it's a good saddle, tho not comfy . very narrow twist, offers great feel of the horse's motion, very neutral leg position.


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## tinyliny

also, without derailing this thread, may I ask a short question, @phantomhorse13? which endurance saddle DO you prefer?


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> does it really matter? opera , ballet, tai chi, . . established 'arts' whose histories are long. what or why they started is sort of irrelevant now. if it weren't flexible, I mean, if the artform itself doesn't have enough flexibility to stay relevant in a new age, then , it will die. same with dressage.
> 
> it's appealing in and of itself, and the connection one creates with the horse.



Well, to me, yes it does matter. Particularly when I read Xenophon's description of training the horse compared to what I read and see now.

Xenophon as I understand from quotes from his other writings, which were many, that the ideal development or training of the horse was to maintain as much of his natural bearing and carriage as possible which allowed his best movements.

In becoming an art form in which I believe, IMO, the horse has been lost to the artist easel and is no longer the center piece of importance.

I'm sure to be sticking my neck out here as there are sure to be many dedicated to modern dressage, but that's how I feel.

To me, training a horse to do tricks is not the dressage I have read about.


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> I fall back, when trying to 2 point. but, I was doing it at a walk, so maybe I could try trot. I can sort of half seat the trot, adn do that when we are going over puddles or such, where the bump might throw me onto th other diagonal, so might as well just float until he is flat and I can find the diagonal I prefer.


If you are falling back, then likely you are shifting your weight "too much" into your heels.. next time pay attention if your foot is shifting forward (which may or may not relate to pinching with your knee). It could also be you just need to develop the muscles to hold you in position, so holding mane may be the best thing to start with. Do you have eyes on the ground when you ride? They may be able to offer some insight into why you are losing your balance. You may want to start with doing half seat for longer periods to build muscle and then start to play with your hip angle.




tinyliny said:


> also, without derailing this thread, may I ask a short question, @*phantomhorse13* ? which endurance saddle DO you prefer?


Of the 3 pictured, I actually prefer the Stonewall, as it puts me in the best position which I have to think translates to my screwing up the horse the least. The Rubicons we have for the older horses have 2 stirrup bars, one right behind the other, so you can pick which you prefer to hang the leathers on. I didn't realize when I bought Phin's online that the older models only had a single bar, in the more forward position. But as a fun aside, Phin is super bouncy, so I find the chair seat actually helps me to maintain my position compared to the Torsion (where I tended to pinch with my knees and tip forward).

Is that evidence that sometimes form doesn't follow function? That maybe a chair seat isn't the horror some claim? Could be. But most people would not look to endurance riders if they wanted an example of good eq. :wink:


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> To me, training a horse to do tricks is not the dressage I have read about.


I think this is no different than the way other disciplines have changed over time.. and if that is 'good' change or 'bad' change depends on the person you ask.

A dressage test ridden 50 years ago wouldn't look much like a dressage test ridden today.. rather like a western pleasure rider of 50 years ago doesn't look much like a western pleasure rider of today. People like to take things to the extreme.. and often at the expense of the animal.


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## gottatrot

@phantomhorse13, I think it is interesting how you define two point vs half seat by the angle of the upper body versus whether the rider has contact with the saddle seat or not. 

Quite some time ago there was a long debate on this forum about what constitutes half seat versus two point. It was very enlightening to me, as it became clear that among a variety of people, including pros and high level riders, the definitions were extremely varied. 
I followed this discussion up by reading a few books and magazines and again found no consensus about what half seat or two point was. 

So I made my own definition, which makes sense to me. Half seat is when the rider does not have all the weight in the saddle, but still is touching it with the seat. Two point is when the rider's seat does not touch the saddle. :grin:

If there was an actual agreed upon definition in the horse world, I would use it, but there is not. 

To me the part that matters is that the seat you show in the photos, and what I am trying to advocate for people is a very secure seat and will get a rider through many hairy and scary things safely. 

I also think having the leg slightly forward as in your Rubicon position is actually better and nothing like a chair seat, just one that uses good body mechanics and the horse's motion to assist the rider.

Regarding @bsms's post: 
I was just thinking about how if the idea of hollow back and inverted etc was true, then this is an interesting article talking about a horse with lordosis and how it doesn't limit his movement in dressage or jumping. I think we attribute so much to the back that is actually relating to the legs.
BRUNETTE IN BREECHES - A Horse With Lordosis - Theodore | BRUNETTE IN BREECHES

In the photo of Bandit, I see a horse using his body well.


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13 Subject change....

You were the one that warned me about the bad experiences with the CAIR system. Read a lot since then that confirmed what you said.

But I did get hold of a Korrector set off Ebay for less than 1/3 price.

I'm doing a "custom fit" to Hondo but until then I'm trying to get a better fit with his saddle that doesn't fit. I've decided it's bridging and have used the two rear sections of the Korrector to fill in the middle dip in his back. I am using an air gauge and using 1.3 PSI and he seems happier. That about 120 square inches that has exactly the same pressure and it showed up on the sweat pattern. Very little air used. Not anything close to causing any kind of bounce.

Edit: For those with calculators, he has weight bearing in front of and behind the 120 sq. in. 

The beauty of this is I don't need a pressure pad. I know exactly what the pressure is in that area.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> A dressage test ridden 50 years ago wouldn't look much like a dressage test ridden today


Reclining in the yard waiting for the horse water tank to fill this question appeared as if from nowhere:

But is the horse any different than the horse was 50 years ago? Until the horse changes, dressage as an enhancement of the horse's natural way of going, dressage should not change either. Or so it would seem to this mind that really knows nothing about dressage and perhaps should not even be discussing it.

As far as the discipline of tai chi that was mentioned, I took weekly courses in that for two years and where I was at least there was an emphasis on replicating exactly as originated.

I'm a stick in the mud. I LIKE no changes


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> But is the horse any different than the horse was 50 years ago? Until the horse changes, dressage as an enhancement of the horse's natural way of going, dressage should not change either. Or so it would seem to this mind that really knows nothing about dressage and perhaps should not even be discussing it.


Not being a dressage rider, I cannot answer this question for sure without doing some research.. but my guts says yes the horse IS different. I know eventing used to be mainly TBs and now is mostly warmbloods because the dressage portion is so heavily weighted and they took out a lot of the endurance parts of the cross country phase. There is certainly a difference in structure between those breeds. My guess is if you looked at the popular dressage horse of 50 years ago compared to today, you would find some physical differences as people have bred for that giant extended trot, etc. Certainly "modern" western pleasure horses look very different than those of 50 years ago and they sure travel differently. Same can be said for halter horses of just about any breed then versus now.


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## Avna

phantomhorse13 said:


> Not being a dressage rider, I cannot answer this question for sure without doing some research.. but my guts says yes the horse IS different. I know eventing used to be mainly TBs and now is mostly warmbloods because the dressage portion is so heavily weighted and they took out a lot of the endurance parts of the cross country phase. There is certainly a difference in structure between those breeds. My guess is if you looked at the popular dressage horse of 50 years ago compared to today, you would find some physical differences as people have bred for that giant extended trot, etc. Certainly "modern" western pleasure horses look very different than those of 50 years ago and they sure travel differently. Same can be said for halter horses of just about any breed then versus now.


As phantomhorse says, it is the horse that has changed. Dressage is like many other horse sports, in that it can enjoyed by almost any horse and rider with motivation to learn it. But to compete at anything but a low local level, you need a specially bred horse for it. I was recently observing a rider dressage-schooling a warmblood at a local arena; the horse looked amazing! What a gorgeous trot! I was gobsmacked at the skill of this rider. A little later the rider was jogging her in hand down the path, on the way back to her trailer -- same EXACT gorgeous floating trot. The rider had nothing to do with this horse's gait, it was bred into her. She couldn't even help doing it. 

In somewhat the same way, an ordinary working stock horse could not compete in the same ring with a purpose-bred cutting horse, and so forth. The funny thing is, these very special horses aren't necessarily a great choice for doing anything but what they do best.


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## Hondo

Well that's all interesting. I had not thought of a horse as being a human created animal as are many dogs, but maybe so. I was told the original Morgans were draft horses and had now been bred more toward saddle horses. I guess that's why Hondo has bigger feet than larger QH's on the ranch and why his gullet measures draft size. And why he has a stocky build.

Well, I don't care. Can't make me like a rollkur or anything closely resembling it. I refuse!


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## gottatrot

Avna said:


> I was recently observing a rider dressage-schooling a warmblood at a local arena; the horse looked amazing! What a gorgeous trot! I was gobsmacked at the skill of this rider. A little later the rider was jogging her in hand down the path, on the way back to her trailer -- same EXACT gorgeous floating trot. The rider had nothing to do with this horse's gait, it was bred into her. She couldn't even help doing it.


I agree very much with @*Avna*'s post and also with @*phantomhorse13*. The horses are bred for the movement, and with the natural arch in the neck, etc. Then when horses move differently (although it is their natural movement), they are considered inverted or the rider is doing something wrong. 

I remember my dressage instructor telling me all the things she had done to train her horse to move the way she did, and about how her riding enhanced it. Then I watched her horse moving in the field, and she moved exactly the same way. Actually, she moved a little better without the rider. And videos of these horses before they are backed shows the same movement. 

Some of it can be enhanced, a little through training or exaggerated. But the horse must move that way naturally or they could never get that movement. So it is breeding and temperament first, then added a little bit of training. 

Since I'm one to wander off on rabbit trails of thought, here is a picture for @*Hondo* of the founder rings on Halla's hooves.


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## Avna

Hondo said:


> Well that's all interesting. I had not thought of a horse as being a human created animal as are many dogs, but maybe so. I was told the original Morgans were draft horses and had now been bred more toward saddle horses. I guess that's why Hondo has bigger feet than larger QH's on the ranch and why his gullet measures draft size. And why he has a stocky build.
> 
> Well, I don't care. Can't make me like a rollkur or anything closely resembling it. I refuse!


Morgans were originally _all-purpose_ horses, not draft horses. Versatility is still a hallmark of the breed, although the ability to pull a plow is not visible in the highly refined Saddlebred-influenced modern type. The traditional type is stocky but stylish, and is still used for snaking logs out of winter woodlots, dragging a stone boat, plowing up the spring garden, and the like, in New England and elsewhere. They are still commonly taught to drive as well as ride.

I am not much of a fan of the sport of dressage either, but I am still learning a great deal from my baby dressage lessons.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> I guess it's back to who one chooses to believe...


True. And if you read Littauer's book, including his own translations of many classic dressage texts, and what happened when cavalries DID try to adopt dressage...well, I think it becomes obvious Littauer knew more about the subject than Wiki.

I also think anyone who reads the research on how a horse's back functions will conclude that "inverted" and "rounded" are false dichotomies - that popular theories such as Bennett's 'ring of muscle' and backs that round up are myths.

From over a year ago, a heated thread started by gottatrot which I have no desire to repeat...but which raises points to ponder:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/

At the root are the questions, "Should a ridden horse move and balance like an unridden horse? Or should a ridden horse be directed in its balance by a human judge?" Hence my observation that we only try to tell a horse how to balance when the balance equation is easy and we won't suffer from failing. When it is tough, and we realize we'll be hurt if the horse cannot get balanced - THEN we give the horse slack, try to get out of its way, and ask it to save us! Which it often does. We experts dig the hole, and then trust our amateur horses to get us out.

So...who is better at math? The student who can do calculus, or the one who can only handle simple addition?

For the record, I don't object to dressage. Not old school dressage, nor the modern school. I consider both acceptable and valid things to do with horses.

After all, my solo trip on Bandit out into the desert this morning isn't something a horse naturally does either. It is no more wrong to teach a horse to move a certain way in an arena than it is to insist he go by himself (as he views it still) into places he suspects predators abound. Both are somewhat unnatural, but both are within the capabilities of most horses to do successfully and cheerfully, if taught.

What I objected to was this quote ( What does 'on the bit' really mean? ):




> The important point here is that in correct riding, you earn the this trust and voluntary submission of the horse in a _physical or gymnastic_ way, by showing the horse that he is safe in balanced motion. *We don't believe that you can ever achieve this level of mental calmness through training the horse by conditioning his mind*, as is the methodology of many natural horsemanship methods...


I strongly believe you gain a horse's trust by getting his mind to trust you, because you are trustworthy. You can use physical movement to help you gain a horse's trust, but the idea that gymnastic training by itself results in superior calmness and trust than training the horse's mind seems, to me, extremely flawed. I guess I'm firmly in the 'natural horsemanship' camp, if that means training the horse's mind.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> I agree very much with @*Avna*'s post and also with @*phantomhorse13*. The horses are bred for the movement, and with the natural arch in the neck, etc. Then when horses move differently (although it is their natural movement), they are considered inverted or the rider is doing something wrong.
> 
> I remember my dressage instructor telling me all the things she had done to train her horse to move the way she did, and about how her riding enhanced it. Then I watched her horse moving in the field, and she moved exactly the same way. Actually, she moved a little better without the rider. And videos of these horses before they are backed shows the same movement.
> 
> Some of it can be enhanced, a little through training or exaggerated. But the horse must move that way naturally or they could never get that movement. So it is breeding and temperament first, then added a little bit of training.
> 
> Since I'm one to wander off on rabbit trails of thought, here is a picture for @*Hondo* of the founder rings on Halla's hooves.











I completely agree.

I enjoy taking dressage back to what it originally was: training, refinement, a way or attempt at improving a horse's way of going beneath a rider. I think it is a lot more challenging (and therefore fun for me) to take a horse not bred to be so floaty and uphill, and see if I can get them to move more fluidly.

Today I saw Shan piaffe at liberty. I've never seen her do that before, ever. I've never even attempted to teach her a piaffe (we're not there yet!). But there she was, performing a piaffe for a moment. I attribute a lot of that to the transition type strength training we have been doing.

On a side note, I once read a book on dressage. The author went so far as to describe the body type that is best for a horseback rider. Well, I'm not that body type. My legs aren't long enough to be that body type. Boy was I hurt and ****** to find out that a well-respected dressage authority didn't think I was suited for riding and could never work hard enough to make myself suited for riding.

Most of modern dressage is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Take it back to what it was originally named for: training.


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## gottatrot

I recently objected to a concept posted on another thread, and nothing against the person who posted it. She seems a good and capable rider. But the concept she was presenting was that self-carriage is not something a horse can do on their own, but rather it is something accomplished through proper use of the bit and other aids the rider uses. 

Self carriage is done by the horse, alone. Teaching a horse to carry himself and balance with a rider only becomes self carriage when he is not relying on our assistance. I think most horses can learn self carriage once the rider learns how to get out of the horse's way so they are not interfering with his weight and balance as he moves. 



> *(BSMS) *
> What I objected to was this quote ( What does 'on the bit' really mean? ):
> 
> Quote:
> The important point here is that in correct riding, you earn the trust and voluntary submission of the horse in a physical or gymnastic way, by showing the horse that he is safe in balanced motion. We don't believe that you can ever achieve this level of mental calmness through training the horse by conditioning his mind, as is the methodology of many natural horsemanship methods...
> 
> *I strongly believe you gain a horse's trust by getting his mind to trust you, because you are trustworthy. You can use physical movement to help you gain a horse's trust, but the idea that gymnastic training by itself results in superior calmness and trust than training the horse's mind seems, to me, extremely flawed*. I guess I'm firmly in the 'natural horsemanship' camp, if that means training the horse's mind.


The bolded part is very good. 

I could agree with the idea behind the quote, if what they were trying to convey was that ground work alone will not translate into training under saddle. Or perhaps if "showing the horse he is safe in balanced motion" meant overcoming the horse's natural fear of having a predator on his back, and instead showing him that a rider can move with him. But that doesn't sound like what is meant, because that can be accomplished in the first week of riding and is the basic of even the most rudimentary training.

Conversely, I've seen that showing the horse that a rider can move in a balanced way with him can result in superior excitability rather than calmness. 
The mind can become more calm once it adapts to things over time. But it is not training the mind alone, for some horses, because their body can cause the release of endorphins and that may cause excitement. So the mind has to learn to adapt to the work without getting too excited. It's also not training the body alone, because you can work and work some horses but they will not have a high level of calmness regardless of how gymnastic and balanced the work is. 

For some horses, discovering that a rider can move with them and not interfere, painlessly, and also direct them to go out and move freely in an area where they would not otherwise go does not lend itself to calmness. Instead, it opens doors to new worlds that they are often "hot to trot" in. 

My bias would be that some horses find work calming and others find it exciting. If the authors rode horses to calmness (assuming they don't mean exhaustion), it was because the types they worked with became calm while using their bodies. Other horses work into excitement, getting more amped as the work goes on - until the point where they tire. A friend has a horse that doesn't even wake up into work until after trotting for several miles. She only works calmly in new places - never in places she's been before.


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## bsms

> "With horses, the smooth flow of the deformed vertebrae, fixed firmly in place by the strong vertebral attachments, appears to protect the spinal cord from harm and swaybacked horses from serious consequences.
> 
> "The comparatively extreme rigidity of the horses' spines might protect them from the major disabilities and life-threatening conditions experienced by species with more flexible spines," says Gallagher."


The Truth About Swaybacks - The Horse Owner's Resource

Interesting article.



> Because senile lordosis is caused by weakness and laxity of the supraspinous and other supporting ligaments along the spine, it may be plausible that horses with longer backs could be at greater risk of developing lordosis if other factors are also considered. These would include:
> 
> 
> lack of regular core building exercise;
> improper saddle fit;
> horse obesity; and
> rider weight and movement.
> It is important to note that because the horse has an extremely rigid vertebral column, lordosis rarely causes pain, health problems or poor performance.


Short-Backed, Long-Backed and Swaybacked Horses


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## Fimargue

To me dressage is about developing the horse, and the rider and horse working in harmony, progressing together to their maximum potential.

When I got my mare she was a racer; her trot was more bouncy, she would always run to a fast canter, and I couldn't for the life of me sit her canter. She could trot for long periods of time without breaking a sweat, but schooling she would find way much harder and would be sweating after the sessions. All I have done is to have helped her develop different muscles for more collected work, not by holding her head in frame and micromanaging all her movements, but doing exercises to engage the different muscles. 

I have no idea about many of the modern dressage riding aids - it just doesn't make any sense to me, and it doesn't make any sense to horses either naturally. Horses don't need us for self-carriage and moving properly, collection, extension - any of that. It's already all what they do naturally, trick is finding that together and building for longer lasting performance. It's very egoist and much expected from humans to think that it's all due to us how the horses can perform.

You don't need a Warmblood to progress in dressage, but you need a Warmblood to win in the higher levels because that is what the judges want to see. You also need short reins for the same reason.

My favorite freestyle. That's a correct extended trot and piaffe. Outraging is that they didn't place, just because Fuego XII is not a WB and doesn't move like one - or maybe they didn't like him doing flying changes with one hand :wink: lol.


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## egrogan

@Fimargue-that's my absolute favorite freestyle too! I've posted it on here so many times I made myself stop because I figured people were sick of me posting it :wink: oddly, my favorite part of it is his walk, followed of course by the changes in the circle.

Still makes me smile when I'm having a bad day.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> The Truth About Swaybacks - The Horse Owner's Resource
> 
> Interesting article.
> 
> Short-Backed, Long-Backed and Swaybacked Horses


Yes, I am thinking about if it is so important for the back to be supposedly rounded due to the arching and lifting of the back muscles, then how do these horses with lordosis still jump and do dressage maneuvers? But I believe as other threads have discussed, people have compared our own backs to a horse's back, even though the truth is that horses have far more rigid backs than many mammals, and certainly much more rigid than humans.

Watching that dressage video, I am wondering if in the future horses might be judged more accordingly to their particular breed and anatomy versus basing all high level dressage on Warmbloods. 
Certainly horses have been meddled with as much as dogs, and everything from size to temperament to color has been adjusted to human liking. With dogs, we often adjust a sport to accommodate how we've made them, but with horses we only differentiate at lower level and breed shows. I don't see why Iberian types can't have their own high level dressage instead of being considered substandard based on their body type. 

As I've mentioned, I have a love/hate relationship with dressage. I blame it for teaching me many things I've had to unlearn, that did more harm than good to my riding and training horses. I also have positive things that studying dressage taught me. 

I'm glad for some of the things it made me consider, such as that my horse's feet can travel on parallel and diagonal lines, that a horse following his nose might be either bent or straight, how to make round circles, and that any gait can be shortened or lengthened.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I agree with this. I took western dressage for about three years. 

Where it excelled: 
1)	I have ADD so it helped me focus on things like foot falls so I can time a cue at the right placement to make it easier on the horse to respond correctly (setting them up for success).
2)	Because it was persnickety, it refined my cues and gave them flow
3)	Repetition reinforced cues with a green horse
4)	I learned more about rein cues than I will probably ever need to use

Where I think it left things to be desired:
1)	My horse didn’t enjoy it. Not all horses will
2)	Patterns are great but, for some of us it takes the fun out of the freedom of creative riding; uniformity/conformity
3)	It develops a way of thinking whereby there is only one “correct” way of going for all

Harmony; there are many ways to be riding in harmony with your horse. It can happen on the trails where you not only are one body but, almost one mind.

Self-Carriage: it happens in western horses on a loose rein with a rider who is doing nothing to hold the horse together with legs or reins…so there are many ways to get there.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> True. And if you read Littauer's book, including his own translations of many classic dressage texts, and what happened when cavalries DID try to adopt dressage...well, I think it becomes obvious Littauer knew more about the subject than Wiki.


It wasn't just Wiki. I Googled Origins of Dressage. Every single link that came up said the same thing that Wiki said. So it looks like it's Littauer against the world.

@Avna Ok, so they were just bred "away" from the draft component. When dad sold the team of draft horses and bought a tractor he also bought a Morgan to plow our garden with. We had a large garden as we grew all of our food.

I wanted a saddle horse and didn't know I had one already! If I get too decrepit to ride when Hondo is still going, I'll be able to hook him up to a cart. I thought about it anyhow.

@gottatrot That looks a bit like Hondo's ring. About the same time I took him off alfalfa, I caught him in the feed room munching down on alfalfa to his content. I modified the entrance after that. Seeing her hoof and knowing what happened to cause it is instructive.

@bsms I'm certainly far from convinced that gymnastics is the route to gaining a horse's trust, but the concept of "training a horse's mind" seems foreign to me. The route I have tried to follow is to simply be predictable to Hondo. And that includes being predictable in never causing fear or pain or acting hostile. I really think that's about all there is to it.

All

Ok, horses have evolved into different breeds and also have been intentionally bred into different breeds. Arabians excel at endurance. Thoroughbreds excel at racing. Etc. But to my mind, through it all, a horse is still a horse and the best and proper methods for training and caring for them have not really changed much if at all since Xenophon. And so it seems to me it should be with dressage.

I have not seen a lot of horses. The most being the wild herds of Nevada. Maybe there are horses out there somewhere that naturally carry their heads in the vertical, but I haven't seen them. If they are there, I'd like to see them.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> It wasn't just Wiki. I Googled Origins of Dressage. Every single link that came up said the same thing that Wiki said. So it looks like it's Littauer against the world...


That would have been a familiar position for Littauer. And for me. Not sure I'd rely on Google and Wiki for specialized knowledge. The Development of Modern Riding is available for anyone interested. I found it well written, highly opinionated (of course!) and well thought out, but I really enjoyed Littauer's writing:


> But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus. Just as in former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type of circus - unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations...
> 
> ...but there is another factor which separates the chosen few from other horsemen even more than merely ways of making money. This is an exceptional and very special inborn talent which is essential to these riders (and, it may be added, to the horses which compete in modern international shows) if they are to win. No riding teacher or trainer has ever made international winners out of merely able men and horses. *All the great international riders and international horses were made in heaven; the teachers and trainers they may have had helped merely to develop their gifts*. Only a handful of men and horses can play this extremely difficult game..." - The Development of Modern Riding, VS Littauer, pg 252


 Boldface mine.


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## Hondo

More about trust:

I absolutely do not believe a horse can be trained to trust, whether through "training the mind" or through some gymnastic effort.

I believe a horse makes his own independent decision about whom to trust and whom not to trust. Our own consistent, dependable, and predictable behavior along with our deepest and innermost feelings and intents toward the horse is what the horse basis his decision upon.

And so to gain the trust of a horse, it is not the horse that needs to be trained but rather ourselves. And not only our outer behavior, but a deeper examination of our feelings toward the horse, which in my mind may even be more important that our outward behavior.

And I would stress that a horse's compliance to our wishes is of course not necessarily an indication of trust. Hard to define that but I think the overall body language presented by the horse when approaching the horse bridle or halter in hand may be a good indication.

We as humans make judgments about the trustworthiness of other humans on an almost daily basis ranging from, 'better watch out for them to hey I think I might kinda like that person'.

Horse's ability and intelligence in seeing someone for who they really are far surpasses our own, or so it seems. And so it would seem that we best approach them as someone that can actually and literally read our minds. I don't believe they actually can, but in some ways I believe the do approach that.

I believe that people like Tom Dorrance are just seen as someone who is trustworthy. And for a horse to deem a predator with eyes located in the front of their skull as trustworthy is an honor indeed.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Our own consistent, dependable, and predictable behavior along with our deepest and innermost feelings and intents toward the horse is what the horse basis his decision upon.


Is that not what you would define as "training?" If not, what does "training" mean to you?


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## tinyliny

I think to say "training' the mind of a horse sounds odd. but working with a horse is most definitely learning how to access and direct the mind of a horse. so, maybe that IS training the mind.

believe me, the best dressage riders are accessing the mind of their horses. it may look like it is forceful, but these horses are allowed a great deal of choice. they are VERY strong horses, physically much stronger than many of qh's you see ridden by average Joes. much more explosive,. And they are allowed a great deal of latitude in how much they cooperate , or not. the best dressage riders do not spend a lot of time of disciplining the horse is smaller ways. they allow the horse to express a lot more of his opinion about things when being handled, lead, fed etc because they do not want to constrain that push and drive any more than necessary. 

many other disciplines work much more to quell that, and to imput stricter behavioral limits on the horse. I require stricter behavioral limits. I do not let my horse to push past me when being led, to barge or to call out to friends. to decide he'd like to make a trot into a gallop. I would nitpic on those, but many top dressage trainers let those expressions of equine power go past them. they don't require such tight observance of space, either.

they allow a lot more of what I would see as bad behavior, even under saddle. that is because there is energy there, and they do not ever want to quell the horse's natural energy. they want to SHAPE it.
most of us would be scared to sit on the back of the horses these guys ride; the latent energy would blow you away.

I watched the Nat. Geographic special on PBS about the Lippizan horses and the Spanish Riding School. those horses are allowed so much freedom. and yet, . . and yet . . they can be so amazingly molded. and, they seem to love it. at least, they seem healthy and cooperative. there must be something to it. and yet, I never saw any of the humans punish or discipline them for any violation of space or any other equine behavior. the level of trust is amazing.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Is that not what you would define as "training?" If not, what does "training" mean to you?


Well yes, I'd call it training in a way. But not training the horse. What I'm trying to get at is that to attain the trust of the horse, it is not the horse that must be trained but rather ourselves. And I'm just applying this to attaining trust.

To gain a response to a particular wish of ours, of course the horse needs to learn through experience what it is we are asking for. Teaching cues through body language. Sure.

But it is my deep belief that a horse cannot be taught or trained to trust us. We must train ourselves to be trustworthy and the horse will then upon his own volition "decide" that we are trustworthy.


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## gottatrot

@tinyliny, I partially agree with you about dressage training, but yet the horses that are mainly used for it do have a different type of temperament. They are both energetic and sometimes explosive, but they also have a tolerance for mental pressure that some other breeds do not have. There is a reason Arabs and TBs don't excel at dressage, even though they are such athletic breeds. It's more relating to their mental capacity than their build, even though the body type is also a factor. 

I don't believe the horses are allowed to show expressions of energy when being handled because they are allowed more freedom for their mental health, but rather because the trainers prioritize the ridden work much higher than ground handling. They can deal with those things, and it doesn't affect their scores in the ring. 
I'm not meaning the Lipizzaners, because they have a different, long tradition of training that includes letting the horses mature, long lining to prepare the mind, etc. But rather modern high level dressage horses. 

I've seen so much force used in dressage, in person at the higher levels during warm up, that I think the horses are basically culled out based on whether they can handle that much pressure without going crazy or harming people. The top level horses are rare, being able to have the extreme movement, the mental ability to handle the pressure, and the physical ability to not break down. 

*********************************************
I've been learning about trust and flooding from a cat recently. We adopted the barn cat, he'd been in hiding for a year since coming to our barn with no one seeing more than his tail. We've had him in our house now for about four months. Initially, we gave him a room and a place to hide, and we hoped he would adapt to us. After a little while, I tried some flooding, knowing it was probably not a good idea. I'd bring him and put him on the couch, and try to get him to relax there. Sometimes he seemed fine, but he never really adapted and would run off when given the chance.

After several days, I realized that this was not going to work, so we went back to patience, showing the cat we were trustworthy and not forcing him to do anything he didn't do on his own. 
This route has been very slow, but the cat is finally trusting us. Each day he tries new things to see how they work, expanding his borders farther into the house and sitting still when loud noises happen, staying put when we walk right by him. 

He's sort of training his own body and mind, to not react in fear and to trust. But we are doing our part too, being mindful of his reactions, making all our attention positive, giving frequent treats and pettings, showing him that only good things come from us and never harm. 

I think this is the same process with horses; the process involves the horse adapting to us and also us showing the horse that we are trust worthy. We can sometimes get physical compliance, just as I could get the cat to stay on the couch. But the mental component of trust and acceptance is huge. As my DH has pointed out, you can see in the cat's entire demeanor that he is blossoming into life now. He moves relaxed, he walks with a strut, he does things because he enjoys them. Without the mental compliance, he was fearful inside and did not trust us, and he had tight facial expressions, a guarded body language, and was always waiting for something bad to happen. 

Before, we had a cat sitting on a chair in a room and not running away, accepting that we would walk up and pet him. Now we have a cat that strolls out into the living room, stretches out his paws and rolls himself over on his back. I want my horses to have that trust, freedom and joy when doing things with me, not merely physical compliance. 

We get those things by proving ourselves trustworthy of bringing good things and good experiences to our horses rather than just the ability to make them do what we say and behave a certain way. 

Sheesh, I sound like I'm selling natural horsemanship, eh?


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## bsms

*Long post warning!*



Hondo said:


> Well yes, I'd call it training in a way. But not training the horse....
> 
> But it is my deep belief that a horse cannot be taught or trained to trust us. We must train ourselves to be trustworthy and the horse will then upon his own volition "decide" that we are trustworthy.


From September, 2015, on my journal about Bandit:



bsms said:


> ...I think much of NH comes down to this: "all respected clinicians agree". It is tough to hold a clinic where 4,000 fans go ride with you for 10-15 miles. It is tough to sell the idea that trust comes with time, and is earned by being trust-worthy, not by round pen gimmicks.
> 
> Horses need a leader. A leader doesn't stand around and say, "So...what are we doing today?"
> 
> On another thread, SueC wrote: " "If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will."
> 
> That is an excellent one-sentence statement of what I would call real natural horsemanship - horse training that works with how horses naturally learn things. If I dismount, then lead Bandit past a scary thing with me between him and the scary thing, I'm not just teaching him the scary thing is not scary. I'm teaching him I care about his well being and will protect him - to the point of putting myself at risk.
> 
> A horse in a strange environment needs to learn what is scary and what is not. It would naturally learn that from its mother and the herd. But if you take a horse raised in the very open country of the Navajo reservation, and put him in a place where he often can't see very far and where there are garage door openers and chain saws and things he never learned about, how is he going to learn?
> 
> It seems to me he needs training, not domination. He needs to be introduced to the new world by someone "older and wiser" and taught the ropes. That ought to build a trust that isn't built in round pens. Shouldn't "Natural Horsemanship" involve some measure of "natural"?





bsms said:


> ...There is an old phrase. "Horse sense" dates back at least as far as 1805 in England. The Cambridge dictionary says it refers to someone with "practical knowledge and good judgment about ordinary life". Writing in modern times, and I suspect with scant experience around horses, they assume it is connected to horses meaning country, and the crude supposed wisdom of county folks.
> 
> But after 7 years around horses, I think it means the sense that horses have - a surprisingly practical approach and one that, given time, can see thru a lot of artifice ("a clever trick or something intended to deceive"). It is pretty easy to fool a horse once or twice, but I think horses show, over time, good sense in assessing people and their intentions.
> 
> It is one of the reasons I believe you build trust by being trust-worthy. Gimmicks work in an arena for a week-end show, but don't hold up over the years...
> 
> ...But if I want to be seen as the leader from the saddle, then I need to establish my bona fides in the saddle. And it seems to me - and I'm struggling to figure this out - I ought to do it the way Mia did: take charge, but then also establish a track record of taking care of my horses. I need to show them I understand the difference between scary and scary-looking. I need to show them I won't put them in a spot where they will be hurt...
> 
> ...It goes back to Tom Roberts idea of letting a horse go past scary things on a slack rein - giving them freedom, and support, and letting them work out at least part of it for themselves. But when doing that, I need to be emotionally clear - sending a message of "I know you can do it" and total confidence in my horse. If I don't overwhelm him by putting him in a situation he can't handle, then the horse will learn confidence in himself and trust in me - in himself, because he succeeds, and in me, because I knew it all along.
> 
> I think THIS is what creates willing teamwork between horse and rider.
> 
> If my horse senses something that worries him, I don't tell him to "Shut up and color!" I respect his concern. We look at it together...for 5 seconds. If it is nothing, I tip his head away and cue him forward. In essence, I say, "I see it, it isn't a problem, let's get on with work". But if the horse is too scared to get on with work, then I try to set him up for finding out I was right all along.
> 
> I limit some options very forcibly, if need be. We do not spin around. Any spinning WILL end up with us still facing the threat. We do NOT try to run away. I might ASK him to turn 180 and walk 75 feet, and then ask him to turn 180 back to the threat...but we will NOT run away. I limit those options.
> 
> But WE then face it together. If it is bad enough, I'll dismount, put myself in between, and then let the horse move closer one step at a time WITH me - and knowing I'll be eaten first. When the horse eventually realizes it is nothing bad, I mount up and we move on - in mutual agreement that it wasn't bad.
> 
> If I can do it without dismounting, all the better....No one episode will win the battle. And since this is something I started trying with Mia, and am now still working on with bandit...well, it might fail. But it is based on my theory that horses have "horse sense", and that to get my horse's trust I must be trust-worthy.
> 
> And that won't happen in a round pen, because the round pen is too artificial and the horse knows it. The principles of "join up" work to convince a horse that something that seems scary is actually something you can relax around. But I don't see how any amount of round pen work will ever show the horse I (or humans generically) deserve his trust....


It is now Early May, 2017. I've owned Bandit for almost two years. My grandson got his first ride on a horse today...Cowboy, not Bandit. I trust Cowboy with my 3 year old grandson, somewhat:










Wouldn't trust Bandit that far. Not yet.

But he is getting there. Not through gymnastic training, or by putting him on the bit. When I write about training the mind, I don't mean mind tricks. I mean assuming the horse is capable of learning, and thinking, and evaluating. And then EARNING his trust by being TRUSTWORTHY. 100 times, 200 time, 400 times.

Bandit is certainly not fearless, nor totally trusting. But he's gone from a VERY tense horse going everywhere on pins and needles, ready to run away at the slightest concern, to one who generally will move ahead. Even when uncomfortable. Because he seems to understand that if I say it isn't scary, it probably is safe.

There isn't even a fraction of the tension that was constant in his back when I got him. He isn't 1/20th as reactive. I can't say we go in a straight line past rows of terrible garbage cans. We kind of weave back and forth, splitting the difference between them! The horse who had been sacked out and round penned a la Clinton Anderson (by his previous owner), and who had been "pushed past" things (by his previous owner), is developing trust and confidence. In me. With it comes relaxation. 

After 15-20 minutes, when he blows the boogers out of his brain, he starts to relax all the way to his toes, so to speak. He will always be far more cautious and concerned than the other two. That is his nature when in the corral with the others, so I don't expect it to go away entirely just because I'm on his back.

That is what I mean by training his mind. I do believe you can teach a horse to trust humans, and to trust our judgment. Not by round pen work. Well, that might work with some horses. Can't say otherwise. But with truly, deep down nervous horses like Mia and Bandit, I think it boils down to proving BOTH that you care, AND that you have good judgment. You teach the horse genuine trust by being trustworthy.

That is why I responded so negatively to the idea that gymnastic training creates calmness beyond the ability of natural horsemanship. I've done no sacking out of Bandit, and wish he hadn't had it before me. I've done very limited gymnastic work, although I did teach him to accept contact with a bit. But it mostly has boiled down to riding out, and taking whatever time it has taken to teach him that I know what is scary and what is not. Trust, from PROVING myself to be worthy of trust. And trusting his "horse sense" to figure it out.

Don't know if it would work with every horse. Bandit is just my second, and maybe my last. He did great on today's ride. He was NOTHING like the frightened horse he was two years ago. Cautious? Darn tooting! Observant? Of course. Arabian-Mustang mix. Can't expect (and don't want) otherwise. I sure wish I had started work with Mia using the same approach I have used with Bandit. But of course, I was able to use it with Bandit because of what I learned from 7 years with Mia.


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## Hondo

Horses make decisions. They decide things. Horses have volition. I believe it is important to keep this in mind at all times.

Horses come to believe which horses in the herd can be trusted. They are not taught to trust that horse. It comes about by continual observation. And a horse's trust is not all or nothing. And it is never unconditional but always conditional on the continued observance of trustworthy behavior.

Trust by it's very meaning cannot be taught. It is an internal belief based on compelling evidence. One can decide to part their hair on the right or left side. But a person cannot really decide to believe something. The person must be personally convinced that the thing is true, otherwise one simply cannot believe it. I can be taught math, art, how to work the @#$% computer, but I cannot be taught to trust. That comes about from somewhere upon my own volition. It could be called a decision, but once I trust, unless someone changes, I cannot really choose not to trust. I do or I don't.

Same with the horse's trust. It is the horse and solely the horse that must become convinced of our trustworthiness. And that indeed comes about only if we are predictable and non-hostile in both our thoughts and actions with a high degree of consistency.

@gottatrot The cat story was a beautiful story. Kudos to your DH as he sounds to be very much a part of it. Not sure I can relate your methods to NH though. I mean, you didn't try snaking a rope to his chin until he settled did you? 

Rimmey, the horse that was abused by a neighbor rancher, has been out with the herd and doing some cattle work for about a month. The person that uses him is not abusive but is not as gentle as he needs.

He is back with Dragon and I now and when first here he would not allow me to approach him with a halter in hand. He displayed a high degree of fear. Now I can walk out into the field and drag the halter and lead all over him. In the yard he is beginning to be almost as big of a problem as Dragon in terms of coming over and pestering me.

Warms my heart.


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## gottatrot

Both of the above posts are really great. All of these philosophies should be combined in a book about horses for people to ponder over.



Hondo said:


> Horses make decisions. They decide things. Horses have volition. I believe it is important to keep this in mind at all times.
> 
> Horses come to believe which horses in the herd can be trusted. They are not taught to trust that horse. It comes about by continual observation. And a horse's trust is not all or nothing. And it is never unconditional but always conditional on the continued observance of trustworthy behavior.


This is why I don't believe you can just teach a horse "respect," or that one strong act by the owner is going to convince a horse that the owner is the "alpha" forever, or that one episode of "sacking out" as @bsms says will teach the horse to be confident always.

It is always conditional. But horses are forgiving, too, of our mistakes. There's some unknown ratio of how trustworthy we have to be, or what percentage of the time we have to do things right in the horse's eyes. I'd say if I was calm, measured, fair and kind 98% of the time, a horse would forgive me if I did something stupid 2% of the time. We don't have to worry about being perfect, that's for sure.


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## horseluvr2524

I think the mark of a good horse person, or good animal handler for that matter, is being able to read what the animal is telling you and adapt to the circumstance.

Some horses require a shove back when they decide to shove you. Shan is like that. I have seen her with people who will not be firm with a horse, or who's extent of being firm is a swat on the nose and 'no, you're such a bad girl!'. She turns into an absolute train wreck with people like that. A complete nervous wreck, because she thinks now she has to be the leader, that it's her responsibility to keep the human and herself safe. I have discovered over the years that she very much does not prefer to be the top leader. I caught her more than once staring out into a quiet, peaceful desert in the middle of the night, anxiously watching. Night after night. While Belle was busy eating, she was standing guard against whatever terrors she perceived out there.
When I finally learned how to correct her, be firm with her, and dealt with all those terrible spoiled behaviors I created through my ignorance, she blossomed. She turned into a horse who is actually nice to ride, and for the most part well behaved with a minimal amount of shenanigans. (If she ever made no shenanigans, then I would know there is something wrong lol).

Belle, on the other hand, is not a horse that needs a firm hand. A firm, cowboy, strong leader type turns her into a nervous wreck. She does very well with 'no, no, you're such a bad girl' correction. Belle is one of those horses who just can do no wrong. She wouldn't dream about shoving you with her nose, or trying to take off on the lead, or do anything knowingly and inherently bad.
You don't even need any physical contact to correct her. For example, last week I was bringing the girls in from the makeshift turnout. I was leading Shan by her fly mask, as always, and letting Belle go to her stall on her own. Belle decided to stop at the drive thru (aka, hay/feed room) on the way to her stall. I turned around and caught her in the act, and a simple stern shout of "Belle" caused her to visibly startle and scuttle her rear right to her stall.

I will admit, sometimes I question myself when it comes to Shan. Sometimes, when I read from people who have a distaste for firm handling, I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. But then I have to remind myself: Shan is not Belle. Shan is different. Neither of them can be handled the same way. The key with the firm handling is that I'm always fair. Only as firm as necessary. It is far better to correct one time and be done, than to nag ineffectively.

I have to remind myself that some people who would be appalled to see me backing Shan all the way down the aisle after she tries to drag me off on the lead, those people often only deal with horses like Belle. Sensitive horses that don't need or won't tolerate very firm handling.

Fact of the matter is that every animal needs to be handled differently. That is why I'm not a fan of these training videos and cookie cutter approaches. While they can be valuable tools, not every horse is going to respond well or react the same way as what the trainers say or instruct.

Some horses do respond well to a Clinton Anderson or similar approach. While I'm not any big fan of his, I do think that his approach works well for spoiled, out of control horses, some who are to the point of being dangerous.
Then other approaches that are very patient, non-confrontational, slow, etc. work well for those sensitive horses, who would never thrive under a Clinton Anderson style.

We are long past the days of throwing a saddle on and flooding an untrained animal, truly breaking his spirit. Thank God we are past those days.
But saying that there is only one way is just as foolish. Saying that all horses can be trained in such a way that a firm, or even harsh, correction is never needed is simply not true. In the same way, saying that all horses must be trained by firm handling and 'cowboying', is also not true.

It all just goes back to _listen_. Listen to what the animal is telling you, and then you will know, or you will learn, how to respond. 

This is why I think it would be a great thing if everyone would at least try liberty with their horse. It is truly eye opening, and gives you such an excellent sense of timing and feel, when you communicate with your horse without constraints. You learn how to pick up the small things your horse is telling you.


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## bsms

I've read a lot of books, but the first one I found that discussed "nervous horses" was James Fillis' "Breaking and Riding" (1890):



> "The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.
> 
> I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....
> 
> ...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence." (186)


Each horse I've had needed a different approach. Trooper dislikes me. Sees me as too loud, too aggressive. I've never been harsh with him, but he was spurred bloody by a guy and maybe I remind him of that person. Once under saddle, he rides well for me. Just doesn't LIKE me!

Cowboy & I get along well enough. Cowboy is actually a very easy horse to get along with, if you like trail riding. Indulge him some, trust him to work with you, and he's an agreeable chap.

Bandit is rougher than Mia. He can be successfully forced to do things, but he never bought in to it. He can tolerate me & I tolerate him. He was nervous, but I think he will turn into a confident horse.

Mia freaked under pressure. She was willing but deeply afraid, and I took forever to realize how deep that fear ran, or how many 'safe' rides would be needed to overwrite her fear. But, for example, if you thought you could calm her by 'moving her feet' - you were in for a HUGE and unpleasant surprise! And once spun up, she would remain at the boiling point for 30 minutes or more - where Bandit will cool off in 2 minutes.

Discussing a specific dressage training event, James Fillis wrote:



> A horseman who has great delicacy and tact, will stop the animal at the first time and pat him. But the less tact he has, the less capable is he of judging if the time is in cadence. Such a man will continue in his attempts to catch the cadence, and will succeed only in upsetting the nerves of his horse. These remarks explain the fact that a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle, which will wear them both out.
> 
> The unskillful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs.


 That timing is what makes so much so hard, particularly for a new rider. You can have a great tactic, but if your timing is off, you dig holes instead of build achievement.

Of course, even great timing won't compensate much for bad tactics. But in so many of the books I've read and videos I've watched, what was missing was the idea of the horse as a person. That is why I threw over half of my books on riding away. They treated horses like computers to program instead of people to understand. Outside of some posters on HF, I don't think I've seen the simple concept of teaching a horse to trust by being worthy of a horse's trust.



> Trust by it's very meaning cannot be taught. @Hondo


 Perhaps it is semantics, but I think trust can be taught. Or earned. Same thing, I think. Assuming the pupil is capable of learning, you teach trust by earning trust, and repeating it until the lesson gets thru. Ideally, if every human the horse meets act trustworthy - and mine meet very few - then the horse will learn to trust humans generically.


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## Hondo

I "taught" high school students for 7 years. About 160 students for about 180 days each year. There have been many valid arguments posited that students actually cannot be "taught" at all.

These thoughts centered around a notion that learning is an active thing that the student by volition engages in. The student must "want" to learn something. The best the "teacher" can do is to lead the student to the answer being sought. For myself, that was done principally through the Socratic method of asking questions until the student ultimately answered their own original question.

I don't think of that as training the mind. The student is in full control of their mind. I would be more or less in the back seat with the student driving and me telling which way to turn at the next intersection in order to get to the destination.

When the destination was reached, the aha moment, the epiphany, the student would invariably mentally dismiss me. They would not want to be mentally aware of me at this point. They wanted to be alone with their thoughts and their aha moment. It was very important that I did not interfere with this time period. I would generally just quietly move away.

Watching an aha moment occur was, to me, a very pleasurable experience and is what kept me there for the seven years.

I've read about some trainers talking about allowing the horse to have "dwell time" when learning. I have thought that this sounds like the same thing as leaving a student alone with their aha moment, letting them "own" that moment.

When I first came to the ranch I was full of questions. Many of them were answered by the simple statement, " All horses are different". I now relate that to a classroom of 30 students. You bet. Every single one of them are different in many ways and to be successful must be approached in different ways.

I have had the pleasurable experience of witnessing thousands and thousands of aha moments. But I never felt I was ever in any way in control of that students mind. I was just sitting in the back seat serving as a road map to the driver in the front seat.

Horses are curious and for some reason they are really curious about the two legged human. I believe they want to know us. Perhaps it's so they won't have to worry about us being a source of danger. But there is a connection there that can be had I believe.

During 1966-1967 I taught for one year in Pagosa Springs, CO back when it was a dusty cowtown. I became friends with a teacher whose family had a small ranch that no one lived on other than 5 horses. I asked Benny, "When are you going to let me ride one of your horses?" "You can ride any horse you can catch."

The very next Saturday I went to the ranch alone and sat on a large stump in the middle of a field. After several hours of sitting all five were around me, knocking off my hat, inspecting me, and generally being a nuisance, which I of course was loving.

I finally slipped my belt off, put it around King's neck, mounted and rode a few steps. He was my horse for the rest of the year. Up and down steep mountains with Benny in the lead and two handfuls of mane as we rode only bareback.

But the point is, they are curious and I think really want to know and understand us for some strange reason. Important that we don't spoil that.

And for @bsms , I like a lot of what Fillis says, I did purchase his book, but when he says that horses are low intelligence he really turns me off. If intelligence is:the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills, then I rate the horse as highly intelligent in ways, and in those ways more intelligent than us.


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## bsms

I think what Fillis means is that horses are poor at rational thought. Cause/effect, straight-line, "If A, then B" thinking. This is important when dealing with a nervous horse because they don't distinguish well between "fear" and "high emotion", or what the root cause of that fear/high emotion is.

That was a huge problem for me with Mia. It was also why many of the approaches favored by traditional training and many of the popular NH trainers failed her. Many NH trainers teach that if the horse is getting worried, move their feet. But many hot horses get heightened emotions when their feet move - and they don't distinguish well between heightened fun, heightened enthusiasm and heightened fear.

So when you start making the horse turn, and move, and get after them, the hot & nervous horse becomes more emotional. And they don't distinguish between that emotion and fear, so they actually LEARN that seeing the scary-looking thing results in terrible fear, and thus the scary-looking thing is TRULY scary! And if it is the rider who gets after them, then the rider becomes someone who - from their view - psychotically loses his/her mind in scary situations, requiring the poor horse to face every scary-looking thing with a psycho on her back!

The advice I got, both locally and in videos and here on HF, focused on one of two things:

1 - Act calm. She is only afraid because YOU are afraid. Which was horse poop! I could be calm and relaxed and have her suddenly gripped by fear. But if she was suddenly gripped with fear, then

2 - Get after her. Harder. Get a bigger whip. I needed 'a secure seat' so I could punish her harder. Then she would learn I was The Great Leader, and stop challenging my authority.

A third way, also sometimes suggested, was to get her in a round pen and teach her to trust me there. Teach her confidence in me by tying her up and moving scary things around her, or teach her to follow me in a round pen. Following me around like a puppy - 'join up' - would mean she trusted me and felt safe with me and wouldn't ever feel fear.

All of which was very counter-productive. And after reading a lot of respected books and watching videos with a lot of popular trainers, I encountered James Fillis. I certainly do not agree with everything he wrote. In his old age, he was hired by the Russian Cavalry, and his system of dressage training is what VS Littauer was taught - and what Littauer saw fail miserably in combat. Worse, when Littauer wrote his early books (1930-ish?), he was convinced by many years of exposure to hundreds of horses that NO HORSE ENJOYS BEING RIDDEN. That is about as bad a failure as possible.

In terms of setting up a systematic program for teaching cavalry horses, James Fillis was a total failure.

But he was still better than the writers and video trainers and local trainers I had encountered before him. He at least understood what Mia was experiencing. He gave me my first hint in how to turn it around. Mia would have been a challenge for lots of folks, but I made things much worse following advice from people who were clueless about nervous horses. I didn't dig a hole with Mia before meeting Fillis in print. I dug a copper mine! Filling it in, even partially, took years. Tom Roberts gave me better advice, and between Fillis and Roberts I began the process of training Mia successfully. Training. Teaching. Making it possible for her to learn. I'm not too concerned which it is. But before meeting James Fillis (1834–1913), I foundered in a sea of bad advice.

You teach a horse trust by being trustworthy. I don't recall ever seeing that in print until I wrote it a few years ago. @SueC nudged me in that direction, and Tom Roberts and others obviously practiced it, but I read a LOT of books, posted for years on HF and watched a LOT of videos and hired professional trainers - and I never heard anyone say it nor found it explicitly in print.

It is like my daughter's comment, years ago, that "_Horses don't talk because people don't listen, and horses don't waste their breath talking to brick walls._" It follows then that if you want your horse to talk, start with listening. Intently. Once the horse realizes you are listening, he will start to come out of his shell and start talking. We don't need _horse whisperers_. We need _horse listeners_! Then the horse will start to whisper to us!

It seems obvious. It has worked with every horse I've tried it with, although that is a small number. Many people DO it. But it ought to be axiomatic. It ought to be one of the first things people learn about horses. But I would have been far better with Mia if someone had told me, at the start:

Her fears are real to her even if they seem silly to you.

If you want your horse to talk, listen.

If you want your horse to trust you, be trustworthy.​ 
And yes, all of that takes time. Years, perhaps, with a deeply nervous horse. No gimmicks. No tricks.


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## mmshiro

bsms said:


> Many NH trainers teach that if the horse is getting worried, move their feet.


I'm currently working with, and learning to ride on, a horse that was abused and still has trust and fear issues. In my first interaction with him, it took me ten minutes (in his stall) for him to let me take off his blanket for a brushing. Whenever I would touch the buckles in the front, he'd scurry away. So I made the scary thing less scary by moving my hand near the buckles and retreating...touching the buckles and retreating...wiggling the buckles then retreating, etc. 

While he's a feisty trail horse, in the arena he still has a fear of the PVC trotting poles he got beaten with. I have yet to get him to walk over one, but when we started, he wouldn't even get near it. So rather than compounding his nervousness by demanding, I kept encouraging him to go a bit closer, then turned him away...until he finally jumped the pole and took off in a canter. From then, the exercise was to slow him down. He now thinks for a second, then trots over the pole, and, leaving it behind, slows right down. My proudest achievement was a triple combination of two cavalettis and a cross rail at a reasonable, consistent canter – according to the owner (rescuer, farm owner, instructor), I'm the first in nine years to get him to do that. 

Unless the fear is overwhelming, horses can figure stuff out if you give them some time to investigate and, if possible, begin desensitizing with a less intense fear stimulus. If he won't get near the tarp, start with a handkerchief. 

I can see the virtue of moving their feet if they get worried about...nothing in particular. It's like whistling on the graveyard - it gives your mind something to occupy itself with so you don't start visualizing ever scarier scenarios about what's lurking behind those grave stones (and beneath). Of course a Marine drill instructor yelling at you does not serve to distract your mind from the "scary thing". As with everything, it's important to find the correct measure and read your horse's response correctly. Moving their feet may just mean side-passing left-right-left-right across the trail at the walk – by having to work out (and on) your cues, the horse's mind spends less capacity on creating horror scenarios. After all, one of the survival reactions besides "fight" or "flight" is "freeze", and a freeze usually ends in an explosion.


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## tinyliny

you move the feet so that the mind does't blow. so, like the above poster said, if the horse is going to blow up at something minor, if you move the feet, you allow the pressure out without it exploding out a second later.

really, though, you are moving the mind. that's why the doing the advance retreat works. you move the mind INTO the scary area just enough to enter it, but not enough to create enough pressure to explode. if, moving the feet will help the horse dispell some of the pent up 'mind' (fear thought), then it can help.

but, just moving the feet without obsevring to see that they stay connected to the horse's thought brings the hrose to where their feet are being seperated from their thought, and that feels bad.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> you move the feet so that the mind does't blow. so, like the above poster said, if the horse is going to blow up at something minor, if you move the feet, you allow the pressure out without it exploding out a second later...


Except:

A) Moving the feet doesn't always release the pressure. Certainly not when done as is taught in a number of NH videos:






Spend 2-3 minutes of turning to get Mia to stop "using the reactive side of her mind" would result in a horse spending 30+ minutes in an extremely reactive mode. "Make him run his butt around his front quarters" undoubtedly works with SOME horses. Otherwise CA wouldn't be popular. But it also makes some horses much worse - and not too many NH trainers seem willing to admit that.

In a sense, James Fillis 'gave me permission', in spite of my lack of experience, to stop following the advice given by people who owned less reactive and nervous horses, and instead seek out those - such as gottatrot - who had dealt with nervous horses.

But it seems to me that the simple concept of "teaching trust by being worthy of trust", and demonstrating that worthiness until the horse accepts it as true, should be the FIRST resort. Not the last. It may come down to the WHY: Do you move the horse's feet naturally, to distract him from fixating on his fear, or do you move them to punish the horse? 

B) Moving the feet is often less helpful than simply moving the HORSE. Giving a horse freedom to move, versus directing it to move, can allow a horse to keep himself below the boiling point:








​
I've posted it many times before, but that also provided a key to dealing with a very nervous horse - and it has worked very well with Bandit. And it really is just a variation of what @*mmshiro* said:



> Whenever I would touch the buckles in the front, he'd scurry away. So I made the scary thing less scary by moving my hand near the buckles and retreating...touching the buckles and retreating...wiggling the buckles then retreating, etc....If he won't get near the tarp, start with a handkerchief. ...


 Rather than getting after him because his fears are baseless - which we know, but the horse does not - it is a form of honoring his fears and working to find an area which stretches his trust in us, perhaps, but doesn't break it.

Then trust grows like lifting weights. You start with a weight you can handle, and build up. You don't grab one too heavy and just 'push harder'... And I suspect Clinton Anderson would agree. Maybe he mentions it, in his full length training videos. I don't know. But I know a LOT of people seem very unfamiliar with the concept.

FWIW, as Bandit has gotten better at going across country in the desert, asking him to do so when he gets nervous gives him both breathing room and a natural reason to concentrate on what I am asking of him. We gain some lateral room, which HE understands, while also gaining the benefit of him needing to watch where he puts each foot. It is often a two-fer, now that he is better about watching where we are going.


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## mmshiro

horseluvr2524 said:


> This is why I think it would be a great thing if everyone would at least try liberty with their horse.


I'm lucky that I take lessons at a rather unconventional barn in the sense that the horses are not "lesson" horses. Most are OTTBs, some are rescues. My instructor also offers groundwork lessons, and whenever I work with a new horse, the first half hour or so, before the round pen, is in the arena at liberty, where I can find out whether the horse wants to hang out with me. Once the two of us can jog/trot around the arena side-by-side, I know the horse is ready for some academics with me. 

To get them interested in me, all I do is use a flag on a stick to get their attention. They don't need to "join up" if they don't want to. I don't care if they are on the other side of the arena. All I do is make sure that they pay attention to me with at least one eye (in which case I stop wiggling the flag), and giving me two eyes gets the most release (I back away from them). Sooner or later they figure out that hanging out with me is the best option because (a) I'm not dangerous, (b) they don't have to be by themselves, and (c) when they do come to "join up" they get some love from me. (No bribing with food, though.)

When I show up in the pasture at that farm, there isn't one horse that doesn't at least say, "Hi!", let alone getting out of Dodge.


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

I disagree with CA as far as continuing to do those tight circles. That's enough to drive any horse mad! But in regards to the one rein stop, until a rider learns enough to know how to read their horse, it is a good thing to teach. It is often a viable, safe way for someone who may be a bit out of their depth to diffuse the situation. I agree that it never (or at least, almost never) works for those very hot horses. But most beginners won't be riding a Mia, or Halla, or Amore, etc. etc.

Sometimes a one rein stop did work for me. Other times, it was the worst possible thing to do. It comes back again to reading the horse and the situation. For example, Shan is very tricky. Forcing her to move past something when she wasn't ready would make her liable to blow up on you. Often, letting her stop and have a good look was more productive as she would move on. But sometimes, she would be in a certain mental state, where if she did stop and look, she would 'freeze' and stare at the scary thing, and absolutely refuse to move. Even a gentle squeeze of your calf while she was in this state would cause her to freak out like a horse of your worst nightmare. And this from a mare who is calm, steady, great with scary things, and excels in obstacle trail classes. Boy am I glad she seems to have outgrown those phases, as they were nerve wracking!

Not sure where I'm going with this... but there it is. I think the point was that sometimes beginners are taught only one way, which is the safest and fastest way to diffuse a situation. Then, as they learn to read a horse and progress, they are either taught or they learn a better way which allows for treating the horse as an individual and as each circumstance calls for, and is therefore better for the horse.


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## gottatrot

Good points by all. 
I agree that the horse may not differentiate between fear and high emotion, but also riders often don't differentiate well between fear and high emotion. So often a horse is blamed for bolting off when the horse is only running excited. An important distinction.

I was given the same answers as @bsms for training horses, and still have people give me that same advice. Make the horse work, teach him who's boss, do more ground work. The great thing about very hot horses is that they show you so quickly what the wrong answer is. Just like with Shan when she gets stuck. Think, "I'm going to push you past this," and put that leg on and watch the horse explode. Wrong answer. 

I agree with @horseluvr2524 that some horses need much more than gentleness. If everything could be fixed with simple kindness, I wouldn't have to have a rule for myself that I draw the line at physical harm. There was a discussion on another thread about dangerous horses, and I found out there are some that do not draw this distinction. But I believe we are humans and smart, and ought to be able to think of ten possible solutions to a problem. We should never have to get to the point of physical harm. We have many resources, including mechanical objects and drugs that we can use if necessary. 

I like the thought of moving the feet versus moving the horse. A horse might still feel trapped with his feet moving if he is forced to be too near the object he is afraid of. 

All horses are different, as many have pointed out. Anymore, I don't have an actual plan when I go to work with a new horse. I wait to see what kind of horse I am dealing with, and that helps me decide what it is we need to work on. There is no plan that works for every horse, and there are not steps or building blocks that create a horse with no "holes" in the training. We can teach them anything we want them to learn, such as wearing a saddle or backing up. But how we get there can happen in a variety of ways. 

In my case, I take information from many different people and agree with much of it, but also disagree with a lot. As I've said, a quote from George Morris helped my riding a lot, but then people say, "You like Morris? I've seen him so heavy handed with horses." It's not that I follow a certain trainer or rider, but rather take some things I can use from many different sources.


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## Hondo

Here's my take on moving a horse's feet to settle him down. Often in the past when one of my kids were upset about something, I'd say "Let's take a walk and talk about it". Something about walking while addressing something tough makes it easier. Maybe that's where golf came from.

If a friend is upset, you don't sit there with them and stew. You go do something. The stew is not ignored necessarily or even shoved back, but the moving makes it easier.

In the past Hondo for one reason or another would become very upset in the 1/3 acre yard galloping from one end to another. I would put a lead on him and just walk the perimeter of the yard, talking to him of course, and pretty soon he'd want to pull off to his feed bin.

Tight circles just to move the feet? Nope. Don't think that works. But moving as above does seem to at times at least.


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## gottatrot

I'm a little "high" tonight. 
I rode Halla on the beach for the first time since her laminitis. We went with Nala, and her rider was willing to go for a short distance and slow, so we wouldn't let Halla do more than she might be able to handle.

So very sad that Littauer thought no horse enjoys being ridden. If I'd only ever ridden Amore, I might have thought that. She doesn't obviously show joy when ridden, and seems to tolerate it. 
But I've been on many horses that enjoy going out, very much. Perhaps they'd be a little happier if we just turned them loose and let them gallop away on their own, true. But every possible way I know how to assess a horse's enjoyment makes me believe that some horses enjoy being ridden. 

I don't think it's being ridden that the horse enjoys, but rather doing the particular type of activity that they appreciate, which happens to involve a rider. 
Halla appreciates going out with Nala, and she loves whatever it is she thinks she is doing _*to*_ Nala, with her body language and movements. 

When I took Halla out and brought her down to get tacked up, she seemed very anticipatory. She was looking at Nala, and getting excited, and both Nala's rider and I could see she was pleased to be finally going out with Nala. It was the same as we rode down to the beach, with Halla taking on her usual leadership role with a little extra vigor. 

On the beach, Halla was excited, but not extremely so. It was more like she remembered the drill, and she was ready and probably thinking we were going on a very long ride. When we turned around so soon (after less than a mile), the horses were fine with it. Nala had been ridden the day before, and Halla probably knew she was out of shape. It wasn't that she wanted to go home, but she was compliant either way. The only part where she got a little too hot was when we went up the last dune. I thought she shouldn't run because she had boots on, and I didn't want her to pull them off. She couldn't handle that, so took several massive leaps. The pads slipped a little, but they were fine enough to ride back home. 

As I've learned before, Renegade boots don't work for serious riding with pads in - the pads slide out. Even when I've glued them in, they only stay put for a ride or two. But a horse in serious riding shouldn't need pads, after all, and Halla felt sound as a dollar so I'll try next ride going barefoot. I'll just lead her until we get down to the soft grass and sand. 

I told Nala's rider that I don't trust Halla to show signs of being "off" in the heat of the moment, so will see how she seems tomorrow, and if all is well I will go a little farther next week. 
Before our ride I trimmed Nala's hooves. She still has some quarter cracks from when she did not have good nutriton or hoof care, but overall her hooves are great for a TB. Amazing concavity, and no run forward toes. She's gained a little weight too, after a month's worth of SmartDigest Ultra. I'd given her the Pennwoods BodyBuilder 4000 that Halla wouldn't touch, but Nala won't eat it either. She also doesn't like beet pulp. 
We are now on the hunt for a skinny horse we can give the Pennwoods to. All the ones at our barn are fat, except Halla and Nala.


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## gottatrot

Forgot to mention something that amused me today.
When I was trimming Nala's hooves, her owner was telling me how the vet that did her pre-purchase exam had said she had really good hooves for a TB. What was funny was that the vet also pointed out that Nala's temperament was very hot, and basically was trying to steer her away from purchasing her. 
He was happy with everything about her physically, but didn't care for her mentally.

We love Nala, and I don't think her owner could have found a better horse for the kind of riding she is doing right now. 

I noticed how much better behaved Nala was from the last time I'd trimmed her hooves, sometime last year. She only kicked at me once or twice, and I was actually able to hold her hooves for extended periods of time while filing. She never actually tries to kick the trimmer, but rather gets her feet discombobulated so she has trouble balancing, and then she sort of kicks to get free. It is so benign that I ignore it, especially because she's never landed a hoof on me so obviously isn't trying to, and also ignoring it has improved it drastically. She's one that gets very calm if you are calm, so I just move around a little with her and her whole trim took only about 20 minutes. 

Her owner has been trimming her over the winter, but the hooves had grown a little faster than usual and she wasn't sure how to deal with the uneven growth areas. The person who trimmed Nala last summer always corrects every movement she doesn't like. But I notice that her behavior has improved much more after having her owner who is less uptight trimming her.


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## Hondo

I was told early on by a non-horse person that I'd learn that what a horse really wanted was to be back home munching on hay.

I too have concluded this is not necessarily always true. I think it just depends so much on what the horse experiences in connection with being ridden.

And horses can be jealous. That sounds sort of like anthropomorphism but they can be I believe. Hondo shows a lot of what I see as possessiveness. And yesterday when I put HIS saddle on Rimmey and just led Rimmey around Hondo went galloping and bucking around us like crazy. I don't know any explanation other than he felt he was being infringed on in some way.

Horses seek and enjoy relationships with and enjoy being with certain other horses and I believe it can be the same with humans.

And Hondo has 60 acres to run around in so it's not like he's getting out of a stall or something.

I've thought a bit about the way he acted and have decided that his saddle is his saddle and will not be placed on another horse.

I even imagined he was giving me the cold shoulder after that while I was hanging around to see if he did anymore coughing.


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## bsms

Littauer eventually concluded horses can enjoy a ride. But he had 25+ years of experience around hundreds of horses when he wrote that no horse enjoyed it. I think that is a terrible indictment of how the Russian Cavalry kept and trained horses under the direction of James Fillis. Particularly when one compares it to the ideas of the Austrian Cavalry officer writing 50-60 years earlier who described how cavalry horses COULD be trained to enjoy being ridden.

I understand it when dealing with work horses. When one buys horses in the tens of thousands, and trains thousands of men to then train and ride them, often in harsh conditions, having contented and happy horses must be a challenge. Still, I've read enough accounts of the US Cavalry to know SOME of their horses and riders took pleasure in working together.

Visiting the sheep ranch last June, the first day's push covered 25-30 miles, mostly on paved roads, in unseasonably hot weather. It could not have been easy for the horses:










But by sunrise the next morning, the sheep were ready to move - and the horses were eager to move out too! As I mounted up, one of the sons commented, "_He doesn't like to be held back by the bit. You might want to walk him back and forth over here. He's ready to get going, but you'll have trouble calming him enough to keep him just standing still._" The horse was half-Arabian, and I had enough experience with Mia that I would have done it anyways...but yeah, after nearly 30 miles of hot pavement the previous day, the horse was ready to get going again.

Extrapolating from Mia & Bandit, I think some horses view themselves as protectors of mindless creatures (to Bandit, Trooper and even Cowboy qualify). I think some horses feel a responsibility to take care of a herd, even if it is a herd of sheep. Trooper would not. Trooper, in the same situation, would stand still without complaint and move out without complaint, but he wouldn't have acted excited about moving out again - and Trooper is 3/4 Arabian. OTOH, I think Bandit would feel responsible for the sheep, and believe the mindless creatures needed HIM - not ME, but HIM - to take care of them. I'm pretty sure he would have been ready to go too.

I think many horses, like the Austrian Cavalryman said, enjoy showing off their strength and power. I think they enjoy being part of a team. I think a person who gives the horse a feeling of purpose, of trust, and of responsibility makes it possible for the horse to enjoy themselves.

I think Littauer missed that element of riding and training, at least for his first few decades. He certainly never wrote about it in an analyzed, formulaic way - and Littauer, like me, analyzed everything. IIRC, he based his approach to riding on minimizing the discomfort of the horse and making riding the least objectionable way of riding, versus trying to get the horse enthusiastic about being ridden.

He largely based his system of control, from beginner to expert, on the rider's use of the bit: little contact (beginner), frequent or constant contact (intermediate), and 'on the bit' (expert). That is in strong contrast to the typical western approach, which values "off the bit" as a part of good riding. Most books about riding focus on the RIDER - position, cues to use, etc. Very few passages focus on the HORSE. 

:think:​


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## gottatrot

Today I rode Halla out with Nala. 

Nala's rider had her horse saddled before I arrived at the barn, so she went for a brief ride around the property. There was a fallen log in the tall scrub so she jumped it - Nala is a decent jumper. Except apparently they had a bad takeoff so Nala's rider ended up off balance to one side, and said she didn't fall off but did a quick dismount (probably fell off). The stirrup banged her knee, and she said for a minute she thought "I'm hurt." And realized she was way back in the deep bushes where it would take awhile to be found. Of course, she had her cell phone on her. She's telling me this, laughing from atop her horse while she's waiting for me to finish saddling Halla.

At the beach, we did a lovely four mile ride. Some giant truck with huge tires was driving with a Border Collie chasing behind for a bit, and then went crashing into the shallow water. That made an unexpected sound, so Halla thought about leaving the beach for a couple seconds but then changed her mind. The truck stopped to gather the dog, spun a big cookie in the sand and left. I guess trying to keep a Border Collie's energy down can be difficult.

Nala's rider said she keeps going out with people and horses that have never been to the beach, and they are often half mad with fright and the owners even worse. She tells them all that they will get used to it, and we cantered past burned out stumps and flappy plastic today with neither horse doing more than taking a glance at those things. 

We had a long dog chase, in which a dog started following us to the beach and then disappeared back into the neighborhoods with his owner chasing, and then apparently ended up in the bushes where another rider from our barn was riding, kept spooking his horse, and followed him back to the barn. 

So when we got back there was this lost dog running around, and we spent a long time trying to catch the dog and coax him with food, but he would not let us near. Finally we took another dog on a leash and bribed the lost dog into following us back into his home neighborhood, where we found his owner still driving around looking for him. Now tired, he jumped in the car and all was well. 

Right now the rain is absolutely pouring down on the roof, and although we had a nice break this afternoon for our ride, it's been raining like it's still winter. The temperature is better though.

We've been putting pictures from some of our travels on a digital frame so we can keep remembering the interesting places we've been. I can't remember if I've posted this one before, but it's from several years ago when we visited Japan and I was able to ride the very small Dosanko horse which is a native, gaited breed similar to an Icelandic horse. Very feisty little horses, and I'm not good enough with gaits to tell you how it was different from a tolt, but it felt very similar. A lateral, ambling gait that was close to a trot speed.


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking a bit about how I've come to be so contrary minded when it comes to how many people think about dealing with horses, riding and training them. 

It's funny, because I've always started at the place where everyone says you should, and done what most people recommended. It is engrained in me to find out what is recommended, the highest reviewed, the most successful, and I've always used that approach with beginning anything with horses.

What I didn't know starting out with horses is that horses will teach you all about what works and what doesn't. I was thinking about this today when Halla was thinking about leaving the beach. 

After thousands of spooks and frightened reactions from horses, it's almost like I often maintain a mental detachment from the scene. Vroom, vroom, a big truck splashing in the waves. A part of my brain, the part that is in charge of monitoring the overall mood of the horse wonders if my horse will be concerned. This is a small wonder, and the rest of me is unconcerned. 

The thing I've learned with horses is that despite what everyone says about prevention and such, I've found that it's best to deal with things when they happen, as they happen and to not overthink what might happen. Experience is a great teacher. 

What does it matter exactly if I am concerned? I know that if the horse suddenly decides this is Armageddon, I won't be able to change that. No matter what happens, the type of reaction I get will either be within the 99% where I will automatically stay with the horse, or it will be within the 1% I will be helpless to do anything about. I would come off for the 1% regardless of what I do, so what does it matter? Why would I react? It will change nothing.

So the monitoring part of the brain notices that Halla is thinking about leaving the beach. She turns away from the truck to flee, and I let her. There is nothing dangerous this way, a nice dune with deep sand should she happen to go that far. Probably I won't want to go over the top and into the tall brush, but I'll decide that if we get there. No need to worry about that now, we are living in this second and the next. Those decisions are at least ten seconds away. 

But in those two seconds, my horse understands. This is a vehicle. It is splashing in water. That is a dog. I feel the tension begin to leave, so I turn her so we are going back the way we were. We are perhaps ten feet off of our original track, and Nala has stopped to look at the truck, or perhaps to decide where Halla's quickly changing decisions will take her and if she should go along with them. 

I know, because I've done many other different things that this is the right thing to do. I spent ten seconds riding a path away from my chosen path and now we are back. If that truck had contained some sadistic driver that decided to chase after us, growling up the dune, it would have still been OK. Another version of me, a few years ago, would have been quite nervous and panicky thinking about what might happen if this should be the case.

We can ride. The horses will calm down eventually, with enough distance. We won't trap them, we will let them escape, and that will keep their panic down to a level where they won't feel they must leave the burden that is hampering their escape from death behind. 

Instead, they will take us with them. We will direct their speed and route so we can travel safely without breaking horse legs or falling. They will trust us to do this because we are not trying to force them to stare death in the eye, because they are not fighters, they are flight animals. They don't want to stay and fight, they want to stay alive. Their best chance is running. We will work with them. This builds their trust in us, and large flights turn into small flights and tiny flights and mostly no flights at all. After all, we can always run if we need to. 

People say, but what about if this is a narrow trail or the edge of the cliff? The way I see it, no matter what trail you are on there are always at least two ways to go - the way before you or the way you came. It still doesn't matter if the horse moves his feet, as long as you can give input on speed and direction. 

That's why I don't care for all the thinking about pointing the nose here and blocking the body there, etc. I've been in some very bad situations where the horse had not been trained to flee forward and allowed to leave, and those have been where I've been closest to having a bad wreck. 

Forward, to me is the most directable direction when a horse is scared. In the horse's mind, he is leaving the situation. The flight might last two seconds, and then the rider may be directing and fine tuning exactly where that flight ends up on a narrow trail with bushes and rocks all around. But the horse can learn to calm with lightning speed if he knows he can leave. 

Some of those bad situations taught me a whole lot. In one case, I started working a horse to keep his attention on me while a scary truck came closer, and then blocked him from spooking forward which made him panic backward very fast, toward a deep ditch and barbed wire fence. We were within an inch or two by the time I was able to redirect him.

I've had horses I wanted to one rein stop that panicked and spun fast, then reared back and unbalanced. I've had horses that bolted through the one rein stop sideways. 
I do believe a one rein stop will work on horses that tend to be a little calmer and less panicky, and that have it practiced over and over the same way. But I've had horses that were calm and extremely broke and they reacted badly to something. The worst thing I've done is trapped them and stopped their ability to escape.

I've had horses explode into bucking when blocked. I've seen horses that reared and lost their footing when blocked. Blocking a horse is a bad idea, if they are panicking. And some horses go from concern to panic in a very short time. 

That's how I feel about the horse psychology of spooking, and my approach keeps me calm and the horse calm, and we face many things on hot, reactive horses that I've seen lead to bad situations on even calm and non-reactive horses. So I'm sticking with it because it works. We're all alive, and riding and have no restrictions on where we feel our horses can go. :smile:


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## Hondo

I hear a lot now and then about police horses and how they are trained to ride into smoke, around cars, etc. The post above, which is the best I've read for a while, or maybe ever, inspired me for some reason to watch some police horse training videos for the first time.

The one pasted below says that the US's 9 million horses plus are scoured for candidates that show promise of being capable for training for police work.

Out of the few that are selected, only one in ten make it through basic training which is a higher drop out rate than in the Navy Seals.

After all that, the very last words in the video are, "...and build that all important bond between horse and rider."

That really hit me. After that rigorous selection process and highly professional training, the suggestion to me was, much of that was lost without the bond between horse and rider.

I think it may be natural for us humans to notice things we agree with or things that make us "right". Before I knew anything much about horses, my gut feeling was that I needed to bond first. And that's part of why I led Hondo on daily walks for almost three months.

Two people cannot become bonded friends unless they know each other very well. Although the bond is much different in many ways between horse and rider, I think it cannot exist without mutual knowledge and understandings of one another.

And then based on that knowledge, as is said in the previous post, the rider decides what to do as each situation arises.

Another point that the video makes clear is that to just decide to train whatever horse you may have to the level of a police horse is a tragic error.

And lastly, this quote from the above post is a quote among quotes. Best ever. "Blocking a horse is a bad idea."


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...After all that, the very last words in the video are, "...and build that all important bond between horse and rider."
> 
> That really hit me. After that rigorous selection process and highly professional training, the suggestion to me was, much of that was lost without the bond between horse and rider...


I'm not convinced there needs to be a bond between horse and rider. Trooper doesn't LIKE me. Yesterday, walking past the corral after feeding them, I stumbled on a rock. Didn't shout, cuss, or act upset - but Trooper abandoned his food and fled to the far side of the corral. And no, I don't think I've EVER done anything to justify a reaction like that!

But put me on his back, and he rides fine. He may ride better for me than for my daughter, whom he adores. He's steady, cooperative, balanced, forward...an easier ride than Bandit. Vastly easier than Mia. From the ground, though, Mia fled TO me at the first sign of problem and would stick her head against my chest and wait for me to make the bad thing go away.

I think genetics has a lot to do with it. Bandit keeps his head far better than Mia, but he will ALWAYS be a cautious horse. He's the sort who will leave his food in the corral and go stand watch because of...something. And stand there looking intently, for 30+ minutes, as the other two horses then eat his food.

And while I think he gives me more effort than he'd give a lot of others right now, I think he is going to become the sort of horse you can put a newbie on and go out in the desert. As is Cowboy. He may make it - but he'll be sort of a cautious Cowboy, who will sometimes balk to keep him and his rider safe (based off of a false idea of safety, perhaps).

Trooper isn't who he is because of training. He didn't get much training, and certainly no bonding, on the ranch. He was named Trooper because from the beginning, he was 'just a little trooper'. 

I think a bond can develop over time, and is worth having and will get a person more out of a horse than if the bond is not there. But I don't believe it is "all important". I'd bet gottatrot or some of her friends who ride hot horses could not only ride Bandit well, but have him doing better after 30 minutes than I can. I think a lot of riding a nervous horse well comes down to confidence in yourself, confidence in your ability, and knowing how to give the horse an "out" - how to keep them from feeling "trapped". I think THAT is far more important in riding a hot horse than any bond.

BTW - I wouldn't classify Bandit as a "hot horse". Mia was hot. Bandit is cautious, concern, involved - but not hot. Observant, believes in his own judgment - but not hot. Mia could boil over, then stay at 210 degrees for 30 minutes. Or an hour. Once, in an arena, I jumped off her after 2+ hours.

If Bandit boils over, he'll be at 150 degrees in 3 minutes, and down to 105 in 5-10 minutes. You can train him to a so-so level with Clinton Anderson methods, such as WAS used with him.

FWIW, I believe ALL horses can benefit from being trained the way you should train a mule, or an Arabian, or a hot horse. You may be able to get away with using domination techniques, but I think you'll get better results from giving them options, working on mutually acceptable compromises, not trapping them, not mistaking 'standing still' with 'calm', etc. I've ridden some calm lesson quarter horses who within 30 minutes were going, "_You want my opinion? You want to be a team? Me too..._"


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I'm not convinced there needs to be a bond between horse and rider.
> 
> *That flies in the face of some of the most rigorously and professionally trained horses on the planet.*
> 
> Trooper doesn't LIKE me. Yesterday, walking past the corral after feeding them, I stumbled on a rock. Didn't shout, cuss, or act upset - but Trooper abandoned his food and fled to the far side of the corral. And no, I don't think I've EVER done anything to justify a reaction like that!
> 
> *Troopers actions do not sound like a "I don't like you" message. If he didn't like you, he wouldn't like you whether you stumbled or not. Was he ever around in the early days with Mia when you were accepting advice that you later regretted? Did Trooper observe any of that? Do you have any warm and fuzzy feelings toward him? Or do you really dislike him? Horses know those things I've come to believe.*
> 
> But put me on his back, and he rides fine. He may ride better for me than for my daughter, whom he adores. He's steady, cooperative, balanced, forward...an easier ride than Bandit. Vastly easier than Mia.
> 
> *Maybe he knew he was captured and he'd better or else?*
> 
> From the ground, though, Mia fled TO me at the first sign of problem and would stick her head against my chest and wait for me to make the bad thing go away.
> 
> *Do you believe that was due to bonding? Did she do that from the get go? Or could it have been a carry over from her past? *
> 
> I think genetics has a lot to do with it. Bandit keeps his head far better than Mia, but he will ALWAYS be a cautious horse. He's the sort who will leave his food in the corral and go stand watch because of...something. And stand there looking intently, for 30+ minutes, as the other two horses then eat his food.
> 
> *The video clearly indicated that genetics was a huge part of it. Never-the-less they seemed to imply that much of the good genetics would be lost without the bonding between horse and rider.*


Sure, there are I suppose thousands of commercial horses that take a different person trail riding every day.

But for a person's own personal horse and positive experiences with that horse, everything I've seen and experienced convinces me that to not consider bonding as a very very important ingredient between horse and rider is very very wrong headed.


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## gottatrot

Great video, @Hondo. I have a friend who works with dogs that are meant to be police dogs. A lot of them fail out and go to other types of homes, and so do service dogs. 
Innate temperament is so important to understand, and not understanding this is why I ended up with Amore. Everything I'd read and heard made me think that good training would get me a calm horse, so when I bought a horse I didn't assess her innate temperament. I didn't understand that training doesn't make every horse calm, or stable, but rather good training makes a horse calm-ER and MORE stable. 

There is no such thing as calm. I remember going to a psychiatrist with my mother-in-law so we could talk about her mental health. The psychiatrist said that everyone is on a continuum, and there is no certain state that can be called "happy" or "depressed." We can't try to get everyone to the same place on a scale, because everyone's normal is different. My happy might be your depressed or vice versa. So let's say with training we can take every horse five notches closer to calm. For one horse that starts out very calm already, he might be nearly in a coma and we could call him "bomb proof." For another horse, starting out in a near panic state, we might just get down to another horse's excited state. Both horses have improved with training, but one horse will never reach that bomb proof state.

I think having a bond with a horse is one piece of the puzzle in a good partnership. If you want to have everything: the horse's cooperation, confidence, trust, then you will work on having a bond with the horse. It seems to me that a bond comes naturally when you spend enough time with a horse, unless somehow your personalities don't mesh well, and then you may never develop one. 

But I think there is also a reason why just bonding with a horse doesn't translate into trust in the saddle the way many natural horsemanship people believe it does. For example, a friend of mine has a Mustang, and she's had him for several years. She has done countless hours of grooming, round pen work, spent time with him in his field and caring for him, and trailered him to ride new places. She has a wonderful bond with this horse. 

But I know for a fact that a person the horse doesn't really know such as myself could get on and ride the horse and have him be more relaxed and happy going down the beach. We could canter him and take him for quite a ride without having half the troubles she would if she did the same thing. 

That is something she would just need more experience to do. For instance, if the horse bobbles under me on the sand, I'm going to feel if the horse tripped, intentionally avoided a small obstacle such as a stick with one foot, or did a small spook. I'm going to assess quickly if this is not concerning to the horse, mildly concerning or very concerning. But she might take up the reins drastically and make the horse quite concerned.

If the horse takes off in a canter, he might get too exuberant on the first stride, or he might do a little hop or slip a little. I've felt those things many times on other horses, so I will not worry and keep assessing each stride to make sure he's not going to start bucking or bolt off. But she might think he is bucking or that she is going to lose her seat, and take up the reins drastically again, concerning the horse. She also might lose her balance and make the horse lose his, causing more concern. 

Many people do have a bond with their horses on the ground and in the saddle. The horse trusts them in both areas. But the horse might see you as trustworthy and a lovely friend as a handler on the ground, but untrustworthy as a rider that unbalances them and gives confusing signals. 
Or you might be a great rider and they enjoy going out with you, but they don't work well with you on the ground.


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## bsms

"*That flies in the face of some of the most rigorously and professionally trained horses on the planet."*

Matches a lot of ranch horses. Matches why the cops are picky about what horses they take in for training, too. Matches the cavalry's need to be able to swap horses around in combat.

*Maybe he knew he was captured and he'd better or else?

*Perhaps. Although I haven't "or elsed" him in 9 years of owning and daily contact. And the time we (Trooper, his rider, Cowboy & I) were shot at in the desert, he was being ridden by a guy he had never met before that day - and he behaved flawlessly, as did Cowboy.

Don't think that excellent behavior with bullets cutting the grass next to Cowboy and thus near Trooper as well was due to bonding. They are both level-headed horses by nature, and both trained to obey.

My goal with Bandit is not to get excellent behavior from him because he trusts bsms, although that may make a start point. My goal is to get him behaving well for ANY rider, including new riders, because HUMANS are worth it. I think in time he'll be like a taller, slender Cowboy - an excellent ride (if cautious) for ANY rider.

*The video clearly indicated that genetics was a huge part of it. Never-the-less they seemed to imply that much of the good genetics would be lost without the bonding between horse and rider.

*That is what I haven't seen. If a horse is fundamentally a calm, steady horse, and has been trained to work with humans, then I haven't seen any strong correlation between "bond" and "rides well". When my grandson (3) got his first ride recently (with his Mom, my DIL, with him), it was on Cowboy. Not because my DIL has a bond with Cowboy. It was, I think, her third time on him in 3 years. But Cowboy is a level-headed, sensible, trustworthy little horse. Pre-ride:








​ 
If a horse needs a good bond to ride well, I consider that a sign of bad training. Trooper has carried a number of very inexperienced riders for us, several on their first time on a horse. And to be honest, he rides about as well for the first time rider as he does for my daughter. She might get a LITTLE more out of him, but not much.

A hot horse is different, in that a hot horse needs (IMHO) somewhat different techniques and a rider who is genuinely confident in reading and responding to hot horses. But someone who is good with hot horses will, IMHO, do well with a great many hot horses - even on their first ride. For a horse like Bandit, who is a little warm...to be honest, any decent rider who gets on him will be able to ride him as well or better than I can.



gottatrot said:


> ...But I know for a fact that a person the horse doesn't really know such as myself could get on and ride the horse and have him be more relaxed and happy going down the beach. We could canter him and take him for quite a ride without having half the troubles she would if she did the same thing
> 
> ...But the horse might see you as trustworthy and a lovely friend as a handler on the ground, but untrustworthy as a rider that unbalances them and gives confusing signals...


That matches what I've seen. The first part describes what I think would happen if gottatrot rode Bandit, while the second describes me & Mia perfectly - until I genuinely became a better and more experienced rider. The pro who worked with her concluded she was confused because she had never been trained to ride, and we had gone for several years riding on good will alone - which was no match for training.


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## knightrider

I love your discussion about feeling trapped. I think it is time to "trot" out bsms's excellent story about the bullock cart and the horse who had to pass by it every day. I love that story! There is a lot of wisdom in that story, and a lot of bossy riders would benefit from taking that story to heart. Thanks, bsms, for sharing that valuable story!


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## Hondo

The full sentence at the end of the video says the training does two things, becoming accustomed to the sights and sounds and creating the bond. Within the video it was also mentioned that during the training the horse came to trust the rider.

So there is actually three things it sounds like. Developing a horse rider bond, horse rider trust, and desensitizing or habituation to certain things such as dense traffic with sirens.

I have known a few wives, particularly in older times, that had a deep love and devotion to their husbands but did not trust them when driving an automobile in the least. If you were sitting in the back seat listening there could be no doubt about that.

When I first began trying somehow to develop a bond with Hondo, part of that was to cause him to eventually trust that I would never harm him or cause pain to him. And I'm attempting the same with Dragon and Rimmey. The change in Rimmey is astounding.

So bond and trust CAN be separated, but I prefer to work on them as one entity. And in areas I think they certainly are. In terms of choosing the best line on a trail for a horse's hooves, Hondo trusts himself more than I. And he is certainly correct to do so.

When Hondo stops to look at something he perceives as possibly threatening, providing I take a good look at it too, he will usually shrug it off if I do. But there are exceptions. But when he does shrug it off, that makes me happy as I relate it to the lead horse on alert dropping it's head and back to grazing. That is the trust I and I believe the police training is searching for that in part.

But if I didn't have a clue about what was going on with Hondo on the trail, I'm sure Hondo would not respond any better than the lady in your example. Hondo would conclude, Harold has no clue about how to drive. And would be more comfortable with a better driver. (he might anyhow

Bottom line: If two riders are of exactly the same riding knowledge and ability with one rider having a strong bond with the horse and with the other rider a stranger, the rider with the strong bond will recieve better performance out of the horse.

Others may doubt and not be convinced, so be it. But I AM convinced. I BELIEVE it.

My own feelings toward Hondo are such that if he was unable to carry me and there was no other horse to ride, I simply wouldn't ride. I'd lead him or what ever. As long as he is alive and I'm able, I will care for him. Now I am pretty certain his bonding towards me does not go nearly that far, but at some level I believe he does sense my feelings and that it does affect his behavior.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> If a horse needs a good bond to ride well, I consider that a sign of bad training.



Are you saying that a horse with good training should be able to be swapped around from rider to rider, state to state, or nation, and just go along being the same horse?

I think there is training that can probably do that, but I personally would not refer to it as good training.

There is a horse on this ranch that is considered to be the most obedient horse on the ranch when under saddle. I'm very sad when I see him knowing what he's been through. He trusts no one and the only thing he bonds with is a newborn baby horse, and he is a gelding.

(the horse mentioned is not a horse from this ranch but a neighboring ranch. this ranch took him in for retirement partly because they felt sad for him)

BTW, when I spoke of the huge change in Rimmey, he was first owned by the same guy that had the "well trained horse". Rimmey is trusting me some but it is a fine line. Don't know if he will ever be able to truly bond.


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## knightrider

Took me a bit to find it. Feeling trapped:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/6510/e9fvjC.jpg


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## Hondo

I really like the bullock cart story also. In fact I bought the book it was in when bsms first posted it. Certainly supports gottatrot's notion about not trapping a horse.

We once had a parakeet that would occasionally escape from his cage. Usually out for several days before we could get him back in. Had to be careful that he didn't escape to the outdoors. In trying to get him back into the cage we lef the door open. And then we finally just left it open all the time. That bird spent more time in the cage with the door open that he did when we tried to keep him in with the door closed. Or at least so it seemed as he was almost always in his cage. And with the door standing wide open.

I was going to mention about Amore. People and horses have different skills but not necessarily different values. It is sad for me to think of gottatrot never owning Amore. And what could have happened to her.

@gottatrot I'm so happy that you did not know enough to be shopping for genetic brains. And if Amore could understand the details of it, I know she'd be happy also.

I loved the story about her spooking at the puddle at the end of the arena.


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## gottatrot

I'm glad I didn't know enough to shop for a calm horse also. Otherwise I wouldn't be having such adventures and learning so much. The best teachers are the most difficult horses, for sure. Plus those who can't see the comedy in a silly, spooky horse are really missing out. Amore is a riot.



bsms said:


> If a horse needs a good bond to ride well, I consider that a sign of bad training.


I have to think about this one for awhile...
Maybe the definition of a bond is one thing that can be elusive. 
Trust can be something quite related to a horse's innate temperament, and also to how the horse has been treated in the past. A horse that has been raised and trained well and has a calm temperament might be extremely trusting of anyone, and believe that any human will not harm him. That is not a bond, because he will feel that way even with strangers.

If a horse needs a good bond to ride well, it might be that he has difficulty trusting a new human because of bad experiences he's had in the past. So in a way, yes that is a sign of bad training in the past, but he may have had good training to replace the bad training, yet is still not ready to assume each new human will treat him well. He may mistrust until you prove to him that you will treat him well. But usually you can prove this to a horse far before you could develop a meaningful bond, often in a ride or two. 



> *@Hondo* - Bottom line: If two riders are of exactly the same riding knowledge and ability with one rider having a strong bond with the horse and with the other rider a stranger, the rider with the strong bond will recieve better performance out of the horse.


I believe this is true. But what is that bond? It seems to be a relationship that is built over time. But it is based on how you treat the horse, how fair you are and consistent. If I get on Nala, we have to learn each other. I have to find out how she responds to different cues, how light or heavy I need to make them, how much freedom I can give her before she takes advantage. She has worked this out with her own rider, and they know each other very well. Miles of riding creates this. Is it a bond? I think so, and I don't think anyone can get on Halla and just figure out in five minutes what it has taken many rides for me to learn. 
But Halla is not going to resent you if you don't cue her right. Rather, she will be looking for ways she can take advantage of what you don't know about her. Nala, in my experience will get a little nervous if you cue her wrong, but will keep trying for you. 

This kind of bond is not really based on emotion, but rather it is like working closely with someone for awhile and knowing their strengths and weaknesses and how you work together. You can get to be such a team that things become effortless, almost like reading each others' minds because you know what their responses will be consistently. Yet working like this as a team can create good, shared emotions in both horse and rider so you enjoy working together. That seems to be a bond to me. Trust is part of it, but like I said, some horses trust much earlier and before any bond or partnership has formed.

I guess I see it as something that builds over time. You get to know the horse, they know you, this leads to trust, which leads to shared good experiences, which builds more trust, which forms a bond. The horse might work well enough either way, but you'll never get to the "magic" without a bond. But some horses never work particularly well even with the best bond, and might always have quirks that are troublesome, so I don't think a bond is a guarantee of good behavior, or a reliably good mount either. Maybe for the rider, having a bond helps you forgive the quirks and keep seeing the good qualities of your horse.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My definition of “bond” is opening lines of two way communication. This means:

The horse knows the boundaries and expectations you have of good behavior

Understands the cues you use to communicate; there is an expectation of some consistency of action from human to horse and horse to human.

You can quickly read his/her individual brand of body language such as when something is making them excited, annoyed, uncomfortable, relaxed, pleasure.

It means both of you can accurately understand what the other is saying.

Once the lines of communication are flowing both directions, then you begin to work on trust which ebbs and flows and takes more time; perhaps a lifetime.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My definition of “bond” is opening lines of two way communication.


I think of a bond as more of an attachment with at least some level of emotional attachment to it. To me, there could be no bond with total emotional detachment. Horses may not have much of that but they do seem to have some. There are two mares on the ranch that have two adult off springs each. They all graze together and travel together within the herd. Some might want to call it behavior based on habit but I do not.

In terms of say, marriage counseling, opening up and strengthening two way communication can increase and strengthen a bond, and perhaps even prevent the disintegration of the bond, but I do not think of the bond as being built out of the detached communication.


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## Hondo

Still cogitating about the video.........

I have the impression that the police person and the horse are assigned together as a unit. That not just any police person rides the horse, but just that one policeman that went through training with the horse.

If having the same rider was not of importance in the performance of the horse, why would they do that? It would be much more convienient to be able to assign any policeman to any horse on any given day.

And it would not seem that these horses are the result of "bad" training.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Trust can be something quite related to a horse's innate temperament, and also to how the horse has been treated in the past. A horse that has been raised and trained well and has a calm temperament might be extremely trusting of anyone, and believe that any human will not harm him. That is not a bond, because he will feel that way even with strangers.
> 
> If a horse needs a good bond to ride well, it might be that he has difficulty trusting a new human because of bad experiences he's had in the past. So in a way, yes that is a sign of bad training in the past, but he may have had good training to replace the bad training, yet is still not ready to assume each new human will treat him well. He may mistrust until you prove to him that you will treat him well. But usually you can prove this to a horse far before you could develop a meaningful bond, often in a ride or two...


I think this is correct. It matches what I've seen, at least.

Trooper came here looking like this, after being spurred and ridden very hard while loaned to a ranch. They were told not to use him for cutting cattle, and they decided they knew better and would force him to anyways:








​ 
When he arrived, you couldn't even walk up to him wearing a cowboy hat. He literally broke through our corral panels, sending 3 of them (each 12' long) flying - all to escape the evil cowboy hats that had hurt him.

The lady in the picture is the one who later worked with Mia, and it took her 5 weeks of daily work to get Trooper rideable. I actually rode him a lot after that, for months, as he calmed down.

My daughter says it isn't ME he reacts to, but ANY male who moves directly and makes noise. I just notice it because I'm the only male he is around regularly - but after NINE years, I'm fed up with trying to be nice. After 9 years, I don't care if he gets intimidated by me. If he hasn't gotten over it by now, then HE can deal with it.

But once a guy gets on him, and starts riding, it is different. Once on his back, he seems to settle. He'll tense up quick if the rider yells or uses much leg. But I don't actually yell much when riding, and don't use much leg, so we then get along fine. He's tense with me for maybe 5 minutes, then settles. If anything, he may act MORE confident with me as a rider because he knows I'll make some of the decisions and won't space out the way my daughter does.

But there is no bond of the sort people talk about in NH. He doesn't follow me around like a puppy. He'd RATHER keep a good distance between him and me! When trouble arises, he looks to BANDIT for decisions, both in the corral and out on the trail. Some of that may bleed over to me, since I'm invariably on Bandit when out riding. But if I died today near the corral, Trooper sure wouldn't miss me!

Mia was always going to be a challenging ride for anyone who hadn't learned to involve a horse in the decision-making. What took me YEARS to figure out with her, and no instructor or trainer ever suggested, was the concept of MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE COMPROMISE, and giving her an out. Not always the "out" she would put #1 on her list, but never trapping her in a fence built entirely by me. Some of the people on HF were important because they are the only ones I see writing regularly about using freedom to attain some level of control.

Learning to tell the horse, "Options A & B are unacceptable to me. Can you suggest a C? And have you considered D?" has been critical to me. It is a huge part of what I consider to be "good riding" - but very few people discuss it. Almost nowhere outside of HF, from what I've seen.

Very few people discuss getting a horse to go by something that causes concern using a slack rein. Bandit has now reached a point where I can get him to go past things without too much concern on a tighter rein, and Bandit may be as 'nervous' a horse as most people ever experience. But he isn't actually what I would call a nervous horse, and certainly not a "hot" horse...just cautious, prudent and observant.

Still, the BEST way to teach Bandit calmness and confidence is to CALM him past things rather than PUSH him past things. It is only my impatience and pride that lead me to pushing him past some thing. 

There is, however, some judgment called for, because he sometimes is not afraid at all and just...I don't know. He'll sometimes get a little balky, you can urge him past it with a little contact and leg squeezes, and he'll give the stink eye going past - but not tense up. Not really. It is quite different from what we used to experience all the time.

And maybe that is where 2 years of riding have created some trust in my judgment, so he CAN stay calmer while being pushed. Is that a "bond"? Or have his experiences riding here given him more confidence in BOTH his rider and HIS ability to deal with things? My reading of it is that HE is more confident in HIS abilities, and therefor doesn't tense up as much inside.

Perhaps the time I spent explaining WHY it was was safe built his confidence in MY judgment, and further experience (and being made a part of the decision-making process) has given him some confidence in HIS abilities.

Just read this while working on my reply:



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My definition of “bond” is opening lines of two way communication...
> 
> It means both of you can accurately understand what the other is saying.
> 
> Once the lines of communication are flowing both directions, then you begin to work on trust which ebbs and flows and takes more time; perhaps a lifetime.


That may be what I'm struggling both to understand and to say, except I view a "bond" as what exists after the trust is there. I think the two way communication, and allowing a horse to be part of the decision-making, and teaching the horse you won't let him get overwhelmed, and that you will always leave him an out...I think that teaches trust, and that trust is what I would call bonding.

Inserting this after posting my reply:



Hondo said:


> Still cogitating about the video...If having the same rider was not of importance in the performance of the horse, why would they do that?...


I also think "bonding" is partially just a matching of personalities. My personality - pig-headed, loud, quick-tempered but calms fast - is one Trooper genuinely dislikes. But Bandit could be described as "pig-headed, loud, quick-tempered but calms fast" - *so we understand each other better than Trooper will EVER understand me*. I don't get upset if Bandit tosses in a couple of crow-hopping, "Can you hear me NOW?" mini-bucks. And he doesn't get upset with me if I tighten the reins and yell, "_Oh, COME ON! You sure as [expletive deleted] can!_"

BTW - my youngest says Bandit is more affectionate than I give him credit for being. She says he just expresses it differently than Mia. She's not the best rider, but she often has a good feel for what goes on inside the horse. But if I hadn't owned Mia, I would have had no idea how to get Bandit more confident and trusting. I would describe what I've done with Bandit as "good training", though, and not "bonding".

Bandit and Mia are not everyone's taste in horses, but they are mine. Trooper bores me as a riding horse, but many would greatly prefer him to Bandit, let alone Mia. In flying two seat fighters, we flew many sorties with whoever was available, but also had formed crews as part of our combat plans. We were expected to be able to fly with anyone, but certain mixes of pilot and WSO just worked easier.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I think of a bond as more of an attachment with at least some level of emotional attachment to it. To me, there could be no bond with total emotional detachment. Horses may not have much of that but they do seem to have some. There are two mares on the ranch that have two adult off springs each. They all graze together and travel together within the herd. Some might want to call it behavior based on habit but I do not.
> 
> In terms of say, marriage counseling, opening up and strengthening two way communication can increase and strengthen a bond, and perhaps even prevent the disintegration of the bond, but I do not think of the bond as being built out of the detached communication.



We might be talking about the same things here Hondo. You are looking at it from the perspective of “emotion” as a human and I am looking at it from the perspective of the horse. 

All of the things I mentioned above provide the horse with the one thing it wants most…safety. That might not bring about a human recognized emotion for us but, for the horse I think it is such a basic need that it does.

It is akin to what you see in natural horsemanship where the horse will do what is loosely termed "join up".


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> Are you saying that a horse with good training should be able to be swapped around from rider to rider, state to state, or nation, and just go along being the same horse?...


On the very first ride? Maybe not. Bandit might be a handful for gottatrot for a run along the beach. Not a lot of waves where he grew up, nor here. But it wouldn't take long - maybe a few led walks along the beach, then a couple of rides - and then gottatrot would probably find Bandit an easy ride. In Oregon, along the beach, going for a run. Maybe even boring for her. TOO easy a ride.

And part of that easy transition would be rooted in the work I've done with Bandit. Not our personal bond, but his training. Combined with her experience, it would go quickly.


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## gottatrot

Whether we're talking about a bond of emotion or trust, I think a police horse and rider will work together much better if they know each other and get along, and have some history together so each knows what the other's responses will be to situations.

I agree that communication must be a huge part of bonding. Even if I don't have time to form a close bond with horses I only ride on occasion, I still get a feeling of being partners, working together and communicating. Over time, that is something to really build on.

The very few horses I've felt I disliked riding were ones that felt closed off and would not communicate with me for whatever reason. Even if a horse communicates displeasure, that is something to puzzle out and work with. A horse that doesn't communicate at all is closed off to you. 

It's sad about Trooper, that after all this time he can't completely trust a man because of his history. That is why I protest so often when people advocate forcing a horse through things, because it can be scarring and some horses are not able to completely recover from it.

I think as @Reiningcatsanddogs says, trust comes from the horse feeling safe. And that safe feeling makes the horse relax and have positive emotions toward us. If horse for some reason can never feel completely safe, he might not develop those positive emotions and be able to bond. 

For the human, where does the strong bond come with toward the horse? I was wondering about this, because it doesn't seem to come from safety or reliability on the horse's part, in my case. I don't think for Bsms or Hondo either, because Mia and Hondo were/are favorites and neither is a very reliably solid and predictable horse. 

Yet for me, it is not about some excitement factor or anything like that, because reading the description of Bandit and imagining getting him used to the beach, and thinking of how he'd probably settle well into long endurance miles, I know that even if he became a super steady horse and very calm, I'd appreciate him very much. I will form a bond with any good horse, calm or flighty, and think them the best in the world. 

So I think it is about communication for me, because I think I can bond well with any horse that will dialog with me, and sometimes breaking through and getting the trust of a horse that is wary of communicating with a human because of past experiences is very rewarding. Even if it takes a long time and a lot of effort. 

It does seem easier to me to communicate with a horse that shouts loudly because no one hears him vs. a horse that doesn't say anything at all. Those are the hardest to get to. 
When I've failed, having only a short time with the horse, I've tended to give up and not care much for working with the horse, even though it is not the horse's fault.


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## Fimargue

@egrogan - You have a very good taste :wink:

*Jealousy in horses and bonding*

My mare is good at showing jealousy - she doesn't like if she doesn't get the last goodbye scratch. The ears go back, sometimes she takes it on the other horses, throwing her head at them (rarely). If I pay attention to another horse last time before leaving, she will walk after me, and once she even trotted to catch me up because one other mare followed me when I left.

It took a long time for us to start bonding, nearly 8 months. I remember the day when the feeling changed and she opened up to me. Now I would describe us being as one most of the time. We are very in tune with each other and know each other well.

When I got Talila, she didn't like to be touched anywhere and hated being touched in the head, she would throw her head in the air on several occasions. Fast forward months and she would go to say hello to my friend's daughter, who was with me in the field, and allow her to touch her nose. She is very far from being that anxious and flighty mare. 

She has never been the puppy dog type - I generally don't even bond with horses like that because I have often found a deeper connection with the more aloof ones, I have found them to become _my friend exclusively_. Also in my experience the more friendly ones are usually more confident and "loud", and more likely to throw a hissy fit. I rather deal with a flight than fight personally, and probably thus bond well with more "hotter", but willing types and breeds. 

I think horses choose their person. I get this certain feeling of energy from horses who I think can and want to be my friend. 

We once went to see horses with my friend, and there was one leopard Appaloosa type mare in the field that came close to my friend to be loved on, she had a broken head collar on and apparently they had difficulty to deal with her. My friend decided to buy her. I like that horse, she wants to a be a friend and can stay with you for a long time to be loved on, but she is ah so sensitive sometimes. She can be back and head shy and they had great difficulty to pick up her feet. I picked up her feet fine when I tried it the first time - she did spin around first, being sensitive about the back feet, but didn't kick or anything after I held them. We think she has been started badly.

To me bonding comes from facing challenges together. Trust comes from the feeling of safety - showing that you make good decisions as a leader and can keep the horse safe. For me it's also being able to trust the horse to (at least try) take care of me as well if things go pear shaped.


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> I've been thinking a bit about how I've come to be so contrary minded when it comes to how many people think about dealing with horses, riding and training them.
> 
> It's funny, because I've always started at the place where everyone says you should, and done what most people recommended. It is engrained in me to find out what is recommended, the highest reviewed, the most successful, and I've always used that approach with beginning anything with horses.
> 
> What I didn't know starting out with horses is that horses will teach you all about what works and what doesn't. I was thinking about this today when Halla was thinking about leaving the beach.
> 
> After thousands of spooks and frightened reactions from horses, it's almost like I often maintain a mental detachment from the scene. Vroom, vroom, a big truck splashing in the waves. A part of my brain, the part that is in charge of monitoring the overall mood of the horse wonders if my horse will be concerned. This is a small wonder, and the rest of me is unconcerned.
> 
> The thing I've learned with horses is that despite what everyone says about prevention and such, I've found that it's best to deal with things when they happen, as they happen and to not overthink what might happen. Experience is a great teacher.
> 
> What does it matter exactly if I am concerned? I know that if the horse suddenly decides this is Armageddon, I won't be able to change that. No matter what happens, the type of reaction I get will either be within the 99% where I will automatically stay with the horse, or it will be within the 1% I will be helpless to do anything about. I would come off for the 1% regardless of what I do, so what does it matter? Why would I react? It will change nothing.
> 
> So the monitoring part of the brain notices that Halla is thinking about leaving the beach. She turns away from the truck to flee, and I let her. There is nothing dangerous this way, a nice dune with deep sand should she happen to go that far. Probably I won't want to go over the top and into the tall brush, but I'll decide that if we get there. No need to worry about that now, we are living in this second and the next. Those decisions are at least ten seconds away.
> 
> But in those two seconds, my horse understands. This is a vehicle. It is splashing in water. That is a dog. I feel the tension begin to leave, so I turn her so we are going back the way we were. We are perhaps ten feet off of our original track, and Nala has stopped to look at the truck, or perhaps to decide where Halla's quickly changing decisions will take her and if she should go along with them.
> 
> I know, because I've done many other different things that this is the right thing to do. I spent ten seconds riding a path away from my chosen path and now we are back. If that truck had contained some sadistic driver that decided to chase after us, growling up the dune, it would have still been OK. Another version of me, a few years ago, would have been quite nervous and panicky thinking about what might happen if this should be the case.
> 
> We can ride. The horses will calm down eventually, with enough distance. We won't trap them, we will let them escape, and that will keep their panic down to a level where they won't feel they must leave the burden that is hampering their escape from death behind.
> 
> Instead, they will take us with them. We will direct their speed and route so we can travel safely without breaking horse legs or falling. They will trust us to do this because we are not trying to force them to stare death in the eye, because they are not fighters, they are flight animals. They don't want to stay and fight, they want to stay alive. Their best chance is running. We will work with them. This builds their trust in us, and large flights turn into small flights and tiny flights and mostly no flights at all. After all, we can always run if we need to.
> 
> People say, but what about if this is a narrow trail or the edge of the cliff? The way I see it, no matter what trail you are on there are always at least two ways to go - the way before you or the way you came. It still doesn't matter if the horse moves his feet, as long as you can give input on speed and direction.
> 
> That's why I don't care for all the thinking about pointing the nose here and blocking the body there, etc. I've been in some very bad situations where the horse had not been trained to flee forward and allowed to leave, and those have been where I've been closest to having a bad wreck.
> 
> Forward, to me is the most directable direction when a horse is scared. In the horse's mind, he is leaving the situation. The flight might last two seconds, and then the rider may be directing and fine tuning exactly where that flight ends up on a narrow trail with bushes and rocks all around. But the horse can learn to calm with lightning speed if he knows he can leave.
> 
> Some of those bad situations taught me a whole lot. In one case, I started working a horse to keep his attention on me while a scary truck came closer, and then blocked him from spooking forward which made him panic backward very fast, toward a deep ditch and barbed wire fence. We were within an inch or two by the time I was able to redirect him.
> 
> I've had horses I wanted to one rein stop that panicked and spun fast, then reared back and unbalanced. I've had horses that bolted through the one rein stop sideways.
> I do believe a one rein stop will work on horses that tend to be a little calmer and less panicky, and that have it practiced over and over the same way. But I've had horses that were calm and extremely broke and they reacted badly to something. The worst thing I've done is trapped them and stopped their ability to escape.
> 
> I've had horses explode into bucking when blocked. I've seen horses that reared and lost their footing when blocked. Blocking a horse is a bad idea, if they are panicking. And some horses go from concern to panic in a very short time.
> 
> That's how I feel about the horse psychology of spooking, and my approach keeps me calm and the horse calm, and we face many things on hot, reactive horses that I've seen lead to bad situations on even calm and non-reactive horses. So I'm sticking with it because it works. We're all alive, and riding and have no restrictions on where we feel our horses can go. :smile:


You and me think a like. I like to avoid a fight anytime possible and have found going forward being a much better solution than dealing with the outcome that comes when you try to block a panic stricken horse. Finally the moment of flight might not even last long, or the reaction will get smaller when the horse knows they have a choice. Like you described what happened with Halla.


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## Hondo

Hondo is always given attention both first and then last for the same reasons. And when I was worried about the lumps on his tummy and tried the saddle on another horse and led it around, Hondo absolutely freaked out. I swore I'd never put HIS saddle on another horse in his presence.

I relate to your comment that bonding comes from facing challenges together. After a particularly challenging ride Hondo seems to hang around closer to me for a time. People that survive airplane crashes that are only rescued after days or some other circumstances often result in a life long bond.

There just seems to be something in the social structure of horses that overlaps our own and that may be a big reason for the historical association between horses and people.


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## bsms

FWIW, we used to joke in the military that bonding came from shared misery...:think:


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## horseluvr2524

Skimmed some of the posts, the conversation is on bond now I see. I've been very busy with work so have not been on HF.

I've got a little story, happened last night, that pertains to bond. I'm curious to see how the rest of you interpret it, so I won't tell it with bias.

Last night, DH and I were out giving the daily supplement feed and doing barn chores. I finished everything, but DH was still filling waters. The two mares were standing outside the aisleway (which I block off with a rope) waiting to be let in for their dinner. I decided on a whim to go jump on Shan bareback (no halter, no lead rope, nothing) and just sit there, and we could all wait for DH to finish together. Though I haven't done this often in the past year, it is something I have done frequently in the past and Shan is familiar and comfortable with it.

Shan waited patiently while I grabbed a good chunk of mane and vaulted on somewhat awkwardly. I figured we were all just going to stand there. Nope! Both mares promptly turned around and started walking out into the back area, into complete darkness. I jumped off, not keen on being taken on a bareback and bridleless romp through the darkness. DH started cracking up at this point, because as I came walking back, both mares followed me. He said: "Look, she's sad! She's like 'why did you get off?' She wants to take you on an adventure." lol. Maybe another time.

My interpretation of this is they wanted to take me for a ride and show me 'their world'. Or perhaps they thought that since I jumped on Shan, we were all supposed to go for a ride now.
@gottatrot I was curious to find out how Halla is doing. Have you received the Source smartpak yet?


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> My interpretation of this is they wanted to take me for a ride and show me 'their world'. Or perhaps they thought that since I jumped on Shan, we were all supposed to go for a ride now.
> 
> @gottatrot I was curious to find out how Halla is doing. Have you received the Source smartpak yet?


I think you're right, when you show up and hop on your horses think there is going to be an adventure. Seems like a good sign that they are enjoying what you do with them and find it interesting.

I didn't get the Source added in time so it will come with the next Smartpak shipment in a couple of weeks. I'm also very interested in trying it. I've done some little tweaking with Halla's diet and her weight still seems fine even with some added exercise. The day after I took her to the beach this last week, her hooves felt cool and she was moving very well. I think I'm having more trouble adapting to riding again than she is. 
She's eating her hay very well, getting in about 12 lbs plus grazing all day. Also 1/2 lb beet pulp, 1/2 cup Cocosoya oil, 2 lbs hay/flax/beetpulp pellets, and I have added 1 lb Ultium. I stopped the Equishure, have kept giving Probiotics, Multivitamin, and Vitamin E. I am figuring that the Ultium has a very small percentage of grain, so a small percentage of 1 lb, shouldn't be enough to change the gut PH. 

I've been looking into and reading lots about all the possible kinds of gut supplements you can use. There are some extremely expensive ones and many that have no research behind them whatsoever. There is quite a lot of logical theory and research behind probiotics, prebiotics and digestive enzymes, so I decided Halla doesn't need the acid buffer by now (Equishure) and am going to change her over from that + Probiotics to SmartDigest Ultra, which has all three. I also found a slightly cheaper alternative for the joint supplement I was giving Amore, so I can put Halla on that too. I took her off the expensive one when I ended up having a lot of other medications and such to buy since it seems mainly preventative for her. But I want her on it, ideally, so am glad to add it back again. There must be some joint/cartilage issues even if they are not noticeable to me yet, since she's 21. 

Someday I'll have a young horse and will be amazed at how cheap it is to feed and not have all the old horse medications and supplements to give. 
Who am I kidding? I'll probably feel obligated to rescue some crippled up one-eyed horse with three legs next.


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## Dragoon

gottatrot said:


> Who am I kidding? I'll probably feel obligated to rescue some crippled up one-eyed horse with three legs next.


So much more rewarding, to work with an older horse, and know that you alone are the reason they look\feel\behave better. :mrgreen:


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> Someday I'll have a young horse and will be amazed at how cheap it is to feed and not have all the old horse medications and supplements to give.
> Who am I kidding? I'll probably feel obligated to rescue some crippled up one-eyed horse with three legs next.


 :rofl:

Probably!

Last week, I rescued a baby bird. I believe he was orphaned, or the parents were eaten. I was at the barn and came walking back out of the tack room (I had only been gone a second) when I noticed a little pink thing flopping around on the ground. The poor little guy fell right from the roof, and he was only about a week old and didn't even have feathers yet. I was shocked he didn't break his tiny little neck on the fall onto blacktop. I tried to find his nest, but could not, so I had no choice but to take him home. I found out he was a house sparrow (one of the few wild birds not native to the USA and that are legal to keep. I was tempted!) and fed him boiled egg and soaked cat food the rest of the day until we delivered him to the wildlife rescue center the next morning.
A day or two later, we found another baby the same age fallen in the same spot, but this one was dead. I think that baby I found alive was the last one out of his clutch. My guess is that the other ones died of starvation when their parents were killed.
I was very tempted to keep him, when I found out it was not illegal to do so... but with our business just getting off the ground I simply don't have time to be stopping every half hour to feed the little guy. I wouldn't have been able to go anywhere! I also was nervous about being able to correctly rehabilitate him for the wild, when that time came. DH was sad I delivered him to the wildlife center, but I was like 'you're not the one feeding him every half hour!' lol. And he wouldn't let me keep one of the baby garden snakes back in Cleveland, but the little bird is a different story *shakes head*

Anyway, all that for this picture :grin:


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## gottatrot

Aww, I hope your little bird does well at the wildlife center.

We have a vet boarding at my barn, and she is also the vet for the wildlife center. Every year the barn swallows nest in the horse shelters. She told me they are amazing birds, because they migrate to South America each year and then return to their same nest in the spring. But they invariably lay too many eggs, and if they all hatch some of the babies don't fit in the nest! So we find some of the babies that get pushed out as they grow, and if we get them soon enough we give them to her so she can save them. 
It's sad though, sometimes they fall out when we're not there and don't make it.


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## horseluvr2524

I have found two dead baby birds this year so far, so I was very excited when I found one alive. The reason I think that the parents died is because DH kept talking about this terrible smell right in that same area. A few days later, that little guy showed up. He's definitely a mystery baby. I climbed up to tap around the nests in the roof to see if I could elicit any noise or activity. Nothing! That's why I was surprised to find one of the little guys siblings dead a couple days later.


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## gottatrot

Hoof trimming day today. 
Of course the goats got trimmed too...once I caught them. They have names like Daisy and Buttercup or something like that, but I forget them so call them Pinkie and Greenie because of the color of their collars. Pinkie is super hard to catch. As soon as I'm done trimming, they are all over me. But I got some sprinting in as I wondered how a fat little goat could run so fast. She is too cagey to corner, but I always catch her in the end.








Amore is almost out of her winter coat, pretty good for a 26 year old with Cushing's...but it does take a lot of work with curries and grooming blocks.








This close front hoof is her club hoof I've rehabbed as well as I can, which has made her stand and move better and I believe it's helped her musculoskeletal balance a lot. She's always had decent little hooves despite the club hoof and Cushing's.









Halla grows the most amazing bars on her hinds. They stand up off the sole like this just 4 weeks after the last trim - and I always bring them down flat to the sole. 








I didn't trim Halla's fronts more than a fraction - just rounded off the walls at bit at the toe and took a smidge off the heels.
















I think she's looking pretty good.


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## horseluvr2524

Halla looks so much healthier. She doesn't have that weird tummy tuck she had when she was on the oats.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, I never felt that I had the knowledge to contribute to the discussions on laminitis, but when I saw this article today, I thought it could be of interest: https://www.paulickreport.com/horse...carbohydrate-induced-laminitis-shows-promise/


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> @*gottatrot*, I never felt that I had the knowledge to contribute to the discussions on laminitis, but when I saw this article today, I thought it could be of interest: https://www.paulickreport.com/horse...carbohydrate-induced-laminitis-shows-promise/


Very interesting, sounds hopeful for the future!

Today the temperature was in the 60s. Since Halla's hooves were cool and she showed no issues after our last beach ride last week, today we went farther and also I let her do some cantering. Didn't have a ton of choice, actually, because she was begging to get moving. My partners assured me they saw no signs of her being "off" in stride, and I didn't feel anything, so let her do more. 

We met a new horse, Cass. If I got the breeds right he is Friesian, Belgian and TB. We had our 15, 16 and 17 hand horses out there today. Hopefully you can spot his lovely movement around Halla's bouncing head in the video. She was quite uppity about showing Cass her status and assured him that Nala was her minion and he would soon be too. 
His owner was laughing because if they followed Halla closely, he didn't dare pass her. I said, "You're saying "go," and Halla is saying, "NO!" 

Cass






 
Nala and Halla trotting in the sea








Big Cass








Halla and Cass






 
A bit of fire in the eyes


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## gottatrot

I've been wondering lately about young racehorses and their diet. I know they often are fed many pounds of oats, similar to how I was feeding Halla. Which is one reason why I thought it might work out for a hard working horse to be fed that way. Some misinformation I'd been given was that if a horse was using up the extra carbs, feeding a lot of oats would not lead to laminitis. I didn't understand about the acidity required to digest the oats leading to the toxins leaking into the blood, etc.
Anyway, I saw this picture of a 6 year old racehorse, for sale as he is retiring from the track. Look at his hooves.
He must have had laminitis right around the time Halla did. I wonder if this is part of why he is now retiring. He is apparently sound now.
I've heard about older horses getting laminitis, but hadn't heard instances of young, hard working horses getting it from the diet.
Apparently even young racehorses are susceptible.


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## Hondo

Secretariat was put down due to laminitis at age 19. If he could have lived to a ripe old age, I wonder how much more money he would have brought in for stud service? It is believed by some that oats overload caused his death.


Edit: Wow, looked this up. Secretariat made over 75 million dollars during his stud service years. Stud fee was $125,000!

I'm sure he had the best vets in the world and they still could not save him.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Secretariat was put down due to laminitis at age 19. If he could have lived to a ripe old age, I wonder how much more money he would have brought in for stud service? It is believed by some that oats overload caused his death.
> 
> Edit: Wow, looked this up. Secretariat made over 75 million dollars during his stud service years. Stud fee was $125,000!
> 
> I'm sure he had the best vets in the world and they still could not save him.


I've seen quite a few pictures of Secretariat where he looked overweight. It wouldn't surprise me if he had insulin resistance. The question would be why an easy keeper would be fed oats in the first place? It could be they thought they were healthy, or it was tradition, or maybe he enjoyed eating them and they didn't see any harm in him being fat. 









For some reason I always thought sure, maybe an older horse could develop issues and not tolerate excess feed, or maybe a very overweight one. But I somehow thought that young, very athletic horses could eat a lot of grain and not have any problems. For some reason it all didn't come together for me in a big picture way until having my own issues. 
My own cousin had a horse that was overweight and insulin resistant, and she put her on a lush pasture and her coffin bones rotated so badly she had to be put to sleep at age 5. It was very sad because it was the only horse she bred from a foal and did all the training herself.


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## Hondo

Reading about IR and laminitis was a bit of a wake up call for me. Since putting Hondo on grass only hay last winter he has really shed the pounds. Can't see his ribs but they are easily felt. And his rump is even beginning to look slender compared to what it used to look like, although he is stockily built with his draft heritage.

He's on pure forage now except for about 1/3 flake of alfalfa and 1 cup of oats for a daily treat.

I just made a difficult decision day before yesterday. I am drawn to really really difficult and gnarly trails, probably due to my past recreational and competitive endevors. Trails with high penalties for any errors.

I recently completed a ton of work on such a trail that was sort of already there but with much of it not negotiable by horse and rider. I have ridden Hondo up and down the full length. He requested frequent rest stops which he got. But he never wanted to grab a bite at these stops which he usually does.

I have since dismounted and led him up the steepest and hardest parts. He still is reluctant to eat.

The forage is sparse, there are no water stops, and there is a lot of exertion. Fun for me in the past and still is. But for Hondo, not so much I'm thinking.

So I've decided if he's not enjoying himself, then I'm not either. And so I've made the decision to stick to interesting but less strenuous trails. Knowing that he's happy will make up for not riding the gnarly stuff.

On another note, I was thinking yesterday about how horses travel 18-20 miles per day in the wild. It dawned on me that if they graze 18-20 hours per day, that'd be an average travel speed of only 1 MPH.


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## Hondo

Let me add, the trail I'm talking about has around 600 feet of vertical rise in the first about 0.4 miles. Hondo actually seems to enjoy and even almost delight in going up a near vertical climb off the side of the trail that is done for no other reason that just because it's there. He doesn't mind exerting himself and does seem to enjoy it, but not just exertion after exertion after exertion for no apparent reason.

I think he just gets bored with the repetition. If there were cattle we were following or some other reason he is happy pushing harder. It seems like he says, "Aw man, we going up there again? Why?" Not to anthropomorphise but his sighs can sound VERY human.

I've been on a bit of the Tevis Cup and it's a cake walk compared to these trails. Plus it's down hill on an average.


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## bsms

Hope you don't mind my taking a couple of screen captures. I cannot imagine what it would be like to ride like these:








​ 






​ 
Most of my riding looks like this:








​ 
*Mine just looks so...Post-Apocalyptic! 
*​
Still, this always plays a role:



Hondo said:


> ...So I've decided if he's not enjoying himself, then I'm not either....


I'm trying to expand Bandit's horizons of fun, and convince him a solo trip with me is enjoyable. Not there yet, but it may be possible over time. But I think many of us enjoy riding BECAUSE our horses are enjoying it - the shared pleasure of being together, working as a team, and taking pleasure in companionship. That shared pleasure can take many forms, depending on the horse's ability, ours, and where we ride. I'm jealous of the very thought of racing along a beach, but I'm also very grateful I have 3-400 acres of convoluted terrain just 1/4 mile away.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> But I think many of us enjoy riding BECAUSE our horses are enjoying it - the shared pleasure of being together, working as a team, and taking pleasure in companionship. That shared pleasure can take many forms, depending on the horse's ability, ours, and where we ride. I'm jealous of the very thought of racing along a beach, but I'm also very grateful I have 3-400 acres of convoluted terrain just 1/4 mile away.


I agree with this 100%. I had to find a way to stick onto my Halla because she enjoys going out and running around on the beach, and she doesn't enjoy going around an arena doing endless circles. Whatever horse and whatever the terrain, ideally you can find a way to enjoy some type of activity together. 

That horse Cass in the still photos is the easiest ride of the three, but still challenging in his own ways. As you can see, his canter and trot are very large and powerful.
@Hondo, I've been privy to some of those human-like sighs from horses. And groans. Have you ever ridden a horse that groans? Very dramatic to start groaning with each step going up a very small and slight hill, carrying a 125 lb rider in a light saddle. I've had a couple horses do that to me. When we've only just left the driveway no less! 

Amore will groan sometimes, and it doesn't really seem like she is protesting anything in particular.



> On another note, I was thinking yesterday about how horses travel 18-20 miles per day in the wild. It dawned on me that if they graze 18-20 hours per day, that'd be an average travel speed of only 1 MPH.


Yes, I find it very interesting how much of a contrast there is between a horse's natural life and the things they seem to happily do for us. They are very flexible creatures. But I feel that is why we should be extra sensitive to what a horse is glad to do for us and with us versus what is stressful and not enjoyable for the horse. They will work extremely hard if they enjoy it, and reluctantly if they don't. I believe reluctance comes sometimes from fear at first, or sometimes from discomfort, but often from a lack of enjoyment for what the horse is doing. But when you find something that the horse will do joyfully, it's a great thing.


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> But I think many of us enjoy riding BECAUSE our horses are enjoying it - the shared pleasure of being together, working as a team, and taking pleasure in companionship. That shared pleasure can take many forms, depending on the horse's ability, ours, and where we ride.


I thought a lot about this idea over the weekend. Recently, Isabel has been protesting very strongly about riding the woods trail. She'll get very tight and tense, throw her head up, stop and start backing, and try to spin to leave the trail. In the past, I probably would have doubled down and said, "NO. DO IT." But I don't know, she's ridden back there dozens of times and never protested before. So maybe she's "pulling one over on me," sure, could be because I've basically been "giving in" when she wants to turn around. But she rides with enthusiasm in other places, so it's been sort of mysterious why all of a sudden she's so hesitant. Even with other horses, she previously would have been really irritated about not being able to lead and want to go around others. Now she still sort of drags back even though she doesn't try to turn around and go home. I'm just struggling to find a reason why I would "make her" when she doesn't want to. It's very rocky and hilly back there, maybe it's just legitimately uncomfortable for her in a way it's not on flatter, more consistent footing. I really wish they could talk to us.

_Doubling her pace after turning around towards home









_BO this weekend told me she felt like Izzy is wearing her front feet unevenly and has a little puffiness around her fetlocks, and said to keep an eye on it. Could be compensating for something going on in her back or in her weaker hip/pelvis area. I truly don't have the "eye" to keep an eye on it, as what she was describing was barely perceptible to me. But after a couple of rides this weekend, I am sort of feeling like it's best to do the kind of riding she seems content to do, even if it's mostly just walking around the property and trotting/cantering a bit in softer footing (grass and arena).


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> ............the things they seem to happily do for us.


This is the realization that continues to blow my mind when I periodically contemplate upon it.


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> BO this weekend told me she felt like Izzy is wearing her front feet unevenly and has a little puffiness around her fetlocks, and said to keep an eye on it.


This is something to consider, particularly if Izzy was previously ok with the rocky trail. Hondo has thin hoof walls and thin soles. He definitely knows which trails are strewn with rocks ahead and if barefoot will most definitely make it clear that he would rather not go any further down that trail. And we don't. With boots or his Ground Control shoes that cover his soles, he will continue down said trail without protest.

Are you riding barefoot? Who trims his feet? Pictures? There is a reason and if the only difference in the trails protested is rocks, feet certainly sound to be a possible reason. The puffiness is worrisome also. Might need a vet to get involved. Could be arthritis too. Joints can take a beating in rocky uneven terrain. (ask me how i know this)


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ...She'll get very tight and tense, throw her head up, stop and start backing, and try to spin to leave the trail. In the past, I probably would have doubled down and said, "NO. DO IT." But I don't know, she's ridden back there dozens of times and never protested before. So maybe she's "pulling one over on me," sure, could be because I've basically been "giving in" when she wants to turn around...It's very rocky and hilly back there, maybe it's just legitimately uncomfortable for her in a way it's not on flatter, more consistent footing. I really wish they could talk to us...


I struggle with it too. Like on the last ride, when Bandit didn't want to go past the parked car. How hard do I push him? How hard SHOULD I push him? Am I pushing him outside his comfort zone, but in a helpful way? Or am I just telling him to shut up and serve me? 

I think he also has the most sensitive feet of the 3. The farrier says he has very good hooves, but maybe those years when he was ridden, heavy and hard, using his front left leg twisted, did something INSIDE the leg.

Or does it have something to do with the thickness of his soles? He handles very rocky ground OK, carefully picking his way. It is the ATV trails that cause him the most problems. Smooth & packed VERY hard, but with rocks strewn around on top. I need to explore hoof boots for him.

I've also noticed he seems to have less problems if I put a roll on the front of his front hooves every couple of weeks. Maybe his toe tends to grow too far out front? But why? I know nothing about horse hooves and trimming. We have a lot of paved roads around here, and one option I'm considering is spending more time on them. He still finds human neighborhoods spooky, but I'm sure he could become acclimatized to them just as he has to the Sonoran Desert. If so, asphalt seems to be a great 'self-trimmer' for hooves. It would also be smoother and less rocky than the ATV trails. If he didn't feel threatened in neighborhoods, I think Bandit might come to like them. Asphalt is my horse's favorite place to ride - which says a lot about our trails here! They would MUCH rather trot down a paved road than down a trail!

Competitive riders have their own challenges. _I-like-being-with-my-horse_ riders have our own. It would be SOOO much easier if the horse could say, "This is making my knees sore!"


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## egrogan

Hondo said:


> This is something to consider, particularly if Izzy was previously ok with the rocky trail. Hondo has thin hoof walls and thin soles. He definitely knows which trails are strewn with rocks ahead and if barefoot will most definitely make it clear that he would rather not go any further down that trail. And we don't. With boots or his Ground Control shoes that cover his soles, he will continue down said trail without protest.
> 
> Are you riding barefoot? Who trims his feet? Pictures? There is a reason and if the only difference in the trails protested is rocks, feet certainly sound to be a possible reason. The puffiness is worrisome also. Might need a vet to get involved. Could be arthritis too. Joints can take a beating in rocky uneven terrain. (ask me how i know this)


Yep, Izzy has always been barefoot as long as I've known her (so 6+ years). Every farrier- from traditional shoers to barefoot trimmers- have rated her feet as excellent (doesn't everyone say that about their "baby?" :wink. She is about 2 weeks into a recent trim. We have a new barefoot trimmer who has seen her for 2 cycles now. I can't link her protests to him starting though as the weather has been so rotten that we weren't really riding on the trails much in the weeks leading up to when he started trimming. Next time he's out (first week of June) I'll be sure to point this out and talk in-depth. I don't have any photos of her feet right now though could get some proper ones soon. Here is a full body shot of her yesterday though I know it's not appropriate for studying feet, particularly given how they sort of sink down into the footing.









She does have confirmed arthritis in her hocks, though her x-rays are probably 1.5-2 years old at this point so of course there could be further deterioration. She gets daily maintenance Cosequin. She had a general "check-up" with the vet about 2 months ago and we talked about some of the obvious "older horse" wear and tear that's observable without x-rays or other diagnostics but didn't feel that there were any red flags that called for more intensive investigation right now. But luckily our vet is a riding student of BO so she's out all the time and could take a closer look whenever needed.


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## bsms

I twisted my knee a couple of days ago while out jogging. Had to limp home. Used a knee support for the rest of the day.

Riding today, I initially lengthened my stirrups to where they were about to fall off my foot. It felt good for my knee, but Bandit was having one of his days...his "[expletive deleted] you!" days. Probably spent about 45 minutes out of 75 minutes riding giving me the Middle Hoof Salute, and me giving him the Middle Finger Salute back. 

In that sense, he is not at all like Mia. Mia was always very willing, but not always able. Bandit has days where he is completely able, but not the least bit willing. I joke that it is being a mix of Arabian/Mustang, because I've had people who owned mustangs tell me mustangs are like that sometimes - just not in the mood, regardless of what the question is. On any given day, I don't know if I'm going to ride an Arabian or a Mustang, but I usually find out 10 minutes into the ride.

Anyways, when I shortened the stirrups at a Stop & Munch, things felt GREAT - except my knee started aching. It obviously is not swollen, red...nothing to see or feel. But I sure can feel it! During the intervals on the ride home where Bandit and I weren't arguing, I'd stretch my knee.

I suspect that happens to horses, too. They twist or overuse something, their leg gets sensitive, and since they ALWAYS use their legs, it takes a long time to fully heal. Nothing visible, but then it aches. A willing horse will try, but just can't say, "Bob, my leg is achy".

Bandit's attitude today wasn't an ache. I'm sure of that. He just had attitude. I spent part of the ride thinking of the video of Halla, moving her head side to side while going forward. Bandit did that a lot today, went behind the vertical a lot, got prancy and snorty - just full of himself. But I really worry about the future of his front left leg. I could easily see him having some aches there that will cause problems for him when he is older. I'm trying to think of things I can do for him now to reduce the probability of problems 10 years from now.

PS - And Bandit does have problems with rocky trails that the other two do not. Trooper's hooves chip sometimes, but he doesn't get bothered by a rocky trail. Bandit is much more sensitive. I'll talk with the farrier later this week. Part of me thinks shoes on the front would help. But maybe I need to try rubber shoes first.

_Stop & Munch_









​


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> Yep, Izzy has always been barefoot as long as I've known her (so 6+ years).


It would be interesting to know how she might do on the rocky trails she seems to not like if wearing boots. 4 boots for just an experiment is a bit pricey, but if you're in a barn, any possibility to borrow some for one ride? If you just walked, the fit wouldn't have to be perfect but should be close.

Has the vet seen the puffiness? I'd want to know what she thought about that.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I struggle with it too. Like on the last ride, when Bandit didn't want to go past the parked car. How hard do I push him? How hard SHOULD I push him? Am I pushing him outside his comfort zone, but in a helpful way? Or am I just telling him to shut up and serve me?
> 
> *Horses knocked a gate down today and got out. They had them penned down at the ranch house. I brought Hondo back with the motorcycle, then saddled up to go back for the other two. As I was going up the steep road to the ranch house, Hondo became fearful. After stopping for a bit and urging him on he became more and more fearful. There were bushes that either the cattle dogs or a handful of angora goats could have been in. Or? I simply dismounted and he was content to follow with me in line to be eaten first.
> On the second return trip for the third horse he went up the slope without a hitch. He's been up that slope hundreds of times in the past. Who knows? I just accepted his fear.*
> 
> 
> Or does it have something to do with the thickness of his soles? He handles very rocky ground OK, carefully picking his way. It is the ATV trails that cause him the most problems. Smooth & packed VERY hard, but with rocks strewn around on top. I need to explore hoof boots for him.
> 
> *The thickness of the sole is very close to the depth of the apex of the frog below the wall, with measurements taken at the junction of the live sole. Hondo's is about 3/8". A horse with that thin of sole can never be a rock cruncher. As you've mentioned in the past, Hondo also prefers the untrodden desert to a compacted trail.
> 
> I personally would encourage you to try boots prior to shoes. The thin metal shoes do not afford much protection for the sole. And it should not take long to determine if the rocks/thin sole is the problem with boots. They are an extra bit of tack to deal with for each ride. That said I have pulled the Ground Controls and have gone back to boots. (back and forth) Hondo's hoof wall is just so thin that it'd difficult to to mount with screws for the long term and I don't nail.
> *
> 
> I've also noticed he seems to have less problems if I put a roll on the front of his front hooves every couple of weeks. Maybe his toe tends to grow too far out front? But why? I know nothing about horse hooves and trimming.
> 
> *The distance from the TRUE frog apex (which I won't go into at the moment) to the border of the sole at the toe should be no more that 1.25" for the "regular" sized hoof. Otherwise there is an indication of a stretched toe which would mean that the protective structure below the toe of the coffin bone is pulled out from under the coffin bone which allows the coffin bone to rest upon the circumflex artery and others which in turn reduces blood flow to the hoof providing nutrients for supplying and supporting sole growth.
> (whew, was that one sentence?)*


six words


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Bandit's attitude today wasn't an ache. I'm sure of that. He just had attitude.


We are deeply divided on this. Won't comment on whether he had an ache or not, but I do not believe that "He just had an attitude." describes any horse. None whatsoever.

I can have an attitude, you can have an attitude, but I just happen to believe that horses do not and likely cannot.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> We are deeply divided on this. Won't comment on whether he had an ache or not, but I do not believe that "He just had an attitude." describes any horse. None whatsoever...


My daughter's comment at the end of the ride:

"_And you wonder why he's always covered with bite marks?_"

:think:​


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> My daughter's comment at the end of the ride:
> 
> "_And you wonder why he's always covered with bite marks?_"
> 
> :think:​


Well, Dragon came to me covered in bite marks. Half dozen or more. 2-3 inches in measurement. They are all haired over now. I'm thinking if your horse Really had an attitude it would be the other horses that had the bite marks.

Dragon is the most submissive horse on the ranch. No attitude whatsoever that I see. Why he gets picked on I have no idea.

My position remains, which both you and your daughter disagree with, that both you and your daughter are wrong and the horse is right.

On another note: I should have also mentioned that if the toe is pulled/shoved forward the front of the hoof wall will be dished somewhat. The dishing generally starts about 1 inch down from the hairline. When dishing is present, the hoof wall is no longer connected to the coffin bone as it should be. If the top 1 inch is eyeballed to extend straight down the hoof, an estimation of how much too far forward the toe is can be made. I use this in conjunction with the distance from the frog apex.

The pain from a disconnected hoof wall has been compared to pulling the finger nail back.


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## gottatrot

@egrogan, even in buried/far away pictures you can usually see if a horse's hoof angles are way off. Can't see anything glaring from your photo, just neat little hooves with apparently decent angles. It sounds like you've had decent trimmers, so I'd assume her main issues are from the arthritis. 

I understand very well why many horse people don't have a deep understanding of hooves. All my life I read everything I could get my hands on about horses - and retained quite a lot of it. But there were three areas I always skimmed over and thought "maybe I'll learn about those someday." Hooves, nutrition and genetics (such as colors, inherited traits) could never capture my interest. I'd try to read some articles, but it was like studying dry school textbooks and I couldn't get the enthusiasm needed or the drive to learn more.

Probably I still would know barely anything about hooves if we hadn't ended up moving around and trying out various farriers. When I bought Amore I was so insecure about my hoof knowledge that I asked my cousin to drive a couple hours from her home to tell me what I needed to know. She said they looked "fine." 

Then I kept ending up with terrible farriers, and although I felt certain I would not be able to do a good job of trimming myself, I looked into it. At first I was insecure about even using a rasp, but then I got exposed to friends who showed me it was no big deal, and that if you can handle keeping a rasp level on a piece of wood, you can rasp a hoof (I had lots of wood shop when in high school). 

It ended up with me thinking, "How can I not know about hooves? No hoof, no horse!!" And then getting a bit obsessed for awhile, trying to learn everything possible, down to the cellular level. 

Along the way, I ended up trimming so many different horses and seeing how different hooves can be - and learning how to trim horses that farriers wouldn't, out of necessity. 

I understand on the one hand that it is a farrier's livelihood and they don't want to take risk. On the other hand, what farriers perceive as too dangerous feels exaggerated to me, based on all the horses I and others have handled, trimmed and even put shoes on that the farriers would not touch. Farriers often are not experienced horse people, used to all types of horses. 

I'm sure they are out there, but I've not yet come across a horse that was trying to kill someone that was trimming their hooves. They're always defensive, trying to escape or protect themselves. They either kick their way out - to get free, or they pull their leg away and kick, to get you away so you won't harm them. Most horses don't kick at all, even when frightened, but just pull away.

It's a matter of communication: Don't kick + I won't hurt you. They learn they are not supposed to kick, and that we won't hurt them. Just like with riding, freedom equals compliance. The horse has to know they can get away, they can get their leg back and they can run if they need to. Trapping is the worst idea. In every area of working with horses, it seems that humans think about trapping horses and horses respond the worst when trapped. Humans want to stop, shut down, and contain. Horses want to be free to escape, to run, to flee danger. Freedom equals calmness. 

Same with nutrition...so boring until my horses started having issues. Then out of necessity I began to read and learn, and found out it was both easier to understand and also more interesting than I thought. It used to be my eyes would glaze over when I read about calcium/phosphorus ratios, etc. But there really are very few ratios that matter in horse nutrition, and nothing that has to be memorized, you can just check things online and it's all good. 

I was super skeptical about vitamins or supplements until Halla had her Vitamin E deficiency. Then I realized we probably don't feed horses anything like the varied diet they'd have foraging in the wild, and that making things too simple and homogenous might lead to health issues, vet bills, and a shortened life. 

Ramblings and musings, just a long way to say that _if _you can convince your brain to take in some info about hooves, your horse will be greatly benefited. If I'd been in the dark still about hooves, I'd have no way of knowing whether whatever trimming was recommended for Halla was good or completely wrong. In a case like hers, it could have made the difference between life and death, or at least the possibility of having sound and healthy hooves in the future.


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## gottatrot

*Horse Attitude*

Another post on a different topic:
"Horse attitude."

Interesting to read various perspectives on this.
I'm thinking - what is meant by attitude? 
When one person says attitude, are they meaning negative attitude? 

Mostly I think of attitude as neither a negative or positive thing, but more of an accentuation of personality. After all, it is often the word that comes before "attitude" that describes what type of attitude we are talking about. One can have a solemn attitude, or a depressed one. 

Let's say on my last ride, Halla was full of attitude. Yes, she was. But I didn't see her attitude as being negative, but rather just an accentuation of what she was feeling. She wears her heart on her sleeve, so to speak. Her wildly swinging head and posturing were meant to portray things to a new horse she didn't know. She often is more animated toward geldings, my thought on this is that they sometimes are less sensitive and responsive, and sort of stare like "numb nuts" if that is an appropriate term for a gelding. So she really gets animated to try to get them to respond to her body language.

My perspective on our last ride was that Halla was interested in going out with Nala; she is a horse that likes a routine and to go back into the familiar routine of riding with Nala was something she seemed to appreciate. She also was interested about trying to fit a new horse into her riding world as she knows it. She also seemed positive about this, very interested and not unhappy. So although I would say she was full of attitude, hardly any of it seemed related whatsoever to being ridden, to where we went, or to cues, etc.

People do often describe horses as having a bad attitude. Sometimes they do, but I feel it always has a reason just like our attitudes do. But just like with us, it might not be a solvable reason, such as a swing in hormones. All we can do is eliminate the reasons that have to do with things we can change to make them more positive for the horse. 
I think if we really know our horses, we will know what is in character and out of character for the horse. 

I think the worst thing we can do is not try to understand the "why," and just try to push on. But if we think we know the "why," then sometimes we might think it's fine to push the horse on.

If I've seen a mare paying attention to all the geldings over the fence and acting like she is in heat, then I might know why she acts a little full of it when I take her out. I might ignore all that, knowing she is not in any real pain, and thinking she might feel better if I push her through any initial reluctance and get her thinking and working. 

A horse with arthritis might be a little stiff and reluctant at first, but I might know that movement is good for arthritis, and that the horse will work out of it and feel better afterward.

Amore might not want to go out because she'd rather be home eating, and also she'll never be completely secure on her own in the world. But I always pushed her on because it was good for her overall health to get exercise, and like a kid that would rather play video games all day it might be healthy for her general outlook on life to do something different. 



> *@Bsms*: I suspect that happens to horses, too. They twist or overuse something, their leg gets sensitive, and since they ALWAYS use their legs, it takes a long time to fully heal. Nothing visible, but then it aches. A willing horse will try, but just can't say, "Bob, my leg is achy".


To me this is super important. People I ride with often act like I'm strange because I talk so much about gradually increasing a horse's workload, and don't just go out and work a horse every day, making huge leaps in time and distance. So many people treat horses like they are machines. But I have done athletic pursuits my whole life. I know that I get sore each time I make a gain in speed, distance or intensity of a workout. Of course horses are the same way. They need recovery time. 

If a horse has never gone ten miles before, then if you take them out ten miles three days in a row, by the third day they're probably going to feel extremely sore, in a normal physiological way even if they didn't get hurt at all. 

All of this is why I feel horse people are always doing detective work. We're always figuring out if things are physical, mental, nutritional, training, or whether we should blame ourselves and how we're handling the horse for their particular attitude toward doing things. So tricky all the time.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> It's a matter of communication: Don't kick + I won't hurt you. They learn they are not supposed to kick, and that we won't hurt them. Just like with riding, freedom equals compliance. The horse has to know they can get away, they can get their leg back and they can run if they need to. Trapping is the worst idea. In every area of working with horses, it seems that humans think about trapping horses and horses respond the worst when trapped. Humans want to stop, shut down, and contain. Horses want to be free to escape, to run, to flee danger. Freedom equals calmness.


I'm thinking @gottatrot has totally outdone herself in these last two posts. So much really good stuff, much that bears being repeated. But repeating the above quote is just a must. Freedom during trimming has just worked wonders with all three of the horses in my care. Their safety is just so important and their feet is their safety.

And the last line in particular:* Freedom equals calmness.*

On another note: I wonder if hoof boots and pads would ease arthritic discomfort somewhat?


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, thanks for the tough love- you completely captured my experience trying to learn about hooves! I can spend hours reading about all aspects of horse care and riding, but hooves _do _make me glaze over. I have a science/math mind, but biology was the one class I was happy to get out of the way early and never go back to (Chemistry, on the other hand, I fell in love with). I start looking at structural diagrams and names of anatomical features, and I can't process it. I've watched a lot of the videos on hoof mapping and I try to transfer it to real life, and I truly just can't see it. Even when I was standing in the aisle with the horse and BO was saying, "look, see here how she's wearing this square at the quarter," I was nodding yes so I didn't look like a total idiot while she was literally pointing at the place on the foot she was concerned about, but in reality I actually could not see at all how it looked any different from the other 3 feet. So...maybe I'm just a lost cause, I don't know. It's not an excuse, but it is certainly a deficiency.

So as for boots- the reason I selected my current trimmer is because he's an authorized fitter for Renegades. That actually sparks a timeline memory for me- in the winter, when the gravel road was frozen, Izzy was very hesitant to walk on it. I thought maybe I'd want to try boots to make it a little easier on her, because frozen gravel is obviously going to be uncomfortable for just about anyone. At his first trim, he did fit her up for Renegades, but said in his opinion, it really wasn't necessary for a horse with her feet - though of course he'd be happy to sell them to me if I really wanted them :wink:

I will be out there tomorrow morning and will see about getting pictures.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Attitude is a product of perception + personality.

Attitude is often quite “logical” in its existence.

Think about kids and school. My parents always said I had a “bad attitude” when it came to math oriented subjects. Why? I guess I never saw the purpose in it at least beyond about eighth grade pre-algebra. Maybe I didn’t know exactly what it was I wanted to be when I grew up but, knew enough that whatever career I selected would not be needing Algebra, Trig or Calculus, advanced chem or physics. An engineer I was not.

In essence, learning these things was a waste of my time. Time, I could have spent learning something I really would need and use later in life. It did not help that mathematics was my most difficult subject and I was mandated to learn advanced math in order to graduate high school. I did what needed doing but, most certainly wasn’t enjoying it.

I was also accused of having a “bad attitude” when, towards the end of my armature skating career, I would get off the ice before the session was done. Fact was, I was truly hurting. No one would believe me that at 16 my knees and shins were falling apart. No one would listen even though I was communicating quite well in speech that something was wrong, they just assumed I had a “bad attitude” and was being hormonal, lazy or was getting burned out and making excuses. I got dismissed until the day I refused to even get out on the ice and the swelling was so bad it was visible to the naked eye. Then suddenly they believed me. 

With horses, I wonder if it isn’t similar; the question is not so much what their attitude is but, what is ours? We often extrapolate that the horse as a less intelligent life form prone to “unpredictable behavior” is doing what they are doing without a logical reason without a “real” reason; at least not a reason we deem reasonable.

Is that true or is it that they do what they do with real reasons and our own perceptions interfere with our ability to listen and understand? 

The next question is does the why matter or is it more important to us that the horse does as asked when it is asked without question at all times and do so without "attitude"?

From my own life's experience, that seems like an unreasonably high bar to set.


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## bsms

Attitude can range from good to bad. I obviously meant bad attitude here:



bsms said:


> ...In that sense, he is not at all like Mia. Mia was always very willing, but not always able. Bandit has days where he is completely able, but not the least bit willing. I joke that it is being a mix of Arabian/Mustang, because I've had people who owned mustangs tell me mustangs are like that sometimes - just not in the mood, regardless of what the question is...
> 
> ...Bandit's attitude today wasn't an ache. I'm sure of that. He just had  attitude...Bandit did that a lot today, went behind the vertical a lot, got prancy and snorty - just full of himself...


In communication, context is critical. I've had Mia behave that way, particularly at the beginning of a ride, and all she meant was:

"_Gotta get out! Gotta get Going! *Gotta Move*! Shake the boogers out of my brain!_" Then, looking back at the other horses, "_Come OONNNNN, lardbuckets! We're burning daylight!"_

But 45-60 minutes into the ride, and having ridden Bandit for 2 years now, I'm pretty sure he was saying, "_I'm SOOO not in the mood. Mood for what? ANYTHING! Not in the mood. Not in the mood. NOT IN THE MOOD!_" And when I cued him to turn off the road and into the wash, an unfamiliar section of wash, he decided it was time to chant, "_Heck No! We won't go!_"

Not fear. Oh, he might have been a little worried, but his worries weren't very strong. His worry was an excuse to make a stand there: "_You aren't the boss of me!_"

I'm not huge on dominating horses, but I'm also not big on letting them make critical decisions - like which route we take home! My wife was watching our grandson and needed to be relieved so she could go to work. We needed to get back and not spend the next 3 hours wandering aimlessly around under Bandit's control.

There were multiple ways of handling it. I could have turned him around, put him on the rear side of the other two horses, and let him follow or be left behind. I'm about 99% certain that would have worked. I could have dismounted, and maybe led him - although since this wasn't a fear issue, that might not have worked.

But I chose to make a stand too - that sometimes Bandit needs to accept my judgment and direction even if he doesn't feel like it. Why? Because I truly DO know more than my horse. Not about everything, but the map in my head and what route can get us home is much more accurate than what is in his head. At least when I can see and know where I am! And if that means crossing 100' of rocky terrain, or pushing between some bushes, or going somewhere he hasn't seen in a year (or ever)...so be it.

My horse isn't always right. Not even close to it. My horses - all of them - regularly misjudge things. Their sense of what is dangerous is USUALLY not nearly as good as mine. And they have no concept that spending the next hundred yards being uncomfortable will gain them an easy, smooth path home.

About 5-10 minutes earlier, we had to pass on a paved road going over drainage pipes. Bandit can sense them even when he cannot see them - and it truly worries him. At those two places, Trooper and Cowboy came up, and the three of us crossed over side by side. A year ago, Bandit would not have trusted Cowboy and Trooper enough for that to make any difference to him. Now he does. And he trusts my judgment more than he used to trust it.

Had I been solo, I would have dismounted at those spots and led him - even if it took 5-10 minutes. Genuine fear or deep concern is one thing. Telling me to take a direct route to Hades is another.

I don't remember Mia EVER balking out of stubbornness. She'd go until she couldn't, and THEN balk. She would RUN out of excitement and pleasure, and get really upset about needing to slow - and that was dangerous because she didn't REALLY care WHERE she ran, once she got going fast! We had some battles over slowing or stopping before a bunch of rocks or a paved road...but she never balked except for deep fear.

Bandit is different. He needs to be ridden differently and trained (taught) differently. He isn't Halla, Hondo, Mia, Lilly or Cowboy. Did I make the right decision? I think so. I don't think he would have actually walked - on alert, but WALKED - down the wash because I kicked him in the gut with my heels if he had been too afraid. He didn't spin, rear or buck, so he didn't feel it was impossible. I didn't use a whip, spurs or crop. I know Bandit. If he had been truly afraid, he'd have spun hard and refused no matter how much I kicked him. Like Mia, a whip or spurs or a crop or anything else would not make him move if he was deeply afraid. But his behavior when afraid is different too. And learning to READ my horse correctly is a huge part of learning to ride well.

It involves making mistakes. I'm allowed to make them, just as Bandit is and Mia was. My horses have never held my mistakes against me any more than I hold theirs against them. But I may differ from some because I *DO* believe my horse is sometimes wrong. He isn't a mystical being descended from heaven. He's fallible - like me. He made a bad choice yesterday. And we worked thru it. I may make a bad one today - but I don't think I did yesterday. I think Mia and Bandit share this: Neither would respect a push-over.

Mia's current owner is a Clinton Anderson fan. He's also a big, strong guy with depths of endurance my 59 year old body cannot match. He went 4 hours working Mia from the ground once. I was exhausted watching, but he was smiling (and his smile got BIGGER with each hour!) - and at the end, *Mia was happy too*. His approach to riding is much more dominating than mine, but I really believed Mia was going to be content with him. I wouldn't have made the trade otherwise.

I don't like all that he did with Bandit because I think Bandit was too often pushed thru things when Bandit needed an explanation instead. But I want to be honest. Much of Bandit's improvement has been simple acclimatization - getting used to his new surroundings. Some of it IS trust - growing trust for me, and growing trust in Cowboy and Trooper. Cowboy and Trooper are now allies who can help me teach Bandit, unlike a year ago when Bandit didn't care WHAT they thought. But Bandit is also capable of giving his rider The Middle Hood Salute. When he does, like Mia, I think he needs someone to go toe to hoof with him.

Maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> [MENTION=24027]@egrogan , even in buried/far away pictures you can usually see if a horse's hoof angles are way off. Can't see anything glaring from your photo, just neat little hooves with apparently decent angles.


I have to do a short little blurb here. Usually and apparently are used and I agree. But as I read this I recalled a post by Patty Stiller around two years or so ago.

Patty had sent a glowing bouquet of roses to the OP on the external appearance of the hoof capsule while waiting on solar shots.

When the pictures came and she looked at the bottom, Patty was agast. She said a foot like that shows up once in a long while and when it does it can easily throw someone. I've kept that memory tucked away in my mind ever since which makes me hesitant to comment about proportions without seeing the bottom.

But as Patty confirmed, usually you can.

I do not remember what it was that resulted in the external appearance being so remarkable different than what the true inner structure was like. It wasn't club I don't think. Just don't remember.


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## Hondo

@bsms I just have a hard time relating to horse and rider making expletive gestures at one another.

On an association basis, when I read that up comes the memory of what Mark Rashid's "Old Man" once said. If you want to fight with a horse, the horse will always oblige you.

Don't know if this applies in your case, but that is what surfaces in my memory bank.


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## bsms

I would phrase it, "_If the horse wants a fight, I might oblige him_."

It isn't as though I insist on unquestioning obedience or else. And I have no problem with taking extra time when Bandit's problem is fear or lack of understanding. But sometimes, he just wants his own way. And like a 3 year old kid, he can't always understand that having his own way would cause problems. In his journal, @Alhefner mentions "_working with Mr. "I don't wanna!" Barney this afternoon_". I can relate.

Man or horse, sometimes you have to do the tough thing now to get to the happy things afterward. If Bandit never gets pushed to stretch his comfort zone - and I cannot do so perfectly, so I'll sometimes push too hard - then he'll never have the comfort zone that allows him the freedom to go out and burn energy and be trusted and do things he enjoys.

I jogged with a knee support this morning. Passed on riding because it was already getting hot. Right now, both my legs and my back are tired. Sore tired. But I'll never get back to the freedom of jogging 4-5 miles through the desert without pushing myself. Push too hard too soon, and I'll break down. But if I don't push, I'll be a couch potato - and I don't want that.

The difference is that I understand how being pushed today can give me things I want tomorrow. Or next fall, or in 2018. Bandit can't do that.

I understand that some disagree. That is OK. I'm trying to explain WHY I've taken this path, not defending it. Learning about my horses has also caused me to learn about myself. The long-term trend will give me an answer. If he progresses and becomes more confident, more willing, and more eager to get out and go - and to accept my guidance - then what I'm trying will have worked. If he becomes sour, or shows what the 1860s cavalryman called "_the grand catastrophe of restiveness_" - I'll have taken the wrong path. If so, hopefully I'll recognize it before the disaster stage and try something different.

And if so, maybe the conversations we are having now will alert me to the '_disaster in the making_' in time to recover. While if it works, then maybe it can be food for thought for a horse someone else might meet someday.


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

lol on the mustang thing. I've had times with my Shan where it has just been a sheer battle of will: "Please pick up a trot and go left around the bush"-"No, I won't do that"-"You will do it"-"No, I won't, and you can't make me"-"Yes I can, MOVE"-"Fine, I'll move, how about like this: *buck* or like this *rear*"-*I make her think she just started battling a demon*-"FINE! I'm going!". And just as quickly as it starts, it's over. 

I've had people work with Shan who will not match her will with their own... or argue with her, as some might say. She turns into the most dangerous, spoiled, bratty little kid you've ever seen, except she's not so little at a thousand pounds. In addition to becoming that way, she becomes extremely unsure of herself and extremely nervous, because in her eyes when they didn't stand up to her challenge, she became the herd leader. Now it's her job to keep the herd safe, and she's always been a nervous wreck in that position. 

I try to just ignore/not hold it against people who think you never ever have to very firmly/harshly tell a horse no. I just assume that they have never worked with a horse like Shan, but only with the laid back, people-pleasing QH types (like my mother's horse) or with the willing but explosively nervous Arabs or other similar types of horses.

Yes, Shan and I do argue... but only rarely now. That's after about 8 years of learning how to communicate with her, when to say no, when to say yes, when to ask nicely, when to make her think the devil's after her. I'd far rather have it out with her once than nag or remind her, which only irritates her and makes her escalate the behavior.

I've worked with a lot of horses, and I have yet to meet any that are Shan's match. She is a rare kind for sure. I think that if most horse people had to learn how to deal with a horse like her, they would not be so quick to condemn the handler that took a whip to the horse's rump for one or two solid smacks. They would understand that the handler likely had good reason for it (there is a big difference between one or two smacks and beating the living daylights out of a horse).

I will mention one last thing. I've had Shan at a lot of different stables. I can tell you from first hand experience that the vast majority of 'experienced' horse people at these stables, whether other boarders or managers or whatever, were incapable of handling Shan. I believe many referred to her as the 'devil horse' or similar terms, and they could not understand why she was an angel with me. Well, it's because I've gone through all of Shan's tests. I've stood up to her. I can catch all of her small little tests before they turn into WW3. A lot of the other people that handled her apparently did not know how to do this.


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## Hondo

FWIW, My day with Hondo, so far today.

Yesterday was to be our first off-ranch trail ride. Instead I had to spend the morning retrieving them one by one from the ranch house 1.5 miles away.

So today was to be our first off-ranch trail ride.

Up at 4 AM to beat the heat. Internet stuff and the horses in by daylight. Everyone got a light early morning treat of a bit of alfalfa, except Hondo, he got a little more.

Hondo's feeder is right by the saddle rack where I place the saddle when we're going riding. When I brought the saddle out and placed it on the rack, Hondo looked at me, at the saddle, and abruptly turned and walked away to the corner of his half of the yard/pen with his hinny facing me. At first I thought he was taking a position to relieve his bladder but no, he was talking to me in the only way he know how.

Our last ride other than yesterday's retrieval was up what I considered a glorious climb up the side of a steep mountain. During that ride Hondo suggested several times that we turn around a go back home. We did not. He trudged faithfully onward. He ate not a bite on the climb during rest stops. And ate hardly anything during a 30 minute rest at the turn around point. And hardly ate a bite on the way down.

This not eating behavior is extremely unusual for Hondo. Plus with his multiple request to go home, I concluded that even with liberal rests along the way this was just too much for him, at least for his current condition. Maybe later, maybe not.

While he was standing in the corner I decided to give the other horses a bite more to see how he would respond. He watched them eating and finally went back to his feeder and started eating again.

Put on his boots and saddle. Checked the air pressure in his saddle bladders. Ok, I'm a nerd.

Added a light saddle bag with a nose bag and about three pounds of oats. This was to be his day. An interesting ride with some rocky step ups and some light climbing but nothing strenuous other than maybe a 20 foot steep climb.

He really started freaking out after in the trailer seeing the other horses being turned out to pasture. Not much I could do to calm him. Talked a little, gave a few treats, and off we went.

He was settled some by the time we reached the area we were going to stage from. After unloading he noticed some plants that were apparently different that what he'd been eating and started grazing. Me thinks this is good. So we wondered around for a while checking out the flora.

Then I decided to mount and let him continue grazing while mounted. To my surprise, he just took off down the trail without being asked. He stopped a couple of time to ask which way, but other than that it was a great ride. I did stop a couple of time to give him a few handfuls of oats in his nosebag. He presented no complaints nor hesitancy. He did graze some on the way up and I had determined that anytime he asked to graze he would get it. Not necessarily as long as he would like, otherwise we might still be there.

When the sun burning into my back told me it was time to turn around, Hondo almost seemed reluctant. But we did turn around and as is usual for Hondo, he ate voraciously all the way back.

For various reasons, today was one of the very best rides I've ever been on with Hondo. There are a lot of really nice reasonable off-ranch trails nearby that I'm familiar with and I'm looking forward to revisiting them.

If Hondo knew what they were like, I'd like to think he'd be looking forward to them also.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I would phrase it, "_If the horse wants a fight, I might oblige him_."





horseluvr2524 said:


> @bsms
> 
> I've stood up to her.


I'm feeling like I have three eyeballs and am from another planet. I just cannot anyway get my head around relating to a horse as described by yall.

I just can't. If I ever came to feel that way, I would not even want a horse.

To me, the horse is one of the deepest, most sincere, and most sensitive animals on the face of the earth. More So than us humans for certain.

Beam me up Scotty. Hondo too!


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...I just assume that they have never worked with a horse like Shan, but only with the laid back, people-pleasing QH types (like my mother's horse) or with the willing but explosively nervous Arabs or other similar types of horses.
> 
> Yes, Shan and I do argue... but only rarely now...
> 
> I've worked with a lot of horses, and I have yet to meet any that are Shan's match. She is a rare kind for sure...


I think horses can very a lot, and I've gotten very careful about saying "Never" or "Always".

I'm 100% certain that many people have never dealt with a horse like Mia. So they would tell me it was MY nervousness that made her spooky, or that I just needed to "push her past things" - to include the advice "Get a bigger whip!" People like SueC & gottatrot would share what they had seen or done, and I could replicate it with Mia. What many others said to do - move her feet, circle her, act confident, etc - it just didn't work. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work with SOME horses. I may not care for Clinton Anderson, but I've read a lot of posts on HF saying "His method turned my horse around..." - and who am I to deny them?

Mia was a bit of an extreme, but it probably took an extreme horse to teach me how many experts are wrong. 

Bandit is not a nervous horse. He is cautious, but he is NOT high-strung, super-sensitive, etc. He is also not always willing. He can be pig-headed. That doesn't bother me. I'm pig-headed too.

Some of what I learned with Mia has been very helpful with Bandit. But some of what I learned I need to store in the attic, until I find myself dealing (if ever) with another high-strung horse. And at 59, Bandit could be my last horse. So I need to learn to train and ride the horse I've got, not the horse I had.

Mia, for whatever issues she had, was a genuine sweetheart compared to Bandit. A more dangerous ride. Not as trustworthy as Bandit. Bandit has many qualities, though. He is often willing, often in a good mood, likes to get out, feels responsible for the herd and accepts challenges. If we were in a tight spot, I'd trust Bandit to give his best. I'm regularly riding him in spots I never came close to daring with Mia. I need to appreciate him for who he is. And the truth is...he is NOT the most sensitive of souls.


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## Hondo

Ran across this story about a horse named Hondo a while back and of course just had to save it. Have been meaning to share it. Here it is.......

A horse named Hondo made it necessary for Ray to change his ways. 
Hondo made it clear that Ray could be broken, but he, the horse, could not.

"Everything I know now started with that horse," Ray said. "Hondo was a sticking, biting, kicking, bucking tough colt who might have killed me. 

Hondo would tell me, ‘Come on and try to break me, and I’ll break in YOU again’........and he would have. But I had all winter to work on him. He was my only horse; without him, I was afoot. It was just him and me and I tried to put myself in his place. How did he get so afraid? What could I do to make him trust me? A horse that’s had trouble can’t believe a human will quit hurting them.

I felt sorry for that horse who had to hold up his defence. You can’t blame him. 

I worked on him some and we got so I could get near him, then get on him. I’m not saying it was all love and kisses. You better believe it. Things could get pretty physical, pretty western. I’d go to bed at night and think about that horse, dream about him, then go back to work with him the next day."

In the middle of the winter of 1960-61, Ray took Hondo to Tom Dorrance.

"He’s a little old bow-legged cowboy; he’s the brains of it all. He can fix a horse so fast you never knew what happened.

And who taught Tom? He says it was the horse. As soon as Tom came around me, Hondo would act like a lamb. And as soon as he left, I’d be riding a tiger again. I couldn’t understand. Something was going on but I couldn’t find it.

See, I was too forceful. The timing was good but the mental feel of how it could be wasn’t there. I couldn’t visualize it and the yielding wasn’t there. The horse was afraid of me. I thought I had to hurt him to get him rideable. I knew it wasn’t right. And pretty soon, I learned that to get respect, I had to give respect.

Sometimes it’s hard to figure out because a horse is so big and strong, but there’s a difference between firm and forceful. And there’s a spot in there, inside the horse, an opening where there is no fear or resistance, and that’s what I began looking for."
By the end of the year Hondo was gentle, smooth, athletic, and kind to be around, a horse the grandkids could ride.


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> I'm feeling like I have three eyeballs and am from another planet. I just cannot anyway get my head around relating to a horse as described by yall.
> 
> I just can't. If I ever came to feel that way, I would not even want a horse.
> 
> To me, the horse is one of the deepest, most sincere, and most sensitive animals on the face of the earth. More So than us humans for certain.
> 
> Beam me up Scotty. Hondo too!


I understand how you feel Hondo. I do.

I have a feeling that your horse hondo and my mother's mare belle are kindred souls. Belle is so easy to handle. Just an absolute breeze. A can do no wrong horse. That is what makes her perfect for my mother.

Some of you may wonder why I have an attitude similar to the one in my last post... it is because I have been sorely frustrated with the "be not ever harsh" philosophy some are able to keep and use. There are countless horses I have worked with that this philosophy does work on.

But with Shan, a 'be not ever harsh' attitude only brought me a lot of tears. As one trainer I apprenticed for told me (back when I was 'be not ever harsh' and never gave her the correction she needed), Shan loved me but she didn't respect me. Not in the slightest.

A few examples of how I got to where I am today... 

Shan used to be a chronic kicker. Mainly at strange horses. She would not just kick if they got too close to her hind, no... she would head straight towards them and outright kick the horse for no reason. I remember one group trail ride from hades. I was doing my best to keep her out of the way of the other horses and stick in one place with her buddy. I was fighting her tooth and nail just to keep her away from the other horses. At one point I finally lost control of her a bit, my hand slipped on the rein, and next thing I knew she zipped straight over to the closest horse and kicked him. I felt horrible, absolutely awful. Now I know that this was an outward display of her own inner nervousness, but that wasn't thought about and could be of little use at the time. My horse was always pointed to as the devil mare, "female dog", and other things. It made me feel like a complete failure because I could not control my horse who really seemed just spiteful, mean, and out to get the other horses.

I called it her horse phobia, as she would go into a full bronc freakout episode just from sighting a strange horse riding out in the desert (she was always with buddies on the trail, so it wasn't from isolation anxiety).

Another example is her old leading vice. She would very often twist her head around and start running off while you were trying to lead her. If you held on, you got dragged. No amount of bribery or sweet talk would make her stop. Because of this, one time she got away from me and nearly ran into a busy road (thank God someone caught her!).

All of these problems and more were solved when that trainer who said "she loves you, but she doesn't respect you" restarted us from the ground up and started dealing with Shan's nasty attitude. This involved what would probably be considered a CA style round pen retraining. That was difficult at first because she had picked up a habit of charging at you with teeth bared because she had tried it before to get out of work and it intimidated me and I backed down. It took me a couple years to work through all of these terrible habits both her and I had, and a couple years of having a different attitude about things and realizing it's not all rainbows and unicorns. But I am so glad that I stuck with it and got see what an amazing horse Shan turned into. If I hadn't, I know she may have eventually ended up on the meat truck, as people don't desire to deal with these dangerous horses.

I love Shan, but I'll be honest, she reminds me a bit of a ghetto bully. If you don't stand up to her, she can, does, and will shove you around, drag you on the lead, pin her ears, bare her teeth, etc.

So yes, I DO get stung a bit when people insist that you should never have to take a whip to any horse's rump, never have to give any harsh correction. I WISH it was all rainbows and unicorns with horses, but no amount of wishing or trying or TLC made Shan stop acting like the wicked witch of the west. She had to be stood up to. She was a bully, plain and simple, but a bully with a thousand pounds to throw around. She is much more gentle and ladylike these days, and still loves me to pieces (as shown when I'm standing next to her with DH nearby, she pins her ears at DH and tells him to shove off and get away from me, lol. If he stands there with her alone, she's fine and she likes him. If I'm there... nope!), but now she respects me too.
@gottatrot met me in person, saw my demeanor, saw me ride a very, very sensitive and hot arab. I think she could attest to me not being your 'cowboy up' style of rider. Just because I'm aware that some horses need a harsh correction and to be stood up to once in a while, doesn't mean that I'm incapable of adapting to other horses needs. Some need a very firm hand, some need a very soft hand. I definitely do not recommend a mustang for anyone who wants to 'be not ever harsh'. My mother is that kind of person, and there is nothing wrong with that. She also has the wisdom though to not condemn me for giving Shan a smack on the hindquarters (probably because she has handled Shan before, and admits she is not very comfortable or capable handling her). If you're stubborn and pig-headed and want a horse that will be loyal to kingdom come though, mustangs are perfect.

I've made Shan sound like a holy terror. It's true, she used to be that way. And she WILL be that way, or slowly become that way, with anyone who will not stand up to her. But for those who 'prove themselves' to her, she is the most loyal, loving, athletic, brave, incredible, amazing animal. She would walk through fire if I asked her to, and I attribute that to her strong will and presence of mind.


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## Hondo

Well, @horseluvr2524, I just dunno. Ray in my above post had a fighter, biter, kicker that sounded much like Shan, but with the help of Tom Dorrance it sounds like he found another way.

Maybe he could have with Shan, maybe not.

CA's methods obviously work. And my unsupported opinion is that likely they will work on most horses. But then so did the cowboy ways of old.

I think maybe sometimes people that wish to use soft ways with horses get it wrong and wind up teaching a horse to be a horse such as Shan was.

Don't know if this was the case, but everything I've read seems to indicate a spoiled horse is a trainer's nightmare. It'd be interesting to read what Ray would do with a spoiled horse such as Shan seemed to be. Maybe the answer is out there.

I've read enough of your posts to know that you did not cowboy Shan and go Western with her. But it does sound like you had to use a little fear factor in there. Maybe it's necessary when a horse has been taught wrong stuff but at the point I am, I just do not want a horse to respond to me out of fear. Well, except when I was chasing Molly around the field throwing a halter and lead at her. But that's another story.

As far as Hondo being a bomb proof horse for your mother, a 60 year old lady born and raised on this ranch who can outride half the cowboys in the county declared Hondo unsafe to ride above a walk. I wanted him and was allowed to use him on probation. He was one of seven that were being sold. He would likely have wound up in some slaughter as he had this huge ugly sarcosis in his ear.

He is the only horse one 35 YO on the ranch has ever gotten out from under. He is always on alert but he rarely does the four legged brace which used to be done multiple times during every ride.

And mustangs. They are of course just a bunch of feral wild horses of various breeds with a mustang not being a breed but just another word for feral.

Rimmey came from a wild feral herd on a reservation. He was severly mishandled and abused by the previous owner. He is very dicy under a stern hand. Difficult to shoe. He has been sort of cast off and I like him. He has hauled 11 loads of salt for me last year. He was so head shy. I can wave my hands all around his head now. He was bad with his feet. I can walk out into the middle of the field where he is grazing and trim his feet without a hitch.

Just recently his personality has been changing to something similar at times to Dragon's. Poking into everything, picking up stuff apparently just to see it drop. And he is feeling very free about violating MY space. I actually have no space and any of the three are at all times welcome to stick their nose in my face. Well, unless I have a reason for them not to and they will respond to a gentle pushing away.

But Rimmey was not a Shan. Not sure what I would do with a Shan. From the sounds of all that commented on her it does sound as though you have done well.

As I was frequently told by the ranch when first bombarding them with questions, all horses are different.


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> I think maybe sometimes people that wish to use soft ways with horses get it wrong and wind up teaching a horse to be a horse such as Shan was.


Thank you for your kind words. I have done the best that I can with what I know, which is all I have always done, and always strive to learn more. I will never say that I don't make mistakes, and will be the first to admit that there have been times I have delivered a correction where one was not warranted, or been too harsh when not needed. The point of my post was only to explain why I am irked by people who demand you need not ever correct a horse.

Your sentence above is true. However, what you fail to specify, and what many 'gentle method' people and 'liberty training' people (I am a fan of both by the way) fail to specify is what is the correct technique for applying such method. The problem is that it is something that can't be taught. It is learned through experience. It is a feel, a presence, a vocal tone, the embodiment of gentle firmness. You can't very well teach that. Try as you might, it is nigh impossible. It is a self-awareness, self-esteem, the physical manifestation of how you view yourself and your spirit in and of itself. You can tell someone to BE confident, but you can't explain HOW to be confident. It is the difference between someone who walks with an air of maturity and confidence, the air of a leader, and someone who walks with cowardice or fear or any other emotion. Not to brag on myself, but merely to explain: I have been told that I have the confident, leader presence, which is in and of itself also calm, reassuring, and mature. I believe it is Shan who gave me such a presence of mind and self-confidence. It is due to the way that I carry myself that I have been told numerous times that I look much older than I am. Many of those people told me it is because of the way I carry myself.

Hondo, have you ever seen Frederic Pignon? I love to watch him. I have to go at the moment so have to cut this post short, but if you have a minute, I suggest looking him up. Watch his videos, then watch Jean-Francois Pignon. To some people, they look the same. To me, there is a glaring difference between the two, their demeanor, and the way they interact with their horses.

I'll be back later to read responses


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## gottatrot

I really like all the above posts, the one by @Reiningcatsanddogs is very good.
But this one has a lot to comment on.



horseluvr2524 said:


> Some of you may wonder why I have an attitude similar to the one in my last post... it is because I have been sorely frustrated with the "be not ever harsh" philosophy some are able to keep and use. There are countless horses I have worked with that this philosophy does work on.


There are so many reasons a horse might not want to work with us. The horse @Hondo describes that went to work with Dorrance was fearful. I agree that I also don't want a horse to work with me out of fear. But I've met horses that did not have any problem with fear, whatsoever. Not ever. 

One the most difficult ones I've worked with was a Mustang, and I think some of them have a unique combination of genetics that give them the hard-headedness of the Spanish bloodlines (from what I've heard, some of the Iberian type horses can be very dull - which to me is a way to describe a horse that needs quite a lot of pressure either physical or mental to get through to the horse). 

If a horse is not afraid, not of you or anything else, then something else is motivating them. 
I'm not against being heavy-handed when necessary. My issues are with meting out punishment the horse doesn't understand, with punishing fear, with going for a one-size-fits-all solution without figuring out why a horse might act a certain way, and I am absolutely against causing physical harm. I've seen people striking horses with pieces of metal over joints, punishing to the point of bleeding, taking hide off, things like that. 

But no, gentleness is not the solution for everything.

This is also true when handling difficult humans. It's especially well illustrated with patients going through delirium. My default is to always try sweet talk and coaxing at first. But with some people, this doesn't work at all. Then you might have to stand up tall, glare at the person and say, "DO NOT HIT!" in a loud voice. Some people respond much better to an authoritative figure. Some people will listen to women and not men, or vice versa. It's about what works.

The little Mustang Bibi that I worked with for a couple of years was probably a horse similar to Shan. Another QH I knew named Cherry was also of a similar temperament. They did not respond to gentle, subtle, or anything else. As I've described before, Bibi would try to attack you (and other horses) if you showed any sign of weakness. She had never, ever been mistreated. It was something she was born with. She came to my friends as a yearling, unhandled and somehow feeling superior to every other creature in the world. 

If you walked into her field, she'd come for you. Horses had taught her that she could do this, not humans. The humans stood up to her except for on the rare occasion we didn't have protective equipment with us, in which case we ran for safety.

Bibi became very well behaved with very firm handling. She did get smacked with crops and whips quite a lot in her training process. She had to know we could harm her if we wished, because she did not respect anything less than that. Most horses would not fight back, just run, but we did not let her in with Booker because we thought neither one was likely to back down and they might seriously hurt or kill one another. 

I've met other horses that were aggressive because of fear or poor handling, but Bibi was not one of them. She'd go through electric fences and take the hit if she wanted grass on the other side. We'd watch her get ready, steel herself and then run for it. You could see her jerk when the shock hit (she was scooting under a low wire), and then immediately start grazing happily on the other side. 

We found her a home with someone who had dealt with a difficult stallion for years as their only horse. They wanted another only horse, and we told them exactly how aggressive she was. I hope it worked out fine. She was very bold under saddle and would go anywhere alone.

We have to see the bigger picture, as humans. We can't just let horses do whatever, otherwise Halla would just gallop into big holes in the sand, flip over and injure herself and me. We know what will stretch them, help them learn, keep them safe, etc. But this is different for each horse and requires different techniques and handling. One of the most important qualities a horseman can have is flexibility. The path changes constantly, each horse is completely unique. 

I can't condemn anyone for giving a horse back what he is asking for, because I have ridden Booker, the horse who needed his "daily beating" as his owner joked. He literally will keep pulling the reins from your hands until you give him a smack on the neck or a good yank. Once you do, he settles down and works. If you don't, he'll continue that the whole ride. It's like he's not secure until he knows you're willing to give him a little discipline, and then he's satisfied that you're worth going along with. 
He's another one that has learned to be rough on purpose, as @bsms describes. He does a rough trot if he's unhappy, and smooths out when you get him into a working mode/mood. 

The little video I made recently had a song at the end that was an inside joke for myself. The lyrics keep saying, "Steady me," and it seemed humorous to think of trying to steady Halla, and I was also getting a mental picture of times I've seen people on horses that were not doing anything too bad but the rider was saying, "Steady, steady, whoa, whoa."


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## bsms

Bandit certainly doesn't need a daily beating. He seems to be turning into a very ordinary horse. Since he nearly bucked a life-long rider off in Oct 2015 and used to do some fine spins and sideways runs when afraid, becoming ordinary would be a very good thing.

I think he'll end up like Cowboy, only taller. Confident, able to handle tough spots, but wanting a rider who understands give and take. A horse who will leave you no doubt when he is displeased, but not one who is going to explode. And a horse you can trust when things get rough. 

I believe in giving horses *freedom within boundaries*. Without boundaries, the horse is a loose cannonball. And often fearful. To set boundaries, though, one needs to be tough enough to enforce those boundaries. But if they ARE boundaries, then the horse MUST be given freedom to make decisions and mistakes within them.

That then brings me back to "*Mutually Acceptable Compromises*". If you won't set boundaries, the horse has no reason to compromise. But if you don't give the horse freedom, the horse cannot search for one acceptable to you both.

You don't tell the horse to do D. You tell him choices A & B are unacceptable to you, but C, D & E are ok. And if the horse invents F, and F is OK, then you praise him for doing F and don't worry that he didn't choose D instead.

Boundaries keep us safe, or get us home in time for one's wife to get to work on time while you take over watching the grandson. Freedom within those boundaries allows the horse to move, feel and think, and to be a partner.

Other examples of compromises: You choose the speed, I'll choose the direction. Did that with Mia many times. Or you can choose to slow and grab a bite now, but focus in a few minutes when I need you to haul my butt out of the wash. That is one my wife frequently does with Cowboy. Or the other day: You choose the speed with which we go down this wash, but I choose that we DO go down it. Canter if you wish. If it makes you feel safe. But don't turn and run.

Freedom within boundaries. Giving the horse REAL choices, but not accepting ALL choices. Compromises, but ones both horse and rider deem fair.


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## horseluvr2524

Wonderful post @gottatrot ! I agree with all of it.

For some reason, there are people out there who think that being firm and causing physical harm (as in the examples you mentioned, hitting with metal, beating bloody, etc. I am so glad to never have witnessed such a thing as I would have taken down the offender in short order with a beating, never mind the repercussions of that action), these people think that those two things are the same thing. They are not, and far from it. I like to think I am someone who cares deeply about the horse's welfare, being that I was ready to give up riding completely if I couldn't find a saddle that wouldn't hurt my horse, and that I always take care of the horse before even allowing myself a drink of water, and that I always slow for rocky areas (often every thirty feet, so we do a lot of transitions) so they won't chip their hooves, cut their legs, or slip.

Bibi is an interesting case. In fact, she sounds even worse than Shan ever was at her worst. All of Shan's horse phobia and social anxiety went away when she spent a summer on a pasture with a herd of mares. She was a changed horse, and I was so delighted to find that I didn't have to warn passersby every three seconds that she might go out of her way to kick their horse.

However, this was exactly like Shan: 

"Bibi became very well behaved with very firm handling. She did get smacked with crops and whips quite a lot in her training process. She had to know we could harm her if we wished, because she did not respect anything less than that."

Definitely could not have said it better myself. Shan also was never abused, she was spoiled. And she was made one hundred times worse by my ignorant handling. I say somewhat jokingly, but also truthfully and seriously, and tell people to name a vice/accident/bad behavior. Shan has done most of them, short of flipping over backwards.

However, I wouldn't trade or change any of it. What Shan taught me is invaluable and far more than I could ever learn from any trainer or lesson. I have yet to meet and work with a horse that I could not handle since owning her, and still yet to train one that did not blossom during our partnership.

This past weekend, we (accidentally) rode a trail whose terrain reminded me of the Tevis Cup. I was amazed at Shan and her absolute faith and trust in me, and how she just kept going even when she was ready to quit. She lead the way into places that Belle refused. And she quit literally stopped both of us from falling over the edge of a cliff. She is an incredible horse and really gave me every fiber of her being that day. And for all that, I really feel like I must be doing something right.

I'll post on that ride later this week. To be honest, I'm still mentally recovering from it.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Shan also was never abused, she was spoiled. And she was made one hundred times worse by my ignorant handling. I say somewhat jokingly, but also truthfully and seriously, and tell people to name a vice/accident/bad behavior. Shan has done most of them, short of flipping over backwards.
> 
> However, I wouldn't trade or change any of it. What Shan taught me is invaluable and far more than I could ever learn from any trainer or lesson. I have yet to meet and work with a horse that I could not handle since owning her, and still yet to train one that did not blossom during our partnership.


It will be interesting to hear about your ride. It sounds like you've done a great job with Shan.
I agree that the difficult horses have been invaluable to me. And I've never disliked a difficult horse.

Bibi wasn't even spoiled! No one let her get away with things! There was no excuse for her. Well, I can't say that. It's quite possible she had some kind of reproductive issue that made her aggressive. 

Did I mention I loved Bibi? If she were not only 13.2 hands, one of us would have bought her from her owners. She was bold, had impeccable balance, and some of the best hooves I've ever had the pleasure to work with. 
Trimming her hooves, I'd hold her hoof in one hand and the nippers and crop in another. It was a timing thing - quickly grasp the nippers with the thumb of the hand holding the hoof up, release the nippers and swing back with the hand holding the crop to deter the teeth that were coming. Sometimes she'd relax for a second, then quickly yank a hind away and cow kick you with it super fast. Funny, I've only known two horses that cow kicked (sideways kick) and both were grulla Mustangs.
Check out how thick her hoof wall was in comparison to the size of her hoof:
























I'll always remember the day I was galloping madly down the beach on Bibi, her legs churning underneath us and when I glanced over I saw my friend slowly loping along next to us on her QH. Speed is relative.
She always seemed like a happy horse, perhaps you can see in her expression how smug and proud of herself she is.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> If a horse is not afraid, not of you or anything else, then something else is motivating them....
> 
> But no, gentleness is not the solution for everything....
> 
> But *this is different for each horse and requires different techniques and handling.* One of the most important qualities a horseman can have is flexibility. The path changes constantly, *each horse is completely unique*.


There are also horses out there that will give as good as they get and won’t ever give in. Oliver has demonstrated that he is one of these. Escalation of a situation with him is not the way to go because it just keeps going and going and neither of you get anywhere except probably the ER. You go as big as you can and he will do you one better.

In the end this 1100 lb animal without fear and seemingly immune to pain, if you put him into the fight mindset and you continue in that mindset, will win no matter how hard you “punish” him. Old Stallion habits die hard, even once the hormones are gone.

You have to find a way to get his mind with you or you will never get his body. I suspect, knowing the round about way that Dorrance and Hunt can sometimes write, that was the point of @Hondo’s post about Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.

I can relate. Back when I was a kid and my mother would spank me, it worked until I was about 8 when I realized there were two types of pain. Pain that signaled that something was wrong and pain that just hurt but, wasn’t signaling an injury (think childbirth). When she spanked me it was the second kind of pain and I learned to ignore it. I distinctly remember turning to her and telling her “hit me again, that didn’t hurt”; even dad’s belt didn’t do the trick. Corporal punishment short of actually inflicting injury, was no longer effective for me. They needed to find another way to motivate me to do the right thing. 

Relatedly, I once took one of my children in a panic to the doctor because he had slipped and fallen on the concrete in the garage and slammed his head so hard that I felt the vibrations through the concrete through my shoes even though I was on the other side of the garage. He got up and walked away like nothing had happened.

I thought something was neurologically wrong with his pain response. Dr. told me that some people just had an extreme tolerance to pain and since he didn’t appear to have a concussion, not to worry too much.. This same child when he was 19 and going through USAF boot camp, did the last week (hell week), including the gas chamber with a confirmed case of double pneumonia in all four lung lobes, for no other reason than he wanted to graduate on time. The base infirmary said he should be in the hospital but, left it up to him. He finished second in his class. If you have ever had pneumonia to that degree, the simple act of breathing results in sharp pains with each shallow breath. He ran the obstacle course like that, well under time.

It wasn’t that long ago, that I believed that every horse responded well to certain traditional means of physical “discipline” or correction one way or the other when misbehaving. If they didn't then you just weren't doing it right or needed to try a different physical correction.

Oliver changed that perception for me and thus my "attitude". He is one horse for which there is no other option but to as Tom Dorrance says “get with him first so that he will get with you and then, you can get together.” You do anything else and you will come out on the losing end and many a man stronger than me has tried.

He has forced me to find another way to work with not just him but, as a matter of routine with most horses.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot RE: "It's quite possible she had some kind of reproductive issue that made her aggressive."

Comment: I recently read that a tumor on the ovary can cause an overproduction of testosterone which can result in stallion like behavior in mares. Bibi knowingly running under an electric fence made me like her.

@horseluvr2524 RE: It is due to the way that I carry myself that I have been told numerous times that I look much older than I am.

Comment: Had to chuckle at this. If you see how I sometimes walk when first out of bed in the morning I'm not sure you'd want to copy that carriage! 

Lots of good stuff in all these posts.

It's a lot about knowing one's own heart, one's own deep down heart, and then the heart of the horse, deep down. And the realization that once one's own deep down heart is found, that the horse has known it all along. 

Someone said that being around horses is the ultimate form of self awareness training.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @gottatrot RE: "It's quite possible she had some kind of reproductive issue that made her aggressive."
> 
> Comment: I recently read that a tumor on the ovary can cause an overproduction of testosterone which can result in stallion like behavior in mares. Bibi knowingly running under an electric fence made me like her.



Not just tumors. Look up PCOS (Polycystic ovarian syndrome). 

I was diagnosed with it almost 20 years ago. It took 12 miscarriages, 7 years and a very persistent reproductive endocrinologist willing to think outside of the box to get the right diagnosis. I didn't manifest with overt outward physical symptoms so no other doctor could figure out what was going on because I didn't fit in the little symptom box! 

Each ripening egg produces estrogen. If you have enough eggs ripening (in my case over 60 a month) then the body converts the excess estrogen into testosterone and spikes that hormone well above "normal" levels. It makes you not only irritable (like constant PMS) but also aggressive (like the infamous "roid rage"). Not a good combo!


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> There are also horses out there that will give as good as they get and won’t ever give in.


That would be Rimmey. I would never ever think of actually punishing Rimmey. I know what he's been through and can just tell that any wrong move could send me back farther than when I started. I do have thoughts of riding him someday but it will be after at least another year of slow progression. He's changing dramatically but he's still waiting for that other shoe to drop. It'll take a while for him to conclude I'm not that shoe.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> That would be Rimmey. I would never ever think of actually punishing Rimmey. I know what he's been through and can just tell that any wrong move could send me back farther than when I started. I do have thoughts of riding him someday but it will be after at least another year of slow progression. He's changing dramatically but he's still waiting for that other shoe to drop. It'll take a while for him to conclude I'm not that shoe.


I think Oliver and I figured out that we were both “different” from the get go. I went about ground training him using the principles of Mark Rashid which I found worked well with him. Then, when we started under saddle, I employed the help of a trainer to help me and things with Oliver started to change.

He seemed to be able to be differentiating between me and someone else riding him. Things like giving me a wonderful lope in the arena with a gentle first ask and then absolutely refusing to give it to anyone else no matter what they did. He’d give me the moon and then be a turd for the trainers. I watched every rider, every moment they were working with him. He was never “sent” for training thank-goodness because knowing him as I know him now it would have been tragic for all parties I think.

It wasn’t until he hurt someone that it really hit me as to what the differences between me and the other riders was. I didn't need to physically fight with him (I had nothing to prove) and so he didn't need to fight with me. He just gave it up when I asked, with all the respect due to an animal ten times my weight.

Oliver is a strong willed horse. He is not your easy-breezy go along to get along type horse. You need to afford him respect in order to receive it. In many aspects, Oliver and I are similar. You want a fight? Good. I love a good fight. Not something that is conducive to a long standing peaceful marriage or riding relationship! But, it takes two to tango!

Something I learned from my husband; when someone picks a fight, don’t give them what they are expecting. He has an uncanny way of diffusing me by making me think rather than spewing emotion filled tirades. I took what he taught me and applied it to my horse. Make 'em think. Be firm and communicate your thoughts but, always be respectful and bring the emotions down.


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## bsms

At least when discussing Bandit, I wasn't talking about using pain to make him do something. In the end, really, I dug my heels into him. Once.

That is obviously a hard cue, but it is hardly a very painful one.

We had a heated discussion, but we didn't actually do spins a la Clinton Anderson's 'disengaging' a horse. Doing that sort of 'disengaging' is something I was taught while taking lessons and is a piece of paid professional instruction I've largely rejected. It might work well for some horses, but it hasn't worked well for any of mine.

BTW, this is the Clinton Anderson video I'm referring to:






What I really was doing was a variation of a Tom Robert's theme: "This will profit you. This will profit you not." Turning around and leaving was not acceptable to me. Find another answer. That is in line with something another paid instructor taught - that you cannot make a good choice for the horse, but you can tell him the choices he is making at the moment are incorrect.

Kicking my heels into Bandit, once, was shouting. But it was nothing like using a crop or whip on him, or getting after him with spurs on - both things experienced riders told me to do with Mia. Spurs, as some very experienced riders on HF have told me, can be better than a crop because it is easier to keep your balance using spurs than repeatedly hitting a horse with a crop.

I don't plan on ever finding out. Tried the "Bigger Whip" thing with Mia many years ago and never tried it again. Although I did carry one for a long time, and once or twice a year would hit MY leg with it. The sound of it seemed to impress Mia without making her upset.

I do expect Bandit will continue to sometimes get upset with me. His previous owner told me, "_He's a kid's horse. Except for when he isn't!_" When he really wants to do something different from what I really want to do, he may throw a fit. But as I discovered soon after I got him, unlike Mia, his anger doesn't last for 30 minutes straight. He can get ****ed, then get over it 1-2 minutes later - which makes him a much easier and safer ride than Mia.

I haven't met hundreds of horses and wouldn't try to tell anyone what they needed to do with an extreme horse. Mia was an extreme horse - one who is at the far edge of the Bell Curve - but I only learned some things that worked with her and a number that did not. I can give some advice to someone with a Mia-like extreme horse.

But Bandit strikes me as well inside the normal range of behavior. He doesn't have mystical sensitivity. He isn't a lightening bolt on four legs. He won't strike anyone as demon-possessed. He's pretty much...just a horse. And that is not a bad thing at all.

He had a lot of fear. Still has some. I think that is typical. I think a LOT of horses function with inner tension and inner fears, and are only too submissive to make an issue out of it. I think that is why lots get low-grade ulcers. I've seen estimates of sports horses having ulcers at a rate of 90%. There are many possible causes, but I think far more horses are internally afraid than are externally afraid.

And I think they are internally afraid, not because they are prey animals trying not to reveal weakness to a predator, but because their rider doesn't listen to their fear. Why talk if no one listens? Many horses spend their lives being trapped. I was saddened to see a trainer I used to like say the goal of all horse training was total obedience.

I'm more interested in Slim Pickens type of obedience. He was known for doing some impressive jumps in full western tack on a horse named Buck. Sim knew nothing about jumping. He said he'd show the planned jump to Buck. If Buck said OK, they'd do the stunt. If Buck said no, Slim would tell the director to make some changes. Slim said he never tried a jump that Buck wasn't willing to try, and Buck never failed to get both of them over.

But Buck was given a real choice. He wasn't trapped.

Coming home, Bandit sometimes NEEDS to go somewhere or cross something he doesn't really feel like crossing. He sometimes has the right of refusal, but we sometimes just need to move ahead. Somehow. Or we'll never get home, because all routes home will have spots he doesn't like. There are options for HOW we cross those spots. But I think I have the right and responsibility to sometimes say, "_Oh yes you CAN!_"

The other day, if Bandit had resisted with enough force, I might have needed to back off and say, "_OK, maybe today you CAN'T_" and find a different way. I've made mistakes before and will again. But the fact that he DID is pretty good evidence he COULD, and that he'd do it with one kick of my heels is pretty good evidence it wasn't too far outside his comfort zone.


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## Hondo

There is something that has puzzled me for quite some time now. What exactly in detail is meant by various people when they refer to correcting a horse?


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> There is something that has puzzled me for quite some time now. What exactly in detail is meant by various people when they refer to correcting a horse?


That's the tricky thing of it. "Correcting a horse" is a universal term that means different things to different people. It's like saying "I work in a kitchen" or "I work in an office" without specifying what you actually do.

For myself, I'm only as firm as necessary. Most horses will never need the degree of firmness that I (very rarely now) have had to use with Shan. If I don't know a horse, I start out 'arab soft' (which 'level 1' is usually just a firm tone of voice) and escalate from there as needed.

As to the purpose of correcting a horse, I use it to stop a behavior. That's it. It's simply the wrong answer buzzer. I don't enjoy taking a whip to any horse's rump, but I do what I have to do to get the message across.

There was a yearling filly I used to work with. She was HUGE for a yearling. At least 15 hands and built like a tank. She had picked up a habit of charging, rearing, and snapping at anyone that came into her stall. She wouldn't do it anywhere else, only in the stall.

My first thought was to take her to the round pen for ground work. Her owner said she was perfect in the round pen, which I found out for myself. Then I took her back to her stall so I could experience it myself. Sure enough, I walked in with the halter and she went straight to pinning her ears and heading for me. Without time to think and acting only on instinct, I went to her hindquarters on the side and started shoving into her as hard as I could, causing her to move in tight circles around the stall. No matter what she tried, she could not get to me as I stayed in the same place and right close to her. I learned this method from another horse, who would stand and push in the same place to avoid getting kicked.

After about thirty seconds of this, she stopped and had her thinking cap on. I ran my hand along her as I walked forward and stopped next to her head, and then calmly placed the halter and lead on. Her owner stood there in complete shock and was saying "HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!". I explained the mechanics of what I did, and she wanted to try it. So she went in, and in three seconds flat the filly backed her into a corner and reared up straight over her head. Her hooves were two inches from the lady's head and I thought she was going to smash her skull in.

I advised the owner to always carry the flag (plastic bag on a short lunge whip) with her, as the filly respected/feared it and would back off. Using that, she was able to go in and halter the filly safely.

My 'diagnosis' on this horse was that she had been bullied by the other horses. I asked the owner if this was the case, and she said yes. The paddocks they had were very small (keep in mind, this is the desert, it's amazing they had grass at all) and left nowhere for a horse to truly get away. My thought was that she had figured out that her stall was HER place, and she was allowed to decide who could be there and who could not. She was queen in her stall. I do believe that it is possible that she learned to bully from other horses. She just had not yet been taught that she is not allowed to bully people.

Over time, the situation much improved. The owner said she would stop turning her out with the bully horses, and she was able to continue going in the filly's stall and haltering her safely.


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## Hondo

Here are some quotes by Willis J Powell followed by some of my ponderings.

Begin Quotes:

...., I reflected upon the nature of horses in general, many of which, when confined, appeared to fear nothing: notwithstanding this, the result of my reflections was, that fear, much more than anything else, was the cause of their resistance; of the resistance of even of the fiercest; for, although the latter would run at a man, as well at any other thing, when confined,.........

..... To conclude; Take away FEAR- Inspire Confidence-FAMILIARIZE.......

..... Having thus shown how one must proceed, to break the second and third class of horses, I now retrocede to the first class, which appear to fear nothing. .......

....., it is very dangerous for any one to go in where they are; for, if you step back or try to get out of their way, when they run at you, they will be sure to bite, kick, or stamp you under their feet.....

End Quotes

Since he seems to make clear that even the most vicious horses are reacting to fear, a thought struck me. About all animals, including horses, have in their repertoire choices of flight, fight, or freeze with various amounts of predilections to each.

I wondered if the default button on the vicious horses could somehow be set to fight as the first response to fear. There was no knowledge of fight or flight in the days of Powell.

A search on our friend Google at the first offering had some 2010 research on Testosterone vs Cortisol levels, " Testosterone vs Cortisol: Winner Determines Fight or Flight - See more at: Testosterone vs Cortisol: Winner Determines Fight or Flight

The whole idea of these mean, vicious, dangerous horses being simply fear based like all others just makes so much sense to me.

I will be reading and thinking about this more.


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## gottatrot

Great story @horseluvr2524.

It seems that the term "correcting" a horse is a little difficult to use right. To be accurate, I'd think it would only make sense for me to say I was correcting a horse if I were changing something wrong he was doing to something right. Such as his feet was slipping on the edge of a ditch, so I moved him a foot over to where he could walk safely. 

As was said, it is used to mean so many various things by people, from painful violent acts like hitting a horse with a chain to giving a half halt. So a very vague term.

Thinking about the idea about fear...I can't say all resistance is fear based, unless you consider the idea of missing a meal to be fear. I know sometimes Amore resists the idea of a nice walk because she wants to keep eating. All resistance can be done away with if she thinks there is better food where we are going.

Let's say Bibi, being a small horse was fearful of the idea of letting anything tell her what to do, in case that meant she would get picked on and injured or killed because of her size. That could explain her aggression. 

I'm still not sure how a person could have in her case avoided meeting her moves to bite and kick without letting her know somehow that those were not acceptable. I will say we tried some things such as keeping her moving, lunging and round pen work. Rerouting her would work in some situations, such as if she had a halter on and turned to bite, and you swung her head so she couldn't reach you. 

But at some point we wanted to enter her field where she was loose, handle her for grooming, feeding and hooves, and we couldn't just always avoid her moves to squash, kick or bite us. She threatened, briefly, and then went in physically if you didn't back right off. So if you didn't get out of the way you couldn't ignore her or she'd make her mark. 

I have to say we thought we'd change her behavior quickly and that she'd give up after being thwarted for a time, but it took quite a long time to change her behaviors, and I'd still never trust her completely. After a few months, her attempted bites were not such hard chomps, and more like small nips.

There is something different with her and a couple other aggressive horses I worked with. They wanted to assert their will, but they didn't want to fight. You can't fight a horse that wants to fight as @Reiningcatsanddogs has said. There is a huge difference between a horse that tries to bite you, you say "no," and they stop, even briefly, verses a horse that tries to bite you, you say "no," and the horse sees that as a challenge to up the ante. Then you can't use that technique with the horse.

In the worst cases, where nothing short of harm will stop the horse, I believe the solution is very slow and long term, with avoidance of handling the horse except for in very controlled situations, and then a long process of getting the horse to accept handling one small step at a time. The horse might have to be sedated for things like hooves and medical treatment for a period of time until his behavior is modified.


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...As to the purpose of correcting a horse, I use it to stop a behavior. That's it. It's simply the wrong answer buzzer. I don't enjoy taking a whip to any horse's rump, but I do what I have to do to get the message across...


"the wrong answer buzzer"

An excellent description.



> Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”
> 
> Encourage and discourage is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.
> 
> But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it can include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”
> 
> It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:
> 
> “That will profit you – that will profit you not.”
> 
> These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.
> 
> “To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.
> 
> “To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.
> 
> This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.
> 
> It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that. - Tom Roberts, The Young Horse


 In some of the lessons I took, one exercise was to get the horse to put one of its front hooves - and the instructor would say which - into a tire on the ground. Horses apparently disliked doing this.

It would sometimes take the entire hour. Or more. For one student and one horse. The other students would continue the lesson. It was very frustrating being the one person on the horse who needed to get the horse to put its right hoof inside the tire!

But the exercise taught an important point. We don't have a lot of tools, from horseback, to tell a horse what to do, and even fewer to make him do it. We can set boundaries, block unhelpful actions, or tell them "_You've guessed the wrong answer, please try again._": "the wrong answer buzzer".

How much force does it take to say "You've guessed wrong"? Only the horse knows. It is like a bit. I've had people tell me a Tom Thumb curb bit invariably results in a horse with a gaping mouth, terrified and confused. But Mia & Bandit and my other two will both ride quietly in one. The last time I put Bandit in one, he stuck his head down to nibble some grass. Pulling up, it took far more force to get his head away from the grass than I have EVER used with him while riding. And when he lifted his head, it went to shoulder level. Then he sighed, and agreed to start moving again. HE decided how much force it took. Not me.

You use just enough force to say, "Wrong answer". Not enough to punish, although you may be using 'punishment' level force. Because the HORSE chose that level. You do just enough, and no more. And the horse tells you what that means.


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## bsms

Just want to add: For corrections, you say "Wrong answer", not "Bad horse!"


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## Hondo

An additional comment I should have made about Willis J. Powell's quotes:

All of those quotes were regarding horses that had never been handled at all by humans other than capturing them.

He talks about dealing with refractory horses that have been gentled by means other than his own in another chapter. So the quotes would only apply today to newly captured mustangs. But still, I think there is some value in the quotes.

And further, he speaks only about gentling a wild horse. He really doesn't deal with with all of the nuances that must be dealt with after gentling and certainly not by the various methods of training employed, which would be almost impossible to cover. He does have a surprising description of NH training methods long before they were called NH. He says the horses do not remain gentle.

And notice that he does not say or claim that ALL resistance is due to fear. He says, "that fear, *much more than anything else*, was the cause of their resistance". Again, referring only to wild horses and certainly not Hondo's desire to not over exert himself going up said glorious mountain trail again.

He is the first writer as far as I know to recognize and write about fear to be the problem it is. Considering that he wrote in 1872, I'd say he was on the leading edge and way ahead of the thought of his time.


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> You use just enough force to say, "Wrong answer". Not enough to punish, although you may be using 'punishment' level force. Because the HORSE chose that level. You do just enough, and no more. And the horse tells you what that means.


:iagree: :loveshower:

*sigh* don't ya just love it when you spend quite a while typing out extensively long posts, and then someone comes along and sums it all up in three sentences, and all you can think is "why couldn't I say it like that?!" :lol:


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...He is the first writer as far as I know to recognize and write about fear to be the problem it is. Considering that he wrote in 1872, I'd say he was on the leading edge and way ahead of the thought of his time.


I'm not sure. Four years earlier, a cavalryman quoted a common French saying:



> "The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - *he defends himself*..."


That would suggest at least some of the idea was already a part of accepted wisdom. I also think Francis Dwyer was more accurate. A horse who is afraid might feel the need to defend himself, but it mainly is rooted in fear of punishment - punishment the horse cannot avoid because


> "...insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform..."


And that is a pretty good description of how you "trap" a horse!

In addition to many French already understanding and accepting this as common knowledge, he wrote:



> "...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances...."


Once again, he cites a common practice among the English - not "desensitizing" but gently acclimatizing the horse to a stressful environment, using rewards and reassurance. I wish a lot of modern trainers, including a lot of NH types, would think about that common practice of the English in the mid-1800s. It wouldn't hurt ME to review it again, too! :think:

He also wrote this:



> "...Rearing would occur much less frequently if it were well understood that it is almost always the last stage of disobedience, and very seldom if ever the first. In fact, its occurrence is evidence of injudicious management of some kind, either from untrained horses being brought into positions for which they are as yet unfitted, or from something being demanded of them that was beyond their power ; or from the rider not knowing how to recognize and subdue the very first symptoms of disobedience; or, finally, from his using violent and intemperate methods of doing so."


Many give Caprilli credit for inventing the Forward Seat, but the truth is many in history had discovered it before him:

1810:










1655:










There are also statues of women playing polo in China around 1000 AD using a forward seat, and a bronze of a Greek jockey using it around 500 BC. Bitless riding was also done before Christ.

I've taken heat for suggesting lessons are not critical, but so much of good riding has been made apparent by horses teaching riders for thousands of years.

I have this vision of a mid-1800s English rider watching Clinton Anderson disengage a scared horse and saying, "Why not dismount and TEACH him it is OK?"


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## horseluvr2524

So here is a tangent, but from what I've seen, this group doesn't mind those...

I was told at one point to never allow a horse to stop and look at something they are spooking at, because then you are acknowledging that it is scary and worth attention. Well, I remember trying this method on Shan, and she did not suffer it well. She always did much better if she was allowed to stop and figure it out herself, and then move on. In that way, she reminds me more of a mule or donkey rather than a horse: she thinks about whether it requires fight or flight, and which one, rather than just reacting. Other horses I've ridden do far better if you just allow them to move past the scary thing rather than make them stand and touch their nose to it as Shan prefers to do.

That is one thing I really love about horses: there is always something new to learn. I never get bored. Each horse is like an intricate puzzlebox that I have to pick apart and figure out what makes them tick. Perhaps I'm biased, but Shan has been the most interesting puzzlebox of them all. The way she thinks, where I can literally stand there and watch her think through a problem, fascinates me.

For example, one afternoon I went to let the horses in after barn chores. I untied and dropped the rope that I put across the aisleway, and stood there waiting for Shan to walk into her stall. Well, she wanted go in, but was blowing and snorting and hesitant. It took me a minute to figure out why, but by the time my brain had processed the situation she had already worked it out and was in her stall. She thought that the rope dropped in loops on the ground was something other than a rope and that she could not step on it. After snorting and sniffing and staring at it, she delicately placed each hoof in the tiny 5" spaces between the rope sections and cavaletti pranced into her stall. A feat great enough to challenge one of those obstacle trail horses.

Just when I think I know everything about her, she will surprise me like that. I think that's why I never run out of things to say about her, and why I can prattle on for hours about her and have little to say about other horses I've worked with. Shan is a constantly changing puzzlebox that only gets smarter and more intricate as time goes on.

Ah, I remember the other thing I wanted to mention. Just because I have little to no leniency when I ask a horse to do something (meaning that when I ask, I expect them to do it) does not mean that I am uncaring or incapable of recognizing when they are unhappy with the activity. That's part of why I have done so many different things with Shan. She was unhappy with some of them. She used to hate jumping with a passion, so I gave that up. Well, I jumped her last week for the first time in two years, and to my delight, she had as much fun popping over it as I did!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I'm not sure. Four years earlier, a cavalryman quoted a common French saying:


A whole four years eh? That would be 1868. I'm afraid I've done poor Willis a disservice. He died in 1848. A reprint of the original book which had no publish date was reprinted in 1872. My bad. In his book he discusses things he did in 1819.

Oh well.

Willis did not mention nary a word regarding how to ride or what seat to use.

He did mention that a horse should be allowed to stop and look at something he is afraid of for 3 or 4 minutes at which time if he is still afraid one should dismount and lead the horse up to the object.

Perhaps this was old hat in his time also.

Regarding: "You use just enough force to say, "Wrong answer". Not enough to punish, although you may be using 'punishment' level force. Because the HORSE chose that level. You do just enough, and no more. And the horse tells you what that means."

I'm still standing here on the corner with my three eyes waiting for Scotty. There is simply no way I could relate to a horse in this manner in a million years. Huge disconnect here.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Regarding: "You use just enough force to say, "Wrong answer". Not enough to punish, although you may be using 'punishment' level force. Because the HORSE chose that level. You do just enough, and no more. And the horse tells you what that means."
> 
> I'm still standing here on the corner with my three eyes waiting for Scotty. There is simply no way I could relate to a horse in this manner in a million years. Huge disconnect here.


Well, there is this conundrum about horses. They can feel a mosquito landing on their skin that I can't feel landing on mine. And they can stand and take full force kicks from other horses and not move away, kicks that have torn my muscle fibers and sent me flying a few feet, feeling immediately nauseous from the pain. 

As @Reiningcatsanddogs describes, there is a mental component to what force is necessary to get through. There are horses, and I know they can feel a mosquito the same as every other horse, and you can be standing there waving your arms and yelling, "Horse! Horse!" and it seems like they don't notice your presence. I can tap my finger on a sensitive horse's chest, or even just wag it at them and have them back up without any training to do so. Just because that is somehow forceful to them. And I can do something 50 times harder than that to a dull horse and have them not seem to notice until I do it 100 times harder. One horse can feel like a butterfly on the end of a line, and another can drag the handler away without any malice. 

I tied up a QH gelding I did not know well and picked up his hoof (trimming per the owner's request). He pulled his hoof away, and I made a bad sound "Ehhh!" and tapped his shoulder with two fingers. That was Arab level communication, quite soft for most horses. His hooves all splayed sideways, he nearly fell down and stood snorting with his head raised. I had to back things off a few notches.
A Percheron gelding I knew just walked around with his head in the clouds, he could be dragging fences behind him in his wake and not notice he'd gone through them. What got through to his notice was magnified from Arab level many, many times. 

To relate in the same way to these two horses would be impossible. You can bring one toward more acceptance of stimulus, and you can bring one more toward lightness. But I don't think they can end up at the same place. But the intention and feel of the handler toward the horse can be the same; the same good will, the same wish to communicate as lightly as possible, the same desire to listen to what the horse has to say. But one horse is like an autistic person with super sensitive hearing, and the other is like a deaf person who can barely hear you at all when you're shouting.


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## bsms

My point in quoting the cavalryman is that he was citing conventional wisdom. He wasn't telling the French something. The French already had a proverb about it. It was a commonly held opinion about why horses act a certain way. The English practice he mentioned was wide-spread in the mid-1800s. It was viewed as normal training in England, although perhaps not in Austria. I'll go ahead and read Powell's book (online), but lots of people in the 1800s were aware of how to work horses without beating them or dominating them. 

And I don't know how anyone can train a horse to do anything without ever saying, "_Wrong answer. Please try again._" Here is a video of someone doing just that, in a way that I find very helpful in preparing a horse to understand a bit:






I could never have stopped Mia (or Bandit) from spinning and running away unless I first made it clear that was the wrong answer to the problem. Bandit would often never make it home unless I tell him, "_Yes, you DO need to cross the next 100 feet of rocky ground even if you do not feel like it._"

When Bandit was grazing in his Tom Thumb curb bit, he wasn't being bad. But when I needed him to start moving again, I had to interrupt his grazing. And it took a HARD pull - much harder than I've used while riding him - to get him to lift his head. I didn't get to choose how much pressure it would take in his mouth to get him to raise his head. He did.

That was a correction. "_What you are doing now is no longer acceptable. We need to get moving again. I know you don't want to, but..._"

If the horse never does anything he doesn't feel like, he isn't your partner. He's your master. I want an equine partner, not an equine master.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Regarding: "You use just enough force to say, "Wrong answer". Not enough to punish, although you may be using 'punishment' level force. Because the HORSE chose that level. You do just enough, and no more. And the horse tells you what that means."
> 
> I'm still standing here on the corner with my three eyes waiting for Scotty. There is simply no way I could relate to a horse in this manner in a million years. Huge disconnect here.


Hondo and all, perhaps this will help.

I worked with Oliver so much to get him to respond to the lightest of cues; it took me a year of focus. Our lightness got to the extent that my trainer upon mounting up and checking our progress within ten seconds told me "No lighter!". He told me if I got Oliver responding any lighter, he as a bridle horse trainer (known for their light hands and subtle leg cues) wouldn't be able to ride him.

I prefer to ride lightly. Really, really, light.

Here is part of the reason I like it. I can “correct” Oliver by using the “normal” pressure most riders would putzing around. Just so you know, since he completed his lightness training, I have never had to kick or hit him. To reiterate that point, I didn’t say I never would if I had to, only that I have not had to in the last couple of years. 

It’s not because he is an easy horse, only that he has been trained to respond to very light cues as a matter of course. His perception of a "normal" cue and a punitive one has changed.

We were up at DH’s grandmother’s fishing cabin with the extended family camping out. Cousins, Aunts, Uncles, second cousins about 200 of us in all. My eldest daughter was about 7 at the time and she and her cousin Patrick decided that they wanted to go down to the lake and catch some frogs. 
Even though they knew the rules that if they went to the lake they had to go with someone over 15 and wear life jackets, they decided to break the rules. The two of them got sneaky, they walked further down the lakeshore to a spot no one could see them alone at the water’s edge.

Long story short, they got busted. Worse yet, they got busted by Patrick’s father, an old-time southern military man and a guy who didn’t mince words, even the four letter type or volume with which he uttered them. 

Patrick was very used to his father’s means of correction. My daughter was not. We could all hear the yelling coming from across the water and then continuing to echo off the trees above the din of 200 people as it got closer to camp, it was so loud.

To @gottatrot’s point, Patrick was walking back into camp with a mischievous smile on his face and my daughter? Her eyes were wide and fear filled, tears were streaming down her face. My daughter was a quivering puddle of ooze while her cousin wasn’t even fazed. My daughter is every bit as strong willed as her cousin, perhaps more (I posted clips from her debut Olympic weight lifting competition a while ago along with some of the trials and tribulations she had to deal with to get there), her perception of correction and punishment however, was very different. 

If all you had to relate to was my daughter’s reaction, you might have thought the “correction” was over the top. Looking at Patrick you might have thought he needed more, like an additional firm crack across the butt to wipe that grin off his face.

My point is that if you were to ride Oliver in the manner that you regularly ride Hondo kindly, chances are you would be “punishing” him without realizing it. The perception of the horse rather than the rider is what ultimately matters. Personality aside, perception can be altered.

Before I allowed my trainer to get on Oliver for the little test spin I asked him to take his spurs off. Ed knows how to correctly use spurs and in all the years I have known him, I never saw him use them even remotely roughly. He gave me a look when I asked; after all this was the same dead to the leg horse that had broken his shoulder and collarbone only a year earlier. I told him to humor me, he wasn’t going to need them. He quickly found out how right I was.

This next point is one that I am sure will be contentious to those of you with difficult horses. 

Oliver first appeared to be a horse who was as professional evaluators put it “Dead to the leg. Hardened mouth, willful and challenging.”. I thought they had him all wrong; he just didn’t know any differently.

It took tons of conscious effort and a lot more time than most people would have taken but, Oliver became a soft, willing, light handed horse. To get him there I had to change the way I thought so that I could change how he thought. If he can feel a fly land on his butt, why not my leg landing equally softly on his barrel?

His personality stayed the same but, the way he processed outside stimulus changed. What changed in him was his perception (the way his brain interpreted sensory information) and as a result, his responses. 

He still can be challenging, a fighter and willful at times but, by doing the work with him that I did (mainly in the round pen and arena), the amount of pressure needed to exact a “correction” went from a solid kick in the ribs to a firm press to communicate the same message.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...This next point is one that I am sure will be contentious to those of you with difficult horses...If he can feel a fly land on his butt, why not my leg landing equally softly on his barrel?....


Arriving here, Bandit's response to the slightest contact with a bit was to throw the anchor overboard and STOP! He wasn't hard-mouthed, but that wasn't the response I wanted.

He also had a lot of "My way or else" type riding. Fair enough - you can't win a race if your horse stops to examine a rock beside the race path. However, he was very submissive - until he felt any further submission might kill him. Then he would respond violently. But no one would have described his as “_Dead to the leg. Hardened mouth, willful and challenging._” If anything, he was the opposite.

I didn't want to deal with the violence of his reactions when he DID get overwhelmed, so my first step was to encourage him to talk. And once he would talk, to get him to participate in the decision-making.

My cues to accelerate are generally a kiss, followed by a light squeeze - if needed. He may refuse, and then I need to consider the reason. If it is because his feet are tired after an hour on our rocky trails...well, maybe a walk is fine after all. Or maybe I need to up the urgency of my request - "_Hey, we're almost home, just give me 200 yards of effort!_" And he often will respond with "OK".

But there are times, and days, where he really isn't too thrilled with riding. If that happens on one of the few days where I can have riding companions and ride out in a group, well...tough. I don't ride as much as I'd like because of difficulty in finding someone to ride with, or because we get very strong winds here between two mountain ranges & I don't like riding in 30 mph winds, or...whatever.

So sometimes I expect him to give me an "OK" level of try even if he isn't in the mood. And he'll grumble, if you know how to recognize it. Drags his feet, tosses his head some, requires stronger cues or he ignores them, etc. I mostly ignore it, provided we still go. 

But those are the times he'll tell me "_No, I'm not scared, I just don't wanna go that way!_" And then he may crow-hop, or try to turn away, etc. On those days, your daughter becomes Patrick. Some days I ride an Arabian. Sometimes I ride my mustang. And sometimes I ride a mustang who isn't in the mood to be ridden.

------------------------------------

On a separate but related issues: "soft cues"

I've come to view Cowboy as being about 4 inches shorter than my ideal horse. He's a bit too small for me, as a rule. But I REALLY like him. He has attitude, but the sort that says "Work with me". He's level-headed, knows what needs to be done, will listen to his rider if he gets scared, accepts a "Give & Take" approach to riding ("Let me grab a bite now and I'll cheerfully haul your butt across the spots everyone else dismounts for in 5 minutes"), cheerful, cautious but not cowardly. He proving himself to be a great horse with beginning level riders - if they will work with him. If they won't, he'll make them wish they had.

Cowboy takes larger cues than Bandit. That is fine by me. I don't value a high degree of subtlety with my cues. No one is watching. No one is judging. And my long-term goal with Bandit is to make him a good BEGINNER'S trail horse.

Neck reining, to me, means "_Move the reins forward 6" so the horse will know the next thing is a request to turn. Them move my hand left or right 6 inches._" I want my horse to respond well to an obvious request to turn - because I want him to be a horse just about anyone can ride.

A few nights ago, I read a book on rein effects, seats, and how there are 6-8 of each and how you should use this rein to hold a shoulder up (YGBSM! Reins do NOT hold shoulders up! They can only CUE for that IF the horse has been TAUGHT the cue!) or that rein to support X while the other rein does Y, and all the while put more weight on your outside or inside seat bone - but without leaning. Etc. 

I do NOT want a horse to think any extra weight to one side means anything. I want to be able to lean, twist around, etc without cueing anything. I have no idea how to make one side of my hip heavier than the other, and which one I should make heavier to cue a turn varies depending on the author of the book!

I've actually regressed in my riding, deliberately. I almost never use my legs to cue a turn. I used to and Mia would do it very well. But I'm the only rider in my family who did it. And one day I asked myself: "_If my horse will turn fine when I move my hand forward and to the right, WHY do I also need to be cueing with my leg?_" If I regularly want my horse to continue straight ahead while I twist back and forth looking for a way to enter a wash, why would I want him to listen to "seat cues"? If he turns just fine combining his judgment with my hand motion, why worry?

I want a horse who can be ridden by a new rider with 5 minutes of instruction, and who will do so...well, like Cowboy does. So my goals in what cues to teach are Clear, Consistent and Simple.

I taught Trooper leg cues back when I was riding him regularly. In the years since, with just my daughter or wife riding him, he's long since tossed that concept aside. But my wife or daughter can ride him through the Sonoran Desert just fine. So...why would I try to reteach him cues he obviously does not need to get the job done, and done very well?

If I ever bought a well trained dressage or reining horse - and I will NEVER do that - the first thing I'd need to do is deprogram him. I'd have to teach him he has a new challenge - to forget what he was trained to do, and learn to ride using a few very simple cues. It would confuse him at first, just as Bandit couldn't understand at first why I didn't want him to do an emergency stop every time I took the slack out of the reins.

My goal is not to get my horses highly trained. My goal is for them to be trained to be ridden simply, by simple riders. And then to use THEIR judgment to get the rest of the job done.

Not objecting to anyone training a bridle horse, or for high-level dressage, or reining, or anything else. I just want Bandit to turn into Cowboy, only younger and 8 inches taller...
:winetime:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

There is a big difference between saying a horse can't be trained to lightness and not desiring it because that is not your goal. Those are two different things. 

Horses of all different personalities can be trained to respond to lighter and lighter cues; some easily and some with great attention and difficulty. Some to the level of a bridle horse, some just to a very soft level. The question really is how bad do you want it? The correct answer is up to the individual.


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## bsms

I would also say a horse can be trained to lightness, but choose to reject light cues when he doesn't feel like obeying them. That is a discussion on WILLINGNESS, not intensity. A horse can be light - and Mia got pretty light by my standards - and also sometimes need a heavy input because HER will differed from mine.

I also see no contradiction between training for "simple" and "light". I want (and often get) an acceleration at a kiss sound and a deceleration at "Easy". Those are light but simple. Rejecting leg cues for turns is simple, and neither lighter or heavier than using leg cues. In some ways lighter, perhaps, since the horse doesn't have to be listening for a cue that will never come.

Subtle and light differ. When I move my reins forward 6 inches, then over to the right 6 inches, I am not being subtle. But I am light - the only thing the horse is feeling is the weight of a yacht rope rein placed against a spot on his neck reserved for turning cues. Nothing harsh or heavy about it - from the horse's view. But anyone watching can easily see the cue, so it is not subtle.

My approach to neck reining is soft. No pressure on the bit and almost none on the horse. It is also obvious - to anyone watching, and to my horse.

If he chooses to ignore it, then I'll need to get louder. And if Bandit is having a Patrick kind of day, I might do a lot of shouting. Not because I want to, and not because he refuses to obey a lighter cue. He can feel the lighter cue, but that doesn't mean he'll OBEY the lighter cue.

Excitement acts as noise to a horse. As they become more excited, they find it harder to listen. 

But willfulness plays a part too. And when I lay a rein 6 inches forward and against Bandit's left neck, telling him to turn right and cross that rocky patch instead of staying on a smooth trail, Bandit may ignore that soft cue. Not because he doesn't understand, or because he cannot hear, but because he is telling me "I REALLY prefer to avoid rocky ground, so let's go left!"

And depending on where we are and why I wanted to go right, the response might be "OK, we'll do it your way" or it might be, "I don't THINK so - home is 1/4 mile away - IF we go right like I asked!" And I might need to put two hands on the rein, and use my pinkie on one, or even pull hard on one, to make my point.

Bandit may become more willing, over time. But I don't think he'll EVER be as willing as Lilly and Mia were. And if I want a horse to talk to me, I may have to accept him sometimes talking back, so to speak!


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## horseluvr2524

@Reiningcatsanddogs awesome that you got Oliver that light. I am still working on Shan, and she's improved a LOT over the past two years, but as @bsms said she has been known to ignore a light cue when there is something else she would rather be doing.

I rode Shan bareback a while back with just a halter, and was amazed at the level of responsiveness she was giving me even compared to last year. I was also amazed that I could finally sit the trot bareback!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

To clarify "Light", in the sense that I used it also refers to the horse's response to your cues rather than the strength of the cue alone. A horse, regardless of the strength of your cue can respond lightly or be heavy in their feedback such as not responding at all. 

A horse who is trained to lightness consistently responds lightly to light cues. You are correct, creating willingness is also part of getting that "light" response.


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## gottatrot

Great stuff, very interesting. I'll comment more later but got sidetracked...

I've been meaning to work on gathering some hoof information together for people who want to learn more about hooves without reading a 300 page technical book or going through 40 sites on the internet. 

Last night I tried to make a web page, but it didn't work out very well so I decided to just put several pages on my blog I used to write on and link to that.

The first installment is one long page with lots of illustrations, bringing together a lot of information on hoof anatomy, external and internal.

Hopefully I will have time soon to add several more pages about what to look for in hoof deformities, how to use the trimming tools, and how to do a basic trim. 
I think many people would like to learn how to trim but the information is overwhelming. Also some people have the idea that it's very difficult to do. 

Even just understanding the in depth hoof anatomy will help any horse person see if their farrier is doing a good job or a bad one.

So with that in mind, I compiled a few pictures I thought would help people get a better understanding of horse hooves, and hopefully it is not too dry or deep.
HOOF ANATOMY | Round Pen, Square Horse


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## horseluvr2524

That is awesome @gottatrot . that may actually give me the confidence to start doing a teeny bit of maint between trims. I am most certainly one of those people who think trimming is very complicated and difficult. I'm just terrified of hurting my horse and don't dare to touch someone else's horse. Maybe once I feel I understand it more... I have an awesome barefoot trimmer right now though (she comes up from Tucson, I wonder if bsms knows her) and so far have been impressed with her work.


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## bsms

My farrier is a guy, and I don't recall ever having a female farrier. When we first started we had an incredible barefoot trimmer. Unhappily, his back was broken by a horse. Even when he recovered, he was told he'd have to cut back on the numbers - and we were the farthest away of any of his customers.

I emailed the guy we're using now about the possibility of putting shoes on Bandit's front feet. His sole got thicker after removing the shoes in June 2015, and his feet got bigger, but I'm not sure his soles are thick enough to handle the trails here. I'm also not sure boots would handle the times Bandit is picking his way carefully down a steep spot, or when we hit a patch of deep sand.

The farrier has said to keep Bandit barefoot in the past, but we'll see. He should be out next week. I'm also wondering if that is why Bandit splashes his front feet in the water bucket - to give them some relief and create some mud to stand in.

Sure would be easier if he could do a Mr Ed and just say, "_Wilbur, you need to do something about my front feet!_"


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

FWIW, we just did a trail that was slick rock and a cliff edge. Both mares had no trouble with the boots, no slipping or any problems. My mare did slip once (right next to the cliff!), but she had the easyboots on which had even more traction. I think that the slip had less to do with the boots and more to do with the incredibly difficult trail overall. Belle had cavallos on, which fit looser, but still had no trouble. Both were very surefooted. I have no qualms about putting boots on in desert terrain, at least on the front. I don't think I would recommend booting all the way around on the trail, because if a horse does need traction, they still have their hind hooves.

I had no idea that trail was going to be like that. And once we were on it, there was no place to turn around so no going back!


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## horseluvr2524

The rock was sheer and slick, and both of us were really glad our horses weren't shoed. Without special shoes made for traction, that could have been a really bad accident on a shoed horse.


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## gottatrot

This might have several topics:

First, about boots and traction. I've found that boots can have better or worse traction on different surfaces. I think they are more slippery on wet grass than barefoot, have slightly better traction than barefoot on large gravel or asphalt, and slightly worse traction than barefoot on very dry, dusty roads with fine gravel on top. 

In mud or on dirt, they do about the same as barefoot or slightly better. On dry grass I don't see any difference in traction between barefoot or booted. In ice, I don't know because I try to avoid ice and might have slipped either way, LOL but did slip off the trail in boots. I find shoes slippery on asphalt, especially wet asphalt, and slippery on wet grass. I've never used studs on boots or shoes. 

I wrote a very long post about lightness and communicating with horses on Bsms' journal.
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/

There's still more to think about and learn, for sure.


> (*Reiningcatsanddogs*) To clarify "Light", in the sense that I used it also refers to the horse's response to your cues rather than the strength of the cue alone. A horse, regardless of the strength of your cue can respond lightly or be heavy in their feedback such as not responding at all.
> 
> A horse who is trained to lightness consistently responds lightly to light cues. You are correct, creating willingness is also part of getting that "light" response.
> Yesterday 09:28 AM


It's the willingness that is very interesting. What, for example would create willingness in a horse if they are enjoying what they are doing? 

Let's say Halla is enjoying running as fast as she can, on a nice surface racing a buddy. What can I offer her that is more interesting than that? So if I need a strong cue and it takes her a moment or two to respond...what incentive can I offer her that would make her willing to respond immediately to my desire to have her slow down versus her desire to keep racing? 

It seems that what I have to offer is not attractive, and when she is more fit and strong it feels so good that my offer is like hoping a kid will be willing to come inside and work on homework when he could be playing in a swimming pool with friends. 

Another topic:
I had an email yesterday from the barn owner. She was hoping that I would be willing to separate Halla and Amore into different fields, this was an idea given to her by another boarder. The issue is with a two year old filly that has been at a trainer's for a couple months. The filly has been too much for the owner to handle, she is very big, probably around 15.2 or so and plows through everything. She destroyed a few fences and gates and the barn owner said to take the horse to a trainer or leave. 

I'm not sure exactly what a trainer has done, but he is a good trainer. The owner has three horses, and has not wanted to work on separating them so brings all three together everywhere. The boarder who turns horses in and out has worked on taking them in and out of the barn separately, but two of the horses get separation anxiety and have been difficult to lead, I hear. 
So the trainer thinks keeping them separated now will help. 

The part that is odd to me is that the barn owner said she heard my horses have separation anxiety, so she thought separating them might be good for mine too.
I know this is what the NH boarder told her, and I have trouble understanding her perspective. She's told me that horses should always be calm, and in sort of a zen state (my words, not hers). 

She's often perceived my Arabs as needing help/work/intervention, and often suggests her NH trainer (the one working with the filly) for training. I know this is not personal or specific, because she is constantly in training with this person working on the nuances of things such as feel and lightness. But it interests me that she thinks separation anxiety is an issue for my horses. 

For one thing, I can leave Amore anywhere, anytime, all alone and she doesn't bat an eye unless on a rare occasion she thinks another horse is getting food. 
Anywhere with grass, you could abandon her and she wouldn't care until the grass ran out. If I were to bring her into a dry pen and leave her while going for a ride, she'd run around and call. But not for the other horse, but because she'd think she was missing out on food. If I put her in a pen with grass, she would be quiet and just eat. 

Halla is regularly taken out and ridden alone or with other horses besides Amore. Just last night, I saddled Halla, took her out and rode off leaving Amore behind in her pen. Amore kept eating, Halla walked off without looking behind. I don't call that separation anxiety. Halla does have an issue with being left all alone in a stall with no horses around, but that's something I don't care to do to any horse so I don't work on that issue. 

Anyway, I told the barn owner that I want the horses to stay together, and she is fine with it. I guess she thought she'd put one of the horses with actual separation anxiety, a gelding in with Halla and Nala instead. I told her that Halla was likely to chase the gelding away from Nala and push him around like she does with every other gelding, but if she wanted to put him with Halla, Nala and Amore I didn't think they'd hurt him, just keep him isolated.  It sounds like they'll find some other solution.

Ever since I read about horses staying with a family group in a natural state, I feel it is important to keep my mares together and let them have permanent family rather than playing roulette and switching horses all the time as they tend to do at barns. They enjoy Nala too, I think she's part of the family now. Hopefully they can stay together for quite some time.


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## horseluvr2524

Interesting point on the 'permanent family'. I suspect that is truer for mares than geldings or stallions, as from what I read in the past, the young stallions are often pushed out of the herd and run a bachelor band until they form a mare herd of their own.

It was definitely a shocker for me discovering last year that horses really do adopt humans into their herd. Doesn't mean that the humans are their number one preference, but they do adopt them in. I was so shocked to come back from out of state last year and find Shan displaying signs of separation anxiety from ME, and I'm no horse... at least I don't think I am? Maybe there is something to all those years I sneezed like a horse as a child... :lol:


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## gottatrot

Took a ride on Halla around the fields tonight, with a bareback pad. Ponied Amore along, she was good about not trying to graze except for the last bit where the grass went up to her eyeballs. She couldn't ignore that. 
The Scotchbroom is in full bloom, taking over the world...I'm so grateful I'm not allergic to the pollen as so many people are. 







 
This time of year is the most difficult to watch Amore's weight. I am trying to be strict with the hay at night...she's definitely a 5+ so I don't want her to gain.







 
I stopped feeling guilty after seeing another boarder horse on our ride. He is a poster child for why Dr. Getty the horse nutritionist's ideas about feeding don't work for every horse. He gets hay 24/7 out of a slow feeder net. As you can see, there's not much else to eat in his pen. I am afraid he's in a danger zone at the moment.







 
It was a fun little ride, both horses zooming along at a fast walk or jog. Love my bareback pad. It's very cushy and the suede grip is perfect.


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## gottatrot

The second page on hooves:
HOOF DEFORMITIES | Round Pen, Square Horse


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## Dragoon

Hello
I've been dying to ask you about a saddle I just heard about! I'm wondering if you've heard of it or tried it.
It's called the Total Contact saddle, and its treeless and seatless. (!)

I just purchased (yet another) treeless saddle from someone on line, and her reason for selling was, she had gotten one of these saddles for her hard to fit TB, and it worked a charm. So I looked it up online, and haven't been able to find a negative review from anyone who has actually used one. It sounds so promising!
The TB girl told me she used the recommended gel pad with a seat saver on top of that and that it was really comfortable. It never slipped, and her horse who is fussy about tack fit, never complains. Her only caveat was that without knee rolls and cantle, you have to use your own core to maintain proper position. It gets you in shape!
I'm so excited to hear about this saddle, but unfortunately spent all my spare cash on this new treeless that I don't like very much. It is going up for sale, and then I'm going to save up for my new Holy Grail Saddle. I had to buy a cheap used treed saddle for now because my horse is helping out with lessons at the barn and his old saddle has a cracked tree. I had four days to come up with a saddle the kids could use. But I do really want the Total Contact saddle! I also like the fact it will fit any horse...
I had also asked the TB girl what separated the TC saddle from a bareback pad with stirrups, and she said every bareback pad she tried put her in a chair seat, but the TC saddle did not.

Anyways, long story, but I wanted to know if you've tried it since you've said you tried many saddles over the years. I also have been through a lot of saddles in the short time i've had my own horse. I have a 14.1 pony with high withers and and a short, dipped back. Very round barrel. He's good to ride bareback, but not good to find a saddle for... My pony is 22 and my first horse and I worry constantly that he is comfortable and if i'm doing all I can for him.


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> I've been dying to ask you about a saddle I just heard about! I'm wondering if you've heard of it or tried it.
> It's called the Total Contact saddle, and its treeless and seatless.


I've not tried a Total Contact. It looks like stirrups added to a surcingle. 
My biggest concern would be about pressure. I've used surcingles on horses for lunging, and you definitely have to make sure there is clearance over the spine so you're not pulling down on the backbone.
This type of clearance in a surcingle is usually fine, but if you put weight on there from stirrup pressure, you might end up pressing down on the spine. 









Of course you are basically riding bareback, even with the stirrups. Your body will sit on the horse. If you were using the stirrups too much, a slip to the side would pull the saddle over, so it would work well if you were sitting mostly on your bottom and the horse was going straight. A quick dip to the side while in two point over a jump and you'd roll it.
That rolling problem and also the pressure on the spine problem are why stirrups on a bareback pad are not recommended. 

The website for Total Contact skates around the questions about pressure by saying something like pressure pads aren't accurate, and it all depends on how you ride, etc. 

I have a friend who rode bareback on a horse for years. The horse did have some muscle atrophy around the withers, but the horse was all white so it was difficult to tell if there were any problems.
Another friend has a chestnut mare and she also rode bareback extensively. This horse does have white hairs all around where the rider sits. 
I like riding bareback sometimes, but I don't see how anyone can not get tired and start to bounce around after a half hour or so. So that's why I prefer having the padding and spinal clearance of a good treeless on the horse for protection for longer rides, or the weight distribution of a tree.

If you don't ride long or hard, I think bareback is fine. There are also a very few riders who say they have ridden bareback forever with no issues, so I'd believe there are some who can do it. Yet my two friends don't relate the signs of back pressure to their bareback riding either.


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## Dragoon

Yep, pressure on the withers was my first concern. Its everyone's concern who has commented on the saddle...which is why I was trying to find reviews from people who've actually used the saddle. From poking around, it seems everyone who has actually used it, liked the saddle. 
Bareback riding is cool, but I am always concerned about protecting the horse's back from my seat bones. I believe ANY rider, regardless of how big their bum is, puts pressure from their seat bones on the horse's muscles. I think that's why a gel pad is recommended with the TC saddle.
I did read rolling is not a problem, and the girl I was emailing told me she can mount from the ground if she has to without it slipping. But she uses a mounting block just because its better for the horse period. And I've seen videos of people jumping with it.

So far as I can conclude, this saddle seems to work for people with REALLY hard to fit horses, and is the lesser of two evils, so to speak...when you can't find anything that works, this saddle must seem a blessing...
I've got a long while before I can afford one, will have to keep pondering...
Thanks for your thoughts!

Your ponies are beautiful, BTW. 
Amore is a little chubby, but I understand you are reluctant to ride her for fitness. Is free lunging not an option? If you could set up some small x-rails and block off a track in the arena for her, she could get a good workout that way. I do this with the two horses I exercise. I set up trot poles, do a few laps each way, then set up tiny jumps, then set up bigger ones, doing a few laps each way before changing the obstacles. Then cool them out. This is great when its too cold to ride, or I haven't enough time to ride both. Right now with the spring grass, they both really need some excercise! Daily. Because they are eating 24/7.


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## horseluvr2524

@Dragoon

Amore is well into her twenties and retired now. I do believe that is at least partly due to an accident last year where Amore collapsed at the canter suddenly, without warning, and her rider fell onto the sand and received a rather bad concussion.


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## bsms

"*Chubby? CHUBBY? Round is a shape!*"
- Cowboy the 13.0 Mustang Pony

Hard to cut his feed when he and 15.0 hand Bandit are now often content to share buckets of food...and he could gain weight on air. I can sympathize. I can gain 5 lbs inhaling deeply passing by a donut shop.​​


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> So far as I can conclude, this saddle seems to work for people with REALLY hard to fit horses, and is the lesser of two evils, so to speak...when you can't find anything that works, this saddle must seem a blessing...
> I've got a long while before I can afford one, will have to keep pondering...
> Thanks for your thoughts!


Yes, better to ride bareback than in a saddle that doesn't fit. For sure.

Awww, Cowboy is just a stocky mustang. He's probably a bit chubby but some horses hide it so nicely you can't tell they are fat until you put your hands on them and realize how deeply their ribs are buried. 
Honestly, though, in that photo of Cowboy I can see a nice depression at the flank and behind the shoulder, so he's probably not so bad. That mustang I posted a photo of has no delineation between shoulder/belly/flank/hip and a deep crease down his back, as well as a huge bulge under his belly and a thick neck crest. 

Amore's neck is fine, and I can feel her ribs without pressing very hard, but she actually looks a little fatter than she is because of the Cushing's, which makes horses have a pot belly. 

As horseluvr2524 mentioned, Amore is retired at 26, so only does light work. Her arthritis is setting in, which I didn't realize was so bad until she fell last summer. I'm a believer in exercising arthritis, but she runs around her big pasture all day with Halla and Nala, so mainly I just take her for walk/jogs several times a week to keep her limber. 

I know horses do burn tons of calories when working, but I've always been a believer in monitoring feed intake for weight control versus exercise. If a horse loses too much weight due to exercise, then I add feed, but otherwise I control feed versus trying to add exercise. I just know a lot of horses and humans that have difficulty keeping weight off with exercise alone. 

Today I met up with an old friend who wanted me to come take a look at her friend's horse's hooves. This person we were meeting has been having trouble with farriers doing a poor job and laming her horse, so my friend has been helping her trim and get some better hooves on her horse.

The horse was quite social, and stood with us humans away from his buddy horse in the field while we talked. Meanwhile, he was giving us big eyes and cute faces to get scratches and pets. His owner said she was visiting a neighbor down the road and left him outside while she went in to talk. They heard a sound and found the horse standing in the living room, near the china cabinet. She was able to back him out of the house and down the porch steps, but he was too lonely to wait outside alone. His name is Karl, a QH. Very sweet horse.

Since she rides on gravel logging roads, my friend has been mentioning boots. This friend loves Renegades, I got her interested in them several years ago. Her boots were too large for Karl to try. It happened that I had a full set of boots front and hind that are almost worn through but not quite, and I've been holding onto them in case I could give them away to someone who could use them. So we booted up Karl, he walked away picking his legs up super high in the air as horses do when they've not worn boots before. :wink:
His owner was quite pleased with the road test up and down a gravel driveway, so at least she can try them for a bit to see if she wants to go that route. I'm happy I saved them. 

I worked a bit on another installment in my "about hooves" blog. I'll try to do two more pages, one about trimming tools and how to use them, and one about doing the actual trim. This one is about seeing the planes and angles of the hoof.
VISUALIZING THE HOOF | Round Pen, Square Horse

As always, anyone can feel free to be critical of the information posted or present another side. I'm always trying to learn, and especially if I'm misinformed I'd appreciate looking into that.


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## Dragoon

My apologies to Miss Amore for the chubby comment, no offence was meant!
I did not know Cushing's gives a pot belly...something to watch out for.

I too have a round pony with a cresty neck and crease down his back. He gains weight so easily *sigh*.
I cannot feel his ribs, ever, even in summer when he slims down. 
I think Cowboy looks great! Isn't it terrible that horses are cuter when they're chubby? I've seen my horse skinnier, and he didn't look so hot. The roundness masks his conformation flaws. 

I haven't had time to read the hooves page yet, but a huge THANKS in advance for writing them. You explain things so well, and I'm very interested in all things horse. The TB I ride has questionable, tiny feet...

Kudos to you for saving your old stuff, and helping out fellow horse owners try before they buy!
D.


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> My apologies to Miss Amore for the chubby comment, no offence was meant!
> I did not know Cushing's gives a pot belly...something to watch out for.


Amore is chubby, can't take offense at the truth. Just wanted to give her a tiny "out," although not sure why because I'm sure most horses would be happy to get super fat. Only people are embarrassed at being overweight.


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## horseluvr2524

I gotta get some new pictures. Belle and Shan have really filled out, yet you can still faintly see their ribs in certain lighting. There are times I went "oh no, are they getting too fat?!", but really I think it's the sheer amount of muscle they've gained that threw me for a loop.


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## gottatrot

Solo ride on Halla tonight at 7:30 p.m.
Lovely.
Tried holding the camera up to get another view a couple times. Made me laugh, trying to hold onto my goofy horse with one hand on the reins.
Nala and Cass are going horse camping tomorrow, so are saving their energy.


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## Dragoon

Amazing!!

I can only dream of getting to ride in such a place!
Only arena riding here. 

Her head is way more straight without another horse to keep her eyeball on. But those videos are priceless, riding a set of shoulders with no head (seemingly).

Thanks for sharing your ride!


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## bsms

In the opening shots, all I could think of was Cowboy saying, "_Nope! I'm not leaving until every blade of grass is GONE! One pony - one field - one meal. Get back with me in 6 weeks!_"

Did all walking with Bandit yesterday, but I think a beach and a riding companion would soon have him thinking, "_Race!_" Although the sand would soon having him thinking, "_Quit! When did they move sea level up to 12,000' MSL?_"


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## egrogan

Love the video- amazing how many changes of scenery you can have on one ride! Some of the open fields look like they could be in my back yard- and then you hit the beach, which is totally different.

I've been meaning to ask you...are the people on the beach used to seeing horses, or do they get freaked out? When I went on a beach ride in Georgia a couple of months ago, some of the people we passed seemed really nervous, especially the ones with kids in tow, and I have to admit that made me nervous about a kid popping under my horse at the last minutes. Others, particularly the fisherman, glared at us and were sort of menacing when they told us we couldn't ride past a certain point.


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## gottatrot

Usually people are the opposite of nervous, they're rather clueless and seem to think of the horses as benign as well as under complete control. They'll often fly kites over our heads, snap open umbrellas as we're going by, drive cookies in the sand or rev their engines, or just watch as their loose dogs or kids run up to us. Usually there's enough space to get away if the horses get nervous; the only times it's been hairy are days like the 4th of July, but I know that's risky at the outset. 

Yesterday there was a woman and a boy flying a kite when we first got down to the beach. After that we didn't see a soul on miles of beach, not even a vehicle. There were vultures eating a dead sea lion and a bald eagle, and lots of various other birds. To me 7:30 isn't late and it was tee-shirt weather, so I felt like everyone was missing out on a beautiful evening.



> *Dragoon*: Her head is way more straight without another horse to keep her eyeball on.


She also holds her head up higher, since she's not thinking about every possible way to go faster and her canter feels soft instead of like a furious pounding. She is so very competitive inside. :grin:


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## horseluvr2524

I still desperately want to move to Oregon. Maybe someday! Gah I MISS that place. It was so beautiful. Actually, one of my only experiences riding outside the desert was with you last summer so I have to thank you again for that!

I was amazed at how quiet Halla was for you. After riding with you all, I thought you guys rode fire breathing dragons on a regular basis. LOL!
Also wanted to mention that it must feel pretty good to be riding Halla again after all that! I'm so glad she recovered, and what seems very quickly to me too.


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## gottatrot

Amore says to tell Shan she should move here because the grass is 14 hands tall.


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## bsms

^^ That would make it 4 inches taller than Cowboy, but I'm sure he'd rise to the occasion!


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## horseluvr2524

Finally got to read through your hoof guide @gottatrot . I loved it, but I think I'll have to read through the hoof anatomy several times to truly get it as there is so much information there!

I went out this morning and applied my new found knowledge. I was able to confirm that Belle does have forward foot syndrome. She's always grown a lot in the toe and next to nothing in the heel. Her bars and heels were slightly crushed/underrun, but overall her hooves look a lot better than they used to. I remember when her sole had no depth and appeared to balloon out, and was actually higher than the wall, with her frog buried and not making contact with the ground. She's improved a lot since then, I definitely think pulling shoes was a good thing for her. She is also pigeon toed in the front. I wonder how much of that will be corrected over time.

Shan's hooves looked really good to my eye. Big old round plates that have nice, even growth, heels and bars where they should be, very healthy frog. She used to flare a bit on the left hind between trim cycles, but I didn't notice any flaring over the last 8 week cycle. How much flare growth can be corrected with a couple of good trims over a cycle? Overall, I think our new lady farrier is doing a great job. The mares like her better than the others we've had too.

Both horses have cracks from the frog that run between the heel bulbs, like the picture below. I thought this was normal but...?


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## horseluvr2524

And like this:


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## gottatrot

I'm sure I've forgotten many details trying to summarize a lot of hoof info.

Dry/desert hooves tend to depend more on wear and abrasion while wetland hooves depend more on shedding. I've read about the type of cells hooves have in the sole and frog, and they form matrixes and come off in sheets or chunks. But that process seems to depend on moisture, and dry hooves need more material left in so don't shed as much naturally. 

The point of all this is that the frog will retain more material over the "thumbprint" of the central sulcus, so it will look more like a crack on desert hooves.








However, you should be able to put a hoof pick in and feel firm, hard frog under there and not be able to stick it deeply into the soft, live tissue of the hoof or leg.

See how in this hoof the crack is going up into the hairline? That's very bad and painful. More of a wet country problem than a dry one.


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## horseluvr2524

Nope, definitely not that bad! They look really healthy overall, move really well, long strides, heel first landings, etc. The crack is very small, just like the one in the dry hoof picture you posted.


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## gottatrot

A cartoon for the day:


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## gottatrot

A post I was reading on the science of motion website has some great food for thought. 
Meaning of life 13



> Believing that properly applied, the rider’s aids should trigger the horse perfect response, is utterly simplistic and contradicted by actual knowledge of equine biomechanics and neurophysiology. The horse response is always influenced by memory, which recognizes the meaning of the rider aids, and the horse’s actual body state, which determines how the horse executes the move.





> The horse’s response might contradict the rider’s prejudgment and good riders are the ones who, through appropriated questions, lead the horse brain toward the coordination of the horse physique precisely adapted to the athletic demand of the performance. Instead, *poor riders judge the horse answer is respect* of their beliefs. Biomechanical facts contradicting prejudgments are dismissed, reasons are not heard, factual documentations are ignored, irrefutable explanations of equine functional anatomy are pushed aside as inconsequential. Ignorance is leading and there is a self-satisfaction arising from ignorance.





> Instead of selling the fallacy that the horse does have naturally, the appropriated reflexes, we need to think through the athletic demand of the performance and how the horse’s physique has to be developed and coordinated for the demand. Instead of demeaning the rider self-confidence explaining difficulties as improper use of the correct aids, teaching is about believing in the rider intuition and recreating self- confidence.


Ride between rain showers today with Nala and Cass. Halla was marginally less unhappy about Cass' presence, but still flung her head around a lot. At one point, Cass came cantering up behind and his rider started laughing because as he neared Halla he began flinging his head too, like "guess we're all flinging our heads around now." From what I've observed, I think geldings are more prone to peer pressure than mares. 








Nala and Halla preferred going side by side a lot of the time, while Cass lagged a bit. He can move out very well, but his default average speed is a lot slower than the other two. Nala has the fastest average - left to her own devices she'd be zipping along for miles. Halla wants to keep up badly, but on her own moves along a bit slower.








This was the farthest ride since laminitis, and Halla seemed to have no issues, and cool hooves afterward. The only thing I really notice anymore is that the sole thickness is improving slooowly, so we still have to avoid any kind of rocks. 








I was amazed that Halla was standing still for a moment. We were not posing, although it looks like it. Just paused for a brief second. Click, then Halla was off again.

The funny story was that at one point Nala took off in a gallop, and Halla was her usual self. As Nala left, Halla wanted to go too, began breathing fire (lightly), which I am so used to. Decided to manage it with a bit of controlled speed work through some deeper sand, so let her canter off. When her eyes flashed red a little and she tried to ramp into a real gallop, I focused on weaving her between some drift logs and other obstacles, so we ended up with controlled speed and she downshifted exactly where I asked her to slow. 

Then Cass' rider, who I'd only glanced back to see that her horse seemed unconcerned and then stopped paying attention, came trotting up. I guess she hadn't seen us moving along before, and she was exclaiming about how she'd thought Halla's moves were going to throw me off a few times but she was amazed I'd ridden through. This made me laugh, because I've grown so used to her antics that I only think about managing them and am unsurprised and undisturbed. 

However, although I know every horse has challenges, it would not be an unwelcome thing for me to find as a next horse one that did not throw curve balls and fast balls constantly at the rider every single ride! I swear, it's like we're in a sword fight sometimes, parrying each others' moves. Yet it's not a battle/battle, but more of a fun game - perhaps slightly more fun for the horse than the rider who gets worn out at times. 

We tried to go down a wooded trail, but Cass didn't fit underneath or between the trees, so we had to turn back. 

I actually sat on Amore yesterday with a bareback pad, didn't seem to bother her. We ponied Halla out to the edge of the property to graze a bit. I was just ready to get a grazing muzzle for her since she's pushing into the realm of a bit chubby, but yesterday they cordoned off the field and made it a lot smaller - perhaps only a half acre right now. This was so the out of control Scotch Broom could get sprayed and mowed, so they'll be off it a couple weeks. I'm hoping we may get a little drier weather by then so the grass stops growing so much, and then maybe I can avoid the grazing muzzle. I've never had to use one on her yet, but this year is very unusual. Last year the pastures were nearly down to dirt because of an extra dry year, but this extra wet year has everything grown back plus extra. 

I managed to finish off the rest of the "how to trim hooves" I added to my blog. Hopefully someone will find it educational or useful. 
TRIMMING TOOLS | Round Pen, Square Horse

TRIMMING TECHNIQUE | Round Pen, Square Horse


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## bsms

I like the Science of Motion website.

Early on, I read a book on dressage that said horses instinctively move in to pressure. "So", the book said, "if you put more weight on your right hip, the horse will instinctively move right. Dressage is based on the horse's instinctive reactions." Not actually a direct quote & the book is one of the ones I threw away a few months ago.

So I went out and tried it. All my western trained horses, taught to move away from pressure, had a slight tendency to move left if you put weight to the right. However, all my horses were either ex-ranch horses or Mia (who probably didn't have any training at that point), and they mostly ignored my shifting weight. After all, a ranch hand who spends 12-14 hours a day in a saddle will shift weight a lot without expecting the horse to automatically move.

Based on that and a lot of similar experiences of my horses not doing what learned books said they would automatically do, I concluded a lot of books were written by trainers who ignored what their green horses actually did and instead perpetuated myths based on how trained lesson horses respond. 

When I was in college, I took a quarter of lessons in riding - maybe 12 total. It was taught by a cowboy. The book the old guy had us use has a section that regurgitates the statement that having the shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line is a critical element of good riding. However, the book also has 100+ pictures of the instructor riding. The only one where he was obeying his critical rule was the one taken to illustrate it - on a stationary horse!

But if dressage cues (or western cues) are based on a horse's instincts, then a horse who doesn't automatically obey them must be making a conscious decision to tell the rider to go to Hades. The horse is defying both the rider and Nature, and must therefor be going out of its way to "disrespect" the rider! Indeed, the horse becomes an affront to Nature itself! And we should then put on our "Man is God to Horse" helmets, and call down lightning & thunder on the offending beast!

Of course, it goes a lot simpler, faster and more relaxed if you simply explain to the horse "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" Then the horse goes, "_Oh, when you do X, it means you want Y, and if I do Y, I will be safe, relaxed and contented. Or maybe excited about having fun with my friends!_" Much easier than playing Zeus. Or Thor, The Hammerer of Horses.


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## knightrider

I am intrigued by the Total Contact saddle and looked online to see what other people say. Here is one forum. Interesting. I would love to try one!
Total contact saddle? Whos tried it?


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## bsms

Well...the girl in the bikini photo was an interesting approach...pretty sure my neighbors don't want to see ME riding in a swimsuit!

Total Contact ® - Bareback riding... with the stirrups! » The saddle










Reading their manuals, such as they are, I get the feeling they are rebelling against the common European teaching that VS Littauer railed against in his last book - the mixing of a dressage seat with jumping, and a more seat-centric approach than a stirrup-centric one.

I'd give it a try if someone loaned me one along with an arena to try it out in. My little arena has too many rocks. :sad:


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## horseluvr2524

That saddle is just not something I could personally see myself covering long hours and miles in. It might be OK for short excursions and frequent breaks but...

I spoke to Walkinthewalk before about riding bareback on a permanent basis when I was having some serious saddle fit problems. She stated that she used to be a die hard bareback rider, but she spent a lot of time keeping herself incredibly fit in order to be able to ride bareback and not injure her horse.

See, if you think about it, every animal in history that has ever been used as a mount eventually got a saddle. Elephants, camels, donkeys, etc. I can't think of one that was used as a mount on a permanent basis (not just a novelty mount) that did not have a saddle developed at some point.

Even the Native Americans, who are pictured in most people's minds as riding bareback and being very 'one with the horse', developed their own saddles, and from the pictures I've seen actually switched over to western saddles/tack.

If the same process was repeated throughout history, there was obviously a need for it. A saddle is a whole lot of trouble to go to if riding bareback was truly better.


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## gottatrot

I just can't see how you could keep the pressure of your weight in the stirrups off the spine. It looks too flat to me. Surcingles meant for weight usually have significant padding or a large gap for the spine. I'd think if the saddle had that type of clearance, it might be OK as far as pressure goes. You still are reducing the weight distribution by quite a bit versus a saddle.

















I am athletic, and for example on Friday I ran six miles and Saturday rode seven miles. Tonight I did a mile of sprint intervals. I'm very fit compared to many people, and trying to see if I can do a half marathon in under two hours this year. For my age, that's rather above average (which is always the goal of me and my sister as fun runners - "stay above average!"). 

My point in all of this is that I find if very difficult to keep from bouncing on a horse bareback after about fifteen minutes or so. It requires a lot of muscle tension, more anaerobic/strength muscles than endurance type muscles. You basically have to lift your weight off the horse's back any time you go faster than a walk, without the benefit of stirrups. Which is similar to trying to hold your butt off a chair with your feet off the ground, just by wrapping your legs around it and squeezing. 

That's why I don't see how people can ride bareback long distance or long term, if they are thinking about their horse's back. So with the Total Contact saddle I'd end up two pointing a whole lot, so it seems that would put pressure right on the spine and be bad for the horse. Seat-centric is fine bareback if you only walk. Just like it doesn't hurt your back much to carry a backpack until you start running and it's not strapped down, in which case the slamming against your back starts to add up.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

horseluvr2524 said:


> That saddle is just not something I could personally see myself covering long hours and miles in. It might be OK for short excursions and frequent breaks but...
> 
> I spoke to Walkinthewalk before about riding bareback on a permanent basis when I was having some serious saddle fit problems. She stated that she used to be a die hard bareback rider, but she spent a lot of time keeping herself incredibly fit in order to be able to ride bareback and not injure her horse.
> 
> See, if you think about it, every animal in history that has ever been used as a mount eventually got a saddle. Elephants, camels, donkeys, etc. I can't think of one that was used as a mount on a permanent basis (not just a novelty mount) that did not have a saddle developed at some point.
> 
> Even the Native Americans, who are pictured in most people's minds as riding bareback and being very 'one with the horse', developed their own saddles, and from the pictures I've seen actually switched over to western saddles/tack.
> 
> If the same process was repeated throughout history, there was obviously a need for it. A saddle is a whole lot of trouble to go to if riding bareback was truly better.


I think when we look at either the Native Americans or really any culture back before cars we need to consider that the amount and type of riding that was done back then was very different from what most or all of us do today.

Lewis and Clark did a great deal of their journey on their own two feet though eventually they were able to acquire some horses from the Native Americans. When they did, they ended up having a great deal of difficulty with sore feet. https://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2013/11/lewis-and-clark-hoof-boots-moccasins-barefoot.html and fashioned “boots” for their horses out of animal skins.

There is generally a huge difference between the way we use horses today and the way they were once used as the only efficient means of transport.

To Walkinthewalk’s point though, we are physically different too. We are generally larger, heavier and have less muscle as a ratio than our historic counterparts so this affects how we ride. Yes, there were outliers, I am speaking in general terms.

We are also often not born riding like we once were. I would venture to bet that in the early 1800’s a child whose family was wealthy enough to own a horse or two, had logged more riding hours by the time they were 15 than we will in our entire lifetimes. 

When looking back at the historical logs we have to also remember to consider the context in which things were written and how that can affect why and how they did things.

I ride my horses bareback quite a bit, in part because I am being lazy, might only have an hour or so to ride and don’t want to waste the time tacking up. No one has come up with any back soreness to date. Mainly, I am riding at 10%-12% of my horse’s weight and while I might trot or lope for short distances, primarily we are walking. 

Maybe it is because I never have really ridden English and rarely post (Reserved only for the nastiest bumpy trots). I was always taught that in proper trotting the point is never to slam onto the horse's back but, to move with the horse throughout the momentum. Your butt, never leaves contact with the horse's back at any point so no slamming happens.

:shrug: I don't know. Maybe I am not doing long enough rides to cause an issue or I am riding a larger horse for my size or...? I have just never had a horse end up with soreness due to riding bare back and I do check.


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## horseluvr2524

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I ride my horses bareback quite a bit, in part because I am being lazy, might only have an hour or so to ride and don’t want to waste the time tacking up. No one has come up with any back soreness to date. Mainly, I am riding at 10%-12% of my horse’s weight and while I might trot or lope for short distances, primarily we are walking.
> 
> Maybe it is because I never have really ridden English and rarely post (Reserved only for the nastiest bumpy trots). I was always taught that in proper trotting the point is never to slam onto the horse's back but, to move with the horse throughout the momentum. Your butt, never leaves contact with the horse's back at any point so no slamming happens.
> 
> :shrug: I don't know. Maybe I am not doing long enough rides to cause an issue or I am riding a larger horse for my size or...? I have just never had a horse end up with soreness due to riding bare back and I do check.


An occasional hour or two riding bareback would not cause soreness (at least not in my thinking and experience anyway). I also hop on bareback for short periods of time, just did so yesterday.

You're right, we don't ride like they did back then. They were very, very fit. They got a lot more saddle time than we do. I imagine that because of this they were far more capable of moving with the horse and not being harmful to it, especially bareback, than we are. Like I said, I asked @walkinthewalk about her bareback years. She rode long hours on intense trails and never sored a horse. BUT she was extremely fit and spent a lot of time working out to keep herself that way.

My point was that saddles were developed for good reason. Could saddles use design improvements to be less harmful to the horse? Yes! But I don't think tossing saddles out is the solution.

Like I've mentioned before, I found and have been using for over a year the Protector pad. It fixed the fit of my saddle, so my saddle stopped digging into my mare's atrophied wither pockets (not uncommon in english saddles, especially on high withered horses like mine). She now moves beautifully, comfortably, and happily under saddle. Her atrophied muscles healed and regrew. And I got to keep my favorite saddle.


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## Hondo

I'm excitedly hopeful about the learning possibilities I may derive from recently meeting a cowboy on a neighboring ranch.

Mike is operating and managing the ranch to the South of where I'm staying. The ranch is owned by a local multi-billionaire that owns several other ranches locally and elsewhere. He hires cowboys to live on and manage the ranches.

Mike has been there a little over two years, he is young, has a wife and a brand new baby, and lives 60 miles from the nearest grocery store where I'm only 50 miles away.

I met him recently on a mini roundup when some the cattle from his ranch found their way to this ranch. Then just the other day he stopped by my place after riding up the river checking for more cattle.

A conversation ensued where I learned that he was originally from Oregon where his parents always had horses and had attended a ranching school on the East coast in Pennsylvania where in addition he apprenticed under two farriers for 6 months each.

He shared that he had last worked on the Waggoner Ranch in Texas for three years which recently sold for $725 million. I looked it up and it is the largest ranch under a single fence in the world.

He shared that among other duties he and two other guys started around 300 colts per year. He and one other cowboy did all the shoeing of these horses also. This of course peaked my interest. I commented that I had heard of people starting that many colts and had wondered how that could be. I have spent three months or more getting Dragon compliant with his feet being trimmed.

I further commented that 300 per year would be like one per day. He replied that it was more like 10 per day on the days colts were trained. Most were 2-3 year olds that had been running basically wild in the acreage allotted to them. He said normally around 30 minutes would be allotted to work with each colt but sometimes it might take 45 minutes or longer depending on the horse to get done what needed to be done. This reminded me of reading how colts needed shorl lessons.

He said usually the colts would be saddled, mounted, and dismounted on the first day and most of them never bucked. He said if one was going to buck it would usually be on the 3rd to 5th day as before then the colts were too confused about the newness to buck. If they didn't buck by the 5th day, they usually would never buck he said.

He went on to say that the 300 horses were divided into three groups. The first was based heavily on promise of show quality, the second on good solid prospects for use on the ranch, and the third for sale to the general public.

Out of the first group, after a time, 10 or so would be selected by the training supervisor who finished them for showing. He apparently did fairly well as Mike said he sold one gelding for an even $100,000.00. That's a lot of money for a horse that will not pass on any heredity.

They worked with them and rode them for a year when the ranch cowboys got the middle group to select from where I suppose the remainder were sold.

Mike was very free about sharing all the information but had to be going. We talked about a lot of trails and other stuff and he was particularly interested in a trail I have spent a ton of time opening up including a couple of years off and on before coming to this ranch. I gave him the best descriptions I could on how to find and follow the trail and he commented if he couldn't find it he might have to try to get me to show it to him which I of course readily agreed to. I'm secretly hoping he can't find and follow it as that could give me another opportunity to pepper him with more questions.

Mike was very open but also very reserved and seemed to be a very gentle person. With him being involved in the training of close to one thousand colts over a three year period with very few that ever bucked, I am passionately interested in learning more about the training procedures used.

This is my very first opportunity to speak directly in person to someone who I think may actually know what he is doing, am very hopeful about the possible learning opportunity, and just wanted to share with someone somewhere. You're it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The Waggoneer/6666 Ranch (spoken as the 4 sixes) is where my Cowboy was bred, born, trained and registered. The Waggoneer switched over to natural horsemanship methods back in the 80's to train their horses.

If you look at his pictures closely you will see four brands on him. http://www.6666ranch.com/en/the-6666-story/6666-brands.html 

One on the left cheek (99 which was his dam's number for the year he was bred; Natural Country; http://crofootranches.com/horse-showcases/natural-country/; He looks like his mom. ), the L on his shoulder which is in memory of the founder's father in law, and then on his butt cheeks a brand on each cheek, the left being the year he was bred (05) and the right being his sire's number (12; Sevens from Heaven;http://www.6666ranch.com/en/quarter...-performance-stallions/seven-from-heaven.html ). The sound of a hissing pressurized hose near his face still can cause a severe pull back reaction from him.

Only the horses that are actually used for cattle work on the ranch are branded and then they eventually go on to sale after a certain age where they are then used for barrel racing or cattle working (team roping, cutting etc).










Butt shots aren't great as he his growing in his winter woolies but, if you click on the pics to blow them up, you can still make out the 5 on the left and the 2 on the bottom right next to the tail.


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## bsms

I don't remember who it was, but one of the old writers who broke a lot of horses said about 1/6 of the horses he broke would buck, and most of them only briefly and not very hard. If you could ride the first few bucks, most would then try something else. But I can't provide any more details because I don't remember where I read it.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs

Not sure we're talking about the same ranch. The Wagoner has only one "e" and carries triple D as it's brand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggoner_Ranch


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You are correct. 

I got confused. Four hours of sleep last night...

"Guy Waggoner would marry eight times. Among his succession of wives was Anne Burnett, granddaughter of Burk Burnett of the Four Sixes Ranch in Guthrie. 

Their brief union in 1922 combined two of the state's most historic ranches, but it ended with her rapid departure from the Waggoner, nonstop through eight ranch gates.

'Folks said she left the ranch in a Waggoner pickup and parked it at the drugstore in Vernon,' said a former cowhand. "They said it was still wearin' parts of those gates when she stepped out of it."


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## Hondo

Sometimes it seems the world is small. I happen to be living on Wagoner Road (only one g) in Arizona, as is Mike down the road. This ranch is over 100 years old and has the fourth generation on it. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the old West.

Whatever, it has been and is the opportunity of a lifetime for me. I've now added a fourth 6 year old colt to my "string" that has never had his feet trimmed. They are very ugly. He's getting settled down and hope to be trimming him in a couple of weeks. He has some sure fire very good blood. His momma who one of the ranch owner rides is out of a half andalusian/arabian on the bottom and a high bred quarter horse on top that has never had a colt that bucked. His daddy is a quarter horse with blood lines to one eyed or three eyed jack. Some important horse.

He has buddied up with Dragon really well and I'm glad as Dragon was third man out with Hondo and Rimmey. They are about the same age and were raised together so now I can go out with Hondo and Rimmey and Dragon will be happy to stay behind with Star, son of Windstar.

The Waggoner Ranch in Texas was sold as a result of feuding where the two sides would not even speak to one another. They've all had silver spoons since birth and must be fussing about one looking shinier than the other. They were given so much and are still not happy. Sad.


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## horseluvr2524

Seems like people don't appreciate things as much if they don't have to work for them. I didn't have to work to get my first horse as far as the purchase and upkeep goes, but boy did I have to work hard to turn her into a good citizen so I could actually have as much fun as the other girls my age were!

I knew several barrel... erm *cough* 'gaming' riders who ruined a horse every year, then their parents bought them a new one every year. Sad.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> The Waggoner Ranch in Texas was sold as a result of feuding where the two sides would not even speak to one another. They've all had silver spoons since birth and must be fussing about one looking shinier than the other. They were given so much and are still not happy. Sad.



I have actually met one of the "feuding" parties through a friend of mine. If I remember correctly he is a son of one of the lawsuit parties. 

He has a hay business locally. He strikes me as a bit eccentric but, not spoiled. He is perfectly happy running his own "little" ranch and cutting and selling his hay. 

When asked about the whole thing, he kind of shrugged. "End it already" was his take on things.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> "End it already" was his take on things.


Sounds like he had his head in the correct place. Feuding inheritors are just not that uncommon. Going on right here on this ranch. Same on the "farm" where I was raised which was homesteaded by my great grandfather. 

A lot of unnecessary unhappiness.............


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## gottatrot

Very interesting about the ranches, and also the volume of horses they train to be ridden.

I've been intrigued by this article from Equus magazine that Knightrider shared on Bsms' journal. It is something I've gradually trended toward over the past few years, doing a lot less direct opposition to horses and more "work arounds." 

The article explains how human adults have the prefrontal cortex in the brain which helps us with forethought and goal-oriented behavior. It allows us to think in a step-by-step fashion and plan, organize, evaluate. 
Teenagers have an immature prefrontal cortex, and horses have none at all. Which apparently leads to many of teens' "rash" decisions. Horse brains are designed to deal mainly with perception, fear, rapid movement and associative learning. 

Our brains collect information, and then we evaluate and decide how to respond. Horses don't have any part of the brain that holds back reactions after the perception happens. When they are waiting to respond, they are still perceiving. Once their brain thinks it "knows" about something, they will react. 

Today riding on the beach, we passed many, many things and Halla never spooked. Her brain has adapted to the environment of the beach and everything was perceived as normal. Suddenly, out of nowhere there was a white, styrofoam lunch container sitting on the sand. Huge spook, she veered away from it as soon as she spotted it. It was wrong. There was nothing that I could have done to make that object "not wrong" or have her not react to it, because once she perceived it as wrong she was not able to mull it over or think about choices in how she was going to react. 

Of course she could perceive my reactions to her spook and also associate how I've reacted in the past and how she's learned to respond to my rein cues with what happened next, and those all came into play as we continued on down the beach. 

I liked some of the ideas brought up in the article, creative ways to teach horses to adapt to things and learn without head on confrontation. Such as if a horse won't pick up the correct lead in an arena, just go straight down the middle and ask for the canter. Turn in whichever direction the horse picked up, and soon the horse will learn that a right circle means a right lead, and a left circle means a left lead. I've experienced this, that horses are so good at association they will learn on their own that turning one way or another is best done on one lead or the other, and so we can have horses that will switch leads in the air over jumps. 

(Not mentioned in the article) Horses also do backward association, and I think many animals are good at this. If a dog sits and something falls over, the dog might learn to sit when that thing falls over. If the horse started cantering and you stood up in two point a few times, the horse may learn to canter when you stand up in two point. I've experienced the backward association for good or bad many times with horses and other animals.

According to the article, it's very natural for us to approach things head on rather than using the indirect approach. But often we can get better results with a lot less difficulty if we use more indirect routes. Such as in the oxcart story.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> The article explains how human adults have the prefrontal cortex in the brain which helps us with forethought and goal-oriented behavior. It allows us to think in a step-by-step fashion and plan, organize, evaluate.
> Teenagers have an immature prefrontal cortex, and horses have none at all. Which apparently leads to many of teens' "rash" decisions. Horse brains are designed to deal mainly with perception, fear, rapid movement and associative learning.
> 
> Our brains collect information, and then we evaluate and decide how to respond. Horses don't have any part of the brain that holds back reactions after the perception happens. When they are waiting to respond, they are still perceiving. Once their brain thinks it "knows" about something, they will react.


This is why I have always urged caution when we take what we know of the human brain and apply it to horses. We tend to think that because a particular part of the human brain does or does not do something that in animals it must serve the exact same function and therefore the absence of that area means the function must also be absent. 

We have all heard stories though of people who have had their brains damaged and then other parts of the brain take over that function. Therefore we know it is possible for a necessary skill to adapt to another part of the brain. So what happens if there is a *necessary* skill but no part of the brain to process it? Could it be a very real possibility that the process could evolve in another part of the brain in a creature who has evolved in such different circumstances from our own? 

It is not unusual to see a warning similar to this one on discussions regarding brain function: "Before we proceed, it is important to remember that the same Brodmann area numbers in humans and primates often do not translate to other species. In addition, these Brodmann areas have been widely redefined, discussed, debated, and refined exhaustively based on cytoarchitecture, cortical functions, and brain plasticity."

It can be dangerous therefore to make the leap to say that because a horse does not have a certain area of the brain they are therefore entirely incapable of the function. One that really stood out to me was the processing of smells.

I only reviewed the three areas of the Human Pre-frontal cortex so as not to bore the snot out of y'all. BTW most of this is still highly theoretical; as in, we "Think" or "Suspect" due to antidotal evidence that it is the case rather than "know".

Read through the following list of current functions. I think you may find many that you know horses are quite capable of quite a few. But how? If they are missing this part of the brain?

The brain is still very much a mystery, even more true when it comes to animals.

Brodmann areas of the pre-frontal cortex ; 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 24, 25, 32, 44, 45, 46, and 47

Includes Functions:

*Area 8*: controls eye movements, manages uncertainty

*Area 9*: short term memory, evaluating recency, overriding automatic responses, verbal fluency, error detection, auditory verbal attention, inferring the intention of others, inferring deduction from spatial imagery, inductive reasoning, attributing intention, sustained attention involved in counting a series of auditory stimuli; Partially attributed to : empathy, idioms, processing pleasant and unpleasant emotional scenes, self criticisms and attention to negative emotions, attributing intention, theory of mind, suppressing sadness, working memory, spatial memory, recognition, recall, recognizing the emotions of others, planning, calculation, semantic and perceptual processing of odors, religiosity, and attention to positive emotions.

Area 14: Area 14 is believed to serve as association cortex for the visceral senses and olfaction along with Area 51. Its anatomical inputs also suggest that it helps to aggregate autonomic information.


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## Hondo

Where can I find the oxcart story? Sounds like it may be interesting.


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## bsms

It is risky to assume parts of the brain correlate. I do believe we can watch horses and figure out, at a minimum, that horses have a startle reaction, which may or may not be followed by a 'get away' survival reaction. They rely more on memory than on linear rational thought. They are emotional, but one book on brains and thinking argued (IIRC) that emotions were thoughts without quality control from logic. It said emotions were thoughts based more on memories.

The same guy said, I think - I had to cull my books a few months back and it didn't make the cut to keep - that the way to correct an incorrect emotion was to overwrite it with new remembered experiences. So if we had fear on a horse, we would need good experiences on a horse to gradually overwrite the bad ones. But those good experiences couldn't involve "pushing thru our fear" anymore than it can for a horse, because our subconscious minds, like the horse, are not good at distinguishing between tension and fear. So if you try to overwrite the bad experiences with new good ones, but you experience tension during these "good experiences", you actually reinforce the subconscious mind's fear. You are just adding more "bad experiences" to the ones you already had.

Thus it is important to calm a horse past things, not push it past - not if it is genuinely afraid.

And while you cannot stop a horse from startling (other than acclimatizing it to a new environment), you can teach the horse to check in with its rider before going into "run away" mode.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> This is why I have always urged caution when we take what we know of the human brain and apply it to horses. We tend to think that because a particular part of the human brain does or does not do something that in animals it must serve the exact same function and therefore the absence of that area means the function must also be absent.


I really like this. It goes along with a quote from @*Foxhunter* that I got from the thread called Ask-Tell-Demand. @*Hondo* is good at starting these thought-provoking threads.



> I have had horses that were difficult to bridle, they would throw their heads around and clamp their teeth shut. If that wasn't saying they didn't want the bit in their mouths I don't know what was.
> 
> Get the correct bit for that horse and kind understanding hands and after a while that same horse would open its mouth to take the bit without being asked.
> 
> *As humans we are very inclined to state that animals do not possess the ability to reason or have any logical skills. Not true at all. *
> 
> *Personally I never wanted to be a 'Horse Whisperer' but rather someone that listened to what animals have to say, then come to an agreement with them in the kindest way possible.*
> ~Foxhunter





> I used to be really into these discussions... until I realized that *an experienced horseman/woman's gut and instinct in a moment is far more pertinent, relevant, and useful than any philosophy or training technique ever will be*. ~Horseluvr


Yes, people try to explain "feel" and "timing" and a variety of philosophies. But it's just like with nursing. There are people who feel they are kind and caring, but they come across as harsh and unkind to patients. The ability to see things from other perspectives, and to get a read on how the horse is responding is perhaps something that can't be taught. 

I was thinking of this as I was jogging along with my two horses today, they were both out in front of me on the lead ropes, which I know would make some worry about things like disrespect or training philosophies. But even though the horses tugged me occasionally when they got too far ahead, their eyes were soft, we were running as a team of three, and their relaxed body language told the story. No one was trying to take control, and I was confident that if something came up I could reel them in and we'd gather ourselves into a semblance of order. 
It seems better to not adhere to hard and fast rules most of the time with horses, but rather to have guidelines that rely on a constant assessment and adjustment based on what is happening at the time. 

I've worried about the idea of as gentle as possible, as harsh as necessary, because I've thought some could take this way too far. I've said that I have absolutes about never harming the horse. But those who would struggle with this are not true horsemen with the gut feelings and instincts that @*HorseLuvr* describes. When I read posts about those who have been harsh with horses versus those who have been lenient, I believe I can tell based on the personality that comes across in the posts whether those things were seen as fair by the horse. 

We all have different horses and so the approaches we must use are innumerable. There is no one way and our techniques have to change with every horse we encounter. The biggest factor is who we are, and gaining more knowledge and experience gives us more tools to help. But even at the beginning, we had everything we needed for success, which was being a person who tries to do what is best for the horse and learns from mistakes. 

I'm laughing at myself, having created a "monster." Amore loves going out on our walks and recreation times so much that now when I take Halla out for a ride at night she whinnies and gets upset. She has zero separation anxiety, that's something I've never seen signs of in her. But she now thinks every time I take Halla out in the evening (she doesn't do it in the day) that we're going to Disneyland without her. 

Today they enjoyed visiting some of the horses.








We came across a lone elk, and she seemed a little confused. As we trotted by near her, she got swept into our herd mentality and started following us. Elk seem to have a strong follow reflex, similar to cows. I've ridden through a group of cows and then heard a noise and turned to see forty cows in a line following after us. And people at my barn have accidentally been chased by a herd of elk the same way. This female followed and stopped to graze with us, before finally seeming to realize there was something not quite right about all this and turning off on her own.


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## Hondo

FWIW, sending a cowboy in front of a herd for them to follow is an often used technique in droving.


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## knightrider

@Hondo, the oxcart story is the same as the bullock cart story. I forget that those creatures are called bullocks. I think you already know it, but here it is again, for anyone else who hasn't read it. One of my favorites!

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/6510/e9fvjC.jpg


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## Hondo

@knightrider Thanks, I had forgotten the name of the story. I'm pretty sure it's in one of my books, I forget which one. Good story and message. Thanks again.


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## bsms

It is found in Tom Robert's Horse Control - The Young Horse.


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## gottatrot

Today was our annual parade with the mini horses. The temperature was in the mid-90s. Which is insanity here. Our usual summer days hit highs in the 70s, so for example people don't have A/C in their houses, and I don't have any in my car.
We did our best to keep horses and dogs cool.

As we were inching along on the mile or so we have to line up and wait our turn as the parade begins, something stung Eddie, one of the mini horses. That's our best guess, because he started freaking out like he was hung up on something in the harness, but he wasn't. So he galloped in place and was going berserk, and the driver turned him off to try to let that energy go somewhere and ended up toppling out of the cart and getting run over by it. 

So she was bruised up, felt like it was hard to move her arm and might have broken a rib. We pulled Eddie off the cart, and decided to have one person pull the cart while my injured friend rode in it. I ground drove Eddie since he seemed calm enough and we couldn't find any swollen areas - but one friend had felt something on his sheath that she swatted off right after he was freaking, and we suspected it bit him.

Eddie was a little antsy for much of the parade. But after several miles in the hot, hot sun, he was calm and we still had about a mile to go when the parade ended. So my friend that was pulling the cart was about done in and thought we might try Eddie again to see how he'd do. 

I insisted we take out my injured friend, and put someone capable in the seat. I held Eddie by the bridle. After about a minute or so, he seemed very calm so I let go. That's when he ramped immediately up again and darted off. I was yelling for my friend to turn him toward me so I could grab his bridle, but she couldn't and they raced by as I sprinted after (with my little Papillon in my arms). 

She headed for a long, tall fence and Eddie put on the brakes and slid into it at the last second, almost sitting down. He was turning to take off again, and my friend dove over the front of the cart like you see in Western movies and was clinging onto his harness. Eddie was beginning to take off, and I saw he was going to start dragging her and then the cart was going to run over the top of her. So I lunged for one side of the bridle, got a hold by doing a baseball slide. He got a couple more steps in and the cart rolled over my leg as I held on for dear life, and my friend leaped up and got a better hold of the bridle. That was just before I decided the cart was going to keep rolling over the rest of me and I was figuring out where to throw my dog so he'd be safe. 

We stripped everything off poor Eddie, and he was uninjured. So he'll need a little retraining to remember that carts don't grab you and burn you in the private parts, which was apparently what he was afraid would happen again. Well, I have a few bumps and bruises and everyone seems to have minor injuries. One of the teen girls who was in the parade with us sagely said, "All horses are dangerous, even if they're little." 

















We still had fun...of course.


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## bsms

I'm worn out, and I just read your post...


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## knightrider

Wow, what an adventure. How is everybody now? Healing I hope?

Years ago, my impatient little appaloosa couldn't wait for me to hop in my cart and took off trotting just as a car came over the hill. As soon as she took off, I leaped into the cart to stop her. The car came barreling over the hill, hit the cart, knocked it sideways, then hit my mare. When the car hit the cart, it knocked off a wheel, and my mare bolted. We were flying down the road with only one wheel, then flipped over, trapping me underneath the cart (talk about road rash!). Then my appie turned down a side road for home, and jumped our four foot fence into our pasture. She made it over the fence. The cart didn't.

We all healed. My husband fixed the cart and I mended the harness. But although I tried for a year to rehabilitate my good driving horse, I couldn't do it. I practiced and practiced taking baby steps, having her drag tires, manual manure spreaders, small stuff, graduating to bigger stuff, and finally the cart. She'd go along perfectly, making nice baby steps, but suddenly, out of the blue, she'd suddenly flip out, bolt, and smash up the cart. I never trusted her enough to be sitting in it. I hadn't graduated that far. But the third time my husband fixed the cart and I mended the harness, I sold it.

I do hope that Eddie is driveable again. When I was trying so hard to rehabilitate my mare, I was told by several people that once the Amish horses get hit, the Amish sell them. I was told it is very hard to rehabilitate a horse that has been hit. I hope that Eddie doesn't react that way, and I'll be anxious to hear how his re-training goes. I hope it goes great.

Now I have to tell a funny (now, not funny then) parade story from seeing Eddie not like the balloons. My Medieval jousting troupe was invited to ride our horses in the Preakness parade in Baltimore one year. We had ridden in piles of parades and were excited to be invited. When we arrived, they would not let us park our trailers at the end of the parade route, which is something I try really hard to always do. But they WOULD NOT, no matter how we cajoled. 

Baltimore is an old city with narrow streets and tall skyscrapers. We had never ridden in downtown Baltimore before. We were used to the wide streets and low buildings in Washington DC. When we got the horses in those two lane streets, with 40 story buildings on either side, the noise reverberated deafeningly. It was a nightmare. And then, in the next block, some vendor had come along selling huge inflated crayola crayons. The kids came rushing at us, pounding our horses with the huge inflated crayons and screaming at us, with the screams echoing over and over between the towering buildings. I couldn't get done with that parade soon enough.

But when it was over, our trailers were 4 miles away! And all those narrow streets now open to traffic! There was no way to get our horses back to the trailers. So, I was commandeered to hold four horses, while 3 owners walked 4 miles to get our trailers and CRAWL through heavy traffic back to me. While I held the 4 horses on a narrow crowded sidewalk next to skyscrapers, suddenly shots rang out. Someone had been murdered! A high school marching band, all dressed in purple, waiting for their school bus, came literally screaming at me (and the others who were holding 4 horses each). Suddenly 40 teenagers dressed in purple capes were pelting towards us. Luckily they ran pretty fast, and were past the horses before any of them got away.

If I ever was invited to ride in the Preakness parade again, I wouldn't do it for a million dollars!


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## gottatrot

Wow, Knightrider, your parade experience and cart accident were both insane. I've always heard that if you think wrecks are bad with horses when they're being ridden, horse wrecks when they're being driven are much worse. Which has kept us from turning retired horses like Amore into driving horses if they're not suitable mentally.

Glad to hear the insight about retraining driving horses that have been in accidents. It wouldn't surprise me a whole lot if Eddie had continuing problems. He was in two parades successfully, but both times he was in a team and I think it helped to have another horse there to steady him. My friends plan to start him over with dragging a tire and pole shafts, before hooking him up to a cart again. I said he is a little Arabian, because he has a dished face and buggy little eyes, and he is very prancy and hot for a mini. He might not drive in a parade again, but I said he's so cute we could just pony him behind a cart if need be or lead him.

It would be good for people to hear more stories before putting their horses in parades. I remember people asking on the forum about riding quite green horses in a parade and my advice is that it's rather crazy to even take bomb proof types in parades. There are probably thirty horses in this small parade we go in each year, and we've seen several accidents over the years. 

We had to run the minis away from a group of Clydesdales one year, because the big guys started freaking out when they saw the minis. Nothing else bothered them but they wanted to jump back into their horse trailer when they saw the creepy little horses wearing floppy hats.

Last year a helicopter kept buzzing over really low and that was tough. The year before some thunder cracked and we saw a girl get bucked off a horse onto the road. She was OK.
People have no concept about horses and will let their kids just run up even with bare feet right under the horses' hooves. And horses need to be able to stand and wait for long periods of time. Most years we actually trot parts of the parade but this year it went so slowly that we only walked. I can't imagine either of my big horses making it through without a major accident.


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## knightrider

I liked reading your parade stories. Thanks for sharing.

Our Medieval group did about 6 parades a year, so we got fairly experienced. The best "starter" parades, my opinion, are rodeo parades. There are lots of horses, but no fire engines, drum and bugle corps, or noisy flapping floats. When people want to try their horse in a parade, I encourage them to first do a rodeo parade. 

When my daughter rode her filly in her first parade, the filly was terrified of our friend's mini donkey. Something about those minis?

Our Medieval group had a problem with folks "lending" their horses to inexperienced boyfriends or girlfriends to ride in parades, and we had some spectacular wrecks. Some of my friends and I came up with a test that the rider had to pass before they were allowed to ride in a parade with our group. 

Here is what I remember from the test:
1. Saddle and bridle your horse unassisted. (This hopefully weeds out the hopeless beginners riding their friends' horses)
2. Mount unassisted with your horse standing quietly.
3. Trot in and out of a set of 8 cones without breaking into a canter or walk.
4. Canter a figure 8, demonstrating a lead change, trot being allowed in the center of the 8.
5. Ride at a full gallop, throw a javelin at a target and come reasonably close to hitting it, then stop within 60 feet.

I might have forgotten a few of the required elements, but it was a pretty good test and weeded out a lot of folks who had no business trying to ride in a parade.


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## egrogan

While I never had any thoughts of riding in a parade, your stories have completely solidified my opinion of the idea! Terrifying!!


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## bsms

When I was a kid in high school & in the HS band, I had to march in a parade advertised as the largest unmechanized (thus horses) parade int he world. I mostly remember how the **** and poo collected at some corners. NOT fun to march through! Not much fun cleaning the uniforms afterward either.

Bandit is turning into a more normal horse, but he'll always be cautious. I cannot imagine him in a parade. He still views garbage cans with some suspicion, even after going past a thousand without being attacked. It is one of many things in riding life that I'm just going to have to take a pass on.

Fun to hear about others doing it, but I don't think it would be fun to be on top of Bandit in one.


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## gottatrot

Last night I bought some new fly spray, Bronco Gold, brought it home and sprayed it on Amore. Unfortunately, she is apparently allergic to it since today she has welts all over in big, spread out blotches right where the fly spray landed on her.
She didn't seem too bothered, but you can sort of see the welts in this picture:









Here's a great picture of Nala from this week - she's certainly fit and muscled.









I thought this photo was great too, with Halla looking like the little power house she is. The elk are lying down peacefully in the background.
We saw today why there were so many lone elk wandering around the past couple weeks. Lots of new babies with one of the herds, at least five very tiny ones.


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## bsms

All I can see is a note from Photobucket requiring some change to allow 3rd party hosting.


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## bsms

"The *Plus 500* subscription is the only current option for off-site photo hosting at this time...PLUS 500 / 502.0 GB Storage $39.99 / mo, *Billed Annually $399.99 / YR*"

What subscription do I need for 3rd party hosting? ? Photobucket Support

Photobucket Plus Storage | Photobucket

Also:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rant/comments/6jbyhp/photobucket_has_changed_their_tos_to_not_allow/

Yikes! Hope the place where I have my photos doesn't follow suit! $400 annually to share photos?


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## gottatrot

Testing out a photo from my new software I installed for photo hosting. If I want to link to pictures on Photobucket now, it would cost me $40 a month. 
I already pay $10 a month for a baby hostgator account - for that price I can have blogs, websites, a phpbb forum (like this one, only smaller), and easily just installed some software called Gallery so I can upload my pics to the hostgator servers and link to them. I've used hostgator for several years and for anyone interested in having a blog, webpage or forum I recommend them. I just didn't think of using them for photo storage. 

Wish I'd done this sooner. Now I have to investigate if there is any way to restore all the broken links.


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## Dragoon

Thats a great photo of Nala!!
Wish I could get my guys that fit!

Quick question, how do you know when your horse is galloping? 
A few of us were riding in the outdoor ring yesterday, and wondering about galloping. I cantered my pony around and was urging him to go, but it didn't feel any different, just like a faster canter...the one girl who tried did get a gallop down the long side. I think. Her horse sped up quite a bit for a few strides...
And do horses go nutty when asked to gallop? Will they slow back down?
I wish I had access to a racetrack, it is wide and safe.


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## gottatrot

Also, although it is cumbersome, if you right click on any of the broken links and click "open image in new tab" you can see the photos. They are still hosted by Photobucket so are on their page but you just can't show them on other pages.
I'm hoping for a workaround because I would like to delete my Photobucket account and move all my pics.










Last night I did something rather insane. Nala's rider texted and said she was out riding with Cass, so I rushed out the door and drove off to the barn. Upon arrival, I realized I hadn't brought my saddle or boots. So I put a bareback pad on Halla and still rode her down to the beach. July 3rd, rather a busy beach day, and the wind was blowing at a steady 20 mph or so. 

Someone has planted a giant flag right at our beach access, and it snapped and flapped loudly as I went by on Halla.
Despite all that, we caught up to Nala right at the end of her ride (she had left Cass at a beach access a half mile prior). So we walked and trotted about a mile and then headed back home. No incidents, no regrets, although I knew I might not stay on if things went sideways. I may be a little sore later since Halla's "jog" is more of a jackhammer jig.


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## gottatrot

Slightly stressful but very fun day today. Went horse shopping with my friend who might be remembered on this journal for her incident last summer where Amore tripped, fell and sent my friend plowing into her head on the sand. Which sent Amore into retirement. 

This friend is also the one who leased a horse this spring that got away from her and went galloping down the beach, then tied up and had some type of autoimmune issue and was also retired. 

With these types of experiences, I've been hoping her horse life would turn around.

She's been "window shopping," and shown me quite a few horse ads online. She's gone and looked at a couple. She's been busy and open to the idea of finding the right horse, but also was in no hurry. Every horse ad she's shown me, I've picked over with her and pointed out flaws and helped rule the horses out. So she hasn't been looking for awhile.

A couple weeks ago, my friend showed me an ad for a horse on FB. Except this time we looked, criticized, and ended up unable to find anything that would rule the horse out. So she decided to go check him out last week. She got pictures and video, and I thought he sounded nice and moved well. So today she arranged for a vet check and drove us up there (about 2.5 hours). I worked my night shift and we left right after, so I was drinking coffee and trying not to be a zombie.

At the barn where the horse was boarded, the person showing the horse had not arrived but the barn owner had us sign waivers and then said to take him out and do whatever. As we drove up and saw the horse in the field, I _still_ liked him and couldn't see major problems. 

The horse is 17.2 hands, 9, and an interesting conglomeration of breeds. I'm beginning to like crosses more and more. This gelding is Canadian Sport Horse/Paint/Percheron/TB. Legs like tree trunks, massive but steep and hard hooves with lots of sole (always barefoot), built slightly uphill. Before we took him out of the field, he came up and was hamming for us to try to get bites of grass. He let my friend walk in and halter him, and we led him around, picked up his feet, trotted him, I looked in his mouth, we picked up his tail, tied him for awhile, and he was just happy to have some new friends. 

When the vet came, we got a little worried. She had difficulty hiding the fact that she really liked the horse. Both my friend and I wondered if she might say there was an issue so _she_ could buy the horse. Seriously. In the end, she said he had good hooves, legs, teeth, personality, what more could you want? 

The person showing us the horse was his trainer. She said he'd never had an english saddle on, so we put my friend's dressage saddle on and he didn't blink. The only problem was that the owner didn't have the locker where his bridle was open, she was at work and not answering texts for the combination. My friend tried her bit on him and it was probably an inch short. The trainer said he'd been ridden in a halter before, so we thought maybe we couldn't test him out well in a halter but it was worth a shot.

This big boy went around the arena in his rope halter like he was in a double bridle. Flexed left and right, did some lateral stuff, big reaching trot and nice, round canter. It was hot, he was massive and out of shape (his owner is apparently nervous about falling after an accident last year on another horse). I saw a video of the owner riding and it looked like she was trying to get him to move very slow. But he is a big mover, and both my friend and I had him move forward and he was easy to get moving for the size of his body and had lots of bend. 

If you can't tell by now, I was in love, the vet was in love, and my friend is going to pick him up next week. :smile: We just have to find a trailer big enough.

Both of us noticed one thing about the horse which might interest some on the forum. This horse is massive and has draft blood. After a cue, it took him about a half second to process the cue, and then about another half second to feel his body react to it. The trainer was admittedly a Clinton Anderson type. When we did some things with the horse such as lunging, it was easy to see this training had been used on him. While he was still thinking about the cue, he was doing stuff with his body trying to figure out the right response. Moving before understanding. Meanwhile looking a bit apprehensive about the lead rope or lunge whip in our hand, waiting for the correction to come.

On the way home, we discussed how his personality type did not seem to be wanting to react sharply, but it seemed he'd been made to jump before he knew what he was supposed to be doing exactly, hoping the right answer might just happen so he'd escape the correction. He's big and mellow, so he wasn't overly nervous or sharp, but still reacting before thinking it through. We talked about how he would almost certainly become a more settled and also happier horse if he was giving just a second or two to think and respond before whapping on him or chasing him. It seemed that his trainer valued getting a response quickly over getting the horse to understand the why and what the right answer was.


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## bsms

> As we drove up and saw the horse in the field, I _still_ liked him and couldn't see major problems.
> 
> The horse is 17.2 hands...


As a guy at 59, you just mentioned a major problem...about 12 inches of major problem! :rofl:


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## mckenzies

Pics!!


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## gottatrot

> As a guy at 59, you just mentioned a major problem...about 12 inches of major problem! ~_bsms_


This big, you almost forget you can fall off them. Everything happens more slooowly.


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## bsms

That big, and you can read War and Peace cover to cover WHILE you are falling! :winetime:


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## horseluvr2524

Wow! I'm so glad that your friend found a nice horse. He is gorgeous too! Sounds like a winner and a keeper. I like horses that process a tad slower but are big movers, as I tend to be that way myself. I always think I'm more like a donkey than a horse, as I'm stubborn and like to stop and think a situation through before reacting.


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## tinyliny

oh, I like that! "moving before understanding" to describe EXACTLY what I dislike about he CA way of lunging.


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## gottatrot

Here's a picture of my friend on Amore who is standing very awkwardly as if she senses a photo is being taken for posterity.








​
And on her soon-to-be-new horse Indy - so you can see the size comparison. I like how she looks on him.


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## Dragoon

Your friend's smile says it all!

I wonder if Indy can keep up with your Arabians when you go galloping? I know very little about how speed relates to size...I'd wager that the draft types of horse would be very slow, and the Arabians speedy, but perhaps the length of stride will enable him to keep up. Forget Nala, she is in another class of speed altogether...

Amore is cute as a button! So much personality in all her photos. She doesn't do the blank-horse-face look.


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## gottatrot

Did I ride today? No.

Look at this horse with her giant, innocent eyes. She is a cold, heartless killer.








What is the center of Amore's universe? Food. And whatever comes near her food dies (humans excepted). 

Which is why I find myself tired and doing this a few times a day:









Mama rat apparently came near Amore's feeder, which is where we found her dazed, concussed and dying last night. So we put her aside to recover or die, and two babies came out looking for her. Their eyes are open and they have fur, and probably after I feed them a couple weeks and set them free something will eat them. But I feel responsible...what can I say?
It just so happens that my work had baby formula (which is apparently good to feed baby rats), and tiny syringes, and so the babies are still alive so far.

I watched a documentary once called "The Secret of Nimh," which illustrated how rats are intelligent and live fulfilling (and perhaps magical?) lives, so although my friends are poisoning them and stomping on them, I'm trying to get them set up in apartments of their own. 

Well, perhaps my priorities are mixed up but I enjoy going out at night and seeing how the snail party is unfolding in my flower pots. It's like a club for snails - they're all waving their antennae around and it makes me think maybe I just can't hear their music. We all gotta live, right? 










I've never known a horse that killed small animals like Amore.

We kept finding rats drowned in her water buckets, and finally figured out she must pick them up and put them in there. I've seen her stomp a rat for taking a piece of grain off the floor of her stall. We've found a stomped snake in her stall. She broke my friend's dog's tooth, and that was the second time she had kicked him in the head. My friend got serious about controlling his chasing after that. 
She also gave my dog skull fractures a few years ago when he got out of his collar. I've also seen her step on cats a couple times purposefully. If I see a small animal coming near my horse, I get nervous and get it out of there.


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## gottatrot

Today was probably the slowest ride we've ever done on the beach. 

Just before we were supposed to meet up, Nala's rider texted and said one of her dogs had died suddenly so she wasn't able to come. Very sad.

So I rode a mile down the beach to meet up with the gal who rides Cass, the giant draft cross. 

Halla went out quickly, and we trotted and cantered toward the beach access where Cass' rider parks her trailer. We didn't see any sign of a horse on the beach, so we started up the steep dune toward the parking lot, which excited Halla very much since we never go that way. She galloped up to the top, and then when we crested the ridge she saw that there were two horses and a trailer below. That certainly made her pause and size up the situation. Then she saw it was Cass, the horse she thinks is a bit of a dumbo. So she put her nose in the air and we went down and stood waiting for the others. 

There was a new, handsome fellow Halla had not met yet. Brave is a 7 year old, just getting started under saddle. He has just a few rides on him total, and had never been to the beach. Cass' rider had decided to bring him along and pony him off Cass.

Brave is more beautiful in person, a golden dun. He looks like a Kiger mustang but not quite, because he is Kiger/Friesian/Arab. About 15.1 hands. Halla thought he was very interesting, probably because he was only recently gelded so still has some hormones floating around. 

Brave was very well behaved, but of course it is difficult having a brand new green horse ponying along, so we walked the entire ride - about six miles. Took quite awhile but it was a gorgeous evening and a great experience. Only two things got Brave to startle a bit. One was a little boy carrying a green shovel and swinging it around as he walked down the beach, and the other was two little Shih Tzu type dogs yapping and biting each other (they were on leashes). Everything else he took in stride.

Halla was very calm, and after we left the other horses we trotted and cantered on home but she was very accepting of the milder, slower type of exercise. 
Brave







Cass' rider commented on Halla's hindquarter muscling - she gets more muscle than any Arab I've been around.











Very golden, very Brave.









The rat babies are doing well. I couldn't believe it, but I found a third baby at the barn yesterday...still alive. She must have made the leap to solid food on her own (they were nesting under a grain bin) but was wandering around looking dazed and a little dehydrated so I brought her home. The others were very happy to see her.


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## gottatrot

Pondering today over some things... 

These are some things I've gone away from in my life with horses:

Seeing your relationship with horses as a struggle for dominance where the horse takes over if you stop showing you are the boss. Feeling that all horses need to be strictly obedient so they won't get worse and worse behaviors and finally get out of control and hurt people. Thinking of working and riding with horses as similar to military maneuvers that must be performed immediately and with precision, and that otherwise you have a poorly trained horse.

Believing that horses feel that if you get off them to make them do something, they have won a battle and now you are losing control. Or that not being able to get a horse to do something on a certain day will ruin their training. Putting horses in a box that all horses should behave a certain way and respond to training the same. Thinking that some certain tools will work for every horse if you use them the same way.

I was remembering how when I got Amore I believed that if I bought a horse with a versatile body type (not gaited, average size and build), that I could choose any discipline and do whatever I wanted with my horse. 
At least to a certain level. I knew I couldn't have an Arab mare doing high level jumping or superb dressage movements, but I believed that she could be taught to do the elements of any basic thing I wanted to train her to do.

What I discovered was that personality is the biggest factor in training horses. Secondly, I discovered that physical aptitude is another huge factor in training horses. A horse will try to do anything for a human that he is able to do. But the mental and physical horse prevent most horses from doing many things, and also determine how they will respond to any training at all.

My parents always told us we were smart, but they didn't tell us we could do anything we wanted to. Our horses can't really do anything we want them to either. That's unrealistic. I spent my first few years owning a horse rather disappointed as I discovered all the things my horse couldn't do. She couldn't do western pleasure, wasn't suitable for Arab style hunt seat, couldn't do dressage, couldn't jump well. She was never going to be bomb proof, never a completely relaxing ride. 

Eventually I wondered why I was focusing on all the things I couldn't do with my horse and instead why didn't I try enjoying all the things my horse could do? It turns out there were a lot of those too. Plus along the way I learned to drop the idea of horses as trained precision instruments and began valuing the differences in their personalities and physical bodies. The giant horse my friend is bringing home tomorrow is far different from Amore. He will have many things he can't do, such as endurance. But there will be so many ways to enjoy him too.

That's when I started having _fun_. Instead of working toward goals that other people thought were good to have for horses, such as sidepassing perfectly under saddle, I began doing the things that I liked to do with horses. 

How many months or even years did I spend trying to get Halla to stay in a trot and maintain an even trot whenever I asked her? Exercise in complete futility. 
So guess what...now I don't argue about it at all. If she picks up the canter early, I ask her to maintain the slower pace we were going at the trot. She can do that, and this makes her happy. Keeping her trotting was only an argument I was never going to win. She could slide into a canter as smoothly as butter, no matter what I did to prevent it.

The thing is, now that I've stopped focusing on that "thing all horses must do," if I ever really need Halla to trot, she will. She did not appreciate being asked to trot when there was no reason for it. Now that I only ask for it when it is necessary, she complies because I'm not bothering her about it all the time. So basically, the more time I spent working on the problem, the more it was a problem. When I stopped trying to make my horse into a robot, she decided I was all right and she could work with me. 

Essentially, with these two horses I have, the more freedom and casualness I maintain around training, the better behaved and more compliant they are. If I let Halla take a few strides of galloping off after Nala or up a dune, she gets calm and lets me take her back down after a couple moments. If I fight her and tell her that was not my idea, she gets hot and bothered and argumentative. 
If I try to make the horses lead exactly by my shoulder, they lift their heads and prance and worry. If I let them wander around in the vicinity of my body as we walk, they are calm, cool and happy to please me. 

All horses are not like this. But many are, so I believe in not trying to follow a bunch of rules but rather going with the flow and being flexible about what works with your horse. Quiet, calm, patient; horses love these things and work well with them. Strict, quick to punish, unbending; much more stressful for horses. And I really like horses, so I dislike causing them stress and angst if I don't need to.


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## knightrider

I like, like like, LIKE, LOVE this post. I plan to print it out and show it to people who come to my place to ride. There are so few people who talk this way, and in my opinion, Gottatrot, you are so right!

When I was a kid in 4-H, I really struggled with the mindset you described in your post. My 4-H leader, the judges, the clinics--all were pressuring me to do those things. I had a fat grade pinto green broke off a truck from Wyoming--and he knew exactly what he wanted to do and be. And even as a young teen, I had this strong feeling that somehow what they were telling me just didn't click. In my 4-H were talented kids who were showing at the Washington International Horse Show and winning, and they were doing those tough things, but even then, I knew it wasn't right for me and my horse. Still, I was a kid, and I tried (and failed a lot) with my Western pinto.

I had a breakthrough when I discovered how beautifully he rode without a saddle or bridle. I could do all kinds of turns and jumps with no tack. I love the way you put everything, and in my opinion, you couldn't be more correct.


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## bsms

They need an "*AMEN & Hallelujah!*" button!


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## Hondo

Saved............!


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## gottatrot

I posted this on a thread by @lightning:



> I've grown so skeptical after having so many professional vets, farriers, body workers tell me one thing and then I've found out definitive proof of what was actually the problem with the horse.
> That's why when people say on the forum "it's not pain," or "the vet came and the saddle fitter so it can't be the tack or a health issue," I say to still keep watching and checking things out.
> 
> I have very good professionals around my area, and yet they frequently miss things. Short of putting a horse into a whole body scanner, how could we expect the vet to find every possibility? There is a lot of guess work involved and theorizing what a problem might be, even with good professionals.
> 
> I believe owners have to do 90% of the work ourselves, and steer the exams and tests in the right direction. So many issues with horses seem behavioral and the horse's symptoms seem random or vague, until we find out the exact cause and then things make perfect sense.
> I've also found with some horses that something I thought must be serious was caused by something so silly and minor, such as a girth that pushed up against the elbow or a tiny scab that was rubbing. Or the tiniest feeling of being off was actually a major bone spur that was hurting the horse with every step.
> 
> It is so invaluable to talk to other horse people and find out what things they've discovered wrong with their horses. I've known people who had horses with major behavioral problems and they found things like a fractured molar, facial nerve pain, loss of vision (or floaters), DSLD, Lyme disease, kissing spine, and more. So the more cases I hear about, the more it makes me want to look for a physical problem first, and then work on the behavioral issues.


It is the same with humans. Someone absolutely writhing in pain often turns out to have the most minor and temporary issue, while someone who complains of a small, vague ache often turns out to have something major and systemic wreaking havoc on their body.

*********************************************************
Well, after blaming Amore for being a rat killer, I learned that probably the rat we found dying at the barn recently was poisoned. Another boarder told me she saw another dying rat, and that the barn owner had said she'd put out rat poison awhile back. 

Several days after finding the first two babies and their mother dying, I found a third baby rat near where the others had been. That one only lived another couple days, then died suddenly even though it seemed to be doing well. 

Now the two babies are approaching the age for weaning in a couple of days. The female just suddenly started growing like crazy a couple days ago, and she is eating solid food and drinking on her own. The male is still very tiny and seemed dehydrated yesterday despite having the exact same treatment as the female. 
I'm not sure if he will pull through, and now I wonder if the babes got some poison in the milk before their mother died.

Apparently some of the rat poisons take around a week to work. Some work by dehydration, so I gave the little male two injections of saline under his skin yesterday to see if that might offset any dehydration if he was poisoned. I'm a nurse, it seemed simple, what can I say.

I know it's strange, many people don't understand saving rats. I guess I just can't see a helpless baby dying and leave it to starve and suffer.
I told a coworker I had to go home because I had a little rat to feed. She said, "Aww, is it a niece?" I said, "No, it's a rat." She said, "Yes, but what is it, a little kiddo?" And I said, "No, it's an R-A-T, rat." The look on her face was very interesting. 

What I don't care for is our human style of dealing with problems. If there are rats in the barn, put out poison. But since rats are smart and will avoid foods if they see other rats die from eating it, we make our poisons take effect slowly. So cats and birds and dogs can eat the poisoned rat. Plus we have no idea how long these poisons live in the soil and how they taint the environment as they leach out of the dead rat body. 

There are many dozens of rats in the fields around our barns. Killing a few will not stop more from coming in if we leave our grain spilled out and uncovered. I watched a documentary on rats and was appalled at how in New York they just set their garbage out in bags on the street, not in a can. In the country we know that would give us rats, raccoons, possums, coyotes, skunks, etc.

Then they poison the rats. The rats spread disease because they go down in the sewers where the city puts everyone's waste and then come up to eat the food that is placed out for them and walk around with their feet that just went into human waste. Where rats are a problem, human hygiene is a problem. Rat don't take over areas of open country where there are raptors galore and humans aren't feeding them. So I don't see why we have to be inhumane and without thinking of the consequences, throw out poison. If I had a rat get into my house, I'd assume my food was not put away well enough and that I hadn't sealed the exterior sufficiently.

That's my rant on rats. :wink: An interesting article on how Portland, OR treats their rats differently.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/how-portlands-rat-control-efforts-helped-prevent-the-plague/371195/


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## Light

Hi. Hope it is okay that I post here. 

At the ranch I am at, they have a problem with squirrels. squirrels dig holes. They dig in my horse's pasture, but I fill in the holes every day. No problem. The holes can't get big enough in a day to cause a problem. Easy fix. 

The ranch doesn't see it that way and pays 3 men in trucks to go driving around and shoot the squirrels. Yes, shoot them on the ranch. Near the horses, near their pastures, near the arenas when people are riding. They don't use real guns and bullets but they use air rifles and or pellet guns. I think it is air rifles because it makes this wonderful "PPPFFFFT" noise that, as you can imagine, the horses just love. (not really). These guys do this about once a month. Sometimes they do it several times a month. Guess it depends on how much they feel like killing helpless animals in any given month. 

So, if one doesn't think about the cruelty and inhumanity of it all, or the safety issues, one still must realize how absolutely ridiculously stupid it is to think that by shooting a few squirrels you are going to even make a drop in the bucket. So, it is cruelty for no other reason than to be cruel and kill living creatures that cannot in any way actually do anything about it. 

On a trail ride with the competitive trail/ Arabian trainer, friend, whom I work for when I can, we came upon a baby squirrel so young the eyes weren't open yet. The little squirrel "Squiddles" was dehydrated and didn't look like she would make it. My friend got off her horse and picked up the little thing and put her in her shirt and that was the end of the trail ride. 

Squiddles had to be fed often and cleaned etc. You never appreciate a mother animal until you have to care for one of their young. My friend worked this all into her training schedule. Squiddles made it the first week and the second and continued to grow and thrive. She integrated well with my friends cat and her two dogs. My friend bought at first a small cage and then larger and larger and more elaborate as time went on. I tried to politely bring up the fact that the time would come when she would have to let Suiddles go out and be squirrel. She agreed but it wasn't time yet. 

I visited her at the house only once after the addition of the squirrel. Not because I have a problem with squirrels, just that there wasn't a need to. Squiddels would cuddle and run up her arm and perch on my friends shoulder. She would try to communicate with clucks and chirps. I got to witness the cat and squirrel playing, then the dog and squirrel. My friend told me of how she had tried to set Squiddels free but she wouldn't leave and would run back into the house or up my friends leg. It was done. At 14 weeks Squiddels had won her way to become a pampered house squirrel and part of a family. 

About a week later, while outside playing, Squiddels died. Don't know why or how but she was gone. 

My friend has a real problem with the squirrel shooters now, as do I. I truly feel that everything has a right to live and is capable of being loved. Well everything except Squirrel Shooters. 

Kind of a really long way to say "I get it!"


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## gottatrot

lightning said:


> So, if one doesn't think about the cruelty and inhumanity of it all, or the safety issues, one still must realize how absolutely ridiculously stupid it is to think that by shooting a few squirrels you are going to even make a drop in the bucket. So, it is cruelty for no other reason than to be cruel and kill living creatures that cannot in any way actually do anything about it.


Exactly. I'm glad someone else gets it. 

*******************************************************
When I got to the barn today I had this feeling that something was wrong.
It was the sound...instead of relaxed munching, I heard this frantic, fast paced chew-chew-chew. So I opened the door from the feed room that looks out into Halla and Amore's night pens, and saw that Amore was in Halla's stall and trying to put away 17 lbs of hay as quickly as she could before someone noticed she was in the wrong place. Halla's feed pan usually has a few crumbs left in the bottom and it was licked clean and shiny too.

A helper had turned the horses in tonight and mixed up which bay was which. Halla was over in Amore's pen just watching and shaking her head.

Monday I have my nieces and nephew coming to play with the horses. I'm trying to figure out what to do with them. The nieces are twins, 11, and usually I've led them around on both horses. Their brother is 8 and likes to ride also. These kids are smart, and the girls are very tall for their age, almost as tall as I am. 

I am thinking about putting a bareback pad on Amore and just leading a kid on her while letting the other one ride Halla near me. Maybe I could put Halla on a lunge line and that way I could stop her if she decided to take off. I expect her to be mellow if I walk Amore along with her, in the grassy fields. It seems safe to have the kids on Amore at the walk since she hasn't stumbled lately. But maybe my mom (their grandma) will think differently.

The vet is coming Wednesday to do dentals on both horses, and I am going to have follow up xrays of Halla's hooves. It makes me nervous. What if there has been no progress with the sole growth/rotation, or things look worse? But it's better to know, and I don't see how things could not be better, because she is sound and I've seen improvement in the past month in how she goes over rocks.


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## egrogan

Do the kids still like being around the horses on the ground? You could do bathing/grooming, braid manes and tails, even do some finger painting on the horse. That can take up a good bit of time :wink: And the the riding is sort of a "reward" for treating the horses well. Also, for some reason I've found that kids that age just _love_ getting evening feed ready- especially if it involves stuffing haynets!

Good luck with the vet visit and let us know how the x-rays go.


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## horseluvr2524

Hey there, haven't checked in for a while. Sorry to hear about the rats :sad:

How's the seaweed working?

I'm always eager to hear if others have had similar results with things I've tried. My farrier contacted me asking about the butter-for-arthritis thing. I gave her all the info, as she was asking for one of her clients, who decided to try it. I'll know by the next trim how that went.

We finally got a real monsoon here, so I'm hoping I can start riding again and pick my journal back up. It's just been too hot to bother riding the past couple months, lol.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> How's the seaweed working?


As far as I can tell, it is working well. The horses are shiny and thriving. 

FYI, I started a thread elsewhere about both my horses breaking out in hives after using Bronco Gold fly spray. I mentioned it to my vet today, and she said she knew of six other horses that had a bad reaction to it. A couple had to have steroids to get over the reaction. 

About the vet visit...my horses have both now officially entered the Golden Years at 21 and 26.

The good news is that the hoof x-rays looked as good as I could have hoped for. I'll post pictures after the vet emails them to me. Halla has more sole depth, the bones are aligned, and good progress toward a tighter hoof wall connection. It may take another entire hoof growing out for tight connection, but with a rotation that is to be expected. The vet actually said that I should make money doing post founder trims, because she said I did a better job than most of the farriers. It just makes me feel very relieved, and also grateful that I spent so much time studying hooves when my horses' hooves were "good" which gave me the knowledge I needed when the crisis came. Also the diet is working well.

So...the bad news. I asked the vet how I would know if Halla's knees were bothering her or getting arthritic (if you recall, she has knobby/scarred knees from a severe fall injury a few years ago). She had always advised me that I should watch for arthritis in the future due to the trauma. So she did a flexion test, and Halla trotted off lame. We did x-rays, and the knee that has the knobbiest appearance has tendon calcification and some serious arthritic problems. She is going to come back and give a steroid injection, but this is not the type of arthritis that you exercise through and the horse feels better, but rather it is from trauma and degenerative as the calcification continues to worsen. So she said Halla should be retired to light riding. 

The vet also said joint supplements wouldn't help this since it's not really a cartilage/aging issue, and recommended the joint injection at the site rather than a daily pain med. The good news is that Halla still apparently feels and moves pretty good, so for now giving an injection might make her feel quite well.

One more bad news item, not to be a downer but as a cautionary tale. I asked my friend how her new 17.2 hand horse is settling in to his new barn. Unfortunately, the barn owner turned him out with some geldings straightaway and he got attacked - so defended himself. But being so large, his kick broke the other horse's shoulder and that horse had to be put down. Sad, and possibly avoidable. A reminder to do gradual introductions with new horses. Now Indy is turned out alone, but hopefully they will introduce him to a more compatible horse soon.

Back to my horses, I am rather an optimist so I feel better about knowing my horse's issues than I feel sad about losing my ability to gallop Halla down the beach. My thought is that knowing this now might have saved both of us from a bad accident, since a horse compromised like this might not recover from a stumble in the sand at a fast pace, or go down hard. Also I want to do what is best for the horses, and to give them payback for all they've given me. What I've learned from riding these horses has been priceless, and will be invaluable to me for the rest of my riding years, which hopefully will be many. So we'll enjoy these golden years together and I'll be grateful for the good years I've had. Especially I realize that it was amazing Halla recovered enough from her initial severe knee injuries to gallop around with me for four more years before having to slow down. Having that second chance with her (and third, and fourth), I feel very blessed and have no reason to complain.


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## bsms

Beautifully written and deeply felt! I worry about Bandit's legs, but he now has pretty light use after a few years of what I strongly suspect was...well, not what should have happened to a young horse. IMHO. I'm content to do a lot of walking and he seems to be too, although that may be because his companions are pushing 20 and themselves not exactly racehorses!


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## horseluvr2524

Would it be too repetitive/annoying of me to mention butter again? :lol:

Seriously, at some point I am going to get x-rays done of Shan's hocks, because I am very curious about the condition she's in. She looks and feels great, is never lame anymore, and actually enjoys jumping (only tried little things with her of course) whereas all the previous years I've had her it was a battle to get her over a jump.

If you don't want to mess with the butter mess, I've heard/seen great things about Cetyl-M. It's expensive, and IMO butter does the same thing, but there is nothing wrong with being safe rather than sorry when it comes to a horse's digestion. One lady I knew said her horse used to have to have injections, until she started him on Cetyl-M, and apparently he hasn't needed one since.


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## Hondo

Does light riding include trotting? And could this result in Amore getting out and about a little more often?


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## egrogan

I am very happy to hear the good news on the hoof x-rays. And of course have a lot of empathy on the arthritis and the light riding. I have every confidence you will find new ways to enjoy your time with Halla, all while being mindful of how much her body can handle.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Does light riding include trotting? And could this result in Amore getting out and about a little more often?


Well, yes to both questions. 
Got both horses out today for a lovely light ride. Then they both galloped home. I trotted home a little more slowly, since I couldn't keep up. I had to scold both of them for not following their vet's instructions to keep things easy and light.

There was a thread on here about how many times people have fallen off horses. Someone responded that they've never "fallen" off, because every time they've either jumped off, been bucked off, thrown themselves off, etc. I thought that was funny. Today I didn't "fall" off either, I leaped off as soon as I could. But that was tricky with Amore spinning around me and getting all the lines tangled. 

Halla is an angel. She really keeps her cool so well even when things go nuts. She's both hot and level-headed. It's odd. Amore is hot but just plain goofy. She might not get to be ponied on the beach anymore. I'll probably just lead her if we go down there. But I think she enjoyed getting out, and she definitely got some exercise.


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## Hondo

Hahaha! Oh my! Maybe you can teach Amore that when ponied she's supposed to be in the back? Didn't look like that would be an easy task.

Horses are smarter than some people think. The entire event may have been a conspiracy between Halla and Amore. "We'll get her on the ground then we can run off and gallop. What does she and the vet know about anyhow."


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## bsms

Ok, I shouldn't have laughed. But...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Gasps for breath!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ok...better now! I think. Snicker.

It looks beautiful and I would SOOOO love to take Bandit out there and let him run. I truly appreciate having 3-400 acres of desert to go play in, with so much up and down that I can't see the houses near me and the horses have to work. But it also would be nice to just let Bandit go for a run. One without rocks under him, and prickly pear and cholla flashing past me!

I'm very risk adverse. I think I need to be to ride around here for years. A single fall could stop my riding for the rest of my life. But if I'm not willing to EVER fall, I need to quit riding. Thinking about it last night, I need to accept more risk for a while to (hopefully) get to where we can ride with less risk in the future.

My wife has tried to talk me into ponying Cowboy or Trooper with me. I showed her the video to help her understand WHY I don't want to!

But yeah...riding would be easier if there was a rewind button, and I could get in a spot and then go back 5, 10 or 15 seconds in time and try a different option! There are times in riding (or in flying jets, too) where you realize there are no truly good options left...and no rewind button! At least the jets I flew in had ejection seats! With parachutes too, since I guess horses come with ejections seats as well. Just ones without parachutes...:rofl:

Shouldn't have laughed, but you obviously were not hurt too bad and the horses got home safely, and I laughed hardest when you were running across the field.

:cheers:​


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## Hondo

Has Amore ever ponied Halla? If not, how would do you think that would go?

The only problem I've had getting tangled up is when I (duh) had the lead rope in the wrong hand when mounting. For the most part both Rimmey and Dragon stay behind on a loose lead. Well, except when Dragon decides to stop and Hondo says let'm go I don't want him following me anyhow.

Hondo appears visibly angry when asked to turn around to go back and pick up Dragon. Never have lost Rimmey but he's way older. Hondo has never taken off when I got off except for the bee incident. Knock on wood.


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## egrogan

I think the vet forget to mention retirement to her at the last visit :wink:


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## knightrider

Wow. Dramatic video. I was so impressed with how casually you opened that gate with the ponied horse pushing forward. You did it with so much agility. I'd be spangling and spinning and changing hands and trying to get the one horse to stay back as I opened the gate and the other horse to go through. Kudos to you!


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## horseluvr2524

Darn arabs! :razz:

Well, my one and only ponying experience almost ended like that as well several times. And they weren't arabs either. The track home for mine isn't so safe, so it was imperative that they didn't get loose! I rode Belle and ponied Shan, who is famous for trying to drag you off on the line, and she doesn't care if she ends up getting a whooping for doing it either. Sometimes she reminds me of a kid deciding whether doing something naughty is worth it... "Hmm... is tearing off back to that field of grass worth the swat I might get later? Oh look, clover! OK, no more work, I'm going there mom see ya!"

I learned from my experience that you ride the more difficult horse, and pony the more obedient one. Which means riding miss belligerent antsy feet (aka Shan) and ponying Belle, who is more than happy to follow a horse. Sometimes I swear on trail rides she sticks her nose in the tail of the horse in front of her and falls asleep walking.
@bsms riding in Oregon with gottatrot on that beach was amazing. You should take a trip there and try it. :wink:

ETA: gottatrot, your journal has gained 120 pages since my visit last year!


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## gottatrot

Glad to give a little amusement, I thought it was quite funny too. I think that is the first video I have of a good mishap, even though over the years my flubs have been many. That gate opening was totally random, which also was funny to me. 
That sand was so deep where I fell back after jumping off Halla, it was one of those times where I didn't even get a tiny scrape and the horses had no scratches either. The only small thing is that the reins I was leading Amore with lost most of the length that buckles on, so she got home with only about a foot left. I'll have to look for the rest of it along the way. 

By the way, I will be clear that this video was not showing how to pony horses safely or well, LOL. I've ponied correctly and there are many things you can do to make it better and safer. First, you ideally ride in a saddle with a horn. That way if the horse being ponied begins to get in front or lag behind, you can do a wrap around the horn with the line and either snub the horse's head in close or else use the leverage to get the lagging horse to come forward and keep up. Just having your arm and hand holding a line doesn't give you any real strength.

You should not let the horse being led get in front of your torso, and my opinion is that the bigger, more solidly trained horse should be the one ridden. If you have the right pony horse, you can take a young, spooky horse out and let them fiddle around while the strong leader type does their own thing solidly and takes any pushing or jumping around until the greener one calms down. This is how they pony at the racetrack. I often use unbuckled reins instead of an entire lunge line, because I'd rather not have so much length to deal with. 

It can work better for me to ride Amore and pony Halla, but Amore is not strong enough to be ridden on the beach anymore (she seems to need more solid ground), and also I wouldn't actually have wanted to be on her when she was spurting around like that and trying to keep Halla with us. I guess I'd rather be on the one that I have the chance to stop for a second so I can hop off, rather than on the one that is twirling. The vet mentioned that Amore's trip she had last year and the way she isn't strong with her hind legs/back with a rider anymore is probably spinal ataxia. 
@horseluvr2524, oops, guess I like to talk about horses too much! My journal is growing fast.


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## horseluvr2524

Yup, I've never ponied in a western saddle but I imagine that it is considerably easier. Then I would flip flop my previous statement, and ride the obedient horse and pony the difficult one.

For English saddles though, I'd rather ride the one that is more difficult and pony the one that is less likely to spin around and cause trouble! In my situation, Shan is better behaved under saddle anyway, so it's better to ride her and pony Belle.


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## Hondo

I use, what's it called, a night latch, bucking strap, or...anyhow a short loop of rope tied through my endurance pommel, and now my Trooper pommel. I then run the lead through the small loop for extra leverage. With Dragon I went to going around twice. I can still release it easily even with two turns. So far I've only ponied within the ranch perimeter so no worry about losing a horse. No worry with Dragon anyhow as he wants to stay with Hondo and me also. He just likes to stop when he get's scared. Otherwise he can be a pain because he gets bored and either starts chewing on the lead rope or tucking his nose under it and then flipping it up in the air. I don't mind, he could do a lot worse. My dog Meka does the same if leashed too long. "Hey, wanna play tug of war?"


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## gottatrot

I'm beginning to think that ponying is the easiest way to get a loose horse!


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## Hondo

Today I ponied Dragon without a lead or halter.

Horses opened a gate and all four got out. At 7:30 AM I planned on spending the entire day looking for and retrieving horses. Grabbed one halter and hopped on my scooter to start looking. About 1/4 mile from the gate I found Hondo and Dragon grazing together with no other horses in sight. That seemed and still seems strange. Haltered Hondo and Dragon followed along.

I have really been wishing for Hondo and Dragon to become buddies and it does seem to be slowly happening. I've even caught them doing mutual grooming. Hondo was like, "Go away kid, you bother me." But now it seems like he's thinking, "Well, maybe the kids okay."

So anyhow I was back by 8:30 AM and will wait for the herd to show up adjacent to the field and bring in Rimmey and Star. Dragon is the horse I really want. Star and Rimmey are just projects for turning them into happier horses.

It's been awhile since I ponied Dragon and am hoping for it to go a little better. At first it was difficult to get Dragon close enough to Hondo for ponying because of Hondo being so grouchy with the "Kid".

I lived 1/4 mile from the beach for years. Been a long time since I've smelled that salt air.


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## horseluvr2524

If I moved next to the ocean, I would never be able to leave. Ever. lol!
Arizona is growing on me. I am doing my best to appreciate its MANY good qualities and diverse landscapes (it's mostly the desert I struggle with). The one thing I won't find here though is the ocean, and boy does that suck lol.

Yet another loose horse! I wonder if a halter would have come off so easily. Bridles aren't exactly designed specifically to stop a horse from pulling back out of them.


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## gottatrot

The vet emailed my x-ray images from Halla's vet visit.

Here are the hooves:

The hooves go from left to right with the right being the most recent.
The first xray was a few days after the first lame step, the second xray was after a month, and that was where we saw the coffin bone had rotated a bit more after the initial problem, but we had a little more sole grown in and it appeared that the toes were back better.

The third xrays are now about six months after the initial problem. If you look at the angle of the front of the coffin bone versus the hoof wall, you will see that they are becoming more aligned. Also if you look at the middle hoof bone (P2), you can see the rotation is improving. There is more sole depth too, especially I am pleased with the right front. The dark horizontal line on the latest images is where the rotation occurred, so you can see how much hoof has grown down in six months. 

As you can see, it's very tricky because you have to keep everything angled right as the hoof grows down, in order to get some connection back and this slow growth process is what realigns the bones. It will probably take another hoof capsule growing down all the way to get everything back in the best alignment, I imagine.










I think the most important thing is to stop what caused the laminitis in the first place as quickly as possible, bring the toes back using hoof mapping and x-rays to guide the trimming, and keep some extra heel for the first couple months to help keep the toe wall steeper. Also I think the hoof boot protection while the sole was thin was important. (The little speck on the tip of the left coffin bone is dirt on the outside of the hoof, not remodeling).

Now for some ugly xrays, here is Halla's knee tendon calcification.









Obviously this is something that has been developing over some time, so you can tell what a game horse I have since she was galloping around with this for miles over the past couple years, still ready to go out and get moving. This type of thing cements in my mind that we have to keep searching and giving the horse the benefit of the doubt when behavioral issues crop up. How many "bad" horses have these hidden pain sources that we don't know about? I just don't buy it when people say they know the horse is not having pain because the vet looked at the horse. If we make things positive for the horse, behavioral issues should go away. Persistent issues are warning signs. But we still have to be vigilant even with the best behaved horses, because so many of them will just keep working through pain.


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## gottatrot

Hopefully no one will mind my musings, but this seems like the best place to think out loud.
My thoughts are generated from this thread:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/kodak-spooked-again-i-have-concussion-769473/

Acadianartist finds herself with a horse that doesn't match well with what she wants from a horse, or the kind of riding she does, through no fault of her own. It sounds to me like the right thing to do will be to find a horse that works better for her.

My comments were not taken quite as I meant them; I encouraged her to find another horse but also said that I thought she needed to learn a very secure seat as well. I was not encouraging her personally to ride reactive horses, or to imply she was not able to ride through some spooks on her horse.

But without directing anything toward Acadian or others, I just have some general thoughts on the notion of safe horses.

Yes, it is very important to match horses and riders properly, and many people who ride mellow horses will never have an accident or injury. That's great. But I think that everyone who gets on a horse should think quite a bit about safety, safe riding and realize that they should not ride or be around horses if they accept no risk at all. I've been around many people who say "but I can't get hurt." No one wants to get hurt, some people accept more risk than others by doing riskier things, but I feel the need to point out that EVERYONE is at risk around 1,000 lb animals. People seem to get this haze or romantic veil over their eyes and believe that some horses are safe or that if they choose the right horse it will guarantee they will never get hurt. 
I tell everyone that it is not safe, and that they must assume risk if they want to be around horses. There will always be risk.

In my experiences with horses over the years, I have seen that mostly people who ride very mellow and non-reactive horses fall off less and have less of the minor type injuries. What I have not seen is that bad accidents or injuries are avoidable by only riding very mellow and non-reactive horses. 

Some examples: Right now a woman I know who carefully chose her horse after discarding a couple others for being too reactive and bought a bomb proof horse (then also sent the horse to a good trainer for awhile), is healing a broken hip from a fall off her horse. She was attacked by a couple of aggressive dogs on the beach. My friend who rides a more reactive horse was able to stay on and gallop safely away from the dogs.

Another friend broke her back when she was on one of the most bomb proof horses I've ever been around. He bucked and it was the one and only time I ever know of him bucking. 
Another friend who lectured me about choosing your horse for safety, and that horses need to always be calm, and that she would never ride a horse that didn't have "sane" bloodlines, tons of training, and was bomb proof - broke two neck vertebrae when her safe horse fell down trotting around an arena. 

I have over and over again seen people who buy a horse or two, reject them because they fall off and the horses spook or they don't feel safe, and then finally find a horse they believe is safe and bomb proof. Then that horse gets stung by a bee and bolts (one friend of mine), gets pushed beyond their mental boundaries one day, or finally meets their "nemesis," the one thing they had never seen before such as a red umbrella that made them believe they were going to die. 

My point in all this: by all means get the horse that meets your personality type and that you feel comfortable with. But never believe that you are safe around horses because you chose the "right" one. Don't let people ride your horses that say they will not accept that this is a risky activity, and also I personally tell people that their own "safe" horse is as likely to give them a serious injury as my reactive horse is to give me one. Car accidents happen in any car, no matter how safe. But we wear seat belts because we know that every accident can't be prevented, and that statistics show we will be in an accident at some point in our lives. This is why I advocate for people learning a secure seat, even if they only ride mellow horses and feel safe with their horse. It's one thing we can control with our risky, 1,000 lb beasts. 

My most serious injuries from horses were not related to reactive or spooky horses getting out of control or bucking me off. Galloping around, jumping, spooking at things, bolting off, even bucking have resulted in very minor injuries and body soreness for me so far. The ones that have given me scars and broken bones were accidents that happened not because of the horse's nature, but because of an unforseen series of events that happened just "wrong" and led to the accident. 

A mellow (2/10 personality) horse ran into a tree when the trail ran out, felt trapped by the bushes surrounding and kicked back, hitting me in the leg. A horse threw her head up just as I was leaning down, hitting me in the nose. A horse was thrown out into a field with no feed, was hungry, I brought treats for my horse but wouldn't let her close, she flung a leg back as she ran and caught me with it, etc.

Just some thoughts...you may or may not agree with them.


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## bsms

I largely agree with you, although I'm the one who wrote about matching horses and riders for safety. Trooper is our "Steady Eddie", but I feel safer on Bandit than Trooper. 

I do ride defensively. I also believe far too many people don't learn HOW to ride out spooks - and yes, any horse can spook. In an Australian saddle, my technique is very much what you posted - and what you posted is pretty close to how VS Littauer and Harry Chamberlin taught riding. In a western saddle, my approach is closer to what I see in cutting videos and "Old West" riding.



bsms said:


> ...The ex-Safety Officer in me understands that not all accidents are pilot error, and a person can die while riding while doing everything right. But you ARE more likely to die if you do things wrong. And in a safety investigation, I needed to be convinced the pilot did nothing wrong. Why? Because MOST plane crashes involve some degree of pilot error.
> 
> "_somehow caused all three horses to spook, all three horses ran out of control, and all three riders fell_"
> 
> ...WHY did their riders all fall off? WHY!...
> 
> ...When people come ride with us, we put them on our most trustworthy horses. But we also try to explain how to ride and how to respond to minimize the chance of injury in a spook. *Assume the spook*. But I've had lessons that emphasized "toes front" without regard for horse and rider build. And read many times that I should NEVER be "behind the horse"...
> 
> ...I think too many instructors, too many books, and too many riders accept falling as an "Act of God". Zeus throws down a lightning bolt and BOOM! You are out of the saddle. ...
> 
> But yeah...I think a lot of riding instructors teach bad riding. Bad in the sense that they teach how to ride a calm horse on level terrain and omit how to ride when things go sour!...


However, and this may just be because of my personality and history here on HF, I see little value in my offering folks ideas on how to ride better. For one thing, I look at most English riding and think "_Let go of their head!_" Heck, this morning I watched a video of George Morris schooling a supposedly hot horse, and I wanted to shout, "_Let go of his head! And no, your rein is NOT controlling his shoulder and you are NOT bending his body around your inner leg, and..._"

I have no business telling George Morris how to ride a horse in competition, but I think I can give better advice on how someone who rides a few hours a week and who took up riding as an adult can handle a nervous horse. George doesn't know what it is like to start riding at 50. I do.

I believe standard dressage training and teaching is contrary to good riding. There are a handful of people who can accept my criticism without taking offense (thanks, @*egrogan* )...but a LOT of people get seriously offended. I'm sure you remember your thread on rounding backs.

So...I'm simply the wrong person on HF to discuss defensive riding.

More to the point, I think many riders refuse to own up to the possible dangers and to how rider error may be the biggest problem (as pilot error remains the largest cause of accidents in the USAF). Again and again, I see riders pulling a Gus Grissom: "It just blew!" [_Note - Gus Grissom may have been telling the truth._] Particularly if they have a trainer who tells them falling off is part of learning, or who has taught them risky riding. Most riders think falls are "accidents", not potentially preventable events.

In terms of western saddles, at least, I think cutting riders have a lot to teach about how to stay one. And I think all riders ought to learn about not trapping a horse. Gasoline burns if it has room to do so. It has to be contained to explode. 

So...I guess I both agree and disagree with you. If the rider doesn't give up, it would be darn tough to fall off Trooper. Same with Cowboy. A rider could suck pretty bad and stay on either of them 99.9% of the time.

Bandit is a tougher ride, but mostly only if you push him too hard. Listen to him and he's pretty easy to stay on.

Mia? Tough when she spins, but she is considered a kid's horse now. But she would have exposed the weakness of a lot of riders' seats!

I always liked Littauer's rules of good equitation - fluid balance and can you give the cues you need - but I've added "*Can you stay on?*" as #1. The American Military Seat was certainly a good way, and folks who rider cutting horses get pretty good at it too. But I spent a lot of years as a beginning rider over 50 who was overhorsed. Switching horses is a very good safety tip when that happens. Particularly if the rider has a trainer and the trainer hasn't helped them learn to stay on.


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## horseluvr2524

Well, I have seen excellent results with dressage exercises personally. Strengthened both mares I ride, made them more flexible, and more responsive/quickened response time. Nala's rider does dressage all over the beach with Nala, and Nala looks gorgeous practicing dressage too.

However, dressage has a lot of ugly facets to it as well. Although it was short lived and is now despised, just look at how rollkur was loved and used in the name of higher marks in competition.

I agree, being able to stay on is a valuable tool (perhaps the most valuable?). I have to thank my mare for that, as between her and no stirrup lunge lessons, I learned how to stick like a burr to the saddle!

Makes me think of those old native american tales I've heard. Apparently, it was a traditional thing for the kids to go out (unsupervised of course), catch a wild horse, hop on and ride it back to town (or for as long as they could). Pretty brave if you ask me, and I wonder what the heck that would have looked like.


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## bsms

Watching some of the relay races like Bandit used to be in...let's just say equitation varied widely. If staying on is my #1, then fluid balance is still my #2.

Dressage...I view it as a chicken or egg first thing - Does one teach the horse collection so it can become more athletic, or do you give the horse exercises that end up with it often being able to collect?

Bandit's agility is improving. He used to fall out of a canter to the left trying to do a 180 in our little arena, and couldn't go right at all. He now can hold a canter going left in half the width of the arena, maybe less, and is starting to keep a canter up going right as well. In fact, he did a counter-canter the other day going right, and held it without problem.

His canter is smoother and his trot has improved. He is using his back better. None of that has anything to do with teaching him dressage, doing flexions with him, using my reins and legs to keep him from falling apart, etc. He just has been doing lots of twisting between cactus, and going up and down hills. And most of our trotting is done with me in two point, even in my western saddle.

I guess I'd argue that an expert rider might well be able to use dressage to help their horse become more athletic, but a "Craigslist rider" like myself can see significant improvement, more reliably, by simply riding the horse thru increasingly challenging terrain and maneuvers.

And of course, there is no good way to answer that. Not in a definitive, scientific sort of way. Just as I cannot prove it is better to calm a horse past scary things than push them past. I believe it. I've seen it work well with the handful of horses I've done it with. But if someone who has had 100 horses says I'm wrong, I can't prove anything. And I certainly cannot prove my views on dressage have any validity at all.

Heck, I cannot even prove certain approaches to riding makes it easier to stay on...but I sure wish SOMEONE would look at it! But the $$$$$ in horse research is in things like racing, rollkur, WP, etc. No money to be had in trying to find out if certain riding positions or principles work better for Craigslist riders...

PS - I do feel free to note, however, that lots of eventers use a forward seat, and lots of cutters use an approach I've tried to imitate, and that neither uses positions often taught in books I've read. I find that significant, but I guess riding instructors do not.


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## gottatrot

@horseluvr2524, Didn't those mothers care about their kids? Sounds like a good way to get badly injured, trying to catch a wild horse.  Maybe they just didn't catch them most of the time.



bsms said:


> However, and this may just be because of my personality and history here on HF, I see little value in my offering folks ideas on how to ride better. For one thing, I look at most English riding and think "_Let go of their head!_" Heck, this morning I watched a video of George Morris schooling a supposedly hot horse, and I wanted to shout, "_Let go of his head! And no, your rein is NOT controlling his shoulder and you are NOT bending his body around your inner leg, and..._"


I think I've seen that video with Morris, and it's terrible. He chokes up on those reins super tight and then tries to push the horse into the bit.

Yes, I know I shouldn't tell people how to ride better, but sometimes I just can't help it. You see, I know that until about age 30 I was only an average rider, and had no particular natural talent for it. Yet I owned a very spooky, very reactive horse in Amore, and yet I felt once I had her I was stuck with her. It was often terrifying to ride her, yet I kept trying because I am a very stubborn person. Also when I went home crying once and said I couldn't do it, my husband asked me incredulously what I was going to do...sell her? He said I couldn't, because she was family. Quite funny since he spends very little time with the horses, but he was attached. 

So I know that if I, with no natural talent and with a horse that was (and still is) off the scale reactive could end up safely riding her and learning to manage her reactivity and spooking and even eventually feeling safe about intermediate people riding her, then maybe some people out there just don't realize that if you work on both the horse and the rider, anything is possible. The horse that terrifies you can become a horse you confidently ride, or even find kind of boring after awhile, as I did Amore. In the last several years where I rode her, Amore went on completely loose reins, and I could have ridden her spooks in my sleep. Of course she's still nutty, but it's not scary anymore, just funny.

But there are many situations where everything doesn't come together like that, as with Mia. And finding a better situation for horse and rider is more ideal sometimes. There are so many variables, such as if you even have the room or terrain to let a horse's energy out.



bsms said:


> More to the point, I think many riders refuse to own up to the possible dangers and to how rider error may be the biggest problem (as pilot error remains the largest cause of accidents in the USAF). Most riders think falls are "accidents", not potentially preventable events.
> 
> In terms of western saddles, at least, I think cutting riders have a lot to teach about how to stay one. And I think all riders ought to learn about not trapping a horse. Gasoline burns if it has room to do so. It has to be contained to explode.


I know that in all my riding lessons, no one taught me how to stay on a horse. 

So I'll digress with my latest story about trapping an explosive horse.

My ride on Nala yesterday had me feeling sometimes insecure. I believe I can learn to ride most horses (won't say all because I haven't met them all), but some horses are very tricky and it takes a few rides to learn them and for them to learn you. I wasn't going to try anything that might cause a potential problem. For example, Nala's rider was on Halla. She is a great rider, and manages Nala better than I do, although it's possible if I rode Nala for a period of time I might end up with a slightly more manageable horse. 

But I know Halla, Nala and the rider. I know the rider prefers to wait for the horse to do something and then correct if necessary. This works well for Nala, because she stays mentally relaxed when she feels she can do what she needs to, i.e. trot off. It also means she weaves around the beach and takes her own path most of the time. 

Unfortunately, if the person riding Halla uses that method, Halla is also happy but likely to go cantering off. Nala's rider offered that I could gallop Nala down the beach. But I know that if I gallop Nala off, Halla is going to get very hot and start jumping around. If her rider doesn't recognize that immediately, Halla is going to take off and get strongly in control. Nala won't be held back if Halla is racing up because she's not used to it (she's allowed to run for awhile and stay in front). So my insecurities revolved around my horse not getting injured/injuring the rider, or even the ponied horse getting loose and racing me on Nala down the beach. 

As it was, I asked if we could switch horses back near the end of the ride because Nala's rider let Halla canter up and pass up several times, and I was worried if I let Nala run off, that Halla would end up going for a long canter or even gallop. I doubted I could slow Nala for a quarter mile, since her rider usually does not and she is bigger and stronger than I am. If she didn't get the knack of slowing Halla down, we might keep racing for longer, and Halla has that bad knee to think about now.

So I consciously did what I know I should not do, and when Halla raced by I held Nala back. The first time when she was frustrated, she leaped up and then planted one foot and spun a fast 360. Once we ended the circle, I let her out a little, we cantered, but it was enough to let Nala's rider get Halla slowed so Nala was fine. 

The second time Halla went by us, I decided to let Nala canter, but I restrained her stride and she was already stretching into gallop so she leaped high, half bucked and I wondered for a second if I had trapped her too much and she was going to begin bucking hard. I let out, reeled in, let out, and she calmed. But it was a real tight rope. So I asked Nala's rider if we could switch back, because we often let the horses move out the last mile, and I wondered how that was going to go if Halla kept passing us.

Nala's rider didn't want to trade, because we had swapped our stirrups out instead of moving them up and down a few holes, and they were very difficult to get back on the saddles. 
So we continued, but thankfully Halla was a little tired and kept to a slower pace so I long trotted Nala and let her stretch way out, which relaxed her. 

When we got to our beach access, we saw that a giant elk herd was blocking the whole area, about 50 elk. There was no way around, so we tried slowly splitting the group by going through a narrow spot. As we came up the rise, an elk that was lying down stood up suddenly right in front of us and both horses spooked sideways about six feet. We passed through the group fairly easily, but once past there was this rushing sound and the whole herd started coming toward us. I felt vulnerable, so hopped off Nala and started saving my arms and yelling at the elk, which confused them so they stopped. Whew.

So no, I'm not a fearless rider at all, and was wanting to feel a bit safer than I did on that ride. Yet I did still enjoy it quite a lot. Nala was fun, has wonderful balance, a beautiful canter and jumped a log for me, which I can't do on Halla. Yet I had to think of the whole situation and try to control all the factors, so that was pretty tough.























​


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## bsms

> The horse that terrifies you can become a horse you confidently ride, or even find kind of boring after awhile, as I did Amore. In the last several years where I rode her, Amore went on completely loose reins, and I could have ridden her spooks in my sleep. Of course she's still nutty, but it's not scary anymore, just funny.


I suspect Bandit will be like that. He'll always have his moments, and I enjoy being able to start doing things I didn't dare try with Mia...but he's going to be a relaxing ride most of the time. At 59 or 60+, I might not find it boring...but at least not scary!

Mia wasn't a good horse to learn to ride on, but she is the sort of horse a rider needs to meet if they are going to become a good horseman. Not because she would spin or spook, but because riding her without compromise meant trouble. In your ride on Nala, you were constantly balancing the horse's personalities and traits so as to be safe riding yet also ride the horse in a way true to that horse - body, mind and soul.

I watched three videos of George Morris yesterday and disliked all three. I suppose a clinic riding other peoples' horses isn't the place for getting inside a horse's head. One of the videos struck me hard because it seemed all about using the aids to control the horse's body. Littauer, in his last book, argued show jumping had become as artificial by the 70s as dressage had become in the 1890s, with '_artificial problems lending themselves to artificial solutions_'. Not a direct quote, but correct in spirit. Someone worried about how to exceed his competitors by teaching a horse to canter backwards (James Fillis) created an artificial problem that needed an artificial solution. A jumping course that requires a rider to walk the course in advance, and count strides to each very challenging jump, is just as artificial - and it creates, Littauer argued, an approach to riding that is ill suited to normal riders riding normal horses. Unsafe, even.

As a subnormal rider, I have no right to criticize how a top dressage, showjumping, barrel racing or reining rider rides - IN THEIR SPORT. But as a subnormal rider riding Craigslist horses, I think I do have the right to say people like me riding horses like mine need a different approach. But I also expect to be shouted down, immediately, by riders who have shown and competed, or be ignored because "_my trainer teaches me to weigh my outside seat bone and support the shoulder with my rein and..._" - and who the heck am I to disagree with a professional instructor?

But I do, because so little of what I read and hear from professionals matches what I see in my horses...

< / rant >


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## horseluvr2524

Nala sounds a bit similar to Shan. Shan can be tricky, as with her it can be very touch and go at times. The same process/theory/formula does not produce the same reliable response from her 100% of the time. For example, allowing her to stop and stare at something she is being spooky or 'looky' about. If you allow her to stop, 60% of the time she decides it is nothing and keeps going. The other 40%, she EXPLODES over nothing from the rider or otherwise. If you don't let her stop... I will admit I've had a higher success rate not letting her stop but 'encouraging' rather than 'pushing' past (pushing with this horse is several good wallops. However I think when most people say push, they mean encourage/prod). It's more of an 80% success and 20% blowup. She does give me a warning sign though. I know her so well, I can just tell when she is going to be trouble and when she is not. Well, most of the time, like 90%. The other 10%... she's become a pretty good liar for a horse.

I feel much the same about your sentiments on showing bsms. When I hear stories from people who were kids and showing in the 60s and further back, I am very saddened that what they got to experience I am no longer able to find. For the most part, there was no 'walking the course' and such things back then, no counting strides either. You just went out, jumped the course, and had fun. It seems like they want to make it impossible for a horse to rate/judge the distance themselves, or at least they profess that it is.

The hard truth is that showing is so complicated now that it intimidates me into not ever trying it. Not without having the ability to dump multiple thousands into training, lessons, show fees, etc. I can't do that at this time, and even if I could in the future, the penny pincher in me would decide that it does not bring me enough happiness to make it worth it.


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## knightrider

One thing about showing in the 60's was the lack of variations in the classes. In the shows that I competed in, the jumps were either 3 feet or 3' 6". There were no baby green or green divisions. It would have been SO much more fun if there had been. We backyard horse kids really had some challenging classes, having to jump so high with no lessons and no training. I also wish we had had walk/trot classes. All classes in those days were canter classes. Those divisions started appearing at horseshows in the 80's and were so nice! By then, I was past those divisions, but I used to let juniors ride my mare in those easier divisions so they could get experience (and give my horse a chance to look over the jumps before they got raised).


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## gottatrot

At shows you just see so many sad horses. Who is having fun?

A couple weeks ago I mentioned that my nieces and nephew were coming to visit. The morning they were supposed to come, my mom fell and broke her arm, so it was postponed (she is their grandma). 

Sunday was the day before they were supposed to come again, and my DH and I were working in the garage late making the rats a cage. We needed a saw from the shed outside, so I went out in the dark, missed a step and rolled over the top of my foot. It made a loud pop and I could tell it wasn't good. I was not willing to concede that I was injured, so in denial ran back up into the garage. Then I had to sit down and broke out in a drenching sweat, and started dry heaving into the garbage can. My DH didn't know what happened, so he asked, "Are you dehydrated?" I told him I'd twisted my foot, but still in denial got up and tried walking around in the garage but when I stepped on my foot I saw spots and almost passed out, so had to lay down on the ground. He took me to the ER, which was embarrassing to hop in since I know everyone and yet it was nice to get VIP privileges so was out in a half hour. X-rays showed nothing broken, just a sprain, but the Dr. wrote for me to be off work until Saturday.

My thought is now that I only hyperextended the ligaments but didn't tear anything, because the soft tissue damage is healing super fast. Monday I was only about Grade II lame, had ditched my walking boot and took the kids around on the horses.
Halla is not quite ready to be a bareback pony ride for kids, but she did her best.
The twins are only 11 but about as tall as I am. Their little brother is 8. I thought all three did a fine job at riding.





My dad watches while one twin picks out Amore's hooves:









Valhalla getting brushed:









All three kids like the horses:









They braided the manes:







The rat house we made out of a $1.50 entertainment center from Goodwill. Cut holes through the different levels of shelves, put linoleum tiling on the floors, added wire mesh, ramps, ladders and doors. 






I put in a door with a window so they can see each other, because they have to be separated for two weeks. I looked at every picture online on how to tell rat boys from girls, and everyone swore that the testicles are very obvious from 3-4 weeks. Except apparently wild rats mature later, so a few days ago I looked at the smaller rat and out popped some testicles! What to do...they are now 6 weeks old. People online said to either let them loose, get another boy and girl and keep both pairs apart (more rats?) or neuter the male. So Nimh, the little boy will get neutered in two weeks. 






My DH and I are the same...we couldn't think about them getting eaten by hawks and such. 95% of wild rats die within the first year. Which is natural, but we KNOW these ones.  Besides, they really like to eat things like banana and strawberries, which I don't think they would get in the wild. It is a dilemma to release rats since they normally don't venture more than 100 feet or so from their original territory. Chances are you'd put them into someone else's territory. 

Ruby, the girl. Both super healthy by now. They have crazy big eyes.







​


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## Hondo

Now THAT'S a rat cage. Mega creative. How did I know those rats would never fear the wild kingdom again?


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## Sandycat

I just had to comment on how amazing that rat cage is! I had rats growing up and they would have loved that. Also love the name Nihm. How did you come up with it? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## horseluvr2524

Halla cracks me up. The second time the older girl was on, she seemed to be saying "OK, I think she's got it. Let's go for a run now!".

That's an awesome rat cage. I wish it would be so easy to make something like that for my parrots. But EVERYTHING is toxic to parrots!


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## phantomhorse13

Sandycat said:


> Also love the name Nihm. How did you come up with it?


I assumed it was a reference to the book/movie "Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH" from a million years ago.. loved that story.


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## Hondo

I recall gottatrot joking when she first got the rats that all her friends were either stomping on them (Amore) or poisoning them while she was trying to set them up in their own apartments. Guess she wasn't joking about the apartments.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> I assumed it was a reference to the book/movie "Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH" from a million years ago.. loved that story.


Exactly. Not sure why Ruby got her name - it just seemed right to say "Ruby rat."

***************************************************************
Tonight I am pondering over how I will figure out what I want in my next horse. It is going to take me quite some time to really figure out what it is I want. It will be a very important life decision for me.

I've noticed that Halla has had a small sore on one hock, and watching her get up with some difficulty after rolling yesterday I understand that her knee is going to bother her more and more in the next several years. So I am thinking about the future realistically to prepare myself, knowing that if she eventually has too much pain getting up and down, or is limping around in the field, I will not make her suffer every day. People say, "but old people live with arthritis and limp around," but I feel differently about animals. In my opinion, just because we can keep animals alive when they are having daily pain, that doesn't mean we should. We have to watch them carefully and see when that zest for life is gone. If daily life becomes a painful chore, I will help them move on to greener pastures. 
In my experiences with other animals, I knew when it was time and never doubted it later. So I'll know with my horses too.

Anyway, assuming that my horses in their 20s may have only a few years left, I want to start thinking seriously about my next horse. In my 40s, this will probably be my last serious athlete that hopefully will take me into my 60s. 

Part of me thinks about getting a very young horse, and doing all the training. What a great horse that would be, and what a bond we would have.

Another part of me considers taking on someone else's problem horse, and helping turn a bad situation into a good one. I'd really like to do that, except I am selfish to a degree, and want a beautiful, well built athlete. Although I want to help horses, this will be my personal horse for years so I want one that I find attractive and that will last and hold up under hard, fast work. So I don't want to take on someone's 14 hand jug-headed QH or Appy (no offense) that is a bucker, but would only want a problem horse that was a good size, good conformation, had great feet and thick, iron-hard legs. Is that so wrong?

Of course, this is tricky since I'm getting more and more solid in my belief that horses with serious issues have physical problems that need to be treated. And those can take so much time and money to investigate, often with the horse coming out the other end much better but still compromised. I've heard of many examples even this past year of horses with Lyme, EPM, PSSM, other muscle myopathies, DSLD, and Cushing's all causing issues. 

I don't envy those such as Egrogan who are horse shopping right now. I enjoy helping other people find horses, but when it is for yourself it is rather a daunting task. It is very serious, and can be a relationship that lasts longer than most of the marriages of people you meet. 

Also, you have to consider all the various factors. Do I want other people to be able to ride the horse? How important is that to me? What is the right size? What is the right age? What is the right temperament? I don't mind spooky and hot...but I imagine if Amore or Halla were a bit steadier, I'd enjoy training them to drive so they could get more exercise without being ridden as they age. Perhaps I could consider it with Halla, but Amore would have a disaster at some point in harness. For sure. 

I think an ideal temperament would be a horse that had a lot of drive to work and some excitement about work, but also could learn to calm down quickly. I've met some Arabs that have this temperament, and it's great. I'll be thinking about this for a long time, I am sure.


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## bsms

Jug head Appy?








​ 
Who are you calling a jug head Appy?!








​ 
:rofl:​ 
Of course, he is also 3/4 Arabian, and it is hard to find a bridle small enough for him...while Bandit IS a jug-head. Tough to find a bridle that fits him because the last hole is barely long enough.

I've been totally irresponsible in getting horses. Lucky, for the most part, but not sensible. Bandit was "sight unseen" and really wasn't anything like what I expected. In truth...a less cautious horse would be good for me at 59. He's much saner than Mia, but I'm pretty sure he will always be more cautious, reactive and require more compromises than most. I have a hard time imagining him as a cart horse, yet driving WOULD be a great approach to being with horses!

Bandit will probably be my last horse. He could remain sound for riding until I'm 75, maybe older. To be honest...if I had known I was getting my "last horse", I might have been pickier. Even at 59. Maybe it would be different if I had a nicer place to ride - if we ever make the move to northern Arizona, or even southern Utah. My wife has this strange idea that we need to be close to the grandkids, but this looks like my idea of great country:








​ 
To be an hour away from riding in places like these:








​ 
My wife with a couple of jug-head Appies...:>)...








​ 
I mean, really...just how important ARE grandkids?!!!! My wife obviously has distorted priorities!

It is a tough balance. How do you predict what sort of life you will want 15-20 years from now? I really have come to appreciate Bandit, but I'd ride him more if he was a little easier to ride. 

After all, it isn't as though I'm still 50! :wink:​


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> In my 40s, this will probably be my last serious athlete that hopefully will take me into my 60s.


What?? You're not planning to quit in your sixties!? Just a less athletic horse?


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## horseluvr2524

Now this is my opinion and what I did, so take it with a grain of salt of course, but I am all for the 'pick a young one and train it yourself'. You get one with the right temperament, and it will feel like a breeze as compared to Halla or Amore. 

I got Shan as a teenager, and boy was she a tough one to train. She gave some experienced horse people that tried to help me a real run for their money! It was a few years of stubborn perseverance and a lot of scrapes and tears, but I came out the other side with a more incredible mare than I could have ever thought to ask for.

I actually think you would really like Shan. This: "a horse that had a lot of drive to work and some excitement about work, but also could learn to calm down quickly." Describes her perfectly. She's not always thrilled about arena work (who is, it's like math) but boy does she love blasting down a trail, and is so responsive when asking for a transition up or down or turning or whatever. Even 'collected' out on the desert trails before.

Make no mistake, I am trying very hard at talking you into coming out for a visit this winter. :lol:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It is a tough balance. How do you predict what sort of life you will want 15-20 years from now? I really have come to appreciate Bandit, but I'd ride him more if he was a little easier to ride.


Exactly! It's such a difficult decision.
@Hondo, I hope to have horses as long as I am healthy, but most probably will want something milder after this next one rather than a super athlete. My dad is 83 and my mom keeps banning him from climbing up ladders onto their roof, so I am hoping with a healthy lifestyle and the longevity genes in our family that I'll also get a gentle horse to take me into my older age. That may be the time for me to try a gaited horse, or a QH or "Jug head" Appy, LOL. 

It is true, every horse can seem beautiful if they are your beloved friend. Beauty really should be the last on the list...yet I notice @egrogan is looking at some very lovely Morgans...:smile:
@horseluvr2524, I'm sure I would like Shan a lot too. Hopefully some time I could come and ride her - that would be so fun. I thought your descriptions of how she was like Nala were very interesting. I am guessing Shan is one that takes a few rides to learn also - to find the right balance of freedom and support.


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## horseluvr2524

Yes, she can be tricky. It's hard to describe though, as it's like she is both easy and difficult! The difference is though that I don't think you could throw a beginner on Nala, who is super sensitive to rider signals. Shan knows when she has a rider with experience, and when she doesn't. Then she reacts accordingly. I can put anyone with decent reflexes up on her (like my husband), but they don't have to really know how to ride, and she will take care of them. At worst, she takes advantage of the grazing opportunities lol! Elderly or children I would only put on her if I was able to lead from the ground. Then she is great with them. If you are a rider with know-how, she will test to see how much you really know and how much she can get away with.

I'll admit, I would be very excited to share both Shan and Belle with you. I am so pleased with them. They were absolute models of good equine behavior on our camping trip and on the trailer. Maybe we haven't figured out the fancy dancy flying changes, smooth laterals, and perfect jumping, but I know for a fact they will cart us around safely and can be trusted with just about anything you will encounter in the city or on the trail.

If you were going for hardy, mustangs are great of course. You'll even find ones that look like Thoroughbreds, or Arabians, or whatever is your fancy (though I haven't seen any that resemble gaited horses). Probably your biggest concern with a mustang would be those easy keeper problems, but you can be nigh guaranteed that horse will last a lifetime of riding.


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## gottatrot

Reading my latest issue of Equus magazine tonight, came across some interesting and thought-provoking information I thought I'd share.

First, a study done in Australia looked into minor injuries that occurred to horses during trailering by their owners. People reported 72% of the injuries as "horse-related factors," but cameras in the back of the vehicles showed that most of these injuries were caused by the horses not being able to cope with the movement of the vehicles. People who reported having less sleep or answering the phone during their drive were twice as likely to have horses with injuries. Most injuries were during transport rather than loading/unloading. And the study showed that horses trailered by their owners were as likely to have injuries as horses transported to slaughter. I thought the conclusion was good, which was that we are often ready to look harshly at horses getting injured during transport to slaughter, but not look closely at how our own practices might be putting our own horses at risk.

The second thing I thought was interesting was a study done to see if horses could recognize themselves in mirrors. They put a colored spot on the horse to see if the horses would take any action to get it off (they did not). They acknowledged that the study was inconclusive, because we don't know if horses are motivated to remove cosmetic changes from their bodies - for example horses leave clods of mud on themselves or hay on their faces and do not seem concerned about wiping it off. It made me wonder; does the horse know he doesn't normally have a colored spot there even if he recognizes that the image is his own? After all, horses don't look in mirrors daily. How _could_ one test to see if a horse recognized himself?

Then there was an article about how horses fed mainly hay are often deficient in Vitamin E, and I wish I'd had access to that information years ago. One study they cited found that alfalfa hay lost as much as 73% of its vitamin E after 12 weeks in storage. Around here, hay is often stored that long before we even bring it to our barn. 

Finally, there was an article about how genetic testing is getting far more advanced, with tests for many genetic diseases and colors. There is now a test for a mutation called "curiosity versus vigilance." The mutation affects dopamine receptors in horses' brains. If a horse has two copies of this recessive gene, they are defined as more curious. Horses with only one or no copies of the gene are more vigilant. 

I've believed for a long time that many horses are born much more wary or "spooky" than others, and that this is not always something that comes from their life experiences or training. Some young horses I've met are so nervous and jumpy, while others are just open and curious. Yet born in the same stable, handled by the same people, etc. I'm guessing there are many differences in the DNA that affect how horses react to things, handle things and respond to training.

It makes me reflect on how I once believed (from what I'd read and been told) that horses were mostly a blank slate and what they became was mostly due to how they were handled and trained. This has been proven wrong to me so many times. To me it means that people must choose their horses very particularly for temperament, instead of spending all their time thinking about size, movement, conformation and color. Just as those factors are inherited by the horse, the way the brain handles input and the horse's chemical reactions to stimulation are also inherited and may not be something that can be changed very much with training or good handling.


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## Hondo

RE: After all, horses don't look in mirrors daily. How could one test to see if a horse recognized himself?

Comment: I remember reading a similar experiment with monkeys or apes. Not sure where but probably from a psychology course. The monkey would reach up and touch the spot.

Found this on Google. 10 Animals with Self-Awareness 

and this, What Do Animals See in a Mirror? - Issue 13: Symmetry - Nautilus

My Google search was based on "monkey reaches for red spot with mirror"


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## bsms

A Border Collie breeder told me once she liked to breed for a dog who would go well past the sheep before turning to work them versus on who wanted to get in with them immediately. Another bred them for cattle work, which required more aggression. An Australian Shepherd breeder, back in the 70s & before the AKC largely ruined the breed, also told me he bred his dogs for cattle work and that they would be marginal on sheep because of it - again due to the degree of aggression needed. It is also obvious that a few generations of breeding without any regard of herding ability quickly destroys that aspect.

If the way a herding dog works sheep or cattle can be inherited, why shouldn't things like anger, aggression, calmness, etc?

Bandit is calmer - less reactive - than before, but it is common to see him stand on full alert in the corral, looking and smelling and listening intently, for 30-60 minutes, sometimes more. Meanwhile, the other two will eat his food. Why would I expect to be able to train that out of him? 

I can enlarge the set of things that he understands and accepts. I can (and have) taught him to start off with a lower level of internal tenseness. I think I have convinced him that my assessment of the threat is worth considering. Maybe even trusting, sometimes. But he is also smart enough to have noticed that his sense of smell and hearing is superior to mine. If he smells something suspicious, and he values my opinion, then isn't making me aware of the his concern the smart thing to do?

And if I took the approach often taught, and refused to let him look and tried to force him to stop thinking about a potential threat...wouldn't that be the ultimate "unreasonable act" to a cautious horse? 

And if Bandit is in fact *GENETICALLY* cautious, then Bandit's rider may not want to hang it out, basing his balance on the assumption Bandit will never do anything or go anywhere unless the rider first directs him!


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## knightrider

From GottaTrot: 
"It makes me reflect on how I once believed (from what I'd read and been told) that horses were mostly a blank slate and what they became was mostly due to how they were handled and trained. This has been proven wrong to me so many times."

I find this to be so true! I get really annoyed with people who place such a huge premium on ground manners. Since I usually raise my riding horses from babies, I've seen such a huge continuum of ground manners in my colts. Some have lovely impeccable manners; several have been pretty awful. I train the babies pretty much the same, and yet some are pushy and difficult. I drew the conclusion that GottaTrot states on my own about 30 years ago. They are who they are and you work with what you've got. I used to grind my teeth and shut my mouth when some busybody would comment on my appie's terrible ground manners. "You need to teach that horse some manners!" I never stopped trying to teach her some manners, but it never worked. My next appie had beautiful ground manners all her life. 

By the way, my kids are adopted, and it was stressed to us in every single adoption class that we won't get the kids we've dreamed of. We'll get the kids we get. They are who they are, and our job is to help them become the best they can be. Horses are no different.


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## horseluvr2524

Agree with all said. Just wondering which side Shan stands on: vigilant or curious? Because she is extremely curious and 'up in your business', but also has a tendency to be vigilant and stand watch, smelling the air, or regard that 1 in a thousand thing with extreme caution (and no amount of effort will convince her otherwise as to not be wary).


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## updownrider

> The second thing I thought was interesting was a study done to see if horses could recognize themselves in mirrors. They put a colored spot on the horse to see if the horses would take any action to get it off (they did not). They acknowledged that the study was inconclusive, because we don't know if horses are motivated to remove cosmetic changes from their bodies - for example horses leave clods of mud on themselves or hay on their faces and do not seem concerned about wiping it off. It made me wonder; does the horse know he doesn't normally have a colored spot there even if he recognizes that the image is his own? After all, horses don't look in mirrors daily. How could one test to see if a horse recognized himself?


Interesting study. I live in the land of winter Dressage and just about every farm has large mirrors in their arena. Some horses stop and admire the horse in the mirror every day, some spook the first time (or everytime) they see a horse in the mirror, some never notice the horse in the mirror, and I have heard about but never seen, a horse getting aggressive towards the horse in the mirror.


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## gottatrot

I know my horses often don't recognize immediately that their shadow is connected to themselves. We'll come over a rise with the sun behind us and the shadow will start moving in front of us and they'll take a serious look at it and sometimes jump a little. But then it seems like they do realize it is related to them, because once they notice it is moving with them they stop reacting to it.


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## knightrider

Since I know you read Equus magazine, I am interested in your opinion about two of the articles in the September issue. The first one is about foals that died from a vitamin E deficiency. Wasn't that the deficiency that you dealt with? Are you familiar with this equine neuroaxonal dystrophy/equine degenerative myeloencephalophy? I would love to learn your thoughts about this condition.

Also I was very interested in the article called "The Limits of Negative Reinforcement" and wondered what your thoughts on that article were. Also, everyone else who has chimed in on your thread about training techniques; I'd like to learn what everyone else thinks too. I can't wait for next month, when the author writes about how "a horse's brain learns by reward, then apply that knowledge to everyday horse handling." I was excited about the last article written by Janet L. Jones, and I liked this one a whole lot also. Are you familiar with Janet L. Jones and her brain research?


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## Hondo

Befor clicking on this thread I had just finished reading Study: Stress Impairs Horses' Learning Abilities | TheHorse.com 

The indication is that negative reinforcement (removal of pressure not punishment) seems to work better for the fearful horse providing there are no other stressors. At least that's what I seemed to understand.

I just recieved my first copy of Equus the other day and now need to go read the article mentioned.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> Since I know you read Equus magazine, I am interested in your opinion about two of the articles in the September issue. The first one is about foals that died from a vitamin E deficiency. Wasn't that the deficiency that you dealt with? Are you familiar with this equine neuroaxonal dystrophy/equine degenerative myeloencephalophy? I would love to learn your thoughts about this condition.
> 
> Also I was very interested in the article called "The Limits of Negative Reinforcement" and wondered what your thoughts on that article were. Also, everyone else who has chimed in on your thread about training techniques; I'd like to learn what everyone else thinks too. I can't wait for next month, when the author writes about how "a horse's brain learns by reward, then apply that knowledge to everyday horse handling." I was excited about the last article written by Janet L. Jones, and I liked this one a whole lot also. Are you familiar with Janet L. Jones and her brain research?


I'm not familiar with Janet L. Jones but I found both of those articles very interesting.

The vitamin E...I'm so glad that this information is finally getting out to a wider audience. I think anyone with neurological type issues should look into this first, since it is so simple: a dietary deficiency. Very sad how several foals were affected and died before they discovered the problem was vitamin E. I'd never heard any emphasis on giving E, so had no clue about it until I was desperately reading everything I could to find out was wrong with my mare. 

Apparently there is a difference between horses getting vitamin E deficiency as an adult versus when developing. In foals it causes nutritional myodegeneration, neuroaxonal dystrophy, degenerative myeloencephalopathy. Adult horses develop vitamin E deficient myopathy or equine motor neuron disease. At some point, I believe the damage is irreversible. I imagine my mare has some damage to her muscles, but is able to compensate to where it is not noticeable. If she'd gone on much longer, I am guessing it would have been too late.

As always, I wonder how many horses out there with "behavioral problems" have vitamin E deficiency. The earliest signs in my mare were behavioral type symptoms, but I believe that a horse doesn't just change their nature overnight. Why would a horse that was willing and game to go and loved to canter for several years begin bucking forward into the canter? I looked for so many causes: the girth, a bee sting, etc. I wondered if I was feeding too much energy or too many carbs. Yet in the end, after a few months progression I was able to discover that she was probably bucking because she felt less strong in the hind end which made her insecure about her footing, so was lurching forward. I've seen many horses that will buck when the footing is insecure or shifty. This was only obvious in hindsight, when she progressed to standing with her hind legs pulled forward for support, stopped laying down to roll (an always dirty horse is suddenly always clean?), stopped cantering and began falling.

It will be interesting to learn what the research shows us in the future. Was my mare born with a genetic inability to utilize vitamin E or store it? Or did muscle damage from being starved for many months damage the muscles' ability to store vitamin E? Obviously many horses have deficiency without showing obvious symptoms, but I believe those horses should be supplemented too because we don't know if their muscles would be stronger and their neuromuscular functions work better and they just don't show outward signs. I throw vitamins in Amore's feed and don't worry about it - if she gets most of it most of the time I know she will get enough and be fine. For Halla it is vitally important so I syringe it into her mouth every day. She has rapid and visible muscle deterioration within a few days if she doesn't get the E. 

For those who haven't read the Equus article on Negative Reinforcement, here are some quotes I thought were good:


> ...riders sometimes mistake "pressure" for "punishment." The pressure of negative reinforcement might have to be annoying or displacing at first, but it must never be painful or damaging. Punishment, as an educational tool, can cause severe problems and must be used only by highly qualified trainers in the rare event of egregious equine behavior.





> Negative reinforcement is the most common form of associative horse training, but it requires superb coordination, timing and equitation. It teaches a horse to respond like a good soldier, but it rarely motivates the horse to want to please through excellent performance or to build a bond of trust with his handler. For that, we train by reward.


The article points out that negative reinforcement works best in the early parts of horse training, when we are teaching a horse things like a pull on the bit means to slow down, or that pressure from our leg means to move over. That matches my experiences.


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## gottatrot

Apparently I am wrong about the vitamin E being stored in the muscles. It is mainly stored in the fat. So horses that have less fat and more muscle may use more and store less.


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## bsms

How do you supplement your horses' vitamin E and by how much?


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> How do you supplement your horses' vitamin E and by how much?


I give Amore pellets from Smartpak that are 2,500 IU since she cleans up everything I give her in a little beet pulp. Halla leaves food behind, so I give her a dose of Elevate powder from Kentucky Equine in a syringe which is 1,500 IU. But Halla also gets E in a multivitamin and some other pellets I give her so that is just insurance she will get a dose for sure. She gets around 3,000 IU. Either route costs me about $1/day per horse. This is the main reason (I believe) why E is in miniscule amounts in most horse feeds. It's expensive.

There are a lot of claims about certain oils or natural feeds being high in E...some are comparatively high if you look at similar oils, etc., but if you do the math the amounts are small. For example, I think one oil I looked at you would have to feed a half gallon a day to provide 1,000 IU of E. 

Others in my barn that don't have picky horses and no signs of serious deficiency feed human capsules. You can buy natural E online or at big box stores a lot cheaper. For example, you could give three of these capsules for thirty cents daily. Most horses will just eat the capsules in a handful of pellets. 
If you feed synthetic, horses apparently only absorb half so you have to feed double.
https://www.amazon.com/Bronson-Natural-Vitamin-Tocopherol-Softgels/dp/B0006ZRVXS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503273190&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=natural%2Bvitamin%2Be&th=1
The minimum recommended amount is what they know a horse must receive to avoid serious problems, and I believe it's around 800-1,000 IU daily. Since the requirements go up with exercise, illness, etc., I feel safer feeding at least 2,000 IU. If a horse has problems, they recommend around 5,000 IU until the issues resolve. At 10,000 IU or above, horses start having issues absorbing other vitamins (can't remember which...B or A I think). Any horse on green pasture or freshly cut green hay will need less.


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## horseluvr2524

@bsms

I just pick up the Vitamin E gel pills for people from Sams or Costco. Very cheap, lasts a long time (I think it was like $8 for the bottle, and it lasts well over two months for two horses). I started out doing 1600IU per day for each horse, and then went down to 800IU. I put them on it because I noticed Belle's hindquarters were rather sunk in, and despite exercise and feed, they would not fill out. Now, she looks great (aside from some muscle wastage due to the lack of exercise from not working in this heat).

I just cut a little hole in one end of each pill using a steak knife, and then squeeze out the contents over a handful of oats and drop the pill casing in as well. They eat it all up, along with their other supplements. Supplements, even this cheap version of Vit E, are best fed separate so the horses get the correct dosage.


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## gottatrot

I don't usually think a lot of things are conspiracies, but it does seem rather shady to me how the horse feed companies are about vitamin E. Obviously they know how much horses need of the various vitamins and minerals, yet they will advertise that a multivitamin or ration balancer is "complete" even when it has high amounts of multiple vitamins and minerals but only perhaps 100 IU of Vitamin E per serving.

When I've looked up the recommended amounts for many vitamins horses need, the multivitamins and ration balancers will have adequate amounts for most except E. Many of the vitamins are also even produced by the horse, such as Vitamin C and B vitamins. But the labels will be very vague about the amounts of vitamins, or will even falsely advertise that the product is a "good source" of vitamin E. Once I learned that parts per million was the same as milligrams per kilogram, it was easy to see that most products have only scant amounts of E. This has to be solely due to the fact that natural E is expensive. Honest labeling would let people know that the product has adequate amounts of most vitamins when fed at the recommended amounts, but additional supplementation of E is recommended.

I remember when first learning about Vitamin E deficiency and thinking that it couldn't be the problem due to the amount of complete feed I fed. Then after doing the math, realizing that I'd need to feed 20 lbs of pellets to get enough E!
An example: Nutrena Empower Balance is a ration balancer. You should supposedly need to only feed one pound daily to balance "either a grass or hay diet." Which means less extra feed for a metabolic horse or easy keeper, and less expense. So that's fine, if your horse is on pasture. But if your horse is on dried hay, you will note that in one pound there is only 600 IU of E, which doesn't sound so bad except it's synthetic E so the horse only absorbs 300 IU. How many easy keeper/metabolic types are NOT on fresh, green pasture? 
Anyway, that's my little gripe about the false advertising and about how we get the impression our horses should not have any deficiencies when in reality they may be heading toward muscle wasting and neurological disaster.

FYI, the horses in my barn that get the E capsules just get them thrown into their handful of pellets and they still eat them whole, no mess, no fuss.


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## gottatrot

Yesterday I was able to drive a couple hours down the coast to ride with my best riding buddies. We had a wonderful ride through the mountain trails. Supposedly, I was going to ride Acorn, a pony-sized QH near Amore's size. She belongs to one of their boarders. However, the pony's owner showed up at ride time and said she knew she was supposed to loan away her pony, but...

Obviously she was longing to ride too on this beautiful afternoon. As all horse people should have been. 

Well, it was decided that Booker, although in his late 20s was feeling well and spry today, so he could go out. So we had enough horses for my three friends, both their boarders, and myself. 

I went out on Sage, the Canadian Warmblood. He is what I describe as "half a handful." My video of the ride is a bit long, but if you watch it you might think Sage is a whole handful. He does rear a bit and plunge a bit. I've only been on a few horses that are a whole handful...including Halla on a bad day and Nala as well. 

Cassie, the leader of the group is a handful. If you want to see some good riding, watch her rider. No matter what that horse does, she is right there with her. And Cassie is doing something every second of every ride. It took quite a long time to train her to stand still for a few moments. 

The friend who you rarely see in the video because she is lagging back on the Thoroughbred, Cue, found she wasn't enjoying riding as much after she and I went horse shopping a few years back and found Cassie. We thought we were buying a horse that would be more of a "half handful," especially knowing the typical Connemara or Standardbred (she is a cross of the two) are often steady and reliable. 
Everything worked out well when she gave Cassie to her mom. Currently she has Cue, who is one of those common TBs that is too excitable for an inexperienced rider but still a lot less horse than Cassie. 

It's not that Cue's rider can't handle Cassie, but it wasn't enjoyable for her to never be able to relax on a ride. Cassie's current rider relaxes through it all, as you can see.

The ride had some funny moments, and was loads of fun. We had Acorn's rider who must be barely a teen, and the rest of us ranged from 20s, 30s, 40s to over 50. Yet it was universally enjoyable. My friends are experts at communicating on rides with groups of horses and riders. Which made a ride that might have been tense or edging toward unsafe quite easy and relaxed. 

There is a steep, narrow run up a hill that the horses have to gallop in order to make it to the top. They have to wait their turn, and it was important to decide the order. Cassie had to go first, or risk explosion. But her rider took the pony directly behind, so the youngest person did not have to try to hold back the pony if she got excited.

Bentley, a gaming type QH needed to go next, and you might spot her leaping in place and acting like a barrel horse in the chute as she waits her turn. Then I took Sage, who handled it fine but was very anxious to go. Booker can be a half handful as well, but his rider has partnered him for many years and he has no trick she doesn't know. Finally, Cue, which is slightly funny but the TB had to go last.

Wish I could ride like that every day!!


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## gottatrot

A couple of add ons to the last post:

I rode in a Big Horn endurance saddle and it put me in a good position. The wide fenders are just a little too inflexible for my taste even though made of fabric, and the seat was a bit hard. But it wasn't difficult to ride in or get off the seat when necessary.

Also, I was going to explain what makes Sage a "half handful" versus some of the horses I consider a handful. Even when he hops around and rears a little, you can feel in his body that he is not getting super frustrated. His mental energy goes up and down in smooth waves, rather than building and building. He wanted to catch up to Cassie, and wanted to rush forward. But he doesn't try to break into a canter without being asked, for example, and he comes out of a faster gait when asked without much insisting. He has frequent periods of calmness between any excitement. So compared to some horses he doesn't feel explosive and it feels quite easy to manage his energy, even when he doesn't want to cooperate entirely.

The most difficult horses (for me) are those that get explosive about being contained and that need hair trigger pressure release to keep them from losing their cool.


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## Hondo

How old is Amore? I'm thinking 28 or so but I don't know why I think that.

The horse that speeds up when going under low limbs. Hondo tends to do that. I had thought that the confinement of tight spaces might make him nervous about getting back in the open. But last night I watched a video about riding bareback. The person making the video claims that leaning forward is a natural cue to go faster since that can put a person forward of the proper balance point and the horse tries to get out from under that pressure by speeding up.

I have no clue if that is correct or not, but I'll be thinking about it the next time I travel through some thick brush.

I'm using my trooper make over saddle now with the English hammock type seat support but rigid bars custom fit to Hondo. The seat really feels nice and secure and mega comfy although I've not done a long ride on it. Mounting from the ground with a loose cinch is no longer a problem. I'm happy and Hondo seems to be.

Was that the hill your friends took you on way back when they first invited you to ride with Amore? Where you were supposed to yell clear at the top so the next rider could start up? Sounds like a bunch of mad dirtbikers! 

I've had a couple of really nice email exchanges from the author of The Limits of Negative Reinforcement in Equus. So nice to have a conversation about a really touchy and potentially explosive subject and be able to remain casually exactly on topic and in a very constructive way.

Like that riding in the brush and trees. That's what I live for. I'm hoping to get Hondo up in the Pines in the near future.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> How old is Amore? I'm thinking 28 or so but I don't know why I think that.


She is 26. In a way, a bit older than the number because of her back arthritis and Cushing's. But she sure looks healthy and shiny right now, so I am hoping she has a few years left.

We only left one horse back at my friends' barn when we went for our ride. He's only about 16 but they are planning to put him down in a couple weeks after spoiling him a little. He fell with a rider recently, so they brought him to the vets at OSU. Turns out he has wobblers with spinal cord compression from spinal degeneration. He appears normal when you look at him, but if he turns wrong his legs don't work and he falls. They will let him go peacefully before he ends up with any fractures or paralysis.

They've had several rough years, having to put down 5 horses. One was well over 30 and broke her leg just moving wrong. Two had Cushing's complicated by bad management before my friends got them, and their hooves deteriorated in their late 20s. Then there was Rue, my friend bought him as her primary riding horse and he never seemed happy about going out - they discovered he had a hock with bone degeneration so he was in pain all the time. Now Rowan, the horse they bought to replace Rue. My friend says next she plans to get a young horse with no history of being used. 



Hondo said:


> The horse that speeds up when going under low limbs. Hondo tends to do that. I had thought that the confinement of tight spaces might make him nervous about getting back in the open. But last night I watched a video about riding bareback. The person making the video claims that leaning forward is a natural cue to go faster since that can put a person forward of the proper balance point and the horse tries to get out from under that pressure by speeding up.


For Halla, I think it's a taught cue because I do lift my weight off the saddle and lean when I want her to go faster. So she properly responds, but it is inconvenient when you're ducking low to have your horse trot off.



Hondo said:


> I'm using my trooper make over saddle now with the English hammock type seat support but rigid bars custom fit to Hondo. The seat really feels nice and secure and mega comfy although I've not done a long ride on it. Mounting from the ground with a loose cinch is no longer a problem. I'm happy and Hondo seems to be.


I'll be interested to hear how the saddle works out. Do you have pics of it? 
LOL, yesterday my friend told me she wasn't going to tighten the cinch on Sage until the mounting block because he's tall and she has trouble pulling upward to tighten it. Of course I forgot and was halfway up when I felt that the saddle was just sitting there but since I was on a mounting block it stayed in place. Then I had to hop right off again.


Hondo said:


> Was that the hill your friends took you on way back when they first invited you to ride with Amore? Where you were supposed to yell clear at the top so the next rider could start up? Sounds like a bunch of mad dirtbikers!


Yes, exactly! 


Hondo said:


> I've had a couple of really nice email exchanges from the author of The Limits of Negative Reinforcement in Equus. So nice to have a conversation about a really touchy and potentially explosive subject and be able to remain casually exactly on topic and in a very constructive way.


Anything interesting you wouldn't mind sharing?


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## Hondo

Saddle is not that much to look at. But it works and I like it. Here's a link to some before, during, and after photos. https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMg7RTIqgvnNM7HGS82djXlT49LVmqblmp3AspW

And a couple of pics from today's ride.

















The portion of the article I was/am puzzled about was the subsection titled CORRECT AND RELEASE.

Because the aversive stimuli was presented after the unwanted behavior it seemed to me to be positive punishment.

But she says that BF Skinner said positive punishment had to be noxious which included pain.

She considers putting the horse to work as a form of pressure and when it stops bunny hopping or bucking the pressure is released by allowing the work to stop.

When I Googled "BF Skinner Positive Punishment" several site came up all referring to any aversive stimuli after any behavior, good or bad, was positive punishment.

So I'm still puzzled. I read up on "Correction" and found several descriptions of it being a substitute behavior. Others called a correction a punishment. But the substitution makes sense and seems to me at this point to describe the action of making the horse trot when it was bucking.

All said, I emphatically agree with the premise of the article that positive punishment is the least efficient way to train animal or human and the most efficient way to create distrust with negative reinforcement following a ways behind, better but not as preferred as positive reinforcement which teaches and builds trust at the same time which she will be discussing next month.

So anyhow, if you or anyone else has thoughts I'd like to hear them. You already know from my past threads that this entire area is of paramount importance to me.


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## Hondo

BTW, from my understanding from what I've read, the honey comb structure of the Supracore saddle pad was designed by NASA to distribute the g forces o the astronauts during lift off. I figger, good enough for them, good enough for Hondo.

I'll use the old cut up one for Dragon and his pack saddle.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> She considers putting the horse to work as a form of pressure and when it stops bunny hopping or bucking the pressure is released by allowing the work to stop.
> 
> So I'm still puzzled. I read up on "Correction" and found several descriptions of it being a substitute behavior. Others called a correction a punishment. But the substitution makes sense and seems to me at this point to describe the action of making the horse trot when it was bucking.


Hmm, that's something that requires more thinking. 
Something I've often wondered is if for some horses allowing movement is a release of pressure and making them stand still is a form of pressure. It's seemed to me that for some horses it is the opposite of "normal." I've worked horses that wanted to run off, and if you kept them running longer than they wanted to, that was work and pressure and they learned to stop. I've also worked horses that wanted to run off, and if you made them keep running they were happy and just kept running.

Your saddle looks interesting. Is it comfortable?


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## Hondo

Saddle is mega comfortable compared to the other. It also feels deep and secure. I should take a picture of the bottom. I didn't use the leather/fleece cover for the bars that were on the original. I left the bars bare and they sit directly on the Supracore pad. The hammock could be adjusted for rider twist but it feels fine as is. But again, I haven't done a long ride and that is what really tells the story on comfort as I'm sure you know all too well.

When the author just flatly said that work to a horse is pressure, I thought of Halla and the work you have to do at times to keep her from taking off. I did mention to the author that I was not fully convinced that work was always pressure to all horses at all times but would not quibble the point as I was more concerned about the notion of correct/release vs punishment.

Yes, the entire area/notion requires a lot of thinking, which I seem to do almost daily. And sometimes the distance between my musing theory and what occurs on the ground is quite large. So much to learn and understand about these creatures.


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## Hondo

I'll add that the Trooper Saddle is based on the 1902 British UP (universal pattern) Saddle for the British Cavalry and is still in use today.

The bars were designed to fit many horses 'sort of' adequately with differing foldings of the wool blanket that went under it. Custom fit bars were of no use as saddles were often pulled off a dead horse in the military and placed on the next available horse.

Except for the bar design, I was really drawn to the overall design of the saddle. I have a set of Korrector Pad air bladders I had planned to use with it but the fit is good enough so as to not really need it.

The design is such that the bars could easily be changed out if needed.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> is if for some horses allowing movement is a release of pressure and making them stand still is a form of pressure. It's seemed to me that for some horses it is the opposite of "normal." I've worked horses that wanted to run off, and if you kept them running longer than they wanted to, that was work and pressure and they learned to stop. I've also worked horses that wanted to run off, and if you made them keep running they were happy and just kept running.


I think this goes back to finding the technique that works best for each individual. Because I agree that for some horses, being able to move their feet is the release of pressure depending upon the situation. I think a lot of it goes down to the comfort vs stress level of the animal as it directly relates to the environment.

For example, I am very afraid of heights. So "allowing" me to stand on the edge of a narrow trail vs letting me keep moving down the trail (preferably to a lower or wider section) would NOT be a release of pressure. Indeed, letting me continue down the trail to where I felt safer would be. The opposite would be true if I was running around my back yard, as I am not a runner so would much prefer to stand still - because I feel safe in my backyard (and I don't like to run).


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## horseluvr2524

Watching that video made me smile. I especially like hearing your commentary, I find it more entertaining than music. Sage was pretty spry. He looked like fun. Anything that says "warmblood" always makes me think big mover. Was he rough?

We have a lot of steep hills like that out here, except ours are all desert rock, so you pretty much have to power trot up them as cantering and galloping is too dangerous. Funny you know, when you think desert you get a picture of sand dunes. But we don't have anything like that. No real galloping terrain out here. I have a little 'galloping track' about a half hour ride from the barn, but it's about 30 seconds worth. I long to find somewhere we could just stretch out and run for a mile or so.

Glad you are getting some riding in still! That's the nice thing about having horse friends, even when you don't have your horse to ride you still have a horse to ride.


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## gottatrot

@horseluvr2524, Sage does have a big trot, but he is very smooth. All of his gaits are smooth but his canter is round and he leaps upward even on the flat.

Tonight I spent some time with my horses in the round pen. Amore looks great, but I notice that whenever I brush her back if I push down she is tender. I think her arthritis makes her back muscles sore. I'll have to work on massaging her back over the winter. I just let her wander around the round pen and don't make her do anything. She pretty much does what she wants nowadays but is still very sweet about everything. 

Halla...moving visibly stiff at the trot. It's very subtle, but now that I know her knee bothers her I can see it. So I just observed for several circles and then let her loose to mull around with Amore too. I'm not sure if she's going to be good for even light rides anymore. I'll keep watching in case things improve, but trying to be realistic. The only part that stresses me out a bit is knowing I'm going to have to be watching carefully to make sure she's not having too much pain and good quality of life. I need to get the vet out soon to do a steroid injection to see if that helps.

My riding skills are not going to waste yet, however. You might remember Brave (Braveheart), the Kiger Mustang/Arab/Friesian mix. 









Tonight I did something I've never done before that I can remember; I rode a horse being ponied. This was only Brave's 10th ride, his first on the beach, but he's been ponied on the beach without a rider now for a few times. We put my dressage saddle on him which fit pretty well, and that didn't seem to bother him even though he's only had a Western saddle on so far. 

When his owner asked me if I'd ride him, I was wondering if I should because I didn't get much sleep today and thought I should be pretty sharp to ride such a greenie on the beach. But of course I did it. 

He was very good. We passed by an elk herd, a dog ran straight at us, we went into the waves, saw lots of fires, had a low flying airplane and quite a few cars, kids, etc. Labor Day weekend is pretty busy down here. 

Brave only spooked twice, once when Cass, the gentle giant spooked at a pile of shoes placed at odd angles in the sand. He only shuddered through his body and recovered. The second time I spooked him because I forgot for a moment I was on such a greenie and I leaned forward and flapped at a speck of something on the side of his neck. He was mostly calm - you couldn't forget your life was in danger on Amore when she was green, or Halla, but with him it was easy to forget. 

His history is that he was bred for a woman who was going to bring him to Europe, and because of their traditions he was turned out for five years to grow up and was barely handled. He was kept a stud because she planned to breed him. She ended up getting ill and having to sell him, but over here no one wanted a five year old unhandled stud. So he went from an expensive horse to a very cheap one and was gelded. Now he is six. Apparently even many trainers considered him too old and feral. Ridiculous! He is a wonderful horse.

But being unhandled, he had never had things or people on his off side, so he is still getting used to people, hands, objects and noises on his body on the off side. 

Briefly, we took Brave off the lunge line and I circled around and practiced turning, stopping, etc. Later, back on the lunge we did some long trotting side by side. Cass ended up trotting fast at one point, and Brave did a lurch which I think was the first stride of the canter. I was thinking that we were on the line so I didn't want to canter past Cass, so I touched the reins and Brave dropped out of it. But that slowed him to where the lunge line yanked him a bit. So he lurched forward into a trot again. Oops, I'm not used to being on a line.

Brave's trot was big, but unlike Sage it is a bit rough so far. I two pointed and stayed off his not-yet-strong back. When we got back to the trailer, he stood with his head down. It wasn't a longer ride than he's done, but he's only done short rides carrying a rider so far, so between that and all the thinking he was worn out.

His owner wondered about his balance going up and down dunes with a rider, but with my size he didn't feel like he struggled. He's a super fast learner and so far everything is going wonderfully with his training. I'll probably be riding him more to help with his training.


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## horseluvr2524

Awesome! Well, if Brave's owner also owns Cass, since she has two horses, perhaps going out with her can become a regular thing?

Brave is gorgeous! What a looker. Shan would be swooning and would quickly forget Tuff, the big old jock at the stable. She's in heat again so she's totally forgotten about her BF Belle and thinks Tuff is just the best thing since soaked beet pulp!

BTW, just putting this here because you might find it interesting. I took Shan off of alfalfa three weeks ago, and she no longer gets hives or bug bites, and no longer itches. I have no idea why the alfalfa was causing that. I started the experiment of no alfalfa after noticing a trend when I would skip a day or two of alfalfa pellets then put her back on. It's a success, no more hives and no more bites. Weird huh?!


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## Hondo

So how many retired horses does a person need to have in your area before horse property starts looking good financially?

Could be a start on that human geriatrics retirement plus equine retirement center you mentioned a while back.

Who knows, I might see ya there someday.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> BTW, just putting this here because you might find it interesting. I took Shan off of alfalfa three weeks ago, and she no longer gets hives or bug bites, and no longer itches. I have no idea why the alfalfa was causing that. I started the experiment of no alfalfa after noticing a trend when I would skip a day or two of alfalfa pellets then put her back on. It's a success, no more hives and no more bites. Weird huh?!


It could be explained by a mild, subclinical alfalfa allergy. I think we discussed once how in humans, a mild food allergy such as to wheat can cause more histamines to float around in the system. So this type of allergy can cause exercise-induced asthma that occurs only if the food allergen has been eaten in the past few hours. 

It could happen that if a horse had a slight allergy to a food such as alfalfa, more histamines would be circulating around, which would cause more of a response to other triggers such as bites or skin allergens. Hope that makes sense? 

Yes, Hondo, it would be much cheaper to have my own property for my retirees, LOL.
But now for a bit of a rant, which has nothing to do with your post or comments.

You would not believe how many people recently have said to me that I need to find someone with a pasture for my horses. I know these people mean well and haven't thought through all the ramifications of "retiring to pasture." But it does bother me a little bit. 

First, then what...I could afford a 3rd horse? One I could ride? My other two horses still need time and attention. But also, horses don't get cheaper as they get older and sicker. Amore is on the pill for her Cushing's, but some Cushing's horses need the dose increased as they age, which could make it even more expensive. If I can't afford more than two younger riding horses, I certainly can't afford a third horse if the other two are old. The older they get, the more likely they are to need joint supplements, daily pain medication, special food they can chew, etc., etc. Horses "put to pasture" still need hoof care, dental care, deworming, and all the feed they always did. 

The image that comes into my mind when people say this is turning my horses out into a field with a shelter and putting out a big bale of hay, checking on them every few days. Meanwhile, my more deserving, younger horse is at the stable where I go every day and ride.

And I hear the term "useful" about horses that are not retired, and it bothers me that we feel that way about horses. A horse that I can ride does not put any money into my bank account. So why is it important that I save money by not boarding a horse I can't ride, but it's OK to pay more if I can ride the horse? Why is it thought acceptable if someone is too busy to ride their rideable horse more than every two weeks or two months, but keeps them at a regular stable, but it's a waste of money to pay for that same stable if the horse can't be ridden?

The reality is that moving my horses to a pasture around here would mean putting them out somewhere that is a farther drive for me and that has no staff on the property checking on things each day. At my barn there are about 5 horses that can't be ridden for physical reasons. The owners pay for board because although they are turned out in a field with a shed, they have twice daily feedings, the shed cleaning daily, fly masks put on and taken off, medications and grain, etc. 

I understand that there are probably some horses out there that can't be ridden but yet are in good enough physical shape and also are in a climate that does not require as much monitoring. A horse turned out in a field around here will have problems with thrush, scratches, rain rot in the winter. If blanketed, those need to be switched out and dried in the case of big storms. There will be bugs, skin breakouts, and hay on the ground will mold. 

What are the chances that older horses will just cope with being on pasture all day/night without getting overweight or underweight? In my case, the two horses could not go out on the same pasture because giving Amore grass all night and day in the spring/summer would mean obesity and founder, while Halla would starve unless I also provided free choice hay (which Amore would eat along with all the grass). They'd have to be separated daily for their pellets so Halla wouldn't eat Amore's pill, and Halla takes two hours to eat her beet pulp and hay pellets. Plus Halla needs her Vitamin E. 

So how do people justify throwing their old, retired horses out to pasture? When they end up with skin conditions and wither away or founder do they blame it on the old age and say oh well, things happen? Sure it would be cheaper for me. But it's a lot easier to have a hose near the barn to clean off sores under good lighting in the winter evenings, and covered shelters with runouts where the horse's hooves and coats can dry out during the stormy weather. Maybe it's cozier to sit and watch my horses eat under a big shelter with light where I can see how their weight is doing than to stand with a flashlight and try to see if they're eating OK in a windstorm. 
And to me it seems far more important to check on these things as horses get older and more frail. 
Guess I'll keep drinking cheap coffee, skip eating out and drive an old car until it gasps its last so I can keep my horses in the lap of luxury. :grin:


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## horseluvr2524

Not much to say, other than people can be silly.

Keeping three horses, and two at a different barn, would be inconvenient. In addition, if you left your current barn (which you like and its hard to find a place you like well, believe me!) then you would have little to no riding opportunities, since you won't be around the boarders with rideable horses!

No reason why you can't have your cheap coffee and Halla and Amore can't have their cake and eat it too!


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## bsms

I think what it really means is that you should put them out to pasture. When you have started to forget about them, and no longer feel as much attachment, and are more excited about a younger horse - you can put them down and be done with them forever. Out of sight. Out of mind. Then out of heart, and soon out of life.

See how easy it is to get rid of a horse?

To be honest, part of me understands some of that. Doesn't say much good about me, maybe. But if Cowboy need an $8000 operation with a 50% chance of survival, I'd put him down. If there was a good home for Bandit, where he'd be ridden by someone who would accept him the way he has become, I'd consider selling him - to make room for an Arabian mare.

But OTOH, if Cowboy became unrideable tomorrow, but otherwise was not in pain...he could stay until he died. He has had at least 6 previous owners. Enough is enough! No pony should go thru an never ending cycle of "_I've grown too big to ride ponies, get me a bigger horse!_" 

And if Bandit's front left leg - the one he used twisted for so long - got to where he could walk fine but couldn't be ridden, I'd probably keep him for many years. Walk him like a dog. I used to think he was a hot horse. He isn't. Not even close. But he's getting to be a big sweetheart of a horse...

I admire your dedication to your horses. I don't have that depth of dedication, but I admire it in you. It is something I do not admire about me.


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## Hondo

Hee. I think I touched a nerve. But as the current saying goes, "Let me be clear". I would not in a million years suggest just putting a horse out to pasture and more or less forget about them. I see way too much of that up near and very close.

When I say "horse property", I'm thinking of a dwelling on the horse property. Living on the property with the horses. Sure, I can imagine that a pasture would be much cheaper than a barn. But again, I'm talking about getting up in the morning, looking out the window to see which end they are at, then going outside to greet the day with them.

Each and every day. Multiple times per day usually. With no driving except to work.

Well, unless you were located really well, might have to start thinking about that truck and trailer you were pondering about a year or so ago.

I'm spoiled. (and i like it  I would be totally frustrated if I could not walk outside and be with the horses within 10 minutes or so.

So that's what I was asking about. Live on horse property. But losing the community of the barn would be a loss I'm sure. Although I like how my set up is, I do at times envy the casual interaction with other horse people with similar attitudes towards the horse.

So that would probably be 5 acres minimum with 10 being better. What think thee about that?

PS: I totally agree with your rant.


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## Hondo

OTOH, I can just imagine what some people at a barn would have been saying about my unsafe practices this afternoon while reclining in a lawn chair with Dragon performing mutual grooming on my mane (top of my head) with his lips and tongue.


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## egrogan

I can totally relate @gottatrot. And, I have been shopping for that "horse property" just to see what it might be like. After looking at a lot of houses with pasture/barns in various configurations (or non-existent) I think I'm actually content with boarding, even as Izzy ages and I look to add a younger horse for more intense riding. I recognize I'm fortunate to have the option of boarding two horses, so there's that. But I have been feeling really guilty even looking for another horse since Izzy is still rideable. I feel like every time I talk to a person with a horse for sale, I explain that I have an older horse who's "easing into retirement" so they don't think I'm a terrible horse owner who's just casting aside an older horse.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> When I say "horse property", I'm thinking of a dwelling on the horse property. Living on the property with the horses. Sure, I can imagine that a pasture would be much cheaper than a barn. But again, I'm talking about getting up in the morning, looking out the window to see which end they are at, then going outside to greet the day with them.
> 
> Each and every day. Multiple times per day usually. With no driving except to work.


Yes, I did understand what you meant, and it wasn't to drop my horses off in a pasture. 

Owning horse property does sound very ideal, and it was a tricky decision to buy a house with no acreage. I did a year trial of self care boarding to see what it would be like. One issue was that of sleep. My shifts are 12 hours, and even though I do 3 days a week, sometimes the rotation gets to where I do 4 or more in a row. On workdays it was an hour of horse work before my shift, and an hour after, and it wore me out. My husband could do that work if the horses were at home, but I have this principle that my hobbies and all-consuming passions are my responsibility. He does help with horse chores, but I want that to always be his choice and not expected. 

The other issue was leaving. If we went out of town for the day, we had to get back to feed the horses. Especially on short notice, I couldn't just find someone to feed the horses. Then we thought about vacations, and how someone would have to go to our house each day to feed. I wouldn't want to move my horses to a boarding stable temporarily and then leave out of the country, in case they had issues. So I board.

There are a lot of perks, such as people noticing if your horse is injured, a bigger herd of horses to interact with, the hay and bedding are shipped in for you, fence repairs are done for you, tack to borrow from other people in a pinch, extra horses to ride, and second opinions galore. 
@bsms, I don't fault anyone for finding a good home for a horse that is healthy and can go to a good situation. It's not that I feel everyone must keep any horse they buy forever. I'd rehome a horse if they were not a good fit for me, meaning it turned out they were a horse anyone could ride but they didn't have a lot of drive and weren't having fun going for long rides. That is a horse many people would be happy to own. 

But it's different to discard horses that are not longer "useful" to us or anyone else. It rubs me wrong that useful means rideable when horses are useful to us by simply being a friend. It seems to me though that many people find other humans quite disposable too. 

My horses wouldn't be going for a big surgery either. I could probably justify spending the money, but I couldn't justify putting a horse through a lot of pain and suffering with no guarantees at the end. In our case, a horse with a broken leg or bad colic would have to ride almost three hours in a trailer to get to the big vet center. Chances are high of them dying a horrible death on the way. Better to go out easily and quickly. 

Actually, I'm certain when it's time for either Amore or Halla to be put to sleep, many people will feel I've done it too soon or for my convenience. I'm not going to let a horse live in daily pain with no hope of getting better as I've often seen. If Halla starts limping on her knee each day and struggles to get up, then she's going to greener pastures. I've heard people say that humans live with daily pain, and perhaps the horse would rather live too. But I think horses only show pain when it's gone beyond a low grade level. It's in their nature to fear death from predators if they are in pain, and I don't see how living in alertness and fear for a few more months is being kind. I've rarely met a horse that died naturally on their own, but I've seen many that suffered for many months while the owner struggled over the decision. I'd rather err on the side of a little too soon.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot

Food for thought on many levels. Yeah, since your hubby's passion is travel, stay at home horses could cramp his style. And impact your work life.

What would be really neat is that if another couple similar to you both had an acreage, 1-5 miles or so from you. And were friends. Then you could swap horse care. That would be neat and is something I would like also.

As it is, I have slept on the ranch every single night for over three years now. I'm getting set up to be able to escape during the hottest and coldest weather taking the horses with me. I've upgraded my fence to keep cattle out if I do leave, but with the upgraded fence, I'm thinking about goats and chickens. I'd be home bound again. So maybe I need to find someone to do some swapping also.

Can the rats have enough food and water to last for a vacation? Cat?

And very good point I think on horses showing pain. Only done when it is really really bad. Something has always happened that I've never had to put a pet down. Just to think of it is really depressing to me. I'd be hard pressed to criticize anybody for PTS or not PTS.

I had a first cousin that died of bone cancer which is very painful. His brother told me in later years that Bobby had begged him to just bring a gun and leave it with him. Kenneth told me that if he had it to do over he probably would.


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## gottatrot

I've been chatting a lot on @*bsms* ' journal regarding riding on contact. 
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/
Some very good posts on there by bsms about equine locomotion, goals of teaching the horse to balance himself, etc.

@*updownrider* asked why I was so vocal against something I did not participate in since my goals are "completely different," and seemed to be saying that putting horses on the bit was "a necessary and successful method." Thinking my response might be personal to me and also off topic of bsms' journal, I decided to put it here.

It seems very important to me that we understand the "why" behind what we are doing with our horses. There is a dangerous combination of not thinking deeply about what we are doing with horses and also wanting success in the show ring that leads to things like peanut rollers and big lick horses. Unfortunately, thinking deeply and studying subjects such as theories of movement does not mean we learn it once and never have to change our thinking about it. Some things we study may be proven wrong eventually.

I've met quite a number of people like myself who are extremely serious about horses while not currently entering the show or competition ring. There seems to be this prejudice that people who don't currently show are sort of slack-off seat-of-the-pants riders who just ride casually and don't care about the finer nuances of training and riding. But there are all kinds of reasons for not showing. 

So while one goal (winning a competition) may be different from the riders currently showing, all other goals may be very serious and similar to other dedicated riders. There are quite a few clinicians who are serious horsemen but yet don't currently show. Their goals are still to achieve high level training with horses, even if those horses never enter a show ring. There are also many things to do with horses outside of the show ring that require a high level of performance. 

Speaking for some good friends who are advanced riders, schooling their horses over jumps, working with their horses on collection and extension and rhythm and balance, or teaching gaming but haven't been in a show ring recently. 

Some things in the horse world are very culture-centric and isolated. Such as saddleseat training, Standardbred pacer training, or Paso training. 
The theories and ideas behind riding horses with constant bit contact are not isolated. They are extremely universal to the point where almost every rider I go out with who has had any type of lesson or been exposed to showing or a trainer is well versed in the idea. I ride with a large variety of people - some of my friends have mainly done endurance, dressage, WP showing or jumping. Even friends who have only ridden local trail rides and shows discuss how they need to get their horse "round" to move properly. 

I also showed and worked extensively on getting horses to accept the bit, round up, move with impulsion into the bit. It's not that my goals have changed and I no longer want my horses to move well or am fine with them performing less athletically. Rather, with the same goals in mind I've changed my beliefs on what methods are necessary to get there. *It's about methods, not goals.* It's not that I think I'll be fine if my next horse never learns to be well trained or able to collect up when I jump. It's that I believe I can teach my horse to move and jump athletically without making her accept constant contact as I've expected other horses to do in the past. 

I believe that traditions change more slowly in the horse world than some areas, and if these discoveries about equine biomechanics were part of the medical field, changes would be happening within 5 years. But that doesn't mean we should use old information to justify doing things. Doesn't sound as great to say, "I make my horse accept bit pressure because if I make him move with his neck curved over, people think he looks prettier. Probably if I do it too much he'll have arthritis in his neck eventually, as many dressage horses do. But it sure looks nice." It sounds a lot better to say, "Teaching him to carry himself this way creates better balance and a stronger back so he can better carry the weight of a rider. Well trained horses carry themselves like this." Even if it's hogwash.


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## bsms

The discussion on my journal was rooted in two different philosophies of riding and balance. 

I believe most horses - not a horse like Mia who grew up in a corral, but most horses - already possess incredible athletic ability and beauty. Even Mia had MOST of the skills required. 

Our backyard has a section where we put large rocks on a hillside to control erosion. We also planted trees. So this small section is covered with 12 inch jagged rocks (rip-rap), is sloped and furrowed, has short tree, and is difficult for a human to walk across. The first time I saw our horses race across it, I assumed they were going to injure themselves. But when I examined their legs and feet, there wasn't a mark on any of them! Not even Mia.

My goal, as a rider, is to get out of my horse's way and restore their ability to move - like they already can without me. I'll never achieve it. But it is important to me to try. Because I've never seen a horse with a rider who moved with as much power and grace as I've seen my own Craigslist horses move in my backyard.

The other fundamental approach says humans know more about balance and motion than a horse does, and we therefor must teach the horse how to move well. It assumes a horse's back can round into an arch, and thus become stronger and better able to carry a rider. Thus the rider's goal, in order to protect the horse from the rider's weight, is to "round" the horse. And that theory has led to this:






































The problem is that horses do not and cannot round their backs to create an arch. When they adjust their motion to look "round", they increase the stress on their legs, work harder (less efficiently) and are required - by either pressure or training - to look just in front of their feet. I've chosen mostly "western" pictures, because the supposedly western arena sports are trying to conform to the ideas of many riders about how a horse should look.

I understand this is required for some sports. *I do not understand how anyone can think it is beautiful.*

Meanwhile, this is considered unbalanced:










OK, Trooper's half-brother isn't moving. But his neck is elevated, his nose is out, there is nothing to suggest an arch in his back...so...yuck?

These are ugly, unbalanced, out of control?




























I don't see any way to reconcile the two philosophies.

I was asked about rider comfort. If a way of turning is more efficient for a horse, but makes it harder to stay on the horse, is that acceptable to me? My answer is a resounding "_Yes!_" The horse didn't ask me to ride him! A beginning rider may need the horse's help just to stay on, but a more experienced rider should have no problem with working harder so the horse can work less - provided one can still stay on and be safe.

My favorite author, VS Littauer, wrote, "_I very strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned._" I would go farther, and say we should ask of each sport, "_What is in it for the horse?_" I get very nervous when people start saying, "_It is the horse's JOB to please me!_" I don't think the horse signed up for a job. I bought him...but I'm not his master.


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## updownrider

> @updownrider asked why I was so vocal against something I did not participate in since my goals are "completely different," and seemed to be saying that *putting horses on the bit was "a necessary and successful method." *Thinking my response might be personal to me and also off topic of bsms' journal, I decided to put it here.


Since you quoted me, I am popping in.
Bolding mine.
Please go back and reread what I wrote. I do not appreciate words being put in my mouth.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> My goal, as a rider, is to get out of my horse's way and restore their ability to move - like they already can without me.


I've been thinking similar for a while. I don't know for a fact that the indigenous american natives were the superior riders I read about, but it's mentioned often. I've wondered if they sat around in their wigwams discussing the finer points of whatever.

The Mongolians are supposed to be fine riders also. It'd be interesting to me to hear their philosophies.


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> Please go back and reread what I wrote. I do not appreciate words being put in my mouth.





> But to be vocally against a necessary and successful method of something that you do not participate in because your goals are completely different is puzzling to me.


That is exactly what you wrote, and what I quoted, so I'm not sure what bothers you?
I put the quotations around your exact words. If you were referring to another necessary and successful method that we were not currently discussing (I believed we were talking about riding horses on the bit), then that was unclear to me. 



> *Bsms *- My favorite author, VS Littauer, wrote, "I very strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned." I would go farther, and say we should ask of each sport, "What is in it for the horse?"


Something that occurred to me after reading this quote is that it might be interesting to think about which horse sports consider putting horses on the bit as a necessary part of the game. 
I can't think of any horse sports that are objectively judged that seem to need horses ridden into contact, and all the ones where it is most common seem to be subjectively judged by humans.

Endurance, polo, cutting, barrel racing, track racing, jumping, roping...none of these athletic pursuits seem to need horses ridden into contact. They also are based on objective performance such as time or clear rounds. All the sports where contact is deemed necessary seem to be judged subjectively by humans with the horse's appearance being part of the equation.


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## updownrider

gottatrot said:


> That is exactly what you wrote, and what I quoted, so I'm not sure what bothers you?
> I put the quotations around your exact words. If you were referring to another necessary and successful method that we were not currently discussing (I believed we were talking about riding horses on the bit), then that was unclear to me.


I was discussing contact with bsms. Several times you brought up on the bit, and I said on the bit and contact were not necessarily the same thing. You took what I said "a necessary and successful method" and added "on the bit" before it. I did *not* state that *on the bit *was the necessary and successful method. You may have interpreted it that way but I did not state it that way. If it was unclear to you, you should have asked me for clarification. As I said, I had already said more than once that contact [with the horse's mouth] and on the bit are not the same.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...it might be interesting to think about which horse sports consider putting horses on the bit as a necessary part of the game.
> I can't think of any horse sports that are objectively judged that seem to need horses ridden into contact, and all the ones where it is most common seem to be subjectively judged by humans...


I can't think of any exceptions. Maybe someone else can. By the definition of "on the bit", it would require a slower rate of speed than could be achieved without it. But that is the goal of those sports. However, even in watching the Olympics, I have a hard time relating to 'sports' that are judged by humans instead of time, weight moved, person pinned, etc. Even in the Olympics, it is so far removed from me as to be a foreign language.



Hondo said:


> ...The Mongolians are supposed to be fine riders also. It'd be interesting to me to hear their philosophies.


That got me looking:








​


> ...Between 12 and 15 hands, they have short necks, short legs and are built like bricks. Their cannon diameter is about eight inches. Many have conformation flaws frowned on by European breeds such as cow hocks, ewe necks or ram profiles....
> 
> ...The Mongolian riding style varies greatly from western equitation in the sense that they leave the horse a great amount of freedom in a given situation whilst they perform other tasks. *They do not expect to completely control the horse but trust it to do its job and find the best way through. Therefore, if a western rider gets on a Mongolian horse and expects absolute control the Mongolian horses essentially rebel!*...
> 
> ...Most horses have five gaits instead of four (the fifth being a running walk variously called tölt, single-footing, or racking) and most seem to prefer cantering in virtually any situation. ...
> 
> The Mighty Mongolian Horse ? The Adventurists





> The modern Mongolian riding saddle is very tall, with a wooden frame and several decorated metal disks that stand out from the sides. It has a high pommel and cantle, and is placed upon a felt saddlecloth to protect the horse's back. The horse's thick coat also provides a barrier that helps prevent saddle sores. In the Middle Ages, the Mongols used a different style of saddle, the chief difference being that the cantle flattened out in the rear rather than rising to a peak like the cantle of a modern Mongolian saddle. This allowed the rider greater freedom of movement; with a minimal saddle, a mounted archer could more readily swivel his torso to shoot arrows towards the rear.The Mongolian saddle, showing short stirrups, high pommel and cantle, and distinctive metal discs.
> 
> The Mongolian saddle, both medieval and modern, has short stirrups rather like those used by modern race horses. The design of the stirrups makes it possible for the rider to control the horse with his legs, leaving his hands free for tasks like archery or holding a catch-pole. * Riders will frequently stand in the stirrups while riding.*
> 
> The design of the Mongolian saddle allows only marginal control of the gait. *In most situations, the horse will decide the gait on its own, while the rider is occupied with other tasks such as herding cattle.* Very often, a Mongol horse will choose to canter...
> 
> ...Though Mongolian horses are small, they are used to carry quite large, heavy riders. This ability is due in part to the riders' habit of frequently switching off horses so as not to overtax any particular animal. However, Mongol horses are also very strong. A Darkhad horse weighing only 250 kg. can carry a load of 300 kg—the equivalent of carrying another horse on its back....
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_culture_in_Mongolia







Sounds like "Cowboy" could be a Mongol mustang...








​


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## Hondo

So why don't they just go down to Safeway's? I guess they don't like cow milk.

I read that there are more horses in Mongolia than people. Also read that the Mongolian horses were capable of carrying their own weight.

This puzzled me: "Khan instructed his general Subutai, "See to it that your men keep their crupper hanging loose on their mounts and the bit of their bridle out of the mouth, except when you allow them to hunt. That way they won't be able to gallop off at their whim [tiring out the horses unnecessarily]. Having established these rules--see to it you seize and beat any man who breaks them. ... Any man...who ignores this decree, cut off his head where he stands."

Bit out of their mouth so they can't gallop off at a whim? Not sure what's going on there. That said, I don't even have any idea what "on the bit" and "contact" means. Probably because Hondo doesn't use one.

The Mongolian's belief is: A man without a horse is only a half man, a man with a horse is two men.


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## Golden Horse

gottatrot said:


> Endurance, polo, cutting, barrel racing, track racing, jumping, roping...none of these athletic pursuits seem to need horses ridden into contact. They also are based on objective performance such as time or clear rounds. All the sports where contact is deemed necessary seem to be judged subjectively by humans with the horse's appearance being part of the equation.


No contact in any of those? I think you need to research a bit more.....


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## bsms

There is no reason to have a bit if there is "no contact". @gottatrot's phrase was "horses ridden into contact" - which differs from frequent contact.

How frequently the contact is applied and for how long is open to question. 

Polo seems to have frequent contact, but they don't seem to be using constant contact. Aggressive neck reining will result in contact, but that is contact while giving a cue. Not constant contact.











Jumping can use constant contact, but it shows a full range of approaches, including bitless.

I have frequent contact with Bandit in the desert and will probably have more if we increase our speed of travel. He can get excited, and sometimes needs to be 'reined in', but that is separate from constant contact.

I don't know of any western riding that uses constant contact as standard.


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> I was discussing contact with bsms. Several times you brought up on the bit, and I said on the bit and contact were not necessarily the same thing. You took what I said "a necessary and successful method" and added "on the bit" before it. I did *not* state that *on the bit *was the necessary and successful method. You may have interpreted it that way but I did not state it that way. If it was unclear to you, you should have asked me for clarification. As I said, I had already said more than once that contact [with the horse's mouth] and on the bit are not the same.


My apologies if we were misunderstanding each other. It was not unclear in my mind, I thought I understood you.
These videos are examples of what I mean when I say "on contact" or "on the bit."
Feel free to clarify what you feel the difference is between riding "on contact" or on the bit" as shown in the videos below versus which other method is the necessary and successful one you felt I was dismissing. 










In the western world it is sometimes called suppeling or softening. Many dressage riders would feel this is doing it wrong and putting the horse on the forehand. Yet the head and neck position are similar to what is often seen in the dressage warm up ring, with a more forceful drive forward.




At it's most basic, it is riding the horse forward into bit pressure and expecting a response from the horse of rounding over while moving forward into the bit pressure. The rider is expected to have a soft and giving hand, and clear direction with all the aids. 

The above videos show what it looks like when a horse has a somewhat compliant mentality and does not outwardly object to the constant pressure. Other horses I've seen will object to the most expert riders and supposedly softest hands, and continue to show outwardly the stress that other horses internalize. People don't want to blame the method, but usually blame the horse.





Riding on the bit is required for winning many subjectively judged horse show classes such as hunter pleasure in many breeds.










The sports I mentioned do not require riding a horse with consistent bit contact in order to succeed. As I said before, everyone who rides with a bit uses contact for cues unless the horse is trained to only neck rein. I'm not sure how or why that type of contact would be debated. Feeling the bit in your hands and trying to maintain a contact with it throughout all the gaits is often called "consistent contact" or "on the bit" and is what I thought was being discussed. Some dressage riders might feel it is more accurate to only describe "on the bit" as a horse that one feels already moves into the bit, "accepts it" completely and drives strongly from the lowered hind end. My use of the term is more broad - as it is a term often used in many disciplines throughout the horse world rather than just dressage.

Those Mongolian horses are pretty amazing. I'd love to ride one someday.


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## tinyliny

the mongols ride their horses standing, often facing about 3/4 sideways. I've heard from a friend who did a riding vacation their that the saddle was horribly uncomfortable. but , that is neither here nor there for the discussion on contact/bit.

I think they use a bit mostly just to stop a charging horse. They mostly trot fast, hour upon hour the horse is pretty much guided by leg only.


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## gottatrot

Here are pictures from my ride on Brave several days ago. Being very careful, as you may see. His owner put a running martingale on him, which ended up being a bother since the reins kept getting slightly hung up on it. Brave had no need for it - he has a naturally lower headset and was not going to slam me in the nose. But it made her feel better for the first beach ride.

In the second to the last pic you might be able to see his dorsal stripe. He has really pretty dun factors with some zebra striping on his legs.


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## Hondo

At what gait would a horse be most likely to hit someone in the nose? Since a horse uses his head and neck for balance, doesn't a martingale interfere somewhat with the balance the horse would prefer?

I just don't understand making a horse carry his head lower than he would choose to.

I'm here for enlightenment.


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## tinyliny

I've had my nose nearly broken by a horse that threw it's head up in a tantrum. I can't remember what we were doing, but it was basically the horse was upset and threw it's head way up , and I happened to be leaning just a tad bit forward and he got me, clunk!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> At what gait would a horse be most likely to hit someone in the nose? Since a horse uses his head and neck for balance, doesn't a martingale interfere somewhat with the balance the horse would prefer?
> 
> I just don't understand making a horse carry his head lower than he would choose to.
> 
> I'm here for enlightenment.


A running martingale is supposed to be adjusted so it only engages if the horse puts their head above a certain level. So for example, on Brave he would have had to raise his head quite a lot to cause any downward pressure on the reins. Ideally you put keepers on the reins so the rings can't get too close to the bit and get stuck if the horse puts his head down. If the martingale had been adjusted low to where he might struggle with vision or balance, I wouldn't have felt safe riding him, so would have asked to take it off.

The gait where a horse would be most likely to hit someone in the nose? Bucking, rearing, crow hopping - things you don't want horses to do but that sometimes happen on a green horse that gets spooked. A horse with a neck like Brave would be hard pressed to hit a person in the face. Horses like Halla and Amore with higher neck sets can smash you if they start hopping around. Amore broke my nose once, Halla's almost knocked me out and I've had some close calls with ears inside my nostrils. Small horses with short necks are the worst for this, since their skull can come up where your head is.


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## bsms

I tried looking for videos of horses tossing their heads. I only found one where the tossing was dramatic. Not sure the rider is doing herself any favors, but I've never had to deal with it. People sometimes talk about certain pieces of tack as if it is cheating, and sometimes it is. But as an Instructor Pilot used to say, "_You no have will to cheat, you no have will to win!_" Glad I don't have this:


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## tinyliny

That horse has a problem with going forward. Why?, one would have to know the horse to make a guess. It may be discomfort, or a bad habit. I saw nothing I would criticize in the rider's performance. However, a martingale on might be of help protect the rider.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Thanks for the informative answer. Broken nose, ears in the nostrils. Now I understand.

Actually, there was one guy that got knocked out here on the ranch but he was in quicksand and the horse was lurching. I got into the same situation, once and only once since I now pay a little more attention to what Hondo is trying to tell me. Anyhow, I don't remember his head coming near be but he is not a hot horse.

The horse in the video was doing more tail tossing than head tossing. I had in my mind that serious tail tossing was a sign of pain or tack, but have no idea if that is true or not. Will a horse toss it's tail THAT much just because it may not want to be ridden?

I'd have named the video, Rats On Turnout.


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## Zexious

Brave is stunning! Wowee!
Thanks for sharing those lovely beach photos ;o;

I'd venture to say getting clocked in the face is somewhat of a rarity, especially with predominantly recreational riding. I've never had to ride a horse with a running martingale.


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## Fimargue

Talila's ex-owner had a martingale for her all the time - I saw that in the photos that where taken when they did endurance with her. When I got her she used to toss her head a lot, even with the headcollar. She stopped that quickly, but it took ages for her to come through and over her back.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I'd have named the video, Rats On Turnout.


Hee hee that is better.

Domestic rats are apparently usually docile and easy to handle once they get used to you. These guys don't seem very afraid of me, but they're not exactly taming down either. Now that I've started turning them out more, it's been a trick to get them from their cage over to their safe running around area. 

The first day I carried them with my bare hands, and although I was able to pick them up, as we walked through the room they got nervous and chomped on my fingers. Having been bitten by dogs, cats, horses, birds, and various other critters, I can easily overrule my instinct to let go when things bite me, but I was bleeding pretty good by the time I set them down. Rats have rather strong jaws.

The next day I wore gloves, which made it so only one of the harder bites bled.
Today I herded them into a plastic jellybean container with a lid, and carried them in it. No bites. Once they're loose, they come and run all over me but are very wary of my hands. 

It would be nice if they let me hold them and pet them like domestic rats do, but I'm not counting on it. I've read that wild rats are more like wolves while domestic rats are like pet dogs. So it may be that those strong protective instincts won't allow them to completely trust me as they get older.

I've also learned that these are roof rats. Norway rats are one type of wild rat, and those are the ones that became domesticated. Roof rats are smaller, faster, more agile. Great.

They are still interesting to watch and seem to be enjoying life. I'm not comfortable with the fact that they sometimes jump down 5 feet onto the top of their cardboard castle, but they don't seem to get hurt. 

Today both rats were up clinging to the top of the cupboards, and rudely walking over each other, causing whichever one was getting shoved to cling on desperately with one foot at times. I've seen them hang upside down off a shelf with one foot over the lip, looking around down below to see if they want to jump.


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## Hondo

Curious little rascals. Don't think I'd like the biting part.

In regards to head tossing, Dragon tosses his head being ponied, but it's just play and boredom. He just seems to enjoy hooking his nose under the lead and tossing it. Sort of like my dog does with her lesh when feeling playful. Dragon also, I'm suspecting, enjoys the fact that he can make my arm move around bit. He's always into something as he seems to bore easily. Has to be watched constantly in the yard/pen or no telling what he'll figure out to entertain himself.

I've thought about using one of those harsh dog collars with stuff sticking out to use between the halter and lead snap. Or just a piece of small cable. That way it would be uncomfortable for him to toss the rope up.

But I didn't want to do that kind of stuff.

I bought a 15 foot lead rope and carry a 2 1/2 foot loop (5 ft) in my hand. The part going directly to him is held lightly. When he jerks or throws the rope up, there is no resistance to him. Viola! So far it seems to be working as his tossing is decreasing. I may be assigning human characteristics, but I think he may have enjoyed the fact that he was doing something to me. And now it's not working.

But I'm not counting my chickens yet. He may find other ways to entertain himself back there. He's a good guy.


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## gottatrot

Took Brave out for his second beach ride today. We trailered a few miles to a different stretch of beach, and met up with some other women for a total of 8 horses including Nala and her rider. 

Brave has a strange back - it's pretty wide and short but he also has very long withers with a big rise. Last time I used my dressage saddle but was insecure about it getting very close to his withers. So today I rode in my treeless Ghost. His owner does not have an english saddle that fits, only a large western. 

I'm a bit hyper aware on Brave, knowing things could go south quickly. It's sort of like you have this collection of things in your mind that is different for each horse. In my mind on this ride was the fact that the group was large, and I didn't know most of the other riders. So I didn't know how Brave would respond to the other horses and if any of them were out of control. Tempering that thought was the fact that the other riders were all in western saddles other than Nala's rider, and judging by their seats, the horses were not prone to doing unexpected things.

Brave's owner let me ditch the running martingale, and we decided that I didn't need to be ponied. I used a double jointed D snaffle since the O ring we used last time had pinched Brave's lip on one side. 

There is a difference between a hot horse, a green horse, and a hot, green horse. Brave is not hot. We are learning each other quickly, but I realized today one reason I feel a bit tentative on him is that he is one of the few very green horses I've been on that I didn't start myself. So I really have had no idea what he knows other than I know he's been exposed to the environment we're riding in, and that he leads well and cues off other horses.

Today we figured a lot out. He's super smart, so we worked a lot on the fact that when my seat and legs were pointed straight, I wanted him to go straight, and I guided him back when he wandered with the rein and leg cues. I tried hard to make each cue on and off with a quick release as soon as he responded. It helped me feel better now that I had the chance to use my reins more and I could feel that he is not terribly claustrophobic and I can hold pressure for a couple seconds with him still using his brain and not panicking. 

After Amore, I don't think of that as a given. Once upon a time she was a hot, green horse. It's a lot different being on a horse that you give a little pressure and he thinks and then moves, versus giving a tiny bit of pressure and flying all over the place and trying to figure out how to let the horse know which response was the one that you'd wanted.

The first time I asked him to trot he had no idea what I wanted. Not a clue. He's never been asked to trot by the rider, only followed when the other horse trotted. I added a little leg pressure, gave rein, lifted my seat a little, and he got very tense and ready but tried walking faster. I told him to trot, and he walked faster still. Finally he tried a trot step and I loosened up everything and relaxed, telling him he was a good boy. 
The second time I asked him to trot it only took him about five seconds, and the third time he picked it up right after I asked. He's smart.

On the way back, Brave's owner asked everyone if they wanted to trot, and I said sure, so we all began trotting. Suddenly it felt very exciting and Brave's head was up and I asked him to slow a little and he trotted bigger. So I called ahead to his owner and asked her to slow down, which she did. We pulled off and let the others pass, and did a lurching circle. Brave so far either does these very huge irregular turns or he turns way too tight. Greenies. 

We decided to trot again but put all the other horses in front instead of chasing us. Without the clopping hooves behind us, Brave settled nicely and relaxed into the trot on a loose rein, and slowed when I asked. My stirrups were way too long, but he was doing super well and I figured as long as he didn't buck real hard I'd be fine. He only lurched forward a couple times, we had gone in the water and his tail got wet, and I guess it scared him when it slapped against his leg. And once I saw a mosquito biting my arm and slapped it hard. Oops, forgot I was on the greenie.

We went quite far away from the safety net of Cass, led and followed other horses, passed between groups and trotted all on our own. I think Brave did amazing. I relaxed as much as I could, and trusted him as much as I could. 

He's very different, and I don't know the Friesian temperament but he doesn't quite feel like an Arab or a Mustang. His breeder wanted to create the perfect endurance horse, but I don't think she did. He feels like he will want to go slow. He has very little spook or panic for a green horse, which is good. I'm not sure how to manage his energy, because I'm not used to this type of temperament. By the time he's had a little panic, I'm working up to take care of our "big problem," but it's over and I am left behind so to speak. "OK, here we....go." That would be the reactive type just getting their hooves underneath them in readiness for the bigger things to come. But it's already over.

If I rode him enough he might train me to be non-reactive, hee hee.
Here's a cute picture of him...I'm lucky to get to ride him.


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## Hondo

gottatrot's falling in love


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## gottatrot

Not to be a downer, but writing is therapy for me...

I am feeling profound sadness, because as I look at Valhalla I see that the hourglass has the last few sand grains trickling down and our time is nearly over.

In the landscape of our lives, our horses are not pebbles, they are mountains. 

What is a horse? An animal, a living creature. Yet somehow, more.

Our time with a particular horse becomes deeply etched into the timeline of our life, and that horse is not a hobby like golf or fishing. We don’t remember an experience or day as a fond memory of a good time; rather we have the Valhalla years. Those years with a horse that change us forever.

The days I spent with Halla on the mountain trails or the beach were not merely time spent with a good friend. Instead, she became we, a part of my identity, a piece of my soul that grew intertwined with my deepest self. She was the me that could express itself in the physicality of power and liberation. The me that sang out loud because of joy. The me that was profound quietness. Riding her was wind and waves, a clashing sound and overwhelming beauty.

With both my horses our relationships began in some anguish over the clash between a determination to give them a good life and to work with them versus the doubt I had in my ability to handle their exquisite and exhausting personalities. 

I remember the heart pounding moments as I used every part of my wits and skill to keep Halla in check and wondering what was about to happen. I remember the feeling of adrenaline stabbing through the center of my chest. I remember the times she showed me that it was only the goodness of her heart that allowed me to control her, and that she clearly understood that at any moment she could take complete command of herself and do whatever she wanted. 

I remember how it felt to move in perfect harmony, with her seemingly reading my thoughts and responding to them, rather than my cues. I remember her boundless pride in herself, and how she could swell up larger than the biggest horse I’d ever been on.

Somehow, and I don’t know how or when, there was a turning point with both my horses where they went from teetering at the edge of too difficult, with two handfuls of reins overflowing, to an interesting puzzle, or a tricky game. The energy overflowing the dam began to turn the turbines. I learned them; their ways, their moves, what made them upset and made them calm. After studying the gauntlet, what seemed impossible turned out to be only patterns that needed to be understood. 

Soon I will begin the game again, learning new patterns. But I am not tired of the old ones yet. There was more to learn, would always be more. To learn a horse is like trying to memorize Pi or the sequences of DNA. 

Mountains are treacherous, yet we dare to climb. They are sometimes synonymous with tragedy, with fear, with danger...but also with beauty, inspiration, and elevation of the soul. 

You can’t take a mountain out of the landscape. It will always be there, changing the shape of everything. You can’t stay on the mountain top forever. Soon there is another one to climb. Each is more beautiful than the last, but cannot be compared to one another. Tragedy may await, but I will keep climbing.


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## egrogan

Beautiful @gottatrot. Thank you for sharing so much of Halla with us.


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## Hondo

There are a lot of threads that are inquiries as to considering the ins and outs of buying a horse. IMO, there is just not enough discussion to the prospective owners about caring for a bonded horse between the end of their riding career and end of life. It is such a huge issue.

FWIW though, I have osteoarthritis with bone on bone in both knees. I have insurance for replacements but do not want the down time. Plus, I wind up walking 3 or 4 miles on many days and experience no significant pain which baffles my orthopedic. I have read that lack of exercise can accelerate the degeneration.

I do have to be conscious of how I move and do certain things and avoid loading the knees with too much extra weight, but all in all I'm fine.

OTOH, it can be so difficult to actually know what the horse is and is not feeling.


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## Zexious

Beautifully written, gotta. The best things in life are never easy.


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## gottatrot

Thanks for the helpful thoughts.

It's very tricky, and I am quite unsure about things right now. I'm having the vet come to give me advice. Halla is not cantering anymore, when Nala keeps trying to get her to run. She won't trot on her own either, and I saw her really struggling to get up after rolling. Even in the soft sand she has an abrasion on the outer hock from pushing so hard to get up.

The bad knee almost seems to catch like a trigger finger, like the tendon is getting hung up. I had her walk and trot on the lunge yesterday, and her gait is very shortened in front, even a lot more than it has been. The knee almost looks like it has a popping motion before she sets it down. So I'm not sure if she can move around without pain. Seems to be progressing pretty fast.


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## bsms

^^It isn't possible to "like" a post such as that. I haven't experienced it with horses. Yet. Mostly dogs, when you look at a wonderful, giving, loyal friend and wonder "_How much longer? What do YOU need from me?_" Sometimes the answer is obvious. Even then, it is never easy. Prayers for wisdom, and discernment.


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## weeedlady

beautiful. thank you for sharing your thought and feelings so eloquently.


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## gottatrot

Someone is going to have to put me down before my horses get too much older - can't take the stress! 

Seriously, what I thought was Halla's knee degeneration taking a fast downturn must have been some sort of "tweak" or injury to it. It has been improving steadily for the past several days and she is back to moving the way she was, even cantering around some in the field now. 

I guess I freak out, always afraid of the worst. So the vet is planning to come in a week or so to give steroid injections to see if that will help her feel pretty good in the pasture. 

I don't believe in psychic connections, but every time I say the words out loud that I'm wondering about Halla (and we've been there a few times...I swear that horse likes to poke death in the eye), she perks right up and gives me this look; "Don't be stupid, I'm not ready to go yet." 




 
Went for a lovely ride on Brave tonight. Met two new horses, Jaeger (Percheron/Paint) and Liza (Arab). Liza was ponied...it was her first time out in a year. They had a tragedy where a neighbor was feeding horses fruit at night over a fence and one horse died. Liza had bad laminitis but her last xrays were good so she is able to go out again. She looks so tiny but is probably Amore's size. The other horses are all big except Brave. You
might recognize Nala, Cass and Cash is the big Paint.

That Jaeger and Liza's owner is a good horseman was obvious in a few sentences. 
I said, "He's going in a bitless, so he must be a good boy." 
"Well, sometimes, except for when he bolts off." 
Later, talking about his horse: "We have an understanding." It's easy to tell a fellow horseman. Plus he said the word "Arab" with affection in his tone.


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## Hondo

I was taught early on if a horse paws the water to move'em out 'cause they're gonna roll. Don't know if it's always true, but I do just in case. Once when Hondo was pawing the dry soft sand I wondered why he was doing that. Seconds later I quickly stepped off him and started pulling his head up before he went over.

I remember asking, "You mean they'll roll with a rider on?" Answer: "Sure, they just say c'mon it'll be fun!"

Good news on Valhalla!


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## Fimargue

Beautiful thoughts. So happy to hear Halla is doing better! :loveshower: There is nothing more cuter than an Arabian rolling - ok, couple other things, but this goes to top five at least. I also love it how Amore put some serious thought for the perfect rolling place lol.

I think Halla must be Tali's distant relative, so similar - amazing tail included.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I was taught early on if a horse paws the water to move'em out 'cause they're gonna roll. Don't know if it's always true, but I do just in case. Once when Hondo was pawing the dry soft sand I wondered why he was doing that. Seconds later I quickly stepped off him and started pulling his head up before he went over.
> 
> I remember asking, "You mean they'll roll with a rider on?" Answer: "Sure, they just say c'mon it'll be fun!"


Nala's rider and I were calling to Jaeger's rider - "Careful, he's going to go down!" He kept booting him but I think if Jaeger wanted to he would have dropped. But they have an understanding, so perhaps not. 
Cass' rider just smiled at us. She knew that her big horse is in the palm of her hand and won't try anything. She'll keep a handle on two horses at once.

But the funny little Arab, Liza. If you could have seen her attitude. Here she was, so tiny and delicate looking among the draft crosses. But everything about her was saying she was the most important horse in the world. 








No one could have stopped her from going down in the water if she wanted to.
They switched off ponying her halfway through the ride because she was pestering Jaeger so much that he was getting quite annoyed. Biting his face and all. They are stablemates.

The funniest thing that Brave does so far is run away from his wet tail. Several times on our ride he did a fast little spurt forward - either because Jaeger tripped and he thought maybe all the horses were bolting off, or because a car came up fast behind us, or because Cash took off trotting. But each time he'd take that little run, and then as he began to stop again, his tail would catch up with the action, swoosh forward and wrap around his legs, and then he'd _really_ lurch forward. Each time it surprised me a little, because the feeling was a slight nervousness, then beginning to settle, then "Yikes!" Take off again. 

Yet it's funny, because my settling techniques don't work on Brave. I tend to direct the forward motion I assume is going to continue at full speed around into a circle. So I'm starting to bend him but I don't push him forward because the reactive types have tons of drive forward and would flip around way too fast. Then, he fizzles out. So we're standing in this awkward half sideways position because I wanted to redirect his energy, but it only lasted five seconds and now the energy is gone. We've never yet made it to a complete half circle after a spook. 

He has not yet learned (although his breeder was trying to get the genetically perfect endurance horse) that he can trot for a long distance, and especially with a rider on his back. We trotted for just several minutes and then I was having to encourage him to keep going, and every time another horse took a different step he was like, "Are we walking now?" and would immediately slow. I highly doubt he will ever have bolting issues, but you never know.

Anyone who watches the video might think I have a double standard, since I've talked so much about bit contact yet it might appear I am riding with contact on this green horse. What he is going in is a very fat, double jointed D ring snaffle. A quite gentle bit. My hold on the reins is such that if he moves his head in any direction, the reins slip right through. You can see this when he puts his head down to scratch, that he feels free to move his head in any way he wants.

So he is not being asked to move into bit pressure, but my feel is only so I can help him be straight. When I want him to follow a different track, I pull back on the rein in the direction I want him to move, and if that does not get an immediate tilt of the head/neck, I pull the rein out slightly to the side. Hopefully this adds the pushing pressure from the opposite side of the D ring on his face, and also I add indirect rein pressure on that opposite side too. Plus I'm adding weight, seat and leg cues so he can learn what all those mean too.

Something I am purposefully not doing is making him bend and get all rubbery through the neck. It feels to me like I'm getting enough bend from side to side and downward when I ask for it, but I'd rather have him a little bit less rubbery as he learns to follow his head rather than creating a horse that does not know how to follow his head and neck. Much safer if he does bolt off, I'd rather move him gradually into a happier direction than have him bend his head around to stare me in the face as he's running blindly. I don't like being on a horse that cannot bend. But slightly more I don't like being on a horse that does not follow his head with his body. At least the non-bendy horse can see where he is going and not fall.


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## gottatrot

This is a deep hole Cass fell into in the ocean. It was low tide, and we were not even out into the waves, but the turbulence created these big holes you couldn't see well from above due to the glare and reflection on the water.
Nala is leading me on Brave and we are getting out of there. I did not want to fall and roll a horse in the ocean. That hole would have been above my waist on Brave, because Cass is much bigger.









I like this pic because it looks like Brave and I are balancing nicely together. That's tricky, and I've been quite out of sync on some newly started horses as they struggled to achieve balance with a rider. 









It's good to see how nicely Brave is stepping up over this log.









And tracking up here...









Here too, he's walking with his hind end nicely following his front end. I've been on some freshly started horses that wove and wobbled all over the place.


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## gottatrot

Kind of excited...the timing is strange since my horses are both retired, but I'm buying my towing vehicle tomorrow. I've mentioned previously on my journal that getting a truck/trailer was something I kept considering. We've looked at trucks throughout this year, but saw many that had issues.

My mom's neighbor is in his 80s, sold his RV and has an '09 Chevy Silverado 2500 with 40,000 miles on it. Kept it in great shape, used it lightly and what's very unusual for here is that he always kept it in the garage. Great deal, under blue book and we brought it in for a "pre purchase exam" today. Our mechanic thought we shouldn't pass it up. 

Money for the animals, food, vet bills, tack - it tends to flow like water. But my current car has a cassette player rather than a CD player and all I've ever asked from a vehicle is that it starts up when I put a key in the ignition. I'm going to really like having a nice truck though, and it will be great when it comes time to get a new horse that I can go and pick it up myself. After we were done driving the truck today I didn't really want to leave it behind until tomorrow.

We hadn't driven big trucks under 10 years old, and were surprised at how well the truck handled, like a car. Reading reviews, you'd think your body would be thrown all over the cab and you'd be shouting to make each other heard. Guess if you've been driving an old car that literally rattles along and squeals as it spews oil, a newer truck seems pretty smooth and quiet inside. 

I think one secret to being content is putting up with stuff for way too long that most people wouldn't tolerate. If your horse leaps around a lot and tries to run off, or spooks constantly, it is quite incredible to get on a horse that just goes along nicely. If you drive an old car way too long, you're amazed at all the "new" technology. It tells the temperature! It has a CD player! A/C rather than windows rolled down! Pretty great stuff.


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## weeedlady

A new truck! that's great and pretty exciting for you Congratulations!!!


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## gottatrot

The vet is coming Monday to give Halla joint injections. I'll be very glad for her advice. Today Halla was acting strange, very subdued. Nala was out on a ride, Amore came to say hi to me and get scratched, then took off. That's usually Halla too. But she kept leaning her head on me and then looking me in the eye. I'd scratch her and then move away after a couple minutes so I could see how she was standing and walking. But she kept coming back and standing right up against me. 

Amore has also started taking over the herd boss attitude, which also doesn't seem good to me. Halla has always been the boss, but now Amore is taking responsibility for driving Nala away from the shed or prime space, etc. My firecracker is not herself. Oddly, if this is chronic pain, it is affecting her differently than pain from ulcers did. That wired her up and made her aggressive. And the weakness from the Vitamin E deficiency made her skittish and nervous. 

****************************************************************************************
OT: Rat Report

I'm fairly certain I'm going to have to release my wild rats this week. I'd really like to keep them, but I'm not sure it is best anymore. At 3 months old, they will grow for several more months but are young adults. As they've aged, they've become a lot more wild. I acknowledge they are wild animals, and there is no way to tame them. As babies, they were docile, now they are wild and fierce. I want what is best for animals, and it would not be kind to keep them in a cage all the time. However, that is probably my only real option since as the rats get wilder and smarter, I am having daily more difficulty getting them into an area to exercise and back in the cage. Last night I spent 1 and 1/2 hours catching them. They are quite amazing, can leap in the air, ping off your head and fly in another direction. They keep learning, so maybe you could trap them in one corner once, but the next time you won't be able to. 

I'll try to feel good about giving them a good start in life rather than worrying about predators torturing them. For sure they should be hard to catch. I don't think the neutered male will be too docile either, since he fluffs up his fur if you get him in a corner and lunges at you. Can't take it personally, they just don't adjust to predators, even ones that save their lives and feed them.

I'm trying to decide between one of two areas to set them free: a wildlife sanctuary near a river, or by a lake that is in a state park. Both have woods and brush for shelter. I'd like to think I neither have romantic notions of returning animals to the wild (lots of predators and danger out there), nor unrealistic expectations of keeping wild animals as pets. I've tried to be open to it turning out either way, but of course it will be hard to see them go.
I'd like to have a couple domesticated rats as consolation, we'll see what the DH thinks about that. 
****************************************************************************************

Nala's owner wants me to look at a horse nearby. Black, tall, TB gelding, 7 years old, free. Was sold but returned due to "not being trained enough." Sounds so tempting to look at...could be just my cup of tea...why can't I be independently wealthy? I cannot afford three horses...I cannot afford three horses...


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## Hondo

Your rats turning wild reminds me of what Temple Grandin said about dogs and wolves. She said there is a part of the brain in puppy wolves that matures when they become wild and that part of the brain does not mature in dogs and that dogs are basically immature wolves. So dogs remain as puppies all their adult lives.

So if the rats are wild they are wild and not much can be done to change that. Did not know there was a strain of domesticated rats. My oldest son had a gerbil when he was young. Maybe they don't have the wild part of the brain?

Hondo varies in his desires to be around and/or near me. I'm beginning to suspect it relates to something going of inside me. Horses are such incredible animals. I have the entire herd of about 17 horses in my field now for a few weeks to eat down some of the over grown grass from so much rain. It'll be fun being able to spend more time observing their behavior as I've not been around them much for the last year. Particularly want to see if Dragon buddies up with anyone or stays around Hondo.

End.


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## gottatrot

Very interesting information about the brain in wild animals. That's what it seems like to me; it's something built in. 

Finally was able to get the vet out to see Halla and get the joint injections. Every time I have a vet visit I am grateful to have their expertise to help with things. What seems murky and confusing to me often is very clear to them. 

For one thing, I've been trying to see if the bad knee behaves oddly as Halla puts it down. I took video and used slow motion, and then I could see how it hangs up a bit. 
The vet with her trained eye just looked at her walking for a minute and said she could see the motion was restricted and also there was a mechanical impingement. 

I like the vet, she's not very verbal and just kind of listens while I express my worries and all the things I've observed. Then she calmly tells me what she thinks but it's very factual, not touchy feely. That works well for me.

We're focusing on comfort care, but she thinks we can tone down the ups and downs Halla is having. That would be good for me since it's rough seeing her look bad one day and then fine the next. The vet thinks there is a good chance the injections will keep her joints from being as reactive to the colder weather coming and she could achieve a pretty good comfort level. Otherwise, she said Equioxx (pain pill) might actually work well too. 

Today Halla was running around with Nala a bit. Yesterday she got stuck in her hay net with the bad knee and couldn't bend it enough to get it out so the person who found her had to cut her out. Highs and lows. I told the vet I was doing much better with Amore's aging process since it was gradual and I could tell she was feeling fine. I know that is my own issue I have to deal with, but it seemed helpful to express it to a professional. 
Probably any comfort measures will be as helpful for me as for Halla.

The vet thinks Amore looks great. I tied her to a horse trailer near where the vet wanted Halla to stand so it would help Halla feel calm. Amore was looking all "agro" about being tied where she couldn't reach the grass. She waited fine, but her expression was quite peeved.

Nala's rider really wants to go look at the free 7 year old OTTB with me. I've messaged my friends down the coast because I realized they just had to put down their TB that had Wobbler's. It could be they might want to go look at him with us. The owner contacted me and asked if I was interested. 

As tempting as it is to think I could swing the board for awhile, knowing Halla may only have months to a year or two left, I know I'll do the responsible thing, which is make sure I have plenty of resources to help out the animals I already have. Sure is tempting to collect animals, I have to say. It's honestly one reason why I buy expensive cat and dog food, to make sure I feel that I can't afford too many pets.


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## horseluvr2524

The TB sounds wonderful. I would also be so tempted. Perhaps a co-ownership with one of your friends is possible? Does sound a little fishy to me though, him being free just because he isn't trained well. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is...

Prayers for you as you endure the aging of your friends. It's a difficult thing to go through. Sometimes I look at the years flying by and can't believe that my Shan is going to be 14 years old. Doesn't seem old at all to most of you I'm sure, but I've had her since she was 5, so it is a bit daunting.

P.S. We are currently still in a limbo of sorts. I will update the other thread this coming weekend when I know more.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> The TB sounds wonderful. I would also be so tempted. Perhaps a co-ownership with one of your friends is possible? Does sound a little fishy to me though, him being free just because he isn't trained well. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is...
> 
> Prayers for you as you endure the aging of your friends. It's a difficult thing to go through. Sometimes I look at the years flying by and can't believe that my Shan is going to be 14 years old. Doesn't seem old at all to most of you I'm sure, but I've had her since she was 5, so it is a bit daunting.


Glad to hear you've found a place to live. Your mom's situation sounds terrible, but she's going to have to decide that for herself, I guess. 

Halla was 13 when I got her, so Shan seems young to me! Ideally, I'd wanted Halla to be going strong at closer to 30, but age is just a number with both horses and humans.

My friends are not interested in another TB right now...they've had three cheap and free older TB or TB crosses recently that ended up either with expensive health issues or being put down. So my friend said they want to take a short break from hemorrhaging money on their animals (they've had some dog surgery this year too), and then she wants to find a super healthy, super sound 4 year old to train herself. Makes good sense to me.

I can't tell any difference yet with Halla's knee injections. She's still moving stiffly, but seems to be roaming all around the pasture grazing with Amore and Nala, so maybe they feel better even if she looks stiff. She seemed quite contented today.

It was quite difficult yesterday, I released my little rats. I was thinking it was like sending the kids off to college, except they went from bottle to adulthood in 3 months, and college could potentially involve getting literally killed by predators. Probably parents would resent my comparison. 

However, I knew in my heart it was the right thing to do. Not emotionally, because that hurt and I shed a couple tears, but logically. The habitat they went into was so much better than anything I could create, with deep underbrush, tall mossy trees, and a beautiful lake several feet away. Truly wild. There were squirrels calling in the distance, and I've read that squirrels have very similar dietary and habitat needs to roof rats, so that seemed good. They walked cautiously around at first, and Ruby climbed 8 feet up a tree within a couple minutes. Then they blended in, perfectly camouflaged and just fading away into the brush. Temperatures in the 70s today and yesterday, so nice weather to adapt to being outside.

We're taking off on a two week trip Saturday to the midwest. Seeing some family for a couple days, then we're going to check off the final states we haven't been to in the lower 48. I just have Michigan left, and my DH has several including Wisconsin, North Dakota and Michigan. So we're going to see some fall foliage and interesting sites. 

Not a lot of horse related things planned, but we're going to rent a horse carriage to drive around Mackinac Island, and I'm going to go to a Dover tack store in Pennsylvania.


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## egrogan

Have fun on your trip! Are you and your husband beer drinkers? Michigan is heaven for craft beer nerds  It's the thing I miss most about not living there any more. Would be happy to share recommendations of good places to eat or have a drink.


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> Have fun on your trip! Are you and your husband beer drinkers? Michigan is heaven for craft beer nerds  It's the thing I miss most about not living there any more. Would be happy to share recommendations of good places to eat or have a drink.


Happy horse shopping today!

We live where beer is very popular too, but neither of us like it. That's considered "uncool," but oh well. :grin:
If you like beer, you should visit Portland, OR sometime.
But I'd love to hear of any places you recommend to eat.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> Happy horse shopping today!
> 
> We live where beer is very popular too, but neither of us like it. That's considered "uncool," but oh well. :grin:
> If you like beer, you should visit Portland, OR sometime.
> But I'd love to hear of any places you recommend to eat.


Ha, I understand! I really dislike wine which always makes for awkward conversations at fancy dinners with work colleagues when they're ordering tons of wine and I ask for the beer list :redface:

Are you going through Ann Arbor, Lansing, or Detroit? I can give you my recommendations in those places.


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## knightrider

Checked out "Yoga with Adrienne"--there are so many of them! Which ones do you like the best? My daughter and I did the one for sore wrists because her wrist bothers her, but she said it made her wrist hurt more. I've done the "losing weight" one, the morning one, and started on the 30 day one. I've tried the short evening one twice. Which one has helped you the most? I am overwhelmed by all the choices!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'm going to go to a Dover tack store in Pennsylvania.


What part(s) of PA will you be visiting?


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> Are you going through Ann Arbor, Lansing, or Detroit? I can give you my recommendations in those places.


We didn't actually hit up any of those places, mostly the new food we tried related to Chicago with the deep dish pizza and their odd (to us) hot dogs with tomato, onions and peppers added.

@phantomhorse, I guess I didn't realize you were in PA...? Are you very far from Pittsburgh? My DH has family there which is why we've been over there several times. Maybe next time I'll ask you about getting together for a ride, if you have an extra horse available.

Our trip was great. Not a whole lot of horse stuff, more scenery, seeing 4 of the great lakes, some parks and city architecture in Chicago. 

Two things we did that were horse-related:
I visited the Dover store in Pittsburgh, and tried not to spend too much. Thankfully we were traveling with carry on only so I only got a halter, a jumping noseband, some riding gloves and small items. 








We also had a lot of fun driving a Percheron around Mackinac island for a couple hours.
























Our horse was named Judy. The horses basically drive themselves but you have to tell about your horse experience so they can decide what horse to give you. Since I'd driven quite a bit, the manager decided to give us Judy.

You can decide what route you want to take, but apparently many of the horses will just take inexperienced people on the shortest loop. We wanted to go on the larger loop to see more scenery. At first, Judy was a little confused because I talked to her and had her trot at various times instead of just walking. The first couple of times I asked her to do things she paid no attention, and we realized that almost all the staff at the livery were men so she might not have been as used to a female driver recently. 

Once Judy realized I was making her do things, she began to pay attention. We stopped and rested once, and then when we came to where she would automatically take the shortest way home, I asked her to turn on the longer route. She reluctantly turned off, and then walked super slow for a few steps, really wishing we'd gone the shorter route. Then she whinnied super loudly, and started on the new route. 

That was all fine, and she got into work mode again. But looking at the map, we made a mistake and thought we needed to make another turn off. This time Judy balked hard, and wanted to back up, but I drove her on and she turned again. She started acting very excited, and wanted to trot up the steep hill ahead. I got her in hand again, and soon we realized she was upset because we were off the route altogether. I'd thought she just wanted to take a short cut. We ended up at a fort that was on the highest part of the island. 

After we circled back down and got back on the regular driving route, Judy relaxed quite a bit. It was interesting to only see horses, buggies and bicycles wherever we went. When we got back to the stables, I told them we'd taken the wrong route. They said Judy used to drive up to that fort doing private tours when she was younger, but hadn't been up there in a long time.
I hoped it wasn't too hard on her hocks, going down the steep hill but she seemed to handle it OK at the time. 









It was good to be home and see the horses last night and the other animals. I think possibly Halla is moving better, so I'll need to evaluate that better but perhaps the steroid injections are doing something for her. That would be great.


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## weeedlady

Thanks for sharing @gottatrot I cross the Mackinac Bridge and back at least 6 times a year heading to our place UP North, but I've never been to the island. It's a bucket list item.


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## phantomhorse13

What a fun way to spend an afternoon. I have heard about that island but never been there - added it to the must-see list for sure now.

I am in PA, though in north-central heading for NE Pa.. a bit over 4 hours from Pittsburgh.


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, which Yoga by Adrienne do you find most helpful? There are so many!


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## gottatrot

I think you might be thinking of someone else doing that yoga? I was talking about stretches on @bsms' thread, and mentioned that I tried yoga but have never really done it. It might have been @PhantomHorse?


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## phantomhorse13

I was the one talking about yoga on the other thread, but I watch a random dvd with a male instructor.. so pretty sure its not Yoga by Adrienne. Not sure if I still have the cover to be able to tell you who it is or not. 

Now, of course, I am going to have to look up Adrienne and see what I am missing!


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## knightrider

@phantomhorse13, you are right. It was AcadianArtist who recommended Yoga with Adriene. She has about 25 videos that you can choose, for all kinds of different reasons from broken hearts to sore wrists. She even has one to use for disasters. I like yoga.


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## phantomhorse13

knightrider said:


> It was AcadianArtist who recommended Yoga with Adriene. She has about 25 videos that you can choose, for all kinds of different reasons from broken hearts to sore wrists. She even has one to use for disasters. I like yoga.


Yoga for disasters.. disaster yoga sounds more like me trying to do yoga. :rofl:


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## gottatrot

Since this is a journal, I'll share about my recent struggle.

It was good timing for me to take a vacation and get away for a couple weeks, because taking that mental break gave me some insights.

For awhile, I was caught up in worrying about Halla and whether she was declining quickly, and if she could be made comfortable. But I realize that once that initial stress was over, I'd begun feeling just plain old sorry for myself. 

Looking at my horses these past few days, I see such good things. 
Thanks to modern medicine, Amore is trotting around the field spryly and enjoying life instead of growing a coat eight inches long and fulminating abscesses every month from the Cushing's eroding her immune system.

Halla is moving like an old horse, carefully stepping over things and a little stiff, but not limping, gimping or obviously in pain. Both horses are bright-eyed, shiny, and apparently happy.

But you see, somehow I always thought things were going to work out with impeccable timing. Amore is five years older than Halla. So she was going to hit about 30, and then it was going to seem as though she was ready to retire. Then I was going to ride Halla gently for the next five years until she was 30, and Amore was probably going to be gone by then. So I'd retire Halla and get a young horse.

Somehow I noticed the horses that people were riding until about 30, and didn't notice how many actually had to retire at 20 or even sooner. I didn't notice how many of these horses had long years after their riding lives were over. I wasn't planning that both my horses would be retired by the time Amore was 26.

So there I was, feeling sorry for myself. Why was this my lot, when I'm such a serious horse person and avid rider? 

Honestly, although I told myself I'd do other things with my horses if they retired from riding, they're not up for it. All that about keeping them active and moving; with their daily turnout they don't really appreciate long walks, and they're perfectly contented with me visiting them in the field or pen. I think the busy brain of a young horse that needs to go places gets replaced by a contented one when a horse is physically old. They don't care about exploring when I try to take them out, but more about going to their familiar places. Not in a herd/bound way, but in a comfort way. I've seen the variations of this, and it's different for them now.

So. They need grooming and blanketing and hoof care and health checks. They don't need exercise, mental stimulation or training. 

But I need exercise, mental stimulation and training. I'm a youngster. 
It gave me a little pause, to see that the training I've helped with on Brave and the training his owner did on Cass has reached the point where she now can put her husband on Cass (the original reason she got him) and she can ride Brave, and they've been going out together. 

But I've stopped feeling sorry for myself. 

It wasn't helping to say "it's not about me." I was thinking I was supposed to realize my horses had not just been given to me because I didn't give up and rode and trained them through all their difficulties, but also because they need a long period of special care in their old age. And be happy they found a good home with me.

But that's only part of it. I've entered a different phase, and it's one where I'm going to be riding other peoples' horses and not my own horse I can do whatever I want with. It took me a little while to wrap my mind around that, and to think of it the right way. 

It's not going back to the days where I was still yearning for my own horse while taking lessons or bumming the occasional ride. My husband reminded me (not trying to convince me to feel better, but just supporting my thoughts) that once I would have given anything just to be around horses on a daily basis, riding or no riding.

I'm thinking about the many serious riders who for one reason or another don't have a horse of their own and are riding others' horses. I'm realizing that I can use my creativity and resources to get myself weekly rides, and it's OK to pursue my riding rather than just sitting and watching my old horses graze. 

This has cheered me up and made me see this as just a phase in my riding life, even if it lasts for several years or more. 

I'll be able to ride Nala when her rider doesn't have time, Brave and Cass when their owner's husband is working. Brave's owner says he need work on cantering, so she needs me to go out sometime and help her with that when her husband is not riding (he is a novice). 

A few months ago I had started working with Sizzler, a TB at our barn. Then he got injured, and right after that a teen girl had begun riding him. Now the teen has a job and less time, and his owner is happy to hear I am interested in riding him. So he might be my new project for awhile. 

I've also thought of friends who might let me borrow a horse to ride over the winter, and I have a reliable vehicle now to visit other friends for rides. 

It will be all be good for me. The other night, the barn owner forgot to latch her horse's field gate and I was at the barn late, after dark when I heard galloping hooves. The gate had opened, and her horse had realized he was loose and galloped down the hill. In the dark I caught the gelding and he was all excited, but quite relieved I was taking charge and bringing him back to his safe enclosure. 

As I led him up the hill, he pranced and yet I was completely comfortable, feeling his mood and that he acknowledged my hand on the lead and outstretched arm on his neck to keep his hooves away from myself in the dark. 

It made me realize that I was a horseman, deep in my bones. Not just when I had a horse of my own to ride, and not as something that was going to slip away if I didn't hold onto it with both hands, or keep my body remembering the nuances of riding a difficult horse. 

It goes beyond muscle memory, or neurons, and I don't think it is something I can lose, having cultivated the understanding and feel of horses for so long. They're too important to me, and I don't think I have to worry about losing my touch or my skills even if I were locked inside for the next twenty years. When I got out, I would still feel the horses, and be open to what they can teach me. 

So I am smiling again. Ready to face the new challenges ahead.


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## egrogan

This is beautiful, @*gottatrot* . While my journey is a little different than yours, I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. Over the past year as Izzy has struggled and slowed a little, I felt sorry for myself a lot too. I feel very fortunate that I'm in a place where acquiring a second riding horse is an option for me right now, but if it wasn't, I'd probably have figured something else out to make sure she continued to get what she needed. Though I am nowhere near the rider you are and not sure how many people would have turned over their horses to let me ride! :wink:

I've experienced such an interesting range of reactions when people have heard I was getting a new horse. First, I could see that anxious worry in their eyes when they tried to casually ask me, "so what will you do with Izzy?" But then once they were assured I wasn't sending her to an auction or something like that, they were able to hear me explain that I really truly believe she won't mind being mostly retired from riding one bit. Yes, she is "only" 23, and that's young for Morgans. I could probably push her through a few more years and try to take some dressage lessons to get her moving better and work on her weak topline. But she hates arena riding, she hates lessons, and I would need that to really change her way of going because I'm not skilled enough. I can't wait to just watch her get to hang out in the field eating grass all day and being bossy towards the other horses. 

Anyway, not sure if any of that makes sense, but I'm glad you're looking ahead to what comes next as an adventure, and I have no doubt that when you're ready for your next personal horse, you'll find one that works for you!


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## horseluvr2524

Wow! Mackinac Island looks amazing! I never dreamed there would be places that would hire out a carriage you can drive yourself. Awesome! I love driving horses, hope I can do something like that too someday.

I'm sure you will always find horses to ride as well. You are such a good rider, I'm sure that with a bit of time to let word get around, you will have horse rides coming out your ears lol. Just face every obstacle and challenge with the thought "how can this make me a better horseman, or a better person in general?". I've had to do this myself often as of late.


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## gottatrot

I took my new friend, Sizzler out yesterday. First I had to convince someone to go out with me, since the rain had been coming down for two days straight. But the forecast said there might be a break between 1 and 4. So Nala's rider decided to come after her work at 3:30.

The last time I'd worked with Sizz a few months ago, he'd had pretty bad separation anxiety. A teen girl has supposedly been riding him so I hoped that had improved. While waiting
for Nala's rider to arrive, I saddled Sizz and decided to do a little warm up. Knowing about his anxiety, I saddled him in his field so he didn't have to leave his herd mates. That went well, so I took him out. 

Hopefully I can have a nice talk with the teen soon. She's created a couple new issues trying to deal with the separation anxiety. Sizz wouldn't stand for mounting, but circled around. Once I got on, he backed up a few steps quickly. I rode him along the fence line, where he would be able to see his friends. 

Sizz quickly became anxious, tried to stall out, and then back up. I'm pretty sure I know what has been happening. The teen does not have a good seat, is probably anxious about the behavior, and either punishing it, or else avoiding things that might make Sizz hop around or do something that would unseat her. I can almost guarantee she is making him back up, which is one correction I disagree with completely. 

Having dealt with a lot of separation issues, I know a few things. One is that it's something that goes away gradually by making the horse feel comfortable and safe. I know that punishing a horse will make it worse, and so will flooding. I've spent way too much time facing things head on with horses, and know that's the long and hard road. 

I decided to do a very short lesson to let Sizz know how things were going to go. When he stalled out, it was obvious he was a TB with all the movement in his mind and was not going to be still for long. So I just pointed his head forward. I didn't put any pressure on, just told him with my seat that forward was the way. He tried backing, backed into the electric fence, hopped around, and then went forward. I praised him effusively, and when he stalled out again I made my voice harsher and told him that was not right. He didn't react as though my voice was punishment, and I did not try to force him forward, just blocked his departure.

Once he was going forward willingly, I immediately turned him around and rode back to his safe zone. We did this several times, in a couple different directions. The third time he only paused, I told him to keep going, and then once he started forward immediately turned, rode him back to his field, hopped off and let him graze.

It was not raining at all when Nala's rider arrived. We took the two horses down to the beach. Sizz both led and followed Nala, which was great. Once we had another horse there, he did not show much worry about leaving his field. That makes things much easier, that he's not anxious about leaving just one horse in particular. It should be easy to work on taking him out with others, getting him used to the environment, and then bringing him out alone once he's confident.

I didn't know if he'd ever been down to the beach. At the very least it's been a long time. Probably years. He is not spooky. He couldn't figure out how to get down the last part of the dune and got stuck, so Nala had to come and show him one more time how to step through the grass bunches and deep sand.

Sizz worried a little about a car, but he seems to be one of those "flash calm" horses. That's what I call them. They get upset in a second, and calm in a second. He remained a little excited, but not upset, and we trotted and cantered a half mile until he sweated. His canter was sweet and far too lifted. He'll learn to be more efficient with more miles, I am sure. He didn't feel racey, although he did want to keep an eye on Nala. I told her rider not to leave me until we have ridden more.

At the barn, Sizz cantered around his field a few times, so we did not wear him out apparently. His eye was bright and I feel certain he will soon enjoy going out very much. I'm not sure if he's had an english saddle or snaffle on since his days on the track, and he's 18. But he certainly remembered those things.

It's very odd, but Sizz darted backward, hunched, half reared, shook, and leaped forward throughout the course of the day. This all was completely within my comfort zone. I was talking about this to Nala's rider, and explaining that I could _feel_ Sizz, and regardless of whether he bolted for home I felt like I'd be able to discern his intentions and his mind. 

Yet Brave, the other horse I've been riding lately has only done a thing or two with me that I could barely call challenging, but I feel so much less comfortable on him. He has a different mind, and a very different feel, and it's so different from most horses I've ridden. I can't feel what he's going to do. Which is basically nothing. He doesn't have the drive or the anxiety, but yet it makes me uncomfortable because I can't feel what he is planning to do. 
I've very rarely met a horse with a mind like this, so it interests me. I'd like to learn how to get a feel for that kind of horse too.


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## Hondo

Good lesson.


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## horseluvr2524

I'd love to put you up on Shan someday. I think it would be so interesting for everyone-Shan, you, and me. She is such a smart little ******. There is something addictive about riding her. It's kind of like playing a game of chess at first as she tests you, and you have to work at figuring out how to get on the same team.

Sizzler sounds fun. I'll admit that I enjoy lifted, animated gaits at times. I bet he does that because he is not used to moving through deep sand.


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## gottatrot

The day after our ride, I checked on Sizzler and noted that his back was a little sore. That was disappointing, I'd really thought his saddle fit fairly well. Two days later, I checked his back again and it was even _more_ sore. After assessing him more, I saw that he had a few white hairs along the withers, and minor small pockets of muscle atrophy. So I notified his owner these things were most likely not from my single ride, but perhaps his back was sore due to being ridden a few times by the teen in a different (western) saddle that didn't fit.

It turns out the teen hadn't ridden Sizzler in a couple weeks, so that didn't sound great...why was he that sore after a single ride in a saddle that fit at least decently well? 
The daily muscle massaging loosened up his back until I could pinpoint that he had a specific sore spot on the right side quite far back. Farther back than a saddle fits and on one side. That seemed more suspicious for an injury such as a fall in the field or banging into something. 

Sizzler's owner and I both have been doing back massages on him, and today was the first day I had to really push hard to induce any kind of response, even in that sore spot. All the rest of his back seemed good. This is all looking hopeful that this was a minor injury and nothing too bad. 

It crosses the mind that the first time after giving a horse a little bit of work, when he comes up seriously back sore, that he might have some bad issue like kissing spines or back arthritis. But honestly, I think he handled the work with too good of an attitude for that type of pain, and my guess is this was a minor muscle problem that occurred near the time of the ride.

Sizzler's owner says he is a sensitive guy, but he strikes me as rather mellow when things are going fine. I think she thought at first I was describing his back soreness as something like a reaction to a hard brush, but I've been around enough thin-skinned horses to not walk up to a horse and throw a hard brush on and consider it a reactive back. But at the worst, he was dropping his entire back to a light pressure along the spine. 

One thing I'm considering is that people with soft tissue problems can often end up with a recurring muscle spasm that can go on and on even for months. It would be nice if this issue was actually bothering him for awhile, and relieving it helped the separation anxiety. Something I've seen is that horses having pain can have a sudden onset of separation anxiety, or a mild case can suddenly be pretty bad. I think it's instinct to feel a stronger need to stay with the herd when having pain or not feeling 100% healthy.

I may try an easy ride tomorrow in a saddle with soft panels and lots of padding. 

Before my trip, I mentioned that Nala's rider wanted me to go look at a free TB. Well, she's kept thinking about it a lot, sent me pictures and asked again if I could go check him out. Turns out she has been thinking of a second horse for friends to go out with her on. The owner sent pictures, so we drove about 45 minutes to go see him today.

The owner had approached Nala's rider after seeing them at a local arena-trail-obstacle day and said she saw she was riding a TB and did she know of anyone looking for a free, sound TB? 

This is Rascal.
















From the pictures, I had a couple of concerns, namely a possible "hunter's bump" on the croup, a downhill build, and poor topline.

In person, we saw there is no hunter's bump, he just is slightly butt high and his topline is not bad. Shadows in pictures can be deceiving. My concern with him in person was that on the initial walk out he lightly dragged his hind toes a bit, and that one front hoof toed out slightly. 

The owner was completely honest, and is an acquaintance I boarded with in the past. A good person. She got him as a rescue shortly after coming off track at 4. She has rehomed him three times, and had him returned. Each time the person was told he was completely green, but not spooky and calm. Each time the person returned him after a period for not being broke enough. This did not include bucking, rearing, or anything truly bad. He is very sweet, calm and green. I wondered how they expected him to become trained if neither they nor anyone else actually trained him.

We turned Rascal out in the arena, and he bucked, farted, kicked the wall, jumped around. Neither Nala's rider nor I were concerned. I've seen horses do the most insane things that immediately after were completely calm and obedient. He didn't appear hot, despite the antics. We could see that he was sound, did not drag his toes once moving and I've both heard and seen that young horses that are very out of shape can drag toes due to lack of muscle and lax tendons.

The owner had not been on Rascal in months and said he wore a saddle and took a rider fine. We put a dressage saddle on him and tried three snaffles before we found that he liked a rubber full cheek best. He behaved like he'd never had a snaffle in, although we knew he had. 

I got on first, and he did not want to move into the bit that was loosely in his mouth. Nala's rider provided incentive to move from the ground, but Rascal did not know what leg meant and kept his head down near the ground as he worked the bit. I tried pulling his head up a bit, then trying to get him to relax and move forward without putting his head so low. We joked about how people paid to get these peanut rollers and how could anyone say he was untrained?

After a bit, we got him moving and trotting around. I didn't want to exhaust him, because after three laps around the arena he was breathing harder than Nala does after galloping a mile flat out. So Nala's rider got on and took him around, and he even fell into a canter for a bit and didn't crow hop or anything. His trot felt smooth and he started keeping his head up and moving forward. His owner was encouraged to see us actually riding him and Rascal wasn't frustrated whatsoever, just interested. 
After we got off, he came over and stood by the gate near us instead of going off to roll or see his buddies on the other side.

When we got back to our barn, Nala's rider asked our barn owner about Rascal. She's told me that she thought we have a good number right now, and didn't want more horses...well, there is an empty shed and corral for night turn-in and she was quick to say he'd be welcome to come. His owner said she'd haul him over any time. So Nala's rider is making the decision, but I think she'll be getting Rascal.

My job will be to ride him out with Nala for several months at least to get him past baby green. We suspect he will be a nice friend/boyfriend/husband horse once he's going. 
It sure hasn't taken me long to go from being "horseless" with two old retired mares to having two TBs I need to keep exercised. Hmm. Guess horse people just attract horses into their lives.


----------



## gottatrot

Nala's rider is taking on Rascal for a month trial and he's coming tomorrow. It's very nice of the owner, she really wants him to find a good home so she's allowing a thirty day trial of a free horse. 

I rode Sizz on the beach yesterday, and that was something else. 

Down to the beach went well. We took out Nala plus the three year old mare Sizz is normally turned out with (I don't agree with riding so young, but she's been under saddle for a year). She is very green but has actually had a couple months of good training with a serious horseman. She is also a very mellow draft cross.

Nala cantered off, and Penny the youngster followed. Sizz picked up a nice, gentle canter and all seemed well. We were planning to meet another horse and rider in a mile, someone none of us have met. So I slowed and asked Penny's rider if we could stay together, in case the new horse was hot. Since Nala is never going to be a calm, role model type, I figured this might end up with at least two of the horses galloping off.

Penny's rider said sure, but a minute later turned her horse and rode into the waves. This panicked Sizz. I'm not sure what he thought, but he seemed to think Penny was getting killed. 

I hollered, "I'm not sure if Sizz is going to handle having Penny in the ocean today!" 
Penny's rider looked puzzled. That was when I remembered this rider has no concept of riding to help others. She's not a bad rider, and not unkind or anything. She just has never ridden a truly difficult horse, and doesn't understand how to help another rider. 
So I realized it might be worse having Sizz's pasture mate along, since she was going to be a big distraction. 

By the time we met up with the other rider, some motorcycles had raced by us (no one spooked), but I was having difficulty finding out what was going to make Sizz settle. We'd spun several times, done several half rears and straight hops, and backed swiftly with the head down. Sizz is no super athlete like Nala, so my seat was still with him completely. But we were making no progress with learning to be calm on the beach.

Not sure if you've ever seen a horse's eyeballs actually rolling around in their head, but it's not something I like seeing. Sizz's whites kept showing back at me.
Thankfully, the new rider had some issues of her own and was ready to head back to her barn (she'd ridden an hour to get to the beach, along the road). 

We headed back, and I tried various strategies. I tried plugging Sizz right behind Penny, I tried letting him trot out away in big circles, I tried moving him out with Nala. Nothing brought him down, and his eyes kept rolling. I told the girls I needed to get him off the beach.

Poor Nala was now getting worked up too. I think her deal was not Sizz, but rather that we'd gone down the beach slowly and now were heading back already. At the top of the dune, Nala was leaping and cantering in place. Penny's rider decided to stay on the beach. I wasn't sure that was good with such a green horse, but I couldn't get close enough to holler about it so I gave up.

We headed back to the fields around the barn with Nala and Sizz, where we took them long trotting and cantering until they both became calm. So everything ended well. Apparently Penny was upset seeing us leave, but she is too bulky to do much to unsettle a rider and has no stamina so she gave up after a minute. 

I'm going to do some more work with Sizz around the barn, and more shorter type rides to the beach. What might have happened is the "2nd ride syndrome." We've noted that often the first time somewhere new such as the beach, a horse might appear less wound up than the second time. It's almost like they're so overfaced they just look around and don't know how to react. But the next time, they are able to look AND react, so it can seem a bit worse.


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## gottatrot

Today I rode Cass, the 17 hand Friesian/Percheron/TB cross. 

Brave's rider asked me to help her practice some cantering on Brave while having an experienced rider on Cass as the anchor horse. 

It was great to ride Cass as a break from all the antsy prancy stuff I dealt with on Sizz yesterday. He is big, comfortable and steady. It takes a bit of strength to get him to go to a lower gait, but he does respond well to bit and leg cues. His trot is absolutely gorgeous.

We did a bit of trotting and were getting ready to canter, but Brave's owner had a different saddle on him and he wasn't settling well. Her legs were hitting him in a different spot, and he is green enough that it was bothering him. 

Just about then, something unusual happened, which was that a dirt bike came shooting up over a small dune trail and onto the beach behind the horses. I didn't know that happened until later, because all I knew was that my calm horse suddenly humped up under me and bucked, then ran forward a step. By three seconds, I had him in hand and was turning back to see Brave's rider getting hurled off her horse like a sling shot. 

Then saw the flying helmet come shooting through the dune grass as the motorbike rider came down to the beach. It was a dark shape, hurtling fast and must have seemed like a charging bear to the horses.

I guess Brave moved fast in about three directions and then spun, which threw the rider off. Thankfully she was not hurt, he stopped fifty feet away, and we slowly went up to him and he waited for us. She got back on and we continued our ride.

It took Brave awhile to calm, but we rode for another hour and it was a good ride anyway, I think. Didn't do any cantering practice, but maybe another day. For my part, I enjoyed riding the big black gelding quite a bit.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, what an interesting story. I can't believe the nerve of that woman.



horseluvr2524 said:


> How is that little firecracker Satin anyway? I haven't heard of her for some time.


Mostly she has been just enjoying life like Amore and Halla. I've felt that she is old enough she doesn't necessarily _need_ work, and kind of consider her unofficially retired. She is about Amore's age. 
But Rebel's owner took a friend out for a ride the other day, as you can see Satin has as much spunk as ever. The report was that they had a great time.











horseluvr2524 said:


> I know good riding etiquette. However, I will admit that I find it bothersome to yell out "can we trot now?", or "can we canter?"


Agree very much with your post. I also prefer to not have to ask about every gait change, and Nala's rider and I have in the past known that each could handle their own mount, so we only discussed things like galloping off. But I don't have Halla to ride now.

By the way, my mares are doing very well, and getting their daily grooming and walks, and thriving. Not a lot to journal about, but having Rascal as the new gelding in the next field has given them all a little spice in life, as they give him mare faces and squeals to teach him his place. 

I will need to do more work alone as @phantomhorse13 does. 
*************************************************

Today was half good and slightly not good. We took out Nala, Sizz and Rascal, with Nala's rider's new boyfriend taking Rascal. He may decide to be Rascal's owner, which is what Nala's rider is promoting. He has owned horses in the past, I'd call him an intermediate rider. Personally, I would never put him on a green horse. He is an adult, middle-aged, owned horses, knows the horse is completely green, and that's not my decision.
Being an opinionated type, I pointed out numerous times that the horse is very green.

My advice was only walk, go around the field. Maybe down to the beach but not onto it.

Everything went very calmly, with Sizz being the most calm and responsive I've ever seen. I used my Myler curb, and that was definitely the best bit for him. He wanted loose rein, but doesn't neck rein well enough to call it neck reining, so I lightly direct reined and he was quite happy.

We went down to the beach, Rascal's rider said "why not?" go down onto the beach, because Rascal had been calm and good. I said no way. I explained Rascal could easily just take off. So we went back, and all was very well.
Sizz got a little excited just looking at the beach, so I was glad to have him just look at it and then leave, as a lesson. 

Rascal's rider wanted to try to close the gate to the field. As he went near, Rascal jigged a little. Nala's rider told him it was too soon to try. Well, he decided on his own to try again. As he grabbed the gate, Rascal backed up, and the rider did not let go, so the gate swung back at him. I've rarely seen a horse back up so fast and far. He was out of there, and needless to say the rider ended up on his neck, and very nearly made it back into the saddle but Rascal kept backing rapidly so he rolled off. Had enough experience to roll nicely and not get hurt.

Then, we said he should use the mounting block to get back on. I offered to hold the horse. He made a quick decision to try on his own, but the saddle slipped, Rascal got nervous, gave a buck, and ran for home. Well, green horse stuff that really should not have happened. His rider was chagrined and knew it was wrong not to listen, and quite his fault.

I had to do some "fixing" so at the barn Rascal got a surcingle put on and long lines, and I quietly ground drove him around the property for a few minutes. He had to go out alone where he'd been nervous, and walk calmly and respond to the bit. Walk, be calm, and some whoa/stand. By the time he got back he was super calm and stood nicely to be brushed and have his hooves picked out. Not my ideal training day, but Sizz at least seems to be improving quickly.

I'm a little worried, knowing Nala's rider wants Rascal for her BF but they will not be a good match. If she is realistic, she will return him and find a more suitable horse. If he wanted to wait six months and let us put some serious training in, it could end up being OK. But I like Rascal and would rather see him stay and get some serious training, and of course I'd like to do it. Hmm.


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## Dragoon

Give Rascal a chance. Give the BF a chance. 

How often do people come together with exactly the right level of trained horse for their skill anyways? That is what is preached, and is ideal, but isn't what happens in the real world...and to my observations, it all works out...mostly. 

This horse needs a good home, and could have one, with your help. 
And you need the challenge, lol. 
D.


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## horseluvr2524

If BF is willing to listen and change his attitude a bit, then it might work out OK. Having a green horse when you don't really know what you are doing, and worse won't take advice from others, can be a very long and hard road. That was my own experience with Shan. I know that I missed out on a lot over the years simply because I didn't have a horse that was ready to do things that my friends were doing (compete in gymkhanas, show jumping, etc.). I probably know more about training difficult horses than they may ever know, but I don't have the ribbons and IMO don't have the refined finesse of someone who has trained for showing.

Point being that BF will enjoy himself more if he gets a horse that is ready to do everything he wants to do now, rather than struggle through with a horse that isn't ready yet.

But as Dragoon said, personally I would like to see them together for several rides before saying yea or nay. Maybe he will figure it out? He did admit that he was wrong for his actions on the ride, and that is a good thing.


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...Point being that BF will enjoy himself more if he gets a horse that is ready to do everything he wants to do now, rather than struggle through with a horse that isn't ready yet...


Maybe. But maybe the challenge will both teach and motivate him. If he is an intermediate rider, he is way beyond what I was when I got Mia, and he has a lot more help available to him than I had. But the challenge is part of what got me hooked on riding.

Not saying it is a pretty way to learn, but learning often isn't pretty. If I had started with a quiet, calm trail horse, I probably wouldn't still be riding. I was forced to treat the horse as a person because Mia would not be treated as anything less. Had I learned the more traditional way, riding lesson horses around while someone shouted "Get on your pockets!"...well, I would not have learned much and probably would have dropped riding within a year.

Sounds like the BF got hit by the Karma Hammer. If he learns from it, a door could be opening in his life. If he doesn't...


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## Dragoon

I agree with bsms, horseluver.
I started riding four years ago. I *thought that I wanted to learn how to do a perfect two-point over a course of jumps like the experienced students. Until I met my (now) gelding, and my goal became just to stay on (he's a bolter), and to learn to ride his quirky personality. 
He was way above my skill level, and I fell in love. Somewhere along the way, I stopped coming off with regularity, and we've come to an understanding. 

In the past year, I've also been riding an OTTB that has had no training since coming off the track four years ago. She learns slowly, and reacts badly to anything out of her comfort zone. Bucking is her thing. Way above my skill level. And I've fallen in love again. We are making progress, though I'm sure a better trainer would be progressing faster than I. But there is no way someone else would be enjoying her more!

I'm cherishing every moment I get to spend with these two, they've taught me sooo much. I've had my bumps and bruises, but overall I never dreamed that spending time with a horse could be so fascinating and rewarding. I've ridden a few well-behaved horses too, but it's not the same. Its only a ride, not an experience...


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## gottatrot

My hope is that ideally the experienced riders can put more time and miles into Rascal, and then everyone will have a better time of it in the end. 

With horses to ride, I slept 5 hrs after getting off night shift and then ran off to get some horse time before dusk. Winter is rough. So many times I wonder about riding tricky horses on just a few hours of sleep. 

It had been a beautiful day, and it turned out half the horses had been ridden, which always makes me happy. I think only two sound horses did not get worked, and one of those is old anyway.

Sizzler's owner decided to go out _*on Sizzler*_ to the beach. Rebel's rider was going to ride Penny, and the older man who has Leo the QH wanted to ride too. Rebel's rider is a strong intermediate and she told Sizz's owner how he has been on the beach so far. They went anyway. 

Somehow my taking him out for three rides is supposed to turn a jittery TB into a calm horse that a nervous, insecure rider can handle? Not sure what the owner expected. 

Apparently they made it about a half hour before it became too scary and Sizz's owner wanted out. By then, Nala's rider had ridden out and met up with them. 

Thankfully, Leo's rider is experienced with ponying and offered to pony Sizz around for awhile, which he did for about a half hour. After that, Nala's rider suggested that Penny and Sizz switch riders. After another half hour of angst with the new rider, apparently Sizz wore out. 








Perhaps that was what it took...personally I like to avoid wearing out horses if I can. I've found that it can sour their attitude on riding, just like people tend to enjoy exercise more if they get into shape gradually rather than beginning with hard daily workouts.

Anyhow, they had a calm and exhausted Sizz at the end. In my mind, two hours on an unfit horse is excessive. Well, I'm a very opinionated person. 

Nala's rider only had time after her ride to lunge Rascal ten minutes, and ride once around the east field. Since I arrived after he'd been turned back out for a half hour, I decided to give him another short work. He was good as gold and stood like an old veteran all alone while I brushed and saddled him.

He does not seem like a horse that challenges. When I tightened the cinch (very gently), he lifted a hind leg. He did it one more time, I said "No." He stopped. Basically, when you tell him to stop something, he does. Very cute.

I think Rascal likes me. I called him "Wascally Wabbit" and talked to him throughout our ride so he'd know I was with him. He wanted to be nervous about going around the big west field all alone, but when I felt his muscles get less loose I turned him quickly and went another way so he didn't focus on what concerned him. That worked fine for him. 

Later when he raised his head and started looking around, I had him trot. Once long trotting he felt comfortable and relaxed (he has a super comfy trot - I could ride it all day). 
So many horses relax more when they are moving along. 
He did nice and sharp transitions, as well as a horse much further along in training. 
At the end he was marching confidently, and he stayed relaxed all the way back to his pen. 

It's doing him well to have a big pasture turnout and frequent work, I believe, and he seems to only need experiences and miles.


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## gottatrot

I'm reading a book called "_Are We Smart Enough To Know How Smart Animals Are?_" by Frans de Waal.

It's interesting, although I disagree with many things. The author begins to discuss how animals don't really seem to have a linear progression of intelligence from so-called "lower" animals to "higher," but yet still seems to persist in believing apes are the most intelligent based on brain size and how they do in certain tests. 

It seemed to me that if you really followed through with some of his thoughts about how we can't actually understand how each animal perceives the world through their senses and what they experience, you might conclude that "smart" is not so easy to quantify. We might test apes in ways that are easier for us to understand and measure, versus the types of tests we might be able to do on a slug.

He said he was not willing to say that a frog was conscious. I think a frog can think and feel and enjoy life like the rest of us.

My personal belief is that we simply can't understand how a bee or frog feels so we assume they have lesser intelligence. Yet the more we learn about animals, the more our assumptions get disproven, which is something the book is good about illustrating. For example, it was once thought that very few animals used tools, but we're learning that many types of animals use tools. 

A couple of things in the book have had me questioning some of my beliefs. One thing I've always thought (because I've been told) is that animals live in the present, and they don't live or plan for the future. If a squirrel is putting nuts in a tree, it's not because they're thinking about how long and cold the winter is going to be, but rather because it has the instinct to do the behavior.

Why do we make this assumption? Seriously, how do we know the squirrel isn't thinking about winter? When I really thought about it, I know that I've seen evidence of animals thinking ahead and planning for the future. For one thing, many horses I've worked with will see you coming to get them in the field and will urinate. I took Sizzler for a ride, and when we were done, the first thing he did was pee for a long time. The next time I went to the field, he stopped and peed first before coming with me. 

In the book, the author talked about monkeys that were planning to get food out of hives or nests, and they brought sticks with them for a long distance, planning ahead for what they needed to get into the nest. 

I think my aversion for people "blaming the horse" for things they cause, has made me deny that horses can plan ahead. It seems to follow that when people believe the horse can plan, they then ascribe to the horse evil plans to thwart a ride and make their life difficult.

We've talked before about how people say a horse is "honest." Why I disagree with the thought of the dishonest horse, or the scheming/plotting horse, is because I think as with a naughty child, most are misunderstood. What we should strive to do is find out what motivates the horse, what causes them to misbehave, and what will give them the desire to work with us. It makes me focus on stretching my thinking, being creative and trying to understand each horse as an individual.

But meanwhile, while noticing how smart horses are, in my quest to not "anthropomorphize," I've probably limited myself by not understanding the biases I have about their intelligence and mental capabilities.

In a way, the author seems to think maybe we don't anthropomorphize enough. By trying to understand how the animal thinks and feels, we may have to use our own understanding of the world as humans to relate. That is a danger when we think of horses as actual humans, or children. But if we instead try to do our best to think of them as feeling, biological creatures like ourselves, it may help us figure out their motivations. I find this useful myself, to think about how I feel when I have too much energy, or when I'm bored, or when my back hurts, or when I'm hungry, and then to empathize with a horse who may feel the same.


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## gottatrot

The plan for the day was to take Rascal and Sizzler out individually. My idea was to saddle up, ground drive them down to the beach, do some long lining until they were working and calm, then take off the lines and get on for a short ride.

I thought no one would be riding, with sprinkling off and on along with about 20 mph sustained breeze. Temp 55F. In my mind, not bad but I doubted others would be there.

When I got to the barn, the teen was there who has also been riding Sizzler. Real quick, I thought about how calm and responsive to cues Rascal has been, how Sizzler recently had a long ride on the beach and I suspected he wouldn't be nervous about it anymore, how neither horse was very spooky or racy on their own, and I asked her if she wanted to ride Sizzler to the beach with me and Rascal.

After looking at photos and evaluating Sizz's saddle well, I thought I had discovered why his back has been sore. His saddle has been placed far forward onto his shoulder, and based on the poking my hand felt when I put the saddle in this position, I believe this slanted the tree uphill so the bars are poking him at the back. 
This is a photo from the previous ride, and I think a more uncomfortable horse.









I provided some education to those who saddle him, and it was well received. :wink:
I think he looked a lot more comfortable today with his saddle in a good position.









The boys did amazingly well. We prevented them from stalling out for more than a few moments, since neither one is confident yet. They each did just a couple tiny little "I-don't-know-what-to-do" reactions, which are very similar for both boys. A step backward, a little hop, etc. Sizzler's rider handled him well and we each got our own horse forward when necessary. 
On the beach, it was the first time Sizzler's eyes did not roll around.
We walked mostly, with a little bit of calm trotting.

There was a seriously strong headwind, and my jacket was making a buzzing sound as the wind ripped through it. Rascal was like, "Huh, guess that's what it sounds like down here," and it didn't bother him at all. Sizzler's rider has a naughty puppy that raced around and leaped but Rascal just pinned his ears at him a couple times.
Sizzler actually seems to like the pup.

In contrast, a couple years ago I had the same jacket on with Amore, and when it started making that sound she tucked her tail and ran as the jacket noise chased us down the beach. I tried to tuck my hood inside and flatten the parts that were flapping, and she didn't stop until I fixed the noise.

When we turned back, I wondered if the wind at our back would make the horses want to speed up. Rascal was so tired (the sand was deep today, plus the headwind) that I was actually pushing him a bit. Sizzler had just a little pep but nothing like he's been on prior rides. 

Just before we got off the beach, Sizzler's rider tried to get him to move forward and he picked up a canter, shooting up to Rascal. Rascal immediately got ready to race off, and as he took the first step I circled him around sharply. He disengaged easily, and was calm within a couple moments, even before Sizzler's rider got him stopped. I thought that was very good.

Here they are, just after the ride.









Although it might not have seemed ideal with two horses just starting into work, I think they were much better off with each other. Rascal has a generally calm mind, and Sizzler is not a racer. Together they worked better than either has with Nala, who is both racey and not calm.


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## knightrider

I liked your discussion about animal intelligence. A lot to think about. I believe there are dishonest horses and I've ridden a few of them, especially the one I wrote about in your journal--I called him Patches, but that was not his real name. That horse rode along thinking of ways to get the rider off. Of course I don't know if he was in pain. We didn't know anything about saddle fit . . . or pain for that matter, in those olden times. He was a nasty brute who did not care about his riders. He had a horrible gait and was not fun to ride. He was lucky to find a good home with people who loved him and took good care of him all his life.

I've known some ponies that schemed about removing their riders through the whole ride. I owned a mare who tossed everyone who tried to ride her but me. She took really good care of me. She was very quick on her feet and at times would twist so quickly that I would find myself coming off of her. Then she'd put herself back under me so I didn't come off. On the other hand, she was dreadful for other riders, and VERY dishonest. Like Patches, she would give no indication she was going to come out from under the rider--she could do it in a split second. By that time I did know about saddle fit and pain and paid to have a saddle fitter come out, evaluate her, and re-stuff the saddle to fit her. We thought for a time it was the bit, and I used to ride her with a twisted sewn sock in her mouth. Didn't make any difference. She was who she was. She wanted to be my horse and didn't want others to ride her. After a bunch of other people's ugly falls, I learned to "just say no" when people asked to ride her.


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## Hondo

All this talk about the intelligence of slugs reminded me of a video I took several years ago of ants pilfering Meka's dog food.


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## bsms

As much as I like the Nikkel's stuff, I disagree with them in one area:



> False “saddle fit rule” #3 – set your saddle 2” behind the shoulder blade
> 
> While you don’t hear this one as often regarding Western saddles, it shows up now and then. It is brought over from the English world, where the 2” rule is supposed to apply to where the arches of the English saddle (not the front of the saddle) are “supposed to” fit. Whether or not it applies there, it does not apply to Western saddles. Nor will the saddle stay there if it is placed there. Like we have said before (and will continue to repeat) unless it is held out of place with a breast collar or crupper, a good fitting saddle will move into the place it is made to fit – behind the shoulder blade. So you can delete this “rule”. It just won’t work."
> 
> False "saddle fit rules" regarding the shoulder blades
> 
> Unlike the arch of an English saddle that has flat, narrow metal pieces, the bar of a Western saddle is rounded and curved in all directions. *This means it isn’t a wall for the shoulder blade to bump into but a curve that directs the shoulder blade to slide underneath.*
> 
> Movement of the shoulder blades and saddle fit


That doesn't match my experience. Bandit has a relatively flat back with pronounced shoulders. I need to put the saddle about a hand width back from where they say to put it. If I don't, it interferes with his shoulders. 

They say the muscles of the shoulder will slide under the tree and that is OK since the horse is not bearing weight on the leg at the time of forward extension. Try that with Trooper and he won't buck. But he'll be reluctant to canter. Do it with Bandit, and he may buck. His canter will suck.

In fact, that seems to have been a big part of his cantering problem lately. If you look at how two spoons fit together, and look at his back and the saddle, it looks like the saddle belongs at "X". You can shift it loose on his back, you can walk him around and turn him with it loose on his back, and it seems like X works. He obeys fine at a walk that way, and trots OK. But his canter will be heavy on the front - and I think it is because he can't stretch his front legs out enough.

Why? Because if I put the saddle a hand back from X, then he canters smooth and loose. If I put it at X, he does not. And if I walk along side of him at X, and slide my hand under the saddle, I can feel the muscles encountering pressure at the rounded front end of the tree. Not bad. Not painfully, I'm sure. At a walk.

I tend to get suckered in to gradually placing the saddle further forward to where it looks like two spoons matching. That was what I was doing, without realizing it, a few weeks ago. And I blamed Bandit's poor canter on his injury. But I got to thinking about it, and he had exhibited the same problem before we left for vacation, two week prior to his injury. Shifted it back the other day and the problem went away. Hmmmm...

What I'm doing now is using the end of his mane as a marker. Trooper seems fine if the front edge of the leather (not the tree) lines up with the end of his mane. Bandit need 2-3 inches behind that for the leading edge of the leather. That gives me a definite marker for reference. Then I can adjust based on how he rides, and determine saddle placement based on results.

And no, doing that does NOT result in the saddle sliding forward. Maybe because his back is flatter than normal?

And maybe Bandit's issues are rooted in his A-frame back and how slender he is - particularly when compared to any QH I've ever seen!










PS: I often use the front half of a Wintec foam pad to 'flatten' the bottom of my saddle, which has too much rock for Bandit's back. When I do that, I can place the front of the leather just behind the end of his mane. The tree starts a little ways behind that, and I can slide the pad a few inched behind the start of the tree. That seems to take enough of the rock out without creating dry spots under the saddle. It also creates an empty space under the front of the tree where his muscles can slide underneath the tree itself without encountering pressure.

Of course, that reduces the effective area of weight distribution of my saddle. But Bandit moves more willingly and with greater enthusiasm that way. I wonder if Arabians tend to use more lift at the shoulders than QHs, just as they tend to carry their heads higher.

I'm not in any way knocking Quarter Horses. But here is a randomly chosen Internet picture:








​
Bandit:

















​
Maybe rules of saddle fit that work for one might not work for the other?​


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## Hondo

One well known saddle fitter/saddle maker stresses that it is imperative that the saddle gullet be parallel to the shoulder blade in the shoulder blade area. Might be something to check.

I have read that the end of the horse's mane is a marker for the back of the shoulder blade but was shot down on the forum when I mentioned it. But the horses on the ranch that I have checked do fit this description.

Since you are successful placing the tree behind the mane I have to at least wonder if you are finding the back of the scapula searching by pressing on the area.

When you speak of saddle placement, are you considering tree placement which is "usually" about one inch further forward of the forward concho. There is a hole through the tip of the tree that the conco saddle string ties to the saddle skirt. The skirt which is forward of the tree on a Western saddle bears no significant weight.

And it is super super important for the saddle to never bear weight or even touch the thoracic trapezius.









I have played with the two spoon concept in the past holding two spoons between my thumb and index finger and have been able to slide them forward and back with ease. I see no reason the same wouldn't apply to a well fitting saddle and a horse's back. Of course, ratcheting down the cinch will help overcome most or all of this on most horses. Hondo is so round and wide at the shoulders that I've gone to britching , breast collar, and a loose cinch.

Doesn't appeal to the eye of most, but it sure helps keep Hondo more comfortable.


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## Hondo

BTW, the English fitters say that even with the so called 2 inch rule the scapula still slides under the gullet frame. The 2 inches simply gives the time/space for relaxation where the scapula can easily slide under.

On gaited horses with their heavily muscled shoulders it is sometimes recommended a little more distance may be needed. I'm understanding the Arabians are a little wider/flatter at the shoulders so this may apply.

I'm not a fitter. I just post here.


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## Hondo

BTW, the English fitters say the shoulder blade slides under the gullet frame even with the so called 2 inch rule. The 2 inches is just to give the horse time/space to relax the shoulder where it can slide under.

Some say that gaited horses with their heavily muscled shoulders may need a little more space. I'm understanding that Arabians are a little wide and flat in that area so that may apply.


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## bsms

I'm not looking for the bone itself, @*Hondo* . I need to avoid pressure on the muscles moving back as the leg extends forward. If I'm walking alongside, I can slide my hand up and feel the muscles moving and feel pressure ridges on my hand. One argument against my comments is that my hand interferes with what is happening, and there would BE more room for sliding muscles if my hand wasn't there. True enough.

But I also find shoving the saddle too far to the rear doesn't harm how my horse moves, while just a little too far forward does. Don't know if that is because I ride more forward at speed than a lot of western riders do.

The nice thing about using the end of the mane and the front leather of a given saddle is that I can adjust it by 1/2" increments on subsequent rides, and see what position gives me a freely moving horse without getting a saddle sliding forward going downhill. I can also feel the leading edge of the tree, and adjust accordingly if switching from my leather saddle to my Abetta saddle. 

Cowboy has a very different shoulder than Bandit and Trooper. His shoulder blade is harder to feel, and his muscles don't bunch up at the front of the saddle. In the area under the saddle tree, his shoulder flows smoothly into the saddle tree area. As long as you don't put the tree on top of the shoulder itself, he is fine. He looks like a 13.0 hand Quarter Horse. Although 8 inches shorter than Bandit, his back is every bit as broad.








​
It is all speculation on my part. I don't have access to many horses. But I can say Bandit moves more freely and more relaxed when I have the saddle quite a bit further back than is generally recommended. And with his back, it never slides forward. All I can do is share it as one data point. I'd love to see some good research done involving western saddles, but it seems there isn't any money there.

PS: I have 7/8th rigging. Wish it was 3/4...although if the tree was flatter, it wouldn't matter much. I may look this spring at working with Steele again, and trying to get a custom tree for Bandit. He's a bit eccentric physically as well as mentally, but we match eccentricities well. Between Steele and Dakota, I might be able to get something that truly fits his back without breaking the bank. Heck, if I can keep him for another 15 years of riding (he is 9 now), then just how much per year would a custom saddle be?

Now...if I can convince my WIFE with that argument...:think:


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## Hondo

Of the various saddle fit videos I've watched, this is my very favorite, and IMNTBH opinion, should be required viewing before allowed to acquire a horse.


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## gottatrot

Great video of the ants, @Hondo. Their coordination is amazing.
When we fed our dog outside, we noticed that the slugs would time their approach (very slow) along our wood deck so they'd arrive at the bowl just after the dog was finished. Then they'd clean up the scraps.
@bsms, I hadn't noticed the emphasis from the Nikkel site on the shoulder blade sitting close to the tree points, I just was thinking they said to make sure it was behind. In my mind, I'd much rather err on the side of keeping the shoulder completely clear.

That's what makes saddle fitting so difficult. With any individual saddle and horse, one part of the saddle can make everything not work. If the horse is built downhill, putting the tree points behind the shoulder might make the saddle rock or now you can see the saddle is not wide enough for the horse. So instead of getting a different saddle, people ride with it too far forward where it "fits." Putting the saddle where it "wants to go" only works if the saddle fits the horse in the first place.

The Nikkels believe that the english saddle rule of keeping the back of the saddle tree off the loin or not past the last rib attachment is not true, and that the back muscles can bear the weight farther back.
However, the longer the saddle is, the more difficult it is for the saddle angles and parts to match the back. So functionally, the chances of a saddle fitting the horse if it is long on the horse's back are low. 

With english saddles, I've often seen sore loins but this is often because there is not enough space between the panels. This kind of thing makes the horse sore, because even if you think the spine is not affected, once the horse moves and turns, the panels are hitting the spine.









I've also found that many horses have problems from people putting the saddle too close to or on the shoulder. Halla has a huge shoulder muscle and needs a lot of clearance.

I read something on a saddle fitting site, which I find true for english saddles. Most people think their horse needs a narrower tree than they do, especially horses with high withers. You're not fitting the shoulder/withers, you're fitting the back behind the shoulder. Once the saddle is back there, it often needs to be wider than you think.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Putting the saddle where it "wants to go" only works if the saddle fits the horse in the first place.


This bears repeating!

When I made Hondo's custom bars, I did a flex ruler measurement 2 inches behind the scapula and eight inches down. Same for the middle and 18th. It was really enlightening to me to see the plywood mock up.

I also did a lot of chalk drawing on his back and did a lot of probing for the edges of various muscles, particularly the lats.

End result is that he has a huge weight bearing area with no more than 1/16th inch variation from his back.

Did a long hard 8 hour ride with him last Saturday with very little rest after no riding for about a month. I was concerned about his back but found no sore spots anywhere. He was tired the next day as was I, but no sore skin on his back.

When I think of how I just bought a saddle and threw it on Hondo three years ago I shudder is shame.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> End result is that he has a huge weight bearing area with no more than 1/16th inch variation from his back.


That is amazing and quite ideal that you made the tree and saddle to fit Hondo. 
I would try it except I don't know how to do it with an english saddle.

I've been working each night on Sizzler's back. Judging by the way he carries himself and what I feel in his back, he's had some long term issues, and I blame them on saddling. I believe that just like with humans, you can have the muscle spasm begin and then it can continue on. Even if he feels better after resting, anything is ready to trigger that spasm, and it needs a long period of relief and using the body properly to hopefully resolve it.

The biggest reason I blame it on his saddle and how it has been placed on him in the past, is because the problem is on both sides of his back along the muscle ridge where the arrow is pointing. That muscle ridge is hard and raised, and I've never felt that particular muscle so pronounced on a horse before. I imagine it might be more common than I realize, on horses that are ridden regularly with saddles that are not fitted right. Seems natural to brace there against a poking saddle.


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## gottatrot

I'm very proud of Rascal. I was able to get him out for four rides this week, and Sizzler went for two with one very long one. 

As the 30 day trial is ending, Nala's rider is talking about how things will go "through the winter," and I haven't asked her directly but I believe she is planning to keep Rascal. 

Poor Rascal has been to the beach about five times, and four of those have had very bad weather. Yesterday it was raining, today there was a blasting wind and rain. Yet he's been walking up to me right away when I go to get him, all interested. Today when a big side wind hit him he did throw his head up and hop, but I told him he couldn't blame me for the weather and he had to behave. 

He's starting to learn the difference between moving off my leg sideways while keeping his body straight, versus bending through the body, versus disengaging the hind. 

I was very alert yesterday because we went out with Nala plus Rebel's owner on young, stocky Penny and I knew that no matter what I told her, once we hit the beach she'd do whatever entered her mind. Or perhaps she just lets the horse choose the gait, I'm suspicious of that. 

While Penny and Nala picked up their canters, I focused on disengaging Rascal's forward motion to keep him to a walk. It may be not ideal that he has a downhill build and not enough muscle to overcome it yet in the hind, but at the same time he loses power when he is bent, so I was able to keep him from speeding up each time, and this built on our previous lessons that I am the one deciding the speed, not the other horses. It did not distress him, and I do believe he will end up very reliable.

Today with just Nala, she was medium hot due to the wild weather. Her rider kept her speed down so she stayed with us, and although she broke into a canter a few times and was snorty, Rascal long trotted alongside and stayed very focused and did not get excited. I wanted to let him canter, but allowed him to fall into it because his hind end strength is still not there. 

He did about five canter strides, but it's rather atrocious, very short and hoppy and he soon fell out of it. Rather than push him through, I just let him trot because I think it will be better to wait for him to feel strong and balanced at other gaits first. His downhills are improving, and he's able to go a little slower down the dunes and walk straight. Once he feels like he's pushing strongly down the hill, can walk and trot up powerfully and canter well on the lunge (he is short and hoppy there too), then I'll ask for more. 

Rascal did one big spook on the beach, a leap to the side which was not difficult to stay with but probably would have lost a beginner rider. To me, just one spook is pretty impressive for a horse with little experience in that wild weather with the wind whipping over the dune grass and the sand was blowing in streams that can be disorienting and also sting.








He did want to lower his head when he got tired, and power along on his front end so I gave little tugs on the bit to make him carry his head higher than his wither and use his hind end.

Apparently since Halla's hooves are feeling great (all the bad hoof wall has grown out), and her knees not so bad, Nala and Halla have been doing occasional laps up and down the pasture fence next to Rascal. I heard he was trying to play too, but only made it down one length before giving up. I'm sure Nala is happy to have Halla back running again. Amore is rarely interested in that type of play, preferring her hobby of eating grass.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Seems natural to brace there against a poking saddle.


Great picture. I saved it.

Must have been a pretty wide saddle to have been poking in that area. The edge of the latissimus is one of the areas I chalked out and measured as it is stressed that no pressure should be born at the edge of any muscle.

And three years ago I thought a saddle was just a backpack for a horse. One size fits all. Likely a lot of non-horse people think that today.

Hondo's saddle sits where it was built for. On steep clambering uphills and downhills it will slide forward or backwards but will return to the proper location on the level. He's just so round and wide at the shoulders that I've given up on trying to tighten the girth enough to keep it in place.

Most regular rides are no problem but last Saturday's 8 hour ride was over the top in steep rugged terrain. And that happens sometimes on regular rides so after last Saturday I just decided to go permanently with the britching and loose cinch.

I really wanted a trooper saddle and would have scraped enough together to have someone make one but no one had the capability to properly fit a trooper to a 10 inch gullet/shoulder width. And I actually have a problem with the bars I've seen on trooper saddles.

I do have the Corrector air bladders to use but it fits well without them.


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## bsms

I saw this in Steele's brochure and liked it as a short summary of western saddle fit:



> At Steele Saddle Tree *we define proper fit as achieving contact between the tree and the horse's back over as large an area as possible while not creating pressure points during normal riding activity*. This distributes the combined weight of the rider and equipment over as large an area as possible, thus reducing the pound per square inch ratio (the more square inches of bearing surface, the less weight per square inch with a given load).
> 
> There is no single, absolute definition of proper fit because different riding disciplines benefit from slight variations. For instance, a barrel racing tree gives the rider an advantage if it has additional clearance at the ends of the bars so that 'bridging' and the associated restriction is not an impediment to the horse when bending around the barrels. A cutting tree gives an advantage to the rider by having a flatter rear rafter angle. This allows the rear of the saddle to float, thereby not restricting the horse's maneuverability by locking the horse's rear end to its front.
> 
> There are as many of these slight variations as there are disciplines but, in general, more contact means less pressure per square inch and thus less likelihood of restricted blood flow and skin/muscle trauma.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I saw this in Steele's brochure and liked it as a short summary of western saddle fit:


I like Steele and talked to them about a tree for Hondo but I wanted a trooper which a tree would not work for. I even talked to them about using a set of their bars on the Trooper frames but decided to go with Kydex. The Trooper frames appear to possibly be hard on wood bars as one bar was broken on the saddle I bought and the other had been replaced as bolts were used rather than the rivets of the original.

I've had some thoughts about pressure points, weight distribution, and cellular death from sustained pressure over 1.5 PSI on the skin. Stressing "sustained".

While walking along side Hondo with my hand on his back, I observed a lot of small movements even though the saddle fit area is relatively stable, there is still a lot of twisting and rocking. It occurred to me that during the few massages I've recieved, the pressure applied was a heck of a lot greater than 1.5 PSI. And a massage is supposed to actually increase circulation.

So it seems that the danger is in an area that does not see a reduction down to or below 1.5 PSI, AKA PRESSURE POINT.

Otherwise it makes me wonder if a well fitting saddle could actually be giving the horse a nice massage while he walked along. Note that I said, "makes me wonder".


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## bsms

One practice I've come to really like is dismounting about once an hour, loosening the cinch, leading my horse for 5 minutes, then mounting up. Bandit is a little too small for me, I think. I'm only at 25% of his weight (with saddle), and Mia NEVER showed any signs of getting tired. But Bandit is so darn slender...and he does act tired of carrying me. Walking him for 5 minutes always seems to refresh him.

I've never seen a sign it was a problem for Trooper either. Bandit's previous owner told me Bandit had sometimes done 10-15 mile 'training rides' with a rider who was at least 260 lbs in his socks...so 300 lbs on an 800 lb horse, covering 10-15 miles in racing preparation. MAYBE that did something to Bandit's back. Don't know. But for what I do, dismounting regularly is no big deal and it seems to help my horse. Still...if a light & understanding rider wanted to buy Bandit, I'd consider selling. Not because I don't like him, but because I do. He darn near smiled when my 110 lb DIL cantered on him!

PS - Thinking about what Steele says about a barrel racing saddle. My riding often involves lots of sharp turns, one after the other, at a walk, zig-zagging between cactus. 135 degree turns are common, and then 135 back in the other direction. Maybe that activity requires more room for the shoulders than riding mostly straight ahead.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Maybe that activity requires more room for the shoulders than riding mostly straight ahead.


Maybe, but I'd add steep downhills where a fore is extended but bearing most of the weight of the horse. Add 180 degree switchbacks and the problem multiplies. I did a complete re-saddle twice on that 8 hour 15 mile ride. That was the impetus to go back to the britching.

I did a short ride in the field today just to check out the adjustments on "stuff" plus give Hondo a little time in his brand new Vipers (bright orange) plus see how my brand new 6 month old Australian Kelpie/Border Collie cross acted with me mounted.

Roman is one fine dog. Had him one week yesterday. Got him from A.R.F. (animal rescue friends).


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I did a short ride in the field today just to check out the adjustments on "stuff" plus give Hondo a little time in his brand new Vipers (bright orange) plus see how my brand new 6 month old Australian Kelpie/Border Collie cross acted with me mounted.
> 
> Roman is one fine dog. Had him one week yesterday. Got him from A.R.F. (animal rescue friends).


Have any pictures of Roman?

How do you like the Vipers? Hopefully you got a good fit. With a good fit, Vipers are my all time favorite boot. 
I have orange ones too. I figured they'd be easier to find if I lost one. We'd always be flinging off and losing the black Easyboots, so we'd spray paint them other colors since they were too hard to see. Yet the colorful Renegades and Vipers I've never thrown off, so it doesn't really matter that they're bright. :grin:


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## Hondo

I sent these pictures in to Renegade for their recommendations for fit. I ordered the size they recommended which was way larger than I would have ordered even though they stress a loose fit retains better than a tight fit. They mentioned the only problem they saw was what looked like a broken back on the right fore which sent me into a tailspin and a trip to the vet's for x rays which I've been wanting for some time anyhow. Feet look pretty good on the x-rays. Barely se one tack point in one x-ray. I measured and calibrated and marked up the x-rays and figure I could take 1/8th of one fore and 3/16ths off the other. Pretty darn close.

Then I sized up the x-rays and boots in Photoshop to see how his hoof angles would fit and waalaaa!! lala!!

You want pictures? I got pictures!

Edit: Got video not uploaded of Roman. Will look for pics. I've been looking for this cross for some time and he is perfect. I could already write pages about him.


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## Hondo

I do have a couple of pics. He is so active it's hard to get a still shot. Plus I've been busy having fun with him.

















Edit: Notice how his fronts are crossed. Apparently he has always done that when lying.


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## gottatrot

Nice looking hooves! You've done a great job.

Roman looks sharp. My friend has that same cross and she said she didn't train her dog to do anything, she trained herself. She'd just speak to her in full sentences and explain what she wanted, and the dog figured out from her tone and body language exactly what to do. That included hopping into the truck bed and waiting there, walking next to the horse's shoulder several feet away when my friend was riding, sitting on the side of the road while cars went by, bringing gloves over in her mouth, and more.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> bringing gloves over in her mouth


Ha ha. Roman has trained me not to throw my gloves temporarily on the ground as I can expect to have only one when I go to put them back on.

I'll have to search to see if there is an owners group. I wanted a Kelpie because they are supposed to be the most heat resistant and longest travel dog. They are considered as smart as the Border Collie by some but I just wanted some of that because I've known some Border Collies.

I'm not going to hold expectations for Roman matching your friends but he is jumping into the front of the pickup after being placed there twice. He was very shy which makes me wonder if he was abused. His sister is really really shy and is being held longer before adoption. They were in home fostering. Found on a horse trail by equestrians and brought to ARF. Actually Roman followed them in but a group had to go back after his sister.

When we first raised checkens when I was young we turned them out in the daytime and had to sort of drive the stragglers back in before dark. A man down the road was moving and had a dog that he kept tied up 24/7/365 which bothered dad. The guy asked if dad wanted him and dad took him. He was never again tied. He watched us herding the chickens in from each side of the chicken house and in short order he took one side. Some would get by us but never him. Rowdy was his name. It was my job to keep turkeys from sitting on the jeep when we were feeding them. They were raise in the open with a run in. Some turkeys would be outside the fence. It was my job to put the back over usually by scaring them into flight. In short order Rowdy took over that job. Very soon dad would go to the milk barn and simply say, "go get the cows" and Rowdy brought them in.

My uncle down the road got a Border Collie that learned the names of 40 milk cows and would put any one where my uncle asked.

Those were exceptional dogs with very high IQ's. I'll be happy with average or even below. But so far he seems very smart and alert.

He accepts petting and likes it but has never yet asked to be petted. But he will hardly let me out of sight and when he does he will check on me within 15 seconds or so. I took him on a leash at first going around the horses. They were curious and investigating if he was a threat. Now he goes off the leash and smells around their feet or what ever and they just ignore him. Hondo was the first to figure out, "Oh, Harold has a new toy. Oh well.". Of course I don't think of him as a toy.

Meka is not a herding dog and has no herding instinct but after watching me she will stay behind the cattle and keep them moving when I need to go off to the side (wing) and turn one back into the group. No training, she just figured it out.

When following and looking for abandoned trials I would sometimes come to an intersection that looked to go one way and Meka would simply set at the intersection with what looked like a huge smile that said, "Okay, I'll be here when you get back". And more often than not I was back. She would normally turn and start down the trail before I even quite got back to the intersection. I only had eyes to look. I think it was her nose that tells her which way is the most used.

She seemed to figure out what I was doing from just watching.

One of the things I like to say is, "Some of my favorite people are dogs".

Got me talking about my dog..........................


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Hopefully you got a good fit.


Forgot to mention: Based on the pics and measurements I sent, they recommended 135x135 for the fronts and 130Wx135L for the hinds, and that's what I ordered. I needed no adjustment on the captivator cable. They had them set up just right. I think my earlier experience was when Hondo's foot was way out of balance, back when I had no idea at all what hoof balance even referred to. Plus based on the cable adjusting I had to do, I likely ordered the wrong size.


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## gottatrot

Actually, I was thinking Australian Cattle Dog when you said Kelpie. My friend's smart mix is Cattle Dog (Blue Heeler) and Border Collie. I'm not sure I've ever even seen a Kelpie in our part of the country, but their shape is similar to a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois. Look like great working dogs.

My Papillon is super smart too, but unfortunately he gets a little stressed about making sure everything in the world is just the way it is supposed to be. He makes himself monitor the cats' behavior and their schedule, etc. He gets mad if they knock over something. He's been known to bark at orange cones someone put in the road on our usual route because those were "wrong." 

Once he was sitting in the front seat when I was driving and he turned to the back and barked. A few moments later, my tire went flat. He'd heard me run over something that punctured the tire and knew that was wrong.

He gets very mad if I tell another animal to do something and they don't. This is why he is not allowed near when I'm lunging horses, because if I say "trot" and he is tied nearby, he goes ballistic if they don't do it immediately. If I call the cat's name and he doesn't come, the dog runs over to the cat growling. 
I call him the enforcer. 

This guy is small but he is all dog (chewing bones with my sister's little dog - also a tough outdoor dog that runs 8 miles with her).


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## Hondo

Your Papillon sounds like quite the dog!!

The Kelpie is known for running on the backs of sheep to get to the other side or front to turn them. And known for traveling long distances in the heat all day without tiring.

Roman's feet look almost deformed at close inspection because of the huge think pads. As a puppy he has been getting tired though as he is on the go a lot with me.

He was crate trained with the foster people. They said he was fine but warned that he was an early riser at 4-5 AM. No problem, so am I. There is no need for crates with my living situation. And like Meka, he has elected to wait until he leaves the yard to to do any business. So no worry about the house at all.

He got a little close to Hondo's feet yesterday, yelped and was limping but got alright. He has been running around between his legs ad under his belly with abandon. I think he'll be a little more careful now. I hope.

I have used punishment in the past for teaching NO! but wanted to avoid it. Google produced a wiki example that I really like and will do. He is so sensitive that I will absolutely refrain from all punishment including a harsh voice.

Making my bi-weekly trek to town tomorrow and will pick up some training goodies.

Pretty amazing about the flat tire. Animals know so much about their environment that we humans don't have a clue about.

The Australian Cattle Dog/Border Collie cross is a favorite among some ranchers. Around here they use a lot of Catahoulas which can be pretty vicious. There are hardly any Kelpie breeders and I looked for a long time to find a Kelpie/Border Collie cross.

I had watched some of the other videos by the guy (kid) you posted. He's fun to watch. Seems young but seems to know his stuff and gets it across in a fun way.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> I do have a couple of pics. Notice how his fronts are crossed. Apparently he has always done that when lying.


Wow, seeing those pictures sure gave me a pang.

This was my Shelby, also a rescue and BC/Kelpie/Husky - she left me a little under two years ago and I still miss her like mad:





























Give your Roman a big hug from me.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Give your Roman a big hug from me.


Just did. He says thanks.

Noticed the crossed forepaws. Maybe a Kelpie trait? But his sister didn't do that.

Your Shelby sure looks a lot like Roman. I don't see that much Husky in the build.

Roman's cross, being a rescue, is a best guess. Obvious Kelpie. The spotted front legs was the biggest indicator of Border Collie, at least to me. Of course the white belly and chest also.

His sister has even more of what I'd call Border Collie markings but seeing Shelby makes me wonder. Did you have verification on the cross or was it also a best guess?

Maybe I'll send some hair to Texas A&M to see what they say.

His sister has a strong retrieval instinct but Roman does not which a both a Border Collie and Kelpie usually does have.

Did Shelby retrieve?


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Did you have verification on the cross or was it also a best guess?
> 
> Did Shelby retrieve?


Well, verification on the cross would depend on how much you believe the word of a man who would leave a dog chained to a tree to starve to death as punishment.

Short version of the story: I worked at a rescue who used to also be the "dog pound" of the local communities. Shelby was brought in after a UPS driver made a complaint to the local sheriff about a starving dog chained to a tree. Seems the original owner - who was known to the deputy that rescued her - wanted to breed his stock dog (a BC/Kelpie) and decided the neighbor's Husky/Kelpie (an oops breeding himself, but he had balls so of course was the best choice) was just the ticket. There were 3 in the litter. One died, one was a good working dog, one was Shelby. She inherited the husky f-you work ethic, so as punishment for running off yet again, she was chained to a tree and left to die.

I never bothered to do any testing to verify the story. When she _wanted_ to, she would retrieve. She also would help me with the horses _sometimes_. She was fast as blazes and could turn on a dime and give you change when she wanted to (be that working when I asked her to or chasing something like deer on her own). You could actually see her think about the command you gave her and decide whether she was in the mood or not! The older she got, the more likely the answer was no thanks, which is why you see her tied in a lot of those pictures (we used to say her best move was 'ninja vanish' because she could be there beside you one second and be out of sight after something in the next instant).

Shelby was the epitome of the universe giving you what you need, not what you think you want.


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## Hondo

Shelby sounds a bit like Meka, my Pereneese. Sometimes they are referred as "pyrs" by owners. A joke often told is "What do you call a pyr off a leash?" Answer: A dissapyr.

Retrieve? Ha! You threw it. You want it, go get it yourself. I'm a guard dog. No time for your silliness, well, unless I feel like romping. I'll let you know. 

I took Roman on a leash the first two days but since then all of our forays have been off leash. He will go out of sight but not longer than about 15 seconds and then off again. About every 6th or so visual he'll make a close by pass and maybe a nose touch and off again. Where ever I go he MUST also go. If my chair so much as squeaks, he's up and on his feet readiy to go, when we're outside.

So his behaviour doesn't sound much like Shelby.

He still has episodes of shyness but they are decreasing. His sister is so shy they've taken her off the available list for a while. Abuse is of course suspected.

Meka trys to romp with him some in the cool of the morning but he zips around so fast that she gives up.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> A joke often told is "What do you call a pyr off a leash?" Answer: A dissapyr.
> 
> Retrieve? Ha! You threw it. You want it, go get it yourself.


Yes, this is very much how Shelby was, and also pretty similar to Huskies I have known, which is why I never doubted that part of her supposed pedigree.




Hondo said:


> I took Roman on a leash the first two days but since then all of our forays have been off leash. He will go out of sight but not longer than about 15 seconds and then off again. About every 6th or so visual he'll make a close by pass and maybe a nose touch and off again. Where ever I go he MUST also go. If my chair so much as squeaks, he's up and on his feet readiy to go, when we're outside.
> 
> He still has episodes of shyness but they are decreasing. His sister is so shy they've taken her off the available list for a while. Abuse is of course suspected.


Roman sounds like my kind of dog! I am glad you are so far away, as I would be sorely tempted by that female still at the rescue. Shelby was that way when she first came to us - if you made direct eye contact, she would roll over and urinate on herself in terror. 

@*gottatrot* how is your Papillon for recall/velcroness? I always liked the looks of that breed, but was always afraid I would step on a small dog and hurt it somehow (silly, I know).


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> how is your Papillon for recall/velcroness? I always liked the looks of that breed, but was always afraid I would step on a small dog and hurt it somehow (silly, I know).


I think your worries are valid if you have a Chihuahua or Italian greyhound. Papillons are a bit tougher.
Mine stays with me in the vicinity but is not close like velcro. My Dalmatian I had before him wanted to be so close I was always running into him. Truly like velcro. 

The breeder told me I should know that Papillons are not lap dogs. They are not. He will sit on your lap for a minute as a favor, but once he thinks he's given you enough time he gets right off. He sits next to me, or at the end of the couch, but not on me. They are fine with petting but don't like to cuddle.

Other things about their temperament: they are a bit pragmatic, so for instance, he'll be my dog but as soon as I leave he's my husband's dog, and if he stays with my mom he's hers. My Dalmatian loved me at least 50x more than anyone else in the world, and was really only happy when I was there. If your ego is OK without that, it means the dog does better in life I think.

The coat is not difficult, but I don't like trimming so I'd rather have a short-haired breed. But Papillons are spaniels so very obedient and working dogs, extremely good at learning obedience and it was so easy we got bored and never practiced. Sit, stand, down, stay, fetch, come, heel, etc. By voice he'll run close to me when running on the beach or I can release him to roam farther. He'll come when called 99% of the time and also knows "wait," and will stop dead in his tracks if I need him to. 
The one time he didn't come, the horses were being "bad," he chased Amore and got kicked in the head, skull fractures. Thankfully, he recovered completely. If they can survive that, being stepped on is not a worry.

They are not good puppies, though, and the breeder told me that too. Don't listen at all and total mischief until they hit 1 year, and then suddenly they hear everything and want to please you.

Bad teeth is the only health issue - he's had about 12 pulled but still has quite a mouthful. That is a small dog problem.
Not yappy, and a good outdoor dog, will go out in any weather and be housebroken, which many toys will not do reliably. Also, could easily run a fast 3-4 miles with me jogging, or hike for 6 miles until earlier this year when I noticed him slowing a little (will be 10 in January).

He's good with kids in that he's not grumpy and can tolerate them. But he also will defend himself if they pinch or pull, he'll nip and I let him because he's small with little teeth and I'm not sympathetic if kids get grabby. Better to learn from a small dog than a big one.
@Hondo I loved that Disapyrs joke.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Papillons are not lap dogs. They are not. He will sit on your lap for a minute as a favor, but once he thinks he's given you enough time he gets right off. He sits next to me, or at the end of the couch, but not on me. They are fine with petting but don't like to cuddle.


That's pretty much Roman which surprised me as I considered Border Collies a bit of a lap dog. He wants to be close, but just not THAT close. I'd rather have that than a dog continually begging to be petted.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> gottatrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The breeder told me I should know that Papillons are not lap dogs. They are not. He will sit on your lap for a minute as a favor, but once he thinks he's given you enough time he gets right off. He sits next to me, or at the end of the couch, but not on me. They are fine with petting but don't like to cuddle.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much Roman which surprised me as I considered Border Collies a bit of a lap dog. He wants to be close, but just not THAT close. I'd rather have that than a dog continually begging to be petted.
Click to expand...

I wonder if that is the Kelpie side coming out in Roman, as they have been very businesslike but not needy in my experience. BCs - which I would probably consider my favorite breed - are very needy as well as being very busy (which is why I have yet to own a full one, as my lifestyle just hasn't suited such a dog).

@*gottatrot* 's description of her dog sounds like a dog I would enjoy. when I am ready for another dog, that breed will def be on the list.


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## gottatrot

Well, I'm not a "fair weather" rider, but haven't been out riding this week. There was a brief moment this afternoon when I could have rushed out, but fighting a sore throat, I decided to wait until tomorrow.

As I was driving past the road where Brave and Cass' owner lives today, I saw her pulling in with the horse trailer. I texted her, asking if she'd been out riding in the rain and kicking myself for being wimpy. But she said she'd trailered over to a nearby indoor arena, so didn't win the tough rider award after all.

We've had 2 inches of rain since Monday, and periods with 60 mph winds, hail and lightning. At these times I have to remind myself why I board somewhere with no indoor arena. 

In our area, those places without enough pasture space keep horses in stalls when it gets very wet, not wanting their properties churned into mud. Those with enough pasture for turnout do not have shelters, so they still keep horses inside on days when it is a constant downpour.

My barn is one of the very few with adequate pasture space plus shelters, so the horses can be out every day of the year. But no indoor arena. That's OK, I've come off horses plenty of times riding in indoor arenas during bad storms. It's even more fun when you take a hot horse such as an Arab or TB, keep them in a stall for a couple days due to the storm, and then bring them out and try to ride them during said storm.

Those huge metal doors that pull away from the side of the building and then bang loudly against it, the plastic that rips away from a feed bag in the aisle and comes flying through the arena, the wet horse blanket that someone suddenly throws over the arena door, the cat that is hiding inside the wall from the storm and suddenly leaps out, the pounding hail on the tin roof, the sudden power outage where you find yourself hurtling through the pitch black while astride a horse....oh, the fun. I guess I don't miss it so much after all. 

I managed to trim the naughty barn goats, since if I don't get to them at least once a month their little hooves start to rot away. Another animal well suited to dry weather. One is hard to catch, the other tries to bite me as I trim. Cute. 

Last night was the first time I massaged Sizzler's back and found the muscles feeling soft to begin with instead of cramped up and hard. Progress. The first couple of times it was painful even though I started out gently, and he kept pacing away from me. 

The last several nights he has come to meet me, and then once I started, lowered his nose down by his pasterns and closed his eyes. Pretty obvious that it feels good to him. 
I have no technique or idea of what to do, just try to use pressure and rubbing like I would on a human's muscles. It seems to work fine.


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## gottatrot

It was nice enough to ride today...finally!
Got Rascal and Nala out to the beach. The video for some reason only recorded 11 minutes, so missed the "exciting" parts which came later in the ride. 

The good was that we did some great trot work, Rascal was calm most of the time, and had the best/longest canter so far. 
He struggles still with balance going into the canter (at 1:39 on the video we pick it up), and you can tell from the footage how silly and lurching it is - he has to also adjust his balance by hopping up now and then. But that was a lot of strides, which was great.

The second canter, Nala was farther ahead. We picked it up at 2:30 on the video but I had to break him down immediately because he didn't catch his balance and also both body and mind began to accelerate. I don't want to lose him at this point, or fall into the "supermassive black hole." 

A couple minutes later, I almost got bucked off. Nala came around and her rider was going to trot her next to us over a small log. Except Nala suddenly decided to come over it like she was dropping into a water jump.









Rascal is still in "shadow" mode: when startled, he mimics another horse to be safe. So he immediately bucked into a leap with that same posture over nothing, twisting to one side. His timing was so fast that they almost made the move together, like dolphins leaping. As he was rising, I watched Nala's leap out of the corner of my eye. 
I caught him, but was slightly sideways so if he'd kept bucking I might have come off. Obviously, he thought Nala had seen something and was leaping out of the way and possibly galloping off. 

Everything else went fairly well, a couple startles, a small spook. But I've learned his "go to" move is bucking. The sand was too deep, his hind end slipped a tiny bit, he threw in a little buck. That happened twice so we moved out to the hard sand.

Going up the big dune off the beach, I kept him to a walk, but it was very deep after the storms. That made Rascal insecure, so when we were almost to the top and he took a sliding step, he threw in two bucks, the second one quite big enough to pop me off the saddle. It was straight though, thankfully, so I came down like we'd landed a jump.

So he got a few reprimands...we can't have Rascal bucking because probably every one of those he did today would have thrown off Nala's rider's BF. Probably I should have let him go a little faster up the dune, but my intention is to not let him learn to race up, so he won't try it with beginners. 

Well, Nala's rider and I are setting out to make this OTTB a beginner horse. A worthy goal at least? I'm slightly lenient, trying to help him get his balance and not feel trapped, trying to get his mind working and relaxed.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot When you speak of helping a horse get his balance are you talking about with a rider as opposed to without a rider? I read somewhere that horses have to balance their rider just like a human carrying another human on the back.

I also read somewhere that horses achieve the ability to do flying lead changes during the first week in life and that all the rider has to do is teach the vocabulary and then ask at the right time.

Don't forget, these comments/questions are from and aged rider that mostly only walks.


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## bsms

From what I've seen...Mia needed help with her balance, period. She obviously had almost no experience cantering in a straight line (versus always turning in a corral). Her first few attempts at cantering in the open (admittedly with a rider) resulted in her generating too much thrust with her hind legs for the stride length of the front legs, and she almost drove us into the ground. So I'd pull her up and we would try again. It was scary enough that we didn't work at it consistently very long, but she figured it out soon enough. However, for whatever reason, she had always understood how to GALLOP.

When I got him, Bandit would hurdle himself into a canter. His previous owner weighs well over 200 lbs, and he had been ridden long by guys weighing 260 plus. If you look at how a horse's back needs to move in a canter, and how they transition, it is obvious WHY he hurdled himself into a canter. An 800 lb horse with up to 300 lbs on his back would need to explode into a canter, initially, until his rider got into the rhythm. And a horse ridden like that at a sitting trot would obviously learn the importance of bracing his back rigid. Self-defense.

Something I love about Caprilli and the teaching of a forward seat is its emphasis on the rider matching the horse's natural balance as much as possible. That is part of why I really like riding in two point. When you are standing in the stirrups on a maneuvering horse, you either match his balance....or you don't remain standing in the stirrups!

Except for horses like Mia, who seems to have lived in a corral for the first 7 years of her life, the horse knows how to balance efficiently without us. Our weight on the back creates a new puzzle to solve. And how the rider rides means the horse may have a simple puzzle to solve, or a hard one.


> The military horse must be essentially accustomed to the field, since it is here that the cavalry must perform in war, uneven and varying terrain should be as familiar to the rider as it is to the horse...
> 
> ...Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, throughout which he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse, and tries not to impede him m the natural development of his aptitudes and energies....if necessary persuade him with firmness and energy to do the rider's will, while leaving him full liberty to avail himself of and to use as best it suits him his balance and his strength. From this fundamental and unchanging principle stem all the practical rules of equitation with which I shall deal. . . .
> 
> . . . the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. - Federico Caprilli, 1906


PS: I can only dream of having such a place to ride! But I assume it is also like my arena in some ways - that a stretch of beach that looks firm could have pockets of very soft sand? Bandit nearly stumbled with my DIL riding him the other day. They had a very short canter, and as she slowed him he did a sharp turn in a trot - which he often does. But this time he hit something with one foot, a small hole perhaps? He lurched to recover, scaring my DIL. She stayed on but it unnerved her.

Cowboy and Trooper are not 'soft' horses. But they have had a lot of experience on rough ground and are very sure-footed. I don't think Bandit's experience was as broad. He's improving, but we keep a lot of slopes short. One of my main fears in riding isn't falling off, but falling with.

PSS: I see no signs Bandit knows how to do a flying lead change with a rider. Given how much he was ridden at above 30% of his weight, he may have 'learned' it is too dangerous to try. I think poor riding, early on, can teach a horse a lot of bad habits.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> @gottatrot When you speak of helping a horse get his balance are you talking about with a rider as opposed to without a rider? I read somewhere that horses have to balance their rider just like a human carrying another human on the back.


Yes, exactly. As @bsms said, the horse has to adapt to carrying a rider, but some horses also have not learned balance even without a rider. Of course, every horse has the basic ability to stay upright most of the time when running around the pasture, and they teach themselves flying changes, rollbacks, and other maneuvers. But conformation and experience play a big role in how the horse will move.

One thing I've learned about off the track horses is that they sometimes miss out on an important part of development. When they're still young and not fully neurologically developed, they are put in stalls and brought out to run on groomed or man-made surfaces. The long bones are still growing, so the nerves are too. If the horse is not given a full range of experiences with his body, some of the connections that seem intuitive later in life do not develop yet.

Rascal is ahead of the game because he has been in fields for awhile since being off track. I worked with another horse that went from flat track to a flat paddock and indoor arena. When we brought him out on trails, he had grown into an adult without the experience of surfaces dropping away or being deep or hilly, so stumbled frequently from putting his legs down wrong. It was "neurological," but not only developmentally. His brain had to develop the neural response through experience like a clumsy teenager does.

Just looking at Rascal before ever riding him, we could see that he had a weak hind end. He also is built slightly downhill. I don't think his hind is structurally weak, but he had no real cause to use those muscles very hard in his prior environment (small paddock).

When we put him on the lunge line, he had difficulty balancing at the canter. So it was not surprising that his first attempts at cantering with a rider were awkward. I've expected him to buck from the beginning, because I've found that is a natural response to balance/fitness problems in inexperienced horses. 

I'm gauging his hind end strength by how he feels walking down small hills. As long as he was worried and trying to rush down those, I knew his hind was not strong enough to provide really good balance.

Horses get plenty of cantering under saddle on the track. But Rascal had growth after that time, and may have ended up more downhill, but also definitely now has a heavier body at maturity. 

So what we are asking him to do is hard - adjusting for surfaces from grass to deep sand (in the winter the dry sand often blows up into drifts and gets much deeper). And he has to carry weight now and learn to balance it. 

When I say I am helping Rascal get his balance, I am basically trying to get him to find a pace where it feels like he has some balance and rhythm, and to hold it for longer periods of time with a rider. If he wants to lower his head and rush forward, I'm trying to get him to pick it up and go slower, which is harder for him but necessary for the rider so he can be stopped. And if I want him to stop and rate his speed at different gaits, he'll have to know how to bring his balance point back with a rider. 

I am positive if I let Rascal build up speed and lower his front end, he'd soon be galloping fine. Except for the fact that he does not know how to get off that front end in order to do more than rudimentary steering, or to rock back and avoid a sudden hole or log before stumbling into it. Probably it would work out fine once or twice, but could end up dangerous in the long run so I want to teach him how to rate, turn and feel very balanced before we build any speed. 

Also very importantly, I've read and learned that the muscles get into shape very quickly in a matter of weeks, but it takes months for the tendons and ligaments to strengthen and adapt to work. So galloping Rascal full on right now could cause a tendon pull if he stepped wrong in the sand. People often think I am overly cautious, but I try to think big picture and not just about one ride.


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## Hondo

Good stuff! I'm lucky in that Hondo, and the rest of the herd, basically live as feral horses except they are gentled. I had an experienced rider behind me in the hills comment on how Hondo 'placed' his feet rather than just moving them forward. I've seen him reach over and place a fore over on a nice flat spot way to the side when straight ahead didn't look so good. Had him slide down a 3-4 ft. steep rock slope with his fores and not move his hinds until he hit bottom with his fores.

Hondo has me so spoiled. I feel so safe on him on the side of a mountain. If something does not look safe to him, he has some mule genes in there somewhere that comes out that says, nope, I don't think so. But we get there, albeit by a route of his choosing. And I am proud that he has learned I listen to him.

The people at your barn are lucky to have you available to help!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> . So galloping Rascal full on right now could cause a tendon pull if he stepped wrong in the sand. People often think I am overly cautious, but I try to think big picture and not just about one ride.


Its amazing how many people don't understand that risk. Sand is super tricky footing, as it can be either pretty wonderful (wet, well packed, and smooth like down by the water) or the worst ever (deep, uneven sugar sand like the dunes). We don't have much sand in general around here, except for parts of New Jersey. It always has me shaking my head that people see Jersey as "flat and easy - it's all sand," and then come away with horses with soft tissue injuries.

I always wonder if those people have never been to a beach themselves, as how could they not know the difference between the dunes and the water's edge?!




Hondo said:


> I had an experienced rider behind me in the hills comment on how Hondo 'placed' his feet rather than just moving them forward. I've seen him reach over and place a fore over on a nice flat spot way to the side when straight ahead didn't look so good. Had him slide down a 3-4 ft. steep rock slope with his fores and not move his hinds until he hit bottom with his fores.


That is such a great thing - to have a horse who is so careful with his feet! While I think any horse can learn, I do think a horse raised on complex terrain will always be ahead of one raised on flat or in a small pen.


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## Hondo

I was riding along on a narrow wooded trail when Hondo abruptly stopped. Then I felt his bootie shaking. I looked around and one hind had caught in the fork of a branch on the ground. He was calmly shaking his foot around waiting for it to fall off, which it did, and then he continued down the trail without being asked. 

Hey, AnitaAnne on another thread has me looking at a Barefoot treeless. Know anything about them from your endurance forays? She is sold on them.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Hey, AnitaAnne on another thread has me looking at a Barefoot treeless. Know anything about them from your endurance forays? She is sold on them.


They are a well-known brand of treeless not uncommon at endurance rides. The Torsion I have is the same basic premise, just not as well-marketed. They are good quality, but treeless is not an one-saddle-fits-all as some people like to think. With treeless, you not only need to pay very close attention to the saddle itself, but also to the pad used.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> They are a well-known brand of treeless not uncommon at endurance rides. The Torsion I have is the same basic premise, just not as well-marketed. They are good quality, but treeless is not an one-saddle-fits-all as some people like to think. With treeless, you not only need to pay very close attention to the saddle itself, but also to the pad used.


Thanks, I'm interested in and appreciate your experience since very few riders put trail equipment to the test that endurance riders do.

So question: Providing the gullet/pommel can be changed, what type of horse would a treeless not be suitable for? One I'm guessing would be a horse with a prominent spine that even the best treeless could not clear.

And question #2: Does the pad of choice add to and help in the spine clearance? I think you said you use a Sitko.

#3: What do you think about using a Supracor with either the Barefoot or your Torsion. I'm really hooked on the Supracor for a couple of reasons. Have you seen the Supracor successfully used with either of those?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> So question: Providing the gullet/pommel can be changed, what type of horse would a treeless not be suitable for? One I'm guessing would be a horse with a prominent spine that even the best treeless could not clear.
> 
> And question #2: Does the pad of choice add to and help in the spine clearance? I think you said you use a Sitko.


The "wide load" horses have the best backs for treeless since they already have some spine protection built in. But it can feel very wide to the rider. I rode a massive draft horse treeless once and it was like doing the splits. The saddle takes on the shape of the horse and the design of the barefoot does not really add any twist. It is probably better for people with longer legs. 

It's hard to describe, but the seat on a treed saddle lifts you up. Say you were sitting on the letter "A," and the closer you can sit to the pointy top, the more your legs can hang close together. The farther you go down to the base, the wider your legs are. 

That's one reason I like the Ghost, the seat has some structure that raises the rider up, so you get a little "twist" to allow your legs to hang down. I had a Freeform that felt too wide, and one similar to a barefoot in design that also was wide. You can buy seat risers for many saddles now to help. 
Here is the structure of the Ghost that helps add the lift.









Now imagine you have the wide treeless that fits the horse's back, but if you're heavier you can squash down the soft panels too much so you're touching the horse's spine. They're working on making the channels out of materials that don't compress much. But if you do compress the panels, you need to add a pad underneath that has added panel depth to clear the spine. So now imagine how wide your saddle is! 

On the saddle I had with the interchangeable pommel, I could never get it wide enough for Amore so I just took it out and put soft foam inside. That is one option for a Barefoot saddle if your horse is very wide, removes any pressure point.
https://www.barefootsaddlesusa.com/Barefoot_Soft_Pommel_Inserts_p/soft-ein.htm
You have to understand that the pommel is only there to provide some structure to the saddle, but it doesn't affect the channel width. It's the padding on the underside that provides that clearance.

So here you can see the clearance in a Barefoot:
What you can do to test the clearance is put a rope inside the channel and sit in the saddle, then see if you can move it around freely in that space on the horse. If it squashes down, then you try adding a pad to add to the channel height such as a Skito (with my Ghost, my weight does not compress the channel so I can use any pad).









In my mind, the panel design of Ghost and Freeform saddles are better because they velcro on so you can move them farther apart for horses that need a wider space for the spine. 









Freeform:









The pommel area is not much of a consideration, as long as it is high enough and the design of the saddle does not allow it to press on the shoulders when it is cinched up. You can take a treeless and lay it absolutely flat on the floor.

With a good treeless I feel very secure and have no worries about the horse's back. The drawback I found was one I don't think most people would have, which was galloping a strong horse. In two point, the tree is part of the base of support you have to use for strength when up in two point.


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## Hondo

Wow! That was a bunch of detailed and important information that took a while to write. Thanks very much.

Hondo is pretty wide at his processes. I went a full 4.5 inches on his channel and that with the bars also tapered up some. Looking at the back of the Barefoot I do have concerns that the if the panels squashed too much they could encroach on his processes. Then what would I do? Waited 2 months for the saddle, spent a bunch of money, and it winds up too narrow.

I had to strain my self control to the max last night to stop from bidding on a used Barefoot that was at only $250.

I looked at the Freeform site also last night but did not understand how the velcro worked. Like, what?......velcro? But now I see it is a super good idea. I also read that there was a high rate of winners on the Tevis using Freeform. But from another sport I was involved in, I know top competitors often recieve free equipment and other incentives from sponsors. Winners sell products.

I did notice that multiple seats could be purchased for the Freeform for different sized riders, children to adults. Thought about your modular saddle.

I can see where two point could be a problem on a wide horse. But with my abused knees two point is not something I do. And even posting is out unless I learn to do it bareback style.

I've learned that a bit of a chair seat is the best for my knees for long rides, really any ride. I've ridden Hondo bareback, until he spun out from under me, and I really liked the feel. I did tend to move my leg forward and ride more on my thigh. My very first horseback riding in the late '60s was bareback. Winter in Pagosa Springs, CO makes that warm horse really feel good!

I guess the biggest most important thing, to me, that I've gotten from your post is that if I want to be assured being able to use my "precious" Supracor, I'd need a treeless with adjustable panels.

I've just been over on the Ghost and Badlands sight and whew, there's a bunch of information to digest! But the Ghost is looking pretty good to me. Price wise and otherwise. I'd probably get the Western so I could stay "undercover" out here. Fenders would run the weight up some I'd think. They don't show a weight on that saddle. But it'd be less than half of what I've got.


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## Hondo

Google just lead be to your old thread on the Ghost that I'd missed.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-reviews/ghost-treeless-saddles-686354/

You mention at the end that Barefoot makes stiffer panel inserts for heavier riders. Can that be done on the Ghost? I just weighed myself fully dressed at 178 lbs.


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## Hondo

Google just led me to your old thread on the Ghost.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-reviews/ghost-treeless-saddles-686354/

At the end you mention that the Barefoot has stiffer inserts for heavier riders. Can that be done with the Ghost also? I just weighed myself fully dressed at 178 lbs.

Edit: Not trying to take over your thread but found this: I have tested with a 225lb rider and there was no chance of losing the spine clearance with the stiffer, thicker, cushier panel. (Note, I still don't recommend treeless for that weight although we've now had success with 190-200lbs for casual riding.)

https://www.badlandsequine.com/page/2487/Panels


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> So question: Providing the gullet/pommel can be changed, what type of horse would a treeless not be suitable for? One I'm guessing would be a horse with a prominent spine that even the best treeless could not clear.
> 
> And question #2: Does the pad of choice add to and help in the spine clearance? I think you said you use a Sitko.
> 
> #3: What do you think about using a Supracor with either the Barefoot or your Torsion. I'm really hooked on the Supracor for a couple of reasons. Have you seen the Supracor successfully used with either of those?


#1: Certainly a shark-finned wither would present a challenge. Also a challenge are horses which lack muscle immediately behind the wither/shoulder as even a treeless saddle can bridge without special attention to padding. Very round horses with no withers can make treeless feel very unstable, as they can rock side to side (and mounting from the ground can be just about impossible).

Additionally, some horses don't seem to care for the concussion on their backs over long periods. That is the issue we found with Sultan and George using a BMSS and then the Torsion. I know of some friends who had issues of white hair developing under where the stirrup bars are, despite no obvious soreness in their horses. We were seeing the issues at and after competitions, so the saddles may have been just fine for 'casual' riding.. but for us, they did not work for distance on those specific horses. But I can name you multiple people who ride distance very successfully in various treeless saddles - riders of all shapes and sizes.


#2: Most pads intended to use with treeless saddles do provide additional spinal clearance with the use of inserts. We mainly use Skitos, though also have a Toklat and an Equipedic, all with inserts.


#3: Personally, I have never laid eyes on a Supracor. I know they have a good reputation with endurance riders. A good friend uses one under her Pandora - I will have to ask if she has ever used it under her Freeform.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> I know of some friends who had issues of white hair developing under where the stirrup bars are,


There is one manufacturer, forget which, that mentions their stirrup straps connect at each side rather than over the top. They didn't mention "how" it was attached. I can see if a non-soft bar was used within soft material that could be a problem.

I didn't think they would be stiff enough for bridging. Guess that was what the sweat pattern and pressure readouts were about.

When I learned that some manufactures used velcro to attach panels that could be adjusted, it dawned on me why not attach some velcro and panels to the Supracor and and then shim those as desired.

Thanks for the feedback. One thing about me, there are runners, joggers, and hikers. Hondo and I are hikers with very little of the terrain we cover being suitable for either running or jogging, by people or horses.

As I sit here thinking about what you've said, I can see a treeless showing great clearance and perfect fit but when the pressure/release over the weight bearing portion continues long enough how it could give way and start banging on the spine, then recover later without the problem being discovered.

I have noticed that some of the better treeless saddles mention "our new improved etc", Tends to make one think they are still learning.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> There is one manufacturer, forget which, that mentions their stirrup straps connect at each side rather than over the top. They didn't mention "how" it was attached. I can see if a non-soft bar was used within soft material that could be a problem.
> 
> I didn't think they would be stiff enough for bridging. Guess that was what the sweat pattern and pressure readouts were about.
> 
> When I learned that some manufactures used velcro to attach panels that could be adjusted, it dawned on me why not attach some velcro and panels to the Supracor and and then shim those as desired.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. One thing about me, there are runners, joggers, and hikers. Hondo and I are hikers with very little of the terrain we cover being suitable for either running or jogging, by people or horses.
> 
> As I sit here thinking about what you've said, I can see a treeless showing great clearance and perfect fit but when the pressure/release over the weight bearing portion continues long enough how it could give way and start banging on the spine, then recover later without the problem being discovered.
> 
> I have noticed that some of the better treeless saddles mention "our new improved etc", Tends to make one think they are still learning.


I'd say treeless have come a very long way, but still have room for improvement. The earliest models were basically a bareback pad with stirrups, with only the pad providing spinal clearance.

They are not my first choice, but can be so helpful for many situations. As with Halla, whose muscle behind the shoulder was massive but also much bigger on one side. 

When she picks up her leg, the muscle behind the shoulder is pushed back under the saddle panels. 
This is her smaller side:








With many horses, that part of the latissimus dorsi muscle is not so pronounced and is not affected by the shoulder muscle. On her, it is big enough that the shoulder pushes against it instead of sliding over and this in turn pushes it under the saddle. 
This is a sad pic, but you can see the anatomy of that muscle on her from when she was starved, and why having one side larger made saddle fitting so hard.








Using an asymmetrical pad under a treed saddle only goes so far, and that kind of problem is made worse by having the saddle sit canted to one side. With the treeless, it improved dramatically because the saddle moved with her and the muscles didn't push it to one side. 
Eventually she became even enough that I could ride her in a treed and have it sit straight, but it took several years to figure all that out. The first two years she was ridden we just put the stirrup one hole longer on one side or else the saddle would get pulled over.

All of that is a long explanation for why treeless saddles can be invaluable for some horses.

I've never used one that was soft enough that the stirrup attachment could have applied pressure from the hard material going through the softer material onto the horse's back. But with a flexible material, the footprint is always going to put higher pressure under the rider's weight rather than spreading it out like a tree does. It wouldn't have to involve the actual spine if there was enough weight applied to a small enough area. 

The only way a treeless could spread the weight evenly along the entire panel is if the horse had a perfectly flat back so the panels didn't bow under the weight of the rider. There will always be some bowing, since it is flexible. So you can't get around the fact that weight distribution will be less with a treeless. Whether that weight on that much area of back is too much depends on the particular horse and rider, and what they are doing. 
That's not technically "bridging," but it is more like "swaying." LOL. 

I would suspect that Hondo would have a good back for treeless. Amore has a perfect back for treeless. It is wide and round and the spine is level with her back muscles. Since it is level from front to back, the rider can't bow the treeless onto her back and the panels distribute the weight as much as a flexible panel can.


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## Hondo

When I was forming the thermal Kydex bar to Hondo's back I would lay it in place on his back and get him to walk along with me holding it on. That's when I learned how much their back actually does move around. Not much for certain, but it's moving and rippling all the time.

That's what got me to musing about the holy grail of the greatest area produces the least force. While this is true, basic arithmetic, it is again applying engineering to horses in a way that may not apply. It may apply, but I'm just questioning it in the spirit of the man that said, "The unquestioned answer is more dangerous than the unanswered question."

The masseuse uses a lot more than 1.5 PSI. But cell death does not start until after 2 hours of over 1.5 PSI, some say an even lower pressure. But with that back rippling and moving, if the saddle is even across the back with no high spots that don't get relief, I'm puzzling if there is indeed a problem. Riding a horse with a well fitting saddle that calculates out at over 1.5 PSI still might not be a problem unless they just sit there for 2 hours.

Pay no attention to this. I'm just thinking.

......................................................................................................................

Sad picture of Halla??? I remember that picture from her tribute. If she were here she'd say that is a picture of the happiest day of her life!!!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Sad picture of Halla??? I remember that picture from her tribute. If she were here she'd say that is a picture of the happiest day of her life!!!


Aww, yes, for me too. A second horse that changed my life. 

Your thoughts about pressure are interesting, and so individualized to be unknowable perhaps. 

But something to think about: pressure doesn't have to be constant to cause damage. I understand the concept we often think about is the idea of unrelieved pressure hindering the circulation, which causes tissue death after a couple of hours. That's how humans get pressure ulcers from laying in one spot. 

But I could take my fist and lightly hit it against a fleshy part of your body, and one or five hits would not give you a bruise. But if I came back and hit that spot over and over for an hour, it will cause inflammation and pain. 

So it can be that one rider might be a little lighter, on a horse with broad back muscles, and/or the horse's motion plus the rider's technique plus the balance and padding on the saddle mean the horse is extremely comfortable. In that type of case, I think a horse prefers the light weight of the saddle and being able to move the back so well in a treeless.
Speaking of weight, I can carry my Ghost saddle with three fingers through the pommel. I believe it weighs around 8 lbs.

But another rider may be slightly heavier (or even the same weight), but the horse has different movement and the back muscles are not quite so strong, and the rider maybe lands a bit harder. In that case, the treed saddle might feel much better to the horse.

I took some pictures of Sizzler's back tonight. His muscles are soft now in the areas I've been massaging. I gave him a couple days off to see if they would stay OK, and he was not tender at all to pressure. 
However, you can see how the poor horse has a terrible back for saddling and can't just have any western saddle thrown on him (as has probably been done his whole life). 

He has a roach which probably makes any tilt from having the saddle too far forward even worse. I believe ideally he'd only be ridden english in a short saddle, in order to avoid that area altogether. Probably the spine is fused there, according to this article (which makes you really want to buy an OTTB, JK).
https://thehorsesback.com/ex-racehorse-problems/



















I hadn't really touched his sacroiliac area, since I'd noted it was even on each side. But tonight I massaged there too and realized that his sacroiliac area feels extremely tight and rock hard. When I started working on it he put his head down and looked relieved like I'd found another really sore spot. 
This poor horse. Serious musculoskeletal issues. It's impossible to know which came with him from the track, which might have been related to poor conformation, and which were exacerbated throughout life by his riders. 

How many horses are out there suffering because people can't fit saddles to them? It's entirely understandable that Sizzler has a history of being hot and anxious when ridden. Does he really have "separation anxiety," or does his natural preservation instinct make him not want to leave the herd and be ridden, because riding for him equals pain? Pain = danger. Pain means you are injured or sick and might get eaten. Danger means you need the herd for protection. 

I was thinking today about some of those working on relationships with horses. A good way to get a horse to trust you is to figure out what causes him pain and anxiety and help that go away. Plus if you dole out carrots, horses seem to like you too. My friends Amore and Halla sure trust me a lot, and Sizzler is starting to as well.


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## Hondo

That was quite a post @gottatrot and has thrown me into deep think.

No, that article does NOT make me want to run out and purchase an OTTB. I think of high school kids and football. Stressing stuff before it matures. It's bad enough overstressing even after stuff matures.

The article makes horse racing look somewhat like dog and rooster fighting.

Schleese was talking about impacts to the spinal process saying that the tendon on the back of the hand could be tapped a few times with no discomfort but if continued for a few minutes pain would develop. And now you say the same is true for muscles. I'll be cogitating about this.

Makes sense. I guess anything that the body does, including just walking, for both horse and human, causes at least some damage. The trick is that the body be allowed to repair the damage before the damage becomes extensive enough to not be repairable.

I've have sort of known all this for sometime but your comments shed a brighter light on it.

I've been subscribed to The Horse's Back for a while but had not read that article. I would need to see line drawings of normal compared to abnormal on a lot of that stuff to really comprehend most of it. But I got the idea, boy did I!

If there was some round about way to get the owner to read the article, that would be good for the horse.

I particularly liked your new twist on the herd bound horse. Such deeply complicated animals!


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## bsms

Mia had a roached back, not severe. The vet's guess was that it came from having rolled over on a rock sometime. It wasn't likely a saddle issue since she had had little or no riding when she came, and she came with it.

That is why SouthernTrails (Kevin) had my saddle designed with the rear skirts lifting. The saddle makers said the tree wouldn't be a problem, but they cut and tied the skirts so the saddle creates an empty space at the rear. Since the skirts are not weight-bearing, I wonder why all western saddles don't do that. It makes the saddle look like it is always lifting at the rear, regardless of the tree. But with heavy leather skirts, wouldn't you always want to err on the side of too much lift at the rear?

My initial thought about the punching analogy was that if your saddle punches the horse, you have serious problems! But then...if you look at the pressure readings typical with western saddles, it seems a lot of horses ARE punched every time they try to use their shoulders. The makers can flare the bars out, but I've had people tell me the flare allows the saddle to be placed ON the shoulder!

Now...with Cowboy and the FQHB saddle, that is actually what we do. The rear 3/4 of the saddle end up holding the front 25% off and away from Cowboy's narrow shoulders. I can slide my fingers into the gap between saddle and horse. Which reduces the load-bearing area...but a 13 hand pony has limited 'load-bearing' area on his back anyways.

Like shoeing/trimming, saddle fit is an onion with many layers. Most will never try to understand it at depth, just as I pretty much have decided I trust my farrier and will let him tell me what my horse's feet need (or not!)

I do think a lot of western saddle fit issues could be resolved acceptably by

A) Make sure the saddle fit & placement don't interfere with the shoulder muscles, and 

B) Dismount once in a while (60-90 minutes) and walk with a loose saddle for 5 minutes.

As I've watched Bandit change his canter with a 2" difference in saddle placement, I wonder how often western horses move heavy on the fore due more to poor saddling than to poor conformation. Although the breeding for individual sports and human judging thereof is another can of worms!


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## Zexious

You're a wealth of information, gottatrot :')!


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## Hondo

Here's a picture of Dragon and his full little sister Dolly. They both have about the same width at the shoulders as Hondo and wide backs so they could probable benefit from a good treeless also. They are close enough that the same treeless saddle would easily fit all three. Haven't measured up Dolly's back but Dragons is exactly the same as Hondo's with about 1/2 inch les rock or dip in the middle.

I brought Dolly into the field because big brother Dragon is the only horse on the ranch that will share hay and water with Dolly. They both love people.


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## egrogan

@Hondo, the buckskin, not sure which is which, looks so much like my new mare - down to the tiny little white star!


















(Sorry for the off-topic post!)


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## Hondo

@gottatrot allows off topic. That said, anything horse is ON topic to her I'm certain.

The little 4 YO mare is a real sweetheart and looks very much like her dad who was a registered QH with lines that traced to 2 eyed or 3 eyed Jack. Don't know how far back but he was supposed to be somebody big.

Chance, her dad, has the longest mane I've ever seen in real life.

Mom is Molly, a black and white paint Mo Foxtrotter. She is super super wide.

The nose and mouth is strikingly similar. Don't know if you can see that in Dolly.


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## gottatrot

Oh yes, I'm a rambler myself so appreciate having different topics come up to think about.

I've rarely seen a dappled buckskin, and now you have pictures of two. It's climbing the list of my favorite colors.









In fact, I've thought for awhile that if I get a mini horse that I'd get a silver dapple. No smart person will choose a riding horse by color, but it's likely with a mini you can pick one that is cute and a nice color, and it will turn out well. 









But now I'm thinking I might like a sooty or dappled buckskin even more.









I am guessing Two Eyed Jack is the famous relative of Dragon and Dolly.
https://www.aqha.com/museum/hall-of-fame/horses/t/two-eyed-jack/
@Zexious, thank you for the compliment. I want to keep seeking and learning and discussion really helps me with that process.


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## egrogan

The color is growing on me @*gottatrot* . I do think Morgans should be bay, but Fizz is a pretty girl (as Dolly appears to be). 

I haven't spent much time learning about color genetics, but Fizz is by a cremello stallion out of a dark bay mare. She has a half sister who is bay. She had a bay filly this year by a palomino stallion. Lots of colors swirling around in this family!

When I close my eyes and think of my "dream horse," it's a lanky dapple grey Thoroughbred mare. To me that's about as classic a look as you can get. I love that silver dapple you posted above.


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## Zexious

Maybe it's my "child at heart" mentality, but I love buckskins. I think it's such a stunning color <3
Thank you for all the eye candy!!
(And congrats on your new baby, @egrogan!)


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## Hondo

Okay, here's my (logic?).

Pictured below is the cutout of Hondo behind his shoulders placed on Hondo, Dragon, and Dolly.

Weighing the possibility that I could, maybe, possibly, ride Dragon and Dolly at some point, a Ghost saddle would clearly fit the minor differences in each horse thereby reducing the price of the Ghost to 1/3, one saddle for each horse.

I mean, that DOES make some sense, doesn't it??


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## Dragoon

If you have multiple horses available for you to ride, and clearly care about how their potential saddles fit them, then a Ghost saddle seems the most logical choice. And not just from the financial standpoint of buying each horse their own fitted saddle. There is the consideration that their backs will change from season to season and with their ages and fitness levels. 

Its mind boggling really, just caring for one riding horse over time...let alone having more horses available to you.

I'm seriously considering a Ghost as well, for these same reasons. The neglected TB I'm riding is unrecognizable from pictures of her just one year ago. Her body changes so fast! She went from atrophied to getting some muscle, then obese when the BO put her in a pasture with round bale 24\7 (and mystery lameness for two months), then built like a tank when I when I was able to ride her this fall. Now it is winter in Canada, and with little riding, she seems to be shrinking again...I'm reluctant to ride her now because I'm convinced her tack is hurting her currently. I need something forgiving. I hope the Ghost is it.

My own pony is aged, swaybacked and the stoic type. I worry about how his back is changing all the time. The vet said he would let me know if he was hurting, but I am not so sure. He's so good and giving. Unlike the TB, who is very quick and clear about her opinions!


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## Hondo

@Dragoon Agree with all of your comments and the farther I slide into saddle fit nerdom the even more I agree.

A couple of years ago I was talking on the phone with the owner of Outfitters Supply. He said he had two saddles for his own saddle horse. One for the spring after winter and one for later in the summer. One has to wonder if either saddle fit really really well in between.

Dolly is a four year old and still growing. And is overweight. They are all overweight. Hondo slim's right down when he's ridden a lot, as they all do or would. Neither Dragon nor Dolly have ever been ridden.

I gotta say that a quality treeless is looking better and better despite the possible mounting difficulties.


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## horseluvr2524

I've mentioned before that I bought the Protector (revamped version of Corrector) saddle pad. I've been using it for a year and a half with great success. It can be an alternative to a fitted saddle or a treeless, for those with saddle problems. Got it for my mare (I saw gottatrot explain in another thread what an A-frame back is, and I believe my mare has one), and she went from short stepping under saddle and signs of muscle atrophy near the wither, to extended strides, happily galloping, floating across the ground at all gaits. No more soreness or pain or sour looks, and I got to keep the saddle I love.

While I wouldn't rely on the Protector to correct a badly fitting saddle, I believe it will definitely perfect the fit for minor issues on an overall well fitting saddle. It may greatly improve, or even give you a darn near perfect fit, on even just an OK fitting saddle. (I define "perfect fit" by how the horse acts and moves under saddle and whether there are signs of saddle sores and other problems).

The maker of the Protector saddle pad has a horrid website design. He is also _highly_ opinionated, but I just take that as he really believes in his product and the well being of horses and riders. As per usual "don't drink the kool-aid". Take what you like and what works and leave the rest.

The buckskins are gorgeous! @gottatrot should totally get a mini and keep it in her backyard :razz:


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## Zexious

I had not heard of a ghost saddle until this thread--how interesting!
Let us know what route you choose to go, @Hondo.


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## Hondo

If Nike can 3-D print a custom pair of shoes for an Olympic winner and NFL why can't they scan my horse's back and print me a saddle? :cowboy:

https://247sports.com/nfl/oakland-r...ade-from-Nike-from-3D-printed-shoes-111065909


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## gottatrot

Great idea, use a 3D printer to make the perfect custom tree.

Finally got out for a ride again today. I had the cold that @Egrogan, @Bsms, and whoever else had recently wink. Made it in to all my work shifts but that was all the energy I had. 

It was great because Sizzler got out too. The teen who rides him said that a few days ago she took him out for a ride alone, and he was so good she wondered if he was a different horse. I'm pretty sure now that he never had training issues, just back pain and saddle issues. He's beginning to feel so much better. He was great on the beach today too. 

I'm afraid it is too late to give Rascal another name. He already has moved into the name he has. Today after our ride I went to put something in my truck, leaving the horses tied for a moment. Turned back around and saw Rascal standing over next to Nala, loose. He'd slipped his halter off somehow and not run away, just wandered over to Nala. 

He's a bit of a rascal under saddle too. When he gets worked up, he throws his body around all crazy. Yet he's not lost his mind or terrified, and today I brought a short crop with a flat smacker on the end. When he did the herky jerky stuff I'd give him a whap, move him around a little and he'd stop. 

Nala's rider said he seemed to have a "bean," so was thinking of having the vet come and clean his sheath. I told her we should try to see if he'd tolerate it without sedation first. So tonight we put some hay in front of him and I worked my way into the area with some warm water. He lifted his leg a few times and threatened to kick, but after bit let me do an exploratory and get the plug out. 

We were laughing about how a testy mare can be different from a testy gelding. The gelding says, "Don't touch me there or I'll kick." You say, "No you won't," and he lets you do it. 
The mare says, "Don't touch me there or I'll kick." You say, "No you won't," and she says, "I warned you." 

Well, it rained so there are drops on the lense so it is just a short little clip today.
Obviously the song (eurythmics) is about communicating with horses in the rain, on a beach.


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## bsms

Hmmm...video blocked on copyright grounds. Told my daughter today that I can only dream of riding a horse along a beach. She said she would still worry about the sand...


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## Hondo

It's the music. I've had videos blocked in the past because of the music being copyrighted.

I hope Sizzler's owner can comprehend what has been done for her horse. The change sounds impressive and is a lesson.


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## egrogan

Glad you’re feeling better @gottatrot!!

Funny you say that about Rascals name, I’ve had that thought about Fizz and hers too. Sometimes she sure does feel like a shaken up bottle of champagne! Maybe I should have names her Sleepy or Lamb or something soft 

Glad your charges are coming along so nicely-both with you and others on them. A real testament to your way of helping them slowly figure things out.


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## gottatrot

Thanks, Egrogan, hopefully you're all well by now too. 
Doesn't surprise me that your Fizz is "fizzy." I think no matter what you name a horse, there can be hidden connotations. "Sleepy" might be difficult to get trotting on the trails, LOL. 



bsms said:


> Told my daughter today that I can only dream of riding a horse along a beach. She said she would still worry about the sand...


She's smart about that, it's good to be aware of the footing. With horseback riding it's a balance between being wisely cautious vs reckless vs too timid. I think everyone is slightly off kilter in one direction.



> (Hondo) - I hope Sizzler's owner can comprehend what has been done for her horse. The change sounds impressive and is a lesson


Sizzler knows, so that's what matters. 

I guess a Charlie Brown horse is supposed to go to different music:


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## Hondo

Still stuck on my treeless research. Had to post this in case others did not know.

According to the quote below and website, Camillo Cavallin was the inventor/developer of not only the Torsion but the moving force behind the Ghost.

"Way back in the year 1990, Camillo Cavallin acquired his name as one of the original designers of the modern-day treeless saddles, including the Torsion saddles. From the start, Camillo made it his mission to turn an ancient principal into contemporary saddles that put the comfort and welfare of horse and rider first. Over the years, his continuous research and development of the highly acclaimed Ghost saddles earned him a remarkable reputation. Still the leading light at Ghost, he has now dedicated his name to his personal twenty-first century brand of treeless saddles; the Cavallin range."

Cavallin Treeless Saddles


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## gottatrot

*Going on a little rant here:*

David Ramey annoys me. Normally I like most of the articles in Equus magazine, but this last issue had an article by Ramey that was disappointing. 


> Dogs are a high-maintenance/high-reward sort of an animal. Most people love them...Snakes are low reward, but low maintenance,
> too. Horses, I think, kind of fit in the middle. They're certainly more complicated to take care of than are snakes. But they don't require as much attention as do dogs. *For example, you can leave them in the field with grass and water for a few months and they'll do just fine*.


I know that some healthy horses in some parts of the country can be left in a field with grass and water. Yet I know very few horses that can actually do well in that scenario. Many would either starve or else founder.



> In general, I think of horses as sort of a medium-reward/medium-maintenance animal (there are plenty of individual exceptions,
> of course) Given that horse care does require some effort, and horses can't sit with you on the couch and watch television, _*I think that the last thing that horses need is a bunch of folks telling you how complicated and difficult it is to take care of them.*_
> But this notion is taking root in the horse world...I worry that all of this noise is making the horse world very loud, difficult, expensive and unnecessarily complicated place to be. In fact, it's worse than that; it risks separating horses from owners by making ownership a financially and emotionally demanding proposition.
> Horses survive-and thrive-without two things that are often imposed on horse owners: precision and cost.


The article goes on to offer some questions to help simplify things and lower costs. This is not the first time I've been bothered by this popular vet's advice. On FB a post came across about how horses really only need grass and hay, and please don't give horses supplements. When I mentioned in a response that my mare was in terrible shape from vitamin E deficiency and that people should be aware that our modern pastures or hay might not be as nutritionally complete as what a wild horse might get grazing the range, he ignored it. Another person also commented about a similar issue with deficiencies. 

The advice he gives is just how Halla and her TB friend were treated. Given for free to a non-horse experienced person, thrown hay once in awhile and put in a field, they were nearly dead and had terrible hooves and rain rot all over by the time we found them. No one had told the new owner it was more complicated than a little hay (no need to be accurate about the amount) and water.

Anyone can tell you I can be as lazy as they come. When I bought Amore, I didn't even know what the barn was feeding her, and never read up on nutrition at all. Unless it was dangling off my own horse, I didn't care to learn about it. Over the years being around horses, however, I've learned many things. I've seen horses that died due to owners following too simple of a program and not understanding that horse care really is complicated. Most of us, including me would prefer that it was simple and you could just always be natural and cheap. But when the cheap hay and no vitamins gave the horses shelly hooves and skin conditions, and we couldn't understand why the hard keepers wouldn't gain weight and the fat ones were always lame, and the hooves split so we couldn't ride, I started looking into it. If horse care was so simple, and everyone was just trying to make it complicated, then a forum like this would not be so popular.

I say if you have a young, healthy horse and live in a great environment for horses with the right minerals and such, be happy. But don't assume that it will always be so easy. Horses get strange illnesses like Lyme and they injure themselves and get calcified tendons and the "simple plan" of feeding oats (Ramey was one I listened to in that respect) can cause severe laminitis. They're not medium maintenance animals; in my experience they require staff to care for them. But they are not medium reward, either! They offer the highest rewards to real horse people, and in my mind we shouldn't lament that those who don't find them so rewarding don't want to sacrifice in order to own them.


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## Hondo

A little bit of a rant.....maybe, but I personally found nothing I disagree about. I have had a dog most of my life and now two. If I were to rate on level of maintenance, which I don't really think much about, I would rate dogs as way way less maintenance than horses.

I my mind, the only way a horse can be low maintenance is if in a herd of 200+ (required for genetic viability) in a large enough area that no fences are encountered with adequate water and forage that requires 10-20 miles of travel each day over reasonably rough terrain.

The farther removed from that scenario, the more care they need for health and vitality.

And then there's the emotional health of the horse that the vet spoken of likely does not even acknowledge.

I recently subscribed to Equus and considered posting a rant on the training series they had. I even emailed the author and got some responses but found them unsatisfactory. There were other articles that were problematic in some areas to me. Things that I believe to be just plain wrong.

As a result, I have not even opened the last issue. I probably will at some point for there are SOME things I've enjoyed. Sort of like a forum, one just cannot believe everything read.

The real worry is that unknowing people will read some of that stuff and go off believing it. Bad bad.


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## knightrider

Awwww, I like Equus. I guess since I have been messing with horses for 60 some years, I just ignore the stuff that I don't agree with. Equus started out in Gaithersbury, MD, near my home, and people I respected and knew well were involved in the inception of the magazine. I remember how excited we horsefolks were when the first issue came out. Back then, Equus was the magazine that was more woo woo far out than the other horse magazines. Once they took (I think it was 4) horses where they KNEW their total history and then had well known horse communicators report on their findings. Another time they got horses with papers, so they knew how old they were, and asked very qualified equine dentists to "age" the horses. They were WAAAAY off.

Another time they did a study on "What Makes John Henry Run?" which was fascinating, why John Henry was so much faster than other thoroughbreds. And another of my favorites was the story of Kofoed, barn name Diamond, who was pretty much a pasture pet until an injury sidelined the famous endurance rider's "real" endurance horse and she took Diamond since she was already registered for the ride. He won every endurance challenge in sight for several years. They evaluated his lungs, heart, muscles, and such.
@Hondo, what articles didn't you like? I probably didn't like them either, but just ignored them. I've been told so many things since I was young that were wrong, and learned so many things that were different over the years, I just take what makes sense to me and ignore the other stuff.

Do you like Deb Bennett? I think she is kind of amazing, but other people think she is more smoke and mirrors. Since I don't know what I don't know, I couldn't say.

I do think Equus is not as exciting as it was back in 1981 or whenever it began. "I Am Your Horse's Stomach" was in the first issue and back in the day, it was controversial. I miss those controversial articles. But it's still my favorite, maybe just for old times sake.


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## Hondo

knightrider said:


> I just ignore the stuff that I don't agree with.
> 
> *SAGE ADVICE *
> 
> I've been told so many things since I was young that were wrong, and learned so many things that were different over the years, I just take what makes sense to me and ignore the other stuff.
> 
> *MORE SAGE ADVICE*


I believe my first subscription was Septemeber about negative reinforcement. Don't remember the author but she was a Phd. Within the article an example of pressure release was given with a horse trying to buck and act up. The horse was made to work hard until it stopped with the hard work being stopped. The hard work was given as pressure and stopping was the release.

I viewed this as punishment, plain and simple. Not a harsh punishment, but aversion training never-the-less. Not arguing that this is good or bad but just that it is not pressure release as I understand it.

I emailed the author who replied that punishment is generally thought of as inflicting pain. I disagree with that also. But who am I to question a Phd. and published author?

But the overall gist of the two article series was good. Reward is more desirable for many reasons, particularly bond and trust building. I just opposed that example of pressure release.

Another that comes to mind was about tire care on trailers. The author quoted a manufacturer or trailer sales person, forget which, as advising against selecting a tire heavier than required for the load it would be subjected to.

Well, I have some experience in that as do many others. Tires are tested and rated under very favorable conditions including temperature and road conditions. Trailer tires are absolutely notorious for failures. (Same with RV's) If the tires are to be trouble free for the life of the tire, it is a must to use heavier tires. I use 10 ply on my F150 for the rocky dirt roads I travel on.

But overall, the article was not bad, IMNTBHO, but could certainly cause people to have tire problems that travel under not so ideal conditions.

I'll check out Deb Bennett. I'm new to Equus.


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## bsms

I would call horses much higher maintenance than my dogs. Feeding them 3 times a day, which requires a lot more time than scooping some dog food. Cleaning the corral twice a day. I don't have a complex feed situation...hay twice a day and pelleted feed once a day to compensate for the variable quality of our hay. But the farrier is now coming every 6 weeks instead of every 8, which seems to be helping their feet. And the horses get hurt a lot more often than my dogs.

Now..."*Going on a little rant here:*

I think people do often make horses seem much more difficult than they are. 

Online, virtually everyone says people need professional riding instruction for years before owning, and many say EVERY rider should take weekly lessons forever! I couldn't count the times someone has posted that they have taken lessons for 30 years and will never stop...which may meet a genuine emotional need, but doesn't have much to do with riding a content & healthy horse.

We've discussed saddle fit, and I continually tinker with it...but I think the large majority of horses can do well enough ridden in a western saddle with either semi, regular or full QH bars. I'm amazed at all the people online who say you need a "fitter", when I've never met anyone who has met a saddle fitter!

And while tack fascinates me, I think most horses could be ridden fine if the only bits made were a couple of single joint snaffles, a couple of double joints, and Billy Allen curb bits. In fact, I think most horses could be ridden fine if the only bits were a single joint snaffle and a solid shank curb. Just don't tell my wife that, or she'll question why I have horse bits sitting on book shelves, plus a sack of them in the garage as "overflow".

OK, she questions that anyways, but after 30 years of marriage she overlooks it as me being anal me.

When I grew up, I could only dream of owning horses. But most people back then had trail horses or ranch horses. Some also sometimes played games of some sort in an arena - mostly roping or barrel racing in Arizona. In the 70s, in Utah, I sometimes went to "chariot races" featuring home made "chariots" with horses trained by guys who made homemade chariots. No helmets, quite a bit of beer-drinking by Utah standards...very *******. 

By the time I really took up riding 10 years ago, the Internet was available - and awash in a lot of truly bad ideas. Some of which I adopted, such as "bits are cruel". But instructors are often full of bad ideas, too! I've PAID to hear to I should urge a horse forward with my heels while holding them back with my hands so the horse would have to "round up" between - a theory which is also taught in books recommended by the USDF. I've paid for advice like "Get a bigger whip!" and to be told I should back a horse up by putting a heavy metal clasp on a lead line and whipping it back and forth against the horse's face.

Yesterday, I came across an article by a woman who has written several books on saddle fitting who said every saddle should sit you so you have a vertical line from ear to hip to heel, because that was the ONLY way to be balanced on a horse. Don't know where she rides or what she rides, but that would be a good way to get a mouthful of cactus with the average Arizona horse. As much as I like my Abetta saddle, I am probably going to stop using it because it puts me in a very vertical position, which makes riding Bandit a bit dangerous when he has too much Zippity Do Dah. I can compensate with grip, but don't like riding that way. I may buy a larger one, though.

There is a balance somewhere, between the people who take any saddle, sling it on any horse, thump down on the loins and shout "Yee-Haw!" on the one hand, and the perpetually anal person who believes almost no one is qualified to own a horse, let alone ride one. Between the people who won't bother trimming a hoof for 4-5 months, and the people who want X-rays every couple of weeks. Between the people who have never met a bit they couldn't yank on, and the ones who need $250 bits made by elves, or at least forged by dwarves in Middle Earth.



> But telling people that taking care of horses is complicated and difficult is precisely what is happening, and they’re hearing it from just about every direction.
> 
> 
> 
> From the specialist “dentist,” who may be telling them that they need to have their horse’s teeth worked on twice a year.
> From the supplement companies, who crow about the need to “support” or “optimize” or “normalize” just about every cell in the horse’s body
> From “chiropractors” (most who do not, in fact, have degrees from chiropractic colleges) who assert that the horse’s body needs to be regularly “adjusted”
> From massage therapists, who may want to “optimize” performance or “improve” circulation
> From feed companies, who assert that the horse’s feed must be “precise” and “balanced”
> From veterinarians, who may want even the simplest problem to be immediately evaluated with a battery of diagnostic tests and procedures
> From farriers, who insist that horses be shod on an exacting schedule, and to some exacting “balance,” without account for the individual needs of the horse (unless, of course, they tell you that shoeing a horse is a terrible thing in its own right)
> From trainers, who tell horse lovers that they can’t/shouldn’t/don’t ride in this or the other way. *Otherwise stated, if you ever feel comfortable on top of your horse, you’re probably going to be told you are doing something wrong*.
> From horse magazines, filled with articles from various experts, and four color advertisements asserting the importance of doing this, that, or the other, as well as news about the “latest” promising development
> *
> ASIDE: *I’m sure I’ve missed annoying plenty of other groups. That oversight was purely unintentional, I’m sure....
> 
> ...Horses need owners, and especially now, with horse ownership declining. Horse owning should be fun, and it shouldn’t have to be super expensive. *Your horse most likely needs more time and attention, not more products or services*. (boldface is mine) - https://www.doctorramey.com/separating-owners-horses/


I think he is reacting to, or maybe overreacting to, people like the one horse massage person who came out to look at Mia. She poked Mia in the back, near the spine, with her thumb. Mia (obviously) reacted. And she told me Mia needed massage. I told her Mia need not to be poked in the back with someone's thumb, and please leave. Or the vet who refused to tell us about Trooper's eye, and charged us $400 to hear we needed to take Trooper to an eye expert. Or the farrier who told me horses needed to be trimmed every 3 weeks.

Now, looking on the Internet, he seems to be anti-supplement:

https://www.doctorramey.com/do-you-know-what-youre-giving-your-horse/ 

I'm not, but I also am amused by the SmartPak catalogs that show up in my mailbox. I tried multiple "calming supplements" for Mia, but what she really needed was a better rider, more experience, and ultimately a place to run and burn off energy. I like supplementing Bandit's feed for hoof nutrients, but...Mia needed training and experience, not aroma therapy (which one vet recommended for her).

And yes, I can relate to the idea that "*if you ever feel comfortable on top of your horse, you’re probably going to be told you are doing something wrong*". 

I still clearly remember a thread where a woman said she & her horse didn't enjoy dressage training, and would it be OK if they just rode trails. With one exception - me - the advice was that she NEEDED dressage lessons, for years, or she would be a slob rider. Like me, presumably.

I understand supplementing and believe some horses truly NEED it. And some horses truly NEED special saddles, or a custom fit, and some truly NEED very expert shoeing. Heck, Bandit came here using his front left leg at a 45 degree angle because of bad shoeing! And while his owner genuinely cared for him, there was something very wrong about allowing a 265+ lb guy take 800 lb Bandit out on long training rides - training for SPEED, for goodness sakes! With 300 lbs on an 800 lbs horse! It will be a miracle if Bandit doesn't some day go lame. 

But, on average, I don't think owning a horse is that complex.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> but I think the large majority of horses can do well enough ridden in a western saddle with either semi, regular or full QH bars


Based on most saddle makers definitions of those terms, this would be paramount to saying the majority of horses have shoulder widths 3 inches below the withers and in behind the scapula of 6, 6 1/2, or 7 inches wide. Is this what you mean to say?

I personally have not seen enough horses to know. There are four out of 18 here on the ranch that are 10 inches wide at that location, but that is a small sample. Have not even measured the others.

I just think is possibly dangerous to throw out the idea that a western saddle can usually be thrown on the back of most horses without a problem without some detailed clarification.

I personally have several problems with the western design. One that hasn't been spoken of much is the built in crown on the bars. This allows the horse to get wider or narrower without the edge of the bars poking or creating pressure points.

Sounds good in theory, but think about how the surface area of the bars is calculated or measured. The shadow of the bars is what is measured. But to make a different application of Rod's two spoon idea, place two spoons back to back. What is the surface area in contact? I would say zero but that would be wrong. It is infinitesimally small which means it has a limit of zero as it approaches it's smallest smallness.

For the area to increase, the crown has to sink into the horse some. The more it sinks, the greater the area. But also the greater the forces in the center.

Thinking about that it comes as no surprise that the pressure testing usually shows the highest pressure in the center of the bar, or the highest part of the crown.

The rigid tree as I understand was first devised for a more stable platform from which to engage in combat and then adapted by cattle workers as a platform for roping.

I have not read anywhere that the rigid tree was developed for the comfort of the horse.

If you think I may be becoming a barefoot, bitless, treeless nazi, you may be right!


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> Based on most saddle makers definitions of those terms, this would be paramount to saying the majority of horses have shoulder widths 3 inches below the withers and in behind the scapula of 6, 6 1/2, or 7 inches wide. Is this what you mean to say?...


I think you are in error about the implications. No idea what the significance is of 3" below the withers is. If the ANGLE is right, then width is largely irrelevant provided clearance is given to the spine.

Horsesaddleshop uses three angles. Although manufacturers vary some, they sell a lot of saddles and I'd bet their average is pretty close:



> Using the templates, determine if your horse's conformation is medium, wide, or extra wide.
> 
> _Medium Angle: 86 Deg +/-3 _
> _ Wide Angle: 90 Deg +/-3 _
> _ Extra Wide Angle: 94 Deg +/-3_


Frankly, even looking at the angles...the difference in fit between 86 degrees and 90 degrees is...well, 4 degrees. That isn't huge. Now, let's suppose the angle is the same for horse and saddle at 90 degrees. If you make it with a smaller gullet width, the bars will be a little closer to the backbone (very little), but it will perch a little higher above the plane of the back. If you keep the angle the same, but increase the width 1/2", it will sit a little lower - but then still match between the horse and saddle.










BAR ANGLE

Good review at the website above.

That is why adding a 1" pad doesn't affect "saddle fit". The pad causes the saddle to be a bit higher off the back, but the angles stay the same. The common analogy of "thicker socks" is irrelevant because shoes wrap around our feet, but the saddle rests on top of the back.

So far, the studies I've seen indicate treed saddles result in less pressure on the horse's back than treeless or bareback.



> Compared with the treeless saddle, the conventional saddle distributed the rider’s bodyweight over a larger area, had lower mean and maximal pressures and fewer sensors recording mean pressure >11 kPa. These findings suggested that the saddle tree was effective in distributing the weight of the saddle and rider over a larger area and in avoiding localized areas of force concentration.
> 
> Comparison of pressure distribution under a conventional saddle and a treeless saddle at sitting trot - ScienceDirect





> Contact area and force variables did not differ between saddles but maximal pressure, mean pressure and area with pressure >11 kPa were higher for the treeless dressage saddle. The panels of the treeless dressage saddle provided contact area and force distribution comparable to a conventional treed saddle but high pressure areas were a consequence of a narrow gullet and highly-sloped panels. It was concluded that, even with a treeless saddle, the size, shape, angulation, and position of the panels must fit the individual horse.
> 
> Force and pressure distribution beneath a conventional dressage saddle and a treeless dressage saddle with panels - ScienceDirect


There may be other studies, but the successful riding of millions of horses in saddles with trees suggest the saddles are at least adequate. Bad fit WILL cause problems. Trooper has the permanent white spots. I don't deny it. But I see no evidence that MOST horses need a custom fit. Not for general riding.

Crowns are used to allow the muscle to slide underneath. Done right, they do not significantly affect the load bearing area. Excessive flare will decrease the area of contact, so the goal is enough flare to allow muscles to slide, but no more.

Good:










Too much:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> If the ANGLE is right, then width is largely irrelevant


Rather than go into an extended dissertation, I'll only address this for now.

On the average sized horse, the slope of the shoulders, or shoulder angle, begin around 3-4 inches below the withers, as measured in a vertical line behind the scapula.

From the wither down to that 3-4 inch point, the slope of the wither, or angle of the wither, is flatter than the angle of the shoulder.

Now without getting into handhole vs gullet width, the gullet width is _generally_ measured between the top of the bars at the front where the shoulder slope _begins_.

Shoulder slope/angle is certainly important. The bar angle at the front needs to match it as closely as possible. Yes. But the distance between the top of the bars is equally important and far far from irrelevant as you suppose.

For instance, if a tree was placed on Hondo with a shoulder angle that exactly matched Hondo's shoulder angle but with the bars only 7 inches apart at the top, the bars would be resting on his withers since his shoulders measure a full 10 inches wide at the beginning of his shoulder slope, which happens to be the more or less standard 3 inches down from the top of the withers.

You really should have known.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> No idea what the significance is of 3" below the withers is.[/IMG]


I've decided I would be remiss if I did not address this also.

The Thoracic Trapezius pictured below must never bear any weight for if it does, severe atrophy of it and most other shoulder muscles will occur, according to anyone with a degree in equine anatomy.

And the Thoracic Trapezius ends at about 3-4 inches below the withers.

And THAT is the significance of the 3 inches below the wither.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...On the average sized horse, the slope of the shoulders, or shoulder angle, begin around 3-4 inches below the withers, as measured in a vertical line behind the scapula.
> 
> From the wither down to that 3-4 inch point, the slope of the wither, or angle of the wither, is flatter than the angle of the shoulder....
> 
> ....You really should have known.


Accepting that gullet width can vary with how people measure it...the fact is most gullets sold are in the 6.5 - 7 range. An 8 inch gullet normally is for a very wide QH or a draft. To cite horsesaddleshop again, since they sell a lot of brands and obviously take saddle fitting seriously:



> *Gullet Width* or sometimes referred to as bar spread is the measurement 2 inches below the narrowest part of the gullet, even with the side conchos. This is the most common factor because we can measure it more easily. When measuring, make sure you're underneath the bars, not in front of the saddle.
> 
> *A narrow gullet width will keep the saddle perched higher. A wider spread will drop further down on the horse's back. *[Note: BF is mine, added since this is the essence of what I wrote.]
> 
> https://www.horsesaddleshop.com/western-saddle-fitting-tree-sizes.html


If the saddle sits on top of the horse, and as long as one has clearance in motion with the withers, and adequate distance from the spine, then this isn't a critical measurement. The large majority of western saddles I see for sale, if they have gullet width noted, are in the 6.5-7 range. 8 is uncommon. If 6.5-7.0 covers the large majority of saddles sold, and those saddles work, then it really isn't a big deal.



> In this case the three trees will fit the same with a 3/4" difference in the gullet widths. Therefore, one must understand the relationships of the sub elements and their affect of the end-result gullet width. A Wade tree with a 7" gullet width can fit the same as a Buster Welch tree with a 6 1/4" gullet width.
> 
> As stated before, *if the bar angle is correct, the swell gullet width should not be a factor in saddle fit*, other than fine tuning the overall fit....
> 
> _*With the majority of saddles built on trees with swell gullet widths between 6 1/4" to 7", this approximate measurement is somewhat meaningless and if used leads to misunderstandings and confusion. *_
> 
> THE SADDLE
> 
> From the American Saddle Makers Association


Needing a 10" gullet width?



> Dispelling a myth: We have had customers tell us that their draft needs a 9", 10", 11" gullet or bigger. However, the measurement they are referring to is NOT the gullet width. The largest the gullet can be is 8"...any larger than that and the tree would collapse in on itself. Simple physics! The measurement they may be referring to is the distance between the inside of the bars. The way our draft tree is designed with flatter, wider bars, we successfully fit all draft horses with either a 7", 7.5" or 8" gullet.
> 
> Mountain Horse, Inc. offers saddles specifically designed for your draft or Friesian horse.


"_The Thoracic Trapezius pictured below must never bear any weight for if it does, severe atrophy of it and most other shoulder muscles will occur, according to anyone with a degree in equine anatomy._" - @*Hondo*


> The thoracic trapezius originates on the supraspinous ligament from T3 to T10. Since T4 and 5 are the tallest of the dorsal spinous processes, it starts well ahead of the saddle, *but the back part of the trapezius sits under the fork and gullet, and therefore under the front of the bar of the saddle*.
> 
> Putting the skin back on, the thoracic trapezius lies over the shoulder blade from the midline to the tuber of the scapula, which you can feel on your horse. And you can easily see that it is one of the muscles that would be squished if the saddle was placed too far forward and held in place with a breast collar, or if for some reason the last bit of the shoulder blade couldn't slip under the front bar tip as the horse is fully extending his front leg. It is also in a position to be harmed by saddles that are too wide - bar spread or angle - so that the top of the bar tip digs into the horse.
> 
> The Trapezius muscle
> 
> "Denise’s “engagement ring” was a custom saddle, which was OK with her, so obviously horses and saddles have played a big role in her life as well. She had earned her degree as a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine before meeting Rod and worked with both small and large animals for a number of years before retiring from the profession to help Rod in the tree business."


IOW, it is a muscle. With poor saddle design, it can be poked and damaged. But it not a muscle that must be avoided at all costs. Not according to a vet married to someone who makes custom saddle trees. Part of it goes under the bars of the tree. That part doesn't normally bear significant weight, so it works.

Maybe it wouldn't work with an English saddle. I haven't used a true English saddle in years, and I have not spent a lot of time learning about their fitting. I'm content to give weight to the Nikkels and the American Saddle Makers Association and places that stay in business by recommending and selling saddles to people who need to be happy with what they get.

There are a few horses - and Cowboy may be a good example - who would need a custom tree to get an excellent fit. But little Cowboy hauled my 160 lb son's butt around two days ago, including lots of trotting, cantering, pushing in brush, dropping into and climbing out of washes for two hours (on my son's 12th time on a horse) - and while the saddle fit was far from perfect, Cowboy sure acted fine. And Cowboy WILL buck if the saddle causes him problems. I don't think saddle fit is quite as difficult as it can be made out to be. For a few horses, yes. But not many. All IMHO.


----------



## Hondo

Forget gullet width. Forget hand hold width. Think about the width of the shoulders just below the Thoracic Trapezius. That's the width that must be considered. And that width must include the width between the top of the bars below the Thoracic Trapezius and if a 3/4 inch saddle pad is used the bars must be 1 1/2 inch wider to accommodate the saddle pad. Otherwise the saddle will rest partially upon the Thoracic Trapezius. Bad bad.

After and only after the width below the Thoracic Trapezius has been addressed the bar angle needs to be addressed.

This from Mountain Horse is pure BS. "The way our draft tree is designed with flatter, wider bars, we successfully fit all draft horses with either a 7", 7.5" or 8" gullet." Flatter bars fit ALL draft horses? ALL draft horses have the same shoulder angle. I'm embarrassed that this is even posted.

Full draft is 10 inches. Hondo is 10 inches. The person that made the trooper saddle I bought on craig's and remodeled assured me that his trooper saddle with a 7 inch gullet would or bar spread would fit Hondo fine. Ha! More BS! I set the tree out of the trooper from craig's on the plywood cutout of Hondo and the bars rested upon the Thoracic Trapezius. He said that even after I sent him tracings. Very bad BS. 

Yes, the Thoracic Trapezius sits under the gullet as mentioned but must never touch it.


Hopefully others have learned from some of this. I'm outta here on this subject for now.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...Think about the width of the shoulders just below the Thoracic Trapezius. That's the width that must be considered. And that width must include the width between the top of the bars below the Thoracic Trapezius and if a 3/4 inch saddle pad is used the bars must be 1 1/2 inch wider to accommodate the saddle pad. Otherwise the saddle will rest partially upon the Thoracic Trapezius. Bad bad......


*If X is done successfully by millions, how bad can it be?* I don't like riding with constant contact on the bit, but millions of horses are ridden that way successfully...so maybe I'm wrong. If bits are evil, why do so many horses ride fine in them? If horses can't be started before 6 years of age, then why do so many do so well started earlier?

If Bandit's trapezius extends under the tree, and he rides with so much oomph that 30 minutes in the arena today left me exhausted and wondering why I tried my saddle without sheepskin today...then in what sense it is "Very bad BS"? If it was hurting him, why did he move so energetically? He wasn't even sweating, so no dry spots to look for even - but he sure acted like a horse eager to move! And Bandit, like my other mustang, has no problems with bucking if annoyed. He was moving and turning fast enough that I had a hard time staying in my "slick seat saddle":








​
Don't know how to reconcile his behavior with a theory that says the Thoracic Trapezius must be inviolate. Or the successful use of millions of western saddles that have gullets 7" and under.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, I do like Equus magazine more than others I've read. I didn't know they had the history of being controversial, so maybe that is why they include Ramey's point of view. Stories like the ones you mentioned are one big reason why I like Equus. 

I've heard that a lot of people don't like Deb Bennett. As you said, we should take what we like and ignore the rest, and I actually do agree with quite a lot of what @bsms quoted Ramey saying. Factually, but not so much with the emphasis.

Something I've really liked about Deb Bennett is that she's come up with some things that I find quite important, and the way she communicates sticks with me sometimes. One thing I'd never thought of was her idea of functional downhill or uphill. Basically, rather than looking at the height of the withers or the croup, look at whether the barrel of the horse sits level, uphill or downhill. That's where your saddle goes, that's what you're riding, so functionally that is the plane of the horse.

She also wrote about how the horse's spine is the last thing to mature (the part we ride on), and I'd always heard that riding age depended on when the leg bones were mature. Her article on Secretariat not long ago in Equus was excellent, and it was interesting how she illustrated that he put his hind end directly behind his front end even around curves, and also had a double suspension gallop.

Her article in this last issue of Equus also had interesting information about horse teeth. I've heard many people say "wild horses don't get their teeth floated," and I'd read that they didn't usually have dental issues because the constant grazing along with the grit from the grass and ground wore the teeth down evenly. The article clarified the "why" of that, which is not just that the horses are eating for 17+ hrs a day, but that they are grazing. I hadn't understood that horses pull grass with the front teeth, which causes wear, but they pull hay into their mouth mainly with their lips and tongue. So by feeding hay, we ensure that horses need dental care. I'd also never understood that there are three surfaces that must meet for everything to work properly. Each side of the jaw must meet but also the incisors. If the incisors don't match up, it creates an uneven wearing surface that affects the molar growth.

So yes, I've learned a lot from Bennett.


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## gottatrot

It's always great to come online and find some good discussion going on.

Unfortunately, I've dealt a lot with a small percentage of horses that are difficult to fit saddles to. I don't believe most are that difficult. 

The one thing about putting the saddle back where it's supposed to go is that you're definitely not going to be over the widest/largest part of that thoracic trapezius. You need those three inches on either side of the spine at the pommel for shoulder muscle movement, and if you have that room you'll be avoiding that muscle too. 








Many, many horses naturally get narrower below that muscle.









My horse does not.











bsms said:


> I think people do often make horses seem much more difficult than they are....
> 
> There is a balance somewhere, between the people who take any saddle, sling it on any horse, thump down on the loins and shout "Yee-Haw!" on the one hand, and the perpetually anal person who believes almost no one is qualified to own a horse, let alone ride one. Between the people who won't bother trimming a hoof for 4-5 months, and the people who want X-rays every couple of weeks. Between the people who have never met a bit they couldn't yank on, and the ones who need $250 bits made by elves, or at least forged by dwarves in Middle Earth.


I do agree with this, and also with most of the Ramey quote. I don't think horses need supplements for everything, my horses have never been seen by a massage therapist, or chiropractor (although I have considered it), and I know many vets order unnecessary tests. I've met a saddle fitter at an expo, but never had one near my horse.
Yet there is definitely a balance, and it's hard to find sometimes. The latest studies and things in magazines can help us sometimes, with understanding conditions people never understood before, like Shivers. 

In my mind, Ramey leans too far toward over simplifying. It's one thing to say that people spend too much unnecessarily and make things too complicated. It's another to deny that people have complicated things by taking horses out of their natural environment and by breeding the hardiness out of them. I believe we've also complicated things by creating hay that is baled off homogeneous fields rather than a mix of different grasses and nutrients. 

But I'm one to always agree there is "ideal," and there is "good." I'm OK with anyone who wants to give "good" care to their horses, just like I'm OK with co-workers who give good care to patients but don't try for excellence. 
It's part of life to figure out when you're being scammed, when things are worth the hype or just a fad. Same with horses, and some vets are scammers, and there are lots of popular fad supplements and treatments. 

There _is_ a middle ground between saying you need two dental floats a year, versus having a good vet look at the horse's teeth and tell you exactly why this horse needs it done yearly, while also saying a different horse that has been well maintained and has good genetics only needs it done every two or three years.
There is a middle ground between having a saddle fitter out yearly and your saddle reflocked or replaced and learning everything you can about saddle fit and trying four different saddles and choosing the best one. There is a middle ground between giving a 12 year old horse supplements for hooves, coat, joints, digestion, calmness, along with vinegar, coconut flakes and slippery elm versus giving a 28 year old with known arthritis a joint supplement that appears to help.




bsms said:


> But, on average, I don't think owning a horse is that complex.


No, but I also think that the more experienced and educated you are, the less complex things seem. As evidenced by all the posts on here that begin with "Help!" and often to me seem like simple problems. 

I do agree that people over complicate things like riding, and especially dressage. In my last video, Sizzler is being ridden by a western trained teen. She rides a lot differently than I do, and in my experience her position is less secure. She's probably not going to be riding the same types of horses I ride, and what matters is that she is staying on that horse, he is happy with her riding, and it is all good. If she wants to gallop in the future, I'll give her some pointers. Otherwise, she is doing just fine.

In my experience, knowing the right thing at the right time can make all the difference. Your horse might be far easier to deal with if your saddle fits and if she isn't dealing with subtle hind end weakness from vitamin E deficiency. Knowledge is power, and well applied knowledge can do amazing things.


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## Hondo

I guess I'll have to go retrieve my last copy of Equus and read Bennet on teeth. Interesting that the lack of nipping the grass is the culprit. None of the horses on this ranch have ever had their teeth floated.

I've spent a lot of time watching Hondo cut grass with his fronts but did not know for certain they did not use them for hay. I do have some metal grates they must eat through and have worried that it might impact their teeth. In watching them eat, it did seem that they did tend to pull the hay up with their lips and tongue but did not know the front teeth were not used at all.

I do know that they have a very sensitive sense of feel with their front teeth. I have allowed Dragon to feel my fingers with his teeth and he does it very very gently. He'll pull around a little more strongly with his lips but not his teeth. He knows. On my arm or elsewhere he sometimes pulls my clothing away with his teeth. Just a little and then drops it. I never get after him about it. I'm pretty sure he has some Border Collie in his lineage. Sister Dolly is very close to him on that. (actually Dalai Lama) Naming Dolly as the daughter of Molly was apparently too simple.

Going back to saddle fit for a brief, I recall when first here and was riding gathers with two very experienced people. I was riding Hondo with a roping saddle before I bought my own and before I even owned Hondo.

They kept telling me my saddle looked to be too far back. I had no idea where a saddle was supposed to go. I did notice that the back of their saddles flopped back and forth on the back end of their horses. I mentioned that and they both simply said, "Oh, they all do that. It's not a problem".

One of those two riders had taken their horse out of service not long before because of a saddle sore up on the Thoracic Trapezius (long before I was aware of that catchy name. And there was and still are white hairs there.

I've only put that all together during the last year. But the person is a 60 year old born and raised on this ranch and not about to listen to anything horsewise that this greenie says or claims. And I'm not about to try. I like it here and don't wanna get thrown out.


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## bsms

I don't know the names of the muscles. How my horse reacts has taught me I don't want to feel muscles bulging up and feeling squeezed by the front of the saddle. If that happens, and I've done it enough to know it does happen with the wrong saddle or wrong placement, then my horses act up. Bars ON the shoulder blade equals bucking. Bars too close to the shoulder blade, impacting muscle movement, equals poor movement. But if my horse moves with "oomph", and turns freely and cheerfully, then I figure it is OK. Of course, if I rode my horse 12 hour days, or needed highly athletic movement from him, I might need more careful fitting/placement/balance.

I think it boils down to this: Some people listen to their horse, and some do not. Plenty of people ride on the philosophy that the horse isn't allowed to talk back. "_Just do it!_" is a common philosophy for horses where I live. Not allowed to speak, they have to suffer in silence. And in my limited experience, riders like that also have no interest in reading books, watching videos, getting instruction.

If you listen to the horse, the horse will tell you something is wrong. Then one starts the process of learning more, to figure out WHAT is wrong and how to solve it. Horse/human training is largely limited to "_No, that is not the right answer. Please try again!_" I cannot tell my horse what the right answer is to a problem I give him. I can only let him know he has picked the wrong answer. And that is all my horse can do. Adjusted X, didn't help. Adjusted Y, didn't help. Adjusted Z...solved! My horse wanted me to do Z! And as we repeat that process, we gain...experience. Then we can tell others, "_When I encountered that, Z helped!_" Z might not be the right answer for every horse, but we now know Z helps SOME horses. And it might help someone else's horse.

The key though is to focus on the horse. I hope that is what the vet was trying to say. Not the folks who sell supplements, or saddles, or bits. Not the judges at shows. Collect ideas from them? Sure. But let the horse tell you which one works.

After yesterday's ride, I'll add it needs to work both ways. Bandit got feeling pretty frisky, as far as I could tell. But in my fully slick saddle, I wasn't up for it. I felt like I was going to slide out of the saddle on some of the turns and transitions. Bandit was ready to roll, but I wasn't up for it. We ended up having some pretty heated discussions. He isn't used to me worrying I'll come off during a turn and he didn't want to hear "_Slow down! Take it easy! I'm struggling here..._" When I have one hand tightly on the horn, trying to keep from sliding sideways off my horse, I'm not having fun.

We ended the ride "on a bad note". I was getting ****ed and it wasn't likely to improve, so I did what people say one shouldn't do and ended it before I totally lost it. But thinking back, I wonder how many horses have had rides where they felt the same way?

I was struggling, and my horse wasn't doing squat all to compromise. He wasn't paying any attention to MY problems. After 30 minutes, I was about to totally lose it. But...how many horses have felt like that? I didn't see any signs Bandit was deliberately causing me difficulty. I'm not sure he was aware, really. And how many horses experience that day after day? Asked to do stuff they are not physically, mentally or emotionally ready to do, feeling like their safety is compromised, while the guy on top is thinking, "_What a fun day for a ride!_"



> While it is easy to abuse your horse mentally without noticing the little inconsiderate things which one may do without meaning harm, it is also as easy to acquire a habit of thinking about your mount as a living being. It is encouraging to realize that the horse by his nature normally tries to cooperate and be good, and it is disturbing to know how often he is not given a chance to do so. Great satisfaction can be derived by any civilized human being out of the consciousness that he is kind to his animals, particularly those he uses for his pleasure.
> 
> There are thousands upon thousands of riders in this country who have a great accumulation of delightful experiences derived from companionship with their horses. If you don't happen to be one of them I would like to suggest your trying it; it will increase greatly your pleasure in being in the saddle. I am particularly addressing these words to a young woman who, while sitting on the horse's kidneys and pulling with all her might on the curb, was overheard to say:
> 
> *“Oh boy, ain't riding fun!"
> *​
> - Common Sense Horsemanship, VS Littauer


I think that was what Bandit was doing yesterday, and it isn't much fun being on the receiving end!


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## Hondo

We learn the muscles of the horse, where they insert with other muscles, and how they work and what harms them in order that hopefully we can place a properly fitting saddle in a proper location with no need for our horse to tell us something is wrong thereby causing us to go about re-inventing the wheel trying to figure out what is wrong and fixing it.

I'm recalling at this moment a story by @gottatrot about a screw that was extended out of a saddle poking a horse's spine, as I remember, for a good period of time. The horse said nothing and the discovery was made only after the horse had accumulated significant damage.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> We learn the muscles of the horse, where they insert with other muscles, and how they work and what harms them in order that hopefully we can place a properly fitting saddle in a proper location with no need for our horse to tell us something is wrong...
> 
> ...The horse said nothing and the discovery was made only after the horse had accumulated significant damage.


The problem I have is that I see no sign certain muscles take priority over other muscles. I need the HORSE to tell me because people screw it up so badly. Like not allowing a saddle tree to extend on the loin. I know what "T18" means, and I know of people who say it is critical, but I see no sign my horse cares.

If the study of muscles leads to using a 10" gullet...then the person who studies is welcome to make a saddle with a 10" gullet. Not my business! But I just had an excellent ride on Bandit, and I'm sure I had weight were some say I must not.

Another important point, I think, is that I cannot abide "_The horse said nothing..._" 

Bandit didn't talk much when I got him, but he talks plenty now. "_Horses don't talk because people don't listen_", my daughter says. I'm convinced she is right. That is why I strongly believe we need to teach silent horses that it is OK for them to talk - because we WILL listen!

If Bandit feels something is not quite right, he feels no need to endure it silently. The horse who used to have to run with 300 lbs on his back now feels free to tell me I need to adjust the saddle.

I don't believe in the theory that we humans know more about how a horse balances than the horse does. And I'm pretty sure we don't know more about muscles and how they feel than our horse does. I've read Dr Deb Bennett and have no use for her. What she tells me differs from what my horse tells me. I choose to listen to my horse. And I can afford to do so because I've taught my horse to talk. If that is my only success as a rider, it is an important one!


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## Hondo

I neither contest no disagree in any way regarding the advisability of listening to one's horse. I fully and emphatically agree.

Just as it is important for a medical doctor to listen carefully to the patient. But the doctor needs something more than listening ears. He needs medical knowledge that can translate what he hears into an accurate diagnosis and treatment.

The more we understand about the horse's muscles and of course many other things, the more likely we are to hear when the horse tells us something is wrong. And the more likely we'll know what it is and what to do about it.

It takes years and years of training and years and years of experience with perhaps thousands of horses to become really really proficient at seeing and understanding problems with horses. Something neither of us nor many others will ever achieve. Just not possible unless working in that field.

But we can learn what we can learn. And knowing where to look when a horse says my back hurts requires some basic understanding of the musculoskeletal system.


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## bsms

So @Hondo...who gives one authoritative training? Saddle makers? They all disagree. Vets? Many disagree. Heck, there are "experts" who claim horses round their backs up, although there is excellent evidence that they cannot.

Science studies? Like the one that concluded horses can only safely carry 20% of their body weight, based on a badly flawed study design? Yet it is often cited, and now people who haven't even read it are trying to suggest an upper limit of 10-15%.

Your knowledge of muscles has led you to conclude Hondo needs a 10" gullet, which virtually no western saddle made provides. So...do I trust you? Or do I look at my horse moving with "oomph", turning, accelerating, offering to move - all while saddled in a way you claim is very bad?

I could give many examples, but I fall back on the vet's advice (I think): Rather than listening to saddle marketing and pad marketing and companies selling herbs and YouTube videos, one "simply" listen to one's horse. He is the only judge I worry about. And at least HE is consistent!

PS: Before deploying to Saudi Arabia some years back, the doctor gave us a lecture. Part way thru, he told us that drinking coffee would dehydrate us, that we would lose more water by drinking coffee than we gained. The Colonel leading the deployment stood up and said, "_Then I must be a Mummy, because all I've drunk since a teen is coffee!_"

Time for me to stop derailing @gottatrot's journal. It is an interesting question raised by the vet. How hard is it to keep and ride horses, and who do you trust for advice? It is part of one's riding philosophy, just as much as "How hard should I press a horse?" and "How do I balance risk versus reward?" I think we here can at least all agree the horse should have an input. And goodness knows, many riders don't allow him to!

"_...a young woman who, while sitting on the horse's kidneys and pulling with all her might on the curb, was overheard to say: “Oh boy, ain't riding fun!_" If I'm honest, I have to admit I've been like that woman sometimes. That is part of learning. Glad I have friendly and patient horses!


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## Hondo

@gottatrot said it's exciting to return to her journal and see a discussion going on.

Funny you mention coffee. I just read a few days ago that there are health benefits to 2-3 cups of coffee per day now. Who knows, maybe someday they'll tell me to go back to smoking before I die.

I understand your question about who is expert enough to tell what's what.

Been there. I mas misdiagnosed with the wrong type of cancer. After death counseling I went to textbooks studied by doctors specializing in pathology of the particular cancer. Compared stuff with my pathology reports and there was no way I had the particular type they said I had. Showed the textbook stuff and pathology reports to my oncologist and he ordered a re-read of my slides Stanton U. Med and viola! I got into a successful trails for the incurable form I had and am still here around 20 years later.

So yeah, experts do make mistakes. One has to be one's own advocate and one's horse's advocate.

But with something as clear cut as the Thoracic Trapezius that is similar in humans and other animals, I think anyone that has a degree that entails that type thing can be trusted, particularly when they ALL agree.

This is not a close call on two very similar cancer types. This is more on the order if you stick a knife in your eye you're likely to go blind.

I don't know if you have ever measured your horse's back just behind the shoulders and it is clearly none of my business whether or not you have.

But for anybody reading this who is interested here's the deal.

1. Take a piece of wire 18-20 inches long that can be bent over the withers on each side of the horse just behind the scapula and stiff enough that it will retain it's shape when removed.

2. Trace the wire on a piece of paper or card board.

3. Measure straight down from the top 3-4 inches. 

4. Now measure across from side to side closer to the 3 inch mark for an average horse.

5. That is the width of the bottom of the Thoracic Trapezius.

6. Add twice the thickness of the saddle pad to that width.

7. That is the width the top of the bar spread needs to be under the skirt.

8. Anything more narrow than that will ride up on the Thoracic Trapezius and hurt the horse whether the horse mentions it or not.

I wish to blazes I'd known all this at the outset. This is not fringe stuff or rocket science.

9. But just a little bit too narrow would barely ride up on the TT? Answer: That is the worst spot where the TT inserts into the Latissimus Dorsi. 

It is my firm belief and opinion that anybody that aspires to be a responsible horse owner should investigate this area.

End


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## gottatrot

Yes, the most important thing is _learning to listen to the horse_. That can be easy for me when I can figure out what the problem is. But sometimes I have "so much" knowledge and believe that everything is right, and the horse tells me it isn't. That can be very frustrating. 
Horses require so much detective work.

I've had the perfect saddle fit on occasion, in my mind. Felt really good putting the saddle on the horse because everything was level, no rocking, no bridging, it was short enough, wide enough, tall enough, and looked perfect. Rode the horse in it for awhile and the horse didn't like the saddle. Put on a different saddle that I didn't think was as great, and the horse was very happy and moved better.

What can seem microscopic to us can matter a lot to the horse. What can seem big to us the horse might not care about.

Really, honestly, we have to remember that most of what we are dealing with are theories. How many things have been actually and definitively proven with horses? So while I am all about learning facts and new things or old tried-and-true methods, I still have to test it out on the individual horse. 

I enjoy reading about theories of training. But when it comes down to me on a new horse, I experiment a lot to see what works and also what I can figure out how to actually do in this environment at this time on this horse. 

Take Rascal. I want to get him positively thinking and enjoying our rides. The first thing I can do is try to get tack he likes and follow some principles about not asking too much, etc. But when I take him out on the beach, and feel him bunch up under me and getting tense, what works for _him_? I can try a number of things that have worked on other horses. Many horses I've worked with I would never use a crop on. But all I know how to do is listen, listen, listen.

Halla is either flow or explode. Her energy flows forward, and if I block it too hard she's going to push through and I'll have to catch up in a moment or else the energy level is going to get too high to manage (meaning, we'll run off or I'll fall off). She's still sensitive enough that my voice and aids will reprimand her.

Amore is flow only, meaning you can't even try to contain her when upset, and you just have to manage your direction until she calms. You don't reprimand her. There's no such thing as "shut down."

Rascal seems to be like some of the horses where people talk about "shut him down." He blocks his own energy easily, and if I turn him when he's tried hopping or a buck, he comes down to earth. It's more like "snap out of it!" and he does. So the crop I'd never use on my own horses is actually helpful. A smack on the hind really quick when he leaps up actually seems to cut through his own emotional upset and bring him back down. Which is why I was noticing my reins flying in my recent video, as I threw them forward to free my right hand to give him a smack.

So the principles of positive and negative reinforcement and all that are a bit nebulous when it comes down to practical riding for me. I basically see what works for this horse, and what doesn't. I've tried just ignoring Rascal's little agitation when upset, but he seems to take that as a sign it's fine to do and keeps throwing in some bucks or hops. That's not going to fly once he's being ridden by riders who don't want to hop around every ride. 
He also seems to get himself blocked from forward motion when upset, so it's tricky to just ride him forward. But he does seem to be able to snap out of it so far if I reprimand it, so that's what I'm trying. 

All subject to change, because I have no answers except find out what works. 

I believe the poor horse Scout with the saddle that poked him because the screw was coming out would have learned to communicate with people who listened. Unfortunately, he came from a trainer that told him to shut up and move, and to an owner that told him to stop misbehaving and move. So he learned to suffer in silence.


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## bsms

@*Hondo* , where do you get this idea that the "Thoracic Trapezius" cannot be touched, or else it is like putting a knife in the horse's eye?

If virtually no one in the world makes a saddle wide enough for Hondo using your theory....then isn't that a clue? 

I did an Internet search and couldn't find ANY documentation that indicates the "Thoracic Trapezius" must not be touched, not even by a saddle pad. If it is a fundamental principle that leads to the need for 10" gullets...then where are the saddles? 

Even in barrel racing, where 0.1 second is huge and many of the horses are WIDE, and full use of the shoulder is critical:



> 2% of the sales today are for the TG™ and ProRacer™ with a 7" gullet. This is due to young horses being so much larger. In 2009, this figure was 20%! Now, there are a lot of these trees still out there due to the fact that until 2005, these were the only trees we built for barrel racing. They are still used, traded,and sold although most are used for training as they are mostly too narrow for finished horses.
> 
> The Rocket™ and ProMax™ which prior to 2015 have held 70% of the market, are now down to 38%. In the past, 7 1/2" gullets have been considered the "standard" for normal horses. Normal now is an 8" gullet like the UltraRocket™ and Maxed Out™, which hold 50% of the market share. The remaining 10% are allocated to the XL's (8 1/2") or XXL's (9"). These are available in both UltraRocket™ twist and Maxed Out™ twist.
> 
> http://www.caldwellsaddle.com/barrel-horse-fit.html


Martin, meanwhile, offers their barrel racing saddles in gullet widths of 6.5", 6.75", 7", 7.5", & 8". Their Crown C Barrel Racer tops out at 7.5". Their BTR & Stingray top out at 7".

If Hondo needs a 10" gullet width, then...??? Because the rest of the world isn't seeing what you are seeing...

PS: Yes, I often do misinterpret things with my horses. I try, but sometimes experimenting over a year or more gives me a different answer than I originally thought. And that is part of how I came to disagree with the Nikkels on putting the saddle snug into the pocket. I concluded the pocket existed in part DUE to having the saddle snugged up there, and moving it back a little helps get better performance from my horse. But I've put a 7" gullet on Bandit, and the bars of the tree literally hung over his sides...maybe 2/3" or more hanging in the air.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> @*Hondo* , where do you get this idea that the "Thoracic Trapezius" cannot be touched, or else it is like putting a knife in the horse's eye?
> 
> If virtually no one in the world makes a saddle wide enough for Hondo using your theory....then isn't that a clue?


First, I "got this idea" from many reputable and knowledgeable sources. And please do not put words in my mouth I did not speak. I did not say the thoracic trapezius cannot be touched but did quote others as saying it must not bear any of the riders weight.

Second, many people make a saddle with a 10 inch gullet with a bar slope that will fit his shoulders. But Hondo has a short back also. The 10 inch gullet is for a large draft horse and is too long for Hondo. It is from these saddle makers that I use the wire and measure down 3 inches. It only came to me after further reading why I was measuring down that far.

Third, this is not "my" theory. It is the findings of people who have studied this.

Schleese refers to the area being discussed as the Trapezius in the Thoracic area. He is one of many that emphasize the trapezius in the thoracic area must absolutely never ever bear the weight of the rider. 

Here is an article on M. spinalis cevicis that suffers from pressure on the trapezius. 

https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/

Even Rod gets into the Thoracic Trapezius show: The Trapezius muscle

Or you can just Google for the horse's trapezius. This is not something I just dreamed up. It's been around a long time. I'm surprised you are not aware of the dangers of the trapezius bearing weight.

It is wrong to wait around for the horse to try to tell us the saddle is bearing on his trapezius with the information that abounds. Doesn't make sense.

@gottatrot I have to mention that I am really puzzled that a horse would just not like a saddle that fit perfectly in all ways. To me, it would seem that at least _something_ must be wrong. I know for myself, I can get the tiniest bit of something in my sock and it can drive me nuts. Or the tiniest bit of something elsewhere in my clothing against my skin. I have a hard time thinking a horse can not like a saddle just because the horse doesn't like it. There has to be a reason I think.

This discussion is very stimulating to me and is helping me gather things together in my mind.


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## knightrider

I happen to own the ultimate horse who (1) knows exactly which saddles she will tolerate . . . and demonstrates her dislike violently and (2) hates saddles that appear to fit her beautifully and LOVES a saddle that is ALL WRONG. She tells me loud and clear which saddles she wants on her back.

On the other hand, the saddle she loves that appears to fit so badly has never given her a sore back. I've ridden her in that supposedly ill fitting saddle for many hours on multiple days and she's never been sore or lame. Of course, she's never been sore or lame in the saddles that she hates, but I rarely use them because not only does she violently kick out, shake and snake her head while being saddled, she gives me a rough ride if I soldier on and keep the saddle on her. So why would I do that?

I also have the book, What Horses Say by Anna Mews and Julie Dicker. In the book, the authors tell of a horse owner who spent hours with the saddle fitter finding the exact correct fitting saddle for her horse. Then the owner asked a horse communicator to get the horse's opinion. The horse said she hated that correctly fitting saddle and much preferred another not so correctly fitting one that the owner often rode her in. So . . . there's that too.

My opinion is: it's not as easy as it seems.


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## equesjumping

Am I allowed to share my horse story here? I hope I am :lol:


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## gottatrot

equesjumping said:


> Am I allowed to share my horse story here? I hope I am :lol:


Yes, please share.


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## equesjumping

OK, here's a short version of my ''horse time''

I've loved horses for a short time, although it feels like a lifetime.
I'm not one of those people that are born in the saddle, but I wish I was. 
My first ride was while at my grandparents w/ my dad, when I was abt 6 or 5 years old. There was a huge stable about aa 30min drive away, and we figured that it'd be fun to try it out. I still remember how my dad picked my up so this reaaaaly big horse could get a treat from me, and that very first tingle of it's lips and tounge was just so ticklish and mesmerizing 
From that point, I only remember a few other rides with a year or half intervals. Some slow trot here and there by the lead, but mainly just walking. 

Skip forward to a few years later, it's my 8th birthday, and we've found a stable that's 20min away from the city. My dad immediately took me there. It was just a walk/trot lesson, very short too, but I was in paradise. 
We then decided that I should take lessons there. Abt 3x a week, I had lessons, mainly on an amazing arabian- Dorian- but sometimes on other horses too. My progress was obvious. 4 months go by, and I'm already doing my first canter in the woods, while it's snowing. One of the most beautiful lessons I've had.
I kept riding in these stables for about 2 years, with my father taking lessons too. The more we rode, the more the stable owner trusted us, and gave us permission to ride together in the forest. We always had an amazing time, though I was a bad kid and seeked speed sometimes hehe 

It's the summer of 2014, and my dad passes away. I've wanted a horse for a long time, and my mother figured that getting one might help me get back on track.

Lotte, a 5'7hh bay hannoverianXtrakehner mare, wasn't very fit for children, but I still liked her. Oh the endless times she had thrown me off and taught me a lesson 
For the next 3 years, we stayed in a different stable and had many trainers so both Lotte and me slowly gained confidence in show jumping. We we're like a hand and glove- both have similar personalities and ambitions.

My mum and me realised that the stable we were at was too far from home. We started looking elsewhere, and found this riding society (I'll call it KSS here) that focused on the sport, not horses.
We took showjumping lessons on sundays, and dressage-ish ones on tuesday, friday, and thursday. The trainer was very strict, so I often was devastated after my lessons, but I still managed to love the showjumping lessons. My skills improve, and I make a lot of friends.
Unfortunately, the conditions at KSS stables weren't the best, so we had to move away since Lottes muscles started to get sore and puffy, which wasn't normal for her. 

Fast forward to now, we've found a natural horsemanship stable, where nearly all of the people don't ride. Only me, and another girl do. The pasture is HUGE and it just seems like their food supply is endless. Currently, I'm not jumping or riding with any kind of bridle bc Lotte needs to recover from my own mistake, and jumping is not preferred at these stables but eh... at least the horse is happy, right?



So, that's my story.


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## knightrider

@equesjumping, that is certainly an interesting story.
@Hondo, the thing that looks like it might be an extra pad is just a saddle string that got tucked up under the saddle--maybe brushed by a tree or while cantering or something.

The saddle was made in Columbia and is a no-name Paso Fino saddle. It doesn't look it, but it is soooo comfortable.

My heart horse Chorro, (in my avatar but minus the white spots because he hadn't gotten them yet when I took that picture) got the white spots from that saddle a bit behind the shoulder but not quite in the middle of his back, sort of on the sides. That's where the pressure points appear to be on Isabeau, but she never gets any ruffled hair or white spots. Every time I see those spots on Chorro, my heart aches a little. Chorro tends to react to injuries more than other horses. When I bought him as a yearling, he was perfect, but now, at 13, he has a bunch of swellings and scars. I know you can't keep them looking perfect all their lives, but I've always kept whatever horse I had until it died, and usually they don't have so many blemishes as my beautiful Chorro has.


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## Hondo

@knightriderHa ha. Yes, I did finally notice the string. (exposing my weak eyesight

Sounds like the bars have too much rock or dip in the middle for the horse with white hairs.

I'm still interested in knowing if those are the actual saddle bars I'm seeing exposed. Only saddle I've seen that on is a Trooper or 1902 UP.


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## knightrider

@Hondo, nope, no saddle bars exposed. Behind my house are 8,000 acres of quail hunting preserve and all the quail hunters ride in trooper saddles, so I know exactly what you mean. Under that Columbian Paso Fino saddle are two stuffed panels similar to an English saddle.


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## Hondo

I've known the Trooper was a favorite among those hunters but haven't understood why. They are sometimes called field trial saddles.


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## gottatrot

equesjumping said:


> Currently, I'm not jumping or riding with any kind of bridle bc Lotte needs to recover from my own mistake, and jumping is not preferred at these stables but eh... at least the horse is happy, right?


Great story, thanks for sharing. Hopefully you can make some of your own little jump trails and take Lotte out for some fun once she recovers. She sounds like a great horse.
@knightrider, that's a very interesting saddle. 
Chorro sounds like either accident prone or a bit more fragile type of horse. I understand, that's what Halla is like. I'm going to remember to never buy a horse with scars, because they may be from freak accidents, but some horses seem more likely to have those "freak accidents" than others. 

When I rescued Halla she had scars on her nose and behind both pasterns. It was from poor management. Still, even with good management, for a hardy horse she's gotten herself into so many scrapes and now has scars all over. Three horses can put their leg through the gate and pull it back out, but Halla is guaranteed to get stuck somehow. We had to hang her hay net in a unique way because she has gotten stuck in it twice this year, even though all the other horses have hay nets and don't get stuck in them. :icon_rolleyes:


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'm going to remember to never buy a horse with scars, because they may be from freak accidents, but some horses seem more likely to have those "freak accidents" than others.


Totally agree with this!! A friend bought a super cute bay arab, who I noticed seemed to have both a lot of "random" white hair in lines and some hairless scars. I didn't think too much of it initially.. until he started hurting himself. Repeatedly. I swear that horse simply cannot have all of his skin intact at any given time.


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## bsms

I've never seen a cut on Trooper. I don't think I've ever ridden Bandit where there wasn't a cut or scrape somewhere on his body. Of course, Bandit being Bandit, some of those come from Trooper - deservedly.


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## gottatrot

Best ride so far on Rascal today. 
He is learning fast. 

Yesterday I lunged him, which I hadn't done in several weeks. It was enlightening.

I figured out why Rascal is doing the hop when he starts into a canter. On the lunge line, he did fine to the right. To the left, he kept messing up. He'd start the canter with the inside hind. Then, he'd get the outside front down soon after. So immediately he'd have to jump up with the front and switch leads, landing just after the outside hind was hitting. Then the next stride was a little discombobulated as he got the legs synchronized, and finally the stride after that was cantering on the correct lead. 

I think what is happening is that he tries to always pick up the canter on the right lead in front, regardless of which lead he's already on in the back. But he doesn't crossfire, he fixes it, but rather awkwardly and only after a stride or two.

I'm quite positive that many people would have thought some of the things Rascal has done in our first rides were him "being a brat." What I'm seeing is every evidence that he would like to cooperate and follow the path of least resistance. 

After seeing how he acted on the lunge, what I observed was that if something happened that made him worry, he'd react with something fast and physical. For example, he slipped once and that made him throw his head and kick out, but then he calmed himself. I decided that what I'd done with the crop on our last ride wasn't really snapping him out of anything, his little hopping/bucking etc was probably just self limiting and the crop superfluous.

So today I didn't carry one.

The dune onto the beach has become massive and steep, and deep enough to go over the horse's hocks on places. Rascal went down a little faster than I would have liked, but understandably. Probably would have felt out of control to a novice rider but I don't think the speed was avoidable at this point.
You may notice Rascal is getting some hind end and neck muscling.









You will notice how popular the beach was today.









We probably went about four and a half or five miles, with quite a bit of trotting. Rascal was relaxing and moving out. The first time we trotted, when I asked him to walk Nala was still trotting and it took quite a bit of strength to bring him down to a walk. But at least six times he dropped to a walk for me very quickly with only the aids of me pushing slightly forward with my seat and closing the fingers of my right hand on the rein so it gave a soft and steady cue before I released it.

Rascal did not spook one time, and never had a single buck or nervous "flail." I am teaching him to ignore Nala. Nala's rider said "Uh oh, a log," as she was heading Nala toward it. Remembering how Rascal had leaped with Nala the last time, I sat and thought steady thoughts. She again hopped the log, and Rascal was like "I've seen that move before" and did not react. Nala cantered a few times (but did not leave us, not ready for that yet), and I kept Rascal in whatever gait I was asking for.









Once he broke into a canter suddenly without asking, and I immediately turned him toward the dune and he walked. 
We tried one canter but it didn't work. He felt too off balance so I brought him out of it. Nala's rider suggested that we go for awhile, a few strides but rather than rush it I wanted to think.

When I got home, I was thinking through it all. What I don't want is to have him not regain his balance and either get stuck and bucking (running off if I get launched) or put his head down and realize that with that much leverage he can bull through. I don't think he'd gallop for miles if he got away, but I really don't want him to pull anything or learn to take advantage of a less strong rider.

I'm a heavily right handed person, and I realize that since my strength is on that side, I've been keeping a little hold on that rein as we take off. Probably since he always likes the right lead, that is unbalancing him even more. I'm not yet willing to give up the ability to pull him up before he gets into full stride, should he try that. So my thought is to bring him into the fields and work on some cantering on a loose rein until I feel confident he can pick it up and also follow cues to drop back to a trot, which we have not practiced yet.










Since Nala's rider has decided to keep Rascal, she had a vet check done. She's smart, I might have skipped it since he was free, but of course there could be a hidden and very expensive issue. We knew about his slightly off center right pastern. The vet said maybe it would cause arthritis in old age, but at 9 she couldn't find any issues from racing and thought he was probably born with a slightly crooked leg and raced with it. He also has an oversized larynx, which feels like a lump under the throat but actually just increases the airway size. 

Apparently one of the previous people who had failed to get him going under saddle and returned him, had asked the vet about barrel racing him and she'd said "no." She did have a record of that person having his teeth floated last year, so that was good. With one main vet for the county, she sees the horses passed around and knows their history. The vet thought he'd be great for trail riding.


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## equesjumping

gottatrot said:


> Three horses can put their leg through the gate and pull it back out, but Halla is guaranteed to get stuck somehow.


Lotte has the same thing, and when she does get stuck, she just freaks out.


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## Hondo

This post by @gottatrot, instructionally, is looming large in my mind in that a very knowledgeable and experienced horse person who had surmised that a light physical reprimand had both worked and was what Rascal had needed but then with further thought and investigation concluded that there was a valid source/cause/reason for what had at first appeared to be just misbehaviour.


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## knightrider

About hard luck (accident prone) horses, I bought Chorro, the horse in my avatar, as a yearling. I bought him sight unseen from a photograph because I knew his breeding (and liked it) and I liked his looks. When he came off the trailer, I almost wet my pants, he was so beautiful and ethereal. I had never owned a horse like that in my life. I could afford him because he was an "oops" baby and could not be registered. I moved our pony Tico out of the largest, spacious stall so my brand new colt would have a great first night. I was babysitting my friend's three kids that day, and she picked them up at 11:00 that night. 

I went out to check my new colt and discovered he had gotten a screw up into his hoof and coming out his pastern! That stall had been used for years to fatten steers and our pony had used it for months, but 4 hours in the stall and my brand new colt had a horrendous injury. (The vet told told me to pull the screw out, wrap it in a disposable diaper, and call him in the morning. I felt like saying, "Oh yes, YOU do that to an unhandled yearling colt". The first thing he did when he arrived was to sedate the boy. Hah)

After the vet left, I called my friend in tears, sobbing, "I've bought myself a hard luck colt!" My friend has strong psychic feelings and she said, "No way, that colt's going to be fine for you. He'll do just fine."

She was right, and he has, only a few little things typical of young horses, but every little thing on him shows up as a swelling or a scar. When I had him gelded, there were complications (I did everything the vet told me to do, but oh well) and he has a permanently swollen sheath area. I hate it, because he is so sleek and beautiful.

On the other hand, when I graduated college, I bought a colt and got a job on the same day. The colt I picked out had horrendous barbed wire scars on one hind leg--I could afford him--and he never got majorly hurt again. He had amazing movement and beautiful form over jumps. Chorro hasn't been a hard luck horse (much) and that horse wasn't at all. You just never know.


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## gottatrot

@bsms had a really good post here: 
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/page123/#post1970457146
Got distracted by a discussion regarding horses seeking the bit, so had another comment on his journal. But there are some good things I want to think about so will ruminate over them here. Probably for too long.

Some horses that have been trained will not act like they have been trained for a variety of reasons. There are also many horses that will not respond any differently to training even if you take them back to the beginning and start them properly over and over. 
That's because horses are not computers, and you can't program them by plugging in formulas. There are a few reasons why a horse may not ever become light, soft and responsive in a snaffle unfailingly in all situations.

A common reason is that the horse has figured out that when he wants to ignore a snaffle, he can. It is rather common to find horses that people have given up on because of running through bits. You cannot always fault the training because some horses are very sharp and will figure this out one day because of an easy mistake anyone can make, such as thinking the horse was ready for a situation when they weren't. As I've often said, once they know what they can do, _they know_. They don't get some kind of amnesia because you go back into an arena and teach them to respond softly. They will always remember that when necessary, they can run right through that snaffle. 

Speaking of soft horses and soft minds, as @bsms pointed out, some horses are rather pliable mentally and will be reminded (or taught), this is what the bit does and how to respond. Some horses, however, will keep checking to see what sort of thing they might get away with.I don't think the horses is always thinking "Sheesh, if I run through the snaffle right here I'm being naughty." Sometimes they might just be thinking, "Sure would be fun to go really fast right now. I think I'll try it and see if she stops me." So the kid might get the cookie and then be punished, and sometimes that punishment is not enough incentive to stop him from taking a cookie the next time he wants one. 

But I think there is a huge variety of personalities and temperaments you might have to deal with in horses. I've never yet found two horses that were exactly alike. It's not just about teaching and learning but very much about who the horse is inside.

Take Amore. I believe she could run away with any rider at any time. I never used more than a very mild snaffle on her or a sidepull/bitless. That's because she has a very soft mind. She is as compliant as they come. If she understands what you are asking, she is happy to help you. She's cheerful and silly. But easily confused and even more easily scared. When her little brain is working, no one could ask for better responses. She has the softest feel, and I've tried that thing where you put yarn on the bit and use it for reins to see if you can ride and not break it, and she rode nicely in the arena, turning, stopping, changing gaits, circles. 

Now let's take this very soft and responsive little horse, and ride her out on the trails. Same thing, beautiful. The rankest beginner could ride her. You can stop her with a change in your breath, she's as sensitive as they get. Except sometimes she gets scared, or confused, and her little brain is not soft anymore. At that point, you can use more weight and pressure on the reins than I've used to stop a big, excited, galloping TB and you will feel like your bit is on the other side of a steel beam. Talk about a stiff neck. You get nothing. To stop her you'd have to tip her over on her head. 
But you can also gallop her on a loose rein, when her brain is chugging along fine, and say the "Wh" in "Whoa" and she's already stopping. 

So minds are not so easy to figure out, they're quite complex, really.

People talk about going to a bigger bit as a band-aid solution. I don't really think of bits other than snaffles as being bandaids anymore. I think of them as finding the right tool for the right type of mind. And body, because sometimes the reason a horse is not complying with you is physical.

An example of how minds are complex: I've ridden both Halla and Nala, who are both very hot horses. Both horses are very competitive and love to run. But their minds are slightly different. When Halla gets held back more than she wants to be, she gets explosive. So does Nala. Both horses might leap up in the air or try to push through the bit. The difference is that Nala has an up and down pattern to her mental excitement. She goes up, then down fairly quickly. Halla goes up, up, up for awhile. 

So if Nala pushes through the bit or leaps in the air (as she did on our last ride due to being frustrated over going so slow with Rascal), she can be allowed to trot or canter in a circle, or even galloped for a few hundred yards, and then she will once again be manageable. She is going in a simple snaffle, because you can get her mind back fairly quickly and then she will listen to you (albeit temporarily sometimes). 

Halla ended up in a leverage bit, because when she gets excited she keeps going up mentally. If she pushes through a bit, she will not come down in her excitement level, but will build. She enjoys the feeling of rushing off, and will then stay very excited for a long time. I believe this is a mental game for her, so it was very important to find something that she allowed to control her speed, and then the game would become more of a chess match which she also enjoyed. 

Halla and Nala both have the mental toughness to go long and hard distances. They will never give up on the toughest terrain, or get discouraged by heat or bad weather. They have the type of mind you would look for if you wanted a top athlete, whether it be a race horse or cross country or endurance horse. I believe Nala was late maturing, because she should have been very successful at the speeds we've clocked her galloping if she'd been that fast and motivated during her racing career. 

I don't believe that methods used for some horses to get "soft" and consistent will work the same for horses like Nala.
When you consider that this horse has a large 24/7 turnout, eats only grass hay and a couple pounds low NSC Senior feed, and goes for long rides several times a week, yet is still cantering in place and leaping in the air on the way home after a five mile ride that was "too slow," you can imagine how she might be with poor management. They tried to keep her in a stall and feed her grain, then train her for dressage. Fail. "Not suitable." Some horses are just more work than others.

I've never seen that trained horses put into a stronger bit need stronger and stronger bits over time. What I have seen is that some horses that will push through a snaffle will respond to a different, stronger bit, and will continue to go nicely in this bit for months and years.


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## bsms

> Take Amore...she has a very soft mind. She is as compliant as they come. If she understands what you are asking, she is happy to help you...But easily confused and even more easily scared. When her little brain is working, no one could ask for better responses...
> 
> Now let's take this very soft and responsive little horse, and ride her out on the trails... Except sometimes she gets scared, or confused, and her little brain is not soft anymore. At that point...you will feel like your bit is on the other side of a steel beam. Talk about a stiff neck. You get nothing. To stop her you'd have to tip her over on her head.- @gottatrot


That is a pretty good description of Mia. She had some fear and understanding issues for the first few years, to the point where the trainer I hired concluded she had never actually been broken - that I had been riding her for several years totally on good will. But a totally new rider, riding a horse who wasn't taught how to be ridden, will create some misunderstandings that need to be worked out - in both horse and rider.

Once that was done, she became butter in the arena.She was butter on the trail too - as long as she kept her mind. Using a curb bit, I wanted to ride without ever taking all the slack out of the reins. And we had many trail rides like that. We could ride 1.5 hours without ever taking the slack out of the rein.

UNLESS she became frightened, or got excited and became unhinged. Then...oh boy! And she would stay elevated, a pot of water at 205 degrees, waiting for a slight input that would bring her to full boil.

Bandit is very different. He never loses his mind. Well...at the very beginning, if you pressed him toward something that scared him, he would try to spin and bolt. But even then, he was still thinking enough to be workable. And I haven't seen any signs of him losing his mind in the last 2 years.

But he isn't butter and isn't going to change. If he feels like it...yes. We can do walk/canter transitions without more than a thought. I've done multiple turns in the arena on him at a trot, where I just look longingly in a direction, keeping my hand centered on the withers - and we turn. If he feels like it.

When he doesn't feel like it, one is going to get some fight. The bit doesn't matter. He'll fight back, to include bucking in a canter, or throwing a spin in, 180 degrees one way and then reversing. He gets upset. But unlike Mia, he calms down from very upset to relaxed in 60 seconds. Sometimes 2-3 minutes, tops. MUCH "saner". 

But tough, too. We can watch it in the corral. If he wants to play and the others don't...being bitten doesn't deter him. He just accepts it as part of the price he has to pay to get what he wants.

To date, my horses show no connection at all between how they respond in an arena and how they respond on a trail. If a problem appears on a trail, it will need to be solved on the trail. The horse understands the difference and responds differently.

"_As I've often said, once they know what they can do, they know. They don't get some kind of amnesia because you go back into an arena and teach them to respond softly._" - THIS. I just don't understand the "Get them soft in the arena" approach. I haven't met the horse who couldn't distinguish between the two.


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## horseluvr2524

Interesting thoughts on responsiveness to bits. I myself alternate between a bitless (dually halter or english mechanical hack) and a french link snaffle on Shan. Seems like about every 6 months or so we switch out. I'm not sure why, usually has something to do with responsiveness or I just feel like it. I'm not very consciously scientific about it, but I might be subconsciously scientific :lol:

She seems to do well with the infrequent changes. I hear you gottatrot on "once a horse has learned they can do it, they don't forget". Shan learned that she can throw all her weight into the nose of her halter and run off when you are leading her, and no amount of groundwork sessions make her forget.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Shan learned that she can throw all her weight into the nose of her halter and run off when you are leading her, and no amount of groundwork sessions make her forget.


Shan has always sounded like she has a mind that is sharp and doesn't easily give in. I've probably mentioned this before, but once I had a mini mare, Star get away from me on the lead. Can you believe it? A little mini. She was walking nicely and then suddenly just bolted off at a full gallop and I couldn't hold on. Every time people talk about horses running away on a lead I remember Star, and it cracks me up.

***************************************
My alarm went off at 4 pm this afternoon. Working 12 hr night shifts, I often try to get up earlier on my day off but I'm not one to skimp on sleep much. Couldn't get to bed until 10 am (I get off at 7:30) because the dog ate something disagreeable and there was a mess to clean up. 

At 4:13 I got a text from Nala's rider. "Are we riding today?" We are in a brief spell of clear skies for several days. Every horse person is thinking about riding.

We have three basic kinds of weather in the winter: big wind storms, rainy and warmer (40-60F) or dry and colder (30-45F). Dry is more rare, most people love it but sometimes it is a little cold for my taste. 

By 4:25 I had slammed coffee, thrown a saddle in the truck and was driving to the barn. As I was driving, I noticed the sun was nearly down and wondered if the text had been sent earlier and just pinged my phone. It was a full moon last night, maybe she thought we'd have enough light with the clear skies?

At the barn, Nala's rider was on Rascal at the top of the hill. She confirmed her text had been sent at 2 p.m., she'd already ridden Nala, had just barely started walking around on Rascal but was ready to leave and go for dinner. So I was able to hop on a saddled and warmed up horse. 

It's asking quite a lot of horses, but my schedule often leaves no other choice. My mares adjusted, and other horses I've ridden have too. But it's a lot to ask a horse to go out alone, when it's getting dark, and we can clearly hear the gates squeaking and the rattling of feed buckets as horses are being arranged into their night pens and fed dinner. I carried a crop, in case, and did have to swat Rascal once when he got frozen with ears swiveled back, listening to the other happy horses eating as he headed off into the unknown dusky fields.

He danced, a little, but it was nothing compared to Halla's complex ballet moves and he tired of it quickly. He has a rather soft mind and is not motivated to fight for what he wants. He tripped hard once, over a dirt clod, and was emotional about it. I can't say what his emotion is, whether he gets annoyed, scared, worried, etc but he dislikes tripping. He did a flinging move, it lasted 0.5 seconds and I just said "You're fine" and he was back into work mode in a moment.

I know the secret to cantering unbalanced horses, or ones that feel like they will buck. So we found the hills and cantered up them. Horses have to get their heads down to buck, and this is very difficult uphill, especially if they're not super strong in the hind end. I gave Rascal loose reins, and worked on getting the feel of his canter, and trying to push him on when he wanted to stop. 

He never made it more than a few strides, but on the third hill he put all his legs down in the right sequence, and balanced well with no hopping. We cantered up to a sharp corner where I needed to have him trot, and because of his good balance he had a very nice downward transition. 

Good boy.

Nala's rider's was talking to her BF about a saddle for Rascal, since ours are too small for him. He has only ridden western, said he didn't like Aussie saddles and I suggested an endurance saddle with western fenders. It was amusing to me today that she said she'd found a used Prestige dressage saddle like the one she rides Nala in. They are very nice saddles, I rode in hers today. Super easy to balance in, very comfy, and I looked for one before I got my Passier. Guess the BF will be learning to ride english.


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## knightrider

I am loving this discussion. I couldn't agree more with the things you are saying. I realize that I've been ignoring stuff that people say for many many years because I just didn't see it in my horses. I sort of guessed it might be true, but not true for me or not true for my horses . . . or something, but when people spouted the conventional wisdom, I just didn't go along with it. I feel like you all are kindred spirits. I wish we could all ride together and pick each other's brains (well, you wouldn't pick my brain too much because I don't know that much--I just ride--on the other hand, I've been riding since I was eight and starting colts since I was 12 and they've all worked out great--I think a lot of it for me is just gut feelings).


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## horseluvr2524

LOL! Everyone knows English saddles are better, especially dressage :wink: Calm down western peeps, I'm just teasing. I hope to get my DH riding Shan more. Unfortunately, Shan IS smart and knows if you know how to ride or not. If you don't ask correctly for something, or she knows that you can't make her do it, then she won't do it. I have visions of us taking turns riding Shan on the desert XC course I would like to build, but I think that may be some time in coming.
@gottatrot I always love the way you describe things. Very poetic. Reading your post, I really felt like I was there, riding out into dusky fields on a horse just a bit resistant but easily gives over to a twilit ride.
@knightrider I've always found your posts very intriguing and wish I could spend time learning from you in person. I'd love to try a paso fino as well, but I'm afraid that if I tried gaited horses, I might not appreciate regular horses as much. If I'm ever out by Florida, I might be contacting you to see if I could catch a ride on one of yours.


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## knightrider

@horseluvr2524, you are welcome to come ride any time. I've got too many horses, so always fun to have someone along. Just beware--there is something to the saying, "Once you go gaited, you can never go back."


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## bsms

The guy in his mid-80s who used to raise, train and sell horses for desert trail riding (using only a low-port solid shank curb bit in their training) strongly preferred TWHs. He says you can't afford to run across the desert, and usually can't afford to trot. So, he reasoned, why not choose a horse who walks fast and smooth? He called them "_The Cadillac of the Desert_".

I'm not planning on selling Bandit and going gaited. But I'll admit he makes a good case. For the sort of riding I like to do, a horse who walks fast and smooth would be a good match.

My daughter claims Bandit's rump wiggles like a hooker in high heels when walking. I prefer not to think about how she would know what that looked like! But still...he has no problems with stepping out. He just moves around while doing so!


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## gottatrot

Note: a couple pages were lost at this point due to forum update weirdness.
@Hondo asked me if there is a name for my addiction to swapping saddles. Not sure, but I've just not "bonded" with my Passier saddle, and noticed a L & R Elan recently showed up on Ebay, _beautiful_ saddle. Which made me do a casual search and I seem to have found a Rubicon in my size with an XW tree. Wow. That's something I've searched for many, many times without success. Thinking it over, but 98% sure I'm going to get it and rehome the Passier.

I guess if you are a compulsive gambler and see someone else with a worse addiction it makes you feel better? Just looking at what Nala's rider has in the tack room at our barn, I see five saddles, and I'm pretty sure she has more at home. 

Really good ride on Rascal today.

I lunged him first, which was mostly just to get some energy out because I was having him work just before feeding time, alone. So he was a little worked up, not too bad but definitely making his opinions known. Mostly he just wanted to canter fast and squeal, but this was in the round pen and was the most balanced and least hoppy canter I'd seen him do yet, on a rather small circle. So I just watched him for a few rounds to help my psyche understand that he does have some good balance and is clearing all his legs moving fast.

I'm not just cavalier about danger, since I've learned there are many ways horses can endanger themselves or their rider. I've had some thoughts, wondering if Rascal keeps hopping and bucking because he is unbalanced, or tripping now and then because of his offset pastern. Seeing him carrying himself well helped my logic, which gives me confidence.

After hopping on, I rode him around the round pen several times, then out and around the fields. He did not want to go away from the barns, friends and food. I didn't let him stop to think about it. Away we went, and if he didn't go one way I'd turn him another way until he was confused. Then I sent him forward, always forward. If he tried going laterally, I'd send him forward faster.

He can pick up the canter very smoothly, when he gets his legs right. It's getting better. The other very positive thing is that I sent him forward fast over very rough, uneven ground and he never tripped. He's figuring it out. 

Something important is that I seemed to find his balance point (with a rider), and I need to sit back more than I often do. He is built downhill and also has a low neck set, and it felt like he moved best when I sat back, perhaps weighting the front end less. 

Another thing I tried was changing him to a Kimberwicke. Time will tell, but when he got worked up and was thrusting his head down and forward, it seemed as though he may have been correcting himself with the chin chain. The chain did not seem to bother him otherwise, which made me wonder if one of the other three people who returned him tried a curb on him. 

Several times Rascal decided he was done with riding and wanted to go back to the barn for dinner. I think I'm getting the feel of his "thing" he does when he's frustrated (bunches up and feels explosive), and I didn't even circle him but just gave him a spank, hard legs and drove him on, not giving him time to stop and think, making him move off fast. That seemed to help his thinking for awhile. My strategy right now is reprimand, then move out. Hoping his brain works best in motion, like many TBs and Arabs.

I rode him faster than he wanted to go, which I enjoy doing to some horses. I'm not really about domination but it's a teaching point for the horse to understand he must try to work with the rider and not just do his own thing. Somehow if you ride them like the devil is on their back they start thinking: "Is she going to try to ride me right through that fence?" But it all works out and they realize you're rather assertive and perhaps they'll start thinking....trustworthy? If you don't actually run into a fence and keep them safe.

If a horse presents himself strongly, and I decide it's not fear but just expressing opinions, then I want to introduce the idea that he may not understand just how powerful I am or what I can make him do. 
Calling a horse's bluff is one thing, and perhaps he has gotten away with a "show of force" such as bucking and squealing. So although I know 100% that any horse can ditch me or dump me, I say to the horse, "You think you're getting me off? Think again!" And he starts to doubt his own power. 
Then I control his direction and speed, and soon hopefully we'll be having a conversation as a team, working together.

When I say I was riding him like the devil was on his back, I don't mean I was pushing Rascal with my legs but rather I just asked him to trot, and when he did, I gave him a loose rein, and when he started moving big, I posted that rhythm and kept looking ahead as if I wanted him to go as fast and far as he could. Meanwhile, his mind was thinking...









Then I rode him straight out to the end of the field, fast, and hopped off to let him graze. This surprised him, but he is a foodie and figured it out quickly. We wandered back toward the barn, stopping for nice patches of grass, until he seemed to wonder if he really did want to go home yet.

Funny thing I've never seen a horse do. We stopped along Badger's pen, and the two horses sniffed noses. Then Badger took Rascal's halter cheekpiece and held it between his front teeth. Rascal stood there, then tried to move away. Badger held him firmly by the halter. After another minute, Badger moved Rascal a couple feet down the fenceline, using his halter. Nobody was getting hurt, and Rascal just obeyed Badger so I simply watched. Not sure if Badger was ever going to let Rascal go, but eventually I flipped the end of the lead at Badger so he let go and we walked off.


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## gottatrot

Oops, I accidentally scared the pants off Rascal today.

It was raining, but it is my last day off work for awhile so I was determined to get another ride in. Saddled up Rascal wondering how it would be trying to get him to go out alone to the beach in the rain.

Tried to make things pleasant, brought him into the main barn for saddling and let him wander around eating hay, bringing him back to stand for saddling and bridling. He seemed to enjoy this a lot more than standing at the saddle rack outside.

We made our way down to the beach, with me being very encouraging and asking him to trot if he felt like he was worried or about to get stuck. When we came over the last hill, we saw the path was covered with elk.








Unfortunately, there were about sixty of them, spread out over a good distance along the grass. It was going to be difficult getting enough space to go around.
At first I tried trotting forward, then we crept, and as we got very close a big bull with spiky horns lifted his head and Rascal froze. I started to feel his heart pounding against my leg - *BOOM -BOOM -BOOM -BOOM*.

For a few moments, I thought about staying on, then I realized after about twenty rides or so I don't really know what might happen if Rascal got terrified, even though he was currently standing quietly. So I hopped off and led Rascal around the herd. He was very nervous and prancy, and blew a snort an Arab would be proud of, but eventually we got around the mob and carved our way down through the deepest dune to the beach. 

Thankfully the elk stayed up top and didn't come down to play.








Rascal is a different type of horse, I'm guessing he will be less difficult than some. I walked him around in a very large circle, around and around, defining a big "arena" in the sand. Then we stood quietly, and he tried rubbing his nose on me, a habit I am trying to break. But definitely thinking about himself, his own comfort, and not about dying anymore. 

Guess I try to be the Wizard of Oz for the horses I ride, granting them the chance to earn the gift of courage. Hopefully I'm working on building my own courage too.

So I got on, and did big circles and serpentines around the arena. There was a huge, very flat area today and we could stay on wet sand without getting into any loose stuff. 








I thought about how poor Halla had never been able to make as nicely balanced circles as Rascal was already. When we'd started riding with Nala, we'd used the beach as an arena like this, and it had helped Nala tremendously but Halla just couldn't get balanced with her asymmetrical body and was crooked and rushed. I'd finally figured out her inability to go on a loose rein relaxed was because of this, and even though Rascal is far from balanced, he's still far ahead of her and was going around on loose reins, making nice circles just following the angle of my seat, legs, torso and shoulders. 

Turning Rascal down the beach, the wind picked up a little but I thought I'd let him out to see if he'd canter. He wouldn't, because he wasn't quite secure enough to go that fast, preferring to keep a close eye on the drift logs and seaweed we were passing. 
We turned back for home, and I hopped off to lead him through the elk gauntlet.
They tried to bunch up and follow us a couple of times, but I made scary sounds and waved my arms until they thought twice about it. 

Walking up the hill, Rascal led beside me like I'd wiped the floor with him. We went through the gate into our home field, and I thought, "Better quit while you're ahead." But then a line from a movie (maybe _There's Something About Mary_?) popped into my head, "You're not _that_ far ahead." 

So I circled Rascal around the field and asked him to give me a nice canter up the hill. I sat back and deep, and he gave me the sweetest rocking horse canter, well balanced and striding out. After telling him what a good boy he was, I turned him for the barn, and I can't tell you when I've ridden in such a quiet horse back to the barn. It was only a 45 minute ride, but after thinking he'd be killed by the elk herd, and using his brain to follow all my directions on the beach, he didn't have a step of prance or jig or bobble left in him. He came in with a lowered head, extended walk, and didn't look at one thing until I stopped him at the barn door. 
He got wads of hay, a nice brushing, and I told him he was going to be a working boy now. He chewed and thought and blew horse slobber on me.


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## Hondo

RE: He chewed and thought and blew horse slobber on me.

Comment: After following a sober and enlightening post to end with this veiled truism about horses cracked me up and made my eyes water.


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## egrogan

Those elk are an incredible sight! We have our turkey flock to navigate, but that is a whole different ballgame!


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## gottatrot

I hope everyone had a great Christmas! 
Didn't end up getting the Rubicon L & R saddle - the seller never got back to me so perhaps she sold it or changed her mind. Oh well. My dressage saddle fits Rascal very well, and he is my ride right now.
I'm thinking about listing my Passier saddle since I think many people get saddles for Christmas in the wrong size and want to swap them out. That way I'll have the money on hand if I spot another Rubicon, etc.

For some reason Amore and Halla don't care for peppermint candy disks but they love the peppermint horse treats. The barn owner gave them a bag of apples, so they have had a nice holiday. 

Had a brief ride on Rascal Saturday before our family Christmas party. He was quite funny because he didn't want to go around the arena while the other horses were waiting for their dinners, and he expressed himself with enraged squeals. We'd walk up to a ground pole, where he might have to lift his front legs a _trifle_ higher, and he'd pause for a second, squeal loudly and then go over. It wasn't calling out to other horses, it was protesting to me that life was so unfair. But we did a very short ride, punctuated it with treats and grazing on the way home, and I believe he ended up satisfied. 

Hopefully will get more riding later in the week. 

I found another good article about how horse neck and back muscles work. I really feel I am learning a lot about how to get horses to use their bodies better. 
https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2013/09/04/stretching-neck-fairytale-reality/



> Looking at the muscles’ basic architecture, the lack of single contractile units spanning from origin to insertion contradicts the theory that an action exerted at one end of the muscles would be transmitted to the other end.
> 
> This simplistic thinking often directs equestrian theories such as those that believe the lowering of the neck elongates the back muscles. Inside the muscle’s body, cells are producing forces that are transmitted to other cells via connective tissues and so on. Muscle cells can create simultaneous forces acting in different directions.


As the article describes: if you hold a bucket on the end of a pole, the farther away and lower the bucket is from your body, the more your arm has to contract to hold it up. Doing this with your arm does not make it relax or stretch the muscles.

Lowering the neck does not stretch the muscles, but contracts them. When a horse lowers his head, it goes farther from the body and adds more weight that the horse must resist by contracting the neck muscles. 

For me, it is very interesting to understand that horse back and neck muscles have multiple insertion points. I realize that I've often thought of the back and neck muscles such as the latissimus dorsi or the splenius neck muscle as one single unit.

This does not work as a single unit.









The back muscles have multiple insertion points all along the spine. This means that every part of the back contracts and relaxes individually. There is no single band of muscle that connects the back, and the neck is its own complex system.









All of this makes perfect sense, when I think about it. Like our own backs and necks, horses have multiple muscles both deep, superficial, and between the ribs to move all the various parts of the back in different directions. Even when lifting a heavy weight, you isolate parts of your body.








We far oversimplify our horse's bodies in our minds. I am including myself in this statement. What I want is to start thinking of horse muscles as a whole group of complex muscles, and to realize that in order to bend in one direction, the horse must coordinate a bunch of various muscle groups including both contracting and extending muscles. That way I can avoid thinking if I pull here or push here, I will create this or that.

Just because our brains and nervous systems coordinate what we do seamlessly, it does not mean what we are doing is simple. It is the same with horses. Yet I believe understanding this will actually simplify my riding. If you understand how complex horse movement is, I believe you will be less likely to interfere and more likely to figure out how to stay out of the horse's way. If I want the horse to canter slowly, do I need to push and pull all the parts of his body together in order to create balance, or do I need to just figure out how to communicate to him that I'd like a slow canter, and let him use his nervous system to figure out how to get his own body to do it? 
I'm very interested to see how this change of focus will lead to changes in my riding and how the horses respond to me.


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## gottatrot

Tonight I wormed the horses. Quite entertaining.

First I sidled up to Halla, snaked my arm under her neck and around the top of her nose. By the time I was bringing the syringe to the side of her mouth, she knew what I was doing and looking at me reproachfully. I pushed the plunger and she froze. 
"Poisoned."
She planned to stand there, not moving her tongue forever. 

I left and went to worm Amore. Sidled up to her, snaked my arm around her neck and around the top of her nose. She looked at me sweetly. "Hi."
A moment later, she tried to move her nose toward her food. Immediately, she was hysterical. "Can't reach my food! Can't reach my food!"
I pushed the plunger. Her eyes got soft. "Oh. You were just putting stuff in my mouth. Good."
She tasted it. Her mouth opened and a wad of hay mixed with wormer plopped on the ground. I hadn't realized she had that much hay in there.
I grabbed her nose and gave her the rest of the tube. She was starting toward her hay already and panicked again. "Can't reach my food!" I let go as her mouth opened and she grabbed a bite of hay, forgetting there was more wormer in her mouth. Chew, chew, swallow.

Looked back over at Halla, standing frozen not moving her tongue.
"Poisoned. I'll never move my tongue again."
I went over, opened Halla's mouth and moved her tongue around. Put a carrot in her mouth. It sat there. I moved her tongue and the carrot dropped out. Poison had ruined her tongue.
I put a wad of hay in her mouth. It sat there, hanging out the side. She went and stood near her hay, looking at me forlornly, wishing she could eat, that she didn't have bitter poison in her mouth.

I scratched Halla and massaged her knees. One eye enjoyed the rubdown. The other looked disappointed that I had poisoned her. Finally I gave up and left, knowing Halla would eventually lose the bad taste and start eating the food I'd left for her. Amore rubbed her head on me and continued eating steadily.


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## Hondo

Do you use apple flavored wormer? I would have to sedate Hondo to get a tube in his mouth. And he'll spit anything out that he's not sure of. But if I mix apple flavored with at least 1/2 coffee can of pellets, and personally hold a dish at a comfortable height, then he will eat it all up with gusto.

The five day panacur has a humongous tube. 23 horses five days in a row? Didn't even try. I mixed it with their daily pellets.

I know you've been doing this longer than I so I assume they are too picky to eat poison diluted with their favorite food?

Horses! Yup. They're all different. Actually, if they were the automatons many non horse people think they are, I likely would have tired of them by now.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Do you use apple flavored wormer? I would have to sedate Hondo to get a tube in his mouth.


The vet thought we should all use Quest Plus this time. We barely need to worm anymore since the two horses that were heavy parasite shedders moved away (we do fecals to check). Our barn owner bought the wormer in bulk to save us money, so I didn't think about the flavor. It smelled unusually awful and like chemicals. 

Regardless, Amore is easily fooled and normally doesn't spit wormer out. Halla is far too smart to be fooled, and I've tried diluting wormer in a lot of feed and she just decided the whole thing was poisoned so I had to throw it all out. She's not one of those you can give medicine in applesauce or anything like that. If I put medicine in an apple, Amore thinks I'm giving her an apple with a slightly off taste. If I put medicine in an apple for Halla, she thinks I'm feeding her a poisoned apple and will only sniff.

I try not to give Halla Bute or anything even when she's injured, because she will not eat anything for hours if there is a bad taste in her mouth. Flavored Bute is still poison in her book. 

The horses were all hunkered down in their sheds this afternoon. It was very rainy today. I've seen horses that don't go in sheds when it is raining around here, but I believe that is mainly due to the shed design. Our sheds are tall, open, airy, clean and oriented in the right direction to block the worst weather. All the horses prefer to stand in them when the weather is bad. 

When I was at home, I wanted to ride. When I got to the barn, I really didn't want to. But I told myself, "Why would you even own waterproof riding pants if you weren't going to ride in the rain?"

Last night I was imagining how I was going to learn to really ride well this next year. My visualizations were of my body perfectly balanced over my horse, moving in sync, my leg and rein cues smooth, distinct, releasing perfectly. Poetry.

In the real world, I got on Rascal and it was rainy, windy, cold and he wanted to be hunkered down in his shelter. He dragged his feet, he pranced, he rushed, he stuttered sideways. In the real world, I kept him from running into the fence, from tumbling down a hill, from dashing home, from screaming "help!" to his buddies. 
I think in the end he was just mouthing a silent (_"help me"_). 

My face was cold after one loop around the pastures, so I took Rascal down the hill and lunged him. The round pen was more sheltered, so we both felt better there. Rascal is starting to listen to my voice and do transitions when I ask 90% of the time. He didn't buck into the canter, and just worked so nicely. I was proud of him. He got lots of treats, and I believe he thinks I am nuts but possibly don't mean him any harm. 

Thankfully, horses don't get on the internet so he doesn't know that Smilie's horses and Acadianartist's horses are getting breaks from work due to the weather. Or what X thinks of Winter. If anyone told him that I'd have real problems.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> I think in the end he was just mouthing a silent (_"help me"_).


I can't stop laughing. :rofl:


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> "Why would you even own waterproof riding pants if you weren't going to ride in the rain?"


Hardcore!


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## knightrider

"Thankfully, horses don't get on the internet so he doesn't know that Smilie's horses and Acadianartist's horses are getting breaks from work due to the weather. Or what X thinks of Winter. If anyone told him that I'd have real problems."

Oh, but Isabeau DOES get on the internet and her favorite section is the Member Journals. Luckily, she's all wound up about being thrilled with herself, so she hasn't really noticed that she is working every day while the northern horses are lazing.

I just love your funny descriptions, that wormer one made me laugh out loud. Thanks for brightening my day.


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## gottatrot

Darkness was falling...
Moon was rising...








Faster than I was moving toward the barn...







Seeing is overrated anyway, I thought. I'll go riding in the dark.







​Lucky for us, it was a super moon.







​Rascal went out without a fuss. He was standing over his grain bin, waiting patiently, the woman inside the grain room rattling the buckets nearby. Poor horse, I thought, expecting him to take issue with my timing.

Turns out, he knew it was a holiday, so thought he was working for grain-and-a-half. I didn't tell him he was working for straight pay. 

Nala's rider had ridden Rascal in the round pen yesterday. She had brought a lovely bit - I hadn't realized she had a nice Myler Kimberwicke with good tongue relief. My cheap Kimberwicke is barely large enough for him, so I happily used hers.







Between the moon and my headlamp, I could see the ground well enough to avoid any big lumps in the open west field. Rascal marched out, and I noted how it was easy to focus on the feel of a horse in the dark. His walk was smooth and rhythmic. His trot was rushed for a moment, but then steadied. 

I've been cantering at the same small hill, which was very helpful today. He was thinking I might ask, and I told him a couple moments beforehand that "I'm going to ask you to canter." He likes to listen to your voice, and is learning commands well. When he felt my weight shift a moment later, he picked up the canter smoothly and continued until we hit some rough ground, at which point I asked him to slow.

With a green horse, I find that it's not just they who need to learn to trust me. It is a two way street, and I have just as much need to get the feel of their body, their reactions, and imprint those into my nervous system. 

At the beginning of the ride, I was considering going around the back trail by the creek, over a section that sometimes gets small washed out spots. I thought there was enough light to see, but before we got to that section we went by a shed full of black logs with the gate propped open. Rascal thought SOMETHING was in the shed. He startled and spooked, and we ended up about ten feet away from where we started. 

Several weeks ago, I would have had an unavoidable visceral concern about what he was going to do. I.e., my endorphins would have gone on alert. But the feel of him is getting programmed into my system, so I noticed I was unconcerned. I was confident if I wanted to, I could take him by the SOMETHING in the shed. But it occurred to me it might not be so smart to slip down a wash into the creek in the dark on a black horse, so I simply turned and we went another way.

I felt no need to make Rascal go by the SOMETHING, because if it were important I could and would have. It was fine for me to agree with him that we should avoid it today. In my experience, developing a good working relationship with a horse is not about several big battles, but rather about thousands of little things that you go through together over time. 

On the way home, Rascal continued marching and did not rush. I kept telling him he was so good. The black dog ran out and barked, Rascal shuddered and thought about whether he needed to run off. Again, I could tell I am starting to get the feel of him, and I knew he would recover in a moment, so stayed relaxed. He did, and we continued on. He is a brave, smart and very accommodating boy. The blustery fellow of a couple months ago is not his true self, I can tell. He is developing. 







We don't have a real riding routine, but Rascal's life is routine with a stable herd, regular feedings, and daily handling. As well, I try to make all the pieces of what I do with him routine. I saddle him and bridle him the same way, calmly and gently. I pick up his lead and walk off as if he is always ready to follow. Horses seem to find comfort in people who behave in predictable ways. Rascal was not stressed about coming in for his dinner late, he knew he would eat and wasn't worried. He stood nicely while I unsaddled him, and was far more polite than Amore's ever been about heading over to the grain bin once he was loose.


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## gottatrot

We got Nala and Rascal down to the beach today. 

Nala has not been ridden in several weeks. She had a small toe crack that developed into some white line disease. Her rider tried soaking it and the farrier tried trimming it out, but it was continuing to move up so yesterday the vet came and helped resect the area. The farrier hot-set a shoe on, and now there is an open mouse-hole shaped area at the toe. They soaked it with Oxine so hopefully everything will be cleaned out now.

She is still cleared for riding on soft ground, and the open area is only in the lower 1/4 of the hoof. 

Of course, Nala is one that winds up after time off, so she was a bit wild. 

Rascal, on the other hand is becoming confident. The first time Nala galloped into the air without going anywhere, Rascal thought about hopping around but let me stop him. After that, he just watched her and didn't react, no matter what she did. Nala can do several gallop strides in a row, with her legs doing four beats but with her rider holding her back so she doesn't go anywhere except up and slightly forward. It's rather impressive. Makes me wonder why they don't do a collected gallop in dressage competitions.

Obviously, Rascal had his own antics to try. He could have been called Shenanigans because he's full of them. 
His audible expressions are varied and hilarious. He will squeal and sometimes snort like a pig. Not a soft kerfuffle or sharp blast, but an actual oink oink kind of sound. He also groans loudly once in awhile, as if he is just being asked to do so much.

But we are making tremendous progress. He did spook a couple times, did a little hopping and tried rushing through a cue or two, and once I heard his right hind leg whip through the air behind my ear, even though his back didn't lift more than an inch or two. He must have a quite flexible pelvis. 

However, he was able to go around without tripping at all, and the sand was deep today but he didn't buck. We cantered several times on the beach, and I never had to break him down for trying to rush off. There was no bucking or crow hopping, he just gave me a nice, round canter and kept it up once for almost a minute. We went safely down the steep dune onto the beach, which has built into quite a deep, shifty mountain due to high winds. 
For the first time I felt comfortable to try riding up the dune on the way home, and Rascal walked, trotted and pulled himself right up without leaping or bucking. 

I'm feeling like I am with Rascal's movement now, and also that I "have his number." The trickiest part is when you're getting a horse going (or going again, with some horses) and the horse reacts, then the rider tends to overreact despite their best intentions. If you're not quite sure what is going to happen, the best strategy is to be sure you can handle it. But after a bit, you can read the horse better and know how far the spook is going to go, how fast the horse is going to calm down, and how bad their hops or bucks are. Then you relax.

Improvement will come more quickly now, I believe, because having a comfort level with a horse means there are no overreactions or tenseness from the rider, and so the horse tends to relax more and more too. Within their mental capabilities, of course. I found myself going on a loose rein today, most of the time. 

Hopping on a strange but trained horse, I never have this learning curve. With greenies and remedial or very hot types, I do.
I've been on many horses where I was told they were trained, used to the work, used to the environment and the feel from the horse was that this was true. When the owner said I could gallop the horse, I felt quite comfortable to do so. But I'm never going to hop on a Nala or a horse where they can't tell me what the background is, and attempt to gallop away without a good, long period of me getting to know the horse. Canter, perhaps, if all feels well.

After awhile on the beach, Rascal started putting his head down low and curling his neck under. I had been on a loose rein, so knew this was not an evasion. He also gave me no indication he was feeling like bucking. I suspected he was getting tired from using his neck muscles, so was letting his nuchal ligament take over some of the work. So I just let him do that for awhile, and sure enough, after he rested for a bit he lifted his head and began working again. 

What I'd read about the neck muscles was that some are connected with the shoulders, which were working quite hard in the deep sand. The one numbered 56 on the chart below looks like it would get worked along with the shoulder. Makes sense Rascal was tired after awhile, even though we only did about two miles in the sand.


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## Hondo

I have dealt with two toe cracks that I resected myself a little more than 1 inch high on the front. It was my experience that treatment had to continue on the basis of a minimum of two to three times each week without fail. It of course takes about four months for the crack to fully grow out, providing the infection doesn't continue making it's way upward.

That's a long time to be meticulously dedicated, and toward the end I fell off thinking, oh well, it's about grown out. Not. The infection re-established and it took at least a month longer for a solid white line in that area than it would have otherwise.

The idea is if the resection takes all of the bad stuff out and exposes all to air, then all will be well but leave one little bug and in time another deeper resection will be needed. That's why I would continue to treat. My personal choice is Thrush Buster but there are other favorites.

I realize Nala has professional care beyond my experience but I wanted to throw that in.

These pictures are from 9/2015



















__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## knightrider

Gottatrot, I love love everything you said. It is so true. One of the joys of owning a horse forever is that you get to know it so well. You almost read each other's minds and nothing scares you. I am getting there with Isabeau, and have a bit to go to get there with Acicate. Chorro is my soul mate, from my having raised him from a yearling and done all of his training. But I well remember the hairy times when Chorro was 3 and 4 and 5 and we didn't know and trust each other the way we do now.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, 
Yes, so true. You have so much more with your horses because you have spent the time learning them. 
@Hondo,
I agree, I'll remind Nala's rider she needs to keep treating the area for quite awhile. Personally, I've treated some cracks in Amore's hooves and been able to get them to grow out by keeping up on them. She's more prone to infection because of the Cushing's, but hasn't had issues. The one thing the farrier did was bring back Nala's toe more, and I am sure that will help. 

People blame the sand around here, but what happens is that if the horse hits a rock and gets a crack (and we have big, loose rocks in the fields), the sand tends to work up into it and brings the organisms with it. If you either keep the cracks treated (I also like Thrush Buster), or trim the splits off when they're tiny, you won't have issues. In my mind it's a multi-faceted approach. Keep up on the hoof trim, feed the minerals so the hooves are stronger and tend to crack less, and keep the hooves clean and treat any signs of infection or split areas.

Halla actually hasn't had any problems with her rotation growing out, because I've been keeping up on it. It's kind of sad that she finally has her digestion working well, and her hooves are good, but she has the knee issue. Without that, she'd be healthier than she's ever been.


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## knightrider

All this talk of saddles has got me thinking again about that little treeless saddle that isn't much more than a surcingle. I was researching it last year and would love to try one. I can't remember the company that makes them. I know they are made in England and seem very expensive for what they are. Was it you, @gottatrot who wrote about it? If not you, do you remember the saddle? And the name of it? I googled everything I could think of, but couldn't find it.

There are none for sale in this country--must be imported from England. Some day I want to try one (or even own one).


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## knightrider

Found it! It's called Total Contact Saddle


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## Hondo

@gottatrot is spreading this saddle disease all over the internet. She as much as admitted it.


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## egrogan

@knightrider- what part of your body actually ends up in contact with that "saddle?" :eek_color: Wild!


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## Dragoon

Hi Knightrider, that was me who brought up the Total Contact saddle. 

I purchased a Libra treeless saddle from a girl here in Ontario. In emailing back and forth, I was told she was selling off the Libra because she had gotten a TC saddle and LOVED it. She has a hard to fit thoroughbred. She said the TC saddle solved all her problems as well as improved her riding so much. Without knee blocks and cantle to put you in the right position, you have to develop a good seat on your own. If I recall correctly, she said she is using an aerated gel pad with a Heather Moffat seat saver as her interface between her and the horse. 
She is a friendly girl, I can forward you her email by PM if you want to ask her about it. Yes, she ordered hers from England, and had extra Ds put on to accommodate breast straps. 
Not a lot of information out there on these. 

I have a gelding who is 23 this year, and his back is sagging. I worry that he is comfortable! And I ride an OTTB mare who is getting steadily more nasty under saddle. She was sweet a year ago when I was using the BO's treeless saddle. He sold that saddle to his friend, and they don't make them anymore (it was a Black Forest?). So far I've bought three different treeless saddles, and hated them all. The only one that worked beautifully was the one that wasn't mine, and I didn't jump at the chance to buy it because it was over large for me and UGLY! Like, hideous, and way too big for my 14 and gelding. It was OK on the 16 hand TB. I thought I could get one that better fit me and my gelding, too. I didn't think it would be this hard!
Considering the Ghost, but tired of spending money only to be disappointed.
But I'm also tired of the mare's bucking and biting when saddling. She's a very sweet horse, I'm convinced that she is being pinched by wrong tack. Her skin is so sensitive, she gets antsy if you use anything but the softest brush and the lightest touch. Poor little flower...


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## Hondo

Dragoon said:


> Considering the Ghost, but tired of spending money only to be disappointed.




Well, so far I'm impressed with the Ghost for a couple of reasons. The narrow twist which may not be as important to some, and the lack of a need for a treeless pad for many horses.

The Barefoot is also a great saddle but the twist is a little wide for my likings. It does need a substantial treeless pad for any horse, at least at my weight of 175.

I haven't really done a good test on the Ghost as the leathers I have are all super thick creating lumps under my thighs. New thin leathers arriving Friday but may have to do another 8 hour ride with the trail committee on Saturday so will take the Trooper for that rather than trying to test on a group ride. But the Ghost is looking to be my choice of saddles in the future. The Barefoot will likely be offered to a new home.


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## Dragoon

Thanks Hondo, I'm looking forward to your longer test ride of the Ghost!

When I got my gelding, the first thing I did was order a Barefoot saddle. He is a former lesson horse and his school saddle bridged like crazy. All saddles bridge on him. The Barefoot came and I rode in it for like, 10 minutes. Impossible. Could not post the trot. It felt like my feet were somewhere behind me and I was being pitched forward. I tried it one more time, with the stirrups adjusted as far forward as they could go, then sent it back. The dealer was lovely and gave me a full refund; the saddle really was unused. 
I know now, but didn't then, that I have to use a thick wedge under all saddles to lift the back end due to his high withers and steep drop. I cannot find my balance in a saddle that drops backwards. So I wonder if that saddle might have worked out...but am not willing to buy another. 
A year later, my BO had picked up the really large (18 inch) Black Forest(?) treeless. It was a dream to ride in. A big comfy couch, though I did slide around in it. It looked silly on my little black pony. I wanted one just like it, only smaller. The TB mare was well behaved in it. (buuut...she was also weak and underweight at the time...)

I found a cheap used plastic treeless last summer. It was too small, pinching me everywhere. Got rid of it. 
Now I have the Libra treeless, which very pretty, but again is too small. The pommel digs into my thighs and the whole thing is made of that grippy suede stuff. I really dislike grippy suede, be it full seat breeches or saddle seats. Having the saddle grab me by the seat of the pants is not a pleasant sensation! Its going to have to go.

I like that you can custom order the Ghost down to every detail, the colour, materials and stitching.

I also like that the billet attachments slide forward and back. The TB mare I ride has a very forward girth groove whereas my boy does not. That alone might convince me to try a Ghost when I get the money to do so. 

This is the best photo I could find of my gelding's back.


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## Hondo

@Dragoon You may already know, but just in case I'll tell you that Badlands has a trial program. And she prefers that you take pictures of your horse at various angles and also of you on your horse in the saddle you now use.

She likes to send any shims or instructions she feels might be needed for you to have the best experience possible. Sure, that will increase her potential for a sale i'm sure, but she is helpful even when there are no dollar signs hanging around. Her persona, to me, just seems very warm and sincere.

So check out her website and check out the trials program. If you don't have her website, here it comes....


https://www.badlandsequine.com/


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## Zexious

@knightrider - Very interesting! At that point, why not just go bareback? xD


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## knightrider

@Zexious, I am thinking that the Total Contact Saddle is more stable than a bareback pad. I imagine you can mount from the ground with it. I used a bareback pad for 8 years when I had to take babies on all my rides. My husband refused to watch the kids while I rode--he said I didn't need horses if I had kids. So the kids went along with me. I got really used to riding in the bareback pad--thought nothing of it. I don't ride for hours and hours, just an hour or an hour and a half hack around. I've never had a horse with a sore back (yet). My real concern with the Total Contact Saddle is the cost--yikes! Expensive! I wish I could try one. They look fun.


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## gottatrot

I've been worried a bit for a couple weeks, noticing Halla has been looking a little more sore on her bad knee. We've had several days of very nice weather, and a couple days ago someone told me they saw my horses looking so happy, and Halla was running around. 
Well, I think she might have done something bad to her knee, since she was limping yesterday. Today she is worse, so I called the vet.
The vet said to watch her a couple days to see if things get better, otherwise they'll come see her.

The vet asked if she could have laminitis again. I'm not sure, but if it is I don't have any idea what more I can do since she's off grain and our hay is tested, plus she's negative for insulin resistance or Cushing's. I'm thinking it is her knee (the bad one is on her right side). Of course, last year in January was when she foundered before.
The only other thing I could do is take her off pasture, and I think it would be better for her then to go on to greener pastures rather than be shut away from her friends. I know she's been having low level pain for awhile, so I have to think about it.

I'm supposed to give Bute for two days, then call and let the vet know if she is any better or worse.
Here is the poor girl:


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## bsms

Can't really "like" a post like that one. Bandit hurts himself often enough that I keep wondering if he'll really do something bad. Part of me in some ways is willing to move on from horses. That may be odd to admit, but my wife & I aren't getting younger with time and horses impose some constraints. OTOH, poor Cowboy does NOT need to move anywhere! It took him over a week to forgive me for riding him in the arena. I'd step in his corral and he'd look scared, like I had violated some fundamental element of trust. Trooper is probably losing his eyesight in his left eye. He seems to enjoy Bandit's playing, but a horse who has given us 10 years of good service and who is not in any pain...there are elements of behavior worth trying for, and betraying an animal's trust is disgusting.

Bandit? I suspect I could sell him. He's only 9. But he is also the corral clown, Trooper's playmate - and I think Trooper's protector. Bandit has always acted responsible for others. Trooper isn't above bullying Bandit if Bandit is hurt, but Bandit...takes responsibility for and protects the others. I think they would be lost without him. And Bandit is the one who makes us laugh. What horses give goes far beyond just riding them.

But if Bandit was hurt and would be in constant pain? He would be SOOO miserable shut up from the others. There would be nothing fair about keeping him on, then. But all of them have given us so much...


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## Hondo

That's lame. Rimmey came up lame a while back but turned out he had a stob stuck in his frog. I won't even ask if you've checked her feet.

I've never quite understood the problem with the knee. Is it calcification in the knee like the ring bone pictures? Spurs in the knee like athletes get? I guess there is nothing that can be done for the problem or it would already have been done.

Oats are gone. I would not suspect it based on just the time of year. But it's something, that's obvious.

I will be keeping my fingers crossed.

Edit: Right leg....right?


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## egrogan

Hoping you and the vet get to the bottom of what’s going on with your lovely girl. Sending healing thoughts.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I've never quite understood the problem with the knee. Is it calcification in the knee like the ring bone pictures? Spurs in the knee like athletes get? I guess there is nothing that can be done for the problem or it would already have been done.


It's calcification of the collateral ligament. These are the Xrays that were done in the summer, you can see the calcification. Unfortunately it's a mechanical problem so things like joint supplements won't help. The ligament has become a hard piece instead of a band that slides with movement. I looked into surgery, but there is degeneration in the knee too that is irreversible and they say surgery seems to stimulate the calcification to happen even faster. And you can't just cut out a ligament. 

Thank you all for your thoughts, they are helpful.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> saw my horses looking so happy, and Halla was running around.
> Well, I think she might have done something bad to her knee, since she was limping yesterday. Today she is worse, so I called the vet.


Day before yesterday I was in the saddle for 7.5 hours. Yesterday I hiked in near impenetrable brush in places for around 5 miles.

With areas of bone on bone on both knees. Guess what? I'm walking kinda funny today.

Hoping that as you suggest she just over did it and will recover.

Also, for the first time in months, Meka got away from me on our evening walk and would not come it. Chased coyotes all night. I found her in the field and it did not appear that she could even stand. I thought for certain they had finally done her in. She wouldn't get up and come with me. Nothing.

I carried a log over near her to sit on. This is about 7:30 AM/30F. I massaged her all over and finally got her to let me turn her over. Worked on the other side and she finally sort of raised up. Then about five minutes later she struggled to her feet and we walked slowly a 1/10th mile or so back to the house. She is up and around but not wanting to go out of the yard this evening.

I mean I had her buried. I was thinking about where. Looks like she'll be around another 2-3-4 years. (if i keep her in at night)


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## gottatrot

This morning Halla was leaning her back end against the wall and reluctant to move. I gave her Bute and called the vet. By the time the vet could come out this afternoon, she was walking along gingerly but appeared much less painful. 

I appreciate our vets very much. Our usual vet was out of town, and we only have two in our county but both are very intelligent, reasonable and experienced. The vet told me that knees can be absolutely horrible and they just don't give out suddenly. They'll slowly deform to one side and make a horse uncomfortable, but apparently it's a slower process, and he said he's seen horses with just terrible knees that are still working. That makes sense to me, because Halla was not lame from her knees until last summer, and they were very deformed and lumpy even when she was sound. 

So...the verdict is laminitis again. The vet has been seeing cases, and says that's because we've had a very mild winter and it has only been below freezing a couple times. There was a warm spell last week with temperatures in the 60s. So it's not "winter laminitis," but "spring laminitis" in January. 

I was so comfortable having Halla on grass even though she's had laminitis, because she tested negative for IR and Cushing's last year. The vet said the science isn't yet that perfect, there's a spectrum where the horse might not yet test positive but yet keep getting laminitis, then later will test positive. I remember hearing that some horses with really bad numbers will sometimes do better than others that are barely positive for Cushing's or IR. 
Plus it's January, and even though last January in this very week was when Halla foundered before, I was so positive that it was only the oats and that the grass had no bearing on her laminitis.

The good news is that I believe this is a far milder case than last year so far. Maybe I caught it earlier, or last year it was oats plus grass and therefore catastrophic. She is quite lame if you think it's her knee, but if it is her hooves, then she's much less painful than she was last year. Last year when the vet used hoof testers she went up in the air, and this time she only reacted a little. She also has thicker soles to start out, and I am hopeful she won't rotate again. I'm going to get her Cloud boots on tonight. She's in the sand pen for awhile next to her usual pasture so she can be close to Amore and Nala. 

The vet gave me Omeprazole because of my worries of ulcers with the Bute. He says like the other vet that he sees some abnormal fat deposits, meaning she has a spinal channel and a tendency toward a crest but her ribs show. Probably that does mean IR and/or Cushing's. Thankfully we already have low NSC hay. Even though I was only feeding a pound of senior, I'm supposed to cut that out too and just feed hay pellets and beet pulp to be safe. 

I was trying to prepare myself for bad news, this is not great news but it's better to be dealing with a chronic condition than to have an acute problem where you have to make a decision right away. Hopefully Halla will get over this soon. 

The vet said that he suspects her usual "gimp" from her knee might be more mechanical than painful, meaning it just doesn't move well enough to avoid a hitch but doesn't actually cause pain. That made me feel better, that maybe she hasn't been having chronic pain and if I can get her over the laminitis she might be happy again for awhile.


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## Hondo

Whew! Yeah, overall, very good news. I was ready to bet the farm it was not laminitis this time of year but I'm not on the coast in Oregon. So that can be managed. A knee going bad quickly, probably not so easily managed.

When you're young, you can often eat anything and everything. As one ages, not so much. I know.

Edit: BTW, do you get updates from the ECIR group? They have an article about a paradigm shift on laminitis.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> BTW, do you get updates from the ECIR group? They have an article about a paradigm shift on laminitis.


I don't get emailed updates but I visit their site often. What is the paradigm shift?

I like the article Dr. Kellon wrote recently about the worries of calories restriction with overweight horses (people worry that cutting back their feed will ruin the digestion or cause weight gain). I sent it to my friend whose horse has developed a crest recently. She is always worried that restricting the hay at all will cause worse insulin resistance. 

Tonight I bought two breakaway halters and grazing muzzles from Schneider's. To me the strap on style seems better since you can ensure a good, comfortable halter fit better than you can adjust the straps on headstall/attached grazing muzzles. Might be wrong, I've never used them so far.









I've been reluctant to use grazing muzzles. Now I am feeling that with Amore having Cushing's, it is playing a dangerous game risking that she will get laminitis too. I will have to see if it is too annoying for her to wear the muzzle, but it seems worse for her to have the crippling pain that Halla has had to go through. I'd like to avoid that for her. For Halla, I know she would rather wear a muzzle and roam freely than be shut up in a dry lot.


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## Hondo

I have not fully digested the article but here is a link to it. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/messa...Understanding+Equine+Laminitis,20,2,0,8146233

Hondo has a bit of a cresty neck, not as bad as it looks in pictures due to his thick Morgan neck and his short standing up butch hair cut on his mane. I bought him a grazing muzzle to cut back on the grass in the summer but did not use it. He would be very angry about that and he knows how to give "those looks". But it still may be something I do in the future.

It will be interesting to see how your horses respond. But no matter, yes, better than standing around in a dry lot alone. Time of day affects the amount of sugar also of course. I keep forgetting when it's high. I believe it's low at night and early morning before photosynthesis kicks in.

I had thoughts of enlarging the tiny little hole in the grazing muzzle but reviews said the horses could get pretty proficient at eating considerable amounts of grass through the tiny hole.

Ok, I just read the article posted, but the real article is contained in the link within the link posted. Very interesting read. Paradigm shifts in understanding equine laminitis - ScienceDirect

A teaser from the article: Paradigm shift 2: Endocrinopathic laminitis predominates in animals presenting for lameness
Endocrinopathic laminitis is now recognised as the most common form of naturally occurring laminitis in horses and ponies presenting primarily with lameness in developed countries, including the USA and Europe


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## gottatrot

Very interesting articles. Thank you for the links.

I am kicking myself so much for things I've obviously missed. Once you learn something you see so clearly, and wonder how you could have been so blind.



> Endocrinopathic laminitis is different from other, less common forms. It has a prolonged, often-missed subclincal phase. Early recognition provides an opportunity for rapid intervention and prevention of severe laminitis.
> https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/messa...Understanding+Equine+Laminitis,20,2,0,8146233


A month ago when I was trimming Halla's hooves, I was thinking about how she was having trouble holding her legs up and I was blaming her bad knee. Probably it did contribute, but now I am wondering if that was the start of her laminitis coming on?

This was huge for me: the Paradigm shifts article said 97% of laminitic cases had high insulin. 97%! Why look for any other cause? If your horse has laminitis blame high insulin and you will almost be guaranteed to be right.

This is Halla's body type, exactly, the classic insulin resistance fat distribution.








She's always fooled me, ribs showing most of the time but fat behind her shoulder, above the eyes, on top of the tail, and a crest and crease down her back. Her crest is tiny, but there is no reason she should have fat there and have her ribs show. You think they are skinny and hard keepers and you keep trying to put weight on them. They have the fat, it's just weirdly distributed.
















I wonder how many thin horses out there are suffering from high insulin.

It always seemed to me it was a matter of keeping the weight down, and for a select few horses that were obese, keeping them off grass. I know that's not true now. The thin horse with insulin resistance has to be kept from eating too much grass - it's the high sugars in the grass that cause the problem as much as grain. 

I'd be careful with Hondo or any horse that has a crest. Don't make excuses and let it get too far. Young horses that are heading that way can be kept completely healthy with good management, or their hooves can suffer damage that will last their entire life.


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## Hondo

RE: and he said he's seen horses with just terrible knees that are still working.

Comment: This makes me wonder if Halla would be ok with light work if her laminitis becomes adequately managed.

RE: I'd be careful with Hondo or any horse that has a crest.

Comment: I've been thinking about this for some time and is the reason I also purchased a grazing muzzle. But I think instead this summer I will just keep him in eating hay during the high sugar production time of day and let him eat his greens at night.

I think it may also be time to have some blood work done or what ever test is used to determine insulin levels. His neck gets so much better in the winter when about 50% of his feed is hay with the other being dead bermuda and other grasses, leaves, and weeds.

He is fairly tough with his barefoot feet in the winter but ouchy in the summer. I have attributed that to a softer more moist terrain that also packs in his hooves in the winter with a more unforgiving hard terrain in the summer. And I'm sure those things have an effect. But now as I type and think about it, and his tendency for a stretchy white/water line, I'm wondering if a little summer time sub clinical laminitis could be rearing it's ugly head.

His capsule is tight as recent x-rays revealed, but still stretchy at the bottom. And I've also blamed part of that on his steadfastly refusal to be tricked into taking the trace minerals that his forage analysis indicates he needs for his feet.

I need to do some reading on endocrinopathic laminitis as I had never seen the term prior to that article.

Interesting that the fructans in the grass do not contribute to laminitis. I need to go back and re-read/study the articles some more as I was sort of getting the idea that grass was not the big bugaboo once thought. But Hondo sure expands his crest on grass it seems.

This horsey deal's got lots and lots of moving parts for certain!


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## Hondo

I'm somewhat confused by things I'm reading. Perhaps you can provide some clarity?

Quote: For many years, grass fructan and “hind-gut acidosis” were considered the primary risk factor for horses grazing pasture who developed laminitis. The ECIR Group believes that this confusion distracts from the most important strategy to prevent insulin-induced laminitis: exercise, limiting intake of simple sugars and starch and, in the case of concurrent Pars Pituitary Intermedia Disease (PPID), treatment with pergolide.

I know that there are three types of sugars but mostly sucrose and fructose. ECIR and other indicate that limiting starches and simple sugars is the only effective food management for laminitis prone horse with exercise also being an important factor. (my riding decreases during the hot summer months...hmmm)

But anyhow, I understand starch, but what are simple sugars? Since fructans have been given a pass, is limiting sucrose what is referred to as limiting simple sugars?

I could/can eventually sort this out, I think, but I'm betting you already have it at hand.

Testing for IR reads as a pretty involved procedure.

Edit: If Halla can be worked/exercised without any real discomfort to her knee, I'm wondering if that could be beneficial to the management of laminitis, once she becomes sound again.

Edit 2: I read somewhere in the past that looking at or feeling the ribs were sort of out in determining the condition of a horse. From the pictures/explanation you posted I think I see why.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I know that there are three types of sugars but mostly sucrose and fructose. ECIR and other indicate that limiting starches and simple sugars is the only effective food management for laminitis prone horse with exercise also being an important factor. (my riding decreases during the hot summer months...hmmm)
> 
> But anyhow, I understand starch, but what are simple sugars? Since fructans have been given a pass, is limiting sucrose what is referred to as limiting simple sugars?


I am also very cautiously thinking about future exercise for Halla. What if all this time she had flare ups of laminitis and I was thinking it was her knee? If I take her off grass and she becomes sound once her hooves heal, then I'll know. How great that would be. Also I am thinking that the lack of exercise she's had since the summer has probably put her more at risk. 

As I understand it, the sucrose, fructose and starch are what convert to glucose in the horse's body. And elevated blood glucose = elevated insulin levels in the insulin resistant horse. 

Normally insulin triggers cells to take in glucose. If the cells are insulin resistant, they do not take in the glucose, and the high circulating glucose levels trigger more and more insulin production. The high insulin is what causes laminitis.

I think the point with saying don't worry about the fructans is that people for a long time were thinking high fructans in the grass created acidic gut and laminitis from that. Which is possible, but a more rare scenario requiring super high fructan levels that rarely occur. They said in one of the articles that our models had a focus on acidic gut triggered laminitis due to the fact that so many of the laminitis studies were on horses in vet hospitals. But for horses that are not ill, they are realizing that almost all of the time it is insulin related. 

Focusing on fructans was making people think about acidic gut rather than simple sugars. Keeping the gut full or buffered does not help whatsoever if you're ignoring the primary condition which is the insulin levels are too high. This was going bing-bing-bing in my mind because we have this problem in ICU also. Until you find the primary condition, you can treat all the symptoms and get nowhere. You must discover the primary thing that is killing someone. 

Example: If a stone is obstructing the ureter and blocking bacteria up in the kidney, you can give hard core antibiotics for the infection and vasopressors to keep the blood pressure up and fluids to help with the fluid shifts from systemic inflammation but the person will still die unless you get that stone out. The temptation is to focus on the immediate problem of low blood pressure or fever or high white blood cell count. 

My vets seem to use the non-fasting insulin test. Last year Halla was normal. But it's not the most accurate. Since I didn't suspect she was insulin resistant, I didn't ask for a more accurate test. The vet pulled blood for another test when he visited, so if her levels are not high I can ask for a more specific test. But on the other hand, it seems so likely that she has insulin resistance that I am not sure spending money for more tests will change what I do. I can't think of any other explanation for serious laminitis two years in a row at the same season, both on and off grain.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Also I am thinking that the lack of exercise she's had since the summer has probably put her more at risk.


I was wondering about that as well. Sitting around a lot is bad in a lot of ways for humans and I'm sure horses as well. Hondo gets way less exercise than he needs. I may have to fire up the scooter to give him more than I'm physically able to.

I've read on the ECIR site that hindgut acidosis just doesn't happen with horses on grass, even when fed quite a bit of oats, but otherwise oats can cause acidosis. But the oats are high in starch so it still causes/acerbates laminitis, it's just that the mechanism is different than thought, or at least that's what I'm getting out of what I've read.

So it sounds like you are saying it is the same with grass fructans? That it doesn't cause hindgut acidosis but does increase glucose/insulin?

I read about the fasting with later doses of Karo syrup with following blood tests done with critical timing but agree that with the pictures you posted of the IR horses, you have pretty well nailed Halla's condition without further testing.

When you're finally galloping down the beach again you can be explaining to Halla that you're doing this for her health and not for your own ecstatic excitement

Edit: Would simple blood sugar self tests as done with diabetic humans have any diagnostic value for horses?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I've read on the ECIR site that hindgut acidosis just doesn't happen with horses on grass, even when fed quite a bit of oats, but otherwise oats can cause acidosis. But the oats are high in starch so it still causes/acerbates laminitis, it's just that the mechanism is different than thought, or at least that's what I'm getting out of what I've read.
> 
> So it sounds like you are saying it is the same with grass fructans? That it doesn't cause hindgut acidosis but does increase glucose/insulin?


That's how I'm understanding it.



Hondo said:


> Edit: Would simple blood sugar self tests as done with diabetic humans have any diagnostic value for horses?


I'm not sure...haven't heard that they have tried it.

Poor Halla was so sore again today. Laminitis is a terrible thing. I think the boots are helping. Her spirits seem good, she is doing her usual squeals at other horses and eating well. Nala and Amore take turns going back up to the shed area to check on her when they are out in the pasture. Horses seem to really care about each other at times and understand when a friend is ill.

Rascal has not been ridden in two weeks. Last week when the weather was good, our hot water heater broke and my free time was taken up going to buy a new one and learning with my DH how to install it. This week we are having storms. I've been avoiding the beach since there are high waves (60 ft out in the ocean) and the beach is narrow and unstable. This picture was taken down the coast.









I met up with Nala's rider and we almost didn't go out. It kept raining off and on, and was very windy. Finally we decided to ride around the big field, for just a short while. My ride was mostly like this:





It wasn't quite the same since Rascal was going in the direction I asked and the speed I asked. But I couldn't control what his legs were doing and they kept riverdancing. We followed Nala around some bushes very slowly, at the speed of a fast walk but his legs were cantering rapidly. And whenever the wind went up his tail his hind end popped up. He kicked a bush that touched him and was a little wound up.

Everything was fine for me to ride and I stayed very relaxed, trying to sit back and make my seat steady which every minute or two would stop the riverdance. 
The only issue was coming down a big hill. He was doing something very fast and four-beat (I was thinking he was trying to be a gaited horse) and we started going down forward, then it drifted so we were lengthwise with the hill, and then a few steps of backward. By the time I got him turned around we were at the bottom. 
I don't really care for spinning and riverdancing down grassy slopes. I wondered if he might lose his footing, but it felt like he was not going to topple over the front so I decided if he slipped I could still leap off the top of him. Anyway, we made it OK.

Well, he is a green TB and I brought him out on a day with 30 mph gusts. Nala was rather wild too, and she's not green. I think both horses needed to get out, to keep up the idea of working for Rascal and also they had excess energy. It might have helped to lunge first, but no one wanted to be out in the storm that long. :|

So we did OK. Hopefully he will just at least know that I am going to boogey along with him so he might as well save his energy and stop. Oddly, other than the several times I gave him a yank when he was kicking the air, we were going along on a loose rein. He was very collected and self contained, but just full of angst and antsyness. Hopefully we can go to the beach again soon and get some better work in.

The horse in the video also looks like a TB. Hmm. I am not sure if Rascal will make it as a beginner horse. Early days.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Last week when the weather was good, our hot water heater broke and my free time was taken up going to buy a new one and learning with my DH how to install it.


Congratulations, fellow DIY'ers!

I lived on the Pacific Coast for many years and well remember those storms. The ocean can be very violent. I could easily have lost my life a few times out there from judgmental errors.

The weather was a bit stormy here yesterday with Dolly and Dragon on alert and acting up running out of the pen, running around and then back in to eat some more hay. Hondo kept looking and then ignoring the antics of the kids as he would go back to eating. Then finally he could stand it no more. Out he went jumping and bucking and kicking both hinds in the air. Wish I could have videoed my normally slow steady Hondo. He's done that before but of course I'm never ready.

What do you think would have happened in the video if the guy had dismounted, did a little petting, fed a treat or two, and attempted to lead the horse through the gate? Another treat and then back and forth. Or was the horse just too excited and amped up for that to help?

Agreed. If I, being a beginner, were to be the rider of Rascal, you would certainly have your work cut out for you and would be far from being done.

He may need a 10 + YO in a more calm breed. It would seem that a young feisty horse would be a good way to end a beginning rider's riding career.


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## Dragoon

Nope, Hondo, i disagree. 
I think the vast majority of horses would have a problem with high winds outdoors. 

My now 23 year old former beginner lesson pony is NOT safe if it is windy. Indoors. Outdoors, you are just asking to die. He would not be able to hold it together as well as the TB in the video. He is a bolter. Yet he is good with the kids if you respect his limits. 

Rascal's intended rider may be a beginner in riding ability, but he can quickly be educated on *when to ride. 
Rascal may provide good rides in favourable conditions. Just like my pony. 


I have to add, i think it's really funny that you think the horse in the video is behaving badly, while I am marvelling at the horse's control of himself and repeated attempts to obey the rider instead of its instincts!


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## Hondo

Dragoon said:


> Nope, Hondo, i disagree.
> 
> 
> I have to add, i think it's really funny that you think the horse in the video is behaving badly, while I am marvelling at the horse's control of himself and repeated attempts to obey the rider instead of its instincts!


Not sure what I said to make you think that I thought the horse in the video was misbehaving but just as you I was really impressed with the horse's straining to do as requested even though the urge to do otherwise was obviously very strong. I personally do not think there is such a thing as a horse misbehaving within my own personal mental construct of misbehavior.

I was just wondering, as there have been some situations where Hondo was excited and my dismounting and being in front of him seemed to calm him. And so wondered if that would have happened with the horse in the video without suggesting it would have.

Hondo once became agitated over the sudden appearance of a herd of white cows that he had never seen before and dismounting in that situation did nothing to calm him at all. But under most other circumstances has.


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## Hondo

After re-watching the video, I'll add that I was also impressed with what looked to me to be the skill, and soft persistence of the rider.

I also noticed the lady in the background saying, "This is the way he acts up every time". So in this case, it was not just a wind problem but rather a longer term persistent problem. And that would "suggest" to me that they may have likely tried doing ground work to get him out the gate and resorted to a more experienced rider trying to ride him out the gate, which he finally succeeded in.

Be interesting to know more of the background to the video.


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## bsms

Seemed to me the horse was being asked to do more than he was capable of giving. So...ask for less until it IS within his reach. IMHO.

Bandit grew up in very open country with lots of wind. It doesn't bother him much. Bothers me more just because I don't think it is fun to ride in a 30 mph wind. Trooper and Cowboy both tense up a lot more with wind - just less experience with it, I think.

Bandit's biggest problem when I got him was that I was asking him to go in an environment that scared him:








​ 
Like most humans, I looked around and thought, "Totally peaceful!" Bandit was in sensory overload, with strange smells, strange sights, strange rider and a hundred things in that picture he couldn't comprehend - including paved road underneath his feet. To this day, a human environment he hasn't spent time in - say 1.5 miles from here - can tie him in knots. I'd guess 90% of our spooks have come on paved road. With Mia, it was probably 75% - and maybe 5% of our riding is on paved road!


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## Hondo

Quote: Glucose readings were obtained stall-side with a hand-held glucometer, much like one used by human diabetics. 

Quote:Bertin concluded that this test correlated well with the conventional insulin-sensitivity test, it was repeatable, and he observed no adverse side effects. He noted, “This two-step insulin-response test had the same accuracy, sensitivity, and specificity as the complete conventional insulin-sensitivity test.”

New Insulin Resistance Test Method for Horses (AAEP 2011) | TheHorse.com

@gottatrot Perhaps you know about this test already? It's from back in 2011. Know anything about it?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Quote: Glucose readings were obtained stall-side with a hand-held glucometer, much like one used by human diabetics.
> New Insulin Resistance Test Method for Horses (AAEP 2011) | TheHorse.com


That is very interesting. I'll ask my vet about it. I have a glucometer, in case the vet doesn't we could probably use mine. Bought it for "fun" which my family did not enjoy as much when I wanted to test everyone after Thanksgiving dinner. No diabetics discovered. It would make me nervous to give a horse insulin and just watch for symptoms?! 

Yes, the waves have been crazy. I read on FB today that someone took their horse in the water today and "went down, they didn't do so well." I wonder what that means? Maybe I'll hear about it at work. I can't fathom what about the ocean looked inviting this week. I am very leery of it on the best days. Someone already was swept out this week and died. 

Interesting comments about the TB in the video.
I agree that he was overfaced, and so was Rascal. I think the rider did a good job quietly waiting for the horse to be able to do what he asked. Rascal, like the other TB was doing his best to listen, I believe. Every time he humped up and I talked to him, he stopped it. But he wanted to just go bucking and hopping around the field.

In my case, walking Rascal would not have produced a calmer horse, and he's been in the same fields calmly so I know it was primarily the weather in his case. The cats were chasing each other around wildly when I got home. Overnight the storm was worse, so I imagine the animals sensed the pressure changes.
Perhaps they worry about being out away from home when the storm hits.

My belief is that horses can get used to wind, and in our climate it's rather important that they do so. But "used to" is a loose term, and I doubt everyone would have felt comfortable riding Amore out in the wind even though I eventually insisted she go out in it once I was a more secure rider. The barn owner where we used to board lived up on a hill overlooking the property. She said she'd watch the Arabs' field on windy days to see them blowing around in the wind like butterflies. 

I don't mind wind because it either gusts and spooks a horse, or else it is sustained and they bear it eventually. Hail is what makes me nervous, because you don't know how heavy it is going to get and how a horse is going to react to the stinging bees sensation all over the body. The last time we were out in the hail it was Nala and Halla, and both are hot and wild but both are oddly steady in temperament. They get excited and hot, but it's all predictable, about excitement and they adapt very well to the environment. So neither one liked the hail, but they understood it and bore it well. 

Amore is not one I would like to be on in bad hail. She'd likely panic and lose her mind. I only remember once being in lighter hail with Amore. We were a block or two away from the barn, and an intermediate rider was on her. The hail started, the horses spooked forward, and I said, "Run for the barn!" We let them canter, slid to a stop on the grass, and I was off and running before Halla was stopped, grabbing Amore's bridle and pulling her up. "Jump off!" Then we ran the horses into the barn, and Amore immediately calmed once under cover. Halla was not panicky, but when we ran she seemed to think it was a good idea.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Bought it for "fun" which my family did not enjoy as much when I wanted to test everyone after Thanksgiving dinner. No diabetics discovered.


I got a visual on that one. Funny. It would make a nice skit. SNL could do a crack up job.

I have always sort of thought the wind made horses nervous because they could not listen for predators as well. For some reason, noise bothers me. I have never liked to be around waterfalls for that reason. May be buried in some long lost DNA somewhere.

I'll be interested to learn what you find out from your vet. May be that it turned out to be not as good as the article suggested, but if it is that would be a nice way to proactively test Hondo or any suspect horse.


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## gottatrot

Serious stress going on here.

Halla has been so painful that we have decided not to walk her from her night pen to the daytime one. Staying in one spot had not seemed an option to me, until it wasn't optional and then we worked it out. 

The choice was to leave Halla alone in her run attached to the main barn down the hill which would stress her terribly, or to leave Amore down there with her, which would stress Amore too much. There was only one pen available at night up above, it has a grass field, and that would mean Amore went down below by herself. There are other horses in the barn at night, but she wouldn't be able to see them.

When it came down to Halla being too sore to walk that far, we figured out that we could put the horse who goes in her pen at night into the one with the grass, and double up by putting Amore in with Halla. It's a space about the size of four box stalls. Not ideal, but it seems to be working OK temporarily.

The good thing is that it is all sand, which is the best for laminitis.
In the day time Amore is going out into the pasture with Nala, and Halla is staying in this small pen next to their pasture where she can see them and visit over the fence. Amore is probably getting a little too much hay, but I don't think it will harm her for a few days. I took away the beet pulp she was getting her vitamins in and she's just getting a handful with her pill and arthritis supplement. 

I've started icing the hooves, and Halla has her Cloud boots on. When I take them off for a little while she is on the sand. Still giving Bute. Yesterday she was able to hold her hooves up long enough for me to do a little trimming (she was unfortunately due at the time she got laminitis) and bevel the toe walls. Last time she got laminitis it was just after a trim, and I wondered if somehow it had triggered something. However, this time her hooves were at their longest stage so at least I know it was not anything I did with the trim the last time.

My DH has been very helpful because I struggle so much seeing Halla in all this pain. Yesterday morning she had a trench in the sand where she had apparently struggled to get up. She was doing a lot of shifting her weight between her feet. When I went home (this was after a night shift) I only slept two hours then woke up with nightmares and was distressed asking how I should know when it was too much pain and too much suffering.
The acute phase of laminitis is so bad to see in person.

I would like to know how things are going to go, what I should do, and then just follow a plan. DH says so would everyone with cancer, with other illnesses, but this is not a broken arm. You don't just put a cast on and know the pain will get better each day.
So it's one day at a time, never knowing if things will go worse or better. It's possible Halla might get so bad I have to put her down. It's also possible we will be able to get her managed perfectly and I could ride her again. Between those two extremes are a lot of other possibilities. 

Yesterday afternoon when I went back again, Halla was able to pick her hooves up so I could trim, stood in her ice bucket eating away and moved around a little on her own. There was no trench even though I could see she had laid down. She fussed at Amore like normal when I brought Amore in. It's kind of a roller coaster.

I had thought I was going to call the vet if Halla looked bad, but she looked better. So things are one day at a time right now. I'd like to wait before taking the Xrays since I know I have the toes relieved, I have the padded boots on, and last time she rotated more after the Xrays so we never were able to see the worst of it. Maybe next week, if everything starts doing better.


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## Hondo

I don't know what to say. These animals just come to mean so much to us. Everyone knows all that can be done is being done. On some level, Halla may also. Hoping for a positive outcome to include those future rides.


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## egrogan

+1 to @Hondo's reply. Sincerely hoping things turn around.


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## knightrider

So sorry you are having to go through this.


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## ChasingDreams

I'm so sorry you are going through this, laminitis is a huge fear of mine... I have a feeling my guy is going to be prone. We had one instance where I thought he might be having a mild lamininitic reaction while he had his abscess. I've read that they can get that way during an injury from shifting weight off the bad leg (disrupting blood flow in the "good" leg) Also, when fighting infection. It can basically be an inflammatory response to any number of ailments... though more commonly the dietary triggers. 

Anyway, the first day when he was refusing to put weight on his foot I kept him in to try to keep him from straining too much. But, while he was in the swelling kept getting worse, and soon all four fetlocks were looking kind of stocked up...not just the abscessed hoof. On the second day he started to do the "lean" thing that says laminitis when I brought him out of his stall onto the hard concrete. The abscess was in his hind foot, so leaning off his front feet was alarming. I brought him outside and hand walked him for a little to make sure he was ok to move around, and then put him out by himself (in the snow) in the paddock adjacent to the pasture. Within a few hours the swelling was gone in the unaffected legs and he did not lean again after that...but it was scary when it happened.

I think having snow on the ground was a blessing, his feet were essentially on ice constantly. Now I'm afraid what will happen if he develops it in the spring or summer when I don't have that advantage. He's an easy keeper, and more than a cup or two of his grain/beetpulp mix gets him ornery. This will be his first spring on pasture with me :/ I'm trying to decide how I will tackle it when the grass starts actively growing again... after reading about Halla, I'm tempted to go buy a grazing muzzle...


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## horseluvr2524

So sorry to hear that Halla has regressed. Take comfort in knowing that you are doing everything in your power for her, and I'm sure she knows it too. Whatever the outcome, you can remember everything Halla has taught you, and continue to give her gratitude as you have with your warm, generous, and careful TLC. I'm sure that happier days are ahead for you and Halla both. We will always be here for you. Hugs!

Sending prayers for you, Halla, and your family during this difficult time.


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## gottatrot

Thank you everyone for the kind wishes and thoughts.

The vet is coming Monday to do Xrays of Halla's hooves and see how things are going. We had a good phone conversation yesterday. The vet was at the farm several days ago so was able to see Halla in person. She looked up the Cushing's test we did last year and it was normal, but she said high normal so she suspects it might be positive now. The insulin test the other vet drew last week was high. 
She said she is not real optimistic because of how severe the pain is with nothing very bad that triggered the laminitis. Even though the grass did grow a bit, the other sensitive horses at the barn are not having issues. So a purely metabolic cause is very difficult, apparently, and she says they often just can't get a handle on it. 

Today when I went to the barn Halla was lying down on her side. This was actually the first time since I've owned her that I've seen her lying down to rest. She will roll and get up normally, but not stay down. Her hooves felt warm. I can't tell if there is a depression around the coronary or not. After a few minutes, she got up and it didn't seem too difficult. I gave her Bute and iced her hooves, after that she walked slowly over to the water trough about ten feet away. Then back to eat some hay. I'm glad she seems to be able to get off her feet if she needs a break. It's one day at a time.

To cheer myself up, I took Rascal out. Several days ago, Nala's rider and Rascal's rider went out for a ride. I'd lunged Rascal first, since I had a little time and Nala's rider was hoping that would make things smoother for her BF. 

Rascal is such a rascal. Here's how he lunged: If I said walk, he trotted. If I said trot, he'd canter or walk. If I said canter, he'd walk or trot. He seriously knows what I am asking, and you can see him think for a second, then choose something different. Of course then I bring him in closer and make him do the gait I asked for. After he actually picked up the gait I asked for several times, I let him rest. Even just staying in a gait for more than ten seconds, he starts craning his head off in some other direction so I have to startle his attention back onto me.
On the ride, right off the bat Rascal's rider let him get too close to Nala, she kicked out and he jumped, knocking off his rider. His rider got back on, they walked some little trails around the property, and finished well.

Today the rain started coming down almost the moment after I saddled Rascal. We rode through the fields fine toward the beach, but once we got off the property it started raining even harder. There was no way Rascal was going to walk away from home into the downpour. He's not stupid. I tried several tricks to get him going but ended up getting off and leading. He is such an expressively emotional horse. He pretty much glared at me at first while politely walking along, although shuffling his hooves reluctantly at times. 

Here's one thing I've never experienced before: a horse that bucks when you're leading him. I was walking along, then heard "_Squeee_!" Turned my head and saw him landing from a big buck that ended with him stepping along again politely next to me. Didn't even pause. By the time I gave him a yank on the reins and said "Stop it!" it was well over and he was looking at me like I was punishing him for walking nicely. A minute later, a half strangled pig grunt sound, then a hind leg flashing out behind. 

We went down onto the beach, just getting drenched and miserable. However, I made Rascal walk nicely (after a couple bucks down the dune) a short distance on the beach, then I got back on and had a docile walk home. He does not like getting wet very much at all. I told him, "We do not have a covered arena. Deal with it."


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## Hondo

Not that long ago I would have seriously questioned the notion that a horse could glare. I mean, with the rigid face, how on earth could they actually glare?

Well, Hondo taught me differently. Hondo can, and when he feels it's needed, does glare big time!

Rascal sounds very playful.


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## ChasingDreams

I'm picturing Rascal standing at the brink of the beach with a picket sign between his teeth  "Heck No! I won't go!" 

Horses are funny creatures. It's pouring down rain and they will happily stand three feet outside of whatever shelter you've generously provided... but then get appalled if you ask them to do something in the rain. Like, "how dare you?? don't you see it's raining!!!?" 🤣🤣


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## gottatrot

The vet had an emergency surgery yesterday so was unable to make it out to see Halla. Today she came and did Halla's hoof xrays.

On Sunday, Halla looked very sore and depressed in the morning. In the afternoon, the stall cleaner sent me a pic of her down under her feeder, saying she hadn't been moving much, just lying on her side. I updated the vet, cried a bit, then my sister called and was telling me about how I'd given Halla such a good life and imagine how many horses would love to gallop down the beach like she did, and that got me really crying. I decided I was not in good shape to go to work, so called in sick.

Then went to the barn in the evening and Halla was up looking perky and walking around a bit. So I told the vet it seemed like Tuesday would be OK for our appointment.

Yesterday and today Halla was eating well, moving around a little and I just was not sure about things. Part of me wanted to think that somehow her hooves might be just very painful but somehow everything was holding together inside. 

The xrays told the story. Her coffin bones have rotated very badly and the sole underneath is very thin. The decisions were difficult after that. The vet said she could test for Cushing's again, we could start Pergolide, and hope to get Halla comfortable enough after a couple weeks to where she could tolerate the pain level. Other than that, there was nothing else we could manage. 
But she also said that this bad damage is done. Nothing will change it.

This is how it is: I could try to get the current inflammation down. If Halla did not rotate more, there is a possibility that she could be sound enough to walk around the pasture with just a little soreness after a long period of time and new hoof growth. But the chances are very high that since something very slight precipitated this, it will happen again. The state her hooves are in now will mean relief would come in inches of growth if nothing else happens. And now her coffin bones are ready to go through the sole, so that would mean another episode would be even worse and even more painful. 

The vet said we should take a couple days to think about everything (my DH was along since this was a very serious visit). I think there will only be one kind thing to do. I don't see a real quality of life ahead for Halla, it seems more likely she would just have a lot more pain and suffering. The decision isn't emergent, she's getting a lot of Bute and not obviously suffering every moment, but I won't take too long to decide just in case. Seeing her walk ten feet makes you feel bad.

I've been sleeping a lot, kind of depressed which is normal I know. Death is part of life too. Still, if anyone feels like saying "It would be right to put her down," I'd like to hear it. It feels right, logic says it's right, but the decision is still extremely hard to make.


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## bsms

Yes, it would be OK. 

Some folks once wanted to buy Mia. They were even newer to horses than me, had no decent place to put her & would never have stayed on when things went wrong. No way!

They bought a couple of purebred somethings, both of whom went lame. One was so bad that he could barely stand. Limped slowly and severely going to get water or hay, then would lie down for most of the day. The trainer told them to put him down. The vet told them to put him down. The farrier told them there was no hope and to put him down. So...for the next 6 months, the horse suffered. Because they didn't want to give up!

It made me SOOOO glad I refused to sell them Mia!

Obviously, that is not Halla. Bandit keeps hurting himself. Every time I find him holding a foot in the air, I wonder if he'll recover. So far, he has always just cut a leg or damaged his frog. I'm not nearly as fond of him as I was of Mia. He's a better horse in many ways, and a character in his own right, but Mia was emotionally linked to me in a special way. I don't think I stopped tearing up at times over Mia until I saw the pictures of her out riding with her two foals tagging along side her. THEN I knew she was better off THERE than HERE.

What am I saying? I don't know. Rambling I guess. I'd feel awful - probably will feel awful someday - when Bandit manages to hurt himself too badly. Not a tenth as much as it would have hurt to walk out and see Mia badly injured. Trooper and Cowboy are below Bandit on the fondness scale, but it will still hurt when something happens to them.

You'll do the right thing. I wish there was a way to make it easier, but there sure as heck isn't. It is the price of having a close friend.


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## Dragoon

I keep thinking of how you found Halla, years ago. Starving and wasting away in a dirt lot, with no real hope. She was waiting to die, her and her TB friend. 

You came along and gave her back her health, security, and the joy of running and a good life. Many years of fun and love, love from her stable herd of Amore and you. It will hurt her herd to lose her, but it will hurt her more to linger on without hope. A sad cripple is not who proud Halla is. Through you, I feel I've gotten to know her a bit, and she's given me a lot to think about on my own equine journey. 
Thank you Halla. 

This sucks, I'm so sorry...


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## egrogan

Sigh. I read the update twice. I thought about whether I could reply, as who am I to have an opinion on something like from my seat behind the computer screen? In the abstract, I think it would be ok for you to make the decision to let her stop suffering. If I was looking at Izzy and confronting the same question, I would be in the same position you are. I know you'll make the call for your friend when you know the time is right. So very sorry.


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## Hondo

What @Dragoon said. This is so hard.


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## Knave

Yes, of course it is okay. I think at times we regret either way. We look back and wonder if we could have done something different, or we look back and wish we would have ended it sooner. 

I think it is best if we pray about it, then do whatever we set our minds to. I know with myself I can feel a lot better about my decisions then. 

I am so sorry this is happening. Think of the good life he’s had. I wish I knew something more to say.


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## ChasingDreams

I'm so sorry, I felt like crying myself just reading your update...
I know how special she is to you, and everyone her story has touched through her time with you. 

I can relate, I know how hard it is to be in a decision such as this. My first dog as an adult was a beautiful golden retriever named Cali, that I bought and raised from a pup. I trained her easily, and she was a perfect companion and friend. I loved her dearly. The summer after she turned 6, she developed a large, fast-growing tumor on her underside. After consulting with the vet, we opted to have it surgically removed and tested for cancer after. It tested positive. After the first surgery, we were just hoping and praying that the tumor being gone was the end of it. A few weeks later, she developed an infection at the incision site and got very ill. We brought her back in a opted for a second surgery, to remove the infection and dead tissue.

After that, she got better for a few weeks. Then, she started getting ill again. Couldn't eat, couldn't drink, her eyes just squinting with pain. Brought her back to the vet and had our worst fears realized...it was cancer again. This time it had spread over her internal organs. They gave us the option to try chemo, but said the prognosis was not good...that even with treatment she would be very challenged to overcome it. It likely would just be prolonging the inevitable and cause her to be even more ill. After seeing her suffer through two surgeries already, I didn't want to put her through anymore pain. Even if there was a small chance it could help, the thought of putting her through all of that pain and having it likely fail anyway...was too much to stomach. So, at the young age of 6, I put her down.

I was there for her, I held her in my arms and cried hysterically into her fur. I pet her and told her how much I loved her and what a good girl she was. I cried the whole way home and for many days after. Even now, looking at her pictures makes me tear up.

It hurt tremendously, and I do sometimes feel the guilt of the "what if" scenario. But, the logical side of me knows that I did the right thing. The vet said I did the right thing. Everyone around me said I did the right thing. In all reality, I did.

They say it's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. This is especially true with our beloved animal companions. But it doesn't make it hurt any less...

Just know that we all understand, and stand behind you regardless of what you decide. It's not an easy place to be.
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## Fimargue

I'm really sorry you are going through this. If it was my baby, I would probably come to the decision of letting them go. If I were to lose my ability to move, I would want to let myself go. I would not want to keep them suffering in life that I would not want for myself either. I would not want them to be in pain.

My heart goes out to you in this difficult time. You have given her your everything, and you can comfort yourself with the thought that you gave her a happy life when she wasting away and certain she wouldn't have one.


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## Hondo

ChasingDreams said:


> They say it's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. This is especially true with our beloved animal companions. But it doesn't make it hurt any less...


For me, this bears repeating.


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## knightrider

Awww, this is so hard. I have had to make the decision to put some of my animals down over the years and you always second guess yourself. My beloved rescue Paso Fino Mar Sereno had EPM and we "cured" it with Oraquin 10. It was a miracle. I was so thrilled. I got to ride him for 2 more years and it was as if it never happened. Then it came back, worse than ever, and instead of doing another round of Oraquin 10, I opted to have him put down . . . because I knew I might save him for another six months (or not), but it would just keep coming back. I still ache when I think of him. I will always wonder if I should have done the second treatment. It was a hard decision, and no matter what you decide, you wonder if you did the right thing.

Something that helped me tremendously at the time was something someone wrote on Horsetopia. They said horses don't look forward to seeing their grandchildren graduate. They don't have aspirations. They are not disappointed when it is time to go. They live one day at a time. Halla had a wonderful life with you and she won't mind when she leaves this earth.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this pain.


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## Hondo

Just got back from a two hour hay run and was thinking about this.

I could never offer advice on what to do in this or any similar situation. But I can, do, and will offer my support for whatever decision is ultimately made. That's all I feel qualified and able to do.


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## gottatrot

Such great and kind words from everyone, thank you. You don't know how much it means to me. 
To hear from horse people is very helpful, because other people give me advice but they don't understand completely what laminitis and founder are, and they don't understand what horses mean to us. 

My horse friends down the coast were ready to come up and be with me and talk today, but I didn't think they needed to come all the way up here in person.

It might sound strange, but the barn owner was telling me stories about horses that had been put down in crisis situations over the years and it didn't seem insensitive but actually made me feel better. I appreciate the stories from @ChasingDreams and @knightrider. 

The barn owner was puzzled, remembering how they had put down a couple different horses where they walked them all the way across the property about a half mile. So she wondered why were they being put down if they could walk that far? She grew up on the property and has had horses and livestock there since she was a child, so these things happened years ago.

It seems there are two ways to go for horses most of the time. One is the sudden emergency and the other is the illness/doing poorly that requires a tough decision. Either way is very hard. We all have or will go through it, and it's so good of you all to lend me some support. Hopefully I can return the favor someday.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, thanks for the story of your horse with EPM. That is something I'm really thinking about. 
It's very similar to founder, because there is a wide variety of how bad horses are and how they react to it. But there is treatment, so a lot of people would say why wouldn't you treat it? 

That's what I'm struggling with, the sites like ECIR and The Laminitis Site and other great information that helped me out last year with Halla. They all say that laminitis doesn't have to be a death sentence, and horses are surviving, and don't give up, do the trim and the feed or get medicine going and your horse will be all right. 
Then they show pictures of horses with their coffin bones coming out of the soles and that horse still recovered. And people are riding some of these horses.

I know that if I could pin this down to something like I thought I could last year, I would probably try to recover Halla again. I'm looking at the outside of Halla's hooves and they look so nice. The outsides are smooth and flat without rings or ripples, and you can see how I kept them trimmed perfectly all last year. Yet inside there is no connection. How can we treat this? 

I think that's my biggest issue with keeping going. It's like the EPM, the uncertainty of when it will strike again and knowing it is likely to be much worse even than this time, and thinking of my horse suffering through that. It would be different if I could see a factor to change, that would make me feel that there was a margin of safety. But I don't have an obese horse I can diet, her hay has already been low NSC, and she's been out for a few hours daily a little grass that no other horses in the barn are having issues with in the middle of winter. Her hooves have been trimmed and she's barefoot. If the grass was the trigger, then how could I even turn her out with a grazing muzzle when there is more grass? Which means she'll always have to be separated in a dry lot. 

Just working through everything in my mind, again. I think it's one thing to say horses can recover and will recover, and another to think about a particular horse, one full of fire and zest that lives for her herd and her place in it. I think it comes down to what a person could do or what a person should do.

I'm someone who had my 12 year old Dalmatian go through major bladder surgery when he was full of impacted stones, even though he had some arthritis, cateracts and hearing loss. It was the right decision. He recovered fast and lived three more years, two of which were great quality. 
I also spent several thousand on my Papillon at age 3 when Amore kicked him in the head and fractured his skull, because the vets thought he could have a good life (he's ten now, has been perfectly normal after a couple months recovery). I had to put him in a box on the bed and tie him to my wrist for a couple weeks so he couldn't wander and hit his head in the night. 

So I'm willing to go to great lengths, if it is the right decision for the animal. For Halla, I believe I am deciding it is not.


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## weeedlady

@gottatrot I am sorry you are facing this difficult decision. Keeping you in my prayers.


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## Dragoon

I see what you're saying, Gottatrot. The personality of the animal must be considered. It is not a cut and dry decision about recovery. 

I only know two horses well. 
The TB mare would likely be happy with life in a stall if she had to. Food and comfort is enough for her. She hates wind, rain, and cold. Doesn't play much with others. Not overly curious. Very unenthused about exercise. It's been below zero up here in Canada most the past two months. She has been so content in her stall!
My pony gelding has a dignity about him, and very independant. My gut feeling is that he would spurn life in a dirt pen and being coddled. He doesn't do confinement well. Not sure what I'd decide for him, because I love him so much I don't want to imagine him not ever being in my life. He's made dreams I didn't even know I had come true. He is 23 this year. ..

The real test of love is letting them go, sadly...it's the most unselfish thing to do, that's why its so hard. We by nature are all selfish, and want to keep our loves close.


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## horseluvr2524

I am so sorry. There are no words that can truly help, I know. Halla will understand and appreciate your decision, she knows you only want the best for her. When her time comes _(whenever that time is, now or later on)_, please remember that while she moves on from the long and blissful years you have given her, she is making room for you to love and help another creature, one who may so desperately need it just as she did all those years ago when you found her. That love and care you have given her will stay with her, just as the love she has for you will always stay with you. Her spirit will always be with you, galloping down the beach, tossing her wild mane in the glistening sun and salty spray. I feel so blessed to have met Halla, and you and Amore as well.

I hope you don't mind me posting a scripture (feel free to have it removed if you wish).

From Ecclesiastes 3 (NIV):
_"There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace...

... All have the same breath... All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return."_

My prayers are with you. Halla, may you always run free. :gallop:


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## gottatrot

Thank you, @horseluvr2524, that was so beautiful.


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## gottatrot

A little update on Halla:

She has been at a stable pain level with 4 grams of Bute daily. I've read and pondered everything possible and concluded that it will be best to put her down. She has tested positive for Cushing's, and this is apparently why the sudden onset and difficult to control laminitis and founder. I've read in several places that horses with Cushing's are the most confounding and difficult to treat. 

In my experience, a good trim and diet change will make growing in a new, tight hoof capsule seem fairly easy after laminitis. Those are horses with a more simple metabolic problem. 

Why Halla has deteriorated is due to a more complicated internal disease. Many people say that for horses with Cushing's the laminitis will almost always recur and it is often the reason they have to be put down. Cushing's can look very different in different horses, I'm learning. For a lot of horses it is discovered after catastrophic laminitis. Others seem to have a lot of outward signs like a long coat but the progress is slow and not as hard on their bodies.

I've considered a lot of things: a drastic trim, special shoes, seeing if the Prascend will work (the vet says it takes a month or two to change the hormones), putting on a complete muzzle so Halla could go out with her herd (considered unethical, too frustrating for horses), whether she might be happy enough if she only limped a little with constant Equioxx or similar medication...for me the biggest thing is the risk. All of these things have the potential to work but for many months if she has any recurrence because one thing doesn't work perfectly, it will put her into a more terribly painful state than she is in now, because she has no attachment and her coffin bones are rotated so far. Both are more than ten degrees, the worst at least 15 degrees. 

How is it that I have two horses with Cushing's? Arabs are a more common breed for it, I understand. 
My DH gets very attached to our animals also, and he has needed more time to feel comfortable with this decision. I've been trying to let him take that time. Yet I know what we have been doing is risky, if the rotation worsens any more the coffin bones could go through the sole and I know with Halla the Bute level is not sustainable. Last night when we went out she was disinterested in her hay, so I am sure the ulcers are starting. So the time is running out, and my DH saw that she is getting unhappy.
I emailed the vet and she was supportive of everything, so we will find a day after the weekend where she can come, as long as Halla seems to cope well enough.

I am remembering great stories about Halla. 
One day I was riding with a teen girl who often came to ride Amore. I'd given her lessons, and she did very well staying with Amore. Halla was so relaxed and mellow that day. After we'd ridden about three miles, we had gone for several canters on the mountain logging roads and finally let the horses run up the steep, twisting trail about a quarter mile long that we called the Knob. It was a steep little hill that dead-ended off one of the logging roads, and had a great view from the top all the way to the rivers and towns far below. 

At the top, I decided Halla was feeling so mellow that my teen friend could give riding her a try. I'd let her get on Halla in the arena several times before. So we swapped horses, and I helped her onto Halla before hopping on Amore. Halla walked for several steps, then just took off trotting away down that super steep hill. Halla was never a smooth trotter on her best day, and rivaled some of the roughest, bumpiest horses I've been on. Down this steep grade, I could see it was absolutely punishing. The teen wasn't bouncing as much as she was jackhammering down the mountain. I shouted encouraging words about checking Halla back, keeping her weight in the stirrups, and other nonsense but all the while I could see Halla's tail swinging gaily back and forth and her hips ricocheting up and down as she powered her way down the hill. The teen's helmet was thrashing around. I started hollering things about trying not to bite her tongue off. 

Meanwhile, Amore, the superb downhill horse was sashaying smoothly as she sprang along behind Halla, making my ride easy. At the bottom, I pulled up Amore and jumped off, in order to help the shaken rider off her horse. She was quite relieved at the prospect of getting back on Amore. When I got on, Halla leaped into a trot immediately, ready to take off as happily as she had for the last rider, eager for more of the fun slamming-the-rider-around. When I actually did check her back, I could feel her disappointment, and she tried once more before settling into her prior mellow mood for the several miles home.


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## weeedlady

Love the story @gottatrot I'm sure you have many more memories to treasure.

I'm glad you have been able to come to a decision and I will be praying for strenght, peace and comfort in the coming days.


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## Dragoon

Halla: So you think I'm easy, do you? Heh heh heh ....

Teen: WORST. RIDE. EVER.

You'll get through this OK, because its an act of love...I'm glad you're thinking of the good times, and thanks for sharing them... take care...


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## phantomhorse13

Just now catching up on your journal and I am simply heartbroken for you. I do hope you can find some peace in knowing you have done everything possible for her.

The final act of love is taking their pain and making it our own.

Godspeed Halla.



p.s. for anybody who tries to tell you about a horse who recovered from laminitis, etc.. there is a world of difference between a horse who experienced some form of laminitis and one who has severe _rotation_, even without the Cushings.


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## egrogan

I will be thinking of you, your husband, and Halla this week.

And I look forward to reading more of your Halla memories whenever you want to share them!


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## knightrider

This will be such a hard and bad week. My heart will be with you. Please share more fun memories of Halla.


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## gottatrot

Halla's pain has improved over the weekend and I dropped her Bute to 2 grams (1 twice a day). She was apparently getting ulcers, but I've been giving her TUMS twice a day and her appetite is back. She has been walking fairly easily around her pen, and not letting Amore get hay at times (per her usual self). It didn't look like she laid down today at all, and the weather was pretty good.

Long story short, DH is not comfortable making the decision to put her down right now. He wonders what the rush is, and would like to feel more certain that she won't have a good quality of life. 
The vet believes she will deteriorate in a week or two, and then my DH will feel more certain. Halla is not obviously depressed or having a difficult time right now, and it seems it will be important to not have the DH feeling like I rushed to put down one of our animals, while he was still deciding. So I am OK with this.

The vet doesn't think starting Prascend will help since it may take more time to work than Halla has left. But I have read about several horses online that seemed to respond quickly to Prascend, so who knows? I guess if she somehow improved then I would want her to have started the treatment to lessen the danger of a relapse. It also will help DH feel we did everything we could. 
I am going to post her xrays to the hoof section to see if anyone has opinions about trying a trim for her.
===================================

Finally got Rascal out again for a ride, and we went out with Nala down to the beach. First we lunged Rascal a bit since Nala's rider had bought a western saddle for her BF to use since Rascal keeps chucking him off. He asked if she'd be mad at her if he wanted to ride in a western saddle, LOL. It was a nice, used Circle Y, seemed to fit OK and he lunged around fine. Nala's rider hopped on for a few turns and it didn't seem to bother him.

The great news is that Rascal is definitely improving. We went a ways down the beach, he went up and down the big dune without a problem and no bucking. We did walk, trot and canter and really moved out and he did great. He did try bucking the first several times at the canter, but he finally was just going in and out of it without bucking, and I told him how wonderful he was. 

He spooked only once, when a car came up behind us, but all the other stuff he's seen before he didn't spook at. He also got upset once when I tried to steer him toward Nala but he thought I was turning back away from home (I think he was getting tired). So he skedaddled sideways and lurched up and down a bit which probably would have knocked off the BF, but then he straightened back out and went nicely again.

It felt so great to be on a couple TBs just moving down the beach. Nala hadn't been out in quite while, so she really needed the ride. Rascal of course could get me off (never say never), but even his bucking and goofy stuff are not that challenging compared to some so I am feeling quite comfortable. I really love his trot when he is moving out, and his canter is too high and round but it will get better in time. It's gratifying that even though we haven't had time and good weather to get him out consistently, he does keep improving.


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## horseluvr2524

Glad to hear Halla is doing a bit better, even if only for a short time. Who knows what will happen in two weeks. I agree that the prognosis isn't good, but at least you both have a little time to come to terms with the decision and can both have peace with it.

It's good that you are out riding and having fun. Keep on doing that. Enjoy Rascal the "wascally wabbit" :wink:


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## Hondo

Is therapeutic shoeing by a specialist in founder recovery even an option in Halla's case? Good to hear about her asserting herself. I expect Amore is probably glad also.

Scratch that. Just read up on therapeutic shoeing and it doesn't sound very good.


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## phantomhorse13

If your DH is still having issues with the decision, then I feel like you def need to start the Prascend as otherwise he may use that as another reason to prolong the process. While I am glad that Halla is feeling somewhat better, I do not envy you the coming days..

I am glad you are getting saddle time with Rascal. I am sure it does your soul a world of good.


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## gottatrot

We did a trim today, which has made Halla more sore. Not sure if she will get worse after this. Everything I've read says that if you want to try with a horse, the trim is not optional.








She has her padded boots on now. 
I measured the length of her sole, then figured out what percentage of the length of her sole based on the xray would come off in order to create this breakover about halfway between the coffin bone and end of the hoof. Then I rockered that away from the bottom of the hoof.
I also took some heel off the right front and a tiny bit off the left.
This is about what I did except the rocker is more like a 45 degree angle:








She was four weeks out from her last trim when she started with the laminitis, so her toe was long. By the time we got xrays it had been 7 weeks, since she was too sore to hold her hooves up.
Despite the fact that her hooves looked OK on the outside, inside was a different story. I guess that is what Cushing's can do.

We had made a little progress by last summer, after her previous much less serious rotation. Despite all my best trimming efforts, we now are in bad shape.


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## Hondo

Don't know if this is still valid, but I read that wedges are sometimes used to ease pain on founder. If I understood correctly, the sinking P3 puts a strain on the deep flexor tendon and is a source of much if not most of the pain. If this is true, I'm wondering if wedges in the hoof boots would help.

This seems backwards to me in a way as it would seem to put more pressure on the toe against the sole. But I'm reading the deep flexor tendon being the source of pain. 

But maybe her laminae has not turned loose in the heel area.

Hope you don't mind, I'm just trying to throw stuff out there. Thinking that anything that relieves pain is going to result in her moving more which gets her circulation going which helps healing.

Maybe a slight wedge pad could be tried with Halla reporting on the results? Or maybe not?


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## gottatrot

The Cloud boots are raised in the back, based on that idea. For a little while I thought she was more comfortable with the boots on, then she seemed more comfortable in the sand barefoot. Either one of those are recommended for sole support.








I don't really know...the vet subscribes to the theory that the pull of the DDFT causes most of the rotation. Other sources I've read say that ignores the effect of the tendon on the front of the coffin bone, which pulls the other way. Some believe they see no less rotation or pain with elevated heels, but maybe see less with lowered heels. 

One thing about laminitis is that there's no real agreement about hoof treatment since there are good results and bad results regardless of if you raise the heel believing that relieves the DDFT, or if you lower the heel believing that lowers the coffin bone angle. 

I read many articles looking for a specific shoe or wedge that would help relieve pain, but they all seem to help more with regrowth process rather than comfort. Wooden shoes seem the most helpful for regrowth but I haven't been sure if we would get that far. 

Everyone seems to agree that the toe needs to come off/back. Everyone also agrees that the insulin levels (especially based on latest research) cause the laminae to disconnect and tear away the hoof wall from the coffin bone. 

Something very great is my barn owner is very supportive. She's ready to help with a tractor for burial any day, or to wait for weeks or more. She's allowed me to move Amore up the hill to stay with Halla at night, and to move Buddy to another pen. She's let me move sand and feeders and do whatever I need to help Halla. I have been at other barns where all of this would have been either unavailable or very difficult to do. I'm very grateful for all of this.


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## Hondo

Well at least there is agreement on bringing the toe back. Makes sense since after the rotation it's sticking out there like a big lever.

I read one site that "seemed" to be knowledgeable. (don't they all) This article recommended both lowering the heels and using wedges with the explanation that lowering the heel buttresses brought the frog into a greater weight bearing role than it would be in normal circumstances and then the wedge was used to relieve the DFT tension.

I also read about using frog support for the same reason as lowering the heels. And all seem to agree that what ever works to get the horse moving more is the important thing to do.

If she can't pull through, the effort was valiant. That barn owner is head and shoulders above what I've heard about some. That is so great.


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## EstrellaandJericho

No advice because I have no experience in this but I just wanted to say you are being a really fabulous horse mom for helping her and trying to relieve her pain. When it's time to say goodbye you'll know, she will tell you. Bless you.


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## gottatrot

Humor is always helpful:

19555808 182476159168474 7143959145140453376 n

Here's what's been going on:

First, did a trim on Amore yesterday and that made me feel good. I guess it just makes me see how a horse can have Cushing's, and not every one has to have such perfect management or they will crash. 
She goes out on grass and yet has a very tight white line, thick soles, and her hooves seem healthy. Just giving her a pill seems to keep her stable.
It makes me wonder if there are separate types of Cushing's we don't understand yet, some showing different signs and requiring a little different management. Halla definitely has no long coat, and instead has almost shed out.

This is day 5 of giving Halla Prascend. She stayed more sore after the radical trim on Tuesday. We added deep sand to her pen. "More sore" for her meant awkward gait, not walking unless necessary, standing with feet shifting frequently. She was still not lying down very often.

She went off her feed a day ago and we talked about putting her down yesterday, DH is now on board with it so we've been talking more about what day rather than "if." He saw that if her pain did not improve quickly, we had no choice. But he felt better because we tried the Cushing's med for several days, and the trim in case relieving the toe wall leverage might help.

Today was a day off work for me, I went early to see if Halla was still off her feed and looking sore, and then planned to call the vet. We started her on ulcer medication yesterday. 

Of course, today I walk in the pen and she sees the syringe of yucky meds in my hand and takes off walking away from me. She was walking out and gave me this sassy look, then turned and let me give the meds. She hasn't felt like walking away in three weeks. 
So then she went over to the gate by the feed room and was nickering and tossing her head impatiently until I got her hay, then was tearing into it. Meanwhile, she had a normal stance, and was not shifting much, and picked up all her hooves for me right away.

Does anyone want to trade horses with me? I'm tired of mine. She has too much will to live, and always seems to rally just at the last second in order to make the decisions more difficult. It really is one day at a time here. Thankfully we are 5 minutes away so can go twice a day, and I am just working a little extra to pay for her treatments. Having quite a flu season and some unreliable staff, so many extra shifts available. So the only dilemma really is Halla's well being, and what is best to do and when.


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## egrogan

No trading for Halla, I think she is with exactly the person she needs :grin:


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## phantomhorse13

Just wondering how things are going.

Hoping no news is good news..


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## gottatrot

Thanks, @phantomhorse13, it's still tricky.

Halla has been eating well, not lying down very much, walking more, looking pretty contented. So it still has not been clear each day that she needs to be put down right away.
I was reading a lot online about clog type shoes and how they can relieve pain in some horses, and was interested in this style:









Yesterday I experimented to see if raising her heel might help her feel better. So I used duct tape on pads I cut to raise her heel up and basically "float" her toe so it was off the ground. When I walked her, she walked off taking big steps and not limping. Since this was not a stable system, I cut pads to fit inside her Cloud boots and did the same basic thing, except I couldn't quite get her toe completely off the bottom, so I put a small pad underneath.
She still was walking a lot better than before.

So now I am wondering if she were to go permanently into some type of shoe like a heart bar with a wedge pad, if she might not have pain, especially after her hooves grow out. She's down to 1 gram of Bute, which can be a maintenance dose per the vet.
Still very unsure about things.

Meanwhile, I had to rub Irish Spring soap over all the wooden surfaces in the pen where the horses are staying at night, since Amore has been chewing it all up. I haven't had her in a pen with wooden posts for awhile (she was in metal before) so forgot how much of a beaver she has always been.


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## gottatrot

About the Rascal:

His owner rode him the day before yesterday, down to and onto the beach for the first time. Apparently, his owner really liked his new western saddle, and when I checked Rascal yesterday he didn't seem sore at all from it. The report was that he went down the dune with no problem, trotted and even cantered a little with minimal bucking, and his owner did not fall off. He seems to have been happy with the ride. Nala's rider said he was trying to get Rascal to go down into the water, but I haven't worked with Rascal on that yet so she discouraged that, thankfully. They can really jump and spook at first until they get used to the movement of the waves. 

Yesterday we took Nala and Rascal out, and had a great ride. It was very sunny which means cold for here, and the wind was brisk. It was in the low 40s. 

My work has been very busy with a full ICU for weeks and people who insist on getting sicker and causing us to agonize over treatment decisions before they get better. So much lies on the nurse's shoulders - when to notify the doctor, what meds to give and when. Between that and Halla's situation, it has been a bit stressful. After work I slept four hours, and then I was very ready for some stress relief.

Let me tell you, nothing felt better than getting out with Nala and Rascal, and we just let those two horses go at a good pace down the beach. The most difficult part with Arabs and TBs is when they don't yet have enough training to be trusted to respond well, so you have to keep them slower than their mental pace. Once you are communicating well, any nervousness or excitement can be burned off by letting the lid off the pot, and this makes for a relaxing time (in my book). Fast and relaxed versus slow and tense.

Rascal's working trot is very nice, and he moves out and keeps up a nice rhythm. It would work well for endurance, and he has that natural work ethic that many TBs have. Without any pushing, he just picks it ups and goes until you tell him to stop. He is also getting much better at the canter, although it is still a lot of work for him, especially in deeper sand. We went down about 2.5 miles with a strong tailwind, and the horses did much better with that than when we turned around and it was blasting our faces. 

I experimented with letting him out for a few strides at a time so he can start getting ready mentally for galloping. My strategy is to build the excitement level slowly once the horse gets to working well, so you don't have that insane adrenaline rush that comes from galloping a horse suddenly. 

Into the headwind, Rascal did buck a few times. Most of the time he just does one, and I canter him forward out of it, but he started really getting into it in the deep sand and on the third buck it started getting bigger and more enthusiastic so I pulled his head up. 

He's starting to really tolerate Nala taking different directions and transitioning into different speeds, even getting farther ahead of us or behind. He's also moving very straight but learning that my steering helps him avoid obstacles. 
There was a lot of traffic and dogs, which I could feel was causing my horse up to about a level 3/10 of apprehension when we passed by cars and things. A big truck was coming up behind as Nala suddenly took off, and I felt him get up to about a level 6, so I called out for Nala's rider to slow down, she turned back and immediately he was calmer again.

On the way back, just after the bucking, Nala shot forward into the wind and Rascal leaped into a gallop. On stride three (each bigger than the last), I shouted, "Oops, I lost him!" so Nala's rider would hopefully pull up. The funny thing was, as soon as I yelled, Rascal's ear twitched back and he slowed into a canter. This was something that would never have happened with Halla in a million years. Once excited, we always had a long negotiation to get back to a normal speed.

By the time we got home, I was feeling quite contented about the ride. Rascal is turning into the kind of horse I really enjoy, and it felt to me like we were developing some trust and communication, and he felt as though he enjoyed the ride and was starting to have some fun going out. He feels sound and powerful so far, and we turned around the first time he breathed out in a snort. So hopefully we can keep building on this.


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## Hondo

That's great news! Mark one up for the DFT pain theorist. What about the Cloud insert that is wedge shaped for that purpose? I know you said the Cloud boot was already wedge shaped some but they have that insert to wedge it more. Not a cheap wedge but......

I'm sure you've looked at it but here it is again Easyboot Cloud Insert Pad | EasyCare Inc.

Irish Spring wouldn't work for Roman. I had to put it where he couldn't get to it.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> What about the Cloud insert that is wedge shaped for that purpose? I know you said the Cloud boot was already wedge shaped some but they have that insert to wedge it more. Not a cheap wedge but......


I'm trying to find another pad that is more durable. That insert came with the boots, but it compresses down to 1/4 inch thickness after a day or so. So it's only wedge shaped for a short while. 

I'm on the fence, reading many sites that say heel elevation is not the way to go. I'm wondering if just padding the back half of the hoof without necessarily raising it might be helpful. More experimentation needed. Tonight when I led her around in her small pen she was "cruising" as DH said. So she definitely feels far more comfortable. 
Big dilemma since we are leaving on a several week long trip at the end of March, and if she is going to stabilize I need some kind of boot, pad or shoe solution so I can know she will stay comfortable. Otherwise I will have to figure something else out, if she still needs frequent care and watching. Either get her to a friend I trust or bring them to her. 



Hondo said:


> Irish Spring wouldn't work for Roman. I had to put it where he couldn't get to it.


What? Did he eat the Irish Spring? That is crazy.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> What? Did he eat the Irish Spring? That is crazy.


No but he was working on the package. He's about past his chewing on everything stage. I gave him one boot of a pair that needed tossing and he chewed the entire top off in about 4 weeks. Mistakenly left my jeans on the sofa one night and he chewed about 6 inches off my belt. But he is such a good dog and I'm so happy with him.

Ok. Figured you had tried the pads but had to be certain.

March is not far away. So I see why you are looking at the clogs or some type of 24 hour shoeing comfort solution.

It's bad enough to have such a problem but it is then compounded by so many experts disagreeing on how to manage. But it seems you have hit on an approach that is getting her to move and all the experts seem to agree that is fundamental to healing as you well know for yourself and hospital patients.

If I were nearby I'd be happy to donate some of my retirement time. The BO is great but can't ask them to do too much. Hope you can find some help.


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## egrogan

@*gottatrot* - this article caught my eye this morning, made me think of you as it specifically references this "dry cryotherapy" treatment as potentially appropriate for horses with metabolically related laminitis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5761284/pdf/vetreco-2017-000244.pdf

This was the plain English summary of the article in a horse publication: https://www.paulickreport.com/horse...old-using-cryotherapy-avoid-laminitis-horses/


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## gottatrot

Thanks @egrogan, great info.

Here's how we are feeling this morning:


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## Hondo

Having a bit of Oregon Coast weather here at the moment so I've been playing on the computer and decided to educate myself about clogs you mentioned.

I am very excited to have discovered that EDSS has a composite clog plus attachments and they are not expensive at all.

Even better, there is an hour long presentation for application and installation on a laminitic horse with cushings by none other than Gene Ovnicek himself!

The before and after results are dramatic. Gene Ovnicek is the only person I would leave my horse with and walk away if needed. He spends his winters about 70 miles from me. I actually ran into him at a hardware once.

Maybe you've already checked it out but if not, here it is: EDSS Steward Clog - Brown


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## gottatrot

Things took a turn with Halla a couple days ago. I've been watching for abscessing, knowing it can be very common after founder. Her soles started getting deep grooves of separation around the edges, and her worst hoof started coming up around the sides, the sole was starting to loosen and come off. I knew if that came off, the small amount of protection over the coffin bone would be gone. I looked at pictures of exposed coffin bones online, and we decided we would not risk that happening.

So we made the appointment to put her down today.

It was a beautiful and sunny day here, and my day off, the vet was available, and so was the man who runs the tractor at the farm. 

We went out several hours early (DH and I) and Halla had a very good day. With some extra Bute, she was eager to get out of her pen for the first time and walk around eating grass. We gave her apples and carrots, and brushed her, and the sunshine made her coat look glossy and bright. 

People from the barn wandered through, there was a new puppy to cheer us up, hugs all around and stories told. One of the horse owners had just put down her very old dog that afternoon, so that was a very long hug. Tears flowed.

On the other hand, we could see how different Halla was. She enjoyed herself very much, but when we turned her loose after being pent up for weeks she did not even try to trot, just walked slowly. Even with her horrible knee injuries and previous founder episode she always tried to trot to see if she could. Also she did not roll, or pay much attention to Amore or Nala, but grazed on her own, which she would never have done normally. 
So I believe she knew that her place in the herd was changing and perhaps horses detach knowing the herd would naturally move on without them if they couldn't keep up. We also knew that the damage she was doing with the grass, treats and movement would make her pain much worse tomorrow, if we somehow changed our minds.

We hugged Halla and she leaned on us and enjoyed the attention. When it came time to walk over to where the vet would be, she did not want to go. It wasn't that she knew anything, but rather she thought we were going to put her back into her little pen. Which confirmed to me that she would never have been happy living like that long term, even if we could have stabilized her hooves somehow.

The vet sedated her and then gave the euthanasia, and she went down easy. We helped move her a few feet into the side of the hill and watched her buried. Rebel's owner brought daffodils, which we put on top of the hill. She is lying next to Dexter and Simba, two old horses we've seen pass since I began boarding at the farm, and the flowers were blooming over Simba's grave where his owner planted them a couple years ago. 

We brought Nala and Amore over to see Halla's body and sniff her, and then they both moved on with their lives as horses often do. The vet said horses deal well with death, but not with a horse going suddenly missing, so she recommended that we show them that Halla was dead so they didn't get upset and look for her tonight. They went in their pens and began eating as if that did help them. 

We will continue to cry and grieve, of course, but I think we are coping well. It is very helpful to have Amore to dote on, and our other pets as well. 

I suppose I could feel bitter about losing my horse too soon. But I understand how blessed I was to have owned such a wonderful horse for nine years. Every day was a priceless gift.


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## Knave

Oh I’m sorry that you had such a hard day. I’m sure it was the right decision though.


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## gottatrot

​


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## tinyliny

A good death is never a given, even for a good life. Some are lucky both ways.


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## egrogan

Oh @gottatrot, tears flowing here for you. Goodbye sweet Halla. Run free.


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## phantomhorse13

The final act of love is taking their pain and making it our own.

Godspeed Halla.

I hope you take comfort in your memories and will continue to share them with us as you can.

:hug:


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## ChasingDreams

I’m so sorry for your loss, @phantomhorse13 worded my own sentiments perfectly. 

Goodbye wild Halla, I hope you are now galloping freely with a mist at your hooves and the sun on your face [emoji170]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## knightrider

So sorry for your loss. What a sad time. I expect Halla is running free now over a heavenly hill. I wish you a restful heart. I am wiping away the tears. It hurts so much to lose one.


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## Alder

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Your writing brought her to life for me, you let us know her.


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## Hondo

I don't get damp too easily but this did the trick......


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## Fimargue

My heart goes out to you and tears flow for your loss. You did the right decision, but I'm truly sorry for having to let her go.

Race with the wind beautiful Valhalla, as you shall never be held back.


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## weeedlady

@gottatrot I am so sorry for your loss


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## gottatrot

Such wonderful words, and I thank you all.

I am not terribly sad today, just feeling full of fond memories. 

How odd it was that so many times I felt as though Halla was just short of being too much for me, but yet she always stayed just below that threshold. So many times I thought, "If she gets any hotter or more explosive, I am going to fly off." But somehow she would stay in that moment just barely manageable, and so we continued on our way.

For the last few years, it was strange how I could take her out with a beginner on an easy trail ride, and I would know that we could still manage the ride and keep that other person safe on their horse. Many experiences with Halla taught me that when she needed to be manageable, she would be. And when she didn't need to be manageable, she would be just manageable enough. 

Of course, there were those rare times when something unexpected would happen, and we'd lose it. But it was a very rare thing for me to come off Valhalla, even when she was green as grass. She never was trying to get me off. Coming off her was due to something spooking her violently, or her tripping. She never was scooting out from under me or dropping a shoulder or twisting away from my seat (aka Amore).

So many things made her the most fun horse to ride. When I only had Amore, if someone else wanted to ride my horse so I could ride another bigger, faster horse, I was always happy about that. After I had Halla, my horse was always my first pick, because she was the most fun to ride.

I remember the first time I galloped on Halla. She was only 15 hands. I've galloped on big horses and fast horses and powerful horses. Pony sized horses with legs that moved staccato fast. Big, round, lurching movers and flat, smooth ones. Halla had the most wonderful gallop I've ridden. Before her knee injuries, she was very fast because she could stretch out so far. She could almost keep up with the big Thoroughbreds. But what made her gallop special was how she used her entire body to gallop. 
She didn't gallop like this:









She galloped like this:








I would see her hooves coming up in front of us, and her whole body would feel like it was going to burst apart with the effort she gave. She loved galloping, and put her whole heart and soul into it.

The first time I galloped on Halla, I thought I was going to be flung off into the bushes. Her muscles seemed to rotate around underneath me, almost like being on a merry-go-round in the wrong spot where you feel like you're going to get thrown off rather than held in by the centrifugal forces. But the forces did hold me on, and it was like sitting on a washing machine on top of a motorcycle. Mad-crazy-legs churning up the ground.

All her life, in order to gallop all you had to do was think about galloping and you'd be doing it. To gallop was her default mode, her happy place. All the rest of the time spent riding was basically telling her it wasn't time to gallop yet. The one 25 mile limited distance ride we did, I spent most of 25 miles telling her not to gallop. Most days I just had to remind her gently every minute or so that it wasn't time to gallop yet. That day, in a new place and very exciting, I had to spend all the energy I had in my body telling her she couldn't gallop today. 

The next day, I remember standing on my concrete porch pad which was about four inches high, and thinking it was a long ways down and that it would hurt very much to take the step. Every part of me felt like it had been run over by a cement truck.
I also remember that ride as being one of the most beautiful rides I've ever had. Views of mount Rainier, green woods, sunshine, flowers. Gorgeous trails.


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## gottatrot

Saw a funny picture on FB today - these moose were bottle fed and used for deliveries by their owner. There is a mark on the photo but from what I've read, photos this old are not really copyrightable. So the name is to give credit to the person who shared it.









Good barn day today. Nala and Amore seem to be doing fine, and I put some beautiful flowers on Halla's grave. We had a light dusting of snow last night, so patches were still on the ground and highlighting the mountains surrounding the area. 

We took Nala and Rascal out for a ride. Surprisingly, even though the temperature was in the high 30s there was barely any wind on the beach, and it was quite comfortable with a jacket on.

I've been reading about some of Rascal's possible body issues and am feeling convinced he has some sacroiliac issues from his track career. Quite common from what I've learned. I believe this is probably why he kicks up and bucks, he might just be tight or sore in the hind. 
Before the ride, I stretched his hind legs up and forward, and also up and back. He had a lot of difficulty stretching back, worse on the right. For some reason, from what I've read, the SI issues are often worse on the right side with OTTBs. 

On the ride, Rascal picked up the first several canters with no bucking. This made me feel like the stretching helped. He didn't actually buck until we turned around toward home and there was a bit of wind in our faces. He was a bit persistent in throwing in the bucks, so we went up into the deeper sand and I made him canter and keep cantering, which was so much work that he had to focus his energy and there was no more bucking.

At the top of the dune, Honey the herding dog raced off toward the huge elk herd sitting about 100 yards away from where we came over the top. She got them all running off, and we worried she might get kicked but she quickly raced back to us. Then they were stampeding all over in the posh, gated neighborhood just off the beach, we could see them leaping around in the distance. 
This gave us some excited horses for a little while, and I told Rascal he shouldn't try to prance like an Arab because he was not that graceful and it just looked silly.

I keep getting more impressed about how he is coming along, and I was thinking about how the easiest way to train a horse is to just ride and ride them.
Looking at his body back at the barn, I think it has already changed quite a bit. Nala's rider says he looks like a "real horse" now.
Here he is when we went to look at him the first time:









And today after the ride:








I think his topline looks a lot stronger, what do you think?


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## Fimargue

Yes, a lot stronger, the backend as well. Good job!

*"and I was thinking about how the easiest way to train a horse is to just ride and ride them."*
I so agree with this.

*"For some reason, from what I've read, the SI issues are often worse on the right side with OTTBs."*
Could that be because they race them only in one direction at the track? Can't remember what direction it is.

Good that you are stretching him. It does a big change even within a short period of time.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> For some reason, from what I've read, the SI issues are often worse on the right side with OTTBs.


This is because they race counter clockwise.

In theory, racehorses are on their left lead going around turns and their right lead on the straights. If you think about the footfall patterns of a canter/gallop, that means they are striking off with the outside hind leg around the turn - the right. That is a lot of right-sided stress as the torque force is greater in a turn than in a straight.

I would assume the opposite is true of horses in the UK and other places they race clockwise, but haven't been lucky enough to work with any off-track horses from those places.


Love seeing the physical changes in Rascal - keep up the good work!


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## knightrider

*"and I was thinking about how the easiest way to train a horse is to just ride and ride them."*
I so agree with this.

I also so agree with this. In fact, I so agree with so many of the interesting thoughts you post in your journal. I really look forward to reading each post.


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## Zexious

My first thought was the direction they race, as well.

I wanted to say, firstly, that I am so, so sorry for your loss, gottatrot. Words cannot convey the grief of losing a best friend. 

I'm glad to hear you've got plenty to keep you busy and that, on the whole, your ride was good. Nala is looking great; I can definitely see an improvement <3


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## gottatrot

Thanks for that info, @phantomhorse13. I found this picture that seems to back it up:









On a sad note, Halla's friend Rebel is getting ready to join her on Monday. I told her owner I will be there for support. Rebel has been in very bad shape for a long time, and going downhill for a couple of years. My decision with Halla has helped her make this difficult decision herself.









I'm having some serious issues with Rascal. I've been looking at photos of beautiful Arabian mares to try to help. 








The problem is, he is here and we are becoming friends already.

I can't help thinking about how he is not a very good match for his owner. And I strongly suspect that his owner would rather find himself a horse that was less challenging. Or he might rather borrow him on a rare occasion rather than riding very often.

The ownership thing is very casual, because no one really wanted to claim Rascal, but someone had to in order to be somewhat official with the barn owner. So "officially" Nala's rider owns him. But she has said he is her BF's horse because she would like him to ride with her. And at first she tried to get me to say he was mine, but I told her I could not possibly commit to a horse when I had two already, with both being older, health-compromised ones. So I have been helping with costs since I've been the one riding him.

I am telling myself strongly that when I get back from my trip in April I will start looking at supremely athletic Arabian mares. Very beautiful ones.
Then Rascal looks at me and he just looks like a horse who wants someone to cherish him.

So today I did a few things to sort of prove to myself that I wouldn't want him. First, I thought about how he and Nala pin their ears at each other and sometimes kick so we have to tie them separated. I decided to take Amore and Rascal down to the lower barn together and tie them if they seemed to get along. That would certainly be something to avoid, two horses that didn't get along.

When I tied Amore and Rascal together they snuggled up close and neither one made a sound. They looked at each other amiably while I messed around and brushed them. Then I took them for a walk, thinking they probably would not lead together well or give me trouble. Rascal followed on Amore's tail like she was his little old mother. Then she followed him, and he didn't make a single face or lift a hoof, even when she sniffed his rump.

Rascal seemed to enjoy the "adventure" walk with Amore, it was like old times with Halla.

For interest's sake, I tried Halla's Renegade Viper boots on Rascal and they fit perfectly. He has very small hooves, but they are steep and have a lot of concavity. So I would already have boots to ride him on gravel if I took him somewhere. And two saddles that fit him.

The biggest fault I find with his conformation is that his front legs are not perfectly straight. It has taken me awhile to figure out the exact reason, but it looks like the knees rotate slightly to the outside. This makes him toe out. He walks with his front legs coming close to each other but not plaiting. This is less pronounced now and I think his hooves are getting balanced better and perhaps his chest is a bit wider. I need to evaluate him more at faster gaits, but we haven't seen him interfere. 
The trick is that his small hooves help keep him from interfering, even if he steps close. 

I've read that if horses have knees that are offset at all, they will often show signs of stress by popping splints. Especially if used on the track. So I felt his legs again tonight, but they are very clean, his joints are not large and his knees are flat. 

Why would I want a homely-ish gelding that may or may not hold up to hard work? But then I tell myself it could be temporary, I could just try him for awhile and then find him another home if it didn't work out...
He just happens to be a very good size for me. And I think he is starting to like me...He's a pretty color too...Something about him feels good, like we might need each other.

Anyone want to talk some sense into me?


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Something about him feels good, like we might need each other.
> 
> Anyone want to talk some sense into me?


Umm.. duh. 

:cowboy:


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## Hondo

Oh I saw all this coming ages and ages ago. Affection has been splattered all over in every post about Rascal.


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## Zexious

Interesting picture to start; I wonder if any articles have been written on the subject.

Poor Rebel. It's really been a tough couple weeks, but it's so kind of you to be there for your friend in this difficult time. Making decisions for our beloved animals is never easy.

The heart wants what the heart wants, and it isn't always logical. Take some time and really consider your options <3 No immediate decisions need to be made, right?


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## gottatrot

*******************************************

I have to say that the active horse lives and conversations on the forum along with the horses in my life that continue living and having needs (scratch my neck, put thrush buster on my frogs, take my blanket off, give me a treat) have been helping me so very much. 
As my DH says, take time to feel very sad and cry, don't repress anything. It comes and goes. But whenever that isn't crowding in, the best thing is to enjoy life and horses and keep healing.

My very good friend has told me in the past that her favorite horses have been the ones that she didn't choose. She says that she has decided the best horses are the ones that just show up in your life, and those are the ones that are meant to be.


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## egrogan

I can play devils advocate :wink:

What would change if you decided to “technically own” him? How would that be different from what you do with him now, which seems to give you the best of both worlds-you work with him as you want, but if your dreamy cover girl pops up later this year, you could add her to the mix as well...


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## Dragoon

Hmmm, but you've already HAD the athletic Arabian mare. Twice. 

Time for a different breed, different gender, so that you aren't trying to subconsciously replace what you've lost. 

There aren't any perfect horses, Halla sure wasn't, yet she became your favorite to ride. 

And Amore has already made her choice.


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## bsms

For what very little it is worth:

I often debate what to do with Bandit. I'm weeks away from turning 60, and my wife and I would like to do more traveling - which is tough to do when you need to find someone to take care of your horses. Dogs too, but it is easier to find someone to take care of the dogs.

Cowboy is probably around 20+, and Trooper is 19. They'll have a home with us, but neither is bothered if not ridden regularly, and both ride the exact same after a month as after a day. I doubt it would break either of their hearts if they spent the rest of their lives in the corral with regular food and water.

Part of me thinks I should sell Bandit (10 this year) to someone who would do a lot of trail riding. We could still ride Trooper & Cowboy at times, but there would be no pressure to ride NOW.

But...Bandit is an odd horse. I've been working sunrise to sunset for a while now & my son and wife have been doing the horse care. And even just feeding, watering and cleaning the corrals...all their stories are about Bandit. Once in a while, Cowboy. But mostly about Bandit's antics, just living in the corral.

He has ample faults. He is way too narrow, and came here accustomed to using his feet within inches of each other. He probably has damage in his legs due to the very hard riding he once did, although he doesn't show any outward signs. He plans to live forever, and every ride involves his high awareness of what is going on around him and what HE thinks he needs to do to stay alive. He likes people well enough, but he isn't 1/10th as outwardly affectionate as Mia was.

But...he has lots of personality, and I really thinks he needs a rider who gives him freedom and the chance to make some of the decisions.

I haven't posted much on HF for a while. I feel alienated from much of the riding world. So much - at least on the Internet - seems focused on competition, or showing, and the right look, and 'how do I get my horse to obey my every whim' style of riding. And the "Get a bigger whip" school of training is still far too common where I live.

I chose Mia. I wanted her the moment I met her. I think she needed me, and oddly enough, I needed to learn a lot of things she taught me. I think she is happier now, but when we met...she needed someone like me, even if I knew nothing about riding or horses.

Bandit? If I had met him before I got him, I'd never have chosen him. Not at all. He's not as ugly as he used to be, but no one would EVER describe him as a sweetheart. I'd love another Arabian mare.

But he came into my life. And he is an interesting horse in his own right. Nothing like the emotional attachment I had with Mia. 

"_She says that she has decided the best horses are the ones that just show up in your life, and those are the ones that are meant to be._"

The Baptist in me sometimes thinks God puts horses in my life. Heck, I didn't even WANT horses! I was strongly opposed to getting horses. Absolutely not! But Mia came into my life at a time I really needed her and she needed me. She moved on almost by accident - a farrier we used two times really liked her, offered a trade - and the trade has worked out very well for Mia, and arguably for me as well. And Bandit? He is NOT the horse I would have chosen, but my pastor might argue someone else made the choice for me.

That doesn't mean I might not sell him this summer. Maybe there are seasons in our lives, and particular horses meet a particular season. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone. Don't know if Bandit & I are 'in season', so to speak. But I also believe many of the 'accidents of life' are not accidents at all.

















​


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## Zexious

Some really great points, @bsms ; many times the horse we want is not the horse we need at the time.


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## horseluvr2524

I'm sorry about Halla. You gave her a great life, and a happy, peaceful end. That's more than anyone could ask for. She will always be with you. My heart and prayers are with you and your family.

As for Rascal, why don't you lease him? Then you can help with costs of ownership and be his primary rider, but you won't have any obligation. There's no reason you have to jump into ownership of another horse right away. Nala's rider can remain the owner, you become the leaser. I think giving yourself a few months to figure out what you really want to do is not a bad idea.

FWIW, I agree that maybe its time to take on a different breed, than the same breed same gender again. Rascal is plenty forward for you, is a nice easy going guy, and seems to be growing on you quickly.

Lease him, and make decisions later.


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## gottatrot

You all are good for me, full of great advice.

I think the lease is a good idea (which Rascal's owners are very happy with, since they also are trying to figure out if he is a good fit), and there is no need for me to make any decisions right away. It will only be good for Rascal to have more riding and training, and it might become obvious if he will hold up to harder riding or not. Otherwise I will not be the right person for him, regardless. And that always must be the primary goal, to find the best home for a horse.

There is a horse at my barn I have mentioned before, he was bought about a year ago for a second riding horse and pack horse by a couple at the barn. When they brought him home I begrudgingly pointed out that his hooves were terrible and also his tongue had been badly injured. He is a very sweet horse and had the right personality for packing but kept coming up lame. They tried corrective farrier work and shoeing. He's only about 8 and the vet thought his hooves would straighten out, the xrays are good. But he is lame more than he is sound. Basically, his body is crooked from years of crooked hooves, so he gets sore often and is not fit for work. Anyway, my point is that his owners have found him a good home with an older couple who don't ride very much, but have one lonely gelding who needs a pasture buddy. 

We had a sad day again at the barn, since Rebel was put to sleep. DH and I went to help with the burial, so her owner wouldn't have to do it. I was very sad for her owner, since this was her first horse she'd had for sixteen years, since she was a teen. But I was happy for Rebel since she is a very stoic horse but has been in bad shape for awhile. Her hooves today were the worst I have ever seen on a horse in person, and it amazed me she was up and walking on them. She was laying down for hours every day, so I was glad her owner had the courage to make this decision for her.


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## gottatrot

I'm sure being my friend was something regretted by horse and human alike today. 

The rain was steady and unrelenting. I don't think there was even a break for five minutes all day. The horses were huddling in their sheds. I rousted out Amore and Rascal so I could take them down to the lower barn area for awhile. 

For the past few days I've been taking Rascal out for short rides or walks, and working on a positive association with handling. He acts like he's been treated like a machine. When you go get him you can see he thinks there's not going to be anything in it for him.

That's starting to change, because we're doing different things each day and I am interspersing small amounts of "no fun" with things that are interesting and enjoyable. I base this on how the horses seem, rather than my opinion. Fun is hunting for grass near the goat pen, visiting the hay storage in the lower barn to take bites of alfalfa, walking with a friend to new areas. No fun is standing around tied, trying on tack, or going in the round pen in the pouring rain. 

But I'm trying to make all the things routine that Rascal is not used to, such as tagging along behind me on a lead wherever I might go, through gates and with and around other horses. And getting saddled, unsaddled, standing for mounting over and over, bridled, hooves picked over and over. All of these things made him stand tensely, hesitate or react, which to me is a sign of not being handled routinely enough. After awhile, horses I'm around get completely immune to me scampering around and putting things off and on their bodies, lifting various body parts, my hands going everywhere poking and prodding (nicely). 

A friend who used to ride Amore when she was a teen is now in her early 20s and messaged me saying she was doing some college work in town. She is a serious runner, so was asking about good runs. So I got ahold of my sister and after both their work and classes, dragged them out for a three mile run on the trails in the muddy woods and pouring down rain. Lots of steep hills, but it felt great to be out there. We would have gone farther but darkness caught us.

I'm friends on FB with a nice gal who used to post on the forum last year but people kept saying she was making up her stories about riding and how she was doing so she left. I was pleased to see she just bought the lovely, young OTTB she's been riding for the past months, and has continued her foray (descent? LOL) into the horse world. 

If @bsms sells Bandit, I would be tempted to ask if he thought he'd be a good horse to ride on the coast. He is a beautiful mover. It's not that tough to ship a horse over a couple states. But I realize that Bandit could probably be a good fit for many people, and my inclination is to find a horse that really needs me in particular. 

Something interesting happened along those lines, as I think about Rascal and other options, which is that I discovered there is an Arabian rescue in Oregon that was started three years ago. I sent a message last night to them about my experience with Arabs and how I might be able to give a good home to one that is difficult to place due to temperament.
Home

There is one named Sheba in the rehab section that has more pictures on FB. It says she was unhandled at 13 and they plan to keep her for a long time to make her adoptable because she is very reactive. Her pedigree was posted and it's interesting. Amore's dam's sire was a horse named *Marhaba, a Holland Nat'l champ and her sire's sire was *Bask, a famous sire. Sheba's sire's sire was *Marhaba, and her sire's grandsire was *Bask. No wonder they are having trouble with her, LOL.
Anyway, she is interesting to me, looks rather athletic. Same age Halla was when I got her.


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## bsms

"_If bsms sells Bandit, I would be tempted to ask if he thought he'd be a good horse to ride on the coast. He is a beautiful mover. It's not that tough to ship a horse over a couple states. But I realize that Bandit could probably be a good fit for many people, and my inclination is to find a horse that really needs me in particular._" - @gottatrot

For Bandit's sake, I'd give him to you free and pay the shipping costs. But I also think you are right. Bandit could adapt to almost anyone who would ride him regularly and treat him with some fairness. LOTS of people could own him and have a fun, enjoyable horse. I think the racing he did was abusive, in the sense of being much harder on his body than he should have been subjected to...but he undoubtedly LIKED his owner/rider.

The road you've traveled has prepared you for horses more like Mia. Or, even further in that direction, Halla. Horses who NEED someone whose understanding can unlock the world for them. Someone who can teach them riding can be a release, not a pressure.

"_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" - Tom Roberts​ 
Much of the horse world seems to focus on "This will profit you not." And with many horses - Bandit too, largely - that is OK. They don't really insist on much. "Long-suffering" is an old term for patience, as in the King James (1611) translation "Charity suffereth long" for 'Love is patient...'. But many horses are, by breeding, long-suffering. They can get by in a world where no one bothers to say, or even consider, "_This will profit you._"

I think any horse can benefit when a rider regularly asks himself, "_What is in this for the horse? Why - or HOW - might he be convinced that doing this is HIS idea?_" 

Ray Hunt wrote: 

"_Let your idea become the horse's idea._"​ 
But he also wrote this:

"How do you get a horse to go away from the barn?

You wouldn't try to take him away from the barn; you'd just make it difficult for him to hang around there. You would make it difficult by not letting his feet stop - just keep his feet moving...You've made the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy." - page 52​ 
That is making hanging out bad, so going out becomes less bad. That is teaching the horse that the world is full of pressure, so he might as well give in and submit. But it doesn't tap in to the horse's sense of fun, what the cavalryman wrote in the mid-1800s:

"_Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; *they like amusement, variety, and society* : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals...a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or *if attacked with the energy of folly and violence*, would suddenly culminate in *the grand catastrophe of restiveness*..._"

So much of riding and "horsemanship" seems to come down to "_Can you get the horse to DO what you want?_" I think real horsemanship comes down to, "_Can you get the horse to WANT what you want?_"

By selective breeding, many horses are content to live with DOING what the rider wants. That is why my farrier prefers mules - he says they HAVE to want what you want, or they won't do it. And he says that is why so many horse riders can't do squat with a mule - because they have never even IMAGINED trying to get an animal to want what they want.

There is a thread about how many horses have you ridden. I think learning to get a horse to want what you want only comes from riding a horse who won't be ridden any other way. Someone whose horse has taught them to approach horses from that perspective has been given a gift by his/her horse. A gift to use where there is need...an emotional triage for horses.


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## horseluvr2524

Holy cow, Sheba looks a LOT like Amore.

I can completely understand your desire to pick a horse that needs you. My only thought is, would it not be better to find a horse under 10? I'd just like to see you pick a horse that you have a better chance of enjoying a riding life with for 15 to 20 years, rather then 8 or 10 years down the line having the past repeat itself. Just my .02. Take it or leave it.

Perhaps you could volunteer at the rescue (well, if they are in a feasible distance). Then you could work with MANY horses that need your help, and save your second horse spot for one that is healthy and will be rideable for a very very long time.


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## knightrider

@bsms Like Like Like Like your post.

I have a mare, Isabeau, who you MUST get her to want what you want or she won't do anything. She has her own opinions about everything, and she doesn't hesitate to let you know them too. Everyone who rides her likes her. She's great to ride, but it has to be her idea. I've learned a whole lot about figuring out how I can make things her idea.
@gottatrot, I really "get" what you are saying about a horse that needs you. I used to feel sad that I constantly had to make do with other people's cast-offs and rejects, but I think, over the years, I've profited from it more than I realized. There's a special bond when you have a horse that you know wouldn't work for most people but does well with you.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I think any horse can benefit when a rider regularly asks himself, "_What is in this for the horse? Why - or HOW - might he be convinced that doing this is HIS idea?_"
> 
> Ray Hunt wrote:
> 
> "_Let your idea become the horse's idea._"​
> But he also wrote this:
> 
> "How do you get a horse to go away from the barn?
> 
> ...You wouldn't try to take him away from the barn; you'd just make it difficult for him to hang around there. You would make it difficult by not letting his feet stop - just keep his feet moving...You've made the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy." - page 52​
> That is making hanging out bad, so going out becomes less bad. That is teaching the horse that the world is full of pressure, so he might as well give in and submit. But it doesn't tap in to the horse's sense of fun...
> 
> *So much of riding and "horsemanship" seems to come down to "Can you get the horse to DO what you want?" I think real horsemanship comes down to, "Can you get the horse to WANT what you want?"*


Very great post!

Thank you for the kind words about Bandit.

"What is in it for the horse" is the challenge I keep trying to solve. What I believe is that even the horses that will do what we ask because of their breeding and compliant natures will benefit from us figuring out the answer. Do we want a horse to do what we ask, or do we want them to shine because they enjoy doing what we ask?

I often find it challenging just to figure out how to make doing what I want "not negative," and it is super challenging to go beyond that and make it positive. So many people seem to not even be able to think about what is "not negative." Not negative to me means the saddle doesn't hurt, the rider is not nagging and providing enough release, the horse is not asked to ride beyond his fitness level, the horse isn't frightened or overly worried.

The fitness one seems very difficult for most people to figure out. Good friends of mine will think nothing of taking horses out for long, hard rides after a significant amount of time with no exercise. To me that is a negative for the horse. I don't think when horses' lungs and muscles are burning they think about how good the workout will be for them. 

Rather than making riding or getting in a trailer less negative, I would at least like to try for _not _negative or neutral. Hopefully we can even get to positive. What I've found about making horses move their feet is that many horses will find moving out in a safe area less negative than standing and resting in an unsafe area. If the horse feels unsafe away from the barn, he may be happy to keep moving in that safe place where even if he is working hard he doesn't feel in danger. Ditto with the trailer. 



> @Horseluvr2524:
> I can completely understand your desire to pick a horse that needs you. My only thought is, would it not be better to find a horse under 10? I'd just like to see you pick a horse that you have a better chance of enjoying a riding life with for 15 to 20 years, rather then 8 or 10 years down the line having the past repeat itself. Just my .02. Take it or leave it.
> 
> Perhaps you could volunteer at the rescue (well, if they are in a feasible distance). Then you could work with MANY horses that need your help, and save your second horse spot for one that is healthy and will be rideable for a very very long time.


You are my voice of reason. Yes, I'd rather have a horse I could ride for longer. The rescue is a bit too far away to go there often. Something I'm wondering is if I could foster a horse for awhile. Then I'd be donating in a way, by providing for a horse, and also making the horse more adoptable. It would put off getting my own horse, but I'd have plenty to feel good about.


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## horseluvr2524

Fostering I think is a good idea... so long as you don't get too attached! I get so attached to animals that I couldn't foster. I would become the animal's forever home. DH is actually worse than me... he became attached to a cricket I caught to use as lizard bait! Named it Bob and everything... he was happy when my trap didn't work and the cricket got away. LOL!

If I was in the position to be horse shopping, I would not be in any hurry this time around. I'd wait until I found that perfect horse. The ones floating around in my mind lately are OTTB's and haflingers. Polar opposites, but what can I say?

I think that you've earned the opportunity to train your own horse from scratch. Have you thought about getting a real young horse like a 3 year old? I've had a look around at the usual horse ad places (equinenow, craigslist) for horses in Oregon. I must say that your selection is not as good as Arizona. Arizona has an overabundance of horses and people trying to sell them. Not so much in Oregon from what I can see. Guess you need to be part of those FB groups (I don't do FB).


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## Alder

Yes, we grow don't we, with our horses.

If I may comment, these posts have made me realise what my experience has been with my cranky spooky chestnut mare. We've both changed. 
She's still really nervous, as am I, but now we look at each other with some kind of understanding and trust.


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## tinyliny

Gotta, I think you should ride a variety of horses, and 'train' for a while. you enjoyed riding Rascal, and helping him. And you have a good way, and a good mind for horses, so 'helping' others, who have 'people problems' would be a good thing to do , for now. It's time to up your own challenges, to step up to the next plateau on life's journey. Or, you can stay where you are. it's just that jsut as soon as we think we are staying in the same place, we are actually slipping back.


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## Hondo

Some sobering talk and thoughts going on here...


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## gottatrot

Words of wisdom today from Rebel's owner, a few days after losing her horse.


> As devastating as loss is, watching someone or something suffer is worse.


I agree.



> (@Alder):
> We've both changed.





> (@Tinyliny):
> Just as soon as we think we are staying in the same place, we are actually slipping back.


That's one of the best things about horses, how much they can change us and teach us. I want to continue to be challenged by horses, to try to find solutions for things that seem very difficult.
The thread about how many horses people have ridden - it's very interesting but also I know it doesn't tell the whole story. How much you learn is not determined by how many horses you ride, but by how willing you are to learn from each horse. 

It has disappointed me to learn that some of the most famous trainers out there will reject the most difficult horses, because of the time and energy it takes for a little progress. That progress can make all the difference in the horse's life, but is not worth it to many.
********************************************
Tonight after riding Rascal with Nala I was musing over what makes horses difficult. Rascal has despooked so rapidly that now he can pass almost everything on the beach without worry. I think he spooked twice. He's moving over off my seat and legs, and his "incidents" of throwing in kicks, bucks, etc have gone down from 25 or 30 in a ride to about 10. I'm not having to correct him physically for things because he listens to my voice. If I tell him not to do it, he stops. If I tell him it's all right, he calms. 

I could have "let" him gallop today. We did a big, fast canter several times. Except I'm learning it wouldn't be letting him gallop, it would be making him. He has a heavy build and I'm thinking he's going to be more of a 1/4 miler type. He will stay in a trot forever until I tell him to canter. Every time I asked him to go down a gait or slow today, his response was instant. I'd say "OK" before picking up the reins, and he'd drop down usually before I got to contact. 

I'm learning he can be trusted going fast on a loose rein and if anything happens I can pick up the reins and he responds. No need to be within quick contact range. He's pretty content to stay within a gait and rate himself until I tell him otherwise. The more comfortable he gets in the environment, the less likely he is to want to rush off with Nala. 

I've been treating Rascal for a few days with Halla's leftover ulcer medication. Knowing how Halla's anxiety was through the roof with ulcers, I could guess that curing any ulcer issues could make him far more calm. He's already fine for a strong intermediate rider, I'd say and improving rapidly.

He is so much easier than Halla, and that just shows me how much temperament really does play into things. It's not just about giving a horse trust or freedom, because even though you should try that and keep trying it, some horses are always going take a mile if you give them an inch. I don't see this as a bad thing, but it definitely makes them more difficult. Hundreds and hundreds of times I gave Halla the opportunity to be more relaxed, to trot or canter without rein contact. Every single time I did so, she took advantage and went for more speed. We got along famously, but it was a chess match. Everything came into play; the bit, the saddle, my fitness and balance. She would take advantage of any weakness she found. This was not "evil," it was intelligent and understandable.

Making it positive for Halla was about letting her have an outlet for energy and speed. Making it positive for Rascal seems to be about balancing his work with rest and letting him relax and slow from time to time. From what I've read about race training, horses work up to cantering about a mile and a half daily, and do half mile or three quarter mile gallops once or twice a week.

Nala and Halla enjoyed doing full gallops for at least a mile, and in the same ride would often canter two to three miles. Also there would be a couple miles of trotting and a couple miles of walking. That's a lot more work than racehorses get, but is also why we did it several times a week rather than each day. 

I think it will be a stretch to get Rascal doing that hard of work, mentally. But I'd like the horse I own to be capable of that, and also doing at least a 25 mile endurance ride.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Not negative to me means the saddle doesn't hurt, the rider is not nagging and providing enough release, the horse is not asked to ride beyond his fitness level, the horse isn't frightened or overly worried...


Speaking of the fitness one...I've been prioritizing walking with my wife over riding because my waist has been expanding. It has helped. Lost about an inch in a month. But we took the dogs with us to go explore the 'good riding trail' the dirt bike riders told us about. My Border Collie is 9 years old, rarely goes out of the yard, and he zipped around for the 5.5 mile walk. When we got home, he curled up on a bed and mostly refused to move for two days.

With Bandit, I've been wondering how sensitive his feet have been to the rocks. His feet ARE improving, but I want to try boots on the front. The new trail looks very good for horses, but it still requires a mile or more of our standard rocky trails to get there.

It is part of watching your horse, and asking not "_Is he willing?_" but "_Is he enthusiastic?_" It is always going to be a struggle. There are always going to be days where he really would rather just hang out with Trooper and relax. It is a continuous effort: "_What is in it for the horse?_" Like my own Battle of the Bulge, it will never be won, never be "over". Just a continual effort to convince my horse that we CAN have fun doing things together, working as a team. But to any horse, safety and reasonable comfort come first. Only then can the enjoyment enter in - like Mia running down a trail, thinking, "_I'm fast, I'm strong. I'm FAST, I'm STRONG! I'M FAST AND STRONG!_ *I'M FAST AND STRONG!*"

If I'm never willing, or too scared, to let my horse make decisions and tell me what he/she wants to do, then how can my horse ever have fun? We like to say horses are symbols of freedom, but then we too often refuse to give them any. But then, getting a wound up horse to unwind...yeah, it will always be a challenge. And very individual to the horse.


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## egrogan

That’s sort of the point I got to with Izzy-she WOULD do what I asked/made her do, but riding in the arena truly felt like marching her off to her death. Feet dragging, eyes dull, not enjoying a second of it. It is somewhat better if she’s ridden just once or twice a week outside, but she still seems to dread certain routes (I’d guess the hard gravel road is less comfortable than the path through the woods, and not surprisingly she’d rather not go that way). At this point, she pretty much gets to pick what she wants to do and what she doesn’t, and we just stick with the things she shows enthusiasm for. She’s certainly earned that!!

PS-she turns 24 tomorrow


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## updownrider

I am sorry about Halla, gotta. It’s tough to lose the ones we love.


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> I am sorry about Halla, gotta. It’s tough to lose the ones we love.


Thank you so much.

Poor Rascal almost didn't make it back home today. It was cold and raining intermittently, so I was thinking about staying warm and a probably shorter ride.

Once Nala and Rascal hit the beach, we cantered a mile and then trotted a mile with some cantering interspersed. As we rounded out mile three with very little walking, Nala's rider thought we could keep going around the point and do our eight mile ride, but I realized we'd had the fastest pace for Rascal so far and thought it best to turn back. 
Took it a bit easier on the way back and the last 3/4 mile Rascal wanted to stay walking slow. I told him horses were supposed to speed up on the way home, not slow down. He was down to only 5 bucks or kicks, saving his energy. That was 6 miles and he was beat. 

His canter transitions are getting nice. I'm trying to work on getting his head up at the canter. I'd like him to keep a similar posture to the trot, but he wants to canter like this:








That's fine if you're going to lope around an arena, but if you're going over rough ground and stretching into a gallop, you've got to have your head up, looking, and some margin of error for trips. Otherwise you're going a** over teakettle. I let him stretch out at one point and then I was at the end of my reins with no leverage in case Nala decided to put in her 45 mph gallop and drag Rascal along. That would have keeled him off today.
By the end of the ride I had him about here:









We were thinking one of the people who took him and returned him thought he should go with his head curled under in a western saddle. Doubt he adopted that during his track life, but you never know. The first time we bridled him and rode, he went around with his head close to the ground and it took a couple rides to get him to travel with his head up.

I am the worst about running my body on fumes. After work this am at 7, I ate a peanut butter sandwich before going to bed. Slept 5 hours, woke up like a little kid (I get to ride!), forgot to eat and headed to the barn. Rode 6 miles pretty hard, did chores, then my sister showed up at the barn and we went for a three mile interval (faster/slower) run. Driving home after 6 pm, wondered why I felt woozy. "Must be tired." I can never figure out this basic concept that hard work and exercise require fuel more often than every 11-12 hours! My first thought is always that I might be getting sick or need a nap, until last of all I wonder when I previously had food.


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## tinyliny

I've never in my life forgotten to eat. me and food go way back, and I never forget my ol' friend. Never. . . . kind of sad when you think of it.


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## weeedlady

I'm with @tinyliny sadly I never forget to eat. ^^^^^


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## Knave

I get sick if I forget to eat a lot quicker than that. I taught myself to always eat before I go out to do something. You need to do the same!  Maybe even throw a protein bar in your pocket...


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## horseluvr2524

My eating schedule used to be breakfast, a couple of snacks throughout the day (no lunch), and a good sized dinner. That diet doesn't work for pregnancy, I've been having to pack many different snacks for work. And if I'm going to be at the barn for any length of time, I've got to bring snacks. Then sometimes I'll feel hungry but can't eat because of nausea (hello morning sickness! I can't even touch my breakfast  It's rather exhausting. I miss the old days where I could go hours upon hours without food while exercising, and it didn't bother me at all, so long as I ate a good dinner.

Make sure to take care of yourself, it's important! The kind of eating habits you are keeping, along with the intense amount of exercise you do, could hurt you in the long run. But you know that, you are a nurse. :wink:


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## horseluvr2524

Any updates in the life of the great and wonderful @gottatrot ? How are you doing?


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## gottatrot

Good advice about fueling up. I definitely need to be better about it. In my case there is a combination of disliking shopping, disliking cooking, and therefore having nothing good to eat around. It's not that I don't like to eat, but I'd prefer having a mother that would make me food and pack me a lunch. 

A teen who used to come ride Amore with me would bring snacks for us to eat at the barn. Sadly, the teen had to take care of me instead of the other way around. Too bad she grew up and went off to college, now I'm often hungry again. Some of my coworkers bring great snacks to work and give me some. There is some kind of mothering instinct that never goes away, for some of these who like to feed other people. My sister is this way. Sometimes she drops off food for me at my work. It is this type of codependent behavior that reinforces my apathy toward thinking ahead and bringing food for myself. Plus my DH was a complete bachelor until age 34, and was raised by an absentee mother. He always had to fend for himself when it came to eating, which is good since I have no motherly instincts of my own to feed other people. I do make food for us regularly, but only when it is absolutely necessary. :smile:

Some places we've traveled were notable for being difficult places to find food, especially Western Australia and Iceland. The easiest and best places to find great food were Ireland and Hawaii. I can't recall one time we went to get food in Hawaii where it wasn't spectacular. And the breakfasts in Ireland could keep you going all day, if you didn't feel sick after stuffing yourself and then driving around the winding roads for a few hours.

Thinking about travel because we're leaving in a couple of weeks for a trip to Japan that will last about 3 1/2 weeks. We will probably see some interesting native horses on Miyako island and Ishigaki.








It is going to be an amazing trip, and we are planning to visit some remote islands such as one called Aogashima.









Time to fulfill some of my DH's passion, which is travel, since my horse passion is fulfilled all year round. As we travel I hope to have time to think a lot about what my horse future brings.

At the barn some of the horses have been in trouble. Rascal, Leo and Buddy are in the field next to Sizzler, Penny and Pinky. Penny is the giant, young drafty mare and she is another example of desensitizing gone wrong. I've seen this several times now, with foals raised by fairly experienced horse owners. The owners are very concerned about exposing the young horses to everything in the world that might frighten them. In this way, they overly desensitize the horses and teach them that nothing in the world can ever harm them. This creates horses that are very difficult to keep in fences. You can wrap them up in tarps and ride them anywhere. They are fearless. But they also require tons of pressure to get them moving and often destroy their living environment. 








Penny is four years old.
The trouble is that Penny has been playing hard with the geldings across the fence, along with Sizzler her cohort. They have snapped the wire fencing three days in a row. Today the only thing they could do was take the wire down and let the whole mob roam together. 
Rascal looked exhausted coming into his night pen this evening. They must have been very rowdy and played hard. It looked like the barn owner had put up a double fenceline so the horses can't reach each other to play fight. Hopefully that will work. Penny might just charge through anyway.


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## Hondo

Sounds like perhaps said fearless horse could benefit from an introduction to a strand or two of electrified rope?

" It's not that I don't like to eat, but I'd prefer having a mother that would make me food and pack me a lunch. "

That's me to a "T".


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## egrogan

These food comments are so funny @gottatrot and @Hondo. I love everything about shopping for food, growing food, cooking, eating. I'm not a super social person but stick me in the middle of the kitchen with my friends all around me, so I can be focused on the cooking but still part of the conversation, and that's one of my happiest places. I definitely am one of those people who likes to take care of others through food. And that's good because my husband has the metabolism of a 13 year old boy and we often joke that he's a "hard keeper" and needs to have food in front of him at all times :rofl: 

That said- I don't think of myself as mothering at all (hence why we have no plans for kids, which is definitely the right choice for us). BUT, I will take great satisfaction in feeding anyone who shows up in my kitchen. Wish you weren't so far away, I'm always looking for someone who wants to be cooked for!


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> A teen who used to come ride Amore with me would bring snacks for us to eat at the barn. Sadly, the teen had to take care of me instead of the other way around. Too bad she grew up and went off to college, now I'm often hungry again.


:lol::lol:



gottatrot said:


> The owners are very concerned about exposing the young horses to everything in the world that might frighten them. In this way, they overly desensitize the horses and teach them that nothing in the world can ever harm them. This creates horses that are very difficult to keep in fences. You can wrap them up in tarps and ride them anywhere. They are fearless. But they also require tons of pressure to get them moving and often destroy their living environment.
> .


No, sorry, I think it's just the draft types. :lol: I often call them bulldozers because coming through fences is part of the package. Seen many Irish Cobs and Haflingers that go to this category, and at least one of them was still light to ride and one of them rather nervous and reactive. The person who keeps my horses now has one that previously has had a hobby of coming through everything.

Previous workplace's farrier breeds Percherons and he uses electric fencing for bulls.

**

I hate cooking with passion! Sometimes I just eat cereals. I could live on pizza. My partner is the opposite, he spends hours cooking... :icon_rolleyes: But nothing for me because we don't eat the same food.


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## Zexious

I totally hear what you're saying about cooking, gottatrot. I frequently forget to eat because I simply don't enjoy the process of preparing my own meals.
Boyfriend had a stint as a chef, which compounds that issue, but he's almost never home, these days. First world problems.
Maybe get little "snack packs", or fruit? They're convenient, and only require one stop in the store.

How exciting that you're going to Japan! Boyfriend and I are casually talking about a trip in the future. And three weeks?! That'll be wonderful! What all do you have planned?

I had never considered that about desensitizing, but I do see videos on sale ads all the time of horses swathed in tarp, getting slapped with socks, walking through tubes.... My question is when a horse will ever encounter any of those things? xD I have always treated desensitization as a "deal with as it arises" kind of thing. I'm not sure if that's the right answer, but such is life.

Hope you're doing well <3 I love your updates!


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## Fimargue

^ It's not about the objects itself, but getting used to being touched by something odd. it also strengthen the relationship and their trust for human going through these things.

You don't want a horse to bolt if you accidentally lose your stirrup, or panic if they step on something that goes around their leg. Been there.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot and all,

I thought about you talking about Rascal throwing bucks sometimes between gaits, at least early on.

I was reading about a horse being hyper specific on what it saw. A barn from one direction was or could be an entirely different object from another direction. And it was related that horses had been tested on recognizing objects when they were re-oriented or rotated.

It was said that they do not categorize barns as we do but each barn is not only specific but specific at a particular angle.

The author went on to say that a saddle at a walk had a very specific feel that was altogether different at a trot or a canter and that was often or at times the cause for bucks at gait changes.

Sounded interesting.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, the fences are electrified! But I believe they could be turned up a bit higher. Regarding hyper-specific responses, I think that is true for a lot of horses. Rascal does not seem that discerning, so I am believing right now it has been a combination of body issues, insecurity and inconsistent handling/riding that gave him these habits.
Amore, on the other hand had to be desensitized to every new saddle at every gait. She could tell you that every type of saddle and pad does feel different, and it moves differently at every gait.
@egrogan:
So funny about your husband being a hard keeper. Luckily mine is an easy keeper. I think you're right, feeding people is probably not related to being a mother. I just think of it that way since my mom fed us so well.
@Zexious, hope you get to go to Japan. I'm not the trip planner but I hear it will be something like 3 days in Tokyo, 1 on Hachijojima, then to Aogashima for a day. Then Kyoto for 3 days, down to Kyushu (driving around) for 3 days, then to Okinawa for 2 days, then to Miyako, Ishigaki, Taketomi, and Iriomote for a few more days. Last time we went north from Tokyo, to the snowy top of Hokkaido. This time we are going down to the tropics.
@Fimargue, You are probably right about the bulldozer personality being unrelated to the horse being desensitized. It brings to mind a friend training a draft horse that was a bit spookier than the norm. She thought she had him going fine with dragging things until one day he spooked at the board behind him and took down part of the barn and went through three fences. 
My Arabs could spook severely and yet a string across their path would still stop them cold. 

Something I've noted is the wide range of responses horses will have to desensitization. I believe it's always good to do the minimum and expose a horse to things. Many horses will become accustomed to facing new things, learn how to get courage from the response of the rider and gain a boldness that applies to many other things they haven't met yet (Rascal). Many horses will build on each experience. 

Other horses will see every new thing as a potential hazard, and find minute differences in things that are not obvious. Three water buckets might all look different. Getting touched by a stirrup might feel different than getting touched by a rope or by a branch. This is Amore. 
Rascal had five ocean waves hit his legs, and now he has generalized that all waves are fine. Amore after being exposed to many hundreds of waves, still sees each wave as different, and must decide if each individual one is hazardous. 

The boldness or support of the rider is separate from this response, as I react no more to Amore than to Rascal and each paints their own view of life. 

************************************************
Rebel's owner has been out for several rides since her mare passed away, and is bonding to Penny. We took Rascal and Penny out for a sunset ride this evening.
(By the way, I ran out of the house, stopped and went back to grab a bar to take along and eat, thanks to our discussion here).









Such a big mustang.

Without Nala, the green OTTB and four year old were steady and staid. For the first time ever, Rascal did not buck ONCE, did not kick out, and the two of them only spooked in place about three times. To very scary things, I might add. Children shot out at us from behind a bush, shrieking, something popped loudly on the beach, and we were getting passed by cars in both directions at once.

I think I contacted the bit about four times, and everything was on a loose rein. Our cantering was rhythmic and steady, with no one trying to gain speed. It seemed like anyone could have ridden Rascal today. We even had the horses standing still on the beach several times. 









Riding as Nala does is challenging for Rascal, and I could tell he enjoyed himself a lot more at a slower pace and with a more mellow friend. He might do well as a "pick up" ride horse, for the weekly casual ride plus friends who want to tag along. If he stops bucking and keeps going along on a loose rein, plus continues rapidly getting accustomed to all kinds of scenery on the beach, I'm thinking he will be a fine horse for any regular rider very soon.

How far he has come was highlighted when Penny's rider spoke up as we approached the beach. She said we could just walk if I wanted, and didn't need to go in the waves or do anything that might set Rascal off. I believe the last ride she went on with us, Rascal had only been out several times. She was surprised to hear Rascal was completely comfortable trotting and cantering with other horses now, and could go in the ocean without a qualm. In fact, we were the ones steadying Penny, and led the speed changes throughout the ride.


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## Hondo

Very educational post!

Wanted to comment on the electrical fence. You may know all this already but it takes only a very little weed or anything slightly conductive to weaken or turn off the fence by shorting out the current.

I use a test meter that has lights that show stepwise what the voltage is, 2K to 8K. I also have a low voltage indicator right by the main people gate that will flash if the voltage drops below a certain point.

One day it was flashing and I inspected the fence with a fine toothed comb and found nothing. The charger is connected to the solar storage batteries and it turned out the corrosion at the battery alligator clips had weakened the voltage below the indicator setting. 

I use an 8,000 volt charger but in dry weather may have only 4,000 volts or less. Ground rods are important also.

A 2,000 volt charger that I have can become useless in very dry weather.

Unless a horse is panicked, I'm doubting they would go through properly functioning electric fence. I bumped my forehead accidentally on mine once and went completely down. Other wise it's just a very strong jolt.

My horses will bring their chin to within 3-4 inches but they will not touch. Dragon doesn't even test it anymore since I began leaving it on 24/7.


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## Zexious

@Fimargue - I guess to an almost strictly arena rider (with a sticky seat  ), it just seems a bit silly. To each their own, of course. 

Absolutely stunning shot, gottatrot. It almost looks like it could be a greeting card <3
Sounds like you had a really fantastic ride. Will you be going on more with Penny as your trail buddy?


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## bsms

"_Rascal had five ocean waves hit his legs, and now he has generalized that all waves are fine. Amore after being exposed to many hundreds of waves, still sees each wave as different, and must decide if each individual one is hazardous._" - @*gottatrot* 

Thank you. It helps me understand Bandit a little better. To this day, he'll go past 6 garbage cans without a flicker, then be very concerned about the next one. He's pretty good out in the desert, but human neighborhoods are very stressful for him. I would like him to become desensitized to "neighborhood sounds", but he seems to treat each sound and each house...like a new wave. It doesn't seem to matter how many hundreds of houses or cars or trash cans he has seen. Each one remains a NEW house, or the same house but on a new day.

He's a level-headed horse, but I don't think he'll ever give up his caution and just stroll because I say it is OK to stroll - or because Trooper thinks it is, or Cowboy. Raining today (since I have Sunday off, it obviously needs to rain on Sunday!). And we're going on vacation for a week. It will be late March or early April before I can once again work on getting Bandit out regularly. But expecting him to stroll along, thinking, "It is just another house" may be a bridge too far for who he is. 

He's a brave horse. If there was a genuine threat, he's the one most likely to attack instead of run. If a javelina charged from the brush, he might decide to kill the javelina rather than run. He is not a coward by any means. But he's cautious. Not spooky. Just careful. And I don't think that will change.

It helps to know I'm not the only one who has met a horse who says, "_I've seen 427 waves. So what? This is wave 428. New wave. New day._"

PS: Bandit sometimes drops his head low at a canter, but only in the arena. He's unbalanced when he does. I pull his head up when it happens. But he's never yet done it in the open.


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> @Fimargue, You are probably right about the bulldozer personality being unrelated to the horse being desensitized. It brings to mind a friend training a draft horse that was a bit spookier than the norm. She thought she had him going fine with dragging things until one day he spooked at the board behind him and took down part of the barn and *went through three fences*.
> My Arabs could spook severely and yet a string across their path would still stop them cold.


Lordy. :icon_rolleyes: The joy of strong horses with no self preservation instinct.

Came to remind me of the worst of the worst ... Big Irish Cob with big feathers, and the most nervous, uncontrollable horse I have ever known. He once spooked and went through the fences sending fence posts flying and part of that actually pierced the BO's leg. He was slightly better when he found a bigger friend he could hide behind and be with that friend all the time, but farrier days were sometimes interesting. Sometimes when you touched the feathers he would just stomp like mad. And if he didn't want to stay still, well you can guess how fun that was.

Talila would absolutely freak out if something touched her legs. She had so much holes in her training for having been a riding horse that also competed.


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## gottatrot

Was reading a thread about how to stop a horse running for home:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/help-how-do-i-stop-cob-788237/

Some interesting comments. @mmshiro mentioned:


> Isn't it much less hassle in the long run to work with positive reinforcement?


This is something I've been thinking about when working with Rascal this last week. 
On a side note, someone mentioned that it was not good to let a horse run in the same place every time on a trail or toward home. Yes, that's true, especially for the inexperienced. However, I will say that in my experience you can let a horse run in the same place 6 or 7 times and then make them walk or trot it once somewhere randomly in there, and that will give them enough variety to wonder and listen when you do ask them to go slower. 

What you don't want to do is let a horse run in a certain spot over and over, and then put a beginner rider on the horse and expect them to keep the horse walking. The horse is going to send out asking signals that the beginner will miss, and the horse may interpret as "yes, go ahead!"

Back to the positive reinforcement. My fellow riders were not able to go out with me this past week, and that is always my cue to do some neglected training - arena work. Very important stuff, and I believe that arena work enhances riding out which enhances the arena training, and so on.
With Rascal I note two issues: One is that he associates his limited time in arenas with negativity. Two is that he is nervous (although he hides it better than Arabs) in new settings, especially alone.

If I wanted to, I could take Rascal out alone, put him in the arena and I can tell you what will happen. He'll freeze up, call out for other horses, squeal, buck a little, and in general I could lay a crop into him and fight to get him listening to me and ignoring all the other feelings he has. "What a brat." "Bad attitude." "Separation anxiety."

Here's my plan I'm implementing instead. First day, I brought Amore and Rascal to the arena together, and I let Amore loose to wander around, then lunged Rascal in the environment. He was still nervous, bucked a lot, and in the end I had him doing two things I said on the lunge. At that point I quit, set him loose with Amore, and let them stroll around and eat the shoots of grass around the edges. We went home calm.

The next time, I brought Amore and Rascal out together but Rascal had a saddle on. I put Amore in the arena, and got on Rascal outside. He was very reluctant to leave the arena where Amore was. When he stalled out, I pretending I had decided to ask him to go another direction. When he stalled out again, I went another way. We slowly got a little farther away from Amore, and then suddenly I asked him to trot away, then canter across the field away from Amore. He got a little nervous, and then I turned him back and we trotted closer to her again. Then I made him work on some simple circles next to her, made him trot around the outside of the arena, and stood near her but worked on taking a step sideways and back. 

Then I hopped off, praised him, turned him loose with Amore again and let them tool around. The next day when I went to see Rascal, he came walking up to me nickering. Of course Amore thinks this is all great fun, her "working" in the arena consists of walking around and finding grass. 
I was wondering how many days I'd have to fight Rascal to get him feeling better about leaving everyone behind and going out to work alone, versus the more gradual approach which takes into consideration that he will be nervous out there, he should be weaned off having another horse with him (when are horses truly alone at the track?), and in general, "less hassle in the long run." 

Sadly, the more work I see he needs, the more I wish his body didn't concern me. I wish there was a way to know if his issues would always stay minor or progress to major. For instance, he toe drags both hinds at the walk, which could be anything from a stifle issue or SI issue (super difficult to diagnose), to just plain laziness or straighter hind end conformation. His narrowness at the walk and trot in front have improved...how much could they with strengthening? Will he have arthritis young or be like my friend's very toed in horse that didn't get it until her 20s? But he wishes for what all horses want, an understanding partner.


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## Hondo

Hondo often drags his hind toes going down a smooth downhill. I've worried about it but he often just doesn't do it. I'm hoping it is laziness and actually more a result of boredom.

The more I read and experience the more the case for positive reinforcement builds, in my mind.


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## mmshiro

gottatrot said:


> (major snip)
> This is something I've been thinking about when working with Rascal this last week.


I think this is one of the main reasons why people don't like Clinton Anderson much. Unless he desensitizes, I never saw him working on reassuring the horse. It's always, "If your horse wants to do something he shouldn't, take his breathing privileges away. He'll get over it quickly." What if, for example, all you achieve is add another anxiety to the existing one? How can he get more comfortable with being away from his buddy by being run in circles when he's next to him? I think your approach, step-by-step telling him that being away from his buddy is temporary and will not lead to catastrophe, will ultimately lead to the horse trusting you more and solve the problem.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, does Hondo wear off the toes of his hinds at all? Rascal's toes get worn in the front. 



mmshiro said:


> "If your horse wants to do something he shouldn't, take his breathing privileges away. He'll get over it quickly."


That approach would seem to work better if the horse does not have endless energy, or if the horse does not have the need to stop and think about the problem. With the first type you're likely to just work them up until they have difficulty learning what you want them to, and with the second type you are also not letting them think about what you want, which can slow learning. 

Something I try to think about is if a horse thinks better when moving or standing. Brave and Rascal both like to take a second. "Wait a minute, let me figure out what's going on here." With my Arabs, you better let them move instead...if you tried to stop and have them look or think, they would be bound to take a look and then double their initial reaction. 

The woman who was taking care of Rascal at the rescue is very much a CA type of handler. When I lunge him, I can see that every time he bucked or ran, she forced him forward. But why would I do that if I want him to slow down and be calm? Instead, when he bolts off and bucks, I bring him in and tell him to walk and start over. He expects me to push him on, and he's quite ready to keep running and bucking, thinking perhaps that is what a person wants him to do when lunging.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> @Hondo, does Hondo wear off the toes of his hinds at all? Rascal's toes get worn in the front.


Now that you ask, not much. So maybe the toe dragging on the back is not so often. On the front, yes. He keeps a nice Mustang roll. I just trimmed him the other day. On all fours I start nipping at the pillars and get deeper at the quarters and then out about half way through the heels. On the toes I don't use the nippers at all, ever. Just roll a little steeper through the water line.

And I take out no dead sole that can't be dug out with the "Ultimate" hoof pic. I've decided if he doesn't think heeds it, he'll turn it loose on his own.

Oh, that's right, you only asked about the hind toes!


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## gottatrot

My new version of Equus magazine has a good article about Teddy Roosevelt and his riding escapades.

At one point he helped organize and train a mounted cavalry, then led it into battle in the Spanish-American war.
He said:


> Half the horses of the regiment bucked, or possessed some other of the amiable weaknesses incident to horse life on the great ranches; but we had abundance of men who were utterly unmoved by any antic a horse might commit. * Every animal was speedily mastered,
> though a large number remained to the end mounts upon which an ordinary rider would have felt very uncomfortable.*


I believe I've met a few horses like this! I'm a bit worried Rascal might end up like that.

He said this after moving to Washington:


> I do not want a horse with which I have an interesting circus experience whenever we meet an automobile, or one which I cannot get to go in any particular direction without devoting an hour or two to the job.


I guess horses are the same in our era as they were in his.

He had a reactive horse named Renown when he first moved to Washington, and he was frightened of cars and traffic. After a few weeks he said:


> Renown is behaving better about automobiles and the like. I think the difference is largely in the way I handle him. He is a very good-natured and gentle horse, but timid and not over-wise, and when in a panic his great strength makes him well-nigh uncontrollable.
> Accordingly, he is a bad horse to try to force by anything. If possible, it is much better to give him a little time, and bring him up as gently as may be to the object of terror. When he behaves well I lean forward and give him a lump of sugar, and now the old boy eagerly puts around his head when I stretch out my hand.


I think Roosevelt was a horseman some of us could have gotten along well with. Positive reinforcement, right? Reminds me of Amore...when she used to get very scared I'd have an apple and would bite and give her a piece. Soon she'd stop cold and swing her head back at the sound of me biting into an apple. Was very cute I thought.

Horses have probably been teaching people how to be horsemen since people and horses first began working together. Anyone who is willing to listen can learn from the horses. "My horses, my teachers" as Podhajsky would say.


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## Hondo

Rascal is very fortunate to have crossed paths with you.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Rascal is very fortunate to have crossed paths with you.


Getting a horse is very serious, in my mind. It is something that I believe should be based on logic and commitment rather than feelings and wishful thinking. That being said, I have to say that when I read the above quote it gave me a happy feeling inside and obviously I'm more than a little attached to Rascal.

We've been spending a lot of time together, and with Amore. 
Yesterday we went out riding on the beach alone. The elk were all over the dunes, and I led Rascal by them all. He was less frightened than the last time we faced them, but still snorted loud enough to rival any Arab. 

Once on the beach, he stood next to a log while I mounted (neither of my Arabs would have been able to stand still for mounting within fifteen minutes of something that caused a snort). 
He thought he should rush off, but I asked him to walk and he did, for as long as I wanted. Then I had him trot, and canter, all alone away from home at dinnertime, no bucking, no spooking, and I thought "This is a horse I could really enjoy."

We braved the elk again, with me dismounting and leading Rascal past the big horned males nearest us. He pranced around me in circles, and as we neared the closest beach house an elderly woman came out and asked, "Do you ride the horse or does he ride you?" It was cute, she must have waited ten minutes for us to get close enough to give me her joke. 
Regardless of how it appeared, there was no trampling of the human body parts, perhaps because I'm very experienced in "horse twirling." 

I'm sure someone can tell me that they would not allow a horse to rush past them on the lead, ever, and I would love to hear exactly how to accomplish this in these situations. I've seen people that have the horse stop and back up, but I didn't have an hour to get home, and the thing about horse twirling is that you gain a few yards with each spin, so eventually get past the frightening area and then can lead normally, or get back on and ride home. So I guess I just twirl horses when they're frightened. Sometimes I think it's pretty good exercise.

This past week I've looked at hundreds of horses online, and yet I keep thinking of other people they would be good for. My friend is possibly going to look at this OTTB - she's a heavyweight and this boy is 16 hands and solid. I think he would be great for her.








Mostly I see horses that would be good for Rascal's owner, LOL.

So I talked to my DH and he already likes Rascal's personality, and likes the idea of me getting a horse under 10. I emailed Nala's rider and asked her what she thought about her BF and Rascal, were things working out and told her I was getting attached to Rascal. I asked if perhaps he would rather borrow a horse on occasion, or find a more mellow horse better for the occasional rider. I said I should think about it a little longer, but wanted to see if they were open to letting me own Rascal.

Someone had asked what the difference was between me using Rascal and owning him, but there are some differences for me. For one thing, I always keep in mind that he belongs to a less secure rider, so I haven't done things that might amp him up. I've never galloped him yet, and have focused a lot on keeping him slower with Nala. I have made sure he always walks up the dunes and never canters, which I always let my own horses do.

But also, if Rascal were my horse I'd probably adjust his diet a bit, try some extra magnesium and E to see if it helped his toe dragging, give him some biotin to help his hooves since he's a TB. There are lots of things, but mainly I'd just commit to doing everything I could to giving him a postive and healthy life. 

His joints and legs feel clean, I've palpated them many times now. He can and does lift his legs and move well, and backs handily, just sometimes does the dragging. What I've read about stifle issues is that the horse tends to have them all the time. Since I haven't been able to talk myself out of falling for him, I decided that worst case I could learn a new discipline, if he couldn't handle hard distances. 

I told DH that if I get Rascal, he might need a new name. Something to live up to, since I don't want him to just be a Rascal his whole life.


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## Hondo

I've got so many comments. Thinking back to Round Pen Square Horse and the decision process for selecting Amore. Well, it worked. What would your life have been without her? And with Rascal, you'll know that you went far far beyond the analysis done for Amore. Little teasing going on here

Changing his name huh? I remember back when I first thought I detected a growing affection you said, "Rascal was really a rascal today", in a context that suggested you seemed to like him being a bit of a rascal. But I could be wrong.

The difference in riding someone else's horse or owning it is very huge to me. But I seem to be more personal than many of the horse people I read about. To me it's the difference in dating around, playing the field, and then getting married. The relationship I have with Hondo forms a very huge part of the pleasure I experience when riding him, or just looking out the window and seeing him.

Horse twirling! Funny! I've done some of that myself. Heck, a horse get's excited just like people. Many horse trainers would just wag their heads at stuff I allow. But he will leave a nice trail surface to go around a low hanging limb without my request. I'm guessing some horses would criticize him for that.

*"Mostly I see horses that would be good for Rascal's owner, LOL."*

Now that gave me a good chuckle

*"it gave me a happy feeling inside"* To me, that is what the association with a horse is mostly about.

* "I don't want him to just be a Rascal his whole life."* Are you sure about that? 

I could go on but I'll stop there.


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## egrogan

Hey @gottatrot, I think it was me who asked about whether or not it would be different for you to own Rascal vs. ride him whenever you want. I was thinking about it from the "access" perspective, but it makes sense that you're saying you'd ride him differently if his actual owner wasn't more of a beginner rider. I get that. It will be exciting to hear what you all decide!

The "who's riding who" comment was funny to me because I often wonder what people think about all the walks on the road I do with my girls (including my barn mates, I think they think I'm crazy :wink. I often pass the same people in their cars or with their dogs while I'm walking a horse, and I just have to laugh at myself out walking my giant "dogs."


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## knightrider

The plot thickens! This is very exciting! I support you, Gottatrot, in whatever you decide.

I love "horse twirling." That is exactly what Isabeau does when being led to the trailer. She's calm and steady until she thinks she is going in a trailer, then she circles around me in a panic. She runs right in the trailer when we get to it. All I have to do is let go of the lead rope, but getting there is a challenge. Sometimes I run right alongside her towards the trailer rather than "twirl" her. It's faster, and we both know how it's going to end--with her in the trailer going somewhere.

I imagine serious horse trainers would roll their eyes at my "twirling" her towards the trailer. But the thing about Isabeau is, the more you get after her, the more upset she gets, until she is a frantic mess. I can stop her and make her stand still, but she just gets more and more anxious when I do that. So I twirl her towards the trailer, and in she goes.

I wonder how many of us don't actually go along with everything these horsetrainers insist must happen. One of the things I DON'T do, is insist my horses back off and stand while I put their food or hay in their tubs. Years ago, when I was a teen, I would hold out the hay and let the horse have a sample before dumping it. I used to joke that I was letting my horse "sample the wine" before they got it. I still do that. It makes me happy and it makes them happy. I don't worry about it much because I get done everything I want to get done. My horses are respectful and good. What more do I need?


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## bsms

Just a side note on twirling...

Bandit's owner was a Clinton Anderson fan. He turned to CA's videos because CA was so much gentler and so much more understanding than many of the local experienced horsemen around him. That gives one pause for thought....

But Bandit, like Mia, hates being turned in circles. I believe it is rooted in the "disengaging" done by many "natural horsemanship" trainers. Dismount Bandit, or lead him, and then expect him to move around in a circle, and he responds with increasing fear. Mia was the same way - had no problem with backing up, or taking a wide detour, or being yelled at even. 

But she viewed moving in a circle as something a human does to the horse. She wasn't initiating the twirl, but viewed it as an additional stress imposed from outside. At the time, I thought it was just her nature. Bandit, and his known time with CA training, has me wondering if someone had done some "natural horsemanship" with her and left her afraid of it. Like Bandit is.

I think that is also the root of Mia wanting me to NEVER dismount when she was afraid. I think she expected to be punished if someone dismounted because she was 'acting up' - so her solution was to take off running if someone TRIED to dismount. Because....if the rider couldn't get off, he couldn't punish her, could he?!

Anyways, I understand twirling in the sense of a horse WANTING to get release. The HORSE doing the twirling. But I wonder if that is the root of why some people then get off and MAKE their horse 'disengage'. Which has had bad results with Mia and Bandit, although Bandit at least is content for me to dismount when his is afraid. Few things suck quite as bad as being on a scared horse who refuses to allow you to dismount...have some very bad memories of being on Mia at times like those.

The difference of course is *whose idea it is* - the horse's to twirl, or the human's to 'disengage'. Like so many things with horses, *WHY* one does a thing can affect how well that thing works.

PS: "_I wonder how many of us don't actually go along with everything these horsetrainers insist must happen._" I believe very little of what I read any more. So much of what I've read or seen preached has no relation to what I see in my horses. People get annoyed when I act like lessons are not critical, but so much of what I see and hear and read just doesn't match what my horses tell me. :evil:


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## horseluvr2524

I just knew that Rascal would end up being yours, ever since he first showed up. I mean, I know it's not all decided yet, but I'm just saying, that has been the nagging feeling with me from the start. :wink:

Good to hear you mention that he is under 10, I had forgotten his age.

"Once on the beach, he stood next to a log while I mounted (neither of my Arabs would have been able to stand still for mounting within fifteen minutes of something that caused a snort). 
He thought he should rush off, but I asked him to walk and he did, for as long as I wanted. Then I had him trot, and canter, all alone away from home at dinnertime, no bucking, no spooking, and I thought "This is a horse I could really enjoy.""

He reminds me of that OTTB I fell in love with, TL. That horse was much older though, in his teens, and in the long run probably would not have been a good choice for me. Anyway, I really enjoy those TBs that have that amiable personality, and are so sensitive and fluid, and you can take them out and gallop them safely because they easily come back down from that. Does Rascal feel like a rocket bunched underneath you? That's the way TL felt. He moved with so much power that even at a completely relaxed walk, he felt as though he were ready to launch out of the starting gate into a full gallop. Such an incredible horse. I told my DH that I want to find another TL as our second horse, since my Shan is going to become the kiddo's horse eventually.

Shan has a good mind like what you described above. But she takes a little more to keep going. Scratch that, she takes a little more effort to keep going on dressage/arena exercises. She will go any speed you want trail riding easily, and does speed up doing game type things in the arena with barrels, poles, etc. So I guess it's just overwhelming boredom from dressage exercises lol! Not that I blame her. It does get boring and that's why I only arena schooled once or twice a week, to keep her responsive on the trails.


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## gottatrot

@bsms, interesting about Bandit and Mia not liking circling. I would agree that if it is initiated as punishment it could be very stressful and negative for the horse. Our twirling is more like the horse is going too fast for the human to keep up, so human redirects the energy to allow for better pacing. The feet are moving already, and I am directing. As you say, different from making the feet move. 
@Hondo is right, I do enjoy Rascal's personality. But still, maybe a horse should have a name to grow into...?

My dog Gilligan was Enchilada, my old Dalmatian Bucky was Blacky (seriously), our cat Kikko was Squirrel Fluff (anyone would agree that one needed changing), Halla was Sophie, Amore was Tinkerbell. We tend to give a new name for a new life. I have a couple ideas in mind, just in case...
@horseluvr2524, I wouldn't say Rascal feels like a rocket like TL. Halla felt like that, always a tight spring ready to launch. He feels more like a steady power, like driving a big truck. It's always there, but a little slower to tap into than a sports car.

Well, I haven't heard back from Nala's rider about my email several days ago. I'm not sure if that means she is busy, or if it is a tricky decision for her. I'm pretty sure I know what her ideal would be, and that would be for me to just "share" Rascal with her BF. Doing most of the training and riding while not amping him too much, and also sharing half of the costs and providing the hoof care. But I need my own horse, and that means even if they want to keep Rascal, I'm going to have to use my resources for another, so even if I help exercise him it will be without paying for it.

A person can see it either way. I've been doing free training, but she's given me a horse to ride. I could think she should pay for training, she could think I should pay to ride. Technically we'd be even-ish, but I'm more of a giver so I've been helping with costs. Probably if I get another horse it will be one needing work before I can get on and ride down the beach. So I'd like to keep riding Rascal, but if they think I keep helping with costs in order to use him, I'll have to just wait until my own horse is ready. 

It's always interesting how people see things. I've often let people ride my horses for free, because I'd rather my second horse had the exercise. Other people I know believe that someone riding your horse should pay for the privilege. 
Well, I'm trying not to get too set on having Rascal for myself, because Nala's rider really has first say since she was the one who decided to bring him home.

Something that made me want him even more...today he was in trouble for jumping the fence into Nala and Amore's field. The barn owner was worried he's going to start jumping fences. I was thinking the exercise, stretching, massage, magnesium, Vitamin E and joint supplements I've been already giving Rascal are making him feel really good. Maybe he'll even be able to do some jumping - seems like he might like it! I've thought with all the bucking he does, that there wouldn't be much difference in impact on his body with some low level jumping. 

Well, this is my last post for awhile. Around this time tomorrow we'll be heading off for great adventures in Japan. Back around the 18th next month. I will try not to obsess about Rascal, but you know when we're boating down a canal with cherry blossoms surrounding us, I'll also be thinking about horses and what the future might bring...


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## bsms

Enjoy the vacation. And remember - without pictures, it didn't happen!

BTW - I'd be thrilled if someone said, "_Hey, how about I help you get your horses some exercise?_" My only question of payment would be, "_How much do YOU charge?_" Followed by, "_How often can you come ride?_"


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## ChasingDreams

I “pay” to lease a horse, so I see where the pay-to-ride mentality comes in. But, I think rider and horse experience definitely make a difference. The horse I lease is a finished, beginner safe horse I use for my kids and if I want to bring a guest riding with me. The horse doesn’t need training. She can use the exercise for sure, but if anything my using her for kids and beginners is more detrimental to training than helpful.

A very experienced rider, training a “troubled” horse that the owner couldn’t manage on their own...well people pay big bucks for that around here. Several thousand a month sometimes.

So honestly, in your situation if you end up getting your own horse I would absolutely expect any additional riding you do with Rascal to be a favor to his rider...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## egrogan

Have an awesome vacation @gottatrot! Can’t wait to see the pictures.

Maybe a month without you working Rascal will give his people some perspective


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## gottatrot

Got back from our travels late last night. I can't call it "vacation," since we travel hard, but it was an amazing experience and I'll post a few pics and a couple stories later. The wildlife is one of the best parts for me, and we were able to see some "wild" (feral) horses and some wild monkeys, as well as some other interesting and amazing creatures. 

This morning I caught up on some of my favorite journals here to see what others have been up to. 

This afternoon I went out to check on Amore and she looks great. No cuts or skin issues, her hooves look good, and she's shedding well which means she was given her Cushing's pill daily. So nice to have a good barn with people you trust to take care of your horses when you must be away.

When I arrived at the barn, I saw the barn owner and she told me everything had been fine while I was gone. Then she told me that Nala's owner's boyfriend had told her I was going to take over owning Rascal. I asked if he sounded fine with that, and the barn owner said he seemed very relieved, and told her he was hoping to find a horse more appropriate for him and one that he could enjoy more.

Now you have to realize that I had not heard back from Nala's owner anything about Rascal. She is not necessarily the most communicative person, so I wasn't sure exactly what that meant, or if she wanted to talk in person when I came back from my trip. 

While I was gone, my friend from down the coast went to look at some OTTBs based on the FB link I told her I was looking at for potential horses. She ended up getting a beautiful gelding for herself. He's 8, 16.1 hands. Was named Glitter but is now Bellamy. Neither of us care for gray because of the mud factor, but she said a good horse is never a bad color and I agree. She's already had him to the beach and ridden him with other horses, and he's stellar for a green OTTB. I'm happy for her.









We were moving along and super busy on our trip, so didn't have a lot of time and energy for deep thoughts about the horse future. However, each time I tried to get excited about my own new Arab or OTTB it wasn't there. I was much more excited for my friend. And I missed Rascal as much as Amore, and when I came home he didn't look at me like other horses at the barn I visit with. He was like, "Oh, there you are. Come scratch under my neck and toss me a treat." Like he owned me already. Which he does.

Sounds like I just need to verify that the barn owner was right with Nala's owner, and then I'll have that Rascal for good.


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## tinyliny

what was the trip all about? work? I mean, why were you travelling so hard it felt like 'work'?

I think I mentioned that I lived 3.5 years in Japan, way, way back, so I have a special feeling for that country. I'd love to hear about where you went. 
I assume the wild horses were at Mt. Aso?

and, the monkeys near Kurashiki? by chance, or , were they further up north?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> what was the trip all about? work? I mean, why were you travelling so hard it felt like 'work'?


Well, my husband's passion is for travel, he has an itch for exploring and seeing new things. It's not a complaint that it is tough sometimes, we both enjoy the adventures. But we try to make the most of the time/money spent by seeing many things and going many places. I find that the mental break from work and normal life does me a lot of good, even though most people do prefer to vacation by relaxing instead. 



tinyliny said:


> I think I mentioned that I lived 3.5 years in Japan, way, way back, so I have a special feeling for that country. I'd love to hear about where you went.


I did not know much about Japan the first time we went, having some vague ideas about Japanese gardens, temples, Geisha and Sumo wrestlers. It's a special place and we feel an underrated travel destination. Lots of natural beauty with the volcanoes and island shores. What area did you live in? I didn't realize you lived there so long. You must speak a lot of Japanese. We tried to learn a little but can basically count to ten, say thank you and good morning, things like that. But we've traveled North to South now and a person can get along just fine without speaking Japanese. 



tinyliny said:


> I assume the wild horses were at Mt. Aso?
> and, the monkeys near Kurashiki? by chance, or , were they further up north?


On our last trip we were in the north, and we saw some Japanese monkeys in a botanical garden. These monkeys were in southern Kyushu, near Kagoshima, along the Nichinan coast. These monkeys were bigger. We'd heard about monkeys in other countries that would grab people's glasses or bite, so we thought we'd be careful when we saw them in the road. But these were very wild and shy, so it was difficult to even get close enough to take pictures. The horses were there too, on Cape Toi which is on the southern part of the Nichinan coast. The horses were more used to people and did not run off.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> then she told me that nala's owner's boyfriend had told her i was going to take over owning rascal.


!! Yay !!


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## tinyliny

Kagoshima is sort of near Mt Aso. Did you go to Ibusuki, (I think that is the name), and get buried up to your neck in the steaming black sand at the beach?

I lived in Tokyo all that time, though in two different locations. we tried to get out and travel as much as possible. I told my Japanese friends/students (I taught ESL) about my travels and they said that I had seen more of their country than they had!

If you ever go back, there are islands off of Tokyo that are an overnight ferry ride away. Oshima. Niijima. They have volcanic rock fields, hot springs, and great snorkeling . they are semi-tropical and very wild and feel like you are in the middle of the Ocean. 

Also, . . . well . . . I could go on and on.


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## knightrider

What kind of monkeys are those? Very interesting. Exciting about Rascal too!!!!


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> Kagoshima is sort of near Mt Aso. Did you go to Ibusuki, (I think that is the name), and get buried up to your neck in the steaming black sand at the beach?.


We wanted to go to Mt. Aso (and there are horses there, as you said), but didn't have enough time. We thought about doing the black sand but we would have had to do it in the morning, and thought about how hot, sweaty and dirty we would probably be afterward so decided not to do it. :smile:

Tokyo is a crazy and amazing place, and it must have been quite the experience to live there. We went to a couple of islands off Tokyo that we flew to. The first was Hachijojima, and we drove and hiked around there. Then we took a helicopter from there to Aogashima, which was even more remote and semi-tropical as you said. Very beautiful. We heard the star-gazing is phenomenal but unfortunately it was overcast when we were out there.

In Tokyo we did the Mari-Cars. You dress up in a costume and get in a Go Cart. Then somehow they let you drive around Tokyo with all the cars. It is crazy.
















I knew we were planning to do this, and thought I understood it. However, we got into the Go Carts with a group of about five other people. Then the leader told us how to drive the carts and said to follow his signals and be sure to keep close and not get separated. Next thing I knew, I was speeding along the road in a tiny Go Cart and it was terrifying. My body was telling me it was not safe, I didn't know how stable the vehicle was, and with one foot on the accelerator and one on the brake, I wasn't sure if I could keep up properly or stop. 

After about five minutes I realized it was an acceptable risk, and no different from galloping a horse on the beach. Then I started having a blast! We drove for 3 hrs all around downtown Tokyo, twice over the Rainbow Bridge at 45 mph, next to all the cars and semi trucks, over Shibuya crossing twice, under Tokyo Tower, all in the dark with the city lights and views. Just amazing. Going 45 mph in a Go Cart on a highway feels like the craziest thing, you're sitting on the ground and it feels like you're just flying (and you feel every bump). It truly feels like being in a video game. People wave at you and take pictures as you go, because it looks so funny to see people in costumes driving Go Carts. That's what Japan is like.

I think the monkeys are called Macaque monkeys. 
One more video, we were able to find Fiddler crabs in the mangrove swamp on Iriomote. They were so tiny and cute. Funny to see how the males have to eat with one claw since they have a big one while the females have little ones so can eat with both hands.


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## gottatrot

I heard back from Nala's rider and with little fanfare she said yes, they need to find her boyfriend a different horse and she's glad I want to take Rascal. 

Now I'm letting myself get happy and excited. So many things to do! Suddenly I realize that while I was willing to completely start a horse or retrain one, it's great to already have some training done. But now I'm thinking about all the things I want my horse to know how to do, and am working on a list of things to teach Rascal. It's hard to invest a ton of time into someone else's horse, but when it's your own horse everything is worth it. 

I want him to know how to back out of tight spaces, how to lunge properly and well, how to trot over cavaletti and poles for strengthening, how to open gates and stand for mounting on both sides. Lots to work on.

I also hate his rope halter which is difficult to tie, and he needs a bridle that fits him since all I have are cob sized. 

I've been thinking for awhile about what his new name should be and I'm leaning toward Heroic. Not as common a name as you'd think, according to my search but there was a famous Australian racehorse with that name. It reminds me of Heraldic, the famous endurance horse, and would be something to live up to. He'd go by Hero. Something like, "A Rascal turns Heroic."


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## tinyliny

Next time I go to Japan, I'm hiring YOU as my guide~!! where the heck did you learn of these things? I've never heard of any of that.


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## egrogan

Yay Rascal!! :grin:


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## Dragoon

The song by Bonnie Tyler immediately starts playing in my head!

"He's gotta be fast, and he's gotta be strong, 
And he's gotta be larger than life!
I need a hero!"

Congratulations! 
Knowing they are your responsibility, makes all the difference! <3


Keep us updated on the guy's search for a suitable mount!


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## Hondo

I of course have no way of knowing, but I would not be a bit surprised to learn that a good many Hero's had a good bit of Rascalism within their personality make up.


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## weeedlady

I love Rascal's new name. And I'm excited for you!


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## gottatrot

Learned a lot today about Hero.

His registered name is Radiant Rascal, born April 28, 2008. He was sold in 2009 for $6,000 then sold again in 2010 for $7,000. He did not race until January 2013, and was in 4 races. He has a (KY) after his name on the Equibase site which I am guessing might mean he was bred in Kentucky? But his first sale was at the Washington Thoroughbred Breeder's Association summer sale. He was raced in Arizona at the Turf Paradise track.

He only earned $3,333 and was second in one race, did not place in the others. It was interesting to watch his race videos. In his first race, he ran along with the front but didn't seem to want to pass all the others. In his second race he was in the middle of the other horses but kept running steadily and finished second. In his third race he came out of the gate very slow, then sped up a little to reach the middle of the pack. In his last race he went along near the back and then sped up after awhile, went on the outside and ran faster to finish 4th.

In every race the jockey used the crop quite a bit, which explains why he was completely unimpressed early on when I used it as a reprimand for bucking. My impression was that he could run fairly fast but was unmotivated to do so and didn't seem to have a real competitive drive to win. 

His grandsire is Mr. Prospector, a very common and popular racehorse sire. Who had a right front leg that turned out, which he tended to pass on and explains the slight outward turn of Hero's front right leg. Mr. Prospector also passed on small hooves, which is why Hero can fit into Halla's Renegades. His hind legs were also quite straight, which I have also noted in Hero a bit of straightness. But he had other faults which Hero does not have, so thankfully there are other horses with strong influences to counteract. Some Mr. P progeny have been unsound, many also have tended to be good jumpers and athletes. 
Radiant Rascal Horse Pedigree

I found out that besides the vet check Nala's rider did when taking Rascal/Hero for free, at least one other "taker" who later returned him did a vet check which he passed. 
A question I have is why he only started racing at 5. Was he late to mature or difficult to train? A plus for potential long term soundness in my book.

**************************************************
We took Nala and Hero out to the beach to start getting everyone back in shape. Nala's rider had been sick so did not ride much in the last month either. 

I guess some would say that a horse will live up to your expectations. I believe that can be true, but I also try not to have unrealistic expectations. What do I expect from a green almost-ten-year-old OTTB after a month with no work? Not much.
I certainly don't expect calm leisure on horseback.

But I also believed that we were all capable of just heading out for a ride. So I hopped on Hero and he had a little nervous energy and needed a little support, prompting here and there, steadying here and there, but we mostly went in a straightish/walkish/joggish fashion down to the beach. 

That was when I noticed how free I felt. Hero could do what he wanted, and I had no responsibility to work on toning everything down to a beginner level. Sheesh, that was going to be such a long road anyway. I mean, we bucked in the field, we bucked on the beach. You'd understand if you ever watched a superhero movie like Spiderman. They always are finding out about their talents by crashing into walls, flying up to the ceiling and blasting things. That's where Hero is at. All powers and no control. So, like in the movies, we have to teach him how to focus his power and turn it into useful things that save humanity. Or don't kill his rider. Same thing.

I let him power down the dune. I let him loose to canter in his own way a few times and hump and jump and figure it out. I let him stretch into a big running stride that bordered on gallop, and felt his mind to see if he was losing it. He wasn't.

But it was a hot day and I have learned that I must have him quit before he decides he is tired, because he doesn't know his super powers yet. Just as we neared the beach exit, I felt him get discouraged and deflate. All rules with horses must be broken from time to time, so I had him trot fast toward the exit and home to encourage him and pep him up. He didn't think he could go up the steep dune without bucking, but I told him he could choose any other way except one that popped me in the air, so he decided to trot it.

With no beginner to think about, I let him move out toward home to keep him encouraged, and he was less fussy. At the tie rack I mistakenly put the saddle close to him and he knocked it to the ground with his nose and pretended he was still a Rascal until I hosed him down and let him writhe his back into the sand. Then he tried looking regal and heroic again, with globs of sand clumped all over his coat. Almost pulled it off too.


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## Knave

I love your update! I’m sure it is very relieving to ride him as your own.


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## bsms

**** Francis told a story of a race horse he rode regularly. He knew before the start if he was going to win that day. He could feel something in the horse, an attitude of "Let's go kick some butt!" And on those days, all he had to do was stay on and sail to an easy victory. The horse has serious speed and won every race he felt like winning.

But he also had many races where the horse gave a mental yawn heading to the start. On those days, he learned nothing he did would avail him. At best, a mid-pack finish. Back of the pack if he used the whip. So he would make a big pretense out of whipping the horse (without touching him), so he could tell the betters he had tried his best. The horse's owner understood and accepted the wins the horse chose.

Before he turned to writing with his wife, **** Francis was best known for this spectacular non-finish in the 1956 Grand National:










"However, the Grand National eluded him, though he came tragically close when Devon Loch was only 50 yards from the winning post and far in front of the others but suddenly collapsed.

The mystery has never been solved though Francis believed that his mount stumbled as they raced for the finish because they hit a sudden wall of noise as the Aintree crowd roared at the prospect of the National being won by a horse belonging to the Queen Mother."

Former jockey and best-selling author **** Francis dies at 89 | Daily Mail Online


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## gottatrot

^^^^^^^That is a crazy story!
I've read some **** Francis books and enjoyed them. Hadn't heard that story. The steeplechase looks crazy - all the horses just mobbed together. 
It looks like the horse takes a hop before he slips. Probably just a freak thing.

Sometimes when we talk about racing it strikes me how unpredictable horses and their moods can be. Hard to believe people stake so much of their fate on an animal that might wake up feeling a bit lazy that day. 

It will be interesting to see if I can show Hero that running might be fun rather than work. Something that made me laugh was that even in the race he was second, as soon as they crossed the finish line and the jockey stopped pushing, he was immediately at the back of the pack. My impression is that his brakes are going to be very good. 

But things could change if he has had any body issues that made him sore and soured his attitude, and those clear up with gradual conditioning. He might be one to use reverse psychology on and let him think he is making some decisions to go faster rather than trying to push him. My impression is that he has a mental block against being pushed.


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## gottatrot

*Japan Horses Part I:*

I haven't yet told about the horses we saw in Japan (lots of pics). Mostly it is a cute story, but there is a sad part...

In Kyoto at the Fushimi Inari shrine I saw a giant horse peeking out from inside a building. Not sure what he represented...

















I've already posted video of the horses at Cape Toi on Kyushu. They seemed to be maintaining themselves fairly well. In the gift shop they had posted photos of all the foals born this year.

































On Okinawa I saw two Thoroughbred looking types, one had an unusual white marking on the chest. The arena next to them had jumps set up.

























At the aquarium was a horse made out of plants.









To be continued...


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## gottatrot

*Japan Horses Part II:*

On Miyako island another horse made of plants.








At the botanical garden there were several ponies, in slightly poor condition. Perhaps wormy, I wondered? These guys were only 10 or 11 hands. There was hay in their feeders.
















At the shell museum on Miyako, we saw another horse. :smile:









But later we drove past the "pony farm" on Miyako and saw ponies in terrible condition.
















These ponies are Shetland sized and should be extremely easy to keep. The cows on the property looked fat and healthy. I think there is some big problem with the management. It looked like there might have been piles of sugar cane in the pen. That would probably be the worst thing possible to feed to a pony. There appeared to be a lot of fiber on the ground that would be mainly indigestible to horses, similar to straw, which would explain the large bellies and emaciated appearance. 

I knew there would be no way to find a person and communicate any of this at the farm, since I speak no Japanese. I am contacting a friend to see if she can help translate for me and send an email to express some concern about these horses. Seeing these ponies was depressing. Although I've heard Japan can have issues with animal welfare, I had not seen anything personally until this. In general I saw healthy and clean animals all around Japan.

The next island we visited, Ishigaki had some larger ponies at least 14 hands or so. These people obviously have a better idea about caring for horses.
















I also saw some smaller ponies around 12 hands.

















I saw ponies on Taketomi island which also looked healthy (did not get photo), and even the most remote island of Iriomote had a healthy looking pony.


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## tinyliny

the little Asiatic horses that the ancient Samurai rode were very small. Mostly they rode TO the battle, not IN the battle, though some of them rode the horses and shot arrows.


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## gottatrot

Hopefully I will be forgiven for posting too much. Went a month without talking about horses...it kind of builds up and has to get out.

Not sure if I mentioned that Hero has been turned out with two geldings since he came to our barn. Leo is a little bossy but not bad, and Buddy is sweet and docile. Since the three have been together, Hero has been getting chunks of hide taken off regularly by Leo. 

Before my trip, I mentioned that perhaps Hero would do better turned out with other horses such as Nala and Amore. The barn owner brought this up to Nala's owner, who was reluctant so he stayed where he was. 

When I came home I saw multiple new scrapes and hair missing from Hero. Now that I am in charge of Hero's fate, I asked again if we could try Hero with the mares. Apparently, the issue is that Hero is rather cuddly and Leo will take none of that nonsense. 

The first night we put Hero out with Amore and Nala, there was some serious nose-sniffing and then everyone just started grazing. Today was the second full day together, and when I arrived at the barn Hero and Nala were standing side by side inside one of the shelters. Amore had giant gobs of grass and slobber all over her. She seems to take the grooming without protest, so it looks like Hero will be far happier with the mares. Leo will probably be happier too. Hero seems to like to be between the two mares. So far they both tell him softly what to do and he says, "Yes, ma'am!"








@bsms was discussing bitless bridles. My friend has been sending me info on the Myler theory of tongue pressure and how it affects horses. Somehow I've never really read through or thought about this much. There could have been a long thread about this on the forum but I did a search and couldn't find one. 

Anyway, their theory is that the reason horses can have issues with a single-joint snaffle is not due to it hitting the roof of the mouth as some have thought (and I don't believe happens), but rather because of the way it puts pressure on the tongue and causes the horse to pull it back in the mouth. They talk a lot about the horse's airway and ability to swallow. My thought is since horses mainly breathe through the nose, any dislike would be primarily about pressure and the inability to swallow. They do have a good point about how much more painful it is to push on your own tongue rather than on the gums behind your molars, and say horses would much prefer bar pressure to tongue pressure.

This is interesting to think about for me. I know Halla quite preferred her Myler bit with a slight port to any others. I'm thinking about getting a Myler snaffle with a large port to see if Hero likes having more room for and less pressure on the tongue. I feel it's kind of backwards (if it is true that horses evade tongue pressure) to start the horses in bits with less tongue relief and move toward ports as the horse is trained. When Myler talks about level 3, they say "for trained horses." But supposedly, isn't the ideal to start horses out softly? Then why wouldn't we start with ports and add the tongue pressure if the horse needed more correction and didn't listen? These are some new things for me to experiment with.


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## horseluvr2524

Well, I guess the one upside to weird pregnancy dreams preventing me from sleeping is that I can catch up on your journal :lol:

So fun reading about your adventures! It must have been amazing to see Japan. The go kart bit was hilarious. Reminds me of the Japan I got to know reading manga as a kid.

Yay! Rascal/Hero is yours! I'm going to smugly say that I called it from the start :razz: I like the name Hero. Very cute and I think it suits him. I think you are going to enjoy a horse that has good brakes. I'm at least curious to see how future rides/training will work out.

Now to try to go back to sleep. Hopefully the "dairy farm spy" dream does not return. I'm not kidding. The dream was something about owning a couple dairy cows, and interacting with an AI, and some spy type things happening. I get the weirdest pregnancy dreams and they are nothing like what the typical themes are for weird pregnancy dreams. I swear this kid is already a major, extreme nerd like dad. I may have to deal with a house decorated in star wars fashion. Well, I'll decorate my barn however I want :lol:


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## egrogan

I am certainly no bitting expert, but Fizz has been much more comfortable in the Myler that you pictured (I could go back and look at my receipt, but I’m fairly sure it was the MB36 mouthpiece, and I went with eggbutt). Prior to that she’d brace her shoulders and throw her nose up when you asked her to halt or turn, but she became much softer after the switch to that.


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## Hondo

Forgiven...............!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I've been thinking for awhile about what his new name should be and I'm leaning toward Heroic. It reminds me of Heraldic, the famous endurance horse, and would be something to live up to.


Heraldic, while an amazing athlete, is a [email protected]@ss on the ground and especially under saddle - certainly not someone you want Hero to model his behavior after. 

Congrats on it being official. I think 'Hero' is a much better label to live up to than Rascal!


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## Knave

🙂 I can imagine the withdrawal of not talking horses for so long! 

You have motivated me by changing Rascal to Hero. I have a newer horse we purchased for a family horse... he wasn’t broke but his personality was supposed to suite. It did not, as he was extremely difficult, and I was ready to sell him when I decided to give him another chance to work out with a different goal in mind. 

Now he is my horse, and I thought you had the best idea. So he also got a name change for a fresh start. It definitely seems to be helping my mind. 🙂


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## bsms

The US Cavalry taught tongue pressure is gentler than bar pressure. That sounds reasonable, except horses don't seem to use reason. It seems certain options just match a particular horse and rider (and riding style). So I have Bandit in a Dr Cooks (and may try an Orbitless with him). Trooper is in a single joint snaffle, and Cowboy is using the solid shank curb that Bandit used to use. Mia was best in a Billy Allen curb, but also did very well in a Waterford. And now is ridden in a bosal...

If there is a common theme, I'm missing it.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> certain options just match a particular horse and rider (and riding style)


That's the reason I like Cook's. My riding style occasionally degenerates into holding on to the reins for dear life and limb. I don't need to freak him into an even harder running fit with painful bit pressure.

Others with more refined riding skills have a wider range of choices


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Yay! Rascal/Hero is yours! I'm going to smugly say that I called it from the start :razz:


You did. :smile: Funny to hear about your crazy dreams. Nerds are great. I think some of us on the forum are horse nerds.
@Knave, what did you name your horse? 



> (@phantomhorse13) Heraldic, while an amazing athlete, is a [email protected]@ss on the ground and especially under saddle - certainly not someone you want Hero to model his behavior after.


Very interesting. I've noticed how many of the great athletes have "issues" that most people would not like very much. When I saw Hickford jump he bolted off after many of the jumps, although he cleared them all beautifully. It highlights to me that everything does not just come down to expensive training, because some of the top level horses with these behaviors have had multiple good trainers. 

I think ultimately what bit or bitless the horse likes is up to the horse. I'd like to find more clues about what is most likely to be tolerated, but have found that things like a mechanical hackamore being harsh are not necessarily true. 
The Myler people say the mouthpiece is about the horse and the shanks/sidepieces are about the rider's hands. I don't find that true because some horses need more convincing/leverage to listen, such as Halla. Supposedly a rider with slower, softer hands can ride with shanks, and a rider with less finesse can use a snaffle. But the rider's hands do not dictate if the horse will stop on a 1:1 pressure, and sometimes I think it might come down to the rider's upper body strength and how the horse feels the cue. 

If I push on my own tongue and gums, I find that my tongue is more sensitive.


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## Knave

I am calling him Keno. It has done wonders to help me look at him in a new light and I truly think it is helping me to get past some hang ups I had with him.

Plus, my mother has this superstition that a horse’s name effects their personality. We called him Eeyore, and he was very ‘put upon.’


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I am calling him Keno. It has done wonders to help me look at him in a new light and I truly think it is helping me to get past some hang ups I had with him.
> 
> Plus, my mother has this superstition that a horse’s name effects their personality. We called him Eeyore, and he was very ‘put upon.’


Keno is a fine name. Several of my good friends also believe that horses' names affect their personalities, and I have found nothing to disprove the theory. 

*******************************************************************************
I'm doing something a little crazy, which is why I'm not asking advice from the Forum on whether I should do it. Especially since Thursday we had a wonderful beach ride with Hero and Nala, but still Hero threw in one monster buck that would have unseated me had I not been well off his back in two point at the time.

We have a 16 year old girl who has been doing barn chores for a couple of years. Off and on I've thought about how obviously she is working at the barn because she has the horse sickness, but first Amore retired, then Halla was too much horse, then retired, then sick. After Halla died, I told this girl I was hoping to get a horse that would be suitable for her to ride. Of course I got Hero instead. With a habit of bucking that may be difficult to eradicate. 

So today I gave our barn girl a riding lesson (free, of course, knowing my horse is not the best lesson horse). I'm not totally careless; as I suspected Hero was far easier to give a lesson on than those Arabs that tend to shoot out from underneath beginners unexpectedly. He walked on the lunge (yawn) and trotted (groan). Our barn girl has ridden quite a lot in her life, western. As I suspected, she had great balance, good posture and could probably ride through a lot bareback. But no real security in her lower leg, so was unable to get off the horse's back and balance yet. Also she had only ever neck reined. With Hero's big trot, she managed to get her butt down into the saddle, but her efforts to stay with the horse meant her weight came out of her legs. It can work in a western saddle, but without a deep seat and solid fenders, if a horse is really going to spin out from under you or buck, you will get unbalanced. Very difficult to explain the feel to someone, however.

Probably it seemed like I was a real task master. However, I prefer to teach the nitty gritty in about 3 lessons and then get to riding outside the arena. So I checked to see if she could hop off cleanly real fast (she could), and taught her an emergency stop, how to hold her reins and direct rein, showed her how to shove her hand down the pommel if necessary, and mainly we worked on getting her weight down through her legs. I'd like her to have some basic posting also before we go out riding. Since I have permission to ride several horses at the barn, I will most likely ask one of their owners if my barn girl could ride one of those horses (not Nala of course) as long as we were going out together. I think Penny or Sizzler would be great intermediate mounts for her, and they are a couple notches below the skill needed for Hero at this point. If they are wary of having the barn girl on their horse, we can try simple rides around the barn and I could hop off and lead Hero if he got worked up. 

***************************************************************************
The other puzzle Hero is giving me right now is that he has a sticky spot. You can put a halter on him, lead him out of the field, lead him away from the barn, and then about ten feet away from the barn at the top of the hill he gets stuck. 

Apparently, Nala's rider had an epic battle with him here one day when she was riding. It included backing him for quite some distance. 
Which is one reason why I really try to avoid epic battles with horses. In our minds, we fight the battle, we win, the horse says, "you win," and then we have solved the problem. What really often happens is that we fight the battle, we win, and the horse now sees that place as a place of unpleasantness. 

If I went into my kitchen and fought an epic battle there, I'm pretty sure the next time I went into the kitchen my body would release some strong chemicals in case another epic battle was about to occur. I'd have some emotions, maybe anxiety. 

I've been thinking about this in order to make a plan for Hero. The first time he stalled out, I got him going after a minute by sending him forward with the lead rope. But it's still happening each time. My new plan is to bring him to the place where he gets stuck, and feed him some treats there. Then instead of trying to go past it, I'll bring him back to his pen. The next time I'll feed him a couple feet farther down the hill. If my theory about negative emotions is right, it should work to change those for positive emotions in that area. Maybe we'll also just spend some time hanging out there too.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Several of my good friends also believe that horses' names affect their personalities, and I have found nothing to disprove the theory.


Yet another great and instructive post!

I did want to post a thought on names though. Perhaps a name could affect how a horse is treated? I think it could, and of course how the horse is treated will affect their personalities.


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## horseluvr2524

I agree that 'epic battles', while sometimes necessary, are more often than not unproductive. Thinking back, I've made much more progress with horses when we took things in slow, baby steps, rather than battling it out to have it happen all at once.

The two haulers with the shipping company, and myself, had an epic battle with Shan on the trailer. I was so embarrassed and really was not expecting her to be any problem, because she is usually so good about loading on any kind of trailer... that is when she is walking forwards. She's been trained to back out of a trailer into sunlight, and trained to walk forward into a dark trailer. She has never been trained to back into a dark corner, as was required on the hauler's trailer (head to head setup). We didn't have dark corner situations in the desert. We didn't have indoor wash stalls, or even indoor barns. So backing into dark corners wasn't really a thing. It totally just never occurred to me, so I didn't spend any time preparing her for it. I felt terrible, made me feel like I really failed her, because I know she doesn't tolerate being shoved and forced into things, whereas most horses will. Most horses don't have Shan's stubbornness and very, very strong will.

She walked up the ramp fine, as expected, but when they went to turn her in the aisle and back her into the stall, she said "heck no" and tried to yank the lead out of their hands and run off the trailer. It was not a pretty fight. They had to put the stud chain on her. She started trying to bite. Eventually she just planted her feet and refused to move. It took about twenty minutes for the three of us to get her in there. At the end, they had to literally pick up one of her legs and move it back. She was just frozen. Have I said how terrible I felt? Once she was cross tied in with the bar up and a hay net though, she was fine. Eating happily like there was nothing at all wrong.

The haulers were as gentle as they could be with her, given the circumstance. They had to load her up two more times due to layovers during that trip. My guess is that those may have been even worse than the first time. They told my new BO when Shan arrived in Ohio that my horse was kind of a butthole (probably said the other word but this is what BO told me lol). I felt bad, but totally unexpected circumstance. At least in Ohio I will have opportunity to work with her on the "back into dark spaces" thing.

All of that to say, while sometimes necessary, battling a horse is usually not productive.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...With Hero's big trot, she managed to get her butt down into the saddle, but her efforts to stay with the horse meant her weight came out of her legs. It can work in a western saddle, but without a deep seat and solid fenders, if a horse is really going to spin out from under you or buck, you will get unbalanced....
> 
> ...In our minds, we fight the battle, we win, the horse says, "you win," and then we have solved the problem. What really often happens is that we fight the battle, we win, and the horse now sees that place as a place of unpleasantness...


Has she ever tried standing in the stirrups (what used to be called two-point)? I find two point at a walk difficult, but it is an easy way to work on stabilizing my lower leg.

I've come to have mixed feelings about the "stirrup-centric" approach to riding taught by Littauer and Chamberlin. It might have helped keep me alive learning to ride Mia, but probably made me too "stirrup-centric" in my riding. I think it led to my worst habit in riding - bracing in the stirrups. And you need SOMETHING to stop the motion if you can slide across a slick saddle like a skater on ice!

I can't remember the last time Bandit reacted with more than a couple of quick steps sideways or a sudden halt. Add in the Abetta with its built in grip and the bitless bridle, and it is almost like trying to learn how to ride all over. I don't know if experienced riders ever feel that way. It is like a door has opened to a different room in the house of riding. I'm standing in the doorway wondering if I should enter. If you have stayed safe doing X, it is hard to try Y....

Also, I strongly agree with the effect a battle of wills has on the horse. Some people report excellent results by forcing the horse to submit, that the horse then learns its submission makes it safe. I think there are horses that approach works well on. I think Trooper and Cowboy would do OK with that approach. But Bandit and Mia did not. They needed explanations. And Mia could outlast me in any fight. So it was doubly bad with her...she'd WIN the fight! Although, oddly enough, she didn't seem to think of it as her winning. I think she thought of it as her managing to keep BOTH of us safe. It was as though she would say, "_Don't worry! You screwed up, but I compensated and got us both out of there in one piece..._"


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## Hondo

The talk about battle brings to mind the recent Equus article on "Pop Outs". Trying to look for, notice, and reward positive behavior rather than looking for negative behavior is something I will be attempting to train myself in.

Curious thing about the A-B test though. With me, the horse with no forelock in B popped right out. But I had to go back to A three times before I saw the forelock. Maybe I'm wired wrong. Could be the reason I often ask a clerk where a certain item can be found when I'm standing right in front of and facing it.


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## SueC

So much more interesting than the mainstream discussion, everyone!  I guess this is where the nerds hang out? :charge:


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> So much more interesting than the mainstream discussion, everyone!  I guess this is where the nerds hang out? :charge:


Oh yes, the nerds are here. Those of us who are told "You are thinking about it too much." "Why make it complicated?" and etc.



> (*@Hondo*): Perhaps a name could affect how a horse is treated? I think it could, and of course how the horse is treated will affect their personalities.


So perhaps we name horses more to shape our own behavior, which shapes theirs...not sure how we could separate out which influences which. I do know my friend's horse named Boo became far less spooky after his name was changed to Booker. Someone I know had a horse named Brat...who was a bit bratty. 

The article about the "Pop out" effect was very good. For those who don't get Equus, it talked about how humans notice things that are extra (and probably horses do too) in a scene, such as a cat standing in a field, but naturally overlook things that are absent. Amore, who is often different from the norm does break the rule. If we ride by a black log, she will tense up and look at it until she adapts. But if you take the black log away, she will also tense up and notice that the scenery behind where the log was is now visible. So maybe it's not that she notices an "absence," but rather that she is sensitive enough that the scenery where the log used to be now "pops out" at her.

What the article highlighted is that humans notice bad behavior (it "pops out" at us) but don't notice when a horse is exhibiting good behavior, so we fail to praise it or let the horse know it is what we want. So we try to train the horse by an absence of correction when they are doing well, but it may not be as apparent to the horse that what they are doing is what we want unless we recognize good behavior and reward it.

I think I tend to follow this rule at least some of the time. For example, if a horse picks up a trot on the lunge, if they stay in a consistent working trot that I like, I will use my voice to say "Good, good," and then shortly after stop the horse and reward them. As a horse learns my good voice tones and bad ones, I go for longer periods before giving the reward, sort of like using a clicker I guess.
So yes, when Hero bucked hard the other day I pulled his head right up and smacked him loudly on the neck and used a harsh voice. But later when he was cantering nicely, I was making the rein very loose and saying, "good, good" in a pleased tone. To me it seems obvious the horse must differentiate between wanted and unwanted behaviors, and for me the voice is the easiest tool to use. 

*@horseluvr2524*: I would think that most horses have not been taught to back onto horse trailers. Or to have the finesse needed to back around tight corners. I'm not sure how you could have guessed your horse would be loaded in a non-typical fashion. It seems to me like one of those things that you'd never think to prepare for. Such as when my friends brought their young horse to the vet clinic where he was supposed to walk onto a floor scale which was a dark square on a brightly painted green floor. The horse did not wish to step into that hole and could not understand why the humans were trying to push him down there. Or my friend who learned her horse had never been taught to trot alongside a human, just walk when she was leading him and trying to cross a narrow highway bridge before a semi truck got there. Now she teaches all her horses to trot on the lead, and I do too. :smile:



> (*@Bsms*):Has she ever tried standing in the stirrups (what used to be called two-point)? I find two point at a walk difficult, but it is an easy way to work on stabilizing my lower leg.I've come to have mixed feelings about the "stirrup-centric" approach to riding taught by Littauer and Chamberlin. It might have helped keep me alive learning to ride Mia, but probably made me too "stirrup-centric" in my riding. I think it led to my worst habit in riding - bracing in the stirrups. And you need SOMETHING to stop the motion if you can slide across a slick saddle like a skater on ice!


This is something I was trying to get her to work on.
To me it is so crucial to have the secure seat coming from the legs.
What I find difficult is trying to differentiate to someone the difference between having the weight down the leg versus bracing in the stirrups. I was thinking about it today...it has something to do with the knee, I think, but still it is difficult to pinpoint other than by feel.
What is hard to explain is how you must have the weight down your leg, which results in weight in the stirrup. But at the same time, if your stirrup broke off, you should still be there in the same position. So is that actually stirrup-centric? If you drop your stirrups, you should be able to post in almost the same fashion as with them - just a tiny bit more muscle required. If you lose a stirrup, you should continue on in balance but still want to pick it right up in order to have the best security should the horse dart sideways. 

When Halla would leap into her flying lead changes, sometimes a stirrup would come off my foot. But that is different than the insecure leg, which would not keep the stirrup or the seat through any of the flying changes. If the stirrup came off, I would wait for the right moment in the stride when my weight was less through that leg (stirrup or no stirrup), and then the stirrup would swing back toward my foot and I would find the timing to slide my foot back in. Sometimes it would take three strides. Then I'd put a little more weight down my leg so it wouldn't happen again. The weight required is more if the horse's push upward is more forceful. 

But how do you put more weight down the leg? You always weigh the same and you're sitting on the horse. But as the horse becomes more forceful you have to put a little more angle in your joints so more of your weight ends up down low. Behind the calf and lower thigh. See, so difficult to explain. I'm not sure if it is clear at all. It's not like you want to stand up higher off the horse or anything. 



> (*@Bsms*):
> I can't remember the last time Bandit reacted with more than a couple of quick steps sideways or a sudden halt. Add in the Abetta with its built in grip and the bitless bridle, and it is almost like trying to learn how to ride all over. I don't know if experienced riders ever feel that way. It is like a door has opened to a different room in the house of riding. I'm standing in the doorway wondering if I should enter. If you have stayed safe doing X, it is hard to try Y....


I feel like I have to learn to ride every horse I'm riding seriously. Whatever gear works for them, it always has a different feel from when it's used on another horse. Their individual size, the scope of the gaits, smoothness, bounciness, tempo, center of gravity, how quick they respond, it's all new territory. In one horse a saddle might feel secure, on another like I'm going to topple over the shoulder. I think X and Y are called variables for a reason, and with horses there seem to be few constants. So I keep experimenting.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> What the article highlighted is that humans notice bad behavior (it "pops out" at us) but don't notice when a horse is exhibiting good behavior, so we fail to praise it or let the horse know it is what we want. So we try to train the horse by an absence of correction when they are doing well, but it may not be as apparent to the horse that what they are doing is what we want unless we recognize good behavior and reward it.


I do a lot of research on brand new teachers- and interestingly, this behavior also distinguishes the new teachers who are going to be successful quickly from the ones who are going to struggle. When you have your radar up constantly for kids (or horses!) who are "doing it wrong" or "trying to pull one over on you," you're missing the chance to form a relationship built on trust and working together towards a shared goal.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Oh yes, the nerds are here. Those of us who are told "You are thinking about it too much." "Why make it complicated?" and etc.


Yes, because the earth is obviously flat. _Obviously_! You're just thinking too much. ;-) You heretic. 


I have a favourite poem on the importance of the big picture, which you may also enjoy - of course, you may already know it...


*The Blind Men and the Elephant 
*(John Godfrey Saxe)

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined, 
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind), 
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind. 

The _First_ approach'd the Elephant, 
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, 
At once began to bawl: 
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!" 

The _Second_, feeling of the tusk, 
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp? 
To me 'tis mighty clear, 
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!" 

The _Third_ approach'd the animal, 
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, 
Thus boldly up and spake: 
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!" 

The _Fourth_ reached out an eager hand, 
And felt about the knee: 
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,- 
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant 
Is very like a tree!" 

The _Fifth_, who chanced to touch the ear, 
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; 
Deny the fact who can, 
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!" 

The _Sixth_ no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope, 
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope, 
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!" 

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long, 
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong, 
Though each was partly in the right, 
And all were in the wrong! 

MORAL

So, oft in theologic wars 
The disputants, I ween, 
Rail on in utter ignorance 
Of what each other mean; 
_And prate about an Elephant 
Not one of them has seen! _

:cheers:


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## gottatrot

Very interesting about the teachers, and also very true about only seeing our part of the picture/debate.
@bsms had some great points about riding seats and I wanted to put my reply from his journal here so I can think more about it all. Discussion is such an amazing tool for thought and new breakthroughs. We can just get stuck in our own mind and if someone can show us what another part of the elephant looks like, or even add a description of the elephant that is different from what we call it, it can change the picture for us.



bsms said:


> PS: All this assumes there are multiple good ways to ride. I think that is so obviously true as to be axiomatic. Unfortunately, many riders believe their approach is the ONLY approach.


Thanks for the good post. I think you just helped me figure out what the difference is between a secure seat and one that is less secure. I hope you will not mind some musings if I type and work through this mentally.

I agree, there are many good ways to ride (many bad ways too). My personal search and teaching of those I want to keep safe is not about what is "correct." Except it is, because I think what is correct is what does not injure you. So however you do it, you must not torque your joints or use your body in a way that puts it under destructive pressure. If your joints are not good enough (thinking of those with bad knees) to two point or ever get off the horse's back, you probably shouldn't be trying to jump or gallop, but I'm not saying you can't because with the right horse and tack, you could do it safely while staying on the horse's back. Probably one that doesn't buck or dart out from under you.

This picture was on FB today:








People were saying this guy looks so relaxed he could be eating cereal or chatting on the phone. To me it is a good picture of an independent seat. But back to my point, is it really his lower leg that is keeping him secure? Or is it his hips that are giving him the stance over the horse? His lower leg appears to sit on the horse, but really he could have any angle depending on how his hips flexed in relation to the width of the horse, his knees and toe could point outward and he could be as secure. He also could have his stirrups shorter or longer. All he really needs is for his hips to adapt to any balance changes in his core, and if his hips are loose, his leg stance can follow to balance him either by swinging forward, back or to the side. 

For some reason when I heard that "your security is in your lower leg," it helped me attach the whole leg to my hip. But I read through your explanations and the truth that @tinyliny said about the limp rag, and I think the issue is the disconnection of the rider when they tense parts of the leg. 

What you say about being able to swing your leg out, back or forward is important, I think. That is where I feel people lose the security, because they don't keep the leg connected from the hip. I think I'm just understanding that the knee flexion, if you have your stirrups shorter is important _only_ because stiffness there can create a block between your hip and the ability to move your leg. 
When I am two pointing, the crucial thing is that my hip is connected to my stirrup so I can move my leg wherever it needs to go to keep the balance point. The reason the lower leg is on the horse is to help with the balance that is coming from the hip. 

You can sit on your hips and have decent balance. Especially at the walk, trot or a nice canter. You can't sit on your knees or your feet alone. You have to keep the leg connected or not use the leg at all. Otherwise it will create imbalance. It must be a line that is not stiff or else it does create a catapult instead of connection. Moving the leg off the horse too wide and pressing on the stirrups tends to create that stiffness. Laying the leg on the horse helps keep a dynamic connection.

Hopefully some of you can point out whatever flaws you see in this line of thinking.


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## Hondo

I'll have to comment that is one person in the picture that really looks to me like he really would make a soft comfortable landing on his feet if the horse suddenly evaporated from under him.

Since the development of the new saddle with Hondo's resulting increased exuberance, I've shortened my stirrups considerably and moved them back a bunch also in order to get off his (and my) back a little more quickly.

I doubt that I'll be doing very much more than walking but I'm starting to listen and think more about this secure seat business. I need a position to protect me from lower back whiplash when he makes a short 10 foot bolt.

I'm still feeling it three days later.


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## bsms

I suspect when the horse hit the ground, the rider would momentarily looked like he'd been slugged.

When riding Bandit today, I was thinking both about your comments and @tinyliny 's. I think brace means rigid, which is certainly how I've covered a number of miles on Mia. No give in my legs. Not positioned so my legs COULD absorb shock, and far to rigid to actually absorb shock. Bad riding, honestly. It may have been all I could do at that time, but it wasn't helping me to achieve my goals.

If I shorten my legs too much, I find it hard to move my legs around independently and freely. I think of it as ball bearings in my hips, so my seat is seated (or just a little above the seat) but my legs can move freely to apply momentary, fluid pressure against the stirrups. While needed.

Good riders can obviously compensate. **** Francis didn't go flying off of Devon Loch when the horse did something totally unexpected:








​ 
But I don't have that level of experience or athleticism. I need help from my stirrups, my saddle, etc. ANY help I can get! Heck, **** Francis in that picture looks like he could step off Devon Loch and just stroll along beside the sliding horse! That is SOOO not me!

"_That is where I feel people lose the security, because they don't keep the leg connected from the hip. I think I'm just understanding that the knee flexion, if you have your stirrups shorter is important only because stiffness there can create a block between your hip and the ability to move your leg._"

Now that you've said it, it makes sense to me. At 60, often taking Motrin BEFORE a ride, I just can't do what **** Francis did - but if one can, then by all means!

I sometimes think of Bandit as an 850 lb surfboard. My legs need to move around so I can stay balanced in the stirrups (if I have them). And if not, then having my legs aligned as if I did have stirrups still seems to give me my most balanced seat.

Although I like to think of myself as a western rider, I also like this:

"_The verb 'to sit' should be eliminated from our vocabulary where riding is concerned, for the idea it conveys is intrinsically misleading. *Were it not for its indecorous connotation the word 'perch' would more aptly suggest the position the rider should assume*..._" - Riding Reflections, Piero Santini, 1933


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## Hondo

I'm going to comment, as I often do to the displeasure of friends, that I am a staunch disbeliever in pain medication other than to attain more comfort for resting or sleeping.

During exercise or any movement I like to think of pain as my physical therapist consultant as in, "Don't do it that way! That puts pressure on the part that needs to heal and interferes with healing. Do it this way. Doesn't that feel better?"

When I do something to one of my knees that I should not have done, my friend pain guides me in the restoration and deters me from aggravating the knee further.

Unrequested lecture over! 

Edit: I like the sit/perch comparison.


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## Fimargue

I have such a pain in my lower back if my stirrups are too short. Also a saddle makes a huge difference. When I'm riding in a saddle where the stirrups are too far forward, I struggle. The best for me is stirrups back and long leg - and an active upright seat. 

I once did the mistake of relaxing too much on my 'Queen of running without warning' mare, had a (too big) Barefoot treeless, and why, didn't she spook because of a person behind a fence and leap forward, unseating me. Thought I lost my mare that day, was sure she would get hit by a car. I searched for her everywhere and my heart sank when I saw she hadn't gone home either. Then I went to walk on the big road just outside the property and when she heard my footsteps, she came to peek out of the field where she had taken refuge in.


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## Fimargue

@horseluvr2524, try not to feel to bad about that loading incident. Like Gottatrot said, who would have thought that they would back her up in the trailer? Not in this part of the world. Even my mare who really is sweet and cooperative, would not have gone up without a word of resistance. Two strange men and getting her up in the trailer in a way that she is not used to. She already acts like I'm about to sell her if my OH is there to prepare her with me for a ride, or just occupy her - and she knows him well. One person horse much.


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## ChasingDreams

I don’t contribute here often, but I LOVE the discussions in this journal. 

I’ve years of experience, but most of my “mentors” have been very old-cowboy, show the horse who’s boss types and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) that style is just not conductive to my personality. I’ve always been more “gentle persuasion” person. But, I don’t fall so far into the opposite side of the spectrum with the horse charmers either. I think boundaries are important, especially when horse and rider safety are involved.

I feel like the folks that hangout here are very like-minded in that aspect, and I walk away with something (or multiple things)to chew on every time I catch up on these entries.

So, I guess what I’m trying to say is thank you for your perspectives, as I’ve found many to be helpful in my current horse ventures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SueC

ChasingDreams said:


> I don’t contribute here often, but I LOVE the discussions in this journal.
> 
> I’ve years of experience, but most of my “mentors” have been very old-cowboy, show the horse who’s boss types and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) that style is just not conductive to my personality. I’ve always been more “gentle persuasion” person. But, I don’t fall so far into the opposite side of the spectrum with the horse charmers either. I think boundaries are important, especially when horse and rider safety are involved.
> 
> I feel like the folks that hangout here are very like-minded in that aspect, and I walk away with something (or multiple things)to chew on every time I catch up on these entries.
> 
> So, I guess what I’m trying to say is thank you for your perspectives, as I’ve found many to be helpful in my current horse ventures.


HF has needed a thread like this one. On any internet forum on pretty much any mainstream thread topic, flat earthers tend to get together to hunt in packs, and this soon derails many innovative and thoughtful threads giving alternative solutions to accepted dogma, or alternative ways of thinking about things. This becomes time-wasting and tedious, and it's nice to be able to have these sorts of discussions in a friendly environment where people are truly interested in learning from each other, rather than thinking they have arrived at the pinnacle of wisdom and that they have nothing left to learn.

Heartfelt thanks to all the contributors here! :dance-smiley05:


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## SueC

I'm going to chime in on the discussion of seat and riding. I can be a little case study of how we all bring our little postural problems and pre-injuries to our riding, and how that influences how we can get comfortable on a horse, and explains why different people are going to have different preferences.

I'm one of those tall people whose primary postural issue is remembering to stand up straight, but relaxed, with the head up - and not let shoulders stoop or the head hang down. Pilates more than anything helped me to do that, and built core strength and coordination beautifully - now that I no longer live in town and we finished building our house, I just have to remember to do it at home! :rofl: And then perhaps I can get back to that point I was at before we moved to a farm and built a house and all that. However, I now have the mat out in the middle of the living area all day long, to do routine stretches - bend the spine one way, then the other - just cat stretches and child position in alternation a couple of times a day, for starters, and then getting back into an actual 30-minute workout with all the hard stuff like hundreds.

I initially started Pilates to keep a lower back injury from my early 20s under control, and for this it is excellent. I've got some ligaments between the pelvis and the spine that got stretched too far during the injury, and this predisposes me to follow-on lumbar injuries, and if I don't do Pilates regularly I end up moving the wrong way at some point and my spine will go into total torsion for a couple of days plus, not fun! The good thing is that it kind of forces me into doing a system of exercises which will also stand me in good stead for preventing more injuries and for remaining flexible in my old age - something I have to think about, having arrived at my mid-40s. Because once you don't use it, it's so easy to lose it...

So I actually think that a lot of the work of being balanced and flexible and getting comfortable on a horse starts with stuff we do off a horse, and is good for all sorts of other things.

I've got a couple of riding snapshots to share to show the evolution of my personal postural challenges. Here's some riding photos of me as a kid, in the gangly stage between 10 and 13:











This is just over a year into starting to ride. Hunched shoulders, head too forward on the spine, just like on the ground at that age. I was learning to jump, so I went bitless to avoid accidental jolting of the horse's mouth while learning to balance myself over jumps. This is Dame du Buisson, a French Trotter mare who's the great-grandmother of my current riding horse Sunsmart, and this photo was taken in Germany.

Also the toes were really turned out at this point, and that's because in growing long bones really quickly, I ended up with patellae (knee caps) that faced absurdly inwards, and was basically knock-kneed for most of my middle childhood. Riding actually really counteracted that problem for me; the riding itself was very effective physiotherapy for that particular problem.

Some more old jumping photos - the next ones on the mare's stablemate Mingo, out of a German Trotter and by a Bavarian Warmblood stallion:










That's such an "OMG" facial expression on me, but at least the horse really knew how to jump! :rofl: I remember that this height felt to little me like jumping over a house. You can also see here that after approaching the jump from circle-left, I kind of forgot to rebalance myself in the saddle before take-off. 

The next one was a little better in that respect:










I personally don't view the loose reins as an issue here, since the main thing is for the learner not to interfere with the horse's head or hold on via the mouth/nose of the horse when starting to go over jumps. The horses are used to jumping and don't need supporting cues via the reins over stuff that's basic for them, and it's good to sort out one thing at a time when riding: Learn to balance first, then sort out rein contact over jumps later, when you won't be tempted to use them like waterskiing lines.

Here's a side shot on the mare the following year in Australia:










The toes are starting to come in towards a better position, but as a riding instructor down here likes to say to ladies: "Headlights on high beam please!" The hunching wasn't solved till later. I think my stirrup leathers should have been longer; I'm getting crowded in that saddle and it's really pushing me up the cantle and stopping me from sitting deep and relaxed.

Fast-forward to my late 30s, when I was doing intensive Pilates classes twice weekly:










That's Sunsmart, in his first year after coming off the harness track, discovering the wider world with me. We had him agisted in Albany at this point, about a year before we bought our farm in Redmond, and I got to do lots of activities with other riders. I was really pleased with his progress at his early stage; he had been terribly upside-down as a harness horse. I'm ultra comfortable on the horse here, feeling relaxed and in a far better posture than as a beginner rider. The horse too is relaxed and happy.

But actually, this was on my old saddle, a Bates Caprilli All-Purpose, good in its day but also a bit too small for me as a rider. So I updated to an Ascot Romana All-Purpose shortly after that, and had it properly fitted to my horse.



This saddle has a lovely deep seat and is nice and wide in front of the rider's thigh, which means you can hang on in unexpected emergency braking situations just by sitting deep and maintaining gentle contact with your legs. You don't need to do a nutcracker impersonation to stay on the horse at times of rapid deceleration.

I'm reasonably happy with my posture on this one, except that my spine is hyper-curved - too much lumbar curvature, and too much thoracic curvature the other way - and that's because I wasn't doing Pilates classes at that point. So for me, good posture on or off the horse = do your Pilates.

Like @*Fimargue* , I can't abide sitting cramped-up in a saddle and veer towards a basic dressage position even on trails - I do not shorten my stirrups going from arena to trails. I also like riding bareback, which helps to develop the long relaxed stretchy seat position. If you don't relax and make your legs long bareback, your chances of making acquaintance with the ground before you actually intend to dismount increase drastically. So bareback is like the acupuncture of riding - it forces you to relax, or you'll get hurt! :rofl:



And, as you can see, I don't have my elbows strictly at my sides. I have wide shoulders and if I force my elbows in, it results in tension rather than a relaxed posture. So I go with a relaxed posture that suits my own anatomy. And we all have to work out what that looks like for us!

Very best wishes to all of you, your families and your four-legs!


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## gottatrot

@SueC: I love your post, your self analysis is great and seems very accurate to me.

As I've aged I finally have come to realize that the things I wished to change when I was younger are part of being a unique person and a) why should we wish to be the same generic "attractive" human being, b) everyone has challenges no matter how they are put together, and c) some things I saw as detrimental when younger I now view as assets.

One thing I wished when I was young was that I could be taller and more elegant. Now I understand the growing pains and posture issues my tall friends went through were no picnic. My growth was at the speed of a glacier and I never had one twinge of pain. 
You appear to have been a good rider even at a young age, but I agree that you have learned so much and are a much better rider nowadays.



SueC said:


> So I actually think that a lot of the work of being balanced and flexible and getting comfortable on a horse starts with stuff we do off a horse, and is good for all sorts of other things.


I agree. We also have to use good body mechanics based on our own body rather than following instructions to a T from those who don't know our body. I've heard about some riding instructors causing physical injuries to students by insisting they hold certain "correct" postures.


SueC said:


> This is Dame du Buisson, a French Trotter mare who's the great-grandmother of my current riding horse Sunsmart, and this photo was taken in Germany.


That is incredible that you now own this horse's offspring. Very neat.



SueC said:


> I personally don't view the loose reins as an issue here, since the main thing is for the learner not to interfere with the horse's head or hold on via the mouth/nose of the horse when starting to go over jumps. The horses are used to jumping and don't need supporting cues via the reins over stuff that's basic for them, and it's good to sort out one thing at a time when riding: Learn to balance first, then sort out rein contact over jumps later, when you won't be tempted to use them like waterskiing lines.


I think most horses would prefer to jump on a loose rein. Of course, over a fast and tricky course the horse is going to need some quick direction at times so you need to at least be near the contact. I've been able to ride some horses that were trustworthy like that over jumps. My own Arabs never got past being insecure over low jumps and would sometimes land and dart off to one side, so I'd have to keep the reins short enough to redirect quickly when needed, while also not catching their mouth. Tricky sometimes.

I love the way you look riding Sunsmart and how you have him moving. I also like my stirrups quite long, and really only need to get far enough off the horse's back to keep from banging onto it if the horse gets rough or does something unexpected. 



SueC said:


> And, as you can see, I don't have my elbows strictly at my sides. I have wide shoulders and if I force my elbows in, it results in tension rather than a relaxed posture. So I go with a relaxed posture that suits my own anatomy. And we all have to work out what that looks like for us!


This is why I believe in following concepts rather than rules. A rule follower will think they need to have their elbows in rather than understanding the concept behind the elbows/at/sides which is keeping your core in balance and using the reins effectively. 
I notice that good riders have quite different styles sometimes and there is quite a range of correctness - yet when you watch them ride you can see the same concepts of fluidity with the horse, not interfering with the horse's balance, the independent seat are being followed. 
The good riders I know all ride with a longer stirrup unless they are actually going over a jump course.

Had a great ride on Hero today with Nala and feel like we're making some progress. One thing he did was transition from a fast canter to a slow walk when I asked him to slow, so we worked on going into a forward trot instead. Since we are not working on dressage, I prefer him to have a habit of transitioning less abruptly so I don't have to stop myself from getting shot forward in the saddle. Plus at this point I am not sure if he is changing gait or gathering himself up to buck, so I want to keep the feeling of forward.

I kept him from bucking hard, even on the deep sand and we went a little farther than before. It's hard to tell at this point if he's going to be always a bit challenging, or if he's going to get used to the work and mellow out. I figure that regardless, in a year we'll be great partners.


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## gottatrot

ChasingDreams said:


> I feel like the folks that hangout here are very like-minded in that aspect, and I walk away with something (or multiple things)to chew on every time I catch up on these entries.
> 
> So, I guess what I’m trying to say is thank you for your perspectives, as I’ve found many to be helpful in my current horse ventures.


Forgot to say in the last post...thank you for your thoughts and I appreciate you posting! I hope you will contribute your opinions when you can.


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## bsms

I'll chime in on differences rooted is something other than riding style...

"This saddle has a lovely deep seat and is nice and wide in front of the rider's thigh, which means you can hang on in unexpected emergency braking situations just by sitting deep and maintaining gentle contact with your legs." - @SueC

I did some riding in English saddles, but essentially learned to ride in an Australian saddle. This is the underside of it:








​ 
Compared to the underside of my English saddles (both Bates), it is missing the long padded area going down the front of the flap. From my reading, I think those extensions under the flap were added around 1900 to help riders use their knees to stop sliding forward. Santini in the 30s mentions liking the additional panel on the front and also liking knee rolls that were showing up on saddles then - and Santini, like the Italian school of forward riding, taught a "knee-centric" approach.

But my Australian saddle (made in India) had thigh poleys, and not much under the flap and certainly no knee rolls! The thighs could slam into the poleys if the horse stopped suddenly, but everything else was smooth leather. I learned to use my stirrups in a way that prevented my slamming into the poleys - to use my lower leg and stirrups to keep me from sliding.

















​ 
When I switched to western, I used this. Like poleys, the bucking rolls are meant for emergency situations - and were soon removed. Other than that, it is pretty much flat, polished leather where my knee goes. Really nothing I can grip with my knee, or even my thigh. Just very slick leather:








​ 
This is my 15" Abetta, not the one I use now, but while Cordura is very rough, there is obviously not much solid to use:








​ 
The Abetta DOES allow my thigh some grip, and that is changing some of how I ride. But for 10 years, I've ridden with very smooth, flat leather under thighs and with nothing to support my knee. Certainly nothing like this :eek_color: ) 








​ 
Or this:








​ 
Looking back, I see no reason why someone using such very different saddles should ride the same way. While horses remain the same, the interface between us is often the saddle. A different choice in saddles, as well as how spooky a horse we learn to ride, if we jump or not, etc - all factor in to what works. And what works is what is important!

At this point, I'd find any kind of knee block incredibly annoying. I want my leg to slide. I need my leg to slide. Freely. I use a sliding leg, from hip to heel, sliding to where the stirrup can support me. I want flat...although I still love the idea of poleys!

PS: Something I realized about Littauer. He taught jumping at the start, within the first few lessons. He used horses who knew their jobs, who could be jumped using loose reins. He didn't teach riding so riders could jump. He taught jumping so riders would learn an independent seat and balance. He taught jumping so riders could learn to ride, which is backwards from what most people do. His system of instruction had 75% of his pupils jumping 2-2.5 feet in 20 lessons. From their first time on a horse. But he did it to teach them habits that would help them riding on level ground. 

Had he been alive and here to teach me, I suspect he would have insisted I ride a different horse for 6 months, learn jumping, and THEN try progressing on Mia. And I'd bet it would have worked!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Looking back, I see no reason why someone using such very different saddles should ride the same way. While horses remain the same, the interface between us is often the saddle. A different choice in saddles, as well as how spooky a horse we learn to ride, if we jump or not, etc - all factor in to what works. And what works is what is important!


I agree. This is also why I feel it is important to find the right saddle for the horse you are riding that also matches how you are riding the horse. 

Right now I am not sure if my dressage saddle (which fits Hero) is the best saddle to use. That's because he moves a bit like a Quarter Horse, and his balance is a little downhill. I'm trying to figure out what kind of saddle will work best with that kind of balance point so I can feel more comfortable letting him out more. 

I can't and don't ride the same on him as I did on Halla. The dressage saddle was not ideal for her either, but I figured out how to work with it. I often had to stand up and keep my core balance back as she went faster. Hero is slightly downhill also, but there is also a lot more horse in front of the saddle, a thicker neck and he carries his neck lower. I think it might work better to have a different saddle with a bit more in front of my leg instead of a straight flap. 



bsms said:


> PS: Something I realized about Littauer. He taught jumping at the start, within the first few lessons. He used horses who knew their jobs, who could be jumped using loose reins. He didn't teach riding so riders could jump. He taught jumping so riders would learn an independent seat and balance. He taught jumping so riders could learn to ride, which is backwards from what most people do. His system of instruction had 75% of his pupils jumping 2-2.5 feet in 20 lessons. From their first time on a horse. But he did it to teach them habits that would help them riding on level ground.
> 
> Had he been alive and here to teach me, I suspect he would have insisted I ride a different horse for 6 months, learn jumping, and THEN try progressing on Mia. And I'd bet it would have worked!


I think Littauer had the right idea. However, something I've learned is that jumping requires that you learn a different motion or seat, but people who only jump on trained and reliable horses may not have a seat that is any more secure than someone who has never jumped. Or their method might work for going around a course but they may be less equipped for other types of riding. 
I'm sure Littauer built on the jumping as a foundation. But it was something that surprised me to learn.

Gaining a secure seat still requires the right principles, practice and the ability to adjust to different things. I like the thought that you don't sit on a horse, you perch, but some jumpers perch too much and only get over the jumps without learning to be secure in other situations.

For me it was an assumption that riders who had jumped higher than me also had these amazingly secure seats. Getting to know some of these riders, I was like, "Oh, well this will be nothing to you because you've jumped such and such," and I'd put them on some horse and we'd take off and I'd find they were feeling insecure or frightened. 

Each thing you learn is a new piece of the puzzle. Doing one part does not mean you automatically have all the pieces. So a strong horse that is running over rough ground in the open might need a different approach than a well trained jumper horse that is easily striding to a high jump and listening to your lightest cues. 

Is it easier to learn certain parts of riding if you've learned another part first? I'm not sure. Some people say if you learn dressage first it will help. Littauer maybe thought learning jumping should be first. The riding school in Vienna thought it was key to just sit on the horse and be lunged until you had a secure seat. My guess is that there is no right answer, and maybe what should be taught has more to do with the teacher than the student.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Looking back, I see no reason why someone using such very different saddles should ride the same way. While horses remain the same, the interface between us is often the saddle. A different choice in saddles, as well as how spooky a horse we learn to ride, if we jump or not, etc - all factor in to what works. *And what works is what is important!*


In bold there is something that's far more fundamental than whatever has become an accepted norm, or the current thinking, or whatever.  And I must applaud the use of the word _interface_. Great analogy.




> At this point, I'd find any kind of knee block incredibly annoying. I want my leg to slide. I need my leg to slide. Freely. I use a sliding leg, from hip to heel, sliding to where the stirrup can support me. I want flat...although I still love the idea of poleys!


You know what really freaks me out? The idea of a saddle that has bits on it that are going to prevent me from coming off cleanly in an emergency, like the horse falling. When that happens, you have got to be able to dive clear - I'd hate to be trapped under a falling horse. I've fallen only a handful of times in the past twenty years, but several times in my riding life I have fallen because the horse has fallen by accident.

With the saddle I have now, if I don't maintain that leg contact, I'm clear of the horse if necessary. The thigh-level block you can see from the front view doesn't form a rigid impediment, it only works in conjunction with that leg contact.

Has anyone here ever been trapped by their saddle? Or known someone who has been?

Interesting discussions about jumping and an independent seat. When I was a kid at riding school, they used to make us ride stirrupless often at all paces in order to foster an independent seat. If you were in a jumping saddle or an AP with knee blocks doing that exercise, riding stirrupless basically subtracted those knee blocks from your seat as well, as the leg lengthens into dressage position courtesy of gravity (if you relax it like they tell you to). And from there it was only a small step to bareback.

I much prefer having the higher-up block on my Ascot Romana (you can see the position in the last photo of my previous post) to the old knee-level blocks in the AP and jumping saddles. And I like that they are under the saddle flap, rather than projecting types.

Nice chatting with you guys.


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> [MENTION=105474]
> 
> This is why I believe in following concepts rather than rules. A rule follower will think they need to have their elbows in rather than understanding the concept behind the elbows/at/sides which is keeping your core in balance and using the reins effectively.
> I notice that good riders have quite different styles sometimes and there is quite a range of correctness - yet when you watch them ride you can see the same concepts of fluidity with the horse, not interfering with the horse's balance, the independent seat are being followed.
> The good riders I know all ride with a longer stirrup unless they are actually going over a jump course.


This. I'm very against anything that causes tension. I'm also very against the non-moving equitation you see a lot - it's about looking correct/pretty, and not being an effective rider.

People asking advice on how they can make their leg be still and hands. They have been taught the keeping hands still to the point that they don't move them at all to follow the horse. And wonder why we have so resistant/lazy horses? For a well educated/started horse rider stopping moving with the horse would mean stopping of motion.

Once I was on my green mare when she was still weaker (would trot before walking actively any longer periods of time) than she is now and OH asked "Why are you twerking like that so much?" LOL. Well, because, I'm trying to make this weak Arab bring those legs under her and walk bigger, the more she gets stronger and meets me, the less I need to "twerk". He also dared to suggest me that I'm probably not doing it correctly as you shouldn't be moving so much. :mrgreen: I then explained him that the reason why I don't move as much on Talila is that I don't have to because she pushes from behind and has now a big walk where her back feet almost touch the front ones. She did not start like that either.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> You know what really freaks me out? The idea of a saddle that has bits on it that are going to prevent me from coming off cleanly in an emergency, like the horse falling. When that happens, you have got to be able to dive clear - I'd hate to be trapped under a falling horse. I've fallen only a handful of times in the past twenty years, but several times in my riding life I have fallen because the horse has fallen by accident...
> ...Has anyone here ever been trapped by their saddle? Or known someone who has been?


Yes, that freaks me out too. I've been close to hung up and have witnessed a couple of times where people got trapped by the saddle. I've also had horses fall with me several times and seen other riders' horses fall. It is best to get clear!

I've mentioned before one of the loveliest falls I ever had was on Amore. We were cantering fast up a grassy slope, the grass was wet and slippery. When we turned a sharp corner, all four of Amore's legs went out to one side, and I stayed on the saddle as we went horizontal until just a few inches from the ground, at which point we parted ways and slid together side by side, coming to a stop a few feet later. The movement took all the force away, and it was like being laid down and then pushed gently across the grass. 

Amore was the queen of depositing me on the ground before I knew what had happened. One of the weirdest was when her feet slipped out from under her trotting, she went nearly horizontal and then back upright again in a split second, and I did not know what had happened but sort of "woke up" and found myself running on the ground next to her holding the reins. 

Maybe what we visualize and worry about relates to what we can imagine based on our experiences. My friend's horse nearly followed an elk herd that suddenly came charging down the steep side of a mountain, and I've nearly gone over the edge before on a galloping horse, so I highly prioritize being able to bail off and not go crashing down the mountainside with the horse. 

I saw a trainer once get halfway on a horse then slip, and her coat got stuck on the saddle horn. Then the green horse bolted, and she was hanging off the side by her coat. They were in an arena, and when he hit the wall at the end he slammed on the brakes. But he could have gone through a fence or fallen, as you say, and she could have had no way to get loose. So if I am in a very bulky western saddle, I sometimes feel a smidge of anxiety wondering if I can get out of it if necessary. If I were too stuck in a saddle, probably on Amore I would have found myself suddenly hanging upside down or something else equally bizarre. 
For those who think they will always somehow maneuver themselves into a good position, I submit Amore, whose blurry movements happen in the nano-seconds between our thoughts.



> (@*Fimargue*):...Once I was on my green mare when she was still weaker (would trot before walking actively any longer periods of time) than she is now and OH asked "Why are you twerking like that so much?" LOL...


Very good points. I am at this point with Hero now, and remember being there with Halla. I was actually discussing this with my DH last night, how Hero finds it very difficult to walk with a long, relaxed stride and so I have to gradually build his endurance to it. When he walks too much, he gets discouraged and he finds it much easier to trot. I've experienced it a few times when putting a horse into real work. People are always asking how to stop a horse from jigging, and I believe many do it because they do not yet have the strength to walk well enough to keep up with the other horses. First you have to teach them how to stretch out the walk and build up their strength to do it. Then you can ask them to jig less and walk more, IMO.


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## Hondo

Interesting stuff. Someday I hope to find a rider who actually knows something to ride Hondo to find out what he knows. Occasionally we'll be walking along and I'll do some repositioning of my body and he'll come to an abrupt halt and look back at me. It appears that I've given him a cue but have not figured out what it is yet. Doesn't happen often.


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## Knave

I have, when I was a little girl. I was nine I believe, and the sorrel mare was four. A bull turned back from the herd and I ran to turn him. He wouldn’t turn. The mare was giving her all, and we were far from the herd when we fell. I don’t remember falling, but when I woke up she was on top of me. I remember thinking how light she was. I couldn’t go anywhere, but I was young enough that I wasn’t panicking. When she woke she scrambled to her feet, somehow missing me and it was then I noticed the bull standing there. It must have been a great wreck and he stopped to watch. The mare took after the bull then, and that was when I panicked. I was sure my dad was going to kill me. I not only lost the bull, but my saddle and my horse.

I was tired but I crawled to the road so he could find me. He did, and he also went and found the mare who stopped at a fence when the bull went through it. I broke the tree in the saddle and the bit bent back around. Other than a likely concussion I was no worse for the wear, and neither was the mare. We finished the day out.

That is the only time I was really stuck. I’ve heard lots of stories too though. I definitely agree that you can’t just believe you will magically get out of the way. However, things happen too, and so I guess we fly by faith.


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## Knave

@Hondo, are you putting your feet forward when that happens?


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> @Hondo, are you putting your feet forward when that happens?


Have no idea. I'll just be tooling along and do something and he stops and looks back at me. I've tried different things to get him to do it but haven't found the combination. It'd be a very nice set of brakes if I knew what it was.


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## Knave

@Hondo try that when you ride, but don’t actually touch his shoulders. Lots of people, including myself, teach a horse to back up from their shoulder. That’s controversial, but that aside we also put our feet forward then to stop. The big warning is that if a horse was not taught to stop and backup from their shoulder they will buck if you hit them in it because they don’t know what it means.


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## Fimargue

Knave said:


> @Hondo, are you putting your feet forward when that happens?


Or back. That's my final signal of halting.

Maybe not the most obvious here, but: 





This saddle shoves my legs forward. Stirrups I have usually one hole longer than on this video. Waiting eagerly the day when I start a new job and can buy a new saddle.


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## egrogan

Fizz and I had a fall (we both went down) this winter in the woods, some of you may have read about that in my journal. Really shook me up. We were walking up a hill in deep snow, but hit a patch of ice. From what I remember, the fall was sort of slow motion- her front half sort of disappeared underneath me, and her front legs folded up neatly under her as though she was just laying down (at first when I didn't understand what was happening, I did think she was laying down, which was very confusing!). As that was happening, I must have kicked my feet out of the stirrups though I have no memory of that. Since she fell sort of forward and straight down, I was fortunate that once she was down on her belly, I could just kind of step off to the left as she slid awkwardly onto her right. I slipped and fell again when I hit the ice myself, but sort of crawled out of the way. Then I had to figure out how to get her up, because this patch of ice was probably twice the size of her and she couldn't regain her footing and was scrambling/slipping down again (and because we were on a steep hill, started to slide backwards). Fortunately she didn't panic and thrash harder, she just sort of sat there for a minute as I tried to figure out how to help her. I ended up pulling her nose in my direction, which shifted her shoulders into a space that seemed to be off the ice, and she was able to get her front feet planted and push off just enough behind so she sprung off the trail and into the trees. We are really lucky neither of us were hurt, but I was shaking the whole walk home (we were close, fortunately) and it did hurt my confidence for a time. We just rode through that trail again for the first time a couple of weeks ago as I didn't have the head for it.

As far as saddles- I wish I could say I was a good enough rider that I could ride in anything, but saddle positioning has a huge effect on my confidence/stability. When I was test riding horses last fall, there were a couple that I felt were not a good match while on them, but in retrospect wonder how much more I would have liked them had I been in a dressage saddle vs. a very forward flap jumping saddle. I need the dressage seat to feel stable and balanced; in the forward flap, I felt like I was going to catapult over the horse's head with every stride and could not stabilize myself.

My old dressage saddle is one that I love- it's that "fits like a glove" sort of deal- but Fizz really hated it as the shape was just all wrong for her. When I was shopping for a new saddle that would fit her better, the saddle she liked the most is more of a general purpose, and definitely a flatter seat than I was used to. It's taken me quite some time to get used to it, but now that I've had it for a month and ridden a lot in it, I don't really notice it anymore and feel secure enough in it. But when I got on Isabel in the old saddle a couple of weeks ago, my body did sort of happily relax back into that comfy old deep seat :wink:

Old saddle that Fizz hated but I love:









New saddle that Fizz loves and I am coming around to liking:


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...My friend's horse nearly followed an elk herd that suddenly came charging down the steep side of a mountain, and I've nearly gone over the edge before on a galloping horse, so I highly prioritize being able to bail off and not go crashing down the mountainside with the horse.
> 
> ...how Hero finds it very difficult to walk with a long, relaxed stride and so I have to gradually build his endurance to it. When he walks too much, he gets discouraged and he finds it much easier to trot... First you have to teach them how to stretch out the walk and build up their strength to do it. Then you can ask them to jig less and walk more, IMO.


I assume my horse falling with me will kill me. Or severely injure me. About the best I could hope for would be that it happens on pavement. In the desert, the likely scenario is scrambling up a hillside and having some of the ground give way - as it will, sometimes, even if I'm walking. If my horse can't catch his feet & we go down...I see little chance of my walking away.

One of the sons of the rancher I know had it happen to him. The trail he was following along a hillside gave way. He doesn't remember HOW he got off the horse, but remembers lying on his side and seeing the horse rolling over and over down a 50' drop. He figured it must have killed the horse, but the horse shook himself, wiggled a little, and slowly stood up. Then waited for his human to come and make it better - although it took a while for the son to figure out how to get down next to the horse.

After my one fall with Mia, I asked them about it. They said all their real injuries had come bailing off a moving horse. No one in the family had been hurt if they stayed on. Maybe their horses, raised in rough country and introduced to it by their dams, develop the sure-footedness needed. My friend said he might bail if the horse was racing mindlessly toward a cliff, but even then he thinks most horses can turn at the last second.

My BIL's last ride on a horse was in Africa. The horse (Arabian) bolted. After a mile, he was galloping hard still, right toward a cliff. My BIL did NOT bail, but the horse DID turn. My BIL says he remembers looking at 400 feet of empty space, hanging on, and then they were racing back the way they had come. Once the horse finally stopped, he got off and he hasn't TOUCHED a horse since!

Maybe it is also genetic/experience. I've watched Mia fall for no apparent reason on level ground with no rider at all. Didn't give me much confidence in her ability to save us both! I've seen Trooper fall once, racing around in a very muddy corral. I've never seen any HINT of fall in Bandit or Cowboy - our Mustang contingent, who both grew up in a free-roaming herd. 

But...we also are very careful about slopes and where we go fast. I may sound like a terrible weenie to the young, but I really think a horse falling with me will kill me. Or cripple me for life. So...I'm pretty cautious. We also figure if we lived but the horse broke a leg, well, can you imagine hiking back to the house to get a gun to kill your horse because you did something unsafe?

----------------

That brings me to my second observation. Western trained horses regularly switch gears earlier than English trained horses, and often perform them at a slower speed. A western jog, then medium trot, then MOST of them switch to a lope. Then accelerate to a canter, but will gallop before doing a fast canter.

Please understand I am NOT criticizing anybody, just exploring ideas. 



> "_Once I was on my green mare when she was still weaker (would trot before walking actively any longer periods of time) than she is now and OH asked "Why are you twerking like that so much?" LOL. Well, because, I'm trying to make this weak Arab bring those legs under her and walk bigger, the more she gets stronger and meets me, the less I need to "twerk"._" - @Fimargue


That is just so foreign to western riding as I've seen it. English riding seems to involve a manual transmission, with the rider choosing the gear and insisting on staying in it independent of speed. Western riding - at least what I've seen - uses an automatic transmission. You want a horse to go faster or slower, and HOW he does so is up to him.

Bandit sometimes gives a very big trot, but he often switches into a lope from a jog. I really cannot imagine twerking with him. How far he brings his legs under is largely up to him. In fact, I see no sign how far he brings his hind leg under him means anything to him. I've known him to use big strides behind and small ones in front, big strides in front and small ones behind, and matched strides of any length.

I just can't imagine telling him, "_Don't you lope now! I want a big trot instead!_" And my wife and DIL accept, when riding Cowboy, that he'll pause to grab a quick bite of something, then trot briefly to catch up. I've no idea how one would tell Cowboy, "_Don't jog. Walk big to catch up!_" Cowboy's answer would probably be, "_I'm doing the work; ****** off!_" He's not real polite... 

In legal terms, he is more of an independent contractor than an employee. So we explain the work we need to get done and he figures out how to do it. As the IRS puts it:

"_Worker classification is important because it determines if an employer must withhold income taxes and pay Social Security, Medicare taxes and unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. Businesses normally do not have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors. The earnings of a person working as an independent contractor are subject to self-employment tax.

*The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work, not what will be done and how it will be done*. Small businesses should consider all evidence of the degree of control and independence in the employer/worker relationship. Whether a worker is an independent contractor or employee depends on the facts in each situation._"

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation

Again, *NOT attacking anyone or telling anyone how they need to ride*. Just observing what looks like a philosophical difference in approach. As a rule, the western horses I've met are independent contractors.


----------



## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...Occasionally we'll be walking along and I'll do some repositioning of my body and he'll come to an abrupt halt and look back at me. It appears that I've given him a cue but have not figured out what it is yet...


It used to happen regularly to me when I rode Mia. From the look on her face, she was thinking, "_You aren't the brightest monkey to ever climb on a horse's back, are you?_" Then she would sigh...and go back to work.

When Bandit does it, he just looks like he is saying, "_You've GOT to be kidding me!_"

But neither of them had any advanced training, so the odds of my giving them an accidental cue were minimal. A well trained horse would probably be very frustrated by me. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hondo

Hondo knew how to back, sidepass to a gate, and neck rein when he came to the ranch as a seven year old. I suspect he knows more. But yeah, he gives that look like, "What's up dude?" Then I move my hands forward a trifle and he turns and goes back to walking along.


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## knightrider

When I got Isabeau, her modus operandi was to rear up and fall over sideways when she didn't get her way. It didn't take me long to figure out when was her boiling point and back off and do other things to keep her from doing that. She did it slowly enough that I always made it off of her before she landed on me . . . except once, when in a fit of pique, because I wasn't dismounting quickly enough, she hurled herself to the ground and trapped me, spraining my ankle. I lied to my family and said I just woke up with this terrible swollen ankle and needed crutches for 3 or 4 days. I didn't want them to know I was riding such a dangerous horse. She's now the horse I put fearful timid beginners on and she babysits them. She's come a looong way.

When I was training my white appaloosa to foxhunt, she panicked at a deep ditch and hurled herself at it, slamming into the ditch halfway down and landing on top of me, then stepping on my knee as she got up. That was a pretty bad wreck. Many years of fox hunting and she learned how to handle herself quite well.


----------



## Fimargue

bsms said:


> That is just so foreign to western riding as I've seen it. English riding seems to involve a manual transmission, with the rider choosing the gear and insisting on staying in it independent of speed. Western riding - at least what I've seen - uses an automatic transmission. You want a horse to go faster or slower, and HOW he does so is up to him.
> 
> Bandit sometimes gives a very big trot, but he often switches into a lope from a jog. I really cannot imagine twerking with him. How far he brings his legs under is largely up to him. In fact, I see no sign how far he brings his hind leg under him means anything to him. I've known him to use big strides behind and small ones in front, big strides in front and small ones behind, and matched strides of any length.
> 
> I just can't imagine telling him, "_Don't you lope now! I want a big trot instead!_" And my wife and DIL accept, when riding Cowboy, that he'll pause to grab a quick bite of something, then trot briefly to catch up. I've no idea how one would tell Cowboy, "_Don't jog. Walk big to catch up!_" Cowboy's answer would probably be, "_I'm doing the work; ****** off!_" He's not real polite...
> 
> In legal terms, he is more of an independent contractor than an employee. So we explain the work we need to get done and he figures out how to do it. As the IRS puts it:
> 
> "_Worker classification is important because it determines if an employer must withhold income taxes and pay Social Security, Medicare taxes and unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. Businesses normally do not have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors. The earnings of a person working as an independent contractor are subject to self-employment tax.
> 
> *The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work, not what will be done and how it will be done*. Small businesses should consider all evidence of the degree of control and independence in the employer/worker relationship. Whether a worker is an independent contractor or employee depends on the facts in each situation._"
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation
> 
> Again, *NOT attacking anyone or telling anyone how they need to ride*. Just observing what looks like a philosophical difference in approach. As a rule, the western horses I've met are independent contractors.



I think it also depends of the style of riding we do. My main interest is in dressage - classical school if anyone cares, but I ride out a lot, including busy roads and I want a responsive horse. As a general rule I don't mind asking my horses to really work when we do, as I already don't ride everyday and even then they have around 22 hours to just eat and sunbathe (when we are lucky). So they have it more than easy.

But what comes to walking bigger, I see it as changing biomechanics. Small steps to me usually indicates some kind of stiffness and therefore discomfort and pain. And I guess as I'm not the kind of person to just mosey along (I'm only a 5'3 person but walk 7 km/h when I hit my highest gear), I don't care for that in horses either. 

My mare was weak because she was used as a broodmare, she was underweight and had no muscles when I got her. Also she had, what I suspect was, a pelvis issue, so I have done some physiotherapy to get her going properly. She now walks very well without me having to encourage her to do it. As a matter of fact, one person who came to try her said she walks fast. 

If one really wants to know who strong "motor" their horse has, take him to a steep hill and see if he can walk it without breaking to a trot or canter.

I think about biomechanics a lot. When I walk and run, I like to think about how different things affect my movement and what do you need to create this and that. Like when I canter around the living room and notice that the hand of the leading side is more forward naturally and how that also should technically happen when I ask the horse to canter by moving my inside leg forward.


----------



## Fimargue

egrogan said:


> Fizz and I had a fall (we both went down) this winter in the woods, some of you may have read about that in my journal. Really shook me up.


Thank goodness you came out of that alright! Thinking about the ice and sliding down a steep hill without being able to regain footing gave me the shivers. 

I too have fallen with Talila, on the pavement. We both got hurt, but it wasn't as traumatic incident as yours because it all happened so fast and she got up immediately to avoid smashing me and I got up right after to run after her.


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## gottatrot

@egrogan: That fall on Fizz was a bad one. It's amazing you both were OK.



bsms said:


> I assume my horse falling with me will kill me. Or severely injure me. About the best I could hope for would be that it happens on pavement. In the desert, the likely scenario is scrambling up a hillside and having some of the ground give way - as it will, sometimes, even if I'm walking. If my horse can't catch his feet & we go down...I see little chance of my walking away.


In general I agree with the ranchers and I try not to bail off a moving horse. But if we were heading toward a sheet of pure ice or something else I knew the horse wouldn't understand but would send the horse flying, I'd probably try it. 

I have seen people come out fine from so many things that I thought were going to be catastrophic, that I try to have a bit of optimism. Wet sand is very hard and my friend who tanked straight onto her head (with helmet) when Amore fell flat at the canter a couple years ago just loaned me a horse book yesterday. 

The desert is a hard surface. But people are amazingly tough too and so are horses. And both are incredibly fragile as well. So you just never know. A person can land just right or just wrong.

I have seen people bail off moving horses without any injuries. A friend's saddle broke apart and I saw her cantering away while clinging onto the side of her horse like a baby monkey rides its mother. The saddle pieces were getting flung here and there. We were on a very dry and rocky trail, and eventually she flung herself at a patch of scrub brush and bounced off it with just a scratch. 

I'd never advocate being careless, and the knowledge of Halla's limitations in the last months I was riding her made me hold her back where I might have let her out when she was younger, because I worried she could lose her balance and go down. 

But the nerd in me must say that if your horse went down with you, even in the desert it probably wouldn't kill you. The mechanics of how it usually happens in my experience is that the horse is very good at remaining upright as long as possible while the legs scramble around (**** Francis' horse excepted). This means the rider stays with the horse until quite close to the ground, but the lower body will tend to get chucked off at the last second. We have such hard long bones and muscle to protect our lower body, so even the hardest fall will often not result in a break. It's possible to break a hip this way. But most likely is that the upper body is subjected to a little more force and comes toward the ground from higher up, so you would be most likely to land hard on one side and fracture your humerus or collarbone. 

Having a horse fall with you in my book is a lot better than when a horse bucks you off so you must fall from a height. At least the horse is trying to stay upright, so you both will tend to get closer to the ground together. My friend who broke her back got launched straight over the horse's ears and landed badly. On a beginner horse that never bucked. She forgave him and healed up well. 



bsms said:


> ...In legal terms, he is more of an independent contractor than an employee. So we explain the work we need to get done and he figures out how to do it...
> ...Just observing what looks like a philosophical difference in approach. As a rule, the western horses I've met are independent contractors.


This all cracked me up! I agree, but it does depend on the horse and what you want to do. I do want a horse to trot sometimes to build different muscles, and Halla would have never trotted unless I made her. She always wanted to canter and could do it in a wide variety of speeds, even go along with someone walking at her slowest (and highest) lope. 
And I don't want a horse to always jog or trot instead of walking, one reason is because sometimes my body needs a break and some horses again will prefer to never walk. As @Fimargue says, it is a sign of weakness that Hero cannot walk up a steep hill but must trot it. I want him to try walking to work on his hind end strength. He can't do it yet.
But I'm not going to force him to walk too much right now, it's more like a test I do to see how his strength is coming along. When he walks powerfully up a hill, I'll know he is getting stronger and more supple. But for right now I'm planning to take him on some long walks without a rider to work on building that strength more.


----------



## SueC

gottatrot said:


> ...I saw a trainer once get halfway on a horse then slip, and her coat got stuck on the saddle horn. Then the green horse bolted, and she was hanging off the side by her coat. They were in an arena, and when he hit the wall at the end he slammed on the brakes. But he could have gone through a fence or fallen, as you say, and she could have had no way to get loose. So if I am in a very bulky western saddle, I sometimes feel a smidge of anxiety wondering if I can get out of it if necessary. If I were too stuck in a saddle, probably on Amore I would have found myself suddenly hanging upside down or something else equally bizarre.


That whole post was excellent reading, thanks for that!  I'm going to share some unworthy thoughts (because I have a strange sense of humour). When I was learning to ride in Europe, Western saddles were rarely seen in that particular region (just on TV with the old cowboy movies, you know the ones where they click coconuts together to imitate the sounds of horse hooves and have lots of dubbed-over totally out-of-place neighing). And when riders did see one on a horse, you'd hear, "Nice sofa!" and "Where's the seatbelt?" and things like that. 




> For those who think they will always somehow maneuver themselves into a good position, I submit Amore, whose blurry movements happen in the nano-seconds between our thoughts.


:rofl:


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> Have no idea. I'll just be tooling along and do something and he stops and looks back at me. I've tried different things to get him to do it but haven't found the combination. It'd be a very nice set of brakes if I knew what it was.


Here's how I sometimes trick my horse into an "instant stop" - pretend I'm going to get off. You know, move my weight in the saddle as if preparing to dismount. It doesn't have to be visible to onlookers, so this was great for getting instant square halts when I was in riding shows with my late Arabian mare too! ;-) And actually, my "halt" cues are similar to my "I'm about to dismount" body changes, just more subtle. But when I really need an instant halt, I just picture getting off the horse in my mind while cueing.

I'm also going to confess to the naughtiest thing I ever did in a competition. My Arab mare was very forward, and the increases in tempo were lightning fast when cued, and came with a clear "Yay!" thought bubble from her. Decreases in tempo or energy were done with less enthusiasm. So at a stage when she was still pretty green, a judge asked me to do, "XYZ...and then do an extended trot back towards me and come to a square halt from that." And all the time I was doing XYZ, I was thinking, "****, how am I going to get a good square halt today out of an extended trot?" And then a little lightbulb appeared in my brain. So when I turned the mare towards the judge and asked for the extension, I cued her right towards the judge, the same way I cued her towards a fence when practicing halts from trot at home. And zoom, she came to an instant halt about two metres from the judge - thankfully far enough away not to arouse suspicion. :rofl: And I used all my energy to keep my face straight as the judge congratulated us on the lovely extension and textbook halt... Amazing I got away with that one! ;-)


----------



## Hondo

Interesting about a horse needing to be strong to walk up a steep hill. Hondo has always done that, and I'm talking about some spots where I might use all fours myself if walking or hiking.

But now with the (believed to be) more comfortable saddle, he does seem to be defaulting to a trot uphill more often. But not the really really steep stuff. And I'm beginning to drift away from the really really steep stuff. I like it. A lot. But it's hard for him and I'm certain he doesn't enjoy it. As in when we turn towards a trail that is particularly steep, a big deep sigh before he walks on up.

Talking about wrecks and injuries. There were a couple of fairly bad ones on this years annual ride from Wickenburg, AZ to the ranch where I stay. About 180 riders this year.

On the first day there was a small rock of some sort, 2-3 feet in diameter if I remember right, that had to be negotiated over. A green horse decided to rare up and leap over it with a green rider on his back. Here's where a Cook's would have come in handy. The rider hauled back on the reign and the horse came up and over backwards. The rider only got a few scrapes and such but the horse knocked the following horse to the ground. The rider who I'm somewhat friends with had to have several stitches in his head, but no concussion. But he did get a compressed vertebrae in one joint. Not sure how long he was in the hospital.

On the second day another green riders horse decided to go straight instead of turning right behind the horse he was following. Realizing his mistake he turned right through some boulders and trees to rejoin the other horses. The rider got swept off by a limb and landed (apparently just wrong) on a large boulder. He was airlifted out with a broken pelvis where the femur went through his pelvis joint. Haven't heard how he is doing yet.

Oh, and another on the first day of the trail committee's pre-ride. The trail boss who was leading had someone to hold his horse while he mounted. The bridle broke somehow jerking the bit and that horse went over backwards. The rider incurred six broken ribs. He said 4 were long cracks but two were sheared. Two weeks or so later when I was talking to him he was walking pretty gingerly and not making any fast moves. I've been there on that one. Not fun.


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## bsms

I figure my horse will change gears for a given speed based on things I may not know about. How hard is the ground and how uneven? How am I doing at riding that day? I try not to be heavy and am fond of two point, but I have days where I'm as stiff as a board. It could be how his back feels, or how long he expects us to go. I've noticed he often trots big in the washes (sand) and sometimes in the arena. Almost never on an ATV trail.

I liken it to my jogging. There are days I feel like Superman (tho not so many as when I was younger!) And there are days I suffer from that ancient reptilian disease, Dragon Butt! Bandit can't tell me if he has a kink in his back from rolling, and he won't tell me if he has a sore foot unless it is VERY sore.

His background includes having gone fast while using his left front leg at a 45 degree angle, and I have no idea what that did to his insides.

But as a jogger, I attribute some of my longevity to not pushing it. When younger, I was told I could increase my speed by increasing my stride length. Which was true. And about 2-3 weeks later, I was getting shin splints. So I rested until healed, tried again, same results. Probably took me 3-4 tries before I pulled an @*Hondo* and decided my body was telling me to slow down, take shorter strides, and not kill my shins. Don't know if horses get shin splints.

I like Bandit's previous owner, but I was very glad to hear he doesn't race Mia. She's a broodmare and a family horse, and I'm glad for her. What Bandit was put thru qualifies as abuse in my book. Well intentioned, and very common for that part of the country. But no horse should have to run 10-15 mile training runs with 35% of his weight on his back - or more!

He's wonky. I'm old. We don't need to do anything. And I certainly have neither the knowledge nor the skill to improve his gaits...although his gaits HAVE improved. Good trimming of his hooves, time, my fondness for two point, being willing to let him lean in a turn - his gaits are getting better. But we do horse hiking, and that sport has low standards...

PS - I found @*Hondo* 's post interesting, but WOW! Don't want to think about pulling a rearing horse over!

PSS - A study found a horse trotting up a 10% incline will automatically have a 50:50 weight distribution.


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## SueC

Just a little aside about falling off horses that's been playing on my mind.










Using Newtonian physics, we can break down the fall into a horizontal component and a vertical component.

Horizontally, the rider continues in the direction taken at parting from the horse. In the absence of atmospheric friction and gravity, the rider would continue at the same speed and in the same direction indefinitely, or until another force was applied. 

Of course, real-life riders have to contend with both atmospheric friction, and gravity. So, in the horizontal component of the fall, the rider is actually decelerating because of atmospheric friction. How much depends on headwinds, tailwinds and atmospheric pressure, which in turn is affected by altitude. It also depends on the surface area of the leading edge of the rider, and the surface characteristics of the rider's attire - lycra is bad for slowing down, fluffy microfibre much better.

In the vertical component of the fall, the rider is accelerating towards the ground at 9.8m per second per second, less the braking effected by atmospheric friction, as already discussed above. Use might be made of a parachute to increase the braking effect of atmospheric friction, especially if there was an upwards component in the motion of the rider after parting from the horse, like this:











This is because parachutes take time to inflate, which is more generously afforded by increased distance from the ground at t=0.

Alternative options using increased surface area for more efficient friction braking include this, which also introduces an additional sideways gliding component:











We are attempting to decrease the force of the fall, which depends on the height from which we fall (Shetlands are safer than Clydesdales), the velocity acquired by the rider before parting from the horse (slipping right off the other side when attempting to mount bareback is comparatively safe, especially with a pony), the efficiency or otherwise of atmospheric friction in slowing us down (artificially increasing surface area and wearing high-friction clothing help, as does trying to fall in the direction of a headwind), the mass of the rider (F=ma, so children indeed feel it less), the elasticity of the rider as an object (children are better for this too; it helps if you can bounce, as this redirects some of the force stored temporarily as elastic potential energy into kinetic energy), the landing terrain characteristics (elastic? rigid? crumply? ... a deep bed of autumn leaves is ideal, as is a deep layer of soft fluffy snow - I can thoroughly recommend the latter from personal experience), etc.

One more important concept from classical mechanics that can help us here is that we can spread out the impact force over a longer time interval, and absorb shock in other materials, if we want to have a better experience. This is why we have crumple zones in cars, or crash helmets lined with crushable materials - to absorb the shock. We've already seen a bit of this when discussing landing terrain characteristics; now we can apply it to rider surface characteristics. In harness and TB racing, people now wear body armour vests to help protect them in falls:











This one looks more heavy-duty:











This one is inflatable:











This one is traditional, but doesn't have good crumple zones, as it was really designed for another purpose:











And this is a Cyberman:










Just thought I'd throw that one in! ;-)


All further ideas welcome!


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## gottatrot

^^^^^^^^^^^Best post ever!!!! :rofl:

I think I'm going to always try to fall into a headwind.

Those were some bad wrecks, @Hondo.



> (@*Bsms*):A study found a horse trotting up a 10% incline will automatically have a 50:50 weight distribution.


Very interesting.


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## Fimargue

bsms said:


> I figure my horse will change gears for a given speed based on things I may not know about. How hard is the ground and how uneven? How am I doing at riding that day? I try not to be heavy and am fond of two point, but I have days where I'm as stiff as a board. It could be how his back feels, or how long he expects us to go. I've noticed he often trots big in the washes (sand) and sometimes in the arena. Almost never on an ATV trail.


That would change things. All we have is flat and considerably flat pretty much and even though I do dressage exercises on the trail as well, it's just gymnastics. Is not like I'm controlling every part of the horse's body when we are just trotting down a lane with some uneven footing, no no. Or when we are just covering distance. But when I do request something I expect to get what I ask, but I'm not unreasonable either, I feel when a horse is unable to do something and hopefully I'm getting better at being less perfectionist. It's not a dictatorship either, I always listen to them.




bsms said:


> But as a jogger, I attribute some of my longevity to not pushing it. When younger, I was told I could increase my speed by increasing my stride length. Which was true. And about 2-3 weeks later, I was getting shin splints. So I rested until healed, tried again, same results. Probably took me 3-4 tries before I pulled an @*Hondo* and decided my body was telling me to slow down, take shorter strides, and not kill my shins. Don't know if horses get shin splints.


Oh no, forcing yourself and the horse to do more than able is no good. I have tried the same exercise, to really push my strides from behind at speed, but the thing is that you really can't do it long at the time. With horses is about increasing the strength and length little by little. 

Another video to demonstrate what I strive for:






Not a speedy walk, but active walk with swinging back and big strides.




bsms;1970532651PSS said:


> - A study found a horse trotting up a 10% incline will automatically have a 50:50 weight distribution.


Probably because the horse carries approximately 60% of his body weight on the front and 40% on the back, so that little increase would make it automatically 50:50. That's what classical dressage is about, eventually shifting that weight more on the back. There is a good book called "Twisted Thruths of Modern Dressage" that talks about this as well.

Oh look, I even could find the part for everyone to see free of charge.  Just scroll down.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=Pa...e&q=twisted truths of modern dressage&f=false


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## phantomhorse13

@Hondo : I hope your friend makes a complete recovery, as well as the other people who took the scary falls you describe. In the case of the green horse rearing up to leap the rock, that horse likely would have gone over backwards even in a dr cooks, as grabbing the reins would still have unbalanced him, be that pressure on the mouth or under the jaw. Some may argue the pressure under the jaw would have been even worse, as that can encourage a horse to toss its head even under normal circumstances.




bsms said:


> I figure my horse will change gears for a given speed based on things I may not know about. How hard is the ground and how uneven?
> 
> Don't know if horses get shin splints.


Horses can and do get shin splints - they are called "bucked shins" and are most often associated with racehorses.


Giving your horses the freedom to change gears as necessary under reasonable circumstances doesn't negate your need to have the final say though. I think of your Bandit vs trampoline or Bandit vs garbage can stories, where his choice may well have been to spin around and/or exit at a high rate of speed.

I generally choose the speed and let the horse I am riding pick the gait, however I always reserve the right to pick both if I feel the horse is making a poor choice (like wanting to canter, even if slowly, down a rocky slope).



I have unfortunately had horses fall with me on multiple occasions and have managed to avoid serious injury. *knock wood* I have also chosen to bail a handful of times and have only had that end poorly once (but staying on the horse as she crashed into the fence and bounced off against trees wouldn't have ended well for me either).


----------



## updownrider

gottatrot said:


> Oh yes, the nerds are here. Those of us who are told "You are thinking about it too much." "Why make it complicated?" and etc.
> 
> 
> So perhaps we name horses more to shape our own behavior, which shapes theirs...not sure how we could separate out which influences which. I do know my friend's horse named Boo became far less spooky after his name was changed to Booker. Someone I know had a horse named Brat...who was a bit bratty.
> 
> The article about the "Pop out" effect was very good. For those who don't get Equus, it talked about how humans notice things that are extra (and probably horses do too) in a scene, such as a cat standing in a field, but naturally overlook things that are absent. Amore, who is often different from the norm does break the rule. If we ride by a black log, she will tense up and look at it until she adapts. But if you take the black log away, she will also tense up and notice that the scenery behind where the log was is now visible. So maybe it's not that she notices an "absence," but rather that she is sensitive enough that the scenery where the log used to be now "pops out" at her.
> 
> What the article highlighted is that humans notice bad behavior (it "pops out" at us) but don't notice when a horse is exhibiting good behavior, so we fail to praise it or let the horse know it is what we want. So we try to train the horse by an absence of correction when they are doing well, but it may not be as apparent to the horse that what they are doing is what we want unless we recognize good behavior and reward it.
> 
> I think I tend to follow this rule at least some of the time. For example, if a horse picks up a trot on the lunge, if they stay in a consistent working trot that I like, I will use my voice to say "Good, good," and then shortly after stop the horse and reward them. As a horse learns my good voice tones and bad ones, I go for longer periods before giving the reward, sort of like using a clicker I guess.
> So yes, when Hero bucked hard the other day I pulled his head right up and smacked him loudly on the neck and used a harsh voice. But later when he was cantering nicely, I was making the rein very loose and saying, "good, good" in a pleased tone. To me it seems obvious the horse must differentiate between wanted and unwanted behaviors, and for me the voice is the easiest tool to use.
> 
> *@horseluvr2524*: I would think that most horses have not been taught to back onto horse trailers. Or to have the finesse needed to back around tight corners. I'm not sure how you could have guessed your horse would be loaded in a non-typical fashion. It seems to me like one of those things that you'd never think to prepare for. Such as when my friends brought their young horse to the vet clinic where he was supposed to walk onto a floor scale which was a dark square on a brightly painted green floor. The horse did not wish to step into that hole and could not understand why the humans were trying to push him down there. Or my friend who learned her horse had never been taught to trot alongside a human, just walk when she was leading him and trying to cross a narrow highway bridge before a semi truck got there. Now she teaches all her horses to trot on the lead, and I do too. :smile:
> 
> 
> This is something I was trying to get her to work on.
> To me it is so crucial to have the secure seat coming from the legs.
> What I find difficult is trying to differentiate to someone the difference between having the weight down the leg versus bracing in the stirrups. I was thinking about it today...it has something to do with the knee, I think, but still it is difficult to pinpoint other than by feel.
> What is hard to explain is how you must have the weight down your leg, which results in weight in the stirrup. But at the same time, if your stirrup broke off, you should still be there in the same position. So is that actually stirrup-centric? If you drop your stirrups, you should be able to post in almost the same fashion as with them - just a tiny bit more muscle required. If you lose a stirrup, you should continue on in balance but still want to pick it right up in order to have the best security should the horse dart sideways.
> 
> When Halla would leap into her flying lead changes, sometimes a stirrup would come off my foot. But that is different than the insecure leg, which would not keep the stirrup or the seat through any of the flying changes. If the stirrup came off, I would wait for the right moment in the stride when my weight was less through that leg (stirrup or no stirrup), and then the stirrup would swing back toward my foot and I would find the timing to slide my foot back in. Sometimes it would take three strides. Then I'd put a little more weight down my leg so it wouldn't happen again. The weight required is more if the horse's push upward is more forceful.
> 
> But how do you put more weight down the leg? You always weigh the same and you're sitting on the horse. But as the horse becomes more forceful you have to put a little more angle in your joints so more of your weight ends up down low. Behind the calf and lower thigh. See, so difficult to explain. I'm not sure if it is clear at all. It's not like you want to stand up higher off the horse or anything.
> 
> 
> I feel like I have to learn to ride every horse I'm riding seriously. Whatever gear works for them, it always has a different feel from when it's used on another horse. Their individual size, the scope of the gaits, smoothness, bounciness, tempo, center of gravity, how quick they respond, it's all new territory. In one horse a saddle might feel secure, on another like I'm going to topple over the shoulder. I think X and Y are called variables for a reason, and with horses there seem to be few constants. So I keep experimenting.


I’m not at the end of your journal and I’m on my iPad so it’s hard to quote the relevant part, but skiing has a similar balance to English riding. A skier weighs the same always like a rider but manages to shift their weight when and where necessary. A rider can and does the same with their legs and seat, and weight in their stirrups. Most athletes in most sports must shift their weight and balance for an advantage I’d guess. 

Your Japan photos are beautiful.


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## bsms

Something that has become a theme for me lately is how our environment can shape our goals, and how both affect our riding. I keep my horses at home, have a postage stamp for an "arena", so I've been driven to ride out. But I live in a very rocky part of Arizona, learned on a spooky horse who found speed incredibly intoxicating, who often bolted when we started, so even my trail riding became more focused on calming a horse.

If I kept my horse at a stable, and it had a large arena, and there were others there interested in ( insert horse sport name here ), I might have become a keen enthusiast of sport X. And since I live in southern Arizona, sport X might have been barrel racing, or pole bending. But if I lived back east, or in Europe, sport X might have been dressage.

If I lived in NE Arizona, I might have become addicted to the relay races Bandit was used in. Mia probably would have loved doing them, and maybe if she ran 10-15 miles regularly, running wouldn't have blown her mind with excitement. But they have dirt roads there, and we have rocky ATV trails here. I enjoy some strolling along an ATV trail:








​ 
But to increase the challenge, we needed to go off-trail:








​ 
It doesn't look like we'll be moving for the next couple of years, although my wife & I would like to move to northern Arizona / southern Utah. If we ever do, then riding in places like these might change how and why I ride:

NE Arizona, in the Navajo Nation. I would SO love to be able to ask Bandit to race someone along these roads:








​
The San Rafael Swell, north of I-70 in Utah:








​
This picture is pretty impressive. It is from the Navajo Nation. There are a lot of places similar in southern Utah, which is part of why I'd like to move to southern Utah. But I suffer from some vertigo, and really would NOT want to sit on many horses in a place like this:








​
The last picture came from this website. It has some great pictures of NE Arizona. Much of SE Utah looks similar:

Navajo Nation - The Dreamy Bunny

I'll admit riding in places like this would be a total change from what I do now. This was taken on our vacation last fall, in central Utah:










The dirt roads there are DIRT, not broken rock. But it would be a blast to go out with some friends to go horse hiking there, wandering up a side canyon just because you could!​


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> that horse likely would have gone over backwards even in a dr cooks,


Well, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would agree with you. And others who would disagree. I am respectfully one of the latter.

A bit bearing much of the weight of a rider causes pain. A cook's does not.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> A bit bearing much of the weight of a rider causes pain. A cook's does not.


That depends very heavily on the bit in question. I have been on racehorses who very happily poked out their noses to let the snaffle bit rock back against their teeth so they could ignore it and run as they pleased.. and no amount of backwards pull was going to change that one iota. 

A curb bit with an edged mouthpiece? Yup, that is gonna hurt.

I watched a horse wearing a dr cooks for the first time being ground driven to introduce the new equipment. Weren't we all shocked when this mellow gelding flipped over backwards the first time the owner asked for a turn. The owner checked him over head to toe, expecting to find a bee sting, etc. Nothing. She asked him to move out again and repeated the turn cue and over he went again. It was clear the cross under pressure was NOT acceptable to that horse. Pain? Fear? Aliens? No idea, but he had been ridden for years in a french link snaffle by the same owner and never had thought about rearing.

Horses are masters at making any of our always/never statements about them false.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> A bit bearing much of the weight of a rider causes pain. A cook's does not.


I agree with @phantomhorse13 because a horse may strongly object to things other than pain. A horse may tolerate some degree of pain but be unable to mentally tolerate some other type of pressure. 

Amore is one who could not tolerate a crossunder bitless such as a Dr. Cook's. She is a very claustrophobic horse, and what I believe is that the squeeze that tightens under the jaw makes her feel trapped. 

A horse that goes over backward might be unbalanced and have the rider pull them over just because of physics. I have personally seen and felt how delicate the balance is when a horse is rearing high. A horse has a lot of control over a low rear, and that is what most horses do when simply expressing a strong opinion - a quick up and down or hop. But a rear that goes high is tenuous. Most horses don't go there unless feeling quite upset or out of control. From a high rear it is super easy to pull a horse over even with a halter, and they may lose balance just from their own weight. My friend had a horse that reared very high and I saw her go over without a rider from losing her balance. She was very experienced at rearing too, so that was enlightening to me.

If a horse makes the decision to keep going up and over from a rear, it is because they feel trapped and up is the only direction they can think of going. I would say from experience that a horse can feel trapped from circumstances or a rider can block a panicky horse with any type of headgear, because I trapped Amore once in a bosal. She did not appear to find a bosal painful or claustrophobic either, but in a Dr. Cook's she was claustrophobic.


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## bsms

When I moved Bandit into the Dr Cook's, we first spent some time together standing side by side, working on flexing the way Warwick Schiller demonstrates it using a single horse hair. We also did a little vertical flexing, to introduce stopping with 2 reins. THEN I mounted up.

Judging by how it felt when I slid my hand under it, I'd describe it like this:

Put your thumb under the nearside jawbone and your fingers along the nose. Imagine your hand is being pulled thru a metal ring. As it compresses, it squeezes the horse's face, gripping it and pulling it in that direction. The grip with the thumb provides a more concentrated squeeze than the 4 fingers across the nose. 

Not sure what a pull straight back with both reins would feel like. I'm pretty happy with how Bandit does in his Cook's...but it would be a different feel at first.

I think a bit could feel much harsher. Look at this X-ray:








​ 
I'm certain horses can get it to slide back against their molars. That is why I used a curb to work with Mia's bolting habit. She had become quite good at resisting a snaffle by stretching out her nose. I don't know if she also lifted it first with her tongue so it would slide back or not. Hard to find a portable X-ray machine to watch during a bolt!

I think a bit would ultimately provide a lot more pressure in a small area than a Dr Cook's. Haven't got any experience with rearing. And I'll be quite happy to die in my bed decades from now without developing any skill in that area of horsemanship! That is also why I always stand next to my horse to introduce a new bit. In most cases, 30 seconds shows the horse understands it. But if they don't, I can stand there a la Warwick Schiller, waiting, while holding the rein lightly between my thumb and index finger.


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## Hondo

Well, I reckon I just got outvoted, but I still think that on the average a horse is more likely to react badly to a bit being suddenly jerked into his mouth by someone attempting to keep from falling than by the same action from a Cook's.

And Amore, whom I've come to like a lot, does not come under the heading of average. She's way way out on the end of the bell curve. Maybe both ends


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> A skier weighs the same always like a rider but manages to shift their weight when and where necessary. A rider can and does the same with their legs and seat, and weight in their stirrups. Most athletes in most sports must shift their weight and balance for an advantage I’d guess.
> 
> Your Japan photos are beautiful.


Thank you, I agree with your points and have seen that it can be easier for some coming to riding from other sports to learn if they have already learned some of those concepts of balance.



> Well, I reckon I just got outvoted, but I still think that on the average a horse is more likely to react badly to a bit being suddenly jerked into his mouth by someone attempting to keep from falling than by the same action from a Cook's.
> 
> And Amore, whom I've come to like a lot, does not come under the heading of average. She's way way out on the end of the bell curve. Maybe both ends


I'm sure you're right. Especially I have heard of beginner riders leaning back on leverage bits and causing horses to panic. Definitely you are right about Amore. :smile:

I was very pleased today when Nala's rider posted a picture she took of Nala, Amore and Hero in the field on FB, and our friend who rides Cass and Brave saw it. She hasn't seen Hero in several months, and she said she thought he looks like a different horse! 
I've noticed improvements in his body and it was good to hear she noticed too.









We did a short ride and then a walk with Amore today. They had some free time in the arena too.

























Amore is so cute.








Still so flexible at 27.









Hero is getting more interested in what I do and is watching me more.


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## Hondo

Hero is looking powerful. Amore is just so darn cute! And cute is not normally in my vocabulary.

Edit: Looking back at Amore, she looks like she has blanket/saddle marks on her??


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## horseluvr2524

Is Hero in his summer coat yet? 

Amore is a sweetie


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## ChasingDreams

Do you have a “before” picture of Hero to compare side by side? He looks very fit! I remember you saying he wasn’t strong enough to walk powerfully uphill...and I’m having a hard time picturing how much stronger he would need to be to do so 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, that's just Amore's long coat that is laying funny. She still has a bit of shedding to do. 
@horseluvr2524, Yes, Hero's coat is pretty sleek already. It is odd how the winter coat was about as long as Amore's summer coat, yet he has had to shed it all out. It looked like short fuzz coming off. 
@ChasingDreams, I guess it's not just about strength, but also learning how to use the strength and Hero is still learning how to connect his own body. He was very awkward looking and uncoordinated. 








His sacroiliac area had two hard knobs on the top, with tight muscles. Those are feeling looser now and think it's helping too that I'm feeding magnesium, E and selenium. 








He looked downhill at first, but he's really not. The knots on his sacroiliac area were sort of built up on top of his butt. Honestly, I would not have gone to look at him based on those photos if he had been for sale. He looks like his parts don't all fit together.
My guess is that he still has some muscle to add, especially along his back and neck.


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## gottatrot

Today was fire training day.

I watched the Kentucky Derby and thought about what I'd read, that all the horses running were related to Hero (all through Mr. Prospector). The inbreeding in racing is beyond ridiculous.

On the way to the barn, I decided that Hero was ready to try galloping, so thought I'd ask Nala's rider to lead us out for a quarter mile (assuming it would probably end up a half mile). 

When I got to the barn, it turned out we were in for a slow ride. Nala's rider planned to try her boyfriend on Penny, the giant, young, green draft cross. Walking down the beach, I was very pleased to have the chance to work with Hero on relaxing, going at a slow pace and we also had a lot of opportunity to get some distance from the other two horses and stay calm.

It wasn't long before Nala was completely frustrated and her rider had to take her up into the deep sand and canter in circles and for short runs up and down the beach. It was good to feel confident enough in the understanding Hero and I have already and know that I could stay with Penny and be the one keeping everything under control.

Soon we realized that Rebel's rider (who has been riding Penny) has been "training" Penny that she can choose to do whatever she wants at any time. When I had gone out with them, I'd noticed that Penny frequently went for short little canters that lasted about thirty seconds or so. I'd wondered if the rider had asked Penny to do that, but we soon found out that this was just Penny doing her own thing at will. With an even greener rider, Penny just randomly trotted or cantered or stopped. 

Horses seem to understand quite well when a rider is choosing to let them decide the gait or pace, but still reserving the right to take that choice away. Versus they also seem to understand quite well when a rider is just letting them do whatever they feel like. With one rider the horse might appear free, or not as controlled, but the horse can still respect the leadership of that rider. With the other, the horse will decide he is the one who is the leader. 

I believe Nala's rider does care a lot for her boyfriend...but...

My initial thought was that it would work out OK if I kept Hero walking, never followed Penny's gait changes, and I know Penny's temperament which is very unflappable (and stubborn), and low energy. It wasn't like she was going to canter for more than a few feet at a time, or run away.

There were fires everywhere on the beach. For some reason, every single person (spread out at regular intervals about every 1/8th of a mile) had built a big fire today. The wind was strong, and they all had big flames and towers of smoke rising from them. 
We passed four or five fires, and the horses' nostrils flared but no one spooked, although Hero felt tense as we went by.

A drone suddenly whined by, high over our heads. The horses did not seem to notice. We passed another car, parked a hundred feet from us. Two young teen girls sat in the sand, and I saw they also had a drone hovering above their car. 

Next thing I knew, the drone shot over to just above Hero's head, and I heard a loud buzzing in my ears. As he gathered to bolt, unsure of the direction, I was suddenly FURIOUS. "*Knock it off!!*" I hollered at the girls and their mother who was standing near them. "Get that thing out of here! You are going to spook the horses!!" I don't know when I've yelled that loud. 

I was so mad, I just sat there as Hero's legs scrabbled around beneath me, and the drone exited quickly and grounded, with those by the car looking sheepish. 
Hero, being a horse used to misbehaving and getting yelled at seemed to take my yelling as displeasure at his scramble, so the bonus was that he stopped his scurry and didn't bolt off. 

Penny was still walking along, unconcerned. A few minutes later, after we'd walked for awhile calmly, I thought "Wow, it would take something very serious to spook that horse."

Not five seconds later, Penny dropped her rider. Nala had headed into deeper sand, and Penny's rider had followed. A seemingly harmless crater in the sand contained a fire someone had left smoking, and as they neared it the smoke monster came snarling up at the horse's noses. Nala had glanced at this, and decided it was OK since she was used to all the beach hubub. Penny snorted in the smoke and went backwards and sideways in a big rush, shooting her rider off to one side. 

My experience lets me look at flash cards in my mind really quickly for possible scenarios. Rider falling - flash. Horse loose - flash. Next that horse is going to run - flash. Next my horse will try to run - flash. 
My feet flung out of the stirrups and I was off (flash).

The instant my feet hit the sand, Hero and Nala simultaneously realized that Penny had discovered a smoke monster. Nala immediately dropped her rider, which is admittedly very hard to do. She kept the reins, and popped up after laying on her back for a second. Penny's rider was up too, and Penny was thinking about leaving. 

We crooned at her and tried to pretend like Nala and Hero weren't trying to leave too. Penny stepped on her reins, which were attached to the bit with delicate leather lacing, which snapped. Nala's rider circled around Penny and she headed back toward Hero, stopping a few feet away. I grabbed onto her tail and leaned back while Nala's rider inched up and took her bridle.
We tied her rope rein directly to the bit, and although it made the reins a bit short, it would hold. 

We all got back on, and the drama was over for the day.
Yeah, right.

After going a bit farther, we turned back toward home. Near where the drone had been, there was a different car now and three huge dogs leaped out and came racing at us. Hero tensed up, but I said "Just dogs." He knows dogs. 

The big white fluffy one kept running at us, growling as he came. Then a woman came running after the dogs, but she was screeching like a banshee. Hero's eyes started rolling around. We started hopping sideways, then we began looping around in 360s as I kept him from running off. I'm pretty sure we were making spirograph figures in the sand. Take that you fancy dressage riders, ha!
Nala wasn't too worried, just hopped a little and Penny was once again unconcerned. 
I wondered if I was going to be the third rider to fall off but somehow kept rotating and trotting gradually farther away as the dogs and screeching faded out behind us.

We all walked nicely the last half mile down the beach. We went up the dune, and Hero spotted his shadow rising up the dune in front of him. That was the end of his calmness (I'd been thinking happily: after all that, I'm going to walk home a calm horse!). We hopped and sweated and tried not to buck and pranced sideways all the way home. 

At the barn, I tied him and he was still worried. I went to pick out his hooves and reached for a hind one. His eye rolled back and he threatened me like Halla used to. "If you take away my foot right now I will kick you with it." Foolishly, I went for it again. 

He kicked me. Then he pulled back to the end of his halter and tensed up, and of course I scolded him fiercely, as he knew I would. Of course I then made sure he let me pick up the hind hoof again. RIGHT!! Of course I didn't. If working with hot horses has taught me anything it is when to know that a horse is not capable of doing something at the moment. You can try to win a battle if you want to get seriously hurt. He was amped and if I wanted to safely pick up his hooves I was going to need to wait until his energy came down about 12 notches. He had kicked me gently enough that it will barely leave a bruise. That was him being as gracious as he could.

So we went and hosed off the horses, and they enjoyed it, and Hero finally calmed. Penny managed to break the rest of her bridle when she rubbed, got the cheekpiece around a piece of wood and pulled. We agreed that a bridle that broke so easily was probably not the safest! 

It was an adventure, and call me crazy but I thought overall it was a good ride. After all, we got some fire training and even drone training in. Pretty hard to stage those yourselves.


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## gottatrot




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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> He looked downhill at first, but he's really not. The knots on his sacroiliac area were sort of built up on top of his butt. Honestly, I would not have gone to look at him based on those photos if he had been for sale. He looks like his parts don't all fit together.
> My guess is that he still has some muscle to add, especially along his back and neck.


One good equestrian book I picked up as a kid translates to "Riding with Sense" and was written by an ex-cavalry guy who spent his life involved in sports horse breeding, was President of the German Horse Riders and Drivers Association, and curator of an equine museum. A chapter in it is entitled, "Weighing Up Variables, and The Ability To Forgive". It presents a whole lot of horses photographed side-on without tack, with a twin photo of the same horse ridden. He points out that many of the Olympic team horses would never have made the grade in the breeding horse showring, yet had that something amazing that transformed them from ordinary when seen in the paddock to unbelievable when ridden.

A little aside - those landscape photos @bsms posted are amazing. What breathtaking landscapes in that part of the world!

Whereabouts are you, @gottatrot?


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## SueC

I was just going to log an observation with you guys. Recent discussions on riding and seat on this journal made me step back and observe things that are usually autopilot. Had a bareback session with Sunsmart this evening on our sand trails through the bush, walking and trotting, and I noticed that without a saddle I really only have contact with that particular horse from my seat down to my knees. The lower legs were barely touching his side; they only came into effect around corners or when re-balancing after going slightly off-balance.

This is mostly down to two main anatomical characteristics: First of all, that I have extremely long femurs (50cm from mid-patella to femoral head), and secondly, that Sunsmart has wide shoulders, a wide back and a thorax like a barrel, just like my Arabian mare did. Both of them required special saddles for wide-backed horses with huge ribcages. So when I'm riding bareback on Sunsmart, my legs are in contact until the widest part of the transverse section of the horse just behind the shoulders, and this coincides with my knee. Below that, I'd have to be shaped like John Wayne to stay in contact with the thorax curving back in - and I would only be able to grip with the lower legs if I turned my toes out quite drastically. (I seem to remember someone saying recently that bareback riding promoted lower leg gripping; not in my case.)

So essentially, I'm depending on seat to knee contact, mostly through the inner thigh muscles and gluteals, on being very relaxed and "elastic", and on balance above all else. It was quite interesting to observe how small the actual constant contact area is, compared to what one might think. I'm sure that it's different for other riders; shorter femurs mean more lower leg contact; a narrower-backed and -barreled horse ditto.

And with my very forward Arabian mare, any attempts to grip on with the lower legs would have resulted in a turbo-charged increase in speed - since she was trained to respond mainly to weight cues and very slight increases in contact with the lower leg. So gripping when in trouble would have resulted in an additional burst of speed on top of whatever was being dealt with in the first place.  No wonder I didn't do it.

When the saddle is on, I have more lower leg contact, but you can see the basics of what I was talking about here in the photo below:











Having a long femur forces you to have the thigh in dressage position - the moment you bring it forward/upward, you're impinging on the horse's shoulders, or running out of saddle. So I'd say that short-legged riders have more leg position options that can work for them.

The horse without the rider:










Hope all of you had an excellent weekend! :wave:


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## bsms

I dunno, @*SueC* ...my granddaughter has no problem with lower leg contact! 








​ 
'Course, she doesn't exactly have a long femur. Since her Dad is 5'2" and her Mom is 5'0" on a really tall day, long femurs won't be an issue for her. Ever!

Bandit is slender with slab sides. Lower leg contact...physically easy to do, but I guess I don't think about it. I guess this would be typical, in a way. Cantering in a circle, one leg off and out and one leg curled around him:








​
I'm leaning into the turn, which I guess is bad, although I leaned on motorcycles and was told that was good. Of course, motorcycles also lean into a turn, but horses leaning into turns is considered bad...except they seem to do so a lot, particularly as they go faster in a turn. That picture also shows how slender and how straight-sided Bandit is. Compare him to:








​ 
It would be interesting to try a dressage or jump saddle on Bandit. I'd like to see if that changed what felt "right" when riding him. Bareback on him isn't likely. He has an A-frame back and I've got a bony butt...and there needs to be some cushion SOMEWHERE! If I could figure out how to ride him on my belly...:rofl:


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## SueC

@bsms: Maybe you could assume the lying across the horse's back, head hanging down one side, legs down the other, "bag of wheat" position for bareback cushioning? ;-) Although you'd then have to come up with an alternative steering system...

That granddaughter of yours just gave me cuteness overload! :happydance:

How's this for a riding position?


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## SueC

...I found a horse/rider picture that shows what I mean better:


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## Hondo

I don't have particularly long legs or femur but encounter the same. I just ride a short horse. I reckon it's relative?


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> ...I found a horse/rider picture that shows what I mean better:


 @SueC, I live on the north Oregon coast in the U.S. :smile:

My opinion is that you will end up with a wide variety of how your leg lays on a horse depending on the size of the horse, barrel shape, your size and shape. I don't try to keep my lower leg on a horse, but rather just work with however much of my leg contacts the horse based on keeping my feet oriented with the ground. 
Beau was large, but it looks my leg left his side just below the knee.









Nala is tall with a narrow barrel.








Nala's rider is much taller than I am, and she follows the same style I do. Her leg follows the horse until it leaves the side based on the orientation of the stirrup/foot which would be mimicking a foot/stirrup on the ground. But due to her height, the leg leaves the horse at a different spot than mine.









Brave is short but narrower.









Amore is short and super wide. Yet she is small enough that I sat a little narrower than I did on Halla.









Halla's barrel was wider at the top, so my leg would go out very wide on her. Both Halla and Amore wore wide tree saddles.

















With Hero he is a little taller and wide, but still his barrel doesn't slope away underneath like Halla's did, so my leg stays on him farther down. Yet I sit a bit wide.









What would be interesting is what type of horse feels comfortable to the rider. Or easier to stay with. 
Booker is very difficult for me to stay with. Rough gaits and my leg left his barrel high up, so it felt like I needed to have a short stirrup and get off his back or I would bounce around. His canter is beautiful though.


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## SueC

That's a really interesting and detailed analysis with lots of examples - wow!

Oregon! A good friend lives there too; I had no idea of the landscapes there other than coniferous forests, having never been. Those are great riding beaches, do you live in riding distance or do you have to trailer out? Those mountains in the background behind the beach look intriguing; are there good climbing trails there?

I'm enjoying your parade of horses; I expect some of them are deceased (but I'm not a skim reader and so haven't read all 189 pages ;-) ). Hero really transforms when ridden, doesn't he? Halla seems to be similar in her back and chest to Sunsmart - and look at your legs go out! Interestingly, I am far more comfortable on wide-backed horses with enormous thoraxes than "normal" horses. What configuration do you find most comfortable?

...and have you ever met a bear?


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## Hondo

Switching gears, I'm going to comment that I don't think I want to go riding on the beach with @gottatrot anyway soon!

Enjoyed the post on the beach ride but was glad I was not there! I also enjoyed the story "Lesson Learned" at the back of this months Equus and the term "meltdown" as applied to the horse.

I've thought a lot about that term as Hondo experienced what I would call meltdown recently during the return from a ride with the big spring ride to the ranch from Wickenburg, AZ.

I have tentatively decided that since horses notice so much more that's happening than we do, in new situations where a lot of stuff is going on they just go into something like information overload with more than they can process and have a sort of mini nervous breakdown or "meltdown".

Looking back I can see that Hondo was on the edge and struggling to retain composure for a long period of time, couple of hours, and when one of two pack horses that was led by a guy following us decided to lay down with a commotion following and the horse in front of us struck out at Hondo with a hind leg, without hitting him, it was just too much. Hondo fell completely apart.

I led him, I talked to him, I gave him treats and scratches. Nothing helped him other than me being on the ground. On his back he was unglued.

I loosed his saddle and felt under it. Nothing.

Unless the group left us alone, which they were reluctant to do, I was not sure how we were going to get home. I think he would have settled after they left but they didn't want to.

A medical doctor that was also an anesthesiologist was along and said he could give Hondo a shot that would calm him but would only do so if I wanted him to. He said it was his own mixture of Ace, Rompem sp?, and some other stuff he did not identify.

He said it would act in about 1-3 minutes. He gave 2 cc's in the jugular and in a minute or less Hondo was his normal self. We completed the ride with no issues at all.

That experience also opened my eyes to what can be done to a horse pre sale. The doctor said the effect would last 2-3 hours.

Living remotely as I do now, I now have onsets of mini meltdowns when in large towns on shopping trips for too long. I leave before the onset progresses to meltdown. So I'm thinking something similar happens to horses sometimes even if there is no apparent fear.


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## Dragoon

I'm 5'4' and ride a 14.1 pony. He has a super wide barrel. No part of my leg past the knee contacts him unless I'm trying to signal. 
Since most of my riding experience has been with him, any other horse feels too 'skinny'. And horses that feel like him, feel just right!
It is an adjustment, when riding a skinny horse, so be more aware of what pressures I am giving with my lower leg. 

I have a great photo of me on him bareback, but HF doesn't give the option of uploading anymore?


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## SueC

@*Dragoon* , I've always had to put photos online first for HF, and use the URL. Would love to see your photo if that's feasible for you!


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## ChasingDreams

@Hondo I’m with you 100%, there is definitely a point of no return. I’m in the camp of push your horse where you can, but know when to walk away when you can’t. Especially when you are riding alone.

All the professional trainers are on the sides yelling “No, you can’t! You have to WIN or you will never pass that bird/cow/car/horse eating monster again”

I’m lucky in the way that my horse doesn’t “explode” when pushed past that point, but he does get as far away as he feels comfortable and then if I push too hard he will just shut down completely. Won’t budge in any direction, towards the scary thing or away from it. And if it gets to that point, I will have a much harder time getting him using his brain again.

When we have a buddy along, it’s not much of an issue because he will always follow a buddy in a pinch. But when we are alone, if I feel him getting to that point I will ask for a few steps in the right direction before promptly re-routing. Sometimes the battle isn’t worth the fight. Lose the battle, win the war. 


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> Switching gears, I'm going to comment that I don't think I want to go riding on the beach with gottatrot anyway soon!
> 
> Enjoyed the post on the beach ride but was glad I was not there!


Aw, why not? It's fun! :wink: :lol:

There was some drama the day I went riding with her. Gottatrot's life is certainly never boring.
@gottatrot

Glad you made it through everything OK! It sounds like he did pretty well under the circumstances. That was a turd thing to do, kicking you, but understandably he wasn't in his right mind!

Thin leather bridles aren't worth a darn. Especially on a draft horse.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...I have tentatively decided that since horses notice so much more that's happening than we do, in new situations where a lot of stuff is going on they just go into something like information overload with more than they can process and have a sort of mini nervous breakdown or "meltdown"...


My Mom had Alzheimer's. We tried having her live with us. But kids and 3 dogs made for too much commotion. She would become violent. After talking to doctors and others, we put her in a home with 2 other patients. Simple routine. Quiet. The theory was to keep the random inputs down to a level that her remaining brain could process. It mostly worked. Easily a 90% improvement in her behavior.

We learned we couldn't take her to stores. The commotion in Costco would cause her to become violent. A short trip to McDonald's was fine, particularly at a quiet time. 

Don't know if it is related to horses or not.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Next thing I knew, the drone shot over to just above Hero's head, and I heard a loud buzzing in my ears. As he gathered to bolt, unsure of the direction, I was suddenly FURIOUS. "*Knock it off!!*" I hollered at the girls and their mother who was standing near them.


Holy shiitake. This makes me furious beyond words. I would have been doing a lot more than just yelling "knock it off!" I am so glad nobody was hurt.

Last year, Keith got buzzing by a drone while in the tractor spraying! After hearing the story, DH made a call to the local chief of police (a friend) and asked him what we could do if someone tried such a thing around our place. His answer was "shoot it."

A few weeks later, we happened to be out doing some yard work when we heard a weird noise. Look over and here comes a drone across the cornfield, about 15 feet above the ground. DH went into the house after his gun as I kept a close eye on the horses. Luckily they didn't seem too upset initially, though they were all alert and watching. When the drone crossed over the fence into the pasture, DH did indeed shoot it.

Funny, nobody ever showed up to ask about it.. 


I know the beach is a public place, but I still don't think that gives people an excuse to act in a way that puts other in danger. What if Hero spooked, dumped you and ran, causing injury and/or damage - would they have been paying for it? Or the vet bills/medical bills? I know there has been talk here locally of passing legislation regarding drones - such a shame there is no such thing as common sense any more!


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## egrogan

ChasingDreams said:


> I’m in the camp of push your horse where you can, but know when to walk away when you can’t. Especially when you are riding alone.
> 
> All the professional trainers are on the sides yelling “No, you can’t! You have to WIN or you will never pass that bird/cow/car/horse eating monster again”


Just this morning, was riding on a new trail, and passed a large free standing boulder, which Fizz is highly suspicious of whenever she sees them. She gave me a little spin (would have been a nice turn on the haunches if I had asked for it :wink but then she just sort of stood there facing the other direction, and I could just _feel _her thinking, "now what happens?" She clearly would have preferred the opportunity to go home, but I asked her to turn back the other way by the boulder. Without any more argument she went on past the scary boulder. But it was definitely not an I WILL WIN AND YOU WILL LOSE HORSE sort of thing. If she had been more worried and reactive, we probably would have stopped and waited and tried again, or even gotten off and led past. But this time, none of that was needed and we continued on our ride quietly.



phantomhorse13 said:


> Last year, Keith got buzzing by a drone while in the tractor spraying! After hearing the story, DH made a call to the local chief of police (a friend) and asked him what we could do if someone tried such a thing around our place. His answer was "shoot it."
> 
> A few weeks later, we happened to be out doing some yard work when we heard a weird noise. Look over and here comes a drone across the cornfield, about 15 feet above the ground. DH went into the house after his gun as I kept a close eye on the horses. Luckily they didn't seem too upset initially, though they were all alert and watching. When the drone crossed over the fence into the pasture, DH did indeed shoot it.


When Izzy and I were at our old barn, we were out on a nice fall ride in the hay field at the property across the street. We didn't know it at the time, but developers were in the process of buying that farm so they had a drone out making a promotional video of the beautiful rural setting (which they subsequently destroyed with their development, but I digress...). It seemed like it was following us, and did come down close enough that Izzy and I were both very aware of the bzzzzzz sound it made. I will admit that I may have made some choice obscene gestures in its direction encouraging it to leave us alone  Fortunately Izzy was a rockstar and just kept going. 

Months later, when the footage was released by the developers, in the closing scene of the promo video you could in fact see a horse moving across the field, but from very far away so that you wouldn't have known it was me or necessarily even that the horse had a rider. Still, I felt like that was totally inappropriate- don't you have to give consent to be included in video footage?


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## ChasingDreams

@egrogan absolutely, and I think that’s my whole point. I’d rather avoid something escalating into a win or lose type of argument. If I can feel it coming and get him to give just enough to make sure he knows that I’m the one with the final say, but still acknowledge that the situation is causing him anxiety and help alleviate it, then that’s my ultimate goal. I’m thinking it’s the difference between “Ok, I did what you asked and then you quickly brought me safety and comfort” vs. “I did what you asked, and then you bullied me further into a situation that upset me very much, but I survived” 

Most times it does go like you said. A little stronger ask, a little push, and they reluctantly agree. But if after a couple asks you realize it’s going to be a huge disagreement, getting just a few more steps in the direction you want and then “choosing” to go another way before they can start shutting down or ramping up further, can be an option. Now, if there is no other way then, you gotta do what you gotta do 


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## egrogan

Totally agree @*ChasingDreams* ! As I've gotten to know Fizz, I've come to understand that she's a horse that's easy to overload and she really internalizes stress. She is very clear about it as you can see her eyes roll, and then she quickly does a rapid series of deep yawns. I think of that as her "self-soothing" stress reliever as she tries to deal with being pushed too far. She also came to me with using backing up as an evasion, and I can't say we've completely eliminated that, but she does it much less than she used to. It's now generally possible to get her to disengage her hindquarters when she reacts with backing, which then allows you to ride through whatever obstacle it was that she was trying to avoid. 

I often think I'd be a much better rider if I had the opportunity to ride more horses with different ways of moving, but at the same time, I am grateful to have the opportunity to develop such a deep understanding of what makes my two girls "tick" and react the way they do. They are very different horses and have both been great teachers in their own way.


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## Hondo

Dragoon said:


> I have a great photo of me on him bareback, but HF doesn't give the option of uploading anymore?


HF does indeed have the option of uploading a picture from your computer, ...sort of.

1. Click Go Advanced at the bottom of the reply window to bring up more options.

2. Click the paper clip which is the attachment option.

3. Click Choose File in the window that comes up.

4. Navigate to the picture on your computer.

5. Double click the picture or click and select open.

6, Then click Upload in the window. Wait while it up loads.

7. Then click the down arrow to the right of the paper clip.

8. Select Attach.

9. Preview just to make sure. It may take a little longer for the picture to load into the preview window.

Aren't computers just soooo wonderful?? 

Edit: In #8 be sure your cursor is where you want the picture because that's where it will go when you select attach.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I had no idea of the landscapes there other than coniferous forests, having never been. Those are great riding beaches, do you live in riding distance or do you have to trailer out? Those mountains in the background behind the beach look intriguing; are there good climbing trails there?
> 
> ...I'm enjoying your parade of horses; I expect some of them are deceased... Interestingly, I am far more comfortable on wide-backed horses with enormous thoraxes than "normal" horses. What configuration do you find most comfortable?
> 
> ...and have you ever met a bear?


We can walk a mile to the beach from our house, and if I drive 5 minutes south along the main highway I get to the barn where I board the horses. The barn is only a half mile from the beach, so we just ride down there. 

Oregon also has high desert - if you go far enough east it gets very arid. Out there is where the mustangs live. The mountains have great trails. The best riding trails are logging roads up there. Once I get a trailer I want to spend more time riding in the mountains.

Halla and Beau are the two horses that have passed on. Both had Cushing's. I think the narrower the horse, the more comfortable it is for me, but I try to adapt. I am guessing a little more of my leg would be on Sunsmart because I'm shorter, but it looks like quite a wide spread to sit on him. 

The only bear I've seen in the NW ran across the road in front of my car in Washington some years ago. We only have black bears and they are very shy, and there is so much habitat for them away from humans. In the woods I've heard them running away. 

My friends did see one last year, it was scary for her because her dog was only about 6 months old and she was afraid he would try to chase the bear. The baby bear ran across the trail in front of her horse, and just as she saw that flash she heard the mother who was standing on a small hill and making this huffing/barking sound of danger. The only thing she knew to do was move along quickly, calling her dog. Her horse was quite willing to trot away from the bear. She doesn't think the dog saw the bear or figured out what the noise was because he was so low down in the brush.
@Hondo, that was helpful there was someone to give Hondo a sedative for his meltdown. In a situation like that I am all for it. I don't think it's helpful when you're trying to train a horse, because I think it takes away some of their mental capacity to learn, and they also have to learn how to become excited and then calm down, which they can't practice when drugged.

As @ChasingDreams says:


> I’m thinking it’s the difference between “Ok, I did what you asked and then you quickly brought me safety and comfort” vs. “I did what you asked, and then you bullied me further into a situation that upset me very much, but I survived”


For the horse to learn the difference takes some practice.
@Dragoon, hope you can show us the photo.
@phantomhorse13, your post made my day! Shooting down a drone! That is just great.
@bsms, in my opinion there are many similarities between people who have dementia or are in a fight-or-flight state and horses that are feeling overwhelmed or in that state. I often use my experiences with horses to understand the approach needed for a human patient.

As you said, there can't be too much stimulation. Also, just like with horses, sometimes they respond better if you use sharp, loud commands and sometimes that will make them too excited. Sometimes you have to be very calm and speak softly. 
You have to know when to back off and not push too hard, otherwise it may explode into violence.

Just like with horses, "He defends himself." Without a clear understanding of the reason behind what you are asking, either horse or human can get so defensive they hit, kick or bite. Tiny old women can fight like wildcats. Better not to go there.
Worst case, as with Hondo, you resort to drugs for everyone's safety.

I find that horses have taught me so many things that help with human patients. Also, if things do explode, it is easy for me to remain calm, keep thinking, watching and avoiding contact with the striking parts. If you've had giant horses go ballistic and swing at you, humans seem smaller and less damaging. They are dangerous too, but the experiences with horses sure help.


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## gottatrot

Sometimes I wonder why I don't feel sad more often about losing Halla. Last night I was looking at the stars, and I was thinking that when you see a shooting star, the feeling you get is excitement over seeing it rather than sadness that it lasts such a short time. I think that is how Halla was. She burned so bright in my life, and burned out fast, but I am just glad to have had the glimpse of that brightness.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Sometimes I wonder why I don't feel sad more often about losing Halla. Last night I was looking at the stars, and I was thinking that when you see a shooting star, the feeling you get is excitement over seeing it rather than sadness that it lasts such a short time. I think that is how Halla was. She burned so bright in my life, and burned out fast, but I am just glad to have had the glimpse of that brightness.


That's a lovely way to think about it. My worst horse loss was a 32-year-old Arabian mare I'd had for 31 years and trained on my own from the time I got her as a yearling; she was literally my best buddy from middle childhood right through to middle age. A couple of hours after she was put down (pedunculated lipoma interfering with intestines) and we'd buried her and I'd tended to all the other animals, I had a chance to stop. I sat on the grass and looked at the setting sun and was acutely aware that this was the first time in over three decades that I was breathing and she was not. It was a physical change to the universe for me very like the moon being taken from the sky.

But above all it's life I celebrate, her life, our lives, life in general. We had to put down Sunsmart's mother (28, pituitary tumour) last November and she actually had an open burial in the middle of our bushland, because it was summer and it's so much easier for the nutrients to go back into the ecosystem if you don't bury them under a heap of soil - and since we don't do chemical euthanasia, it's not going to poison the scavengers either. And somehow I take comfort in the building blocks of a lovely animal at the end of its life making the grass greener and the flowers brighter and giving birds the power to fly, etc etc. There is something really profound in that, in the whole cycle of nature. And those shooting stars you saw remind me that we are all stardust - the elements that make us up were created by dying suns.

And that process is also amazing:


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## gottatrot

Yesterday Hero went for his longest ride to date (about 7 miles) . 

It was about as long as the ride we did several months ago where I had to get off and walk/pony him because he got overfaced and turned into a "baby head." But we've gradually worked up to this distance and we went much faster than that previous ride, so it was the ride with the greatest effort for him. 

I came the closest to falling off him yet, just a few yards away from leaving the barn when Max, the barn Lab chased a big coyote out of the bushes and across our path. Nala was in front and startled, but Hero leaped to one side and I literally had to jump for the stirrup that was shooting away from me. But I landed on the saddle. Whew. 

It was a great ride. I wanted to gallop, but Hero kept putting his head low at the canter and I didn't want to let him accelerate in that posture. The only horses I know that gallop with low heads are reiners in a controlled arena setting. They are planning short bursts of speed and fast deceleration.









I know this TB does not naturally canter or gallop with his head low in the field, and feel it is due to his bit since I've had him cantering with his head higher. This new Myler, it seems great and has the tongue relief, yes. But I have noticed it seems like it will contact his palate unless he holds his head tucked in a bit, which perhaps is something people are looking for. But I'm wanting to gallop over rough terrain and I want Hero's head up for balance, and sight. Not to mention each stride I knew that he would be able to drop his head lower in a second and kick that hind end up powerfully, and knew I was one heartbeat away from a giant wallop of a buck.

Thankfully, what I felt from my horse was that he finally understood he was working, and that he needed to save some energy. So there was no bucking, just some powerful snorts as we cantered and trotted at a good pace down the beach. We made it to our wooded trail, and I am not sure if Hero had ever been in the woods before. He was quite nervous, and I tested our steering weaving between the tree trunks which suddenly seemed a lot closer together than when I rode on the compact Halla.
But on the way back through the woods, he was much calmer and walked. We had a great ride all the way home.

Today Hero rested since I was able to get permission to put my barn girl on Penny, the big draft cross. 








She did great, although she did fall off. :???:
Penny made a sudden turn down a hill and cantered three steps, which unseated barn girl. I'd warned her that Penny was used to doing her own thing, and after her lovely tuck and roll (she said, "I'm sure glad you made me wear a helmet!") we talked about how she hadn't been paying attention and had Penny on a loose rein, which she had not been able to gather up in time to prevent the take off. We practiced some sharp turns to the right and left, so she could get used to managing Penny's speed and direction.

My ride was Pinky, Penny's mother.








The last four or five rides, Pinky's owner has tried to go for a ride but needed to get off and lead her back. She has separation anxiety and it does not help to take her daughter Penny along, she only cares about Sizzler, the gelding in their pasture. 

When I pushed Penny away from the barn she crow hopped, and kept trying to put her head up and rush through the bit. The feeling I had was of a green horse that was also not confident. She was bought from an auction (unknowingly pregnant with Penny), and has a brand and unknown history. Very little riding time since then. She was easy to push through her fears and to get unstuck.

Her nerves did not affect Penny, whose little rush down the hill seemed based on a random thought rather than a spook or being upset. We did not go to the beach because I felt Pinky needed more time just going around the fields with a confident rider, and we walked mainly, working on following bit, seat and leg cues. The couple of times we trotted Pinky stiffened and it took a lot to get her to relax. 

By the end of the ride, both horses were very relaxed. I talked to barn girl about her confidence after falling and how I didn't want to overface her either, but she seems like a tough kid, minimized her fall and was keen to help with Penny's problems. Next time we'll go out with Hero, since he and Penny have been very calm together. I'll talk to Pinky's owner about maybe riding her out some so she can get more confident.

I can't talk to my journal and keep it brief...
Amore seemed hot and lethargic after standing in the sun while I trimmed her hooves after our ride. So I hosed her off, which made her suddenly spunky. When I turned her back out in the field, she went to roll immediately and Nala came to politely watch over her. Amore stood up, turned and flat out kicked Nala who looked so surprised it was quite funny. Nala's head went up and she trotted off, and Amore followed, swishing her tail in annoyance because it was wet and now sandy too. Poor Nala.


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## horseluvr2524

I love those powerful snorts. Thoroughbreds have such a different feel to them, like riding a real powerhouse. Or maybe it's just that the only truly large horses I have ridden (taller than 15hh) are thoroughbreds, and maybe that's just the way most/all big horses feel.

I feel like with bigger horses, a rider has more time to stay with the horse, things tend to happen in slow motion. But with the little guys like my mare or Amore, they are here one second and gone out from under you the next before you even realize what happened. It always makes me laugh to think back to my jumping trainer's baffled look when Shan shot out to avoid a jump so quickly. Little firecracker.

Sounds like your barn girl has a great attitude. Yay! I'm always actually very eager to share horses with others, but it's hard to find those who have the right combination of good attitude, dedication, and interest. Most are either all talk and no action, or just have bad attitudes and won't respect the way you want things done with your horses.


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## tinyliny

I agree, about little vs big horses. I always say, if you can ride a little horse, you can ride ANYTHING>!

I do love a big horse. I love the plus sized center of gravity, and how forgiving it is. And, the feel, when the 'engine' really kicks in is spectacular, like riding a locomotive!


edit:
the few times I have galloped X, he does so with his head in that 'reiners' position.


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## Dragoon

I hope someday i get to experience what a gallop is! 

With only an indoor and a sand outdoor arena available, it probably won't ever happen...
I do wonder if my former lesson horse pony has ever galloped in his life? How much space do they need?

I did witness a real horse gallop recently. The standardbred mare in the biggest pen was eating at the front and hadn't noticed the hay feeder was moved. (Her pen is L shaped). When she finally looked around her, she bolted from one end to the other! It was awesome! And from the strange sound, I just knew it was a four beat gallop! It was like the movies!


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## bsms

When Mia cantered in the "reiner's position", it felt like we were going to flip. I had to work to get her head up, which helped her get off her front end. Her conformation, like Bandit, doesn't support racing around with the nose near the ground. It would scare the tar out of me if Bandit dropped his head that low cantering on uneven ground.

FWIW...I know nothing about how horses are built or how it affects their movement. Got an email from Larry Trocha with a link to this video he did on what is or is not a good build for a cutting horse or reiner. It is the first video I've seen where I kind of understood what a certain sport might look for in a horse:






After watching it, I could see where Bandit has some serious faults for reining, but how those faults might be fine for what we do. And Bandit also has some very good points. Don't know if I kind of understood it because Trocha did a good job of explaining, or if I am just getting experienced enough to figure out what he was saying.

PS: I've very rarely galloped, @Dragoon. When Mia galloped, it meant she had lost her mind with excitement - and I didn't have any place safe for letting her run until she got her emotions under control. That was a horrible feeling!

It has left me afraid to trust Bandit at times, but Bandit doesn't deserve that fear. The few times Bandit has galloped, I think he just felt more comfortable switching gears. Stayed sensible, though.


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## gottatrot

I agree that the little horses are the most difficult to stick to. People say that large horses are so strong, but I've found personally that the speed at which a small horse can move, along with less real estate underneath you far outweighs any strength advantage. 
Would you rather slide off from higher up slowly, or be quickly ejected closer to the ground? I was trained by the best, Amore. I quite dislike bucking horses, but comparatively the bucking I've experienced on every other horse has been at 1/4 the speed and 1/4 the intensity that Amore would do. It has been quite pleasant for me to discover that there can be time to think about how to respond to a bucking horse instead of merely feeling like someone punched you three times on the way to the ground. 



Dragoon said:


> I hope someday i get to experience what a gallop is!
> 
> With only an indoor and a sand outdoor arena available, it probably won't ever happen...
> I do wonder if my former lesson horse pony has ever galloped in his life? How much space do they need?


I've seen quite a few people gallop a horse in an arena. There was a teen girl at one place I boarded who taught her horse to gallop the long side of the arena, accelerate quickly and then drop back into a canter for the corner. She'd lean forward and yee haw. It seemed like both she and the horse enjoyed it. 

I personally have seen Amore hit a gallop in a small runout pipe corral. She used to spook a lot with a four beat gallop for two strides and then stop. We also used to have our horses "launch" up some of the mountain trails and they could hit gallop in a stride or two, just like racehorses can coming out of the starting gate. So it doesn't require much space, as long as the horse can stop. 
@bsms, that was an interesting video. Many things such as having a short cannon bone, sloping shoulder, good chest, etc apply ideally to all sport horses in my opinion. I think some people can be hyper-critical of our own horses' conformation, I know I am. Others don't want to be realistic though, and I think it's better to err on the side of noticing your horse's faults so you can make allowance for them.

******************************************************************************************
Just paid a little more than I should have for a saddle on Ebay. A few years ago I had two saddles I loved, both Lovatt and Ricketts. Amore went in my Ellipse dressage saddle and Halla went in the All Purpose. Along the way, Halla's crooked shoulders became something I wanted to work on, and I went to the Ghost treeless, which helped immensely. Which helped me realize the All Purpose saddle seat was too small and was making me tilt my pelvis forward. So I sold it. Have missed it ever since! 
When Halla ended up being my main riding horse, I found myself using the Ellipse more and more. The L & R saddles are so comfortable, not to mention I noticed my horses' back muscles always got stronger and rounder as I used them.

Tried another several brands and finally decided I wanted another L & R. Ideally I wanted to try the endurance models, either a Rubicon or Solstice. They are extremely hard to find in good condition used, for any reasonable price. My hope is that the balance will be similar to the All Purpose I had, a little more forward seat than the dressage saddle. So when a Wide Solstice came up on Ebay in my seat size I ended up bidding on it.
Hopefully it will fit Hero....he fits my Wide Ellipse well. 

My free and cheapo horses go out in quite expensive saddles, LOL.


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## Hondo

Interesting about the small horse thing. Hondo measures about exactly 14hh. One person on the ranch has only been unseated by one horse, Hondo. Another said he was too dangerous to ride above a walk. The first person was actually unseated at a walk.

Hondo is short, stocky, and maybe a tad chubby, but I've seen him do some moves during an oncoming storm that made my eyes bug out.

As far as conformation, temperament, and so on, Hondo was the only possibility for me to have a horse when I got him. As it turned out (finally), I think I got lucky. I only rode one horse on the ranch before Hondo and that was for only two rides. Hondo will likely be the only horse I'll ever ride.


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## Dragoon

Hondo said:


> Hondo will likely be the only horse I'll ever ride.


Only because you are in love with your pony! 

Thanks for the pic attachment advice, BTW. I tried several times and keep getting service error messages. Will try again randomly...


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## bsms

Bandit gallops while playing inside the corral, and the corral's maximum length is 90 feet. He rarely gallops with me. I think he feels me tense up inside when he shifts to a gallop. Memories of Mia galloping out of control rise up out of my subconscious and punch me in the gut. Bandit feels the result and slows.

Watching Bandit gallop and twist and turn inside the corral, playing with Trooper, is why I've concluded my horse's agility is limited primarily by my getting in his way, either by weight or bad balance or by trying to impose MY ideas of balance onto him. A horse who can move like that in such a tight space doesn't need ME telling him how to turn or accelerate or slow! He just needs me to get out of his way.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> A horse who can move like that in such a tight space doesn't need ME telling him how to turn or accelerate or slow! He just needs me to get out of his way.


This made me laugh to myself. For some reason I was thinking of riding Amore, and the term "get out of his way" made me think of how little and spry she is and what a fine line between getting out of the way and falling off her. 

A co-worker always asks when she can come out and do horse massage. She is eccentric, very kind and volunteers weekly at the wildlife sanctuary. I've had her out to see the horses once before, so today I agreed to meet. Then I got to bed late after work, so texted to cancel. She never responded, and I remembered that her cell reception is spotty where she lives. 
Made it out of bed, so went to the barn unsure if she'd show up or not.

At the barn, Nala's rider and Penny's owner were meeting up for a short ride around the property to test an endurance saddle Nala's rider thought might fit Penny. The fit was off quite a bit, but not in a way that would hurt the horse. It had a good channel width but it sat high off the back. Waiting for my co-worker, I half hoped she wouldn't show so I could hop on Hero. But she came driving in. The others rode off without me.

My co-worker has had some experience with human massage but not with horses. Her body language is all wrong for horses, and she is loud and makes sudden moves. Yet it is very odd, but the horses accept her, right up in their personal space. It was intriguing for me to watch. I put some feed in Hero's feeder, and brought him up to stand eating while my friend massaged him. She wanted to help me brush him off, so I handed her a very soft brush and she did it all wrong, pushing hard against the lay of the coat. Yet Hero barely protested, and I can't even touch him with a stiff brush or he tells me about it. 

As soon as she put her hands on him, he just relaxed into the pressure and his eyes were soft. When she found a sore spot, he'd stop chewing his food, but he didn't visibly protest at all. She has some kind of magic hands or something. 

After working Hero over, she went to work on Amore, who also just stood for her and didn't startle at her sudden movements. So strange. There must be something else reassuring about her that the horses sense besides her outward actions. She is a kind person, that is for sure.


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## Hondo

This post just reaffirms to me what I'm coming to believe more and more on an almost daily basis about the depth to which a horse can read the human soul.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...For some reason I was thinking of riding Amore, and the term "get out of his way" made me think of how little and spry she is and what a fine line between getting out of the way and falling off her.....


One thing I'm noticing is that "staying out of his way" also makes "staying on" harder! Not surprising, since the faster he can accelerate or change directions, the tougher it can be to stay with him.



> "It was true that...the encumbrance of my reins seemed to be an outstanding recollection. *Portia, untutored and untaught, had developed for herself a way of turning very similar to that of the American cow-ponies.* At my signal, down would go her nose, her front feet would jam into the ground, and she would swivel round on a pivot.
> 
> *Frequently the action was so sudden and so complete that I had difficulty in keeping up with her.* Often the momentum carried by my body was so great that had it not been for the knee-pads on my Toptani saddle, I am sure I would have sailed into space. *When turning like this, Portia never showed the slightest tendency to slip...not only without losing speed but without loss of balance*. As soon as I got used to turning on the edge of a precipice (as this felt like) I quite enjoyed it." - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, Page 144


Consider this spook:








​
Apart from the head still looking toward the threat, that is pretty close to how Bandit will suddenly reverse course in the corral.

If I try to ride it out "properly", maintaining a vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel, I'm screwed. It is like when Larry Trocha was asked why he didn't teach a "classical seat". He said it was because he taught cutting and reining and he wanted his students to stay on their horse!

But suppose the above rider was about to ASK the horse to suddenly reverse course, and put his right foot forward and leaned back and left as it started. He'd stay with the horse and the horse would have gone from

"_Westward Ho!_"​
to 

"_East bound and down 
load it up and truck it
We gonna do what they say can't be done
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there
I'm east bound *just watch ol' Bandit run*_"
​


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## gottatrot

This is the Hero today in his new Solstice L & R saddle.








Was planning to ride out to meet Cassanova's rider on the beach. At the barn I realized I didn't have a plan B - I'd brought the new saddle which had just arrived, but no other saddle in case it didn't fit. 
Well, it fit about perfect. Whew. 

Unfortunately, my longest mohair girth was a real struggle to get on the first billet hole on each side. Since this took me awhile, I decided to lead Hero down to the beach in case he dawdled. He followed me quite briskly, all the way down to the top of the dunes where we ran into a gigantic elk herd.

Why is it that whenever I'm trying to take Hero out alone we find all the elk? Being spring, I was wary. Sure enough, the space cushion that earlier in the year was acceptable was no longer acceptable to the elk. But there was nowhere else to go, because about 30 elk ranged across an eight of a mile north, and about 30 elk ranged across an eight of a mile south. That's all the beach access I have. 

We eased through, with me yelling and staring whenever the elk started rushing in. Several females seemed determined to drive us off. One charged up, Hero ran away to the end of the reins, and I waved my arms but was ready to bolt too (the plan was to hide behind Hero - she was much smaller than him). She pulled up, stamping her hooves. 

Hero was excited but not freaked, actually. I guess he thought we'd made it through before so we'd do it again. Gradually we made it through the middle of the herd and to the beach.

Cass' rider was ponying Brave. We had a great ride, trotting out at least a mile straight and doing some cantering too. It was great to hear she felt Hero had made a lot of progress in his training since we'd last ridden together several months ago. 
Three geldings trotting, Brave, Cass and Hero.
32483680 187263258661887 4845853601114882048 n

Cass' rider can canter with two horses and control them both. Pretty amazing to me.
Thankfully the elk had scattered quite a bit by the time our ride was over, so we had a much better space cushion coming back through the herd. 

Love the saddle, it's like my dressage saddle only better. The wool panels are soft and giving. After the ride the sweat marks were perfectly even on either side of the spine, and the gap between was wide. Looked great. I feel that the ability to get my leg a little forward will help since Hero has that kind of balance. Good thing my TB fits Arab saddles since they are what I like best.

What I can't believe is how dry people let their leather get. This is the third saddle I've bought recently that had dry, stiff panels. L & R saddles have wonderful quality leather and my Ellipse that arrived all stiff and dry to me a few years ago has soft, flexible panels that roll in the hand. That is despite me riding it on the salty beach and only wiping it off about every 3rd ride. You just need a good leather conditioner (I love Stubben Hamanol), and I only put it on several times a year. 

This saddle was so dry it felt like you could almost crack the panels if you bent them hard. I conditioned it before our ride, and conditioned it again after. It's already much softer although not quite as good as my Ellipse yet.


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## ChasingDreams

I love that picture, Hero looks so happy and focused and I can see the adoration on your face ❤ Glad the new saddle is working out! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phantomhorse13

Dragoon said:


> I hope someday i get to experience what a gallop is!


Here you go! This was my race-bred mare, who as you can see had to start well in the back or else would have quickly out-paced everyone (including the bay, who was himself a very good racehorse).







Galloping is amazing, though now I am old enough that I need to be on a horse I trust in a place I consider safe to do it..


@gottatrot : that new saddle looks great on Hero! did the girth stretch out any or will you have to get a new one? don't envy you all the elk encounters, yikes.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> @gottatrot : that new saddle looks great on Hero! did the girth stretch out any or will you have to get a new one?


Love the video! Looks like great fun. I don't think the mohair will stretch, ugh, I'll have to get another one just two inches longer. For now he'll have to get by with an older fleece or synthetic girth. I'm wary/picky because Amore was so sensitive about what girth I used. 

This was funny, I put the horses in the outdoor arena to hang out after riding Hero. They milled around grazing, and I carried the saddle back to the barn. When I came walking back to the arena, Amore saw me and acted like I was a bear coming out of the woods. She blew the loudest snorts and then started running around. Once she figured out it was me, she still was perky and got Hero running around too. 

I pulled my phone out of my back jeans pocket to video, not realizing the lense was fogged over. So I call this the "Dream Sequence." :smile:


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'll have to get another one just two inches longer.


What size are you looking for and what is your budget? This next ride we are going to has had a tack yard sale in the past so never know what treasures I might find.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> What size are you looking for and what is your budget? This next ride we are going to has had a tack yard sale in the past so never know what treasures I might find.


I'll go measure tomorrow. That would be great if you spotted one! Any mohair one in the right size would be fine. I usually like the ones with the padding under the buckles but the billets on the solstice are short so the buckles won't be against the horse anyway.
They usually cost $80-$100+ so anything around $60 or less would be a good deal.

Today I rode with the barn girl, she went on Penny and I took Hero. It was a great ride, we went down to the beach and both horses were extremely calm and mellow. We just walked and trotted a little, I'm trying to make sure barn girl has good control of her seat and reins. This was the first time Hero walked all the way home on a loose rein without getting excited. We also opened the gate from horseback. Good progress!

I'm feeling very guilty because I couldn't stop myself from commenting to the ebay seller who sold me my Solstice saddle. Very nicely (I really think I was nice), I told her that I loved the saddle but wanted to share a tip about using saddle conditioner to keep her leather from getting too dried out. She was the kindest person and actually thanked me and is sending me some saddle conditioner! What a great seller, I wish I could leave a second positive feedback. I hope she'll be happier with her more supple saddles in the future. :smile:

Since we were up at the time, we watched the horse procession in England after the royal wedding. Not sure if any of you saw the one gray that was too excited and couldn't trot but kept breaking into a canter. At one point he nearly backed into the fence, and I sympathized so much with his rider, who was doing a stellar job of letting his energy out a bit at a time. What pressure that must have been, to keep that horse from coming unglued or ending up in the crowd.


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## gottatrot

@phantomhorse13, the mohair girth I have that is too short is 41 inches. So I'd need one somewhere between 43 and 46 inches. Thanks for offering to keep an eye out for me! They're difficult to find in the longer lengths.

What type of girths do you use for endurance?


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## Hondo

I'd worry some about a used mohair unless I was certain of the brand. There are so many out there that are "blended" mohair which translates to mostly regular wool.

I have some of those for packing and they seem to pick up debris and stickers much worse that 100% mohair.

I don't think I've ever seen a mohair listed that long. But I've only looked at western.

What brand do you have? I'm wondering if you'll have to have a custom one made.


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## Knave

Not saying for quality, but amazon has one left from ovation at 44” for like 35 dollars. I don’t they are real, but I use one on my English saddle and it seems to be fine.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> So I'd need one somewhere between 43 and 46 inches. They're difficult to find in the longer lengths.
> 
> What type of girths do you use for endurance?


I am not sure I have ever seen a mohair so long, but maybe hadn't noticed them since I wasn't looking. I will certainly keep an eye out!


All of our current saddles have long billets, so everyone goes in some kind of dressage girth. George and Sultan go in 24" fleece ones (Toklat brand mainly, tho we do have one Running Bear for training) and Phin a 22" synthetic gel one (a shaped Ovation). 

Dream was the only one who had a saddle with short billets and she went in a 44" fleece (Toklat for competitions, but I did have a few no-name ones for training).


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## horseluvr2524

Hero is looking so good! He looks far less awkward now. I'll be honest that I wondered if he might always look a little awkward, a little out of proportion. But he looks like a real thoroughbred now. It's amazing what a difference good food/management and riding make!


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> Hero is looking so good! He looks far less awkward now. I'll be honest that I wondered if he might always look a little awkward, a little out of proportion. But he looks like a real thoroughbred now. It's amazing what a difference good food/management and riding make!


Thanks! I think he'll look even better at the end of the summer after some more good rides. He needs some more neck, but changing a noodle neck takes some time in my experience. 
Cass' owner said when she first saw him she thought a committee had decided what parts to use when they put him together. She thinks he's getting much better. 

My longest mohair girth is one of these:









My two favorite ones are Montana Cincha and they are so much fancier with the buckle padding and shape.









I rode in a synthetic fleece girth the other day and it was fine, but we didn't go far.









With Amore I ended up going to the mohair because of her forward girth groove. The only place the girth fit was right behind her elbow, so it had to be flat. The mohair gets the flattest and melds right into the horse so her elbow was able to always clear without rubbing. Halla did not have issues like that, so I used various girths. But her muscles under her girth developed and got very big, and I noticed that when I used other girths they seemed to get a little tender when I pushed under the bottom of her chest. Went back to the mohair and had no issues. My theory was that the multiple strands distribute the pressure better.

They don't look very nice, and get lots of horse hair embedded. Maybe every couple months I wash them and they take forever to dry. Shampoo works good. But the long, unshaped one seems to work just as well as the fancy ones. 

I've thought maybe Hero doesn't need the Mohair. But he seems to have very sensitive skin. I'm not sure if there is any correlation between sensitive and thin/easy to rub or not. I have to only use very soft brushes on him, because he objects otherwise. So I've thought natural fibers might be best. But I haven't seen signs of rubbing or issues like that. 

I'm very undecided about what kind of saddle pad to get for him. I don't like just my Thinline that is a dressage square. I'm debating about a Supracor half pad. But something needs to go over that under the rest of the saddle. Part of me thinks with his sensitive skin he might like one that has merino wool all around the edges. It seems like that would not rub anywhere.
I had issue with the edges of the flaps rubbing sometimes on Halla.








Then of course you can get pads that are completely wool on the underside.








I've thought about the woolback or coolback pads from Toklat, but the saddle fits so well I don't want or need a super thick pad. Shock absorption is helpful but I prefer without too much thickness. Nala's rider just uses wool half pads and regular cotton pads underneath. But she's not super picky like me, and honestly I believe her saddle fit is a little narrow because Nala never develops the really strong, flat back muscles on top. It wouldn't surprise me if her back hurts a bit.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'm very undecided about what kind of saddle pad to get for him. I don't like just my Thinline that is a dressage square.
> 
> I've thought about the woolback or coolback pads from Toklat, but the saddle fits so well I don't want or need a super thick pad. Shock absorption is helpful but I prefer without too much thickness.


What don't you like about the thinline? Is it rubbing him somewhere?

Agree you shouldn't need a thick pad with the Solstice having such nice wool panels.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> What don't you like about the thinline? Is it rubbing him somewhere?


I am just a little paranoid, my bias is that TBs tend to have fragile skin. My friend used to say it wasn't a ride unless her horse was bleeding somewhere. She took every precaution, but any little sticker or twig would scratch her horse. I like the Thinline part of the pad, it just feels like there should be more than thin cotton under the flaps. Halla managed to get a rub through it from the back of a flap.


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## gottatrot

I thought I'd give an update. I'd mentioned that Hero was stalling out at the top of the hill near the barn, and it was becoming a habit I wanted to break him of. My theory was that if I fed him treats in that area, and then worked him a little farther from the barn each time before giving the treats, he would get over thinking that it was a negative thing to go past that point.

We never know if our theories will work until we try them. I tried the treats and making it positive, but he still was stalling out. I tried several other approaches - walking him with another horse and having him either follow or go side by side. Using the pull and release method, which I wanted to teach him anyway, so that was good to work on (pull with a steady, not too strong pressure and wait, reward each step forward with a complete release and praise). None of these worked to fix the stalling out. 

What actually got through to him was interesting. Every time we left the barn, I started just marching forward with Hero on a loose lead, not looking at him, as though I expected him to follow. I played out the line behind me until I reached the end, but kept walking at the same speed. When I hit the end, I would act very surprised and upset that my horse was not following me. The first time I rushed back at him and stomped my feet, then turned and marched forward again. When I hit the end of the line again, I acted surprised and upset, and then he started walking with me. Once we were walking along together, I praised him.

We did that scenario a couple more times. Now he is just walking with me on a loose lead past that point. I guess even if he was hesitating because of a negative experience, he still doesn't want to have me hit the end of the line and get angry with him. In the beginning I believe I was stopping my forward motion in response to his pressure, which was not uncomfortable for him. My walking into the end of the line was uncomfortable. So he is learning to stay moving when I am moving.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I'm debating about a Supracor half pad. But something needs to go over that under the rest of the saddle.


Is the half pad smaller than the saddle footprint?


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I am just a little paranoid, my bias is that TBs tend to have fragile skin. My friend used to say it wasn't a ride unless her horse was bleeding somewhere. She took every precaution, but any little sticker or twig would scratch her horse. I like the Thinline part of the pad, it just feels like there should be more than thin cotton under the flaps.


That first part sounds like Phin 100% in terms of being Mr Sensitive and the bleeding from somewhere every ride. And you know everything I went through with him to find the right girth. But for all that, he did just fine with a plain quilted cotton pad and the thinline under his saddle - even the Pandora which only has relatively thin panels vs the big flocked ones of the Rubicon.

Before you make yourself too crazy (and spend money on a new pad), see how he does in your current pad. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to buy anything at all?!


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, the panels will easily fit on the half pad but the flaps of the saddle extend farther down.



phantomhorse13 said:


> Before you make yourself too crazy (and spend money on a new pad), see how he does in your current pad. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to buy anything at all?!


Yes, you are so right. The voice of wisdom. :smile:

Today was spring vaccines and dentals for the horses.

Amore still has decent teeth left in her mouth at 27, due to good dental care over the last 13 years. 

Hero has a bit of an overbite, which is something I had slightly noticed but not thought a whole lot about yet. The vet pointed out that he had hooks preventing his jaw from moving right. He also had ulcerations in his cheeks, was definitely overdue for a dental.

The overbite means the jaw doesn't slide back quite as far, so the upper front molars and lower back molars (if I remember right) get hooks on the end that restrict the jaw motion even more. The vet said that the restricted jaw prevents jaw relaxation and poll flexion, because the jaw must slide back and forth to move the poll well. It will be interesting to see how that will affect him. 

Hero made the vet laugh because he was trying to talk even when under sedation and with the speculum in his mouth. I think he was trying to snort or squeal but it came out like a burp. I told her he was a dramatic fellow. She was using her "backup" speculum because recently at another boarding barn, my friend's horse Indy, the 17+ hand gelding had cracked the metal on her usual speculum by moving his powerful jaw. 

Hero was sporting his new rope halter. I'm trying out burgundy and royal blue for his colors.









After the sedation, I put the horses near the tie rack. Hero crept over and leaned his head against Amore. Very cute. Hero was very good about getting stuck with needles, which is a relief after dealing with Halla's needle phobia for so long. 






















Amore, slightly more awake.
















She is down to a small handful (literally) of hay daily and a handful of beet pulp with her vitamins now. We're in the height of grass growth right now, and her weight is just borderline so I think she'll maintain or lose a little now. She really enjoys having grazing 24/7. She's almost completely shed out, which is great for a horse her age with Cushing's. The vet thinks her topline looks good too.


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## Hondo

Cute

I was just thinking about my question lounging outside when it dawned on me you were talking about the flaps below the half pad.

The endurance model would solve that consideration but it might be too large for your preferences. It's a little stiffer than the half pad also.

I have some small pieces of the endurance pad left from my multiple operations I could send if you wanted to check the firmness. It would be a piece I would not need returned.

But the endurance model might just be too large. The dimensions should be on the Supracor site.


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## SueC

Dragoon said:


> I did witness a real horse gallop recently. The standardbred mare in the biggest pen was eating at the front and hadn't noticed the hay feeder was moved. (Her pen is L shaped). When she finally looked around her, she bolted from one end to the other! It was awesome! And from the strange sound, I just knew it was a four beat gallop! *It was like the movies!*


That's just people beating coconuts together in the studio. ;-) I believe the film term is called "foley work": _The reproduction of everyday sound effects that are added to film, video, and other media in post-production to enhance audio quality. These reproduced sounds can be anything from the swishing of clothing and footsteps to squeaky doors and breaking glass. (Thanks Wikipedia!)_

Hope everyone is well and happy!  Have some catching up to do here after a busy time with hazard reduction burning this past fortnight. :cowboy: My horse probably thinks he's retired; hopefully I can get back in the saddle by the weekend!


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## Hondo

I own stock in Supracor so I gotta keep pushing them

I have wondered why they did not have a softer version of the endurance model on the order of the soft and thinner dressage model.

Well shoot, I now see that they do. It'l called the Supracor Racing Cool Grip. Supracor Saddle Pad Products - Racing Cool Grip<sup>®</sup>

Unfortunately, (for me), I don't see the soft version in a Western pad.

I'm wondering if the Racing version is new because I sure don't remember seeing it before.


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## tinyliny

I have a dressage Supracore. I used to use it a lot, and loved it, but it is a bit bulky for a tight fitting saddle, as I now have. 
Do others reallly use and like Supracore?

Do you think Thinline is worth the big $'s they ask?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I have a dressage Supracore. I used to use it a lot, and loved it, but it is a bit bulky for a tight fitting saddle, as I now have.
> Do others reallly use and like Supracore?
> 
> Do you think Thinline is worth the big $'s they ask?


 @Hondo recommends the Supracor, and I've read other reviews from endurance riders and eventers who really like it.

I'm not sure about the Thinline. I think it does help with shock absorption, but part of me thinks it is so thin how much can it help? It definitely is better than just a cotton pad though. I needed a very thin pad to fit under my dressage saddle for Halla, but I wanted the ability to shim the front a tiny bit, which is why I got the Thinline. The shims are so small I don't think they really lift the saddle.

To be honest, I think there are probably a lot of different pads a person could use that would be effective for keeping a horse's back cool, shock absorption, filling in any slight fit issues, etc. I've heard great things about Skito pads, Toklat Coolback and Woolback pads, EcoGold, the Protector/Corrector pad, Lamfell pads, Grandeur pads, Equipedic, 5 Star pads, etc...

I was never one to find saddle pads very complicated in the past. When I rode western, my diamond wool pad was 1 inch thick, seemed to work perfectly and that was all I used. It took forever to dry, but I didn't find that I needed to wash it very often. 
When I switched to english, all I knew was cotton pads and that is what I used. Even for long rides and LD. 

Then I got a couple treeless saddles with their fancy schmancy pads. It got me reading about shimming and cooling and shock absorption and etc. Then I started spending way too much for a pad, and experimenting with a lot of things. 

My problem is that even when I don't notice problems, I start wondering about the ideal. What if my horse would rather not have his pad dripping wet at the end of a ride, and what if with shock absorption he'd feel like a million bucks and his back muscles would bulk up like a body builder and he'd dream about going for rides? Ha ha. 

I always wish that horses could talk, although Hero talks more than most. My DH was trying to brush him tonight but was pressing too firmly and Hero was slinging his head back and glaring and my DH was like, "What?" 
I said, "He's telling you to brush very gently." 
"Well, does he have to tell me so loudly?" 

Thinking of myself, it made a big difference when dri fit came on the scene, along with gore-tex. Back in the day, I'd run in sweat pants that got heavier and heavier the longer I ran in the rain, or else in non-breathable rainwear that held all my sweat inside until I felt like I was taking a bath inside my clothes. Backpacks used to plaster to your back, and sit too low or bounce around. Now I can carry weight so easily on a hike, with the air flow going between my back and the pack and snugged up ergonomically.

So, since horses can't talk, I wonder how much of a difference a the right saddle pad can make...


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I wonder


A disease I've found no cure for.


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## bsms

It would be nice if equine research focused more on practical issues for common riders rather than specialized issues like "Is rollkur bad for horses". Heck, it is tough to find ANY research done on western horses or western riding. I'd guess 90% of the research articles I find start with "Eight Warmblood horses equipped with fitted dressage saddles..."

There was a recent thread on mounting and dismounting - something everyone does when they ride, in some fashion or another. I found some references that speculated doing X or Y was harmful, but others indicated the pressures were below what happens all the time while riding. And again, the research was done with dressage saddles. So if one dismounts in the most common western style, using a western saddle, just what ARE the pressures?

Many threads wrestle with how heavy a rider can be. I read an article last week arguing some vets and 'experts' recommend riders not exceed 15% of the horse's weight, or even 10%. An article linked a few days ago on HF argued just putting a saddle on a horse for 10 minutes could damage its back. Why not check some ranch horses carrying 25% or more for 10+ hour days in the mountains for a couple of weeks, and see if those 2 weeks have any discernible effect?

Here is an odd one. The clip below has John Wayne galloping using what I'd call a very Old West approach to riding. NOT how I'd feel comfortable at a gallop at all. But...what ARE the pressures like on a horse's back? I'm certain they would be higher, but how much higher? And did a horse that size galloping with a man that size, using that approach, do any harm to the horse's back? Because if it didn't, it would put the lie to many arguments about how heavy a rider could be...






I've got so many questions, but no one with money seems interested in finding the answers. :evil:

"*A disease I've found no cure for.*" - @Hondo

I hope and pray you are never cured of it! Too many never catch it.


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## Hondo

Watched that clip several times. Have no idea what type of rider JW is but he sure seemed stuck to that saddle. But I kept looking at the front of the saddle. Looked as if it were sliding forward and backward. Must just be the undulations of the neck muscles.

On the weight carrying capacity. It's been said many times that the rider makes a huge difference. Each time read that I think of my two daughters who are 14 months apart. The second was heavier built so they weighed about the same at the same time. One was super heavy to carry while the other was light as a feather almost it seemed. But to the bathroom scales, the weighed about the same.

Although I completed college with a BS in math and a minor in science plus 50 semester hours after graduation, I am the only person in my graduating class that did not graduate. Most did not even attend college.

I'm of the opinion that my continued curiosity and passion for learning well past adult life and into my, ahem-golden years, is primarily due to my refusal to submit to what I viewed, at the time at least, as a tyrannical dominance over me. I'm still a little bit that way.

I think too many kids simply get the curiosity and passion for learning stomped out of them at an early age.

There was one experiment on learning with chimps that I am really fond of.

One chimp was given a puzzle to work out and rewarded when the solution was discovered. The chimp spent very little time with the puzzle after that.

Another chimp was given the same puzzle but never rewarded when the solution was discovered. But the chimp kept playing with the puzzle and got faster and faster at the completion.

This was repeated with other chimps and other puzzles.

The chimps that were rewarded worked very hard to decode a new puzzle apparently for the reward as they lost interest after the reward.

The second chimps took a lot longer to decode or reach the solution but eventually got faster that the first group.

The suggestion is that the second group recieved their reward from the game or puzzle and continued learning how to do it faster or understand it better.

Don't remember exactly where this came from but probably from developmental psych or maybe an education class. Whichever, it was 50 years ago or better.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I've got so many questions, but no one with money seems interested in finding the answers. :evil:
> 
> "*A disease I've found no cure for.*" - @Hondo
> 
> I hope and pray you are never cured of it! Too many never catch it.


"Curiouser and curiouser" as Alice in Wonderland says. I guess some of us live in Wonderland all the time and just get curiouser and curiouser.

I should not have ridden last night. Couldn't stop myself.
Here's what I knew: Green. Thoroughbred. Not ridden in a week. 
Memorial Day weekend. Beach. 

There was no way I would try to go with a slow set like Cass and Brave, but reasoned that with Nala we could keep a pace and let the energy out and just avoid anything that looked scary.
Nala's rider agreed to go. Unfortunately for me, when I arrived at the barn she showed up with her BF and planned to take him on Penny. This was my chance to reconsider. 
Did I mention I hadn't ridden in a week?

Plus they stuck me in ER a couple days ago and I don't like doing babies (how can you be calm about a baby that could die?) and there was a scary baby that was having scary problems. That made me really need my horse therapy.

Hero came rushing eagerly to me when I arrived in the pasture. Nala came cantering up to her rider. Brave's rider might think Nala has emotional issues, but this was her third ride in three days and she was like a dog wanting to go for a walk again. "Take me, take me!" I suspect Hero didn't know we were going for a ride. :smile:

So. There was a backhoe parked in the neighborhood we walk through to get to the beach. There was a tractor parked on the dunes. There were kites visible above the dunes before we could even see the beach. The kind that zip around and make noises.

With all the time I spend on the beach, I usually see someone doing a cookie in their car three times in a year. Today we saw people doing it about six times. People revved their engines. They had tents and groups of people.

Despite all that, I thought we did pretty good for awhile. I tried to be nice to Penny's rider and keep the trotting to a minimum, but I wasn't going to kill myself either so if we were behind I trotted or cantered a little and tried to let some energy out as long as I could see it didn't ruffle Penny. We went down to the edge of the water and in the waves, which the horses did fine with.

Nala was unusually calm, which was critical. Yet at one point she needed to go up into deeper sand to work a little harder, but it was so deep and shifty today that Hero couldn't handle it mentally. He started plunging and bucking so I took him back to the hard sand. 

After that, I rode that horse in every direction possible (I believe) on a single ride. We turned around and I spotted a truck with two giant American flags flapping behind the bed, cruising down the beach toward us. The only place to go was back into the deep sand. Everything seemed fine, it passed us. But once it was a few hundred yards away, I heard Hero gulp in a big breath and hold it. Uh oh.

He started plunging, and I tried to keep it near the earth's surface but held him back too much. Penny and Nala were getting away. I released the reins. "Forward!" So we went backward a bunch of steps quickly. It was OK, I sat it. Then we spun right, then spun left. I was still sitting. Then we went back and sideways at once. He tried the other direction. Front end went up, back end went up. He stopped. I hollered to Nala's rider to see if she could come rescue me. "We're stuck!"

She came back and then I pointed Hero at Nala's hind end and willed him to become a part of Nala. He got unstuck and followed her, and then we went down next to the ocean and they walked and trotted side by side, with him sucking on his bit like a pacifier.

Penny was within the vicinity, and I'm sure trotted and cantered more than her rider wanted to, but there were no unplanned dismounts.
We thought we were actually doing all right.

When we got to the access off the dunes, there was a large party with a tent all spread out below our normal trail. Nala's rider thought we should use the access next to the one we usually go up. The other two horses started up in front of Hero, but he could not fathom going up this other way. He was bucking and leaping, but I finally got him settled down into a canterish sort of thing. Only problem was I couldn't for the life of me get him pointed up the dune. We weren't managing to go up it by cantering in place sideways. So I hopped off, and immediately he reared. 

Once Hero came down, I managed to direct the crazy motion up the hill. The sand was almost to my knees, and I couldn't lift my legs high enough and keep up with my horse so managed to fall down. Fortunately, I had reins in my hand and a horse that was lurching forward, so all that momentum pulled me back up and I just made churning motions with my legs and managed to stay upright to the top. Then it was all good.

When I got back on, I pulled hard on the saddle and didn't feel bad about it. Sheesh, you try mounting from sand when you're short and your horse is definitely 16 hands today. After your leg muscles are all wigging out from churning through sand. Hero took off as my leg left the ground, and I still sat down in that saddle so smoothly I wouldn't have wrinkled a piece of paper. More coincidence than skill, but I was certain that made up for any pulling I'd done getting on. :smile:

I really shouldn't ride tomorrow...why do I want to? Maybe just around the property...
I know the cure for all of this is more riding, more exposure to things, more experience! But we can't learn it all in one day, that's for sure.


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## bsms

OK. I'm pooped, and all I did was read your post!


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## Knave

Some of those rides feel like you just live through them right?  I know they do for me anyways. So, don’t forget to pat yourself on the back for living through it all, nothing too bad even happened because you did everything right, and now it’s over and the next one will be better. So, good job, and I’ll give you a pat on the back!


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## ChasingDreams

Woah, you are one brave lady! We definitely have days, but your days make my days sound like a cake walk  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phantomhorse13

Yikes. I hope if you rode today it was a lot more boring!!


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## knightrider

Wow, what a story. I was on the edge of my chair! Glad it worked out OK in the end.


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## Hondo

Edge of your chair???!!! I fell out three times!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Edge of your chair???!!! I fell out three times!


Hee hee, you have to ride it like a green Thoroughbred!

We rode in the outdoor arena last night and Hero was mellow as could be. At least some things are getting to be "old hat" for him.

Great news, there is a property just across the road from our pastures and it has been for sale for years. Someone built a polo facility, which is ridiculous because there is only one real polo facility in the state, so for people to come clear out to the coast to play seemed very far fetched. It was never used, the owner went under on the property which has been neglected, and part of the roof blew off in a big storm. 

Thankfully, someone has finally bought the place and turned the polo fields into pasture, put in new stalls, and there is a giant indoor arena. The new owner is good friends with my supervisor at work, who is a horse person I am friends with. What I am envisioning with the new boarding facility across the road is new people to ride with, and hopefully we can talk about being able to use the arena sometimes. I'd love to have somewhere to do some riding on very stormy or rainy days. To ride over would probably take ten minutes.

Quite possibly there might be clinics, shows or lesson possibilities with such a nice arena. I'm going over Thursday to look at a horse my supervisor is interested in (a free horse situation), and that way I can see the place and talk more with the owner.

Good thing I heard about this tonight because I was starting to turn a little green with envy hearing about @egrogan's new house in horse heaven!


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## egrogan

While I do hope to meet new people to ride with, indoors are pretty unlikely in my future so I understand your excitement @gottatrot! There are a few boarding barns and some fancy show barns around with indoors, but my town is mostly backyard setups with maybe a nice outdoor ring. Mostly people ride on the roads and trails. I have heard rumors of someone a few minutes away with a small private indoor that hosts winter lesson parties, but she is apparently “quite discerning” about who gets invited, and I’m guessing my riding skills are not going to land me on any exclusive lists any time soon :wink:


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## phantomhorse13

egrogan said:


> I have heard rumors of someone a few minutes away with a small private indoor that hosts winter lesson parties, but she is apparently “quite discerning” about who gets invited, and I’m guessing my riding skills are not going to land me on any exclusive lists any time soon


Hey, don't be so sure the 'discerning' is based solely upon riding skill. Could be the mystery person doesn't want human drama or ill-behaved horses disrupting the atmosphere. You can learn a lot watching people of all levels take part in a lesson!


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## bsms

With the right tack, you could always just crash the party! They won't even know who to blame...


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> Hey, don't be so sure the 'discerning' is based solely upon riding skill. Could be the mystery person doesn't want human drama or ill-behaved horses disrupting the atmosphere.


I agree. Could be they don't even want the "good" riders who think they're all that, but more casual people.

I'm feeling enlightened tonight. Nala's rider and I had a very good ride on the beach. But it has just been nagging at me...how much Hero bucks. I know horses don't like to buck. Horses love to get up from a roll and buck, or throw in a buck over a jump. But bucking is hard work, and they don't want to just buck and buck over and over, day after day. So I've known something must be wrong. I told Nala's rider that he'd either quit bucking or not, but it didn't matter that much, because here we were and it didn't affect our ride, honestly. But saying that made me think harder.

Hero's back has been looking stronger, and his hind end is muscling up well, and I've looked at his pelvis muscles which seem symmetrical, and he moves sound. ??????

So today, we bucked three times going down the dune, and then went for a distance in the deep, soft sand and bucked a few times, and then went on the hard sand and the bucking resolved. 

Twice I felt the hind leg slip out on one side while walking, and I was thinking I really need to find out what is going on. 

I've known it wasn't just a temperament issue. Hero is a sympathetic horse with a lot of try. He's very dramatic, but I've just known something isn't right about the bucking. The thing is, he bucks when he's a little excited, but he also does it when he feels very calm. He never seems to be trying to unseat me, and doesn't twist or do anything tricky. He just lowers his head a bit (and even keeps it up for me if I feel it coming), and then stiffens the front legs and throws the hinds up. Or just lifts the back and kicks one of the hinds out very hard to the side.

At home I searched _more_, and I think I've found the answer. I'm convinced he has locking stifles. Key characteristics he has are scrambling up and down hills, trouble with deep footing, a hind leg that seems to give out, and dragging hind toes. Except he's a very smart horse and has taught himself how to unlock his stifles. So when they lock up, he throws them out or up and unlocks them. Which is why telling a horse that really does want to please not to buck or kick hasn't worked, because he has to do it or his leg will be stuck in an extended position. 

But I haven't been able to catch it, because he fixes it and doesn't end up with a stuck, dragging leg. 

Now I think I can feel what is happening when his leg gives out. Amore would sometimes lose a hind leg in the last year I was riding her, from her back arthritis. But it felt like she would complete the step, put her weight down on the leg and then it would sort of give or wobble and she'd drop the hip, then shift her weight to correct herself. 

Hero feels like he brings it forward a little short, and then drops the hip and puts the weight on the other hind quickly. The next stride feels normal. Sometimes he stamps the hind down when it starts to come up short. So I am guessing the hoof can't go down flat because the leg is stuck extended, so he throws the weight to the other side and fixes it by flexing it back before the next stride, or he stamps it down and unlocks it. 

Feeling like I know what the problem is seems very empowering. It probably explains everything about why Hero hasn't been able to find a home where he does athletic things. Now I just hope I can help him enough. The first suggestion is strengthening, which I will try in case I've just not been working the correct muscles. We have some steep hills behind the pastures, so I can try taking him up those in progressive intervals. They say trotting poles is good too.

After that, I'm not sure, but potentially some kind of injection from the vet might help or even fix the issue. I've started a thread on here to see what other people have had success with. He's too old to grow out of it, unfortunately, and it is probably caused by his genetically straight hind limb conformation.


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## Hondo

I said it before, Hero needed you.


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## bsms

I didn't know what you were talking about - had to look it up:

https://ker.com/equinews/locking-stifles-horses/

https://horse-canada.com/magazine_articles/stuck-stifles-upward-fixation-of-the-patella/


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## Hondo

Back in the years of dirt biking I took glucosamine and condroitin on a regular basis for my knees as many did and still do.

For about the past month I've been losing quite a bit of sleep at night from knee pain. Don't know why it started acting up but I ordered a truckload of Joint Juice and began taking four per day for a while. The pain was reduced by about 90% in 2-3 days. I'm down to two per day and will soon drop to one per day.

I've known this stuff to work wonders on aging and arthritic dogs.

Don't know if it would help a locking knee on a horse but, maybe??


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Back in the years of dirt biking I took glucosamine and condroitin on a regular basis for my knees as many did and still do....


Hmm, that's a good idea to try. I have Amore on a Glucosamine/Chondroitin/HA supplement, and my dog also. 

Went on a ride today with my barn girl on Penny. We first went down to the beach, but it was windy and there were tons of kites out so I asked her if she'd rather go back and ride around the property. She was not wanting to face all of that today, so we went back and rode all around the big fields and rolling hills. She did a good job on Penny. I think if Nala's rider's BF didn't ride Penny, she'd do a lot better. Basically half the ride was spent letting Penny know she couldn't just start cantering off when she felt like it.

What was interesting was knowing about Hero's locking stifles. I am just positive that is what is going on. It's getting so I can predict exactly when they will lock/he will kick out based on the grade of the hill. I am thinking he is slowly getting better, because if I recall correctly he used to kick on the flat, but now it is exclusively on hills that are a certain steepness.

Hero walked beautifully and calmly everywhere on a loose rein, and when we came to a hill (up or down) I'd see how steep it was and call back, "Don't let Penny get excited because Hero is going to kick or buck now." Sure enough, a step or two down or up the hill and he'd very predictably do his routine. 

The most it took him was four attempts, and he seems to try a kick out first, then if that doesn't work he'll buck, and then try a kick again, then a buck. Rarely he will just start with a buck, and that is usually when we come right onto a steep downgrade and it could be that both legs are trying to get stuck at once. I am guessing it has to do with the angle his leg gets at on the hill.

The only thing I ever did when he bucked was try to stay quiet and let him work through it. Or say, "You're fine." Honestly, he seemed to appreciate it and was immediately very calm after, and stretching back out into a walk. It's much easier to ride a buck when you know exactly when it is coming. Also I noticed he does a little grunt just before, which might be his signal he feels his leg locking.

Something I am guessing is that once we get his problem fixed (being optimistic because I am willing to do the tendon splitting if all else fails, because he is young and I want him to not have to deal with this), he is going to be both a nice, consistent ride and also a lot more athletic than I've thought he could be. It might take a little time/money/work to get there, but I believe he's going to be a great horse for me rather than one I get by with.

******************************************
Went over to look at the polo barn/new boarding facility across the road. The indoor arena is huge and has great, washed sand footing. The owners seem very nice. They are trying to get my work friend to take a free horse from one of their boarders, a big, dun QH/draft cross. She wanted me to look him over to see if it was a good idea. 

He is somewhere around ten or twelve, and recently lost about 100 lbs. He has insulin resistance but still needs to lose about 80 lbs or so and after xrays and workup the vet says he does not have Cushing's and also has never foundered. Apparently he has always been sound. His hooves looked like tough mustang type hooves. At the facility he has a stall that connects to a big sand lot, so he can have hay instead of grass. He's also a nice, mellow ride with a smooth jog and gentle lope. He has a beautiful face with big eyes and a kind eye. He'll be very drafty even after losing weight with big bones and feet.

I told my friend it was a little risky taking on an IR horse, but since he has had no hoof issues yet, if she always manages him properly he could potentially not have any problems. With the weight loss, his IR could improve quite a bit too. She is meeting the owners of the horse to see if they think she will give him a good home. I've been trying to talk her into another horse since her old horse died about a year ago. She's in her 50s and can ride at an intermediate level. 

If she gets the horse, my friend will board at the polo barn. The owner is not sure yet if she'll allow outside riders in the arena. However, since she is so nice, I am going to ask about at least a release to ride around the property (lots of green fields) with my friend, and hopefully she can have a release to ride over at our barn too. That way at least we can meet up to go riding together. And possibly if I ride with the barn owner a bit too, she'll soon let me and hopefully Nala's rider go in the arena when we're riding with my work friend.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I'm very undecided about what kind of saddle pad to get for him. I don't like just my Thinline that is a dressage square. I'm debating about a Supracor half pad. But something needs to go over that under the rest of the saddle. Part of me thinks with his sensitive skin he might like one that has merino wool all around the edges. It seems like that would not rub anywhere.
> I had issue with the edges of the flaps rubbing sometimes on Halla.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then of course you can get pads that are completely wool on the underside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about the woolback or coolback pads from Toklat, but the saddle fits so well I don't want or need a super thick pad. Shock absorption is helpful but I prefer without too much thickness. Nala's rider just uses wool half pads and regular cotton pads underneath. But she's not super picky like me, and honestly I believe her saddle fit is a little narrow because Nala never develops the really strong, flat back muscles on top. It wouldn't surprise me if her back hurts a bit.



I know I'm waaaaaay behind here. Still, this reminded me that I once had a wonderful all-sheepskin saddle pad when I used my old, not-quite-right saddle on Sunsmart in his early training way back:











Unfortunately, this expensive item got stolen later. The reason I didn't replace it is because my horse had his own saddle by then, specifically adjusted to suit him, and there wouldn't have been room under it for this pad - it would have thrown the fit out, so he's just got an ordinary cotton pad now.



But I still think the sheepskin pad was wonderful when having to use a not-quite-right saddle - the horse was so comfortable when that was added.

Australia is the land of many sheep, and many people figuring out how to use sheep products in new ways. Here's the link to a sheepskin/wool specialising saddle pad manufacturer. They don't seem to make the one I had anymore, but it's interesting to see what they've come up with:

https://fleeceworks.com/

They're also making bamboo fibre products now. 

Speaking of bamboo, have you guys tried bamboo socks yet? Soooooo comfortable, especially in summer. No rubbing, and like clouds to walk on.










At home, Brett wears the brown and black ones, I get the purple, green and pink ones! ;-)


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## gottatrot

@SueC, interesting about the saddle pads. It seems odd that bamboo would be comfortable. That blue saddle pad I posted with the merino edging has bamboo fabric. I'd never heard of it before.

Hero seems to have no tender areas, so I think the soft panels on my new saddle are helping his back muscles. Probably I won't need a special pad, but I might get that blue one anyway just because I like the color. :smile:

Today I trimmed down the medial side of his hind hooves. It wasn't making sense to me at first why someone would want to trim down the inside of the hoof, but then I was thinking about how anatomically the tendon that catches with the stifle locking is on the inside of the knee. So making it tighter by lengthening the leg slightly on that side could keep it from catching. 

It seems wrong to make a hoof unlevel, but it really was only 1/8th of an inch and many horses wear their hooves a bit unevenly between trims without dire consequences. I reasoned that it might be harder on the joints to have the tendon locking all the time and Hero stomping and kicking. 

I put hoof boots on his hinds, thinking maybe having a level platform for the hoof could also keep the tendon more stable. Then I walked him up and down a fairly steep hill five or six times. His tendon didn't lock! This is making me very hopeful. If I can get that inside quad muscle very strong/short, along with lowering the hoof a tad, it could make the tendon short enough that it doesn't lock anymore. 
Doesn't hurt Amore to spend time walking up and down hills either.


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## SueC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bsms* View Post 
_I've got so many questions, but no one with money seems interested in finding the answers. :evil:

"*A disease I've found no cure for.*" - @*Hondo* 

I hope and pray you are never cured of it! Too many never catch it._



gottatrot said:


> "Curiouser and curiouser" as Alice in Wonderland says. I guess some of us live in Wonderland all the time and just get curiouser and curiouser.


Yes, hello! ;-)

Have any of you ever read Jostein Gaarder's _Sophie's World_? Love that book. Here's an except on this topic:

_*“The only thing we require to be good philosophers is the faculty of wonder.”*_

_To summarize briefly: A white rabbit is pulled out of a top hat. Because it is an extremely large rabbit, the trick takes many billions of years. All mortals are born at the very tip of the rabbit’s fine hairs, where they are in a position to wonder at the impossibility of the trick. But as they grow older they work themselves ever deeper into the fur. And there they stay. They become so comfortable they never risk crawling back up the fragile hairs again. Only philosophers embark on this perilous expedition to the outermost reaches of language and existence. Some of them fall off, but others cling on desperately and yell at the people nestling deep in the snug softness, stuffing themselves with delicious food and drink.

“Ladies and gentlemen,” they yell, “we are floating in space!” But none of the people down there care.

“What a bunch of troublemakers!” they say. And they keep on chatting: Would you pass the butter, please? How much have our stocks risen today? What is the price of tomatoes? Have you heard that Princess Di is expecting again?

_(from p16)


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## egrogan

SueC said:


> Have any of you ever read Jostein Gaarder's _Sophie's World_? Love that book. Here's an except on this topic:
> 
> _*“The only thing we require to be good philosophers is the faculty of wonder.”*_



Yes! Still one of the most memorable books I read in my last year of high school- which was now many moons ago. :wink: In fact, just considered re-reading it as I was packing and unpacking my bookshelf. Might have to move it up the list!


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## Hondo

I looked up the socks. They sound interesting. 3 for $26. I may order some. Bacteria does not live in bamboo. And they are supposed to keep the feet dry. I'll bet they wear well also. I had a shirt with fabric made from cactus many many years ago. Very soft and wore like iron. Loved that shirt.

It's an incurable disease I say! Pass the butter please

I've also wondered about a hoof being 1/8th off from level. Around here, almost every bit of ground they step on is already 1/8th out of level at least.

Wouldn't hurt me to spend a little more time walking up and down hills too.


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## SueC

:rofl: @*Hondo* !  Would you like your butter plain or in curls? ;-)

I bet that cactus shirt was good. We've got a few hemp shirts; lovely heavy fabric and super cool in summer. Wears better than linen. Bamboo is heavy and soft and shock-absorbing. The socks do eventually wear in the usual spot at the back of the heel, and they do take longer than other socks to dry, and you may get some fluff on your feet, but I've never had socks even a quarter as comfortable in my whole life. Especially in summer! In winter, I like a warmer sock, like thick wool, but if you wore lined boots then you could probably still wear them in winter.

I think @*gottatrot* is right to think long and hard about comfort for her horses, since they can't go shopping themselves. ;-)


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## weeedlady

Well shoot, now I'm gonna have to get me some new socks too.


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## phantomhorse13

How ironic that socks are on my shopping list.. gonna have to check bamboo out. I would never have thought that was a real thing, let alone comfortable!


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## SueC

You also don't have to wash them after a day's wear - unthinkable with other socks. I just peg mine on the outside line near our shoe bench overnight and wear them again in the morning. Airs and dries. You can do the smell test! ;-) I usually wear them around three days unless they get extra dirty. Cuts down on laundry and on socks wearing out with laundering.


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## gottatrot

Yesterday I made a mistake with Hero. Thinking we were doing well on smaller hills, I decided to lead him up a very steep one. At the bottom he was anxious but I encouraged him, and he walked up fine. 

But at the top when I turned him around he was very nervous and didn't want to even try going down. Once I got him moving he hopped and leaped and went sideways with a few kicks. After we got down I stopped to let him get sorted out and he was very upset. He stood and tucked his nose in, then began alternately lifting each front leg up higher than his nose very slowly- it looked like he was doing the spanish walk but standing still. He did this for about a minute while I was telling him I was sorry. 

When we started walking he curved toward me and began throwing his head and snapping his teeth. This is something he does when he is very nervous, and he looks like he's at the track being ponied. I whapped his nose with the end of the lead rope when his teeth got close, and after several minutes he settled down. 

I felt bad though because he had a scab on his nose from one of his play fights with Leo over the fence, and the rope hit it just right to knock it off so his nose was bleeding slightly. It looked like I'd been yanking on him. My DH was along, taking the dog for a walk with us, and I said, "See why they don't recommend Thoroughbreds for beginners?" He was unperturbed the antics, having been well acquainted with Halla and Amore. 

Today Hero and I went out for a ride with Nala and her rider. I decided to try putting Renegade boots on all four hooves to see if it helped Hero at all. He was surprised he could walk so easily over the rocks in the driveway and the wood chips along the way. 

We had a couple kicks going down the steep dune but then I took Hero right to the hard sand. We did about a mile of trotting and then about a half mile of fast cantering. Well, it felt fast for Hero but Nala was trotting and still going faster than were.

I wasn't sure how it would go - I've never used boots on the beach so I wasn't sure if the sand would shift them off. Also I've never used them on a horse that bucks and kicks out like Hero. They stayed on fine and Nala's rider thought he was picking his hind hooves up higher, so that might be helpful for strengthening. 

I understand now why he likes to keep his head down - he doesn't want to flex his legs forward as far, so if he canters with his head low he can let those hind legs trail out behind. I kept asking him to put his head up when he put it below his withers, and he complied most of the time. We had some nice cantering. He managed to go into it several times without an issue, and several times he did have difficulty and either bucked or went back down to a trot. He definitely prefers trotting, which I read can be a sign of locking stifles. Sometimes I feel how much he wants to canter when Nala breaks into it, but he still hesitates. 

Just before we got to the uphill dune to exit the beach, I felt Hero starting to get nervous. I kept him on the hard sand as long as possible, but then took him straight up the hill. He walked and pushed himself forward strongly, with no issues. The uphills are getting better at least. It's sad he is nervous about hills and deep footing. But on the smaller grassy hills on the way home I could tell he was having less difficulty too. Slow progress, I believe.


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## Hondo

Interesting that he can look ahead and know it's gonna hurt.


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## Hondo

....still thinking.....it's a curse....

Anyhow, I've noticed for some time now that horses will go out of their way to go down a gradual grade rather than a steep grade. This is particularly noticeable in wild horse areas. They'd rather go a mile gradual than 1/4 mile steep. Much more so than cattle or deer etc.

And I've read they developed mostly on the plains, or at least so I seem to remember.

So it got me to wondering (that word again!) if although they can traverse very steep terrain, maybe their physical structure is made in such a way as to cause a little more discomfort than on a more gentle grade.

Cattle will cut across and up really steep stuff but I've never seen horses do that by choice.

I'll take another nap now..............


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## Knave

@Hondo Although I agree that that is true 99% of the time, the horse I ride always tries the steepest spot. Lol. I don’t know if it’s because he likes to shortcut things or if he’s just overconfident and enjoys the struggle, but I am always having to redirect him. Sometimes I allow him to, because he thinks it’s fun, but if I think we’ll die, or I think the day will be super long, I don’t let him.


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## Hondo

@Knave ...still thinking...cogitating...can't stop...

For the most part I let Hondo choose how we get from A to B. And after reflecting, yes, he will also at times take the steeper route. And in my foggy recollection, this most often occurs when the less steep route is a fairly ungiving surface that would apply more pressure to one side of his hoof.

I'm thinking since his "ankle" only rotates one way as opposed to ours, walking on a rather firm contour might be more uncomfortable than the steepness. As I type, I'm wondering (that word) if the joint is a result of millions of years on the plain. Steep mountain animals seem to all have cloven hooves. Don't know about their "ankle" joints.

I have noticed that on a decent if he spies a shelf of sorts that is flatter he will head for that.

He really really does not like walking on the contour of solid rock.

Could be an explanation for your horse's behavior, or OTOH, he might just be checking to see if you're awake.

On a long smooth gentle down slope, Hondo will often drag one and sometimes both hinds. Not a lot, just a little. But enough I can hear it. So @gottatrot 's topic has me listening.


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## Knave

Lol. @Hondo I think Bones is just extremely playful along with pretty dang athletic, so like a kid he has to try everything. 

Now, thinking about your line of thought... there are a smaller amount of mustangs where we range our cattle. I am not talking about the areas where huge herds of horses have ran everything down and their numbers are insane so they are just looking to eat, but where we range and the horses are in small herds.

These horses stay high. I see them when I am working, but they are usually higher than I am. Then they of course sidehill, but it is steep and they have their trails cut in. It would be dangerous for them to travel in a different way. They would scramble to keep their footing if not on the cattrails. I haven’t seen them low though when they have their choices.


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## gottatrot

Maybe it depends also on individual anatomy. Amore is a great downhill horse and can go very fast. She has a lot of mobility in her hind legs and also is slightly cowhocked. 

I know human runners can be better at hills or not based on anatomy. My sister and I are both good downhill runners, and I'm a little better at it than she is. For a lot of people the knees or quads are a weak point going down hills. There is a 10K run around here with a very long, steep hill, and some people seem to cruise up the hill and others like us are speedy going down. Very few people seem to be good at both.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Anyhow, I've noticed for some time now that horses will go out of their way to go down a gradual grade rather than a steep grade. This is particularly noticeable in wild horse areas. They'd rather go a mile gradual than 1/4 mile steep. Much more so than cattle or deer etc.


I'll give you more evidence for this: We have a steep bank near our soak. Cattle and donkeys delight in climbing it and standing on top. They love going up the steepest bits, and will run back down kicking up their heels and come back up the steepest bit again, like kids playing on slides going back over and over.

But the horses never do this!


Don Quixote On High – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr


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## SueC

Love your signature quote, @Knave!


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## bsms

Don't know if it is relevant, but Bandit has no problem being asked to go UP a steep spot. He'll look, say OK, then power up. I worry because some of the banks along a wash have soil that will give way under pressure. I'm talking about steep climbs that are only 6-8 feet high. But if it gives way at the wrong time, we could go **** over tincups onto the rocks that line the washes.

But going up? He'll do it with very little hesitation. Trooper has no hesitation at all.

Going DOWN is a different matter. Bandit & Trooper both prefer to take baby steps, testing the ground before trusting their weight to it. The cavalry used to teach horses to do "slides" as a test of their obedience and of the rider's courage. I don't think Bandit is that obedient and I'm not that courageous. When I was in the military, we used "practice bleeding" to describe things like these.








​ 







​
That's because if you do it often enough, it will sometimes look like this:


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## Knave

Thank you @SueC! Sometimes I have to remind myself of it. As for your donkeys, adorable by the way and I want one, I thought the same type of thing until Bones came along. He will climb the pile we have to the top for fun. When Zeus came along he did the same thing but to a new extreme! He runs up the pile and gets to the top and rears up like Trigger. Lol. He is as funny as Bones is.


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## Knave

Oh, I just realized it may be important to explain that I think some horses like taking shortcuts, but they are rare enough. In no way am I trying to say a horse can go up the types of things a cloven hoove animal can, except a cow, I think a horse can go anywhere a cow can go.


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## Hondo

Couple comments. First, after sending a video to my teacher/tormentor of a Moab Outlaw Ride where the group went sliding down a bank, one day said teacher/tormentor was mumbling "i think it's right along here" as we rode along a road above the river. Then we turned directly to the river and said tormentor absolutely disappeared through the brush and down the bank.

When I approached the bank my eyes got wide and my stomach knotted up a bit, but I had developed confidence that my tormentor would not lead me through anything that either I nor Hondo could handle. And my tormentor had ridden Hondo for two years and knew what he could do.

As I nudged Hondo over the edge of the precipice that I could not see the bottom of, I fully expected to go over his head at the bottom and land in the dirt.

I don't know how many steps Hondo took if any. His legs seemed mostly stiff and just maneuvering around. When we reached the bottom I felt absolutely no forward thrust at all. He just rolled right on through.

When I mentioned the video and what we had just came down my tormentor said "Huh?, I thought I saw a cow down here". Ha! Yeah right!

This same tormentor (whom I owe most of my riding skills to) once told me we go every where the cows go. One day when bringing back a small group from the far corner of the roughest part of this 28,000 acre ranch I wound up an the side of NOTHING when one of Hondo's boots rolled off. Another rider behind saw it happen. When my tormentor turned around and saw me I was asked, "what are you doing up there?" Me, "i was following the cows, you said we go everywhere the cows go". Reply, "well, maybe not EVERYWHERE".

I dismounted on the high side and led Hondo straight up and back around to the trail.

I am so lucky to have wound up with a horse with Hondo's feet.

He will go anywhere I ask him but will express an opinion if he has his doubts. Now a days it's more often me that says, "naw, we don't need to do that". 

I'm getting to be more all about just spending QT with my horse and he with me. Riding, walking, or just hanging out.

Four years with him as just flown by.


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## tinyliny

you ARE lucky!


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## Hondo

Yes, I am soooooo lucky. And BTW. the horse that Hondo followed down the slide was Rimmey. They have, in my estimation, the best feet on the ranch. That's why I'm hoping to hang on to Rimmey. He packs great and can go anywhere Hondo can go. He just gets a little testy when hauled around too aggressively while being ridden. Good for him. Good for me.

And they share hay, pellets, and water out of the same container. And take turns deciding, "I wanna go graze over there somewhere, you coming?"


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## tinyliny

@Hondo I really admire how brave you are, and not being young, and all that you DO, and how you let your mind range.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> Thank you @*SueC* ! Sometimes I have to remind myself of it. As for your donkeys, adorable by the way and I want one, I thought the same type of thing until Bones came along. He will climb the pile we have to the top for fun. When Zeus came along he did the same thing but to a new extreme! He runs up the pile and gets to the top and rears up like Trigger. Lol. He is as funny as Bones is.



You appear to have particularly fun horses, @Knave!  If they could be humans for a day, what sports do you think they would take up? Skydiving? Skateboarding? Ski jumping?


Are they young and full of beans, or older and full of beans?


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## gottatrot

My friends' geldings used to play "king of the manure heap," and play fight for the privilege of standing on top.

I'll never forget the day I tried to take Halla down a steep, muddy hill that was too slippery and she sat down and slid, using her front legs for propulsion. And I don't mean she flexed her hocks, she sat her butt on the ground. That was a very strange feeling, and one of those adrenaline moments where I was trying to figure out, is this OK? Are we going to make it? Without her quick thinking we would not have made it.
What a horse. A special horse like Hondo.

On another horse I've skied down a steep hill, similar to a reining slide. Some horses find very creative ways of going down hills that are too steep, including a collected canter, which is not fun downhill.

Maybe Amore would have been good at roller derby. No, I think she is too passive. Probably competitive eating.

My sister visited the barn tonight while I was at work, and took pictures of her friend with Hero and Satin, who she thought was Amore. An easy mistake. 









Stuck at work, I've been reading a lot about stifles, and came upon some good information. I found a site with a physical therapy approach to treatment, and started doing some stretches last night with Hero.

They said most instructions are quite vague, "Work them on hills," and "Straight lines," said most people can benefit from more detailed instruction. I know for myself, I could do a dozen different stretches but until I learned the ones that targeted the Piriformis or IT band (areas I've had issues with), they didn't help. The site also said taking a horse right out and working on big hills would lead to more pain and resistance, which is counterproductive (I think I figured that one out myself - or at least Hero told me).

Stretches (they gave rationale for each, which sounded pretty logical to me):

High flexion: Bring the limb up passively into a fully flexed hip and stifle position and hold for 10-30 seconds.
Protraction: Bring the limb forward under the horse’s belly.
Retraction: Stretch the limb backward past the tail.
Adduction: Stretch the hind limb toward the midline under the horse’s belly.
Lateral tail pull: Stand to the side of the horse, grasp the tail at mid-length, and gently pull the horse’s pelvis over the involved hind limb. The horse does not need to be standing square.
Single leg standing: Pick up the opposite hind limb as if to pick out the hoof. Don’t let the horse rest his weight on you; make him stand on his involved limb for 10-30 seconds or more.

When I brought Hero's legs up in high flexion, I could hear clicking that was definitely from the stifle area, which is a positive sign that this is his problem. The most difficult for him seemed to be retraction - he can't seem to stretch his leg back fully like Amore can. 
Lots to work on!

I also ordered some joint supplements with MSM for inflammation, HA which I read anecdotally some on forums thought helped their stifle issues, and Glucosamine/Chondroitin. Certainly cannot hurt.


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## SueC

SueC said:


> I'll give you more evidence for this: We have a steep bank near our soak. Cattle and donkeys delight in climbing it and standing on top. They love going up the steepest bits, and will run back down kicking up their heels and come back up the steepest bit again, like kids playing on slides going back over and over.
> 
> But the horses never do this!


I just wanted to add to this, thinking about it. I've had horses here who grew up on large pastured paddocks running with mares and other foals in herds, with access to dams and/or natural water bodies to drink from - my late Arabian mare, and an elderly Standardbred who is now nearly 34. All the others came from a place where mares and foals were isolated from other paddock mates after foaling, and run separately, and mostly in smallish sand yards, where hand fed, so next to no natural browsing and exploratory behaviour.

I've long observed, with these and many other horses, that such a cloistered and unnatural existence produces on average horses who have less social skills and are more afraid of all sorts of things than horses who have spent at least their first year running in a herd with their mothers, on large foraging paddocks (which is standard for most horses produced commercially for yearling sales here). It's unsurprising and logical when you think about it.

Both Romeo (old boy) and my late mare had a greater tendency to explore than the other horses, and were rarely afraid of anything. The others tended to be more spooky and suspicious - although once I brought them here to our farm, where we free-range them on 12.5ha pasture + bush tracks in our 50ha reserve, they all became much more "normal" within 6 months or so, and continued to improve. (Julian, the last introduction, is an especially clever and lively horse who was getting very depressed with his socially and experientially deprived life before we adopted him, and while he was a little spooky at first, he was exploring far and wide from day one - our most confident outlier from that group.)

In part I know it helped the artificially raised horses to have more naturally raised horses around. The Arab mare was lead mare while she was around, and she showed the ropes to the horses to whom a pasture and group situation was new. Her unfazed behaviour around wildlife really calmed the inexperienced members of the group.

In many ways, before she died, she (together with Romeo) educated the others and set up a sort of horse culture at our place, similar to what happens when you bring in a group of weanling calves you've bought with your older cattle, who then show them all around - which settles the young animals very quickly compared to when a young group arrives solo, with no "nannies".

When I thought about it, Romeo used to climb the dam wall regularly when he first arrived here more than seven years ago (he's slowed down a bit the last few years). He didn't race up it for fun, but he liked to walk all the way up and along to reach the grass up there, and was comfortable in that spot. He'd do just what the donkeys were doing here, just not in this particular photo from six years ago:



He also drinks water from the dam, just like my mare used to - the other horses, who grew up with tiny automatic stable troughs (just over the size of a horse's mouth) both indoors and out, have adapted to drinking from bathtubs and large watering troughs, but would probably have to have no other options before they would venture to the edge of the dam to drink at ground level.

In an odd way, the horses brought up in in these artificial environments are like special needs students who need additional coaching and time to adjust to normal things. The kids from the Romanian orphanages were like that too - indeed, some of them socially and intellectually stunted for life for lack of early consistent interaction with other humans, because they didn't even have one adult around to bond with and spend adequate time with.

@*Knave* , how did your adventurous horses spend the first year or so of their lives?


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## Knave

@SueC I love your pictures! I don’t know how Bones spent up until he was purchased for a futurity horse and then quickly culled. So he came to me as a two. Living in the environment prior he was separated from all as both a stud and futurity prospect. I did see a video of him on Facebook prior to being purchased and he was all alone playing with a ball.

You can see he’s always been very playful. He is now a five-year-old and still a total goodball about everything. He tries all sorts of trouble making skills and never met an object he didn’t try and play with.

Zeus was raised in an environment with several fjords and good socialization. He is my first experience with a fjord so I do not know if the mentality he has is just fairly standard. He is just a wild little baby in the pen.






@gottatrot It sounds like you are learning a lot! I so hope he continues to improve.


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> intellectually stunted for life for lack of early consistent interaction with other humans, because they didn't even have one adult around to bond with and spend adequate time with.


I tend to think that this is a current deep, problematic, and societal transformational problem going on around us this very moment.

Bruno Bettelheim, a child psychologist that spent time in the concentration camps, wrote at length about the differences in child development that he observed in the children raised in more or less day care centers when all available adults were needed for the work going on in the newly established Jewish settlements after the war.


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## Knave

That’s sad @Hondo. It makes me glad I live in a culture that kids are a part of the whole picture. Hmm... I guess that doesn’t make a lot of sense. I mean our kids work with us and we depend on them. My littlest girl helps run the household during summer because her asthma gets in the way of her farming, which is a huge help. My big girl works along with everyone else, and when it is time to work on the ranch side of things everyone is included and has a place that is important for the whole. 

I can see a difference in them during school times. They get more emotional and edgy. I cannot imagine that being the only thing they had.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> @Hondo I really admire how brave you are, and not being young, and all that you DO, and how you let your mind range.


I've heard it said many times, "No Fool Like An Old Fool". :smile::smile::smile:


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Maybe Amore would have been good at roller derby. No, I think she is too passive. Probably competitive eating.


The oldest three of our horses all have PhDs in perambulation and mastication. Julian has only been at our place for half a year - his first time ever living on pasture. He's got another two and a half years of this work to do before he attains that level of qualification. He does, however, have prior degrees in stagnation and ennui.

Interested in what everyone else's horses are majoring in! (Amore, we've got!)


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## gottatrot

With all those inquiring minds out there, I know someone is wondering how long it takes to fall off a 16 hand horse. I've done the calculations for you, and it takes exactly one second.

This study was conducted using two test horses, two riders and one deer which was released to bolt across the path of the test horses. Subject one achieved position zero but did not manage to fall off her horse (Nala), which gave the test only a 50% success rate.









Subject two successfully accomplished the experiment and went from sitting on the horse at 0:11 to full ground contact at 0:12. Variables included in the study were that it was done in an english saddle. Faster speeds could potentially be reached if the subject were bareback, and theoretically the descent might be slower if the subject were in a western saddle.


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## SueC

:rofl: Excellent choice of soundtrack! That's the spirit!

The collective research team surely appreciates your diligent efforts to further our understanding of this subject. Whose turn is it next? :falloff:

Will you be publishing this study in the academic journal _Falling Off, For Nerds_? ;-)

If so, I might be motivated to pull out an archived study for comparison.


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## Hondo

Those stumps I think I saw would NOT be fun. Ouch.

Was the still shot of Nala and her rider?


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## newtrailriders

Awesome experiment! Were you injured?


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## egrogan

Coming from the position of an "expert" quantitative researcher who often gets recruited to conduct peer reviews of studies such as this one- prior to publication, I'd tell my editor that we couldn't accept these results without additional replication. I'd like to see the n increased to at least 30 falls per rider to accept the results as statistically significant! :rofl:


Those deer though...this time of year, here at least, they are hiding their babies all over and that makes for unpleasant last minute surprises! Sunday we also had to contend with a mama turkey herding all her little chirping, peeping poults through the tall grass. The horses were very wide-eyed at the grass that was randomly waving _and _talking!!


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## gottatrot

Beware that wildlife, @egrogan or you may soon join our research study.



Hondo said:


> Those stumps I think I saw would NOT be fun. Ouch.
> Was the still shot of Nala and her rider?


We call those stumps "mounting blocks." Yes, as you can see, anyone who has a rank horse should bring him to Nala's rider for some sessions. Although they seem to have traveled all the way over to the trees in about three seconds, Nala's rider was sitting calmly aboard by the time I got up. 

No injuries, thankfully I landed on my knee before my face hit the ground, because otherwise I might have knocked some teeth out. It did touch down long enough for me to get sand and grass in my mouth. 

I've had people tell me about how they don't hit their head when falling off horses because they can guide it during the landing. I believe they haven't fallen off enough times yet if they think they can always help themselves fall right. I didn't even know what happened until after I was on the ground, and that was when I realized my face had almost hit first. I think my horse did exactly what Nala did, but I did not follow.

I thought there was a good lesson in collection in the picture of Nala. Notice her coiled under hindquarters and elevated forehand, all done on an extremely loose rein, and obviously accomplished with help from the assistive driving leg and balanced seat of her rider (sarcasm intended). 

We did have a nice ride, although I felt Hero had a little extra difficulty picking up the canter. It could be he was sore from doing stretches the day before, so I should keep that in mind.


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## knightrider

I agree with you, @gottatrot, when the horse does a spook like that, you don't even know you are coming off. You are just suddenly on the ground. My problem is that I instinctively don't let go of the reins as I am coming off, which results in broken fingers, and one time 4 broken ribs. Because I rode for years for hours by myself as a kid, and came off regularly, and didn't want my parents to know about it, I hold on to the reins as I'm coming off. I'm trying to teach myself to let go of those reins, but it is a hard habit to break.


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## bsms

OK, it was too fast for me to see. And if you have ANY objections, gottatrot, holler and I'll delete the video below. In the interest of science, though, it is slowed down 8-fold, allowing me to estimate total time was closer to 1.25 seconds:






To be honest, in my fall, I was trying to dismount, and then I was on my back, on the ground, wondering what hit me. Total time in MY estimation was about 0.001 seconds. I'm still wondering about people who think about holding reins or not, or trying to roll, etc. How does ANYONE do that in 0.001 seconds?


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, that's interesting, I have a friend who also has that problem and she's broken fingers too. 
@bsms, ha ha, it's like football, when is the rider "down?" My knee was down before the rest of me. What I think is crazy is seeing how fast Nala disappears in real time. 

As far as transitioning a horse to a curb goes - I put my Myler curb that Halla used to like on Hero yesterday. The transition time was zero. I guess technically since he'd been in a Kimberwick he'd been in a curb, but the transition to that from a snaffle was also zero. He went in it just fine. The shanks swivel a lot and I just ride in it two handed. The mouthpiece seems comfortable for him. 

The cheek pieces seem to become an extension of the reins. There's a lot of play, which I'd rather have. When we go faster, I can ride with contact with the bit shanks, without rotating them back so the chain engages because I keep it loose. So I have a feel for where the horse's head is in case of a fast move, but I don't have to actually engage any significant pressure. With the Kimberwick there is not that much room for play, so it is easier to accidentally put pressure on the chain as the horse is moving. 

This is the one:


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## Fimargue

Gotta love those athletic horses, eh? I have usually managed to fall on my back, or bottom, but once I hit my head. For sure in this kind of spook, one's chances to stay on are very limited.
@knightrider, must be a very irritating habit! I usually just let go like a rag doll.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ....What I think is crazy is seeing how fast Nala disappears in real time....


She disappears pretty darn fast in 1/8th time, too!

No cruelty meant, but I loved the video. What Nala did is what I lived with for 7 years. Maybe twice a week initially. By the end, maybe once a month. And after Mia learned to hold her ground in a curb, she never ran off again. But she could SPIN! 135 degrees, 180 degrees, a full 360, sometimes more - my saddle slip episode was a 540 degree spin (1.5 circles).

Tomorrow I may post something on my journal about what watching the video is making me think. Bandit did some spins like that when I got him. He does shifts now. A spin goes past 90 degrees. Anything less is just a shift in direction. And a 45 degree SHIFT is vastly easier to ride out than a 135+ degree spin!

I used what Larry Trocha teaches today in the desert for the first time. Bandit got tense a few times but never put a foot wrong, so not much of a test. Gotta think it over some more, but the video reminded me SO much of riding Mia and how many of my "bad habits" are rooted in what are "good habits" for riding out something like that.








​ 
There was a large moving van ahead of us that day, shifting things around inside the van. In fairness to Mia, she made it past the van that day, on slightly loose reins. I don't know if Bandit would make it past the same threat tomorrow. Mia could MOVE, but she had a huge amount of TRY in her! More TRY than Bandit, but less SENSE. Life is full of trade-offs!

For now, I'll thank God for Australian saddles! I'm convinced the one in the picture above saved my life a number of times! If I had a little warning and the girth held, only hunger would get me out of that saddle! And yes, that one has a very American horn on it - unlike any true Australian saddle. I find they have a useful function too. There is a reason why, when I got Bandit, his first few rides used that saddle.​


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## Hondo

Thank you @bsms . I was planning to do that but procrastinated. Too bad gottatrot didn't make it a little longer.....I'd have liked to have seen the save by Nala's rider.

Looked like to me she maybe went forward to get her feet clear of the stirrups? Or being English I guess the leathers would have slipped off if her foot was hung up? I saw to it that it is impossible for my foot to get hung up.

I've been on the ground 3 times. And each time I have had no remembrance of the time between being securely seated and prone on the ground wondering if everything was going to still work.


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## tinyliny

I hate those kind of spins! my old lease horse, Mac, could get me off that way, easy peasy. I never had time to plan my descent, and in fact, could rarely remember exactly how I fell. I usually had time to roll over so that I landed on my back. I think I was falling much slower than @gottatrot was. It's a bit like a cat falling; given enough time, it can bring it's feet back under itself. I had enough time to bring my back around instead of face planting.


But that's jsut becasue I'm heavier, floppier and probably rolled more or less over onto my back while still on the horse's neck.


I have had a couple of such spooks where I did a "Nala's rider" and was WAY forward, WAY off to one side and still managed to regain my seat. How? bald luck!


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## bsms

The video got me thinking. Mia really did do those movements regularly. The Aussie saddle, and the saddle alone, saved me for some time. The thigh blocks, up high on the thigh and no more than an inch in front of the thigh, are very helpful in those situations. Your hips just CAN'T go forward far, and the poleys WILL slam your hips around to stay aligned with the horse. 

The first experience I had of it was just a few weeks after I was hurt in my fall, when just crawling on a horse was painful. Lilly spooked, did 2 turns of 180 degrees fast as could be, with a leap forward in between - and I was still on her.

NOTHING I did. The saddle saved me. Totally.

I think the uncommonly far forward foot position, often braced even, was an adaptation to those spins. The forward, outside foot braced my body so that I wouldn't be slapped forward - or more precisely, so momentum wouldn't LEAVE me forward while my horse disappeared BEHIND!

This sequence is similar to Nalla, only the horse doesn't have Nala's (or Mia's) mind-boggling speed of twist:








​ 
Larry Trocha would have approved of the person's position, but the horse just starts to squirt out from underneath. Position-wise, other than using an Australian saddle, I can't think of ANYTHING one could do except get your feet far enough forward preemptively.

But that far forward foot position comes at a price, like everything seems to in riding. It might help in those twisting reactions. I thought it did with Mia, but I cannot prove it. But that position makes your horse less free to move athletically. If I do gain a little security, it comes at a cost.

As I've practiced in my little arena on Bandit, trying what Larry Trocha suggested, I'm conflicted. I'm not sure Bandit has EVER twisted like Nala does in the video. He hasn't spun past the 3-9 line, that I remember, for 2 years plus. None of his spins have had the violence of Mia's. And realistically, Bandit may be the last horse I'll ever ride intensively.

I was comparing today how I interpret Larry Trocha's comments and how I interpret Harry Chamberlin's teachings. Lets face it, I've never met either man. I'd love to take some lessons from Larry Trocha, but probably never will. Chamberlin died during WW2. So all I have are my best guesses at what they meant, and my guesses might be slandering both of them!

Both in the desert the other day, and in the arena today, I wasn't happy about sitting heavy on my horse's back. I've never done that before and I don't like it. I don't think Bandit is impressed, either. I wonder if I accept riders riding smaller horses at heavier weights because all of my "instruction" has been to get OFF the back as much as possible, to use my legs to protect my horse's back so my horse doesn't have to do it!

If getting on my pockets and slouching helps me stay on, but at the cost of being heavy on Bandit's back, it isn't worth it. There is a spot we often ride, where I take Bandit just off the trail while we drop into the biggest wash we have. I slouched the other day...and Bandit struggled. At a walk. The rest of the ride I did what I've always done - put pressure on my stirrups, got a little out of the saddle, used a forward balance, and freed Bandit to move without Sack of Potatoes Bob slouched on his back. Bandit told me that was better.

What works for a few minutes of cutting action in the arena may not be fair to my horse. It is part of what I believe is one of the two fundamental principles of Forward Riding - *the rider will work harder so the horse can work less*.

The other, BTW, is: *Instead of teaching my horse to shift his balance back under me, I'll move forward to put my balance above his*.

Assuming Bandit will NEVER move in the way Nala moves, what Littauer and Chamberlin taught may be safe enough. Particularly with my narrow but grippy Abetta saddle, with 4" cantle behind and a horn in front.

There is a thread I'm not going to return to. I lost my temper on it this morning. As many who read gottatrot's journal know, I'm a jerk when I lose my temper. But these conversations on the journals are a big part of my "riding instruction". I get to hear how diverse riders, from @Hondo to gottatrot to @tinyliny to @phantomhorse13 to @egrogan and many others try to solve the riding puzzle. Then I can take the idea to Bandit and ask, "_How does it feel when I do X1? How about X2? X3? X3 is pretty good in this spot, but causes a problem over here? What if I swap between X1 & X3, since you thought X2 sucked?_"

Then someone will mention X4, and I'll be like a hobbit saying, "_They sell PINTS?_" 

I would love to be able to jump in a time machine and take lessons from Littauer, or Tom Roberts, or get a graduate of Samur to teach me some lessons. But I can't. And no one I know personally would even understand why I ask these questions...


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## Hondo

I often return to the author of Inner Skiing's comment that it was fortunate children learned to walk before they learned to talk else they may never have been able to learn to walk.

A little tongue in cheek perhaps as the author was a skiing instructor himself, but he firmly believed that the kids learned best by just watching, or gawking as he put it, with eyes wide and jaw dropped.

Of course he supported chalk board stuff at a later point.

I often wonder about how this relates to horseback riding.

For the one sport I am fairly knowledgeable about, almost every single top national rider in every form of the sport of motorcycles from off road to paved track breaks some holy grail rule. And beat the guys that don't.

All that said, I shall continue pursuing the finer points of perambulation.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I often return to the author of Inner Skiing's comment that it was fortunate children learned to walk before they learned to talk else they may never have been able to learn to walk.


Excellent quote!  And thanks for bringing that to my attention; excellent metaphor for all sorts of other things too!


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## tinyliny

I just rode out in a new saddle. X's owner has been trying to get a better fitting saddle. I don't know if it's that she wishes to please me, as I've mentioned a few times how X's saddle kind of grind into my coxxyx. She bought a fancy one, and SHE didn't like, so it went back for sale, then has a new one in the tack locker.


Well, it's a lot cushier under my tush , and the twist is much wider. But, it is a dressage saddle with fixed thigh blocks! and a very straight down leg. you have no freedom to position your leg as you like. Fine if all you do is prance around doing dressage (I love dressage!), but going downhill? it kills my hips, since it forces them open wider than is comfortable for this older body. 



And, it puts my knee really vertically under me.. Ok, in theory this is ok, but I feel like I have a wall in front of my thigh, making me push into that wall. THAT makes me feel that if the horse were to stop quickly, I have created a pivot point around which my upper body feels like it will fall forward if the momentum is there to make me go forwad (if horse stops). 



the wider twist makes my knees point outward, and thus my toes point more outward, so I end up kind of feeling like I'm gripping with the back of my calves.


I think I want to just look for a nice western saddle! afterall, all I'm doing is trail riding.


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## SueC

I really can't remember now if it was this journal or another we all cross over to, where encouraging hindquarter engagement in young riding horses was being discussed.

Funny thing: All the harness-started Standardbred and /or Trotter breed horses (or crosses of these) I've personally ridden have never been lacking in that department. If they don't engage their hindquarters, they can't do what they do in harness. I've often thought that it's an advantage for them to have had so much athletic work before ever being asked to carry anything on their backs. They're already strong, fit and know how to move, before being asked to bear weight.

Being ridden does of course require additional muscle development for the horse, but I've always felt the foundation was excellent, and perhaps lacking in many riding-only horses. I used to drive my Arabian mare around a sand jogging track in harness as complementary exercise to riding when she was younger. It was great for her hindquarters, shoulders, back muscles and general fitness. And for years _before_ she was old enough to be ridden, she had a great deal of work on the lunge, again in soft footing, from the time she was 18 months old. She also never lacked hindquarter engagement when ridden; it wasn't something I had to teach to her. Or Chip, or his sister Ladychip, or Sunsmart, or his mother, or Romeo, or Dame du Buisson at the start of it all, or any ex harness horse I've personally ridden and/or saddle educated.

Cross training for horses? ;-)

And for riders? I'm a far better rider if I do my Pilates, and ride my bicycle, and go on long trail hikes on foot, and perhaps do a bit of uphill/downhill rollerblading. ;-)


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## gottatrot

@SueC, good point. I've only ground driven Hero once, but I think I should do it more as part of his physical therapy. I noticed tonight he is able to stretch a little farther than before.



Hondo said:


> A little tongue in cheek perhaps as the author was a skiing instructor himself, but he firmly believed that the kids learned best by just watching, or gawking as he put it, with eyes wide and jaw dropped.


About learning, I know I've described before my frustrations with learning a secure seat. There were many lessons, western, english and dressage. I also read many books. As @bsms has also noted, most books I found on riding theory were about dressage. 

Meanwhile, I despaired of ever being able to stay on Amore well. There are people on the forum who have horses that spook a lot. I've mentioned that Amore had multiple varieties of spooks, was tiny and lightning fast. I bet she spooks at 1.5x the speed of Nala. Nala is fast and can travel huge distances in a flash. She spooks every two or three rides, and 99% of her spooks are a spin to the side. Amore spooked five or six times every ride, and always a different kind.

The thing is, the people who were teaching me about riding couldn't have stayed on Amore when she spooked either. How could they teach me? 

It was my friends down the coast who saved me. When I boarded Amore with them, I learned how to ride by watching them. I guess I'm like those kids who learn by gawking. The thing is, we were critical of each others' riding. We weren't taking lessons, we were picking each other apart. I wanted to know why they had their stirrups that length and were they trying to keep their heels down or were they just ending up that way? We noted which parts of each other seemed stiff, and we tested our flexibility against each other on the ground (my one friend can keep her heels on the ground and touch her bottom down when squatting - I am nowhere near that flexible). 

If someone was sitting off center in the saddle, or one stirrup was not even, we said so. If people were turning by dropping their shoulder, or tipping forward, we told them. We critiqued each others' hand position and contact. Everyone was allowed to say what we thought the others were doing wrong. Sometimes they could justify it very well, and then we'd all try it.

Then we swapped horses constantly, and let the horses teach us too. We told each other that with Bibi you had to lean back because her motion came up from closer to her hindquarters. We knew you had to shorten your stirrups on Booker or he'd rattle your brains loose at the trot. 

I wanted to know how they landed from jumping over big logs without losing stirrups, and how to go around a corner at speed without unbalancing the horse. Then we practiced our theories and gave feedback on what worked.

I discovered that if you can run a horse up a winding, narrow trail and anticipate the flying changes by leaning with your body, and if you can get your balance point right and get off the horse's back in a full gallop, those are the muscle memories you need to have a secure seat and ride spooky little Arabs without falling off (except in extreme circumstances). 

Something I still appreciate very much when riding with these friends is that they can tell me in a short paragraph exactly how to ride an energetic horse I've never been on before. They really know their horses. They'll say that this one will need to turn at a slight angle because he likes to eyeball the hill, but then make sure you don't have the left rein too loose or he won't make the turn, and at the walk he wants his reins hanging in loops. 

I'm sure having the right saddle helps a lot. I believe when I am older and have a steady horse I'll be happy to ride western. I think I'd get too bruised up right now with Hero hopping and bucking me against the fork.


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## tinyliny

well, watching you ride makes me say that you aren't legit in any thread about having trouble balancing. 



you are as natural born as they come. 



no complaining.!!! try coming at this from the 'average' level. you'd be in for a shock!


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> no complaining.!!! try coming at this from the 'average' level. you'd be in for a shock!


Hmm, I thought we'd already established you have cat-like reflexes? Doesn't sound very average to me. :rofl:



tinyliny said:


> ...I never had time to plan my descent, and in fact, could rarely remember exactly how I fell. I usually had time to roll over so that I landed on my back....It's a bit like a cat falling; given enough time, it can bring it's feet back under itself. I had enough time to bring my back around instead of face planting....


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## egrogan

tinyliny said:


> no complaining.!!! try coming at this from the 'average' level. you'd be in for a shock!


Amen to that @*tinyliny* ! 



gottatrot said:


> @*SueC* , good point. I've only ground driven Hero once, but I think I should do it more as part of his physical therapy.


I am really looking forward to adding ground driving in to Izzy's routine once they get home. Her back is so undermuscled I'm a bit hesitant to get on her any time soon. We have nothing but hills and dirt roads around here, so this is my plan for her. She was trained to drive as a youngster and I played around with long lining in the arena years ago when we were bored over the winter. She really likes "going places" and enjoys our walks in hand, but I think having her bitted up and asking her to work a little more may help her get more out of it and help her back. We'll see what she thinks about that!


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## SueC

Just to clarify: I was only ground driving to train my mare to cart. From then on, I was actually driving her in a cart - jogging, fast trotting and cantering on a sand track for endurance and general fitness training, and supporting development of shoulders, hindquarters, back muscles and ligaments, as a form of thorough but riderless exercise. Same as jogwork/pacework for harness training, for harness racing purposes (but not the fast work on the hard track, as that wasn't our game).


If you're ground driving, you may as well start driving, and perhaps ploughing your fields! ;-)


No joke: When I was learning in Germany, we had a Bavarian Warmblood cross, and I learnt that the performance tests that had to be passed by Bavarian Warmblood stallions at the time for standing at stud included medium level dressage and jumping, plus carriage driving and _ploughing_! They were proud of having a good all-purpose breed.


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## SueC

Just found an old photo: Same cart and person driving but different horse - this is Julian's mother Juliet rising two and being cart-trained, in 1986, for education only at that point. Leader/babysitter as usual for this stage.












Trotting carts aren't the most comfortable things. If you play cello, you might be used to the position - if I was buying a cart to drive around in, it would have a nice comfortable seat for two!


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## bsms

Do horses get as spooky driving?

My wife and I still talk about moving. Don't know if we will. She had me type up a letter of resignation, hesitated to turn it in, and is now working more than ever. I'm not actually much of a trail rider, really. I'm happiest in a familiar area. I'd love to have 5 acres even, with an oval track around the property and criss-crossing trails. That would be enough that Bandit and I could get in short gallops, lots of trotting, but not have to turn, turn, turn like in a little arena.

I think Bandit would blossom doing cart work. Of course, I know nothing about it. But even in our little arena, he seems to enjoy trotting like this:








​ 
I'm guessing he'd enjoy pulling me along with no weight on his back. But not on the paved roads where 90% of his spooks occur, and not in our tiny round-pen sized arena. But a sandy, oval track, even if not very big? I'm guessing he'd take to it like I take to jogging on my own two legs. The poor boy hauled a LOT of weight when younger. I think he'd really enjoy pulling a light cart.


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## Fimargue

I have no experience driving, but I'm guessing the cart does not help if the horse has a habit of spooking. That's why the driving breeds, like French Trotters, are pretty stoic, most of them spook at nothing in my experience.


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## SueC

Ah, @*Fimargue* ! The French Trotter!  That was my first horse:











And of course you see them where you work! I've not seen one since this mare died in 1984, as she was the only French Trotter mare in Australia. She was born in Orne, Normandy; say hello to a real French Trotter for me next time you see one!

So this is how it was: When I was 9 years old, my parents bought two horses - one of which they said they were buying specifically for me to ride - this huge chestnut French Trotter mare, well-trained in basic dressage and sold specifically as a child's riding horse because of her character, and the fact that she'd been so maternal to her foals, and to the owners' grandchildren. She and I got along famously, and she very much filled the emotional gap I had in my life from having a difficult relationship with my parents (the word _relationship_ is really a misnomer) - she had mothered all these foals, and she seemed to see that I was kind of orphaned, and she really, really adopted me. We were inseparable. When she figured out I had trouble reaching her back (16.2hh mare), she would lower her neck for me to hang across and then gently elevate it so I could slide on her back for riding bareback. I don't think anybody had trained her to do that, I think she just worked it out. And I could ride her anywhere, in groups or alone, and she'd take care of me. (There's a few photos of us back in this journal.) She'd slow down to let me rebalance if she felt me going out of balance. And this wasn't a plodder type horse, this was a mare who had raced in her youth, and who loved nothing better than to stretch out her legs and do her unbelievable flying trot, that felt like floating on a hang-glider. She was adventurous and spirited and loved to go far and wide.

Alas, I had her for little over two years before my parents took her off me when we got to Australia, because they had suddenly got the notion that they wanted to breed racehorses. And here's what I didn't know, and only learnt much later, because I was test riding the horse in an indoors arena when my parents had this conversation with the previous owner: The reason she was being sold as a child's riding horse was that she had a difficult birth with the last foal and the supervising veterinarian strongly advised against breeding her again, as there was a high risk she would not survive. So it turns out my parents knew this, but they bred her anyway. She had another foal, and bled out immediately after the birth. Noone could save her. I watched her life drain away. She was just 15. I really can't, to this day, understand how anyone could knowingly do something like that. Take a supposed gift horse off a child and tell her, "Well, you didn't pay for her, so she's not really yours." And breed her even though they knew the veterinary advice. Most unbelievably uncool. I ride her great-grandson now, but much as I love him, I wouldn't have traded that mare for anything. Or risked her life for what seems to me to be sheer vanity.










I bought my Arabian yearling after selling a lot of my valuables and begging a chores mortgage for the rest, because I never wanted to have a horse taken off me again like that again. I wanted my name on that piece of paper.

These days I do have the grandson who most looks like her here as well; the chestnut in this clip:






This was half a year ago, when we adopted Julian (with the blaze); he was meeting the others and walking on a pasture for the first time in his life. The dark one with the faint star is Sunsmart - he and Julian are by the same stallion. Chasseur, the chestnut, is Sunsmart's uncle. We had his mother too, but had to put her down late last year, which is why we adopted Julian.

And @*bsms* , horses spook just as much in carts, with worse consequences like getting tangled in wire fences with the cart attached, falling over and getting stuck under gear, etc. I'd far rather ride out a spooking horse, than have to drive one. This is why generally, harness trainers train their horses on familiar tracks at home.

Sorry @*gottatrot* , if I've just bled all over your carpet... I never told in writing that mare's demise, until this week. People were always telling me how lucky I was to have this idyllic childhood, on my journal, and it was just so ironic...


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## bsms

"_So it turns out my parents knew this, but they bred her anyway. She had another foal, and bled out immediately after the birth._"

My "like" was for your sharing the story. But it is impossible to like that! That is obscene.

Maybe someday I'll have 5 acres with a sandy track around the perimeter, and my neighbors will wonder about the skinny horse hauling the old guy around in a cart...


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## Hondo

@bsms Draft horse's bridles have blinders on them to reduce side and rear vision, I'd suppose to reduce spooks.

Even with this however, I experienced a run away spook from a team I was driving at age 9-10 when I left a string a cross the road with a can tied at each end. When one's foot caught the string, away they went!


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## phantomhorse13

@gottatrot : so sorry you and Hero parted company, but good boy for standing and waiting for you once he made sure the monster would eat you first :wink:

@SueC : there are no words for what your parents did to that mare and to you. 


As for driving, I cannot imagine a circumstance where hooking Phin to a cart would result in anything but chaos, destruction, and injury.


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## knightrider

There was an earlier thread on whether or not blinders are effective. When I was learning and teaching my horses to drive, I researched the blinders or not issue and decided "not." Since we are not actually horses, we just don't know whether blinders help or hinder horses decisions to spook. I read in several places that having a sound behind them that they couldn't see was actually more worrisome than being able to see what was behind them. That made more sense to me, since I had VERY SMART appaloosas, so I did without the blinders. 

I would never drive a spooky, jumpy horse, and my Pasos do not have the temperament to drive, in my opinion. You need a horse that has no problem standing STILL and quietly, not inching sideways when eager to go off.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...As for driving, I cannot imagine a circumstance where hooking Phin to a cart would result in anything but chaos, destruction, and injury.


OK. Wiping tears from my eyes! Better go blow my nose, too!

If Bandit could learn it, I think he'd like it. But the learning....I have this vision of scenes from the Ben Hur chariot race!








knightrider said:


> ...You need a horse that has no problem standing STILL and quietly, not inching sideways when eager to go off.


Realistically, that would leave Bandit off the list. Maybe chubby little Cowboy.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> but going downhill? it kills my hips, since it forces them open wider than is comfortable for this older body.
> 
> 
> 
> And, it puts my knee really vertically under me.


I thought about your post this morning when returning from a cool-of-the-day early morning ride. Hondo stopped on a steep decent into a creek bottom to eat some water grass, one if his favorites.

Ok, I know he's not "supposed" to stop unless I tell him, but he has been given carte blanche to stop whenever he wishes providing we're not really doing anything other than perambulating, and he knows the difference.

Anyhow, with my body vertical, my upper legs were left feeling bent backwards a little, with a bit of pain in my left hip which bothers me some at times anyhow.

I kicked my foot out of the stirrup and let it hang where the heel of my boot rested completely in front of my stirrup covers. It felt soooooo good that I did the same with my right. And that felt good also.

So as I sat there with Hondo happily munching away, I began to......here it comes....wonder how a stirrup could be made to accommodate various foot position preferences during one ride.

Brainstorming Rule No 1. There are no bad ideas no matter how goofy they may at first sound. They may just inspire someone to think of something really grand!

So the first shot out of my (brain?) was to have an elongated stirrup supported at each end and completely open on top. There would need to be a side board to prevent the foot from slipping off the side. And perhaps the frontal portion should be curved slightly upward.

That way a person could put weight on the stirrup where ever the foot happened to fall.

This of course from a perambulator. But I do think it is a problem that could use a solution. Weight in the stirrup tends to move the stirrup directly below the pivot point of the leathers or fender.

I know! An AI equipped stirrup mount!


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## SueC

knightrider said:


> There was an earlier thread on whether or not blinders are effective. When I was learning and teaching my horses to drive, I researched the blinders or not issue and decided "not." Since we are not actually horses, we just don't know whether blinders help or hinder horses decisions to spook. I read in several places that having a sound behind them that they couldn't see was actually more worrisome than being able to see what was behind them. That made more sense to me, since I had VERY SMART appaloosas, so I did without the blinders.


I agree with your reasoning. I also think horses have object permanence!  What do you think?


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## Hondo

Wow! That jump with the chariot was awesome! Pretty sure that was done by a professional stand in, but still.......


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## knightrider

[quote 
I agree with your reasoning. I also think horses have object permanence! What do you think?][/quote]

Yes, I think they do. They certainly call and listen for their buddies when far out on the trail. At times they do seem to notice when something is missing on the trail that was always there, like the junked TV on the side of the dirt road.


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## bsms

"_Famed stuntman Yakima Canutt was brought in to coordinate all the chariot race stunt work and train the drivers...

...Marton [__who directed the chariot race] said Boyd and Heston really did all their own driving, although for the scene where Judah's chariot flips over a crashed one, Canutt's son Joe was brought in. Driving toward the wreck at great speed, the younger Canutt could not hear his father screaming "Too fast! Too Fast!" 

The chariot easily sailed over the wreckage but bounced hard when it came down, flipping Joe over the front and between the two horses. Luckily, he had instinctively grabbed the cross-bar on the chariot to keep from falling out and under the horses' hooves, but he was still dragged for some feet. He was rushed to emergency care but suffered only a cut on his chin requiring four stitches. Marton called it the most spectacular stunt he had ever seen.

The shot where Messala's body is dragged behind and under his own chariot was tried first with a dummy, but it looked bad. Boyd was protected with some steel pads and did it himself._"

Behind the Camera - Ben-Hur


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## Fimargue

@SueC, oh, Sue, that's devastating... What a horrible thing to go through just because of your parents' selfishness and spitefulness. 

I like French Trotters, they have a lot of try and presence. I used to ride a mare that I would just gallop in the open, she never lost her head. Wish I could send you some from here, as there are so many looking for homes. After the racing they go to associations and are sold for something like 900 euros often. 

My friend's and mentor's heart horse was also a French Trotter. She is classically trained and taught him all the way up to piaffe and passage. He was one of those horses (mine is some as well) extremely jealous of their person spending time with other horses. So much that he would give hard time to the horse who came back in the field after being ridden by his owner. Once he was ridden by someone else in a lesson and when the person got on, he lifted his back and the person was panicking that he is about spook... So Friend said "No, he is just waiting for your signal. That's how it should feel like."
@phantomhorse13, omg, no, if your image is anything like I think would happen with Talila... lol. She likes me to be "there" all the time. When she gets tense (she used to bolt, or spin), I squeeze/vibrate the reins, as in holding hands. Can't imagine what kind of fiasco it would be me being behind her. Not that I would even get the cart attached and going with her and survive that lol.
@bsms, his whipping of the horses was hard to watch, I was very pleased when he got smashed! lol. But yes, something like that I can imagine could be in ordeal - with tighter spins possibly lol. Would probably end up doing ones own stunt.

I think we can all agree that driving horses need to be em... the less adventurous... type and not that with a mind of 5 year old who had a bit too much fruit loops for breakfast.


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## Hondo

@bsms Wow. I thought the guy almost falling was part of the plan. I guess he almost really did bite it?

Quote: "He was one of those horses (mine is some as well) extremely jealous of their person spending time with other horses."

@Fimargue I had no idea that was somewhat normal. Hondo will absolutely freak out if I put the halter on Rimmey when bringing them into the pen from the field. Once I decided to lead Rimmey around with Hondo's saddle on to see how Rimmey acted with it. Hondo was going so crazy leaping circles around us that I turned around, returned and removed the saddle, vowing to never ever put Hondo's saddle on anybody else again. He may have some French Trotter in his lineage?


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## SueC

Fimargue said:


> @*SueC* , oh, Sue, that's devastating... What a horrible thing to go through just because of your parents' selfishness and spitefulness.


It's classical narcissism. When the mare died, _I_ was comforting _them_ because they were hysterical, and because after all it was _"their"_ horse. :icon_rolleyes: And because their feelings were the only ones that counted around the place. I was 13. Nobody comforted me. I had, and I still have, this fuzzy comforter blanket, deep red on one side, cream on the other, with flowers in reverse colours. And I'd put that on top of my bed and close the door and crawl under it till I was completely concealed, and cry quietly to myself - it was the only expression that got.

You were talking about a wall. You have to build a wall around things like that as a kid, or you won't make it out of childhood with a fair shot at life. It would just kill you, and you've got to be stoic and put your head down and keep on doing the things that you think will eventually get you out of there, and you're counting the days. Because obviously, that's not the only terrible thing that happened, as you can imagine; the constant violence and daily screaming, name-calling and putdowns all around also wasn't a picnic for a kid, especially an isolated kid; really shocking stuff happened regularly.

But that mare's story, I never talked about it, didn't even write it in my (paper) journal. It was too difficult. Plus, you're conditioned not to tell, because if you present the family in an unfavourable light to others, you'll get bashed (as a kid). Writing about it takes you right back there, right to that little annual ring in the tree that's you. To the feelings you had to sweep under the carpet. My husband knew; he was the only person I told about this. When we had to put down her granddaughter last year, it all came spilling out again.

Life isn't an easy thing, Fimargue, but I do believe it is a beautiful thing nevertheless. These kinds of experiences obviously have their down sides, but also all this sort of crap becomes a sort of...fertiliser, you know? That you can grow things in.

I heard someone say, and I think it was a wonderful image, that if you had a big hole in your heart, you had a big space which you could choose to fill with wonderful and worthwhile things. It doesn't mean you won't hurt, or you won't cry, or it's not awfully difficult to deal with this sort of stuff. But I do think it's true that it makes room for things of beauty as well. Do you know this poem?

*On Joy and Sorrow*

_Kahlil Gibran_

Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight. 

Some of you say, "Joy is greater thar sorrow," and others say, "Nay, sorrow is the greater."
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits, alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed. 

Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.​













> I like French Trotters, they have a lot of try and presence. I used to ride a mare that I would just gallop in the open, she never lost her head.


Yes, Dame du Buisson was unflappable as well. Amazing. Unflappable _and_ speedy and adventurous!



> Wish I could send you some from here, as there are so many looking for homes. After the racing they go to associations and are sold for something like 900 euros often.


Thank you for the thought!  I'd like that, for my next riding horse. They're fabulous horses.




> My friend's and mentor's heart horse was also a French Trotter. She is classically trained and taught him all the way up to piaffe and passage. He was one of those horses (mine is some as well) extremely jealous of their person spending time with other horses. So much that he would give hard time to the horse who came back in the field after being ridden by his owner. Once he was ridden by someone else in a lesson and when the person got on, he lifted his back and the person was panicking that he is about spook... So Friend said "No, he is just waiting for your signal. That's how it should feel like."


Hahaha!  Yes, that mare was my first ever taste of that "woosh" experience of a good trotter. It has gears ordinary riding horses don't. Very addictive. Also they tend to drop their hindquarters really noticeably when they go from a medium trot to a "woosh" trot. Because they're then spreading their rear legs wide to pass the front legs, to step around them. It's a bit like liftoff in a plane! 

That jealousy, that was the French mare all over. I bought the yearling Arabian the month I was told the French mare would go to stud and be a broodmare from now on. I could only afford her because she was half-price because of the big drought at the time in Australia. And because I bought a yearling, not an older horse. And she was put in the paddock with the other two, and when I started working with her and the French mare saw it, she looked sad and hung her bottom lip, and when I put the filly back in the paddock she'd chase her around like a banshee and take chunks out of her coat - something she reserved for this filly only. Because I was working with this filly, and she didn't want to be replaced. And I'd chase her around to try to protect the filly, and that made her even sadder. As an adult I get a sinking feeling in my stomach remembering that, and wish I'd spent more time with the French mare after she was taken off me... but I think she was OK again before she died, less than a year later.

Just say hi to one for me when you see one!  That'd be really lovely!


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## Dragoon

SueC, I am filled with tears at your story...it is also my story, though I had no horses as a kid. Only the imaginary ones that no one could take from me. My screen name is the name of my imaginary black stallion, the only friend I had growing up. Its so awful that we only get one chance to grow up and such great damage can be done by those in a 'parenting' role. I admire that you seem to be a healthy, functioning adult, and a happy one. Not all make it out of the war zone whole...
Thanks for sharing the story of dame, she deserves to be remembered and admired. Don't feel so badly about not spending more time and attention on her, remember, children are just not aware of the impermanence of life. I doubt you thought she'd ever be 'gone'. That you'd have years of visiting her and she'd still be around, in your life, in some way. Then she was gone... such a painful lesson...
I learned my lesson, losing my first dog when he was only four. Four! I still regret not spending more time...
Now I try to live every day so I have no regrets...I keep in mind I may not have my pony forever, and I make the time. Yes, I am 'behind' on my artwork, and reading...there are movies I'd like to see...but I go to the barn as much as I can. I won't have Mouse forever...

About the horse jealousies...my gelding is possessive of me. He allows only a small amount of petting of other horses, then he will drive them off. Just needs to flick an ear, really, and they move away. I ride a TB mare often. But I obey the horse pecking order and always greet Mouse first, give him his treat first, etc. They are OK with this. Now I am working with the haflinger baby. And my gelding is not in their paddock. But the mare always greets me first, and drives away the other horses when i go out there. In absense of my horse, she has claimed me. So I rub her forehead before collecting the haflinger baby. There's very little biting when I observe their rules. 
I asked a girl who's horse is in that field if the mare drives the others away from her, but she doesn't. The TB only acts possessive of me. So I guess horses claim humans as theirs, and the other horses respect that?...


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## SueC

I'm so sorry, Dragoon. :hug: I don't know why there has to be so much misery, but there is so much of this about, when you scratch the surface. So many stories with beginnings like this. I've often said it's ironic that people need a license to drive a car, but anybody can have children just like that.




> I admire that you seem to be a healthy, functioning adult, and a happy one. Not all make it out of the war zone whole...


Thank you for your well-wishes. You know, I wonder, is anyone truly whole? Are we all not works in progress? But I do get what you are saying. You see people living in the street and know it could have been you, and that in a way it is you. You see people having substance addictions over the top of all this stuff, like a problem that has rolled down a hill and accumulated more problems like a snowball, and soon it's an avalanche. It's very sad. But we can reach out to others, and I think it makes a difference. The little things especially make a big difference. Smiling at people with warmth. Using your manners. Genuinely caring. Actually seeing and hearing others.

I think it's very true what you said about children not expecting death.




> Now I try to live every day so I have no regrets...I keep in mind I may not have my pony forever, and I make the time. Yes, I am 'behind' on my artwork, and reading...there are movies I'd like to see...but I go to the barn as much as I can. I won't have Mouse forever...


I find it so interesting that so many people who've been through bad early experiences have good bonds with animals, and artistic sensibilities, and a love of reading and imagination (alternative universes you could go to), and they think deeply, and take so little for granted.

I also rather like the quote, "I thought I was an hour or a year behind, but the hours and the years are only time." 

I liked your horse observations. It's interesting interacting with another, very large sort of species!  Since the last lead mare died, I have a boys' bunch here, and they have all gotten more affectionate with me, presumably to make up for what they are missing from their lead mare, who was very social and affectionate. I have an oldie, a softie and two "tough boys" - and the tough boys now say rather often, "Can we have a cuddle too? And would you have a look at my itchy ear, please?" It seems I am their only lead mare now, not just the two-legged lead mare. I remind them to be nice to each other when they start pulling faces, and it really influences their dynamics.

Best wishes to you, and everyone here! :cowboy:


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## Fimargue

Hondo said:


> @
> 
> Quote: "He was one of those horses (mine is some as well) extremely jealous of their person spending time with other horses."
> 
> [MENTION=183498]Fimargue I had no idea that was somewhat normal. Hondo will absolutely freak out if I put the halter on Rimmey when bringing them into the pen from the field. Once I decided to lead Rimmey around with Hondo's saddle on to see how Rimmey acted with it. Hondo was going so crazy leaping circles around us that I turned around, returned and removed the saddle, vowing to never ever put Hondo's saddle on anybody else again. *He may have some French Trotter in his lineage*?


Or Arab.

I don't know if it's so normal, as not many people have said that in person. My mare usually has this long stare, but sometimes she takes her space and comes towards me ears pinned shouldering the other horse away. After that long stare if I continue to pay attention to the other horse, and especially take her away, the energy changes between us. I sense that she is depressed. She started to put weight on when I sold my second mare - that or the grass she is on, but for sure her behaviour changed when she left and is back to way it was. 

I'm only hoping she is going to take it better if the other horse is a male. She has been somewhat more tolerant for that.
@SueC, thank you for the poem. I shall read it with thought. 

I used to have these dreams about hiding. I was hiding underneath a table and a threatening man was looking in from the window, and then I was on a roof, very close to the edge and I was curled in a ball and felt safe as long as I was like that. 

Listening to shouting and violence... that was what I woke up to every night for sometime. I get this stress reaction still if I suddenly hear very loud voices.

I really admire your point of view about life. And that you came out of that so whole and true. 

There is this Finnish song campaigning against domestic violence and it goes: 
"If you hit me one more time, I will kill you
And I'll hit you with something you have used to beat me"

And that's how I felt. I was so full of rage. And it took me ages to get over that anger, then I got on with life and found some balance. Then I found horses again and discovered that I could find peace inside of me because someone was needing me like that. 

My problem is not the past so much anymore, but how I can't get rid off this depression. I do feel good when I'm with Talila - well and other horse's occasionally, but other than that, I'm just never happy.
@Dragoon, I'm sorry you had to go through that hell as well. :hug:
@gottatrot, sorry to do this very much needed therapy session in your journal!


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, I do appreciate your letting us bleed all over your journal. 

My heart aches for those of you who suffered such difficult childhoods. Mine was pretty awful also. My parents hated each other and it was always a battle zone. I escaped for hours and hours in the woods on my horse.

When my first husband left me for another woman, a dear friend sent me a book of poems by Rainer Maria Rilke, and I came across this one, which I discovered later is a famous quote. It helped me tremendously. I thought about it quite a lot, and it fits right in with your poem that you quoted @SueC.

So, here it is. I hope it helps you guys. I love it. 

By Rainer Maria Rilke “How should we be able to forget those ancient myths that are at the beginning of all peoples, the myths about dragons that at the last moment turn into princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave. Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something helpless that wants help from us.

So you must not be frightened if a sadness rises up before you larger than any you have ever seen; if a restiveness, like light and cloudshadows, passes over your hands and over all you do. You must think that something is happening with you, that life has not forgotten you, that it holds you in its hand; it will not let you fall. Why do you want to shut out of your life any uneasiness, any miseries, or any depressions? For after all, you do not know what work these conditions are doing inside you.”


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## gottatrot

Beautiful, beautiful words all. 

I think people see beauty and art in different things, in a painting, in the structure of a math problem, in a well designed building, in a sunset over the ocean. I also see art in words, and something like what @knightrider quoted is beautiful like a painting. It gave me chills.

You all are saving lives. Saving your own lives, your horses' lives, and even some you don't even know about. It's very difficult to keep the mind thinking sharply throughout a long night shift at work, but the worst is when there is literally nothing to do except sit alone and watch a heart beat run across a screen. I break up the time with a little bit of this and that, but the forum is nicely mentally stimulating. Some people sit and doze but I feel very responsible, knowing that a life might depend on my brain staying awake.

Just the other night it was already 4:30 am when suddenly I was the "it" person, the one who had to see that storm clouds were gathering, the grim reaper was hanging around and it was time to gather the soldiers and start into battle. I could never get my brain up to speed if I were half asleep. So we saved a life, there were fast decisions and actions happening on all sides, but these conversations definitely helped me stay alert and ready. Stimulants leave me kind of jittery, but keeping the brain awake with the natural stimulation of conversation leaves the engine running more smoothly. 

But I get behind...
Let's see, I have to say I've seen enough near catastrophe when driving mini horses in carts to be very wary about driving any bigger horse with even a slightly excitable temperament. For control, all you really have is the horse's head and your voice. And there is so much equipment to get tangled up, hung up, as well as a cart can potentially propel you high into the air. It can be difficult to get out of one cleanly even when you're _stopped_. I've tripped myself and fallen down exiting an "easy entry" (but not easy exit) cart right in the middle of a parade. 

Love the stories about horses getting jealous. It makes sense to me, I've observed that they tend to get possessive of other horses in the field. "This one's mine, stay away." I've not figured out if it is protective, possessive, or what. A lot of times it can be to the detriment of the "protected" horse when the possessive one drives him around the field constantly to keep the others at bay. 

Self examination...it's therapy, it's great. 
I think we have a choice in how we respond to adversity in life. But sometimes we don't have insight into how or why we are coping. I was raised in a very loving home, my parents have never divorced and they never fought. They are wonderful people. 
Once I remember my mom threw a carrot at my dad and cried when she was pregnant and that was traumatic for me because it was so rare. 

But my mom was so loving that she was afraid her kids would get into trouble or abused or turn into bad adults. So she protected us to death. She didn't protect us from physical danger, for some reason it was not her fear that we would die in an accident so we played rough and hard outside all day. But she was afraid of us being influenced wrongly, or ending up with bad people. Our social interactions were limited to certain safe groups. We were homeschooled, which I actually think was wonderful for us and how I learned to be an independent thinker. But it was difficult as a kid to understand all the control, and there was a lot of "no" without a reason why. 

So at puberty I became anorexic for a few years. It wasn't something I understood, but now I realize people have to feel like they have something in their life they can control. No one can control what you eat. It did worry my mother, but I think it was better in her mind than if I did drugs or ran around with a wild crowd. I felt loved, and I knew my mom wanted the best for me. I was never an anxious person, just very shy, and I didn't have it in me to act out if I was frustrated. So I just controlled my own self very rigidly. It didn't feel like I was punishing myself, but I found that both exercise and hunger release some good feelings in the body. 

Eventually I realized I was harming myself, rather than "being healthy," as I told myself and others. Logic won in the end, but it was very frightening when I decided to stop the tight control. It felt like I was going to lose control over everything in my life. Instead, I gained a little weight, and then I did get a little out of control and ate too much, but it wasn't the end of the entire world as I'd feared. Because of all these experiences, food still has a bit of a negative association in my mind. Since I taught myself to feel badly about eating for years, and obsess about food types and calories, I both sometimes get a negative feeling when I eat, and also it feels like my brain got tired of thinking about food so I prefer not to think about it. 

Some things I still can't get over, like I decide where I'm healthy and I just stay that weight. I can't just gain 5 lbs, mentally. My body can easily gain 5 lbs but my mind can't. It stresses me to gain weight even if I don't behave like a classic anorexic and allow myself to eat regular portions and eat any type of food out there without reading labels and such. It's a compromise. But I do it now with very little thought or emotion, although sometimes I go too far the other way and don't think about food so much that I forget to buy or eat it often enough. 

All of this from a loving mother, a great home and the best of intentions. But if my mom could cause issues with her kids (my siblings have had some struggles like this too), I can't imagine how much damage can be caused from abusive and uncaring parents. My sister says we all could have turned out terribly just in response to being so controlled, but none of us did because somehow we knew that it was done with good intentions and love. 

But this all factors in subconsciously to why I've never wanted my own children. I know my mom tried very hard to do a wonderful job. I feel like I would do much worse, because she was such a sacrificing person. She spent so much of her time either educating us (she was a teacher), making us meals, taking us places, or bringing us to the library. She spent so much money on our school books, and we had a computer when they first came out. My sister points out that my mom set the standard so high that we always felt like we failed. She and I both feel like our houses are just disasters, although they would seem clean and well kept to most people. We can't match my mother's level - she had us cleaning the cracks all the time and everything was always tidy. 

I also never knew how I would deal with having to gain weight for pregnancy, and worried about that mental struggle. Again, the feeling of being out of control, and worrying that I would not be able to overcome it and somehow harm a baby. And then having to think about feeding a kid, making all those meals. It might cure me for once and all, but brain chemicals change the structure of the brain and mine has dealt with this for many years. I know it would be very stressful. 

Then add in that my mom had another child ten years after my younger sister, when I was twelve. Since my mom was older, I had tons of child rearing duty and it was not something I thought was enjoyable, although I loved my brother. This was also around the time I became anorexic - perhaps a stress trigger. I love kids, other people's kids, but somehow having to take care of a baby when I was supposed to be going through puberty but wasn't, since I was too thin, somehow it seems to have changed my chemistry. 

I've never been able to feel something I see other people have, my mom and sister included, when they are around babies and little children. "Mother" didn't develop. I care for others, nurture people and animals, but nothing in me feels like a mother. This is not sad for me, just a fact like being a woman instead of a man. I think some people don't realize that woman and mother are not necessarily synonymous. 

Now my mom has no ability to truly love an animal. Some dogs we had as kids were part of the family but if they did one thing wrong she'd get rid of them almost impulsively. I remember she put a dog down we had as a kid due to what I now know was a bladder infection. Dog was defective, dog was put to sleep. She always lectured me about how animals were not important, people were. I know I don't love animals in defiance to my mom, it was born in me. But there was no way for her to relate.

My dad is a very passive, kind and wonderful person. He backed up my mom all the way in everything. He also is the best debater I've ever met. If my mom wanted to say no, she'd say no and then say "Have your dad explain why." Which led to lengthy debates that led down rabbit trails on every subject in the universe, and it would never lead to a definite conclusion. We'd start out with why my mom didn't want me to have a dog, and end up trying to figure out if there could actually be a bigfoot. 

It's interesting to figure out why we are who we are. I was a very shy and passive person, and animals drew me out of my shell. They helped me learn how to be assertive, because you can't train a horse or dog with timidity. And if you can handle a horse, you can certainly handle a much smaller, belligerent human.
They helped me believe in myself, and horses especially taught me something that probably changed my life the most, which was that you can do amazing things with a creature so large you have no real ability to control them, and that you're never really in control in life after all. In life, you fall, and you get up again. And you keep falling. But you keep getting up. The lows can be low, but are ephemeral, and they will lead to the highest highs.


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## knightrider

> And if you can handle a horse, you can certainly handle a much smaller, belligerent human.


Love your wise and thoughtful words of wisdom! Very well said! I had to laugh out loud at this quote because I was a teacher for 32 years. When I had a child acting out really badly, and we were talking privately, I would say, "You know I bring horses to their knees. You think I can't manage you?" (I used to teach all my horses to bow).

Also, when the whole class was being horrible, I used to tell them, "I didn't take this job and accept this low pay because I wanted to be a policeman. I took this job because I love kids and wanted to spend time with them. This job is supposed to be fun and that's why we don't get paid very much. If I wanted to be a policeman, I would have been one and gotten paid a lot more." For some reason these words often settled them down.


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## SueC

@*knightrider* , very amusing!  I once explained in passing to a principal I was chatting to that Strategy X worked with both teenagers and horses. And she was so _shocked_, and said to me, "But this is terrible! You can't treat them like _animals_!" :rofl: And of course you guys know me, so I certainly wasn't talking about whipping anyone or showing 'em who's boss. :rofl: It was about associating learning with positive things, about quiet persistence, about lavish use of genuine praise for things well done, and good timing.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot What a post! Along with the wisdom, I got one big smile out of it when your Mom threw a carrot at your dad  I'll bet she quickly repented for her viciousness!

So much stuff in the post. I did not truly learn to love an animal until my last dog died. And I never imagined I could experience love for a horse. Love a horse? What the heck?

Really enjoyed the article in this months Equus about the guy who got his first horse for Christmas as did I.


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## SueC

:rofl: ...your signature, @Hondo! Wonderful! 

Thanks for a great poem, @knightrider, it's one I have to keep reading again because it's a goldmine.

Thanks also to @gottatrot for a magnificent post and for being such a kind host. (Do you serve coffee? ;-))


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## gottatrot

Probably most of us wish people treated each other like we treat our animals. 

Sadly, I let my barn girl fall off Penny again yesterday.

Everything was safe, in my mind. We were really very careful! We went down to the beach, but it was Saturday and hotter inland at the city, so I knew it would be busy. The beach was crowded, people were even sitting on the dune bank we always walk down to access the beach. I offered that if Barn Girl didn't mind walking and jogging, we could lead the horses through the chaos to give them the experience without being too dangerous.

Barn girl was up for it, and we led the horses along the beach for about a mile. They both spooked a couple times but we were able to pass easily by some tents and chairs and kites that might have been challenging otherwise. We had them do some good trotting too. Hero went all the way down the dune for the first time without one buck or kick. Downhill! 

We saw the same deer that had spooked Nala and Hero hanging out in the same spot. So on the way back we kept a close watch for the little deer, and there she was again. But since we all knew she was going to be there, no one spooked. 

Back inside our own fields, I found a flat, open area and said we should have the horses trot around in some big circles just for exercise and I thought it would help Barn Girl work on her seat some more. We trotted about half the circle, and then Penny exited the circle and began cantering, then galloping toward home. 
They were immediately out of sight, and Hero instantly felt upset, so I hopped off. He began running in circles around me and bucking, kicking, and whinnying for Penny. 

Shoot. It took me a minute to get Hero safely to where I could see Barn Girl sitting on the ground, and I yelled to make myself heard over Hero's vibrating whinnies and she hollered back that she was fine. 

Penny came galloping back, took a loop and then headed off again. 
Barn girl swore she was OK so I manipulated Hero into the outdoor arena and kept the gate open wide, hoping Penny might head back again and end up inside. She did show up again, now cantering, and missed the arena gate but stood looking at Hero outside. Then she dropped her head and started grazing, and Barn Girl went and grabbed her. All the tack was still undamaged.

To my chagrin, I realized both Nala's rider's BF and Barn Girl had been riding an essentially untrained horse, and we'd been getting by on temperament alone. Remembering everything I'd been told about her history, it finally sunk in. Started under saddle and given a few rides on ACE, that had to be a shady trainer situation. Then nothing for a few months. Then sent to a NH trainer for 30 days. Then an occasional ride with an OK but very passive rider. 

I'd been realizing that this rider had seemed fine on the two occasions I'd seen her on Penny, but there had been several well controlled horses along, a slow pace and we'd thought the bursts into canter were because the rider had asked. Now I think the rider didn't have trouble riding the canter, so she just went with it knowing Penny would slow eventually. 

After that, Nala's BF, where she just did whatever she wanted. Then Barn Girl who was trying to direct Penny but was not remotely in charge. What was I thinking? I'd never even been on Penny myself or evaluated her. 

We brought the horses into the arena and I had Barn Girl walk Penny while I did a short bit of walking and trotting on Hero for a positive experience after his scare of seeing Penny gallop away. He was very calm. 

Unfortunately, I learned that the loose shank curb is not going to work for him. He loves the mouthpiece. Had a great deal of fun too, because as we walked and trotted on the beach he figured out he could take one of the shanks into his mouth and hold it, and shake it around. I could just imagine the fun we'd have trotting down the beach with me riding, and him grabbing the shank, squealing and bucking around. OK, no floppy shanks for Hero.

After untacking Hero I let him loose in the arena and got on Penny. I cued her to walk. Nope. I unlocked her feet and we went around a little. Her NH training did have her following her head a bit, but it seemed like she didn't know a regular cue to slow or stop, but knew a one rein stop. Now that she was tired, getting her to trot was a huge chore. She felt three times as green as Hero. Some horse for beginners.

Barn Girl got on and I showed her how to cue, escalate the cue if there was no response, and then go immediately to neutral when Penny was walking nicely. I showed her how to have Penny follow her head with her body through a curve. 
She also practiced the one rein stop, since that is what Penny knows. The plan is for no more riding on the beach, no more green riders on in the open until Penny has more actual training. 

I'm going to teach Barn Girl how to work her in the arena, and then I'll ride her in the field a few times and teach her not to tank off for the barn at will. Judging by her size and thick neck I better eat my Wheaties before working on that. But first I'll get a good feel for her and make sure she understands that riders are not just backpacks to wear.


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## bsms

As a kid, I had dogs. My parents were pretty good - demanding, critical father who meant well but was, like me, overbearing at times. My sister and I got along. But we moved every 12-18 months. I was always the new kid on the block. I didn't learn about "Original Sin" from theologians. I learned it from how cruel young kids can be to outsiders.

So dogs were my release. Like the horses I have now, they had minimal training, no papers, and no serious dog-man would want to follow my example. But the dogs, like my horses, judged me more on my intentions that my behavior. If I screwed something up yesterday, well, that was yesterday and today is a new day, so we would need to find something new to screw up!

The dogs I have now? *Like my horses, they wouldn't be able to pass an obedience class.* They like people, adore kids, chase balls, curl up at our feet and live their lives in low-performance contentedness. I hadn't thought about it before, but my approach to horses is similar to my dealings with dogs. I'm not after "flash" or "brilliant movement" or "unquestioned obedience". Good thing, since I don't get it.

Instead I have low-key companions. I ride primarily for the pleasure of my horse's company. In return, I find them forgiving, good-natured, a little silly - and relaxed companions. Well, Mia wasn't exactly "relaxed"...but she drifted in that direction over 7 years.

I've always liked this picture of my DIL on Cowboy. No jumping, strutting, racing...just a couple of people enjoying a hike. That one of the people has four legs matters little:










This picture from World War One is MY idea of good horsemanship:​







​
Interesting discussion on how and why we relate to animals!


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ....To my chagrin, I realized both Nala's rider's BF and Barn Girl had been riding an essentially untrained horse, and we'd been getting by on temperament alone...
> 
> ...He loves the mouthpiece. Had a great deal of fun too, because as we walked and trotted on the beach he figured out he could take one of the shanks into his mouth and hold it, and shake it around...


I hired a pro to help me with Mia after several years of riding, including riding out on trails. I hired her at least a year after this photo was taken:








​ 
The trainer came 4 days a week. On the fourth day, she concluded Mia had never been taught any of the standard cues. Mia didn't move away from pressure, for example. Pressure, to Mia, meant "_Find Bob and get close to him!_" She concluded I had spent several years riding a largely unbroke horse, operating on lots of good will from both parties. The more I learn, the more I'm convinced my fake Australian saddle did a lot to keep me alive!

That was part of why standard advice on riding hadn't worked. Mia had never learned "standard riding"!

Don't know if it would help, but curb bits like this are meant to prevent a horse from mouthing the shank:











https://www.statelinetack.com/item/western-ss-med-arch-roller-hinged-futurity-bit/SLT735108/​
I've heard them called 7-shanks or Cavalry shanks. A Myler version looks like this...expensive though...










https://www.actionridertack.com/product-p/89-13335.htm​


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## Hondo

@SueC You used the word perambulation in one of your posts and when I Googled it to inspect the meaning I thought, "Yeah, that's what I want!" 

@gottatrot If I should ever happen to go for a ride with you on the beach I'd definitely be doing a LOT of leading from the ground/sand! Hondo's a lot better than four years ago, heck he hardly notices a flock of quail rising from the bushes at his feet, but he'd have a major melt down in that busy beach scenario.


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## knightrider

> OK, no floppy shanks for Hero.


At least not right now. My Chorro mouthed everything he could get his mouth on when he was young. (I got him as an uncut yearling). When I tried anything with shanks, he grabbed them constantly. I got on his back for the first time at age 3 and started riding him out 3 to 4 times a week at age 4.

I think he was about age 8 or 9 when I was able to put a short shank hackamore on him. It sits right near his mouth, but he leaves it alone. Also, he can manage the long shank hackamore nowdays at age 13. It took a while, but he's finally doing well with shanks.

By the way, a mouthy horse traditionally likes to do tricks. Tricks are fun for horse and handler and gives the horse a chance to show off and shine . . . and put his mouth on lots of things!


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## bsms

Rode Bandit briefly this morning. He once again was very concerned over the neighbor 2 houses down who went out to work in his yard without a shirt. I think Bandit agrees with me - old guys ought to wear shirts in public! Not sure he felt fear as much as disgust...:eek_color:

And the county, after 15 years of benign neglect, came and sealed the cracks in the road. Giant blacks snakes! Everywhere!

I'm pretty sure Bandit would consider every wave of the Pacific Ocean to be a personal assault on him, and a crowded beach would match his idea of Hell!


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## SueC

I just wanted to drop in a couple of resources for people who had, or are having, a tough time. The first one is a song I used to listen to on headphones in the dark when things were particularly crazy in the house I was growing up in. I know I'm always going on about this, but try to find nice headphones / speakers to listen to this on, because you really do need the bass range to get the most out of music, instead of tinny computer speakers that sound like a mobile telephone ringtone...






(And yes, once upon a time U2 were an authentic and very focused alternative band instead of a behemoth.)

A sort of funny story about this: I discovered headphones at 14. They had so many advantages. If I played my music on speakers, it wouldn't be too long before people (especially my father) were coming into my room, criticising my taste, aping the singers, jumping around doing caricatures. Saying, "Excuse me!" didn't really work, and "****** off out of my room!" would have got me a lecture on how I didn't own the room because I hadn't paid for it, and how I was living on their largesse, or even a fist in the face for not respecting my elders and betters, like that memorable (seared into memory, actually) time when I was 13 and committed the crime of putting up a Boy George poster in my room, and didn't back down and apologise. (A lot of people coming out of these circumstances have trouble with identity; it was sort of the opposite for me - it seemed to show me who I actually was, from the time I was three and insisted on tying my shoelaces myself, to my mother's annoyance - she likes kids best when they're totally dependent and don't know how to say "no" yet, or how to state opinions and preferences.) Anyway, at around that age I started keeping things that were really important to me emotionally to myself at home, and sort of hoarding them up like secret treasure. My music, my journal, my books. And I spent a lot of my daytimes riding for hours through the state forests on my own, or taking long walks in the country, or going down to the riverbank to sing little songs and look at the reflections in the water.

I only played the radio on speakers, and softly, doing homework etc, and then, if anyone complained about my taste, I could say, "It's the radio station; here's their phone number if you want to take it up with them." ;-) Headphones made me really learn about music, and learn to listen. When you really really focus, you hear so much, and notice patterns and structure and counterpoint, and why things were done. You can vary your focus with each time you listen to a song, in so many ways, and discover universes in a raindrop. It's also a workable form of meditation under circumstances like that - headphones are quite noise cancelling when people are screaming in the house, and listening like that really turns off the monkey chatter in your own brain. (I suppose I could have gone down other roads, like Death Metal or dancing naked to AC/DC, and I can see why people do!)

And now I'm _finally_ getting to the funny part. Phew! The funny part was sitting crosslegged on a mat on the floor in the dark in my room at age 15 with my headphones on, discovering alternative universes, alternative ways of thinking etc, when the door opened and the light got switched on and it was, "The family_ (BTW that's parents and eight-years-older, bullying, golden child brother with the sadistic streak) _are concerned about your behaviour. You're spending hours alone in your room in the dark instead of socialising with us. It's not normal. Are you experimenting with drugs?"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If any of this is overly familiar to a reader, one of the best online resources I've found on dysfunctional families is this blog:

https://littleredsurvivor.com/

Cherilyn is single-handedly writing the definitive textbook on _Narcissism 101_ and how to emerge from the fog of such a childhood and find your wings. Also strategies for dealing with people like that, and learning to see the patterns. I've never read better material on this subject, and wish I'd had this resource as a teenager. It would have saved me so much head-scratching, confusion and thinking in circles. Cherilyn personally escaped from a religious abusive family, and has developed an authentic form of Christianity for herself, but I don't think she's at all preachy and it shouldn't be too annoying if you're agnostic etc.

Thanks everyone; it's good to get stuff like that into the open with safe people, and I think all of us really benefited from reading each others' stories and thoughts. Plus, all this stuff is of course impossible to untangle from why, and how, we work with horses.

:hug: to all.


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## SueC

this!


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## gottatrot

I really like U2 since my DH introduced me to them about 20 years ago. 
When he was 14 in '81 they were still small time and came to play at a small bar in Portland. He is still disappointed he was too young to get in, while his older friend was able to go. It was a rough area, and apparently Bono's lyrics got stolen which meant he had to quickly write a lot of music for their upcoming album. DH was already a fan, although they were not well known. 

https://www.oregonlive.com/history/2016/03/u2_portland_stolen_briefcase_h.html

I like a lot of their songs, some are just always great like Beautiful Day. One I like that is not as popular is "Wild Honey." The sound is interesting and I identify with appearing sweet while having a braver, wild side. Sometimes I tell Amore she is Wild Honey. Super sweet but wild.


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## SueC

That was an excellent link! I knew it had been lost, and that's partly why _October_ is so raw and impressionistic, but had no idea the bag had ever been found! What a story!


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## SueC

I'm just going back to the topic of encouraging hindquarter engagement in young riding horses, doing a bit of thought-sharing. I'd previously said that all the harness-started Standardbred and /or Trotter breed horses (or crosses of these) I've personally ridden have never been lacking in that department. If they don't engage their hindquarters, they can't do what they do in harness. And that I've often thought that it's an advantage for them to have had so much athletic work before ever being asked to carry anything on their backs. They're already strong, fit and know how to move, before being asked to bear weight.

You've all seen this photo of the French mare:











Her hindquarters here are already starting to drop, and her hind leg is starting to swing very wide, and the tail going up like a flag, and she's not even trotting properly yet - but she's totally planning to, and soon!  I have very few riding photos from my childhood; it never really occurred to my parents to take photographs of what I was doing. They did have several cameras, and had lots and lots of photos of what _they_ were doing (there are literally hundreds of my father jogging or fast-working horses around a track, or racing with them), so most of the photos of horses and me from childhood were taken by third parties (in this case actually my brother, who had a camera and liked to tinker), or the occasional one under duress from them if I made a big song and dance about it.

So I don't have a photo of doing a flying trot on that mare, but have found some photos of a French trotter with similar action to hers to give you guys an idea:












I am totally not a fan of the fixed headcheck in harness racing horses; French Trotter Ourasi here is wearing one and unfortunately this means he has a very restricted head carriage, like that particular dressage horse @*bsms* posted on his thread earlier; obviously restricted in different ways, but both very restricted. If you must use a headcheck in harness racing, the running headcheck is much safer (imagine falling with your head tied up like that, and I've seen race falls many times - the horses can't balance themselves to help break their falls when the head is tied rigidly, by the back of the bridle and frequently via a really narrow additional overcheck bit, to the top of the driving saddle). With a running headcheck, the reins themselves go through rings to raise the rein angle upwards; sort of like a running martingale but with opposite action.

It's a great photo of the flying-trotting action though, with the enormous reach of the hind leg stepping far under the horse, and the amazing engagement of shoulders and hindquarters - these horses are truly 4WD racers. It's a really really stable trot to ride, like floating along on a turbo-charged cloud.











Same horse in the paddock:











With his trainer:











And on his 31st birthday:












When you ride that trot mounted, at top speed it looks like this:











Well, when race jockeys do this; obviously I ride in a different position, and with that kind of trot on that mare I was posting it and leaning slightly forward. The above photo is of Standardbreds in a mounted trotting race; they have a slightly different action. The old-fashioned French Trotter, like Dame du Buisson was (the breed has been much diluted by loads of Standardbred blood in the past three decades, which I think is a shame, because the real French Trotter was such a distinctive horse) - the action at the flying trot involved really dropping the hindquarters, flying the tail high, going very base-wide at the rear. Great fun to ride, and addictive. You ride with other breeds and the others start to gallop, and your horse just goes _whooosh_ and trots with huge, effortless ground-eating strides.  And of course they can canter and gallop, and do advanced dressage like @*Fimargue* 's example, and they are great jumpers, and smart, and adventurous, and sure-footed, and about as unflappable as a horse can get.

Here's Albatross, grandfather of both Sunsmart and Julian:












This is a pacer line Standardbred, so he's not trotting in this photo - although many good pacers are also good trotters. Julian is a natural pacer (i.e. it was in his natural repertoire in the paddock from the time he was little - and he's not related to Dame du Buisson) - but he's also a fabulous trotter. Here's Julian pacing when he was training on track:












Dame du Buisson was a real pure-trotter breed horse, and Sunsmart inherited this trait and much to my father's frustration, would never learn to pace. But what a trotter! At a time when there were no trotting gait harness races in Western Australia. Sunsmart carries himself more like Albatross though, he doesn't drop his rear end down like his great-grandmother (although his mother did). And even in his first year of saddle re-education, which is a completely different sort of frame, he was always so, so comfortable to ride when trotting; it's like sliding along frictionless on glass.











He flies his tail just like his great-grandmother did, if you compare it to the first photo - even though his tailset is a little lower.

Like every off-track harness horse, he had to get used to the idea that his head would no longer be forced upwards when he was running, and his head carriage was coming along nicely considering he still had much of his initially upside-down neck (post-racing) here. He's leaning very very softly on the bit here (harness horses seek contact with the reins), and he's lip-flapping with his bottom lip, which he always does when he's relaxed or up to something or wants more carrots. It makes hilarious sounds when he does it _in extremis_ - flub, flub, flub, flub, flub! I'm letting him find his own balance, and keeping contact really really light.

You can kind of see his neck here, taken on the same day:












His neck development 9 years later is really interesting:





I think it's been really informative for my own horsey education to re-educate a horse that came from a completely different discipline. I also really love riding engaged, forward horses.


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## Hondo

That's interesting how far those horses extend their hinds rearward. Wondering if they are genetically selected for that, trained, or both?

If trained, wondering what techniques are used to get them to extend their hinds that far back?


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## SueC

They do it naturally, Hondo, from the time they are babies. The selection process is basically for effective trotting action - the horses that don't have it don't compete, and tend not to get bred from.


Funny to see photos from various sources disappearing this morning. I wonder if a cloud-host is down, because it's more than one source, including from our own website, where the photos are displaying just fine.


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## Hondo

Ok, thanks. Genetic then like Foxtrotters.


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## Dragoon

Thanks, SueC for the discussion of trotters! Now I really want to ride one and zip along on a cloud...there is no bounce when up to speed? Just curious, as I thought of trotting as an up and down gait, and best ridden posting. Those jockeys were all sitting the speed trot...

Very curious about Penny...is Barn Girl going to be able to install some controls through arena exercises? She is a novice rider herself, no? How long do you think this will take, given the mare is older and has a more mature mind than a 3 year old? Will it take longer, since she has done what she wanted for so long? Just pondering on why we start horses at 3 ish...is it just economics of keeping a large expensive animal, or because its better to nab their minds when young and impressionistic...
Would Amore have been less spooky, bucky and bolty if she had been trained for riding at three instead of twelve....we'll never know...

Just another random question I've been wondering...do you think Hero will be able to keep up with Nala once he gets to gallop on the beach? As I understand it, Nala is larger, fitter, and unusually fast for a TB...I'm imagining a surprised look on her horsey face when she sees a horse stay with her finally, hahahaha...


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## Hondo

....and yet another random question. Are the French Trotters ok with the more rough and rocky surfaces or are they best kept to the smoother surfaces?


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## SueC

From the really limited sample size of n=1 pure French Trotter I rode, she had wonderful feet and never wore shoes when we had her, either in Europe or Australia. That's even when other horses did. She did lots of trails, in Europe on sandy, small gravelly and clay type footing, plus snow and pine needles and roadside to get to other tracks; in Australia she was on a big sandplain so that didn't count, noone needs shoes on sand. She wasn't ridden on any really rocky ground with sharp stuff sticking out of it though, like we have on the ridges in Redmond; on that stuff I'd always use hoof boots, unless I lived in a desert climate and my horses had tough mustang feet.

Her feet weren't small for her size, they were very round, elastic, tough and had really nice, big frogs. Some of the best frogs I've ever seen. I don't have great photos of this but here's one where you can sorta see her feet if you enlarge the photo, except the foot young me is mucking around with. (There's a problem with photos from various sites displaying on HF at the moment so this may not work till that is fixed, so I'll also include the URL for the photo off HF.)










http://www.coulstock.id.au/photos/SET01_Dame_du_Buisson_and_Mingo_at_Kargre_Stud_02.jpg

You can also get a little glance here:









http://www.coulstock.id.au/photos/SET01_Dame_du_Buisson_Mingo_Kargre_Jasman_Waroona_01.jpg

They were nice, short hooves with correct angles; good cushioned heels. I read a report that says that a lot of performance horses are now born with a propensity towards low heel/long toe, which can also of course be produced or exacerbated by incorrect feeding and under-exercising, and incorrect shoeing, not trimming and replacing often enough with horseshoes, or not trimming enough when horses aren't in terrain that wears their feet.

Both of the grandget we had here (we still have one of them, the other died in November) had/have excellent feet of that shape, with good frogs, but not quite as good as hers were - she had tougher feet. Sunsmart, the great-grandson, has pretty much his sire's feet (US STB); not bad feet though. He barefoots unless I'm in hoof boot territory.

Foot shape also a bit visible here:









http://www.coulstock.id.au/photos/SET01_Sue_jumping_Dame_du_Buisson.jpg


The two grandkids definitely had her genes. And I think these photos will actually display today, as they're Flickr hosted and I don't think Flickr photos have been affected (but the server for the photos above sits in Sydney).


French Trotter Crosses - Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr



Mirror Images - Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr


The right-hand side one, Chasseur, is still alive - the mare (Sunsmart's mum) died last year.

I've ridden really excellent pure (and old-style, with actual necks) STBs too with "wow" action, and with no less of a canter than any other horse I've ridden. And I'm sure there are excellent Morgans and Foxtrotters etc like that too, since they all came from similar lines, where the ability to really move over ground was bred for. My Arabian mare too, and look at @*phantomhorse13* 's which are from similar old lines.

The thing that was a bit different about the French Trotter was the hindquarter-dropping, going extremely base wide behind thing. The mare in the photos above did that too, inherited that FT trait.

I think all those sorts of working horse can do far better trots than the average riding horse nowadays. @*Fimargue* posted a great video here to show Arabians versus an actual dressage horse trotting in the paddock:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...rough-together-622121/page148/#post1970556013

PS post-edit: All photos displayed when originally posted. Just like yesterday! But in yesterday's posts, some of my photos from our own photo site (and others) disappeared, so I've posted the links in case it happens again.


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## SueC

Dragoon said:


> Thanks, SueC for the discussion of trotters! Now I really want to ride one and zip along on a cloud...there is no bounce when up to speed? Just curious, as I thought of trotting as an up and down gait, and best ridden posting. Those jockeys were all sitting the speed trot...



I've always posted it anyway, leaning slightly forward, but find it easy to ride. On Sunsmart, I don't do the slight forward lean because he doesn't drop his hindquarters like his mother and great-grandmother did. 

I've got a re-post here from my journal a while back where someone asked me that question:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


Styles for riding that fast trot vary, as you can see here:





 

Personally I always post at speed. I suppose in a race most prefer to lean forward like in TB races and just stand it out because it probably unbalances the horse less at speed and hence given them a competitive advantage.

Longer clip here, including preliminaries, which are quite interesting:





 

1994 World Record Under Saddle:





 This is an interesting one, run in time trial style, with a prompter driven in a sulky, galloping as prompters do! The woman riding on this occasion does so with a fairly normal stirrup length, in contrast to the races in the clips above. 


And I don't ride it like any of those guys do!


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## gottatrot

Very interesting thoughts about hind end engagement. 
I love a big trot - Gottatrot is not a misnomer.

This mare (sorry, put in a link since the pic isn't showing) is half Standardbred and half Connemara.
She has the most amazing trot.
















http://hoofforum.com/photos/var/resizes/Cassie_zpsdp6wiqrh.jpg?m=1499420117
http://hoofforum.com/photos/var/resizes/soccerinastoria2013%20148_zpsbbova3gl.jpg?m=1499420250
It is very fun to trot as fast as another horse is cantering. It would be so interesting to try a French Trotter. 
There's nothing like riding a horse with a massive extended trot. Often I can get into the rhythm very well in two point and it feels like I'm striding on top of the horse, into the stirrups. If you're off the rhythm, you have to post.


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## Fimargue

Dragoon said:


> Thanks, SueC for the discussion of trotters! Now I really want to ride one and zip along on a cloud...there is no bounce when up to speed? *Just curious, as I thought of trotting as an up and down gait, and best ridden posting*. Those jockeys were all sitting the speed trot...
> 
> 
> Just another random question I've been wondering...do you think Hero will be able to keep up with Nala once he gets to gallop on the beach? As I understand it, Nala is larger, fitter, and unusually fast for a TB...*I'm imagining a surprised look on her horsey face when she sees a horse stay with her finally, hahahaha...*


Trot is not an up and down gait, but diagonal. You can feel the hips going left right when you sit the trot on a horse that is working through the back.

I'm wondering if they're ever going to be able to stop them... I would not be up for that myself lol.

French Trotters in my experience have good hooves. But then again I haven't yet myself found a horse that can't handle variety of terrain when trimmed properly and not excessively.


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## phantomhorse13

Dragoon said:


> How long do you think this will take, given the mare is older and has a more mature mind than a 3 year old? Will it take longer, since she has done what she wanted for so long? Just pondering on why we start horses at 3 ish...is it just economics of keeping a large expensive animal, or because its better to nab their minds when young and impressionistic...
> Would Amore have been less spooky, bucky and bolty if she had been trained for riding at three instead of twelve....


In my experience, the mind of the individual has more to do with the ease or difficulty of training than the age (obviously assuming the trainer is competent). I have saddle trained several "old" horses (older than 16) and did not find them any more difficult than younger ones. In fact, I think in some cases their attention span is much better than a younger horse so they can progress in their training more rapidly.

I do think that, in general, a younger horse is not as aware of itself in terms of athletic potential, so if I had to buck out a horse, I would probably pick a younger one (unless the older one was obese!). So could be that some traditional training did take advantage of that. I also think finances are a big factor and the impatience of humans in general.


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## egrogan

We still have an annual Morgan trotting race here too- the "Morgan Mile" is both under saddle and under harness.






They don't call it a "road trot" for nothing! :wink:


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## bsms

Switched out of "Classic" view mode in hopes of posting - not the trot, just posting on HF! I prefer the look in classic mode but it is almost totally broken for me now.

Watching the trotting videos made me feel better about my own approach. I never trot long. That isn't an option given the sharp rocks and gullies and washes that crisscross and cover everything where I ride. I don't mind sitting a jog. The "Happy Feet" jog Mia used to do was very comfortable to sit. When I switched to a western saddle, she thought so too. The first ride, she did her light jog for a mile, which was unheard of, but that light jog wasn't any harder on her feet than a walk. I wish Bandit had a "Happy Feet Jog", but his background taught him trotting is meant to go fast.

It also taught him trotting is to be avoided. The up-down motion of a trot, done by guys weighing 220-270 sitting on his back, taught him trot = pain. He obviously found having them scoop in the seat at a canter less painful than pounding up and down at a trot, so he often shifts to canter early on. He also tends to explode into a canter, which makes sense if you need to get a very heavy weight to start moving into a scooping motion! 3 years later, he'll sometimes offer a prolonged fast trot, and he sometimes just slides into a canter. But...old habits die hard. I'm just glad he doesn't brace like he used to do!

BTW, I disagree with @Fimargue. A trot has a diagonal aspect, but their backs do go up-down while staying pretty level. More so with Bandit, who mostly trots with his feet underneath his centerline. He swings his feet out and around because he places his feet directly underneath him. It feels very up/down to me. On any horse I've ridden, the dominant feel of a trot is up/down. This is particularly true when trotting along a desert wash, since they have rocks to avoid! But the video I'll post further down shows Bandit's dominant motion.

And once a horse moves from a relaxed jog to a forward trot, I'd rather be emasculated than sit it. In fact, sitting it feels a lot like I'm being emasculated! But since I rarely deal with trotting for more than a minute at a stretch, posting is too much bother. Up/down, up/down...why not just STAY up. After all, I'm likely to be sitting again, at a walk or canter, within 200 yards tops!

The 1994 video in particular looks how I feel when we trot down a wash. Don't know if the picture will show, but I'll try to provide a link in case it does not:












https://imageshack.com/i/plP0T9kAj​ 
He seems to have a bit of "John Wayne" action going on:












https://imageshack.com/i/plTixrRRj​ 
At 35 seconds, when Bandit starts to trot, I'm not posting quickly. Just standing in the stirrups and trying to let my legs absorb the shock - so Bandit's back won't need to. Same at the 2 minute mark:






In a wash or along an ATV trail, my feet go further forward because I don't know if my horse will stop without asking or take a stumble on a rock. I'd rather be slightly behind my horse than have him put me in front of him...and I think Littauer would forgive me! Trotting in particular is a gait where I've ignored everything I've read and just tried to make my horse feel comfortable and at the same time stay ON my horse when things go wrong. I just was shocked that the people racing the trotters looked a lot like me. Maybe it's OK!


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## bsms

Probably ought to add that I so rarely am ON my horse's back during a trot that I'd be hard pressed to describe any fine details of how his back moves. Just finished a short ride in the arena. Goal? Get my legs & hips stretched out after yesterday's jogging. Bandit has no objections to being ridden 20-30 minutes just to get my tight muscles to relax. Particularly since he gets to nibble at dry grass a lot. This probably says something about our riding, though:

There was some tall, DRY grass on the edge of the arena. We stopped. Nom, nom, nom! He got a huge mouthful. I figured we'd stroll for a minute while he chewed this big wad of grass sticking out both sides of his face. But...Bandit offered a medium trot. He chose the speed, so I got to choose the direction. So for the next minute or two, he trotted around the arena, me standing in the stirrups, and while he trotted, he CHEWED. Nothing like having a horse chew a big wad, with a Billy Allen bit in his mouth, trotting efficiently while his rider stood in the stirrups and asked for direction changes! Bandit seemed utterly happy, though, zipping around with grass hanging out both sides of his face! So...happy horse, happy rider!


Just don't ask me any details about how he moved underneath me. No idea, other than he seemed happy.


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## SueC

@*gottatrot* , nice cross, isn't it funny how a lot of Connemara X are proper large horses? Where did you come across this one?

@*egrogan* , loved the photo and clip. Bet your horses have a decent trot at speed! Morgans featured in the development of the American STB in a similar way to French carriage / all-purpose horses featuring in the original development of the French trotter. The snobbery found in some catty horse circles, in Australia anyways, about STBs is completely unwarranted; a good horse is a good horse, and a good STB leaves a horse not bred to cover ground for dead in many pursuits, if trained and ridden properly - and is certainly more of an all-rounder than the average riding horse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dragoon* View Post 
Thanks, SueC for the discussion of trotters! Now I really want to ride one and zip along on a cloud...there is no bounce when up to speed? *Just curious, as I thought of trotting as an up and down gait, and best ridden posting*. Those jockeys were all sitting the speed trot...



Fimargue said:


> Trot is not an up and down gait, but diagonal. You can feel the hips going left right when you sit the trot on a horse that is working through the back.


I can see why @*Dragoon* is asking though. I've ridden some really juddery trots, on riding school horses with very straight shoulders and short pasterns. Rrrrrrrr, is the sound of your teeth rattling!  In horses capable of flying trots, the backs stay very steady, as could be seen in those mounted trotting race clips. For it to be otherwise would mean their gaits wouldn't be as biomechanically effective for forward motion. 




> I'm wondering if they're ever going to be able to stop them... I would not be up for that myself lol.


Eventually, they all run out of glycogen reserves! Then they'll slow down, if they haven't before. :rofl: The trick is to have them in safe territory where they can get a good run in that they find satisfying. :racing:


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## SueC

PS: Says something about the further development of the STB and Trotter breeds though that I looked at that Morgan road race and thought of it as comparatively sedate trotting still. STBs and Trotters really really stretch and fly. I think the surface here is restraining the horses a bit though, they do best on a firm but cushioned surface.

@*bsms* , try riding a race-speed _pace_ on a body pacer!  Your preferred position would probably be the most comfortable for that. Leg pacer versus body pacer: The leg pacer keeps his body quite steady, the body pacer swings the back when pacing - leans into the side-to-side motion. For anyone reading and not familiar with pacing, the pace is when the horse uses same-side leg pairs to run, instead of diagonal leg pairs as in trotting. It's interesting that body pacers tend to be faster sprinters than leg pacers. Julian is a body pacer:









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/horses/photos/img_3889.jpg

See how he's tilting to his left slightly here as his left leg pair is on the ground? He'll swing opposite when it's the other way around. It's very elastic. It's not juddery like a juddery trot on a straight-shouldered horse, it's more like a tiny touch of swaying trampoline to ride.

Chip here was totally ambidextrous - a natural pacer and a superb trotter as well. My father's most successful race horse, won over $50K back in the 90s, including a bunch of metro races. I cross-trained him in (short-course) endurance for fitness and variety.









http://photography.coulstock.id.au/gallery/horses/photos/img_9311.jpg

Like Julian, this one was relatively small, not quite 15hh. A total 4WD of a horse; as a good trotter or pacer has to be. This one had everything - walk, trot, pace, canter, gallop, all excellent, and by the way, the bit this one liked best and went in best both in harness and under saddle was a simple hollow light eggbutt snaffle. And he was always looking for contact with it, because a mouthy "trick" horse - he needed a running headcheck in harness because otherwise he would reach down in the middle of a warmup and out of sheer high spirits would try to grab his own breastplate, and of course he could have fallen over if he'd got his jaw caught in it!

When I rode him in his endurance comp, everyone thought he was an Arab X trained for the showring, when they saw him at the start point. Beautiful arched neck, engagement with the snaffle, floaty trot and canter, "look at me" demeanour. And then they got something of a surprise! :rofl:


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## bsms

Not long after we got Bandit, my daughter was riding behind us when she burst out laughing. "Bandit walks like a hooker in high heels!" Of course, Dad had to ask her how she KNEW what that looked like...but he does wiggle his butt and he keeps his feet almost on the centerline of his body. Quite useful when we pick our way between cactus. If a human can fit between them, he will.

As for why I say a trot is dominantly an up/down motion, watch the trotting in this video. Young horses, but those of us who want the horse to move as he naturally does, rather than try to refine his gaits, may ride this motion for our entire lives:






This video also shows the up/down motion.






Bandit has hauled really big guys for many miles in a sitting trot. He may never do it again... He is also almost freakishly narrow, and our trotting is often on uneven ground or in rock-filled sand. The terrain may impact how a horse trots, too. Don't know if the picture will show, but a horse built this slender carrying a 170+ lb man may do some compensating. I know he did when carrying guys over 250 lbs. I mean...imagine how it would look if I weighed an extra 80 lbs and was riding him. Poor horse!


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## gottatrot

Great video of the Morgan trotting races.

A lot of horses get smoother as they extend the trot, and some get a lot more lateral feeling. So far Hero is pretty bouncy/inefficient as he gets faster, and I think that is because his hind end is not that strong yet. He's been avoiding using his hind properly, because of the stifles I believe, so I expect he will get smoother eventually.

In the slow motion trotting videos, you can also see the lateral movement of the trot if you watch the rider's feet in the ridden one, and the cantle of the saddle in the unridden one. The rider's foot goes lower on the side that the horse is landing the front leg on. 

Something I've been pondering is what it will take for Hero to separate out his past issues from his learned responses. I think animals make associations that get tied together in their minds. When my dog used to bark in the house, I'd put his head under a blanket sometimes which would distract him and he'd stop. Now if he barks, he looks for a blanket and tries to get under it. He also hides under blankets if he gets nervous.

So I think Hero found out when his tendon got hung up it helped to buck or kick, but I also think the hanging up made him nervous, so now I think he feels bucking or kicking is a good response when he is nervous. If his tendon doesn't catch anymore, will he still kick and buck when he is nervous? Probably. So it might be hard for me to know when he actually does not have the issue, but is still doing the behavior.



Dragoon said:


> Very curious about Penny...is Barn Girl going to be able to install some controls through arena exercises? She is a novice rider herself, no? How long do you think this will take, given the mare is older and has a more mature mind than a 3 year old? Will it take longer, since she has done what she wanted for so long? Just pondering on why we start horses at 3 ish...is it just economics of keeping a large expensive animal, or because its better to nab their minds when young and impressionistic...
> Would Amore have been less spooky, bucky and bolty if she had been trained for riding at three instead of twelve....we'll never know...


Well, in my mind we're not going to teach Penny control in the arena, it will be more about teaching Barn Girl to get control at faster speeds. That she can, and how to do it. 

I agree with @phantomhorse13, I think the horse's temperament is the most important factor. Something I am keeping in mind is that Penny is calm, but she is half draft. Drafts in my experience don't have the most malleable minds, so it might take some doing to convince her to work with the rider more. I will have to find out exactly how old Penny is, but she's not very old. When she came to the barn she was 2, but I can't remember when that was - I think she might be 4 or 5 by now. 

But I'm going to have to be the one to convince Penny in the open that she does not have the upper hand. No matter what we practice in the arena, she thinks right now she can run off if she wants to. There is no chance she won't try it, but I am hoping I can figure out by riding her more and teaching her cues how I can flummox her. She doesn't strike me as a very creative thinker. 

But I don't underestimate the strength of a draft. We taught Bullwinkle the Percheron. He'd been ridden for years but only walking with tourists and following another horse's tail. He did not know how to turn or follow cues from a rider. At first he'd just plow off in some direction and go through bushes and whatever else was in the way. He was calm, sure. A calm, inexorable force. 



Dragoon said:


> Just another random question I've been wondering...do you think Hero will be able to keep up with Nala once he gets to gallop on the beach? As I understand it, Nala is larger, fitter, and unusually fast for a TB...I'm imagining a surprised look on her horsey face when she sees a horse stay with her finally, hahahaha...


I've wondered the same thing. We've clocked Nala at 47 mph, without competition using my GPS watch. 
Here's me, the nerd. I looked up Hero's race where he won 2nd place, and if I'm doing the math right, he finished the mile in about 73 seconds or 49 mph. 

The main issue right now is that neither Hero nor I trust his body. At least three times now when Nala started getting ahead of us, I've tried to see if I can get him to transition into a gallop, but all I get is a bigger canter. I'd like to get the feel for his lower level gallop before we do the ultimate test, which would be going around the mouth of the bay where Nala always gallops. 

If we go there, Nala will take off and my guess is Hero's insecurity about his legs would be overcome with the anxiety of being left, and he would try to catch her. Probably then he'd find he could gallop after all. But I'm not sure, because when Penny left us the other day he didn't try to pick up his pace, but instead just got anxious about being left. Instead of finding his gallop, he might just start a rodeo. I'd prefer to know what it was going to be beforehand if possible. 

But I'm guessing if I can rehab him properly, he will have speed like Nala. He can perform this very lifted and effortless canter in the field sometimes, similar to Nala. 

If you want to see the race, it's at this link:
Race Replays - Turf Paradise

Click on the tab for "Replays." On the calendar choose February 22, 2013. Race #4. His number is 3, "Radiant Rascal." The jockey is wearing a yellow/green shirt with a blue helmet. He comes up on the rail near the end of the race to place 2nd. 

I've learned that the locking stifles often show up when a horse has been very fit (like a racehorse) and then is put in a stall or taken completely out of work for awhile.

Our unofficial massage therapist came out last night and she said Hero's stifles felt smoother to her when we moved them, less sticking. She also found this muscle near Amore's shoulder and when she started working on it, Amore _stopped eating_ and stood with her eyes glazed over. She's pretty good about finding the bad spots on horses.


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## bsms

Horses are like onions. You peel a layer, and there is more. More to think about, more to explore. More options. When you ride the body, it is all about applying cues. Then the horse is supposed to obey the cues. When you ride the mind, you have to start with guessing about what is going on inside. Then test. Oops! Not that! Test again! Which key will unlock this layer? And when you find it, a new layer will present itself. New puzzle. But each little success builds trust and understanding, and then the horse can perform - get the answers right for that situation - with less internal tension.

Of course, you also need to be ABLE to ride the body enough first. Otherwise you are just standing on the ground, looking at a horse who never goes the places that will reveal his thoughts.

And meanwhile, the horse is exploring YOU.

I'll say this. Reading these journals, listening to people exploring options and learning...it's an education in itself! People with vastly more experience than me, exploring, and along the way showing others some of the routes that exist. Showing, even, that it is possible!


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## SueC

@Hondo, I was wondering if Hondo is your perambulator? ;-)

My husband, who has several dictionaries (including the Shorter Oxford, which is two massive tomes), Thesauruses and Brewer's dictionary of phrase and fable, pointed out that _perambulator_ has in modern times been contracted to _pram_, for one meaning of that word.

If Hondo is indeed your perambulator, this is perfectly fine. And after all, many people already know that Sunsmart thinks he is my wheelchair and that I have to get on him because I am so backwards in the running department (compared to his good self).


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> @Hondo, I was wondering if Hondo is your perambulator? ;-)


No, or at least I do not think of him in that way, although I have referred to him in the past as my non-surgical knee replacement, but no more as he has moved far beyond a simple knee replacement. More of a life replacement.

For perabulation, I think of this definition of perambulate: Walk or travel through or round a place or area, especially for pleasure and in a leisurely way.

That is the goal............


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## Knave

Oh, the quote! Lol. I was having to look up the word in the dictionary after @SueC wrote that thinking it was something random she came up with. Hahahahahaha


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## Dragoon

Thanks so much for posting the link to that race! 
It was an interesting one...
I did not know that kind of interference went on...that was a dirty move by the winning jockey! But I do agree it likely didn't change the end place finishes. 
But wow! Does it ever open up speculation about how being rammed like that might affect how Hero feels about running alongside other horses. You can clearly see him taken aback in the replay. 
Winning racehorses are not just the fastest but the mentally toughest too...

I watched 10 of my TB gal's 16 starts. (You have to subscribe. Its 8 bucks for 24 hours). She showed great promise. Won two and finished top three in the first 7 races. Then started losing big. Its hard to see but it does look like she didn't want the other horses near her. Wish the straight ahead view was available like in Hero's vid. 
This is consistent in what I see now. In the winter I will free lunge my group of four for some ice-free exercise. They spent last winter in one paddock. My gelding is boss. When the group is fed, let out through the gate to come in, or is running, he MUST be first. (He's sooo cute). The TB mare is second in all things EXCEPT for the running. She won't let a horse run behind her. She will bite and kick until they go ahead of her. (Bad trait for a racehorse, huh? lol) I have always wondered if something happened on the track to make this dominant mare want to be last. Hero's race makes me think so...

And thanks for the discussion of Hero's stifles. I have noticed the mare's tendency to buck when first picking up the canter. She is very consistent with it and I have long since decided she has a physical reason to do so. (But no, I do not know what that reason is.) She raced until 5, then literally rotted in a paddock for 4 years until I started working with her. Water and grass hay only. No shelter, exercise or handling. Feet rarely done. Had to be sedated to get near her. I have no idea what physical problems such wastage would cause. I do know she didn't have the energy to trot more than one lap of the arena...no wonder she was such an angel when I started to ride her. Now she has the strength to protest! (Boy does she let you know she hates riding!) Cutely, of course...good thing she's cute...
I am surrounded by people who are in the "its a bad horse! Show it who's boss!" camp. I am a beginner, but not blind. I've been watching the animals to see what they say since my first handful of lessons. They are teaching me how to teach them ! 
And posts like Gotta's help so much in peeling the onion!

And BTW, she talks loudly too! Big groans, sighs, rolls her eyes at me...she communicates her mind so clearly, I swear she's going to break out in English speech any minute! Maybe its a TB thing?

I love bsms' statement "...and meanwhile, the horse is exploring YOU!"
Happy trails all!


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## SueC

Knave said:


> Oh, the quote! Lol. I was having to look up the word in the dictionary after @*SueC* wrote that thinking it was something random she came up with. Hahahahahaha


Now would _I_ do something like _that_?









https://media.tenor.com/images/147d2fb22d842ccef408ff242ce85b55/tenor.gif

@*Dragoon* , when you were talking about 8 bucks for 24 hours, my first thought was that you were referring to a horse and its antics. Shows you how prior context in a thread can affect your initial reading of a sentence! :rofl:

@*Hondo* , love your clarification! :clap:


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## SueC

An update on current technical and photo problems, and how to fix them, here:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-for...post1970557743


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Speaking to Hero's race in 2013, it doesn't look as if TB racing has become that much more civilized than the chariot race.

I'm guessing the jockeys must get a big wad of money for winning?


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## gottatrot

@SueC, thanks for the tech info. Didn't want to hear that, since I had to take all my pics off Photobucket when that stopped working, and put them in a hosted gallery. Which I do not have an SSL certificate for. I can get one, but it looks like one of those annoying things where I'll have to go into the main database files and find the right one and change it. They always make it sound easy but it probably takes like four hours of mental anguish in reality.
@Dragoon, interesting thoughts about racing and how it affects track horses. They are so young and impressionable when they are racing too, so I could imagine them getting complexes about being in the front or rear of a running herd, or avoiding getting jostled. All kinds of things can happen out there at those speeds with such young horses. Your mare sounds like she is talented.

Many times it does amuse me that people gamble on these young horses. As a horse person, it just seems likely that any horse on any given day might just not feel like doing what everyone thinks they should do.



bsms said:


> Horses are like onions. You peel a layer, and there is more. More to think about, more to explore. More options. When you ride the body, it is all about applying cues. Then the horse is supposed to obey the cues. When you ride the mind, you have to start with guessing about what is going on inside. Then test. Oops! Not that! Test again! Which key will unlock this layer? And when you find it, a new layer will present itself. New puzzle. But each little success builds trust and understanding, and then the horse can perform - get the answers right for that situation - with less internal tension.
> 
> ...And meanwhile, the horse is exploring YOU...


Wow, that is exactly right. It's always a puzzle for me. I understand a little bit about having a system for training horses, but I also don't. It seems like it has to be so flexible, because you have to find out how this horse thinks, and what their motivations are. 

In my mind, with Hero I'm still getting past the nitty gritty stuff where he's still dealing with body issues and some of the things we face make him nervous. However, somehow he's already seeing our work as positive, because the past week or so when I call the horses he has started coming eagerly. Today Amore checked her watch and decided she didn't want to come in, and Nala wanted to come see me but thought Amore should come too so she ran out to Amore at the end of the field. But Hero came marching in to get caught. 

Halla was always conflicted, I know she liked the work but she had apparently had years of being difficult to catch, judging by the fact that she knew every trick when I got her from having treats tossed to watching for hidden halters and if you raised a rope she thought she was going to get lassoed and ran. It took me a lot of work to get her to where I could just walk out and catch her. 

I could see sometimes in her face that she wanted to come but one tiny part of her still wondered if getting caught was going to be negative. On a good day she'd walk a few steps in to get a carrot. On a rare occasion she'd remember her past, and sometimes she'd circle away. I found that if I got close enough, I could always back towards her, not looking, with a treat held behind my back. Once I touched her body, and put my arm around her neck, she'd relax. Whew, caught. The ordeal is over.

I do like training, but today wasn't terribly motivated. Tried to get Nala's rider to ride...too busy. Tried to get Brave and Cass' rider to ride...too busy. We have dates for Sunday and Monday. 

Decided that meant I should work with Penny. My plan was to take her with Hero out to the outdoor arena with one saddle, and take turns riding them around the field outside while the other could be loose in the arena.

The elk have some kind of ESP with me because they like to show up wherever I plan to ride. They were all laying down, spread out around almost the entire field, even behind the arena. I put Penny loose in the arena, and walked Hero around the small part of the field that wasn't claimed. There were a lot of wood chips, and when I got on he didn't want to stay in a trot, and I wasn't sure if it was due to the instability of the footing. So we just did a few circles and focused on following light cues. 

Normally I'm working more on the mental/training part of riding with a horse so new to me, but my focus has been more on the physical since I know we need to have his body working right as step one. Still, I realized it was good to have a short, positive session of riding for his mental development too. Lots of distractions out there and he was calm, no jigging, kicking or bucking. 

Usually I don't do stretching on a riding day, but since we had a mental day I did his stretches after the ride. This was the first day when I did the "tail pulls" (standing to one side facing his hindquarters, I hold his tail halfway down and lean my weight back, which makes him stand strongly on the leg closest to me) where I didn't pull him off balance. The first time we did it he couldn't even resist my pull and kept coming toward me when I pulled. 

After riding Hero, I put him in the arena loose and saddled Penny to ride her in the arena. The elk had gathered even closer so I didn't think we should try weaving through them. It was barely a fit with my wide saddle. She's easily 100+ lbs overweight. Her owner swears she is cutting back the feed. 

It turns out I was wrong about Penny. She is green, but responded very well to all my cues. The NH trainer who worked with her last year is a very good trainer (Charley Snell), so I did wonder about that. Her only problem I believe is that the two who have been riding her don't know how to ride. 

Barn Girl has explained to me that she has ridden quite a bit, but only been on well trained western horses where she sat back, ignored the horse and gave an occasional motion of the hand to neck rein or slow. Nala's rider's BF actually owned a horse but it sounds like the same situation. I've been on many group rides around the area, and there are a lot of well trained stock horses whose riders can barely ride, but they never spook, the riders sit back and the horses just take them around. All their lives the horses have known that riding is walking, sometimes a few feet of jogging, and rarely a minute or so of slow loping.

I'm not saying this is wrong, these people enjoy their horses and riding. Nothing against the style. It's how I learned to ride as a beginner too. But that's not going to work on Penny, for a couple more years. She's not ready for a passenger yet. So Barn Girl at least is going to have to learn to ride. 

With someone telling her what to do, Penny was ready to listen, although getting her into a working trot took some effort. She did, however, stay in her gaits with a nice rhythm. She just thought trotting should last about a half lap around the arena. I was laughing though, she was very smooth but it is funny having a big, fat horse under you, moving out and working, acting like it is such a chore. I have no qualms about taking her out in the world - I think she is like Amore, without other input she'll run back home. Why wouldn't she? 

I think I was wrong about her draft side being such an influence too. She's half QH, and her mind felt mellow and malleable to me. She just feels a little "dull," but that's not her fault. No hot halter Arab bloodlines in there.


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## phantomhorse13

Dragoon said:


> Thanks so much for posting the link to that race! It was an interesting one... I did not know that kind of interference went on...that was a dirty move by the winning jockey!


I don't think that bumping in the stretch was a calculated move by the winning jockey. You can see he switched whip hands as soon as the horse lugged in, attempting to straighten him out. Rather like the horse that shot sideways out of the starting gate, sometimes shiitake happens and its just considered a part of racing (though possible the stewards would require a new gate card for that one who was a problem breaking). As you said, it takes a mentally tough horse as well as a fast one to make a good racehorse.


I think that replay showed just how game Hero is. I am sure once @gottatrot has his stifle issue rehabbed, he will be up to the challenge of Nala!


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## gottatrot

Two good rides, one on Sunday, one Monday.

On Sunday I rode an hour and forty-five minutes with Brave and Cass' owner. For once, even though I headed out alone with Hero, we didn't run into any elk herds. 
He is making progress with going out at a decent pace without stalling too much, but since we had a time to meet I did lead him part of the way to make sure we met up as planned.

It was a slower ride, so it seemed fine for us to go longer/farther. We did make a couple mistakes. One was that I wanted to avoid going in the deep sand near the bay, but Cass' rider said she had a new trail we could use instead of going into the sand. Except once we hit the trail something was wrong for Hero; either because it was winding and rolling or the footing was loose, he began kicking a lot as soon as we started onto it.

The trail went for about a quarter mile, and Hero kicked out about 30 times or so. Cass' rider was behind us, ponying Brave, and she didn't realize I was getting up on two point for the kicks, so wondered how my back wasn't getting destroyed. It did make my legs a little sore though, because even though I'm off his back so the saddle doesn't throw me, there is still a powerful thrust forward that I have to catch in my thighs so I don't get off balance. 

Once we hit the hard sand again, Hero was fine. Interestingly, Cass' rider had used to have a Friesian stallion with locking stifles. She said he had a couple of estrogen shots and then for the rest of his life never had a problem again. She gave me the name of the specialist clinic that treated him, in Northern California so I could contact them and see if that was still recommended by them. 

The other mistake I made was riding a little too close to the other geldings. Something in the water made Hero shy sideways, and as he approached Cass he did one of his kicks out behind. Cass thought Hero was kicking at him, so kicked back and contacted Hero's chest with his rump. It was just a bump, but not a safe thing to play around with. I apologized. 

Hero was very brave about leaving his friends and heading off for home alone. You can see in the picture below how far away we were from the geldings when Cass' rider took our picture. 

Monday I went out with Nala's rider. We did an hour ride, at a faster pace. I wondered if Hero was sore, but he seemed fine, just a little low energy but Nala did too. The temperature was cool but it felt very humid. Something I noticed both days is that unlike with an arthritis issue, Hero starts out better and gets worse. Maybe once the quadriceps get fatigued, they allow the stifle to lock. But we picked up the canter successfully four times on the way out, and it felt great, and his trot very smooth. On the way home, Hero was only able to get the canter once out of five tries, and his trot was a little rougher. 

It's also interesting that if Hero doesn't get the canter on the first try, he won't. Many times on horses that crowhop into a canter or crossfire, you can sit and push them forward and eventually they'll get it figured out. I've done this often on green horses. With Hero, I can push him into a stride or two but he will always fall out of it if he didn't get it. I assume the only reason he doesn't get it is because his tendon caught, and once that has happened he just won't continue at the canter. 

Still, overall I thought things are getting smoother, and it seemed he tolerated a good deal of riding in two days. After our ride my friend came to do horse massages, and Hero's back was sore to deep palpation. I am guessing that was from all the kicking the day before. However, he didn't seem as sore when she worked on his quads and stifle area.
Today was a day off, and I pressed on his back but he didn't seem to have issues.


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## gottatrot

Had a good ride with Barn Girl on Saturday. We worked on having her be a proactive rider in the arena for a few minutes with Penny, and then I asked if she was ready to go outside of it. She said, "I'm not sure," which to me meant "Sure." OK, I was really bored in there and Hero was too.

So I took her out in the field, with many reassurances. We practiced having her trot facing away from home, and only walking when facing home. At the end I think she was feeling more confident, and it was good practice for Hero too.

Today Nala's rider and I planned to go out. Unfortunately, Hero got a chunk taken out of his cheek by Leo, and it seemed too sore when I cleaned it to be running around on the beach with. I talked to the barn owner and we switched Leo's night pen so he is not right next to Hero anymore. They just love to play fight, but Leo doesn't pull his punches. He doesn't get any marks, but Hero's head and neck are battered from fighting over the gate during the night. This one was a little too deep for my liking.

So I rode out on Penny. We weren't sure how busy the beach would be on the 3rd. There were tents, trucks and flying flags to the north and south, but there was a pretty long stretch right by our beach access without kites or anything too wild. We decided to use it as an enormous arena and go up and down the beach between congested areas. 

I'd only been on Penny a couple of times, but this ride I learned who she was. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly, but I feel the horse's mind or voice, whatever you want to call it. I'm so used to riding horses that communicate loudly. Penny is so quiet. She's like a whisper. 

Brave is a different kind of quiet. He always felt uncomfortable to me, because it was like he didn't converse with me but just took my input without saying anything back. I could never tell what he was thinking. I've ridden another horse like this, and they are difficult for me because I like feedback.

Penny is not like this. She talks, but it is with a very soft voice. Which means you can talk/cue very quietly to her. She was very easily reassured by my voice or cues, and she needed very little guidance. Basically, if I gave her parameters, it made her content. We trotted and she picked it up easily, and she worried at first with both trot and canter about if she should listen to me or watch Nala, but when I said, "I'm the one to follow," she immediately felt comforted and settled for me. 

Wow she was fat to straddle, but her gaits are butter smooth. Once or twice I wondered if we were trotting. Lovely transitions too. She's a big, sweet gem of a horse already at 4.

She didn't try to take off with me, because I was telling her when and where. But I made her tired with very little work because I was asking for focus and paying attention, and the sand was deep. Soon she was huffing so we stood and watched while Nala cantered around us. I realized that finally I was on a horse where I could pull out my phone without worrying about dropping it, so I took some video.

The girls looked beautiful, and I put it to some good 4th of July music.


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## SueC

I like what you said about horses' voices/minds, and hearing them, and dialoguing with them. I'm not sure how it works, but it does. You can use a telephone even if you don't know anything about electrical engineering. ;-)

It's probably body language type communication, subtle cues being read on both sides, but is can feel like telepathy sometimes. Sometimes you just think it and the horse gets it.

Lovely beach film. I like Penny's colour and it looks like she's going to be a very good horse when mature.


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## Hondo

I got an error on the video. Says video unavailable.

Edit: I clicked Watch on YouTube and it played.


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## SueC

Yep, there's a lot of that at present, and that's exactly how you get around it!


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## bsms

Hmmm...I had to click on the video, then immediately click YouTube before it disappeared into "video not available". Took me 4 tries to get YouTube clicked in time. It shouldn't surprise me after working a few years in what the military calls "operational testing", but I don't understand how software gets released without anyone checking to see if it works as well as what it is replacing, let alone better...:evil:


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, I love your observations about what your horses are saying and how they say it. I've been fascinated with animal communication since I was a kid. I was certain back then that I could understand what my horse was saying, and now that I'm older, I imagine I probably could and did. 

The horses who appear to communicate with me are not what I expected. And sometimes they say things I never expected. Chorro, my heart horse that I love so dearly and enjoy riding so very much, has never ever communicated with me, not once, although I have tried hundreds of times. 

On the other hand, our grumpy old man Tico, who really doesn't care much for humans, dislikes being petted or touched, communicates with me regularly. 

I've heard from Windy, my daughter's TWH, only a few times, and one of them was when I was brushing her. She said, "I don't like my color." She's white and all my other horses are brown. 

Isabeau, as you might expect from her journal, communicates all the time. "Nah, I'm not doing that. You can't make me. Awww, Mom, you tricked me. Get that saddle off me; I don't like it." She just keeps up a running stream of chatter and one reason why I let her keep that journal.

I really wish I could hear from Acicate, but he's an enigma and doesn't whisper a word.

Right now I am reading a book called Kindred Spirits, by a vet named Allen M. Schoen. It wasn't all that interesting, just stuff I already knew about acupuncture, massage, wholistic medicine, Chinese and Western herbs and how useful they are for animals. Then I got to the chapter about animal communication and I love that part.
@gottatrot, I am so impressed with your communication and wish we were dealing with the same animals so we could compare what we think we are getting from them. I've always been alone in my imaginings and wonder if I am out in left field.


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## gottatrot

Yes, we all know we communicate with our animals, but I think especially when you've been around them for years you stop thinking about how you actually do it. 

I was thinking this is what some horsemen call "feel," but it's more inclusive than that. It's more like using all your senses including your ears and eyes but also the feel of the horse's body under you, if it is tense or relaxed, and the feel of how they are responding to the cues. Even your nose sometimes can tell you the horse just broke out into a sudden sweat.

I wonder why it is that some horses don't seem to communicate with me as much, and I am guessing it is me that doesn't know their language. Someone else probably can understand it. Yet with Brave, for example, his owner tells me that she knows if this happens, he will react in such a way. But I haven't heard her describe how he feels.

If I signal Brave, he responds. But what I can't tell is how he feels about it. If I cue him softer or harder, or in a different way, he just responds or doesn't, but I don't know how he feels about it.

Halla told me hundreds of things on rides. She'd throw an ear back "did you realize you just caught me in the mouth when I tripped?" I would literally have to apologize for things, or acknowledge her thought or else she would let me know that I should, with a squeal or a tense muscle or a glaring eye. 
If I didn't cue hard enough, she'd say "Hmm, that's not going to convince me." If I cued too hard, she'd overreact and then I'd feel unhappiness in her body. 
From what I've experienced, this type of loud communication is common with hotter types.

But that doesn't mean the more mellow horses don't communicate well. Penny kept a dialogue going too. When I asked her to canter, but wasn't sure if she would try to turn off to the left or right like I'd seen her do with her beginner riders, I kept my reins to where I could catch her immediately. As she picked it up, I felt how she turned her head and felt the rein, and then how she relaxed into the parameters of "straight" and focused on running forward. To me that is a conversation. I'm asking something, the horse is telling me how they feel about it, if it's too much of a barrier, or not enough incentive; if what I am giving feels like support to them or restraint. 

It's like the horse is talking to you with their whole body. From the tips of their ears, the way they breathe, the posture of their head and neck, the tenseness of the movement, whether they begin to relax or get tighter under you, if they start to push powerfully forward and flow or get pent up, all of these things feel like a special language and conversation with the horse. 

What I don't know how to do is understand a horse that acts the same whether your reins are tight or loose, your balance is forward or back, the cues are harder or softer, the environment is scarier or quieter, and all they do is keep everything inside and then suddenly react on occasion.


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## SueC

I'm really appreciating these wonderful discussions, and what people are saying.


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## gottatrot

I was reading a thread "Fear of fatal injury." It brought to mind some of the thoughts I've had about horses and fear. Before I had this journal to purge my thoughts into, I had a blog that was useful for the same reason. I wrote a post about "Fear Itself."

A lot of it pertains more to working with difficult types, but I thought I'd share since this strategy helps me out very often.



> *
> Fear Itself
> Posted on September 4, 2014
> “The Only Thing We Have to Fear is Fear Itself.” (FDR)
> 
> Fear is normal. Fear is healthy. It is instinctive for us to fear a 1,000 lb. animal that can trample over and crush us to death.
> 
> Most fears are irrational. It is not irrational to have a healthy respect for horses, and it is quite rational to habitually take safety precautions that are widely accepted as “good practice” when working around horses.
> 
> However, it is quite common for people to allow fears relating to horses to get out of hand. There are many, many people out there who limit themselves from things they long to do simply because of the physical and emotional bondage of fear. Any person who decides to take on the task of working with a “square” horse must have a logical and fact-based approach to the horse and his behaviors rather than allowing himself to be deterred by irrational fears.
> 
> The difficulty lies in the fact that it is easy to believe the body’s response to fear rather than to think logically about whether the fear is rational or not. This is where our quote comes in. This is where the rational, determined horseman will not let simple fear or a physiological response be the deciding factor of whether he works with a horse or gives up.
> 
> In order to do this, a person must analyze himself honestly and openly. Some questions to ask:
> 
> Can I physically meet the challenge?
> 
> What part of my fear is rational and what part is irrational?
> 
> Am I thinking clearly or only responding to emotions?
> 
> In order to work with difficult horses, you must acknowledge and accept that there will be times when you are afraid. You must accept that although you will take every precaution to keep the horse and yourself safe, there will be times when you are in danger and there will be times you will get hurt. If you are smart and mitigate your risks, chances are you will never be seriously injured. But even if you are very intelligent and horse savvy, there is no chance you will never be injured at all and there is no chance you will never feel out of control or be fearful.
> 
> When I began working with my first atypical, reactive horse, I made a pact with myself that I would make my decisions logically and intelligently rather than based on emotion or fear. If I had followed my emotions, I would never have ridden my mare, Amore outside of a barn, never taken her to horse shows or the beach, and most definitely never ended up with my second horse, the firecracker named Valhalla. I would have missed out on a thousand priceless experiences, and I would have never discovered that galloping on a powerful horse down a lonely stretch of beach is something worth risking your life for. Fear is a powerful emotion, but there are others that far outweigh it such as the ecstasy and elation I felt when I heard the thunder of hoofbeats on the sand and felt that my horse must be outracing the wind itself.
> 
> Have you ever felt joy that could not be contained? Giving in to fear means that you risk giving up on far better things than you can imagine.
> 
> It can help to have some experiences to build on, and those can’t happen if fear prevents you from gaining those experiences. The first time I was bucked off Amore, I hit the ground very hard. I began having nightmares about getting bucked up into the high rafters of the riding arena and having no way to get back down. Fear told me things that were impossible. Logic made me acknowledge that the ceiling was far too high for me to reach, much less injure myself on. This taught me a lesson on how to separate what I am afraid will happen, and what is the worst thing that is likely to happen.
> 
> For instance, my horse takes off at a gallop and goes faster and faster. I feel a surge of fear. The next time I think about riding this horse, I feel reluctant. After all, the horse made me feel frightened the last time. What if this time I can’t stop him?
> 
> Now I rationalize: what is likely to happen? Does the trail have good footing? Yes. He is not going to slip and fall even if he goes very fast. How far is my horse likely to gallop even if he ignores my cues? With this horse, probably no more than a half mile. The trail goes up a hill for two miles, so there is plenty of room for him to get tired and stop. Does the horse steer well? Yes. Even if he goes out of control, I can direct him to a safe path. Am I likely to fall off? No, I never have randomly fallen off at a gallop. Now I decide what is the worst thing that is likely to happen. Probably the horse will spook to the side or stop from a dead gallop. What are the chances I will fall off if that happens? Probably 1 out of 10 times. If I do fall off, what are the chances I will be seriously hurt? Based on previous falls, I will be bruised and sore but probably won’t break a bone. I wear a helmet when I ride.
> 
> After all this rationalization, I usually feel that my fear is overblown and the risks exaggerated in my mind. Sometimes this doesn’t stop me from having butterflies in my stomach from anxiety when I get on the horse, but it also doesn’t stop me from taking the horse out and riding.
> 
> And therein lies the secret: All fears have a physical component that reinforce the mental component. Your thoughts and feelings of what might happen cause the chemical reaction in your body that taps into your “fight or flight” response. In order to remove the physical feelings of fear, you have to repeat the action that frightened you several times. Often for me it only takes one or two reenactments of the triggering event to completely remove the physical part of the fear reaction from my body. Sometimes that means the horse actually does something undesirable such as bucking or I fall off. But that is what is interesting about our bodies; they can even get used to something you perceive as “terrible” if you do it enough times. For instance, I used to get a huge adrenaline rush after falling off a horse. Most people do, it’s quite natural. After coming off several times in a row, I noticed that my body was no longer releasing all the chemicals and I was quite calmly surveying the ground, wincing before I hit and then getting up without being affected by all the jittery nonsense that comes from having our muscles pumped full of blood and endorphins.
> 
> Now, there is a warning that goes along with all of this. There is a flip side to exposing your body to fears and getting over them. You also need to use your logical brain to decide if things are safe to do with your horse when you stop getting the natural warning signals from your body that say, “Hold on a second, this might be stupid!” Adrenaline is there for a reason…it’s a natural safeguard to help protect us from danger. I’ve personally witnessed with people who ride atypical horses that they can become too desensitized to perceived danger and cross the line into actual danger without realizing it. Yes, I admit I’ve done this myself too. That’s why the safest bet is to always run things through your logical brain and analyze the perceived versus actual risks involved. The primary goal is to keep yourself safe and your horse safe, but without compromising the enjoyable time you can have with your equine partner in adventure.*


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## gottatrot

Another topic I wanted to think about out loud:

An interesting discussion on another thread about how much a horse should be ridden or worked when young, how much weight a horse should carry, and etc.

Don't we like to have rules for everything? Does life usually fit within rules? 

I've read all about the pros and cons of working horses young, not working horses young, how much weight they should carry, the ages that bones fuse. Still, it always seems to come down to the individual horse and rider. How can you make a blanket rule for something with so many variables? 

What are the most important variables? There are two: the horse, and the rider/handler. If the human is a horseman, it does not matter what he does with the horse, he will read the horse and not ask for too much, either physically or mentally. You simply cannot harm a creature with overwork if the animal is not worked until they are tired. You can't burn a horse out mentally if they are curious and interested. What I believe harms horses more than anything else is breeding for poor conformation, and poor environment. Some horses will need to be treated more carefully because of how they are built, regardless of age. 

But the horse is a variable too. A very slight and crookedly put together horse can't be pushed at any age or carry significant weight. Then there is the mental aspect. For example, Penny, the horse I am riding. She has just turned four. I've disagreed with people starting horses too young. But there can be another factor with some horses. Penny is the third horse I've known that basically needed to get some work because she had just too much energy. The barn owner was ready to evict Penny before she turned three because she was destroying everything. She was charging through gates, pulling down parts of the barn, breaking fences on a daily basis. Once she started being ridden, things got much better. She's quite mellow now.

All three horses I've known with good owners that started them young due to desperation because of too much energy, were the types that would never overwork themselves. Penny is in no danger of overtaxing herself on a ride. She would enforce a rest break if she got tired. When I was riding her the other day, Nala's rider and I were talking about working a four year old. We were laughing because Penny probably weighs 1500 lbs and I weigh 125. The saddle only weighs about ten pounds. Her legs are like tree trunks with giant hooves. Her spine is buried in blubber. Am I going to cause her back or leg problems? My conscience is clear, and I am someone who worries about horses. Probably carrying the extra weight from overfeeding and not enough exercise will harm her more than carrying a rider.

Bibi was another horse I rode young. She was small, 13.2 hands but so well balanced. We started ponying her at 2, riding her at 3, and again, she was too energetic and too fat and needed exercise. She also had the mentality where she would never overwork herself. But she had thick legs, big, strong hooves, and was extremely well balanced. I saw her leap in the air and spin a 360 once, completely elevated off the ground. She would do a floating trot in place, just for fun in the field. Unworked, she was trouble all the time. Worked, she was a much better pony. We did not worry about her carrying weight or anything else because she was stocky and strong.


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## Hondo

Yet two more super posts!

The first detailed much of my early experience on Hondo. For a long time, each time I mounted I wondered, will I get back ok? Will I experience another bad get-off? Each time I concluded that if I paid close attention to myself and my horse, I'd probably, maybe, be ok. Looking back, it's now been a long time since I have experienced that emotion when mounting.

On the second, I guess it would be like setting a standard for how much weight a human should carry. And how much and when they should exercise. Considering the wide range of variabilities in human body sizes and types along with mental construction and capbilities, it would make no sense to make rules about one size fits all in humans.

So when it's recognized that horses have the same wide range of variabilities, then the proper thoughts and considerations fall into place for horses too.


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## SueC

Now why can't _everyone_ be this sensible? Why are there so many silly discussions which are just sound and fury and hot air and no substance?

/end rant! ;-)


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## bsms

I'll read the fear post later. Skimmed enough to know I want to read and think about it. Fear has been an issue for me & riding. So I want to read and think.

Horses, starting age and how much weight: I agree. I don't get much riding done during winter. The weather is good but I often don't have time during daylight. So each spring, we start small and work up. I also have the slenderest horse I've ever met. One who probably has had damage to his legs. So...I let him tell me when he's had enough. That might be 30 minutes in April. 90 minutes in June. It may have nothing to do with my weight. Dehydration and the sun beating down can turn me into a noodle when I run - so why couldn't it do the same to Bandit?

If Bandit did this when I mount up, I'd have a problem:








​ 
IIRC, he was looking at a neighbor on a skateboard. But I've seen horses adopt that posture when a rider gets on. When that happens, dismount! It could be the saddle. It could be your weight. I've had it happen mounting Bandit and Mia. If they roll in the corral and twist the wrong way, their back will be sore. I've mounted up, ridden 100 feet and called it quits for a few days! Nothing to do with his age, size, background. He needed a month off after hurting his foot in December.

I figure a horse who is having fun isn't likely to be in excessive pain. I also think every rider needs to be aware of when their horse is enjoying himself, and when he's not. As riders, we OUGHT to know when a horse is acting uncomfortable. If we cannot, I guess we need lessons. Not in "position", but in "reading your horse".

PS: With Bandit, the first sign he's getting tired is he stretches his head down, but not to grab a bite. Just like me stretching my back when tired. If I ask for a trot then, he'll offer a little jog and be looking for an excuse to quit. That doesn't mean, to me, that I've "asked", "told", and now need to DEMAND! It means it is time to get my butt off my horse's back, loosen the cinch, walk beside him and let him relax for 10 minutes. Or maybe all the way home. As a jogger, I've sometimes walked the last mile home because I'm POOPED!

The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you! Applies to horses, dogs, cats and others. Even humans...


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## Knave

@bsms I agree with what you are saying! I also agree with @gottatrot’s theory about age. We start horses young, but I’ve never seen one hurt because of age as they aren’t pushed until they are old enough to be.

Reading when a horse is tired I learned the hard way. It wasn’t something I knew because I guess I’d never pushed one too hard until I did. I was riding a mare for someone called The Dun Mare. I don’t know if she was ever given a name. I had been riding her for probably six months or so. She was a particularly nice mare; she was four and built just beautifully. She was kind and willing and never argumentative.

One day I was working for her owner and nothing was going right. The cows were spoiled and knew how to split a rider to get them outran. The mare and I pushed on and on, and we went over many canyons trying to outrun those wild cows. I didn’t know what to do. I was all alone and I’d been raised to do a better job than lose a cow. I’d never even heard of someone not accomplishing their job.

By the end of that day we did not get our job done. I had cried and finally come to accept reality. I was surprised to find that no one riding had. It was a mess. The poor mare wouldn’t lift her head, she was so tired and stumbling along. I was lucky I did not pull her plug or kill her. After that day if she thought she was going to be pushed too hard she would buck. That made her unusable for her owner and she was sold on. The person who bought her I knew, and I watched as she lived a good life there. 

The bad work ethic I had taught her never changed though. She is 19 or so now, and she will buck occasionally still to get out of work. She has become a terrible cheat as well. Ruining such a wonderful mare is something I was very ashamed of. The owner didn’t hold it against me (he made a lot of money on the mare), but my personal love of horses definitely made me acknowledge what I did. 

I have always paid attention to my horse since then. Little Bones is like the Dun Mare in that he is such an ambitious horse he would never consider quitting me on what I asked and would be broken if I got to that point. So I limit myself with him. With other horses if they feel tired I too will get off and walk.


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## Hondo

The only times I can truly recognize that Hondo is enjoying himself is when I'm scratching him in one of his favorite spots or he is eating something he doesn't get often and really likes. Sometimes he does also seem to enjoy bossing cows under certain circumstances.

But I never have the feeling that he says, "O'boy, he's riding me. This is really fun." But I do feel he is quite willing and happy to accommodate my wishes although they may not really be his own.

And I'm ok with that. We both give and take.

And before I leave I've gotta mention the thrill seekers addiction to fear. Been there done that. May still be there some.

Quote: "But experts believe that it's not uncommon for individuals to push the envelope, seeing how much fear they can tolerate, and ultimately feeling a sense of satisfaction when they're able to endure the anxiety."

Unquote

No duh!


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## bsms

Bandit feels good about himself leading other horses thru the desert. Not sure he enjoys riding by itself, but he seems to feel needed and appreciated - by the other horses - when 2 or 3 of us go out.

When we ride alone, he sees little value in it. He's OK, but it isn't a thrill. However, his trots are often done with lots of energy, and he seems to find some pleasure in the use of his body during a canter.

Trooper? If Bandit would just stay in the corral with him, I think Trooper would be content to spend the rest of his life there. But even so...there is 'willing' and 'reluctant'. If my horse has no enthusiasm, no self-generated oomph, then I worry. Mainly because I've ridden two horse with ample "oomph". I'm content with "willing", though. As long as it doesn't degrade into reluctant!


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## Hondo

The few times I have ridden Hondo with others, besides on roundups, he has seemed more energetic, even when ponying or packing Rimmey. Don't know if it is nervousness or enjoyment.

When I first began testing Rimmey on ponying and packing around the 60 acre field, Hondo was forward and a bit prancey. But after a few days of that he did begin to settle into our normal "perambulation". When out of the field on a ride packing or ponying he didn't stop as often if at all asking to graze.....at first. As time went on, he went back to the normal routine again.

Funny, Rimmey would look at Hondo then at me as if to say, "You let him stop and eat?". After many days Rimmey cautiously began to nibble a bit also.

So anyhow, with Hondo, it seemed to be the excitement or whatever of someone else on board.

But your horses go out together often enough that my situation may not apply at all.

When leading 8 or 10 strange horses with riders Hondo can become very prancey but after a couple of hours or so will settle...somewhat. But never as we are on a normal solo trail ride by ourselves.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you! Applies to horses, dogs, cats and others. Even humans...


:iagree:

Even humans? :rofl:


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## gottatrot

@Knave, thanks for sharing the cautionary tale about overworking a horse. I've known another horse that was killed because of being pushed too hard. After sitting in a stall for months, he was brought out and ridden for hours, and when he finally refused to go forward was whipped. At that point, he flipped over backward, seriously injuring the rider. The rider sent someone from his hospital bed to go and shoot the horse.

I learn a lot from stories like these. It's not only bad for the horse, it can be dangerous for the rider.

I've been a bit sidelined due to Hero's face gouge being deeper than it first appeared. I was a bit worried about it one night at work, after looking at it and seeing a lot of "biofilm" or "slough" on top and reading about how that is bad for wound healing. That was while rushing on my way to work, so I didn't have time to clean it well or really inspect it. 

I'd not had a vet out to see it, thinking it was superficial, but it kept draining for days. In the morning after work, I headed out with supplies and after hosing it down really well, the slough all came off and there was a nice, pink wound bed underneath. It is healing fine, although still deep, but Hero has been a bit grouchy, understandably.

He also has been a little unhappy about moving two pens over so Buddy is between himself and Leo at night. The first couple of nights it looked like he stared over toward Leo and dug a trench in the sand, apparently saying, "Come a little closer, so we can play/fight!" The trench was very shallow this morning so I think he is adapting.

I just read a great dog book called "Finding Gobi," about an ultrarunner who gets adopted by a little dog while running across the Gobi desert in China. The dog looks into his eyes, and then just decides this is his person, and just keeps running after him for endless miles. No unhappy endings.

Had a super busy day with my 12 year old twin nieces and 9 year old nephew visiting from the city. Even though Hero was a little grouchy I didn't think it would hurt him to have the kids led around in circles. Their mom has tall genes and their dad (my brother) is the only tall one in our family at 6'1" so the shorter twin is an inch taller than me already, and the taller one is three inches taller. Good thing I have a bigger horse now.
He was a little grumpy but complied.

I'm testing to see if the SSL certificate I got for my photo storage will work and post pictures into my posts again.









One twin kept taking cute selfies of herself, with Max the lab and Penny.
















It was a little embarrassing today because I've been handling Penny a bit, and when Penny's owner was out doing barn chores she noticed that when I called my horses, Penny whinnied and came running up. 

My mom and sister are full of energy so had a whirlwind day planned with the kids with everything from arcade, ice cream, bumper cars, parks, fireworks, toy stores, etc. But the funny thing was when we went to the beach, they planted some seashells for the kids to find and didn't tell me. So my sister said, "Why don't we look for some shells, maybe here along the tideline?" 

There were lots of people and the water was far away, so I didn't think we'd find intact shells. Boy was I amazed when we started finding fancy shells, a whole sand dollar, even agates! I could not understand why my mom and sister were not excited about it. My sister finally told me, but I'd been telling the kids about how this was the strangest tide I'd ever seen to bring in such a variety. I'm very gullible.

I've decided I'm as far as I can get with Hero's rehab on my own, so am having the vet out next week to evaluate his stifles and see what more we can do for him.


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## Hondo

I don't know if you've tried Vetericyn but I've had fantastic results using it. I like the gel variety best but it must be shaken vigorously before each use or it get's thick in the bottom and stops up.

I think it's the only product that disinfects without any harm to granulation cells.


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## SueC

An IT question for you, @gottatrot - did getting the SSL certificate just solve the problem from here on, or also retrieve any "disappeared" photos from that recent security change on HF? Brett was saying it might still reference to the old http photo addresses with the old posts, rather than "translate" the old http photo addresses to https addresses. Now that's a question you would know the answer to!


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## Knave

You’re welcome @gottatrot. It’s not something I’m proud of, but it is an important thing that I learned. I have known a horse I really liked after that who was ridden to death working one day. The man on him couldn’t read it and kept pushing when work was hard. The horse tried for him and then lay down dead. I am grateful that I learned my own lesson in an easier way, although I pray I would never have killed a horse. That was a very nice horse. The horse in your story was smarter, but it didn’t work out for him either. They are very sad stories.

I am glad Hero’s wound is healing! I also use Vetercyn, but I read it is really just a bleach solution. It works though in any case.

It sounds like you had a wonderful time with your family! I love the hidden shells. Lol


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## bsms

Bandit is still on rest, too. I had iron shoes put on his front yesterday. His soles are thin and the corral ground rocky and hard. Iron shoes protect him 24/7. Last time we tried it was a year ago, and his feet recovered a lot in just 6 weeks. Hopefully he can go back to barefoot after that. 

He re-scrapped his knees yesterday morning. It forces me to look at how his knees are bigger and knobbier than Trooper's. If he stays sound, it will be because he's got light riding duties from here on out. I just hope whatever happened inside when he was racing with big guys riding him won't get worse.

He behaved flawlessly while shoeing, even with open sores on his knees. It grieves me to know we take trusting souls like that and so often turn them into angry, defensive or worried horses! He obviously doesn't enjoy moving right now. Don't see anything major wrong, just missing some skin. There is an area in the corral good for rolling. Trooper uses it. Bandit? He seems content to roll on rocks and pay the price.

Might try some Vetericyn, @Hondo. Been using Red Kote. It is our standby for cuts, bites and scrapes. The missing skin on one knee is bigger than normal. He might need some extra help.

Good to hear Hero is getting better. Sounds like Bandit...a bit grouchy. Missing some "joie de vrie". It wouldn't bother me to ask Bandit to carry someone around a little at a walk, and I think he'd do so if asked. But we got rain for the second time in 5 months, so he and Trooper are standing in the shelter. Were doing some mutual grooming last time I looked. May go get some Vetericyn. Oddly enough, even Trooper is starting to warm up a little to me. Maybe he's decided if Bandit likes me, then I cannot be total evil. Or maybe age and a DECADE has convinced him it is time to give me a chance! Hope those who CAN ride are getting some good ones in!


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> I also use Vetercyn, but I read it is really just a bleach solution. It works though in any case.
> 
> l


That story is around but not so. Vetericyn is the same as hydrogenated water which has been around for a long time for wound cleansing. Hydrogenated water however, requires a constant re-supply of hydrogen ions and specialized equipment.

Vetericyn has developed some method to more or less stabilize hydrogenated water.

I get these painful cracks in the ends of my fingers in the winter. I have used Vetericyn on them with amazing results. But to get the best results requires holding the crack painfully wide open and working the Vetericyn down to the bottom. When done properly, I've had the cracks mostly healed in two days time.

This has led me to ponder if delays in healing is simply low grade deep infection that interferes with the growth and development of granulation tissue. In the same way that thrush treatment has to reach the bottom bottom to be fully effective.

There was a dog on the ranch that split the side of my little finger open. The place where I went irrigated it with hydrogenated water before stitching it up. (about 10 stitches)


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## Knave

That is good to know @Hondo! Also a good idea about the cracks. I get them in my feet pretty bad and my husband gets them on his fingers.


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## SueC

About those skin cracks... I have this congenital disposition to heel cracks and it got worse with age. I buffed and used heel balms containing urea etc designed specifically to stop the cracking, with only moderate success. I also get cracked skin on the thumb sides of the index and middle fingers, no matter how much moisturiser etc. Gloves are really useful for outdoors (and washing-up gloves for dishes and laundry) but I do like to get my fingers dirty and can't always wear them. I use Dove hypo-allergenic soap as it causes the least skin irritation in me when washing dirt off my hands; normal soaps are too harsh - I'm pretty sensitive to chemicals and easily get rashes and inflammation as a result etc and normal soap just kills my hands.

But I tried something different a couple of months ago on top of all this. I used a Japanese foot-peel called BabyFoot and it took off all the dead skin on my feet within a week of treatment. (It's like having shedding snakeskins, so wear socks ;-)) The healthy skin underneath was not affected and I did not have adverse reactions to the peel. But it got rid of my cracked heels, and all sorts of calluses. It basically re-booted my feet. As they were peeling I even found glass splinters that had been embedded in my feet at least a year before when we last accidentally dropped a glass - they had gone in at a shallow angle so didn't puncture live tissue but stayed in my "hooves".

Sorry if anyone here is having breakfast...

But, since that I've been able to maintain normal feet with the measures that didn't work properly before. And I also used the stuff on my cracked finger surfaces and it got rid of that too. Cracking becomes a mechanical problem that self-perpetuates when it gets to a certain point. My heels would sometimes bleed from the cracking. It's nice to have gotten rid of the problem. If my skin overly thickens again, I'll be peeling my feet, and cracked finger areas, again.


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## Hondo

And for any skeptics out there.............

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25785777


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> An IT question for you, @gottatrot - did getting the SSL certificate just solve the problem from here on, or also retrieve any "disappeared" photos from that recent security change on HF? Brett was saying it might still reference to the old http photo addresses with the old posts, rather than "translate" the old http photo addresses to https addresses. Now that's a question you would know the answer to!


I hadn't wondered yet about this...great question. I'd only been using the attachment feature to put photos in my posts, knowing they wouldn't show up otherwise. But I'd been having issues with seeing pictures in everyone else's threads, such as yours. That part I thought was due to my Chrome browser. The strange thing is, now that I have the SSL certificate on my own pictures, I can see everyone else's too. Not quite sure how that works...
@Hondo, thanks for the info on the Vetericyn. I looked at the study you posted and found several others that also agreed Hypochlorous Acid cleanses wounds while not disrupting new epithelial growth. Which is great, because iodine, hydrogen peroxide and other cleansers do, so I never use them after the initial deep clean when I first find a wound. It's always ingrained in my memory, a wound I saw that was treated by an old school doctor with iodine. The wound went through the outer leg tissue, and had healed completely as an open hole, and you could see this guy's leg muscle sliding around underneath. The iodine had kept the wound from filling in, until it finally healed that way. 

I'd heard Vetericyn was great, but never heard the science behind it so mainly just have done what we do for patients, which is keep wounds clean with saline. Debride when necessary. Tonight all I could see in Hero's cheek was pink and red capillary bed. So I think if I just keep rinsing it with saline it will soon scab over. I'm going to get some Vetericyn to have on hand.


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## Hondo

I need to mention there is another product, Puracyn, that is also a water solution of hypoclorous acid, same as Vetericyn, that is sold for use on humans. But for me, if it's good enough for Hondo, it's good enough for me


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## Hondo

There is another product that has passed FDA for human use called Puracyn. Same thing. I use Vetericyn.

BTW, on overworking horses, I had a dread fear of pushing Hondo too hard going up long steep hills and is the reason I bought a heart rate monitor for him. Turns out there is no need. He will readily say, "Hey let's stop for a minute and let me catch my breath and rest a minute". But I didn't know that at the time and wanted to be certain.

Edit: Grrrr... the above post would not display until I posted this one.


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## Knave

Lol. The majority of our healthcare comes from the vet box.


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## egrogan

Another +1 for Vetericyn. I have used that stuff on all my animals, with the most positive effects on chickens. When they scratch around in thorny underbrush, like mine do, they are prone to getting nasty foot abscesses (weirdly named "bumblefoot") which require some minor home surgery to clean out. Nothing helps them heal faster than the Vetericyn- so much so there have been less difficult abscesses that I was able to clear up with faithful spraying of the Vetericyn vs. opening them up and digging the gunk out (any opportunity to avoid vet wrapping a chicken's foot for weeks is a victory in my book!).


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## Knave

Bones doesn’t slow down. He just doesn’t. Logically at times it has been an extremely hard day. The other horses are drenched in sweat and slowed way down asking for breaks, and then there is Bones. Like a border collie dog he is looking for more cows and constantly breaking into a trot across the canyons to go get them. He doesn’t sweat or have any recognition of the work he’s done. I have to slow him down, which irritates him to no end. 

I am hoping age gives him the knowledge to protect himself.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> Lol. The majority of our healthcare comes from the vet box.



And it's probably more effective that way too!


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## gottatrot

Several days ago, Hero's cheek sore scabbed over completely, so I don't need to treat it anymore. It was amazing, as soon as it scabbed over it began filling in and tightening up very rapidly.

Now that he and Leo are separated, they have decided they want to battle badly. I had Hero in his paddock, and neglected to block off the adjacent field where Leo and Buddy are, thinking it would be fine since they were far out in the field. Going over to see Amore, I heard a loud banging and came back to see Leo and Hero rearing at each other over the gate and playing "wild stallion." Now we can't leave those two where they can reach each other for even five minutes, or else they will start up their games. Silly boys. If Leo didn't actually take chunks out of Hero I'd let them have their fun.

I'd read that if a horse has locking stifles, the worst thing you can do is rest them. So even with the face scab I decided to ride Hero yesterday.

Ugh, they were right. After two weeks off, his problem was so much worse. I was trying to be nice and show our new boarder, who has a lovely Palomino QH named Buddy (2nd Buddy we have now) all the trails around the property, and how to get to the beach. She was worried her horse would be nervous on his first time around a new place. Yeah. Buddy the QH opened his eyes a little wider as we went along, and his nostrils opened up. That was the extent of his outward excitement over a new place. That included going down to the beach and weaving among the tents and traffic down there.

Meanwhile, Hero got stuck numerous times and pawed, bucked and kicked out. We only walked (Buddy's rider wanted to take it gentle the first time), but even the tiniest hills and smallest changes in footing were hanging him up. When we finally made it all the way around the property and to the beach, he was able to walk fine on the hard sand. When we went up the dune off the beach, he bucked so high and hard I was flying above the saddle several times. Lucky for me he maintains straight lines, unlike those twisty little Arabs. So I kept landing squarely centered. 

After that I could not get him to settle, he just kept stopping and pawing, until finally I just had to get off and lead. He was chomping and sweating and there was red inside his nostrils, poor boy. 

What a good impression to make on a new riding friend and her Buddy. Yikes.

The vet is coming Wednesday and I really hope she can help us. I feel that this is not something a horse should have to deal with, if it can be helped. It is very upsetting. They say it is not painful, but I have to wonder. It bothers Hero so much.


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## Hondo

Hoping the vet has a plan that will deal with the problem successfully. Poor horse. In some hands, he'd be punished unmercifully for being so disrespectful.


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## bsms

I've been trying Vetericyn on Bandit's knees. After a few days, I've gone back to Red Kote. Maybe it is the vertical surface, but the Vetericyn gel doesn't stay on and the flies get into it. The Red Kote seems to promote healing but it sticks better and seems to deter flies.

Hate hearing what Hero is going thru. Bandit has big front knees, noticeably larger than Trooper's. Apart from that, Trooper and Bandit have almost identical bodies. Bandit doesn't seem to worry about his knees, but I get nervous every time I hear of a horse with joint pain. Hope the vet can figure out something for Hero.


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## knightrider

> Hope the vet can figure out something for Hero


Me too!!!


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## knightrider

> Hope the vet can figure out something for Hero


Me too!!!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> I've been trying Vetericyn on Bandit's knees. After a few days, I've gone back to Red Kote. Maybe it is the vertical surface, but the Vetericyn gel doesn't stay on and the flies get into it.


Did you get the liquid Vetericyn or the gel? The liquid definitely does run off the surface easily. I use it mostly only for the eyes.

The gel stays on very very well and is what I use for everything else, particularly my own split fingers.

The gel MUST be shaken very well prior to each application and must never freeze.

That said, Vetericyn is a disinfectant only and has no fly repellent properties at all. When concerned about flies, I will apply a coat of Cut N Heal over the top.

Again, Vetericyn is the ONLY disinfectant that does not damage developing tissue. I try to keep Cut N Heal out of the wound itself, as it has Tea Tree oil which also damages healing tissues.

Reading up on Red Kote as I've never heard of it. Valley Vet does not carry it.

ngredients: Red-Kote® contains Phenol, Biebrich Scarlet Red, Isopropyl Alcohol 4.2% by volume. In a soothing, softening vegetable oil base. Indications: Red-Kote® is an antiseptic red oil wound dressing for slow healing wounds. Non-drying, soothes, softens.

The net seems to turn up Biebrich Scarlet Red as a dye only. So that would leave Phenol and Isopropyl alchohol.

What is phenol and what is it used for?
Phenols are widely used in household products and as intermediates for industrial synthesis. For example, phenol itself is used (in low concentrations) as a disinfectant in household cleaners and in mouthwash. Phenol may have been the first surgical antiseptic.

But if it works for you, it works for you.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...But if it works for you, it works for you.


It does, which is why I mentioned it. When Bandit was kicked in the knee and had a 4-5 inch long gash, my wife used the human version of Vetericyn and bandaged the wound. We kept it wrapped for about a week. Once it was open, we used a mix of the Vetericyn-like stuff to clean and the Red Kote to cover. Bites and open wounds we don't cover mostly get Red Kote alone.

About 40 years ago, when I had a part-time job dealing with sheep owned by a biochemical company, we used a Purina product that was simply called "Wound Spray". Don't know what was in it, but we could use it on open cuts exposed to the manure & **** in the pens...and they'd heal! It was purple. Can't find it now. Probably had some ingredient that is no longer legal for any animal. I used it on my own foot a couple of times back then and liked the results. If they still made it, I'd buy it. Those pens were FILTHY. Disgusting. And every wound we used it on healed nicely!

The Red Kote DOES make it look like the wound is bleeding. Stains clothes, too! I've used it in a desert environment. Not sure if that matters. But it probably will remain my standby. My wife recommends I use Vetericyn for cleaning and disinfectant, then Red Kote. That is what I'm doing currently. Clean, then Kote. Morning and evening. It would help if the boy would stop rolling, or getting on his knees while getting up. 

We talk about horses being sensitive enough to feel a fly. That is true. But when he feels like it, Bandit will roll and then get up using his knees even while they have raw holes in them! He acts as if his knees, even now, are invincible and they clearly are not! Not sure that boy is all there in the head. My daughter says he takes after his owner...:shrug:...doesn't have the sense God gives a goose.


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## Hondo

Quote: VETERICYN PLUS® WOUND & SKIN CARE SPRAY (ALL ANIMAL)

Directions for Use: Move excess hair from wound area. Clip if necessary. Adjust spray nozzle and saturate the affected area, flushing away any foreign debris. If dressing is required, saturate dressing with Vetericyn Plus® Wound & Skin Care or Antimicrobial Hydrogel at each dressing change. Repeat 3-4 times per day or as necessary. Faster healing is achieved when wounds are cleaned and maintained moist. No rinsing necessary. Safe for use around mouth, nose, ears, and eyes. For best results, use in conjunction with Vetericyn Plus® Antimicrobial Hydrogel for proper protection and moisture balance during healing stages. Unquote.

It is likely the vegetable oil that keeps the flies off. I used olive oil on Hondo's mane to keep the gnats off. Worked but it caused him to sunburn.

Here's the ingredients of Cut Heal that everyone around here uses and swears by. I still have it and will use it for flies but I'm sold on Vetericyn. I've talked to three vets and they all swear by it. And all recommend applications of 2-3 times daily.

Cut Heal: Crude Fish Oil, Raw Linseed Oil, Tea Tree Oil and Balsam of Fir


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## gottatrot

Thanks to all for the well wishes for Hero.

The vet came to see him today. She found him difficult to diagnose, but eventually agreed that she thinks his problem is intermittent upward fixation of the patella. Basically, the tendon is catching on the bone where the leg normally would lock. 

The good news is that she didn't think xrays were even necessary, because she could feel the tendon popping over the bone when he moved the stifle/knee. But also she could feel no fluid or abnormal bony changes, etc, so at his age she doesn't feel he has arthritis from the problem yet. 

He moved soundly and passed all her flexion tests, so this is the only issue she can find. When she palpated the stifles she could tell they were sore. She thinks we are stuck in a cycle right now. The stifles hurt, Hero uses the muscles as little as possible in the hind end, which makes them weaker and causes the stifle to catch more.

She gave us Equioxx to try for a month to help with pain and inflammation. I'm supposed to try to work Hero as much as he can tolerate without overdoing it. She also recommended bodywork. The idea is to get everything feeling better so Hero will use his hind end more and get it stronger so the stifle won't catch.

A positive thing is that it doesn't seem to ever actually lock up, but rather it just pops over the bone which is irritating. An issue is that Hero is a dramatic horse. Probably some horses wouldn't think they had to buck and leap every time a tendon caught, but I am sure the more it happens, the more it gets sore. We will see how he responds to the pain medication. 

After the vet visit I lunged him around the round pen. I'd tried to ride him yesterday but had to abandon Nala once we got to the beach. The tide was in and there was no hard sand, and I just was unable to get Hero going on it. Every few feet he'd scramble his hind legs and stop. 

When I got off and led him back, people in cars stopped to watch, thinking I was doing some crazy things with my horse. Hero was upset and kept rearing and leaping in the air, flailing out with both front legs, then kicking out the back. Some kind of circus tricks.

Today in the round pen I could see he was already moving much better after the exercise from yesterday. The vet said I shouldn't avoid hills and softer footing, but just not to overdo it. Hopefully he'll get back to where he was before his layoff for the cheek injury, and then we can try to build on that with the help of the pain medication.


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## Knave

I hope that does help! It sounds like a good diagnosis in the end. At least you have a plan.


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## Hondo

Bummer about the two weeks off, but now you know. As good as he had gotten prior to the bite, fingers crossed but I'm expecting him to get past this.

Too bad Nala's rider didn't catch some video of the circus!


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## Hondo

Questions: Does Hero have the locking stifles in both legs? And how much turn out does he have?

I'm sure you've read every article there is online. I just read this one: https://thehorse.com/120817/physical-therapy-for-stifle-problems-in-horses-aaep-2011/

I still wonder if mega doses of glucosamine and chondroitin would help. I have not read anywhere that it is recommended. That said, three orthopedic surgeons I have seen and spoken with express doubt that it helps with human knees but admit they have heard many individual claims that it does.

I am one of those along with thousands of dirt bikers. Hardly an active dirt biker out there that eventually does not get on the stuff.

My understanding is that the way it works is in providing additional lubrication to parts sliding over and against one another. Since this seems to be the issue with locking stifles, it just seems it could help.

My 1 1/2 cents.


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## bsms

The first time I hear about glucosamine was when I was stationed in Korea. Saw a guy buy some. Asked him if it helped. Said he was scheduled for knee surgery when he tried it. Ended up cancelling the surgery. A few days later, I asked one of my co-workers if he had heard of it. He told me he took it daily. Same thing. He was scheduled for surgery, heard about it, and decided to try it first. Said 3 years later, he wasn't able to do 100% of what he wanted, but was good enough that he wouldn't even think about surgery.

I haven't had enough joint related problems for any first hand knowledge. I recently started taking some because I'm 60, starting to jog more miles again, and figure it MIGHT help. I'm really enjoying jogging thru the desert again. If there is a 10% chance glucosamine and chondroitin will help, I'll pay. My wife has started taking Turmeric. She said she felt the difference in a couple of days.

Might be the placebo effect, but I always figured if a placebo worked....who cares if it is in the mind? I'm convinced that what the mind believes can affect how the body works.


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## Hondo

I'm going to jump in here about pain relievers also. Disclaimer: I have no structured medical training.

I keep ibuprofen around but only use it if discomfort prevents me from getting a full nights rest, which my body needs more and more of it seems.

Otherwise I try to consider pain as one of the bodies protective mechanisms. The discomfort being there to say wake up and listen.

I believe it is often disadvantageous to turn off that bit of communication as it often results in doing things the body would rather we don't do.

I get it, sort of, that if pain is keeping Hero from doing exercise which he needs, then the pain is counterproductive in making him rest more which reduces the muscle mass he needs to avoid hanging up. But still, if the movement causes pain, that must cause some inflammation and/or perhaps other bad stuff.

Ideally, for myself, in my experience, the best measure is to do as much movement as possible just below any significant pain or discomfort. I do not subscribe to the no pain no gain unless the pain is minor.

So there's my internet thoughts, such as internet thought are.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I get it, sort of, that if pain is keeping Hero from doing exercise which he needs, then the pain is counterproductive in making him rest more which reduces the muscle mass he needs to avoid hanging up. But still, if the movement causes pain, that must cause some inflammation and/or perhaps other bad stuff.
> 
> Ideally, for myself, in my experience, the best measure is to do as much movement as possible just below any significant pain or discomfort. I do not subscribe to the no pain no gain unless the pain is minor.


I agree, for the most part. However, I know that during some rehab there is necessarily quite a bit of pain, such as when you are getting an atrophied limb working again after a fracture, or after a stroke. 

I had one patient that refused to move a knee because it hurt after her replacement, and ended up having a second surgery to cut things loose so she could try again. 

In general I agree that you shouldn't cover up pain that is sending signals to your body, but for example if you can't take deep breaths because of rib fractures, you might need a little pain medication so you can breathe and cough and keep your lungs functioning. 

For a couple of weeks I've been giving Hero the same joint supplement I give Amore, just in case it might help. I've heard some things like Glucosamine can take several weeks to get working well in the system. It has 12,000 mg MSM for inflammation, 7,000 mg Glucosamine, 500 mg. Chondroitin, 50 mg. HA, and also Vitamin C, Boswellia, and Devil's claw. Not sure what those last ones are supposed to do.

So hopefully we're getting things from all angles: exercise, joint health, stretching/massage, pain relief and anti-inflammatories. Also I'm making sure the hooves are as balanced as I can make them. He is getting a little more sole depth, but still has small TB hooves. 

Our new boarder from CA has been very worried about meeting an elk for the first time on her horse. So I sent her this picture I took today of her horse standing a few feet away while an elk was drinking out of his water tub.









My exercise with Hero was turned from a ride into a lunging session because we couldn't get the elk to leave us alone. They were all over multiple fields today, pretty much ranging everywhere we wanted to be. 
Does anyone know of any good video games I could get for the elk to play? They seem bored.

My video is not good because it was on my shaky phone and there were too many light and shadow changes. But you can see how naughty the elk are. I'm going to start training them so I can tie them all in a row to keep them out of the way while we're riding.

I thought Hero was moving a little better with the Equioxx on board. I lunged him, tried riding but abandoned due to the elk that kept cavorting and acting like he was going to hop into the pen whenever we trotted. Then lunged some more, and quit when he started having difficulty staying in the canter and putting both his hind legs close together. I think that was hopefully pushing a little but not too far.
If you look closely you can see how he drags his hind hooves on occasion.


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## Hondo

I can see where a round pen does allow one to assess the horse's movement. But, alas, I don't have one. Hondo does drag his hinds on occasion walking but I'm attributing it to just lazy walking occasionally. I do watch him in the field.

Agree with your comments on pain. 

I think the one elk must have heard and understood you and then replied by turning his rump towards you


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## Knave

I cannot imagine an elk behaving so badly! Lol. They do not act like that where I live. I don’t understand why yours are so gentle. I thought Hero looked like he would enjoy working one. 

He is so bouncy. My husband’s mare moves more like that, not the dragging toes but the bounce. I know his was dramatic due to the misbehaving elk, but I assume he maintains a bit of bounce... It makes me smile.


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## egrogan

I can't believe they hang out so close and just "present" like that! Deer here are very flighty and go the other way as soon as they can. And while there are definitely moose around, they are so private that seeing one is still a big deal. It's just so odd to me that he's standing there like, "ok, my turn next...will that saddle fit??"


Hope the treatment for Hero gets things going in the right direction!


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## SueC

Hmm, the video says it's unavailable from my end, even on YouTube directly! :-(

By the way, one hippie thing that works very well on bandaged or covered wounds is raw honey. Completely tissue friendly but not bug friendly; promotes healing, stops dressings sticking. Someone we know who chainsawed into the palm of his hand accidentally (and luckily missed nerves and tendons) ended up using only that for wound care after stitching, and the surgeon was so impressed by how well and seamlessly it healed that he brought all his junior registrar doctors and his camera to see the healed wound! 

Hospitals here are starting to use it for multiple antibiotic resistant skin infections, as well as ulcers. Because of the multiple mechanisms by which it is antimicrobial, it's much harder for microbes to build up a resistance to it - one of the primary actions, and one that's extremely hard for pathogens to adapt to, is the extreme osmotic gradient which dehydrates them. The wound stays moist and pliable but excess liquid is drawn away. And no ripping off scabs or top layers of healing tissue when bandages are changed.


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## gottatrot

By the way, I've decided it is too risky to ever get another off track TB. Literally, 90% of all the off track horses I've known have had serious lameness issues. If Hero is able to work through the stifle issues, I will consider myself lucky. 
My good friend from down the coast told me today that her big, young and beautiful TB Bellamy she just bought a couple of months ago will have to be retired as a pasture pet.








I believe he is the 4th TB she has tried in the past several years, although he is the only one she paid very much for. Two of the others had to be put down for serious problems that made them not comfortable even in the pasture. The third also had to be retired as a pasture sound only horse. Bellamy kept coming up lame, and the first diagnosis was early arthritis, but now she was told he has had a recurring fracture that was hidden by/underneath the arthritic area, so he will not be usable. 

I love TBs and it is a real shame how they have been ruined by bad breeding and the way they are used. Nala is the only sound off track horse I know, and she gets significant hoof cracks pretty frequently. At our barn we have Sizzler, who has bad hooves and a bad knee at age 17 or so. At my last barn we had Jet and Prince, who were both unsound for anything besides light arena work. I've known so many others that were either unsound or usable for light riding when handled with kid gloves. 

For me personally, it is very important to have a horse that is very sound and physically athletic, even if they are a little crazy in the head. Say what you like about Arabs, but Amore could work very hard and never was unsound until her arthritis developed well into her 20s. On a few occasions I galloped her farther than I should have based on her fitness level, or got into some rough brush we had to hack through, or somersaulted her through a gully, or got into some deep, sucking mud. We always came out on the other side with a sound horse and no injuries. 
Halla also was able to work very hard even after sustaining and recovering from her knee injuries.
A horse needs to have a basic, sound structure with good bones and movement - otherwise you are asking for trouble.


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## SueC

It's such a shame, @*gottatrot* - the way the racing industry ruins many horses that would otherwise be good for decades. My Arabian too was sound most of her long life; she had muscle calcifications in her hindquarters though from a penicillin reaction when she was a young horse (and I've never been OK with using the hindquarters - the main engine - as an injection site since then) - and these gradually tore further with hard work and got bigger, so that at 17 I stopped doing interval training and full-on endurance training with her altogether. I was still trail riding her like a normal horse till she was in her late 20s - walk, trot, fast trot, canter, the odd gallop - just not at the same intensity/duration anymore.

That horse wasn't worked hard till she was five; industry TBs are ridden hard at age two. Don't get me started. In the "olden" days, nobody worked a riding horse hard until it was five - each year of hard work before that was reckoned to take at least five years off the horse's working lifespan.

A lot of OTSTBs also have arthritis early from the hard racetracks. For all our differences, my father didn't race two-year-olds, and most of his horses retired sound; all of them paddock sound. He also did most of the prep work on a sand track or a cushioned clay track, not on the official bluemetal racetracks. Sunsmart was completely sound and very fit when I took him over when he was 11; apart from the odd trial or trackwork with a buddy, he'd only ever worked on sand and clay, and nothing hard until age three (and mostly fitness work then, not sprint training on hard surfaces). He did, however, have horrific scars on his hips and legs from getting caught in the bars of his cage and falling on the floor suspended by one hind leg trapped high up by the hoof stuck in the iron rails spacing. He was half hanging, with his hip bone the contact point with the floor, and covered in foam, in shock and nearly dead when he was found in the middle of the night.

I find it so ironic that horses are often locked away "for their own safety" in this industry - and he got so frustrated he kicked out a lot, and that's how he got caught. He's never had any injuries anywhere near this bad from an altercation with another horse... (I socialise my previous solitaries properly instead of chucking them together willy-nilly, and I don't stick them in confined spaces when they are getting to know each other as a herd).

Are they going to have solitary confinement cubicles for kindergarteners too in the future??? Might hurt each other! Might sue someone!


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## Hondo

@gottatrot I think I'm hearing you say, "I really should have known and actually I did". "Should have gotten another Arabian".

After the troubles with Halla, Hero's problems have got to be disappointing. But it sound like Hero is sound everywhere except a couple of muscles that need enlarging. And there's very few OTTBs that get the detailed attention that Hero is getting.

I'm betting there is a high probability that Hero will become the horse you were thinking he'd be.

Before the 2 week rest it seemed he was almost there with likely improvement to follow that would allow a two week rest when necessary.

All easy to say from where I sit, but still...........


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> @gottatrot I think I'm hearing you say, "I really should have known and actually I did". "Should have gotten another Arabian".
> 
> After the troubles with Halla, Hero's problems have got to be disappointing. But it sound like Hero is sound everywhere except a couple of muscles that need enlarging. And there's very few OTTBs that get the detailed attention that Hero is getting.
> 
> I'm betting there is a high probability that Hero will become the horse you were thinking he'd be.
> 
> Before the 2 week rest it seemed he was almost there with likely improvement to follow that would allow a two week rest when necessary.
> 
> All easy to say from where I sit, but still...........


I know I did sound like that...but actually, honestly I think I was more just feeling badly for my friend, and a bit optimistic, that Hero may have minor issues comparatively. My friend is out $3,500 for the horse purchase, plus all the vet bills. That's just for this horse, not to mention all she spent on the others to diagnose and treat them - even to put them down. And all the emotional ups and downs and trauma of all that. Of course she'd like an actual riding horse someday, but first she has to make sure this horse has what he needs. 

You are very right, I am thinking positively about Hero's condition, and I am definitely fine with him never being a super athlete. I really meant I will consider myself lucky if I have a nice trail horse, even if he can't manage to gallop around or jump.
When I decided to take Hero, I did it with the attitude that there would be no regrets (except for him, obviously, if it turned out he was going to have pain issues). I knew most of this about TBs going in, but after seeing my friend go through so many apparently good horses, I am discouraged about the breed in general. 
But with Hero, my thought has been that if he turned out to have some physical limitations, that will be fine. I suspected he might not be a Halla or Nala type. Amore is 27 so she'll die of old age in a few years, and then I can get some super/monster/athlete to ride. But also since I like Hero so much, and the general TB personality, I thought _possibly_ at that time I might consider another OTTB.

But no, there are too many positive things about Arabs, and too many negatives about TBs. It might be some other cross, but not an OTTB.


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## Hondo

I am so lucky indeed to have been able to acquire a horse perfectly suitable for me other than designated as too dangerous to ride above a walk, a designation that is no longer appropriate with tack that fits and a rider he knows, understands, and trusts.

Lucky lucky lucky indeed!


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## thecolorcoal

I stopped to think long and hard about what I was going to say. At first I didn't want to reply but I felt I needed to chime in just a bit since i love gottatrot's journal, and she is definitely an inspiration to me.

I feel your pain about TBs. My friend's 3 year old ottb died 3 months after purchase after his injury being misrepresented to us. We (meaning me supervising the purchase) bought him as a rehab project, thinking we could get a great deal on a purchase price of a horse who needed layup. Unfortunately we spent too much - 1500 is too expensive for an already injured TB. His issues were too extensive and the second vet told us, after the original vet's diagnosis, he would barely be pasture sound. So on top of vet bills and a 1200 purchase price, we added 800 for euth and hauling by the carrion guy... She had 2 ottb's that didn't work out.

I agree that arabs are notoriously VERY SOUND but their personalities are not for everyone and their athletic expectations are stereotypically limited in my english discipline where warmbloods reign supreme. It's not the arab's fault and there are MANY good arabian jumpers, eventers, dressage horses. I can count on more than two hands all the arabs I know who compete in english disciplines, so I'm not knocking on them. But, still, they _tend_ not to be the best choice for upper-level english events.

I have been skimming the thread so I only know a tiny bit about Hero's issues, but a sticky stifle/patella issue generally can be fixed with work. in my opinion, It's not as big a deal as people make it seem. you need to strengthen that area so the muscles can compensate for that the ligaments have issues with. TBs are also notoriously unsound off the track but not always for injury. Sometimes they just need A LOT of time to let their bodies heal. You also have to be careful WHAT track you buy them from. Here in California we have good tracks with good horses, but we don't have MANY tracks and that makes the difference. Other states have more racetracks and consequently more lower-end racetracks. You don't want to buy your horses there.

Arthritis at a young age also sucks but you need to give these tb's who come off the track slightly broken down a hay cube. Having high expectations for these kind of horses always leads to disappointment. My TB is going to be 9 soon. I never expected her to last even 1 year. Now we are almost 3 years in and she is as sound as can be but as I have mentioned she _was not_ to begin with and it took dedication, and money, and time, and rest, and true belief that things would get better. I am always planning for her retirement. Whether she is done at 14 or 24, I came into this understanding the race horse's limitations but also truly valuing what lessons they can teach us and what amazing athleticism they have when they are sound.

But I will agree that I do not think this breed does well in the kind of endurance/trail riding you love to do. I'm just dipping my toes into trails and already I know I need a 2000+ western saddle if i got one, even though i don't ride western and it would be used rarely, because she needs expensive, extensive state of the art comfort and she is so sensitive and picky about fit that an old 500 off the rack is not going to cut it. 
*
I didn't mean to stick my nose where it didn't belong,* I just wanted to clear my throat for the breed because my horse has given me so, so much. i have my life back, and it wouldn't be so if it weren't for her, and she changed my mind about the crazy, insane, lame tb stereotype.


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## bsms

On another thread, I criticized breeding horses for movements desired for specific sports. Perhaps I should have said breeding for extremes. Although some "extremes" are theoretically sounder than others. Arabians benefit from being used for endurance, with races being done at older ages. In theory, one could do the same with thoroughbreds. Make the minimum age 5 full years and the minimum distance 3 miles. Three laps of the current fields.

But that wouldn't be extreme enough. The current model is like having the National Football League insist players retire at 18. The Superbowl played with kids. Must make sense to someone, but it would depart so far from reality as to offend me. And when one gets that far from reality, the athletes invariably suffer. Just as dogs do in shows. Or halter horses. There is something to be said for listening to archetypes. The theory of the horse. Those who cannot see a true archetype are free to distort reality, until the Gods of the Copybook Headings take their revenge. But unfortunately, the penalty gets paid by the horse, not the sportsman!

Here is a proposed law: Any time a racehorse breaks its leg, have someone break the leg of the owner & breeder. Same day. No excuses. I suspect racing might change...


----------



## Hondo

I remember some time back reading the list of winners of the Tevis Cup. While Arabians were the most prevalent, as I recall, at least one was won by a Thoroughbred.


----------



## Knave

I think that any super athlete is going to have over bred issues today. I can’t say that about Arabs, because the experience I had was limited to an Arabian ranch I worked for a couple years. Those horses did reach an extremely ripe age without many lameness issues at all, but they also were not worked too hard in the years I knew them. They were an older style too, and it seems to me that the newer styles of horses do not have the longevity, but maybe it is not generalized to all athletic breeds.

I don’t think it is just because of racing young or futurities either. I think it is because they are so finely bred for their activities. Take Bones, who is a 2013 model cutting horse. He toes out a little, not noticeable, but enough to create a brushing issue at times. He is my favorite horse ever, but as my husband points out, he shows what is wrong with overbreeding. He is small and delicate looking, but he is still strong. Mentally is a different story. He is extremely smart, and he is an outstanding cowhorse in my opinion, but he has some major issues. He self-mutilates when he feels claustrophobic, and he doesn’t handle pressure if he does not completely understand the reasoning. He thinks in a different way, which I love, but it took a lot of time to understand. He is extremely emotional and he lacks the ability to take care of himself.

Still, I wouldn’t trade him off ever. I love him to pieces and I never met a horse I had more confidence in or more of an attachment to. That being said, overbreeding is an issue. Of course too much pressure too young is going to create problems as well. I am just pointing out that it is not limited to thoroughbreds. We don’t breed horses like we used to.

Some ranches do still of course, breed for a horse with a mind, who is athletic and sound and has the stamina and the size to work. Those horses aren’t the horses that compete at the high end of things though. A horse like that would be rare to hold a candle to a horse bred like Bones in competition. 

It makes think differently. I love Zeus, the fjord colt of my girl’s, and I am on the edge of my seat to see how he turns out to work. He is definitely sturdy. I believe adding back the mental and physical health into our stock would be a good thing. I have Bones to enjoy the competitive aspect of myself and him, but a simple work horse has a big value.


----------



## gottatrot

@thecolorcoal, all opinions and insights are welcome. 
Your examples of OTTBs with soundness issues and thoughts of not having high expectations of them add to my bias in the matter.

You're probably being generous when you say _many_ Arabs are good at dressage, jumping and eventing. In general, their body type is not right and more often their temperament cannot handle those disciplines. Also, what they've done with breeding halter Arabs is a travesty. 

If I were to get another TB, it would not be an OTTB. It is sad there are so many out there, and it is people like my friend and I who could give these horses a great home, and get them started in a new athletic career. With endless funds and a large retirement farm for all those that didn't work out, it would be enjoyable. But if you are just trying to get yourself an athletic riding horse, very frustrating and expensive.

I'd find someone breeding TBs as sport horses, and find a horse with a sound and proven sire and dam. Of course, those horses cost quite a bit more than an OTTB. They may sell for several thousand right off the track, but quickly depreciate in the next year or two. 

What I'd really like is an Anglo-Arab that had the jumping ability and bravery of the TB, the work ethic from both breeds, the good hooves, strong back and tough skin of the Arab, the metabolic stamina of the Arab, the sensitivity of both breeds but the sweet people-oriented temperament of the Arab. Now wouldn't that be a great horse?

Agree with @Knave, this bad breeding is not only seen in TBs but is rampant in QHs and the popular stock breeds, Arabs, etc. Bones sounds like a great horse, but only for someone who can appreciate him as he is. 

I like @bsms' approach. Imagine if the breeder had to pay for the horse's medical problems throughout life, or insure the horse's health for life. Maybe we'd see more horses that could actually be used for something after their racing career was over. 

There are tons of really wonky Arabs out there too. However, I've seen many Arabs that I could have picked up for free or cheap because their owners can't use them. It has been rare these horses had soundness problems, it was only their spookiness, hotness, and such that made them unusable. With the TBs it's been a different story. Mostly physical issues rather than temperament. I've looked at many TBs that friends were interested in, and have never yet said to get the horse. They always have crooked legs, terrible hooves, major back issues, etc.


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## thecolorcoal

gottatrot said:


> @thecolorcoal, all opinions and insights are welcome.
> Your examples of OTTBs with soundness issues and thoughts of not having high expectations of them add to my bias in the matter.
> 
> You're probably being generous when you say _many_ Arabs are good at dressage, jumping and eventing. In general, their body type is not right and more often their temperament cannot handle those disciplines. Also, what they've done with breeding halter Arabs is a travesty.
> 
> If I were to get another TB, it would not be an OTTB. It is sad there are so many out there, and it is people like my friend and I who could give these horses a great home, and get them started in a new athletic career. With endless funds and a large retirement farm for all those that didn't work out, it would be enjoyable. But if you are just trying to get yourself an athletic riding horse, very frustrating and expensive.


i agree, but i am finding more and more that is the _agreement_ you have with yourself and the price you pay with a thoroughbred. cheap up-front, expensive in the long run. don't ever be fooled by the asking price, because at the end of their careers as riding horses they can rack up as much as an imported dutch warmblood from germany stepping off the boat.

if more people understood that about tb's i feel their reputation would be much cleaner, but instead people think "oh, cheap horse! great!" not realizing that "cheap horse" is going to cost you tens of thousands in vet bills. at the soundest level. unsoundness, add more tens of thousands. at the end of the day they are a horse that need to be *artificially maintained* and a lot of people stick their noses up in the air and wave their "that's not natural" flags, but it's the truth. they are EXPENSIVE. i calculated the cost of my horse over the two years i've had her so far, and per year she costs me $10,000 dollars, subtracting board. that's feed, vet, emergency expenses, supplements, and training. and i am NOT rich. not by any means.

my point of my post is i guess it is a bit unfair to put the expectations of a hardy, strong arab on an animal not bred or built to last naturally. they just aren't. they make them like race cars now. and the breeders just don't care, because they aren't thinking "what can the horse do after it's done racing?"

but if you want a up-front inexpensive athletic horse and are willing to put in the time, money, dedication, and hope for a lot but expect a little, they often surpass those expectations.

i'm sorry hero is not working out  but big hugs to him and i hope he pulls through! xD my friend did not have the crazy patience i had. she has sworn off of tb's, wants something that will hold up to some "abuse" per se so she got a paint! LOL.


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## gottatrot

I forgot to answer @Hondo's question about Hero's turnout. He is out in the big pasture all day, with rolling hills. I would guess their field is about 2 acres. At night he is in a smaller sand pen that is about this size but rectangular. Maybe about the size of 4 normal stalls.









It's unfortunate, because this is one of the two smaller pens. The barn owner does not want the horses on the big pastures 24/7, because in either the very wet or dry seasons it can be too much stress to keep it growing well. 
Hero was in a larger pen, about double the size, but that was next to Leo, and he was getting injured. Nala has the biggest one, but that is not optional because she goes insane if she can't pace around and run.

Amore's is also bigger, but her pen has a grassy hill, and it doesn't seem fair to take her off the grass. Hero can eat as much hay as he wants, so it's not a problem for him to be in a sand pen. Amore can only eat a little hay without getting obese, so in the sand pen I would not be able to give her more hay than she could eat in a couple hours, and she'd go the rest of the night very bored and on empty.
It seems like it might be better for Hero's stifles if he could have more room at night. I'll have to keep thinking about a solution.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot If you lived nearby, Hero would be welcome to come live in Hondo's 60 acre field for a while. That should add a little muscle I'd think.

Wondering if there is any place near you where he could have a larger 24/7 turn out on a temporary basis. What about your old friends that taught you how to ride?

If his stifles got straightened out, it seems they'd likely never be a problem again as he would be getting plenty of exercise. If I remember, from what you said in the past, he may have only developed the problem because of 24/7 in a stall.

I could in no way spend $10,000 per year for a horse on my retirement income. When winter comes I have to shell out $150 or more for hay while still paying $100/mo for pasture. But I enjoy watching them eat the hay as much as they enjoy eating it.


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## thecolorcoal

@Hondo and @gottatrot, omg!!! now i remember - my horse who has confirmed stifle issues like hero ALSO went unsound 24/7 in a stall. it wasn't until the barn we just left that offered turnout where she actually STOPPED sticking!!!


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## phantomhorse13

thecolorcoal said:


> arabs _tend_ not to be the best choice for upper-level english events.


Good thing gotta isn't aiming for upper level english events, be that with Hero or whatever Arab may be in her future. :wink:




Hondo said:


> I remember some time back reading the list of winners of the Tevis Cup. While Arabians were the most prevalent, as I recall, at least one was won by a Thoroughbred.


You certainly see some TBs doing well in distance events, as well as TB crosses (that big red gelding I ride is 3/4 TB and eats up trail like nobody's business). Currently, there is a trend of Anglos being very popular in the upper levels, at least on this coast.




gottatrot said:


> It seems like it might be better for Hero's stifles if he could have more room at night. I'll have to keep thinking about a solution.


How is Hero fed his hay during the night? Is it possible for you to put it in multiple bags or nets that are hung around the pen? That would encourage him to keep walking around..


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## thecolorcoal

phantomhorse13 said:


> Good thing gotta isn't aiming for upper level english events, be that with Hero or whatever Arab may be in her future.



Hey I saw an arabian do PSG dressage once! :wink:


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## Knave

I think two of the arabians at the ranch I worked for won high level English events. I wasn’t as interested in their achievements as the western trained horses, although I should have been. My favorite was one of the English horses. Her name was Legacy and she was around 18 at the time. We kept most all of them fitted up. She was fun to ride, kind of business minded, but a beauty who was super athletic. I started teaching her some reining maneuvers and she was as quick to pick them up as any young horse I have ridden.


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## phantomhorse13

thecolorcoal said:


> Hey I saw an arabian do PSG dressage once! :wink:



I bet there is more than one. 



I can show you two draft crosses who have done 100 mile endurance rides.. but sure not common. And a heck of a lot more work than trying with a horse more designed for the purpose!


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...I can show you two draft crosses who have done 100 mile endurance rides.. but sure not common. And a heck of a lot more work than trying with a horse more designed for the purpose!


Yes, I used to follow a blog called "Endurance Granny," by a woman trying to get an appaloosa into endurance. She had so much difficulty trying to get her horse to do the training miles at a pace where she could finish a ride. She did finish some rides, but ended up thinking it was not in her horse's best interest.
Endurance Granny: Competing on a non-arabian breed horse


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## gottatrot

I'm trying to not get overly excited and optimistic. 
However, today was the best ride (ever?) on Hero. 
_He did not buck. _

I have only given him one day off in the past week. I rode the past three days in a row. I think he is going long periods of time without his stifle tendons hanging up or popping over the bone.

Yesterday I rode alone, and went down to the beach. For the first time, I got him trotting and cantering in the deeper sand without any problems. He cantered a good distance going down. On the way back he couldn't pick up the canter on the first try, so I just trotted all the way back.

Today with Nala, he cantered a good distance going down the beach, and then for the first time was able to easily pick up the canter and go for a distance on the way back. I've been watching him on the lunge, and notice that when he gets tired he starts putting his hind legs close together at the canter instead of spreading them apart. When I felt his legs come down close, I put him back to a trot, taking that as a sign of where to stop pushing.

Hero went up and down the steep dune both today and yesterday without stopping and without bucking. It really seems to make him feel better when he knows he can trot to catch up with Nala and not get stuck. 

Our only "moment" today was when we were riding toward an old tennis shoe someone left in the sand, and when we were almost on top of the shoe it flew up under Hero's nose, because it was a seagull. Hero spooked, but I spooked harder when that shoe started flying. 

I'm starting to learn new things about Hero. I know that horses are not themselves when having pain. Halla would normally be assertive, but when she was injured and when she had ulcers she became aggressive instead. This past week Hero seems to be able to focus better on what we are doing.

When Amore is worked up, it's related to fear and she stops thinking and focusing. There's nothing you can do except wait it out. When Halla was worked up, she could think a bit, but nothing you could do would get her to lower her excitement level.

Yesterday, when I was leading Hero the last bit home, he started getting excited and swinging his head, and lifting up his front end. He seemed about to leap forward or buck or something. I lifted the riding crop I was carrying in my hand, just a few inches, and he looked at it, and then immediately his excitement level dropped and he began walking along calmly. My thought had been to correct him if he swung into my space, but I hadn't thought he could control his own energy like that. Interesting. 

He also has taught me something else. I've often used a soft cue, then a harder cue, and if the horse still doesn't respond, go to the hardest cue. So if I say "walk," and the horse doesn't move out from my seat, I give a harder squeeze with the legs, and if that is ignored I swat with the reins. For most horses this soon leads them to moving forward on the lightest cue.

Not so with Hero. If he doesn't listen to the light cue, the in between level does him no good. I am learning that if I give him chances, he won't improve. What works for him is to give the lightest cue, and go straight to something that is quite loud and/or firm. If I do that once or twice, he will begin responding to the lightest cue or even just the word. 
Funny how their brains can be so different.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I'm trying to not get overly excited and optimistic.
> However, today was the best ride (ever?) on Hero.
> _He did not buck. _



:loveshower::cowboy::cheers::clap::happy-birthday8::charge::racing::happydance:


----------



## SueC

...this is excellent, @*gottatrot* ! And I think it's wonderful how you are thinking so carefully about different approaches for different individuals. Because you are journalling about it in such detail, we can all benefit from your thoughts and experiences. Thank you! :blueunicorn:

You're a real poster person for making keen observations, thinking, experimenting, reflecting, modifying, refining ideas etc in your work with horses - and I'd imagine this isn't something that gets switched off away from horses as well.  Such a pleasure to read your journal! And I always feel welcome here too.


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## Hondo

I have learned so much already from Hero. And the other horses also. This journal is a real life living textbook that I have learned a great deal from.

This is such great news. I'm optimistic but at the same time suspect that the required muscle is perhaps just barely to it's necessary size. I'm expecting him to get enough exercise that he can take off another two weeks by yall's next vacation time without the muscle becoming small enough to cause a problem. Very happy for you!


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## phantomhorse13

Glad things seem to be turning a corner!


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## gottatrot

Yesterday we met up with two other riders and went for a long ride, 7 or 8 miles.

Hero did very well. He did buck about five times when he got tired, and he got worked up at one point when we were near a trail where he'd struggled badly on a previous ride. We didn't go down it though, and he soon became calm again. He was still trotting strongly near home and walked home nicely.









It's been hot inland this summer, which means we've been having fog and cool air pulled in from the ocean. 

Nala was quite good, she didn't even seem to feel the need to gallop.


















The other riders asked me if Hero was a warmblood because he is stocky and large.


----------



## gottatrot

Buddy's rider asked if I wanted to ride today. Luckily, I let Penny's owner and Nala's rider know about the ride. I don't think a Hero and Buddy ride would have worked out well this time.

Walking down to the beach everything was fine, but once we got onto the sand, Hero was like, "My legs are working and I'm going to use them!" 
He only wanted to trot and canter. He pranced and in general was very full of himself. 

Thankfully, Penny had noticed how beautiful Buddy was when she saw him in the round pen before our ride and was in heat. She stared at him constantly and had no interest in what Nala or Hero were doing. This was great, because after ten or fifteen minutes I asked if I could try getting some space and then letting Hero move out, because he just would not settle.
The stocky horses continued to walk along slowly, and the TBs moved out for awhile.

It wasn't that Hero wouldn't settle because he was nervous or anxious about his legs, it was that he wanted to go. Nala and Hero trotted off and then cantered quite a ways, and he never bucked once the entire ride. I actually had to put him into the deep sand and get his legs churning through it to try to burn some energy off. Instead of making him anxious, he just worked hard and seemed to like it.

Nala was looking at the awning set up on the beach. 









Getting prancy with Buddy and Penny.









Channeling some inner Halla:


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## SueC

_Both_ your feet look so admirably functional, @*gottatrot* ! ;-) A girl could get jealous! :rofl:

And it's lovely that Hero's physical improvement is holding!


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## Hondo

Sounding like you've got the horse you were expecting and hoping for. And sounding like lotsa hard work has paid off. I'm glad for you.


----------



## thecolorcoal

gottatrot said:


> I'm trying to not get overly excited and optimistic.
> However, today was the best ride (ever?) on Hero.
> _He did not buck. _
> 
> I have only given him one day off in the past week. I rode the past three days in a row. I think he is going long periods of time without his stifle tendons hanging up or popping over the bone.
> 
> Yesterday I rode alone, and went down to the beach. For the first time, I got him trotting and cantering in the deeper sand without any problems. He cantered a good distance going down. On the way back he couldn't pick up the canter on the first try, so I just trotted all the way back.
> 
> Today with Nala, he cantered a good distance going down the beach, and then for the first time was able to easily pick up the canter and go for a distance on the way back. I've been watching him on the lunge, and notice that when he gets tired he starts putting his hind legs close together at the canter instead of spreading them apart. When I felt his legs come down close, I put him back to a trot, taking that as a sign of where to stop pushing.
> 
> Hero went up and down the steep dune both today and yesterday without stopping and without bucking. It really seems to make him feel better when he knows he can trot to catch up with Nala and not get stuck.
> 
> Our only "moment" today was when we were riding toward an old tennis shoe someone left in the sand, and when we were almost on top of the shoe it flew up under Hero's nose, because it was a seagull. Hero spooked, but I spooked harder when that shoe started flying.
> 
> I'm starting to learn new things about Hero. I know that horses are not themselves when having pain. Halla would normally be assertive, but when she was injured and when she had ulcers she became aggressive instead. This past week Hero seems to be able to focus better on what we are doing.
> 
> When Amore is worked up, it's related to fear and she stops thinking and focusing. There's nothing you can do except wait it out. When Halla was worked up, she could think a bit, but nothing you could do would get her to lower her excitement level.
> 
> Yesterday, when I was leading Hero the last bit home, he started getting excited and swinging his head, and lifting up his front end. He seemed about to leap forward or buck or something. I lifted the riding crop I was carrying in my hand, just a few inches, and he looked at it, and then immediately his excitement level dropped and he began walking along calmly. My thought had been to correct him if he swung into my space, but I hadn't thought he could control his own energy like that. Interesting.
> 
> He also has taught me something else. I've often used a soft cue, then a harder cue, and if the horse still doesn't respond, go to the hardest cue. So if I say "walk," and the horse doesn't move out from my seat, I give a harder squeeze with the legs, and if that is ignored I swat with the reins. For most horses this soon leads them to moving forward on the lightest cue.
> 
> *Not so with Hero. If he doesn't listen to the light cue, the in between level does him no good. I am learning that if I give him chances, he won't improve. What works for him is to give the lightest cue, and go straight to something that is quite loud and/or firm. If I do that once or twice, he will begin responding to the lightest cue or even just the word.
> Funny how their brains can be so different.*





This is the same with Tyra. Escalating classically like we are taught does not work with her. If she doesn't respond to soft it's the dressage whip and/or spur or crop or whatever. It's very interesting but no hard feelings towards me on her part!


My BFF's mare is TOTALLY different. You can't go from 0 to 100 with her, or else she gets upset and offended. The escalating ask-tell-demand is the best approach for that mare.


----------



## phantomhorse13

So glad that things continue to improve with Hero! Excellent that he sees the beach as a source of fun now, not stress.


How did Penny do? Are you still working with her as well?


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> How did Penny do? Are you still working with her as well?


Barn girl has not been able to ride for a couple of weeks with me. However, Penny's owner has been getting more courageous about riding her. She rode last week by herself around the property.
I have been encouraging this, because I think Penny is a great horse for her.

Yesterday she asked where we were going, and I could tell she felt a little nervous about going to the beach. Then we started out and fifty feet away from the barn Penny did a few prancing steps (looking at Buddy), snorted and was lifting her tail (quite funny for a draft cross). Her owner said she thought it would not be a good day to ride.

I hopped off Hero and led Penny over to the outdoor arena, and asked (told nicely?) her owner to get off and I'd see if Penny was going to be trouble or not. First I fixed her saddle, which had one stirrup longer than the other and was canted to one side due to a loose cinch. She was using the last hole she could put the buckle through, so I tied a latigo knot instead and hiked the cinch up about six more inches. 

Not to be sarcastic, but if you're having confidence issues (Penny's owner talks about how she has lost her riding confidence later in life), at least do all the things you can to make a ride go right, such as having your saddle stay in place. 

Buddy's rider is also interesting to me, she lunges him 20 minutes prior to riding to get the "freshness" out for safety, but he has no freshness in his body at all, as far as I can tell. She rides with no helmet, in sneakers.  Seems perfectly safe to do so on him. I'm quite certain we could lose control of the TBs a few feet behind Buddy, come galloping by and he would not even blink and keep walking. 
I assume he can at least jog under saddle but I have not seem him go faster than a walk. I'd never tell her the lunging seems very unnecessary, but...can't hurt for him to get a little exercise.

Anyway, I digress. I hopped on Penny and trotted her briskly (for her) around the arena a few times, and told her owner I could feel nothing naughty in her. So she got back on, and we rode down to the beach. She had no trouble with her, just walked calmly near Buddy down and back. She said right by the barn on the way back (Nala's rider and I had gone ahead because we spotted an elk with a large rack milling around and we wanted to tell the others where he went) Penny got prancy again, but she rode through and all was well. 

I hope she'll keep riding Penny and it will help her be more used to going out when Barn Girl can come with me. But I'm mostly happy to see someone who has been nervous about riding finally getting out on her own horse.


----------



## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...so I tied a latigo knot instead and hiked the cinch up about six more inches.
> 
> Not to be sarcastic, but if you're having confidence issues (Penny's owner talks about how she has lost her riding confidence later in life), at least do all the things you can to make a ride go right, such as having your saddle stay in place....


OK, that's the second painfully hard laugh I got reading on HF in 3 minutes. May have to stop or I'll be too sore to ride tomorrow!

On a good note, rode Bandit in the arena for a half hour today, second time in the last 3 days but also the second time in almost the last 30. His knees are almost healed up and the big patch of missing skin on his back is starting to grow hair again. I used my old leather saddle because the tree is a lot bigger and I figured that would mean less PSI on Bandit's bare spot.

The stirrups are hung further forward. Had forgotten how nice that is for how I like to ride. Stretches my leg out more due to the much wider tree. Not so thrilled by that. But after Saturday's short ride, having trouble getting the cinch tied, I went and bought Bandit a 30" cinch! Now, it might be a little big for him. But he used a 26 inch cinch for the first couple of years, then a 28" cinch. The 30 inch cinch looks like it will now be a good match. Bandit isn't exactly chubby, but he's thicker! His feet have gone from 4.5" across to 5.25" and maybe just a hair more. He stands a bit wider and, if the cinch is a guide, is a good 3 inches bigger around his chest than when he was 7 years old (2015). When the 30 stretches out, it will be a little big. Not bad, though, for a horse growing between 7 & 10 years of age!


----------



## Hondo

bsms said:


> His feet have gone from 4.5" across to 5.25" and maybe just a hair more.


The horse's feet has been and still is my first interest. So I have to comment on those numbers.

The numbers indicate 3/8" thicker hoof wall on both sides. That's a lot! I'd say impossible to add that much hoof wall thickness. The coffin bone is the same size for certain.

What I'm guessing has happened, which happens to Hondo during the dry weather also, is that there is a large amount of dead retained sole on the bottom. Which is a good thing as it provides more protection from the dry hard surface.

So if there is say 3/8" more sole, and the hoof wall grows at an angle, the bottom of the hoof wall will be wider without being thicker.

And since the laminae is weaker at the dead sole, the hoof wall at the bottom will begin to flare a little adding more width to the bottom.

This was something I marveled at during my first barefoot summer with Hondo. Oh wow! His feet are getting bigger. Must be something I'm doing right with my trimming.

Now I know better.

If you're getting monsoon rains down there as we are up here, much of the dead retained sole has likely shed leaving a ring of hoof wall that needs trimming off.

Both Hondo and Rimmey shed 1/4 to 3/8" of sole and needed that much hoof wall removed. Happened almost over night.

And that puts Hondo back into boots for areas he could barefoot before.


----------



## bsms

It isn't a change in the hoof wall. He was being kept in too small iron shoes. Once he went barefoot, maybe for the first time in years, his feet started spreading out. After 6 months, his feet were 5 inches across, and now are 5.25 inches. If anything, I have to file the edges to fit him into 5.25" wide renegades.

Right now, Bandit is in iron shoes on front. He lives on dry, rocky ground in the corral. That is fine for the other two, but his feet seem to wear thin over time. A year ago, 6 weeks in shoes meant he stopped being ouchy on the trail without them. I'm hoping for the same result this time.

But for the most part, I think his feet got bigger because they were not being artificially constrained by metal shoes 24/7/365.

Now...what did years of running lots of miles in too small shoes do to his feet? And when he arrived, he used his left front leg at a 40 degree angle, toe out! What did running long miles carrying 220-265 lb riders - plus tack - do his his joints? I know this: His knees are much larger than Trooper's, and he's at the most an inch taller!

I was told recently that I'm too big for Bandit. I don't think Bandit agrees. But then, Bandit has galloped while carrying guys 100 lbs bigger than me while wearing iron shoes too small for what his feet needed to become. If Bandit doesn't go lame, it will be because he has lived since 2015 with a guy who says:

"_You want to walk? I like walking too! Say...have you ever heard the word "perambulation"? It comes from the Latin "perambulatus", which is the past participle of perambulare, which means "to walk through". Wiki says "In traditional English law, it is used specifically to mean "determining the bounds of a legal area by walking around it". Shall we check the surveyors work? You & me..._"


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:runpony:


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## Hondo

@bsms If you lay a short straight edge against the hoof wall from the hair line to the bottom of the hoof on both the front and the sides, is there any air gap at the center of the straight edge?


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## bsms

^^ Not really, @Hondo. The shoes stick out just a little so a straight edge doesn't work, but even with shoes any gap is tiny. He was eating so I didn't go to great lengths. Flies are bad right now.​ ​ 







​


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> ^^ Not really, @Hondo. The shoes stick out just a little so a straight edge doesn't work, but even with shoes any gap is tiny. He was eating so I didn't go to great lengths. Flies are bad right now.​




I meant the barefoot that now uses boots and has gotten much wider.

When putting my current signature together, the usage of perambulation I was thinking of was:


_*"perambulate
If you're fond of strolling around your neighborhood with no special destination, you like to perambulate.

When you walk for the sake of taking a walk, you perambulate. It's an old-fashioned way to describe taking an after-dinner stroll or a meander through the zoo. The Latin word at the root of perambulate is ambulare, "to walk," and the more common word amble shares this origin"*_

It is harder than one might think for me to achieve this lofty goal. I seem to think I must be achieving something when I ride. Testing a new arrangement, working on a trail section, or whatever. 

I'm trying very hard and do believe I am making some progress. Hondo says he has no interest. He wants to walk for a purpose. Getting to that yon bunch of yummy looking grass. But at least he will talk about it so there may be hope yet.​


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## gottatrot

All right you people, I made a video of my dismounts. Hee hee. Only one take because I didn't want to annoy my horse too much.

#1: The "regular" knee twister.
#2: The slow drop knee saver.
#3: The swift dismount aka "emergency" at the walk.
#4: The swift dismount aka "emergency" at the trot.
Then both of the last two in slow motion.
Note that I wear rubber soled boots and use grippy stirrup pads, but it is no problem to get away.

Well, the trot was an attempted trot because Hero, like Bandit seems to think if his rider goes flying off he better stop. 
I'm not as well dressed or graceful as those who demonstrate these dismounts online. However, I did note a couple of important distinctions that I make in my "flying" dismounts.

First, I always make sure I have a wide spread with my arms, one midway up the horse's neck and the other on the saddle pommel. A handle on those two parts in my experience will keep your upper body balanced with a moving horse as you kick off.

Second, some of the videos say to remove your right foot from the stirrup before swinging your legs. I always use the right foot in the stirrup to kick myself up and over. It stays in until the moment of kick off. This is really helpful if your horse for example darts away sideways after a jump and just disappears from under you. The kick means you control your jump through the air better.


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## SueC

Excellent, @*gottatrot* ! :clap:

Have to say, if I did #1 it wouldn't be long before I needed a knee reconstruction. It's already been through the wars through a fall into a steel gate when I was 21. The swift dismount also takes weight on _both_ landing feet and legs.

As does the slow knee saver, which I would find uncomfortable under normal circumstances but which I may graduate to later in life.

And the non-desirability of landing heavily on one foot has recently been vividly demonstrated to me. So for the dismount: What you set out to do softly may not always be so if conditions change - e.g. horse shies as you dismount.

I've thought highly of @*Hondo* 's motto since he recently coined it. Now I'm kind of living a version, but for two legs, not six! 

(Does this mean a horse-and-rider-unit is related to an _insect_? ;-))


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## gottatrot

Hero was moving good today so I took a video in the round pen after practicing our dismounts. 

I tried the expensive Myler bit again that I am selling (D high port), just to be _positive_ Hero doesn't like it. He absolutely hates it. In the video he fussed with it some, but I took him in the fields afterward and he got very angry about it and was lurching around. I guess it was one thing to wear it in the round pen, and quite another to wear it out in public.

After I got off, he didn't even want to carry it in his mouth back to the barn and kept wrinkling his nose. At the barn he spat it out, and then when I gave him the cheap bit he likes (I swear, my horses are so particular), he sniffed it and then gulped it into his mouth. 

Then we went for a ride around the hills he has struggled with and he was perfectly happy, and only bucked once when he slipped on a mole hill. I think he thought the slip was his tendon slipping, but he didn't stay upset so he seemed to realize it was the footing instead. He cantered up three hills he has never been able to canter on before. Very smoothly too! It was nice.


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## Hondo

Awesome. Thanks. Watched it a few times. But........

Did you mean to say you left your left foot in until the last in order to help shove away from the horse rather than the right? Or am I confused?

I think a horse may become more picky when the horse discovers the rider/handler actually listens and responds to his preferences and desires.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...Have to say, if I did #1 it wouldn't be long before I needed a knee reconstruction... The swift dismount also takes weight on _both_ landing feet and legs...


Actually, leaving one leg in the stirrup also has weight on both legs. The right leg has weight in the stirrup as you come down. In theory, and I think in practice a few times long ago, you can go from dismount into mounting without touching the ground.

This screenshot is from a university video saying it is an improper method because it might spook the horse. If I wanted both feet out of the stirrups before descending, it is the way I would do it:








​ 
By keeping one foot in until her right leg has crossed the horse, she can stay upright instead of getting in this vulnerable position to clear her leg:








​ 
She also never turns sideways to the horse's most likely movement, unlike this method (and yes, the screenshot borders on cruelty butt I'm not the one teaching it!):








​ 
She stays balanced, erect, facing where the horse is most likely to go if he takes off and THEN kicks free and drops. I did try that technique with Mia once. The instructor says it is bad because it can spook the horse. Frankly, ANYTHING a horse hasn't seen or felt before can spook a horse! And yeah, Mia jumped a little when I did it.

The main drawbacks were that kicking free of the stirrup was harder, to me, than just sliding my foot out when my left leg was on the ground. The other drawback is that it left me closer to my horse unless I really wanted to thrust away with my hip. Stepping off my horse allows me to step further away just by aiming my left foot further away. I can also pop my right foot out at any time, including while my left is still a foot off the ground.

Still, this "improper technique" - which an Oregon 4H video calls a proper one - achieves things that are important to me. The rider stays upright the whole time. The rider stays facing forward the whole time. Until she pulls her left foot out, she could resume riding at any time. It worked OK in my Australian saddle with the poley on the front. It looks like a pretty good technique to me. Looks a lot better than the BHS technique! This is the video I pulled it from.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Actually, leaving one leg in the stirrup also has weight on both legs.


What is your other foot - the one not in the stirrup - pushing on to create weight as it comes across the horse? I am trying to understand the mechanics behind this. I can see how your thigh has some weight even after you kick the foot loose while you are still sitting in the saddle, but can't visualize how there is weight during the actual dismount process on the right leg. 




bsms said:


> If I wanted both feet out of the stirrups before descending, it is the way I would do it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> the screenshot borders on cruelty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Why do you feel that screenshot borders on cruelty?


As someone who used to saddle train horses for a living, IME, the difference between the first and second positions can make a huge difference in how/where you land.. I will take the second position every time. That is the reason most people backing a horse for the first time will lay across the saddle before actually mounting.


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## bsms

"Actually, leaving one leg in the stirrup also has weight on both legs."

To clarify, I meant the total load of the body impacting the ground is distributed into both legs. The right leg is supporting some of the weight as you come down, slowing the descent so the left leg will have less impact with the ground. Once the left leg is on the ground, it can support all your weight easily for the 1/2" it takes to remove your right one from the stirrup.

"Why do you feel that screenshot borders on cruelty?"

Well, let's just say I find it needlessly inelegant. I would trust Trooper in that position. My wife once slipped while mounting and ended up in that position on Trooper. Then she started laughing while Trooper stood stock still - a bit wide-eyed, but stock still. Once she stopped laughing, she dropped off, praised Trooper and then mounted.

As for safer, when Lilly was being broken to ride, the trainer NEVER flopped her belly across her back. If Lilly bucked then, the trainer would have been a sack of potatoes waiting to be flung. If Lilly decided to run for it, she'd still be a sack of potatoes waiting to slide off. And when she slid off, she'd be perpendicular to the line of motion. If I have the urge to jump out of a pickup truck going 10 mph, I'll do it facing our line of travel. Going sideways at 10 mph, there isn't much my legs can do to save me. Facing the line of travel, I might be able to move a leg forward and catch myself.

Flopped perpendicular across my horse, weight on my belly and butt in the air, leaves me at my horse's mercy. Trooper might show it. Mia might have, if I was lucky. But I mount facing forward, ride facing forward, and dismount facing forward. I also like to see where I am about to land. Tough to do when looking on the far side of my horse.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> when Lilly was being broken to ride, the trainer NEVER flopped her belly across her back. If Lilly decided to run for it, she'd still be a sack of potatoes waiting to slide off.


Yes, that is actually the whole idea! The ability to easily slide off with less chance of being caught on anything.

Hopefully, if I had done all my homework, the horse was prepared for the my weight and something being over the top of them, therefore there was no reaction. But if the horse did react, I wanted to be back on the ground to deal with it, not half on/half off trying to maintain my position, likely scaring the horse even more in the process.


I think that is the basis for why I dismount feet out, vault style.. I want to be away from the horse with as little chance of being hung up or contacted on my way down if something unexpected does happen.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ... But if the horse did react, I wanted to be back on the ground to deal with it, not half on/half off trying to maintain my position, likely scaring the horse even more in the process...I want to be away from the horse with as little chance of being hung up or contacted on my way down if something unexpected does happen.


The way it was explained to me, I should be free to choose to resume riding OR finish dismounting at any time. I mount facing forward and with both hands in front of where my seat goes so I can either just step back on to the ground, or finish pulling myself up on my horse if he takes off.

I've gotten lazy dismounting Bandit. I just don't need to worry as much about him leaping forward in a dismount. When Mia boiled over, she would spend the next 20-30 minutes at 200+ degrees, looking for an excuse to boil over again. She didn't want me to dismount so she'd leap forward at the first sign I was thinking about it (usually moving my foot to the rear so just my toe was in - that was all it took to tell Mia I was going to abandon her). Bandit can go from 212 degrees down to 120 in 60 seconds. VASTLY safer! He also assumes I'm dismounting in a tense spot so I can take better care of him. He's HAPPY if I dismount because I'm going to make the bad feeling go away.

I don't worry about getting hung up dismounting. If a boot/stirrup combination tends to hang up in the slightest - and I do it at least a couple times every ride - then I get rid of that combination. Given how many English riders say it is dangerous, and how many western riders think it is dangerous not to, I think the combination of a 1" stirrup strap and English stirrups must increase the risk somehow. I once tried some nylon stirrups with my Aussie saddle. Super light. First dismount, my right leg was on the ground and I had to scrape the stirrup off my left foot! Mia was having a good day, so I tried it again. Same thing. I had to hop around and pull to get the darn thing off my left foot. Called it quits for the day and threw them into the trash.

With 3" fenders and leather flat-bottom stirrups, I've never had an issue. In the statistics I could find, it looks like no calf-roper or steer wrestler has died in competition, although their dismounts would scare me! I mean...really? How does ANYONE survive this :eek_color::








​
It never occurred to me anyone would blink an eye at the standard western dismount. Most of the ranchers I've met would take one look at the woman sprawled sideways across her horse's back and think, "*GREENHORN!*" It is driving home to me the cultural aspects of riding, along with how seemingly small changes in tack can lead to big differences in riding.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> The way it was explained to me, I should be free to choose to resume riding OR finish dismounting at any time.


When I was more nimble, I was able to do so even without a foot in the stirrup, as I could hit the ground and bounce and be back on the horse (assuming a cooperative horse and not a rodeo, of course). Now, I suspect that is no longer an option.. not even sure it would be if I kept a foot in the stirrup, as gravity seems to be stronger now that I am older..




bsms said:


> Given how many English riders say it is dangerous, and how many western riders think it is dangerous not to, I think the combination of a 1" stirrup strap and English stirrups must increase the risk somehow.


I also have to wonder if - generally speaking - the difference comes from the "normal" horse for each type rider. I _could_ step down off most working type stock (western) horses, as they are normally no bigger than 15 hands. However, I can tell you that I could NOT step down off 17h draft cross Fluffy, who would certainly be considered an english horse. 




bsms said:


> It is driving home to me the cultural aspects of riding, along with how seemingly small changes in tack can lead to big differences in riding.


Oh yes, so much of what is "right" is all about tradition and how one was taught.


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## Hondo

Twenty five or so years ago when I last had a membership in a gym, I came under the impression and belief from somewhere that deep knee bends were bad for the knees as athletic high school coaches had kids doing in the past.

I don't remember the source, but it was generally accepted as standard knowledge. I was told that bending the loaded or weight bearing knee past 90 degrees caused parts within the knee to pull apart that were not supposed to be pulled apart, and that doing so could lead to an earlier onset of knee problems.

Among other reasons, that is one good reason, seems to me, to use a mounting block, stump, rock, ditch, to mount. And also at least one advantage of some form of the two legged drop dismount.

Could it be possible that the standard cowboy mount/dismount procedure could have led to some of the "old cowboy limping" that one sometimes sees? 

Just something to think about..............

Edit: As far as the military recommendations, well, we all know about the flat feet resulting from standing at attention with the feet at 90 degrees to each other. So I would not trust mounting/dismounting recommendations to be based on knee health.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Twenty five or so years ago when I last had a membership in a gym, I came under the impression and belief from somewhere that deep knee bends were bad for the knees as athletic high school coaches had kids doing in the past.
> 
> I don't remember the source, but it was generally accepted as standard knowledge. I was told that bending the loaded or weight bearing knee past 90 degrees caused parts within the knee to pull apart that were not supposed to be pulled apart, and that doing so could lead to an earlier onset of knee problems.


This is exactly right; loading the knee at acute angles (more bent than 90 degrees) drastically increases cartilage wear and makes the knee vulnerable to catastrophic damage, especially under heavy load.

Embarrassing example: When we were building our house, it took a while for the stairs to arrive, and we were already living in it. Our toilets are on platforms requiring five standard steps up, because they are compost toilets with cartridges underneath (those are accessed from hatches in the outer house wall). Until we had the stairs, we had a heavy large paint bucket, which gave a two-step approach, with the knee loaded at an acute angle on the climb up. We did this for over four months, and females have to use the toilet more frequently than males due to onboard storage tank size differences and a few other plumbing issues, so I was doing this around 8 times in 24 hours (and both of us have a high fluid intake as we drink our green tea out of large soup mugs and have many of these).

After three months of this, I had chronic low-grade knee pain, which took a year to resolve after our steps were installed. Of course, I really should have known this, but when you're building a house, things can get mislaid in the thinking cabinet, or shuffled under the many other priorities... and the stairs were of course always going to arrive "_next week_"... :rofl:


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## bsms

Actually, I don't know anything about flat feet and standing at attention. It would be more likely to come from humping a 100 lb pack along with 50-80 lbs of personal equipment for miles. My SIL did a couple tours in the Marines and finished an inch shorter. His feet may be the only part that still works right. The US Cavalry probably taught what they did because the rider had gear on him, as did the horse. Typical trooper weighed 140-150, and the horse carried 250 total. This video was kind of funny, but it has some Civil War re-enactors trying to mount and dismount per a common manual of the time:






What hurts knees may also be an individual thing. I tried the two-foot drop (while facing forward) option a few times and landing hurt more that way. To me. Obviously a lot of others feel different. And my time in an Aussie saddle didn't encourage a BHS-approved dismount, either!

But really, if I'm honest, I do it the way I do because:

A) That is what I was taught

B) That is what 90%+ of the riders I've seen do

C) I feel completely safe doing so, and

D) It feels comfortable to me.

The BHS method genuinely freaks me out. It is like watching space aliens dismount! Now obviously a LOT of people - more than I would ever have imagined - do it, like it, and cannot imagine doing anything else. Maybe they think I look like a chubby, grey-haired space alien dismounting! It reinforces the idea that there are a lot of ways to ride, and a lot of very different perceptions of risk versus effectiveness. But yeah...when I watched that BHS video, my eyes nearly popped out of my head.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> This is exactly right; loading the knee at acute angles (more bent than 90 degrees) drastically increases cartilage wear and makes the knee vulnerable to catastrophic damage, especially under heavy load...


If people were discussing why trampolines are good for mounting, I'd understand the argument. I'd LOVE to reduce pressure on my knee - mounting. But dismounting? It doesn't stress anything more than coming DOWN a ladder. I'm just using some pressure to reduce my rate of descent.

When it comes to mounting...well, I've taken to calling it "*Climbing On My Horse*". :icon_rolleyes: Anyone know of a good rope ladder?


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## SueC

When you're coming down a ladder, you're coming down in small increments! 

Knee loads can be quite considerable coming _down_ from places. We find downhills on our mountain climbs harder on our knees than uphills - and it's the downhill that most climbers actually complain about from that perspective (the most pressing complaint for the uphills is hyperventilation! :rofl We've still got our bodyweights levering off the knees, because of muscular efforts to make slow, controlled descents rather than rapid, out-of-control descents!

...and for the toilet example, we could two-hop down, which is not the same technique as coming down a mountain, where you have to stay slow to avoid becoming out of control and taking tumbles...


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Did you mean to say you left your left foot in until the last in order to help shove away from the horse rather than the right? Or am I confused?


In some of the descriptions, it sounded like they wanted a person to pull both feet from the stirrups, before starting to swing the right leg back and over. I don't pull my right foot out, but wait until I'm ready for the dismount, then push off the right stirrup. Of course it does come out before the left one, which doesn't come out until the right leg is pretty much over the horse's rump. But it feels like one motion, basically.

Great discussion. I don't think it matters much how people dismount, as long as it works for their body and the horse they are riding. I was originally taught as a child to slide down instead of step, but when you are little you can't step down. 

Later in life I had western riding lessons, and the instructor immediately corrected me and said to step down so I didn't spook the horse. Now these were western stock lesson horses, so spooking them by sliding to the ground would probably have been about impossible, but that was the method he believed in.

Amore was a very short horse, but you might have noticed in my video that Hero is quite nice about stopping well balanced and will even square up at the halt. Amore can't stand still for long, and even if she did stop she'd often have her legs in awkward positions. Stepping off her, you might have her hip canted steeply toward one side or the other, and she was bound to walk off partway through. So I mostly slid off of her, which meant I didn't end up in some weird stretch halfway to the ground. 

Probably it wouldn't hurt my knee to get off once a day by stepping down. But my habit is to "hop" off, and often I do the quick dismount as shown at the walk as a regular thing. Why would I bother to lean over the horse and slide when I can just hop off? But after a long ride I get creaky, and like to just slide down to the ground slowly and make sure my legs work.

Other things I do people would not agree with. My horses always walk off the moment after I get on. This is my training, and what I prefer. If other people ride my horses, I have to hold them so they can get on. Because of my experience, I can still hit center saddle even if a horse starts trotting as I am getting on. Why do I prefer it? I don't know for sure. I just know it feels more comfortable for me if I get on and we go. Maybe it's because I've mounted nervous horses many times, and I like knowing that we are going forward at a walk instead of other directions. 

When starting a horse, I do like in the Craig Cameron video and when I belly over the saddle I have one foot in the stirrup and most of my weight on the near side. Before I ever get on, I want them to be very comfortable with someone getting weight into the stirrup, and both stepping down and hopping down next to them. I dismount many times before ever getting on a horse. 

I also stand over them on mounting blocks and fences, waving things around so they know what it's like to have a rider on top. The weight is the last step before getting on. But it is very helpful to have someone walk the horse while you are leaning over instead of having the first step be when you're on board.


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## gottatrot

Hero has been trained very well to walk at the exact moment I am ready, when mounting. I thought it was a good sign when he started walking away, because he felt stuck after I got on at first when riding him. 

I am showing a dismount at the end, and this is often how I get off. It's not a full drape over the horse, more that you're putting your weight against the horse to control the descent. But notice how I avoid torque on the saddle or the horse's back, which is a primary objective for me. 

I should get a gold star for showing my dismounts in all their awkward glory! I know many people who would not let me video them getting on or off a horse!! It's for the sake of education....


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> ...after a long ride I get creaky, and like to just slide down to the ground slowly and make sure my legs work.


:rofl: _Déjà_ _vu_! I actually like to dismount once every half hour to hour on a trail and walk beside my horse for a bit, to walk my legs out and give the horse's back a break. I found that it stopped my getting crampy legs, sore ankles, assorted knots etc from excessive time in a fairly fixed position. Yes, I know we post and all that, but we are kind of designed to walk, and whether I am sitting on a chair or sitting / posting on a horse, I like to take regular walking breaks to stretch out.

Also it was amazing what a difference it made to actually ride with longer stirrups than Europeans recommend for trails, for overall leg comfort. It's a bigger issue for me because of a very long femur, and I just hate being folded up too much.




> Other things I do people would not agree with. My horses always walk off the moment after I get on. This is my training, and what I prefer.


Yeah, I'm the same. I just want to get going. The horses can stand still if I ask, but I really don't when I'm mounting personally (except for bareback). Usually I will be coming up to about three quarters of the way up with my leg nearly swung over the other side when the horse takes his first step, and I'll also be starting to mock brandish my riding crop at my excited dog because she tends to jump up and down barking in our faces at that point. The whole thing is just one smooth motion and it's no advantage to me if the horse stands still for longer than it takes me to get upward momentum established. It wouldn't even matter if the horse was accelerating into a trot or canter at this point, although they don't unless I ask. It's sideways motion that would unbalance me, but a horse is no more likely to go sideways suddenly when in motion, than when standing still. If anything I think they're less likely to move sideways because startled when they are already moving forwards.

If anyone has not caught that video on the Emergency Dismount thread of the girl getting up and down on her Camargue horse at mounted games, it's really worth watching; she shows how fluidity and momentum, as well as what I can only describe as velcro qualities, can be so helpful for mounting (and dismounting).









> When starting a horse, I do like in the Craig Cameron video and when I belly over the saddle I have one foot in the stirrup and most of my weight on the near side. Before I ever get on, I want them to be very comfortable with someone getting weight into the stirrup, and both stepping down and hopping down next to them. I dismount many times before ever getting on a horse.
> 
> I also stand over them on mounting blocks and fences, waving things around so they know what it's like to have a rider on top. The weight is the last step before getting on. But it is very helpful to have someone walk the horse while you are leaning over instead of having the first step be when you're on board.


Yeah, I've never heard of Cameron but I work very similarly. It's all the peripheral stuff about mounting that spooks young horses, more than the weight. It's the hopping next to them, for instance, the upward motion - all of which they have instinctive reflexes to avoid, because of predation on their species as they evolved. So I like to do a lot of desensitising first, and break things down into lots of little steps. And I also really do like someone to be leading for a minute or so when I'm first riding, so the horse knows clearly what to do (going forward), and has a sort of support person present, with which it feels instinctively safer.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot I think I've got it. I'm going to make some even slower versions of your videos to try to get part of it into my muscle memory.

So you DO push off with your right foot. Just to get the momentum going. Got it. Not a dyslexic moment.

I'm doing something a little similar but not with the hands so far forward. I wind up sliding more than I would like. I think this may help.

@SueC I gave up working at the dairy about 6 weeks ago. My knees and energy level are just getting back to where they were.

There is a pit in the dairy that I went up and down a lot with very tall steps. And I was on and off a tractor quite a bit that had a tall mount.

I ordered two cases of Joint Juice and was drinking four per day. One is recommended. 

The exercise I got tired me out but was not beneficial. I was not there long but would come home tired and just sit. Not much riding or walking either. That really dragged me down vitality wise.

It was a good experience and bonded with a cow for the first time ever. Bella would lay her chin on my shoulder to scratch the bottom of her neck which she loved. I miss her very much. Before I gentled her she had put her former owner in the hospital who required PT after getting out. (i wasn't told about that until we became best friends)

But I digress. Yes, tall steps are bad for knees.

And coming down hills. At 25 YO living in Pagosa Springs Colorado I went for a long long hike, many miles, way up in the mountains. Solo. I was very fit. I turned around when my time had half expired. It was a very steep climb that I had no problem with going up but I had to stop so many times to rest my legs coming down that it was way after dark before I returned. Took much longer to get back than up.


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## SueC

@*Hondo* , I am actually surprised that there is a dairy near you! Because of the climate, I suppose - it'd be like having a dairy on the Nullarbor almost, from what I can see. Because I don't see much lush green dairying grass in your journal photos - do they have irrigated pastures at the dairy? Feed silage and grain? Are they running the inevitable Holstein-Friesians?

Cows are pretty cool things, and often have a really gentle side, and I'm not surprised you miss Bella. :hug: I love dairy foods so still contemplating adding a house cow to the farm... what sorts of cheese do you get in America? Here, Cheddar is the most common bulk cheese, but you can get many other varieties, including most of the European type cheeses, at a higher price.

Good thing that you're giving tall steps and mounts a miss. Does your arthritis give you much trouble pain-wise these days? By the way, what I found really excellent for the dull ache of chronic knee pain at night, during that one-year phase, was an electric blanket. The warmth worked wonders. We also got Bill onto that and it's helping him a lot, and he says he loves spending time on his warm blanket, no more aches at night!  I think it's more than just pain relief, I think the warmth actually encourages circulation and healing...


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## gottatrot

Speaking of cows, we watched the Temple Grandin movie last night, which I hadn't seen. Quite amazing what she has done for animals (was a tear-jerker).

That gymkhana video has some of the most amazing riding in it. The pony is incredible. Sometimes the rider made an error and wanted to slow or stop, and in a second he'd pause for her, and then sprint off again immediately. I hope she went out for track too. She was keeping up with a _cantering_ horse. 
I've done some crazy running/getting dragged along with horses but I've not ever managed to keep up with a canter when I've tried.









It's been exactly two weeks since starting Hero on the Equioxx. Rode him down to the beach alone tonight just before dusk and it was wonderful. 

As soon as we hit the beach, a husky came sprinting for us. His eyes were locked onto Hero in a stare and he was accelerating, so I hopped off, not sure of what he intended. Hero just stood there and the dog stopped when he was two inches away from Hero's front legs. He circled around behind and put his nose right on Hero, but this horse is no dog-killer/Amore. He really didn't care, didn't even lift a hoof. 

I waved the dog away from Hero's hind legs with my riding crop. He had a good recall to his owner, once his stare was broken. The owner was apologetic. It's not really their fault if they lose a dog when a horse comes popping over the dune. The dog was hunting.

I wondered if this would be the day we would gallop. The sand was perfect, there were huge open stretches with no activity, and I tried. Hero picked up the canter beautifully every time with very little hesitation. I told him to fly, and I believe he did what he could. He knows his body, so if he can't yet, he can't. It could be he is just not sure. 

Hero probably cantered almost a half mile, and he went fast and stretched out huge, and was cantering faster than Amore's gallop I'm sure. But I never heard or felt the fourth beat. 

He was so beautiful to ride. I would have been proud to let any of you ride him tonight. No bucking at all, and so light on the cues. No spook, just worked hard for me. 

He saw three deer on the way out, and I didn't see them until he pointed them out to me with his ears, but he just observed them. On the way back it was so close to dusk. I told him, "You tell me if you see any deer and I'll tell you." We're a good team already.

The Arabs want me to hold an apple and let them take part of it, then hold it until they're ready for the rest. Hero is offended if you don't give him the whole thing, like you're holding out on him. 
He also does not like a brush to flick off him when grooming him. I have to push down and leave the brush on him at the end of the stroke. 

Amore is the smallest horse on the property and has the loudest voice. She hollered at me when I brought Hero back up the hill, as soon as she heard me talking. She's used to going out for walks too, but I wasn't planning to take her tonight since it was late. I had to take her out for awhile so she would be happy.


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## SueC

That was such a fabulous post, @gottatrot. You managed to pick up part of me and transfer it into your world, and it was a lovely view. I'm so happy Hero is working out for you! :happydance:

Temple Grandin is amazing. I should actually try to see the whole movie!

That young gymkhana rider is at that age where you've got height and enough muscle but are still very flexible and lightweight. I remember that stage!  Then most of us fill out, and are less capable of intermittent flight like this! inkunicorn:

The worst thing about that age that I remember was that I didn't have a bra because my parents thought things were still too small for me to need one. They clearly had no idea what it feels like to be trotting bareback with even developing breasts going up and down painfully. I had about six months of excruciating bareback riding!

mg:

I'm no runner, but the fastest I've ever run was horse-assisted, when I used to lead my Arabian then-filly around all over the place on trails before she could be ridden. She and I tried to see how fast we could run together. I got a really good boost when I held on to her mane with my right hand, then she could do her extended trot (which was a fast and huge trot!), and I suddenly seemed to be wearing seven-mile-boots! :dance-smiley05: It just seemed to extend my own floating phase by a lot!


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## Hondo

Yes @gottatrot , a great great post! Your posts are educational in general and the experience with Hero has been very educational. I will never look at a bucking horse in the same light even though all bucking is obviously not due to locking stifles.

It's looking like you and Hero have many happy years ahead of you.

@SueC I was actually experiencing quite a bit of pain toward the end of the work. Particularly at night. Along with the Joint Juice I would take a couple ibuprofen at bedtime. Now I'm just taking one Joint Juice per day just to use it up. No more discomfort.

The farm is a wine and cheese place along with organic grown vegetables. The dairy is for cheese only. Only a few cows. All Jerseys.

I had already read Animals In Translation along with some Youtube videos and bought Animals Make Us Human for the section on bovines to use for a guide on working with the cows. Took a long time before I could even touch Bella but I stayed at it. The only thing I had been told was, " If any of them give you trouble it'll probably be Bella". She had just been mistreated and had a high fear level. Same procedures and handling for that type of horse worked well with her. As soon as I entered the field she would always come to me.

The dairy is all hay and supplements for feed. There was however, a huge 1,000 cow or larger dairy near here until recently. All trucked in feed.

I have drank a lot of milk all my life but after learning what has happened to the dairy business, I have switched entirely to Soy Milk. There is a dairy South of Chicago that has 30,000 cows. It's the largest in the US. Robotic milking is the big thing now. The cows have ear tags that are automatically scanned for production records and fed on that basis when their head enters a feed bin. Milking on many dairy's is three times per day, around the clock. 

The mass production methods applied to animals makes me very sad. I just cannot do anything that I feel supports that treatment. I doubt I'll make a difference but when I go to bed at night I'll know I'm not part of it.

I'm in the process currently of reading the rest of Animals Make Us Human. Have not seen her movie but her books are extremely informational. She is quite a person.


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## SueC

Totally with you re industrial animal farming. The two dairies on our road milk under 800 each, Holstein-Friesians with a few Jerseys for extra butterfat. These are pasture run, and supplemented with grain as well, plus the farmers make their own hay and silage, used especially in midsummer/autumn (drought) and midwinter (poor pasture growth). A lot of Australian dairy farms are still like that; but unfortunately, the large-scale round-the-clock robotic system is encroaching here too these days.

In Australia we don't have that problem of highly subsidised corn production and all it leads to, so it's not a common cattle feed hereabouts.

Chickens though, they are mostly mass produced here in Australia. Last Saturday we once again obtained a _real_ chicken from the heritage breed free-range chicken producer at the farmers' food market and had roasted lemon chicken for lunch, with crunchy roasted potatoes, peas and a garden salad. The chicken tasted like chickens used to. Commercially bred, industrially raised chickens are mutants that have trouble walking because their skeletons can't support their mutated over-large muscles, so they have arthritis from the time they are babies, and we just refuse to buy commercial chicken on ethical as well as taste and nutrition grounds. We'd rather eat decent chicken twice a year than industrial chicken twenty times a year...

It's easy to get depressed about it and say "Where will it end?" but the farmers' markets and growing your own have been on a huge upswing in Australia in the last decade or two.

Sorry 'bout the off topic, all. But it's so similar to the whole horse-racing machine thing here too, just the mass scale of it all and the little caring.


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## bsms

I strongly prefer my horse stand still after mounting. It gives me a minute to stand in the stirrups, shift my weight and try to stretch a little. Then a couple of minutes of walking. Then a trot, although I sometimes have to hold the horn. A minute or so of two point at a trot, then wiggle back and forth - and I'm loosened up enough to be safe walking down a road. It takes a good 15 minutes for me to feel decent in the saddle, and more like 30 before I melt into the saddle. I'm a much better rider after I melt.

IIRC, Baucher's ideal way to learn riding included a couple weeks of simply stretching on a stationary horse. My ideal would use a western saddle and have the person hold the horn for balance while doing two point at a walk & trot, straight and turning, level and uphill and down. It would allow a new rider to actively stretch. I also think standing in the stirrups is the best way to learn a horse's balance. The only way I know to successfully stand in the stirrups is to match your balance to the horse - and any error becomes obvious! When you get to where you can do it without help from the horn, anticipating changes and adjusting with them, you can try "sitting" on a horse!

I don't see much purpose behind "earning your spurs", but I like the idea of "earning your seat". Oh - and a western saddle, with 3" fenders and a horn, makes it possible for a totally new rider to feel confident doing it. And they would learn you can do a lot with a good horse using one hand on the reins and staying out of the mouth. Make them earn the right to sit, and then earn the right to use two hands on the reins. They could then earn a saddle without a horn...


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Hero probably cantered almost a half mile, and he went fast and stretched out huge, and was cantering faster than Amore's gallop I'm sure. But I never heard or felt the fourth beat.


When he drops and hits that extra gear, you will know it. LOVE that feeling!! :gallop:


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## Dragoon

Yay!!
You get the gold star for showing your on-off techniques as well as for admitting you let your horse walk off if they want!
I do the same. 
Since I don't care either way, I like seeing how my mount is feeling that day. It does vary. My own gelding will tell me how spunky (or not) he is by his eagerness to get going. Since he is a senior, I care very much how he's feeling...
The haflinger baby always wants to stand still and look around when I get on. I give him a moment even if I'd like to get going, because I want him to like going riding. I don't want to boss him around more than I have to. And so far, he does seem to like the rides (and treats, and attention...*eye roll).

There is a super anxious TB cross mare who gets more tense if you ask her to stand still. Numerous people have decided she needs 'more training' at standing still at the mounting block. Which resultied in a spinning whirling horse that required two people to get mounted. One to hold her and the other to try and jump on as she skittered around in a circle past the mounting block. Very entertaining!

Well, lessons ended a year ago and now I'm the only one that usually rides her. I wish the old instructor could she how she stands still as a stone at the block for me. I let her walk off as soon as I'm on. I fix my stirrups as shes walking relaxed with her head down. Maybe I'm wrong but I think she's anticipating comfort (walking) when I get on so she stands still and waits for it. I don't really know why she's so much better.
Only once did she take off trotting when my butt hit the saddle. So I got to practice sit trot no stirrups. Big deal. She always stops when asked. (And starts walking again.) I expect some excitement riding on windy days. 

A new boarder recently made some comment that she needs some 'training to stand still'. Nope, I replied. Not all horses are the same and some need a bit of compromise. I'd rather have a walking relaxed horse than a tense ready to explode white eyed one. This lady doesnt agree with me, but she only rides stock horse types. I doubt those get white eyed too often... 

LOVED hearing about the good ride on Hero! Those moments of heart singing are worth all the money, worry and poop shovelling...


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## knightrider

Oh, I love these journals! I've never in my life heard someone say that it's fine to let a horse walk off . . . but sometimes you might just have a horse that just needs to! You guys are great. Although I was always told it was wrong, something in the back of my mind said, "Well, maybe not."

Isabeau still does not usually stand quietly after I mount her because for a good 3 years (or maybe more), if I corrected her while mounting and made her stand, then she wouldn't go at all. Spin, back up, rear, but no forward motion. So if I got forward motion back in those bad old days, I took whatever I could get. Get her going, get her out of the barnyard and on to the ride. Nowdays, she heads out just fine, and I've been trying to get her to stand quietly to be mounted because, oddly enough, she is my best horse for beginners. So we need that now.

But, oh man, your comments were a breath of fresh air to me. And so many comments on these journals are. I love it.


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## Hondo

Hondo normally walks off when he feels me settled. Yep. Been told that's very bad. If something is in the way of or tangled with my right stirrup and I need him to wait a minute, the cue is, "Wait a minute". The response, stop, look back, "say wut?"


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## SueC

Dragoon said:


> There is a super anxious TB cross mare who gets more tense if you ask her to stand still. Numerous people have decided she needs 'more training' at standing still at the mounting block. Which resultied in a spinning whirling horse that required two people to get mounted. One to hold her and the other to try and jump on as she skittered around in a circle past the mounting block. Very entertaining!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :clap:

Thank you for a good dose of morning laughter, dear @Dragoon! 

This scenario reminds me of a joke.

How many Irishmen does it take to milk a cow?

...24. Four to hold the teats, twenty to lift the cow up and down.

:cowboy:


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## Dragoon

Yep, as things were winding down last year and all the school horses sold, I was left with this mare and a few students. That's how I got the kids on, told them to wait at the top step and hop on if she paused...lol. She was good as gold, too, for the kids. Very forgiving of rider mistakes and super obediant. I've never seen her do anything remotely defiant of her rider. And I've seen her jabbed, pulled back on and bounced painfully on her back as the kids learned to canter or jump. She'll trot and hop crossrails for the full hour if you let her. I make her take her walk breaks though she doesn't ever ask for them. A few OMG crouches and little spooks though. She is a very anxioius mare. I just told the kids 'Don't worry you'll get used to them!' and they did. For one brave 12 year old, this was her favorite horse. She learned to canter on her. 
I hope someday she finds a home with someone who can look past the bad and see the good horse in there. I like kids, they're not full of internet advice like 'Horses must stand still until given the order to move'...


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## SueC

@Dragoon, they say change happens one funeral at a time! ;-)


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## bsms

When I got on Bandit (both times) today, he felt no need to go anywhere. So I scratched his neck, made sure the bridle was pulled back well behind the ears, fussed with my seat, and then said let's go. But...if he NEEDED to canter as soon as my rump hit the saddle, I'd prefer dealing with that than dealing with a wound up horse. I'll confess, though, that I'd really appreciate a chance for my butt to his the saddle first!

Although that is the idea to holding on to mane & reins with one hand, and the swells or horn with the other. He should be able to take off BEFORE I'm in the saddle and I should be able to finish the rest at a run. But...I'm 60, and I'm quite happy that he's happy to wait for me to finish wiggling in the saddle first!

PS: When I was much younger, and Chris the 110 LB Dog liked to go running with me, our first mile of running usually clocked in under 5 minutes. For perspective, the rest of them were at 7:30/mile.


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## Knave

I don’t really care so much about my horses standing when I get on or off. In fact, I teach some that I want them to keep their pace when I am doing dumb things.  

I do think there are exceptions to each rule though. A small child’s work horse (I can understand @Dragoon’s mare where there is help for the child and supervision) is something I expect to stand. I’m lucky as I haven’t had one prone to taking off for the kids, but in the past, sometimes everyone was working and something would happen and all the sudden I would look back and a long ways back is a kid off their horse getting some dropped thing or whatever they were doing and crawling back on and my stomach would make a quick flip flop. 

Another is the elderly person’s horse. My grandfather is a spectacular cowboy. Up until last year he still rode for short work days. His mare was a saint at the mounting block. When he was riding his legs would go numb. When he stepped off onto the block she had to stand while he leaned on her until the feeling was back. I always watched this nervous for anything to go wrong, but the mare never faltered.


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## SueC

That's marvellous, @*Knave* . And I really do believe that horses will take care of people they love, and I've seen it.

:rofl: If I said this on the main forum: Howls of outrage. Animals don't love. You're _anthropomorphising_. They're the lower life forms. We're the higher ones. OMG, it really is like the film _Idiocracy_, isn't it? ("You mean we should give plants water, instead of Gatorade? Water, like in the _toilet_?" :rofl

Hello! :wave: Your local neighbourhood friendly, academically outstanding biologist with four decades of animal experience speaking. Look up "anthropocentric world view". Stop thinking humans are sooooo different and superior. Realise that the social mammals - and this includes us, horses, dogs, cattle etc - are biological _cousins_ with huge amounts of shared biological and evolutionary heritage. Realise that the instinctive parts of the brain are actually very _similar_ across these species, more similar than they are different. Realise that emotion resides in these "primitive" parts of the brain, and is key for not getting eaten by lions, for successfully bonding with others, etc. Realise that social mammals all think and reflect and learn, even if they don't do it in human language - and realise that we humans don't do all our thinking, reflecting and learning in the confines of language either.

_Confirmation bias_ is another interesting concept. The subconscious investment in standard human social and cultural ideas skewed so much of early animal behaviour research. Together with badly designed studies and experiments, it gave us dominance theory, still much beloved by many animal trainers (especially _professional_ ones), many other simplistic and inaccurate ideas about animal behaviour, and stupid funded experiments like, "Does a howling dog really feel pain, or is the howling just an instinctive response?" Because animals can't really _feel_, you see, they're not _human_, and anyway I'm the professor and you know _nothing_!

It's really instructive to read Jane Goodall's work, and in particular her retrospective commentary on what you could and could not say at the time she first started publishing. She had to censor her own work and delicately rephrase stuff so her colleagues wouldn't dismiss her as an intellectual lightweight for not fitting in with their own unexamined cultural biases.

In the world of horse behaviour, Marthe Kiley-Worthington does some fantastic work. If you've not already got "_Horse Watch - What It Is To Be Equine_", put it on your Christmas list!


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## Knave

Hahahahahaha @SueC that is a word I have come to really dislike. I see emotions all of the time in my animals. I see them think and reason and I have no doubt about it. I love the Bible story I have quoted, but I guess many people don’t believe in that. 

I don’t think that we are that much above everything else either. It seems like such an egocentric view doesn’t it? Like humans are the only species with a thought process or emotions. It makes me crazy! And why have we come to these conclusions? 

I guess it bothers me because I have seen emotion plain and simple in my animals. Jealousy, anger, disappointment, shame, excitement, love...


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## Hondo

I read somewhere in the past a theory that it was the opposing thumb that gave rise to the human intellect. The theory was that the human intellect was a hindrance to survival for animals without the opposing thumb and digital dexterity that we have. The idea is that a horse would die in the wild with our intellect. While we, of course, would die with his.

..........................................................................................................................................................

Back to mounting/dismounting.

I'm recognizing that I am almost twice the age of the 40 YO's. I carry a two step folding stool in the bed of my pickup for mounting and dismounting the pickup bed when the tailgate is down leaving the bumper inaccessible as a step. And with bone on bone for both knees, I am constantly vigilant about how I use them. It has been some time now since I last jumped from the bed of a pickup.

What I do now is sort of a two legged slide dismount with the slide on my belly and chest reducing the impact when my feet reach the ground. Plus of course the tallest mounting feature within reasonable walking distance.

What I really need to do is to teach Hondo to lie down for mount/dismount.


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## Dragoon

I forgot to mention, the main reason I forgive this mare's tendency to walk off is because there seems to be a need. I watch what she does when on her 'own' time. She moves way more than the other horses. I watch these guys all the time...things they do on their 'own' time helps me not take it personal when they are 'bad' under saddle.

I have four horses I took care of last winter. In bad weather, when turnout was not possible, I would free longe these four for exercise in the arena. At my. signal, all must stop, change direction, etc. This mixed breed mare obeyed, but could not keep still. Started walking again every time. When reprimanded, this mare would duck her head and pace a small circle. My gelding, who is boss, would have his ears pinned and be showing her his teeth...still she breaks rank. Grabbing her halter and telling her STOP gets you a high head and quivering...she visibly relaxes when released to walk. She's kookoo, no doubt. 

I still think she comes and stands still at the block because there won't be a battle there, from me. And stands still for me to get on because once I do, she can walk. By not turning it into a fight, I get what the others wanted...

For mounting, I am a fan of the belly vault onto the saddle. If the horse takes off, I slide off onto the ground. I've done that since my first week of lessons, long before I met the kookoo mare. My gelding has a sense of humour. He sometimes sidesteps when next to the block. By belly vaulting, I fly onto that saddle no matter how far he swings. 
Yes, he is spoiled. I have no intention of ruining his game, he so rarely attempts to play with me, his special needs monkey.


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## knightrider

> What I really need to do is to teach Hondo to lie down for mount/dismount.


 @Hondo, I have been told that staying on after mounting a lying down horse is super bumpy jumpy lumpy and not comfortable at all to do.:smile:


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## SueC

:rofl:, @knightrider - that description!


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## Knave

@Dragoon sometimes the mildly kooky ones are the best right?!  My Bones has his crazy too. When I was nine or ten I was given a mare named Runt. Boy did I love that mare. She was four at the time and no denying that she was blown up. 

She could not have stood at a mounting block I am sure. She never stood when I got onto her, and probably never stood still much at all to be honest. She was as tough as nails when it came to work, super cowy, and fast fast. She was my friend too, wound as tightly as me. Everywhere we went she pranced along, and she had a tendency to rear and crowhop along too. She was known to occasionally run away. Man I loved that horse!

She saved my life sometimes when my stupidity outran the small intelligence a high schooler maintains. I was out of high school when she helped me out of a bad situation on the side of a very steep mountain on a cat trail. In doing so she ripped a muscle straight down through her ribs leaving a gaping hole under the skin. 

Everyone knew the mare. She had won a lot of stuff for me in town. The vet looked at her and said it couldn’t be fixed on such an athletic mare. She then followed me around being a pasture ornament for a time. We discussed breeding her, but we were young and broke. She got pigeon fever that ruptured internally, and she lived through that. I ended up giving her to a cutting horse breeder a year after the pigeon fever in hopes she would spend her life in green pastures with bratty little foals following behind her.

I looked into getting a colt out of her, but sadly when I called I found that she had never taken. I assume it was the pigeon fever that sterilized the mare. 

Anyways, all of that just to say I don’t look down on your mare for being more anxious. Runt will always hold a piece of me; a piece of my history and also a piece of my love.


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## Knave

Lol @knightrider I don’t think it’s lumpy and bumpy. I am not a person who teaches the lay down trick, I don’t like it to be honest, but if a horse is laying in the corral that I am catching I will halter him, crawl on his back, and then let him get up. It’s super fun!


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## SueC

I saw this today and thought you would all enjoy a good laugh. Serious eating/drinking warning here - don't do it while watching; choking and keyboard hazard...


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## Knave

That was funny @SueC!


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## phantomhorse13

knightrider said:


> I have been told that staying on after mounting a lying down horse is super bumpy jumpy lumpy and not comfortable at all to do.:smile:





Knave said:


> but if a horse is laying in the corral that I am catching I will halter him, crawl on his back, and then let him get up.



I think its a fairly.. lurching movement though. We had a horse at the race farm I worked at a million years ago that would lay down when she felt she had worked enough. She deflated gently and would leave you standing over her until she decided to get back up again. She got up faster for me than anybody else - likely because I just waited her out versus beating on her - so I got used to that weird motion as I was the one always assigned to ride her. Gotta love a red mare (and needless to say, she never made it to the track)!


That movement may or may not be kinder to @Hondo 's knees than mounting regularly. Probably depends a lot on the specific horse and the particular creaks of the rider.


How vault-like versus slithery my dismount is has a direct correlation to how many miles I have ridden.. :wink:


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## Hondo

This is just soooo weird. Thought it was weird when it happened after my post about teaching Hondo to lie down for mounting, but now after reading all the above posts, it is really really really weird. Yikes weird.

Went riding today and actually led Hondo all the way to the top of the connection trail. Still lots of work to do.

Was thinking some about the kneeling thing and realizing how particular Hondo is about choosing a nice soft spot to plow his knees into when going for a roll, I decided that asking him to kneel in the rocks would be abusive and I'd likely need to walk farther for a soft spot than for a rock/log for mounting.

Now I was told early on that a horse pawing in the water is likely to roll so I always move him out when he does. One time and one time only about three years ago he was sniffing and pawing the sand in front of him and went down. I stepped off and got him up with the reins and remounted.

Today we were returning and almost back home when he just dropped like a rock in a soft sandy spot. Down on the front and then the hinds before I could react. This time I just yanked on the reins saying loudly hey, hey, hey, and he got up. (bitless bridle btw) (and very comfy and controlled getting up)

Now is this a coincidence or what? Is Hondo reading my mind? Or does he have a computer stashed away somewhere? Or does he recieve computer waves through the ether to his brain? Was he trying to tell me kneeling would be ok? So strange.


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## Knave

That is definitely a crazy coincidence!! Maybe he knew you were thinking about it. 

When I was a very little girl I rode a horse called Darcell. I was trying to learn to unsaddle, maybe I was five. Anyways, when I undid the cinch I thought she should and then she did. She shook down the saddle for me. I was so excited! I told my parents “I can unsaddle my horse now!” 

Anyways, time went by and Darcell always shook my saddle off for me. Then one day I was unsaddling when my parents happened to still be there unsaddling themselves. Boy did that not go over so well! Lol. They did not see the amazing communication the mare and I had going on. I didn’t know it would hurt the saddle.


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## bsms

Bandit is awkward enough getting up on his own. I'm not convinced he COULD get up with me on his back. Besides, his knees look like this all too often:








​
The right leg has now healed, and the left is much better. Almost closed. Although he scrapped it somewhere, somehow :shrug: :


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## Knave

I am confused as to why he does that @bsms.


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## Hondo

I think Bandit needs a pair of knee pads.

George The Mule started a thread a few years back about whether a horse could read minds. I was skeptical and did not follow the thread. I'm getting less and less skeptical although the science in me still says no way. It was just so surreal. He both went down and got up so smoothly. I almost wish I had waited to see if he was going to roll.

Our bond has gotten so much deeper in the four years, especially the last year. Makes me wonder I tell ya.


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## gottatrot

For sure I won't be hopping and flying off a horse in 30 years. I'll find some other methods by then:













Very interesting about Hondo laying down. My opinion is that I don't believe animals literally read our thoughts, but are so intuitive and observant that it can feel like they do. They are in touch with so many things that we can't understand. 

Agree with @SueC...it can help us understand animals so much better if we think of them as more like ourselves in terms of emotion and feeling. I was reminded at work recently that not too long ago people thought babies didn't feel and that crying was just a response. So they would operate on babies without pain medication. My grandma told me once that fish did not have nerves and could not feel.


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## SueC

With Sunsmart, and with my late Arabian mare in particular, I sometimes joke we communicate by telepathy. I don't think that's what it is, but it looks and feels very similar! I think horses are extremely sensitive to body language and to unconscious cues we are giving off, and I also think they are often thinking about a situation too and trying to solve a problem they are aware of. 

Disclaimer: This only works when you have a partnership approach with a horse (as we all do) - if you think horse riding is about training a service robot, you won't be spending much time listening to your horse or asking it what it thinks, and it won't be in the habit of offering you its thoughts. (And then those people say to us, _You're imagining things! You're anthropomorphising! You're delusional! :rofl: ...I've been working with horses 30 years and I've never seen this..._ :rofl: Because they've been living in China for 30 years but don't know a word of Chinese... :rofl

When I was 9 and got that French Trotter mare, I learnt a lot about how this works - and I think children go with the flow more and are open to all sorts of things, like fairies at the bottom of the garden - they have not yet got these rigid ideas about what is impossible in this world. Therefore they are receptive to things adults may be blocking out. And so I grew up with that kind of communication with horses, and sort of took it for granted, and was surprised when I learnt this isn't the norm in the horse riding world. :rofl:

One thing I remember in particular was when I was first trying to mount this mare bareback. She was over 16hh, and I used to take her over to a bunch of logs etc to try to get on her back, and one day, when there wasn't a suitable bunch of logs nearby, and I was thinking about how to get on, she looked at me and dropped her head down near the ground. I was trying to figure out why she was doing this, and eventually the lightbulb went on, and I leaned across her neck, and sure enough she offered no objections (it was more like, _Finally my little monkey foal gets it!_), so I put my weight on her neck folded across it, and she gently elevated her neck until I could slide on her back. And after that, it's how I always got on bareback with her. And this only worked because I was little and didn't weigh a ton.

I don't think anyone trained the mare (who was 12 at the time) to do that, I actually think it arose from that particular situation. She was a very maternal sort of mare, who had been weaned off a foal just before I got her, and I think she adopted me, in a way - her relationship with me was very different to the ones I had subsequently with other horses. She was very Mama Bear and protective of me, and if I was starting to slide around at a trot on a trail bareback, she'd carefully re-balance me, and lots of other things like that. When we got to Australia, and when the horses initially had the run of the farm, one day I was walking around barefoot a fair way from the house, in the bush, and got stuck in a patch of prickles. I ended up sitting on a log in the prickle patch, pulling prickles from my feet and wondering what I was going to do, when the mare turned up and lowered her neck. She had been nearby with the other horses, and had seen that I was in some sort of trouble! And I slid across her neck, and she elevated me up, and with no lead rope, just as we were, she took me straight back to the farmhouse. I gave her a big hug after getting off, she rubbed her head on me and then went back to her herd to graze. I thought it was pretty cool at the time - I was 11 - but looking back as an adult I am really amazed, and extremely grateful for that mare and what she taught me.


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## bsms

I don't know how or why Bandit gets scrapped up so often. The other two never look like that. I think he's the only horse I've had over the last 10 years who does. It isn't a daily thing with him or I'd never get to ride. The guy who had him before said his dam was the same way. I didn't ask about knees specifically, but he said if only one horse in the herd got hurt, it would be her. 

My best guess is that pain isn't a big motivator for Bandit. If he wants to do X, and he knows it will hurt, he does it anyways. Maybe his time carrying 250-300 lbs of weight on his 800 lb body covering 10-15 miles as fast as he could taught him to ignore pain? Seems to me it MUST have hurt. He did it all the time. He's not "stoic". He'll talk now. But he isn't as intimidated by pain as the other horses.

I'm come to think dogs are telepathic. Too many times I've given a nibble to the dog next to me - a VERY quiet nibble - and 10 seconds later, the second dog has come from across the house to get his share. These 2 dogs are exceptionally close, too. In the years we've owned them, there has never been a hint of aggression or resentment between them.

With horses, I'm more inclined to think it is an intense awareness of us, to a degree we never experience. There were a lot of negative things to the lessons I took, but I liked this: She said she hoped to someday be 1/3 as aware of her horse as he was of her, and she expected to die without success!

"Because they've been living in China for 30 years but don't know a word of Chinese...







)" - @SueC



> So he became furious and beat the donkey with his stick. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and she asked Balaam, “What have I done to you that you have beaten me these three times?”
> 29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You made me look like a fool. If I had a sword in my hand, I’d kill you now!”
> 30 But the donkey said, “Am I not the donkey you’ve ridden all your life until today? Have I ever treated you this way before?”
> “No,” he replied.
> 31 Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes...


I'm sure many will disagree, but I've always taken this passage literally. And wanted Him to open my eyes and open my ears...to a world much bigger, much grander, and much more populated, if you will, than the one I normally see.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Make that more like 36 years!

Oh man, that second movie was a study in dismounting dangerously. I do like the little girl except I don't drop as far and don't fall down - usually.

The woman in the third one saw it coming but did not hold down hard enough with her foot. The lady dismounting needed one more step and a larger base (on the stool. And a nutrition plan.

@SueC Not that many years ago I would have declared HOGWASH and scoffed at your post. Not now.

One thing I do deeply believe is that there is much going on in our subconscious that we are unaware of, but the horse sees it all and knows as much about our subconscious as any Zen Master doe his own.

The horse I believe literally knows who we really really are. Something we may shield from the world around us, but not the horse.


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## SueC

This is an excellent book if any of you have a free spot in your reading piles:










Ever wondered how birds turn together as a flock mid-air? This is about instant communication in social animals, and lots of other fascinating stuff, much of which we can apply to our own lives.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Smar...MI9IHNutPU3AIVELaWCh0k_wETEAQYAyABEgJTMfD_BwE


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## bsms

^^ Ordered, $5 including shipping, hardcover from Amazon. SOOOO much easier than when I rode my bicycle to the bookstore and searched in vain for a book.


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## SueC

But think of all the incidental exercise that gave you! :rofl:

We originally got this from the library last year, but you know, with my foot waking me up in the night these past few nights, and sending these disconcerting pain messages I need to distract myself from, we're getting an e-book version today so I can read it again - e-book readers are pretty good for night-time reading without disturbing partners. (I've been writing in the middle of the night but the keyboard noises are a little distracting for uninjured persons in the bed trying to sleep. ;-))


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## gottatrot

The last two nights I've been lunging Hero before heading to work, and DH walks Amore down to hang out by the round pen grazing while Hero exercises. Amore just focuses on the grass, so sometimes DH drops her lead and does other things while keeping an eye on her.

Tonight Hero got to feeling really goofy. DH has been picking apples off the trees near the round pen where the elk sometimes hang out (to eat apples). He started waiting until Hero was about to come by that side of the pen, then sprinted along the side, and Hero just loved the game immediately, and was throwing his head around and racing fast alongside DH for a few feet. Then on the other side of the pen, the goats were standing and looking over, so he'd shake his head at them on the way by too.
He was getting really animated, and started cantering fast so I chased him faster with the whip and for the first time I saw him gallop! It wasn't for long, and it wasn't beautiful, but he did the four beat so now at least he knows and I know he can do it without problems.

Thanks for the great thoughts!


> *@Hondo* - The horse I believe literally knows who we really really are. Something we may shield from the world around us, but not the horse.





> *@SueC* - Because they've been living in China for 30 years but don't know a word of Chinese...





> *@Bsms* - I'm sure many will disagree, but I've always taken this passage literally. And wanted Him to open my eyes and open my ears...to a world much bigger, much grander, and much more populated, if you will, than the one I normally see.


Me too.

I know everyone hasn't galloped on horses, but I was recalling my first time at the gallop. I'd been riding for a few years, and had thought perhaps I'd galloped sometime, but really I'd only cantered fast and wild. It made me wonder about others' first experience with it.

For me, it was a frightening/wonderful/terrifying experience. It wasn't something I meant to do, or planned to do, but soon discovered that taking Amore to the beach for the very first time with someone I didn't know very well, on a very big TB she meant to gallop (Nala's rider, on her previous TB, Foxy), meant that we were going for a long gallop as well. I'd cantered on Amore in open fields, pretty fast, and thought that's what she had in her. But if you take a scared little Arab with eyes bugging out to a vast, open plain similar to the deserts embedded in her genes, and then take her only link to safety (the TB) and gallop him away, soon you will find the little Arab galloping away also.

I was riding in a western saddle at the time, since that was what I rode out of the arena in. When Amore took off, I hadn't gone that fast on a horse before. The TB easily outdistanced us, but that only made Amore more desperate to reach him. At first it felt like I was going to just get thrown off by the motion. My two point at the time was sketchy, so I just sat on the saddle. My stirrups were kind of flapping around and I was hanging onto the horn but still thought my legs were going to get thrown out and over the horse. Amore's neck is very short. It seemed like there was nothing in front of me. Her gallop isn't particularly rough, but compared to a canter a gallop is rough, and her canter and trot have a perfect metronome rhythm, and are gliding; smooth. Her walk is like being beat around inside a washing machine (she over-reaches dramatically, and her back is super short anyway, so the rider moves in all directions), but her other gaits are nice. 

It's hard to describe how the terror was all confusingly mixed up with the excitement and wonder of it. It was like Prefontaine said:









Then suddenly, it felt like I was flying.








That's how you get hooked.

It was awhile before I galloped again. Maybe over a year? 
Eventually I galloped on all sorts of horses. But the one thing I learned is that if you're on a tiny little horse that feels like she shouldn't be going this fast or her engine is going to blow up - that's the hardest kind of gallop to ride. 
The big TBs, in general are the easiest, because although they can go very fast, they have a lot of gears, and they're more stable, their gallop is more natural because it was bred into them, and often it is quite comparatively smooth. 

Halla's gallop was as much like a washing machine as Amore's walk, and sometimes it felt like you should do this to avoid getting churned around with it:








Things went best if I rode it like this:


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## SueC

@gottatrot, thanks very much for posting those dismount clips! I just loved how the mother interacted with her little girl as she dismounted the (to her) giant horse in Clip 1. The you-can-do-it smiles of encouragement when the little girl was still at the top, and then the smile and high-five after she overbalanced and landed on her bottom - that put the focus on the little girl's successful dismount, rather than getting her mind bogged in the tumble. And the huge smile as she got up, and how she ran, then skipped, away - just lovely! 

Enormously funny clip of the old lady with the ladder and everyone laughing. That will be me one day - I actually aim at that - I think it's so great when people find ways to still do the things they love. 

And Clip 3 shows why I'm never going to leave my left foot in the stirrup when dismounting! :rofl: This person was lucky not to be significantly injured...

I'm so enjoying everyone and everything in this wonderful discussion that's going on here at the moment! :happydance:

The Internet does have its advantages. While I do wish we could have actual coffee around a table and all go riding together, it is still pretty marvellous to sit at this virtual table in international company, learning so much from each other, about horses, riding, people, life, and everyone's particular spot in the world.

:apple:


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## Zexious

What a fun telling of the story, @gottatrot <3 I can't say that my memories of my first gallop were nearly as interesting--I was an adolescent looking to push the speed limits, as they so often do. 
I've found to have little preference between the sprawling gait of the warmblood breeds, or the more erratic nature of more compact gallops. The difference is definitely there, but I like them all equally. Sometimes a little chaos can be fun.


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## bsms

Probably 95% of my gallops have been Mia bolting. There have been a few times when Mia or Bandit briefly shifted to a gallop in our little arena. One could easily feel the gear shift, like the driver let out the clutch too fast. But running in a tight circle didn't do much for either of us. Too much work for the horse and I'm left trying not to slide off to the outside of the circle. And there was nothing fun about bolting! They felt more like this, only without the ejection seat and without the chute:









"By U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Bennie J. Davis III [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons"
​I'd love to try a gallop on Bandit someday. He seems to have a smooth gallop & I'd trust him not to go stupid. It is hard enough to find a place where a canter in the open is reasonable. There are a couple of spots, a couple hundred yards each, so maybe I can ask him to shift gears one of these times.​


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## Hondo

Interesting about the smoothness of the different gaits expressed by different horses.

Hondo is a bit of a workout just walking. During the first summer I rode him, on his first spin and bolt while drinking out of a creek, I was amazed at both the speed and smoothness. It actually felt very fun but after about 1-200 feet I decided I should rein him in. He stopped fine but was not excited about going back to the same spot.

I have no idea what gait he was in and have no recollection of whether I was three or two point. I just remember it being incredibly smooth.

If a little younger, yes, I could become hooked.


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## knightrider

Here is a galloping story: I had my own horse as a kid, so, of course, we galloped all the time, raced each other, and knew the rate of speed and who would win for all of our horses.

Even as a somewhat young adult, I raced my friends and knew how fast each of our horses were in relation to the other horses.

I was probably in my 40's when out exploring by myself, many miles from home on my white 16 hand long leggedy appaloosa when we came across a racing track in the woods created by kids on motorcycles. I thought how fun it would be to let my mare out in a full gallop around that track. She flew . . . it felt like she was running faster than I had ever ridden a horse before in my life . . . she was SO fast! And suddenly I realized the track was not very smooth, and if she hit a rough area, she could fall and it would be bad. Suddenly I was scared, and just then she came to a dip in the track, and when she came out of the dip, my back was completely seized up in agony. I am certain that I hurt my back because I suddenly got tense, and if I had stayed relaxed, I would have been just fine.


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## egrogan

My first galloping story was with Izzy, maybe 4 or 5 years ago now.At our first barn, we regularly rode to a corn field that was perfectly oval shaped, easy to imagine yourself as a jockey on a racetrack :wink: We’d have to ride through the parking lot of a manufacturing facility, cross a paved but not-busy road, and soon you’d be in the midst of the corn fields. We crossed a little land bridge over a drainage ditch, and hit the first corner trotting. I’d inevitably ask her out loud, “you want to go fast today?” and give her her head to decide. If she felt like it, she’d take off until she hit the first long straight stretch and level down and out into that fourth gear. We’d fly around the two turns of “the backstretch” but I’d have to ask her to slow down before we got to the next straightaway because the tree branches over the mowed path were too low for me to navigate up in the half seat I’d ride her in. I loved riding that route, and miss having her be so carefree...


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## Zexious

I wonder if bolting counts as a gallop for the intents and purposes of this discussion? Maybe the determining factor there is the rider's response?


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## SueC

Nope, it's the speed and four-beat of the steed. The rider has nothing to do with it!  Just luggage of some sort - either more or less effectual luggage (along a spectrum, possibly the shape of a normal distribution).


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## bsms

> "'The sense of power and audacity that possess the cavalier, the unity with his steed, both are perfect,' remembered on Civil War veteran who attempted to describe what it was like to charge into battle. 'The horse is as wild as the man: with glaring eye-balls and red nostrils he rushes frantically forward at the very top of his speed, with huge bounds, *as different from the rhythmic precision of the gallop as the sweep of the hurricane is from the rustle of the breeze.* Horse and rider are drunk with excitement, feeling and seeing nothing but the cloud of dust, the scattered flying figures, conscious of only one mad desire to reach them, to smite, to smite, to smite!'" - The Last Stand: Custer, Sitting Bull and the Battle of the Little Bighorn by Nathaniel Philbrick


A bolt is more related to a charge than a gallop. It has nothing to do with the 30-40 yard sprints away that Cowboy and Trooper have done on rare occasions. It is still a gallop, technically, and that surge of power and the shift into the higher gear is still there. It is what follows that is night and day different. The problem is that my subconscious doesn't understand that Bandit shifting gears will NOT have the same outcome that Mia shifting gears tended to have!

And on a bolt, versus a charge, THIS rider was NOT "drunk with excitement". More like scared as heck, thinking, "_This is NOT a really good day to die!_" :lol:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> And on a bolt, versus a charge, THIS rider was NOT "drunk with excitement". More like scared as heck, thinking, "_This is NOT a really good day to die!_" :lol:


Yes...I went on many gallops with Halla, and some were kind of wild but she only bolted once. That was more than terrifying with no pleasure involved. It was when she had ulcers but I didn't know it, and we took one step of canter, the acid apparently sloshed around and burned her stomach, and she bolted. Sure, it was a gallop, but even on her wildest day she galloped thoughtfully. 

This time she just put her head down and hit her fastest gear, not looking where she was going but just running madly. It felt like I would never have hope of even slowing her, unless she crashed into something and fell down. Thankfully, that was not true and she did stop after a mile or so. But when I got off, she was shaking and dripping with sweat, and completely beside herself still.

Ha ha, I just accidentally typed "hit her fastest fear," but that might actually be the most accurate.


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## phantomhorse13

I used to break and train racehorses for a living.. galloping is addictive!

Now, however, I am older and am much pickier about the placements of my gallops (and what horse I am sitting upon).

I had a nice yeehaw on George today up the gas line and thought of all of you. My garmin said we only hit 21 mph, but considering it was up a decent hill and a real feel in the triple digits, it was plenty fast enough!


:racing:


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> I used to break and train racehorses for a living..


That's interesting. There is a fairly large Thoroughbred training facility just down the road from me. 

Home - Hidden Springs Ranch


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## gottatrot

> *What if I fall?
> Oh but my darling,
> what if you fly?* ~_Erin Hanson_



All the years of my childhood when I didn't have a horse, there was this constant gnawing that just never went away - the missing piece of me that I couldn't find. It was there - nothing that I had tried to create and it was something I knew I could not destroy, even though it was painful sometimes. At least I knew what it was, so it wasn't as though I was searching for an unknown. My childhood was great, and I was very happy. But I had to try to fill the horse shaped hole inside with everything except a horse.

I understand that other people don't need to have horses, and can take breaks from horses, but I can't. There are plenty of other things in life, and I think about many things, but the pathways of my neurons cross synapses that fire like this:









After surviving this lack of having a horse until I was 17, a woman I babysat for told me about how she had been into horses when she was younger. She still had her old horse on her parents' property. Shamrock was 28, an Arab/QH cross.

Something incredible happened, which was that the woman told me I could call Shamrock my own (she was still sound and ridable), and she would take care of any expenses. She still was nostalgic about her old horse, but didn't go see or spend time with her. 

Shamrock did not have the best conformation, but was a sweet and willing old mare. Honestly, she was the perfect first horse for me.









Shamrock and I spent a year together, and it was one of the happiest years of my life. I finished high school, had a couple low-key jobs, but spent most of the rest of my time out with Sham. My Dalmatian always came along. He loved Shamrock and it was in his nature to run with her as a friend rather than chase. 









Sham was kept on a huge property that had a river going through it, and probably 50 acres or so that we would ride around. The property owners would randomly put a few dozen cows on the land, so sometimes we'd have to weave through them. 

The woman I babysat for had an english saddle I could use, and I talked her into giving me a couple of lessons in exchange for babysitting, so she could teach me how to post. Once I could post well, I spent a lot of time in that little corral working on cantering bareback. So many times when we came around a corner, I'd slip to the side and fall off. Eventually I got better at it.

One day when the vet came out, he said "I have something you might be able to use." He brought me a bareback pad he'd found in an old barn, and most of the time I would throw on that bareback pad with a bosal, and off we'd go. 








Once the old man who owned the property came out and yelled at me, waving his gun. He was in his late 80s, and when he got close enough to see better he apologized. He hadn't seen that I was with the horse, so thought since I had my dog I was a hunter. 








After nearly a year with Shamrock, she ended up getting a melanoma under her tail. It was a malignant one, and grew and grew. The vet surgically removed it, but the site never healed and by Christmas Sham was acting listless, and getting sores from staying down too much. The woman who'd had her all those years did not want to let her go, but I convinced her it was time.

They trailered Sham's body out to a beautiful wooded property and buried her under a tree. We carved her name into the bark. 

After Shamrock died, I had depression for about three months. I was 18, but didn't know what I should study in college, and it seemed like being able to afford a horse again was a long way off. It was worse having a horse and then losing her, than it had been to not have ever had a horse at all. Eventually I was able to feel better and start to explore some possibilities for the future. 
It was about six years later I was finally settled in life enough to get Amore. I found this old photo of us at a schooling show. Apparently she was still bucking sometimes, since I had the martingale on.


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## SueC

That's a great story with Shamrock, except for the melanoma of course. Wow!  It's funny, what you have written has so many parallels to a rider portrait I am translating for my journal at the moment, who also grew up knowing she wanted to ride even though initially, nobody she knew had horses. I think you're going to meet your spiritual twin when I finish that translation! ;-) That lady's horsey inclinations ended up taking her all over the world, in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, to ride horses like the locals did wherever she went. She wrote it when she was nearly 60.

That's a 1000W smile you're sporting on Amore! She is looking asleep herself in that photo but that may just be a) camera timing or b) lulling you into a false sense of security! :rofl:


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## Knave

I really liked that story @gottatrot. What a kind woman and horse, and I am really sorry about how it ended. 

I always had horses, but I always knew I couldn’t live without them either. I can imagine what a hole that must have been.


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## Hondo

Oops. Clicked on the unsubscribe button. Gotta resubscribe.

While I'm here, wondering about the synapses photo, where you found it or if you created it. Very illustrative!


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## SueC

What'd be on _your_ synapse photo, @Hondo? and everyone?

inkunicorn:


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> What'd be on _your_ synapse photo, @Hondo? and everyone?
> 
> inkunicorn:


That could almost be a new thread starter.

Looking back over my life, it would likely be an abandon, lost, and barely visible old trail. Who were the people that made this? Why did they make it? Where does it go?

Try as I might, to shoot for pure perambulation with Hondo, which I do mostly achieve I think, that one fascination will just grab hold of me and not let go.

And old abandoned buildings.

There is one not far from me that was built the same year Arizona became a state. From the foundations it was 80 x 90 which probably included a porch. The fireplace had water pipes for hot water. There was a huge rock tank up a hill for water pressure. The water came from McCalister spring which I've not made it too yet but I'm getting close.

The people were said to have had a lot of money and one day after eight years just moved away. The house did not burn but was carted away piece by piece apparently.

For those that are still reading, here's the real intrigue. I found a large stone on the bottom of the fireplace that had been removed that was covering a large cavity. I think someone found their money or gold stash and murdered them. They are probably buried somewhere nearby.

The lady on an adjoining ranch who is 86 said her grandmother said they just moved away and no one ever heard from them again.

So I'll be talking to her again and ask if anyone actually saw them move or if they just disappeared.

I discovered this old site while working on, yep, my Minnihaha Trail.


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## SueC

Wooooo, @Hondo, that's spooky! :dance-smiley05: :hide: If you do find out more, please share! (And if you write a book about it, that would keep you in horse gear and twin tub washing machines for a loooong time! ;-))

Fascinating! You've got a sort of archaeology bent; and a wanting to know the story behind a historical thing. And a "where does this go?" interest. Really an acute general interest in the universe too. I vaguely gathered that you used to teach people - what were your subject areas?


PS: My own answer to that synapse question is too long to inflict on @gottatrot's journal, so I put it on my own! :rofl:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page74/#post1970584659


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, very interesting story.
I just found that photo on Google. :smile:

Will go and read @SueC's journal now. 
My DH has the wanderlust gene and dreamed of being a Marco Polo or Columbus. I love to travel, but wouldn't _have_ to do it. I understand that many people feel that same way about horses.


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## SueC

I love those old maps! 

Haha, a German word adopted into English, like Kindergarten (with a capital K in German, literally children's garden), Schadenfreude (delight in the damage to another, sort of in the sense of poetic justice rather than bloody-mindedness), Mensch (human), Übermensch (super-human, "superman"), Doppelgänger (body double, a twin of sorts who isn't your twin, bit like in identity theft), Poltergeist (literally rumble-ghost), Gestalt (shape). Very interesting how the German meanings of the word and the meanings now ascribed to them in the languages into which they have been adopted are often divergent.

Wanderlust means an inclination to wandering about. It's important to note than the German word Lust has nothing to do with the English one. "Lust" is inclination, amusement, enjoyment, zest, enthusiasm, tendency. It's not got any negative or particularly sexual connotations.

I've got a good dose of that gene, but because so much of my life was on the road, a more important concept to me since settling down on our little farm is the Danish concept of _hygge_! 

"Pronounced "hoo-ga," this Danish concept cannot be translated to one single word but encompasses a feeling of cozy contentment and well-being through enjoying the simple things in life. If you've ever enjoyed reading a book indoors on a rainy Sunday or a cup of hot cocoa on a snow day you've experienced _hygge_ without even knowing it. _Hygge_ is such an important part of being Danish that it is considered "a defining feature of our cultural identity and an integral part of the national DNA," according to Meik Wiking, the CEO of the Happiness Research Institute in Copenhagen. "In other words, what freedom is to Americans. . . _hygge_ is to Danes," Wiking says in his new book _The Little Book Of Hygge_, which comes out later this month in the U.S. This national obsession with all things cozy is credited as one of the reasons why Denmark is always at the top of the list of the world's happiest countries, despite their infamously miserable winters. Now the rest of the world is beginning to catch on to this wonderful way of life."


More at:



https://www.countryliving.com/life/...ngs-to-know-about-the-danish-lifestyle-trend/


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## SueC

...oh, and how _hygge_ is this?


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Haha. You nailed it. My mother used to tell me I had the wanderlust.

@SueC Too much comfort can be bad for you.


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## Zexious

@SueC - I think you've introduced me to my new favorite word!!
That first picture looks pretty much exactly like heaven--I can only hope she's got a book in her free hand, a dog curled up to the left of her feet, and a horse visible through the window.


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## Hondo

I have been slowly perambulating through Temple Grandin's Animals Make Us Human. At the outset she discusses how animal behavior, including our own, is being broken down to a handful of fundamental emotions. One of those is what is called the SEEKING emotion.

A reward is a reward she says, not because of what is recieved, but because of the anticipation exciting the seeking emotion. The seeking emotion seems to be particularly pleasurable.

And as in all things animal, various ones have varying amounts of this and that.

It is then, my speculation that I may have recieved and extra helping of the seeking emotion so that my synapses may have SEEKING imprinted upon it.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Too much comfort can be bad for you.


Tell that to the cat in that photo! :rofl:

Yes, true, comfort is best as a counterpoint to hard work and care, not as a permanent state, where it would turn your body and brain to custard...

:cheers:



Zexious said:


> @*SueC* - I think you've introduced me to my new favorite word!!
> That first picture looks pretty much exactly like heaven--I can only hope she's got a book in her free hand, a dog curled up to the left of her feet, and a horse visible through the window.


Ooooh yeah! Brilliant! :clap: :bowwdown: _Hygge_ can always be personalised, and you know what, _hyggelig_ is such a wonderful adjective! 

_Hygge_ and _tsundoku_ are my favourite new vocabulary additions of the last 12 months. The latter is a Japanese term referring to stacks of reading materials lying around, and that's a crucial aspect for my personal version of _hygge_ - which is also a great philosophy:










And a _hygge_ photo especially for you:


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> I have been slowly perambulating through Temple Grandin's Animals Make Us Human. At the outset she discusses how animal behavior, including our own, is being broken down to a handful of fundamental emotions. One of those is what is called the SEEKING emotion.
> 
> A reward is a reward she says, not because of what is recieved, but because of the anticipation exciting the seeking emotion. The seeking emotion seems to be particularly pleasurable.
> 
> And as in all things animal, various ones have varying amounts of this and that.
> 
> It is then, my speculation that I may have recieved and extra helping of the seeking emotion so that my synapses may have SEEKING imprinted upon it.


Now that's _my_ idea of heaven: Seeking _and_ hygge, sometimes separately, sometimes together (because you can get pretty hygge with a book!).


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## tinyliny

that Japanese word, 'tsundoku" refers not just just to having reading material piled up, but the sense of weight that it imparts on the person, who feels the obligation to 'get around to reading it, one of these days', and cannot part with the stuff, due to this obligation.


Another word I like from the Japanese is "WabiSabi". It refers to the stark and elegant beauty of intentional rusticity and imperfection.


We Westerners have something , not nearly as austere and calming, but similar in our "ShabbyChic", in that we uphold old, and nostalgic, as something that might bring back the sweet feelings of Grandma's house, or a summer week at the shore.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Yes, true, comfort is best as a counterpoint to hard work and care, not as a permanent state, where it would turn your body and brain to custard...


Yes, I think hygge must be best as an alternative state to exercise or travel. 
The book "The Lighter Side of Endurance Riding" is hilarious. The author said that sitting down felt so good after riding 25 miles that she decided to see how great it would feel to lay on the couch after 50 or 100 miles.  
I find that is true after a long hike or run as well.


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## knightrider

Love the direction of this discussion!

Speaking of synapses, I hope mine is on the passion side and not the obsession. Ever since I was a little kid, I've rather worried about the obsession part, almost fearing it because I knew it was destructive. I used to say if I could wave a fairy wand and get rid of my horse "passion" (hope it is only passion and not the dreaded "o" word), I would.

My image for the synapse would be little horses racing through my circulatory system. They are literally in my blood. Horse was the first word I learned to spell and the first animal I started to draw. My parents and family knew nothing about horses and were determined to squeeze it out of me. I was not allowed to say I wanted a horse. I was not allowed to want a horse. I just dug deep and got more determined that I WOULD have one, no matter what.

I remember being 9 years old and struggling with spelling. It was a Thursday night and I knew the spelling test would be the next day, and I just couldn't remember how to spell the words I would be tested on. The realization hit me that if I wanted a horse, I was going to have to have a responsible job. A waitress or hairdresser was probably not going to earn me enough money to afford a horse. I realized I was going to have to have a college degree to have a job that paid enough to have a horse, and to have a college degree, I was going to have to get good grades. I buckled down harder than ever. Whenever school learning got me down, I'd remind myself that it was my ticket to getting a horse.

Luckily for me, we lived where horses were available, and I was able to wear my parents down enough so that I got my first horse at age 12. Then in college, I feared the "o" word too much and decided it was time to grow up, lose the obsession, and give up horses. I sold my horse (with the promise that I could get him back again when he was no longer rideable, which I did, about 15 years later). I gave up riding. I was miserable, and within a year was trading riding for training horses to jump. And never looked back. Being a mom helped me be not quite so obsessed. My kids have always come first. But they do resent my passion, as does my husband. And sometimes I wish I could be a little more well rounded, worried that it is an addiction that is not good for me.

Once I was hanging out with a friend who was struggling with depression. She asked me if there was ever a time EVER when I did not feel better for being around horses. I thought long and hard and said, no, I don't think there was ever a time when horses didn't lift my mood. She said, "You have no idea how lucky you are."


----------



## SueC

tinyliny said:


> that Japanese word, 'tsundoku" refers not just just to having reading material piled up, but the sense of weight that it imparts on the person, who feels the obligation to 'get around to reading it, one of these days', and cannot part with the stuff, due to this obligation.


Yeah, it's great, isn't it?  How are your tsundoku going, @*tinyliny* ? Mine seem to keep getting taller, and in parallel, I keep getting more tabs on my browser rather than less! :rofl:




> Another word I like from the Japanese is "WabiSabi". It refers to the stark and elegant beauty of intentional rusticity and imperfection.


That's a great word, and it's so much like wasabi! :rofl: Let's put that wasabi on a wabi-sabi plate of sushi (the plate is wabi-sabi, not the sushi I hope :rofl. Anyway, I have Brett next to me saying, "You've got to add, to distinguish it from shabby chique etc, that it's really a philosophy, not just an aesthetic, about using things, and the wear and tear of that everyday use of cherished objects. But to read Wikipedia etc because that's just Brett's understanding of it and may be lacking in detail."

A friend and I used to have wasabi eating competitions in Sydney. Anyone here ever done that? It was intended to get us to clean up the wasabi provided with the sushi at the Japanese joints. We were rather wussy at first and used to leave some on the plate because of its rather volcanic sinus-cleaning effects, and that disconcerting sensation of vaporised glacial sulfuric acid in the airways.

But we were both of German extraction, and in Germany there is this idea that if you don't empty the breadbasket at the table, the weather will be miserable the next day, and it will all be your fault. So we felt bad about leaving wasabi, and started putting incrementally more on our sushi through the meal to get through it all. One of us would be putting a blob on a round, and showing it to the other, who'd then observe the effects this amount had on the eater, before putting a slightly bigger blob on their own round, and so forth. We laughed a lot whenever we could get our breaths back, and we ended up getting through our allocated wasabi, and what do you know, the next day was always nice and sunny! :rofl: (because that's Sydney, mostly, anyway!)

:rofl: Now Brett is screeching, "Correlation is not causation!! (But cows lying down does mean it is going to rain!)"

inkunicorn::blueunicorn:


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## weeedlady

SueC said:


> (But cows lying down does mean it is going to rain!)


Thank you @SueC for reminding me of this^^ My dad taught told me this when I was a little girl.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I think hygge must be best as an alternative state to exercise or travel.
> The book "The Lighter Side of Endurance Riding" is hilarious. The author said that sitting down felt so good after riding 25 miles that she decided to see how great it would feel to lay on the couch after 50 or 100 miles.


:rofl::dance-smiley05::clap::dance-smiley05::rofl:




> I find that is true after a long hike or run as well.


Yeah, we find that too! It's so true! You do a better hike/ride/whatever after a proper interval of good _hygge_, and then when you're exhausted and creaky and weatherbeaten, _hygge_ feels _especially_ fantastic! So to maximise your sense of well-being and the various benefits from both, you've got to alternate between the two effectively. It's just like in good music: Point and counterpoint. Lots of variety and exploration. The _space_ in the sound, that's important too. Estonian composer Arvo Pärt is great at that - and if you're going to play this in the background, make sure you have decent bass in your speakers (no tinny laptop or phone inbuilts) and turn it up _loud_! He really uses space and silence in music and does such extraordinary things with that.





 
Click the direct YouTube link if there is trouble playing it embedded.









PS: As I said on my own journal, this is, to me, the musical incarnation of standing barefoot in the middle of a massive, massive thunderstorm in some amazing desert landscape, and just looking at the light and feeling the sound in your bones and the raindrops on your skin and your hair standing on end.

Brett loves this too, but describes this as "raw nihilistic existential terror"!









A friend from Sydney couldn't stand this, said it was _completely_ depressing!


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## bsms

Maybe it is my age, or maybe it is the heat, but when I finish a run, I feel like this:


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Well, at least the metatarsals still look pretty intact on that one! ;-)


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## SueC

knightrider said:


> Speaking of synapses, I hope mine is on the passion side and not the obsession. Ever since I was a little kid, I've rather worried about the obsession part, almost fearing it because I knew it was destructive. I used to say if I could wave a fairy wand and get rid of my horse "passion" (hope it is only passion and not the dreaded "o" word), I would.


Looked at from the outside, @knightrider, after reading your lovely horse journal plus lots and lots of your posts all over the place on so many different topics, I would think it's a passion for you, not an obsession. Because you clearly care about other people - both in your posts and in what you chose to do with your life - teaching kids, trying to build bridges, getting enthused about MLK back in the day - and because it's clearly not your only interest! 




> My image for the synapse would be little horses racing through my circulatory system. They are literally in my blood. Horse was the first word I learned to spell and the first animal I started to draw. My parents and family knew nothing about horses and were determined to squeeze it out of me. I was not allowed to say I wanted a horse. I was not allowed to want a horse. I just dug deep and got more determined that I WOULD have one, no matter what.


You're further to the right than me on whatever shape statistical distribution horse passion takes, because I didn't get interested until I started hanging out with dairy cattle and circus ponies at around 7 years old and because they were there in the village I grew up in, and my friends were all hanging out with whatever animals they could find as well. I particularly liked dogs and large animals - cattle, horses - their size was actually really comforting to me as a child - the large size yet the fundamental gentleness of them. Here was something _big_ you didn't have to be scared of. That was a nice counterpoint to my parents - I was the youngest child in a violent family. These big animals were not violent. They were a wonderful adoptive family for me. I felt embraced by them, and safe in their presence. And they were bigger than my parents, and faster! 

Maybe you simply knew that about them somehow? It's often really hard to remember experiences before age 3 because we don't have verbal memories, just impression memories, feelings, imagery. But is there a chance you interacted with a large animal early on, say at a circus, or over the fence at a zoo? The vibes coming off these guys are very positive, and if you're starved of positive vibes in your birth family, it's quite common as a child to be especially drawn to animals.  So I'd think that's a very sane reaction, @knightrider, we all need to bond to safe and loving beings! 




> ...I was going to have to get good grades. I buckled down harder than ever. Whenever school learning got me down, I'd remind myself that it was my ticket to getting a horse.


And so you had a goal to work towards, how great is that, and something to really motivate you to do that! Horses actually improved your grades! :clap: That can't be a bad thing no matter what angle you view it from!

And congratulations on achieving that goal! :bowwdown: And getting very, very good at working with horses! All off your own back. 




> Luckily for me, we lived where horses were available, and I was able to wear my parents down enough so that I got my first horse at age 12. Then in college, I feared the "o" word too much and decided it was time to grow up, lose the obsession, and give up horses. I sold my horse (with the promise that I could get him back again when he was no longer rideable, which I did, about 15 years later). I gave up riding. I was miserable, and within a year was trading riding for training horses to jump. And never looked back. Being a mom helped me be not quite so obsessed. My kids have always come first. But they do resent my passion, as does my husband. And sometimes I wish I could be a little more well rounded, worried that it is an addiction that is not good for me.


I think it's probably the worrying about it that makes you uneasy, rather than your horse passion itself, which from what I've seen has been life-promoting for you, rather than life-destroying. Maybe somewhere inside there's still a little voice saying you don't deserve to be happy or to do something for yourself - and yet if a passion nourishes you, then it is good for you, and our souls need nourishing. And when we're properly nourished, we can be better people and more useful for others etc than if we starve ourselves because we don't feel we deserve proper nourishment. :hug: You deserve proper nourishment. And clearly the horses nourish you, and give you a lot of stimulation and exercise as well!




> Once I was hanging out with a friend who was struggling with depression. She asked me if there was ever a time EVER when I did not feel better for being around horses. I thought long and hard and said, no, I don't think there was ever a time when horses didn't lift my mood. She said, "You have no idea how lucky you are."


That's really sad. :sad: It would be so horrible if there wasn't anything in this world to make you feel better when you're going through a bad patch. Please give your friend a big :hug: from me and just say it's from a hippie sort of Australian! ;-) I've been really lucky to have always found things that made me feel better, even at the darkest times of my life when it was really tough - there was always hope and optimism somewhere, even if it was just a really tiny thing like a single star glittering in a dark sky. It would be so awful if all you could see was darkness. I think we all need to really look out for each other on this journey called life. Smiles help; then people will open up to you. There is so little warmth in modern society, and so much isolation, and we can all make such a huge, huge difference to other people. inkunicorn::blueunicorn:

Random acts of kindness are great too! 

And by the way, I really like how @gottatrot encourages us to be fully human when we're hanging out at her house!  Thanks a million!!!


----------



## gottatrot

This is more like how it feels here after a run:









I went on a six mile hike with my sister and brother this evening, and it was like this:








We said good thing we went in August, since it's the driest month of the year. I brought my dog pack so he could ride half the time - it gets tiring for him at age ten to go so far. It doesn't feel right to leave a dog behind even when they are getting a little old for a big hike.









I think @knightrider and I were born with a similar interest for horses, but I don't think I spend as much thought about it turning unhealthy. Honestly, I feel good about how controlled I am, knowing I could spend a lot more time and money. 

I remember once going riding with a woman who was borrowing someone else's horse. She was a stressed and anxious person, and she told me she would love to have her own horse so much, but God didn't want her to have one. I asked why, and she said because horses were a frivolous waste of her time and money, and she was supposed to do more important things. 

I told her that God _wanted_ me to have horses, and in fact I thought he probably made them especially for people like me.


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## SueC

mg: @*gottatrot* , that hiking trail looks exactly like the quagmire around our tank and shed just now, and you say it's the _driest_ month??? So, erm, in the wettest month, do you white-water raft down these trails or something??? :shock:

Lovely dog (look at that face, like a mogwai!!) and dog pack idea!  I quite agree. Dogs still want to walk when they get on a little.


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## Zexious

@gottatrot , that's how I look before the run has even begun xD!
Sadly, my running days are on hiatus in light of my stupid foot. As a mesomorph I was never particularly good at it anyway. I wasn't especially fast or adept at long distances, but it's something I'd like to get back if for no other reason than to say I can c:

That trail looks dreadful D; I can practically hear the squelching of boots from here, haha!
I used to think losing my muck boots to the mud was the funniest thing.

What's your pup's name? It's so sweet of you to bring him along, even if it means carrying him the bulk of the way. That's definitely the face of a happy dude c:

I'm a similar state of mind as you, when it comes to 'passion vs obsession'; I guess I hadn't really considered it until now. I believe in the value of indulgence.


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## gottatrot

Zexious said:


> As a mesomorph I was never particularly good at it anyway. I wasn't especially fast or adept at long distances, but it's something I'd like to get back if for no other reason than to say I can


My dog's name is Gilligan. 
Sorry about your foot. It seems to be catching...So many people on here have a foot problem right now. 
My sister and I say about running that we are proudly "above average." We come in above average in all our races. 
@SueC, I love that word "quagmire."
Part of the trail was a little drier, but all of it was misty and damp, I kept saying it was the haunted forest. The capes around here are great for hiking, but only in the summer. They trap the clouds and wetness. Same with the higher mountains. Anything with forest and valleys we avoid in the wintertime or we will be in a quagmire. 
You might spot my sister's little dog in this photo of the haunted forest.








The elevation gain was 1300 feet, not too bad. Honestly, I just turned 41 and I said it was no harder to do this hike than it was to do it at 16. We've done it dozens of times. You can tell the locals - tourists are wearing backpacks and carrying sticks. My brother carried his drink from taco bell with plastic lid and straw and wore jeans. None of us brought a coat or anything. Just rained a little. 
Still, on this fine day we only saw people within a half mile of the trail head on either side. 

I believe I've figured out how I can manage Hero's exercise. I've been experimenting...if I give him two days off it's too long and I can feel a little stiffness/hesitancy again. What seems to work well is a hard work one day, the next day off, and then a lighter work the third day. Back to a hard work the next day again. He's still on the Equioxx so I am hoping this will be true when he's off it too. 

In the last week we had a super hard work alone in deep sand, and no bucking. That day we had a couple big spooks, but it was kind of creepy out there. The ocean was in so far that there was no hard sand at all, and all the dry sand had been churned up by cars. For some reason the waves were really big, and what spooked us (yes, I spooked too) was this big cracking sound that came from the ocean, a rock hitting something.

The next hard work we went out with Nala, and did lots of cantering and trotting. Hero did do a little hoppy buck twice, but both times it was when Nala came cantering past him from behind. It felt like a flash back that maybe he thought he'd get stuck instead of being able to run off with her. Both times he straightened out and got right into the canter, and we went at a good pace for a long time. That day it was foggy and the tide was out so far that we were on the hard sand but couldn't see the ocean, it was that far away and the fog so dense. 
In my imagination we were on an early morning race track. 








Nala was being held back while I urged Hero on.

Today I went out alone, and there was no bucking, Hero was an angel. He is very brave about scary things, he just doesn't like being startled. We saw some crazy things that didn't spook him, like a truck pulling an RV trailer and jumping it through a puddle - I mean it was airborne. Two trucks passed us and then began to drag race, revving up loud but he trotted bravely on. 

On the way home he might have galloped. His canter got very big and fast, and I almost asked for it but we were coming up on some scary puddles to thread through, and his big excited feeling started feeling like he was maybe crossing over into scared. So instead I asked him if he was still OK with the reins, and he pulled into a nicely collected canter after one ask. Wow, what a good boy. He's funny, it's almost like he isn't sure if he wants to do it himself. If I say nah, he's like "Whew, I almost was going too fast." 

Hero does not have the boundless energy Halla did. He still makes me a little tired after a ride, because he's big and has a big motion. But I was giving him a loose rein almost this entire time, and he will rate up and down with suggestions from my body rather than needing incentive from the reins all the time like Halla did. I've been using woven reins that slide in my hands more, because he doesn't take advantage so far. 

Halla would feel the rein slip an inch and think "Aha," and go for it. For her, grippy reins were rather necessary. I remember one day she was extremely happy when I had slick leather reins in the rain - we were sweating for different reasons on that ride.


----------



## SueC

This thread has become stuck on page 226 for me for many hours, despite another post being in it that is not displaying. I want to see if posting again makes it un-stick somehow_...

Oooh! It worked! _:clap:

That's a lovely moody forest, @*gottatrot* . Very _Lord of the Rings_!

...those Arabian mares... :dance-smiley05:

Excellent that you got a pattern that's working for Hero. It's also a pattern often used for harness racing training: Pacework, speedwork, day off, pacework, speedwork, day off; so one in three days off and after the hard workout.


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## Knave

It was stuck for me too @SueC. I love the picture of the forest too.


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## Hondo

Stuck for everybody I reckon.....

@gottatrot I'm wondering in your reading if the prognosis is that Hero will eventually be normal and be able to do a 2 week vacation without backsliding.


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## SueC

Posting again makes the forum software re-index the thread, and unless it makes the same glitch twice in a row, it should then display. So confirms my now-awake IT oracle. :dance-smiley05:

So now we know how to fix it: Don't wait for it to unlock; make it go through the indexing procedure again by adding another post, and keep your fingers crossed it gets it right this time.  DIY without needing to involve the help desk, for next time this happens somewhere. :blueunicorn:


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> You can tell the locals - tourists are wearing backpacks and carrying sticks. My brother carried his drink from taco bell with plastic lid and straw and wore jeans.


Well I guess when he collapsed from exhaustion (or hypothermia?) and was reduced to crawling, he could have drug himself along with the straw. :rofl:


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> Well I guess when he collapsed from exhaustion (or hypothermia?) and was reduced to crawling, he could have drug himself along with the straw. :rofl:


Ha ha!!
@Hondo, I may not even experiment with trying two weeks without exercise for Hero...in the past I've just paid someone to lunge my horses three or four times a week when I've gone on vacation. I've read that horses with locking stifles can have issues again in the winter when they get out of shape, so I think we'll just avoid getting out of shape for awhile at least.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> so I think we'll just avoid getting out of shape for awhile at least


Sounds like one more good reason to go for a ride!

With the frequent rides up the trail I'm working on, Hondo's crest is almost gone and his dimple in his rump is almost gone.

And me? I'm back o my last buckle hole again after filling out from all that whole raw milk. But boy was it good!

So I guess when I get too old to ride I'll have to look around for someone to lunge Hondo.


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## Knave

Bones doesn’t do time off either. I can do one or two days, but that is really his max. He starts self-mutilating if I go any longer. When he’s not doing that he is still really odd. I have left him longer; I went on a cruise this summer for a week, and he managed to not eat himself while I was away. He was a little obsessive for a couple days when I got back...

It is hard with him because our climate is really wintry for about five months. I stick to it though. I think in the end I get as much out of it as he does. I start to feel a little quirky if I miss too.


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## SueC

You're thinking he's a rig, right, @*Knave* ? Proud cut? Does that mean he is too aggressive to run with other horses in the paddock?

@*Hondo* , what happened to your detachable cart project? ;-)


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> @*Hondo* , what happened to your detachable cart project? ;-)


With no negative reflection toward you intended for first making the suggestion, I have, after many thoughtful perambulates, decided that when I'm too old to ride, I'll be too old to be operating an unhinged wagon.

I'll just sit in my lawn chair with a thick bamboo blanket over me and watch Hondo proudly running in circles.

Like this lady..........


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## Knave

@SueC I keep him out with the geldings because it really helps. I tried keeping him alone and at 21 hours of continual self-mutilating I could no longer stand it. Some people thought I should leave him, but I do not believe in disciplining crazy. 

With the geldings he is happy. Pete will chase him around when he starts it, as long as I am
managing everything else well enough that stops him. It is just that after about two days of exercise Pete chasing him he doesn’t react to.


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## bsms

I guess my riding doesn't require much effort from my horses. Or maybe I'm lucky to have easy keepers. Cowboy & Trooper would pretty cheerfully live in their corrals for their remaining years without feeling a need to go out anywhere. Bandit wants to get out, but he only gets a little tense inside from lack of riding. 

I've concluded I'm going to need to teach him about going out alone because otherwise we won't get much riding in. My youngest is 20 and may be moving out soon. My DIL is looking at moving to California. My wife would probably be willing to ride once a week just to give me some company, but not much more than that. It's an argument for selling Bandit - UNLESS I can convince him going out solo is just as good as going out with company. I'd need to learn the same thing. I've never enjoyed solo trips out much, but it is the only way we're going to get it done. If not, I'll need to sell him just to be fair to him.


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## Knave

@bsms I think that as you gain confidence, and him too, you will enjoy alone rides just as much. I like both. When I am alone I watch the birds and the land and I can just breathe.


----------



## bsms

You may be right, @Knave. I used to take Mia out alone, but I often pushed her to go farther before her emotions could handle things. Then I'd be stuck on an excited horse who didn't want me to get off, 1/2-1 mile from home, wondering if I would ever get there! Bandit OTOH just sees little purpose to going out alone.

Yesterday was our first time out in the desert in a while (too much rain, although very badly needed). Cowboy & my DIL were with us. At one point, Bandit stalled out. The rains had washed some human garbage (why do humans insist on dumping garbage in the desert?) into a choke point and Bandit was nervous. I stopped him so he could look and asked for Cowboy to take the lead. 

But my DIL said Cowboy wasn't going anywhere. Not if Bandit wasn't willing! About that time, Bandit shook his head, snorted and stepped forward. It was almost as if he was saying, "_Blast it! Am I the only gelding here with any balls?_" :rofl: But he then strode past the debris, as if to set a good example for Cowboy. Bandit is always boldest when the other horse is getting scared. It might be he would have gone on anyways. He had a good look, and he knew I wasn't worried. But I think it is significant that as soon as Cowboy faltered, he buckled down and went to work. "_Gotta make a good show for the troops! Bad for morale otherwise..._" - best spoken in a stuffy English accent, preferably by someone with a lot of white whiskers.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> With no negative reflection toward you intended for first making the suggestion, I have, after many thoughtful perambulates, decided that when I'm too old to ride, I'll be too old to be operating an unhinged wagon.
> 
> I'll just sit in my lawn chair with a thick bamboo blanket over me and watch Hondo proudly running in circles.
> 
> Like this lady..........
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 966957


That's very _hyggelig_, @Hondo!


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## SueC

bsms said:


> (why do humans insist on dumping garbage in the desert?)


Sure sign of lead deficiency, @bsms! :evil:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> About that time, Bandit shook his head, snorted and stepped forward. It was almost as if he was saying, "_Blast it! Am I the only gelding here with any balls?_" :rofl: But he then strode past the debris, as if to set a good example for Cowboy. Bandit is always boldest when the other horse is getting scared. It might be he would have gone on anyways. He had a good look, and he knew I wasn't worried. But I think it is significant that as soon as Cowboy faltered, he buckled down and went to work. "_Gotta make a good show for the troops! Bad for morale otherwise..._" - best spoken in a stuffy English accent, preferably by someone with a lot of white whiskers.


So funny!

We went out with Nala today. I wore my GPS watch today to see what kind of pace I was managing with Hero. Something about the beach is that every ride is unique. Today there was some wet sand, but it was the kind you sink into a little. The tide was in pretty far, and there were a few people but not a lot of cars or kites or umbrellas.

I'm always trying to think of the big picture of the ride, to plan what will be best. Knowing the sand was a little tiring, I thought perhaps we should go down to the trail by the estuary but not go down it. There was some great practice for getting used to different kinds of obstacles on the sand, some foam, strange color and texture changes.

It's interesting feeling a horse learning to use his body over various terrain, experimenting with lengthening and shortening the stride, helping him find a good path. I love the beach for training - Hero is beginning to understand as Halla did that my steering is very helpful. Horses seem to appreciate help with deciding whether to go left or right, between tight spaces or over something at the trot and canter.

Just like with going over a jump, when cantering across changes in the sand you are aware a horse might dive away or stop, but keep that thought in a small corner of the mind while riding as though the horse will keep going on boldly. One of the lines where the dark, wet sand met with the light-colored, dry sand threw Hero for a moment. It was as though he believed the illusion that it was a drop (horses seem to see the lines in the sand as drops in elevation or cliffs), and then the change in texture to soft sand convinced him for a second that he was dropping. So he leaped to the side after "landing" and I lost my seat for a second.

I'm working on teaching him when I want him to stretch out, putting my reins down on his neck, versus when I want him to gather and go more carefully, when I lift my hands and give a little contact. 

Hero followed Nala very boldly most of the time, gathering courage from her sure strides. When we had to pass things that seemed concerning such as smoldering black logs, piles of brightly colored children shrieking, "Horses! Horses!" or people carrying lawn chairs, I would focus my gaze on Nala and will Hero to relax and follow her, and I'd feel him focus too. 

Once Nala's rider got slightly unseated because Nala "picked up the canter" which I put into quotes because her rider tells her not to canter and so Nala will just pick up one stride, which looks like she decided to canter up a rainbow into the sky:








Then the rider says to just walk, and Nala does. :smile: Meanwhile, the rider gets some elevation off the saddle because it happens out of nowhere.

Well, there was a dog dragging a leash with a lethargic owner..."Come back..." 
Hero stopped, the dog sniffed around his legs, which bored the dog because Nala was moving so he took off after Nala. Nala's rider decided to try running into the ocean waves, but the dog went right in too. Hero was fine with it until all the splashing with the horse and dog crashing in the waves - suddenly he saw an ocean wolf eating his friend. He lost it for a moment, but handily he often tries to _think_ while things are happening, which means the crazy Scooby Doo leg action slows down and I can hop off. Once I got off he did an impressive, in-hand, flat-backed capriole:








This was in response to seeing Nala gallop out of the sea with the dog fast on her heels, leash still dragging behind. They bolted off until specks in the distance, then Nala's rider circled back and they went round and round with Nala quite enjoying herself until after a few minutes the dog's tongue hit the sand and he decided perhaps he wasn't going to catch himself a horse. At which point they circled near enough for the owner to catch the dog's leash.

The TBs were calm (what I call calm) within two minutes. They certainly calm faster than most Arabs.

The ride was 6.2 miles, 1 hr., and Hero's fastest canter was 16.5 mph. He achieved three strides of gallop once when Nala was ahead, but then his hind legs got mixed up so he went back into canter. His canters were 12-16 mph, trots were 7-10 mph.


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## Dragoon

I was smiling reading your adventure, until you said he 'only achieved three strides of gallop' and went back to cantering. 

Why??
He's an OTTB. Galloping was his job for most of his life. Why does this sound so difficult for him, and is this normal?? Horses don't have control over all their gaits? 
Does this mean, if I ever got the chance to gallop my pony, he cannot? I realize I'll likely never get the chance, but its sad to know its an impossible dream...

I like how you described how Nala rebuked the horse chasing dog. By giving him a horse to chase! Until he didn't think it a good idea...

Where you ride sounds so great! Do you ever let the children see the horses? I get a kick out of the look of wonder on a kid's face...reminds me of me when I was little! And big.


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## knightrider

That picture of the feathery chestnut leaping up the rainbow is exactly what my daughter's young mare Windy does when we are getting close to home and we want her to walk. After the wild leap, then Windy starts bucking with a few rears in between. But she doesn't do it very often, and the more experience she gets, the less she does it.
@gottatrot, you were smart to get off, anticipating that capriole. I probably would have just sat there thinking I could handle it and then discovering that I couldn't. I love reading about your adventures and the pictures really add to the story.


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## SueC

Accidental double post.

Joke time: Two racehorses are discussing their new jockey. One of them remarks, "He really can't ride, you know!" The other replies, "Yes, but he flies so beautifully!"


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> It's interesting feeling a horse learning to use his body over various terrain, experimenting with lengthening and shortening the stride, helping him find a good path. I love the beach for training - Hero is beginning to understand as Halla did that my steering is very helpful. Horses seem to appreciate help with deciding whether to go left or right, between tight spaces or over something at the trot and canter.


Just thinking...maybe in part it's because they'd like to know which way your weight is going to go. It's easier if you both know which way you are going to go - for you and the horse - before you actually do it. This is the best shot at getting a well-balanced turning/other manoeuvre. inkunicorn::blueunicorn:


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> I was smiling reading your adventure, until you said he 'only achieved three strides of gallop' and went back to cantering.
> 
> Why??
> He's an OTTB. Galloping was his job for most of his life. Why does this sound so difficult for him, and is this normal?? Horses don't have control over all their gaits?
> Does this mean, if I ever got the chance to gallop my pony, he cannot? I realize I'll likely never get the chance, but its sad to know its an impossible dream...


I don't think you'll have much difficulty galloping - it's not hard for most horses. 

Here's how I imagine what happened with Hero:
He probably did not have any stifle issues until he was done with his racing. From what I've read, it often shows up after a horse has been very fit, and then is put in a stall for awhile. So let's say he got fit, galloped, then lost the fitness and his stifles started catching. 
At that point, he found out that his body didn't work right anymore, and began to avoid stretching his hind legs very much. With the canter, a horse can put down both hind legs almost simultaneously if they want. They can use both legs to push off and compensate with the front end.








At the gallop, a horse has to push off strongly with just one hind leg. 








When I started doing stretches with Hero, if I pulled his tail one way he had difficulty standing strongly on just one hind leg. I'm guessing when he tries to push with just one hind at the gallop, it still feels a little wobbly or he doesn't know if he can trust the muscles yet. So he goes back to putting his other hind down for support. 

He definitely is standing more strongly on the hind, and sometimes I see him standing on just one. 








Amore wears her fat like muscle. 









Yesterday I started lunging Hero over some poles and a very small jump. He did very well. Of course he did a couple that were way too high, and a couple that were too low and knocked his legs, but then he figured out how to do a nice little jump. 

Sometimes if you're galloping a horse for the first time it is a mental block for them. I've taken a few horses for their first gallop, and often it is hard for them to figure out what you want because they have always been encouraged to stay in a canter, even on a loose rein. Also many have been taught that if you urge them forward you want a bigger or more collected canter.

The way not to do it is take a group of horses that have galloped in a certain open area, and then just tag your horse along. If the others are going to get very excited, it will probably make your horse way too excited and scared.

There are several good ways to gallop a horse for the first time or two. One is to have a place with good footing that has an end at a certain point. Say up a fairly steep hill (needs to be long) that ends at a curve. Take the horse out alone or with a good buddy, and get him used to cantering up this hill on a few occasions so he knows where you plan to stop. Then ask him to gallop up the hill, and he'll be used to stopping when you ask even if he gets excited.

Another good way is to have another couple horses that are used to galloping and are used to doing a gallop that ends at a certain point, with riders who are in control. Have the other riders ease the horses into a gallop from the canter, with you following. Plan for the other riders to slow their horses a little earlier than usual, just in case your horse passes the others. 

I've had some horses give really huge, leaping canters because they couldn't believe I really meant for them to change gaits. Also, I've had a couple horses that had big adrenaline rushes so after the gallop was done they were shaky all over. But the gallop is really just a 4th gait the horse can learn to be ridden at, and can learn to be calm and rate their speed and steer, think and be quite manageable at.


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## Hondo

This journal is like an online course in equitation!! I rarely close without having learned something very useful.


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## Dragoon

What a fabulous explanation, thank you!
The pictures make it so easy to see the difference! I'm sure many reading will appreciate the info., as I've googled some galloping questions, and seen many people wondering the same thing. 

Hero has really lucked out getting such a savvy owner! The people that returned him to the adoption agency were probably just lacking knowledge, and misinterpreted his behaviours. I'm glad you're seeing progress with his rideability, and are patient while waiting for the horse he could be. I know you said you're attached and will accept whatever level of riding he can provide...but it must be hard to be the level of rider that you are and seeing other people get to gallop on the beach and not you. It's good that the beach is such a varied experience, so always lots to do and be entertained!

The only riding I get to do is the outdoor arena, and the much smaller indoor arena. We are on the outskirts of a city and no permission to ride on farmer's land. I dare not ride on the road, its paved, busy and has no shoulder. 
I have said for years, if I win the lottery, I want a racetrack! Somewhere where I'm not always going in a circle, lol. 
Or just a bigger! circle. 
I have been encouraging my pony to go fast down the longside of the outdoor arena. He canters quicker, and seems to be excited about it!

Your horses are looking very fit! Amore doesn't look fat at all. The different shades of bay are pretty. I'm so glad they get along, hopefully Amore doesn't pick on him too much. Its been my observation that all mares snip at geldings, even timid mares! And the boys just take it!


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> ...The different shades of bay are pretty. I'm so glad they get along, hopefully Amore doesn't pick on him too much. Its been my observation that all mares snip at geldings, even timid mares! And the boys just take it!


Hero is kind of a "mare" himself, so he can be bossy with the mares. I've seen him pin his ears and rush at Amore, but she kicks back as she runs away. There's never a mark on Nala, Amore or Hero, so it's all for show apparently. There's no clear horse that "wins" in their field. For example, Hero chases Amore from the gate at feeding time, but when I let him in her pen when she was eating, he didn't dare put his head near her feeder and stood alongside her just watching. Nala stays out of the fray, but I've seen her push in first if her owner has a carrot. It's almost like they all know each others' rights, such as the right to carrots from _your_ owner, and they respect them. :smile:

Nala's rider had a couple dressage lessons this week, it looked like they did great on video. Brave and Cass' rider has her horses out on beautiful camping trails. I went to the city between work days, and visited a tack store called Gallops. Got a new Myler bit, but they only had a loose ring in the mouthpiece I wanted (low, wide port). We'll see what Hero thinks about it.

I've been thinking about contact with the bit and reins - about what I practice versus other ways. My ideal is that if I have my reins short enough to where I am feeling the horse's mouth, then I want the pressure to be very minimal. Where I think I differ from some is that I believe it is fine to have that contact be intermittent.

That's because in my experience, if a person wants to have a feel on the bit, you either have to have a solid pressure that is less and more but still never lets the rein go slack, or else you have to allow the rein to go loose intermittently as the horse moves, if you want the bit contact to be super light, a "touch" only.

I don't care how wonderful your hands are, no one has reflexes good enough that they keep the pressure exactly the same on a horse that is moving, while you are also moving. The appearance of very still hands comes from more pressure, which stabilizes the hand. 

So the choice is: if you want very still hands, you either have a contact that touches the bit and then allows slack as the horse moves, or you have a heavier pressure on the bit that goes lighter and harder as the horse moves. I choose a rein that is slack and then touches the bit. That way the horse only has real pressure if he pushes his head forward suddenly, or something like that. Which hopefully if he trips or does a transition, I am ready and give more rein instead. 

Of course one option is to ride on a loose rein, and not worry about any of this. That is great when you can do it. I've just needed to have the ability to often also ride on a closer contact, because of doing many things where it was a safety issue. For example, Penny had often turned and darted off with green riders, and not knowing if she'd try this with me, I wanted to correct such an action right away.

Many times on the beach we'll come on things that might cause a horse to spook huge, and I've been on a loose rein when a horse decided to leave town and occasionally been toppled. It can help me react just a hair faster if my rein is shorter, and direct the movement enough that I can stay on most times. 

I agree that it can make a horse nervous if you shorten the reins, like "what is making the rider nervous?" But also you may need to give yourself every advantage with horses that can spook big and hard, and even though I can shorten my rein from a loose one very quickly, a lot can happen in that moment too. I've not found that my horses are more likely to spook when I shorten the reins and have that "touch" contact. 

The other day I had to pass fairly close by a bald eagle feeding on a rotten seal on the beach. I have seen eagles fly up and drop a chunk, so I was prepared for a huge wingspan coming over us and then maybe getting hit with "death," so I definitely had my reins to where I could take off in any direction. I had no idea what Hero would think about flying death bombs. None of that happened, but Hero was not terribly tense about it, regardless of my reins. 

It is easier when you are on a horse that will spook, and then naturally calm. If you are on a horse that spooks and then the calmness is gone for awhile, they're not going to spook and then stop if you just leave the reins loose. If you did that with Amore, she'd really panic because that meant she'd have to decide what to do about being scared, and she'd take off running for awhile. Into the bushes or wherever. I had to learn how to get her to stop running off, and to stay and become calm even if she was frightened. But also without getting her feeling trapped and claustrophobic, which is very counterproductive. 

Once a horse is more experienced and doesn't panic just because they spooked, then you have a lot more flexibility about how you handle the spook. But I feel safer making sure we're not going to bolt away, so I use my reins during a spook or potential one.


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## gottatrot

I honestly have no idea how many times I've fallen off horses. As they say in the medical lab about bacteria, TNTC (Too Numerous To Count). Well, today it happened again. 

Penny has kicked at other horses before, and today Nala's rider's BF rode her, and Penny decided it was a good day to bring this behavior up a couple notches. I was probably five feet away from her when she suddenly rushed Hero and backed up kicking at him. I think I fell off because I was standing up on one stirrup trying to stay well out of the way of the hooves, so as we danced around I went down. Not a problem, I kind of hopped/went down lightly. 

That wasn't the worst of it. We were almost home, and I was keeping a good distance from Penny. From ten feet away she spun and ran backwards at Hero. We were running away fast as she double barreled him, but were just getting out of range so the hooves touched his hindquarters but didn't leave a mark or contact hard. She was corrected (so BF said), but this needs to be corrected _hard_. Very dangerous habit to pick up. She's been turned out alone lately, so I wonder if this is making her social behavior worse. 

I tried out the new Myler snaffle. Ha ha. The ride was interesting in many ways. Although Hero isn't as determined as Halla, he did get excited at one point and then it was not great having so little bit in his mouth. He turned very well in it, so we did turn a lot. If I turned him, once he straightened he'd burst forward, so I'd turn again. Even trotting there was not a lot of incentive for him to slow down. Which is good that he's wanting to go sometimes, but this was difficult since we had to stay slow most of the ride for Penny's rider's sake. 

Probably I will use that bit in the arena and the Kimberwicke out in the open. The mouthpiece seemed right, so I think I have figured out what he likes - a wide, low ported bit without any breaks. He does great in the Kimberwicke, I just didn't know if he needed that little bit of leverage...well, yeah he does. Although he's not a fire-breathing dragon like Halla, he's still a tad hotter than the average horse and a big racehorse to boot. Still a little green, too, but doing wonderful in my book.


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## bsms

You need some southern Arizona trails for him. Find a place and let him run. 100 yards later, tell him to slow:

_"But I don't WANT to!"_

_"You ought to slow!"_

_"No! I don't....OW! OW! OW! Who put those rocks there? They HURT my feet!"_
​ _That's WHY I told you to slow down. But YOU wouldn't listen.._."​
Bandit's a pretty laid-back horse in many ways, but I think he'd go "Psycho Horse" the second time Penny came after him! I'd be tempted to get one of these:


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## Knave

Oh wow! I’d be so angry at the bf, which isn’t fair so then I’d be sorry. 

Riding Bones has taught me about other people and their mares. He is a rig, and mares think he’s quite a dandy. I agree, he’s very handsome and funny, but I got kicked in the thigh, luckily just barely, and almost kicked in the face twice because of it. I’ve also been peed on. Ick!

These were well behaved mares for the most part. When I decided to continue with Bones after I realized he was a rig my father scolded me, “I don’t care how good of control you have of him! Other people will not always have control of their mares.” I guess a guy on a very nice stud was holding a calf at a branding and a mare ran backwards and kicked him and broke the stud’s leg (or maybe the guy’s, I don’t remember).

Anyways, now I always watch other people’s horses. Like defensive driving... I feel it in Bones anyways, so there is a heads up. He won’t react, but his muscles tense when another horse is going to cause a problem. 

I hope the bf really got after Penny. She cannot do that! Maybe she really needs to be ridden by attentive riders for a while...


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Well, today it happened again.


Somehow, someway, I gotta figure a way to blame this on @gottatrot . I know it's her fault but I just don't know why.

I have not actually fallen off Hondo for 2 maybe 3 years. Well, today it happened again. Really!! I'm not making this up.

We were returning from the Connection Trail where the last bit of work was finished. Yea! Riding along a sandy trail, munching on the abundant native grasses, when all of a sudden, Hondo went on the biggest extended spook without actually running that he's ever done. Spin this way, that way, jump back, forward, bump up his back end a little, and finally I just got too far out of whack.

The first three the first year I had no recollection of what the heck happened. Today I was watching all or at least most of it. I learned one thing that I think is important. If it's a spook, it's too late for an emergency dismount and it's best to hold on to anything and everything available until the feet are on the ground.

That way there's not very far to fall!  I did fall down but I'm pretty sure my feet were on or almost on the ground first. I landed on my left shoulder and it's not sore at all....yet. No fresh dirt on my helmet.

Hondo was terrified, absolutely terrified of something on top of the 40 foot high bank we were riding adjacent to. It was obvious he was not going to settle anyways soon so I decided to go up a steep overgrown trail that was a bit behind us. Multiple lacerations on my arm from cat's claw. I just wanted to see what was up there and show him there was nothing to run from....but there may have been as there are cats in the area.

He has spooked slightly at noisy deer taking off uphill but he quickly recognizes the sound. He was still very nervous at the top which was open.

As I led him he began to settle a little and I remounted from a large boulder. Riding along the edge of the bank I found a really nice bulldozed old road up the bank. I'll be using that a lot so there was a benefit to the fall.

Just weird that it happened only hours after reading gottatrot's post.

By the time we got back he was grazing as normal like nothing ever happened.


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## Knave

Wow @Hondo! I’m sorry that happened! I hope your shoulder doesn’t get worse.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Somehow, someway, I gotta figure a way to blame this on @gottatrot . I know it's her fault but I just don't know why.
> 
> I have not actually fallen off Hondo for 2 maybe 3 years. Well, today it happened again. Really!! I'm not making this up.


Aww, no way!! I hope you didn't say "I haven't fallen off Hondo in a long time," out loud, because you know Murphy's law says that means it's going to happen.
I'm so not superstitious but I've seen that so many times...a coworker told me she had just paid the last payment on her car, then hit a deer on the way home. I distinctly remember telling someone Amore had never kicked another horse, and later that ride she kicked a horse. 

I hope you won't be sore. It's usually a good sign (and I'm quite experienced ) when you don't hurt at all right away. I went running with my sister right after our ride, and I'm so dense that as I was driving home I wondered why the side of my torso felt tight and I thought I did something on the run. Duh. Today the muscles on the right side of my body are a little sore but not bad. 

I agree that once there is a spook going on, you usually can't do an emergency dismount. Every time is different, so you just have to go with it. Judging by the amount of Hero's movement in the video, there doesn't seem to be a reason why I came off, but I think I was staying away from Penny rather than staying on my horse. Before I dropped, the camera view looks like I was quite far away from Hero. I remember focusing on Penny, which was probably a good thing. Far better to fall than to have your femur cracked by a hoof.

It sounds good to have short runs in the desert where the horse learns to listen to the rider because of the environmental limitations. It was more like that in the wooded trails around here. The beach is 16 miles long so you have to find other ways...:smile:


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## SueC

...ah, thought I recognised that voice! Depeche Mode! 


Welcome to the 2018 club, @*Hondo* , and congratulations on not breaking anything! :clap:


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## Hondo

Shoulder is still feeling fine. But I learned at 50YO it can take 2 or 3 days to show up. At 70 YO may take a day or two longer but everything feels fine. Thank goodness for Cooks bridle. If it'd had a bit I'd have cut his mouth open.

We were talking about dismounts, here? or somewhere. I've updated. Can't do gottatrot's method. I'm doing a sort of bareback dismount now and it's working really well for me. I kick both feet out of the stirrups at the same time but rather than leave my legs straight, the cantle is so tall on the saddle, I bend my knees almost 90 degrees with my chest on the pommel and almost pivot on the pommel as my leg goes over the saddle and straighten them on the way down.

Works good for me. I have only been dismounting on the off side because of my left knee. Now I can equally dismount on either side which is sometimes necessary.

I normally mount from the near side so I can hop with my good right leg. But dismounting with my left in the stirrup I can feel the knee bones crunching.

Man you just never know! Like lightening from nowhere without warning.


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## Knave

I don’t want to join your guy’s 2018 club! I’m with @gottatrot and a bit superstitious about saying things. On my 30th birthday I was flown to a hospital with a messed up back after my husband said “Don’t get bucked off.” 

When Bones was being quite... umm... noticeable at the cutting, a trainer I didn’t know, but very much enjoyed, rode up and said “Don’t get bucked off.” I turned around “Don’t say that!” Hahahaha. We did end up talking later, and like I said, he was very friendly and I liked talking to him.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> ...ah, thought I recognised that voice! Depeche Mode!


You know your music!! That was Depeche Mode - Enjoy the Silence and the second song was Four Non Blondes - What's up.


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## knightrider

So sorry about all the falls and glad there are no more serious injuries. I also do NOT want to join your club. Oh no, wait. I DID join it in February when somebody started shooting a very powerful loud gun behind the trees where I was riding. Isabeau spooked really big, unseated me, but I was hanging on OK. Then she spooked again . . . and again. On the 4th spook I came off. Luckily I fell off in a freshly plowed field, soft landing. I was pretty sore for a day or two. The worst part was riding home on her. I was hurting pretty bad then, and she was so wound up and jumping around nervously over everything.


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## tinyliny

Gosh, reading this is spooking me. It's been nearly 3 years since I came off, and I used to come off about 2 times a year. something's wrong.


Watching the beach riding bring to mind how different a person rides there, as compared to bsms's desert, or my thick, tall forested pathways. It really influences how you deal with a horse's emotional state.

@Hondo I hope you feel better soon. I am sure you will. you are strong and in good shape.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> It's been nearly 3 years since I came off, and I used to come off about 2 times a year. something's wrong.


Hope Murphy's not listening. He'd be glad to fix that::falloff:


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## tinyliny

lol!!! I'll have to see if I can't extend my extension of the odds. We ALL know it happens, . . . sooner or later..


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I've been thinking about contact with the bit and reins - about what I practice versus other ways. My ideal is that if I have my reins short enough to where I am feeling the horse's mouth, then I want the pressure to be very minimal. Where I think I differ from some is that I believe it is fine to have that contact be intermittent.
> 
> That's because in my experience, if a person wants to have a feel on the bit, you either have to have a solid pressure that is less and more but still never lets the rein go slack, or else you have to allow the rein to go loose intermittently as the horse moves, if you want the bit contact to be super light, a "touch" only.
> 
> I don't care how wonderful your hands are, no one has reflexes good enough that they keep the pressure exactly the same on a horse that is moving, while you are also moving. The appearance of very still hands comes from more pressure, which stabilizes the hand.
> 
> So the choice is: if you want very still hands, you either have a contact that touches the bit and then allows slack as the horse moves, or you have a heavier pressure on the bit that goes lighter and harder as the horse moves. I choose a rein that is slack and then touches the bit. That way the horse only has real pressure if he pushes his head forward suddenly, or something like that. Which hopefully if he trips or does a transition, I am ready and give more rein instead.
> 
> Of course one option is to ride on a loose rein, and not worry about any of this. That is great when you can do it. I've just needed to have the ability to often also ride on a closer contact, because of doing many things where it was a safety issue. For example, Penny had often turned and darted off with green riders, and not knowing if she'd try this with me, I wanted to correct such an action right away.
> 
> Many times on the beach we'll come on things that might cause a horse to spook huge, and I've been on a loose rein when a horse decided to leave town and occasionally been toppled. It can help me react just a hair faster if my rein is shorter, and direct the movement enough that I can stay on most times...



This was a great reflective post. :clap: And I agree with you about all the points you raised. I wonder - because that works for us - if it's because we ride horses of similar temperaments (the goey, clever ones), approach things empirically rather than by set ideas, and have similar philosophies about riding. The conclusions we have come to, separately and halfway across the globe, are so similar.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I wonder - because that works for us - if it's because we ride horses of similar temperaments (the goey, clever ones), approach things empirically rather than by set ideas, and have similar philosophies about riding. The conclusions we have come to, separately and halfway across the globe, are so similar.


Don't they say "great minds think alike?" :smile::smile::smile:

4 spooks in a row before falling off is pretty good riding, @knightrider!

I was worried about Hero a couple days ago. We went out on a ride alone, and he felt fine until we got a ways down the beach. After our first canter, he didn't seem to want to move out at all, and felt like he was tired. I started wondering about if he was starting to hurt since I don't have him on the Equioxx anymore, or if somehow Penny had kicked him hard enough to make him sore. I'd get him trotting, and he felt completely sound, but he'd want to drop back to a walk as soon as possible.

I'd been thinking of going farther, but turned around after two miles. Asked Hero to trot, and suddenly he was doing this big spanking trot! I asked him to canter and he was going fast, no hesitation all the way back. Uh huh. Apparently I have another horse like Amore. All sad reluctance going out, full of vim and vigor heading back home. :smile:

When I was trying to get Amore conditioned for endurance by herself I'd have to get off and run while trotting her out for three or four miles, then get on and ride home if I wanted her to keep any kind of pace going. From the ground I could keep her trotting, but not in the saddle. Eventually I was able to get people to come ride her with me and Halla, because Amore would always go fine if another horse was along.
Hero wasn't nearly as bad as Amore, however. He went out in a half hour, back in 15 minutes. Amore would ride out at about 3 mph and ride back at about 12 mph. Silly little horse. 
I'll have to change things up more for Hero, since it's summer I'm often turning north on the beach (less congestion), and he's starting to realize the pattern. It's perfectly natural to feel that if he doesn't go out as far, he'll go home quicker and back to eating and relaxing. Not too many horses are happy with just plain work itself, without a lot of variety. I always knew Halla was special that way.

There was a big wedding going on in the neighborhood we always ride through, at one of the big fancy houses on the hill. Many cars were parked along the road, and there was music playing, and a white sign with directions. I talked to Hero about all of this, and he went along. It was interesting to think about how different horses would react. I've found most TBs far more confident than most Arabs. I always thought Halla's temperament was a little more like a TB - she could act bold. 

But I thought about Hero, Halla and Amore. 
Hero's head was higher than normal, he was alert and watchful, and he walked with mild tension as he went through the area that looked so different from usual. Halla would have paused to look, then gone on, but would have had much more tension through her body, and most likely would have felt it necessary to jig-trot through, and any sudden noise would have made her spook in place. Amore would have frozen up, and it would have taken some doing to get her to move forward. Then she would have had nostrils flaring, eyes bulging, stared hard at every vehicle, startled five times and probably had two or three actual spooks. She might have even tried to just rush through at a fast trot.

When I was back on farm property, closing the gate, some kids came running out from the wedding, wanting to see the horse. Hero stood and put his nose up to the fence so they could poke their fingers through and touch his nose. Quite accommodating. The kids asked, "Does he bite?" Since I'm always too honest with kids, I said, "Not too bad." Well, he did contact me with teeth a couple times when we were getting to know one another. A few of the fingers drew back hastily. When I got back on and was riding away, one little girl asked, "How does he know where to go?" I thought that was funny. I guess to her it seemed like the horse was just walking away with no direction.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Don't they say "great minds think alike?" :smile::smile::smile:



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## gottatrot

This one is for the nerds. Nerd Alert!!!

I've thought of dressage as rewarding "purity" of gaits, and rhythm and tempo as integral parts of the training ladder. So I was interested to learn about DAP (Diagonal Advanced Placement) at the trot, and also about four beat canters in dressage, something I'd only associated with western pleasure. 

I was reading about this after noticing some of the top dressage horses did not have two beat trots, but rather had four beat trots. Apparently, this is considered a positive thing if the hind hoof is the one hitting first in the diagonal pair. 
This link explains:
Diagonal Advanced Placement DAP

I found a study that discusses why horses might use this strategy when moving - it seems to be about keeping the trunk stable. Perhaps changing the balance rearward disrupts the horse's normal balance that involves the balance of the weight of the gut and contents. 


> The empty tissue weight of the stomach, small intestine, and large, fiber-fermenting hindgut accounts for approximately 5% of the body weight of the mature horse. Considering that a fed (non-fasted) horse has a fluid capacity within the digestive system of nearly 50 gallons (190 liters), a much larger percentage of the horse’s body weight is associated with the digestive system.


190 liters weighs 190 kgs, so add that to 5% of the horse's body weight and you have quite a high percentage of the weight. Now shift that all rearward a bit, and the entire stabilization of that mass is affected. 
https://ker.com/equinews/weighty-subject-horses-digestive-tract/
It's helped me a lot to read some things that @bsms has posted about how much of what we are dealing with in horses relates to acceleration vs braking, hind end vs front end, plus balance. 



> The evidence presented suggests that at moderate speeds horses use dissociation to maintain trunk pitch stability by managing the COP (Center Of Pressure) location. This is likely due to body proportion differences but could also be influenced by the motor control strategy utilized by the individual animal. Both hind-first and fore-first dissociations may have mechanical advantages over synchronous contacts in certain circumstances. As trotting speed increases, forelimb vertical peak force increases and dissociations tend towards hind-first, principally to shift the COP caudally and control trunk pitching moments.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933092/

On to the four beat canter. 
In particular in this article, I thought it was interesting to review the videos of the horse called Don Juan. He has a distinctly four beat canter.
https://hoovesblog.com/2015/06/30/the-exceptional-gaits-of-modern-dressage-whats-natural-whats-not/

I've come around to believing most of what we see in upper level dressage is bred into the horses, and what remains is teaching the horse to do the particular figures. 

So what do you think of these four beat trot and canter gaits? My guess is that breeding for extreme movement will cause things like this to change dressage and its traditions even more in the future.


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## Knave

I don’t know what I think about it @gottatrot. Bones will four beat in his small slows. I sometimes scold him for it because it gets you in trouble showing reining, but since I’ve decided I likely won’t do much showing of him I don’t mind it much. It is very looked down upon in my circles.

I think a lot of horses naturally kind of pick up certain movements. It is funny to me, because I am not a dressage person, but I always struggled a bit with my spins on Bones. He does them, but they are simply slow and correct. I was working on this ‘get a horse to want to stay in the circle’ concept, but Bones was a bit confused on what I was asking for. Anyways, he went right to doing a pirouette. I was laughing because it was so easy and natural that he went there in his mind, while it’s taken so much to teach the spin.

I wanted to edit to add a thought. I think the four beat thing is a training thing, not a natural change. An overall style change with training for more thought process maybe... I am not sure I can explain what I’m thinking well. The style of horses winning competitions has changed too, which, in an effort to be more competitive and stylish we change what we are training for. I think the four beat is a side effect of that.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...I don't care how wonderful your hands are, no one has reflexes good enough that they keep the pressure exactly the same on a horse that is moving, while you are also moving. The appearance of very still hands comes from more pressure, which stabilizes the hand.
> 
> So the choice is: if you want very still hands, you either have a contact that touches the bit and then allows slack as the horse moves, or you have a heavier pressure on the bit that goes lighter and harder as the horse moves. I choose a rein that is slack and then touches the bit....
> 
> Of course one option is to ride on a loose rein, and not worry about any of this. That is great when you can do it. I've just needed to have the ability to often also ride on a closer contact... It can help me react just a hair faster if my rein is shorter, and direct the movement enough that I can stay on most times...


I agree that no one I've met rides with constant "soft contact" - where the backward pressure on the rein stays at an even 2-3 lbs. Everything I've seen indicates even professionals vary between 1-6 lbs of pressure. One lb of pressure is about what the weight of the reins cause. So if imperfect following means the horse is constantly feeling 1-6 lbs of pressure, then giving a cue will require something greater than 6 lbs of pressure - which is why on experienced dressage rider was using 8 lbs of pressure for a "half-halt"!

I also ride a horse who sometimes stumbles. His feet are softer than the others and he reacts more to stepping on a stone than my other horses have. If I tried to ride with "soft contact", those stumbles would jerk his mouth HARD!

But I also ride a horse who sometimes gets very nervous, who sometimes shoots sideways, and whose "spook mode" includes bring his head way up and back, creating an instant 12-18 inches of slack! On my last solo ride a couple of days ago, he did that. Walking along, and suddenly we're in a fast trot, his back rigid, his head back, and me holding at least 12 inches of extra rein! Not what I want!

That is part of why I like riding with one hand on the reins. With my other hand free, I can remove 12 inches of slack in a second. This is an old picture, but probably very much what we looked like on the trail:








​ 
Part of Bandit's beauty is that he doesn't loose his mind. Ever. Very unlike Mia. Always aware of his surroundings and his basic intelligence never leaps into the next state! Because I could trust him the other day, I just gave him a little slack again, talked to him, and 50 yards later we were walking again. Very different from Mia!

It is also why I like neck reining. Neck reining with one hand is as effective for steering Bandit as direct reining. Maybe not as precise - not as good for saying, move 4 inches over. But every bit as good for turning him 90 degrees when he's very upset.

So...my approach to allowing slack reins on a nervous horse has evolved to this: When he starts getting nervous, I move my rein hand about mid-way up his neck, and adjust the reins so he has a little "slack" in that position. It isn't very graceful looking. My arm is stretched out almost straight. But if he lifts his neck high suddenly, my reins are already adjusted. All I do is bring my hand back to where it normally is. Meanwhile, I can still steer him left or right. And if need be, I can grab the horn with my free hand, which helps keep my shoulders above my hips in a sideways jump or spin. If my hips stay on the horse, and my shoulders stay above my hips, I'm not coming off without some hard-core bucking.

All riding involves compromises. The cavalry taught it was a mortal sin to be "behind the horse". But being behind the horse can help on stay on when (not if, in MY world) one's horse spooks. So my horse will never jump the maximum fence he is capable of. That's fine with me. We don't jump intentionally. We aren't racing. If he works a LITTLE harder in exchange for me staying on better, so be it.

I've also noticed that if I give him lots of slack in a canter, we may be galloping! I think it may have been trained in him to give his best speed in a race when his rider gives him full slack at speed. If some contact keeps him at a steady canter, and that contact isn't flawlessly even...oh well! He doesn't complain. Not even in a curb bit.

Related: I've commented some on a thread about dropped nosebands: https://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/purpose-drop-nosebands-793751/

I've tried to understand how they might be useful. But I think the evidence is that MOST dropped nosebands are used to tie the horse's mouth shut so he cannot fight the bit, and that the vast majority of folks using a dropped noseband should either adjust it loose enough to be meaningless, or learn to find the right bit, or maybe - and no one likes to hear this! - stop abusing their horse's mouth with their overcontrolling hands!

I can see how a skilled rider might use one sometimes to help a horse. But in a survey of over 700 horses in international competition, nearly half were so tight that they couldn't get a gauge underneath it! Seems to me EVERY horse should be ridden first without one and allowed to object to the bit AND to the rider's hands. 

It goes back to Chamberlin's comments that trying to "collect" a horse for "brilliant" movement is, in most cases, like handing a monkey a razor! I'm 100% in favor of using contact for safety when riding some horses in the open. I'm also 100% convinced that my balance and my hands are above average compared to new riders, but that I have NO BUSINESS trying to shape my horse with a bit. I doubt more than 10% of good riders do. 

It also reinforces my belief that average riders should not try to imitate great riders. I like how Dujardin rode Valegro. But I'm not her, and Bandit isn't him, and what they could do together is no sign that Bandit & I should be trying to do the same! A little humility goes a long way. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hondo

Hondo actually goes out better than he returns. I theorize that this is because very often he finds me dismounted doing maintenance on a trail while he grazes on native browse not found in his pasture. Then on the return, he has learned that I'm usually quite accommodating to his request for that bunch of grass that for some reason appears or smells so much better than the others.

All this of course mostly at a walk. As far as finesse with the reins, I follow these lines from On Top Of My Hondo......._I point where his nose goes, he fills in the rest._


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It also reinforces my belief that average riders should not try to imitate great riders. I like how Dujardin rode Valegro. But I'm not her, and Bandit isn't him, and what they could do together is no sign that Bandit & I should be trying to do the same! A little humility goes a long way. :icon_rolleyes:


Good post.
I also think that just because you're good at _something_, it doesn't mean you're good at _everything_. 
For example, I have only briefly tried riding with spurs, I've seen horses with scars from spurs but also I've known some excellent riders that ride with spurs and appear to use them very well. Meaning, the spurs were not ever in use unless they meant them to be, and they used them rarely and judiciously (and gently) to make a cue very clear to the horse. I personally should not ride with spurs except maybe in the rarest of circumstances and probably not even then. I do not believe I am controlled enough to only use them when and with the exact pressure I mean to, and in the brief time I used them did not find them to be a tool that gave me something I could not do in another way that I was better at.

The horse life has been good this last week. Other life has been a little more challenging, with my DH's mom going into the ICU with life-threatening septic shock and now finally getting better. This added stress to my DH and caused a little decompensation, hopefully it will get better now. Funny thing was, we both went in tonight and got my MIL up to a chair, and the nurses said, "How did you do that? No one has been able to get her out of bed!" But my DH used to work in rehab and I'm infamous for getting people up while giving the other nurses a heart attack when they see me doing it. "Come on, it's just a coma!" Just kidding, but I'm almost that bad (but it's good for the patients).

Anyway, MIL went to the chair in spite of being convinced she couldn't do it. It's like training a horse, you focus on the body part and break the instructions down into tiny pieces. You don't say "Stand up and walk to the chair," you say "Move your right leg back one inch." If they don't get how to move the leg, you tap it with the riding crop. Just kidding, I don't really use a riding crop at the hospital. But it would come in handy.

I had a couple good rides on Hero, around the property once with him doing some nice cantering, and down the beach with him going out at a pretty good pace. No spooking or bucking at all. I'm not sure that he'll ever feel super strong in the hind, and maybe he does have a little early arthritis already. But he is functioning well. Tomorrow we are doing a ride with Penny (her owner riding), Buddy, Nala and Butch. Should be fun. Hopefully Nala and Hero can have a little time away from the slow pokes and meet back up. 

I was reading about elk because last night I had Amore and Hero in the outdoor arena and the elk were ranging all around it. The babies sounded so distressed, I thought, so wondered why. Apparently this is normal, the babies and mothers talk back and forth a lot. It just sounds pitiful. Here's what it sounds like:


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## Hondo

Well I thought they sounded cute

Good show on getting the MIL up and out of bed. My understanding is that muscle contraction and relaxation is the only pump the lymphatic circulatory system has. Need to keep that sewage system moving along.

I now have a basic understanding of septic shock and sepsis. Google is great! Even a large unabridged dictionary often doesn't have those kinds of terms.


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## Knave

I am sorry that happened for all of you. It is a good thing that you and your husband are so experienced. It still is awful though and I am still sorry. 

I like seeing our own weaknesses too! It makes us better to be able to admit them and avoid the problems they would create. I use spurs on all of my horses, but I’d like to think I am very light and use them more as a softness tool than anything. I am harder with just feet because I cannot be so... detailed? Lol, but maybe you get what I intend to say.

I try and avoid things I am not so good at if I have another method to achieve the result. It might drive some people crazy, why don’t you do this exercise?! Then they are on me and bothering me about it, but where they lack understanding is that I am not good at that exercise. Maybe I can’t quite feel where my release is, or maybe I don’t ride hard (aggressive hard) enough to accomplish it in a way someone else wants. Maybe I don’t like the down range it will have on something else. Either way, I usually have a reason. Now, it never is that I do not respect the exercise, but just that it might not work for me.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, exactly!

My MIL is going to a nursing home tomorrow, down the coast a ways but a nice drive. She may be able to go back to assisted living after several weeks. 

I've been starting to find out some complications that might arise from naming my horse Hero.

Yesterday everyone decided not to ride except Penny's owner, and as I was tacking up Hero we were delayed because an elderly lady wandered onto the property and obviously had dementia but escaped from somewhere. I had to call the police to figure out what to do with her, but before they could come another elderly lady drove up in a car and had the confused one hop in, then they drove off quickly. She must have been looking for her.

Next we went down to the beach and we had to stand for awhile so a few kids could gather around and pet Hero. He stands very still and doesn't seem to mind it. Far different from my Arabs that couldn't stand still for a second. We only got 100 yards when Penny's owner spotted a baby sea bird laying on shore, so we had to pick it up, wrap it in a shirt and try to carry it home. I discovered I could mount my horse from the ground while cradling a baby bird gently but it was quite a feat. Then I rode with one hand on a horse that doesn't neck rein, but it worked fine.

Meanwhile, I was thinking about Penny the entire time, because of her major kicking antics the last time we went out with her. I stayed behind her on the way back so I could watch her. Penny's owner has no idea what her sire was, and she looks like a giant, draft version of her QH mother. However, she has these wonderful hooves that look like mustang hooves, so I wonder if her sire was one of those drafty mustangs. 

Penny's personality is very much like most of the mustangs I've known. She is extremely smart and behaves very differently for each person. 
When I ride her she seems subservient. For Nala's BF and the Barn Girl, she's been sassy and independent. For her owner she is very good and doesn't try things. 

On the way back we met Buddy being ridden by his owner, and her daughter was walking along. The daughter helped transfer the baby bird from my saddle to Penny's, and it seemed things would be fine since the vet who runs the wildlife center is Butch's owner and she was at the barn. Unfortunately, Penny's rider said the bird that was looking bright and perky suddenly twitched and died just before she reached the barn. Too bad.

Hero and I went back out with Buddy for a little more riding. He had some good practice, first leaving Penny and going with a different horse, which made him a little anxious for a couple minutes. Then, since Buddy was going for a long ride but we had to head back, we practiced leaving the other horse one more time and going home alone. That went well until we got almost to the barn, and then Hero called out and someone answered. That got him very fretful, and he started hopping around so I got off and had him calm himself a little (which he can actually do) and then walked him home.

Tonight I was exercising Hero in the outdoor arena with Amore grazing nearby, and a baby elk wandered up all alone. By now I was getting tired of having to rescue everything, and asked Hero if this was going to be his thing, attracting lost and needy humans and animals to his vicinity. It was getting dark and I didn't know what to do about the elk. It didn't seem like I could catch it and put it in a stall without scaring it to death. The herds roam back and forth across the area continuously, so I hope one comes across him tonight and accepts him in. He was a bit older, maybe three months old. 

I've been trying to work Hero in his hoof boots now that he's not kicking and bucking, and I'm not worried about them coming off. They seem to make him pick up his hind legs more. I am noticing that he does not work with as much enthusiasm as he did when on the Equioxx, so I am suspecting he has some arthritis already at 10. Sad, but I have read that some TBs get it as young as 5. I'm going to ask the vet if she thinks he could or should be on something long term. 








The chick we found was a common murre. They have been washing off the rocks this week for some reason, we heard.


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## gottatrot

So I totally forgot in the last post to say what I logged in for! That's what happens when you're long-winded.

Anyway, I've been reading a lot about horse trailers and I'm planning to get one in the next several months. My first ever. I made a thread on here asking for advice recently. Nala's rider has been talking about getting one too, because she has bought a property with 14 acres. They plan to build a house and barn so they can have Nala and another horse they plan to find for her BF there. 

Two days ago, Nala's rider bought a trailer and truck! This is great for me for a few reasons. She bought a tall straight load, so now I can take Hero in it and see if this is the type I want to get also. I have no idea how he loads or rides, and it will be great to see if he likes this type of trailer, since it is what I was also considering.
Now I will also have the option over the winter of taking Hero for some arena rides, when the weather is bad. I'd also like to try him on some wooded trails. All of these were reasons why I wanted a trailer soon, but as Nala's riding buddy I can do some of these things even before getting my own.


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## Hondo

I'd say attracting those those in need of help is indeed heroic!

Good deal on the trailer. If it works out maybe you can just rent it in the future.

I've considered putting Hondo on Glucosamine and Chondrotin with other ingredients because it works so well for me. Most manufacturers recommend a double or triple dose at first, otherwise it can take quite a while to build up and be effective. When my knees got really really bad when I was at the dairy, I took quadruple doses for about 1 month and am now finally back down to 1 daily dose.

For me, the stuff just works.

Another thing I've learned is that sitting around too much seems to cause joint soreness. Theory is that moving stimulates joint lubrication. When sitting too long the lubrication gets low enough to cause more discomfort.

Surprisingly, about a week ago I hiked about five miles RT up my new trail and back. I'm very careful how I walk in the rough stuff now. My knees were far better than usual for over a week after that. I figured I'd be getting up at night and popping a couple of ibuprofen but I didn't. But I will use it when needed.

I'm just a strong believer in preventing the pain as far as possible rather than masking it. I try to adhere to the notion that pain is our friend to an extent and if we mask it, we may do stuff we should not. If the pain is prevented by the stimulation of lubrication, then we can do stuff without damage.

As always IMO, FWIW, YMMV

A cartoon image popped into my head when you mentioned a quirt might come in handy in some of your work at the hospital.

There was a nurse in the background wearing spurs and carrying a quirt. One patient in the foreground said to another, "Watch out for the nurse with the spurs and quirt".


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I'm just a strong believer in preventing the pain as far as possible rather than masking it. I try to adhere to the notion that pain is our friend to an extent and if we mask it, we may do stuff we should not. If the pain is prevented by the stimulation of lubrication, then we can do stuff without damage.
> 
> A cartoon image popped into my head when you mentioned a quirt might come in handy in some of your work at the hospital.
> 
> There was a nurse in the background wearing spurs and carrying a quirt. One patient in the foreground said to another, "Watch out for the nurse with the spurs and quirt".


I agree maybe it's better in early stages to not give/take pain medication and instead let the pain limit things to prevent damage. Good point.
Funny about the cartoon!

Very exciting day today, had Hero out for his first trip in a trailer with me. I wasn't sure how he would load but it was quite funny, he almost loaded himself while I was putting his hay inside. 
(Music DMZ - TV on the Radio)





Nala's rider drove us about 15 minutes over to the state park and we used the trails the Oregon Equestrian Trails group have made, which were very nice. 

After about an hour and a half, we ended up on the beach for a short bit. The dune onto the beach was very high and extremely steep, without a doubt the steepest thing Hero has ever gone down. He thought about getting nervous halfway down, but made it fine. 

It didn't occur to me to think about the Horse Forum wisdom which says, "If a horse has trouble loading, it's an unloading problem." Hero had no issue loading, but Nala's trailer has a ramp which neither horse was used to. Nala got off OK, but Hero got completely stuck when he put his foot back and felt the ramp. In the end I let him turn around, even though that was a little tight. Thankfully the straight load divider moves to the side like a slant load divider. He turned again when we got home, but then I practiced backing on the ramp a couple times so hopefully he'll get it next time.

What great trail horses those OTTBs were! They did everything we asked, went out willingly and were still going strong at the end although Nala was going a lot stronger than Hero. 




(Music: Still Corners - The Trip).


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## Dwarf

What a beautiful trail to ride! It looks so peaceful.


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## gottatrot

Some pictures from yesterday:


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## tinyliny

when you're out there, make enough noise to scare off bears before you get too close. I've forgotten, when out hiking too silently, and came around a corner and surprised a fat black bear. This was out by the coast, too.


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## SueC

I guess they're not this kind of bear...


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## Dragoon

Love the blue helmet! Where'd you get matching blue reins? You two make a snazzy picture! Looks good with him being so dark bay.

Congrats on making a crazy OTTB such an enjoyable trail companion!


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## Dragoon

Haha,, had to add...he went from a Radiant Rascal to a radiant Hero!


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> Love the blue helmet! Where'd you get matching blue reins? You two make a snazzy picture! Looks good with him being so dark bay.
> 
> Congrats on making a crazy OTTB such an enjoyable trail companion!


Aw, thanks! I tried burgandy but he is so dark, no white at all, I thought he looked better in bright colors. I got some leather paint and painted the white parts of a padded dressage bridle. Then used the paint on my endurance reins. They do come in blue, but mine were hunter green since they were Halla's.








@tinyliny, the black bears really stay up high on the mountains here. I am not sure why, but in Washington they seem to go down to the coast more. Especially on the Long Beach peninsula there are a lot of bears, I almost hit one with my car once there. My friend saw one on the mountain last year, and it made warning sounds at her because it had cubs nearby.

I just ordered some Easyshoe Sport shoes to try - I'm going to attempt to glue them onto Hero's hind hooves. 
I've been concerned, not sure what to do about the wear on his hooves. Even though the toe dragging is better, he is exercising more and the front of his hind hooves is worn down to the white line, halfway up the toe. One touch down on asphalt and a good bit of wall scrapes off. I've thought about temporarily putting shoes on, but I don't think he has enough wall to nail or screw to. I've read a lot about it, and it's definitely not an issue of "toe appears short but actually is stretched." He actually has worn down to a short toe on the hinds. 

My plan is to glue the shoes on, then try to add a bit of material to the front with the Adhere hoof adhesive that is used to put the shoes on. That way if he does drag, hopefully he will only remove the adhesive rather than more hoof wall. I'm giving him a hoof supplement with a lot of biotin, but it can take months to grow a good wall, and meanwhile he's wearing his off.
The fronts are doing better than they were several months ago, so really just the hinds need assistance.


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## Hondo

I have to ask, why not boots on the hinds?


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, do you mean glue on boots? I'm using boots for rides, but the wear is still happening the rest of the time. 
From what I've read, the glue on boots are not good for extended periods, because they cover the frog and sole, and I envision the frog rotting away. I have the therapy boots (Clouds) which I could put on, but my opinion is that they are more for horses that are not moving/sore rather than promoting good movement in a younger, well horse (big, clunky). 
So I'm wanting something that can stay on all the time to keep the hoof wall intact as it grows out, and yet will keep the horse moving somewhat normally. Also keeping the frog healthy. Another option would be to cast around just the hoof wall...


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## Hondo

I wouldn't do glue on boots either. I didn't understand that the problem was happening on turnout.

If the glue on shoes do not work well, a light bulb just went off. What about trimming or opening up a glue on boot? Leave maybe a little more than a shoe would have to spread part of the weight on the sole, but remove enough so there would be no chance of inviting infection.

Haven't heard of this being done, but with the boot running up the front of the hoof, that would provide protection in the area needed.

Or maybe even just take the entire bottom and just glue on outer shell.

Or, (aren't i just full of suggestions, Vettec makes a product for hoof wall repair. Maybe that could be used just to build up the front where it is wearing. 

Just throwing stuff out.............


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## Knave

I was reading it not understanding either. That is a frustrating dilemma. I have a feeling about shoes. Everyone around here always shoed until me. I have sorted out two difficult problems by not using shoes.

However, I still think shoes have their place. I want to feel about it like the cowboy I bought General from once upon a time. He was a heck of a horseman, in an older fashion, yet he rode everything barefoot. Here or there would be a horse with a single shoe or maybe even a complete set.

I always felt that he looked at shoes like solutions. Bandaids to a problem, so to speak. I took shoes off of Bones to solve a problem, and it worked. If you could grow out enough length to shoe his hinds, maybe that solves his problem...


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Or maybe even just take the entire bottom and just glue on outer shell.
> 
> Or, (aren't i just full of suggestions, Vettec makes a product for hoof wall repair. Maybe that could be used just to build up the front where it is wearing.


That just might be genius. I am thinking about trying to just glue a Renegade shell around the hoof wall. I could cut the bottom off. 

I'm not against shoes when necessary, and have considered that the weight of shoes on the hinds might be therapeutic for a horse with stifles that lock. However, from the days when I did shoe the horses I know there's not enough hoof wall to put shoes on. One hind lost a chunk of the lateral wall recently. 
I'm thinking if I glued this shell around the wall, I could still put boots over it for rides. It should protect the part that gets worn.


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## Hondo

I was thinking about this today. I've watched videos of the easycare glue on shoes. They have a dam or what not to prevent the adhesive from getting on the sole as that could sore them.

I'm thinking that some kind of release might be used, maybe even wax on the sole so the adhesive didn't stick. Without gluing the bottom to the hoof wall, if the center was trimmed out I'm afraid it would just distort at the edges and rip the part off the wall.

But if you're talking about just taking the entire bottom off, then the above doesn't matter. I just wasn't sure if the bottom of the toe at roll over was a problem also or just the wall above the rollover. If the roll over is no problem, then yeah, I'd go for just doing the top.

But don't dismiss the idea of just building up the front with vettec. They use the repair stuff to repair hoof walls that can't be shod and then place shoes on them as normal.

By just adding vettec repair stuff, the area could be limited to only the part that wears and leave more of the wall to air. I read some advertisement on easycare saying their method on something or other left more hoof wall exposed to air which they seemed to think was important.


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## SueC

I just wanted to make a somewhat belated comment about the new blue gear! I think it looks wonderful on this dark horse of yours. And yes, the helmet is like the icing on the cake. No wonder you had a Christmas experience the other day!


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## gottatrot

Tonight DH helped me cut off the rim from a pair of Renegade Glue-Ons. While sawing through the shells, I was thinking I am like @Hondo, buying things to cut them up for experiments. 

I'm hoping to glue them on tomorrow, so I'll try to take pictures of the hooves and process in case it works well and maybe helps someone else with their toe dragging. The vettec gun, glue and supplies all added up to a bit of $$, so I may have to go into business. It's possible Hero might need this solution done again a time or two or more, and if it helps his hooves it will be worth it. Maybe I can think of some material from the hardware store I could glue on instead of cutting up boots the next time.

The good news is that Hero's front hooves are looking the healthiest they've been yet. And the hinds' only real problem is getting backed up too far in the toe from the dragging. His dragging was far worse initially, but he didn't move as much then, even in the field, so now he is moving a lot more so dragging less but wearing more. I've been using the Renegade boots for rides to help with that part of it.

Had a great ride today with Nala, and we did half of it with Cass and Brave too. Nala's rider was probably glad I didn't fall off, because yesterday she trailered to meet up with a rider who fell off and went to the hospital (horse spooked at tire tracks in the sand), so there was a lot of waiting around for someone to pick up the other rider's horse, truck and trailer. The other rider was worried she dislocated her shoulder but it was just strained.

The barn dog came down to the beach with us, and kept rustling through the tall grass where the horses couldn't see him, and then appearing in numerous unexpected places. So Hero hopped and spooked about 4 times before we even got onto the beach. Then we had a narrow strip of hard sand that was littered with seaweed piles, so between dodging waves and spooking at the seaweed, plus a hard stop, I was flying by the seat of my pants a little. 

Then we met up with Cass' rider, who was ponying Brave. Hero got a little excited when we all trotted together, I think he'd forgotten what Cass' flashy action meant and thought we were all taking off. At one point we passed a big party of people, and Nala cantered around in front of the other two horses, where Hero couldn't see her. He stared at the people, panicked and bucked, so I hollered and asked for her to hold up. Once we rejoined Nala he was fine. 

Cass' rider had to go back, so turned her horses around while we continued on, taking Nala and Hero for a long canter around to the estuary. We then did the sandy trail, and it was the first time since his tendons stopped catching that Hero did it without getting very anxious. We ended up doing a lot of long trotting on the way home, and it was a great workout for the horses. No spooking on the way back, Hero was quite settled once his energy was down a bit.

Still not a beginner horse, LOL.


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## Hondo

RE: buying things to cut them up for experiments. 

Comment: Hey, somebody has to do it otherwise we'd all still be living in caves picking our teeth with broken pieces of bone

RE: The vettec gun, glue and supplies all added up to a bit of $$

Comment: Oh yes. I have the gun and two types of Vettec in the frig. Hope it works out. Drying the hoof with a hairdryer or heat gun seems to be of paramount importance as is fine rasping the area to be glued and not touching it afterwards. I'm sure you've watched the movies.

RE: He stared at the people, panicked and bucked

Comment: You say that so casually!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> RE: The vettec gun, glue and supplies all added up to a bit of $$
> 
> Comment: Oh yes. I have the gun and two types of Vettec in the frig. Hope it works out. Drying the hoof with a hairdryer or heat gun seems to be of paramount importance as is fine rasping the area to be glued and not touching it afterwards. I'm sure you've watched the movies.


I didn't know I am supposed to keep the Vettec in the fridge. Good to know. 

I watched the videos about ten times, and did my first attempt today. You will see in the photos why I felt something needed to be done, with the white line showing in the toe. 
I wasn't sure how hard it would be to get the hoof surface rough with the side of the rasp, but that was easy.

It seemed to go well. Hero wanted to pick up his feet when he felt the air blowing around his pasterns from the heat gun, but got used to it. Another issue was that I only had three mixing tips, and could have used one more. I used one for each hoof, but afterward needed to fill in the gaps on the underside with glue where the shell gapped due to the weird hoof shape. Then I had a loose flap, but with no more tips I just cut it off. 

I've been trimming Hero for about ten months, but until I owned him I was very conservative. He had big flares in all hooves, and all four were medial/laterally imbalanced. His bars were grown over the soles, and the soles were pretty unhealthy. Once I owned him, I put him right on a high biotin hoof supplement, and began really working on the issues. So there is still a little flare on the hinds but it seems to be growing out well. I am really hoping as he gets stronger and the hooves grow out well everything will get better. It's tricky because poor movement makes poor hoof growth, which makes imbalanced hooves that make the poor movement worse. I think you really have to address all of it - nutrition (muscle function and hoof growth), strengthening and hoof trimming in order to see improvement.

Here's my attempt:


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Yikes! Yes, I see the need for some protection absolutely. Hope it sticks well and stays put. Have you tried the boots over the top yet? His feet look pretty healthy from the bottom to me.

I read somewhere about the life span of the Vettec on their site and it was increased by keeping it in the frig. If a person is using it a lot, no need. Mine has been in there over a year.

Yep, always in need of just one more tip. I guess that's why they sell them by the dozen.

Did you find it difficult to waste the first bit of the precious glue out of the tip?


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## SueC

You could theoretically drill a little hole and blow it out backwards, no, @Hondo? :rofl: Though I have to admit I've never done that with my silicone cartridges... there I've just poked in sticks to get the remainder out...


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> You could theoretically drill a little hole and blow it out backwards, no, @Hondo? :rofl: Though I have to admit I've never done that with my silicone cartridges... there I've just poked in sticks to get the remainder out...


The Vettec is a two part epoxy that is mixed via mixing nozzles on the way out. Because one of the two tubes entering the mixing nozzle may enter slightly prior to the other, the recommendation is to waste the first portion leaving the nozzle in case there are not equal parts.

Mixing nozzles are a good deal. The epoxy is fully mixed upon exit. The nozzles can only be used once as the epoxy sets up internally after use.


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## SueC

Ah!  Well, then you might have to discover another use for the spare bits...


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## Knave

You did an amazing job @gottatrot!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Did you find it difficult to waste the first bit of the precious glue out of the tip?


Yes, but mostly because it is so messy!

Thanks, @Knave.

However, as my grandpa used to always say (from Shakespeare)..."Love's labor lost."
My shells were off the hoof already today. They apparently made it overnight, but came off in the big field. 

The good news is that the glue was almost all still on the hoof. What I'm thinking now is that I can just try to use the glue itself to keep the front of the hoof built up. Then keep booting for rides. I've seen videos where they've used the glue for hoof crack repairs and even for temporary shoes.

If that doesn't work, my next thought is to try turnout boots on the hinds, taking them off once a day like I did with Halla when she had laminitis.

I tried riding Hero today in the outdoor arena with my flower hackamore. 








It didn't work for Halla, she needed more so I used an english hackamore on her when I went bitless. Hero seemed to steer really well in it, and he has no "go" in the arena so I will have to take him out in it to see what happens when he gets more excited. I would have tried taking him into the field, but the cheek pieces were a little too long on the bridle I was using, and it was hanging a bit low on his nose. It took him about 5 seconds to figure out he could eat easily in the hackamore, so I sat on him grazing for awhile. Amore was with us too so we hung out together.


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## Hondo

Well that was a major bummer! Since they are used in endurance races there must be some explanation. I wonder if the inside of the boot got oil on it from the hands? Was it freshly sanded just prior to installation? They mention a mechanical bond but don't go into it much. The glue is not really a glue as we think if it. It's not chemical like most glues. It doesn't really "bond" to either surface. It just sort of "hangs on" to the little nooks and crannys that we create. The plastic shuns all chemicals and consequently there is no glue as is normally thought of that will glue it.

Also, with the bottom on, there should be a lot of pressure holding it in place. With that gone, some strong wraps of duct tape might be in order until the adhere cures. The tiniest movement prior to curing will destroy the fragile adhesion.

The Vettec adhesion experts use a moisture meter and a heat gun. I've read about a lot of failures by people in their first tries. You are in company. Myself included.

But all said, for the price of a $1 nozzle, the front of the hoof should be able to be quickly and conveniently touched up at any time.


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## Hondo

Still thinking.......

Depending on how the Vettec holds up on the toe, if you become inspired to try attaching the shells again, here's some thoughts about what I'd try. Thoughts only here.

First, re-sand the inside of the shells being careful not to touch the inside with the hands or use latex type gloves. Then wash the inside of the shell with denatured alcohol. 

After the alcohol is thoroughly dry, apply a enough Adhere to be able spread with a utinsel of some sort to form a thin layer on the inside. The utensil should be cleaned with denatured alcohol also.

Then allow the Adhere maybe double time for drying.

Then reapply glue on the shell and to the glue on the hoof. The Adhere will form an actual chemical bond with itself so just the normal precautions used with any glue is all that would be required with this step.

Using this method, I would expect it to stay on. I'd still use some duct tape to hold it securely in place until dried and without the horse applying any pressure on the shell prior to drying.

FWIW


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Depending on how the Vettec holds up on the toe, if you become inspired to try attaching the shells again, here's some thoughts about what I'd try...


Thanks for all the info and tips. Yes, I was prepared to potentially fail because I was trying something different from the usual, with just the shells around the toe. I am wondering if maybe I sanded inside the shells too much, trying to make sure they were rough. I think I followed everything else, using gloves, alcohol, heat gun, applied the Adhere with a tongue blade, etc. 
A couple things I was thinking about - one is that Hero does rub his hind hooves together sometimes, so maybe I should have trimmed the sides much shorter - so they didn't wrap as far back. He could have peeled off the inside by scraping them against each other. 
The nice thing is that with just the glue, the Renegade boots still fit very well. I think I will try just the glue to see how it goes.

I'm reading about all the things you're doing for Hondo on your laminitis thread. It sounds like you're doing everything you can. I am hoping it will all help with his recovery.


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## Hondo

Thanks. Fingers crossed on Hondo. On the positive side, the entire affair has been a turning point of sorts, sort of, in that a more complete realization has come to bear on what is more important to me, working on my beloved trails, or Hondo

Hondo has won, hands down.

He's wearing clog/boots on hinds now also. He is gradually making improvements but it does of course seem exceedingly slow to me. I will be glad when he seems well enough to take the long hard ride to the vets to check on rotation. If there is rotation, which I'm sure there is, it'll take a year for the new connection to grow down from the top so continual care must be taken.

Another positive is that he is getting 1/2 ration morning and night of Arizona Copper Complete which I have given up on ever feeding him 3 or 4 times in the past. It's the SafeChoice that he is eating it with. I'm gradually reducing the SafeChoice and he's still gobbling it down. A year of that should really help his feet.

Fifteen horses all eating the same thing and Hondo went lame. So PPID test are on the way.

I let Rimmey in the pen with him yesterday and they were so happy together that I've got to do that a bit every day. Over the fence just does not cut it. They like to touch and groom.

Guess I sort of went off.

Back to Hero. Since you watched the video 10 times I figured you must have done everything correct. I'm wondering how much if any of the Vettec stuck to the shells?

Not to keep beating the subject to death, but I'm thinking perhaps the springiness of the shell caused it to pull away ever so slightly from the hoof wall prior to setting. Instead of duct tape to hold it tightly in place during curing, maybe vet wrap would be a better choice. It would stretch and really hold it in place.

But hopefully just using the Vettec by itself will work.

I wonder if horses regard humans as a domesticated predator?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I wonder if horses regard humans as a domesticated predator?


That is great. Interesting about Hondo being the only one in the herd with laminitis. 
We need more understanding about what makes some horses different, and I don't think it is as simple as PPID or IR/metabolic syndrome. 

There was something wrong with Halla, and I now believe there was nothing I could do about it. Why wouldn't she come up with PPID or insulin resistance the first year with laminitis, but the second year still founder terribly while not overweight, only on the tiniest bit of grass but low sugar/starch hay and nothing else to trigger it? Then after her hooves were falling apart, suddenly test positive for PPID and IR? I don't understand how a horse can suddenly become positive after the damage is done. There seems to be no way to prevent that. There was no reason to put her on Prascend until it was too late.

Anyway, I always felt there was something wrong with her, with her digestive system. She did not ever have a normal interest in food, even after being treated for ulcers and while on prebiotics, probiotics, and digestive aids. I don't believe most cases are like hers. But perhaps our understanding of all the causes for laminitis and founder is still limited.

Had a great ride yesterday, about 7 miles down the beach with Nala. 
I've owned Hero about 5 months now. I already think of him as _*my boy*_, and am really enjoying having him. He's a funny and cute horse. 
I always thought I was a mare person, but I think I'm evenly split on which I prefer. So many positives with either. I've had boy and girl dogs, and always swear whichever one I have at the time is the most affectionate. Same with cats. 

I just love how different every animal's personality is. Like today, I went out to the field early and the horses weren't expecting me. When Amore and Nala saw me, they came running, but Hero just lumbered up. The girls were frantic to get their apple pieces, but Hero was calm, like he knew he'd get his share and didn't have to worry about it. 
DH was along, and he had Amore's brush in his hand, which has stiff bristles. He held it up toward Hero and I said, "He's not going to let you brush him with that one." 
He replied, "I'll use it very gently," lifted it up to touch Hero's side, and Hero's ears flattened as he rushed away. 
I said, "Nope, he is adamant that he only will accept a soft brush or sponge." 

Hero is getting in better and better shape, and he tells me when he is tired with this sound that is half groan, half grunt. We trotted and cantered for most of the last mile of the beach yesterday, and were trotting up within 1/8th mile of our exit trail when he made the sound. I said, "Time to walk, he's done." 

We've figured out that if Nala canters in the deep sand and Hero canters on the hard sand, they end up exerting themselves about the same. The Renegade boots work fine on the sand.
















I think his personality shows well in this expression:








He seems to partly feel like, "Why am I out here?" and partly he seems to enjoy it, and he's half sweet and appreciative of attention, and half mischievous and making sure no one takes advantage of him. 








It is a lot of work to ride him. It's hard to explain, but Halla was completely self-energizing, and it was a lot of work to ride her but the work was steering her with my weight/balance, staying with her motion, and holding her energy back. Meanwhile I basically hovered over her when we went fast.

Hero's motion is often "non-hoverable." Even when he gets into a good rhythm, which is happening more frequently, it's a big movement that is difficult to flex my joints enough to ride with a shorter stirrup, and with a longer stirrup I have to sit the motion to stay with him. Sometimes this feels good and I'm sitting back and he's taking big, swinging strides. When he's tired he puts his head low and that puts his balance downhill. So then I two point to stay balanced but it's awkward, trying to get him to drive with the hind end. 
He does have a big trot he can do until he is very tired, and that has a very nice rhythm I can two point and hover over. So we tend to trot more toward the end of a ride, and I think working him in the trot is helping his canter too.


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## SueC

@*gottatrot* , you're both looking fabulous! Hero has such a lovely rich dark coat at the moment - does he stand in the shade a lot? You've just had summer, and that normally bleaches them a little on the tips.

It's informative reading your thoughts about Halla and PPID etc. I'm getting Sunsmart blood tested next week because I don't like what happened to his coat this winter. It's not the _wavy_ coat people often specify for PPID, but it was ridiculously long and ended up making clumps I have to cut off him, under his rug. He has never clumped before, or had anything but a relatively short winter coat. He is 21, so I think I need to know what's going on before the spring flush really gets going, because I don't want to end up with another dead horse this spring.

It's only last November we had to shoot his mother, just shy of 28. She just started with a long coat that winter as well, after being healthy all her long life, on and off grass. Her breed and line doesn't normally get these sorts of problems, and her line are also generally horses that don't overeat on pasture. Unlike her son though, who takes after his sire and he hoovers just like my Arabian mare did and therefore they had a diet paddock during spring flushes, until we had the right number of cattle competing for pasture with them.

Anyway, Sunsmart's mother went from the abnormally long hair coat in winter to excessive sweating, drinking and urination by the middle of spring, and then developed laminitis and coordination problems very rapidly. She deteriorated so quickly the thinking is she had a fairly fast-growing pituitary tumour, that was probably giving her more than PPID. The vet actually thought that in her case, the spring grass was pretty irrelevant, and that I couldn't have managed her out of the outcome somehow. I guess philosophically, they have to die of something in old age, and she was nearly 28, but she's the youngest horse I've lost here - my Arabian mare was 32, and I've got an old STB gelding who is now 34 and may also have mild PPID by now (we've not tested because at his age that's pretty pointless, we'll support him while he's happy and his quality of life is good).

So, fingers crossed for Sunsmart, and for Hondo, it seems. They may not have it, but if they do, it may not be unmanageable. Sunsmart is fine apart from the coat and being a little more interested in the lick block of late. Sound, races around with the others, but obviously has been out of work since I fractured my foot. Tomorrow I'm getting back on him to start again slowly.

PS: Is that a Spanish Snaffle you're sporting? Same slotted D-rings as ours, which is a port-mouth. I can't tell what's in his mouth of course unless he says _Aaaaah!_ ;-) Although you've probably discussed it already... flat chin chain or leather strap? Or just as is?


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## SueC

...and while I think of it, an interesting snippet of information from our farrier. We're a largely organic farm, and we don't use synthetic fertilisers to stimulate pasture growth. He says this decreases the risk of our horses developing IR and laminitis - and that he's seen so many cases of laminitis in horses the spring after superphosphate was applied to their pasture...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Anyway, Sunsmart's mother went from the abnormally long hair coat in winter to excessive sweating, drinking and urination by the middle of spring, and then developed laminitis and coordination problems very rapidly. She deteriorated so quickly the thinking is she had a fairly fast-growing pituitary tumour, that was probably giving her more than PPID. The vet actually thought that in her case, the spring grass was pretty irrelevant, and that I couldn't have managed her out of the outcome somehow....
> ...So, fingers crossed for Sunsmart, and for Hondo, it seems. They may not have it, but if they do, it may not be unmanageable. Sunsmart is fine apart from the coat and being a little more interested in the lick block of late. Sound, races around with the others, but obviously has been out of work since I fractured my foot. Tomorrow I'm getting back on him to start again slowly.
> 
> PS: Is that a Spanish Snaffle you're sporting? Same slotted D-rings as ours, which is a port-mouth. I can't tell what's in his mouth of course unless he says _Aaaaah!_ ;-) Although you've probably discussed it already... flat chin chain or leather strap? Or just as is?


Interesting about your mare (and sad) and Sunsmart. Amore has PPID, was on Prascend 0.5 mg for a year, and now has been on 1 mg. for over two years. She was drinking and urinating a lot, but lost the ability to sweat, and also has grown a _very_ long coat that sheds late for a few years now. But she has never had any hoof problems so far, even though she's been diagnosed with PPID since age 20 and is now 27. 

If Amore was my only experience with PPID, I'd say "no problem, the secret is give them the pill, don't let them get too fat, trim their hooves great and they'll be fine." But Halla taught me otherwise. 

On the medication Amore does not have any symptoms except the long coat now, and she can sweat again. Before age 20 she had pneumonia once and a neck abscess, and was prone to scratches, so my guess is those were related to depressed immune system from the PPID.

Halla sweated excessively for years, but that was the only sign I ever thought could have been related to PPID.

Hero has his fall coat in already, which is not very long but is darker than his summer coat, almost black. I think technically he is seal brown, because of his muzzle. Not a speck of white anywhere. 

Yes, Hero seems to like the Spanish snaffle best so far (aka Kimberwicke), and Nala has converted over to one too. I've known a lot of horses that go well in them. Mostly hotter TBs and Arabs. Both are with a ported mouthpiece, Nala's is more moveable because it is a Myler type. I use a flat chain with a lip strap because I was galloping on a horse once and the chain came undone and was hitting the horse in the eye with each stride. No injuries but not super fun to get the horse calmed down and slowed.

Nala's rider has a much easier time slowing Nala down from a gallop in the Spanish snaffle vs. a regular snaffle. I rode Halla in one for years, all over the mountain trails. Once I started riding on the beach regularly with people and horses that might make it so I was the one who had to keep the pace controlled, I had to up the leverage to a short-shanked grazing curb.

When I lived down the coast and my friends were all excellent riders, we'd always have at least one horse and rider that could signal the end of a gallop on the beach and get the rest of us under control. Nala is not that type of horse, and when Halla was in good shape those two could have run us a few extra miles and made us late for dinner. Plus Nala was going in a regular snaffle then so would sometimes just race off. 

If we were on the wrong footing, Halla could be tripping dangerously with her bad knees even when Nala was cruising OK. With the curb I could keep her pace safe even if she was upset about it. The one time Nala took off out on the wet sand while we were further inland and still in some deep moguls, and when Halla took off she nearly toppled herself right over one. I held her back but she was so hot she came up, clocked me in the chin with her head and almost knocked me out. We leaped our way past the moguls before I let her go, with me half dizzy still. That's the kind of thing you can't always do in a snaffle in a situation like that, and might end up just doing a somersault instead.


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## gottatrot

After our ride today, I discovered that U2 has a song that was about this exact ride (Summer of Love). It's about summer fading, a summer of love (obviously about someone with a new horse), on the west coast (not the one that everyone knows). Sounds like us.
Tee hee.

I believe it's actually a sad song, but I pretend sad songs are happy and my sister doesn't believe me but I am positive that love songs are written about the deep love between people and their animals.

It's getting to where I can ride Hero with one hand pretty easily. I didn't have any housing for the camera, so it's quite a shaky video since I tried holding it in my hand. But I like that you can see how lovely _my boy_ is and what a nice attitude he has. 

For the first time today we let Nala gallop away and leave Hero behind. He did just fine with it. He cantered as fast as he could, and when he wished he could go faster he tried, failed, threw in a buck, but then he'd canter for a few strides again. So it wasn't nearly as frustrating as it could have been and I think he will get used to it in time. 






Something I'm mulling over is that I rode without boots today and I could tell he functioned better without them on the hinds. I'm wondering if it is possible that his functional breakover is actually as far back as he has worn the hooves, to the edge of his sole. I was looking at a lot of TBs on the Canter rehoming website yesterday and it's crazy how many of them have really bad conformation. I'm talking roached backs, super steep pelvis angles, really wonky long pasterns and legs that sit way behind their hooves. 
I suppose it's possible that Hero's angles are just not as functional unless the hoof is very steep. They seem to have stopped wearing off at the front, so I'm keeping an eye on them to see if they've actually reached the point of wear where they won't go any farther. That would be nice to know.


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## Hondo

How is the Vettec seeming to hold up?


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## SueC

@gottatrot , you commented recently on riding with grippy soles and with stirrup grips and having no trouble getting out of the stirrups. Same here. Indeed, I am now riding in even grippier soles, because fulltime in these ankle-high hiking boots when outdoors with my recovering foot fractures:









I actually like the high-grip connection; if I do lose the stirrups I can get them back quickly by just fishing for them, and also the grippier the connection the less I lose the stirrups. That's one reason I stopped riding in my smooth-soled horse-riding boots after riding in hiking sneakers earlier this year - that and the lack of fashion police! :rofl: Also imagine if you did have to walk a long way back home if you lost your horse - you'd be much more comfortable in hiking boots! 

What sort of riding boots are you in that actually have grippy soles?

I've only been caught in a stirrup once in my riding life of 38 years and counting, and that was a really unusual situation that involved falling into a gate sideways with a horse. I couldn't actually feel or move my leg after that to get it out because it was rather shell-shocked from just bending steel pipe out of shape with the upper portion of the tibia; but kicking at the stirrup from the ground with the free foot worked the moment I remembered to do it. (Drilled into me.)

Two features to look for in English stirrups for safety are that they should be generous on the foot rather than tight, and that they should be heavy. I rode in light stirrups for a while and not only did they bounce around if you lost them, I also could see how they were more likely to trap the foot. And just adding to that, I too have my feet contacting the stirrups in the position you have in your photos - ball of the foot, where I also put them when climbing a ladder, rather than further back - and I find that really comfortable personally. This also decreases the risk of being stuck in stirrups - and one reason I got stuck in the situation related above is that my foot had slid further forward than normal in the accident.

You can also get safety stirrups with elastic outsides that come loose in an accident (but not in normal riding position), but I really haven't found there is enough of a problem for me to consider that.

Your beach riding looks so lovely and could almost be relaxing if you didn't ride a spirited horse, but that wouldn't be such fun!  (I guess when we are a hundred, we can ride camels.)


PS: Your music commentary! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :clap: :clap: :clap: Other love songs that might suit you there could be: _Walking On Sunshine_ (Katrina & The Waves), _I'm Sorry_ (Hothouse Flowers), _Stupidly Happy_ (XTC), _Burn_ (The Cure), and especially _I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles)_ (The Proclaimers). Actually, that's got a bit of swing to it, so here it is:






You may have to do some creative lyric substitution to tailor it to your situation - like "feed you oats" instead of getting drunk, and "I would trot/canter/gallop 500 miles - and 500 more" instead of mere walking. But the bit about bringing home almost every penny you earn for your beloved is often spot on when you own a horse! :rofl: There's a lot of bounce to this number though, and I can just see you singing it and Hero snorting along!

If you're looking at the U2 catalogue for inspiration, don't you think _Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses_ is more suitable for horses like Hero and Sunsmart than _Summer of Love_? ;-)


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## SueC

Just a thought about your boots observation: You'd expect that, because boots essentially move the horses' breakover forward a bit while they are wearing them, and for the hind legs to get optimal traction, leverage etc, I think a normal short-toe conformation is better than with boots - and horseshoes actually interfere less with that (I'm not talking about those thick heavy hack shoes, of course, but thin, lightweight aluminium racing plates with a little steel insert in the toe for grip and to stop the toe wearing down fast, which is what I used to use when in a situation where shoeing was needed). The reason I boot all-round is that when I boot, I'm in terrain with sharp pointy rocks. In that terrain, the disadvantage of shifting the rear breakover forward is outweighed by the protection offered. Otherwise I barefoot.

How 4WD is Hero? Does he mostly push out of the hindquarters for speed, catching himself with the front, like lots of TBs? Some TBs are more 4WD. STBs are more 4WD as a breed and do a whole lot of work out of their shoulders as well. The differences in their racing gaits account for some of this, but it kind of transfers to all gaits. So moving the breakover forward on the hind feet by booting is probably less of an issue for the average STB than the average TB.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> How is the Vettec seeming to hold up?


A lot of the glue has worn off, but I have mixing tips arriving in the mail any day so I'm planning to add more to the front of the walls.
I'm toying with the idea of gluing some casting tape on as well. I have a few rolls, and it's so porous I wondered if it might create a stronger bond with the glue and create a bit more material to hold up against the wear.

@SueC, good and interesting thoughts. 
I love that song 500 miles, so catchy. I do agree that "Who's gonna ride your wild horses" is quite apropos but I think I already used it in a video featuring Nala.  I was thinking about using the Cult song, _American Horse_ for these two TBs. "_He's gone crazy, really crazy, trying to train the American Horse_." LOL.


The boots I use with grip are Ariat Scout boots. It doesn't look like there is a lot of grip, but there is, and the heel is low enough to do some running if necessary (as seen in my video where Amore and Halla headed back to the barn without me).








I've used the riding tennis shoes Ariat makes but I do better with a little ankle support. I agree that lighter, composite stirrups are more dangerous. Much harder to keep your weight in them enough to keep from losing them on occasion. Still, I am currently riding in wide bed composites, because I've found my foot fatigue is much less and my toes don't get numb on longer rides. It's always a trade off. I seem to have been able to fall off safely a few times without getting stuck.


I suppose when we're 100 we'll be on slow camels, but probably at 95 we'll meet up for a pony chariot race. We can choose: my place to go down the beach, or your place across the outback.


Interesting about the 4WD thoughts re: STBs and TBs. I am guessing with horses that don't need as much 4WD like my Arabs, the hind breakover is not as critical. I really didn't notice a difference when they had boots on all around. Yes, Hero seems to need the push from the hind to get going. I'm glad Hero is getting used to boots for when we do go on rocky trails, but ideally he will be able to have a solution that keeps the breakover back for most of our regular riding. Our footing is soft enough that it's only the scraping off the front wall I need to avoid, rather than having sole protection.


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## Hondo

What about moving the breakover on the boots back a little if needed? Hondo seemed to be doing so much better when using the Ground Controls with the breakover moved back I've thought about doing that with the boots. 

Good idea on using the casting tape. I can see how that would possibly add to the life. BTW, when the Vettec is cold as in the frig, that does give more working time. That way you might get both hooves done before the tip begins to set up and needs to be changed.


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## gottatrot

I don't have any new pics today, so am posting one from our trip to Western Australia in 2014. I was reading @SueC's journal and remembering this great ride. We went out with two guides, and they put DH on a big and very mellow Standardbred. One guide was less experienced and after we rode awhile, she continued on a walking route with DH while the experienced guide took me across a different trail where galloped the TBs we were on. 

As you can see, my TB was a very cute little chestnut, and he was very willing to take off in a gallop up and down the dunes when the guide's horse did, but also stopped and calmed down when we were done. This is one of my few experiences riding in an Aussie saddle.









It was great hearing how some HF members were able to get together for a ride. It must have been very fun to see each others' horses and chat in person.

I had a bad cold last week but had several good rides on Hero before and after. You know how horses are...even though I ride through the west property to go to the beach, when I decided to ride Hero just around that part of the property it was a big deal to him and he was a little worked up. 
_Why aren't we going through the gate? Why did we turn back that way? Now we're going by the gate again? You want me to canter but I can't see behind that bush...etc. _

Two women walked by on the road outside the fence, and said "What a pretty horse! He looks so energetic, is he very young?" 
*facepalm* Oh great. I used to get that question all the time about Amore!

Between my cold and quite a few days of rain, I haven't managed to ride with Nala's rider for a bit, but have been squeezing in rides here and there. Took Hero to the beach and we went out at a decent pace - because I carried the crop. He is one of those smart ones who would probably choose to make some of his own decisions if his rider was very passive. 

This is probably engrained into him from the track. It's not like they have a lot of time to find ways to motivate horses, and horses are very good at reverse association. If you use the crop to make me, I should question whether I should do something until I see the crop. Ideally I'd like to wean him off that, so I show it to him at least twice before touching him with it. I'm wondering if I could make it smaller and smaller until he couldn't see it, and then maybe I could just use my hand to mean "the crop." 

Something really nice about Hero is that he tells me if I'm missing something. Amore used to do that by dropping me on the ground suddenly. He actually talks. On the beach, a dog got loose and came charging up behind us but I couldn't see it. Hero made this "snark" sound with his nostrils. Not like an alarm snort, it's different. More like "Hey, did you notice?" He's told me about cars driving up fast, a motorcycle, elk on top of the dunes, and this dog. Hero is also getting the "game" about dogs, and is learning that if he faces them they run back to their owners. 

Tonight we rode around the east fields in the mist at twilight. I noticed that the hills we were riding up and down were feeling small to me, which meant he was gliding over them without hanging up, and trotting or even cantering through things that would have made him stop and think a few months ago. I won't say he never threw in some bucks when we cantered, but there was no getting stuck.


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## SueC

@*gottatrot* , we've been sitting here trying to guess where that beach is! I've been saying, "No, the sand isn't white enough for our part of the coast (granite weathering), maybe more towards Walpole way?" Or maybe I'm totally off the mark and it's the West Coast, somewhere between Geraldton and Augusta? ...and now I'm looking at it actually, it's not the ocean, it's some kind of harbour or inlet, which would explain the darker sand, but I still don't recognise it...

Your DH has a nice smile! Were his knees abraded after that ride? :shock: ...mine would be... ...and your face seems to say, "Hooray, a horse!" :rofl:



gottatrot said:


> Something really nice about Hero is that he tells me if I'm missing something. Amore used to do that by dropping me on the ground suddenly. He actually talks.


:rofl: Now that's very convenient, compared to your first situation!

Especially now that you're over 40! ;-)



I thought you might like some of our local beach scenes with horses on them, so I've dug around for some.

First two are at Quaranup on the eastern side of Princess Royal Harbour in Albany, with Sunsmart and a good friend on her gorgeous (recently deceased) TB. Next one is with my Arabian mare and a co-agistee on her Palomino, at Cosy Corner back in 2008. Next two is my friend on the TB at Muttonbird Beach, and on the last she's in the Princess Royal Harbour, town end, with a person on a Percheron mare. (And if only we all had a TARDIS!!!)


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## gottatrot

We were up much farther north, in Kalbarri. 
For those who don't know, Kalbarri is about where the red X is in the north, and @SueC lives closer to where the red X is in the south.








The stables were about where the red X is here, and we rode along the river you can see on this map. There were many sand dunes and dune trails along the river.








I wish I could have also ridden on the beautiful beaches in your pictures! 

I warned DH about wearing shorts and getting abrasions but it was so very hot compared to what we are used to. He only walked, and didn't get any rubs. He's got a hide more like an Arab, LOL. Tough skin. 

Had a lovely ride today with Nala's rider. The sand was perfect and so was the weather - about 60 F/16 C with no wind. Hero was trotting on the way home and suddenly picked up the canter in one flawless stride, without any warning. My first impulsive response was to make a sound that told him "no." Then a half second later I was so pleased he could finally do that! So I was conflicted.


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## SueC

No wonder I didn't recognise it, I've never been north of Yanchep in WA! (about where the e of the name Perth in your map is). It's because of my Viking genes which won't tolerate heat. :rofl:

I much admire your computing skills, @*gottatrot* . Just coming up with labelled maps like this in the twinkle of an eye! It's about time I scanned the map of our trails for you lot, with everyone else so vastly graphic about their riding venues! 

It's great that Hero's physical issues have improved so much. Well done you two! :clap:

PS: I don't have a horse float, so I don't ride on the beach much since we've lived in Redmond. An either-or thing, and I am not complaining. Still, we get to go to the beach a lot without a horse! ;-)


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> We were up much farther north, in Kalbarri.
> For those who don't know, Kalbarri is about where the red X is in the north, and @*SueC* lives closer to where the red X is in the south.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



you make Australia look so conveniently small and doable. It's a BIG country, mate!


Just kidding, because me an hubby are gonna go to Gold Coast area next April or May, and I want to add in a trip to SueC's area, but it's not like it's just 'around the corner'!


Still, if I'm going half way around the world, I outta see as much as I can, no?


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## SueC

Absolutely. You stopping by then? 

Sydney to Perth by plane is only about 4 hours, like here to Perth by car or bus. And you can fly very affordably on standby flights or previously booked specials. We've done the trip across for less than $400 return per person. Sometimes way less.











PS: The Gold Coast is way boring compared to the South Coast. It's just skyscrapers and sand, sort of like Florida. Down here is where the real wild stuff is. Here and Tasmania. Sydney's Blue Mountains aren't bad either; as is the Barrenjoey Peninsula near Broken Bay, and we really recommend taking the ordinary Sydney harbour ferries on a day ticket, go anywhere (instead of the silly tourist boats). A Sydney stopover is a must... fabulous city...and forget Bondi, go up to Broken Bay! Or at least to Manly / Shelley Beach instead. Bondi is dull.


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## tinyliny

we are going to visit family, who live one hour outside of Brisbane. However, if I can get husband on board, I'd like to see the other coast, too. I'd LOVE to spend a month in OZ, if I can afford it. Now that he is retired, we have time aplenty, but money is tight
. I'm only making the hellaciously long air trip to Australia once. (I detest long flights and it's super hard for me to endure. Like torture)


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## Hondo

I must confess that I've always considered Australia on the order of 1/5th the size of the US. After all, it's ONLY and island. Couldn't be that big.

Guess I flunked that geography quiz.

If I were to ever make the trip, it would be by water. And then only if Hondo were allowed on board.


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> we are going to visit family, who live one hour outside of Brisbane. However, if I can get husband on board, I'd like to see the other coast, too. I'd LOVE to spend a month in OZ, if I can afford it. Now that he is retired, we have time aplenty, but money is tight
> . I'm only making the hellaciously long air trip to Australia once. (I detest long flights and it's super hard for me to endure. Like torture)


Yeah, I really get it about the long-haul flights, which is why I did my last one 20 years ago. My legs were actually purple when I got to London, for example, and I felt sooooo bad. I was dreading flying back, went to Kensington Gardens the morning before the flight, hired roller blades, and spent the day roller-blading trying to wear myself out before the flight. When I got to the airport, there was a flight delay due to a Middle East crisis and we waited over seven hours... got re-routed through Kenya... more waiting, and on the runway, noone allowed off... by the time we were airborne again, all I remember is an endless blue ocean beneath me with an endless blue sky above, out of this state of coma out of which I no longer believed I would ever wake...

If money is tight, consider staying with us. We get the tight budget thing, that's us too. Accommodation is so expensive, and we'd love to have you just stay as friends. There's even horses! :rofl: And having visitors always makes us go around and discover all the wonderful places around here all over again. It's great to have an excuse! In return, just teach me some Japanese... and maybe some Spanish... We have the room, and the garden is always overflowing with food... How 'bout that? Brett will show you his Kendo sword. You can ride Sunsmart, and it won't be emu breeding season then. (I had an encounter with a mad emu yesterday when riding, which is on my journal. :rofl And Don Quixote's ears are 28cm long, and he loves to have their insides scratched, and you should see the state of human hands afterwards... :rofl:

And same goes for everyone here, if you're ever in Australia and you'd like to spend time in this part of the world.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> If I were to ever make the trip, it would be by water. And then only if Hondo were allowed on board.


Can't you go for a little paddle together and save on the fare? ;-)










How's Hondo going? I kind of got he's not so well, is he getting better? (If only I could read all the threads and books I want to, but I'm such a slow reader and you've not said anything on your actual journal...)

And how are _you_? Reading any good books?

By the way, if Hondo and you swim here, I'll happily go riding with you two! :clap: Or should that be perambulating? All good...


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> Can't you go for a little paddle together and save on the fare? ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's Hondo going? I kind of got he's not so well, is he getting better? (If only I could read all the threads and books I want to, but I'm such a slow reader and you've not said anything on your actual journal...)
> 
> And how are _you_? Reading any good books?
> 
> By the way, if Hondo and you swim here, I'll happily go riding with you two! :clap: Or should that be perambulating? All good...


That'd be quite a paddle. Guy that made a 10,000 mile ride on horses decided at 75YO he was going to row around the world in a canoe. Hasn't been heard from since. We'll take the boat. Maybe we can work for part of our fare.

Hondo is doing better. No sign of lameness but x-rays not so good. EDSS clogs due in soon which he will be wearing soon. No dry barn to dry his feet in and rain for 8 days so may have to get under the canopy and use a heat gun to dry his feet.

I've been talking about it on various threads with titles that I wanted to ask questions about.

Almost finished with Animals Make Us Human. Just 3-5 pages per day. Then think about it.

Did finish The Narcissist You Know. I think I may start in depth studying of other clinical personality disorders. The book had a tremendous impact on me as I saw clearly how I tend to present myself as a target, plus I recognize a little more of my own narcissistic tendencies which we all have and probably need to a degree.

Are we still on the horse forum????????


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## waresbear

I be swimming to meet up with you if I could! But seriously, I would love to make a trip to Australia and meet up & ride & swim. A vid of me swimming in Horse Lake (actual name!) with one my horses after a lesson. Had a nice drop off as it was a boat launch.


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## SueC

@*Hondo* , have you considered giving on-board pony rides on Hondo in lieu of fare? :riding: Glad to hear he seems better. The rain is never helpful. Could you put his feet into oversized boots and put an inoffensive drying medium in it, like dry powdered kaolin? Or use Stockholm tar or another hydrophobic barrier like that to reduce waterlogging before heavy rain etc? (The latter is what we do here, to prevent the frogs rotting from the constant winter wet.) Lanolin is also good but we used to mix it with the tar when we could get it because lanolin goes so solid in winter and is hard to spread then. - I'm a slow reader too, but you know, the mills that grind slowly grind exceedingly small etc. Seems like you've got really interesting reading there. I've a colleague who blogs about narcissism here and I think she is especially good at helping people sort out what is narcissism and what are fleas from lying down with dogs etc. https://littleredsurvivor.com/ ...wish I'd had this thirty years ago, great resource. All the best to you and your four-legs! :hugS: Yes, still the horse forum, but horses are catalysts in becoming whole people! :blueunicorn:

@*waresbear* , now there's an experience I've not had - I've splashed in the water with horses, up to belly deep, but not actually swum them. Love the clip and it looks such fun. I deduce you too qualify as an imp, from that clip! :rofl: And that's a lovely horse, is that Indy? Very athletic and great attitude by the looks of him. It's really fun to actually see a clip of a person interacting with their horse; I bet you yours follow you around like puppies, hee hee. I'll make an effort to post something like that on my journal sometime too. And you're always welcome to visit and ride and swim, although I would not recommend our boggy farm dam - but there is a nearly pristine ocean down the road... inkunicorn:

@*gottatrot* , where's the biscuits? ;-) We're hanging out at your place again. Have you ever swum with horses?


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## gottatrot

@waresbear, love the video!
@SueC, actually the only time I've been in the water very deep was on that Kalbarri ride. I actually got deep enough on my horse to feel his legs swimming under me. That was fun. Those Ay-rab mares I had would do anything in order to not go in water, so we avoided it most of the time. I think Hero would go swim, maybe we'll try it next summer.









It was a tricky day...DH and I had to drive down the coast to visit MIL in the nursing home, since DH's brother was visiting from PA. It was especially beautiful and that was the tricky part. We stopped by the barn to put horse feed out, and Nala and Penny's riders were going out for a ride. Some days you really understand the meaning of a word such as _yearning_. That's what I had, a yearning to go with them, and/or just to go the beach. 
Here are a couple photos they took - the eagles were enjoying the beach too.
















Those dark lines made by the tire tracks have been the nemesis of many a horse and rider. A couple weeks ago Nala's rider went for a ride with someone who ended up in the ER after spooking at the lines. I was on a ride once with a horse that met the lines but would not step over them, and the horse sidepassed and sidepassed to avoid going forward. 

I watch unusual lines very carefully on rides, in case we come to a sudden screeching halt at the edge of the "cliff" they create. Even though horses learn to deal with the illusion and believe it is not a cliff, you can feel there is always a small part of them that hesitates, thinking perhaps it _is_ a cliff after all. 

The problem with driving down the coast here on a sunny day is that you pass dozens of beaches (about 25 miles down to the nursing home), and each one looks more inviting than the last. At one point you are on top of a massive cliff and the view is amazing. Sigh.









After visiting at the nursing home, we took a break for dinner, and from the cafe I could see yet another beach peeking at me from across the road, through the high stilted legs of the condos blocking most of the view. So we couldn't help ourselves, and got lost on the way back to the nursing home for a few minutes to get a little salty air.
This beach has thousands of pieces of massive driftwood. When you stand on the jetty, the passage is narrow and the water swirls in eddies going in every direction.








We didn't have cameras, but the sky was clear but the mountains looked like they were wearing old man hair, the mist was laying over the top and hanging down like frizzy white wigs. 

Just for fun, I found a pic online of a cliff along the same drive which is where DH proposed to me almost 20 years ago, about where the X is. There is a nice little trail down there, with rocks to sit on. 









I think I have an advantage on long flights, since I work 12 hour shifts. I think of a flight as a work shift, and think of it as being easier, since napping is allowed. So I break it up in my mind with blocks of time for what to do. Watch a 2 hr movie, have a lunch break, read a magazine, 2 hr nap, then play a game, read a book, watch another movie, eat again, listen to music, another magazine (I bring at least two), next thing you know it's over. It's the mental fatigue that gets to you.

The Tardis we need would have stables inside so we could have a HF meet and greet at SueC's house or mine, but I think we'd eat better at her place.


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## gottatrot

Cass and Brave's owner posted this video of her riding and ponying on the beach, showing how beautiful it was tonight. 
It's hard to tell there are two horses at first!

https://www.hoofforum.com/photos/index.php/43838814_722897678103215_439040451874390016_n


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## SueC

@gottatrot, those photographs are _breathtaking_... 
And how _romantic_!- a clifftop proposal. _Take the leap with me, darling!_ :loveshower: @gottatrot and DH, sitting in a tree etc (is that a common rhyme in the US too?)

How in the heck did they make that road? :shock: For instance, how did they make that retaining wall under the red car cliffside? They must have such clever tricks to do these things...

And are those the same cliffs you see in the beach shot towards the south?

_Amazing_ scenery. I think we should meet and greet all over the world; with a TARDIS the world is your oyster. (me in fantasyland :rofl Stables are no problem; bigger on the inside etc. Would even have a nice pasture paddock for the darlings. It's sort of like Mary Poppins' spatially transcendental handbag.

You're all welcome to eat at my place should you ever be in the vicinity. In fact, I sometimes take drastic measures and mail food out to people. :rofl:

My problem on long-hauls are femurs longer than anyone else's I've ever met, including people on basketball teams who tower over me. Try squeezing that into the sardine economy space. The person in front of you wants to recline, and it bruises your knees. It puts you in impossible positions that are unbearable. I try to get wing exit seats as they have a bit more space. The other big problem I have is that I simply cannot sleep unless I am lying flat, and sleep deprivation is a living hell for me - and turns me into a very strange person at the end of it! :dance-smiley05::rofl: :eek_color: I'm not sure the staff at London airport liked having a wombat waved in their faces by a deliriously gibbering Aussie...


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## Hondo

Hmmmm.......glad you said yes!  That looks pretty precarious. (the devil made me type that)

About 12 years ago, I experienced a major pulmonary embolism with suspected cause from sitting around too long during an extended rainy spell. Very painful in the chest and later in the leg. Compression socks felt soooo good.

No long flights for me I'm afraid. I really like the idea of giving rides on a luxury liner. I will ask Hondo what he thinks about it. And perhaps we could learn to do some tricks for the passengers. I'll bet we could create some memories for the passengers to take home that no liner has ever provided.

It's so important to know something about how horses see and perceive the world around them rather than just conclude the horse is being silly about some innocent tire tracks. That should be included on the Horse Ownership License Test that I'm proposing.

Edit: The Narcissist book mentioned is by Joseph Burgo, PhD. He stresses all through the book to not feel anger toward the narcissist as their pain is often greater than that which they cause, but also cautions that one should never believe they can help them and must take steps to protect themselves, by avoidance if possible.


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## Knave

It used to be that we pushed cows down the asphalt road for a very short distance on one drive of the year here. The fights would insue when there was always a cow or two who refused to cross the lines. They covered the lines (just where they crossed into and off the road) with some hay to get the leaders across, but it would be gone quickly and there is always that cow that thinks for herself. 

I swam a horse when I was a girl! At Riata, where I was trick riding, each Sunday we took the horses to the river and bathed them there. Then we would swim them down the river, often doing things like dragging by their tails. Pete (the now old paint horse) wouldn’t tolerate anyone doing such a thing, but he did love swimming down the river.


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## Hondo

Cattle guards are often simply painted on the asphalt and they work! The cattle, most, do not cross them.









Cattle guards are often simply painted on the asphalt and they work! The cattle, most, do not cross them.


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## SueC

Oh, that's so interesting, @*Hondo* , I've never seen that before! We've seen lots of cattle grids, but never simulated ones like that. ...I bet Hondo would be the star of any cruise. And that's a really good point about anger. In the medium to long term it's corrosive to the survivor, and therefore undesirable. But in the short term, I think it can be really helpful for some people. I was never lastingly angry, just predominantly sad (and sad for them and their pain) about my family of origin situation all my 20s and 30s, and that kept me stuck, funnily enough. It was only when I was able to feel anger on behalf of the little girl I had been, and the horrible experiences, that I was able to emotionally detach from the situation, and the emotional detachment is so important, otherwise you can avoid all you like and it will still eat your energy and occupy your thoughts. Anger is actually a protective emotion and useful in some contexts. It's like an alarm system - a line has been crossed. Alarms are good, but obviously not if they go on forever. Then they are really annoying and unproductive. - It's different for everyone, emotions are complicated beasts. I rather suspect though that we need to be able to feel a little anger in order to effectively stand up for ourselves. (As horses momentarily do! ;-))

I'm always interested in how others have solved similar problems - I think it's so hard to get more than just a few puzzle pieces without the contributions of others. To this, and many other problems, really. It's like we have to plug into community and each other to be particularly good at things; and to be the best we can be also.

Isn't it funny how the horse is such a Zen mentor for its monkey. :rofl:


@*Knave* , that sounds wonderful! ...I want to know more about the trick riding...

Lovely film, @*gottatrot* !  Aren't we all very lucky with our animals in our various corners of the world?


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## waresbear

SueC yes that is Indy, yes he will follow me, or anyone around. Man that's so gorgeous gottatrot! Here we have mud, we had snow, then it rained now it's just mucky mud. I got text from a student's mother, she was dropping her off after school tomorrow. She said after her lesson to kill some time, put her to work doing horse type chores. Okay no problem I have a whole tack room full of mud splattered tack she can learn to tack all apart, clean and put it back together, lol.


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## tinyliny

waresbear said:


> I be swimming to meet up with you if I could! But seriously, I would love to make a trip to Australia and meet up & ride & swim. A vid of me swimming in Horse Lake (actual name!) with one my horses after a lesson. Had a nice drop off as it was a boat launch.
> https://youtu.be/pO97fwulj14





this was so intriguing. I've never done this before, and probably won't, It must feel amazing to feel the whole power of the animal under you.


that scene , int the movie "The Black Stallion", where Alec first mounts and rides the Black, in the sea, is like a dream in my heart. If I can't DO it, at least I can SEE it.!!


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## waresbear

It is a cool feeling, especially at that location because you wade out so then it literally drops off. It felt like jumping into the water with horse. I had a hard time steering because I dumped the reins and used the rope around his neck when I was out in the water, he kept wanting to swim over by a bunch of weeds, I hate weeds!


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## bsms

I'm in the desert. The horses here all know and fear the dreaded "*Puddle Shark*". I haven't seen any, but Mia sure saw them!


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## SueC

Sunsmart is also convinced Puddle Sharks exist. He doesn't like stepping into water, and he takes a giant leap over a tiny little stream or puddle, that would clear a competition oxer - he obviously read about how high Puddle Sharks can leap! :rofl:


I think horses have some sort of neural Internet with which they can communicate worldwide about these things.


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## gottatrot

My next post after this one, I want to muse over some horse breeds and articulate some thoughts brought up by a recent thread about mustangs. 

Tonight I went to the barn an hour before dark and was concerned I would not have enough time and/or ability to motivate Hero to get a good workout. Ha ha ha, that was an unnecessary worry.

Yesterday I didn't have time before work to get Hero exercised for more than ten minutes, so I led him for a little walk/trot in the upper field just to stretch his legs. He was really hot and snorty, and when we ran back toward the barn, I stopped abruptly and he planted his hind legs and reared like he thought he was some crazy stallion.









Well, the weather has been nice like a second spring. The wind was picking up tonight but it was still tee-shirt weather. We could hear the sustained popping of gunfire in the far off distance from the military base ten miles away. The breeze coming off the beach smelled like smoke from bonfires. 

Hero was edgy. I was careful. Something people should know is that many TBs (and Arabs) have these days where all of a sudden they act like they snorted crack. Today Hero was like that. I trotted him toward a very tiny ledge, and wondered if he would leap up it. He leaped/hopped, then bucked over the top of it.

At the beach he got really spooky at the top of the dune, backing and snorting. I got off and led him down, but he reared and leaped around me. I was like, "What's with the rearing all of a sudden?" On the beach I just lunged him around for awhile, but it was starting to get dark so I brought him back up the dune.
At the top I rode him back and forth over the mowed area on top; the sunset was beautiful and Hero did some nice serpentines, trotting and cantering. I would have liked him to get more sustained exercise, but darkness was falling fast.

When we got to the wooded area before entering the neighborhood we ride through to the beach, it seemed so dark I thought a deer might cause a big spook, so I got off to lead Hero through. He was jumping and hopping next to me, and as we exited the trees a momentary lapse made me lose my hold on the reins for a second. Oh that smart boy. He saw me let go, I saw him see it, I tried to talk him out of walking away, but he sidled right off looking at me. Then he picked up the canter and headed up the asphalt road into the neighborhood. Argh! Not cool to let go of your almost black horse at dark. 

I jogged up the hill, assuming he would go through the gate and back to the barn. I heard people exclaiming outside the house on top of the hill, overlooking the road. I waved and they asked if I was all right, or if they should get a car. I asked, "Did you see where he went?" Unfortunately, he had headed down the road past the gate and through the neighborhood.

Peering through the dusk as I jogged around the corner, I could see the long, straight road ahead was empty. I called, "Come on Hero boy!" a couple of times, and whistled. After a minute, I heard the bah-dah-dah, bah-dah-dah of cantering hooves on asphalt from far away, and soon the dark figure appeared running toward me. I told him to "Whooooa boy," but he shot past me, past the gate again and toward the other end of the road, which dead-ends. I went and stood at our gate back onto the barn property and called again, and he came running, coming to a screeching halt right next to me where I could pick up his reins, which were still draped nicely around his neck over the saddle.

SO, Hero got his exercise, and came back just in time before full dark. I got on, rode him home and he seemed none the worse for wear. I was glad I had put his hoof boots on, for good traction on the pavement. Hopefully he stayed on the road, and didn't take a detour through anyone's garden.

Anyway, sometimes it's like a storm coming with these horses, and you can think you might avoid it but then the wind changes and things get dicey.


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## waresbear

Wow, that was freaky!


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## SueC

How's your blood pressure, @*gottatrot* ? :rofl:


:runpony:


...life's never dull when you have a horse...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> ...life's never dull when you have a horse...


That is for sure.

I've been thinking about a discussion on another thread about mustangs, and it brought me to thinking about horse breeds and how I feel about their suitability or desirability for certain people. 

It is true, I've met people who say Arabs or TBs are crazy, or have a bias that every Mustang is going to be wild and aggressive. But even though I have worked with all three breeds and enjoy their traits, that doesn't mean I think they are suitable for everyone. 
In fact, I believe the majority of horses in all three breeds have few individuals that are suitable for most people; most will only do well with the right specific owner. I think it's very important to explain to people why they may not want a certain breed(s) of horse. 

If a person truly loves a breed or type of horse such as Arab, Mustang or TB, they can find a horse to match what they need, but they will need to be extremely selective and go into a search with a lot of information about general traits to look for or avoid.

In my mind, it is similar to some dog breeds. I used to have a Dalmatian, and he was the sweetest, most loyal, wonderful dog. Dalmatians were overbred after the Disney movie, _101 Dalmatians_ came out, and many people wanted one. Many Dals ended up in animals shelters, because they are a breed very unsuitable for the average owner. Someone bought my dog and then abandoned him back at the breeder's doorstep. She gave him to me for free since he was paid for.








As with horses, people have to think about what a dog was bred to do. Dalmatians were bred to run up to 40 miles a day alongside horse drawn vehicles, and to guard the vehicles. My dog was only wonderful because we ran together 6 days a week, and the 7th day I took him for a walk. Until age 8 or 9, he exuded pure energy. When my dog was young, I was a teen, and if something came up in my life where my dog didn't get enough exercise for a day or two, he would go destroy something. In my family everyone knew that was my fault, not the dog's, and would blame me and then I would make sure to get the dog enough exercise.
There are other dog breeds like this.

Modern breeding means that there are some Arabs that can handle a less energetic lifestyle. Most still hark back to where they came from. If I understand it right, those who bred Arabian horses for most of their history were not the most calm and peaceful people, and were not breeding horses to walk along quiet trails. They wanted horses that could carry full grown men over very harsh country and sand. After riding for many miles, they had to be able to still excite the horses enough to gallop into enemy territory for an attack. This explains the Arabian horse - tough, with exceptional endurance, and easily excitable.

Arabians also bond more easily to people than many breeds, and are sensitive to training. They can handle things that would break down other horses, and do well with heat and hard exercise. I love Arabs, but people should know that many will stay spooky and excitable throughout life. They also can be so sensitive and reactive that harsh handling will turn them into nervous wrecks. 
This does not mean they are crazy, but they are exhibiting traits they were bred for. It does mean they are not suitable for people who do not have the ability to stay calm, or who will be upset if a horse spooks and gets excited.

There are a few Arabs and TBs out there who are unflappable, calm, beginner safe horses. I have met some of these, worked with and ridden them. These horses are gems and it means that not only were they trained properly, but also they have a temperament that is different from most representatives of their breed. I don't believe anyone should mislead people by saying any Arab or TB can be this way with the right training.

The two horses leading this group are both OTTBs. Both were suitable for beginner riders. They had been chosen by a trainer for the owners. They were still a little challenging for their owners because of size and stride length, but definitely had the mellowest temperaments I've experienced from TBs.










Hero is not one of the hottest horses or TBs I've been around, meaning he has days where he is calm, does the work and doesn't spook or get excited. Even so, he does have days or times where he gets excited, and then he becomes a horse that would be difficult or dangerous for many people to either ride or handle. This is common for many TBs. They were bred to do hard athletic work such as racing and jumping. If calm, unflappable temperaments were bred into TBs, it would be hard to motivate them to gallop as fast as they can. People should know that excitability is a very common trait in the breed, and when you combine that with an often large and athletic horse, it can be a lot to handle.

TBs and Arabs are somewhat similar, in my experience. In general, Arabs tend to think less and react more when excited. TBs can be spooky, but Arabs tend to spook even more. TBs adapt more quickly to changes in the environment, in general. TBs are athletic but Arabs in general tend to be tougher and stay more sound even with the hardest work. Both breeds tend to tune out the rider or handler when overly excited. 

Mustangs in my opinion are the smartest of the three types of horses. They are so dang smart that they are too smart for most people. Take a horse that understands life is difficult, and survival depends on his own ability to find resources and stay out of trouble. Then bring him in to a domestic situation and he's still going to be constantly weighing whether things are in his best interest or not. It's not going to be a good idea to make this horse do things. 

My friend's mustang Major had an owner (briefly) who couldn't get him to hold up his feet so she hobbled him and laid him down. She got shoes on one time, but created a horse that wasn't going to let you touch his legs at all, and if you got close he'd cow kick you. Major was super smart, but ropes were not going to work now to build trust (thanks, lady) and I did get kicked a couple times showing him I could hold his foot for one second, then let him go, then two seconds, then let him go, etc. But after one session he was like, "Oh, you guys are cool," and after that we could trim him and put boots on him, no problem. 

Major is beautiful, grulla, almost 16 hands.








When I rode him the first time for my friend, I asked him to canter, he bucked, I spanked his butt. I asked him to canter again, he lifted a hind leg, I spanked his butt. Then he cantered nicely for me after that. That's the kind of thing I've seen over and over with Mustangs, especially the ones that seem to have draft and spanish blood. Sort of like, "Show me why I need to." But then they trust a person who is strong with them, and will be very good. 
They tend to not be spooky at all, but I've never been able to get one to work very hard. They're not going to go out and trot for ten miles a day. 

Diesel was good as gold and would take full advantage of his inexperienced owner. He just could not stop Diesel from putting his head down to eat, although more assertive riders would tell him not to and he wouldn't.









This next guy was a herd sire until age 7 or so. His owner wanted to bond with him and not have anyone else train him, but was not experienced with training. I think after two years she had a saddle on him, but he was not a difficult guy. He was very timid, but wanted to please. Her issue was being too timid herself. He easily learned the things he needed to know to be in a barn, such as leading nicely, turning in and out, getting groomed. Once I brought him in and he had ice balls on his hooves, so I picked up his hooves and got them out. That seemed to startle him, but he was fine, but the barn owner told me his owner had been sedating him to handle hooves. He is a bay roan but has many scars from his wild stallion days.









This last mustang is in the category with some I've known that would be suitable for anyone. Layla was a mustang, but notice she is genetically mostly just a QH. Those mustangs are ones I'd recommend people getting if they want to say they adopted one but want the characteristics most people want in a general using horse. I saw one that looked like a palomino QH and the trainer took him off the range and was riding him on the beach three days later. He couldn't do that with any of the other mustangs, nor the Arab he was supposedly training but gave up on eventually.

I'm behind Layla riding a gray Arab. :smile: Banner is 15 hands but the black guy is a Percheron so the others look tiny. Layla was sweet but a little boring for me.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot , Both of your posts make me so happy and appreciative of Hondo. Boring horses are just right for me at this stage of my life. I should teach Hondo to come to me when called, but so far he's never left me when the reins are dropped except when we were both running from bees.

What a harrowing incident with a horse loose in the dark in a neighborhood. Scary. Could have easily ended badly I'm thinking.

Rimmey's early life was on a reservation running wild as a mustang. If there is anything going on, he goes on alert many times stronger than the others and stays on alert much longer so I was nodding to many of your comments on mustangs. He was also laid down once for shoeing. With me he's fine with his feet as long as he is allowed to face the direction of his choice. When treated kindly he is a very affectionate horse.


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## SueC

Wonderful post, @gottatrot. 

I love that Dalmatian, and the way you are snuggling up to each other!  The same sort of thing happened in Australia with Kelpies after the film _Red Dog_ was released in 2011. By 2012, the number of Kelpies dumped on shelters more than doubled. In 2013, this fallout was still ongoing, and we adopted Jess, dumped at under a year old, from a special farm dog rescue facility. These dogs are not for the average suburbanite - you have to be pretty dedicated to keep one happy in the suburbs - a runner or cyclist who does many miles a day, or someone who walks and is also prepared to play with a ballthrower in a park, for at least two daily sessions. Also, you simply can't leave them alone all day, they need so much teamwork and mental stimulation to be happy.


And I agree with your analogy to Arabians, TBs and wild horses, and would add a fair number of STBs to that group - as they really want to move, and apparently many mainstream riders do not. STBs are generally easier as far as temperament goes than the above groups, but they have the same need to run and to work, like a Kelpie or other sheepdog, or a Dalmatian.

I never quite got this when I was young, as I was naturally drawn to the highly strung, goey type horses - being like that myself! :rofl: I couldn't think of anything worse than riding slowly through the countryside all day long, it would have killed me with boredom, and also killed my backside to sit for that long - I need to move too... So I tended to get stuck onto the lively horses at riding school once I found my feet, and then of course the French Trotter mare my family bought was very keen to move - as well as sensible and unflappable, a blessed combination. And when she was taken away from me as a riding horse, I bought an Arabian filly, and the rest is history. I used to see other horses dawdling along and wonder what was going on with them, and their riders. :rofl: And of course, I hung out with other people who wanted adventurous horse rides, rather than a sort of tame merry-go-around experience. It was simply my normal.

Only as a reasonably mature-aged adult did I realise that most people with horses nowadays actually don't want to ride like that! It was quite a revelation. I'd always assumed it was just that people needed to progress further with their riding skills, and then they too would be deadly bored by the prospect of merely perambulating around the countryside on horseback. They'd be wanting to do the flying trot, to gallop flat-out at least once a ride, to jump obstacles, to do flying changes, to ride in gymkhana games, to chase down villains, and even to do handstands and other tricks on horses like our @*Knave* !  

I can't think of anything sadder than a lively horse who wants to really move and really see places being ridden by someone who just wants to plod along, and maybe never go on a trail. It's like people keeping a sheepdog in their suburban backyard, and not taking it out. I think it's really commendable to be awareness raising around these issues, as you're doing.

In my response I've focused mostly on the underexercising of breeds that need to move, but I agree also with your assessments of temperament etc.

Loved the case studies! So interesting. Thank you! 

:charge:


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> I couldn't think of anything worse than riding slowly through the countryside all day long, it would have killed me with boredom


Ah yes. At one time that was me and motorcycles. If someone wasn't running at least some of the "advanced" equipment and taking soil samples at least two or three times per ride, I didn't want to ride with them.

Now I look back and wonder, "Where was I, what was I thinking?"

I wonder if Roman and other Kelpies and Dalmatians would show the energetic sides they show if running all day every day with a pack of dogs unconfined. I'm sure they'd be energetic to a degree, but I suspect some of the exuberance is a result of the degree of confinement they experience.

Same for the energetic horses. I camped for three summers East and SE of Carson City, Nevada where band of wild horses roam and frequently came upon them and always stopped to watch for an extended time. Had no idea then I'd be here with my own horse back then.

I have no idea of the various breeds that made up the bands but I do recall one wearing a halter? Anyhow, I never observed any frolicking about by any of the horses until they spotted me and would hurriedly leave in a somewhat organized manner while the stallion remained for a time facing me to be certain I did not follow.

It would be interesting to observe a highly strung very hyper active horse turned loose with a band to see what behavior followed after fully incorporated into the band.


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## SueC

For what it's worth, @*Hondo* , and this may go some way towards answering your question, just taking the horses I have here from "standard" type yarding, to free-ranging in a real herd situation, has made them all so much more calm and laid-back - the three ex-stallions here (Sunsmart, Chasseur, Julian) had been in solitary confinement most of their lives and developed very ritualised behaviours like pacing up and down fence lines all day, and two of them (Sunsmart and Julian) had been very aggressive towards horses and people. Not anymore.

They are less spooky as well, but they still loooove their exercise. The three I am not riding go for little competitive races several times a day in fine weather, all around the bush tracks these days. They go there just to run. The 34-year-old isn't always joining in, but the others are deadly serious about their running and hi-jinks. 

By the way, age mellows us all I'm sure. As a 20-something I couldn't imagine wanting to go to bed after dinner. Now I do it on a regular basis, and what's more - I love it! :rofl: And if I can get to your age and be perambulating on horseback, I will consider myself very lucky. You're a great example to us whippersnappers. If there is such a thing as a middle-aged whippersnapper! ;-)


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## Hondo

There are few burdens heavier than that of being a "Great Example" 

I wonder if the horses would be engaging in racing one another if it had not been in their past. The horse retired from working an arrastra daily that walks in circles daily after retirement comes to mind.

I just returned from a 2 mile perambulation with the dogs and was thinking about my past dirt bike days. I'm theorizing it is not age that changed me.

I was raised on a small farm with a 1/8 mile driveway in a house that could not be seen from the road. My grandfather was also living on the farm with a brother to the North adjoining farm and another to the South. One of Dad's brothers was on a farm South of that.

Buffeted about by the circumstances of life found me living in the heart of the San Francisco Bay Area. That experience was a zillion times more confining than that in which I grew up. I'm postulating that the dirt bikes and mountains provided me with a frequent escape from that unfamiliar confinement. The actual violence that sometimes is associated with the riding, I postulate as a form of protest to the situation I found myself in.

I live now in many ways much less confined than when I was raised. And of course there is Hondo showing me the straight and narrow way to true perambulation excellence.


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## Knave

I like this conversation!! I too am drawn to the hot breeds of quarter horses. The cutting bred animals that have more ambition than thought process. Actually I think they simply think faster than I do. I love it. 

Bones with his mix of uber hot at times but also very kindhearted and always ambitious (unless a child is on his back) is super fun. He is so overbred though that he is very ocd and can kind of cross wires occasionally, which makes for some difficult rides. 

I actually think the mustangs I have been around tend to be less hot. They have a cold blooded aspect that would make them more similar to Zeus. Knowing Zeus, definitely this can lead to arguments. Lol. I can also see where you might struggle to make them work too hard @gottatrot. The reason I am interested in one has that aspect attached.

When I am working in the mountains and Bones is jumping up and down and pointing to cows or even making me pee all over my ******  it reminds me that those boring horses have a place. I would never like one in a corral setting, or when I am looking for that overthinking overworking excitement, but to have one for the days where it would be nice to just go and work in a slower setting... I can see the desire. I also think that for a kid like my girls (who have the experience to do so), something that can just do a job is a benefit. They can get better at the jobs without having to worry as much about their horsemanship in each moment.

I am fully aware that many of the bloodlines of quarter horses can have this aspect too, but I don’t really know them and also do like the cheap price tag of the mustangs. If I wanted to spent a lot of money it would be on another hotter style of horse.  I wouldn’t be able to help myself. 

Actually, I think Zeus will grow up and be exactly what we are looking for. It is just getting into something like him is very difficult and also more expensive. He is still out at least a year, but I feel his slower growth may actually make that longer. With Pete out he will have to be a main horse for little girl too, not something to fill everyone’s holes.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> There are few burdens heavier than that of being a "Great Example"


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ah, but with all that accrued wisdom comes responsibility! ;-)




> I wonder if the horses would be engaging in racing one another if it had not been in their past. The horse retired from working an arrastra daily that walks in circles daily after retirement comes to mind.


I'll film it sometime! It's not at all ritualised when they're on their own. It has become a bit ritualised sometimes when they follow me out on Sunsmart and all fall into actual racing configuration; then they are following a pattern. I think because a monkey is present! :rofl:

But when they're on their own, they are playing so much, as well as running, and doing things they would never have done on the racetrack, like kicking up their heels, doing little tricks, whirling about, bucking - and their facial expressions are _luminous_, rather than "this is business". On their own they are more like a bunch of racing-bred yearlings in a big paddock, who display exactly those behaviours, and a delight in speed and motion, well before they have ever seen a racetrack. Wild horses were natural movers - and the racehorse and endurance breeds I think have just concentrated those traits.


:gallop::gallop::gallop::gallop::racing:


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## SueC

...look at their faces!  But I'll film sometime, as promised.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I like this conversation!! I too am drawn to the hot breeds of quarter horses. The cutting bred animals that have more ambition than thought process. Actually I think they simply think faster than I do. I love it....
> 
> ...When I am working in the mountains and Bones is jumping up and down and pointing to cows or even making me pee all over my ******  it reminds me that those boring horses have a place....


Yes, and although I haven't managed it yet, I've always thought it would be great to have one horse that was hot and liked to work hard, and another horse that was willing to stand around, be gentle and take beginners for rides. I often would like to take a friend or family member along, but have not had a horse I could safely put them on.

I've been around some of those hot QHs. On occasion I see someone who wanted a slow trail horse and ended up with one of those, which is usually rehomed quickly. The interesting thing about a hot QH is that they can find homes more easily around here than a TB or Arab. People who are into gaming, rodeo or cutting know their bloodlines and those horses usually find their way to an appropriate owner. The sports that hot TBs and Arabs are good at are less popular around here.

Interesting about STBs. I have not been around enough of them to comment, because they are rare in the western U.S. The harness tracks are in the east. I met a couple doing endurance once. We went to a harness track in Saratoga, New York once and watched the night racing, and were pulled in an Amish buggy by one. 

Something I don't understand is how people even survive working with some of the hot horses if they keep them in stalls. Nala was a wreck when her owner got her, she had failed out of dressage down in California and was bucking everyone off. I can't imagine why they wouldn't try turnout as a first intervention for a horse like that. I know I would not have been able to ride Halla if she hadn't had turnout with other horses to burn off half her energy.

The barn owner at my last barn had a house on top of a hill overlooking the pastures. She put the TB boys in a pasture together, all the Arab mares in another, and stock horse geldings and mustangs in a third. She said the TBs would every once in awhile gallop together across the field. The stock horses would just walk around all day. She said the Arabs looked like butterflies, flitting back and forth across the field all day long, worse if the wind was blowing. 

I remember once I was watching my friend's QH while she was on vacation. I tried putting her in the big arena with my two Arabs, and thought I'd lunge them all around together. The Arabs ran around like crazy, but after a couple minutes the QH came to the center with me and we stood together watching the Arabs go around us. 

Soon we may be doing the opposite of @Hondo - he learned to ride a horse as an older adult and DH and I are thinking of learning to ride motorcycles as older adults. We will not be getting Arabs or TBs, but will be getting QH bikes for beginners. LOL.


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## Knave

It would be hard to find a spot for a thoroughbred or Arabian around here like that too. I’ve only been around a few thoroughbreds, they were ottbs, and they were both kind and gentle. One was given to my father-in-law after a race. She was so particularly ugly it was shocking, and my husband and I took her home for work. She knew nothing about mountains, which was understandable, but was kind of refusing to learn. She was so friendly though, probably one of the friendliest horses I’d met. My sister-in-law ended up taking her for a family horse, because they wanted the gentleness of her and were willing to tolerate a horse who didn’t do well in the mountains. I heard she went lame sadly.

The other was also especially gentle in my esteem. He was used by a girl who couldn’t really handle the hot cow bred horses, and he took good care of her. He was fine in the mountains. I was always told thoroughbreds had better minds that way, and I’ve always believed it because of the only two I knew:

I worked at an Arabian ranch for a while. I loved all but one of the horses there. They were super talented horses, and won many large titles. The one I didn’t like was a cross breed and I don’t know why he was there. They were good though, and I liked their effort.


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## Knave

Oh, I wanted to add that I am at a loss about that too! How a horse that is super hot can even be managed in that environment astounds me. Sometimes I wonder what I am missing in that idea, but I know good and well I couldn’t handle Bones if he were in that situation. I put him in a small corral once and he self-mutilated for 21 hours straight, so I took him out. I realized the vet had no idea what she was asking, and when I was told he should learn to deal with it I said that you can’t disipline crazy. Like beating a child with autism, it wouldn’t work and would be completely unfair. Even a not crazy horse though, like some of the others I’ve know would be impossible to deal with.

On another side note, my grandfather has ridden so many horses in his life, and he tells the best stories. Anyways, he said his favorite horses were cow bred horses with a bit of thoroughbred in them. He says adding some thoroughbred gives them a better mind.


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## bsms

To give examples of two atypical animals:








​ 






​
Lilly was a purebred Arabian, 5-6 years old when we got her. The trainer we hired took 3 months to break her. Then I rode her for a month, and then my youngest started taking lessons on her. Lilly expected to be treated politely, but as a green broke Arabian mare she was fantastic! Very sweet, incredibly patient, eager to please. I still wish we had kept her and gotten rid of Trooper!

Then there is Jack the Border Collie:








Jack the Slipper, because he is content to lie down next to your feet. Infinitely patient with kids. Lazy, relaxed, just happy to hang around people. Totally unlike any normal Border Collie. He'll play if asked, but sees no reason to waste energy. Outstanding house pet. 

I'm very content to mosey, but I think it is because of where I ride. I assume ANY fall is likely to be my last. If I had more room for an arena, I'd love going fast. I'd really love to have a 1/2 mile track to run the horses on. But not in the desert here. A few miles north of me, there is desert without rocks and without a lot of cactus. I just haven't tried riding thru 2 miles of human neighborhood to get there! I'd sooooo love a beach to race down! I think Bandit would too. Mia would have gone insane with happiness! But I think Bandit accepts that our terrain makes it dangerous to run fast, and is enough of a practical mustang gelding to change his habits to match where he lives.


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## Knave

Hindsight is such a frustrating thing @bsms! I am sorry you sold her, she looks lovely. The Arabians at the ranch I worked at all would have kindly handled kids excepting that obnoxious cross bred horse. He was a jerk. Maybe a couple of the hotter ones would have been a bit much, but they were well broke and dependable for sure.

Funny at my house the two hottest horses love kids. They bring it right down and babysit. Bones actually frustrates my oldest because she can’t get him away from that babysitter mode. Lol. I haven’t tried him outside for them though, he might not be quite as focused there.

I wouldn’t know what to do in a cactus type environment. I’m sure that is frustrating.


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## Hondo

I've mentioned a friend about my age that was a sure enough cowboy in his youth, riding broncs and even buffaloes in rodeos. Was the go to person for bulls. Told about riding 75 miles one night when he was 14 YO which included swimming a wide river to avoid the bridge.

Well, he had a stroke 10 years or more ago which he said affected his balance. And he turned to motorcycles. I went with rides and helped him decide using mine what was best suited for him. So yeah, we both switched also in opposite directions. 

I'll have to admit that before Roman came on board, I was a little bit skeptical when reading about some of the antics of what yall call the hot horses.

But there are time that Roman will take off around the house by just giving him a look. Leaning into corners at a 45 degree angle with his "tires" spinning. After one or sometimes two circles he will stop and look expectantly at me and ask, "Want me to do it again?" At the slightest suggestion from me he'll be off again.

So I've decided my knowledge has just been limited to the mostly mild quarter horses of this ranch. The hot horses sound a lot like Roman the Kelpie/Border cross.

Edit: Statistics indicate that the first 6 months of motorcycle ownership are the most dangerous and the best advice in my opinion for motorcycle safety is to literally ride as if you were totally invisible, which in many cases you actually are even though someone seems to be looking directly at you. They are looking for cars and literally do not see you.


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## Knave

@Hondo I think we are all limited by our own knowledge of things. A ranch I once worked at also had very nice broke “boring” type horses like I now want one of.

It sounds like your friend was very interesting! I personally am kind of scared of bikes. I know I shouldn’t be, but the only time I really tried to ride one as a kid I kept wheelying (I’ve no idea how to spell my made up word) the whole thing over. 

There are a lot of bikes around here. My husband, father, uncle and nephews all ride them (dirt bikes) and my oldest girl is saving her money to buy one. If she does I will have to give it a try again. The guys’ are so big!


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## Hondo

I rode dirt bikes almost exclusively. But I wound up riding alone much of the time as not many preferred the terrain I preferred. I tell my old riding buddies, "Now I always have someone to ride with", which by that I of course mean Hondo.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> Oh, I wanted to add that I am at a loss about that too! How a horse that is super hot can even be managed in that environment astounds me. Sometimes I wonder what I am missing in that idea, but I know good and well I couldn’t handle Bones if he were in that situation. I put him in a small corral once and he self-mutilated for 21 hours straight, so I took him out. I realized the vet had no idea what she was asking, and when I was told he should learn to deal with it I said that you can’t disipline crazy. Like beating a child with autism, it wouldn’t work and would be completely unfair.


I'm seconding that point @*gottatrot* made and @*Knave* is reinforcing, about turnout - I can't understand why that's not the first intervention either - give them space to run properly, and at least one buddy to do that with. And also, let them actually work under saddle - and if you don't like that pace and intensity, then sell to someone who does, and buy something more pedestrian.

About that self-mutilition, one of my favourite horses ever, Chip, a STB stallion whom I co-trained with conditioning rides and even rode in endurance a little while, was one of the funniest, cleverest, most mentally switched-on horses I've ever met and was so delightful to work with, he was so expressive all the time, and had such joy in life and in seeing the world. And then he was retired, and stuck into a paddock, by himself, separate from everyone else because a stallion, and he just mouldered. He got depressed, and he started pacing the electric fencelines obsessively, and then he started self-mutilating - taking whole chunks out of his flank while spinning like a dervish.

I wish to God I'd had the management of him, but he wasn't my horse, and much as I would have liked to have integrated him into the herd here and seen him happy and social and with exciting things to do at his fingertips (well, hoof-tips), for his twilight years - it was not to be, and he is a mere shadow of who he was, and this is one of the saddest things I've ever experienced in my life. :frown_color: Such a good horse, and punished with such hell.

Julian was going down the same road. At least I got him out.

@*Knave* , I don't think horses like Chip and Bones were crazy at the outset - I don't think their technicolour, larger-than-life, turned-up characters are craziness, but I think they are more prone to developing craziness, like self-mutilation, if they are kept in conditions that don't let them explore and work and have sufficient mental and physical stimulation and socialising. They are the polar opposite of an ISA Brown chicken - you know, the battery hen breed, which is a turned-down, dull sort of chicken which can cope better with the privations of life in a cage. And some of the horse breeds today are actually like ISA Browns - not too bright, happy just to eat and stand around in the same place, not that interested in moving or exploring, very "whatever" and pliable. So I guess a lot of people are interested in ISA Brown type horses. And then there's us. :rofl:

PS: A semantic point: Above I am distinguishing "pathological crazy" from the other use of crazy, the good-crazy _joie de vivre_ and antics of horses like Chip and Bones, and people like ourselves. ;-)


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I'll have to admit that before Roman came on board, I was a little bit skeptical when reading about some of the antics of what yall call the hot horses.
> 
> But there are time that Roman will take off around the house by just giving him a look. Leaning into corners at a 45 degree angle with his "tires" spinning. After one or sometimes two circles he will stop and look expectantly at me and ask, "Want me to do it again?" At the slightest suggestion from me he'll be off again.
> 
> So I've decided my knowledge has just been limited to the mostly mild quarter horses of this ranch. The hot horses sound a lot like Roman the Kelpie/Border cross.


Yes, spot on - and you should see our Jess and Sunsmart egging each other on when riding! :rofl:

Loooove that description of Roman's antics!  Isn't is such fun to have a lively animal like that around? (Or two or three... :rofl

I used to play chicken with my Arabian mare when I was a kid. I'd come home on the Friday night from senior high school in Perth and want to warm her up a bit because it makes it easier on a horse to go riding next day. After being cooped up in the city, I just wanted to run too, so instead of lunging, I'd take the mare back out of her stable and to the biggest running paddock, with trees in it, and I'd start off by running with her on the lead, circling trees, etc, and then let her off the lead, and she and I would just give each other sideways looks and race off in different directions, and I'd sneak up in a very obvious and theatrical way to her, and pretend-hide behind a tree, and then jump out from behind it, and she'd kick up her heels and race off. And then I'd hide somewhere and she'd come near me, and I'd jump out from behind the tree and pretend to spook away from her. :rofl: And this sent her into fresh conniptions of bucking, heel-kicking and racing around.

And just a look could provoke a response, just like with Kelpies/BCs! :happydance:


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## SueC

...and just a clarification for what I said to @Knave above (as I'm past editing deadline for that post), Bones already self-mutilated when you got him, right? And as far as I understand, your management of the horse has done much to reduce the problem already. And if he'd never been bored or desperate enough to pick up that pathology in the first place, I doubt he would have started at your place, with all the work and attention you give him.

Great posts, loving this chat and reading people's thoughts. Must go trim hooves, sneak a ride, then garden and fandangle food... have a great evening all, on the other side of the world. :cheers:


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## Knave

@SueC, yes he was a self mutilator before I bought him. I didn’t know until I got him home. I’d never seen anything like the horse I took out of the trailer. He squealed at his imaginary friend (a real jerk this friend), kicked and bit himself and tore his leg open on the side of the trailer. We were all watching like what in the heck is going on?

I had noticed his knees when I bought him. They looked like goat knees, but I made an assumption that he was a horse who reached under fences. Later I learned that in his past life he often fell onto his knees in a self-mutilating craze. I have managed it to the best I can, and rarely does it rear its ugly head anymore. I worry for him during his time off. I kept him tired and fit...


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## gottatrot

> *@Hondo:* Statistics indicate that the first 6 months of motorcycle ownership are the most dangerous and the best advice in my opinion for motorcycle safety is to literally ride as if you were totally invisible...


Thanks for the good advice. We've been reading a lot and watching videos. For some reason I've always wanted to own a motorcycle, even though I've only been behind other people on them. Not a thrill seeker but am attracted to "fun." Our thought is to buy a used, less powerful bike and learn to ride discreetly in parking lots (DH has some experience but from many years ago), then take our driving tests, then test drive and get the ones we want to own.



> *@SueC:* I don't think horses like Chip and Bones were crazy at the outset - I don't think their technicolour, larger-than-life, turned-up characters are craziness, but I think they are more prone to developing craziness, like self-mutilation, if they are kept in conditions that don't let them explore and work and have sufficient mental and physical stimulation and socialising...
> 
> ...PS: A semantic point: Above I am distinguishing "pathological crazy" from the other use of crazy, the good-crazy joie de vivre and antics of horses like Chip and Bones, and people like ourselves


It makes me feel warm inside to think about Julian having you, and Bones having @Knave. 

Yes, we're the "good crazy." And I say my horses are crazy sometimes. But it's "good crazy." 
I think people have a low tolerance for "neurodiversity" in animals as well as humans. 
I saw a very good video on FB that brought up the idea that neurodiversity might be good for our genes and what we consider abnormal such as autism and ADHD could be thought of as normal variants. 

Something I heard once really stuck with me, and it was the idea that we're all on a varying spectrum of being joyful vs depressed, lethargic vs energetic, thinking clearly vs dwelling on unhealthy thoughts, etc. Yet we've set this line where things suddenly become abnormal. If you were one step back, you could be considered normal, and one step forward, psychotic. So to me it says we're all steps away from psychosis, LOL. It makes me accept that I don't have to be always in one state, but it's healthy to go up and down the line. And if someone steps over for a moment, that doesn't mean they'll stay there forever. 

I'm learning to accept people for being neurologically diverse from me. That doesn't mean they all can do the same job, safely. It doesn't mean I can stand being around them all the time. But they can still be great people. Horses too! 

Today was _very hot_ for us. 75 degrees F (24 C) at 6 p.m. - it tends to get hotter at the coast as the day goes on, and often we get the highest temperatures in the evening rather than when the sun is high. 

Nala's rider and I rode carefully since the horses have most of their winter coats in already. They didn't breathe hard at all, but did sweat a bit toward the end. 

I'm getting so desensitized to bucking that sometimes I'm sort of lackadaisical about it now. Nala did a little galloping, Hero tried to run faster but was left behind. He'll try to spurt off but can't, so gets tripped up, then bucks. Then if I'm not too apathetic I give him a little spank with my flat-ended crop, he straightens out, and then canters awhile. After a few strides we tend to do it again, until we catch up closer to Nala.

It was nice being on Hero, since we were able to go in the ocean quite a bit on such a warm day. He ignores the waves when they crash on his legs. Nala, having hotter blood running through her veins, still jumps a little sometimes. I was suspicious Hero was thinking about laying down to roll in the water, so we kept going in and out whenever he tried to paw.

Amore will do anything to avoid water. It used to amaze me; I'd think, there is _no way _we can go around this puddle, it takes up the entire trail. But she'd manage to get part of her hooves on 1 inch of dry ground and slink around the edge without getting wet. Of course she'd smash me into the bushes, but that was beside the point. 

Today we had a whole pack of four big dogs come running at us. I understand letting your dogs run loose for exercise, and etc. But letting a whole pack run off toward horses or other people? Oh well, it was obvious as they got closer that there was no leader and they were just a pack of goof balls. The closer they got, the more confused they were about what to do after the initial mad rush, so before they reached us they split up and wandered off in a few directions. 

The horses had a good wash down after the ride.


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## Hondo

Hmmm......is this why elementary children go screaming and jumping all over the place when turned out of confinement for recess?


@gottatrot Even though you haven't asked, I STRONGLY recommend enrolling in a professional/paid for motorcycle safety program.

I commuted for years rain or shine in the SF Bay Area on 4/5 lane freeways. And from that experience, in which I never experienced an accident, I worry anytime I hear someone thinking about taking up street bikes.

Remember, a minimally simple fender bender in an automobile can result in an airlift on a motorcycle.

I know you are safety oriented but I had to get that off my chest.


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## Hondo

Another comment aimed at @gottatrot Not a thrill seeker? Just like fun? Ha! I have seen pictures where the visage of your face was, although joyous, went far far beyond joyous. I would say you looked thrilled. I'm betting the horses know it too.

Ok, I'm now crawling back into the woodwork.

Heehee


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Hmmm......is this why elementary children go screaming and jumping all over the place when turned out of confinement for recess?


Yes! 

And look what happens when people create a better system. Caution: You may weep tears of pure happiness! inkunicorn:












:happydance:


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Another comment aimed at @*gottatrot* Not a thrill seeker? Just like fun? Ha! I have seen pictures where the visage of your face was, although joyous, went far far beyond joyous. I would say you looked thrilled. I'm betting the horses know it too.
> 
> Ok, I'm now crawling back into the woodwork.
> 
> Heehee



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Even though you haven't asked, I STRONGLY recommend enrolling in a professional/paid for motorcycle safety program...


Oh yes, very aware...I've looked at a lot of videos and pictures of accidents to get that into my brain. Unfortunately, the only programs around here are the two day safety classes required to get your license. They are supposed to be very good, but I also want to have a little practice going in so I can focus and learn rather than just trying to manage the clutch and throttle.



Hondo said:


> Not a thrill seeker? Just like fun? Ha! I have seen pictures where the visage of your face was, although joyous, went far far beyond joyous. I would say you looked thrilled. I'm betting the horses know it too.


OK, ha, ha. I guess I should have said I don't do things where the risk of death is beyond what I deem acceptable. No base jumping for me. 
Of course you all probably know the stats:


> Horseback riding is even more dangerous than motorcycle riding, as it carries a higher injury rate. According to one Internet report, on average motorcyclists suffers an injury once every 7,000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours.


https://www.kyforward.com/keven-moore-on-insurance-horseback-riding-even-more-dangerous-than-motorcycle-riding/

Horseback riding is the sport that causes the most traumatic brain injuries.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/horse-riding-leading-sport-related-traumatic-brain-injuries/story?id=38090435

Well, we kayak also and two people have died in our county kayaking in the past several years. One was just in a lake. 

I guess you have to balance enjoying your life with taking too much risk, but it's also quite risky in the long run to sit in front of the TV eating junk food - that'll kill you for sure. 
It's far more rare for me to take care of someone in the ER who was in an accident from skateboarding or surfing or riding a bicycle than it is for me to take care of someone suffering from the risky behavior of eating too much and not exercising. It's even more common than that to take care of those suffering from the effects of smoking, alcohol and drug use.

I think there should be some song about hoof trimming in the dark - one of my pastimes I participated in tonight. The headlamps nowadays are so good, sometimes you forget it is dark. So very satisfying to trim your own horses and see the hooves improving over time. It's great that Amore can still hold up her hooves for long periods of time at age 27 1/2. Well, as long as she has food in front of her that is.


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## Hondo

Pushing on: From the first article posted, "Horseback riding is an extremely rewarding and thrilling sport,"

I rest my case

Agreed. I'm fond of mentioning to people that the easy chair is the most dangerous thing in a home.

To be accurate in you personal assessment from your experience with injuries from forms of high activity vs the sofa, a correction should be made for the number of people participating in the active sports vs sofa and make a per capita estimate.

That said, I have no doubt that cardiovascular disease and diabetes would win hands down.

Side note: It's so depressing when my spelling is so bad that spell check cannot even make a correct suggestion. In those cases highlighting and searching on google has to be resorted to. And so far, google has been able to make a correct guess on what spelling was being attempted.


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## Hondo

@SueC That's pretty much what my pre-teen recesses looked like. But I was living on one of many marginal 40-80 acre farms surrounding a town of under 1,000 population and with under 30 total classmates.

In areas of high density populations with huge schools and a high percentage of sue prone parents, it just doesn't happen. Too bad. There are just too many people.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Of course you all probably know the stats:
> 
> https://www.kyforward.com/keven-moo...g-even-more-dangerous-than-motorcycle-riding/
> 
> Horseback riding is the sport that causes the most traumatic brain injuries.
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/horse...ed-traumatic-brain-injuries/story?id=38090435


I think those statistics are terribly wrong. "Riders4helmets" may not be the best source of statistics, and the "Internet source" cited is an older study of English riding in England. The riding world in the US is quite different. And does this really pass the smell test? "_By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours._" Most of us ought to be having serious accidents every couple of years, if true.


> the authors retrospectively analyzed sports-related TBI data from adults (age = 18 years) across 5 sporting categories—fall or interpersonal contact (FIC), roller sports, skiing/snowboarding, equestrian sports, and aquatic sports....
> 
> RESULTS: From 2003 to 2012, in total, 4788 adult sports-related TBIs were documented in the NTDB, which represented 18,310 incidents nationally. Equestrian sports were the greatest contributors to sports-related TBI (45.2%). Mild TBI represented nearly 86% of injuries overall. Mean (± SEM) LOSs in the hospital or intensive care unit (ICU) were 4.25 ± 0.09 days and 1.60 ± 0.06 days, respectively. The mortality rate was 3.0% across all patients, but was statistically higher in TBI from roller sports (4.1%) and aquatic sports (7.7%)


First, why limit sports to fighting, roller sports, skiing, swimming and riding? Horse riding represented 2154 TBI incidents over a 10 year period, or 215/year. 3% mortality, so...6 deaths? Maybe? Except 3% was the average and a couple of the sports were higher, so maybe 5 deaths a year? Including jumping, which is a horse sport with very high rates of head injury - at least 10 times higher in every study I've seen, with some indicating the number may be much higher than that.

Motorcycle deaths run 4-5,000 a year. Of course, more people ride motorcycles than ride horses. But if I had to choose between taking a fall at a canter along one of our rocky desert trails, or laying a bike down on the Interstate...I'd prefer to fall at a canter! OTOH, I'd feel pretty safe riding a dirt bike at relaxed speeds in the desert. I'm just not willing to spend the money on one! BTW - my daughter's one fall was at a canter off-trail in the desert, without a helmet, and she was shaken, not injured. Luck played a role. But I'd much prefer any fall in the desert to any fall on a highway!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I think those statistics are terribly wrong...Most of us ought to be having serious accidents every couple of years, if true....But I'd much prefer any fall in the desert to any fall on a highway!


Yes, and agree with your thoughts on your journal about having our information filtered vs filtering it ourselves. I don't want someone screening out "truth" for me, I want to weigh everything myself.

When I read the statistics, I wondered what constituted a serious accident. If it was every time I fell off a horse, then my stats would be way up there. I've watched video of motorcycle riders wearing appropriate gear and sliding 30 feet and getting up with just a scrape. But I consider motorcycle riding far more dangerous than riding due to the high rates of speed. 

That being said, for myself horseback riding is probably going to be more dangerous. I'm not going to ride a motorcycle on any freeways, only rural roads with 55 mph speed limits. Any areas with more traffic will have very slow speeds. I'm going to wear full gear, gloves and a full face helmet.

If we're talking serious accidents on horses, I would consider anything with broken bones or ER visits. Actually, I'd probably screen out some ER visits, such as someone I heard about several weeks ago who went to be seen because her arm was sore after a fall. That's not something I would consider a serious accident.

I personally have not had a serious accident every couple of years. But if you included my pool of acquaintances...let's say in the past three years in a sample of 100 riders in my area I could tell you about two concussions, a broken femur, broken ribs and a broken wrist. I guess I'd say I personally have seen a serious horse accident or known someone in a serious accident every couple of years. The percentage is still pretty small compared to how many people ride.


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## bsms

The problem with horses and accidents is kind of like the problem with crime statistics.



> The worst 1% of counties have 19% of the population and 37% of the murders. The worst 5% of counties contain 47% of the population and account for 68% of murders. As shown in figure 2, over half of murders occurred in only 2% of counties. Murders actually used to be even more concentrated. From 1977 to 2000, on average 73 percent of counties in any give year had zero murders."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/n...54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/​





> Horse riding carries a high participant morbidity and mortality. *Whereas a motor-cyclist can expect a serious incident at the rate of 1 per 7000 h, the horse-rider can expect a serious accident once in every 350 h*, ie 20 times as dangerous as motor cycling. This depends on the type of riding. A Cambridge University study of 1000 riding accident hospital admissions has shown:
> 
> * One injury for 100 h of leisure riding
> * One injury for 5 h for amateur racing over jumps
> * One injury for 1 h of cross-country eventing"
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/3101280


Hmmmm...one injury involving a hospital admission for every 100 hours of leisure riding? About a month after I got hurt dismounting Mia, I went to a hospital to make sure nothing was broken. Nothing else in the last 10 years. Nothing for my family.

My THEORY is that accidents occur at some fairly low rate for anyone involved in riding, and go up as the rider takes on more difficult horses and activities that require maximum performance from the horse. What I was doing with Mia was, for her, "max performing" her - taking her way outside her comfort level because I assumed trail riding was something ANY horse could do. VS Littauer and the glorious Australian saddle were all that I had going for me, but I'd never try to do it again! It wasn't fair to her or safe for me.

I think motorcycle riding is like that. Or like crime statistics. There are places I'd feel perfectly safe riding a cycle - rode them a lot in my 20s, including daily to work. In city traffic or on a freeway, like my BIL does daily? You couldn't pay me to do it!

With Bandit? I feel pretty confident he'll let me know if it is a bad time to ride him. He also accepts that dismounting means I'm going to make him safe. If he is tense, I'll let him know I'm about to dismount, and he'll be, "_Why yes! Good idea! Get on the ground and take care of me!_" That is good enough for me.

PS: Motorcycles don't scare me. The idiots in cars around me are what scare me. Like Hondo said. They DO NOT SEE YOU.


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## Hondo

I think some caution needs to be exercised when forming conclusions based on what seems to be an obvious common sense conclusion.

Traveling at 55 MPH is safer than 70 MPH for instance.

Back when the US had a mandatory National speed limit of 55 MPH, some traffic engineer noticed a higher traffic accident rate in his city after the new speed law. He got curious. He checked other cities. Same thing. These were cities with freeway systems.

As it turned out, people were taking an arterial road of say 45 MPH rather than the 55 MPH freeway which was farther leaving the 45 MPH arterial as the fastest route.

Freeways have a much lower accident rate than arterials. There is more visibility, more controlled entrance and exits, no traffic signs, lights, left turn lanes, etc.

When the National 55 MPH was done away with, the trend reversed. 

The mantra back then was "55 SAVES LIVES". Should have been "55 COST LIVES"

What I'm getting at is the fact that the country roads can, may well be, and probably are more dangerous than the freeway with the higher speed rate.

I was told jokingly in a serious way early on that horses are an exercise in awareness. Same for motorcycles.

Many years ago some highway engineer decided that the ends of guard rails were dangerous for cars running into. He decided the ends should be buried. No studies done. Others hailed the idea as a genius example of common sense. The mantra became "Guard rails should STEER you not SPEAR you.

Many many years later some non-common sense highway engineer did an assessment of accidents where guard rails were involved. It turned out that the rails being buried caused more overturned vehicles and increased the severity of many accidents. Guard rails are no longer buried on the ends but angled away from traffic and also have impact absorbers. But it took many years for common sense to be turned over.

Statistics is a wonderful tool that like any tool can be misused. But to challenge a statistic on personal opinions without seeing how the statistic was produced is troublesome.

I've heard the horse vs motorcycle challenged many times, online and in person during conversations. But I have never seen an article or statistic that challenged the comparison. I read an article once about a study in the UK regarding the injuries to various professions or trades (not sure of the classification). A farrier came out on top as the most hazardous. That and other studies lend credibility, in my mind, to the statistics comparing horses and motorcycles. But still, the common sense part of my brain sees groups of motorcycles barreling down the freeway and that common sense part of me says, "that's gotta be more dangerous".

Personally, I have close to half dozen broken bones from riding motorcycles, plus one T plate and 5 screws in my right wrist at present. Many of my old riding buddies are carrying metal also. There have been many deaths in off road competitors.

Based on my personal experience, there is no way horses are more dangerous. But study after study tells me I am wrong and that my experience only represents my own personal microcosm.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> My THEORY is that accidents occur at some fairly low rate for anyone involved in riding, and go up as the rider takes on more difficult horses and activities that require maximum performance from the horse.


People scare me when I'm on a horse too, because they don't think at all about what might happen if they let all their dogs loose to run at you, or fly a drone over your horse's head, or dive bomb a kite three feet away.

This is a tricky one for me, because I've had a lot of accidents with horses so my first impulse is to agree with the statistics. I think it is more like the crime rates, that a few of us have more of the accidents. That can be from what we do with the horses and the type of horses we ride, but also I think some people just get hit with more freak things. 
I read a story online about a guy who was bitten by a rattlesnake, mauled by a bear and bitten by a shark. However, he was not in my mind engaging in very risky behavior!
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/04/odds-of-man-bit-shark-bear-snake-dylan-mcwilliams-animals-spd/?user.testname=lazyloading:c

My co-worker who was riding Amore when my horse tripped and fell flat on her chest and neck, resulting in severe concussion, had previously been on a well trained and mellow horse when something fell from the rafters in an arena, her horse backed and managed to flip backward over the arena wall, just missing landing on top of her. That also gave her a concussion. Thankfully, both times she was wearing a helmet.

The accidents I've had with horses that resulted in my worst injuries were all three from getting kicked. Once I was following a horse on a narrow trail when Amore spooked and ran into the horse's backside, and the horse kicked me in the shin. I have a little nerve damage there. Another time I went behind a horse standing loose, and he double-barreled me with no warning (we found out later he had tics similar to Tourette's). And the third time I was simply getting my horse in a field and a horse I didn't know turned and kicked my thigh. Some torn muscle fibers from both of those exchanges. 

Needless to say, I'm more careful when around loose horses, but I also had three concussions that all came from my early days training Amore, and that is when I started wearing a helmet.

I've had quite a few accidents that were definitely from riding hot, spooky or untrained horses. Most of those have not resulted in any serious injuries. 
I've also seen or been involved with so many freak accidents that I have concluded that they just happen with horses and there's nothing you can do about that.
I've seen a horse step on his shoe, tear it off and trip himself, throwing the rider into his path and running over the top of her.
I've seen a very calm horse suddenly smash his head to the side and whack my friend's head into the side of a trailer.
I've seen horses somersault, and fall down at the walk and trot. So many crazy and unpredictable things I can't even mention them all.

My philosophy is that it's good to try to be safe, but there are no guarantees even if you suit yourself in body armor and only go near bomb proof horses.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...But study after study tells me I am wrong and that my experience only represents my own personal microcosm.


Actually, maybe not. The studies people TALK about do. But there are a lot of studies showing horses are not particularly dangerous. Those don't get much mention, maybe because studies are often discussed in articles about wearing helmets. For example:


> "_Fortunately, horse-related fatalities are relatively few. For example, horses were involved with the deaths of 43 people in New Mexico between 1993 and 2004, a span of 11 years. [Note: 2-3/year involving head injuries] For comparison, 298 fatalities were due to car crashes in New Mexico during 2015 alone. Over the decades approximately 60-70% of horse-related fatalities have been due to head injuries. Other factors involved in horse-related fatalities included spine injuries, crushing injuries, and the involvement of an automobile_."
> 
> Equestrian Injury Statistics
> 
> "_During 1992-1994, a total of 9409 TBIs occurred in Oklahoma, of which 109 (1.2%), including three deaths, were associated with horseback riding; 23 other TBIs were attributable to horses but were not riding-associated._"
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00040635.htm
> 
> "_Of all the horse riding activities, according to Silver (2002) and Paix (1999) jumping is most likely to produce an injury, and according to Paix (1999), the cross country phase of eventing is more than 70 times as dangerous as horse riding in general, with an overall injury rate of one per 14 hours of cross country riding....
> 
> ...In a study done by Sorli (2000) to determine the demographics of hospital admissions and mortality associated with equestrian activities in the 33,000 riders in British Columbia, he found that the mean number of yearly admissions was 390, with head injury the most common cause of hospital admission (20%). [Note: thus the injuries that might have been helped by a helmet work out to 78 out of 33,000. or 0.24%]..._"-- A profile of horse riding injuries in adult horse riders Kwa Zulu Natal Horse Society (PDF file on my laptop, don't have a working link any more)


"_the 33,000 riders in British Columbia, he found that the mean number of yearly admissions was 390"_ - That would be a bit over 1/1,000 chance of being admitted to a hospital each year, which is lower than I would expect to see from riding.

One also needs to consider the type of injury. I would agree people who mix with horses accept a higher risk of broken ribs / shoulders / arms, or significant soft tissue damage like mine - 6 months of major pain and 9 year of frequent pain, only gradually fading away. I said "mixing" because I've been hurt more dealing with horses in the corral who were fighting, or injured, etc. The first farrier we had, a great guy, had his back broken by a horse.

From my perspective, if I break an arm riding or handling horses, that is OK. I'll accept the risk in exchange for the reward. And I might believe the risk of breaking a bone in horses is equivalent to the risk in motorcycles. 

What bothers me is a risk of life-changing injury or death without anything I can do to minimize the risk. That exists at some level with horses, like the farrier who broke his back. At some level, it would exist if I bought a dirt bike to ride on the local trails, but it would be minimal. What stops me from using motorcycles daily are the idiots who have come close to killing me in a car. The folks who will pull into your lane without ever seeing the motorcycle. There is also what can happen if you hit a patch of sand with both tires instead of two tires out of four.

Of course, my BIL does it and has done it for years. His last motorcycle accident was 30 years ago, so either he is incredibly lucky or skill can manage a large part of the risk I perceive. FWIW, a horse in South Africa bolted with him years ago and he won't even TOUCH a horse. Arguably, I have a false perception of risk involving motorcycles and he has a false one involving horses! :think:

PS - I don't have it now, but the statistics for injuries while DRUNK around horses are pretty high, too. IIRC, something like a third of injuries in some states have involved people riding horses while drunk.


----------



## SueC

I see you lot are increasing the height of my reading pile again! :rofl:


----------



## bsms

^^ I was about to read your journal, @SueC, but I'm so far behind I need to return to it when I have more time. :cheers:


----------



## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I admire your fortitude, @bsms - have you read _War & Peace_ as well?

I am barely staying on top of reading my favourite subscribed threads' additions... one day, when I retire, I'll have to read everyone's journal I frequent from the actual beginning... but like @Hondo, I am such a slow reader...


:dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05:


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## Hondo

Quote: ""Fortunately, horse-related fatalities are relatively few. For example, horses were involved with the deaths of 43 people in New Mexico between 1993 and 2004, a span of 11 years. [Note: 2-3/year involving head injuries] For comparison, 298 fatalities were due to car crashes in New Mexico during 2015 alone. Over the decades approximately 60-70% of horse-related fatalities have been due to head injuries. Other factors involved in horse-related fatalities included spine injuries, crushing injuries, and the involvement of an automobile."

Comment: This has absolutely no meaning or significance at all until the number of hours riding and driving are included with deaths per hour calculated. Same for the other articles.

Quote: " But there are a lot of studies showing horses are not particularly dangerous."

Comment: So far I have been unsuccessful in finding even one of these on Google.

As always, IMHO & YMMV


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## Hondo

"Fortunately, horse-related fatalities are relatively few. For example, horses were involved with the deaths of 43 people in New Mexico between 1993 and 2004, a span of 11 years. [Note: 2-3/year involving head injuries] For comparison, 298 fatalities were due to car crashes in New Mexico during 2015 alone. Over the decades approximately 60-70% of horse-related fatalities have been due to head injuries. Other factors involved in horse-related fatalities included spine injuries, crushing injuries, and the involvement of an automobile."

I don't think this has much meaning without the hours of each activity being used to present hours per death of each.

"But there are a lot of studies showing horses are not particularly dangerous. "

So far Google has been able to find any of these studies.


----------



## Hondo

What the??? Thought I had lost the first post. Shrug.........


----------



## Hondo

SueC said:


> but like @Hondo, I am such a slow reader...


I know I've said that often, but reading it made me stop and ponder. Now I've decided I'm NOT a SLOW reader. I'm simply an analytical reader which requires me to stop at the end of each speedily read sentence and ponder for an extended time. At times my ponderance may even lead to a perambulation.


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## SueC

Yes, and I learnt the term from you: Analytical reader.  Because I can't read without thinking about all sorts of things to do with the reading either. 

Pondering leading to perambulation sounds excellent. A workout for the mind as well as the body!  My husband says he often perambulates in order to increase the quality of his pondering. :happydance:

You're such a lovely bunch of people...


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## Hondo

My theory is that the perambulation while pondering increases the blood supply flowing to the brain thereby enhancing the clarity of said pondering.


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## tinyliny

@Hondo, you and my dad would have made good friends. He had a delight in words, as do you. I love that quality. It's fast disappearing.


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## tinyliny

SueC said:


> Yes, and I learnt the term from you: Analytical reader.  Because I can't read without thinking about all sorts of things to do with the reading either.
> 
> Pondering leading to perambulation sounds excellent. A workout for the mind as well as the body!  My husband says he often perambulates in order to increase the quality of his pondering. :happydance:
> 
> *You're such a lovely bunch of people.*..



Amen, Sister! I am here, late at night alone. this is when I most appreciate the personalities that I've encountered on HF. I know some say it's a waste of time, and God knows I've wasted HOURS here! But, just knowing and reading the fun things you guys write has added such a delightful jewel to my crown of life. Just knowing that you are out there, . . . in Australia, in Maine, in S.America, in the Southern Us, in the Rocky Mt.s (USA), . . . doing your 'thing', makes me feel that other people are not just 'scenery". . they are the SCRIPT of the play.


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## SueC

@*tinyliny* , are you a night owl? Like @*gottatrot* ? 


I don't know it's a waste - certainly not compared to watching television!  I guess it becomes a problem when you get "stuck" when nothing is happening, or when there is something else you should be doing. That's happened to me, but less so as the years have gone by. The psychological keyword there is "intermittent variable reward"! :rofl: Brett is on the Dr Who Forum. :tardis: His crowd isn't nearly as interactive - they're sort of remote and nerdy. :rofl:


How's your holiday planning going? Can you convince your DH (and yourself) to come stay with us as HF buddies, and see the lovely South Coast? Or are we too weird for you? ;-) You are most cordially invited. I promise I won't throw any emojis at you. :rofl: I just smile a lot in real life, and tease people. 

I also undertake not to prank you (unless you wish to be pranked!).

You could look at it as redeeming Brownie points for all that annoying work moderating. I mean, there have to be some positive spin-offs, no? ;-)


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## Hondo

I don't understand the night owl thing. A friend once declared, "I'm not getting up when it's still dark!" If I don't get up before daylight, I feel most of my day has been lost. At 7 or 8 I'm nodding off.

Wonder if there are any studies to determine if there are genetics involved. Strange, but there are definitely those two classes of people.


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## Hondo

Google: Seek and ye shall find.

https://www.livescience.com/16334-night-owls-early-birds-sleep-cycles.html


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## tinyliny

I don't like getting up early, at the time. But usually, once I am up, I appreciate the beautiful morning.


As the day comes to a close, I have cooked dinner, eaten, cleaned up (and when my kids were little, done all the 'get the kids ready and into bed' bit), and NOW, it feels like it's finally MY time. 



So, once I start into a project on MY time, I don't want to stop . . . until 1am or later.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Google: Seek and ye shall find.
> https://www.livescience.com/16334-night-owls-early-birds-sleep-cycles.html


Interesting about the biological clock being set genetically. 
Even when I was young, I hated going to bed early. Once I was old enough to figure out how to sneak it, I started staying up late. My mom would see a light so I would use a small lamp or flashlight so I could stay up reading. 

The worst job I ever had was as a late teen, working the early shift at McDonald's. I didn't mind the work, but trying to get to sleep early was terrible, and then waking up so early (4:30 or 5 am) - if my alarm clock literally gave me an electric shock or burned me it wouldn't have been any less painful. College was tough too, with nursing clinicals starting at 6:30 a.m.

My first nursing job I worked 2:45 pm to 11:15 pm. Oh that was heavenly. Even if I didn't feel like going to bed right away after my shift, I could still sleep until 11 am or later and have time to go for a horse ride or do some shopping before work. For the last 15 years or so, I've done 12 hour shifts, 7-7:30 which most hospitals prefer. For a few months, years ago, I tried day shift on for size. It was terrible. On more than one occasion I found myself in the medication room at around noon or so, and realized I could barely remember what had happened earlier in the day.

An issue I have is something called "sleep drunkenness." Some people's brains come directly out of sleep, but some people take a period of time to get out of it.
https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/news/20140825/sleep-drunkenness-is-common-and-linked-to-other-behavior-issues#1
For example, if my alarm went off and I tried jumping right up and walking off, most of the time I would have an ataxic gait and trip, fall or run into something. I also feel like I'm in a fog that slowly lifts over a period of time, often taking two hours. Working on day shift I would barely be conscious by the time I walked into work. 

I've read a lot of information about night shift workers being less healthy and causing stress to their bodies by working at night. Just from what I've seen with co-workers, I am guessing many people are unhealthy because they are forcing themselves to stay awake against their natural state. Not only that, many people who work nights follow stupidly unsafe practices. 
I like this quote from Hondo's article: "We know sleep is not a bad habit," Brown said. "It can't be kicked."
Despite this, I will see many people behaving as though sleep is an optional activity, or one that can be put off until a more convenient date.

For example, I can't imagine someone who works days scheduling appointments in the middle of the night. The equivalent of what I've commonly seen would be for someone to work 7 am to 7:30 pm, then schedule a hair appointment for 1 am, then show up for work at 7 am the next morning to do another 12 hr shift. Can you imagine how they would feel? The thing is, people often get away with acting sleepy at night, even if they are not alert enough to do their job safely just because of their own stupid behaviors. 
But people should realize that there are many of these people driving around after staying up 36 hrs, and also taking care of your loved ones. 

I personally feel that 99% of our patients are cherished by someone, and the other 1% should be cherished by us. So if for some reason I couldn't sleep well enough to where I feel like I could handle taking care of someone who is very sick, then I call in sick. The minimum I get is 7 hrs, most often 8 or 9. I certainly wouldn't want anyone taking care of my parent who was having a stroke or going into a life-threatening arrhythmia while they were half asleep. And bodies don't reserve the right to get critically ill for the daytime hours.

Well, it's 12:30 am and I'm getting off my soapbox, but I'm quite awake!!


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## Hondo

Interesting also about the confusional arousal. Have never really experienced that. I'm a little slower getting up these days but in the past I was always fully awake at the same time my feet hit the floor. Awake and ready to go!


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## egrogan

I'm like a teenager, I really need 10-12 hours of sleep each night to feel good the next day. I've always joked that since I'm not a morning person OR a night owl, I have to be uber productive between 7-7 to keep up with the rest of the world. Most days I can pull it off. I was the same way throughout college and grad school- I can't recall ever pulling an "all nighter," and I was definitely not the life of the party. People tell me I have one of those faces that can't hide when "I'm done"- my friends in college would always look at me around midnight at a party and tell me it was fine that I was ready to leave :hide: 

I've also found I'm extremely sensitive to the natural light, so these transitional times of year are tough when it's dark later in the morning or earlier in the evening. I have no problem getting up around 5am in the summer to go do morning feeding for the horses and chickens, but this time of year, it's a real struggle to drag myself out of bed at 6:30 when it's still pitch black. And don't get me started on how miserable I am when it's getting dark at 4:30pm, which it soon will be!


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## gottatrot

My DH is like you, @Hondo - instantly awake. He also falls asleep within seconds, but it takes me awhile to go down into sleep. I've often wondered if people who fall asleep quicker tend to wake up quicker. I also sleep very heavily and don't hear a thing. 
@egrogan, I wonder if it is genetic to require more sleep. Do the people in your family sleep a lot? My parents and siblings all sleep 8-11 hrs daily, and I definitely feel like I can't get by for more than a day or two on less than 8. It seems like people in the US are prejudiced against sleeping an adequate amount. It seems like animals are so different, with horses being awake almost all of the time, and cats sleeping almost all of it. 

Ugh, the time change here is coming up November 4th. It's not the light that bothers me, although I know people get seasonal affective disorder and such. But for me, to get outside in daylight in the dead of winter I have to short myself sleep, which I am not a fan of. 

My very strong opinion is that the change affects night shift people the most, and since we're already doing everyone a favor by working the hours nobody wants, can't we just keep that little bit of daylight in the evenings instead of taking it away for four months? I want us all to be like Arizona and Hawaii!!


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> @*egrogan* , I wonder if it is genetic to require more sleep. Do the people in your family sleep a lot?


 My dad (now retired) was career military, and he was definitely an early-to-bed and up early guy during his working years. He'd go to bed _extremely _early, around 7pm, but he'd be at the barracks by 4am to do his physical training and then at his desk around 5:30. My mom now works in hospital administration so has a normal 9-5 type schedule, but when I was growing up, she was a labor & delivery nurse and worked the 3-11 shift. She'd come home and watch the late news before going to sleep, but was then up early with us to get us ready for school, etc. So she seemed able to sleep a little less.


And PS- I so wish we could get rid of the daylight savings changes!


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## SueC

egrogan said:


> I'm like a teenager, I really need 10-12 hours of sleep each night to feel good the next day. I've always joked that since I'm not a morning person OR a night owl, I have to be uber productive between 7-7 to keep up with the rest of the world. Most days I can pull it off. I was the same way throughout college and grad school- I can't recall ever pulling an "all nighter," and I was definitely not the life of the party. People tell me I have one of those faces that can't hide when "I'm done"- my friends in college would always look at me around midnight at a party and tell me it was fine that I was ready to leave :hide:


What, you lasted till midnight? I couldn't! :ZZZ:

Allnighters? Night clubs? Those are for different species than the one I belong to, I think. :rofl:

And now I'm middle-aged, I often like to go to bed straight after dinner. I love my bed!  :ZZZ:




gottatrot said:


> @*egrogan* , I wonder if it is genetic to require more sleep. Do the people in your family sleep a lot? My parents and siblings all sleep 8-11 hrs daily, and I definitely feel like I can't get by for more than a day or two on less than 8.


I'm like you two there, @*gottatrot* and @*egrogan* ! Big sleeper. 8-9 hours most days to feel normal. In summer, if the light wakes me up too early, I start the day early and then sleep a couple of hours after lunch, when it's too hot and peak UV anyway.

My hypothesis is as follows: It's because of our big, well-wired brains, ladies - and because of how active those brains are. Then they need more "disc defrag" time... more REM... :Angel: :ZZZ::ZZZ::ZZZ:


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## Hondo

Ok Yall. It's 6.44 PM. Time for the bed cloths and wander off to bed. See yall about 3 AM.


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:










Goodnight and rest well! :ZZZ:


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## gottatrot

Here's what we night owls were up to tonight:


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## SueC

Oh, that's a _super_ clip, @gottatrot - and the music is perfect! :loveshower:


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## gottatrot

Ugh, though...
I adore Hero, but I saw that this video was dated exactly two years ago and it made me severely miss *HER* - the _fire_ and endless life of her. My Halla. Best horse I ever rode. 

https://youtu.be/hwo0xZi4p**

I am about halfway through writing her book...the sequel to Amore's story.


----------



## SueC

Oh, I'm sorry, @gottatrot. :hug:


They always stay in your heart.  Mostly this is good, but sometimes it hurts.



By the way, the last link there comes up _404 not found_ for me.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> By the way, the last link there comes up _404 not found_ for me.


I know you loved your Arabian mare too. :hug:

Something weird with the forum, any time I type in capital q the forum changes it to an asterisk. The address to the video ends in two capital Qs, and the forum won't let me add the link with those in there. Whenever I save it, the capital Q x 2 changes to **. Anyway, it's an old video with Halla just loving galloping on the beach. When the 404 not found pops up, if you change the last ** to Capital Qs instead, it should play. :shock::shock:


----------



## SueC

Yeah, that worked! Lovely clip and music. Those Arabians just seem to be so super-aware and super-turned-up and tuned into things around them. Watching Halla reminds me of my Arabian mare - the ears playing all the time, noticing everything, looking this way and that, really being there. Sunsmart is a super horse, but much more laid-back and sensible. Riding my mare was like riding a powderkeg. A perfectly safe to ride, _communicating_ powderkeg, but you always had the feeling you were on a rocket engine preparing for liftoff. 

When I've lost someone I've loved, one thing that's really helped me is the thought of being a living memorial of that lost being - your life became better, you became a better person, and you can really _wear_ that in memory of someone. I find this is also true of deceased (or living) authors, poets, inventors, etc; people you've never met who've made a big difference to you somehow, and who have affected your humanity. Well, I can live a little bit more for each one of these people, and beings, who contributed to the positive about me. And when you think about it, this includes the animals we _eat_ too - to respect them is to live in memorial to them too, somehow - to understand we are all connected and we all go the same way, but still our lives have meaning.

The things you've loved about someone are usually things you aspire to as well, and so they've helped you become. My mare taught me so much about life and love and freedom and _being_. Special people have too. I want to honour all these people, living or dead. Where would we be without these?

The one thing that does survive is love.


----------



## SueC

PS: Funny thing about love. The First Law of Thermodynamics is that energy can't be created or destroyed, but can be transferred, and can be changed from one form to another. Maybe it's the same with love. It may change form, but it is always passed on somehow.


----------



## Hondo

I rode Hondo in the pitch black dark while wearing a light on my forehead. About 1 1/2 miles. I was saying if I get back alive I'll never do this again. Looking back I don't know why I didn't just lead him. I'm sure the shadows from the light were scaring him to death.

That was before I even owned him and knew less than nothing.

I think it would be fun to do some moonlite riding but I'd prefer to get up a little early, say 2 AM, and go riding then return for a hearty breakfast.


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> I think it would be fun to do some moonlite riding but I'd prefer to get up a little early, say 2 AM, and go riding then return for a hearty breakfast.




:rofl: You're killing me, @Hondo! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Knave

I have ridden many times in the dark for work. There is a joke around here about my family, “their cows have to be snuck up on in the dark.” Lol However, @Hondo, I am as bad as a horse and cannot stand when someone pulls out a flashlight. It messes with my eyes and theirs; I assume they see better than I do in the dark. 

General would get twiterpated (my dad’s word, also Bambi’s, but with different meanings) and lose his brain if someone had a light. It made me really leery about them, and almost got me into a big wreck once.

I wish I had done more riding on the other side of the dark @gottatrot, but really I almost never have been horseback much after the sun has set. 

I am sorry you are missing your mare. Are your writing a real book?! I had a mare I often think of and miss. I used to ride her in my dreams long after she was gone, but lately it has been Bones I am running around on.


----------



## SueC

I'm a little late responding to this on account of the amount of reading I sometimes have to catch up on.



gottatrot said:


> OK, ha, ha. I guess I should have said I don't do things where the risk of death is beyond what I deem acceptable. No base jumping for me.
> 
> Of course you all probably know the stats:
> 
> Quote:
> _Horseback riding is even more dangerous than motorcycle riding, as it carries a higher injury rate. According to one Internet report, on average motorcyclists suffers an injury once every 7,000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours._
> 
> https://www.kyforward.com/keven-moo...g-even-more-dangerous-than-motorcycle-riding/


So that would be a serious accident every one to three years for the average riding horse owner, depending on how often and long they ride. I am aware that the statistics include non-owner riders, but I'm interested in how we as a group are comparing to average.

By the way, I'm not sure if they included non-riding accidents, but let's include them anyway, in this little survey of people frequenting this journal.

I'm assuming serious accident means a trip to the emergency department? Because if that is the case, I've only had one serious accident in 38 years of riding and handling horses - when I fractured bones three months ago.

The most serious accidents I've had that didn't involve an emergency admission were - and this is all of them:



When I was 9, a cracked nose from a slipping helmet in a fall off a horse in a group bolting situation on a trail ride at my riding school. I had surgery in my mid-20s to remedy the obstructed breathing this accident had caused.


When I was 14, my Arabian mare ran back suddenly while tied because startled by something, and the snap hook exploded. Fragments tore chunks of skin off my lower leg - I was wearing shorts because it was summer. No great harm done, but I have two side-by-side dots to this day where the chunks came out, which when people ask me what happened, gives me the opportunity to spin them a tale about an encounter with a vampire. :Angel:


When I was 21, I fell head-first off my mare on a bareback ride, straight onto a lump of wood, without wearing a helmet. I saw my GP after because of visual disturbances, and was decreed to have a mild concussion. I then bought a good eventing helmet.


At around the same age, another person asked me to troubleshoot their horse. I was doing a posting trot on him when he threw his hindquarters into the air without warning, and of course I was coming down in the posting phase when he did it. This impact permanently stretched some of the ligaments attaching the pelvis to the spine, which makes me prone to pinched nerves in the lumbar region if I don't do my Pilates and walking.


Also at around the same age, I got a permanent bone bump just under my left knee from falling into a gate with a horse - the leg was trapped between the horse and the steel pipe gate, and they needed pipe benders to straighten it out again. I had a massive bone bruise for a long while, and of course it ossified, hence the bump.


At age 38, I rolled my left ankle badly when jumping off a horse trying to attract the attention of someone whose landline I needed to use to call an ambulance for one rider in the group ride I was on who was 10km out on the trail with a broken collarbone. This person was leaving their property, and seemed to think my desperate waving was just a friendly greeting, so I jumped off without looking at the landing area, and landed on a boulder...


At age 47, I fractured three bones in my foot when I slipped off my horse in a low-velocity spook and landed at the wrong angle. That was my first ever trip to emergency because of activities involving horses.

That's seven notable injuries in 38 years of riding and horse handling, or one every 5.4 years - and only a single one of these required emergency attention. That compares very favourably to football etc, with its knee injuries, shoulder injuries, etc. 

How about the rest of the group? What were your significant horse-related injuries?





> I guess you have to balance enjoying your life with taking too much risk, but it's also quite risky in the long run to sit in front of the TV eating junk food - that'll kill you for sure.
> 
> It's far more rare for me to take care of someone in the ER who was in an accident from skateboarding or surfing or riding a bicycle than it is for me to take care of someone suffering from the risky behavior of eating too much and not exercising. It's even more common than that to take care of those suffering from the effects of smoking, alcohol and drug use.


This should be plastered up in town squares everywhere I think. People simply don't seem to think of things as risky when it's not an immediate risk of traumatic physical injury. I guess we have inbuilt fear responses around physically risky activities, especially starting a new sport where that is really obvious, like riding a horse, or downhill BMX racing. But it's hard to have any inbuilt fear responses around things with a delayed negative effect, like the heart attack after twenty years on a crappy diet and insufficient exercise, or the lung cancer that might happen in a few decades if you keep smoking. That's where people have to use their brains, their rational thinking, to see and to prevent these problems.

Brett and I remember this bizarre situation where we were down at The Gap in Albany:










There was a group of people abseiling off The Gap, and a few people watching, and then this tourist near us started trumpeting loudly to her companion what _idiots_ these abseilers were and that they should just fall off and die and it would be no loss. :eek_color: And Brett and I just looked at each other with our bottom jaws dropping to the ground. And we looked at the woman these words were coming from, who was clinically obese, and had lines of bitterness etched all over her face, and we both said, "If her lifestyle doesn't kill her, her bile will eat her; long before these fit and agile people who do truckloads of training and take numerous safety precautions will come to any harm. Meanwhile, taxpayers will be subsidising her ongoing medical expenses, and probably psychotherapy for her adult children, if she has any."

There is this saying that if someone points their finger at someone else, they should count how many fingers are pointing back at them. Rational thinking would go a long way in these matters...if only there was more of it...

Here's one of our State Emergency Services volunteers using abseiling skills for a search and rescue off The Gap earlier this week:


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> PS: Motorcycles don't scare me. The idiots in cars around me are what scare me. Like Hondo said. They DO NOT SEE YOU.


And these days they're probably texting too. :icon_rolleyes: 20 percent of West Australian drivers in a recent large survey admitted to texting while driving. Depending on how many aren't admitting it, that means 1 in 5 cars you see on the road will have a driver who texts while driving. :shock: 
@Hondo, loved that post on speed limits and safety, etc. Really interesting.

Still reading - great stuff everyone!


----------



## Hondo

SueC said:


> Originally Posted by bsms View Post
> PS: Motorcycles don't scare me. The idiots in cars around me are what scare me. Like Hondo said. They DO NOT SEE YOU.


I'd like to comment that when I originally mentioned people in cars sometimes simply do not see motorcycles that I did not intend that they were either idiots or texting but rather like the physiologically blind spot that we all have where the nerves connect to the retina, many people, perhaps all given a particular situation, have mental "blind spot of sorts" that causes them to only see what they are looking for with their brain filtering out other stuff.

I'm not explaining my thoughts well I'm sure, but the thing is I believe this can happen to intelligent, sensitive, and caring people. Not just idiots, if idiots do exist.


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## Knave

Ok, I think this is a good idea @SueC, because all of us can be prone to over analyzing risk. I have been riding from before I can recall. I’ve been flown out once, on my 30th birthday for my wreck with Partner which messed up my back. I asked him to work a calf when he wasn’t ridden down and I didn’t regard that he mentally handles cattle because we ask him to, but his honest opinion of them is that they are petrifying animals.

Truly I should have been seen at an ER two other times, maybe three.

When I was a small child there were two broodmares in a corral. I wanted to pet the colt of my Darcell. He ran around behind the blue mare, who irritability reached back to grab him. Instead she picked my little six or seven year old body up by the neck. She shook me around and threw me across the corral. I have had problems with this neck since, and an mri showed that it had been broken. The vertabre is floating and barely touches my spinal cord. It is possible that is part of why I get migraines.

When I was nine I rolled a mare chasing a bull. When I woke up she was passed out on top of me. All ended well, but the insane tired I felt as I crawled back to the road knowing I wouldn’t be found sleeping in the tall brush gives light to the concussion I must have had.

Another time we (my mother and I) decided to start a horse to a cart; I think I was 11. He was a gentle enough horse, and everything was going fine. My mother was hesitant to get in the cart, so I said I would. We didn’t check the tires and one was flat. When I got into the cart it started to squeal. That horse panicked and ran away. I tried everything I knew to stop him for a minute, but I had no experience with any of it and he was running blind. I decided it was time to get out of the situation, so unintelligently I stood and stepped to the edge to jump. I off-centered the cart and it rolled. I had pretty bad road rash, and the poor horse ended up pretty cut up.

No other wreck I have had is truly noteworthy. I’ve fallen with other horses, and had some very scary things happen, and once I kind of blew a knee up, but I haven’t been very hurt by them. They are the real story. Wrecks that I would only imagine the worse coming from and everything ended up just fine. We need to remember that too.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> ...I have been riding from before I can recall. I’ve been flown out once, on my 30th birthday for my wreck with Partner which messed up my back...


You see? Turning 30 really is _very_ dangerous!!! :Angel:

So you too have just one emergency admission in 30+ years of riding - and a couple that probably should have been. So your stats come out pretty similar to mine, and far lower than the cited average. Even if you count getting squished in the trailer the other week - did you get properly bruised, or just reminded that you have nerve endings?

And @*gottatrot* sits about there too, but no emergency trip, and @*bsms* and family, very low rate of injury. @*Hondo* , anything at all noteworthy?
@*Dragoon* , @*egrogan* , @tinyliny , anyone else reading - what's your injury summary?

I find this very interesting. Aren't we a careful bunch of people! ;-)


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## Knave

Oh, it is highly uncommon that I ever bruise @SueC. Lol. Maybe because my skin is dark and thick? I really have no idea.

Nope, once I caught my breath from having it squished out I was perfectly fine. After Beamer walked off his sore leg he was perfectly fine too. 

I’ve really had some doozies of wrecks that came out just like that too. I even had to have the horse I was riding sawed off of the roping box she high centered herself upon throwing a nervous tantrum. We were both fine minus a few scrapes. Many run aways and a few falls... nothing.


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## tinyliny

I have NOTHING that compares with any of those stories. 17 falls, and not a broken bone, or ER visit . . . ever.


You guys are basically nuts. Nuts to keep doing what you do, after those kind of experiences. I admire you, but, you ARE nuts.!


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> the physiologically blind spot that we all have where the nerves connect to the retina, many people, perhaps all given a particular situation, have mental "blind spot of sorts" that causes them to only see what they are looking for with their brain filtering out other stuff.


This reminds me of what I have been done on occasion this past year. Something like for example, I hear _someone_ walking through the bedroom into the bathroom while I'm in the shower. I know that it's my husband. My brain is even consciously thinking "DH is coming to the bathroom," yet still, when I turn around, I scream and jump in surprise. Then I laugh at myself, yet still it puzzles me. Being someone who's normally very level headed and more like a donkey when surprised than a horse (freeze and evaluate best course of action rather than sudden instinctual movement), this is very strange behavior for me. I've put it down to the extreme amount of hormonal changes I've experienced the past year.

Just reminds me of your "brain filtering out" statement, as I feel like in a way that is what is happening.


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> You guys are basically nuts. Nuts to keep doing what you do, after those kind of experiences. I admire you, but, you ARE nuts.!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh but @tinyliny, it's so much more dangerous hanging out with people than hanging out with horses! :Angel:


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## Hondo

Hmmm, when I walked away from dirt bikes I figured the age old fire ring pastime of war stories about past injuries would be in the past. Seems to be a bit of an overlap in some areas between the two chosen pastimes.

I tend to believe that the highest frequency of accidents or injuries occur with beginners, many of whom decide to abandon said pastime early on. Those that forge on eventually acquire skills that reduces the rate and severity of injuries. And so the people that frequent this journal are not at all representative of a cross section of equestrians. So until I am able to examine exactly how the statistics were assembled, I'll personally be hesitant to question them.

For myself, I had one significant injury to my right shoulder in the first six month and it still hurts some even as I type this. I flirted with becoming one of those early beginners that abandoned said volatile and dangerous equine pastime but stumbled onward.

No more injuries to speak of since.

@tinyliny 17?? You actually keep track? I do remember all of mine, details and all, but not sure I could at 17. But maybe so.


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## egrogan

tinyliny said:


> I have NOTHING that compares with any of those stories. 17 falls, and not a broken bone, or ER visit . . . ever.
> 
> You guys are basically nuts. Nuts to keep doing what you do, after those kind of experiences. I admire you, but, you ARE nuts.!


haha, I totally agree with this. I've had some falls with bumps and bruises, but *KNOCK RAPIDLY AND WITH CONVICTION ON WOOD* none that have resulted in an ER trip. There are three memorable falls that I can still see happening in slow motion, as though I was watching them:

1. I'm probably 7 or 8 years old. Taking lessons at a fancy saddleseat barn but riding a cute little pony mare (Misty) on a hack outside with my lesson group. Had maybe cantered once or twice in the ring. Hack line heads up a hill at a nice trot- as the horses build momentum, my pony breaks into a canter and unbalances me. I tumble over her head and land on my back. She freezes instantly. I'm laying on the ground, looking at her carefully holding her front foot in mid-air rather than put it down on top of my chest. In my memory, it seemed like I laid there forever looking up at that little hoof. But I'm sure it was just seconds and I rolled out of the way, collected my reins, and somehow scrambled back on. Oh- and in my mind, that hill was like scaling Mount Washington, but in reality, it was probably just a little mound 

2. A couple of years ago, after I had moved Izzy to our last boarding barn, we were out on the woods trail happily cantering along, when she tripped hard on a rock and went down to her knees. I sailed over her head, and took the full force of the fall on my face- for some reason, that reflex to put your arms out never kicked in. :shock: I'm sure I broke my nose as I had two black eyes for a couple of weeks. I can also remember laying on the ground moaning for a few minutes but still had the reins in my hand and Izzy stood right over me looking very concerned. She stood stock still for me to remount, and we made it back to the barn fine. It was a rare to have a weekend afternoon when the barn was empty, but no one was there when I got back so I just got Izzy turned back out and headed home. On the way home, I was driving a narrow dirt road, and a massive tricked out pickup truck came flying around a corner going 20mph too fast for that road, forcing me off a road half into a ditch. I smashed into a huge rock that shredded my tires, and had to wait on the side of this desolate dirt road for a tow truck to come get me, while my head was pounding and I was still dizzy from the fall. A couple of hours later, I made it home and started icing my face with a bag of frozen corn. By the way, my lovely husband was off on a Caribbean guys weekend celebrating a college friend's 40th birthday, so I was all by myself for that adventure!

3. I've written about it a few times, but Fizz falling on ice in the woods last winter was by far the scariest fall I've had, mostly because a horse actually falling with me has been a fear of mine for so long. Fortunately we were both fine- I rolled off the side of her when she fell and got out of the way, and managed to drag her onto a snowy spot so she could regain her footing off the ice. I walked home with my legs shaking but we were both ok.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I tend to believe that the highest frequency of accidents or injuries occur with beginners, many of whom decide to abandon said pastime early on. Those that forge on eventually acquire skills that reduces the rate and severity of injuries. And so the people that frequent this journal are not at all representative of a cross section of equestrians. So until I am able to examine exactly how the statistics were assembled, I'll personally be hesitant to question them.



Yep, that explanation works, and my little survey was about comparing this group's accident rate to that reported average. So we can preen ourselves about how careful and skilled we are! :angel2: ...well, so we can see that taking care actually ends up showing up rather significantly in the numbers as well. 



> For myself, I had one significant injury to my right shoulder in the first six month and it still hurts some even as I type this. I flirted with becoming one of those early beginners that abandoned said volatile and dangerous equine pastime but stumbled onward.
> 
> No more injuries to speak of since.


That's great. Do you have Tiger Balm Red in the US? It's so good for those little niggles after injuries like that, and it smells great - all natural, and inexpensive. I'm now in the age group that passes on anti-niggle tips! ;-) My other big anti-niggle tip is an electric blanket for the cool season. Do you have any good tips to pass on? You were drinking some kind of juice at one point, no?


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## SueC

mg:, @egrogan, No.2 was really nasty! I'd read about the two others, remember those well. 

I will say that my one emergency department visit was from something completely low-velocity; just bad luck. And the radiographer told me that most people she's seen got that particular injury from slipping in the bath. It was such a minor incident, it was ridiculous to have ended up in ER, it was just the wrong landing angle. In my 20s I somersaulted with a horse when gallopping into a wire strung across the track, and by all rights we should both have broken our necks but walked away just a bit bruised. I've fallen several times with horses, and just got lucky, the same way I just got unlucky with this minor incident. (Just like the motorcyclist I met in fracture clinic with a broken arm, who'd _slipped in his chicken coo_p...)


I think @*bsms* was talking about jumping and risk. I jumped a fair bit as a kid, and had two incidents which I am relating because they are funny. The first was falling head-first into a large snowheap when a horse jumped after initially coming to a screeching stop to sniff the obstacle (a fallen fir tree) - impersonated a kangaroo, straight up and over, just as I was thinking of turning him around for another run-up. The second was when I was jumping bareback on a horse with a high wither (same horse actually), got airborne in the jump myself, and crashed down right smack bang on the wither when landing - now that wasn't funny at the time, but it is in retrospect. :rofl:


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...I tend to believe that the highest frequency of accidents or injuries occur with beginners, many of whom decide to abandon said pastime early on. Those that forge on eventually acquire skills that reduces the rate and severity of injuries...


There are conflicting statistics on this. I'd summarize it as very new riders are higher risk, as are experienced riders trying to do difficult things. I've posted a thread collecting a number of statistics here:

*A collection of horse riding injury statistics*


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## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> @*tinyliny* 17?? *You actually keep track?* I do remember all of mine, details and all, but not sure I could at 17. But maybe so.





I have a lot of spare time. Yes, I do . I can remember each and every one. Since I've been riding in the same equestrian state park for 20 years, most of the falls occurred there. I'll ride by , with a friend, and say, "Oh, I fell off over there". . . . "yeah, that little morgan mare dumped me over there" . . . 



"got spun off of Mac over there". It's like a map of "Places I have fallen off".


EAch one is so special.


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're not a paper journal keeper, by any chance - present or past?


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## tinyliny

@*SueC* I am not self disciplined enough to have kept a journal for very long. I'd start, and then give up after a week or so.


I had this thought the other day . . . (unrelated) . .


Ok . . I don't believe in an Afterlife. I just don't. I think when you die, physically, you are gone. perhaps your spiritual 'matter' goes back into the ethos, the spiritual cytoplasm of all living things, yet to come, and is reborn? h m m . . . I doubt it.


So, that means that we live on only in the memories of those who have known us, or intimately known OF us. So, that after my children die, I will cease to exist. Ok, assuming I die before them, I will continue to exist in THEIR memory, and possibly somewhat in the memory of any grandchildren they might give me, but this 'thought' is based on how things ARE now, and I currently have no grandchildren. .. 



So, after I die, I continue to 'exist' in their memories, but once they are gone, it will, for the most part, be as if I never existed. I've created very little that will carry on, as a physical thing, beyond those living memory keepers. This is the truth for 99% of all human beings. We are a puff in time, a single blip on a string of twinkling lights, going off and on down the centuries. We think our life is so long that the bulb might wear out, or need changing. We think our life is the ONLY one. That when it's gone, the world will be changed. But, when my life is over, and no living being keeps it alive through actual memory, no "thing" really stands to mark MY on/off sparkle on the string of twinkle lights as being any different from the zillions that come before or after.


head tripping . . again. (I'm chuckling to myself as I post this. I amuse myself so much. I'm my own best fan!)


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## SueC

I think that's really profound, @tinyliny, and I guess my own way of coming to terms with mortality was recorded in the Flower Memorials piece I did on my journal around May, and re-posted in the HF memorials section. I'm basically taking comfort in the re-use of the building blocks of a body in other forms of life, and in the continuity of life as a whole. Because of where we live, I could really see that after losing another horse last year. It was lovely to think that she was now powering the flight of birds, etc. That's something. And that the flowers that we seeded around her body in May, which are now growing, are growing in part because of her - getting their nourishment from that.

We were just talking about death today and saying it's funny that many people get quite anxious about their life ending (and naturally so), but nobody gets anxious because their life didn't start earlier in history. I'd quite have liked to witness the 60s to see if they were as good as I imagine they were - the last time in history, perhaps, when you could actually believe things would get better. But I've never been _emotionally_ concerned with not being there _earlier_ - yet like most other people, I really don't like the idea of passing on, even though I accept it. And I hate losing significant people, like David Bowie two years ago - that was an actual shockwave - and I hate seeing people I love get old, and I wish I could magic them back into their physical prime. inkunicorn:

I do think love goes on, and has a sort of life of its own...

https://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page245/#post1970619025

One of my coming-to-terms songs was _Where The Birds Always Sing_. It's a lovely song, and it's not even an optimistic song, it's just a "this is how it is" song...


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## Knave

I think differently. I believe in God and heaven. If I didn’t death wouldn’t bother me at all actually. Who would care? I wouldn’t obviously. Lol. Luckily for me I also believe in Jesus and therefore don’t have to worry about death in that case either. 

Now, I too like the flowers as a memorial. I am an ashes spread on the mountain kind of a girl.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I think differently. I believe in God and heaven. If I didn’t death wouldn’t bother me at all actually. Who would care? I wouldn’t obviously. Lol. Luckily for me I also believe in Jesus and therefore don’t have to worry about death in that case either.
> 
> Now, I too like the flowers as a memorial. I am an ashes spread on the mountain kind of a girl.


I do too, believe the spirit lives forever but the body dies. Many people don't believe animals go to heaven, but I do. Why wouldn't they go on forever if we did? 

I agree with @tinyliny about our life here being a blip in time, and quickly forgotten. I also like to think about how everything gets recycled, and how the body becomes just matter. To me, once the spirit is gone it is just a body and the memories of the person or animal are what counts. But I also think of people as having moved on, like they were visiting here and now are in a different place. I don't really see graveyards as sacred places or anything like that. To me they're more like where a person left their shoes when they moved away. We can go visit the shoes and think about the person that left them, if we want, or we can just think of them from home.

Going along with my animals in heaven, I think @bsms posted this cartoon and I loved it.









I don't know what to think of this exactly...but I worked with someone who told me that the spirit has a weight. She told me to try weighing a person (on a bed scale) right before they died, and then right after. Being curious, I did try it several times. Weirdly enough, each time the person weighed slightly less after they were dead. Everything that came out of their body would still be in the bed, on the scale, unless something went up or evaporated. ????


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## SueC

I'm not quite sure where I am right now, @*Knave* and @gottatrot. I was, from age 14 and because of a profound experience, an unconventional, fringe Christian until around midlife - and never could take the dogma and hypocrisy of most organised Christianity. It's simply that the Gospels in many ways saved my life as a teenager, even more profoundly than music and books and art did - because the thinking and living portrayed there, and the idea of what love was, were so diametrically opposed to what was going on at home, and had a deep beauty I could not see elsewhere in the human experience. I needed to believe that, to survive the ice. And the ethics portrayed there were something I could admire and try to live by - and this is still the case, even now when I question whether there is a personal God, or whether God is simply love.

The personal God is really appealing to a lonely teenager looking for a loving parent they don't have, as I was - it's the loving parent to the power of a billion, and it rocks your world like nothing else, and completely rewrites your ideas on life, love and the universe, forever after, even when you start to wonder if it's something your own mind projected when psychological survival would otherwise have been seemingly impossible. Because your mind can do all sorts of things in attempted self-preservation. And I really grieved that realisation... I had really wanted that to be. But I will say that what I believe or don't believe thankfully has no effect on metaphysical reality - it's not like Schrödinger's cat!  And that it's still worth it even when you have probably ceased to believe in an archetypal heaven and afterlife. That the beauty is still there, and the profoundness, of the things you wanted to believe in literally but may not be literal. But not a personal eternity. Just love.


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## Hondo

I don't think we have the metal capacities to know answers to these questions. In fact, as I recall, in the Christian writings, the angel Lucifer was cast out of heaven for wanting to know it all.

Whether one is Christian or not, the story caries meaning. For anyone to make declarations of certitude either way are, I believe, making comments way way above their pay grade.

All that aside, I was very close to my Sister. I've read about contacts after death and I had some experiences after her death that I am unable to explain other than that she caused them to happen. A combination of prankiness and protectiveness that I've read about happening and that then fades away but may still be there waiting.


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## tinyliny

I would like to say that what I meant by 'no afterlife' is that I do not believe there is a PLACE where your soul goes, and continues some kind of existence, FOREVER (which is a concept no human can really understand) in any form that is like it was , in corporeal life.


I do not believe that we are like , beings, who look like ourselves, walking around in either heaven or hell, waiting for our descendents to join us, and connecting with our ancestors from eons back. Really?


That's what I mean by saying I do not believe in an afterlife, such as many religions describe. 



The energy that is the spark of life? it is always alive as long as the living appreciate being alive.


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## gottatrot

Thanks to everyone for feeling comfortable to share. Something I am positive about is that no one sees or experiences life in quite the same way, and that no one has exactly identical beliefs. Yet somehow people can form a strong dislike for another person who does not share their beliefs. I'm often careful about sharing because it's tricky to deal with people who are biased and throw out everything you say, because of one or two things you've said. 

As long as another person's beliefs don't affect my life circumstances, or threaten my safety, I think everyone is free to believe what they want. How that affects them personally is their own problem. 

Nala's rider and I went for a few laps around the property. It was supposed to rain heavily today, but a storm during the night blew the clouds away. 
Hero was hot. I don't think of him as a hot horse, because he isn't trying to run away with me most of the time. Yet today I have to say he was hot, because he was prancing and frothy and sweating. He never did settle completely, although we did a lot of hills and kept the horses' minds busy.

When I went to get the horses, both he and Amore came galloping in from the far side of the field, so I think the storm created some energy for all the horses. Hero was definitely galloping! For a couple hundred yards! I was happy to see it.

We leaped around a lot during the ride, and did a ton of cantering. It was quite fun, and we stayed on the property because Nala's rider had her two dogs along. One dog came out of the bushes and spooked Hero, and I'm not sure what happened exactly except I found my chest laid flat out on his neck for a second, my chin knocked hard against his skull between his ears, and then I was back in the saddle. That was certainly something I'd never had happen before. I guess he dropped and went backward, then came up to meet me.


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## Knave

Oh ick, I hope your jaw feels okay.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Thanks to everyone for feeling comfortable to share. Something I am positive about is that no one sees or experiences life in quite the same way, and that no one has exactly identical beliefs. Yet somehow people can form a strong dislike for another person who does not share their beliefs. I'm often careful about sharing because it's tricky to deal with people who are biased and throw out everything you say, because of one or two things you've said.


Yes, completely agree!  The reason I felt comfortable to share is that I was at "your house". ;-) Would have been comfortable to post this on @*Knave* 's as well, because I know neither of you are going to think less of a person for not having identical beliefs. But we have so much overlap. That's also why I was very comfortable teaching at Catholic schools much of my life, and had a real sense of community with them. I was looking at what we had in common, which for the non-career-Catholics is aspiring to kindness, compassion, thinking of others, gratitude for our lives and experiences etc.

But I wasn't ever comfortable with fundamentalist schools which wanted to interfere with my Science teaching curriculum, and were busy telling other brands of Christianity, "You're not real Christians, but _we_ are!" In fact, that's my number one gripe with much of organised Christianity - people saying, "We're more Christian than _you_ are!" or bagging each others' theology. Like children in the playground jumping on each others' sandcastles. "My invisible dragon is better than yours, _ner ner_!"

And people trying to tell others how they should be and what rules they should live by. To me, that was always between a person and God, and not between a person and equally fallible other people, who should be sweeping their own doorsteps instead of criticising other people's, thank you very much. To me, Christianity was about love, about a relationship with God and an openness to life, and about practicing kindness and gratitude and compassion, and wanting to learn, and the capacity to feel wonder, and loving thy neighbour, not just loving people who thought like you do theologically.

And if humans have spirits, then yeah, @*gottatrot* , why not animals. Although as a biologist I then go, "You realise this includes the mosquito and the roundworm and probably the malaria pathogen as well!" :rofl:

Despite of my current floatiness in relation to the spiritual, the concept of the soul is still important to me. I know it when I see it. But so much stuff is soulless, and some people appear to be as well. I guess it depends on how you define "soul". But _should_ you define soul? Can you, even? ;-)


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## Hondo

@gottatrot It's all the talk about statistics and accidents. I just knew it was bound to happen to someone. I was planning to ride Hondo tomorrow but now I think I'll wait. I remember what happened the last time I rode Hondo after you had a mishap.


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## SueC

...and I remember what happened the last time I rode Sunsmart after having roast chicken for lunch! I ended up in the Emergency Department! Should I be riding after having roast chicken, or is that tempting fate? ;-)


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## tinyliny

Don't mention roast chicken . . . one of my favorite dinners!
I'm glad you got out for a ride, Gotta. I can envision you two , cantering gleefully around.


I remember one ride, about 5 years ago, when I was only 55, my and my ol' buddy were going down the dirt road, and we picked up a slow canter, side by side. We are both normally rather sedate riders, but we cantered, side by side, and the hrose got that little bit, of "me first!" attitude.


She laughed and said,  "I feel like I'm back in Junior High!" We enjoyed it THAT much.


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## Hondo

@SueC Until it is scientifically proven beyond any challenges from peer reviews that their is no causal effect between roast chicken and horse riding accidents it may be prudent not to challenge fate.

Supporting evidence does however suggest that having thoughts about having an accident in the distant reaches of the mind could have a more profound effect on one encountering an accident than roast chicken. But I do admit, there needs to be more research.


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## SueC

Dear @*Hondo* , I thank you for your thoughtful and valued contribution to this subject. I also agree that increasing _n_ is important for obtaining increased statistical validity here. 

If I may indulge in a little speculation:

I think if I work _really hard_ at convincing myself that eating roast chicken :chicken: will increase my risk of a horse-related accident the same day, then my risk will indeed be increased, by a similar methodology to the one produced by the mere thoughts of accidents.

When I pondered the matter further, it struck me that eating roast chicken :chicken: had correlated with my horse behaving like a chicken :chicken1: and that this had led to the accident. An ontological link may indeed exist but is yet to be quantified.

Furthermore, it then occurred to me that the sudden random appearance of a live chicken :chicken2: on a trail could be expected to have consequences of even greater magnitude in conjuring the chicken-like qualities of my horse







:chicken1: than the consumption of roast chicken :chicken: by his rider.

This then leads to the obvious question: Does the consumption of roast chicken :chicken: reduce the chances of a live chicken :chicken2: appearing randomly on the trail? If so, then an extensive statistical analysis would have to be undertaken to settle the question of whether eating roast chicken would have a net causative or a net preventative effect on the accident risk to the rider (or whether these effects would neutralise each other).

Thoughts, observations, data points and further hypotheses by my most esteemed peers are always valued. inkunicorn:


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## Hondo

Dear @SueC , there are just so many variables to consider. How much roast chicken was eaten. Perhaps if enough were eaten, or perhaps enough of anything, especially turkey which contains quantities of tryptophan, an overall sluggishness could follow that would increase the chances of a mishap.

But to have unconscious thoughts of an accident happening is, I think, far more likely to result in an actual accident. I compare this somewhat with the well know DB rule to absolutely do not look at the object you would like to avoid for if you do look at it, your body will guide you directly into it.

The body it seems, sometimes has a mind of it's own and tends to follow that mind. And that mind that it follows may at times be an unconscious mind. There is in fact a lot of research in this area but there could always be more.

Some of these unconscious thoughts could also be connected to the self fulfilling prophesy phenomena.

Hondo seems calm outside. I'm tempted..............


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## horseluvr2524

@Hondo @SueC

y'all are funny. I managed to follow this one easily, but sometimes your scholarly senses of humor are over my head. Which is surprising since I have always been an avid reader and my favorite repertoire includes pieces like Pride & Prejudice, though I will admit that I had to read it a few times to get the full impact of the work.

I will say that the consumption of turkey at Thanksgiving dinner is directly correlated to a decrease in one's photogenic qualities especially as they relate to horses. I remember back when I was of the middle school age, mom and I got the bright idea to go out and take pictures of me on my horse directly after Thanksgiving dinner. I had stuffed myself of course, as most do on that day, and was bloated enough that the picture made me look pregnant! Ever since that day it has cured me of that unhealthy habit of eating until I feel "stuffed", which I used to reserve for special occasions, now I don't practice that at all.
@gottatrot

Sounds like a good ride! I always enjoy seeing horses feeling invigorated by a storm. It's almost like they are feeling the energy from the electricity in the air. There's something so powerful about the image of a horse galloping in front of an oncoming storm, the background lit by flashes of lightning.


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## egrogan

You all are missing the point-chickens have an uncanny way of summoning the ancestors to take care of those who threaten the flock :chicken: Ask my lovely husband why there’s been no eating of chickens in our house since we got our (pet) chickens-they cast a voodoo spell on you!! :chicken:


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> You all are missing the point-chickens have an uncanny way of summoning the ancestors to take care of those who threaten the flock :chicken: Ask my lovely husband why there’s been no eating of chickens in our house since we got our (pet) chickens-they cast a voodoo spell on you!! :chicken:


Point well taken! There's just so much we really don't know for sure.


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## Knave

You guys are silly. I do agree with @Hondo actually, that thinking of something is more likely to make it happen. I don’t know why though, so I won’t make a hypothesis.

As for chickens... those dang things. I remember the day I bought Bones. He was irritated in the trailer, and had thrown a fit the whole four hour ride (yes, this was telling of a few things lol). Finally he was being taken out of the trailer and two dang chickens came running to the door to meet him, and see if he magically made grain appear. He almost came uncorked then. We finally got him into his little pen where he would stay to meet the others over the fence. Those dang chickens went into the corral to see if there was grain there too. After he realized they didn’t kill him he sat down like they were cows and went to working them. Then I was happy. Talent! 

So yes, chickens are dangerous. Lately it has been cats planning my death.


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## SueC

@*Knave* , cats are planning your death? You have to tell us more...

@*horseluvr2524* , that's great storm imagery!  
@*egrogan* , if your chickens go back far enough they might be able to conjure up a dinosaur or two for their defense! :rofl:








:chicken2: :chicken: :chicken1: :chicken1: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken2:

Pretty handy trick to have up your sleeve! 

PS: An image of Archaeopteryx would have been more accurate, but way less cinematic...


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> So yes, chickens are dangerous. Lately it has been cats planning my death.


If cats aren't planning your death, they're planning the death of others.
Not sure if you've seen this oatmeal cartoon, but it explains it all clearly. 
How much do cats actually kill? [Infographic] - The Oatmeal
(P.S. I love cats.)


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## Knave

Well, poor Cash had never seen a cat. My friend made a good point in saying they are miniature mountain lions in his esteem.

Anyways, he was pretty snorty worrying about the cats. A massive colt doing the football shuffle is a bit intimidating. Everywhere I looked: cats. They fought and climbed the trees next to us. They were everywhere, even running under his belly. I was sure they would get me killed. Then he stepped on one when I was bridling him. Poor baby had been worried about bridling, it was the first time he kept his head there and was going to happily accept the snaffle, when he stepped on a cat. Screaming scratching his leg, and he was stunned beginning his football shuffle right on the top of the cat. 

The cat lived, Cash however took a while longer to be easy to bridle... he’s pretty desensitized to cats now. Lol


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## Knave

Oh, I also agree with your comic @gottatrot. Cats seriously lack empathy...


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## horseluvr2524

@gottatrot

:rofl:

I need to show this to husband and BIL. Husband prefers cats and doesn't care for dogs (but he's one of those that will get attached to near any creature. I recall my lizard bait cricket he named "Bob" and wanted to keep). BIL is convinced that all dogs are psychopaths waiting to snap and bite your face off because that is basically what happened between his coworker's wife and dog. Unfortunately, BIL has never experienced the joy that is a well trained dog because I swear the majority of humans including our extended family have no idea and simply don't care enough to train their dogs so those dogs really are just terrible. I can't stand my SILs basset hound. Tired of it snapping at me every time I shoo it away from my niece and nephew's dinner plates.

On that note ... I asked SIL why she never took her dog to puppy training class. "Honestly, we just didn't want to spend the money on it." Yet they have a huge house, several car payments, cable tv subscription, buy expensive clothes, you know the typical upper middle class suburban lifestyle. But you won't spend a few hundred to learn how to train your dog so it will be well behaved for its life? People ...

Sorry for the morbid tangent rant I went on there.


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## tinyliny

I like dogs, well enough, but cats? they fascinate me.!


Cats don't grovel, EVER. Cat's are not all about pleasing their feeders. Cats ARE affectionate, but on their own terms. Cats are a lot more like people than people are.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, your story about Cash reminded me of a horse named Duncan. When he came to the boarding barn he'd never seen a cat before either. He was a massive, 17+ hand draft, half Suffolk Punch. Beefy. There were baby kittens at the barn, and one came scampering around a corner into the barn aisle and he tried jumping on top of the barn owner who was leading him. She had to jump too, to save herself from being smashed. He was like, "I'm scared, hold me!" Then he was shaking for awhile, all terrified of the baby kitty. 

I've had cats sit between the boards and the siding along the wall of an indoor arena, and then jump over and into the arena, suddenly appearing from nowhere. That has created some very bad spooks from the horses I was riding! At least I haven't had a cat try to jump down from a perch onto my horse, which I have heard of happening. They truly are little mountain lions.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I am sorry you are missing your mare. Are your writing a real book?! I had a mare I often think of and miss. I used to ride her in my dreams long after she was gone, but lately it has been Bones I am running around on.


Yes, have now finished Halla's book. Whether it's "real" is sort of subjective, but I enjoy reading through the memories I wrote about Amore now and again, so put down many memories of Halla too. It is a compilation of stories about her life and personality, some of which will be familiar because I had posted them on the forum. 

Keep in mind if you read it that it may not be as interesting to sort through another person's memories of their horse. But I write books mainly for myself to read, silly as that sounds. I love reading so much that I write things to read later. 

I'd like to point out that the forum has some real writers who I would like to encourage to put together a book, because it is not difficult at all to take a Word document from your computer and make it into an Ebook on Amazon that you can read on computer or Kindle. It's free and rather entertaining. I am probably forgetting some obvious folks, and @SueC is already a pro, but @knightrider has some wonderful stories, and @Foxhunter's adventures are incredible, and @Knave could make a beautiful book straight from her journal. @bsms could write a book about Mia, or thoughts about horse riding and training.

Even after you read through a document several times, you can miss typos and tense issues, I see at least twelve I need to fix right now, so I apologize and will update the file. Feel free to point out issues if they bother you.
I write under a "nom de plume." 
I also have a fantasy book (mythical creatures and such) that isn't a horse story, which I wrote for my own amusement under the same name. @knightrider was kind enough to read it and critique it for me. She was very helpful to me, and read some of my "practice" writing that wasn't really fit for human consumption, and helped me sort some of that out.

I haven't figured out how to make the books free, but they are allowed to be free for 5 days, so you can download them until the 1st.
Amore's book is "Round Pen, Square Horse."
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=evelyn+may+horse&ref=nb_sb_noss
Halla's book is "Horse On Fire."
[URL="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JV8QLL4?keywords=evelyn+may+horse&qid=1540717021&sr=8-2-fkmrnull&ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2"]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JV8QLL4?keywords=evelyn+may+horse&qid=1540717021&sr=8-2-fkmrnull&ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2[/URL]


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## Knave

That is great! I will definitely read them.


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## Knave

I read Round Pen Square Horse. I loved it! You tell it in a way that is interesting to read; I never felt lost, but always could picture myself there. I understood both your horses and you. 

Not only did I love the book and the way that it was written, but I was so impressed with you. I was awed by your determination and ability to respond to situations. I knew this already by reading your journal, but it was different getting to take the whole journey with you. It was interesting to get to see what you came up against starting later in life but yet holding so much knowledge. To start with Amore too... just wow.

Also, it was good for me to read your conclusion. Cowchick is my friend, and we were just discussing something similar. Like accepting the faults and loving a horse for what he actually is.

You know that I love Bones having read my journal. He is perfect for me and has taught me so much about being a person, about God and about how I respond to things. His reactions, embarrassingly, are similar to my own. 

At the same time I am forced lately, more so during his time off, to recognize his limitations. I found myself struggling massively with that. I don’t want him to have any unsermountable holes, almost like it takes away from him. I am looking at that with more distance as I tell him hello and brush him off, giving him love and yet riding Cash during this spell where he needs time to heal. From a distance I can see his limitations don’t take away from him. They, like his other issues, are only a piece of him. I don’t need to force success in these areas on him; after all, we all are good at what we are good at. Our holes are what actually makes us whole. 

I feel often that I was given him to learn about more than horses. General taught me about horsemanship. I’ve always ridden, always worked on the back of a horse, and my horses have been good. General though was different, and I had to learn different things. He taught me more about being a good horseman than any horse I have ever ridden before or since. Bones though... Bones was given to me to learn about who I want to be.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> From a distance I can see his limitations don’t take away from him. They, like his other issues, are only a piece of him. I don’t need to force success in these areas on him; *after all, we all are good at what we are good at. Our holes are what actually makes us whole.*
> 
> *I feel often that I was given him to learn about more than horses. *General taught me about horsemanship. I’ve always ridden, always worked on the back of a horse, and my horses have been good. General though was different, and I had to learn different things. He taught me more about being a good horseman than any horse I have ever ridden before or since. Bones though... Bones was given to me to learn about who I want to be.


Great thoughts! I am so glad you are sharing about Bones on your journal. I'm learning a lot from you, your horses and your family.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> Like accepting the faults and loving a horse for what he actually is.


I liked the entire post but this was my favorite line.

@Knave What is your journal title?


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## Knave

@Hondo it is Zeus and the Sorrel Brigade.


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## gottatrot

Anyone who hasn't read Zeus and the Sorrel Brigade is in for a real treat.


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## SueC

:iagree:


:dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05:




...and I wish I weren't such a slow analytical reader, or I'd be able to tackle the 100 page plus journals from their start too!  One day. It's funny how I actually write faster than I read. It's because I generally already know what I'm going to say! :rofl: So I don't have to think about it too much, or go through the usual rigmarole. When journalling I'm mostly just transcribing what's already there, instead of assimilating new stuff...


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## Knave

Wow, thank you also for the compliment @gottatrot! I am currently reading your Horse on Fire. I am enjoying it!


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## knightrider

I also can't wait to read Horse on Fire. I loved Round Pen, Square Horse. I have a library book that I ordered from another county which can't be renewed, due on Thursday, 500 pages, so I have got to finish that and give it back. It's Book 3 of the Wolfblade Trilogy, and ever so good! But I am really looking forward to Horse on Fire, which I am certain will also be ever so good!!!!


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## knightrider

I am now 1/3 through Horse on Fire and my only regret is that it will be over. I am enjoying it so much. After I finish Horse on Fire, I am going to re-read Round Pen, Square Horse to put the two stories together in my head. They are so well written. Love them!

I smiled at the part where you created your own trail through the logging area and then had trouble riding through it. My friend and I made a jump trail in the 100 acre wood behind my house in Maryland. It wound all around and wove all through the woods. My friend and I were used to taking our horses foxhunting and jumping all kinds of crazy stuff and quite used to winding, turning, jumping, turning at a fast canter. I didn't realize what a skill that was for a horse, and when I took my young green mare on the jump trail we had just finished, she missed a turn and crashed into some brambles and got kind of stuck. And later, when all our horses were used to it and quite skilled at jumping, dodging, and ducking, I took a novice-y type person on the jump trail and scared them terribly. It didn't occur to me that what we did was difficult. I was ashamed that I hadn't realized the person would feel overwhelmed.


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## SueC

This is a bit off current topics, @gottatrot, because I am now reading your journal from both ends. I noticed that you quoted Salman Rushdie at the start and wonder if you've read any of his short stories? I've enjoyed those. _The Satanic Verses_, however, was a slog for me. I'm glad I read it and it has interesting ideas and zany humour, and I had to learn so much about different cultures to make sense of it, but it's not my favourite book, probably for similar reasons why I really enjoy the screen adaptations of Terry Pratchett's books (_The Hogfather_, _Going Postal_, _The Colour of Magic_ etc :thumbsup but find his books a bit of a trudge - just something about the way it's written and the way the humour is presented.

I really relate to your intro to your journal, basically about finding universes in a raindrop - as with horses, in this example, but I see that in so many things, and I suspect you do as well. I've always felt that you could live three thousand years and still be just warming up, and I don't understand the concept of boredom, except under duress. And this part of your intro especially resonated with me:



gottatrot said:


> Where I’ve landed is somewhere far away from those that use horses for profit and ego and their own goals. It’s also some distance from those that use horses to fulfill purely emotional needs, or those that believe horses sense our purposes and bond with us with some form of blind parent/child trust. I’ve learned that absolutes such as never, or always do not apply to horses. No horse will “always.” No horse will “never.” In the right situation, any horse will, and can hurt you. I’ve learned that you can’t take anything personal with an animal, and to stay far away from anthropomorphizing. The more I understand that horses are individuals with their own, strong motivations, the more I appreciate them.


:tardis: ...it's so much bigger on the inside! ;-)


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## Dwarf

Oh I really, really loved Round Pen Square Horse! I'll have to remember to log into my Kindle to read Horse on Fire. That's really neat you decided to put them into ebooks!


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> :tardis: ...it's so much bigger on the inside! ;-)


I don't think I've actually read any of Salman Rushdie's work. I just liked that quote from off the internet. It's interesting how some authors just don't match your brain or style, and even if people rave about how wonderful they are, I might find them too difficult to read. 

DH goes through phases where he tries to read some famous books, and he was recently slogging through James Joyce's book Ulysses. Good grief, I leafed through a bit but it is just too eccentric. The flow of consciousness at the end just reminded me of sitting at the desk at work while a manic schizophrenic spoke at me nonstop for five hours about her hallucinations. 
By the way, some of the most creative and creepy things come out of those minds. 

That being said, some of the most amazing books are very difficult to get into, such as Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and Dickens' The Tale of Two Cities, but once you get your mind down in the story, they are so fascinating and deep.

I don't know how I could be bored until after I'd ridden all the horses and read all the books. 
I love your Tardis emoji. I'm only on season 4 of Dr. Who so far, just heard about the show this year, silly as that sounds. My brother loves it. 

Thanks to @Knave, @knightrider, and @Dwarf for the compliments on the books. I truly appreciate your reading my stories. :bowwdown:
If anyone felt very generous and was so inclined to leave a review, I would appreciate it very much. I just thought it would be very fun to show it to my sister who is a library director, if I got a review. She would be proud. :smile: 
She is the president of the Oregon Library Association, so anything I can tell her about books is of great interest to her.


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## SueC

_Ulysses_! :rofl: Yeah, that was another one on my list, but I just can't get into it. Sometimes I think that to actually get books like that, you have to be on whatever hallucinogenic substances those people were on writing it! ;-) Brett always says there are too many wonderful fiction books in the world to spend your time on fiction you don't enjoy reading - with a caveat that sometimes you do have to give something a bit of a push to start enjoying.

I'm not surprised about the creative and creepy. A fair few authors actually aren't neurotypical, and many people also are writing for catharsis because of early traumatic experiences etc - I've heard it described as a type of DIY psychotherapy you can get paid for if you're good! :rofl: Both situations can create a massive drive to write - as does wanting to understand things in detail, and to think clearly about matters - and other things. I think I probably tick all four boxes. Not that I'm Aspergian or anything categorisable, but I do have some overlap with Aspies, for various reasons, one of which is that neurotype overall I think is a spectrum, rather than a bunch of separate buckets - and I think that's true for horses as well! ;-)

I've heard it said that to write is to live twice, and I think that's partly true. I live so much more consciously when I write a lot about the things I'm thinking about and experiencing, and I learn so much more from my experiences when I write and reflect and particularly if I can also bounce things off others. Writing is sort of like thinking practice, and sustained focus. Also, it's really lovely, for instance, to keep travel diaries so you can look back and re-read and then find that this is enough of a trigger to bring it all back to you, when it would otherwise have faded.  I've got paper journals going back to age 14 (which read much like my current HF journal :rofl, and only stopped with the paper ones when I started the online HF journal, and getting more serious about magazine writing etc - I basically no longer wanted to stuff my writing into a cupboard, but to write in community if I could, as a form of connection with other people rather than a solo project. I'm actually really glad I made that decision, I've come across so many amazing people because of it, and am no longer in a sort of silo! ;-)

I've had a look "in" with your online books - just love your writing style, it's so clear, and alive, and thoughtful. Looks like I'm going to be a paying customer! ;-) (which means you can probably buy half an icecream of something! ;-)) Love the cover art you did on Valhalla's memoir. It looks like all of us are going to have to get off our backsides and leave reviews for you! 

So are you writing up Hero yet? :racing:


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## Knave

I read Horse on Fire and I liked it too, but I have to tell you, I am reading Labyrinth right now and it has me enthralled. Awesome!!! You are so talented.


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## horseluvr2524

I LOVE doctor Who and used to watch it all the time until netflix took it off and hulu doesn't have it. Those are my only TV subscriptions. Bleh.

You all have given me an idea for a short novel. Who knows, maybe I'll get more than one chapter in on a writing project this time. I'm horrible for starting something and then getting bored quickly with it. Good thing that's only happened with things like writing and never happened with riding or horsemanship :wink:


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I've heard it said that to write is to live twice, and I think that's partly true. I live so much more consciously when I write a lot about the things I'm thinking about and experiencing, and I learn so much more from my experiences when I write and reflect and particularly if I can also bounce things off others.


That is so great, and I think very true. Apparently studies show that speech comes out of your mind from a different pathway than the pathway used to write. This is something I find interesting, because it is far more difficult for me to express something through words if I speak them rather than write them. For me, speaking is more like driving on a winding road, while writing is like driving on a smooth and straight one, with no traffic. It just comes out more flowing than speaking does. 
@Knave, thanks for letting me know you are reading Labyrinth! 

I rode yesterday, and I will get to that. However, a crazy story, not for the faint of heart. 
We went to my uncle's funeral today, about three hours away. He died of pancreatic cancer and was an inspiration - he built a house for his wife after being diagnosed as stage 4 and never let it stop him. He was walking around the morning he died. It was nice to spend time with the extended family, and a lovely service. 

Anyway, we decided to drop my dog off at my sister's to stay with her dog since we would be gone all day. She had a friend who would let the dogs outside for us. My sister lives about fifteen minutes away from us, and had left already so I planned to use my key to put my dog inside. My dog is almost eleven, so having slightly less predictable bodily functions, but nothing bad. 

We were five minutes away when my dog belched and tried to hold it back, which caused sphincter failure on the other end. I was holding him in my lap and everything exploded out the back end, all over my shirt and jeans. I was trying to hold him still so he wouldn't step in anything, and get it spread around inside the truck. I had to carry him in, give him a quick bath in the bathroom sink, throw my clothes in my sister's washing machine, and luckily I had planned to change into my dress when we got to the funeral, so I was able to put that on and still have something appropriate to wear! We were already worried we would be late, so we had to drive fast to make sure we arrived on time.

On the way back home we stopped at a Goodwill so I could buy some clothes to wear at the barn other than a dress when we stopped on the way home.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> It's interesting that we call horses "reactive," when many horse handlers I've seen would more appropriately be labeled reactive. If a horse makes a wrong decision, these handlers react as suddenly and strongly as a horse pulling back or exploding into bucking....
> 
> Sometimes people treat their horses worse than machines. If a car doesn't start on the first try, you don't leap out of the front seat and smash the hood with a hammer. You try again. We don't even speak a horse's language, yet we expect them to understand us perfectly every time we give them a cue. Sometimes when I'm working with my horse, I imagine I'm in a foreign country trying to ask someone to move out of my way. I could gesture, or touch them lightly, but I doubt if they didn't move immediately that my next response would be to yell and hit them with something.


This was so well put I just had to quote it.  I am really enjoying reading the earlier parts of your journal, and can see this reading project will be time very well spent - it's making me think, teaching me things, getting me comparing horses and experiences, and it's such a treat to read things written by a person who consistently attempts to put themselves in their horse's position as part of trying to understand and communicate. I really loathe the human arrogance and sense of superiority over the horse that I see too commonly when people write about horses.

I don't see it in you, and I don't see it in the group of people that read your journal. I love you people! :loveshower:


----------



## SueC

gottatrot said:


> That is so great, and I think very true. Apparently studies show that speech comes out of your mind from a different pathway than the pathway used to write. This is something I find interesting, because it is far more difficult for me to express something through words if I speak them rather than write them. For me, speaking is more like driving on a winding road, while writing is like driving on a smooth and straight one, with no traffic. It just comes out more flowing than speaking does.


Yeah, it's the same for me - writing just flows, speaking is more muddled. And another funny thing is, I really like having subtitles for a lot of my movies/drama, so I don't have to worry about not catching something - and because I can read and comprehend the subtitle in a fraction of the time it takes to do that for listening and comprehending the spoken equivalent - and that gives me more time to think about what is being said! ;-)

That was a typical Murphy thing with your dog... but could have been worse... you could have been wearing your dress already...


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## gottatrot

Yesterday Nala was trying out some new hoof boots. Her owner had previously bought her some Easyboot Gloves for the front hooves, and used them on a trail ride. Now she was trying a pair on the hinds. One front hoof had a little flare so the boot wasn't willing to get pounded on until after a little rasping. 

We had a windstorm come through the night before, but everything had cleared out quickly, like it sometimes does. There was very little wind and both Nala's rider and I were wearing tee-shirts and feeling quite warm. After the rain, the sun reflecting off the wet sand made it seem almost too bright and I found myself squinting my eyes. Apparently I hadn't been exposed to actual daylight for awhile.

The sand was wide and flat, with about half of the available beach fairly deep and shifty and the other half flat and smooth. There was no transition today. Sometimes there is a long transition between the soft and hard sand and it gets less and less deep until finally turning solid. Other times the changes are abrupt. The worst sand for riding is when the sand stays loose and deep all the way down to the shoreline. 
When you ride on the beach frequently, you learn to read the sand, just like the surfers read the ocean.

Hero has been struggling a little again with his stifles. When we went down the beach access, the sand was deep and he bucked a couple of times. It is rather tricky to ride bucks going down a steep hill, but I am getting better at it. You have to put your hand on the front of the saddle, keep your legs forward (do NOT let them swing back), and lift your seat up off the saddle while pushing your upper body back and not letting it get thrown forward down the hill. Easy peasy, right?

Nala's rider wanted to go down to the gravel trails so she could try out Nala's boots. We cantered and trotted the better part of two miles, and Hero felt willing but did buck if we hit shifty sand. Just before the gravel trails, there were some dogs laying down by a truck. They didn't look too interested in the horses, but there was a strange little dog-sized tent that I was keeping my eye on, thankfully. It turned out that the dogs were tied to the truck by long straps, and when they stood and ran towards us those lines zipped under the vehicle and made a strange sound as they played out. Nala spooked a little but Hero went six feet sideways. 

It was a sideways kind of day. Nala's boots stayed on perfectly and performed well on the gravel. When we came over the top of the dune to get back to the beach, two people were down on the beach, and one of them stood up at the very moment we popped over the crest and began shaking out a very large blanket in our direction, flapping it toward us. Nala was by now partly down the hill, so she kept going. Hero went sideways up the steepest part of the dune, and then when the flapping stopped I had to buck him back down to where Nala was.

Whether that just excited him or strained something, Hero could not canter for the next two miles. He could buck, and sometimes hit one stride but kept falling back out. Once he was popping me so hard I turned him around in a tight circle and gave him a hard reprimand. We did manage one small group of about four strides, eventually. His trot was fine, he felt sound. 

I'm weighing some different things in my mind. The horses are staying in their sheds more when the weather is rough, so that is why I believe he is struggling again. One idea I have is to try rubbing DMSO around his stifles at night and before a ride, to see if it may help. I've never tried it myself, just heard it has helped some horses.
Other than that I am wondering if I should have the vet again to see what more she can offer. My last thought is to maybe just take him down to OSU and have them do a full work up and let us know all the possible options. That might be something to do in the spring, however.


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## Knave

So, I finished the three books. I would have paid for them. I think your next book should cost money to read, or you should begin charging for the ones you have written. They were very good.

It seems though that our tastes are similar. I love books like Labyrinth, and sometimes like to daydream of things like that. Of course I also love reading books about horses. 

On another note: I am sorry that Hero had a rough ride. I hope that the stifle issues can be managed without intervention, but if it is necessary I hope it works. I can imagine how frustrating it is. A friend of mine just bought a horse to find out it has the same issue, and I thought of you and the things you have tried. If she ends up with a magical solution I will tell you.


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## horseluvr2524

Remember when Shan was having all of those arthritic problems in her hind end? She doesn't have them anymore. I don't know if you recall, but I did a weird thing that ended up helping her. I fed her a tablespoon of softened regular butter in her supplement mix every day. Within a week, all of her problems were gone and she was more athletic and comfortable and even more willing than she had been in the entire time I have known her. It was the myristoleic acid in the butter that I believe made the difference for her. You could also try Cetyl-M for horses which is where I got the butter idea from (cetyl myristoleate is a derivative of myristoleic acid). I found butter to basically have the same effect as Cetyl M, but for much, much, much less in cost. And the butter never did hurt her digestive system in any way (no colic or diarrhea or what have you).

I've since told people about my little miracle but have yet to see anyone else try it. Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> So, I finished the three books. I would have paid for them. I think your next book should cost money to read, or you should begin charging for the ones you have written. They were very good.


Thank you very much! You are too kind. 
@horseluvr2524, I started with the butter tonight. Hero ate it fine in his beet pulp, but he's not a picky horse at all. The opposite of Halla.

I ordered some DMSO to try also. I have never used it before, so have no idea if horses dislike having that taste in their mouth (they say if you get it on your skin you can taste a garlic flavor). It is supposed to be an anti-inflammatory, and is the only topical pain reliever I know about that I could try.


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## SueC

I've used DMSO. Mixed results, but my mare was guaranteed to run if she saw me with the bottle! :rofl: It seems to create a heat sensation in the skin. I had it as a roll-on product, which was a bit weird to apply to an injured tendon at cannon bone level. It did seem to do _something_...


Ooooh, idea! :idea: My favourite topical thing for my personal sprains, bruises, muscular strains, joint aches etc is Tiger Balm Red. It's all natural (cinnamon oil, clove oil etc), smells lovely, and works well for me. I've tried it on horses and it seems to work really well for them too - at least as well as DMSO, from statistically unreliable gut feelings using both. Other people I know also use Tiger Balm Red on horses. The White version is gutless and doesn't smell so good.


https://www.tigerbalm.com/sg/range/3/range_products/3


It's an Asian herbal medicine historically and I'm not sure if it's commonly used in the US. It is here.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> I started with the butter tonight. Hero ate it fine in his beet pulp, but he's not a picky horse at all. The opposite of Halla.


I'm looking forward to seeing if you have any results. Hopefully Hero will soon be doing more of this :gallop: and a bit less of this :falloff:


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## gottatrot

I have some Tiger Balm Red coming to try also. Thanks for the advice, @SueC.

Tomorrow the forecast is for sunny, so Nala's rider and I plan to ride.
I rode tonight, but only for about a half hour. Got up at 4, but by the time I got to the barn, saddled up, boots on, etc, it was 5 and dark by 5:30. 

Hero is so funny, he has the most fake separation anxiety I've ever seen. I brought him down to the lower barn, alone, and he was all hysterical about leaving everyone behind. Couldn't stand still, whinnying, pawing, head high, etc. Threw a bucket of hay in front of him and within two seconds all was forgotten, all anxiety gone. "Friends, what friends?" 

Food before fear or friends, for that boy.

Since time was short, I made a huge, imaginary arena in the sand on the beach and trotted and cantered a large oval. Hero has no trouble feeling motivated to move when we are so close to the beach access. Our circles went: away from home, toward home, away from home, toward home. Always rewarding. Anyway, he got some exercise.

Back at the barn, I thought about how big horses are nice, but little horses are sure nice too. While Amore ate I leaned against her girth area and put my arm over her back, and she was just the right size for me to both hug and lean against. We talked about how warm it was, even after dark in November, since neither of us needed a warm jacket or blanket on. Then we thought about how many good memories we had together, standing at night together in the dark, just hanging out. 

I was thinking that a very rewarding horse life might include having a young horse you were raising up and starting, a seasoned horse in his prime, that you were spending most of your rides on, and an old horse that you had many memories with, and the satisfaction of seeing her enjoying the comfortable life that you provided in old age. 
Hmm, kind of sounds like @Knave's horse life. 

I've just learned in the past week that Hero absolutely HATES lights in his eye. I have been using my head lamp, and he will run away in a corner if he sees me wearing it. I try holding it down in my hand in his pen, so I don't accidentally flash him with it. Tonight I forgot, and was leading him up the hill when I turned my head and flashed him in the eye. He reared right up, he was so upset by it. Sheesh, sorry. No head lamps for Hero.


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## knightrider

I finished Horse on Fire and then re-read Round Pen, Square Horse just so I could mesh the two stories in my brain. Man, I love those two books. If anyone who reads this journal hasn't read them, you really should. Gottatrot, you are an amazing writer! Please write more????!!!


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## gottatrot

Murphy's law has been in full effect this week.

Saturday night: Forecast was for no rain overnight. I took the horses' rain sheets off. During the night the wind picked up and it rained hard most of the night.

Sunday night: Forecast was for about an inch of rain overnight. I put the horses' rain sheets on. During the night it did not rain.

Monday night: Supposed to be dry again. Took the horses' rain sheets off. It rained hard off and on all night.

I give up.









I asked DH what happened to his green shirt. He said he left it somewhere. "That's OK, I found it somewhere a long time ago." 
I wonder how many people this shirt has been passed around to.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I've just learned in the past week that Hero absolutely HATES lights in his eye. I have been using my head lamp, and he will run away in a corner if he sees me wearing it. I try holding it down in my hand in his pen, so I don't accidentally flash him with it. Tonight I forgot, and was leading him up the hill when I turned my head and flashed him in the eye. He reared right up, he was so upset by it. Sheesh, sorry. No head lamps for Hero.


Yeah, our horses are like that, and so am I! :rofl: We now have dual-light lamps, with a white light and a red light. I try to use the red light when I am around the horses, as it doesn't bother them - and reserve the white light for mixing up feed etc, so I can see colours, and see better...


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## Hondo

I used to have a headlamp that switched from red to white. Red does not cause our pupils to contract, as all probably know. Very bright red lights can damage our retinas. But red light is nice at night as it does not interfere with us being able to see off in the dark.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> I finished Horse on Fire and then re-read Round Pen, Square Horse just so I could mesh the two stories in my brain. Man, I love those two books. If anyone who reads this journal hasn't read them, you really should. Gottatrot, you are an amazing writer! Please write more????!!!


Thank you, I value your opinion very much! 
If anyone does not know, @knightrider has kindly posted her books on the forum, and they are both great reads.
Knights in Shining Armor has actual photos of the people and horses the characters are based on.
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-stories-poems/knights-shining-armor-789473/
The Pony Project is great too.
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-stories-poems/pony-project-788497/
@Hondo, thank you for the advice about the red light. My head lamp has one, I just haven't used it. I didn't realize it might be less irritating.

It was nice weather today and Hero and Nala had a good ride together. There were three bald eagles on the beach, sitting down by the water. For some reason this was making the seagulls very mad and loud. 

Even though I haven't received the DMSO or Tiger Balm yet, I decided today I need to get an appointment for xrays and more workup of Hero's stifles very soon. It is obvious that I'm not going to be able to just exercise him out of the problem, and I keep thinking that he's only ten, so why not see if we can do something to cure him?
He was marginally better after the extra exercise he had this week, but I am realizing if we don't find a solution he will always be having these issues to a lesser or greater degree, depending on the weather and how much work he had, etc.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> the satisfaction of seeing her enjoying the comfortable life that you provided in old age.


To view this as a form of satisfaction rather than a burden that comes with horse ownership is, I think, profound and bears repeating.


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## Knave

I had been thinking about that post too @Hondo!

Yes @gottatrot, it is satisfying to own in that way. It seems to be the way most of the people I know do it, although some require more than that of course. That just looks like more numbers, but everyone seems to have retirement horses and good steady using horses and a baby or two coming up. 

One day husband and I were looking in our pen and realized our horses were all getting older and we had no babies coming. We thought about my parents horses and had the same feeling, although the roan is fairly young.

I bought Bones, and right after one of our most solid horses went out. We gave him to a small child and he is now still very loved (he was too young to retire, and he was unhappy as a pasture ornament). Then he bought Lucy, and the littlest bought Zeus. There were two horses that didn’t work out during all of this time frame; one was Keno of course, and another horse called Charlie (who wasn’t a bad horse by any means, but he had some issues husband did not like) was sold. Charlie is now the main horse where he lives and many people use him.

With the horses we have now we might need one more in a couple years, but they feel like a very good group. There is a lot of happiness I feel when I look into our corrals. 

I was thinking about horses like Charlie and Keno, and in comparison horses like either Pete. I think the satisfaction of having old horses must come from a place of love. Take Charlie for example. Husband really didn’t like that horse, and he did not enjoy himself at work or even at play when he rode him. He would have disliked him in retirement as well if we kept him around for that long. 

Instead he is somewhere now that he is very loved, and someday he will feel like Pete to them when he is retired. They will look over the fence with love and fly spray him off in the summer.

I guess I just thought it important to explain that the satisfaction comes with the love.


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## Hondo

As an aside but perhaps connected, I read this quote that I'll be pondering on a bit.

"Grief is love with no place to go" Not sure it is the exact words but close.


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## SueC

That's a _lovely_ quote, thank you, @Hondo!


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> It is interesting to me that while people will say they understand others are better, more experienced riders than they are, they still often feel their own horse is a real challenge when in reality they may have a quite mellow, compliant horse. I've taken out enough horses for other people to help the horse gain experience, when honestly it was only the rider that needed help. It's something I wish people would understand, that through their lenses a horse might be difficult, bad, obnoxious, etc but _the horse is only doing what any horse would. If any horse can step to the side, lose the rider and then trot home and eat, they will probably find that quite appealing._


I know this is from way back, but this is such a great conclusion! Yes! And sometimes, inexperienced people don't even wish to do as advised and then blame the horse when things go wrong, as in the final part of the story of trying out Sunsmart's dam with riding homes when she was a young mare:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-ri...omeone-offer-you-797187/page3/#post1970622747



gottatrot said:


> Once upon a time, I really believed that if a horse bit me and if I punished them strongly enough, they'd never try anything like that ever again. But there are horses and there are horses...
> It probably would sound strange to someone that didn't handle a very strong mare or stallion, but I believe that Halla would bite or kick me if I ever did something really wrong. She doesn't believe that someone can "earn her respect" and keep it for good. No horse will stay her leader unchallenged or undeserved, and no human can either.
> 
> Tonight I picked a scab off Halla's leg, which pulled her skin painfully and she set her teeth on my leg. She has done this to me on occasion; set her teeth on me. I always get as big as I can, and aggressively step toward her, give a loud verbal reprimand, stomp, slap some part of her body. She understands and tips her head at me, which means OK, you are still the big horse. But I also understand she is telling me she won't tolerate me causing pain unfairly, and it is a warning. She is saying that I hurt her, there was no call for that, and that she could bite me hard if she wanted to.
> 
> Interestingly, in the times when she was really injured, such as when she fell and denuded her knees or when she got cut badly on a fence, she allowed me to cause pain. I can tend her injuries, and she understands that. When she is not injured and gets really amped up and starts losing control of her body (head moving everywhere, butt swinging around) and I grab some skin on her neck in my hand and squeeze, she understands I am telling her to chill. A trainer told me that stallions grab mares on the neck, so sometimes with strong mares that is the only way to get them to listen. When she is really upset and reacting to something, this does get her to pay attention a lot of times, so it is a good tip.
> 
> I've had people tell me that Valhalla behaves like a stallion. Perhaps she is one of those mares with a reproductive issue that creates testosterone. I've certainly never seen her behave as though she is in heat. She is consistently a strong horse, and one that gives you respect but you can't take it from her. I don't know about this comparison, because the only stallions I've handled have been docile. These stallions were the kind that amateur owners tend to keep as studs, because there was no real reason to geld them since they were so amenable and could live in close proximity with other horses. The only stallions I've seen that weren't docile lived in their stalls and screamed and climbed the walls, so I never saw them being handled.



Yes, that's pretty much what most stallions I have handled do - with the exception of the really docile ones, who handle like geldings, except around mares.

And if you drastically punish an assertive stallion for letting you know where his boundary is, you can make yourself his enemy and set up an escalating war. You have to be really tactful with stallions showing you they don't appreciate something. Sunsmart wasn't just an assertive stallion (before gelded at age 11 so I could keep him in a herd), he was an aggressive stallion who charged and bit over his box, and over his paddock fence, at horses and humans alike. (Julian was the same.) And working with him, you had to be careful. Here's the sideways technique I used on him to counter his biting without him learning to hate me:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-turns-back-me-when-he-788919/page3/#post1970522651

Once you get the respect of a horse like that, yes you have to keep earning it, but it is a really huge kind of respect, and they generally get very attached to you, "talkative", and demonstrative with affection. These horses enjoy a conversation, but wouldn't offer it to someone who didn't have their respect as a being who respects their boundaries.

And that technique for stallion handling transfers so well to handling horses in general. I like to show horses that I respect their boundaries too, and that I can work on gentler ways of handling wounds, etc etc. I always show concern for the horse when they go, "Ouch - hurts!" etc - give a little pause, talk to them, try again more gently. They appreciate it, and I think it's good to be respectful of horses, whose personal space we are always invading.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> "Grief is love with no place to go"


I really like this quote. I sent it to my sister to share with her best friend: her Chihuahua was 13 and diagnosed with end stage Lymphoma so had to be put to sleep. She told my sister that she didn't want to get another dog because it hurt too much to lose them...my thoughts are similar to the quote above. I believe that having a new love can be the most helpful thing for someone who is grieving. It's not that you can or want to "replace" the one you lost, but rather it gives your love someplace to go so it doesn't wander around stabbing you all the time. 

The vet will come to see Hero in a week to do more workup on his stifles. This time she will do xrays and more definitive diagnostics. If she can't help him without surgery, she says she'll refer us to one of the two big equine medical centers in the state.
I told her that the best he ever has been was when he was on the Equioxx. At that time I did see a big improvement, and we had some entire rides without him feeling the need to buck or kick out. 
So that says there is pain involved, but the source is in question. Is it arthritis, or something more like chronic tendonitis from the stifles being irritated long term? Something like that might do well with some kind of injection at the site, either one time or every few months. 

I have chronic tendonitis myself, in the peroneal tendon that runs along the outside of the calf. I got it from riding Halla too long with her crooked body issues. Now that I don't ride her, it only flares up once in awhile and is an ignoreable type of pain.

Hero doesn't mind the red light on my head lamp, which is good. He doesn't like me smearing Tiger Balm on his stifles. I'm not sure if they are sore and he doesn't like the rubbing, or the feel of the goo or what. I chase him around with the jar. At least I'll know if he doesn't like the DMSO that it's all rubs and not just that one.

I rode him around the property yesterday, and it was very windy but he was not panicky, just a little "up." Couldn't get him to canter properly so afterwards I lunged him a little, to make sure he was getting a good enough workout. Then he was really excited and bucked a few times and tried to gallop a little with his legs all akimbo. He'd love to gallop if his legs worked properly. I had his hind boots on and one of the cables broke when his maneuvers finally kicked the boot off and he stepped on it wrong. I'm still not sure if it helps him to have boots on the hinds or makes things worse.


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## Hondo

Fingers crossed for Hero. Without you, he would likely have eventually wound up with a bad ending.

It took me four years to get another dog after losing Hector. When I got Meka I swore that I'd get another dog when she began reaching the terminal age in order to have another dog to help me through the loss. Selfish in a way but sometime we have to look after ourselves along with the animals.


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## Knave

I heard something that will be of interest to you, well, so I assume. Remember I told you that my friend had a three-year-old with locking stifles? Today she had him injected. The vet injected it with iodine to irritate the ligaments in holes which makes them tighten up. Sounds simple enough.

Thought I’d let you know.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I heard something that will be of interest to you, well, so I assume. Remember I told you that my friend had a three-year-old with locking stifles? Today she had him injected. The vet injected it with iodine to irritate the ligaments in holes which makes them tighten up. Sounds simple enough.
> 
> Thought I’d let you know.


Thank you! I appreciate hearing about this treatment option. I've heard it can be successful with just one treatment, or sometimes two. Would you mind letting me know if you hear how her horse does in a few weeks? I believe it can make them sore for a week or two, as the ligament has to get inflamed and develop scar tissue in order to shorten. I am hoping my vet will be willing to try either this or the estrogen shots, as long as the xrays don't show anything ominous.


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## Knave

I will definitely let you know what she says.


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## gottatrot

I found an interesting article on Learned Helplessness.



> Whether the science is there or not, I think good horsemen I’ve worked with have seen horses with LH. They’ve called them “checked out”, “tuned out”, “shut down”, “gone internal”, “withdrawn”, “mechanical”, “robotic”, and dare I say it, the classic “bombproof”. I’ve heard horsemen talk about horses who are “dead inside”, have “dead eyes” or sucked-in “shark eyes.” Nowadays I think that these are all different ways of describing learned helplessness.
> 
> What sucks about using LH to train a horse is IT WORKS. A horse in a state of learned helplessness is really consistent. He never expresses an opinion, he never objects. He doesn’t fight, he doesn’t try new things for the heck of it. He’s “bombproof” and “a campaigner”. He goes through his life in a fog, not really looking at anything, asking no questions, just mindlessly putting one foot in front of the other. They make awesome, consistent show horses. They can go from venue to venue and don’t really see their surroundings. So they don’t spook, they don’t bobble, they don’t struggle with the differences in the venues. It wouldn’t matter if they did, so they don’t.


https://greyhorsellc.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/learned-helplessness/?fbclid=IwAR1WAq-B9pASYYzvcug3WMh8mshQM758PzM2LMJkNB3EWAl9_66AU9cLj6w


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## SueC

Super excerpt there, @*gottatrot* !  Also thought that was a great post on love and grief.

You could try plain vaseline as a control to the test substances of Tiger Balm and DMSO! Both these give the skin a "hot" feeling - the vaseline doesn't. And if Hero doesn't love the Tiger Balm, I think you will, for yourself! ;-)

@*Hondo* , it's not just that you're looking after yourself by getting another dog, it's also that you are looking after another dog who will appreciate it. I don't think that's selfish - I think that's both self-care and other-care, at the same time. And self-care is so important, if we're going to be any good to others!  I had an English teacher for my two senior school years who influenced me a great deal, especially by teaching critical thinking, quite passively rather than overtly - but very valuable as a life skill.

I remember how mad I was when he suggested there was no such thing as true altruism. I was offended because it seemed to me that this was saying _nobody_ was capable of truly caring for others, without some sort of hidden agenda. But you know what, I think he was actually right, and I didn't need to be offended - it's just that we're all connected somehow, so it's sort of not possible to truly do something good for another being without also feeling better yourself because of it. (As opposed to, if you let other people exploit you, or if you're operating under a dysfunctional version of "love", then that's not good for either side, although it may appear to run in the favour of the exploiter - because of material advantage etc.)


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## gottatrot

@SueC, that's interesting about altruism, and I think perhaps correct. None of us exist in a vacuum.

The article I just posted led me to reading more from Andrew McLean. I found a very interesting article that some of you may be interested in:
Learning Theory and Biomechanics ? with Andrew McLean | The Horse Magazine

I found the concept of "overshadowing" very interesting.



> “Overshadowing reveals that animals, like horses and probably all of us, can only respond effectively to one signal at a time. The weaker stimulus becomes ignored.”
> 
> “If you accept that, then you might see that much of what occurs in modern horse training is unintentional overshadowing – one aid becomes overshadowed by another. When horses shy or panic, they are expressing overshadowing of your aids by another stimulus. It is much more useful to interpret behaviour problems like that as “aid failures”. The cat in the bushes overshadowed the rider’s aids. So in many modern systems of training, we end up with an overshadowing regime, where the rider uses the reins with the leg, most of the time. Overshadowing is even instituted in modern riding literature. The German training manual prescribes never to use reins without legs and that came from Steinbrecht. I think Steinbrecht made a mistake there. Using reins and legs simultaneously has a long history: Xenophon recommended it to make the horse more exuberant. Baucher was famous for it, but dropped it after the chandeliers fell on his head. His convalescence gave him time to think about his earlier methods that were heavily criticised for losses of impulsion and deadness to the aids. After that accident he recanted a little and coined the maxim ‘reins without legs and legs without reins’. This maxim fell on deaf ears because nobody wanted to listen to Baucher anymore yet it was, to my mind, a principle of major importance that heeds optimal use of learning theory.”
> 
> “It is important to recognize that the rein’s chief function is to decelerate the horse’s legs, and the muscles for deceleration are an entirely different set from the muscles that accelerate. When one set is used, the other stabilizes the limbs and that’s all. So if we are giving an acceleration cue with even one leg and at the same time, using the reins, you have the two opposite muscle groups stimulated at the same time. Once you do this, then you are in a position of overshadowing, creating confusion and diminishing responding – stronger aids are needed more and more. Where both reins and both legs are cued simultaneously, the horse tells us he can’t do it, mild conflict behaviours may emerge such tension and hyper-reactivity, tongue retraction, unsettled mouth, teeth grinding, biting, kicking, drooping tongue or major conflict behaviours such as bolting, rearing, bucking, shying, etc. These things are frequently swept aside by trainers and riders as a peculiarity of the horse’s personality, but things are not personality disorders, – the horse telling you that you are making mistakes and confusing it. Horses are so easy to blame compared to tennis racquets and motor bikes.”
> 
> “When you use reins and legs together the horse generally perceives the mouth to be the most painful of the two so he responds to that and slows down. So the rider must then drive the horse forward in order to cancel out the effect of the reins. Next thing, the reins may feel a little lighter, but as brakes they are detrained and the horse may begin to run away. At any rate he is so confused that his security diminishes. He shows his insecurity by being afraid of all sorts of things in his environment, even formerly innocuous things, and may also show separation anxiety. Insecurity in ridden and handled horses is largely a result of confusions in training. When the rider doesn’t know how to frame the question, of the horse can’t decipher the question, or it is too similar to other questions, or the horse physically can’t give the answer or doesn’t know the answer, insecurity sets in – their world falls apart. They whinny for other horses because humans speak double-dutch and are unnerving.”


I really like how he emphasizes using one aid at a time. Maybe you give multiple aids in a row, but only after the horse responds appropriately to the first one, and never the same aid again. 



> “I asked for an example of where you can’t train a single aid for a movement. And he said the half-pass is the clearest example – ‘I use my outside rein, I use my outside leg, the outside rein controls the bend and the outside front leg’. I said ‘but the footfalls aren’t at the same time. If you use the aids to stimulate a particular footfall, then the aids are consecutive. With the principle of the horse going on his own, once the angle is set up (that’s why shoulder-in is a precursor in training) the horse only needs an outside leg aid, he is already leading with the forelegs and bent. He realised that he’d never gone back to the point of thinking it through, because you are told as a rider ‘this is how you do it’. Top level riders like Wayne are definitely capable of delivering signals so subtly and so close in time in the space of a leg beat. Dressage is, as I always maintain, about being able to put horse’s legs exactly where you want in any given moment. There is usually little to modify with the horse’s head and neck if you have perfect control of the horse’s legs. Before being too concerned about the horse’s head-carriage, you should first be able to slow, stop, shorten, step-back and straighten the horse with reins aids. The head, neck and body posture melt into the right position.”


I've not had a name for "overshadowing," but I've understood the concept for a long time, as have many of us. We know that despite what people tell us about how training makes the horse always respond to a cue, sometimes a horse does not. If you tell a horse to stand the way they always do, and then scare them, they will not stand.


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## Hondo

I first read and learned about learned helplessness with Temple Grandin. I found the quoted text by @gottatrot as very depressing but so true. I see that in the eyes of so many ranch horses exactly as described. Particularly one old ranch horse that died recently. He was ridden by someone all his ridden life where someone said, "I wouldn't want to be a horse and not do what I was told when ridden by him".

His eyes were the definition of sad horse eyes. He avoided all adults yet my grandkids were all over him and he loved it. Made me happy to watch.

Along a similar line, I've recently been thinking about the age old maxim that horses are "animals of habit".

Well, so am I to a degree, but the story often quoted is of a horse that spent his entire life walking around a grinding wheel and when retired instead of sent to the glue factory was allowed to live out his life in the green fields where each day at the appointed time the horse began walking in circles until quitting time.

With that, I think about some retired people who continually return to their old workplace to ostensibly visit old friends but in reality because they don't seem to know what else to do. Their work has been their entire life, which is not necessarily bad in itself, but with no other interest they just seem to not know what else to do. It's my understanding that these people do not live as long as others after retirement.

So somewhere in there, I've been thinking the retired horse walking around an arrastra all day every day fits in. The horse has come to not even realize there is a life beyond the arrastra. Some people released from prison seem to be also affected by this phenomenon where they actually want to return.

My tentative conclusion is that a horse is an animal of habit only if forced to be.


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## Hondo

The article by Martin Black was really really interesting and almost comprised a training manual in my mind. Temple Grandin talks about the development dendritic fields in natural based and confined animals. Makes the idea of owning a mustang very compelling.

I've been curious about why I seem to really enjoy the learning process. Now I know. Chocolate!!


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## knightrider

Where is @bsms? He would appreciate this discussion.

I found it quite interesting, especially as I am working with my daughter's young mare getting her to do running walk consistently. There is one statement I am not comfortable with:



> He shows his insecurity by being afraid of all sorts of things in his environment, even formerly innocuous things, and may also show separation anxiety. Insecurity in ridden and handled horses is largely a result of confusions in training. When the rider doesn’t know how to frame the question, of the horse can’t decipher the question, or it is too similar to other questions, or the horse physically can’t give the answer or doesn’t know the answer, insecurity sets in – their world falls apart. They whinny for other horses because humans speak double-dutch and are unnerving.”


I have trained probably 20 horses in my life. Some of them spook a bit, some never or rarely spook. I can't say I've trained them very differently. I trained Chorro from a yearling and he spooks BIIIIIGGGG (or he used to; he's really doing better, much better at age 14). I helped my daughter train her young mare, Windy, from 4 months old. She almost never spooks. As far as spooking, I think much more depends on the horses' personality, not whether or not you confuse them in training. I bought Chorro as a yearling listed as temperament 7. I wanted a peppy, zippy, reactive, fun, dancy horse, and I got one, with the spooking as an unpleasant sideline. I bought Windy for my daughter because she was quiet, calm, dependable and non-reactive (or rather her siblings, sire, and dam because at 4 months I didn't know her very well). 

About the insecurity--Chorro and Windy both scream and race about the pen if left. On the other hand, Isabeau, who never spooks, but was extremely difficult to train as she thought she was in charge, doesn't fuss at all. And Acicate never spooks, but he is hysterical when left, even though the other horses kick and bite him.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> My tentative conclusion is that a horse is an animal of habit only if forced to be.


Interesting. My first thought was that this was wrong, because I was thinking of how horses seem less stressed if there is a routine, and will line up at dinner time just like the cats and dogs do at home. But then I realized this is actually more unnatural than it seems, because if the animals were hunting or grazing, they would not always find their prey or food source at 5 pm sharp, so the fact that they expect to be fed at a certain time is really something we cause.

@knightrider, I agree with you. That belief that horses only spook because they don't trust a human or get inconsistent treatment from the human is not something I've found true either. Or that horses that have separation anxiety from other horses are insecure about being ridden. Amore does not have separation anxiety from other horses, yet will be nervous in a new environment, and has always been very spooky. Yet she seems very trusting of humans. Halla had separation anxiety within a certain range of the barn (within eye and earshot of other horses), but once we were out riding she became confident. I don't think you can blame "confusions in training" for horses that are far spookier than other horses even in the field, even before they've had any training at all.

Also, not every resistance is from confusion when working a horse. Sometimes bucking or biting, etc might be from the horse experiencing pain or discomfort that has nothing to do with the rider. Or a lack of confidence. So training properly does not fix everything; sometimes a horse needs more experience, or the detective work to find out what is bothering the horse physically.


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## Hondo

If no one read "About" the author of learned helplessness, she worked with Mark Rashid for 12 years and was his assistant for 2 years and the last five years has been riding with Buck Brannaman.

I liked the fact that she did not present anything as "that's the way it is" and several times mentioned, "well, I just don't know".

Turns out I have a copy of Evidence Based Horsemanship. Guess I'll finish reading it.

I'm thinking the most caring person that has trained many horses but being not fully aware of the depths to which LH can exist, may have worked with LH horses without knowing it.

As a disclaimer, this comes from one that has never trained a horse.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> The article by Martin Black was really really interesting and almost comprised a training manual in my mind. Temple Grandin talks about the development dendritic fields in natural based and confined animals. Makes the idea of owning a mustang very compelling.


That's fascinating. For around thirty years now, I've been closely comparing stable/yard-raised horses with horses that were born into a herd that always runs on the pasture together, with some room to roam and with plenty of unhampered social opportunities on tap. That's because my birth family and some of their acquaintances were breeding in a stable/yard setup, but the larger commercial horse farms from whom you could buy yearlings had herd-raised, pasture-fed horses.

And although there is individual variation, when educating them to harness, the yearlings from the pasture/herd situation overall seemed significantly more mature, more thinking, more confident and less spooky to me than the stable/yard-raised horses, who displayed many of the traits we associate with institutionalisation in humans as well. If the bought-in pasture/herd-raised horses were kept confined on their own, they often developed so-called stable vices, and ritualised behaviour - even self-harming behaviour.

Thank goodness though for neuroplasticity, even in adults! Taking several horses from a lifelong isolated stable/yard setting to retire at our place with lots of terrain and a herd to socialise in has really turned them into very different horses - just from that environmental/social change - even without any further training.


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## Hondo

@SueC Your comments connected me to some thoughts. First, I've known two or three adults that were home schooled. I have no idea if this holds true across the board but the adults that I've known had some quality about them I can't quite describe but maybe "mentally clear" or "centered" might hit around it somewhere. At any rate, I was positively impressed with them as individuals.

Second, I thought about the direction some schools are experimenting with in just letting kids be kids and doing whatever outside or inside. The little boogers just may be out there growing their little dendritic fields for later use as an adult.

Fascinating!

Were it not for the internet, I would likely be unaware of so many things.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Once I had a hunt saddle, it turned out I needed a dressage saddle for my riding lessons. Three saddles for one horse? My husband had questions about that but I assured him that all the saddles were absolutely necessary. He admitted he did not understand how this whole horse thing worked.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I know this is a pain in the posterior to experience, but you made all that tragedy into _such_ an entertaining post! :clap: (p4, for those who've missed it, like I had)



> One saddle would slip forward. One would feel as though it put my leg too far forward. Another might bridge a bit on my horse's back. The more I knew about saddles, the more critical I became. I'd fall in love with a saddle, ride in it for awhile, and then notice some tiny little fault and it would grow in my mind until I could not believe I was using the saddle at all.
> 
> Saddles came and saddles went.


 It could be worse. It could be men, not saddles. Bet you your DH is glad it's not. Remind him of this when you buy your next saddle! :Angel:


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## Hondo

suec said:


> it could be men, not saddles remind him of this when you buy your next saddle!


trouble maker!!


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## SueC

Well, you know, @*Hondo* , the males of the species reading could always swap out the genders to fit their situation. Which reminds me, has anyone seen @*bsms* ? He has many saddles and could use this line of argument... :rofl:


This whole thing reminds me...Here's a little gem I couldn't find on the Internet and actually had to copy out of an old school book. Perhaps we could modify the metaphor to include saddles... 

*How To Select A Husband*
by Robbie Poor

When selecting a husband, you should consider several important points. First, keep in mind that you must take the same care in selecting a husband that you would in selecting an automobile. Certainly you will want the one that will give you the best mileage. A large man, like a large car, will be more expensive to keep up, and the amount of fuel the larger model burns will make a difference to your budget. On the other hand, a large model wears well and is more comfortable than a smaller model - and it is certainly the best for long hauls. You must remember, however, that when the larger model ages, there is more to show: the interior is shot, the cushions sag and bulge, and the top is often shiny.

If you are petite, it is all right to look at the smaller models. If you are not petite, get a good view of the two of you together before you make a final decision: you may look like an Amazon steering a toy around. The myth that you can park any easier with a small one than a large one is just that - a myth.

The next, and perhaps most crucial, point to consider when selecting a husband is temperament and personality. Here again, as with a car, looks may be deceiving and hide what is underneath. It little matters what the model looks like, for it is how it behaves that counts. If it is a slow starter or if it snarls and growls when the going gets rough, then you need to keep shopping. Assuredly, the model should be dependable and reliable, for there are rough streets as well as paved roads to drive. Sometimes even an older model is the best buy, if picked with caution. But always be wary of a model with retreads: they tend to break down as the speed is increased. And look closely for paint used to cover up damaged areas. These give way under stress.

Another thing to look for as you make your selection is a model that is easy to handle, one that responds well to your lightest touch. You certainly do not want to spend your time with one that wears you out as you steer it. Select one that you can manoeuvre with ease.

Take extreme caution when breaking in your model. Use a light touch. Take it in for frequent tune-ups. Above all, use the right fuel.


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## bsms

knightrider said:


> Where is @*bsms* ? He would appreciate this discussion...There is one statement I am not comfortable with: "...Insecurity in ridden and handled horses is largely a result of confusions in training...."
> 
> ...As far as spooking, I think much more depends on the horses' personality, not whether or not you confuse them in training...


 I haven't spent much time lately online, particularly involving horses. It is a time of change for our family. My youngest leaves for boot camp next month. My son bought a home in California and his wife and kids will move to join him after Christmas. So after nearly 32 years with kids in the house, we'll be home alone. Two people in a 5 bedroom house.

Our tentative goal is to fix up the house - having two families in it for the last few years has been hard on it - and sell it. It also raises questions about horses. 2 people. 3 horses. And only one person who really likes riding. Hmmmm. Lots of options to explore and no answers. We're going to check out the Camp Verde area in early December for a potential place to move. We also want to check out parts of southern Utah, which in spite of my being a Baptist, feels like "God's Country" to me. The area I'm in continues to grow, and grow, and grow, and it has outgrown where I want to live. And my wife wants "greener" - the Filipina in her, I guess.








​
Anyways, I agree on spooking. I don't think it has much to do with aids or equitation training. I think it has far more to do with the horse's personality, experiences, and trust in humans - the independence of their thought. Bandit had a hard time dealing with the switch from NE Arizona to southern Arizona, but Trooper never flicked an ear at the difference between his mountain and desert time in central Utah and being ridden through a human neighborhood here. Bandit still finds human neighborhoods stressful. Trooper just really never gave a rat's rear. Nothing to do with riding style.

Saddles are a mixed bag. Some just feel right, but I think a rider ought to be able to adjust to a wide variety of saddles. A specialized sport or style of riding may benefit greatly from the right saddle, but you ought to be OK running, stopping, turning, etc in any saddle. I tend to dislike any saddle that tries to put you in a certain position. The Abetta I'm using now tends to have the stirrups set too far back. Oh well.


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## SueC

Dear @*bsms* , if you move to the right kind of place, you could take up this sport involving one person and multiple horses:










Is there enough room in Monument valley? And not too many cacti?










You'd have to trailer out, of course. Preferably from someplace green.

The chariot driver in the photo above in not wearing a helmet. Is this a health and safety concern?


PS: Imagine much less house cleaning and maintenance there is when you move to a smaller place - and what you two can do with that time and energy...


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## gottatrot

@Hondo and @SueC, you both are so funny!
@bsms, sounds like some big changes. Camp Verde looks like a pretty place. I have to say that if you choose to keep only one or two horses, boarding at the right place can be very nice if you want to have the ability to travel and such. Your family must all be very agreeable in order for you all to live together like that. My family is very nice but I don't think any combination of us could manage it.


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## Hondo

@bsms Camp Verde is getting up in my neck of the woods.

@gottatrot Families from the same household living together have a long long history of failure. Both on the farm where I was raised and on the ranch where I'm now living.

Heck, it can become a challenge to keep just one household in order much less two.

@SueC Can't just go traipsing around in Monument Valley. It is reservation land.


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## bsms

@SueC, when I went to college in Utah, they used to have chariot races on Saturday. During the winter, so wrecks landed in snow. The chariots were homemade and I don't remember any of them using more than one horse. It was all done purely for fun. Probably a thousand safety violations an hour, but I don't recall anyone getting hurt.

Boarding will probably be required someday. With two horses 20 years old or more, and one 10, odds are good I'll end up with one horse - unless I sell Bandit. Even then, unless the older horses coordinated their deaths, I'll eventually have one horse. And I think Bandit would do fine in a boarding situation. I think he'd enjoy watching all the other horses and people doing things around him.

I ought to look at selling him. I'd hate to do it, but Mia is better off in her home now than with me. Bandit might be better off living with an avid trail rider who would ride him daily. But I enjoy riding. In a different location, I might be willing to buy a good trailer and haul horses somewhere. Most of the places we're thinking about have 9,000' mountains nearby. Or higher. And less than a hour's drive. These are photos from Utah. Campe Verde has warmer weather, but I'll admit Utah is a place I love:








​ 






​ 






​ My wife would enjoy riding in places like that, too. And I think Bandit and Trooper would both be quite willing to spend a couple days camping and riding around in places like that. It would be SOOO nice to ride without constant worry about rocks and cactus, and where the heat and lack of water doesn't limit one to an hour or riding! I love southern Arizona, but this is a brutally harsh environment to ride in:








​ 
So...we'll see. Cowboy? In many ways he's my favorite horse. Too small for me, really, although OK for an hour of walking. But I don't think he'll ever really trust humans again. He's an excellent trail pony. Good for the farrier. Sensible on the trails. But even a mildly odd behavior by a human near the corral will scare him. If we have land, we can take him with us. 

Another option would be finding a retirement place for him where he can be around other horses and not have much to do with humans for the remainder of his life. It is a sad commentary on what horses think of humans and how too many lesson horses are treated! He's OK with us, but he sure wouldn't miss our company any! Not if he could be around other horses and largely ignore humans.

So...it is all in the air. I dread the thought of moving. The sheer effort of it! But it won't get easier with time and we know we don't really want two of us living in this big house for the next 20 years. It has served us well for 13 years. But it is not where we want to spend the rest of our lives. And thanks to gottatrot for hosting a thread where I can feel free to share these thoughts!


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> @*bsms* Camp Verde is getting up in my neck of the woods...


Yes, and I need to explore it more. Prescott itself doesn't impress us. Camp Verde looks more like a modest town. I suspect the mountains around it are just as nice as the mountains in Utah, and the weather is nice. I believe they have a lot of boarding options, which seems like a strange way to keep horses but obviously works well for many people!

We plan to use our timeshare in Sedona in early December as a base to explore the area 20-50 miles away from Sedona. I tend to think of Arizona as strictly SOUTHERN Arizona and the Sonoran Desert, but much of Arizona is forest. A picture search of "mongolian rim az" will show those who haven't been here what I often forget - a LOT of very wild and open forest country in Arizona!










https://keilproductions.com/blog/mogollon-rim-views









https://arizonahighways.wordpress.c...s-some-of-the-best/reid-helms-mogollon-rim-2/​ 
And Camp Verde has the advantage of having a decent selection of horse properties. Decisions.... Maybe we'll have a clearer idea after our December exploration. Arizona is a big state. But I've always loved southern Utah!


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## Hondo

I spent a month on two separate occasions near St. George. It's pretty nice there. And I've spent many months all over SE Utah. Some really great places that I'd like to revisit with Hondo but not likely to happen.

Only thing nice about Prescott is that it has a Walmarts, a Tractor Supply, and a Harbor Freight. And medical institutions. Other than that I'm in and out as soon as possible. 

My town of Wagoner, AZ has a population of about 5. Just about right.

So many trails, so little time.............


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## bsms

Wagoner - looked it up - looks to be in great country. Close enough that one can get shopping done, but far enough to keep most people away. Here are the two areas we are most serious about in Utah (click to enlarge):








​ Cedar City is within an hour of Zion Nat'l Park, Cedar Breaks NM and Bryce Canyon. Over 9,000 foot mountains just to the east.

Ritchfield is smaller (good), is in an agricultural valley a couple hours north and has an Interstate for easy access. My college room mate turned sheep rancher lives about 3 hours NE while Zion and Bryce are 1-2 hours south. Talked to him last night. He suggested looking for land I could build on and having a small manufactured home built on it. Depends on zoning and price, but that might allow me to have a home with pasture.








​ 
We figure we need to live someplace the grandkids will WANT to come visit! My wife grew up on the beach in the Philippines. Likes the ocean but doesn't want to live on it. She's willing to trade living in snow to have more green around. She loves the mountains.


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## Hondo

Here ya go. I have stick built and manufactured selected with 5 acres minimum. You can change to lots/land set high/low price whatever.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...040528,34.669358,-119.047852_rect/5_zm/0_mmm/

You can also just google lots or homes for sale near a particular town and get oodles of listings. Happy shopping!


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## bsms

Thanks, @*Hondo* . Bookmarked for convenience. I expect to check it regularly.

We adopted our son a few months after getting married. We'll be 32 years married in January, and this January will be the first month since adopting our son that we won't have kids in the house! It is forcing my wife and I to discuss goals in a way we haven't often done. 

I know she wants to travel more and raised the possibility of "retiring" the two older horses and selling Bandit. She countered that I'd have a big hole in my life without the horses. The possibility of boarding them instead of keeping them at home interested her (makes travel easier). We both think that if we could find pasture for them to live in, then finding someone who could keep an eye on them for a week at a time would be much easier than here - where caring for them included feeding 3 times a day and scooping poop a couple of times daily!

She also said she gets scared riding horses in the desert but enjoys riding them in the mountains, and even if we just hauled them up into the mountains a half dozen times a year and rode them there, she'd consider that a good return on the cost of the horses.

For over 30 years, our lives have revolved around raising kids. It is 'unsettling', yet a bit exciting, to contemplate life where getting kids off to school each day isn't a factor! Fortunately, I'm starting this new phase with my best friend as my wife...who is uncommonly understanding about horses.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Can't just go traipsing around in Monument Valley. It is reservation land.


Which at least means he could ask nicely. :Angel: If Monument Valley were in Australia, it would be National Park and therefore, no dogs or horses allowed by law, and you can't ask anyone nicely about that. You could only take a dog like this, for instance:










Have you got dog and horse bans in every square inch of US National Parks too?

@*bsms* , it's great to see that someone is using satellite imagery to help them decide where they might like to live!  Only horse riders, hikers, mountain bikers and other outdoor folk would think like that. I've spent time living in Perth (for senior school/university) and other depressing landscapes, and to me anyway, the natural environment is so important for how I feel. (@Hondo, I've now managed to spend several years not visiting our state capital! It's like a competition down here: "I've not been to Perth for five years!" - "Oh yeah? Well, I've not been to Perth for eight years!" - "Oh yeah? Well, I've not been to Perth this whole millennium.")

That sounds like such fun, chariot races in the snow. At my university, the main sport was drinking competitions, where throwing up the beer didn't necessarily eliminate a contestant, as long as they caught all of it and drank it again. There's no puke emoji here, but _yechhhhh_. I didn't participate and neither of us understand that mentality. We'll have a nice cider in summer after working hard outdoors, or strawberries in red wine, but to imbibe like a lot of Australians do is just anathema to us. Drink till you throw up and then have a hangover? As a _hobby_?  

Those photos and satellite images look so promising. And you don't really thrill to riding in a monotonous place with heat, rocks, cacti and rubbish bins - how great will it be to ride in wonderful scenery? This is going to be a very exciting next step! And you'll just _know_ when you've found the right place.

Moving is a pain in the posterior. But living in a great place you won't have to move from again is fabulous. And down-sizing frees up time, energy and money. Instead of two bedrooms you'll never need, you can have pasture etc, and probably spare change as well... you could also easily live off-grid like us and never pay another electricity bill... and have a house that heats and cools itself naturally... I'm sending positive vibes from the Antipodes for your move.

@*gottatrot* , you're an excellent host indeed. Thanks for the coffee! ;-)


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## Hondo

@SueC Dogs and horses allowed in most National Parks but with more restrictions than the National Forrest. Th degree of restrictions seem to be influenced by the usage density.

@bsms Here's another link set at 10+ acres land only and $100k max. The map on the left can be zoomed in or out and the red dots will show price if hovered. If left clicked while hovering the details will open.

Would require a lot of walking to pick up poop twice a day on 160 acres.

I'm not super skilled at this, just been spending a couple hours per day at it for the last month or so.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...,-110.610352,36.474306,-114.362183_rect/7_zm/


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Dogs and horses allowed in most National Parks but with more restrictions than the National Forrest. The degree of restrictions seem to be influenced by the usage density.


Now I'm definitely jealous! :angel2:

I understand that people don't want dogs and horses running over places willy-nilly, and that dogs can interfere with the breeding propensities of our native wildlife (many birds won't breed near tracks with regular dog walking - but I've yet to see the breakdown of how much of that is the dog, and how much the humans...).

However - it seems to me our Parks authorities mostly do this to avoid getting sued in case someone gets bitten by someone else's dog in a National Park. A couple of years ago, an interstate tourist was _carrying_ his _tiny_ Chihuahua up Bluff Knoll and got stopped, reprimanded and turned around by the ranger... Personally I think some people's kids are a greater hazard to wildlife, peace and quiet than a lot of dogs are... My dog doesn't tear branches off trees, run around hollering, leave lolly wrappers, tissue paper and uncovered droppings all over the place, etc etc etc...

In Scotland, from what I've heard, people are free to take their dogs hiking anywhere on the national estate - obviously under control etc (not necessarily on a leash). I sometimes wish I lived in Scotland. I hate leaving our dog home, and I have to admit I've snuck her in, in some off-the-beaten-track walks we've done - and she's not caused trouble. Obviously I can't take her where there's any public users other than ourselves. If I was single and solo, I'd take her on a leash every time, must admit, just for added protection (from humans of course).

There you go - I've admitted my law-breaking propensities.... :chicken2:

What would you all (anyone reading) do?




> Would require a lot of walking to pick up poop twice a day on 160 acres.


Do you have any effective dung beetles in US agricultural zones?


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## Knave

I’d break the rules too, but nowhere I have gone has had a no dog or horse rule. I have been a place with a leash rule, but there were many people visitors. I kept the dog leashed.


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## gottatrot

Fun conversation. We keep it in mind that we might move to a more remote area someday. People are moving up here from California at a rather alarming rate, escaping the higher crime, traffic, high taxes, and fires. We love the beach and the weather, but we don't care to be around too many people. 

@bsms, that area by Bryce and Zion is so beautiful! That would be amazing if you could live there. The big changes you are going through sound stressful, but things like that can make life so interesting too. 

@SueC, it's kind of a joke most places around here where there are "rules" about dogs. No one follows them and they don't fund staff to enforce the rules, so basically it's a free for all. I'd rather err on that side than have everything over-regulated like in some states. We've been to beaches in other states and countries where dogs were kept on leashes...that seems so wrong to me. Roaming free on a beach is dog heaven.

It might seem odd but I get nervous sometimes when the vet is coming to see a horse. I've been a little worried about Hero's appointment. 
When I told the barn owner I was having a vet visit, she decided to ask if the vet could do our fall vaccines for all the horses. So we had eight horses tied up at the lower barn when the vet arrived. 

Nala's owner was working, so I brought Nala down. Since there were no horses in the field, I left Amore's gate open, planning to bring the horses back in through there. When I started bringing Nala back up the hill after her shot, Hero decided to miss her and was stomping around at the tie rack. He tried to go down and roll but his lead was too short. The vet's assistant went over to try to sort him out, and he struck out toward her with his front hoof. I was appalled, and the barn owner offered to take Nala from me and bring her back up to the field so I could go reprimand my horse.

Apparently, the barn owner went in through the front gates and didn't notice Amore's gate was open. So Nala went into the field and came right back out. When I came up with another horse, the barn owner was retrieving Nala from where she'd wandered off to the far side of the property. 

The shots were finished, and all the horses back up the hill except Hero and Amore. The vet and assistant were a little unnerved by Hero's energy level that was now coming back down, and the vet said she wasn't sure about the stifle xrays. They require a lot of standing in the horse's kicking range. She asked if she could give him some ACE and I said sure. 

Hero was still fairly energetic but his eyes got droopy after the ACE, and we did some trotting out and flexion tests. The vet decided to use some real sedation for the xrays, so I was glad we could get them done. 

I'd sort of thought through all the possible scenarios, and what we found was my second best choice (first would be that every joint was perfect). The xrays showed that he did not have any bony lesions or OCD problems, or serious arthritis. The right stifle, which is the one I've thought was the worst, showed the tiniest speck of possible arthritis, and the right hock showed also the beginning stages of arthritis. The vet said that would be from compensating for the stifles over time.

She noticed how he does not put the stifle through the whole range of motion when he trots, and how he is sticky starting into a gait. She did not get the stifle to pop in the classic way, but when he was under sedation and relaxed, the assistant was holding the xray plate and his stifle had apparently been stuck because it popped out toward the assistant, startling her. 
If you haven't seen how this looks, here is how it looks when it's the "classic" catch which is a stage worse than Hero normally exhibits. His is more of a light catch/delayed release of the tendon, which makes him sore as it drags over the bone over and over but is not visible.





The vet thought it suspicious that he was not raced until 5, and that maybe he had more serious stifle lock when he was younger, since many horses get better after growing. She thought perhaps they used drugs to help him race and then gave up on him. 

The vet kept saying that Hero was very fit, and that she didn't think I could do any more in that department. The issue is that he is athletic enough to compensate and avoid using his stifles as much as possible, because they get sore. This means that even though his body is fit, those quad muscles are still not fit enough to help the tendon not catch. The phase one plan is to put him on Equioxx (anti-inflammatory pain pill) and then do stifle injections next week. Possibly if we get the pain and inflammation to go away he will use the stifles enough to where the muscles build up and prevent the catching. 

If that doesn't work, we can try the Estrogen or blistering, and if all else fails he can go get surgery on the tendons. I'm very glad to be working on things at this point, and we might prevent progression of the minor hock arthritis if we get him using his body right. The vet says if we can get this resolved, there will be nothing wrong with him to where he shouldn't do hard work. If there is a little chronic tendon inflammation that goes away with the Equioxx, she said there would be no harm in having him just stay on it to help him keep his joints healthy.

It's tricky because you don't know if a horse has a somewhat minor problem they are rather hysterical about (bucking and such), or they have a very major problem they are being stoic about. Having the studies done helps me feel more secure about how to proceed, and hopeful that Hero could get to feeling much better.


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## SueC

Typical Murphy's mayhem there with all the horses!

It's good that you still have non-invasive options you can try with Hero, to improve things further. I gather surgery would be expensive - how successful is it?

It's frustrating I'm sure to be dealing with this, but look what a long way you've come already, and all the things you've gotten right for this horse, who's lucky to have crossed paths with you. 

Do you know that analogy about pushing on a boulder? And the guy who does it for months, after being told to push on this boulder by his mentor? A few months later, he says, "I give up. I've pushed on this boulder for months and it's not moved an inch." And his mentor says, "Well, that wasn't the point. Go look in the mirror, look at your muscles, and look into your mind and see the perseverance you have practiced, and how pushing on this boulder has changed _you_, inside and out"

And you know - you've had a full workout for your intellect, and practiced (and therefore strengthened) important virtues like patience, perseverance, and compassion, _plus_ you have actually been able to move that boulder significantly as well!


----------



## Hondo

Yet another very educational post.

When Meka was taken to the vet for her annuals on Monday I talked to the vet about how well Hondo was doing and mentioned it was scary that he could easily be sold to someone as sound even though he had rotated and sunken coffin bones.

She said they usually do x-rays on pr-sale evaluations. It would be so scary now to buy a horse with what I've learned about them. Forget the cost of the horse. I'd be saving up money for the pre-sale.

It is sounding as though Hero is going to be ok. He's in good hands.

Are there still signs and bumper stickers in Oregon that read: DON'T CALIFORNICATE OREGON!

Very frequently it seems that people wanting to get away from cities and high density populated areas wind up bringing it with them when they relocate. Temple Grandin talks in a couple of places how there were no leash laws or yard fences in the small town where she was raised. The dogs were all over and nobody got bit and everything was just fine. She believes it should be that way now but I'm not sure how it would work in the heart of L.A. or New York. But county wide leash laws are not necessary in my book. Those laws were made by people living in high population areas. My nearest neighbor is 1 1/2 miles away and I'm still subject to a leash law unless I'm in the National Forest. Or using the dog for work.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Are there still signs and bumper stickers in Oregon that read: DON'T CALIFORNICATE OREGON!


:rofl: Would that be the influence of The Red Hot Chilli Peppers?



> Very frequently it seems that people wanting to get away from cities and high density populated areas wind up bringing it with them when they relocate. Temple Grandin talks in a couple of places how there were no leash laws or yard fences in the small town where she was raised. The dogs were all over and nobody got bit and everything was just fine. She believes it should be that way now but I'm not sure how it would work in the heart of L.A. or New York. But county wide leash laws are not necessary in my book. Those laws were made by people living in high population areas. My nearest neighbor is 1 1/2 miles away and I'm still subject to a leash law unless I'm in the National Forest. Or using the dog for work.


Which is bone-headed. I agree with you, and with Temple Grandin. And try not even being allowed to take your dog along even on a leash... :-( 

(PS: And it's actually frowned upon to put kids on leashes, and some of them sure as heck should be...) :evil:


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## knightrider

@Hondo, you hit upon a pet peeve I'd had for years and years, starting way back in Maryland when I was young. We lived in a rural community/small town, but people started moving in and wanting things the way they were in the city. It used to drive me crazy. There's too many flies, don't like the manure smell, etc.

As a youngish adult, I used to ride with my friends at times to Bowie Racetrack and sneak rides on the training track in the woods, which wasn't used in the afternoons. Part of the trek to the racetrack was through a development, and one sad day, a woman ran out of her door screaming, "Get your horses off my street!"

I turned to her and yelled, "Lady, this is BOWIE! (the cradle of American horseracing--town motto) If you don't want horses, move to Georgetown!!"


----------



## bsms

Sorry to hear about Hero's struggles. I sometimes forget how fundamentally lucky I've been with horses. Never had a vet exam done before buying, yet no major issues have come up. Yet. Any of them could GET a major issue tomorrow. The exams folks do are like helmets. They reduce risk, but cannot eliminate it. I worry about Bandit's knees. But if they are damaged from hard riding when young, I cannot correct them. Only try to figure out what to do when they start causing him pain. If they do.

It is a depressing part of owning horses, and I guess I go back to my low standard of ethics with horses: _Are they better of with us than without us?_ I suspect Cowboy would have preferred staying wild. I think the rest of my horses would prefer captivity, and Mia & Bandit & Lilly all genuinely seem to enjoy human company. We can try to do right by them. And as @*SueC* says, that trying changes us...just as those who don't try are changed in a different way.

I'm a different person than I was 10 years ago. Mia changed me. So has Bandit. The others to a lesser extent. I'm less angry. More willing to listen. More willing to look for "the back door" with humans as well as horses. But I also see people who have gone the opposite direction and become more domineering and more angry. It is difficult, though, when a friend is struggling with health issues. Particularly when the friend can't tell you how he really feels inside._



“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. 

*All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.* 

*There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.* Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

Click to expand...

_I know some theologians would tell me I'm full of it, but I don't think there are any ordinary horses, either. I don't believe any of us has ridden a mere mortal! A pastor told me once there are no dogs in heaven. I told him it didn't sound much like heaven if there were no dogs! But I believe dogs and horses will get to CHOOSE if they associate with us, and many will testify against their owners. And hopefully, a few will testify on our behalf:








Not everyone agrees with my theology, but the world would certainly be a better place if we lived our lives in the hope that someday we'll see Mia & Bandit & Hero & Halla and others standing there, waiting for us to rejoin them, with joy in their faces and bodies free from pain! How wonderful would it be if someday Mia could say, "_Bob, I've discovered this thing called a "beach"! Hop on and I'll show it to you! Hop on, and HANG ON!_" :winetime:​


----------



## Knave

I am glad that you got the appointment done! I hope something works in the end. I understand that athleticism blocking things... Bones does it at a learning level; he is too much an athlete to learn certain things correctly. 

I can’t imagine places with dog leash rules at home!! Our dogs all are free. If a dog was a bad dog, or one to bite, the truth is he probably wouldn’t live too long. My big girl’s Jemma has taken a major dislike for a UPS driver, and I happened to see her go after the poor guy who was running backwards and I running out of the house to stop her. Now I lock her up when UPS might come. It’s too bad, but if they had requested I put her down I would have. I didn’t by choice because she is an old dog and has been a member of our family for a long time. She always has been a bit snaky with people, but never had she actually tried to attack someone in her youth.

Here, if a dog is in someone else’s yard and they don’t want him there they shoot him. It is the law. Dogs can get to chasing livestock or scaring people if they don’t have that option. I am glad it works that way.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I know some theologians would tell me I'm full of it, but I don't think there are any ordinary horses, either. I don't believe any of us has ridden a mere mortal!


I agree!! Very good quote from C.S. Lewis.

If it is any consolation regarding knees, my barn owner said when she bought her horse at age 12, he had such knobby knees she had them xrayed. The vet said there was a little arthritis, so she should give him joint supplements and check on them in the future if he had any problems. She has noticed some intermittent, mild lameness so asked the vet if she can have them xrayed again. Well, now he's 25! So that was a very long time with no problems. 
@Hondo, I agree about all the scary things horses can come to us with. Definitely if I wasn't just rescuing and decided it didn't matter, I wanted to give the horse a good life anyway, I'd do a very thorough vet check. There is a horse at our barn that came with very bad hooves, so the owners thought with some good trimming he'd straighten out. But he got worse and worse, and after multiple xrays and special shoeing he is still gimpy on one front, but basically he has almost no digital cushion in that hoof because of his prior treatment, and pads don't completely make him comfortable. He's only 8 or 9. 
@SueC, I've been using the Tiger Balm on my calf tendonitis, and it has really improved it a lot. I'm skeptical about things, but it seems to work.

Poor Hero. I took him down to the beach for a walk on Friday, hoping to make it between showers. I was going to ride, but it kept raining and was windy so I had a "going forward" problem, and ended up leading (pulling) and trying to persuade him this was "fun." 

Just when we got on the steep dune down to the beach, and we were all exposed, the wind picked up and it started hailing. He turned his back to it and was just standing there looking at me with the water dripping off his face and the pellets bouncing off his body while I hunkered down beside him.

Then we continued down onto the beach and he did give me a nip twice, which I had to reprimand him pretty hard for. He's not really the type to suffer in silence, and he knew he was justified. He's just like Halla, he knows he's not supposed to bite me, and I get after horses hard for biting (smack their neck hard, give them a verbal reprimand, back them up a few steps). Still, just like Halla when I'm done with all that, he doesn't look chastised; instead, he stands with his head high looking down his nose and the expression is, "Really? You know I was within my rights to protest_ this _treatment."

I walked and trotted him a couple miles, with legs heavy from soaked jeans but the running did keep me warm until we were back at the barn. It was one of those times where the horse is wet everywhere except under the saddle pad.

With all that, I noticed Hero did not buck so was hopeful the Equioxx is working already. Today I took him out again, and it was not raining or windy. He did get led most of the way down to the beach, because I'm trying to not let him get into the habit of stopping when he gets nervous, so if he won't go forward after one ask I hop off and lead for awhile. 

The beach was scary today, there were lots of people with the holiday weekend and fires burning already even though it was still daylight. So we didn't go far, but again we were able to go over the deep sand without Hero having locking issues or bucking. He picked up the canter several times, just for a couple strides but his legs followed the right pattern and he didn't drop out or buck. I'm hopeful that the injections next week will do quite a lot for him. It might be that just removing the inflammation around the tendon allows things to move smoothly enough to not get hung up. 

I know sometimes the tiniest change can make all the difference, such as when my DH had trigger thumb and one injection made the swelling go down enough that his tendon didn't catch anymore, and then it didn't get inflamed again, the cycle was broken, etc. Fixed.


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## Hondo

Well, you're right @gottatrot . Hondo was going to be mine regardless of any problems found. He was basically a rescue also. And to me, of course, he is the very best horse in the whole wide world.

And, sigh, if there was to be another horse, it'd probably be the same again.


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## gottatrot

The vet had to cancel our appointment for Hero's joint injections today, because she was sick. Hopefully we can reschedule next week.

In the past week with the pain medications, I have seen subtle changes, which are that he is more easy to move forward, more willing about work, and he is getting better as he moves instead of worse. The stifle is sticking less. However, we had a wind storm so I have not been able to work him as much as I would have liked to this week. But since we are staying on the pain meds until further notice, there's not as much pressure to try to get him strong before we have to stop those like last time.

Yesterday he started out a bit stiff in the round pen, trying to canter with both hind legs together. I worked him out of it so I wasn't sure if he was locking or if it was habit. But during the process he kicked out and broke one of the round pen rails. In his defense, it was quite rotten, but I had to report him to the barn owner (who just laughed and said she will replace it).

Today we only got in a short ride. When I heard the vet was cancelling, I texted Nala's rider to see if she wanted to ride. It was raining off and on, she was focused on getting the right clothing and forgot to grab her saddle at home so arrived at the barn without one. She had tried Penny's dressage saddle but it was too small for her.

We tried my Solstice endurance saddle on Nala and I was surprised it actually fit her well. I hadn't thought it would have enough wither clearance, but there was a lot of room. That left me to try Penny's saddle on Hero, and it fit well enough for a short ride. It had clearance through the channel, although the shoulder angle was a little steep for Hero. I put on a very cushy saddle pad, we adjusted our stirrups and headed out.

We saw a ton of deer on the way to the beach and it almost seemed like Hero didn't see them, although I thought he must have. He just didn't care today. Ho hum. I believe he is less spooky when he is not worried about his legs working, and I think if they have inflammation the pain must remind him there is something wrong. 

We could see from far up on the dunes that the waves were huge, and I wondered if there would be any beach since we were just after high tide. At the top of the beach access, it looked like there would be enough beach to ride on, although there was foam flying everywhere. I couldn't remember riding in bad foam with Hero before, and I was wedged into the slightly small, squeaky and slippery saddle. Plus wearing my rain pants which diminish my range of motion aka ability to leap off a horse. 

But we wanted to try, so we went down. Hero went through the deep stuff with no issues so I knew his pill was helping a lot. Nala jumped once and almost got her rider off, and I was waiting for my turn but it never happened. We just walked big and trotted where we could, and Hero ignored the foam. As I've thought before, if I could get his stifle issue fixed, he'd be a comparatively steady horse. 

About four blocks down the beach, we ran into a surge and noticed the next wave was coming in much bigger and faster. We turned and headed quickly up the dune, and ended up with no beach left below, it was all submerged. So much for the schedule that said the tide was supposedly going out. 

We went to the top of the dunes and turned back, going through the deep dune grass. Nala did better than Hero, who was flummoxed by the way the grass separated into hillocks of sand around the roots, and created drop aways he kept stumbling into. The grass was deep and rubbed the horses' bellies, and it is sharp so that probably did not feel good either. 

Eventually we stumbled free, onto the mowed part of the dune near our own beach access, and were able to begin trotting toward home. Everything went well but for some reason in the last few yards before home, Hero let out a squeal and did a small and controlled rear. Horses like Hero mess up your priorities and I felt pleased that his hind legs were feeling so strong underneath him, and wondering if rearing might help build his stifle muscles. Then I realized he had only had two small plunges on the ride, no bucking, and that all seemed like progress.


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## Knave

That sounds like progress! I’m sorry the vet cancelled on you. I was talking to my friend the other day, and she said she hasn’t seen the stifles stick on the horse since the injections. He has been great, and she’s ridden him out a lot since then.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Those who think every horse can go in a snaffle with the correct training have not ridden every horse. :wink:


This reminds me of another saying: _If you think there is good in everybody, then you haven't met everybody! :rofl:_


I'm getting a lot of smiles and laughs and gorgeous scenery descriptions out of looking at your early journal - as well as a good dose of horse and rider!  I feel like I'm coming to know Halla personally, and now a part of me doesn't want to read on to when you lose her, but I will.


Hope you and DH and Amore and Hero have a great weekend!


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## Hondo

My maternal grand mother said: "There's so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us".


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## bsms

I think any horse CAN be ridden well in a snaffle, with the right training. The only problem is that some horses will need 50-75 years of the right training to get them there.

I'd prefer a goal of trying to get horses ready to ride in a curb bit with slack reins. It still gives the rider an option to remove slack in a bolt or when the horse is excited, but I think it emphasizes the horse's willingness and cooperation. It is hard to push a horse to do something he really doesn't want to do while using slack reins. It also makes it hard to balance on the reins.

But of course, plenty of western trainers have proven you can then use brute force and vicious intimidation to achieve the LOOK of slack reins while scaring the horse into obedience. Humans can twist almost anything into justification for abusing a horse. For any who haven't seen this before, this is Tom Robert's description of how he learned to use slack reins to teach a horse. It was a big help in turning Mia around. @*gottatrot* & @*SueC* and others on HF also helped, suggesting it is better to teach a horse confidence than endlessly controlling him while he is not. And of course, it doesn't work with all situations and all horses - but it always ought to be an option considered:


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## knightrider

Ah! My bullock cart story! My absolute favorite favorite, many thanks to you @bsms. Thanks for posting it again!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I think any horse CAN be ridden well in a snaffle, with the right training. The only problem is that some horses will need 50-75 years of the right training to get them there...


Ha ha, yes.

Something I am learning is that it's tricky with horses with body issues, because you need to work them to get them through the issues, but doing that can bring up new issues, that you then have to work through later!

I took Hero for a short ride around the property last night. Nala's rider thought it was too wet, although it wasn't currently raining, so she wanted to try for another day. I was aware that Hero was feeling spooky because someone came walking up the hill and I had his lead tied very long so he could eat from a bucket while I was tacking up. As soon as he saw the stocking hat appear he spooked clear to the end of the lead.

Something I noticed was that when we rode off, Hero walked out almost eagerly, and did not feel sticky about leaving. That was a good sign. Knowing he was spooky, I talked to him as we went by all the spots where he might jump. He was trotting out nicely, and I had him canter over uneven ground to see if he could do it. 
He did buck some between good strides, but I noticed it felt different, more coming up and back to me than down and forward. Like he was pushing off his hind end more than his front. 

We trotted some more, then came around the end of the field where they are building some houses across the road. This is something the horses are used to seeing and hearing all day from their fields, but I guess being alone and a little closer was different. Someone started hammering and Hero jumped forward and then went right up into a high rear. I was almost feeling like I was going to slide off the back, but then he went back down.

Needless to say, I was not happy about this type of spooking, and was whacking him on the side of the neck with my hand while he was still up, and gave him a yank on the reins halfway down. This rearing under saddle is new since he started the pain medication, so I am guessing he is feeling stronger in the hind already. It sounds strange, but I think he may be experiencing more thrust than he is used to, as he is using the muscles more, and suddenly he is rearing. 

I've got to get him using the right amount of brakes when he does hold himself back, so he doesn't pop himself up in the air. I might do some more ground exercising this week so I can see how he is using his body and help him get the feel of things more safely. 
It seemed like he was more enthusiastic about the ride than he's been in awhile, so I believe his stifles are feeling better.


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## gottatrot

Regarding the previous post:
I kept thinking about how it all was kind of strange how Hero was acting yesterday, so spooky and extra reactive. I thought what I wrote was kind of making sense at the time, but why the spooking if all that was just from him feeling better (my theory) from the pain meds? 
I guess over the years working with doctors and nurses, I'm in the habit of needing a theory to start out with at least, and then throwing things at it to see if they fit, otherwise changing to something that fits better. 

Anyway, this is slightly funny to me, because all the pondering made me suddenly remember something important. The day before yesterday, when I was letting Hero eat from a bucket, I accidentally had Amore's bucket too close, and after leaving for a minute and coming back, I realized Hero had eaten Amore's carrot pieces on top of the bucket, which also had her Prascend pill in it. 

That pill for Cushing's is rather powerful, and although it can cause lethargy when horses first start on it (as happened to @SueC's Sunsmart), some other horses get very excitable and even aggressive. Probably for a healthy horse it could cause some craziness, because it makes dopamine work better in the brain. I'm guessing this was the cause of the exuberant reactions to everything yesterday.


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## SueC

Better make sure _you_ don't end up accidentally eating the "spiked" carrots, @gottatrot! ;-)


Funniest one I ever heard was about the vet who'd loaded up a horse-sized dose of adrenaline, and then stuck it on his driver's seat while putting on his overalls. And then he sat on the seat, to put on his overboots... and copped a fair bit of the horse-sized dose into his own hindquarters...


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## Hondo

@gottatrot I'm assuming you have or will give Hero a long soft meaningful hug while explaining with heart felt apology for resorting to predator aggression with that slap on the neck

It's nice to know I'm not the only one that loses it at times


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## knightrider

From @SueC


> And then he sat on the seat, to put on his overboots... and copped a fair bit of the horse-sized dose into his own hindquarters...


And THEN what happened????


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## SueC

I wasn't there, but apparently he was sweating a lot and sort of climbing the walls and talking rapidly but disconnectedly and they were trying to find him an antidote... he did make it, and I would suppose he never put a loaded syringe on a seat again!


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## gottatrot

That is crazy about the vet and the adrenaline...definitely could have killed him if his heart couldn't take it. I'll try not to take the Prascend by mistake - once I tried a Sudafed and felt like I should unzip my skin it made me so jittery. Don't think I want any extra Dopamine.

I managed to hit a nice low tide today and had a good ride on the beach with Hero. He was his usual self, not overly spooky and no insane leaping onto the hind legs. We passed through three different groups of deer and again I experienced the comparative bravery of the TB - as long as he understands and isn't startled, he just looks at the deer and watches them hop around. Same with other stuff on the beach. The Arabs would always have to get excited even if they saw and understood.

What is very nice is how easily Hero heads out now that he is on the Equioxx. I was able to ask him to trot and canter away from the barn, and there was no reluctance. This tells me it is only a product of pain. He struggled with the canter less than 50% of the time, so that's better already. No bucking up or down the hills.

You can't fool your body - it knows when you've survived something dangerous and warns you the next time it might occur. The first little hop from Hero and my legs got infused with some wobbliness. But as the running shirt says:








So away we went, and it was a great ride. I told Hero many times what a lovely boy he was, and he is the type that says, "I know."

Nerd alert:
Something that shouldn't annoy me because it is so minor, but it really does! If I talk about the winter weather, people often say "Technically it's not winter." I'm sorry, but those who stay indoors do not have the right to claim it's not winter - those of us who are getting up early to get animals exercised before dark, in the cold and rain and wind, we are the ones who can say when it's winter! 
:smile:

However, I would also like to point out that meteorological winter is different from astronomical winter. The solstice comes in late December here, but where I live, the temperatures are coldest, it's stormiest and it rains the most from late November through early February. So that is our meteorological winter, regardless of what the calendar says. So don't tell me it's not winter!! :smile::smile:

That being said, I've pretty much adapted to what has to happen after the time change, which is that I have to split my sleep into two sections. It's always difficult after going all those beautiful months sleeping a solid 8 hours after work...then suddenly if I want to get outdoors I have to get up after 5 or 6 hrs and sleep more later after dark. I'm doing better with it now that I know having two sleep periods is not considered unhealthy, and that they believe people slept in two chunks of time rather than one before electricity.


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> Anyway, this is slightly funny to me, because all the pondering made me suddenly remember something important. The day before yesterday, when I was letting Hero eat from a bucket, I accidentally had Amore's bucket too close, and after leaving for a minute and coming back, I realized Hero had eaten Amore's carrot pieces on top of the bucket, which also had her Prascend pill in it.
> 
> That pill for Cushing's is rather powerful, and although it can cause lethargy when horses first start on it (as happened to @*SueC* 's Sunsmart), some other horses get very excitable and even aggressive. Probably for a healthy horse it could cause some craziness, because it makes dopamine work better in the brain. I'm guessing this was the cause of the exuberant reactions to everything yesterday.





When I was on that big trail ride this last summer, we had one day where the man who rented me a horse, HIS horse went bananas. You see, it had been quite calm all the other days, but this day, the mintue he hit the saddle, this horse was whirling, and jumping and totally excitable, for almost the whole ride. It was out of character for him.


A friend had offered him some Previcox, that medicine they use for dogs for arthritis? And you give a hrose 1/4 of a single pill as a daily dose.
HE misunderstood, and I can't remember if he gave the horse only one whole pill, or all FOUR of the pills she gave him. 

So, he speculated that the medicine made the horse sort of 'crazed', becaue the next day, he was normal.


Do you think this could possibly cause agitated behavior? 



I wonder . . . 

I kind of doubt that.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> Do you think this could possibly cause agitated behavior?


I did read that a rare side effect of Previcox was excitability.
It was like one horse in a hundred, something like that. Maybe more common effect with an overdose?

Yesterday it was what we call "freezing cold" here, with the day time temperatures in the low 40s and nights down into the 30s. With the wind chill it felt like it was in the 20s, and probably we'd be warmer if we wore actual warm clothes.

It felt cold enough that I decided to lunge Hero instead of ride, so I brought both horses down, put Amore out in the outdoor arena, and took Hero into the big field to lunge.

How do I describe what happened? I started him out walking, and he was very spry, and suddenly he burst forward and the next thing I knew, he was galloping. Then he changed, and I saw HIM, the horse he really is, hidden inside a body that has been malfunctioning. 

It was just pure joy, coming out of him, and once he started galloping he wasn't going to stop. I put my whip down and got both hands on the line, ready in case I needed to lean back for direction. But he just kept flying around, and I mean he was trying to turn into a Pegasus. At least once during a loop around the circle he'd try to take off flying into the air, with hang time.









Hopefully the barn owner won't mind the divots, because Hero did tear up the field a little. It wasn't the prettiest gallop, his hind legs were close together most of the time, but he sure was doing his best to run like a racehorse. He was so happy, "Look, my legs are working!!" and when he was finally done, he dropped into a canter and went around and around, stretching his hind legs forward farther underneath himself than I'd seen yet. 
Even when he cross cantered a couple of times, he fixed his hind legs on his own, and easily, putting them back in the right order. 

Hero was so happy, he kept bursting forward when I led the horses back to their field, trotting off in front of us. Normally he lags behind Amore. Now I'm quite hopeful if we add the joint injections Thursday, that he'll start functioning quite better. I was not sure if he'd ever be able to gallop, honestly.
He sure could move his legs fast, when he was able to. It was astonishing to see him looking like a real Thoroughbred.

DH has been listening to this song called "I Am the Highway" by Audioslave. I was thinking about the lyrics as applying to how we perceive our horses. 
"_I am not your rolling wheels, I am the highway. I am not your carpet ride, I am the sky..._"
I think people minimize horses down into "the ride," when in reality it is a whole life, an important personality that we see in front of us. 

Yes, I am spending many hundreds of dollars on a free horse, one that has had problems. But he's not just wheels, he's an entire highway, and his life is important. What was it worth today to see that a horse with chronic tendon catching, chronic inflammation that has affected his whole body from poll to hooves, is not really a grump but has all this will to live with joy and run and leap around inside?


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## Hondo

Holy Mackerel! I'm assuming that's Hero? Now I know what a horse in prime condition looks like. What a great day you both had.

Edit: BTW, your hundreds of dollars could result in a horse that could have cost thousands. So happy for you both.


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## gottatrot

Thursday Hero had his stifle injections, and it went very well. Thankfully he was calm and a good boy, since it wasn't the whole chaos this time with many horses coming and going. I was happy the vet could see he's not normally pawing and agitated about tying and such. He stood perfectly still for his sedation injection and it doesn't take much to get him sedated, and then of course he was nice and sleepy for everything else. 

He has to have three days off, so I can take him out Monday to see how he does. He seemed a little sore yesterday, which is normal after having things injected into the joint spaces.

DH and I went treasure hunting after the vet. Winter brings some big changes to the coastline, so DH thinks it might be a good time to find something unusual such as beeswax from a shipwreck.
The Mystery of the Beeswax Wreck | Oceanscape Network
So we arrived at sunset, which was an hour before low tide, and walked along the shoreline with flashlights.

It was bitterly cold, but if you go looking for treasure you're sure to find some. 
In the winter, the difference between where waves end up on the shore is huge. You might walk along for five minutes at one spot, then suddenly a wave comes in for hundreds more feet and you have to run and run to escape getting wet. 

DH was not so careful in the dark, and got wet up to his knees. He has some kind of crazy genes; he was never cold in Iceland, even when I had actual hypothermia. After awhile I was concerned and tried to assess him to make sure he was not getting cold (it was around freezing), but he said his back was sweating from the running around and his feet did not feel cold. 

We did not find beeswax, or gold doubloons, but there was a lot of treasure to be had. One treasure was to realize how special it was to have the right person (and dog) with you, who think a date night is to be out on the beach after dark in the wintertime, eating a cold deli sandwich that was dropped into salt water, with hot coffee in a mug that tastes so good after hiking several miles.

My doubloons looked like sand dollars, and most survived being in my pockets. DH saved a crab's life, freeing it from where it was stuck. Walking back, the best treasure of all was turning off our lights and seeing the Milky Way, and millions of stars all around us from horizon to horizon.


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## gottatrot

Note to self if I have a horse with stifle injections in the future:
Light workout after three days off means _light_. 

I hesitate to say "bad" about a ride, but it was not smooth today at all. Hero was trotting around the field, and trotted down the hill to get tacked up, and was walking eagerly toward the beach. I took all of these things as signs he was feeling great and was not still sore from the injections.

Well, the vet had said 3 days off, then 3 days light work, so I thought maybe that would mean a short beach ride with Nala.

Once we got to the beach Hero trotted out for a half mile and I thought it was all fine. Then he started bucking and getting agitated, so apparently the stifles are still very sore. I thought walking would maybe be fine, but once we were out about another mile he was done.

We couldn't keep up with Nala, because Hero was kicking out in the back and pawing in the front. So I hopped off to lead him for awhile, hoping that would be better. As my feet hit the ground, Hero dropped to his knees. I did not hold back on yanking him up as he was thinking it would feel good to roll wearing his $1500 saddle. I got him up for five seconds, then he plopped down again. This time I yanked him up and got him walking right away. Whew, that was a close one. He was rather determined.

Once I got off we went about a half mile and he was kicking up high behind, then trotting off, and finally I figured if he could move forward that well he could carry me. There was nothing very good to use as a mounting block, so I ended up trying from the ground. I'm fine with a horse walking away, but even with a good grip on the reins Hero took off at a canter when I was halfway up. I had some fun riding the canter on my belly while getting him slowed enough to where I could leap back off. Stinker.

Finally I was able to get aboard, and then he was having trouble going forward again. Ugh. Rode another half mile and then got off and walked most of the way home. He was squealing to himself and grunting, and I told Nala's rider I always said I preferred horses that let you know when something was bothering them. Except he _really_ gets all hysterical about it. 
Well, I learned my lesson, so tomorrow will be an off day, and then I'll do a very light exercise the next day, and go from there.


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## Knave

The bad rides are part of it though right? If we stay quiet about the bad then everyone is lost wondering “Why am I the only person who has issues like this?” The parts that are hard add value to it all.

I am sorry about your ride. Bones is emotional too, although quite stoic about pain considering he has odd feelings about pain... Hopefully it was just a momentary thing. I am glad you came home none the worse for wear.


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## phantomhorse13

Yikes.. that was one interesting ride.


Maybe the sand is too yielding a surface for him right now?


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> Maybe the sand is too yielding a surface for him right now?


Yes, definitely. He was moving very well on the grass and asphalt, but the sand was quite soft today.

I got my "Essential Hoof Book" today as recommended by @Hondo. Of course I haven't read it all yet, but I went through the sections and looked at all the photos and captions. This is a _great_ book, and I honestly believe every horse owner should have it. All of those quoted in the book are truly experts and their individual expertise is complimentary to one another. The graphics are very clear and easy to understand.

Even if you never do any trimming yourself, it is very important to at least have a basic grasp of this information about hooves. Many things I've had to learn slowly over the years and deal with in horses is explained thoroughly in this book. It talks about horses having a larger shoulder due to high/low, about club hooves, about laminitis in depth, all things I've personally dealt with. 

I didn't read all the text yet, but my impression is that it is very balanced; it advocates for barefoot but not in a preachy way, but also talks about properly shoeing horses and some myths about how shoes harm horses. It doesn't try to make everything simplistic but instead talks about how everything is complex and sometimes the damage is irreparable. I appreciate that since I've been around many people who say "this can all be fixed," when in reality the hoof and body issues revolve around each other and can be very difficult to improve or the damage is already permanent.


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## Dragoon

Hey! I just got my copy a couple of days ago!
My horse saw the farrier today and I showed him the book and he was quite interested. He said it looks like a very good book. So, yeah, its farrier-approved, too!

I'm really hoping it will improve my understanding of hooves...I'm someone who really enjoys books but reading online, not so much. 
It will be spring before I get to read, though. I'm currently taking care of my BO's farm as well as working full time nights. Not much time for sleeping or anything. But the horses are all fat and happy I'm not riding them, likely...cannot keep up with HF, for sure. You're all so chatty! Lol


PS I had forgotten where I had seen it recommended, so it is Hondo I have to thank? Thanks, Hondo!


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## Hondo

Glad yall are liking the book. I'm on page 77. The first section on anatomy is tedious but needs to be read first in my opinion. Then they begin going into very great and descriptive detail for assessing hoof from the outside.

The really great thing about this book is, I believe, it's value as reference material, plus of course several things I've already read that I did not know. But with the index and all the cross reference and index of pictures will facilitate going back to it over the years when one want to refresh a memory of certain details.

I'm expecting this book to have a great and long future.

Short story how I discovered it.

I get daily suggestions of new friends since joining facebook again. As witness to what facebook knows about me, many of the suggestions have people with horses.

One of the authors of the book was suggested as a new friend. When I clicked on the picture I saw the book advertised on the site. Hmmmm.....trying to sell a book huh? With time on my hands I clicked on the book to see what this person had. Then when I started reviewing the book I decided wow I think I need to order this. I could have very easily missed it and not even be aware of it until I heard about it from somewhere else.

@gottatrot He was doing so much better prior to the injections I have to believe he'll be doing even better once the soreness goes away.


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## gottatrot

I'm not used to horses that actually take time off if you stop working them. Arabs are quite good at self exercising, and would never dream of just dropping out of fitness altogether. I think if Hero is sore at all he just stops moving. Add a little stormy weather and I've been spending some time just getting him limbered up again. I think he's getting there though.

I trimmed the horse hooves tonight - Amore has a touch of thrush in her club hoof frog and a couple small spots of WLD. I was able to pretty much trim them out I believe, it was trying to enter a couple hoof cracks she developed in the summer. One is from an old scar seam that grows down from her coronary and often splits a little at ground level. The other is in the club hoof toe. 

My B-I-L sent me a new style of headlamp for Christmas that I had asked for. It's pretty nice for hoof trimming under artificial light because it is a broad light so you don't have to focus it on one part of the hoof. We always open our presents and use them right away, LOL. Pretty cheap and handy.
https://www.amazon.com/OV-LED-802100-Broadbeam-Illumination/dp/B07GT49F9C

My strategy with Hero is to get him moving more gradually to see if that helps. Tonight I just focused on having him striding really strongly forward with his hind end at the walk and trot for fifteen minutes. It has occurred to me that he might need to have his strength gains happen very slowly and progressively. 

I've been working on a goal this year which is to try for a sub-2 hr half marathon before I get too old to improve my running times. Seemed like a worthy goal. However, I've failed with a couple different online "tried and true" programs. Supposedly if you do a long run each week that is quite slow, and then do shorter tempo runs and sprints, at some point it meshes magically into your body tolerating a faster long run.

Problem was that I kept pulling abdominal muscles when sprinting, which would give me sideaches on the long runs. Tried some of the footfall tricks like a tempo of 180 steps per minute...yeah. All that experimenting didn't work out. Truth is, I've been running for 28 years and I decided to drop all that wisdom and go with all my experience and how I think it could be done.

It's tricky, sort of like how in college I could barely study and get a B, or I could work super super hard to get an A. I can run a half marathon in 2 hrs 10 min fairly easily. Yet I'm having to put in a lot of work to try to drop a minute a mile. 
What seems to be working is very slow gains. I started adding a half mile at a time, upping my speed a little, and already I am doing six miles at a pace where I could finish in 2 hrs 5 min. My plan is to keep building on this slowly.

So I'm going to try a similar strategy for Hero. Instead of overwhelming his body and making him sore, I'm going to try adding half mile or ten minute increments onto his work, and to only add distance OR speed each time. We'll see how that goes.


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## gottatrot

Horses are not for wimps. 

I've been very disciplined about getting Hero worked. We've had some storms rolling through, so when I couldn't get him exercised, I made sure it was on a day with the best weather. That way he would at least be getting out around the fields and not standing under shelter. Mostly I am fine with not having an indoor arena. However, we're at the shortest daylight of the year, and the worst weather so I have to say the wishful thinking does sometimes enter my mind.

I've had Hero in better cardio fitness I think, but he is probably in the best muscular shape he's been. I've been focusing on strengthening, doing short sprints up hills and things like that. I know certain things take a long time to show results, like getting good hoof growth from hoof minerals, hooves showing better balance from better use of the body, good diet and muscle strengthening, etc. 

Last night I was looking at Hero and I think his muscles are looking the most balanced they have so far. His coat is shiny, his hooves are finally getting some sole depth (I wasn't sure if that was possible, but they are slowly improving after a year of trimming), and he is often stepping smartly over gravel that used to make him stop and tiptoe.

All of this sounds wonderful, but also this guy is quite a handful now sometimes. He's feeling more powerful, I think, and now I am wondering...was he gelded late? He was only raced at 5, and he was listed as a gelding then. Who knows what happened before that time. Let's just say all the geldings at the barn are Casper Milquetoast compared to him. He was kind of "something," but now he's building a better physique and it's making him feel quite full of himself.

The worst day this week when I had to exercise him, the winds were 40 mph-ish with gusts 60-80. Plus we had 2 inches of rain. I can't say when I've ever exercised horses with rain sheets on, but it felt cruel to take them off. I don't know anyone else who would be out there. But I know it won't harm any of us, and I am seeing progress. So I put Amore in the outdoor arena so Hero wouldn't feel as put out, and it was funny when I went to get her after we were done because she wouldn't turn but kept her back into the wind, so I had to go around her to put her lead rope on.

Hero and I "walked" around the big field. My rain gear failed within five minutes, the wind pushing wetness up the sleeves and down the collar. I had to put my hood down because Hero was raging a bit and bolting around me, leaping and kicking out and I needed peripheral vision. Well, we got a good work, he bit my coat once and I just have to treat him like a stallion because he does behave that way. 

Yesterday the wind and rain were lighter so I ran him up and down a hill that is about 1/8th of a mile and pretty steep. The first time he was docile, the second time he stewed, the third, fourth and fifth times he was "not cool" with going up and down so jumped around and got a nip on me once, which meant he had to back up a ways quickly so that was good exercise too.

He watches closely, and if I coil the lead rope end he knows I might whap him with it on the nose, so he stops trying to crowd in and get a nip at me. He's very good, except for when he's hot or upset, and then I have to handle him like a stud horse.
He gets to where he feels like the horses in this video - then all I do is stay out of the way like the handlers do:





There was finally some hard sand on the beach! So we went out (by ourselves) and Hero had some successful cantering, and kept trying to pick it up on his own which means he is locking a lot less. If he is sore or stifle locking a lot he doesn't try. Still some kicking out and bucking, but less for sure.
I know that will keep happening unless (until?) I can get those quad muscles strong enough to prevent the slipping tendon.

We had a good ride but near home Hero heard a horse calling out and got quite excited. I was already off and leading him, so I just had to put one hand on each rein under his nose and try to keep him going forward-ish as he cavorted. 

When I turned Hero loose, he cantered very strongly down the steep hill in the pasture, which I have never seen him do before. He normally always walk out, finding the downhill too challenging.


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## bsms

"The worst day this week when I had to exercise him, the winds were 40 mph-ish with gusts 60-80. Plus we had 2 inches of rain."

I'm such a wimp! It was 60 degrees yesterday morning, no wind and overcast. I didn't ride because "It's not warm enough!" In my defense, though, I'm reading this at 3 AM after catching a few hours sleep in a chair. A cold/flu/SOMETHING that has caught hold of me for a month. Each time I get over it, it kicks back in a couple days later.

The horses got some exercise, though. The two shelters are right next to each other. I put a 12' corral panel between them so one horse couldn't claim the entire thing. I watched yesterday as they took turns standing on either side, fighting each other. Most of the time, Bandit was the spectator while Cowboy and Trooper tried to kill each other, biting, kicking, half-rearing - while safely separated by the 12' panel!

Nothing to stop them from taking a few steps and confronting each other for real. But that would have ruined things. So with a panel between them, they acted like a couple of really tough dudes! Not a mark on either at the end, so they repeated it a half dozen times during the day. Did I mention they are both at least 20?

I watched from our living room, blowing my Rudolph-red nose and feeling a lot less vigorous. The thread on doing ORS was in the background of my mind. Many of the videos I've seen of someone doing a ORS had horses acting fresh. Not bolting. Not spooking. Just...a bit full of themselves. Which the riders then "shut down". When Mia felt that way, she just did floaty trots or pranced. When Bandit feels that way, he plays tough guy. Bandit's tough guy attitude is about as real as the Bitey-Face and pawing Trooper and Cowboy did yesterday.

And now. I could hear the panel rattling. Lots of moonlight. 3:20 AM. Stepped outside. In the moonlight, I'm guessing Bandit and Cowboy were being tough guys. I swear, it is like being the Designated Driver staying sober in a bar, watching guys strut around! Scolded them, hoarsely, but 10 minutes have now passed and they are at it again. The joys of having horses at home!

And of course, that IS one of the joys of having horses at home! Now...time to go blow my nose, gargle and get back to my chair. If the horses don't make too much noise, I should be good for another couple hours of sleep. Glad to hear that Hero is getting full of himself! I am sure Cowboy was gelded late, which may be why he is always up for a game of Macho Horse. Good night, gottatrot! :ZZZ:


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## Hondo

Sounds like Hero's stifle problem is slowly but surely slipping into the past. No thanks! Don't want no hot blooded horses here. 40 years ago, maybe, today no.

I actually got to see Hondo rear straight up for the first time ever just the other day. Rimmey thinks of himself as a stud and gets kind of pushy at times. Hondo usually just moves away but sometimes says enough is enough.

They were both straight up facing each other about 6 feet apart waving their front hooves at each other without showing any real intent to strike. About two minutes later they were back to grazing side by side.


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## Knave

I am sorry. I dislike those time frames. Cash is a bit in one, but only because he is two.

Bones has the studdy thing going for him. It is really difficult at times. I never have done much with studs. I rode them a few times when I had to. I also said, “I’ll treat him like a stud.” However, I don’t think I actually did, which made it more difficult maybe.

Anyways, he is such a good a kind horse that now I have put my kid on him as her main mount for the year. Kept out of specific situations she will be fine on him I believe. Everyone laughed when they heard she would be riding him. Husband said, “Well, they both act like jr high students. Maybe they’ll learn something.” Lol

So, there is hope. Those days are definitely still there though.


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## gottatrot

Merry Christmas!!
@bsms, hope you are feeling better. The lack of energy we feel when we're fighting an illness is not being a wimp, it's how we are forced to rest. There's a battle going on inside.

We had some good times with family over the last several days. Very nice. 

One of my best Christmas presents was getting out with Hero yesterday and today. Yesterday I put him on a lunge line and I just walked and jogged to stay with him as he cantered around and around the big field in big loops, stronger than I've ever seen him. He went up and down hills, over rough patches and didn't miss a beat.

Today I rode him down to the beach and once we were down on the sand I gave the cue that he could go if he wanted, and he just took off in a canter. No hopping, bucking, futile attempts, just whoosh, off he went. It was flat and smooth, and he went a couple of blocks. Just lovely.
The treatments are working, hooray!


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## SueC

Merry Christmas/New Year period, everyone! 


You're not alone, @bsms - I've turned into a pudding, besides some necessary maintenance chores. I think sometimes we just need a rest. You've got an obvious excuse - get well soon!


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## gottatrot

I was having fun tonight comparing photos of Hero from last February (first photo) and tonight (second photo). Not the best pictures, but I could see some real differences. I've learned that changes come slowly but if you are using a horse right and/or getting them feeling better there should be progress in a good direction rather than a bad one.

Hero's neck has gotten thicker, and has a more rounded muscle on top. That's from him using his body over various terrain and hills rather than being ridden with his head held low or with rein contact. 

His chest muscles have gotten bigger, and there is more muscle around the back of his withers and behind his shoulder, which makes his shoulder look more sloped. 

I'm quite happy that he's developed more muscle over his sacroiliac area, so his hindquarters are more rounded and the "hunter's bump" is not pronounced anymore. The sacroiliac used to feel like two hard knots, and now it's a wide, flat muscle on top of the rump there.

He has a bit more of a winter coat this year, so the muscle definition is less obvious. It's hard to see but his back muscles are getting more developed too. 
















Overall, I think Hero is looking a lot less like "a committee put him together," as my friend described his conformation last summer. By next summer I suspect he'll be looking fairly well balanced.

A couple more pics from tonight:
Notice how he spreads his hay snack everywhere while I'm getting his tack ready.

















Happy New Year!!


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## gottatrot

Sometimes I find it difficult to align my thoughts about horses with others. For example, there are some common phrases and ideas that sound fine but they taste sour to me.

Such as, "There are so many good horses out there, why waste your time on a bad one?" This goes along with the philosophy that horses are our hobby and why spend time working through big problems or putting yourself at risk when it's supposed to be fun. 

We can't all have the same philosophies, or see life the same way. My perspective (curse?) is that after meeting a horse, or hearing about a horse, I am drawn to thinking about what happens next. What happens when you send him away? What happens when you give up? 

Along with this I wonder why. Why is he like this? How can I understand his motivations? What can I learn from him? 

Not everyone wants to be challenged, to learn and excel. To me, horses are a big mystery, an endless challenge. They do come with risk, but in learning how to mitigate those risks I've found that sometimes (usually?) perceived risk is far higher than actual risk. 

Sadly, Amore, Halla and Hero would all have been labeled as neurologically impaired, crazy and many on this forum would have been recommended that they be put down if they had not ended up with an experienced and also determined (and risk taking) owner. Wonder, that gorgeous, amazing athlete would be considered dangerous and aggressive.


> The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn, feel, change, grow or love. Chained by his certitude, he is a slave; he has forfeited his freedom. Only the person who risks is truly free. _Leo Buscaglia_


I do not believe that my way is THE way, or that others should work with challenging horses. However, I do feel there are many truly wonderful horses that are never given a chance.

I feel no need to physically harm my horse, or to feel physically threatened by him. We are slowly progressing toward a deeply trusting relationship, but Hero still doesn't agree with some things, yet I know he will come around in time. I believe I understand the "why." He is big, powerful, and developed a habit of reacting in a way that left no doubt about his opinions. All I need to do is change his opinions.

For example, he has decided that I am trustworthy to handle all of his hooves, to do what I want with his legs, and he doesn't get upset or try to kick me anymore. He is letting me rub my hands all over his face, neck, under his chest and belly, without getting tense and while looking relaxed. That is trust, and it takes a long time to develop with a horse that has been passed around to many owners and been handled by many people. 

But tonight I pulled up on his blanket to adjust it, and it rubbed him wrong. He snapped at me a couple times, and I gave him a slap and told him no. Yes, he still bites me sometimes. What I pay attention to is that he is growing tolerant of more and more things, and the protests are getting less and less. 

I guess a lot of people believe you need to frighten or hurt a horse badly enough that he will never do a behavior again. I notice Hero will spar with other geldings and not flinch when they hit him with their big teeth or take a bite. I don't think I'm going to impress him, and I believe I need to instead teach him that I am not an opponent, but someone so trusted I can be allowed to do anything to him. 

My small punishments like a slap are not physically intimidating to Hero. Yet he is diminishing his behaviors, because I believe he has a natural drive to get along, be peaceful, and have close and trusted friends. Today I led him on a walk in the dark, and it felt safe. He can barge or crowd into a handler's space, and again, this is slowly diminishing. We went up the super steep hill that he failed on and was badly upset about when I first learned about his locking stifles, and he went up and down three times without getting upset. 

I have to understand that my horse that came to me kicking, biting, barging, bucking and rearing had many reasons and was well practiced in all of these behaviors. The fact that they are diminishing over time because of all the interventions that are occurring, is success to me. It does not come down to simply one super severe punishment for each behavior and the horse is cured. I believe there are many complex horses out there with complicated problems, like Hero. 

I feel very fortunate to have experienced the things I have with all three of my crazy, dangerous horses that have never actually done anyone serious harm (except Amore, when she fell and gave my friend a concussion).

Yes, I fell off Hero a couple days ago, after getting him to go around the outdoor arena more successfully than I have before, getting him to pick up the canter in there, and riding out some bucking when he got insecure about the footing. Then, while I was resting on my laurels, he spotted movement on a far hillside and jumped out from under me. Sometimes proprioception is just not enough! 

Something I learned from having Amore is that a horse can seem completely unpredictable, but after you learn them very well, you later understand their motivations. A horse that explodes into bucking or bolts off "ignoring all cues" might have some type of uncontrolled fear reaction like Amore did. Deal with the fear, and the horse becomes far more predictable. A horse that bucks hard like Hero is not trying to get the rider off, but simply trying to get his stifles working the only way he knows how. If you don't know the horse's story, you have to make up one that seems to fit, until finally you can be fairly certain you have the right one that explains the horse's motivations.


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## Hondo

For me, this is the over the top best post I've ever read on HF. Period. And to repeat, for me.


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## Knave

Have you seen those TBH posts? Here is my first ever and probably last. Lol.

TBH: I do understand what you are saying completely. I just also have seen some actually dangerous horses. I am not saying all dangerous horses need put down of course, Bones has a neurological disorder and I was recommended putting him down. I did not. He has difficult moments that are literally impossible to come out of. I understand this, and yet I also see what a kind and good horse he is. I know what will set him off too, so I believe I am fine in putting my child on him and letting him even have that life under most circumstances. I know him inside and out. I don’t regret a day of working with him.

I have also learned from Keno. He is lucky he was given another chance. I thought about that, and realized that in my life I have ridden many horses that were naturally difficult, but I haven’t deal with horses that had been taught difficult behaviors. 

I myself have a tendency to be extremely hard on myself. I worry far too much about doing everything right, always worried to make any mistake. I look down on myself.

Now, I made myself keep going with Keno. I sat on my couch crying and forcing myself to put on my brave face and go back another day many times. I faced my fears and won several issues because I couldn’t face not succeeding with the horse. One day I sat on him and just sobbed, ugly crying for the longest time. How could I have pushed through, made myself stay in the game, fought my fears and faced such extreme problems, and still not come out the other side?

Imagine the beginning, with him trying to pull me out of the saddle the whole rides. When that didn’t work he bucked, which was fine, and when that didn’t work he threw himself on the ground a few times. Didn’t work? Well, he had another plan to try and run straight into things. We almost endoed the propane tank. I managed tricks to stop him many times. He always had a new edge, prepared for my last tactic. He was brilliant. 

The last ride was two hours of him trying to slam fences. I wasn’t brave enough to hit the fence. I decided to try to make him look at his decision, to which he put his head straight up to look at me. He couldn’t face his decisions either. I knew another ride and he would have me beat. It was hit the fence or take his legs out from under him, both of which I couldn’t bring myself to do. My whole body was sore, like I’d been in the battle I was in, and the next day I sat on the couch yet again. I cried and tried to force myself outside.

I finally said I won’t step on the horse again. I was going to put him down, because I didn’t want to kill someone, but I had owed the guy a look at him. I was so glad he took him. He said he’d hit the fence. He’s crazy, so I believed him.  I heard someone liked him and asked for him (you have to also imagine a friendly horse the rest of the time with a ton of talent.) He wouldn’t have gotten rid of him if he could use him. He couldn’t, so he gave him to the guy. The horse is as dangerous as he was.

Now, maybe you could have fixed him. I don’t know. That makes me a bit lost, like I need to think less of myself still. The thing is, I couldn’t do it. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we didn’t hit the fence the next ride it would have happened the one after. My friend couldn’t fix it either. I don’t think he let it bother him at all. He was excited to give it a go, and he let it go when it didn’t work. In that way he is much more intelligent than I am. He holds a confidence in himself, just simply knowing that he did what he could do and the horse was not fixable. 

I wish I was more like him in that. I wish I hadn’t eaten myself alive trying to do something that was beyond me. I wish I didn’t let it bother me that anyone might think it could be done. I wish it still didn’t bother me. The thing is, I gave my very all and it didn’t work. It is defeating.


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## egrogan

I think the issue might be that there are not enough “you” in the horse world to make that the case. I think there are a lot more “me’s”- approaching middle aged women who had a childhood dream of horses and can now afford one; but no amount of money can buy a lifetime of feel or innate skill in reading a horse. I think that’s why all those celebrity trainers proliferate- if you consider yourself a relative smart, motivated person who has taught yourself other things, why not horses. Or maybe you even have access to a solid riding instructor. That all works reasonably well when you have a more or less agreeable horse with a good foundation put on by a breeder or former owner. But when that DOESN’T happen, then what? I sure couldn’t and wouldn’t want to be faced with the issues that poster is having. But I don’t have a “you” in my life and wouldn’t really know how to find one who would take the horse. I would be intellectually interested in the “why” of what people had done to him but know I was way over my head (to be fair, I personally would NEVER buy an un-vetted auction horse I hadn’t tested ridden a few times because I know my limits!)

I know horses and dogs aren’t the same, but I’m facing a similar question with one of my dogs right now. He’s the most unpleasant, mentally unstable dog I’ve ever met. He hasn’t bitten us in the two years we’ve had him, but bit multiple fosters while they had him. He gets upset about unseeable things and can’t be soothed. He probably needs more exercise but won’t go running with my husband-he throws himself on the ground like dead weight and refuses to move. He can’t run loose because he not only chases cars, he runs into them headfirst with no sense of self preservation. He has been on Prozac since we’ve had him. Experienced “problem dog” trainers have told us they wouldn’t blame us if we put him down as he’s never going to get relief from whatever his demons are. Every day I think about how nice it would be to have a pleasant, happy dog and how ridiculous it is that our whole family (other dog included) have to suffer because we have him (he has no concept of how to interact with other dogs and our older girl avoids him). I’ve NEVER met an animal I didn’t like, but he’s the one. I don’t know if we can actually go through with putting him down, but I think about it all the time. I do know for sure I’ll never get another rescue dog after him. So I share that all just to explain that I can understand feeling so “done” with a situation that makes your life unhappy that considering getting rid of an animal seems like a realistic option, and when no one else would want or do any better with that animal than you, there truly aren’t other options.


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## bsms

"_Such as, "There are so many good horses out there, why waste your time on a bad one?" This goes along with the philosophy that horses are our hobby and why spend time working through big problems or putting yourself at risk when it's supposed to be fun._" - @gottatrot

There are riders (of all skill levels) and there are horsemen (of all skill levels). Since I've mentioned them in public before, let me use my family as an example. My DIL is a marginal rider and not a horseman in any sense of the word. She doesn't do much to bother a horse while riding and can generally stay on. But she doesn't have any interest beyond staying on a relaxed horse. She would sometimes feed our horses, but it wouldn't occur to her to check if they had water. She would toss a saddle on the back of a horse with big bite marks, never thinking what the saddle and riding would do to the injured back. She's a nice person. Good to go riding with. But she simply should not ever own a horse (nor would she really want to).

My wife is a poor rider with good potential as a horseman. She rarely rides and has gone so long without riding that she gets nervous on Trooper & Cowboy, who are two of the most responsible horses one could ask to meet. However, she pays attention to things like feed, how the horse moves, their feet. She is great with an injured horse. She's actually quite good at doing round penning with a horse. But she rides so rarely that a mild trot can make her nervous.

I would describe myself as an awkward rider, pretty good at staying one but too stiff to ever look fluid on a horse. I'm a decent horseman is some areas (working with a nervous horse), pretty hopeless in others (hoof care, special nutritional needs, bad behaviors I haven't experienced, etc). There are horse issues I wouldn't want to try dealing with - severe bucking, rearing, or the sort of viciousness that would make a horse want to kill a human. For horses like that, I simply would not want to buy them and learn. For those horses, I would say: "_There are so many good horses out there, why waste your time on a bad one?_" In that sense, "bad" is not a moral term. A horse who genuinely wants to hurt humans has had something go wrong. He is not a morally bad horse. But he would require a LOT of work, and there ARE a lot of really nice horses facing miserable lives with people who think horses and ATVs are interchangeable. Unless there was something special in the "bad horse", something that called to me - Mia - I would pass. A spooky Arabian mare might be just the thing for me, but a serious biter or bucker would not. Unless there was just something in them....

I think many potentially dangerous behaviors are not as dangerous as they look. I think too many people have been taught bad riding habits, habits meant to elicit good performance from well-mannered horses but inappropriate for helping a horse work past issues. I've seen a lot of people poo-poo someone's riding because "_There is more to riding than staying on_" - but with many challenging horses, just staying on IS a big part of curing the problem. At least staying on well enough to feel up to dealing with issues while riding outside the arena.

I also believe many overestimate the dangers of riding. It isn't risk free, but the Internet and our modern approach to life has blown it out of proportion. If you ride a bicycle down a road, a car COULD swerve and smash you into nothingness at any time. But that didn't mean we kids stopped riding bicycles! And our parents didn't go, "_A teen was killed riding his bicycle in Prescott yesterday! Bike riding is just too dangerous for you!_" They didn't even have bicycle helmets when I was young. Yet the vast majority of us survived. I don't know if instructors inflate the risks or if it is just the age of wimps meeting the Internet. I could be killed the next time I ride Bandit...but it really isn't very likely.

If you have been taught that the sanest of horses is a time bomb waiting to explode, are you going to take on a challenging horse who NEEDS to get out of the arena to learn?

I'll admit, though, there was something about Mia that made taking chances worth it to me. Had Trooper or Cowboy exhibited the same behavior, I'd have gotten rid of them. I would need some emotional connection to a horse before I'd say, "_Break out the Australian saddle...got a few years of tough riding ahead of us!_"


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## Knave

When I was in high school I thought I was pretty tough. Honestly I probably am pretty stout. I went along confident in that assumption, and then one day an older jock boy taught me that I wasn’t tougher than everyone else. A moment became about survival. 

He was around most of my high school. An ever present villain to keep watch for and occasionally catch me off guard. A reminder I wasn’t so tough and no one was there to save me. 

Maybe Keno was the same way. Maybe I am still as tough as most could imagine, but there is someone that betters me. Maybe I just have to accept that.
@egrogan I am so sorry about the dog. I’d like to think I would put him down, but I understand why you haven’t.


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## bsms

PS: We had a dog we put down for behavior issues. Got her as a puppy. Raised her like all the other dogs we've had. But she was mean. Aggressive. And would poop in the middle of a room after coming in from being outdoors for an hour. When our granddaughter was coming to stay with us for a year, we took the dog to the pound and had her killed. Wouldn't take the chance on her ripping our granddaughter's face off.

I've never regretted the decision. Not even a tiny bit. Brought home another puppy from the pound - a bundle of furry joy who was a delight to own. Now buried in our yard after a lifetime of friendship. Can't look at a picture of him without getting a bit teary-eyed. He never met a human he didn't like:








​


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## Knave

We did one too @bsms. His name was Ralph. He bit me and left scars all over my arms. My husband laughed about it at the time. He hated me. He would look me in the eye and pee on my bed. He was awful.

Ralph went along almost a year like that, and one day he got ahold of husband’s boss. There was a pipe in the back of the truck and he had to beat him off. I wanted to kill him, but husband still laughed. Then he went after a child. The dad got in front of him and stopped him. I said I would shoot him and meant it. The husband finally relented and had the dog killed.


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## bsms

^^ Hard to "like" your experience, @Knave! I saw a saying: "_I never lose. I win or I learn, but I never lose!_" Annie - the dog - taught me that we aren't always responsible for how an animal behaves. After all, if you can breed a Border Collie to do a long run past the sheep before beginning to work them, then why can't some issues of anger or a tendency to violence have a genetic component?

I used to think it was all upbringing or training. Even my own kids, however, have taught me I'm much "smaller" than I wish to believe. I just finished a biography of Robert E. Lee. It is a good biography: Robert E. Lee by Emory M Thomas. Anyways, at one point he quotes Lee as saying a general trains his army, equips them, tries to put them in a good position for a battle...but the battle is fought by the men, and the outcome depends largely on what they then do. I'm starting to think that applies to kids, horses and life.


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## Hondo

I'm pretty sure that we all know and agree that @gottatrot is not suggesting that there is no horse so damaged by previous owners or even perhaps brain damaged that cannot be made into manageable trail mounts by her or someone else.


But the attitude, values, and direction of the post is to me, something highly admirable and I ,for one, believe is very worthy of emulation.


If I were to single out one thing that I got out of the post, in addition to others, it is what I came to believe in the post regarding her personal use of the term "reprimand".


In the past I've been troubled by her use of that word as my only definition has been, PUNISHMENT. large or small, but still punishment.


Out of the post, and also past posts, I believe she uses it as a body language of "disapproval". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong out there!


In my limited experience, I think a horse can accept disapproval for what he is doing from both a human or another horse without getting fight or flight cortisol all fired up.


But not if he "FEELS" punished or attacked.


Roman has learned to say "OK" to a softly spoken no. But a no spoken harshly especially if I feel anger results in Roman acting if he has received a painful and revengeful physical strike.


And I'm suspecting it is the same with a horse. If they perceive frustration and/or anger within us, and they certainly will if it is present even when we try to conceal it, they will experience any kind of reprimand, soft or aggressive, as punishment and a threat with the associated increases in cortisol that prevents learning.


So those are my new thoughts about a variable definition of reprimand based on the variables present.


In line with all this, yesterday I purchased my first clicker at TSC. After some time associating it with (low s/s) treats, I want to try some target communication.


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## knightrider

I agree with both @gottatrot and @Knave. There is a saying, "Never a horse that couldn't be rode; never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed."

I have had both, as I am sure Knave has. Years ago, my brother borrowed my lifetime forever heart horse, fell off him, the horse got hit by a car and killed. I had raised this horse from a baby, trained him all myself, and he had turned out to be quite athletic and was winning big at horseshows. And then . . . gone. I couldn't get over his loss. I was devastated.

A neighbor suggested I take her horse. "All he needs is love," she said. It turned out the horse needed quite a lot more than love. He was probably like Knave's horse. I guess he needed psychotherapy. The more I worked with him and figured out what would "fix" him, the more he figured out ways to hurt me. He had been brutally savaged by humans . . . and after having him a couple of months, I was ready to savage him myself. I would outsmart him, and the next day he would outsmart me. Like Knave's horse, he was AWESOME to ride. He was amazing. He finally sent me to the hospital, and I gave him back. My heart and mind were in the wrong place for a horse like that. I needed healing desperately, and he wasn't able to heal me. Unfortunately, the people who owned him sold him to a 9 year old girl. They were NOT nice people (but I knew that when they gave him to me). And, by the way, they were NOT the people who savaged the horse. They were just ignorant and bought him because he was pretty and rode great.

On the other hand, both Isabeau and Acicate, horses that I have now, would have been sold or euthanized by just about anybody else who had them. I got them for next to nothing because they were dangerous and unrideable. If I had written about them in Horse Forum, I would have gotten numerous replies to sell them or euthanize them. I just wouldn't give up. And today, they are super horses to ride. Just wonderful. Isabeau in particular, went from rearing and coming over on the rider to packing the most timid of beginners. Interestingly (to me) enough, I think she did/does both from the same mindset. She wants to be in charge. When I stick a scared novice on her, she knows she's in charge. The big difference is she now wants to do what is right, so when she is in charge, she's a good lil' mare.

There are a lot of horses out there who could be great if someone would take the time to listen to them and work with them. And then there are some horses who just have a screw loose and will never be rideable (at least not by me, maybe by Alycia Burton or Clinton Anderson).


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## Knave

Exactly that @knightrider. Perfect explanation of what I was saying. There are both.

ETA: It is funny how that thread has stuck with so many of us. My husband and I were just discussing it yesterday. I told him I had been thinking that I didn’t have a lot of experience with “junk” horses. (I say that to signify only horses that have had a lot of mistakes made with them.) I was telling him that most of the horses we had growing up we raised. They were bred up talented things, so although they may have had a lot of heat to them, they didn’t have learned bad traits. I did work for a horse ranch and for a cutting horse trainer, but those horses were also far from “junk” horses. The horses I’ve started obviously were blank slates. 

Some mistakes are hard to come back from in any case. He said when he was little they bought truck loads of horses from the auction constantly. They put time on them, then they tried to turn a buck taking them back.


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## bsms

I think horses vary (as do humans) with how much pressure they can take without creating resistance. I'm convinced it is possible to punish a horse without creating resistance or fear or resentment (Bandit and Mia, if done right). OTOH, a horse like Trooper responds to almost any human pressure with tension. It is possible to provoke resistance without any intent to do so, and to punish a horse without causing resentment or tension.

"_What I failed to realize back then was that by ramping up the intensity of my leg pressure, for example, while I did get the result of him moving away from it, I had obtained the result I wanted with a substantially negative byproduct. Yes, he moved off my kicking leg, but the sharpness of my kicks had made him more nervous and anxious. Now I had to deal with a more reactive horse, which meant very often I would feel the need for stronger rein contact to control the nervousness that I had actually created. As I used stronger rein contact, the horse got even more nervous, and the downward training spiral had begun. What I was doing was forcing the move away response rather than teaching the move away response..._" 
- Denny Emerson​ 
"_A horseman who has great delicacy and tact, will stop the animal at the first time and pat him. But the less tact he has, the less capable is he of judging if the time is in cadence. Such a man will continue in his attempts to catch the cadence, and will succeed only in upsetting the nerves of his horse. These remarks explain the fact that *a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle*, which will wear them both out.

The unskillful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs._" 
- James Fillis, 1890​
The difficulty is finding that point. I could chuck a rock into Mia and have her come running to me moments later. I can yell at Bandit & wave a manure fork in his face, and a minute later he'll stroll up next to me. But Trooper jumped sideways yesterday when I viciously...dumped a bucket of pellets into his food bowl. And I've only fed him 3 times a day for 10 years! Trooper is obedient when I ride him, but never relaxed. I can literally punch Bandit in the side of his neck, yell - and 10 seconds later mount a calm & relaxed horse. Although he wasn't like that 3+ years ago. We worked on a lot of challenges together to build that bond.

Unpeeling the onion layers of a horse's mind is a lifelong challenge. And some horses and some people just won't make it (Trooper & I), and every once in a while the onion will have a rotted core. But I think @gottatrot is saying TRYING to unpeel that onion, and TRYING to work with a difficult horse instead of quitting at the first sign of trouble is what makes a horseman a horseman and not just a rider. Even a first time owner/rider can often slowly bumble his way into decent success if one tries. It often isn't as unbelievably difficult as many horse riders claim. Quitting at the first sight of trouble is sad. Refusing to ever quit is dangerous. Finding the area between is both difficult and rewarding.


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## Hondo

A therapist is not supposed to attempt to treat a relative or anyone that there is an emotional attachment to. Try as they might, loss of objectivity tends to creep in.


An upset therapist is no help to the patient.


Same with horses I think. If there is any frustration creeping in, the horse I believe will view it as a negative emotion and will likely not differentiate from anger and an impending attack.


So if a person cannot truly take an emotional position of detachment, it may be best not to approach the horse for any reason. Unless of course a positive emotion toward the horse is truly felt.


I'm thinking some of those horses need to be approached with a solid year of trust building from the ground and then make a decision about the horse at the end of the year.


Many horses can be punished without showing undue stress providing they have learned in the past that the punishment will intensify if protested. No human or horse willingly accepts a punishment that is threatening. Period. End of story.


I read recently or watched a video where it was shown that a horse that was worried would have an increasing respiration rate.


Just moments ago Hondo and I were returning from a hand walk with saddle and halter when Remmy started acting really scared as we approached. And of course Hondo said, "If he's scared, so am I!". As I was trying to sooth him I watched his abdomen near his hind legs. It was going in and out way way over 30-40 times per minute even though he was standing quietly.


This will become my go to determination of how nervous Hondo, or any horse, really is.


Turned out my coat was draped across Hondo and covering the saddle. Then I remembered the "Flysheet Fiasco" and pulled the coat off Hondo. Remmy said, "Oh, whew!", and settled right down. Mostly. They are calmly eating together as I type.


I could have just said, "That blasted Remmy! He's always getting worked up over nothing!".


Maybe @*gottatrot* 's post has had a positive effect on me already.


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## phantomhorse13

For me, it's risk vs reward I suppose. 



I love figuring out the why and how of behavior, but I don't want to be injured or die in the process. Any horse can injure you in a moment of reaction, but a horse (or dog, etc) that is choosing aggression takes things to a whole different level, imo. A level most people should not even think about approaching. If the horse in the other thread belonged to me, it would already be in the ground. I would not chose to put myself at risk figuring out _that_ behavior, forget finding a way to hopefully change it. Whether the horse has an organic issue or it has learned to act that way due to human handling, _for me_, it no longer matters. 


@egrogan I am very sorry about your dog.


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## Hondo

Yall gotta remember that gottatrot is a nurse that captures a brown recluse in the hospital in two paper cups and carries it out where it can live out it's natural life without harming humans.


And lets not forget setting up baby rats in their very own high rise apartment.


If the world ever needed that type thinking, it is seriously needed today!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Unpeeling the onion layers of a horse's mind is a lifelong challenge. And some horses and some people just won't make it (Trooper & I), and every once in a while the onion will have a rotted core. But I think @gottatrot is saying TRYING to unpeel that onion, and TRYING to work with a difficult horse instead of quitting at the first sign of trouble is what makes a horseman a horseman and not just a rider. Even a first time owner/rider can often slowly bumble his way into decent success if one tries. It often isn't as unbelievably difficult as many horse riders claim. Quitting at the first sight of trouble is sad. Refusing to ever quit is dangerous. Finding the area between is both difficult and rewarding.


So many excellent thoughts here from everyone. I want to be clear that my thoughts are not about passing judgment, but more about my own desire to want to learn more and understand more about horses, and be a better horseman. 
@Knave, I don't think you should feel like a failure giving up on a dangerous horse. As @bsms said, refusing to ever quit is dangerous. So is trying to work on a dangerous situation without the right approach or tools at hand. I think many times we need to step back and take another approach. It brings to mind the Buck movie, where people risked their lives trying to handle the dangerous stallion before ever trying to sedate and castrate him. Sometimes I believe when we look truly "big picture," we should attempt to do things that require some true professionals like vets before trying to work with a horse. 

With any dangerous horse I'd first try having a vet in to check the teeth, make sure the hooves were trimmed and balanced, and get the horse on a roughage diet with plenty of turnout. Until the horse is at a good baseline, happy in a herd with others and truly settled into the environment, he is going to be stressed. If the horse has a low level of tolerance for stress, we're going to put ourselves into more danger by trying to work with the horse.
@egrogan, we had a dangerous dog when I was a teen that we had to put down also. What makes me feel better nowadays is that I've read about "cocker rage" which is a genetic issue, and that seems to be what this dog had. It is definitely a neurological issue and not curable.
https://www.about-cocker-spaniels.com/rage-syndrome.html
As you might imagine (crazy rat/spider lady), I tried to get a couple of vets to remove the dog's teeth, which no one would agree to. I'm not sure why this was, since many old dogs end up without teeth, and can eat soft food. But the dog would have been harmless gumming at people. 

I have a scar on my hand from the dog. He would go from a very calm state to this uncontrolled growling and biting which wouldn't stop. He'd attack whatever was closest, a thing or person. Once he started biting it was almost like a seizure and he wouldn't focus his eyes and you couldn't stop it. He would grab hold with his teeth and then his jaw would just work back and forth until it was over. If you got him off, he'd lay there biting at nothing. 
He was half cocker, half golden retriever, a beautiful and nice dog the rest of the time.

What made me feel better was that we got him from a bad situation at age 5, had him 4 years and he had a very nice life until the behavior worsened as he aged. At first it only happened about once a year, then it started happening every month. We can't control everything that happens to our animals, and I also am reluctant to take on an animal that has known problems. It can be very difficult and even expensive. But when you end up with them, that is a different story...


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> As you might imagine (crazy rat/spider lady), I tried to get a couple of vets to remove the dog's teeth, which no one would agree to. I'm not sure why this was, since many old dogs end up without teeth, and can eat soft food. But the dog would have been harmless gumming at people.



Priceless!!


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## gottatrot

Still thinking about horses with issues and our approaches to them. 
I was thinking about "why" and about how I feel we often have the wrong approach with horses, because we begin with asking "how." Kids ask why all the time. As adults we seem to lose that and instead want to know how. 

The questions on the forum are often about "how do I stop my horse from doing..." or "how do I make my horse..." It seems to be the mainstay of most big name trainers, that they go straight for the "how" to make a horse do something. How to train. But isn't it more important to ask why? Why doesn't the horse want to? Why is he resisting? Why is he aggressive? Why is he scared?

We seem to start at the end point we want rather than starting at the beginning, which is the story of why the horse is behaving the way he is.
It's like with a small child; the question is not "how do I make him stop crying?" but "why is he crying?" Because if he is hungry, soiled, tired, etc., he is going to keep crying until the problem is fixed. 

When I started as a nurse, I wanted to know "how." How do I do the tasks, how do I treat the illness? As I moved to more acute situations, it became far more important to ask "why." 

A patient comes in, not breathing. How to get them breathing again is somewhat less important than why they are not breathing. They might have drowned, and have fluid in their lungs. They might have stopped breathing because their heart stopped, because their potassium is high because their kidneys have shut down and they skipped dialysis today. We can put a breathing tube in both people, but in the second case they will never be resuscitated if we don't correct the potassium level that is too high and stopped the heart. 

If we know why, we can know if something is going to be simple or difficult, and it can help us get creative in our approach to a problem.

Why do horses buck, bite, spook, kick, etc? There is no one answer. It's like asking why people get sad. 
How many reasons are there for a horse to buck? I've been on horses that bucked because they hit soft footing, because they landed wrong over a jump, because they were overly energetic, because their stifle locked, because their saddle pinched the withers, because their saddle slid back, because they were frightened, because of a bee sting. Some of those things are human error, some are just bad luck, some require more exposure with guidance, and some need medical treatment. 

The more experience I get with horses (and learn from others), the more options I learn about for why a horse might act a certain way. I've learned about horses that were fixed of terrible problems when the right "why" was found. One horse bolted into walls and fences, completely randomly. Obviously crazy, right? Then by chance, a vet doing the horse's dental exam found a crack in a tooth that had been missed. When they pulled the tooth, the bolting stopped completely. 

Obviously my Hero was returned to the rescue by three different people, who probably thought he was nuts since he "randomly" bucks. Except he has a physical problem and the bucking relates completely to whether his stifle is catching or not. I don't know what those people (at least one was a trainer) did to fix his bucking, but if they didn't ask why, they were never going to be able to change it.

It's not just our horses that we need to ask "why" about. Sometimes it can be about why the horse needs to be ridden at all, if he has a serious problem. Or why we have our heart set on having this horse do something he is not happy doing. It can be about why we feel we must keep the horse, if we don't have the ability, finances or desire to help him.

It's my belief that if we really want to help a horse, we have to try many approaches and work from different angles. When people say "Yes, the saddle fits," it reminds me of @knightrider who has a horse who doesn't like the saddles that seem to fit, and only likes the funny saddle. When people say "the teeth are good," I remember the horse that had the cracked tooth that got missed. When people say "it's not the bit," I think about the horses I've known who were fussy until finding the right bit. When people say "the hooves are good," I think about how many people can't see even the most obvious signs of hoof problems. I think about all the nutty horses that ended up having EPM or PSSM. I think about Halla taking a walk around the property with her teeth gnashing and sweat dripping from ears to hooves, how she bit me and took off bolting for a mile, out of her head insane when she had ulcers. 

Every day I wish horses could talk and just tell us what their problems are. My own philosophy is to start with the basic hierarchy of needs. Before anything else, physiological needs must be met, and then psychological - feeling secure and safe. If anything is missing from the basics, you can't expect a horse to improve with behavioral problems. Why don't we start there? Why don't we start with evaluating the feed, the herd environment, the routine, the horse's physical health? Why do we assume that every horse we see walking around does not have any physical issues and everything comes down to a strong will?


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## bsms

*^^^^^*​


Hondo said:


> For me, this is the over the top best post I've ever read on HF. Period. And to repeat, for me.


:iagree:​ 
OK, gottatrot, NOW you've nailed "the top best post I've ever read on HF" - for me. Riders ask "How?" Horsemen as "Why?"


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## Hondo

Just this morning a folder was created for the desktop labeled @gottatrot with both posts saved in notepad.


I'm going back a few pages each day in search of other past gems. I'll soon have a valuable book that I can publish for more money to spend on Hondo. JK on last sentence


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## bsms

Hmmm..."The Hondo Book on Horse Training", ghostwritten by gottatrot! Heck, I'd buy a few copies!


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## Dragoon

I've been saving her posts for a couple of years now! 

Her posts and way of viewing our interactions with horses has had a great influence on me. As a person who just started riding five years ago, this has helped me to reject some of the truly awful advice I've been given. I've been surrounded by "Hit the horse until it obeys" people. I'm glad I have ignored them. Showing them what I want and giving them the chance to co-operate has given me great results!


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## Hondo

Dragoon said:


> I've been saving her posts for a couple of years now!
> 
> Her posts and way of viewing our interactions with horses has had a great influence on me. As a person who just started riding five years ago, this has helped me to reject some of the truly awful advice I've been given. I've been surrounded by "Hit the horse until it obeys" people. I'm glad I have ignored them. Showing them what I want and giving them the chance to co-operate has given me great results!



Yes, five years it has been for me also. Agree with everything in your post 200%!


We may be making her blush but I know she appreciates it anyhow.


She rescues not only horses but horse owners from bad advice.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> We may be making her blush but I know she appreciates it anyhow.




Yes, you can call the book "Crazy thoughts from a demented horsewoman." 
Seriously, expressing my thoughts helps me learn so much, especially by getting criticism and feedback, and this community is very helpful and important. I've learned so much here from all of you. 

It's not that I'm happy about other people having problems, but when they share it really makes everyone think and stretch their world a bit. For example, you can do something very often like keep an energetic, upset horse from stomping over the top of you, but until you write out exactly how that happens, you may not think about what you're doing or why it works.


----------



## Hondo

Quote: Bacon said, “reading makes a full man, conversation a ready man, and writing an exact man.”




I'm sure if he were alive today he'd include women as well.


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## gottatrot

I've been daydreaming/wishing there was a way I could take on a problem horse from time to time, and help him with his issues before finding him the right home. Of course I know how the real world works, and what would really happen is that I'd try to find out what was bothering the horse, and get him working well, but then discover that the issue was something that made him unplaceable. So many times difficult horses either have a big physical problem, or else their baseline temperament is too much for the typical owner to handle.
Just like with my other horses, I'd only help one, because the horse would end up with me for good.

Nala is far too much horse for most people. Her owner adores her. Her owner is a combination of very competent rider plus extremely calm and unflappable personality. She laughs a lot when riding. We went out with Nala yesterday, and she was leaping and hopping throughout the ride. I saw her do a half rear/spin, and a leap with a kick back combo. I missed a lot of it though, since I had to focus a lot on Hero. Nala hadn't been exercised in a week, and 24/7 turnout with a hay diet is not enough for some horses to be calm.

Nala's rider brought three dogs along. I didn't mind; basically I'm to the point with Hero where I'm not relying on outside help but instead trying to deal with every situation between ourselves. With a tricky horse, that requires having a certain comfort level with the horse's usual reactions to excitement, fear, etc. 

Hero doesn't mind dogs, per se, and he didn't even mind when the big lab was wading in the ocean, but the border collie was rather disconcerting, because she kept running underneath the waves and then reappearing suddenly somewhere else with a big splash.

Since the tide was in, this happened quite close to us. My pep talk to Hero and myself was, "I don't care what she does. We're just going to keep moving forward." And so we did, for the most part, with some sideways hopping now and then. 

The sand was very deep and soft, as bad as the last time when Hero had a big meltdown and was unable to move forward, before his stifle injections and pain meds started helping him. Everything was not perfect, because most of our cantering was two or three strides of crowhopping, very rough to ride. But he kept moving forward, mostly trotting and to the point where I didn't feel bad for Nala's rider about the pace we were setting. 

We went out happily for about two miles, and I saw when looking behind that for the first time I couldn't see hard drag marks between the hoof prints in the sand, from Hero's hind hooves. Nala's rider told me that Hero had a happier expression than usual. 

Nala was still that "up" that she didn't want to trot with us but was doing crazy canter leaps instead, and her rider had to circle her fairly frequently. But I was impressed that Hero kept moving forward, was not stalling, and kept trying to see if he could canter properly, even in the deep and shifty stuff. I thought even if he was not getting into a good stride, the attempted takeoffs were surely good for strengthening.

Just after we got onto the beach, there was a moment when the dog came up from under the water just as we came up to a deep, dark line in the sand, drawn straight across our path. Hero looked at the dog, looked at the line, couldn't think fast enough and tried screeching to a halt at the last second, couldn't avoid the line and leaped sideways. That was a tricky movement, with the momentum changing drastically. I managed to stay on, although I had to find one stirrup that came off. 

Something that made me very happy was seeing Nala's rider's surprise when we came cantering up behind her in the field on the way to the beach. She's not used to seeing him canter very often. As soon as we were off the soft sand, heading home, Hero picked up a canter again on the firmer ground. 

My thought was that I could be happy riding Hero at this level, with him tolerating a few miles of work at a regular pace. It was a little rough for me to be stuck doing a ton of walking, and feeling like he had to be pushed to get moving or up to a trot.


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## gottatrot

Thinking about horse aggression, I found an interesting article on thehorse.com about why horses bite.
https://thehorse.com/112196/why-does-a-horse-bite/

I liked the list of reasons they gave:

Fear-induced, Pain-induced, Irritable, Dominance, Inter-male, Sex-related, Play, Protective, Maternal, Redirected, Learned, and Self-mutilation.

I'm not sure if "protective" means self-protective, or in protection of another horse. It probably works either way. 

When Hero has bitten or threatened to bite me, sometimes it has been from play (he used to have cuts all over from play fighting with another gelding we ended up separating him from - when I moved the two apart, at first he tried to use me as his play partner instead). 

He has also tried biting from pain-induced/irritable, when I first got him and girthed him up he apparently had ulcers because I treated him and that biting stopped. He was also irritable about being brushed in the early days, and would frequently try to nip.

The other type of biting he will try is re-directed, which is when he gets very upset/hot/nervous about something, and then will try biting the handler as a form of release. 

Something I've found with a horse that is showing aggression is that the horse can appear the same but be aggressive for different reasons (as mentioned above). That is where learning the horse can be so helpful in finding the best approach. If the underlying reason the horse is aggressive is fear or insecurity, then I've seen that the horse will not be aggressive if someone approaches with a loose posture, does not make hard eye contact, turns slightly angled toward the horse, and approaches in an indirect route. I've been around horses so insecure that you had to approach them backwards when you got close, so they didn't get defensive. 

However, if the horse is showing aggression because when you enter their field they are thinking of you as another horse competing for space, your best approach is to raise your chin, lift your chest, square up, raise your arms, and come in stomping and loud, with a crop in hand (with one horse I'd crack it so she saw that I had it). You don't want to give them the chance to think about if they're really bigger than you, but instead get that hesitation going. 

I was noticing yesterday that when Amore thinks I have a treat and comes eagerly trotting in, it could be difficult to distinguish that from a horse that is trotting in with aggression in mind. Both horses have raised head, ears pricked forward, but the horse that is thinking about aggression will arch the neck and elevate the gait to appear larger and stronger. It's not a mistake you want to make, because it can look so beautiful and cheerful when a horse is rushing in to attack you.




I made a scale for horse bites from 1-10. It seems important to think about how a behavior relates to how the horse is feeling. For example, 1-2 are warnings. The horse is telling you that he is thinking he should bite you, but maybe if you listen to him he won't.








3-4 are more serious warnings, but the horse is still thinking he doesn't need to respond drastically yet. 
5-7 are where the horse is getting to a level of emotion or energy where things are getting serious. In this range, you need to seriously avoid doing whatever is triggering the behavior. Up to this point, you're talking about bruises, breaking the skin, tears in clothing. Not broken bones or torn muscles. It might be dramatic, but the horse is still warning.
8-10 mean the horse is threatened to the level where he feels his life is in danger. This is high endorphins, no reasoning with the horse, serious risk of getting killed. These bites will break bones, cut through multiple layers of tissue, and this is how a horse kills a predator. At this level you did go to the hospital. 
Even a mini horse can be dangerous at this point.





People are so used to horses that have been handled well from birth, that they forget what is natural to a horse and what is unnatural. It is unnatural for horses to leave their herd with no concerns and take off alone. We think this is natural because we adapt horses to doing this. We think it is unnatural for horses to use their teeth and hooves to make their feelings known, when actually this is their default. It is the same with cats, dogs, or goats. If you don't handle them from an early age and teach them, they'll protest handling by biting, scratching, stomping. Try to trim a goat that is unused to being handled and you'll get bitten, stomped and head butted. 

When people end up with horses that are unhandled or handled poorly, the horse will behave like a natural horse. 
If you've been around horses straight off the range, many are extremely defensive and will bite or kick to kill. I remember when we had to cut a mustang's tail before she had been handled, because a piece of heavy wood had gotten tangled in it, and she was banging it against the walls and scaring herself.

The fact that she would have tried to kill us if we'd gotten in the wrong spot (we used long-handled loppers, and I kept her hind moving away from the person doing the lopping) did not mean there was anything wrong with her. She just had not been conditioned to handling yet. She didn't know if we were friends or foes. We might have been trying to cut off her tail, or cut her hamstrings to eat her.


----------



## Hondo

So! You've decided to see if you can outdo yourself! You made it! Good job!


I expect my book to have a very excellent rating.


Maybe I should commission Knave to do some representative artwork for it.


This could sit along side The Essential Hoof Book.


Let's see............The Essential Horse Book?


Go Gottatrot!


----------



## bsms

One of our dogs got a cactus spine in his eye Wednesday. That day was dedicated to driving him to the vet, who referred me to a specialist, who looked for about 2 minutes and then said he needed an operation because the spine broke off inside the eye, then driving back to pick him up and bring him home.

The next day, he felt well enough to go out to feed the horses with me. He always stays outside the corral. The horses don't like dogs. Mia did, but the three I have now dislike them at best. He was wearing his flashlight collar, that plastic thing they wrap around a dog's neck to prevent the dog from doing things like scratching the cut made in his eye. The horses all thought this made him much scarier looking.

But scary, as applied to dogs, doesn't translate to running away. Not for these three. Bandit, as the herd protector, left his food and tromped around for a little bit, any place in the corral closest to the dog, with a mincing step, curling neck, doing a bit of self-imposed rollkur.

"_Both horses have raised head, ears pricked forward, but the horse that is thinking about aggression will arch the neck and elevate the gait to appear larger and stronger. It's not a mistake you want to make, because it can look so beautiful and cheerful when a horse is rushing in to attack you._"

Seems like the context ought to warn one, but maybe a lot of folks are only used to seeing horses submit instead of seriously protest something. Maybe in a "barn" or "stable", surrounded by 30-100 other horses, a horse rarely feels the need, or assumes some other horse is the protector. Bandit does it often enough that it seems a normal behavior. Not towards humans, but towards something in the wash near the corral (10 feet deep, about that wide, a place where coyotes, javelina and probably some serious predators like bobcats pass thru) or towards anything that looks like a threat to 'his herd'.

By now, poor Sam has gone back to being "just a dog" instead of "space alien dog". Not worth worrying about, although I see no sign the geldings will ever accept dogs as friendly. Mia kind of liked dogs, but the three I've got now have all spent time on open range and view them as threats. Even after years living with dogs cheerfully ignoring them just on the other side of the corral panels.

I wish we had a good place to go ride with the dogs. The horses MIGHT come to accept them as scouts, who would move out in advance of the herd and clear a path for them. Or not. Don't know.


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## Knave

When I was a little girl, we had two broodmare in a corral. One was a mare I considered my own, and I climbed in to pet the colt. He was skittish and trotted around the mare. I followed him, and the blue mare (the other brood) reached around and picked me up by the neck. She shook me hard and threw me across the corral. 

I didn’t have it looked at until I was an adult, and the floating vertebrae left in her wake just touches my spinal cord causing regular migraines. It also has always popped if I move my head wrong and caused numbness. At the time though no one thought anything wrong except for the cut up skin on each side of my neck.

No one blamed the mare for the reaction. She wasn’t a particularly friendly horse, but they said she looked shocked herself. Dad figured she thought that other colt was trying to suck her, and she reached back after him and instead got me. I learned my lesson, and I was just probably a five-Year-old, so I didn’t get too terribly scolded myself. 

I haven’t been around many horses who would bite. I say this because all of my colts have tried to bite, been disciplined, and never tried it again towards a person. 

Cash now is acting pretty aggressive. He is for the most part fine with me. A big pet of a colt, but I was lucky to be in the corral when someone else walked through two different times. He pinned his ears and dropped his head snaking in behind them. I was able to step between them. My poor cousin was ready to sell out, and I knew he would have gone after her too. 

Husband said he did it to him, and he got after him which backed him off. I hope it does not become a problem with him. For now though I will catch him before the girls catch their own horses.


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## Knave

Yesterday I was talking to a friend about Cash’s bad attitude towards other people. I said something that I can’t remember, and she made a great point (she is a good horseman).

She said, “Don’t you think he’s like that because he was a prison horse?” I was kind of confused, and she explained her thought process to me.

“Say you are a horse in a prison. You aren’t only ridden by one guy probably. Maybe there are several different people who work with you. Prisoners did not grow up working horses; they are learning. Possibly one guy is pretty good. He likes you and is nice to you. Then there are other guys who don’t know what they are doing, and you hate working with them. 

Now he works with you. He likes you and you are kind to him. You understand each other and he looks forward to going. Of course he is leery of other people. It only makes sense.”


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## SueC

I've been in catch-up mode, @gottatrot, so late to this party, but just wanted to say how completely this post of yours chimes with me:



gottatrot said:


> Sometimes I find it difficult to align my thoughts about horses with others. For example, there are some common phrases and ideas that sound fine but they taste sour to me.
> 
> Such as, "There are so many good horses out there, why waste your time on a bad one?" This goes along with the philosophy that horses are our hobby and why spend time working through big problems or putting yourself at risk when it's supposed to be fun.
> 
> We can't all have the same philosophies, or see life the same way. My perspective (curse?) is that after meeting a horse, or hearing about a horse, I am drawn to thinking about what happens next. What happens when you send him away? What happens when you give up?
> 
> Along with this I wonder why. Why is he like this? How can I understand his motivations? What can I learn from him?
> 
> Not everyone wants to be challenged, to learn and excel. To me, horses are a big mystery, an endless challenge. They do come with risk, but in learning how to mitigate those risks I've found that sometimes (usually?) perceived risk is far higher than actual risk.
> 
> Sadly, Amore, Halla and Hero would all have been labeled as neurologically impaired, crazy and many on this forum would have been recommended that they be put down if they had not ended up with an experienced and also determined (and risk taking) owner. Wonder, that gorgeous, amazing athlete would be considered dangerous and aggressive.
> 
> I do not believe that my way is THE way, or that others should work with challenging horses. However, I do feel there are many truly wonderful horses that are never given a chance.


Yeah, you don't think your way is THE way, but have you noticed how the far more limited methods of the kind of mainstream horse training you are describing are often fiercely defended as THE way? One-size-fits-all "solutions" aren't really solutions, no matter which field of human endeavour you look at; and I think everyone in this little journal group understands that. These "solutions" just appeal to the people who like black-and-white thinking / simplistic thinking, and/or to whom the idea of a quick fix is more appealing that really looking at a situation in depth and working out a tailored approach that's constantly open to review and revision, depending on the "data" coming in. A lot of current human endeavour is bungled up in a fundamental way because it's not dealing with the real complexity of life, living beings, the biosphere etc - and because it's egotistically driven - "I want!" instead of what's fair and lovely and seriously considers the good of others (like a horse). It's a bit like insisting on square pegs for round holes, and making two-dimensional representations of three-dimensional things.

Rigid (and often bungling) approaches favour the ISA Brown chicken-isation of the animals people are working with. Attempts to breed idiot-proof animals (i.e. animals kept in the inappropriate conditions of industrial farming, and/or subjected to unsympathetic and ignorant treatment by handlers) results in animals who themselves have a genetic reduction in intelligence, survival behaviour, initiative etc, and who just mutely put up with things their ancestors wouldn't have. I do see this trend in various domestic horse breeds, and it's one reason I generally prefer horse breeds where physical performance - running fast, ability to do marathons etc - is paramount in breeding: Endurance Arabians, Standardbreds, Thoroughbreds, horses like that - mustangs appeal to me, not that we have any here - they just tend to have more personality, more intelligence, more intrinsic complexity and depth, and often far more potential than the more mentally interfered-with breeds and strains. I also prefer working line dogs to lapdog types with infantilised traits that appeal to certain humans, for similar reasons. And I like cats, because cats are very independent and have a strong BS filter.

The converse approach to idiot-proofing animals would be to tackle human idiocy, rather than indulge it - then there would be a reduction in the number of idiots / the amount of idiotic behaviour other people and animals have to put up with. We could start with not expecting _anyone_ to put up with it, and organising compulsory remedial training for people displaying idiotic behaviour - not to mention that we should not be protecting people from the natural consequences of their own idiotic behaviour in the first place. If you frighten a horse and get kicked, that's both Darwinism and poetic justice - and you shouldn't be able to sue anyone because that happened to you, or make the horse wear the consequences of your stupid behaviour... people ought to get the message, "Don't meddle with things you've not made any efforts to understand!" instead of thinking they can go out and ignorantly do anything, and if it doesn't work out, there will be hell to pay for others.
































> I feel no need to physically harm my horse, or to feel physically threatened by him. We are slowly progressing toward a deeply trusting relationship, but Hero still doesn't agree with some things, yet I know he will come around in time. I believe I understand the "why." He is big, powerful, and developed a habit of reacting in a way that left no doubt about his opinions. All I need to do is change his opinions.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

:bowwdown:




> I guess a lot of people believe you need to frighten or hurt a horse badly enough that he will never do a behavior again. I notice Hero will spar with other geldings and not flinch when they hit him with their big teeth or take a bite. I don't think I'm going to impress him, and I believe I need to instead teach him that I am not an opponent, but someone so trusted I can be allowed to do anything to him.


Completely agree again.

And just thinking - the way people treat other people also translates to how they treat animals. A person who bullies other humans will generally also bully animals, and think this is acceptable. They may even call it "best practice!"




> My small punishments like a slap are not physically intimidating to Hero. Yet he is diminishing his behaviors, because I believe he has a natural drive to get along, be peaceful, and have close and trusted friends.


And more so, because you are encouraging his positive behaviours! 

Cooperation for mutual benefit is the social glue of social mammals. Good communication is a vital element in this.




> I have to understand that my horse that came to me kicking, biting, barging, bucking and rearing had many reasons and was well practiced in all of these behaviors. The fact that they are diminishing over time because of all the interventions that are occurring, is success to me. It does not come down to simply one super severe punishment for each behavior and the horse is cured. I believe there are many complex horses out there with complicated problems, like Hero.


And complexity is so interesting! And gives you so much to work with, and is a big difference between a horse and a motorbike! ;-)




> I feel very fortunate to have experienced the things I have with all three of my crazy, dangerous horses that have never actually done anyone serious harm...


If we're not challenged, we don't learn to potential...




> Something I learned from having Amore is that a horse can seem completely unpredictable, but after you learn them very well, you later understand their motivations. A horse that explodes into bucking or bolts off "ignoring all cues" might have some type of uncontrolled fear reaction like Amore did. Deal with the fear, and the horse becomes far more predictable. A horse that bucks hard like Hero is not trying to get the rider off, but simply trying to get his stifles working the only way he knows how. If you don't know the horse's story, you have to make up one that seems to fit, until finally you can be fairly certain you have the right one that explains the horse's motivations.


I like that. Story is important in so many ways!

Thanks for yet another wonderful thinking-out-loud post.


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## SueC

Oh and...



> Sadly, Amore, Halla and Hero would all have been labeled as neurologically impaired, crazy and many on this forum would have been recommended that they be put down if they had not ended up with an experienced and also determined (and risk taking) owner. Wonder, that gorgeous, amazing athlete would be considered dangerous and aggressive.


Here's an idea: Neurological impairment in humans is the basis of most so-called, as well as actual, neurological impairment in domesticated horses.

Some neurologically impaired persons like to project their own affliction on those around them, human or horse or etc. "Look over there, everyone! Don't look at me!"

And in the words of a good friend of mine: The people that really need the psychologist don't go; their behaviour just makes life difficult for other people, who then have to go see a psychologist to cope.

Horses don't have that option once they've been driven out of their wits by someone who needed to sort out their own attitudes first. The best possible outcome for horses like that is that someone like @gottatrot gets interested in them, and adopts them. Funny how much less crazy such horses are a year later... 

:cowboy:


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## Knave

This is true @SueC, but it is also true that there are true neurological impairments in horses. I am not a self-mutilator nor am I schizophrenic. I can see why that is the medication they have finally found to help with the behavior. To watch Bones and his imaginary friends is really astounding. I’d never seen anything of the sort, and I wouldn’t have been able to make it up. 

I guess you have seen it though right? You know that they disappear in those moments. Up close the look on Bones’s face is really enlightening to his predicament.


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## SueC

Yeah, I agree that innate neurological impairments do exist in horses too, which is why I said, _" Neurological impairment in humans is the basis of most so-called, as well as actual, neurological impairment in domesticated horses."_ ;-) Most, not all - but I do think most! I think the main ways humans inflict neurological impairments on horses is 1) by keeping them in unnatural environments that don't allow them to learn and explore and socially interact and self-exercise properly, 2) by inflicting their own unsorted emotional baggage and personality problems / bad attitudes upon them, and 3) (more minor issue) via nutritional deficiencies in their captive diets.

I wonder if Bones would have self-mutilated had he grown up as a mustang. I strongly suspect he wouldn't. That kind of behaviour is usually re-directed, ritualistic behaviour that starts when animals are socially and experientially deprived, or otherwise intensely frustrated, in captivity / domestication. I knew a racehorse that started to self-mutilate (spinning in circles, biting his own flanks bloody until sweating and heaving) after retirement AKA experiential and social deprivation, in his case: Retired to a sand yard with double electric lines between him and all other horses - and he a stallion. Stallions have very strong innate drives and are more prone to self-harming than geldings are.

The other horse I knew who self-harmed was also a stallion, and kept similarly, but from the time he was a yearling. He never raced or got ridden at all, and like the other horse described above, he never got to spend time in the same enclosure as another horse, nor did he get to graze. He would shock himself on the electric fence on purpose: Dangle his lip over the hot wire, drop his lip, jump back, return to the fence, repeat.

In the case of these horses, their life circumstances promote self-harm - similarly to why some humans self-harm. Once these habits are established, they can become difficult to break completely, especially as a coping mechanism when distressed or bored - but your horse's self-harming has decreased since you've worked with him, hasn't it? Do you see a reduction in the behaviour when he's got more work, and more fun interactions with other horses, and more general stimulation?

And an explanatory PS: I don't mean that a human self-harms and therefore their horse starts self-harming. I was using the idea of neurological impairment in humans as a tongue-in-cheek synonym for a reasonably common lack of thought and/or care about keeping them in a species-appropriate way, and treating them with decency. ;-) I think your horse's behaviour was likely established before you even got him on your place - what do you think?


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## Knave

I agree that it wouldn’t have started had he been managed differently in his youth. Lol. Kept for a stud in a little pen... you know how it goes. When I bought him I completely changed his environment and routine. 

He still self-mutilates, but it is not as terrible. It used to be if he had a day off he went back to it, but in his time off with his stifle injury he got much better even. Pete will not tolerate his behavior, and has always been a big help for managing it. 

If it weren’t for the other horses reactions to him, I’m not sure I could have done as well with just my own practices.


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## SueC

Yeah, but you recognise that horses need other horses to be properly socialised, and are letting that happen, which is a part of _your own practices_! :hug:

So you _do_ get a gold star! ;-)


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## SueC

Just a general catch-up comment to everyone, now that I'm reading the posts subsequent to the one from @gottatrot I quoted earlier:

Wow!  Amazing posts, from everyone! It's lunchtime and I'm still reading, good thing I'm on half-holidays... just finishing p261. @Knave, the Keno example, I'd be giving up too if I was put in that kind of physical danger and couldn't find a way around that - and not sure I would have put myself through as much as you did there, not at my age ;-) (ha, now I can play that card! ). I think @bsms's and your dog examples were really pertinent to the discussion - and in the same circumstances I'd have done the same thing. I think there has to be something that clicks between an animal and a person, like with Mia and @bsms, and with Isabeau and @knightrider, and @gottatrot and her horses - for most of us to want to put in that kind of effort. Something we can relate to, some door that is open, or at least unlocked. Or at the very least, a strong gut-level sense that the door _can_ be unlocked.
@bsms, great quotes. Loved this:



bsms said:


> Unpeeling the onion layers of a horse's mind is a lifelong challenge. And some horses and some people just won't make it (Trooper & I), and every once in a while the onion will have a rotted core. But I think @gottatrot is saying TRYING to unpeel that onion, and TRYING to work with a difficult horse instead of quitting at the first sign of trouble is what makes a horseman a horseman and not just a rider. Even a first time owner/rider can often slowly bumble his way into decent success if one tries. It often isn't as unbelievably difficult as many horse riders claim. Quitting at the first sight of trouble is sad. Refusing to ever quit is dangerous. Finding the area between is both difficult and rewarding.


 @gottatrot, the why as the key question, not how: :loveshower: That whole post, just wow.
@Hondo's signature: Newest version has lots of alliteration. Excellent!  And that quote from Bacon: 

And @Hondo's comments on discouraging in training, rather than attacking/punishing: Below is the wording in which I learnt that. And thanks everyone, for riveting reading. I missed all the Australian Open tennis so far today! mg: But have finally caught up. Now I've got to pick up some horse manure...



*TRAINING PROCEDURES:*

“_That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”_
“_Quiet persistence”_
“_End-of-Lesson”, what it means_
“_Old Hat”_
_Use of voice in training_


Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

_Question_: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!

_The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing._

And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, _you_ would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. _These are not trick questions._ If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can _avoid_ any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

_Reward and punishment _is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new. Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

_Encourage and discourage_ is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it _can_ include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:


“_*That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*_


These terms mean exactly – _exactly_ – what they say.

“_To Profit”_ is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“_To Profit Not”_ means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.

_It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that._



_*Quiet Persistence*_

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.

_We persist. We quietly persist with our demands._

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse _without punishing him_.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.

_*End of Lesson*_

_End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements._

What End of Lesson means:
When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day _at the moment_ the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

_At the very instant_ of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.


_*The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.*_


We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

_End-of-Lesson_ is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.


“_*Old Hat”*_

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

_This is a characteristic of the horse._ Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn _*to repeat lessons rather than to prolong*_ them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.


_*Use of the Voice in Teaching *_*(excerpt)*

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's _right_, _clever_ boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you _do_ want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.

_The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly._

Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what _did_ please you.

If your use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last. Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”


*A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD*

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

...Tom Roberts, _The Young Horse_ book from his horse training series.


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> Some neurologically impaired persons like to project their own affliction on those around them



Projection is an interesting psychological action. One thing I recall is that people who complain about some particular fault in other quite often, if not always, have that same fault in themselves with the projection being sort of a way of saying, "they have this or that fault, but not me".


All done on a subconscious level of course.


When looking at someone else that I consider having a fault, this causes me to wonder about myself at times.


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## SueC

Now if only the narcissists would join us in this second-guessing, @Hondo, but they do not! 

Those are Jungian ideas about the psychological shadow - and interestingly, the less you bring that up to your conscious mind, the denser and darker the thing apparently is. They're interesting ideas, and to me present another angle on hypocrisy and on scapegoating, both of which are so common.

Once upon a time, I saw "the self" divided up into four aspects in a diagram - one of those was "the hidden self" and I wondered, "What's there, in me?" That was over ten years back, and since then I've actually discovered some aspects of that, that used to be hidden to me but decided to present themselves to my consciousness.  Of course, I expect there's loads more stuff in there not yet unearthed. It's archaeology and forensics both, to try to scrape away at that stuff. Isn't it fun being human! ;-) I expect amoebae live far more peaceful, less existentially conflicted lives. :Angel:


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## bsms

I think my objections to many clinicians and experts is rooted in a deeper problem than their just saying they have the ONE WAY. I believe many of their practices are based on needing to flip a horse in weeks, or getting surface behavior corrected in an hour or a day. I believe Parelli and Anderson both started their reputation by working hundreds of colts for sale.

The techniques that work fast are often counterproductive for long term development. "Ask, tell, DEMAND!" works well with a lot of horses - if all you want it surface submission, and if you don't meet horses with a more independent mind. It may also be required for showing since the horse has a hard time understanding why it ought to canter the moment it reaches the E sign, or is doing repetitive patterns to no equine purpose.

While it may be a good approach to get a response from a horse you will ride one time, or that you ride in meaningless (from a horse's perspective) events, that is a bad way to get a horse you own and ride regularly to work with you as a team mate.

But in the horse world, who is idolized? The crazy lady who tries to rescue poisonous spiders? Or someone who has won medals in western pleasure, or dressage, or reining, or who has turned out 300-500 colts a year for the last 5 years? And if someone takes their horse to a trainer, what is one of the first things they ask? As someone who has done it..."_How long?_" Reasonable enough, since you are charged by how long the horse is there. So "good trainers" will be fast trainers, and good trainers may never think to say, "_Let's talk about some options, then you work with the horse at home and see which one works._"

The majority of people posting on gottatrot's journal are people who own a horse long term. Stubborn people, who won't dump a horse on someone else if issues come up. People who want a horse to work with them, not for them. But the people who give clinics, who judge horses, who train horses, they are people who need to get results and who judge obedience, not why the horse is obeying!

I found it amazing when reading Denny Emerson's book that after 7 decades of riding at the world level, he is drawing conclusions that gottatrot, SueC, Hondo and others were drawing within years. Hondo and I have disagreed a number of times. He's often been right, or at least I've often ended up where he was at the start. Eventually. But after 7 years as a horse owner, when I swapped Mia for Bandit, I was already concluding things Denny Emerson is suggesting after 70 years. Reading it after 10 years of owning horses, I found myself saying, "_Yes! You're right! Mia taught me that 5 years ago! Bandit taught me that 2 years ago! Finally, someone agrees with my horses!_"

But what does that say about competition and how we determine expertise? Other than Tom Roberts, I haven't found these ideas discussed in books. Yet Hondo and gottatrot and SueC and others are discussing, daily, what Denny Emerson writes about after 70 years. Honestly? I spent part of my time reading it thinking, "_*What took you so long?*_"


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## Hondo

I would feel and be remiss if I did not quickly point out that where I was at 72 when first encountering Hondo is not where I was at 22.


I suspect that is true for the large majority. Sometimes I even ask myself why certain things have taken me so long.


May be like the classic speech on the way back home is always better than the speech just presented.


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## Knave

I think every one of us should be able to look back and say, “Why did I not know that then?” The clinicians the same as us... 

I want to see the kind of growth in myself I hope I see in my horses. We do not expect a 3-year-old colt to have it all figured out perfectly, and some are a lot closer than others. We expect them to grow and change with the seasons of their lives.

How do we forget the same is true for us? I remember riding in the truck with my dad one day. I was riding General at the time, and he was performing really well and I had learned so much I had never known working with him. I said to my dad, “I wish I could have known what I know now with Runt. She really could have been something spectacular.” 

Dad looked at me funny, “Do you think you would have had any of the fun with her you did if you knew differently?” Runt was spectacular in her own right, and she won a ton of things and I rode her for all of my work. 

Riding Runt I was where I was, and then General, and now a couple horses more and I am now at Cash in a different season. What’s more is that I think the horses I had in the seasons I had them were perfect for each. 

I don’t think we should look back so negatively at ourselves, or even at others where they were or even are. We are all learning and all growing.


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## Hondo

Sage and Sober


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I found it amazing when reading Denny Emerson's book that after 7 decades of riding at the world level, he is drawing conclusions that gottatrot, SueC, Hondo and others were drawing within years. Hondo and I have disagreed a number of times. He's often been right, or at least I've often ended up where he was at the start. Eventually. But after 7 years as a horse owner, when I swapped Mia for Bandit, I was already concluding things Denny Emerson is suggesting after 70 years. Reading it after 10 years of owning horses, I found myself saying, "_Yes! You're right! Mia taught me that 5 years ago! Bandit taught me that 2 years ago! Finally, someone agrees with my horses!_"
> 
> But what does that say about competition and how we determine expertise? Other than Tom Roberts, I haven't found these ideas discussed in books. Yet Hondo and gottatrot and SueC and others are discussing, daily, what Denny Emerson writes about after 70 years. Honestly? I spent part of my time reading it thinking, "_*What took you so long?*_"


Reading that sort of thing makes me wonder why I ended up being the sort of person/horseperson I am, and not one of those motorbike approach people I am completely at odds with. And it's complex to figure that out, but here's some things that explain why I approach horses the way I do:



Number one, from very little I've always loved animals and had this affinity for them and found them frequently nicer than human beings (in part because of the kind of family I grew up in - that sort of thing makes you hang with the available animals)


...and if animals are your friends, why would you treat them with disdain? I guess I never made a distinction between how I should act with human friends and with companion animals - never saw humans as more special.


My human friends in primary school were much the same about companion animals: Potty. So I wasn't going to get any sort of negative peer group pressure as regards treatment of animals.


My primary teacher in Year 1/2 modelled respect for humans and other creatures - showed us lots of animal documentaries (on a film reel, and ran it backwards for fun sometimes, so we'd see knights falling _onto_ their horses and gallopping backwards in historical reenactments etc :rofl - and there was even a magazine we could subscribe to for our primary age group called _Tierfreund_ (Animal Friend), and most of our class did, and we were very excited reading them. This was a very European young people's magazine, i.e. not dumbed down for kids, but making kids reach higher - I still have stacks and stacks of them from childhood. The magazine was full of interesting information on animals, as well as plants and ecology, and explained the ecological threats to wildlife and what we could do to make a difference. It didn't pretty up the fact that humans on the whole are a destructive, thoughtless lot - I remember the photos of deforestation, of little furry mammals with tin cans stuck on their faces from discarded rubbish, with terrible injuries - fishing hooks in dolphins, fishing line around the legs of seagulls cutting off circulation, etc. It showed us that it's not respectful and species-appropriate to have a lapdog you wheel around in a pram with a bow in its hair, because a dog has to run and play and interact, not be a fashion accessory etc. It educated us about the realities of predator-prey relationships in the wild, and the fitness of the herd, and the survival of the species. Also it looked at traditional versus industrial food animal rearing, and said to us, "You can choose whether or not you care about this." And my friends and I chose to care, and to do things about it...


We also hung out at dairy farms, circuses etc after school just to be around large animals and learn about their care, and got really hands-on - it was great!


When some of us went to the local rural riding school, we were those typical besotted little girls in love with everything equine. The riding school was much the same, and if we did something thoughtless, they'd tell us, "This isn't a bicycle, it's a horse!"


Many of us kids, riders or not, were reading Lisbeth Pahnke's _Britta_ series, the Swedish horsewoman's quasi-autobiographical novels about a girl like us who had a thing for horses, went to riding school, got a Welsh pony, helped educate it to saddle, learnt more about riding and horse care with her friends and competed, and later became a riding instructor for children, but competition was always secondary to Britta's love of horses, and people to whom that was the most important thing were portrayed with a frown, as were the consequences of their choices on their horses. In Europe in the 70s and 80s, this was a Harry Potter type thing - nearly everybody and their dog had read it. It didn't get translated into English unfortunately. I had a chat to the author on email about her books, and she said the reason she wrote them is because there wasn't anything like it and it just needed to be there. A lot of children's novels about horses are very saccharine and silly, and have nothing to teach the reader.


The French mare who was my first horse taught me a truckload, not just about horses, but about life. I guess like everyone here, I primarily expect to learn from horses, and to learn with horses. I don't have the primary aim of making horses do things. I want to do things together with horses.


So by the time I picked up Tom Roberts' training books when I had an Arabian yearling to DIY saddle educate as a teenager, there wasn't anything revolutionary about the way he saw horses, it was all consistent and logical and gelled with prior experience and thinking for me. But, he was _incredibly_ experienced at what I was just setting out to do for the first time, and had so many wonderful ideas and suggestions for training step by step, and overcoming impasses. He'd been there, done that with every situation I encountered subsequently in my equestrian life. And his fundamental attitude both to horses and to learning was excellent.


By the way, the German equitation books I've got from childhood all make reference to treating horses with respect and dignity - they don't have the "motorbike" approach either. I first came across that approach when reading a UK book called "Your First Pony" which advocated a lot of hitting and yanking your horse about. That shocked me, and I composted the book. Other UK books were fine. I think there almost certainly are German motorbike approach equitation books too, I just didn't read any as a kid, or come across them. Not that I looked that hard. Within our little group, we were just reading each other's books, which would have filtered them.


So coming to Australia, I first saw lots of people yanking their horses about and trying to dominate them and was like this: mg: They weren't all like that in Australia, of course - and we'd seen some people like that in Germany, and these we called the "cowboys" - because they rode, and yanked horses about, like the cowboys in the appalling cowboys-and-Indians movies at the time. (The Indians always seemed to ride better, so we all decided we were Indians.) These were the crazy outliers in our little bubble, though. And in Australia, where I landed in the 1980s, it was the other way around.
And by the way, I've learnt from HF that many actual cowboys/girl people these days aren't like the actors in those C-grade movies. I like @*bsms* 's cowboy acquaintances, @*Knave* 's family, @*Cordillera Cowboy* 's outlook, etc etc - all of these I would class as fine horsepeople. Maybe the competition arena is where the bad stuff gets concentrated a lot these days - more likely to be egotistically motivated, psychologically immature etc - when the whole idea of winning is so much more important to people than harmony and cooperation. Not that every competitor is like that, of course - there's also some fine horsepeople there...


Looking back at those bullet points, I think I simply had too many good people and good horses around me to become anything other than what I became. I know we have choices, but it's just anathema to me for some reason, to treat animals with disrespect and not be ashamed...


And _y'all_? What's your potted history that explains where you arrived?


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## Knave

@SueC I had never been taught any differently about horses actually. My father is an excellent horseman, and had he seen my ever behaving as if a horse were a tool he would not have had much empathy for me. I don’t remember specifically when he told me about people who thought of horses as tools, but I do remember talking to him several times about his dislike of that mentality.

With horses he was very soft and kind. Disciplined of course, but never mean. He made some very talented horses and had me on good horses from as long as I could remember.

My grandpa is another excellent horseman, and so it makes sense that one of my uncles and my father have so much talent. I sat at his feet listening to stories of horses every chance I had. His stories always taught me something, and the horses he talked about in the same manner with which he rode them. He knew them inside and out. 

I worked with my father and grandfather all of my childhood and most of my adult life. My grandpa has been off of horses for over a year now, but he still manages most days to go down to the shop and give his mare her senior feed. I still sit at his feet and listen every chance I get. 

I also rode great horses.


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## SueC

this post, @Knave. Wonderful...


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## Knave

When my grandfather was a child he made a pet out of this filly. He spent all of his extra time with her and she followed him anywhere. One day he asked her to climb a haystack. (At the time haystacks were loose.)

She followed him up, but they eventually slipped and she slid underneath a piece of equipment. He was in trouble of course, but because she was so gentle she was calm until he got help and they got her out of her predicament. She came out of it no worse for wear except maybe a couple scratches.

She grew up to be a work horse. She was always gentle and smart, and she was good at her job. One day, out in pasture, she hooked the skin of her nose on a buck rake. Grandpa laughs telling the story. If she only would have moved she wouldn’t have gotten more than a little tiny cut. She waited though, ever so patiently with her head down, until he found her and unhooked the skin she was afraid to break.


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## SueC

This is marvellous stuff, @Knave! Isn't it interesting how we all have these overt differences in our backgrounds, but have come to adopt similar philosophies and approaches? They say there are many paths to the mountaintop... not that I imagine I'm at "the apex", but I think we've all pretty much come to the same lookout on our climbs up, and are pleased with the amazing view.

Where's @gottatrot? It's not like her to be away for long, and here I am writing all over her wallpaper... and am still thinking out loud in response to all this.

I'm thinking about psychological reasons now, for favouring certain philosophies and approaches. Maybe I'm putting that too gently - because we can be very driven emotionally towards these intellectual positions as well. I've kind of learnt that the emotional side of us, and the instinctive side, are far more at work than our intellectual side would sometimes like to admit! They sort of operate under cover and can be quite hidden, and you might have to do a lot of excavating to realise some of the things going on underneath your thoughts.

As a young person - teenager, early 20s - I was temporarily under the delusion that I was living my life according to reasoning, and the dictates of my conscience. :rofl: And then I started doing some things that really conflicted with both, and found that astonishing, and really disturbing. Why can't I just live the way I'd like, act the way I'd like, behave the way I'd like, all the time, and especially all the time when it's really crucial? And then you learn about being human, but specifically also about a lot of conditioning and unseen programming that becomes autopilot under certain circumstances, and you realise that your baggage competes with your conscience and your reasoning.

And sometimes, it's not even the baggage, it's just expediency, the easy way out of something. Sometimes, even the most perfectionistic person with high expectations of their own behaviour can just be an ***. How do I know? Well, you can all guess. Because I too have been an ***. I'm not a careless ***, or a dedicated ***, so I have been a bit less afflicted by assness than some people are. But yeah, much as I've tried to avoid it, sometimes it's happened, and it's really humbling, and drives you to try to understand things better. And makes you appreciate the possibilities of heartfelt apologies, and to making reparation where you can. Mistakes are one thing. Pretending to yourself and the world that you don't make any is another. Taking responsibility for ourselves is so important.

One important thing that I've come to realise is that the big underlying fight for us can be very much a fight for the little girl or boy we once were ourselves; an adult fight for the children we were, and the unjust things that happened to those children. When we see others - human or animal - in painful situations we've been in ourselves when we were little and quite defenceless, we become Mama Bear on behalf of those individuals - and at the same time to the child we were once, in a sort of vicarious reparenting of ourselves, hand-in-hand with taking action on behalf of others. And I think this is more than mere projection, I think this is something quite fundamental for a lot of people who had traumatic childhoods. Of course, people can go the other way, and take their revenge on the rest of the world and not care who they walk on hereafter - they can re-victimise others around them, sort of, "And now it's my turn!", and a lot of people do that too, and don't wake up to it. And what decides which way people go is still a big puzzle to me - but the people who end up doing the latter aren't very pleasant people, obviously, and not the kind of people I want to hang out with. I don't respect that dark choice, but of course, it's not always clear how much of that component is wilful choice, in each case. On the other hand, I also don't believe that there is anyone who has no choice whatsover in what sort of person they end up becoming. What do you all think?

A really close friend and adopted sister of mine is a trauma specialist whose childhood has had a lot of similarity with my own, and then some! She wonders too why some people end up wanting to be on the side of the angels, and others don't. She's in the former category - incredibly wonderful person, empathetic, articulate, thoughtful, able to look critically (and perhaps too critically, it's a fine line) at her own self, highly concerned with truth and authenticity and ethical behaviour. I know a few people who were badly traumatised in childhood, who've grown up into people with all these traits, and are just lovely lovely people. We often joke that all the BS we've had heaped upon us has made excellent fertiliser for growing flowers in!  

But we do have important similarities in our experiences. We were all of us in some way the family scapegoats, whether younger or older - the children who were portrayed unfairly negatively, and who had our caregivers' own faults projected onto us, which we then got punished and belittled for. We also got punished and belittled for attempts to be authentic people, rather than carbon copies of our caregivers. And some of us were socially and physically isolated for long stretches growing up, myself included - there are psychological ways your caregivers can position you like that from early childhood, by always making social interactions painful for you on some level - and they can also physically make sure you don't get together with other people much in your spare time. In my case, luckily, I did go to school, and I had animals at home, even though I was awfully isolated from other human company on weekends and weeknights once we left Europe and moved to Australia. Someone else I know wasn't allowed in school at all, was ostensibly "home schooled" - some people actually home school their children, others only window dress and use their children for their own convenience, which was that person's experience. (She got away in adulthood and caught up on all that missed-out formal education, and has one of the best online resources for people who grew up in narcissistic families I know, it's a superb resource.)

Anyway, people who were scapegoated as children have never personally benefited from their family's fantasy version of life - unlike the Golden Child, who is represented excessively positively and can do no wrong and often likes to hold on to that image and is at high risk of turning narcissistic themselves - but scapegoats are statistically the most likely to wake up, get away, and make significant headway breaking the cycle of dysfunction. The emotional drive for that is often very strong. You're still fighting for your survival, and fighting for daylight, just as you were when you were little. I'm still doing that now, in my 40s - it's one heck of a driver psychologically, but can be a really positive one, and highly motivating, and by the way, it no longer feels desperate like it did when I was younger, it's more Zen now. On a brain level, that's a complex PTSD shaped brain, from childhood - that's what drives the instinctive and emotional levels of that sort of brain, as well as exercising your rational thinking - it's a brain geared primarily towards long-term survival in precarious circumstances. And for the kind of world we're in, that's not actually a bad sort of brain to have in your head, if it's an examined sort of brain and you're not just kneejerk reacting. (And note that this sort of brain actually has a fair bit in common with horse brains too, since their biggest evolutionary threat has been predators leaping at them. So people from traumatic backgrounds often just click with horses and instinctively understand them better than they would have with a "normal", not severely traumatised-in-childhood brain. Interesting, isn't it?)

It's not just the role allocated to you as a child, of course. To complicate the matter, dysfunctional parents tend to pick children who are more empathic and independent than average as the scapegoat - the children who innately don't go along easily with the family fantasy. The chicken-or-egg question is complex here - it's a bit of both. It's an innate disposition, but also reinforced by subsequent bitter experience.

So I obviously can't see someone or something vulnerable being hit and brutalised and bullied without having very strong feelings coming up in me, that motivate me to intervene. And I can't just sit there and feel fine when animals are being subjected to living conditions that are inadequate for their species, and they're showing you how unhappy they are, if you'll just open your eyes and look, and use your brain to observe and think and reflect and put yourself in their position. This isn't about projecting, or about anthropomorphising - I've second guessed through all that jungle already - this is being a living thing and understanding that other living things also matter, and their happiness also matters. It's a really basic thing.

Phew. Hope this helps with our personal puzzles. Have a super Wednesday, all of you. :hug:


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## gottatrot

I woke up today and was able to read through some of the posts, but then of course had to get out to get the horses some exercise before dark. So many excellent things to think about, posts that make me smile and ponder.

The last two nights at work there was no time for breaks, the first was one where you come out the other end thinking you were in some kind of a battle against death. That was in the ICU and I knew we would lose, but a part of me always hopes for one of those rare miracles. I've learned you cannot predict, just keep going with guns blazing until it's all decided one way or another.

Those who are above the fray say to make sure you get rest, and breaks, so you can do your best, but sometimes it comes down to if you turn away at the wrong moment, you lose it all. So it was five hours after going in my patient room that I felt it was safe to cram some food in and coffee while still watching my monitors at the desk, and then it was right back in for more. 

I do have some issues with trust, meaning if I don't think a person who might relieve me is going to have the same level of concern/intensity or skill (meaning that realistically, and humbly), I won't leave. Conversely, if I don't think I have the skill I won't let someone else leave. In my early years as a nurse, I had patients get into a bad way when I was on break, even die. So I get rather possessive and don't leave them unless it's with someone I trust or I feel they don't need watching. 

In all it was a rather exhausting ten hours, before it was over. It doesn't weight on me emotionally, although I feel empathy when I see how the families are. But it requires such exacting critical thinking and also physical skills, with each change requiring the correct decisions and actions. Most, I have to make independently. The hardest ones I have help with from those who are better educated and smarter than I am. 

It's realistic to understand that someone will die, even while trying your hardest to not let that happen, rather than not being optimistic enough. I am an optimist, and a realist, and sometimes there is a different kind of positive result, such as in this case where you buy some time for a family to wrap their minds around what is happening and get a little bit of time to adjust. 

The next night, I was supervisor, and sometimes that means doing a little paperwork and giving people breaks, and other times like last night it was like herding angry cats. The doctors want to know how they can put more patients in units where there are no rooms open and of course the big freezer is going to go out in the kitchen and the wifi won't work and we can't get test results, and staff call in sick.

I appreciated very much that a nurse helped my perspective, when I thought a complaint was uncalled for and she saw the bigger picture, which was that the person complaining was grieving, and the anger was in response to the grief. I thought that family was very lucky to have such an understanding and caring person there to listen and allow for that process.

Sorry, a brief interlude to "debrief" from some hard work days.


----------



## Hondo

Whew! I myself almost need a debrief after reading and I wasn't even involved.


Never thought much about nurses until my cancer "ordeal". One nurse in particular who went to bat with my HMO, who she worked for, and sealed my life saving entry into a successful trials which the HMO did not normally support, I regarded a my real life Guardian Angel.


But you all are Angels. Really. And way too many times thankless angels.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> ...She said, “Don’t you think he’s like that because he was a prison horse?”...


I think that is a very interesting thought your friend had. She has a "story," like I was saying, to help figure out why Cash is behaving a certain way. It might not be correct, but it sounds probable, and gives a place to start with thinking how to make the behavior improve. If he doesn't trust that he will be treated well by others besides you, who have already convinced him is a friend, then how can he be convinced other people are good too?



SueC said:


> ...Yeah, I agree that innate neurological impairments do exist in horses too...
> 
> ...In the case of these horses, their life circumstances promote self-harm - similarly to why some humans self-harm. Once these habits are established, they can become difficult to break completely...
> I don't mean that a human self-harms and therefore their horse starts self-harming. I was using the idea of neurological impairment in humans as a tongue-in-cheek synonym for a reasonably common lack of thought and/or care about keeping them in a species-appropriate way, and treating them with decency...


I like all your thoughts. I had never read Tom Roberts before hearing about his writings on the forum. However, I believe I had run across many of his ideas years ago and implemented them into my training, probably they came from him and others passed them on without giving credit, but possibly some came naturally.  "Quiet persistence" is not something that I had to learn from anyone, but I am pleased to learn that others have found it works. My mother did not seem to believe this was a good quality, thinking of it more like pathological stubbornness. 
How to get a horse to go out alone that doesn't want to? Take him out alone 100 times. The first 50 times or so might be a bit of a struggle. :smile::smile:

I've read (and heard from doctors) about the difficulty in sorting out psychological versus neurological problems. I try to make some sort of differentiation in my mind about them, but am aware you can't just classify many issues as one or another. There are a few purely neurological problems, like a horse that has seizures. 

I learned a lot about it when trying to understand my M-I-L's issues with severe OCD. What can be so tricky, considering a horse that self-mutilates or cribs, is that they believe a horse can have a genetic predisposition to develop the issue, then with the right environmental triggers the issue will show up (same with many psych issues in people). 

But then things become very complex, because like with OCD, behaviors and thoughts actually create strong neural pathways, that change the chemicals and can even change the physical structure of the brain (neural roads and highways). 
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/abcs-child-psychiatry/201512/psychiatric-vs-neurological-can-the-brain-tell

This is how I think I understand it: let's say a horse had a certain little backroad pathway in the brain to release a feel good chemical if he cribbed or bit himself. Under stress, he is more likely to try unusual behaviors, and happens upon this. He tries it again, it is reinforced. Over time, the neural pathway turns into a little bigger road, and if he keeps it up, eventually a big highway. It's the same with OCD, anorexia, and I am guessing PTSD. With OCD, a behavior is tried and the person believes it will make them safer, so it produces chemicals that temporarily relieve anxiety. Between the thoughts and behaviors, new pathways are forged in the brain so it becomes very difficult to avoid doing a behavior, and soon debilitating anxiety occurs if a behavior is not carried out. 

People and horses can improve, if they can have different thoughts and behaviors that don't reinforce those pathways, and don't keep turning them into bigger and bigger super highways. Often the right chemicals can help with the process, but usually you can't just apply a pill and change the brain. 

In all of this, I see like @SueC how many people jump quickly to the "neurological" excuse, and I have just heard it so often as an excuse to put down a horse. It just seems to me that humans have so much blame in most of these problems that we have some sort of responsibility to not just kill every horse that can't handle the unnatural demands we place on them. 

I believe it is super rare that a horse has a problem that can be blamed completely on brain structure or brain injury. Like in that Buck movie, there was some speculation that the horse was "neurological." Does it make sense that a horse with terrible behavior problems due to an anoxic brain injury as a foal also happened to be a bottle fed, spoiled baby, a stallion, and a stallion kept with multiple other stallions? As if he would have behaved the same if raised normally, handled well, gelded early and turned out with a stable herd? As if he would have been a wonderful citizen if bottle fed and kept with stallions as long as he didn't get oxygen deprived during birth? That's so illogical.

I will allow that a brain injury could have played some part in making things slightly worse, but I do not see how you could possibly put blame for the horse's death anywhere except on the owner. It was not "the universe" that created a situation out of her control that made the poor horse a victim. She created the problem all on her own. 



Hondo said:


> Projection is an interesting psychological action....
> When looking at someone else that I consider having a fault, this causes me to wonder about myself at times.


Me too! And as @SueC said, the fact that we do wonder means there is a lot of hope for us. 

I have so much I would like to say about @bsms' post, but this is plenty long for now!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> but usually you can't just apply a pill and change the brain.



Usually. Wanted to mention that just yesterday I read a long but to me riveting article about placebos and how they could even make permanent changes in brain functions.


The research on placebo effect has blurred the lines between biological and psychological.


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## knightrider

Speaking of neurological pathways and habits, my elderly neighbor asked me if I could find out anything about putting a stop to weaving. He has a lovely Paso Fino that rides like a dream and is very safe for him, but she stands in her pen and weaves. She doesn't live in a stall, but with her lovely gaits and kind disposition, she probably was stall kept at some time in her life (possibly as a show horse). Any thoughts on extinguishing this behavior?


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## Knave

I don’t know of any @knightrider. I will say my mare Runt weaved, and it never did seem to effect her in any way. It wasn’t constant though, but occasionally I would see her do it.

ETA: She was never kept with bad practices either in my mind. She was just a super hot bred up horse. She was always with other horses and often turned completely out. She picked on everyone and had her say about everything. Lol. She made me laugh, but a lot of people really disliked the mare.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I had never read Tom Roberts before hearing about his writings on the forum. However, I believe I had run across many of his ideas years ago and implemented them into my training, probably they came from him and others passed them on without giving credit, but possibly some came naturally.


I think that people with a similar underlying philosophy about horses, learning etc will tend to arrive at similar ideas and techniques anyway, by trial and error as well as reflection and contemplation. Sort of like Newton and Leibniz both came up with calculus, because it's logical and it works. Well, logical if that's your kind of logic! ;-)

And because if actually listening to your horse is part of the process, we'll all be learning similar things (with individual variations, sure).

The Tom Roberts manuals were very useful to me as a teenager because I'd not saddle educated a horse before, and reading those kinds of books does reduce the trial and error component, in the same way that it was good for me to read a few recipe books before first attempting to make pizza from scratch as a young person.  I'm also happy I didn't have to _invent_ calculus, because that could have taken a really really long time...




> "Quiet persistence" is not something that I had to learn from anyone, but I am pleased to learn that others have found it works. My mother did not seem to believe this was a good quality, thinking of it more like pathological stubbornness.
> How to get a horse to go out alone that doesn't want to? Take him out alone 100 times. The first 50 times or so might be a bit of a struggle. :smile::smile:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:




> I learned a lot about it when trying to understand my M-I-L's issues with severe OCD. What can be so tricky, considering a horse that self-mutilates or cribs, is that they believe a horse can have a genetic predisposition to develop the issue, then with the right environmental triggers the issue will show up (same with many psych issues in people).


I expect that the genetic component here will be very broad-brush genetics, really to do with basic excitability, intelligence, etc. The more lively and intelligent an animal/person, the more stressed and internally troubled they might become by experiential deprivation, inhumane treatment, etc, and tend to do some sort of displacement behaviour, which is what I think this stuff is - cribbing, self-harming, weaving, OCD. Meditation? ;-) Look at the creative outlets animals and people find for their liveliness and intelligence under favourable circumstances, with Maslow's hierarchy satisfied etc. And then, conversely, roadblock their opportunities to express it...

In my experience (and a swallow doesn't make a summer, but anecdotal evidence is often a good starting point, and here we can all compare experiences, which is so useful!) it's been the most intelligent, excitable and playful horses who appeared to suffer the most from being locked in the same sand yards day in, day out without company, or with the maximum of one for company, and no grazing, and nothing to do all day except wait for the three hay feeds and then returning to the stables at night. This is not, as you'll all understand, an experiment I set up, this is an experiment that (unconsciously) was set up by my parents, for their retired horses - and racehorses retire quite early in the equine life span. The Einstein among these animals was pacing up and down the fencelines like an automaton with dull staring eyes weeks after retirement, and was self-harming soon after that - spinning in circles and biting his flanks bloody until sweating and heaving. A few years after that, the horse was truly broken - was performing ritualistic behaviour most of the day, and if I visited and tried to work with him, it was hard to get him to connect with me anymore, although for many years we had a wonderful working relationship, and so much fun together - I used to ride this horse on long trails as part of his cross-training for racing.

And how I wish I could have retired him with us, because then he would have had a life worth living - but alas, my parents "loved" him too much to let that happen. This horse is kept in the equivalent of solitary confinement imprisonment psychologically, but my parents say that's not true, that he's kept in a luxury hotel with 24/7 room service, and point out the fact that his stable gets mucked out and his food is brought to him and that he "doesn't have to do any work". And of course, from an equine perspective, this is _not_ wonderful, even though a lot of people think it is. "Wow! These horses don't go to the butcher when they finish racing! They get to live a retirement, stabled at night and in rainy weather, and hand-fed!"

But horses are above all social, exploratory, grazing mammals - and that sort of retirement provides very little of their basic needs, beyond food, water and shelter. Horses need exercise, they need to interact with other horses and with an environment worthy of exploration, they are trickle grazers and don't thrive on the "three square meals and two snacks" regime that works for humans - and they don't dream of retiring to a "luxury hotel" where meals are brought to them and they never have to work again. This is an example of people projecting their own human desires on their animals, and failing to recognise them as individual beings with different needs to our own.

Although of course, I'm sure all of you humans here would also say, "If that's retirement, shoot me!" because this is a group of mentally and physically active people whose idea of hell probably looks a bit like a never-ending _Love Boat_ cruise, or being locked eternally in a room with a TV you can't turn off or mute, showing _Days of our Lives_ on endless repeat. mg: (I'm very interested in what a personalised hell would look like for all of you! Pray enlighten me! ...Brett just said, "Italy without the pizza. The whole _Mamma Maria, I've not seen you for five minutes, let me give you *big hug* :hug:  and invite you to tiny little gathering of 90 people, with mandolin music - bellissimo_" business." :rofl: ...and he married _me_... :rofl: ...Marry in haste, repent at leisure and all that... :rofl: )

So we're social outliers here of some sort or another, and is it any wonder we can relate to and work with the outliers in the animal groups as well - just as we can relate to the outliers of our own species? The "complicated, difficult" ones? And we're going, "Hello, this is bleeding obvious!" We already know that particular alphabet.

You can also see this with @DanteDressageNerd and her horse Wonder - a totally apt combination - a marriage made in heaven! 

OMG, this is going to take off in all sorts of random directions if I keep writing, so I'll desist...for now...

Happy to describe a range of individual horses and their post-retirement symptoms or lack of them to you on request if it helps anybody out.


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## SueC

...this was meant to be part of the above post, but I had to split it to keep the emojis...



> But then things become very complex, because like with OCD, behaviors and thoughts actually create strong neural pathways, that change the chemicals and can even change the physical structure of the brain (neural roads and highways)...This is how I think I understand it: let's say a horse had a certain little backroad pathway in the brain to release a feel good chemical if he cribbed or bit himself. Under stress, he is more likely to try unusual behaviors, and happens upon this. He tries it again, it is reinforced. Over time, the neural pathway turns into a little bigger road, and if he keeps it up, eventually a big highway.


Yes, and it's like that with positive, constructive behaviours as well - like taking up a musical instrument, or making your own bed before lunchtime. Maybe part of it is also that the brain really needs to make connections and pathways, and sometimes, that need is greater than the need for that to be a positive behaviour. Just like kids really need attention and connection with adults, and if positive behaviour doesn't get them that, and negative behaviour will, the negative behaviour will be reinforced. So we manage both situations - kids needing attention, beings with brains needing to make neural pathways, _our own selves included_ (we can forget that, but treat yourself like that too) - by providing lots of positive attention, and positive activities and possibilities.




> It's the same with OCD, anorexia, and I am guessing PTSD. With OCD, a behavior is tried and the person believes it will make them safer, so it produces chemicals that temporarily relieve anxiety. Between the thoughts and behaviors, new pathways are forged in the brain so it becomes very difficult to avoid doing a behavior, and soon debilitating anxiety occurs if a behavior is not carried out.


This really made me think, because I'm our PTSD case study, unless anyone else wants to out themselves? ;-) My PTSD, for those who don't know, is complex PTSD:

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/complex-ptsd

I've been repeatedly reminded I'm an unusual case, because despite the very real trauma, I've compensated well and had a lot of resilience. The symptoms listed via the link, I had all of those at one point, mostly in my early 20s, which was a really dark period, and the reason wasn't identified until my early 40s, when I got some recovered memories (as night terrors) to go with my existing understanding of my background. One of the reasons I compensated well is because there actually is a lot of good in the world, and even amongst people, if you go looking for it. And also, my professional work was incredibly meaningful, and I was working with young people in a sort of pseudo-parental role, and treating these people with the respect and decency I wished I'd been treated with was also incredibly healing for me - as were a whole bunch of their shenanigans!  And just the wonderful co-discovery of amazing things about the universe, that can happen in classrooms. I mightn't have had a wonderful birth family, but my "family" made up of other people's kids was amazing, and there was so much fun and achievement and wonder in the space I shared there for fifteen years. (And some detention to help some people discover a work ethic. )

For me, the complex PTSD diagnosis was more an "a-ha!" lightbulb moment that suddenly explained a lot of things about my life - and actually, just knowing this was something I had made it a lot easier to manage the down sides of it, as well as extract the advantages of it really consciously and deliberately.

So, for example, people with OCD often make excellent investigative scientists - they have amazing attention to detail, and will turn themselves inside out in pursuit of an intellectual answer - and having a positive outlet for their compulsions can be really helpful with reducing the negative sides of it. Having complex PTSD has set me up with those traits as well (enhancement of those pathways, blah blah blah), but without the compulsion for it. Basically, in my case, it's because growing up in a dangerous environment makes your brain lastingly hypervigilant. I never realised I was hypervigilant, of course, since that's how I always was. You just intensely notice things, particularly things that might be related to your personal safety. You've all seen that in your horses - they're hypervigilant because evolutionarily, they're prey animals - it's got survival value for them when there are predators around (but might give their attendant monkeys black toenails or turn them into projectiles when riding).

I actually like being hypervigilant - except for one thing: It means that a dripping tap will wake you up, and you struggle to stay asleep in times of stress. A half-dose of SSRIs fixed that nicely for me: Now I sleep like a baby, which is great, since I loooove sleeping. With any PTSD, your brain destroys the serotonin you need to relax and sleep properly, in order to give you the enhanced attention and focus you might need for surviving with a metaphorical hungry tiger stalking you. The down side of the half-dose of SSRIs was that it gave me a sudden intense attraction to my armchair, never before experienced unless I had thoroughly worn myself out with strenuous exercise - which is what I had used to manage sleep all my life, and how I periodically go back to managing it sans SSRIs, because otherwise I truly will turn into a couch potato. (But now I understand the attraction of sofas and armchairs for the general population, who have lots of serotonin.)

I think PTSD is a bit different from things like OCD and anorexia, because with PTSD, you basically have a background anxiety physiologically (you may not notice it mentally - I didn't generally have anxious thoughts, except when there were rationally identified dangers - the background anxiety just made me fidgety and want to exercise because it was like having ants in my pants - so it was hard for me to pick that as being unusual, since I'd never been in another body but my own... I just thought I was like a highly-strung horse, which was true, but the reasons for it were more complex than I realised). What you don't have is intense compulsions which you have to fix with ritualised behaviours, or a real bunch of anxiety that hits you over the head, unless you're in actually dangerous situations, where that enhanced response, in my case, tended to be helpful, rather than harmful - it would make me think, rather than not think (sort of like a startled donkey does, as opposed to a startled horse, which usually runs first and thinks later).

With PTSD, you can also get intense rushes of physiological anxiety in response to triggers that remind your reptile brain (the instinctive, emotional side, not the thinking cerebrum) of your trauma - that's as true for war veterans and car crash survivors as it is for children who grew up in routinely violent families. You may be able to suppress this response until you get home, which is how it was for me once I was a confident adult from my mid/late 20s on - I'm an expert compartmentaliser - I generally deal with stressful situations and issues rationally first, and the emotional stuff is then on hold and comes home to roost later, away from the situation.

With regards to things that are done to relieve anxiety: As a teenager, I was left home completely alone a lot at night in a place in suburban Perth where I was staying during my senior high school years - at a time when a stalker was going around and trying to break into the very group of villas which we were in. The immediate neighbours were two girls who were at university, and they'd had the stalker break through their roller door and get into their backyard once, where they noticed him when they got home. He ran for it, but the whole thing put the wind up me as an adolescent - especially when I came home to find screwdriver marks on the aluminium window frames, where he'd tried to break in. There was no roller door at the villa I was in, and the front door had a pane of glass next to it which could be easily smashed and then an intruder could open the door handle from the inside should they wish - it was that kind of setup, no deadlock. We also had a small wood stove for heating, with an axe to split the wood - and I started taking the axe into my bedroom to study at night, in case I needed to defend myself against an intruder, and though I studied with great absorption, I was always hyper-aware of strange noises, and if there were any, I'd take up my axe, and do a patrol loop of all the windows and doors in the villa, before returning to my study desk, cursing the family I was born into. How I wished for a nice housemate!

Looking back, this doesn't strike me as unusual behaviour for a teenager in that situation to adopt... other than that I wasn't doing a complete mutiny on the Bounty about the situation, and running away from home. It was just the usual mode of, "These circumstances are shiitake, but studying and getting good qualifications is how I'm going to have the best chance of getting away from these circumstances, so that's what I'm going to do, and besides, I _love_ learning." And when I was 16 and starting university and my family started to interfere with my ability to study properly by curfewing me so I couldn't go to the university library at night to work on my assignments (they thought I was having drunken orgies and making excuses), that's when I decided I really needed to get out... and the university welfare officer assisted greatly in this process, thank goodness...

/end immediate thoughts. Should be applicable to quite a few horse and human situations.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, Thank you for the compliment to nurses! I am glad you experienced a good one. Of course there are some bad eggs out there (even serial killers!), but a lot of good ones too. Very interesting about the placebos.
@Knave, probably for the weaving your friend would have to try a number of things, understanding none of them might work. The right buddy horse or two in the right turnout situation with lots of room and grazing might help. The personality of a horse's companion can change a lot in their life. If a horse is pestered by another, it can make them stressed, or if a friend is very active and runs around it might stimulate them to burn off energy too. Evaluating the feed could be helpful, in case there was something exacerbating like a magnesium deficiency, grain causing digestion issues or not enough roughage. 

Speaking of horse companions, it's interesting to me that when Halla was alive, she kept close tabs on Amore, and guarded her like a possession. Most of the time Nala was not allowed to come in close, and when Halla was excited, she'd drive Nala away from Amore. Amore meanwhile would wander around and pay no attention to anyone. Now Nala has taken over that role, which I am not sure why it is necessary to guard Amore, but for some reason it is. At the last property we were at, Halla was friends with a gray/white horse and Amore was mostly wandering around alone. But at this property, she always has a horse at her side. 

Amore always gets the shed when it rains, and she rarely shows aggressive body language to other horses. But even if a horse chases her away from a shed, she comes back in, and if they kick her out again, she comes back in again. Eventually they get tired of it and she wins. I guess she's read about Tom Roberts' "quiet persistence."



bsms said:


> I think my objections to many clinicians and experts is rooted in a deeper problem than their just saying they have the ONE WAY.* I believe many of their practices are based on needing to flip a horse in weeks, or getting surface behavior corrected in an hour or a day.* I believe Parelli and Anderson both started their reputation by working hundreds of colts for sale.
> 
> *The techniques that work fast are often counterproductive for long term development. *"Ask, tell, DEMAND!" works well with a lot of horses - if all you want it surface submission, and if you don't meet horses with a more independent mind. It may also be required for showing since the horse has a hard time understanding why it ought to canter the moment it reaches the E sign, or is doing repetitive patterns to no equine purpose.
> 
> While it may be a good approach to get a response from a horse you will ride one time, or that you ride in meaningless (from a horse's perspective) events, that is a bad way to get a horse you own and ride regularly to work with you as a team mate.


Yes, yes, yes. 
It makes me think also of how many times I've thought I had a horse figured out, or that I had fixed a behavior, only to have it come back later on, or else the horse's personality was different than I thought, once they were healthy and in good shape; in some cases more relaxed, in others more energetic. So then I wonder about the horses that are supposedly fixed by the clinician, and how long that fix actually lasts for the owner. 

Something that I think is quite bad that comes from all the big name trainers and also the concept of 30 or 60 days of training is that many people believe a horse can go to the right trainer and once that little bit of work is put in, the horse is basically trained.
In my experience, a horse can no more get experienced in 30 or 60 days, or at a clinic, than a person can learn a language in 30 or 60 days, or learn to play a sport. You can begin to learn, that is all. 

It makes me remember when an experienced horse person I know rode a mustang that had 30 days training. The horse spooked, and she was bucked off. She was very upset, thinking the trainer had done a poor job. It was one of those times when I forgot to be polite and just started laughing. I told her I expected any horse might buck me off in the first 100 rides, much less after 30 days which probably meant only 15 rides or so. The issue was that she was used to horses that had a whole lot of background prior to their first 30 days under saddle. Mellow stock horses, raised in a domesticated setting where they are handled daily and exposed to people, dogs, and the human environment have a ton of training already in place by the time they actually have a rider get on. That is far different from a mustang that has never been around humans at all until gathered off the range. Any trainer can only get the horse 30 days farther along, and experience can only come through experience over time. 

At the beginning when I was starting to work with horses, I thought I was a particularly dull and slow trainer. It took horses so very long to become what I considered trained. I thought horses really could be trained in 30 days, and not only that, any good trainer would be able to do it that quickly. After a time, I was able to work with some horses that had mellow personalities, and those that had been handled well and also were naturally mellow were quite a breeze. Still, I feel you have to keep in mind that the horse is green, even if they behave calmly and respond to cues, and if they run into something they have no experience with, they might react by bolting, bucking, etc. I think some people fearlessly (blissful due to lack of bad experiences) ride green horses that are calm, and it often works out well because the horse never runs into anything that highlights their inexperience during the period of time where they are still getting exposure out in the world.

Regarding Danny Emerson, the book looks very interesting. It's great if he as a famous rider is putting out ideas about treating horses better and working through their training more slowly and based on their individual temperament.


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## gottatrot

When I was looking at Denny Emerson's book, I came across another book I want to read called "In the Middle Are the Horsemen." By Tik Maynard, who I know nothing about. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1570768323/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_sims_2
What caught my attention was this quote on the back of the cover:


> "Look at it this way," he said, gesturing to the left with his head while managing the rope. "Over here are the 'natural horsemen.' And often there is nothing natural about what they do. And over there," he nodded to the right, "are the, well, whatever the opposite is - the people who don't take into account the horse and what its capabilities and tendencies are." Bruce paused for a second, thinking. "There are a lot of those guys, I guess. In the middle, though, are the horsemen."


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> making your own bed before lunchtime



I once read that making a bed was wrong, that it should be left open to air out just like a sleeping bag.


Didn't have to tell me twice!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I am not sure why it is necessary to guard Amore, but for some reason it is.



That is so interesting. Based on your reports on Amore's (personality?), it makes sense somehow.


But the thing that is perhaps even more interesting is for an adult horse feeling the need/desire/or whatever to provide protection for another adult horse.


That's something only us humans are supposed to be capable of. There's just so much going on inside that equine head.


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## knightrider

I am loving all this discussion about the human and horse brain. I was a special education teacher for many years and have a strong fondness for all those hurting kids who are "different." I am lucky that our little next door neighbor girl has emotional problems and that I can match her up with messing around with our horses. I posted this video for DanteDressageNerd, but I think perhaps some of you haven't seen it and would like it too.


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## egrogan

Isabel is passionate about guarding Fizz. When I take Fizz out to ride, Izzy is beside herself (why I have three horses...) and as soon as Fizz is back and untacked, Izzy will spend a lot of time herding her around, moving her from one pasture to another. It’s pretty fascinating to watch, as they shared a field at our previous boarding barn and Izzy never acted that way towards Fizz there.


ETA: Typically Izzy..."_Fizz, you will be in the shed now. Because I said so."_


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## Hondo

@knightrider The clear honesty of the little ones is so therapeutic to this big one.


Was relating the story about Grandin's hug machine and then the invention of a hug backpack to a teacher recently whose eyes widened with this story:


The school has a dress code with white T-shirts for the boys. 



One boy had a black one on. He was autistic and rather than upset him she asked the principle about it. The principle said it was ok. It was a compression shirt.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I once read that making a bed was wrong, that it should be left open to air out just like a sleeping bag.
> 
> 
> Didn't have to tell me twice!


:rofl:

The two actually aren't mutually exclusive! You get up, flip the bedding open, open all the bedroom windows/doors to the outside, air it, make the bed when everything has aired. A "sniff test" of the bedding will tell you when it's nice and fresh again.

_Please insert 50c into the slot for further housekeeping tips._ :Angel:


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## Hondo

@*SueC* If I had to pay 50 cents for all the housekeeping tips you'd make if you saw where and how I live, Hondo would go hungry.


Think cowboy in a remote line camp.


Edit: There's one thing in this picture that does not fit. What is it?


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## gottatrot

Does he have his hat on backwards?


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## DanteDressageNerd

When I get back on Monday I'll respond more thoroughly but wanted to say there are some really interesting and deep discussions here that are really well thought out and considerate. There is a lot of depth and it's given me a lot to think about. Amazing thread!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Does he have his hat on backwards?



Speaking of deep discussions.......hee hee


Nope. Hat is not on backwards. BTW, the style he is wearing is called a Gus Bend. The bend refers to the shape of a particular hat.


He is clean shaven. Not impossible but somewhat unlikely or improbable that he would be that clean shaven in those environs. So I'd bet he is posing for the picture. His face also just doesn't have the gnarled look of those that live and work out in the brush. There are still some of those people in the part of Arizona where I'm living. I've seen a few. There's not much between them and the old West we read about. Not sure I've ever seen one with a clean shave.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* If I had to pay 50 cents for all the housekeeping tips you'd make if you saw where and how I live, Hondo would go hungry.


Bwahahaha! :rofl: Then simply don't pay me, and I won't spout forth more housekeeping tips. The occasional one is free! ;-)




> Think cowboy in a remote line camp.


I'm thinking you and our Bill (of the Sunday lunches) have lots in common!  He lived in a caravan for over 20 years. Moved into his house in the suburbs hitherto rented out a few years ago when the block he was camping on was sold, and wishes he was back in the bush, but won't go now because he can't find a tenant. He's 84 and told me the other day he'd not vacuumed for four years and that his (older) sister was giving him a hard time about it. :rofl: I was surprised that even people of that age can't seem to accept that a person is the king of their own castle and makes their own rules on how they choose to live in their castle. He's not endangering the neighbourhood. And his caravan was always fine inside. He's now told her that she doesn't have to visit if she can't accept how he chooses to live, because he was tired of having her come around simply to criticise him. Good on him - who needs people like that, related or not.

Bill rode when younger but doesn't now, but he still rides his bicycle on fitness laps every day. And boy can he skin a kangaroo! And do all sorts of inventive stuff. Fished for tuna for a good stretch of his life, on his own little boat.  I can almost imagine you two sitting by a campfire yarning. 




> Edit: There's one thing in this picture that does not fit. What is it?


I know you've already told us the answer, but Brett thinks the gun is on backwards. I was thinking I'd draw a gun across my body, so I wouldn't do my shoulder ligaments, in which case it would be the right way around, but I know nothing about guns except that they go bang. Brett says that's not how they do it in the movies, but we've already established here that most real cowboys don't ride like most C-grade movie actors... Please give us your opinion on the gun placement! :smile:


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## Hondo

@*SueC* I can recall seeing pistols worn on the left and (backwards?) both in movies and in real life. 



Would not be the best for quick draw for a right handed person, but when I do wear a revolver, which is not often, I prefer it worn on the left side myself. It is just easier to reach across and the hand falls more naturally on the butt of the gun. Plus, being right handed, the gun just seems to "get in the way" more on the right side.


Most cowboys around here, (me not being a cowboy at all), do carry a revolver. Often it's hidden in a pocket in the chaps so as not to alarm newbies not accustomed to the area.


Only time I've experienced one being fired was when we were meeting up with a neighbor for a joint ride/roundup. Our dogs and the neighbors dogs, 6-7 in all, got into a big fight. One of the guys said, "I'm gonna shoot", and bang! Hondo jumped a little but not bad considering the guy was no more than 20 feet away. That seems to be the standard way to break up a dog fight. Might be handy if a bull was rolling his head thinking about an attack. Been there but successfully drifted Hondo slowly off and away. 


I have wondered what I would do if Hondo broke a leg or something when I could not leave him and could not stay either. That has concerned me but mostly have chosen to just not do terrain where that could happen.


You may have me pegged in the wrong box.....or not. Remember I have taught high school Advanced Math, Physics, and Chemistry. But I'd still relish sitting around a campfire with Bill.


I did of course, mostly leave regular civilized life 20 years ago. Yep, I've thought it would be nice to have a cabin with a dirt floor. Track it in, track it out


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## SueC

Thanks for that gun explanation!  Thank goodness that broken legs don't happen very often when trail riding; it would be a really bad thing to be stuck solo in a situation like that.

I don't think I have you in the wrong box. Bill isn't dumb, he just had to leave school at age 12 because of economic circumstances in Australia, so ended up fishing etc, but he's one of the most amazing amateur naturalists I know. And if my teaching various things at a very high level and having been a reseach scientist in my 20s doesn't stop me from associating with Bill, I don't think it would stop you, since I don't have you pegged for a snob!  :Angel:

You'd have a great time around the campfire, I'm sure. Do Americans make billy tea as well when camping?

Time for Antipodeans to sleep. Have a great day, @Hondo and everyone! :ZZZ:


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## phantomhorse13

SueC said:


> Brett thinks the gun is on backwards. Brett says that's not how they do it in the movies


I think this depends on how many guns the cowboy has and which hand(s) they use to shoot. My DH carries a single gun and he is right-handed, so the gun is "backwards" on the left for all the reasons Hondo mentioned. 




Hondo said:


> I have wondered what I would do if Hondo broke a leg or something when I could not leave him and could not stay either. That has concerned me but mostly have chosen to just not do terrain where that could happen.


A misstep can happen anywhere.. a friend was walking along a flat, established trail when her horse stumbled over a stick and went down, breaking his shoulder upon landing. Certainly a freak accident, but more proof that horses can find unimaginable ways to hurt themselves. However, if you carry a sharp knife with you, you have a couple different options for ending a mortally-injured horse's suffering if needed.. sure hope it's never needed!



I have a lot to catch up on with this thread.. hopefully can do that this weekend during Snowmaggedon.


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> Bill isn't dumb, he just had to leave school at age 12



I hope neither you or anyone else thinks my intention was to suggest Bill was dumb, as it is certainly not.


My own Dad left school at the third grade and was not dumb at all. In his case, he had cataracts so bad he could not see the blackboard or make out the words in the books in front of him. They thought he was retarded until they figured it out.


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## Hondo

There is one person on the ranch where I'm currently living that always packs iron out in the brush. Fast draw is not really required as personal protection from outlaws is not the main reasons for "packing".


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## bsms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_draw

A S&W Ladysmith J-frame revolver (which I normally carry) versus a single action Ruger (which I shoot for fun):








I can carry the J-frame on either side, forward or back. The Ruger weighs twice as much and is much bulkier. GREAT for shooting. Minimizes recoil and the gun rotates back in your hand, ready to be cocked again. But...big. If you need to use your right arm when riding, for roping or for whacking people with your saber, a big gun will get in your way. 

That my story and I'm sticking to it. I also find cross draw carry more comfortable.

One option we are considering is staying near here in a smaller house. I don't carry a gun when riding locally. But if I buy a good trailer, I could haul Bandit & Trooper 3-4 miles from here - across the really rocky ground - and then ride where there is good, smooth footing for horses. If I do, I'll carry there. Not everyone you meet in the back country is your friend...


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> A misstep can happen anywhere.. a friend was walking along a flat, established trail when her horse stumbled over a stick and went down, breaking his shoulder upon landing. Certainly a freak accident, but more proof that horses can find unimaginable ways to hurt themselves. However, if you carry a sharp knife with you, you have a couple different options for ending a mortally-injured horse's suffering if needed.. sure hope it's never needed!


I've imagined trying to put a horse out of her suffering with a knife, and decided I'd rather use a gun if possible. It's not been uncommon for me to be out alone with a horse where cell phones don't get any reception. My Glock 43 (9mm) is quite small, so I can carry it just behind my right hip. 








We've also gone from having less than 2,000 mountain lions in Oregon when I was a kid and roaming the woods to about 6,500 nowadays. At least I might scare one off with a loud bang if it started stalking us. I believe I would jump off the horse first.


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## bsms

"We have found four cases where 9 mm pistols were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber

I've got a Ruger EC9 (9mm) which I like, and a Glock 27 (.40 S&W) which shoots well but feels a little awkward to my hand. I mostly carry the small revolver. I've shot revolvers for decades. It often has a thick rubber grip on it and I can shoot it with 357 then. Only 5 rounds. My theory is that I'll only have time to get one shot off so I need to make that one shot a good one - and one with some punch.

George Adamson (of Born Free fame) was once asked about how he could go after man-eating lions armed with a double rifle. He supposedly replied, "_Wait until 10 yards. Don't miss._" I wonder if he realized what one scientist reported years later: A charging lion can cover the last 20+ feet airborne. Given Adamson's experience with lions, I think he knew. Talk about nerves of steel!

My SIL sometimes dirt bikes way out into the desert. He has come across drug caches. Leaves the area IMMEDIATELY. But he carries a gun to hopefully give the other people something to worry about as he flees. FWIW, the only time I've pulled a gun in a threatening situation, it was a 22 revolver. The other guys didn't seem interested in the SIZE of the hole in the barrel. That I had a gun was enough for me to walk away.

I usually wear a long sleeve, untucked shirt when hiking. Or a coat if it is cooler. Then I carry the revolver like this, under my shirt/coat. Discrete but available. I might try it a few times while riding, unloaded, to see how well it works. That is my cell phone pocket (a flip phone) when I ride:







I've never carried while riding. My wife seems comfortable with the idea of getting a good 2 horse trailer. Regardless of where we end up living, a trailer would allow us to go much deeper into the back country. Lots of options would open up. If we do, then being prepared for bad things - injured horse, predators or bad people - will be important. And there are still a lot of places without cell phone coverage. PS: Remains one of my favorite books:








George Adamson's book A Lifetime with Lions is in many ways more level-headed. Joy Adamson tended to write the myth, while George stuck to the reality of life with lions - and he spent far more years living very close to them than Joy did. The Great Safari is a biography of both Joy and George Adamson. I enjoy the myth, but respect the reality more. They were both remarkable people living in a world that no longer exists. It is like reading about the vast buffalo herds of the 1800s. I try to imagine it. But I can't.


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## Hondo

I have never ever been in a place where I wished I had a firearm for protection. Never have. Just never have felt threatened.


It may be because my philosophy is that if I think I may need a firearm to go someplace, I go someplace else.


And actually I've never felt threatened by a predator. And I've spent almost all of my time outside in the out back for the last 20 years.


If I carry one, it will be for the slight possibility that Hondo need to end suffering.


That said, if I were female, I suspect I would want one in situations where I don't feel the need as it is.


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## Knave

One day we were trailering home from work. The girls were in the back seat with my mother, and my husband, father and I in the front. We drove upon two men who flagged us down.

They were good looking men. Muscled up heavy and short haired, they looked like they were military. The one was in the back of the truck with a dog. He said he wanted to show us something, and he pulled out two pistols. He was waving them around, “Look at the twins.” (Seriously, that is what he said. Picture me rolling my eyes as I tell you this.) He talked like he was very drunk, and he wore an ugly hat, but something seemed off about it to me. First and foremost, he pulled these two pearl handled pistols out and was waving them around. It just struck me wrong, like he wasn’t as drunk as he were making out, and it could easily turn bad.

My eyes were sorting through the truck. Where was a gun? How was I not finding a gun? Nothing came of it. We drove away unharmed, but I was shocked at the lack of a gun. There is always a gun. Apparently if you point a gun at me I will plan on shooting you.

That is the only time I wished I had a gun. I have been in bad situations before, but even then I guess I didn’t want to shoot anyone. Maybe it was because my girls were in the car, but I just felt like I wished I was prepared for the situation I found myself in. 

The women in the car had the same gut feeling as I did, that there was something wrong. The men laughed and said they had drank too much.

Anyways, I guess it showed me to appreciate that there is usually always a gun. I don’t carry one riding though.


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## Hondo

There are often stories appearing in the news about someone that would likely have been killed had they not had a gun.


But statistically, I tend to think that risk is minuscule.


Additionally, in the case experienced by Knave , if the two men waving the pistols had seen someone inside bring up a gun, they possibly could have opened fire, thinking they needed to protect themselves in their inebriated state, and people could have gotten hurt or killed.


Glad it ended ok.


It would be interesting to know how many, if any, innocent people killed that are armed who other wise would not have been killed, had they not had a gun.


A principle at a school where I worked was often gone at night to meetings and his wife was uneasy being alone so at her request he got her a gun to keep her safe.


One night he was going to a long distant meeting, went to the school to pick up stuff, then remembered he left it at home. When he walked into the dark bedroom and turned on the light his wife was sitting up in bed with a revolver pointed at him.


There's a lot of those stories also. I had a gun rack over my bed with a 22 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun when I was a preteen. But they were not for self defense.


All said, I'm a firm supporter in the right to bear arms. As much remote camping that I've done, if it was considered likely that I was not armed, as it would be in some countries, I would not have felt safe in some places.


Just the likelihood of someone being armed is a sizeable deterrent in many cases, IMO. 



But having a shoot out with someone more skilled that has lesser objection to killing people than the defender, is likely not to turn out well.


But all that aside, my RV does sport two 22 pistols, one 22 rifle, one 38 police special snub nose, and for defense, a 12 gauge pump shotgun with an 18.25" barrel loaded with double 0 buckshot which consist of, I forget, 8-10, 38 caliber lead balls in each of 7 magnum shells.


If you really need to defend yourself, no substitute for the size of firepower. Those are fairly accurate even if scared and shaking as many would be, including myself.


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## Knave

Oh, I wouldn’t have picked up a gun noticeably at all @Hondo. I agree that would be asking to get shot.


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## bsms

The one time I needed a gun, I had brought it along for plinking while hiking. Got back to my car & 8 guys were drinking booze while sitting on my car. They said nothing, but started to surround me. I pulled my 22 revolver & figured whoever got to me first would take a bullet up the nose. Wouldn't be able to do much about the other 7. 

Humans can read body language too. I didn't say anything, but they all seemed to lose interest in being the first one to get to me. 35 years ago. In situations like that, I don't carry a gun to survive. I carry a gun so I won't die alone.

Also had a professor who had half his face removed by a grizzly bear. Survived largely from the courage of a graduate student who threw ROCKS at the grizzly. Climbed a tree and got away from her. She went back and started to finish the job, and the grad student climbed down and threw more rocks. Then quickly climbed a tree. And then she left. Humans like to believe we are the top of the food chain, but a lot of animals don't see it that way. I've read the gun statistics on the surprising effectiveness of various calibers, but a Glock 27 is about the smallest gun I'd want right then! A friend who worked for the US Forest Service in Alaska was required to carry, at his waist, a 375 H&H Magnum at all times. Said he understood why the first time he found half of a salmon with the blood still squirting out of it...

Hiking this summer, had two little kids with me and passed a sign warning of cougars. Kids are like cougar catnip. Didn't turn around and didn't have any cougars attack, but my pocket knife sure felt might small right then. A 375 H&H Magnum would have felt about right. Although cougars are not known for saying, "_Here am I! Shoot me!_"


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## Hondo

I actually purchased the sawed off shotgun for protection from predators. I was planning a trip to Canada and my reading suggested it was a good idea. Visitors can't have pistols in Canada but they allow a sawed off shotgun. Application has to be made 6 months in advance and it is important to use the reason as protection from predators. If you say from people, the application is rejected.


All this so I was told.


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## SueC

All this talk of guns is very well and dandy, but David slew Goliath with a slingshot, and Samson slew 1000 Philistines with a donkey's jawbone. How's that? And my donkeys say they're not volunteering just now, but may become jawbone donors after dying of old age.


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## Hondo

@SueC Hee hee.


I guess you and Brett are fairly well convinced by now that the cowboy in the picture was not out of place by wearing his gun backwards.


But you're sorry yall suggested it


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> if I were female, I suspect I would want one in situations where I don't feel the need as it is.





Knave said:


> The women in the car had the same gut feeling as I did, that there was something wrong. The men laughed


I think this is a great example of the difference between the average male and female mindset - and I think there most certainly is one, regardless of how equal we try to make gender-related things.

The last time DH and I hauled the horses home from a ride, we stopped at a rest stop. Due to the early hour, it was fairly deserted. DH had been driving, so had the truck key when we got out. I asked him for it and while he raised an eyebrow at the request, he handed it over and we both went our separate ways (bathrooms being located on the outside of the building on opposite ends). He was waiting for me as I exited the bathroom and commented with a chuckle on my holding the truck key in my fist "like a weapon." When I agreed - that was exactly why I wanted the key - he looked startled. I would not go into a deserted rest stop bathroom alone without some way to protect myself, yet he didn't think anything of it.

City-raised female paranoia? I am sure some would think so.. but I suspect I am not alone in my thinking.




Hondo said:


> If you really need to defend yourself, no substitute for the size of firepower.


Agreed. While I hope to obtain a concealed carry permit at some point, I have no idea how accurate I would be in a truly threatening situation with a gun small enough for me to carry comfortably. However, in our bedroom we have a double barrel shotgun loaded with bear shot - all I would need to do was aim in the vicinity of the intruder and would likely do some damage (or even better, the sight of the gun would have him fleeing before a shot was necessary).




bsms said:


> I don't carry a gun to survive. I carry a gun so I won't die alone.


This is a very interesting statement - one I find myself agreeing with. While I would certainly prefer to diffuse the situation if possible (as you did), I certainly would not stand by quietly if someone was causing me harm. Is that the attitude that makes us "gun happy Americans" to the rest of the world?


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## knightrider

By phantomhorse13


> but I suspect I am not alone in my thinking.


You are quite right. My sister-in-law was raped in a gas station bathroom. He was hiding in there when she went in to use it.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, that's terrible.



Hondo said:


> It would be interesting to know how many, if any, innocent people killed that are armed who other wise would not have been killed, had they not had a gun.


In my experience the only time I'm likely to panic is if one of my animals is badly injured, rather than in a situation that is dangerous to myself. But I don't think I would be likely to pull the trigger if an animal wasn't in unbearable suffering, I'd probably try getting a splint on an injured mountain lion if it would let me rather than shoot it. 
I could imagine the wildlife rescue telling me they are not equipped to take predators at this time.

So I guess if a person would not have been killed if they weren't carrying a gun, I can't feel too sorry for them if they pulled it out and pointed it at me. But it is a good point, and a reason why DH wouldn't let me carry until I was legal to carry concealed, because he thought it made things more dangerous. If I look small and weak, anyone who might want to try to overpower me does not need to know I can protect myself. If they step over the line into aggression, it becomes their mistake. 

I think it's important to know yourself and think about what is most risky for ourselves, similar to how we decide what safety measures we use when riding, such as helmet, type of saddle, stirrups, boots. Hopefully I have enough experience with human aggression to not over react. 
At work I've been kicked, punched, slapped, grabbed, had stuff thrown at me, and a very old man tried to strangle me with my hair once. I almost was bitten by a drunk girl once, but moved my hand just in time. The tricky part about all of that is that we almost always are trying to carefully not hurt the person who is actively trying to hurt us. The last time I was hit recently it was by a very frail woman whose disease made her very aggressive, and she was so fast I couldn't even blink so she slapped my face a couple times before I figured out her range. People have different perspectives, but I always think about how much harder a horse can kick or slam you with their head and it doesn't seem so bad. 

I remember once I was running alone by a lake in a more populated area, and a man was walking toward me on the same side of the road. I changed my path so we'd pass with space between us, and (I thought) discreetly put my hand in my pocket around the mace I had. He crossed over to the other side where he felt safer I guess, and it made me feel like he thought I'd mace him for no reason.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @SueC Hee hee.
> 
> I guess you and Brett are fairly well convinced by now that the cowboy in the picture was not out of place by wearing his gun backwards.
> 
> But you're sorry yall suggested it


Actually, I've loved the side track everyone's been on, it's really interesting! 

Plus if you remember, it was Brett who thought it was backwards, but I thought it's how I'd wear it if I had a gun, because I didn't want to do my shoulder ligaments in! :Angel: As it turns out, it's a matter of preference, although all y'all seem to prefer to cross-draw, as would I. I also know this because I'm right-handed, but always keep my iPod in my left pocket, so I can cross-draw my iPod! :rofl:

I wonder how the iPod would go as an emergency defence weapon... I've got an old, clunky model of a good weight, which could be hurled by the headphones like a ball and chain, if I superglue the headphones into the socket - or could be thrown directly, if I had good aim! (Someone I know once picked up a gumnut - about walnut-sized fruiting body off a particular eucalyptus tree that grows here - and tossed it at a parrot that was sitting in the oaten hay a horse was eating. Brained the thing, and that wasn't even the intention, but one dead parrot. Now if I could aim like that at a baddie with my iPod...)

To turn serious about this topic for a moment (wrench though it is for me), I've had pepper spray since my late 20s, when a girl my age was killed solo hiking a beach walk in Geraldton, and that was too close to the bone, as I was solo hiking regularly before I met Brett, because not many people I knew thought it was fun to go out in the bush or on the coast and walk for hours. There was only one occasion in my life where I nearly used it - had it ready to go because of the situation, but then bumped into a group of hikers and simply continued with them. But boy was I glad I had it.

Brett did kendo in his youth and taught me to fight with a heavy cane after we were burgled in 2012. It's quite amazing what speeds a heavy cane can get up to, and what damage it can do to a practice strawbale! It's also hard to disarm a person with a cane who's using it correctly. (Brett was telling me the other day that an axe is a comparatively useless weapon.) Plus, I have a really sharp pitchfork... and that cPTSD hypervigilance, and a good store of anger since we were burgled... (we weren't there when it happened, but boy did it give me a reserve of grrrr to tap into that I can use to advantage if I ever need it...)

It's a sad thing that we're having to think about defending ourselves from members of our own species. A rotten lot in some ways, I think, this species of ours... and yet many use the term "animal" for an insult, how ironic is that...


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> I think, this species of ours..



Naw, that's too broad a stroke. There is so much good in this species of ours that it can bring tears to a Spartan's eyes.


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## bsms

Way I figure it, in most cases, the bad guys are not going to telegraph their bad intentions early - unless they have been drinking and are counting on outnumbering a person 8:1! By the time I know someone means to do me in, we're likely to be at VERY close range. The small S&W revolvers are of a type that used to be called a "belly gun" - if you've been slammed up against a wall, or they are on top of you, stuff the revolver in their belly and pull the trigger. No aiming required, just the ability to GET to the gun! I've also heard them called "Get off me" guns!

Handguns are surprisingly hard to aim at any distance (excepting very serious shooters). Met a truck driver once. Three people pulled guns on him at a deserted rest stop in NM one evening. He figured he was going to die, so he took off running. They fired a lot of rounds at him in the darkness. Hit twice, but nothing vital. Lived to ID his attackers.

If anyone ever threatens to shoot your horse, remember the Civil War. Many horses survived being hit a half-dozen times or more by big rifles. And a scared horse can open up 25 yards fast!

Pepper spray can be very good as a non-lethal alternative. I can carry it places I cannot legally carry a gun. One nice thing is you can use it without first needing to be absolutely certain of the threat.

Don't carry either riding horses. Don't often carry in town. Not a huge danger at 10 AM at the tack & feed store. Oddly enough, I always carry at church now. I've had people tell me I should be willing to die to "show Christ". I tell them I'd rather take the guy with me. I'll introduce him to Jesus on the other side. My pastor sometimes worries about me & my theology, but I think he agrees with me on this one.

It really IS a pity folks who love the outdoors need to think about these things. Like a lot of things with horses, it is a very individual decision - no right or wrong answer. Miss being a kid and staying out in the woods until dark without a thought of trouble.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Naw, that's too broad a stroke. There is so much good in this species of ours that it can bring tears to a Spartan's eyes.


Well, I think that's true, and if I didn't fundamentally like people, I wouldn't have enjoyed working up to my neck in them for my whole professional life!  I've seen a lot of good in people. But it would be remiss not to notice what humans as a whole are doing to the planet, and each other, on a daily basis. I've seen light, and dark, and need to address both. Growing up like I did, the first thing I learnt is that humans are dangerous. The next thing I learnt, when I met some really nice people, is that really nice people do exist out there too, and it's those I'm enthusiastic about - not the guy who burgled our place and hung my underwear up all over the house, or the guy who raped @knightrider's SIL, or the guy I nearly had to pepper spray, or the people who're constantly throwing their trash into our roadsides like the planet is a garbage can and other people don't matter, or the people I know who lie pathologically, or my immediate blood family who had no compunction hitting me and terrorising me throughout childhood and taking that French mare that was supposedly mine and breeding from her against veterinary advice so that she bled out after having that foal she shouldn't have had (and I sat helplessly on the ground beside her watching her die when I was 13), or the politicians, bankers etc in our country who stuff their pockets with our money and make their own crimes legal by changing the laws to suit themselves, or my ex-classmate who used to delight in tying cats to railway lines and watching them be run over by the train... I could go on, but won't.

It's not binary either - most of us are shades of grey. But I've no time for people who are habitually cruel and careless to other people and creatures, and don't feel any need to change how they operate. The sorts of people whose presence is the reason why this lovely group of people here on this journal is discussing firearms and self-defence.


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## SueC

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think this is a great example of the difference between the average male and female mindset - and I think there most certainly is one, regardless of how equal we try to make gender-related things.
> 
> The last time DH and I hauled the horses home from a ride, we stopped at a rest stop. Due to the early hour, it was fairly deserted. DH had been driving, so had the truck key when we got out. I asked him for it and while he raised an eyebrow at the request, he handed it over and we both went our separate ways (bathrooms being located on the outside of the building on opposite ends). He was waiting for me as I exited the bathroom and commented with a chuckle on my holding the truck key in my fist "like a weapon." When I agreed - that was exactly why I wanted the key - he looked startled. I would not go into a deserted rest stop bathroom alone without some way to protect myself, yet he didn't think anything of it.
> 
> City-raised female paranoia? I am sure some would think so.. but I suspect I am not alone in my thinking.


Yeah, excellent point. Basically, in our cultures, if you're female, then you've pretty much grown up with an awareness of threat of harm from the time you could speak.

I certainly did. Complicating things for me was being born into a violent family, and seeing violence first-hand from the cradle. The resultant cPTSD wired my brain for extra hypervigilance, but checking with females from non-violent families of origin, most have a degree of hypervigilance and an awareness that they could be attacked.

My mother was forever reading out newspaper stories to me about girls getting raped, girls getting abducted, etc, before I was even in school (I now find that really dodgy, it's too early), and when I started walking or cycling to primary school, I'd actually change to the other side of the road if I saw any man coming down the sidewalk - always calculating it so I would be out of sudden attack range. Nobody even got to offer me lollies, I was hyper-aware of any car driven by a man, and any car slowing down, and got out of there.

As an adult, I'm still hyper-aware of those sorts of situations, and create physical space for myself, or rehearse where my pepper spray is, or bunch up my keys, or get ready to turn into a leaping scratching cat, etc etc - you're automatically making a Plan B, and a Plan C. For me there's no anxiety with any of this, it's just a neutral programme. Anxiety only happens when things get dicey, and since the burglary, that anxiety has been replaced with anger - which is really useful for self-defence. It's just sitting in a self-defence bottle waiting for me to pull the cork off it in a situation like that - and it's so much better than fear, because fear will paralyse you. It's also so much better to think of these people as the idiots they are - the "grown-up" school bullies - and not think of them as dangerous predators - that's just giving them too much power, and inviting too much fear. 




knightrider said:


> You are quite right. My sister-in-law was raped in a gas station bathroom. He was hiding in there when she went in to use it.


 @knightrider, that's shocking... when I was a university student and looking at how animals defended themselves, and some of the weapons built into their bodies - you know, ants spraying acid, skunks spraying stink, octopods using ink to conceal themselves, dinosaurs with barbed club tails, the other use of talons, fangs, etc etc - I had this thought that if women had shark teeth built into their private area that were activated under duress, that would soon have removed rapists from the gene pool, and also made people a bit more careful about whether they indeed had consent. :Angel: On the other hand, it probably would have made the entire male population, spouses included, paranoid about malfunctions! :rofl: And there endeth humankind. (Why is it called humankind, when it's often humanunkind? English is such a funny language. :Angel




bsms said:


> Don't often carry in town. Not a huge danger at 10 AM at the tack & feed store. Oddly enough, I always carry at church now. I've had people tell me I should be willing to die to "show Christ". I tell them I'd rather take the guy with me. I'll introduce him to Jesus on the other side. My pastor sometimes worries about me & my theology, but I think he agrees with me on this one.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I do think it's a fascinating topic. When I was a teenager, I was a total pacifist: No excuse to kill anyone. Gandhi and MLK were my heroes, and to a large degree still are. But I sort of modified my point of view - for example, if someone's pulling their gun and shooting people in public, take him out ASAP, preferably with a headshot, not just a disabling shot - save us, as a community, the legal expenses and the cost of keeping that person in jail / mental hospital, and also, save us from a person like that getting out on "good behaviour" to be a threat to the community ever again. This is basically terrorism, even though that person is usually "one of ours" - but to me it makes no difference what group that person is coming from, and what "reason" they have to kill random people - it's _never_ an acceptable reason.

And if someone is getting in your space and threatening you physically, do whatever you need to do to defend yourself, and protect your life and your health. Ditto if you can help someone else in that situation.

After that, it gets blurry for me - lots of complex situations exist. But I think the biggest shift in opinion I have since my teenage days on that topic, is that I no longer believe that everybody can be rehabilitated. I think sociopathy is very real - not just lack of good parenting etc.

I do think, both on a personal and on an international relations level, that prevention is so much more effective than cure. And I think the best prevention is that people should be decent to each other, and not think "me first, to hell with everyone else". To foster social justice, and community.

I'm involved in grass roots movements in my own country because I actually have come to think positive change is more likely to come from the grass roots level, and not from the political and economic systems under which we operate - those are inherently dysfunctional and unfair, and entrenched. At the end of the day, all I can believe in is the power of people who have their hearts in the right place, and who are willing to do positive things. And essentially, that's also what MLK thought.


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## gottatrot

I believe it is easier to watch out for body language that is tense, or escalating, and people who have an aggressive posture. Or notice those who are compromised mentally due to substances or illness. I think the most dangerous would be meeting a psychopath, because I've heard they don't give any indication they mean aggression or harm, but will approach in a calm and friendly manner and it is against our nature to think someone like that means us harm. 

I feel peaceful when out on a mountain where it is reasonable to believe there is no one around for miles, or perhaps someone hiking or hunting. I felt very tense when we were at a football game last year and during the exit they channeled many hundreds of people all jammed together through fenced corridors outside. Anyone could have walked up and started shooting, but everyone trapped inside had been disarmed.

We're on the upswing here with darkness falling a bit later now. So I was able to make a grainy video at dusk, of Hero getting some exercise. At first he thought mostly of Amore who was nearby in the arena, and tried biting his lunge line for fun. 

His stride gets springier and looser as he goes, and you'll notice he can pick up a canter quite well, and on the correct leads front and hind. He shakes his head as he begins most of the time, I believe he is wondering/waiting for his stifles to catch, and thinking he'll need to buck if it does. 
(Music: theme from the Detectorists by Johnny Flynn).


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> It really IS a pity folks who love the outdoors need to think about these things.Miss being a kid and staying out in the woods until dark without a thought of trouble.



I guess I must still be a kid. :happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:


..................................................................................................................................................................................



I think it's important for the mind and soul to give at least as much press to the good in people as to the bad. And as much press to positive experiences as the bad.


As a kid in my teens I hitchhiked from Arkansas to California and back twice. And in my early twenties several solo round trips in a car. There were many stories about rest stops back then and I was always super leery of them. I'd stop along a road somewhere before using them. Like I've mentioned, if I don't feel safe, I try to go somewhere else.


It's a pity about feeling anxious in a crowded ballgame now. Just imagine what it must feel like in some countries.


Sometimes when I worry about things, I like to remember a reply made by Dr. Dean Odell on his radio program.


It was back when the aids thing was first in the news and becoming a problem. There were still pay phones in phone booths back then.


A caller asked Dr. Odell if a person with aids had a sore on his lip and touched the phone with the sore and another person with a sore on his lip used the phone and touched the same spot could he catch aids.


Dr. Odell replied that yes, that was possible, but went on to say that statistically his chances of getting ran over by a semi truck while standing in the phone booth were much higher so if he was intent on worrying, worry about the semi truck not catching aids.


I'm cautious for certain, but living in fear is debilitating.


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## bsms

On the flip side (particularly for Hondo): My rancher friend told me of an incident 30+ years ago. He was way back in the back country and his truck broke down. Had a 30-40 mile walk ahead of him. As he walked along the dirt road, a guy appeared out of the woods ahead of him. He was an Indian (or native American in current lingo, unless my current lingo is no longer current). Over 6 foot. Long black hair. Heavy muscles. Stripped to the waist. Carrying a large ax. Still 30+ miles from the nearest help. He stared at my friend, and said in a deep voice...

"_My truck is up the hill. Need a ride?_"

:clap:

He was doing some work in the same area, so for the rest of the summer they kept an eye out for each other. When you work a long, long way from help, a friend you can count on is a great thing to have!


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## Hondo

Ok, one story calls for another. 



I was 16 YO hitch hiking to California from Arkansas. About 100 miles from Bakersfield, California I was picked up by two guys in a 49 Mercury. One guy got out for me to sit in the middle in the front seat. Both were sort of dirty and greasy. In the empty space in the dash where the radio should have been there was a large hunting knife.


Then they asked me if I had any money. I had about three dollars on me and a little more in the suitcase. I only told them about the three dollars.


Long story short, they were traveling from Texas to Bakersfield, CA where there was promise of work. Their transmission had went out and they used what money they had plus bartering the radio at a salvage yard. When we stopped for gas they tried to sell the knife to the attendant who did not buy it. They coasted on every downhill and made it to Bakersfield.


I missed part of the trip as I finally got so comfortable with them that I crawled into the back seat and went to sleep.


But I was a bit worried at first.


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## SueC

One of the most important things about good versus horrible behaviour in humans to me is to go out of my way to do three additional positive things for others immediately when I have been at the receiving end of horrible behaviour, or seen someone be at the receiving end of horrible behaviour. That makes a direct difference, both to others, and to me.

I was thinking about my time in Italy as a child, which was most of the school vacations, always to the same neighbourhood. I think it can't be overemphasised what a lifelong difference ordinary people being kind and creative can make to a child growing up in a difficult family.

Down the olive terrace from us lived a couple in their 60s from England. Rob had been gassed in the war and was advised to move to a friendly climate. He painted recreationally - oil paintings of olive trees, hillsides, general landscapes. And I loved art. At home we didn't do any art - I was given colouring-in books to take to my room. I didn't see anyone else doing art, except at kindergarten and later, school. But Rob painted, and it fascinated me. I was looking at his many paintings, and him painting, from before I was in school, and he actually would sit with me at a table while his wife made everyone tea, and draw with me. Interactively! Lots of smiling and laughing. Marjorie grew cherry tomatoes - the first time I saw those was when she offered me some to eat! She also made chutneys and marmalades etc.

Up the hill from us was a German family with a daughter a couple of years older than me, who I spent a bit of time with. She had _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_! Her mother was always nice to me. I remember her saying, "Wow, you have lovely ears - so small and neat!" and her daughter agreed. I wasn't used to hearing compliments, so I treasured that one up, and was happy to be attached to small, neat ears ever after.  It was something to counter frequent comments at home about spaghetti hair, big nose, gapped teeth, slouched posture (hmmm, I wonder why that last one was a childhood feature!! ...so obvious now). One day, Nadia's mother said, "Would you girls like to make wine cream with me?" That was a dessert I'd never heard of! And to be asked, like she actually wanted to spend time with us! And so polite, and smiling, even though I was a child! Those were magic moments, and made me have hope in what I might find in the human race if I went looking. Nadia was clearly used to having a mother who enjoyed her company and did things together with her. We made wine cream, smiling, laughing, chatting, licking the bowl afterwards. Teamwork! As well as humans seeing and liking other humans. I loved that, and always wanted to be like those sorts of people. I think Nadia's mother would be surprised if she knew what a lasting impact her general attitude and that one afternoon making wine cream with us had on me. 

On the third side was another German family with children, but my parents didn't like them - much of it was that they voted social democrat, and my parents didn't like people like that, or me spending time with people like that - and they called the mother of one of my closest primary school buddies in Germany a "red" (but it didn't stop us hanging out, we just spent a lot of time meeting up outdoors or at her place). I also have the feeling that those neighbours didn't like my parents, but they were always kind to me, and invited me in to have cake and to play with the other children. It was harder to do that on the sneak, because of the close proximity, so it didn't happen as often as I would have wanted.

A little further up the road were several Italian families in olive groves, with goats and rabbits and fruit trees and vegetable plots. They were always extra kind to me, and smiled real smiles at me, and were genuinely happy to see me. Italians tend to be besotted with children, like English people tend to be besotted with dogs, on cultural principle. I liked bumping into them, or going to see them if they were working outdoors, to say hello, and they'd always chat and laugh and involve me.

One of the neighbours would test my Italian vocabulary. He'd point, say at a cow, and if I said, "Mucca!" he'd clap and laugh. If I didn't know the word, he'd tell me slowly, I'd repeat, and then he'd clap and smile. These people were naturally good with children, and my little heart leapt at the way they operated!

Down in the village was a lakeside café, and the owner was called Angelo. I always ordered "Cioccolata Calda" (hot chocolate) and he always smiled. When he brought it, it was piled up so high with cream on top and extra grated chocolate that it overflowed, and he'd give me a wink. I had to develop a special technique for spooning the cream off the top without putting downwards pressure on it, so the cup wouldn't overflow into the saucer. And Angelo seemed to pile the cream higher all the time. It wasn't like the standard cream I saw on adult drinks, it was a cream skyscraper. Italians are often like that with children. I was a skinny kid, and everyone wanted to feed me in Italy.

Don't ever underestimate the lasting effects even your ordinary kindness can have on people in difficult situations, and not just children either. It can make a world of difference. I'm acutely aware of that when interacting with other people, even just in the supermarket. I will catch people's eyes and smile, and be friendly, because there's enough pretending each other doesn't exist or doesn't matter in this world already. I am especially polite to people who aren't treated with much politeness in their jobs or in general, etc etc. Lots of opportunites to put a little sparkle in other lives.

One single candle will light up the darkness.


----------



## gottatrot

Whew, had a couple of pretty intense dog days. Meaning, Gilligan the Papillon was acting quite miserable, and I thought it was an indigestion issue because he kept hunching over and having the urge to rush outside. I was awakened from sleep with him panting and needing to go out. I thought I'd give him a day or so to see if things cleared...noticed some strange matter around his hind end, and discovered he'd had an anal gland abscess and rupture. He wasn't real keen about having it all cleaned up and irrigated, but I think he's on the road to healing now. 

Here's some horse psychology:
If I take Hero out alone toward the beach or around the field, he understands he's alone, and settles into things pretty quickly. 
If I take Amore along and put her in the outdoor arena, and then go ride around the field, if Amore pops out of Hero's sight, it's a very concerning (panic-inducing) problem. Hee hee, gotta love horses. 

Today I told Hero I was SO GLAD I have been doing so much to help his stifles feel better. With extreme sarcasm. The boy is in love with his hind legs. For the past couple weeks his favorite thing is to stand up on them or jump up in the air. He's attained a level of fitness, and he doesn't have an "easy" temperament shall we say. 

The barn owner caught me when I arrived at the barn, and told me Hero had wanted out of his pen this morning and had not eaten his senior feed, which normally he loves, so she wanted to let me know. She said he seemed fine, but just in case. When I walked him down to the barn with Amore, he was so mellow I was a little concerned. Very chill, didn't blink at anything. I wondered if maybe there was something going on.

Then we got out to the field, dropped off Amore in the arena, walked until she was out of sight, and I stopped worrying. Hero just loves rearing now, and he was throwing in all the moves he could, taking big divots out of the ground as he cavorted around and told me that Amore had disappeared off the face of the earth. He spooked six feet to the side when I walked him toward a fence, so I circled him around and he did the same spook two more times. 

I thought I'd ride him back along the long side of the field, heading to where we could see Amore again. He kind of forgot that's why he was being a character and we hopped, leaped and jetted around. Included were several times where he sat up on his hind legs and pawed out. Cute. Still being sarcastic. 
But he sits down on his haunches and rears like a fat pony. Sometimes he even curls his hooves in. So it's hard to take it seriously.








It's not like he's panicking, or losing his mind, he's like a naughty pony. Nala's rider thinks he is a pony that got stuck in a horse's body because he is very pony-like, just always "naughty," meaning he's confrontational in a pesky way with other horses, handlers, and just messing around all the time. 

After Hero went leaping around a backwards sideways circle, I got off and had him trot a bit, and then I brought him into the neighborhood and walked him on asphalt for a half mile. Something I've noticed is that he seems lulled by the sound of his own hooves clip-clopping. So we clip-clopped a bit, then I got on and we walked back to where we could see Amore, and then back to the arena gate, and I was on the most chilled out, mellow horse you ever saw.

Still, I thought there might be a little more devil-pony inside. So after unsaddling Hero, I put him in the arena with Amore, loose. When I asked him to trot around, he started a new devilment which was to take off at a gallop from one end of the arena, do a flying leap, and then charge full speed at Amore with snake head/ears pinned. She would give a half hearted kick in the air, he'd veer off, and then he'd circle around to gallop back again. After all that fun, I had some large divots to fill in while the horses rolled, and then they walked calmly next to me back to the barn. 

Hero is really energetic, and a handful. We've had very nice weather for several days and Amore was sproinging around a bit too. I'm good at getting horses feeling well and getting them fit. Then they get even trickier. ******s.


----------



## Hondo

Wow! Hero sounds like he's becoming quite the Rascal


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## SueC

Loved your update, @gottatrot!  Can't help thinking.... birds of a feather... pets and their owners... feisty horse, feisty rider... and they're taking a fair few cues off us... :Angel:


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## Hondo

@SueC Yeah, I've always been a proponent of that idea. UNTIL I got Roman!


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## SueC

If Roman is a typical Kelpie type, he's active, clever, outdoorsy and friendly. Funnily, that's very similar to the impression I had of you! :Angel:

Just don't compare your running speed to his! ;-) We humans never come out well in that comparison...

Apart from that one, how is Roman unlike you? I'll try to think of a few more. You probably don't like raw meat and I don't think you gnaw on bones, but some people do both of these - you know, Steak Tartare, BBQ ribs and that. And I suppose you don't have a tail or four legs, and aren't as hairy as your dog.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, I think the name Rascal was very apropos, even if it was just a random race name.



SueC said:


> Just don't compare your running speed to his! ;-) We humans never come out well in that comparison...


It surprised me when I got my Papillon that he could sprint so fast. Plus keep up with me running over longer distances, easily. The dogs I've had seem to prefer not to jog, but would rather sprint and rest. My Dalmatian could jog on a leash for miles, but if running free he'd always lag behind, sprint ahead, then stop. For a little dog, it seems to tire them faster if they are made to jog on a leash. It's disconcerting though to look around for a tiny 8 lb dog when running at a good speed, only to spot him far ahead, sitting and waiting for me to catch up. 

For some reason Hero reminds me of a big dog. Maybe because I've always had mares, and he's not as pretty and very playful. He's always looking at me with a hound dog expression. When he walks along, he tries to bite his lead or reins like a dog, and prances sideways like a silly puppy.









Without consciously choosing to, I often call him "pup" or "big puppy." It's weird, the nicknames that come out when you're talking to horses. I guess because I keep a dialogue going a lot of the time, as I'm moving around, it's just habit. But I don't think about what I'm saying, yet around Amore it's things like "move over you silly," or "little goof," stuff like that. With Hero it's "big lug," or "doofus." Neither of my horses really acts like an adult. Halla did, she was very serious. These two are goof balls.

It's strange, but once in life I had a panic attack, when walking into the vet to pick up some medicine. The last time I'd been in there, my dog had almost died. This time, I was standing in line, very chill, when I noticed my heart was accelerating and I was sweating, feeling very odd. I realized it was a panic attack, and was able to slow my heart and calm down. I think some smell must have triggered it, after the trauma that had happened previously. 

Anyway, my teeth have been hurting for a couple weeks. Since it's all my teeth, and I figured out my jaw is also sore, I must be clenching my jaw or grinding my teeth when asleep. It made me realize the only other time I've had this problem was exactly a year ago, which was when Halla foundered and after a few days of that stress my jaw began aching until I could almost not open my mouth. I'm wondering if somehow my subconscious has related this time of year to that stress, because I'm not having other stress right now, and feeling well and happy. It's interesting how our subconscious can have such strong physical effects on our bodies.


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, Hero is so fortunate to have you for his owner. Who else would understand him so well? I think you are 100% correct in your assessment that he now feels so good in his hind end that he wants to test it out a whole bunch and have fun using his hind legs rather than dreading it.

Because I did jousting shows, I taught all my horses to rear. When I got Shadow for the joust show, I began teaching her to rear, but she just didn't want to do it. I worked with her *every*single* day for a year and a half, giving her the cue, asking her to rear. For months, she just about had it. She'd get very light in the front and rise up, but the tips of her toes stayed on the ground. 

One day, my PA friend was spending the weekend with me, and, as usual, I cued Shadow to rear . . . and suddenly she went straight up, nice and high--beautiful rear! I was so excited, praised her to the sky, lavished her with treats. And then, she reared and reared and reared, all on her own. "I've got it! I did it, Mom! I know what you want! This is it, isn't it????"

My PA friend was completely upset, demanding that I punish her, certain that she was going to rear every time I rode her. (She also taught her horses to rear). But I was certain that Shadow was just happy that she finally got what I wanted. I was right. She never again reared without the command.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'm good at getting horses feeling well and getting them fit. Then they get even trickier. ******s.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Such a true statement!!


Glad your pup is doing better - anal gland ruptures are painful and messy. Hopefully you didn't have to clip off too much of his pretty papillion coat! I am glad Hero is also feeling better, but hope he finds less exciting ways to show his enthusiasm.


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## egrogan

I am the same way with nicknames. All of the girls have their proper name, their nickname, and the nickname(s) for their nickname 

Tara’s Isabel: Izzy, Izzy Bean, Izzy B, Bean
Windfield Effervescence: Fizz, Fizzy, Fizzle
Juneson’s Image: Maggie, Maggie Moo, Moose, Moosie

I think I have a diminutive thing with needing a “y” or “ie” sound on name :wink: But all the nicknames just sort of appeared over time from my constant chatting with them out in the field.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Now I'm thinking I may have had a panic attack when getting Hondo's feet x-rayed. I had mentioned how much Hondo was sweating even though he was acting calm. We were in a completely closed room with carpet and no windows.


Then after I saw the x-rays I felt myself sweating so much my back felt completely wet. Didn't check my heart rate. I did mention to the vet and tech that now I was sweating as much as Hondo.


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## SueC

OK, nicknames.

Sunsmart: Smartie, Smartibartfast (anyone read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? - had an interesting character called Slartibartfast...), Oy-What-Do-You-Think-You-Are-Doing?

Classic Julian: Julian, J, Mr J.

Romeo (registered as Durham Town): Romeo, Mr R, Mr _Wohohohoho!_ because that's the sound he makes when his food is coming

Chasseur: Mr Buzzy (because he makes little buzzing snorts almost continuously, but they get louder and longer if he's puzzled or inquisitive or stopping for a chat)

The donkeys...

Don Quixote: Peppi, Mr Rotundo, The Whale; if lying down, The Beached Whale

Mary Lou: The Yak, Ms Shagpile

Sparkle: The name is like a nickname already, but often she's Adorable, or Sweetie

Nelly: Ms Nelly Donkey

Benjamin: Mr Benjamin Donkey


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## SueC

PS: Brett reminded me that he often calls Don Quixote "Rotundo the Wonder Donkey"... I asked him how he came up with that one, and he says that it makes him sound like a circus act. :rofl:

Rotundo the Wonder Donkey, in foreground:




With his muzzle during spring flush, so he doesn't become The Exploding Wonder Donkey:




With Romeo, as The Beached Whale:




The Yak, or Mary Lou, Her Yakness:


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## DanteDressageNerd

Hero looks cute and happy in the video  he looks more free as he goes, it's a beautiful landscape. It really looks amazing there! He sounds like a special cadet as well, always problem solving with special horses but I think they are also the most rewarding 

With psychopaths, if you're referring to people. You dont have a clue they're a psychopath for a very long time. They can feel so genuine and warm, they can be really funny and charming and considerate. They'll even listen and you think how could I ever get so lucky to have such an amazing person in my life? They'll get along with animals and kids, I've been in relationship with psychopaths. And you dont really realize how fake they are until later when things just dont add up. Most of the time they're not going to "hurt" you but it wouldn't cause them any pain to hurt you. If they killed you in your sleep, they wouldn't feel anything as long as there were no consequences. They use people to try to feel something or to escape boredom or as manipulation pieces. My exs liked to play games and lure you into a false sense of safety and trust and then they'd slowly break you down until you've lost all sense of self and have no confidence. It is so subtle, you dont even notice it until they start taking a step too far and you're like omg what have I gotten myself into. You rationalize the behavior, make excuses and then you wake up. It's one of the most painful and shocking experiences in life. Really shakes your self confidence and ability to judge people. They are so good at being someone they're not. The best actors. And it hurts. 

You've probably met one and not known it. They dont come with fangs and claws.


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## Hondo

Holy cow! Where did this discussion of psychopaths come from? I have spent 4 or 5 hours the last two days reading about the similarities and differences of narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and autistic narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths.


It all started a few months ago after reading The Narcissist You Know and finally progressed. It is so strange that this topic was mentioned at the time when I've been almost entirely engulfed in it for quite a spell.


As a result I've been putting in 10 hour days building fence and setting up to relocate to another ranch.


@DanteDressageNerd 's posted experience is a carbon copy of what I've been reading and to an extent have experienced.


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## gottatrot

^^^Interesting. 
I take it things are not going well, and that is the reason for the move? 
@SueC, Amore is shaped just like Rotundo the Wonder donkey when she lays down. She's not actually obese, just shaped like that.
@DanteDressageNerd, I was interested to read about the difference in Danes vs Americans on your journal. We get a little tired of the culture in our area, I was actually looking into moving to New Zealand recently but it's tricky because if you move there to work, you have to meet age requirements, which means DH is getting close to being too old. But we have 2 cats and a dog over 11, and Amore will be 29 this year. It would be extremely expensive to move both horses and the three small pets overseas, and also the stress at their age would be worrisome. But if we wait until the four oldies pass away, we might not be able to get Visas. You can't retire to NZ unless you have quite a 
bit of money. So we'll probably stay here and just travel more, but are considering finding another area for our home base. It's getting a bit crowded here for our taste, which always magnifies any issues in a community. 

The polar vortex finally gave us a day with some snow on the ground for a few hours. We'd been having a very mild winter, and some new transplants from California were saying they thought it was supposed to rain a lot more. Well, it normally does.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> ^^^Interesting.
> I take it things are not going well, and that is the reason for the move?



Things were not going well a long time ago. But as @DanteDressageNerd detailed, things progress so slowly and one makes so many excuses that it sometimes takes a wake up call to snap out of it.


So yes, that is the reason for the move. I have been actively looking for somewhere to move for a few months now. As it turns out, I'll be moving only about 3 miles down the road. The ranch borders a National Forest for 1.25 miles on the East side. The forest is 1.25 million acres so there'll be plenty of riding opportunities still. Much more than I'll ever use.


I'll be staying only about 1/4 mile from the National Forest. This offers to be the end of my travels. I'm just feeling as though I don't have another move left in me.


New Zealand? Wow! That would be quite the move.


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## bsms

Speaking of moving...we may put our planned move on hold for a couple of years. The VA tells me they will cover the cost of my going back to school if I do it soon. I've got my BS in biology (very outdated, worthless for work) and an MBA (equally worthless IMHO). I just gave two weeks notice to a large company I was doing some work for...tired of 25 year old MBAs and Marketing geniuses setting policy in a business they have never worked in with a CEO who has never met a real customer in his life. 

Going back to school on someone else's $ would be a bit of a scam IMO unless it is tied to getting a job afterward. Friends have offered some suggestions that might lead to seasonal employment, possibly working for myself...but school is an easier option to pursue if near a university.

Our youngest daughter is almost out of boot camp. She has a year of follow-on training ahead but then might be sent to Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson. I personally doubt it...but it MIGHT happen. And my wife doesn't want to move 4 hours north of Tucson while there is a chance my daughter might end up stationed less than a hour from us. Daughter's letters say she misses the Sonoran Desert so much that she may hug the first saguaro she meets!

Lots of people see this and think wasteland. My daughter, like me, sees beauty:








So...we may put things on hold for a year. In the abstract, moving sounds great. But taking a year to explore options might be prudent.


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## knightrider

@Hondo, if you haven't yet, try reading People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck. It covers similar ideas, and is extremely well-written.
@gottatrot, I recently spent a weekend with Alycia Burton, the tackless free rider, who is from New Zealand. She said it is very expensive to live there and the people are not accepting. She didn't have much positive to say about New Zealand. 
She is hoping to emigrate to the U.S., possibly Florida or Colorado, someplace where horses are important.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, that's good you're getting out of a bad situation. Also it sounds like the new place offers some great features. 
@bsms, I'll be interested to hear what you end up doing. Many of my coworkers are grueling their way through school and it doesn't make me want to. :smile:
@knightrider, that's so neat you were able to meet Alycia Burton. Was it at a riding clinic? Her videos are amazing. Thanks for the info about NZ. There are places that we've been that seemed attractive but with a very different view of animals and horses. In Ireland when I asked about horse care at a riding facility, the guide thought my questions were unusual. She told me horse care around Ireland was often sub par. 

We also came across a cat that was very thin and had a skin condition, and were told it was a stray so no one would be taking care of it. So we asked it we could get it to an animal shelter, and were told there were no available services to take in strays or animals in poor condition. 

It would be difficult to move somewhere and make a very low wage for nursing, such as in NZ. In the UK also, nurses don't make much. Not being political, but with more socialized systems things turn out oddly sometimes. Such as in NZ dentists can make more than surgeons (I currently make more than some surgeons in NZ), because dental care is not covered by their health system. It doesn't seem right to me that someone who deals with your cavities should make more than someone who is slicing around your arteries or saving your life. I believe doctors and surgeons should earn quite a lot of money for all the education, stress and responsibility they take on. 

Nurses also should make more than someone putting windows into your house, because it is a job that is physically and mentally demanding. We work holidays, weekends, and nights. 
We also are subjected to criticism routinely, as it is one job where multiple people come behind you and critique everything you did. We have speech therapists critiquing if we fed patients safely, physical therapists telling us we told someone to use their walker wrong, doctors saying we didn't give the medication as they specified, nurses saying we didn't medicate properly or did too much or little of something. Then the managers evaluate all of these things too. All of the criticism must be kept down to a "below the radar" level or people start being seen as poor performers and their job is in jeopardy. Also every day we are a moment away from one bad mistake that could get us sued or have our livelihood taken away. 

There are few places we would want to move, because we feel we need mountains, forest, water and beaches, along with a mild climate and few people. Those are things mostly found in the Pacific NW. Down the coast there are some places that have lower populations, due to being farther from shopping and industry, which makes it difficult for people to live there. One place I am looking at has a horse boarding facility where you can ride out in one direction and go onto a 6 mile beach where no cars are allowed and there are very few people. If you ride the other way, you are on an official horse trail that is 14 miles of trail up into the forest and mountains. Hmmm....that is one thing I miss at my barn, the easy access to mountain trails.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Hondo- it was mentioned in a paragraph on pg 270 I think?

I've also had ex friends that were narcissists. I am antisocial behavior magnet...actually I'm a magnet for people with emotional disturbances, curse the empathic vibes. I think working for the narcissist conditioned me quite a bit to dating a sociopath and a psychopath (obviously not at the same time). 

Very important. When dealing with a psychopath DO NOT LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU KNOW. And try to avoid ****ing them off. Can be hard but if youre not close, they generally wont take out their frustration or anger on you. They are NOT reasonable, they will work every way to justify their actions, YOU are always wrong. They are ALWAYS right. No empathy, everything is about them. They are the best liars and they feel no remorse. One of the scariest things in the world is when you see that mask come off and you see who they really are. It's chilling. I cant explain it but when you look into their eyes and see a flash of who they really are. It's so cold, so calculated, and it's like the flow of energy just stops and it's really really scary. They also can lie to your face about cheating without any kind of remorse and you believe the lie because they feel no shame, guilt and can tell you they've been true and it feels genuine and that you're being the crazy one. Makes it almost impossible to trust your gut instinct, no matter how sensitive or aware you may be. It really humbles you and makes you realize, you dont really know anything and you never really know someone. So then DEEP trust issues set in and you're never really secure with anyone in romance. 

It's left me with a lot of emotional damage, I have a REALLY hard time in relationships. Trust is REALLY REALLY hard for me and I'm SUPER skeptical and guarded. Little things will put me on guard and make me suspicious and watchful. I dont think it is possible for me to feel secure in a relationship ever again. Hard to figure out what's my baggage vs what's real. I try not to take it out on my bf now and I dont think he gets that certain things trigger my alarms and can make me really upset. I cant control it, it's the irrational things that are so deeply routed it's almost primitive. It REALLY changes something deep inside your psyche, makes relationships SO SO hard and you try not to take it out on your partner but then you end up feeling paranoid and worried. Because of prior experience, it changes your internal deep reactions, no matter how you reason with yourself or try to convince yourself youre being irrational. Not sure if that helps with understanding psychopaths and the damage they leave in their wake. The biggest thing I think they rob is security and peace of mind. After being that close to someone like that and REALLY in your heart or hearts believing they were the person they pretended to be for a long while, it's impossible to trust anyone because you just dont know.They're good at what they do and people always think they'll know a psychopath when they meet one and sometimes you do but the good ones blend in so well. They seem genuine and not over the top charming or too perfect. I dont know how to describe it but it really affects something deep inside and you never look at the world the same way. It makes you numb in some ways and in other ways 10x more perceptive and sensitive and on guard prepared for the worst because deep down you cant trust anyone or be secure. For example I've told people I dont know if I ever want to get married because I'm so afraid that in 20yrs they'll roll over one morning and say I just dont love you anymore and I worry about cheating and lying and never really mattering or it all being a farce or being a temporary piece of passing entertainment who never really mattered and was just a distraction from boredom. BF now says it concerns him that I'm so negative and pessimistic but I look at it as reality.

Again not sure if that helps but trying to explain psychopaths and sociopaths do a lot of damage. I have been in relationships with both. You dont really recover from it. Might think so logically and intellectually but internally, deep inside not at all. I think the saying ignorance is bliss is so true and knowledge may be honest but there is no peace. 

gottatrot- As for moving countries, most places in Europe are REALLY expensive for cost of living. Denmark the cost of living is very high. Maybe can move within the US to a more remote location?

I lived in the Pacific NW for 17yrs, it seems to have changed an awful lot! Nursing is not a profession I could ever do, it seems like a lot of whining and little respect for a lot of sacrifices and a lot of work but must be a pay off in there too and reason for passion.


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## Hondo

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I am antisocial behavior magnet...actually I'm a magnet for people with emotional disturbances, curse the empathic vibes.



My interactions have been at a distance, but even though, I can feel myself becoming less trustful. I've always had the attitude, "Trust everyone until they prove untrustworthy" , and even then tend to believe they didn't mean it and will change. Yes, curse the empathic vibes. I think the social predator is always looking for that.


With my more distant interactions, I can only imagine what it might be like to find oneself in a committed relationship with a social predator.


I'm seeing some websites discussing recovery and also recovery groups. Don't know if you've already explored that direction. Sounds like you've hopefully found a supportive BF. I would think there would also be advice around for how to best help a recovering victim that could help your BF in dealing with and supporting your eventual recovery that you will eventually achieve.


The awareness you express will, I would think, go a long way toward your full recovery. But full recovery should not, again I would think, not include a return to being gullible.


Just a little more discretion to the showing or display of empathetic feelings.


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, Alycia Burton is coming to Oregon in June. The tickets are only $15, for a two night show, and it is SO worth it. The show was just wonderful. Alycia's personality is so amazing, and it comes through so clearly in her shows. I was very fortunate that Alycia came to Florida in the winter. The people at the barn where she was, encouraged her to take a break there for about 5 weeks. During that time, she hosted lessons, clinics, and trail rides. Whatever activity she was involved in, she gave it 100%. When we were just camping out, hanging around, she hung with us and spent hours just shooting the breeze with the folks who were there. Although you wouldn't get that experience just going to a show, you still would get a feel for her and who she is.
https://www.freeridingnz.com/product-category/usa-tour-tickets/
@DanteDressageNerd, I just finished reading the most wonderful two historical fiction books about a mother who was a sociopath and the effects on her daughter. It takes place in England in WWII. They are extremely well written, have lots of horses (why I checked out the books), and you would love them. I know you have no time for pleasure reading, but you would so identify with this damaged child. Kimberly Brubaker Bradley: _The War That Saved My Life_ and_ The War I Finally Won_
[/I]


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## SueC

Hello all! :wave: Just a quick check-in. Lucky duck @knightrider, love Alycia Burton!  Her Yakness had a haircut yesterday - I borrowed some old-fashioned sheep shears off a neighbour, like the colonial people used. And she had a bath. I've posted photos on my journal. And I've worked out why Hero is rearing lately. He has a library card and is sneaking out to read astrophysics when @gottatrot isn't looking. He's an excitable TB and the subject matter is tickling him. He's worked out he's actually much faster than he thought... (this is from another thread ;-))...

@Hondo, best wishes with moving.

By the way, in my own experience, a really good tactic with sociopaths and psychopaths is to laugh at them, and get on with your life at a safe distance. It's more effective than anything else I've tried, and it increases my endorphin levels. Also, the sociopaths have no idea what to do about it - they're so used to having the power. Mock the devil, and he will flee from thee, etc.

If the people concerned have a penchant for violence and revenge, one can leave with no forwarding address as well. You're usually safe when they've found their next target, which they will, or when they fall down a mineshaft because there is a God.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, thanks for the info about Alycia Burton. Hopefully I can go to her clinic. It looks great. I just read about her husband dying in an accident recently. Very tragic.
@SueC, very funny about Hero. I think you might be right.

It's been so cold here for us, today it was 35 F (2 C) during the day. I was surprised when I went to the barn because there was snow on the ground, and it hadn't snowed at our house 5 miles away. Same elevation too. 

I haven't been out riding, because I haven't been able to get past the idea of feeling that bitter wind blasting into me on the beach. When you know the horse is not going to enjoy it, you're not going to enjoy it, and it's going to be a real chore, it's difficult to get up the gumption.

So I've been taking the horses on a lot of walks. It seems important for Amore to have some extra movement in this weather, with her arthritis. She seems do be doing very well this winter, but is obviously a bit creaky. 

Although it's been dry, the wind hasn't let up so I've kept the rain sheets on the horses as windbreakers for a few days. There are a couple of horses whose owners don't blanket, and today they looked like extreme puff balls. 








Both horses are on the 5+ side weight wise, and seem fine. 

My two were not puffy when I took their blankets off, and they didn't puff their coats out as we walked, probably because we were staying warm with the exercise. There's this idea out there that horses with blankets can't puff their hair out for warmth. If it's cold enough, I've seen puffy horses under the blankets. I'm guessing this idea comes from situations like I saw today, where the horses wearing blankets don't puff their coats up, just because they're not as cold. I don't know about you, but I can certainly get goose bumps and raise the hair on my arms even with a heavy coat on. 

We went around the property/fields about a half mile, and then walked the neighborhood. It's funny because around the property, Amore is very relaxed and calm, and Hero is looking for things to pop out of the bushes, hopping around and such. Once we exit the fields and cross over into the neighborhood, Amore is looky and snorty while Hero becomes completely relaxed. She feels that unnatural things like asphalt, buildings and mail boxes are worrisome, having been born and raised to mid-life on a secluded property with pasture and woods. Hero feels that those human made things are trustworthy, having been raised as a racehorse around stable and track. He finds the fields and woods more unpredictable. 

Something that I've found is that it's always profitable for the horses, regardless of what you spend time doing with them. I think longer walks are beneficial for Hero's rehab of his body, and it was interesting to read on @DanteDressageNerd's journal about how she rehabbed EPM horses and that it took a very long time for their bodies to improve. I believe I've been learning this is true, and today I had Hero out with his blanket off, and the barn owner came by, and she exclaimed twice that he was looking so good now. It made me feel that we are making some real progress. 

But I still notice small issues, and I am hopeful that over time this can continue to improve, but I believe the way he used his body for who knows how long is requiring a "full reset." He developed a lot of muscle memory and neuro pathways for standing kind of propped up, and dragging his hind hooves while barely lifting the hinds, and crossing them in toward the centerline. It's so tricky because everything has to adjust, with the hooves adapting to new weight bearing areas, and every muscle that was tight from compensating from jaw to hock has to gradually loosen and adapt back to proper movement. 
We have to keep practicing good movement over and over until his brain and body can be helped back toward baseline. 

Something that makes me sad is that some of the really bad hoof care practices at the track are contributing heavily to the issues these horses have. Combine some less than ideal genetics with poor hoof care, and you set a horse up for a disaster that can plague a horse for years or their entire life. 

Another good thing about all the walking is getting Hero used to all the types of leading I expect a horse to be able to do. With short walks, a horse sometimes doesn't get past the excitement and learn to settle. On a long walk with two horses we practice having the two horses follow each other single file, on long leads through narrow spots. We practice having both of them on one side of me, turning them toward each other and away, and all of these things are good practice for listening to me and being watchful.


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, just want to encourage you with a happy story.



> But I still notice small issues, and I am hopeful that over time this can continue to improve, but I believe the way he used his body for who knows how long is requiring a "full reset." He developed a lot of muscle memory and neuro pathways for standing kind of propped up, and dragging his hind hooves while barely lifting the hinds, and crossing them in toward the centerline. It's so tricky because everything has to adjust, with the hooves adapting to new weight bearing areas, and every muscle that was tight from compensating from jaw to hock has to gradually loosen and adapt back to proper movement.
> We have to keep practicing good movement over and over until his brain and body can be helped back toward baseline.


I remember that you followed Isabeau's journal. I took her camping for 3 days with Acicate. I couldn't have asked for a sweeter, calmer horse. She did everything I wanted her to do. I bought her in July 2013. It has taken 5 1/2 years to get her where she is now. I never would have dreamed it would be so hard or take so long when I bought her. But it was so worth it. I am so thrilled with what a terrific horse she has turned out to be. I think in 5 years, you will say the same about Hero.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> I am so thrilled with what a terrific horse she has turned out to be. I think in 5 years, you will say the same about Hero.


This post was on Wednesday, and was timed very well since later that day I had reason to need that encouragement. 

It was my fault, I did several things wrong. We planned to take a little trip down the coast, and I'd just worked several nights, so needed to get Hero out for exercise. I took Hero down to the beach, and he hadn't been down there for a couple weeks due to bad weather and other circumstances. So I knew he would be and extra handful. Still, I took a phone call on the way to the dunes, and when he wouldn't go down I got off to lead him.

Going down was treacherous, and I realized I was distracted by the phone call so hung up and tried to focus. It was rough because the sand had drifted in to where Hero was sinking down to above his knees, almost his chest. By the time we got to the hard sand he was very upset, and almost fell down once, but I was relieved we had made it.

While he was still upset, I again began thinking about the phone call and also was looking around for a log to mount from. Then noticed a car was coming toward us. Next thing I knew, Hero spooked, spun and I got kicked. This was completely my fault, he should never have had the rein length to spin between me enough to get his hind end toward me. That was a handling error. He was not kicking me, but doing his usual kick out he does when he freaks. 

First I let him have it (mistake or not), meanwhile knowing this was not a good situation. He had kicked just below my outer right knee, and blew the knee sideways. It wasn't on quite straight, and wasn't tracking. My first thought was that DH and I weren't going to make our trip down the coast, and my second thought was that no one was going to be able to get this horse walked home for me. The only person I knew who could was Nala's rider, and I had no idea where she was - plus it was getting dark in a few minutes.

I knew I had to get Hero back, so I bent my knee a few times, quite hard and managed to track it back into place. He was hopping and dancing, and I grabbed a handful of his neck in my right hand, and the bit in my left hand and told him the usual was not going to fly. Probably the car driving by thought I was abusing him, but with the harsh attitude I was able to subdue him. Then, leaning hard against him, I kept his speed down to a slow crawl so I could hobble along. 

So I wondered why I didn't force him to behave all the time like this? Necessity and all of that. With my strength of will, I somehow scared him to the point where his eyes were rolling, but he wasn't panicking enough to take off, and if he started going up I pinched that roll of mane and neck and pinched the bit together, and yelled, and so he minced along meekly with me. Repeated this many, many times, and I got him home. It was quite the feat.

At home I decided the main injury was to my MCL, and all the weight bearing I'd been doing meant it wasn't torn clean through, maybe a minor tear or just sprained from getting torqued so hard. So we went on our trip also, and I hobbled around fine, although after sitting 4 hrs in the truck on the drive I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to get out. After the knee stiffens during sleep or rest, it's harder to get it moving again. It is getting better each day, and I'm walking on it fairly well now. It might take a couple weeks to heal, but I was able to get out and lunge Hero yesterday, and walk the horses up and down the hill.

I'm glad it isn't much worse, although I've worried about Murphy's Law since we've been complaining at work about our employers plan to take away our extended illness leave banks next year. The joke is that everyone will need to find a way to use it up before then, and I was thinking, "No, I'll give it up! I was kidding!"


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## knightrider

Oh, that's terrible. I was wondering why we hadn't heard from you. I am so so sorry.


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## Knave

I am so sorry!


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## SueC

Dear @gottatrot, I'm so sorry you got injured, and I hope you heal fast... :hug: Have you had it checked out?

You might now have a(nother?) "weather forecaster." My foot healed up 100% functionally, and recovery was pretty quick, but I can tell when a cold front is approaching just from "noises" my foot makes to my brain at such times. Sort of like that knee with which I bent a steel gate in a horse riding accident in my early 20s. When I grow up, I'm going to be a meteorologist.

Very best wishes for your recovery. If I had a space-time dumbwaiter, I'd send you a casserole and some home baking.

:tardis:


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Dear @gottatrot, I'm so sorry you got injured, and I hope you heal fast... :hug: Have you had it checked out?


Thanks all for the sympathies, so nice. I'd definitely take a casserole through the space/time warp, any day, might even fake an injury for one.

My decisions about having things checked out relate to what the injury is, and what would they do about it. I know there are no fractures, my knee has full range of motion now that I reduced it, and the only tenderness is along the MCL. Even full MCL tears are rarely treated surgically, and xrays don't help, so you basically need an MRI. An MRI to tell me to follow the usual rehab for an MCL injury seems excessive to me. Probably an ortho doc would just recommend the usual rehab anyway and skip the MRI unless things didn't seem to heal up. I have some trust in my super strong quad muscles, and strong ligaments from many years of running. 

I know most likely the MCL was only sprained from over stretching when the knee was dislocated. Since it was put back so quickly, it didn't even swell up much. FYI, if you're going to put back something that is dislocated, the best bet is to do it very quickly while you're still full of fresh adrenaline and haven't had much pain set in yet. I'm hoping this is an overstretched ligament only, which can mean full recovery in a week or so. I will consider myself very fortunate to get off so lightly for my mistake.

I wore an ACE wrap for a couple days, but it's off now. My preference is to not take any pills, but to let any discomfort tell me what movement is OK and what should be avoided. I think we've discussed this with horses too. DH and I were both saying how pain is a good friend, because it helps us know when and where we are injured. I'm taking some things I learned from @SueC about getting extra protein and vitamins for healing.

So far I have two weather forecasters - my little toe that Amore stepped on once and broke tells me when it's getting colder outside, and so does my middle finger I sprained playing volleyball in high school.


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## SueC

It's great to know that there is nothing else troubling your knee and that recovery is already underway. Ouch, dislocating your knee and putting it back yourself, but infinitely preferable to waiting for someone else to do it, because with any wait comes more pain, and more swelling. I'll keep that tip about the adrenaline in mind in case I ever do anything like that!

It seems you have good-quality ligaments, despite your advanced age. ;-) How excellent that things were elastic enough not to tear through. It goes to show that an active life and good nutrition go a long way for keeping our bodies resilient.

I damaged knee joint cartilage once when crewing on a colleague's boat in my late 20s. We were tacking, and the deck came up rapidly as I was hyperflexing my knee coming down to resume sitting over the edge of the boat with the others. Crunch and ouch, and a wee bit lame. I also knew what it was and didn't feel the need to confirm it if rehab looked the same anyway. The only thing I didn't know is if I had a floater of chipped cartilage in the synovial fluid, but that would have made itself known I think. In any case, while it took time to heal, and I had to be careful not to hyperflex my knee too far for a year or two, I was "paddock sound" pretty quickly, and could resume my standard walking. I did also have to avoid stressing my knee too much in the standard flexed positions, e.g. climbing up large trail steps when hiking - I used my other knee for those movements for a while. It's interesting how the body will tell you how far you can push an injury without doing more damage, in situations like that. I think it actually has a safety margin, and is a bit conservative about it, but recovery went just fine listening to my body, with that and with the foot fractures last year.

Oh, and remember Bethanie Mattek-Sands, who dislocated her knee so badly at Wimbledon 2017 that she ruptured her patellar tendon? Lucky for her, it broke at the bone, not in the tendon itself, and was relatively easy to surgically re-insert. She rehabbed fine, was playing in 2018, and even won the Mixed Doubles Trophy with Jamie Murray at the 2018 US Open.


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## Hondo

I just knew it and was beginning to worry.. Scary to think about how many ways it could have been worse. Super glad it wasn't.


I came close to getting kicked by Hondo a few months ago. Super dumb of me. 



It was dark but moonlight and I was going out to check on him for some reason and had a super bright hand held spot light which was not on. Just as I came up behind him there was something I wanted to see and triggered the spot light on. I was still about 6-8 feet from him. He double barreled big and took off, but then stopped turning to say, "oh, it's just you".


Had I been right up behind him, he'd of plastered me. I'd never have done what I did with any other horse but when one knows a horse so well, I think it is easy to become a little too assuming and careless maybe.


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## Knave

My oldest dislocated her wrist this basketball season and put it back in. She tends to dislocate fingers there too. I didn’t believe her until I actually saw. Ick. I know I should have taken her in, but she begged me not to because she didn’t want to miss any of her season. So, she wrapped it for a week or so and continued on. Her best friend dislocated her hip and ribs this season! It was a rough one. Maybe it’s the moon. 

I really am so sorry that happened. Hero will work out. It seems to me that we usually go through a difficult time with each of our horses.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Had I been right up behind him, he'd of plastered me. I'd never have done what I did with any other horse but when one knows a horse so well, I think it is easy to become a little too assuming and careless maybe.


Oh man, that was a close one. It's definitely easy to become too complacent, and even if we know a horse is dangerous, our bodies are very good at getting used to even dangerous behavior, and not reacting appropriately. 
@Knave, your daughter is tough. I think it's great when kids love sports so much and don't want to miss any games. I've had some in the ER and it's sad for them but also kind of cute when they're overly optimistic about how fast they will be back doing their sport. The xray will show a complete fracture of the leg, and they'll be asking if they'll be running on it by Saturday's track meet. 

Well, I'm like that too, wondering how soon I'll be running on my leg and riding. Last night at work I was surreptitiously trying my chair out like a saddle and seeing how much torque it would put on my knee to have my feet in stirrups. Then I was disappointed today to wake up and realize it still hurts some. Maybe it will be healed tomorrow? LOL.


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## Knave

It is nice when they love something that much! I guess we understand with our horses. I have fun watching her try and train her body like I train a horse’s. She was the slowest girl on the court two years ago. 

She worked sprints all summer. Leg muscles she worked the school year. This year no one could beat her down a court! I seriously had no idea you could train your body out of something like that. She had an old injury to her knee, which had created a sort of funny run. Not this year! If only we were all so determined.

I know you are though! I’m sure the knee will be up to riding in no time.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, maybe you need to drive your horses in a cart for a while until your knee recovers! :Angel:


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## gottatrot

Ha ha, not Amore, or I'd have to add a new story to your Imaginary Day from Hell thread. And I can imagine what Hero would do to a cart with his compulsive kick back whenever he is insecure about his stifles.

Maybe if I had a "pleasure" horse. 

Anyway, I've tripled my walking speed over the last day, and my knee is tolerating some side to side movement and resisting gravity better and better. I read possibly 3 weeks recovery for a knee that was off track, but it seems to be recovering faster than that. It's a real benefit to go to work, because I can ice off and on throughout the shift. My co-worker was nice enough on Sunday to take the patient farther down the hall, and to fetch some things that required a far walk. Tonight I'm only grade 2 lame, almost grade 1. Sunday I was grade 3.
Grading Lameness


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## SueC

I see that @gottatrot understood the joke! 

Good to hear you're on the mend!


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## gottatrot

Thursday, I took the horses for a walk. 
Yesterday, I walked a mile on the treadmill at a 17 minute/mile pace and jogged a couple minutes. That was pushing my knee a little, but everything was the same today so I rode Hero for about 20 minutes. Since I keep my knee in good alignment, it felt fine. I just was careful to land on my good leg when getting off. It is helpful that the injured one is the non-mounting knee.

Some interesting things have come up with this whole situation. When I took the horses for a walk on Thursday, Hero was super docile, which he has been ever since the incident where he kicked me just over a week ago. I was careful to keep him close, being more cautious about the "spin and kick" spook now that I know he has that maneuver. So here I was with this very careful TB maneuvering everywhere I asked him to very nicely. And then I had Amore, who was jitterbugging around and she was the one that gave my arm a workout. She kept trying to dive for grass as we walked.

After we'd been walking about twenty minutes, Hero was not paying as much attention and opened his mouth (maybe habitually) and lowered it toward my arm. I felt the movement, turned, and his head came up and he ran backward five steps. He was like, "Oh man, I messed up, please don't hurt me!" Which was a quite drastic reaction compared to normal.

Now you should know that I probably have never gone past a level 6/10 when responding to anything Hero has done, whether it was biting or kicking out, etc. He'd seem convinced for the moment to not act up, but would resume the behavior in the future. When I had to keep him in line after he kicked me, I'll say I was at a 8/10 with my response. Which means I didn't do more than whack him lightly with the reins' end, but I was motivated enough that my body language was much more aggressive than usual. My voice was loud, my muscles tense, and I was keeping a hard stare on him, verbally harsh if he even took a wrong step. 

So apparently, even though I thought I was being convincing in the past, and doing what I could to deter his behaviors, it seems that he was still perceiving that we were having a game and not that I was really in charge of him. I'm not one to be a "boss," and I'm afraid when Foxhunter recently wrote in her journal about a woman who was a good horseman but did not insist on the best behavior in her horses, I thought perhaps I could identify.

To be fair, I'm not super permissive, like Nala's rider is. She really fits the bill of the character Foxhunter was describing, and thankfully she has a very good hearted horse who is only a little mischievous, but she essentially does not correct anything. Nala has been known to break snaps on halters just for fun, and I mean she carefully stands up and tests the pressure until the metal breaks, and then gleefully runs off to graze, and has no reprimand. So I'll say I'm not quite that bad. But my default is to be "nice," and also quite mellow, so it takes a lot of energy to get myself in a very assertive posture like I was the other day.

But we are given individual horses so we can learn, and although Halla was not one that could be cowed, she did not need to be. She was a willing participant and since she enjoyed our activities, she wanted to work with me. She would go along with it when I asked her not to buck, or gallop off, if I had the right tool in hand. But I did not need to have more than confidence for her to "respect" (I use that word carefully) my ideas. 

Again as an excuse, but I have not wanted to be too harsh on Hero unfairly, until I understood him well. I've giving him some leeway with body issues, and I always err on the side of not making a horse fearful or overwhelmed with handling. I've been thoughtful/skeptical about the idea that others have shared, that if you create a forceful enough situation with a horse, they will stop certain behaviors and work well for you after that. I have seen it work, and have seen people who scared horses and made things much worse. 

I'd say that most horses I've known that were hotter and nervous, reactive types are more likely to get more nervous and fearful if you lay things on too strong. It's finding the right level that is important. 

But here I am with this horse, and since our incident last week he has been very carefully well behaved, and watching me to see what I am going to do about his behaviors. I've been consciously responding to his behaviors at a level a couple notches above what I normally do, and this seems to be important for him. 

I won't say he is "thick-headed," but I'll guess he's been through a lot of tougher handling which has perhaps desensitized him to the point where he doesn't really believe in or place importance on corrections that are below a certain level. It seems that what I saw as him being unable to control, due to energy or body issues was actually him not realizing he should put any effort into controlling, because he did not understand my lower level corrections (which would be very harsh to most Arabs!) were actually meant to dissuade him. 

I'm thinking, Oh, great. Now I'm going to be seen as one of those people who always is being too harsh with horses. Yet since he is behaving much better at the moment, perhaps I'll not need to correct him very often. I'm wrapping my mind around this....but it does make sense. I've known horses that thought a quiet "Uh uh" was terrifying, so it makes sense other horses might need you to grab their crest and glare at them while yelling and stomping your feet in order to reach the same level of correction. 

It has been quite funny to see this horse acting like a docile little lamb all week though...Amore has been the one causing more trouble, but it's not a harsher tone that she needs, just a brain that can focus.
I knew when I rode Hero today that if I wanted him to just walk and not buck, all I had to do was be "that serious" with him, and he was listening to me so carefully that he didn't even try to trot or spook once. Might be a real breakthrough for us.


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## Hondo

This brought up a recall of the time Hondo bit me by total accident. I may have vocalized a grimacing of pain but did not knowingly direct any response, negative or positive, towards Hondo.


His response for nearly two weeks was to no longer accompany me to the hay shed but rather instead wait at his feed tub without even looking at me and not beginning to eat until his hay was placed and my hands and arms were removed. That event was on the first anniversary of my legal ownership about four years ago. He has never quite returned to his overanxious zest at feeding time that was his allowed habit before.


Not to discount or disagree in any way with the stronger tone now used with Hero, but I do believe he knows he unintentionally hurt you and that "_could_" be at least partially responsible for his behavior.


I also remember once when working on Hondo's feet when he was goofing around not being particularly bad but just not being attentive to MY needs when out of frustration I struck him. Not enough for any real pain but his behavior became so totally supportive of my every wish that I actually felt badly.


Sort of like if a young person was reprimanded and they started standing straight up saluting and saying yes sir yes mam and did everything as asked with a stilted march but not with an attitude of mockery.


I'm relatively new to the psyche of horses but am leaning more and more in the direction of the depth of feelings and responses that they are capable of.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...I won't say he is "thick-headed," but I'll guess he's been through a lot of tougher handling which has perhaps desensitized him to the point where he doesn't really believe in or place importance on corrections that are below a certain level...


A good description of Bandit, particularly compared to Mia before him!

Bandit's previous owner hopes he can eventually introduce gentler methods of working with horses where he lives. He also considers Clinton Anderson a softer, gentler approach to training. I view CA as abusive, but then, where I live, 60 degrees is considered "cold".

CNN doesn't want me to copy the image, even with attribution, but they have a picture of traditional Navajo horse training called _"Whispering" doesn't work so well out here."_ at 10 easy ways to experience Navajo America

Traditional racing, which is what Bandit experienced:

https://kurtzjack.photoshelter.com/image/I0000IeP6JVyvtaA

Maybe I understand now why, if I give Bandit slack during a canter, he thinks "run!" instead. But I think some of Bandit's hard-headed approach to life is just who he is. He always has bite and kick marks on him. Even around the other horses, when I am totally out of the picture, "subtle" and "Bandit" just don't belong in the same sentence!

When he is in the mood, he can read me just as well as Mia could ever do - but Mia focused on me and liked guessing what I wanted, while Bandit often just doesn't care what I want - unless I make it clear it is important to me. THEN he'll go along.

If another horse approached Mia eating, and Mia didn't want it? A glance. Maybe, in extreme times, a twitch of an ear. Bandit? He'll spin around and lash out and rear and go nutsy-koo-koo. I SUPPOSE YOU COULD SAY HE IS AN ALL-CAPS KIND OF GUY, NOT INTERESTED IN SOFTER SPEECH!

Meanshile, Trooper thinks you are being aggressive if you let your lower leg touch his side. While Mia, when she wasn't afraid, thought it was fun to guess what you wanted before you realized you wanted it.

I guess the flip side is that Bandit can handle rough approaches without much bothering him internally.


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## Knave

The ottbs I knew all were a bit duller horses, but they also had a kindness and gentleness to them. I guess that I haven’t really struggled with upping my discipline, because it is a certain reaction I am looking for. I give the discipline level required to get the reaction I want.

Not bringing Bones into it, who would be too complicated, all of our horses take a smaller amount of pressure. Then there is Zeus... Zeus takes an outstandingly large amount of pressure when he needs discipline. It is crazy to me how much it takes. At the same time he is super light mouthed and sided, but if he needs backed off on the ground, he needs pressure.

The other horses see it too. They can’t move him with a dirty look or even a bite. They’ve come to accept his intolerance to being pushed around until he crosses a line. A couple days ago he climbed onto Cashes neck and held on, making Cash tote him around the corral two times before he could shake him. Then Cash was irritated enough to try and take him down. Zeus doesn’t mind being drug to the ground though. He thinks he is just happily playing! Lol


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## gottatrot

That Navajo horse training looks pretty rough. 
I think Zeus sounds even more difficult to get through to than Hero. Hero also has that sense of play though, and thinks other geldings are playing even when they're taking chunks out of his hide.

I heard a song "Saturn" by Sleeping At Last that reminded me of Halla, so I made a video with it. Of course I'll always miss my beauty, it's just a little over a year since she went to heaven. What a rare gift she was, and when I watch the video I remember how she lived every moment of her life fully. We sure had fun!


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## gottatrot

> (@*Hondo*): I'm relatively new to the psyche of horses but am leaning more and more in the direction of the depth of feelings and responses that they are capable of.


I agree, horses are very intelligent and understand many things, probably many more than we give them credit for. You could be right about Hero understanding he injured me, it would not surprise me. I guess I like to err on the side of not trying to place too much responsibility on the horse for what they understand. Meaning, just in case, I make sure I am not angry or upset at a horse, thinking they should have understood the ramifications of an action, or to be sensitive to the fact that I am not 100%. 

Most likely Hero understood I was lame, and that he had kicked me to cause it. He might even have taken it to heart that I was being very stern because he was not supposed to (in a herd) kick and/or injure a horse that was more of a leader/responsible for leading others. Most likely horses understand this concept relating to kicking or biting more than they understand that we can be injured by falling off them. 

Two weeks after my knee injury I'm at least 90% recovered so I'm considering a more challenging ride tomorrow. 

Lunging Hero tonight, my impression is that he is still getting rid of habit and muscle memory but that his stifles are not really catching or bothering him. It used to be that I would work him and he'd loosen up a little but then he'd get worse as we went along. Now he seems to have a short period at the beginning where he moves like he used to, and then it's like he realizes his movement is wrong and he starts moving better and better as he goes.

Starting out, he'll keep his hind legs close together at the canter, and do a slight toe drag at the trot. I'll spank the ground with the lunge whip, and he'll start moving out, and then suddenly he's stretching the hind legs apart at the canter, and also lifting the hind legs and stepping out without toe dragging at the trot.

I was thinking tonight that there are actually a couple of benefits for horses with Cushing's. At least for Amore, when the weather is colder in the winter she has such a thick coat that she never seems to have issues with feeling cold or losing weight. The older she gets, the more I am also grateful for her appetite. The vet says her teeth are getting quite short (normal for 28), but I have no trouble keeping her weight up with just hay and grass. 

Hero also has a great appetite. I was grazing the two of them tonight in the dark on lead ropes, and it was so funny listening to them. They both have this very rapid rate of grazing, especially when they are on the really green stuff down by the lower barn. It's almost like they're in a race to see who can bite and chew the fastest, and get the most grass. Halla was always lackadaisical about eating. 

The barn owner saw me picking out their hooves and was like, "You are so dedicated!" I don't know, it just seems natural to want to spend time with the horses whenever I can. They need a lot of exercise and maintenance all year round. But I understand many people spend more time with their horses when the weather is nice. 

By the way, people tease me about it but I am mentioning to everyone that the time change is in only 8 days!!! Life begins again!! I always feel like I survive the dark period of the year, and now everything will get better again. I don't have any issues with seasonal affective disorder, but it's just so difficult after working a night to short myself sleep, get up and rush to the barn, only to end up with an hour or less of daylight. 

I look forward to when I can sleep 8 hrs, give myself time to wake up, and even if I get to the barn at 5:30 I can still have a couple hours to do things before dark. Suddenly I can trim hooves in actual natural light rather than by headlamp, and ride without hurrying home because it's getting dark. It's also nice to see the horse you're lunging, rather than just trying to figure out their gait by sound and the silhouette of their legs against the fading light. 

There is a thread about treating horses for reward, and I was thinking about horses getting rude about taking treats. I like training mine to take a carrot from me while we're walking; I'll put it in my palm and reach behind me, and make them take it as we go to save time. It doesn't take long before they can do it quite well, like passing a baton. 

I'm wondering, when you all reprimand a horse, do you start light and then get stronger? Of do you just give a strong reprimand? If I'm actually reprimanding a horse, it's because I believe they know that what they are doing is actually not acceptable. I will start light with a cue, to give a horse a chance to respond. But with a reprimand I tend to just do it once, make it count, and then it's over. If a horse offers to bite me, I just do a hard slap or punch with my hand, smack with a rope, or jerk on the lead. If a horse offers to kick me, the same. I'll use my voice at the same time.


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## Hondo

"lackadaisical" : I've heard and used that word all my life but never knew it was a "real" word.


For myself, I just do not reprimand. I guess I'm lucky that I just don't ever seem to need to. The times my actions could have been classed as a reprimand, I acted out of a fit of frustration which was counterproductive in the long run.


I certainly do express disapproval at times but seldom with any physical activity.


Hondo is very sensitive about people friendly horses approaching when receiving TLC. A while back he whirled on Frodo approaching while I was grooming Hondo. I grabbed his tail to stop him and hollered "Hey!!!". "Don't do that when I grooming!" He of course understood not a word but very accurately understood the meaning associated with the tone of the words.


He stopped and we continued grooming.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> The barn owner saw me picking out their hooves and was like, "You are so dedicated!"


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## Knave

Hmm, I guess I never thought about that. I read the horse, and I’m not one to have to reprimand too often. Usually I try to be ahead of it. Zeus took me a while to figure out because he didn’t have any reaction to a mild reprimand, so I learned his pressure. Bones I haven’t gotten after enough because I spoil him, lol, but when I do he responds to different pressures depending on where they are coming from. He is a bit on the duller side.

Cash is sensitive actually, and if I were to use too much pressure he would get on the fight. I start with as mild as possible and work around different techniques to get the desired response, very rarely increasing pressure. Beamer only takes a look and he’s a mess, and I haven’t done enough honestly with Pete or Lucy to see much, just giving what seems to work. I guess my pressure is dependent on reaction with horses I don’t know well enough to have altered my response. So if I turned around on the ground for instance, I would be reading their response to just the turn. Does that make sense? That tells me how to evaluate my pressure already.

On another note, I am thrilled with you about the longer days!


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## SueC

That's a lovely piece of music and clip of Halla, @gottatrot. 

Here's something that makes me think of love and loss. Sting originally wrote this, but Eva Cassidy, who unfortunately died young herself, did such a beautiful version...






You can even re-write the lyrics to apply them to a horse; something I actually did when I was grieving for my mare...

I'm glad you're getting more daylight again. We're glad here that the weather is cooling, and the UV is reducing (from extreme to very high ).

And it's great to hear you're back in the saddle! 

The one thing I can contribute to your question about correcting horses when they hurt us etc, or do something dangerous to ourselves or other herd members, is that it doesn't take much to impress that on a horse - I stamp my foot with eye contact (that's also a good warning; it's horse body language); I'll "Oy!" and I'll slap a rump, or charge after a horse a short way. But then, it's got to be over, and when they come back sorry to make it up with you, they can get cuddles again etc. They'll stick their noses under your arm and just rest their head against you etc, in my experience. My horses are very keen to get on with me, even "macho" Julian! :rofl:

And sometimes you don't even have to reprimand them - say they accidentally catch skin when they wanted to catch your sleeve playfully - which happens to my horses about one time in a hundred if I play with them - and they realise it, and get wide-eyed and snorty, you know they're sorry already, and that they'll be extremely careful for a long time after that...


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## AndyTheCornbread

@bsms When I was younger for a few years we lived on the checkerboard just off the Navajo reservation. There were two kinds of people in the area, Mormons and Indians. The Mormon kids wouldn't hang out with us because of their religion and how clique-ish they can be in remote communities like that so all our friends were Navajo or Hopi. The Navajos are HARD on horses to say the least, if they get a bad bucker it is/was a source of pride for them to see if they could literally buck it to death or very near. A good horseman was one who could buck a horse to death if it wouldn't quit bucking and not get thrown. There was one guy named "Elvis Begay", I'll never forget him, he killed a horse by bucking it to death in less than three minutes. Hands down some of the cruelest horse handling I have ever seen in my entire life. There were some who were pretty good to their horses but by and large the Navajo reservation is terrible place to be if you are a horse. I'm not sure if it is still that way because I haven't been back in a looooong time. Although I did serve with some Navajos in the Marine Corps and oddly enough when I was deployed I ran into the sister of a good Navajo friend of mine. She was in the Navy and I ran into her at a Naval installation overseas. Small world.


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## bsms

^^ As I think I mentioned, @AndyTheCornbread, Bandit's former owner (and Mia's current owner) hopes to introduce gentler ways of handling and training horses to his people. It is a bit scary to think of Clinton Anderson as a "gentle, soft" trainer, but like weather, a lot depends on what one is used to seeing.

He told me shortly after we traded horses that Mia was the softest horse he or his friends had ever ridden. His wife now feels safe riding Mia in a bosal, and he is happy riding Mia bareback & in a bosal. I think Mia has opened his eyes a bit to what a horse can be like. She certainly taught me a lot! But he had already turned to video trainers like CA in hopes of finding a better way to work horses. When people criticize video trainers - be it Parelli, CA, Warwick Schiller or others, they need to remember there is a LOT of country where the local standards would consider Clinton Anderson to be a wimp!

I love rural Arizona and southern Utah. It is a harsh land, but beautiful. Lots of good horsemen here, but lots who are stuck in 1860 Texas.

I worried a lot about Mia after the trade. I hadn't heard the term "Res Rider" until after the trade, and I was pretty upset about how Bandit had been trained. I took comfort in the fact that Mia was not going to be raced, just bred. Since then, we've stayed in touch and Mia at least has had a chance to do things and learn things I could not teach her in my riding environment. She could see some hard use someday. Any time you sell a horse, you take a chance on what will happen. Black Beauty Syndrome. If I knew then what I know now, I might not have traded, although I think it has worked out well for all concerned.

I still struggle with it. Looking ahead at the next 10 years, part of me wants to ease out of horses. I enjoy them, but the three I own now don't affect me the way Mia did - and owning horses in one's backyard is limiting on travel. Bandit is at least 10 years younger than the other two and I've thought of selling him to someone who would ride him more - but who? He's very much NOT Mia. He's a good horse but there isn't near the depth of feeling - and he's young enough another owner could have a lot of good years with him. But...who? Who will encourage him instead of just whip him harder at times?

The readers of this thread aren't representative of most riders. A common idea on HF and around here is "_He has 23 hours a day to eat, poop and stand still! So for MY hour with him, he can darn well please me. It's HIS JOB!_" Around here, there are a lot of horses who might spend 3 hours a WEEK outside of their 20' x 20' pen! I'd as soon see Bandit back on the Res as do that to him!

Tough choices. I'm not at all sure I want to own horses for another 20+ years, but don't know how to make certain they won't suffer cramped quarters and uncaring owners if I don't.


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## Knave

@bsms I don’t think that we can control what others do with the horses we sell. It is frustrating to turn a horse and see it used in a way we don’t like. I have done it, turning horses for what I assumed was the best for them only to be disappointed in the end.

That said, I have explained to the little girl when she had to sell Moon (she was the one who wanted to start a business...) that most horses have many chapters in their lives. We don’t see it often because we start a horse and keep them through retirement in most cases, but the large majority of horses see different homes for different time frames.

For example, most horses are bred and raised to two in one home, started and sold in another, worked through the main part of their lives in one, and retired in another. All that we can do and be assured of is that during their chapter in our lives it is kind and happy. 

So, if you ever decide to get out of the horse business, do your best to sell to a good place and then let it go at that.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Bandit is at least 10 years younger than the other two and I've thought of selling him to someone who would ride him more - but who? He's very much NOT Mia. He's a good horse but there isn't near the depth of feeling - and he's young enough another owner could have a lot of good years with him. But...who? Who will encourage him instead of just whip him harder at times?


send him up to @gottatrot - seems simple enough to me!


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## gottatrot

I agree with @PhantomHorse, keep Bandit fit for several more years until Amore dies of old age (she is 28), and then I'll be needing a second horse. :smile::smile: I'm quite light and he'd find our ground forgiving and soft, so he'd probably think he had things easier while still working. If he spooked me off a couple times while adapting to the new environment, I'd forgive him. Seems like he'd go well with Hero.

Thank you for the great songs, @Hondo and @SueC.



Knave said:


> All that we can do and be assured of is that during their chapter in our lives it is kind and happy.
> 
> So, if you ever decide to get out of the horse business, do your best to sell to a good place and then let it go at that.


I agree, and I've thought of taking in a horse for training, or helping it along to get healthy, and then finding it a new home. It's not like you have to keep every horse you buy forever, and sometimes what you do for them could help them for the rest of their life. Such as with Mia.

The issue is when the reason the horse is needing a home is because they have a special personality, so then in good conscience you can't often find a good place for them. For many horses that is not the case, and they will do well with any caring owner. I've come across many, many owners also who never feel safe actually riding their horse, but they still provide a great home that takes care of all the horse's needs. Four out of the eleven horses at my boarding barn are in that type of situation. 

My problem is that animals quickly become family members, and then they have to stay with me forever. DH is the same. He's been thinking of Halla recently and missing her too. 

Today I took Hero for a ride to the beach, but we didn't go onto it. He had a lot of energy, and the air was rather crisp with a stiff wind blowing. When we left the barn, Buddy began hollering after us, so Hero tried calling back a few times. Normally I ignore that, but I'm being more strict at the moment, so I stopped him each time. 

Hero was going to be a handful, but I kept nipping it in the bud each time he started working up, and he kept coming down for me. I knew he was watching where the dog went, and I told him he better not spook when the dog came out of the bushes, because we both knew it was the dog in there. He seemed to listen to my advice.

At the top of the dunes the sand was very deep again, like on the day I got kicked. There were also many cars below, and some bonfires. I'm still being careful of my knee, so wasn't sure if it could take bucking down the hill if I couldn't keep Hero calm. I tried walking him a few steps down, and he hunched up and got excited. So instead of going down we did some circles along the hill, through some deep stuff and I said "Hey!" in a sharp voice every time he thought about bucking or started bunching up and getting skittery. Soon we were walking calmly through the deep areas, and I rewarded him by zig-zagging back toward home. 

The wind was picking up more, and whipping Hero's tail around his hindquarters. As we turned back, he started dancing and when I told him to stop, he bunched up and wanted to rear. I was very harsh, and got after him until he settled. I'd try to let him trot a little here and there, and made him try to walk calmly. It's always a balance, but I was thinking what am I going to do, let him rear or buck me off when he's feeling hot or separated from other horses? He needs to learn to keep things down to a manageable level, even if initially I get him more worked up at times.

Almost certainly in the next ten years or so he'll quite often be very fit, and asked to do things that upset him. He needs to learn to tone things down and listen, just like Amore needed to learn not to be as hysterical when things spooked her. For her, it was stopping the bucking and containing her enough that she wasn't ditching me and bolting off. For him, I think it will be learning to not rear and buck and hop around whenever he is upset.

When we got back to the field, Hero again got excited as we neared home, and started trying to buck. I got after him, rode through the initial reaction that came from that, and then he walked calmly for a bit before trying again. I purposefully tried to trigger things by having him turn away from home and walk nice big circles for me, around the field, so we could practice calming again. He was fine until we started back for home, and then he really was leaping up, so I jumped off and corrected him from the ground, and that was the ticket because he didn't try anything more after that, and seemed to listen better when I got back on.

When he walked a short distance very calmly, I got off and told him he was a lovely boy. At the barn I let graze on some good grass, and of course then he didn't care at all about rejoining the other horses. 

One thing I've learned with lots of practice is how to remain utterly calm and unemotional while at the same time making my voice sound either very harsh or very pleased. Someone listening to our training session would have thought I was very angry at times, and very happy at other times. In reality I was very neutral inside. Well, except for feeling contented to be out riding and working my horse so soon after getting kicked. 

I was watching a video from just over a year ago, and Hero has come a long way since then. It was interesting to see how little he knew about responding to cues, and how careful I had to be.


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## bsms

^^ Yes...the Gottatrot Home for Horses Who Talk!

Be careful @gottatrot! I suspect Bandit would love the beach.


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## Knave

I’ve thought about it too sometimes Gotta. My problem is that it would take away from the horses I have. I am selfish and don’t really want to share my time I guess. I also have the same problem as you, and I wouldn’t be able to turn anything with an issue and I’d get super attached.

We all were in love with Moon. If she weren’t a pony we’d have bought her and kept her. She was amazing. She has a happy life now though in wine country in a very good situation. Little girl still misses her at times, although she loves the pictures we get occasionally.

Zeus she bought for her next sale project. We all love him so much. lol. Even husband wants him. With Pete retired though we plan on letting her keep him as her main horse and then buying him from her when she graduates. The worst of it is she could likely make a lot of money from someone else and we won’t have much to offer. Also it kind of shuts down her business to keep him. Oh well I guess... lol


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I'm wondering, when you all reprimand a horse, do you start light and then get stronger? Of do you just give a strong reprimand?



I'm still puzzling about where reprimand ends and positive punishment begins. Or are they one and the same and differ only by degree?


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## bsms

I view a reprimand as some degree of punishment for a knowing violation of accepted rules. Horses give each other reprimands and even strong punishment all the time. As long as it is fair and proportionate, I don't view it as bullying or as harmful to a good relationship.

Trooper may be an exception. He is a very timid horse, at least around humans. Any degree of chastisement affects him strongly and negatively when from a human. Bandit? Not much intimidates him, certainly not humans! And Cowboy would walk all over anyone who didn't stand up for themselves, human or horse.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> I'm still puzzling about where reprimand ends and positive punishment begins. Or are they one and the same and differ only by degree?


I think for me they are the same, but I also think there can be degrees of negative.

Most times, my reprimands are verbal - a simple "eh!" gets the point across. However, I will use a physical reprimand as well depending on the circumstance. For example, when I was farmsitting a couple weeks ago, I had to deal with a spoiled horse who is used to bullying his owner. She laughs it off when he strikes or bites her - I do not. He and I had a 3-second CTJ moment a few years ago when I first had to deal with him, which I do not regret for a moment. Now, all I have to do is raise my energy level and point at him and he will respect my space. 

Generally, I try to head off the unwanted behavior before it escalates into needing a reprimand.


----------



## Dragoon

@Knave and Gotta, ...Nashville the Haflinger was sold the beginning of January. I am still sad. 

He was not my horse, but the BO's. I was just breaking him to saddle...the BO reminded me that he always was intended to be a re-sale project. But I got attached...how could I not, he was the most affectionate horse I've ever met. Everything he did, he did with exuberance! 
He went to the best possible home (besides ME). He was purchased by the owners of a training and dressage barn. They show Western Dressage and he is their next project. He is gonna be a superstar! Even if he is intended to be a re-sale project there, he is going to be improved by a ton, and his value will only go up. People will value him. 

But I still cried. And I miss his soft face. He taught me a lot. Thanks Goober...


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## Knave

Oh @Dragoon I’ve been wondering and wondering about him and you, and I kept debating asking you again in my journal, but I didn’t want to be intrusive. 

I am so very sorry. Truly I am. If you ever need some rolly yellow love you can take a trip to me and play with baby Zeus.


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## AndyTheCornbread

In one way I hate selling horses I have put time into and in others I enjoy it. E.g. this winter I have a project gelding that I have been working on trust with all winter. He is just now to the point where he will actually come up to people when invited instead of running off and hiding when a person shows up. He will probably get sold the spring after this when I have over a year worth of work into him. He is such a sweet gentle guy, he is enormous and very powerful but he is the sweetest gentlest horse you can imagine. He has never been abused or neglected he was just owned by somebody who meant well but didn't know any better so he has a lot of anxiety due to poor ownership/handling. Once I get that out of him he is going to go from "good horse" to "holy [email protected] that's an awesome horse". I will miss him when he does finally go and I will miss his fuzzy face a lot, but I will make sure he goes to a great home and I will be very proud of how far he has come. It is always really hard for me when I go to sell one. Last one I sold I darn near had some tears when the little girl who bought him took him away but I knew his life as a 4-H halter show horse for her is going to be amazing. In both cases neither horse is one I want for one of my personal riding horses but that doesn't mean I didn't/won't have a hard time when I sold/sell them.


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## gottatrot

Before I bought Amore, my cousin let me ride her second horse for a few months and see if I wanted to buy him. Tory was a Peruvian Paso and dark bay, very beautiful. He looked a lot like this horse:








I really liked him, and he had tons of energy, was fun to ride on trails, smart and affectionate. The only problem was she wanted four or five grand for him, and that was not a high asking price for a 7 year old well trained Paso in our area. So I told myself I didn't want a gaited horse, and then I found Amore. But the ending to the story is that Tory died very young, a couple of years later, so it was better that I hadn't bought him.

It's helpful and interesting to hear what others think about reprimands or positive punishment. My thought right now is that regardless of what you think you are doing, what really matters is how the horse perceives it. As I was being very firm with Hero yesterday, I was thinking that I wasn't going to "break" this horse's spirit or traumatize him, even though what I was doing might have appeared very harsh.

On the other hand, when I was handling my friend's horse Pepper several years ago and trimming his hooves, he started to pull away a hind hoof and I said "Eh!" as I imagine the way @phantomhorse13 does. But poor Pepper almost fell down and was shaking all over, so I learned I couldn't even raise my voice with him. I'd say very quietly, "no," and he'd take it very seriously. 

There was a "trainer" that worked with Arabs at our barn, and she was perceived by every horse as way too harsh. Her voice was grating and loud. She never even touched my friend's gelding, but the friend would have to take him outside when that trainer arrived, because when her horse heard the trainer's car drive up, he'd start shaking all over. The trainer wanted to pet my dog once, and he was shrinking into my arms, all terrified. 

It's difficult for me, but my volume of correction with Hero is dialed up right now. That seems to be what he hears. I'm trying to be fine with that, but I'm watching for any signs that this is the wrong approach. One thing I know is absolutely true with horses is that you have to be very flexible with your methods.


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## Hondo

Punishment: Trying to think about this realistically. My desired strategy is to communicate that I dislike a particular behavior. I'd like to do that mostly by just communication as one might with a child. I've said Ow! when Hondo rubs his face on me too hard with a halter on and it seems to have caused him to rub easier. Could be my imagination but it seems he rubs me back a little as I rub him. He can be very gentle with his rubbing.


Now this is with a well known and bonded horse.


One horse in the herd that didn't know me that well got chased with a halter being thrown at her repeatedly. She avoided me for a long time after that but we became good friends later. Her behavior was extreme and if I'd had a rock or brick I'd have thrown that. I spent no effort in trying to control my emotions.


So as it's been suggested, "It all depends". But the goal I think should be to communicate desires without punishment. And train responses to those desires. I think that's possible with the bonded horse.


As far as, " I'd say very quietly, "no," and he'd take it very seriously", I think that horse may have been handled by the godfather in the past.


As far as remaining calm inside but being able to fake anger or glee to other humans around, I'm doubting the horse is as easily fooled. Thinking about clever Hans and how I'm impressed that horses often may perceive many things about us that we are not aware of ourselves.


Summing, punishement and fear of punishment as everyone knows works, works well, and works fast. But deep meaningful friendships, humans or non-human animals, are not so easily forged with punishment....of course.


Sorry, I'm still pondering. A child who loves their parent and who knows their parent deeply loves them will take a pat on the hand and a no as a communication from a loved one where the same action might be deeply offensive from someone else.


At this level it does become deeply complicated.


I'll leave and go pick a little lint now.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> My desired strategy is to communicate that I dislike a particular behavior.


Yes, and also I'd say I desire to communicate it without overfacing the horse, i.e. making them too afraid or worried to think and learn. Or making them want to flee the situation.



Hondo said:


> As far as remaining calm inside but being able to fake anger or glee to other humans around, I'm doubting the horse is as easily fooled. Thinking about clever Hans and how I'm impressed that horses often may perceive many things about us that we are not aware of ourselves.


Funny about the godfather. :smile:

Yes, I think it is more difficult to fake it with a horse since they can read our more subtle cues. However, I think it is best to remain unemotional if possible, because it helps us stay more controlled with our reactions. If we're angry we could end up overdoing things, and scaring or even hurting the horse. So if we're acting loud and angry with a horse, but are in reality calm inside, will the horse take us less seriously? 

Are horses actually angry when they are making scary faces and reprimanding other horses, or are they simply bluffing the other horses? Thinking about this now, I believe horses do respond to loud, physical bluff type behavior. Halla was very good at making terrible faces and "snake head" at other horses, and they seemed to respect that but I don't think she was usually actually upset with them. It was more of a cool-headed strategy, as far as I could tell.
Horses squeal and stomp, but it often seems like it's all a show.

If anything, I believe Hero is poor at differentiating between actual threats and bluffs from other horses, because he seemed to always think Leo was bluffing him until Leo bit him very hard.



Hondo said:


> But deep meaningful friendships, humans or non-human animals, are not so easily forged with punishment....of course.
> 
> Sorry, I'm still pondering. A child who loves their parent and who knows their parent deeply loves them will take a pat on the hand and a no as a communication from a loved one where the same action might be deeply offensive from someone else.


Yes, and a child might also understand a spanking (although parents don't do that as much nowadays) as a sign of caring...at least my mom would say she had to teach me and I remember thinking that yes, I certainly deserved it, and if she didn't care if I grew up to be well behaved she probably wouldn't spank me. 
I don't really think horses think _that_ way. But I don't think in order to form a friendship with a horse or bond closely that it has to always be positive and without punishment. Observing the deep friendships I've seen between horses that are like family to each other, they still often punish each other for making a wrong move. It seems rather natural to have moments of mutual grooming and spending quiet time together, and also to have moments where one horse tries to take the other horse's food and gets punished for it.

Perhaps a key element is whether the punishment is _fair_. As I think @bsms said, does the horse understand that what they did was undesirable behavior? If so, then they will see being punished for it as fair. Even if they keep trying to do it like they might keep trying to steal another horse's food. Something also I think can be tricky is that horses like Hero might think you are just doing rough play instead of correcting them. He's finally going long periods without trying to bite me, and I think maybe he thought at first we were just playing rough when I was getting after him for biting.

I think there is a difference between only spending time with a horse working, and watching every move while correcting anything that is out of line like a drill sergeant, versus spending time with a horse giving feed, grooming the horse and finding itchy spots, taking the horse for pleasant walks, and providing things the horse appreciates while also at times correcting/punishing behaviors that are out of line. 
One person might be perceived by the horse as unfair, and unpleasant to be around. The other can form a bond with the horse, because the horse could see that person as having many positives, and also relate naturally to having some punishment doled out fairly, just as the horse would understand it was fair for another horse to charge at them to keep them away from a bucket of grain.


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## SueC

Shall we talk about mirror neurons? I think they have so much impact on how we work with other people and animals, and help us be in tune as social animals.










As it's a Public Holiday here, my husband and I went for a long walk with Jess, Julian and a camera. When I looked at the photos Brett had taken of Julian and me, I found it quite striking how much we mirror each other in the photos - most of the photos show us in step, and looking in the same direction. I know what it's like to _feel_ in tune with a horse, and connected with it, but I'd never had anyone photograph that before, and seen how that is also very much a reality in the physical world, not just your perception of it. Just like we tend to fall into step when walking with our spouses. 

The full series of photos is over here:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...s-other-people-479466/page155/#post1970686529

But it fits in better with the conversation over here, I think! Because it's part of that "telepathy" thing that we sometimes feel, that's so important in communication with animals.

There was a great book on related themes here, that we read last year at our house:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7749124-the-smart-swarm


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## Dragoon

That's a beautiful photo, Sue C!
I think its very natural to look where another person is looking, and horses tell us so blatantly because they have to move their whole head and ears to look. Eyes set to the side and all...

Very interesting about the TB biting. I wonder if its a by-product of them growing up in a racing stable...not being able to move and socialize normally. Perhaps their mouths become their main outlet for their feelings. 

I have an 'adopted' TB mare I have been caring for like my own for three years now. I had a bodyworker come last week to do my gelding and the two mares i have permission to ride. Anyways, she is very feisty, hates being brushed, ticklish etc. And has had minimal handling for the past year. She was also, unfortunately, confined to her stall for two days due to the weather at the time of the appointment!!

So she was 'bad'. Antsy, fussing, trying to walk away, head tossing. I stood at her head trying to convince her to stand still. I had to growl and back her up a few times. So she she nipped. Constantly. And very carefully. Tiny little nips that just caught just the edge of my coat. She was trying so hard to listen to me and stand still! I could see how hard she was trying. I know this horse. I love her and she likes me as much as she likes any human. She nipped at my scarf several times, whatever was in front of her nose. It was like by me immobilizing her feet, all the frustration came out her head. Lots of head tossing and little nips. But she held it together and largely, stood still. 

The bodyworker was aghast. She stopped after a bit and told me she was scared the mare would bite my face. i was really surprised when she said that, because it had not occurred to me until she said it. Accidents can always happen, but can't she see the mare isn't really trying to bite me? I'd have knocked her head off if she did. 
The energy has to come out somehow. The mare understood I wanted her to stand still (for an hour!) She was trying. So after that I helped her by holding up the lead rope stretched across for her to nip. She nipped and tossed her head but stood still. My other two stood still with no antics, and I fully expected it from them, two days confinement or not. I love all three for trying for me.


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## Hondo

RE: I think maybe he thought at first we were just playing rough when I was getting after him for biting.


Comment: This thought sort of just jumped out at me. May be meaningful.........or not. Maybe if one felt enough control to allow anger to be felt internally, the horse would recognize this was not play and receive and react to non-punishing communication appropriately. BTW, I talk a much better game than I play


Also interesting about the trainer that the horses and dogs all fled from without even knowing her. They obviously saw _something._


@SueC I have felt that unspoken communication you speak of but have never heard anyone else speak of it. Don't know if it really is real, but it _feels_ rather strong.


I recently read an article on some brain experiments where there was communication across severed "wires" without synapses. The conclusion was that the communication was from electrical fields produced by the electrical currents. Or something like that. I'm sure my quoting is not perfect. Should have saved the article. It may have been in Psychology Today.


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## gottatrot

Great stuff, @SueC and @Dragoon.
@Hondo, I guess I'm doomed if I have to _feel_ angry...
Hero is funny and cute even when he is being naughty. How can I feel angry? :smile:
Just because the behavior can hurt me, it doesn't mean that he intends to cause any harm. So it is difficult to feel anger.


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## Knave

You all make me think too hard! Lol. I was left kind of thinking I didn’t explain myself well in my original response to this discipline thing, and then it continues on and makes me think more. 

For me it is like rarely do I think in those types of terms. @SueC touched what I think in a way. I only think of discipline as a unique thing when I hit a wall, like my conversation became confused and I need to alter something in the way I was communicating.

I guess I am trying to explain that there is a lot more of feeling than thinking. Hence why I don’t think about my level of discipline when I turn around. I do work on more thinking whenever I can see I need to, or when I am trying to teach something new.

However, most of the time even then 90% of the conversation I am having is feeling and not thinking. So, say Lucy for example was acting kind of nasty (I choose her because she is such a princess lol); I wouldn’t think specifically about discipline, but it is fluid and a continuation of a conversation (for lack of better words), which might contain discipline.

At the same time she would continue her conversation with me. I only analyze when there seems to be a faulter I guess. Something between us. Even Zeus I didn’t actually think about upping my discipline, I just saw I had to. I take that with me when I am with him somewhere.

Now, continuing the line like it is a conversation, Cash and I were having a miscommunication. It took me a bit of thinking to come to the conclusion that he was worrying about my “discipline,” and I thought through a different method. That doesn’t mean that still in changing my tone I don’t feel a lot more than think.

I guess that, if not as antisocial as me, you can probably see it in interactions with other people. Some things have an undercurrent when said, displaying some lack of acceptance. It isn’t bad, it doesn’t even always expect a change, but it is there in regular old discussions. I don’t think it is ever thought of as discipline. Then there are ultimatums, although very rare, that say if you do this my reaction will be this. Not common in my horse interactions, but if a horse were to do something very bad it would be there. 

Now, I have social anxiety, and worry too much over my conversations with people. It makes them a lot less fun. I wonder if when I overthink what I said to someone it is the same as another overthinking what they said to a horse.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> @*Hondo* , I guess I'm doomed if I have to _feel_ angry...


.


So if you had kids, they'd never look at each other and say, "Uh oh, Mom's mad. We better do what she says", even though they had never experienced physical punishment?


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## bsms

Knave said:


> ...Now, I have social anxiety, and worry too much over my conversations with people. It makes them a lot less fun...


My youngest doesn't even like to talk on the phone. She prefers text because she knows what she is sending in a text, but voice and social interaction means she can be sending messages she doesn't intend. In the military, my biggest fault was difficulty in reading people. I seem to be pretty much a WYSIWYG kind of guy, but lots of people...lie? Certainly put on a front, and I always tend to assume the front is real.

When Bandit decides to defend his bucket of hay pellets, he acts like a homicidal (equicidal?) maniac, ready to tear apart any horse who gets close. But in reality, I'm not sure he has ever made contact.

Maybe that is why he is unfazed by me. *Not a subtle bone in that boy's body! *What You See Is Probably More Than What You Get. So if I punch him in the neck, hard, he's like, "_Oh? Is something bothering you?_" While Trooper literally has fled to the far side of the corral when I sneezed...:frown_color:


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## AndyTheCornbread

I do more redirection now days than true cause and effect style punishment. If it is a safety issue like the horse nipping at me while saddling or trying to walk over top of me while not paying attention then they will meet an elbow in the nose when they try to nip or get whacked with the end of the lead rope if they start to come over me. I try to do it in such a way that I am not moving toward them so that in order for them to get hit they have to move into it. Horses get that they did it to themselves when it happens that way. 

It's like a fence if they run into the electric fence they realize they did it and they avoid the fence but they don't become scared of it. 

If I stick my elbow out just as they go in for the nip they run their nose into my elbow and they realize that "OW hey he is sharp right there, I shouldn't do that to myself" and if they are going to try and walk over me they quickly realize that "when he swings a rope it doesn't mean anything bad but if I step into the area the rope is in I will get hit". I make it a consistent distance just longer than my arm can reach and my arm plus itself again is my space. I've never had a horse act like it is being punished when it goes into my space and gets whacked just like they don't act weird if they invade another horses space and get kicked. 

They understand personal space and they understand when they have done something to themselves but I don't think they have the logic to be able to process true punishment e.g. I don't think a horse can say to itself "_I know I shouldn't do X because if I do that is bad and I will get punished for it_". I think their logic is more along the lines of "_don't touch fence, fence hurts, fence will not hurt if don't touch_". They don't have enough frontal lobe for more logic than that. 

That's why I think the whole respect idea is nonsense. A horse would have to have empathy and reasoning ability to understand respect the way people do, and their brains simply aren't wired that way. Fear they understand, work and rest they understand etc. but true respect as we humans understand it, no. 

So, I choose to re-direct non-dangerous behavior I don't want, a lot of times via "_the make the wrong thing hard, and the right thing easy_" principle. 

For instance: The horse wants to do something I don't like that isn't dangerous to me like staying by the gate or the barn or its buddies etc. That works for me, we will just work on transitions or transitions in small circles right by your buddy or the gate etc. until you start asking for a rest and when you do we will go off a little way and face away and rest, repeat with rests a little further out each time until the horse has a light bulb moment and goes "_being with my buddy means I work, the rest is someplace else, I will go look for it_". 

At that point going somewhere else becomes their idea and they commit to it and by simple re-direction I have made it the horses idea to go do something other than get stuck to the gate or its buddy or whatever. Then the horse starts thinking "_I like going for rides with this guy, I get to do what I want all the time and he really listens to me and is concerned about my safety_", although their inner monologue is probably closer to: "_safe, happy, not confused...love this_", they don't have enough logic ability to reason out that they are really doing what I wanted all along. 

I refuse to fight with a horse, it just goes nowhere good. I figure since we are a couple of billion times smarter than they are, we should be able to get them to do what we want without resorting to true punishment to get it. If I get frustrated with the horse and can't figure something out or I get stuck I will just real quick ask it to do something it knows well and let it rest right after doing that easy thing while I figure out what I need to change or do differently to get the horse to understand. Sometimes if it is really perplexing I will end the session on that good note and go sit someplace and figure out my plan of attack and try that the following training session.


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## Knave

That is a lot of what I do too @AndyTheCornbread. I don’t think I’m that much smarter though. Lol


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## SueC

Dragoon said:


> That's a beautiful photo, Sue C!
> I think its very natural to look where another person is looking, and horses tell us so blatantly because they have to move their whole head and ears to look. Eyes set to the side and all...


Yes, but not all humans do it well. What makes it _natural_ is that we are set up for it as social animals by having mirror neurons. I think humans can get in the way of that instinctive stuff more than other animals can, by going around and around inside their own thoughts etc, instead of just _being_. I have to tune in to that instinctive stuff, which is also a lot like being Zen, when I want to connect like that with an animal - I can't have "noise" in my head for it.

When you're using your mirror neurons, you're not consciously noticing that you are doing parallel things, and that you are reflecting each other - it's an instinctive thing, the same thing that makes birds in flight be able to turn smoothly as a flock as if by magic. If you tried to achieve that consciously, by copying consciously etc, or trying to calculate what would happen next, you'd be much slower than just using your mirror neurons. The only thing I can consciously do to help me not obscure my mirror neurons is to just be, and to stop with the internal chatter. And then suddenly I feel in tune, and can communicate instinctively rather than consciously.

I think horses are better at it than we are! 




Hondo said:


> RE: I think maybe he thought at first we were just playing rough when I was getting after him for biting.
> 
> Comment: This thought sort of just jumped out at me. May be meaningful.........or not. Maybe if one felt enough control to allow anger to be felt internally, the horse would recognize this was not play and receive and react to non-punishing communication appropriately. BTW, I talk a much better game than I play


Don't we all? :smile:

And I think yes, horses do pick up on our emotions. They have excellent antennae. Very Zen, are horses! Can teach us so much about being in the moment, going with the flow etc. 




> Also interesting about the trainer that the horses and dogs all fled from without even knowing her. They obviously saw _something._


Yeah, I've seen that sort of thing as well. I think horses and dogs do that more easily than humans do it, because they don't tune out like we do, or change channel as much.

Now this is going back to that safety conversation we had here a while back, about how women seem more in tune with danger from other humans than men, because they are targeted more etc. As a young person, I often got in trouble by ignoring the alarm bells than instinctively went off in me about some people. I'd chide myself, "How can you feel that way? You don't even know them, how can you judge them like this?" I thought it would be better to assess people intellectually, consciously, to think about it. But I was wrong; there are very few false positives with that internal alarm, and it's there for your protection. You ignore it at your peril. By all means, use your intellect and reflection as well, but do not ignore the warning bells - be wary. I think for me, getting older has meant trusting these instinctive things more, because I've seen how they are usually right.



> @SueC I have felt that unspoken communication you speak of but have never heard anyone else speak of it. Don't know if it really is real, but it _feels_ rather strong.


So you're living in a caravan in nature, with your dog and your horse (although you probably don't have Hondo in the caravan very often! ;-)), and have a reflective life with a lot of space in it, rather than a suburban life with endless chatter inside and outside. This is far more conducive to getting in tune with the natural world, than the "standard life". It's very Thoreau, in some ways.



> I recently read an article on some brain experiments where there was communication across severed "wires" without synapses. The conclusion was that the communication was from electrical fields produced by the electrical currents. Or something like that. I'm sure my quoting is not perfect. Should have saved the article. It may have been in Psychology Today.


That's really interesting! As is the whole notion of neural plasticity, that we can keep on learning and growing and repairing things in our brains. I love the fact that each time we learn something, we're starting new neural pathways in our brains. And it's use it or lose it, just like with muscle. Isn't life amazing!


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## phantomhorse13

Knave said:


> AndyTheCornbread said:
> 
> 
> 
> I figure since we are a couple of billion times smarter than they are, we should be able to get them to do what we want without resorting to true punishment to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think I’m that much smarter though.
Click to expand...

I have arabs. I KNOW I am not that much smarter!!  :rofl:


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## SueC

Yep, I also think humans overestimate how smart they are compared to other animals! 

And I too grew up with an Arabian horse! :rofl:


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## egrogan

In that vein, has anyone read the book _Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?_ We have an informal book club at work, sometimes we read about education/education policy but sometimes other things. This is what the group picked for next month and I haven't heard of it.



> (Publisher summary)
> From world-renowned biologist and primatologist Frans de Waal, a groundbreaking work on animal intelligence destined to become a classic.
> 
> What separates your mind from an animal’s? Maybe you think it’s your ability to design tools, your sense of self, or your grasp of past and future—all traits that have helped us define ourselves as the planet’s preeminent species. But in recent decades, these claims have eroded, or even been disproven outright, by a revolution in the study of animal cognition. Take the way octopuses use coconut shells as tools; elephants that classify humans by age, gender, and language; or Ayumu, the young male chimpanzee at Kyoto University whose flash memory puts that of humans to shame. Based on research involving crows, dolphins, parrots, sheep, wasps, bats, whales, and of course chimpanzees and bonobos, Frans de Waal explores both the scope and the depth of animal intelligence. He offers a firsthand account of how science has stood traditional behaviorism on its head by revealing how smart animals really are, and how we’ve underestimated their abilities for too long.
> 
> People often assume a cognitive ladder, from lower to higher forms, with our own intelligence at the top. But what if it is more like a bush, with cognition taking different forms that are often incomparable to ours? Would you presume yourself dumber than a squirrel because you’re less adept at recalling the locations of hundreds of buried acorns? Or would you judge your perception of your surroundings as more sophisticated than that of a echolocating bat? De Waal reviews the rise and fall of the mechanistic view of animals and opens _our_ minds to the idea that animal minds are far more intricate and complex than we have assumed. De Waal’s landmark work will convince you to rethink everything you thought you knew about animal—and human—intelligence.


Last month we read _Educated_, and if you've never read that one, I'd HIGHLY recommend it. I couldn't put it down, I read it in the course of one afternoon.


> _*Educated : A Memoir*_ is the story of _*Tara Westover*_, who started her education formally at the age of 17. This is a tale of survival and struggle. The story takes several dramatic turns relating to Mormon survivalism, family dynamics, new horizons, abuse and several other defining moments. The most remarkable fact about the story is that after entering the classroom so late, Tara earned a PhD in history. One of the lessons of Educated is that you can do anything you set your mind to.


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## SueC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Knave* View Post 
_ Quote:
Originally Posted by *AndyTheCornbread* View Post 
I figure since we are a couple of billion times smarter than they are, we should be able to get them to do what we want without resorting to true punishment to get it.

I don’t think I’m that much smarter though._



phantomhorse13 said:


> I have arabs. I KNOW I am not that much smarter!!  :rofl:


Just in postscript to that delightful series, DH just woke up and said, "I've known people dumber than any horse."

The Germans have a special saying for that category: _Born stupid, learnt nothing since, then forgot half of it._

This is from the language that also brought us:

_You may slide backwards off my hunchback._ (=Get lost!)

_Mixing up the feed for the fleas_. (=scatching one's head)

_He hasn't all his cups in his cupboard_. (=a few cents short of the dollar)


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## AndyTheCornbread

I definitely think horses are intelligent and that they communicate on levels that we don't fully comprehend but punishing a horse is like punishing an autistic child. They just aren't going to understand so redirection is taking the kinder/higher and or more just road. 

I have always assumed that since we are the more intelligent species, that we should be good stewards and find better ways of handling things then by use of punishment that the horse doesn't really understand. Same goes for arguing with a horse, they will give as good as they get but it serves no purpose and it should be beneath us to stoop to that level when we know there are better ways to deal with it that are kinder to the animals we are given care of. 

We still have a lot of old time cowboy style trainers out here that believe if you just hit/buck/work your horse hard enough they will eventually do what you want them to. Every time I see somebody around here doing that it reminds me of that internet meme about running in the special Olympics and why it is like arguing. 

I see it most often in summer and fall when guys jump on horses that clearly aren't ready for it to get them ready for trail riding, camping, or hunting season. They will be wailing away on the horse often right by the road because it just won't go and do what they want and it makes me sad and it also makes me wonder if their horse didn't trust them enough to do something simple like take a single step toward an object it was unsure of, how did they figure it was ready for a trail ride beside a semi-busy road? Just because they are ready to go for a ride, doesn't mean their horse is.

Anyway when horses start scheduling moon landings and launching their own Mars rovers I will consider arguing a point with one to change its mind. Until then using logic like "work vs rest" to get it to want the same things I want is what I feel personally is the most appropriate way of training alternate behavior into my horses.


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## Alder

Okay well I'm just going to have to jump in here in response to AndyTheCornbread. You claim we are more intelligent because we send things to Mars and then go on to describe people who aren't intelligent enough to even read a horse. 



gottatrot's writing is interesting because she observes and reads her horses carefully, and thinks about the best way to respond to them, which gets me thinking about my horses. Who, by the way, are very good at reading me.


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## bsms

I wrote this some time back concerning a Ray Hunt quote:

_"You wouldn't try to take him away from the barn; you'd just make it difficult for him to hang around there. You would make it difficult by not letting his feet stop - just keep his feet moving...*You've made the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.*_" - page 52

This is just pressure and release. The rider isn't hitting the horse with a whip, but he is applying pressure by making the horse work harder. He is giving the horse, ultimately, a 3 way choice: 1) go where I want, 2) work hard, 3) be punished for not moving...I would prefer a sharper correction. If the horse is NOT AFRAID and understands what is being asked, but doesn't feel like it, then one softens the horse to a cue by going from kissing sound to light squeeze to sharp smack - because DARN IT! You KNOW what is being asked!

A horse cannot learn confidence in himself and in his rider's judgment unless he goes places that tests both horse and rider - and most horses will be reluctant to try that test. The rider needs judgment and not ask too much of the horse too soon - which was a problem I often had with Mia. Her fears were deeper than I understood. But a horse who never has to handle a challenge will never learn to handle it.

In an ideal situation, you do NOT "make the wrong thing harder". If the horse exercises bad judgment, then the result of the bad judgment should be the "harder". Ideally, you've supplied a learning exercise where failing creates its own punishment. Then you just help the horse move on.

But ideal doesn't describe the world where I live. So yes, sometimes I have to be the one who provides the negative result. But what Ray Hunt is describing is just another form of negative result, and I think a horse will learn better if the negative result is both sharper (more memorable) and more immediate. In this example, Ray Hunt IS punishing the horse. But he is doing it in a mushy way that the horse may not connect with the undesirable behavior.

-----------------------------------------------

I continue to see no reason "punishment" - for disobeying a known rule - is wrong. I agree with Tom Roberts about not punishing when teaching a new concept. If the horse doesn't understand, then punishing him for not understanding is just dumb.

But if the horse knows the rule and breaks it, deliberately, then what is wrong with a quick, immediate, defined punishment? Maybe not with a horse like Trooper. Some horses are just very shy, as are some dogs. But while Mia was a sensitive horse, she understood a quick and proportionate punishment for simply refusing. It didn't put her in fight mode. It sure didn't make her upset with me! So...what was the downside? I never saw a sign Mia resented fair punishment. If it was out of proportion, in her mind, then yes.

But like Bandit, she fundamentally trusted humans in general and me in particular. While far more subtle than Bandit, they both never showed any sign of resentment, anger or fear from fair punishment.

So...why not accept that difference, and treat them different from how I treat Trooper (who, after 10 years, shows no sign of trusting me or liking me regardless)? The horse who is on the "no punishment" programs still hates to be near me, while the others (who are punished) seem to like hanging out with me.


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## AndyTheCornbread

Alder said:


> Okay well I'm just going to have to jump in here in response to AndyTheCornbread. You claim we are more intelligent because we send things to Mars and then go on to describe people who aren't intelligent enough to even read a horse.



Just because someone does not understand something or they have poor self discipline and poor character doesn't mean they lack the intelligence to learn it. E.g. I work with very intelligent clients who often have Ph.D.'s in their field but when I go to teach them something outside of their given field they often end up making very frustrating mistakes while they learn, as do we all at one time or another. It doesn't mean they lack intelligence, it just means they haven't become proficient with a given concept yet. Contrast this with an animal like a horse which has a tiny frontal lobe, it isn't that the horse doesn't yet understand the concept of respect, it is that it lacks the neurological capacity to ever understand it at all, along with other higher concepts like empathy and the ability to plan ahead etc. That's why horses don't hide their hay and save some for snack later where their pasture buddies can't find it.


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## gottatrot

> (@*Knave*):You all make me think too hard! Lol. I was left kind of thinking I didn’t explain myself well in my original response to this discipline thing, and then it continues on and makes me think more....
> 
> ...I guess I am trying to explain that there is a lot more of feeling than thinking. Hence why I don’t think about my level of discipline when I turn around...
> 
> ...However, most of the time even then 90% of the conversation I am having is feeling and not thinking.
> Now, I have social anxiety, and worry too much over my conversations with people. It makes them a lot less fun. I wonder if when I overthink what I said to someone it is the same as another overthinking what they said to a horse.


What I think I'm getting from your input is that you're intuitive and trust what you feel is right for the horse. So I'd say you are a person who is safe to not overthink things, but this _is_ based on your many years around horses so it feels natural and you have become in tune to what is needed and the correct timing. 

I don't always trust myself because I remember when I was first starting out that when I didn't know what to do, I would sometimes lose my temper and then become frustrated, and that would sometimes lead to me wondering if I should even be working with the horse. It was really just a lack of experience and knowledge, so I only had one tool and didn't know what to do if that didn't work. 

(This is not directed in anyone on here) - I've seen that people who only work within a narrow type of horse and horse personalities are likely to think solutions are simple. That is a different thing from knowing what the right thing to do is without thinking about it too much, because of experience, timing and feel. 



Hondo said:


> .
> So if you had kids, they'd never look at each other and say, "Uh oh, Mom's mad. We better do what she says", even though they had never experienced physical punishment?


I am sure you are right with this thought, although I have no talent for kids at all. Kids can have the same way of reading people that animals can, and I think that illustrates your point. However, they read me too well and I have never had the ability to assume a different role with kids other than peer. If I try to tell them what to do they think it is a joke and soon we are all in trouble. 

I can sympathize with some social anxiety, I also did not like to talk on the phone when I was younger. My job cured me, because I had to learn the art of talking to sick and angry people, and the most difficult of all, those sensitive, hair-trigger, rather un-subtle people known as doctors. It can be a real art to communicate with them. 



Dragoon said:


> Very interesting about the TB biting. I wonder if its a by-product of them growing up in a racing stable...not being able to move and socialize normally. Perhaps their mouths become their main outlet for their feelings.


This is why I love the conversations we have. Here is a gem that is so useful for me. 



egrogan said:


> In that vein, has anyone read the book _Are we smart enough to know how smart animals are?_


 @AndyTheCornbread, we kind of debate things here, so I'm not trying to be disrespectful of your thoughts. I've read this book, and I think it might open your eyes to how we've been taught that animals are less intelligent and have simpler thoughts than science is discovering to be true. The book points out that we often just did not know how to set up experiments to test how animals think, and the size of their brain or structure of it may not be as limiting as we have thought in the past.

I'm with those who've dealt with Arabs, and many other animals who have outsmarted me.

I'm going to break this post up because it seems long.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...If the horse is NOT AFRAID and understands what is being asked, but doesn't feel like it, then one softens the horse to a cue by going from kissing sound to light squeeze to sharp smack - because DARN IT! You KNOW what is being asked!
> 
> ...In an ideal situation, you do NOT "make the wrong thing harder". If the horse exercises bad judgment, then the result of the bad judgment should be the "harder". Ideally, you've supplied a learning exercise where failing creates its own punishment. Then you just help the horse move on...
> 
> ...But ideal doesn't describe the world where I live. ...


I'm not sure which parts of @bsms' post to highlight. It's very insightful. 

As to punishing an autistic child...I think we also should not generalize or underestimate intelligence or understanding just because it comes across differently. There may not always be an absolute for every individual. I notice that those who have worked with Arabs extensively categorize them as very smart, but I've heard many people describe them as dumb because they often are spooky and reactive. 

Even getting harder with a correction because a horse understands what you are asking and is saying "no," as @bsms describes...the right response depends on why the horse is saying no. If the horse is saying no because he physically can't, or is too afraid, that is a different thing from the horse saying no because he would rather be back at the barn eating hay. Or he's feeling too energetic to walk right now.

Why am I even discussing all of this? Because after owning Hero for a year, those other things like redirection and positive reinforcement are not working for him. 

Maybe my work analogies don't help others, but I was thinking today...an illness like pneumonia. 95% of the time someone comes in with pneumonia, you give an antibiotic, it clears up. That's to me like dealing with a typical horse behavior. You redirect the horse, show a better way, make it easier to comply, and it all shapes up nicely. 

Then there's the pneumonia that never clears up and the person keeps coming back and getting sicker. That is when all the other complicated factors come into play. That's when there's no easy answer. There is experimentation, where we have to figure out if the lung tissue is perhaps staying inflamed due to past exposure to some chemicals, so maybe a steroid will help, or if the heart and circulation are causing swelling in the lung tissues, or maybe there is cancerous tissue, etc. etc. 

That's where I think you have to go with horses sometimes, past the easy answers and into the "working theory" mode, where you test things against a likely model and see what actually helps.

My working theory for Hero right now is that he is insecure and covers this over with loud behavior. You see, I've been noticing that since I've been more aggressive with him, he has been more affectionate with me. 

Something I've noticed with track horses is that they can have a negative association with being groomed, and having people close in their private spaces. I like @Dragoon's thoughts about what it's like for them to grow up and have this little space to call their own, and the main outlet for nerves is their mouth. 

I've made Hero allow me to come in and handle and brush him while he's eating his hay, but he has always begrudgingly accepted it. This past week for the first time he has been seeming to enjoy some of the grooming, and has also been turning his head in to have it brushed, and lowering it when I put my arm around it. 

Tonight when I took the horses for a walk, Hero was going to start off bouncing but I got after him right away he just walked nicely. However, all of his energy wanted to come out of his mouth, and he started trying to fake bite at me. I got after him for this each time, starting with a yank on the halter and my voice, and several times I turned and came at him with aggressive body language, which made him back up hard and stand up tall. Once he earned an actual swat with the end of the lead rope on the shoulder. 

Then back at the barn in his pen, his eyes were softer than usual, even affectionate, and his body language was inviting me into his space and he seemed to enjoy the scratches and brushing with a lowered head. What I am wondering is if he is quite insecure, and when I strictly make him behave this actually helps him feel happier and more secure. 

There is a supervisor at my job, and he is a bit blustery. I've told some others that I believe he is insecure. Once I confronted him, and I swear I saw fear in his eyes before he got a bit loud, and I thought he was like a frightened horse that had to show excessive body language to fool others. People don't believe this, and think the guy is just a jerk. Which he is, but I think the underlying reason is insecurity. 

So I'm thinking Hero is like that, and that if I get a bit bossy with him, it might actually help him become more confident. That's my working theory right now. It certainly hasn't helped to give him redirection or to make it easier to drop the behavior. Horses don't like to do what is harder for them, so there must be an underlying reason I have not addressed yet.

Something kind of funny is that when I was correcting Hero and speaking to him harshly at times, Amore, the super sensitive horse was just standing to the side and yawning. She obviously understood what I was doing, and that none of it applied to her. You'd think with her sensitivity she would get upset, but she is smart too. I've very rarely even raised my voice at her, or done any real correction, because it rarely is useful for a horse like her.


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## Dragoon

Its not surprising at all that Amore was relaxed listening to Hero get in trouble! 
I'm not sure how many people try lunging four horses at once, but you really should give it a go. It is very interesting to see how the horses learn to sort out their reactions to each other AND you. They have to sort of re-learn who is leader. Even if they lunge perfectly on their own, when you add other horses, they all re-test everyone including the human. 
Free-lunging in the arena is how I exercised 'my' four horses last winter on days when outside turnout was no-go. (I am in Canada, lots of snow, ice, freezing rain or windstorms to not risk the ponies to. Our barn has no shelters in the pens) 

I had pylons set up in all four corners. No horse is allowed inside my square. They must go the speed I want, the direction I want and when I call for stop, all must stop and face me. 
They go in single file and mostly keep to a certain order. My own gelding is always first, and keeps the others from passing him. The TB mare is always last, she doesn't like horses behind her. The problem is the middle two, the haflinger and the nervous mare. Always jockeying for position. 
Anyways, my point is, when I stepped in to reprimand one of them, they knew who I meant! The nervous mare has a bad habit of rushing. I would lock eyes on the culprit and go 'Eh!!' And she would drop back a horse to get in proper order. And often, I would let my gelding reprimand them, especially the haflinger. He was such a brat in the beginning! Always bumping horses' butts with his nose. 

It got so that I could bring them all to a halt, and say 'Just the boys' or 'just the girls' and the two I looked at would move off while the other two would hang back against the wall. If you are not looking at them, they are content that you don't mean them. When I had to get 'mad' at one and make it hustle around the arena, the others just slowed right down and hung back to let the naughty horse run. They know body language so well nothing surprises me anymore!


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## knightrider

Quote by @gottatrot


> I like @Dragoon 's thoughts about what it's like for them to grow up and have this little space to call their own, and the main outlet for nerves is their mouth.


As soon as I read that original quote by @Dragoon about race horses, (which I couldn't find to quote), I thought about de-clawed cats. My mother always had her cats de-clawed and they all ended up biting. I've warned other people about getting their cats de-clawed, that it will cause them to start biting. Needless to say, I don't de-claw my cats.

It was certainly true in my experience working at Bowie Race Track, that the thoroughbreds loved to bite (and kick). It seemed they loved to hurt people, in fact, they seemed to live to hurt people. I always thought it was because they were fed so much high energy feed and then kept in stalls.

I love kids, almost as much as horses, if not more. As teachers, we were told many times that difficult kids thrive on structure and strictness. They crave it and love it. And I saw that to be true with many teachers . . . but it never worked for me. 

It took me many years to figure it out. I think being firm and strict just didn't suit my personality and temperament. I discovered that problem kids did much better for me when I joked with them, praised them, gave them little responsibilities, went to their houses, got to know their families, took them riding. For me, caring and involvement in their lives was what it took. 

Which all goes back to the topic we have been exploring--that certain riders have certain techniques that work best for them and certain horses do better with certain techniques that work for them. 

PS: You know what happened after I struggled and worked so hard to be successful with difficult kids? You can guess! Supervisors put all the most difficult kids in my classes--lotta work and not easy . . . and not really fair to the good hard-working kids . . . but that's how life goes.


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## Knave

That is what I meant Gotta. Not that I don’t think, because if I hit any issue I will analyze everything about it lol. You are right though in that I don’t usually overthink horses. I overthink absolutely everything else.  You are also right that it is probably because of experience that I don’t have to. 

I do think that horses are as different as people, and different things work. Often I react like @AndyTheCornbread, but sometimes it is like @bsms said too. Maybe horses like Amore do better with redirection, but horses like Hero require a little sternness in the moment. Sometimes you just have to get a job done too, and you don’t have time to redirect to that extent.

Of course, that said, I often regret pushing a horse through to get a job done, but other times it is probably the best thing in the long run too. It just depends. Pushing Bones through has always left negative results, and I always went into it realizing that when a job became more than I was prepared for. Zeus, who although stubborn is particularly good minded, does not often need redirection, but usually a harsh seeming discipline in the moment (remember when I say harsh it is not harsh to most). Luckily rarely does he need it. With anything that looks like a job he is simply happy to do it. Hopefully that continues along to real work, and he can be taught a lot by circumstances.

Cash also seems to learn best in a job environment, but unlike Zeus he cannot tolerate being in trouble very well. He is such a serious type of horse that it took me a while to figure that out. To be honest, his drafty style probably left me with some of the wrong assumptions to. He however seems to shine when I feel I have put him in a situation he was unprepared for. 

I guess I say all this to really say that horses are all different and we need to be versatile enough to transition ourselves.


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## bsms

Suppose I want a horse to head down a path. The first 100 yards of the path is very rocky and "Owwyy" - but then the path gets better and it is the shortest route home. Trooper, in that situation, will just be "a trooper" - he's got his orders and he does it without complaint. That isn't training so much as who he is, which is why he GOT the name "Trooper". Before he had ever been ridden, he just wanted to know what he was supposed to do and then he'd go do it. Unless you get pushy, when he then gets overwhelmed and may shut down mentally.

Bandit, OTOH, may look at that section of trail and reply, "Are you nuts! That will hurt!" And being the softest soled horse of my three, he's right. But he's also wrong, because he wants to get home too and there is no better route to take. ANY route will include significant rocks, and in the case I'm thinking of, the alternates were both longer and rockier. Bandit was looking at the immediate result without thinking about long-term goals.

So yes, I pushed him hard to get going. I wasn't interested in hearing no. It was in his best interest too, but he really isn't "smart enough" to know that. Horses don't think with linear logic. Linear logic can be bad, but it can also be very good. And once we got past the ouchy part, he was quite happy. But we had different ideas. Only one of us could get his way at that moment. And it was best for both of us if Bob got his way instead of Bandit.

Over time, Bandit has mostly learned to trust me in those spots. And I've learned to dismount more often if the footing might be painful, and I plan to order a slightly larger size of hoof boots for him. But...there are times where one of us needs to "win", and it would be bad to have Bandit win in a spot like that.

Of course, if we are looking at dropping into a wash and he strongly objects, he may know more than me. He may be smelling coyotes or javelina or his feet may be getting tired or he may have wrenched his back rolling pre-ride and want to save it. And if the horse is just afraid, really afraid, then it rarely helps to insist. At least, rarely with the Arabians and mustangs I've known. Less independent breeds might actually benefit from being pushed, if they remain calm enough to discover the person pushing knows more about possible dangers than they do.

If I could go back 11 years in time and start Mia all over, I would do a much better job. It would still be a challenge, but I'd be much better at reading her and knowing when she needed more space, emotionally, to handle things. But good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment, and my bad judgment then is why I would now approach things differently. There is no profit in beating myself up for not knowing then what I could not have known then...


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## phantomhorse13

AndyTheCornbread said:


> but punishing a horse is like punishing an autistic child. They just aren't going to understand so redirection is taking the kinder/higher and or more just road.


If you don't believe punishment is understood, how do you react in a situation where an aggressive act on the horse's part is putting you in immediate danger, such as a horse rushing into your space during feeding time, biting or striking?

I think there is a big difference between punishment/reprimanding and random beating (which normally is a result of human frustration). A horse that approaches a more dominant herd member while eating will find themselves on the receiving end of a negative reaction. If the horse didn't understand basic cause and effect, why would this herd behavior persist? Is that not a horse form of punishment?




AndyTheCornbread said:


> isn't that the horse doesn't yet understand the concept of respect, it is that it lacks the neurological capacity to ever understand it at all, along with other higher concepts like empathy


I am curious about what your definition of "respect" is. Someone in a previous post talked about an electric fence, how once the horse has learned that touching the fence is painful, they avoid touching it but aren't afraid of the fence. Is that not a basic form of respect?

I don't agree that horses lack the empathy. One afternoon, I came back from a ride to find Sultan pulling hay out of a haybag and turning around to offer it to George, who was looking out over the door of a stall. The stall door was supposed to be open, but something had happened to cause it to come loose and the wind had blown it shut. There was no hay in the stall and George couldn't reach the hay bags from inside. What would your explanation be as to why Sultan was offering George hay, if it wasn't being aware and reacting to the fact George was in jail and starving?




gottatrot said:


> Maybe my work analogies don't help others, but I was thinking today...an illness like pneumonia. 95% of the time someone comes in with pneumonia, you give an antibiotic, it clears up. That's to me like dealing with a typical horse behavior. You redirect the horse, show a better way, make it easier to comply, and it all shapes up nicely.
> 
> Then there's the pneumonia that never clears up and the person keeps coming back and getting sicker. That is when all the other complicated factors come into play. That's when there's no easy answer. There is experimentation, where we have to figure out if the lung tissue is perhaps staying inflamed due to past exposure to some chemicals, so maybe a steroid will help, or if the heart and circulation are causing swelling in the lung tissues, or maybe there is cancerous tissue, etc. etc.
> 
> That's where I think you have to go with horses sometimes, past the easy answers and into the "working theory" mode, where you test things against a likely model and see what actually helps.


I think this is a great analogy and is something all good trainers intrinsically understand. Not all animals have read the training manuals, so they need their own game plan.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> My working theory for Hero right now is that he is insecure and covers this over with loud behavior.



Is there any possibility that Hero is simply responding to the language that he knows and understands best as it being the predominant communication style that has been used with him?


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13 That was quite a story about one horse feeding another.


There is a horse on this ranch that came to the front door stamping her feet and leaving. The third time someone followed her to a gate where a horse was locked out of water and in very bad shape. She was a strange horse to the herd and Cloud Dancer stood guard over her for 2-3 days until the horse was strong enough to mingle with the herd.


Just not sure about the size of the frontal lobe. Temple Grandin tells a story about a bird that learned to spell n-u-t with out being taught spelling other that just the phonetics of the letters.


It amazed the researcher and the person furnishing the grant who was visiting.


After every demonstration the bird would say, Polly want a nut. Being in a hurry to show how much had been achieved, the researcher neglected to produce the rewarding nut.


Finally, "Polly want a N-U-T!" Polly got the nut. (forgot the actual name of the bird)


Forgot the breed of bird also, but I'm fairly certain the birds frontal lobes were much smaller than a horses.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> gottatrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> My working theory for Hero right now is that he is insecure and covers this over with loud behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any possibility that Hero is simply responding to the language that he knows and understands best as it being the predominant communication style that has been used with him?
Click to expand...

Interesting thought.

But even if that was the case to start with, don't you think Hero would have started to learn a different way since gotta has been working with him? Or maybe in certain situations he's stressed enough to be reverting to old habits (like people exclaiming in their native tongue when hurt or frightened)?


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## AndyTheCornbread

Here is a pretty good article on horse thought, autism, and it covers a little bit about Arabs being more intelligent than other horse breeds: https://www.equisearch.com/discoverhorses/whats-your-horse-thinking-23298

I was trying to find an article I had read before on Arabs having a larger prefrontal cortex than other horse breeds and so are capable of some simple logic. It was a scientific paper and I can't find it now unfortunately because I can't remember what publication it was in. Basically the conclusion was the same as Grandin's the larger the prefrontal cortex, the more intelligent the horse but also the more sensitive they are.


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## Knave

I haven’t read any of the books or articles mentioned, but I have no doubt regarding a large emotional intelligence as well as reasoning in a horse. Bones has a sense of humor. He over exaggerates himself to be funny, and if he can make someone laugh he doesn’t quit. Like a teenage boy it gets irritating, but it also makes me laugh. He is a display of pure emotion in everything he does. There is no questioning it. 

I think of it as a different way of thinking, and Biblically even I am reminded of it. I know most aren’t religious, so I won’t digress. 

I don’t assume my intelligence is any greater than anyone else’s, or anything for that matter. Like Einstein (I believe) said, “Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing it is stupid.”

There is a poem I heard once, I can’t remember it, of horses in the starting gate I believe, about their pure emotion and the riders harnessing that. That is Bones. 

I have seen a horse use logic continually with Keno, the mess made before me. He used brilliant thinking to evade my training. Constantly only a step behind me; it was a game of who could outsmart, and in the end I got rid of him. He was only a half step behind me then and I knew I would lose.

I don’t doubt the thinking of a horse. I don’t doubt the emotion of a horse. Of course, some are smarter than others. I think I would prefer a dumb sort to be honest. Lol. I know they are easier to show. I guess I would get fewer laughs if Bones was dumb.


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## SueC

I've been following a lot of the conversation logged off and am only really up to eat some rice cream and peaches, but I did want to put down a few thoughts on the debate about humans and intelligence, before returning to :ZZZ:.

Books like the one @egrogan referred to are asking questions that have been missing from the mainstream debate for a long time, and I applaud them for it.

World domination is not synonymous with intelligence, and it certainly isn't wisdom. Humans are an opportunistic species, as are rats, cockroaches etc - and I'm not referring to these other examples jeeringly; they too are biological species, and I'm using them to illustrate a point.

It's also often overlooked that the opposable thumb was as vital to the appearance of a Space Programme as the development of mathematical ability etc. Without the opposable thumb - a primate development for life in the trees - tool use would not have blossomed how it did, and tool use in turn affected the evolutionary development of the cerebrum.

On intelligence: For many decades, the standard IQ test was used as an indicator of general intelligence, but it really just measures a certain kind intelligence, especially certain types of logical/mathematical and spatial intelligence, while ignoring other, equally important sorts of intelligence, e.g. emotional intelligence, linguistic intelligence, kinaesthetic intelligence, naturalistic intelligence, existential intelligence, musical intelligence, creativity, lateral thinking, metacognition, etc.

The standard IQ test is a white European cultural construct which was incorrectly applied to try to measure the intelligence of people from other cultural backgrounds, and was for a long time used as "proof" that white Europeans are more intelligent than African peoples, Australian Aboriginal peoples, etc. Had white Europeans had their intelligence gauged by their performance in, for example, naturalistic intelligence valued in indigenous cultures around the world, then the shoe would have been on the other foot.

And it's a similar problem with the comparison of humans to other animals. All species that currently exist have survived through millions of years of natural selection, and all of them have been successful enough to persist, because well adapted to their particular niches. Those niches are now being destroyed by the sort of white colonial human attitude to nature - nature as a thing to be dominated and exploited, rather than a thing to be in harmony with - which, if not reassessed, will be the undoing of our species in the long run, as we are currently destroying one by one the strands of the very web of life that supports all living species - something that is decidedly unintelligent, and unwise.

Basically, the assessment of intelligence has been rather short-sighted historically, and almost circular - it always starts with looking in the mirror, for some reason, and assuming that what our culture, or our species more broadly, values is the be-all and end-all of the debate. We're starting to see past ill-conceived ideas of cultural superiority; now we need to see past ill-conceived ideas of human superiority, and an anthropocentric world view.

Australian Aboriginal culture did not give rise to the Space Programme, and our indigenous people in Australia have been much maligned. They weren't even officially counted as part of the human population in Australia until the 1967 referendum to recognise them as citizens. Many white people continue to think of them as inferior, but their culture has a thing or two to teach the mainstream Western culture about respecting nature, not soiling your own nest, and thinking in the long term - amongst other things.

Humans from our society have generally been pretty arrogant (and very wrong) in their assessment of humans from other cultures; and we're equally arrogant and equally wrong in many of our assumptions regarding non-human species.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing - as is hubris.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Interesting thought.
> 
> But even if that was the case to start with, don't you think Hero would have started to learn a different way since gotta has been working with him? Or maybe in certain situations he's stressed enough to be reverting to old habits (like people exclaiming in their native tongue when hurt or frightened)?



Well, I suspect it takes a quite long time for a horse to unlearn a language and then learn another.


That said, @gottatrot has done amazingly with Hero and continues.


But here's what really bothers me some. Trying to be soft and not to direct.


By @gottatrot 's own description, Hero was in a situation he was having difficulty dealing with in deep downhill sand over his knees. @gottatrot was on the phone not giving Hero the attention that SHE felt he should have been getting and also leaving more length of rein that she believes she should have when Hero turned and accidentally kicked her.


It was a serious situation that could have ended very badly and it was mandatory that whatever would work had to be summoned in order for her and Hero to both return to safety.


So the old harsher language that Hero was likely trained with worked to get them home. But prior to that he was coming along fine with the new language but not quite enough for the perilous situation they were in at the time.


So now it almost seems like Hero is being punished via his old language for something set in motion not by him but by the self described inattention of his handler.


And that doesn't seem fair.


Note: I would not be saying this if @gottatrot were not fully aware of the respect and admiration I do have for her knowledge and horsemanship.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> So the old harsher language that Hero was likely trained with worked to get them home. But prior to that he was coming along fine with the new language


But _was_ he coming along fine in the new language?

I don't personally think that having structure and limits is a bad thing - you just have to find the right level for each individual. Some people are great independent thinkers and can self-motivate while others need basic directions and yet others need someone to write them a detailed list and then hold their hand step by step.

I once had a teen who worked for me who was a brilliant guy, but lacked any sort of focus or direction. His parents were very nice people, but they seemed to behave more as friends than as any sort of authority figures. It came as no surprise that he was involved in things he shouldn't have been and eventually found himself in trouble. He wound up going into the military because it was that or jail.. and there, he finally found his place. He thrived in an environment that many would have considered harsh and controlling. He is still in the military to this day, which is many years past his required term, and openly says that was the best thing that ever happened to him.


Could Hero be the horse equivalent?


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## bsms

What indication is there that Hero finds louder or more physical language abusive? Bandit sure wouldn't! As best I can tell, that is just who Bandit is. Yell at Bandit and he just goes, "Oh, well, if THAT is how you feel..."

Do the same with Trooper and Trooper will melt.

Kind of like the difference between a Husky and a Border Collie.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> ...But here's what really bothers me some. Trying to be soft and not to direct....


I don't mind direct, I appreciate analysis. I want to look at things from many angles including ones that could show I'm doing it wrong. Things well worth doing should be able to hold up to scrutiny. It seems to me that one of the biggest issues we have with horses is loving the idea that our ideas are right. 

The way I see it, it's more like a mistake (my inattention and accident) highlighted that some things I was seeing as unchangeable with Hero (a need to hop, rear, squeal, kick and buck at times) due to a high energy level, are actually things he can control with the right level of communication/correction where he is hearing me and understanding that I want him to stop those things.

I do not regret that I gave Hero an extra long period with the benefit of the doubt, because he did have physical issues and I am not going to punish something that results from pain. But I'm seeing him moving well now, filling out muscle in areas that seem to show he is using his hind end more and more, seeing that the front wall of his hooves that were worn down from toe dragging seem to be growing out/getting closer to the ground. I stopped trying to correct him for bucking and etc when I realized he had the locking stifles.

Now I think he has this well established habit of doing the behaviors, which have continued as the initial reason for it has lessened. That very good article by Temple Grandin that @AndyTheCornbread posted talks about how horses are "super-splitters" which dogs are too, which means they make associations and notice very small details. I've understood that Hero associates bucking and kicking with unlocking his stifles and being able to move. 

He also seems to relate a number of physical activities with relieving stress and feeling better such as biting, rearing, hopping, kicking out and bucking. That is fine, but I would like to teach him to replace those rather extreme physical associations with instead noticing that moving out at a good trot or canter relieves his energy, things like that. He still reverts to those behaviors when he has any level of stress/anxiety or extra energy. 

I'm trying to break that cycle by stopping those, and seeing if I can teach him that even when he controls his behavior he is still fine and can be calm. This in the long run will be less work for him, which horses always prefer when possible. Amore didn't want to do extreme rodeo bucking every time she was frightened either, and when I was able to block that behavior she soon learned to reduce her stress in other ways. 

I'm not seeing negative consequences here, yet. I'll say that I do like the idea of always using positive reinforcement rather than negative, but I can't hold that idea so dear that I don't do what will be best in the long run. Hero has not had good solutions yet in his life; the track people must have had issues and just decided to wait and run him at five, to see if he outgrew things. The rescue kept trying to find him a home with experienced people, who all decided his issues were for someone else to deal with. I'm wanting him to become a better citizen, and am looking for real solutions for him. 

I like the dog analogy...it can be tricky too, because animals can be sensitive in one way and insensitive in another. As @Knave describes with Zeus. My Dalmatian seemed insensitive, and he was physically tough, but he was also sensitive emotionally. It took a lot to get through to him, but it had to be the right approach. Once I read a training book when I was teaching him to retrieve dumbbells, looking for a way to get him to release, because I couldn't get the dumbbell back. The book said to chuck the dog under the chin. I tried this, and my dog ran and hid under the house for a half hour. I apologized very much, and had to find a different way (taught him to trade out for a different "toy," then gradually made him wait longer for the substitute). 

My friend's draft is also sensitive, but seems insensitive because he responds slowly (he is over 17 hands). He had a trainer that was trying to make him follow commands instantly when she said to, and he would get super nervous about commands because he would get hit when he was still trying to respond. He was always trying to respond, but it just took awhile for the message to get to his brain, and then back down to his feet.


----------



## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> He was like, "Oh man, I messed up, please don't hurt me!" Which was a quite drastic reaction compared to normal.



Maybe now after working with Hero at higher scolding levels you would give this incident a different description/interpretation?


Thing is, I never ever want Hondo or any horse I care to be bonded with to think, "please don't hurt me".


But then the notion of a horse with some deeply ingrained habits due to bad handling and/or physical issues that just cannot be corrected by any other tried means does leave me pensating.


What can I say, Hero has come so far, he is obviously in very good hands. I'm betting those hands will revert to softer hands as Hero's old bad habits begin to fade.


Knave used the term "scolding" in her journal. I do that fairly often in an argumentative way with Hondo and consider it neither correction or punishment but rather just a form of communication. 



The meaning of words can sometimes be difficult to deal with. I quickly latched onto the word scolding for my own use.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Thing is, I never ever want Hondo or any horse I care to be bonded with to think, "please don't hurt me".
> 
> But then the notion of a horse with some deeply ingrained habits due to bad handling and/or physical issues that just cannot be corrected by any other tried means does leave me pensating.


I had to think about this awhile...it's not about fear, and I don't necessarily like the much overused word respect. But most animals that are very large are taught when they are very small that they can be handled and made to do things. Those that are taught too well that nothing and no one can hurt them can become too dangerous to handle easily.

We might take this for granted a bit, but when you run across a horse or dog that doesn't believe they can be hurt, I think sometimes they need to believe that you could harm them if you wished to. Sometimes you want a horse to believe you have a mysterious power, so big it's more powerful than what a large horse can bring, especially because they don't understand it. 

I don't want a horse to be afraid of me, but I do want a horse to believe that I can bring more power to the table or ability to make them do things than they can overpower with force. I want them to be bluffed, so they don't feel they could just fight and win. Most horses come to us with this belief already. 
I've come across several that did not have this belief, and needed to learn that people could control them at times.

So I don't want a horse to be afraid of me, but if a horse for example looks at my head and picks up a hind hoof to kick me with it, I want them to believe that I could hurt them if I wanted to. Some behaviors must be curtailed.

It's not only due to bad handling either, because the horse Bibi I used to know came as a very small and unhandled horse with the tendency to believe she had the birthright of bossing around every creature in the world. Even with no bad handling, she was used to dominating horses much larger than herself with teeth and hoof, and immediately tried applying these methods to humans. We had to make her believe that we could make her move her feet, stop her from biting, stop her from kicking, and handle her without having her trying constantly to hurt us. 

This required trying to make her insecure, which was quite a feat. We needed her to have even the smallest belief that we could hurt her if we wanted to. She did not believe that at all, at first, basically her attitude was that if another horse threatened her, she'd hurt them so badly they'd never try again. But one thing horses can't do is sting you with the end of a lunge whip when you are out of reach, and then control you with a rope so you can't fight back. 

This was something that had to be done, and I don't know of any other way to teach a horse that is very aggressive. They have to be made to accept handling at first, before you can show them the positives of friendship. Horses like this often don't have friends that mutually groom them or etc, as everyone stays far away.

For most horses, they start out unhandled with fear of humans as a predator, and overcoming the fear can be done very gently and positively. Horses that start out unhandled with no fear, may need to learn some fear. 

But again, you need to understand the horse's motivations. Was the horse in the movie "Buck" aggressive, or was he fearful due to having been living with super aggressive stallions? Was he being protective or trying to be assertive? A horse that is being protective needs to feel safe, and a horse that is being aggressive needs to feel insecure and understand that humans are more powerful than they may appear. 

Hero is not really being aggressive or protective, when he acts up, I don't think. He's dealing with stress in inappropriate ways. I'm asking him to learn to control that behavior, but he can't seem to hear me telling him to try to do that until I get "loud." I can promise he is not going to become afraid of me, but he may on occasion get nervous about what I am going to do, which may be what is necessary to get his attention when he's going all bonkers.


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## bsms

I took Bandit out alone in the desert today. Due to a lot of things, I doubt I've ridden him 4 times since the beginning of December. As we headed away from home, into the desert, he was doing very well. When I turned him around toward home, a bunch of wind gusts hit us. Don't know if it was the wind, if he heard Trooper squealing, or if he just wanted to get home fast. But he started dancing around, tossing his head, twisting, prancing and very full of himself. I got him briefly stopped, did a high speed dismount...and started to lead him back into the desert. He didn't like that at all, and while he didn't bite me, he made it clear (I believe) that he would if I didn't back down.

I went ballistic. Got in his face and marched him backwards, fast, ready to slug him if he tried to bite. Bandit quickly realized he had opened a full can of Whoop Azz Chili. Had be been one of those horses who didn't think a human was potentially dangerous, he might have tried to kill me. Instead, he backed up at high speed and made it clear he had reconsidered his position!








There was a spot near by where ATVs had done donuts in the desert, so I led him around and around and around, in the desert, until he started to calm down. Then led him home.

On the way home, he nuzzled my arm. NOT a biting motion. World of difference. More like, "_Hey, we can be friends, still, can't we?_" And I said yes and rubbed his face. When we got home I mounted up and we rode a little. When I've ridden maybe once a month for the previous three months was not the time to challenge him from the saddle, and maybe I was pushing him too far...but he acted fine HEADING OUT. It wasn't until we turned for home that he went nutsy-kookoo on me.

But yes, I was glad he assumed a human can be a formidable opponent! Mia was like that too. Mostly she was a very sweet mare, but every once in a while, she NEEDED someone to go hoof-to-toe with her and make it clear the human was NOT afraid or intimidated.

I'm not big on dominating horses, but that linear logic things means I really AM smarter than Bandit in many ways. He was not in any danger at all from being ridden at a walk or trot down a dirt road he's been on hundreds of times before. That linear logic thing makes me about 99.99% certain that Bandit WOULD survive just fine and starting to spin and hop around was not helpful, not necessary, and was indeed counterproductive to safety.

I'm very certain that backing down, acting afraid of him, worrying about him biting me, etc would not help either of us. I feel no guilt. And Bandit, once he was back to feeling good, did not resent me. He just wanted to be friends again. My behavior would have melted Trooper down. It was fine for Mia or Bandit. If I thought I had a horse who would literally attack instead, I'd shoot him. Too many nice horses to take a chance on having my face ripped off by a horse who knew no limits.


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## gottatrot

It's interesting how different horses can be to work with. I was reading on @DanteDressageNerd's journal how she asked her horse to behave, nicely, he tried to strike her, she asked him to back up as a correction, and then he was gone (broke free). He is a very high level of difficulty. 

Nala's rider has been not feeling well for a month, but she was finally up for a ride today. We took out Hero and Nala together, planning to meet up with two other riders on the beach. 

I mentioned that regretfully I'd have to see how much my knee would take, so had no idea if we could go very far before I needed to turn around. Also I explained that I was planning to be more stern and disciplined with Hero, and asked her to let me know if Nala seemed upset at all by my voice or our actions.

Nala had not been out on the beach in two months. As you know, she is quite hot, so I understood that it might be a skillful ride. It goes without saying that Nala's rider is uncommonly brave, and also an very excellent rider. Anyone could watch her on some of my videos and see a demonstration of great riding.

Off we went. Hero was very good, walking straight out without a fuss. Unfortunately, the elk were spread over the top of the dunes, so we had to take a little detour to get down to the beach. The sand in the steep dune going down was deep and soft, as it has been lately, so I explained clearly to Hero that he was going to walk down nicely, which he managed to do after a couple bobbles where he thought about spinning back or hopping. Nala was not bothered by my harsh tone, her rider said.

On the beach things were OK, except Hero was a bit tense and clearly looking for things to jump about. I told Nala's rider that I never corrected my Arabs for spooking, but this was Hero focusing hard on objects, waiting for them to do something, and then jumping. He spooked at the sandpipers twice, as they ran around and flew over the sand, and I used a harsh voice to refocus him, and swatted him when he jumped. He was feeling hot and not paying attention, and wanting to let out the energy.

We trotted out and lessened the energy, watching for the other riders who we did not see on the beach. Nala was very hot, hopping and jumping but not spooking, and we had a job getting both horses to settle. Nala put a front hoof down just short of a shell she decided was suspicious, and then spun a 360 around that hoof. This made Hero stop dead (we were trotting), and I bonked down from my two point with my chin somewhere around his ears, then landed back in the saddle. Thankfully he has a long neck.

We walked a bit, then trotted more, and after a couple miles my knee was aching up to my hip so I said we should turn around. On the way back, the horses wanted to be even hotter, and Hero had a couple lessons. He was allowed to trot if he didn't start charging off or hopping or kicking out, otherwise he got the harsh voice, pulled up, and made to walk. Just walk. If he was able to calm, we'd trot again, and finally he was seeing the reward of trotting nicely. 

I also told him no if he tried groaning or squealing, which I was taking as complaints about the work, which he was tolerating very well no matter what he thought. When he started focusing on a dog, and hopping around just because a truck was red, I also made him shorten right up, refocus and behave. 

Well, there was an elk standing silhouetted on top of the dune, and Nala was very concerned about this, just as we found the other two riders who had gone north instead of south, right near our beach access point. Hero got quite excited about seeing the other horses, but Nala, still staring at the elk started zooming sideways, and then Hero was hopping around in circles and backward, and I had to get after him and make him stand.

Before that happened we had a bit of danger with two horses zooming backward and sideways with the difficulty of keeping them from crashing into one another, and (I envisioned) then kicking each other defensively. I was able to stay clear. We apologized to the other riders but explained about my knee, and they said their horses were not fit anyway, so were ready to head back. I don't think they wanted to tangle with us anyway right then.

Up the dune we went, I explained to Hero in a firm voice that he was going to walk very nicely up the dune, and so he did. The elk were everywhere and staring at us, trying to follow and we kept them at a large distance. Hero got a bit hot again, and I wondered if he would act up once we got past them, which he did. That was the only point where we were going up, down and backwards in a tight space between trees, and I was staying strong and reprimanding him while bearing in mind I needed to keep the level of his excitement below this:









I always bear in mind the explosion point of a horse, hoping to never reach it with Hero. I could feel we were quite up there energy-wise, but at the moment he started rearing I got VERY loud and smacked him, and he started bringing the energy back down, got halfway up again energy-wise a few yards later, we repeated the process, and then I brought him back down to calm walking. He was quite good all the rest of the way home, and I was proud of him, especially because Nala randomly jumped skyward just as we were entering the home field.









She does an entire jump course on some rides, but it's all imaginary. 

The ride went very well, I'd say, considering. We did just a few canter strides, and I praised Hero very much because there was _no bucking_ at all. I did not want to try much, due to my knee still being sore. Bearing in mind that Nala was super hot and hadn't been out in two months, there were no truly dangerous incidents. I've often been on spring rides with others whose horses are very hot and have not been out lately, and it's been quite dicey at times, or someone has been injured.
It was very good to get the horses out for a nice work, and they did sweat a bit.


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## Knave

I am glad you got to go on a ride with Nala’s rider and that you managed through it.

I was trying to think about the ride and your struggles. Although my discipline is hard with Zeus, I think I let a lot of things slide I guess. I would worry that it would get to be too much asking them to be on constantly.

I don’t know what I’m thinking really. When we are actively struggling with something like you are we have rides where we ask for everything to be perfect, but they are also constant in keeping the attention of the horse. Like it would be a ride that was intense with the horse not having much time to think of anything else. Lope here, stop, back up, turn back... like there isn’t time for it to be otherwise. 

Those rides are rare and well deserved when they happen. So, while I might think Hero deserves a ride similar, I am just not sure it will work in that environment to ask for no
mistakes. 

Don’t think that I am being disrespectful, because I fully understand your thought process and it could work for you. I just wanted to give you another idea I guess for a way to go if it doesn’t work.


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## gottatrot

Good advice, @Knave. I think I understand what you mean, basically try to make the ride so busy that the horse has no time to think of other things. 
That used to be the only way I could train my Dalmatian, because he was super high energy and easily distracted. So I'd do short, super intense sessions where I changed directions constantly and asked for new things, and it worked very well for him.

I tried doing that with Amore some and it would blow up her brain, terrible results. Adding more cues didn't help her focus, it made her crazy. Hero I think could tolerate it, and I was doing a little of it on our ride home yesterday, having him turn serpentines off a straight line and such, making him follow cues. But not as intense as you are describing.

Nala's rider was thinking about taking us to an arena one of these week nights when they have an open riding time at the fairgrounds. I could try doing some of that there, maybe having periods where he could relax if he was calm enough in the environment, and then short sessions where he just had to focus and do everything right that I asked.
I think the biggest issue for me would be the stamina required to do it on the beach for an hour or so (for the rider).
Also I have to be careful not to overtire Hero or he gets too crabby to think rather than relaxed.

Here is the only pic I got from the ride yesterday (meaning, Nala's rider got - sometimes I feel it is unfair I rarely get photos for others, but it does seem justified that I don't pull out my phone when I know distractions can be dangerous). 
I think I see improvements in Hero's walking stride and his neck is looking well, also his hindquarters are rounding over the top more.


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## Knave

It is a beautiful picture!

Yes, it kind of hops them up a bit at times. It is rare the times I’ve had to do it. Bones is like Amore and it does nothing but make matters worse. Lol.


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## gottatrot

Nala's rider posted another pic she got of a moment in time on our last ride...
It would appear that I am riding in rollkur, LOL.

The elk is visible on the dune, the cause of most of the trouble.

The two grooves in the sand in front of Hero's front hooves are some sort of slide backward and I have shortened my reins rapidly in an attempt to make contact with him in this somewhat evasive position. While it might appear that I am pulling Hero down into this position, he has actually dived down here and come back rapidly, and I am trying to get contact in case the front end goes down more and the hind end pops up. 
My left leg is back and my right rein open, trying to push his hind end over away from Nala, since all of this dancing that caused the hoofprints in the sand is happening rapidly. Hero made all of those in about ten seconds. As you can see by the hoof prints, we did not come to this spot by walking forwards. I am probably saying something about all of this to Hero.

What I don't understand is how Nala's rider is taking a picture, as you can see I am fully occupied, but perhaps that is why we came close to colliding a couple times. :smile:
If I remember correctly, my maneuvers pushed Hero's hind over, his head came up, I relaxed the reins and we were able to stand for a few moments. Whew.
Anyway, thought it was kind of a funny shot, and you can see Hero is looking healthy.


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## Knave

I love that you can see the elk on the ridge! What a good photo! You look so chill while his eyes are rolling! I can’t imagine the elk you guys have! Elk around here don’t behave so badly. Lol

ETA: He does look healthy. He is so shiny right now!


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## gottatrot

I moved this quote over from @SueC's journal, didn't want to keep going on about oats over there and clogging it up. 


Knave said:


> I am on the oat boat. Lol. I get what you are saying @gottatrot , but it confuses me a bit too because I think oats are much less a candy bar than corn or three way of course. I think of them as cold calories, and Bones for sure did better transferring, although I’m not sure any other horse showed actual effect of anything different in changing as they really don’t get much.
> 
> I think they are probably fine without anything, but when I am working hard and long hours I think it is nice in my mind for them to have the extra calories. Bones, for the last couple years, was usually loping around seven miles a day in summer besides working a cow or some sort of more specific training, and working long miles in fall. Spring is mostly shorter work days and winter just was short upkeep rides (not bad ground most of the time those last couple years).
> 
> So, say in fall when he is out working with me for the whole day, I feel like the excess is a good thing. Until now he has always been hard. That is what my grandpa called a horse in good health and yet very fit. He was for me probably the most fit horse I have ridden.
> 
> Now, maybe in towns were horses retired after a couple years, but that isn’t the history I know from around here. It was about the same as it is now, although I know the general horses had more work. Their care was important, just like it is important now. I know they used oats for the calories, but they probably would have used whatever they could get. So, if three way was a thing they would have used it. Things weren’t as over analyzed usually.
> 
> ...It is likely I have just become attached to tradition, but it does make me feel good to give a horse a scoop of grain before I use him. I like the oats better than three-way, which is what is common around here...
> 
> My husband gives oats after he rides instead of before. It isn’t because he thinks anything about the nutrition of it, but because he says they didn’t earn them until the ride is over.


Anyway, I'll just add a couple more thoughts. First, I wanted to be clear that I don't think giving a small amount of oats is harmful any more than I disagree with giving horses a couple carrots for a snack. Also I wasn't trying to say horses shouldn't be fed extra calories for hard work. 

Since I am a nerd, I'll just share a few things I learned/thought through in my struggles with Halla and working her hard, keeping weight on her, and health issues.

If you're feeding a very small amount of oats, like a pound or so (about a quart scoop), there's not a lot to worry about. I believe this is more like a treat for the horse. However, people may overestimate what they are providing, since this is the equivalent of about 1,200 calories. That's not really enough to make up for hard work, which can increase a horse's requirements by 10,000 calories a day or more. Most horses are going to by necessity make that energy up by eating a lot more hay, rather than replacing those calories with just a little grain.

So I think people may feel good about feeding some extra feed, but whether making that little bit come from oats or "hard feed" is not necessarily critical. For example, a horse could easily make up those same calories in the same quick amount of time without grain by eating a pound and a half of hay pellets or alfalfa pellets, another pelleted low NSC complete feed, or beet pulp.

But something to consider if you're nerdy like me, is that if you give an occasional treat of oats rather than feeding them every day, the horse is not going to digest them as well (or get as many calories) as he would from the same amount of calories from roughage such as hay or hay pellets.

That's because grain (even considering oats are more digestible compared to other grains when fed on a daily basis) requires a different intestinal balance to digest than hay and roughage. The bacteria that digest grain in the intestines are different from the bacteria that digest roughage. The horse's system will adjust over time to allow more of those grain digesting bacteria to thrive, if you feed more grain. But until that happens, the horse's system is set up to digest the hay so more grain will pass through unused. This is probably a safety mechanism to help the horse if they come across a sudden influx of grain in the diet that might otherwise give them laminitis.

So a complication I ran across when feeding Halla, without understanding it, was that once you get above feeding the amount of grain that might be considered a snack, you will need to feed more and more grain to the horse. Halla was working so hard, and was thin (two or three times a week we'd go about 8 miles in an hr, gallop a couple, trot/canter about four, walk a couple - that's fast and hard work). She wouldn't eat a ton of long stem hay. So I fed oats, and she put on some weight . This was encouraging, so I feed more oats, and eventually her system switched over so her bacteria was more adapted to digesting grain and was not digesting hay well. So she stopped digesting the roughages in her diet, and then I needed to feed a lot more grain to keep weight on her. 

This can become an economical problem for some people, which I've seen around here. They feed a very low quality hay, because of the initial cost when buying ten tons or so. They think they'll make up the difference in nutrition with some grain. But then the horses don't get much value out of the hay, and they end up feeding more and more grain, which ends up being more expensive than if they'd just fed more or better hay instead. Of course if you don't have access to good hay, people may have to feed roughage in a different way such as pellets, cubes or roughage complete feeds like @bsms.

When I eventually was forced to stop feeding Halla oats after her laminitis, I thought she'd starve to death. Instead, her system switched back after a time so it could digest hay again, and then she was able to get the calories she needed out of hay and hay pellets. Knowing what I know now, I would never have fed oats but would have given her extra calories from what would have been more efficient in her system (hay pellets, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, or even extra fat).

One more thing that I ran into with oats. If you feed more than a little, the high phosphorus levels start to become an issue. When I was using FeedXL to try to balance the diet, adding more oats meant the phosphorus levels were high enough that I had to add a bunch of calcium. If you feed too much phosphorus, it binds the calcium so the horse can't use it. The last thing you want in a hard exercising horse is weak bones or teeth. Alfalfa is high in calcium, so feeding alfalfa with oats can potentially create a balance. However, I've had to wonder if some racehorse bone fractures may be related to an inattention to nutrition, i.e. feeding pounds of oats with grass hay rather than alfalfa and not supplementing calcium (which is what I had to do since Halla didn't care for alfalfa).

In summary: My opinion is that oats are a fine snack. For calorie supplementation they are overrated, since the horse will most likely get more useful calories from just being fed more roughage he can easily digest. Roughages are available in many pelleted forms for portability or quick feeding nowadays.
Feeding higher quantities of oats is rife with problems, even for horses not prone to laminitis. 
If your only choices are oats versus corn/oat/barley mix, go for oats.

That is your nerd bulletin of the day. :smile:


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## SueC

Thank you for your nerd bulletin. I agree with some of what you say, but not all of it. I'm happy to discuss my own experiences using oats further - including issues I've seen with racehorses when they get what I consider too much - which is a lot more than what you consider a lot. But, I wouldn't want to clog your journal up with boring stuff! ;-)


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## AndyTheCornbread

I feed alfalfa pellets with a small amount of oats each night for warmth calories during the night. Not enough to make them hot the following day temperament wise but enough to keep them warm fermenting in their gut for the evening. My vet sets the amount, it is usually 2 - 4 cups worth depending on the horse. I also feed ground flax seed and flax oil for heat-less calories in the older horses I have that have trouble keeping weight on. I have never seen anything put weight on a horse as well as ground flax seed and flax oil. According to my equine vet it is the best way to get no inflammation along with weight gainer cold calories. I do the alfalfa pellets one so my horses know what they are when we go camping in places with no graze or bad weeds and two, to balance out any phosphorus issues but with the amount of oats I feed phosphorus probably isn't as much a true issue as it is more a precautionary measure.


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## AndyTheCornbread

I should probably mention that, the above is just what I feed as supplemental feed each night along with their minerals. They get all day 24/7 access to good pure grass hay so they can munch at their own pace all day long. I use a three grass blend of crested wheat grass, pubescent wheat grass, and intermediate wheat grass in three of the fields and the other field is pubescent wheat grass, intermediate wheat grass and smooth brome.


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## Hondo

Crap! I'm trying to take a break but I can't stay out of this.


Remember "its the pounds not the miles"? We did a lot of pm'ing quite a while back about a nutrition course he took. One comment was that it took 10 years of feeding 10 pounds of oats per day to kill Secretariat.Yes, that' what killed him.


There should never ever ever, did I say never ever ever, be a quantity of starch or sugar in the horses diet that cannot be digested in the fore-gut. Period. Period. Period. Did I say period?


ANY, yes ANY, undigested NSC that enters the hindgut plays havoc with the pH of the hind gut resulting in the death of microbes designed to digest the compost pile in the hind gut. The death of these microbes produce a toxin that damages the hind gut wall and allows the toxins to enter the blood stream.


Now the hoof capsule grows down the coffin bone while remaining firmly attached with super super super glue. Ever wonder how the heck it does this?


Well: When the time comes, the horse produces a chemical that weakens the super super glue a tiny tiny tiny bit allowing the hoof capsule to slip a tiny tiny tiny bit. Then here comes the super super glue back.


These toxins that enter the bloodstream holler, "Ok Charlie, open up the slip chemicals! Let'er rip! Wide open!"


Then we have the number two cause of horse fatalities behind colic. Rotation. Sinker. Founder.


Ok. Maybe a little bit might be alright?


Sure. Go ahead. Just keep a box of Kleenex handy. You may need them.


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## gottatrot

@AndyTheCornbread, I don't think you need to worry at all about the phosphorus feeding that amount of oats. It is a very tiny percentage of the horse's diet. Sounds like you have good diets for your horses.



SueC said:


> Thank you for your nerd bulletin. I agree with some of what you say, but not all of it. I'm happy to discuss my own experiences using oats further - including issues I've seen with racehorses when they get what I consider too much - which is a lot more than what you consider a lot. But, I wouldn't want to clog your journal up with boring stuff! ;-)


This is interesting to me, since I plan on having more hard working horses in the future. 
I do consider that I fed a lot of oats - Halla was eating ten pounds a day for awhile, although I have heard racehorses might eat fifteen pounds a day or even more. 
How would it be possible that a racehorse working for an hour a day (and sitting in a stall the majority of the time) would require thousands more calories than an endurance horse working for twelve hours? Is an Arab truly that more efficient? 

Or does the racehorse just have an adjusted digestive system that can barely digest hay, so while they believe they are needing to feed 50% or so of the calories from the oats, the horse is actually deriving nearly all the calories from the oats because that is the only thing he is digesting due to what bacteria can live in that acidic gut? The information we have about horse digestion would suggest they are far overestimating the amount of calories the horse is requiring, because the horse is unable to digest a lot of it. 

I do understand that racehorses are not fed hay at times due to wanting them to be lighter (not retaining pounds of feed in the intestines) so they run faster. Regardless of whether that is detrimental to the horse's health. So it's not like they would transfer racehorses over to hay pellets and roughage based diet. However, it is interesting to think about. 

I used to be very skeptical about whether horses could sustain a good weight and energy level without grain, but it's been well proven that horses can maintain heavy levels of work on diets that consist of only roughage and/or added fats. 

One issue that endurance horses can run into is low blood glucose after sustained exercise. Horses also take longer to restore glycogen stores to muscles, as long as a few days after an endurance ride. Just because the horse can be loaded up and ready for the work with a roughage diet, it doesn't mean they can sustain hard work only on their glycogen stores. It's becoming popular to give simple carbs like glucose or honey during rides to help with the quick energy, so the horse doesn't have to try to digest grain but also has access to glucose in the blood.


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## Knave

I feed a little less that a scoop of oats to whoever I am riding daily, or about a quarter scoop as a treat to the others when saddling. Zeus gets a bit less because I think he gets fat from the air he breathes.

Our horse hay is rotated to what we are feeding at the time. Currently it is a rotation between an oat hay and timothy. Often they are on second crop alfalfa, but Bones has seemed to have developed an allergy to alfalfa. This isn’t much skin of my back yet, because everyone likes horses more when they are not eating alfalfa, but may become an issue as we run out of the oat hay. I told them to stop selling that crop, but that isn’t my call. Lol 

In the fall they get turned out on crested wheat sections. It is nice clean up around the yard and good for both the crested and the horses, but only covers about a month. 

They get salt but not minerals. They are all healthy, although at times a bit overweight. This of course is an issue when horses are turned out together, because some are easy keepers and some are not. Hence the fat baby Zeus.


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## SueC

I did want you to know that hay was considered the basis of horse feed in the oat-supplemented racehorse feeding situations I was involved with all my life, and that if a horse went off its hay, it would be considered to be overworked, and given time off, and then resumed at a lower level. Going off the hay is a danger signal, and when that happens, you cut back on work until the horse eats its full ration of hay again, and increase its workload more gradually, and hopefully never overwork it again. Oats in our situation weren't given to keep weight on horses, but to help horses sprint, and to stand up to hard work. When a horse goes off its hay, and loses weight, in a racing situation, it is stressed out, and the stress needs to be reduced. When a horse is stressed out, its digestion is impaired. Also, there was no laminitis / foot tenderness in my parents' racing stables in 35 years of feeding oats at higher quantities than I personally would, and there were no metabolic issues. We had one horse that was bought in with low-grade laminitis (Romeo), and he'd been stressed out at his previous trainer's with an electric whip and all sorts of other stuff. He improved with us, and he was getting oats too, at the standard rate for the premises. That style of feeding is also the norm for the harness racing stables the French Trotter mare came from in Germany, and she had excellent feet and no metabolic issues. I don't consider oats a treat, I consider it a feed (unless you're dealing with horses who already have metabolic issues), and for good reasons, and with decades of observation behind it.


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## Knave

I guess I should include that too. We haven’t had any lamitis excepting a mare when I was young. She wasn’t fed oats either like I do now, and I don’t think she was ever fat. After being turned out on the mountain for a time frame she never had another issue. She lived to be an old mare, and was retired from showing due to a hatred of showing. She was used mostly as a broodmare and some of the time as a team roping horse and ranch horse, although she never traveled well to town. She is the mother of three of my parent’s current horses. They all are as, or almost as athletic as her, but not as hot. He feeds three-way when he rides, and still doesn’t have issues.

I never heard my grandfather talk about anything foundering either, and I know he fed oats. He fed his work horses and riding horses oats.


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## SueC

...and I'd never in a blue fit have fed as much oats to my Arabian mare as your mare got, or kept working her hard, or at all, if she was losing weight. They're not sprint training all the time in trails and endurance, and Arabians are susceptible to metabolic issues - especially Arabian mares. I don't think it's fair to scapegoat oats for what appears to me to have been a multifactorial management problem. I'm not super comfortable telling you this because I care about your feelings and what happened to Valhalla really upset you, for good reasons. I'm really sorry that happened to your mare. But I'm also not going to stand by and have people say that oats aren't a good horse feed, when they've been a good horse feed for us in my entire experience stretching back to Europe, and we don't have any of the issues in our horses for which oats are usually blamed - 30 performance horses in 35 years. If horses are happy and healthy and performing well, and not getting stressed or losing weight or getting ill or fat on what you're feeding them, you don't have an issue with what you are feeding. My beef at my parents' place wasn't the feeding (in general), it was the lack of herd life for the horses, and the over-sedentary lives that were imposed on them when they weren't specifically exercised by humans.

Nutrition is a complex subject, and both in human and horse nutrition, one of the main problems in the studies is that the variables aren't properly controlled - and they're hard to control. Another is that nutrition studies are mostly industry funded. That's why margarine was touted as healthier than butter by health departments here since the 1980s. "Studies", funded by industry, backed it up. 20 years later, people on margarine and other trans-fats (at the time, margarines were chockers with these) started getting retinal detachments, heart disease, and other serious illnesses at over and above the rate people had been getting that on butter. And don't get me started on the low-fat advice that was touted for 30+ years, and still is - and just look at what's happened to all the indicators since people have gone low-fat. Obesity is now through the roof, as are a whole swag of other diseases. Good one, nutrition research!

So for me, and for my animals, I do what works, and gets us healthy, no matter what "experts" say on the matter.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> ...But I'm also not going to stand by and have people say that oats aren't a good horse feed, when they've been a good horse feed for us in my entire experience stretching back to Europe, and we don't have any of the issues in our horses for which oats are usually blamed - 30 performance horses in 35 years. If horses are happy and healthy and performing well, and not getting stressed or losing weight or getting ill or fat on what you're feeding them, you don't have an issue with what you are feeding...


I apologize, when I started discussing this, I didn't realize that this would be controversial for anyone or could be taken personally in any way. It was not my intent to critique someone else's past practices. I sensed you didn't want to go into it for some reason (assumed it wasn't interesting), so brought it back to my thread. But I didn't understand that my criticism of a horse feed could also be construed as a personal criticism.



SueC said:


> ...and I'd never in a blue fit have fed as much oats to my Arabian mare as your mare got, or kept working her hard, or at all, if she was losing weight. They're not sprint training all the time in trails and endurance, and Arabians are susceptible to metabolic issues - especially Arabian mares. I don't think it's fair to scapegoat oats for what appears to me to have been a multifactorial management problem. I'm not super comfortable telling you this because I care about your feelings and what happened to Valhalla really upset you, for good reasons. I'm really sorry that happened to your mare.


I don't mind at all to have you express another perspective, honestly. I'm not sensitive and think you are perceiving the situation a certain way because of how I've condensed some of the information. 

If you notice, I haven't said I blame oats for Halla's condition. Rather, I learned that I was creating an acidic hindgut that was not helping her digestion, and most likely contributed to her health issues. How much, I don't know. Certainly the next year when she foundered there was no obvious dietary influence, so the oats could not carry blame then. 

The first time she had laminitis and foundered I thought it must have been due to acidic hindgut from feeding too many oats, leaky gut, etc since she was tested negative for metabolic syndrome, no Cushing's or IR. Now I believe it was a more likely an unknown internal disease process such as a tumor. I honestly don't believe it was preventable, since it also happened again after she was on no grains of any kind for a year. 

However, reading so much about oats _due to her issues_ is what led me to believe they were not the best feed. That's when I realized I'd had to increase them little by little over a period of months, even though she wasn't eating less hay than before, even though her workload wasn't changing, so it was apparent that she wasn't getting as much caloric value from the hay. This digestive issue I can definitely pinpoint to the oats, since after I stopped them and put her on hay pellets, she was soon able to maintain weight on only a couple pounds of low calorie hay pellets, and the same amount of hay as before. 

It makes logical sense when thought of in the context of how any grain reaching the hindgut creates an environment which acid-loving bacteria thrive in, and kills off the fiber digesting bacteria. Yes, nutrition is complex, but a lot of the horse digestive processes are pretty well understood. Not everyone loves studies, but there was one that showed horses from the same breed, age and sex developed different levels of lactic acid when their diet was changed, so it's not necessarily possible to tell what horses might be at risk.

The reason I arrived at feeding ten pounds of oats to Halla was because I was happy with her energy and appearance, she liked the flavor well enough to eat that much, and because I'd heard other people say they'd fed oats for years with no problems, and that oats were actually a wonderful feed. I decided as long as she didn't get overweight, she was burning off any ill effects from elevated NSC and therefore I would only be feeding too much if I saw problems. Also I'd read that racehorses were fed much higher amounts, and I knew Halla was being worked as hard as they were. 

In hindsight ten pounds was too much. How would a person know what a safe cutoff was? 
Is it fine for racehorses and other hardworking horses to eat them in large amounts because they need the energy and they're highly digestible or not? If people say "they are," then why do racehorses have such digestive issues and why do people balk at the idea of giving them 10 lbs or more?

I guess I haven't made clear that we were never able to get Halla to eat large amounts of hay at_ any_ point over the years, whether in rest, slow work, hard work, etc. It wasn't that she stopped eating hay at some point or went off her feed (except for one brief episode where she had ulcers caused by a move, not grain). It was also never an issue of her starting into harder and harder work and losing weight. She was always a 4-5 BCS, and it was always a matter of me trying a variety of things to try to keep weight on a horse that wasn't a motivated eater, while also bringing up her fitness level. Various people and vets always said she wasn't actually thin, just hard fit like a race horse.

She always seemed very energetic and healthy, definitely a hard keeper though, and I would never have suspected metabolic issues, and also had her tested for them with negative results. 

Most horse people I've ridden with think I am overly conservative about adding to workloads excessively slowly. I've not yet met another person who works horses up at the same rate, which is adding distance at the amounts I would feel comfortable running on foot myself when getting back into shape. I'm open to the idea that I've overworked a horse, but believe it is unlikely. I've had horses extremely fit, but they always got there at a snail's pace.



SueC said:


> So for me, and for my animals, I do what works, and gets us healthy, no matter what "experts" say on the matter.


That sounds great as a personal philosophy.

I guess I would just ask you, for new people coming into horses, would you recommend they feed oats to their horses? Why oats over other feeds? And would you tell them to be careful about it? If it's not just a treat but a safe feed, then you're implying large amounts can be given.

I'd say like some other feeds like rice bran, oats are a "caveat" feed, which means they can be fed but it should be understood that there are some caveats such as they can lead to nutritional imbalances or other issues. Like alfalfa which can cause intestinal stones if fed exclusively or gives some horses bad reactions. 

I wouldn't say oats are a "bad" feed, like corn/oats/barley mixes with molasses, (which I've also had people tell me they've fed to horses forever and had no problems with). I fed Amore COB for several years when I first bought her and saw no issues with hooves, etc. Yet I do believe the science that says those are difficult for horses to digest, and can lead to ulcers, or potentially laminitis, and I also believe there are some things that are difficult to dispute, such as the phosphorus levels in oats, and the fact that we understand how phosphorus and calcium work together in efficient ratios for horses. 

Definitely I'm not saying anyone needs to change what they are doing. But what would you tell other people to do?

The reason_ I'm_ not feeding my other horses oats is not because of what happened to Halla. I'm not feeding oats because Halla's issues led me to reading about all the problems oats could potentially cause, and they don't seem necessary to feed when there are so many feeds available that are simply safe to feed any horse in any amount. So why would I choose oats? I don't know of any reason to choose oats with a high NSC level and potential for hind gut issues over_ other_ feeds that have low NSC levels and no potential to cause those issues. What is there to make a person think they're missing out by saying to skip the oats due to the caveats?

To me, saying "Why would oats win out over another feed when they can cause issues?" Is different from saying "Oats are terrible and you should feel bad about feeding them to your horses."


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## Knave

I think that if I were going to tell anyone about feeding any grain, including oats, to a horse I would say you can’t just add a feed without building it up. That said, taking away is easier than starting and can be done much quicker.

Unless a horse is working heavy they are likely fine on a quality hay. A horse working heavy is still most reliant on quality hay or pasture (pasture isn’t really readily available where I am, so I am no good about that information). Oats are, in my opinion, a good way to get a larger amount of calories in a smaller mass. They are a cold calorie as far as my belief goes in comparison to many other grains. 

That said I don’t mean build a horse up to a large amount of oats. Top athletes working hard with educated handlers are different than standard. I myself feed a larger amount of oats to horses working hard, but that still only amounts to around 1 pound of oats in my case.


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## bsms

I can't even imagine living where "good quality hay" is available. Just fed the horses their lunch (hay pellets/complete feed). The stems - LOTS of stems - from last night's meal are now pounded into the mud (it rained 1.5 inches last night). The hay we are getting now is largely hay the horses refuse to eat! The farrier was here Tuesday and said he's hearing the same all over. Some hay here is Arizona grown and a lot comes from California. It usually is decent over the summer. By winter, the hay here usually sucks. To the point where I put it in their bowls; they sniff it; then they look at me as if to say, "_What is this dog poop you're feeding us?!_"

I guess it is just as we well cut way back on riding during the winter months. Folks think this time is our main riding time...and by this time of year, we normally are starting to ramp up again. Thankfully, Thursday is supposed to start a week of nice weather. And the new hay ought to start coming in a few weeks from now, too.


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## gottatrot

My horses hanging out today:









It was very chill walking around. Hero spooked several times but there was a notable lack of hopping, rearing, biting, etc. After the horses were in the outdoor arena for awhile, and after I'd walked them around for another fifteen minutes or so, all of a sudden I felt Hero's posture change. I looked at him, and he was staring at me kind of wide-eyed. I wasn't sure why, so I kept the horses walking and watched him. 

After a moment he turned toward me and lifted his front end about two inches off the ground. My first inclination was to ignore it, falling back into my habit from the past. Then I saw he was still staring at me, and then hopped up a little higher. I swear he was trying to see if I was going to do anything about it. So I gave him a bit of harsh voice and stepped hard toward him, and then he put these wide eyes on me and backed up, and he went quickly back to the calm state he'd been in before. 

It really makes me wonder if he feels better when he believes I am going to set some boundaries and then he knows where his place is within them. Could it be that makes him less stressed and more secure?

I hope no one knows this song because it might be ruined for you after this - "Ready to Let Goat" I mean, "Go." By Cage The Elephant. 
Just some horses grazing and goats. I am so pleased with how good Amore looks at 28, and how spryly she still moves.
Hero is also the most talented horse I've had for maneuvering around a lead rope on the ground. Amore still can't handle it and traps her own head by stepping on it.




The poor goats were so jealous about the grass the horses were eating. I had to keep giving them some over the fence. Try not to notice how badly my halters are adjusted.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> How would a person know what a safe cutoff was?
> Is it fine for racehorses and other hardworking horses to eat them in large amounts because they need the energy and they're highly digestible or not? If people say "they are," then why do racehorses have such digestive issues and why do people balk at the idea of giving them 10 lbs or more?


I can only talk about the racehorses we had, and that I saw other people have - and ours didn't have digestive issues, tender feet, metabolic issues, etc related to that feed. My parents' retired horses had frequent sand colics from sand accumulation and inactivity - that's what happens when horses stand in sand doing nothing all day, and sift through the sand for bits of leftover hay. Their worked horses did not - being neither hungry nor bored, and of course, exercise is so essential for gut health.

Of course people baulk at the idea of overfeeding oats. They should also baulk at overfeeding any other type of concentrate. Or, at overfeeding good quality hay if their horses are getting fat - maybe offer some straw for additional roughage then, or something less "yummy" - since a lot of the hay grown these days is actually finer stuff than the rougher forage wild horses eat on rangelands and natural grasslands (which are so different to improved pasture).




> I guess I would just ask you, for new people coming into horses, would you recommend they feed oats to their horses? Why oats over other feeds? And would you tell them to be careful about it? If it's not just a treat but a safe feed, then you're implying large amounts can be given.


Well, actually, that depends what you mean by large amounts. I consider organically grown red meat a safe human food, but that doesn't mean it's healthy to eat it in large amounts, or necessary to do so either. But I wouldn't call meat a "treat" either. Or walnuts, for example, in the human diet. A great food in the right amounts, very beneficial - but like many things, it can be overdone.

For new people coming into horses, I'd say what I always say: Forage and/or hay are your starting point. You have to educate yourself and be selective, because horses can get very ill on the wrong kinds and amounts of forage (such as improved pasture in spring) and even the wrong kinds and amounts of hay. Keep in mind the differences between a hothoused agricultural environment, and a horse's natural environment, ancestrally. Try to close that gap.

People new to horses are hardly going to be working them hard and/or competitively for a while. Most people riding horses for leisure seem to do it at such light to moderate workloads that only a ration balancer of some description is needed in case there are shortfalls in the forage / hay.

I would say that if you're going to start feeding for extra energy when getting into either prolonged slower rides or hard work, and you're competent at researching and weighing up nutrition, avoid commercial pellets and mix your own supplementary rations from things like oats, canola meal, copra, powdered limestone, dolomite, table salt, potassium chloride, and vitamin/mineral mix. Never feed concentrates to replace the baseline roughage. If you're not confident to make your own mixes based on traditional feeding, then buy something pre-made; I just always found traditional mixes (pre pelletised feed era) better performance-wise, and more economical too, and I come from a long line of traditional horse feeding that grew out of how agricultural and working horses were fed by Europeans in the region where I was born, when people grew their own feed on their own farms. Growing up there in the 70s and early 80s I saw both traditional and pellet supplementation feeding in various venues, and saw that horses with the traditional feeding had less troubles with their gut and general health than horses on the industrially produced feeds.

The only cases I personally ever knew, or subsequently heard of, of horses foundering on the traditional diet back in Germany was if a horse got loose and found a grain bin and ate and ate and ate. This needs to be avoided. Likewise, ruminants can be killed if they get into citrus fruits, because it disrupts the rumen pH. The traditional diet doesn't involve excessive grain. Excess is determined by workload (and obviously general health - the manure must be healthy, the horse not stressed out etc etc). I did see some other horses foundering (at our riding school, particularly one private horse there), on non-traditional diets, and again because concentrates were fed in excess (a problem on pellets or oats), and horses weren't active enough to be eating them, and/or because the activity was too intermittent (which can also lead to azoturia).

All concentrates must be built up gradually yadda yadda yadda, as others have already pointed out.

What's too much? Baseline oat feeding in traditionally feeding establishments in Europe were giving an average of 2L (about 2 pounds) morning and night to riding horses in work, and unless the horses were competing or used very heavily, that stayed about the same. European horses tend to be larger than Australian or American horses. I don't personally think it is necessary to feed oats, or other concentrates including pelleted substitutes, in these amounts for those purposes, and I don't. Their baseline ration would be my competition ration for endurance, and only if my horse wasn't off its roughage, and wasn't getting silly on that amount. But while I don't think it's necessary to feed what they fed, I also didn't think those amounts were harmful to those horses - again, no metabolic or digestive problems or tender feet etc. Also, my parents were feeding this baseline ration to their retirees for many years, and while that was completely unnecessary, it also didn't harm their horses - no metabolic issues, no foot issues resulted. Again, it's important to understand that there is a context, and if you change the context, this may not be safe - for example, if horses are stood in stalls all day without exercise - but that to me is also an animal abuse issue.

The oats we feed are a traditional feed oat, not a hothoused oat, and it's important to understand that different varieties of oats have different qualities; modern varieties can be far less slow-release than traditional varieties. This, by the way, is also true for supermarket variety fruit and vegetables versus heirloom varieties - the heirlooms tend to be far lower in sugar, higher in protein, antioxidants, vitamins and minerals, etc. We grow and eat Painted Mountain Corn, an ancient heirloom corn which is extraordinarily satisfying compared to ordinary hybrid sweetcorn - that's soft, mushy lollies in vegetable form, and we can't face stuff like that anymore after trying the heirloom varieties. One cob of Painted Mountain fills us up like a big handful of peanuts! In human nutrition, not only has sugar been added to nearly all processed foods, it's also been bred into many fruit and vegetables, compared to ancestral varieties, to the point that many of them are no longer healthy - too high in sugar, too low in actual useful nutrients.

In biological terms, carbohydrate is cheap for plants to make - the cheapest and easiest of them all, and in modern agriculture, produce is getting more and more stuffed with it as people aim for higher and higher yields. What you get is an evolution towards higher free sugars and carbohydrates, and a proportional reduction in micronutrients, protein, etc. The quality of the produce is dropping, carbohydrate levels are getting dangerous, and it's becoming inappropriate for both human and domestic animal nutrition. That's why we grow our own food now in an organic growing system, and what we can't grow, we try obtain from places that follow similar philosophies and use heirloom varieties. It's not always possible to do it, but it's worth it to try. By the way, you don't need a farm to grow heirloom F&V, many people in Australia are now doing that in their own backyards again, and that's one of the things my Grass Roots community in Australia supports each other in.

Racehorse feeding is another chapter - which I could get into another time. Basically, again, concentrates are increased in line with requirements for training. If you feed too much, healthy racehorses get silly with excess energy, way before they have other issues - and way before their manure starts to look and smell unhealthy, which is another thing that tells you you're not feeding right. If you feed the right amount, the horses complete their sprint training with ease and walk away with a bounce in their steps and a gleam in their eyes, instead of being exhausted. They volunteer their sprints and don't have to be pushed in training, and they recover well. They stand up to more work than horses on lower amounts of concentrates. We actually tried, over 35 years, all sorts of concentrates with our racehorses, including Coprice, a rice-based pellet, and a lot of different commercial mixes, pelletised or otherwise. We always came back to our own mix, because our horses did better on it and were healthier on it than on the commercial feeds.

We never had horses get tender feet or metabolic issues on the commercial feeds either, but also weren't feeding them for long periods as we found them inferior. Horses can get laminitis and metabolic issues on all sorts of feeds (and until the agricultural issues get sorted, this will continue), and feeding isn't the only issue behind either of those conditions. It's really important to prevent stress in horses, and boredom too, and for them to have lots of incidental exercise as well as the training we do with them, for example.

Like I said, the oats have never actually caused our horses problems - now 38 years and counting, and four generations of horses, and ditto other people we know who feed oats, which is many people back in Europe - but they have to be fed correctly. Two penpals I have from Sweden who are heavily involved in horses - one a lady in her 70s who's been showjumping all her life and who writes about horses in the Swedish press as a side thing - guess what they're feeding? Hay and supplementary oats. Not every tradition is worth holding onto, but some actually had very good reasons for lasting.

I'll try to get back to the topic again sometime, but it takes hours... and only if you really want to hear what I've got to say, because it's your journal, and I don't want to create awkward situations. I also don't want to feel like I'm an omnivore talking to a vegan! ;-) Because that's so unproductive for both sides... and I've always enjoyed the discussion and camaraderie at your house, @gottatrot.

Best wishes to everyone here!


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Of course people baulk at the idea of overfeeding oats. They should also baulk at overfeeding any other type of concentrate. Or, at overfeeding good quality hay if their horses are getting fat - maybe offer some straw for additional roughage then, or something less "yummy" - since a lot of the hay grown these days is actually finer stuff than the rougher forage wild horses eat on rangelands and natural grasslands (which are so different to improved pasture).


Yes, definitely. And this is what I think I should make clear. I often speak up about oats, other grains, and overfeeding in general, for people who may not understand that oats are still a high NSC concentrate even if they are digested more easily than corn or barley. Many people who are feeding oats do not have athletes. 

While I do believe that we should see what has worked in the past, and also believe in natural, in my own barn there are people feeding oats to non-athletic, overweight horses based on one of two things: the cowboy guy feeds his non-working horses oats because of tradition, and the granola lady feeds her non-working horses oats because they are natural. None of the horses need concentrates whatsoever.

There is a culture around here that can cause some issues for animals because there is a pervasive hippie/granola culture that has a rather extreme view that nothing natural can have negative consequences, and everything unnatural should be avoided. That's not what I read in your posts, by the way, and you seem to have a good balance. 

I also believe that unprocessed foods are better, and if you can mix your own concentrates that would be ideal. I personally don't have a way to feed my powdered vitamins to the horses, so I buy a locally made pellet that is alfalfa and timothy hay mixed with flax and rice bran. They use steam to create this into a pellet, so it is very crumbly but a small amount mixes well with vitamins. It is not a grain, but just hay plus fats.

My dog and cats also eat human grade pet food rather than kibble, because I've seen how much healthier they are on it. A lot of people around here feed raw diets also. 

I think you have good safeguards to recommend for feeding oats, rather than saying "because they're a good feed, everyone should feed them." I speak up because many people around here think since whole oats are natural, they can be fed freely. For example, at my barn we also used to have two very obese mustangs that were being fed oats in the amounts you describe as being used for traditional working horses in Europe. Those horses also never had their hay amounts managed, and one foundered. 

People here think the same about marijuana (since it's natural it can't hurt anyone, so those who react badly to it must have some other problem), and we've seen those who overdose on carrots and play dangerously with ingesting colloidal silver or other natural antibiotics. I believe in natural, whole foods and such but like you, I believe anything can be overdone or used improperly. My dad had surgery for kidney stones because he went overboard on eating spinach he grew in his garden. 

A problem I think U.S. racehorses have that you did not have, is that they believe horses in work need a certain amount of the diet to come from concentrates (50%). So they actually do decrease roughage in order to provide more concentrate. The horses here do not have good hooves and ulcers are rampant. Stable vices are common and the energy is unmanageable. The natural digestion is disrupted, the horse become more stressed and bored and it's a big problem.

A big issue with commercial feeds as you describe is that even if the contents are good, there can be contamination at the factory or issues with quality control. Recently I got some beet pulp and the bag was full of powder and pieces of corn. Many horses around here are fed beet pulp because they have issues with laminitis, and the owners want a low NSC feed. And the bags are being contaminated with corn? Ridiculous.

One point you make I think could be clarified. You said excess grain would be determined by workload (and general health of the horse). Yes. Also, just like us, there is a point where you can't use excess because it's just too much for the body to process. So for example, a human can only synthesize so much protein at a time, and only load so many carbs into the muscles. So while athletes need more protein and carbs than others, if you take in 30 grams of protein and enough carbs for your weight, it's only going to stress your body to take in 70 grams of protein, etc.

And of course we have IR horses which are similar to human diabetics. A diabetic could never eat my diet, because I'm an athlete often needing 250 or more grams of carbs daily and that would cause them serious health problems. I've experimented and found my performance is much better when getting adequate carbs. That doesn't mean I recommend that a diabetic should eat loads of potatoes, rice and oatmeal.

I think people often take the "more is better" approach with horses to their detriment. If a horse has loaded up their muscles with glycogen by eating lots of hay or grass, they don't need ten pounds of grain for the quick energy required to do a short burst of intense exercise. They'll only be able to use a small amount of the quick energy, and hay can be used just as well by the horse to load their glycogen stores. After all, the horse's diet is primarily carbohydrate. If the horse is being fed a very low protein hay, however, they might need the oats for the protein content (17%), or they may not have enough to rebuild muscles. 

Perhaps one thing that is not taken into consideration with racehorses is that horses can take 72 hours to replace glycogen in the muscles. If those stores are being used up by workouts before a race, the horse will _need_ some type of quick energy feed before the race or he will not have energy to perform.
With our horses, several days off between a hard workout is the norm. Perhaps that is why we see they are able to work very hard despite not being fed grain. A hay or grass meal before exercise helps increase the glucose levels in the blood also so the horse doesn't have to go right to the muscle stores.

I always remember that "fat is burned in the flame of carbohydrate," so even if it is endurance/aerobic exercise we are doing, the horse can't access the fat for fuel without glucose or glycogen stores being available. 

I really like how you point out that horse feeding and management is complex and multifactorial. People tend to oversimplify things by into categories or practices when each horse is an individual and needs to be managed that way depending on many factors.


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## gottatrot

Deepest apologies to those who find nutrition boring and have been subjected to long discussions. 

Yesterday we took Hero and Nala out for a ride. 
We went about 4 miles. I'd gone for a 2 mile run earlier, which is still about all my knee can take. So I wasn't sure if that would affect my knee for riding. I put my stirrups down a hole to help, and for the first time it was actually fine to ride with them longer. I've tried it several times before but had to go up again. I've been riding a hole shorter than my ideal, because of the bucking and hopping. Nala's rider said maybe someday we will have a little button we can push that will make the stirrups go up or down a hole as we ride.

With longer stirrups, my knees are less strained and I have a better seat down on the horse. It's more secure for spooking since I'm lower. However, for bucking and hopping where the back comes up, the shorter stirrup is more secure, so I have been riding that way for awhile, prioritizing not being chucked off the top or straining my back.

All those days I spent getting Hero out for exercise in the winter weather and darkness have paid off. There is a big difference in the horse I have now. He walks out without stalling, and I don't have to push him or start him up again on the way down the beach. I can feel his energy is there. On the way home he doesn't get discouraged or drag his hind hooves. He's still getting the Equioxx, but I'm hopeful that after some more time doing real conditioning work, which he is now able to do, I can wean him off it.

Down the steep dune there was the residual anxiety at the top where Hero wondered if he could go down, but then he walked down with no bucking. On the beach there were a lot of cars (we're thinking of moving - it's getting ridiculous to have to work around fairly constant cars driving up and down the beach in March. It always used to be deserted this time of year here). 

We started on the hard sand, but Nala's rider soon took her into the deep sand to avoid some traffic. Hero followed, and was able to pick up a rolling canter and keep on going through the deep sand without bucking or having his stifles catch. All told I think he cantered about a half mile this ride. 

Something else we did that was challenging was after a couple miles, I asked Hero to take a rest while Nala's rider took her for a gallop up and down the beach. He didn't seem tired, but was a little sweaty after cantering through the deep sand and I tend to be overly cautious about conditioning. 

When Nala took off toward home, Hero got a little upset, but I was able to easily make him hear me and he got one little swat when he started to rear, but it seems like I'm getting a good feel for his energy and the timing needed to say "Hey!" and get him to listen and calm down. It was easy to see that he really did not want to gallop with her, but was concerned about being left. We just can't keep up with her, so this was good practice for him. 

I often say that it takes a year of riding a horse to really get to know their reactions and such, and be comfortable in all situations. On this ride I noticed that I was really feeling "at home" on Hero, and it felt like I was managing a tricky horse rather than a risky one. Meaning, there's this feeling I have on green and untrained hot horses, which is that there's a good possibility we'll run into trouble or I'll come off. After awhile, when I know the horse, it feels like running into something we can't handle would be rare or unusual. It's nice to pass into that phase, and is the start of working on more intuitive teamwork.

Hero was kindly telegraphing to me when he thought he might buck, and on the several occasions where I said "no," but he still kicked out, darted forward or hopped, I just gave him one light tap with my short "smacker" crop on the hip, and then he moved out without the drama. That to me was some good success.

I wasn't sure if he'd have the energy/muscle strength to canter on the way home, but he did and even in the deeper sand. He also stayed calm the rest of the way home, except for one little goofy spot where he started into it almost to check on my reaction, and I got him out of it right away. I'm not sure if he'll always have to do those "checks," but possibly he'll eventually not need to. 
I didn't feel any pain in my knee for the entire ride, and it felt good afterward too.


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## gottatrot

Nala and Hero were getting their rest today when I went to the barn.































You can't interrupt a horse nap, so I sat down and made a video of Hero being sleepy and waking up. 





After napping, I tried to take Hero out for a short, easy bareback ride and pony Amore. Hero said he doesn't do that. He doesn't want to lead another horse, it's not what he does. After trying to get him to agree in a variety of ways, I finally gave up and took the horses for a walk. Oh well, I can walk on my own two feet.


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## SueC

Isn't it nice that when we sit down and nut it out, we can >80% agree on nutrition? I think one of the problems with the start of this whole discussion was that one basically needs to write a book type post - one just can't do it in a short post. I think also that many things that are completely obvious to me, such as don't generally feed concentrates to fat horses or horses where the work doesn't warrant it, and never use concentrate as a substitute for the roughage ration - for some reason aren't completely obvious to everyone, although those are considered feeding basics, in pretty much any book or tradition about horse nutrition. So I tend not to state them, and since there are novice people around, perhaps I should actually always state the bleeding obvious as well.

Also, I've been wearied by fruitless discussions with militant vegans. "But you could do without any meat. But look at these hundred studies that say meat is bad for you." It's wearying because I'm not trying to get vegans to stop being vegans - as long as they supplement with B12 and balance their amino acids from plant foods correctly, they can do well, and much better than on mainstream diets. But, there's more than one way to do healthy nutrition, and there's also nothing deleterious about being an omnivore if you eat the right things - after all, humans are evolutionarily and anatomically omnivores, no matter what some militant vegans like to suggest. The very reason we are mostly naked is that this was an advantageous adaptation for hunting down prey in a kind of endurance event, back in the African savannah. It kept us cool and allowed us an edge. And as for the meat studies - you can find a range of conclusions, and also, the usual problems with any scientific studies: Correlation does not imply causation, so don't leap to conclusions - look at alternative hypotheses. Realise that adequate control of variables is extremely difficult in studies about nutrition. And there's so many things that never got taken into consideration: Saturated fat versus bioaccumulation of industrial chemicals, feedlot versus pasture-finished (very different fatty acid profiles etc), exercised versus sedentary animals, heritage versus hothoused breeds, etc etc etc. 

The holes in many nutritional studies are so huge you could drive a truck through them... which is also why "expert opinions" in human nutrition about-turn so frequently, and why such a variety of views exist that you could often take your pick of studies to justify your own preferred position... So yeah, what I've observed in the real world does mean a lot more to me than any academic paper, whether with horses or humans. I do like reading papers and they do give food for thought, but I don't think papers are as authoritative as some people (not suggesting you at all here, but I've seen people be so deferential) like to think they are. I trained in and conducted scientific research myself, and taught about scientific method and science philosophy for many years as part of my professional work, therefore have far less deference to scientific "authority" than most people who haven't qualified in the sciences. I understand the limitations, and the process of science. And I also value and respect science, as our best intellectual system for understanding the natural world better.


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## bsms

I'm fond of science too, but I get nutritional whiplash bouncing back and forth between: Coffee - good or bad? Eggs - healthy or a death trap? Whole milk - sound nutrition or an evil plot by wealthy dairy farmers, not to mention a "tool for white dominance and superiority"?

I would take it all with a grain of salt, but the scientists can't tell me if THAT is good or bad, either! :cheers: And along those lines...what about beer...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Isn't it nice that when we sit down and nut it out, we can >80% agree on nutrition? I think one of the problems with the start of this whole discussion was that one basically needs to write a book type post - one just can't do it in a short post. I think also that many things that are completely obvious to me, such as don't generally feed concentrates to fat horses or horses where the work doesn't warrant it, and never use concentrate as a substitute for the roughage ration - for some reason aren't completely obvious to everyone, although those are considered feeding basics, in pretty much any book or tradition about horse nutrition. So I tend not to state them, and since there are novice people around, perhaps I should actually always state the bleeding obvious as well....
> 
> ...Also, I've been wearied by fruitless discussions with militant vegans....
> 
> ...The holes in many nutritional studies are so huge you could drive a truck through them... which is also why "expert opinions" in human nutrition about-turn so frequently, and why such a variety of views exist that you could often take your pick of studies to justify your own preferred position... So yeah, what I've observed in the real world does mean a lot more to me than any academic paper, whether with horses or humans...


Agree, agree, agree. And the whole back and forth thing like @bsms describes. Which people take to extremes. Like when a study says dark chocolate has anti-oxidants, and suddenly you have people saying, "Oh man, I need to get my dose of dark chocolate today," like it's medicine or something.

Probably we agree even more than 80%, if we really discussed things. But like you, not trying to "convert" vegans or anyone on their fad diets, or convince racetrack trainers that perhaps more hay and less oats would be healthier. 

It does slightly annoy me at times when people act like I have some special super power because I maintain a healthy weight. "I wish I could eat that," and all. Except I'm eating one brownie along with a lot of what I call regular food, which is basically what my mom fed us growing up (except she actually ground the grain to make homemade bread all the time, which if I did that we'd have no teeth left due to the rock-hard consistency of the "bread"). Basically some type of meal such as tacos or spaghetti, or chicken and rice, something with some fruit, vegetable, grain and meat. They're eating some type of protein bar or shake (although not working out) to suppress their appetite, or trying to eat extra fat by putting lard on their food to get into ketosis, weird stuff. Then avoiding fruit because it's "unhealthy." No one is ever going to convince me that fruit or vegetables are unhealthy. Including potatoes. 

My sister and I joke that what people count for exercise we consider life. Taking the dog for a walk, going up and down the nursing unit, walking around the grocery store, those are all "non" exercise things in our book. We count exercise as the 5 mile run we did after all that. 

I believe some studies about nutrition, but they need to have a lot more behind them than simply coffee might be healthy or not. In my mind, a study is good if it supports or explains things that we have understood as science-based for awhile, based on lots of real world application. Such as in many ways through many studies we've discovered how the muscles in various animals turn carbohydrates into glycogen stores, which are then turned back into glucose for quick fuel during exercise. People such as ultramarathoners have experimented with high fat/low carb diets for fueling extreme exercise, and it can work. However, this is not the easiest or most natural way for our bodies to do things, and requires close attention to detail. I also think the low fat thing was off track, but now there is a swing the other way where people are trying to eat high amounts of fat. That doesn't seem right to me. The body is capable of letting us know when things are stressful to it. If we overeat, it doesn't feel good. If we eat too much sugar or fat, or not enough fiber (or too much suddenly), we can feel that things are not right.

I guess a lot of people consider dairy to be unhealthy. When I lived in dairy country, I took care of the oldest patients I've ever had. If dairy is unhealthy, it apparently can be overcome by hard work on the farm, because it was quite normal to have old dairy farmers that were over 100 years old. I asked one woman who was 100 what her secret was, and she said she ate ice cream every day, for the calcium. She also still swam at the YMCA every day. One woman was talking about things she did when she was young, and her daughter told me, "You have to realize when she says that she means when she was in her 70s. She considers she was very young back then."

I'm not against everything that is processed or unnatural. The way our world is now, it can be difficult to avoid it. For years I thought it was just standard to have a bit of a crash after a hard workout where I didn't feel very good. My DH was big on eating within a certain time before a workout, and also right after. I'd never have an appetite so wouldn't. Finally I tried taking some of his protein drink after a workout one day, and learned that you can actually feel good in the two hours post workout if you give your body back the electrolytes, protein and carbs it needs. That mix of everything in a powder is difficult to replicate (I've tried), so I find the powders you can buy pretty useful.


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## bsms

The original McDonald's hamburger was 1/10th of a pound - a 1.6 oz patty. I just looked it up...the "Quarter Pounder" was introduced nationally in 1973. Here was their menu in 1973 (when I turned 15):










https://www.rd.com/food/fun/mcdonalds-menu-year-born/​
It is hard to imagine a modern American teen riding their bicycle to McDonald's, having a cheeseburger and coffee for 50 cents, then pedaling home. Even I hadn't remembered that when I entered my teens, McDonald's didn't HAVE a Quarter-Pounder! Although they did start selling a "Big Mac" nationally in 1968. The two patties were a total of 3.2 oz, before cooking...and from 1984, 5 years after I got my BS in Biology:





The following year, Burger King increased the size of "The Whopper" to 4.2 oz, and the size wars were on!


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## gottatrot

We never wanted to eat at McD's in Japan, but we've been over there traveling for over 6 weeks total and in a variety of areas, so it was inevitable that sometimes we just needed something hot to eat. We noticed the portions were much smaller, with what we would normally consider the small size being standard for fries, drinks, etc. Also, being Japan, even your cheeseburger was a work of art; the cheese placed with the corners sticking out with mathematical precision, the ketchup and pickles centered perfectly inside. Your fries stick up out of the top of the container rather than sitting in there sideways or cattywampus. 
If only it weren't nearly impossible to move to Japan - I so appreciate the way they make everyday life more beautiful in a thousand different ways. 








DH thinks that part of this is because they value work, and everyone must be productive. So everyone goes to work, and where we might need ten construction workers here, but only have eight and some are still standing around, over there they might need ten construction workers and have fifteen on the site. But those who are not on the project itself seem to be finding ways to make the work either more aesthetic or more streamlined. Every day there are new surprises, because of a detail someone thought of. Such as your toothpick has a mint tip or the end is carved. Or the manhole covers have art on them, or a doorway puts a mist of cool spray on you when you come through it from outside on a hot day. 
I mean, why shouldn't construction barriers have cute animals on them so you can smile as you wait in traffic?
















Why wouldn't every traffic flagger invent his own pattern of waving with a personal flair?








Why wouldn't you come around a corner and see a dragon instead of a bland concrete wall?








Why wouldn't the stairs play a song and light up when you walk down them?


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## bsms

I tend to agree with a low-carb approach, but I also then assume veggies have no carbs. None that I worry about. I suspect the weight problem in America is driven more by food choice (I dislike most veggies) and our proportions...well, it is like living in southern Arizona. When you are used to 100 degree heat, 70 degrees feels cold. As for Japan:

One of the best pieces of advice I got was on a ranch years ago. "_If you don't have something to do, find something that will help in some way._" Finding small things, constantly tweaking things...it is how I approach riding, too. I may look like a slob rider. I'll NEVER be a graceful rider. But the details of how one mounts, for example, can make a big difference to the horse's comfort and the rider's safety. An inch of difference in stirrup length can make a real difference in riding. One can obviously succeed using a wide range of stirrup lengths, but I'll probably go with the "Poppa Bear" setting if I ride today because Bandit has been cooped up and is likely to be a bit opinionated.

I sang in a quartet in church yesterday. I'm not a good singer, but it is a small church and I'm the only tenor. The lady playing the piano and also directing us was emphasizing "consonants" as we practiced. I'm tend to be happy (very happy) if I just hit the right note, and she wanted...consonants?! But her point was correct. If the words are slurred, what is the point of singing a song in church?

A saying I hate: "_If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum._" Too many live their lives that way. It is a very un-Japanese saying.


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## SueC

Just  that aspect of Japanese culture - thanks for the photos!  Also many other aspects. Sometimes I catch the Japanese news on SBS, and the presenters are always so polite and nice with each other. Little bows, eye contact, smiles. The idea that other people deserve consideration and that being respectful is important. The complete opposite of Australian "she'll-be-right"ness... I suppose with a start in Germany, where you also take off your street shoes before entering someone else's home, out of actual consideration for people having to clean up after you if you don't, that affinity with Japanese culture is inevitable for me. Trying to do your best, little things count, be a little quirky etc.

Here in Australia, I've had people actually offended if I asked them to take off their muddy shoes before coming into the house. Or if I said, "No!" when their children asked to go through my personal stuff in my drawers, or if I objected to children running willy-nilly through our house checking out all the rooms and helping themselves to stuff and kicking at the walls for fun, or streaking their hands down our window glass, while their parents sat unperturbed and doing nothing to stop it. Unbelievable to me that a culture would find such things acceptable. Guess who doesn't get invited back!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> "Oh man, I need to get my dose of dark chocolate today," like it's medicine or something.
> My sister and I joke that what people count for exercise we consider life.


I think dark chocolate is medicinal for me.. but more of a mental health drug than anything to do with anti-oxidants. :Angel:


A sad state when any sort of movement is exclaimed over as something different and exciting. But I guess what does one expect from a society where there is no more going outside to play, replaced instead by wiggling of fingers while staring at screens.. I have had people make similar comments to me - "you take the dog for a _mile_ walk twice a day?" Umm, that is the minimum I walk the dog as I knowingly got a breed that needs a lot of exercise!




bsms said:


> The following year, Burger King increased the size of "The Whopper" to 4.2 oz, and the size wars were on!


Amazing how something seemingly minor would cause such a cascade.. My great aunt used to mutter about getting a week's worth of food when we took her out to dinner. I remember reading an article about plate size and how it relates to feeling full and have eaten on "small" plates ever since.




SueC said:


> I've had people actually offended if I asked them to take off their muddy shoes before coming into the house. Or if I said, "No!" when their children asked to go through my personal stuff in my drawers, or if I objected to children running willy-nilly through our house


Well that is one easy way to weed out people who don't need to be in your house anyway! Same goes for people who comment on the animals being "allowed" on the furniture..


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## gottatrot

Haven't had much time to ride this week. 

We borrowed a motorcycle in an attempt to get some practice, hoping to go take the 2 day class/test to get licenses next weekend. Unfortunately, the bike has been difficult to get or keep running. Part of the deal was we got a new battery, which we ended up trying a couple, one of which was DOA and needed charging, except then something else like a fuel line clogged up and we haven't been able to do much with it. What can you do...we were super lucky to find someone to loan us any kind of motorcycle in this era of lawsuits. 

We did get in about 4 hours of practice, 2 of which involved many running jump starts, which is perhaps a good skill to have and I believe I can coordinate that quite well now. Not helpful for the license testing, however. The motorcycle was a modified 180cc that was made half dirt bike, half street bike. We brought it to a large parking lot where we were able to get up to 25 mph or so, and work on some cone weaves, turning, etc. I only made one mistake which was to think I could turn in time but instead edged the tire on a curb and tipped into the grass. No big deal. DH did not make errors but struggled with the cones so hopefully he will do better on the test. 

The bike had a tricky clutch with a super tiny area of "grab" and the gears did not click so involved a lot of guess work, DH said it was like learning to drive in an old junker car. Which both of us did, in our teens with stick shifts. It was my first time driving my own bike, and I thought it was fun and it felt like I could learn it. Hopefully things will be easier on the testing bikes, if they function more normally. I expect to have to learn a lot to do the test, and then I'll have to basically start again if I get my own, heavier cruiser (I want a Honda Rebel 500). 

**************************************
Enough about all of that. Today I had the best ride on Hero ever. Went out with Nala, it's the first weekend of spring break here, and we went without jackets - it was over 60F on the beach. The sand was hard and the beach was wide. There were lots of people, dogs and cars, but there was enough room for everyone. 

Hero was reluctant about going down the dune at our usual place. He wanted to veer to the right to a different access trail, so I let him. Nala went down at the usual place and disappeared. Then Hero changed his mind and decided it was better where Nala went down, so we headed back over there and he went down with no problem. 

We walked, then cantered about a half mile with a strong, smooth canter. That was nice to ride, he kept his head up, and pushed well off the hind. After even a mile, we could tell the horses were feeling warm. Their breathing was super easy, but we were feeling hot in the saddle so figured they were too. We took them trotting through the ocean, so the water could splash up and cool them off. I had some good, springy long trotting from Hero and he was keeping up with Nala very well. We did more cantering, and ended up going the four miles or so to the estuary.

Hero spooked a couple times, and I'm sure he'll always be tricky sometimes, but I'm getting the feel of him very well. Nala jumps behind us, or someone yells at a dog, and he does this thing where it feels like he's going to bolt out from under you. The hind legs gallop, and then he jumps up in the front and goes hop hop. But I'm learning that if I catch him right there and give him one token swat with the crop, he immediately settles and we go on like nothing happened. 
He is not requiring harshness from me currently. He's learned what my cues are, and what the crop means, and understands I will escalate if necessary. So we're not having to go beyond normal voice cueing and the crop as a simple cue used sparingly.

One the way home when Hero was more tired, he felt like he wouldn't be able to canter, so when Nala picked up speed he worried a bit and thought he should buck. Each time I caught the buck, brought his head up and told him he could canter, that he should try. Three times I was able to ride straight through the buck into it, and once I just stopped the buck and immediately had him try again, and then he leaped into it and got it. This all used to be impossible for him after already going four miles, and he did a lot more trotting that was actually springy and comfortable too. 

Nala's rider says she sees a huge difference in how his hind legs spring forward now, and he does very little toe dragging. All the way home I felt physical and mental energy, and a perky attitude. It felt like we had a good work, and the final walk to the barn was the calm of a tired horse. I was mentioning how different it was to have a horse that was having soreness and the resulting mental frustration, versus a horse that was just physically tired from a good work.

I wasn't sure if Hero would be able to gain as much physical aptitude as he currently has, so am very pleased with how he is going. We can actually ride out well with Nala, and she can move along without being frustrated.


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## Knave

That’s great! I’m happy for you. I can only imagine how broke your horses get about people and things on the beach.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Sorry cant add a whole lot but wanted to say the food and nutrition discussion was really interesting to me. 

I tried a "vegan" diet for 2 weeks just to try it when I was super fit (gym and cross fit 6 days a week, sometimes 2hrs a day and running about 25-30miles a week). I worked to get the right proteins and it was way too hard on my body. I felt sick, weak, lethargic. It was honestly a toxic feeling. I call BS whenever someone tries to tell me living vegan is healthy. I dont know the science behind it because health and nutrition has not been a priority for me. I'm also in Denmark and I am sheltered from the radical vegans and crazies. That BS isnt tolerated here :lol: if someone is vegan, it is fine but to be radical and press ideas on others is not. I dont understand the health "Trends" sometimes I feel the science is trying to satisfy people's egos and opinions takes priority over objective science. I find it hard to find credible scientific journals on nutrition, most seem to have a bias or trying to sell something. So finding "truth" seems a challenge. 

I also think every person has a diet that suits them better than others and each person needs to adjust accordingly. For example I know I do better on a high protein, moderate fat, low carb diet. But that isnt necessarily best for everyone.


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## SueC

Dear @gottatrot, this is a nice song for Romeo, and I thought you might like it for Valhalla too. :hug:

The clip is lovely as well.





 
_I remember a meadow one morning in May
With a sky full of dreams that sailed in that day
I was dancing through green waves of grass like the sea
For a moment in time I could feel I was free

There are waves of forgiveness and waves of regret
And the first waves of true love I'll never forget
In the meadow that morning as I wandered alone
There were green waves of yearning for life
Still unknown

Take me home to the meadow that cradles my heart
Where the waves reach as far as you can see
Take me home to the meadow we've been too long apart
I can still hear you calling for me

Take me home to the meadow that cradles my heart
Where the waves reach as far as you can see
Take me home to the meadow we've been too long apart
I can still hear you calling for me

What I'd give to remember that heavenly state
Just a moment in time all mine to create
As I'm taking my last breath, I know what I'll see
There'll be green waves forever out there waiting for me

Take me home to the meadow that cradles my heart
Where the waves reach as far as you can see
Take me home to the meadow we've been too long apart
I can still hear you calling for me_


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## gottatrot

The horses are shedding like crazy! Even Amore, which is great.

Not much time with the horses this weekend. We went down the coast for three days, looking more into moving down there. We also had signed up for a two day course to get our motorcycle endorsements. In Oregon this is a complicated and expensive process. 

We visited two possible boarding stables. It's very tricky, since there are few possibilities and all have some serious drawbacks. DH says if we can't find the right horse situation, we just won't move to that area.

The first place had a very old barn, and stalls with uneven floors. The horses come in each night and are out in a herd of a dozen or so on 150 acres. Negatives were that it is 45 miles from the town where we want to live, there isn't separate turnout that is large if the horses don't get along, the hay was really poor quality, and if you don't ask for your horse to be left in a stall because you plan to ride, you will be hiking miles all over the mountain looking for the herd to catch your horse. Positives are that the horses are left out 24/7 when the weather gets nice, there is a large covered arena, and endless hilly land to roam over which would be good for both Hero's stifles and Amore's arthritis. Also trails to ride.

The second place was interesting because the first thing we saw was the massive and impressive Friesian stallion in the cross ties. Before we left, we saw a child riding around on him bareback in the round pen with the mother coaching. This place had only one boarder besides the owner, and the main herd of about 7 horses is turned out on 50 acres. Cons were that the boarder with the Friesian has three other two year old colts, making a total of four studs on the property. The stallions are separated, and the colts are Friesian crosses out of the Friesian stud, soon to be sold. Of course Amore is 28 now, so there is no concern about her getting bred accidentally. 

The horses have hay available under shelter, but are out 24/7 on the 50 acres. That's great, again unless some horses don't get along. There are trails, the owner trailers to the beach every weekend, and it is only a few minutes outside of town. No arena, but there is a small round pen. 

We spent a little time in town again, and we think it is one of the best towns on the coast. It's small, quiet, and yet has all the main amenities a person would need. Beautiful lakes, beaches and forest. I hope it will work out for us. We drove through the busier towns up north and they were crowded for spring break, but this town was still quiet. 

On Saturday we did the motorcycle class for four hours and it went well. Unfortunately, the town we went to for the class is known to be very trashy and it didn't work out well. We tried to stay up after the class so we could sleep well during the night at our motel. Some families with kids came in, and they were noisy but soon went to sleep. So we tried to go to bed, but around midnight some people checked in above us and were apparently doing meth because they banged drawers, turned up the T.V. and stomped around for hours and filled the tub and drained it at least six times. So we couldn't sleep at all since this sounded like it was raining down right on our heads. The front desk didn't care and wouldn't go talk to the people about being quiet at 2 a.m.

At 5 am DH said we couldn't do the motorcycle riding since there were 12 people on a small course and he felt we would be a danger to ourselves or others with no sleep. I wanted to try anyway, but soon agreed he was right. We called and left a message saying we had to cancel. Now we're trying to see if they will let us in on another class, hopefully they will since we've already spent a lot of time and money just trying to get through this. DH is about ready to give up altogether, and we still might. 

It was nice to visit the horses tonight and de-stress!


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## SueC

Isn't it exciting to dip your toes in the water when wanting to change something fundamental about life - such as where you live. Best wishes for finding "home"! 

One thing I've observed: If horses are roaming large areas, they don't have too many problems getting on. We've had no issues with the horses here on free-range, and some of them would have killed each other in the stable / small run environment they came from. Even the donkeys are safe with all the horses. Aggression really decreases when horses have lots of space, plus the distraction of grazing and exploring. Also, on large areas, horses can break up into separate groups if they want to.


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## knightrider

The walk to go get your horse really is a drawback. I used to have to allow 45 minutes of extra time to walk around looking for my horse when I had them on huge acreage. Didn't have to buy hay, though, in Florida. Grass grew year round. There were actually a few times when I ended up not riding because I just couldn't find the horses.:frown_color:

That's one of the reasons I have gotten in the habit of riding early in the morning. They come up to eat, and then I can take one to go riding. If I ride later in the day, even on 10 acres, I have to allow 15 minutes to walk around looking for them and then bringing one back to the barn.


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## gottatrot

@SueC, that was a beautiful song, thank you for sharing.

I made a video of our ride yesterday. 
It was a very good ride, and one thing that is great about our area is that the weather is unpredictable, and if it threatens rain it cuts down the amount of the people on the beach drastically.

Usually I don't leave all my talking on the videos, but I wanted to be able to evaluate how I was doing with being clear with reprimand/reward with Hero at this point in our relationship.

In the first minute, we let the horses stop and eat a couple of times. I've met some horses that had bad manners about this, due to not having clear boundaries placed by the rider. I believe if you are clear and consistent, horses can be very good about this, and it is a great way to make going out more positive. At 0:58 you can see how easy it is to just let Hero know it's time to move on and stop eating. Of course endurance horses need the skill of being able to break up working with eating.

As usual, Hero was able to pick up the canter very smoothly for the first few times. Once we turn around at 2:30 on the video, there is a lot of training going on for a couple of minutes. It's not perfect, but hopefully you can see how I am trying to allow every try and give the benefit of the doubt for Hero's attempts to get into a canter. 

You may not be able to tell, but the several times I say "hey," (like at 4:40) and/or give a smack with the crop, are when he goes beyond trying and begins throwing his body around i.e. kicking his hind legs out or popping the back end up. I'm able to ride him with longer stirrups now, which is more comfortable, but I still get off his back when I feel this type of movement coming, which is why you don't see the effects of the hind end coming up. 

At 6:12 you can see why I believe this training is helping/working, because he starts to buck as he begins the canter, I reprimand him, and then he smooths out and offers me a nice canter. It's a process, and a bit tricky. He definitely requires a rider that can attempt to understand when he is trying, allows him to keep learning and doesn't tense up or shut him down when things get less smooth. 

I know he can do this now, physically, but he still gets a little nervous about it. He still expects that after a time he's going to start locking up and lose the ability to keep up, so when we turn back for home he begins to worry and hop instead of going into a canter because he thinks he will not be able to go as fast as he would like, and that he will be left behind.

I also have to feel the difference between him simply being rough because he has to be, and him not trying and just bucking or kicking. At 7:20 you see a very rough canter, but he is not doing anything besides trying hard and cantering through the deeper sand here, so all I do is encourage him. His head goes down just to help him push and balance, not to buck.





(_music: Hans Zimmer - Time_)

I also want to talk about the reins. From what I've read on the forum and also what I got during lessons is that many people are taught to choose a rein length. Then they wonder what they are doing wrong because they struggle to deal with everything that happens with the horse. I remember trying to choose a rein length, putting my hands there, and then feeling like the horse shortened about a foot and suddenly my elbows were pulled back behind me. 

The right rein length is always changing. I move my hands fairly constantly and I believe it's an important skill to be able to quickly adjust the reins longer and shorter all the time. I think sometimes I do it so fast you might not even notice it. 
Sometimes a completely loose rein is appropriate. 

You might wonder if giving Hero a loose rein when he is working through the canter might be helpful for him. So far he's not that trustworthy, because he then degenerates into bigger and more animated bucking/hopping, and my rein needs to be there to discourage that and instead get him back into trying to canter. Along with the crop. His bucking can get big enough that it threatens my seat, and has at times. 

Anyway, this is my rationale for the current way I am working with him, and I do notice there are times now where he seems to really get into the working mode and relax. Thoroughbreds seem to be helped by getting out and doing some disciplined exercise. I've started having him sort out how to get over logs on the beach too, with the thought that he might enjoy jumping also. He is getting a very nice, big trot.


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## SueC

Your Shakespeare quote last week was so lovely I cried. Thank you. :hug:


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## SueC

That's a really interesting clip! I like how you do immediate praise in a really cheerful tone of voice the moment the horse does what you want him to. That very thing is such a great training tool - it's immediately there, and horses like it! I went riding yesterday through the neighbour's pasture, and was practicing pretty much what you are - allowing the horse to graze in a way that was a good mutual compromise. I know he wants to sample the offerings at the "neighbouring restaurant" and I'll steer him at an obvious good patch of grass and give him the reins, while resting my hands just in front of his withers - that's become his "free to eat" cue. When his mouth is stuffed full, I cue him to continue walking. Yesterday I could steer him at the next convenient tall patch of grass a distance away as he was chewing his last loot. And repeat.  It was like a gymkhana game - hahaha. Apple bobbing, without the wet face. :rofl:

It's great how far you have come with this horse. Just look at that canter - getting smoother by the day. It may seem strange to some people that something that's so taken for granted with many riding horses is something that you're happy to put so much effort into for this particular horse - but to me that's the mark of great horsemanship, rather than being a passenger. Also, it's these sorts of challenges and working through them that improve our ability to communicate with horses and to deal with difficult situations - and do you know, I think this also transfers to our ability to deal with people, and communicating effectively with them. It's sort of like mental and emotional permaculture. ;-) Nothing is just the thing that you see - everything has multiple benefits.

With OTSTBs, I've often had to work on the canter because horses that trained as pacers tend to pick up a disunited canter more often than horses that weren't trained in hopples (in which horses have to canter disunited if they lose their pace - or else they will bump into the loops painfully). It's some getting over past experience and conditioning. When a horse canters disunited, I just gently cue them back into a trot, praise, then cue to canter-on again - and big praise if they pick up correctly. Lots of rinse and repeat, but not overdoing it either - better to do a little bit every day, than to do that ad nauseam and overlength. You can judge the golden zone (not too little, not too much) for each individual horse by their demeanour - they have to stay relaxed, because when they're uptight, they're unlikely to get it right or to remember the lesson in a positive way. As you already know, this is just that compartment of my brain playing its algorithm! ;-)

I also like that your discouragements of various behaviours are just clear "nos" and you don't get emotionally upset with him - because when people do that, horses - especially sensitive horses - get upset themselves, plus an emotionally upset rider isn't a clear-thinking rider. The message is, "Not that!" instead of, "You bad horse!" Actually, it's "Not that!" - redirect - "Good boy, wow, you're so clever!" Works wonders. As does that sense of humour you're displaying. Very important! 

I love moody weather like that, and not just because it tends to keep most people indoors. :rofl: It's so cinematic, dramatic, electrifying - and Brett and I were so lucky - blessed I think - that the day we got married eleven years ago, we got a wonderful overcast and moody day in the late summer!


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## bsms

"You might wonder if giving Hero a loose rein when he is working through the canter might be helpful for him. So far he's not that trustworthy, because he then degenerates into bigger and more animated bucking/hopping, and my rein needs to be there to discourage that..."

Bandit has days like that. Sometimes you can relax and he'll cruise on a loose rein. Other times...keep some contact, and be ready for some hoppy cantering. Those are his bouncy days.

We have one corral gate without a chain. The balance keeps pressure on the bar you have to slide to open it. Bandit must have gotten it open this morning. Got home from cancelling our storage contract (we weren't actually using it)...and all 3 were out and Bandit had them racing at high speed, outside our inner corral but still inside our outer fence. He was excited! - and the other two mostly wanted to stay out of his way. 

Getting Cowboy back in the corral was easy. Trooper too. Getting Bandit back in took more work. He is who he is. And on any given ride, it means one may need contact. May need heavy contact. Or may need to say, "_Bucking at a canter is not helpful to anyone..._" I don't think that will change. It is both frustrating and part of what I like about him. Makes some rides a lot of work, and you never know what day will be a work day.

PS: That gate is now tied with baling twine. Chain to follow.


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## SueC

I was also just thinking of that children's game at Easter, when they're trying to find the Easter eggs hidden in various locations around the garden and you help the young ones along by saying, "Warmer...warmer...colder...warmer" as they get nearer or further from the hiding place. It's a bit like that when you're teaching a horse something new, too!


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## gottatrot

Thanks for all the helpful thoughts. Bandit sounds like such a character. Funny how with three horses "Bandit must have gotten it open..." You know who to blame.

Here are the sweaty horses after our ride, and Hero is trying to sneak from Nala's hay net.









I'm rushing to bring Hero a bin of hay, not sure if Nala is going to tolerate the hay thievery.


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## gottatrot

Poor Amore has an injury. 

Last night when I went to the barn she was lying down in her stall. This was unusual, especially because she didn't seem interested in the food I brought. She was acting oddly but it wasn't clear why. She seemed sort of groggy or sleepy, and at the time I was worried her heart might be giving out due to old age. She lay flat after awhile, breathed heavily and then when I was most worried she just got up and started eating normally. I picked up all her legs and looked her over, but couldn't find any problems. However, later I realized I hadn't walked her around but just watched her standing. She ate for a half hour and did not appear in any distress so after a while I left.

This morning I got a call that Amore was lame. Now I realize that she had probably recently injured herself the night before and was maybe worn out from the adrenaline rush and pain, and that is why she was lying down and appearing worn out. 

When I went to check on her she was in the field eating grass, but when I led her she was very obviously lame. At first I thought it was her hind end, but called the vet right away. I'll always remember when I thought Halla had a hind end lameness the first year she foundered, and waited several days to see if it would go away. 

Since it took a couple of hours for the vet to come, I watched a farrier trim Nala and Nala's rider helped me check over Amore some more. We decided it was her left front leg that was lame, and when I picked up the leg her shoulder muscle began showing obvious spasms. 

This was helpful when the vet came because I could lead him to check the right area pretty quickly. They are so good at palpating. I'd prodded her all over and been unable to find a specific point where she reacted. He was able to feel that there was a little thickening/swelling just above the back of the left front knee, and when he squeezed there she reacted very strongly. She didn't react to any other areas on her body. So the shoulder muscle was just reacting to the injury lower down. 

Most likely she slipped going down a hill with that leg behind her and pulled the tendon, is what the vet said. Due to her age and arthritis, she can't move the rest of her body as well to compensate, so her hind end is looking a bit lame also. It's probably making her sore all over. He gave her a shot of anti-inflammatory and I also will give her Equioxx for several days to see how she improves. She'll be in a smaller pen instead of out in the big pasture to encourage her to rest too. 

Poor old girl. The vet said to watch her closely since Cushing's horses don't always react as well to injuries and have "strange" things because their whole system is compromised.


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## SueC

I'm sorry to hear that, @gottatrot. :-( It's not nice when our oldies get ouchie. But it's nice we can help them. :hug:


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## bsms

I sometimes take a Motrin for breakfast. I can sympathize with Amore!


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## egrogan

Hope it turns out to be something simple and she’s feeling less sore soon.


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## gottatrot

Amore is doing a lot better already. I think she was looking a lot worse than the injury was due to maybe lying down more and getting overly stiff from her arthritis. Yesterday she was not even visibly lame, and I think the pain medications are helping her also keep from getting stiffer from not moving as much with the arthritis. It's interesting, her arthritis isn't that noticeable normally, because she is moving all the time.


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## phantomhorse13

Glad that the meds have kicked in and she is moving around again. Hopefully she is back to normal in no time.


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## gottatrot

Thank you! Amore is moving so well, I don't think it could have been a damaged tendon. More likely a pulled muscle, because she doesn't look lame, there's no appreciable heat and the swelling has gone down to almost nothing. Today she came trotting up to me which made me nervous, but she kept moving well after. I'll continue the Equioxx for a couple more days just to help any inflammation.
One thing about Amore is that she's always been extremely dramatic, and I've seen her dead lame before from a very minor issue like a sliver or a mild case of scratches behind the pasterns.

It rained heavily all day Saturday so Nala's rider and I decided to reschedule for a ride today. But when I went to the barn at 6 pm on Saturday, the rain had all cleared off and I was sorry we had canceled. Today it rained all day again, but we went to the barn at 4:30 anyway, and sure enough the rain stopped at 5. So we had a good ride on a mostly deserted beach.

Hero started out a little stiff - he often does when it's been raining a lot. Movement really helps those stifles so much. However, we had some great periods of cantering and not a lot of bucking, even more improvement from the last ride. I only swatted him for bucking hard twice. I told Nala's rider that it's been a lot of work but I'm having fun now with Hero each ride. 

There was tons and tons of seaweed and driftwood on the beach. I took Hero over dozens of small obstacles and practiced both telling him I wanted to steer around something, and wanted him to go right over something. We haven't tried hopping anything large yet. I want to make sure he feels very secure and can calm down after, so he doesn't just buck me right off.

Nala was on high alert today and we had to stop sometimes to wait while she stared at people moving in the dunes that were over a half mile away. 









For some reason the bald eagles rule the other raptors I guess. There was a band of about six vultures that were standing off to one side watching while a bald eagle stood and pecked at a dead carcass (maybe a baby seal). We wondered why the group didn't chase off the eagle, since they were almost as large as him and he was well outnumbered.

Hero enjoys making faces at Nala which are pretty good for a gelding but nothing like what Halla used to produce.









Most of the time he was a lot more relaxed. It used to be so difficult because he didn't know how to burn off his energy and would get all pent up and stuck. Now he's learning how to get forward and relax between periods of excitement.


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## gottatrot

We had a great ride last week, with Hero doing a good pace for what I consider a good distance (7-8 miles). There were lot of people on the beach for Easter weekend, many cars and fires. The horses did very well, and even when hot were manageable. 

I've been taking Hero over more and more obstacles. I've been reading that jumping can be very good for some horses with stifle issues. Today I lunged him and led him over some bigger logs than he's done, ones he had to get onto his hind end to hop over. He loves to jump and gallop on the lunge line, but doesn't try to get away. I'm noticing his trot is getting more extended and he's getting back on his hind end more, which is making his front legs come up in the air more. It looks cute. The last time we rode on the beach I looked back and didn't see any drag marks in the sand from him not lifting his hind legs up. That was a first. 

Hero has apparently been envious of the other horses with white markings, so has been decorating himself with white spots made of bird poop.

Amore seems recovered from her soreness and is moving well. 
I took video of the two of them grazing today, thinking it was funny how small Amore is compared to Hero. Both are excellent eaters. I know I say this a lot, but it makes me happy to see how good Amore looks for 28.


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## SueC

Wow, I didn't realise Hero was so tall! He seems to have a very dedicated personal physiotherapist too. ;-) And...it's always nice to see a well-loved horse looking good for its age.


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## Knave

Wow! That is pretty extreme, like Cash and Bones... He makes Amore look like a little pony.


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## gottatrot

Yes, Amore is really a pony. She is around 14.2 hands.
The saddles in both of these pictures are the same size, so you can see how much bigger it looks on Amore, and how my leg goes below her belly. I am guessing Hero is 15.3 hands. At least he is for sure 4 or 5 inches taller than Amore. 
















I was thinking yesterday about how I very much enjoy different types of horses, and an Arab certainly rides differently from a TB. You can maybe see why a person would want to have one of each. :smile:
Amore is a tad small though, in my opinion, not just because she's short but she's also light, around 750 lbs, so even someone my size has to ride carefully to keep everything in balance when going fast and around corners. It was always very easy to tip her over, even though she was very agile and cat-like and could get through any terrain.

Nala's rider is planning to trailer us to some trails at the state park on Monday, which sounds very fun.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Yes, Amore is really a pony. She is around 14.2 hands.


Just like my Arabian mare was. But they're Arabians... and it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog, as we've all found out!  :runpony:


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## gottatrot

The horses were in their corrals for the night when I went to visit the horses, trim Hero's hooves and go for a short ride. The elk were ranging around in the fields, and Hero was staring at them like he wanted to go chase them off (he often likes to), so I let him out to see what he wanted to do. Apparently tonight he thought just letting them see his attitude was enough.


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## egrogan

I am so fascinated that elk are like deer where you live. How do they come into the field? Over the fence? Through the strands? I just keep thinking about moose which don't generally tempt the fences, but when they do, tear the whole darn thing down with them since they're so awkward.


Also, since I have mud and sogginess on the brain, in your climate, does your field look this beautiful all winter and spring? Have you had to add drainage around the fields so water doesn't pool in it, or something else? The water table is so high here right now that walking on our front yard is like walking on saturated sponges; the water is just sitting on top of the ground since everything is so soaked. So you can only imagine how the horse's sacrifice lot and pasture is handling it...


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## Knave

Our wild animals are not nearly as gentle as yours. I wonder if it is because we have hunting seasons... today while we were pushing cows a herd of antelope trotted by. I love watching them. Last week another herd stood curious (at a much further distance than your elk of course) while we were mothering up, and I watched one occasionally try and get a closer look. 

What I loved today was all of the birds. Meadow larks sang us songs while we were mothering up in the first spot (I’ll show you a picture), then there were flicks of geese flying overhead a couple different times and a group of blackbirds that flew around as a school of fish in the ocean.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, so beautiful! How long will the snow stay on the mountains? 
We have hunting seasons here too. But still these few elk herds along the north coast have their habitat completely around homes and neighborhoods. They are desensitized to cars and people (so get hit by cars frequently). Since they don't leave to go up in the woods, they mostly are only hunted by those who have tags to take elk on their own property. 



egrogan said:


> How do they come into the field? Over the fence? Through the strands?


They hop over the fences. The horse fences are low enough they don't break them and they know they are electric. There are some wood post and rail fences on the property they break once in awhile because they get lazy and don't jump high enough. People who put in higher fences have issues with getting them broken all the time. Our neighbors have some hedges they wanted to grow together but the elk walk through the gaps and break the branches off so they won't grow into a solid hedge.



egrogan said:


> Also, since I have mud and sogginess on the brain, in your climate, does your field look this beautiful all winter and spring? Have you had to add drainage around the fields so water doesn't pool in it, or something else? The water table is so high here right now that walking on our front yard is like walking on saturated sponges; the water is just sitting on top of the ground since everything is so soaked. So you can only imagine how the horse's sacrifice lot and pasture is handling it...


On the west side of the highway, there were only sand dunes back when my dad was young (he's 83). Plants were brought in to stabilize the dunes, and eventually houses were built all over and even pastures were put in. So the pastures are completely on sand. They drain well, except in very wet years there will be puddles in the low spots. There is more concern for erosion, because too much traffic will turn them back into sand.

They stay green, but the grass gets very low over the winter and by this time of year is very short, just green cover. In May and June the grass will grow a lot and get longer. 

Everywhere else in this climate, the soil is more clay based. So mud is a concern at most barns since most are not on the small area west of the highway, which is also where the most expensive property is, since it's closest to the ocean. The huge acreage my barn is on has been in the owner's family for at least 80 years and it must be worth an unbelievable amount of money. 

In the rest of the area, most people have to divide their pastures into multiple areas to rotate so they don't turn into mud, and some people have smaller corrals where they put down geo-textile and pea gravel or sand to keep the horses in during the wettest weather. One barn I know of has a huge indoor arena for turnout, so the horses are in a covered pen with hay during the winter. 
Many pastures are also on steep hills for drainage, so there is not the issue with the boggy ground. 

At our last barn, part of the pasture turned into a swamp. I had to have Amore moved into another pasture, because most of the horses would avoid the swamp but Amore would wade in up to her shoulders and think it was great she didn't even have to put her head down to eat the marsh grass. She was like a moose. But her legs couldn't handle being bathed in mud for hours and she got scratches/rot.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, Hero is looking fantastic - great muscling and muscle definition, weight spot on, shiny, bright - it's lovely to see a horse in great condition!


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## Knave

Thank you Gotta. The snow will be there into the beginning of the summer. I know a patch is usually left on the 4th of July, because I remember there was a bet about it, and one of the men in the bet explained to me that he knew he would win it because almost every year he would look up on the 4th and see the snowpatch, but within a couple days it was always gone.


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## egrogan

@*gottatrot* , how fascinating that the land and how it functions is so different in each place. It's wonderful your BO has been able to keep the property going as farmland- it's so hard to resist development pressures, particularly in a place like where you live! I loved the image of wallowing Amore. Our pasture isn't _quite_ that bad, but I am impatiently waiting for things to be dry enough that we can get machinery in to lay down the geotextile and new, better draining footing.

@*Knave* , I am loving all the birds around too! The turkeys are out in large flocks with hopeful toms trailing the hens around.









I've also seen grouse out in the open a few times in the last couple of weeks, which is sort of unusual. And of course, waking up to the sound of songbirds is such a treat after a long winter!


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## gottatrot

@egrogan, those turkeys are so interesting. We don't have wild turkeys around here for some reason. I've read that Ben Franklin thought the turkey was more courageous and a better role model for people than the bald eagle, which scavanges and steals from other birds. 



SueC said:


> @gottatrot, Hero is looking fantastic - great muscling and muscle definition, weight spot on, shiny, bright - it's lovely to see a horse in great condition!


Thank you, I appreciate hearing that. I'm very strict (maybe obsessed) with keeping the animals to a good weight, as I think you are too. 

Today we went to the state park and did an 8 mile ride. We met up with a rider on her poor paint horse, and I say poor because she was not as fit as our horses but yet stayed right with us, and was as game as they come. Cheyenne's rider was watching out for her, and the little horse seemed to handle the ride well. 

The ride started out with two miles of winding dune trails, then two miles of wider trails through the woods. Then we went out to the beach, took a faster pace back two miles and then finished the last two miles back on the winding trails again.

I gave Nala a push to get her in the trailer, but Hero jumped right in eagerly. He's a great loader so far. As we drove, the horses were quiet (only a 15 minute ride), and Nala's rider said the horses had probably trailered many more miles than either of us had. Nala raced in New Orleans, went to California, and then up here. Hero was born in Washington, raced in Arizona, and then came back here. 

When we got out at the parking area, there were other horses there too. Hero was a bit hot to start out, but manageable, just jiggy/joggy and a bit sideways. He sweated for the first ten minutes and made faces at Cheyenne behind him. He wanted to look back at her, but also couldn't quite figure out how to stay in the narrow trail groove. A lot of the time his hind end came out and was off the trail.









The other horses were saddled when we got there and headed out a few minutes before us, but we soon caught up and asked if we should pass, which the other riders agreed to since we were going much faster.









The trails were beautiful, shady in spots and out of the wind. We came across a big elk herd, which crossed the trail a hundred yards in front of us uneventfully. Hero's heart was pounding so hard I could feel it between my legs but he stood quietly and waited for them to head off. 

On the beach it was very windy, the sand was great and Cheyenne's rider was willing to go faster with us. We cantered for at least a mile, and at four miles into the ride, Hero was able to pick up the canter smoothly. He loved it! Nala went ahead but Cheyenne stayed right on his tail and for once he was the fastest. He stretched out finally, far and went faster than he has with me. I just let him go for awhile because he felt stable and not about to buck. Eventually I felt him take a big breath as he tired, and I was able to take hold of him and let Cheyenne pass. Right when she went by he did a goofy gallop to protest, then slowed after several strides for me. When I slowed him, the others slowed ahead. 

Hero is getting fun to ride. Whenever he felt insecure he'd look to Nala for guidance. He's such a more solid build than Nala.








His 11th birthday was Sunday, and I realized he's still younger than my other two horses were when I got either of them. It's great to feel like we may have a lot of time together, and especially I'm happy that he is feeling so strong and capable. I felt today like his hind end issues were less than 10% of what they were when I first started with him. He kicked out a couple times, and had a wobble/slip out back there twice. Other than that, he was handling the narrow trails, the hills, the deep sand and all just fine. 

During the last two miles, we put Hero in front (Nala had been leading before) and he not only figured out how to stay in the narrow trail groove, he really enjoyed taking charge and leading the other two horses. I let him trot out and he was zooming around the tight corners, taking cues from where I was looking when he couldn't see the path. It was some great teamwork. 

The only problem Hero has is that he believes he cannot back out of the trailer. I tried and tried, but finally just let him turn around. It's a tight squeeze in a straight load, but he can just make it. 

Nala did something very silly which I'd never seen before. When we got home, she was still tied but tried backing and hit the butt chain. Instead of crouching or going forward again, she sat on the chain and lifted her hind legs off the ground. This popped the chain, it dropped, and then she just stood up, tested to make sure she was tied again, and then just walked forward and waited to be untied. She is very tricksy sometimes. It was quite hilarious seeing her sitting on the chain like she was a kid on a swing or something. Makes me wonder if she's done things like this before during her miles of travels...


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## phantomhorse13

Happy birthday Hero! Phin turned 11 last Thursday. Here's hoping they both have many, many years and miles left!


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## bsms

Bandit turned 11 a couple of months ago. He's 50 years younger than I am! mg:


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## SueC

Don't think about stuff like that, @bsms. It's bad for your blood pressure! ;-)


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## gottatrot

Nala is really a beautiful horse. Her owner thinks about breeding her sometimes. I love her spring dapples.









Hero and Nala had a lovely 8 mile ride today. 

After our last ride, Hero had minor back soreness near the back of the saddle, so today I used my dressage saddle instead of the endurance one I've been riding in for quite awhile now. 

After the ride today his back did not seem sore, so I think the dressage saddle is sitting just a little closer over his back and moving less, especially since it can be used with a shorter girth.
For awhile I was needing a shorter stirrup to keep from getting bucked off his back, so the super straight flap of the dressage saddle wasn't working. Now I'm able to ride with a longer stirrup, so it was fine. 

I'm learning that Hero is able to canter much better after a long warmup, so we did a little cantering during the first several miles but it wasn't real smooth. Then after we had gone about four miles, he was able to get into a nice canter and sustain it for about a half mile or so. 

I tried riding without gloves today since I noticed there was a lot of slip with my woven reins on the last ride. My fingers got a little sore, but I was definitely able to moderate better when the reins were giving and when I was gripping well to pull Hero's head up when necessary.

There's a lot of managing to do, since Hero would love to canter along with his head quite low, and although I can usually ride the hind end elevation with the head up, I'm not so great at it if he's already going along with his head down. So I pull him up, because every once in awhile, this stuff happens.









I did lose my stirrups today, because I took Hero over a log, and it was fun except on the other side he hopped right, and I lost the left stirrup, and then he hopped left immediately after, so I lost the right stirrup. Then the "jaws of life" in my thighs kicked in and I managed to get everything sorted and my stirrups back.

We went down a wooded trail we haven't been on in a long time. I think I've had Hero on it once. We used to take Nala and Halla on it a lot, but I haven't had Hero fit enough to go that far until now, since it's at least three miles just to get to the start of it, and then a mile or so down the trail before we can turn back for home. 

What I thought was interesting and funny was that it was much easier to navigate the narrow spaces between trees on big Hero versus little Halla. She just zoomed so fast that even though she was smaller I couldn't react fast enough to adjust her trajectory before we were super close to the tree trunks. I used to wince a lot riding down that trail. But both Halla and now Hero liked to try breaking into a canter, even though that is too gnarly for a rider trying to avoid getting knocked by trees overhead and on either side. 

Hero still can't canter if Nala gets too far ahead. His anxiety makes him just hop around in place so I have to get him trotting out instead. But I'm getting very comfortable with him, and he is with me too, so even when he gets upset I'm telling him he's all right and both of us think it's going to be OK. My body is getting used to his hopping and the galumphing that he does.

The elk were ranging over a hill in the neighborhood where they usually never are, so Hero was looking at them when another sound came from the left and he overreacted. He ran three steps sideways, then half reared and spun back, but my body didn't have any trouble following that so I think my neurons are beginning to get attuned to his movements. At first I think I was having more trouble because my body was following him (subconsciously) too fast, and I was "jumping in front of the horse" so to speak. When he'd dart, my brain expected "Halla" which was a different sort of lightning. His streaks go longer and farther but not _quite_ as fast. Bigger horse. :smile:

Do I think other people would enjoy riding my boy? Probably not. I'm having a great time.


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## Knave

That sounds like a nice ride Gotta! I am glad you are enjoying him. 

Cash also wants to do everything with his head down at the ground. He doesn’t tend to add the kicking up when he’s like that, but he falls. He’s done a lot better this spring, as I’m asking him to stand up and use his shoulders, but still he stumbles around occasionally. 

So, I’m always asking him to bring his head back up a bit. I don’t mind if it’s low, but not that low! I think it’s something I do to them. Bones lopes around like that often and so did General. I completely trust Bones with his feet, so my only worry with him is to keep enough slack out of the reins so he doesn’t step on them. Cash though! Ugh. He can start loping with his head on the ground after he stops falling down! Lol


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## phantomhorse13

I would find the head down thing very unnerving, even without the added bonus of unexpected hind end actions! The joys of being used to riding giraffes..


Sounds like you and Hero are finding your mutual happy place, which is a very good thing. Certainly a very good thing for him that he wound up with you!


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## bsms

"_Then the "jaws of life" in my thighs kicked in..._"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"_Do I think other people would enjoy riding my boy? Probably not. I'm having a great time._"

Isn't it wonderful to be able to enjoy your horse without worrying if someone else would?

Bandit does the head low thing once in a while. It puts him off balance and he stumbles. He has also tossed in a few bucks enough times in his life that I don't trust him with his head down. And he only does it in the arena. In the open, he naturally collects enough to be able to look around. I think the uneven ground and the parts where the good-looking ground will sometimes give way under him have taught him a bit of caution.

In the arena, less caution is needed. And he's more likely to give me the Middle Hoof Salute, so to speak. So our cantering looks like this (couple years old picture):








When his head goes lower in the arena than that, he may not be wishing me well. He's never bucked hard, and I'm told he can, so it is an open question if they are just good spirits or the Middle Hoof Salute. In the open, if he isn't looking around, his head is lower at all speeds. BTW: Those two pictures are about a quarter second apart. I combined them a little while ago to show how "position" cannot be static, although the books always show it as one "perfect" moment in time!


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## SueC

Galumphing is such a great word!  Glad you're having fun.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> BTW: Those two pictures are about a quarter second apart. I combined them a little while ago to show how "position" cannot be static, although the books always show it as one "perfect" moment in time!


Yes, when you posted recently about riding crooked or straight, I was wondering how many photos are sorted through before they are put online or in magazines.








Yeah...we all ride in a fixed, balanced state...all the time.
Especially dressage riders, they're the best.









Glad to hear I'm not the only one unnerved by a lowered head and neck. It can be perspective though - riding with a gal who only rode quarter horses, she said she felt like the Arab she was riding was about to rear because he carried his head so high.

Word is out that we are running an animal rescue...the dog was growling this morning when I took him out in the yard after work, because an opossum was in the yard. The opossum was gimping along on a bad front leg. Apparently he heard I would help him with it. Sadly, the wildlife rehab and my vet said that our state requires any oppossums brought in be euthanized. They are not a native species. 

So what do you think we did? Brought him in to be euthanized? 
Right. The vet said the opossum's leg might heal OK if he is kept safe and fed. We have a chain link dog run attached to the house that came with the house - we usually keep our kayaks in there. We put cardboard over most of the concrete, made a cave out of some dog kennels and put some plants and wood in there. So far he's eating everything I give him - cat food, carrots, sardines, blueberries, seeds, rat food. 

Humans introduce an animal, then regret it. Not the opossum's fault. He's a gentle soul that gets rid of a lot of ticks and other pests in the garden. We'll see how he does, but at least he'll have a chance.


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## gottatrot

The opossum looks like this:


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## Knave

I would have done the same thing. Lol. Husband would have thrown a fit though.


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## SueC

How did you catch the fella? Is he about cat sized? And good luck! 




Knave said:


> I would have done the same thing. Lol. Husband would have thrown a fit though.


Only if he knew about it. :Angel:


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> How did you catch the fella? Is he about cat sized? And good luck!


He is about the size of a small cat, probably around 8 lbs or so. 
Opossums are so docile, I just put a cat carrier in front of him and maneuvered it around his head and shoulders, then pushed on his bottom and he went in.

He's still eating good and drinking water. Today DH and I had a long discussion about how to handle and treat him. We decided I would be better at handling him, so I scruffed him and held onto the base of his tail, and it was quite easy to pick him up. We put a towel around his head just in case he decided to bite. Then we checked out his bad leg. He seems to be a boy.

We call him "Paulie" for some reason. My sister thought we should call him O'Grady the O'possum. 

Paulie's leg seemed to move fine, the bones felt straight, and it appears to be either his wrist or fingers/toes on the left front leg that are injured. We straightened out his wrist and wrapped it up with vet wrap, not too tight. Then reinforced with some duct tape strips. It seemed to be supportive, so if he leaves it on it might help. Hopefully he might be getting around on it OK in a couple weeks.

He tolerated the handling well without going into possum mode (involuntary shut down) or emitting the strong odor they have for defense, so that was good. I always wondered what opossum fur felt like, it's very soft and fuzzy like a cotton ball.

I know people get weirded out by animals I think are cute, like rats. But Opossums are really cute. I think it would have been terrible if Paulie had to be put to sleep just because of a bad wrist or fingers. Seems quite minor and recoverable.


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## SueC

mg: @gottatrot, those opossums are _so_ cute... :loveshower:

I've often thought something must have gone awry in my wiring. I find these fellows adorable, also bats, and most juvenile animals, but not babies. I don't have the baby gene... I think human babies look like larvae... not like most other young mammals. But I think toddlers are cute! 

I hope this one makes it.


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## ChasingDreams

The opossum is cute, but they do have some wicked teeth so glad you are being careful!

Going back to the lowered head, Chase (being a paint/stock horse bred by a barrel racer) was sent to a western trainer to be started. They must have really worked on the “long and low” training that is so popular in western circles, because when I went to try him initially I thought he was going to trip over his own muzzle! The girl selling him said, “I think he was trained to go like that” and I agree, he seemed to anticipate that was what I expected.

When I started riding him more myself, I worked with more contact and encouraged his head up so that he can see where we are going. After not too long, he started going like a normal horse.

I don’t understand what is so desirable about a horse running with his nose to the ground like a bloodhound [emoji23] I understand the mechanics and how it helps them to lift through their backs... but, for trail riding or pretty much any riding where they need to be able to see the path ahead, it’s just not very practical in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gottatrot

My opinion is that the horse going around "long and low" doesn't actually help the back, but rather puts more weight on the forehand which allows the horse to use the hind end less. Quite some time ago I noticed that horses with hind end issues often preferred to go around with a lowered head, and as the hind end got stronger, the horse would raise the neck and stop pulling around with the front end as much.

Murphy's law was in full effect today...I was discussing separation anxiety in a thread on the forum recently. So what happened today? Hero and Amore suddenly had an issue. 

Does Amore mind leaving Hero? Ever? No.
Does Hero mind leaving Amore? Ever? No.

The background was two days of extra warm/lethargic weather. Then today it was cloudy, cool and windy. Everyone felt energetic.

Took the horses out, saddled Hero, and put Amore in the outdoor arena. Walked Hero away, and Amore began running up and down and whinnying loudly. Hero whinnied back, and started getting antsy. Amore called louder as we went out of sight.

I stopped Hero from leaping and rearing around the mounting block long enough to get on. Then we slowly made our way back toward Amore, after Hero reared several times and got really upset. Once we were back in sight, Amore discovered the grass and calmed down. I rode Hero around the outer perimeter of the arena a few times, and then got off and led him away so I could ride him around some different fields.

As soon as we headed off, Amore started running and calling again. Silly horse. Hero was confused because she was calling but we were heading toward the pastures with Nala and the other horses. He bounced a bit but then settled down (mostly), and we trotted around the fields. He reared and hopped a couple more times, but then began to get calm and eventually we headed back to where Amore was. This was again confusing for him to leave the main herd and go toward Amore, but he could hear her calling for him.

Once we "rescued" Amore, everyone was fine. 

Paulie the Possum didn't bother going in his den tonight but just sat looking at me while I got his food ready. He wasn't quite brave enough to eat it in front of me, but sniffed and yawned, which I assumed was similar to when my dog yawns because he is conflicted about something. I touched his fur again - so soft. He is still wearing the wrap we put on his paw, and I saw him putting some weight on it. 
DH says, "What if when we open the gate to let him out, he doesn't leave?" I said, "Then I guess we'll have to keep feeding him." He got crickets, mealworms and shrimp from Petco tonight, along with his usual smorgasbord.


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## bsms

I find this deeply disturbing - a sign people are listening to other people instead of their horses:






In any case, here is a rather bitterly contested 2016 thread on horse's rounding their backs:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-horse-activity/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/

Of course, no one has to like how I ride (other than my horse) and many would say I truly suck at riding. But...to drag in a different topic as an analogy...I think it is kind of like dieting. For decades, people have been told to eat a low fat diet. As low as possible. And anyone who has fought the battle of the bulge has heard, "It is all just calories in, calories out" - as if our bodies were automobiles.

I think the scientific evidence now strongly indicates "calories in, calories out" is oversimplified to the point of being utterly misleading. I think the evidence from science is fat can be healthy if it is naturally occurring types of fat, and that hormones play a huge role in weight gain. And yet for nearly 50 years the experts have told us this is wrong. I've had doctors - often very overweight doctors - lecture me on how to lose weight, telling me to eat lots of carbs and just "show some willpower". Because they are the experts!

And all the while, Americans have been gaining weight. And almost none of the experts would stop chanting long enough to notice what was happening to the people around them!

So much with horses seems to involve an echo chamber where the experts are always people who show and judge and the trail riders are the country bumpkins who don't hold their forks the right way - or sit the right way. There has been a thread on keeping one's stirrups. Truth is, even I was surprised when I watched a world champion barrel racer riding a world champion horse in slow motion. She was doing everything "wrong" and yet her stirrups stayed on. She did too, which amazed me.






You couldn't pay me to try to ride that horse. I'd probably fall in the first half-second. But a video like that challenges my thinking. A picture like this seems to challenge traditional ideas on both how much a horse can round its back AND keeping stirrups on...and challenging is good:








PS: When Bandit starts to get his head really low, I start wondering if he's thinking of rounding his back...:rofl:


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## SueC

When my horse gets his head really low, it's because he is snacking on a nice patch of something when we are crossing a pasture. :Angel:

At no other point. The first time I saw a Western Pleasure class, I was 13 and at my first show in Australia. I was going  - I'd never seen anything like it before. Horses going along the ring in slow-motion like they'd all been Rohypnol'd, faces nearly dragging on the ground, riders up there in their bling. It was sort of like lawn bowls on horseback, only less exciting, and with non-consenting parties. I said to another teenager, "Why don't they ride rocking horses instead, and give their poor horses to someone who will let them move, and carry themselves like a horse?"

Love the Paulie update, @gottatrot. When he does something interesting, will you make a little clip for us?


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## gottatrot

@SueC, the problem with pictures or video so far is that Paulie is staying in his dark den in the daytime, and is more active after dark. We have an infrared camera we were thinking of putting in the pen to get video of what he does at night.

I think with horses or diets, it comes down to what works. 
With people and food, many are eating like they're athletes when in reality they're barely active. 

It's very difficult when people have emotional ties to food that make eating more like having a cigarette than getting necessary fuel. We have people get very upset in the hospital because we don't have the food they wish to eat. If you want something in particular and all I have is a sandwich, soup or yogurt, if you really are hungry it should be OK. Many act like they will suffer dire consequences if the food their emotions wish for is not available.

Not to mention those who panic when we have to keep them without food or water before surgery. This is under medical supervision, with IV hydration and calories being given. Yet people fear that not taking in food by mouth for a few hours will be dangerous for them. Some could live on their body's stores for weeks. 

I think people are complex and we don't understand how and why the body processes and stores things yet. For example, cutting cholesterol from the diet does not lower it in the blood for many people. Taking medications to reduce cholesterol can induce memory loss, which makes sense since cholesterol is necessary for brain function. People need calcium for strong bones. Yet we are only beginning to discover why people deposit calcium in the blood vessels and get hardened arteries.

With horses, there are the people who tell you how to do everything "just right," which apparently will seriously affect the horse and his performance if you do things wrong. Yet somehow the "just right" can be different depending on what the judges are looking for in each discipline. Then of course if you get above a certain proficiency level, you can do no wrong, because you've transcended instruction and somehow if YOU do it wrong it's OK. 

Horse fads are every bit as pervasive as fads in life. Everyone accepts long and low now, and thinks horses going around with curved over necks are moving correctly. Blue and pink hair is apparently prettier than brown or black hair now, and around here if a guy wants to be cool he has to have a beard. We find it kind of funny because being a different and unique individual now means you don't have a tattoo and have your hair a normal color. I remember when the tattoos and unusual hair meant you were trying to be different, now it means you are trying to fit in with everyone else.


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## bsms

When I was in the 9th grade, I decided to lose weight. After all, I couldn't see my toes. So I just cut back what I ate, and walked a lot more, and kept cutting back what I ate. The good news? I lost 45 lbs over about 8 months! The bad news? I still had fat deposits I wanted to get rid of, but my diet was then below 1,000 calories a day and I hadn't lost any more weight for nearly 2 months! I had taken up jogging, and rode my bicycle to school (5 mile round trip) and often rode 10-15 miles on Saturday...and wasn't losing weight.

That was my first lesson in the battle of the bulge. I have long since accepted that I will never be "slim". At one point in college, after being sick a few months, I was down to 5'8" & 115 lbs - and I still had a significant layer of fat around my waist! My cheeks were hollow. I was weak. And...I still had a couple of spare inches around my waist! 

I would agree that there are many causes to obesity. Lots of folks don't fight. Or don't care. But a lot of us have noticed that pretty much ANY diet will get SOME weight off. Getting it all off, and keeping it off...there's the rub!

I haven't been very fat since the 9th grade. But I have nearly 50 years of experience trying to not get very fat. I probably sound frustrated. Maybe a bit angry - with myself, not anyone of this forum. Those are pretty common emotions too for those of us who struggle with our weight! Because you can listen to doctors or nurses, do exactly what they and the government and the panels of experts say - and fail!

The Obesity Code argues the problem is in how dieting and "not dieting" affect our hormone levels. The studies he quotes match my experience. However, unlike him, I'm not certain there is an answer. Not if "answer" means "become slim and trim".

In a sense, it is kind of like riding. It is a compromise. Without doing unreal amounts of exercise while following a strict diet every day, I may not be able to become "slim". So maybe "less fat" needs to become my goal. I'll also never be a beautiful rider - beautiful in terms of grace, not appearance. But with some modification of my goals, my horse & I can be happy in what we CAN do instead of what we will never be!

If I define success in dieting/exercise as being able to fit into 33 inch jeans, success seems possible. If it means getting into 29 inch jeans....well, prepare for disappointment! And if I look too stiff and awkward on my horse, yet I stay on him and don't interfere with his back or create excessive peak impact forces on him...maybe THAT is "success"? Watching Bandit and Mia before him, horses seem to judge me by how hard I try to help them! They are a very forgiving couple of creatures!

One of the ways horses have changed me, starting at age 50, is to teach me to accept things. Not to be "perfect", but to accept "good enough". And by extension, to learn to look at people around me, in my family, church, etc and learn to accept them by their "try" instead of wanting them to meet some goal set by someone else that they cannot meet.

I've always liked this picture of Bandit and I. We're about to drop into a small, narrow wash. It isn't difficult, but I'm giving Bandit a moment to smell & think, so he'll be ready to do what I want him to do. We are not sailing effortlessly over a 5 foot oxer. We aren't hearing adoring crowds cheer us. But we're just out in the desert, doing what we do together. And honestly? Bandit won't sweat an extra 10 lbs on me. We're together, doing what we both seem to enjoy. Like a good marriage, isn't that "good enough"?


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## SueC

@bsms , were you stressed out a lot as a young person? Stress leads specifically to abdominal fat deposition. A friend of mine is recovering from anorexia and she says even she still gets the fat deposits around the umbilicus in times of stress, even when all her ribs are visible. I had a lot of stress growing up and around the navel was also the first place I would put on fat, even when the rest of me was underweight. These days this is my fat micromanagement zone. If I have too much carbohydrate for the level of activity I'm doing, I can tell within a day by the increase in the "pinch test" in that area. De-stressing, exercising and good eating all have to be combined for me to stay in good shape. And yes, once you have the adipocytes, then short of liposuction they're going to stick around, and put out "Feed me!" messages like Audrey II...


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## Knave

It is always so interesting to read your posts @bsms. I tend to fall on the “too thin” side of things. My brother does as well. The Air Force eventually waved the weight requirements for him because he tested so high intellectually. I think he had a crazy high test, but I might lie if I said how high, so I will just say it was extreme. 

Now, he is 6’2” or so, and he struggles to reach 125. His health is terrible because he cannot gain weight. They can’t figure why. I too can get too thin, but he gave me some of his weight gainer, and if I work out consistently I can maintain about 130. If I stop working out hard I lose it all. Crazy right?

I tend to look to the horse corral for my answer. Some horses are fat and some are thin and they maintain a very similar diet. I am sure some get more feed due to faster eating skills, but Beamer is ran off of hay and the fattest of the bunch by a long shot.

This brings me to the conclusion that fit is fit. Sure, some of us could gain and some could lose, but I think as long as we are relatively fit we are doing all right. There is no standard that needs to be met. I get fit to gain, where you get fit to lose. We are not all made to look the same. It is funny we all try to look a certain way, or even get a horse to look a certain way. I think that’s not how it actually works.

As far as riding goes, there is no standard to meet of looking a specific way. If you are accomplishing what you set out to accomplish it really is irrelevant how you look doing it. 

This will be funny to you, but I get teased for riding with my heels down. Everyone is convinced I am doing it wrong. In another setting I would be praised for my heels down posture. It really doesn’t matter to me. I do hate when I see a picture where I am hunched over, but honestly that is only because I don’t like the way it looks, not because it is detrimental to what I can accomplish.


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## SueC

@Knave, I always knew you had magic powers! You've managed to like post #2886 twice! :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## bsms

@SueC, I probably was stressed as a kid. We moved every darn year, or close to it. Always the new kid on the block, which in the 60s meant you were expected to fight. I took refuge in books. My guess though is that my "fat magnet belly button" is genetic. My uncles on my Mom's side all were the same way. Lean arms and legs. No butt. Belly fat.

I'm sure being a fat kid was part of it. That was over eating. Comfort food. I understand my horses thinking that nothing says love like food! I do believe that someone who has been very fat as a young child may be doomed to struggling with it the rest of their lives.

I've spent a week now trying a "16:8 Diet", although for my eating habits I've made it an "18:6 Diet". It may be helping. I'll admit I am eating less simply because eating a day of food in 6 hours isn't very appetizing. I find skipping a meal easier than limiting my meal. So at noon I eat a big meal and just don't have room for much by 5PM. My goal is no solid food between 6PM & noon, although coffee is fine. The world doesn't want to deal with what would happen if my coffee was denied!








https://www.prevention.com/food-nutrition/healthy-eating/a21992175/16-8-diet-benefits/

https://www.menshealth.com/uk/nutrition/a749933/mh-trials-hugh-jackmans-16-8-diet/

My last physical was 2 years ago. The lady giving it was twice my weight, so she didn't say anything about mine...:angel2:


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## SueC

@bsms, it is so sad that so many of us have experienced such pain early on in life. I'm sorry about those horrible aspects of your childhood. I'm sure I can speak on behalf of our little journalling group to say we love you and wish you every happiness for your here and now. And here's something nice from Kahlil Gibran, which I and some people close to me have personally found to be very true:

*On Joy And Sorrow*

_Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.

Some of you say, "Joy is greater thar sorrow," and others say, "Nay, sorrow is the greater."
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits, alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.

Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy._


:hug: to all of you, and I hope _all y'all_ have a great week! Including Paulie! 

And don't forget to ride! :cowboy:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> One of the ways horses have changed me, starting at age 50, is to teach me to accept things. Not to be "perfect", but to accept "good enough". And by extension, to learn to look at people around me, in my family, church, etc and learn to accept them by their "try" instead of wanting them to meet some goal set by someone else that they cannot meet.


I have decided that every creature struggles with food or weight in some way. I mean look at our horses, dogs, cats, they're all either bordering on thin or fat. 
Everyone I know either tries to lose weight or gain weight or eat something different than they are. I agree with @Knave (who I agree has super powers - liking that post twice!) that being fit is the most important thing. Who would want to be one of those supermodels, with their thin yet flaccid arms and legs? What I think is great is being strong and able to do things like lift bags of grain and run all the way home after your horse after you got bucked off.
Besides, what feels comfortable to you and meets your idea of feeling good is what is important, right? Who else is going to live in your body except you?

What @bsms posted is excellent. I am understanding more and more the beauty of mediocrity.


> ...We equate excellence with accomplishment, and mediocrity with a lack of accomplishment. But does life really work like that ?...
> 
> ...Human beings find themselves in a kind of trap. They cannot have it all — glory, omnipotence, fantastic wealth — and also love, respect, intimacy, closeness, a well lived life, if you like. Not now, not ever. There is a very solid, empirical, tradeoff between the two — which is, of course, what all the prophets and sages and wise men of history have said, too. The most they can do is find the right balance, mean, point between the two...
> 
> ...We are only little things, made of dust. Never let us suppose for a moment that we must be anything else.


https://umairhaque.com/why-mediocrity-and-excellence-arent-what-we-think-they-are-68beba01fcb6
Do you know any people who are the best at horse shows, or great musicians, fantastic athletes, or great at anything that are also very happy? I've come to realize that being great at something means you must neglect many other things that give happiness. Including great relationships with people and even animals. 

DH and I were discussing the other day how we don't seem to accomplish a whole lot of things that others would feel are important; they take us a very long time. Our house does not look like anything on HGTV inside, not up to date or stylish. The furniture is a mish mash of stuff that works and all I can ever promise is hygienic. The grass often gets long and weeds grow in the yard. But that's because neither of us can help wanting to enjoy life as we go, rather than living for some unknown future where we accomplish enough or get everything perfect enough. I don't give up any horse rides in order to shop or organize the house, and we practice our violin and cello when we might be thinking about what would make the yard look fancier. We get enough sleep and go to the beach and play with the dog and cats. I don't succeed at any horse shows or win running races, because I don't make any one thing the focus of my life. 
So we don't seem very successful, but I think the mediocrity of our lives makes it great. 

Here's to "good enough," the secret to happiness!


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## ChasingDreams

I’m much like you! I’m an “experience” over “possession” type of person. I’d rather spend money on a vacation, or a fun day out with my kids.... then home decor, or a new couch. My house is also sanitary, but not stylish. I will not have the newest, most stylish clothes or the most trendy hair, done every 4 weeks. I cut my hair a few times a year, when it gets too long lol

My husband is a bit more on the materialistic side, so it’s sometimes a conflict area for us. Not because he really cares, but more out of social anxiety... he worries how our family is perceived. All I worry about, is how healthy and happy our family is [emoji2372]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knave

Superpowers! Actually, the forum has been glitchy for me the last couple days. It locked me back a few pages, put that post, as well as one on @SueC ‘s journal, right in the middle.

Anyways, it was like, oh, I can’t believe I missed this. Then, when in the correct place later it said I didn’t already like it so I did.


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## gottatrot

I had a post about a ride on Monday but it seems to have disappeared. Forum glitches.

Anyway, we got some video of Paulie during the night. He took his last wrap off his paw and every time I've seen him he was looking comfortable, so I was hoping maybe he only had a sprain or something and he didn't need a splint. But in the videos he doesn't put any weight on his paw, so we will have to get him splinted again tomorrow. I've been watching some videos online of how to splint animal legs, so hopefully we can get one that will stay on this time. I think we'll have to keep him for awhile.


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## SueC

Oooh, isn't he lovely!  He does look like he needs splinting; maybe a bitterant will be useful, or one of those head-cones. It's so hard to stop even our dog from interfering with dressings, unless something like that is used. Best wishes with it!


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## egrogan

@*gottatrot* , this one's for you! 

https://wgno.com/2019/05/16/video-local-musicians-want-you-to-help-rescue-orphaned-opossums/

(Sorry I can't embed the video here, but it's a Facebook link so not allowed on HF. The guitarist is a friend's son's music teacher :grin


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## gottatrot

@egrogan, that was great!! :smile:









I was hoping the forum might end up restoring the post I lost about our horse ride on Monday, but it didn't. It's hard to tell the story again because thoughts move on. 
The highlights were: 
-We ended up crossing some mud flats as in the above picture, which Hero did not believe he could cross at all. Nala was prancing all over them, but he thought he'd sink until I got off and led him through.

-Our reroute took us through a posh neighborhood, so Nala of course pooped on the road.

-I left my crop at home and discovered I don't need it anymore.

-I experimented with various ways of riding Hero's canter and had some very comfortable moments. He definitely prefers that I move the reins actively with his movement rather than bridging over his shoulders and having his own movement pull the reins forward. 

-Both horses did massive spooks when we passed a bonfire we thought they were tolerating fine, until something crackled or moved in the fire. Both Nala's rider and I rode it fine, and on the way home it was entertaining to see the deep plants the horses' front hooves had made in the sand, and just how far we'd veered off our path. 

-Just like I originally realized Hero had a stifle issue when I could predict his bucking and kicking with going down hills and in deep sand, now I can definitely say that any behaviors he does now have no correlation to any particular activity. Meaning, I can predict that he will be able to go through deep sand, and down hills, with no problem. Every issue he has now with squealing, rearing, hopping etc have quite obvious triggers by emotionally distressing moments (passing something scary, Nala running out of sight). 

This is great, since his physical issues are not in play and all he needs is more practice and experience with controlling his emotions.
Nala's rider still hears me yelling, "Stinker!" quite often.









Hero's hooves are looking better and healthier each trim. All four have gained more concavity, and he now walks over gravel without gimping. They look very small, but are functional. It is a problem that people look at TB hooves and think they should be bigger, but making them bigger by letting them flare out does not make them healthier. 
Tiny hooves, big body. In contrast, Amore is tiny and has great big hooves. 









I believe a crooked hoof makes a crooked body makes a crooked hoof. When you get a horse with hoof and body issues, there's almost no way to tell what will correct and what will not. They always say you don't trim a straight hoof onto a crooked leg. But it's also so tricky knowing which is compensating for what. What I do is try to get the body functioning better, and trim the hoof according to how the sole appears to want to grow in. Eventually, over months, things change. I just manage the flaring and see if it grows down better, and try to get the hoof capsule to grow on tighter. 

The hoof improvements slowly change the body function, and the body function slowly changes the hoof growth. So you need both to improve or nothing will change. Most of Hero's body and hoof issues are slowly going away...but I'm not sure if we could have managed any of this without the stifle injections he had and the Equioxx he's still getting. I am hoping that if his body strength gets to a certain level, and his hoof health gets to a certain level, he may function so normally he won't need the medication. But I want to wait until I feel quite sure everything is balanced so we don't go backwards.


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## gottatrot

Today my friend from work was given a horse named Bandit. She's been without a horse for a couple of years, just bought 5 acres which doesn't have fencing or a barn yet, but someone offered her this horse so she will board him for awhile across the road from my barn. He's pretty cute, a bit different looking from the other Bandit we know.









Hero went out with me for some lunging exercise on the beach. TBs are like greyhounds sometimes, when they're not running full bore they're often sleepy. Hero just has so much character, and does not believe in letting anyone wonder what he is thinking or feeling - he just lets it all out. 

It was quite funny how he was falling asleep with his feed bucket before our outing, and also at one point where he took a bite off a drift log on the beach and spat it out.





I'm rather proud of how he is finally getting some chest and neck on him. 









He was being quite a goof on the beach:
































Well, the song from Audioslave says "Be Yourself."


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## Dragoon

Your horse is beautiful thanks for sharing him!

I've come to realize that my problem with the bucking tb I ride isn't with getting her not to buck. I need to ride better. She's just expressive. You never have to wonder what she's feeling! I love that about her!

For me, there has been a big difference between falling off a horse and getting launched off at higher speeds. All the falling I have done up till now hasn't affected me like this mare has. I haven't ridden her in a year due to fear.
Now I am paying someone to ride out her...strong opinions...while I get comfortable with her milder ones. We are making progress! If we both relax our attitudes, maybe we can meet in the middle...
Cheers!


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## Knave

Gotta, you should be proud! He looks wonderful.
@Dragoon, I am always so excited to see you post something. You never fail to have something interesting to say. I think it is great that you are having someone help. Losing confidence is not worth it at all.


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## Dragoon

Thank you Knave! <3

I love this mare, and am relieved to have the realization that she is "normal". 
I thought because she bucked, she was 'broken', and needed to be fixed. I have had a sheltered education with horses, only learning to ride this past 5 years, and on broke school ponies at a small riding place. The uneducated tb mare sure seemed 'wild' three years ago...

I have followed Hero's journey with interest...and Gotta's assessment of him. She is enjoying her horse, and doesn't think he is broken for bucking. Its a means of expressing himself and is a part of his range of behaviours...I have changed my thinking. The mare doesn't need to be fixed so much as I just need to ride better. And prepare her for riding better. And get a better mindset regarding her. I've been sooo sheltered! LOL

She is weak, and not confident balancing herself in the smallish indoor arena. And what I thought was bucking is not really bucking...she more just kicks out her hinds. (Mostly...) In frustration, or just rebalancing. She is improving so much! NOW I can see it. I'm grateful for reading people's journals. Cash bucks, Bones, Bandit and Hero bucks...and y'all don't think your horses are broken. Far from it...


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## Knave

@Dragoon don’t think that we never get frustrated or lack confidence either!  Cash bucking was getting to me because he is such a powerful horse and because I didn’t have him broke enough. Now it doesn’t bother me so much, and he is getting over it too. If he’s just quit falling! Lol

Actually, I didn’t at all think he was wrong for bucking, he just doesn’t know what he doesn’t know and gets frustrated. Much like Hero gets is still learning the ropes. He never meant any harm. It still got to me, but it didn’t make me think less of him.

Bones bucking is more irritating to me. I say that only because he does know better, but he has an actual problem. No amount of training will fix what ails him. I guess there are many who do consider him broken, but I assume God made him that way for a reason. Much like a person with a disability, it doesn’t mean he lacks value. I need to learn to do better by him. I cannot continue to put him into situations where I know he will fail. It is hard because we are down numbers until Zeus is ready to work. 

Bones has a place where he shines and can put a lot of work in. He is great at the ranch and pushing cows, and he loves arena work at home. He is a good teacher for the girls and perfectly safe and actually extremely handy in those environments. Yet, even tonight, it is storming and we looked out the window and he was self-mutilating like crazy. Pete wasn’t scolding him for whatever reason, and we had to go outside and call to him for him to come out of that headspace. It was a bit sad. 

I assume your mare is much more like Hero and Cash in that she just needs to learn things still. Don’t get discouraged at all! I know you will get there. You have accomplished so much in your five years! I am so impressed.


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## gottatrot

I agree with @Knave.  @Dragoon, it's great you're seeing some positive things. There is always a balance between being challenged and being unsafe or stupid. There's also a balance between not giving up on a wonderful animal and being too stubborn or proud to realize when it might be in the animal's best interest to be in a different situation. 
If any of you ever figure out how to know those things for sure, let me know!

Paulie possum was waiting for me at the gate tonight, tapping his watch. He already knows his feeding times. He is putting some weight down on his leg, but bends the foot under. After he took the last splint off, I was worried he might be causing more damage pulling on them so I'm seeing how he does without for awhile. 

Tuesday there was high wind and high surf on the beach. We took Hero and Nala out in the evening, hoping things might die down. There were several rescues of people trapped by the waves on rocks and such over the past few days, along the coast.
We love the coast guard around here.









We could barely get the horses to go south, with the wind behind us. They were creeping compared to their normal speed. When we turned into the wind, Nala's rider lost her and they galloped away. 

Hero was upset, I encouraged him forward but he got stuck and bucked some, and I lost a stirrup, saw the ground looming, but he's large so I managed to rebalance and get my stirrup back. Since I know his movements well now, I didn't get off but rode through. Soon he calmed, and Nala turned back. 

We tried doing some circling and other things but both horses were just out of sorts with the wind. Hero simply would not pick up a canter, but only bucked. We did not ride long or far, and went home to try another day.
After the ride, Nala appeared unperturbed.








Of course then the wind died down. My sister and I went for a run, then checked out the sunset.









Today was also supposed to be windy and rainy. Nala's rider trailered us over to a friend's boarding stable that has an indoor and outdoor arena. 

There was a lot going on at the barn. Chickens, dogs barking, new horses (one a precocious mini), busy road nearby. 
Hero and Nala are the kind of kids who are bad at home but too overwhelmed to be naughty in a new place. That was never the case with my Arabs - the TBs will stand and look around wide-eyed and smell everything and think. The Arabs would stare and snort and their hooves would be tap-dancing all over the place. Good luck getting on.

As I've learned in the past, if you master the great outdoors an arena is far less challenging. A spook that flies 15 feet on the beach makes a 3 foot dart to the side in an arena feel like nothing. Flat footing with unchanging traction makes a horse's gait feel so much smoother. Hero was a little tense in the enclosed space. The only time I'd seen him in an arena was when we went to look at him when Nala's rider wanted to get him for her boyfriend.

Hero had difficulty with wanting to go forward, so it was hard to get him to pick up a canter sometimes. That's because he was insecure about the open doors on both ends of the arena, and all the barn ruckus. However, I was able to notice the vast improvement in his movement and strength, because he was able to go along with nice rhythm, impulsion, making lovely turns and circles. Every canter was picked up easily on the good footing with no bucking. He was able to stay in a nice canter for a time as well, until his mind would get insecure about something.

I truly believe that in order to get balance and straight lines through tighter circles in smaller spaces, the easiest way is to take the horse out to learn balance over tougher terrain and footing first. That's my take after going about it the opposite way in the past, trying to teach the horse in the arena first. It's far easier to teach them to deal with the more intricate things when they already have the strength and balance they need to do it. Taking a green horse to careen around a small arena, trying to not hit the walls and keep him from bulging out on the turns is the more difficult path.


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## SueC

... that sunset!!!

I hate riding in strong wind, and will hide indoors on such occasions. :hide:

I can see some good arguments for teaching _riders_ in an arena at their bare beginnings - for instance, it makes it easier to collect the horses when they fall off, and there's guaranteed quick ambulance access, and the instructor can be horseless and just focusing on the rider(s), and if the rider is hopeless then you can adjust the exercises a bit, rather than having a horse on a trail dealing with a dead weight who's holding onto the reins when unbalanced and bouncing all over the place etc. :Angel:

But, I think for green horses, trails need to be in the mix pretty quickly - and both solo and in company. I prefer to do solo trails first on new horses - and to hand-walk them on those trails as preparation - so that they don't worry about being away from a group, as they're more likely to do if you introduce them to trails with other horses for company first. It's not so easy coming back from that to go out solo - easier if you do solo as your trail foundation, before adding company, at least with the sorts of horses I've worked with. What do you think? What have you found?


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## Knave

Yes, @SueC, Bones loves chasing chickens. The first day I got him he sat down and worked a chicken in his corral, after being petrified of stepping out of the trailer into a world that included chickens. I was smitten when I saw him work the chicken.

Gotta, that sounds like a nice day! I am learning to really appreciate horses who handle new environments so well. I am glad Hero and Nala do. I think Cash eventually will, because although he gets hot now it only lasts for a bit and he settles.

I don’t know about the arena vs trail thing. We usually put a couple rides in the round corral and then go outside, but arenas are used a lot too for our young horses. Zeus is the exception, because he has done a lot of things backwards. He has wonderful balance though. Cash has no balance on flat ground, but is just fine if there is something to make him question the ground. If it is sagebrush or slick or steep his balance is good. It is an odd deal.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...I hate riding in strong wind, and will hide indoors on such occasions. :hide:
> 
> I can see some good arguments for teaching _riders_ in an arena at their bare beginnings...


We've had a string of days with wind gusts up to 40 mph. Calmer today. I'm going to put Bandit back into hoof boots, but I'll ride him in our arena because he doesn't always lift his feet high enough to clear the boot and don't want to take a chance we'll end up cantering over rocks on a trail and have him take a fall. Particularly when my wife is out of town and won't notice I haven't returned...

He has more sole and I hoped it would be enough, but he still acts tender on the trails so maybe he just has a softer sole. And needs boots.

I've posted this before. I don't have it in my notes, but I think this is my son's 4th or 5th time on a horse. And two of those rides would have been 3 years earlier, so effectively his 2nd or 3rd time riding. To me, this is the ideal way to introduce riding. Cowboy is far too sane a horse to just explode, and no horse wants to run in an area like this. But just riding a horse at a walk, where the horse is constantly adjusting his balance, teaches a rider balance in a way doing circles around a level arena does not. You learn to trust your horse, to let him move as he needs to, and feel him struggle when you don't move with him.

My advice to my son, in case something did go wrong, was to stick his feet out like on a Harley, hold the horn with one hand and with the other give his horse plenty of slack. Apart from that, just try to balance.

I also liked it at the 1:45 mark when Bandit pauses to check out the wash before entering it. THAT is how a mustang thinks! :Angel:

Also...Bandit holds his head at a steeper angle. Not because of my reins, but because the cactus makes it smart to keep a close watch on the ground right in front of you!


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I prefer to do solo trails first on new horses - and to hand-walk them on those trails as preparation - so that they don't worry about being away from a group, as they're more likely to do if you introduce them to trails with other horses for company first. It's not so easy coming back from that to go out solo - easier if you do solo as your trail foundation, before adding company, at least with the sorts of horses I've worked with. What do you think? What have you found?


Hmm...well, I've found that walking the horse on the trail alone is good preparation, but if I have the chance to pony the horse that is helpful too. 

Whether taking the horse out solo makes it easier for them to go out solo later might depend on the horse. 
Amore started out solo most of the time because I didn't have anyone to go out with. She was _always_ hard to ride out alone, but once I was able to take her out with other horses everything was easier, because she did better in an environment she'd already been through in a calm state, which she could achieve best with another horse along.

When Halla was green it was difficult with other horses, because she was competitive. It was also difficult in a new place alone, because she was spooky and jumpy. But even though I started her by taking her out only with other horses, she was always good at going out alone, once she'd been in the environment several times. She had enough motivation to go forward on her own, without incentive or other horses. And once she knew a place, she would be pretty brave about it too.

Hero so far has different challenges out alone or with others. Such as when he's with Nala, he often spooks if she does or gets upset if she gets too far away. Alone he can be more settled, and can go out well. But he can be reluctant too sometimes, without the motivation of another horse heading out in front. And if he does get scared, he sometimes gets more frightened since there is no other horse there. 

In general, I prefer to take a green horse out with other experienced horses at first. It's helpful to have another horse as backup to show "this is how we go," "this is how we stop," and "it's really not that scary out here." If I haven't spent time drilling stop and go for many sessions in an arena, I really don't know if a horse will slow or stop out in a scary place alone. So having that other horse as backup is really nice. 

I do think it is easier to teach a beginner rider the very basics in an enclosed area, but if you have the right horse, getting out on the trails early is very helpful for learning balance, as @bsms said.
@Knave, it also probably depends on what you're teaching the horse, since some tools you need for working probably can't be taught as well outside. 
I'm thinking of trying to motivate a horse to move forward and out, and to balance, remembering how difficult that has been with green horses in an enclosed space. Getting an unbalanced or unfit horse to pick up a canter and hold it around a small circle can be very difficult, and it can seem a lot less positive to the horse when you're trying to give them a reward but it is hard for them and turns into a drill. Versus out in the open with other horses, when you want to do the first canter and the other horses pick it up in front of you, and then your horse just naturally follows. I find this easier to teach outside.

Also I was remembering working with Amore in the arena, and trying to keep her moving forward through small circles or serpentines, versus trying for the first time on Hero after he's already done much harder things outside. If he can snake down a narrow trail avoiding trees, it's super easy for him to do round circles or serpentines in the arena. I feel it's easier to get better at the basics of balance, steering and the "throughness" of moving from the hindquarters forward through the nose when the horse has the challenge and motivation of outdoor terrain.


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## Knave

I like the combination Gotta. I have the advantage here, because a lot of things are easier taught working a cow. Lol. If a horse has any natural cow at all, he will be drawn to the idea of work. My grandpa said you can teach a horse anything if he is cowy, and he had no tolerance for a horse who wasn’t.

So, taking Cash straight to work made a lot of things simple to teach. If you remember I think I had a week. Bones too, as I had him outside working on his second ride home, probably around his seventh ride ever. It sure makes those first rides intimidating, but it has been what had to happen for both of those horses.

I think it is easier to teach a horse to lope out and cover country outside. This is what Zeus has lacked, and I can feel his inability to just move out. I don’t know if he is scared of his balance or he thinks he is not supposed to. Hopefully this summer he will get back on track.
@SueC, I agree it is better to ride alone in the beginning. I think it makes horses less likely to depend on another horse. However, I think lonely is something some horses just are. Bones is terrible bad in the mountains, although I have ridden him hundreds of miles alone. He is actually dangerously lonely when he is uncomfortable. There is a ranch horse who is lonely too. He’s done it all, and he isn’t as terrible as Bones because he maintains a thought process, but he still is very lonely and not a joy to ride alone. He is a super cool horse too, talented and athletic and hard working. He’s won a lot in a show pen and you can do anything on him.

One of the ranch horses where we used to work was also bad for lonely. He was a good horse too. So, I almost don’t know if it is as helpful as we like to believe...


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## gottatrot

There seems to be a horse forum get together for dogs in heaven right now. Must be a great big party. Too bad we're all missing it.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> There seems to be a horse forum get together for dogs in heaven right now. Must be a great big party. Too bad we're all missing it.



Oh geez, more tears flowing. I love this thought though.


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## gottatrot

Sad tonight because Paulie the Opossum has joined the get together in animal heaven. One of his sores got infected and I think it went systemic, it was difficult since I had to get antibiotics for fish without a prescription, so it probably went too long without treatment. I wish I could have had him in an animal ICU. At least he didn't seem to suffer, and we gave him a chance. There was a vet that was helping me with advice on FB, so that was kind of her.


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## egrogan

So sorry your friend is gone @gottatrot :sad:


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## DanteDressageNerd

Im sorry for your loss :-(

But I wanted to say your space for riding out looks amazing! Must be a great space to ride into. It looks amazing!


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## gottatrot

DanteDressageNerd said:


> But I wanted to say your space for riding out looks amazing! Must be a great space to ride into. It looks amazing!


Thank you! I wish you could bring Wonder over for a ride sometime. :smile:

It was surprising how attached we were to that opossum after a couple of weeks. I'll warn anyone who might spend some time around one that their bashful and gentle natures are very endearing. Pretty much any animal will get defensive if you work on their injuries, but Paulie would just duck his head like "Try not to hurt me too much, OK?" He'd also be waiting by the gate of the dog run at night for his dinner, and then when I brought it in he'd turn his head like he was too shy to look at me. But then would dive right into the food dish when I put it down. :smile: He was very cute.
@SueC said on her journal that it might not be the worst death to be killed by another animal's teeth, and that is probably true. Still, I'm glad the opossum was able to be in a sheltered cave on a soft blanket, peaceful with food in his belly when he passed. 

Hoping to get out for a ride tomorrow!


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## SueC

Oh, that's so sad about Paulie. :-( But at least he was sheltered, and warm, and hadn't had to go hungry. You made a difference to the little creature, even if he didn't recover.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Youre welcome!! I wish we could take a trip. Id be comfortable riding out with enough free space to let Wonder gallop. It looks amazing to have so much space and freedom!

Hope you got to enjoy a good ride!

And maybe so being taken by an animals teeth isnt the worst death, hopefully it was quick and done with. Very sorry for your loss :-(


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ... @SueC said on her journal that it might not be the worst death to be killed by another animal's teeth, and that is probably true...




















Sign me up for "*Died in bed at 93 from too much sex*", please!​


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## gottatrot

^^^^^^Ha ha!

Just got back from a ride on the beach with Hero and Nala. Yesterday was sunny, today was overcast and cooler; better for riding since there were less people out - it rained a bit this morning.

There was not a lot of hard sand, and Hero did a lot of bucking today. I really don't feel his stifles slip anymore, or his back legs drop out or feel him struggle down hills. So I've come to the conclusion that he just likes bucking.

In the past I believed that horses did not like bucking over and over, except for maybe throwing in one when exuberant or upset once in awhile. But it takes so much energy, that what I experienced was that horses stopped doing it as a frequent behavior if you fixed their saddle, or back pain, or anxiety, or etc. But not every horse always wants to do what is easiest, and sometimes they have reasons to do things that are more work. 

I suppose I should have understood this sooner, since there are many horses that you can't use work as a reprimand, which is a common practice used by some trainers. Some horses enjoy working, and running in circles around the horse trailer won't encourage them to give up and get in. Hero often likes to stop and think, and is not a constant mover like some. Yet like many Arabs and TBs, if his mind gets active he will tap into endless energy. In that state, when he feels very energetic, he likes to buck.

On the way down the beach, we started in deep sand and I ended up just trotting Hero since he kept bucking at the canter. The beach widened out, the sand got more firm, and we had a good stretch of nice cantering. Then we trotted for awhile, went in the waves, and the horses seemed to be working pretty hard so we turned around after several miles.

That was when I tried to be nice and put Hero on the hard sand, while Nala went up in the deeper stuff. But he kept bucking until finally I decided if he had that much energy, he might as well get a workout, so I put him up in the deep sand too. He bucked for awhile, until he got sweated enough and then it was too much work finally and he settled down and cantered and trotted for me. 

I'm developing the correct equitation for bucking. It is somewhat similar to jumping, but with some differences. Just like with jumping, you can either be in two point, or you can sit and then rise up into two point when the back rises, and stay there when it drops out from under you. That can be helpful if you're trying to push through into a canter.

It sounds funny but I'm learning to use a gentle hand to ask him to keep his head up if he wants to put it down too much. Similar to this rider. Judging by her equitation, this horse enjoys bucking a lot also. It is important to keep the leg forward and upper body back in this portion of the buck. :smile:









This rider's hands are way too high. Much less ideal.









When the horse does put the neck down, your hands should be down on the horse's neck or pommel of the saddle. Bucking is a little different from jumping because the stirrups can end up trying to orient in different positions as the rider ends up high above the saddle. I've begun finding it helpful to do as this rider does, and curl the toe around the stirrup at the height of the back elevation, which helps it remain oriented around the foot when the back end comes down. It should be done without pivoting around the knee - the weight still goes down inside back of the leg.









This is what I've learned so far about practical bucking equitation.


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## bsms

This is a video of Cowboy trying to throw me in Dec 2017. It was our first ride in the arena in 4+ years and he obviously HATES the arena. He didn't start by lowering his head, the way Bandit does. And it wasn't a _"Can you hear me NOW?"_ buck like Bandit sometimes does. It was his best attempt at throwing me.

Because he is small and has a short back, I can't really put my legs where I want them to be. He accelerates and I think he wants to race around, so I'm thinking 'light on his back'. And then he converts FORWARD speed to create UPWARD energy. I was shocked and ****ed at the same time. After a CTJ moment, I sink my heels into him to let him know the ride is NOT ending.






We then spent the next 20 minutes riding around in the arena. I switched to one hand on the reins and one on the horn. The hand on the horn pushes against the back of the horn to prevent the shoulders from being thrown forward. Eventually got him somewhat calmed down. 

But it was 10 days before he would stand still when I approached him in the corral. The safest and sanest horse I have for a trail ride, but he panics when asked to ride in an arena. I haven't since. If it bothers him so much that he remains afraid for 10 days, I just do not need to be doing it to him. 

He's a good trail horse. Now (probably) 22 years old. With both my DIL & daughter in California, he may not be ridden again. Had at least 6 previous owners and did a few years as a lesson horse. Even now, his trust of humans is skin deep. If we could, we'd send him someplace to live his life in a pasture with minimal time around humans. And yet, take him out on the trail with other horses, and as in the video I posted here on 25 May, he's a good horse to learn riding on.

PS: I delete pictures and videos regularly. This video isn't one of my happy times, so I'll plan on deleting it in a few days. I view him as a very good horse with some very bad memories.


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## SueC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *gottatrot* View Post 
_... @*SueC* said on her journal that it might not be the worst death to be killed by another animal's teeth, and that is probably true..._




bsms said:


> Sign me up for "*Died in bed at 93 from too much sex*", please!​


Well, that seems reasonable to us here! inkunicorn::blueunicorn:

By the way, I didn't actually say that!  I was comparing the death of farm animals to that of wild animals, and I feel that a bullet is more humane, and that possibly even the trip to an abattoir is more humane, but I think the jury might be out on that one still...


PS: I can't understand why any of you with bucking horses aren't wearing parachutes!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> This video isn't one of my happy times...


I don't know...it looks like you rode that pretty well! That was a pretty good stiff-legged buck.


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## SueC

_Psssst!_ I think a lot of the regulars here have really high standards for themselves, and it comes out in self-appraisals!


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## gottatrot

It was rainy today, windy, and also there was going to be a high tide in the late afternoon. So we trailered Nala and Hero over to the state park trails and did about a 5 mile ride. Got a break in the rain, and the trails were protected from the wind. We even found some wide areas where we could canter for awhile. 
They seemed to enjoy it out there!
























I didn't bring a real camera because of rain worries, but got a little video on my phone.




Music is Cloudy Skies by Ugly Kid Joe


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## bsms

My horses would say, "_We're stopping. Period! You can walk home. Get back with me in a week, when I've done my duty and made this grass disappear!_" After all, Bandit grew up in a place that looks like this:








And he lives in a place that looks like this:








There isn't a whip big enough or spurs mean enough to make him move from a place like where you were riding!


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## Dragoon

Here near the Great Lakes, you have to mow the lawn every other day with all the rain this spring! 
And the horses have more grass than they can possibly eat...it's really a problem right now. Its growing up past their bellies and ticks are a concern...gonna have to mow the pastures too!
I don't like grass anymore!


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## gottatrot

The grass in that photo is sort of wide and flat. It grows in marshy areas and I don't think it tastes too good. The horses will taste it but don't want to keep eating it. Nala's rider and I were saying how both Nala and Hero were very wary about it the first time we went through it. It is very thick and overgrows the trail in places so they can't see where they are stepping. It also kind of squishes when they step on it, and makes a swishing sound. So horses naturally don't trust it at first, wondering what is hiding down there. 

Today I was thinking about some of the interesting differences in horse personalities. 

Amore will follow where any other horse goes. If she sees them make it safely across water or strange footing, she'll go ahead and try.

Halla would see the obstacle and if the other horse was going to try, she'd barge ahead to prove that she was the bravest, and she would go first.

Hero is like, "I don't care if you made it across, that doesn't mean I will!" So he doesn't care at all if another horse leads. He has to make the decision for himself.


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## bsms

Bandit used to look at Trooper and Cowboy going past something and say:

"_Sooooo...You've gone over to the enemy, huh? You worked out a deal with that trash can - he spares you, then gets me! Well, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck! No sirree! *Man the battle stations, Back Monkey!* Our only hope is to show we are ready and willing to fight...._"

Four years later, Trooper and Cowboy take their cues from Bandit. I guess they figure if Bandit thinks it is safe, it must be REALLY safe!

My view of a peaceful neighborhood:








Bandit's view of the same neighborhood:










https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...l-escaping-clutches-two-hungry-lionesses.html​


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## SueC

:rofl:

And _back monkey_ - now that's a new variation on the theme! :rofl:

Great photos, @gottatrot! Cool blue helmet too. I've not ridden in nearly a week owing firstly to that Murphy's law scenario from my journal the other day, and since then, either gale-force winds, or driving rain, or both simultaneously... :hide: On the up side, the wood fire is nice in here, and I got some indoors work done.

But am suffering from trail deficiency...


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## gottatrot

I think I may have mentioned that Nala's rider has purchased some acreage in the country nearby and will be building a barn soon.
Of course something happened to her that often does, she is my second friend this month to have a property "not quite ready" for horses but found a horse first. 
Nala will need a buddy on the farm, so of course one showed up. :smile:
I haven't met Nickel yet, but he looks cute. Big OTTB, early teens. I expect we'll have to get him out with Nala soon. Hero too.
He is at the farm across the road from ours since our barn owner didn't have room.


















I'm going to have to get busy riding. The owner of the arena we trailed to a couple weeks ago wants me to come ride her Arab also. She's very well trained, supposedly, but just a "bit much" for her so she wants to see someone ride her.


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## gottatrot

Something else I forgot to mention in the last post. I have often talked about not wanting to use bits with sharp mouthpieces, not because of the rider's hands, but something I feel is a lot less controllable, which is accidents. 
It made a big impression on me years ago having a vet tell me about how many tongues he had sewn up from horses that had bits with sharp mouthpieces. Basically, I don't care if something that looks like a medieval torture device has the most subtle nuances possible and the communication will just be incredible. 
What has always been an issue for me is what will happen if the horse gets the reins stuck on something, trips very hard or steps on the reins? This was illustrated for me yesterday, when I was walking Hero. Three different actions happened in rapid succession, he moved away from a gate I was opening, tripped slightly over a root, and his head dropped. This pulled the rein out of my hand which he immediately stepped on just as he was yanking his head back up. He got himself in the mouth pretty hard. So the mouthpiece of his bit is like this:








It's very smooth and not even jointed. Yet he whacked his lower canine tooth with it and it was bleeding a little, and later some bruising appeared on the gum. All of that from a very smooth bit. My philosophy is that horses can hurt themselves with bits that don't have sharp edges, so I feel putting sharp objects in horses' mouths is just too risky, even if you have the most perfectly independent seat, super gentle hands, and/or ride on a loose rein.


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## SueC

Yes, that's a good philosophy. I prefer to not even have bits in the mouth of horses which have beginner riders, until they get an independent seat.

You've probably seen my little rope arrangement before that stops reins from being thrown over a horse's head in the event of a fall, and a horse then stepping in the reins. I just shoulder-lead horses anyway, so it's no issue when I'm on the ground leading etc.



Have fun riding some extra horses and getting yet more diverse experience!  :charge:


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## DanteDressageNerd

I didn't realize you were an Oregonian too. I grew up there for 17yrs and was born in Portland. Grew up riding bareback in a halter and went to Florence and rode on the beaches. Riding into the mountains was great for conditioning event horses. It's such a beautiful area. I wish I could take Wonder because I think we could MAYBE move past the bolting and crashing issues if we had enough space and no pot holes to worry about.

I think I like Hero already, I will not do it unless it is on my terms and Im self assured. He sounds like an independent thinker and as annoying as that is at times. I think as riders/trainers we have to admire that spirit :lol: I like evaluating horse personalities too. I think why I like a unique personality that doesnt just say yes mam but asks questions and challenges. That horse will always be a greater challenge and maybe some day you're really frustrated and just tired of discussions but then that same horse will show up and give you 10x more than any other horse and for whatever reason is loyal in a way other horses may not be. There is a special bond that forms when you have a horse that just doesnt like everybody or who asks questions and thinks for themselves. It's not always an admired trait but I think they provide the best educations and make riders more dynamic and innovative.

Hero and Nala look like they're having a really good time.

I also had read on your theory about bucking and equitation. I hadnt actually thought about it. I always thought of it as survival instinct and you put your feet out in front of you a bit. Sorta like when you're a jumper and you ride a horse with a rough riding jumping, you kick your feet out in front of you on landing, so when you land you're in balance and not over the neck, so you can regroup on landing. It makes sense!


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## SueC

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think I like Hero already, I will not do it unless it is on my terms and Im self assured. He sounds like an independent thinker and as annoying as that is at times. I think as riders/trainers we have to admire that spirit :lol: I like evaluating horse personalities too. I think why I like a unique personality that doesnt just say yes mam but asks questions and challenges. That horse will always be a greater challenge and maybe some day you're really frustrated and just tired of discussions but then that same horse will show up and give you 10x more than any other horse and for whatever reason is loyal in a way other horses may not be. There is a special bond that forms when you have a horse that just doesnt like everybody or who asks questions and thinks for themselves. It's not always an admired trait but I think they provide the best educations and make riders more dynamic and innovative.


Now substitute "person" / "friend" / "marriage partner" / "student" for "horse" - and the same thing is true!


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## gottatrot

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I didn't realize you were an Oregonian too. I grew up there for 17yrs and was born in Portland. Grew up riding bareback in a halter and went to Florence and rode on the beaches. Riding into the mountains was great for conditioning event horses. It's such a beautiful area.


Yes, I wonder what would happen if you pointed Wonder straight up one of those mountains. We would take some of the very hot horses out on the logging roads that went straight up for several miles, and at some point even the most enthusiastic would run out of steam. The beach is not quite as tiring.

That is so neat you are from Oregon. What did you think of Florence? We are thinking about moving down there since it is not as populated as the north.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I really enjoyed Florence, it's been probably 10yrs or more since I've been so maybe it has changed but it's a beautiful area and I felt people were more laid back than in the North. The riding areas were AMAZING! I really miss that about Oregon. Was amazing for conditioning event horses. Vernonia is really nice for riding as well.

And yes absolutely. Some of those logging roads are perfect, Denmark is very flat so there are not many hills. But in Oregon up a mountain I think he would wear out. Hills wear him out but he'd probably go for a while. He just loves to go and work, he's very brave. Loves water, apparently he knows how to swim because he did it for rehab.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I wonder what would happen if you pointed Wonder straight up one of those mountains...


Back when I had very spooky, high-energy Mia, my rancher friend visited. After some time around Mia, he pointed to a peak maybe 15 miles away and about 2,500' higher than my home and told me, "_Ride her to the top and back every day for a week. A week from now, you'll have a great horse!_"

His favorite ranch horse was Trooper's sire. In part because the horse would cheerfully go 50-60 miles a day, day after day. On a typical day, he said, the first 10 miles were like riding a time bomb. The next 10 were not so bad. The last 30 were on one of the finest stallions a man could ever toss a leg over!

I considered making the comment on the dressage thread about hot horses, but then, you probably wouldn't win a dressage competition on a horse saving energy for the final 30-40 miles it is expecting. Kind of like a running coach once told a much more talented friend of mine: "_If you don't fall over and die just as you cross the finish line, you haven't given your all!_" You don't want a dressage horse to move like an endurance horse with 30 more miles to the finish line.

I suspect a lot of "hot horses" would cool considerably if they regularly worked their way up side canyons in places like this:








Then again, Trooper's sire did, and I gather the first 10 miles on him were always pretty challenging! But in terms of philosophy, you won't find people riding horses in places like this discussing "body control", or "rein effects" or "frame". Just as a human neighborhood heats up Bandit considerably, the artificial demands of human-created horse sports can raise a horse's temperature. IMHO. "Sports" tend to bring out the worst in me. I suspect they can do the same to some horses.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I suspect a lot of "hot horses" would cool considerably if they regularly worked their way up side canyons.
> 
> Then again, Trooper's sire did, and I gather the first 10 miles on him were always pretty challenging!
> 
> But in terms of philosophy, you won't find people riding horses in places like this discussing "body control", or "rein effects" or "frame".


 I think whether a horse would cool or not depends on the reason behind the hot.. I think many horses are over fed and under exercised, so getting out and moving would be wonderful for them and they would soon settle. Other horses - like Trooper's sire - only get fitter while keeping their hot, so that strategy doesn't work as well. The same may be true of Hero's bucking.. which sure isn't something gotta wants to think about I suspect!! :gallop:

I think people riding out and/or using horses for work are concerned about things like body control and frame, they just have different expectations. In general, I want my trail horse to control his own body and not need me to tell him where to place every foot every moment. However, there are times where I DO want and expect to be able to precisely tell my horse what I need and he sure better be educated (and cooperative) enough to respond, or we both are likely going to be in trouble.. I may not worry about frame in the same way someone in a show ring does, but I do want my horse going down the trail using his body in the most stress-free manner possible, so he can keep on going as long as possible (both that ride and for years, hopefully).


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## DanteDressageNerd

I agree with phantomhorse on hot horses. 

I've ridden a variety of different types of "hot" horse. It really depends on the horse and why they're hot. Mine I sometimes compare to a border collie but I think cat mixed with border collie sorta explain his personality. I dont think being out in the wild would make a difference, I think he'd just get fitter and stronger. He has an intensity and determination you can really feel and he absolutely loves to work. Very confident. He's not as sensitive or anxious like other hot types. He's strong, bold and brave. 

Some are just anxious or nervous, some are over reactive and it's really hard to switch their brain into a rider or handler and they always have those reactive, irrational moments of fear (depending). I've worked with some it was always keeping their ear on you and keeping their focus or they'd just trample you or be out of their mind but if you could distract and keep their focus they were fine. Some people call horses hot that I personally wouldnt consider hot. Sensitive, reactive and forward thinking to me isnt a hot horse because they dont have that determined intensity or inner anxiousness or tension. 

Other horses I've met are hot because they're over fed and underworked, I've met some it's because the owner has too much heat in their personality and transmit too much heat to the horse or the horse was insecure and they didnt have a confident/competent enough rider, so reacted like they were hot but not really. Just needed direction. Some are hot because they're over thinkers and creates anxiety, so that takes a lot of low stress and re-training their reactions.

With the dressage horses, a lot of how they move is how they're ridden as well. If they were trail horses many have a "more efficient" ground covering stride but it depends on how the individual horse moves. Also big difference between a horse aimed for the upper levels vs the low or mid levels. But a lot of how they move is how we ride them. The good riders create the movement with their seat, core, timing of the aids and training. We make the movement over time. A lot of dressage horses dont come out of the womb moving like they do in the show arena. Some do but a lot dont. But I'll also say there is a reason endurance horses move like they do and dressage horses move like they do. A top class dressage horse wont make a top endurance horse and top endurance horse wont make a top dressage horse. Different horses for different purposes.


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## bsms

My problem with "frame" or "using his body well" is with the idea that I know what is best. In rare cases, I do. I've experienced both Mia and Bandit cantering where they were pushing too much with the rear, not lifting and stepping out with the front, and as a result were driving both of us into the dirt. So I hauled back and up, then slowed, then tried again. And it didn't take too long before they made the adjustments needed.

And maybe expert riders can genuinely feel when a horse is off and "frame" it for quick success.

But in the vast majority of cases, I think it is a fool's errand. For example, in this picture, Bandit and I are climbing out of a little wash. 








It is the cleanest spot along there to get out, but it still has both cactus and thorn brush to dodge mid-climb. If the horse can figure out how to do it best, but the rider cannot, then why would a rider know best on smooth, level ground? *If my horse can do calculus, and I can only do addition and subtraction, then which of us should teach the other math?*

I managed to ride and jog both the last two days. Today I was too pooped to do either, but I just finished a fast 3 mile walk in the desert. My left foot still has some issues. Don't show up on X-rays. No bruises. There are days when I feel no pain. And there are times like this last hour, where half-way through it started to feel owwy. Not enough to make me limp, but I've learned to shorten my stride a little and turn my left foot a little more out to compensate.

If I had a Back Monkey who tried using a crop to get me to step "better", I'd come to hate that overbearing Back Monkey! And when I turn while running, my turns are straight lines and angles, like an octagon instead of a circle. And if my Back Monkey insisted I curve my body around his inside leg, supported with an outside rein to make it a CIRCLE instead of a Nasty Octagon...I'd kick the Back Monkey's butt!

When jogging, I'M THE ONE DOING THE WORK. And I wouldn't appreciate Back Monkey using artificial standards to insist I find solutions to his artificial problems. As so often, I return to Littauer:


> But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus. Just as in former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type of circus - unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations...


I've concluded riders are rarely runners, because all runners eventually learn to listen to their bodies (that, or injuries force them to quit), and yet riders so rarely seem to let horses do the same! Running yesterday when it was 95 degrees, I constantly was adjusting based on the hills, the footing, and most of all, the HEAT. The stress on my heart determined my pace. No heart monitor. But it wasn't my first jog! Don't need a monitor. I've got my body. No Back Monkey could do that for me.

What a great rider does is beyond my judgment. For most of us backyard riders, giving our horse varied experience while trying to minimize the harm we do to his athleticism is as good as it gets. When the footing and terrain gets tough, I shut up and trust my horse. If I listen, he'll teach me.


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## Knave

I agree with @PhantomHorse on both ideas. I work on my horses, and there is a lot I let them make decisions on, but I also expect them to be trained well and when I ask for something to do it now and correctly. 

Take sorting cattle for instance. We train a horse how to best move to do that job. Once they understand how to move well, then is when they get to make the decisions (depending on the rider of course lol). Bones can outwork me anytime, he reads cattle better and moves faster, but before he learned correctness he wanted to chase everything. He liked big moves, but they were more of an attack mode than a work mode. The moves he was making to try and kill cattle were not only detrimental to the poor cattle, but they also would see him beat consistently because of his judgement. Now he knows, but he had to learn.

He also falls under that “hot” category at times. He has always been quite fit, and working him harder only ups the ante. On the other hand, Cash only improves with hard work. After all, in his mind it is hard, and he doesn’t want to waste the energy he has. So, I agree with @bsms that it does help most horses to work hard going up the side of a mountain, but there is always an exception to the rule like Bones. He seems to be the exception to most rules.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> My problem with "frame" or "using his body well" is with the idea that I know what is best.
> 
> When jogging, I'M THE ONE DOING THE WORK. And I wouldn't appreciate Back Monkey using artificial standards to insist I find solutions to his artificial problems.


While jogging, you learned that how you held your body while moving made a difference, right? Back when you did basic training, I assume you had to run wearing a pack? Did it take you a little bit to figure out the most effective way to hold your body for the best balance with the pack? Would finding that most effective way have been easier/faster if you had a back monkey giving you suggestions?

These are two distance riders cantering down the trail:



















[Both horses regularly go in the way pictured, so these are not just random good or bad moments in time.]

If I told you one was a hugely successful 100 miler and one hasn't finished a 50 despite multiple attempts, would you be able to guess which horse was which? Why did you make the guess you did?


Some horses naturally have better carriage than others - much like some people have better posture than others. A horse being ridden at all is an artificial problem and I think our job as their riders/partners is to help them find the best way of moving while carting us around atop them.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...Did it take you a little bit to figure out the most effective way to hold your body for the best balance with the pack? Would finding that most effective way have been easier/faster if you had a back monkey giving you suggestions?...


No, I have no problem with figuring out how I can best carry a load. Happily, inert loads are very predictable, which makes it easy to figure out. One of my conclusions, watching Bandit, is that I should try to be stable and predictable above all. If I can create stability and be just a little off his back, that seems to make him eager.

Now...would a very skilled rider be able to do more than that? Maybe. Count Toptani (sp?) told of an experiment he did with jumping. He built a jumping dummy, trying to imitate a rider, and let the horse go jump with it. Once he made the dummy stable, not floppy, the horse jumped better with the dummy than with an experienced rider. He concluded the dummy had better core strength than any human. I noticed a long time ago the cavalry let horses carry a much heavier pack than they did a rider...

Still, there have been times where I could feel my horse was doing something wrong and I needed to hit the reset button. I assume a better rider would have more of those moments. 

But I've read a lot of books and listened to a lot of instructors talk about how they can help a horse move "better", and in almost every case they were wrong. Human coaches coaching runners often blow it too. I've injured myself following the running advice of human coaches, who at least have experience with running as a human! 

Yet humans insist horses need to learn to turn "straight", with their hind legs following the same track as the front legs, curving their torso, curving around the rider's inside leg - and that makes no sense. It makes for a comfortable turn to RIDE, but not for a horse to perform. And horses have limited ability to bend their bodies laterally. From what I've read, they have to play with their footfall in order to create the illusion of bend. Stressing their legs to make the rider feel better. Horses seek what is comfortable to THEM. And since they do the work, that seems reasonable to me.

How did I learn to run over rough ground? Doing it. I don't know why my left foot sticks out further to the side doing it. Maybe my leg is wonky. Oh well. It works for me. How have I learned to carry 80 lb sacks of horse food from the truck to the storeroom? Experience. How did I learn to get them out of the truck? Experience. "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" Those with ears to hear can learn from a sack of feed, as Tom Roberts may have noticed!

How would a great rider teach Bandit to move? I don't know. But I hosed him off in 100 degree heat this afternoon. As he got completely soaked, I'd swear the other two horses looked at each other as if to say, "_You know what is coming?_" Then El Bandito took off, sprinting around the corral, kicking up high behind him, rearing, twisting, sprinting, and insisting the other two horses run with him. Then he stopped, sighed, and rolled in the dirt, standing up again looking like an 850 lb anthill instead of a horse.

But his explosion of movement, dodging, twisting, accelerating, slowing, kicking - he IS an amazing athlete! Who taught him to move like THAT! Certainly not me! And while I add a variable to his problem, as long as I only add one variable to it, he can solve it without me. How did he learn to canter (when he feels like it) on a 20' diameter circle with me when he had trouble before with a 60' diameter circle? All I had to do was trust him, let him lean (which some people think is sinful), and disturb his leaning the least amount I could. When I stopped telling him HOW to turn, and adapted MY riding to HIS movement, he got down to 20' diameters in a single ride.

I'm not trying to tell any sport rider how to ride their horse for their sport. I don't have a clue. I can't tell a great rider not to use rollkur. I don't know what they need to get a great performance out of a great, well-bred horse. Bandit and I are the guttersnipes of the riding world.

But for MOST recreational, backyard riders...give your horse progressive challenges. Let him figure it out. Then move on to tougher ones. Be as predictable as possible (cutting down the variables). Get out of his way as much as possible. Let him experiment. And trust him to do what works for his body.


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## gottatrot

Amore is still trying to look like a cute little pony at 28.










Hero is getting a lot more flow and smoother movement through his body, which is a sign to me that his muscles are getting stronger and working together better. He has his own interpretation of what rhythm means. Why should the legs have to move like a metronome, or go down in any particular order? It is a good question.
If you put the sound on you can hear the lovely sounds he makes, which he does when being ridden also.
I wasn't sure if his mouth would be healed completely yet after banging his tooth, so will wait a couple more days to ride.


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## gottatrot

Interesting points made by all.

Talking about hot horses, I think there are a couple ways I personally use the term, one of which is a more temporary state like "he's hot right now." That can probably happen to any horse. 

Another is talking about how hot a horse is in general, on a scale of 1-10 temperament-wise. Personally, that is something I think about as the lifelong state of the horse, but measured when a horse is at "baseline." 

Baseline might mean different things to different people. But to be fair to the horse, I think of it as when a horse is done growing, is on a roughage-based diet, i.e. not grain, does not have health issues going on such as ulcers or some disease, has ample turnout and exercise, and is being ridden fairly with tack that fits and the horse accepts.

I've seen both scenarios, one where a naturally fairly hot horse was kept in a stall and overweight, and the horse was a slug. Another where a naturally fairly hot horse was kept in a stall and overweight, and was like a keg of dynamite ready to explode. Both horses when brought to baseline became very similar, the slug had merely slipped into a near coma, and the other horse extremely frustrated. Both were naturally hot, but seemed quite different at first.

What I like to believe is that the hottest horses I've been around were at a level 8 or at most 9. I'm certain there must be more extreme energy out there. However, the two I thought of as the most hot I've seen were at the level where the handler had to be aware of them every second. An excellent rider would have to be riding every moment, because something like a slip of the little finger would mean you lost the horse into a full gallop in a second, or if you did not let the energy out when necessary the horse would be standing straight up on the hind legs. That to me is 8 or 9. 

I'd say Halla was around a 7, because she was needing to be always managed or you could lose her. Amore also was about a 7, and very tricky sometimes. In her old age, Amore has diminished to about a 4 or 5. Hero is only about a 6, because he is a pot you can often put a lid on without having him blow up. As with Wonder, it is other things such as his opinions and independence that make him difficult, but not his hotness. 

Maybe you could measure a horse's "hotness" or innate energy by how far they would go at full gallop up the steep mountain before giving up (when fit for it). The grades I am talking about are around 25%, so very steep. Amore or Hero in their most excited state would maybe make it 3/4 of a mile. Halla would have made it a mile. The hottest horses can make it 1 1/4 mile or more before burning themselves out. That is their brain warring against the pain in their bodies, and the hotter the horse is, the longer it takes for the brain to lose. 

We have done this test with groups of horses on a loose rein, with various hotness levels, and it is interesting to see where they drop off. The mountain always wins, in the end.

I agree with @DanteDressageNerd about different kinds of hot. The reactive, explosive horse is hot but if it is only because of the handler or not having enough experience or exercise, that might not be their personality. Still, if you have to deal with that as a constant state, that the horse is ready to react to anything and staying at a constant high level rather than being calm during a ride, that can be a very hot horse.

The horse that is eager to work and energetic but not even reactive can also be very hot, even if they don't spook at anything but just are always asking to go faster and responding with power to every request. 

For me, going up the mountainside is only a tool. It can be a tool to evaluate the horse, and see if they can achieve a state of calm (unfortunately, you have to go back down the mountain too). It can be a tool to teach the horse that there actually is an end to their energy, and how to conserve at times. Sometimes it can be a psychological tool to teach the horse that the rider may ask them to go on after they are tired, which can be a kind of reverse psychology for some horses. Or with some horses, you can go up the mountain in order to burn off enough adrenaline to have a thinking horse for the rest of the ride. 

People say that fit horses are dangerous, but I find that sentiment stupid. Sure, it would be dangerous to put a new rider on a super hot horse, but hopefully if your horse is super fit, you are the one that got him that way. If your horse is fit enough to canter for ten miles, then you certainly should be able to manage him since you're the one cantering him that far. 

Horses don't become unpredictable because of a fitness level. Rather, many miles of riding equal many miles of training, and a very fit rider. We used to say it was a good thing we were the ones who had made our horses so fit, because otherwise we'd never be able to ride them. It does require a high level of fitness to manage a very fit horse, but that is why you do it together.


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## gottatrot

If a horse does not move well, like in the photos shown by @phantomhorse13, I blame the rider. 

Not because the rider is necessarily not riding well, but more and more I believe that a horse does not carry itself well because there are issues, and that is what the rider is responsible to find out.

If we turned the horses loose, they'd manage their bodies just fine, so the problem in the equation is always the rider. That's not to say the rider is responsible to try to make the horse move a certain way. I agree with @bsms, that is something we will get wrong. 

That's not to say we shouldn't try sometimes, but not because the horse won't learn to move right without us, instead it's because we will interfere otherwise. 
If Hero had been allowed to put his head down low and drag along his hind end, eventually if he were loose on the beach he would get more fit and learn to use his hind end better. 

But if I had let him move like that and not pulled his head up to show him how I wanted him to move with the rider, he would have my weight down on his front end making him imbalanced, I would get bucked off a few times due to being off balance, and the whole learning process would have been inhibited. 

Same with when I will have a horse collect up to go around litter on the beach. They could make it around everything perhaps, maybe trip a few times, but be OK. Meanwhile, I would not be staying on when they had to dodge and leap unexpectedly. Like Phantom says, this teaches the horse that we had a good idea about how to use themselves, quicker than they might have learned it. 

Back to the horses in the photos, I don't think the horse is moving poorly and being unsuccessful because the rider is not insisting that the horse moves in a different posture. I would be willing to bet there is an issue with the horse that makes the horse feel the need to move that way. Whether it is the hooves or knees, or the way the horse must balance due to an uneven build, uneven musculoskeletal development, some vitamin or mineral deficiency making the horse compensate for a weaker hind end, who knows. 
Often horses like Arabs will go around inefficiently because they have the energy and the drive to do so. Some other horses with physical issues would be less willing. 

Personally, I think some riders take too much credit for making a horse move a certain way. The best thing we can do is get them to a good place physically, find the best tack possible for them and then find out how to ride where we can stay out of their way. To clarify, this is not referring to teaching things like lateral work or extension. But even then, the aids do not need to get into a horse's way. "Aid" should be a clue. It aids the horse's own smooth movement rather than inhibits or blocks it. 

I see @PhantomHorse riding this way in many photos, and the horses are moving very well. Horses will assume the best posture for their body over time when fit and out of pain, if the rider does not interfere. Horses that don't, have issues. On the forum we've learned about many of these issues with horses that were unbalanced and difficult, and it was not resolvable. Then we learn the horse has Lyme, or a healed broken pelvis, or DSLD, or ulcers, or...etc.


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## knightrider

From DanteDressageNerd


> I agree with phantomhorse on hot horses.
> 
> I've ridden a variety of different types of "hot" horse. It really depends on the horse and why they're hot. Mine I sometimes compare to a border collie but I think cat mixed with border collie sorta explain his personality. I dont think being out in the wild would make a difference, I think he'd just get fitter and stronger. He has an intensity and determination you can really feel and he absolutely loves to work. Very confident. He's not as sensitive or anxious like other hot types. He's strong, bold and brave.
> 
> Some are just anxious or nervous, some are over reactive and it's really hard to switch their brain into a rider or handler and they always have those reactive, irrational moments of fear (depending). I've worked with some it was always keeping their ear on you and keeping their focus or they'd just trample you or be out of their mind but if you could distract and keep their focus they were fine. Some people call horses hot that I personally wouldnt consider hot. Sensitive, reactive and forward thinking to me isnt a hot horse because they dont have that determined intensity or inner anxiousness or tension.
> 
> Other horses I've met are hot because they're over fed and underworked, I've met some it's because the owner has too much heat in their personality and transmit too much heat to the horse or the horse was insecure and they didnt have a confident/competent enough rider, so reacted like they were hot but not really. Just needed direction. Some are hot because they're over thinkers and creates anxiety, so that takes a lot of low stress and re-training their reactions.
> 
> With the dressage horses, a lot of how they move is how they're ridden as well. If they were trail horses many have a "more efficient" ground covering stride but it depends on how the individual horse moves. Also big difference between a horse aimed for the upper levels vs the low or mid levels. But a lot of how they move is how we ride them. The good riders create the movement with their seat, core, timing of the aids and training. We make the movement over time. A lot of dressage horses dont come out of the womb moving like they do in the show arena. Some do but a lot dont. But I'll also say there is a reason endurance horses move like they do and dressage horses move like they do. A top class dressage horse wont make a top endurance horse and top endurance horse wont make a top dressage horse. Different horses for different purposes.


Boy, I just love everything you said and the way you said it. You are so accurate! Thanks for posting that! I love hot horses and love riding them. Chorro was listed as temperament 7 when I bought him as a yearling. I must have thought to myself a thousand times, "What were you THINKING, buying this temperament 7 horse and trying to train him at your age!" I've actually only seen one horse listed as temperament 8 and never seen a sale ad of temperament 9 or 10.

Anyway, @DanteDressageNerd, as a connoisseur of hot horses, I think you are so right about the many different kinds and styles of hot.
@gottatrot, I wish we had that tardis:tardis: I want to take all 4 of my horses up that mountain with you and see how far they go. That would be so great. What a great concept.

This is a really fine thread and I am lucky to be able to read it and learn so many things. Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful posts!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Thank you knightrider, Im glad you enjoy your hot horses too. They're a blessing. I think they have a lot of heart and try. Wish we all had that tardis to right out into the mountains! Would be an amazing adventure!

I think it depends on what is expected from the horse. 

A rider being in balance with the horse is very important for efficiency. I also think how we ride depends on the horse we're on.

I can also say from experience, having a horse carry a certain posture can help with soundness and longevity. I used to do quite a bit of rehab for horses recovering from injuries or horses who've had prior injuries. 

I'm a Marine Corps veteran, I have some injuries that will never heal completely from over exertion and stubborn determination. I've been a runner and done some intense hikes and mud runs. I used to LOVE obstacles courses because I was pretty reckless and wasnt afraid. Climb ropes pretty quickly. Just bold, firey and a bit rebel :lol: I can say from working out in a gym, having good use of body or form makes a HUGE difference in performance and preventing injury. I HATE watching people squat with bad form because they end up throwing their back out or destroying their knees. I used to do split leg squats with 90lbs and lunges with 120lbs. I was a strong girl. I could toss the 180lb men like they were rag dolls onto my shoulders and carry them. How you pick people up and carry them matters, I need to carry the boys square on the shoulders or it puts too much pressure on one side of my body or the other. Like carrying a back pack over one shoulder and not both. I weighed about 143lbs 5'7. Im still considered very strong but not like I was. I have to do a lot of stability and yoga type exercises to stay "sound" else I have a lot of knee and back pain. My knees get unstable and it hurts to walk. I have the degenerative disk in my lower back I have to keep a strong core and back to help keep it stable. Else I have a lot of pain.

I think of dressage-type work, doesnt have to be dressage but posture and "form" based riding is about asking the horse to step in balance and use it's whole body to compensate for the weight of a rider by moving in balance and asking the horse to carry over the back in an arena. Us being on their back changes the balance. Us being balanced over their back makes their life easier. There is a benefit to it to about mid level. It's stability and posture based riding and I see a difference in the posture and soundness of horse's worked like that. When I did rehab, I had a horse who had pretty advanced EPM before being treated. He couldn't control his hind end a whole lot before we started and within a year he had made a total recovery and you would never know he had, had such advanced EPM. He was much more in control of his hind end, I think because he had to make nerve connections and be aware of his body in a way he wouldnt without dressage work. And he never went past 2nd level but I think the dressage work helped him a lot. However I'll also say mid-high level dressage is very hard on the horse and takes a special horse to be able to do it. Now when I hack out, I do not ride a horse like a dressage horse or "place it's feet." I might some but not like in an arena. When I hack I let the horse do it's thing. I dont usually go out on a totally slack rein but I dont really have a "contact" either. More like a connection or feel in case something happens but without asking for "collection" or a "frame."

I had a job working for a natural horsemanship and driving trainer and my job was to hack out the horses up and down the road before we hitched them to a cart because I was always good about gaining confidence from the horse and making them feel safe even when a dog jumps out barking at them or a deer comes around.






But I'll say for dressage it's a totally different way of riding and has a very different expectation. I think it helps with discipline, communication and the rider's ability to organize and communicate with a horse. I think a lot of dressage riders tend to put horse's in boxes and are not very flexible or adjustable to what horse they are sat on, where as I think jumpers are very good at riding by the seat of their pants and organizing based on what is under them. They're more instinctual vs dressage is more discipline and structure. I get why some people arent into it and I dont think every horse needs to be a dressage horse. But I think it has a purpose and there are horses happier because they like the mental work of dressage.


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## gottatrot

I agree with @DanteDressageNerd about using good body mechanics. They have helped me do a ton of lifting over the years, as a nurse and horse person, without injury. It just amazes me sometimes when I see people getting ready to lift and they'll be all stretched with the load far away from their body, and standing twisted even. 

For horses it seems what causes them to use poor body mechanics most often are badly fitting or uncomfortable tack, poor hooves leading to bad leg angles, and other body issues.

Today I met Nickel, Nala's rider's new horse. He's at least 16.3, probably 17 hands. He looks a lot nicer in person and is a good mover. The story is that our friend saw him posted on an endurance site, and told Nala's rider. He was up in Seattle, so they just went to "look." His owner was trying to find him a new career. He was off the track at 3, then used as an eventer through the novice level. That has jumps about this high:









His rider wanted to go farther but he got too excited going over larger jumps, and she ended up getting a horse that is more manageable at the higher levels. The past several years he has been doing dressage work and beginning trails. 

We rode Nickel in the indoor arena at the barn across the street from mine, where he is living. He has been ridden in the arena several times in the past week. He went fine, with very nice transitions, easily doing walk/canter, canter/walk, etc. His trot is very big and bouncy. I tried to sit it for fun, but would have needed my stirrups a little longer to stay down. Nice big canter.

Nala's rider and I led Nickel across the street to get one of our horses. This was to be Nickel's first time to see the ocean or go to a beach. We decided Nala would be better, since Hero might decide not to go forward with a new horse. I got on Nickel, and we went down.

He felt like a "real" gelding. When we saw elk in the field, he worried a little, and I gave him the confident seat which he totally went with and kept on going. Ha ha. Hero is never fooled by such things. I told Nala's rider that Hero is not a gelding, he is a mare. 

So far Nickel also seems to have one spook, which is to put both front hooves down and drop a couple inches. He was very unspooky in the new situations we brought him into. He was also willing to walk right out in front of Nala, all the way until we caught sight of the ocean. Then he wanted to walk next to her. His nostrils were fluttering a lot. 

When we got to the top of the dune where we were looking down at the whole beach and the ocean, I could feel Nickel's heart pounding very hard and he looked at everything with very big eyes. Since he was a thoroughbred, I didn't let him stand too long but had him move forward so he didn't think too much. 

He found the beach very exciting and we trotted awhile. Nala was a little bit worked up with this new big TB along, and she cantered next to us some. Nickel was quite strong in a thick eggbutt snaffle, and it felt like maybe if we cantered we would take a long time to slow down. He has been out of serious work for a while, and the sand was very deep, so I did not let him canter more than a couple strides just in case. 

Just before we turned around, Nala went to step over a log and we followed. That was not a great idea. I was not thinking about it, because it felt like he would step too, but he jumped it with a decent effort and I didn't get in position so lost a stirrup. That was all fine, but then he got the idea we were eventing or something, and was pretty excited for awhile, eyeing every log we passed to see if I was going to point him over there. It will be fun to jump him, but that would have been too wild for a first beach trip.

Nala got really excited too now, so her rider had the thought to take her into the ocean. We went close to it and then Nickel started getting bound up and I saw that he was going to panic if Nala went into it so I said maybe this wouldn't be a good idea right now. 

For a few minutes I was regretting he had been taught dressage because when I asked him to be slow and calm, he just did shoulder in and half pass and stayed faster than I wanted. We didn't get calm until after we were off the beach a couple blocks, but we thought he did very well for his first time, especially with Nala who was a bit riled up. We kept our distance and she did show him the double barrels a couple times to make sure he didn't bother her. Or else she was just showing off. 

I could feel there was a good work ethic in him, and felt quite lucky to ride Nickel. Nala's rider thought it was a bit brave or crazy to just ride him straight out the first time, but I figured we'd know pretty quickly after we hit the beach if he was going to lose it completely, and then I could have gotten off and led him. We may try his first canter in the wide open spaces with Hero rather than Nala, in case one of them decides to run off before Nickel is fit for it.


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## SueC

That sounds like a great ride, @gottatrot - wild and fun!  What a huge horse! Your storytelling made me laugh.


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## gottatrot

Here are some pictures from the ride with Nickel:
The pics get larger if you click on them.

From the side you can see his size. He is quite narrow like Nala, so my legs actually make it a ways down his side. When I got on him it was so nice to not be doing the splits for once, like I do on Hero's wide barrel.


























He has a nice big walk, which I appreciated.


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## DanteDressageNerd

The Oregon coast is so beautiful, Nickel looks really happy. And the weather actually looks pleasant for the coast


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## gottatrot

I was planning to meet up with Nala's rider so we could take out Hero with Nickel today. It was funny because I got a text from her that used autocorrect, and it said "I have him tacked but he is antsy so I have to London first." 

Hero and I had almost made it over to Nickel's barn already when I got the text, and sure enough, when we got there she was London-ing him around in the outdoor arena. This consisted of him galloping full out. Yes, a little antsy. 
It was windy, and my other friend's horse Bandit was in the barn calling for Nickel. There is a huge flag on a pole at this barn that was whipping around, and I commented that they'd never think of putting a flag like that up at an Arab barn. 

While we waited for Nickel to London, I sat on Hero and he started calling loudly to the horse in distress in the barn, along with pawing and rearing, with the occasional buck thrown in. There were other horse people around and I thought of Knave's horse Bones and whether some horses should go out in public. But I'm too practical and/or pig-headed to be embarrassed over things I can't change. 

Nickel was quite brave and led us out to the beach, not even hesitating to go down the big dune. At first Hero wanted to keep up, but after a while he decided he didn't care enough about the guy and stopped trying. Hero spooked Nickel once, by bolting forward when a dog came out of the bushes. That was too bad, but his rider took his little bolt all in stride.

On the beach it was high tide and super windy. We went down a little ways and Hero was not happy about the very deep sand. So we turned back the other way and went about the same distance. Nala's rider was able to canter Nickel a bit since Hero was not excited about being on the beach, and also not going fast. She felt what I did on our last ride, that he would be quite willing to take off for a couple miles if allowed. We discussed a stronger bit for faster beach rides.

We did some up and down and circles. Hero bucked at least 30 times. I think soon my experience with bucking will far surpass most people's. Two things I notice. One is that it is great for his muscle development and he is looking very buff. The other is that he does it with such relish and clearly considers it one of his gaits. It is a rather slow gait that does not go anywhere very fast though. Which is not great with the other TBs we ride with. I only almost fell off twice. This was my fault, because instead of going with the bucking I was trying to make him canter, which meant sitting down and that makes me vulnerable to his upward tossing of the hind end.

The good news is that Nickel seemed quite oblivious. We also got him to go in the ocean, without incident. His rider thinks he is used to having to do individual courses with eventing and not focusing on other horses as much. Both Nala and Hero are poor examples for him. Both are quite good on trails, and in an arena, but not on the wild beach. We are thinking of trailering two of the horses somewhere on Friday, not sure which two.

We rode Nickel back to his barn and then Hero got all confused about if he wanted to leave the horse crying in the new barn, or go back to Nala and Amore. This frustrated him and he got very hot about it and pranced and bucked all the way back home. He had a workout, anyway, and I thought he looked quite lovely all sweated up and gleaming when I took his tack off.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...While we waited for Nickel to London, I sat on Hero and he started calling loudly to the horse in distress in the barn, along with pawing and rearing, with the occasional buck thrown in...
> 
> ...We did some up and down and circles. Hero bucked at least 30 times. I think soon my experience with bucking will far surpass most people's. Two things I notice. One is that it is great for his muscle development and he is looking very buff...and I thought he looked quite lovely all sweated up and gleaming when I took his tack off.









At MY age, I'm kind of liking this :Angel::








Stick a joint in his mouth and let him puff along the trail that way...:rofl:


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## gottatrot

^^^^Ha ha!

Some of you know that I am great at suggesting things for other people's horses. Good advice or not, something will come to mind, LOL. But we all have some measure of "barn blindness," and it's harder to see things for or about your own.

Yesterday I was thinking a lot about Hero, and realizing that I've still been trying to push him into a role he doesn't fit well into. I was thinking about how Phantom's horse Raven did not fit in with the endurance role she had planned for him. Since I'm not involved in serious competition, I can be flexible and change to fit the horse. But I was thinking that I haven't really done that for Hero as much.

For Amore I wanted to do jumping and dressage, when I first got her. This was a horse that was naturally a terrible jumper, scared of everything and also went nuts if you over-cued. She enjoyed going out on the trails at a good clip with other horses. That was her forte. So I adapted my plans.

Hero does not love going for long distances at a fast pace. I was mentioning on another thread that I've heard horses need legs, mind and metabolism to do endurance. He does not have the mental motivation, and is too heavily muscled to go farther than the usual stock horse - he is built more like a QH. I've known he wouldn't do endurance. Still, what I have kept trying to use him for is longer, faster beach or trail rides, which is a stretch. 

My thought is that I need to find what he really enjoys doing. He might actually prefer to do more focused work, and I am thinking about starting him with something like working equitation. I think he is brave enough for the obstacles, and he has more of a sprinter build, so if I could motivate him to do it, he might enjoy it. I've decided to try experimenting with some things that might suit his tenacious temperament, so I'll let you all know how it goes.

If anyone has suggestions, let me know!


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## egrogan

Oooh...that sounds fun @gottatrot. Working equitation is becoming really popular here. Will be curious to see how it goes.


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## Knave

I was just thinking the same thing as egrogan! That sounds fun! With no agenda you can try a lot of different things. Why not try jumping and dressage now? He does seem to always want to be screwing around.

I have some freedom in summer to play around with whatever I like if we aren’t planning any competitions. I like to work on some dressage and jumping. Bones loves those games, he loves any arena game, but now the girls are the ones riding him.

Cash hates training. He likes working. He seems to think pulling logs for our projects is the very best job he ever had, surprising me. What else surprised me was that he enjoys playing games. He is such a serious style of horse I would have never guessed it. 

Working with little girl, I try and find ways for us to train the horses and her while having fun. We play competitions and play games. This year we started pretending we are Calvary men in a war. Serious Cash suddenly is motivated to do all sorts of things. Spooky Cash could care less about all of the yelling and movements going on. He even learned to “sneak” by dropping his head way down and slowly walking while I duck down. 

Bones loved a game we called “magical unicorn” (we even had a made up sound track lol) where we did a lot of chasing. I don’t let Cash chase people on the ground because he is aggressive with other people. 

Anyways, I think you will find something he excels at! Then, maybe he will enjoy the long rides on the beach more. Sometimes I wish Lucy could get a shot at being a dressage horse. She was made to be a dressage horse. She learns quickly and over dramatizes her movements to an extreme. She isn’t very fast because she is so up and down. Lol


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## egrogan

@Knave, if it's not too complicated, could you tell me a little more about how you started on pulling logs with Cash? I've been trying to think of something for Maggie to do- she desperately needs some exercise- and she's taking to bucking when I ride her in the bareback pad and I'm not @gottatrot so am not super interested in working through that :wink: I lunge her a little, but who likes endless circles? I take her for walks, but our roads are rough gravel and her feet aren't the best so I try to limit time on gravel to keep her barefoot. My lovely husband and I have been joking that we could really use her help pulling some deadfall to the burn pile. But maybe it's something that could be reality.


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## Knave

@egrogan of course I could! 

With Cash I pull from the horn. He was petrified of ropes, so I did a lot of desensitizing on the ground first. I don’t remember if you have a saddle with a horn...

To pull from the horn you simply attach the loop of the rope to whatever you are pulling, and then you dally around the horn. At first use a practice log. This log is light and you don’t have to dally to pull it, but can pull it yourself by simple holding on to the rope. Likely she will spook, but just keep it slow and pull it on the inside of your turns to start. Sometimes when the rope first hits their butt they will spook pretty good, so keeping it to the inside lets them get comfortable with the idea before it presses against their butt.

After she can pull the light log you can dally. Keep your thumb facing up on the rope! Most important because many people have cut their thumbs right off. Traditionally you pull from the right side. Dally, or wrap, the rope around the horn counter clockwise. If you panic over a spook or anything going wrong simply pull up on the rope and the dallies are free.

After practicing that you likely can pull your deadwood out. It is good for getting broke horses. Just like us, real work tends to mellow, and doing work together builds a partnership and respect on both ends.  

I pulled Zeus from the harness for helping, and that worked too, but seems more complicated to teach. Probably it is because I am new to harness stuff.

I will look and see if I have a picture to help you visualize your dallies and pulling. I found a couple of Cash and Moon. Moon is pulling our practice log, and Cash was learning to pull before I put more logs into the rope.

I also thought to tell you, always watch what you are pulling! It is easy enough for a rope to get under a tail and in turn a rider get bucked off. Like looking behind you when you back up, or always being aware of a rope when you are ponying another horse, be aware of your rope. Safety first!

I wish I could be there to help you! Maybe little girl and I will make a “how to” video for you soon. Today is supposed to be nasty.


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## egrogan

Thank you @*Knave* , for the description and the photos. The little white pony hard at work!!! :loveshower:
Unfortunately I do not have a saddle with a horn; actually, I don't have a saddle that fits Miss Maggie at all right now (hence the need to exercise!). I was pondering whether there was a way I could teach her to pull hooking up something with a curcingle (it's the lunging type, with many d-rings). It may just not work for her, as I would want to be very safe about it.

If it doesn't work with Maggie though, I bet it's something I could figure out how to do from the saddle with Fizz. A lot of the extreme trail competitions involve dragging a log, so it could be something to learn for the future. Is it something that's possible simply by holding the rope, when a horn is not available? Or is that too dangerous? :think:


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## Knave

I don’t know how you’d do it with Maggie @egrogan. I was thinking Fizz. If you had a harness you could, but I don’t know how it could work with what you have.

It is safer just holding the rope actually, but then what weight you can carry is very minimized of course. I have been making Cash pull pretty heavy from the horn. That is fine of course, but I think I probably wouldn’t ask him to pull extremely heavy dead weight. Probably not over 300#s from a horn, and even that is asking a lot if you are working for very long. I assume harnessed up they could tote a lot of weight.


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## Knave

Not to clog up Gotta’s journal (sorry for the distraction Gotta), but I wanted to include a picture of where we are at with our log pulling adventure!


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## gottatrot

Great pictures, @Knave!

I think Maggie could still pull with just a surcingle; you could put the rope through one of the larger rings on one side, and then over the top of the back and through another ring back to your hand. That should release quickly if necessary, but would put most of the pull on the horse rather than on your hand. As long as she has a decent width of belly (and I think I remember she might :razz, the surcingle shouldn't want to come back toward her tail even with a fairly decent weight being pulled. 
@egrogan, I wonder if Maggie doesn't like things over her shoulders. Amore always was a bucker when things went over her shoulders, and many bareback pads would do that. You might be better off with grippy pants and no pad. Amore rarely bucked in her older years, but even after age 20 when I went on vacation, a girl who was watching her for me decided to ride her bareback, put her knees over her shoulders, and got bucked off. I hadn't thought to tell her about that little quirk.


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## egrogan

@Knave- that fence (corral?) is amazing! Great work to all involved :grin:
@gottatrot- interesting thought on using the surcingle. We may just give that a try over the weekend! And yes- Maggie is certainly "broad" all over, but I think I can keep things in place. Another interesting thought on the shoulders. I personally think she's just a little offended at the suggestion of doing anything- she is, after all, "retired"  I know her owner has ridden her bareback quite a bit because she had saddle fit issues before going to a Bob Marshall (she mentioned how comfortable she is given the aforementioned "broadness") but I actually don't know if it was truly bareback or with a pad. I can try it though and see if we get a different reaction!


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## gottatrot

I am laughing to myself a bit about a thread on Arab temperament. Apparently most people do not believe they're a hot breed. I've also been on a thread that insisted most TBs are mellow too. People on both threads found that most horses they'd experienced were not hotter than stock horses, and their supposed reputations were based on either misinterpreting sensitivity or else poor handling by excitable people. 

Well, I suppose the horses in the Pac. NW could be different from all the others in the rest of the country. I was counting up about 30 stock horses I've ridden, and of all those there was one I could say was a bit spooky, and one other that was slightly reactive. 

Out of 10 TBs I've ridden seriously, one was not hot. Out of about 25 Arabs I've ridden seriously, five were not very hot, and those were still hotter than all the stock horses except for two very mellow Arabs. 

Out of the other breeds I've ridden, the gaited horses, Saddlebred or ASB crosses, and some Morgans have also been hot. None of the other breeds I've ridden have been, and the majority of horses I've ridden have been not spooky or hot, so obviously it's not me making the horse that way. That being said, I'll acknowledge I've spent most of my time riding horses that were hotter than most.

Not being pretentious or arrogant, but I do believe I know what hot is. This was what happened today.








My point is that if I say a horse was "spooky," "hot," or "reared," or "bucked," the horse actually did REAR.

@Dantedressagenerd talks a lot about difficult horses, and how many trainers don't show the ugly stuff. I am posting a video of some ugly horse training today. Hero and I tried working on some obstacles today. I don't like to fight with horses, but today I was asking for one very simple thing, which was to trot around some barrels. I wasn't asking even to _weav_e around the barrels, but simply to go around the perimeter. 

What I got was a hard "no" from Hero, and so there was some ugly stuff and spankings with the flat of my hand. In the end I was successful, and it wasn't that I had to win, or that this was a terrible situation. But I don't think with a horse as strong-willed as Hero I can just let him decide to not do things if he chooses, if I am asking for a very simple task. This was not positive training, and I'm not sure what would have been a better way to approach it. 
I think I was pretty calm, although certainly I could have had better timing and such at some points. My smacks and getting off to run Hero around did seem to be enough incentive in the end, and we ended well. 

He went over a jump several times nicely, but that was out of the camera which I didn't realize since there was a post in the way. He also backed through some poles well. 




Song is called "Trauma," LOL. N'to, Worakis remix.

I'm not sure if Hero will like obstacles after all, but we'll give it a little time to see. 
BTW, I absolutely do not condone bucking, rearing or other bad behaviors from horses. I'd much prefer to never ride any of that stuff, and would get rid of it in a heartbeat if I had a magic wand I could wave over Hero.

Amore is the innocent bystander in all of this, but was not too perturbed. We had a nice walk together, the three of us as warm up before going into the arena.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think arabs are pretty hot, I have never ridden one that wasnt sensitive and opinionated. I've worked with an egyptian bred that had no brain to speak of, just reaction and no thought. Others I think are quite smart and sensitive and want to work with a person BUT it has to make sense and be explained. I generally like the PB's better than part bred arabs. I'll say for thoroughbreds the ones I've ridden are hotter than say a stock horse or something along those lines. Generally I think of them as reasonably sensitive and reasonably hot. Not out of their mind hot and LOTS and LOTS of walking because some really over think and stress because they want to get it perfect. So as a rider its' always giving reassurance and trying to convince them. 

I often think people view others as pretentious or arrogant if a person knows something and says they do. It really threatens some people and I kinda view it as they can go suck a you know what. It's people, they get jealous, insecure or they want to rag on someone or hate someone to deal with their personal problems, so they demean the person they're threatened by and God forbid you have a shred of confidence or know what you're doing. 

Honestly I find confidence or belief in yourself at all angers a group of women more than anything else. It's a sad reality. Then they call you conceited, arrogant, etc. I think it's because they're unhappy, incomplete people who cant stand to see happiness or ability in others, especially if that ability and experience exceeds their own. It's people. I would never consider you arrogant or pretentious. 

I generally find people who dont have very much experience riding a variety of horses are the most arrogant and judgmental when it comes to having difficult horses, most people and their trainers have barely any experience with a genuinely tricky horse. I think when you have more experience and have dealt with and ridden more you're more humbled and are better at interpreting what is going on and what a rider is doing. 

I can see it with Hero and sometimes I think they just want to test, if Hero is very smart like what you've described him to be and very independent minded, I think they just have a will of their own sometimes and it is NOT that they're in pain or anything that is asked is unreasonable, the rider is not being rough or unfair. Sometimes I think these independent minded, very smart horses like to call the shots and are a bit of convince me. Sometimes it's just the day, I know Wonder had a day where we did extended trot and I asked him to come back and he went straight up and bunny hopped forward in the rear and I was like you, thinking SERIOUSLY!? I dont condone it either, Ive been able tot train it out of most but some you just cant and some people go oh I could fix that and Im like okay, good luck lol

Some horses take a while to adjust to new concepts or ideas or the idea of a rider being able to influence them more than they're comfortable with. I genuinely think that is why some horses in dressage, when more is asked of them become more difficult. I've met really sweet horses who when they're doing the low level 1st-2nd type stuff are very easy and then 3rd and they have to have that must more collection and release that much more of their body to a rider arent comfortable with that. Some hate that release to the rider or submission and stop there, others are uncomfortable for a little bit and move on. Maybe it is similar for Hero encountering the obstacles?


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## Dragoon

Hahaha, that video was funny! He IS a stubborn one!

Your swats were perfectly timed to the unsafe behaviors he was displaying. I'm sure the horse understood the connection to his act and yours. IMO, those swats were justified. Quiet persistence is what got him around the barrels.

Its my theory that OTTB grow up without the "pet" aspect of horse-human relations. So, absolutely no desire to please. Or even inkling that cooperating with humans leads to fun or food. Two years on, my ottb mare looks forward to attention from me....whereas before she was like, you have nothing I want, so why would I do that for you?
What I'm trying to say is, perhaps Hero has yet to learn to humor your strange requests...he is still learning you.


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## Knave

I think we all tend to relate the breeds to the horses we personally knew. Therefore, you assume stock horses are pretty dull, but many of the little cutters I know have been exceptionally hot. The hottest I rode had to be literally cut of the roping box for high centering herself during a tantrum when I was teaching her to rope. Hot hot hot she was, but I liked her.

Yet, I worked at an Arabian ranch when I was first married. I loved the horses. I’d always heard negative things about Arabs, and these horses were wonderful. Most had been superstars in their disciplines. They were well broke and fun to ride. They had ambition, but I didn’t call any of them hot. Only one horse was there I didn’t like. He didn’t like me either. He was the only crossbreed though.

I’ve only known a couple thoroughbreds. They were both very nice horses. One handed to my father in law at a race. We took her home for him and started riding her. She was particularly ugly, but she was the kindest mare. My husband hated her, because he expected her to handle work like a green broke horse, and she didn’t understand outside things. She wasn’t mean, just confused.

My sister in law ended up taking her for a family horse. They loved her, but eventually she went lame. 

I think we have all been exposed to only what we’ve been exposed to. Often we may find something to argue about, but only because we haven’t looked through the same experiences. I didn’t read that thread. I didn’t want to read that all horses of any breed were any specific way. I have come to decide a horse is a horse (excepting a fjord). There are hot ones and dull ones, kind ones and aggressive ones and many others. I think where differences come into play exist more in inane talents.

Myself, I would choose and Arab for endurance, a qh to cut and run barrels, a tb to jump. That’s not saying other breeds cannot be successful at these things, but I just think that you are betting with the odds in your favor when you make these choices.


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## bsms

"Hot" has so many meanings that I no longer find it useful. But in terms of "ugly"...that might hit a 2 on my 10 point scale. 3 at the most. And none of what follows is advice on Hero. I've never been on a bucking horse and know nothing about Hero as a horse. Strictly talking about "ugly" from my perspective.



bsms said:


> ...[Wednesday, 26 June]...However, during our last couple of minutes, he heard Trooper screaming like a stuck pig and started answering back. He's never done that before. The third time, he took in air, and as he opened his mouth to scream I pulled back hard with the reins, gagging him in mid-scream. Did that again a minute later, same reason. Then dismounted at our regular spot. He let out another scream and I slugged him in the neck. He started to let out another a minute later and I jerked his halter and chewed him out, cuss words included. After that, as we walked the 5 minutes home, he would start to...and then look at me and sigh. He's never done that before and I don't want him to start...


A lot of folks would tell me I was being harsh. I used the bit to punish his mouth, in essence, for screaming. From the ground, I punched my horse. Not slapped. I slugged him. If someone had taken a video, they might have turned me in for horse abuse. From my perspective, though, Screaming Bandit was NOT thinking about me. Or the trail. Or the cactus. Or the rocks. He was intensely thinking about Trooper - a half-mile away. While there are things 3 feet away that could do serious harm to us both.

No option at that spot of working sideways or going off trail. Solid cactus. So I used the reins harshly to say, "Oh no you're not!" Dismounted, I suppose I could have insisted on turning him in tight circles. Like Mia, he resents those. So...I hit him. Not a slap. It was his neck and he was mentally 90% with Trooper. Even when I punched him with my fist hard in the neck, he barely seemed to notice. But a minute later, he was at least enough with me mentally that I could get in his face and chew him out. Like Mia, he understands that.

It isn't as though I was beating him bloody. And we've been together for 4 years. He knows me. Before we got home, he asked for and got some head rubs. When your horse's mind is between his ears, he is easy to influence. When it is 5 feet away, it doesn't take much. When it is 1/4 or 1/2 mile away, getting the horse to reel it back to his body takes more...emphasis?

I am big on "mutually acceptable compromises", but I also believe in boundaries. I don't have a lot of boundaries. And within those boundaries, I give my horse a lot of freedom and choices. At the same time, one sometimes needs to go toe to hoof with the horse and make it clear compromise works both ways.

How would I have worked Bandit in that situation? Beats me. He has never reared and I'll be happy to never ride a rearing horse. We do have experiences like that, where he decides some spot at the edge of our little arena is "bad". Maybe a smell in his case, since there could easily be a coyote-****ed bush there. Oh well. If so, there is coyote **** all over the desert. Can't stop for it or we'd never go anywhere.

But how I respond depends on things like his behavior the previous 5 minutes, how tense his back is, how he is moving his head (he's very expressive with his head and neck). And of course, Bandit might respond to solution X one way, while Mia would another, and Trooper yet another.

There was a dressage rider whose champion dressage horse was spooky. Apparently she was known to use rollkur during warmups. Horrifying! Except...maybe that was what THAT horse needed to get the connection back. I object to Clinton Anderson's video training and some others because it seems as if every problem is solved by taking the horse's head away or making him turn in tight circles. Both of which I was frequently told to do with Mia and both of which made Mia much, much worse. As the old saying goes, if the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail!

Needs lots of tools. And need to let others use them. The proof will be in the pudding. Let the results score the method. I'll never be 1/10th the rider that many who post on this thread are now. Nor 1% of the rider that many top riders are. I hate it when people who have never experienced the Middle Hoof Salute condemn others who have.

Bit of a rant. I get really tired of the dominance approach to riding, but I get equally frustrated with the unicorn approach. I'm not an Elf-Lord of Middle Earth! Neither am I a bully. I want to ride based on mutually acceptable compromise. I don't get 100% of what I want. My horse doesn't get 100% of what he wants. I don't bully him. He doesn't bully me.

I saw ZERO bullying in the video. ZERO brutality. But I don't know how one makes compromises with the horse unless the horse believes he needs to find SOME solution acceptable to the rider. Without that, a strong-willed horse will walk all over you.


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## lostastirrup

Why have I not been following this journal? I do not know. But I am now.


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## gottatrot

@lostastirrup, I really like your journal.



Knave said:


> I think we all tend to relate the breeds to the horses we personally knew. Therefore, you assume stock horses are pretty dull, but many of the little cutters I know have been exceptionally hot...
> 
> Myself, I would choose and Arab for endurance, a qh to cut and run barrels, a tb to jump. That’s not saying other breeds cannot be successful at these things, but I just think that you are betting with the odds in your favor when you make these choices.


_Thank you_ for this perspective. I appreciate very much the "truth tellers" on this forum. It helps me be open minded and more grounded. Something your post makes me realize is that a lot of Arabs and TBs I have been around have been from rehoming and rescue type situations. Which horses end up there but the more difficult ones? 

Also, the Arab show barn I boarded at had an english show and halter perspective. Which is different from pleasure, ranch and even endurance bloodlines usually. The Morgans and Saddlebreds at that barn were also bred for those things. 

I'm thinking about this bias I have, which is sort of "protective" toward newer people. It seems to be based on the disillusionment I had after beginning with Amore, and at the time I had been reading John Lyons books. He was adamant that it is not the breed, it is the training, illustrated by his Appaloosa as a breed with a bad rap. So when Amore turned out to be super reactive and difficult, and quite impossible to turn into a jumper or dressage horse, this idea went out the window.

I have seen hot stock horses at gaming events and such, but considered them outliers because of the percentages I'd experienced. 90% of the trail riders around here or more have very mellow stock horses. Most avoid Arabs, so if they are all selecting horses for temperament, they would not be choosing Arabs anyway. 

My takeaway from this is that every horse should be evaluated as an individual. I may still retain a bias going in that an Arab or TB is going to have the potential to be more energetic. 
That being said, I have known only one Fjord, and she was also quite the individual.



bsms said:


> I am big on "mutually acceptable compromises", but I also believe in boundaries. I don't have a lot of boundaries. And within those boundaries, I give my horse a lot of freedom and choices. At the same time, one sometimes needs to go toe to hoof with the horse and make it clear compromise works both ways...
> 
> ...Needs lots of tools. And need to let others use them. The proof will be in the pudding. Let the results score the method...
> 
> ...Bit of a rant. I get really tired of the dominance approach to riding, but I get equally frustrated with the unicorn approach. I'm not an Elf-Lord of Middle Earth! Neither am I a bully. I want to ride based on mutually acceptable compromise. I don't get 100% of what I want. My horse doesn't get 100% of what he wants. I don't bully him. He doesn't bully me.
> 
> I saw ZERO bullying in the video. ZERO brutality. But I don't know how one makes compromises with the horse unless the horse believes he needs to find SOME solution acceptable to the rider. Without that, a strong-willed horse will walk all over you.


Good words, and thanks for saying I didn't seem too rough on Hero. It seems to me that with everything in life there is a balance. Sometimes we can be very positive and sometimes not so much. I just can't figure out how a person could train with purely positive reinforcement, because at some point you do have to say "this is _*bad*_." 

But I had a lot of spankings as a child, and I believe they were very necessary. You can see how strong willed I am. My siblings rarely ever needed spankings. I can be motivated by positive reinforcement, but sometimes I had to have it proven to me that I could be stopped from doing what I wanted. I remember clearly thinking as a child that someone better _make_ me. 

Something occurred to me this morning. I believe you act like the horse has had no past, but also you think about and consider what their past was. I think @Dragoon is right about OTTBs missing out on being pets and feeling positive about humans early on. I'm still getting Hero to see grooming as something other than an assault. I believe there must have been some conflict with his behaviors at the track, because they ran him at 5, which seems so late.

But I was thinking today that the rescue said Hero had been returned three times. Plus who put him in there in the first place? So maybe four people before me have tried to use him for something. The rescue lady was looking for people experienced with TBs when she approached Nala's rider at a show. Her idea was that people were expecting Hero to be trained, rather than green so were disappointed and returning him.

I don't think it was simply that Hero was green (although he was, but I think that was only because people ran into trouble), and I heard that at least one of the people who had him was a trainer. But here we are, in a heavily western riding area, and I was thinking this morning that most people who would try a TB around here would be gamers. So I am wondering now if his inappropriately strong response to the barrels yesterday was just because they were _barrels_. Chances are that one of those people was trying to teach him patterns, and of course he had major stifle issues back then and tight circles are one of the worst things with that. 

I was thinking he just didn't want to run around since he'd had a little grass and Amore was eating, and it wasn't fair. Next time I'll try laying down the barrels or going around something different, and see what he thinks.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> Something occurred to me this morning. I believe you act like the horse has had no past, but also you think about and consider what their past was.



This made me think of a quandary I had as a teacher. I was at a school where teachers "went to the files" to investigate their class for the upcoming year- so basically, you read their permanent records, and stacked them into neat little piles ("the behavior problems," "the smart ones," "the sassy ones", the "ones with difficult parents") before you even met the kids! Now, I was by far no gift to teaching, but knowing some of the other teachers that my incoming students would have had before me, I really didn't want to have preconceived ideas about my new students driven solely by other teacher's notes. Of course, there were some pieces of information in the files you really needed to do your job well- where did they end the year reading, what subjects did they seem to excel at or struggle with, etc.- so you had to know some of that. And in the neighborhood where I taught, family dynamics were very important and you needed to work hard to invite families in to your classroom since many of them had had terrible experiences at school. So yes, it was a balance- you need some info, but that info wasn't destiny because you would respond to all those neatly assembled "facts and figures" in your own way, based on the dynamic you created in your classroom. I think in a lot of ways, it's the same getting a new horse.


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## Knave

Gotta, I think cowhorses and gamers are of hotter blood than the horses you see on a trail. Most of the horses I have been around have all been hot bred. It is rare the gentle types I knew, but as an adult and more mature I would appreciate those gentle souls around. We always say we should have kept that race mare because of her kindness, but at that age we didn’t know to value that so much.

I watch your Hero. He kind of confuses me. He seems to be more stubborn than scared at all. I didn’t think you were wrong at all to discipline him when you did. I don’t think that was overdone. I thought your timing was great, because in that moment was the one time I thought he might lose his cool. He was angry in that moment, ready to tantrum. The rearing is kind of odd though. He’s not really being anything but argumentative it seems. 

He kind of screws around a lot. I don’t have him figured out.


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## Hondo

RE: gottatrot 's post # 2965


Disclaimer: The experiences, thoughts, and perceptions described below are from one who has only five years of significant experiences with essentially only one horse, and one that none would class as hot although reactively spooky under certain situations.


1.There was a log about 4 feet in diameter and about 20 feet long that was very light grey in color. The rest of the tree was gone. Just that log left.


The trail went by the log and Hondo was having none of it. I began experimenting on how close we could come to the log without becoming too nervous. As we zig-zagged and circled coming ever so slightly closer to the log, we finally reached it after considerable time. Hondo sniffed it and the log was never a concern on future rides.


2. A trailer appeared in Hondo's 60 acre grazing field. One that he had seen hundreds of times at the ranch house. Hondo was terrified of it for some reason. Just like the log. As we gamely and slowly approached it, I kid you not, an itsy bitsy yellow polka dot butterfly came up out of the grass smack dab in front of Hondo's lowered nose. Hondo lost it.


180 degree nano second spin and bolt. I retained my seat but my back hurt then and for days later. Never the less, I concluded it best to continue. Turned out more or less like the log. Finally sniffed it and all was fine. But it took a while.


3. Same thing when a bulldozer he walked past twice a day was 1.5 miles from where it should have been. 



Temple Grandin talks about her own thinking in pictures and speculates that most or perhaps all animals do also.


She talks about a church steeple. Where most people have a generic church steeple in their memory, she has only each and every church steeple she has ever seen. And if from two directions, there are two pictures. There is simply no generalization in pictures. Each is very very specific.


So how does any of this relate to Hero's antics? 



I speculate that Hondo's fear of the log was perhaps that the picture related to something in his past that alerted him. The trailer and dozer? Fear of the unknown? Fear of the sinister force that moved them? Dunno. I don't have a horse's brain. But to Hondo, the fear was real.


I'm not going to speculate that Hero was fearful, I don't know him, but I'm going to wonder. I also wonder if the soft little pats with a soft little palm actually had any effect on Hero's finally calming to circle the barrels. I wonder if during the passage of time he finally decided since the barrel had made no sinister moves that perhaps it was non-threatening after all. I wonder if he could have been simply zig-zagged and circled closer over time if the soft pats would ever have been needed and if he would have needed to have been _made _to obey if in fact he was _made_ to obey at all in his mind.


I remember the clip of Hero's racing days. No bucking no antics just running.....really fast.


So I wonder, when and why did Hero appropriate these antics? When and why did he first decide metronomes were no fun?



At this point I wish to re-direct any readers attention to the disclaimer stated at the beginning.


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## waresbear

Gottatrot, you rock! I don't touch difficult horses anymore, I did when I trained for the public, one year, almost lost my love for riding and horses. I want a horse that will never have it in its head to buck, rear or any other potentially dangerous behavior. I want a colt that I start fair, honestly, and slowly, to never want to do those things. When I trained other people's horses most of them were Arabs, smart, easy to train, easy to show them a better way if their owner had mucked with them first. The worst was some sort of cross-bred quarter horse, Appaloosa mix. I suspect that horse was hurting somewhere, it was older and very jaded. It behaved like your Hero and never quit. I quit training all together for the public after that and just ride my own horses. My passion for riding and horses returned very quickly. I totally respect your perspective on difficult horses and your determination.


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> So yes, it was a balance- you need some info, but that info wasn't destiny because you would respond to all those neatly assembled "facts and figures" in your own way...


That's very interesting. I like that, "info isn't destiny." People can change, horses too. 



Knave said:


> I watch your Hero. He kind of confuses me. He seems to be more stubborn than scared at all...
> 
> ...He kind of screws around a lot. I don’t have him figured out.


Thank you, me neither!!
Today I took him for about a two mile walk. As we were walking, he did rear or act up several times, and so I made him either back afterwards or move sideways. He obviously saw those things as reprimands and after awhile quit and was very cute, playing with the reins in his mouth and the crop I was holding.
If even @Hondo says my smacks were "soft," then I figure I can use a flat leather smacker that makes a sound, and is probably even softer than my hand. The end of mine is like this.








Something I realized today when walking is that Hero doesn't try to bite me anymore. He stopped ever kicking at me quite awhile before that. So those are two signs of progress. 



Hondo said:


> ...As we gamely and slowly approached it, I kid you not, an itsy bitsy yellow polka dot butterfly came up out of the grass smack dab in front of Hondo's lowered nose. Hondo lost it.


Now that sounds like what Amore would do.



Hondo said:


> ...I'm not going to speculate that Hero was fearful, I don't know him, but I'm going to wonder. I also wonder if the soft little pats with a soft little palm actually had any effect on Hero's finally calming to circle the barrels. I wonder if during the passage of time he finally decided since the barrel had made no sinister moves that perhaps it was non-threatening after all. I wonder if he could have been simply zig-zagged and circled closer over time if the soft pats would ever have been needed and if he would have needed to have been _made _to obey if in fact he was _made_ to obey at all in his mind.
> 
> I remember the clip of Hero's racing days. No bucking no antics just running.....really fast.
> 
> So I wonder, when and why did Hero appropriate these antics? When and why did he first decide metronomes were no fun?


Antics are hardest at full gallop, for sure. I wish they had video of the horses being ponied to the post, since I think that would tell me a lot more. Hero's jockey used the crop a lot. Maybe if he was forward he was good. 

The trick for me is that Hero won't just stand and think, like some suggest to wait it out with horses. If he stands, he'll be trying to eat, or get down and roll, or etc. But he tends to freeze rather than move, so getting the motion to work with and circle closer, etc is a real trick. 



waresbear said:


> ...I quit training all together for the public after that and just ride my own horses. My passion for riding and horses returned very quickly. I totally respect your perspective on difficult horses and your determination.


Thank you, it's interesting to hear about other people's experiences with difficult horses. I always hope to learn something that will help me. I can't imagine training for others, because how can you put a time limit on things? And I can imagine they would have unrealistic expectations. Plus it would be hard for me because I want horses to be at their best physically, and obviously Hero is doing far better physically and getting strong with good muscle development. Which gives horses a lot of extra energy sometimes.

I was thinking about what @bsms said about Rollkur, and seeing things in a video is one thing, but I was amusing myself by capturing stills from my video and seeing what awful things or "great" things were happening.
Here is my horse in severe Rollkur:








And here you can see I've taught him the Spanish Walk:








Here we are getting ready to do either Piaffe or Passage - have you ever seen such great hind end collection?








Here's another of "collection," ha ha, hind end under, withers up.








Here he is showing how cute he looks when he is naughty.


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## waresbear

No matter how difficult he is, he certainly not hard to look at! Very handsome horse.


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## knightrider

My very first teaching job started in October when the third grade teacher got word that her adoption came through and she quit that very day. . . and I got hired to start the next day.

I went into the classroom completely cold--no time to prepare anything--and after a few days, I decided NOT to look at the kids' records. One of the other third grade teachers asked me how the kid was doing who had come straight out of a special ed class, and I said I didn't know which kid that was. The other teacher said, "You'll figure it out soon enough." But I never did. At the end of the year, out of curiosity, I looked, and was amazed. It was a boy who did quite well all year. I had just treated him like all the other kids and he acted like all the other kids.

We used to take our 6th graders camping for a week, and I got to go help with the riding program. We went every year so I knew all the camp horses and how the riding director did everything. One year, the riding director had broken her leg a few days before we went to camp. The camp director said, "No worries. You know the program and the horses. You'll be fine on your own."

The were two new attractive chestnut horses in the pasture when we arrived, and I assumed the camp had acquired two new ones for the program. The kids arrived, and I put them on what I hoped were appropriate horses. I put two confident-type kids on the two new horses since I didn't know them. We did lessons and trails and it was all going great. Four days into the camp, the instructor with the broken leg showed up on crutches to see how we were doing. She was horrified to discover I was using those two red horses. They were privately owned horses boarding at the camp, and both were known to be bad actors who misbehaved for their owner. We had done fine with them for 3 days. I assumed they were camp horses and would be OK for kids to ride . . . and they were.

That's not to say that always happens. It just is a possibility.

On letting horses look at spooky objects. Anyone who has read Isabeau's journal knows that she is quite a unique horse. I never trained a horse like Isabeau. I learned that the longer I let her look at scary objects, the more she talked herself into thinking they were going to hurt her. Bonking her soundly and riding her past them is the only way to go. If I let her stop and look, after about 10 minutes of looking, she suddenly spin bolts wildly in fear. She's a crazy mare, but she has done so well. I just can't train her like a normal horse.


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## Hondo

When truly fearful, stopping and looking has never worked well for Hondo. When truly and seriously fearful, I question whether stopping and looking would help with any horse.


But the bullock cart scene has always worked for Hondo and I, meaning to stay at a distance where there is perhaps some alarm, but no serious fear. And then work through it by moving this way and that, circling if possible but never getting close enough to cause serious fear. Eventually the alarm subsides enough to get a little closer, at least it has for Hondo and I. When he can actually "feel" it with his nose, since he doesn't have fingers, all is well.


See disclaimer in previous post.


Edit: It would be interesting to be able to see Hero's heart rate on a wrist watch during various antics. That should be an indication of whether fear was present or not.


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## bsms

knightrider said:


> ...I learned that the longer I let her look at scary objects, the more she talked herself into thinking they were going to hurt her. Bonking her soundly and riding her past them is the only way to go...


Bandit is sometimes like that. A toss of the dice. He wants ME to take a look. But then...sometimes he can look and you can feel the tension going out of him. Wait a little longer and he'll sigh and be ready to go.

But sometimes it feels more like a pot coming to a boil. I've had people tell me they couldn't "feel" their horse through a western saddle. Hmmmm. Probably depends on what one is used to. I've never had much problem even with the solid roping saddle, and the 17 lb Abetta sure doesn't interfere. When Bandit starts to boil up, it is time to get his mind OFF the object and the feet MOVING. But to do so at that point will require more aggression than is pretty.

Same with the calling the other day. You can see his mind floating across the sky like a balloon. Get it back or deal with a horse who isn't thinking nor interested in what you are thinking. You have to jump in his chili at times like that. "Bonk soundly" might cover it. Or this:








I don't know why people have used rollkur. I know why I have sometimes see-sawed my horse's mouth. No whip, no crop, no spurs, lots of cactus around us and rock underneath...and a horse who is about to boil over.
*
"Hey! I'm here! Don't you DARE ignore me!"​*
Those who have attended a *Gottatrot Dressage Class* - free enrollment sponsored by their horse - will understand. I'd LOVE to be able to say, "_Take a good look. Makes sense? Excellent. Stroll on._" Sometimes I can. Golden! On the flip side, I have no desire for this:

"_NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that...The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways._"

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-we-train-fearless-trail-horse-99776/

I do want it both ways - a thinking horse who works with me, not for me. But that means I will sometimes need to ride what I've got, shout, be very directive - in hopes that we'll get to where that isn't needed. Based on 4 years of Bandit, the trend is my friend. However, 15 years from now, I might need to jump in his chili. Or "Bonk him soundly". Get his feet moving and his mind within arm's reach. Put on my Top Hat and thrill to the dressage performance. Then try to get MY heart rate down afterward.


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## Knave

I get where all three of you are coming from! My dad is an excellent horseman, and his theory is to completely ignore it. Horse spins sideways and he just keeps riding him forward pretending nothing happened. Ignoring things sometimes is the best plan.

That seems close to the plan for Isabeau. A lot of hot horses seem to need that to be the response. Yet, my General and I believe Cash, worked really well with Hondo’s plan. It also was a brilliant way to learn rollbacks. General was great at rollbacks, and he hated doing them, so often he pretended nothing was scary. With Bones that theory would backfire fast, so he needed me to ignore things or push him forward.

I think it is hard to judge a horse from the outside. I know I have no idea where Hero is coming from by watching. It is easy to me to feel the difference between simple arguing and fear, but watching Hero I wasn’t sure. Watching I didn’t feel that he was scared. I felt more like he was tantrumy, but I don’t know because he isn’t wearing his emotions on his sleeve.

I only say I wasn’t sure of his motivation because he wasn’t fast. I don’t know if that makes sense, but that was my hang up with it. Same thing in the round corral; it confused me.


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## waresbear

I operate like your dad does Knave. In the last few years I have been perfecting total relaxed seat and body. My one horse is a great arena horse, lousy on trails if he's by himself. He did the funky chicken walk in extreme rollkur on a loose rein and sweats. I thought I am relaxed, I'm giving him a lot of rein but using my body to hold him back. So I stop using my body to hold him back and became totally relaxed, stop telling him to slow down and take it easy, and just rode him like we are on a lazy trail ride. Works like a charm, I could feel the tension just leave his body when I let everything relax on my body. Works for him, admittedly I haven't tried it on any other horses, my other two are fine on the trail.


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## Knave

I try to roll that way on nervous horses too @waresbear. Bones relaxes when I ignore him, but I have to push him forward if I have to cross water, because I actually have to get to the other side. Lol

I found General to be exactly how you describe occasionally. One day I decided to tell him, “okay, let’s do rollkur and dance. I like dancing. This is a great idea.” After a little bit he realized I was going along with him instead of holding him back. Then, for just a moment or two more, when he decided it was getting to be work, I said “Let’s keep dancing. I like it.” Lol 

He actually stopped doing that after I went along with him! If he ever started again I joined, and he wouldn’t keep it up at all.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I think it is hard to judge a horse from the outside. I know I have no idea where Hero is coming from by watching. It is easy to me to feel the difference between simple arguing and fear, but watching Hero I wasn’t sure. Watching I didn’t feel that he was scared. I felt more like he was tantrumy, but I don’t know because he isn’t wearing his emotions on his sleeve.
> 
> I only say I wasn’t sure of his motivation because he wasn’t fast. I don’t know if that makes sense, but that was my hang up with it. Same thing in the round corral; it confused me.


All the good thoughts are helpful. Today I worked Hero a little in the field because Nala's rider wanted to trailer her two horses together for a ride. 

Something seemed to click for me, and I think I have figured something out about Hero. I think he is like Amore used to be, when she did not have any tolerance for fright. Except I think what he cannot tolerate is unhappiness i.e. anything less than perfect happiness. It might appear like he is not wearing his emotions on his sleeve, but he actually is. When he is scared, he does something fast like spook or run forward. When he is hesitant or unsure, he freezes. When he is unhappy, he squeals, grunts, bucks, hops or rears. 

So what I believe is that I need to do what I did for Amore, which was to increase his tolerance for unhappiness, and to decrease his reaction to it. That sounds sort of mean, but it's not like Amore wanted to be frightened either. But what registered for her as fright was at such a low level that other horses wouldn't notice it. And it is the same for Hero with unhappiness. He registers unhappiness and reacts strongly to it for something as simple as "I want you to walk in a circle" when he is thinking of doing something else.

I have been so focused on his physical issues that I've not spent time on this. So for example today I had him do some lunging but despite unhappiness, had him do the gait I chose. If he wanted to canter and buck, I had him trot. If he wanted to trot, I had him walk. Basic obedience to commands, but for him it is practicing tolerance for doing things he isn't choosing. 

When I rode him, he decided not to go in a circle, and we practiced doing it anyway, and walking/not rearing. He was successful, and I know this is something we will have to practice over and over for a long time. 

The good thing is I believe he's come farther physically than I'd hoped he would. He doesn't drag his hooves anymore and they keep getting more balanced. I think he will maintain now, so I can focus more on training rather than just fitness and body issues. In case you are wondering, he is the same in the field. Any small unhappiness has him reacting strongly, even if he just steps wrong. But overall he is not an unhappy horse, and today came nickering and running when he saw me. He doesn't see life as a whole negatively, I don't think, but instead reacts strongly to every small inconvenience like a person with a short fuse. 

After working Hero, we took Nala and Nickel out for a trail ride. Nickel is great at trails and was very fun to ride. He's big but can weave through trees better than almost any horse I've ridden. 








I like his tail here.


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## SueC

lostastirrup said:


> Why have I not been following this journal? I do not know. But I am now.


You will need a time machine unless you're a fast reader! ;-) The interesting journals effect...


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## gottatrot

Several short musings...
I went through Hero's diet again on FeedXL and see that when I changed his vitamins a couple months ago I decreased his magnesium by quite a bit. Also (we have hay tested) it looks like his diet might be deficient in Thiamine. So I'm going to add a supplement for those and see if maybe his extra enthusiasm for rearing recently might be related. Both Magnesium and Thiamine deficiencies can cause issues.

It's interesting how Nickel seems to try to make things work, or tries to figure out how to work with what you offer him. We changed his bit before the ride yesterday (from a thick single joint snaffle to a thinner french link), and he chomped it a few times and then decided it would work for him. He also has been used to a tall rider for the past ten years, and I could tell some of my cues were a little off for him but he tried anyway. I lengthened my stirrups and later he started getting excited and cantering away, and I could tell my cue to slow did not have enough leverage for him to relate to. So I tried getting strong from my core, and doing a counter bend, and then he was like "Oh, we're doing dressage again?" and he curved around my leg and did a half pass canter for a few strides. Very nicely diagonal. This did focus his mind, and then I was able to bring him down.

Something that was funny though was a spook he did when we were cantering (it's on the video). He actually spooked UP. That's something I haven't experienced a lot, I only remember once when I was on Halla and a snake ran between her legs, she spooked straight up. It wasn't a rear or anything, just a spook into the air with all four legs. I guess if you're worried, just go up and see if the scary thing will run away underneath you. 

This is a funny article about a horse's critique of bipeds.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/judge-my-rider-jitterbugs-critique-of-bipeds?fbclid=IwAR3n6bW9Q8Q4uE3ZpNnwF6KsGt20jetyujxrRGPgscxaCnNlmrWZnGEvqRQ

*OFF TOPIC:*

If anyone likes fantasy books, I finished a sequel to my first ebook novel on Amazon, and it's free for several days to download. 
The first book _Labyrinth_ has the theme of the usual young girl is chosen as the sacrifice to the monster/volcano/etc. My sister and I as kids read all the fairy tale books, and we always liked it when someone like Robin McKinley made the stories longer. 
I always write stories to entertain myself, and was wanting a Minotaur to not be an evil monster, and also wanted to imagine someone in that situation who was an optimist and thought everything might turn out OK. Although there is supposed to be some romance (not the steamy kind), my sister says there is a stronger relationship between the girl and animals, which she also said she understands, knowing me. :smile: I will warn you that the girl in this book does not particularly like horses.

Anyway, for the second book, I always wanted a longer version of the princess on the glass hill fairy tale. I also wanted a phoenix bird in a story. And the king in my first book seemed so nice, I thought he should find someone too. Well, the characters just kind of did their own thing. This one is more of a romance but the princess does have a pet rat who is quite cute, of course. 

The Glass Mountain:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=evelyn+may+glass+mountain&ref=nb_sb_noss

Labyrinth:
https://www.amazon.com/Labyrinth-Evelyn-May-ebook/dp/B06XZS2HBR/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=evelyn+may+labyrinth&qid=1561960782&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Authors take so long to write books I am waiting for. I want the third Name of the Wind book from Patrick Rothfuss and also Robin McKinley wrote a book called Pegasus and it ended abruptly and needs a sequel!


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## Knave

I logged in only for a moment to scold you. You ruined my morning!  I’ve accomplished nothing because I read your book, and now I need to get to work.

Anyways, I loved it. It was your best work yet.
Congratulations on a great book.


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## Alder

The recent discussions have got me thinking and wondering about associations, emotional associations that is.


I have a sweet gentle dog from a shelter. He was clearly abused, sadly, and if he accidently hurts himself he also becomes terrified. He associates the pain with fear.


I wondered if Hero, in his past, was asked to do new things which led to scary experiences for him, so that now, he is actually afraid if he doesn't know yet what he is being asked to do, or where it will lead.


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## SueC

Thank you for adding to my mile-high pile of quality reading material, @gottatrot! ;-)

@Knave, how on earth do you do it? It takes me at least two days to read a book...


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I logged in only for a moment to scold you. You ruined my morning!  I’ve accomplished nothing because I read your book, and now I need to get to work.
> 
> Anyways, I loved it. It was your best work yet.
> Congratulations on a great book.


Thank you! I appreciate that you read it!!



SueC said:


> Thank you for adding to my mile-high pile of quality reading material, @gottatrot! ;-)
> 
> @Knave, how on earth do you do it? It takes me at least two days to read a book...


I am sure we all read way too much. It's much better for our brains than what a lot of other people do with theirs though...



Alder said:


> The recent discussions have got me thinking and wondering about associations, emotional associations that is...
> 
> ...I wondered if Hero, in his past, was asked to do new things which led to scary experiences for him, so that now, he is actually afraid if he doesn't know yet what he is being asked to do, or where it will lead.


It's interesting, and seems complex to figure out what motivates horses. They are definitely all different. The TB I was riding the other day, Nickel is conditioned heavily to respond to forward cues. So several times we stopped to look at scary things, and twice I felt his heart pounding so obviously he was afraid. Elk kept crossing our path or popping out of the bushes. But when he'd stop, I would give a squeeze with my legs, which apparently I am in the habit of doing this even though in my experience a "stalled out" horse is going to just stand there anyway.

What was disconcerting was that when I squeezed, Nickel would immediately start forward. Then I was like, "Hold on a minute, are you sure you're ready?" It made me realize I am always asking horses to go forward when they stop to look at scary things, but I don't actually expect them to continue on until they are in the right frame of mind. Nickel was going to obey, whether that meant he was ready to face the scary things or not! That is strange to me, and means I better be prepared myself if I am asking him to go, since he's going to rely on my judgment.

Something that makes Hero difficult to assess is that most of the time he does not seem afraid. I'm not just relying on other horses and their reactions to judge whether Hero is afraid, but on his own responses when he is afraid. When he is afraid, he has pretty normal responses such as head up, nostrils flaring, tense body/staring at what concerns him, unwillingness to move toward that object. This is in contrast to when I believe he is not afraid, but rather unhappy. 

For example, he does not seem afraid to leave behind horses in the fields in order to walk away from them with me. If I lead him out, he'll be alert and want to go see what we are doing. If we go to graze, or do something interesting, he will have no concerns. But most of the time his more extreme reactions seem not related to fear, but to unhappiness or over-excitement (anxiety?). For example, if a horse picks up the canter on the beach and goes by him he will often buck. I don't think he is afraid, but he seems unhappy either that they are passing him in that manner or that he thinks they may run off faster than he can follow. To me that seems less like fear and more like unhappiness or anxiety.

It seems that he has emotional associations about certain things that make him upset. He can stay in that upset state for a long time. But it doesn't seem like fear to me. It's more like he has made a decision, and anything contrary to that decision is upsetting to him. If he decides he should stop and graze, then anything that is not stopping and grazing is going to become a problem. 

When I first got Amore, if anything made her afraid she would panic and start bucking. What I had to do was get her to stop the bucking, starting with a few seconds. Once I got a few seconds of lessened panic, I built on that. To me the feeling is almost the same with Hero, except it's not fear that is getting him upset, but rather unhappiness or frustration. This he doesn't tolerate the same way Amore didn't tolerate the fear. So I think I have to work on having him tolerate feeling frustrated, until he can cope with it and give me longer stretches where he does not feel the need to act up due to those emotions. 

It would be impossible to avoid frustrating him, because his threshold is very low. Amore would fear/panic from the tiniest things like the breeze against her tail, a donkey braying on a nearby farm, or the rattle of a ladder. Similarly, Hero has strong reactions to the smallest things, and ones that are necessary for simple ridden work. 

I have a theory about how he might have been conditioned this way. Judging by his physical appearance, he had dealt with the locking stifles for a long time. People with chronic pain often have this "short fuse" because they use up so many endorphins and so much mental focus dealing with the pain. Anything beyond that can be too much for them to cope with and can cause overly strong reactions. Hero was in chronic pain for a long time. He probably developed this habitual response during that time. Now he has to relearn how to cope with things in a less dramatic way, so hopefully I can teach him how.

Hero does not seem to associate me with negative things. He always nickers loudly when I come to the field, and usually comes to greet me. Last night I let the horses out to graze, and Nala and Amore ignored me but Hero came back to sniff at me and see what I was doing. He's always willing to be caught and to go out, and actually much better about that than when I first got him.


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## Knave

@SueC I’ve always been a very fast reader, but it does come with consequences like a lack of long term retention.

Gotta, that is exactly what it looks like from the outside. To be completely honest, this is not my kind of horse. Keno was much the same, although his tantrums were meaner and intense, his motivation was similar. If you remember, he actually was also a friendly horse. He loved me until I ****ed him off. 

This apparently is not in my wheel house. Actually, I knew the horse had me beat, and so that is a big difference. I had come to the end of my own ability with Keno.

Now, your post has me thinking. What if I hadn’t? What if he wasn’t smarter than me?  Yes, I guess I still would have wanted him. I did like him, but I wonder if that personality would have gotten to me anyways given enough time. Certain mentalities can irritate me, and that attitude gets under my skin.


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## bsms

I think Bandit views solo riding the same way. His job is to protect his herd. I take him away. This makes him unhappy. Not scared. Just unhappy. The chance to eat some mesquite beans every 5 minutes or so seems to reduce the unhappiness. I'm going to order a bag like this: 








I plan to put treats in it and make sure Bandit gets something yummy every 5 minutes or so, mesquite or no mesquite. MAYBE that will help him feel happier about going out solo. I guess the pleasure of my company just isn't enough...


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## egrogan

@bsms- I've become a fan of the treats, I think its useful for a horse that needs to see there's a reason to want to hang out with you. (With the full caveat that I am in no way a horse trainer)-as you think about how to use them, maybe consider handing them out when you've asked for something, even something little, and use that as a chance to say "yes" with the treat. It's made mounting a dream for me, Fizz will stand stock still for me to get on from any weird object anywhere, knowing a little treat is coming once I'm settled in the saddle (I've jokingly starting referring to this as "depositing my quarter to start the ride" ). I've just been using broken up alfalfa cubs or little pieces of peppermint as my treats, the tiniest thing I can get quickly from my pocket to her mouth. The funny thing is that even though sometimes we awkwardly miss each other, and the treat falls on the ground, she actually doesn't seem to care at all- it's like the gesture was enough of a thank you. I know some people despise treats, but I feel that it's really worked well for her. It's not made her pushy or rude or anything like that; on the contrary, I think it's made her more interested in working together. (Again- not a horse trainer...)


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## gottatrot

Yesterday I knew we shouldn't ride because of all the firework commotion. So I took Hero out to the arena with Amore, and we did a little practice with getting frustrated/getting calm again. Nothing really frustrated him at first, but then a cow elk came wandering up and stood just outside the arena when I was trying to get Hero to go over a jump. This made him upset, because he had to do what I was saying and he wanted to go over to the elk. So I got some refusals and rearing, pushed him through it, and then chased away the elk and gave him treats, and got him calm again. It seemed to be a good session.

Today we took Nickel and Hero to the beach. 
Nickel's rider had a mishap on the way over. The big barn doors had been shut, and when she opened them to lead Nickel through it spooked him and he ran, knocking her over. She hit her head on the concrete but fortunately was wearing her helmet and was OK. Nickel only went about half a block to where other horses were outside. Again, notice that my friends and I seem to need helmets more than most people.

There was hard sand at the beach today, lots of it. Only a few stragglers and bonfires left from the 4th. Nickel was nervous about seeing people in the water, surfing. Hero was dead calm and was a good role model for Nickel. He decided he likes Nickel, because he lets Hero cozy right up to him. Nickel is very benign towards other horses, and they can pass him or walk closely by him. Hero tested this several times by moving sideways toward Nickel, but all he got was friendliness. So they were able to stick close when anything was concerning, and this made them both happy.

Hero only had one or two episodes of frustration, but I thought @bsms and @egrogan had good advice so had a carrot in my back pocket. When we reached the spot where we wanted to turn around, I stopped Hero and fed him small pieces of carrots. I also gave him some at the top of the dune he doesn't like, and after we did some small circles in the deeper sand. That started to frustrate him, and so I stopped him and gave him treats, which made him un-frustrated right away. 

The other thing I did was bring my crop. He seems to know when I have it and responds more easily to cues. As I told Nala's rider, I have not been carrying it lately, thinking it was a crutch and increasing negativity. But then I thought what is the point of that, this is a horse that bucks and rears, and I'm worrying about if I need a crutch? Seems a bit silly.

So we had a great, positive ride and plan to take the boys over to the state park trails tomorrow.

Nala is out for awhile, she is probably going to get shoes to try to help with her white line disease. It's gotten out of hand. That is one bad thing about sand. If a horse gets a crack, the sand carries the organisms up inside constantly. I've had to be very aggressive with small areas of WLD with Amore. Nala's rider just doesn't have the ability to get on top of it every day, so she might actually have to move her to a different environment for awhile with different footing.


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## gottatrot

..duplicate


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## gottatrot

Our friend got a new pony for her kids a couple days ago, "Arlo," and decided to try him out on the trails with us. The pony is apparently a TWH/Arab cross. He almost gaits at times but not quite. Tons of go but very brave and adorable.

The song is a bad joke, "Pumped Up Kicks" because Hero kicked Nickel. We should have known better, but started out with the pony in front and Hero in the middle. Nickel got pumped up, bounced up on Hero's hind end, and WHAM, out of nowhere got nailed.

It made such a loud crack that his rider thought he got hit in the jaw. However, there was a small cut on the inside of one leg, and we couldn't find any other swelling or injury. Nickel just wanted to eat grass, and so we kept going. He did not show any signs of pain or injury.

The horses were great and the pony was adorable. We put Hero in the rear, and there were no more problems. Did about 8 miles.
The video has some shaky spots, but the pony was so cute going next to Nickel that I left them in. 






After the ride, at home, Nickel's rider decided to have the vet out to put a couple stitches in the cut. It was gapping open after she washed it, and was a bit deeper than it appeared.


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## waresbear

Great vid! I am also a fan of treats. My granddaughters love baking homemade horse cookies. I juice so I have a lot of apple and carrot pulp leftover, we use this to make horse cookies. The horses look forward to seeing those little girls come to the paddocks with bags in their hands filled with treats!


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## tinyliny

Who is "Nickel"? I'm sorry to be so out of touch with your journal. Is this the bay horse with the rider in a white shirt?


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## Knave

I like Nickel! 

When I read I was thinking an Arab x twh was not a pony. Then I watched the video. He really is a pony then right? 

I am confused because I know Bones looks like a pony next to Cash, and Nickel is a big horse. The woman looks big on the pony though. Granted, I look a lot bigger on Bones, but I am tall and I don’t think my feet hang that far. 

So you have to tell me. Is it a real pony?!


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> Who is "Nickel"? I'm sorry to be so out of touch with your journal. Is this the bay horse with the rider in a white shirt?


Yes, Nickel is Nala's rider's new TB she got several weeks ago. He was an eventer but has been doing dressage lately because he did not handle bigger jumps over three feet, and his owner has a new horse that she can do more with. 
He was listed on an endurance forum and came from near you, in Seattle. He seems like a great horse.

Except he is apparently overly stoic because the vet said even though his cut looked small, there was muscle damage underneath and she put a drain in. He will have at least two weeks off. It is another "Murphy's Law" which I have experienced, that when I had one horse she was rarely off, and when I had two horses there were times that both of them were sidelined. Nala is supposed to be letting her WLD grow out of her hooves without being stressed by riding, and now Nickel is out too. 

Very stoic horses worry me, because you can take them beyond what they can handle.



Knave said:


> [MENTION=105474]
> Gotta, that is exactly what it looks like from the outside. To be completely honest, this is not my kind of horse. Keno was much the same, although his tantrums were meaner and intense, his motivation was similar. If you remember, he actually was also a friendly horse. He loved me until I ****ed him off.
> 
> This apparently is not in my wheel house. Actually, I knew the horse had me beat, and so that is a big difference. I had come to the end of my own ability with Keno.
> 
> Now, your post has me thinking. What if I hadn’t? What if he wasn’t smarter than me?  Yes, I guess I still would have wanted him. I did like him, but I wonder if that personality would have gotten to me anyways given enough time. Certain mentalities can irritate me, and that attitude gets under my skin.


I've experienced not getting along with a horse. Probably we all have our personality types we don't get along with. For me, as long as Hero is telling me things, even if he is upset it is something I can work with. 

The horse Maggie I didn't care for, she wouldn't tell me anything and there was no give and take. She just felt dead through the saddle and dead through the reins, and either refused or obeyed but there was no way for me personally to tell if she was happy or upset. I think the worst type of horse for me to work with would be a very strong and difficult horse with that uncommunicative personality. 

Maybe part of being a good horseman is saying that maybe I'm not the best person to work with a certain horse. We don't have to be proud and think we can train any horse, but instead see that for whatever reason our personalities do not click. I get along with most horses, and most people too. Sometimes this is useful with people too, when others just can't take another day with a difficult patient but I can twist it around to make it humorous.

One patient was very demanding and would yell at people a lot. 
I used reverse psychology on her and would start out the shift by pestering her. If you ignored her she'd demand and yell. But if you were the one saying let's wash up and comb your hair and change your gown she would soon get tired of it and ask to be left alone. I also noticed that she liked to make stupid jokes, so I'd ask her to tell me one and then I'd laugh a lot, even though her speech was garbled and I didn't even know what she was saying. But there are a few rare ones that get to me.
But people are like horses and often treats are essential. :smile:



Knave said:


> I like Nickel!
> 
> When I read I was thinking an Arab x twh was not a pony. Then I watched the video. He really is a pony then right?


Yes, Nala's rider said that our friend had a new pony, and I thought she was just using the word to be cute. But Arlo really is a pony. His new owner thought he was 14 hands, but I think he might be a little less. She wants him for her kids to ride. 
They found out his breeding through genetic testing, so I wonder if he might actually be Welsh instead of Arab since they carry a lot of Arab blood.


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, I believe you are in Oregon?
I found the most delightful book that takes place in Eastern Oregon between the Whitehorn Mountains and the Clarks Range by the Little Bird Woman River. These names mean nothing to me, but they might to you.

The time is 1917, and the story is about a young woman who wants to make a living breaking horses, but she doesn't buck them down like folks did in those days. She has discovered lots of techniques on her own to get the horses rideable. The title is _The Hearts of Horses_ and the author is Molly Gloss. The book is so charming. I love reading about likeable characters. I also love horse books that are actually about horses.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> The title is _The Hearts of Horses_ and the author is Molly Gloss.


I will have to read that book, it sounds good.

Yesterday my twin nieces and nephew came for a visit, and played with the horses. They braided Amore's hair and said "She seems to like being scratched _everywhere_," which is true. She loved all the attention. 

My mom is happy to do anything involving her grandkids. She has four kids but only my brother has children.
The twins are 13 this year and their brother is 10, all the kids are tall like both of their parents. I had to put my stirrups down several holes for the girls.









Hero felt very put upon to carry the kids around in circles at the walk and trot. He gnawed on his reins and sighed, and I had to keep giving him treats. He didn't buck or do anything naughty, but I didn't trust him enough to let the kids have the reins, unfortunately. 

This photo says it all. Hero is leaning his nose against me and saying, "You're kidding me, right?" about carrying a light ten year old. That kid is riding with my normal stirrup length, and happened to wear Hero's colors to match. 








Nickel is moving OK after his kick and healing. On Thursday the vet will come to do dental work on Nickel, Nala, Hero and Amore.


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## gottatrot

@knightrider, when I went to order that book: "The Hearts Of Horses," I realized that I have read another horse book by the author Molly Gloss. Have you read the one called "Falling From Horses?" It's a bit brutal, talking about how they used horses in Hollywood (and the stunt riders also). It was interesting though.


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## bsms

Ordering Falling From Horses. The movie lover in me posts this picture of Slim Pickens riding John:


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## Dragoon

Hollywood Hoofbeats is the best book ever! I reference it now whenever I watch a movie!

I'm totally a fangirl of Highland Dale aka Beaut aka Fury! His face in profile so resembles my own black gelding. *insert starry eyes and hearts icon* I ordered the movie Giant because he's the lead horse in it...and I watched that episode of Bonanza "Lonely Runner" you posted, and wow! he plays the "mare" in that! I recognized him instantly! Awww, love, love...thanks bsms!

I'm scared to order the Falling Horses book...the word 'brutal'...whimper...

And the horse Slim is riding is Dear John.  Which he was not, really...
Hahaha


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## knightrider

I'm so excited that some of you are ordering the book_The Hearts of Horses_. I'll be eager to know how you liked it. I was so sad when I finished it because I liked it so much. It's the kind of book that you enjoy re-reading! I plan to get her other books to read, even if they are not about horses, because Molly Gloss is a very skilled writer.


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## gottatrot

If any of you are on FB and want a smile, look up Kizzy & Etties Pony Adventures. This tiny girl rides these little ponies and she gallops around and goes over huge logs up to her pony's chin. Meanwhile she giggles a lot. I love the beach video. She gallops with more aplomb than I do and is a better rider, I'm afraid. She's probably five years old. Sometimes her pony just tears around the arena at crazy angles and she just laughs and says giddyup. I find her very inspiring.

Now that the pasture is more dry, Amore brings the other horses in very reliably when I call. She anticipates that she will get brushed, treats, grazing, and a nice walk so she comes running in whenever she sees me. If I drive onto the property I hear her calling loudly right away because she knows the sound of my truck. 

Last night I did a short ride with Hero in a grassy paddock and he did very well. We worked on simple obedience with small circles and picking up the trot right away, staying in the trot until I said, and transitions. 

Today Nickel, Nala, Hero and Amore all had their teeth floated. Hero acted more adult than last year, and received praise from the vet. Last year he dug a hole and then pawed out at the vet's assistant with both front hooves when she walked by. This year he stood nicely for shots and only whinnied a couple times. 

Nickel's cut has healed so well he's already cleared for riding. Nala also saw an aggressive farrier yesterday and she was able to take off a lot of hoof and remove almost all her white line disease. She has shoes on and is also cleared for riding already. 

Just in case you think Hero does not have any great behaviors, he is very good about having his sheath cleaned. I forgot about it until after his sedation wore off, but went ahead and did it anyway. He not only doesn't try to kick, he was very clean even though I hadn't cleaned him since last year. That's a plus for me since I'm not used to having a gelding.

The vet says Amore is a good example of why people should have their horses' teeth floated every year. Some people I guess are worried the horse will not have teeth left if they get power floated. But a good vet only takes off the points and bad stuff, and doesn't take away good tooth. Amore has had a power float for the past 16 years, and still has a decent amount of wearing surface left. The wave mouth she came with because her first owner didn't keep up her teeth has been managed and the vet says that's why she can still eat just hay at 28. The vet assistant said Amore has as good of a topline as her six year old, which made me feel great. It is good to hear what I spend on her Cushing's medications and supplements are paying off. 

The vet said some horses she does have horrible abscesses and rot in their mouths and she has to wear a face mask. Poor horses.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> This photo says it all. Hero is leaning his nose against me and saying, "You're kidding me, right?" about carrying a light ten year old. That kid is riding with my normal stirrup length, and happened to wear Hero's colors to match.


That was so cute!  And when Sunsmart dinks kids around, he kind of looks at me as if to say, "And why are _you_ so heavy?" :rofl:

I've been scarce for a bit due to post-flu catchup on property maintenance etc, and will be a while, so may take time to catch up properly... I've enjoyed popping in, as always, and reading the conversation! 

Hope you all have a wonderful week! :charge:


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## gottatrot

Thanks for the hello, @SueC! Glad you are feeling better.

Great ride tonight with Hero and Nala. We went about 5 miles, in a little less than an hour. Halla and Nala used to do about 8 or 9 miles in just over an hour, but my internal metronome is resetting itself and getting used to this different pace. For a while it used to feel off, like I was out of sync.

Nala was supposed to have her hooves soaked in salt water, so we joked that this was the lazy horseman's way. Ride in the ocean for 20 minutes instead to combine exercise with hoof soaking.

The horses are so good, it's nice to recognize all the things that are major hazards for riders and see how our beach training has paid off. We went by fires, cars with loud bass, trucks doing cookies, tents, lawn chairs and buckets. It was all good.

I meant to spend time working on Hero being upset/then calm, but every time he got upset today he went to instant calm, without me working on anything. It's possible that this is due to his new magnesium supplement with thiamine, or because I've been working more with him, or a combo. We did lots of good cantering even though the sand was deep, and he did one kick out which I smacked him instantly with the crop for, and then he settled into a canter again. 

Nala had not been out for two weeks, so she was the one crow hopping a lot. 

That's not to say we didn't both almost fall off. 
The horses had been in the waves for twenty minutes, and barely flinched at even the biggest white caps coming at their legs. Suddenly, the sun shone over the waves and gleamed off a white cap and I saw Nala staring at it and saw her body turn, and thought "Oh here we go." 

Hero flipped a 180 with her, and I was quite off the saddle to one side. Somehow in a tenth of a second I imagined splashing into the cold ocean and knew exactly what that would have felt like. This gave me incentive to just try to float my body somewhere near the saddle as Hero trotted away after the spin, and eventually I settled back enough to where I could grab onto something and get onto his back. 

We do what we gotta do, right?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2018/jun/05/without-a-saddle-jockeys-incredible-bareback-ride-to-win-race-video

It was quite fun trotting fast through the waves on the way home, and Hero cantered up the big hill without bucking. Nala's rider said Nala was smoother with shoes on, because she collected herself more.


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## waresbear

My horses shine like diamonds when they get the privilege of carrying children. But they're cool like that😎


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## Knave

Nice ride!

Bones shines too @waresbear, which is almost shocking but he really has the kindest heart. I set my littlest on Cash for a moment. He looked very irritated, then later ran her out of the corral. Apparently he does not approve of children. I didn’t approve of his behavior, but I guessed there wasn’t much I was going to do about it (I wasn’t out there and he wouldn’t go after someone with me there) but make rules about going in the corral.


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## gottatrot

There's no accounting for horse opinions. Amore who is the sweetest thing toward humans and would never knowingly harm anyone, is terrible toward small animals. Dogs, cats, rats, snakes, anything small like that she will randomly bite, kick or smash if she feels like it.


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## gottatrot

I like talking about spooks that horses do. There was a conversation going about anxious horses on another thread, and it made me think about horse spooks. I've noted how Amore was special, because she had many more spooks than most horses. Most horses (in my experience), have two or three "favorite" spooks that they prefer.

We've only been around Nickel for a short time, but have ridden a few spooks. Almost every single time he drops down with both front legs. It's an easy one, and both his owner and I were pleased that this is his "go to" response. I always wonder what horses are thinking, and why they choose to spook the way they do. The only other spook we've seen from him was when he went straight up with me. That one was not exactly _hard_ to ride, but it was quite unusual so threw me for a loop. Going straight up about a foot when I wasn't expecting it meant I was suddenly falling back down into the saddle. I imagine if he had suddenly bolted I might have been left behind. Or if he'd gone backward I might have ended up on his neck. But thankfully he kept on at the same canter pace as before. 

It's hard for me to say a spook is "unrideable," because with enough practice or preparation I think most spooks can be ridden. @bsms commented on this in the other thread. I've not ridden through some severe spooks such as 360 degree spins that I have also stayed on for on other occasions. I did see my friend Cassie's horse do one spook that I could definitely say was unrideable though, because I am certain no rider on earth could have stayed on. That's because she literally went in every direction you can think of at a speed no human could follow, and the movements were large enough that even holding onto a saddle could not have kept a person on. She went down almost flat to the ground, then spun left, right, back, up, forward, I can't remember the exact sequence because it was so fast but literally there were limbs flying all over the place, as fast as a cutting horse but taking up a wider space. Everyone was just like WOW. Maybe I could compare it to if you went to sit on a mechanical bull, and the motion was the tasmanian devil. 









After a lot of practice I could ride almost every one of Amore's spooks. I think her brain was not organized enough to keep a favorite spook, and she made them up new each time. She would sometimes drop, sometimes run backward, sometimes spin left or right, sometimes shoot sideways, or leap in the air sideways, sometimes gallop in place or forward a few strides, sometimes buck, etc. 

Nala either leaps forward, or spins to one side. How far the spin goes depends on how scared she is. Halla would either veer backward (or stop dead), or leap or spin sideways. Hero either spins/leaps to one side, or gallops in place or forward one stride. One of my friend's horses would shoot backwards rapidly. 

When it comes to equitation, I personally follow three rules: 
Try not to interfere with the horse's natural movement/imbalance them or cause them pain (landing on their back heavily). 

Use good body mechanics so I won't tear apart my joints or cause injury. That means I'm going to err on the side of leaning too far forward rather than too far back.
This can hurt a person (speaking from experience). I've been leaning slightly too far back, had a horse lurch forward and the spine was in a position of weakness - I pulled a back muscle. 








This position is too far forward for most riding but as an extreme, it is safer for your body.








I think the reason we're taught not to lean forward so much, is because without the stable lower leg pictured above, the rider is very precarious and can topple over if the leg is allowed to swing back.








Your upper body can be back without harm, if you are always bending from the hips while keeping your back aligned, and the same for bending forward. I firmly believe the spine needs to stay aligned and the vertebrae stacked up, whether you're in a saddle or sitting in a chair. This guy is still balanced through his spine, unlike the leaning back english rider. I find that the pictures of western riders doing working events (not pleasure riders) usually show good body mechanics and balance.









My third thing is that I always do what is the most stable and safest. You'll see a lot of dressage riders putting only their toe in the stirrup, or keeping their lower leg tipped back behind their center of gravity. But many very good riders still use their weight in the stirrup, the stirrup at least back to the ball or midfoot, and a better core balance.








I thought it was interesting that when I first started showing, I'd follow to the letter what my instructors said such as keeping my weight in my seat and the equitation positions. Later, after I'd learned to ride more securely I'd just sit low enough to give the appearance of sitting in the saddle, but I'd still do the more secure "hover." That was when I started getting placed well or winning equitation classes, when I was cheating and only giving the appearance of riding in the saddle. That's because it made my lower leg very still, my rising trot much nicer, and my hands completely independent.

In my mind, riding spooks requires the right balance of relaxed looseness and muscle tension in the right places. You'll not stay on if you're simply a floppy rag doll. But tension is also your enemy. But if you know how a certain horse spooks, it can really pay off to adapt your riding just in case. Putting my leg forward on Halla saved me many times when she was green and would stop dead mid-canter. It also can save you if a horse tends to bolt forward or leap.
Those are my musings for the day. :smile:


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## Dragoon

I starting riding five years ago, and was dropped regularly by my gelding. His spook is to bolt off. 
I used to wonder why I didn't fall off other horses spooking. Then one day last year I had moved the mounting block to be right by the door to go in the arena. Four horses I led in that day, they all spooked when I opened the door and they saw it. My Mouse had the fastest reaction time by far, he just teleported a few feet away!

It is interesting that Amore never got less spooky. Good thing she's cute! And that you were the one that bought her! LOL 
Mouse is now 24, his spooks have gotten less, and much slower. I'm kinda sad about it, and any other sign of him slowing down. I wonder if horses get comfortable with a main rider and that's why he spooks less, or if it's just age? 

Edit to add: the Haflinger did a small startle, but stood his ground. Yeah, he'd be the first one eaten by a bear.


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> the Haflinger did a small startle, but stood his ground. Yeah, he'd be the first one eaten by a bear.


Ha ha! See, what we think is "bad," is good for horses. Amore would never get eaten.

I found this great video on how to ride safely cross country (skip the first part about helmet, vest, it gets into riding quickly).
Studying cross country was how I learned to have a secure seat. Even though we are not going over jumps, the style is what we use for rough trails or beach riding at higher speeds. This type of seat allows a person the ability to quickly maneuver around on rough footing, or sudden obstacles and to stay secure. It helps you ride through spooks, and can be used with a longer or shorter stirrup, close to the saddle or far out of it. To me the rider illustrates how just being relaxed is not necessarily the key to staying on, which is something I do hear a lot. If this rider gets too loose and floppy, he loses security and control of the horse _in this type of riding_. As @Knave said, we all have different uses and styles and horses, so we are all striving to get good at the type of riding we need. 

We can't all try to ride the same, because for example if this rider tried to give his horse a loose rein or neck rein, he'd miss the sharp turn. This is not a pattern the horse can learn, like barrel racing, so there needs to be quick communication at times. 

To me it also illustrates how riding in two point is not about simply getting strong enough to do it. If it required the strength I was initially told it does in lessons, then people would not be able to do it over long distances. What I was told was that it was basically similar to weight lifting/fast twitch/sprinting type exercise. I've learned that it is more like jogging/slow twitch/endurance type exercise. Again I compare it to skiing, with the rider balancing and using some endurance muscles rather than struggling to lift a weight with his legs. Sure, you get sore if you are not in shape for it, but that's after doing it for awhile. That's different from my legs shaking in the car on the way home after a lesson because I'd been basically "weight lifting" or sprinting with them. That's different from lactic acid building up as you use the tense muscles to hold you out of the saddle. 
It all comes down to using your leg as a unit with weight in the stirrups, along with the horse's body to support you.





^^^^I thought this guy was going to fall off a couple of times during his wild illustrations of how not to ride.


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## egrogan

My favorite spook was with Izzy years ago, at our first boarding barn. The indoor had a metal roof that was notorious for noisily letting go of the snowpack on sunny winter days. We were in the indoor, just cooling out from a lesson. There was a snow slide, and my instructor turned around to look at another rider, and when she turned back to look at me, I was standing on the ground next to Izzy. Confused, she asked- "why are you on the ground?" and I could only laugh and tell her when the snow slid, through some miracle of physics, Izzy had disappeared out from underneath me in an instant, and I landed on my feet in the space where she had been :rofl: I so wish I had video of that because it all happened so fast I truly don't understand how she did it. I imagined it looked something like:


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## Knave

Hahahaha! I loved that @egrogan! 

Riding horses bred to cut I kind of thought all spooks were fast and hard. Sometimes Bones can spook in several different directions like Gotta explained the one horse, and sometimes like Mouse he is suddenly very far away from something.

Cash jumps when he spooks, almost like he were starting to buck before deciding to run instead. Luckily he is getting to where he rarely spooks now and just looks at things. I’m starting to trust him. Yesterday I decided to let him drink out of this kiddy pool. He was not happy to go towards it, but getting braver and Ozzie (the dog) randomly jumped up and pulled the hose out of the pool spraying water up over Cash and I. I had to laugh as Cash spooked more like a cutter and we were gone. Stupid dog.

Zeus is like Nash. He is my education that some horses are actually very different. He doesn’t spook. Not really anyways.... he kind of tenses up and then thinks better of it. It is amazing and I love it! Who knew horses existed that were like him?!


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## gottatrot

That is so funny @egrogan.


Knave said:


> Riding horses bred to cut I kind of thought all spooks were fast and hard....


But that's one of the most frustrating things, when you end up in a slow, easy spook but still fall off!! That has happened to me. Like you're too prepared so mess up the easy stuff. 



Knave said:


> Zeus is like Nash. He is my education that some horses are actually very different. He doesn’t spook. Not really anyways.... he kind of tenses up and then thinks better of it. It is amazing and I love it! Who knew horses existed that were like him?!


But be careful, if a horse like Zeus spooks, it is serious. My friend's horse Brave is like that, he doesn't spook. But when he one day finally saw something worth spooking over it was massive and he just flung my friend off like a slingshot.  I've always thought the unflappable types are just saving it all up for something really grand.


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## bsms

My wife took this picture years ago when I was on Mia. There was a large moving van in front of us with men shifting stuff inside. Sounded like the van's stomach was gurgling with hunger! Australian-ish saddle with a horn. To this day, this position is what I revert to IF I have some warning. I like having a horn. With one hand on the horn, my horses cannot get my shoulders thrown back, thrown forward, or thrown to either side. Not if the horn stays on the saddle and the saddle stays on her back.








It isn't grossly different from how I ride in "neutral". I haven't played tennis in 40 years, but as I remember it, one moved left or right to take a shot and then returned closer to center. You didn't move right, take a shot, and then stand on the right of the court. Neutral to me is more like this:








We were turning, but turns need to be balanced as well. "On your pockets" does NOT mean this, although it is how it was demonstrated to me (which is why I refused to do it):








I don't have any pictures of it and I'm not sure a picture could show it anyways unless the rider was naked. It is more subtle than that. I'm guessing this lady is on her pockets in the right way:

Hmmmm....picture disappeared. It was here before: http://cookarena.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/EditedHeidiPlayerCut9.jpg

It is more a looseness of the loin and rotating the pelvis enough that it feels to me like my center of gravity would flow into my thighs versus my normal Littauer-ish way of riding with my center of gravity already in my thighs. And I don't know I'm getting it right now. It isn't like I've had any good western riding lessons. This feel is what I've been trying with Bandit on the trail. I think it could handle a mild explosion forward but not the nuclear blast some horses could provide. My horse is a conventional weapon, so to speak.

It isn't "perched", but neither is it leaning back. Looking at cutters for inspiration, you don't see much leaning back. In fact, if you do an image search, there are far more pictures of a cutter leaning forward than back.

"_I think the reason we're taught not to lean forward so much, is because without the stable lower leg pictured above, the rider is very precarious and can topple over if the leg is allowed to swing back._"

I'm convinced two point is 95% balance and no more than 5% strength. If someone is strong enough to walk, stand or run, then they ought to be able to do two point. I think many teach two point wrong, emphasizing "two point without stirrups" which requires carrying weight in the thighs and cutting it off at the knee. If you "stand in the stirrups" (or maybe crouch in the stirrups), then your weight goes into the stirrups and gravity will keep the lower leg steady.

I obviously have never tried to do it for 8 miles. Like running, it would require building up strength, but it ought to be primarily balance. The more you can do it by balance, the less strength is needed. For trotting or cantering, I find getting at least a little out of the saddle much easier on my back than trying to absorb the motion. I still need some caution with Bandit though since he sometimes stops first and consults me later. But he doesn't just spin at random. 



bsms said:


> ...I'd swear at least half of Mia's spooks were caused by Zeus deciding to entertain the crowd of Greek gods on Mount Olympus by tossing a lightning bolt at her rump!...Zeus just finds some horses more entertaining than others...


I guess Zeus just doesn't like popping Bandit in the butt with a lightning bolt as much as he did with Mia. And I'm content not providing the gods of Mount Olympus so much entertainment...

PS: Is it just me or are people getting more unwilling to just share a picture on the Internet. I miss being able to find a good picture and share it under "Fair Use" rules of discussion. Same with video. Darn it, if you post something on the Internet, you should accept the idea that others may share it for non-profit discussion of some aspect. :evil:


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## bsms

BTW - why would a rider miss a turn because of neck reining? Polo players do lots of turns, need a precise position to hit the ball, but ride with one hand. When I have problems steering Bandit with one hand it is because he is used to thinking independently and making a lot of decisions for me. He then can get annoyed if I try to tell him to do something else because I want a particular angle for a picture. I agree a loose rein isn't good for frequent changes of direction. But Bandit can steer just fine with one hand, including when scared. Unless he is giving me the Middle Hoof Salute. Which...is one of his favorite gestures...


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## Knave

gottatrot;1970744753
But be careful said:


> I kind of wonder what will happen if Zeus were to decide to misbehave. He is just so good natured, but I do think he is extremely smart and tough, and he is more athletic than one would assume. So, with all his good qualities, wouldn’t it be something terrible for him to use them against someone?
> 
> I get what you are saying about saving it up. To me I guess I think if you aren’t having little worries that you come down from, you might not know how to come down once you do find a worry.
> 
> In any case, I’m sure Zeus will do something coltish one of these days, but I hope I never do see him intentionally misbehave. I am not sure I could handle it. I think he’s much smarter than I am, and I haven’t seen a single horse able to change his mind about anything. They have drug Zeus to the ground before, but Zeus doesn’t give. No one will ask him to now. I wonder if it embarrasses them to be unable to move a little horse. Lol


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## gottatrot

@Knave, I was kind of joking about a horse storing it up. I wasn't really thinking of tension building, but more about how sometimes inexperienced people are super surprised when a calm horse actually spooks. But I do think there are horses that are just so confident they're never going to have a bad spook. The "world conqueror" types. If any horse is like that, it's Zeus. 



bsms said:


> BTW - why would a rider miss a turn because of neck reining? Polo players do lots of turns, need a precise position to hit the ball, but ride with one hand.


You're exactly right. It's the same with working equitation, sharp turns and neck reining. I'll change my statement to: "The horses _I've _ridden would miss the jumps if we tried to neck rein."
I'll say that's because no one trained them to work at speed in response to one hand on the reins.


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## bsms

^^ Beautiful riding! Very "Not Bandit & I", but there is nothing wrong with being in awe of what others can do!


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## waresbear

This exercise was tough! Really makes you arc the horse so you can keep the pole on top of the barrel, no room for error as you can see me screw up at the end of the video. My coach used to come up with all sorts of cool stuff like this. She's retired now so my lessons to myself, post without stirrups, 2 point sans irons, if I do Western, reining patterns without stirrups, ground poles with no tack, just a neck rope. With one of my horses it's not too bad, with my hotter horse, it takes a lot of concentration and preciseness.


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## Knave

Very cool waresbear!


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## phantomhorse13

Just wanted to comment on what a saint the horse in the eventing vid @gottatrot shared is!!

@*waresbear* : your video is amazing. I suspect if I tried to do that with Phin, I would first get to experience every spook one could imagine, and then wind up skewered..


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## waresbear

Phantomhorse13 Otis spooked and jumped sideways more than a few times when we first started doing this, luckily for me, I just dropped the poll and hung on!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Working equitation is pretty amazing, it isnt something I could do. I played with garrocha pole while in the states, doing the turns and twist was surprisingly harder than I expected. I rode a PRE who is switching from dressage to working equitation because dressage is boring for him and the collected work is too demanding and hard on his joints. Working equitation collected is less hard on them that way, higher level dressage is super hard on the horse's body and this PRE would be bored out of his mind with the low level stuff. He really feels on a 20m circles like Oh God not another freaking circle, are you kidding me. The working equitation seems to be good for him.

waresbear- it look really good, that garracha pole is harder than it looks. 

I think with eventing we also use two reins because quite frankly at the higher levels, if you dont get the angle or get the horse just right to the fence, it can result in a rotational fall or death of both. I think part of why they ride two reins too is a lot of event horses at the high levels are really special personalities. MUCH MUCH hotter than a polo pony, I cant speak for working equitation but they're definitely stronger than those ones. I think they'd work out the one rein thing and just take over and do whatever they please. Some of those horses are REALLY REALLY tough and REALLY strong, quick thinking horses with their own minds. A good cross country horse should not solely rely on the rider but be able to navigate an obstacle alongside a rider. They have to think for themselves a bit but still LISTEN. 

I wish more people could sit on a proper event horse, that is a place for very special minded horses. I really think too many people have not sat on or experience a horse that really thinks for itself. I think a lot of people would wake up when they realize a horse is not a machine where you just put in the right code and suddenly it's perfect or when they realize a rider/handler is not God who has all the power in the world to make a horse what they want it to be. Horses have their own minds and ways of being, I think a lot of people are blind and arrogant thinking they can control a horse and all problems are rider/handler error. I hear that, I'm like clearly that person has no experience. Sorry slight rant but one pet peeve of mine is people who think a horse is like a machine where a rider or handler just puts in the perfect coding sequence and like magic the horse is perfect and they can mold a horse to be whatever they want, it just doesnt work like that.

I know Mary King, olympic event rider, absolutely amazing rider gave up a ride on a horse because it was too strong and was a dangerous combination for her. 

As for shared videos, I'll also say a lot of professionals do not share their schooling videos for a reason. There are always critics who think they know it all, without understanding the situation, horse or anything but their own opinions. I think a lot can be learned from video and photos but a lot of people simply wont show anything unless it is close to perfect because arm chair critics with little experience bash without understanding.


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## gottatrot

@waresbear, that video was great! Looks super hard. 



DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think a lot of people would wake up when they realize a horse is not a machine where you just put in the right code and suddenly it's perfect or when they realize a rider/handler is not God who has all the power in the world to make a horse what they want it to be. Horses have their own minds and ways of being, I think a lot of people are blind and arrogant thinking they can control a horse and all problems are rider/handler error. I hear that, I'm like clearly that person has no experience. Sorry slight rant but one pet peeve of mine is people who think a horse is like a machine where a rider or handler just puts in the perfect coding sequence and like magic the horse is perfect and they can mold a horse to be whatever they want, it just doesnt work like that.


It would be nice if that were the case! No, actually it wouldn't, because then horses would just be machines. We'd miss out on all the nuances of their individual personalities.

I've been realizing lately that something has changed with Hero and I, in the past several weeks. It's a little bit difficult to categorize, but I think we're going to make better progress now. You might say he's shown me everything he's got, and it's made me feel that I have an understanding of his reactions. 

It's hard to explain, but I've been through this with all three of my horses. You don't know at first the extent of all their reactions. To be safe, you don't push at certain times because you don't want to go too far. There's always this nagging insecurity because you're not sure how far this horse can go. For example, if Hero reared and I scared him, would he flip over? If he got really upset when another horse left him behind, would he explode or fall down? Etc.

I've been riding Hero for about a year and a half, so it's almost surprising to notice this change. But even though it's taken a very long time, I think he is finally starting to really listen to me. It reminds me of my Papillon, which people say they are great dogs but terrible puppies. I remember saying Gilligan this and Gilligan that and his eyes were just glazed and inattentive. A day or two after his first birthday, I said "Gilligan" and he looked into my eyes and focused like "Yes? What did you want?" Before that it was all noise to him. 

Hero must have tried to bite (or bite) me a couple hundred times at least, and received a reprimand. Whatever I did seemed ineffective. Except now he doesn't try to bite me. Sometimes if he's really upset he'll flap his lips at me or move his mouth toward me, and then if I wave my hand he'll overreact and be very contrite. He's stopped threatening to kick me. He's letting me groom him and come in close and put my hand over his head and nose, and sometimes he looks in my eye and it's a very sweet look. 

People say the horse has to respect you or you need to dominate the horse. I was thinking today that it's more like the folklore about naming, or knowing the true name of something. In one fiction book I read, if you knew the true name of something you had power over it, and that was because you understood all the properties of whatever it was; if it was a person, you understood their emotions and motivations and all about them. Even though it's been quite a long process, I'm beginning to understand more of the bigger picture of Hero. 

If he gets really upset, he (like most horses) wants to trust that I will be bigger than that. Bigger than his bucking or panicking or rearing. He wants me to tell him what is up, and then to take comfort from that. That is really hard to do, even if you're extremely confident and secure and think you're willing to risk whatever. There's still a small part of you that is waiting for the really bad thing to happen. 

But the past several weeks, I've seen how if I am truly "above" what is happening, it makes a big difference. For example, on the beach the other day something was really scary and Hero got really tight, scrambly and started leaping around under me. I just said "It's fine," whopped him one smack with the crop, and he was literally calm within 5 seconds and back into a nice walk. But I actually felt deep down that it _was_ fine, and he knew that. It's not as simple as "confidence," but you actually have to know the horse well enough to get there.

Yesterday I was pushing him to do very adult horse things in the field, riding in small circles with some lateral movement, fast transitions, and backing. A loud car went by while his brain was engaged, and so he felt overwhelmed and reared. I leaned forward, looked him in the eye, and very slowly bopped him on the cheek, which he thought being whapped on the face was a severe reprimand. Five seconds later he was back into the work, focusing and calm. I felt comfortable pushing him back up to see if he would reach that point again, but he didn't. He didn't want to get face bopped again. 

And I don't think it's what I'm doing, but what is different is that he is thinking about how what he is doing is creating a response from me, so he is not just reacting and thinking I am just flying along with him, but instead has gained the focus to relate my reaction to his actions. Like most horses, he does want to please, so he is beginning to pull himself out of his emotions and changing behaviors based on my feedback. As long as I was even a little fazed by his behaviors, he was not able to join me in calm analytical space. Suddenly, I'm seeing his eye, and his thoughts, and he's processing things along with me. 

I really believe it's not just about being a strong leader, or getting a horse's respect. You have to know the horse, and sometimes the horse has to know your name too. Trust can take a very long time. And even if they trust you, they might know that you can't quite trust their responses at times, and that you're being wary and safe. Which you absolutely have to do so there's just no short cut. That's why I believe a partnership can need to develop over a long time with a horse, especially if the horse has had previous experiences with other riders and trainers where they've been let down. 

Something about Hero's "true name" is that he is a bit like that hysterical woman in the old movies. It's so politically incorrect now, but they used to say "Get a hold of yourself!" and slap someone across the face. Honestly, it sounds silly but Hero is like that. He panics, I say "Get a hold of yourself!" with a smack, and then he does.


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## Dragoon

Ive read that book, loved it. The Name of the Wind.

I like your concept of truly knowing the horse, but am sad to realize I may never know my gelding's true name. He is old now, and had a whole lifetime of riding experience before ever coming here eight years ago. I only came along five years ago, and all we do is arena ride. There are no trails here near the city and I don't have means to trailer anywhere. So our relationship is not tested the way yours and Hero's is. 
At 24, he is beyond the age of most disciplines...and I suspect he has done it all at some point. I have little to teach him, but he has much to teach me! Perhaps he knows MY name...
I took a handful of dressage lessons, and while I was awful to the point of being yelled at, Mouse got nothing but praise for how he stepped out. Of course he's better at riding than me, he's been doing it four times longer, LOL!


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## bsms

Dragoon said:


> ...I have little to teach him, but he has much to teach me! Perhaps he knows MY name...


A wonderful and perceptive approach to riding! 

I get uncomfortable with competition involving horses. Littauer's phrase about artificial solutions to artificial problems comes to mind. By the 70s, Littauer seemed very uncomfortable with what competition had done to jumping. Approaching 2020, I'm uncomfortable with most high level competition. We humans ruin things.


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## Knave

Gotta, I actually know exactly what you mean. It would be hard to explain; you did a good job. There is a point though where I know I can handle a horse. Before that magic happens I am leery. I don’t know what the horse will do in certain situations and I am careful and held back. One day you suddenly know. You know you can ride that horse because you know the horse now.

Cash and I are verging that point now. I find myself doing things that I would have worried about before. The only hold back for me from completely being there is going outside doing working things alone. I know I can ride him alone from here to somewhere and he won’t get lonely. I am almost certain it would be that way at work, but I haven’t done it yet. I have gone away from everyone of course, but not out of sight. I think he won’t mind, but I’ve had enough horses panic in that situation that it leaves me leery until I’ve actually done it.

I have reached that point here though. We do scary things and I trust him and he does me too now. 
@Dragoon I think Mouse does know your name. I think probably you know his name too. Old broke horses seem easier to find that magical spot with, so that maybe it goes unnoticed. The way you talk about Mouse I think you definitely know him in that way. After all, you put kids on him! You couldn’t do that if you didn’t trust him.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, I think you and Cash are going to be great partners.



Knave said:


> @Dragoon I think Mouse does know your name. I think probably you know his name too. Old broke horses seem easier to find that magical spot with, so that maybe it goes unnoticed. The way you talk about Mouse I think you definitely know him in that way.


 @Dragoon, that's great you read that book so you know what I was talking about with the names. It's not a new concept with that author either, and I've read similar things in other books like the Hobbit. Also there are a lot of things about names, the meaning of names and changing names in the Bible. 

Since your horse is teaching you, there is obviously communication and a relationship. Even how he teaches you is part of his name I think. If he's patient or only up to a point, how he lets you know things are right are wrong, etc.


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## DanteDressageNerd

gottatrot said:


> It would be nice if that were the case! No, actually it wouldn't, because then horses would just be machines. We'd miss out on all the nuances of their individual personalities.
> 
> I've been realizing lately that something has changed with Hero and I, in the past several weeks. It's a little bit difficult to categorize, but I think we're going to make better progress now. You might say he's shown me everything he's got, and it's made me feel that I have an understanding of his reactions.
> 
> It's hard to explain, but I've been through this with all three of my horses. You don't know at first the extent of all their reactions. To be safe, you don't push at certain times because you don't want to go too far. There's always this nagging insecurity because you're not sure how far this horse can go. For example, if Hero reared and I scared him, would he flip over? If he got really upset when another horse left him behind, would he explode or fall down? Etc.
> 
> I've been riding Hero for about a year and a half, so it's almost surprising to notice this change. But even though it's taken a very long time, I think he is finally starting to really listen to me. It reminds me of my Papillon, which people say they are great dogs but terrible puppies. I remember saying Gilligan this and Gilligan that and his eyes were just glazed and inattentive. A day or two after his first birthday, I said "Gilligan" and he looked into my eyes and focused like "Yes? What did you want?" Before that it was all noise to him.
> 
> Hero must have tried to bite (or bite) me a couple hundred times at least, and received a reprimand. Whatever I did seemed ineffective. Except now he doesn't try to bite me. Sometimes if he's really upset he'll flap his lips at me or move his mouth toward me, and then if I wave my hand he'll overreact and be very contrite. He's stopped threatening to kick me. He's letting me groom him and come in close and put my hand over his head and nose, and sometimes he looks in my eye and it's a very sweet look.
> 
> People say the horse has to respect you or you need to dominate the horse. I was thinking today that it's more like the folklore about naming, or knowing the true name of something. In one fiction book I read, if you knew the true name of something you had power over it, and that was because you understood all the properties of whatever it was; if it was a person, you understood their emotions and motivations and all about them. Even though it's been quite a long process, I'm beginning to understand more of the bigger picture of Hero.
> 
> If he gets really upset, he (like most horses) wants to trust that I will be bigger than that. Bigger than his bucking or panicking or rearing. He wants me to tell him what is up, and then to take comfort from that. That is really hard to do, even if you're extremely confident and secure and think you're willing to risk whatever. There's still a small part of you that is waiting for the really bad thing to happen.
> 
> But the past several weeks, I've seen how if I am truly "above" what is happening, it makes a big difference. For example, on the beach the other day something was really scary and Hero got really tight, scrambly and started leaping around under me. I just said "It's fine," whopped him one smack with the crop, and he was literally calm within 5 seconds and back into a nice walk. But I actually felt deep down that it _was_ fine, and he knew that. It's not as simple as "confidence," but you actually have to know the horse well enough to get there.
> 
> Yesterday I was pushing him to do very adult horse things in the field, riding in small circles with some lateral movement, fast transitions, and backing. A loud car went by while his brain was engaged, and so he felt overwhelmed and reared. I leaned forward, looked him in the eye, and very slowly bopped him on the cheek, which he thought being whapped on the face was a severe reprimand. Five seconds later he was back into the work, focusing and calm. I felt comfortable pushing him back up to see if he would reach that point again, but he didn't. He didn't want to get face bopped again.
> 
> And I don't think it's what I'm doing, but what is different is that he is thinking about how what he is doing is creating a response from me, so he is not just reacting and thinking I am just flying along with him, but instead has gained the focus to relate my reaction to his actions. Like most horses, he does want to please, so he is beginning to pull himself out of his emotions and changing behaviors based on my feedback. As long as I was even a little fazed by his behaviors, he was not able to join me in calm analytical space. Suddenly, I'm seeing his eye, and his thoughts, and he's processing things along with me.
> 
> I really believe it's not just about being a strong leader, or getting a horse's respect. You have to know the horse, and sometimes the horse has to know your name too. Trust can take a very long time. And even if they trust you, they might know that you can't quite trust their responses at times, and that you're being wary and safe. Which you absolutely have to do so there's just no short cut. That's why I believe a partnership can need to develop over a long time with a horse, especially if the horse has had previous experiences with other riders and trainers where they've been let down.
> 
> Something about Hero's "true name" is that he is a bit like that hysterical woman in the old movies. It's so politically incorrect now, but they used to say "Get a hold of yourself!" and slap someone across the face. Honestly, it sounds silly but Hero is like that. He panics, I say "Get a hold of yourself!" with a smack, and then he does.


Gottatrot- I really like your thoughts and insight, it makes me think. And I really respect that you take on unconventional difficult horses so you get it. And I think that sort of knowledge is something I respect in a horseman above all else. Horses have their own identity and ways of being, there isnt a one size fits all methodology that works and I think with experience and riding a variety of different horses, as well as unconventional horses you really get an education that I think most trainers and people severely lack. 

I think some horses it takes longer, if ever to let a rider into their mind and let the rider ride them. If Hero has an unknown background and you got him from a rescue, if he was mistreated or ran around without skill I could see where he lacks trust. I know I've ridden horses from lesson programs that really have to be convinced to let you into their mind and to influence their body. Worse if they were psychologically mistreated, then it's like sometimes they let you in but then if something happens they go to a purely reactionary place and you cant reach them. But that's amazing that now he is reaching to you when he is unsure or nervous, rather than reacting! 

But I agree horses like Hero, you cant just MAKE them or bully them or fight them for respect or dominance. It's like a hand in hand process where yes you'll get some ugly moments and they'll challenge you and at moments it's dangerous but you keep going step by step, correcting the bad behavior and directing them towards the behavior you want and accept them, rather than trying to make them into something they arent just being patient and guiding. 

I think special and unique horses just take more time to figure out and get on your side, I also think as a rider/handler we have to accept we'll never be in total control but we learn to trust each other more. But when you get these horses on your side, no horse will try harder or show more heart. I think when you have an unconventional horse, people just assume it's because you're doing something wrong or dont understand what you are doing to reach a horse or that there are extra steps in training. A lot of trainers throw these horses away because they're too much work, take too much time and they dont have the emotional sensitivity. I think a horse like Hero needs you and needs someone who listens and at the same time says look I get it but you still need to listen and be here with me. I really think people are so judgmental with an unconventional horse because there are so few of them. So those people lack the experience to understand the horse has a mind of its own. And have not truly encountered a unique horse and a lot of times peoples trainers havent truly encountered a one of kind type of horse either. And it makes the journey hard but when you make head way, it is so rewarding. 

Point being I think when you have an unconventional horse you learn something unspoken in each other, maybe that is their name? Im not sure I understand but I think for example Wonder is very loyal to me. I dont know if I know his name but I can reach his "radio station" and he listens when I engage him vs some other people he closes off his radio signal. He will do a lot for me, he still voices his opinions and will tell me to F off. Im also sure Hero will do a lot for you that he wouldnt do for anyone else.

A natural horsemanship trainer taught me, when we engage with a horse. We need to show them we are different and open up communication using energy and the mind to communicate. It isnt just pressing buttons or something physical but all riding and horsemanship begins with the mind and communicating to the horse that we are different, that we hear them and wish for them to begin emotionally and mentally before an aid become physical. If that makes sense but that sort of what knowing the true name meant to me.

I'll also say in regards to upper level competition horses, a lot of those horses dont have room in this world without being that level of horse because they have an intensity and drive that they need a job and purpose every day with someone who can handle that kind of horse. My horse for example couldnt just be a trail horse or something you just hack out. He isnt happy just sitting in a field eating grass, he needs a job. A trainer of mine who used to ride in the UK knew a mare who was only happy when working, even sat in a field eating grass she wasnt happy but the work made her relax and find peace. 

I think it's like a difference between say a border collie who NEEDS a job or behaves badly vs a lab or greyhound who is totally happy being a couch dog. Some horses and people are the same, they NEED a job and hard work. Not all horses are happy being trail horses and quite honestly a lot of those high level competition horses are so well treated and well managed but the horse's are really difficult (not all but more common to find unconventional horses at the top than the bottom). They're often the horses who'd be put down in most other situations because they are too much and are dangerous in the wrong hands. I know my horse would rotate homes until he ends up at a slaughter house. His behavior gets SO bad if he isnt properly managed or ridden by very experienced, tactful riders every ride. I can put anyone on him at a walk but trot or canter that rider HAS to know what they're doing or he decides he doesnt steer or brake anymore. Every test he gives is testing whether or not he respects you enough to listen. If a rider/handler became aggressive with him and tried to dominate, there is a lot of aggression in his personality that would come out. 

I think gottatrot knows this very well but with certain horses they have different behavioral characteristics based on what you nurse in them and the energy you carry in yourself, as well as what behavior you correct. And some horses behave very badly, if they dont have a direction for all their mental and physical energy. It kinda reminds me of a border collie or german shepherd. 

I think competition has it's place and some of the horses at the top levels need that space, else no one would work with them. Like my trainer explained to her clients that I tolerate all of Wonder's attitude, difficulty and problems because he is so talented. I also love him and couldn't live with him ending up at slaughter or euthanized because that's what happens to horses like him. My friends in Denmark who have done high level competition have told me, Wonder is the sort of horse you dont pull out in front of any client because then people think you dont know what youre doing but then when you pull them out at GP everyone goes oh who is that? That's a cool horse. And that's what pros do when they see a talented horse who is unconventional, they wait a long time before they show them in public. My point being without competition, where do these horse go? And where do they end up? People say competition is bad but it makes a space for horses people wouldnt tolerate, unless they had talent and they end up in the right hands.


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## bsms

Without competition, a lot of horses would go away. One way or another.

88% of land in Nevada is publicly owned. 75% in Utah. 60% in Oregon, and around 55% in Arizona and Wyoming. Those include state and federal land. Federal only is smaller:








It is hard for me to comprehend places where riding is restricted by private land. It is also hard for me to comprehend horses bred for a specific sport. I'll admit I don't really like the practice. OTOH, that is what has GIVEN us the modern horse! There would be no Arabians or Quarter Horses or Appies if humans didn't breed for specific goals. So...where to draw the line?

And here is a question: Is @gottatrot drawn to special horses, or does gotttrot CREATE "special horses"? Bandit's previous owner viewed him as a fairly submissive horse. You had to be ready to beat him past things at times, and ride out the bucking fits, but if you did...he'd submit and go. Bandit was always on edge when I got him, even just hanging out with other horses. It isn't just his body that has changed in the last 4 years. He still spins up emotionally sometimes, but only for what seems good reason to him.

Part of me - and this is heresy on HF - would like to get out of horses. Now that it is just my wife & I, finding someone to take care of them if we go somewhere for 4 days is tough. I'd pay good for it but no one wants the job. But Trooper & Cowboy are 20+. Who would want them? And while Bandit is 11, he's gotten used to having a vote. But honestly? Lots of people want horses who do NOT think. Who have no vote. ATVs with legs. Point and go horses, which Bandit is not. Not now.

If horses could choose their sports, I'd be happier with horse sports. Too many are required to do a given sport and that makes me sad. The idea which I've seen often enough on HF: "_He has 23 hours a day to do what he wants. This is MY hour. He OWES me!_"

I find the entire lesson horse thing appalling. As done here, horses move around in endless circles, trotting or turning and always expected to give total obedience while riders learn the horse has no say in anything. It seems a horrible way to train riders and a horrible way to treat horses. When I took lessons, it was 100% about the rider and 0% about the horse.

We teach people to ride like that and then wonder why they do. I suspect there are a LOT of special horses out there, a lot of "unconventional horses", but they are required to put on an act. Some tolerate needing to act better than others. And of course, since we breed horses to be submissive, we probably have a lot of naturally submissive horses.


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## Knave

Isn’t that everyone’s fear @bsms? We fear we are the cause of some issue our horse is having. Even when we logically know, like I know with Bones and his self-mutilation, that it has nothing to do with us, we wonder.

Gotta works consistently to try training which minimizes the difficult behavior. It’s not to make a horse with no choice, but to make a relaxed horse willing to work as a team. A horse who is bucking or showing some sort of stressed behavior is helped by learning to relax. 

I am a very nervous person. Anxiety rolls into me like the hottest horse. It’s not fun and I don’t like it. I work to control it and am not often successful, oh maybe outwardly I seem calm, but I am mostly nervous. Bones is like me. He has been better than I at successfully overcoming it in most situations.

In teaching him to deal with his anxiety, I would hope I became more like his therapist for a time frame. I didn’t want him to become an atv, but I did want him to be able to process life in a healthy way. 

On another note, horses bred for something tend to crave that thing. Put a cow in front of Bones and he lights up, everything in him coils and he is pure excitement and athleticism. Like a border collie dog (at least the ones I know bred to work), he needs his job. I imagine it is hard to have a happy border collie if they are not working livestock.


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## bsms

I think I wasn't clear. I think gottatrot MAKES "special horses" because she brings out their inner nature. I think Mia would have been a "special horse" regardless of who rode her, but what she taught me has made Bandit somewhat "special". When we allow a horse choices and try to find what matters to the horse, the horse becomes free to be who he is. But along that path, there will be symptoms of tension showing up in many horses. Emotions they were punished for before that they then need to learn to control themselves.

In another thread I read today, the idea was expressed that if your horse bucked in response to spurs, you should punish that intolerable behavior. I understand not making that behavior profitable, but I also think we ought to ask WHY the horse is reacting that way - and look to ourselves and our "requirements" first. Given the scars on Trooper's sides, I have no idea how to train him to using spurs. Nor do I see any need. I'm not saying spurs are wrong, but I find the idea that every horse needs to know how to be ridden in them very strange.

The idea that spurs are needed to make a horse soft is foreign to me. Maybe I don't have the right experience. I think UNDERSTANDING and WILLINGNESS makes a horse soft. I have no objection to spurs but do object to the idea that every horse needs to be ridden in them.

When my horse understands what I want and why I want it, he is very soft. Instinctive, even. We obviously don't achieve that goal all the time, and I prefer Bandit giving me the Middle Hoof Salute when he wants over softness anyways. And he obliges! :Angel:

I think there are a LOT of special horses, waiting to find a rider who will allow them to be special. A skilled rider may do that while doing dressage or reining or trail riding, although I think the latter matches most horses inner nature easier.

We should try to make special horses. Not treat special as bad.


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## Knave

I get it now! Sorry for the misunderstanding @bsms. I thought you used the “special” horse as almost a negative. Like Bones is “special” because he has a neurological condition. People insult me by calling him “special” often. So, my panties twist easily with that word.

Isn’t it dumb how when you are insulted it can change the whole meaning of a word? I know special is a good thing, and when I use that word I mean it as defined, and yet when someone else uses it I hear it in the way it has been used around me.


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## DanteDressageNerd

BSMS- I like your point of maybe these horses seem special because they are allowed a voice and not shut down. 

I think some horses dont tolerate attempts to make them shut down, submit and bow theirs heads of submission. Mine does not, even when you are reasonable sometimes he acts out in ways that may be considered dangerous. His no is usually a loud response because he has a mind of his own and acts on it, unfortunately he cant be stopped once he's decided what he is going to do. I havent met a person who can, I think that is his spirit and who he is. You cant make him obedient, unless he decides to be. But I also dont think that's safe or ideal to have a horse like that. I dont think it is okay behavior but it's not really something that can just be stopped. It's how he expresses himself. I think his F** you button would be much worse with someone who tried to bully or pressure him. I have no doubt he would rear and flip on someone or would become a very aggressive, hostile horse. He needs a voice, with a voice his behavior is MUCH better. Not perfect but he is kind but he also cant be allowed to get away with certain behaviors else he is dangerous and not safe to ride. Cant just throw the reins away and expect him to walk, trot, canter around or he refuses to steer or brake at all. He just does whatever he wants, thinks whoever is on his back is an idiot and unworthy of respect and then he becomes hostile on the ground. So he has to kept in line but also respected. It's a fine line.

I think there is a really good point in your message, why do we train horses to submit and shut down. A lot of riders and trainers do trying to force submission, rather than having a conversation with the horse. gottatrot has a conversation with the horse, so they start to show their true selves and feel safe in being able to have a voice and safe in having their own personality. But I also think some horses are so distinctly their own personality and self that the agreement you receive from them is because they agree to it and you cannot mold those horses into whatever you want because that is who they are.

I remember the horses in Germany and the ones we received from Germany were quite shut down and didnt display much personality for a while. It felt almost like they were robots programmed to do a job and didnt connect mentally when you rode them. It was like they had mentally shut down from being programmed to be what they were trained to be. As months went along they developed more personality and came out of their shell. I dont think they ever had especially quirky or difficult behavior. Just more personality. One went to a trainer I dont like at all and came back mentally scarred. SUPER spooky and scared of everything. Scared of a rider's leg and it was really sad because he was such an AA friendly, sweet, anyone could hop on kind of guy to absolutely meltdowns and panic attacks. He was sort of worked through on that but he'll never be the same.

But I also think there is a fine line of safe and good to work with, as well as being fair. Sometimes you do have to have an argument or discussion and it isnt pretty. Horses allowed to get away with too much tend to act out like a spoiled child when they're told they cant just do whatever they want and need to listen. I think the respect goes both ways of the horse feeling like it has an identity and has respect, along with being respectful and good to the rider/handler. 

When I used to help raise foals, as well as handle colts and stallions. I had to be VERY VERY strict with my handling and management of those horses because a small mistake like missing a glance from their eye could result in them striking me in the head or ripping my face off. The foals werent like that but needed a clear, strict system of behavior then they were fairly easy. But with the studs if I missed it happening by microseconds because the timing of each correction has to be SO quick and SO escalated. Or they'll get you and it has to be EVERY time they give a look like that or the behavior becomes worse. Some horses have to be that carefully managed and cant be given a voice because then they are dangerous. 

Knave-I agree. Sometimes we blame ourselves but we cant stop everything, we just do our best because we love our horses. Bones is lucky to have you, I think he knows it too. Horses like that need someone who love and understand them. Then they thrive. What humans and animals work well together and how they pair together fascinates me.


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## bsms

Mia needed a rider who would sometimes go toe to hoof with her. Not to beat her into submission, which wasn't happening. But to make it clear the RIDER would not be cowed into submission either. She was also a much hotter horse than Bandit.

Where I ride, Bandit is much safer. Much closer to my skill level too. From today's entry on my journal:



bsms said:


> ...Sometimes a horse's problem is like a cactus spine under the skin. You may not be able to see it but it is causing pain. And sometimes you just need to persist until the spine gets close to the surface. Then you can remove it, or maybe a blister will form and pop. When it comes to the surface, you are healing. You can't heal until it comes out in the open.
> 
> Some horse bad habits are like that. They fester away underneath. They cause inner tension. Given some freedom, the bad thing will come to the surface. And then it may look ugly. But it is healing. You don't take an axe to a blister. At the most you use a needle. Then you give it time to heal...


Bandit was incredibly tense when he got here. I was told he loved racing other horses. I honestly don't think he did. I'm sure he can be competitive. Mia sure as heck could be! But I think Bandit was responding the way Cowboy does if you put him in a round pen. He acts the way he is expected to act (like a puppy dog) because it is the only way he gets relief. I think Bandit mostly raced because he had to. But I think he prefers hiking. He sure as heck is relaxed and receptive in a way he wasn't when he came.

Bucking is something we worked thru. Although he may buck tomorrow. The ultimate goal is to teach him more productive ways to express himself. But once a horse knows how to buck, they will always know. IMHO.


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## knightrider

From Gottatrot


> It's not as simple as "confidence," but you actually have to know the horse well enough to get there.


I love this discussion. You guys are the best! Thank you all for your intelligent thoughts and sharing.


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## gottatrot

Really great stuff!


DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think special and unique horses just take more time to figure out and get on your side, I also think as a rider/handler we have to accept we'll never be in total control but we learn to trust each other more. But when you get these horses on your side, no horse will try harder or show more heart. I think when you have an unconventional horse, people just assume it's because you're doing something wrong or don't understand what you are doing to reach a horse or that there are extra steps in training. A lot of trainers throw these horses away because they're too much work, take too much time and they don't have the emotional sensitivity.





bsms said:


> I think there are a LOT of special horses, waiting to find a rider who will allow them to be special. A skilled rider may do that while doing dressage or reining or trail riding, although I think the latter matches most horses inner nature easier.
> 
> We should try to make special horses. Not treat special as bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Sometimes a horse's problem is like a cactus spine under the skin. You may not be able to see it but it is causing pain. And sometimes you just need to persist until the spine gets close to the surface. Then you can remove it, or maybe a blister will form and pop. When it comes to the surface, you are healing. You can't heal until it comes out in the open.
> 
> Some horse bad habits are like that. They fester away underneath. They cause inner tension. Given some freedom, the bad thing will come to the surface. And then it may look ugly. But it is healing. You don't take an axe to a blister. At the most you use a needle. Then you give it time to heal...
Click to expand...

I really like that about the festering cactus. I do think that's a good description of why things get ugly sometimes. Some horses could sit in a field and it would be fine if you barely handled them. 

Definitely I create special horses, and I think I could say that in either a negative type way or positive. Meaning, Amore was doing fine not being used. The woman who sold her to me was doubtful about my training her. She suggested using her as a broodmare. So my attempting to train a horse that spooky and reactive created issues. 

Halla was not really doing fine not being used, because she had the scars to show how pulling back and not being able to get caught had affected the times they had needed to handle her. Plus her energy was too much to not have a regular job.
Hero was not really doing fine either, since his body showed how not getting work with slipping stifles was affecting him. 

But if you never work with the horse, you never deal with their issues, and if they never get fit, you don't deal with high energy levels. 



DanteDressageNerd said:


> ...I think some horses dont tolerate attempts to make them shut down, submit and bow theirs heads of submission. Mine does not, even when you are reasonable sometimes he acts out in ways that may be considered dangerous....
> ...So he has to kept in line but also respected. It's a fine line....
> 
> ...I think there is a really good point in your message, why do we train horses to submit and shut down...
> ...I remember the horses in Germany and the ones we received from Germany were quite shut down and didnt display much personality for a while. It felt almost like they were robots programmed to do a job and didnt connect mentally when you rode them. It was like they had mentally shut down from being programmed to be what they were trained to be....


That is something I've run across a couple of times and frankly those horses make me very uncomfortable. If there is no communication and the horse just accepts what the rider says, for one thing I am waiting for something that will cause the horse to suddenly "show up," if they get scared enough or pushed enough. But then you have no idea what the reaction will be, because you don't really know the horse at all. 



DanteDressageNerd said:


> Knave-I agree. Sometimes we blame ourselves but we cant stop everything, we just do our best because we love our horses. Bones is lucky to have you, I think he knows it too. Horses like that need someone who love and understand them. Then they thrive. *What humans and animals work well together and how they pair together fascinates me.*


A few years ago I would also have taken the comment about "making" special horses and been insecure about it for awhile. It took me quite a lot of testing and inner struggle to feel comfortable. That's not to say I don't still question everything constantly. But like @DanteDressageNerd said, so many people observe the horse you are working with and assume you are either skipping steps, are training improperly, or you're nervous, or pushing the horse too fast...etc.

When you have experienced people telling you while observing you from atop their calm horses, that you must have missed something or done something wrong, a smart person wants to believe it. Of course your first thought is that no, you have done your best. But then you'll question. 

Like my friend with her super hot horse, who was advised by many. She actually tried only letting the horse walk for an entire year on rides. I asked her how that was doing with calming her horse. She said it worked great, as long as she only walked. :smile:

Back when I believed in training steps and missing steps, and thought that maybe a horse was hot just because I'd overfaced them by letting them move out too soon on the trails, I actually restarted Halla three times. I just don't believe that anymore. If you have a horse that gets worked up in certain situations, you honestly just need to practice those situations. Working on other things doesn't necessarily help those situations.

There are things that need to come in progression, like you need to steer at the walk before you run. But I don't think any of us need to think that our horse is acting up because we didn't follow a prescribed formula in the right order when they were started in training. Training some horses with easy minds helped me understand this. They make it seem like a formula is working, and that there is something wrong with atypical horses. But it's actually not the formula, but those easy horses could have a dozen different methods or order of training and still turn out fine. 

And when it comes to competition and jobs, I think it should be noted that endurance riding can be separated from trail riding, like distance running is different from going for a casual hike. Of course some people hike rather intensely, but let's say your typical person who goes for a hike and stops for a lot of rests, and keeps the pace really casual. 
@DanteDressageNerd talks about how some horses really need a job and they'll either be at the lowest level unused, or at the highest level of competition. But some of these have quite a different mental focus and won't do well at jumping or dressage or other detailed jobs, but will do very well at endurance. They may not settle and walk quietly for a few miles like the casual trail horse, but they may excel at trotting and cantering for ten or fifty miles. I also think some of these types can work stock like @Knave's horses. It depends a lot on the mind of the horse. 

I learned yesterday that I've been doing something wrong. We took Nala and Hero out for a ride on the beach with a battering wind and deep sand, and I still had Hero cantering all over the place without bucking. What I had been thinking was that with stifle issues, it would be better to free up the hind end, so I'd been taking a bit of a forward seat on Hero. Also I was not wanting to get launched if I was caught sitting heavily when he threw in a big buck. 
But with my new feeling of understanding Hero's moves, I tried sitting back more and I think I had been hampering him some. I was wrong; he needs to have his forehand freed up more, because he has to use it more to compensate. That makes so much sense now that I really think about it.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> There are things that need to come in progression, like you need to steer at the walk before you run. But I don't think any of us need to think that our horse is acting up because we didn't follow a prescribed formula in the right order when they were started in training. Training some horses with easy minds helped me understand this. They make it seem like a formula is working, and that there is something wrong with atypical horses. But it's actually not the formula, but those easy horses could have a dozen different methods or order of training and still turn out fine.


Yeah, there's more than one way to skin a cat! I've never believed in formulaic training, of horses or of people - I think you always have to work with the actual personalities and aptitudes and learning styles and sum of experiences of either, and be flexible in how you go about things. There is more than one road to Rome etc. Neither horses nor humans are robots, and I wonder that some schools of thought seem to reduce them to robots, by the way they suggest we approach them...

You're right that the easy horse is more likely to go along with stuff, yet the easy horse, like the "difficult" horse, benefits from non-robotic training as well. It's just that when the robotic training "works" people assume it's a good thing. The non-robotic training is better, though, and gets you better results (unless you want a robot...), but a lot of people don't seem to realise that - including many professional trainers...

I sometimes also think that the high degree of specialisation tends to promote robotic training; all-rounders can't be robots...




> I learned yesterday that I've been doing something wrong. We took Nala and Hero out for a ride on the beach with a battering wind and deep sand, and I still had Hero cantering all over the place without bucking. What I had been thinking was that with stifle issues, it would be better to free up the hind end, so I'd been taking a bit of a forward seat on Hero. Also I was not wanting to get launched if I was caught sitting heavily when he threw in a big buck.
> But with my new feeling of understanding Hero's moves, I tried sitting back more and I think I had been hampering him some. I was wrong; he needs to have his forehand freed up more, because he has to use it more to compensate. That makes so much sense now that I really think about it.


That is really interesting!

You know, it's funny; different horses have wanted me to distribute my weight differently, when I've looked at their input, by looking at what made them move most comfortably. My Arabian mare preferred me off her back from a medium canter onwards - I generally only sat the working canter on her on trails, and then lifted out of the saddle slightly (unless she was in a flighty mood; then I continued to sit, to cue her to be moderate). The faster the speed, the more forward I went on her.

Yet Sunsmart moves better when I sit the canter even as it goes to medium and extended; it's only when he's galloping that I get off his back, and then only slightly unless we're going uphill - then I go forward.

Sunsmart is more of a 4WD than even my Arabian mare was. A lot of his propulsion comes from his front end - he's got massive shoulder blades that needed a special cut-back saddle, and a very prominent breast bone and muscling around it from the French Trotter line - Trotters who use their shoulders even more than American STBs generally do. It's necessary when your racing gait is a square gait, rather than a gallop, which you can do more from the hindquarters.

I think it's so interesting to work out what horses prefer you to do, and then think about why that might be.


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## Knave

Yesterday something hit me, and I was surprised. Usually I am wanting to follow some sort of plan. I don’t follow it to a t by any means, but I have a general idea of where I want to go and how I intend to get there. 

I like advice and I like to improve. Yet, it hit me that I didn’t want that with Cash. It surprised me! It isn’t that I feel arrogant, or that I wouldn’t listen to advice given, but more like that I feel no need to be that good. Hmm... it’s as hard to explain what I am feeling as it was to realize. 

It’s like, when we have gymkhana practice, I am just playing with him. I don’t have any intention of making him a horse who could compete in the races. I doubt he is capable of being very good, and I could care less. I am having fun and he is having fun. 

Normally Cash’s lack of natural inclinations towards athletic endeavors would make me more intentional. However, I am finding myself happy with him, and happy to be where we are. For once I don’t really care who thinks what of him. He is simply my horse and I don’t have any need to impress anyone. 

I am happy with “good enough.” I don’t want the pressure attached for “perfect.”


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I am happy with “good enough.” I don’t want the pressure attached for “perfect.”


It's like what you said recently, and I've been taking it to heart. Something like, "Comparison is the enemy of happiness."

Just like I ran in a 5k race on the beach yesterday. If I compared myself to the other faster runners, I could be unhappy. I might even wonder why I bother still running after all these years. Still, I love running, and the truth is that I think my sister and I were having a lot more fun than many of the other runners. I was third in my age group for women, and even though you could look at my time and think it was slow, I choose to be happy that I had a lot of fun, and that I am doing so great for my age.

My sister likes to say we are solidly above average, and being above average means you're special, right? 

Everyone was so serious at the start, and there were people there from all over the country, who join in runs when they travel I guess. Like some people asked for clarification of the route, even though it's "down the beach to the water station and back." 

There's always this strange illusion when you start a race, where it seems impossible to tell how fast you are going. This is where my sister often gets sucked in with the rabbits, so I am the pacer and look at my GPS watch to make sure we don't sprint off. It felt like we were going very slow, but we often train 10 minute miles, so we had decided to run 9 minute miles. 

After several minutes, I saw we were running around 8:15, so I told my sister to slow down. She didn't, so I said loudly, "Slow down! These are not our people!" Then we were both cracking up because many people heard me, and I thought it was funny to announce loudly that we were slow pokes, and maybe it gave some an ego boost that would help them.

It's just like endurance riding, you have to run your own race, and can't be noticing that for example the people in the 10k who are running 5 minute miles have already gone in the opposite direction for a ways, looped around and are now passing you. I choose to be impressed and to say "they're going twice as fast as we are!" It's always the same...in the first half, I tell my sister to slow down and she resists. In the second half, she tells me to slow down and I don't. This helps us both.

There are always people who start too fast, and then it is fun to pass them by going slow and steady. At the end, my sister started hurting and there was no one around us so she put "Zombie" on her phone so we could hear it and she could try to get her brain into zombie mode to finish. We commented on things and laughed and had fun.

The run was made by sadists, and we know this because we've done it a few times. We've used GPS many times to measure it, and when we passed the actual 5K distance we were still on the hard sand and had run a good race. But then they route you for almost 1/4 mile over the deepest sand up to the finish, and you just flounder around and lose a couple minutes off your time while struggling through it. 

Anyway, my goal with running is to always keep it enjoyable, and I think people who are too competitive might burn out after a few years. On my birthday in a few weeks I'll have been running for 29 years. Thousands of miles later, it's still great. It was one of those things I read in a book when I was 12, that said anyone might go running, but if you want to you can be a runner, and stay a runner for your whole life. I took that to heart, and on my 13th birthday went out and did my first run. After that I just kept running. I think my first 5k race was in 1994. :smile:


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## Knave

I love that. Running for the joy of running is definitely a perfect example about comparison stealing joy.

That is a part of it with Cash, but more than the comparison aspect of it for me is the approval aspect of it. That may be the best part of who Cash is for me. People that tend to be critical are not interested in Cash. He’s not bred to be special, and many people look down at mustangs. Even those that don’t look down at mustangs tend to expect little of him in response to his massive build. Horses as big as him are not capable of being great on a cow. He could be a good rope horse, but I haven’t been a part of that scene for years.

Some cowboys see him and like him if they don’t have a hang up with the brand on his neck. Half drafts are kind of trendy to some currently. The thing with him though, that maybe led me to this realization, is that people like or dislike him based upon their own imaginations. It doesn’t feel as much like a response to what I have done with him.

Maybe it is the freeing nature of that that allows me to just have fun with him. I am not trying to make him into anything more than a partner for accomplishing my work. The rest is just fun, and I am happy to see what he turns out to be. 

I wonder if it’s always that way and I didn’t realize it. Maybe people decide whether they like a horse just like that. I have always felt so responsible for people seeing what I saw in a horse. I had to show them the talent the horse had. Maybe though, it never mattered anyways. I have always been a people pleaser, and maybe that is the same way. People probably decide what they like and dislike just like that, and we hold little responsibility as long as we are kind and considerate.


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## bsms

Had a good ride on Bandit. Short. Just 25 minutes. So if I was comparing...I'd be in trouble. I knocked out my first "over 30 minutes" run a couple of days ago, all hills, and my legs were still sore and tight. So my lowly goals for today were: 1) This is just our routine, and 2) Need 10 minutes on horseback to stretch my legs.

Bandit accepted it as such. As we got close to the far end of where we've been going, a chain saw 1/4 mile ahead of us and the large community water tank we were approaching were stressing him. But I didn't think he was going to break, so I took up some rein and urged him with lower leg. He went forward, but was tense. I didn't have my helmet so I put my legs forward where a spin would spin me into my stirrups.

But Bandit didn't spin. Then I saw a mesquite tree! Mmmmmmmm! Tension gone! We dropped into the wash and went further along the wash than we've gone solo. But again...he was getting tense, but not really explosive so...we pressed on. A judge might have laughed at me. Lots of cowboys would laugh themselves out of the saddle. But Bandit & I were pressing on, then we turned around and he walked back through the wash.

BTW - recent rains have given the wash a different look and smell. He always gets more concerned after a rain.

Climbing out of the wash, I tried the Harley style again for climbing. Getting my feet well forward shifts my CG forward without my needing to lean forward, but it also gets the weight off my rump and into my thighs. It actually was very comfortable for the short, steep climb. People would have laughed if they had seen us. But we were alone. Happily. :Angel:

On the way back, we did a number of short trots and short canters, which is why we finished in just 25 minutes.

A total Nothing-Burger by most people's standards. But my legs were stretched. Bandit got his routine, and even went beyond his routine. We were out alone together. He finished relaxed and seeming confident of himself. I could feel him relying on me as we went along, and I relied on him not to stumble cantering on uneven ground. I've been riding 11 years and this is the first time I've felt confident in me & my horse solo in the desert. To that degree, at least. Helmet-less. I think helmets had become a security blanket FOR ME rather than a reasoned, thought out step in risk reduction. 

I honestly think Bandit felt good about it at the end too. If rider and horse can finish the ride happy with each other and themselves, how does it get better?

Hurray for me and Bandit, and to heck with judges!

Including the one I insist on carrying around inside of me!
:loveshower:​


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> Anyway, my goal with running is to always keep it enjoyable, and I think people who are too competitive might burn out after a few years. On my birthday in a few weeks I'll have been running for 29 years. Thousands of miles later, it's still great.



This is exactly how my husband has always been with running. He's done an occasional fun run over the years but was always pretty adamant about not doing marathons because people take it SO SERIOUSLY and he just doesn't want to be someone who is defined by running. He got really swept up in the excitement this weekend though, and started thinking maybe he could train to do a 100K or 100mile next year too. And then a couple of hours later, he started thinking about having to push electrolytes and protein shakes and weird food gels over 28 hours of running, and it stopped sounding fun. He's got the metabolism of a 15 year old boy, and we always joke that his "feeding schedule" is just like a baby's- he has to eat massive amounts of calories every few hours or he can't function. I believe he'd have the mental toughness to get through a 100mile run, and is in great shape that he sustains year round, but I think figuring out how to get enough calories probably means he can't really do one.


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> I believe he'd have the mental toughness to get through a 100mile run, and is in great shape that he sustains year round, but I think figuring out how to get enough calories probably means he can't really do one.


Yes, I think that would be a huge consideration for him. When I've trained even for a half marathon I start to feel like that. A traveling nurse came to my work a while ago and told me he had started running a year before. He was tall and thin, and he was quite happy I was willing to talk to him about struggling to get calories in because most people are trying to lose weight and they think it's ridiculous to complain about it. He was extremely frustrated because he couldn't run a lot without dropping his weight below what was healthy. 

The bigger you are, the harder it is. Even for me if I start burning off an extra thousand calories a week, it can be difficult to get healthy calories in, even if I'm just trying to make my protein and carbs not completely unhealthy. It starts to become, another oatmeal? More rice? Wait, that's only 300 calories and I'm super full. Wait, all I did was replace other calories I might have eaten and I didn't get much extra in. 

My husband has spent a lot of time in gyms and also talks about how people who want to put on a lot of muscle have their lives revolve around food and getting enough protein. 
@Knave was talking about how humans are the best at long distances, but also women are better at it than men. My uncle complained about this to me, since he's done most of the Pacific Crest Trail a couple of times, hiking 20-30+ miles a day for weeks on end. The second time he did it he gained 40 lbs on purpose ahead of time, and still was emaciated before he was done. He said women just shut their metabolisms down and they have more fat to burn, so they don't lose weight rapidly like the men. He ran across couples on the trail where the woman looked great, just lean and muscled but the man was looking too skinny. 

Women can and have won ultra marathons, because even though men are faster and stronger, women can maintain better with less fatigue. So if anything takes out the man's advantage, the woman can often sustain through and win. 



Knave said:


> He’s not bred to be special, and many people look down at mustangs.


Yes, there are often threads on here about how to get the mustangs adopted and used. One difficulty is that there is a lot of bias surrounding mustangs. At my barn, both the barn owner and another boarder think of mustangs as always having a "wild" streak. The two boarders that had mustangs were not very skilled with horses, and had what I think of as normal green horse problems. But everything was blamed on the horses being mustangs. 

For one thing, mustangs are often more "horsie" than other horses. The ones born in the wild have lived like horses are meant to live. They were in closely bonded family groups, roamed day and night searching for food, and learned to use their instincts. This can make them less likely to react to small things in the outdoors. 

But also, many people are used to horses that have been raised unnaturally and handled and separated from other horses at a young age. To me this is what causes so many people to think separation anxiety and other natural horse behaviors are the horse behaving abnormally. 

I'm not biased against mustangs. For one thing, I love their hooves and the good bone they often have. But I wouldn't adopt one myself, because they may have a lot of stamina but most are not going to be motivated to go down the beach with Nala at a good clip for an hour. Their stamina is better for walking and jogging down the trail with shorter bursts of speed. Plus I know that any mustang in my environment will need to be carefully managed since they are not adapted to having loads of green grass and hay. That can be tricky. 



bsms said:


> I've been riding 11 years and this is the first time I've felt confident in me & my horse solo in the desert.


This is probably the best kind of comparison, the kind that helps you realize you've improved when compared to yourself and your own goals.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> They were in closely bonded family groups



Except that the males are driven from the harem at age two when they must on their own seek out a bachelor herd for survival.


A challenging stallion will often split another stallion's harem and make off with part of it. I actually witnessed this myself when living in the Pinenut Mountains near Carson City, Nevada.


The close knit and stable families do not play out in real life in the wild. Much can be observed around this in the Cloud videos.


The big thing about mustangs, to me at least, is that a newborn must often travel 10-15 miles per day which builds feet that are next to impossible to achieve otherwise.


If I were younger and were to get another horse, it would be one that spent it's youth as a mustang.


I remember reading somewhere that the term mustang originated from a Spanish word that means unbranded but now I can't find where. 



On the other hand, the herd of 20 or so I've spent 5 years with were mostly stable in captivity and mother/daughter/son were often seen grazing together. Sometimes just brother and sister would be off grazing together but definitely in the same proximity as Mom. With the offspring as much as 6 YO or more.


In the wild that relationship could never occur. Of course the males in the ranch herd were geldings.


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## lostastirrup

I haven't had much of a chance to pop in (work is busy) but I have to say this discussion on interesting horses and how we train in and out of a system has been really enjoyable.


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## Knave

@bsms I really need to stop insisting I carry a judge with me too! I don’t like that girl!!!
@egrogan I have to take in a ton of calories too. I have no idea how to not struggle maintaining a healthy weight, and I am afraid to run and lose the gains I do have. I really like a strength/cardio combo and a protein shake afterwards.  I am that oddity that will lose weight with any shift. If I start eating poorly I lose, if I quit working out I lose.... it’s frustrating! I am sure I couldn’t handle too much running.
@gottatrot it’s funny that some think mustangs are too wild while many think they are not enough. I do like the freeing nature of preconceived notions though. I really am enjoying Cash too. He’s turning out to be just the neatest guy! He still has that aggressive and intense streak in him, but he’s quit falling down and started really improving. He’s not particularly scared of anything, although he’ll spook it’s very reasonable. He seems to want to make me happy and work as a team. 

Maybe it’s just hot, and once it cools down he’ll start acting up again, but I really am starting to just enjoy riding him. I think he’d run with Nala, but until another round on his feet is done I wouldn’t trust him to not fall in the sand. He still has a tendency towards dragging his toes at times. I have heard that one of his buddies sold at the sale is struggling with the idea of speeding up, so I can see why you’d think that for sure.
@Hondo my favorite thing about riding a horse who was gathered is that he knows about the mountains. He doesn’t struggle with where to put his feet; he’s not scared of steep mountainsides or making his way in difficult terrain. That’s when he won’t fall. Also, he seems pretty logical. He doesn’t overthink everything, but thinks it through once or twice and that is it. He might be pretty dramatic when he first sees something, but after that he accepts it quickly. 

He’s a bit more aware of everything than I would like, but as he’s becoming more solid he doesn’t seem to react to things that are so far away. He always knows what’s going on within view. Even horses that worry a lot seem much less aware than he is. A cat can be on the road a mile away and he watches it carefully.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, a mustang that had the mind for speed would be a great endurance horse. One big criteria for endurance is good legs and feet, and I think a person could get most mustangs to eat and cool down. So the mind is most often the struggle from what I've seen. It's not that the ones I've met wouldn't keep going, it was just that they would walk and jog or maybe do a slow canter for a short distance. But they didn't want to trot out for miles.

I don't want to be negative about mustangs because they have many great qualities. And two actually finished in the top ten at Tevis last year, with one winning the best condition award.
In the picture you can only see his back hooves but those and his bones look big and sturdy. 

What am I talking about? When it comes to being selective, TBs and Arabs, my usual favorite breeds are among the worst. You can look through pages of TB photos on rehoming sites before seeing one that might stay sound. And when it comes to size, there are a ton of 14 hand Arabs for sale that are also less sturdy than small mustangs. 
As they say, a good horse is a good horse. It would be quite possible for me to find a good mustang as my next horse. 









One of my friends actually has a great mustang named Major, and if I'd come across him when he was younger I would have thought he'd make me a good horse. He actually does like to move out, although she doesn't so it's taken her awhile to get comfortable riding him. He's some kind of nice combo with a little draft for size but a lot of spanish. He's about 15.3 hands.








@Hondo, good point about the mustangs being split off from their family groups. I think of domesticated horses as being that way more, since we wean horses and then sell them at young ages. But I guess some of that is more natural than it seems.

Speaking of a good horse, Nala's rider wasn't feeling good last night so canceled our ride. But she was wishing Nickel could get some exercise, because she worries he gets bored. He's in a paddock that is about the size of Nala's night paddock, all day, and in a stall at night. There are horses around, but not in with him. So she twisted my arm (like it took any persuading) to go and ride him.

The barn owner across the road is very nice, and she doesn't even blink about me coming in and using her beautiful arena, hasn't even had me sign a waiver. I guess as long as someone is paying the board it's fine with her. 

I've had a few dressage lessons, but have ridden a lot of horses that were very basic in dressage and not many who were good at it. Nickel is so well behaved. He barely knows me but I took him out of his field without a protest, put him in his stall to tack up and he didn't object to being isolated, and then to the indoor arena which is more isolation. I was imagining the chaos that would have happened it someone had tried that with Halla.

After a warm up, I tried some things with Nickel and he could do anything I asked. Shoulder in, haunches in, half pass, and he can easily start across a diagonal in one direction at the trot doing half pass and then switch to the other direction. I've been on many horses that found that tricky. I didn't try that at the canter. He could also shorten or lengthen any gait with light aids. Pretty nice. Afterward I grazed him, which he enjoyed.

Next I rode Hero around the fields. We practiced getting close to a gate to open it, which he is getting slightly better at. Then I worked on having him calmly go around all the small bushes in the field, weaving wherever I asked through tight gaps. He did great at the walk, but when I asked him to trot his mind immediately blew up. I got him out of it in a few seconds, and then he did it calmly. I was so proud of him. 

Something I'm just learning is that Hero likes lectures. It's quite funny. If I do a one word reprimand, it goes over his head. But if I keep talking, after a couple seconds he looks me in the eye, and then he starts looking chastened. Yesterday I gave him two lectures. I walked him over the rise of a hill, and he suddenly thought he should hop around. I stopped and told him all about how he was an adult now and he shouldn't be acting like a baby horse, and as I talked his head slowly came down and his eye softened and after a few seconds he was ready to act like a gentleman. 

Later, I was taking his bridle off and he started flinging his head around. I began talking to him about how that was uncalled for and rude, and he should really wait nicely until I had him all untacked. Again, as I talked on, he stopped to listen. It's kind of funny, it has something to do with the tone along with the extended time but it gets through to him.


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## Knave

That is cute! I give lectures too. Mostly my lectures are aimed at Bones, because he also seems interested. Cash likes noise I think, but I’m not sure he pays much attention to tone of voice or anything like that. He enjoys singing and music. He is one horse it definitely calms. Come to think of it though, lately he hasn’t done anything lecture worthy. He has been right there when I need him... hmm... maybe he is setting me up.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Nickel sounds really lovely to ride, it sounds like he has had some good training and is a really good guy! 

Hero interest me a lot. He sounds like he has a mind of his own and it's always a puzzle trying to figure out what piece puts it together. He seems a kind where it's not about his body, it's about his mind. He seems like an interesting horse.

I always wish I knew more of Wonder's background because some of his behavior, Im not sure he was born like that. I think if I had broke and made him from the start, he'd be very different but who knows. I just dont think he'd have learned how to use his strength against a rider like he does. I think with a lot of horses it is a chicken and egg question. Is it from their past or part of what they were born with? Some combination of both?


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## gottatrot

*Warning* I am needing to vent a little.

I'll start off with a nice picture of Nickel from our ride today.









I'll just say it was "hot" for us, in the high 70s. Perhaps I was a little grumpy. So Nickel's rider was supposed to come over from the barn across the road to meet me and Hero, but it took her a while and so I texted to say I was heading over to meet them.

Halfway down the road, Hero got stuck so I got off to lead him. Then he pooped in the road next to a construction site so I found a stick and knelt to painstakingly scrape it off to the side. Hero was a little antsy about the scraping of the road combined with the nail guns nearby. But not bad. We saw Nickel was coming down the road toward us, accompanied by the barn owner/trainer from Nickel's barn riding on her stallion, and another girl riding on a pony.

Now Hero danced a little bit, and I found a fire hydrant to stand on top of and leap onto my horse. Apparently the barn owner and pony were going to ride down to the end of the road with us. When we turned to head back, Hero began to get worked up and danced, skittered across the road, and did some hopping. It wasn't great but not super bad. However, after a couple of minutes it seemed impolite so I got off and led him so the other horses wouldn't be affected.

The barn owner is also a much respected local trainer. She began making comments, and at first it was fine. To me it seemed understandable for her to tell the girl she was mentoring that Hero was a bad example, but then she started commenting about Nickel, and for some reason that made me mad. I've commented about how well trained he is!

She said something about high heads, and I tried to be light, "Thoroughbreds, right?" And she said she used to break in Thoroughbreds and she'd never let one have their head that high. She was telling Nickel's rider that if he had his head up he was bracing, and started going on about body control, and such. Meanwhile, in my estimation Nickel was just walking along. I said "Well, horses have different temperaments," and she was like, "No." "Body control." "It's what you allow." Etc. 

She offered to show us some things sometime (paid), how to control our horses. Nickel's riders graciously said that would be nice. 

Hero was doing better, and I said how he had been taken away from his food, and his friends were just across the road eating, so it was understandable he'd been upset. The trainer said her stallion had just left the mare he had bred today, so that was no excuse. I told her that Nickel's rider and I had ended up with certain horses because others had given up on them, but her take was that with proper training any horse would end up super mellow in all situations.

This stallion is about 14 hands, and is shaped a lot like @bsms' Cowboy. His eyes were only half open as he walked down the road. I'm just sayin' I don't think it was fair to say this _stallion_ was so well behaved, since is a different style of horse.
The horse on the right is the stallion.









Then I went to get back on and she was very concerned, saying I might not realize he was still very much "on the muscle." Whatever. I swung on and we headed across the road, he hopped and fussed a little waiting for Nickel to come over and then we made our way down to my barn. The barn owner expressed several times that she was very concerned about our safety, taking horses to the beach in this state, and hoped we both had cell phones, etc.

The horses were very calm almost immediately and we had a great ride. Nickel needs more work accepting the waves. They were loud and crashing today, and he didn't want them to break against his legs. Hero was a good example for him, standing rock steady as they washed over him. We did some nice cantering, trotting, and it ended up a great ride.

As we rode, I told Nickel's rider I was sorry if I had been rude, but all those comments had just hit me the wrong way.


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## bsms

I had 7 years with Mia. I'd have done a lot better with more experience. Of course. But until you own a horse like Mia, you can't really START learning about horses like her. In a sense, she prevented me from treating horses like machines. Maybe I'd have figured it out anyways, but she gave me no choice. I picked up some bad things from those 7 years. It is nice to ride on a horse who isn't likely to move so fast and so hard when startled - but it was what she taught me that made it possible for me to help Bandit out of his defensiveness. Well, as much as we've done so far.

Some have probably noticed I get defensive about my riding, too. I spent years being told on HF how all I needed to do was be calm, or how if I was just X or Y or Z, then everything would be fine. And it hurt. Hurts to be told you are failing, and in particular that you are failing your horse and how your horse would be wonderful if the rider just knew the basics. From people whose horses had never stretched them.

I've been told on my journal that Bandit looks hideous and I'm ruining him because he canters in the arena like this:








And if he moves that way in the corral without me, it proves I'm ruining him. Hollow back, you know! Horses cannot lift their heads without hollowing their backs. Like Trooper was hollowed out and inverted and braced in this picture, which I was slammed for posting years ago:








Because, of course, horses never lift their heads due to build. No matter if they are smooth and fluid and just feel GOOD. They are actually braced and resisting. Even when ridden with no reins like my daughter was! And of course, their noses tilted at 45 degree means they are braced and resisting and out of control. IIRC, gottatrot, you posted a picture once of a beautiful horse without a rider and were told a horse like that would be out of control!

It hurts. And it is so unfair. *And it hurts horses, too!* How many horses HAVE been ruined by people trying to control their bodies - people who don't even know the basics of how a horse moves, and when none of us - IMHO - truly knows very much about why they move the way they do! Artificial problems demanding artificial solutions by people who have told me, more than once, that NO HORSE moves well unless a rider teaches them how to move! YEGADS!

I'm sure you were better behaved than I would have been!

"_*A perfect book on riding could be written only by a horse*. Only he could easily answer all the questions endlessly argued by us riders. Only a horse could say positively how the rider should sit in order to abuse him less; how his rider should control him so that the aids are easily understood, and how the trainer should school him so that the training proceeds in a comprehensible manner. As long as little pertaining to horses, and hence to riding, can be stated with mathematical precision, riders are bound to disagree...

...*Only outstanding riders can forcibly put the horse into a certain attitude and better his performance by doing so. Ninety-nine per cent of amateur riders, for whom this book is written, cannot do it*, and if they were to attempt to do it they would merely upset and stiffen the horse, thus ruining all chances of a good performance. The less one asks of the horse, the less resistance one encounters, and the gradual raising of requirements must parallel the progress of the rider....

......The better the horse is schooled, the less forceful control is necessary. The aids become mere signals, and discipline is replaced with cooperation. It is not difficult to arrive at this level, providing that the method of schooling is stripped of movements which are not essential and which easily upset the horse and hence provoke resistance..._" - Common Sense Horsemanship, VS LIttauer, 1963. 

I think he was optimistic about how many riders can improve a horse via "body control". Or by "control". I increasingly believe we set upper and lower limits of acceptable behavior, and let the horse learn to control themselves within those boundaries. And of course, those boundaries may be much broader for some horses than others because horses are not all the same. But a principle I keep coming back to is that I must sometimes lose control to gain control, that I must give my horse freedom for him to learn restraint, and that in some cases (Mia's spin reaction) I just need to learn to deal with what the horse hands out. Because I swear Mia was an honest horse who tried hard for me. She gave me what she had to give. As the trainer I hired told me once, "_You have to love a horse for what they are and not for what they can never become!_" So true.

Heck, it obviously has hit a nerve with me just reading on the Internet. I need to go chill out.


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## bsms

PS: This looks pretty close to heaven :Angel::


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## DanteDressageNerd

I entirely understand your frustration. I cant stand people that arrogant. I truly believe that arrogance is because they've never actually experienced a horse who doesnt work like they expect every horse to work. 

It's like when people say it's 99.9% rider error every time, I just think boy that person is a beginner with hardly any experience swallowing whatever kool aid they're being fed. How arrogant do you have to be to think we are God and in total control of a horse, that we can turn them into a robot and make them whatever we want them to be? Ask a top rider in sport horse and I dont think any of the top ones would make a comment like that because a lot of the times their top horse is a "special" one. Which requires a little bit more problem solving, thought and time. You cant just use "body control" on a horse that doesnt just "submit."

It's ignorance combined with arrogance. That p!sses me off and Im on another continent! I can almost guarantee from that comment she's never encountered a horse that really takes her outside of her comfort zone and truthfully qh trainers usually wont encounter that and if they do, they send it on and pretend it never happened. Work with a horse with psychological damage and see what happens when you try to take body control too fast, they rear and flip or lock out a rider and bolt. A lot of horses are not comfortable with body control and it takes time to convince them to release their mind and body to a rider but the moment they lock their mind, they lock their body too. And as humans we are not that powerful or strong enough to convince a horse that doesnt want to be convinced.

But some people are so arrogant they think a horse is a totally subservient machine and that's what I think when people think training and riding is 99.9% rider/trainer error. To me that highlights the inexperience and lack of understanding from whoever says something like that. It's not necessarily anyone's fault, it's figuring out how to work with each horse and how to make them safe, happy and also able to do their job. Some horses it is working through more layers and it takes more time to gain the confidence and trust to have any kind of body control. If a horse doesnt want to do something, they dont have to. 

Not that Denmark is perfect but I like the mentality so much better than in the US. They look to understand and problem solve, rather than well I have an opinion therefore I am right. And I've never met one that was arrogant enough to say it's all rider error. They'd say let's look at this and figure out how to be successful. I find a lot of Americans quite rude and arrogant and it's almost always from people who just describe themselves as blunt or I just call it like I see it and Im like no you're just arrogant and assume everyone else is too stupid to understand. Most times people who say things like that lack any dimension to their thinking. They're locked in a black and white world without understanding the layers inbetween. I cant stand that mentality.

Im angry for you, arrogance combined with ignorance is one of my BIG pet peeves.


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## Knave

We’ve all been there I’m sure, so we can all understand. She’s wrong, so don’t worry too much about it.  

Many people start thinking they know it all. It only takes a couple difficult horses to humble them. Or, maybe as @DanteDressageNerd said, they move on quickly and their are somehow able to keep their convictions (although I keep saying there is a whole avenue of quarter horses who are extremely hot, whether anyone chooses to believe me or not. I personally do not know these quarter horses you speak of.).

I am finally trying to realize that people think what they want and let it fall away. As I explained before, Cash proves to me that people come with prior assumptions and they make up their mind regardless of what I do. I am beginning to think that is the way it is with the majority of horses anyways. The trainer was being flat rude, and so there is no reason to think much into it. I’m sorry it made you feel the way it did, and I understand completely because that often feels where I live, but probably it would feel much better to laugh at her brazenness and hope one day that she learns her lesson without getting hurt.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I can believe so, I have ridden hot qhs and I've ridden some real @ss hole type qhs but they usually seem to work through better or work with the traditional methods or can be made to do things. I dont know how to describe it but they have a different brain or mind set. It's not that they're less energetic but the mentality is different. I know there are exceptions and Im sure there are some that people just throw away because they think a little differently, I knew one who did carriage driving who was quite special. But generally different methodology works with that sort of horse vs a horse with a different sort of mentality. I have no idea how to explain, so forgive my inability to articulate. 

But I agree. I think when you work with enough horses, some days you throws your hands up and just go I dont know anything anymore. I dont know what to do. Would someone please come around, wave a magic wand and have all the answers like when I was younger and things were simple :lol: and then you realize we're all just learning and growing.

But that is really good advice, she's wrong so hope she can learn the error of her judgement one day.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...Because, of course, horses never lift their heads due to build. No matter if they are smooth and fluid and just feel GOOD. They are actually braced and resisting....


Yes. I was mentioning to Nickel's rider (something I think you were pointing out) about how horses with different anatomy may need to have their necks in different positions in order for them to respond well to the bit, because of how the bit sits in their mouth. 
Not to mention there's always what I think of as the contradiction of people who say a horse needs the neck lowered, until at some point it's fine because they're doing it in a dressage ring.


bsms said:


> It hurts. And it is so unfair. *And it hurts horses, too!* How many horses HAVE been ruined by people trying to control their bodies - people who don't even know the basics of how a horse moves, and when none of us - IMHO - truly knows very much about why they move the way they do!
> 
> ...I think he was optimistic about how many riders can improve a horse via "body control". Or by "control". I increasingly believe we set upper and lower limits of acceptable behavior, and let the horse learn to control themselves within those boundaries. And of course, those boundaries may be much broader for some horses than others because horses are not all the same. But a principle I keep coming back to is that I must sometimes lose control to gain control, that I must give my horse freedom for him to learn restraint, and that in some cases (Mia's spin reaction) I just need to learn to deal with what the horse hands out...


Yes, I think that's what gets me a little, the thought of how trying to just control Hero could put our progress back a ways, or get someone hurt. It is humbling, but I understand now that trying to get off Hero's hind end more has hindered his movement and cantering some times. If I can't even guess what he needs with something that simple, just my weight distribution, I better stay away from tampering heavily with how he carries himself. 



DanteDressageNerd said:


> ...I truly believe that arrogance is because they've never actually experienced a horse who doesnt work like they expect every horse to work...
> ...A lot of horses are not comfortable with body control and it takes time to convince them to release their mind and body to a rider but the moment they lock their mind, they lock their body too. And as humans we are not that powerful or strong enough to convince a horse that doesnt want to be convinced....
> 
> But some people are so arrogant they think a horse is a totally subservient machine and that's what I think when people think training and riding is 99.9% rider/trainer error...


What I was thinking of was the difference between a spirit of helpfulness and concern for horse and rider, versus being more closed-minded. I think if I were going to emulate a trainer, I would look for someone who was good at evaluating a situation. Just like with nursing, how can you do that if you don't ask any questions?

When I see someone having a medical issue, I might guess why that is, but I really can't know until I ask them or someone else in the know a few questions. That is what I also do when I see people having issues with horses. How can you know what is going on and offer advice if you haven't even asked some basics?

Such as, how old is the horse, how long has he been ridden, what is his behavior usually like, what kinds of issues do you have? Otherwise how do you know if this is a mellow horse being stung by a bee, or perhaps someone just threw on a saddle for the first time? Would you really expect a fully trained eventing horse to go around with their head low? That to me shows inflexibility or a narrow frame of reference, and so that is not someone I am likely to go to for advice. 

I've been around a lot of horses and riders that I've seen getting into situations. Often I'm the one around with the most experience. What I first do is assess and see if it seems like either the rider/handler has the tools to deal with the issue or else it is a problem that no one could actually handle well. In those cases it is usually best to just watch or lend a hand when it is appropriate. For example, a horse that is bucking after a bee sting or pulling back. Sometimes you just need to try to catch the horse after it has run off.

But if I see someone who appears to be in over their head with a horse, and not handling it well, I try to help right away. I've often taken horses away from people (with their relieved permission) so I can handle them until they calm down, or ridden them while switching the other person to a calmer horse. Or had them lead my own horse. If you really do care, and think you might know what is going on or what the horse needs, then it seems that type of offer is very helpful.

What is not helpful is to watch while saying the person is handling it wrong, or that the horse needs more training, without giving any concrete tips in the moment that might help such as "I think he's panicking about the bit for some reason, loosen up on the right rein." 

Something else that would make me not choose that trainer to help me is that I don't believe she was good at assessing the situation at all. I believe it is not difficult to see when a horse is pushing through aids versus when a rider is not giving aids in order to not push a horse that is already worked up. 
We were dancing around not because I lacked the ability to steer or cue Hero, but because I didn't want to apply pressure to a horse that was thinking about bucking or rearing. When I decided to take him off the asphalt and put him on the grass, I heard "good!" like I was finally able to steer. But there was less room on the grass, it was a narrow strip, so I soon put him back on the road again to ease his tension.



Knave said:


> I’m sorry it made you feel the way it did, and I understand completely because that often feels where I live, but probably it would feel much better to laugh at her brazenness and hope one day that she learns her lesson without getting hurt.


I love your perspective. I get caught up in the "principle of the thing," but my DH felt similar to you. His thought was that it might have been about trying to sell the product of lessons or training, and mostly about $$.

I am understanding now that my area of this country might be a little "bubble" of the horse world. I guess it's like how Labrador retrievers can be the hyper hunting types or the super mellow stocky types. Around my area, most people seem to love a certain type of QH and they are bred and sold everywhere. They are fairly short, very stocky, and with tons more whoa than go. If you start the horse walking, they will continue walking while you put the reins down, and never spook or try to trot. The preferred walking pace is slower than a human walking. People want to jog around slowly and never bounce, and also to have a slow lope that you need almost no experience on a horse to sit. 

Apparently in Arabs the taste is the polar opposite, with most being very spooky and reactive. Apparently that is not the case everywhere. My guess is that we have most of the racing and halter lines here, probably filtered up from California from the days when Arabs were for rich people. 

Unfortunately, the Morgans around here are also like that. Most Morgans I've met around here are a far cry from the ones HF members own, and are reactive horses that will spook you off in the woods.


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## Knave

I think we all live in our own bubbles! That’s okay too, because it allows us to understand our own environments. If I were in your, or anyone else’s, area I would be so lost! I wouldn’t even understand the wildlife! Gentle elk that stand around... that is not reality in my area, and I’m sure even the plants I wouldn’t understand.

I was telling my friend the other day that I was jealous of her trip to the beach. I told her Cash would adore the beach; he has this crazy obsession with water. She said I couldn’t guess his reaction to the beach, because of the foam and that type of thing that I wasn’t imagining. We just don’t know other areas! Lol


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## bsms

My theory on jog/lope:

Mia had a wonderful jog. Her "Happy Feet" jog. A little faster than her already fast walk, it was smooth and comfortable and I could sit it happily for as long as she wanted to do it.

Bandit rarely jogs. Trots, and with a stiffer back still than I would like. Given he used to be ridden at over 35% of his body weight, I may never get him out of the habit entirely. He CAN jog but I don't know how to teach him "jog" without creating resentment.

However, Bandit prefers to switch to a canter ASAP. My guess is the very heavy weight ROLLING on his back at a canter felt better to him than the more up/down bouncing of a fast trot.

I think the jog exists in western riding as an easy way to go a little faster than a walk while still being easy to sit, and the lope allows a horse to shift gears before the typically heavier weights - big guys with gear - start pounding on the back. The western tradition of sitting them both combined with the size of the guys often doing the riding makes the jog/lope more practical for the horse. Along with the length of the work day. A horse who anticipates a 10+ hour day, 3-4 days a week for months will conserve energy. 

A 6'2" or more guy on 14.3 hands Trooper. Trooper could be forgiven for not wanting to do high speed:








I'm too close to Tucson for my tastes. Around here, the typical non-barrel racing QH is built like a tank, can haul butt for a short distance but would much rather stroll. I'll see them in backyards, standing still for hours. It isn't just me. I've had neighbors as me why my horses move around so much more than "normal horses". But still...they have personalities. They are just better at tuning a human out IMHO.

I suspect the standard NH type training is geared more toward the sort of QH found around Tucson than genuine ranch horses. I'm reminded though of what I've heard about mules - that you can't teach a mule the way most people teach horses, but you can teach most horses the same way you would teach a mule. Just because a horse might tolerate a heavy-handed approach doesn't mean you'll get the best results that way. Maybe part of what makes a ranch horse act different is their riders know better?


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## DanteDressageNerd

I agree with that entirely. I get very annoyed when people say well that's not right but clearly lack the ability to assess the situation and understand what is going on. A lot of people only know what people tell them but lack the ability to look at and accurately interpret the situation. It requires critical thinking skills and everyone likes to think they have them but in reality few do imo. But truthfully I think a lot of people make comments or talk behind people's backs to feel superior in some way, not because they actually give a sh!t about a person's situation or horse. They just want to seem superior in some way. 

Like you when I see a person with a "unique" sort of horse, I try to assess especially if I know that horse is with someone experienced who knows what they're doing. Then Im curious and ask well what do you think is going on? Have you thought about a, b, c? And then listen and respect their answer. I dont work with that horse on a day to day basis, I dont know so I trust them and also trust they know better than I do about their horse. If I know them, then I might ask if I can help or see what is going on, so I understand. I generally look at it as I'd like to understand. I find a lot of relatively inexperienced or "stuck in their bubble" types simply cannot wrap their mind around that a horse might not fit their box. 

I also agree with the sensitive horse who might be claustrophobic of pressure that just telling them to knock it off when they're ancy is the last thing to do. Some horses carry more tension than others, I roll my eyes hard when people act like every horse will just walk quietly and I'll say in a ideal world sure but we live in the world of reality and have to work with what we have. Not the world of make believe. Need another tool box and set of skills to work with certain horses and adjust based on the horse you're working with. Some horses will not fit neatly into a box and need to be assesses as an individual. I think a lot of people struggle with that concept.

I truly find the people who know the least are the most arrogant and most self assured that they know more than everybody else. I've never met someone genuinely experienced with a wide variety of horses who is arrogant in that way. Like Mads, the trainer Im going to start working with. I told him about Wonder and if he thought he could help us. And he said well we'll just have to try and see but I think so. I think experienced people assess, rather than assume superior knowledge in all things. But Im also of the opinion that good riders and trainers problem solve and have flexible thinking and are willing to experiment, rather than say this is the way and the only way and if they dont do it, it's because youre not doing it right. Rather than maybe that system or method doesnt work for this horse or situation.

Dressage people do it a lot too, the nit picking. In Denmark people seem to do it less, I understand some Danish so I can pick up some things. Usually people watch riders go and dont bash them or say how they could do better like in the US. In the US I heard a trainer at a clinic who used to show PSG telling her student basically how poor a friend of mine was riding and how she could fix that in no time. And I remember thinking that horse would rear, flip over and crush your pelvis if you tried anything of what you just told your student you would do. Woman was clueless. I also resented her for destroying one of my young horses I developed, horse NEVER reared, bolted or bucked with me and somehow she turned him into a spooky, rearing monster. That horse was easy, uncomplicated and straight forward! Yes sensitive but never naughty. I was so angry. Most people just dont have a clue but they think they know a lot more than they do. And love to think when they see a horse not being their ideal that that person simply doesnt have their "enlightenment" or "wisdom" to fix it. Just gotta roll your eyes and let them think what they want. Those types rarely learn. Rather really earn the skill than just have a big ego. What people have shown at doesnt necessarily reflect their knowledge or skill level. I know people who dont show who are 10x the riders of people I've seen show the GP. It really depends on actual experience, knowledge and the mind set of the individual. Can have 10 people who have all schooled the FEI levels with a wide range of ability and skill level.

I will say it sometimes puts a smile on my face to imagine them work with Wonder and when people say things like well every horse can do it, Im like have you met Wonder? A horse like that I dont think anyone can really wrap their mind around until they actually interact with him and see him day to day. What should work doesnt work and you cant just make him or tell him what to do, even if you tell him no sometimes he just rear as in how DARE you tell me no! We went from an extended trot to asking him to come back, all I did was close my fingers, hold my core, close my leg and he reared straight up and bunny hopped forward like you dont tell me what to do! I told my Danish friends that and they just laughed, that is Wonder for you.

I like a lot of NH but I think it also depends on which NH trainer someone follows. They do a bit here. I like Tristan Tucker, I actually trained with his trainer for a little while. Learned a lot.

I have never worked with a mule but I've heard similar!


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## gottatrot

Have you guys seen these? So funny.
I put in the pictures so you don't have to click on the link:
https://horsenetwork.com/2016/03/time-yoga-accident-horses/


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## gottatrot

On days when I don't have time to ride or take the horses for a long walk, I usually just take them out for grooming and recreational grazing. Amore is so "into" this that she begins hollering the moment my truck pulls in to the barn. The place I park is down a big hill and also about 1/8th of a mile as the crow flies from their fields. They can't see cars from up there so I guess she just listens for my truck. She is so loud and keeps yelling until I get up to the top of the hill. It's quite funny.

The grass in the fields is rather dry and sparse right now, so they quite enjoy getting out to hunt for greenery. Hero loves the blackberries so I picked him a few tonight. Usually I just keep their leads on and they don't wander too far. 

We're supposed to feel sorry for people who can't ride their old horse? I feel sorry for their hard and bitter heart. Amore is a fun and enjoyable pet who loves to hang out with us. Still as cute and funny as ever. She certainly doesn't want to be thrown out somewhere by herself to be ignored. 






DH listens to the craziest music. This song had me laughing since it has wolves, thunder and crickets in it. It is called _Phonique - Vincent Price_.


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## gottatrot

I'm very excited because Nala's rider has agreed to trailer down next Wednesday to meet up with my three good old friends who live a couple of hours down the coast. Nala's rider has met these friends once, when they trailered the mini horses up to have "chariot races" on the beach. 

But they've never ridden together, and all are quite the same type of rider and like the same type of horses, so it should be very fun. My friends down the coast have not met Hero yet, and they will love him even if he has a completely nutty day, and they are so helpful and skilled, everyone will be assured of a great ride regardless. I could even let one of them ride him. 

The place we are meeting is called Bay Ocean Spit and you can ride 3 miles down a trail/gravel road that hugs the bay, and then cross over the spit and go 3 miles back on the beach (or vice versa). Part of it goes through some woods, as you might see from the aerial. 
It's an amazing place and usually has very few people. 









I let my friends know that Hero is not good at galloping, because we used to gallop most of the 3 miles back in the day when I lived down there and we had fit horses. And also Nickel has not galloped out like that yet with us. But they have a new horse right now, and another that requires a bit of managing since he has DSLD so he is supposed to canter more than gallop, so it sounds like we'll all keep each others' horses out of trouble. 

The nice thing about this beach is that you run into the jetty after 3 miles, so even if we couldn't pull up our horses we always knew we'd run out of land eventually. The beach up here where we ride is much longer, 16 miles.


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## Dragoon

Maybe Hero will find his gallop again!

I'm so happy for you all!


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## Knave

That is so exciting!! I am happy for you and I hope it is the best ride. It looks beautiful and I am jealous as well.


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## phantomhorse13

Can't wait for that ride report - take lots of video!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That beach looks amazing!! Takes lots of video and pictures, it looks like it'll be absolutely amazing!! Hope Hero finds his stride!


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## gottatrot

Horses are such a workout! Before riding today it was a lot of work just getting ready. Nickel had pulled a shoe the other day, and was still a little off so we were planning to take Nala out with Hero. But I noticed she was walking funny and when I picked her leg up saw that she'd stepped on a front shoe and bent it so now she was walking on a lump.

Her owner wasn't there yet so I ran up and down the hill looking for hoof tools or some kind of chisel or hammer since I hadn't brought any. No luck. So we tried contacting the barn owner across the road since she was the one who had put Nala's shoes on, but no answer. We ended up walking Nala the half mile over to the other barn, finding no one, and so I borrowed the rustiest tools I could see that were sitting out and got Nala's shoe off. It was a bit difficult since they had been put on quite recently. Plus Nala was prancy dancy in the strange environment. I did jab myself with a nail end which I saw coming so that was just dumb. But then I had to keep from bleeding all over the tools we were borrowing.

Nala was sound as soon as the bent shoe was off, so that was good. Now we walked the half mile back to the other barn, to saddle up for a ride. 

It was a beautiful day and I tried the Ghost treeless on Hero - I'd not yet been brave enough to use it due to his some time antics. Today he did not buck or even spook once, and was very calm. We didn't even canter since Nala had one boot, one shoe on in front.

She is looking gorgeous this summer.
























We are really hoping that two out of the three TBs will be sound enough to ride on Wednesday.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Wow!! I looks really nice! I am envious of beach trips!

Hero looks so impressed but you look happy! Cant wait to see pictures and hear about Wednesdays trip  will Nala have her shoe back by then?


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## gottatrot

DanteDressageNerd said:


> ...will Nala have her shoe back by then?


It was back on yesterday! Perks of having the farrier living across the road. 

Amore thought she was so cute today. I've noticed that if I pull my phone right out of my pocket, the sweat over the lense makes a sort of "glamour shot" look. I never can see that it's fuzzy on the screen in the sunshine. 









Hero's not really the glamour shot type. He's more the king of awkward poses.









We had our family reunion yesterday and my poor dog had his life flash before his eyes. I was holding him in my arms and my older brother's dog lunged and grabbed Gil's leg in her mouth and pulled. My dog screamed and I got him loose, luckily he was uninjured. Here is his expression moments later:









They've met before but I failed to take into account that they now have a second dog, and apparently this adds a new dynamic where the older dog is protective of the newer one. The dogs are wonderful with children, great dogs really. Not so great with little dogs. 

My sister saved me from myself twice; she listened to me rant because my old aunt told me about how she is sad her pony has foundered and has elf shoe hooves - and I had noticed in a picture on FB a couple of months ago a picture of her pony out on acres of lush grass. But I though surely since she's had horses for many years plus her daughter is a horse person, that she would not keep the pony out there... 
Then she told me her other horse is very thin, and she wasn't sure why. I asked if maybe the teeth needed done and she said possibly that was it since everything just wadded up and fell out of the horse's mouth. Arrrgh! So my sister kept me from strangling my aunt.

Then we did our annual family run around the lake, which is a 3 mile loop that some people walk. Somehow the ones responsible for a kid (maybe 12 yrs old?) ended up running off (his soon to be stepfather, jogs 7 minute miles), and then the kid petered out so we had to go very slow. My instinct was to ditch the kid and let someone else coming behind pick him up. However, my sister helped me understand that would be wrong, and so we jogged in place and such while cajoling the kid the rest of the way.


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## Dragoon

Poor Gillian!
He looks terrified! Its good you have an understanding of animals, and did not go shoot the attacking dog! Different species operate under different drives than we do, so of course we can't predict surprise actions like that. So glad it wasn't worse...

I'm not shocked about your aunt being an idiot. I learned my first year around horses that all the people I assumed to 'know' horses, didn't. Barn owners, instructors, boarders, the 'advanced' riders, etc. Six years in, I now assume people are clueless unless I see evidence otherwise. Perhaps a bit of a harsh assessment on my part, but that is the pessimist in me. 
Even the kid I hired to ride out the tb mare's bucking, while being unshakable in the saddle, isn't very sensitive to when he's over facing a horse. My way is slow, but I do get a horse that is confident and willing to jump. Or maybe the kid isnt used to riding a horse this dumb, lol. 
I'm curious as to why someone as experienced as yourself would assume the aunt knew better?? You just have faith in people?

"My instinct was to ditch the kid...". Yeah, that would be me, too. 
A family run sounds like a wonderful tradition!!


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## Knave

I’m not sure it would have been wrong to ditch the kid. If horseback and you didn’t know the horse the kid was on it would have, but on his own legs wouldn’t he have been fine going his own pace there? Little girl is twelve, and I think I would have left her behind if she couldn’t run. She would probably just be happy that I didn’t force her to keep going. 

She is plenty old enough to make her way around a lake though, and she doesn’t have the privilege of much cajoling. Her asthma tends to hold her back at these types of things. I have stayed behind with her hiking many times, but only because it would be easy to get lost because we’ve never been on trails and she’s not a good tracker.

I think that, like ourselves, at least my girls really would hate being the reason someone is stuck somewhere.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Fabulous she has her show back on, I hope you all have a fabulous time tomorrow!

Well sometimes I think mares very much so adore themselves and are a bit diva like or arent I pretty? Please tell me how glamorous and pretty I am, I live for flattery lol. 

I hear the frustration when people neglect common sense basic care like getting teeth done or keeping ponies or horses prone to founder off of lush grass. A friend of mine's Grandfather kept his Icelandic pony on a lush field and she foundered, so my friend took her and put her on a diet and had a specialist farrier look at her. She should be fine but not sure her grandfather will keep her off the fields or not. 

**** ditch the kid! And having to be told that would be wrong :lol: I appreciate that. Id have thought the same but it was nice of you to stay behind and encourage him!


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## gottatrot

A lovely epic ride yesterday. We ended up having six horses. 

Nala's rider took Nala, and besides Hero we had four friends: 

Sage, the Canadian Warmblood, Booker the Anglo Arab, Breezy the QH, and they brought someone else just for Nala; Skipper. Skipper was a rescue and is a paint colored horse. He's very narrow with an upright neck so I'll go along with my friend's guess he might be crossed with a Saddlebred. He had very big gaits and was fast.

I always forget how nice it is to ride with a group of good riders. Hero had a great ride. 
























Breezy stayed back and cantered with Hero, and helped him get through seeing Nala leave with only a small moment of worry. Nala was able to run fast with Skipper. 

Booker and Sage were in the mid-range, sometimes galloping a bit but Sage's rider is very careful of his tendons (he has DSLD) and Booker is over 30.

Booker is amazing. He had severe issues with COPD and was not doing well several years ago. The vet gave him an antihistamine that didn't really help but my friends found another antihistamine just slightly different and it gave him a new lease on life. He takes it every day but he acts like a young horse again. His heave line went away and he has been doing local jumper shows. 
My friends tried to retire him awhile back but he was very mad about it so they let him go back to work. He seems very healthy and happy. 

Hero wore his Renegade boots which I haven't used too much with him. They stayed on perfectly through all terrain and he wanted to canter quite a bit on the gravel roads. On the beach we probably cantered a good mile and he brought out this big spanking trot which kept up with some of the other horses' canters. He must have trotted at least two miles at a stretch, and never seemed tired.

The farrier who put Nala's shoe back on the other day pounded the same bent shoe down and put it back on. Which was not the best idea since it was aluminum. After our ride we turned the horses out in my friend's pasture for an hour before loading them up for the ride home. As Nala was getting in, I saw that part of her shoe was on the ground behind the trailer. It had just broken off where it had been bent previously. Luckily it had made it through our ride!









My video is a bit long but I wanted to remember our conversations when I watch it in the future.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, awesome!! Thanks for sharing the whole video, I loved riding along. Hero looked so happy in his beach canter- loved those eager, forward ears.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> PS: This looks pretty close to heaven :Angel::
> hoofforum.com/photos/var/albums/20190726_181357.jpg?m=1564194719[/IMG][/CENTER]


 @bsms!!!! You've grown a halo!!! 

...amazing aereal photo, @gottatrot. Still catching up! 

A helpful poem for that "other people" predicament - I'm sure I've quoted it before:

_Happy is the mo'ron
He doesn't give a dam'n
I wish I were a mo'ron
Oh no! Perhaps I am!
_


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I think that would be a huge consideration for him. When I've trained even for a half marathon I start to feel like that. A traveling nurse came to my work a while ago and told me he had started running a year before. He was tall and thin, and he was quite happy I was willing to talk to him about struggling to get calories in because most people are trying to lose weight and they think it's ridiculous to complain about it. He was extremely frustrated because he couldn't run a lot without dropping his weight below what was healthy.
> 
> The bigger you are, the harder it is. Even for me if I start burning off an extra thousand calories a week, it can be difficult to get healthy calories in, even if I'm just trying to make my protein and carbs not completely unhealthy. It starts to become, another oatmeal? More rice? Wait, that's only 300 calories and I'm super full. Wait, all I did was replace other calories I might have eaten and I didn't get much extra in.
> 
> My husband has spent a lot of time in gyms and also talks about how people who want to put on a lot of muscle have their lives revolve around food and getting enough protein.


On that note:


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## bsms

A bit off-topic...although that is normal for a journal...my diet has taken me below 165 for the first time in years. I suspect I'll go below 160 soon, for the first time in decades. Started at 180. Over time, it has evolved into the "Get Used to Being Hungry Diet". I could write a book but I don't think it would fly off the shelves.

It took a couple of weeks using an 18:6 intermittent fasting approach to get to a point where being hungry didn't cause headaches. Two meals a day in a 6 hour window have turned into 1.5 meals a day, usually inside a window but not always. I'm eating a LOT less than before.

Diet books talk about our metabolism slowing when we diet - and consider it a bad thing. But what if it works both ways? What if overeating speeds up our metabolism as the body tries to stay somewhat healthy in spite of the constant food? What if dieting slows our metabolism down to what is actually normal for a human, allowing us to live on less food? Because until recently in human history, almost all people regularly went hungery?

The challenge can then be finding nutrient dense foods. IMHO, and contrary to what the American government preaches (and the AHA), cheese and eggs ARE nutrient dense foods. Nuts are good. Bread, pasta and rice? Not so good. If you go out to eat, good luck! And if you are fundamentally healthy, IMHO - having what ought to be a normal human metabolism - then a typical American meal is just too darn big!

Based on what I've lost so far and projecting how my waistline could continue to change, my 'fit but not extreme' weight ought to be 140-145. FWIW, the average American soldier in both WW1 & WW2 was 5'8" and 145 lbs. No idea if I will get there. If I do, finding men's clothes that fit may be tough. America has re-calibrated its eyes for what is "normal". I'm beginning to appreciate, though, why McDonalds used to sell 1.6 oz burgers and Coke was found in 5 oz bottles...:frown_color:


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## gottatrot

@SueC, funny stuff!!



bsms said:


> Diet books talk about our metabolism slowing when we diet - and consider it a bad thing. But what if it works both ways? What if overeating speeds up our metabolism as the body tries to stay somewhat healthy in spite of the constant food? What if dieting slows our metabolism down to what is actually normal for a human, allowing us to live on less food? Because until recently in human history, almost all people regularly went hungery?
> 
> The challenge can then be finding nutrient dense foods. IMHO, and contrary to what the American government preaches (and the AHA), cheese and eggs ARE nutrient dense foods. Nuts are good. Bread, pasta and rice? Not so good. If you go out to eat, good luck! And if you are fundamentally healthy, IMHO - having what ought to be a normal human metabolism - then a typical American meal is just too darn big!


Our metabolism slows when we lose weight because we are smaller. The smaller factory requires less energy to power than the bigger factory (that's how I think of it). 

Something I've noticed is that people I see dieting appear to think they are temporarily eating less to lose weight. Then apparently they think after they lose the weight, they'll be able to eat large portions again. To me it seems obvious that after you lose the weight, you'll have to eat less because you're smaller.

People want to eat a lot while still remaining a good weight. As far as I know, the only way to do that is to work so hard you burn off all the extra. 

It is a real eye opener to go to Japan and see the meal sizes they give you. Most people there are not overweight, so they eat portions that are normal sized. To our eye this looks small. 
It was harder to notice when eating traditional food, since they put everything in multiple small dishes. But when you go out to eat western food, then it is obvious. 

It's true if you eat less, you have to make sure that what you eat has nutritional value. I remember in college nutrition the teacher said the American diet has so many calories that it is difficult to be malnourished. The sheer amount of food means vitamins and minerals are present in at least the minimum required amounts. It's only those who eat a lot less or work/exercise hard that can have issues.


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## DanteDressageNerd

The beach trip looks amazing!! All the horses look like they're have a really good time! The video looks like a dream!! It looks SO SO much fun and such beautiful sights, I think Wonder and I would love such an adventure!! Wonder LOVES water! Where is that? I used to live in Oregon and did a lot of trails and overnight camping in Florence and around Portland and in Washington state too. Such an amazing areas, looks so much like Scandinavia!!

I actually dont believe in dieting but lifestyle changes. I think to permanently keep weight off, we have to change how we live our lives. I think people who diet, tend to live a bit of a yo-yo life style. And often people I've known who are very overweight tell me they're on a diet and want to lose weight and that they eat healthy. And then I see what they eat and think well there you go. I dont think they know what portion control or healthy eating is. If they want to be big and eat a huge plate of nachos that is their choice but if they want to lose weight, it's not just what they eat but how much they eat and exercise are important.

I also think added hormones and preservatives and highly processed/refined foods the body doesnt break down efficiently is hurting people too. I dont know if GMOs are too concerning.I need to do more research on it at some point because I wonder how much diet effects the increased rates of autism too. You see much higher rates of diagnosis in the US than in Europe and even higher rates in parts of Asia like Hong Kong and South Korea and I wonder why that is. Im sure diagnostic criteria, genetics, environment, and consumption.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/autism-rates-by-country/


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## bsms

I suspect humans are like a lot of wild animals. When food is plentiful - summer, fall - we gain. Then winter comes...except modern societies have no winter. Some societies emphasize self-restraint as a quality, or emphasize eating meals at home. That helps. And physical activity helps, but it takes a long run to run off a big slice of apple pie!

My wife is from the Philippines. Living in the Philippines in the 80s, it was shocking to land at LAX and be surrounded by such wide people. My wife hasn't been home in 20 years. She recently discovered a disgusting thing called Facebook and found pictures posted of the kids of friends, or grandkids of her sisters & brothers...and most of them are overweight. To a degree almost unheard of in the 80s.

I think it is normal for an animal to overeat. For wild animals, that is a requirement to survive - because the lean times will come. Except for modern man, the lean times are gone. 

As is much of the physical work. Wyatt Earp was in a gunfight in Tucson. He was also broke, so he got back to Tombstone by walking. Walked through the night. 60 miles later, a passing wagon gave him a ride for the final 10 miles. And he didn't even have my lightweight, breathable, cushioned jogging shoes! That was normal for most of human history. It is what our bodies are meant to do. But don't hold your breath waiting to hear my account of walking from Tucson to Tombstone...:rofl:








Endless sugar and modified foods, growth hormones, etc - they are becoming world-wide. That is biologically weird too.


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## gottatrot

Had a great ride on Monday with Nala and Hero, 8 miles.

I'm going to say this very quietly because I believe in Murphy's law.

_Hero hasn't been bucking! At all!_

Nala's rider thinks it has taken a long time for the inflammation from his stifles to go down, but we've been cantering around even in the deep sand and over rough ground, up and down hills. His extended trot is improving too.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> The challenge can then be finding nutrient dense foods. IMHO, and contrary to what the American government preaches (and the AHA), cheese and eggs ARE nutrient dense foods. Nuts are good. Bread, pasta and rice? Not so good.


Yeah, forget about the government nutrition preachers - it's the same here - did I ever tell you that Nutrition/Dietetics students tend to be drawn from the C-to-B range in their high school leaving science scores? That level student doesn't do complex analysis well, yet they're running nutrition, officially, once they get out there... and that's a really complex subject where you need to be well versed in a truckload of variables and complexities...

I agree with your food assessment: Cheese, eggs, nuts good - unless you have specific allergies or intolerances to them. Bread, pasta, rice bordering on atrocious unless wholemeal, and then only in amounts that correspond to activity levels, not as filler-uppers.

The filler-uppers are the F&V; but starchy F&V in line with activity levels. You can make a nice tomato/onion/bell pepper soup that you can eat until it comes out of your ears and it won't make you fat, it will just load you up with antioxidants, vitamins and minerals - do you want the recipe? I make it when I want to really fill up on something.

Good-quality protein, every meal: Nuts, eggs, bits of cheese, fish, lean meat, etc. Ricotta has stacks of whey protein and little fat and tastes great on toast with some stewed fruit on top! And no sugar needs adding when you stew ripe fruit; just sprinkle some cinnamon. Don't buy the commercial crap, the fruit is floating in sugar syrups...

Main thing is that you feel healthy and good and happy, and that you move a lot, and eat _foods_, rather than non-foods (the thing many nutritionists forget about). The less refined it is, the better!


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## gottatrot

This summer has an unusual bug pattern. Usually if Amore is going to have a problem with sweet itch, it's in late May/early June. Suddenly last week I noticed she was itching a bit, and thought I was keeping up fairly well on the fly spray. But a couple days ago she rubbed her hind end hard enough to take the hide off and open up some raw areas near her tail. So she's in her Boett blanket "pumpkin suit" for a couple of weeks until her itch settles back down. Thankfully she still has her mane and tail, since with horses with sweet itch you can lose one or both if you're not paying attention and the horse has an itchy day.

This is what her pumpkin suit looks like, if you haven't seen one:








Hers sags in an unattractive way under the belly, but the other horses don't seem to laugh at her too much. It is invaluable because it covers absolutely all the exposed areas where the gnats bite.

I asked Hero today what he would do if we lived in a hotter climate. We took Nala and Hero for a ride on the beach and it was full of activity, Saturday afternoon in August you know. Even if we had to head inland to avoid some crowd near the water, Hero kept making a beeline straight back for the ocean. He just wanted to stand in the waves and let the water splash over his legs. This is him when it's barely over 70 degrees, and there was even a light breeze going. He's not real great at cooling, being a heavily muscled type.

The sand was shifty and barely hard even down by the water. The horses were extremely brave and scarcely blinked at anything. Hero was taken aback by a loud stereo blaring Latin music. However, I am proud of how well he is learning to calm himself quickly. He jumped, but was calm within just a stride. 

There was one moment when we were taking an alternate route around a tent, and Hero was staring at it when something flapped inside. He took a slight hop sideways, which would have been fine, except a startled seagull flew up nearly under our feet and he wasn't looking at it, so he turned his hop into a huge leap/buck and I went flying high. The seagull went flying high also, and did not have to come back down like I did. 
Hero has that extremely nice feature of staying on a path, however, and since he continued forward somewhat straight I managed to crawl back into place in the saddle after I landed askew. He kept leaping forward until my feet were homed into the stirrups, and then came back under control. 

After that both horses ended the ride on a loose rein and quite calm. On the last two rides I have been disengaging the chain on my kimberwicke and using it as a snaffle only. 

Nala's rider has not had Nickel out of the arena in a while. She's actually thinking about possibly reselling him, due to a number of factors. She's had some delays on her barn building, so might have to board both horses over the winter. Nala is a horse that needs to be ridden each week, and it can be quite the task to condition two horses while working full time. During the period of time when Halla and Amore were both being conditioned, I often did two rides in one day, and utilized friends to come weekly and ride Amore so I could get both out together. 

It is also strange, but even though Nickel has done eventing and dressage, he does not seem to have a good fitness base to build on. He's weak in the hind and has a long back, and his trot is very rough. He also will need a lot of work to not get excited and strong in open areas such as the beach. I will be sad if she sells him, because I quite like him. However, I do have to prioritize getting Hero exercised, so I can't just ride Nickel every time we are both off work and able to ride together. I wouldn't mind having him myself, however.


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## SueC

Very fetching! And great for Halloween too!


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## gottatrot

This might be a weird post.

I had a bizarre dream that Secretariat's owner came to talk to me about Hero. Turns out, when he was young, he had been Horse of the Year, and she showed me his pictures on the cover of magazines and also videos of him riding in parades. She said they had always known he had stifle issues, so he was either great or terrible, depending on how he felt. ?????

On the forum I was drawn in by an apparent troll, and posted responses against my better judgment. In my defense, it was 3-4 in the morning, sitting bored while patients snored. Yeah, that's no excuse. The subject led me to reading more about Tennessee Walking Horses, and now I am wondering if that breed has the distinction of being the most abused out of all the horse breeds. It has been a while since I have made myself look at what they do to these horses. 

We recently had a discussion on here about Safesport, and last night I saw a 20/20 program about the gymnasts abused by Nasser that made me outraged and disgusted that so many young people had to go through the abuse, and how the adults did not protect them. DH and I talked about how many times we'd seen at least minor abuse in sport, and agreed that creating something like Safesport was necessary.

Perhaps we are making progress regarding humans, but what about the animals? It also bothers me extremely that the people showing Tennessee Walking Horses in Big Lick competitions are not imprisoned (or tortured) for their extreme animal abuse.
Despite legislation, this is still going on _today_. I know, I'm not naive, there is horse tripping, dog fighting and cock fighting, but these shows are going on in the open, not just in secret, hidden pits. You could actually go attend a show and see this.




The horse that was posted about on the forum here was apparently suffering from poor breeding and usage to the extent that I thought she must have some debilitating disease or injury. From what I've read since then, in an attempt to get the extreme gaiting, these horses are intentionally bred with lax tendons to the point where their legs can bow out at the joints or collapse. 

A few years ago, I was looking for a boarding barn and came across a beautiful property that was a TWH facility. When I went inside on a sunny day, it was to see that the acres of surrounding green pastures were untouched by horse hoof and all the stalls were full. The horses could not see out of the stalls, it was very dark in the building, and all the horses wore harnesses with tail set braces. I have never seen such dead eyes, and every once in awhile the silence was broken by the sound of cribbing. 

What gets me is the temperament of these horses. How can they keep trying for the riders, despite the pain, despite the insanity of it all, with nothing in it for the horse? I can't imagine how dangerous many horses would get if you tried to impose this on them.
People are so vocal about "horse breaking," and everyone says we are for gentling nowadays, etc. But this is the true horse breaking that is still going on today. Literally breaking the horses in spirit and body.


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## bsms

Kind of hard to like your post, gottatrot. I think I'd favor strapping weights to every person there and then using an electric cattle prod to make them 'canter' across the desert. Or just dump them in the ocean for the crabs to eat.

My problem with SafeSport is their secrecy and rules of evidence. Having someone do an initial investigation to see if something MAY be going on is probably good, although I always wonder where the parents are. Trying to investigate something that happened, if at all, 30 years ago bothers me, as does having the investigators judging the 'trial'. Sad to say, but I now think children (below 18) should have PE classes and/or PLAY. "Organized sports" increasingly look like targets for predators.

Even our small church now requires background checks on ANYONE who will teach or even help out with children's church. We also require two adults. If we don't have two adults available - small church - we just don't do "X". And our policy is for suspicions to be reported to the police for investigation. A couple of years after we adopted that policy, our insurance company told us it would be required for continuing insurance.

I do not understand how "Big Lick" riding is legal. Seems like obvious abuse to me. But a lot of horse riding lessons also strike me wrong. Shouldn't we train new riders to think of the horse as their FRIEND first and foremost? And who would kick their friend every step along the way?


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## DanteDressageNerd

I agree with bsms with safesport. Im not in the US, so it doesnt affect me but it disgusts me that they dont require much more than heresay to start an investigation without a time limit. Where is the evidence to the claims? I think there always needs real evidence before an investigation or someone's life is ruined based on heresay. I had a friend who was definitely innocent accused of raping a woman he had been consensually engaged with for months but because she was married and got caught. She accused him of rape. He had a whole investigation, lost his job and it ruined his career. He's a registered sex offender, even though he DID NOT rape her. And I know that guy. He's a bit of a sleeze but he's not the type to play woman. He's pretty straight up about what the deal is and if they want to engage, he does and if not there's more. 

Point being a false accusation gives a lot of power to the accuser and not a lot of protection for someone possibly falsely accused. I've heard people say, who makes stuff like that up? A lot of people if it benefits them and some people are just plain vicious and will make sh!t up about people for the fun of it. 

I also DO NOT understand how big lick riding is legal, to me it is obvious horse abuse and obvious pain. I dont hate saddleseat, depending on how the horse is trained. Some things I've seen is truly heinous. I've gone to a lot of different yards, the harshest training methods I think Ive seen in person have been from western pleasure riders. Not all are bad but Ive seen some really ugly stuff. I've seen some really ugly stuff in dressage too. I get horses having moments, disagreements and things and sometimes training isnt pretty but then there is abuse and bad, unfair treatment and that is where I get upset. In Germany I saw a GP rider on an upper level horse miss the hind end in the change, So she whipped that horse into the tiniest circle possible, chasing it, digging her spur in and out and cranking it's nose to her knee. Then went on. That I didnt think was cool. She didnt spare her whip either. I saw another rider who puzzled me. I've never seen someone not move and yet come off a horse with blood from the mouth and blood on the sides. And he was the nicest, gentlest man. I dont get it. But he was super strong, his thighs were the size of my waist. But you'd see him ride and his leg and hands were so still and quiet, yet there was blood. 

I am so amazed by the temperaments of the horse's that take that but then again, I usually got the rejects who had been thrown out of training programs because they wouldn't tolerate it and were written off as bad. And for a long while I was too poor to own a horse, so I chance rode whatever I could get and it was usually throw aways. So like you it astonishes me the amount of abuse and pressure horses will take. A saddleseat trainer who did morgans once told me, people think saddlebreds are such naughty horses yet look at how much they put up with?


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## knightrider

I was once getting a horse from a rescue called Horse Protection Association of Florida and working with their trainer to prove I could handle the horse. He had been abused badly. 

The trainer said, "You know why Pasos are so badly abused?" I said, "No, why?" She said, "Because you can. You can't get away with that kind of treatment with Arabs or Thoroughbreds. They'd kill you." 

Some of those gaited breeds are so so sweet. The Paso I did get from HPAF was so loving and giving. You would never have known that he was so badly beaten that his owner was thrown in jail.


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## gottatrot

Whew, had to work pretty hard this last weekend. Ended up having to sleep quite a lot to catch up. More than 12,000 people came into the area for a relay race, and sometimes it is simply amazing how well the athletes take care of themselves. This year was apparently deceptive, and I think it's because once people got over the mountains the temperature seemed cooler compared to the heat of the valley. Yet it has been very humid this year, and I guess people sweated more and drank less than they should have because there was a lot of rhabdomyolysis. 

Tomorrow I will probably ride three horses. My coworker says her new horse, Bandit has been giving her some trouble when she tries to take him out alone. This has been making her nervous, so she has asked me to ride him. I'm also planning to ride Nickel, and then later go out on Hero with Nala. Hopefully all that will work out. 

I have some pretty bad equitation pictures to post on here soon, of me on Nickel trying to sort out his gaits. I was glad Nickel's rider took the pictures since it's great to have some insight into what you are doing wrong. In contrast, I took some video of her riding him and she looks great. 

It's a little sad since in a couple of weeks, Nala's rider plans to move her two horses to a barn out in the country, closer to her new place where she will be living this winter. I've started looking for a horse trailer, so hopefully we can still arrange to meet up for rides frequently.

Some thoughts from a post I made on Dantedressagenerd's journal: 


> You can't truly "restart" a horse. That's something I've been thinking about. I was watching some trainers starting horses, and I was realizing you can only give a horse new knowledge, you can't take old knowledge away.
> 
> The horse that knows he can run through a bit and take off will never unlearn that. You can give him new information to build on, such as that he can trust you and you won't scare him, so eventually he won't feel the need to do that anymore. Or maybe you will give him the belief that a certain bit can hold him back. But you can't just take him into the arena and "start over" with the basics and have that old information disappear out of his head. He'll never be the same as a horse that had no bad start, no poor treatment, and no bad memories.
> 
> But I almost feel like it's the opposite of what people say. They talk about horses that have missed steps, or holes in their training. So they say you should restart the horse. To me it's not like you're starting over from the beginning and filling in the gaps, it's more like you're unbuilding the horse. Before you give him new information such as trust and calmness, you have to get rid of the fear, the anger, the reactions to pain or poor handling.
> 
> The horse will already have the information he's been given. You can't start from scratch, because he's already got building blocks in place. He'll keep all the blocks he already has, but what you have to do is take them down and rearrange them so they make a nicer structure.


It really almost feels like a puzzle sometimes. You're finding one piece that is important such as the horse has some underlying pain, or he protested but no one listened before. Moving that one piece is helpful, but sometimes you don't see how it changes the whole picture for quite a while. 

Like with Hero, there were so many pieces! His pain, his reaction to the pain, how he felt about people reacting to his reaction....etc. 

It can take a horse a long time to understand that they don't have to react the same way anymore. Last night I took Hero and Amore out for a walk around the property, and Hero just walked with us. He didn't prance, he didn't pin his ears, he didn't try to bite me, he didn't make faces at Amore, he didn't rear or try to spin off and run when faced with a steep downhill. 
So many small changes, but they lead to big things. 
@lostastirrup said it took three years for her to see big changes in her horse. With Amore it was about the same, and with Halla at least two. 
I really like what was said here:


> Quote:
> *Originally Posted by lostastirrup *
> I was talking with a friend of mine, and we were talking about clever damaged horses, I told her it had honestly taken me 3 years to get Nick sorted out, and she said that with her mare it was similar, four years of work before the horse settled and wanted to work with her. I think Wonder is super smart and has his attitude, but he also probably didn't get consist kind work until he came to you, Nick I don't think was beat up more than is usual in Western horse starting tradition, but he carried the resentment and the fear for awhile because it was too much for his sensitivity. I think about your gallop and him deciding to come back, and not overpowering you even though he could, and it reminds why the partnership is probably the most important part of training/developing a horse, that and being able to meet the horse where they are at mentally and emotionally. *I think a lot of horses that get passed around would have turned out broke and good if the riders and trainers had had some patience to ride through what the horse dealt out while it was trying to process.*


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## waresbear

Broke doesn't been broken spirit or body. Broke means breaking the resistance, therefore the horse gives to pressure. Horse gives to pressure of the bit, gives to pressure of your legs, gives to pressure of a lead role, etc. A truly broke horse will give to pressure, example, you should be able to move a horse right over with one finger on his side and pushing it, he feels that pressure and he will move away from it. Breaking a horse's spirit and body is not broke that's abuse.


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## bsms

I agree about holes and retraining. Bandit will never unlearn bucking. At best, he has learned there are more productive ways to communicate frustration. But if someone tried to whip him into obedience, I'd bet he'd start bucking pronto! Mia learned she could ignore a snaffle if she wanted to. Learned not to try it in a curb. Eventually rode her again in snaffles because she had learned she didn't need to run away from scary things. She is now ridden in a bosal in a place where she can see for miles - nothing to fear. I couldn't solve her issues in an arena because she didn't experience them there.

A hole in training is something you want the horse to do that the horse has never learned. Like asking Bandit to change leads. I don't care so he doesn't know. A hole to some people. Something not worth bothering with to me.

Or a hole in training is a trained bad response. Bandit bucking when frustrated because it was the only way he could get attention. Now he has alternatives that gets him what he wants with less drama. So he uses them instead.

I think it is more productive to think of teaching a horse than breaking it. When possible, you don't break down a horse's resistance. You teach it that resistance is silly, not futile. When possible. Although that sometimes requires going toe to hoof with the horse. A horse who has always chosen Gate A may need to have Gate A blocked before he will learn to choose Gate B. But the goal is to get the horse thinking cooperation is pleasant, not that resistance is futile.



> "So, how should I have obtained the response? He didn't listen to my light leg pressure. Why shouldn't I use more if he fails to respond? Well, because of what I just said. Harder and harder pressure makes him more nervous. The way to get him to move is not to bang on his sides, but to 'pester' him until he moves.
> 
> I have never read any book about riding that talks about 'pestering' a horse. They always use the terms like 'Apply the aids,' as if the horse will magically understand what the heck that means.
> 
> But think. Why does a horse swish his tail at a fly? Because the horse knows the fly will bite him if he doesn't get rid of the **** thing. The horse is not terrified by the fly. The fly isn't an attacking mountain lion. It isn't even a stinging wasp. It's a fly. Even an annoying fly will get a horse to respond, but it is not a panicked response.
> 
> *In a way, we riders need to be mildly annoying flies*..." - Denny Emerson, Know Better to Do Better, Mistakes I Made With Horses (So You Don't Have To)


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## gottatrot

Rode the 3 horses today.

Rating them for fun/enjoyable ride:

Bandit - 3 - Too many issues, mainly physical.
Nickel - 8 - Great ride.
Hero - 7 - Not quite as great "all around" as Nickel, but some antics got me laughing so he gained marks for individual style.

First up: Bandit








Brought him out, put his big western saddle on. As with every horse I thought english would be better, but that's not what anyone, ever has ridden him in and I'm doing an eval/exercise for his owner so it's not about me.

The barn owner was around, she had done a lot of training on him. I said his owner was having some issues, her opinion was he just needed more frequent riding. Probably correct. She helped me understand that his browband was not actually a snug fit, it was meant to be a one-ear headstall. Ha ha! Poor horse, I had him squished in there. 

Walked Bandit into the arena, his head went up almost higher than he could put it and eyes looked startled. I wasn't quite sure about that since he has two blue eyes, which throws me off. I led him around a minute and he snorted loudly at the golf cart going around outside, which told me I was reading his eyes correctly. 

Despite his anxiety, he did not zoom or jump anywhere, so I got on. The saddle was comfy, and he was going in an S-hack. Later I heard he had not been ridden much in a hackamore, but he neck reined well most of the time. I rode two handed for backup in case he shot off somewhere. He felt very slightly off, and I'd noticed his hooves were needing a trim and also had icky frogs full of thrush. Still, he jogged around at what he probably considered a good pace but then he started roaring a bit. It was fairly quiet so I wasn't sure at first, but he definitely has some kind of airway issue.

I could feel he was well trained and probably just needed more exercise. He picked up the lead I asked at the lope, very smoothly, but after a few strides tripped on the slightly off foot so I stopped him. Took him outside to the grassy outdoor ring, and he felt less anxious out there, but also wanted to go back to the other horses. When he turned a direction I didn't ask, I turned him back, and felt him building up some angst. I waited for something to happen, being quite used to Hero nowadays. He moved a hoof sideways and gave his head a shake. That was it? Yep. So I had him jog around a bit more. 

Bandit moved better after warming up so I was less concerned, but he was sweating and continued to roar some, even at the walk. My thoughts for my friend are that the vet should take a listen to his breathing - I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to work on fitness unless told the roaring was minor enough. With his training and docile personality a little regular work along with a curb which he is more used to would make him quite easy. 

I let the barn owner know about his mild lameness and she said that hoof always bothers him when he is due for a trim. She's trying to gradually improve the angles - it's rather clubby. My guess is the thrush gets worse in the crack as the heels get longer too. 

Nickel:
First here is a photo from the other day. Some great equitation! Asked for a big trot, then tried to organize it too late. Lurching forward, collapsing through my waist and wrists as my lower leg slides back. Nice. But I ask you, does the horse look happy? :smile::smile:








Here we are looking better. Still poor wrists/lost connection to core.








I was lecturing myself heavily about my own riding, which was good. On the video I made of Nickel's rider, she looked much better. Notice how her hands make a straight line to the bit. 








Today I had a better time riding Nickel, and realized some things which made me a little less self-critical. One is I realized how long he takes to warm up, and then he is easier. He has a very long back. Also the reins are just bad for my hands, too bulky. I have to hold them oddly, which is why I was bending my wrists. Was able to correct that today when thinking about it. I also thinks it takes a little more core strength for me since he is a bigger horse compared to my size.

Anyway, when I tacked him up his hooves also were thrushy looking. I'm hypervigilant of my own horses' frogs, but it's worse with these shod horses. More trapping of moisture. 

But why the 7? Nickel is a versatile boy and I enjoy him a lot. Warmed him up in the indoor, and did some quick transitions. He tried so hard with everything, and was able to do some great ones. I had him gathered up when I asked for the canter, and he collected up so much it felt like we were barely going forward, just leaping up in the air. But super smooth too. Wow.

Then I rode him down the road to our barn, and met up with Nala's rider on Nala. We burned up a couple hills, super fun and good for Nickel's strengthening. Then did a few big loops around the property trails. Nala's rider was just saying how good she was being when she popped up and down, catching her rider in the face and then flashing both hind hooves at Nickel. We decided Nickel should lead. He just strode out on the trails and took everything at a lovely pace. Great inside, great outside. The only place he has been strong so far is the beach. Understandable.

AND the Hero boy:








He started out very calm and slow. We did some trotting and cantering around the property trails, and blasted up some of the same hills as we did with Nickel. Very fun. We'd ridden both horses back to Nickel's barn, I untacked him, and then Nala went back to our barn for more exercise with Hero.

I had to give him one less point than Nickel because he had times where he walked slowly and needed some incentive to go. Finally he got into it. Then, the funny part was near the end of the trail where he got to "Tantering." That's what I call it. He honestly does have little tantrums. He was breaking into a trot when he felt like it to catch up with Nala. So I started making him wait a few seconds longer, and then trot when I asked instead. The second time I held him back, when I asked him to trot he leaped through the air and after that for about ten minutes spent a lot of time "tantering." That is a canter that is much too round and hoppy and tending to go sideways to be a good, proper canter. Basically jigging at the canter.

Well, I laughed at him and had to smack him one with the crop, but soon he got over it and he is certainly calming quickly nowadays. The tantrums are getting shorter. During the tantering I used the extra lift and energy to make him go laterally and around little bushes in the path. Good exercise.

Back at the barn we let both horses loose at the bottom of the hill and watched them gallop up. Even though they are "free," they don't know what to do at the top since they are thinking about their dinner and the other horses come out to the fences to see what is up. So they always just stop and play squealing games with the other horses. 

Ahhh, why do I work...would be nice to just ride multiple horses every day.


----------



## DanteDressageNerd

gottatrot said:


> It really almost feels like a puzzle sometimes. You're finding one piece that is important such as the horse has some underlying pain, or he protested but no one listened before. Moving that one piece is helpful, but sometimes you don't see how it changes the whole picture for quite a while.
> 
> Like with Hero, there were so many pieces! His pain, his reaction to the pain, how he felt about people reacting to his reaction....etc.
> 
> It can take a horse a long time to understand that they don't have to react the same way anymore. Last night I took Hero and Amore out for a walk around the property, and Hero just walked with us. He didn't prance, he didn't pin his ears, he didn't try to bite me, he didn't make faces at Amore, he didn't rear or try to spin off and run when faced with a steep downhill.
> So many small changes, but they lead to big things.
> 
> @lostastirrup said it took three years for her to see big changes in her horse. With Amore it was about the same, and with Halla at least two.
> I really like what was said here:



I really agree about finding pieces and constantly finding more layers. It's deeper than a simple "pain" issue but pain can be a factor, it's psychological and emotional. I really think when it comes to these traumatized horses it is more than a "pain" issue. I think a lot of times people think it can all be solved with a diagnosis and I dont think that is the case. I think these horses also have built up resentment, anger, fear, and other defense mechanisms for self protection. They know things a horse with a "clean slate" does not. I know myself because I have been hit by men, I have a reaction of fear I cannot control when I sense anger in a man and I prepare to defend myself. The body and mind react to memory, I think horses can experienced PTSD and develop different coping mechanisms. Some react in fear and try to get away and others act in aggression like you know what NO, I dont accept it and I stand up for myself. I remember I worked for a natural horsemanship and driving trainer who said, it is our responsibility to show the horse we are different. To show the horse we can read energy and interpret their body language and let them let us in. I remember she had a morgan mare who listened only to energy cues and she said I was the only dressage rider she's put on her who could ride her. And once the mare and I understood each other, she was such a pleasure to ride and work with. That horse really emphasized to me the importance of mental and emotional intent and how to "transfer pictures." I dont know how to explain it, it's a feeling but it's like you project to the horse the expectation and that is what the horse reads. 

I also think a lot of horses will tolerate things say Hero or Nick or Wonder will not. I think some horses can go through trauma and not come out dangerous or that traumatized (depending on what they've experienced in life). And I think all 3 of them have different coping mechanisms to their experiences based on their personality, strengths and weaknesses. I think for Wonder, he learned how to use his strength against a rider and to shut them out of his mind and fight when a rider asked something from him. Vs Nick I think learned to be very fearful and emotional to a rider and learned to react, rather than think. I think Hero goes to spooking and acrobatics and his reasoning maybe is between fear and also not comfortable with a rider having that much influence over him. I think the common factor is all 3 lost faith and trust in humans and came up with different mechanisms to protect themselves. 

I think when you get a horse with an unknown past that has been passed around because it's been labeled "dangerous" and "bad" then you sort of have to accept the horse with the baggage and accept the project. I also think when it's emotional and psychological damage, it takes years to really see the deep changes IF at all. And I really admire and like that you take these horses on too. A lot of people just dont want to deal with it and say pass it on but never think about where these horse's end up. But I also think people dont have the skill or patience to work with these horses. I think when people dont get an immediate result, they give up. And often times their trainers dont have a clue how to work with the horse or problem solve. Or a trainer knows what they're doing but the client is angry because the horse isnt "fixed" with 30 or 90 days because the problem is deeper than the owner realizes. So they pass through trainers. 

I know when I bought Wonder, I bought him from a good owner who had done a lot of work with Wonder. He said he turned down 8 or 9 different buyers who had more money than me because he said they weren't rightfor Wonder and that Wonder is special and would end up abused if placed wrong. At the time I didnt quite understand what he meant, I just thought he was concerned for his horse's welfare but now I know what he meant. Wonder is something someone who doesnt know what they're doing could make absolutely unmanagable and run the show. He is so clever, strong and willful and if he knows he can be in charge, he will. Or if someone was rough with him, he could be made very aggressive, mean and nasty. And I know had he ended up somewhere else, he would have passed hands until he ended up in a kill shelter. And I KNOW for dressage most dressage riders cant ride him or get any kind of quality from him. I put a PSG rider who made her own horse and she could not steer or get Wonder on the bit at all. 

Like with Hero, I have never once looked and thought I could do better. I thought it was interesting to see your approach with Hero and the steps you were taking with him to bring him where you and him want to be. And I could appreciate the work you do with him because it's nice to know other people are working through problems too and step by step making their peace. I appreciate people who "get it" and I appreciate their way. Might not be the same as me but I think different approaches work better for different horses, riders and situations. Many roads to Rome! 

I also agree with bsms about it really depends on what your end goals are for example my goal is to produce a GP dressage horse but my plan is not going to be the same as somebody else. It doesnt make my goal better or worse, just different. I dont look down on anyone because they dont have the same goals, not every horse needs to be a GP horse and not every horse needs to be a dressage horse. Point being I think different disciplines have different end goals and different methods. It doesnt make one necessarily better or worse, just different. And like bsms said, Bandit doesnt need to know how to do a flying change so why teach it? 

I think there are many different types of horses and riders and thank God we're all not the same. Because it gives everyone the opportunity to find where they fit best and are happy. 

I also spoke with the farrier this week about the hoof structure, how they shoe and leg conformation, even within the same discipline depending on goals. Like young horse champions tend to be very long through the pastern to get that big swooping, floaty motion but they cannot collect or stay sound doing high work long term. Different conformations, brains and types based on "purpose." But in regards to hooves, this is what he said, "if I can look at my own work and not find fault then I have grown too arrogant."


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## gottatrot

DanteDressageNerd said:


> But in regards to hooves, this is what he said, "if I can look at my own work and not find fault then I have grown too arrogant."


Very good insights. I quite like this quote. With horses you can never feel like you have arrived. There is always more to learn, and always ways to improve. And I also agree there are many methods that can work well for horses. If I gave Hero to @Knave, he'd be working differently, but I have no doubt what she did would work and it would be good for him.

And now, I saw this on FB and said "Oh no!" DH already teases me about watching the gruesome and senseless violence of the John Wick movies. But you have to admit it's pretty interesting watching Reeves learning to ride a horse. Hero could easily learn that trick of kicking out on command. I didn't realize it could be so useful around bad guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=84&v=G0uNA6TzPB8


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## Knave

Thank you for the compliment Gotta! I agree with you completely. There are a lot of different methods, although I think the psychology is often the same behind them. It makes me almost... I can’t think of the word I want to use, something like dismiss I guess, what someone has to say when they are so adamant that things must be done in one specific way.

I am a good “hired man” so to speak. I am good at following most orders. I watch people around me all want to be boss, and often that puts me in the position to be given several conflicting orders. It makes my anxiety skyrocket, but that’s irrelevant. It shows me though that people often want to cling to their ideas at any cost. Open mindedness would show them that most methods lead to the same result. Lol


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## gottatrot

Beach ride with Nala and Hero tonight. 

As I rode, I was thinking about my riding, and about how dynamic riding really is. There is no posture to achieve, no way to be correct. The horse is always changing, and so must you. Without realizing it, I run through a series of checks, over and over. I guess it is all the years of riding and lessons, which make it fairly subconscious. If I think about it, my brain is constantly doing checks. 

I think about looking where I intend to go. I feel my head raise. 
There is a whole series of checks that happen with my lower body, from how much weight is down my leg, to the position, to where the stirrups are on my foot, to adjusting the right amount of relaxation versus tension for what we are doing at the moment. 
Then there is my back, my pelvis, my hands, my elbows, my wrists, my fingers. My breathing. Check, check, check. Adjust, adjust, adjust.

What is correct one moment might be wrong the next.

There was only one thing wrong, doing my checks, which was that my heart was pounding and I felt a tad unsettled. After a moment, I realized it was due to coffee just before the ride without food to temper it. Something to ignore.

As we started out, Nala's rider noticed Hero was holding his mouth and tongue oddly. I looked over everything, palpated and moved his jaw, looked inside his mouth. He didn't object to the bit on the ride, and was able to eat, but kept doing strange things with his tongue. The only thing I could think of was that I'd noticed the new barn helper had given Hero the wrong hay net the night before. I'd just left it, thinking it was not an issue - the only difference is that it has very small holes. 
We decided perhaps he had been unused to wrangling the hay out like that and maybe strained something in his jaw or tongue.

As we rode, I considered some things. Our first several times cantering and trotting Hero was very balanced and the transitions seemed effortless. On a loose rein, he was using his body well, and adjusting his rate or the length of his gait with my slightest ask. He was with me, and connected. Wow, it was lovely.

After we turned around, Hero was also very relaxed and gave me a swinging walk on a loose rein. Then for some reason, we hit a period of tension. He wanted to trot away and now he had his neck arched over and perhaps some would have thought he looked better than before. However, now he was not with me, he was pushing and tense, and although he was driving forward into the bit he was not coming back into my hands easily and we were pushing against each other. 

With Halla at this point I might have let her speed up in order to let the tension out, but Hero is different. Movement itself does not necessarily soothe him. He is more mental than physical. So I made him drop back to a walk, and got some jigging, and I kept trying to relax my seat and relax the reins until finally he did calm. He is learning to do this faster. 

I pushed his walk out, and soon he relaxed. At that point I shortened the reins again and this time he had the mental ability to be connected with me, and it was much different. Now we were moving balanced and together the way we had earlier on a loose rein. But now he had more energy and tolerated a stronger feel, and we moved forward together, and if I closed my fingers momentarily he would move his balance back toward me. 

In this way we now were able to pick up a canter again without resistance, and then long trotted for awhile. We went away from Nala, and were such a team that Hero ignored the fact that she was hopping and frisking toward the beach exit and I took him in loops and directions away from what he wanted, and he kept his mind with me. 

It was funny, later when we were almost home, he did the same thing as the day before. He tried to rush after Nala, I held him back, and then told him when he could go. The moment I let him forward, he went leaping into the air, very put out. This time I circled him back around and had him try again, and the second time he was able to trot forward calmly. 
We went down a very steep hill, walking strongly. His physical issues have become so minimal - I haven't felt him losing a rear corner from stifle slippage for a few rides now. 

I was thinking about how horses control their bodies, we certainly don't. Having ridden some strong-willed horses, I well understand this. It's all about getting the horse's mind with you. Nickel, who is so docile and light in every setting except the beach so far cannot get his mind with the rider yet on the beach. So he becomes no longer light or docile. 
It's not exactly what type of cues you use, or style of training, but as Knave pointed out, the principles. 

It's an interesting feeling when a western horse on a looping rein gives as much pull back under your body in response to a weight aid as a dressage horse does to a half halt. In either case the horse does the work, but the cues are a lot different.

You really don't have to make a horse work in a certain frame to improve balance and responsiveness to a rider. My lovely light cantering I'm achieving often with Hero now rather than the lurching, unbalanced stuff he was doing a while back has not come from me making him lower his head or curve his neck. 

I'm a big believer nowadays that saddle fit and comfortable hooves are the most important factors for getting strong, loose back muscles. I'd be willing to say conformation was the biggest reason why Hero has strong, rounded back muscles while Nala and Nickel don't, except you can easily see how his shoulder muscles have filled strongly behind the withers and both of the other TBs have atrophy pockets there. Their saddles just don't fit that well. No amount of rounding over the neck or long and low work will help their backs. Great fitting saddles and exercising under those saddles would.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Kind of hard to like your post, gottatrot. I think I'd favor strapping weights to every person there and then using an electric cattle prod to make them 'canter' across the desert. Or just dump them in the ocean for the crabs to eat... I do not understand how "Big Lick" riding is legal. Seems like obvious abuse to me. But a lot of horse riding lessons also strike me wrong. Shouldn't we train new riders to think of the horse as their FRIEND first and foremost? And who would kick their friend every step along the way?


There, now I don't have to say it. 

And to everyone here: I'm a bit scarce at the moment, and can't chime in much, but it's like a patch of sunshine to come here and see how you all care about animals more than you care about your own egos, and how you will question yourselves periodically just to make sure you're not failing to see the forest for the trees.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...As I rode, I was thinking about my riding, and about how dynamic riding really is. There is no posture to achieve, no way to be correct. The horse is always changing, and so must you. Without realizing it, I run through a series of checks, over and over...
> 
> ...I pushed his walk out, and soon he relaxed. At that point I shortened the reins again and this time he had the mental ability to be connected with me, and it was much different. Now we were moving balanced and together the way we had earlier on a loose rein. But now he had more energy and tolerated a stronger feel, and we moved forward together, and if I closed my fingers momentarily he would move his balance back toward me...It's all about getting the horse's mind with you...
> 
> ...I'm a big believer nowadays that saddle fit and comfortable hooves are the most important factors for getting strong, loose back muscles...


They really need a "love" button!

This is what I think is the important part of good riding - riding the horse's mid, while being aware of his body. Not because you control the body, but because it gives clues to the mental state, and you cannot ride the mind if unaware of how THAT horse's mind thinks.

I mentioned how a couple of days ago I cantered Bandit alone in a short section of sandy wash and how he really surprised me with how much power he put into the canter compared to our round pen-arena. Thinking about it...most of our cantering is done with the other horses somewhere behind us. Bandit's job on a group trail ride is no longer to outrun them, but to keep his herd together. With them, he adjusts his speed and even stops on his own to keep them close to him. Solo, we've been going on a dirt road with side-to-side unevenness because of gullies. And rocks set in concrete hard ground. So...maybe that is difficult enough and painful enough that, while willing to obey, he isn't going to get excited.

But solo on a stretch of decent sand? Exciting! Finally! A chance to show what he can REALLY do! Wow! Good fun! But of course, when we were about to hit the branch crossing the wash...didn't want to slow too soon, but did so just in time and with a hard twist to keep us both safe.

Unlike Mia, he was having fun AND keeping totally sane. And he knows I'm not going to get angry because he cantered a few extra strides. Not if he was having fun. 

But when we went down the exact same section of wash the next day, with my wife on Trooper behind us, he showed no interest at all in going fast. He had a herd to take care of and he may understand that "Trooper + wife" means no high speed work. Not prudent for the herd. So he didn't offer and I didn't ask.

Another thread had me thinking last night about "subtle communication" and horses. To me, the constant back and forth between Bandit and I as we negotiate our way thru the n-dimensional hypervolume of our lives is subtle communication. The back and forth exchange. Subtle enough that I don't know how it happens, yet we are doing it.

I think others define it as "_Can I tell my horse to switch from a left lead to a right lead right NOW - THIS stride, not the one before or one after? Can I do so without obvious visual cues?_" In western pleasure, I'm told a "spur stop" is good because you can cue your horse to stop now without moving the reins, impressing the judges. I don't think Bandit would call it subtle!

I once watched an AQHA video of a judge discussing how she judged a WP ride. The judge was talking about how "forward" the horse was, and how incredibly subtle the rider's cues were. I found myself shouting, "She's poking him with her spurs every stride!" And of course, the WP judge and I have very different ideas about what constitutes a forward horse!

I think it boils down to "Body Control". Who does it? The horse or the rider? There is nothing wrong with teaching the horse a game where you ask with detailed cues and the horse picks the right answer at that moment - body control. And to do so, you really DO need to know exactly how each leg is moving at that instant. But there is also nothing wrong with what Mia taught me - that SHE controlled her body just fine so I didn't need to.

Or Bandit, who extends that to "I'm responsible for ALL the horses when we ride". Unless we are solo. When we ride solo, I need to adjust my expectations. And understand I give general guidance which he translates into specific actions. But that he may do what I want by ignoring what I ask...granting me my goal but not the specific act.

PS: Bandit needs a lot more speed work, but I realize now we may need to do that when riding solo. Even if it is only a hundred yards. Solo may be the only time he will think a sprint is prudent.


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## Knave

I think so much subtle conversation goes on that it would be impossible to teach or explain. I feel like when I am riding I am communicating as much as I am thinking. Everything communicates... and often it is subconscious. How much weight is on each hip bone and stirrup is communicating with the horse. Of course, then there are moments of intentional conversation, but all the hidden communication has prepared for the spoken. 

Of course, there are moments of quietness too. Cash hit that easy lope around the pivot on our last ride. Everything was perfect, he was soft and smooth and it was simple. I am sure my relaxed happiness was also a communication to him, just as his ease was to me.


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## gottatrot

Regarding the above two posts, I also can understand why people think horses can read our thoughts. Sometimes communication can be so subtle that you don't really know how you cued the horse, but somehow the horse knew. That's why I think we shouldn't be too quick to punish a horse for anticipating a cue. We might have been actually cuing.

Last night I took Hero and Amore out for a walk. I let Amore loose on the hillside since I knew she'd stay because of all the available grass. Then I lunged Hero a bit on top of the hill, which was a good, more advanced work since the area undulates gently so it is more challenging physically than on the flat. It is good footing though. 

Amore stuck around, Hero got his workout, and did well. By the time I was done it was getting quite dark, and the way back to the barn is along a narrow trail between bushes and creek. So it was a "feel" thing, and I did as I often do on narrow trails, have one horse in front and the other behind, with me walking next to one of them. 

When we got almost to the barn, the path widened, and Hero went shooting past me from behind. I slowed him down, and then Amore went shooting forward. Next, both of them went. So I thought it was just them anticipating getting back to the barn or something, but each time I got them settled and started walking again, one would dart somewhere. 

Finally I realized the lunge line I thought I was holding in my hand all coiled up nicely was actually just the very end. I had dropped the rest which had been slowly uncoiling behind us, swishing through the grass and sand. Once I took care of the very long snake that was stalking us, the horses stopped rushing forward randomly.


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## Knave

I hate when I do that! Not lunge lines, but I have done it more than once with long lead ropes.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I was thinking about how horses control their bodies, we certainly don't. Having ridden some strong-willed horses, I well understand this. It's all about getting the horse's mind with you.


Yes, I think that's a big misconception out there in mainstream riding, and you're spot on, and I think this little group of riders all get this. 




> You really don't have to make a horse work in a certain frame to improve balance and responsiveness to a rider. My lovely light cantering I'm achieving often with Hero now rather than the lurching, unbalanced stuff he was doing a while back has not come from me making him lower his head or curve his neck.


Again, I think that's spot on. The main thing is getting balanced so you're not interfering with the horse's movement, and building up the horse's strength and agility under saddle - which can be done in a number of different ways. My favourite way to do that on a horse in on trails - as you get better, include trails with uphill, downhill, twisty-turny, soft footing, rocky footing (booted if sharp) - and you always have things to see and fresh air and a feeling of freedom - both horse and rider.

When I did ring work - which I haven't for more than two years now, I'm enjoying the trails so much, and I'm not going to horse shows now - then it was sort of like dancing lessons between hiking expeditions. Sunsmart prefers the hiking, and I have to tie my dog up to do ring work because otherwise she will get outraged that we're just going around in small spaces, and try to encourage us to stop with the nonsense and go on a nice walkies with her. My horse is 23 this year and we're in his last 5 riding years, so I want him to have what he likes best.

I like your observation that it's backwards to force a posture on a horse; its posture will pick up naturally when the rider isn't interfering and the horse gets stronger and more supple under a rider with practice. Sort of like, Pilates is about building up the muscle groups in the back and core of humans, which will help with posture, rather than people adopting a forced posture. There's a difference between a well-conditioned, supple human paying attention to their body and how they're standing, and a human forcing on themselves a stiff upright posture that looks more "correct" to onlookers, but it's not really more correct at all because it's using muscles in an artificial and stiff manner that's actually counterproductive to good posture achieved from a combination of increased core and back muscle strength, and suppleness, and an awareness of your body and its posture.




> I'm a big believer nowadays that saddle fit and comfortable hooves are the most important factors for getting strong, loose back muscles. I'd be willing to say conformation was the biggest reason why Hero has strong, rounded back muscles while Nala and Nickel don't, except you can easily see how his shoulder muscles have filled strongly behind the withers and both of the other TBs have atrophy pockets there. Their saddles just don't fit that well. No amount of rounding over the neck or long and low work will help their backs. Great fitting saddles and exercising under those saddles would.


And to teach the object lesson, we need to get riders to do two extended hikes (not on horses, on foot!) on the same hiking trail, one after the other. For the first we will give them terrible shoes and unbalanced, heavy backpacks, constructed the old way to hang off the shoulders. We will have instructors with them on that trail to criticise their posture and walking. For the second go, we will equip them with nice supportive footwear that suits their type of feet / biomechanics, and they can have backpacks with cushioned hip straps and an air gap at the back, which allow them to carry the weight in the pack mostly on their hips and very little of it on their shoulder straps. Then we'll ask them what they preferred.

The problem with a lot of people is that they lack the imagination, empathy and thoughtfulness to put themselves in the position of the horse, to see what their main challenges are, what it's like from the horse's point of view. They'll be full of "shoulds" and "musts" and really have no idea, because they're not understanding the horse's side of it, they're just always wanting the horse to understand their side... sort of like the kind of spouse you're not going to have a happy marriage with, because they're thinking about themselves and what they want from you, instead of putting themselves in your shoes, and trying to understand your own lived experience as a human being, which is different from their own. You can't have partnership without empathy and understanding and fairness and really caring, not with humans and not with horses.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> The problem with a lot of people is that they lack the imagination, empathy and thoughtfulness to put themselves in the position of the horse, to see what their main challenges are, what it's like from the horse's point of view. They'll be full of "shoulds" and "musts" and really have no idea, because they're not understanding the horse's side of it, they're just always wanting the horse to understand their side... sort of like the kind of spouse you're not going to have a happy marriage with, because they're thinking about themselves and what they want from you, instead of putting themselves in your shoes, and trying to understand your own lived experience as a human being, which is different from their own. You can't have partnership without empathy and understanding and fairness and really caring, not with humans and not with horses.


Yes, excellent!

I can't believe how many people treat their horses like a machine, and take the horse that has had a month off any work for a hard ride. I think athletes can understand better how gradual and time consuming the process of getting and staying fit is, and think about how the horse might feel the day after a workout too. 

Speaking of empathy, I've been putting Renegade boots on Hero for most workouts now and have been seeing a difference. I'll call it a learning curve with my first TB. His hooves look pretty good for a TB, he does have some concavity and the hooves are hard and fairly sturdy. But they are certainly not like my Arabs' hooves were. 

I've thought that most of our rides are on grass and sand, the fields are mostly soft, etc. Why wouldn't I ride barefoot? 
However, there are pitfalls with stretches of hard, knobby plant roots that hide in the grass, fifty feet of gravel road here and there. I think it's similar to when I would ride my Arabs on the logging roads. They weren't visibly ouchy going on gravel, but when I put boots on I could tell they were less reluctant to move and also more willing. So the varied terrain we've been going over is the equivalent with these hooves to going over the gravel roads with Arab hooves. Probably the rocks and things Hero would step on now and again would cause little tender spots and all those add up. 

I was hesitant to put boots on since most of our rides are on the sand. But the Renegades have been functioning perfectly well in the sand, and Hero is going much better over all terrain.

I believe taking away whatever level of discomfort there was with his hooves has added to his other feelings of well being. I took him around the barrels in the outdoor arena that made him rear a while back, and he just walked around them very calmly with his head down. 
Going down the beach yesterday on a 7 mile ride with Nala, he was so calm all the way down the beach I thought a beginner could have ridden him. When we turned around, he was more of an intermediate ride, but I am learning so much about helping him. 

If I want him to do cantering stretches, I do them on the way out. Then he can pick them up over and over and go very balanced. On the way home, feeling more tired, he does better if I don't ask for the canter more than once or twice, and instead have him do his big power trot. This works better with his mind since he has more difficulty cantering if he gets excited. That too is getting better, but still is not 100%.

Poor Nala is getting more manageable for her rider, but does not do much speed work anymore. With Halla as a strong leader, she was confident and would gallop off, knowing Halla was coming behind and wanting to reach her. Hero does not want to go fast, and really has no drive to race at all. I did not realize his hooves were at all uncomfortable, but now with boots and his stifles feeling good, he has long periods of being very calm and slow. Yet when he goes he is smoother and more powerful.

Now Nala has to lead, and she doesn't like to. She gets more nervous in front and stares around at everything. She does not want to canter off, because Hero won't follow. So she is doing a lot of slow cantering now while Hero either canters or power trots. 

Next week Nala and Nickel are moving to a new barn, which is a bit sad. Hero will be doing a lot of alone work this winter. However, I am planning to meet up for some rides too.

Yes, I am sympathetic to hard working horses though. I am training for a 6 mile run next month, and after that workout, did our 7 mile ride, and then met up with family for kayaking, which made my upper body sore too. 

My dad is 84 and has always had so many hobbies. He paints, plays piano, reads, learns languages, rides his bike, has an extensive garden, goes mushroom hunting, cooks, you name it. For a few months he has been working on an old duck boat that was sitting in his basement for 35 years. My mom was worried it wouldn't float, but we put it in our truck along with our kayaks and took turns trying out the duck boat too. 

Then we got him both into and out of a kayak to try, which he'd never done. My mom is less adventurous and watched from the shore. Some 5 year old kid was having a lucky fishing day and pulling up all kinds of nice bass from the lake. His mom wasn't catching anything. It was pretty fun for all of us.


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## SueC

Your father really sounds wonderful - it's great when someone in the family you grew up in has lively interests! Brett had that with his mother - she's into all sorts of science, especially astronomy, and art, and craft, and reading all sorts of different nonfiction and fiction books, and watching good dramas, and going walking, etc etc etc. He had a lot of interesting activities growing up as a child, in his actual home! My mother was not interactive; she kept the house clean and cooked and made sure I made my bed, but it was more like having a housekeeper for a mother, than having an actual mother. She actually had no regular hobbies other than shopping and watching television. I could get her to go ice-skating or swimming with me sometimes as a child, but I did most of my interactive stuff with my grandmother when she was visiting (cooking, knitting, crafts, drawing, puzzles, crosswords, reading, real conversations - my grandmother cared about me, and enough to want to know who I was) - and at school, and with my friends.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...The problem with a lot of people is that they lack the imagination, empathy and thoughtfulness to put themselves in the position of the horse, to see what their main challenges are, what it's like from the horse's point of view. They'll be full of "shoulds" and "musts" and really have no idea...


I think we TRAIN people to do this! We give them lessons in how to act this way.

A while back, a woman wrote about her lessons and how her horse was acting up. Seems her lessons were focusing on cantering - and the instructor had her cantering in circles for 30-45 minutes. And the horse was rebelling! No kidding, GI! The main lesson she was learning was her horse didn't matter. He was irrelevant. An ATV that sneezes.

I didn't take a huge number of lessons, thankfully. But in the lessons I took, did anyone ever ask what the HORSE wanted to do? I don't think so! Not a chance. Instead we were taught to bully the horse into submission. At Samur, the French Cavalry was taught "_The horse should believe God is on his back and the Devil (spurs) at his belly_". YEGADS! But it is no different from "Ask, Tell, DEMAND".

I think horses understand actual work, be it moving sheep, cutting cattle, traveling from A to B (and often back to A). They can understand racing and jumping if not overdone. A genuinely understanding rider can convince them dressage and WP are fun games and a chance to show off - IF they can find an understanding rider!


> "We should keep calm, and at the slightest sign of cadence, that is to say, at the first, or later on, at the second time, we should stop using the "aids", pat the horse's neck, give him time to become quiet, and begin again.
> 
> A horseman who has great delicacy and tact, will stop the animal at the first time and pat him. But the less tact he has, the less capable is he of judging if the time is in cadence. Such a man will continue in his attempts to catch the cadence, and will succeed only in upsetting the nerves of his horse. These remarks explain the fact that a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle, which will wear them both out.
> 
> The unskillful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs. - James Fillis (1834-1913) Breaking and Riding: With Military Commentaries


Between weather and school, Bandit hadn't been out last week. Did 30 minutes of riding in the arena because the ATVs and motorcycles were out on the trails (I could hear them). We did brief canters, brief trots, multiple stops to grab a mouth of the grass growing from the rain. For canters, since it is so tight a circle, I've taken to riding him out to the road, turning him, asking him to stand, and THEN asking for a straight canter. For all 100-110 feet max. And then a munch stop. He understand this:








much better than this:








I too fall into the trap of "_But what I want to do..._" Incidentally, he then canters much more like his trail canter. Which is what I want to practice. Not the "Canter in a tight circle" canter that teaches us both bad habits!

He was totally fine with that. "_A brief canter for you. Then a few mouthfuls for me. A fast trot around for you. Munchies for me. Life is good!_" But of course, no one teaches lessons in riding that way! I've watched plenty of YouTube lessons, read plenty of books, and not one has ever said, "_Make sure your horse feels good about what you are doing._"

Too many instructors have no business instructing ANYTHING about horses. Far too many lessons are about how to ride badly. Hard to blame the students for learning what an instructor with 30+ years of experience (and lots of ribbons) teaches them.


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> I think we TRAIN people to do this! We give them lessons in how to act this way.


I don't! :razz: :cheers:

But I know what you mean, because many riding books, and horse forums, are full of this misguided stuff!

I also think that the amount of confidence people have to teach their way as "the right way" is often inversely proportional to the quality of their insights!

...and that the lack of empathy and understanding many people have for horses also shows up more widely in their lack of empathy and understanding for people, and any other species. I've found many of the worst people as pertains to horses, including on this forum, both the loudest and most insistent on their rightness, and the most condescending, dismissive and rude to people who think differently to themselves. Not the sort of people I would invite to my home, or have anywhere near my animals. :evil:


----------



## gottatrot

We are getting ready to take a trip for a couple of weeks, driving through Glacier, Yellowstone and around Wyoming. Should be very fun. I have a friend in Cody who I haven't seen since I was 19, just followed on FB. She has horses, and may take me for a ride when we stop by to visit. 

Of course I'm a little worried/wary about Hero going two weeks without formal exercise. There is no one currently at the barn who can help out. 

A sad thing is that Nala and Nickel moved to a barn in the country about 25 minutes away. But the positive is that Hero can now use Nala's much larger night corral, which is probably about a quarter acre. His old pen was about the size of four regular horse stalls. Possibly that might make all the difference for him, even without formal exercise.

Tonight I took Hero out for a ride to the beach alone, something we will have to get used to doing a lot more. Last February was when his anxiety on the beach led him to spook and kick me in the knee. He had a couple of small spooks tonight, but he is quite a different horse now.

Even though we haven't been out alone in a while, it was near dark and very windy, Hero was willing and calm most of the time. Since I was running out of time before dark, it was only a 45 minute ride. But the differences were amazing. There was zero bouncing, biting, hopping, chomping, kicking, rearing, or anything like that. Hero was just walking with his head fairly low, and straight down the dune, down the beach, and when I turned around for home he also just walked and didn't try to rush or show signs of anxiety.

The barn dog popped out behind us a few times, and that is what caused the couple of small spooks. But he was easily reassured. I was using his new bit I had bought him, a kimberwicke without any hooks or chain, because I'd been using his kimberwicke on the snaffle setting for a while now and I thought it would just be easier to not have to fuss with the chain. 

He really likes that smooth, unjointed mouthpiece with the port that is on your basic kimberwicke, and I thought it was easiest and cheapest to just buy that instead of trying to find the equivalent in a D snaffle. Ebay special, $15. 

We'll see if he goes backward at all after a couple weeks off. I'm currently only giving him one real work a week, along with several less intense sessions. He is maintaining really well on that schedule. That has been good for me since it's what I've done for my horses even when training for endurance rides. They can maintain a good level of fitness with one long ride and some shorter sessions. Which is good, because it's tricky to consistently do more between work and the weather. 

He's doing great with his Renegade boots and I'm just putting all four on now for rides, so he can stomp along wherever and be comfortable.

Note to self: Anxiety in horses can be exponentially increased by pain, possibly even small amounts of pain. Trust in a human can be exponentially increased if training sessions occur with decreased pain. I'm thinking that Hero is feeling more positive about our working relationship than any he has had previously, because it involves less pain and that alone makes it far more positive.


----------



## Knave

I am so sorry Nala and Nickel moved! That must feel like a blow.

On another note though the trip sounds like it will be a blast, and I am glad Hero has improved.


----------



## lostastirrup

gottatrot said:


> We are getting ready to take a trip for a couple of weeks, driving through Glacier, Yellowstone and around Wyoming. Should be very fun. I have a friend in Cody who I haven't seen since I was 19, just followed on FB. She has horses, and may take me for a ride when we stop by to visit.
> 
> Of course I'm a little worried/wary about Hero going two weeks without formal exercise. There is no one currently at the barn who can help out.
> 
> A sad thing is that Nala and Nickel moved to a barn in the country about 25 minutes away. But the positive is that Hero can now use Nala's much larger night corral, which is probably about a quarter acre. His old pen was about the size of four regular horse stalls. Possibly that might make all the difference for him, even without formal exercise.
> 
> Tonight I took Hero out for a ride to the beach alone, something we will have to get used to doing a lot more. Last February was when his anxiety on the beach led him to spook and kick me in the knee. He had a couple of small spooks tonight, but he is quite a different horse now.
> 
> Even though we haven't been out alone in a while, it was near dark and very windy, Hero was willing and calm most of the time. Since I was running out of time before dark, it was only a 45 minute ride. But the differences were amazing. There was zero bouncing, biting, hopping, chomping, kicking, rearing, or anything like that. Hero was just walking with his head fairly low, and straight down the dune, down the beach, and when I turned around for home he also just walked and didn't try to rush or show signs of anxiety.
> 
> The barn dog popped out behind us a few times, and that is what caused the couple of small spooks. But he was easily reassured. I was using his new bit I had bought him, a kimberwicke without any hooks or chain, because I'd been using his kimberwicke on the snaffle setting for a while now and I thought it would just be easier to not have to fuss with the chain.
> 
> He really likes that smooth, unjointed mouthpiece with the port that is on your basic kimberwicke, and I thought it was easiest and cheapest to just buy that instead of trying to find the equivalent in a D snaffle. Ebay special, $15.
> 
> We'll see if he goes backward at all after a couple weeks off. I'm currently only giving him one real work a week, along with several less intense sessions. He is maintaining really well on that schedule. That has been good for me since it's what I've done for my horses even when training for endurance rides. They can maintain a good level of fitness with one long ride and some shorter sessions. Which is good, because it's tricky to consistently do more between work and the weather.
> 
> He's doing great with his Renegade boots and I'm just putting all four on now for rides, so he can stomp along wherever and be comfortable.
> 
> Note to self: Anxiety in horses can be exponentially increased by pain, possibly even small amounts of pain. Trust in a human can be exponentially increased if training sessions occur with decreased pain. I'm thinking that Hero is feeling more positive about our working relationship than any he has had previously, because it involves less pain and that alone makes it far more positive.


Youre coming through my neck of the woods! Enjoy glacier! It's gorgeous I'm told- though I havent been yet. Which entrance will you do Yellowstone from? My personal favorite is the Gardiner northern entrance. Although the elk are nearly tame. There's a great spot to go hot potting on the river near there. Bring a coat. We've already had our first freezes and I wouldn't be surprised by snow.


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## bsms

I once lived in Logan Utah. I tried to time my visits to Yellowstone so I'd be there just before snows really hit. That was around 1980. Back then it meant Yellowstone would be almost empty. I've watched Old Faithful when I was the only person watching. I also was snowed on during a 4th of July in Bozeman. Not a LOT of snow but part of why I don't want to live in Wyoming or Montana. Western Montana is spectacular. I like Wyoming too. In the summer.

Feel like I've been neglecting Bandit. The classes I'm taking at the community college are essentially online classes that require attendance at lectures. But EVERYTHING except the lecture is online. It is a learning curve for someone who still likes his flip phone. But tuition is $1000 for 12-15 credits compared to $6,000 at the university. Still, between hot afternoons when I'm free but it is over 100 degrees, and days like today where I want to ride but it is raining, and times when I need to do 3-4 hours of homework, I'm not getting much riding done.

Took Bandit out a few days ago solo. We hadn't been out for a week or more. And he acted like he had been out the previous couple of days.

"_Note to self: Anxiety in horses can be exponentially increased by pain, possibly even small amounts of pain. Trust in a human can be exponentially increased if training sessions occur with decreased pain. I'm thinking that Hero is feeling more positive about our working relationship than any he has had previously, because it involves less pain and that alone makes it far more positive._" - @gottatrot

I think that is Bandit. His previous owner genuinely cared for Bandit but I think a lot of the riding was painful. 220-230 lb guy riding an 800 lb horse? A 270 lb guy sometimes riding him? Running him for miles?

Then here, without hoof boots, I think his front feet got sore. I didn't mean any harm but I didn't know. Much like his first owner. At my heaviest I was 180-185 and Bandit is easily 850-900 lbs now, and I wasn't insisting he run. But I think the hoof boots have helped him mentally. The low level pain is gone. "*First, do no harm.*" The more we can not do harm, the easier it is for a horse to trust us. And feel good about working with us. 11 years in, I'm convinced the key to a good horse is letting the horse BE a horse with us, and freeing him up as much as possible by teaching him and minimizing our impact (literally and figuratively) instead of dominating him. Do no harm. See if there are things he likes to do and make sure he gets a reward of some sort by our riding and so many issues go away.

How do you keep a horse from trying to move away when you mount? Make riding something he WANTS instead of dreads. Convince him you ENABLE him instead of control him. That when you get on his back, good things will follow. But darn it all, outside of HF journals, how often do you see YouTube videos or books or articles about making riding pleasurable FOR THE HORSE?
*
It is so nice to read journals by people who want happy horses and not just obedient ones!​*


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## SueC

Awwww, after all this I just want to :hug: everyone here! 

Unless you're allergic - anyone here allergic?

My husband isn't a social hugger - _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_ is his ultimate nightmare! :rofl: He's a one-person hugger and feels uncomfortable making physical contact socially, even with friends. I think his favourite thing would be to do Japanese-style bows. So if you're like that, I will offer you a bow!


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## gottatrot

lostastirrup said:


> Youre coming through my neck of the woods! Enjoy glacier! It's gorgeous I'm told- though I havent been yet. Which entrance will you do Yellowstone from? My personal favorite is the Gardiner northern entrance. Although the elk are nearly tame. There's a great spot to go hot potting on the river near there. Bring a coat. We've already had our first freezes and I wouldn't be surprised by snow.


Thanks for the advice. A lot of places we've traveled or want to travel to say they have all four seasons in a day...at least I've read that about New Zealand, and my belief is if you plan that way, it's the safest bet. I plan to bring shorts, a parka, rain gear, light dri fit and sweaters. 








My coworker went to Alaska and only brought shorts!! @egrogan just went to the Grand Canyon, and I made a mistake one hot day hiking down in the Canyon, not realizing it would get down almost to freezing as soon as the sun went down. So we walked quite a ways at twilight in our light hiking clothes, with me freezing (DH seems to have Scottish or Viking blood...he does not suffer from cold and wonders why I am jumping around and flapping my arms). 
I also could have worn more clothes for an early hike at Bryce Canyon...the temperature fluctuations in the desert are incredible. Where we live, all the water moderates the temperatures and if it is 60 in the daytime it's not going below 45 at night. 

We're going in the West Yellowstone entrance this time, driving across to the East. We've been in the South and North entrance, and I did love the Gardiner entrance in the springtime, we saw baby elk in the river and bears. 



> I've watched Old Faithful when I was the only person watching. I also was snowed on during a 4th of July in Bozeman. Not a LOT of snow but part of why I don't want to live in Wyoming or Montana. Western Montana is spectacular. I like Wyoming too. In the summer. @Bsms


Wow, that would be crazy to be alone at Old Faithful. We're kind of hitting the end of the shoulder season...looks like it will be hard to find places open to eat up at Glacier.



> "First, do no harm." The more we can not do harm, the easier it is for a horse to trust us. And feel good about working with us. 11 years in, I'm convinced the key to a good horse is letting the horse BE a horse with us, and freeing him up as much as possible by teaching him and minimizing our impact (literally and figuratively) instead of dominating him. Do no harm. See if there are things he likes to do and make sure he gets a reward of some sort by our riding and so many issues go away. @Bsms


So, so true. I keep thinking about the rider who was having issues but cantering her horse for a half hour in an arena. Sometimes I wish that the first part of horsemanship lessons would be learning how to empathize. 

Something I remember from basketball practice was a feeling of powerlessness when the coach had us doing drills. I loved playing and practicing, but during those times I was in charge of my own body. During drills, I would get this anxious feeling because I didn't know how many ladders we were going to have to run, or how long we were going to have to do a certain exercise. I would get this worry that somehow I would not be able to complete, that my body would give out. That was because I didn't know how much I should hold in reserve, or how to pace myself.

This seems silly, because before I played on a team I was a distance runner, and would do 5 mile runs or longer all the time. But mentally, having someone who tells you to sprint but you have no idea if there will be three sprints or twenty...for me it was anxiety inducing. 
Sometimes I wonder if a horse feels like this in an arena. Like they're doing basketball drills with a coach who may or may not feel evil that day, and who might make them do three circles or maybe a hundred. Maybe the horse would be willing if he knew it was only going to be three, but might refuse because he thinks it might be a hundred and he doesn't have the physical or mental stamina for that.



> My husband isn't a social hugger - My Big Fat Greek Wedding is his ultimate nightmare! He's a one-person hugger and feels uncomfortable making physical contact socially, even with friends. I think his favourite thing would be to do Japanese-style bows. So if you're like that, I will offer you a bow! @SueC


I am not a hugger either, so I like the bowing. But virtual hugs are fine by me!


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## Knave

I like hugging, although as I age I notice I am more surprised when someone touches me. When I was young, like a teen, I was used to everyone being around me. I wasn’t at all claustrophobic and my social anxiety was very minimal. As I walked through the halls I was constantly touched. 

I would have even called myself a touchy person, and now I am rarely touched by anyone except my girls and husband. It takes me a second of uncomfortable surprise when I am touched. When I am the start of the hug it doesn’t bother me at all, but I guess I am choosing who I am comfortable with then.


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## gottatrot

Something that is awkward about hugging is that everyone does it differently, like handshakes. 

So somehow to me it always feels like the other person thought I did it wrong. 
Exception is DH, he somehow can match a hug and do it exactly the same intensity and length as the other person. 

I have a cousin who comes in like she's going to really hug you tightly, and then it's like a whiff and she's gone. Meanwhile, you're left squeezing her and feeling like she's trying to escape. 

But I swear, if I start out light, the other person squeezes harder, and then if I return the squeeze, it goes too long and they're exiting. 

They should give classes or something. I mean, what if you squeeze and the other person squeezes...are you supposed to squeeze again? I think I've done that, and then it got weird. It is kind of cute though if someone doesn't let you go after, as long as they are a dear relative or friend, not a creeper. And just how tight are you supposed to hug? Sometimes doesn't it feel like you went too light and the other person was disappointed? Or you laid it on too strong? 
Hee hee.

I've never done a horse hug wrong though. They are non-judgmental.


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## Knave

Lol! That made me smile Gotta. I don’t like hugging people who don’t like to hug. I think those are mostly the light people. My family are not huggers, then there was me running around hugging everyone probably embarrassing the crap out of them. Lol. When you hug someone in my family they try and one arm it and keep their body from touching any part of yours. It’s this one arm grasp shoulder and release, and if your committed it is exceedingly awkward.

It’s always the little kids who commit. They come in trying to wrap their arms around someone with a confused look as they are pulled into the one arm grasp while the other person tries to move their body as if acid might touch them. This is where you roll your eyes and laugh a little embarrassed. It seriously took me too long to realize not to touch certain people.

Sunday we went to the in laws. I was introduced to the cutest little thing. I reached my hand out to shake and she was coming in for a hug and kind of cowered. I of course hugged her, but it was interesting the way she seemed to cow like a puppy who thought he was bad. Maybe she was afraid I would think she was acidic?


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## SueC

Mmmmh, I hate it when people nearly asphyxiate me with a hug - or nearly crack ribs. Same goes for handshaking - we knew this guy called Tony when we lived in Tasmania for a while, whose surname we have forgotten because we immediately referred to him as 'Tony Handshake' to each other - because he crushed your metacarpals nearly to breaking when greeting you. I was so taken aback - first I thought it was a dominance thing or that he was nasty, but with knowing him a few months (same workplace) I thought he was actually oblivious. But, I did tell him, "Gentle please!" when I couldn't avoid shaking his hand. 

I don't think of hugging as conversation or turn-taking, the main thing to me is just to do a warm enfold like a friendly, gentle bear. I don't squeeze or move, I just sort of drape my arms around a person and put my head on their shoulder and hold for a second or two, then step back and smile. I don't think you can go wrong like that, so long as the other person has indicated they'd like to hug, either by making a hug gesture or because I've asked.

Speaking of icky things, as a kid I hated it when people slobbered on my cheek to greet me. It was adults, and it was wet and smelly.  I couldn't get rid of the smell until I'd washed my face. I don't think adults should slobber all over children. Thankfully, I've not been slobbered on as a adult - except by dogs (not Jess, she's non-slobbering), but not on my face because I keep that away!


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## bsms

My youngest daughter is a hugger. I'm more of a "wave from 6 feet away" type myself. At the church I go to, they always have a time near the beginning where everyone is supposed to circulate and "greet" each other. I try to time my arrival for AFTER the "Grip & Grin". 

It is a common thing in a lot of Baptist churches. Always makes me think about becoming Catholic, or some other variety that allows monasteries... ;>)

When I had dirt on my face as a kid, my Dad would spit on his finger and rub the dirt off. Or in. It wasn't like I had a choice, but I always thought, "_Great! My dirt has become dirty spit. That is sooooo much better!_" :evil: I understand dogs licking. They are dogs. Dogs lick. Horses sneeze. But I figure a human ought to know not to lick or sneeze on someone. Maybe I'm channeling my inner Howard Hughes, but really? Spit on your finger and rub a bit of good, clean dirt of someone's face? That is beyond weird.


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## Knave

Spit is a problem for me @bsms and @SueC. I wouldn’t mind being kissed, as my husband’s grandmother was a kisser and I could get into that habit. This will sound not right, but she was a good kisser. Not like I would kiss a boy of course, but it was a nice kiss she had for everyone.

Now, I have been kissed by other grandmothers that were not nice kisses. Too spitty... I have a massive ick factor with saliva. My mother would do like your father, and that was never okay. I cannot stand that. Kissing boys growing up I felt the same; if they were spitty they could bid me adieu. Ick.

It is funny. My family is so non touching that I had a conversation about that today in defense of my oldest. Apparently if one holds hands with a boy it is a big deal, let alone to kiss a boy. So, I had to express that I think it is okay for high schoolers to hold hands and possibly kiss without intending marriage.


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## SueC

mg: @bsms and @Knave, not you too with parents using their spit to "clean" your face? My mother did that, and rubbed really hard into the bargain, and if I objected I'd get shoved with an elbow or smacked across the face. :evil: Some parents really don't understand that children too are human beings and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. They'd not stand for someone using spit to "clean" _their_ faces, but don't think twice about doing this to little humans. 

Anyone here familiar with the horrible sensation of having your ears brushed raw with one of those metal-point hairbrushes, and then being told to hold still, and yanked about if you don't? Or having tangles literally ripped from you? :shock:

I didn't like being a child. I enjoy being an adult and not having this sort of thing done to me, and having recourse when someone takes liberties with me.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Anyone here familiar with the horrible sensation of having your ears brushed raw with one of those metal-point hairbrushes, and then being told to hold still, and yanked about if you don't? Or having tangles literally ripped from you? :shock:
> 
> I didn't like being a child. I enjoy being an adult and not having this sort of thing done to me, and having recourse when someone takes liberties with me.


Well...you haven't hit the nursing home yet, LOL. Everything goes back in that direction.


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## Knave

Hahahahaha Gotta! I actually thought the nursing home looked fun; I didn’t take that into consideration... hmmm

I actually don’t think the parental cleaning of a cheek was what made me hate spit, although as a parent I asked the child to clean the spot with their own spit. Lol. I think maybe it is because the older kids would hold me down and do the whole loogie spit into face and sucked back up all of the time. Also the grass up the nose and the poking of the chest. If someone pokes me today I will about come unglued. I would be the worst horse; touch me with a spur and you will die. Lol


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## egrogan

I would like to add tickling to this list of things with "ick factor"- I despise that. Spit doesn't really bother me, to be honest :hide: 
But generally speaking, I don't like being touched either. The organization I work for has a big hugging culture, and we actually had a really funny conversation about it at a work dinner a couple of months ago; we went around the table and asked people to be honest about how they felt about hugging- turned out there were quite a few of us who hated it but went along because that was the culture. We joked about getting t-shirts made to differentiate who was who...















But actually, just having the conversation did help. I get far fewer work hugs now!


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## Knave

That is funny @egrogan, and good for thought.

What an interesting conversation Gotta, sorry for the major sidetracked discussion, but it is interesting. 

I wonder about who I have hugged that feels like some of you, and made uncomfortable. I know that feeling too, and I feel awkward when some people hug me anymore. I think people I don’t know, because it is just odd, and people I don’t like. Rude of me to not like some people...

I wonder how many people are conundrums like myself. I am a hippy (although I am not really a hippy). I don’t care who’s naked or if I am naked, and I love love, and yet there is the whole social anxiety that makes me feel the opposite of that spectrum and I also am a stickler about morals and could almost be classified a prude (again, not really a hippy). So it is funny to give myself too much thought, an exceptionally boring person in a lot of ways.


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## egrogan

@*Knave* , I think I actually know exactly what you mean. I probably wouldn't call myself a hippy, but I don't know, "earthy" or "farmy" or something? I have to remind myself when I'm staying in a hotel in the city that I can't just walk around naked because not everyone is cool with looking in a window and seeing that  I would differ in that "morals" don't ever really occur to me, at least not as something I'd say apply universally to people (I have my own set of "rules to live by," but not motivated by any kind of higher power)...I guess I just feel like people should move through the world treating people well and not really worry too much about what other people are doing as long as they aren't actively hurting others. Maybe that comes from spending a lot of time away from people, it's easier to accept weirdness when you are used to just relying on doing your own thing to get things done, and knowing other people are doing the same. Not sure if that makes sense. At the end of the day, I guess I'll just always be more comfortable surrounded by nature and animals than a bunch of people posturing to show off to others- some things that people invest so much time and energy in to "look good" would never occur to me :shrug:


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## lostastirrup

@bsms I used to attend a Baptist Church and it was similar now I oscillate between Presby and Lutheran, and it hasn't improved in that regard. Though I have not gone full Catholic. Although- to be fair Lutherans are much more likely to pin you down to request a hot dish for the upcoming potluck than they are to assault you with trivial niceties, which I would say is an upgrade. When I was attending church with my parents (my mother was the only extrovert among us) my brother, my father and I would dutifully shake each other's hands to fulfill the social requirement of the time, and then sit down as fast as we could in hopes no one would notice us. My mother would usually have to hustle back across the sanctuary to make the next song, she'd wandered so far and had gotten so engrossed in meeting other people. It takes all kinds I suppose. 


As for sloppy kisses and the ol spit bath- for some reason slobber makes me itch. So it's a no go with men or mother's for me. I'm particular about that. Although I will say that as a child my poor mom was often validly aghast at how much of dirty bleeding mess and the spit bath, before some event where I had to be presentable, came in clutch. 

As for hugging- I think it depends. I have hugged people who did not look like they wanted to be hugged- namely a grandma who is so standoffish (she's lovely and super loving, just very reserved) that it was 50 years past having children that she would hang up the phone with a "love you. Bye" she was one you give a light squeeze and then move on quickly. And then after about 6 years of adult me giving routine brief hugs, I got one back. Part of me wonders if she's so so shy that it's hard for her to initiate, but she likes it, and will show it in other ways, smiles, walks and hand pats and a "say since you've weeded the garden let's sit down for tea awhile, I have some special shortbread I've been hanging onto and we can eat it" as for myself I don't mind hugs. I'm a youngest child and they went with the territory I suppose of being in a large extended family and quite small and carryable. 

Since it's so hard to tell with people- and it's not cut and dry "extroverts love physical touch, and introverts don't" I suspect that ergrogan's t-shirt idea might be quite nice. Or at least colored wrist bands or something like that.


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## Knave

@egrogan that is it! We’ll rename it to something different. I am definitely more comfortable with the animals and the land. When I called myself a stickler on morals I didn’t mean for anyone else. Judging isn’t my thing at all. I actually like listening to people more interesting than myself, and the people I choose for friends are the same way. No judgement at all from them. The morals are only for my own behavior, and not because of rules just because of wanting to be kind. 

I think @lostastirrup is right. It’s not cut and dry.


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## knightrider

This journal has taken such an interesting turn! I am really enjoying it. My family is Scotch/Irish/Native American and not huggy at all. But my mother said that I loved to be held from the day I was born. I let anyone hold me for as long as they wanted to. And I still love hugs and touching.

From Egrogan:


> I would like to add tickling to this list of things with "ick factor"- I despise that. Spit doesn't really bother me, to be honest


This is me, exactly. I will hurt you bad if you try to tickle me. Spit, I don't mind. My mom used to clean me up by spitting on her handkerchief (or her finger) and I thought it was cute, like a mama cat cleaning up her kitten. I liked to imagine myself as an animal a lot when I was a kid.

Hey, that reminds me. This is gross. My dad was a amateur ham radio operator and we had ham radio towers on our place. We had platforms up high on some of them. The neighbor kids and my siblings used to lay on the platform and spit on the person climbing the ladder. The idea was to climb as fast as you could and try not to get spat upon, ducking and dodging as you climbed. We called it "spit battles." It was fun. We also had teams that threw horse poo balls at each other as we hid behind our "forts." That was fun too. Those were the days when moms were busy and as long as we were outside out of her way, she didn't bother too much about what we were doing.


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## SueC

@knightrider, maybe your mom's saliva smelled of roses, or you have a "deaf" nose? ;-) :hug:

@egrogan, re tickling - yes, totally with you. So unpleasant and just because it makes you laugh doesn't mean you find it funny... that's just a reflex. My older brother was a bully who tickled me dreadfully when I was little, and the adults thought it was funny and did nothing about it. (They also seemed cool with him hitting me, but that's another story.) Once in my early 30s I was dating a guy who turned out to be narcissistic - it took me a couple of weeks to see through his "charm" and popularity with all and sundry. He also tried to tickle me knowing, because I said so, that it made me uncomfortable. One time he did it and I told him to stop, and said I'd told him this before and would he attend to what I was saying please. He immediately tickled me again, and I slapped his face very hard for that so his cheek turned red, and I was livid, and said, "If you can't stop when I tell you I'm uncomfortable, maybe you will only stop if it makes _you_ uncomfortable!" It seems that was the case - he never tried that again, and minded better in future when I said "no" about anything. Of course, he twisted it so I was the bad guy - the violent woman. That's so laughable - I can count the number of times I've deliberately slapped another human in my life on the fingers of one hand, and have change left over. Perhaps I should have done it more, and earlier, since asking nicely doesn't stop the real pieces of work. :evil: I've never ever deliberately made another person uncomfortable for "fun" and maybe those people need a good slap in their faces... Love the T-shirt signs! :bowwdown:

@bsms, so I will remember to greet you like this: :bowwdown: ...which also much reduces the transfer of bacteria! ;-) ...and that may or may not be a good thing, depending on whether it's immune-stimulating or the Bubonic plague...

The nursing home indeed, @gottatrot! :rofl:

Really interesting to read what everyone is saying about this!


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## gottatrot

Really fun to read about everyone's thoughts on tickling and hugging. The horse poo fights cracked me up. I've read people saying tickling is bad since they also felt bullied by it. But I think that also is an individual thing because I've met kids that kept egging me on to tickle them more, and also I liked being tickled as a kid. My grandpa was so funny, he would sit in the back seat of the car with the kids, and then wait until my mom wanted us all to be quiet. Then he'd tickle us until we laughed, and my mom would get very mad that we were getting loud when we were supposed to be quiet. We'd protest, "It's grandpa!!" He thought it was hilarious.

I'm behind on the forum because I'm in Wyoming right now, about a week into our vacation. It's been fun, I'll share pictures after we get home. 

I've had some new insights into horse keeping outside of my own little bubble. I visited a friend in Cody, and it turns out she moved to Oregon several years ago and brought her three horses. She had lived near the coast, several hours south of me. We hadn't been in touch at the time, so I didn't know she had moved there.

I've always thought of Wyoming and some of these other very dry, cold areas as being very difficult to keep horses. Logically, I know that horses are better suited for drier, colder weather, but still I've thought that way. 

My friend had brought her horse keeping knowledge to Oregon, and had failed miserably. A friend had offered her a pasture with several acres, and a place to live. So she'd packed up her three horses along with about ten tons of hay in the middle of summer and thought she'd do pretty well.

I couldn't believe that she had no concept of hay barns or winter pasture in Oregon. At my friend's house, she had bales of beautiful hay stacked up in her driveway. I asked her what she would do with it when winter came, and she told me it just would sit right there, outside! Apparently when she had come to Oregon, she had expected to stack her hay outside and that her horses would also get nutrition from the nice grass in the pasture. That soon all turned to muck, her horses dropped weight dramatically and she lost all except for two tons of her hay to mold. She didn't know our hay cost so much, or what it would cost to board three horses here, so by December she packed up her now thin horses and drove back to Wyoming.

After visiting with my friend, I noticed driving around Wyoming that there was hay stacked up and sitting outside, everywhere! At first I had thought it had just been harvested and was waiting for a big truck to bring it somewhere. But no, there is apparently no need to put hay inside of buildings like we do in Oregon.

Our pastures look very green in the winter, but all the rain washes the nutrients out and horses would starve on it without hay. My friend didn't know we also have to feed Selenium, since the soil in WY has Selenium. She told me she feeds hay in the summer, while keeping her horses on mostly dry lot and watering her fields. Then in the winter, even with the snow, she barely has to feed hay since that green grass in the fields will actually feed the horses. Her beautiful hay had been given to her free, by a friend with surplus. But when she buys hay it is very cheap and she normally doesn't even need to blanket and the horses do very well. 

It just seemed so strange to me that our mild climate which seems so easy to survive actually makes it a lot more expensive to keep horses. There are hardly any boarding facilities in WY, because it's not hard to keep horses in your backyard with a little property. I am realizing it does take a lot of work, money, extra supplements and such to keep horses where I live. So I have to take that into consideration when people say things like "keep it simple," and such, probably in a lot of areas it really is quite simple and horses stay healthy with grass that doesn't have all the nutrients wash out and the other various things that plague horses in a damp environment.


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## bsms

One of the things that worries me about moving as far north as Utah is not knowing what I would need to keep horses where snow is frequent. My friend there has horses living on 10-20 acre pastures with supplemental hay. But if I only have 2 acres, will it turn to mud? And as you noticed, there aren't a lot of boarding facilities. I'm sure I can learn but my horses might suffer while I learn.


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## Knave

This is a good reminder for all of us! I live where it is pretty easy to be a horse owner. Supplements are a silly excess (unless a horse has an actual problem of course), and it seems people over exaggerate the difficulties in being a horse owner sometimes when I read. Hoofcare, worming and hay are the only true necessities.


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## gottatrot

Finally found the internet again. A couple of days ago it was so interesting, we came across a scene that made me think of @Knave. 

We were 35 miles from a small town, and then after going down a gravel road a few miles past a ghost town, we were about ten miles further down gravel roads. There we came across a man with his wheel off and truck stuck in a bank. His cell phone had no service, but mine actually did so he tried to call a friend with no answer. 

It seemed unlikely we could offer him a ride since we were heading farther into nowhere. But it turned out he was going that way too. He pointed to a dark blob on the horizon and said it was a bunch of cowboys rounding up cattle, and he needed to go to his camp just a little farther than that. He was supposed to be also rounding up cows that day.

This man was around 50, and wearing heavy clothes. It must have seemed odd to get into our car, with DH wearing his cargo shorts and tee shirt. It was a stormy, rainy day but we were only going to be out in the elements several hours. 

It was true, soon we came upon a group of horse trailers and a corral with chutes, and it was just like one of Knave's pictures. There were about 15 people on horses, mostly men and maybe one woman and a kid. They were all heading out into the surrounding land which had no fences, to add cows to the ones already inside the corral, according to the man we were giving a ride to. 

We drove him about five miles further, and there was a short gravel road with a "camp," which had a motor home and a couple of cars. 

After we drove the rest of the way out to our site of interest, another ten miles or so down the gravel road, and spent several hours there, we came across our hitchhiker on the way back. He was working on foot with another man on an ATV, and they had a large group of cows blocking our road. So we had to gradually creep through, while the ATV guy tried to get them to make a path. The hitchhiker waved at us as we went by.

When we were down at out hiking spot, we came across small groups of cows several times, so I told them, "Hey, they are looking for you." 

Yesterday we saw another man herding four cows using a dirt bike. He stopped to talk to us after herding them off the road. He was hoping we had an extra pair of sunglasses since he'd lost his, but unfortunately we did not. Wyoming has a lot of cows.
We are in Idaho now, but after driving across Wyoming and seeing most of it, I'll say other than mules, of the hundreds of horses I saw, only one was not obviously a QH/stock horse. That was a draft horse I saw yesterday. I guess it is Quarter Horse country.


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## Knave

It is quarter horse country.  I’m glad you were there to offer a ride. If you get much more south you’ll need to look me up.


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## gottatrot

We are back from our epic journey, did not make it quite to Nevada, LOL. But drove 4,000 miles or so. 

When we come home it becomes obvious how spoiled our animals are. Our ex-barn cat survived fine being fed once a day, but now that we're back he prefers to eat six times a day, as usual. He likes to snack, and since he's thin we give him his food whenever he asks. The other cat wants to be held six times a day. 
When we were gone our dog opened the treat drawer at my sister's house that her dog has never figured out how to open. Neither dog got sick but she said their bellies were very distended.

The horses seem fine, it is noticeably more green everywhere because apparently it rained a lot while we were gone. They are partially in their winter coats now. Knowing more about horses in dry places, I understand not everyone needs to pick hooves daily. However, after two weeks without hoof cleaning, all hooves had a noticeable odor and black slime coating, deeper in the cracks. They needed all that cleaned off, some trimming and a thrush buster treatment, it seemed still superficial mostly at this point. 

We started our trip hiking in the snow in the Wallowa mountains, which I'd felt we were long overdue to see, since they are in Oregon. A tram takes you up, and we were the only ones hiking since it was 27 degrees but it was quite beautiful.









We headed up to Glacier and spent the night at Lake McDonald. Sitting on the shore, it was very still and quiet, the colors changing as the sun went down. No bugs or wind at all.









In Glacier we hiked the Highline trail. Epic views over the Going to the Sun road. People in front of us and behind us saw bears. They avoided us.

















Headed down to Yellowstone and did a short hike in more grizzly country. There were too many signs in the woods so we went back to the open valley. 








We saw amazing sea life fossils in the rocks there.









In Yellowstone we saw bison, geysers, and the geothermal wonders.

















Will continue more later...


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## gottatrot

Trip continued...

After Yellowstone we went through Cody, WY and stopped to see a friend from when I was a teen. Saw her four horses, including her very cute and playful foal, just weaned.









We got pulled over shortly after leaving her house, DH was distracted talking to me and although he saw the police car, he didn't slow down! Just a warning. But later on, in Idaho, we got pulled over again! I've had a couple of tickets in my life, but DH has never had a speeding ticket. The last time he had a warning was 15 years ago in Utah. That being said, we hit 98 mph on this trip. Some of the roads are so wide, straight and sometimes it feels like you are going 45 when you are going 90. But in Idaho, DH was going 37 in a 35, and the officer admitted he was only "guesstimating" he was going 50, so he gave a warning also. Phew. 

Near Cody, we visited a Japanese internment camp and learned how they kept Japanese/Americans there during WWII. Interesting, sad, possibly not preventable during those times. But it definitely could have been done better. 

















In Wyoming you can easily go somewhere to be alone.








This was near a dam and we found more fossils. This time a sea horse and a fish were among them. 

























More later...


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## tinyliny

oh, wow! I need to catch up on your journal. It's been too long!


I just came back from a short trip to Idaho, myself. me and my best sister did 5 days together. Best road trip ever. The point I'm getting to is that this time of year; the time when summer is over, but winter is not here yet. (so called 'autumn') is the best time to travel EVER!!!. Sun Valley was gorgeous. It snowed a tad, but the air was fresh, people were scarce, . . . . best time.


I'll have to catch up on your doings, but for now, I just wanted to chime in about what a good time it is, or was, to travel. September/October. BEST!!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Wow!! those are some amazing sights!! It looks like you two had an amazing time! No doubt the fur babies are happy to have their Mom and Dad back!!


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> ...I just wanted to chime in about what a good time it is, or was, to travel. September/October. BEST!!!


I agree! There were still a few people at Glacier and Yellowstone, but not compared to summer. Sun Valley is nice, I went there once. 

(Continued...)
Next we went toward Thermopolis, which is a small town with hot springs. Throughout the state we saw hundreds of antelope, a couple snakes, a few prairie dogs, wild turkeys and a badger.









































Then we went to Devil's Tower (several people were climbing it), and then Independence Rock.
























(one more...)


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## gottatrot

(Continued...)
We visited a ghost town called South Pass. Near there was where we picked up our hitchhiker. We were headed out to a place called Honeycomb Butte, which we did not get a photo of. That day it was raining heavily with hail and high winds, so we left our cameras in the car. It was beautiful, white rock on top of a bluff that was an ancient coral reef. It was shaped like a honeycomb on its side, with holes big enough to go inside. 
















We saw smaller fossilized coral later too.









Saw Oregon trail ruts along the way, beautiful scenery along gravel roads, and lots of colorful rocks and painted desert scenes.

































We finished in Succor Creek State Park in Oregon, a place with beautiful canyons.









In a couple of spots in Wyoming, we met this type of mud that was crazy. It was some kind of clay and when you walked on it the mud plastered itself to your shoe more and more, picking up debris also. Every step your foot would get heavier, and you couldn't just scrape it off, you had to pry it. It got around the car tires and in the wheel wells, making our car slide around. 

We were trying our hand at rock hounding, and found some beautiful agates, crystal geodes, thunder eggs, etc.


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## bsms

A picture from yesterday's hiking just 10 miles south of my house:

















That is maybe 15 miles south of I-10 where the highway swings south of Saguaro National Park and Tucson. Not saying it was totally empty, but let's just say I didn't need to hide behind a bush to go pee...

We were on the "Arizona Trail" but there aren't many people who use it there, even though Tucson is within easy driving range. That is part of why I want to live in a place with public lands. I may not always agree with how they are managed but I love being able to go out and walk without needing to excuse myself if I belch.

Beautiful pictures, gottatrot! This one in particular connected with me...it is like a picture of limitless opportunities:


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## Knave

Those pictures are amazing! I cannot pick one out because there were so many. I have never seen such a cool fossil before. What a fun trip!!!


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## egrogan

I agree with @*Knave* that the pictures are too spectacular to choose one favorite. I am really intrigued by all the fossils though. I've never seen anything like that before, and it's a little mindblowing that they're just laying around "out there" for anyone to see.

I have to say though, and it makes me feel like a bad person for thinking it- I can't believe you stopped and picked up the hitchhiker! You weren't afraid of doing that?! I guess it's because I grew up in the 1980s and it was drilled into us that you never EVER got into the car with a stranger, and you never stopped for someone on the side of the road. We definitely were raised to believe that strangers might abduct and kill us at any time :icon_rolleyes: I still don't think I personally would have stopped for him, but I'm glad you were able to help someone out who needed it.

Thanks for sharing all the beautiful photos.


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## gottatrot

@egrogan, I think you are right/savvy/wise and we don't pick up hitchhikers. This was a somewhat "special" case I guess because we were somewhere potential victims were very unlikely to be...on a very remote gravel road. Although it wasn't a set up, that didn't mean the guy wouldn't try to hijack our car and stuff. But that's why I was in the back with my 9mm at hand, and DH was wearing his 9mm also. So I guess you'd say the odds were in our favor, two against one. I also had bear spray next to me. 

It is so amazing to see fossils. We have seen many in museums and other places, including getting our own fish fossils at Kemmerer on a previous trip, where they have so many you can pay to chisel them out and keep what you find. DH found a crocodile tooth which was unusual so the site kept it. That kind of primes the eye, so we often look in areas where we've been told there are fossils. We saw some really neat shell fossils when we were in Iceland, in a bank along a road. A lot of states are known for fossils, and Wyoming has them nearly everywhere. Fossil Butte in Wyoming is great, along with Dinosaur National Monument in Colorado. We went to a place in Arizona near Tuba City also where you could see dinosaur footprints and eggs.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> But that's why I was in the back with my 9mm at hand, and DH was wearing his 9mm also.


_Quietly filing away this information in case I ever encounter @*gottatrot* and her husband on a dark country road..._ :rofl:

Sounds like you were indeed quite prepared!


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## bsms

I wouldn't think of picking up a hitchhiker along a major road. In the back country? I was picked up by a guy back in the early 80s who saved me a 30 mile walk after my truck died. Another time I went 15 miles in the rain because there wasn't anyone who came along. So...circumstances. 

It is kind of sad but I had a 357 revolver with me hiking Saturday. The area is posted as an area used by illegal immigrants and/or drug runners. If the latter, then a revolver wouldn't be good for much besides taking one with you to the Pearly Gates. I'm told they have rifles and travel in packs. But my wife and I would tend to avoid packs of people in the back country anyways. At least in places where the USFS has signs warning you of danger. I'd like my wife to take a class to learn the basics of shooting and when it is legal to shoot.


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## Knave

Hmm, I’ve picked up people before. I always want to stop to see why someone is stopped too, but I’ve never picked up an actual hitchhiker. Always a vehicle problem, and only once did a man wave me down. I stopped and when he saw little me he called his hiding daughter out and I gave them a ride. 

My husband tends toward a lot more caution than I do. Sadly I display this lack of hesitancy with my children, who also complain if we pass by a troubled stranger. I too am ready to shoot anyone who gives me trouble though. 

I once heard that my uncle and a buddy were traveling down a dirt road when a beautiful and naked woman flagged them down. She was in trouble and they gave her a ride, but they kept guns at the ready as well. I guess they were certain it could be a trap.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I once heard that my uncle and a buddy were traveling down a dirt road when a beautiful and naked woman flagged them down. She was in trouble and they gave her a ride, but they kept guns at the ready as well. I guess they were certain it could be a trap.


Ha ha sounds like some kind of movie, the siren set up but she is really medusa and if you look at her you will turn to stone.


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## lb27312

This is off topic but in tune with the above post... it's sad that we can't help people out. A few years ago I picked up a man that had a gas can that I took that needed fuel... I offered to take him to a gas station, he jumped in and said sure. But unfortunately he wasn't wanting gas... I was fortunate that after I was taken to an abandoned building that there was a landscaping person there at the building! I was very lucky there... it was very tense before the landscaper came around the side of the building. I carry now... and think twice before I pick up someone... honestly I haven't picked up anyone at all anymore. Sad


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## gottatrot

lb27312 said:


> This is off topic but in tune with the above post... it's sad that we can't help people out. A few years ago I picked up a man that had a gas can that I took that needed fuel... I offered to take him to a gas station, he jumped in and said sure. But unfortunately he wasn't wanting gas... I was fortunate that after I was taken to an abandoned building that there was a landscaping person there at the building! I was very lucky there... it was very tense before the landscaper came around the side of the building. I carry now... and think twice before I pick up someone... honestly I haven't picked up anyone at all anymore. Sad


Oh yikes, that is so scary! I'll pick up any dog that is hitchhiking but not humans.


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## Knave

That is so scary @lb27312. I am sorry that happened to you.

Gotta, I think they were more convinced she could be bait for someone else. Lol. I’m sure she had a story, but this I never heard.

Lb, I think that there are some bad people for sure. I just think that the vast majority are decent enough.


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## egrogan

@lb27312 I couldn't "like" your post as it was terrifying. I am so sorry you experienced that but glad you are here to tell us about it. I can't imagine what that must have been like.


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## gottatrot

Horses understand that Amore needs someone to watch over her, due to her unsteady mind. Halla performed this duty with zest, with Nala the friendly but slightly left out third wheel. After Halla died, Nala took over the job, and seemed to enjoy it, or at least it kept her busy. When Hero came along, he was the fringe horse. Now that Nala has moved away, Hero has had to take over. 

Whichever horse has the job of Amore's caretaker, they stay close and watchful. She follows no patterns and does not watch the other horses, but simply wanders. She also does not do her part in watching for danger, but lets the other horse do all the work. She lives her life like an irresponsible foal. So other horses babysit her. 

I think it might be good for Hero to have to be more responsible, since he has been more prone to acting immature himself. One good thing is that Amore comes when I call, because she is retired and people who want her are only here to give her food, treats, scratches, or nice walks. This used to bring Nala running up with Amore, but Hero was often doing his own thing. Now he has to come at whatever pace Amore chooses. So today they came galloping. Looks good, like my horses are happy to see me.









I am easing Hero back into work, since I didn't know if having two weeks plus off would affect his stifles. He is having no problems, so I took him for a long walk with Amore today and then a short ride. My goal this winter is more advanced training, with lots of positivity. We are out of the rehab phase now, so it will be nice not to have to do exercise "no matter what," despite weather or time constraints, which meant last winter lunging was often a go to. 

This year I want to make sure our rides and walks are in a variety of areas, and also to focus on making things really positive. 
I'm glad Amore is going into winter without any issues I know of that would make it difficult for her. 
















Part of keeping things positive is making sure I always put Hero's Renegades on when working him. He likes being able to walk over sticks and rocks without feeling it.
I know he will have to adjust to going out alone, especially when the weather is not great, so I'm taking things slowly.


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## gottatrot

Time to philosophize a little I guess.

On another thread there was a comment similar to: "In a herd, there is a leader and a follower. You are either one or the other." 

It's nicer for people if things are simple. But how many things in life are actually simple? I think relationships in herds are complex, just like relationships with people are. I also think things change on a regular basis, depending on what is going on, even during the course of a day. 

Leading and following are not always related to hierarchy, but sometimes confidence or other factors. Let's say Hero likes Nala to lead down the beach, even if he is comfortable in that setting. Maybe that's because he's thinking about rather being home. On a strange trail, it might be a lack of confidence. Hero likes Amore to lead if he's feeling insecure. But yesterday, on a trail we have gone on a few times, suddenly he barged ahead and insisted on being in front. 

My theory is that horses have a lot of different categories in their lives, and certain horses are in charge of/the leader for certain things. Maybe one horse gets first dibs on the water trough, but another horse gets the hay. Someone might get the say in when to run off, one might get the first nap, one might get to stand in a certain spot. 

For example, when Halla, Nala and Amore were together. Halla liked to guard Amore, but Amore went wherever she wanted and the others would generally follow. Nala had first dibs on the water trough and the space around it. Amore owned the food, unless Halla chased her away sometimes, but she still would get most of it. Halla owned the inside space in the shelters, Amore would get next and Nala would have to stand outside. Nala had a space near one gate that she was the boss over. Amore said when everyone went in or out of the shelters due to weather. Nala was the first to nap, Amore last.

These things were subject to change. I think of my relationship with the horses more like a relationship with another person. If I think of it as leader/follower or dominance based, that makes my thoughts about it very one dimensional and shallow. To me it is more complex, and something that grows over time. To me it is more important to say, "What do I want to do about this one thing right now," rather than see everything as a black/white struggle to be in charge of everything. 

I don't know how Hero views his behaviors, but probably he is like us and doesn't think deeply about the "why." When I took him for a walk yesterday, when we started out he did a little mouthing as if he was thinking about starting up some biting, and he leaped forward a couple of times.  I didn't think "Oh no, he's testing me," but I wondered if he might be feeling insecure since he a) had barely been out of his field in a couple weeks, b) hadn't been handled by me for a while so wondered if everything was the same as before, and c) feeling nervous or energetic due to the fall weather and wind. 

I don't think about things as respect or disrespect. When my horses are new to me and I bring them out into new, scary and distractable settings, they often bonk into me and I have to watch carefully to not get stepped on. Over time these incidents become less, but it's not because I establish dominance or correct them for not watching my space. Instead, it's just like what you'd expect with another person. As we move around each other more, they become aware of how I move (different from a horse), and the space I take up. Then they try to avoid me. We all have to experience working together before we can become better at it. 

Eventually, like yesterday, when we walk through a rough trail through the woods and fields, I watch the ground while sometimes having one horse behind, or in front, or both alongside me. Sometimes both are on the same side. But we all are watching each other, the space and the terrain. When it is narrow, I often walk between the horses with one in front and one behind. Sometimes the front horse might drag me forward a bit, but that's good because I want the horse to push through the things that block our way and if they need to hop or step to get over something I can't see, that's important. 

I also think different horses might do the same behavior for different reasons. A horse might bite you as a warning, or as a rough idea of a game, or because they are scared. Of course we can always reprimand a horse for a bite, but we might consider what it is that the horse needs from us. It's not always strong leadership. You can be as diverse in your place within the horse group as they are with each other. You might say "I'll let you own this one thing," while insisting that you have say in another. They certainly understand when you are insistent, but none of us have to insist that we "own" everything. I believe that would be unnatural to a horse, and make them view us less as a friend and more as some kind of evil dictator.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, just popping by to let you know how much we enjoyed those travel photos of yours! We made them into a slide show over lunch and ooohed and aaahed over them. It's great when people share photos like this and we all get to do vicarious travels on other continents!  I'll try to get off my backside and finally post our Bluff Knoll photos from two weeks ago tomorrow...

Happy riding, and enjoy your autumn! :cowboy:


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...My theory is that horses have a lot of different categories in their lives, and certain horses are in charge of/the leader for certain things. Maybe one horse gets first dibs on the water trough, but another horse gets the hay. Someone might get the say in when to run off, one might get the first nap, one might get to stand in a certain spot...
> 
> ...These things were subject to change. I think of my relationship with the horses more like a relationship with another person. If I think of it as leader/follower or dominance based, that makes my thoughts about it very one dimensional and shallow. To me it is more complex, and something that grows over time...
> 
> ...You might say "I'll let you own this one thing," while insisting that you have say in another. They certainly understand when you are insistent, but none of us have to insist that we "own" everything. I believe that would be unnatural to a horse, and make them view us less as a friend and more as some kind of evil dictator.


Can't "like" this enough. I left the thread after hearing, once again, how all I know is based on books. That was never very true, and much of what I say now is based on observing what works/does not work with my horses. And watching how they interact with each other - successfully.

Bandit usually insists on first dibs for hay pellets. Although if Trooper REALLY wants it, he'll give way. Although Bandit can usually turn Trooper 180 with a glance. Except for when Trooper doesn't.

Change "hay pellets" to "hay", and you can flip the names of Trooper and Bandit. Change it to water, and all three get equal dibs. I've never seen my horses insist "This water is MINE!" And while Bandit & Cowboy will never be buds, Trooper often shares his hay and even his pellets with Cowboy until Cowboy gets his own. Then Cowboy is expected to leave. Except...sometimes they just share all afternoon.

It has nothing to do with what I've read because almost every book and every video tells me I'm wrong. Just as the government and my PA tell me I'm eating wrong, although my PA was honest enough to compare my blood work from last year to this. She then told me to keep doing what I'm doing - everything in my blood work shows improvement and I've lost 27 lbs and still losing. She was willing to adjust what she has been taught to match the results, which means she has a real place in medicine!

At some point I have to decide to trust a book or an "expert" - and in horses, anyone who has ridden a lot of horses or owned them for decades is an "expert" even if their advice consistently gets bad results - or I can trust my lying eyes.

It is frustrating on several levels. This simplistic, "_Horses are either leaders or followers_" mentality is what several riding instructors have told me. It is what almost every book I own preaches - excepting Tom Roberts, maybe. And yet it fails the test I learned long ago in science: "_Can your mathematical model PREDICT future results? If not, your model isn't good enough._" So...you change the model's math. You do NOT insist reality change to meet your model!

Apart from that...we TEACH riders to dominate horses. We disguise it as "respect" or "trust" but what we really insist on is unquestioning obedience. We then teach people to behave in ways no sensible horse would ever actually "trust" and then wonder why horses seem reluctant. Or sour. Or do little things like moving away when we want to mount. And the answer to the latter - if you read HF or books - is to make their life suck if they move, instead of teaching them "_Riding with me is enjoyable_".

Why is it almost every book I own and so many videos and instructors' first advice is "Punish" instead of "Reward"? And while treats are A type of reward, a horse is capable of understanding "_We are going to enjoy each other now_"! Why do so few people ever seem to ask, "_How can I make my horse ENJOY a ride?_" And why do so many people seem to assume horses are stupid? Too stupid to connect "_He's getting on me_" with "_Now we will go out together and do good things._"

And as SueC told me years ago, people treat other people the way they treat their horses. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me but I dislike being told I'm not allowed an opinion. And oddly enough, I've got three horses who ALL seem to feel the same way. I don't think I mirror them or they mirror me. I think we just have enough mutual respect to allow each of us to express concerns and to try to find a compromise that leaves ALL of us content. I wish humans would learn to do that. Although I think that is the principle I was taught in kindergarten....

PS: Last night, the pastor of my church mentioned we sometimes try to push people before they are ready and get anger in response. He asked me about it and I said the best example was if I pushed my horse too hard to do something that really bothered him, he'd buck and twist and get angry that I wasn't listening to him. Another guy asked me if my horse REALLY talked to me. I said yes, our trail rides are a continuous conversation - that horses, like people, STOP talking when they meet someone who refuses to listen. The guy was skeptical but the pastor thought it matched his years in counseling people...

Sorry for the vent, gottatrot. Your post just made SOOOOOO much sense to me! *It was spot on with how my horses treat each other AND me!* Thank you!


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## Knave

Hmm... I think I understand what you are saying. I too would say everything is a bit more complex than simple leader/follower, but I guess the statement gives an overview of relationship. As in a human relationship, one must establish boundaries to have a healthy give and take. So, I have a boundary that says don't push into me. It doesn't always work with those horses who tend towards pushing, but I always say, "I don't like that. Please back off." I feel the same about human relationships. My husband explained his view of it to me once. He said something like this:


I am the boss. That doesn't mean we aren't friends and partners. It is like I am the sheriff and he is my under-sheriff. He has a say, and we work together, but ultimately I am in charge.


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## bsms

I don't like Bandit grabbing my sleeve with his lips. Don't think he means anything bad, but it annoys me. And I have the right to say so. The difference is we BOTH have a right to protest some action, and then we FIRST try to find a mutually acceptable compromise.

In rare cases, I need to insist. And my horses all seem fine with that. Provided I've considered their objection.

In a few cases, my HORSE has insisted. And sometimes he is right, too!

What I see in horses is SOME hierarchy based partially on force and partially on judgment, modified by a case-by-case consideration of strong objections. In effect, if Trooper STRONGLY wants X on a given day, he is likely to get it - even if Bandit normally takes it. In like manner, on a given day, if I strongly want to canter...we always canter. But if I sort of want it, and my horse strongly doesn't, we don't. I'd guess about 90% of the time my horses will agree to X just because they are agreeable. It is uncommon for me to need to say, "But I REALLY want..."

And in the corral, they are the same way. They learn each others likes and dislikes and compromise without fuss. Usually. Because sometimes someone is having a bad day and needs some extra "space". But that doesn't mean the horse is trying to take control. We should be TRYING for "win-win", not "win-lose". And the "Are you a leader" argument with riding always seems to boil down, in the end, to the human saying "_Heads I win. Tails you lose._"


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## Knave

I think they are both lower level horses @bsms. I don't know them of course, but just naturally agreeable animals is what they sound like. Lucy, she wants to be the lead mare. She is excepting Pete, who is a very good alpha with very strict rules. Lucy though is wretched. Excepting Pete, everyone must cater to her whims. Don't drink if she is standing near the trough. Oh, that food over there looks yummier than this food, leave right this minute. She will and does run everyone for any whim which comes to her, and heaven forbid a horse to try and stand his ground. If one does then Pete must get involved to end the life shattering dilemma and keep everyone separated. 



She is a wretched beast who believes herself to be a queen living in a herd of peasants with her dad. So, naturally agreeable she is not, nor is she forgiving. She is that mean girl you remember from high school. Now, if Beamer were alone with Cash, they would probably behave more like your two do. Cash alone with Zeus would throw alpha rules right out the window because Zeus does not believe in those types of games. So, it is complicated, but in a larger herd there is often a boss, because if we face it there is often someone who runs everyone they can.


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## bsms

Some horses ARE bullies. They rule by force. I just don't want to resemble them! I want to be more like Mia or Bandit, who are trusted to have good judgment. And, I think, because they don't always need to get their own way.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> What I see in horses is SOME hierarchy based partially on force and partially on judgment, modified by a case-by-case consideration of strong objections.


Yes, I agree. Even the most bossy type of horse, if you watch them, they have a strong personality but they don't control everything-at-all-times. We see them with loud body language and assume they are in charge. 

I read an article about a theory that herds may need horses that appear bossy because this can throw off predators if the herd actually follows another, less obvious horse when it comes time to run, which in the case of @Knave's herd, Pete might be the one who would make the life-or-death judgment calls.

In my watching of horses, I've noticed that being in charge of food doesn't always make you the one the others follow when it's time to spook, or the first or last one to nap, or control all the space, or other things. And one horse doesn't perform all leadership roles all the time. 

If a horse's body language is strong enough, the least likely horse may be followed by everyone if he runs. That doesn't mean he's usually the leader of the group. Or the least likely horse like Amore might kick a very dominant horse solidly and make them back away. When this happens, people think "Oh, the hierarchy is changing," but it's just that on this certain day she is insisting. 

Like with a human boss. Horses aren't just doing a job, they are living an entire life. Although some people seem to think in order to get "respect," we should tell a horse everything from where to place his legs, how long to hold them there, when to take a bite of food, etc, the only one who could have that much control over a human would be a sadistic guard in a prison camp. 

In reality, your boss at work doesn't tell you every detail of how to type on your computer, what your posture should be like, or how to use the toilet paper in the bathroom. So they really are not in charge of everything you do. They are only in charge of a few things that relate to bigger decisions. 

That's how horses are with each other, in charge of a few things. They're not complete bosses of each others' lives. We also don't need to be complete bosses of our horses. Yet don't we sometimes try to tell the horse what his posture should be, how long he should take to pee before moving on, or whether he can scratch himself? It's kind of sadistic if you really think about it. So we're really quite worse than the loudest, bossiest horse in the herd, that only says to stay away from the food at this moment while allowing the others to scratch themselves and stand however they like. 

We've also had discussions on the forum which I found very interesting, which was that even with things like food, people rarely observed their horses having linear hierarchies like we have in our workplaces, where one person is in charge of everyone else below. Instead, one horse might get the food bucket before two others, but a fourth horse might get the food bucket after number 2 but before number 1. 

I've never really observed a horse trying to dominate me in everything, or that if I backed down in one area, took over all areas. One of the most dominant horses I've worked with on the ground, always playing games for space and very aggressive with biting and kicking, was a very docile horse under saddle. Actually I've known two horses that were aggressive during handling but docile under saddle. Their thing wasn't global domination over all things, but they had strong opinions about controlling space and moving people and horses around versus being handled and moved. 

I also find it interesting that Wonder, dantedressagenerd's horse enjoys having the game with his rider where he allows control unless the rider gets too pushy, or tries to tell him what to do. Halla was like that, always wanting you to know that it was by her graciousness that you were allowed to manage her, but ready to take it all away any time your "ask" became "tell." She enjoyed working with people, but she felt strongly about her rights and her own personal power. You had to understand that she was granting you a privilege, and you were taking nothing from her that she was not giving you.


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## knightrider

> Halla was like that, always wanting you to know that it was by her graciousness that you were allowed to manage her, but ready to take it all away any time your "ask" became "tell." She enjoyed working with people, but she felt strongly about her rights and her own personal power. You had to understand that she was granting you a privilege, and you were taking nothing from her that she was not giving you.


This is my Isabeau all the way. Also my horse I had as a teen. The minute you start to "tell" these horses, they start to rebel. Both of these horses were fantastic with beginner riders, taking good care of them.


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## Knave

I think my herd dynamics are interesting. I guarantee everyone is frightened of Lucy except Pete and Zeus. Zeus believes he is apart from the politics, and the others have given up any idea of telling him anything. He doesn't tell anyone else what to do either, but does enjoy playing. Now, everyone respects Pete the most, he is the top dog, although they do not show obvious fear of him unless he requests something. They show him a sort of respect, and he is a fair boss who shows more obvious control when it comes down to it than any alpha we have had prior. We will probably put him down this fall, and we wonder how life will progress in the herd without someone who is actually over Lucy.


Gotta, that is exactly what I meant by what my husband said about being sheriff. Yes, with his partner he must show respect and equality for the relationship to work. It is only that in a conflict of interest where one must win it will be the sheriff because he is the boss when it comes down to it. 



In my opinion it is a great picture. If I were not the person with the final say, Cash would simply eat the best things he could find, Bones would torment small animals and cattle, and Zeus would probably rob houses. Beamer would run away and Lucy would chase everyone, and I can't say what Pete would do anymore as old age does effect him. Now, if I didn't have relationships and responsibilities, I probably too would have some ideas that didn't pan out well. I would spend the money, eat everything, and probably run away.


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## bsms

In the thread I abandoned, I argued we DO need to have SOME rules, and those rules needed to be enforced for safety's sake. So...bite, buck, or spin? We'll have a dispute. Try to walk over me in a corral? We'll go hoof to toe. Don't want to turn left? If - big if - it is really important, I'll insist. And because I rarely insist, it is taken seriously when I do.

Kind of like my Grandma on my Mom's side. According to her kids, she only cussed once in her life. Dam with an n. But EVERYBODY stopped, and they knew she was life & death serious.

That is what I mean by gaining control by giving up control. When I don't micromanage, when I give my horse some breathing room, he pays better attention when I do want something. And because I regularly let him do something just because he wants - like stop for a couple minutes of grazing - he is quite agreeable most of the time. And when he does say NO...I listen. Because it is important to him, that day, that place, that time.

I think gottatrot is spot on. We often treat horses with a degree of control that borders on psychotic. I think part of it is fear. Because sometimes when you give the horse freedom, he WILL either abuse it or misuse it, and that can be darn scary. But I can't count the times I've been slowly loosing control of Mia or Bandit, and then made the conscious decision to let them take over at least some of what we did - and in minutes, I had 'control' of my horse again. Give my horse more slack and...he pays more attention? Not all the time. Sometimes he wants a tight rein because he wants to know exactly what I want immediately - like when he is frightened. It depends on who wants the contact. He ASKS for it sometimes and then it is fine. It is not fine when I impose it. Because in the end, we BOTH know I can only ask. He has four feet on the ground and I have zero, so he always has the final say.


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## Knave

Ahh, see, we are closer than you thought. Just verbiage effects us. I never read the thread. I try to avoid the conflicting ones.


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## Dragoon

I am loving, and living, this discussion!
Gottatrot needs to write a third book, about her observations and insights. I even have a title!
What you REALLY need to know about horses, our heroes.

I have always respected the horses personage. I think people who micromanage them are afraid of them, deep inside. Sooo many people, all so afraid...


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## egrogan

> ...and Zeus would probably rob houses...


 :rofl:


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## Knave

lol @egrogan! Zeus would rob houses! He's trouble with a capital T, and anytime he is loose he is trying to find his way into the tack room, the container, or the house. I've truly considered letting him into the house, but one of the dogs struggles with her footing. It's like a fear thing for her on the laminate floor. So, I'm scared that he will come into the house and panic. 



You guys would probably love cowhorse type competitions. You can't micromanage a horse in a cutting situation. Some people try, but they don't make it very far. You must allow the horse to make his own mistakes, try his own theories... you teach him the game, and the only way to be successful is if he loves the game. So, with this love of the game and an understanding of the rules, the rider must trust the horse to make the decisions himself. The rider is simply a passenger on a really fun ride. I've seen some people try and micromanage a cutting horse or a cowhorse, and they do alright, but they never make it to the top. They cannot compete with the best. If you ask me, their horses aren't happy either. They don't enjoy the game.


I think that a partnership is the goal. I am friends with my horses. Yes, even the ones who want to rob houses. I have a relationship with them, and although I am the one who makes the plan for the day, we complete that plan as a team. I must take my horse's opinions into consideration or my day is not a fun day. I think the people who micromanage horses are the people who micromanage people. I never did open your thread, but I am thinking that probably there are all kinds of people on it. Most probably are not the type who dictate every step, but there is always that type. I, like most horses, cannot tolerate that type of thinking. The bully intimidates me, and I will try to preform for a while, but if I decide I am done that is it. Probably a lot of horses are like I am. Actually, they are much better than I. They are forgiving and accepting and try their best. I think most people probably do.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Time to philosophize a little I guess.


I had to wait till I had the brainspace for this (last week wasn't good for that!) but now I've read it I just want to tell you I love this post, and the ensuing discussion. :loveshower:

The world simply isn't black-and-white. I would say we all operate with working hypotheses around here, as opposed to the more common thing of people operating with fixed mindsets. We're ready to modify our points of view as extra data comes in, and we actively look for data. And that's great, because even many scientists have confirmation bias and are avoiding thinking about data that doesn't support their current ideas... and I see less of that here, than I did amongst science colleagues, so take a bow, everyone. 

I think part of that is that for some reason all of us are acutely aware of the complexities in the world, the limitations in human understanding and our own understanding, and that learning is never finished...













> These things were subject to change. I think of my relationship with the horses more like a relationship with another person. If I think of it as leader/follower or dominance based, that makes my thoughts about it very one dimensional and shallow. To me it is more complex, and something that grows over time. To me it is more important to say, "What do I want to do about this one thing right now," rather than see everything as a black/white struggle to be in charge of everything.


Couldn't agree more...




> I don't know how Hero views his behaviors, but probably he is like us and doesn't think deeply about the "why." When I took him for a walk yesterday, when we started out he did a little mouthing as if he was thinking about starting up some biting, and he leaped forward a couple of times. I didn't think "Oh no, he's testing me," but I wondered if he might be feeling insecure since he a) had barely been out of his field in a couple weeks, b) hadn't been handled by me for a while so wondered if everything was the same as before, and c) feeling nervous or energetic due to the fall weather and wind.


Yeah. And that whole "the horse is testing me / you" dogma is so unbelievably overapplied. It's like many humans think everything is always about them, and about "winning" - and that tells us more about the people who believe these things, than it tells us about horses, the world and general reality. They're always imposing their mindsets on what's around them, and not trying to see it from another perspective - such as the horse's perspective.




> I don't think about things as respect or disrespect. When my horses are new to me and I bring them out into new, scary and distractable settings, they often bonk into me and I have to watch carefully to not get stepped on. Over time these incidents become less, but it's not because I establish dominance or correct them for not watching my space. Instead, it's just like what you'd expect with another person. As we move around each other more, they become aware of how I move (different from a horse), and the space I take up. Then they try to avoid me. We all have to experience working together before we can become better at it.


It's so nice when someone gets it! inkunicorn:

And the thing is, this doesn't seem especially hard to me. It's not rocket science, it just seems like commonsense to me. Unfortunately, it's not common enough...




> Eventually, like yesterday, when we walk through a rough trail through the woods and fields, I watch the ground while sometimes having one horse behind, or in front, or both alongside me. Sometimes both are on the same side. But we all are watching each other, the space and the terrain. When it is narrow, I often walk between the horses with one in front and one behind. Sometimes the front horse might drag me forward a bit, but that's good because I want the horse to push through the things that block our way and if they need to hop or step to get over something I can't see, that's important.


That's having your mind engaging with the environment, and its complexities, and putting yourself in the horses' positions as well. As opposed to operating dogmatically with. "The most important thing in the world is that the horse always kowtows to me because I'm so much more important than it or anyone else." :evil:




> I also think different horses might do the same behavior for different reasons. A horse might bite you as a warning, or as a rough idea of a game, or because they are scared. Of course we can always reprimand a horse for a bite, but we might consider what it is that the horse needs from us. It's not always strong leadership. You can be as diverse in your place within the horse group as they are with each other. You might say "I'll let you own this one thing," while insisting that you have say in another. They certainly understand when you are insistent, but none of us have to insist that we "own" everything. I believe that would be unnatural to a horse, and make them view us less as a friend and more as some kind of evil dictator.


Again, couldn't agree more, thanks for writing and sharing this! 













bsms said:


> Can't "like" this enough. I left the thread after hearing, once again, how all I know is based on books. That was never very true, and much of what I say now is based on observing what works/does not work with my horses. And watching how they interact with each other - successfully.


Been there, done that too, and couldn't believe it when I first came across it on the open forum as a newbie here giving some (solicited) advice to a young person, when people who'd never in their lives trained their own horses from scratch, let alone to competition level, were telling me I was "ridiculous" and so was the notion that anything about horses or training them could be learnt from books.

@DanteDressageNerd reports getting frequent advice on how wrong she is and how little she knows from people who've never done dressage or trained their own horses from scratch. I am fed up with the interminable hubris of ultra-ignorant people. And, those are also the ones that usually rise to the top in organisations, and politically - because "shiitake floats" and because ignorant people love the confidence and "alpha-ness" of other ignorant people. :evil:




> It has nothing to do with what I've read because almost every book and every video tells me I'm wrong. Just as the government and my PA tell me I'm eating wrong, although my PA was honest enough to compare my blood work from last year to this. She then told me to keep doing what I'm doing - everything in my blood work shows improvement and I've lost 27 lbs and still losing. She was willing to adjust what she has been taught to match the results, which means she has a real place in medicine!


Excellent - the PA is learning something! 

Do you know that story about baboons (I think it was) and the washing of tubers? These young baboons in a wild group being studied by scientists had worked out by accident that the tubers they were digging up tasted nicer when they were washed in water to remove the grit. Within a very short time, all the young baboons in the group were washing the tubers. But not the adults - oh no, they had nothing they could possibly learn from the youngsters. Remind you of anyone? Often, humans only take advice from recognised "experts" no matter how wrong they might turn out to be - and they do it at their own peril. Instead of using their own minds for observation and inference, for doing things by trial and error, and learning from life, not from "authority"... 

But to do that, people need to take responsibility for their own lives and thinking, rather than defaulting to parroting the "authorities" and then blaming them when they end up being shown many years later to be wrong about something - but never blaming themselves for their lazy lemming approach to life, and failure to make full use of their own capacities... Don't think and take a stand, just parrot and then you can sue someone later when they're wrong... :chicken:

Oh and by the way, the most arrogant prats I've ever had to deal with when teaching weren't the A students - never the A students. It was the odd C student who didn't even understand the concepts properly, and appeared blissfully unaware of this fact, who thought they knew more than everyone else in the world...













> At some point I have to decide to trust a book or an "expert" - and in horses, anyone who has ridden a lot of horses or owned them for decades is an "expert" even if their advice consistently gets bad results - or I can trust my lying eyes.
> 
> It is frustrating on several levels. This simplistic, "_Horses are either leaders or followers_" mentality is what several riding instructors have told me. It is what almost every book I own preaches - excepting Tom Roberts, maybe. And yet it fails the test I learned long ago in science: "_Can your mathematical model PREDICT future results? If not, your model isn't good enough._" So...you change the model's math. You do NOT insist reality change to meet your model!


Yeah, the reason I was drawn to Tom Roberts' manuals when I was training my first horse is because he is one of the few published horse people who used his own brain to try to work things out empirically, and because he felt it was supremely important to try to understand the horse's perspective when working with a horse - and because what he said was gelling with my own observations about horse behaviour, and teaching me more about it than I knew when I was 11 - but also always asking me to test these ideas out, to keep my own eyes open, to improvise. Observations, inferences, trial and error, respect for the horse as a horse. And this coming from someone who started training people to ride and working with the "problem horses" in the army at age 16 - someone who worked in the real world, not some esoteric specialty.

Reading what he had to say is very much like reading what the people in our little journal group have to say about their dealings with horses. It's based on the same sorts of things.

Love the rest of that post of yours and the discussion that followed and would like to say more, but I really must go do some work!


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I think part of that is that for some reason all of us are acutely aware of the complexities in the world, the limitations in human understanding and our own understanding, and that learning is never finished...
> ...That's having your mind engaging with the environment, and its complexities, and putting yourself in the horses' positions as well. As opposed to operating dogmatically with. "The most important thing in the world is that the horse always kowtows to me because I'm so much more important than it or anyone else." :evil:


Really good insights, loved your whole post.

Yesterday my sister and I ran the 6 mile (10k) run over this bridge.








It's the biggest run around here with over 3,000 participants. Very fun. I told my sister we don't know how to race, because we strategize but we never put it all out there. For example, I comment throughout, and sometimes holler stupid things, and if you're racing you don't have the breath or energy to do that. Our goal is to be somewhat comfortable, and enjoy ourselves, so we can still be doing it for many more years.

My talent is to be the pacer, and I take pride in my ability to maintain a very consistent time of our choice. My sister gets caught up with the adrenaline at the beginning and rabbits off. Then I try to pull her back, and she resists, and later she tries to pull me back, but I resist. We run together and then at the very end sometimes one of us pulls ahead. This time I finished slightly in front of her in 59:10. We were happy, 17th and 19th in our age division out of 237. 

My point with all of this: you may notice the uphill on the bridge in the picture. It's almost 6% grade. Tried to train for it some, but it still made my legs cramp up. So today my legs are a little sore.

Today Cass and Brave's owner texted me to see if I wanted to ride at sunset. So I took Hero out for a ride, then met up with her and rode Cass. We did quite a bit of trotting, big trotting. My leg muscles were crying out "why are you doing this to us?" but it was so fun I didn't want to stop. We went a few miles. Cass is the Friesian cross, and his trot is so big. It was a toss up whether two pointing or posting was less painful, so I alternated.

For Hero, we continued working on going out to the beach alone. He did so amazing and I was extremely proud of him. We worked on being very calm, picking up the trot and canter on the way out whenever I asked, trotting on the way back and then walking quite a bit (to stay calm and not rush home). 

Some people were acting strange in the dune grass, creeping up where there is usually no one. This made Hero zoom forward several times, so I got off and had him eat grass, then walk calmly near me. Our ride was short because I'm building him up gradually so he thinks "this isn't so far," and realizes it is easy and he feels good and confident.

I think he will be a good horse to go out alone with, fairly soon. He's quite brave, honestly. Didn't even flinch at the cars and barking dogs on the beach. 

Cass' owner showed me a huge area on top of the dunes where it is all mowed with rolling hills, where she likes to ride when the tide is in. It will be fun to take Hero over there soon.


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## SueC

Out of left field, I truly think that this is an example of a piece of music which can teach you more about life and relationships, including with horses, than a whole swag of current "authorities" on such things.






Maybe that's because music engages more than just the cerebrum, and cuts to a more elemental level. Maybe it's the joy there is in harmony and play and learning things.

And the equines seem to think it's nice too. I had this CD on when Mary Lou and Sparkle came up into the house garden to keep me company and eat lavender clippings before, and they play with their ears and get crinkly happy-eyes when this stuff is playing through the window into the garden.  It's not any old music, these two seem to especially like folk fiddle.


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking about risk assessment and how and why we decide certain things are safe or unsafe to do. 

Obviously, it's a big part of our every day life, and something we have to continually assess and reassess. I think it's important to use logic in our choices, but "logic" is not always easy or clear, and as some have pointed out in this journal, research and statistics can often be skewed, or have too many variables. 

Some things that have been driving my thoughts about this are recent accidents with horse trailers by a couple of forum members, reading about several runners that were killed by lightning this year, and it seems like several times when I wandered over to another forum that has a lot of sport horse reports, there were articles about riders severely injured and killed by rotational falls when horses fell while jumping. 
Along with this, I was curious about how healthy or unhealthy it is to do more extreme distance sports like the Ironman triathlong, ultrarunning or even marathons.

It was interesting to read a couple of studies that seemed to show there is damage to the heart muscle after running a marathon, which recovers after about a week. But those who regularly run marathons or do extreme feats of endurance often ended up with scar tissue in the heart, so it seems that an extreme level of strain over and over is much less healthy. Not trying to make myself feel good about my own exercise choices, but the research seems to show that exercising at a moderate pace with 15-50 miles a week is extremely healthy, but adding more miles/time or a faster pace don't add to your health, and in the end might cause some health issues. 

The older I get, the more I learn that balance is key to everything in life. Hurting ourselves more or being extreme about exercise is not really better than the other extreme of rarely getting off the couch.

Learning how to assess risk is something I am continuing to do throughout life. I don't want to limit myself by fear or undue concerns, and understand that accidents will always happen. Life is unpredictable. The fact that some runners have been killed by lightning this year probably doesn't mean running outside is too risky, but rather that it would be wise to consider the weather and go under cover if it gets stormy, even if you are in a race. 

Always in the back of my mind I have had this fondness for the idea of doing more jumping some day. I've only jumped a little, and never higher than about two and a half feet. I've jumped enough to know that it's very tricky to stay on over a bad jump, and that it's not too difficult to jump on a horse that is good at it. 

Lately, however, I've been considering that one of the most dangerous things that can happen with horses is for them to fall, and the worst accidents I've seen personally have been when horses fell with riders. When horses jump, it increases their likelihood of falling by quite a lot. I've been noticing that unlike many other things, the experience and training of horse and rider do not seem to make a terrible fall less likely. 

I'm thinking that unlike some of the other things I consider and still continue doing, jumping is heading over to my list of things that are just too risky. Jumping is fun, but to me it's not more fun than many of the other things I do with horses, to the point where I think it is worth the risk of a bad injury to myself or the horse I am riding. I'm not saying I'll never pop over a log if the footing is good on a whim, but when I really separate out all my reasons for wanting to jump, I think there is a large component of ego in there, or me feeling like I would be a better rider if I could jump better. 

Yet I know this is not always the case, since I've personally known several riders that did not have a strong position although they jumped higher than I ever have. The key was that they jumped on more predictable/auto horses rather than tricky ones. And even if it were...riding has to be about two circles merging: one being what is good for the horse, one being what is good for me, and what we do together should only be what is included where those two circles mesh together.
Ego has no place in horsemanship. 

Ego can make us take risks that would otherwise be outside of what we might consider acceptable. But still there is the balance of having a quality of experiences, doing what you enjoy without limiting yourself by fear and breaking down what your motivations are. I'm sure many of you face these types of decisions all the time too.


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## Knave

Risk assessment is something to consider. Cash falls. He has gotten better, but for a long time there was the thought by many that he needed to go back to the holding pens. The risk was too high, because it is very dangerous to fall. I didn’t know what to do and struggled for a while.

I wanted him to improve, and very luckily he has improved a lot. He still occasionally falls, but I like to believe it will only get better and better. I obviously chose not to send him back to holding, and I believe that was a good call on my part.

I enjoy jumping some. Bones is super fun to jump. Bones is also extremely athletic. I’m not scared to fall on him, but would I ever jump Cash? Probably not. Risk assessment does come into consideration for me there. 

I do a lot of dangerous things. I guess I chose to live. Fear is a big issue for me, and I can see how it could keep me from doing anything. I would prefer to do many stupid things rather than be afraid.


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## gottatrot

@SueC, can you play that fiddle piece? Great music. We're still playing the violin and cello often here. 



Knave said:


> I do a lot of dangerous things. I guess I chose to live. Fear is a big issue for me, and I can see how it could keep me from doing anything. *I would prefer to do many stupid things rather than be afraid.*


I like this so much. I think it's a good philosophy to err _slightly_ on the side of being stupid than to err on the side of being too afraid to enjoy life.

Today I had a great ride on Hero. 
If I have someone to ride out with regularly, I tend to not put in the work to get a horse really good at going out alone. Still, I'm the type of person who can enjoy riding just as much either way. There are challenges to going out with others, and there are challenges to going out alone.

I think Hero is going to be good at riding solo. I'm glad, since Halla was very enjoyable to ride alone, but Amore always struggled with the concept.

A nice thing about taking Hero out alone is that I can do the best ride for him, based on how he is feeling at the moment. If he struggles, I can easily get off and make things more positive, and this seems to be helping him a lot. 

It was supposed to be windy and rainy all day. However, this afternoon things cleared off and the weather became a series of short squalls. 

There are two things that are making working with Hero so much more positive than it used to be. One is that he is a horse that accepts and adapts, so if I do something consistently he no longer gets upset about it. The other is that he watches me and listens to me all the time now. 

I was thinking today that if Hero improved as much in the next year as he has in this past year, I would put little children on him next fall. :smile::smile: 

Something I am really wondering about...how many horses that keep getting very worked up are having some kind of pain? It makes me wonder about Halla, if she did have some kind of pain I never understood. Nala is such a hot horse, but when I look at her back and her hooves, I could suspect she might have pain in either. I just wonder how much adrenaline makes horses work up super high from things that might just make them work up a little, if pain is involved. 

For Hero, anyway, he can certainly spook now and then, but he is completely different in his attitude now. He doesn't get worked up and stay there, and his "up" is now like a 4/10 compared to a 8/10 before. 

So today, I brought Hero down to the barn to tack up, and he just stood there and ate stuff, and didn't dance or paw like he used to. He doesn't mind the girth, or bridle, it all seems comfortable for him.

We went out, and he walked slowly but just kept going toward the beach without stopping. When we got into the neighborhood, one of those squalls hit. The wind whipped up to about 30 mph and it started raining. Hero stopped, I got off and led him for a bit, and let him graze every half block or so for a few seconds. 
Last year he would have been very upset about all of this, and jumped around or tried to bite me. He actually was pretty contented taking bites of grass, and his eye wasn't pleased but he was resigned. 

When we got close to the beach, the wind and rain really picked up, and he set his lip on me which was him saying that he should be biting me. But I said quietly, "No," and turned to see he was watching me intently. It was like he wanted me to know that he wanted to bite me, but he still was going to listen when I said not to. Since he is listening and watching now, I don't have to be loud.

Once we got down on the beach, the wind and rain died down suddenly. I got on and walked Hero, and he seemed to feel energetic so I asked him to trot and canter. Those he picked up right away. Nice and smooth, no bucks or even hint of one. 
I wanted to go to the parking area where I rode with Cass and Brave recently. My idea was to go to that parking lot this time (about 3 mile ride round trip), and then the next time go farther to the trails. 

Where the beach met the asphalt, there were several cars and logs and Hero stopped and wanted to turn around. So I got off and led him, and soon we found some grass to eat for a minute, and he became cheerful. 

We went around the very large parking lot. There is a raised curb all along the center of where the cars parked. 

After I got on, Hero stepped onto this raised curb, and then I asked him to step down a few times but he could not seem to figure out how. There were several cars parked, and a couple of them had people inside. We had to ride down the middle of them, all the way to the end, until finally Hero figured out he could step down off that curb again. He's been on curbs before but I guess it just looked different today. 









I rode all the way back to the bottom of the dune, but then Hero looked up and could not find the courage to walk up it all alone. You can't see what might be waiting at the top, and I guess that's a bit scary. So I got off and led him, which seemed to make him happy, along with several pauses to eat grass along the way. I got on and rode the rest of the way home, and Hero was very calm and relaxed. We came across a group of 8 deer, but Hero is very good about not spooking if he sees something like deer, even if they boing around. Amore can see deer, but still get startled when they actually move.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think with jumping, it helps to have a horse that is naturally swift on it's feet. I guess 12yrs ago when I evented I always looked at horses who were naturally surefooted and quick to protect and save themselves. I think the better a horse is trained and the more fit they are, it helps. As well as skill of the rider but falls and accidents still happen regardless of how well the horse is trained or how good the rider is. Once the fall happens, you're right it all happens the same. 

I notice jumping is a lot of instinct and of course training and feel matter but I find with jumpers, people either have that talent or they dont. Nicolai (the former international GP jumper that rode Wonder and owns Ranja) had such an incredible talent and feel for horses. He can make horses jump brilliantly and WANT to jump with confidence that would never dream of jumping but something in him is able to inspire and make the horse confident. He said when he rides, the horse tells him how to ride. And I notice jumpers tend to do that more than dressage riders (my theory on why jumpers can ride Wonder but dressage riders cant get him on the bit or steer). A lot of dressage riders like to put horses into a box and are so locked into their system of how is "should be" that they never stand outside of the box. They're so busy trying to conform the horse to their model that I feel many fail as listening to the horse. Even ones that have been trained by top and olympic riders, they almost do it worse sometimes. People either have the instincts and feel or they dont, training and teaching can make it better but I find more and more people have feel and instinct or they dont. Jumpers seem to listen more to the horse and rely more on instinct. I find jumpers (the good ones) cooperate and listen to the horse more vs dressage riders often have an tell-demand system that I simply disagree with.

However I do see where people starting in jumpers go much too high, too soon and just run horses at fences and dont care about how unstable their position or poor their eye is. It takes a lot of work and training to become good. And I think a lot of horses enjoy jumping, as long as riders are fair. I think versatility is important. 

Im really glad Hero is coming around and come so far this past year! I think with these guys it just takes time, especially if they have a past and history. You've done a lot of really good work, you should be proud of how far he's come. Especially if he's more confident and learning how to be secure in scary situations! I am however deeply jealous of your beach rides! I'd love to ride Wonder on the beach! Maybe next summer!


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## egrogan

> A nice thing about taking Hero out alone is that I can do the best ride for him, based on how he is feeling at the moment. If he struggles, I can easily get off and make things more positive, and this seems to be helping him a lot.


I can definitely relate to this. I love riding out with M and Coalie, and I also really like taking Fizz out on a good long ride on our own. When we're with Coalie, I do have to hold Fizz back to a slower walk than she's like to be going, and I feel bad doing that to her. We've gotten good at circles and serpentines though! And yesterday on our ride with them, we were mostly in the woods, where Coalie enjoys himself a lot more, so we were moving at a pace that was better for both of them. But I do appreciate our solo rides where we can do what's best for her.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> @SueC, can you play that fiddle piece? Great music. We're still playing the violin and cello often here.


:rofl: That's like asking me if I can play Paganini's _Caprices_! :rofl: I can play _Witches' Dance_, when I've been practising. ;-)

If you can get anywhere near _Tullochgorum_, I shall be like this: :bowwdown: :bowwdown: :bowwdown: :bowwdown: :bowwdown:

That's way above my playing level. inkunicorn:

Nice to hear you are still a chamber duo!  Music is so marvellous! :happydance:


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## SueC

I've not quite caught up with you guys yet, but I did hear a podcast today that had some really interesting stuff in it related to the discussion on the last page here. Why is there less cognitive bias here than in many groups? Apparently intelligence isn't key - it's _curiosity_, which all of us here have in spades. Turns out that's a major protective factor from thinking too much of our own opinions, and being willing to modify those with consistent incoming evidence to the contrary. People apparently can be intelligent and think themselves into all sorts of corners to justify a treasured position. But it's hard for people to be highly curious and then tend to do that... here's some excerpts from this podcast:



> *David Robson*: The intelligence trap has various forms, but maybe the best way for us to think about it is to compare the brain to a kind of car or vehicle, and in that kind of analogy intelligence and education would be a bit like the engine of the car, and obviously a faster engine can get you places a lot more quickly, but you also need the checks and balances to make sure that you are on track; you need a good GPS, you need good brakes, you need good steering. And in the same way I feel that some very intelligent people, they have a vast amount of brain power, but they also need checks and balances to make sure they apply that brain power correctly, otherwise their intelligence might actually make them even more wrong than people who have less brainpower. And there are various reasons why that could be but I think the best example from my perspective is if we talk again about climate change, if you look at people who have more right-wing politics, then it's actually the more intelligent among those people who are more likely to be climate change deniers. So they are clearly not applying their brain power to the evidence in a very rational way.
> *
> Lynne Malcolm*: David Robson gives the example of an individual who he says fell into the intelligence trap. US scientist Kary Mullis shared the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry with Michael Smith.
> *
> David Robson*: That's right, so he was a really brilliant biologist and chemist. He discovered the polymerase chain reaction which is now used in all kinds of genetic testing, so there's no doubting that he was an incredibly intelligent and creative man, but he has some very strange views which he has described in his own autobiography. You know, these aren't secret, they're very public. He believes that astrology is more useful than psychology or sociology to predict someone's path in life. He believes in UFOs and alien abductions. But really most troublingly he was also quite a prominent AIDS denialist, he completely denied the link between the HIV virus and AIDS, which I think is very problematic. Obviously it could cause a huge amount of harm. And it just seemed to me to really capture this idea that maybe a brilliant mind, if wrongly applied, could actually be quite dangerous.
> *
> Lynne Malcolm*: So there's a complex history of attempts to measure intelligence, including the concept of IQ. What are the limitations of these efforts to measure intelligence?
> *
> David Robson*: Well, first of all I would quite like to say that IQ is actually a fairly good measure of some really important skills. So it does predict, for example, your academic achievement. That was what it was designed to predict, so that's not so surprising, but it can also predict job performance in various careers, especially those that do require more abstract thinking. So it is important and I wouldn't want to dismiss IQ tests at all. But it doesn't really capture all of the skills that are necessary to good decision-making. Some of those could include what some people have termed practical intelligence, so that's more your ability to pick up on the unwritten rules around you and to know how to achieve what you want, not just by answering questions on an exam but by being very pragmatic in the way you go about planning and carrying out your own goals. So there's that, but there's also rationality which I think is even more interesting because I think the average person would expect a more intelligent person to be more rational. But actually there's a huge amount of research showing that IQ really doesn't predict our susceptibility or our resilience against cognitive biases very well at all, and sometimes intelligent people are a little bit more susceptible to some biases, including a kind of meta-bias called the bias blindspot. So more intelligent people are actually less likely to see the flaws in their own argument compared to other people's arguments.
> 
> *Lynne Malcolm*: David Robson describes this idea that you could be intelligent but have very poor rationality as disrationalia.
> 
> *David Robson*: So I would say Kary Mullis would be a prime example of that. And there's a number of causes of disrationalia, but one of them is cognitive miserliness it's called and that really means that you might be very intelligent, and when you apply your brain you really do get the right answer, but more often than not you don't really think in that analytical, deliberative way, you just rely on your gut instincts and your intuitions and hunches, and that actually leaves you open to all kinds of bias, it means that you are more likely to be swayed by your emotions, it means you're more likely to be swayed by the way information is framed rather than the actual details, you're more likely to fall for fake news and misinformation as a result of that. So it's really quite a serious issue, and there are a lot of very intelligent people who just don't apply their brains in this way.
> 
> *Robyn Williams*: Now listen to this, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle speaking early this century:
> *
> Sir Arthur Conan Doyle*: In 1887, some curious psychic experiences came my way, and especially I was impressed by the fact of telepathy, which I proved for myself by experiments with a friend. The question then arose: if two incarnate minds could communicate, is it possible for a discarnate one to communicate with one that is still in the body? For more than 20 years I examined the evidence, and came finally to the conclusion beyond all doubt, that such communication was possible.
> *
> Robyn Williams*: You can tell the way his mind worked, can't you, slightly less scientific then dear Sherlock Holmes. That was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, in the 1920s I'd guess.
> 
> *Lynne Malcolm*: Robyn Williams on the ABC's Science Show in 1985, with an archival recording of Arthur Conan Doyle.
> 
> David Robson tells the story of Arthur Conan Doyle's friendship with escape artist Harry Houdini in the 1920s.
> 
> *David Robson*: Yes, that's one of my favourite stories in the whole book. I think it perfectly captures this kind of mismatch between what we had traditionally considered intelligent and what is rational or a good application of intelligence. So Arthur Conan Doyle, as we know, was a medical doctor, he was very highly educated, he was the author of these amazing books. He actually understood logic very well, as we can see from Sherlock Holmes because he was really the supreme rationalist of literature. So Arthur Conan Doyle really should have been able to apply his logical brain in lots of different situations. You'd really hope he would have been rational in all areas of his life. But then he also fell time and time again for fraudulent mediums and a wasted a huge amount of money supporting those people. He also fell for the Cottingley fairies hoax, so he saw some teenage girls had put together these fake photographs of fairies at the bottom of their garden, and Arthur Conan Doyle felt for hook, line and sinker.
> 
> Now, Houdini was the total opposite. He didn't really have a very good formal education, though he was probably very intelligent, despite not having been able to prove that. But he was an absolute sceptic of all of these things, and he often tried to tell Arthur Conan Doyle that he was being duped by these mediums. He tried to present those very rational arguments to Arthur Conan Doyle, but Arthur Conan Doyle just wouldn't listen to them. And even worse, he actually constructed these really intricate arguments to explain why Houdini was wrong. I mean, one of the most farcical was he wrote a whole essay explaining why Houdini was in fact a paranormal being himself and so he was trying to cover up the existence of magic in the world so he could keep that a secret. And that to me really shows how your intelligence can actually help you to cover up your own mistakes and it can really push you down this path where your errors are amplified as a result.
> 
> *Lynne Malcolm*: So what makes some people more susceptible to these biases than others?
> *
> David Robson*: There are various traits that I discuss in the book that could either protect you from bias or could push you towards even greater bias. I can give a few of them. So one would be curiosity, which sounds like a fairly vague term, but in fact now scientists do have some good measures to look at who is curious and who isn't, and you can see that actually more curious people are more resilient against some of these biases, especially the kind of confirmation biases that are especially prevalent among very intelligent people. So, for example, whereas climate change denialism among Republicans increases among the highly intelligent, you see that actually among the highly curious it decreases. And that really seems to be because a curious person is always willing to look at the evidence, and the draw of the evidence and new facts is stronger than maybe their own ideology or beliefs, they are willing to update their beliefs because they just love information so much. So I would say curiosity is one of the best ways that people can protect themselves from these biases.
> 
> There are various others. One is called the growth mindset, and it seems fairly robust that at least in the short term having a growth mindset can help you to overcome challenges. But incidentally, the growth mindset also protects you from what we call motivated reasoning and confirmation bias because if you have a growth mindset you believe that your intelligence can always improve, you have this idea that you can always learn and get better, and that kind of makes you more humble because you realise that if you're wrong on one particular occasion, that doesn't really threaten your whole identity, it doesn't mean you're stupid, it just means there's more opportunity to learn. So having this growth mindset, this tendency to believe that your intelligence is always changing and increasing and is malleable can actually make you more rational as well as a result.
> 
> *Lynne Malcolm*: Many examples of the intelligence trap come down to how general intelligence can backfire, but sometimes highly specialised knowledge can be the culprit, can't it.
> 
> *David Robson*: Yes, that's right. I mean that's maybe one of the findings that I found most counterintuitive because you would really hope that if you have higher education and professional expertise, that would automatically improve your decision-making in those areas. But there are various reasons why sometimes the highly educated just aren't as rational as they should be. One of them is the perceptions of expertise can cause you to over-claim. So you begin to feel like you know everything that's possible to know about your subject, and in fact that kind of stops you from updating your knowledge with new information. That phenomenon is called earned dogmatism, and I think it's probably very common in all kinds of professions, say in medicine or definitely in politics you see potentially often among the most famous political pundits who have the most experience, they are actually often worse than chance at predicting political events, and that seems to be due to this earned dogmatism. They are so certain that they are right that they don't really update their forecasts and beliefs with new information that might actually allow them to be more accurate.
> 
> But there are other reasons that expertise can backfire, and one of them is just that if you have a lot of expertise your decision-making becomes very automatic, which is great because it means that doctors, for example, can diagnose patients very quickly, sometimes within minutes of you walking into their surgery, with a pretty high degree of accuracy. But that automatic behaviour does also leave you open to bias. It means when your intuitions are wrong you don't really question whether they might be wrong. So that also leaves you open to error in quite a few cases as well.



Gets you thinking, doesn't it? More here: https://www.abc.net.au/radionationa...nd/why-smart-people-do-stupid-things/11108336


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## bsms

I suspect a lot of very intelligent people are used to going unchallenged, simply because everyone knows they are intelligent. They are "experts" - at least in their field - and experts expect to be treated as such. Academia tends to be a very protective bubble, intellectually. And if a challenge DOES appear, the tendency is to try to modify existing belief - ie, find more convoluted ways the heavens can revolve around the earth (the models DID work pretty well, in their defense) rather than examine the possibility we go around the sun instead.

And there is then societal pressure not to rock the boat. For example, I'm a climate change skeptic. Not exactly a denier, since climate CHANGE is obvious. But skeptical about the extent to which humans drive the changes in climate. Skeptical we know with any precision what the climate WAS globally in 1850, let alone 7500 BC. And very skeptical that the solutions proposed would significantly affect anything. And glad that much of the US isn't currently under 2 miles of ice, although I wouldn't miss New York City much. Maybe a big ice cube could be put there...

Yet believers in climate change respond as if I suggested their grandmother had relations with various wild animals. The author of the article would say I'm an idiot, I think.

I like eccentric people. One thinking outside the box may be wrong 9 times out of 10, but that 10th time can create a leap forward. I can get conventional wisdom anytime. I'm flooded by it on all sides. Like anyone else, I can cruise along in the self-perpetuating echo chamber and never even be aware a different thought is possible. The eccentrics help shake me up.

Also, as I get older, I get more eccentric. Too many things I was told in years gone by have been stripped from certainty, if not overturned. 

*Mar. 26, 1984*










*July 19, 1999*








BTW - my professional area of expertise, to whatever extent I had it, was electronic warfare. Near the end of my career, I believed a certain piece of equipment (can't say which) was unimaginable. Laughable!

Then I found out it had been built 5 years earlier.    

"_There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy._"​
We all need to practice saying "Oops".

BTW - "It has always been. It must always be." is fundamental to our existence. We could not drive a car down the road if we had to learn each car WAS a car. We function by generalizing from previous experience so we don't have to waste brain cells examining each individual item. "Prejudice" - pre-judging - allows us to function. I don't remember the title, but there was a book about how we determine risk that discussed, at length, a snowmobiler killed in an avalanche. If the guy had stopped to think for a moment, he'd have realized how stupid his action was. Yet we live by not thinking. We don't have time to think about everything. It enables us to function AND it is very dangerous when it goes wrong.

The oddballs are the ones who get us to pause, if just for a moment, to check. Thank God for odd people!


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## SueC

I was thinking about what you wrote, @bsms, and about this neat little discussion group. I like that we can all have sometimes quite divergent opinions, and not get put off interacting with one another because of it. (At least after cooling down again, sometimes! :Angel The way that works for me: I like and respect everyone who's a regular in this discussion group. To mention the people I interact with most regularly and fondly on this particular host journal, in alphabetical order ;-) - @bsms, @DanteDressageNerd, @egrogan, @gottatrot, @Knave, @knightrider - I really like all of you, and respect your thinking, and I care about whether you're happy or sad, and whether you're achieving your goals in life - big ones, little ones, and whether you're in a good place personally (because life can be really tough).  In part that's because you've all been "real" online, too - because you've shared about who you are, what's important to you and why, and bits and pieces from your everyday lives outside of horses, so that it's possible to "get" you guys in an actually significant way. We've discussed things that generally don't get discussed outside a circle of "real-world" close friends, and I consider myself fortunate to be able to consult such a bunch of people from all over the globe on all manner of subjects, and to laugh with you all too. 

(If you're not on the above list it doesn't mean I don't care two hoots, it just means either that I've been forgetful, or that you're not usually on this particular journal, or that I don't feel I know you well enough to be able to say what I said above!)

I'm going to give an example of how coming to various people's journals has been good for my thinking and general perceptions of life. Apart from obvious stuff, like having windows into other interesting worlds!  Landscape pictures too, as part of that. On-ground, and often on-horse, journalism! ;-) Gorgeous writing, anecdotes to make you laugh, and sometimes to make you wince in empathy and think, "Yeah, I know how that feels!" Recipes - like lovely pumpkin and sage risotto, or that thanks to @egrogan I learnt to make felafels that don't fall apart and we now dine on these luscious little things on a regular basis. Also, how you think about the issues in the countries you're in, world issues, regional issues, interpersonal issues, all sorts of issues. How you do life.

But the example I wanted to give today was about carrying guns. I'm from a society where this was never such a major part of life as it is in the US, and like a lot of people from such societies, I'm horrified by US gun violence and the statistics around that, and the kind of political lobbying and deal-making around that - and by gun violence in general, violence in general, full stop, including simulated gratuitous movie violence for "entertainment" rather than to make people think about the issues. When Port Arthur happened here, like the majority of Australians, I applauded the toughened gun legislation that the government at the time implemented in response to it. I feel safer now because of it, not necessarily because we're always going to be able to stop lunatics from obtaining weapons with which to mow down a bunch of civilians, but because it's made it harder for that to happen - and the statistics on general gun injuries since then (not massacres, which are quite rare here) bear that out. I think guns should not be easy to obtain, and that the people who get licensed to use them should be of good character and responsible. Of course, that's hard to pin down, but it's worth making the effort.

Because I've personally known a few people who were threatened with guns by their dysfunctional partners, who should never have had a gun license. Because it's hard to prove this has happened, some of these people retained their licenses, and that's terrible. I also come from a dysfunctional family. When we moved to a farm, my father and brother both obtained gun licenses for pest control and to be able to humanely put down injured livestock if necessary. I do think most farmers should have a .22 for those reasons, but please, not the dysfunctional, bullying sorts of farmers either. (One dude like that recently shot dead a Department of Agriculture official who had come to see him about illegal habitat destruction / land clearing.)

While my parents were rather dysfunctional, one thing they didn't do is involve guns in their violence, ever, thankfully; at least not in my presence. Not even as a verbal threat. These things were locked away and only brought out for rabbit hunting or emergency euthanasia. But, my brother's ex-wife, also from a dysfunctional family, was a gun license holder, and when my brother got his barely-out-of-school secretary pregnant while still married, and my mother rejoiced in this matter, my ex-sister-in-law went on a gun rampage, which involved chasing my brother down the road, her car behind his, shooting at his car. I was working 400km away at the time and received a phone call at work warning me that she had sworn not just to exterminate him, but everyone with related DNA living in Australia, and that she'd said she was coming for me. I took that with a grain of salt because she didn't actually know where I lived or worked, but it was good to be forewarned. The police got involved in the matter, and it ended there. I'm not exactly sure of the details, of whether she lost her license, but she clearly needed to have her license taken off her - and should never have been able to obtain one in the first place... Psychological testing would have been nice. She, like my brother and parents, was a bully, and very narcissistic and self-aggrandising. Sometimes you can't peg people like that in a test because they can conceal it so well, but I strongly feel that narcissists with proclivities to bullying ought never to be able to get a firearms license - even if that would exclude people like my parents, whose gun ownership, as far as I know, was responsible.

My brother used to really worry me when I was in my 20s, by telling me he could really see why partners shot their deserting spouses dead "because marriage is for life" - last time I looked, marriage wasn't a jail sentence, and it's absolutely conditional on continuing respect and goodwill. You don't hold someone hostage, or threaten to kill them, or actually kill them, because your relationship didn't work out. My brother also had a general ego problem. He hunted - that was his reason for a license before he became a veterinarian - but he hunted not to fulfill ecological responsibilities in the absence of other top predators, or to eat, he hunted primarily because it gave him a thrill to end the life of something else, to have that much control. All the hunting magazines he got made me want to throw up, with their covers depicting strutting men with smug facial expressions posing with one foot standing on the deer or boar or kangaroo they had shot. It was so, so disrespectful to the animal, and so clearly about posturing and thinking you were the king of the jungle. I still detest people who hunt for such reasons, and I know quite a few. They also subscribe to the view that Port Arthur was a conspiracy, staged by the government so they could tighten gun control on the population. The same way some lunatics in the US are claiming that the Sandy Hook shootings were just pretend. It's sickening.

With an epidemic of domestic violence in Australia, I also don't think ordinary suburbanites here should in general be carrying guns. I can see why farmers need them - although I think we should be tough on trying to vet out people who aren't of good character, imperfect as such a process is bound to be. But if people just want to target shoot, they can take up other sports that don't involve possessing lethal weapons which can kill people at a distance. Like playing pub darts, or using recurve target-shooting bows.

So having said all that, I know @bsms, @Knave and @gottatrot have gun licenses and carry weapons, and this has been a useful rounding out of my "gun education." For starters, I would consider you to be highly likely to be of very good character, and a low risk of pursuing someone down the road shooting at their car when in a fit of rage, and an even lower risk of massacring a crowd. The way you approach your animals alone shows me this - and hey, maybe this could be a component of the psychological testing - approach to horses. ;-) I also know that you live in a different society to my own, and things are different for you. Your society is clearly more dangerous, outside of the context of domestic violence. How guns come into this is probably a bit of a chicken-and-egg debate, but I totally understand the need to be able to defend your own life. I used to carry bear-targeting pepper spray on my solo hikes as a young woman, just in case. However, I would highly probably only have had to contend with someone fighting only with their own bodies, and at the utmost a knife, and I felt pepper spray was a match for that, and would allow me to get clear. For defense against a gun-slinger, not so effective.

But it was good for me to meet people who weren't the sorts I was perpetually encountering in Australia, who should never have been given a firearms license. I previously knew more people who shouldn't have had one, than people who I felt were safe to have one - like our farming neighbours to the east of us. (They also have a lovely approach to their animals - not the dominating type.)

I could give many more examples of how hanging out with you lot rounds me out.  Like being essentially something of a pacifist, but hanging out with an ex-fighter pilot. Or an English rider, hanging out with cowboys. ;-) :cowboy: Just rounds things out, makes you think. Have a lovely day, all of you.


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## Knave

@SueC that was a lovely post. I understand what you mean by having this group of friends. We are all so different, but we all overlap too. I don’t have a lot of face to face social interaction, you all pretty much read about the interactions I do have and most of the people who are in my life. (I do have a couple more real life friends, like cowchick77 who I talk to regularly.)

I like having this group though, including a couple more I talk to here. I guess it is akin to being in some sort of club or on a team. I like that we are all different. I also particularly enjoy that no one seems to get frustrated about our variations. It gives me a different point of view to consider when I disagree, although I might not change my opinion I respect each of you and consider each of you to be my friend.

ETA- I don’t really consider my firearms to be for self defense. Of course I would use one if I needed to in an emergency to protect my family, and this comforts me, but I have never had reason to think I would need to. We have them for hunting (never wasteful), protecting our own animals from predators (remember my coyote war?), and of course euthanizing suffering animals. 

We do teach our children to use firearms because they are required to know safety rules where guns are around in their lives. My father pounded this into me, and I stress the importance of safety and firearm knowledge to my children.


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## SueC

I'm glad you are feeling that safe, @Knave!  You seem to live in a good part of your country - people a bit more connected to the earth, which is always helpful. And obviously, you need your firearms because farming!  I can only get away with not having a gun out here because I have a neighbour with a gun five minutes away if an animal needs putting out of its misery - and he's done that twice for us now, one time my old Arabian mare when the veterinarian who was supposed to put her down didn't and just gave her painkillers and said, "She'll be right!" like Australians do, but when the painkillers wore off she was in agony and I called our neighbour instead of arguing with the veterinarian and waiting until he had leisure to come out again. (I no longer have that veterinarian, he was an ineffectual one between excellent ones.) The other was a kangaroo with a broken leg hopping about painfully after a road accident, actually in his paddock next to ours, and he was promptly there after we called him up. If not for that, I'd have to bite the bullet myself, and get a gun. ;-)

I was going to just talk about @bsms and me having different opinions about anthropogenic climate change, and why that's not such a big deal to me. It would be a much bigger deal if he was some industrialist who owned a coal-fired power station and who had a huge vested interest in holding a "climate skeptic" view - or some person who's living in a centrally heated mansion with 20 rooms, with his ten children and the family's twelve 4WDs / SUVs, one for each of them. Or even - and I get this in the Australian Grass Roots community I loosely belong to - when some hippies who actually shout loudly about anthropogenic climate change being a big evil go out to "live close to nature" with their dozen children, and start with a biodiverse bush block, and end up with a degraded bush block with ringbarked trees from the goats they keep and the understorey all eaten out and gone extinct, and all the associated biota down the tube as well - and they can't see how any of this is harmful, or that they're a significant part of driving habitat destruction and Australian species extinction - they can only see the problem when it's other people doing it, especially when they look different from themselves. They'd be aghast to hear my perspective on what their lifestyle is doing to the things they claim to be caring about. Just because you look like the bush version of Swiss Family Robinson doesn't mean you are living in a way that's not ultra-harmful to the planet. The Grass Roots community has trouble coming to grips with this - it's always so much easier when it's other people we can point the finger at - and this remains the elephant in the room very few people want to talk about. But it's appearances versus reality... and just because something looks a certain way, doesn't mean it is.

As a biologist / environmental scientist by training, experience and inclination, I am painfully aware that post-hunter-gatherer humans are the worst species that's ever happened to the Earth's biosphere - they are to natural ecosystems that took millions of years to evolve what termites are to wooden beams in your home. You can literally see this on any Google Earth view of the planet - the way humans have destroyed the majority of ancient ecosystems on the face of the planet, to make way for agriculture and industry. I don't personally privilege humans over any other species. I don't think we're worth more, and therefore we deserve to do this. You could argue we're only doing what any species tries to do - perpetuate itself to the best of its ability. Well, we're champions at that, for sure. But, we do have brains that can think and reflect about whether what we're doing is a good thing, and that's where human beings really disappoint me, in general. Anyway, that's a big topic and has lots of debates, and is not my point here.

What is my point is that I'm way more interested in whether people care about the planet and try to live in a way that reflects that, than what their official position is on anthropogenic climate change. Bill, for a long time, was a climate skeptic. He'd say, "Well, I remember the drought of 1945!" etc. In his case, he's not formally educated in statistics and natural history, or data handling. And funnily, he recently about-turned on that topic, because he saw an Attenborough programme on it, and then he said to me, "Oh wow, I didn't know that!" He very much respects Attenborough - which, by the way, isn't a good enough reason for me personally to hold a particular position, but I'm a trained professional in this area (and if I remember correctly, @bsms too did a Biology degree?), and I like to make my own assessments. I happen to agree with Attenborough on lots of things, on analysis, but the point is, Bill being a climate skeptic wasn't a big issue for me either, because you wouldn't get many people with a smaller environmental footprint, and more love and respect for the planet, than this guy.  

He's a wonderful amateur naturalist, he personally helped preserve the biodiversity of the bush block we now steward because he used to be involved in mosaic burning it Aboriginal-style, along with much of the other bushland in this district. He knew where the Brown Boronias were, and came to see us when we were newly living here to tell us where they were and that they needed a fire. We've learnt so much from him about the local ecology, because he grew up here, and worked on this land for so long, and because he really _sees_ the bush, and the wildlife.

And he spent decades of his life living in a caravan out in the bush, with a solar panel to run his breadmaker, and a gas fridge, and a camping generator for backup, and using very few modern resources, and therefore he had one of the lowest environmental footprints of anyone I've ever known. So it really didn't matter what he thought about anthropogenic climate change, because if everyone lived like he did, the planet would be so much better off. Very few people are in a position to lecture Bill. 

I care that people care for the planet, and treat it with respect. I have issues with people who don't care, and treat it with utter disrespect. I don't mean doing harm via ignorance, I mean doing harm because they really don't care, not about the planet or other people. I have known people like that, and would not be comfortable being friends with them. But that's nobody in this group, by a long long shot. You all get the concept of stewardship, and I've felt your love for nature from a hemisphere away, and seen it in your photographs.


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## bsms

I've skimmed thru a couple of books on climate change but don't have the interest to dive deeply into it. I am deeply skeptical that we know, to within 0.1 degree, what the average world-wide temperature was in 1825. Let alone 1125. I am, with every passing decade, more skeptical of "settled science" and even more so of government agencies. And I'm not sure anyone in politics, on any side, has an honest bone in their body.

Let's use horses for an example, since this is a horse forum. After 11 years of living with and riding a couple of horses - not vast experience I admit - what I observe is often in conflict with what is taught as accepted truth in many texts. It conflicts with some "science", if by science one means the popular, 3 sentence take-away summaries tossed out versus reading the original report INCLUDING how the experiment was designed.

I'm eccentric and probably wrong on a number of issues. Certainly narrow-focused! But I'm also noticing the longer I'm around horses, the more I diverge from conventional wisdom - that horses are flighty and rather stupid creatures who need a strong leader, that horses are unbalanced unless the rider learns to shape them, that we improve horses by training them to just obey us, etc.

I rode Bandit Sunday in our little arena. Because of a discussion on seated canter versus two point versus standing in the stirrups, I tried doing the last with him as much as I could Sunday...and my legs are still sore from the work of standing in the stirrups as he cantered through some 25 foot diameter circles. Seated, he didn't offer any tight circles. Nothing under 50+ feet.

Of course, that could mean I suck at riding and my sitting canter sucks so bad. But I've watched enough videos of professionals riding, in slow motion, to suspect I'm not THAT bad. And when I watch videos of unmounted horses cantering in slow motion, the movement they use would obviously be made harder by a rider sitting deep in the saddle.

So...I plan on working harder to improve my "standing in the stirrups canter". Doesn't mean there is no role for sitting in a canter. There is. But based on how Bandit responds, I reject the idea that two point refers to two knees, or that sitting - at least by anyone who isn't genuinely a fine rider - helps the horse use himself to his fulllest.

Maybe I'm wrong. But almost no one nowadays teaches standing in the stirrups. There are a hundred books and a thousand videos extolling the virtues of shaping a horse with one's seat. Even if I'm missing something, promoting an alternative and admitting it works well with my horse at least suggests there is more than one solution possible. 

I'm a Baptist, so I guess I can "confess" something. When I read the Bible, I do so with my "Baptist glasses" on. I can comfortably read the same text 50 times and assume it confirms my beliefs as a Baptist. I need to sometimes encounter other views - Catholic or even cultists - to knock me out of my rut and make me dig in, looking with eyes open to some other possibility. _Like any human, I can motor down an intellectual interstate on cruise control barely noticing my surroundings or other cars._ Doesn't matter if it is religion or politics or global warming or riding horses. I'm intellectually lazy and comfortable with assuming what I think IS reality, unless someone challenges me.

I may end back up close to where I started. I don't use a Forward Seat when Bandit and I are strolling down a trail, but when Bandit needs to use his body to its fullest? Then I keep finding what Caprilli and Littauer wrote works better for us than anything else I've encountered. So I'm a western rider who loves a "Jump Seat"...:evil:...hate that phrase! Littauer was right - it is a Forward SYSTEM of riding.

Oh well. I think, @SueC, what I mostly see is people want to live UNCHALLENGED LIVES. If they have the 70% solution, then why try anything to get to 73%? What does it really matter?

*But it does!*

To those who don't want to be too comfortable! 

:cheers:​


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## bsms

PS: Global warming or not, the unending growth of the human population seems to me to be the biggest challenge to our environment. It certainly is hard on Arizona. I'd rather be a skeptic who wants to reduce his footprint than a believer who jets around the world telling others to cut back...:Angel:


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## SueC

bsms said:


> PS: Global warming or not,* the unending growth of the human population seems to me to be the biggest challenge to our environment*. It certainly is hard on Arizona. I'd rather be a skeptic who wants to reduce his footprint than a believer who jets around the world telling others to cut back...:Angel:


100% with you on that. Sustainable human population was surpassed a long time ago. Adding more people to the population is what growth economists, and real estate agents etc, looooove, because it drives their profits...at the expense of the long term, but people generally don't care as their lives are short-term, historically speaking, "I'm all right Jack, get your hands off my stack" etc, and often, people's lives are too short and they are too disconnected from nature to actually notice we have a big problem here. People are still mowing down remnant ecosystems and will continue to do so while the human population increases. This can't get stop while the human population expands. Not to mention the industrial agriculture which is slowly becoming the only way to be able to feedlot all those masses of humans in their cities, or the inevitable extra resource consumption of each additional person over and above replacement rate - and the resource consumption footprint per capita is still increasing on average, as well - amplifying the deleterious effects of the added numbers. But, pretty much nobody but some biologists wants to hear this, or be reminded of it, and politicians live in cloud cuckoo-land - not to mention in the even shorter term that the political term represents....

There actually is such a thing as steady-state economics, which doesn't depend on ever-expanding consumption. It doesn't produce huge profits for the people at the helm though - just a livable future for people in general - but to get there, people have to adopt the idea of having _enough_ into their vocabularies, and lives - instead of always wanting more, the latest everything, etc. This is not a dig at people living under the poverty line - we need social justice as well. But how are we going to get that, when the richest 1% now own 50% of the planet's resources, and self-serving legislation keeps driving the resources their way....


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## gottatrot

Great posts, I am grateful to have people to discuss things with who are not threatened by every point of disagreement. For one thing, I don't even agree completely with my siblings who were raised in exactly the same environment that I was. So how could I expect that other people who have had completely different experiences, and live in different environments with different input would believe exactly as I do?

I really like hearing about how people have arrived at their conclusions, and what @SueC shared about intelligence and curiosity was so interesting. In my opinion, any belief worth having will hold up to intense scrutiny. So to me that means I don't have to consider my beliefs as "me" or my personality, but any of them are open to change. Some won't change, I am quite sure, just because I think there are things in life that are absolute truth. Still, believing that means they can be open to discussion and scrutiny as well. 

If your core identity is not based on things you are worried might not hold up under debate, then I think you can have beliefs and be more relaxed about it. Curiosity _can_ drive you, since you don't feel that your current knowledge might be threatened, and if it is threatened, it might ruin your sense of self. This means that dogma is unnecessary. It also means you don't have to value people based on how their beliefs match yours. If your beliefs do not equal your own worth, then having other beliefs does not automatically mean you need to see others as having less worth for having other beliefs.

A problem I do run into in life is that sometimes sharing your beliefs with the wrong person will make them consider you a lesser person, because your beliefs do not match theirs. In many cases I will not share things with people who I have learned value people based on how similar they are to themselves. Something I've also noticed is that people will put others into boxes, and think that if a person has one belief, they automatically hold other beliefs that they think go along with that one. For example, if someone has a gun, does that mean they think positively about war, or think automatic weapons should be legal, or want gun ownership to be an easy process? Do they embrace the hunting culture, or are they fearful people who want to own a gun because they feel insecure in their everyday life?

In my opinion, people are complicated. One belief or act does not put you into a category that automatically means you have a bunch of other beliefs that go along with it. An example is my uncle, who is bipolar but takes medications and has never had hallucinations. He held down a job as a prison RN all his life, has never been violent and strongly believes in pacifism. He is completely against war. He owns a gun. He probably wouldn't use it even to save his own life, but sometimes when he is manic he is out all night in unsafe places, walking around. He has saved himself from muggings by showing his gun a couple of times. Probably most bipolar people should not have a firearm. There is really no indicator that my uncle would ever be unsafe with his gun, since he has unusual insight into his mental illness and he has never been hospitalized. Things like this mean I find it difficult to even say what criteria should rule you out for owning a gun. Violence in your past, yes. Except, what if your ex reported you falsely for domestic violence because she was a vindictive person and you wanted to leave her? 

So along these lines, I also can't say for certain that we understand exactly how much global warming is related to our human activities. The world seems to show signs of extreme temperature variations in the past, with ice ages and tropical phases before the human population was affecting it. We just haven't been measuring things long enough to understand how and why temperatures change over time, in my opinion. Still, I also believe humans are impacting the world in terrible ways, polluting the oceans, and creating massive waste. That doesn't mean every time I watch a show with animals or glaciers in them I want to hear a long sermon about how bad humans are. I think education is great, but along with that education we should have shows about the beautiful earth that help people feel positive and want to care for it. Just being negative can make people feel that it is a lost cause, in my view. 

I am an optimist, and I think we can cut back on our waste and pollution, but people need to think of animals and nature as important and valuable. Instead, they put animals in shelters when they don't fit their lifestyle, and let horses starve or try to sell them when they are too old to ride. The biggest problem is that people are taught to value self above all, and that their own comfort and feelings are the most important. As long as people feel that way, they will pollute and put up structures that wipe out areas of natural beauty. 
Still, in optimism, this self centeredness is also self limiting. It leads to excessive use of chemicals to make a person feel better or look better, and over indulgence. Very soon people will begin having shorter lifespans again, and many preventable diseases are increasing. Hopefully, should help bring down the population by quite a bit. With less people, everyone will do better.


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## gottatrot

You all know I have a high opinion of rats. Now they've trained them to drive cars.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2220721-scientists-have-trained-rats-to-drive-tiny-cars-to-collect-food/?fbclid=IwAR347MZBrZxcurTDzzDGRjvtQy3VN_96ckDUlsgno34GitGlGEtX8s6Ko1w


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## gottatrot

Here is an interesting article about some reasons a trainer/blogger does not use the one rein stop.

https://crissimcdonald.com/2019/10/21/one-rein-thoughts/?fbclid=IwAR28v8isAmuyb1pxZde9mjrZsrxAJ5m01idNFvvxbHKZS6RuAdP18taq53I



> Shelly found the mounting block and got on Jewel, I saw the mare tense her whole body and then try to shoot forward. Before Jewel could rush more than a couple of strides, Shelly had bent the mare’s head around to the stirrup and they were circling in the middle of the arena.
> 
> It was apparent to me that this was an established pattern by the way Jewel quickly gave up and braced to a stop. Shelly held the mare in this position for a few seconds more before releasing her and walking over to where I stood.
> 
> “So is that normal?” I asked.
> 
> “Sure,” Shelly said. “It doesn’t happen every time, but it does happen enough that I’m ready for her.”
> 
> I asked Shelly if Jewel had always felt the need to rush away when a rider was on her, and she said yes, but after learning the one rein stop at another clinic she’d attended, at least she and Jewel weren’t going too far.
> 
> “So when you got her, she did this? She would feel like she had to take off the moment her rider was on her?”
> 
> Shelly nodded. “I’ve had to use the one rein stop more often in the last six months because if we go from walk to trot to canter she goes faster than I’m asking. I’m not sure how to make her stop other than using one rein.”





> “Oftentimes, the one rein stop is taught and used as a training tool that is supposed to solve the problem of a horse who is going too fast. Sometimes it’s used as a punishment because it’s an effective way to control movement. But,” I added, “the downside is that a one rein stop, if used often enough, can sometimes make a horse nervous about moving at all.”
> 
> Shelly asked why it was taught so much, and why other trainers swore by it. I could tell she felt confused about the fact that she may have been inadvertently adding to Jewel’s nervousness.
> 
> “Honestly? I don’t know why other trainers use it so much. When I first started training I used it a lot too. It’s an emergency brake of sorts, and it gives the rider a way to slow a horse down who’s unable to respond to any sort of pressure.”
> 
> “But here’s the thing: it’s quite often used as a bandaid. Meaning, a one rein stop is a poor substitute for taking the time to educate the horse about what stopping is. While it is good in an emergency, it’s not very good as an every day training strategy.”


I've been thinking about what @bsms wrote about sitting versus standing in the stirrups, and riding with the seat. 
It's true, there is a lot written about the seat, and influencing the horse with the seat. I remember a dressage instructor a long time ago telling me I had an insecure seat, and that I needed to work on it. She had some advice about deepening seat bones and softening various areas of my body, which all did squat when it came to riding a hard spin or spook. 

When "seat" is mentioned, I want to understand exactly what is meant, and what the horse is really experiencing versus our woo woo romanticized ideas about it. Even science fails us with dearly held beliefs, that are spread even when it can be observed by even non-scientists that the "facts" are not true, which makes me understand that widely spread, non-scientific ideas about horses can be even more off track. 
An example of this is from visiting a limestone cave, where we were told stalagmites form extremely slowly, a few cm of growth taking 1,000 years. Yet next to the sign explaining this, we observed a drip that had formed a fairly large stalagmite on top of the asphalt path in the cave, that was obviously not laid down 1,000 years ago. So why were they still explaining these facts when there was obvious evidence that those facts were wrong? It's almost like if something is spread around, there is no way to say it is incorrect. I think we find this in the horse world very often. Something is "off" in the data.

What are we really doing with our seat, and what is meant by it? I know what the popular ideas are about it. However, what is really happening? Doing things with our seat is usually doing things with the legs that are attached below it. It also is usually doing things with the torso and the center of gravity that is balanced above it. 
Like what is really happening in this picture? Is the rider driving the horse forward with their seat bones? Or...is leaning back opening the hip joints and creating more squeeze with the thighs and/or calf? Or is putting the weight back on the horse taking weight off the forehand, meaning less inhibition to the drive from the hind which the rider interprets as a response to the driving seat bones? 









Do the seat bones that connect to a saddle tree really influence a horse, or does the rider's weight and legs and upper body balance influence the horse? Perhaps to some it does not matter. However, if you are thinking about why a horse might balance more easily with a rider standing in the stirrups or in two point, it could matter.


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## Knave

I think @bsms that you can ride well standing or sitting. What I’ve noticed is that a couple horses have only been comfortable rides when I stand. Something about their movements or build... both very hot and athletic horses, they probably wouldn’t have been off balance no matter what I did though. They were impossible to sit much on though for me. Then there are horses like Cash, for who standing would be uncomfortable for him and for me.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, it can be hard to stand on a very big/wide horse. 

I stole this really good quote from @bsms from another thread about learning how to canter.



> Two point is all about balance, and finding how to get your balance in synch with the horse. The Forward Seat was all about shifting the rider's balance to match the horse rather than teaching the horse to shift HIS balance back under the rider - collection. When you "stand in the stirrups", your leg MUST have contact with the horse. Even with a horse as slender as Bandit. But the key is not to rely on gripping the horse with your thighs, but letting the weight flow past the knee into the stirrups. When you do that, two point is not much different than stand on an escalator. And your security becomes your LOWER leg, not your thigh. That is good when a horse spooks or balks.
> 
> For a beginning rider, standing in the stirrups develops a feel for the horse's balance. Without that feel, one cannot ride in balance with the horse. Sitting back and leaning back in the saddle puts one well behind the horse, making the horse work harder. And horses notice. Riding from the knee up removes two of the "hinges" that allow a rider to reduce impact on the horse's back. They notice.
> 
> One doesn't need to shorten the stirrups much to stand in them. Get too high above the saddle and it will throw you and your horse off balance - unless you have a lot of core strength. But to protect the horse's back and save him energy, an inch is enough to make a difference.


I had several riding instructors try to teach me how to two point. It was extremely difficult, and I remember getting in my car after a lesson and my legs were shaking from muscle fatigue. I believe I was doing something like this:








The instructor encouraged me to stay up as long as possible, and even at the walk it was very challenging! I was holding myself hoovered up there basically trying to do the splits on two wobbly banana peels.
Later I learned how to do two point with my legs remaining on the horse *as if* I were sitting, but merely raising my seat out of the saddle. It was as @bsms says, as easy as riding on an escalator. In all of my riding, I am doing some version of taking the weight off the saddle, even slightly. I never sit in the saddle like I'm sitting on a chair. It may take a couple ounces of weight off my seat and put it into my legs, or it may lift me completely off the saddle. Regardless, I've found it helps my balance in all riding to be able to easily adjust and lift myself off the saddle at will in a moment.


----------



## bsms

One of my faults in trying to do two point is leaning like in that photo, or crouching similar to Gen Patton:








It is much easier for me to stand above my two feet than to crouch above them, even on a floor. I think Gen Patton would have been better off with longer stirrups and a more vertical body. If I stand more in a canter, Bandit is pretty happy:








If I crouch more, and in this case, also drop into the seat part of each stride, trying to use my "seat" to urge him on, he is NOT happy:








I think I am "urging him on", keeping him going while in a tight turn in our little arena. In reality, I think I'm annoying him and getting in his way. A sitting canter where my rump polishes the seat AS he moves is fine. Although the sticky Abetta makes it harder because one cannot polish an Abetta....

However, if I try to initiate or shape his movement, he gets upset. He doesn't buck, thrash his head or refuse. But he sure is not feeling like we are one, moving together. And when I don't interfere, he'll OFFER to turn a canter in a 30 foot diameter circle sometimes, but he NEVER does so when I try to use my seat. Maybe my failure, but I suspect a lot of part-time recreational riders like myself are in that boat!

I pulled out my slick seat saddle the other day. The good news is that it was easier to do a sitting canter with a happy Bandit:








The bad news is it was much harder to feel safe and secure in when Bandit takes a few hops sideways, or (on a trail) canters at a 30 degree angle to our direction of travel while he looks at something for a few seconds. It is partially a tack issue and partially a training issue - and my training is affected by my choice of tack. And it is partially how I choose to ride Bandit since I want him feeling free enough to canter at an angle for a few seconds...but it is hard to feel safe doing so in a slick seat saddle. He also feels free to turn sharp at a canter. I like it but I also find it a challenge.

"_In all of my riding, I am doing some version of taking the weight off the saddle, even slightly. I never sit in the saddle like I'm sitting on a chair. It may take a couple ounces of weight off my seat and put it into my legs, or it may lift me completely off the saddle. Regardless, I've found it helps my balance in all riding to be able to easily adjust and lift myself off the saddle at will in a moment._" - @gottatrot

This. Completely.

Maura was a former moderator and experienced jumper who helped me a lot when I first started riding and posting on HF. She left HF for health issues. I miss her. She was quite patient with me, which is probably how she worked horses too. But she wrote this about learning to canter:



maura said:


> Riding the canter correctly and well in a full seat is difficult, and many more riders do it badly than do it well. As Allison stated above, it requires a degree of abdominal fitness, as well as correct position, relaxation and a good understanding of gait mechanics and how the horse's back moves. That's out of reach for a lot of recreational riders. I would much rather see an elementary or intermediate rider cantering in half seat, allowing the horse to move freely, than someone attempting and failing a full following seat and punishing the horse's back in the process.
> 
> There is nothing inherently insecure about riding the canter in half-seat or two point as long as the rider is in balance.


https://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/riding-canter-half-seat-120340/

It could be a training issue for me, but this rings true for me as a self-taught rider: "_I would much rather see an elementary or intermediate rider cantering in half seat, allowing the horse to move freely, than someone attempting and failing a full following seat and punishing the horse's back in the process._"

But I'll also point out a western lope, like a western jog, is much easier to sit without punishing the horse. Bandit is more of a trot/canter kind of horse and probably always will be. Maybe his personality. Maybe his racing time. Or maybe both. He almost never jogs or lope. Mia, OTOH, had an incredible jog! But not Bandit.


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## bsms

Also, from Allison Finch on the same thread about cantering in a half-seat...

Another newish rider wrote, "_IME, learning to ride the canter in a full seat was not all that difficult. And easier than doing it in a half seat._"

Allison replied, "_Then may I say you are one in a million (or more)? I disagree that cantering in half seat is less stable, if done correctly. If you are grasping with your knee, your lower leg will disengage and usually slip back. THEN, your upper body will be unstable and topple forward. If you keep your lower leg at the girth and the weight in your stirrups, you will be extremely stable. That is why we adopt this position on XC and jumping even when the gallop speed is not requiring it._"

That is my experience, too. Which is why I argue against gripping with the knee, making it stationary. I can no more ride using my knees to support me than I can walk using them.

I've also, however, have almost never been on a Quarter Horse. They all look twice as wide as Bandit, maybe more. It may be significant that 13 hand Cowboy feels wider between my legs than 15 hand Bandit or 15.3 hands of Mia did!


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## Knave

I get what you are saying @bsms and Gotta. Those quotes made a lot of sense to me. 



Actually, the horses I required that half seat for both our comfort was my little cutting and gaming mare and our Beamer. Beamer isn't going a mile a minute like that mare did, and he's built heavier than she was, but he is jumpy and carries himself very uphill. I may see a similar mode of going in Bandit (in photos). Beamer is funny to watch; he looks like those old movie cowboy horses. His head and shoulders are up, his eyes always betray a bit of nervousness, and yet he is the horse we own I would trust in any situation. Of course, no squeezing or kicking allowed or he will get his panties in a twist and you cannot slow him down all day. 



Cash is super heavy and I would be very uncomfortable if I stood on him.


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## knightrider

From @SueC quoting David Robson


> And there's a number of causes of disrationalia, but one of them is cognitive miserliness it's called and that really means that you might be very intelligent, and when you apply your brain you really do get the right answer, but more often than not you don't really think in that analytical, deliberative way, you just rely on your gut instincts and your intuitions and hunches, and that actually leaves you open to all kinds of bias, it means that you are more likely to be swayed by your emotions, it means you're more likely to be swayed by the way information is framed rather than the actual details, you're more likely to fall for fake news and misinformation as a result of that. So it's really quite a serious issue, and there are a lot of very intelligent people who just don't apply their brains in this way.


I know the discussion has gone long past this fascinating topic, but I've been away for almost a week and finally starting to catch up on peoples' journals. This quote helped me tremendously understand a phenomenon that I've had a lot of concern about what is going on in the US. I've looked and studied and searched why people I used to respect and think were intelligent suddenly seem to have no brain at all. This quote was a significant piece to my puzzle. Thank you ever so much!!!!


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## Knave

That definitely is a good descriptor for much of our peer's bias I think @knightrider. It confuses me too, and I couldn't quite put my finger on it.


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## SueC

@knightrider, you're very welcome, and it's an excellent podcast. Also you might like this one - I think you might _all_ like this one - on synaesthesia - and especially the musical amongst you - it features an 11-year-old girl with synaesthesia explaining how she experiences the world. For example, describing how when she plays saxophone, she sees colours (the type of which depend on the notes, tone etc) and shapes:



> Eliza Watt: One of my favourite things about playing the saxophone is seeing the colours, and that's one of the times that I do pay quite a lot of attention to them. And they come from the back of my head and shoot off really fast to a point in the distance. Probably three metres away from me. Sometimes it'll be a bit late, like I'll play a note that's green, and then green will come a few seconds later. Or sometimes it'll be right on the dot and it'll happen straight away.
> 
> Lynne Malcolm: Do emotions affect the colours that you're seeing and the music you're playing?
> 
> Eliza Watt: Yeah, how I'm feeling definitely affects what sort of pieces I play, which affects what colours there are. But I don't think my emotions have a very big impact on my colours.
> 
> Lynne Malcolm: What colour does the saxophone connote to you?
> 
> Eliza Watt: Overall it's a yellow instrument, but the noises are often quite blue--dark blue and green. When I play it it's more yellowy-greenish. Sometimes a bit of pink because I like to play in the higher octaves. And that's quite a high colour for me.


There's also lots of this all across her life. The podcast is downloadable from here:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionationa...ia:-seeing-sounds-and-hearing-colours/9836826

Anyone here with any sort of synaesthesia they're aware of?

The other thing, of course, is that listening to something like this, showing someone experiencing the world very differently to us, is good practice for working with horses - because it helps us be extra aware of their differences in perception. And this brings me back to that old bugbear of those "perfect trail horse" thread ideas - in something like that, I once argued that the horse and I combined could listen to each other and each of us could contribute our respective strengths to the team we are, which would make both of us better than either of us alone. That a horse had many times got me out of a scrape in a ride because it had _not_ followed my incorrect instructions. Of course, the mainstream argument, and the "sticky" thread on it, basically posits that the human and their judgement is superior in every way and that the horse needs to completely submit to all the human's wishes, which you all know is BS. I sometimes think that people making this stuff up don't just not understand animals and biology and perception very well, but that they mostly plod through the landscape on submissive horses, rather than work goey, intelligent, expressive horses at all sorts of speeds and in all sorts of situations, as most of us here do. :charge:

And because I can't resist...



gottatrot said:


> @Knave, it can be hard to stand on a very big/wide horse.


Especially if you have short legs! ;-)


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## knightrider

> For example, describing how when she plays saxophone, she sees colours (the type of which depend on the notes, tone etc) and shapes:


I loved this because when my daughter was little, we used to play a game while riding horses. My daughter really didn't love riding horses, but she loved spending time with me, so I tried to make that time more interesting for her. One of the games we used to play on horseback was making up music for the other one to guess what color it was. This was a game that she invented, and we liked it quite a lot.


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## DanteDressageNerd

gottatrot said:


> When "seat" is mentioned, I want to understand exactly what is meant, and what the horse is really experiencing versus our woo woo romanticized ideas about it. Even science fails us with dearly held beliefs, that are spread even when it can be observed by even non-scientists that the "facts" are not true, which makes me understand that widely spread, non-scientific ideas about horses can be even more off track.
> An example of this is from visiting a limestone cave, where we were told stalagmites form extremely slowly, a few cm of growth taking 1,000 years. Yet next to the sign explaining this, we observed a drip that had formed a fairly large stalagmite on top of the asphalt path in the cave, that was obviously not laid down 1,000 years ago. So why were they still explaining these facts when there was obvious evidence that those facts were wrong? It's almost like if something is spread around, there is no way to say it is incorrect. I think we find this in the horse world very often. Something is "off" in the data.
> 
> What are we really doing with our seat, and what is meant by it? I know what the popular ideas are about it. However, what is really happening? Doing things with our seat is usually doing things with the legs that are attached below it. It also is usually doing things with the torso and the center of gravity that is balanced above it.
> Like what is really happening in this picture? Is the rider driving the horse forward with their seat bones? Or...is leaning back opening the hip joints and creating more squeeze with the thighs and/or calf? Or is putting the weight back on the horse taking weight off the forehand, meaning less inhibition to the drive from the hind which the rider interprets as a response to the driving seat bones?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do the seat bones that connect to a saddle tree really influence a horse, or does the rider's weight and legs and upper body balance influence the horse? Perhaps to some it does not matter. However, if you are thinking about why a horse might balance more easily with a rider standing in the stirrups or in two point, it could matter.


I think most of us revert to survivalist techniques when something happens very suddenly like a spook, hard stop, spin, buck, rear, etc. I think depending on the individual's conformation and experience of how we've conditioned and trained our muscle memory and coordination is a factor as well. I think part of why I can stick through those sort of things bareback is because I rely primarily on my seat and do not over stiffen but accept and move with it, rather than grow tense or nervous. I hold my position over my center. I also try to play a game of how deep and with the horse can my seat be while still being as light as possible over the horse's backs. Watch riders learning how to have a deep seat and they often sit to still in the pelvis and back with people saying oh what beautiful equitation while Im looking at the horse thinking, her stillness is locking out the horse's back and preventing the back from coming up into the rider's pelvis and hindering the movement. Equitation is about form to function imo, not what "looks" aesthetically pleasing. Or I'll hear people criticize riders for moving too much in the seat sitting trot and Im like they're MOVING with the horse's back and on a bouncy horse. You wont sit still with a lot of back movement, nor do you want to. You WANT a rider who moves with the horse's back, not a stiff one who locks the back but sits how the ignorant think they should sit. Conformation of the rider ALSO needs to be a consideration for how they sit trot and what is correct equitation and balance over the horse. It depends. Male riders tend to ride differently than female riders. Wonder for example, I think is more of a male rider type of ride because he is SO SO insanely strong and it takes a lot to back him off the contact and carry himself. 

I also think my concept of what is an independent seat, has evolved a lot and I can Wonder has taught me a lot on how to have an independent seat and position. Wonder will try to move the rider's seat and position crooked, so he can take over steering and balance, as well as rhythm. Like on Wonder I have to REALLY hold my position while at the same time being supple and I CANNOT let him take over my position or I have no steering, brakes or control over rhythm. He is so strong, he overpowers my seat. I actually almost threw up riding him on Friday from holding my position and seat so strongly against him in the canter because he was so strong. When I describe that. I am not saying he was strong in the bridle but strong in his body and momentum generated from his hind end which does make him stronger in the bridle than most can ride. It's a lot of backing him off the bridle and carrying himself which is achieved in moments, not all the time. But it took me 20min or so to stop feeling nauseous. I've never had to hold my core that strong on anything but Wonder.

I think "seat" is a highly abstract concept and depend on what your goal and experience is. I think my education on what "Seat" is has changed a lot over the years, similar with what contact, collection or "good" hands means. 

For instance when I was a low level dressage rider, I thought connection and contact were the same thing. Connection meaning base line elastic connection between the rider's hands and the horse's mouth or what I call "neutral" or "baseline" contact now. As I grew older, I find contact to mean something different. In connection I feel it is not set, the way contact is. For instance when I ride Wonder I often push him into a closed hand (note my base contact is held between my index finger and thumb, my other fingers continuously tense or soften depending on what Im trying to do) to establish "collection" and this isnt just dont with a closed hand of leg to hand but a million different little subtle details between softening and tensing of muscles and feeling that I cannot describe. Wonder is the only horse I have ever ridden where I literally have to feel EVERY foot fall in the trot and time it and set it or he is unable to keep rhythm and move through his back or body in the trot. If I let him go hollow and didnt care if he worked over his back, he can but he will move funny vs moving over his back I am literally re training his body how to use itself from what is natural. Wonder is a dressage horse, so what I am aiming to do and how I understand concepts is different from if I had a different goal. I also do not think natural is necessarily "best." Riding horses is inherently "unnatural" but it doesnt mean it's wrong, if that makes sense. This isnt a paper or essay, so I wont go into proofs. Just outlined thoughts to think and reflect on.

For ex I've heard a lot of weird comments from low level riders on upper level riders, criticizing and saying how that upper level should ride. And I read completely amazed by people not at all understanding the situation or what they're looking at but having absolutely confidence and conviction that they know best and better than the person sat on the horse. It just blows my mind how very confident the especially ignorant are. When they see a complicated situation with a skillful rider, they assume things that arent so and are very critical of a situation they themselves couldnt handle and have no idea what they're seeing. For example say Hero when he was rearing, some people assume it's pain or you're over pressuring him or whatever vs realizing Hero has trauma in his past and you're addressing an issue head on that wont be "sorted out" in a day or week or month but over a long period of time building trust and confidence between you two and the "rear" may never go away. I think a problem comes in when people who've only really worked with a certain set of horses who think a horse is a mindless machine that can be made into whatever a person wants, without respect or understanding towards a willful, intelligent and mindful horse with a WILL and MIND of it's own. Horse's are not machine like people like to think, we can't just insert the right code and they'll behave how we want every time. Horses are more complicated and more emotional and discovering what fits each horse in each situation is key. Not having one system or formula for every horse. We need to be flexible and what fits our goals and the horse's we're working with not what the books say or what tradition says. But what suits the individual.

Point being what key words mean change over time based on our understanding of the concept and our experiences. For example when I say a horse is hot, for most people they have a very different idea of hot than say gotta or myself. To me hot can mean a variety of things but I find most people call a horse hot when it is more horse than they are able to handle or ride. Where as when you or I sit on it, we may not find the horse hot at all but then we sit on say a Wonder and go oh yeah that is hot. But if you look at say Ranja vs Wonder very different type of hot. Ranja is more the typical over reactive, sensitive, spooky, nervous hot (she's gotten more confident and less spooky, nervous) vs Wonder is over confident, more like a steam engine with a lot of power and determination to go hot. And what makes a horse "difficult" is not determined by how "hot" they are. Hot doesnt mean difficult, hot describes the nature and energy of the horse. Not created by the rider. As I've seen quite a few riders make non-hot horses very hot from having a hot temperament or hot seat that creates an over reaction in more sensitive horses who dont tune that out. So A lot of riders confuse their own over vibrational energy making the horse hot for a horse that is hot.

Sorry if too convoluted. I have a hard time isolating and narrowing down abstract idea/concepts. I try to be thorough.


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## knightrider

> It just blows my mind how very confident the especially ignorant are. When they see a complicated situation with a skillful rider, they assume things that arent so and are very critical of a situation they themselves couldnt handle and have no idea what they're seeing. For example say Hero when he was rearing, some people assume it's pain or you're over pressuring him or whatever vs realizing Hero has trauma in his past and you're addressing an issue head on that wont be "sorted out" in a day or week or month but over a long period of time building trust and confidence between you two and the "rear" may never go away. I think a problem comes in when people who've only really worked with a certain set of horses who think a horse is a mindless machine that can be made into whatever a person wants, without respect or understanding towards a willful, intelligent and mindful horse with a WILL and MIND of it's own. Horse's are not machine like people like to think, we can't just insert the right code and they'll behave how we want every time. Horses are more complicated and more emotional and discovering what fits each horse in each situation is key. Not having one system or formula for every horse. We need to be flexible and what fits our goals and the horse's we're working with not what the books say or what tradition says. But what suits the individual.


Love this! So true and well put!


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## SueC

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Sorry if too convoluted. I have a hard time isolating and narrowing down abstract idea/concepts. I try to be thorough.


Very thorough and an excellent post I much enjoyed reading!


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## bsms

DanteDressageNerd said:


> ...I think part of why I can stick through those sort of things bareback is because I rely primarily on my seat and do not over stiffen but accept and move with it, rather than grow tense or nervous. I hold my position over my center. I also try to play a game of how deep and with the horse can my seat be while still being as light as possible over the horse's backs...
> 
> ...I think "seat" is a highly abstract concept and depend on what your goal and experience is. I think my education on what "Seat" is has changed a lot over the years, similar with what contact, collection or "good" hands means...


I'm a low level rider and always will be. If nothing else, the stiffness of my back - which isn't going to improve a great deal in my 60s - limits my ability to both sit deep AND sit light.

Fundamental to my belief is something Littauer taught. He pointed out many of his students had never been on a horse and his primary interest was teaching new riders to ride well, not expert riders to ride better. He argued many excellent riders do things a typical recreational rider doesn't have the body to do, or the tact and understanding of the horse, so his goal was a system of riding that worked well for beginners and those who rode a few hours a week versus 8 hours a day.

It goes back to what maura told me years ago, about preferring to see someone use the stirrups to save the horse's back than to sit heavy because they don't have the experience of feel to sit light. And yes, I truly believe good riders can sit deep and very light. But, as I admitted, I'll never be a "good rider" in a technical sense. But I've found I can have a happy horse and stay on in spooks by using my legs and stirrups - as maura & Littauer (who she recommended I read) said.

Caprilli was also interested in teaching beginners. Italian army recruits often had never been on a horse before and I think they served 2 year terms. He needed a way for new riders to quickly learn how to help their horse cross rough terrain. In most cases, the horse (who would be there for decades) knew more than the rider. Thus the rider's job was to interfere as little as possible so the experienced horse could take care of the job.

What I think I am finding with Mia to a certain extent and realizing more with Bandit is that "more freedom/less control" and emphasizing getting out of Bandit's way is an alternative approach to good riding. That less interference breeds more cooperation, at least for those of us who will never be more than beginner riders! That many of the problems I've seen were rooted in my getting in the way of my partner, who then struggled. This created resistance in him.



> "I believe everyone needs to learn the fundamental ideas of what I believe in terms of principles of military riding because I am convinced that the rider who is natural in terms of position and balance serves the horse well, and that such a horse easily adapts to being submissive to the will of the human....
> 
> ...Also, let us remember that when a horse is resisting difficulties it is agitated and as a result it often attempts to evade, falls, or defend itself. If evading, horse almost always attempts to evade in anticipation of pain remembered. The horse will always try to escape pain brought on by the actions of the rider or by fear of the rider. This real pain, anticipated or remembered pain, very often causes the horse to react, or while submitting, causes it not to use its energy and balance in a natural way making efforts that are unnecessary and harmful."
> 
> From Dan Gilmore's translation found here: Federico Caprilli, Per L'Equitazione Di Campagna - On Cross Country Riding


From a teaching perspective, I think MOST new riders would benefit from an approach emphasizing trusting the horse and getting out of the horse's way. If the rider then wanted to become a truly good rider, then their approach would still be colored by thinking of the horse as someone to work with rather than someone to impose their will upon. I've seen dressage videos where the rider rode with understanding and some where the rider seemed like a domineering jerk. *And I've seen both in trail riders, too!*

One thing I've been told in these arguments on HF is that two point is hard, that using the stirrups is bad, and that two point with stirrups makes you unstable. What I find is the natural tension in my leg - less than when I stand, but there - helps when my horse spooks. And that two point is quite easy to learn, particularly with a western saddle horn to help in the transition.

In Littauer's "The Development of Modern Riding"'s later chapters, worth buying IMHO ( https://www.amazon.com/Development-...+of+modern+riding&qid=1572192989&sr=8-1-fkmr0 ), he critiques the movement away from forward riding:



> It must be quite obvious from what I have said that I personally admire an inconspicuous control of the horse; however, because it is undramatic, it leaves many people cold. And there is another factor: while many people today like to ride on the basis of a partnership with the horse, just as many love to dominate the animal and to feel that he is merely an animated instrument in their hands. This category of rider will always prefer a method based on pushing and pulling, which gives the sensation of dominion. When talented riders take this road the results may not be too bad, but when every Tom, **** and Harry attempts it, the level of average riding goes downhill, and upset and unhappy horses become a common sight....
> 
> In comparison with the French books the German texts are often quite naive in their earnestness and are pretentiously ponderous. Since they attempt to be pedantically exhaustive, they are apt to be overcrowded with details. Many of the latter, even of the simplest kind, are often described in a complicated scholastic manner which should be reserved only for those instances when there is no other way of presenting some abstruse point. Because of this the average reader soon ceases to see the woods for the trees. These turbid tomes illustrate the saying of Ruskin which Piero Santini so aptly quoted at the beginning of his own refreshingly lucid book, *"It is far more difficult to be simple than to be complicated."*...
> 
> Seunig also fails to recognize the fact that the Forward Seat and the Dressage Seat (he calls the latter the Normal Seat) have little in common, because the balance of the first is primarily based in the stirrups and that of the latter in the saddle. Obviously not realizing this, he believes that the "forward seat is developed organically from the normal seat." He also believes that it is impossible to maintain the Forward Seat "by balance alone" which is precisely what beginners learning the Forward Seat are required to do by many American riding teachers. The Germans, who have apparently never discovered how easy this is when properly taught, make a strong point of the fixed knee, and teach that the rider should raise himself above the saddle not from the stirrups but "from the knees."
> 
> Although I know a few excellent riders who ride with pinched knees, such a seat used by the majority would be quite disastrous, both from the point of view of security and that of softness.


My interest is in how a perpetually low level rider can ride with a contented horse. What serious riders do is well beyond me, and what great riders do is totally their business. My frustration isn't that many have no interest in using two point or a half-seat for a canter, but that many think it is very difficult. I can do it, though, and anything I do with horses cannot be hard. Unfortunately, I also think it is often badly taught, and the bad teaching creates the difficulty. Thus we end up with beginning riders rejecting an aid (stirrups) that can help them create a happy partner, even when they only ride an hour a week.


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## Knave

I was thinking of this post the day before yesterday, when I was hunting on Cash. Cash is very good in the mountains. Also, for being the style he is, he is very sensitive to any differences or changes. I don't know if it is his youth or if it is his personality, but he tends towards seriousness in being and this sensitivity. He is a lover too, so it pans out. Anyways, we were riding and it was very steep and rocky, often without trails. He was very good all morning while we climbed. When it was time to come downhill though he started getting upset. Part of this was because he lacks much wither and the saddle had slipped forward an inch, and another part of it was that two does had bedded down in some brush and they bothered him. However, after these things were accounted for he maintained his edge.


At one point he seemed so upset that he was considering bucking me off. I began to think further about what was bothering him. After all, no one wants to get in a wreck on a steep mountainside peppered with rocks! I thought about this post for whatever reason. I had written that Cash would not appreciate me standing in my stirrups. I knew this from some other instances, but in going down such a steep area I was putting my weight into my stirrups to balance well. I realized that making that change was what was so upsetting to him. I couldn't balance well without the weight change, because that actually is the balance change. Yet, when I ride I put my weight into my stirrups and my seat for a slow down or stop cue. Maybe this is where his confusion and nervousness came from. I realize I need to occasionally ride in a 'half-seat" manner to desensitize him to this feeling.


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## bsms

Just did a short ride on Bandit...not much time before church, but I wanted to get a half hour in. Half with riding, half with grazing. Anyways, I got worried my post might sound like I was telling @DanteDressageNerd how to ride, which would be really stupid of me! If you are ever in Arizona and want to ride a mellow horse in the desert, DanteDressageNerd, you'll be welcome to give ME tips. And I'll listen!

I also don't want to tell anyone they NEED to use two point, or to stand in stirrups. Just about everyone who reads this thread has far more experience than I do, and it IS truly possible to ride deep AND ride light. That I find it difficult is part age, part nagging injuries, part lack of instruction and part lack of saddle time. But it helped me SO MUCH when I was struggling so hard with Mia, and Bandit had no problems with me standing in the stirrups by balance today. Very easy.

I have a new thing that lets me drop the reins without them interfering with him and lets me get them back again, so I even tried a few brief moments of no rein riding - and he's relaxed enough that I'm not sure he noticed. Standing in stirrups is ONE way of approaching the riding problem. But everyone here has more experience than me, so I'm testifying that a low level rider can do it easily. That is all I can say. If I can do it, it cannot be hard. Or insecure, since my approach to riding means the horse gets to do a lot on his own initiative and it is my job to stay on.


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## DanteDressageNerd

bsms- no worries ;-) Im happy to ride chill and with a slack rein. I do sometimes with Wonder which is quite stupid of me but hey we're happy. Im generally not the type to gripe at people or criticize everything they do, I'll offer pointers if asked but I try to mind my own, unless asked or if I see something dangerous that requires intervention (general). I think it's respectful. I also listen when people explain their reasoning for doing something, not just well my way is superior because x, y, z. I tend to be well maybe that is what works for them and ask myself is my way better? Im actually pretty easy going :lol: eccentric but laid back (most of the time).

I agree sometimes having less control and more cooperation is a better approach than more control and being met with resistance. I think sometimes we have to work through resistance and other times back away and it is up to the individual pair and situation to decide that. I've seen it need to be addressed and people not address it and people address imaginary issues in ways I felt were unfair and unrelated to the issue.

I've been rough with horses as well, I think we all have regardless of discipline. I dont know if it's always the "right" thing to do but sometimes it feels necessary. However I think a problem with that is knowing when to approach a problem head on and have that disagreement and "fight" and when to back off and choose the back door approach. I also think the answer depends on the rider's experience and what they want. Things I consider an issue may not be for someone who expects less or something different. I think it is the individual's call and their choice to make and live with the consequences of that choice.

For low level riders there is NOTHING wrong with that and when I say that, I dont mean to sound condescending because I dont mean it that way. I think a lot of horses and riders are completely happy and living good lives without the pressure. Not all show horses are happy horses, not all upper level horses are happy horses, not all low level horses are happy horses and in general I think we want happy horses :lol:

I dont have a problem with two point, I think it makes sense. Jumpers and eventers often ride in two point. I dont find two point "hard" but for what I do, I mostly "sit." I also have a busted right knee from the military, so two point in jumper stirrups I cannot do anymore. I think it has it's place. Even a lot of dressage riders post when warming up or not schooling harder things. I think it is to create more freedom and get off the horse's back. I think sitting on the back all the time tends to hollow the back out int he trot. Some horses need a rider to two point a bit while they warm up. Warm up can be really complicated for some horses. And honestly watch the GP horses in the warm up, they really do move like chickens. Most are not flashy or that fancy but you see them gathered up and go woah. 

Catherine Dufour who just won the World Cup in Herning rides her horses in two point sometimes and plays over jumps. I've seen a few riders of that caliber ride in two point at times. I liked when they used to allow spectators into the warm up, now they dont because people were taking videos and posting such rude, nasty comments because the horses were warming up and not perfect. That is what irritates me, the lack of respect. It's okay to ask questions and say did they do that and is that right but to be rude, I dont understand.

I also think in two point the leg needs to be more towards the girth than behind. But I think it is hard to say how to teach new riders. I think they should learn to respect the horse but I think they need to learn basic aiding systems and how to do basic things. It is a special horse who can do lesson programs. I think people are often taught the horse is a machine and everything a horse does is their fault and Im all for responsibility but not for teaching people the horse is a machine but I agree people need to learn how to have a conversation with the horse and how to appreciate being on a horse. I think people tend to learn on horses who are so used to conflicting information that they tune out and when people go to learn, they need to have strong aids and "demand" to get a reaction. So I dont know what is best or how to design a program to really make a difference for both riders and horses. On the whole, I think people are becoming more appreciative and understanding of the horse.

However I have noticed quite a few people in horses who really thrive and want that control at all times and arent interested in the conversation. They like having a horse just do as it is told and I find people who do that with the horse are the same with people and do not respect different opinions or ideas. Some people like going by accepting what they believe or have been told without asking questions. And some like overpowering and dominating an animal and having the illusion of control. I've worked for a very controlling rider at one point. She was the same with horses and with people, very difficult to work for. Not a nice person to put it simply and equally disrespectful because she did not respect free will or the individual's right to make choices. She'd rather put them in a box than give them a choice.

I actually rode a horse for 18mo named Sporty who was a very special cookie. Sporty was from the UK, he had schooled advanced level eventing and had been in training with some to the Uk greats of eventing and show jumping. Sporty a rider could either sit or two point. I always warmed him up in two point and first few canters were always ridden in two point and he'd buck into them. He HATED posting trot, he would weave his head from my right knee to my left if I posted (he had always been like that). I got the ride on him because my trainer felt bad that I didnt have a horse, so Sporty was retired in a field 5yrs and she said if you pay to maintain and care for him you can ride him. That horse taught me a LOT. I am shocked I never fell off of him, he spooked like a cat. Brain like a cat, was not a normal horse. Harder than Wonder. Easier to sit on but some days just no steering, breaks but no steering. He was a bad spooker and not one you could reason with. He'd find a rock he didnt like or an invisible something and be gone. He was the most special minded horse Ive ever met and very clever. He wasnt quite as tall as Wonder but a big horse 16.2-3h? Dutch warmblood x irish sport horse x thoroughbred. SO roughly 50% tb or so. I think Sporty is 23 now, he was born in 1996.

Now I need to get back to studying :lol:


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Yet next to the sign explaining this, we observed a drip that had formed a fairly large stalagmite on top of the asphalt path in the cave, that was obviously not laid down 1,000 years ago. So why were they still explaining these facts when there was obvious evidence that those facts were wrong?



Sorry but this brought out the ex-science teacher in me. They say, you can take a teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the teacher out of the teacher. Or something like that.


So anyhow, @gottatrot, did you consider the possibility that the asphalt path was laid down after the stalagmite formed, leaving the stalagmite in place rather than damaging it?


I would speculate that that the suspended particles in the water would precipitate out in an undisturbed pool much more quickly than while traveling down a vertical surface.


And so I would further speculate that the pooling of water at the bottom of the 1,000 year old stalagmite formed a deposit that made it appear to the cursory observer that the stalagmite had formed since the formation of the asphalt pathway.


That said, the contradictory points about the horse are well taken.


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## gottatrot

So sorry to be "hit and run" here on the forum right now. My internet went down after my last post, so I was unable to see what interesting responses there were until now. I have limited access at the moment.

Great responses all. @Hondo, it was actually fairly easy to see from the side view that the stalagmite had a base on top of the asphalt, that widened out and separated. From the side you could see the thickness of the asphalt and then where the stalagmite began. It brought up the question in my mind that there could be some other factors that are unstudied/unknown that causes them to form quite quickly at times.
@DanteDressageNerd, you have great points as always. 
There is something I think I have observed about your riding, which I may be wrong and feel free to tell me so if that is the case. 

Something I think I see with good dressage riders, is that they also do not ride on their seat alone, anymore than eventers do. Something I learned when riding bareback, and then learning to use my lower leg, and then going back to bareback, is that you also can ride with the lower leg by using muscle "tension" (and I don't mean being tense) without stirrups. 

So when I watch you riding bareback, I don't see you sitting down on your seat, but rather your weight is going down your leg and taking some of that off the horse's back. Evidence of this is that your feet are not moving up and down at the trot. 
If a person is truly sitting with their weight on the saddle (like a chair), that is far different from someone riding with their weight in the stirrups or else down their leg. 

Where this makes a huge difference is in transitions, which if you are sitting on the horse's back and things get rough, you will come down on the horse. If you are off the horse's back to some degree, you will catch yourself with all the leg muscles that allow you to raise off the horse's back. 

I agree that I think of contact and connection as different too.

I want to say that I find it both true that a person needs to let go and give the horse more freedom, and I also find it true that you may need to keep contact and ride the horse every step. I've often found it true as @bsms describes, that if you give the horse more freedom, the horse will relax and calm more easily. However, I've not found in every case that I could just give the horse freedom and this will be the case.
Let's say 95% of the time Hero is a bit anxious and I give him a loose rein or lead and he calms down. That is true. Then, like the other day, he got very nervous when we were riding in the dune grass at sunset, and he hadn't been up there before. When I gave him more rein, he got more nervous, and wanted to bolt off bucking, so I had to keep contact with him and keep telling him things were fine. Often with Halla or Amore this was the case also, although most of the time loose rein and freedom meant more calmness. 

Also, there is that always difficult to measure balance of when giving a horse freedom is wonderful, and when it is making you unsafe. 
I've been noticing lately that Hero is claustrophobic (as are most horses, right?). He is much more calm when I give him a longer lead line when I am leading him, and has been doing extremely well with calming himself and not fussing at me like a stud on the racetrack harassing his pony horse.
That being said, we had an incident a couple of days ago where I was leading Hero and Amore. Trying to trust him more, and he really has earned a lot of trust, I had given him a bit of line. Well, the dog came roaring out from under the water and through the bushes unexpectedly, and Hero whirled and kicked out as he went, giving me a nice tattoo in the right upper butt. 

They do say the "3 second rule," and often I believe in it. I also believe in not punishing a spook. However, in this case, Hero after he kicked me backed off and was standing with his eyes wide, and I saw that he knew exactly what had happened, and it was still in his mind. So even after the quite-a-few-seconds while I stood trying to breathe the pain away, I still grabbed the middle, soft part of his nostrils and squeezed it while I glared him in the eye and told him that even if a tiger had his jaws around his hamstring, he still wasn't allowed to kick me on the way by. 

So. He was in trouble, and I'll be fine, and although I love horses and think they are amazing creatures, I don't really romanticize our relationships. He walked like a lamb for the rest of our walk, and when something scared him he actually looked at me, then startled, but did not over react. That's all I'm asking, and I know it is possible since Amore bucked me off until I wondered if she'd kill me, until that one final time that was the last time and after that she learned to manage her reactions more and more until they were much safer for everyone. Did I punish Amore? Not ever. But she panicked and could not think. Hero is there, I can see his brain working the whole time. So I am asking a bit more of him.


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## gottatrot

*posted in error


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## gottatrot

I found this video that illustrates the idea of riding with your weight properly down the leg regardless of whether you have stirrups or not. To me this is the essence of a secure seat. If people ride bareback or stirrupless like this, then their seat will be even more secure when they get their stirrups back. But they still have a secure seat from their lower leg regardless. Most people practice sitting all their weight down on their bottom instead, when they are stirrupless or bareback. That does not help your seat. 
It is slightly more difficult to two point and post without stirrups, but since it still can be done fairly easily with the right balance and weight down the leg, you can imagine it is even easier when you add stirrups. If the lower leg is weighted right, it is still. Even without stirrups.






Here are riders practicing without stirrups who haven't been taught how to keep their weight down their legs. All this is doing is wearing them out.


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## bsms

I'm a confirmed stirrup-user. When I practice no stirrups, I look more like the second video because I grip with the knee trying to avoid impacting my horse's back. Oddly enough, if I lose a stirrup, I am more like the top video. It isn't something I practice often, though. If my horse moves off before I got a foot in the far stirrup, I'm a one stirrup guy. I've never actually lost my stirrups while riding.

Maybe that is because I use the home position and don't worry about heels down?


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## gottatrot

Yesterday Hero and I got in trouble.

Went for a ride down to the beach a little before sunset. Hero was very good, and when we got to the top of the dune he acted like he wanted to go along the top instead of going down the hill to the beach. Looking down there, I saw fires and lots of cars driving around, so decided he might have a good idea. I let him make the choice, and we turned to walk along the top of the dunes in the grass.

It is about a mile to the next beach access, and after we'd gone most of the way there, Hero started trying to veer inland. After a while, I stopped steering him back the other way, and just let him go where he wanted. We gradually went across the dune grass, and soon were only a couple hundred feet away from some of the houses built along the beach. 
A man came out on his porch and started yelling at us, "This is private property! You can't ride your horse here!!" Man, I thought he was going to have a coronary. 

Well, I wasn't riding on Halla, so we walked very slowly toward the road, off the man's property. It seemed like he wanted us to gallop off of it, but Hero wasn't going to do that, so we crept away. 

Across the road, we went over to the mowed area of the dunes, where my friend rides Cass and Brave and says no one has ever told her not to. I trotted Hero around in some big circles, until it started getting a bit dark, at which point we went back to the beach access. 
There were a lot of cars driving in a line, and Hero was a bit nervous. 

Back on the beach, there were a lot of cars driving and it was getting dark, so we stayed up in the deep sand. Unfortunately, there were a lot of big bonfires with music and people, which also made Hero a little nervous. He did fine, with some minor spooking. 
I took him up the dune a little before our usual spot, and then it was strange, he stopped and didn't want to keep going toward home. It was either the smoke from the fires coming up in front of us, or else the wind in our faces, I'm not sure. 

We sat there a while, and thought. Suddenly, he decided it would be better to take off fast, and I had to circle him to keep him down to a trot. The footing and lighting were not good for cantering at all. Eventually I got him settled and he went home calmly.

I've taken him out in an 0 ring snaffle for several rides, but he really doesn't like it. The mouthpiece is a myler, with no breaks, but so far the only bit he seems to like is the Kimberwicke, and I suspect that is because he has an overbite. Somehow bits that rely on regular tongue and bar pressure do not work for him. I suspect they make his jaw uncomfortable. The first ride I thought it was fine, but that was because I never really used it, only needing a loose rein. The last two rides when I've needed to use the reins some, Hero has been bothered by it. He didn't like snaffles when he was very green, but I wondered if he would do better now that he has had more training. But I think it is a physical issue with him.


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## Knave

I’m sorry! I hate getting in trouble, and the ride itself sounded a bit nerve wracking.


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## gottatrot

The population seems to be increasing, and people are getting more out of touch with animals and nature. We are working toward moving to a less populated area soon. Meanwhile, nearby on the coast, they are wanting to make horses wear manure bags on the beach. What really is going on is that some wealthy people who don't think their own poop stinks are offended by the aesthetics of the occasional horse manure on the beach. 
This is in an area where we have many hundreds of elk roaming everywhere, and pooping on the streets and in people's yards. Perhaps they will want to diaper the elk soon as well. 
It is very sad to me since I grew up here, and when I was a kid the beaches were truly wild, uncrowded and unspoiled. I can imagine that some day they will want to stop letting dogs on some of the beaches, while meanwhile allowing all kinds of vehicles and human garbage, including needles that I saw recently and had never seen before. I love the beach, but if people ruin it I will have to move to where there are less people. People ruin everything. *rant over

https://www.kptv.com/news/yay-or-neigh-cannon-beach-to-vote-on-horses-wearing/article_2e363ff6-0038-11ea-af7d-0797803c341c.html

Hero and I had a great ride yesterday. We went on the beach, and yes, he did poop on it once. Considering all the other plant based matter that was also sitting on the beach and waiting to wash away in the next tide, it didn't bother me. 

He gave me some lovely cantering and trotting, and we went about three miles. 
My new strategy, now that Nala is not going out with us, is to work on calmness and positivity all the time. Today that was at least 95% of the time. 
There was a problem with a big black dog, and the shining sun. 
This kind of situation has given me problems before with horses, so I was at least aware of what the issue was.








If a horse looks into that shine, they don't seem to be able to interpret well what black blobs moving around in there are, and whether they are coming, going, or what. Hero startled and hopped about five times when the dog was running here and there, even though he was far away and only focusing on his owner.

Other than that, he was great, and I was using the Kimberwicke so he was very soft and listened well.
Once we were off the beach, there was a chain saw that was whining just out of our sight. Hero started getting less calm, not really ramped up, but I wanted to keep him very calm, so I hopped off to see if he would graze and be calm. He got a little more anxious, and then did a big spook. 
Not everyone would agree with my methods, and maybe not that long ago I wouldn't have agreed with my methods. But with Hero, since I've been getting after him when he spooks, it is at the very least causing him to keep his eyes on me and run back after he spooks rather than spinning away from me. Keeping that focus on me, even if it is negative, is saving my hide right now. 

Following my reprimand for the big reaction, as we walked forward, he had two more spooks, but on both occasions he did the hugest startles, his whole body shaking as he jumped in place, _but_ he didn't leap, bolt forward or spin. I was so excited, I praised him hugely. I know it is going to be a little difficult for him to figure out, but he needs to understand that it's not getting scared that is the problem (obviously you can't prevent that), but the wrong type of reaction. I've never seen him spook in place before, so the fact that he could manage it immediately after feeling frightened meant to me that there is a lot of hope for having him learn to startle without disabling his handler in the process.

After that, he did one more big reaction, and I gave him negative feedback. Hopefully he is experimenting to see what it is that makes me upset about his reactions, and what it is I am happy with. After that last big spook and my lecture, I got on him and he walked calmly all the way home. 

Hero is now letting me use stiffer brushes on him, trusting that I won't use them too hard. He doesn't even warn me to be gentle anymore. Same with cinching up, he is trusting I will do it nicely and not feeling that he has to warn me.


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## Knave

People suck. I have no more than that to think about your story. Actually, I do think less populated areas have more “unsucky” people. Anywhere people are more in tune with nature they seem a bit more logical and less destructive.

I smacked Cash for spooking yesterday too. He was a bit up because of having a couple days off and his panties twisted because I rode Zeus. He was spooking over everything though, and when I stepped off to get a gate he spooked towards me and I smacked him. I think he was like, “Well that was rude.” Lol


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## bsms

My opinion on spooking includes: "_We do not bolt, buck or spin..._" So if he warns me he is having a problem, I'll try to take care of it. To include dismounting, maybe. If he startles and jolts, stops, or takes a hop sideways - fair enough. If Bandit spins or tries to run away or crow-hops...I act [word that starts with p and includes the letters i and s and ends in ed but that HF doesn't like]. Sometimes I am, but I'll act a bit [same word] even if I'm not and get after him.

I believe in mutually acceptable compromise. Mutually means we BOTH have options not acceptable to the other, and we BOTH are allowed to make it clear doing "X" was outside of our boundaries. But if you don't set any boundaries, the horse has no reason to look for a mutually acceptable compromise.

The boundaries are open to adjusting with time. When Bandit was regularly spinning 180 and trying to run, it was OK for him to spin 90 degrees and take one hop. Now I expect more of him because he is capable of better self-control.

Trooper and Cowboy don't seem to have ever been big reaction type horses. Trooper certainly wasn't. Mia was extremely reactive. She got better but could still spin violently as a startle reaction. Don't know what would have happened if I kept her. I'd like to think we'd be down to 90 degrees or less by now - but she had a high signal-to-noise ratio, so to speak. Bandit is in between. He will ALWAYS be more reactive to a stress than Trooper or Cowboy, though. It is who he is.

BTW - my wife and I are hoping to travel to Utah this winter to see if we are willing to take more cold in exchange for fewer people. Our search area is tentatively from Richfield Ut to Price. Price Utah has cheaper prices. It also has uglier country in the immediate local area, but is right next to the mountains I fell in love with 40 years ago. It would make the Moab area an easy drive-hike-return-in-a-day area, although Moab has grown hideously.

I don't like cold and snow, but my wife & I are thinking we like tons of city people even less!

With a trailer, we could easily take the horses out here (40 miles from Price):
















Or simply GO there and hike. My wife is from the Philippines, but she loves the red rock country - has since I first took her there 30 years ago.


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## SueC

I got vertigo when I saw where the tripods were set up in that first clip, @bsms! :rofl: Spectacular country, and very brutal too in a way because so arid. A lot of central Australia is like that too.



gottatrot said:


> The population seems to be increasing, and people are getting more out of touch with animals and nature. We are working toward moving to a less populated area soon. Meanwhile, nearby on the coast, they are wanting to make horses wear manure bags on the beach. What really is going on is that some wealthy people who don't think their own poop stinks are offended by the aesthetics of the occasional horse manure on the beach.
> This is in an area where we have many hundreds of elk roaming everywhere, and pooping on the streets and in people's yards. Perhaps they will want to diaper the elk soon as well.
> It is very sad to me since I grew up here, and when I was a kid the beaches were truly wild, uncrowded and unspoiled. I can imagine that some day they will want to stop letting dogs on some of the beaches, while meanwhile allowing all kinds of vehicles and human garbage, including needles that I saw recently and had never seen before. I love the beach, but if people ruin it I will have to move to where there are less people. People ruin everything. *rant over


I like a good rant - both to get one out of my system, and to listen to another good rant. 

That is so preposterous, and yet so typical. In the little village I grew up in, in Germany, local dairy farmers weren't allowed to graze their cows in their fields anymore once the village turned into a satellite suburb of Munich and the townies started complaining about the noise, and the droppings left on the main village road if the cows crossed it to get from their barn to their paddocks. The poor cows were entirely barn-bound for their lifetimes after that. There were places in Germany where people objected to the early mooing of cows and crowing of roosters on farms that had new residential subdivisions set up nearby, and local laws were passed to fine farmers whose animals mooed or crowed before 8am. :evil: It was so bad that vets started to perform operations to sever vocal cords on animals to stop their owners from being fined. It was so disgusting. These same people are fed by the farms and they produce serious welfare problems for these animals with their stupid complaining about minor things. Should stay in the concrete jungle and not move to the rural-urban fringe if they don't like it.

There's a new regulation in our town that you will get fined unless you use plastic bags provided to parcel up your dog's poo and drop it in a bin. Now I can understand that people shouldn't let their dogs soil the pavements and cycleways and beach sand, but what's wrong with taking your dog into the bushes if it needs to go? A little training, and a lot of dogs will do that. Our dog has dingo DNA so she's super clean about where she does her Number 2s - never on the beach sand, never on a paved anything, never on open grass - she actually seeks out cover and goes directly _onto_ a bush, so it drops down between the branches of it, or onto a native clump grass. This is very effective for stopping people treading in it or seeing it, and it's great fertiliser. No way am I going to remove that, wrap it in plastic and throw it in a bin, to waste the nutrients in landfill and add to the plastic waste burden of the planet.

Which is exactly what horse diapers do, quite apart from the preposterousness of the very idea of it. We don';t need more plastic waste. And you're right, the worst thing of them all is human beings' rubbish, which is not biodegradable.


:music019:mg: :beatup: :hide: :angrily_smileys: mg::music019:


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## bsms

Glad to hear I'm not the only one frustrated by how disconnected many folks are from the natural environment. "_Perhaps they will want to diaper the elk soon as well._" I'm not sure some people realize elk poop!

I loved the comment by VS Littauer about show jumping creating artificial problems that needed artificial solutions. That describes city life to me. The sheer unreality of city life seems to create man-made problems which then require even more bizarre solutions. The cycle repeats, and each cycle brings additional disconnect.

I've got about 300 acres of easy access desert just a 5 minute walk from my house. I've seen neighborhood kids there once in a great while. I'll see another adult...once every couple of years? In 15 years, I've seen one other guy jogging in the desert. Jogging is much less popular than it once was, maybe because it involves going outside? I've read it is popular, that 60-70 million Americans do it...but I notice it is harder to find jogging shorts in stores or real jogging shoes retail. Maybe they jog on jogging machines. Or maybe they jog virtually! Can one jog on a smart phone while sitting on a couch?

You cannot own a horse without horse poop. In a way, that is part of the beauty of owning a horse. It forces us back to our roots in reality. OMG! Horse poop on a beach! Yeah, and seagulls may poop on your windshield. Deal with it!

My wife and I still like our house alright. We could shut off the unneeded bedrooms and we like the property. But the city is growing ever nearer, and with it comes uncounted people living disconnected lives. It is like a zombie invasion. And our only solution seems to be running away...:evil:

My own picture from the San Rafael overlook:








The daughter of my sheepranching friend had her wedding here. Me? I stay back from the edge. Sorry. I'm a weenie. But at least I'll never fall off while backing up to "take a selfie"! I don't need to see something on my phone to believe it is real.


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> "_Perhaps they will want to diaper the elk soon as well._" I'm not sure some people realize elk poop!


:rofl: I can't stop laughing at this. You're so right. :rofl:


This is a popular place to take horses to ride on the beach if you live in NH/MA/VT: Hampton Beach. Riding is only allowed over the winter. The list of rules is a mile long, and strictly enforced because every time even one person "messes up" (pun intended), it makes it harder and harder to keep horse access open. 



> PSA for Hampton Beach Riders!
> For all the riders who enjoy riding at HAMPTON BEACH!
> (From NH Horse Council)
> Once again we need your help to pass the “clean up” manure rules to your friends and members and equine social media pages.
> Bear Brook, Northwood Meadows, Hampton Beach are recent complaints from equine stewards.
> Hampton Beach and Trail State Rules (abridged).
> Hampton Beach:
> · From Oct.1 thru April 30 equines are permitted at Hampton Beach, from Hampton Beach South (near bridge) to Boar’s Head .
> · Trailer parking is only permitted at the Hampton Beach South parking lot.
> · Clean up and remove offsite any manure on the main paths to the beach and above the high tide mark.
> · Ride below the high tide mark
> · Clean up and remove offsite any waste (manure, hay, bedding) from parking areas and trail heads.
> · (carry a container and manure fork/shovel in your trailer to take waste offsite)
> Trail rules:
> · Disposal of stall waste, hay or manure shall not be permitted on DRED properties.
> · Clean up and remove offsite any waste (manure, hay, bedding) from parking areas and trail heads.
> · (carry a container and manure fork/shovel in your trailer to take waste offsite)
> · Do not leave equines unattended.
> · With reasonable effort remove off and scatter manure at remote scenic overlooks, vistas and picnic areas found on the trail.
> · Clean up and remove offsite site all waste where the public congregates. (Paved sidewalks and walkways, maintained play areas and athletic fields, lawns and fields maintained by regular mowing and associated with a developed recreation area, campsites, fresh water beaches, picnic areas, staging and gathering areas.)
> Be sure to be kind to any of our ambassadors who kindly remind you of the rules. Let’s be proud of our stewardship on the lands we use!
> Happy Trails,
> NH Horse Council Trails Committee



At a place in Maine where some friends did a beach ride, they actually had one person carrying a manure fork with them in the saddle, like a scabbard; she was the designated poop fairy and got off every time someone's horse pooped to fork it up and throw it in the ocean. It is pretty incredible how disconnected people are from animals and nature. Sad stuff.


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## SueC

@bsms, I agree with your post, and for some reason I also had to laugh riotously. I'm going to highlight the especially funny bits... It's true, but also funny somehow - or maybe I'm just going around the twist - maybe, we laugh because it's better for us than sinking into depression over things that we can do so little about...



bsms said:


> Glad to hear I'm not the only one frustrated by how disconnected many folks are from the natural environment. "_Perhaps they will want to diaper the elk soon as well._" *I'm not sure some people realize elk poop!* :rofl:
> 
> I loved the comment by VS Littauer about show jumping *creating artificial problems that needed artificial solutions. That describes city life to me. The sheer unreality of city life seems to create man-made problems which then require even more bizarre solutions.* :rofl: The cycle repeats, and each cycle brings additional disconnect.
> 
> I've got about 300 acres of easy access desert just a 5 minute walk from my house. I've seen neighborhood kids there once in a great while. I'll see another adult...once every couple of years? In 15 years, I've seen one other guy jogging in the desert. Jogging is much less popular than it once was, maybe because it involves going outside? I've read it is popular, that 60-70 million Americans do it...but I notice it is harder to find jogging shorts in stores or real jogging shoes retail. *Maybe they jog on jogging machines. Or maybe they jog virtually! Can one jog on a smart phone while sitting on a couch?* :rofl:
> 
> You cannot own a horse without horse poop. In a way, that is part of the beauty of owning a horse. It forces us back to our roots in reality. *OMG! Horse poop on a beach!* :rofl: Yeah, and seagulls may poop on your windshield. Deal with it!
> 
> My wife and I still like our house alright. *We could shut off the unneeded bedrooms and we like the property. But the city is growing ever nearer, and with it comes uncounted people living disconnected lives. It is like a zombie invasion.* :rofl: And our only solution seems to be running away...:evil:
> 
> My own picture from the San Rafael overlook:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The daughter of my sheepranching friend had her wedding here. Me? I stay back from the edge. Sorry. I'm a weenie. *But at least I'll never fall off while backing up to "take a selfie"! I don't need to see something on my phone to believe it is real.* :rofl:


Thank you for decreasing my stress hormone levels by writing things I can laugh about.  And I too am a wuss and stay well away from sheer drops when going in the mountains.

If you've never watched the film _Idiocracy_, let me warmly recommend it to you. :Angel: Just for the sort of lives future people are depicted to end up leading... and the size of that disconnect... none of the trailers look attractive, it's just the shock value of the whole thing, the satires of how the entire system depends in people being idiotic etc...


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> OMG! Horse poop on a beach! Yeah, and seagulls may poop on your windshield. Deal with it!
> 
> ...But the city is growing ever nearer, and with it comes uncounted people living disconnected lives. It is like a zombie invasion. And our only solution seems to be running away...:evil:


At some point you just have to flee...get away from the zombies.
That is some beautiful country in Utah. Incredible.

We lived for several years underneath a bald eagle sky route, and seagull poop is nothing compared to bald eagle poop on your windshield! It would hit our deck with a boom. 

You all restore my faith in humanity.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, that new avatar of yours is very oomphy!


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## lostastirrup

Gottatrot- How large must eagle poop be?!?!

It must be common with horse people that the rest of the world is shocked that livestock produce large deposits. Though I don't see the objection- they don't smell terrible and they are composed of mostly grass. Give them a week and they pretty much dissolve in the rain. Where I lived in AK it was more of an issue since while people are outdoorsy, they dont keep or know much about horses or cows. Montana- I've ridden down the streets of my city with not a care, leaving our apples where they fall. 

I too have a poop story. It goes like this: 




My junior year of highschool a friend and I snuck out two horses we were told explicitly not to ride and even more explicitly to not go trail riding. So naturally being the totally depraved creatures that we were we packed our saddle bags and off we went. We snuck them under the overpass by the creek and brought them up through someone's driveway to meet up with the main trail. We WERE having an incredible ride, headed along the the path on a crisp start of fall day, when a local law enforcement car pulls off the road and up in front of us. At this point we are quite nervous. When the officer gets out and comes towards us, I think both our hearts sank into our feet. Turns out, on that trail ride that morning the horses had had the audacity to drop a loaf on the trail, and a self proclaimed "pillar of the community" had been walking her dog and had been scandalized by it. The officer was there to inform us that though horses were allowed on the trail, they were not allowed to poop on it. We assured him- though we had no intention of doing so moments before, that we planned to return with a car, to collect the dropped poop. He approved, asked us for our names and our horses names, and we lied through teeth like scoundrels- in case it got back to the one person more terrifying than God and the police- our barn owner, that we had been out on those horses. We finished our ride quickly, and when the horses were put away and all saddle marks scientifically removed, us two youngest children- with no cars of our own, called my brother and asked him to drive us around in his car and load it with poop. To his credit, he arrived promptly and didn't complain at all about the smell.


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## bsms

If my horse poops on the paved street going to the desert, I'll clean it up after my return. Other than that...if someone is scandalized to see some on a trail, THEY can kick it off! This is ARIZONA, BLAST IT! What's next? "_Your horse made a mud puddle..._" or "_OMG! What IS that......OMG! OMG! Maybe it's a BOY horse! EWWWWW! It's a FLOOD!_"

And the complaints would come from some of the same people who defend the right of HUMANS to poop on the sidewalk in front of my niece's front door in Portland! And to leave needles there...


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## gottatrot

Hilarious story, @lostastirrup!

I found a picture but sometimes the splats were double this size.


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## Dragoon

Hey, I have a BOY horse!

Maybe I should tape a happy face emoji circle over his sheath in case his boy parts fall out. Wouldn't want anyone to get offended by his winkie.


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## phantomhorse13

Dragoon said:


> Maybe I should tape a happy face emoji circle over his sheath in case his boy parts fall out. Wouldn't want anyone to get offended by his winkie.


A horse penis can cause quite a stir to the right zombie.. :icon_rolleyes:


One of the rides we attend in the finger lakes of NY has camp in a big field beside a popular vineyard. Wine is the main produce of the area so wine tours happen constantly, with the buses loading and unloading right beside the vetting area. 

One afternoon, I was vetting at the finish and the horse beside us decided that was a good time to pee. Seeing that actually makes endurance people happy, as it means the horse is well-hydrated (assuming the urine is normal color anyway). So wasn't I startled to hear a drunken female voice shout, "OMG Jessie, LOOK AT THAT ****! It puts yours to shame!!"

I have never heard _everyone_ at a ride get silent so fast. Of course most of us were now looking at Jessie, who turned bright red and went storming away.

The vet was laughing so hard she needed a moment to compose herself before she could finish with Phin's exam. :rofl:


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## gottatrot

Ha ha, so funny @Dragoon. Great story, @phantomhorse13!

On Monday I rode Hero a couple of miles around the barn property. It was good practice for him, getting better at going into some places that have been scary for him in the past. The woods by the road were unnerving, and he hopped and spun back around a couple of times. He quickly got unstuck and then we proceeded through the woods. I was quite proud of him for going along well without spooking. Later, when we looped around the top of the fields, he stalled out near some bushes where I've seen coyotes hiding. I wasn't sure if he smelled something or not, and he didn't want to go forward, so I got off and led him for a couple of minutes. Then I got back on and he finished out the loop very well. I was riding in my Ghost treeless saddle, which he moved out well in. I remembered that not long ago I had needed to walk 70% of this ride and this time I had only walked 5%, so it felt like a big improvement for Hero.

Tuesday I met up with Nala's rider for the first time since she moved her horses out into the country. She had been riding both Nickel and Nala in the indoor and outdoor arena, and had not yet been on the trails. She wanted me to show her the trails, which I knew very well since I boarded at that barn for about four years. 

I was pleased to see the barn has been kept up very well, and was full of horses. 

Nala's rider wanted to try a Kimberwicke on Nickel, so I brought Hero's for her to try. The issue is that Nickel can get very strong when out in the open, going fast. When Nala's rider bought him, he was using a double-jointed snaffle with a thick lozenge. She switched him to a french link, but she and I had both noticed when he was cantering on the beach or an open area you could feel Nickel pushing through and ignoring it. He is very light in an arena, and this is only when the adrenaline is going. 

We tacked up the horses, and I put the Kimberwicke on Nickel. Nala's rider wondered if we should lunge first or go into the arena to ride around. I pulled gently back on the Kimberwicke and Nickel backed up six feet. When I pulled gently again, he threw his head up. The chain was very loose, so I noted to myself that I would have to be careful. Well, I considered the horses would have to do some serious hill climbing on this ride, so didn't want to wear Nickel out. He hadn't reared, so I figured we'd sort it out on the ride.

We headed up the hill, not knowing if my old route to get onto the logging roads was still clear. Nala's rider preferred checking to see first, rather than heading the half mile down the road. I couldn't blame her for not wanting to take either of her TBs out alone, up into the woods. I know that I would have been unable to stop myself, regardless, if I were her. :smile:

Woods change A LOT in 5 years. There was some kind of trail where I thought my old trail might be, so we put the horses on it. Nickel had been very looky and snorty all the way up the hill, and once we entered the bushes he got worked up. It was tricky because I really couldn't make contact with the bit, because when the chain touched his chin he acted like something bit him. I directed him lightly, to prevent him plunging into the underbrush, and he lifted up his front legs and hopped a couple times. We decided we were on an elk trail, and turned the horses to go back out. Apparently a branch fell onto Nickel's hindquarters, which I didn't know until afterward. All I knew was that once we got off the trail and onto the steep, grassy slope, Nickel got all worked up and was dancing rapidly in all directions, and I was trying to keep him moving and not rearing, which he did a couple of times. It was not ideal footing, a bit slick. My reins were very loose, so it wasn't the Kimberwicke that was messing him up. After about two minutes I decided his energy was working up and not down, so I said "I'm getting off," and Nala's rider said "Good idea." 

I didn't think twice, just found a split second where Nickel's legs were not churning and did a flying leap off, keeping in mind the slope was downhill and grass. It was quite a jump, off a 17 hand horse downhill, but I landed very nicely on my feet without twisting any ankles or sliding. Nickel began to calm down quickly. We decided we should head back down toward the road.

A couple hundred yards away, I spotted a marker I remembered and saw the actual beginning to my old trail. I decided to lead Nickel to the top, since it looked slightly overgrown, and Nala's rider was still on her horse and followed. Halfway up the trail, at the steepest part, the underbrush was completely across the trail. I wasn't sure if we were going to make it, but there was no room to turn around. Nickel politely waited behind me, breathing on top of my head while I tried breaking through. Some of it was so thick I had to lay on it, and try not to slip back down the hill or under the giant horse behind me. Nala's rider's pants got holes ripped in them, but we made it! I said, "Aren't you glad you asked me to show you the trails?"

We found out later from the barn owner that she had wanted to clear the trail a few weeks earlier but her kids had been stung by wasps when they went to clear it. So they had abandoned the idea.

With trepidation, Nala's rider followed me, wondering what was next. However, we were now on the main logging roads and I knew everything would be fine. We did a lot of trotting, and the horses got rid of a lot of energy. As we rode I thought about how both horses had gone from full time turnout to now being in a stall for about 15 hrs at night. Plus their field was not very large. Their owner was trying to exercise them, but in an arena rather than on miles of trails. It made sense Nickel had been a bit much at the start. 

Along the way I tried adapting Nickel to the Kimberwicke chain. Anything more than a touch would bring him up in my face. He began tolerating a slight feel, or a gentle pulsing with my fingers. After we turned for home, Nala was long trotting and Nickel was trying to rush up on her rear, and I had to take up the reins. Even though I was still light, he stopped dead and popped up off the ground with his front legs. It was just too much bit for him. Funny, because little Halla used to blast through that same bit like it was nothing. Hero also never acts like the chain is sharp at all. Nickel must have a sensitive chin. 

We power walked down the gravel roads and went down to the main gate at the road rather than attempting to thrash back through the bushes. The horses did not mind the cars that came by. 

Hopefully Nala's rider will feel more comfortable about going out on her own now that she knows the trails a bit. Otherwise I'll have to meet up with her again soon. 
We are wondering what to use on Nickel. If he can't take the Kimberwicke with a mullen mouth, he's not going to tolerate a curb. He has a low palate so his owner thinks a single jointed snaffle is out. She is wondering about a Dr. Bristol, that might be a little more pressure on the tongue. Other thoughts I have are maybe a Kineton noseband or perhaps a gag. 

It was quite foggy the whole ride so I didn't take pictures, but Nala's rider got a couple of us coming back on the road.


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## bsms

Just a couple of suggestions on the Kimberwicke....

Most western curbs use a leather curb strap. It would be possible to hand-make one with a wide area under the chin. I've never understood why English bits go to a chain instead of leather. Something like what Bandit often uses might work well:










https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weaver-Pro...683602&hash=item1ec9cd2278:g:YT4AAOSwi1lcNP48​
There is nothing to affect a low palette at all. Direct reining is fine with it and the pressure ratio is about the same as a Kimberwicke. The sides are longer so it takes more hand action to create a given rotation. Mia's old Billy Allen has longer sides...weighs a little more but also softer since the pressure ratio is the same and it takes even more hand movement to rotate it.








Also, when I transition a horse to a curb, I start with light horizontal flexions standing next to the horse and then work on vertical flexions in the same way. Vertical flexing is harder for a horse to figure out but I'd rather have them figure it out while I'm standing next to them than when I'm on their back. The horizontal flexes go very fast because it isn't really a different feel. The vertical ones take a larger initial pressure, sometimes with light pulses, until they give a tiny dip with the nose - usually 1/2 inch. Release pressure, praise, then repeat. I call it good enough when they can yield a couple inches vertically. Then I mount up and we work on stops from a walk in an arena. It too Mia three rides in an arena to get OK with the curb. Took Bandit about 15 minutes just because Bandit is a lot less sensitive about things.

I probably could have just taken Bandit out on a trail right away...but not as tough a challenge as y'all were doing. If a horse won't dip his nose in response to a pull on both reins when I'm standing next to him, then I figure he doesn't understand. It sounds to me like Nickel didn't know what was wanted.

If I had to do it over, I'd have some treats on me and give them one each time they yielded vertically. I think that would have made things go very fast. Just a thought. I think western Billy Allens are very gentle bits. They also don't get grass caught on them when a horse grabs a bite. If I could only own one bit, I'd probably make it a Billy Allen.


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## phantomhorse13

Duroc, the TB of Lani's that is a rearer, can't stand a curb chain or strap of any sort.. I think it tweaks his claustrophobia. After a bit of experimentation, we finally found this makes him (and me) happy:










I think this works well for him for a couple reasons. The bit's mouthpiece conforms to his low palate. The gag action means he actually gets some pre-signal, which normally is enough to work as a cue. However, if his blood is up (such as being able to see a horse in front of him), it gives me a way to get his attention as it keeps him from throwing his weight forward and charging through the bit.


For Nickel, your friend could always attach the reins to the big rings so it acts like a snaffle for ring work, then have the option of moving the reins down to the shanks when out on trail. Or if she is really dedicated she can ride with two reins.


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## knightrider

@loosie put this article in another thread. Since the folks on these journals actually enjoy learning about different opinions and wrapping their minds around concepts, I submit loosie's article for your perusal. I found it fascinating.

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/...-reins-horses/

I know nothing about side reins, have never used them and know I never will. But it sure was interesting to me, and hopefully to the folks who like to learn about interesting stuff.


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## egrogan

@knightrider, I will read the article but you started my day off with laughter because it begins with a snippet of my favorite chicken video of all time. The whole thing is actually a commercial for Mercedes called “magic body control”. 





Ok, back to the more intelligent discussion on side reins-just couldn’t resist :rofl:


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## bsms

The link didn't work for me. Maybe the Internet knows side reins are beyond Bandit & I...:winetime:

Also - LOVE the chicken video. Looks like a chicken would make a good rider....


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## lostastirrup

That mist makes the the ride look otherworldly it's gorgeous . 
I second @phantomhorse13 on the gag with two reins. Some horses don't like the pressure around their face with a curb. I do know Nick resents the curb as well (although he still goes in it for cows so that a worse abuse doesn't happen- us both dying) and he's always been fussy about riders being in his face (that's a nope. Insert rear, bolt, and fling sideways) and having pressure on his face. Like bsms said you could just make the curb strap softer too. Wrapping it in vet wrap would be my quick and dirty solution. 

Found the article on side reins. The link was broken for me too. https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/28/dont-use-side-reins-horses/

It's a good discussion. I've been told there's only one gait appropriate for the use of side reins- the trot, where the head does not naturally move in relationship to the body. If you want to teach a horse to travel on the bit on the lunge- you can actually do it without holding the head back to the body. Turning your hip into the horses hip and asking them to carry it more to the outside and alignment and then asking them to move their forehand in with the lunge line attached to the halter works well. You kind of pulse it. Ask for the hip out, then the forehand in, and then pause and wait for them to think on it before asking again. Most of them go much more rythmic and through in the back this way and may drop their nose to the dirt in a the stretch while getting a nice lofty gait. I also think it helps to use a lightweight lunge line. I use a dog tracking line, because I don't like the weight of the line disturbing the horse's way of going by slapping on the halter. But also my horse is a pansy and is disturbed by a feather fall.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Sadly I dont have time to go into a discussion on side reins. I've heard people say they're bad or it forces a horse's frame and I loosely read the article. I'm just wondering what their measures and controls were. depending on how you do it and what horses you test can affect the results. I also think the article neglects how side reins are used to change posture and bodily habits and how it isnt just putting on reins and having them fight or dumbly accept pressure. You have to teach them how to work with side reins or what the article describes is true. But you have to know what you're doing, looking for and how to correct the issue OR it CAN cause more harm than good. HOWEVER NOT using side reins in a training program does not show a better program. Almost every person I've heard brag about not using side rein (in dressage context) has horses that dont really move through their bodies or really use themselves in a way I consider correct in dressage context (not talking about other disciplines). Poll might be highest point, they track up and the back is kinda up but they're not really stepping through their body. And I dont think most people have an eye for that, even most dressage people dont.

But dressage rides with more contact and a shorter rein. True collection has some tension. It shouldnt be all tension but it isnt the same riding in a high level frame and riding collected work vs riding say 2nd level and ride barely collected and kinda going by. Having more contact is imo much harder to ride than long and low. I find long and low very easy, even weaving patterns but with the shorter rein and more contact, takes so much more and better organization between horse and rider and for the movements for say half pass, pirouette, piaffe and passage I think to do it well and train it takes more contact. 

The objective of side reins isnt to simply bring the head down. But to provide a consistent, non elastic contact that they learn to work into and accept. I think a lot of it is about learning to accept direction, as well as how to work into a contact and push from the hind end into the bridle. Then there are a lot of "tricks" and skills that go along with lunging well. How to position shoulder fore, haunches fore based on body position and how you carry the lunge line. How you use and position the whip. How you can change a horse's body and way of going without putting a riders weight over them. Or warm up an especially tense horse without pressuring them or putting weight on the back. To let the muscles loosen slowly and release tension. It helps give them something to work into to help with balance, control of rhythm, etc. Lunging is truly a skill and an art that is not very appreciated. 

I can get most horses to stretch down just lunging in a halter (not Wonder, he drag me at the walk and spins and goes the other way if I lunge with halter). But the goal is not to just get the head down. I dont like lunging a horse that way either because it makes them more on the forehand, not really through or over the back or learn how to push into contact and step through their body and really come up in the back. Using side reins has REALLY helped me get Wonder to lighten in the bridle and RESPECT contact. nearly 2 years ago, he decided he didnt want to half halt, so I held my core as strong as I could and sat against him in the saddle (not hauling against him but sitting against his momentum) and he pulled so hard against me, he tore all my core muscles and lifted me up over his neck with my belly button on his mane. He had NO respect for contact or boundaries, he'd find the boundary and just take over. Took months to fix that. But side reins have allowed me to re train countless others horses from rough situations to accept contact as a connection, instead of to brace against. A side rein is much more steady and consistent than a human hand will ever be and is a safe place for a lot of horses to learn about contact and how to soften and learn to work over their back and move in balance WITHOUT the interference of a rider. 

I entirely agree to correct a lot of things a rider needs to be on to correct the balance. For example how to get Wonder to actually punch through with his right hind leg and move through his back in the trot. Such tricky, have to have almost perfect feel and timing between inside and outside rein, inside and outside leg and core and help him organize. Then he got that, so then poll work has helped. Lunging him through polls in side reins helped teach him how to extend and hold a rhythm while pushing off his hind end and over his back. 

I also disagree that "correct aids equals correct movement" I'd say that is a pretty naive statement (author seems to agree) and makes the idea that horses and developing horses is a black and white program where the horse just follows the programs. I say you have to cater the program and system to fit the horse, not the horse to the system. Im drawn to horses who are outliers and dont fit the "norm" so I think exceptions have to be made within a system to understand the horse. I think in general yes, if you give the correct aid you should get the correct reaction but I've ridden so many horses where that simply isnt the case. But I also agree the horse will work to protect the weaknesses in their body ESPECIALLY if it is a weakness that hasnt been addressed.

I have also done quite a bit of rehab and was able to work with horses and bring them back to soundness successfully. Not necessarily due to side rein but Magellan was pretty incredible. He has advanced EPM before he received treatment and could barely move his hind legs forward. He was so stiff. It took months of re-training but after 6 months the dressage work and lunging had really helped him re learn how to use his body and after a year, you couldnt tell he had ever been neurological.

Another friend has a horse with shivers and others problems and she was able to keep active into her late teens because of her dressage work. They think the work helped her keep aware of her body. I think wiring the brain to keep making those connections matters. But that mare scored in nearly the 70s at 3rd or 4th level before being retired. Tricky mare. 

Actual article
Reasons why we do not use sidereins

I'm presenting a little vaguely and not conclusively and without science. I sadly dont have time to really go into detail but offering food for thought.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Just a couple of suggestions on the Kimberwicke...


Thank you for the suggestions! That was a very polite way of saying the horse was rushed without adequate preparation. I hear it, and the horse's reaction was also my reprimand. 



phantomhorse13 said:


> Duroc, the TB of Lani's that is a rearer, can't stand a curb chain or strap of any sort..


Thank you for the bit suggestion, I sent it on to Nickel's owner. It seems like a good one, since he responds to the snaffle and understands it, and a gag is basically a stronger snaffle. I think we will try that before using a softer curb strap. Since Nickel responded so strongly, I have the feeling he objects to the curb action altogether. 

It kind of makes me wonder...Nickel was used for eventing but apparently got too excited when he got over a certain height. That sounds to me like they have not have been able to find the right bit for him. Then the owner spent a lot of time doing dressage with him, but he was schooling third level movements and now I wonder if his objection to a curb was part of the decision to sell him. He is quite sound and has a lot of training, so his price to me was a little suspect. 
@knightrider, thanks for sharing the side reins article.
@egrogan, I was imagining a chicken riding a horse with a helmet camera on, and it would be the steadiest footage you ever saw!




DanteDressageNerd said:


> He had NO respect for contact or boundaries, he'd find the boundary and just take over. Took months to fix that. But side reins have allowed me to re train countless others horses from rough situations to accept contact as a connection, instead of to brace against. A side rein is much more steady and consistent than a human hand will ever be and is a safe place for a lot of horses to learn about contact and how to soften and learn to work over their back and move in balance WITHOUT the interference of a rider.


I agree with a lot of what you say, and some things I have a different opinion on. I've used side reins, more recently for potentially correct reasons, and early on with horses for wrong reasons. 
One reason you mention, which is taking a horse that has had a rough situation and using them for retraining a concept is a potentially right reason a person might use side reins. 
Something I disagree with is that a side rein is a better contact than a human hand. I could agree with that if the side reins were only used at the trot, but used at the walk and canter, side reins are a worse contact than we can give them. Ideally, a good rider will move with the horse at the walk and canter, and as the horse's body changes we can keep the contact the same. Side reins do not do this, and the pressure becomes less and more as the horse moves. This means that the horse has to either accept inconsistent pressure (less and then more), or else the horse has to move his own body to keep the pressure from changing. That is in essence backing away from the bit, not accepting the bit which is supposedly what the side reins teach. I think most often what a horse learns from side reins is that he has to accept varying amounts of pressure from a bit while moving forward. Whether or not this is helpful or detrimental depends a lot on the horse and what you are going to be doing with him. On the lunge we can get the horse moving strongly forward into the bit, which we can't always do under saddle, especially if the horse has had bad experiences.



DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think in general yes, if you give the correct aid you should get the correct reaction but I've ridden so many horses where that simply isnt the case. But I also agree the horse will work to protect the weaknesses in their body ESPECIALLY if it is a weakness that hasnt been addressed.


I agree very much with this and thought the author of the article had some good points about it. Something that was mentioned I have found to be true is that the horse protecting weaknesses is not necessarily a conscious decision or strategy. That is why doing things that force the horse into a position before he has recovered enough from the weakness or imbalance will not often help the horse correct the imbalance. 

Our bodies are much the same. An example of this is the somewhat minor hematoma I had recently to my gluteal muscles. Since I have found out about this concept the hard way, I tried to not do hard physical activity such as running until the muscle had healed some. That is difficult for me, so I started back a little too early. Even though I made every conscious effort to run evenly and normally, weighting each side of my body like usual, the next day my opposite calf was sore. Even though the injured area was not feeling sore to the point where I felt it while running, it had some weakness that my body reflexively protected, and compensated even though I tried not to. 

This is why I'm learning that rehab for unbalanced horses requires more slower work than I tend to do, because if you get to a level where the horse's body needs to compensate (at faster gaits), you will not be able to develop them evenly. I am thinking the concept is that you can work a weaker area in isolation to get it stronger, but if you ask for whole body movement there will be compensation, consciously or unconsciously. You have to walk before you can run, and I think it is the same when overcoming body issues with horses. I can get an uncompensated walk before I can get it when jogging, after injuries. But until the body is balanced at the walk, trotting will do no good, even if you try to force the horse to use the weaker areas.


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## Knave

I completely get what you are saying about compensating. (As far as side reins, or if you rushed the curb, any of that I have no opinion because I’ve never used the side reins and transitioning bridles seems a bit easier in my world. We try to not have contact, so it’s just different.) 

I was pretty sure I broke something in my foot. I still am convinced of it. It was hurting pretty dramatically, and I remembered @SueC ‘s injury and her eventually buying the hiking boots. I rarely wear shoes unless I’m riding or working (or there is snow), so I started wearing basketball shoes. It helped, but I compensated for sure. 

A few weeks into it I wanted to get back into my exercise program. First I couldn’t do it; the foot was too bad. Last week though I tried again. If I could force myself not to compensate for the foot it really didn’t seem to get any worse, but I often find myself hitting harder on the other foot, or being just faster and taking the weight with it.


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## gottatrot

Happy Thanksgiving!!

Our weather has been a bit more dry and cold.









Have had a couple of good rides with Hero, he's generally improving overall. On Tuesday it was cold plus windy, however, and _all_ the horses were jumpy. The elk were jumpy too, running around and even knocking over the horse troughs.

I just did a short ride on Hero, but I was somewhat proud of both of us. I brought him over to the mounting block, he stood nicely, I got on, settled into the saddle, and then he went ten feet sideways. Big spook. After that I rode him around in the field, and he thought everything looked a bit off, from the plant that appeared to be a horse-eating venus flytrap to the overturned bucket near the gate. 

After a few minutes, he settled at the walk, but when I had him trot he did a crazy, twirly spook that included some turning half rearing and a bit of flailing the front hooves up toward his nose. This was about a ten second deal.









The part that made me proud was that I gave Hero a swat, and then gave him a lecture about facing his fears with less drama, and then we rode around for a few more minutes with him being settled and calm. 
It was one of these slow improvements I am noting as the months go by, different because: I was able to get him through it while remaining in the saddle, and also he didn't get stuck but continued doing transitions and moving forward rather than being unable to continue due to being overly upset. He listened to me and overcame his anxiety, and we ended on a good note. Success.


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## SueC

Bwahaha, the first graphic! :rofl:

Windy weather always seems to bring out the ghosts... probably the ghosts of all the carnivores that once roamed this planet and have gone beyond... 

Congratulations on not falling off, these sound like pretty spectacular high-velocity moves. :charge:

I bet once he settled after the swat, you were cooing to him and telling him he was the cleverest OTTB in the known universe! :blueunicorn: 

The spooking immediately brought to mind some Thelwell cartoons, because I looked at a lot yesterday. You probably already know this one:










But, how about _this_ one? :Angel:


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## gottatrot

I love Thelwell's ponies. 
The high velocity of Hero is far easier to ride than the high velocity of Halla, or especially of Amore. For one thing, he follows a theory of horse physics that "objects heading in one direction tend to stay in one direction," which Amore does not believe in. He also is long, with a neck and rump to orient yourself by. Amore always thought the first thing to go in an emergency should be her neck. 








And Hero does not seem to enjoy twisting the way Amore always did. 
When Hero turns it is like, "We are turning, here we go." When Amore turned it was like:









I mean, why would you buck in a straight line when you could add some flair?








Why would you want to leave your back as a horizontal plane for a rider to sit on?








That horse cared very much about trying to educate me thoroughly.


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## SueC

:rofl:

The neck thing is a real factor, including its natural length. My late Arabian mare, and Sunsmart, and his French Trotter great-grandmother, all had/have long necks on generous frames, and plenty of length of rein, and the feeling of having a lot of horse in front of you. And then I rode a friend's rescue OTSTB a few years back; a new-type STB with a short neck - the breed has been tending that way. When I rode him, I kept having the disconcerting feeling that I was riding on the edge of a cliff. I don't think his neck formed any safety buffer for avoiding unplanned dismounts... it was just the saddle, a short bit of neck, a head carried low, and the wild blue yonder in front of that with barely any separation from me... ever ridden a horse constructed like that? He was very well-behaved, but it was really disconcerting...


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## bsms

Bandit's head and heck are divine: omnipresent!

















When he gets nervous, his head goes higher still, so I can darn near scratch his ears while seated when he is tense. Trooper always feels like the headless horse:

















Mia never gave warning of a spook. *She was there. Then she was not.* Without an Australian saddle, I wouldn't have been either. Bandit's spooks were more like this:








Now he mostly holds his ground, or simply twists sideways while still moving forward. We've both become lean-ers, so the leaning doesn't bother me. IF I know it is coming, and Bandit usually gives at least a half-second of warning. The hard part for me was always strolling along, unconcerned, when suddenly Mia would disappear...:shock:


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## phantomhorse13

As someone used to high-headed arabs, riding a horse with a level neck carriage is very worrisome to me. I alternate between wondering if I will be ejected at the first spook and worrying the horse is about to buck..


I am glad that things with Hero are improving with every ride!


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> I am glad that things with Hero are improving with every ride!


Oh great, Murphy's law...yesterday I rode Hero and he was _very_ spooky. We didn't end up getting much accomplished other than zooming around here and there. Oh well, progress is never linear with horses. 

I wanted to thank you for the bit suggestion for Nickel, and his owner says thanks too. She was wondering how many snaffles she would have tried...anyway, the gag works superbly for him. You can see in the photo of him wearing it how relaxed he is. It was just right for his mouth and mind, and when I tested him cantering, competing with Nala, he was very responsive so I actually let him gallop up the hill with her. That's the first time I've been comfortable letting him out, since in a plain snaffle you could tell he was never going to stop again once he got excited. I was able to place him where I wanted on the hill, let him extend or bring him back, and slow him without having him hop up in the air like he did with the kimberwicke. It was great!


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## Knave

That's great about Nala! I know what you mean about those days of spooking too. Cash has been an angel and then had a little run away a couple days ago. It wasn't a big deal, but it reminded me of what he felt like at first. lol


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## gottatrot

I was just reading a post on another thread and it made me think...
Many people say horses are sensitive to whether people are confident or nervous, and that it affects them, making them nervous or confident too. I think this is sometimes true, but some horses are confident or nervous regardless of any "vibes" or body language cues the rider or handler is giving them. 
I am positive some horses just do not have a feel for people in that way, since I've had horses that were superbly confident on days I was less so, and horses that were jittery messes on days I felt like it wouldn't scare me to ride a steeplechase bareback or down the hill in the "Snowy River" movie (tongue in cheek). 

It just occurred to me that I have often read of riders that felt nervous on certain horses, but other horses made them feel very confident. This seemed to be independent of whether the horse was actually experienced or not, or well trained or not. Or even if the horse had proven himself trustworthy or not. I wonder if the reverse can be true, that a horse's confidence or lack of, influences people who are sensitive to those things, and that just as people sometimes create nervousness or confidence in a horse, horses also sometimes create by their confident nature or "vibe," confidence or nervousness in a rider. It is interesting for me to consider. 

Another topic:
I'm considering getting a two horse bumper pull trailer for Christmas. I'm very undecided on what kind to buy. I always thought I would get a slant load, but both Nala/Nickel's owner and Brave/Cass' owner have nice straight load trailers with ramps and movable dividers. They're really easy to load into and not claustrophobic. They say they're better for bigger horses since they are longer than slant loads.








It might be that I just wait and see which type comes up in my price range that seems nice.

What I really would like for Hero is to be able to trailer out to more trails that are on firm ground. He feels much more comfortable working on ground that is not uneven or soft, due to his stifle issues. He's much more sound this year than last. However, he still does not enjoy working on uneven ground and he's just never going to have stable stifles due to his conformation.

Today I was thinking that his naughty streak runs about a mile deep, and I have to get past the naughty to get to the good. Since he was so spooky the last time I worked with him, today I lunged him for fifteen minutes first. Although I asked him to warm up slowly at the walk, after five minutes he felt he should buck and gallop on the end of the line, before finally settling and walking. That was when I got on and rode him, once he was all sweated up, and then he was angelic. 

Except for when I was all done and taking his boots off, I did him the favor of rubbing his sweaty head, and accidentally poked him in the eye with my finger, and before I could blink he had bitten said finger. Well, I slapped him for that but it was one of those "Halla" moments, another horse who believes in the strict code of fairness which says if you poke me in the eye I can bite you. Thankfully it was a light bite, because he probably could have taken the finger off before I even knew what happened.
Well, not everyone loves this kind of horse.

We have a new guy doing barn chores, however, and I met him for the first time today. I told him I had Hero and Amore, and he said "Oh, Hero is my favorite." He told me he thought it was so entertaining to see Hero go and do his stand off stares with the elk, all puffed up. Yes, I agreed that he does have a lot of attitude. For sure. :smile::smile:


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## Dragoon

I'm so sorry you got bitten, glad it wasn't too hard. I agree with your stance that it was a fair trade. Hero was speaking horse to you. A sign he feels he can communicate with this human? 
I am in doubt they understand the concept that we are fragile. (Adult) small horses and big ones treat each other alike that I can see...

The OTTB mare here does not show the same level of deference that the others do. She is quick to tell me if she doesn't like something. She also wasn't raised to be a riding horse, the others were. Wonder if its the upbringing?


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## Knave

Hmm... I do think that horses can feed off their riders. Cash is definitely a horse like that; he's probably the horse I've ridden most effected by my emotions. This strikes me as odd because he seems very stoic. Bones on the other hand is aware of his rider's emotions, but he relates to them differently. He is on the other spectrum of being extremely emotional himself. However, if you are having a bad day, he will step up his game in what seems to be an effort to take care of your emotions. I think he expects the same of his rider when he is having a nervous and upset day. It is a bad day if the rider and horse are on the same page with him...


I guess I figure horses do read our emotions, just as we read theirs. Their reactions are what is dependent. Probably this is the same with us. If I am around a person who is having a bad attitude I get very nervous myself, but there are people out there that can act completely regardless of someone else's emotions.


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## egrogan

Not sure if I was contributing to the thread you had in mind, but my limited experience with Isabel and Fizz has definitely indicated that horses react based on our emotions- in my case while riding, that seems to be nervousness vs. confidence. You probably know I would consider myself a somewhat nervous rider. I know intellectually that means if my horse starts boinging around in excitement or resistance, I'm going to tense up throughout my body, tip forward, grip the reins, and in turn, the horse is going to react to this sudden "locking up" with worry too, and then things start to escalate. Unfortunately knowing that intellectually doesn't always mean I can stop it, but I do feel much more aware of it and more capable of breaking up that involuntary reaction before it takes over. A work in progress.

Now that I know Fizz better, I can start to see the signs of her internalizing her worry (clenched lips and jaw, eye-rolling yawns, tightly pinning her left ear) so that I can focus on consciously relaxing my body to help bring her back from her nervousness before it escalates. It does seem to work if I can consciously de-escalate my own emotional reaction in time, so that whatever she might do next doesn't make me more nervous. I really like an exercise called "The Five Senses," where you go through what you see, feel, hear, and smell and tune in to your body and how its interacting with the environment around you and the horse. Having that intentional body awareness also helps me resist the urge to tense up everywhere, and I can feel Fizz relax under me when I relax. 

Years ago I realized I had accidentally trained Izzy to break into a trot whenever I took up contact on the reins- because I had unintentionally been translating my nervousness to clutching the reins when she started to go faster, she started to think that contact meant "go faster"- the exact opposite of what I wanted to happen!


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## egrogan

Just a little more rambling because you've made me think about this...


I am also of the opinion that most of my particular challenges/problems are ME problems. No one else really rides Fizz at this point. Last spring when I left her at my friend/trainer's place for a week between clinics, that trainer took her out for a couple of tune up trail rides and told me afterwards that Fizz "was the type of horse so many people are looking for but can't seem to find"- sensible but forward, brave but reasonable. And she's definitely closer to a 1 than a 10 on a "reactivity" scale- when she refuses or won't try to do something, it's generally because she doesn't really understand what's being asked, not because she's scared or "stubborn." So that makes me wonder how much her moments of "nervousness" would be non-existent if a person more like our trainer (naturally confident, gregarious, "I can take on the world" sort of person) rode her all the time vs. me. But I suppose that's more evidence that a horse _does _reflect what the rider is contributing, rather than sort of being the same regardless of who's on board? Hmmm...will be thinking about this for awhile this morning...


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## bsms

I agree SOME horses feed off their rider's emotions. Mia did not. Bandit even less so. I had a bit of trauma left in me from riding Mia and never knowing when she would disappear beneath me. Those spooks often came when I was totally calm, and in return, I was often concerned when she was not. 

But Bandit? Close to 0% correlation. He can be supremely confident when my gut is twisting inside me, to the point I sometimes think he is rising to the challenge and proving HE can take care of ME. He can also be very tense when I am 100% confident. Happily, he is slowly accepting that if I am entirely confident, I may be right.

May. But he is too smart to trust me entirely since he is often aware of something he knows I cannot smell or hear. 

He also has slid us underneath a swarm of traveling bees, thousands of them, low enough that I had to bend down against his neck to keep them from being in my face. He also lowered his neck - very rare for him - and just ambled along, emitting "_You bees have nothing to see or worry about here_" vibes until we were clear.

I accept some horses feed off of their rider. But not Mia and Bandit. I think I needed an independent horse like Bandit, one as independent as Mia but with more common sense, to get past my equine PTSD.


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## egrogan

^^That bee story is pretty incredible!


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## phantomhorse13

Glad to hear Nickel found a bit that he likes as much as the rider does. Also glad to hear your bite wasn't any worse - ouch!!


I hope the universe sends you the perfect trailer for your needs as getting Hero to more places would be fun for both of you. We have both a slant load and a straight load. I think which is 'best' really depends on the horse as some seem to prefer to ride at a slant while others ride straight (be that forward or backwards). To me, the mechanics of a straight load seems to put more even stress on both sides of the horse, but lots of horses ride very long distances in slants with seemingly no issues. I know some people don't like a straight load because they don't want to teach their horses to self load.


I think horses are very aware of our energy and emotions, but how they react to that information varies by the individual. If I so much as inhale sharply, Phin is on his toes looking for a monster whereas George would flick an ear and wonder what was wrong with me. I also think on some level I don't really understand, two being's energies can be complimentary or not, as I have ridden some horses who behaved just fine but I still didn't really care for and I have had some wild rides that I loved every moment of.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I guess I figure horses do read our emotions, just as we read theirs. *Their reactions are what is dependent.* Probably this is the same with us. If I am around a person who is having a bad attitude I get very nervous myself, but there are people out there that can act completely regardless of someone else's emotions.


That is a really good way to put it. I'm basically a "low reactor," meaning people (or animals) can get quite loud or crazy before it affects me. But it's rather relative. I could sit in a room with a barking dog for an hour and not be too bothered. But a crying baby gets me feeling agitated pretty quickly. If patients yell at me or get upset I can stay very calm. However, there are a few rare people who for some reason I react strongly to. One of my instructors in school had this strange, nervous energy and if I got within five feet of her I would start to feel jittery. 

I wonder why we don't think of this more. It's always emphasized that horses read our emotions, but obviously we read theirs too, and probably more than we realize on a subconscious level. Since there are people who are very calm and confident, and we feel they are good for nervous horses, maybe we should consider some horses "people makers" who are good for beginner riders, and create calmness and confidence in them. Not because of their training, but because of their confident body language and responses that reassure those who are nervous. 



egrogan said:


> Years ago I realized I had accidentally trained Izzy to break into a trot whenever I took up contact on the reins- because I had unintentionally been translating my nervousness to clutching the reins when she started to go faster, she started to think that contact meant "go faster"- the exact opposite of what I wanted to happen!


You have very good points. This part I thought was funny, because I intentionally teach that pre-cue (prepare to trot) by shortening the reins so I get a better transition. But Hero resists...I can shorten the reins all I want and tell him I'm planning to signal the trot, but he says he will trot when he is good and ready and I'm not to rush him. :smile: I can feel sometimes that when I shorten the reins he intentionally slows a little, probably to let me know that he'll consider my request and get back to me. Probably by text later in the afternoon. 



bsms said:


> I agree SOME horses feed off their rider's emotions. Mia did not. Bandit even less so....
> ...I think I needed an independent horse like Bandit, one as independent as Mia but with more common sense, to get past my equine PTSD.


That was really great, Bandit the bee whisperer.
When you're starting out, I think less sensitive horses are appealing since you don't get caught in a cycle of perpetuating each others' nerves. But when you're a bit farther along, it can be nice to be able to give a horse confidence just by being that way yourself. And sometimes it is frustrating when your horse won't settle even though you're _willing_ them to be calm and follow your lead. However, in the case of recovering from Mia, I definitely think Bandit is a great fit. 



phantomhorse13 said:


> I hope the universe sends you the perfect trailer for your needs as getting Hero to more places would be fun for both of you. We have both a slant load and a straight load. I think which is 'best' really depends on the horse as some seem to prefer to ride at a slant while others ride straight (be that forward or backwards). To me, the mechanics of a straight load seems to put more even stress on both sides of the horse, but lots of horses ride very long distances in slants with seemingly no issues. I know some people don't like a straight load because they don't want to teach their horses to self load.


Thanks for the info on trailers. The nice thing about those larger straight loads is you can still lead the horse in rather than having them self load. Your new trailer looks awesome!



phantomhorse13 said:


> I think horses are very aware of our energy and emotions, but how they react to that information varies by the individual. If I so much as inhale sharply, Phin is on his toes looking for a monster whereas George would flick an ear and wonder what was wrong with me. I also think on some level I don't really understand, two being's energies can be complimentary or not, as I have ridden some horses who behaved just fine but I still didn't really care for and I have had some wild rides that I loved every moment of.


That is the interesting part, what makes horses and riders compatible. People who want a long term relationship with a horse should think about this a lot before buying. Meaning, are you nervous because you're unsure about the horse or your skills, or is it something more? Maybe the horse is creating the nervousness in you because of the signals they send to your subconscious. Maybe it will always be difficult to be comfortable with this horse. If you get a good or bad feeling right away, it should be a consideration. We might be "reading" the horse in a way similar to how they read us.


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## knightrider

> I also think on some level I don't really understand, two being's energies can be complimentary or not, as I have ridden some horses who behaved just fine but I still didn't really care for and I have had some wild rides that I loved every moment of.


This is me, exactly. When I urge new horse buyers to wait until they "click" with a horse, this is what I am talking about. A lot of people on HF think that is incorrect. I probably describe it badly, because I think it is the most important aspect of buying a horse.

Isabeau and Acicate behaved horribly when I first bought them, but I couldn't wait to ride them every morning. I was nervous because I knew there were going to be fireworks, but I still couldn't wait to go for it.


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## Knave

That is such a good point @phantomhorse13. Sometimes I click with the hottest little things. I was raised on a hot breed of horses and they never bothered me at all. Then a couple horses managed to get under my skin, and I became a bit pickier. However, those hotter than fire sensitive horses are usually up my alley. It is funny the horses that make me nervous. I rode General for several years. He was a good horse, and many would argue the best horse that I made.


He ended up with ringbone and I gave him away for a small child. He was that broke; light as could be, he could dance like a dressage king and do any ranch work to boot. That said, General had a way of getting under my skin. He was, for lack of any better term, condescending. I would get nervous when he started that crap. I would start missing roping and he would get mad at my lack of competence! Before he ended up with ringbone I bought baby Bones. I wanted a horse that I had fun with. 



Husband started riding General. He was so impressed. "This is the best horse I have ever ridden. He is a true bridle horse," he said several times to me. I tried to explain to him that I knew the horse was spectacular, but that I didn't click with him. I rode him for several years, and I always had a tinge of anxiety underneath. It made work not fun, and yet I knew that General should be someone's dream horse. He just wasn't mine. Maybe in theory he was mine, but not in reality.


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## gottatrot

I had a cold that wiped me out for a couple of days, and I thought it would have me for longer, but I took a bunch of vitamin C and unexpectedly, it disappeared. 

We're having a very mild winter so far here in the Pac. NW. If it rains for a day or two, it will clear off for several after. We have only had a couple of mild wind storms, and the freezes have been brief and dry. 

My sister just bought a small acreage, and she is turning it into a hobby farm. It has a small barn and nice land. This week I will be going with her to look at some small Highland cows to see if they might be good for her farm. She is interested in a female and her almost yearling daughter, no horns. Apparently they are hardy and do fine in our type of weather. Her main goal is to have a cute animal that she can keep in a field of about an acre, without a ton of upkeep. This is to reduce the amount of property she needs to mow. It seems that goats would not mow grass as well, sheep would mow but require shearing and such, and I've told her mini horses would not be able to let out grazing on the acre, plus would need more frequent hoof and dental care. So she is thinking cows.
I'm advising her to keep them out with a nice shelter, and to divide the field so she can graze one side and rest the other.









Does anyone have advice on catching rabbits? She also wants a couple of rabbits (along with chickens and quail), and we have a town nearby where someone let out some domestic rabbits. They want humane solutions for them, so we thought we could catch a couple one of these days.





Hero and I are continuing our plan of moderate exercise over the winter combined with positive riding. I'm trying to keep his fitness baseline by doing walks, lunging and free lunging, while doing shorter rides that are more positive since I'm not trying to do a workout at the same time. So for example, I may take him down to the beach and lunge him, and then afterward do a 15-30 minute ride that is very casual and only focusing on him being calm and following leg, seat and rein cues. I think this is good for him, to have riding be only about training and not fitness. 
After I get my horse trailer, I plan to take him out for more fitness rides on harder surfaces like the logging roads, where he will also feel more positive about riding with friends like Nala or Nickel. 

Another thing I am doing is instead of trying to keep him from spooking at all, due to his dangerous tendency of spinning and kicking, I'm following a policy with leading of either being in right at his nose, or else far away. If I need to, for short distances I will hold him close to his nose, but then when we are walking along I get far enough in front of him that I am out of kicking range. This seems to suit him well, because then he can relax without me in his face, but also I can be safe. He's not a fast walker, and tends to lag back anyway. Different methods for different horses.

Under saddle, I'm trying to assess if he is frisky, and if he is, I'm getting the kinks out first by walking or lunging him. This is reducing the amount of spooking we're having. If he is legitimately spooking, I am just moving on and not reacting. If he's too frisky and everything is a big reaction, I'm not trying to proceed and failing to have a calm ride, but instead am getting his energy level down first. It seems to be helping our rides be much more mellow.


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## gottatrot

Horse is horse. 

Somehow I keep coming back to this. Sometimes I have been tempted to believe the next horse will not be like this, now that I've had more experiences, more knowledge, and more time training. Yet once again, horse is horse.

Here is how the story goes:
I get horse, imagine what horse might be like, try to shape horse into a more pleasant horse-like shape. Yet horse remains horse.

Whoever horse is, that is who horse remains. I can change small bits of horse, make horse somewhat prettier, a little better mannered, give horse some experiences. Yet horse is still horse.

Part of me holds onto the idea of turning horse into something horse isn't. This goes on for quite some time, many months, years even, until finally, eventually, I accept horse. Horse is horse.

To other people, once I accept horse, they see excuses. They don't realize how much time and energy I spent trying to make horse not horse before finally giving in to the idea that horse is horse. They don't understand that other people have also tried to make horse not horse, and because they did not accept horse, they did not keep horse in their life.

In order to accept that horse is horse, excuses are necessary. 
Horse is spooky. Rider does not like the big spooks horse makes. Rider worries about falling off. Horse is horse. Nothing the rider can do will make horse not horse. Horse wonders why rider cares, since rider does not fall off.

Horse rears and bucks on the lunge line. Horse changes directions and gallops forward when not asked to do so. Horse is horse. Laugh at horse.
Horse play nips whenever handler stops paying attention to horse for 5 seconds. Horse bites cell phone in back pocket. Horse drops into a roll whenever his coat gets the slightest amount of sweat, rider has to be alert or Horse will crush saddle.

Horse is happy. His stomach never hurts and his appetite knows no bounds. His food churns through his system into huge and precisely formed piles of manure. Horse has good friends to chase and run with. Horse's hind legs move better than they ever have, and his hooves are on straight with no flaring or worn down walls like they used to have. Horse is full of mischief and life. His eyes glow. Horse is horse.


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## knightrider

> To other people, once I accept horse, they see excuses. They don't realize how much time and energy I spent trying to make horse not horse before finally giving in to the idea that horse is horse. They don't understand that other people have also tried to make horse not horse, and because they did not accept horse, they did not keep horse in their life.


Oh, how I love this post! Love love love love love it. Especially the part about excuses. I used to get so tired of people scolding with me about the horse I owned in the 70's and 80's. "You need to teach her some manners!" I felt like screaming every time someone said that to me. I'd had her since she was a yearling, and she just wasn't going to change. All the other horses I had trained (and have trained since) had lovely ground manners. But horse was horse. That's who she was. She rode like a dream, packed beginners around, jumped anything she got near. Wasn't that ENOUGH?

When I retired her, I told the people where she was, that they could ride her whenever they wanted, that she was gentle, kind, and calm. They were all terrified of her and never rode her . . . because she acted so aggressive on the ground. That was just what she did. Horse is horse.
@gottatrot, I just love the things you write!


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## SueC

Love that post, @gottatrot.  And your follow-up @knightrider. :happydance: 

It's an honour to know you two. :bowwdown:


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## Knave

I love that too! How often do we get caught into that trap? I know I do.


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## egrogan

The part about laughing at things that would send other people into a tizzy is part of what helped turn things around for me this year. I love this post!


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## bsms

Bookmarked post 3261 for future reference. Like the lady who helped Trooper and Mia and who gave my youngest daughter lessons said, "_You have to love the horse for who he is, not for who he never will be._"


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Horse is horse. Sometimes I have been tempted to believe the next horse will not be like this ... Yet once again, horse is horse.





bsms said:


> "_You have to love the horse for who he is, not for who he never will be._"


And that, IMO, is the difference between someone who wants a partner versus someone who wants a servant. Some people (I hesitate to call them horsepeople) refuse to compromise, meaning the horse either goes down the road or else is subjected to training methods that result in a zombie.

I always wondered why those people bothered riding a horse when what they really want is a dirtbike..


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Bookmarked post 3261 for future reference. Like the lady who helped Trooper and Mia and who gave my youngest daughter lessons said, "_You have to love the horse for who he is, not for who he never will be._"


And you can also substitute the word "person" in here, or "dog" or "budgie" etc - it's a great general principle!


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## gottatrot

Thanks for the great comments everyone. I wish you all a Happy New Year!

I was telling my husband about Horse is horse. He said that very well may be, but a much stronger force in the world is that Cat is cat. We both agreed that Cat is much more cat than Horse is horse.


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## SueC

Ooooooh, @gottatrot, I have just the story about that!

Just So Stories, Rudyard Kipling

...also happened to be the first short story I ever read in the English language, at age 11. Total luck... amazing story amazingly told.


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## gottatrot

Great story, @SueC.

These photos and the first part of the video are from the day before yesterday. Not sure what the sustained winds were, but gusts up to 50 mph. When I got to the barn, a farrier was attempting to trim one of the older, well behaved horses, Buddy, who was acting up. At the top of the hill, one of the other normally calm horses was galloping around. So I decided it would not be a good day to ride, and instead did some ground driving with Hero. The photos are from afterward, he had some loose time in the arena with Amore but was still wearing his surcingle. Did get some blisters on my hands, partially because Hero had some big spooks (forgot to wear gloves), but also because the wind kept trying to tear the lines away from me.


















Yesterday was much more calm. First I went out for a ride with Nala's rider, we took Nala and Nickel up on the logging roads. Nickel did well again in the gag bit. It was very important to have some ability to rate his speed since we didn't know if there would be downed trees coming around blind corners at the canter. We went up to the knob, which was very steep.

































After the ride I exercised Hero and then had both horses out in the field. Amore heads straight for the swampiest area. 

















At about 1:30 you can see how Amore's luxurious coat is blowing in the wind. On the one hand, it's nice knowing an older horse is not going to be cold, the Cushing's has helped her have a nice winter coat. Still, I have to check it well and brush it to make sure there are no skin issues underneath from the wet. 
I like to make videos now and then so I can have memories of my horses at this point in their lives.


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## SueC

That was some wind, @gottatrot! :shock: Good idea to wait until the next day to ride. Days like that are better doing some indoors _hygge_, I think!










Your horses are looking well! The classical music goes nicely with them.  Hero has a completely different shape compared to when you were first working with him. So nicely all-round muscled now! 

Happy Riding! :cowboy: And a super 2020 for you, your husband and assorted four-legged creatures. :cheers:


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## gottatrot

Sorry about the fires, @SueC, sounds so bad.

Went on Dreamhorse tonight and found this guy...I would quite like to ride this trot! In two point, of course.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Went on Dreamhorse tonight and found this guy...I would quite like to ride this trot! In two point, of course.


 If you are ever over this way and have time to ride, I will be happy to put you on Phin and then jump up and down or perhaps allow the hose to gurgle in the water tank.. then you too can experience a trot like that. mg: Silly ayrab!




I think you were smart to do groundwork in conditions like those. Pushing it and having something go wrong doesn't help anyone.


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## DanteDressageNerd

gottatrot said:


> Horse is horse.
> 
> Somehow I keep coming back to this. Sometimes I have been tempted to believe the next horse will not be like this, now that I've had more experiences, more knowledge, and more time training. Yet once again, horse is horse.
> 
> Here is how the story goes:
> I get horse, imagine what horse might be like, try to shape horse into a more pleasant horse-like shape. Yet horse remains horse.
> 
> Whoever horse is, that is who horse remains. I can change small bits of horse, make horse somewhat prettier, a little better mannered, give horse some experiences. Yet horse is still horse.
> 
> Part of me holds onto the idea of turning horse into something horse isn't. This goes on for quite some time, many months, years even, until finally, eventually, I accept horse. Horse is horse.
> 
> To other people, once I accept horse, they see excuses. They don't realize how much time and energy I spent trying to make horse not horse before finally giving in to the idea that horse is horse. They don't understand that other people have also tried to make horse not horse, and because they did not accept horse, they did not keep horse in their life.
> 
> In order to accept that horse is horse, excuses are necessary.
> Horse is spooky. Rider does not like the big spooks horse makes. Rider worries about falling off. Horse is horse. Nothing the rider can do will make horse not horse. Horse wonders why rider cares, since rider does not fall off.
> 
> Horse rears and bucks on the lunge line. Horse changes directions and gallops forward when not asked to do so. Horse is horse. Laugh at horse.
> Horse play nips whenever handler stops paying attention to horse for 5 seconds. Horse bites cell phone in back pocket. Horse drops into a roll whenever his coat gets the slightest amount of sweat, rider has to be alert or Horse will crush saddle.
> 
> Horse is happy. His stomach never hurts and his appetite knows no bounds. His food churns through his system into huge and precisely formed piles of manure. Horse has good friends to chase and run with. Horse's hind legs move better than they ever have, and his hooves are on straight with no flaring or worn down walls like they used to have. Horse is full of mischief and life. His eyes glow. Horse is horse.


I just want to say I 100% agree with this. This is exactly my experience as well. I think we're the kinds of people who end up with the horses other people throw away or who need that "special" owner for that "one of a kind" sort of horse. But you know the one of a kind sort of horse has so much heart and I think it's nice to have the connection with them and part of the joy is the challenge. And the education. You learn much more from the oddball than the horse who fits the manual. These ones dont follow the rule book and you can make them "better" but can't really "fix" them. And when you finally make a break through, even if no one else appreciates what you're doing. You and the horse know and I think end up with a very deep bond.

I often think these horses end up with us because we're open to them, we invite them in. Like you I think oh well I'll find one who isnt so special. And I've produced horse that are what people want and are supposed to be but I just can't connect or really "love" the ones that are like that. I need my special cookies, they make me happy. and while Im never proud that I cant really rehome them but the love and connection is so strong. And if we dont give these horses a home and enjoy working with them, where do they end up? Abused or slaughtered. 

I think that often with Wonder because I can't make him what he isn't because horse is horse, people see excuses (unless they actually know him) then they know. Or they think it's sick that I laugh at his antics or what have you but it's like he is who he is, I cant make him something other than who he is. I either laugh and find amusement or pull all my hair out. If the aim is for control and submission, it's just never going to happen. Wonder does what Wonder wants, it's like working with a border collie with a cat brain. However he is perfect for the vet and farrier. Super easy to haul and great with needles and to clip. He also likes to greet and introduce himself to people, its' quite charming. Always best behavior in new environment. 

I generally find people who think it's excuses are often the ignorant and equally think that everything is black and white and it's all the humans fault. As if the horse were a machine that could be fixed with the right program *Eye roll*. When I hear someone who says all horse behavior is a person's causing, I just realize they're too inexperienced to know what they're talking about and subsequently ignore their self righteous, holier-than-though doctrine of stuff they know nothing about because they're condescending and dont respect people with experience.


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> If you are ever over this way and have time to ride, I will be happy to put you on Phin and then jump up and down or perhaps allow the hose to gurgle in the water tank.. then you too can experience a trot like that. mg: Silly ayrab!


Ha ha, sounds great!! If I stay on.




DanteDressageNerd said:


> I often think these horses end up with us because we're open to them, we invite them in. Like you I think oh well I'll find one who isnt so special. And I've produced horse that are what people want and are supposed to be but I just can't connect or really "love" the ones that are like that. I need my special cookies, they make me happy. and while Im never proud that I cant really rehome them but the love and connection is so strong. And if we dont give these horses a home and enjoy working with them, where do they end up? Abused or slaughtered...
> 
> ...I generally find people who think it's excuses are often the ignorant and equally think that everything is black and white and it's all the humans fault. As if the horse were a machine that could be fixed with the right program *Eye roll*. When I hear someone who says all horse behavior is a person's causing, I just realize they're too inexperienced to know what they're talking about and subsequently ignore their self righteous, holier-than-though doctrine of stuff they know nothing about because they're condescending and dont respect people with experience.


Great post, thanks for sharing!!

I may have found a solution for teaching Hero not to spin and kick when he spooks. I've been handling him cautiously in certain situations because I'm never sure if he always remember the lessons I've taught him, and although cutting way back on a behavior is wonderful, if it's dangerous enough even once can be too much.

A couple days ago I warmed Hero up on the lunge, then brought him out into a field and had a good ride. He was docile and obedient, and didn't spook at all. Leading him back toward the barn with Amore, however, I saw he was getting a bit apprehensive, looking around at the surroundings. This was a situation where I thought he might do a big spook. So I put his lead rope over Amore's back, and led him from the other side of her. Sure enough, a couple minutes later Hero spooked with a big spin and kick. However, faster than I could blink, Amore also spun and gave him the double barrels. He didn't land on her, she was too fast. She got him, but not hard enough to hurt him.
He was all flabbergasted and tried shooting forward, but the grass was slippery so his legs went out from under him and down he went. After rolling around on his side and scrambling back up, he was in a more mellow humor.

Mares are very good at teaching lessons to naughty "kids." As I've mentioned, Hero needs to be in turnout with mares, because geldings do not do well with him. The docile ones get nervous and cower in the corners, the assertive ones over react. When he was in with two geldings for several months, Hero regularly had big chunks of hide taken off from the gelding who didn't appreciate his play, and the other gelding was nervous. With mares, no one ever has a mark and everyone is happy. Amore may be 28, but she reacts to him at just the right level he responds to. The other day when I went out in the morning, the two of them were eating from the same pile of hay, their noses inches apart, so they are quite good buddies too.


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## Knave

I don’t think I’d have ever thought of that, but I think it was brilliant.  A mare can teach things much better than anyone else. My grandpa has always told me that in training teams a cranky old mare was so valuable. They would team the colts up with her and she would keep them in line as they learned. He always laughed telling me that, so I am sure he has some memories that just tickle him. He says “she would reach over and bite or threaten the colts” as he laughs because he cannot explain of course why it is so humorous.

It seems there was always a cranky mare available to them. This leaves me missing a huge part of the training of work horses and still so obviously in kindergarten. I digress though. I am impressed with your using Amore for help though! Bones is like that with misbehaving horses too. He gets so mad, and he feels so important with a human around, that if you let him scold another horse he puffs up and walks around like he’s king.


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## gottatrot

We've been having a wet January so I've been doing a lot of treating hooves to prevent thrush. Hero has no issues, but Amore is very prone to it because of her Cushing's. It looked like my frogs were getting smaller, so I decided to quite using the Thrush Buster weekly and have been just doing daily cleaning instead. The frogs are still firm without deep cracks, so that's good.

My sister bought a 4 acre property with a nice farmhouse a couple of months ago. She wants a mini farm, and we discussed what type of creature to put on her grass so she wouldn't have to mow as much. She has hatched some quail, which are entertaining little birds. She plans to have chickens soon. Also she has fenced in a big field and yesterday got two Highland cows, which are very cute. I thought you might enjoy the pictures of her little cows. They are a mother and daughter, named Ilse and Rowan.

You will notice that my sister's hair is close to the same color as the cow's! When she went to Scotland last year, she liked the Highland cows and also many people thought she was Scottish (she is mostly Swedish).


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## gottatrot

We've had a couple of storms roll through, back to back so a few days in a row of driving wind and rain. Yesterday was the first day where it cleared off some. There is a slough between the barn and the highway, and when I walked up the hill to the horse barn last night it sounded like million frogs were singing. The storms are a blessing for some creatures like frogs.

My horses are "out" 24/7, but while Amore's appetite drives her to go into the storm, Hero spends a lot of time under his shelter. Yesterday it was apparent that the change in weather meant excess energy, and when I stepped into the pasture with a carrot, Amore came galloping full tilt from the far end of the field and Hero came bucking and farting after.

Unfortunately, Amore is smart and after I used her shamelessly to teach Hero his lesson in kicking, she now refuses to play that role and will not walk unless I put him on the other side of me instead of on the other side of herself. Bummer. So we went down the hill with him dancing and snorting, and I was too short on time to ride so I "lunged" him, which meant he galloped and bucked around the fields at the end of the line until he settled enough to trot. He did not look stiff or stilted whatsoever, which made me feel great.

Next I drove out to ride Nickel, but their barn owner keeps the horses in during big storms because if the power goes out to the electric fences, the horses get out on the road. Nala's rider has a new riding buddy, a woman who rides an Icelandic. They had gone out together last week with just Nickel and he was very relaxed with the Icelandic. 

Yesterday was a different story, because the Thoroughbreds had been cooped up for days and now were out together. We began trotting up the first hill, and Nickel bucked me out of my stirrups and then began doing a hop canter, not wanting to settle into a stride. We brought the horses back down, tried again, and he kicked out toward the Icelandic who was fortunately at a good distance back. 

We walked for a while, settled the horses, and on the next hill tried trotting again, which worked for a moment and then Nickel tried taking off, was mad when I made him back down to the trot, and finally settled. After that we walked several miles, and things went well until we turned around. 
We were on a new section of trail, and Nala seemed to worry that although she was in front, if we turned again she would be in back. So she started hopping and kicking and then Nickel began sideways cantering.

My opinion is that teaching lateral work is great, but a horse well schooled in laterals also has new ways to evade his rider. For example, parts of our trails have steep banks or even cliffs, and when the horse is already on that side of the road and picks up a canter half pass that is progressing steadily toward the edge, it can be a tad unnerving. Your outside leg and rein feel rather indirect when you want to just pull the horse away from the edge, but adding inside rein on a well schooled dressage horse will increase the amount of bend rather than induce them to leap toward that rein away from the edge. Which means your hind end that is leading the way off the cliff will only fall off the edge faster.








Laughing is key, then you pretend you are not imagining the slipping feeling as the hind end is lost. And just in the Nickel of time, we managed to avoid the edges.

The Thoroughbreds never really got below a level 6/10 on that ride, not even walking home on a loose rein. Thankfully, the Icelandic gelding was rather unflappable, true to his breed. He had to progress somewhat slower anyway, since his hind hoof boot had broken recently and he was a bit tender on the gravel.

He and Nickel made quite a pair.

















Next I went to my sister's farm, got head butted by her new cow since I didn't get the hay to her fast enough, and had to swat her to let her know it wasn't cool to head butt humans. Then I backed my truck just a couple inches off her gravel drive into what happened to be grass-covered clay, and then we spent the next two hours trying to get my truck out from where it had sunk into the mud. Oops.


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## Knave

Although pretty, and I like the Icelandic, it sounds a bit frustrating.


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## bsms

Mia used to back toward steep drops. Or twist and dance both sideways and back toward them. A 5' straight drop onto jagged rock would not be cool, and many times the drops were much bigger than 5 feet! 10-20, which probably would have killed us both.

With her, jerking hard on one rein - she was SOOOO not a trained dressage horse - would spin her around to face the drop. Both eyes pointed that way, she'd freeze. "_Who put THAT there?!_" I'm convinced that when she got excited, her peripheral vision shut down and all she thought about was the boogey man she was looking for, or perhaps her frustration with me.

Bandit did that one time, shortly after I got him. Danced next to a 20' drop, finishing with his hind foot 6" from the edge. He hasn't done it since. But Bandit being Bandit, he might have stopped 6 inches from the edge BECAUSE it was 6 inches from the edge, and not because he had lost awareness.

Haven't asked about Mia for a long time now. Don't really want to. Good news would be good news, but bad news would be....BAD. So I don't ask any more. But really...I kind of suspected if we kept riding long enough, one day she'd lose her mind and take us over an edge. I don't know how she is doing this year, but at least she has been able to live in open country. For all I know, if I'd kept her, she could have killed us both several years ago.

Very sweet horse. Wonderful intentions. But when her mind shut down, she was *scary*. Bandit may get annoyed at me at times, or be a handful for a few minutes, but his mind NEVER shuts down! I'm sooooo much safer on Bandit!

PS: Over the last 10 years, I've largely concluded this is NOT a good place to have and own horses. There are decent places 5-10 miles from here, but this alluvial fan area I ride in is just not suitable for letting a horse go out and run. In retrospect, I think they NEED that run time - at least when younger - and don't do as well.

Or maybe it is breed. Trooper and Cowboy honestly don't show any great need to get out and RUN. Mia did. Bandit is in between. This really isn't a fair place to own a horse who craves running. :shrug:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Mia used to back toward steep drops. Or twist and dance both sideways and back toward them. A 5' straight drop onto jagged rock would not be cool, and many times the drops were much bigger than 5 feet! 10-20, which probably would have killed us both.
> 
> With her, jerking hard on one rein - she was SOOOO not a trained dressage horse - would spin her around to face the drop. Both eyes pointed that way, she'd freeze. "_Who put THAT there?!_" I'm convinced that when she got excited, her peripheral vision shut down and all she thought about was the boogey man she was looking for, or perhaps her frustration with me.


I am pretty sure many horses would go over a drop, and I don't trust at all that they'll decide not to - especially when going backwards!

Some may think it sounds too coincidental that so many horses I ride end up being less than calm rides. Not that I feel the need to justify myself (I've tested myself in many ways over the years to convince myself it is not my riding, and is in fact certain horses), but just for information in case it helps people understand that there are actually quite a lot of horses out there like this...

When Nala's rider posts our ride photos on FB, some who knew Nickel in his past mention things like "it's so good to see he has found a place where he can relax," and "nice to see him looking happy," etc. There is inference that he has in fact been excitable and difficult, and that finding a right home was not a given. This was something I suspected...a big TB, age 12, with years of training in jumping and dressage, that should not be an inexpensive horse. The first thought was a hidden unsoundness, but he is very sound. So I suspected there had to be some issue with temperament and managing the horse.

He is not as innately hot as Nala, and calms rapidly at times. He is also a big horse when he gets strong or excited. I do think he has found the right home with Nala's rider, who can appreciate him and also find others to ride him who can handle him. She would like more of these horses, LOL. I mentioned to her one I heard of on the forum that was doing a slightly lesser version of Nala's hop/leap into space that she does when she gets excited, and she thought we should offer $500. :smile::smile:


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## bsms

My theory on drops, cactus and other rough terrain:

If possible, horses should be turned loose on 100+ acres of rough terrain typical of the local area and left for a few weeks. Maybe a few months. If they survive, they will be aware of rocks, or cactus, or fallen timber, steep drops, soft ground, etc. 

I think one of the best things my rancher friend did with the horses he raised was let the foals spend 2+ years following their mama loose while mama worked sheep - in the mountains, deserts, etc. By the time they needed to be ridden, they already knew how to safely pick their way across deadfalls, or cross streams, or climb up/down steep terrain. They KNEW about hazards and how to deal with them.

If I could have turned Mia loose for a few months on a few hundred acres of Sonoran desert, she'd have either died or learned. I suspect one of the best things her new home gave her was the chance to roam loose with a stallion-led herd on thousands of acres, surrounded by mares who knew what they were doing.

Unfortunately, I own two acres, my horses live in a corral and very few horses today have ever roamed freely or tagged along with mama while growing up. Pity. I think we'd have much better horses if they did!

And I'd bet money that BEING mama and leading her babies around with her did wonders for Mia's mind.


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## knightrider

> I am pretty sure many horses would go over a drop, and I don't trust at all that they'll decide not to - especially when going backwards!


That reminds me of a horse I had when I was in my early 20's. I had bought him as an unbroken two year old and started him myself. He was very talented, but half thoroughbred, and excitable. When he got wound up, he would rear at times. It wasn't much, and it wasn't bad.

I had him out foxhunting, and the master had taken us to a high hill overlooking a gravel pit. It was about 30 feet straight down. We had been galloping and jumping, and suddenly, a halt to watch for the fox and hounds. My young half thoroughbred wasn't happy about that halt and began rearing and rearing, getting closer and closer to that thirty foot drop. I suddenly yelled, "I'm not going down there!" and leaped off as my horse went plunging down the drop. (It was about as steep as the Snowy River drop). Happily, he wasn't hurt. I threaded my way down a safer way, retrieved him, and finished the hunt. I got a lot of ribbing and joshing about my statement and quick dismount.


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## bsms

^^ If it had happened to me, @knightrider, the first step would have been to find a steam and clean my britches....:chicken1:


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> ...I suddenly yelled, "I'm not going down there!" and leaped off as my horse went plunging down the drop. (It was about as steep as the Snowy River drop). Happily, he wasn't hurt. I threaded my way down a safer way, retrieved him, and finished the hunt. I got a lot of ribbing and joshing about my statement and quick dismount.


That is some great riding! I'm guessing that's exactly what I would have said. I wish that someday we could take a ride together!


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## Knave

My horse General was always trying to drop his hind end off of cat-trails. It was frustrating and scary, and no one could handle it well. If you were stuck on a steep cat-trail the only solution was to trot. 

Anyways, I always compared him to this horse I knew in high school. One of the differences between the two of them was that the other horse, Frisky, could go anywhere and be trusted. I was talking to the girl who rode him and I made the comparison and included the difference. She laughed and told me a story. She said that her dad was using him as a pack horse when he was three because he wouldn’t watch his feet, and he fell off a mountain. He rolled down the whole way, her father was sure he would be dead, but he stood, shook, and managed to make his way back up the mountain. He never dropped a leg off a cat-trail again.

My father had a mare that would do the same, so he let her fall on a spot that wasn’t so terrible, stepping off the upside as she fell. It cured the mare. I never had the nerve myself. I would have tried the packhorse idea, but I didn’t have the opportunity.


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> ...He rolled down the whole way, her father was sure he would be dead, but he stood, shook, and managed to make his way back up the mountain. He never dropped a leg off a cat-trail again.
> 
> My father had a mare that would do the same, so he let her fall on a spot that wasn’t so terrible, stepping off the upside as she fell. It cured the mare. I never had the nerve myself. I would have tried the packhorse idea, but I didn’t have the opportunity.


Interesting idea to let the horses learn on their own. I know part of the issue is that their vision doesn't seem to differentiate as well as ours to differences in height in terrain. I've seen this many times with horses on the beach. They always think at first that the lines in the sand are drop offs. So they learn they can just ignore all those optical illusions, and then they charge through it all. Which is good, except if there really is a drop, they will ignore that too and trip themselves. I remember how one day I was riding Halla and a storm had strewn all kinds of sticks and seaweed onto the beach, and she started off ignoring it all and stumbling around tripping, thinking it was all just lines in the sand.

So we both ask horses to ignore changes in terrain, and also to pay attention to them. Must be confusing. Well, Amore has rolled and somersaulted down hills and up the other side even, LOL. She didn't learn anything from it, but she's a different kind of horse. 
*****************************************************************************************

I'm looking and looking at horse trailers online. What I am leaning toward is buying a new one with the thought that 
a) I have had horses for about 20 years with no trailer, and therefore have saved oodles of money on gas, maintenance and such so _deserve_ a new one (ha ha) and 
b) Since everything rusts and corrodes here, might as well start out with new metal, tires and parts since it will begin to degrade right away.

Several things I am keeping in mind:
Hero cannot (or believes he cannot) back out of a trailer, so has to be able to turn around. Amore is almost 29 and I have no idea of what horse will follow her, but that potential could include very big or very claustrophobic. 

This one is cheaper if I decided to go with a slant load. Something I don't like is the swing out saddle racks. No one I know swings theirs out, because that gets too awkward when saddles are loaded on. So we always struggle our way in past the saddles that are pretty much blocking the doorway. But I do like the drop down windows, and this is quite a tall trailer.
https://www.double-j.com/2020-thuro-bilt-liberty-7-6-tall-warmblood-stall-2-horse-trailer-large-stalls-BBLh%7C4d.html

But this is the one I really want, a straight load with a ramp, and a tack room with saddle racks that don't block the door. Is that worth $3,500 more? 
https://www.double-j.com/2020-trails-west-royale-plus-2-horse-trailer-convenience-package-wheel-upgrade-rubber-floor-mats-in-tack-room--6k0h%7C4d.html


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## Knave

I think it’s worth not loading past that tack room! I only loaded in one once, when I went with a friend and I took a baby Bones to a lesson type thing with her. It made Bones and I super uncomfortable, but it was doable. Now, a Cash would be different. I don’t know if he would fit. What would happen if the next horse was a massive beast like him? Plus the whole set up feels uncomfortable.


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## gottatrot

Still thinking about the horse trailer, but hoping to come to a decision soon.

It has been so very rainy here (not unusual for winter), with it only stopping for several hours every several days, here and there. I had to quickly order a new rain sheet for Amore, since her waterproofing failed. I know you supposedly can spray them again, but it was a cheap one and is a couple years old, so she deserves a new one from Schneider's. I still feel a little guilty since I had bought her that cheap one because it was late in the season and it was the only one I could find in purple. She just has to match! 
They do have shelters, but she stays out in the rain and gets soaked a lot of the time. Hero has a stronger self-coddling instinct. 

Hero is just a touch over his perfect weight at the moment. I'm undecided about cutting back some on his feed. It makes his poor skinny neck look nicer, that added padding. For sure I won't let him gain any more, but I might wait to see if he stays at this weight.

I'm understanding why some people like to lunge before riding. Hero certainly gets out some of the spooks, bucks, rears, and silly stuff on the line, which makes riding him a calm affair. The last several rides he has been a monster before hand, with leading and lunging both a display of him leaping and bucking all over the place. But after I survive that, he acts sweet and attentive during the ride.

I haven't been able to get online as often. We lost our internet service and have not found a good replacement other than our phones, which is slow. The good news is we've been able to do a lot more reading, which is healthy.

My sister had a guy put up the fencing for her cows, and they got out twice last week. Imagining them to be some super houdini cows, I told her to buy some electric fencing and I would help her put it up. Our schedules were such that we had to meet at 5 p.m., at which point I walked her fence line and told her what was amazing was that her cows were staying in most of the time! The guy had put up six foot tall field fencing with T-posts, which should have been great. Except it had no tension and there were only two clips per post, and they weren't even clamped shut. So the cows could just put their heads under, pop off the clips and walk out. !!!

The guy also built her a very nice shelter, and some wood fencing, but did not have a clue about wire fencing. Of course it was raining steadily, and dark, but I spent four hours unclipping her fencing, pulling it taught, using heavy gauge wire to attach it to the posts in a few places, and adding tension so they could not get their noses underneath. My rain gear lasted about three hours before I was truly wet, thankfully. My sister was very grateful and says that I get all the work of a farm without having one myself. If they still test the fencing, we can add electric too.

It was worth it for the little cows - can't have them getting out on the road.
They have the flag of Scotland on their shelter, LOL.


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## egrogan

@*gottatrot* , those cows are just too much in their little shed. The flag, ha! I empathize with you on the internet. We live on the other side of a very popular ski mountain, and all winter every weekend from about noon on Friday until late Sunday night, our internet is almost non-existent because of all the tourists sucking up the wifi. We have no wired broadband solution to our house, so I have to rely on my phone as a hotspot and it's highly ineffective. Very frustrating. I'm actually shocked it's working at all this morning! But, we had a lot of snow this weekend so maybe the touristas are actually out on the mountain instead of sitting in the lodge SnapChatting or Youtubing or TikTocking or whatever it is they do to prove to people back in Connecticut that they went to Vermont to "ski" (aka, sit in the lodge and drink all weekend) :rofl: :hide:

Can't wait to see what you do with your trailer purchase. We are thinking late summer/early fall we'll finally be on the market for one too.


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> Can't wait to see what you do with your trailer purchase. We are thinking late summer/early fall we'll finally be on the market for one too.


Thanks! I'll let you know how it goes.

I got a book last week called _Revolutionize your Riding_ by Susan McBane. It's pretty good and I agree with most of it. Mainly applies to english riding and is about sitting with a following seat, using the aids lightly and not hindering the horse.
Here is a quote I particularly liked:


> ...We have known for many years that a horse cannot see straight in front of him when his nose is on or behind the vertical because of how his eyes are made and positioned and how they work. Scientific research has proved this indisputably, and work on the subject continues. The horse needs to raise his head and extend (or poke) his nose somewhat in order to see objects that are approaching him from the front, or which he is approaching - like fences. Even if fences are not involved, it cannot be called logical, fair or even safe riding to prevent him from seeing where he is being asked to go. If his head is held in by the rider, he can only see the ground in front of him for a very few metres, not up ahead. In the field, in play or when cavorting around feeling good, horses will toss their heads and move for a very few strides or seconds with their chins tucked in like this. This is their choice. To force them to go like this during work, whatever their sport or discipline, when they surely need all their faculties, is both inexcusable and unforgivable...
> 
> ...It is not at all necessary to ride or train horses in this bullying way in order to control them, under most normal circumstances, or to get them to 'go correctly' and it was not common practice a generation ago. In fact, in the nose-tucked-in-posture they are not going correctly. All the most respected texts on riding over the ages and right up to the present day state clearly that the horse must work with his poll as the highest point of the neck (a possible exception being stallions with a 'crest' to their necks) and with the front of his face not behind the vertical. Unfortunately, these stipulations are frequently ignored to the detriment of the horse...


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## Hondo

I have read that a horse has eyes that have a lens that is similar to the progressive lens used in some bifocal glasses where the head in tilted until the focal length becomes matched with the object being viewed. Can be handy when looking at a distant computer and then a close up book for some people with rigid lens.


So based on this the angle of a horse's head varies by the distant of the object being viewed. Since I first read this, (a long time ago), Hondo's head movements seem to reflect this.


Found this: "Horses do not focus their eyes the way we do. Have you ever seen a horse raising and lowering its head as it looks at an object? It does that to adjust the focal length, moving until the object comes into focus on its retina.Horse Vision


But when reading the Merck Manual the discussion does not mention this but rather describes the lens as functioning the same as in humans.


The progressive lens explanation, if true, sure seems to match what the horse does with it's head.


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## Knave

I tend towards two different objectives. I try and teach my horses to come into different frames that are acceptable for anything I would like to pursue with that horse. That includes the competitive type movements. This is done mostly in an arena setting, and it in my opinion offers a connection between myself and the horse that can be made whenever needed. It is a sort of understanding I ask him to find in me. Like, when I do this, this is what I mean.

Yet, the rest of the time I let him ask me for an understanding. He can carry himself however he pleases, and I strive towards zero pressure. Any horse with time on him will see the cows you are headed to. He has a general idea of the job. However he wants to accomplish it is usually acceptable to me. So, it is me who says “those are the cows we need to get,” or “this is the direction we are headed and the amount of hurry we are in” and he can carry his head and back upside down for all I care. Unless it is particularly steep or there is some sort of danger, he can step wherever he pleases too as long as it’s the correct general direction. 

The idea of him knowing how to follow exact directions willingly can become relevant at work too. Maybe there is a hidden wire and he needs to immediately pick himself up in a certain way to keep us both safe. He needs to trust that when I give him a direction it is important to quickly and softly comply.

ETA: I say this in response because as I read about the head carriage described I was thinking of my horses. Zeus would carry himself in a style more like described, but Cash carries his head overly low. It is excessive and I don’t particularly enjoy it because my inclination is that I want him to pick his head up and look where he is going as described. However, I don’t think micromanaging is really fair. If he wants his head down he probably has his own reasoning.


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## Hondo

As in..................


I point where his nose goes,
He fills in the rest.


(two lines from a song i know)


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## gottatrot

Good post, @Knave. 

On Monday I rode my friend's horse Cass, who is the big black gelding in this photo:








He is a very calm horse, and I thought I would have proof of how it's not "just me" that makes horses excited or antsy.
This I was going to get on video, except DH couldn't find the screw to attach the camera to the chest mount, and when I arrived to meet my friend, she apologized because she'd had Cass out the day before and had him going a bit, so he was not actually very calm that day.

So he did jig a bit, and spooked some, mostly because my friend's new mini foal runs loose in the dunes at the beach with us, and she kept galloping by us, which spooked the horse my friend was riding and made mine jump too. Cass is a very willing and gentle horse though, and it was a great ride. Plus Tovi the mini had us laughing the whole time.









In my defense, I rode Hero the next day (Tuesday), and he was extremely calm. :smile:

My friend found a very nice used trailer for me online a few hours away, but discussing it with DH, it sounds like he would rather that I paid a little more and got a new trailer with everything I want plus without rust or aging issue to start out. The used trailer looks great but is 20 years old. DH feels better if there is some structure inside and a steel frame, but an aluminum skin since everything rusts here. He also prefers that the escape doors have a safety bar. 
I've read that it's better to have a wood floor rather than aluminum, because it absorbs the road friction better. We are thinking about going to get this trailer next week:
https://www.double-j.com/2020-trails-west-royale-plus-2-horse-trailer-convenience-package-wheel-upgrade-rubber-floor-mats-in-tack-room--6k0h%7C4d.html
The only things it doesn't have that I want are a bench in the tack room that also holds water, and an electric tongue jack, but I can buy those later.


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## gottatrot

Forgot to mention:

I've been considering an amino acid supplement for Hero. My friend has a Canadian Warmblood with DSLD, and she posted the other day on FB about how a certain AA supplement called Equinety has made a huge difference for her horse. He's sound at 20 after a couple of ligament injuries that led to the DSLD diagnosis, and she has been riding him quite a bit. 

https://www.teamequinety.com/

I'm starting Hero on it, to see if it makes any difference. He is doing so well that I want to try taking him off the daily Equioxx he's been on for over a year. My thought is that if I can trailer him out for some hill work on the logging roads and to build even a little more muscle, I will feel comfortable trying him off the Equioxx. First I will go down to a half pill a day to see how that goes.


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## gottatrot

Here I am on Cass with Tovi. That little horse, only 9 months old is already trying to boss the bigger boys. She kept stopping and putting her butt in front of Cass to try to make us slow down so she could eat more grass.
Then we would have to go around her. You can certainly see the Friesian posture in Cass, right?








I am riding all of these big horses right now...still have a great appreciation for the smaller ones like Arabs and Morgans.
Another friend is starting a lovely big Mustang, he reminds me a little bit of @Knave's horse. His name is Loki. I think he looks like a sturdy and well built mount for her, and they say he has a great temperament.


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## SueC

Those cows, @gottatrot! 



egrogan said:


> We live on the other side of a very popular ski mountain, and all winter every weekend from about noon on Friday until late Sunday night, our internet is almost non-existent because of all the tourists sucking up the wifi. We have no wired broadband solution to our house, so I have to rely on my phone as a hotspot and it's highly ineffective. Very frustrating. I'm actually shocked it's working at all this morning! *But, we had a lot of snow this weekend so maybe the touristas are actually out on the mountain instead of sitting in the lodge SnapChatting or Youtubing or TikTocking or whatever it is they do to prove to people back in Connecticut that they went to Vermont to "ski" (aka, sit in the lodge and drink all weekend) :rofl: :hide:*


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking about the concept of giving an anxious horse a loose rein, giving a horse more slack if they are nervous, etc.

Essentially, I believe what this is doing is teaching the horse to calm himself. When a horse learns to calm himself rather than depend on the rider or handler, he can develop better coping mechanisms. 

That being said, I want a horse to have both skills, the ability to calm himself down on his own, and also the ability to allow tension on the reins, with steering and input on the pace from the rider without becoming more nervous or upset. 

The reason for this is that while it is ideal for a horse to be able to calm himself, there may be circumstances that the horse finds so unusual that he loses the ability to calm himself. For example, if he steps on a wasp nest while being ridden, or if he is dropped off in the middle of nowhere (in his mind) and then comes upon a group of strange and potentially hostile horses. In those times, the horse needs to be able to listen to the rider at least somewhat without getting more upset than from what is being caused by the external stimuli already happening.

With Hero, I am working on having him lead calmly for short periods of time, with a short lead rope. This tends to make him want to fidget and chomp his teeth, so I have him do it for as long as he can be calm, and then I go back to sending him out to work on calming himself down. When he wants to focus on me or Amore and swing his head or run toward us, I send him out and make him calm down without using us as an outlet/crutch for his emotions. It does seem to be helping him, and sometimes I also just take him for a short trot next to me or around me if he gets bouncy or starts spooking at things. 

This is an essential skill, I think, for a horse to learn to calm himself, and "sending" the reins or the lead rope to the horse instead of pulling back seems to help them learn this. 
And also it is essential to be able to slow down when the handler tightens the lead or reins, and not get upset by that request.


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## knightrider

I just can hardly wait until you've had Hero long enough to write a book about him. I really enjoy reading your posts and thoughts about working with horses.


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## gottatrot

^^^^Aw, thanks!!
Not sure if I'll ever get the "better" of Hero, ha ha. He hates head lamp lights, and so I have been tolerating some general grumpiness about it when I approach. Tonight, however, he swung his hind end around, and then he humped his butt up along with a hoof like "I could kick you." 

I discovered something useful, which is that a body brush with a wooden base can be thrown effectively toward an offending rump, and be taken as a reprimand for kicking/threatening without having to approach said rump that could kick the snot out of you. The ability to throw gives us a level up from those creatures without hands...something Hero then had to take into consideration.
It did take two throws of the brush before Hero assumed a more appropriate posture and let me walk around with the light without protesting.


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## Hondo

Are you still using the red lamp?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Are you still using the red lamp?


I couldn't see very well with it.


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## Hondo

I know. But my little house has 3.5 Watt led bulbs in all the lamps. My eyes are very light sensitive. I'm half blind outside without a full brimmed hat. Light is very uncomfortable to my eyes. I keep the house at the level of candles.


Maybe more red light so you can see with it? They make red led lamp bulbs also. I use green for my outside lights.


Red lamps are used (or were) on ships for going outside and inside during the dark for better visibility when no lights were allowed outside.


It's all for the horse?


Edit: I have complained strongly to people looking at me with headlamps on. Never have threatened kicking but the thought may have crossed my mind a time or two.


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## Hondo

Wanted to share another thought. Maybe Hero was attempting to place his blind spot between the light and his eyes like someone putting their hand up to shade their eyes?


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## phantomhorse13

I wonder if a green light would help you see better but be less worrisome to Hero? Green supposedly preserves night vision as well.

Regardless, threatening to kick is not ok whatever color light you happen to have!


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## Hondo

I really like my outside green lights. It does seem that I can see well without being blinded by the light. I do like them much better than red. Didn't know they preserved night vision but it does seem so. Hopefully Hero was just making awkward moves in trying to position his blind spot.


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## gottatrot

That's an interesting thought about the blind spot.

Probably, I do a lot of ducking when other people shine their lights in my eyes. I don't hit them for doing it though, ha ha. Trying to be sympathetic to my horse but also sometimes I have to put a blanket on or clean out hooves in a hurry on my way to work, so need the light.

That being said, the time change here is coming in several days, and after that I shouldn't have to worry about it being dark on my way to work when I stop at the barn. It's quite possible Hero will be in another barn next winter as well, if we move somewhere, and probably it might be somewhere with overhead lighting, so my poor horse won't have to deal with the head lamps anymore.


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## Hondo

Another suggestions even. I have a 3 watt led lithium ion rechargeable spot light from Harbor Freight-$14. It lasts a really long time and recharges quickly.



I have set it up on something in my outdoor canopy/shed with the beam shining on the ceiling. There is ample light reflecting off the ceiling to allow me to see very well. And it's soft light being reflected.


This winter when the electricity was off for an extended time it was used as a house lamp. Worked very well.


If it does work out that you don't have barn lighting in the future, might think about trying that. When actually working on a hoof or whatnot, the head lamp could be turned on just for those things and then turned off.


Hero would then be licking your face rather than turning his bum toward you. I'm visualizing a cartoon about that.


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## Knave

The General was much like that. He hated lights, and it was hard to work around. We start a large majority of our work days in the dark. I think my dad used the word “twitterpated,” although I thought that meant “in love” to describe how he acted. Now that word has two definitions. Lol

Anyways, I tried to avoid lights with him, which was easy enough for me because I see pretty well in the dark. Yet, I couldn’t control other people’s lights. Even when they drove in with the trailer the headlights would cause him to throw a fit. 

I particularly remember one morning with him. General was 3. My grandpa was still riding then, and it had rained heavy. We couldn’t take the trailers in, so we trotted the last several miles in to where we needed to be for work. We had to get there in the dark, so it was pitch black with no helping stars from the storm. Horses were slipping on the mud, and grandpa’s mare went down. It was so scary. General was slipping, and grandpa had a flashlight. He constantly turned around to check on us behind him and he would shine that stupid light right at me.

It was quick, the way he’d turn and turn back, and General wanted to blow up every time! Grandpa didn’t know, and because no one hears well in my family by that age I didn’t try any tell him. General would take one jump and then slip down on the road. I was ready to throw that **** light into the mud by the time we got there!


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## gottatrot

It's a little sad, Nala and Nickel's owner is putting Nickel up for sale. I'm not sure of all the reasons...I think she was looking for a horse that was not as hot so she could put other riders on, and maybe her barn on her new property has not gone up as quickly as expected and she has been paying to board two horses. Anyway, I've had a great time riding him. She offered him to me, but for me putting Amore "out to pasture" is not an option, I feel at her age she will need more watching and frequent checks rather than less. In my experience, as horses age they get more expensive, not less.

I was trying to think back to remember if Hero has learned more language and is more expressive now, or if I just could not read him as well. Today when I went to see him after being away for several days, he was giving me some very pleased facial expressions as I was scratching him. Either in the past he had not learned pleasant facial expressions, or he was always feeling grumpy, or I was unable to read them. But I think after all they have changed some, because I don't think I would have ever misinterpreted his face today, with ears flopping to the side, soft eyes and lips flapping and teeth chomping.

Even so, I have learned to differentiate between his variations of chomping his teeth. He will begin to present his head and act bitey when he is feeling playful, anxious/nervous/upset, angry, or happy and calm. It's one of his main ways of expressing himself. There is a difference, though, because if he is nervous and anxious his head bobs or swings and the chomping makes his teeth click. If he is angry he just looks tense with ears back, and bares the teeth, but doesn't click them. When he is goofy or playful, he'll also swing his head toward you and he opens his mouth like he's going to bite, but doesn't close it. And when he is just showing reciprocal affection he chomps or chews with his mouth mostly closed, and a happy face. 

It's a different thing with Hero, because for a lot of horses you wouldn't want to reward or would reprimand an open mouth or chomping teeth, but he has learned he is not supposed to lay the teeth into a person, and sometimes he is being happy and playful, so I do scratch him and tell him pleasant things even when his chompers are showing. 
*****************************************************************
I had an interesting trip down the coast this week. We are looking into some of the towns down south and visited one that did not seem very interesting but had a very nice horse boarding facility. The first impression was so great, it made me wonder if somehow I could ignore everything else that was negative about the area just because I'd like to board at a facility like that. :smile:

After we left, I thought more about it all and realized it probably would have turned out to be a terrible place to keep the horses. What was great: it was secluded, off a quiet rural road, then up a driveway that was about a half mile long. The entire 200 acres or so were fenced, and the driveway gated. Then each individual huge pasture was also fenced with 6 foot tall board fencing plus small mesh wire. Even small critters would have had a difficult time getting into the pastures. 

The pastures only had 3 horses each, and the barn was immaculate. There were only 11 horses on the property. Every large stall had a large outdoor run. There was a huge indoor arena with great footing, and a huge outdoor arena with great footing, a round pen, and trails all around the property. It also was only about 5 miles from the beach and a person could actually ride over the mountain trails to the beach if they wished. They had top quality orchard grass hay.

Sounds great, right? Except I think it would not have been a relaxing place for me. Horses were not allowed to be turned loose in the indoor or outdoor arena, because they were not allowed to roll. I'm pretty sure that would be impossible for me to comply with, because you simply cannot stop Hero from rolling when he wants to. This rule was so important that they did not put a gate on the arenas, to ensure that horses were not loose. To me that seems a little extreme. 

There were other signs that things had to be perfect. The barn aisles did not have any spots at all, which I can understand they were blown out and swept but it made me wonder if they actually washed them. Every halter was hung the same way, every blanket also. The arena footing was as smooth as glass, even to the edges. I like things nice and clean, but it made me wonder if boarders were allowed to actually use the place. 

The other thing was that there were open pastures, and the horses were rotated around, so there was lush grass everywhere. Great, but also the horses were fed outdoors in feeders, flakes of that fine orchard hay twice daily. As you might have guessed, all the horses looked very fat, coming out of winter. 

So in the end, I don't think I am missing out after all, not being able to board there...


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## Knave

You probably are not missing out. A little bit of mess goes towards a lot of fun. Lol. I like things tidy enough, but I worked once at an Arabian ranch. It had passed its heyday, but it was still the place for some spectacular horses and beautiful scenery. 

I truly loved it, but the obsessiveness was draining. The grass was mowed in a pattern, there was not a piece of poop to be seen, and everything was repainted yearly. The tack was done weekly and so was all black in color from so much oil. One Sunday I did not pick up the poop from my dog (in my own yard mind you), because I was going out after completing the daily chores. I was in so much trouble! 

It is best to be somewhere with a little leeway.


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## Dragoon

These places sound like they are designed around a human's idea of horses...good thing Gotta looks at them from her horses' needs.

That said, my gelding is kinda a neat freak as well. He is always! clean. He must search out the driest place to roll, because I've never seen him plastered with mud in seven years. The horses in with him come in muddy, but he prances in clean. His stall is always the neatest, poop piled in the far corner. And if there's poop in the arena, he will leap sideways to avoid stepping in it. 
These places would love him.


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## egrogan

I often wonder how many people it requires to keep a horse farm completely free of poo. Like you see in pictures of the beautiful Thoroughbred stud farms in Kentucky. It must require a small army. I am mildly obsessed with poo picking right now because the spring melt has taken the snow away and re-exposed the layer of pure ice that is holding about a month worth of poo in place. It is disgusting to look at, but short of going out with a blow torch to melt it, I just have to wait for it to unfreeze to clean it up. I'm imagining a farm where someone is sitting in the pasture in a folding chair, reading a book and waiting for a horse to go to the bathroom to immediately whisk away the mess...


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## Knave

Lol @egrogan ! Actually we only cleaned poop once a day in the pastures, but because they were large pastures each with two horses, once daily left it seeming sparkling clean. In wintertime we took bars with us, and we barred the frozen poop off the ground.

My boss and I got along wonderfully, so we would visit as we broke poop and were great friends. It definitely took a couple hours each morning of poop collection before we rode. If we had horses in the stalls it took longer. That was cleaned twice a day and the arena cleaned by use. Alleyways and the like were cleaned immediately.


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## SueC

I'm so glad we have dung beetles! I never pick up manure in the pastures unless I want it for compost or sheet mulching, or if it's in a particularly bad spot. Because there's so much area and there's the dung beetles most of summer, manure has not been a problem for pasture management etc. And I'm thinking of all the books I get to read because I don't have OCD!

Diogenes had the right idea - living in a barrel and reading his books! 










That is a very cute mini youngster, @gottatrot! :smile:


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## gottatrot

Having dung beetles must be nice. :smile:

Had to go help my sister put together some more quail cages this week. Once her hatched quail hit maturity it turned out she had 10 out of 15 that were male...bummer. The second they become mature, the males immediately begin trying to kill each other. So she had to have 10 separate cages in order to keep them from getting beat up.

The good news is that her Highland cows have fattened up nicely and are getting very tame. They stand at the fence and stick their tongues out, which means you are supposed to go and feed them a sleeve of saltine crackers. They also follow people around in the field begging to be brushed. 

We are getting serious about moving to a less congested area, which means I will need to put off getting a horse trailer. I'm a bit nervous about finding new horse boarding. So far it seems I will have to drive an hour from the town we are moving to in order to find quality boarding. My guess is there are private people I may get to know after living in the area, but inquiries to the horse groups online have not brought up anything yet. Seeing the horses only two or three times a week may be a sacrifice I have to make, at least temporarily. In my opinion it might be better having them in a nicer place and seeing them less vs having them in a crummy place and checking on them more. 

I realized something this week, quite amazing. When I took Hero out, groomed him and worked him, I realized: If I went to go see Hero right now, as a potential horse to buy, I think I actually would buy him. That might sound strange, but I remember very well going to look at him with Nala's owner and he had obvious reasons why I would not have purchased him. As a free horse for her boyfriend, he seemed an acceptable risk. The vet said he would be OK for trail riding. He had his hunter's bump, uneven hooves, dragged his hind legs at the walk, a skinny throatlatch, and turned out right front. He did not look like he had much athletic potential.

Yesterday when I was lunging Hero, he was springing off his hind legs at the trot, and I could not have seen that he touched down his hind toes without knowing when and where to stare. I am certain I would not have been able to pick it up if looking at a new horse for sale. He didn't drag his hinds at the walk at all. Riding him around a field, he had a couple small spooks, but I would not have guessed he bucked and reared sometimes. His hunter's bump is buried under rump muscle, there is no way to know about his past stifle issues, his hooves have straightened out, the turn on the right front is so slight you can barely see it and his neck has thickened. 
All in all, I would have thought him a valid purchase, if I looked at him yesterday and did not know all of his past. 

Not only that, he's getting more and more forward, sometimes just self-lunging himself rather than needing to be coaxed to move. I'll just stand in the middle and he'll trot prance and snort and arch his neck for five minutes. I'm beginning to think he may turn into a real athlete yet. I have cut him down to only half a pain pill (Equioxx), and may take him off it soon. It appears the amino acid supplement (Equinety) may be pushing him even farther along in muscle development, helping him feel even better.
Love this guy, it has been worth the effort so far.


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## Hondo

As Hondo and I rested under a small tree while riding the North fence line.........


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## gottatrot

Here is a video from several days ago featuring Hero being lunged and ridden a bit.
I think he is moving well.

@SueC, Amore pops up here and there and hopefully you can see how her winter coat looks and her topline, general weight and such. 






A couple of things about Covid: I saw a very old man being escorted out of the grocery store because he was coughing. I just hoped they made sure he got everything he needed first. 

People seem to be afraid of nurses. Apparently a nurse went to the store on her way to work wearing her scrubs and someone hit her because they were afraid she had the virus. My uncle who is a nurse, thought maybe I shouldn't visit my parents in case I had been exposed. My hands will be clean and I will not be coughing or sneezing on my parents, or standing near them while speaking loudly enough to spray saliva. So it is a moot point.


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## SueC

It makes me feel so discouraged that people have such ugly reactions. Hitting a nurse in a shop. What's the world coming to? And why do we have to share it with abusive people like that?

Amore is looking fine! As is Hero, obviously. Interesting to look at a comparison Cushings horse!


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> It makes me feel so discouraged that people have such ugly reactions. Hitting a nurse in a shop. What's the world coming to? And why do we have to share it with abusive people like that?



Rather than think the person was just basically mean, I would tend to think the person must be somewhat mentally unstable. Plus, there are many people even in the remote area where I live that are scared to death of C-19.


So if the offending person was scared and felt the nurse had left the hospital in the same attire the nurse had perhaps used in proximity of a C-19 case, then the person may well have fallen off the end of the proverbial rocker.


Of course who knows whether the nurse was going or coming. For myself, I assume than any nurse coming in proximity of known C-19 would be sterilized or use a change of scrubs before leaving for home.


But someone that is already borderline, might not reason that out.


It is a bit of a scary time. 



I will be purchasing a copper fitting to carry in my pocket at my next hardware visit.




Just offering another perspective from what I read.


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## gottatrot

After reading a bbc article on covid I have been doing more reading. It said that Italy is currently reporting all deaths in hospitals with coronavirus cases as covid deaths. What??

I am finding that my relatives are beginning to feel very stressed so I have been trying to bring some perspective. 
We have had 650 or so deaths in the US from covid and extreme measures to control it. 
This year we have had around 23,000 deaths from flu including 149 children and 5 children in the past couple weeks. Our normal flu season deaths are around 3,800 a month.

Covid is not the flu but we are a large country and a lot of people die each year normally. Especially from respiratory viruses. It may be true that with a novel virus we have no immunity. The flu virus mutates each year to confound our vaccines and all the ventilator cases I had this year had been vaccinated.

Italy has had an issue they have studies on with increasing deaths from flu each year. In the past couple flu seasons 25,000 deaths per year. This year add covid to it and there is a huge crisis.

Covid cannot be compared to the flu because there is no data. We also have no data for worldwide flu mortality rates. The 0.1% mortality rate is from the CDC and relates to the US only. 

Italy in recent studies has had a 40% mortality rate for ventilator patients with ARDS. In the US rates are as low as 19% with Washington state being higher than most at 38%. Washinton has also had a lot of Covid deaths. 

In the 2009 H1N1 outbreak 12,469 people died of the virus in a year. Worldwide about a half million. That is more than 1,000 a month in the US but really most occurred during the fall and winter flu season.

We are expirimenting with containing a disease outbreak. There are many unknowns. How will fear and isolation affect suicide and overdose rates? We have seen an uptick in my area. What about violence? In my state last I heard we were backed up about 1,500 background checks for guns. Interesting times. 

I hope everyone will balance fear and stress with facts and reason. Don't let numbers in isolation scare you too much.


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## gottatrot

I apologize for spelling errors in the previous post. Difficult to type on my tiny phone.


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## bsms

A friend of ours is in serious danger of dying from coronavirus. He had a heart attack a few years back and lost 30% of his heart capacity. He is overweight and older than me. A very nice guy who would give you the shirt off his back but who hates hospitals and didn't go in until he had collapsed at home. He is on a respirator but the doctors are very concerned. Without the virus, he might have 10 more years of life. They have warned the family that recovery is not likely.

Yet....if you destroy how most people make a living, what then? I bought hay this morning and was glad to see they were open. I don't have a place to store large amounts of hay. If it stops coming in (much from California), a lot of Arizona horses will die. But farms need machinery and transportation and truckers need food and tires and....our economy isn't built to allow millions to live without interaction.

Several extended family members may not have a job to go back to much longer. My oldest daughter will be laid off if the airlines go under. The service economy disappears if there is no one to serve. My pastor freaked when I pointed out our population in America grows by 2 million a year and that a million deaths would only cut out growth by 50%. He doesn't always appreciate how an ex-military guy looks at things. Most of my friends have elevated risks - older, many overweight, several with heart and lung issues. Each death individually is tragic. But it goes back to the eternal question, "How safe is safe?" Are 40,000 deaths driving acceptable? We've accepted 10-20,000 flu deaths for years. Would ten times that number be acceptable for the first year of a novel virus? And what happens if you try, as many governors are, to keep millions in suspended animation for months? 

Tough questions and no easy answers.

PS: My youngest daughter (in the military) had her transfer put on hold 10 days ago, then resumed last Friday. She is in Texas now and has been put in some sort of 14 day quarantine along with others arriving.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> We've accepted 10-20,000 flu deaths for years. Would ten times that number be acceptable for the first year of a novel virus? And what happens if you try, as many governors are, to keep millions in suspended animation for months?


The problem is that as far as I know, the people dying from the flu yearly are dying despite medical professionals doing everything possible to save them (stupid insurance, bad choice of treatments, etc non-withstanding). However, as this pandemic sweeps through areas, people are dying because there isn't enough stuff to treat them with. Someone who may have recovered if they were placed on a vent is dying because there isn't one to put them on. Not only is that terrible for the individual and their family, I cannot imagine how awful it must be for the medical staff who have to decide who gets saved and who doesn't.


My MIL died from respiratory complications of the flu several years ago and it was horrible. However, trying to imagine how much worse it would have been had the ICU doctor told us sorry, your 82 yo MIL doesn't get a ventilator because we feel this 46 yo other patient is higher priority/has a higher chance of survival/etc is beyond comprehension. That is what the suspended animation is hoping to stop.


Is losing your (general you) job and seeing all you have worked for potentially disappear worse than being dead? 

Tough questions for sure.


Very sorry about your friend in the hospital. Hope there is some kind of miracle and he is able to recover.



@gottatrot I hope you are able to take care of yourself as well as those you are caring for at work. are you working crazy hours now I would think or has the virus not made it to you locally yet?


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## gottatrot

Sorry about your friend @bsms. I hope he will be ok. 
I do not want to sound callus or minimize anything but someone with that poor cardiac function in my experience does not have ten years left even if he is lucky enough to not catch any viruses. More like two.
Hopefully he can have another year or two with some quality.

We have not had cases of covid here yet so more nurses have been on call instead of working. The doctors are keeping the census low and send even suspected covid home if they are not very ill.

In the US no one is making decisions about who should live or die. I hope that will never happen. We have good protocols for respiratory failure. Every death is a tragedy and unfortunately many have followed poor diets, smoked or done drugs and made themselves more likely to die if a new disease comes out. 

I hope soon they will decide it is fine to use regular droplet precautions for covid and the shortages of needed supplies will improve. The virus has a possibility of becoming aerosolized in rare circumstances but is less able to do so than the flu virus. Regular masks should be fine, no gowns. As infectious as the flu is, this works for the flu. 

Although it sounds nice to have more "basic" vents available or multiple people per vent, that will not help. Ventilators require individualized settings based on size and health of the patient. ARDS requires special settings. Only qualified staff can run vents and they will limit how many can be used.


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## Hondo

I recently had a wake up call. Arizona has very few cases. On top of that, I'm in a location that is fairly remote with the average property being around 5 acres.


Flagstaff which is about 50 or so miles to the East had only one confirmed case a few days ago. Then they decided to open up a drive through testing site.


The graph has been going straight up since. Today, after 190 tests being done, there are 18 confirmed cases. That's 9% (as if yall couldn't do that math


So if you are in a group of ten, extrapolation would suggest one of those 10 may be positive.


And for me, as Dr. Brilliant claimed (who is 75 YO), positives over 70YO have a death rate of 1 out of 7.


So if it's played down, the economy will absolutely bounce back big time. All us old people who are dragging the economy down will be no more. 



The government will be looking for places to spend all the SSI funds pilling up spilling over the coffers. And companies, states, counties, and the gov will be relieved from paying all those retirement payments.


I've been relaxed with a false sense of minimal concern for my area. But only because AZ has done very little testing.


My view is that this thing may be silently spreading right underneath our noses. Certainly has been in Flagstaff.


The 650 thousand world wide annual deaths from flu could turn into millions.


If people are tested, they can know to self isolate and the rest can move about more. But if people don't know, and they are positive, they're happily bouncing along with others being infected.


By all accounts testing and isolation in other countries is what "flattened" the vertical curve that is occurring in Flagstaff, AZ. https://coconino.az.gov/2294/COVID-19-Information


I certainly don't think people should panic and go wild eyed willy nilly but it does worry me when people suggest various reasons why we should not be quite so concerned.


That's my spiel. Thank you.


Edit: Maybe I've missed it, but I've yet to read an account where anybody with credentials and expertise in this field is in anyway relaxed.


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## Hondo

Ok more spiel.......


From my reading, the big thing that concern me is the asymptomatic spreading of the virus. With the regular flu, at least in my experience, you know darn well you are sick and anyone that sees you can tell from looking at you. We automatically stay away.


With the Covid-19 this doesn't seem to always be the case. Maybe not with 'conventional' flu either but my read is that asymptomatic spread of 'regular' flu hasn't been a problem.


With Covid-19, anybody that has not been tested absolutely does not know they are not positive. I may be infected. I have not been tested. That goes for everybody in my understanding.


So to compare Covid-19 to regular flu may be a monumental error.


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## bsms

"_The graph has been going straight up since. Today, after 190 tests being done, there are 18 confirmed cases. That's 9% (as if yall couldn't do that math / So if you are in a group of ten, extrapolation would suggest one of those 10 may be positive._" - @Hondo

Only if the testing is being done on random individuals rather than people seeking to be tested. 

But yes, it IS going to spread. And a number of people WILL die, and my wife & I are over 60. Most of our friends are older than us, too! A lot of social distancing can be done in Arizona without much effort. I was rarely within 6' of anyone while shopping today (hay #1, but also coffee, milk and some pain killers for my back). Probably less than 2 minutes total. OTOH, this is such a good time to avoid cities if one can! NYC seems to be half of the US cases. 

Tough times ahead regardless of what decisions are made, and there isn't any good data to make decision-making easy.

BTW - the guy I know in the hospital doesn't exactly hang around in bars, go to concerts or do Spring Break on the beach. He lives a pretty quiet life without a lot of outside contact too, and he's fighting for his life. My wife and/or I may be next. No way to know. I confess I'm glad I don't have to decide how we all should proceed. I'm praying for those who do. :frown_color:


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## gottatrot

My point is not "don't be concerned," or don't protect yourself. My point is that the more actual facts you read the better you will feel. Understanding facts combats fear. 

For example yes, as many as 50% of all flu infections are also asymptomatic. Which is how it also spreads so easily. But the more cases we know of without symptoms, the more reassured we should be because that means the deadliness of the virus is far less than it first appears. 

If we only know of ten cases and two of those die, we think the virus has a 20% mortality rate. If we learn there are actually 90 more cases that were not caught because there were no symtoms, it goes down to 2%. If 1,000, even better.

People are circulating things that make this virus sound like it is worse than nearly anything. Such as the info that it can lead to scarring in the lungs. That is true of any respiratory virus and has been researched. Not unique to the coronavirus and happens with the flu. 

Also the reports of the rare young and healthy person who gets very sick. A young person here was on a ventilator after a rhinovirus recently, which is just a cold virus. People can have any response to a virus from paralysis (I know two people who had viruses attack their spinal cord randomly) to death.

The rare instances should be less concerning to us personally. 

Peope don't need to fear that this virus has any magic properties. It has a lipid exterior making it easier to kill than some like norovirus. It enters your body the usual way, when someone coughs or sneezes in your vicinity or you touch the shopping cart that has someone's snot on it and then run the virus in your eye. Asymptomatic carriers are less likely to spread it unless they have another reason to cough like allergies. 

Fear and misinformation are what cause people to drop off their pets at shelters, avoid eating fruits and vegetables (it is not transmitted by eating food) and thinking going outside is risky because the virus could blow onto you from the wind.


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## Hondo

Agree with much of what you say, even though it does in some instances contradict what some experts in the field seem to be saying. Did not know there were that many asymptomatic flu positives.



The one thing that really concerns me, and there are some experts to blame here, is the encouragement to, "STAY HOME!"


More reasonable articles on social distancing encourages people to get outside, exercise, walk in nature if possible, all for mental and physical health.


My new neighbors are like that. They seem to fear the virus will fall out of the air like acid rain, only without the rain.


The thing that continues to bother me in spite of the remarks you've made is the totality of the response around the world and the world's leading health experts. I find that rather hard to shrug off.


Part of the concern I know is the fear of the unknown by the infectious experts. This is new and not understood making the future difficult to predict. But still, the body of concern among the sure-enough experts is staggering.


I've read how easy it is to kill. I've also read that all germs and viruses will die instantly in contact with a copper atom along with the question of why all handrails and door handles in hospitals and other large gathering places are no longer made of copper or brass.


I know you have lots of experience including personal up close experience and know a lot. I am not and cannot argue against any of it from my own personal knowledge but I must weigh it against what a large body of experts are saying.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Only if the testing is being done on random individuals rather than people seeking to be tested.



True, which of course means the actual percentage of infectious individuals could be higher, lower, or the same.


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## bsms

If testing is largely limited to those who have reason to believe they may have caught it, then it is very likely those tested will have a larger - MUCH larger - percentage of positive tests than a random sample.

Strongly agree on getting outside. Tough in NYC since so many people live in such a small place but easy in Arizona. Just walking through a neighborhood is very safe. 6' distance and not touching shared objects is a huge part and when my wife & I walk, we almost never see another human out.

I find large bodies of experts unconvincing. There is a scene in the musical "1776" where one person is able to vote down the Declaration of Independence. He argues, in essence, "_If I vote for it, I will blend in the crowd. If I vote against it, I will be known in history as the person who killed American independence._" An expert who recommends extreme measures will never get in trouble. After all, if wrong, he can say he was concerned for others. An expert who says we should loosen restrictions, if loosening turns out to be the wrong answer, will be blamed forever.

In flying safety, something I know about, the safety experts always advise more caution. But you cannot fly jet fighters without risk. The idea that there is an acceptable level of death is one society doesn't like to admit. We see it in helmet discussions all the time. "_If it saves just ONE person...._" American society is extremely risk adverse - in discussions. In actions, we prove all the time that we are willing to accept risk of death. So it becomes a question of how much risk in exchange for some other benefit. And in this case, as with helmets, it is very hard to QUANTIFY both the risks and the rewards.

We don't KNOW how contagious the coronavirus is before symptoms show. How do we collect data on people who are sick but who don't have any way of knowing it? We don't know actual death rates. We know how many people have died but we don't know how many have caught it and recovered without ever feeling a need to be tested. I don't KNOW that my flu the first week of February was the regular flu. It seems likely but the symptoms would be the same as a milder case of coronavirus. One cannot create a meaningful percentage without knowing the denominator.

I know this: It was much easier to feel afraid of the coronavirus when I was in Monterey and had cable news 24/7. Most of my friends are 60+ and we accept that we may die. Any time. From a wide variety of possible causes. We don't expect to live forever. In the limited group of people I know it is the middle aged who are most worried. The young believe they are invincible. As I once did. The old know we are not. The ones in the middle are the ones facing an unwelcome truth.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> If testing is largely limited to those who have reason to believe they may have caught it, then it is very likely those tested will have a larger - MUCH larger - percentage of positive tests than a random sample.



It is a human tendency to favor theories that support what we WANT to believe.


Another way to look at the type people that are tested is that they are the people most worried about C-19 whether they have symptoms or not. And those are the people that are most likely to go to extremes on social distancing etc and the least likely to become infected.



On the other hand, young people that often discount the seriousness of C-19 are the very individuals that may be most likely to be infected while being the least likely to sit in their car in a line waiting to be tested.


So on that scenario, the actual percentage of infections in the random sample could be much larger than that reported in the voluntary testing.


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## bsms

"Another way to look at the type people that are tested is that they are the people most worried about C-19 whether they have symptoms or not."

Here is how it is working:

"_If you have concerns about coronavirus symptoms or exposure you can call Banner Health at 1-844-549-1851. A clinical team member can talk to you to determine if testing is appropriate. The hotline is open from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday though Thursday, 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. on Friday. 

If testing is needed, you will be scheduled to visit a Banner drive-thru site....

The Coconino County Department of Health and Human Services now has drive-up coronavirus swab testing available at one location: Coconino Community College 4th Street from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. Fort Tuthill County Park testing is no longer open.

The testing will be available Tuesday. Coconino County said an order from a medical provider is required for testing. Testing sites are not open to the public and people without the proper documentation will be turned away.....

The Mayo Clinic of Arizona is providing drive-thru COVID-19 testing in Phoenix and Scottsdale. Testing is open Monday through Friday from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and is only for Mayo Clinic patients with a written order from a Mayo Clinic doctor...."_

https://www.azfamily.com/news/conti...cle_c0fcce78-6b26-11ea-904f-f3580d1084e5.html

"_The state’s largest healthcare provider, Banner Health, has a network for testing in place across the state. Drive-thru testing centers were recently opened in Phoenix, Scottsdale and Coconino County for people with doctor’s orders; you’ll be turned away without one._"

https://www.12news.com/article/news...izona/75-d2464301-e94a-467e-a444-37b999d3e6b9


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Here is how it is working:
> 
> "_If you have concerns about coronavirus symptoms or exposure_



I rest my example/case.


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## bsms

"._..A clinical team member can talk to you to determine if testing is appropriate._"


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## Hondo

If I were one of the individuals that was in dire fear for my life, I do not believe I would have any problem convincing a team member I should be tested. And I'm sure they don't want to deny a test to someone who later dies.


For instance, I met in a restaurant recently with five old high school chums (this part is true). A few days later the waitress told me that there was a report that someone in the restaurant we were seated adjacent to had tested positive but did not know who it was. She tried to find out but was unable. After explaining this and my 78YO age I would explain that I would really really like to be tested if possible. I have animals and there is no one else to care for them.


Bottom line: Those who want to be tested are those most concerned about their health. Those who wouldn't worry that much about testing even in the presence of some flu symptoms, are those most likely to be infected.


If enough from the first group got through, the test results could very plausibly become skewed in the direction of fewer infections than the general population.


I make no claim that this is immutable fact, but just that it is plausible to counteract the unsupported claim that the results would be skewed in the other direction.


I have a runny nose, cough, and watery eyes. Allergies but it fits well with my little fib above.


I did an internet search about Italy reporting all deaths as Covid-19 deaths but didn't find. Did notice that Italy broke their own record of daily deaths and have surpassed China in deaths per day and total deaths.


One thing I'm puzzled about is why people can't do a little more providing face masks and eye shields are used as in other countries.


https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...to-the-new-coronavirus-has-been-so-aggressive


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## gottatrot

That was a good article. Explains reasons for the measures being taken to try to keep covid from becoming a virus we deal with regularly but probably that is not possible.

I am not against that, but if people normally followed safety precautions it would not be necessary.

I am curious which things I have mentioned seem to contradict expert advice, @Hondo? The numbers and such are from cdc and expert sources.

If you were tested but had no symptoms, what would change for you? I understand a person might want to know they may have some immunity, but I would not count on it at all. Viruses can change.

If you were positive, local health care would do nothing until you came down with symptoms. If you had a fever and cough from any cause, it could turn into pneumonia and get serious fast so you would want to get to a hospital for any shortness of breath or dizziness.

My dad had a fever and cough this past week. I checked on him because he is 85. Relatives thought he should go to the hospital. I had a mask and gloves, he did not cough when I was within range and we washed our hands and surfaces. I feel there is almost zero risk I was exposed.

Probably my dad had the flu. His cough was mild, he could walk and talk without breathing hard, and he is healthy so his heart could handle going up into the 120s with the fever. Tylenol brought it down.

The only thing he was doing wrong was not realizing how much fluid he was losing through secretion from nose and lung plus sweat. That can quickly lead to dehydration, then shock. He drank a lot more and has been well a couple days now.
My mom has a milder version now but she is only 70 and doing fine.

We think this was flu not covid because they were at church several days prior, and also it only took my mom a couple days to get it after my dad.

The measures being taken make people afraid. They are necessary because people have not been able to live like most nurses do all the time. We are used to dealing with infectious disease so many of us habitually do not touch our faces unless we just washed our hands and give a wide berth to coughing people.

Our state has a shelter in place order. It changes my life very little. We always only shop when necessary, and go to the barn and work. The only thing is I haven't been riding with friends, but that would be safe if we washed our hands before touching surfaces. We never get within six feet of each other.


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## Hondo

Hondo said:


> Agree with much of what you say, even though it does in some instances contradict what some experts in the field seem to be saying.



One thing that caught my eye was that it was really not known that the virus could not become air born as smallpox. There was something about 700 people becoming infected on a ship and the airways were a possible suspect. And something about apartments in NY that did have circulating air was being changed.


Possibly and likely not, but it was out there. Don't remember the source but it was some infectious ex-spurt speaking about the unknowns. Also read that although warmer weather caused a drop off of flu it was not known if this virus would behave similarly although the thought was that it should.


I've just been reading what "seems" to be a little more serious "tone" among the national and international agencies and their members.



I'm a little confused at this point as I just read that several versions of the common cold were corona viruses. I need to do a search to clear up in my mind exactly what is a flu virus and what is a cold virus and where the Covid-19 fits in.


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## Hondo

*Ventilators are more complicated, and painful, than you probably realize
*




*That's what gottatrot said.*


*






*

*Edit: Oh my. Another unexpected downside to over exuberance.*

*https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-are-clogging-toilets-wipes-t-shirts-n1168706
*


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## gottatrot

Yes and it's being spread around, "Don't compare this to the flu." Of course it is good to both compare and contrast it to the flu. 
It makes sense to compare this to the flu because it is a respiratory virus, it is spread through droplet transmission, and is surrounded by an outer fatty layer called an envelope like the flu. The outer layer is easily disrupted by soap or other cleaners, like the flu virus. The symptoms are also similar to the flu and other respiratory viruses. 

Coronavirus kills people in the same way that flu does. 
One way it can kill is if you get dehydrated from fluid losses (sweat from fever, respiratory and nasal secretions) and go into hypovolemic shock. Any kind of shock puts you at risk for acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) which means you will end up on a ventilator. You can also go into respiratory failure from having your lungs fill up with secretions, your respiratory muscles wear out from coughing and breathing hard, until you are unable to take deep breaths and get good oxygen in and carbon dioxide out. 
People who already have poor lung function from COPD or cancer will end up in respiratory failure more easily. People with poor heart function will also get into trouble easily. They are already circulating poorly so dehydration will quickly lead to organs not getting enough blood flow. A sick heart cannot tolerate higher heart rates from fever so will begin backing fluid up into the lungs instead of circulating it around the body. 

It can be contrasted with the flu in that it may have different case mortality rates based on age or the duration of the illness, it lasts longer, it has a longer incubation period, and other differences.

I apologize I wanted to link that BBC article that mentioned how Italy reported their deaths in hospitals as all relating to coronavirus, but I can't find it again on Google. It was in a BBC news article, which I assumed meant it was sourced appropriately.

CDC reports that transmission is through droplet and possibly through surface contact, but that is a less usual way for it to spread.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmission.html
Our official word from infection control at the hospitals is that it is possible to aerosolize the virus doing certain respiratory procedures, but that it is less easily aerosolized than the flu virus due to its different structure. Coughing and things a person normally does will not make the virus airborne.

We need more data. But we also know the structure of the virus and it seems to behave like the other coronaviruses and respiratory viruses we know. On our hospital's respiratory panel we test for about 15 viruses, and they all transmit through droplets. There are others we don't test for, including the more usual coronaviruses that cause up to 30% of all "common cold" symptoms. 
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

If it helps anyone, we were given official information to give out to patients about FAQs regarding the coronavirus.

1) Should I stop taking NAIDS?
The reason this question is circulating is because of four cases in France where young patients developed serious symptoms from COVID and had also taken NSAIDS (Ibuprofen) early in their illness. 
There is no evidence other than speculation that Ibuprofen can worsen COVID. Most likely the risk of having a high fever and dehydration for most people would be far higher than any potential risk from taking NSAIDs. In these cases the fact that NSAIDs were taken and the patients became worse could be entirely coincidental. 

2) Should I stop taking Beta Blocker or ACE Inhibitor medication? 
There was a study in China that related taking these medications to patients who died in China. However, this was hypothesis only and since the patients who were most ill had comorbidities that meant they were taking these medications, there is no way to relate the medications to the severity of the illness rather than the comorbidities themselves.

3) Should people avoid taking inhaled or oral steroids?
Given as a treatment for SARS, MERS or flu, steroids have not proven effective and possibly harmful. However, those were high dose steroids given to ICU patients and those who are taking inhaled steroids or oral steroids normally still should take them to prevent their underlying health conditions from worsening.

4) What about immune boosters like Vitamin C?
In doses that can be absorbed orally, there is still no data to support that they are effective.


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## Hondo

Great post and link to a pretty good article. The author seemed to be concerned about the unintended consequences of some of the draconian measures being put in place, and he may be right, but then he may be wrong. He has credentials.


I did have a bit of a problem with one comment late in the article:



Quote: The vast majority of this hecatomb would be people with limited life expectancies. That’s in contrast to 1918, when many young people died. End Quote


My read was, " oh well, they were probably gonna die anyhow". I find it difficult to measure the value of one life against another which he "seemed" to be doing.


But yes, I do agree that "people" are over reacting and the news media is not helping.


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## gottatrot

No, older people are not less important. 

Forgot to mention common cause of death from covid or flu is the path of pneumonia to sepsis, then systemic inflammatory response which is shock.

Our hospital received more new ventilators yesterday. There are also lots of extra temporary staff in the cities that can be sent to us.

What is frustrating is a ton of new rules each day that are poorly thought out and other stupid things. Someone thought nurses couldn't be trusted with ppe so they are hiding a lot. We are protesting. 

Everyone just wants a single n95 mask we can throw on if a covid patient codes so we can resuscitate them. I have one in my locker a nurse gave me but it is the wrong size. I don't care, I can live with myself if I get covid but not if I did not try to code someone just because they might have covid. So far our rule outs in the hospital have met very little criteria, meaning no fever, maybe a slight cough.

Last I checked the case mortality in the u.s. was around 0.1%. That is what some predicted.


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## Hondo

There was an interview where Fauci predicted when everything was over and done the mortality would be 0.1% of the people that actually become infected.


I do not get flu shots so I am extra careful already plus I think I'm in the upper tier of health for my age group. 



I just worry that the flu shots could depress my natural immune system allowing strains that are not protected by the shot to get in. I think I had some basis for that belief but I forget now.


Health care workers are really exposed. There should never ever be another situation where shortages of personal protection are allowed to become unavailable to the front lines.


That said, I did read an article from some source that looked legit, I forget the source, that said the masks only really helped the infected by keeping them from spreading. The author claimed there was so much air going around them that they didn't really protect the uninfected from becoming infected.


I of course don't know if that's true but I do have a 3M face mask with canisters that are very fine, forgot how small, that seals very tightly and does not let any air in other that through the canisters. If I were really concerned, that's what I'd wear. They are a bit of work to breath through though.


It just seem like te dust masks would at least catch something which would be some reduction.


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## Hondo

Just read that the US has just passed 1,000 fatalities out of 68,000 reported cases. That is 3%. For the fatality rate to be 0.1% the actual number of cases would need to be 2 million plus. Or 29 out of 30 cases being unreported.


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## Hondo

Oops. 14.7% with actual cases being 1 million.


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## bsms

Daily Mail - not the most reputable source - has 1,271 deaths / 85,381 tested positive. That is 1.49% but still unhelpful since some of those currently diagnosed WILL die in the future. That would drive the number up while a bigger denominator (we obviously don't know of all cases) would drive it down. We'd need a denominator of a million to drive it down to 0.12% and I really doubt the denominator is that high. Seems obvious it is worse than the flu, but probably not as bad as the WHO originally predicted. But a denominator of 170,000 would drive it to 0.75%.....








https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8159841/What-REAL-death-rate-coronavirus.html

On a slightly positive note, the guy I know who has it (and a lot of complicating conditions) was briefly pulled off the respirator. It didn't go as well as hoped so they put him back on. But he had improved enough that they tried taking him off. No one is recommending optimism. Still a tough row to hoe ahead! True for him and true of the world.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Daily Mail - not the most reputable source - has 1,271 deaths / 85,381 tested positive. That is 1.49% but still unhelpful since some of those currently diagnosed WILL die in the future. That would drive the number up while a bigger denominator (we obviously don't know of all cases) would drive it down. We'd need a denominator of a million to drive it down to 0.12% and I really doubt the denominator is that high. Seems obvious it is worse than the flu, but probably not as bad as the WHO originally predicted. But a denominator of 170,000 would drive it to 0.75%.....
> 
> On a slightly positive note, the guy I know who has it (and a lot of complicating conditions) was briefly pulled off the respirator. It didn't go as well as hoped so they put him back on. But he had improved enough that they tried taking him off. No one is recommending optimism. Still a tough row to hoe ahead! True for him and true of the world.


Yes, it seems I added an extra zero by mistake, so using @Hondo's numbers 1,000/68,000 = 1.5% (.015). I had seen similar numbers but accidentally added another zero to the 68,000. Wishful thinking I guess.

Good to hear your friend has trialed getting off the ventilator, @bsms. Hopefully he will be successful on his next attempt. Even trying can be helpful, since it can give the respiratory muscles some exercise for the next day or attempt.

Honestly not trying to be stubborn or "Polyanna," but I just don't think we have enough info to know if this is worse than the flu or not yet _in the US_. It may well be worse than the flu in other countries.
We just have not done enough tests to know. Possibly it is more deadly than the flu, a lot more deadly than most coronaviruses and less deadly than the SARS coronavirus. 
When we have rapid coronavirus tests, we will know a lot more because we can test a lot more people. 
For example, in my hospital we are testing very few people. Anyone who could have another reason for their illness will not be tested. Meanwhile, we test everyone with any symptom for the flu. We have had another person die from the flu in the past couple of weeks, and also a very sick one that might die tonight. 

Around 600,000 covid tests in the U.S. so far. Meanwhile, every doctor's office can test for flu, and normally well over a million tests are run yearly (a couple years ago, around 1.2 million). 



> Influenza viruses cause a substantial burden of illness each year in the United States, estimated at 9.2–35.6 million cases of infection, 4.3–16.7 million clinic visits, 140,000–710,000 hospitalizations, and 12,000–56,000 deaths.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038762/

I highly suspect the number of cases with a disease that seems as highly contagious as the flu must be much higher than what test results have shown us so far.
It is my opinion that if the news tracked the flu cases in the same way they are tracking the Covid, people would be as worried and panicked about the flu. Imagine when they told us the deaths for the year had gone over 30,000, or how many people were on ventilators, or when the infection rate reached 15 million. Yet we do not care about it. Not really. To me it seems somewhat selective to be so worried about this new virus and not about the flu.

But it does make me wonder if the world is now going to have an issue over every new outbreak of disease. I am hopeful that will not be the case. Something I think about is that we know social isolation is unhealthy if it goes on for very long. Some people have families but some do not. My M-I-L ended up isolating herself at home due to mental illness and it made her illness much worse. She is in a nursing home now and doing much better. She is funny though, her reason for isolating herself was fear of chemicals, and she is irrationally not worried about catching any disease but is quite worried about the chemicals that will be used by staff at the nursing home, in particular she has a fear of hand sanitizer. The staff have to lie and tell her they do not use it around her. 

Another one I thought was funny was that DH's grandmother called me yesterday, she is in her 90s and she wanted to talk to a nurse. She said she had heard she should not get together with her friends and should wash her hands, and she wanted to know if that was true. Somehow she was just now hearing about all of this, even though she does have a TV. Luckily she only has been going to the grocery store across the road recently. 

Back to horses, I did something stupid yesterday. Hero was being a little wild and hopping around, rearing on the lead. I let him loose to run 100 yards or so toward the barn, which I do sometimes and really shouldn't. He always stays near the herd, and the barn is quite far from roads, but you never know. Anyway, he ran over to another gelding's pen, spun around and kicked the metal gate super hard. Then he started lifting and shaking that leg for a while, and favoring it. I worried he might have damaged something, but he was walking on it somewhat OK when I left. Today he seemed normal, so maybe such a hard kick just made the bones or joints sore. I'll have to avoid letting him right next to those geldings he wants to mess with. 
He has been his usual crazy and goofy self most of the time but very mellow under saddle lately, so that's great. I've been trying to reinforce that idea with lots of relaxed walking.

I'm experimenting with filling the tiny cracks in Amore's hooves where I suspect some WLD is hiding with No Thrush powder. I've been scrubbing the hooves, then when it wasn't satisfying me that I was getting in the cracks I was using Vetericyn. I could go through a $30 spray bottle in a few days so decided I better try the No Thrush. I believe it is not rough on live tissue like the Thrush Buster and some others might be. I was trying Thrush Buster but the cracks did not seem to be filling in.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> We have had another person die from the flu in the past couple of weeks, and also a very sick one that might die tonight.



I just don't think I could be a nurse.


I read what I believe is a good article in the Atlantic this AM. 



After reading the article, I was left with the understanding that everyone is likely to become infected with the virus at some point before a vaccine is produced. Just a matter of whether it's before a treatment is available and whether it's before hospitals are able to be ramped up.


They mention at some point the virus is likely to become so widespread that traveling within the US presents no more risk that going to the local convenience store.


They detail four possible scenarios.







https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...ck-to-normal/608752/?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## gottatrot

That was a good article, very interesting. One thing I haven't heard is how they will manufacture doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists to staff all these beds and run all the vents.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> One thing I haven't heard is how they will manufacture doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists to staff all these beds and run all the vents.


 I have heard from several of my specialist veterinary friends that they have been told if things get to a certain level, they will be commandeered to work in human hospitals. Not sure if this is a state by state thing or a federal thing. 

The vent from the specialty vet hospital I used to work at has already been sent to a NYC hospital, so I suppose it's not much of a stretch to see the doctors being taken, too. Not sure if critical care veterinary techs would also be involved.

And honestly, if the choice was die or be treated by a veterinarian, how many people would refuse?


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## gottatrot

I don't want the animals to die from lack of vets or ventilators. I've never been one who could eat my dog if we were dying stranded in a raft. We'd starve together and then he could eat me after I died if he had no such moral constraints.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> One thing I haven't heard is how they will manufacture doctors and nurses and respiratory therapists to staff all these beds and run all the vents.



I've got a feeling that is A#1 reason all stops are being pulled to flatten the curve as they know there is no way to accomplish the above.


Found my 3M face mask with two canisters that filter everything from chlorine fumes to organic material.


Wonder how much I could get for that on Craig's?


Bet they'd be beating my door down and fighting over it. Guess I'd better keep it so nobody gets hurt.


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## bsms

Came across this. It makes for an interesting data point:

"_By screening healthy as well as sick people, say scientists, Iceland and deCODE have assembled a far more accurate picture of COVID-19. And the results are sobering. “The virus had a much, much wider spread in the community than we would have assumed, based on the screening of high-risk people,” deCODE’s founder and CEO Kári Stefánsson told Fortune by phone from his office in Reykjavík on Wednesday. As of Thursday, 737 have tested positive, or roughly 6.3% of all people tested in the country. Of those, 15 are in hospitals, two of them in intensive care. The rest—many of whom are asymptomatic—have been ordered to self-quarantine....

...Amid the fraught debate over self-quarantining, Iceland has remained curiously calm. It has no lockdown laws in place, simply urging people to remain at home if possible. Elementary schools remain open. 

Rather than stress self-distancing above all, the focus has been on testing._"

https://fortune.com/2020/03/27/coronavirus-testing-us-iceland-cdc-trump-decode-covid-19-tests/

Asymptomatic people are not a major source of infections. CDC and WHO suggest they may cause up to 15% of the cases. I believe that is based on a Chinese study. 17 needing hospitalization out of 737 is 2.3%. If 40 times as many people are infected as need to be hospitalized, we might find the denominator is much larger than we knew. But it also suggests it will be tough to stop the spread.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> But it also suggests it will be tough to stop the spread.



My personal unsupported conclusion based on what I've read so far is that at some point everyone will be exposed to the virus at some point. Here in the US and everywhere else. 



How soon that happens is depending on several things, social distancing, testing, weather (temp), immunity, and all the things we all have read.


But sooner or later, all will be exposed. Don't see how it could be otherwise.


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## gottatrot

I would say it's probable most will get exposed but not inevitable. In my opinion covid spreads as easily as colds or flu but we do not have to get those if we are careful. All a person has to do is maintain caution until a vaccine comes out.

Masks can help but only if people are educated. It will do no good to wear a mask if you feel safe and stop cleaning your hands as much and rub your eyes or lift the mask to rub your nose. It will keep you safer from those who cough and sneeze openly at the store, if they wear one. Still, I would assume many will still wipe their nose under the mask and put their germs on the shopping cart.

My thing with masks is it gives the impression that you are only getting the virus from things in the air. People can still sneeze into your eyes.

But I don't expect to get covid, although I know it is possible. In 20 yrs I have not to my knowledge caught any infectious disease from work and have been around many including airborne like TB and meningitis. I did catch H1N1 at the store when I wasn't being careful. It taught me to be more careful.

In the rare occasion I am caught out in the vicinity of a sneeze or cough, I turn my back, squint my eyes closed and hold my breath as I walk out of the droplet vicinity. Who knows, the person might have TB and it is better to create a lot of distance before inhaling. If I have reason to believe my mucous membranes have been hit, I go wash them off and blow my nose.

But also people should assume they might be carrying something. This is why good nurses (not all) clean their hands before touching patients or surfaces in their rooms, and would never dream of coughing, sneezing, touching nose, mouth or eyes in their vicinity. I have run out of a room holding back a sneeze when necessary.


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## Hondo

This is good information to take to heart. I reckon my unsupported and uninformed has been informed. Holding one's breath while departing then blowing one's nose? This makes sense.


I have never been a compulsive hand washer. That needs changing along with a constant urge to rub my eyes.


Yesterday when leaving the local convenience store three men were having a blab session near my truck which spilled over to me as I approached. One man mentioned he had not seen me around, introduced himself, and stuck out his hand. What was I to do? I did wash when I returned home but did not disinfect the steering wheel or car door.


Today and old grade school/high school friend stopped by. We didn't shake hands as we're beyond that type introduction. But he had his grand daughter who he had recently rescued from the Pomona college (ME major) because of the C-19 shut down and she extender her hand. So what was I to do? Ok, I washed again after they left. But not until after door knobs etc had been handled by me. In two hours I cannot swear I did not rub my eyes.


It's those kinds of scenarios that led me think that all (or at least most) would eventually be exposed. Not that they would necessarily come down with it as some do not with the flu, but exposed never-the-less.


If a vaccination does wind up taking a year and half it would seem by the current rate the c-19 would be spread fairly far and wide.


On a very selfish note, maybe it would be beneficial to become exposed earlier rather than later so just in case a serious illness did follow it would happen before the hospitals became over ran/over burdened with more than they can handle.


Disclaimer: I ain't doin' it and not recommending anybody else do! Just another wacky thought that entered my (brain?).


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> maybe it would be beneficial to become exposed earlier rather than later so just in case a serious illness did follow it would happen before the hospitals became over ran/over burdened with more than they can handle.


Too late for that around here..


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> On a very selfish note, maybe it would be beneficial to become exposed earlier rather than later so just in case a serious illness did follow it would happen before the hospitals became over ran/over burdened with more than they can handle.
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I ain't doin' it and not recommending anybody else do! Just another wacky thought that entered my (brain?).


Wouldn't recommend getting it, in case you're one of the people who don't do as well. The thing is, our bodies are not static and so many things can change how we respond. At a certain time of year a person's immune system might be doing better, perhaps because of more Vitamin D exposure or recently eating a better diet with more vitamins, or just because you don't currently have any other low level infections or virus burden going on in your body. We don't know, but the virus might get weaker in warmer weather, in which case there might be months where the risk of exposure is a lot lower. 

It might seem like you're bound to make a mistake and touch something with the virus, but there are many odds that come into play. What are the odds that the virus is on the exact part of the surface you touched, even if you forgot to wash your hands? What are the odds that the virus load there is healthy enough to infect you, and there is enough of the virus there to overcome your immune system?
If people are careful, they are still reducing their chances of getting exposed exponentially. 

Since we can't be trusted to be careful, our "parents" in the government are requiring social distancing. Spreading our germs freely among each other was never a good idea in the first place. I think shaking hands or touching other people in order to greet them should become outdated. In the current state, I think it would not be considered impolite to decline to shake hands. We keep hand sanitizer in the truck so we can use it immediately after entering a business or shaking hands with someone. I like what someone said, which is to imagine you have horse manure on your hands until after you have washed them. Even then, I really avoid touching my eyes or nose unless I've just washed my hands and never do it at work or at a store even then.

If I had kids, I would consider this a good time to discuss with them about comorbidities. It seems a good time to point out how even if you don't think you would mind a long, slow decline from diabetes, heart disease or COPD, a person might instead die quickly if a new virus comes out. I think it might be easier to relate this to kids, how if they eat right, maintain a healthy weight, don't smoke, drink excessively or do drugs, they will be less vulnerable to scary diseases throughout life. 
Of course not every comorbidity is avoidable, but people who try to live healthy lives tend to end up with less issues, versus those who live very unhealthy lives and end up with several comorbidities, making their risk of dying from any virus including the flu increase dramatically.
Those we get in the hospital with comorbidities almost always have them because of unhealthy practices. Nearly all relate to smoking, drinking, drug use or obesity. 

My parents are still recovering from some virus with fever and cough, perhaps the flu or Covid. They are 70 and 85, but only have one comorbidity between them. My mom has an autoimmune disease, and takes Prednisone. Both are doing well so far, and I am keeping close tabs on them. I have told them they have to stay vigilant for at least another week, to not overdo things if they feel well in case this is Covid and they could end up letting the virus take over if they get run down. I tell them to drink a lot of water, eat well, rest, and cough strongly to get rid of secretions and keep their lungs clear. Even if they were tested and were positive, I would not want them to think they were immune since we don't know if the virus works that way. So either way they would just keep doing what they are doing.


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## gottatrot

For @Hondo, my friend showed me a meme that said:

"After all the crazy things I've done in my life, if I die from touching my face I'm going to be p*****!"


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## Hondo

RE: there is enough of the virus there to overcome your immune system?
Comment: I've wondered about this for a long time. I've sort of theorized that a healthy body can handle a certain amount of just about anything but too much would overcome it.



RE: We keep hand sanitizer in the truck so we can use it immediately after entering a business or shaking hands with someone.
Comment: Now why didn't I think of that? Duh. Problem solved.



RE: "After all the crazy things I've done in my life, if I die from touching my face I'm going to be p*****!" 

Comment: Ya got me. I've had many more than 9 lives. I doubt I'll ever touch my face again without remembering this quote. Not a very heroic way to die.


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## bsms

Saw this the other day and it made me laugh. Laughing in times like these is a good thing:










Not me! My eyes are brown....


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## gottatrot

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hilarious!

Amore got a new halter today from Countercanter designs on Etsy. They make nice rope halters. I'll have to get a photo soon before it gets dirty.

Tonight having ventilator patients and fun doing the whole suiting up for airborne precautions and Covid. Putting respirators on and off does not help the hairstyle and one's professional image begins to deteriorate. Good reason to keep the patients unconscious so they don't see what kind of a whacko was taking care of them.
Me when the respirator comes off...









Here's an opinion or two:
I was thinking today about the difference between concern and panic. Concern about a situation can be helpful, and allows a person to use logic and reason. Panic is never helpful. 

What I have seen around me is some people leaning toward panic with the pandemic situation. Mainly this has been family or coworkers. I have been trying to spread some cheer, laughter (a supervisor came on our unit and saw us laughing the other day and said that was the first time he had seen anyone smile in days), and decrease stress. I know some have been critical of those who they believe are taking the situation lightly, or making jokes about it. But as we've said at my work, if we did not have a dark sense of humor, we'd never survive as nurses. Without humor you really can't last when people are dying or behaving violently on a regular basis, and everything you do is looked over by many people with criticism every day. The criticism is a safety measure, but occasionally can be demoralizing.

An example of our humor is recently when a patient was trying to spit on us while we were putting the person into restraints for trying to hit and kick staff. Before we got a hood on, without warning this person sent a projectile straight at my face, but somehow I pulled out a move from the Matrix and whipped my hand in front of my face, catching the spit on my palm. Rather than being upset or stressed, we laughed about the ninja moves and people congratulated me for days. That is kind of the way you have to be.

Like some of you, I've done risky things in my life, and sometimes stupid things. Once I almost drowned swimming alone in the Columbia river when a storm whipped up and the waves got so big I couldn't get to the top of them to get breaths. I've been in a car that spun out of control on ice and went over an embankment. I've been in other near death situations. Like many of you, I've been on or around horses that got very dangerous and out of control. Bolting in a panic, stuck in fences, etc. 

What I've learned from these situations is that staying calm is vital. I've seen hospital staff in bad situations where people are suddenly bleeding to death or their heart stopped, and instead of staying calm the staff panic. It's fight, flight or freeze if you get into that state, and you don't want the person who is supposed to save your life to get into fight mode where they are too aggressive and begin making bad decisions, or to run away and hide (have seen people do this), or just stand there frozen (have seen this too). 

I've been around a lot of panicky type horses, and when they are in that state they are more likely to make stupid decisions and get hurt. It's the same with us. Interjecting logic and reason into situations where people are panicking, and positive things instead of only negative does not always mean the person is cold and heartless, but rather reducing stress and panic can be helpful and healthy.

Personally, wondering about the effects of the pandemic is helpful. Worrying and stressing about it will only raise your cortisol level and lower your immune system, which is something a person might need if they get exposed to a virus. I'm a wonderer and not a worrier myself. All my patients will get the best care I can give them, and just like we can't save all the horses, at least we can do our best for the ones in our little realm. I think it would be unreasonable to let fear prevent anything like that. Of course, this is my philosophy with horses too.


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## SueC

Thank you, @gottatrot; voices of reason are in the minority when the herd starts to bleat. 

You take good care. Here's something a friend with a similar disposition sent me today - you may not have heard it yet! 


_A male patient is lying in bed in the hospital ... wearing an oxygen mask over his mouth and nose. A young student nurse appears and gives him a partial sponge bath.

"Nurse,"' he mumbles from behind the mask, "are my testicles black?"

Embarrassed, the young nurse replies, "I don't know, Sir. I'm only here to wash your upper body and feet."

He struggles to ask again, "Nurse, please check for me. Are my testicles black?"

Concerned that he might elevate his blood pressure and heart rate from worrying about his testicles ... she overcomes her embarrassment and pulls back the covers.

She raises his gown, lifts his wedding tackle gently to do a visual on the testicles.

She looks very closely and says, "There's nothing wrong with them, Sir. They look fine."

The man slowly pulls off his oxygen mask ... smiles at her ... and says very slowly, "Thank you very much. That was wonderful. Now listen very, very closely: Are - my - test - results - back?” _


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## gottatrot

Keep the funnies coming!


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## egrogan

Here's a little work-from-home humor for those of us who are desk jockeys dealing with people who suddenly forgot how to use technology :rofl: (To be clear, this isn't my company, but we have had some similarly amusing moments...)


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## gottatrot

@egrogan that is so funny.

On another thread it was posted that since Italy had a mild flu season this year the deaths in elderly have not yet matched the deaths from their bad flu season three years ago. Which also makes me think of how I read the death certificates in Italy are relating all deaths in people positive for covid as covid deaths.

I don't think this is intentional dishonesty but is skewing our understanding of the disease so far. Meaning in a country where so many are exposed to a virus, a person may be a non symptomatic carrier which we hear are common, or have mild symptoms while meanwhile dying of one of the many other common causes of death such as heart failure, stroke or cancer.

Fo some in a very fragile state, getting a virus may push them over the edge. If that is a difference of weeks or months you could assign causality to the virus worsening comorbidities. But anything catastrophic like an occluded coronary artery, or someone on hospice with days to live, does not seem accurate.

People are still dying regularly from all causes.

Something concerning to me is also our treatment of the very elderly. Making it clear I don't personally think it is better for an older person to die of covid vs a younger. From what I have seen, people die from accidents or sudden cardiac arrest or cancer at all ages like animals do, and there is no agreement that we all are supposed to get a certain number of years.

That being said, at some point a person is closer to death than life, and this relates to physical health rather than an age. But once you are over 90 it is rare to not be in this state.

What has been happening is that these frail over 90 yr olds are being found in their homes near death, and although two months ago they would have said "Looks like a heart attack. At this age the kind thing would be to allow natural death," now they are wondering "What if it is coronavirus?" 

We can't have more coronavirus deaths, that would not be good. So they counsel that the person should be put on a ventilator and go through all the other various tortures that mean a person dies in pain among strangers rather than peacefully at home with family.

Of course after the fact it turns out their old heart really was just giving out or since they had barely been eating for months their malnutrition meant they couldn't handle falling and lying on the ground for six hrs.

I think we have to be careful to still look at the big picture of things, and also do what is most ethical and kind. For example my grandparents in their 90s were against having pain and suffering from heroic measures, and wanted the easy and gentle way out at home. Both were healthy until their last couple weeks of life, but when their time came they went fast. 

I hope to not hear of any 99 yr olds on ventilators, and that is not to save the vents for younger people, but to prevent a painful death.


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## Hondo

If a person has a known heart ailment, contracts covid-19, has a heart attack and dies, what did they die from?


Would they have had the heart attack if they had not contracted covid-19?


Probably impossible to tell. But it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe covid-19 pushed them over the edge. So if this were in fact the case, which of course again can't be really known, what killed them?


My thoughts would be since they would have lived if not contracting covid-19, the virus was in fact the cause of death.


It sounds like this may be the thinking involved with deaths in Italy where the patients are positive for covid-19. To me, not entirely unreasonable although there are likely people who would have died at the same time without the virus. But with the medical community over run in Italy as they are, how can they really tell without a lot of additional effort, which is not available?


Always happy to provide another angle


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## knightrider

I have learned more about covid 19 from reading Horse Forum than I have learned from reading all the news articles. Thank you everyone!


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## bsms

I suspect coronavirus is "the final straw" for many. Our friend who had it died yesterday shortly after they took him off the ventilator, without regaining consciousness. He had already outlived the expectations of the doctor who treated him for a severe heart attack 7 years ago. He had other health issues. But he died YESTERDAY because of the virus, versus maybe dying a week or 2 years from now due to a variety of health issues. Looking at the statistics, for many this virus hastens their death by some unknown amount.


> The 2003 European heat wave led to the hottest summer on record in Europe since at least 1540....Peer-reviewed analysis places the European death toll at more than 70,000....In France, 14,802 heat-related deaths (mostly among the elderly) occurred during the heat wave, according to the French National Institute of Health.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave
> 
> Nearly 1,500 deaths linked to French heat waves - CNN Updated 3:21 AM ET, Mon September 9, 2019
> 
> A pair of heat waves in France have been linked to the deaths of 1,435 people this summer by the country's health ministry. Two bouts of record-setting heat hit France and other parts of Europe from June 24 to July 7, and July 21 to July 27.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/08/europe/france-heat-wave-deaths-intl-hnk-scli/index.html


To an Arizona boy, that reads like science fiction. What it hasn't led to is a shutdown of Europe until air conditioning can be installed across the continent. As individuals, we can mourn deaths. As a society....the US population increases by 2 million a year. If 4 million Americans die abnormally soon in 2020, our end year population will match the end of 2018. We would lose the growth from 2019-2020.

Based on statistics, we should take strong steps to reduce social interactions with the elderly or infirm. That would include a lot of younger Americans. But I think it is reasonable to wonder what degree of precaution is needed, and where.








Commuting to work in NYC is very different than doing so in Phoenix. High density cities may need a different response - and a severe one - while Willcox AZ might have more options.








My normal daily life would be considered severe social distancing by a lot of city people. When I bought hay last week, I was briefly within 6 feet of another person - to run my credit card. Our small church has cancelled services through the end of April, although we hope to live-stream "services" by this Sunday. Working on that capability is a good thing and overdue anyways. We have several members in their 80s who have difficulty attending regularly and they are VERY interested in being able to take part remotely on a regular basis.

But....Virginia has issued a "stay at home" order through 10 June. That might even prove useful for some part of Arizona. We'll see. But not ALL of Arizona. I hope April will see Arizona discussing what restrictions are useful and which are too restrictive. Each passing week we learn more.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, I can concede that a person who had a 90% occluded left coronary artery and a change in blood flow from fighting covid that caused some plaque to move and obstruct the heart had their death hastened by covid. 

But there will be a number that are not related. For example, A person not feeling well overdoses on drugs trying to feel better. Covid suspected but a cold virus found. Would we say the cold virus killed her? If it were covid found I would not say that was direct causality. No one says the cold caused her death.
@bsms, sorry your friend passed away. 

I am hopeful this will cause awareness of how to keep diseases from spreading. I know it felt unsafe to ride in a crowded train in Chicago with people obviously inebriated or impaired, coughing. In Tokyo it felt very safe because those who had coughs wore masks and never faced others, even in crowded situations.

Peope in wyoming have been criticized because gps showed they were still driving around long distances. When we went there last year, it was a place you could be very alone at any time. In most of wyoming long distance driving is required regularly.

People are all staying away from others in my part of OR.


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## Hondo

I was just trying to give the Italian hospitals a little slack since it would seem they don't have the number of people to nail down with certainty what the Covid-19 patients actually died from. Unless it's really really simple to ascertain. 



It just seems that giving any time at all to determining the certifiable cause of death of a covid-19 patient would be time taken away from caring for a living patient.


But this is all from an uninformed person, a thinking person yes, but not even informed to the layman level.


This is my first experience with a covid-19 death beyond just reading the news. Consolations to all involved.


Pretty nice about the Japanese. Would be nice to be able to wear one without feeling self concious.


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## gottatrot

Good points. I read an interesting article about how we fought TB in the US.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...at-tb-could-be-a-boon-in-battling-coronavirus

TB by the early 1800s had killed 1 in 7 people who had ever lived. They think it killed a billion people between 1800 and 2000.

Thinking about what @bsms said about losing our new growth for the year in population...
We almost have a situation similar to the mustangs. No one wants to see them die, yet there is no plan and the growth is unsustainable. 

People would like to end war, violence and cure cancer, but then imagine the population. We would be packed together like sardines, up to our knees in garbage.

None of us want to die and I believe diseases are necessary.

I also feel a little offended personally that people have to be forced into social distancing. A part of me believes if we just educated people they could go about their normal lives behaving responsibly. 

But historically I realize this has never been true. Back to Bible times if people are left to do the right thing, the majority always fails.


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## Hondo

I had a cousin that had TB. He lived but was in quarantine for quite a spell. I can remember when it was a real fear.


That article was outstanding. And it does sound like those procedures are in the works and happening.


I have read that there are more people living today than have died. Yes, that's a curve that needs flattening.


Chickens, turkeys, pigs, and other animals that are raised in dense populations need lots and lots of medications and a lot of them die.


I personally saw this with chickens. When I was very young, the chickens were turned out everyday and driven back in every night. Density was medium but outside no density at all. 



Then the chicken houses became larger and larger and the density became higher and higher. The buildings had to be walked daily or more looking for dead chickens. There were always several a day even though they were medicated with airborne dust medication.


So yeah, I think something similar is happening to the human population. Industrialization seems to be putting the damper on population as most 'advanced' countries are below 2 births per couple.


The population density around me is around 1 person per 10 acres or so for a radius of 10 miles or so. But I'm not sure I'm safer than anyone else.


I read an article about the abuse people wearing masks often encounter. People coughing in their face etc.


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## gottatrot

That is really sad about people getting harassed over wearing masks. 

A housekeeper at work said, "I guess I should take my mask off since no one else is wearing one."
I told her she should do whatever made her feel safest, and that in Asia people wear masks just because they have a pimple or are feeling shy and no one gives a second look.

I think people should mask their kids that go around spewing viruses. Masks are a fine idea, but I believe those who are planning to recommend people wear them believe it will do more to contain those heavy spreaders who cough and sneeze everywhere than prevent the wearer from exposure. Just because so many people keep rubbing their eyes and noses, mask or not.


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## Hondo

Wh, Wh, What??!!


I remember with sadness and some dismay that the doctor in China who first blew the whistle was to perhaps be prosecuted but then died of the disease. I admit that the thought rumbled through my mind, "That's what happens in a dictatorship".


But now I just read that an Admiral has been relieved of his command of a 5,000 crew aircraft carrier for sounding an alarm about a Covid-19 outbreak. The official reason for Crozier's relief of duty is a loss of trust and confidence.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> I remember with sadness and some dismay that the doctor in China who first blew the whistle was to perhaps be prosecuted but then died of the disease. I admit that the thought rumbled through my mind, "That's what happens in a dictatorship".
> 
> But now I just read that an Admiral has been relieved of his command of a 5,000 crew aircraft carrier for sounding an alarm about a Covid-19 outbreak. The official reason for Crozier's relief of duty is a loss of trust and confidence.


 That is what happens when you embarrass your superiors publicly in our current society.. 

This pandemic is showing us a lot about a lot of things. I can only hope that some positive change results from it.


As a scary aside, this is the town closest to me, where I would normally do my grocery shopping, etc: Hazleton news article


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## Hondo

All the stuff says stay at home but the fine print says get out and get some exercise, fresh air, and visit nature. So that's confusing to some people. There are some that believe you must stay home, look straight ahead, and sit with your hands folded on your lap.


There needs to be some explaining to some people. The why, the who, the when, etc. That might help compliance.


Gottatrot got thru to me in one post. "Would you rub your eyes or face if there was horse poop on them?" I was sitting on a log watching Hondo graze thinking about that a little while ago. I thought, "If I could abstain with horse poop why not with possible viruses?".


And the history of tuberculosis that gottatrot posted. If there was a news commentary about that, or clip, or what ever way to get it out, that could be very convincing to a lot of people. There's still folks around that remember TB. They could spread the word. Part of the problem was officials in high places scoffing at the virus. Scoffers are dwindling by the day.


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## bsms

FWIW, TB was still common when I was in the Philippines. My wife and the son I adopted both had to go thru the treatment for latent tuberculosis. My years there caused me to test positive on the skin test, but they confirmed it was a false positive. It still exists in the USA - over 9,000 cases in 2018.


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## bsms

Very few people ever get to skipper a carrier. He was fired for going outside the chain of command. You do NOT go to the press and suggest one of our carrier is not mission capable! There were about a thousand ways he could have handled it, and 999 would have been better than what he did. Pilots flying off a carrier and the crews launching and recovering them are at risk of dying every flight. I had 6 flights under my belt the first time I watched a plane crash, and I was in the Air Force.

You accept risk in the military. The skipper of a carrier could, if he wanted, call WAY up the chain of command - in private. He had access to secure, TS level communications. He didn't use them. He deserved to be fired.


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## Hondo

To skipper the USS Theodore Roosevelt, the admiral undoubtedly absolutely knew all of this and more. He didn't get where he was without knowing it.


Given that, I seriously doubt that he would have done what he did without attempting the chain of command.


I've never seen the sleeping quarters on an aircraft carrier, but I slept many a night in the sleeping quarters of a 360 foot long destroyer whose main mission was to protect the aircraft carrier it traveled with.


Beds were a pipe frame with canvas stretched tightly and a 2 inch mattress on top. They were three deep. If the person above had not tightened the canvas recently, the person below might have to scrunch up their shoulders to turn over to avoid bumping the person above.


Tight quarters. No chance for personal distancing. Doubt that it could be too much better on a 5,000 member aircraft carrier but probably some.


When 50 or 100 people become infected under those circumstances, a dire emergency exists. I'm certain the medical team on the carrier spelled it out it detail.


I believe, and always will believe, that the admiral did try to protect his crew through proper channels and when he saw a slow walk begin in the channels, he made the clear decision to sacrifice his command for the safety of his crew.


Skippers don't skipper aircraft carriers without a huge dedication to the crew. Skippers go down with the ship. In a way, he went down with his ship.


I believe he deserves a medal of honor for the lives he saved. He knew he would be fired, but he knew a lot of his crew might die if he wasn't. About half the crew is now in isolation. If he had not acted, they'd still be on the ship.


The doctor that broke the news in China went out of the chain of command also. Glad he did and sorry he died. He deserves a medal also.


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## Hondo

Read a worrisome article in the Atlantic again this morning.


The article "expected" the virus to abate during the warm summer months. But they predicted that if testing, equipment, etc etc and social recognition of the problem wasn't ramped up during the interlude, when cold weather comes with the beginning of the regular flu season, "we ain't seen nothing yet".


That is, as they report, exactly what happened with the 1918 flu when millions died. They thought it was over in the summer but it was just sitting, waiting, and smiling.


The big thing the article stressed was that social distancing and the things being done now to flatten the curve would not be enough to avert a fall catastrophe. Along with testing, separation, and all that was done with TB, there had to be a significant wake up call across the entire nation to avert a significant fall crises, in the absence of some miracle production of treatment or vaccine.


Would not be a bad idea, methinks, to begin a personal strategy now for staying safe in the fall/winter if the above doesn't happen.


Quote: "This is what happened with the flu in 1918. The spring was bad. Over the summer, the numbers of sick dwindled and created a false sense of security. Then, all hell broke loose. In late 1918, tens of millions of people died."


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/how-we-beat-coronavirus/608389/


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## Hondo

One more and I'm done for the day.


For people who would like to have an effective mask where there are none to buy, found this on youtube. I ordered some Hepa Vacuum Bags to give it a try. Don't have a sewing machine so plan to use glue.


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## bsms

The military works different from civilian society. The chain of command goes in both directions. You cannot give orders and expect them to be obeyed unless you are also willing to obey orders you don't agree with. When a commander goes outside the chain of command, he loses all moral authority to be a commander.

"_About half the crew is now in isolation. If he had not acted, they'd still be on the ship._"

Extremely unlikely!

The military was working on a solution. I don't know the details, but 25 years in the military taught me we ALWAYS planned and responded. We did contingency plans for things that never happened. I had a number of calls telling me to stay home until XX hours, then come to work prepared to go somewhere. No details. And then be called a few hours later to say everything was back to normal and just come in.

If the skipper didn't like what he was being told, or even if he thought some of his men might die because of it, tough. HIS commanders had the right to give him orders. And everyone in the military has to accept that the orders of their superiors might get them killed. Might even be WRONG and get them killed. And then obey them.

Sorry to highjack @gottatrot's thread, but my Dad and all my uncles were in the military. My Dad died in Vietnam. I did 25 years in it. My three kids have all been in. My nephew is in, and my two nieces married military men. I've been given orders that I thought were needlessly risking my life. I objected. But when the orders were confirmed, I obeyed them. It is crucial to how the military functions. I find the skipper's behavior incomprehensible. But I won't comment any further on the issue.


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## phantomhorse13

Saw this on Facebook and it made me think of the discussion here:


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## gottatrot

@PhantomHorse, that is great.

Good discussion. I am hopeful by the fall we can check antibodies so people who are immune can help keep things running.


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## Hondo

Military moral authority? Would that be an oxymoron? Would allowing 5,000 crew members be slow walked to death for political reasons be the moral high ground? 



That is too funny phantomhorse. I copied and saved to my desktop for further use.


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## Hondo

FWIW, Brett Crozier did not go outside the chain of command and is not accused of doing so.


He wrote a letter to superiors which was leaked to the press. He is not accused of leaking the letter.


Here is a copy of the letter. I'd be proud to serve under him.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgxliYaRglzAyuXUrbQAFDYxCH5TE2sf/preview


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## gottatrot

I will mention a reason I felt confident the death rates for covid would end up close to flu's 0.1% (in the US) was that although China's initial death rate was high, the later reports were that the rates eventually tapered off to 0.1%.

From several official sources I read those stats and it was reasonable to believe that if China was achieving those rates, the health system in the US would do at least that well.

Some people were upset if covid was compared to the flu, but it was logical to consider that Italy and Iran have some other factors going on, and we should have been able to get our death rates down to similar to the flu, like China once they had more awareness of the new disease.

Now we are hearing that China was hiding information, which is not suprising. Oregon's death rate has been matching the overall US rate which last I checked was around 2.5%. I imagine this is a bit lower since we have limited testing, but might be close to 2%.

I find it interesting to consider what makes a virus more or less deadly. If a virus is too deadly, the spread is more limited, like with SARS and MERS. The cold coronaviruses are everywhere, but are rarely deadly. A virus that makes more people very sick is limited by the illness of the host, a quick hospitalization and a host too ill to travel around.

Covid is in an unusual spot where it kills quite a few people but leaves most able to get around and spread it. TB is like that too. Hopefully it is not taboo to compare this disease to TB..
All we have is other historical illnesses and our response to them to learn from.


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## bsms

I think the final number will come in at or below 1% mortality. I know two people who have had flu symptoms in the last 6 weeks who can't get tested because they are not that ill, so they have just been told to self-quarantine. Normal flu, however, doesn't normally take 4-6 weeks to recover from. One guy is still coughing stuff up after 6+ weeks. Not normal! But they are slowly improving so told there is no need to test them.

The wife of our friend who died, interestingly enough, tested negative. And he didn't agree to go to the hospital before he felt really weak.

Percentage of population with other health issues will also play in. Some states have very high obesity / diabetic / blood pressure issues. Those states will have more problems. Right now, I'm very glad intermittent fasting & a somewhat keto-ish approach has allowed me to go off my blood pressure medicine. It is running around 115/75 now without medicine versus 130/85 with medicine. After riding and weedwhacking yesterday, my blood pressure was 107/70...lower than I'd like, but it sure beats when it was 155/110!


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## bsms

Said I'd keep quiet about this, but this seemed pertinent to the military discussion:

"“[Acting Navy Secretary Thomas] Modly is the responsible, accountable official to the American people. And he had reason to believe that the captain operated outside the chain of command and he relieved him,” [Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff] Milley told Fox News’s Outnumbered Overtime on Friday....

Modly said Crozier had cc’ed more than 20 people, including some outside the chain of command, over unsecured and unclassified systems, assuring the memo’s leak.

He also said Crozier did not speak to his direct superior, carrier strike group commander Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, about his concerns before sending the memo, despite Baker being on the carrier and living within feet of Crozier.

Modly said Crozier was not fired for expressing concerns, but the way he chose to do so."

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ve-crozier-operated-outside-chain-of-command/


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## Hondo

There was an article about an antibody test that can be used by smartphones to be available in a couple of months. One finger ***** of blood at home then send results over the phone to medical with results in an hour or two.


One thing that seemed confusing was that if there were flu symptoms and the test was positive for Covid-19 antibodies, then the assumption would be that the person was positive for Covid-19 allowing the test to be a back door way to test for Covid-19.


But other articles said it takes a few weeks to develop antibodies. So would that mean that the person with the symptoms had been positive for Covid-19 for several weeks?


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## Hondo

I read Crozier's letter a couple of times. And I read Modley's lengthy comments which included the downplay of the seriousness of the situation aboard the ship.


From the way Crozier's letter was written and some of the statements made, I got the clear impression that the letter was not the first attempt by Crozier to get help with the virus problem of spreading. When it was obvious that no help would be forthcoming from Modley, Crozier intentional put his career on the line knowing he would likely loose his commission but that at the same time the crew would receive the treatment he felt they deserved. Above and beyond honor.


In one statement, Modley said Crozier had put the Navy in a bad light. It was Modley who was put in a bad light.


Modley is not qualified for the position he is in. He received it by default. Hes predecessor was fired for prosecuting a soldier for posing with the corpse of an enemy as if he had just made a deer kill. Modley was chosen as a person who would see that as acceptable behavior by our military which it is not. That is not who we have been and hopefully will not be who we become.


We'll likely never hear about the conversations with superiors that took place prior to the letter. Modley would never admit it and Crozier is too professional to comment on it.



I fully support all of the boots on the ground but there is beginning to be a scary collection of the men upstairs. Bretbart news? Oh dear!


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## bsms

"*Crozier did not speak to his direct superior, carrier strike group commander Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, about his concerns before sending the memo, despite Baker being on the carrier and living within feet of Crozier.*"

That isn't heroic. It is gross insubordination and stupidity. And no one in the Navy chain of command would ignore coronavirus on one of our carriers! They might CHOOSE to accept some young and otherwise healthy sailors getting sick in exchange for keeping the carrier on active patrol. They might choose a partial crew swap-out. Don't know. Those discussions would and should be classified. But there is no possibility the Navy was ignoring the problem!

BTW - The F-111 had a known safety problem with the ejection capsule. It weighed too much for the parachutes and sometimes broke the backs of crew members when it impacted the ground. No cost-effective solution, so we flew them like that. We just accepted the risk. It goes with being in the military.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> "*Crozier did not speak to his direct superior, carrier strike group commander Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, about his concerns before sending the memo, despite Baker being on the carrier and living within feet of Crozier.*"



And you actually know this? I am very impressed!


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## Hondo

Since Bretbart was mentioned we gottta keep it fair and balanced.

*Opinion | Captain Crozier Is a Hero*



In Opinion Tweed Roosevelt writes: 'Captain Crozier joins a growing list of heroic men and women who have risked their careers over the last few weeks to speak out about life-threatening failures to treat the victims of this terrible pandemic.'
Theodore Roosevelt , my great-grandfather, would agree.


https://headtopics.com/us/opinion-captain-crozier-is-a-hero-12246868


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> And you actually know this? I am very impressed!


"_Modly charged that by having "widely distributed" a letter highly critical of the management of a coronavirus outbreak that has sickened more than 100 of the Roosevelt's crew members, Crozier had "allowed emotion" to color his judgment and that the captain's letter "was sent outside the chain of command" by failing to alert his immediate supervisor, strike wing commander Rear Adm. Stuart Baker._"

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...er-criticizing-handling-of-coronavirus-outbre

"_As a flag officer, Baker served as Director, Operations and Plans, for the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, N31. He assumed his current duties in June 2019 and is privileged to command the Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group, which consists of over 7,000 Sailors across the carrier air wing and eight ships, including USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71), USS Bunker Hill (CG 52), and Destroyer Squadron 23._ "

https://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ccsg9/Pages/bio1.aspx

Doesn't seem to be in dispute. By itself, it is more than adequate grounds to can the skipper. 

BTW: "_Tweed Roosevelt (born February 28, 1942)[1] is the great-grandson of President Theodore Roosevelt via Roosevelt's son Archibald Bulloch Roosevelt, and his son Archibald (Jr). He is Chairman of Roosevelt China Investments, a Boston firm....During the late 1960s, Roosevelt became active in the movement against the Vietnam war and participated in the 1967 march on the Pentagon._" - Wiki

He has ZERO military experience. None. Nada. Zip. Every male (and two females) in 3 generations of my family has more military experience than he does. But this time I really will call it quits on this discussion!


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## Hondo

Read the entire article. TR did EXACTLY what Crozier did only worse. He personally sent his complaint about sick soldiers dying for no reason directly to the newspapers. And he got results just as Crozier did.


TR's gotta be smiling down on Brett saying, "You did my ship proud".




The article:


In Opinion Tweed Roosevelt writes: 'Captain Crozier joins a growing list of heroic men and women who have risked their careers over the last few weeks to speak out about life-threatening failures to treat the victims of this terrible pandemic.'
Theodore Roosevelt , my great-grandfather, would agree.
By Tweed Roosevelt Mr. Roosevelt is a great-grandson of Theodore Roosevelt and the chairman of the Theodore Roosevelt Institute at Long Island University. April 3, 2020, 3:16 p.m. ET Capt. Brett Crozier addressing the crew of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt during a change of command ceremony on the ship’s flight deck, in San Diego, CA, last year. Credit... US Defense Video & Imagery Distribution System/EPA, via Shutterstock On Monday, Capt. Brett Crozier, the commander of the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, sent a letter to the Navy pleading for permission to unload his crew, including scores of sailors sickened with Covid-19, in Guam, where it was docked. The Pentagon had been dragging its feet, and the situation on the ship was growing dire. “We are not at war,” he wrote. “Sailors do not need to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset — our sailors.” After the letter was leaked to The San Francisco Chronicle, the Navy relented. But on Thursday, it relieved Captain Crozier of his command. Captain Crozier joins a growing list of heroic men and women who have risked their careers over the last few weeks to speak out about life-threatening failures to treat the victims of this terrible pandemic. Many of them are doctors and nurses, and many of them, like Captain Crozier, have been punished. All of them deserve our deepest gratitude. In removing Captain Crozier, the Navy said that his letter was a gross error that could incite panic among his crew. But it’s hard to know what else he could have done — the situation on the Theodore Roosevelt was dire. Ships at sea, whether Navy carriers or cruise ships, are hotbeds for this disease. Social distancing is nearly impossible: The sailors are practically on top of one another all day, in crowded messes, in cramped sleeping quarters and on group watches. It is thought that a sailor caught the virus while on shore leave in Vietnam. Once on board, the virus took its now predictable course: First a sailor or two, then dozens, and all of a sudden more than 100 were sick. Captain Crozier received orders to take the ship to Guam, but he was not given permission to offload most of the sailors. The virus was threatening to overwhelm the small medical crew aboard. There was not much time before sailors might start dying. The captain felt he had to act immediately if he was to save his sailors. He chose to write a strong letter, which he distributed to a number of people within the Navy, demanding immediate removal from the ship of as many sailors as possible. Perhaps this was not the best approach for his career, but it got results. The letter, once leaked to The Chronicle, quickly reappeared in papers nationwide. The immediate public pressure forced the Navy to relent, and it started arranging to get as many of the crew members as possible off the ship and into hotels in Guam. Captain Crozier, however, paid a big price. The acting secretary of the Navy, Thomas Modly, summarily fired the captain, not for leaking the letter (for which he said he had no proof), but for showing “extremely poor judgment.” Many disagree, believing that Captain Crozier showed excellent judgment. He left the ship Thursday night to a rousing hero’s sendoff. I suppose it is too much to hope that the Navy, if only for its own benefit, will see its way to reverse this unfortunate decision. But it is probably too late to save Captain Crozier’s career. As a descendant of the namesake of Captain Crozier’s former command, I often wonder, in situations like this, what Theodore Roosevelt would have done. In this case, though, I know exactly what he would have done. In 1898, he found himself in almost the exact same position. Before his rise to national politics, Roosevelt commanded the Rough Riders, a volunteer cavalry regiment, in the invasion of Cuba during the Spanish-American War. The Battle of San Juan Hill had been fought and won, and the war was basically over. However, the soldiers, still deployed in Cuba, faced a far worse enemy: yellow fever and malaria. As was usual in the days before modern medicine, far more soldiers died of disease than of enemy action. The battlefield commanders, including Roosevelt, wanted to bring the soldiers home. But the leadership in Washington — in particular Russell Alger, the secretary of war — refused, fearing a political backlash. A standoff ensued. The career Army officers, who did not want to risk their jobs by being too outspoken, were stymied. Roosevelt, as a short-term volunteer, had less to lose. So, with the tacit approval of his fellow commanders, he wrote a fiery open letter and released it to the press. The letter, known as the “round robin,” was printed in virtually every newspaper in the country, creating an uproar demanding that the soldiers be brought home immediately. Alger relented, and the troops were sent to quarantine on the end of Long Island, at Montauk Point. Though hundreds of men died of disease in Cuba, Roosevelt’s actions probably saved countless more. He did, however, pay a price. Alger was furious with him. When Roosevelt’s nomination came up for a Medal of Honor, the secretary shot it down (Roosevelt eventually received the medal, posthumously, in 2001). Of course, Roosevelt came out the winner. Who today remembers Russell Alger? In this era when so many seem to place expediency over honor, it is heartening that so many others are showing great courage, some even risking their lives. Theodore Roosevelt, in his time, chose the honorable course. Captain Crozier has done the same. Tweed Roosevelt, a great-grandson of Theodore Roosevelt, is a university professor and the chairman of the Theodore Roosevelt Institute at Long Island University. The Times is committed to publishing Read more: The New York Times


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## gottatrot

My job is almost the opposite of the military. If the military was run like an ICU, it wouldn't work out very well and not much would get done.

We are given orders, but also are made responsible for everything. So rather than following orders and going up a chain of command if we disagree, we evaluate every order and make sure we agree with it before acting on it.

It sounds like in the military they tell you to fly to a certain height and you do. If that happened in an ICU, the nurse would first make sure they knew the reason for flying, would make sure the weather was appropriate, make sure the timing of the flight was correct, and then want to know the goal that getting to that height would achieve. 

The doctor says "give this medication." The nurse is responsible to check if the patient is allergic, if there are side effects that would make this medication unsafe for this particular patient, if the patient can swallow that medication, and if the medication is actually indicated for the particular condition. They also have to be responsible to know if the doctor ordered a safe dose. Needless to say, we often call and ask more questions about orders before agreeing to follow them. 

We also have the ability to decline to follow orders (within reason) without getting in trouble. I was once given an order to inject a solvent into a person, one that was used for cleaning and had never been studied or approved to put into a human. When I questioned, the doctor said he felt it would work out well. I told him he could feel free to inject whatever he wanted into his patient, but I and my coworkers would have to decline. At that point he decided not to inject the solvent. 

That being said, we do have to follow certain channels if we disagree with orders. If the doctor will not relent, then we talk to a supervisor. If the supervisor thinks the order is wrong and the doctor will not listen to the supervisor, we go to a manager. There are other levels above that. But we can't just disagree and then go call the medical director for the hospital. That would get us into trouble. We also can't walk off the job if we disagree (when we have a patient assignment), or decide not to care for a patient. We can, however, say we will not take an assignment we are not trained for or feel is unsafe. For example, if I came to work and they said I had been assigned eight Covid patients (2 per RN is a safety standard in ICUs) and we were out of masks, I would decline to take the assignment. A hospital could try to fire someone for that kind of thing, but they would most likely get into trouble and my license would be supported. If I agreed to take the assignment, I would be responsible for any poor outcomes.

I can relate everything in life back to horses. It's like how there are so many horses out there in feedlots and neglect situations, and you can't do anything about that but you can give a great life to the horses you have. One of the respiratory therapists was feeling apprehensive about getting a lot of Covid patients. We had just one, and I told him that my philosophy was that all we had to do was worry about this one. I told him it wasn't up to us to worry about all the other patients in all the other situations. This was our patient, and we had a good ventilator and lots of supplies, and everything we needed. So at least this one would receive excellent care.

Many other people on here spoil their old horses. Amore is just beyond spoiled. She stands at her gate when I get to the barn and hollers at me so I will come and bring her out. Then we go down to the lower barn so she can stand and eat her supplements, and get brushed. Then she gets moved from one fine patch of grass to another as I bring her to graze close to where I am warming up Hero, and then after we go back to the barn to saddle him, we find another nice field where she can graze while I ride. It's like a smorgasbord of grazing, and she feels very entitled to it. 

On a day like today when I have to go to work instead, the horse are very disappointed. Amore gave up and went back to her hay but Hero was pressed against his gate staring after me when I walked away down the hill. Of course he gets a lot of grazing too, and I give a break between grooming, warmup, riding, and then also let them wander in a super lush paddock after riding, so they would like to do that every day if they could. They want me to feel sorry for them even though they are out in big paddocks and pasture, with buddies all around 24/7.


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## Knave

I really liked that post.


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## bsms

Yes, the military IS very different from many civilian jobs. Discipline and a thousand - or 20,000 - acting as one wins. Not every time, but far more often than not acting as one. Within the limits of your orders, one is expected to use initiative, creativity and skill. But there isn't time for debate, discussion or coordination for everyone.

I often worked the "mission planning cell" overnight in exercises. The folks who would fly the missions the next day slept while a team of us planned everything. Once the fliers arrived, they had a few minutes to organize and then briefed their first mission. Then went to fly it. They didn't have to like the munitions I had maintenance load on the airplanes. Maybe they were NOT the ideal munitions, but a lack of a certain type of fuse might drive what was available to drop. Someone was building the bombs during the night. So during the night, we tried for the best solution we could figure out and the aircrew coming in the door had to trust us.

I spent a year working real world contingency plans and logistics. In a professional military, logistics often decides the battle. Rommel may have been a great general, but he lost North Africa in direct proportion to the logistic support. Montgomery wasn't successful in North Africa because he was a better general than the guy he replaced. He won because the USA had finally delivered a lot of superior tanks to his army after shipping them 10,000 miles.

I don't know what constraints affect the Navy's response - or perceived lack thereof - regarding the carrier. That discussion was largely handled using classified, secure communication. Some of it could have been top secret. Or not. The skipper's problem was that he discussed his ideas using unsecure email to a lot of folks outside his chain of command and didn't even talk to the Admiral about it. And BTW, he had already been told the acting SecNav's direct number in case he wanted to talk. And yes, there are ways to discuss classified on military phones.

Many years ago, in the Philippines, terrorists attacked the military. The guy who lived across the street from me was killed. A guy I went to church with was gunned down. A guy in our squadron had his car shot to pieces. They missed him but did manage to put a bullet hole through his headrest from left to right. A few days later, I was told to drive an Air Force blue truck thru the scene of the attacks, in heavy traffic, to go do some work about 30 miles away. I pointed out they might as well put a sign on the truck saying, "Shoot me!" They wouldn't even give me a handgun. They told me the US was staying and continuing operations and I was in part a symbol of American resolve. Great! Just what I wanted to be - an American symbol driving alone and unarmed thru the area where people had been killed a couple days before.

Oh well. I went. Happily I wasn't shot. But my bosses were willing to take the chance. A decision had been made on how we would respond. So I stayed alert, tried to keep my very limited options open - and went. That is the way the military has to work. I couldn't insist on seeing any classified information behind the decision. I made my objection. Was told, "Here are the keys." And I went.

Without knowing a lot of stuff I'll never know, I don't know why the skipper didn't get the support he wanted. Maybe his commander simply DISAGREED with him. Oh well. A carrier task force doesn't work by consensus. People above the skipper decide where it goes, why it goes and how it goes. If that means risking some peoples' lives, well, it always does! The skipper is welcome to object to orders using classified systems. He is NOT welcome to discuss it with friends and coworkers on unclassified email, and certainly not without talking to the Admiral who lives next to him on the ship!

BTW, I get angry when folks (not you, gottatrot) think the military is filled with robots. I'm a pretty eccentric thinker. I question almost everything, often, including myself. Most of the folks in a fighter squadron are very smart and pretty creative. 


> "Fighter pilots’ brains are “wired” differently suggests new research from the UK that used cognitive tests and MRI scans to show there are significant differences in the white matter connections between brain regions of fighter pilots compared to a group of healthy volunteers with no flying experience. ...
> 
> Husain told the press they were interested in pilots because they often have to perform at the limits of human cognitive capability, “they are an expert group making precision choices at high speed”, often in the presence of conflicting clues...."
> 
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/211651#1
> 
> "The study found that the range of IQs in the fighter pilot community is no different than those of the tanker, airlift, or bomber communities. (Yes, there are those not so far to the right of the IQ spectrum in each of the flying communities.) What the study found, however, was that there is a higher concentration of people with high IQs in the fighter community than in other aviation career fields – the mean IQ in the fighter world is a full standard deviation higher....
> 
> She cited a 2005 study in which it was found that fighter pilots tend to average higher scores than other USAF pilots in the following areas: Assertiveness, Activity, and Achievement Striving. Fighter pilots tended to score lower in Agreeableness, Self-Consciousness, Vulnerability, and Warmth than pilots of other airframes."
> 
> The Fighter Pilot Personality - Tally One
> 
> "Results from this study show that USAF fighter pilots typically have Superior cognitive ability as compared to the general population. Additionally, they are likely to have relative strengths in Information and Digit Symbol, and a relative weakness in Picture Arrangement. With regard to emotional stability, USAF fighter pilots may be described as friendly and outgoing, but assertive. They may have a tendency toward superficial conversation and it may be difficult for them to show compassion or empathy for other people. They may be likely to enjoy verbal challenges and heated discussions. They may enjoy a fast-paced life and seek excitement. They are not likely to be anxious or depressed and have higher self-worth and are goal directed to achieve, especially looking for new intellectual endeavors."
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/139a/9a17abd4aeb0c5dcb5c2b7ed868138a1747f.pdf


That said, fighter pilots are also drilled in discipline. You cannot be successful in air combat without also being able to accept orders. A great movie available for free on Amazon:






Entire movie on YouTube:


----------



## Hondo

Theodore Roosevelt clearly and intentionally acted in insubordination to save as many of those under his command as possible from the ravages of malaria. His moral convictions overrode the directives he received. 



Theodore Roosevelt eventually became president and now has as aircraft carrier named after him. Two things that very few achieve.


Following orders that marginalizes one's own safety is one thing, but following orders that needlessly endangers others is another thing altogether.


Following orders to do something that is illegal can and has resulted in court-martial. "I was just following the order of my superior" just doesn't cut it there.


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## Knave

Very interesting concepts... I personally am one to always follow orders, but I prefer the ability to do so without the management of how. I think that is because I always follow orders. However, I am not a nurse, so I think it a great mentality there to be able to disagree with an order.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> BTW, I get angry when folks (not you, gottatrot) think the military is filled with robots. I'm a pretty eccentric thinker. I question almost everything, often, including myself. Most of the folks in a fighter squadron are very smart and pretty creative.


Yes, I was not meaning to imply any kind of lower level cognition was involved in following orders. The military is full of many systems and thoroughly thought out processes. There has to be some trust in the processes. It is just different from what I do, that's all. Mainly I was attempting to think through the discussion at hand, based on a very different kind of work experience.

My older brother is a mechanical engineer. He's very intelligent and yet has to be more of a rule follower as an engineer. Similar to the military, an error in judgment does not mean one person dies, but dozens, hundreds or even thousands if a stadium collapses or something explodes. 
There are solid reasons behind the rules and processes and tedious attention to detail. 

Something that is different about the medical field is that there is lot more "practicing," and individuals making decisions rapidly based on changing conditions. You can't just apply a rule to a human body, because things are always changing and everyone responds differently to treatments. All of the parts are less predictable, so it requires a different approach.

Also I have worked with a few ex-military nurses, and they have had some of the most flexible and creative minds. Sometimes I have been envious of the experiences and things they were able to learn, since in the military there are less restrictions on what nurses are allowed to do. Some I have worked with had put in central lines, sutures, and done other interesting things that require being at least a nurse anesthetist outside of the military.


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## SueC

Hullo, @gottatrot! :wave: Thinking of you - and the work you are doing. Look after yourself too. :bowwdown:


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## gottatrot

Thanks @ Suec! Same to you.

Been having some great horse time. 
I've been thinking about how Hero is the first horse I've had that needs to be lunged before working. If I'd known this earlier it would have helped.

With the Arabs I only lunged to give them a little exercise when I couldn't ride, or to evaluate soundness. It would be useless to try to take an edge off their boundless energy.

Hero also does not wear out, I've learned. However, he has a different nature. He is like opening a box with packing peanuts on top. Sometimes there are more peanuts, sometimes less. If I lunge Hero before working him, the packing peanuts come bursting out, with bucking, squealing, kicking, spooking. Then maybe there will be one or two stuck somewhere in the box, but mostly just the substance of the package.

If I don't lunge Hero and try to work him, it's like the packing peanuts come out one or two at a time, and keep coming, so I have to deal with them continuously.

Yesterday Hero was bursting with peanuts and spooked, knocking his knee into me when I had him tied. Then I went to brush him and he gave my arm a chomp. After reprimanding him, I saw he could not settle so turned him in the round pen where he squealed and wreaked havoc for ten minutes. Then I took him on a walk with Amore and he was docile as could be. 

Once back in his own pen, Hero came over and wanted attention. I discovered he likes a game where I grab his upper lip/nose and wiggle it back and forth. This makes him wiggle his lower lip and chew, and if I stop he puts his head in for more. 

Buddy and Leo, two geldings that are out together in the day but in separate paddocks at night were cracking me up.

Leo is bossy normally. Buddy was pulling on a rope on the fence, which made the board squeak. This infuriated Leo, who came rushing over to chase Buddy away from the rope. Buddy would wait until Leo started walking away, and then pull on the rope again, so Leo would come rushing back. Over and over.


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## Hondo

Would I be correct to conclude the chomp on the arm was soft enough to not ever leave a bruise? But with the actual teeth and not the lips?


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## Hondo

Also wondering what you think would happen to Hero's early energy if he had more 24/7 room. Know that's not possible for him and many others, just wondering if it was similar to the energy seen when gradeschoolers get turned out side after being inside for a time.


Just wondering if lunging would be necessary under those circumstances.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Also wondering what you think would happen to Hero's early energy if he had more 24/7 room. Know that's not possible for him and many others, just wondering if it was similar to the energy seen when gradeschoolers get turned out side after being inside for a time.
> 
> 
> Just wondering if lunging would be necessary under those circumstances.


Hero's day pasture that he shares with Amore is about 3 acres. His night paddock he has been in for a few months now is about a half acre. So he is never shut into an enclosed area per se, having more space in his night field than many horses have at any time. He can definitely run inside his night field if he wants to. I have wondered sometimes what he would be like if he were put into a stall, or fed grain, probably very, very difficult. 

The chomp on my arm definitely was a hard chomp, I had a fairly thick jacket on and it left a good bruise. 
Some people would think a horse biting like that would mean no one had ever given him a hard enough reprimand, one where he thought he might die. 
Some people would think a horse biting like that would mean they didn't have a good relationship or bond with their owner.

To the first, I would say that my experience a horse like Hero can and will go at it so hard with other horses, that he has been seriously injured, and that will not stop him from doing it again. Even if I hit him with a chain (which I would never do) and took a bunch of hide off, I believe that it would not deter him from doing something like bite when he gets all worked up. 

That being said, I have learned from watching horses that they can warn, they can try to injure "lightly," they can injure and "not care" if the other creature is killed, or they can seriously try to kill. When a horse wants to kill, it is likely to happen. When Hero bit me, it was in his mind a warning, somewhat self-protective because he was in no mood to be distracted from his heightened state. He was not trying to injure badly as I've seen horses do when kicking dogs in the head, not necessarily trying to kill but not trying NOT to kill either. When trying to kill, horses turn on the animal and slash and grab with their teeth, stomp, and smash. 

Hero will go to the level with Amore sometimes of a "light" kick or bite, and I've never seen her with hide missing or injured. Sometimes she does run away from him though. Sometimes she also kicks him pretty hard. They are good friends. Being "not friends" with Hero would be less fun, because then I don't think he would pull his punches. 

When I arrive to see the horses, Hero always gives me a nicker. Obviously he is pleased to see me. He works well for me, once I get his energy level more manageable. 

I believe there are all kinds of personalities. I've heard of TB stallions that had bad or vicious temperaments. Does Hero have a "bad" temperament? No, he has a unique one. His coping mechanisms involve lashing out when he is stressed or in distress. He manages emotional energy poorly. Gradually he is learning to do better with these things. Does Amore have a "better" temperament? She is sweet and appears benevolent to humans, nearly all of the time. She required exactly one reprimand to learn not to bite humans. Still, if you look at Amore deeper, she is a pretty self-involved horse. She is not as interested in coming to stand and hang out with people, being more into eating. If you find a good way to scratch an itch, she's good with that. Hero is actually more interested in seeing what people are doing, and trying to engage. 

The Dalmatian I had was so energetic that he would become a destructive force of nature if not exercised properly. There is an element of this in both Arabians and TBs. How that energy comes out can be different. It might seem easier to deal with if a horse is just bouncing and snorting, but light on the lead, like most Arabs. But Hero is the same energy just in a different format. 

I wrote something that I am starting to believe in. If a horse is easy to shape in a direction, it is because that is the way their nature is and they were tending that way already. This we see in the magical transformations of horses that trainers exhibit. If we are trying to change a horse from deeply embedded habits, there will be no quick changes and some things may never be fixed completely. To me it is less about making a difficult horse a perfect citizen, which might be impossible, and more about making them manageable.


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## gottatrot

Yesterday I wanted to ride Hero in a certain field at the top of a hill. Amore settled into grazing nearby, and I walked Hero and let him out on the lunge line before riding. He did not want to go near the edge of the hill, and we could not see over the top. I kept trying to push him over there, but he kept reversing. Finally, I gathered up the lunge line and went to walk him over to the edge so he could see for himself there was nothing down the hill to worry about.

Hero was reluctant and I had to really convince him to walk over to the edge. When we got close, I was surprised to see a very large cow elk was lying in the grass, just over the edge. She was panting and every once in a while making a squeak, so I think she was working on having an Easter calf. Horses must think we are so dumb, not noticing things that must be so obvious to them, such as a elk having a baby nearby. 

Once we'd seen the elk, things were easier, but Hero still did not want to go over to that side of the field when I was riding him. That seemed reasonable to me. Amore also became a little perturbed about the elk noises, and every once in awhile she would lift up her head and come trotting over to us. Hero was very well behaved under saddle, even though I could now and then feel his heart pounding under my leg and feel him taking in deep sniffs to make sure all was safe.


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## Hondo

Excellent response and explanation to my quires. 3 acres is quite a bit of room and 1/2 acre is a lot lot more than a stall.


I muse that perhaps Hero is still operating under his original name?



Having Roman whose antics I believe stand up to any Dalmatian has helped me somewhat in understanding the breadth, width, a variation of both the equine and canine mind.


Funny about the elk. How many people say a horse is just being silly or stupid when they want to stop and stare into what is perceived as the distant emptiness?


Pretty respectful in a way not to want to cause additional stress to an elk in labor. That's a nice gene. Not sure humans have that one.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I've heard of TB stallions that had bad or vicious temperaments. Does Hero have a "bad" temperament? No, he has a unique one.


 I worked at a place that inherited a vicious TB stallion with a newly purchased property. He lived in an acre double-fenced paddock with view of other horses, but everything set up so that humans rarely had to go in with him. When he did need to be handled or something attended to IN his paddock, it involved multiple people with pitch forks - the metal kind. He knew what those were and would stay back if you were holding one. The original owners were breeding that animal.. the people I worked for wound up euthanizing him after he savaged a maintenance guy who didn't listen to warnings not to go in with him.


I sincerely hope I never encounter such a horse ever again. Hero is certainly not what I would consider vicious!!


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Hero is certainly not what I would consider vicious!!



Agreed. Sounds more like a rascal than anything else.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Agreed. Sounds more like a rascal than anything else.


Yes! You are both quite right I think.


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## bsms

I dunno....I've got a LOT of books on horses and riding, and almost every one of them assumes a horse is a piece of wood that can be carved any way the rider wants....

Are you sure you shouldn't just "Get a bigger whip!"? 

< / sarcasm >​
The other day I asked a friend, "*What if everything you've ever been told is wrong?*" A reasonable response would be, "_EVERYTHING? Then we are in heap deep doo-doo!_" But once in a while, all of us need to adopt some severe skepticism and challenge our assumptions - and the assumptions we have been taught, often by well-meaning people who themselves have never really questioned anything.

I often find myself torn with Bandit. Many times I really would like a "Nike Horse" - "Just Do It!" But when I go out in the morning to toss them some hay, I kind of like the cheerful individual I meet...and I don't think he'd be as deep down cheerful if I was shaping him to meet my mind's eye picture of the Perfect Horse. In fact, I think deep down he already believes he IS "The Perfect Horse"! :rofl: :wave:


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## gottatrot

^^^Great post! 
I think if I could talk to Hero also, and explain the ways I would like him to change, he would say "Change? There's nothing wrong with ME."


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## gottatrot

Sometimes it entertains me to think about things in reverse. Like Hero explaining to his buddies. "I didn't like to do it, but she was so stubborn today that I had to really reprimand her hard. Ask, tell, demand is what I say. She just wouldn't listen to the lighter cues so I finally had to bite her."


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## Knave

That is particularly funny to me today because I was doing that! I was mad at Zeus. Seriously annoyed and at my limit, and I started to say the things he would be saying to the other horses. Little girl joined in, and the two horses complained about me. Lol


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## gottatrot

Last night I saw something I hadn't seen before. After putting the horses back in their pen after grazing, Amore was standing close to Hero and began nuzzling and grooming along his back. Hero just stood there looking at me, so I wiggled his nose so he would get the idea. Then he turned to Amore and began biting her hair along her side. It was a poor attempt at mutual grooming but he was trying at least, just biting the hair gently with his teeth. 

We have been trying to be optimistic about our wish to move to a small town down the coast. It is very attractive to us, seeming to be like where we live but back in time, before so many people moved here. The biggest obstacle has been a lack of good horse boarding. Just before Covid broke out, we went to the city that is an hour inland from the coastal town, and looked at many boarding options. There were a couple possibilities, but none where I would want to leave my horses and not see them for days at a time, and an hour each way is a long drive.

This week I contacted someone regarding an ad online. This person was looking for pasture board. It turns out she is a barefoot trimmer, has a horse and two minis, and was able to find 19 acres to rent only a few minutes outside of the town where we want to live. She would be willing to feed my horses along with hers if I paid her, so I am hopeful this might be a situation that would work out. The property owners are willing to put up shelters, if we would cross fence off smaller fields for our horses. Hopefully soon I can travel down to check out the property and meet the people involved to see if they seem trustworthy. 

I've been helping my sister on her farm, putting up an outdoor chicken run that is safe from predators. We made it very big, 20 ft by 20 ft or so and the holes are so small not even a rat can get in. I thought she was planning to have the chickens out at night sometimes, otherwise maybe I wouldn't have been so thorough. Oh well, she can use it for any kind of small critter and have them safe from eagles and such. 








Her cows have flowering trees in their field.








She has reserved a Red Heeler puppy from this litter that will be coming in a couple of months. So cute!









Had a great ride on Hero yesterday. I told DH that even though Hero sometimes has his moments, I can say that he is having more days and more prolonged periods of time where he is very well behaved than he used to.


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## SueC

Good to get a potential option for horse board lined up for your desired move, @gottatrot!  ...are you going to miss your present house? Or can't you wait to get away from whatever problems it has, into something without those problems? (Or something in-between? ;-))

Very cute little sausages, errrr, puppies there! 

How's work - or is it like, "Don't ask!"?

...miraculously, it's flattening out well here. Had my flu shot this afternoon and my GP says what they're worrying about is the size of the second wave of infection that will eventually happen here. They hope it will be smaller than ICU capacities - although they're really increasing capacity at the moment. Good news here is that cold and flu are now way down as well at the moment. I so hope that the improved hygiene practices will stay with people, because I sure don't like getting the colds and flus people generously share around by going to work with them, even if they're less dangerous - they're never fun. And it would be great if people would from henceforth not sneeze or cough in the open, pandemic or not... and cover themselves with a mask if they do go out in public with a cold or flu, yadda yadda...

Wishing you all the best for your projected move and for what must be a crazy work life at the moment! :bowwdown:


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## gottatrot

Thanks, @SueC!
I like our house and wish we could just pick it up and move it. Oh well, change is good.

There is so little covid here...we have had six cases in our county and none needed to be hospitalized.

Our hospital system has been sending out messages saying heart disease and stroke admissions are way down across the country although they know they are still happening at the same rates as usual. They are worried people are not seeking treatment and want us to let everyone know hospitals are safe and clean. 

A hospital is one of the least likely places to get covid in most of the country. Grocery stores don't screen everyone coming in for cough or fever, apply masks and hand sanitizer and then hand you over to staff highly trained in infection control.

As some have mentioned, nurses may seem less cautious than others but that is because we are used to dealing with infectious diseases all the time. This is nothing new. Because of this, we don't do a lot of extra steps other people do, since we know they are unnecessary.

We understand that we can touch someone with our hand as long as we plan to clean that hand, just as we do daily when touching our patients who we suspect may have MRSA on their skin or clothes. We know that we can pull down a mask and speak, as long as we don't cough, sneeze or spray on others. 
If we don't strip out of our clothes before getting in our car, it's because we know it doesn't matter what is in our car as long we don't insert it into open wounds or mucous membranes.
This looks like a lack of caution to some, but after 20 years of working with deadly diseases I personally have habits that keep me safe and don't need extreme measures that only make people feel safer.


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## Knave

My friend is a nurse. I was branding with her, and she said most people are quite rude to her. They act like she is the problem instead of the solution when she is in public. They tell her she shouldn’t be shopping or anything like that. I was shocked! 

In my county no one has it. Her county is large in population (well, to me) and I believe 12 people are diagnosed with it. I don’t remember how many of those are hospitalized. 

I just can’t believe the meanness of people and the lack of gratitude. If they are that scared of the virus, theoretically they should be that grateful for those who’s job is to help those with it.


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## bsms

I'm at the outskirts of Pima County. Within the county borders, unfortunately. The county LOVES tax & spend, with most of the spending going...where? Population 1,000,000. 1136 cases. 65 dead.

"_Mr Streeck is a professor for virology and the director of the Institute of virology and HIV Research at the University Bonn....

“There is no significant risk of catching the disease when you go shopping. Severe outbreaks of the infection were always a result of people being closer together over a longer period of time, for example the après- ski parties in Ischgl, Austria.” He could also not find any evidence of ‘living’ viruses on surfaces. “When we took samples from door handles, phones or toilets it has not been possible to cultivate the virus in the laboratory on the basis of these swabs….”...

However, there are different findings on how the coronavirus spreads. Experts from the US Institute of Health CDC and NIH had come to the conclusion that the virus can survive 24 hours on paper, three hours in aerosols and up to three days on plastics and stainless steel. As the Robert Koch Institute states on their website, however, scientific studies like this are realised under experimental conditions, which is why they are not very representative for the risk of transmission in daily life...._"

https://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1498185.html

Also: https://www.thelocal.de/20200402/ho...ers-on-coronavirus-in-countrys-worst-hit-spot

I have zero expertise, but it does seem the hardest hit areas involve longer-term close contact. Subways in NYC for example. In NE Arizona, people live far apart - but families are close and spending time in close social settings seems - from what I have read - more common.

Sitting in a basketball arena for a game sounds high risk. Same with mass transportation or parties. But could the variation in how people view "personal space" be a cultural contributing factor? I'd guess people in NYC would tolerate low personal space while someone in LA might want an extra couple of feet. Those of us in Arizona might want more, unless our subculture values closer contact.

Pure speculation. But it does seem the hotspots for the virus do involve people in enclosed areas for longer periods of time - a choir rehearsal versus walking past each other in a store.

Also, my wife and I were talking about our friend who died from coronavirus. He had serious heart and lung issues we didn't even know about and had for years. My wife argues his symptoms - tingling in the extremities, sudden shortness of breath, becoming light-headed so he had to sit down in the yard - sound more like a heart attack. It wasn't something that slowly increased but a sudden onset (as best as we've heard since it isn't something we would quiz his widow about). She argues he may have had a heart attack while being an asymptomatic coronavirus case, which then goes on record as a death from coronavirus rather than a heart attack in the presence of coronavirus.

PS: When I get back from a trip to town, I wash my hands up past the wrists & check my watch to ensure a minute of washing. I've taken to humming, "Like a surgeon, washing hands for the one millionth time....Like a suur-ur-ur-urgeon, like a surgeon."


----------



## bsms

Heard this on the radio while driving this morning:

"_Cervantez is one of 38 long-term-care residents to die from the coronavirus in Pima County as of Thursday, representing more than half of the county’s known deaths related to COVID-19, according to an analysis of data obtained by the Arizona Daily Star....The revelation comes as the state has refused to provide specific data about known COVID-19 cases at nursing homes, despite a number of long-term-care facilities, including 25 assisted living and long-term-care facilities in Pima County, having confirmed outbreaks._"

https://tucson.com/news/local/more-...cle_2b4a2b42-7d96-5e90-9c1f-d042527b3e1a.html

Population 1,000,000. 1136 cases. 65 dead. 27 dead outside of nursing homes.

Note: NY Times says Pima County has had 76 deaths total, in which case there would be 38 deaths apart from nursing homes. It is hard to find current data.


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> PS: When I get back from a trip to town, I wash my hands up past the wrists & check my watch to ensure a minute of washing. I've taken to humming, "Like a surgeon, washing hands for the one millionth time....Like a suur-ur-ur-urgeon, like a surgeon."


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That sounds like great fun! And it reminds me of this little number as well, which in these times seems quite topical...






...this doesn't play embedded but the hyperlink to YT works! ;-)


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## Jone

Modern and Ancient Akhal-Teke. Heavenly Horse, Tianma, Golden Horse.*


----------



## SueC

It's nice to be able to have this discussion at a health professional's place! 



bsms said:


> "_I have zero expertise, but it does seem the hardest hit areas involve longer-term close contact. Subways in NYC for example. In NE Arizona, people live far apart - but families are close and spending time in close social settings seems - from what I have read - more common.
> 
> Sitting in a basketball arena for a game sounds high risk. Same with mass transportation or parties. But could the variation in how people view "personal space" be a cultural contributing factor? I'd guess people in NYC would tolerate low personal space while someone in LA might want an extra couple of feet. Those of us in Arizona might want more, unless our subculture values closer contact.
> 
> Pure speculation. But it does seem the hotspots for the virus do involve people in enclosed areas for longer periods of time - a choir rehearsal versus walking past each other in a store._


_

As I understand it, the highest risk is through droplet infection, followed by aerosolised virus and touching your own mucous membranes with contaminated hands. I imagine wet kisses would rate pretty highly for transmission as well.

The distance from a person at which they can potentially send droplets and aerosol your way, I've seen studies citing up to 8 metres, which is a bit more than the prescribed distancing of 1.5 metres in Australia. I'd imagine that the closer you are to the sneezer / cougher, the more of a load you would potentially cop, and as you need a certain critical mass of virus in order to get infected (more than one particle, but exact amount would depend on person or situation), the risk would diminish as your distance increases. 1.5 metres is probably OK in most situations to reduce your risk, as long as you're just passing anyway, and especially if sick people are wearing masks (which I think should be mandatory, not just with COVID-19 but with any cold or flu, if people must come out into public instead of staying in their beds with chicken soup and a book - I so hope that this experience will teach people better habits).

But I do think some of the stuff people are being asked to do in some countries is a bit extreme, like not being allowed out to exercise, and parks and beaches getting closed. If everyone stuck to the commonsense guidelines, transmission risks outdoors would be low at the spacings being requested between people not living in the same household. If you close parks or beaches, it means people have even less space in towns and cities to get out and exercise and get some fresh air. The no sitting on benches (looking at a view, etc), in some places, also seemed completely groundless to me - I don't see how that is going to increase anyone's risk as long as people wash their hands etc, and keep their distance. And did you hear about that Spanish council which sprayed a beach nobody had been allowed on for weeks with bleach because children were to be released from lockdown the next day? mg:

It does seem to me that a lot of things have become unnecessarily prohibited in many places, that have nothing to do with disease transmission and more to do with people in charge not understanding transmission. This happened in Australia too, where someone was fined for sitting on a public bench eating a kebab from a business that was allowed to trade take-away food, and other stupid stuff like that which was then famously picked up by one of our Aussie cartoonists:










from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ng-the-freedom-to-penalise-pretty-much-anyone

...what do you all think? And especially @gottatrot?_


----------



## gottatrot

My response was delayed because I had four days off work, so was doing lots around the house, playing with horses and not going online much.
My dad was worried about the deer in his neighborhood eating his garden, so my sister and I put up a tall fence for him yesterday. It was nice to see my parents and my mom made us dinner. 
The horses have been doing well, with Hero shedding off his winter coat as peach fuzz, and Amore as piles that just keep coming. Every year it seems like she hides half the hair, because I don't think her coat looks that dense until it all starts coming off. 

The bad news is that the horse boarding in the town we want to move to is not going to work out. The property which seemed so nice does not have running water, only a creek. That could be a real nightmare, hauling water every day. 



bsms said:


> I have zero expertise, but it does seem the hardest hit areas involve longer-term close contact. Subways in NYC for example. In NE Arizona, people live far apart - but families are close and spending time in close social settings seems - from what I have read - more common.
> 
> Sitting in a basketball arena for a game sounds high risk. Same with mass transportation or parties. But could the variation in how people view "personal space" be a cultural contributing factor? I'd guess people in NYC would tolerate low personal space while someone in LA might want an extra couple of feet. Those of us in Arizona might want more, unless our subculture values closer contact.
> 
> Pure speculation. But it does seem the hotspots for the virus do involve people in enclosed areas for longer periods of time - a choir rehearsal versus walking past each other in a store.
> 
> PS: When I get back from a trip to town, I wash my hands up past the wrists & check my watch to ensure a minute of washing. I've taken to humming, "Like a surgeon, washing hands for the one millionth time....Like a suur-ur-ur-urgeon, like a surgeon."


I agree about the cultural factors contributing to infection rates. In my opinion, it's not as much related to being exposed over and over by multiple people. Rather, it's about the odds of being exposed to enough of the virus to infect you that go up astronomically in certain circumstances. Extended families that hug and kiss, or touch each other a lot are an example. 
If people are standing next to you singing, the chances that they will spray a wet droplet (containing large amounts of virus) on your hand that you rub across your eyes or nose within the next hour or so are very high. More likely, one person has a nose that is running heavily, and they could be the culprit as they touch the music papers that you pass around "take one and pass it on" or shake hands in greeting. Or the choir director could sneeze while facing everyone and blast the virus into peoples' eyes, mouths and noses. 

If this pandemic taught people how to wash their hands and an awareness of staying away from those coughing and sneezing around them, it could potentially decrease the spread of all infectious disease in the future. An interesting thought to me is that a deadly virus could end up saving lives in the future. Not to mention it has highlighted issues with hygiene in our food packing plants, with employees being treated as disposable and their health unimportant. It has made me realize our meat supply must be a lot cleaner than I gave it credit for, since the workers are not normally dying in droves from e-coli and such in those conditions. 



SueC said:


> As I understand it, the highest risk is through droplet infection, followed by aerosolised virus and touching your own mucous membranes with contaminated hands. I imagine wet kisses would rate pretty highly for transmission as well.
> 
> The distance from a person at which they can potentially send droplets and aerosol your way, I've seen studies citing up to 8 metres, which is a bit more than the prescribed distancing of 1.5 metres in Australia. I'd imagine that the closer you are to the sneezer / cougher, the more of a load you would potentially cop, and as you need a certain critical mass of virus in order to get infected (more than one particle, but exact amount would depend on person or situation), the risk would diminish as your distance increases. 1.5 metres is probably OK in most situations to reduce your risk, as long as you're just passing anyway, and especially if sick people are wearing masks (which I think should be mandatory, not just with COVID-19 but with any cold or flu, if people must come out into public instead of staying in their beds with chicken soup and a book - I so hope that this experience will teach people better habits).
> 
> But I do think some of the stuff people are being asked to do in some countries is a bit extreme, like not being allowed out to exercise, and parks and beaches getting closed. If everyone stuck to the commonsense guidelines, transmission risks outdoors would be low at the spacings being requested between people not living in the same household.


I thought the cartoon was great. 
My understanding is that the highest risk is through droplet infection, followed by a much, much lower incidence of touching your mucous membranes with contaminated hands, and a very rare circumstance (potential, not known) of aerosolized transmission. Apparently, it is possible for a person to produce particles tiny enough to be suspended in the air, but there is no evidence yet showing that the amount of those suspended particles produced by one person contains enough virus that another person could be infected. Virus particles from air samples so far have not been able to produce disease in the lab. Going with epidemiological evidence so far, it sounds like the virus is very fragile and easy to kill, and most cases are from people in prolonged contact with those who are infected. Close distance over a prolonged period of time.

To me when it is highlighted that health care workers have the virus in large numbers, it is important to consider if those are in areas where everyone has the virus in large numbers, and the health care workers are part of the general community. I think everyone assumes the workers are contracting the virus at work, but in most places health care workers are far less likely to catch disease at work where they are following infection control procedures, and much more likely to catch diseases in the community and from family. Especially we see this in many diseases with people who have school-age children, and get exposed to all kinds of things. Usually where I work we have seen this route to infection: children bring something to their parents, who bring it to work, who give it to other coworkers. It is extremely rare to see a patient bring a disease which is spread among workers. You're less likely to catch a disease from someone when you are thinking "they are contaminated" versus when you are talking comfortably to a friend, who happens to have the disease that is going around. 

My work is doing antibody screening, to see which health care workers have been exposed. This will be followed up by a series of tests, to see how many will get exposed over time. I confess this is too much work for me, so I did not sign up. So far we have one person with antibodies whose entire family was sick with something that lasted a couple of weeks in January. That was well before the cases showed up in the nursing home in WA in late February. My suspicion is that since we've had so few cases in Oregon, 2,500 out of 4 million people, more than likely we already have some immunity due to undiagnosed cases from before the outbreak began. After all, many people die of respiratory illnesses that are not pinned to a specific organism. Older people dying with comorbidities...that could have been happening since the earliest cases in China (since we have so much worldwide travel) and it would not have caused any alarm. It's not like that is anything unusual. If the amount of deaths were similar to what we've had so far in Oregon, I suspect we would not have noticed. Until there were actual outbreaks such as the one in Washington, and the later spread to the big cities, it could have passed around much of the less populated areas of the country. 

People seem to be returning to normal where I live. Meaning they are driving around, going to the stores that are open, and generally not behaving fearfully or looking all jumpy like there are crocodiles in the bushes like they were a couple weeks ago. This is good, in my opinion. Fear in itself is unhealthy. Our governor says we will begin opening businesses in two weeks. Since people are not getting infected at high rates here, I think it is a good decision. Otherwise, keep everything closed until there is a vaccine? 
People seem fairly realistic too. Most are not wearing masks inside stores, and it seems like people accept whatever others are doing without obvious judgment. Mask, no mask, gloves, N95, whatever. My sister thought it would be good to have gloves at her work, and I said better to use hand sanitizer between customers. I told her that in a single shift at work I probably throw away 25 or more pairs of gloves. That is what makes them effective for preventing cross contamination. I also probably wash my hands twenty or thirty times and use hand sanitizer more than fifty times. On a busy night I might use an entire box of gloves and half a Purell bottle (large).
We know that if something is truly airborne, an N95 will not do you any good unless you are fit-tested. If there are gaps, meaning it is not the right size for your face, the virus will get through. We only wear an N95 mask if we are tested yearly and know it fits. Otherwise we don't go into an airborne situation. The testing involves spraying a bitter tasting substance inside an enclosed hood, while we have the mask on. Then we talk and move our face to see if we can taste the substance. If we taste it, the test has failed because we would have been exposed.

I think people should wear masks if they are sick, otherwise if you are keeping a distance from others there is no reason to. It's not an epidemiological problem if there is such a low transmission rate with casual contact. In places where distance is not possible, masks are important. I believe in following logic and science, but not just doing what will help others psychologically. Some might not feel safe unless you wrap yourself in plastic, so there should be a limit. Businesses want to give a good impression, so that is understandable to a point but there are so many illogical practices going on. My personal experience with the human psyche is that when one safety measure becomes familiar, a person will need to go a step farther to feel safe. Logic should dictate our practices rather than fear. Fear will mean reading one article and deciding more extreme measures are necessary. 

People are frustrated because science is a slow process. It has always been that way. We have to follow correct methodology and that can take many months, even years. There are important reasons why we can't rush science. You don't really want them to rush a vaccine only to find out it makes 25% of us have an extreme allergic reaction, do you? They have to monitor things carefully, and study test subjects. It is better for a million people to get Covid, and 5% or so of those die, than for 3 million people to take an experimental drug and 70% of those get a deadly blood cancer. 

The death rate in the US so far for the year is average. This means that the deaths from causes other than coronavirus are below average. 
As some have noted, the pandemic has seemed to have a strange effect which overall has lowered some of the other causes of death. I don't think all of these can be known, but there have been far fewer car accidents, a drop in drug overdose deaths, obviously with less surgeries there have been less surgical complications and deaths from those, less injuries from violent crimes. Some unknown factors such as lowered stress or eating out have lowered stroke and heart attack rates. Probably with most of the hospitals having so few patients, less deaths from hospital acquired infections, medication errors, and other medical errors. Strange, almost like a weird homeostasis with certain areas having increased deaths while others having much lower deaths than normal, sort of equalizing the effect when spread across the US.
Those are my rambling thoughts of the day. :smile:


----------



## SueC

gottatrot said:


> The bad news is that the horse boarding in the town we want to move to is not going to work out. The property which seemed so nice does not have running water, only a creek. That could be a real nightmare, hauling water every day.


Just a thought: When we started at our place nearly 10 years ago, all we had is a cow paddock with 4ha internally fenced off, and a farm dam in the 8ha of unfenced pasture 200m away from our watering point in the fenced horse paddocks. And we had basically no money to spare, even for a small $450 fire pump. What we did is buy an inexpensive $40 12V caravan pump at a caravan store, hook it to a car battery which was hooked to a small solar panel, and use that to pump water through a standard black polypipe into the old cast-iron bathtubs we were (and still are) using as horse troughs. It took a while, but it worked, and got us started. A year later we had a water tank and a shed roof to collect from, and ran that water by gravity down to the horse troughs. Sometimes these things aren't the problems you might think they are. And good luck with finding a good boarding spot! 

Plus thanks for your post above - too tired to write anything else just now. 

PS: A photo of that setup in late 2010. Romeo at the back.


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## Knave

I’m sorry about the boarding situation. This must be getting frustrating.

I really liked your post. My county still has zero cases. Here’s the thing though. In basketball season a terrible bug wiped out the town. It was very very bad. There were even warnings out to not come to my town. It was when little girl got so sick that she threw up a lot of blood, and four other people did the same. Some called it the flu, and one of the kids who went somewhere different for diagnosis I heard was diagnosed with tb.

I got it after little girl did. She was sick 22 days and I was sick 16 I think. It was awful and we both ended up taking antibiotics. A lot of people though that maybe that was what originally happened here. I doubted it, but now I do wonder. (You can imagine, we were so sick that one day there were only 38 kids left in the school.)


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## phantomhorse13

SueC said:


> But I do think some of the stuff people are being asked to do in some countries is a bit extreme, like not being allowed out to exercise, and parks and beaches getting closed.
> 
> If everyone stuck to the commonsense guidelines, transmission risks outdoors would be low


The problem is, at least around here, the latter statement is apparently not possible.. so things are closed to save the idiots from themselves.

The mayor of the large town near us had to mandate a curfew and threaten to activate the national guard to get groups of people to stop loitering on street corners and at local parks. The handful of local parks looked like outdoor concerts, with people side by side on benches, bashing into each other on basketball courts, and letting all the children play together. The infection rate was _much_ higher here than it should have been statistically and I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if it hadn't been so rainy!

I went to the grocery store last week for the first time since all this started. This state has a mandate that all people in public must wear masks (this has been in effect for a couple weeks now, so is not new). I get to the store and am not surprised to see someone at the entrance to the store who is not only disinfecting the carts between people, but also acting as a bouncer of sorts. A lady without a mask tried to enter as I was about halfway across the parking lot and when the guy at the door wouldn't let her in, she got loud. She was yelling about how he wasn't the boss of her and how she had a constitutional right to go where she wanted without any [email protected] mask. I give the employee many kudos for remaining calm and his only comment was she was not allowed in without a mask. The employee was a large man who easily blocked the door - I doubt that was by accident. After another moment of yelling and gesturing, the lady stormed off.

I went in (mask on) and had no issue following the one-way flow down each aisle (new since the pandemic) and also had no issue standing on the 6 feet apart marks on the floor while waiting to check out. I don't understand _why_ simple things are such issues for people.. but somehow they are. Does it really ruin your day to wear a mask for 30 minutes while shopping or go down this aisle east to west vs west to east??



gottatrot said:


> If this pandemic taught people how to wash their hands and an awareness of staying away from those coughing and sneezing around them, it could potentially decrease the spread of all infectious disease in the future.
> 
> I think people should wear masks if they are sick, otherwise if you are keeping a distance from others there is no reason to.


The explanation for everyone wearing masks was partly to do with asymptomatic carriers but mostly to do with non-compliant idiots. Knowing how many people leave a bathroom without washing their hands, I don't hold much hope for this having made an impression either.

I find the results of your work's antibody testing to be fascinating and it gives me some hope that many have already been exposed and recovered long before we knew covid19 existed. I would love to be titered at some point, as I got very sick after returning from vacation in early february and all the symptoms match.


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## Hondo

Everyone where I live has hauled water except for a couple hundred in the town proper. Postmaster says there are 1,200 PO Boxes with multiple people living at many. (it's not williams but nearby).


I have a 300 gallon water trailer and a 2500 gallon buried tank. Most have the same size but above ground. Most have larger water trailer but it's just me and it's only 7 miles plus I go in to check the mail etc so no extra trip.


Many use a delivery service which requires a minimum of 2,000 gallons delivery. If less, same price.


It's all city water and it's very good water. I pay $0.0125 per gallon. About triple that for delivery.


The water here is very very deep which makes it uneconomical to drill unless several people are using it.


Your area does not likely have a water problem, but there is often water haul trucks available for construction water. Would not be potable but it'd be plenty ok for horses.


A 2500 gallon tank would run between $1500.00 and $2,000.00. Around here at least.


So if you really like the area and the board otherwise, setting a tank and having water hauled might be a solution. If you eventually moved, the tank could either be relocated or sold.


If there is electricity you might want to spend $150 or so on an inexpensive pump and pressure tank. That is actually what I'm using. From Harbor Freight no less.


Or you could just set a water trough adjacent to the tank and get a float setup and there you go. Done.


Might want to think about it and see what DH thinks.


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## bsms

In Arizona, I see few masks although some stores are starting to require it. Most folks have been sensible, at least out where I live. However...I'd bet the parks in Tucson would see a lot of folks ignoring everything. Like when you see stories of folks crowding a hundred people into their home for a party. Really?

It makes it difficult to have sensible rules. I'm in Texas tonight. The WalMart here required everyone to use a cart (to create 6' maybe?) and had an armed policeman at the entrance. But the carts were not being wiped down and they had run out of wipes, so...really? Require everyone to push a cart that had just been pushed by someone else without sanitizing? On the road it can be awkward finding places to use a restroom and I'm already tired of eating drive-thru garbage food! And I even LIKE McDonalds! I'm looking forward to getting back to Arizona later this week.


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## gottatrot

I really appreciate the different perspectives and opinions everyone presents.

About the water, it is interesting to hear from those of you in drier places. It is something for me to consider, if maybe there is more potential for the boarding place than I realize. Probably those who live in dry areas would have a serious dichotomy if they saw how those of us living in rain forests behave with water. It is the practice of many horse people to hose down their horses completely after a ride where they get sweaty, and barns I've been at will dump out every water bucket daily, scrub it and then refill it. We often leave water running when we go to get things, like if I was going to rinse a saddle pad and forgot it in the barn, I might walk back there and leave the water going, thinking it is more trouble to turn the faucet off. Water here is cheap, and plentiful. So I am guessing the creek I am thinking might not suffice for water on the horse property I am looking at might seem like a river to some of you, and a great source of water.

People can be supportive of masking, and other measures, and I think it's true that these things are about those who behave irresponsibly. But I also balance that with the current idea of what is "irresponsible," which covers many things that are only opinions, even if they are widely held ones. 
I saw a cartoon that said why people need to mask is like someone near you is going to pee himself. If neither of you are wearing pants, you will get wet. If you wear pants, you will only get a little damp. If you both wear pants, only he will get wet. This is amusing, but sidesteps the issue that only the person wetting himself needs to be wearing the pants. And if you never get close enough to get peed on, you're perfectly safe. In other words, if a person is not wearing a mask, in order to stay safe all you need to do is avoid getting coughed or sneezed on. If you don't allow others to get close to you, there are no worries. Avoid blind corners. Even asymptomatic carriers must somehow dispense the virus out of their body. The masks are only for holding their snot flow in and such, and so you yourself can always stay safe with distance and hand washing. Spread from simple talking would require that you were very, very close to a person. Basically, governments are worried about the one irresponsible person who will spew germs everywhere, and they don't trust you to keep yourself safe. That is fine, but not _required_ to be a responsible person. 

Yes, many who are not wearing masks are irresponsible. You can judge a person for not wearing a mask, but that is essentially a form of bigotry since you don't actually know if they are a responsible person or not. I understand people want everyone to wear masks, because they feel like it will help the pandemic spread less. It will only do so in areas where people are forced to be close to irresponsible people. Such as on a tightly packed subway. In other areas, the masks do nothing except create a feeling of safety. I have heard things like what kind of a selfish person won't wear a mask in a pandemic? And I think that is the sort of shaming a parent will do to try to get their kid to eat their peas. Poor kids starving in another country will not be helped by my eating peas, even if it makes my mom feel better. My wearing a mask will not help anyone avoid infection, even if it makes someone else feel better. 

I was making up a little sci-fi story about Coronavirus to entertain myself. 



> Viruses need hosts. A host is like a planet, or maybe a giant space station. When viruses leave the host, they're like space men going out in suits or tiny space ships. They only have so much time before they will run out of resources they need and die (technically viruses don't die because they are not alive, but they degrade and become non-viable - so for our purposes, "die.").
> 
> Two planets or space stations come close to each other. One that is infected opens its doors and the little space men come swarming out to attack the other planet. If the planets stay in close proximity, more little space men can cross over. Once they invade and get inside, they try to take over the host. This is done by creating replicants. The replicants use the host planet as a base to make many more copies of themselves. When there are enough of them, they can send replicants out to invade another planet, spreading across the universe.
> 
> If the replicants are too aggressive, and use up all of the resources, the planet will die. Sometimes the planet attacks the invaders too hard, using up all its own resources and ends up causing its own death. Ideally, the replicants sneak in without too much notice and take over, the troops sending off new replicants to take over other planets, with some being left behind to be subdued and imprisoned. Then the planet will return to normal.
> 
> When the replicants leave a planet, if there is no other planet nearby to invade, they head off in their tiny spaceships or survival suits. This is very risky. Sometimes they land on uninhabited territory, taking the chance that a planet may come close enough for them to latch on and enter it. It must be done before they run out of resources in the spaceship and find themselves exposed to the deadly environment. This is the most difficult way to take over a planet, with only a few spacemen available to enter the hostile territory and try to make replicants. Sometimes they can float in their survival suits for a time, but quickly grow weaker as they run out of supplies and begin to degrade. If they happen to get sucked into the atmosphere of a new planet, they may try to make replicants, but usually they are too weak to continue.


That's my little sci-fi picture of how I envision Covid spreads and works. :smile::smile:


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## SueC

I always enjoy a good analogy! :clap:

And am enjoying this discussion. 



gottatrot said:


> My understanding is that the highest risk is through droplet infection, followed by a much, much lower incidence of touching your mucous membranes with contaminated hands, and a very rare circumstance (potential, not known) of aerosolized transmission. Apparently, it is possible for a person to produce particles tiny enough to be suspended in the air, but there is no evidence yet showing that the amount of those suspended particles produced by one person contains enough virus that another person could be infected. Virus particles from air samples so far have not been able to produce disease in the lab. Going with epidemiological evidence so far, it sounds like the virus is very fragile and easy to kill, and most cases are from people in prolonged contact with those who are infected. Close distance over a prolonged period of time.


Thank you for the clarification! And all the other detailed information in your post. 

I want to show you something that made me mad, from the Internet:










If it doesn't come up:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUydJlZX0AM-dR6?format=jpg&name=900x900

I have no idea who produced this poster. The reason it made me mad is because of the misconceptions it creates about the spread of COVID-19. It doesn't just sit in the air as depicted; it needs human hosts to transfer (although there's a few questions at the moment as to which animals could also spread it, since some cats have tested positive). Human hosts can throw out a cloud of virus, fine - but only in their immediate vicinity, and soon it will disperse enough for the air in that space not to be infectious anymore - and obviously, the droplets with virus can land on stuff, and cause infections by transfer to mucous membranes, with unwashed hands etc.

Sometimes I think that's what a few of the officials believed about the virus when they were, for example, limiting even the amount of time people could spend in their own gardens in some areas - like 1 hour in Scotland at some point - that just didn't make any sense at all.




> To me when it is highlighted that health care workers have the virus in large numbers, it is important to consider if those are in areas where everyone has the virus in large numbers, and the health care workers are part of the general community. I think everyone assumes the workers are contracting the virus at work, but in most places health care workers are far less likely to catch disease at work where they are following infection control procedures, and much more likely to catch diseases in the community and from family. Especially we see this in many diseases with people who have school-age children, and get exposed to all kinds of things. Usually where I work we have seen this route to infection: children bring something to their parents, who bring it to work, who give it to other coworkers. It is extremely rare to see a patient bring a disease which is spread among workers. You're less likely to catch a disease from someone when you are thinking "they are contaminated" versus when you are talking comfortably to a friend, who happens to have the disease that is going around.


I thought that was a really interesting point that I've actually not seen in any discussions I've read in the media about it so far.




> My work is doing antibody screening, to see which health care workers have been exposed. This will be followed up by a series of tests, to see how many will get exposed over time. I confess this is too much work for me, so I did not sign up. So far we have one person with antibodies whose entire family was sick with something that lasted a couple of weeks in January. That was well before the cases showed up in the nursing home in WA in late February. My suspicion is that since we've had so few cases in Oregon, 2,500 out of 4 million people, more than likely we already have some immunity due to undiagnosed cases from before the outbreak began. After all, many people die of respiratory illnesses that are not pinned to a specific organism. Older people dying with comorbidities...that could have been happening since the earliest cases in China (since we have so much worldwide travel) and it would not have caused any alarm. It's not like that is anything unusual. If the amount of deaths were similar to what we've had so far in Oregon, I suspect we would not have noticed. Until there were actual outbreaks such as the one in Washington, and the later spread to the big cities, it could have passed around much of the less populated areas of the country.


The only thing I want to query here is, do you think that such a significant level of herd immunity could have developed in Oregon in such a short time? They tell us here that you need around 60% of the population to have had it, or be immunised, for effective herd immunity.




> People seem to be returning to normal where I live. Meaning they are driving around, going to the stores that are open, and generally not behaving fearfully or looking all jumpy like there are crocodiles in the bushes like they were a couple weeks ago. This is good, in my opinion. Fear in itself is unhealthy. Our governor says we will begin opening businesses in two weeks. Since people are not getting infected at high rates here, I think it is a good decision. Otherwise, keep everything closed until there is a vaccine?


We are pretty much at that point here too in Western Australia, but are expecting a second wave of outbreak once we loosen restrictions. As long as the hospitals don't get overstretched by it, we won't have to return to lockdown, but that is a possibility were the virus to start spreading alarmingly here again. Still, there's lots of testing and contact tracing going on here, at very effective levels at present. Social distancing is predicted to be with us at the current level for a long time - no more than 10 people meeting up, and 1.5m between anyone not in the same household. Wash your hands, etc. Sick people should stay home; wear masks if absolutely needing to come out (to seek medical attention etc).


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## SueC

Quote:
Originally Posted by *SueC* View Post 
_But I do think some of the stuff people are being asked to do in some countries is a bit extreme, like not being allowed out to exercise, and parks and beaches getting closed. 

If everyone stuck to the commonsense guidelines, transmission risks outdoors would be low_




phantomhorse13 said:


> The problem is, at least around here, the latter statement is apparently not possible.. so things are closed to save the idiots from themselves.
> 
> The mayor of the large town near us had to mandate a curfew and threaten to activate the national guard to get groups of people to stop loitering on street corners and at local parks. The handful of local parks looked like outdoor concerts, with people side by side on benches, bashing into each other on basketball courts, and letting all the children play together. The infection rate was _much_ higher here than it should have been statistically and I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if it hadn't been so rainy!
> 
> I went to the grocery store last week for the first time since all this started. This state has a mandate that all people in public must wear masks (this has been in effect for a couple weeks now, so is not new). I get to the store and am not surprised to see someone at the entrance to the store who is not only disinfecting the carts between people, but also acting as a bouncer of sorts. A lady without a mask tried to enter as I was about halfway across the parking lot and when the guy at the door wouldn't let her in, she got loud. She was yelling about how he wasn't the boss of her and how she had a constitutional right to go where she wanted without any [email protected] mask. I give the employee many kudos for remaining calm and his only comment was she was not allowed in without a mask. The employee was a large man who easily blocked the door - I doubt that was by accident. After another moment of yelling and gesturing, the lady stormed off.


mg: That's so shocking! I've seen stuff like that from the US on TV here, the way people are behaving often en masse, and wonder why it is that some people think freedom is the freedom to be selfish and not care about other people. There was even a woman with the placard, "Where the Spirit of God is, there is liberty" in a street march (with everyone crammed together...)... but that's so twisted, and what about Love thy neighbour?

I live on a farm and don't generally go to town more than once a week. When the pandemic broke out, I didn't need to go to town another three weeks, but when I did, I was pleasantly surprised by how polite and cooperative the vast majority of the public were with the new restrictions in place, and with this atmosphere of people looking after each other. People were actually friendlier than usual and going out of their way to acknowledge other people, smile etc - while keeping the prescribed distance.

It surprised me because we have a fair few yobbos in our population as well - and yet I've not personally seen any untoward behaviour (other than the evidence of panic buying) in my limited outings during this pandemic - not on the street, not in the supermarket, not on a walking trail. I'm sure things like that have happened in Australia as well, but interestingly, not at a very high rate from what I've seen in person and on the news (I'm actually currently watching our ABC news and discussion programmes, because of the pandemic).

I hope we stay like this...




> I went in (mask on) and had no issue following the one-way flow down each aisle (new since the pandemic) and also had no issue standing on the 6 feet apart marks on the floor while waiting to check out. I don't understand _why_ simple things are such issues for people.. but somehow they are. Does it really ruin your day to wear a mask for 30 minutes while shopping or go down this aisle east to west vs west to east??


Yeah, I don't get it either...




> The explanation for everyone wearing masks was partly to do with asymptomatic carriers but mostly to do with non-compliant idiots. Knowing how many people leave a bathroom without washing their hands, I don't hold much hope for this having made an impression either.


I guess it is easier to see who's not complying when you're making it compulsory for everyone, than when you're saying, "Wear this when you're ill!" - you can't necessarily spot the ill person not complying, and maybe asymptomatic people should wear masks too (but they don't know they have it).

But you know one other thing that occurred to me? If you only compel sick people to wear masks, then some idiots out there in the community (the same type as attack nurses in uniform etc) are going to start attacking people who wear masks. If everyone wears them, then the chances of that are much lower.

(And yes, it is a shame that we have to cater for idiots so much...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by *gottatrot* View Post 
_If this pandemic taught people how to wash their hands and an awareness of staying away from those coughing and sneezing around them, it could potentially decrease the spread of all infectious disease in the future. 

I think people should wear masks if they are sick, otherwise if you are keeping a distance from others there is no reason to._




> I find the results of your work's antibody testing to be fascinating and it gives me some hope that many have already been exposed and recovered long before we knew covid19 existed. I would love to be titered at some point, as I got very sick after returning from vacation in early february and all the symptoms match.



Wow, if you manage to get a test for that, please let us know! Quite a few people in your situation have been wondering - you know, "I had something like that a while back, was it COVID-19?"

Happy riding, @phantomhorse13! :charge:


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## bsms

In the Philippines, the standard joke about jeepnies (the standard public transportation) was, "How many passengers does a jeepney hold? Answer: One More!" You would squeeze in as many passengers as the jeepney driver could make a profit by carrying, so everyone was a fraction of an inch from the next person. Or practically sitting on their lap, or crushed next to the person.

For THAT culture, masks make sense. Subways in NYC? Makes sense - although SANITIZING the subways may make more! But mandatory masks in a WalMart aren't doing measurable good, other than allowing people to cling to their fear. I do not feel responsible for supporting someone else's irrational (not based in evidence) fear.

It might be more helpful to teach people to respond to a sneeze near you the way I do now: By leaping like a wildebeest avoiding a lion!


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## gottatrot

Great post, @SueC. And I should add what I said about there being "no reason" to wear a mask, I should clarify I am talking about small town Oregon where there are no requirements for wearing masks, and in a county with 40,000 people and 8 Covid cases (with a lot of testing being done). In @PhantomHorse's example, there was a requirement to wear masks, and some idiot being ridiculous about it.

To answer your question about herd immunity, perhaps there have not been enough cases for it in Oregon, but I wonder if there is another explanation for why we have been light while CA and WA have been hit heavy. There were lots of children with severe illness in the schools earlier in the year. Perhaps they somehow provided a vector that changed the virus here. Or maybe our weather is having some strange effect. Whatever the case, if people are not infected, then there can be no herd immunity anyway.

What I am against is illogical, fear based measures, doing things that are extreme to make people feel better that are not based on science (such as hosing down beach sand), and not considering the bigger picture of everything that is being affected in the name of disease control.

It might seem like I am agreeing with some politics, but what I believe is that there is no utopia of belief where a "side" is right. Rather, I believe every individual topic should be weighed and decided on. And within a topic, there are multiple things I might agree or disagree with. This seems to be unpopular, since if I agree with one thing, some will think I am affiliated with certain political beliefs, but if I agree with another thing, some will think the opposite. Why can't we make individual decisions about everything, without having to feel that beliefs are grouped together in enormous clumps and that people are defined by those clumps of beliefs?
I can read an article from an "evil" source, and sift through what I believe may be factual or just opinion. Then I can read an opposite perspective and see which makes the most sense to me. Many people I meet would like to have everything pre-sorted by a safe source, almost as if they are afraid if they think for themselves they might get off track. These are people from all political persuasions.

Two good riding friends used to go out with me and discuss politics (they enjoyed the topic, I did not). They were on extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. I found that I agreed with many ideas of both of them. They actually got along quite well, in part because each had some views that were not at all in line with the politics they aligned with. They helped me learn that you can never put people into a box, or think you understand how they might think about one topic based on what they think about another topic. I've seen this with co-workers as well, and I think Oregon is a kind of interesting state because it has extremes of political beliefs within the state that mix together. This means that people become a sort of mix of beliefs, and you might find right-wing types that are extremely into environmentalism, and left-wing types who are very into gun rights. I like debates because I consider that I might change my mind. Often I do. This is something I believe is healthy, a willingness to change your mind when better information comes to your attention.

My job in health care is not political. Diseases and human bodies behave the way they do without any affiliation. When my patients come in, they often want to tell me about their beliefs. They'll say, "I hate the president, he's ruining everything." I'll say, "Yes, it's terrible." The next patient will come in and say, "Finally our country has good leadership. I feel good about it." I'll say, "Isn't it wonderful?" Because it's not important if I believe the way they do. What is important is that they feel supported, because most people do not trust those who disagree with them, and have a strong bias that those who believe other than they do may not be good people. Stress is an enemy of healing. By agreeing with patients, I have found the barriers go down that might prevent them from listening to and cooperating with important and completely non-political issues such as blood glucose control, antibiotic resistance, side effects of medications, and risks vs benefits of being on blood thinners.

I've heard that if you are not completely for every Covid measure, or if you think businesses could open in some areas, you must have certain persuasions. But I think some of us are not extreme and want to merely find a place where we can balance the bad effects from a deadly virus with the bad effects from the responses trying to prevent the spread of disease. I'm not sure why it needs to be all or nothing, and although I don't see why many business should not open again, it's not because I think everyone should rush out to big concerts again. Or that we should paint flags on our bodies and scream about freedom. It's because most of our small businesses here only ever have one or two people in them at a time, and so with safety measures in place there's really no reason why they can't open. If our big grocery stores are "safe" with a hundred people milling around inside, then the fabric store and mattress store, the bakery and all the other stores also should be able to open with that same measure of safety. 

So hopefully none of you will think this post is talking about politics, rather I am trying to discuss why I think having a discussion about Covid can bring up many topics without taking a side on politics and becoming offensive, heated or impolite.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> -Why can't we make individual decisions about everything, without having to feel that beliefs are grouped together in enormous clumps and that people are defined by those clumps of beliefs?
> -Many people I meet would like to have everything pre-sorted, as if they are afraid if they think for themselves they might get off track.
> -I like debates because I consider that I might change my mind. This is something I believe is healthy, a willingness to change your mind when better information comes to your attention.
> -most people do not trust those who disagree with them, and have a strong bias that those who believe other than they do may not be good people.
> 
> -I'm not sure why it needs to be all or nothing


Moderation is apparently anathema in our society now, as is thinking for oneself. 

I often find myself remembering my Great Aunt Grace, who used to joke that you knew you were old when you looked around you and thought the world was going to h#ll. Guess I am old, as I see many scary trends in society today that only seem to be worsening.

Is it laziness that leads to individuals becoming sheeple? Desire to belong? Fear of standing out?


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## bsms

Let me give two examples that have/will affect me this week:

1 - At an unnamed Air Force base, it seems the base commander has decided those who go outside MUST wear a mask. Inside an enclosed area with hundreds of others? No mask. Outside, no one within a quarter-mile, with the sun shining and a 20 mph wind? Mandatory masks. Unless you are jogging, so I guess the coronavirus can't keep up with a jogger.

2 - When I fly later this week, I've been told the airline will require me to wear a mask. Enclosed area. Prolonged exposure. Excellent ventilation once airborne, but not so good before that. Hmmmm....masks sound at least plausible, so I've got no trouble with them. Would probably wear one on my own, even if not required.

But walking across an open field? I love the military, but no one does stupid like the military can!

If someone wants me to change my behavior to reduce a risk, they don't need overwhelming proof the new behavior will help. But they do have an obligation to at least propose a reasonable mechanism by which the restriction MAY help! Unless, bless them, they are a military commander....:evil:


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## bsms

Well, SOME folks exceed the military for stupidity:

"_Joe Samaan was working his shift at an S J Food Mart outside Lexington, Kentucky, when a woman came in asking to pay for gas.

But unlike the hundreds of other customers Joe sees on a daily basis, the hole in this woman's protective facewear, which left her mouth and nose exposed, caught his eye._ "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-cut-hole-face-mask-makes-easier-breathe.html

And some people wonder why I like horses and dogs more than many people...:rofl:


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## Knave

That was funny @bsms.

I completely agree with you Gotta! I realize how much a certain viewpoint can make me look or sound, and yet I don’t associate any with a specific political stance. I’d like to think for myself! 

I have noticed that political association can create a refusal to listen. For example, I have an aunt who is a very opinionated woman. Her opinions follow the trends of her society. Anyways, she began a conversation about mustangs. She is a city woman who couldn’t be any further from the actual horses or land. I tried to explain my thoughts on mustangs in response to her statement, and she was so mean! In that fashion she completely disregarded my actual experiences in favor of an idea that was popular. 

Her thoughts on her environmental stance lacked so much substance that it could be laughable if it wasn’t backed by such animosity.

It is much better in my opinion to be open minded to those around us. Facts should be more relevant than political leanings.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> And some people wonder why I like horses and dogs more than many people...:rofl:


:cheers: Very funny (and very exasperating) stuff, @bsms! And yeah, about that, maybe you and Brett could start an online misanthropy forum. ;-) You'd both have a lot of things you could write entertainingly about. I'm sure quite a few of us would come do guest posts on a regular basis! :Angel: :evil: :smileynotebook:





Knave said:


> That was funny @bsms.
> 
> I completely agree with you Gotta! I realize how much a certain viewpoint can make me look or sound, and yet I don’t associate any with a specific political stance. I’d like to think for myself!


I think one of the reasons for that is that you guys and I too live in countries where politics is a mostly binary affair between two major political parties, both of which will send the world to hell in a handbasket if we elect them - with different flavour ice creams en route to hell. I don't like any of the major parties particularly, so if I voice political views, I'm sure to draw chagrin from "both" sides. I've got a feeling that countries that do proportional representation rather than winner-take-all like in Australia are better served by their political systems, but maybe living in a country with proportional representation would disabuse me of that notion too...

Completely agree with the concept of making up our own minds on various issues regardless of politics and sides. 

I'm sad to say it, and I do vote, but I don't think it actually makes much difference, because it's the devil versus the deep blue sea mostly. Maybe we should all go back to living in caves going "Urgh!" (and maybe we eventually will :Angel...


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## SueC

PS: An interesting article I've just read which ties in with many people's hunch that COVID-19 was around before the first "official" cases in our countries:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tal-discovers-covid-19-case-december-retested



> A French hospital that retested old samples from pneumonia patients has discovered that it treated a man with the coronavirus as early as 27 December, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases.
> 
> Dr Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals in the northern suburbs of Paris, told BFM TV that scientists had retested samples from 24 patients treated in December and January who tested negative for flu.
> 
> “Of the 24, we had one who was positive for Covid-19 on 27 December,” he told the news channel on Sunday.


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## gottatrot

Great responses. That mask with the hole was hilarious. About the jogging and no mask, I saw a photo online with a sign for a park where biking was not allowed but walking was OK. Speed in this case must mean you hit more of those floating viruses depicted in @SueC's poster. Interesting about the French case in Dec.

Over the past couple of days fear of hospitals seems to have gone down here. Suddenly the psych patients have started coming to the ER. Also pediatrics showing up with bad ear infections. The visits have tripled. Now the kidney stones, gallbladders and pancreatitis cases are showing up. The nursing homes are finally sending people in with sepsis, and pressure ulcers since they have shut them in rooms where they sit all day in wheelchairs. No walking or rolling down halls.

Congestive heart failure patients that were not managing well finally can't breathe and are coming in with 40 lbs of extra water wt that will take a week in the hospital to get rid of.
We suspected this might happen, and since surgeries are starting the hospitals will be filling up.


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## SueC

It's so sad about the nursing homes. I didn't mention this before but sadly during all of this our 84-year-old friend Bill, who was living independently and doing fine even post heart-attack (with visiting nurses), got put first into hospital against his will by his relatives (I was able to have one visit to him there), and then into a care home, which I think is such a tragedy for him, but apparently everyone else now gets to make his decisions for him because they know so much better. :-( Not just that I think that a care home is actually a more dangerous place for him to be during a pandemic than living on his own, but also that it's robbed him of so much of his always fiercely independent life - and during COVID-19, care homes essentially become detention centres where friends and relatives can't visit. I can't even get in touch with him as his cell phone has been disconnected... but we know where he is, so if they start allowing visits again as they're mooted to right now, I might actually be able to go see him...

I'm going to balance that unpalatable news with a brand-new fun cartoon drawn by our Aussie cartoonist "First Dog On The Moon":










from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...u-waste-it-what-harsh-truths-did-you-discover

...and there was also something hilarious I had to relate elsewhere after browsing the Guardian, that might give some of you a laugh:

Insane Entertainment Especially For Cure Fans - Page 2

I've linked to a particular post, but if anyone's got lockdown blues or just wants a laugh, it's where I've been collecting and posting all sorts of humour I come across, including from your good selves.


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## Knave

Oh no @SueC! That is terrible. I am sorry.


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## gottatrot

Poor Bill. :sad:
@Knave, I've had similar discussions with people about mustangs. Very unrealistic. What I can't understand is the contradiction of those who think culling or contraception is too cruel, but don't mind if the animals starve or suffer as long as they are on the range. Or with our opossums, wanting to save all the animals and preserve wildlife, unless of course they are non-native in which case it's fine to let them suffer or euthanize young animals. 

I saw that Nala's rider had been out several days ago with another rider, so I am thinking about asking her if she would be comfortable with going out for a ride soon. Riding alone is still fun, but I'm feeling ready for a trail ride. 

Went for a half hour ride on Hero yesterday. I try not to ride for too long when we're not on a trail ride with another horse, because I don't want Hero to think riding is drudgery. Very slowly I have been changing his thinking about riding toward more positive. We were in an empty field with Amore grazing in the next field over, so both felt they had company. Amore has been the one getting upset lately if I go too far away with Hero. It is strange, she was not prone to doing that when turned out with other mares. 

Maybe in the beginning I did too much with Hero, not understanding how sore he was. My interpretation was that he was not an athletic, go-getter type. Unless he was upset, he seemed to have more whoa than go. Going out on longer rides in the sand probably did not help his overall bias that riding was not that fun, but it was balanced a bit by wanting to go out with Nala. 

Having Nala gone has actually helped force me to work on creating positive rides with Hero, and a lot of things have started coming together. Shorter exercise sessions have helped him not be sore, and he seems to be getting more forward and responsive for me. I think the amino acid supplements have helped him also - his muscle distribution looks smooth now with no tense areas like over his croup.

Now I believe finally that I am seeing his baseline personality, and we've reached the point where I understand more about what is going on and what his reactions are. With all the kicking and bucking from his stifle issues, it was difficult to know what was frustration, temper, insecurity, etc. Also it is not a secure feeling when you don't know if a horse is ramping up or losing it, panicking or just acting up.

Now I understand that Hero is willing, and does like to exercise when he knows it won't be uncomfortable. He's even fine with going around in circles for a while, around the perimeter of a field, and if he seems unwilling to go forward it is because something is making him fearful or spooky. It took me a while to understand that since his fear reactions are different from other horses. He is a somewhat spooky horse. Not as spooky as Amore ever was, but not as bold as Halla. But I've been learning that what I've sometimes thought were him not wanting to do something are actually just spooks. 

For example, on our ride yesterday I saw that he was eyeing a corner of the field where the stream was going by making noises and it was dark and wooded, and there was an obviously well-traveled elk track through it. So I was thinking he might spook around that area, and sure enough, when we passed by it he was staring and then a car went by on the highway above us. Hero hopped a little and the next time by there was a sound again and he popped up, reared and spun. Knowing this was spooking, I got his attention back onto me, and the next couple of times around I talked continuously in a soothing tone and praised him for trotting through without spooking. In the past I was somewhat leery of what spinning or rearing was going to lead to. 

Especially now that I've spent so much time observing Hero on the lunge, I know that when he does this kind of spook it is self-limiting. Also it is natural when horses rear or buck to feel insecure and wonder if it is going to knock you off. A while back I had to get logical and tell myself that this horse has been doing shenanigans very often and only unseated me once or twice. For some reason, even if things don't look or feel wonderful, they are very rideable, and so they don't need to be very concerning. This is the style of spook this horse does. That makes me just go ahead and ride through it, and then we go on.

I know that he would probably not have spooked at all, if I had lunged some of the energy out of him before riding. It was sort of an experiment, since I had not had the horses out in three days and I was curious to see if Hero was improving with managing his energy without having to get the excess "packing peanuts" taken off. Other than a couple of spooks, Hero walked out, went wherever I asked, picked up the trot and canter, and stayed balanced. These are very good improvements for him. I'm having a lot of confidence, thinking if I want to trailer him out for rides he will do well, since I've been keeping him in shape and we've been getting to trust each other and be a better team.


----------



## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Maybe in the beginning I did too much with Hero, not understanding how sore he was. My interpretation was that he was not an athletic, go-getter type. Unless he was upset, he seemed to have more whoa than go. Going out on longer rides in the sand probably did not help his overall bias that riding was not that fun, but it was balanced a bit by wanting to go out with Nala.


Ah, hindsight! :neutral: When I look back, especially at when I was in my 20s and working with my Arabian mare, there's so many things like that I see where I thought one thing at the time and now think differently about it. And if there was one thing I could tell my younger self to help her avoid her misconceptions, it's, "Listen to the horse, really listen - and think about what she's telling you." I mean, I was already listening to horses, yet it was like having tourist Spanish or something - misunderstandings happen. But sometimes I'd be too intent on a training method, or I'd just be on an autopilot that's more to do with my own baggage than anything going on in a present situation. So I'd also say to my younger self, "Become more aware of, and really really examine, your autopilots and their origin!"

The funny thing is, I'm over halfway through my statistically likely life span, and I'm always feeling like I'm only just starting to get it. Which has scary implications for society - but also kind of explains a lot of things...

It's a good thing horses are quite forgiving, and that our species hasn't actually blown up the planet yet (though not for lack of trying).


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> The funny thing is, I'm over halfway through my statistically likely life span, and I'm always feeling like I'm only just starting to get it.


Me too! In all areas of life.


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## Hondo

Humility is so becoming!


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## gottatrot

I have a couple of questions for those of you living in drier weather. Do you think dry areas make horses more susceptible to COPD or lung issues? My friend bought a horse from central Oregon where it is high desert, and he has had heaves issues. This, along with the images in my head of horses standing in dust clouds after a run from when I've visited these areas makes me wonder. 

Another question is about hooves and the harder ground. I imagine horses would retain more sole and end up not having issues. However, I was wondering about TBs and horses with thinner soles or smaller hooves genetically. Do they struggle in that weather? Or in the winter with frozen ground? 

We've started looking into a complete change, just tossing around the idea of moving away from the coast. This is intimidating for us, since we both love the rain and don't care for extremely hot or cold weather. 
There are more places in central Oregon where a person can get far away from other people, and live with less neighbors. My brother has asked me a few times why we don't live over there because it really is horse country. Tons of BLM land to ride on. Great hay all over, and a natural habitat for horses (except for my questions above?). There are mustangs on the BLM land. Online I see lots of horse boarding with turnout and it would be easy to own land for horses. Also I've heard they have very good vets. 

The town down the coast where we have difficulty finding a place for horses:


















Versus Central OR:


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## Knave

It ate my post again! I think hooves are great if they are cared for, and of course you see hoof issues from poor conformation or shoeing. If you don’t take care of feet they crack and break, but Bones has little feet and has been barefoot with zero issues forever (except two shoeings right in the beginning. His poor conformation makes him brush, and he can’t have shoes on because of it.) Zeus hasn’t seen a shoe either, but I think fjords have amazing feet.

I haven’t come across a horse with heaves. Breathing issues I’ve seen have usually been feed related.


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## egrogan

Wow, both kinds of scenery are pretty spectacular. I haven't lived in either type of climate, so no help there, but sounds like it will be a really tough choice.


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## bsms

Haven't seen any lung issues here. Foot issues: Trooper has a cracked hoof that is still cracked after a year. We've tried but every time it is almost healed, it splits again - in the corral. We have rocks in the corral and always will and I think he just needs to hit one wrong, one time during the months it takes for the hoof to grow out, to re-split it.

That said, he shows no sign of pain or discomfort. I think it is so dry here that we don't get nasty stuff growing for long.

Bandit has thinner soles than the other horses I've had. Hoof boots on the trail are important, at least for rides over 60 minutes. But his feet are fine for the corral.

Here is a question from the other side: What are the issues of keeping a horse where it snows (or rains) regularly? Seems like things would get muddy and stay muddy for a few months at a time. When it gets muddy here, I feed them pelleted hay and wait a couple days for it to dry. Seems that would be tough in the spring when snow is melting. How do y'all keep the horses when it is that wet?

It looks like we'll be here for a couple more years at least due to issues with grandkids. But the wife and I would both like to move. I could handle snow and some cold if if it wasn't for having horses - which must sound like a really STUPID statement to those of you living where snow is part of life! We might have already moved if it were not for snow and horses.

While we can't move, we might buy some land somewhere and look at building there in a few years. When the older horses die, our plan right now is to put Bandit in a boarding stable so he can watch things and still have other horses around. Bandit is 12, so he could be around for 20+ years. Maybe not, but maybe. I either need to sell him or have a plan for keeping him into my 80s. It is scary to sell a horse but I can't count on being healthy enough to keep him on my own for the next 20+ years.


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## Dragoon

Hi
I'm in Canada, near the Great Lakes. We have winter(snow), spring (three months of mud), summer(dry), fall( windy). 
Spring brings thrush, summer brings cracks. The hooves are ankle deep in mud for months, then become very dry and the horses stamp like mad because of all the bugs. So, little cracks.

In winter all the hooves look great!

Those round bale feeders are great. Keeps your hay from sinking in mud, or blowing away. Lots of hay is lost to mud, all the stuff that drops from their mouths. Grass grows like mad starting in May. Too much grass, my pony has to be dry lotted for the next five months. The others won't eat much hay until November...

I'm sad my guy is such an easy keeper. He is kept alone now, and gets a hay bag. 

The only time I like grass is when its windy. I know their food won't blow away!


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## gottatrot

Thanks all for the great info. I guess hoof issues come with any kind of climate. 

We are on an impromptu trip to Central Oregon and looking at horse places. Already I've learned that "turnout" here means putting horses on grass. I asked about turnout and a stable owner said she let the owners control how much pasture time the horses get due to founder. After talking more I realized she didn't even have stalls, so turnout was referring to having horses moved from their dry pastures to green ones. 
It's quite pretty over here and very easy to get away from population with a short drive. 

I thought it was funny the other day to see Hero super alert, watching elk and scaring them out of the fields. Amore just eats because she has Hero taking care of it all.
At 1:50 he has to chase after one.


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## bsms

That is how Bandit behaves. He is the Great Protector, responsible for the safe keeping of the others. On our little ride yesterday, Trooper would shove his face into a bit of grass and graze while Bandit kept on high alert. Head up, looking, smelling. I scratched his neck and told him we'd look together. He snorted as if to say, "_Yeah, like a lot of help YOU'LL be!_" 

It's tough being dissed by your horse...:shrug:


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## gottatrot

I've been rather amazed at the amount of horses in central Oregon. I've heard it is "horse country," but there are horse facilities everywhere. For every place I saw advertised online, if we drove down that road there would be at least three or four other large facilities on maybe 100 acres that were not advertised.
Along with that there are thousands of small farms with horses on the property. I've been to central OR a few times but driving down the highways on the way to or from sightseeing. So I'd never seen the extent of the horse world here.

It seems obvious that this climate is ideal for horses. On the coast, when you drive along and see "backyard" horses, there will be some scattered here and there that don't look like they are thriving. I believe it does take some extra attention to get horses very healthy with all the rain. In central OR, I didn't see one horse that looked unhealthy, out of hundreds and hundreds of horses along the road. I'm thinking people who say not to overthink things and that horses tend to thrive without a lot of intervention probably live in areas like this. :smile:

We visited a boarding facility that specializes in breeding endurance Arabs. They had about 20 Arabs, many of which were quite tall and solid, up to 16 hands. It was a very nice place with all the horses kept outside in large fields and lots of areas to ride. The trainer's focus was conditioning horses for competition, but unfortunately those have all been canceled this year. 

Sadly, after all I say about the coastal climate not being the best for horses, we notice how the environment in the high desert feels so much more like survival to us. It has been unusually rainy for the past couple of days. They get around 5 inches of rain per year and probably got an inch while we were visiting. Yet we are hopeless causes and still our lips were chapped, eyes dry and I managed to get a light sunburn with sunblock on. Despite all of the attraction out in the desert, our hearts are still at the beach in the rainforest, so I think we will keep trying to find horse boarding there. 

Something we love is that in central OR you can drive a short distance in any direction and be completely alone, on top of a mountain in an alpine forest, or out in true desert. But unfortunately, the small towns don't have a lot of resources so we realized we would have to go to the bigger city of Bend quite often, and it's a pretty miserable place (in our opinion) with thousands of new, cheap looking homes thrown up close together in developments for all those crowding up from California. It has a big city feel with people rushing, driving rudely and cutting off other cars. Many people have a superficial look. 

It's a little more difficult to find a lonely road on the OR coast that isn't a logging road. But some of the small towns do not have that crowded, rushed feeling and it's possible to be casual and real. You can also go out on a lonely beach or up in the mountains. So we are thinking that overall we might prefer living at the beach and visiting the desert still, rather than vice versa.


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## bsms

It is tough to find the right balance. In the desert, your skin WILL adapt. It took us about 4-6 weeks after arriving here. It does seem like an easy place to keep horses. My wife and I got in a short ride today and she mentioned how the horses seem pretty healthy compared to some others we know that get supplements, massages, etc. Ours get Bermuda hay, maybe 1-2 scoops of pelleted hay, water, move around as they desire in the corral, no shots for 5 years now, farrier trims every 6 weeks...and seem healthy.

But moving isn't just about horses. One needs to find the place that works for the people involved too. We've seen how growth in Arizona has led to many places we once liked now looking like...well, certainly like places we no longer wish to live! Same is happening in Utah. And for me, months of snow and cold just doesn't thrill me!

The wife is suggesting we look at getting a good truck and trailer, and then we could haul the horses to Utah during the summer. Go camp and ride for a week or two, then bring them home. Trailer them to the mountains just 10-15 miles south of here for rides of a couple hours. And maybe move when we're down to one horse. Internet picture but this is about 20 miles from our house:



















https://www.arizonahighways.com/explore/scenic-drives/kentucky-camp​
It is just so hard to balance life!


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> We visited a boarding facility that specializes in breeding endurance Arabs.


 Just curious as to what place this was. There are several well-established distance rides in central Oregon that I hope to get to some day. Beautiful country for sure.

The desert is certainly a different climate than what you are used to! You need to listen to your gut about what place makes you happiest.


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## SueC

Brett wishes to say that in his opinion, when you're looking for a place to live, you should be checking out the density of bookshops (including second-hand bookshops) in the area! ;-) It's his big cultural litmus.


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## bsms

I don't live that far from Tucson, but a bibliophile here relies on Amazon. Men Against the Sea - a book I read decades ago - is on its way in hardcover. It is a novel based on what happened to Bligh and the loyal men after the mutiny on the Bounty. For all Bligh's faults, it was an incredible bit of seamanship!

Sharpe's Havoc: Richard Sharpe & the Campaign in Northern Portugal, Spring 1809 arrived yesterday, part of a series of books by Bernard Cornwell. Fictional but deeply based on history, with a chapter at the end pointing out differences between the story and the actual events. Sean Bean played him in a TV series:






Sharpe's Triumph: Richard Sharpe and the Battle of Assaye, September 1803 got me hooked. "_Most roundly dimensional and representing the extremes of British society are Wellesley, the coldly brilliant and fearless son of an earl, and Sharpe himself, the tortured, unlettered [illegitimate child - HF's software is kind of picky about words] from London's slums, who is determined to rise. Cornwell contributes vivid details in descriptions of life in an army camp, the dual military regimes of the East India Company and the regular army, and Indian politics. Best are the battle scenes, laid out clearly - there's a handy map - with all the heat, stink and blood of war and "the joys of slaughter." The reader's pleasure in all this gore may be a guilty one, but Cornwell, a master of battlefield writing, makes it too exhilarating to forgo._"

Can't imagine any bookstore in Tucson with the same interests I have...and Amazon would deliver to me even if I lived in Panguitch Utah (beautiful but way too small - 1500 - to live in for me).


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It is just so hard to balance life!


Yes. It's not like we're looking for a "perfect" life, but I say I'd like to find somewhere where we can live "unmolested." Gold Beach which is far down the coast has nice horse boarding and is a small town with a huge bookstore (lol). But there is a big drug problem there and parking in a secluded parking lot for a hike in several different spots, we saw sketchy people hanging around. Unmolested means hopefully parking a car for a hike and thinking it is unlikely to be broken into. Also I'd like to go to the store without having parking and driving there be a big hassle. It's nice to shop without crowds too. That's important to me.
Those are beautiful places in the photos you posted. The last one looks like Central OR.



phantomhorse13 said:


> Just curious as to what place this was. There are several well-established distance rides in central Oregon that I hope to get to some day.


It was called Sabiq Arabian Ranch (SAR) in Prineville. Their 100 mile horses were very nice looking, tall with big-boned legs. 



SueC said:


> Brett wishes to say that in his opinion, when you're looking for a place to live, you should be checking out the density of bookshops (including second-hand bookshops) in the area! ;-) It's his big cultural litmus.


That is something we like about the small town down the coast where we have difficulty finding boarding (Florence). It has a great bookstore, but also there is a thrift store that has thousands of used books and the lady who owns it has set it up like a library, with everything organized by subject and alphabetically. 



bsms said:


> I don't live that far from Tucson, but a bibliophile here relies on Amazon. Men Against the Sea - a book I read decades ago - is on its way in hardcover. It is a novel based on what happened to Bligh and the loyal men after the mutiny on the Bounty. For all Bligh's faults, it was an incredible bit of seamanship!


That's interesting, I just read that book. I actually read the trilogy of Mutiny on the Bounty, Men Against the Sea and Pitcairn's Island. They're all very good. We got rid of cable TV and are buying books instead. Many classics. Currently I am reading The Rainbow (not sure I can describe what it is about yet), The Sea Wolf, with a captain reminding me of Captain Bligh, and The Big Sleep which is an old detective story, very funny.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> That is something we like about the small town down the coast where we have difficulty finding boarding (Florence). It has a great bookstore, but also there is a thrift store that has thousands of used books and the lady who owns it has set it up like a library, with everything organized by subject and alphabetically.



So fix the water problem and do it! Rinsed Hondo off yesterday with hauled water. 2500 gallons goes a long ways. And the creek? Might be able to set up a solar pump to keep a storage tank filled from that. 



Be easier than moving many miles inland.


You're welcome!


Personally, I can fathom visiting my horse in a boarding facility no more than I can fathom visiting my dog in a full time boarding kennel. 



I know I'm lucky and thankful for it.


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## SueC

Yes, a tank can solve so many problems! 










Teeheehee. :Angel:

But in all seriousness, the water problem at that agistment place is fixable, and it is indeed easier to set up a tank than to live many miles inland if this isn't where you and your spouse really want to be, for yourselves - and I do actually, outrageously, think that decisions on where to live should primarily be about where you humans would like to live, not where your horses might prefer / do better - yes, you love your horses and their comfort is a factor, but it's often so much easier to fix your horse problems, than to fix problems you have as human beings because you lived somewhere that wouldn't have been your own first choice if you didn't have horses.

So make sure your own work, social, cultural and non-horse-recreational activities are addressed first, by where you choose to move to - and then you'll also be in a better position, financially and emotionally, to take care of each other and your horses. 

We moved just 25 minutes' drive out of Albany to where we live now, and the horses are on our own property etc, but that wasn't the main reason we wanted to move here, plus also, I would never have moved far into the sticks just to keep horses (of course, if I was a person who enjoyed living far out in the sticks, that would be different). We were actually, when we were moving, seriously looking at living in Denmark, a small coastal town 30 minutes from Albany - it's a nice hippie town with lots of bookshops and other shops run along ethical lines, and a lot of community activities, and most people not materialistic, and lots of thinking outside the box, and I would have loved to live in a community like that. But, property prices there were through the roof. We did make two offers on houses for sale, neither of them at the listed price because people were asking more than new-house prices for rather neglected houses that needed a lot of work. The offers were both rejected - with the second one in particular, we were pretty sad about that at the time, because we could have pictured ourselves living in it happily - it was a very unconventional house, in a lovely situation. But, it was also a very cold house in winter, and as it turns out, the house we live in now is so much better in so many ways than the houses we made offers on (of course, this meant putting five years of our spare time into building it ourselves).

The reason we bought where we did is because it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for us to live on an actual farm, that was still within a reasonable commute to work and places of cultural and recreational interest, and was never going to be swallowed up in developments and urban expansion. The drawback is the commute, and another that it's not a particularly great local community, unlike Denmark would have been; and even though I'm only 25 minutes away from all the facilities and community groups of Albany, where we lived before, I simply don't end up driving there to do Pilates or choir or whatever else I would have done if it was 5-10 minutes away, and I don't see my friends nearly as often as I used to. But neither of us have regrets about this, because at least if it became really important to us to do these things, we could find a way to do them again; and because there are so many compensations living out here at our place.

And our weekends are just as filled with hiking now as they were before we moved out here, on the same trails, because that's an easy thing to do from here; and we often grab a coffee or a kebab going through either Albany or Denmark on the way to a nice walking trail, so that we multi-task some social and cultural activities alongside our beloved walking.

Swings and roundabouts. But, yeah, I'd never have moved 100 km from Albany or Denmark to do what we did. We don't care about being 400km from Perth because we don't like that huge metropolis and don't need anything from it, but it's great being close to a good settlement with services, really good cultural amenities etc.

And also I'd never have done what I see so many horse people around our local area do - which is to move to some place just because they had horses, and then build these elaborate stables and horse facilities, and live in a cheaply built and not very comfortable little cardboard house themselves, just so they could have horses at their place. I'd rather have agisted, or not had horses at all, than do that; and especially because my husband isn't horse-mad and it's not his hobby, so I didn't want one of my hobbies to have an excessive impact on the way he was going to live for the rest of his days. A lot of talking went into the decision to buy this farm and move out here, and I would never have done it if I thought Brett was just going along to do me a favour because of the horses - we both had to want to live on this place for our own reasons - and I'd leave here in an instant if I thought Brett was getting unhappy out here, but thankfully (because we've both invested so much of our sweat, blood and tears into this place), we both still love it, and can work around the compromises of living here, which are, for both of us, outweighed by the positives of the place.

But having seen what my parents did, and the way that they tied themselves to their hobby in a way that was really destructive of family life, personal growth and wider experience, and didn't take into account democratically the dreams and welfare of everyone in the family, and how everything revolved around the horses and the people were second to the horses, and how the horses got shoved into expensive buildings they didn't want to be in and the homestead was left to deteriorate and fall apart because people were always too busy mucking out stables and walking excessive numbers of horses in and out of little feedlot paddocks and feeding them four times a day and obsessing about racing these animals and winning races (Brett thinks the whole thing was basically psychologically like a gambling addiction) - well, I would rather have given up horses altogether than live in anything that remotely resembled that kind of set-up.

So we live in a nice house, and our horses free-range over pasture largely feeding themselves, and get rugs on when it's cold, wet and windy, and people and horses are all happy this way, and much happier than the people and horses at my parents' place. And that's the irony, that you can't quantify your love and care for your animals by how much money you spend on them or how much of your own life you give up for them mucking out buildings they don't want to be in and bringing them their every meal - just as this is no measure of love and care for people. It's actually a narcissistic kind of "love" which is more about "look how much I do for them and how good I am" than healthy love, which is about, you know, teaching a man to fish instead of constantly giving him fish, which is about looking at the real needs of the people and animals in your life and catering to social and emotional needs in people, not just the physical, and ditto for your animals, and yeah, letting your horses have a more natural and independent sort of life where their social and exploratory needs are better met than when you lock them up in buildings. I realise we are very lucky here with being able to do that for our animals because we have a lot of space, but the agistment I had my mare in, in Albany in 2008, was also that kind of facility: Horses got most of their calories from grazing, and lived in a little herd, and had room to roam over large pastures, and lots of natural shelter, plus we rugged in the cold, wet and windy periods, and the proprietor would take rugs off horses in the morning for a sunny day, so you didn't have to come in twice a day to tend to your horse in rugging season.

Well, I certainly got reflecting this morning, and I hope that's been of some use to share that! 

Keeping my fingers crossed that you'll find what's right for all of you. :cowboy:


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> So fix the water problem and do it! Rinsed Hondo off yesterday with hauled water. 2500 gallons goes a long ways. And the creek? Might be able to set up a solar pump to keep a storage tank filled from that.
> 
> Be easier than moving many miles inland.
> 
> You're welcome!
> 
> Personally, I can fathom visiting my horse in a boarding facility no more than I can fathom visiting my dog in a full time boarding kennel.
> 
> I know I'm lucky and thankful for it.


Great advice! Boarding...when I bought Amore we lived in an apartment in the city. So began the boarding saga. Just starting out married, and living in the city so DH could go to college. After that we kept moving so kept renting and boarding. Finally bought a house about 6 years ago, but had great boarding at the time so decided to not get a house with property.

I've been drawn to the idea of having the horses at home. One thing that has held me back has been 12 hr shifts, but I know with the right set up that could work. I did self care for a year with 12 hr shifts and ended up tired and depressed. But that was mostly because I had to drive a half hour each way to the barn, plus all the horse care, and doing that every morning and night along with the long shifts was exhausting. And of course some would say why couldn't your DH help, but similar to what @SueC said, horses are my hobby and passion and I will not take on anything unless I am willing to do it all myself. I don't want to risk at all that horses become a burden to him or having horses seen as negative in any way. 

While we're looking for boarding because we will need to rent while selling our house, we are considering buying horse property this time. 



SueC said:


> ...And that's the irony, that you can't quantify your love and care for your animals by how much money you spend on them or how much of your own life you give up for them mucking out buildings they don't want to be in and bringing them their every meal - just as this is no measure of love and care for people. It's actually a narcissistic kind of "love" which is more about "look how much I do for them and how good I am" than healthy love, which is about, you know, teaching a man to fish instead of constantly giving him fish, which is about looking at the real needs of the people and animals in your life and catering to social and emotional needs in people, not just the physical, and ditto for your animals, and yeah, letting your horses have a more natural and independent sort of life where their social and exploratory needs are better met than when you lock them up in buildings...


Really great stuff. I agree very much that many who spend the most on their horses are in a narcissistic type of relationship where everything is about them rather than what is best for the horse. It's always the question of "Am I doing this for the animal, or just to make myself feel better?" Or maybe you are doing it to justify things you are doing that are harming the horse or making him miserable. 

I believe life is better when it is balanced, and while part of me would have enjoyed having an obsessed life where I competed seriously with horses and had great aspirations, I'm very glad I did not go that route since it would have crowded out many other things that I also enjoy. For example, good relationships with my DH, parents, siblings. Good relationships are very difficult if your life is about accomplishing big, time consuming goals. It also would have been fun to get heavily into sports competitions, but again I have not wanted to focus my whole life on one area. It is much more enjoyable to have my main passion of horses, but not having it take over everything to where I don't enjoy my running, playing the violin, reading, spending time with family, getting out hiking or kayaking with my DH, or giving time to his main passion of traveling. Also, the older I get, the more I believe horses need a balanced life also rather than one based on work and competition. Not only that, I think you also can have better relationships with your horses if you're not focused on trying to make them into something.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> I believe life is better when it is balanced, and while part of me would have enjoyed having an obsessed life where I competed seriously with horses and had great aspirations, I'm very glad I did not go that route since it would have crowded out many other things that I also enjoy. For example, good relationships with my DH, parents, siblings. Good relationships are very difficult if your life is about accomplishing big, time consuming goals. It also would have been fun to get heavily into sports competitions, but again I have not wanted to focus my whole life on one area. It is much more enjoyable to have my main passion of horses, but not having it take over everything to where I don't enjoy my running, playing the violin, reading, spending time with family, getting out hiking or kayaking with my DH, or giving time to his main passion of traveling. Also, the older I get, the more I believe horses need a balanced life also rather than one based on work and competition. Not only that, I think you also can have better relationships with your horses if you're not focused on trying to make them into something.


Yes, that's 100% my experience as well!  I too have a very competitive streak that I've learnt to manage, and I too believe that a balanced life with good relationships at the forefront, and broad interests rather than any sort of monomania, is a better life than one of striving very hard in just one particular area, to objectively do well in it or whatever. It seems to me that life is too short not to try to live it broadly and well. Would you like some Thoreau? ;-)










_“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close..."_


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## Hondo

Hondo is on free choice bermuda and 4.5 acres of pasture. He has a 100 gallon water tank with a heater in the winter that prevents freezing. I spend an excessive amount of time with him, for me. He tolerates me well and even comes up for TLC scratching at times when I'm sitting somewhere convenient for him.


I could work 12 hour shifts without him particularly noticing. Especially when I get another horse.


But land near larger cities is expensive I know.


People in Europe used to have their animals living in the same house, for heat or so I've read. That appeals to me in some ways. I had considered making his run in a duplex to the house I''m in but decided to put it 18 feet away.


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## egrogan

@Hondo, my good friend M built a small loft apartment above her little barn, and lives there with her two horses. Her laundry facilities are downstairs in the barn and double as a tackroom, and the electric system serves the whole building. She loves it that way.


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## bsms

That would work OK for me, @egrogan. My wife? Not so much....and "_Happy wife. Happy life._" - words of wisdom from a former squadron commander of mine!


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> @*Hondo* , my good friend M built a small loft apartment above her little barn, and lives there with her two horses. Her laundry facilities are downstairs in the barn and double as a tackroom, and the electric system serves the whole building. She loves it that way.



Thank You! I now feel 'a little more' normal now. That just sound so perfect. For now I guess it'll just be side by side cottages, but I may well set up a bunk in the run in. Just for fun but it'd be there for when......


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## gottatrot

I'm all for the bunking with the horses too. But, like @bsms, there are other people involved who like horses but don't want to necessarily _live_ with them...:smile:

Had a super ride on Hero yesterday. Something very encouraging with the stifles is that he seems to be able to go for extended periods of time now without formal exercise, without having any noticeable issues. After several days off last week, when I took him out again he moved freely and did not have problems. I believe one thing helping with this is that he feels well enough to keep moving in turnout. 

So yesterday I did not lunge before riding, and Hero moved out and was very calm. He only had one small spook, and it was very small for him. Other than that he walked freely, picked up the trot and moved out when I asked him, but without rushing, and picked up the canter when I asked him, without bucking. I'm not sure what all the contributing factors are that are helping him be more calm. 
Theories include: he's finally had enough time without pain to relax, and associate riding as less negative - the time of year where the weather is nice but not hot - I've been doing a lot of riding with Amore grazing nearby, so he has a calm horse in the area to feel safe and secure - he's finally thinking of me as a trustworthy partner, and working with me, and understanding my demands will not be unfair.

Whatever the reason, I see him relaxing now quite often. When I turn him out after exercise, he often lets his boy parts hang out. For him this seems to be a sign of having loose muscles and feeling relaxed. He also stands very calmly and leads more calmly quite often when I am working with him. 

Nala's owner has Nickel at a trainer and is showing him to people in order to try to sell him. There were videos and photos posted publicly to help with his sale, and for me it was enlightening to see other riders who are obviously good riders dealing with his rough gait...sometimes I would feel silly for bouncing on him so I thought it was interesting to see others bounce, LOL.

As you can see this rider handles him very well.


















And she noticed he was bumpy too!









Here she is grinning as she gets it all back together.


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## gottatrot

I've been having a bit of a struggle with white line disease with Amore (in two hooves). Even with daily treatment it does not seem to be improving. I've been trying everything from just plain soap and water scrubs to Vetericyn, No Thrush powder and Thrush Buster. 
I am certain the biggest problem is that with her Cushing's, her immune system is very poor, so opportunistic infections try to take over.

Luckily, just when I decided to search for something else, the forum seems to have come through with a post about B Gone White Line treatment which can be applied into the cracks or holes where it hardens and stays. That has been my issue - even though I clean and kill the organisms, they are soon reintroduced to the area by the sand, which is so fine it gets high up into any crevice. I ordered a tube of B Gone tonight.

Our hospital is functioning fairly normally nowadays. Staff are worried that wearing masks in hospitals will be required from now on. That would be quite annoying. Everyone dislikes them, because of comfort issues. We've found ways to help sore ears, but some people get skin break outs, some feel too warm, and they interfere with communication at times. I am hopeful they will go away after a while. Our organization is very honest with us. They have posted flyers that tell us everyone is required to wear a mask in our facilities, and the reason for this is not infection control but because patients have verbalized that if they see people not wearing masks it makes them feel scared.

I guess a lot of people think others should wear masks in stores and such. I personally do not wear a mask outside of work. They are uncomfortable and I believe science supports that they only protect others from people who have poor respiratory hygeine. That's not me, so there is no reason for me to wear one in conditions where it would be impossible for me to give any droplet spread disease to another person (i.e., no one is within six feet of me). That applies even if (especially if) you are an "asymptomatic carrier." Yes, those people are more dangerous when it comes to spreading, since people don't know to be cautious. But that doesn't mean you can get it from them unless you are standing within range of their spray when they are talking, and you stay in that spray for a while. No one out in my area of the world right now, shopping or otherwise is standing within range of a stranger's laughter or talk spray. If someone darts by you swiftly, within three feet but they are not facing you, and are not open-mouthed spraying something at you, there is absolutely no danger. No need to run away. The virus will not leap off of their body at you.

If you're going to be in close contact with someone who has Covid for an extended period of time, a mask is not likely to keep you from getting the disease. Serious infection control measures like we use in the hospital that provide covering for not only your mouth and nose but your eyes and clothing, and require frequent glove changes and handwashing will reliably protect you. But we know from other diseases that all of that is probably overkill. 

In almost 20 years as a nurse, I've worked with people with infectious respiratory diseases spread by droplet or contact transmission at least once a week. In many cases, it was not known that the people had an infection until after we had worked closely with them. Handwashing, and maintaining distance away from anyone actively coughing or sneezing (or masking that person if they keep it up) is highly effective in preventing disease transmission. Despite this constant potential exposure, the health care workers I have been around in my career are rarely sick. Without masks.

Our organization tracked 694 health care workers who were unknowingly exposed to Covid positive patients. These patients were diagnosed after the caregivers had taken care of them without wearing a mask, because they were not tested or isolated right away (this was prior to our "everyone wears a mask" policy). These caregivers followed the usual universal precautions of handwashing, not touching anything wet without gloves on, and staying away from coughs and sneezes. Out of the 694, only 2 ended up positive for Covid. I would not be surprised if those two were people who did not follow proper handwashing procedures, or were otherwise not being careful.

I love people, would never knowingly put others at risk, and don't mind following safety procedures that are logical. My not wearing a mask has nothing to do with being a rebel, an activist, or making a statement. If a store requires a mask, I will wear one if I want to go inside. I've read a lot of statements that basically shame people about not wearing masks, saying it is selfish, how much trouble is it for you really, stuff like that. But I believe it is a completely amoral act. No risk of harm to others, no reasoning behind it other than grossly exaggerated tales of how Covid "might" spread through the air and such. In a hospital I have a responsibility to not make the patients afraid, so they don't avoid care or have psychological stress. In the community I have no obligation to prevent psychological stress. If I feel like driving in a manner that you find stressful, as long as I am not breaking a law, too bad. If you find the clothing I wear annoying or stressful, that's fine. I don't have an obligation to prevent you from having mental stress. I believe many with tattoos on their faces cause stress to people like my mother, but I don't expect them to think about preventing stress to others when they make those lifestyle choices.

In Asian countries like Japan, many people wear masks around. But mostly for various psychological reasons. They'll wear a mask on a bike, driving a truck, or even at home alone. It's not that they're more savvy about infection control.

Some of my fellow nurses have been traveling around the state, getting out for hikes and such. Our governor has made statements discouraging this. One of my coworkers was blasted by people on FB for going out camping with her kids. All of this is illogical and ridiculous. For one thing, the stores in my area have a lot of people in them. When we went to central OR recently, the stores only had 3 or 4 people in them. Better for us to be out there, I would think. I think it's great my coworker was out in central OR this week letting her kids get some sunshine, play in the creeks and gather mushrooms.


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## gottatrot

I took a series of blurry photos yesterday. This was the best.










We have a serious scotch broom problem in Oregon.









I've heard it is also a problem in Washington, California, Canada, New Zealand, and other places. Thankfully I don't have an allergy to it, but it releases tons of pollen and many people are highly allergic. The horses don't seem to have a problem with it but I can't walk my dog through it or he gets stuffy and sneezy. 

All of this grassland where the barn is used to be sand dunes. The scotch broom was brought in to stabilize it so homes could be built and pastures put in. This worked very well, but the scotch broom continues to spread and thrive everywhere. It is difficult to eradicate, and if you let it grow more than a foot or two before cutting it, the base becomes a thick stump after it is cut, which makes the land bumpy and rough on horses' feet. The base will also put off new shoots and regrow quickly. 
My sister said in Scotland she saw scotch broom but in that climate it was only a foot tall or so. I've read that in europe there are also 30 species that feed on the scotch broom and keep it in check naturally.


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## bsms

I suspect masks became more normal in some countries where TB was a big problem. Once it is viewed as normal, then even the flu engenders "Why not?" - which is also why some argue for wearing helmets while riding. In fact, I see many parallels between the USA mask debate and helmets - a one size fits all approach combined with moral superiority assumed by both sides.

Seems to me we ought to remember there is much more to safety than masks or helmets, and much less. Neither makes one invulnerable. Both are very important at certain times and with certain activities. And both should be something adults can decide for themselves. I hope to ride Bandit in the desert solo within the next hour. For that...I prefer a helmet. No one knows exactly where I am and everywhere I go, there are big rocks. Bandit is a little more nervous when we are solo than when we are not, and so am I. But if I ride with my wife, I don't wear one. She doesn't wear one. She confided to me a year ago that she gave up riding in part because helmets tell her, "_This is very dangerous!_" It is psychological, but she tenses up (and thus rides worse) with a helmet. And how can you have fun if your subconscious is screaming, "_We're in danger!_" Besides....when my wife is with me, we walk. And walk. And stroll. She has no desire for speed!

So there are times I'm happy to wear a helmet, and times I'd rather not. I don't view safety measures as a moral issue. It is about determining an acceptable risk, based on the totality of what is going on. And different individuals assess those risks differently, which is why many of us refuse to climb cliffs for fun...

Not a mask wearing guy here, unless the store requires it - and I try to avoid stores that do. But if someone sneezes, I do this:








Followed by this:

:racing:​
And always wash my hands for 45+ seconds after I get home...

:smiley_flag:​


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## bsms

PS: Like my horses, I obey best when ordered least. I'll do a lot more for someone who asks nicely than someone doing the "Ask, Tell, DEMAND" thing.


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## Knave

I have never seen that plant before.

I don’t like being micromanaged by the government in any case. Many people see the REQUIREMENT of masks as the same thing. I don’t wear one, but the milk cow doesn’t seem to care. Lol. Not really relevant in my life. 

I look at many things that have become quite apparent lately. I’ve always disliked the over regulation of many things in our country. People defend the government so drastically I am often afraid to voice any dissonance. 

Look at the milk being pored onto the ground though! This was even happening while people couldn’t get milk. Cattle prices are tanking for the seller, and people cannot buy meat at the store. This is all in response to this over regulation, and it doesn’t hit people over the head like it does me. 

One odd talent I have is that I am very good at hair. I can dye it, cut it, and style it very well. A random talent for a person like myself, and yet, if I were to charge money for this I would be breaking a law. Obviously I need government regulation for cutting a persons hair. Scissors are highly dangerous you know, and bad haircuts kill people. Maybe I can comprehend the chemical pieces of it, like processing hair, maybe, but even as a consumer I feel I should be able to make that decision on my own.

These things seem obvious to me. I guess I am usually alone in my issues on over regulation though. In any case, a nasty side effect of Covid will be even more government power and regulation of individuals.


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## gottatrot

@Knave, that is a good skill to have, being able to cut hair.

I agree there are similarities between helmet wearing and mask wearing. But imagine if we were told we should wear helmets to protect other people.

We're told paper or cloth masks only contain large droplets and n95s are needed for tiny, suspended viruses like those spread by talking. So wearing a mask or maintaining distance offer the same amount of protection. For tiny, suspended particles only air flow dispersion helps. But those are not believed to contribute much to the spread of covid regardless.

I like analogies. What if they told us people were dying from head injuries around horses, and it was possible to give another person a head injury by knocking heads together when dismounting. Also, 3% of those who knocked their heads together could die. 

Would that motivate you to wear a helmet? What? How selfish are you? Someone might die!!

Or would you just say you promise to be careful to keep enough distance to not knock heads with anyone.

Just because other riders worried you might knock heads with them, that would not be a very compelling reason to wear a helmet, if you were positive you would never dismount close enough to knock heads and had never had it happen before.


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## gottatrot

This week we went down the coast to do more hunting around. 

I visited the 20 acre property, and it was certainly beautiful. At first I was very positive about it, because when I went down to the water source I saw it was not a creek but a river, 15 feet wide and at least 10 feet deep. Something that would never dry up around here. Plus there would be no need to pump anything because there was a sloping, sandy bank directly from the pasture so the horses could easily drink from the river. It was only after discussing with DH all the subtle details of the place that I became less positive.

To make it work, I would need to have two shelters put in, one for hay and one for the horses, and also put up a lot of fencing. The perimeter is fenced, but it would not be acceptable to have either Hero or Amore in roaming with the other person's mini. Hero is so much nicer to small critters than Amore is. Yet I couldn't trust him to not fling a hind leg at some point and the mini is just too small to take a blow like that. Amore is different - if the mini annoyed her she would definitely try to kill him. 

All of that would be doable. But the biggest reservation is the space sharing and the person involved, which I don't think I would handle well. I have been bothered by those who are overly into keeping horses "naturally," and I can tell things would bother me a lot. I had mentioned I would need to make smaller areas because there is just too much grass on the 20 acres, but the other boarder didn't think that was necessary. The two horses she had out there were a large pony, and a tiny mini. You couldn't even see the mini except for his ears moving through the grass, because it was as tall as his head. All I could think of was that the mini was going to die. 20 acres of super green, lush cow pasture grass and a mini. The other thing was that the two horses did not seem bonded, and were grazing several acres apart. DH thought a mountain lion was sure to get the mini. This is a very secluded place with forested mountains next to the pasture. So we both saw a dangerous place, and didn't really want to be involved. 

We also visited some other options that I had discovered recently. Some were definite no-gos...one place only takes geldings. Another was very nice but a private setup with only two horses and one large pasture. If Hero did not get along with the gelding (and I've not known him to get along with a gelding yet), then it would not work.

But there is one place that I am seriously thinking about. It would be a half hour drive, so not bad. The owner was one of the nicest people I've met, an older lady. It is a self care place, but with a few boarders and the setups are fields with shelters. All I would need is to find one of the boarders who would feed for me once a day, and then it would work out fine. There would be lots of room for that in the budget because the board is (I can't believe how low) $75 a horse. The board includes a small tack room and a decent sized hay storage area attached to the shed. Also there is a good feed store just across the gravel road from the property.

The field Amore and Hero would share is a good sized paddock. There is an outdoor arena and round pen, and some riding on the property. The only issue is that there are also large pastures for turnout, and it would be a dilemma for me that I would not be able to go twice a day, and I am not optimistic about finding anyone who could turn out or in for me. It is possible but unlikely there is someone there who has handled track Thoroughbreds, and could safely lead Hero down the hill to the pastures, about 1/8th of a mile. They also would probably want to go together, especially until they felt safer in the new place, and either could be a handful if upset. Amore spooked just yesterday out of nowhere, which involved a hard hoof plant on my foot. 
There is a vet boarding there, and I think she said a vet tech too, but I would assume those would be busier people and less likely to need the cash I could offer for their services. 

The paddock they would be in is larger than many horses live in, especially in places like Arizona or California. I could turn them out for gallops in the pasture and several hours of grazing a few times a week. So I am trying to remember that if this place is the best option, everything does not have to be so perfect. But it is a little sad since each paddock has its own dedicated pasture too, and I would wish the horses could be out in that big space more often. But definitely this seems the best option so far.

Rental houses are even trickier...I have asked about one so far but they are reluctant about pets. This always floors me that people are so worried about pets but will allow renters that have several little kids. In my opinion kids are far messier than pets. They also are known to make messes in inappropriate places, probably far more often than my well mannered, older dog and two cats.


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## SueC

It looks like there's some options. If you rent closer to the horses would you be commuting less? (Assuming you work five days a week, and see your horses daily.)


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## gottatrot

@SueC, yes, it would be less commuting if we could be closer to the horses. 

Yesterday I was finally able to meet up with Nala's rider for a ride on the beach. She was bringing another rider from out in the country, so we met at the beach parking lot about a mile and a half from my barn. Knowing Hero would have some separation anxiety, I decided to just lead him until we met up with the other horses rather than trying to get him to walk fast enough to meet them in time.

Hero was a little anxious, but I was pleased that he was able to walk (at a nice pace) next to me and only rarely gave a half-hearted pretend bite. Once he couldn't help himself and before I could blink my whole hand was inside his mouth, but he thought better of it and didn't bite it, just left me with a slobbery hand. There were lots of cars and noisy activity on the beach. I've been working a very little at separating him from Amore, but mostly I've just been working on manners in general, and this did seem to have paid off.

What was cute was when Hero and Nala saw each other. They got very excited, pressed their faces against each other and Nala got trembly all over. Hero was more relaxed once we were with the other horses. The other rider had an older QH mare named Cricket. 

I have been keeping Hero fit so if the opportunity came up to go for a trail ride, I could take him without any concerns. He was more than fit, and I was very pleased that even on a longer ride he had all the "go" he'd been missing in the past. He's finally at a very good place physically. There was no question of him feeling discouraged, it was all forward, forward the entire ride and no stickiness.

I expected him to be excited about riding with the other horses, and there were some shenanigans of course. Not a lot of walking the first mile or two, and when Nala cantered on the beach he got a little overstimulated and bucked. After that, we cantered quite a bit and he handled himself very well. Thankfully, the other young gal had a horse she was urging to keep up with us, so there were no issues of being overstimulated by Hero or Nala. Cricket did not seem winded and we would stop and wait for her to catch up now and then. Her rider seemed exhilarated by our pace, and she kept commenting on how I handled Hero (I don't have the sense to be embarrassed about horse antics I can't control), and said she never minded being with a hot horse as long as the owner was in control. 

We started by going the first mile or so on the dune grass, since the beach was busy, then on the trails behind the dunes, and finally back down the beach. 

There is some perception that people ride hotter horses because it helps their ego; in my case I feel that I've spent a lot of time, money and energy on this horse so I'm going to ride him, dang it. Since I can, I do. It was quite fun, although a good workout.
He definitely has a different way of going than he used to. Nala's rider thinks he looks like a morgan stallion now. If his neck were a bit thicker, she might be right. I believe it is the amino acids that finally helped him fill out his neck and hindquarters more, to get more strength of movement. 
She has had no luck selling Nickel yet, although a few have come and had seemingly good rides on him. He is just a bit big and a handful. She said the main reason she wants to sell him is because she can't put other riders on him except for me and one other lady. It would be fine if she didn't have Nala as her main ride.


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## Knave

Hmm... you are in Oregon... Is Cricket a little dark sorrel?


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> Hmm... you are in Oregon... Is Cricket a little dark sorrel?


She is a bit lighter with a big blaze. Was from a feed lot about six years ago her owner said, around 22 years old.


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## Knave

The age would be right, but I think the mare I knew had a smaller strip on her face, not a big blaze. Sweet mare though that I knew from Hermiston in her youth.  I just thought I’d ask.


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## gottatrot

Aww that would have been neat if it was the same Cricket.

Just wanted to say a little more about the Amino Acids I've been feeding Hero. I've added them to Amore's diet recently as well but don't see any results yet with her. 
Anyway, I am wondering if they might be important for some horses around where I live - and maybe for horses in similar climates with tons of rain (as I speak it is pouring down outside). For one thing, my barn has been buying local grass hay rather than Eastern OR or WA grass hay lately. When you soak hay it gets rid of much of the protein and mineral content, and soaking is a condition our pastures are under most of the year. I heard recently of someone who had a bunch of cows die after moving here from Eastern OR. The cows would not eat hay over the winter, wanting to fill up on the green grass which was a novelty for them. But they ended up with a lack of nutrition and got sick and died. 
Seeing how Hero has filled out more with the Amino Acids added, it makes me believe that this may be something lacking in the bulk of their diet.


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## Knave

That’s very interesting. I wonder if my horses would do that...


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## gottatrot

Sporting a new tattoo on my right thigh...I'm learning I don't know cow body language at all and my attempts to adapt my sister's cows to having their legs handled have so far gotten me kicked twice. I watched the cow, which tolerates being brushed and petted, and she did not seem at all upset, so I ran my hand down her leg one more time and wam! These are small cows and do not kick like horses but still I have a decent hematoma. 

After reviewing how much work it would take to get the cows tame enough for hoof handling, my sister has decided she will just use the vet each year for hoof trimming.

I am trying not to get my hopes up too high, but we have run into a lot of road blocks with our move down the coast. 
This has made DH consider moving less far, back to the town where we lived 4 years (10 yrs ago). I hadn't let myself wish that way because our life can't be just about my horses. But this is where my dearest friends live, the ones who taught me how to really ride and I could keep my horses with them. 

When I brought it up to my parents and sister, it made them want this too, because they understand we want to move but it would be 1.5 hrs away instead of 5. And DH's mom is in a nursing home that would only be 45 minutes from there also. 

So it would have many benefits. 
It would be so exciting if it worked out...I am the only one who rides at my barn now that Nala's rider has moved. My other friends have 7 interesting horses currently and I could ride all of them, they could also ride Hero and it would be so good for both of us. 

I also have a hard time trusting for example that the various people who feed at the barn will be positive my horses eat their pills, and Amore gets her pellets soaked enough she won"t choke. So I go feed every day. But these friends I trust 100%. They are expert horse people. 
I was hoping for a nice new situation before, but now I am praying hard it will work out.

I tried something interesting with Hero yesterday and put him in a mechanical hackamore. It wasn't a long ride so the jury is out but he seemed to really like it. He was very quiet.


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## SueC

Good luck with the move... sometimes it's really stressful to make such big decisions about where to live because it changes our lives, like a sort of choose-your-own-adventure novel; and when I read those as a kid, I also would go back and re-read them until I'd gone through all the different possibilities the book had to offer. And life has so many more possibilities than one of those books, but as I live this life, I'm so aware that there's all these potential other lives I could have lived. Sometimes we wonder, "What would life be like if we'd bought that house in Denmark?" - etc - and it's a bit freaky to think about the lives we didn't live and the friends we didn't make, when we're living the life we live with the friends we did make. But that's how it always is, and all we can do is choose carefully and then live the best we can...


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## gottatrot

Thanks @SueC for the great advice.

The horses had their spring vaccines and dentals yesterday. I've been reading so many horror stories on the forum lately about dentals. Thankfully, I've used my current vet for years now so I know she can be trusted to do a good job. But I have slight insecurity now knowing so much can go wrong.

With Amore I am basically paying quite a bit (routine dental fee) for very little work. But what the vet is doing is removing sharp points (which she still develops between visits) from the surfaces she has left, and making sure there are no loose teeth or abscesses, especially important since Amore has Cushing's and any lesions in her mouth could lead to big infections. 
The vet thought Amore looked great and she could still stand up under sedation, which some old horses with bad hooves and joints cannot, so it's great she has good hooves still and energy. 

Hero was developing a slight imbalance on one side of his upper molars, so that was addressed. Otherwise he has pretty good teeth for a TB, which often have problems according to the vet. 

It made me feel good that the vet and the assistant thought Hero was very well behaved and they even called him a gentleman. Except I ruined the perfect visit right at the end. Hero was all done and still sedated, but he was standing in a stall (there are some in the lower barn that no horses ever use) because the vet likes to use the door frame to hang her sling that she uses to hold the horses' heads up. 
Outside the stall was a small folding table and a caddy with a few of the vet's supplies like syringes on top. One of the sedation medications always makes the horses pee at some point, so I decided to walk Hero out of the bare stall and into the deep sand just outside, so he could pee out there. Except when I walked him out he stumbled because he was groggy and knocked over the table and the vet's supplies. I felt stupid and apologized a lot, thankfully nothing was broken. 

It reminded me of a time when a farrier came and was telling us about his special caddy that was an antique and had been handed down from a family member. Of course one of the horses a short time later either tripped or spooked and landed right on the caddy, breaking it to pieces. I swear Murphy's law is a real thing! If he only hadn't mentioned it...


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## gottatrot

Rode again last night in the mechanical hackamore. Hero really seems to like it. There are a couple of small head shakes but I believe those were related to the bugs since it was near dusk. This is the kind of ride we've been doing frequently, focusing a lot on a relaxed, marching walk. Amore was happy to graze around us. We were in one of the pastures that is not their "home" pasture so it is interesting for them to explore in it. 






Song is "How to Save a Life" by The Fray. 
I thought the lyrics were interesting for a horse like Hero. Hopefully you can see in the video he is relaxing more and turning into a good riding horse.



> ...Let him know that you know best
> Cause after all, you do know best
> Try to slip past his defense
> Without granting innocence
> Lay down a list of what is wrong
> The things you've told him all along
> And pray to God he hears you
> And I pray to God he hears you...
> 
> ...As he begins to raise his voice
> You lower yours and grant him one last choice
> Drive until you lose the road...


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## Knave

I do love that song. He looks like he isn’t bothered by the hack. It’s funny what some horses prefer.


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## Dragoon

I watched the video and the song running through my head was Metallicas 'Until it sleeps', but replacing the words with 'And Still Amore Eats'...

Hero is looking so good now! He looked awkwardly put together before you owned him. Makes me daydream of all the horses at my barn, picturing what they would look like if on an exercise program, and clean...


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## phantomhorse13

I also like that song. Hero looks very relaxed in the hack.


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## gottatrot

So funny @Dragoon! I've also had that issue, wishing I could get other horses at barns fit and looking their best. 

At my current barn there are only 8 horses now, and the only one other than Hero under age 25 is permanently lame. So this makes it easier to see everyone lounging and unfit. But it is a happy retirement. 

Hero thanks everyone for the compliments. Those hero types have such fragile egos you know. Heaven forbid you didn't notice the rippling muscles, etc.


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## gottatrot

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

I wanted to share this link @bsms posted which is an analysis of wearing masks to help the spread of covid.

Yes, every added layer will prevent disease spread more. 
In the hospital the practice we follow is layered. If we are alone or more than six feet apart, masks often come down. No one complains because we all understand infection control. 

Within six feet of other people, including sick, intubated or coughing people we wear paper masks, if we believe covid is not involved. Only because it is policy.

Doctors have become much more selective about testing, because they know patients receive better care and have better outcomes if they are not waiting for test results.

For example, a patient in the first 24 hrs of bacterial pneumonia with sepsis. Without covid test pending the door to the room is open. The nurse listens for a gurgling cough and walks in every few minutes to titrate drips up and down and suction out secretions. The bacteria clears out of the lungs rapidly and he improves. 

In a covid room the nurse must put on layers of gear for every entry, drip adjustments and meds are delayed, she waits until the patient is really choking before going in rather than performing routine respiratory hygeine. It may lead to worsening sepsis and death.

Back to the layers...we understand it is risky to be within six feet of someone who might have covid, based on symptoms. We don't even consider a paper mask as doing anything. We see it as stay outside of six feet and be safe, no mask needed. Or be within six feet and a paper mask is stupid. 

Within six feet I need an N95 mask plus a face shield to cover my eyes and gloves on, which I will throw away after each time I touch something, before I touch myself.

We absolutely do not think if a paper or cloth mask as preventing transmission to others. "Lowers the risk" is not acceptable. It is unquantifiable. If I am breathing down on you and aerosolizing droplets, with a paper mask if I am sick I may still have at least a 95% chance of giving you a virus. 

So we all behave as though we are maskless and do not cough or sneeze, spit or breathe heavily on others. With these precautions most likely a mask reduces disease transmission very little, if at all. Because we have spent so many years around contagious respiratory viruses and know this works.

As I have said, the tracing done in our hospitals setting showed 2 people getting covid from infected people out of hundreds of close contacts with no masks. 
This would not be the case in the general public even with masks in such close contact. This is because of the protective measures we take that actually work.

When going out, if you can't keep a distance, don't think a paper mask will help. Put on an N95 and goggles, and never touch yourself unless you sanitize your hands. I'd never enter a crowd with a paper mask on.


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## gottatrot

Some of you like @egrogan and @Hondo have tried Scoot Boots. I was wondering if you could help with some questions.

Hero inherited Halla's Renegade boots, and they have worked fine. However, I'm considering trying Scoot Boots on him next because they seem to have a lower side to side profile. Occasionally, Hero will rub the insides of the boots together on his hind legs when he steps close, and this has resulted in micro-fraying of the wires on the inside. Basically the black disc that holds the screw has frayed the wires on the opposite boot lightly from the recurring abrasion. As a result I'm getting some jabs from the tiny wires when I clean the boots.








My thought is that the sides of the Scoot Boots with no hardware would work better for him with this issue.

His other issue is that although he does not do a constant toe drag with every step of the hinds at the walk and trot like he used to, he still touches down at the trot quite often with his toe after he picks up the foot. This does not affect the front velcro of the Renegades much, other than getting it dirty. 
To me it looks like you might be able to replace the screws on the Scoot Boots, if for example the screw heads wore off after a time from the toe dragging. Is that correct? I might be riding on gravel more in the future, which on the one hand Hero tends to push off better on harder ground and not drag, but on the other hand if he does touch down it would cause more wear to the boot.

Another question: Do you think the Scoot Boots would be secure enough to stay on during bucking and kicking out with the hind legs? I have had really good luck with the Renegades staying on. I think I've had Hero step on himself and lose a front one once, and kick off a back one with a super acrobatic move once. Other than that, they have amazed me by staying on sometimes when he was really violently kicking his legs high in the air. I have seen that people wear the Scoot Boots galloping and jumping, so I am assuming they will be quite secure like the Renegades, if they are fitted really well?


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## Hondo

The screws are replaceable on the Scootboots. They are fairly high on the boot so I would think the toe dragging would need to be fairly severe to affect them.


Can't speak to bucking and rearing but yes, fit is everything as with most boots including Renegades. Based on my experiences and knowing what I do know from that experience, if I were buying boots they would be Scootboots. If they were unavailable, I'd buy Renegades.


Comment on masks: From my random readings it does seem that there is a direct correlation between the degree of Covid-19 infections in various societal areas based on the degree of embracing masks by those areas.


I believe it is a no-brainer that an infected person without symptoms wearing a mask is much less likely to spray the large droplets toward me thus reducing the virus load that I may receive. And I believe my wearing a mask in public encourages (to some degree) others to wear a mask. In that way the mask I wear does protect me in addition to the stopping power it has. I do use NEPA 95% filter fabric from a vacuum bag in an insert to the mask. I have not read tests, but in my mind the leakage around the edges would be difficult for the larger droplets to negotiate a 180 degree turn and more likely splatter on the side of my face where the Covid would dry out and die.


Other than the infrequent trip to town, I would need to catch it from myself I'm so isolated, but still I yield to the CDC even though their directions and recommendations have changed as new information comes in.


And lest we forget, we need to remember the large choir that was social distancing but where way over 50% became infected and some died.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Comment on masks: From my random readings it does seem that there is a direct correlation between the degree of Covid-19 infections in various societal areas based on the degree of embracing masks by those areas.
> 
> And lest we forget, we need to remember the large choir that was social distancing but where way over 50% became infected and some died.


Thanks for the info on the boots. Sounds promising for the Scoot Boots.

Re: masks, I would just recommend imagining you do not have one on, and behave accordingly. That is the safest. My message is not a political "don't let people stomp on your freedom and tell you to wear a mask." My message is "understand that masks do very little." 
Maintaining distance and handwashing are far, far more important based on everything I've read over the years in studies.
People talk about viral load but we really don't know how much virus you need to be exposed to in order for your body to replicate a huge viral load inside your body. I am not aware of evidence yet that people must be exposed to more than a tiny amount of the virus to be infected. 


> In the absence of infectious dose data, researchers have been trying to determine whether a high viral load corresponds to worse illness. A report from China suggested that there is no difference between how much coronavirus a person is exposed to and how sick they get.


https://www.sciencealert.com/does-the-amount-of-covid-19-virus-you-are-exposed-to-determine-how-sick-you-ll-get

The choir may have been "social distancing," but they had more than one practice with the infected person where they attended, along with breaks, standing and chatting together, etc.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/coronavirus-washington-choir-outbreak-trnd/index.html


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> My message is "understand that masks do very little."



Again, reports that I read on areas that embrace masking opposed to those that do not seems to 'give the lie' to your message. NOT calling you a liar of course, just using an idiom.


I'd be interested in reading medical studies that indicate masks do very little if you have one or some readily available. I know, I 'could' search, but you're here.......



The State of Oregon is outstanding in the low number of cases within the US. Arizona was also at one point but now Arizona seems to be leading the pack. Makes me wonder if Oregon may start to 'catch up' at some point. The experts seem a little puzzled about some of the unexpected behaviors of the covid.



I would have tended to think a nurse would give the covid patient the same treatment as a common flu patient even though it might be more troublesome in terms of the gear required.


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## bsms

"_an infected person without symptoms wearing a mask is much less likely to spray the large droplets_"

An infected person without symptoms is much less likely to spray the large droplets regardless! 

If I don't sing loudly (never), grunt vigorously (never), cough or sneeze, if I am breathing thru my nose (99% of the time or greater), I don't present a danger to anyone 6 feet from me. Or 10', which is closer to my comfort level.

"_At Desert Diamond’s four casinos in Tucson, Sahuarita, Glendale and Why, all guests will have their temperatures taken and masks will be provided._"

https://tucson.com/business/tucson-...cle_ee7a8151-9d12-5190-a125-b15bd806362c.html

I cringed when I saw the casinos were opening up again with mandatory masks. Diabetes and severe obesity is rife among several tribes. Paper masks, or my neck gaiter that I can cough through, won't protect them - and they are high risk. Lots of people, limited space, recirculating unfiltered air, long time exposure, weight issues and diabetes - and open up again with masks? Some businesses need to stay closed until we have much better solutions!

BTW: "_Before the 1940s, diabetes was probably uncommon among American Indians/Alaska Natives (AI/AN) (1). In 1940, only 21 cases of diabetes were identified among the Akimel O’odham people (Pima) living in the Sonoran Desert on the Gila River (2)....

...During 2010–2012, AI/AN adults aged >20 years were 2.1 times as likely to have diabetes diagnosed compared with non-Hispanic white adults (15.9% versus 7.6% respectively) (5).The age-adjusted rate of diagnosed diabetes among AI/AN adults varied by region from 6.0% among Alaska Natives to 24.1% among American Indians in southern Arizona (5)._"

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/su/su6501a3.htm

Another example of failure in how we've affected the native people in America.

"_I'd be interested in reading medical studies that indicate masks do very little if you have one or some readily available._"

This is from 2016, before 99% of us paid any attention to masks:

https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-work-revealing-review/

PS: Arizona CASES are skyrocketing. Deaths? Not really:



















ICU use in Arizona is currently around 80%, which is pretty normal. It was depressed during April as many operations were delayed. Pima County health officials say the vast majority of our new cases involve those under 45 with no comorbidity.


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## Hondo

I tend to defer to these guys. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449


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## Hondo




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## bsms

Arizona government statistics here. This is where I pulled my screenshots:

https://www.azdhs.gov/preparedness/...se-epidemiology/covid-19/dashboards/index.php

Deaths take a few days to get reported, so ignore any drop in deaths during the final week.

I'm not big on the Mayo Clinic. They reject the Keto diet as being very effective and say it cannot be maintained over time. I've seen my blood pressure drop 40 points, kicked my blood pressure medicine and feel better than I've felt in 30 years using it! I find I start pounding the weight back on as soon as I start eating carbs. 

What the Mayo Clinic says:

"_While the research is exciting, there's very little evidence to show that this type of eating is effective — or safe — over the long term for anything other than epilepsy. Plus, very low carbohydrate diets tend to have higher rates of side effects, including constipation, headaches, bad breath and more. Also, meeting the diet's requirements means cutting out many healthy foods, making it difficult to meet your micronutrient needs._"

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...opular-diet-trends-of-the-moment/art-20390062

Doesn't match my experience at all! I plan to do Keto until I die. I simply feel too good following it to quit and am seeing the blood pressure results backing it up. And no, my cholesterol hasn't gone up either! Not having constipation, headaches or bad breath. Just vastly lower blood pressure, 40 lbs lighter and feeling great. Given the virus, much lower weight and blood pressure was pretty timely!


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## gottatrot

Some studies about face masks. 

Most masks are completely safe to wear, possibly causing some minor facial abrasions or rashes, or general irritation. Medically fragile people should still be careful, however. We did have one patient in the ICU because she had a heart condition, and wearing a mask to go shopping caused her to breath more rapidly and accelerate her heart rate, which in her fragile state did cause her to have a minor heart attack.
https://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/article.aspx?articleid=2085803

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/cloth-masks-are-useless-against-covid-19



> Despite clear evidence that facemasks act to protect the theatre staff from macroscopic facial contamination, there are studies to suggest that they fail to protect surgeons from potentially hazardous sub-micrometre contaminants.21 This corresponds roughly to the size range of infectious bacteria while viruses are even smaller. Therefore, the protection that masks confer in the form of macroscopic facial contamination may not necessarily extend towards any microscopic infectious agents present within that contamination.
> 
> Proponents of the surgical facemask may argue that even if they fail to completely negate the risks of infection they are likely to reduce exposure in a dose-dependent manner. While this field has not been extensively investigated, preliminary work suggests that facemasks fail to confer any degree of protection from infection due to streptococcal and staphylococcal bacterial species22 or hepatitis B virus.23 Furthermore, a facemask splash may promote a false sense of security, as surgeons may be less likely to report these as an occupational exposure to bodily fluid compared to frank facial contamination.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/



> ..the lack of conclusive evidence does not substantiate claims that surgical masks are ineffective for the public, but calls for further research, particularly on the reason behind *the failure of transferring the effectiveness observed in health care workers to the general population, and the strategies needed to boost the effectiveness*. For example, non-compliance, such as incomplete coverage of the mouth and nose or frequent removal and re-use of the same facemask in public spaces, is frequently reported as a major challenge in previous studies; but these could be addressed through enhancing public health education.


Why are masks more effective in health care workers? Because we follow handwashing and stay out of range of coughing and sneezing. This is also why at my hospital the tracking studies showed that health care workers were not being infected when exposed to people with Covid even before we were being asked to wear masks. 



> Furthermore, compared with other hygiene measures, wearing facemasks is a highly visible and iconic behaviour that might increase the public’s risk awareness and encourage them to seek other relevant health information and improve their personal hygiene behaviours, *many of which have been proven to be effective in infection control (e.g. handwashing, social distancing)*.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7184463/

Mask wearing is being promoted because it will raise awareness about the risk of infection, for visual reminders, and as they say to help those who are coughing and sneezing realize they shouldn't spray all over public places. 
Proven effective infection control measures are handwashing and maintaining distance.
There is no reason not to wear a mask, but that does not mean there is necessarily any reason for other than societal conditioning for a non-sick person to wear one either. 

Anecdotally: 
I have worked at two different hospitals that had at one point a "MRSA" surgeon. Hospitals will never blame surgeons for high infection rates. So both places did many very expensive and extreme things to lower their infection rates. Changed the entire filtration and air systems for the operating rooms. Bought new sterilization equipment. Got rid of sterilization staff. Got rid of laundry workers. Made rules that no hospital scrubs could leave the building, even if people bringing them back put them into the commercial laundry. Changed operating room cleaning procedures. 

After all this, there was only one common denominator in the infections which was the surgeon. In the OR there are people watching constantly for any breaks in the sterile field. Any routine practice of contamination would have been caught. In a small community it would be very rare for a surgeon to cancel surgery because of a cold or cough. Can you imagine, having sterile gown, and gloves on, being completely scrubbed in, and also having a runny nose or cough? Do you think you could avoid dripping and coughing for the hours of the surgery? 
Coughing or sneezing through the mask was the only way we could believe so many patients got infected during surgery, and so the nurses guess that both surgeons must have MRSA colonized in their noses. Both hospitals finally did come to the conclusion that the surgeons needed to go elsewhere (to spread their germs at a new place).


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## Hondo

I question how it could be clearly determined with certainty that the face mask caused the heart attack.


I understand social distancing and face masks but remain puzzled about the need for hand washing for the general public since eating the covid doesn't result in infections. My understanding has been that it need to reach a mucous membrane.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> I question how it could be clearly determined with certainty that the face mask caused the heart attack.


It was a clear correlation. For example, usually your heart rate and respiratory rate might be 110 and 22 when walking through grocery store. For someone with poor heart function, an increased respiratory rate will cause an increased heart rate. For her, putting the mask on and walking through the store made her respiratory rate go up, and consequently her heart rate (try breathing fast and check your pulse), which for a healthy person would not be a problem any more than it would be to go running. Most likely the mask made her respiratory rate go up because of a perceived lack of air, even though most do not affect oxygen intake. It has been observed that some people unconsciously hyperventilate when wearing a mask, more when exercising. This woman had filters in the mask, so it was less porous than some.

For people with poor cardiac function, their heart rates need to remain low. Their heart muscles are somewhat floppy, and need more time between beats to fill with blood in order to get the stretch needed to get enough blood volume out with each contraction. Think of a rubber band stretching farther and creating more snap when it returns. When their heart rate gets higher, there is less time to stretch, less blood volume coming out of the heart, which consequently causes the physiological response of the body trying to raise the heart rate even more to get more output. For a normal person, an increased heart rate means higher output. At some point an unhealthy heart can't keep up with the rate. The weak heart muscle becomes fatigued, and can cause damage.

The doctors told her she should not walk long distances wearing a mask, but ride in a cart or have someone else help with shopping.
As silly as it seems, I am certain if this story were in the press, people would want to publish articles about how masks cause heart attacks. That is the kind of sensationalism that is rampant at the moment. The mask only created an environment where the woman exercised more intensely than she should with a bad heart.



Hondo said:


> I understand social distancing and face masks but remain puzzled about the need for hand washing for the general public since eating the covid doesn't result in infections. My understanding has been that it need to reach a mucous membrane.


That is why I wish the emphasis on face masks was reduced and handwashing emphasized more. Why does this bug me? Because I'm a person who believes facts matter, and I think we should tell people things more truthfully instead of telling them things that aren't exactly true (possibly maybe might be helpful) in order to influence behaviors for the greater good. 
You can have respiratory viruses on your hands and lick them, it won't make you sick. However, more often people rub their eyes and noses with their hands, introducing viruses straight to the mucous membranes. I guess the hope is that with masks, people will remember not to cough in public, and so there won't be viruses to get on your hands...?

We are told in hospitals that the #1 most important thing we can do for infection control is wash our hands. #2 is avoid touching anything that is wet, and if we do, immediately take our gloves off and throw them away. Then sanitize our hands. 
The mantra is: "If it's wet and not yours, don't touch it." 
#3 is the 6 foot rule. Stay six feet away from anyone coughing, sneezing or spraying. The CDC talks about face coverings and how they _may and are likely_ to help with the spread of disease, if a 6 foot distance cannot be maintained. "Time and distance." The more time you spend in close proximity with anyone infected, the more likely you are to become infected. In hospitals we do many things in close contact with people. If they are spreading their body fluids in any way, we cover the area that is spreading it, cover ourselves, and get in, get out. 

In a grocery store, if you want to be safe, don't spend any time in close proximity with another person. It should not be "mask, then distance, then wash your hands." It's #1 maintain distance. #2 wash your hands. Wear a mask as part of the disease awareness program. Don't touch the outside of the mask unless you sanitize your hands right away. The message right now is #1 wear a mask. That's just because they think it will help everyone remember there is a disease going around. IMHO.

The mask emphasis came after things began opening up, and I believe many people were losing interest in the covid story. We don't have very long attention spans, and I noticed most of my coworkers didn't talk about it anymore. People were beginning to behave normally, and I think there was a fear that people would forget and begin coughing and sneezing on everyone, spreading the virus more. Most likely this would have been true. So I think people in disease control decided it was time to say everyone should wear masks, lest we forget that we are supposed to behave differently from normal.


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## Hondo

RE: #2 is avoid touching anything that is wet, and if we do, immediately take our gloves off and throw them away. Then sanitize our hands.


This is bumfuzzeling to me. If the gloves are the only thing that touched wet, and they are properly removed, ( i have had that training), then why sanitize the hands after removal since they didn't touch wet?


Why not just leave the glove on and sanitize the gloves by washing in bleach or whatever? That's exactly what I have done in the past. I keep a spray bottle of bleach mix in my truck.



It was also demonstrated how to reapply unsanitary gloves in an emergency but recommended not to do it. This was by emergency medical people to city workers.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> This is bumfuzzeling to me. If the gloves are the only thing that touched wet, and they are properly removed, ( i have had that training), then why sanitize the hands after removal since they didn't touch wet?
> 
> 
> Why not just leave the glove on and sanitize the gloves by washing in bleach or whatever? That's exactly what I have done in the past. I keep a spray bottle of bleach mix in my truck.


Gloves are mass produced and easily tear. Chances are high that there might be a small perforation, etc where something got through the glove. They are a barrier (like a mask) but an imperfect one. Your skin is also a barrier. Safest is to get rid of an outer barrier and sanitize the next layer down. It is also why we try not to touch blood or body fluids if possible, even with a glove. It lowers the risk of something making it through the barrier. If you want to sanitize gloves, it is better to wear two pairs of gloves and remove the outer one, sanitize the inner layer. My RN uncle used to wear three pairs when he worked in the state prison. That way he always had at least one spare to throw away and he'd sterilize the next layer down, unless there was more exposure, then he'd get rid of two layers.
Bleach might be fine for heavy-duty non-porous material. In health care we need to do things such as start IVs so need thin gloves.


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## bsms

One of the things they emphasized when this started was not touching your nose or eyes with your hands until you first got home (or car) and cleaned them. That was when I first noticed how often I touch my eyes with my hands. Allergies and maybe just dryness? Fiddling with my glasses? I started forcing myself to just put up with any eye irritation until I could first wash my hands.

I don't mind a mask if I need to be around someone at close distance for more than a few seconds. But my neck gaiter / cloth mask is too little protection for a genuine threat environment, and useless in a non-threat environment. I base that on studies done before this became a political issue and on how a virus can be transmitted from A to B - because viruses don't have wings and don't bounce off the ground. 

Like helmets, I don't have a major objection but I'd like to see some evidence it works before making them mandatory by law. And like helmets, I think safety requires examining lots of things instead of giving humans a magic talisman that, by itself, is supposed to make all the difference. If I need to wear a mask in public, then why are the bars and restaurants and casinos open?


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## Hondo

Ok. Makes sense. I use 7 mil nitrile gloves. They can withstand a lot of abuse but not great for handling needle and thread etc or iv's I'm sure.


Just seems that any face covering including a shield would reduce transmission at least some and with the spikes going on I read about any reduction is a good thing. Even in grocery stores with one way isles there are often people going the wrong way where distancing is not possible.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Just seems that any face covering including a shield would reduce transmission at least some and with the spikes going on I read about any reduction is a good thing. Even in grocery stores with one way isles there are often people going the wrong way where distancing is not possible.


Here's a nice Lancet study on coronavirus risk reduction measures, including various types of face masks:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

...observational rather than random-controlled trials, but I'm a fan of the precautionary principle.

WA has no documented community transmission at all right now, but I'm still not hugging or touching people outside my household and still observing social distancing and extra hand hygiene, since there's (an at this point very low) risk of asymptomatic or "silent" transmission of SARS-CoV-2, and (an at this point slightly higher) risk of transmitting other diseases like seasonal influenza, rhinoviruses, garden variety coronaviruses etc - and because it's good practice to just keep doing it until the pandemic is over.

I'm not wearing a mask right now but I would totally wear one, plus pay huge attention to hand hygiene, if I had any respiratory symptoms (COVID-19 or not; it's just common courtesy) and couldn't stay home - that's one thing that this pandemic has taught me, that I'll do from this point forward. Brett's workplace has always required incoming patients with respiratory symptoms to be masked and to hand sanitise as they enter the building - and since the pandemic, people are triaged so that noone with respiratory symptoms enters the building; suspected COVID-19 was sent to the hospital for testing, the rest were seen in the car park, sitting in their cars, or via telehealth.

But, if what was happening in Victoria at the moment (75 new confirmed cases yesterday, and most of them community transmission) then I would absolutely wear a mask in certain public situations.

To clarify, this is where I have never worn a mask, and never would: In outdoors settings like hiking in the middle of nowhere, or in any other outdoor settings where I can effectively socially distance.

This is where I would wear a mask: In indoors environments where social distancing can be compromised or ventilation isn't great - like shopping centres, public transport, etc. Also in my own household, if a person with respiratory symptoms were present - as backup to having the sick person in their own bedroom and airing that bedroom to the outside regularly (not into the house, but into the garden), if I was near that person but probably not in the other parts of the house the sick person isn't using, as long as I aired it well. (Bathrooms wouldn't be shared as the designated "sick wing" has an ensuite).

If there was widespread community transmission, I'd also start wearing one in city streets etc if there was any question about being able to effectively socially distance. (In addition to meticulous hand hygiene, etc.)

If mask wearing in public spaces with other people usually present (but not anywhere outdoors!) became compulsory during community transmission, I'd support it, in part because stigmatisation of people with masks is less likely to happen when everyone has to wear one, and because irresponsible people with respiratory symptoms who don't feel like wearing masks, and asymptomatic people, would then be automatically covered (even though they may choose not to do it correctly, but if the mouth and nose aren't properly covered or the mask is slit, you can see that).


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## SueC

PS: Ah, @gottatrot already posted that link - that'll teach me to only read the page I'm on! :rofl:

I only read it this morning via _Crikey_. ;-)

By the way, what's a paper mask?


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## Hondo

The only paper masks that I've read about are constructed from HEPA 95% vacuum machine bags. Same filtering capabilities as NP95.


I've seen a couple of patterns on the net where two cut out pieces are put together with elastic ear bands that fit as well as an NP95.


I use a cloth mask with a pocket that I insert the HEPA 95% into. Sure to increase air around the edges but should stop small particles headed directly at me.


Headline about the Golden State Killer showed pictures of him and several officers and officials all without masks but wearing full face shields. Haven't read any tests for those but that might even be better than a mask. Who knows? I don't.


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## bsms

@SueC, here in Arizona, a bandana suffices as a mask. So literally does a piece of paper, provided it covers one's mouth and nose. My wife had some leftover masks she used to use doing home health care and wound care, good for keeping someone blood out of your mouth or nose but easy to breathe thru. Those are what I call paper masks. Higher quality than my neck gaiter, or a reusable mask I bought off eBay that I can almost spit thru it is so porous - but ANYTHING covering one's nose and mouth suffices for the rules here. I could punch small holes in my mask and still be legal!

As much as I dislike Pima County and would like to move just outside its borders...Pima County's rule specifies no fines or imprisonment can be imposed without further action by the County. The County Sheriff has said he will make no attempt to enforce it since it carries no penalties of any kind. So in reality, it is largely advisory.

Sierra Vista has made it mandatory and they have had almost no cases in the county. However - kids below 10 can ignore it and so can bars and restaurants, which make me wonder why. Buying alcohol prevents the spread?

FWIW, the school district is struggling. To comply with the state's guidance, they would have to limit classes to 8-10 students which is functionally impossible.

People quite reasonably want to be safe and not die, but I don't know how we get there short of a vaccine, and the vaccine against AIDS isn't making much progress after decades. Flattening the curve is like reducing peak pressures on a horses back - the same amount of pressure MUST take place, but spreading it out over a longer time reduces the peak. And only the peak. Delays may allow us to figure out better medicines or treatment plans, but I'm pessimistic about actually significantly reducing total deaths. 

Pima County is experiencing a lot more CASES, but those cases are largely the young without comorbidities, so our death rate is holding steady or slightly declining. This is one of those times I'm glad I'm NOT in charge! We may need more cases among the otherwise healthy to block off the routes of transmission to the high risk population, but that requires deaths too. This may be one of those humbling times when we find out we humans are not all powerful.

Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
“*To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late*.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his gods...

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/manvotional-horatius-at-the-bridge/​
That is fine as poetry, but not so fine when the ones dying are one's friends or family. The Titanic reminded the people of 1912 we are not as powerful as we like to claim. My pessimistic nature wonders if this won't do the same.


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## SueC

Before I say anything else, I'll just say I've not properly caught up with all the recent posts on this journal yet at the time of posting this next bit! I'm just responding to this post for now (and I've got to get something on our home kill last week written up at "my place" that everyone's input is also most welcome on ).




bsms said:


> @SueC, here in Arizona, a bandana suffices as a mask. So literally does a piece of paper, provided it covers one's mouth and nose. My wife had some leftover masks she used to use doing home health care and wound care, good for keeping someone blood out of your mouth or nose but easy to breathe thru. Those are what I call paper masks. Higher quality than my neck gaiter, or a reusable mask I bought off eBay that I can almost spit thru it is so porous - but ANYTHING covering one's nose and mouth suffices for the rules here. I could punch small holes in my mask and still be legal!


Just briefly, I can see why you're miffed about that jogging incident which I caught earlier - I would be too - and also about the apparent poor mask-wearing standards that your region is advocating, and also trying to enforce legally - there has to be a minimum standard of both material / fit and the manner of wearing it - say standard surgical mask or better. Of course that becomes a nightmare to enforce if people are using home-made masks and the culture isn't very educated, proactive etc. It seems to me from footage and reports I've seen that the culture is very much against you in the US, or at least in parts of the US, when it comes to the idea of wearing masks - whereas in a place like Taiwan, if you tell people there's a respiratory pandemic, the vast majority of them will wear either surgical masks or equivalent quality home-made masks in public situations with high numbers/density, and make sure they fit well, and observe handling protocols etc, without griping about it - and not see it as a cure-all, but a useful adjunct to a whole number of disease prevention protocols. In Taiwan, the public has prior experience with SARS etc, and also the culture is more community-orientated and educated about these things, and less "me me me my rights" and uninformed (and the two do seem to correlate).

And I completely agree that the protocols adopted should be scientifically sound, but I also think that during a pandemic with a new pathogen, it's wise to err on the side of caution and be guided by reviews like that link from the Lancet, and not wait for 100% definitive studies/controlled trials before acting. And also, not to expect 100% protection from any one thing, but to work in terms of reducing risk, and using a whole suite of approaches to do it. ...but obviously not if it's completely ludicrous, like compulsory mask-wearing on isolated hiking and cycling trails.




> Sierra Vista has made it mandatory and they have had almost no cases in the county. However - kids below 10 can ignore it and so can bars and restaurants, which make me wonder why. Buying alcohol prevents the spread?


Inconsistencies annoy me too - like, it was OK to congregate (socially distanced) in supermarkets, but not in outdoors spaces in a number of countries. If you can go shop, you can go picnic in the park, so long as distance protocol etc are all observed...

One thing I think is great about the Australian approach so far is that noone is suggesting that masks are an alternative to social distancing, or make you invulnerable - it's all about risk reduction, and adding layers of protection. Sort of like, high school students have to wear their safety glasses during laboratory practical work, even though it doesn't 100% eliminate the risk of eye injuries - sometimes things go through the gaps - but not very often.

Of course you do still get imbeciles in public who seem to think that wearing a mask means they don't have to do anything else anymore.



> FWIW, the school district is struggling. To comply with the state's guidance, they would have to limit classes to 8-10 students which is functionally impossible.


That's a difficult one, and what's happened in Western Australia is that students are now back at school, because to keep them home longer would increase the risk of them spreading the virus by generally going into the community in hours when normally they'd have been in school. They've modified the way things work a bit and so far it seems to be going OK, but then we don't have documented community transmission anymore...




> People quite reasonably want to be safe and not die, but I don't know how we get there short of a vaccine, and the vaccine against AIDS isn't making much progress after decades. Flattening the curve is like reducing peak pressures on a horses back - the same amount of pressure MUST take place, but spreading it out over a longer time reduces the peak. And only the peak. Delays may allow us to figure out better medicines or treatment plans, but I'm pessimistic about actually significantly reducing total deaths.


Yet what the data I've looked at have shown is that coutntries whose hospitals weren't overwhelmed with COVID-19 had lower death rates than places where the hospitals were overflowing. Obviously that wasn't corrected for all sorts of factors, but it's clearly a significant pattern.

Your pessimism, by the way, Brett (who's similarly inclined) would term realism. ;-) Me, I intellectually agree with both of you on a lot of things, but emotionally I often have a spark of hope when my husband doesn't. Man, was it good to see that statue getting dumped into Bristol harbour! :happydance: It's so nice when people won't lie down and take institutionalised BS anymore...


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## gottatrot

Good posts. Thanks for the discussion!

Now, these topics can cause emotional responses not to mention regardless of diseases and disaster, there are more important things such as enjoying life which could end next week if we fall and hit our head in the shower.

So, back to some regularly scheduled programming...

In the past few days some interesting things have been happening. Even though I'd love to live where my good horse friends are, a bit closer to family, there are no jobs or rentals available. 

Meanwhile, DH has expressed his desire to live somewhere several hrs from the big hub of activity in Portland. 

We found a rental in the town we like farther down the coast, looked at it and could move in two weeks. The house is private, on a lake that has only 5 houses and its own dock, view of water, forest and sand dunes from all windows. We have kayaks and could go for a paddle anytime.

The manager at the hospital is supposed to call today to let me know about an ICU job. 

So, it sounds promising. If it all works out I am hoping to hire someone to do horse care 5 days a week and hope to go to the barn myself 4 days since it is a 40 min drive.

I measured the horse paddock which is about 60x110 ft. The horses would be in there with a shelter. It is grass, dirt and weeds. 

I don't think that is too unreasonable if I get the horses into the big pasture 4 days a week for several hours plus formal exercise for Hero. Amore has been at barns with less turnout space and also stalled at night, and Hero has also been stalled. Although I would rather have them in a huge field, it is not so bad. Also there are setups 3x bigger I could move them to if any horses move out.

There are pros and cons. Not ideally I can only do about a 2 mile ride from the property. There is an arena and round pen. Since we decided to move, we will need to pay rent + mortgage until our house sells so I have had to keep my horse trailer savings for that.

However, if our house sells soon I will get my trailer right away and there are horse trails and beach very close. I may end up with a barn buddy who can trailer me out before then too.

The hay quality has gone down at my barn lately and I will be buying my own at the new barn, which I like. A feed store next door to the barn is handy too. 

If I can find someone to do chores, it will probably be just fine. My hope is that I will get into the horse community and find someone with a private barn closer to town eventually.


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## bsms

Good luck! Still struggling with options on moving myself. House prices in southern Arizona seems to be rising, so a good time to sell....but only if I'm buying into a cooler market.


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## Hondo

Quote: Acknowledging what people dislike about a public-health strategy enables a connection with them rather than alienating them further.


This article was so refreshing to me I really felt the need to post it. Don't be put off by the title.



https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...cket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits


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## SueC

@gottatrot and @bsms, I wish you both the very best of luck in finding your next homes. When you find the right things you will know. @gottatrot, is that the town with the nice bookshop you were talking about? The rental sounds like a nice interim place that could be fun to spend time at; likewise, you may find better horse facilities once you're already in the district, and once your accommodation and the horses' shakes out, you may have much less of a commute between the two (or maybe none ;-)). If that job comes through. Anyway, these things have a way of unfolding. It will be so interesting to go on this virtual ride with you.


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## gottatrot

Thanks, @SueC! Yes, this is the town with the nice book shop.

It's been somewhat hectic but I've managed to get some rides in here and there. 
A couple days ago I was realizing I had no concerns, after having decided to ride Hero in an empty field with a bareback pad and english hackamore.

Amore had decided not to follow us down into the field, but stayed up top of the hill so she could squeal at Pinky, the old mare in the next pasture. This did not bother Hero, who was in the mood to explore so we rode far away from Amore and explored without her.

Amore, funny girl was still hollering at Pinky after they were back in their pens and I left for the night. She pines for other horses randomly sometimes.
I have a new blue headstall that looks good on Hero. I'll have to get a pic sometime.

We had some anxiety when we were ready to sign paperwork for the lake house rental and out came a 13 page lease. When we saw they wanted the right to tell us to get rid of our pets at any time while still having to pay the remainder of the lease, we could not sign. The homeowner was not happy with us but it was a legal nightmare, making us responsible for injuries to delivery drivers on the property.

There are almost no rentals in the area, so it was frustrating. Happily, I happened to spot a rental only a few minutes after it was posted, and it is a nicer house on the river. We were able to look at it and secure it, and this homeowner loves cats and dogs, and only has a small pet deposit, no lease at all. Whew.

The other good news is that I've found a lady who will feed the horses and clean pens for me 5 days a week, so if she is reliable it will give me more fun time with the horses. We move in several weeks!


I


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## Knave

That sounds excellent!!


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## phantomhorse13

Holy moly to the things they expected you to sign for in that other lease!! So glad you dodged that bullet as it sounds like the other place is much better. I hope you will share pics with us once you are moved and settled.


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## SueC

Good luck with the move!  The actual process is never pleasant. It will be interesting to hear how everything goes for you - and to see photos of course...


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## gottatrot

We are in the throes of packing and moving so I haven't been able to visit the forum much.

Unfortunately my truck broke down on the side of the highway when I was on my way in to my last night of work! I did make it in a couple hours late but I couldn't believe I was going out that way after ten years there.

We still are not sure what is going on with the truck. We had to tow it three times. The first dealership said they didn't work on Chevys. Next a mechanic barely looked at it but his first inclination was an engine top rebuild for $3,000 but his second guess was total rebuild for $7,000+. But he couldn't explain his reasoning to me so I said if it is going to cost that much I need a second opinion. Now it sits waiting for the next mechanic to have time for a diagnosis.

We get our rental house on the 5th but my new job has a full schedule lined up for me next week, so we won't be able to move our stuff until the 8th. 

The good news is that today the owner of the new boarding facility called and said another boarder is unexpectedly moving out and offered me his field. This is about 2.5 times bigger than the previous one, a real pasture. Instead of a single shelter it has two divided stalls, so the horses won't be able to run each other off their food as easily.

The new setup also has a bigger hay storage and tack area. Plus the barn owner has agreed to feed for me the two days not covered by my other worker, so I'll have cleaning covered 5 days and feeding all 7. This means the horses can be fed in the morning every day.

Things are working out, so this is good.


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## gottatrot

Well, it was a big move but we are mostly settled now. 

A big milestone for me was regarding trailering the horses last Saturday. Since my truck is still in the shop, we borrowed my friend's big diesel dually and 3 horse trailer. 

It turned out DH was uncomfortable about me driving his mustang sports car for 5 hrs...sensitive steering and brakes. I am great at stick shift, but well, the trust wasn't there.
It was time for me to grow up and drive horses for the first time.

If you haven't been down the 101, it has steep hills, cliffs, narrow spots, bridges and lots of sharp curves. I had never driven anything larger than my pickup. 

In the end, it went very well. Whenever we stopped to check on the horses, they were eating. The craziest part was that it happened to be the hottest day of the year, around 90 degrees. 
Thankfully, my friend's trailer has very big drop down windows and the horses did not even seem to sweat.

Once I was comfortable staying in my lane, I was glad to be able to go as slow and smooth as I wanted, especially since the traffic was also crazy since it was even hotter inland and everyone had fled the cities to go to the beach.

The horses have been very calm at the new stable. They stay out in a large field which is rather weedy, so they are getting free choice hay. They are next to a gelding that is over 30, so when Hero went to the fenceline to paw, arch his neck and instigate something, the old guy just watched him, completely unimpressed.

They can also go into various fields with more grass while I clean up poo and set up feed, which they enjoy. There are lots if deer, wild turkeys and peacocks around.


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## egrogan

Congrats @gottatrot- that sounds like quite an adventure. Glad that the move for the horses went smoothly. Are you feeling settled in to your new place? I imagine it's sort of hard to "explore" your new area with Covid limitations.


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## Knave

I am seriously proud of you. I have my driving issues, so maybe it seems bigger to me, but even before I developed them I hated driving the trailer in many places. So, congratulations, I am proud!


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## gottatrot

Thank you @ knave!

I have not had a ride yet after the move because we've been driving the 5 hrs up to get our house ready to sell. But this week I should get some time in.

Yesterday at the barn two ladies were heading off on their horses and they told me about a loop that goes for several miles that I am hoping to check out.

The horses are doing great. Amore's allergies seem better here and it is a little drier, which means their hooves are doing better already. 

Hero is the calmest I have ever seen him. Now I am feeling bad because I am guessing it may be because there is no deep sand in the field at all, and there was deep stuff around his shed at the last place, where he ate and loafed. It may have been keeping a level of soreness going.

I do the cleaning here, and am not sure how much to do. I am keeping the half acre clear near the loafing shed and water, but for the rest of the acre I don't know how it will do...build up or decompose?


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## Hondo

It'll decompose but faster if it's scattered on pass by with a shovel, fork, or a traditional poop kick'n boot, which is my favorite. Don't always have a fork or shovel but I always have my boots on.


Scattering is better for the grass also.


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## egrogan

Sounds like you have a lot going on @gottatrot, so it must be a relief to see the horses happy and settling in so well. Best of luck with the house- around here, houses are selling fast, sometimes sight unseen, so it seems to be a pretty good market. I hope that is the case in your area too!


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## Knave

I don’t know that country. Here they would take an acre down to nothing quickly, so it becomes a dry lot anyways. Because of that combined with the few storms that make things wet and the snow/slush of springtime melt, we only clean the corral occasionally. We drag all of the poop up into a big pile, and it gives them a place to play and hang out above the mud because it dries up quicker.


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## bsms

For @egrogan :

The great COVID exodus: Americans are fleeing the nation's great cities in droves and moving to rural Vermont, Idaho and Oregon due to a fear of living in dense urban centers during the pandemic








​Here in Arizona, properties are being snatched up by folks who obviously don't know the local market. People are buying cheap property in VERY small town Arizona...and I doubt anyone who likes NYC will find "Elfrida AZ" to their tastes!


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## egrogan

Thanks for the article @*bsms* . It's definitely anecdotally the case here that more people than usual are coming from NYC, CT, NJ, and Boston, but it's interesting to see it in print. We have friends who are realtors, and they've sold as many houses so far this calendar year as they usually do in a full 12 month period. They sold a $750K house to a couple that only saw it via Facetime as our friends walked around the house with their video rolling, saying "here's the kitchen, here's the bathroom, etc." So crazy to me. I think it's going to be a rude awakening for some people who think they're going to be able to work from home to get here and realize there's no consistent cell or internet service. I've worked from home since we've lived here and I'm never really sure if the internet will work on any given day. When I have important Zoom calls I drive 25 minutes to the "big town" and sit in my car to make sure the video will stay connected :icon_rolleyes: Still, we recognize the real benefits of having all that $$ - if not necessarily the people attached to it - come into the area. So many businesses and services we love can really only exist with the second home/NYC money. So we suck it up and deal with the entitlement that comes with it. Fortunately we haven't experienced some of the horror stories I hear about other places, where people from the city come to a rural place and then complain about horse poop on the road or things like that. Hopefully we won't reach a tipping point if more and more people end up here.

At any rate, hope the booming market helps @*gottatrot* sell her house quickly!


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## gottatrot

Thanks, that is interesting about the housing market. I know Portland is having people buy houses for high prices right now 
and we've heard that where our old house is things are selling well too. 

It sounds like the things we consider terrible about the area such as all the businesses that have been coming in and the apartment complexes going up, makes it actually more attractive to those moving from big cities.

Our new town does not have a home depot or walmart or costco closer than an hour drive. There are no big employers other than a fairly small casino on the reservation outside of town. Where we moved from there were all those stores and more coming in every day. 

It's 1 pm and in our neighborhood it is dead quiet. Once in a while I hear a single car or a boat going by on the river. The seagulls are the loudest thing we hear other than the wind.
So we will be happy to drive an hour if we need to buy anything we can't find in town.

Thanks for the advice on the manure. Hero makes piles but Amore is her own manure spreader. She rarely is stationary when she poops, and has pony sized pellets. My friend used to call her the salad shooter. 

There was a certain amount of manure left in the field from the previous boarder. He had three horses on the field and I don' t think he picked it up at all. But it has been very dry so it is mostly shriveled up and doesn't seem to be attracting flies. I've been whittling away at it but mostly removing the fresh stuff. I think when it starts raining more the old stuff will break down quickly.

My truck is supposed to be done this week. Top engine rebuild due to bent rods. Low miles and used lightly, the mechanic said it is rare. Something goes wrong with the timing and it interferes. But it should be a good truck again once fixed. They had parts made for it from a machine shop so it takes a long time. We have done ok with one vehicle but we want to get out kayaking and go up gravel roads in our new area that the mustang can't handle.

A problem is that I had my horse trailer picked out before we decided to move. As soon as our house sells I can buy one. But I had decided on a straight load...yet the the horses rode so great for 5 hours in my friend's slant I am beginning to question that choice. 

It was a 3 horse sundowner with a steel floor. The horses loaded in less than a minute and came out the other end looking like they'd been napping.


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## gottatrot

I need to take some pictures of the horses at their new place!

We are getting into a routine now. I go to the barn every 2-3 days. I bring the horses out of their home field (about 1 acre), down a gravel road, about two 
blocks and turn them out.

There are six turnout fields. The horses stay in the upper fields because those have shelters and hay storage. Except one horse, Smoky the appaloosa stays down all summer because he has heaves and it gives him a break from hay.

Sometimes there are a pair of horses out. Their owner will put them down for the day. Usually the fields are empty except for Smoky, so I put mine next to him. They like to talk over the fence. Hero has had no issues with biting or kicking at other horses here. They all seem mellow and don't pick fights. 

The only real reason to turn out here is to let horses graze. The lower fields have green grass, but the upper fields are overgrazed and weedy. Everyone feeds hay and all the horses are fat. Mine enjoy the grass but are blase about it too, usually preferring to socialize more than graze. Apparently with the green orchard hay I am feeding they don't feel a psychological lack.

While the horses are down I clean the field and set up hay. So far it hasn't seemed like manure is piled up, even if I am gone a couple days, and there are very few flies. The barn owner puts out the hay nets I set up each day for me, and gives the horses their vitamins.

I have ridden Hero twice. 
The first time I went around the outdoor arena. He was very mellow, no spooking or bucking, picked up the trot and canter. I only did 15 minutes since he'd been off so long.

Yesterday DH led Amore and I rode Hero down the road about a half mile. There are two other farms with horses so it's mostly travelling through a corridor of horses in fences. One horse got excited and ran and then I was able to trot Hero down the road a bit. Other than that he was super relaxed. It was about 75 degrees, so it wasn't real workout weather.

It sure felt great to ride. I hope to get out sometime soon with other people at the barn.


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## Knave

I am glad you got to ride too! It sounds like Hero was nice.


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## egrogan

Are you safe from all these awful fires, @gottatrot?


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## gottatrot

It's very strange because it is all smoky and hazy here at the coast. In all my life I can't remember seeing smoke like this. We have seen it on trips inland, but never at the coast.

But we are quite some distance from any fires, and the air quality is fine if you don't have asthma. I do expect to have some respiratory patients when I go in to work tonight. 

I am very relieved we did not move to central oregon, because I can't imagine having the horses out breathing heavy smoke. How terrible and there are lots of horses over there.

We have noticed the birds are not flying around here yesterday or today. It was funny though, they put out a notice for people to stop calling 911 for fires that are 200 miles away.


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## egrogan

Glad to hear you are far from the fires! I've seen some pretty frightening pictures posted on FB by other horse people throughout the day. Surreal skies.


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## Knave

It is smoky here too. Today isn’t bad because the wind took away a lot of it, but some days you can look straight at a dark red sun. I can’t remember it like this before either. We all tell ourselves it couldn’t possibly be new, but I almost feel like I’d remember a red sun, and until a couple years ago I don’t. We had awful fires when I was in high school too. I remember riding ranges in deep ash counting dead cows we couldn’t get out, and the dead deer and even a horse caught in the fence dead. I don’t remember the sun being red then. I remember so much about it, but I really think the red sun is new.


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## tinyliny

the smoke here in Seattle is evident, but not anything like what is happening south of us. 



Hang in there! Autumn is just around the corner.


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## bsms

Smoky in Arizona too. Upper level winds - the jet stream - always blow from CA to AZ. 

Glad you are getting moved. Going to pick up a U-Haul later today to move the bulky stuff to our rental home in Benson. Done nothing but work on the move for the last week. Barely see the horses. But I think it will set us up for finding a better place for us to live a year from now. It certainly is getting the Wife & I to examine what sort of life we want for the next 10-20 years.


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## gottatrot

Wow, the smoke really travels amazing distances. 

Good to hear about the move, @bsms. It is painful but we have found it rewarding so far after recovering some from the exhaustion.


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## waresbear

2017 and 2018, we had that kind of smoke here. 2017 was the worst by far every town around us was evacuated. 2018 was not as bad but the smoke was terrible, but fortunately we were not evacuated. 2017, we were not living here, my son was taking care of our place as we were in Vancouver. He kept all the doors and windows shut, our horses were evacuated to a different location but a lot of the neighbors had farm animals that they couldn't relocate, most were older people so they had to leave. He took care of everybody's chickens, cows, pigs, geese, doves and peacocks. He was the only person staying within miles. The food supply truck that brought provisions to the various evacuation centers, would meet him at the bottom of the road and give him food daily. He said the only time he felt in danger, as he was getting update texts from the fire crews, was when it jumped the highway. If they hadn't got it out immediately, it would have travelled over the ridge easily. Our place would have been burned because it is thick forest right to our property. Other than that, he said he was crazy busy taking care of all these animals at various houses along the road. He even had to slaughter some roosters, pluck them and freeze them. The neighbor facetimed him to show him what to do. Many people we know lost their houses, and a lot of burned livestock, very sad.


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## gottatrot

That guy was a hero to do all that animal care during the fires.

Fires are terrible. They seem to have pushed some people over the edge of what they can handle psychologically after the stress of covid around here. I hope somehow there can be more focus on mental health resources. Even healthy people can find times like these stressful.


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## gottatrot

I'll revise my statement that fires are terrible. They are hard on people nearby. We heard about a family where the little boy was found in the car where he'd tried to drive his grandma and dog to safety but they didn't make it.

But we saw a documentary that showed the global processes of the earth and it showed how there are fires burning at every moment around the world, and explained how they are necessary to get certain nutrients into the soil.

It was a great show, I think it was called Earth From Space. Lightning is also necessary. There was some link from sandstorms in the sahara desert to the plankton in the deep oceans. Even what we think of as disasters are often part of the bigger functions of the earth and sometimes keep the ecosystems healthy.


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## egrogan

When I was in college, I took an ecology class that focused on the pine barrens in New Jersey, and that was the first time I had ever heard that fire was a good, necessary thing for regenerating soil and allowing certain species to grow. When you combine needed fires with longer periods of more intense heat and drought, less available water and decreasing mountain snowpacks, and humans who have interfered in all these natural systems by insisting on building in the middle of all of it and suppressing natural fires, it is a literal tinderbox that has to explode somehow. I would be terrified to live in California today.


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## bsms

The natural fires don't tend to be the intense superfires we humans cause. If you suppress fires for a long time or maintain an artificial state of growth, then you create excess fuel making the fires far more intense. In the 70s/80s, controlled burns were done. It was getting difficult to do them because sometimes a controlled fire wouldn't stay controlled. That created a field day for lawyers.

2019:



> According to the US Forest Service’s latest aerial survey of federal, state, and private land in California, 18 million trees throughout the state died in 2018, bringing the state’s total number of dead trees to more than 147 million. The concern is these trees could be matchsticks for another conflagration, or that the decaying timber could maim a hiker, a ranger, or a firefighter.
> 
> The 2018 results actually represent a decrease in tree deaths compared to 2017 and 2016. But they’re still far above what’s considered typical. “Normal background levels of tree mortality for California, what we would typically see through both insects and diseases, is well less than a million trees per year,” said Sheri Smith, a regional entomologist at the US Forest Service.
> 
> So why are so many Ponderosa pines, Douglas firs, and quaking aspen in California’s forests dying? *There’s no single reason — but the combination of years of drought, extreme heat, and bark beetle infestations are causing trees to splinter and wither.* - California has 149 million dead trees ready to ignite like a matchbook


2020:


> The Creek fire, which forced the dramatic helicopter evacuations of more than 200 campers over Labor Day weekend in California, may be a hint of far worse to come in future years.
> 
> It is burning in the Sierra National Forest, *an epicenter of the bark beetle attacks that killed nearly 150 million drought-stressed trees during the last decade.*
> 
> The U.S. Forest Service estimates that dead stands in the Creek fire contain 2,000 tons of fuel per acre.
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2020-09-13/150-million-dead-trees-wildfires-sierra-nevada


What Bark Beetles do:




















> The main insect in the attack from the late 199os to today, the mountain pine beetle, has significantly dwindled, but new insect pests have radically increased their attacks on other types of trees. The scale of these new attacks, like the last attack, appears to be like nothing we have seen before.
> 
> A single species of native beetle had attacked 20 times more forest than ever recorded, with a kill that ranged from 60 to nearly 100 percent. It began in the late 1990s and was widespread from New Mexico to British Columbia.
> 
> The attack of the mountain pine beetle has ebbed to 1.6 million acres of new kill in 2014. This is down from a peak of 11 million in 2009, but still bigger than Delaware. Forest professionals said this would happen when the beetle had eaten through its favorite food, the lodgepole pine. These lodgepole forests make up about 20 percent of Western North American forest and the beetle has basically killed as much as 75 percent of all those trees. At a likely conservative 100 trees per acre, this is seven billion trees.
> 
> https://climatediscovery.org/pine-beetle-report-6000-mile-road-trip-in-the-rockies/


In a sense this IS normal. Vast forests have died out or been burnt before. Left alone, in a hundred years or so things will recover. Or not. Climate change is change, and change has always happened, and places that were once swamps are now deserts, or vice-versa. New York state was once under 2 miles of ice. The Mediterranean Sea has sometimes been dry. Disease killed off 75% of the Elm trees in the US.


> American chestnut trees once blanketed the east coast, with an estimated 4 billion trees spreading in dense canopies from Maine to Mississippi and Florida. These huge and ancient trees, up to 100 feet tall and 9 feet around, were awe-inspiring, the redwoods of the east coast, but with an extra perk — the nuts were edible....Finding a mature American chestnut in the wild is so rare today that discoveries are reported in the national press. The trees are “technically extinct,” according to The American Chestnut Foundation.
> 
> https://timeline.com/american-chestnut-trees-disappeared-39217da38c59


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## gottatrot

Interesting. I tend to think it is natural too. One species has a heyday, probably because of available food that has grown abundantly. Then they wipe out another species, causing fires that change the landscape.

Because there is a large population of humans these things affect us more. But perhaps we need our habitat reduced and some population control as well.

Everything has an effect on everything else. Those in cities who think everyone should take public transportation don't think of all the animals and habitat that was destroyed to make that city with its "eco friendly" option.

I don't see how we can take a snapshot and think we must maintain everything the way it is at the moment. The earth has obviously gone through vast changes caused by natural disasters and disease. 

The way I see it, people want to sustain the earth and also keep all the humans alive, disease free and unaffected by disasters. 

That seems impossible to me. If we keep getting more humans, we will use too much water and food and have drought and famine. This will cause people to die off. Trying to make a world that will sustain more people seems less smart to me than having less people. We can't manage that, but it seems likely to happen anyway through poor diet, lack of exercise, shorter lifespans, diseases that spread easily, violence and disasters. 

I guess I see personal tragedy as part of being in the world, and I think taking each day as a gift is the best we can do. Big picture, less humans are better. Small picture, disasters and disease hurt us.


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## gottatrot

Spent a couple days up north working on our house. Got the windows washed and the yard somewhat decent. I hope to never have so much landscaping again.

Something I discovered after buying the house is that I enjoy doing some bush trimming and flower planting but being a slave to the yard was not enjoyable. This yard was a monster with too many things trying to take over the world. 

It seemed like every single plant either died or grew uncontrollably. The flax plant went from 2 ft to 12 ft tall and took over the sidewalk. The ivy wanted to eat the house and all the trees, and the rhododendrons along with all the other shrubs try to escape the alotted spaces constantly.

Probably the worst are the montbrecia, which are lovely until they all fall over and they double their mass each year. I pulled and carried two wheelbarrows full that had suddenly finished for the season.

I got some pictures of the horses at the new place, will post them soon. 
Hero was lunged today but he is out of shape and ten minutes had him sweaty. The air is clear now but he coughed a couple times.

These horses are easy keepers. Both are plenty fat and I may need to cut back hay. Since they have basically a few weeds on their field, I thought they may need 35 lbs of hay between them. I estimate Hero is about 1,000 lbs and Amore 750. 
But I have been weighing out 30 lbs and they seem to have gained a few lbs. 
So obviously they need less than that. Plus more exercise for Hero now that things are getting more settled!


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## gottatrot

Got Hero out for a solo ride without Amore last eve.

As planned, we left Amore pastured next to Smoky and she felt safe grazing and didn't even look up when I led Hero out.

Hero did not show signs of separation anxiety when I led him to the road. Once we closed the big gate behind us, he raised his head and seemed a bit more tense, but nothing serious so I got on.

I didn't realize he'd never seem cows up close before. They were in the field just across the road from where I mounted up, and after we walked onto the road, we were stuck there while Hero stared at the cows.

A horse in the field next to the cows came moseying over, and I thought it would reassure Hero to see the other horse was not worried about the cows. But the cow waddled (these were seriously fat cows) slowly toward the horse and Hero's eyes about popped out and his heart thundered against my legs. Apparently he thought the cow was going to eat the horse.

In his defense, the cow looked like it might have swallowed a horse earlier.
Hero turned and ran back to the gate, and I convinced him to go back up to the road but he wouldn't turn his back on the cows so I eventually got off and led him.

I walked him about 3/4 mile down the road, through the woods and along the slough and horse pastures. It was peaceful and he seemed calm. Not wanting to start out with too much, I turned back. I planned to ride toward home, so got on.

It was more scary for Hero when I was on his back, so he walked slow and looked at everything. He also got stuck a couple times and I had to wait it out.
It's easy to say hop off and on when you're riding horses 15 hands or less. I think twice about getting off Hero because it's not so easy getting back on.

For some reason I was thinking about @egrogan's friend M and thinking she also probably doesn't love hopping off and on Coalie.

We went pretty well until we got close to the cows, where I got off to make sure it ended on a good note. We went over to look at the mule up close and Hero thought she seemed like a suspicious character also. 

When we got close to Amore, Hero took a couple hops in relief, but that was the extent of any wild behavious so I was quite pleased. Especially because the weather was cooler and an invitation for horses to feel fresher.

I'll try to attach some pics of the horses in the turnout field with Smoky and their main field and shed.


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## gottatrot

More pics


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## bsms

My horses would KNOW they had died and gone to heaven....


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## egrogan

Hahaha, @*gottatrot* ! M says she doesn't mind the off and on much, and it is definitely faster for her to get off Coalie and lead him on when he's "having a moment" rather than try to bump and cajole him along. She's done a nice job of training him with a verbal "STAND" command, and he will stand stock still anywhere for her to mount. He's typical Morgan size, a little under 15 hands, but I'm always impressed that she mounts easily from the ground. We're both on the shorter size, probably around 5'2", but she's built like a gymnast where I'm built like a softball player :rofl: No mounting from the ground for me!

There is a farm with huge oxen across the street from her, so Coalie is really used to being around cow-type creatures and really, really wants to be friends with them. We had our own encounter with some not-so-nice cows yesterday and even he found them a little freaky! We got off and walked by them until they were out of sight.


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## gottatrot

It's all perspective I guess, @bsms. My horses are thinking the grass is a little less green here compared to up north. Ha ha.
@egrogan, I thought Coalie was so much bigger than that!


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## egrogan

No, M is just really tiny!


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## bsms

Show your horses this photo and tell them if they don't behave....


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## gottatrot

Ha ha ha!


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## gottatrot

I heard my horse friend Booker passed away this week. He seemed to have a heart attack. He was a great little horse, and was still jumping this summer and doing beach rides even though he was well over 30. I saw him a month ago and he looked great, so it was a good way to go after a long and productive life. He taught me what it is like when a horse actually grabs the bit in his teeth and runs. A heart pounding experience that he thought was very funny. Best jumping form I have ridden, compact and smooth.


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## Knave

It is beautiful!


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## SueC

That's a lovely spot your horses have landed in, @gottatrot! Hero looks fabulous. I know you say he's lost fitness, but I'm just comparing him to how he was when you first started working with him, and he just looks so super now. And your mare looks great too, how old is she now?

How's the new house? I've forgotten if you're renting or you've bought something (maybe I need to re-read)...any photos?


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## Hondo

So why is Hero wearing Renegades on turnout?


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## bsms

^^ My guess is that they are the favored footwear of cool equines.....

Besides, you might need your "SuperFeet" if carnivorous zombie elk suddenly emerge from the treeline. Better to have boots you don't need than to need boots you don't have!


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## Hondo

hrupmph! So Hero plans to outrun poor Amore and leaver her to fend for herself? That's not what Hero's are 'supposed' to do.


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## gottatrot

Haha. The renegades are because I was going to ride after the turnout time. All the gear is up the hill at the shed. I put the boots on him, then when I came back down to ride I drove my saddle halfway down the hill so I had less to carry. I can put my helmet on my head. So then I just had saddle, pad, girth and bridle to carry. It still is a couple blocks from where I could park my truck out to the turnout field. Of course I could have brought him back up the hill but this meant less trips.
@SueC, thanks for saying Hero is looking good. Yes we are renting a cute little house on a river while we wait for our other house to sell.


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## Hondo

Glad to hear he was not getting set up to out run Amore. Only a rascal would do that.


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## gottatrot

Ha ha I bet Amore would be the one to get away.

We get to pick up my truck tomorrow, it finally is finished with a brand new engine. I have been missing it a lot.

We have a vet appointment for our cat next week. I am worried about her because she has been losing weight rapidly. She is 12 and her symptoms sound like hyperthyroidism which I am hoping is the case. She has been hyperactive, hungry and scratching her hair off the back of her ears. I hope it isn't cancer, hyperthyroidism should be treatable.


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## phantomhorse13

Is she a lot more vocal? Add that, and all the things you describe are exactly how my cat was acting and it was indeed his thyroid. Hope you get an easy answer!


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## gottatrot

@PhantomHorse, that is good to hear. Yes, she is meowing a lot and also a bit more aggro. My dog has always jumped on her when I am getting their food ready (they are the same size) but I have had to peel her out of a bear hug with teeth on his jugular a couple times recently. For all these years she has always just stood and let him mess around, very tolerant.
My dog is also 12, doesn't hear well and cateracts so he doesn't seem to realize she has been trying to kill him!


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## gottatrot

First good news, I have my truck back with the new engine and it runs great. The company that sell remanufactured engines is called Jasper and supposedly it should be even better than before. I am glad I don't have to find a new truck since my old one is in good condition, heavy duty and powerful. 

The mechanics showed us the badly bent rods.
A loss of oil pressure (probably the oil pump went out) caused heat that fused the camshaft bearing to the block. The engine only had to run for a few seconds after that to destroy itself. Sad at 70,000 miles but apparently this has happened to trucks with 10,000 miles too.

My cat Velvet was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism. A lump on her belly was biopsied and is just a lipoma, so good news, a pill should fix her up soon. We are very relieved.


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## Knave

I’m glad about the truck and the cat. I lost my old cat this last year, but she was so ancient that it seemed like she had been blessed with a good life and I had been blessed to have been a part of it.


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## waresbear

Good news about Velvet!


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## gottatrot

Sorry about your cat, @Knave, but it sounds like she had a good long life.


Ugh, made a mistake today. It is always bad to lose patience...after the horses had their turnout time, I decided to ride Hero in the outdoor arena.
He was acting reluctant to trot, and after picking it up a couple of times he would not do it again. My feeling was that he was out of shape and not wanting to strain himself. So I hopped off and began running with him, leading him at the trot. I noticed he was looking around a lot, but I made him keep going. Then I wasn't careful and let him get behind me a little...a truck came down the road and he spooked, which consisted of running over the top of me.


I've been run over by horses several times, unfortunately. If you're lucky, you weren't straight on with their chest and they just spin you to one side and you fall. This time I was directly in front of him so when he knocked me down I had some kind of twirling around inside of his legs encounter and in the end he stepped on my right leg above the knee, left calf and also my left chest in the front. 


I was yelling at him as I was twirling around, I remember that. But then I got up really mad and whacked him good several times and made him back up a loooong ways. He always looks at me when I do that like I've got the devil inside and he better be careful. But then I started running him around again and he acted like he was going to spook into me again, so I let him have it one more time. Well, that wasn't good to lose my temper. But it happens sometimes.


I got back on and when I asked him to trot he started spinning and hopping, and I think it was just a reaction to everything that had already happened. So I calmed down, calmed him down and made him trot nice a couple of times and then quit. We were friends by the time I turned him back out.


Everything seemed like just bruises, but at work my left chest really began hurting and my coworkers convinced me I should just walk down the hall to the ED to make sure I didn't have a bad bruise on my lung or heart. So I did get an xray, and everything was fine. Of course then I feel silly for being a patient, but I think it was a good idea.


Something I know, is that I need to stop treating Hero like he is an Arab. He does not get calmed by movement, and he does not feel better if he rushes by things when he is nervous. It is almost the opposite; if he is rushed, his brain shuts off and he has these big reactions. What he really needs to do is stop and stand and stare at things until he decides it is OK. That is something I don't appreciate, because first, I have a long history with horses that would blow up if they stopped and thought. Plus I have a hard time waiting, and want to just keep riding and get on with things. It is not fun for me to stop and stare at some elk or cows for three or four minutes, and I think ten seconds is long enough and then we should go. But that always makes Hero nervous, because he hasn't decided it is safe yet.


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## egrogan

Ouch @*gottatrot* . Glad you allowed yourself to get checked out to confirm you're (mostly) ok. I got run over by Izzy last week in a silly accident- I was leading the horses across the street from their new turnout field back "home" to their regular field. I usually finagle leading all three together, but lovely husband was around and offered to take one for me, so he was walking with Maggie ahead of us, with Izzy on my left and Fizz on my right. For some reason, he picked up a branch laying on the ground and tossed it off to his left into the woods. Where it made a rustling sound when it hit the leaves, which Izzy interpreted as something about to attack. Before I even processed what was happening, she had leapt into my side and knocked me flat out on my hands and knees. I think all 5 of us were so surprised everyone just froze. Fortunately I was just a little dusty and no one stepped on me, but I still scraped up my knees.  Anyway, I am sympathetic to the "surprise hit!"

I understand how you're feeling about stopping and investigating. My friend M takes a "no stopping, no looking" approach with Coalie, and that works for him because otherwise he'd stand there and stare at something for a minute before deciding he needs to buck and kick. I tend to find Fizz does better with some time to stop and consider, unless she starts trying to go backwards, and then I'll need to get her going forward again or things devolve. A year ago she would often get "stuck" with her feet planted and refusing to move, but she hasn't done that in awhile. All in all, I think some wait time is ok for her but clearly every horse responds differently. 

Finally, I appreciate you sharing about how your frustration limit was reached. I get that. Sometimes I lose my temper with Fizz too and I don't feel great about it but she has just frustrated me soooooooo much I can't help it. I need more zen in my life I think...


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## Knave

I am sorry that happened!! I got ran over by Cash that time, and to be honest it was the only time in my life I’ve been ran over. He pulled away and so I didn’t get any chance to discipline him, and I was kind of dingy anyways. 

I think, although the frustration I’m sure was excessive albeit justified, that the reaction was right! I am not one to beat on a horse, but certain things are life threatening and I believe they ought to be afraid to do them. I have even had such extreme reactions when I wasn’t scared and mad. One time Zeus decided to try his hand at striking. I blew up over it. He did it three times (it’s required of him for every action for some reason) over two days, and he hasn’t done it again to me, although I saw him kind of touch little girl with a hoof one day, and she didn’t correct him because she couldn’t in her position.

Those life threatening actions are a big deal! I’m so sorry you even faced it. I’m glad you got checked out. 

All of my horses besides Zeus are comforted by movement as well. I try to get them over their fears and be slow myself, but it they had the choice they would move on. Zeus might be like Hero in his desire to investigate...


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## gottatrot

Thanks for the good insights, @egrogan and @Knave.
@Knave, do you have any tips for when Zeus gets stuck, or do you just let him think it through?


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## tinyliny

What a scary experience! You could have been seriously hurt.
You are one tough cookie!


Don't fret about losing your cool. Is there ANYONE who doesn't? Wouldn't in that situation? I rather doubt it. If there is, they are already sainted!


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## Knave

With Zeus my friend taught me a trick that works with mules. It seems awful horsemanship, but the rules are different with that type of animal I guess, and they claim a fjord has a similar brain. I count to ten, and then I ask again. It seems stupid I know in all the ways, but often it works. It gives him a second to work it out I guess.


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## bsms

I've blown my cool many times. Happily, my horses seem to judge me by my intent and not by my actions of any one moment in time.


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## gottatrot

Yes, thankfully horses seem to respond to us by how we are most of the the time. Also they understand fairness and expect that if they mess up another horse might kick the crap out of them. So in this way I guess if we lose our temper it lines up with what horses expect. 

Where it is not good is if our reactions are out of control and become too extreme, and I have heard and seen this with others which makes me regret losing a controlled approach. 

For example I have seen a horse backed into a pile of metal and cut up. I have seen horses hit with metal that could cause permanent injury. I have seen a horse pushed into a ditch that ended up lame. 

No matter what a horse does, I believe we have the responsibility to treat them rationally and not cause them to suffer for revenge, as if they thought through all the consequences of their actions and decided to act against us.

I have also seen horses become nervous wrecks when their handlers lose their temper regularly and unfairly. For example the horse is just walking along, turns his head and the handler starts yelling and yanking on the lead. The horse does not understand why he is being punished and begins to startle when the handler moves suddenly, expecting to be yanked on. 

But I think if a horse bites or runs over you, he expects that you will whack him just like another horse would.

I am going to try the ten second ask with Hero. That makes sense. I don't think he is a slow thinker or dumb, and mules are not either. But maybe they are slow deciders. If the decision is easy, Hero responds quickly like another horse. But if he is unsure the brakes come on and if I ask more it just seems to add to his list of decisions to make and slows him down more. 

Come to think of it, my DH is kind of like this too, lol.


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## knightrider

@gottatrot, what a miserable accident. Hope you are feeling better now. 

I really enjoyed reading this discussion. I think we've all lost our patience at times and then regretted it. I know I have. 

Most of the horses I have owned have been stop and look horses. I quickly discovered that Isabeau is like your mares, gotta. The longer I let her look, the more worked up she got. Until she'd blow up and start rearing. I discovered if I bonked her and said, "Go on," she'd go on. Most of the horses I owned would just look and look. Finally, when they'd dip their heads, I'd know they were ready to move on.

When Chorro was a youngster just learning to be ridden, he wanted to stop and look every 15 seconds, which just about drove me crazy. I never had a horse like that. But he's 16 now, and those days are long gone.


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## gottatrot

All of this makes me think it could be helpful to consider how different horses think vs react.

What you don't want is a horse to react without thinking. Horses that are just reacting can be explosive and dangerous. 

For Amore, getting her brain working is related to her body moving. Maybe she interprets sights and smells better while in motion. 

This has been the case with many of the reactive type horses I've been around. If they stood still they grew more tense and then did something like a huge spook, spin or buck. 

This other type seems to need to observe, smell and listen from a standstill in order to think. Movement seems to make them more likely to panic. 

Maybe some horses think we're running so we'll be safe, and other horses think we're running so we've decided it's not safe.


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## tinyliny

I was thinking on this, and remembered an incident that happened to me like almost 20 years ago. I was riding in the park ( wooded trails), when my leased gelding suddenly farted so loud it scared himn. He bucke, and then took off at a wild gallop down the trail. 



I could not stop him, and I distinctly remember seeing the bushes whirl by. Eventaully, of course, my sawing on the reins stopped him. I had been SOOOO scared , I mean like I thought I was going to die, I became very angry and took my dressage whip , reversed it in my hand, and cracked it down on top of his head. AFTER he had stopped! I yelled at him, and cracked him on his noggin because extreme fear produces extreme anger. I was ashamed to tell anyone about my reaction.



Just a few seconds later, a walker rounded the corner. if we had not stopped there, we would have run right over this walker.


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## gottatrot

I think it's better if horse people are honest with each other. Horses will benefit more if we understand it's not all fairy tales and roses and we all have struggles. 

If people think trained horses always behave perfectly, it can become a real dilemma when a horse does something dangerous. People think something must be really wrong and consider that they may need a different horse. But things happen sometimes. Bees sting and people shoot guns or throw sticks into the woods.

Also, I am sure even the most guru of horse gurus lose their tempers sometimes.


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## Knave

I agree with that. Some people seem so apt to keep all of their bad moments secret, and then other people believe that they are the only ones who struggle. Then we are alone and ashamed and our reactions become actually worse because of the excessive emotion tied into it.

When we know others are scared or frustrated in certain situations we lose that shame and it is easier to chose bravery or patience.


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## Hondo

Fortunate that the horse is not so quick to anger and it's expression towards us!


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## gottatrot

True, horses are usually much better than us at warning before applying punishment. I swear Halla was like, "If you don't stop, I'm going to bite you. Now I'm going to count to three. One..."

I went for a short ride on Hero yesterday. Starting to work on his courage going out without Amore down the road. I can lead him, but he feels more vulnerable when I'm on him so I need to do both. 

We only went a few steps outside his comfort zone, but he was very calm and only complained a little by turning his head toward my foot with open mouth when I asked him to walk past where he wanted to stop. 
I jiggled the reins to discourage foot biting. When he started forward I turned him back toward home. Seemed positive.

Progress with difficult horses can be very slow. But I was remembering that Hero used to spend most of the time screaming at me with his body language and maybe a year ago if I'd asked him to go forward he would have reared or spun.

It's all relative. It can take a very long time to change an animal and get them to trust in your consistency. We got our barn cat 3 years ago and he still is gaining more trust in us. Just this week he jumped on our bed on his own, and not long ago he got on my lap without me putting him there. 

Someone would see Hero suggesting he bite my foot when I ask him to move on and think it rude and aggressive. But really he found a much nicer way than rearing or flinging his body around to communicate that he did not want to go away from his safe zone.

Then it was my job to say "I hear you." I tried the Zeus/mule approach and waited ten seconds, then asked again. Sure enough, then he decided to go. 

Nala's rider thought Hero was a pony mare inside. Maybe a pony mule or Fjord mare. Great. 😄😄


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## Knave

Hahahahaha! His spirit animal is Zeus. If it is Zeus maybe when he turns around and decides to go with the program he will be exceptionally steady.


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## gottatrot

Perhaps we have to expect a certain personality type from horses with such lofty names.

Hero certainly suffers from loneliness too, and the complex of being superior to other horses.
Working on the loneliness, we have been going down the road without Amore.
But Hero has to stop and present himself to each horse we pass, stopping and assuming the arched neck posture, so the other horses can see how amazing he is I guess.

He just waits for a reaction, but the horses around here mostly just blink at him. They apparently only see Clark Kent and not the super hero inside.

But the hero is more like a cowardly lion, and as soon as we get away from the other horses he spooks like a timid Amore.

We need to work on courage for sure. I hadn't realized that only going with Nala meant Hero has not learned to rely yet on himself and his rider. This took Amore a long time too.


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## bsms

I've worked hard on solo rides with Bandit. He's become pretty good, but he'll always be better with another horse. I think he feels a need to behave to a higher standard when another horse is there. A horse with "a stiff upper lip" trying to keep the masses of mortal horses calm by his example...


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## Knave

It is funny how some horses are confident alone and others struggle. My husband and I have had this conversation in depth a few times. Often a lonely horse is accused of having a rider who hasn’t worked on it enough. However I know of a few horses for whom that is a load.

Take Bones. Bones can do anything alone in certain environments, but the second he is in an environment he doesn’t like he becomes so extremely lonely that it is impossible to get the job done. Now, he’s been ridden as much as any horse has alone, but I’ve been accused of not doing enough. 

Another couple horses I know just one day decided to become lonely. These were horses constantly ridden alone and solid horses; their loneliness was not to the extent of Bones, but they were lonely.

Zeus is different. He was naturally lonely, but he is overcoming it with riding out. He is the type that builds on experience and then is truly confident. He has gone out alone and not died, and now he is understanding in most situations that he will be able to do the same. Immersion therapy maybe...

So, I guess there are different ways horses think about being alone, and so maybe some like Zeus convince people that it is something to be worked through. I do think it is always worth trying and being consistent about, and yet I also think some horses have a personality which will always have them lonely.


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## knightrider

> It is funny how some horses are confident alone and others struggle. My husband and I have had this conversation in depth a few times. Often a lonely horse is accused of having a rider who hasn’t worked on it enough. However I know of a few horses for whom that is a load.
> 
> Take Bones. Bones can do anything alone in certain environments, but the second he is in an environment he doesn’t like he becomes so extremely lonely that it is impossible to get the job done. Now, he’s been ridden as much as any horse has alone, but I’ve been accused of not doing enough.
> 
> Another couple horses I know just one day decided to become lonely. These were horses constantly ridden alone and solid horses; their loneliness was not to the extent of Bones, but they were lonely.
> 
> Zeus is different. He was naturally lonely, but he is overcoming it with riding out. He is the type that builds on experience and then is truly confident. He has gone out alone and not died, and now he is understanding in most situations that he will be able to do the same. Immersion therapy maybe...
> 
> So, I guess there are different ways horses think about being alone, and so maybe some like Zeus convince people that it is something to be worked through. I do think it is always worth trying and being consistent about, and yet I also think some horses have a personality which will always have them lonely.


 @Knave, I love everything you wrote. You are so right. I've had a bunch of horses in my life. Some of them are just fine solo. Others are never completely comfortable. It took me six years to get Isabeau riding nicely solo. Now, she's pretty dependable by herself, but she'd much prefer having another horse. Acicate rides exactly the same if I am solo or with 100 horses. He knows who he is, what he wants, and what he thinks. He doesn't care what anybody else thinks or wants (including me, ha ha).


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## horseluvr2524

Hey y'all. It's been a long time. How's it going?
My life has had minimal horse activity in it, which pains me, but I'm muddling through. I get out to the barn once a week on Sunday afternoons to see Shan. She's doing well, enjoying a semi-retirement at 17 since life is not allowing for much riding right now. She's loving the green grass and cooler climate, and remains boss of the herd (surprise, surprise... lol). She's lacking muscle right now due to some diet changes needed, so I'm switching her over to Nutrena Empower Topline Balance, which coincidentally is how I ended up here, looking at a post on the ingredients list for said feed, and one thing led to another.


Hope Gottatrot doesn't mind the random note, but this thread is one of the easiest ways to say hi to my favorite group of HF people.


My munchkin just turned 2 and she's doing great. She's so stinking smart, knows the whole alphabet and the phonetics for each letter (I think she'll read by 3). She's a little daredevil, loves to climb on things bigger kids avoid, and is already very much into riding. She gets upset if she catches me riding without her. She's not very interested in the grooming and horse care side of things, something I'm going to have to work on, lol.


Sad news, found out this past weekend that my mom had to put her horse, Belle, down last month. She didn't go into much detail about what happened, but something about Belle being tied up, and got a rope around her leg, and ended up breaking her leg. I had nothing but sympathy for my mom of course over the phone whenever I spoke to her. But privately, after a few days, I realized that I was in fact grieving a horse I hadn't seen in about 3 years, and was harboring some anger towards my mother. I do feel that it's very likely that my mother made an easily preventable mistake of some kind, as she was always doing things like that whenever we enjoyed our horse hobby together, and I felt like her head was a sieve that was always letting the information I tried to give to her fall through the bottom. However, as my husband says, we weren't there, and we don't know what really happened. It was very sad to find out but I'm at peace with it now.


Glad to see that Amore and Hero are doing well, Gottatrot. Congrats on the move! 

I'm so looking forward to getting our hobby farm, whenever that happens. Would love to be able to have horsey friends in for visits. Husband apparently wants to set up a boarding operation ("If we're going to have the land and setup, why not get something out of it?"). So we will see what happens.
If you are ever in southern Ohio, let me know. I'd love to meet up again, even if just for coffee. I always treasure the memory of tearing down the beach on a horse with no brakes with my crazy Arabian riding friend. It was exhilarating, and not quite as scary as exercising racehorses.


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## SueC

I just had to ask: @gottatrot, did you have the pleasure of seeing Nadal bagel Djokovic in the Roland Garros final last night? It was a thing of beauty... :happydance:

Hello, @horseluvr2524! :wave: Nice to hear from you. Wow on the reading, go little girl!  Entire universes await on those lovely shelves...


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## gottatrot

Really great responses about the loneliness issues. I will be interested to see how Hero turns out. So far it seems he can become very comfortable in an area we have been safe in, but as soon as we are further out he gets very spooky. 

I dealt with this so much with Amore, but Halla was like Acicate, completely herself and it spoiled me.
@SueC, we haven't started TV or internet yet so I missed the tennis. I would have loved to see that match.
@HorseLuvr, so great to hear from you!! I was just wondering the other day how you were doing. I was hoping it was going well. Sounds like your little girl is a sharp and amazing person.

So sad about Belle. I'm a bit judgmental if I know someone is careless or thoughtless about horses. A woman I knew was not ethical, and when I heard her horse died in an "accident" I blamed her. She put a green mustang in a makeshift round pen and pressured her until she jumped out, impaling herself on a t-post.

I have had accidents with horses but you have to use some level of safety and caution or it is your fault.

Glad to hear our beach ride is a good memory. What fun that was. 

A couple days ago I took Hero on a walk alone. It's a little hard to explain how momentous it was. 

Flash back some months and imagine walking a TB whose body is arched with head and hindquarters toward the handler. 

Every several steps he would flap his lips and chomp his teeth toward me, bobbing his head. Every now and then he would bolt forward and I would have to pull his head around, then straighten him up. Sometimes hopping and rearing would be involved. For certain on every walk alone around the property I could expect him to rear at least once.

Back to our recent walk. We just walked. He looked around at the scenery, his mouth and head were still, and he seemed to be enjoying himself. He looked happy. We mostly went places we had been before. But that in the past did not keep him from being anxious.

Today on our walk he was more anxious, because we went new places, and it was windy and rainy. He still was at a level 3 compared to an 8 or 9 for anxiety, and only looked at me a couple of times instead of directing anxious snapping teeth in my direction.

I was thinking about how Hero has kicked me pretty good a couple times and recently run over me. My handling of him has to be this delicate balance of trust versus careful decisions about when to be close or loose on the lead, how much distance and space to use. 

Still, every step toward calmness is a step toward safety, and I see good progress. 
With tricky horses...it's like you have to handle them until they can be handled, walk them until they can be walked, pick up their feet until you can pick them up, and ride them until they can be ridden. 😊😊


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## egrogan

@horseluvr2524- nice to see your name pop up here. I think I recently saw a very old thread with your name in it, which sent me wondering how you were. Glad to hear things are going well!


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## horseluvr2524

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome and wishes! :hug:

@gottatrot I've used the method that you are using for getting a horse to go alone many times with success. First, get the ground work solid at the barn. Then lead them on short walks. Eventually go farther. Assuming the riding is solid at home, then we work on riding out. In the beginning though, I've always found they go easier if they are able to follow you, so long as they trust you.


Hot-minded horses are always sort of a different animal though. I feel like, like you said, you just have to keep doing things over and over and over again with them, until hopefully one day they remember that it's ok and nothing to be freaked out about.


Shan got very hot last summer and difficult to ride. I thought I was going to have to get a stronger bit because the snaffle just was not doing it (and she's been trained to stop with a squeeze of your inner thigh and a touch of the rein, so it wasn't for lack of training of course). I figured it was the grain giving her issue as I just had the barn owner feeding whatever mix she gave hers. Sure enough, took her off it, and even the barn owner said she noticed a difference inside of a week. Reason I said all of that, maybe it's something in his food giving him nervous energy? Granted, you've probably already looked at all of that; I'm just throwing it out there. Very glad he is making progress; before you know it you'll be riding out all by your lonesome, and hopefully without a care in the world.



I'm curious: does Hero feel like a very powerful engine when you ride him, like a freight train? That is what one of my favorite horses to ride ever was like. Even his walk felt so powerful, it seemed like he was going to bolt at any second, yet he was completely relaxed. He wasn't a nervous sort at all and easily stopped and handled, but you could just feel that powerful racing engine beneath you (I'm determined to find another horse like him someday). I've ridden a lot of horses, but not too many TBs, and no other horse I've ever ridden felt like this one, so I'm just curious what Hero is like.


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## knightrider

> He wasn't a nervous sort at all and easily stopped and handled, but you could just feel that powerful racing engine beneath you (I'm determined to find another horse like him someday). I've ridden a lot of horses, but not too many TBs, and no other horse I've ever ridden felt like this one,


This is exactly why I like Paso Finos. Most of them are like this. The first time my friend rode our Tico, she said, "It's like driving a Ferrari--total power under total control."


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## horseluvr2524

knightrider said:


> This is exactly why I like Paso Finos. Most of them are like this. The first time my friend rode our Tico, she said, "It's like driving a Ferrari--total power under total control."



Interesting. The horse I was talking about was a thoroughbred (I think I said that?), an ex-racehorse actually. I'd thought with a gaited horse you wouldn't really feel the gait, they're supposed to be very smooth; but then again I've ridden almost zero gaited horses.


My Shan could almost be a gaited horse, minus the actual special gaits. She is so smooth, you don't feel much of anything until you get her moving really fast (fast walk, extended trot, gallop, etc.)


Now I really want to try riding some of these Spanish-bred horses. I definitely want to try a Paso, but I've also never had the chance to try a well-bred Andalusian (I mean, how many people do? Unless you're in Spain where they're common). I wonder what such a horse would be like.


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## knightrider

Years ago, I went to Spain and spent three weeks on an Andalusian horse farm, Rancho de Paz. It was so much fun. I accidentally started something while I was there. I was given an Andalusian to ride that I didn't like AT ALL. Everyone else seemed to like their horses just fine. After a couple of days, I told the head "wrangler" that I didn't enjoy my horse and did they have something else I could try. 

He said, "Which horse would you like to ride?" I said the name of the horse that looked really fun, and they gave him to me the next day. His former rider got my 'no fun' horse. She also did not enjoy him, so they gave her her horse back and gave me the next person's horse, and that person also did not want to ride the horse I originally had. That started a trend, and every day everyone was riding different horses. We had so much fun, comparing notes. The Andalusians were very very nice and fun to ride (except that one which nobody would ride). I ended up with their nicest brood mare, who hadn't been ridden in 6 years, and she was so fabulous, that everyone else clamored to ride her and thought so too.

I also have had a ton of fun riding TN Walkers, who have lots of "go", animation, and just thrilling to ride, but kind, calm, and gentle.


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## Hondo

Just struck me that perhaps the unpopular horse was exceptionally bright at knowing how to dissuade people from riding him without getting into trouble.


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## knightrider

Ha ha @Hondo, that unpopular horse was so dull. He'd drag behind the others in the group, and you'd have to kick kick kick him every couple of strides. If you put him in front, he'd stride out really fast and way outpace the group. It was such a fun group, everyone laughing and joking. The person on that lousy horse never could participate, either being way behind or way ahead. He was just ploddy, dull, unresponsive, and yucky. He didn't come across as smart, but maybe he was smarter than we thought.


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## Hondo

Strange. Slow in the back but fast up front. Maybe he was social distancing? Doesn't seem like a dull horse would bother outpacing the pack. Why would he do that? Sounds like possibly an interesting horse in some ways if a person had time or ways to reach him. Just musing again at 5 am.


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## horseluvr2524

That horse actually sounds a lot like what Shan used to be like, before I got the saddle fit issue fixed. Maybe his saddle bothered him. I wonder if he was very high withered, like Shan is, which makes saddle fitting a very difficult problem. Or maybe he was just a loner that didn't like being with the herd. Probably would have made a lovely solitary ride.


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## gottatrot

Riding the andalusians in Spain sounds like fun.

No, Hero does not feel like a sports car. He is like a big truck. There is a lot of power but shifting through the gears is rough. Acceleration and braking can take a while. Once you get up to cruising speed it is smooth, but you know how the steering is a bit loose and the corners go wide, and you kind of rattle around if you ask for too much...he's like that.

Nickel, the TB I rode a lot recently was more like a motorcycle. He could accelerate powerfully but you had to use your body a lot for smooth turns and if you braked or throttled too hard he'd pop a wheelie or skid out. You felt "out there" on his back, not like sitting in a truck like on Hero.

Halla was like a sport car, but a small one with too much engine for its frame. So the ride was more about raw power than smoothness.

Nala is like a big sports car, but more of a luxury model. Acceleration so smooth you don't realize you're flying until you look out the window. But tricky because everything is set for performance, so using the steering wheel or brakes too hard could send you skidding off.

My experience with gaited horses agrees with @knightrider. 
I rode my cousin's peruvian paso, Tory for a while before getting Amore. Tory felt super hot and powerful, but he'd be gaiting along furiously, snorting away and never spook at anything, and slow, stop or turn on a dime.

I also used to ride a tennessee walker named Big Red. His gaits were big and carried you along fast, but he was responsive, sweet and gentle.

It's not that you're more still on a gaited horse, it's that you don't bounce up and down. Smooth can be a bit of a misnomer I think, because you still feel the muscles moving and have to allow your body to follow the motion.


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## gottatrot

Today one of the cables broke on one of Hero's Renegades. I am going to measure him for some Scoot Boots.

I could get parts and repair the boot, but they were hand me downs from Halla so never fit exactly. I can use a back boot on the front for now, and those are a size smaller so it shows how they didn't quite fit. 

Probably he will do fine walking on the gravel roads with just front boots for the moment.

The horses' hooves are looking pretty good at the moment. I'd been fighting white line on Amore and cracks on Hero for several months before we moved.

I hadn't been feeding a hoof supplement, but started one again a couple months before the move. I think the result of that is finally showing, plus the majority of their diet is very good hay now, we had some dry weather, and I am convinced the sand they were on up north had some bad organisms that got inside any chip or crack.

I don't think every horse needs a hoof supplement. Amore's issues are primarily from having Cushing's, I believe, because she had great hooves into her mid-20s and no issues.

Hero's hooves are majorly improved from when I got him. They were unbalanced, flared, and run forward. But he has tiny hooves for his size, smaller than Halla's were. The walls are also not super thin but not thick. He has a lot more sole now, and his frogs are good.

I've discussed with @loosie about TB feet. Her opinion is that most of the issues are not genetic but come from factors such as being kept in stalls when young, on groomed surfaces, with grain diets and poor trimming.

I think that is largely true, but also I believe the hooves are barely considered when breeding TBs, one reason being the horses are kept shod even on dirt and turf. I think Hero's tiny feet come mainly from genetics. 

That being said, I think he would have far better and slightly bigger hooves if he'd been born out on a high desert range in eastern Oregon and roamed endlessly for his first 5 years.
But Arabs and Mustangs and Icelandics had to select for good hooves or die. TBs did not.

I have another theory about why many TBs continue to have less than great hooves even after lifestyle and diet changes. Biotin is a B vitamin synthesized in the gut. We know track TBs do not have healthy guts. My theory is that a lack of B vitamins during their young years when the hooves are developing is detrimental.

Changing the gut with a roughage diet and no grain, getting a horse moving 24/7, plus good trimming has to help a lot. But all the OTTBs that come into good care after adulthood can only improve so much, from what I have seen.

Forgot to answer @HorseLuvr's question: it would be nice if I could blame diet for Hero being spooky but he only gets hay and vitamins. I think it is the way his brain is. But I have to remember Amore could spook every 60 seconds when she was his age.
She hardly ever spooks now. Old age can be a blessing lol.


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## Hondo

Following the measurement directions when ordering my first pair of Scoot's resulted in too large size. Fortunately I had been recommended to place the boots on a carpet surface with his feet in a shopping bag for trying them on as the boots had to be perfect for returns.


It was suggested to go down one size. I had ordered wides. I went down one size but also ordered slims. Fit perfect. He's wearing them right now as he has for two years.


In addition to how they fit in the front is how the loops fit over the heel bulbs. That's very important.


One of my theories about TB feet, which is only a theory, concerns dirt bikes. 



Huge amounts of money is spent on reducing what is called unsprung weight which is the parts of the bike not carried by the springs and goes up and down with the terrain and wheels. Those parts are continuously going up, stopping, going down, stopping, repeat. The more air time they have, the less forward traction and the less steerage there is. Lighter means less air time and more ground contact time.


I think the same is true for a horses feet in terms of how fast they go. Why else would thin aluminum shoes be used? 



So the theory goes that in selecting horses with the highest top speeds, the horses are inadvertently selected for the lightest feet which may result in less sturdy feet.


Just a theory, feel free to chuck it.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, if you use Facebook, you could look for Stacy Pratt's Heartland Scoot Boots page. She's a great help in fitting using pictures of measurements. She'll sell them to you as well, but isn't a high pressure type. I believe she also has fitting kits that she loans out if you want to try them on.


Overall I'm a big fan of the boots, they've worked very well for Fizz. I'm still using her original pair, which I bought in fall 2018, and now have several hundred miles of riding on them. They're starting to look a bit worn at the toe breakover so may need to replace next year, but so far so good! Let me know if you have any questions or want to see photos/videos of any of the parts or pieces.


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## gottatrot

Thanks @Hondo and @egrogan for the boot fitting advice.


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## Knave

I like the vehicle descriptions. Cashman is named as such not just because his name was Cash in prison, but because Cashman is a company that deals in Caterpillar equipment. Cash feels like a D10. Lol. He does what he’s asked, but his big body is one of power above agility. He tries his best of course, but he’s just so stinking big! Today I was saddling and got confused by a new muscle. Lol

Now, Zeus feels like a 4 wheeler. He’s fun and quick when you want him to be, but he seems made for climbing mountains. He pulls things around too and just does whatever you need done.

Bones is the Ferrari of the group, and like a Ferrari he doesn’t believe he belongs in the mountains. He prefers sports and showing off, but he is exceptional on good terrain.

This is a fun game.


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## gottatrot

Those are great, @Knave. Your description of Cash reminded me we used to knickname a horse built like him "Dozer" because we could have him push through dense underbrush and clear a path for the other horses.


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## SueC

How's everything settling in, @gottatrot? Does your new life seem "normal" yet?


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## gottatrot

Yes, @SueC, things are getting more and more settled in. Thanks for asking. 

I almost had a heart attack this morning because I've thought things were going well at my new job. But my manager showed up early on a Saturday morning to talk to me about a big mistake. 

When she explained it to me, I just couldn't see how it had happened. So I asked to go look up the file and soon found out it wasn't my patient and another nurse had made the mistake. Whew.


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## gottatrot

I have ordered a demo pair of Scoot Boots to try in 4 slim. That way I can see how they are with movement too. 
Stacy Pratt is gone for a while so I went to the main website.
@Hondo, it makes sense to me that smaller hooves would strike the ground with more force and generate more impulsion. A high heeled shoe applies more pressure than a tennis shoe.

Had a very good ride on Hero today. A woman at my new barn went out with us on Mikey, a 22 year old seal brown QH almost the same color as Hero. 

She had been planning to ride her mule, Diamond, but she is younger and greener so she decided to see how Hero was first.

I put Amore out in the lower field, and the elk were out so Hero was a little worried. However, the elk here are different from the ones up north. They are very spooky of humans and run off if I get within 200 ft. I've had elk that were difficult to spook away within 20 ft up north. But they are friendly with the horses and not aggressive.

Hero felt the need to always chase away the elk up north. Yesterday when I returned to bring the horses up from the lower field, some big females were grazing sociably only ten feet away from my horses. I've also seen lots of elk and deer poop in their field.

After we'd ridden a short distance down the road, Hero called to Amore. He got a little excited then and jigged a few feet. Then he spooked when we went around a corner and hopped.

Mikey did not react to anything on the ride, and Hero settled within a couple of minutes every time after he was nervous. I was proud of him. There was a Boston Terrier named Gil along, and he flushed all the birds and deer ahead of us which was very helpful.

We crossed a concrete bridge over some water with no side rails. I joked that it was easier on Hero because if he did spook he was unlikely to throw himself over the side into the water like an Arab might. Hero just watched Mikey carefully as we went.

There was a loop that took about a half hour so we did it twice. It went on gravel roads and muddy trails, some of which were quite steep. Hero went down one a little sideways and bucked a time or two but overall handled it well and again settled quickly.

Mikey's rider said she had seen a lot of bear scat on this trail last week so Hero was probably smelling bears. The horses are on the edge of a town with 4,000 people which is 20 miles away from our slightly larger town. It is surrounded by undeveloped forestland.

We walked the last bit toward home on a loose rein and nicely relaxed. 

Apparently Mikey's rider is amenable to going out again with us.

A baby deer was climbing on a trailer so I tried to get a pic.


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## Knave

I’m so glad you asked her to look at the chart! I think I’d have cried. Lol

I’m also glad you had a great ride!!!


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## Hondo

Good to know Scoots have demo's now. Not available when Hondo got his. It's been two years so it looks like they've managed to offer trials now. Gloves did that when Hondo first got gloves.


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## gottatrot

The demo Scoot boots arrived yesterday and I am going to try them on a ride today if they seem to fit.


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## gottatrot

As far as I can tell, the Scoot boots are a size too big. I am hoping the next size down will fit. 
I could really wiggle them around, the front slit closed up completely, and there was extra "floor" space inside the boot. That being said, I rode in them for an hour and a half and they didn't turn or come off.

We went out again with Mikey and his rider yesterday. It didn't really go better than the last time, but I thought it was a good ride. We went all around the trails on the properties surrounding my boarding place.

Mikey's rider rents pasture from the feed store, and there is a nursery with property we ride on and they also board horses. So three boarding places in the area.

Hero is so different and funny. When we go into the woods his eyes are big and he sidles close to Mikey. Any hill or change in the surface and he was snorting and throwing in hops, a buck or jiggy steps.

One thing is that we kept going down the roads and up in the woods, but we were looping around and never more than 3/4 mile from home. Which means if Amore called, we could hear her faintly and then Hero would cry back to her. 

But Hero is different because the nursery had a huge excavator working in the road, a bulldozer and also a quad running around. These things made Mikey hesitate but Hero is not worried about trucks or equipment. I think those things are used all over at racetracks.

So Mikey led us through the woods, and Hero led past all the big equipment without blinking, only to spook at a swaying branch on the other side.

Then we went by some cows, and Mikey went close to show Hero it was OK. Hero still did not want to pass the monsters so I had to get off and lead him.

That was one issue, Hero did not want to leave the barn area, and also got stuck at various points when we ran into obstacles. The first several times I tried to push him on with legs and crop, but he is a "no means no" horse. Not sure why I don't have that in my head yet. You will not budge him no matter what. 

After several long waits and endless patience from Mikey's rider, I began hopping off and leading Hero past things and that was a good strategy. Plus probably much less irritating for Mikey's rider. 

Hero was the same with Nala. He doesn't just trust that it's probably fine if another horse does it. Oh no, he only trusts his own judgment. He's more like a mustang or mule that way. It is getting to where I can lead him by things though, so he seems to be trusting that I won't lead him into danger more and more. That's progress.


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## bsms

"_He doesn't just trust that it's probably fine if another horse does it. Oh no, he only trusts his own judgment._" - @gottatrot

That describes Bandit to a T. Bandit figures the other horses have made a deal with the Devil and are just trying to lure him into a trap. Not Likely! Bandit plans on living forever....


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## gottatrot

Haha that is great. 
Or sometimes I think Hero is doing math in his head. He learned about odds at the racetrack. "If one in four horses get eaten by cows, and Mikey did not get eaten, that increases my chances of getting eaten..."


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## gottatrot

@egrogan and @Hondo, I am curious what size Scoot boots your horses wear. The ones that seem too big for Hero are 4 slim.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> So Mikey led us through the woods, and Hero led past all the big equipment without blinking, only to spook at a swaying branch on the other side.


Couldn't help but laugh about this, as Fizz is the same way. She'll pass any kind of equipment, person on equipment, etc. But big boulders on the side of the trail make her shy away. M still laughs every time I'm telling Fizz, "you're fine, it's a rock." And you have my empathy on the cows...we're getting better with that, but it's still a production for us...



> After several long waits and endless patience from Mikey's rider, I began hopping off and leading Hero past things and that was a good strategy. Plus probably much less irritating for Mikey's rider.


Would Hero be more motivated to move forward if Mikey didn't stop and wait? Or would that make him more anxious? For awhile having Fizz move off while Coalie stalled out would convince Coalie to keep going because he didn't want to be left behind. But M and I so often go our separate ways and ride home alone that the horses are pretty used to one leaving the other at this point, so it doesn't necessarily work to get them moving past something scary. Sometimes getting off and leading just resolves the problem fast, without making a big deal of it. You know my feelings on the "never get off at any cost" crowd :wink:



gottatrot said:


> @*egrogan* and @*Hondo* , I am curious what size Scoot boots your horses wear. The ones that seem too big for Hero are 4 slim.


 The answer is "it depends"- it can vary a little bit based on trim cycle and the weather, but my general set up is 4 regulars with the endurance gaiters on the hinds, and 4 slims or 4 regulars on the fronts, depending on trim cycle. Without the endurance gaiters, I was doing 4 slims on the hinds. We had a bit of rubbing on the hinds this summer, and the gaiters have made a world of difference in that, but they do take up a bit of space in the boot. When it was very, very dry here this summer, I actually had an old pair of 3s that I could fit on the hinds. Funny how much moisture can make the foot expand or contract.

Sounds like a good idea to test out the size 3s to see how they look. If he ends up sort of "in between," you could play around with the gaiters or shims (they sit in the front of the boot, but don't take up nearly as much space as the gaiters will). But given how you described the sides touching on the front of the boot, I bet you'll be better off with the 3s, particularly if you've just trimmed him. I actually don't know the specs on the difference between a regular and a slim, but I was initially told that people generally use slims on the hinds and regulars on the front. 

Other than the sizing issue, did you like them?


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## Hondo

By carefully measuring Hondo's feet and using the Scoot chart, I ordered 5 wide for the front. There was such a large 'shelf' on each side that I didn't see how they could not come off in sticky mud.


After sending pictures, the recommendation was to go to 4 wide.


Looking at the chart, I decided to order 4 slims. Perfect!


3 slims for the hinds perfect also.


With 1/2 inch closed cell neoprene in the fores, he's wearing a size 5...........wide I believe. They are fairly loose fit even with the pads as he's in them 24/7.


Along with the gaiters, Scoot also makes a thin pad for the boots that lasts well. Dense neoprene it seems like. Anyhow, that will also tighten up the boots some. But being a little loose at the toe is not a big deal I don't think although I haven't tested at speed.


The important thing to watch out for if shimming to tighten up the front is to not get the heel bulb loops too tight. If you get a raw spot, that's where it will be. With the horse standing relaxed, the loops should be able to be wiggled around with one's fingers fairly freely.


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## Knave

I would like to think he’ll get better as he gets used to the surroundings. Bones, who hates new outside stuff, or really anything new, is probably my favorite within 10-15 miles of the house and at the ranch and on the roads on drives he’s been on several times. Lol

Cash doesn’t mind equipment either. He doesn’t love vehicles that are very far away, but if he’s close enough to them to know they are vehicles they don’t seem to bother him at all. I thought he would be the hardest to get used to those things, and he is definitely my easiest so far. 

Zeus is a “no means no” kind too for sure. I, even more so little girl of course, am lucky he rarely ever says no anymore. It is a hard personality.


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## gottatrot

Now I am thinking the 3s will be a good size for Hero after hearing what Hondo and Fizz wear. He has much smaller hooves in relation to his size than Amore.

The boots did seem to work great. I definitely like the lack of cables or velcro. Even though the fit seemed large they did not turn and stayed on well. My only concern with a larger size would be boot retention in the sand dunes and cantering. 

I am thinking even if the 3s are too small they will work on the hinds. 

If Mikey keeps walking away, Hero is like well, forget him then. Sometimes Nala would just leave us and Hero would still not cross the log or mud flats. Probably leading him will be best. 

One nice feature he has is that if he gets used to something it does not bother him any more. The deer around the barn can pop out under our nose but he knows about those deer so he doesn't even blink.

Nickel was different, if he lost sight of Nala he'd be willing to jump off a cliff to join her. It was a huge emergency for him. I tried to explain this to his owner so we could work on it but she wasn't so interested. If Nala disappeared I could either let Nickel join her in three seconds at a full gallop over rough ground or through the bushes, or I could hold him back and ride the bucking and rearing as he panicked. So basically I tried to stay up with Nala!


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## gottatrot

Today I went to put rain sheets on the horses. This is the first time it had rained for any period of time, we have had a very nice fall.

Uh oh, I had to let out Amore's belly strap to go around her.
I have had this philosophy that she is 29 with not a lot of dental surface left and putting weight on in the winter could become difficult.
Forget that, she is fat. Time to diet.

Hero is a bit tubby too.

Here is my problem. I put the horses onto an acre that was essentially a dry lot. Super short, dry grass, weedy, and previously had three horses on it full time. I decided there may not be enough for the horses to chew on and acted like hay was their only diet.

The people around the barn think I am nuts, I am sure. The culture is to throw manure out of the sheds and call it good. 

I've been cleaning 90% of the manure off my paddock every three days. It only takes 45 min or so. As a result, my "dry lot" now has at least green shoots on 90% of it and 8 inch grass on quite a bit of that. Combined with all the hay that keeps the horses busy, my paddock doesn't look like the other dry lots anymore.

But I've been feeding my nice green orchard grass hay like there is nothing else to eat. So I am cutting back...

Turns out when Hero does not have ulcers or pain and has his teeth taken care of, he's a super easy keeper TB. Kind of amazing having two easy keepers. Between the two I'm giving less than 25 lbs of hay now. Hopefully they will slim down a bit before spring, by which time my paddock may turn into a grass paradise.


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## Knave

That’s excellent about your pasture.

So, I have a question for you and anyone else who uses boots. You all know I used them on Bones for a couple years. 

Well, this year I just forgot to put them on for a couple of big girls work days, and he was fine, so I stopped putting them on and he stayed just fine. He did chip a small chip once, but I had gotten a little behind on trimming and I blamed it on that.

Zeus has never worn a boot. At first I had little girl avoiding very hard gravel road and things of the sort, but we took him hunting in big rocks and he climbed and climbed and came home perfect. Not a chip was to be seen and not a sore step taken... he was fine for lots of big rides.

I just pulled Cashman’s shoes. I want to leave him I think and just keep him trimmed up and see how it goes. After all, it’s been fine with the other two. Better than shoes because their feet are always done instead of waiting that 6-8 weeks...

Here’s the question I have come to: did any of you try to truly leave your horses barefoot? Do you wear the boots out of fear as I did or because you actually need them?


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## bsms

@Knave, I rode Bandit barefoot for some years before trying boots. The boots help with him. Not on average. He can handle most of the trails without a problem. But there are a few patches where he does better with boots. Right now I need to make a 55 mile round trip to ride, so my riding is much reduced and making detours around those few very rocky spots would not be a big deal anyways.

If we start riding Trooper again, we need to get him boots. He has a crack in his front left hoof. Been there for 1.5 years now. Every time it is almost gone - down to maybe 1/8 inch - I'll go out a day later and find a 1 inch long crack. It doesn't bother him in the corral but the rocks on the trail would be a serious issue. Takes months for the crack to almost heal, and then it always splits again. I think he'll have it until he dies.

If he had to work on the ranch he came from, he'd be dead. He couldn't handle 12+ hour days and I don't think iron shoes will change anything. MAYBE if I kept him shod for the rest of his life...but since he shows no signs of pain and is rarely ridden? The ranch can't afford horses who cannot work. I can.

If we move, most of the places we are looking at should be much easier on the horses' feet. The longer we are in Benson the less likely I think it is we will buy here. It is neither fish nor fowl - not far enough away from Tucson to make a genuine difference. We either need to go further or move back to the house we already own. But almost ANYWHERE we move would have ground easier on their feet and then I'd stop using hoof boots with Bandit.

Trooper? I may try iron shoes for a while. If the crack never heals, he'll need boots in most places. Except he is largely a lawn ornament now.

PS: Mia was barefoot the 7 years I owned her. Never saw any sign she needed help. Same with Cowboy. And in truth, while they help Bandit in places, he could get away without them. He did for several years.


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## gottatrot

I started using boots when we were riding long miles on gravel logging roads. 

With the Arabs, I later tried to toughen their hooves by going barefoot on the gravel roads.
Even Halla had really great hooves before she foundered. She wasn't one who had chronic laminitis or thin soles before her health fell apart.

I didn't see any problems, but both horses became more reluctant about going out. After putting boots back on that went away. But that was trotting and cantering for miles on gravel and lock rock, no grass or dirt. I never put boots on for natural surfaces.

After Halla foundered, her soles were thin so I booted her for rides.

With Hero, he was scraping the toes off his hind hooves even in the sand so I started booting him. His hooves are not great enough to ride on gravel roads without boots. They are getting to where we can ride on natural surfaces without boots.

For horses with decent hooves I only boot if we're on rocky surfaces for a long time.


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## Hondo

This was Hondo's foot probably in 2015. Before it was opened, it was "just" a crack.


With dedication, it grew out solid all the way.


Did the same with a horse named Dragon a couple years later.


There is infection at the deepest reaches of the crack. It's a race between how fast the hoof grows and how fast the microbes chomp upwards. The hoof usually wins, but once the crack is large enough there is a ample opportunity for the microbes to keep coming and keep winning. The upper reaches of the infection is such a tight crack it is not even visible to the naked eye, mine at least.


Opening the crack allows oxygen to get in and keeps it wide enough that dirt does not get packed in. I used ThrushBuster on both cases about 2-3 times per week. Plus a tiny tiny screwdriver like on the original Leatherman was used to dig the crumbles out each time so the TB would penetrate further.


Shoes will not stop the infection once it has opened a crack. Likely keep it closed off to oxygen and make it worse.


The crack on Hondo was treated under online supervision of Patty Stiller. Here on the forum.


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## bsms

Thank you, @Hondo. I'll try some thrush medicine. Trooper's crack is a hairline crack. Never spreads apart. This hoof tends to flare out at the sides and I need to trim regularly to keep them from causing a sideways pull on the hoof WHEN he steps on a rock - which he WILL do regularly in the corral. If I trim the flares regularly it has ALMOST beat the crack - but I'm now living 27 miles away. Just don't see them as much. Makes me realize how lucky I've been to have them in my backyard. A 55 mile round trip takes a lot of the fun away. I actually miss cleaning the corral. Feeding and cleaning is just a good time of hanging out with the boys, so to speak.

The good news is he'll still race around or sometimes "fight" with the other horses. Not so much at 22 now, but no sign he is hurting. It is SOOO frustrating to think, "We've almost got this thing beat! Just another 1/8 inch...." - and then go out 2 days later and see a 1 inch crack! 

There are a number of things that attract me to either Chino Valley in the north or Huachuca City to the south, but one nice thing BOTH places have is better ground! Even Benson is a virtual horse paradise for ground compared to where we've lived!

But part of it is also that Trooper has weaker hooves. Don't know if it is an Appy thing, or white hooves, or bad luck or what. But Lilly, Mia, Cowboy & Bandit have no issues. Trooper has thin hoof walls and an odd sideways flare to things. His hooves have always chipped frequently. I spent a year giving him supplements but saw no change at all.


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## Hondo

Don't be fooled by it being a hairline crack. Hondo's was also. Pete Ramey goes so far as to say "any crack including superficial surface crack are infected".


The crack is not caused by forces. The crack is caused by microbes eating away the part that hold the wall together. 



ThrushBuster has in incredible wicking action. When applied to a thin crack it often travels up the crack into areas where the crack cannot even be seen.


No amount of trimming, shoeing, or booting will ever cause the crack to disappear. Killing the microbes on the frontline of the infection is the only thing that will cause the crack to disappear to never return. But the trick is to treat the front line of infection frequently until the frontline area grows down with the hoof wall and finally disappears at the bottom.


I buy my Teff hay down at Chino Valley now.


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## gottatrot

I've also got a 40 mile drive now to see the horses so can sympathize. 

I don't know how a horse with really bad hooves could survive on that kind of ground. 

Like @Hondo I've only had luck with growing out cracks when combining trimming with thrush treatment. Hero responds to any type because he has a good immune system. Amore needs stronger stuff and I had to use copper sulfate in a tube on a couple cracks for her several months ago. I would think running thrush buster down the top of the crack might help.

When the horses have been on clay soil the organisms have been more superficial (frogs and collateral grooves). On sand the organisms seemed to work inside any chip or crack and go deeper. I wonder if that is the same in your drier climate, with a finer footing.


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## Hondo

I'll add that what I've posted is not uncommon knowledge but is very common knowledge among any and all competent and knowledgeable hoof care providers.


And again, oxygen if it can reach the infection is the very best treatment against it.


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## SueC

Another successful approach to hoof cracks I've seen in racehorses is formaldehyde (to sterilise the whole site), then glue the crack. The glue used (through Australian farrier outlets) is similar to superglue, and I've seen several cases where people have used actual superglue to do it successfully. Obviously, if the crack gapes a lot, it's a different proposition, but in racehorses they tended to catch stuff like this early. Cracks do start from a combination of mechanical, microbiological and nutritional factors on the whole, and once the crack is there, mechanical, microbiological and nutritional factors tend to keep it going unless all three are addressed (biotin deficiency has been one nutritional issue in local horses that reduces their horn quality, but there's plenty more factors). In a leisure horse with a hoof crack, I would be riding booted for extra protection until the problem is resolved, because it is very easy to split a crack further mechanically if you ride on gravel etc.

Yes, formaldehyde is carcinogenic, but so are quite a few other things in our environment and even our food (and formaldehyde is sadly still permitted in a lot of building materials and often de-gasses into new homes to be breathed in by occupants, which is not good); to help with cases like hoof cracks or seedy toe I've seen it be extremely useful - it's a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. Both conditions are really hard to shift and take time and a lot of care to address as the hoof has to grow out and do it faster than the microbial infections progress into the new horn.

To answer your question about booting versus not in our own horses, I don't usually boot Sunsmart riding him in the sandy valley floor (only if his feet are soft from waterlogging due to rain and he complains about roots and gum nuts as a result), but I do boot him on our gravelly ridges. Booting is less necessary in summer, when the hooves are quite dry and much harder. So in summer, the roots and gum nuts in the valley floor don't make him go "ouch."

We've got a new gravel driveway some of you have seen, which the horses and donkeys have to cross to get from their enclosed paddocks to the large "common" with access to bushland tracks. When it's been raining, most of them walk very carefully across this gravel - for the same reason I would when crossing it barefoot. Freshly trimmed animals or animals with hoof issues will be extremely careful and may start going "ouch" if they step on bigger gravel pieces while crossing. After prolonged dry spells, the gravel driveway doesn't bother them nearly as much. (It's spring and the pasture is green and moist; at night there's dew etc)


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## Hondo

ThrushBuster has formaldehyde as a component. Big Brown got a hoof crack. The crack was glued. Said he'd be fine. Went on to race the third leg of the Triple Crown and jockey said as soon as he mounted he knew he didn't have a horse. Lost race.


If only a few bugs were missed by the treatment before gluing, the infection and hence the crack would continue going upward.


Hondo was ridden during the time his crack was growing out. Which took about 5 months with treatment 2-3 times per week with probing for dead material and daily cleaning and frequent soaking in dilute lysol. 



He was booted when ridden but barefoot in rocks otherwise. Notice the heavy slope on the toe at the crack. That was suggested to remove mechanical forces on breakover.


By the way, the Patty Stiller I mentioned was not just another forum member. She has a list of letters behind her name as long as your arm. Was the hands on person at U.C Davis equine department for several years and was an examiner for ELPO for a number of years. Big loss when she left the forum.


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## SueC

You're not supposed to _race_ a horse with a hoof crack, or have it in fast work - and particularly so with harness horses, who race on pretty hard surfaces - the concussion would be prohibitive for crack repair. The most you can do with them in jog them on sand tracks, with protection over the affected hoof, so they maintain some basic fitness and don't get bored. You shouldn't race them or have them unprotected on risky footing until the crack has grown out.

I personally saw two horses treated with formaldehyde and glue, and they recovered uneventfully because it was done properly. The advantage of the glue was that it cut down on the time taken for recovery compared to not glued - because of added protection from mechanical stresses. One of these horses was a consult which had gone for more than six months failing to heal previously, whose hoof crack stopped progressing after formaldehyde / glue treatment, and finally grew out. The other was a horse who was treated immediately the crack was noticed, so wasn't off racing for very long afterwards. In both cases, the horses were put on added nutritional supplements including biotin. In both cases also, the owners started feeding these supplements to their other horses, and noticed that it improved the quality of the horn - stronger, more elastic - and that the horses then didn't tend to develop hoof cracks. These are horses with regular hoof care, in performance sport - paddock horses with neglected feet and poor nutrition quite commonly develop hoof cracks in Western Australia (where a lot of people throw "retirement" horses into paddocks and stop giving them regular hoof care).

My own horses (and donkeys) are supplemented with a vitamin/mineral mix and I trim every 4-5 weeks, and though they sometimes chip when they run (free-range) through the forest tracks which have bits of rock on them, I've not had to deal with a hoof crack in the ten years we've been running horses on this property. The neighbour's horse, however... just thrown in the paddock post-racing as a rescue and has neglected feet, including several cracks quite a way up the hoof wall, poor thing. She's not lame on it, but I do wish people gave regular foot care to retired horses.


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## bsms

It definitely isn't just an infection that perpetuates Trooper's crack. Our corral is rocky and harder than most trails. Nothing to do about it other than move. The ground is rocks with some dirt. I suppose if I built a retaining wall and then filled in a few feet of dirt....but no other horse has the problem and that would be extremely expensive, even if the county gave me permission.

So he is constantly exposed to rocks. Not just when riding. At all times. The farrier says it is in part because Trooper is exposed to mud, then dry. Bandit loves to splash water out of the water bucket, so there is mud where they drink and super dry ground everywhere else. Which means his hooves get wet, then dry.

Plus his hoof walls are about half the thickness of the other horses. That is why his hooves have always chipped so much. Unlike Mia / Bandit / Cowboy & Lilly - all of whom had/have thick hooves - Trooper just doesn't have the hoof.

It is part of why I don't like to say boots or shoes are good or bad because so much can depend on the horse, terrain, etc. Supplements won't thicken Trooper's hooves. Tried for a year. Didn't help. Selling him isn't an option. After a dozen years, MOVING may become an option this spring.

My biggest issue with Mia, IMHO, was her need to run. She needed a LOT of exercise, including running. And she couldn't get it here. I'm finally pretty comfortable with Bandit cantering, but Bandit & I both realize he can canter a few hundred yards and then NEED to walk across the next 100 yards. Mia needed to run MILES to get her brain right. I understand. I've been a lifelong runner. I crave it too.

What Mia needed was what I could not provide her. Not here. When she went to the reservation, she had open land. Much softer footing. And when ridden, she could run 2, 3, 4 miles - as far as she was willing, really. That, plus being able to spend weeks at a time in a free roaming herd is what IMHO got her mind right. And it wasn't an option for me.

I hope to move in the spring/summer. Tucson is growing to merge with where we have spent the last 15 years. Houses are going up thick - and getting close to where we live. I hate the idea of living in a de facto suburb of Tucson. That may be the ultimate solution for Trooper. But yes, I'll try thrushbuster combined with what I've been doing. Maybe it will be enough to go from ALMOST fixing it to ACTUALLY fixing it.

Sorry if I sound defensive, but I've got a very good farrier and it has been very frustrating to work and work and ALMOST get the crack gone...and then see a 1" crack the next day. Like most owners, I don't have a perfect set up. Very few of us do. We struggle sometimes just to SEE our horses as often as we would like. We keep them in places that aren't perfect because few of us have the option of letting horses roam across open grassland. Many of you have jobs that prevent you from spending the time you want with them. Heck, lots of people lease a horse along with several others and then have to cope with not actually being the owner! That would frustrate me beyond belief! Most of us on HF try - unlike perhaps the average owner - but some problems are rooted in our options for keeping our horses. So we compromise and struggle.


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## Hondo

Well, Big Brown had won the first two Triple Crown races and was not about to pass up on winning the third. You can bet there was some extremely knowledgeable and experienced people calling the shots on that one. Bottom line, didn't work.


Hondo traveled several miles per day on turnout over extremely rocky terrain. 5 to 10 miles with the herd. The hoof grew out with dedicated care.


I'll say this and say no more. To claim there is more going on than just killing the infection, and keeping it at bay, flies in the face of every international hoof care expert on the entire planet earth.


You can take a horse to water.............


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## bsms

"To claim there is more going on than just killing the infection, and keeping it at bay, flies in the face of every international hoof care expert on the entire planet earth." - @Hondo

I doubt any of us has met "every international hoof care expert on the entire planet earth". And the older I get, the less I believe any statement 'backed by everyone in the world'. Life just isn't so dogmatic. 

I have a darn good farrier who has seen thousands of hooves. He isn't some bozo who just whacks at hooves. So I'll continue to discuss options with him. He has tried glues and was not impressed. Special shoes and wasn't impressed. I think he is at the same point I am: A horse with marginal hooves living on very challenging ground is just going to have challenges. He says Mia, Lilly, Cowboy and Bandit all have (or had) exceptional feet. Not because I'm a super horse owner or because he's a great farrier, but because they have good genetics.

It is kind of like the doctor who told me the key to long life was picking your parents wisely....

Enough said. If I need to discuss Trooper's feet further, I'll do so on my own journal. But yes, if we start riding him again, he'll need boots or shoes or SOMETHING. While Bandit, OTOH, was barefoot on today's ride and showed no need for help. Depends on the horse and the riding.


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## horseluvr2524

I let Shan's hooves go too long last winter and she developed toe cracks in both front hooves. I can believe that microbes/thrush/whatever played a part in that, due to the awful muddy conditions at the stable, sink your whole foot in sort of mud. Anyway, I never treated them with anything but just kept up a monthly trim, and they are fully gone. I was actually just reviewing the pictures from the last trim and I think those hooves look very good (pictures which I mean to send to you via PM @*gottatrot* , so you can critique me 


Every horse I knew (Shan's tough mustang hooves included) would chip and crack on the rocky Arizona trails. Almost all of them were shoed, some used boots. Shan would always chip without something on her fronts. (Edit to add: So hearing of horses that need nothing on rocky trails is amazing to me, and perhaps more of an anomaly in the horse population than something achievable by every horse) I can certainly see how rocky conditions can cause chronic and seemingly unsolvable issues for a horse with genetically weak hooves. On the other hand, treating (as often as feasibly possible, as circumstances allow) the hoof(ves) doesn't seem to me like it would hurt.


But I don't mean to carry on a conversation that's drawing to a close.


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## gottatrot

"...some problems are rooted in our options for keeping our horses. So we compromise and struggle." -bsms

That is actually a huge, philosophical part of keeping horses. Hearing about horses kept on hard, rocky ground with less great hooves makes me think about how many different compromises people have to make when keeping horses.

This comment has nothing to do with any comments in particular. It's just to say I've been learning lately that my own perspective of horses is sort of a "culture" based on my own experiences. I am trying to understand that everyone has their own culture like this.

So what may be rather easy and one dimensional-ish to one person might be a complex, multi-faceted problem for someone else.

I'm thinking of how in my climate horse diets require some science, and others think it is ridiculous to make it complicated. Some people have headaches that an aspirin takes away, others have to keep track of and avoid multiple triggers to prevent debilitating migraines.

Some horses shape up after a harsh reprimand, others take months of work to reshape a behaviour.

For me, putting a natural fibre girth on my horses removed all chafing issues. Simple. Phin, @PhantomHorse's Arab requires a complex and dedicated routine to prevent galls.

I guess my point is that a hoof crack can be easy or difficult, single factorial or multi, and all of us know best the factors that play into our situations.


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## Knave

That was an excellent point @gottatrot and just what I was thinking. Sometimes I think people forget that aspect a bit too easily. 

@horseluvr2524 I am worrying a bit about that. When you said maybe they are the anomalies... Zeus is a fjord, and I have heard they have insanely good feet. Working on his feet almost proves that. They feel like trying to run the rasp over rock. It’s a different feeling... the other horse my big girl ran barefoot this year didn’t face the same extreme footing that Zeus saw.... 

In any case I pulled Cashman’s shoes and I’m going to try running him barefoot for a time. If it works it will be great (our horses always run barefoot over winter, so it’s no test until springtime), and if it doesn’t I will have husband tack shoes back on him. I’m going to try and not overthink it.


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## horseluvr2524

@Knave


If your horse is fine everywhere else, maybe just boot him when he's on the rocky stuff. I know booting is an extra step in tacking up and some people prefer shoes for that reason. But there are some boots out there that are very quick to put on. From my experience, Cavallo boots are quick, easy, pain free.


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## Knave

Naw @horseluvr2524. I am willing to do that with Bones because there are reasons he must be barefoot, but anyone else it seems more of a pain to me than it’s worth. I know they don’t take long to put on, but when it’s 3am and everyone is fidgety I don’t love it. Bones never seems trippy, but I worry when things get harry anyways.

I did have a few wrecks with his last set of boots at the end too. They were slick because they just wore down that way eventually, and we got in a bad fall that would have been a huge problem on any other horse. Narrowly we hung on a slick mountainside, and he put a lot of thought into it before he tried to get up.

Those are cavillos, and they were great until then, but the expense of buying them and the added effort, plus my little lack of trust, combine to make shoeing easier for me.


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## gottatrot

I got the size 3 slim scoot boots and they seem to be the perfect size for Hero's front hooves. 
As others have said, using the measurement chart resulted in getting a size too big. I'm glad I got the demos first.

I didn't try them on the hind hooves since I was mainly concerned with whether the demos should be returned. So I have to see if the hinds will need another size down.

My first impressions of the scoot boots are that the low profile is very nice. I like how the soles are more flexible. Putting them on is easier than Renegades. Taking them off takes about three seconds. 

Since they have less moving parts and no cables, I am sure they will be my favorite boot.


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## Hondo

FWIW

I was searching around for trimming schools/programs in Arizona and stumbled upon TLC Hoof Trimming in facebook. After reading her philosophy I wanted to share for anyone that might be near Tucson, AZ where she is located.

I was impressed that a visit by her would be money well spent. Wish she was in my area.

Scootboots. Another happy scootbooter! I was concerned at first about the lack of breakover on the toe but then finally realized the boot was so flexible that the breakover would occcur naturally through the boot at whatever location it was on the bare hoof.

Renegades were a great boot. I have four nearly new ones. They may be in trouble now and need to do some redesign.


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## horseluvr2524

Hondo said:


> FWIW
> 
> I was searching around for trimming schools/programs in Arizona and stumbled upon TLC Hoof Trimming in facebook. After reading her philosophy I wanted to share for anyone that might be near Tucson, AZ where she is located.
> 
> I was impressed that a visit by her would be money well spent. Wish she was in my area.


That is so funny that you mentioned her. Small world. She was my last farrier before I left Arizona. I can highly recommend, she's awesome. My only complaint was that it was difficult to get her out on a regular basis. Sometimes we went 10 weeks between trims. That was probably more due to us being located in the Phoenix area. It might be easier to get her out if you live in her town.

She has some lovely Aussie dogs that she brought with her once.


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## gottatrot

I was planning to trim hooves yesterday but a decent storm rolled in. We are having so-called "king tides" this week along with two storms, so things are pretty dramatic.

I was asleep during the very high tide a couple hours ago, but now the river is flowing out toward the ocean at about ten times the normal speed (can see it out the living room windows). It looks like it would be fun to sit in a kayak and fly but of course that would be highly dangerous. There are some birds sitting and floating down though.

So yesterday at the barn it was pushing a wheelbarrow through 50 mph gusts, and sometimes the poop was blown right off my rake. It was only sprinkling when I arrived, so I took the horses out from where they were hiding in their shelters and down the road to the outdoor arena. 

Hero ran a little and rolled, but before I came back the sheeting rain had started. When I came back, the horses were both in that storm position that looks like laminitis: backs to the wind, heads down and leaning. Amore looked like she would fall over if the wind suddenly stopped. They were happy to dive back under their shelter to eat hay. Of course they were dry under their sheets but they hate getting their faces wet. I told them other horses in the neighborhood were in fields with no shelter and no rain sheets either.

At home the cats and dog were stretched out on fuzzy blankets on the couch. Kikko, who was a barn cat for ten years seems to stay near the heaters when he hears rain outside. 

On our last trip north a week ago we stopped to check on a cat in the road. It was dead, of course, a beautiful orange boy. I always get mad when people let cats run near highways. It seems to me you might as well let your five year old play next to the highway or in the woods alone. 80% of the barn cats I was around died within several years. Most at my last barn were killed by coyotes. The only reason our Kikko made it before we adopted him was because he stayed near his hole in the loft and never went outside.

I guess it's like we were saying about horses, with dogs and cats we make compromises since we can't keep them in the most ideal way. But I prefer the compromises don't include an early, preventable death.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> On our last trip north a week ago we stopped to check on a cat in the road. It was dead, of course, a beautiful orange boy. I always get mad when people let cats run near highways. It seems to me you might as well let your five year old play next to the highway or in the woods alone.


Husband and I were driving down a pretty busy country road in northern Ohio. It was one of those roads that, while still rural suburbs, was right off the highway and very busy. I saw a little boy no more than 3 or 4 years old playing on the side of his house (no fence) less than 15 feet from the road, and no parent in sight. I was completely shocked. I mean, maybe the parent was there and I just didn't see them. But even if I was standing close by, I would not allow my child, while at such a tender age, to play so close to a busy road and no barrier between them.


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## SueC

I imagine the road toll was much lower in the time of the horse and carriage...

Looks like you've had the same kind of weather over in Oregon as we had here last weekend! 💨 💦 🌊 ⛈


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## AbbySmith

gottatrot said:


> I spent many years horseless as a child and teen, while still being obsessed with horses. Many times I heard that the only way I could learn about horses and riding was to be around them and riding them for enough hours. But I could not accept that, since my only chances to be with horses were not on a daily or even weekly basis. So I read and read, and studied concepts about horses, riding and training. Since I understood the concepts, it was much easier for me to learn quickly each time I was able to get the hands on experience.
> Many of the things that have helped my riding the most are concepts, such as when I read from George Morris, "Your security is in your lower leg." Or the concept of a fast release.


Hey, so I know you posted this five years ago, but I just read this, and had to comment on it!
This is literally my story. I am 17 and unable to get a horse, so many people have told that the only way to really know how to ride, is to grow up on a horses back. I had never even ridden a horse until I was 14, and I only got lessons last Sep. to Dec. due to Covid, I have had to stop. Thank you for this post! I have been reading ever single horse book I can get my hands on, and listening to anything anyone has to say about horses. Thank you for helping me realize that I am not the only one in this position. You have given me a lot of hope for the future! I _will _have a horse one day, no matter what happens. Thank you again for everything you have posted, your stories are amazing!! 😊😁
​


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## knightrider

Hey, so I know you posted this five years ago, but I just read this, and had to comment on it!
This is literally my story. I am 17 and unable to get a horse, so many people have told that the only way to really know how to ride, is to grow up on a horses back. I had never even ridden a horse until I was 14, and I only got lessons last Sep. to Dec. due to Covid, I have had to stop. Thank you for this post! I have been reading ever single horse book I can get my hands on, and listening to anything anyone has to say about horses. Thank you for helping me realize that I am not the only one in this position. You have given me a lot of hope for the future! I _will _have a horse one day, no matter what happens. Thank you again for everything you have posted, your stories are amazing!! 😊😁

This is so true! All the best to you, @AbbySmith! I hope you can make your dreams come true. When I was a little kid, I wanted a horse so badly, and nobody understood or believed me. I remember trying so hard in school because I knew if I didn't get good enough grades, I wouldn't have a good enough job to afford a horse. My whole life was geared towards someday having a horse.

And ha ha! My kids both grew up riding horses. I started my son riding at 14 months and my daughter at 9 months. They both are beautiful riders . . . and they really don't care about riding. My son got his first horse at age 4 and my daughter got hers at age 3. They rode their horses like champions under they got older, but now, not very interested. We did have a lot of good times and happy memories, and I need to be content with that. My granddaughter is 3 and is wild about riding. Maybe it just skipped a generation? Time will tell.


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## AbbySmith

knightrider said:


> This is so true! All the best to you, @AbbySmith! I hope you can make your dreams come true. When I was a little kid, I wanted a horse so badly, and nobody understood or believed me. I remember trying so hard in school because I knew if I didn't get good enough grades, I wouldn't have a good enough job to afford a horse. My whole life was geared towards someday having a horse.


Oh my gosh! Thank you! That is totally me! My real dream is to own and run my own horse training/boarding/riding stable, but I don't think I can do that full time right away. I am taking a grade 12 Science, and English, and I am a grade ahead in Math, so I am taking grade 12 math this year, and will take another math course next year. Should get me into whatever I want. But that's the problem. I have no idea what I want to do if it's not with horses! I can't go to school and get a bachelor degree in horses! I wish I could though. Maybe I could open a school ...? LOL! So not gonna happen!
Anyhow, I totally understand when you said "nobody understood or believed me." My mom says she knows how much I want my own horse, but I don't think anyone can understand how much I want it, unless they have gone through it like you, and @gottatrot. Okay, sorry, don't want to make this thread all about me! I will go start my own! LOL! Sorry @gottatrot!😊


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## Knave

@AbbySmith, I’m not sure if they would be hard to get into, but some schools have colt starting programs. A girl I know is at a school where she spends most of her time starting colts and learning to market them. She was handy before she graduated, but I’m wondering if that is even a requirement at a school. You could look into it.

In my world most people grow up on horses, but I’m always surprised at how quickly a motivated young adult can become successful on a horse. They don’t have to unlearn little kid bad habits and they are usually very motivated.


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## AbbySmith

Knave said:


> @AbbySmith, I’m not sure if they would be hard to get into, but some schools have colt starting programs. A girl I know is at a school where she spends most of her time starting colts and learning to market them. She was handy before she graduated, but I’m wondering if that is even a requirement at a school. You could look into it.
> 
> In my world most people grow up on horses, but I’m always surprised at how quickly a motivated young adult can become successful on a horse. They don’t have to unlearn little kid bad habits and they are usually very motivated.


Hmm... I have no idea if they have a school like that here, I live in a pretty small town, so we don't have a lot of things like that, but I will look into it! Thank you! I really appreciate it! I am volunteering at an animal rescue, and I get to work with horses there, but they rehabilitate older horses, they don't start new colts. That sounds like a lot of fun! 😃


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## bsms

I took a aptitude test in high school. In essence, it concluded I wanted to be born independently wealthy so I could play all day and never work. Accurate enough about my interests but not much help in determining a career! Seems I was switched at birth and the whole "independently wealthy" thing wasn't an option with my switched parents....

For horses: A job that supplies the money for having horses may be a better option than a horse related job. Most horse related jobs are hard physical work and don't pay much. My farrier, for example, rides during hunting season. A previous farrier had his back broken by a horse. Many vets never see a horse, and very few have them as a main way of making a living.

A friend of mine has a ranch. His kids estimated he rode his favorite stallion at least 25,000 miles before the stallion died. They guess 60,000 plus miles during his life. But while he appreciates a good horse, he's long since decided he'd be content to never toss a leg over one again. The reality of riding every day regardless of weather using whatever horse is available at the time from before sunrise until sunset takes some of the fun out of it. I'm sure it would for me as well. And when he rode, he was concentrating on sheep, cattle, fences - not horses!


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## AbbySmith

@bsms, makes sense. I totally realize that I can probably never make a full time job out of anything to do with horses, but hopefully I can still own a stable, or at least teach lessons, and help other kids like me, who can't have their own horse, still be able to ride. I also took a career test thing this year, and a lot of the options for me were like construction, and desk jobs. Neither of which I want, the one option was an agriculture machine operator. Sounds... interesting? I am just not interested in anything else, besides horses and farming. It sucks, because I am supposed to come up with a school plan, and what I am going to do with my future-type-thing for high school this year, and yeah... not going so well!


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## gottatrot

I wanted to do something with horses too, but my parents were against it. It was tough because I couldn't see how to afford horses while doing things with horses, when I did not have formal experience.

I just worked a couple years while trying to decide before going to college. Nursing was a job with good pay and flexible hours, with only a three year schooling commitment at the time. So I decided to see if I liked it. I could tell right away it was interesting to my scientific side. Plus as soon as I finished school I had a good income and was ready to get my own horse. 

I'll always sympathize with those who love horses but don't have their own. When I was horseless, it seemed very difficult to find opportunities to ride. When I took lessons, I always wanted to keep the horse I rode. 

Thankfully, I've been able to let a number of people ride my horses (mostly Amore), and that has made me feel great. I am going to prioritize that my next horse after Amore is one others can also ride.


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## gottatrot

Good old Murphy's law. Remember how I said the Scoot boots were great? 

I turned out Hero with the boots on. Just because we have the long walk on gravel to get to the fields. 

Well, it was wet and slippy. Hero was full of beans because it had been storming and judging from the poop distribution, the horses had mainly stayed under their shelter.

When we went down to the field, Smoky did not see us coming at first. Hero noticed this, and he got all excited. "He doesn't see us. Oh boy, wait until he sees us." 

Hero hopped up and down on the lead. Then Smoky spotted us and came running and farting all freaked out excited. Hero had known he would do that, so he reared and leaped and pawed. 

After a moment, both horses settled and I got them turned out. Hero ran a little, slipped but then he and Amore started grazing.

When I came back an hour later, Hero stood at the fence and...no boots. I searched the field high and low, found one but could not find the other. I will have to do another serious hunt another day.
The boots were just no match for the wet and lumpy field, along with Hero's shenanigans.


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## bsms

Sorry to hear that. Bandit's Renegades still have some life left in them. May try the Scoots someday. Lots of boot would have a tough time with THAT challenge.


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## egrogan

People swear by the mud straps on the Scoots. I have not needed them but it might be something to consider


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## Hondo

The top strap can be ordered in various colors. Might help in finding them. Gotta wonder if they were at least a little loose. Might need that thin pad to firm them up a bit. Maybe try taking them off without loosening the toe straps. If you can, they are too loose for certain. 'Course a horse can take them off where you could not.


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## gottatrot

We are having two days with no rain, sunny in the 50s. Of course when I went to the barn I discovered Hero had a gash on his upper front leg. Not too deep but a couple inches long so we can't go riding. Oh well.

I conscripted DH into canvassing the turnout pasture to look for the lost Scoot boot. It took some grid walking but I finally found it in a puddle of water. Phew. The pastern strap had gone flying and was lying separately.

DH joked that his shoes came off three times while we were looking. Not really, but it there was a lot of suction just walking around. I acknowledged it was not brilliant to turn Hero out there with his new boots on. I really think it wasn't a fitting issue. 😁😁


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## Hondo

If I were to anticipate riding in deep sticky mud, I'd get a pair of those mud straps. More fiddling for installation, but worth the fiddling compared to loosing a boot.


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## Hondo

Where's the edit button? I've had a life long struggle with loose verses lose. If I think about it, I'm ok. But when running on sub-conscious, not so ok.


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## gottatrot

Well @Hondo, I really think Hero loosed them rather than lost them. Ha ha.


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## egrogan

Hondo said:


> Where's the edit button? I've had a life long struggle with loose verses lose. If I think about it, I'm ok. But when running on sub-conscious, not so ok.


I distinctly remember in 4th grade, the week those two words were on our spelling test (teacher read the words aloud in a sentence, you spelled the specific word on your paper), it ruined my streak of perfect spelling scores 😉 I still mix them up.


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## Knave

I have to think about it too! I’m glad the husband helped you look. Mud isn’t something often of issue around here.


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## gottatrot

Just saw a funny video my friend posted on FB. 

Rider cantering along on a horse, with a view of the head and neck. 
Next, the view slides off to the side so you assume the rider is falling off the horse.
But a moment later, you see the rider on the horse from a very low angle, riding away because she's dropped her phone.

I've often worried that would happen to me, which is why I don't get much action video from my phone!


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## Knave

I lose my phone enough without bringing it out during the action! Sometimes I wish I would pull it out when everything is getting wild cowboying, but I might get shot for not doing my job, and I’m sure I would lose the phone if I tried both.

Little girl lost hers loping around the pivot the other day and found it with a crow (we say crow, but they are ravens, we don’t have the real bird called crow)! There is a crow out there who rides with us. He flies along right beside or above us and talks to us. I feel like a Mongolian cowboy! I keep trying to convince him to land on my arm, but he never will. He was who went to the phone when she lost it I believe.

I hope to remember one day to bring out something he might want to eat... maybe some meat scraps or something along those lines...


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## gottatrot

Hero's leg was very swollen yesterday. I am not too worried because horses' legs always seem to swell dramatically after a cut. The wound looked closed up and clean, and he was only mildly favoring the leg. It seemed more about the loss of movement from the swelling. I did some cold hosing.

Nala's rider has sold Nickel and now has a 5 yr old Mustang. He looks sturdy and sounds mellow. Her SO can ride him. I did like Nickel a lot but doubt he will be sound into old age.

Today I was thinking about how I don't want to own a TB again. Hero is a special case and I don't regret keeping him. But I was thinking of the many horses my close friends have had. 

What you end up with 90% of the time (in my experience) is a horse only suitable for light riding, or retired young. If the horse can be ridden, most often they also need a fairly experienced rider. 

I love TBs. But I was thinking that out of 12 examples I have known, horses that retired from racing sound and ended up in suitable homes, only Nala has been able to manage serious riding.

Nickel was out for injuries a couple times in a year, and he is not built to hold up. 
My friend who used to ride Amore was keeping her TB pastured, he had retired lame at 20. 

Other friends took on four different OTTBs that were given to them because they were "too much" for the owners to handle. In every case they developed physical issues. Two had to be put down in their early teens. The other two founds homes as pasture pet and occasional light ride.

Another friend bought two OTTBs that were retired because they didn't like to run. One was permanently lame by 12, the other was able to be ridden walk/trot. His hooves were very bad and he would get sore if ridden more than two days a week on soft footing.

One last friend kept asking for an experienced person to ride her TB. When I rode him it took three rides to tell her he needed to be retired. He had a terrible back, badly arthritic knee and sidebone. He was 17.

I'm putting this down as a reminder to myself that I do not want another TB. A TB crossed with a hardy breed might be fine. But I do not want a fragile horse, or one that is mostly a physical wreck. Any horse can have problems, but with TBs you are betting against steep odds.


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## Knave

This is good to know. I will avoid them.


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## bsms

It is a pity that people feel justified in breeding a horse so specifically for a sport that it harms their longevity. Be it racing, WP, halter shows. We do it with dogs too and it doesn't make humans look very admirable. IIRC, thoroughbred racing once much longer distances with multiple heats. Wiki says in America it was normally 4 miles, run twice, until after the Civil War. That required better breeding.


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## gottatrot

Yes, it is the same with dogs and some other horse breeds, unfortunately.
Friesians are riddled with genetic problems, and so are Tennessee Walking horses. A hardy, well built TB is an incredible horse though.

I did a big project last night, dissecting some old Renegades for good cables to replace frayed and broken cables. I had left the newer boots at the barn frequently, which meant some of the screws were rusted. So I had to cut cables to get them out and replace them.

But I ended up with all four Renegade vipers in working order again. So I can try the Scoot boots on front or back, swap boots around and see which work best.
This is the kind of thing that gets done when your horse has an injury. 😁


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## SueC

Just so you can add another TB case to your list - the only one in my circle: Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, set a sprint track record in Queensland, and my friend picked him up as a rescue in Western Australia when he was 6-ish if I remember correctly - dropped soles from bouts of laminitis, skinny as a toast rack. She just liked the horse's disposition and tried to rehabilitate him. She rode him until he was 17, so they had a good 10 years together, but his laminitis episodes recurred and got worse, and he was put down at 17 because it was never going to get any better, and he wasn't even paddock sound without shoes or boots on, so it was a quality of life decision.

If the horse had never gone through the racing regime, I doubt he would have had troubles with his hooves. The best kinds of TBs to adopt seem to be ones that never raced - nearly all of them that have been through that seem to carry significant damage somewhere.

This was a beautiful, athletic, kind, affectionate horse - he was the TB equivalent of our STB Romeo, both in athleticism and in disposition. Romeo didn't have laminitis, but his hooves weren't the best from the battery-chicken management of many racehorses, and being pushed too hard, too young as the expensive half-brother of an Interdominion horse. For comparison, he was ridden into his late 20s, was sound all his life, and died at age 34.

Rikki-Tikki was over 16hh and very well put together...




























...and one time I got to ride him in the harbour:










He was a lovely boy, and I still miss him. I want to make all the people involved in horse racing chase each other around tracks with whips and leave the horses alone - don't even breed them, except a few for general-purpose riding, because there are horses with some wonderful genetics both in TBs and STBs, and they really are performance horses, and often vastly superior to many riding breeds as all-round horses, for riders who like a bit of fire and a horse that moves freely and with purpose. I've ridden STBs and Arabians most of my life because of that, and though I started on WBs etc, once I rode my first European Trotter, I was hooked on those sorts of horses...

I would imagine that horses being ridden hard at a young age like TBs are is even more damaging than them having to pull carts at race speed when immature, and that may account for a lot of the problems OTTBs seem to have compared to OTSTBs. Those mostly get arthritic early, but if you adopt one that's been lightly raced, or not raced before they were 4, or given up after trials, you seem to have a good chance of riding them usefully into their 20s.


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## gottatrot

So true, @SueC. Rikki-Tikki was a gorgeous boy. You were lucky to get to ride him.

Hero's leg looked much less swollen today. The cut is healing, but movement today forced a little yellow ooze out from under the scab, so I sprayed it with some topical antibiotic. It's hard to call this a positive, but Hero stands and does not blink an eye at wounds getting washed, sprayed or picked at. One thing he has lots of experience with, judging by some serious scars, are wounds and their treatment.

It seemed like he may have been babying the leg, but today figured out it doesn't really hurt. 
When I walked the horses out to the turnout field, there were THREE geldings out, a fact Hero celebrated by standing tall on his hind legs three times.

This horse has desensitized me. While I was looking at the view of his underbelly, waiting for him to come down, I was remembering that I used to think horses rearing on the lead was a scary and dangerous thing. But Hero really is no threat, he is not trying to break away (a friend's horse would rear to pull the lead from you and bolt off). He doesn't flail hooves at people and always maintains his space, coming down politely and not on your toes. Amore just watches him too.

Once turned out, he tried so hard to get the geldings across the fence to play fight. He pushed his nose at them, flipped his head and squished his face against theirs, breathing deeply. They were far too polite to use teeth, and merely nuzzled him back between squeals. He trotted and cantered around the field, throwing in some bucks for good measure.

I was watching a Saddle Club episode yesterday (DH teases me but it's a good show lol). A woman was leading a high-headed horse at the trot, and it made me realize something. Looking at her position, I realized that when I was run over a while back by Hero, I was actually under his chin and in front of his chest. Watching this horse I saw how I had gone into Hero's blind spot. He couldn't see me, and probably when he spooked he momentarily forgot I was there. That is a safety lesson I am not going to forget. I once saw a Friesian forget she had a handler under her nose, so it's something I should have realized.

At work they asked if any of us want to get the covid vaccine next month. Everyone wants everyone else to try it first. Me too.


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## bsms

It seems like I was vaccinated for just about everything while in the military. Anthax? Yep. Thought it was silly but I got the full treatment. Actually, more than the full treatment. They started the series, then stopped me early, then a couple of years later insisted I get the full series from the start. Had a weird pencil shaped lump in my arm for 3 months but other than that....

My lifestyle means I'm pretty low risk for COVID so I doubt I'll be offered the vaccine(s) any time soon. But I'll take one when offered. I have far more confidence in them than in many of the things the government has promoted. I also like that it will protect ME. Or not. But if I take a vaccine and someone else chooses not to, I should still be protected. My risk. My benefit.

Bandit likes to rear in the corral but has never tried it while being led. I use Red Kote on all his cuts and wounds and it seems to work great. I've been known to use it on me but my former RN wife gets upset when I do...

Trooper is now shod in front. Don't know if it will help. May try Red Kote on the crack. Need to buy them some wormer and will look for thrush medicine when I do.


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## gottatrot

I'd say 99% of those I work with are happy to take vaccines. We all have to get a full complement to enter the health care profession. Most of us stay up to date.
The one exception is the flu shot, which probably 10% don't like to get for various reasons.

Theoretically, it is super harmless with major benefits. Anecdotally, it seems to cause issues for some people far worse than the benefits. I'm not meaning theoretical things like paranoia about additives. Some seem to have a period where the shot is working on the immune system and something else gets them really sick, perhaps while the system is busy developing the flu immunity. Not everything is better than getting the flu, such as shingles or pneumonia.

But the reason my coworkers don't want the covid vaccine yet is because of the short period of time for clinical trials. We just found out this year that Glucophage was pulled for causing cancer. Wow, we gave that drug to so many people. At one time I remember you'd be hard pressed to find a diabetic that wasn't on it. When drug companies say "safe," they mean most people won't drop dead immediately. This vaccine will be given to millions of people. I'd like to know more studies were done before taking it. I'd like to think a drug company about to make billions of dollars on a vaccine has altruistim as their main motivation. But....seen too many movies. Times of stress and pressure can cause justification for what would otherwise be unethical.

Nurses and doctors I work with also would like to know more before putting their own health on the line.


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## Knave

I’m with you Gotta. I don’t want to take it unless I see it in action for a long period of time. It was so rushed. Maybe if I was more scared of Covid I would want it. I did get a flu vaccine this year because of how sick little girl and I got last winter. I’ve never been so sick from a bug!

I wasn’t in Cashman’s blind spot when he ran me over. He was simply thinking about what was behind him. He’s such a brute that he is the type to believe he can run into other horses or through brush or whatever is in his way if he is truly scared. I did notice though that he spooked the other day and jumped towards me and then pulled away from running me over. That made me happy.

Speaking of him being a brute, I did put him in with Queen today. She was thinking she was such hot stuff that I figured he needed to teach her a lesson. I chose him over Lucy because I figured Lucy would have zero patience with her queenliness and Cashman was half tolerant (only half, which made me happy to see. He had his limits.). I also didn’t want Lucy to get attached and then refuse to let any other horse scold her when the time comes for her to join their corral.


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## gottatrot

That is a good idea to have a really big horse teach Queen some manners. 

Some horses are more tolerant and willing to set limits with other horses without gashing their skin open or breaking bones.


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## gottatrot

I saw three beavers running across the horse pasture today, toward the river. A bigger one followed by two small ones. Very cute.

The field next to my horses normally has one horse. Recently they swapped fields and put two horses in it. The barn owner forgot to check the water today, and when I walked by I saw the trough was empty and the two goldfish lying on their sides in the shallow mud at the bottom. Call 911! 
I rushed to grab the hose and amazingly, the fish started swimming again. The horses came rushing over to drink too.

I'm sure it is the same with everyone, but I look around and notice that my horses have shinier coats and a perky, energetic look compared to the other horses around. I attribute it to a better diet.

It occurred to me a few days ago that the reason my horses are in rope halters is because my past barn owner did not like buckled halters. I'm the only one handling my horses now, so I pulled out and conditioned halters for them. I've always liked leather halters. TBs just look right in them.

The skin flap came off of Hero's leg wound today, which made it look a little bigger. But it is pink and healing great. I sprayed it with vetericyn in case.

A couple days ago I sat on Hero and let him walk where he willed in the arena. That sat OK with my conscience - it didn't seem like riding an injured horse. It was a misty afternoon at the barn.


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## Knave

It looks like you are doing a great job healing it up. I don’t think sitting on a horse counts as riding it either... oh so funny, when Cash was lame again (I thought stone bruise and poulticed, but really he might just have had remainder twisted ankle...) I was doing the same thing in the little corral where he was sharing with Queen. He doesn’t care about me climbing on him in a corral, and so I climbed up the fence and slipped onto him. Apparently he did not see my plans and I scared the crap out of him! Lol. I guess it’s like when someone spooks you walking up and touching you... so he jumped and flew around. I grabbed the fence (terrible choice, but it was fine). Hahahahaha. He looked back at me like wth?!!

I can’t imagine the beavers! How cute!


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## bsms

Looks like Hero is healing nicely. Bandit seems to get wounds like that at least once/year but so far he has healed nicely. I've ridden him lightly while there was still a leg wound. And he never seemed to care. Once his limp is gone, he's ready to go. But I wouldn't want the neighbors to see me riding him like that. Bandit isn't bothered but they would be,


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## gottatrot

Need to vent a little here.

Went up north yesterday to meet with a realtor to sell our house and heard the horse news.

It was sad, a horse I used to ride named Pinky was put down shortly after we moved. Something neurological they suspected was EPM but very severe so they put her down before test results came back.

Vent: 
I had heard Nala's rider sold Nickel so she could get the more beginner suitable mustang she bought. 

Now I know I live in a fantasy world sometimes, and if I hadn't taken Hero he would have gone somewhere unsuitable. Most likely if a ride went OK, my friend would have "hoped for the best" and passed him on to anyone who liked him. 

I am just very morally opposed to that kind of thing.

Nickel is very well trained in jumping and third level dressage in the arena. I think if someone wanted an arena horse and was told he can get hot outside, that would be fine.

But he ended up at my old barn with a rider over 60 who was "a good rider" in her 20s but hasn't ridden in many years. Who wanted a horse to ride on trails and the beach.

The barn owner recommended the new owner go on the beach for a ride on Nickel with Nala rather than decide to buy after an arena ride. But he showed up at the barn alone in the trailer, and he'd already been purchased.

I like Nickel a lot. I am a very strong rider and in the open I have opened my bag of tricks to remain in control with him. He is a 17 hand TB off the track, and he gets excited sometimes. If another horse runs off, it is tricky because he will rear, hop and spin if you don't let him flat out run. 

This sounds like an unsuitable match to me. 
Anyway, a couple weeks ago the rider took Nickel out alone to the beach. They never got there. He did something on the asphalt downhill leading to the beach, slipped and went down on the rider. He has super long legs like he is on stilts, and requires help balancing at times. The new owner had fractured ribs, sternum, ruptured spleen, broken femur. 
I wonder what will happen with Nickel now.


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## Knave

That is a terrible story! I am sorry. I am morally opposed to that as well. I probably go much too far in the opposite direction selling a horse and list every thing I dislike about the horse and tell them if I think they could ride it or not. I don’t think we should believe ourselves superior to others, so if they want a horse I think they can’t ride more power to them, but I will definitely lay it out a hundred times. Lol

I see those posts on Facebook. I know they are so full of it about certain horses, and it just makes me crawl. I get a lot of people are okay with selling a horse that way, but it totally makes me lose respect for someone. Don’t lie!

I hope the man comes out of it healthy enough.


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## egrogan

What an awful story about Nickel and the new rider. I think we can all probably guess what happens to a "dangerous" horse who "unexpectedly" hurts a "good" rider.

I've never sold a horse, and I probably won't. But as a rider/buyer, I was so, so careful to be really clear about my perceptions of my riding abilities, or lack thereof. I think I remember some people on here even telling me not to sell myself short, but I know that nervous pit in my stomach when I feel out of control, and even if it doesn't show up in pictures or in a way people can see outwardly, I still know it's there. Having an appropriate horse (particularly from the temperament perspective) is the first and best step to not putting myself in a position I can't handle on a horse I have no business on. I don't get the inclination of people to overestimate their abilities or comfort level. There are so many nice horses out there, of all types and training levels, that if you give yourself time and an appropriate budget, there's no reason to get the wrong horse.

Anyway, sorry that you got less than ideal news about two horses you like...


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## Knave

@egrogan I’ve sold very few myself. We’ve joked about me starting and selling a few horses, but the joke is that we’ll just own any worth selling forever. I think the only reason we were able to sell Moon was because she needed a small kid. Zeus is supposed to be for sale, but unless we get offered enough money we will buy him ourselves from the little girl.

I’ve personally given away Keno and I traded two different horses. I gave away three horses because I wanted them to be in a more fitting home. Two were mares with injuries I gave as broodmares, and honestly I wish I hadn’t because although I thought I was doing them a favor I wasn’t. The other I am glad for, he had ringbone and I gave him away as a kid’s horse. They had lots of adventures.

So really I am not one to say I’ve sold horses much. Lol


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## bsms

Couldn't "like" that post, gottatrot! It is one of those horrible stories that makes one wonder what is wrong with us humans. I'm sure I have moral blind spots that others see and I do not, but horses are tough to buy and harder to sell since they are living, breathing, FEELING beings who far too often are treated like cars.


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## SueC

OMG, people!  Poor Nickel.



egrogan said:


> What an awful story about Nickel and the new rider. I think we can all probably guess what happens to a "dangerous" horse who "unexpectedly" hurts a "good" rider.


Indeed...

About 20 years ago, I saddle trained Sunsmart's dam so she could be re-homed as a riding horse. She was a lovely, super-affectionate, kind horse who was wilting in the paddock post-retirement and post-breeding, but she was still a young horse, at age 10, and totally sound. It's not like she had a free-range retirement; she was locked in a sand yard during the day with one other horse for company and no grazing, and stabled at night (which my father thinks is such a huge indicator of quality of life for horses, but of course, horses didn't evolve for an indoors lifestyle, let alone 16 hours a day of it, and it creates a lot of problems for them - if you don't want them to get wet, you can rug them instead of lock them up - way more important for their physical and mental health is that they can socialise freely, trickle graze - which makes them walk around too, and get to explore the world and have fun adventures as much as we can arrange for them in the modern world).

Anyway, I was visiting one summer and took pity on the mare, who I didn't think should face another 15 years plus of boredom and enforced sedentary life like this, so I saddle trained her and, with permission, looked for a good home for her. She wasn't the type to make a show horse or endurance horse; she loved children, and people in general, and was a total sweetheart with a disposition like a Golden Labrador - she just wanted to hang out with people and snuggle all the time. If you rode her in her "home paddock" or arena, she was super-reliable and took care of the rider; she was also fun to jump on.

But one thing she hated was being away from other horses - out of sight of her friends. That summer I rode her in various places including around the fast track that was on the other side of a bit of forest from the horse paddocks, and whenever we went there, she neighed incessantly and pawed and worried and sweated. She wanted to run back etc and there's no way a beginner rider could handle that kind of scenario, they don't have the bag of tricks and confidence you need for those situations - they'd end up falling off, or finding themselves on top of a horse bolting for home. I persisted with her, since consistent work on problems like that often gets horses desensitised to whatever bogeyman they dread. But in the three weeks I had to work on that with her, she didn't improve at all in that aspect - and I was positive and encouraging with her, and would do a lap on the distant track, and return to do a lap around the horse paddocks where she was happy, rinse and repeat to try to show her it wasn't going to kill her, and I'd be talking to her, singing in her ear etc etc. On the distant track she'd do what I asked, but unhappily, and was a bundle of anxiety whenever she was out of sight of other horses, and that didn't improve even a tiny bit in three weeks.

In short, not a horse with a disposition to work independently, to take on a trail on her own, etc. She was fine ridden out in the company of another horse, but on her own she just went into a tailspin of anxiety - I've never seen another horse that bad with separation anxiety. And I kind of think I know why she was extreme like that - because a few years before that, after Sunsmart had been weaned, a friend of my father's wanted to borrow the mare to breed a foal, and my father agreed, so this person (with no horse sense apparently) picked her up in a trailer, and dumped the now-pregnant mare in a huge cow paddock in the middle of nowhere, with no other horses, a distant herd of cattle and barbed wire at the perimeters.

This mare had never been to a place like this - she only knew home, and the racetrack - and all her paddock perimeters had been visible; either wood, or electric tape. The person who borrowed her said she took a look around, panicked, and went galloping off into the distance - straight into a barbed wire fence, which she had to be cut out of. After doing that, he put the in-shock, foaming, bleeding mare back on his trailer, and returned her to my father, who called the veterinarian to have her many lacerations stitched up. (The man said, "I can't understand it. I had such a nice paddock for her with grass and all that space." ) Within hours of all this, she miscarried her foal.

So I think that trauma was too severe for her to ever properly recover from. As a young harness horse, she'd worked around the same fastwork track behind the woods that I was riding her on, and it hadn't worried her. She'd never particularly liked being separated from other horses because she was super-social, but she was fine to go out training away from the others.

So the sensible thing to do with a horse like this is to re-home it where it will only be used for working in the home paddock or arena, or trail rides with other horses - no solo work away from home - and to make that abundantly clear to the new owners / lessees. And I did find a really good place for her, with children who'd had a little formal instruction, and had a pony to keep her company. All these kids really wanted was a bigger horse to hug and brush and ride around the paddock bareback, and take over jumps - and all of that worked really well for them.

I don't know if she was sold or leased out, because those weren't my arrangements to make, but my father made visits to the mare for a while to make sure everything was still going well. Then years later we heard from someone who had rescued her from a sand paddock half starving, and who'd read her brand and traced us back through the breed register. It appears the original home had passed her on (when the children grew up or whatever) and she ended up in a deplorable state. The mother and young girl who rescued her had agisted her in a riding facility and fed her back up to normal weight. We visited them and the horse.

The mare was now in good shape again, in a nice facility with irrigated pasture and year-round grazing, with lots of other horses. There was an arena and a visiting instructor and trails nearby. The girl was completely green and only starting to take lessons on this mare. In this case, that was OK, because of the friendly disposition and steadiness of the horse as long as she was in a familiar environment with other horses. Lessons were going fine and the girl was learning to trot.

I impressed upon her and her mother that this mare absolutely could not be taken out of range of other horses; it would be dangerous with a beginner rider - so to make sure she always had a trail buddy, when she started going on trails.

But people are people, and don't take advice apparently. A few months after that, we got a phone call - they no longer wanted the mare, did we want her or should they have her put down? The mare was "dangerous" etc. We didn't discuss that on the phone, just agreed to pick her up. After she was on the trailer, I asked what had happened. Well, apparently, after being a picture perfect horse in the arena for months, the girl decided to take her a little way down a trail _all by herself_. And the mare went for about 500 metres, and then hit a blind panic, turned and bolted for home. (So predictable, and I'd explained all this to them on the first visit...) The girl had the fright of her life on the back of the bolting mare and then fell off her when she rapidly reduced her speed on getting back home. She never wanted to ride again - at least not such a "dangerous" horse.

I'm going to say what I'm thinking: Some people really are idiots. Just like those tourists taking selfies with the bisons at Yellowstone that we're discussing on another thread. They've been told repeatedly, but don't take a blind bit of notice. Is it ego, or is it sheer stupidity, or is it the basic perversity of having to do the _one_ thing you've been told you're not supposed to - like the apple in Eden? You tell me. 🤬

The girl looked at me wanting sympathy, and I told her, "I went through _all of this_ with you _in detail_ on our last visit. I told you that you could not take this mare away from other horses because this is precisely what would happen. I spelt it out to you exactly like this and told you that this mare needs a trail buddy to be safely taken out by a beginner rider." Ah, she said, she'd had lessons, she wasn't a beginner rider anymore. I snorted. "What, three months of arena lessons and you're not a beginner anymore? Can you transition her up and down from canter consistently in the arena? Have you jumped her? Have you been out on group trails? Have you taught her anything new?" She shook her head no to all these things. I told her, "So you're still a beginner rider. And an experienced rider would actually take notice when the person _who had trained their new horse_ told them about their horse's limitations, and impressed upon them things _not_ to do with them. If you're not prepared to take advice, stop riding horses and ride a bicycle - otherwise you're going to hurt yourself, and your horse. Whether you hurt you is your own choice. It's the horses I feel sorry for. And the really dangerous thing here isn't the horse, it's your attitude, which puts you and your horse in danger entirely by your own choice. If we'd not taken this mare home, you'd have had her _killed_ because you think she is dangerous because she did exactly what I told you she was going to do if you did the one thing that you should not do with this horse - do you think that's fair? I think _you're_ the one who's dangerous."

Within the limitations set, that mare was about as safe and friendly a horse as you're ever going to meet. She'd have seen the girl right through all her arena lessons and group trails, and made a lovely and affectionate first horse. But not solo riding. If the girl wanted to ride solo, she needed a different horse. On our first visit, she'd said she didn't want to ride in the bush on her own and was happy to ride in groups when she could ride well enough to leave the arena. 

This story does have a happy ending. The mare's THIRD re-homing didn't turn into a disaster. After my Arabian mare died in 2014, I offered the free spot to her so she could retire free-ranging, and with the only foal she ever had.

This was the mare in 1996 with Sunsmart:


And this was the two of them re-united, 20 years later:


You can see how good-natured she was in this photo - please excuse the colours, it was the last photo batch from a camera that died!


It seems to me that if you want a horse story with a happy ending, you need to create the ending yourself, most of the time. Of course, there's way more need than what can be remedied. I'm never going to be an animal hoarder on account of this - my maximum horse herd size is now reduced to three, from a previous four. It's what the land can sustainably handle, and what I can look after properly without losing quality of life - because I actually think there's many things that are as important in life, and even _more_ important too, than horses... 

Like, you know, couple time, hiking, books, music, making nice meals, looking after your home/garden/farm/nature reserve, friends, things like that!


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## gottatrot

The post about Sunsmart's dam put tears in my eyes. Especially the photos of her in the happy ending.

It is true we can't save them all. People do need to rehome horses sometimes. I appreciate @egrogan's efforts to find a very appropriate horse to buy. Also if a horse @Knave rehomed did not find a good place, it would not be for lack of trying.

It seems that if the Mustang, Bibi I helped sell for friends had someone answer her ad, then many horses would find suitable homes through honesty.
Of course there will be idiots who overestimate themselves.

But that ad stated Bibi was aggressive with other horses, needed firm handling on the ground or she would bite or kick, and she was pony-sized and unsuitable for kids.
She also had perfect hooves, was calm and brave, would go out alone and not spook, and steady under saddle.

The woman who bought her was small, middle-aged, wanted an only horse to live on her farm with other animals (but in her own field), and her last horse was a stallion with handling issues. We made her tack up and handle Bibi before riding, and she was able to make Bibi mind. That was the best we could do for her.

In my mind, just like with @suec and her warnings about riding alone, it is necessary to let a buyer know everything negative about the horse.

It is wrong of me, but I am glad this didn't happen to Hero. At least Nickel is sweet and kind to handle. He is the type of horse that helpfully lowers his head so you can reach it for bridling, without being asked. 

Today I told Hero, "I love you big pup," and he lipped my arm with real affection. If he leaves his teeth out it is love.


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## Knave

I have this feeling that any horse has a rider they would fit happily with. It is finding that fit that would be so hard to do.

It was why I considered selling or trading General long before he went lame and I gave him away to his boy. General was the horse of mine most people would have considered my best. He was perfectly cuey and a strong horse with a massive work ethic. To be completely honest though, as much as I appreciated him, I never really liked him. I knew so many would have considered him their dream horse, and so it was unfair that I kept him in a place where he would never be my perfect horse. I tried to love him, but I found him condescending and was often annoyed with that.

I have seen a couple of horses go from being disliked to truly loved. My grandpa tells a story about a team he hated. He found them lazy and he dreaded being around them. Lazy is probably something he would most detest. So, he sold the team to a wealthy rancher. This man went around telling everyone how amazing the team was. He loved them. They were steady and safe, and he was certain he had taken my grandfather in the deal. Grandpa laughs about it still. He just didn’t like the team.

I guess what I am getting at is that I think each horse, even Keno, has its place. I don’t like to think I would keep one around that I didn’t love because he would fit somewhere else. It is particularly hard though with those dangerous ones. Do you take the risk of rehoming them, or do you put them down?

The roan horse found a new home finally. He was truly a dangerous horse for my father. I think their personalities pushed each other to their worst, although they were a particularly talented team. The man who took him is a pretty big named trainer. He said, watching the horse blow up three times in the same day without a rider, just saddled, that he knows he couldn’t ride him if he blew up under him. The first jump he took made 30’ to slam into a fence. Yet, he is very happy with JP. He uses him every day and is grateful for his grit.


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## gottatrot

I agree with you @Knave about horses finding their right people and place. It has seemed to me that Amore, Halla and Hero all found me at the right time, and they all seemed to need the things that I could especially offer.

Only my friends who were very good riders wanted to give Halla a try. Even most of them thought she was too much work for a daily ride. She was bar none my favorite horse I've ever ridden. 

There are some horses I know I would not be happy riding all the time. I don't like horses that won't interact with you and tell you what they are feeling. Most horses are very open and even ones that are shut down from bad handling will soon open up. But some that are very calm and well behaved just have a personality where they don't communicate and I can't get along with a horse like that. If I ended up with one I would find him a new home if I thought it would work out OK.


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking about mustangs and how it is kind of strange where I live. Most of the mustang owners I've known have either been first time horse owners, or else not very advanced riders. 

I've only known one person who was a confident rider/handler when they got a mustang (other than @Knave).

I'm wondering if this is why some other horse people seem to think negatively about them - from stories they've heard.

Many I've known have this sort of romantic idea about mustangs. Like it is perhaps more special to own a "wild" horse, and it is a piece of vanishing history, or associated with the idea of nature, or the wild west, or rescuing a creature...maybe other ideals as well.

So what I've seen frequently is that the horse gets started by someone. The new owner either watches the process and gets frightened, or else somehow disassociates from the process and then expects the barely started horse to behave like a ten year old trail horse that was started at two.

Most of the mustangs I've known have been barely used because there is a lack of a plan by the new owner for the period of time between green broke and having a reliable, trained horse. The new owner does not have the skillset to work with a started but green horse, so falls off or gets stepped on, etc.

The smart ones will send the horse to a trainer for a much longer period, after the initial failure. Others will just think it is because they have a wild mustang and not use the horse.

I even saw an experienced trainer all shocked because a mustang bucked her off "hard." I asked her why she was surprised, the horse only had five rides or so. I told her I'd expect any horse that green might buck if startled. She stopped working with the horse.

Her experiences had been with training horses handled by humans prior to starting under saddle, which influenced her into thinking the mustang was unusual. Since I had trained both unhandled older horses as well as handled horses, I knew there is a big difference. Amore as a barely handled horse was wilder for the first several months than most mustangs are after two weeks of handling.

I also think people make training mustangs harder by starting inside barns and enclosed arenas. All the mustangs I've seen right off the range are calm outdoors or in large corrals, and very nervous inside. They have never been in caves before.

I also saw a mustang that went to the beach on his first week under saddle, and was super calm even when a helicopter landed nearby (which he'd seen on the range). Then he came unglued back home by the sight of a rider on a horse.

They have a set of experiences that involve outdoor wilderness, wild animals and such. They are basically the opposite of new OTTBs that have only civilization experience and none with raw nature.

I've seen green mustangs shy at a blanket but not even glance at a bolting deer. The TB will calmly stand while a jackhammer starts up, but run when a tree branch sways in the wind.
Just some thoughts I had...


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## bsms

Something I came across a long time ago & don't remember the book & may be fuddled on what was said, but....a guy who broke horses in the late 1800s preferred to break them on open range instead of in a corral because they bucked in a corral and ran in the open. He preferred running. Crow hopping during a run isn't really bucking, that it was the hard, "_I've got no options so I'm bucking for my life_" he wanted to avoid. I'm sure it would vary between horses too, but I can understand where a lot of horses would choose to run hard if able but would buck if trapped. When the flight or fight response doesn't have flight as an option....

Spooks: The one I found funniest was when Lilly was still very green broke. All her training had been scheduled around noon. So one evening - after she was well into green broke stage - I started riding her near sunset. She freaked out when she saw the SHADOW of me on top of her. Then spent a little while not leaping sideways, but twisting to stare at the shadow of me on top. And then she must have decided it was nothing to care about and never did it again. Sweet horse and I wish we had kept her instead of Trooper.

Trooper has always given an honest effort for his riders but even my youngest doesn't think of him as "sweet". Lilly had spunk but she was a very friendly Arabian mare. As long as you said Please and Thank You, she had that, "_Why, if that's what you want, lets try it!_" attitude. I prefer that to Trooper's "_I don't need a reason, I'll just do it_" approach.


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## Knave

I agree with you @bsms. Most anyone with any experience where I live wouldn’t ride a mustang. They don’t think anything past what the mismanagement does. The people who do buy them are so inexperienced that they struggle much more. They also would struggle with a handled colt.

Gotta, I know what you mean. I have only been around a couple, and I didn’t enjoy them. I didn’t ride them enough to really get to know them though. Cash maybe could come off like that, but he has a hidden sense of humor although he is quite naturally serious. He probably has enough overly serious behavior about him mixed with a few dry jokes that you might enjoy him too.


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## gottatrot

It has been interesting seeing pics of snow in other journals. Horses look so pretty in the snow. We've been in a period of mostly steady rain.

Hero's leg laceration is almost healed, so maybe next week the weather will clear a little so I can exercise him.

The horses have lost a little weight so they are a solid 5 bcs instead of 5+ so that is good. Sometimes in January we have a bit of sun and sudden grass growth - better to not go into that already fat. Colder nights have helped, although it has been above freezing. 

My animals don't know what cold is. Velvet the cat likes to live on human bellies even though we keep our house 70 degrees. 

I've just realized the days will begin getting longer again in just a few days. Yay.

I have blue colored mud and toe straps coming for my Scoot boots for Christmas.

Just got back from a two day trauma course in the city. Useful info about treating burns, frostbite, using tourniquets, good stuff. But the stories are the best part. Some are too graphic so I will have to remember not to launch into one at Christmas dinner.

But one I thought quite funny, not trauma related. A woman was in labor but not progressing much after getting an epidural. So the doc went home to get some sleep. The woman was trying to nap, and husband watching tv. Then husband and nurse begin to wonder why there is a sound of baby crying that doesn't correlate with the tv program. The nurse, who certainly must not be the brightest star in our profession goes out to check down the hall. Meanwhile husband pulls back the covers to see baby's head is out and he's crying. Lol. 

The sense of humor is a bit twisted...I thought this video funny too.


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## Knave

That is a happy thing that days will get longer! Thanks for the thought!

I bet the stories were great. I love those types of things.


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## gottatrot

We had about an inch of rain in the last 24 hrs, so there was a flood warning. Usually up north we'd have some big puddles on the roads but our new town is uphill slightly from the lakes and rivers, and on lots of sand, so it seems to drain better.

The horse property is mainly on a hill, so drains pretty well. But the turnout fields are down the hill, near a river. Today for the first time the turnout fields were flooded under.

Even Smoky had to come up to a field on the hill with a shelter. Normally he stays out due to heaves.

The outdoor arena was not flooded, just had a big puddle, so I put the horses out there for a bit.
My shelters had a minor issue with small puddles, so DH helped lift rubber mats so I could rake gravel under to create a downhill slope for drainage.

Usually I take the rainsheets off for turnout, but the horses would have gotten soaked so they stayed on.

There is a new horse that just moved from Utah, she was only purchased a month ago but she is very thin. I hope she doesn't have ulcers, because the barn owner said she has not been eating much hay. Also I hope she will be getting a rain sheet soon. She has a shelter, but today looked soaked through from grazing outside, at dark when the temperature was dropping and there was a pretty good wind too.

My riding friend with Mikey and Diamond the mule stopped by to offer to feed my horses Christmas day. She didn't realize the barn owner feeds for me. So nice of her to offer.


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## bsms

I don't like rain but we desperately need some here! Finally got a ride in on Bandit Saturday. Even the prickly pear & palo verde trees have turned yellow. The mesquite have dropped their leaves. The good news is I haven't needed to spray for weeds because even the weeds can't grow in this drought. Did an Internet search:

"_On average, Tucson receives 11.59” of rain at the Tucson International Airport which is where official readings are collected. So far, for 2020, we’ve only received 3.77” of rain. This leaves us over 6” below average up to this date. The deficit is likely to grow as we head into November under a stubborn dry weather pattern...This year, in Tucson, the monsoon only produced 1.62” of rain and became the 2nd driest monsoon on record. The only other year to record less rainfall during monsoon was in 1924 when only 1.59” of rain fell._" - Oct 30 ( Drought expands across the Southwest )

"_Drought in Arizona from 2000-2020 
The U.S. Drought Monitor started in 2000. Since 2000, the longest duration of drought (D1-D4) in Arizona lasted 512 weeks beginning on August 18, 2009 and ending on June 4, 2019. *The most intense period of drought occurred the week of December 1, 2020 where D4 affected 76.81% of Arizona land*._" ( Arizona | Drought.gov )

I can't find records but I'd guess we've had no more than 0.25 inches since October.


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## gottatrot

I can't imagine what it is like to have so little rainfall. It must be so easy to take care of hooves. Unless horses are stalled here, it is a matter of managing thrush, because every turned out horse will get it to some degree. What amazes me is that many people just leave the frogs all rotten and put shoes on. 

We get close to 80 inches of rain most years. Your monsoon this year was like one of our three day basic storms passing through! Hope you won't have issues there from lack of water.

I am working with a travel nurse from AZ. The other night I was explaining to her that water is cheap here, so she would not save money from her rental by taking quick showers or anything like that. I remember once someone from the desert was astounded at how we washed water buckets, or left the horse troughs overflowing for a while when doing other things. 

Somehow the nurse had not heard of sneaker waves yet either, so I tried to impress on her how many people get swept into the ocean in the winter here.


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## Knave

I have no idea what sneaker waves means either.

Maybe the girl from Utah is confused about the weather necessities there. Remember how we talked about it once, things different climates need? Here my horses have never worn a blanket. It will be -5F tonight. Something about the way it works is fine though. Now, I was talking to my friend who is today delivering a mare of hers to Arizona for the winter. She said the mare doesn’t handle our winters, even blanketed and supplemented, so obviously they don’t all do well.

Rarely is thrush a thing, we do have water woes. We are like @bsms with an average of 10”. This year has been awful for us too for moisture, but I don’t know what it’s at and couldn’t seem to find it.

I think that most horses thrive in my environment though, despite the extreme temperatures. It is probably why we are overrun with mustangs... Maybe horses though like my friend’s mare, a thin haired thoroughbred, are the offshoots.


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## gottatrot

Yes, drier and colder is definitely better for most horses. 

When it gets dry here in the winter, it almost always gets colder. Our wet fronts bring warmer temperatures, which is why we hardly ever get snow. 

When it gets dry, I take off the rain sheets, the horses' coats fluff out and they stay warm even if it is 20 degrees, which is an unusual temperature here. But I put the sheets on if it is 40 degrees if it is wet, because then the horses will get cold.

I'll tell you about sneaker waves, in case you ever visit the OR or WA coast. The ocean can be dangerous in the summer, but in the winter it is very deadly. People who grew up here know you never turn your back on the ocean. 

When you walk on the beach, maybe ten or twelve waves will come in to a certain spot. Then suddenly, a wave will come in as much as a block farther and you will have to run to avoid it if you were near the shoreline. 

Early this year there was a dad who went to the beach and was holding his kids in his arms, looking at the waves. A sneaker wave came up and knocked them into the ocean. Both kids drowned, one they never found. 

These things happen every year. Especially people will stand on a rock jutting into the ocean and a sneaker wave will knock them off. Dogs also get swept out a lot when people let them swim in the winter.


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## Knave

I will keep that in mind! I wish I knew more about beaches, but I can count my visits on my fingers. I’m not a particularly confident swimmer either... I can swim, and I enjoy it, but I don’t trust myself. I’ve only swam twice in the ocean. Once I was pulled way out and I thought I would drown. I’ve been kinda scared of the ocean since. Irrelevant for me though I know.


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## gottatrot

Well, I know a guy who is scared of sharks, but he never swims so it is irrelevant. 😁
A couple weeks ago, a surfer had his leg bitten by a shark up where I used to live. 
It spit him out when it tasted his wet suit, and his friends put on a tourniquet so he made it OK.

Hero's leg is finally healed enough so I put him on the lunge today to warm him up, then took him for a walk. He did great. 

I put the scoot boots on his hind hooves and he did some bucking, rearing and galloping, but they stayed put. I don't even have the mud straps yet.

Hero is just an enormously playful horse. He would have been excellent as a trick horse, but I don't want to teach him more goofy stuff. 

He thinks it is funny to turn in toward the middle sometimes on the lunge, and show me how high he can rear. I think he likes it because then I'll crack the whip. Then he'll trot along again.

DH was helping with the horses the other day and commented that it is really hard not to call him Rascal. I said, "I know, and that's why we don't call him that!"

So which came first...did he randomly get his track name and become a rascal? Or was he already such a naughty young horse? But his registered name IS good because Radiant Rascal is what he is. He's not a ruthless rascal, or a ruffian. He's very bright and joyful about being mischevious, and if he were human he'd laugh at his own jokes. 

Today he kept pulling on my coat when I was bent over picking his hooves. He thinks it is funny when I flail my arm back at him, and he always ducks in time. If I have anything in my pocket he grabs it out and throws it on the ground if I'm not careful.

The other day I had the two horses tied next to each other, and he kept grabbing Amore's lead rope under her chin and shaking it. This annoyed her, which he thought was funny so he did it more until I put a stop to it.

I've had horses paw when they were upset about waiting. Hero paws on occasion, not as a rule and not usually under stress. Instead, when he decides to paw it seems to be a form of self expression. He lifts and points and scrapes the ground and shakes the leg, then stomps it and points again. That's the problem with him, most of the time when I say, "No, stop it," I am laughing as the words come out.


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## Knave

Cash and Bones are that way too. I’m glad we only have two like that. They make me laugh, but it is like having two more jr high kids around. 😂

I don’t know where Hero would fall with them, somewhere in the middle I think. Zeus isn’t a hot horse, so his nonsense is thought out and calm funny. I guess the exception is his constant fighting. He’s playing, but he tears everyone up horrible! I’m about ready to isolate him, but I am reminded he is getting a bit better as he matures... Bones is hot and silly, but probably a bit hotter than Hero. He paws and self mutilates with anxiety. I feel like he’s pure emotion, and it goes in all directions. He’s happy and funny and upset and anxious... he’s all the emotions.

They both make me laugh. I guess the word I was trying to think of though is “tiring.” I am honestly enjoying Cash’s seriousness at work. He occasionally breaks through with a bit of dry funny or love, but mostly he is a hard shell doing his job. 😂 That is his personality.


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## SueC

Merry Christmas! 🎄💫

We smiled at the horse antics reported, and have a donkey antic to offer. 

This is Don Quixote. He's a bit of a naughty donkey. When anyone's feet are trimmed - horse or donkey - the donkeys will usually congregate around the manicuree in a show of interest and seeming moral support. But Don Quixote uses the occasion to make mischief. He will suddenly be pulling on the lead rope of the animal I am trimming - on the correct end too, so he's pulling on the head, not the tie-down. You can almost hear him thinking "Ha ha ha ha ha!!!" as he's doing it. We'll say, "Stop it! Stop tormenting your herd-mate!" and push him away, and when we're not looking, a couple of minutes later, he will have snuck in from the other side and be doing it again! 🥳

Sometimes he varies his routine by grabbing halters directly, and sometimes he finds other ways to annoy his friends... so sometimes we end up chasing him out of the paddock we're in. 😄


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## gottatrot

Ha ha ha Don Quixote is a rascal too. 
Merry Christmas!


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## gottatrot

I'm toodling around on the forum because I worked last night and just got up. 

Working Christmas is not bad, extra pay plus the best restaurant in town dropped off lunch boxes with excellent fish or prime rib, salad/veggies and huge pieces of cake. I gave my cake away because I normally don't eat a full meal in the middle of the night, but had to have some of the fish.

Sometimes on Christmas the doctors manage to clear out well, but we had many people too sick to leave. Not covid related. Many staff are now getting vaccinated with Moderna, the covid vaccine.

We were supposed to head north for a Christmas gathering today. However, my brother called yesterday to say his wife was around her sister last week, who was in a room with some people who ended up with covid. So we are putting Christmas off until Monday to make sure no one in their family gets sick. My sister in law said she would feel too guilty if my parents ended up in the hospital and she knew she exposed them.

The only problem is that I'm not great with plants and bought some african violets a couple days ago, thinking I'd be handing them off as presents today. Now I have to keep them alive until Monday.

Our quality of life has gone up a lot in our new town, so we are enjoying Christmas. A couple nights ago we went to the tiny downtown area to walk around. There was a big light display along the river, a lit up santa that changed so it looked like he was catching a fish. Live violin music you could hear everywhere. The bookstore was open so we went in and bought some books.

We bought these glasses that make the Christmas lights look like snowmen or reindeer, and laughed as we walked around. I can't wait to show them to the nieces and nephew. 

Daily shopping here is simple without congestion. You just walk in and people are not clogging the aisles, and it is a breeze to park. People are nicer and stop to chat, not all stressed out and aggressive like rats in a maze.


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## SueC

Sounds like your move was a good one, @gottatrot! 

You're mentioning prime ribs and I have a question to you and anyone else reading who may be cooking this stuff. In Australia it's not so common to do this but I have lots of beef ribs in the freezer after our home kill and some of them are extremely meaty - and none of them very fatty (because we didn't kill in spring flush and it was a dairy steer). I've been mostly using them as dog bones but with the really meaty ones I do wonder if I shouldn't try to cook some for us. Is it really worth it, and if yes, any suggestions on how-to? Our ribs, by the way, aren't cut along the ribcage but are individual sections of rib with meat on...

I need to get me a pair of those glasses! 🤪


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## gottatrot

I've never cooked ribs before. Usually I don't order them because they are messy and a lot of work to eat. I have on occasion had ribs cut the way yours are, @SueC, with pieces of meat and they were tender and good.


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## egrogan

@SueC, I'm not much of a carnivore, but with a husband from the southern part of the US, I've learned quite a bit about barbecue over the years. While pork is much more popular than beef where he's from, he does tell a funny story about being a little tipsy as a college student and taking his friends on an outing to an old-school Southern cafeteria where you could literally go inside an order "a rib"- you'd be served a massive, foil wrapped beef rib that was enough of a meal for a college guy. So yes, definitely cooking up large beef ribs is possible and popular here. 🍖

This recipe might get you started: Texas-Style Beef Ribs, though really what you want is a Texas pit master who can tell you his secrets. Absent that, a recipe from a snooty food magazine might be an ok subsitute


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## SueC

Thank you, @gottatrot! 😎 They do look good. We don't have a BBQ (gasp, Aussies without a BBQ!!!) and think we might be able to use the oven or griller instead, but if a Texan pit master heard of this, we'd probably be shot! 😇 I'll give this a go next time I get a bag of ribs in. I guess we'll share with the dog... over Christmas, she's been getting the large offcuts I saved from off the back of the farm vehicle, where the big bony bits of both the carcasses (neighbour's and ours) went, in order to be put on an old wood stack and burnt. The one she got Christmas day was a sight to behold - a frozen bent S-shape of horizontally sawn ribcage from the "useless end" apparently. It was over a foot long and what she left the first night, we put in a bag and refrigerated another two days, until she showed some signs of interest in gnawing at another bone...


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## gottatrot

Happy new year!!

Learning some things about covid.

You'd think I'd know better, but basically most people I know, including medical people have this same kind of thinking. The thinking is that there are a few asymptomatic carriers. But most people who are symptomatic with covid will have a fever, cough, etc. 

I know many nurses who have had the sniffles, or a sore throat, but no fever or cough so everyone said it was a cold and they come to work if they feel up to it. 

Now I am understanding things differently. It seems from people I know, most do not have a fever or cough, but just minor cold symptoms. Not sure why all these are getting tested, but I am hearing from friends and relatives who have normal immune systems, they are not getting fever, cough etc.

My cousin had two days with sore throat. Another cousin had a runny nose three days. My sister has covid at the moment, has had sinus congestion for several days and feels tired. No cough or fever.

My brother has had a couple of "colds" this winter, now I am thinking probably he has had covid. He is around the public at his job.

My point is don't assume if you have a cold with no fever or cough that it is not covid. It probably is. So best to be careful about babying that cold, not getting run down and being cautious about staying hydrated and taking in good nutrition. And what seems like a cold to you could be deadly to those with poor immune systems.


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## Knave

This is something I just found out too!


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## bsms

The ones I know who had COVID (but didn't die): Two had mild sore throats, nothing else. One had a mild fever only (RN, caught by the hospital, he did not notice the fever himself). They were not asymptomatic, but their symptoms were not one a person automatically pays attention to. Which is my problem. I have allergies most of the year, varying in strength. Some days I get a stuffy nose. Other days it drains, which can irritate the throat. If I went to be tested every time I had an irritated throat or sniffles, I'd get tested 5 days a week. And "feeling tired"? Welcome to my world!

The studies I've seen indicate truly asymptomatic cases account for under 1% of transmissions. But one can have very mild symptoms, similar to what I have experienced most of my life. How infectious someone is with very mild symptoms is open to debate. In the three cases I know of, the spouse did NOT catch COVID although they lived in the same house as husband and wife. My suspicion is that mildly symptomatic people are mildly agents of transmission, but no one has any good data on that. Mildly symptomatic people can also crash, and suddenly become extremely ill (apparently). It looks to me (reading studies on the Internet) that early treatment with a variety of drugs seems to be effective, but the same drugs are worthless if taken after strong symptoms develop.

I cannot be tested 5 days a week, and I could have COVID and assume it is my normal allergic conditions. And if it is COVID, then I could turn very ill very fast and then be tough to treat. I think COVID is a SNEAKY virus, disguising itself so that many of us wouldn't think twice about the symptoms - until we either infect someone else or become extremely ill ourselves. Infection survival rates for those of us in our 60s is 99.5% (and higher for younger) - but who wants to take a 1/200 chance on dying next week?

Most of my friends are older than me. We all plan to get vaccinated when allowed, although in Arizona we seem to be very low on the priority list. But all of my older friends are also tired of being told we need to give up everything that makes life worth living until politicians who ignore the rules themselves decide it is safe. I guess we bounce between cautious and fatalistic, with a strong undercurrent of cynicism.

Not trying to step on anyone's toes. I don't criticize anyone for precautions they take.


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## gottatrot

That is tricky having allergies but knowing it could be covid, @bsms. Without allergies, I'd recommend rest, hydration, nutrition. But one can't rest all the time "just in case." 

It seems true that low symptoms mean low contagion. My sister without a runny nose or cough seems to have passed it on to none of the 10 people she spent hours with indoors at Christmas. No masks, but I was insistent we not sing carols this year lol. Good thing. No hugging, kissing and handwashing was enough.

Not a conspiracy theorist at all. But some bad info out there. Any measures we are doing that are effectively stopping the spread of respiratory viruses such as flu this year would also stop covid. But covid is rampant. The truth is we are barely testing for flu this year. Only sick respiratory people who are covid negative. Then we look for flu. So the info that our masks and distancing are stopping flu is wrong. If you can give someone covid you can give them flu. But if people are sick and get a negative covid test, they are happy. Other years they want to know if it is the flu.


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## gottatrot

New Year's resolutions can be boring. But it's my journal so I'll still share, lol.

#1 is to enjoy my old pets. I've got quite the crew. 

The ones seeming the oldest (showing signs) are Amore who will be 30 this year, Gilligan the papillon who is 13, and Joe the parakeet who is about 10. All of them are healthy but a little tottery, eyesight and hearing not so great, etc.

Next up are the two cats who will also be 13 this year, and the finch who is a couple years old. They all seem old but not ancient yet. 

My mom thought I was imminently getting a puppy, because I was discussing dog breeds with my sister and SIL at Christmas. I wouldn't do that to my old Pap, who likes being an only dog. But I like to think ahead.

#2 is about my only youngster, Hero who will also be 13 this year. I want to get him out solo on the trails around the barn, and feeling confident there. I am seeing signs he is feeling much less anxious and more trusting of me and stability in his life.

#3 is a running goal. I want to get my 5k time down below 28 minutes. I think I can do it, my latest have been 28:50 or so. Plus I want to do more longer 5-6 mile runs.

#4 is to learn more Japanese. I learned over 100 Kanji last year, so hopefully a hundred more.

#5 is to improve my violin playing. I improved a lot last year, inspired by DH who is learning cello.

That's all, but another goal is to get our house sold soon so I can finally get my horse trailer!

Both DH and I also want to get out and explore the beaches and trails in our new area.
He has a goal of reading 20 min a day...I said my goal should be to do things other than just read. 😁


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## Knave

I love the resolutions! I am happy with a 30min 5k, but I’m convinced my treadmill is calibrated wrong. Seriously. Lol


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> I love the resolutions! I am happy with a 30min 5k, but I’m convinced my treadmill is calibrated wrong. Seriously. Lol


You look like you'd be a gazelle in your photos. I've run about a 30 min 5k for most of my life. 

It is sort of funny but when I was 13 and started running I read books about lifelong running. These were written by older people, but I took to heart the idea of keeping it enjoyable and never pushed myself. After about 20 years I realized I was safe from burnout and it wasn't just a whim for me. Halfway joking but I really did want to keep my interest up.

I kept track of my mileage for a while in my teens, but after I hit 5,000 miles at around age 20 I lost interest. 

For the past several years I've enjoyed pushing myself more. Had my 30th running anniversary last year. 

I remember going to a 5k a couple years ago and a co-worker was there with her husband. They were tall and slim and said they'd been training a lot. I thought I should not try to start off with them. But I passed them early, and it turned out they were running 12 min miles. 

Appearances can be deceiving. I've also thought I could beat the ubiquitous white haired gentleman with a hitch in his gait a couple times. Now I know not to try. Those guys can pick up the pace in the last mile and disappear out of sight.

When I was a teen, an old guy ran with me for a while in a race. Then he told me he was going to leave me so I might not want to try to keep up. That's when I first learned how experience in pacing can help. Nowadays I am a great pacer, and know exactly what I can sustain. Now it amuses me to see young people and even older ones pacing badly. Especially in 10k races. 

You can tell the two types who sprint off at the start. One group appears like they are not running fast but the zoom away. They will win the race and are the rare athletes outside of the fun run category. The others are the poor pacers, and we will pass them walking within a mile or two. Lol.

In the past ten years where I used to live, more people entered casual runs while society has become more out of shape in general. This led to my sister and I going up in the standings without improving our times. 

Now I live an hour away from Eugene which is track town USA. My sister used to live near here, so warned me. Now my times are pitiful. The last 5k I did, some 70 year old lady ran a 21 minute 5k. She's probably slowed down from 5 minute miles in her 40s.

Guess she's not going to burn out on running either!


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## keriarice23

My mom and sister hate when i get to talking about horses. Ill literally sit there for 2hrs talking about what i want in a horse and everything in between. They are my heart and soul. Amour looks like one of my horses except your has a sock mine just has that star and that same color of bay.


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## gottatrot

keriarice23 said:


> My mom and sister hate when i get to talking about horses. Ill literally sit there for 2hrs talking about what i want in a horse and everything in between. They are my heart and soul. Amour looks like one of my horses except your has a sock mine just has that star and that same color of bay.


Yep, I can talk about horses forever too!


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## keriarice23

They are my fav subject to talk about


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## gottatrot

Worked yesterday on getting Hero out on a ride by himself. 

There are some changes in my understanding that have been gradually changing the way I work with him. 

Of course I had to learn to read when he was being playful vs being reactive. That might sound simple, but with Hero it can be difficult. For example, he might rear in high spirits or he might rear because he is spooking.

It has taken me a long time to realize that Hero is a lot like Amore. Except he is not hot, and when she was his age she was fairly hot. 

I thought Hero was hotter than he is, for a while, because when he is scared he has a lot of adrenaline and appears hot. He also had a lot of drive from pain for a while.

I think the difference is that a hot horse has energy that comes naturally, so they can sustain it for long periods of time. Halla had boundless energy and the drive to run and move. Nala is the same. 
For a not-hot-horse, fueled by fear, these bouts of energy are exhausting. More so mentally than physically. 

I think one way to tell the difference (teaching myself here), is to watch the horse in the pasture. Hero walks around, rarely does a little sprint, and stands a lot. Hot horses zoom around everywhere throughout the day.

So Hero being not a hot horse, if he is energetic it is a sign of fear. I didn't understand for a while because you could see when the Arabs were terrified. Their eyes would bug out, nostrils flare, along with snorting, spooking, prancing.
Hero will hop, kick out or push forward. His eyes look fairly calm and his body is not entirely tense. 

It doesn't look like spooking to me, but it is. It's like you think you want a horse that spooks in place, but honestly I want to know if a horse is terrified. Hero does not show signs he is terrified. He seems "energetic" or naughty but that is him spooking badly. It's almost like he decided with the locking stifles for all those years that he couldn't get away. So instead of bolting off he has a stay in place strategy. It's hop, kick and spin to clear the area. Which is unfortunately how I got kicked twice by him in the past.

He hasn't spun in a long time, so now it is kick out or hop. But inside I have to understand when he does that he is a quaking little Amore wanting to bolt for home. So now I stop and reassure him, let him see the area is safe.

When I walked Hero out yesterday he spooked about six times early on. I'm working on doing the same route over and over, and a down and back rather than a loop. That way he can be confident covering the same ground twice. We are not fighting boredom here, just fear.
I walk him out, ride him back. That is exactly what I used to do with fearful Amore to get her riding out alone. 

Each time I go a little further. Hoping to get Hero so used to a routine he gets very comfortable with it.


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## gottatrot

I was going to mention I've been riding Hero in a flower hackamore lately. He likes it a lot, and turns well. I have no idea if he will slow down in it if he decides to run off. Might find out one of these days. 😁
I've been reading on the forum it really isn't good to keep horses on equioxx long term. I am doing a trial of a half pill daily for Hero to see if I can eliminate it. Remind me of this if I start having problems, lol.


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## Knave

I worry I’ll burn out too on running. I am enjoying it now, but I had to force myself to start. Why run when I’d rather ride... now I am excited to work on my own body as well as my horses. I’m not a super athletic person naturally, (strong yes, but uncoordinated) but getting fit helps me to perform better.

I know what you mean about hot horses and the differences in how that looks. I’m surprised to find that Queen is not hot. She’s athletic and ambitious enough, but not hot. Bones and Beamer are our only hot style horses really.

I took Queen to my grandparents’ house. Grandpa is lonely and being avoided because we all have another bug. He has a special liking of Queen. Maybe she reminds him of someone he once knew, or maybe she just brings back the days of running mustangs, but he is very fond of her.

So I worked her in front of his big picture window while he sat in the wheelchair inside and watched. I think it made him very happy, and I was so grateful that she isn’t a hot style of horse. Nothing about being ponied down to his house or working in the yard phased her.


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## bsms

Mia was hot because she was slow to cool. She'd boil over easy, but that didn't make her hot. It was that if she got hot - either boiling or just at 200 degrees - it took a long time for her to get back to 150. I also thought Bandit was hot, but I guess he is more like Hero. When he's worried or deeply concerned, he's a handful. But he doesn't LIKE being like that, and he has the ability to calm down. Faster and faster as he gets more trusting (and more familiar with his environment). He may go back to feeling "hot" if and when we move, but once he learns the lay of the land, he'll go back to being a pretty easy ride. Easy, that is, for a rider who listens to him. A Nike Rider ("Just Do It!") will provoke resistance.

In Bandit's case, part of it was anticipation of being punished for his fear. He started improving once he learned he could tell me he was worried without getting punished. But the tension doesn't feed on itself. He wants to feel calm.


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## gottatrot

I think all horses want to feel not scared. Calm is somewhat relative I guess. Some horses' baseline energy level is a 6 where another horse might be a 3. But also some horses can have a calmer baseline, but their scared/excited level is an 8 or 9. 

It is interesting. I've been around horses that were normally about a 2, and when scared or excited only went up to a 3 or 4. Those are truly beginner safe horses. 

I remember when I separated the Icelandic mare on the beach in Iceland, waiting for my husband and the guide to get about a half mile away so I could gallop. This was suggested by the guide after our horse discussions on the way out. I was told the mare would get upset at being left. 

As the horses got very far, she raised her head about 3 inches and in her most extreme excitement lifted one front leg high and gave a light paw at the sand. When I turned her and let her go, she gradually tolted into a gallop, and then gave it her mighty best for a minute, then settled back to a relaxed speed. Very cute.

In contrast, people have commented that in videos just walking down a road (and in person), Halla looked too active and alert or unsettled. That was her baseline energy level, what I considered "calm" for her. That was her being not upset and at ease in the world, the same state she would be in out at pasture, unless currently grazing or sleeping.

But Halla excited was tough to handle since her calm state could be too much for some. Still, horses like Hero or Bandit also can get way up there in energy even when they are normally calm. It really could be part of assessing a horse's suitability for an owner, seeing what the excited state is like. We seem to hear a lot on the forum about people who bought a calm horse, but now illness, pain, separation or etc has shown them the ugly side and they are not prepared to deal with it.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think regarding hot horses, that is a lot of good insight and I agree. In general a lot of good insight, it was thoughtful and nice to read  I think a lot of this kind of stuff you just have to learn as you go, especially with horses who dont fit convention or the box or are unique.

I agree. I think hot horse is natural wanting to go. This isnt from fear or anxiety or nerves to run but like a border collie, just needs that stimulation and has that level of work ethic and drive to go. 

I dont think "hot" necessarily makes a horse hard to work with. It depends on what other baggage comes with it. Psychological, emotional and trauma issues are the most difficult. 

Horses can be reactive, spooky and seem "hot" but when they feel secure are no longer hot. They just needed their anxieties reassured and to know they're safe. I agree, I think horse's want to feel "safe."

I think of your thread as a horsemen's thread. I've read so many "know it alls" who condemn others for not having a "perfect, calm horse" all the time and I think, well I see who has minimal experience and needs to go out in the real world and work with some more horses. There is a big difference between being inexperienced and making problems and being experienced and addressing problems slowly. I find horses with deep emotional and psychological barrier to be the most difficult and take the most time. In the YEARS, you cannot fix a horse over night or in a month or even 6 months. I also find as training progresses that more layers of psychological barrier come up and have to be addressed as those barrier are met. And some you just have to accept who they are and accept what can be changed and what cant. and to make them relatively safe and in balance and that should be the goal imo. Ex Wonder will never be calm or amateur friendly. He can be in a balanced emotional state but he will never be a "calm horse." I think balanced is relative to the horse too.

The base of a horse can be a 4 and when elevated be an 8 or 9 like you said. It depends on where a horse is in their base and when elevated and how they react. Hot is hard because I think people can only understand to their experience.

I think it's kinda like "schema therapy" where a horse has unconsciously built their own assumptions of the world and coping mechanisms and they react based on their experiences, shifting that baseline and earning that trust takes a VERY long time.

Wonder in his free time, he leaps and gallops, passages around. He's an active monkey, he can work really-really hard and after a work out be zooming around the field, leaping into the sky passaging.


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## gottatrot

I love that photo of Wonder, it could be a poster. Agree very much with your post and about the length of time it can take to change a horse.

Sometimes I feel that when I post that I am still working on slow changes with Hero that people are thinking, seriously? What have you been doing all this time? 

But we also have a traumatized cat that is still changing, and only recently developed the courage to jump on the bed. When he does it, he wants us to notice and make a big deal over it as he walks around purring. We've had him four years. I tried some flooding with this cat, couldn't help myself. But putting him on the bed and having him run off scared never helped him until he slowly developed the trust and courage to do it himself.

I also feel, as you've mentioned about yourself, that people think I am criticizing "just because" or feel smarter than others. That is not true, but I think also that those who think it is just up to having the right amount of leadership, firmness, boldness or method have not met enough horses yet.

The issue I come back to, and brought up recently on a thread (but did not get an answer), is "What then?" 

I think the advice was to just make the horse stand patiently. But I keep highlighting possibilities, just because I want people to understand it is not so simple sometimes. Because once I thought it was simple too, but then I met more horses.

I remember in an endurance book reading about a horse that wouldn't stand when tied, so the owner tied him overnight in an arena to learn patience. In the morning, the horse was still moving inside the deep trench he had worn into the arena. The owner decided he was nuts and sold him, and his new owner did not ask him to stand patiently but to trot for 50 miles, which he was very good at.

So I always come back to, "Then what?" If the goal is to have the horse stand still for ten seconds, but after fifty attempts he still moves and does not stand. At some point after meeting horses like this, I began to understand it was not a quest for domination, or a technique failure. The horse was not saying "no," he was saying, "I can't." Because as was mentioned, horses do want to try to work with us, especially after developing some trust with us. But sometimes we have to be extremely creative trying to find the things they can do for us if they are on a level where they don't feel able to do the traditional things we might ask of them.


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## Knave

When I think of a ‘hot’ horse I think of one like you just mentioned. Bones is like that. He does not stand tied calmly. He can’t. Sure, I’ve left him tied when it was necessary, and I’ve looked up from branding to see him still crowhopping and kicking out, self mutilating and biting 8 hours into it. He mentally can’t do it. He’s as kindhearted as one comes, but he’s built to run hot.

Cashman is like you mention, generally calm and occasionally highly over reactive. That’s only when he’s particularly upset, but he’s young and those days get further and further away.

I see Queen run and run in the corral, but her mind is one of general thoughtfulness and she doesn’t carry much fear around. I don’t think of ambition as heat, but I can see why many would.

I completely agree with you though; when people start speaking in specifics and telling the world how easy it is to do a thing with the correct authority I am sure they know very little. It fits the sang perfectly, “the more I learn the more I know how little I know.”


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## gottatrot

It's a fault I have that terms people use bring up mental images, which make me dislike the term. Then people say I am being too literal or specific. We've had discussions on here about some of those terms such as inverted, rounding the back and such.

One that always gets me is the idea of skipping steps. Still it gets me. I just envision some kind of manual that shows all the steps of training a horse, and they must be done in order. It reminds me of scientology. Did your horse reach the third level before going to fourth? 

I just believe we can teach a horse anything, in almost any order. Technically you could teach a horse to lead without putting a halter on. Wearing a halter does not need to go before leading, if you use a neck rope. Now if the horse does not lead properly with the neck rope it's not because you skipped halter and halter comes before leading. It's because you did not teach the horse how to lead with the neck rope.

So I think improper training of specific items are the issue if a horse struggles with that specific item. Telling people the horse missed a step in basic training is not helpful. Many times the horse is struggling because he was pushed before he was ready. 

If a horse gets upset and tries to bite you when he is being saddled, and he doesn't have ulcers and the saddle fits, it's because of how he has been saddled before. It does not relate to how well he leads, whether he knocks you over on the way to his food dish, or whether he moves off your leg when ridden.

All you need to do is teach him how to be saddled, and how to trust that you will do it kindly. 

I guess a big reason why these things bother me is because when I first started out with horses, the solutions I was given were very nebulous. I never could find that manual with all the steps for training in order. Any books I found that had some sort of steps didn't really work. 

It keeps getting reinforced to me over and over that training horses is very easy. We really do most of their training just handling them. What is difficult is dealing with their emotions, and teaching horses to trust and maintain communication in various situations. 

If a horse is very trusting, and accepts direction in all circumstances, training is incredibly easy. People teach horses skepticism and mistrust, some horses perhaps have some naturally, and those can become very difficult to break through. 

I think the beginning is allowing the horse to communicate his opinion, even if we disagree. 

At the start, Hero did not want to be brushed. I allowed him to express displeasure over it, which helped me learn he had less reaction to soft brushes. 

At first I only used soft face brushes. After a while he began to allow slightly firmer brushes. I just realized this winter that I can scrub Hero down all over with the hardest plastic brushes now and he is accepting with a soft expression. 

That's how long it took him to really trust that I would not hurt him with the brushes. Along the way, if he ever picked up a leg or made a bad face when I brushed, I stopped doing it that way. I am certain that if I had just made him behave and not listened, he'd still be very negative about being brushed. After all that is how he felt after ten years of handling.

People who do not listen to what horses are communicating create problem horses. Not every time, because many horses accept the lack of communication. But that is how to make a problem horse. 
Just like you can teach a horse basic things in any area, you can create problems in many areas by not listening. You can create a horse that tries to kick and bite when you brush him. Some horses will just shut up if you tell them to. But then you will never hear what they have to say.


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## knightrider

This is a really great post. I so appreciate everyone's input!


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## Knave

I don’t know what I think about steps, but I do think there are a million different ways to do the same thing. I also think that people forget how much the horse himself brings to the equation. I’m with you about taking them into consideration, and what works well with one horse doesn’t work at all for another. They have their own emotions and preferences for communicating!


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## gottatrot

This is the time of year when Halla got sick, and I have lots of memories of her. It's been three years now, and I heard this song on the radio I thought was very appropriate, so I made a new video with some memories.


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## knightrider

Awww, your video brought tears to my eyes. I'm sure it still hurts quite a lot. My heart is with you.


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## egrogan

Loved the video too.

This article popped up today and reminded me of you @gottatrot, and so many others that have been posting in this discussion. It's a little long, but worth the few minutes' read: What You Say About Your Horse Says More About You

This section describing becoming a better trainer especially reminded me of you:


> Learn to see the frustrations as interesting. Learn how to thoughtfully, joyfully, and with an understanding of the horse's nature, teach them a better way.


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## gottatrot

That was a great article! I really liked the part that said, if you think you are doing well training horses, look for an even better way. 

To me that describes the progressiveness we can have with an individual horse over time. 
We believe we know some things about them, and then we get to know them better and our understanding of their motivations and personality changes and deepens, which changes our approach with them. 

Of course they change along the way, which makes things different too. And we change. I am thinking of Fizz and how I have read about her progress going out riding with you. It seems you have learned a lot about her and you both have changed. It is easy to see you are developing a partnership. 

I also liked how the article said there would be resistance and difficulties in the process, and the horse might have some struggles too. Lol. That is about right. 

Also describing how our biases guide us, and how some think it's a dominance struggle, or that horses are computers we program cues into.

I've found that even working with a particular type of horse creates biases. Such as my experience with flightier horses did not prepare me for a horse like Hero who does not show fear or respond to reprimands in the same way. 

Great stuff!


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## knightrider

I agree! That was a great article.

I enjoy taking other people riding, and one of my pet peeves is when folks I have invited to ride start calling my horses words like "idiot" and "stupid." I have corrected at least 3 people over the years for doing that, and one person I have had to correct several times. This is the first article that explains why those words are unacceptable. I always thought it was just me. I would tell the people that they are my much beloved horses, I am very proud of them, I spend a lot of time with them, and it us upsetting to me personally when they denigrate them. I don't say (but I think it), "How dare you denigrate my horse when I am giving you hundreds of dollars of free riding! You are lucky to be ON this horse, so appreciate it!" I do tell them that my relationship with my horses is similar to a romantic relationship. You wouldn't tell someone their boyfriend or their child is an idiot. There is a tremendous amount of love there.

And finally, I must remind myself not to lose it myself with my much loved horses and call them nasty names when they jerk a hoof away from me or suddenly spin away from a crow flying up.


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## bsms

I call Bandit an idiot frequently. It's OK, because he frequently says the same of me.... ;>)

Like Mia, he has no problem with stopping, turning his head around, and looking at me as if he couldn't imagine a dumber animal in the world.


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## gottatrot

You know I'm a rat fan. I've been very good about not feeding the rats that live in the shelter at my barn. They have little cozy places where they like to sleep in hay piles, as evidenced by the poop. 
However, the other day I put some hay pellets in the horse's bins, with a few carrot pieces on top. I went to get the horses and was gone less than five minutes, but when I walked back in to the horse shelters, there were no carrots in the bins! Sneaky little ratties. 

There was a recent study where scientists taught rats to play hide and seek. The rats were able to learn the rules, and know if they were supposed to be the one hiding or seeking each time. They make sounds that we can't hear, but on recordings the scientists noticed the rats were very quiet when hiding and waiting to be found. They also made the sound we know is the equivalent of laughter when they were found, and jumped for joy. They also did things like wait until the seeker looked in a certain spot, and then ran to change their hiding place, thinking the seeker wouldn't look there again.

I thought this video of peekaboo was hilarious.


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## AJ Yammie

Wow, that’s cool. I had a miss garden in my tack shed and sighing a few days the rats tore up my moss and later on I found it was used as nesting material


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## AJ Yammie

Ahhh, within keeps changing to sighing 🙄


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## SueC

Cute rat, lovely Halla clip, and I nearly chimed in with the New Year's Resolutions but am too burnt out to make any! However, here's an article with some habit diary printouts: Make a Habit of It

...I always made my own and it works well, if you have energy. Right now, my resolution is to lie low as much as possible until I get my energy back, and only do total essentials, plus things I really want to do (and have energy for)! 

Hope your new year is starting well.


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## Knave

I liked the article too. I found myself scolded by it however.  I must admit that I use insulting names on occasion. When I do so it is different than he explained, but I do see where it would effect others’ perceptions.

I sang the beginning of the Lizzo song to Queen yesterday laughing. A couple days ago my mother was struggling with Doug. I ended up riding him for her. He was feeling claustrophobic by being asked to be gathered up often, because he was ridden more in the way I ride prior: loose and accountable for himself. (I ride loose, as his old owners did. My mother rides a bit more in the competition style of having a soft contact and a more gathered horse.)

Anyways, he was just at that about to really lose it point. We were straddling the line of if he was going to hear what I was telling him (for lack of better wording) or if he was going to break into the fight he was gearing up for.

I called him a bad name while I worked with him. I did it in a lovingly understanding manner. Lol. That doesn’t sound like it could make sense, but it is how it was intended. It allowed me to bring a more friendly attitude to a negative and touchy situation. I’ve seen my father say things aloud that give him the same attitude barrier and keep him calm while things are going intensely. For example, when he first saw Queen and we tied her up and she had never been close to humans and was scared and at that same point he quietly and lovingly to her said as he reached his hand to her cheek, “You are a big and mean horse aren’t you? You might not be as big as you think you are. You aren’t so tough now you big mean mare.”

Doug and I trotted in circles, stopping and rolling back and then loping the same patterns while I told him that he was quite the *******. Don’t be an ******* to me, I talked nice and continued through that edge.

He did “hear” that I allowed him his freedom again, and he eventually settled after we did some more things. He came back to himself. He is a very good and kind boy who was rightfully frustrated about a thing.

However, I will think about the way I talk. Would I call my children idiots? Yes! I often do. Yet when I do it is in that same loving and joking voice, and they smile and love on me back. My oldest girl occasionally bites me, not hard, and I just tell her I love her too, because that’s what she’s saying. I have many times said I wouldn’t call them an idiot if I believed at all they were not especially bright... I will think about it though.


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## gottatrot

Thanks, @SueC! I think allowing ourselves to rest when we need it is important.

Actually, while I understand @knightrider's perspective and agree (I wouldn't want others calling my horses names), the part about insulting words was one I take with a grain of salt.

To me I guess it is about why you are doing it, and what it means. I think it is similar to those who think medical people shouldn't joke in life or death situations. Like it is a situation demanding gravity or respect. 

But for myself, and some others, it is very helpful. Humor can be a way of getting yourself to rise above a situation so you can see it from a clearer perspective. So you can act rationally rather than emotionally. 

If a person calls a horse names out of anger or in retaliation, or from insecurity it is bad. If it is a form of humor, I think it is fine. A dog trainer I know would say "You big dummy," when her dog was particularly clever, and the dog would melt with happiness. The dog knew it meant "Great job." 
It reminds me of the Princess Bride at the beginning where the girl tells the farm boy what to do. 

I personally find that with horses I don't call them names if I am angry. If we just survived a huge spook or nearly fell, I might call a horse a ding dong out of relief. Mostly if I call a horse a dummy it is to lighten a situation where I am not angry, but maybe getting a little tense and want to change my focus.

Also I guess I prefer words that are lighter rather than A hole or **** head etc. Those do seem insulting to me. That is just me.


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## Knave

I don’t swear too often either Gotta, but I do say *** or a-hole. I don’t think I’ve said it mad though, well, I’m sure I have at some point, but not that I can remember. I called Doug that word. I call my husband that word. Only teasing though.

I don’t like to lose my temper with a horse, but I have. I feel like a little child when I have, always out of anxiety and never helpful. I have done the same with people too. Ick. Luckily it is not a common thing for me, only cornered, but I don’t like it at all.


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## AJ Yammie

My dog max responds to dumb dog and white dog. My neighbours dog Val responds to stupid dog, the neighbours toddler kept saying that so no the dog knows. I had a friend who’s dog was named Dog


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## gottatrot

I think it's time to start a new journal. Anyone who wants to read this one is faced with 3750 posts! 
I'm living in a new area, and I think it's a good time to give Hero his own journal. So I'll be starting a new one called "A Rascal and a Hero."


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## egrogan

Wow. That feels momentous 😉 One chapter closes, another begins...


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