# Why does the trainer tie horse's lead line to tail



## Xela

A lot of people do this to "teach a horse to give to the bit"


----------



## Northern

I can imagine how it could teach a horse to resent humans.


----------



## equiniphile

Northern said:


> I can imagine how it could teach a horse to resent humans.


My thoughts exactly.

Can you maybe ask her about it? Maybe we're all missing something...are you sure she tied the head to the tail, she didn't have training equipment on him that you could have mistaken?


----------



## Cherie

It is not all that unusual, especially for trainers with too many horses and too little time or good assistants. It will teach a stiff, resistant horse to 'follow its nose' , but I personally think there are better ways.

Even more trainers tie a side rein to a girth or surcingle. I would think this trainer is much more moderate (if that is the right word) if he tied the lead from the halter noseband rather than a rein attached to the bit. 

The one positive thing it does that tying a side rein to a girth or surcingle does not do is it encourages the horse to bend its whole body as opposed to just bending and giving its head and neck.

I have seen unattended horses flip over if they fought this hard enough. There are better ways.

I like taking a long lead-rope and bringing it behind a horses rump and pulling the horse around to 'un-wrap' itself. It works very well to teach a horse to follow its nose and you can put as much pressure or release it as you do it.


----------



## lacyloo

It's actually pretty common. We have done it a time or two, although I wouldn't tie to the tail anymore, I spend to much time keeping it nice !



> I like taking a long lead-rope and bringing it behind a horses rump and pulling the horse around to 'un-wrap' itself. It works very well to teach a horse to follow its nose and you can put as much pressure or release it as you do it.


I love doing that.. I joke around and tell everyone "its separating the dumb horses from the smart ones"  

Ground driving is also another great way to teach a horse to give to pressure before starting.


----------



## crissy89

we tie the head to the side of the saddle to teach to give.....and then from there follow up with give and relise...OLD tricks..


----------



## smrobs

^^That's what I do too. It frees up some of my time to do other things or ride other horses while said horse is figuring out how to give to the bit. Of course, this is something that should never, ever be done on an unattended horse and never without reins that will break in an emergency. I don't necessarily agree with tying their head to their tail, but the principle is sound and very effective.


----------



## drafts4ever

We've done it to Legacy reins to a western saddle a couple times. It helps her get off her bad side and follow through with her body. Old tricks work!


----------



## Northern

Did you proponents of this ever consider that the horse's neck gets in a crick on one side, & overstretched on the other, at the least?

It's like doing a yoga posture waay too long - OUCCHH!


----------



## Buckcherry

I honestly think this is a lazy way to teach a horse. And quite frankly I would never do that. 
There are better ways and if you don't have time to train a horse properly then you shouldn't be training horses. 

I dont see how tying a horse head to the side and leaving him to figure it out is teaching him anything except not to like the bridle, bit or saddle beacuse they think your going to tie their head. Pretty ignorant..


----------



## TheLovedOne

I think that one good thing has come out of seeing trainers at your barn doing this is that you needn't hire them for anything since they are both lazy and incompetent. There are much better ways, as others point out, to do this and it doesn't take very long for a horse to learn it if you have good or at least decent skills. If you haven't got the time to do it right then you shouldn't do it all.


----------



## jwells84

Northern, I'd figure they'd do both sides or yes I think it might cause some uncomfortable neck problems.


----------



## Tasia

Yes it a common practice. Its to soften the horse and teach them to follow there nose. In my opinion its much more realalistic to tie the reins to the saddle. 
When I work with a horse that is not soft at all I usually sit there with them so I can release at the right moment.


----------



## smrobs

Northern said:


> Did you proponents of this ever consider that the horse's neck gets in a crick on one side, & overstretched on the other, at the least?
> 
> It's like doing a yoga posture waay too long - OUCCHH!


That's why watching and timing is so important. It's not like we tie them around and just leave them for hours at a time. We tie them and then watch. When they stop resisting, and they immediately give whenever they contact the bit, then I go and either switch sides or start working on something else like getting them ready to ride. Sometimes it takes just a few minutes to a side and other times it might take as much as a half hour to each side. Usually no more than that and none of the horse's I've ever used this on has shown any ill effects.



Buckcherry said:


> I honestly think this is a lazy way to teach a horse. And quite frankly I would never do that.
> There are better ways and if you don't have time to train a horse properly then you shouldn't be training horses.
> 
> I dont see how tying a horse head to the side and leaving him to figure it out is teaching him anything except not to like the bridle, bit or saddle beacuse they think your going to tie their head. Pretty ignorant..


Wow, offensive much:?? There is nothing lazy about it. It is a time saver, yes, but that doesn't mean that the trainer is going into the house to sit on their *** and watch TV while the horse is tied like that:roll:. As for "there are better ways"? That's a matter of opinion. I've been training for 10+ years and my Dad (who taught me) has been training for 50+ years. Other than the occasional outlaw horse, I have never had a horse that this method did not work on. It takes the human element out of it so there is no worry about making sure the human has the perfect timing to release pressure at just the right moment. 

Not to mention, this isn't an every day thing so there is no risk of the horse becoming scared of the saddle or bridle by associating it with being tied with their neck bent. I'll do it once on each side, maybe twice if the horse is one that needs things repeated in order to learn. After that, it is all reinforced from the saddle.



TheLovedOne said:


> I think that one good thing has come out of seeing trainers at your barn doing this is that you needn't hire them for anything since they are both lazy and incompetent. There are much better ways, as others point out, to do this and it doesn't take very long for a horse to learn it if you have good or at least decent skills. If you haven't got the time to do it right then you shouldn't do it all.


:lol: How long have you been a trainer? How many horses do you ride each day? Have you ever tried this method? Since when is it your place to call someone lazy and incompetent? As for "better ways" and "doing it right", that's a matter of opinion again. I'll take my personal experience over your preaching any day and my experience tells me that this method is effective and efficient. You don't agree with it, fine, but be careful about throwing a hissy fit and spouting words like 'incompetent' or 'lazy' about people you don't know.


----------



## SAsamone

I don't think this is a bad way of training depending on the horse and the situation entirely...so please excuse my ignorance when I ask this...

why do people HAVE to soften a horse's mouth to a bit? I've trained two fillies, and all I did was just stick the bit in their mouth and they knew what to do from there...granted, there was ALOT of ground work with leading exercises, and they may have been just two exceptional horses...but am I wrong to say that a horse that needs this type of training just hasn't been trained to give in the halter enough? I could be, so please don't be offended anyone, I'm honestly asking...


----------



## smrobs

Nothing offensive about asking SA. There are some horses that are good natured enough and mellow enough that they don't require much prep work to learn how to give to the bit. On the other hand, I get a lot of horses that are not so much as halter broke when they come to me and most of them are snorty and extremely reactive. By having them supple to lateral flexion before I ever get on, that greatly minimizes the risk of me getting hurt. Once you have a bit of handle on their head, that will usually take away a lot of their ability to unseat you. If they go to buck, you can take their head to the side and that takes away much of their power, if they spook and go to bolt or run off, you can get them shut down a lot quicker because they learn to follow their nose before they ever set foot out of the roundpen and you can effectively get them into a circle or a one rein stop.


----------



## SAsamone

Gracias


----------



## riccil0ve

Bahahahaa! Smrobs, lazy and incompetent? That's a good one. :rofl:

It's a tool, just like every other technique for horses out there, that just needs to be used correctly and not abused. Bending for thirty minutes never killed a horse. Just saying. =]


----------



## mls

Buckcherry said:


> I honestly think this is a lazy way to teach a horse. And quite frankly I would never do that.
> There are better ways and if you don't have time to train a horse properly then you shouldn't be training horses.


I agree. Lazy and dangerous. I don't care if it's to the tail, the saddle or any other equipment.

Pulling them around on top of you doesn't teach them either. Ride or work the horse. Get them doing something they enjoy and let the head set and give come naturally. It tends to stick with the horse too.


----------



## mls

smrobs said:


> Wow, offensive much:?? There is nothing lazy about it. It is a time saver, yes,


I'm sorry but I don't see this as offensive. I have also been training for more years than I care to admit. I have never tied a horse around. I can flex a horse from ground or saddle without any effort. We work until they do it naturally.

I do not see it as a time saver - a short cut that doesn't lay the foundation.

(Working at the clinic, I have seen a few horses come in requiring sutures or chiro work due to 'time savers'. In the long run it wasn't a time saver - or a money saver.)


----------



## TheLovedOne

smrobs said:


> :lol: How long have you been a trainer? How many horses do you ride each day? Have you ever tried this method? Since when is it your place to call someone lazy and incompetent? As for "better ways" and "doing it right", that's a matter of opinion again. I'll take my personal experience over your preaching any day and my experience tells me that this method is effective and efficient. You don't agree with it, fine, but be careful about throwing a hissy fit and spouting words like 'incompetent' or 'lazy' about people you don't know.


I have been teaching horses for about 40 years. I usually ride about 6-9 horses everyday. If I don't have the time to do something right then I don't do it. That goes for all things in my life. I'm sorry you take such offense but that is my opinion and the people that I have seen do this are not good with horses at all. This is just on of those "shortcuts" that people take to try and minimize costs. 

I don't think it is good for the horse and it is certainly not as good as me spending a few sessions teaching this which is way more beneficial for the horse and for the relationship that I am having with that horse. Did you enjoy grade school teachers that weren't fair with you. I doubt it very much and in fact it probably affected your ability to learn later in life.


----------



## TheLovedOne

mls said:


> I do not see it as a time saver - a short cut that doesn't lay the foundation.
> 
> (Working at the clinic, I have seen a few horses come in requiring sutures or chiro work due to 'time savers'. In the long run it wasn't a time saver - or a money saver.)


Exactly.


----------



## SPhorsemanship

I think it is hard to judge whether this method is right or wrong. Any method in the wrong hands can be wrong. Any method with the wrong horse can be wrong. If someone takes a green horse, ties it up with ropes and leaves it, I wouldn't call that a good training method. A horse could easily flip over or hurt its neck. I don't like over flexing a horse for to wrong, it will often teach them to brace against it-if the method isn't being used properly. This method should not be used to make a horse give in to dominance or used to impede the horse from showing signs that something in their training isn't right-eg. bucking or rearing. That would be a shortcut. With the wrong horse, this method could end in a disaster and even more so with the wrong person doing it. For people who know what they are doing, understand the horse they are training, and know the outcomes of such a method then it isn't wrong. If some inexperience person watched a training video that said to use this method and they went and tried it on their horse, then it would be wrong. I think this does help the horse understand giving to pressure but I don't think the rope should be too tight. There must also be some way of the system braking under force because a horse could hurt itself. 

This method isn't a method of training a horse to communicate with it's rider. This method is merely teaching a horse to give to pressure. Personally, I wouldn't use this method because I like being more involved. I wouldn't leave a horse tied up in a round pen...ever. I think that if you use this method, you should be with the horse. My version of this method would have me controlling the 'system' at the other end of the rope. I also really like ground driving. I hate using ropes to tie horses. I wouldn't use this method because I don't think that forcing 'give' brings a willing and obedient horse. You have to respect the horse. Respect isn't one way. You may get results but those results a the horse unwillingly submitting. 

This method should not be used as a time saver. Actually the tying the head to the tail and leaving it method shouldn't be used. The method that is o.k. is the method that teaches the horse to give to pressure with the trainer doing the training. Even if the trainer is doing the training, using the horse to teach itself can be a method in the training. It should not be done for long periods of time, the horse doesn't need to be tied up for 2 hours to be taught to give to pressure. If it takes that long, then that is not a good method. For this to be a good method it has to be part of the training with the trainer.


----------



## rbarlo32

Is ground driving Just long riening


----------



## SPhorsemanship

rbarlo32 said:


> Is ground driving Just long riening


Yes it is.


----------



## Northern

Tying the horse's head around most likely causes pain, boredom, & frustration, & there's the possibility of an accident. I'd like to think that all of that is enough for people to reconsider the practice. I also am especially concerned for the type of horse who "sucks it up", is quiet & nonresistant, but then "explodes" in panic/frustration.

Also, as others've said, this method removes the most important element in "training": the relationship. The dynamic is reduced to the purely mechanical. The horse'll try & find where his body & mouth are most comfortable while his head's held around: that's all.

smrobs, how does one get the horse's head sufficiently bent in order to tie it? Since the horse hasn't had the benefit of inch-by-inch learning to yield his head with a human helping him, how do you take a raw horse & get his head around? (or do I really want to know?)


----------



## SPhorsemanship

Northern said:


> Tying the horse's head around most likely causes pain, boredom, & frustration, & there's the possibility of an accident. I'd like to think that all of that is enough for people to reconsider the practice. I also am especially concerned for the type of horse who "sucks it up", is quiet & nonresistant, but then "explodes" in panic/frustration.


Or they could spook, hit the end of the rope and go over. It needs to be able to break-but wait then it might not work because with enough force the horse can free himself from being tied to himself. Why can't the trainer be part of this training?


----------



## whiskeynoo

In my honest opinion i feel every horse has an ideal training option that varies between horse to horse. One method may work on one horse but fail with another. I think it all comes down to being able to understand what kind of training that specific horse requires.


----------



## TheLovedOne

I think that there are techniques and then there are principles. It is both that develop the relationship and that is what helps to create an educated horse that is safe to ride. Using these "tricks" is no way to teach and I guess I think that there are right ways and wrong ways to teach a horse. Just like I don't agree with teachers hitting kids. That is definitely the wrong way. 

I think that if the human develops good skills then techniques can be modified and adjusted to fit a particular situation or horse. But I don't think that tying up a horse to teach it to bend is a good technique and it clearly violates my principles.


----------



## lacyloo

Northern said:


> Tying the horse's head around most likely causes pain, boredom, & frustration, & there's the possibility of an accident. I'd like to think that all of that is enough for people to reconsider the practice. I also am especially concerned for the type of horse who "sucks it up", is quiet & nonresistant, but then "explodes" in panic/frustration.
> 
> Also, as others've said, this method removes the most important element in "training": the relationship. The dynamic is reduced to the purely mechanical. The horse'll try & find where his body & mouth are most comfortable while his head's held around: that's all.
> 
> smrobs, how does one get the horse's head sufficiently bent in order to tie it? Since the horse hasn't had the benefit of inch-by-inch learning to yield his head with a human helping him, how do you take a raw horse & get his head around? (or do I really want to know?)


They way I have seen it, You just walk with the horse as he's turning. He will stop- you tie, he gives and its done.


----------



## lacyloo

This is just another one of those training techniques that is made out to sound cruel.


----------



## Northern

Ok, thanks. That's sad, because the horse was trusting you & laterally flexing already(!!) & your reward was to tie him flexed INSTEAD OF REWARD WITH A RELEASE!

So, whether you do it the sneaky way, or just pulley crank his head around, ON THE OUTSET, you've violated the relationship principles of horsemanship:

1) Don't by sneaky with your horse.
2) REWARD the slightest try.
3) It's about the relationship, not mechanical control/dominance.
4) Ask yourself if you'd like the treatment that you're giving to your horse: would it be painful, frightening, frustrating, boring, dangerous?


----------



## TheLovedOne

I do not remember reading any posts about this being cruel. I've read things about it being a less than good technique, that it is dangerous, and that people who do it are just lazy.


----------



## lacyloo

I admit I have used this method before. It didn't turn into a disaster or anything like that, the horse never seemed sore- nor did she hate me.

Although I have no intentions of doing it again, just because I would rather be the one asking the horse to "give" and I can reward on time with the release.


----------



## lacyloo

TheLovedOne said:


> I do not remember reading any posts about this being cruel. I've read things about it being a less than good technique, that it is dangerous, and that people who do it are just lazy.


 They will come, I'm sure. :wink:


----------



## Northern

lacyloo said:


> the horse never seemed sore- nor did she hate me. *How would she let you know that she's sore? Picket in front of your house? JK! She could have had a bummer of an experience, but horses live in the moment, & just try to get along.*
> 
> Although I have no intentions of doing it again, just because I would rather be the one asking the horse to "give" and I can reward on time with the release.


Hoo-RAY! GLAD to hear it!


----------



## lacyloo

Knowing that horse, she probably would have. :lol:


----------



## TheLovedOne

But even if someone did say that it's cruel, I don't think that is a sin. I mean how else will we or do we change. It's only when someone says something that makes us look at things differently. I think that we're always changing our physical self, intellectual self, etc. Imagine if we were unable to do that. Probably would have died out a long time ago. It is our ability to change that keeps us progressing. 

I would not want to do something that is confusing for horse or human. Hey I'm not perfect but I try to do what is right with the knowledge I have. If it seems wrong or I might not know something then I research it.


----------



## Northern

Right, I know the type: picketing with one hoof, & making an appointment for a chiro visit, on her cell, with the other!


----------



## Cherie

Would someone like to explain the difference between this and the Spanish Riding School and every other dressage trainer I have ever known that uses side reins and then there are the Dressage trainers that force a horse into 'Rollkur' as a method to teach 'giving to rein pressure'.





How is checking a horse's head around to one side worse that this video and a hundred more just like it?

I personally have found better ways to get a resistant, stiff horse to give to rein pressure, but I am not going to condemn trainers that use judgment and do check horses to each side. I see no harm unless done to an extreme or for too long -- all bad judgment and poor training.

In my humble opinion, the worst things that can be done to a horse's mouth and psyche are done by a bad pair of hands on the reins. Get real people -- bad hands are far more prevalent and do far more damage than this training technique. It is not a product of lazy trainers. I know many trainers that think checking a horse's head is most effective because the horse always gives himself relief where a rider's hands does not always reward a horse giving to the pressure. It is probably a lot better than a bad pair of hands.


----------



## EveningShadows

Wooooowwww...

I've personally never used this method, but I wouldn't think twice if I was handed a rank youngster to start. Most of the horses I've trained I raised and a home raised youngster is MUCH different than one chased in from the field.

I think it depends on the horse and the trainer as to if this method is appropriate. I think dragging rollkur into this topic is overkill as I believe what the OP was implying was a short 5-10 minute session with a young horse first learning to give to pressure on the bit, not repeated sessions of OVERflexing. 

To call this training method "mean" or "abusive" to the horse is the same as leaving them tied in a trailer at a show. Something bad COULD happen. Absolutely. Could get a leg over, flip, get caught in a hay net...and at the show, you might not be near them! With this method, we're talking a MAXIMUM of 60 minutes total, often less than 10 minutes, with you standing RIGHT THERE watching and waiting. 1-2 sessions depending on the horse, and then probably never again...I'm sorry, this will not cause chronic lameness in your horse unless you REALLY mess it up!

And what about teaching a horse to tie using a belly rope? Is that mean too? I've been hit with a hitching post before. Been throw from a stall compliments of a flying manger. Any horse of mine that HAULED back when tied was put on a patience post with a belly rope...yes I want my training methods fair and respectful to the horse, but my safety and life has to be respected as well.

No not everyone will agree this is a useful method for some horses/trainers, but to call it mean is overkill. Personally, I think it would be more effective with first and second sessions - the release is ALWAYS instant. Our hands are slow, even the fastest hands are slow. Our reaction time with our releases are nowhere near as instant than the release that will come when the rein is tied and the horse gives. 

Not a method I've used yet, but would consider it in the future if my personal methods weren't enough.


----------



## AlexS

oops Cherie, there was a Western rider at the end of your video.


----------



## Cherie

I think it is more useful on thick necked, stiff and resistant horses. Since I now only train well bred home raised horses, I just don't have to fight any resistant stubborn horses any more. 

Years ago, like 40 or 45 years ago, I would check a spoiled horse's head around, but only very slightly. I found I would rather have a horse that could give only slightly and he would give himself a slack rein. I also used an 'overcheck' at the same time because I did not want the horse to find relief by lowering his head. Then, I found better ways to achieve better results and finally found better horses. We started raising better horses with more ability and much better dispositions and a greater level of trainability and less natural resistance. To me, this is the greatest improvement in horses training over the years --- not the trainers as much as the better horses. 

The only reason I brought Rollkur into it and bad hands is because of the snide cracks about lazy trainers and what a terrible method it is and how only bad trainers would do this. There are techniques and riders that make lightly checking a horse's head around look great.


----------



## Cherie

Did I ever say Western riders never put horses behind the vertical? There are plenty of them and it is the biggest current complaint that I have about modern reining training and showing. You ought to try to fix these trainer's 'flunkout' that have learned to fold up and get so far behind the bit that they can run off or sull up and dare you to find a way to get them to stop.

I never used a harsh gag bit until I tried to fix a spoiled reining flunkout and could not find a way to get his head up until, in desperation, I tried a gag snaffle with a wire headstall. It worked and the horse made a pretty nice horse -- not a reiner -- but a pretty nice horse and he was headed to the dinner plate when I got him.


----------



## AlexS

Wow. Is about all I have to say.


----------



## christopher

i'm with cherie and smrobs to a degree. though this is not a perfect method, there is no such thing as a perfect method. as there is no such thing as a perfect human, and no such thing as a perfect horse. occasionally i use this when i'm putting a horse in a snaffle for the first time, i bend the horse about 45 degrees and tie it there. not asking for a huge flexion, as in my opinion this method isn't a way of teaching flexion, just a way of teaching the horse to yield to the bit. it can be dangerous, so i wouldn't do it on a windy day when a bag or something scary could float by, i'd do my best to minimize distractions and i'd always be close by with a knife in pocket. this isn't at all for teaching vertical flexion (so i'd never tie 2 reins at once). and imo it's not for teaching lateral flexion, as the horse should already know lateral flexion before you do it, but it is a great way of teaching the horse to yield to a snaffle.

and of course some people are simply emulating this method, but they're using their hands to do it. and human hands can never give the horse pressure/release as perfectly as the horse can give itsself pressure/release.

it's really the same as teaching a horse to stand tied, except the pressure doesn't come from a fixed location, so the horse doesn't have to move its feet to accomodate that, it just has to give to the bit with it's neck/head.

i think people tie to the tail to make it a bit more uncomfortable when the horse pulls, and i'm told it makes the horse bend more with it's whole spine/ribs instead of just with it's neck. i wouldn't do that though.


----------



## Buckcherry

I agree with the fact that it defeats the whole purpose of a relationship with your horse. I would much rather interact with him while training. 

My thing is there is not type of give or release when the horse does give to the bit I dont see how it teaches the horse anything. At least when ground driving when the horse gives to the pressure you can reward by releasing. 

I think the only thing it will teach is to be hard on the mouth because they aren't recieving any reward for doing what they are asked.


----------



## candandy49

IMO the rollkur is so extremely cruel and inhumane. First to explain the reasoning behind tying a horse's head to it's tail, not with bridle and reins, but only a halter and lead is to help soften up a stiff sided horse. All horses are either left or right handed just like us humans. The horse's neck is not put in a compromising position as it is a whole body follow thorough technique. IMO it should never be done as a effort to make the horse accepting of a bit. Only to help the horse give to it's weaker side. Training sessions in this manner should not encompass more than 30 min or at least than an hour. It is in no way a short-cut to training a youngster. It does have a valid reason.


----------



## equus717

I have used this method. As long as you are there and watching in case of something happening their isn't any harm in it. I don't tie their head to their tails I tie off to the saddle. To start with I put only a slight bend in their neck because you can't ask them to bend to their bellies on the first go. As soon as they give I take it off and do it once on the other side. I usually don't use this method until they are comfortable with a bit and saddle on them. I also do this inside my barn aisle. 

I never used this until another trainer friend of mine showed me how to do it properly without hurting the horse. I normally only do it for 2 sessions just long enough for them to get the idea and then I will start them doing it with my hands.


----------



## Jacksmama

Personally, I would not do this. Done properly teaching them to flex and give by hand is very effective. Yes, if you are hanging on the rein with all your weight you're not going to release very quickly, but if you make a "wall" with your hand on the rein as soon as they give they still release themselves, it's exactly the same as tying them without the added danger of tying them up like that. IME, 2-3 5 min sessions is plenty to get them bending around to touch their belly at a very slight pressure on the ground and in the saddle when you get to that point. I make sure they bend, flex, and disengage quarters and move away from pressure on the ground, never tying them like that. Maybe I'm just one of the fluffy trainers but I don't teach to tie with a belly rope either. 

I do want to say one thing in regards to several of the previous posts. Some have been saying it's been working for years and years it's a good method. That just doesn't fly with me. Are you saying that just because it's been done for years there isn't a better method? We used trepanning to cure schizophrenia and depression for generations, but eventually we figured out drilling a hole through the skull wasn't the best way. That may be an extreme example, and I am not saying that tying them is the WRONG way, I'm just saying we should be open to new ways of doing things that may have more benefits in the long run.


----------



## christopher

Buckcherry said:


> My thing is there is not type of give or release when the horse does give to the bit I dont see how it teaches the horse anything. At least when ground driving when the horse gives to the pressure you can reward by releasing.


i can understand what your saying, but it isn't right. the horse does find it's own release as the process of giving it's head slackens the rein it's tied with.

the point of tying the rein is to fix it's location, which removes literally all variables other than the horses head itsself, as the rein simply can't lengthen/shorten. so the horse learns that the rein will not give nomatter how much he moves his feet or how much he pulls on it, so the only way of making it more comfortable for himself is if he gives.

this is really no different to teaching your horse to stand tied. other than the fact that this removes his feet from the equation, as when he's tied to something else he can either move his feet to get out of the pressure when it comes on, move his head, or pull (which is uncomfortable). but in this case moving his feet does nothing so the only way of getting out of this pressure is to move his head.

standing tied isn't something that's considered cruel, and i can't see how bitting up is much different to standing tied (the only difference being in one we expect the whole horse to yield and in the other we expect only the head to yield). so the notion of this being ineffective and/or cruel is ridiculous IMO.


----------



## equus717

True it isn't the only way. But if a trainer has many horses they are working in a day they may go with the quickest route to get things accomplished. I only train my own horses. There are several ways to train a horse. Some are harsh some isn't. I don't follow any one particular trainer. I watch Cox, Parelli, Clinton, and others as well. And find what techniques work for me because also no two horses train a like.


----------



## christopher

Jacksmama said:


> but if you make a "wall" with your hand on the rein as soon as they give they still release themselves


not specifically, because human hands will never replicate a wall better than a timber (walls are made of timber) or fibreglass (some walls are made of fibreglass) saddle tree.

i'm not defensive of this method because it's better than others or because it's the best etc. in fact i rarely rarely rarely do it myself, i just don't like the fact that some people have entirely closed their horsemanship aresenal of strategies and techniques to this (entirely respectable) method.


----------



## Jacksmama

I can respect your opinion. I think for me the fact that if a horse really set to and wanted to fight this, they could cause themselves a huge amount of damage and I wouldn't be able to get to them to release it once they start to fight and spin. I know the objective is to teach them to give to the bit/pressure but the prospect of them ripping their mouths up is too risky IMO.


----------



## christopher

that's the reason i don't do it often


----------



## Ladytrails

Just like anything else, if done correctly this has its place in a training toolkit and if done poorly, the horse can be injured. I've used one of my long lines with quick release knot instead of a rein and snap/knot and held the end so that if we got into trouble, I could release from 20 feet away. In my case, this helped my very dull horse to respond to lighter pressure on the bit ( I had desensitized TOO much). It also helped him with balance, and confidence, as they can walk around with flexed neck if done right, and they learn to trust you with the weird things you do to them. At the same time, another horse I know about had a previous neck injury and went nuts when he was flexed like this. He went over backwards and hurt his neck again. I agree with smbrobs and Christoper and Cherie's posts - you have to be right there, ready to release. And this is something they should learn from; leaving this equipment on for more than a few minutes is not a learning session. 

When I was reading these posts, I agree with those who point out that bad hands, and other training devices can be so much harder on the horse than this method. For example, what about draw reins? I have never seen a happy horse in draw reins..... but maybe it's because I've never seen a great rider using them.


----------



## TheLovedOne

Teaching a horse is fluid. I cannot think of a single technique that involves tying a horse up and walking away that is a teaching tool. That would be like putting duct tape over a baby's mouth because it's screaming and then just walk away and that'll learn them. Nonsense. It is better to employ strategies that involve an interaction to achieve a response that you want in an interaction. After all that is why you are doing this ... to get a response that is part of an interaction. 

As far as bad hands go ... why would anyone with bad hands attempt teaching a horse.... please stop this right now.


----------



## SAsamone

The only time I ever heard of someone tying a horse up and leaving it, was a REALLY old school trainer, who tied a horse up and left it under a tree to teach it how to tie, because it broke halters and stuff. He put hay and food out and made it short enough so it wouldn't trip and stuff, but I'm not sure exactly what I think about that one....it worked, but i don't know...I'm not big on leaving a horse with anything on it, even a halter, unattended for a matter of time...they're just not smart enough when it comes to not getting into trouble lol.


----------



## crissy89

No cuz it uses thoes mucels to stretch them and work with them but horses constantly use there neck mucles...(sorry not the best speller in the world I know this you dont have to tell me)ok and thanks.


----------



## crissy89

thats why I sit out there and watch them for how ever long it takes and they are keeped in a round pen for there safty...every one trains there own way and what works from them...I learned from my dad witch he learnd from his and his so it is nothing but a long line of old school tricks.(tricks of the trade) lol safe riding.


----------

