# Headshy Horses, Shocking Cause



## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

I recently bought over Sebastain from the people where I am keeping my mare Socks. They wanted to get rid of him as he was "dangerous". He kept nipping and biting at everybody. From when I moved my mare in August to the field, my husband had a bond with Sebastian. (My husband didn't even like horses at this stage). So when they finally decided it was time for the stallion to go, I got first option. So I bought Seb as a early Christmas gift for my husband. 

We watched some horse videos to get an idea what might be the cause of the young stallions behavior. Eventually we decided to get a trainer out. Sebastian bit the trainer (but the trainer had it coming) so his first "advise" was to castrate Seb. At this stage in time Seb can hardly be handled. We have tried everything. Can't even get a halter on. As soon as you come close to his face he gets aggressive.

So we went back to the previous, previous owners and found he was taken away from his mother at 5 months and left in a field with no other horses or attempts to handle him for at least 6 months.

We thought that might be the problem so we doubled our efforts to work with him and just give him love and attention. We almost immediately got positive results. But one day we can get the amazing right, the next day he is so aggresive we cannot even come close.

This week my husband started real extensive training with him in the field. He was sitting on a hill just observing the horses when a farm worker approached Seb. The worker is just suppose to feed the horses on days we can't make it out to them. He barged right in Sebs personal space and grabbed at the horse' nose. Seb reacted in the only way he knew and bit the worker. The worker then slapped the poor horse quite hard on his cheek.

My husband chased the worker off, but the damage was done. For the rest of the day he could not work with Seb. 

All our horses have been acting strange and we couldn't figure out why. My loving mare became headshy and wouldn't allow me close with a brush. The horses are all jumpy at the feeding area. After this incident we now know what is happening to these poor horses and have started working on correcting this. 

Point of the story, if your horse changes its behavior drastically, check who has access to your horses....:shock:


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm sorry that happened to you, but why are your keeping him a stud? He'd be much easier to work with and happier as a gelding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This untrained horse is going to hurt or kill someone. I would suggest you get a halter on him any way you can (chute, small pen, roping, ???) and have him castrated. He needs to be taught manners and boundaries, not made 'friends' out of ASAP.

And yes! Get a new chore person. You do not need someone around that teases and aggravates your horse.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

MOST of us would smack a horse hard for biting. If my stallion offered to bite, there would be a serious CTJ moment. That said, get the horse roped or whatever works, and get him gelded ASAP. Before you get done tiptoeing around him, he WILL seriously hurt someone. His PROBLEM is that no one has bothered to teach him manners.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Hopefully this young stallion is not out with mares. I vote with everyone else, geld him first. Do not "baby" him because he's been "abused"....you'll just create a monster.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Babying him is just going to get someone killed. He needs castrated and a CTJ moment ASAP. While I do not condone what your farm hand did, I will say that if I was around your stud and he tried to bite me I would give him a nice solid smack or two around the muzzle. 

The working smacking him, grabbing at him is not the cause of your problems now. Your problems now are that an ungelded horse has been allowed to think that this behavior is okay, you SHOULD be able to walk into his space, grab at him, paw at his nose and do whatever without him attempting to bite at you. Yet again not condoning what the farm hand did, but that is not the root of your problems and in believing so you will set the horse up to either hurt or kill someone.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

They already have. Biting is normal to a stallion. It stimulates mares when in heat, it helps fend off competitors. The man doing chores wasn't afraid of the horses and gave them a good smack if they failed to respect his space. The horses may not be nervous at feeding time but milling around and keeping their respectful distance. A horse rarely becomes head shy from a smack on the jaw. Your mare may be picking up on your lack of leadership and playing it for what it's worth to her. If you want to keep a stallion, you need to demand impeccable manners from him ie he doesn't move a foot until told to, doesn't eat until give permission. He's not allowed to make one decision when around people. If you're not capable of doing this, he needs to be sold or gelded. If you don't, he will be completely out of control when the spring heat rolls around. He'll see you and your husband as competitors looking to take his mares away. BTW, there was no bond as it takes respect to have a bond and this horse respects no one.


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Rehancke said:


> Point of the story, if your horse changes its behavior drastically, check who has access to your horses....:shock:


I think others have conveyed their thoughts about the stallions' behavior so I will not venture there.

But to respond to your above point...many (many!) years ago at one farm i worked at, a coworker and I were responsible for walking 8 horses (2 to 4 at a time) down to a large pasture for the day and bringing them in at the end of the day.
The coworker had recently started a habit of shooing off the horses the moment she removed the halters. If said horse did not move off quick enough the coworker would slap them hard with the lead rope. This was a new thing because she was having a hard time (somewhere else in her life) and it made her feel better to take her aggression out this way. The faster the horses ran off the more she would laugh about it.

To me this was bad for quite a few reasons- it encouraged the horse to tear off the minute they thought thy were free of the halter, it created a dangerous situation for the human who was trying to get the halters on/off at the gate, and three... that in tearing off like like a horse could easily kick out- hitting the human. 
When I mentioned my concerns about it to the BO, it fell on deaf ears. In her mind the horse still behaved very well at the barn. And they did, aside from getting ancy and agitated when being walked to the pasture, so she thought I was just trying to create trouble and said as much.

Not long after that was a day where the BO had to manage things herself because of hired help off days and the remaining one called in sick. 
Yep, she got hurt dealing with the horses at the gate and had to be taken to the hospital. You can guess why.
It never occurred to her to be more aware of how barn hands could affect the behavior of her horses because the last time she had to turn them out herself, all were well behaved.

Moral is (aside from the stallion behavior) that some times another human's behavior can affect a horse's actions.
Looking at the _entire_ environment for clues is not a bad idea if a person thinks something is off.

And, as a new member, that might have been more of the purpose in OP relaying their story.
...just saying...


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

I recently bought over Sebastain from the people where I am keeping my mare Socks. They wanted to get rid of him as he was "dangerous". He kept nipping and biting at everybody

Your first 2 sentences pretty much sum up the situation. What you have on your hands is a time bomb, waiting to go off. And when it does, the potential for great harm, injury or even death to you or your husband is real. 

Stallions do NOT understand " love and understanding " they act on instinct and hormones....period. You need to get this guy gelded ASAP. It will be a blessing for him, and you. So call your Vet, and do it. 

6 months from now, you will realize the wisdom of having him gelded, and only then will you have the opportunity to work, train and give him a chance to have a productive life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Uh...poor horse??? He tried to bite the guy and the response is poor horse??

I'm sorry you're having trouble. Step one is geld him. That IS a solution and something that should happen anyways. This has nothing to do with his biting. At the same time is has everything because he will probably get better.

Can't help but wonder how the trainer had it coming. Sounds like the trainer was spot on.

No wonder the horse bites if no one disciplines him.... Who do you think was hurt more. The guy who got lunged at and bitten by a stallion or the stallion who got the horse equivalent of a sharp slap from a human?

Now if this is a widespead behavior and the other horses are responding negatively then yes, you do need a new worker.

More importantly. Your dangerous horse needs an attitude adjustment and to be handled properly.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

One of the places I worked at had a stallion attack an employee. She was talking on her cellphone while walking him out to the pasture. The horse viciously attacked her and ripped her face apart. Broke a few ribs.

My neighbor has a stallion. She can't even ride him anywhere, as she lives on a dead end street and has to pass my house and my mares. She can't control him.

It is so much easier to deal with a gelding! My neighbor s stallion was a wonderful two year old. Once he hit three he became uncontrollable. Why put yourself at risk?

Call your vet. They may be able to mix a sedative in his feed so you can have him gelded.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I would say that the person feeding the horse has more understanding of horses than either you or your husband. 

I do know if someone asked me to feed their horse that is known to be dangerous, then I would certainly want to show that horse that I owned the air he breathed. 

Having someone who was afraid going to feed him is a sure fire way of having them seriously hurt.

I go along with every other answer, *get him gelded as soon as possible.*

Once he is gelded he will be less frustrated however there will still be serious respect issues and these are not turned around by 'love' 

The horse needs to learn manners with firm fair handling. He has to learn that biting is not an option, that humans, although smaller and weaker, have the power to demand respect _every time they interact with him._
Unless you and your husband are prepared and experienced enough to give tough love then this horse will become more and more dangerous and more and more miserable.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Agree with the others, get this horse gelded ASAP. Stallions are incredibly dangerous, _especially_ for the inexperienced owner and there is absolutely no reason to keep him a stud. Even the most sweet and gentle seeming stallion can and will turn into a vicious, extremely dangerous monster thanks to the hormones raging in his body and the breeding imperative. People across the country, including experienced breeders are maimed and sometimes killed by stallions and I've known several cases of stallions breaking through fences and killing other horses. Stallions lead a very lonely, isolated life since they cannot be safely turned out with a herd.

Rethink what this trainer and this worker did-they did what most _experienced_ horse owners do and they were _not_ wrong. Friendship is the _last _thing your husband needs to develop with this horse-absolute respect and manners is and it needs to be accomplished now, when the horse is young. Get him gelded and re-enlist the help of this trainer - if this horse is not corrected soon, I'm sorry to say he will ruined, sold because he is still dangerous and then be a candidate for the slaughter pen. Young horses in particular deserve an early start of firm, correct, humane training as it will effect what kind of life they lead in the future.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Disney is fiction as is the Black Stallion and Flicka.. Fury and Mr. Ed. Horses are LIVESTOCK. You can enjoy horses, train horses and ride horses.. but you do NOT bond with a horse (like you do a dog). They are large livestock animals who are more interested in their herd than they are in YOU. A rough start in life (weaning at 5 months is normal as would be separating an only colt that has not been gelded) is no excuse for today's behavior. 

Trainers that are worth their salt will tell you that they don't CARE about the horse's previous experiences. They train what is in front of them. 

Horses are not pets and if they are treated LIKE pets they become very dangerous 1200 pound creatures that can and will kick and bite the people who care for them and, yes, kill them. 

If you continue on this "poor horsey just needs some luvin'" path you are or someone else will get hurt, and badly. 

Stallions have two things on their mind. Breeding mares and traveling to find mares to breed. That is it. 

Tractability in a Stallion can be trained by a good professional (have you a few thousand dollars for a trainer?) and kept up by a clear handler. Anything less than that needs to be a gelding... and even as a gelding this horse will be a hand full. 

If you and your husband want to "bond" to something I recommend a good dog.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

No word from OP. We seem to have lambasted her pretty hard. I hope she returns with the realization our intention was to keep her and hubby from serious harm.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

Hey guys, thanks for all the advise but as I stated above Seb has never been handled or haltered. It is easy to say have him gelded but how do we do that if we cannot even touch him? Today we started introducing a halter. But he shies away completely. We actually noticed his cheek split where the worker hit him. Can't even get close to clean out the wound. He is in a field with my pregnant mare. As soon as she goes to the foaling area he will go in with the young calves. But yeah, the vet said we must first get him workable before he can come geld Seb as we have to clean the wound every day. But we have no sure indication of Sebs age. We guess around year and a half to two years.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Look at it from another way
No experienced horse person goes diving into a group of horses unannounced - in that split second they have no clue if its a human another horse or a predator. 
They are horses therefore they react like horses - one minute we want them to be natural and the next we suddenly expect them to have the ability to think like a human?
The horse behaved like a horse and then got punished for it - I have a friend with no spleen because she walked up behind a very quiet friendly mare unannounced and got kicked - did she blame the mare and beat it up? No. She blamed herself for being such an idiot
Go back to the horse - its got a history of being treated unfairly - if anyone truly believes its going to forget that in a few weeks then they haven't been around many horses
Yes the horse needs to be handled firmly and fairly now and it should be gelded but you keep hitting on a defensive horse for no reason or with no control and it just gets worse


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

And on your point of the worker being experienced, um not to be funny, he knows nothing about horses, he just feeds the ducks and geese and chickens on the farm. The owners of the property just got him to feed the horses as well as the chicken coop is next to the horses camp.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have yet to see a horse have a cut cheek from a hit from a human and would say that if a horse was hit hard enough to do so his reaction would be to turn and kick rather than attack with teeth.

I have dealt with more than my fair share of obnoxious colts bred for flat racing so gelding was not an option for most. As said colts use their teeth a lot and although for most it was 'just a game' some were what I would class as biters. I punished the worse with a hard punch that has one occasion broken two bones in my hand and it certainly never cut the horse. 
It could be that he was pestering your mare and she booted him?

I would build a secure pen area, no bigger than 12' x 12' have him get use to going in there for some feed, once he is use to that get the vet out and give him some tablet form of dope and shove it in some feed, once he is staggering you should be able to get a halter on him. 

If you built a chute from the pen back to the field so he gets use to walking out through that so when the day comes you can enclose him in the chute but this needs to be very solid and strong,


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Or the 'help' hit him with something he had in his hand?
If the person is inexperienced and therefore nervous of the horses he's quite likely to take some 'weapon' in with him
A defensive stallion is just as likely to attack with its teeth as to turn around and kick if the threat is in front of him.
The easiest way to sedate a horse like this is with a dart gun - if they can't separate him from the mare or any other horses he's in with then its likely not going to be easy to get anything in a feed that the others won't also get too.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The OP said he was slapped. He wasn't said to be carrying a 'weapon' 

As for the other horse getting the feed that is why I said they need to build something to contain him.


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

Rehancke said:


> Hey guys, thanks for all the advise but as I stated above Seb has never been handled or haltered. It is easy to say have him gelded but how do we do that if we cannot even touch him? Today we started introducing a halter. But he shies away completely. We actually noticed his cheek split where the worker hit him. Can't even get close to clean out the wound. He is in a field with my pregnant mare. As soon as she goes to the foaling area he will go in with the young calves. But yeah, the vet said we must first get him workable before he can come geld Seb as we have to clean the wound every day. But we have no sure indication of Sebs age. We guess around year and a half to two years.


Sedation gun? Tranquil medication directly in the food? It's not rocket since, most equines vet knows how to handle this situation. 
Stop making excuses and get the horse gelded. You cant handle him, he can kill you, and you are certainly never going to breed such a horse. 
I understand you have a sweat spot for this horse, but do him a favour and give him a fair chance by gelding him.'


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

It is possible to sedate him for gelding. Either you can mix the sedative with his feed or have him darted with a tranquilizer gun.

I know my vet carries a tranquilizer gun. I suggest getting it done even if you can't handle him. If for some reason he does develop complications from gelding, the vet can give you dormosedan gel to mix in his feed to sedate him if the area needs tending. 

It certainly isn't ideal, but it is far better than you or your husband getting hurt.

You may want to get some dormosedan gel to keep on hand. I would imagine he needs his feet done by the farrier. When was his hooves trimmed last? If he doesn't get his feet trimmed, it could cripple him.

I think you need to find a trainer to work with him. A good trainer won't abuse him, but he might need to get slapped once or twice for biting. Biting is an act of aggression. Kicking is more often fear based. This horse thinks he is the herd stallion and you are under him. When you (or the person who feeds) does not do what he wants, he escalates his behavior to biting and kicking. 

I knew someone who felt like you do. Her horse kicked her husband in the head and he had to get 60 stitches. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. If my horse bit me, I would go after him and he needs to think his life is over in ten seconds. After that you go right back to what you were doing before. There should be no anger involved. No prolonged abuse. 

Watch how horses act in the field. When they fight there is about ten seconds before it is over. During that time the aggressor bites or kicks and the subordinates flee. Your horse is acting as the aggressor. If you don't flee he will attack you... this is why you need a trainer. A trainer can use the ten seconds to set himself up as leader. 

Do you have a roundpen to work this horse in? How much experience do you have with horses? 

I don't agree with beating horses, but some sort of discipline is needed. Before this horse hurts someone.

Horses can tell who is weaker. He might not challenge a trainer at all! My mom is not a strong willed person and horses pick up on that and try to push their limits. It isn't anything terrible, but if they can drag her to the nearest pile of grass, they will!

Horses are very smart at reading our intentions. He is testing his limits to see what he can get away with. In his mind, he is treating you like another horse. As you are below him, you better drop his feed fast! As that is his feed and how dare you stand next to his feed! Since you didn't move fast enough, now he is going to bite you. You are disrespecting him as you didn't move away fast enough!

The man I knew who was kicked in the face, was carrying hay, when he was attacked. The horse warned him, and he didn't react fast enough! 

I hope you see what I am getting at. Not all horses are sweet and loveable. I have a very sweet mare who loves people and has a good attitude. I'm working with a horse that is her opposite. She sees me, pins her ears, doesn't want to be caught, gives me an attitude about being ridden. It makes me appreciate my mare who loves to go riding! 

I think gelding will improve his attitude. Right now he is probably in the stage where stallions start fighting for mares. He is a hormonal mess full of aggression and unfulfilled desires!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Really not trying to gang up on you OP, just got really confused as to how there could be an open wound on the horse's cheek. Did the man hit him with an object or his hand? Either way while I still don't condone what he did that in no way shape or form excuses the horse. Honestly if the horse is as bad as I'm imagining I would hope that having a few small nicks on him from me would make him think twice. 

Another question: Do you have ANY experience with training and handling stallions? They're a whole different ball game from 'regular' horses. They require a firmer, more experienced hand. 
I really think you need to get a professional trainer to come out immediately. As for the vet not gelding him that is very odd. Around these parts when we have a dangerous animal we tranquilize them, geld them and do then chase them in a field to keep them moving so the wound doesn't clot. This is incredibly dangerous situation. I've seen a dozen colts that this has happened with and trust me they are barely handled and come out none the worse for it. 

Let me put it to you this way. You have a decision to make. Either you will geld him, do what's right by him and get a professional to help you or you will not geld him, take pity on him and he WILL EVENTUALLY hurt someone. No matter how sweet he was as a baby, no matter how sweet he can be, he's a hormonal ticking time bomb. Once your mare goes into foal heat, that will be that and the problem will escalate until a point of no return. 

Get a trainer, geld him, make him safe for you and your husband and provide him a safe, loving home. OR: continue on until he hurts or kills someone and is sent to the glue factory (for not everyone thinks rationally when this happens).


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

It'd this horse doesn't get what it needs soon, you are going to have to euthanize him. Unfortunately that is where he is heading. I'm not saying that to be mean,I have seen it happen and its a horrible thing. You could get seriously injured or killed by this horse. It's past does not matter. The man feeding slapping the horse does not matter at this point.

Find a vet that will drug him or a cowboy that can rope him so that he can be separated from the other horse and sedated. Ask your vet or farrier if they know anyone that can rope. 

Most of all, good luck. I hope things work out ok and no one gets hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Rehancke said:


> Hey guys, thanks for all the advise but as I stated above Seb has never been handled or haltered. It is easy to say have him gelded but how do we do that if we cannot even touch him? Today we started introducing a halter. But he shies away completely. We actually noticed his cheek split where the worker hit him. Can't even get close to clean out the wound. He is in a field with my pregnant mare.


I'm sorry to 'join the crew', but you don't appear to see the danger or the whole picture realistically.... You cannot even catch or halter the horse, so he can't be cared for adequately(Is that fair, of itself??). You 'can't' geld him, dress wounds, can't worm him, can't have his teeth attended(maybe that's what he's been trying to say??:lol, his hoofcare has obviously been neglected... You don't know about training, haven't managed to be effective in catching him even and he is already a confirmed dangerous individual. **Please take this deadly seriously... literally!! 

I don't blame the horse in the least - he's doing what comes naturally & just sounds like a 'spoilt brat', no more deserving of blame than a child who's never been taught manners or 'respect'. But he desperately needs to be *fairly but firmly* taught those lessons, NOW & handled by someone who knows exactly what they're doing, for his sake, as well as yours & all who must deal with him. Because what's going to happen to him WHEN he finally seriously injures or kills someone? Or is hurt//sick/hooves so bad that waiting for him to become friendly before treating is life threatening.

While I don't *usually* 'do' physical punishment with any horse, find there are usually better ways, and also I don't follow the 'horses can hurt eachother more so as hard as you can do is OK', if you had employed me to go into a paddock with a known aggressive stallion who couldn't be handled, forget the slap, I'd be carrying a bit stick & not afraid to use it, for my safety... or I'd refuse to go in with that horse at all.

So.... I suggest you call in a trainer, stockman or such, who is experienced in dealing with 'problem children'. Get the horse rounded up & keep him in a small paddock/large yard, so he can be worked with. Having to provide his feed & water... & 'owning' the resources, to be doled out *on your terms* will help. For safety's sake, don't knock any trainer who may draw the line at getting him rounded up & darted, into a crush, roped & thrown, knocked out or such to be gelded, before they're willing to do anything more with him. He doesn't NEED to be halter trained & quiet to be gelded.

If this doesn't happen very soon, probably the kindest thing you could do is to euth him now. Fluffing around him when you're not sure is only likely to make matters worse. After the trainer has successfully instilled some manners, then you can employ him to teach you & your husband safe & effective handling, but I still hesitate you do anything with this horse yourself, without supervision. So I do NOT advise you try anything of the sort yourself for a while at least, but for a couple of good egs of handling 'dangerous' horses, Warwick Schiller & Klause Hempfling are a couple of names you can look up on Youtube.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Rehancke said:


> Hey guys, thanks for all the advise but as I stated above Seb has never been handled or haltered. It is easy to say have him gelded but how do we do that if we cannot even touch him? Today we started introducing a halter. But he shies away completely. We actually noticed his cheek split where the worker hit him. Can't even get close to clean out the wound. He is in a field with my pregnant mare. As soon as she goes to the foaling area he will go in with the young calves. But yeah, the vet said we must first get him workable before he can come geld Seb as we have to clean the wound every day. But we have no sure indication of Sebs age. We guess around year and a half to two years.


Give him a sedative. Find a different vet that will work with you.

There are plenty of unhandled/dangerous horses gelded. Doesn't need to be complicated. The vets gonna knock him out anyways so why does it matter?

I'm glad you care about your horse. I really am. I love my horses. Do NOT make excuses. Stop feeling badly for him. EMOTION HAS NO PLACE IN TRAINING. Especially not misplaced sympathy. Even if the worker is inexperienced- he absolutely did the right thing. One of my horses is naturally aggressive. I respect him and he respects me. I DO NOT baby him. He is responsible for all his actions. He knows what to do and what not to do. I have no problem with him at all as he knows that he behaves properly he gets rewarded and that ultimately when it comes down to it I am ALWAYS in charge.

He needs to be gelded, he needs a real trainer. I would say he needs an attitude adjustment, but that comes from the first two I feel. In the nicest way possible YOU need an attitude adjustment. See previous paragraph. You can love him while being in charge. He will appreciate it far more.

Tell me, what would your husband of done if he was the one down there?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sorry, to add-

Agree, you will end up having to put him down if this continues.

To expand on the discipline vs abuse if that's what you're afraid of.. Discipline is fair. It's done in a proper way to address the action prompting it. Discipline is NECESSARY. Discipline with horses is often physical. Particularly when the horse is doing dangerous things. As I said before...which do you think hurt more? A dangerous and aggressive behavior from 1000lbs of hormones MUST be dealt with immediately and properly. I don't feel like this is clicking for you yet.. :/

A good point was made that it's quite likely the behavior of the other horses is NOT from abuse. I've seen many "abused" horses that either learned to act like that or were just responsive that way. Doesn't mean anything.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you once again for the advise. It is possible the worker had something in his hand. My husband saw it happen from a distance and I myself was not there. Seb has never had his hooves done, or had any of his shots, and we were the first to deworm him. 

I have spoken to my husband and we have decided we want to move our horses to a friend on the farm next door. The owners does not accommodate us. They have two ponies for their kids. (The older pony is straight from hell). She instigates fights between the other horses. Plus we do not have a pen, ring or enclosure to work with the horses. This makes me feel quite uncomfortable having to work with my mare in the field with all the other horses and ponies.
So think we need to move the horses and then get Seb done. Do not think sedating him is going to work in a huge field with all the others milling around.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

Got a trainer out but he didn't know the head of the horse from the tail. He came dressed really sloppy, he stumbled over basic terminology. And even after I told him my mare was far along in pregnancy he slapped her on the belly (She kicked at him). He claims to be a Natural Horseman who specializes in difficult stallions. He also told me that when my mare foals, I must not have any contact with the little one for the first year and a half. So must I leave my mare alone for a year and a half. Don't know where to get a good trainer here. Tried google and phoned up everybody I could.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Rehancke said:


> He also told me that when my mare foals, I must not have any contact with the little one for the first year and a half.


Weeell... I REALLY don't like to jump to conclusions & judgements from what is written here, but... I'd run a mile from that one, based just on that piece of advice! 

I really know where you're coming from, if you don't have adequate help, but for the sake of yourself and the horse, if you can't get help, do consider that it may be too much for you & there's no shame in admitting that... even if it's a very difficult decision. Might be the safe one, & best for all in the long run.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

I have only always had mares as a kid that I worked hard on training myself. I have also handled foals but I am way out of my comfort zone here. Closest I came to problem horses was the rescues I get from the NSPCA. But this is the first time I get a stallion like this. I feel this one also deserves a chance. Thats why I am asking for advice. I have thought about having him put out of his misery. But he has never pulled any of these biting stunts with me or my husband. If I didn't see him bite the trainer, I wouldn't have believed it of him. And it is my husband choice what to do with him. This morning I got a call from someone who wants to breed his mare to Seb, he says he knows Seb and he is serious. What do I do now?????


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Don't breed him. Unless he is an exceptional animal with a an amazing pedigree there is no need for a stallion. Breed him and you will have twice as much trouble. There are way too many backyard bred horses heading to slaughter houses. Too many really nice horses heading to slaughter houses for that matter.

I'm afraid I'm with the others. If a horse were to bite at me I'd have slugged him for all I was worth. Slow moving, quiet, 5'4" me would become a giant fire breathing dragon that eats horses for about 30 seconds.

My vet has a tranquilizer gun. I live in backwoods nowhere.

Geld him and put him in horsey boot camp.

And for the sake of the foal when it hits the ground handle him from day one. Handle him like a 1000lb animal he will become and not a puppy.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Rehancke said:


> I feel this one also deserves a chance. Thats why I am asking for advice.


He absolutely deserves a chance IMO! They all do! They're not 'born mean'. Like I said, you can't blame them. But if you're out of your depth & without help, it might be more dangerous than it's worth for you. And I believe the others who have responded here have not been unfair, but we have given you the best advice, with LOTS of experience between us, that we know how to via a forum. Unfortunately an internet forum falls way short of giving you anything more helpful in this sort of situation. You need 'real' help.(I hear ya, that's proving difficult...) Please take our advice as of many concerned people, many of us work with horses & speak from personal experience of the damage & death that can be caused by 'vicious' or 'spoiled' horses. But at the end of the day, we know very little about you guys or your horse, we're maybe(hopefully) way off. Just be realistic & very careful about safety whatever you do.


> This morning I got a call from someone who wants to breed his mare to Seb, he says he knows Seb and he is serious. What do I do now?????


Knee jerk reaction is DON'T even THINK about it!


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Gah. I am just speechless here.

Please tell us the general area where you live. Maybe one of us will know someone who can help. Then you have to ACCEPT that help and not be squeamish if it seems a little rough. It will just about HAVE to be a little rough the way things stand.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This horse is not mean. You have not seen a vicious stallion. This horse has just been allowed to reach maturity without any training or manners -- a really bad idea. Since it is well into spring in your hemisphere, it is the worst time of year for a a mature stallion to have raging hormones.

First of all -- does he have both testicles in view? This is necessary for a reasonably priced castration.

Second -- there are 2 ways to very quickly lower the Testosterone levels in a stallion. One, of course is, castration. The other is to turn him out with a herd of mature geldings. I have only owned one 3 year old stallion in my lifetime that was too tough for a set of geldings. Turning him out with a set of mature gelding will mot only drop his Testosterone levels over-night, it will manner him and teach him to 'back off' when pressure is applied.

Once his Testosterone levels are down, he will become much easier to handle. Either way, you need to get a halter on him. Get one on him any way you can. You can make a chute out of 3 or 4 panels set parallel to a strong, safe fence. The best place to do this is in the corner of a small, strong corral. 

We have gotten halters on stallions much older that this by making a chute to put them in. We have also had Veterinarians castrate these un-handled animals. We simply ran them into a makeshift chute, haltered them, put a full blind-fold over their head, let the Vet give them an IV sedative, moved the panels quickly out of the way and let them fall down. Withing 15 minutes of the Vet's arrival, they were geldings. 

Then, one day later we tied them up and started handling them while they were still stiff and sore. [Take advantage of every 'gift' you get with one.]


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm surprised your vet has no method of getting a sedative to him. usually they can have access to a dart gun or know a few hands who can throw a horse. Worst case scenario string some temporary hot wire, herd him into that section and feed him the sedative alone. 

I would not breed this guy as imo he does not have a good temperament for a stud. He deserves every chance he can get because he's not mean, he just deserves these chances lacking in two very special male items! ;-)


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I am on page two and have not read the rest. I will but I first want to say Good On you OP for coming back. You have had a lot of good advice here. Whatever you need to do.. do it.. to get this boy gelded. 

If you can get him into a box stall, the best way to tame him down (after gelding) (IMO) is to only allow him to eat when you are present. When you leave, take the food with you (including hay). Because horses need to eat small meals continuously this method takes HUGE dedication on your part and you will be present several times a day. It is amazing how darn interested and cooperative a horse can get if they realize that you bring the food and you take the food. Do not feed him out of your hand. You can feed him a flake of hay on the floor and/or a little bit of grain (like a handful) in his feed tub. If he is not finished with the hay or grain when you leave, take it out with you. Come back in an hour and feed more.. rinse and repeat. 

I got a horse once that was so wild and unhandled he would cower on the far wall of the box stall when I stood there. I just stood there with the hay on the ground between me and that horse. I gave him 10 minutes to start eating. If he did not start eating, I gathered up the feed and left. Clean water was always available. Inside of 3 weeks he was approachable. It just took a lot of time and dedication. 

FWIW he turned into one of the most reliable horses I ever had. But.. then again.. I had been training and working horses for a number of years when I got him so knew what was up.

BTW I do not suggest this method with a truly aggressive horse.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

*Rehancke *where are you located? Are you in the US or in another country? If we knew where you were located there might be someone here on the forum that knows of a good trainer and good vet in your area.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Discipline - from disciple meaning to teach. This is not the same as punishment. The problem with tranquilizing a large animal with a gun is one never knows how it will react. As it feels it enter the bloodstream the horse may panic as he tries to fight off the feeling of losing control. A local vet told me it takes about 15 min before the animal goes down when done with a gun.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This OP is in South Africa. We do not know what is available there. Obviously, there are different options.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I think there are a couple other folks from that area that post here. I'll try to remember who they are.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

I am in a small town in South Africa. We have two vets in town. One of them doesn't want to come near my horses as my preg mare does not like that vet. The other one is an older more old fashioned vet. He will not castrate Seb unless he is sure that he is older than 2 years, he says that a colt must first experience his hormones before getting the crown jewels removed. From research I did, I have read doing it when the colt is younger is less traumatic. So what do I do? Like I said, we currently have zero facilities, just one huge field. No barn, no stable. I had to hijack the owners calf pen with a shelter in to prepare as a foaling area. I don't mind spending the money on what the horses need. But I also feel it would be a waste to keep spending and get nothing in return.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Rehancke said:


> I am in a small town in South Africa. We have two vets in town. One of them doesn't want to come near my horses as my preg mare does not like that vet. The other one is an older more old fashioned vet. He will not castrate Seb unless he is sure that he is older than 2 years, he says that a colt must first experience his hormones before getting the crown jewels removed. From research I did, I have read doing it when the colt is younger is less traumatic. So what do I do? Like I said, we currently have zero facilities, just one huge field. No barn, no stable. I had to hijack the owners calf pen with a shelter in to prepare as a foaling area. I don't mind spending the money on what the horses need. But I also feel it would be a waste to keep spending and get nothing in return.


Are you near any polo clubs? I know a few people in SA. They may have suggestions. And, despite the perception that polo people are wealthy, the ones I know are frugal with their money.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

How were you able to get him to the place he is at now & how will you move him to the neighbors?

Tell the vet he _is_ two, he's close enough & the vet won't be checking his teeth beforehand.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The first vet won't be working with the mare so maybe ask anyways? Not sure..

Well he is obviously feeling his hormones!! Yes, most people try to avoid that!


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

natisha said:


> How were you able to get him to the place he is at now & how will you move him to the neighbors?
> 
> Tell the vet he _is_ two, he's close enough & the vet won't be checking his teeth beforehand.


I was wondering this... If you could wrangle him into a trailer then it seems conceivable that you could eventually get a halter on him somehow.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Sure but physically forcing a halter on him (much more dangerous than physically forcing him into a trailer) really doesn't count as halter broke and really doesn't mean much except that the horse is now wearing a halter. And you probably won't be able to get it off again.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> ^Sure but physically forcing a halter on him (much more dangerous than physically forcing him into a trailer) really doesn't count as halter broke and really doesn't mean much except that the horse is now wearing a halter. And you probably won't be able to get it off again.


I would worry about being halter broke later - after his goolies have been well and truly removed.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The usual oral sedation is ACE (ACP) and its fairly useless unless the horse is calm when its given, if you give it to a horse that's hyped up it can make things worse
We took a very aggressive 8yr Arabian stallion that had to be sedated with a tranquillizer dart - he went down very quickly with no bad effects at all
Once the horse is castrated he can be kept lightly sedated until his hormones are settled and he's losing his fear and distrust of people
We kept that horse in a large stable with a quiet gelding opposite him for company until he accepted us. Once that had happened he was turned out with that gelding in a small bare paddock until he was happy to be caught every day.
Doing that makes them totally dependent on you for food and water
It only took a month to have him a normal horse - most of his problems stemmed for his hormones and the rest from lack of good handling and training
I agree with Cherie - this isn't a truly vicious horse because if it was that help wouldn't have lived to tell the tale - the horse would have turned on him and attacked and no amount of punching on the face would have stopped him. You only have to look at two dominant horses fighting to know that they can take some awful knocks and still not back down
This is a horse that's confused, afraid, untrained and maybe even thinking is has to protect the mare it's in with
Hitting a horse on the face when its like that is just going to make it even more fearful of anyone touching its head
I've spent time with some excellent stallion men and when they're having to go in with a horse they know to be aggressive they would never aim at the head if it threatened - a head shy horse is more trouble than its worth


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Maple said:


> I would worry about being halter broke later - after his goolies have been well and truly removed.


This. In the future I'm hoping that the horse will be truly and properly halter broke/trained, but in the meantime the big snip seems to be the priority!



Yogiwick said:


> ^Sure but physically forcing a halter on him (much more dangerous than physically forcing him into a trailer) really doesn't count as halter broke and really doesn't mean much except that the horse is now wearing a halter. And you probably won't be able to get it off again.


Unless I'm misremembering from reading yesterday the big reason that the horse can't be gelded is that he can't be haltered. 

(Now that I reread she actually said that the horse needs to be WORKABLE to be gelded. Completely different from forcing a halter on)

Still, I think that removing the hormonal aspect of things should be the first order of business. Beyond that I can't comment much because I am not experiences with completely untrained horses or stallions... was just commenting on what I thought I read.


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## myhorserules (Oct 21, 2014)

As to the horse biting the farm hand. The way I read it, the original poster said the worker grabbed at the horses face BEFORE the horse bit him. The OP sounded as though they think the quick personal space invasion and face grabbing is what caused the horses reaction of biting. I also agree with gelding him but it needs to be done in the calmest way possible. Forcing him into a trailer and halter, on top of the trauma of the "surgery", could cause him to resist haltering and trailering in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Have a vet drop him with a tranq gun, take his hairy plums while he's out, then you can work on training him once the hormones aren't rushing through his system.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

Well according to the previous owners it took them 4 hours to get him as a 5 month old colt into the horse box. Then they drove about 40km with him and dropped him in the field he is now. He was all alone there until my mare came along. Well its a neighboring farm so was thinking of tacking a section of the fence down and leading my mare through as she is already halter and leading trained. Seb follows my mare everywhere. She treats him as if its her foal. There is just one full field to cross.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Be careful of him attacking whoever is leading the mare....VERY careful. Other than that it sounds fine.

What's the plan with the mare? I'm a little concerned that she's pregnant and doesn't sound like you have the knowledge to deal with that atm. It's great she's halter trained but that's the BARE minimum. As in that doesn't even mean much at all since it (should be) a given. Once the foals out the stud will be trying to get back to her so make sure he's gelded before then. No I don't think he's thinking of her as mom...at all.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Just want to add- if you do lead the mare and want him to follow DO carry a "weapon". I would suggest a lunge whip. and DO use it if he comes too close or acts aggressively.

That is THE best way to trigger an intact male, messing with "his" females.


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## Rehancke (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you, yes was thinking of taking my lunge whip. My mare is ground trained. Started backing her in October. She didn't buck or anything. She is a real sweet heart. The foal is due round end December. We laid out the new paddock etc this weekend so the guys are suppose to start with the constructions today. So all will be set as soon we will move them. Wish I could tranq him to move him, and have him cut the same day but will have to see what happens.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

GOOD LUCK!!! and do keep us posted. 

STAY SAFE. You cannot help Seb if you or your husband are hurt!


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Just FYI about the castration when/if you are able to have that done. 
You may not see an immediate change. You should see some change, yes, and possibly a dramatic change.... but it can take up to 30 days for _all _the current hormones to exit the system.
That's on any castration ...dogs, cats, goats, cattle, horses,..etc.

I'm also in agreement with the others about not letting him breed. The more he (or any intact animal) figures out what it's all about, the more likely they are to have small residual leftover behaviors. 
While that is not always the case, many animals who are castrated later in life tend to carry over behavior that are only associated with in tact animals. 

Part of the reason so many owners get their animals done before "puberty" hits.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Is there any way to chemically alter his state of mind or drop his testosterone through a fed supplement. I have hear old old timers using regumate and some other ways to do this on rank young stallions that the owners were unwilling to cut but still wanted worked with. Definitely get help if you can. You may have to have someone "cowboy" him a little bit. You need to find someone who isn't going to take his crap and can anticipate and correctly respond to any kind of aggressive behavior. I know a bunch of South Africans that have moved over here. I know they are out there. 

If you resort to forcing a halter on him, and squishing him in a chute, which doesn't have to be a miserable fight. It can definitely be stressful and can definitely turn into an all out war, but it can also go quick and easy too. This might be your only option.

As for the vet who the mare doesn't like.... This isn't the mare he will be dealing with. If she tries to eat him, put her elsewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I just love the one vet's idea of waiting until 2 so the horse gets a chance to experience it's hormones. You'd think it was the vet getting castrated, not the horse. Same stupidity as letting a cat have a batch of kittens before getting her spayed. What they don't know, they won't miss so why wait.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm somewhat "amused" that the vet doesn't want to deal with the mare because it doesn't like him.... I've never in my life met a vet who refused to deal with an animal - they get the job done regardless of how much the animal likes the procedure. When say doing a 2 day sale, a vet could have to review 300+ horses - heart/wind/limb exams... I have yet to see a vet refuse to examine a horse.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Take your mare to the new place. Leave the stud colt where he is at. Find a lovely broke horse you and your husband can enjoy now. Avoid a giant headache.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> I just love the one vet's idea of waiting until 2 so the horse gets a chance to experience it's hormones. You'd think it was the vet getting castrated, not the horse. Same stupidity as letting a cat have a batch of kittens before getting her spayed. What they don't know, they won't miss so why wait.


It's actually a pretty common thing in many animals, dogs in particular. Early spay/neuter frequently affects an animal's final growth, so a number of folks opt to wait until the animal is fully grown and sexually mature before altering them. It could be as late as a couple of years in some larger breeds, and there are health/behavioral pros and cons to it. I can understand the mindset as I have intact males (show dogs, so neutering isn't an option) and I've been surprised at how much bulking up one of them has done at close to two years. When you consider that many males can begin breeding at 6 months (I'd NEVER advise it) that's a fair amount of time to wait for full growth to occur. However, I would go so far as to say that a large majority of the general population is NOT responsible enough to properly manage an intact dog, so I still think that early spay/neuter is a good thing in many instances. And the mindset that a cat should have a litter before being spayed? Sigh...

Things are a LOT different with horses, however. Perhaps there are some physical benefits associated with waiting, but situations like this are a prime example of why gelding fairly early can be a huge help. Even an intact male dog is still pretty easy to manage if you have a fair amount of common sense and usually can't run you over. Stallions can be a whole world of trouble, especially when untrained!! 

Rehancke, I would ignore the person who inquired about breeding to this horse. That would open up a whole new can of worms, and it's not something you want happening when you're already having trouble with him! Just politely inform the person that his services are not available.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have to agree with most everyone else. He should be cut & quickly. Biting studs, well biting horses period can be dangerous, but studs more so cause they tend to be more aggressive. We cut our stud years ago & he is much happier than when he was a stallion, opened up many more opportunities for him also.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Quite a bit of time has gone by since the OP has been on. Wondering how everything has gone, since the mare should have been moved by now and also foaled. Hope she comes on to up date us on the situation.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

DuckDodgers said:


> Things are a LOT different with horses, however. Perhaps there are some physical benefits associated with waiting.


None- entire horses often mature a little shorter, thanks to testosterone production effect on growth plates & stallion bulk is lost when testosterone production ceases. The only reason to wait for gelding is if the colt hasnt dropped.

I hope Seb was gelded- better to have an outstanding gelding with a great pleasure/riding horse life style, than an average stallion with a crappy, domesticated stallion lifestyle.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Maple said:


> I'm somewhat "amused" that the vet doesn't want to deal with the mare because it doesn't like him.... I've never in my life met a vet who refused to deal with an animal - they get the job done regardless of how much the animal likes the procedure. When say doing a 2 day sale, a vet could have to review 300+ horses - heart/wind/limb exams... I have yet to see a vet refuse to examine a horse.


Let alone refuse to exam the mare but agree to work with a stallion like this.

There are also physical benefits of NOT waiting.

Stallions tend to be more muscular (which doesn't matter aside from "look"..) yet geldings tend to be taller.

Didn't Stacy Westfall geld a top quality stud simply so he could have a "normal" life?

I'd love an update if the OP is around, hopefully there are GOOD reasons for not updating!


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## Hayla (Feb 2, 2015)

I agree with those telling you to geld this horse.
Testosterone in Stallions really can make them dangerous.
Stallion handling is a skill that most horse owners are not prepared for.
Do it before the spring. Do not breed your mares. The economy cannot support all of the horses that are being bred. 
Take a look at the lists of horses going to slaughter. There are babies here. I know in the past they didn't slaughter babies but now that they ship our surplus horses to Mexico there are these cute yearling quarter horses going. Look at Yakima and click baby belles.
Then this other sick thing happens to this kill pen horses. People raise what they call 'bail' for the horse and everybody gets all warm and fuzzy thinking the horse is saved. But no home has been found for the horse. Nobody picks the horse up. It ships to slaughter anyway. Right now there is a 2 year old quarter horse there free to a home. I don't think anyone will go get him. There's nothing wrong with him. There is just no home.
So geld for population control and your safety.

Here is a link to the auction horses. There are about 50 a week that are young stock or sound riding horses with no home.

Home | Auction Horses


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