# All horse slaughter closed down in Mexico and Canada today



## barrelbeginner

great


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## bsms

A 90 lb bale never dropped below $17 this year. I won't be surprised if it hits $25 this winter. At 3, I have one more horse than I use, but I'm sure I could get a bunch for free this winter...

:>(


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## barrelbeginner

hay here is almost to 400$ a ton.. we used to get it for 50.. its getting pretty bad:/


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## EthanQ

Great...I say we start unloading these unwanted horses into the yards (or mroe commonly, apartment buildings) of these anti slaughter nuts, who've really never even owned a horse. They don't want them going to the killers, then they can take care of them.


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## EthanQ

And I know Obama has lifted the ban on horse slaughter in Us, but have any actually been opened?


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## Cherie

Fact check time ---

There never was a ban on horse slaughter here in the US.

Local laws (actually state laws) shut down every plant that was still open (only 3 of them -- One in Ill and 2 in Texas) in 2007.

About that same time, the animal rights nuts got Congress to 'de-fund' USDA Inspectors for horse slaughter. The slaughter facilities and meat MUST be inspected in order for it to be shipped or sold across state lines or exported to EU countries.

Obama signed a bill (not of his origin) that allowed USDA slaughter inspectors to once inspect horse slaughter facilities. There is still one glitch in the system. The Republican house has refused to fund it. American investors that want to open plants in the US are trying to get permission to pay the USDA inspectors out of THEIR pockets and not from USDA funds. So far that has not happened. If you want US plants to open, try writing your Congressmen and beg them to either fund the USDA inspectors or let the Plant owners pay the bill (which they are willing to do but current laws will not let them.)

There is a 501 c-3 set up to lobby for humane slaughter in the US and to help put investors together with those wanting see slaughter restored. They are called the 'International Equine Business Association'. I am not a member, but I am on their e-mail list and it is their E-mail that told me that the Canadian and Mexican plants were shut down yesterday.

The investors wanting to open plants here in the US have already either purchased existing plants and will convert them to 'fit' processing horses or have found closed or existing plants that can be set up for horses. No one is going to spend the money to get them ready without laws letting USDA inspectors inspect the plants and the meat.

The EU is not the only buyer either. Japan, South Korea and SE Asia are also on board to purchase meat as are Eastern European countries. Within 3 months, laboratories will be set up to test live horses and meat for any drug or chemical residues. It is already set up to micro-chip horses to identify each horse and the meat from that horse. 

It is way past due. I just hope it gets set up and done.


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## lilruffian

It's nice to hear this. I dont support the slaughter houses but i do not hate or blame them either. They are necessary because it's stupid, irresponsible people who continue to breed horses for no purpose other than to "see the cute baby when it's born." that are the problem. There is just no space for them and shelters are expensive to run. 
I've had experiences with a few "breeding farms" in the past that had no clue what they were doing but continued to breed a minimum of 10 registered mares a year (none of which were broke or had any show training), halter broke them in the spring & then never touched them.
In the end they got too overwhelmed and ended shipping nearly all their horses to auction, where i can guarentee most went for meat.


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## natisha

The same number of horses were slaughtered each year with or without USA plants. It didn't make some people make responsible decisions. Now maybe this will.

As for anti-slaughter people always being guilted to jump in & save the discards, why should they? Each horse was owned by someone, that someone should be responsible. I don't expect anyone else to take care of my horses.


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## natisha

Status of American horse slaughter trade still uncertain - News - Horsetalk.co.nz

Is it possible to have a true & accurate account of everything that was administered in a horse's lifetime?


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## Cherie

This has nothing to do with breeders and it has nothing to do with 'responsible decisions'. It has everything to do with property ownership and property rights. It has everything to do with the fact that a horse may have 10 or 20 different owners after it is bred. It is livestock and it is personal property. It is not your child and it is not something that anyone can be held responsible for 25 or 30 years after it has been raised and sold the first time.

A horse has value (or at least they used to have value) and that value is determined by the free enterprise / free market system. Good grief, we cannot MAKE people be humane and responsible for their own lives and those of their children. We cannot MAKE people stay from behind the wheel of a car when they are drunk or high. Heck, they drive drunk with their own children in their cars. Have laws stopped that?

Do you really think you can pass enough laws AND have them declared Constitutional that restrict property rights? Do you really think you can force someone to not die or lose their job or any other number of circumstances beyond anyone's control that causes an expensive, eating piece of property like a horse to NOT HAVE TO BE SOLD?

Get real people. Think with your head and not your hearts. 

Meanwhile, give us your shipping address and we will send you the next truckload to feed forever that is turned down at the border.


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## bsms

For my part, I plan on thinking with my head after my head consults my heart. If Mia needed a $10K operation which only had a 50% chance of success, it would be a tough call for me. But if she went mildly lame and couldn't be ridden again but wasn't in pain, I'd get a long lead rope and we'd continue going out for walks together. And when her time comes, I'd shoot her with my own 357 before I'd ship her to Mexico for a few hundred dollars.

But the sad truth is that a lot of folks who own horses don't seem to like them much. Yet you cannot blame the breeders. I wasn't a rider in 2000, but I gather the market was pretty good then. A horse bred in a good market, a "wanted horse" with no trouble finding a buyer, is now only 12.

In fact, Mia was bred in 2000 & born in 2001. Sweepstake nominated purebred Arabian mare out of Gazarr:_"According to his owner, Gazarr has sired 9 National Champions, with grand-get that have been winning & several that are National Champions, then the great grand-get such as Esquire as a US TT winner along with many other great-grand-get doing as well!

Gazarr's daughter Revelrie (out of the Cross-U-Bar bred mare NA Nusiata & Esquire's grand-dam) not only was a Two time Scottsdale Top Ten Mare (1983 & 1986) She also was Region 1 Top 5 mare, a Halter Champion Mare & Jr. Champion filly. Revelrie's full brother, Revelation+ was a Canadian National finalist in 1983, a US National Finalist 1982, received his Legion of Honor, Region 1 Top 5 Stallion 1982, Region 4 Top 5 Stallion 1979, Pacific Slope Top 5 Stallion 1979 & 1982, English Pleasure Champion, Blue Western Pleasure with 19 Halter Championships.

Most likely Gazarr's most noted son, Zarr Hassan +/ (out of Belleza), was 1982 Canadian National Champion Stallion, 1982 US National Reserve Champion Stallion, US Top Ten Stallion 1980, 1982, 1983, Canadian Top 10 Stallion 1981 & 1982, Received his Legion of Supreme Honor, Region 1 Champion Stallion 1982, Region 2 Top 5 Stallion 1980, Pacific Slope Top 5 1980, and also had 17 Halter Championships."
_​I have no personal idea if that is good breeding, but it indicates she wasn't the backyard project of someone who wasn't paying attention to which horses were boys and which were girls...

Yet her current market value is nil. When I started walking her in the desert last November, it was obvious she didn't know to lift her feet over a small rock. She would snort and blow at a 6" gully. With help from a good trainer and a lot of work, she's getting better. We recently made some of our first solo trips into the desert, even if they were only 1/2 mile. Today we galloped about 1/3 of a mile up a trail. OK, I had been thinking a canter...we still have some times like that. But it only took about 100 yards to stop her, and afterward she trotted or walked as asked. So we went back to the beginning and tried again. OK, another gallop. She's still a work in progress...

So she's a spooky mare just beginning to learn to go alone on a trail. She despises kids and needs a confident rider - which I am not, although I try to fake it sometimes. But I couldn't market her as good for kids, or "husbands" (tho I be one), or beginners, or trail riding or cattle or...see the point? She is darn near worthless on today's market.

Not her fault, and not the fault of those who bred her. I'd bet in 2001, someone was hoping good things for her. It happens. She was given to a charity 4 years ago as a tax write-off, and I bought her on a whim. Had no idea what I was doing. Four years and a back injury later, we're finally getting to a point where I feel optimistic about our future. Four years, some pain and more work and training bills than I ever guessed later, and we're still just starting to do short solo rides.

She has been worth it to me, but the trainer who worked with her said a LOT of clients would have auctioned her off long ago. But that wasn't the breeder's fault. The breeding took place in 2000, and the breeder had no idea that 12 years later Mia would be a horse with no market value.

THAT is the challenge that drives the slaughterhouses. And with the price of hay and winter coming on and the economy, I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of horses who are better riding horses than Mia, but who will end up in dire straights.


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## natisha

Cherie said:


> This has nothing to do with breeders and it has nothing to do with 'responsible decisions'. It has everything to do with property ownership and property rights. It has everything to do with the fact that a horse may have 10 or 20 different owners after it is bred. It is livestock and it is personal property. It is not your child and it is not something that anyone can be held responsible for 25 or 30 years after it has been raised and sold the first time.
> 
> A horse has value (or at least they used to have value) and that value is determined by the free enterprise / free market system. Good grief, we cannot MAKE people be humane and responsible for their own lives and those of their children. We cannot MAKE people stay from behind the wheel of a car when they are drunk or high. Heck, they drive drunk with their own children in their cars. Have laws stopped that?
> 
> Do you really think you can pass enough laws AND have them declared Constitutional that restrict property rights? Do you really think you can force someone to not die or lose their job or any other number of circumstances beyond anyone's control that causes an expensive, eating piece of property like a horse to NOT HAVE TO BE SOLD?
> 
> Get real people. Think with your head and not your hearts.
> 
> Meanwhile, give us your shipping address and we will send you the next truckload to feed forever that is turned down at the border.


See, again you want someone else to step in & clean up the mess. By the way, there are groups setting up rescue missions for those turned away at the border if it comes to that. 
The borders aren't shut down so it would be easy for someone to feedlot the horses for a while then lie about where they came from.

I'm personally anti-slaughter but I don't legislate to have it shut down or kept open. I just won't ever use it as an out.

You're right, people can do what they want with their own animals but that doesn't include dropping them at my doorstep when they can't do what they want. A little off topic but I hope you'll see my point: I had a neighbor that was going to put his dog to sleep because it had urinary tract infection that he wasn't going to treat for whatever reason. I declined his offer to give it to me. He put the dog to sleep & later said it was my fault for not taking _his_ dog. His dog, his responsibility, his choice.

There are tons of laws that restrict property rights.

Horses are livestock but because they aren't a usual food source like cattle, they aren't medically monitored like cattle. Heck, some horses even lose their registation papers as they move around. How many owners does a steer have in it's short life compared to most old horses?

This issue isn't about slaughter vs anti-slaughter. It's about people not wanting to eat tainted meat. Even if every State had a slaughter plant it wouldn't change that fact.

Remember Dipyrone? Do we want that to happen to medications we routinely give our horses?


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## Cherie

I hate to break the news to you but many cattle get more medication and get many more vaccinations pumped into them before they are slaughtered than most horses do.

There are more calf-hood and breeding stock vaccinations than horses get -- 3 or 4 times more.
Here is a partial list for breeding cattle:
IBR -- Annual (killed or intranasal)
BVD -- Annual
PI3 -- Annual
BRSV -- Annual
Leptospirosis (5-Way) -- Annual (every 3 to 6 months in some areas)
Vibriosis -- Annual (30 to 60 days before breeding)
Trichomoniasis -- Annual (30 to 60 days before breeding)
E. coli -- Vaccinate cows (twice 30 days before calving)
Pinkeye -- As needed
Blackleg 7-Way -- Annual
Anthrax -- Optional -- As directed
Anaplasmosis -- As directed

Here is the list for calves:

Blackleg 7-Way -- Preweaning
IBR-BVD-PI3 -- Preweaning
Leptospirosis -- Preweaning
Brucellosis -- Heifers (4 to12 months)
BRSV -- As needed
Pasteurella -- Preweaning
Haemophilus somnus -- Preweaning
Pinkeye -- As needed
Anthrax -- As directed
Anaplasmosis -- As needed

As for medications --- 

Cattle, particularly calves being weaned and those going into feed-lots are given antibiotics to PREVENT diseases -- whether they need them or not.

Same cattle are fed medicated feed to prevent disease -- mainly respiratory infections.

Cattle that still get sick are given huge amounts of antibiotics. It is thought that most resistance to antibiotics we are now seeing in humans is because of all of the antibiotic residue we ingest in meat. Not only that, Vets regularly give Bute to cattle for pain and inflammation. When a cow does not get up after being down for too long calving, Bute is used for the treatment to help get her up. I went over to a neighbor's place a while back to give his downed cow a shot of Bute so the cow would not die. [He owed the Vet too much to call him out.] All of these older cows that are saved by Bute go to the sale as soon as the calf is weaned unless they lost the calf when they went down -- in which case go to the sale as soon as they are able to get around -- Bute and all. They are called 'cutters and canners', sell for $.50 to $.70 a pound and go into lunch meat, potted meat and hamburger. Cheers!!!

Probably the only horses that come close to getting the amount of medication in them are recently off-the-track race horses. Most neglected horses get no medication of any kind -- they are neglected.


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## WickedNag

But it is my understanding European countries don't buy our cattle for the same reason. I am all for having slaughter houses but.... I think we are a day late and a dollar short on this one. The EU doesn't want our horses because of drugs we give them and some of those drugs are never allowed to be given to a horse for human consumption. I hate to see where we are headed but opening slaughter up in the US will not IMO make any difference... we will not have anyone buying.


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## natisha

Cherie said:


> I hate to break the news to you but many cattle get more medication and get many more vaccinations pumped into them before they are slaughtered than most horses do.


You didn't break any news to me. That's why the whole organic meat thing started. 
We were discussng what other Countries don't want in their horsemeat over the horse's lifetime. How is that possible to regulate or prove? 

I do wonder why this has happened now & so fast with no warning? They've been eating USA horsemeat for a long time. There is no mention of a study or anything showing it is bad.


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## WickedNag

This was well discussed in another area of the forum and horses raised for food have to have a passport stating it is raised for food and not allowed certain drugs. I would imagine they periodically test and probably fine hugely for infractions.


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## natisha

WickedNag said:


> This was well discussed in another area of the forum and horses raised for food have to have a passport stating it is raised for food and not allowed certain drugs. I would imagine they periodically test and probably fine hugely for infractions.


But here (USA) we don't raise horses only for food.
Every one of my horses would be dead right now if it weren't for drugs they received at some point in their lives.

Government in our horse's daily health care too?!


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## WickedNag

natisha said:


> But here (USA) we don't raise horses only for food.
> Every one of my horses would be dead right now if it weren't for drugs they received at some point in their lives.
> 
> Government in our horse's daily health care too?!


No I agree with you Natisha I am just stating facts. So our horses because they are not raised for food don't appeal the the market and they don't want them. I will give my horses what they need to stay healthy and happy. I don't plan on eating them not young or old. I was just stating the why  And it wasn't all of a sudden but it was to go off the books in 2013 from what I understand so they needed to start enforcing it.


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## Gremmy

There has been a HUGE amount of warning leading up to this, the EU has been tightening up on the tainted meat issue for years.


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## deserthorsewoman

Being a horseperson from Europe I can explain how the passport works, or is supposed to work there. All horses born from 2008 on have to be microchipped, older horses who will be sold, also. The passport has been around for much longer. As owner or buyer of a horse you'll have to declare the horse for human consumption or not for human consumption. If you declare for human consumption EVERY medical treatment must be recorded in the passport by a vet. And is restricted to drugs who leave no residue. So most owners declare non human consumption to have all treatment options. 
Having lived in Italy I've seen many many racehorses going off to slaughter, straight off the track, regardless of what the passport says. There are killbuyers who have tons of passports who fit just about any horse out there. Apparently chip controls are rather rare at slaughter facilities. 

I wouldn't have my horse sent off to slaughter, but I see the need for slaughter facilities. 
As long as there is a greater supply than demand, they unwanted ones have to go somewhere. 
The demand for horsemeat is there, Italy even breeds for slaughter.

I remember small butchershops in Germany for horses only, and the butcher would either let the owner hold the horse for the shot or hand him the halter right after the kill. Some of them even would come out to the owners place with a trailer, load the horse, shoot it, bleed it and take it away. Least stress and one can be sure the horse doesn't go on a long grueling trip to eventual death.


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## faye

deserthorsewoman, you are right on all bt one point.
You do not have to declaire whether your horse is for human consumption or not untill it has drugs that make it unable to enter the food chain. A vet cannot administer any drugs untill they have seen/signed the passport.
One cannot travel, compete or sell any horse without a passport.

Natisha, in the UK we very easily know what animals have been given. we have far stricter control of medications and who can administer them, we have passports and microchips without which a horse cannot be traveled, competed or sold. 
Even cattle over here is passport controlled and doesnt get anywhere near the same amount of crap put in thier system as they do over in the US (hence why you cannot by american beef in the EU)


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## deserthorsewoman

Faye, maybe it's different in the UK, in Italy you have to declare once you want anything, like the Coggins, entered by the state vet office in the passport and they won't sign anything until the declaration is done. They even threaten to confiscate your horse. Every barnowner has to report how many horses are boarded. But being Italy, they have more ways to go around and crooked than they have laws ....which I don't mean in the bad way....Italians can be pretty ingenious


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## faye

we dont have to worry about coggins here in the UK.


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## natisha

deserthorsewoman said:


> Being a horseperson from Europe I can explain how the passport works, or is supposed to work there. All horses born from 2008 on have to be microchipped, older horses who will be sold, also. The passport has been around for much longer. As owner or buyer of a horse you'll have to declare the horse for human consumption or not for human consumption. If you declare for human consumption EVERY medical treatment must be recorded in the passport by a vet. And is restricted to drugs who leave no residue. So most owners declare non human consumption to have all treatment options.
> Having lived in Italy I've seen many many racehorses going off to slaughter, straight off the track, regardless of what the passport says. There are killbuyers who have tons of passports who fit just about any horse out there. Apparently chip controls are rather rare at slaughter facilities.
> 
> I wouldn't have my horse sent off to slaughter, but I see the need for slaughter facilities.
> As long as there is a greater supply than demand, they unwanted ones have to go somewhere.
> The demand for horsemeat is there, Italy even breeds for slaughter.
> 
> I remember small butchershops in Germany for horses only, and the butcher would either let the owner hold the horse for the shot or hand him the halter right after the kill. Some of them even would come out to the owners place with a trailer, load the horse, shoot it, bleed it and take it away. Least stress and one can be sure the horse doesn't go on a long grueling trip to eventual death.


Wow, that is a much better way to do it. On this side of the pond it is more of a production line. 
The horses may not know of death as we know it but they sure know something bad is about to happen as they are hustled through chutes, smell blood, hear screams & panic on their way to the kill box. This after they've traveled under less than ideal conditions.
Plenty of YouTube videos to verify this.


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## deserthorsewoman

I also saw something rather nice, if anything which has to do with death can be considered nice, in Italy. If a horse is euthanized, it can't be buried. A truck picks it up to be cremated. I asked one if the truckdrivers what the process is. Its a small truck, with sort of a trunk, horse size. Carcass is being pulled in, taken to their facility, stored in a fridge chamber and then taken to cremation. The energy produced by burning is being used in a plastic bucket factory. 
Trucks are disinfected and cleaned after every transport. No smell, no dirt, nothing. And a degree of dignity too.
Now if somebody would do something like that here in the US, offer cremation for free and use the energy in one way mir another, that might help horseowners out when faced with that decision. Paying for or providing transport to the facility is if course necessary. 
Btw, that service is not free in Italy, rather costly with about 500$


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## bsms

I'd hate to be the guy who had to tell a rancher to get passports for all his horses...

Europe bans US beef as well. Maybe it is time for folks to look at horse meat markets elsewhere.


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## EthanQ

My dad just told me the BEST plan! Take the horsemeat slaughtered here in the US, and ship it to Africa and other countries where children starve to death on a daily basis because we are getting tired of watching those depressing commercials! and it'll take extra horses off America's hands haha


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## natisha

EthanQ said:


> My dad just told me the BEST plan! Take the horsemeat slaughtered here in the US, and ship it to Africa and other countries where children starve to death on a daily basis because we are getting tired of watching those depressing commercials! and it'll take extra horses off America's hands haha


I'll bet those poor starving people hate having to be in those commercals. How someone can joke about their plight is beyond me.


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## faye

bsms, we don't take the beef because it contains to much crap in the form of antibiotics. Overhere the only difference between organic beef and everday cheap beef is that Organic hasnt been on land which has been fertilised with chemical fetilisers, nor has is been fed any feeds that may have been fertilised with chemicals. 

Before slaughter here the animal cannot have had any drugs for 3 months and non of the prohibited drugs EVER.

Oh and why would passports be an issue for a rancher? farmers with over 1000 head of sheep will have a passport for each and every one of them, same with cattle, Every horse in Europe should have one as well.

Oh and can I just point out that the EU as a body does not OWN the plants! they are mearly inspected by the EU regulatory authority to ensure that all the procedures are adequate to ensure the safety of our food chain. what they will have done is enforce a closure notice which means that the plant cannot supply to the EU, if this is the only market they supply to then of course the plant will close. If the plant decides it is not going to supply the EU but will supply elsewhere then there is nothing the EU reg body can do.
However the EU has mutual recognition agreements with most other major markets, which means that the other markets will acknowlege the fact that the meat is no loner concidered fit for the EU and most of them won't take it either.


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## bsms

Y'all don't take the meat because it protects your own farmers. The difference between US meat and organic meat is that organic costs more to produce and may be less healthy. Antibiotics are something I take when sick, so why shouldn't cattle and horses? I'd rather take my chances with the antibiotics than with germs.

There is no evidence that Americans are suffering disease and early death due to eating vast quantities of our 'tainted meat', nor that the Japanese are being poisoned by our products. 

" Farmers with over 1000 head of sheep will have a passport for each and every one of them, same with cattle, Every horse in Europe should have one as well."

Not in the US, thankfully. My friend in Utah doesn't have a passport for each of his 2000 sheep & 400 cattle. He's hiring guys from Peru to tend the flocks because no American wants to herd the sheep. He & his sons speak limited Spanish, and trying to use sign language to explain "passports" would be interesting. And he runs cattle on land where there are less than two cows/sq mile. I'm not sure how anyone would check to see if sick cattle getting a shot were also getting it recorded in their "passports"! They are out grazing 100 miles from the closest vet.

Same with the horses. They live and work where there are no vets to come stamp their passports. The land below is closed now to grazing, but they used to run their sheep here:










You don't run into a lot of vets out there.

Nor is there any reason behind the passport system, other than to protect the high costs of meat in Europe. Y'all are not bigger or stronger or healthier based on our poisonous beef. No one in America eats horse meat, so we sure don't have to worry about that!

In America, we believe in freedom and free markets. In Europe, y'all believe in a system of government control and regulation that is repulsive to most Americans. We don't have helmets laws for our riders, or training requirements. We don't live in a place where you can't swing a dead cat without having it cross 3 national borders. We don't want to pay European prices for our food or gas or horses or houses or anything else.

Europe runs on a system that a lot of city dwellers in America approve of - a tightly regulated place. Unhappily, our cities in America often want to force that stuff on the rest of us, just like Europe does. I'm not telling y'all how to live, but I'm not interested in you telling ME how to live. So I think we ought to be looking at other markets. Asia and Africa aren't likely to complain about American beef, nor about American horsemeat.


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## natisha

How exactly does the passport work? Is there a paper record for each animal or a computer program/scanning system or what? 
How are treatments recorded?
How does the passport physically stay with each animal?


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## BornToRun

What do you think is going to happen to all of the Standardbreds after the tracks have all closed?


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## Cherie

All the harness tracks are closing? Please inform me. We live far away from any harness racing.


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## Speed Racer

I think she means after this year's racing season is over, Cherie.


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## deserthorsewoman

All I can speak of us horses, don't know exactly ho cattle works, only that it is supposed to be traceable from birth to butchershop shelve. 

The passport, which is a binder with all info of the horse, markings, color, as recorded by a vet(a must), and an attachment with vaccines given, health certificates for travel and medical records.it has to stay with the horse, means the BO stores it, if the horse travels it has to be with the horse, ownership is recorded only on the ones issued by a registry, together with pedigree. 
But, as I stated in my previous post, where there is a regulation there are two crooked ways to go around it. 
Medications who can be only given by a vet can be had without prescription if you know the right people. I've seen it on every day bases in racing barns. 

As for organic, farmers have five years to go from conventional to organic, all is super controlled. But I've seen established organic dairies, with their own shops at the farm, highly advertised, who have the semiloads of chemical fertilizers coming at night. . So much for how control works.

I also know for a fact, that pharmaceutical companies meet once a year in Brussels to set prices for all of Europe.
Example, dewormers....Equimax, here, about 10$, all over EU about 40$. Generic Ivermectin here 2.50, in EU about 20$. Vaccines, 3-way here about 5$, there 40$, and only available through a vet. Even Vetrap, here 1.40$, there 8-10$.
Why? Because it's all regulated. 

I've lived with regulations for the first 54 years of my life and now hope that its not going in the same direction here.


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## dbarabians

As a beef producer,the biggest problem with importing US Beef is not the hormones an such administered to the cattle it is the factt aht European producers cannot raise cattle as cheaply and as massed produced as here in the US.
The US is to food what Saudie Arabia is to oil. We export more thatn any other country.
I have always found it strange that Europeans will no eat our beef but gladly will eat any horse meat that we will ship overseas. It is as much as concern about meat prices as about human health.
Farming in Europe is on a much smaller scale and is heavily subsidezed by the government.
There have been riots in France and Japan about the improtation of food because those countries cannot produce food as affordably as we can in North America.
Having lived in Eurpoe for 8 years I can attest that food prices there are higher than here in the US the farmers of other countries do not want competition. Shalom


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## deserthorsewoman

Sorry double post


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## deserthorsewoman

Example for subsidies : beef cattle. The EU gives money for every hectare(2,5acres) being used what they call extensive, opposed to intensive. Means, you can have one large animal unit, a cow older than two years or a horse older than 6 months per hectar of pasture. You can graze the land and get one cut of hay off of it. The EU gives you 200euros, about 280$, a year for doing it that way. Then they subsidise the cattle coming off of it too, young bull premiom, slaughter premium and a few more. So, a farmer with 70 ha will receive a nice check once a year, even if he does next to nothing. My neighbor in Germany milked that system to the max. He kept his cattle on drylot, and made hay off his land and sold it. 
Farmers in the EU are basically working welfare recipients. 
What it does for horsefolks, I bet you all can imagine. Try to rent a pasture....unaffordable! Because the farmer gets more money for it from the EU.


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## faye

desert horsewoman, not sure where the heck you got your wormers from but I've never paid any more than £12 for mine, and I've never paid more than 50p for vetwrap. You were getting conned where ever you were. My most recent set of vaccines (flu and tet as they are the only ones we need in the UK) £50 including vet call out and the horses annual MOT (not needed but something I do for my peace of mind)


For cattle (and I worked in the beef industry for a while at the biggest processor of beef in the UK) the passports are semi electronic. The paper version of the passport acompanies the animal, but the system is worked on a series of barcodes and scanning. Every movement of the animal is tracked and all the drugs administered to it.

BSMS, whilst you may take antibiotics when you are ill, Cattle in the US are given them constantly to prevent them becoming ill in the first place, this leads to drug resistance. Also whilst the antibiotics have been approved for cattle and are safe for cattle they may not be safe for humans even at trace levels. There are some that have never been tested on humans before.

The western world now has record amounts of allergies, birth defomities, cancers, learning difficulties, drug resistance as well as many many hormonal diseases (PCOS being one of them), there is significant evidence that this may be caused by the hormones and chemicals in our food. Whilst the proof is not yet conclusive the evidence is pretty damning.


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## deserthorsewoman

Faye....go to Italy. Equimax 36 euros. Vetrap 5.50 to 6 euros a roll. Vetcall, just to come, 50 euros. My last example of a vet call for what was believed to be possible choke, but turned out to be a handful of foxtail seeds stuck in the gums, no shots or anything else needed...130 euros.


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## Saddlebag

When unrealistic do-gooders try to talk to me about banning horse slaughter I remind them that in desperate times horses get turned loose. I also add that I sincerely hope they don't lose part of their family when they collide with one or more on the highway. That's an aspect most haven't thought of.


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## AlexS

Cross posted as there are two conversations about this. 


GOOD NEWS - they are shipping again. 

I just received this email from the International Equine Business Association: 


Friday European Union officials informed plants in Mexico and Canada that they were ineligible to import cheval (horse meat) to the E.U. Produced from U.S. Horses unless that had documentation to prove that the animals had been in the country where the plant was located for a minimum of three months. Today, that restriction was lifted. We wanted to share this information with you, although we will apparently not have many other details until later in the week. 

We are glad that what could have been a disaster and an international trade incident has been averted. As we have more information to share, we will. 

If you do not already receive alerts and updates directly and would like to, please input your email address to subscribe on our website at *http://IEqBAssn.org*. Please forward to anyone and everyone you think would need or want to stay informed about this evolving situation, and post on all horse industry networks and bulletins. 

In the meantime, we are trying to update and ensure the accuracy of our growing list of businesses and individuals who are involved in the international commerce of horses for processing, as well as those who look forward to participating in the industry here in the United States as FSIS finishes its work and issues initial grants of inspection in the next few months. Please contact me if you want to make sure you are included and we that we have your correct contact info at [email protected], 307-680-8515, or message me privately on Facebook at *http://facebook.com/sue.wallis52.*

​


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Thank God. Now can we please get our systems in place to comply with the requirements set forth in the EU guidelines so this doesn't need to happen again?

It's not only the horses who will be in trouble. Truck drivers will be out of work, ranch hands laid off if the KB's stop buying, and let's not forget that while they ultimately do process them, in the meantime they FEED them and to lose that section of the industry would have a domino effect on local economy.


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## Speed Racer

Exactly, DA. Everything is intertwined, and what hurts one aspect of the economy hurts all.


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## BornToRun

Cherie said:


> All the harness tracks are closing? Please inform me. We live far away from any harness racing.


OLG slots have closed in a few of the casino tracks in Canada. We're moslty Standardbreds down here, so it's really affecting them. Most of the horses going into and being rescued from feedlots and slaughter are Standardbreds. I'll post a link.

OLG removes slots from 3 raceways - Windsor - CBC News


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## bsms

faye said:


> ...BSMS, whilst you may take antibiotics when you are ill, Cattle in the US are given them constantly to prevent them becoming ill in the first place, this leads to drug resistance. Also whilst the antibiotics have been approved for cattle and are safe for cattle they may not be safe for humans even at trace levels. There are some that have never been tested on humans before.
> 
> The western world now has record amounts of allergies, birth defomities, cancers, learning difficulties, drug resistance as well as many many hormonal diseases (PCOS being one of them), there is significant evidence that this may be caused by the hormones and chemicals in our food. Whilst the proof is not yet conclusive the evidence is pretty damning.


The western world is now healthier than ever before in human history. We grow bigger, stronger, and live longer than ever. People have always had allergies. They used a hankie and kept going. For severe reactions, they died and no one bothered. Birth deformities often miscarried before birth, or died immediately afterward. 

We now live long enough to see cancer, and to diagnose it. The world is a carcinogen. The sun is a carcinogen - just got a 2" scar where a mole was a few months before. The UK has a lower cancer rate than the US, but France, Belgium and Denmark have higher rates. In almost every case, men have higher rates than women...from eating too much meat? US women have lower rates than UK men. If US meat is causing cancer, it is at a rate hidden by the noise from all the other things that cause cancer.

But beef and farmers in the EU are well protected by these rules and regulations. They cannot compete with US beef on a free market, so the EU imposes rules and regulations that the US ignores...we can sell the meat elsewhere. And that is a plausible approach to the EU regs on horse meat as well.

It also wouldn't hurt to allow it to be used in dog food again. I'm thinking "Trigger Dog Food - for the stallion in your dog!" And it could put a whole new spin on the old Chuck Wagon commercial - what was it that made the dog excited to eat:


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## jaydee

natisha said:


> Status of American horse slaughter trade still uncertain - News - Horsetalk.co.nz
> 
> Is it possible to have a true & accurate account of everything that was administered in a horse's lifetime?


 The UK in line with EU policy has had passports for horses since 2004 but they are still tightening up on how they should work and the law doesnt have enough teeth. Each time a vet attends the horse and gives it any prescribed drugs they are supposed to enter it on the passport but that certainly wasn't happening when we were there. All immunisations are also supposed to be recorded. A move to have wormers made only available from a vet failed so they dont get entered onto the passport. Its supposed to be illegal to buy or sell a horse that doesn't have one but that wasn't happening either. No slaughter yards can accept a horse without one but backyard slaughter yards aren't unheard of.
If you buy prescription drugs online with a prescription sent to the company from your vet how is that going to be entered on a passport?
If you have a vet who will allow you to have prescription drugs for emergency situations who is going to know which horse has been given them - other than trust on the honesty of each individual.
All foals born in the UK now have to be microchipped by law but with foals selling for a few $'s by struggling people who have over bred I seriously cant see this happening
There is a serious problem in the UK with horses being abandoned and pretty much the same is going to happen here
It would be better if everyone had there unwanted horses euthanised - a charity to help pay for this would be more effective than one raising to money to buy animals that there aren't enough homes for.
There are lots of heartless people out there who only think of how much they will get for a horse they dont want any more but there's a growing number of people who for reasons beyond their control can't afford to keep them, cant find homes for them and cant afford the costs of euthanasia.
Loss of income has to be one of the biggest worries for any horse owner.


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## AlexS

bsms said:


> It also wouldn't hurt to allow it to be used in dog food again. I'm thinking "Trigger Dog Food - for the stallion in your dog!" And it could put a whole new spin on the old Chuck Wagon commercial - what was it that made the dog excited to eat:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BBqgMQluDM


Laugh. I personally don't eat mystery meat (scrapple, processed sandwich meat etc) and neither do my dogs. They are spoiled and get Taste of the Wild. 

I'm not sure if there have been many studies done - but I do wonder if growth hormones have (in part) led to obesity levels in the US. 
Teenage girls seem to be far more developed than they were a few years ago.


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## Speed Racer

Scrapple is pig parts, Alex. Pretty much everything but the oink is used. :wink:

I'm just ******* enough to like scrapple. I like corned beef hash too, and I know that's not good for me, either. Which is why I don't eat either of them very much.


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## jaydee

_In America, we believe in freedom and free markets. In Europe, y'all believe in a system of government control and regulation that is repulsive to most Americans. We don't have helmets laws for our riders, or training requirements. We don't live in a place where you can't swing a dead cat without having it cross 3 national borders. We don't want to pay European prices for our food or gas or horses or houses or anything else._

_Europe runs on a system that a lot of city dwellers in America approve of - a tightly regulated place. Unhappily, our cities in America often want to force that stuff on the rest of us, just like Europe does. I'm not telling y'all how to live, but I'm not interested in you telling ME how to live. So I think we ought to be looking at other markets. Asia and Africa aren't likely to complain about American beef, nor about American horsemeat.[/QUOTE_]
No country is without laws. Just because the EU has imposed laws on food products doesn't mean that the US is any more free in other ways.
The helmet law was very much pushed by insurance and healthcare costs - people with brain damage cost more to take care of long term. I dont understand what you mean by 'training requirements'? If you mean driving tests then here in CT I have to take the same sort of theory and driving test as in the UK PLUS spend 8 hours in a classroom listening to some lectures on safe driving that your kids do in school - we dont do that in the UK and the US refuses to accept that the UK has modern driving standards. You can move to any part of the UK and still use the same driving licence but if I move to another state here I have to take another driving test.
There are many states here in the US that have bans on various products that other states dont have, a lot of these things are horticultural based but some are just down to materials they are made of
Almost every town has its own zoning laws, they can control how many horses you can keep on your property and how you keep them in terms of stabling/shelter. I cant allow my horses here to graze within 10 feet of my own boundary fence.
In the UK you can put up as many sheds on your tiny garden as you like - here in CT I have to get planning permission to do that regardless of how much acreage I have.
The EU chooses to try to protect its food sources - a lot of that is also about controling things like Foot and Mouth disease, anthrax, mad cow disease. Its also reduced the amount of stock that were stolen to put through slaughter yards.
I would be a lot happier to see a slaughter yard in every state in the US so animals dont have to be put through long journeys


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## Speed Racer

Jaydee, you don't have to take another driving test if you move to a different state. Yes, you have to get a driver's license for the state in which you live, but as long as your old license is still current you'll just switch it for the new state. 

I'm all for slaughter houses in every state. Heck, I'd be happy to see one in every COUNTY. We have two small ones within easy driving distance of my property, so I know where I can take any animal I want slaughtered and processed. Will they do a horse? I imagine so if I can prove I'm the owner, but they probably won't let it be known publicly that they'll process horses because of all the crazy, 'no horsies to slaughter ever!' folks.

I live in an agricultural area so the residents have a better idea of where their food comes from than regular city dwellers, but we do have a few citiots who have moved into the area. They like to complain about the farmers firing up their tractors on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Don't those RUDE farmers know it's the weekend and we like to sleep in?! Gah!


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## AlexS

Speed Racer said:


> I'm all for slaughter houses in every state. Heck, I'd be happy to see one in every COUNTY.


I'd love to see them right next to the auctions so horses have minimal travel time.


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## DancingArabian

AlexS said:


> I'd love to see them right next to the auctions so horses have minimal travel time.


I would not. People can be scumbags and I wouldn't want someone's horse to be stolen and carted off to slaughter by some moron looking for a quick buck. I probably will never be truly pro slaughter unless there's a system to be absolutely sure that every horse killed doesn't have someone crying their heart out looking for him because some jerk stole him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS

DancingArabian said:


> I would not. People can be scumbags and I wouldn't want someone's horse to be stolen and carted off to slaughter by some moron looking for a quick buck. I probably will never be truly pro slaughter unless there's a system to be absolutely sure that every horse killed doesn't have someone crying their heart out looking for him because some jerk stole him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's an issue with not enough checks being made in the process, not enough ID on horses etc. 

And frankly it could happen now, they just ship further. 

To me the theft argument would be much like saying that no car repair shops should exist because many mechanics are crooks.


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## dbarabians

the EU does not protect its food source they protect the farmers livlihood.
american beef can and is raised hormone and drug free. all our cattle are processed by local slaughterhouse and we sell directly to restuarants that advertise organic beef.
Even if the beef pork and chicken processed here was grown to EU standards the farm subsidies given to farmers in the EU would ahve to be increased to compete with the US. Period.
The ban being lifted is a prime example of that. Once the flow of cheap, abundant horseflesh was cut off and wwhile the demand is so great in the EU. Horse flesh prodessed in Mexico which would not be regulated and an bribe here and there will get you a vet check.
the us can supply the whole of europe with organic beef if they lifted ban. We have the space, the cattle, and the means to do so. Shalom


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## natisha

DancingArabian said:


> I would not. People can be scumbags and I wouldn't want someone's horse to be stolen and carted off to slaughter by some moron looking for a quick buck. I probably will never be truly pro slaughter unless there's a system to be absolutely sure that every horse killed doesn't have someone crying their heart out looking for him because some jerk stole him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Every horse slaughtered by American (North& South) means should have someone crying for them.
As I've been called crazy a few posts up I can say things like that.


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## jaydee

Speed Racer said:


> Jaydee, you don't have to take another driving test if you move to a different state. Yes, you have to get a driver's license for the state in which you live, but as long as your old license is still current you'll just switch it for the new state.
> 
> I'm all for slaughter houses in every state. Heck, I'd be happy to see one in every COUNTY. We have two small ones within easy driving distance of my property, so I know where I can take any animal I want slaughtered and processed. Will they do a horse? I imagine so if I can prove I'm the owner, but they probably won't let it be known publicly that they'll process horses because of all the crazy, 'no horsies to slaughter ever!' folks.
> 
> I live in an agricultural area so the residents have a better idea of where their food comes from than regular city dwellers, but we do have a few citiots who have moved into the area. They like to complain about the farmers firing up their tractors on Saturday and Sunday mornings. Don't those RUDE farmers know it's the weekend and we like to sleep in?! Gah!


 I stand corrected on the driving test thing!!!!!
We can now also buy alcohol on a Sunday in CT - as long as you do it before 5pm. Haven't figured out yet what difference the time makes!!!
We live in a rural area though not isolated but it attracts loads of New Yorkers and Celebs who have holiday homes here and also complain about the mess 'country folk' make. If Bambi's family trash my Veg plot or my fences I dare not shoot them in case they go and die on a neighbouring property who encourage them onto their places because they look so cute - dropping ticks everywhere and spreading Lymes disease. In the winter they starve to death and get hit by traffic as they wander from one feed place to another then cost the town money to get the carcass shifted!!!
Gone off thread
If there were slaughter yards in each county the people who are currently putting horses into auction yards to sell for slaughter would take them direct and make more money out of them (no commission) It would also help reduce the number of sales to unsuspecting people who are buying these cheap horses thinking they will work out OK for riding and then finding out they are crazy or totally unsound.


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## jaydee

dbarabians said:


> the EU does not protect its food source they protect the farmers livlihood.
> american beef can and is raised hormone and drug free. all our cattle are processed by local slaughterhouse and we sell directly to restuarants that advertise organic beef.
> Even if the beef pork and chicken processed here was grown to EU standards the farm subsidies given to farmers in the EU would ahve to be increased to compete with the US. Period.
> The ban being lifted is a prime example of that. Once the flow of cheap, abundant horseflesh was cut off and wwhile the demand is so great in the EU. Horse flesh prodessed in Mexico which would not be regulated and an bribe here and there will get you a vet check.
> the us can supply the whole of europe with organic beef if they lifted ban. We have the space, the cattle, and the means to do so. Shalom


 Yes you are right - it is mostly to do with protecting the livelihood of EU farmers. I fact a heifer slaughtered when its 'bulling' will have more natural hormones in its meat than one thats been given them artificially.
However Europe is struggling economically as much as anywhere else and taking money away from farmers there and giving it to US farmers wouldn't help anything - how would US farmers feel if the reverse happened?
At present there is no shortage of horsemeat to meet demands in Europe - they have the same problems with unwanted horses as the US does plus countries like France, Italy and Belgium breed horses specifically for meat. France is actually eating less horsemeat now by choice then it ever has - horsemeat now is only about 1% of meat consumed there. It would be better if - as someone else suggested - horse meat was used in pet food over here. That market is huge. I honestly cant see that it matters what happens to a horse once its dead.
If the public in general dont like the idea of horses being bred for meat then some restrictions need to be put in place to regulate the numbers of low end horses being bred.
The largest number of horses going for slaughter are 6 years and under and unhandled.
*Natisha* I agree with you. Every horse that dies should have someone shedding a tear for it even though it was done with the best intent - because the horse was being let go to spare it any more pain. But as long as people are breeding horses indiscriminately this will never happen, there are sound healthy horses out there - hundreds of them - that are going straight from the land they were born on to an auction and onto a slaughter yard.


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## Inga

jaydee said:


> . It would be better if - as someone else suggested - horse meat was used in pet food over here. That market is huge. I honestly cant see that it matters what happens to a horse once its dead.
> If the public in general dont like the idea of horses being bred for meat then some restrictions need to be put in place to regulate the numbers of low end horses being bred.
> The largest number of horses going for slaughter are 6 years and under and unhandled.
> *Natisha* I agree with you. Every horse that dies should have someone shedding a tear for it even though it was done with the best intent - because the horse was being let go to spare it any more pain. But as long as people are breeding horses indiscriminately this will never happen, there are sound healthy horses out there - hundreds of them - that are going straight from the land they were born on to an auction and onto a slaughter yard.


I agree with all of this. I do worry about the use of drugs in horses and what impact that could have on the beings that consume the meat. All that said, why waste the meat in a world where people/animals are starving. 

I have said it before but I will say it again, stop breeding indiscriminately. The "hundreds of them" that you refer to are likely more like "thousands or tens of thousands" I cringe when I see the people with their poorly put together horses all excited because there horse is going to have a baby. I just keep thinking "there is another one for the slaughter houses" The whole thing is heartbreaking.


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## Speed Racer

natisha said:


> Every horse slaughtered by American (North& South) means should have someone crying for them.


But they _don't_, and wishing it were true doesn't make it so.

If the roles were reversed and the NORM was slaughter, how would you like if it you were told by others that you_ must_ send your horses to slaughter or you're cruel and unfeeling? That's where my disconnect with the antis occurs.

Just because you or I won't send our horses to slaughter doesn't mean we get to tell_ others_ what they can or can't do with their own horses, as long as it's legal. 

If it's not your horse you don't get to make decisions about its welfare. That's quite simply the bottom line. Antis want to take something that's perfectly legal and make it illegal simply because they think they have some kind of moral high ground, and know better than everyone else.

It's NOT about tainted meat or worrying about poisoning different cultures, although the antis will rally behind that convenient smokescreen. It's all about trying to force _your_ moral standards onto the rest of the population, and that's something I simply can't agree with.

If we're to have the freedom to make choices about what happens to _our_ animals, then we have to give the same rights to everyone else.


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## DancingArabian

AlexS said:


> That's an issue with not enough checks being made in the process, not enough ID on horses etc.
> 
> And frankly it could happen now, they just ship further.
> 
> To me the theft argument would be much like saying that no car repair shops should exist because many mechanics are crooks.


It certainly could happen now, and probably does to an extent. However it would only INCREASE as the ease of turning over the horse would increase.

For a comparison:
Places that have more options for selling copper have more copper related theft.

They need to have some sort of quarantine period and some means of tracking down stolen horses. Until then, I stand firm that I will not support slaughter until our companion animals are protected.

God help the person that stole my horse and carted him to slaughter, because I surely wouldn't be doing nice things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

You'd have to go much deeper with everything for the big change. Mass producing animals and animal products in itself is apparently needed but bad. They need the antibiotics as preventative to grow healthy enough in this stressful environment. Be it chickens, pigs or cows in feedlots. Ever been on a pigfarm, the big, commercial ones? In Europe beef is, for the most part, produced much differently than here. Dairy cows are bred to beef bulls, resulting calves are raised mainly indoors until they have market weight. Way more costly than here. Then add the world market...grain from Russia and the US and Canada can be produced way cheaper than in Europe. And even with shipping cost it's still cheaper. That's what's making the subsidies necessary, or so the EU thinks. 
Then the big centralized slaughter facilities. 
I remember well in Germany, every little town had at least one butchershop where farmers would take their animals. They all disappeared. And so did the horse butchers. Now horsemeat is considered poor people food. 
As for responsible breeding....as long as there are people who prefer a mare over a gelding because she can produce a foal if not rideable not more " to get some of the money back", as I've been told when trying to sell an OTTB gelding, you'll have these unwanted horses. And they have to go somewhere. Then add the cultures who think any male animal can not be neutered. 
The majority of breeders have stopped breeding, leaving their mares empty. And with time the market will regulate itself. With time.....


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## jaydee

An enforced passport system with micro chipping would massively reduce the horse theft issues. people in the UK objected to it at first then had to accept it and now see it as normal.
We have dog licences in the US (we dont in the UK) so why not some proof of ownership for horses with a central database?
Slaughter yards would have to be more strictly supervised and regulated

More and more responsible breeders of good quality horses are cutting back or giving up altogether so its likely at some point in 5 or 6 years time if the economy lifts there will actually be a shortage of good horses
Sadly its the irresponsible ones who arent, they produce low end horses on as small a budget as possible so dont care if they sell for meat money - its still a profit and it doesn't matter how bad a conformation or temperament they have or if they have never been handled
And then you get the ones who think its 'so cute' to have a little herd all of their own running free and natural and untouched by human hand.................like they are some sort of saints doing this massive big favour to the horse world. Right up until the point that the money runs out or they move on to some other fantasy that appeals more.


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## NdAppy

The dog and cat licenses also are not enforced... There isn't enough man power/money to enforce them... 

Where is the man power and the money to pay that man power going to come from to license and enforce licensing of all the horses out there? You're still going to have people with unlicensed horses, just like with dogs and cats. Living in the county, none of my dogs or cats are licensed, nor do they have to be.


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## COWCHICK77

This is going to be a little off topic but I wanted to share a few facts(that I know) about beef production, antibiotics and growth enhancing practices.

It has been a long time since I went through a Beef Checkoff Quality Assurance program, but I thought I would pass along some information, take it for what it is worth.

For those that don't know, Beef Checkoff is a program available for beef producers to learn about the proper use of antibiotics and growth enhancing practices. It teaches what drugs to use, proper dosage and how to administer them properly for the most effectiveness and safety. Long gone are the days when you used run down the catwalk and jab everything in the tenderloin to give shots while in the leadup to the head catch. Now everything is given in the neck either IM or subcu., depending on the drug/vaccination as not to bruise or abcess.

All animals must go through a 30 day withdrawal period where it is not given any antibiotics. THIS is where those YouTube videos come from with downed cattle. Usually those are "chronics" that seem like they are always sick, they must go through a withdrawal period of at least 30 days, the only thing keeping them alive was the antibiotics. Then couple that with a truck ride to a kill plant. Stressed animals get sick, stress a sick one and it will die. Just as a side note, anything done with cattle can stress them, moving them to another pasture, loading them on a truck...whatever, but a responsible producer will use the lowest stress methods available.


Also mass treating with antibiotics in the feedlot is highly discouraged. As far as I know sometimes they will do a pen of cattle that were shipped in looking poor and sickly, but not the whole feedyard. I don't see that very cost effective. 
That is what pen riders are for. It is their responsibility to check each pen for cattle that are getting sick, get them out and up to the hospital for treatment. Much more cost effective to treat one steer rather than mass treating them all.

Consumers worry about growth hormones, the enviromental impact of cattle but still want their McDonalds Big Mack. Don't know how to fix that one unfortunately...
If USDA/FDA were to ban all use of growth enhancing technologies. The US would have to produce an additional 10 MILLION head of cattle a year, we would need 17 million more acres for grazing and feed growth and 138 Billion more gallons of water for those cattle to meet consumer demands. There needs to be some advancements and compromise.

Every time laws and restrictions are made that impact agriculture production it drives food costs up. Everyone suffers. The beef industry is well aware of the concerns of its consumers and is constantly working on producing healthy, sustainable beef. It can be a little difficult when there is a huge disconnect between consumers and where the beef actually comes from unfortunately. I wish more people were educated on how our world is fed. Farmers and ranchers who make up less than 10% of the population feed us all. 

The thought of keeping a "passport" for every steer or heifer that passed through my hands seems ridiculous, again the cost will be driven up of beef. The cost to produce it which will be passed on down to the line. That would be fine and dandy for someone who raises 100 head in the back pastures. But how would one propose to do so when the majority of yearlings that we got came from say AZ, perhaps there were 20,000 head wintered there as weanlings, then divided up and sent to various ranches up north to NV, ID, OR and MT for the summer. Then to make drugs only available to be administered by vet, not logical at all. So my option is to either drive him to a set of pens and tire/stress him more so a vet can get to him, rope and load him in a trailer to a set of pens again so a vet can doctor him, or rope him, tie him down and wait two hours while the vet drives from town or at that time and expense it seems you would be better off shooting him and taking the loss. If anyone ever thinks that vets should be the only ones to administer drugs to cattle for record keeping needs to work on a ranch for a day or two.

Honestly, If the US plans to make horse meat an industry(but not on the same scale as beef obviously)they just need to get the funding for testing the horse meat and regulate it like the beef, treat it the same. But that's just my opinion.


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## bsms

Thank you COWCHICK77. If all sick cattle had to be tended by a vet who signed their passport, we'd have a lot of cattle being shot because in many places a vet could drive all day just getting to and from the sick cow. Heck, a visit from the vet 25 miles away to pour oil down my horse one night cost me $400. That is pretty close to her current market value, too...


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## COWCHICK77

LOL! you summed up what I said in a page in two sentences...


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## dbarabians

Didn't they discover Mad Cow disease in England?
Our beef is very regulated here our food is probably safer than any other country.
Hving lived in Europe, Israel turkey and visited the far east where open markets are and were the norm i assure you that with the requirement for refrigiration, storage, and displays here in the US I felt kind of wierd seeing meat eggs and cheses displayed with the regualtion that are standard here in the US. Shalom


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## COWCHICK77

Yes, The UK was highly impacted with over 100 deaths.

BSE, unfortunately has a very long incubation period, I think up to 8 years! Also they seemed to trace it back to cows that were fed bone meal made from, well, dead cows and sheep.

AS far as I know there has not been a vaccination produced to prevent BSE, but of course the use of animal parts to be used for feeding cattle have been eliminated.
In the mean time, strict controls have been placed on the butchering beef has been placed that no spinal cord/ brain parts are sold or placed with boxed beef. BSE can be found within all of beef but it is concentrated through the nervous system and seems to be the issue with humans contracting the disease.


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## AlexS

dbarabians said:


> Didn't they discover Mad Cow disease in England?


You have it here in the US too, but it has not received much publicity. 

CDC - Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)


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## dbarabians

Alex S here in the US we avoidied the mass hysteria and numerous infection due to our ability to isolate and control our products.
Our meat and vegetables are as safe as Europes and the rest of the world.
Our department of Agriculture and Food and Drug administration along with State and local health departments can isolate and minimize any out break remarkably fast. Shalom


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> Thank you COWCHICK77. If all sick cattle had to be tended by a vet who signed their passport, we'd have a lot of cattle being shot because in many places a vet could drive all day just getting to and from the sick cow. Heck, a visit from the vet 25 miles away to pour oil down my horse one night cost me $400. That is pretty close to her current market value, too...


 Farmers in EU countries dont have to have a vet each time drugs are administered they are just expected to keep a record of whats given - its about trying to keep consumer confidence in whats going into the food thats on their plate. 
One of the main thinking behind passports is to be able to track each animal to its origin so when a case of Foot & Mouth for eg is found its easy to trace it to where it came from and the herd and any other contacts can be quickly isolated and destroyed before the disease spreads. If you'd ever lived in a UK rural community and seen the devastation caused by something like FMD you would understand why its so important.
Horses only need to have recorded medication uses if they are going into the food chain. Casualty stock goes out through another door
The US has really strict regulations that they impose on any countries who want to export meat products to here so why would they expect to not have to conform to another countries own regulations?


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> ...One of the main thinking behind passports is to be able to track each animal to its origin so when a case of Foot & Mouth for eg is found its easy to trace it to where it came from and the herd and any other contacts can be quickly isolated and destroyed before the disease spreads. If you'd ever lived in a UK rural community and seen the devastation caused by something like FMD you would understand why its so important.
> Horses only need to have recorded medication uses if they are going into the food chain. Casualty stock goes out through another door
> The US has really strict regulations that they impose on any countries who want to export meat products to here so why would they expect to not have to conform to another countries own regulations?


Hmmm...so foot & mouth disease doesn't exist in the US? Or are our cattle so spread out that it isn't hard to deal with?

And the point about horse slaughter is that horses are not raised for food. The vast majority of horses going to slaughter went there after first being considered riding stock.

Regulations ARE obeyed. The US has objected to the EU rules, but that is all. And my suggestion was that we look elsewhere. The beef here is just as healthy to eat as beef in the EU. If you want "organic", you can get it. If you don't give a rat's rear, like most American consumers, you buy your beef knowing the main health concern is portion control - eating too much and getting fat. If there was evidence that the EU has lower cancer rates due to their controls, the US might adopt them. But there is no evidence, and most of our meat goes to our domestic market, so we don't care.

The EU is up to its neck with government weenies. It is an international HOA with the control freak minority trying to dominate everyone else. Happily, the US is large enough to blow them a big, beefy raspberry...


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## dbarabians

BSMS livestock producers in england and europe operate on a much smaller scale thatn producers here in the US and Canada.
Cattle are raised on much smaller holdings and herds are smaller for theat reason. If a family lost 5 cows to disease it would devastate most producers. 
My family here in Texas has what I consider a small to medium operation. with about 100 head of brood cows, 5 bulls, calves and yearlings for replacemant or slaughter we have about 200 head at all time. losing 5 would not big a big finanial loss. Shalom


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> Hmmm...so foot & mouth disease doesn't exist in the US? Or are our cattle so spread out that it isn't hard to deal with?
> 
> And the point about horse slaughter is that horses are not raised for food. The vast majority of horses going to slaughter went there after first being considered riding stock.
> 
> Regulations ARE obeyed. The US has objected to the EU rules, but that is all. And my suggestion was that we look elsewhere. The beef here is just as healthy to eat as beef in the EU. If you want "organic", you can get it. If you don't give a rat's rear, like most American consumers, you buy your beef knowing the main health concern is portion control - eating too much and getting fat. If there was evidence that the EU has lower cancer rates due to their controls, the US might adopt them. But there is no evidence, and most of our meat goes to our domestic market, so we don't care.
> 
> The EU is up to its neck with government weenies. It is an international HOA with the control freak minority trying to dominate everyone else. Happily, the US is large enough to blow them a big, beefy raspberry...


 I'm not sure what your argument is
The US has been free of FMD since 1929
Its is way more spread out because it does have way more open land, farming in countries like the UK is way more intensive because it doesn't have the acreage available or the distance between farms
I'm not aware that any of the EU farming policies have anything to do with trying to reduce cancer rates - the fact that some people may be trying to make a statistical analysis from it has nothing to do with them
The only concern with the horse slaughter issue is that horses going for slaughter in the EU for human consumption have to conform with the same regulations as any other meat producing animal and as you rightly say - many of the horses going to canada & mexico are unwanted riding horses so the EU feels that it has to protect its food source from these places in the same way as it does from its own countries. 
The US doesn't eat horse meat so why should they worry - neither does the UK - but those countries that do feel they have a right to be feel confident in what they eat and not just be a dumping ground for unwanted US horses because the US cant get its head around providing slaughter facilities in its own country.
If the US has no need to export beef then why should it have any concerns at all about how the EU is run - its not going to have any effect on them at all
As of March 2012 the US was still upholding its 15 year old ban on importing beef from the EU. I'm not sure if there is any change on that


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## dbarabians

That US ban on imports from the EU is in retaliation for the refusal of the countries to allow our imports.
For example while I was stationed in Europe i drove a Chrysler New Yorker.
In those days they were very push and my relatives and friends in the countries I lived in thought I was terribly wealthy.
I was ontinually getting offers for the car.
However to sell the car that cost about 14,000 $ to a resident of that country would have cost them about 35,-40,000.
Now this was in the early to mid 80's so that was a lot of money for a car in those days. I could buy a european car for less than I paid for the New Yorker.
Closing markets to outside competition only hurst the consumer.
With the low cost of imported american beef consumers in the EU could find their food cost much lower. Shalom


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## bsms

How did the US get free of FMD without passports for cattle?

The ban on US beef was supposedly - according to the articles I could find - due to concerns that the stuff our cattle are fed and given cause cancer. Maybe those articles are wrong, but I doubt the EU has admitted they ban US beef to protect their farmers. I do remember the EU farmers protesting in the 90s about US farm products.

My point remains: The EU is going to do what it does, so we ought to look elsewhere rather than adopt their regulations and practices. The concerned EU consumers remind me of a person I know who won't use cell phones for fear of brain cancer - but I believe in freedom, and the EU consumers can pay high prices if they want to.


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## jaydee

dbarabians said:


> That US ban on imports from the EU is in retaliation for the refusal of the countries to allow our imports.
> For example while I was stationed in Europe i drove a Chrysler New Yorker.
> In those days they were very push and my relatives and friends in the countries I lived in thought I was terribly wealthy.
> I was ontinually getting offers for the car.
> However to sell the car that cost about 14,000 $ to a resident of that country would have cost them about 35,-40,000.
> Now this was in the early to mid 80's so that was a lot of money for a car in those days. I could buy a european car for less than I paid for the New Yorker.
> Closing markets to outside competition only hurst the consumer.
> With the low cost of imported american beef consumers in the EU could find their food cost much lower. Shalom


 It isnt just the EU - Japan is only just easing its import restrictions on US beef - they also cite BSE as a reason. China still is in discussion with the US and has a really complicated list of exclusions
Export Requirements for the People's Republic of China
Its not unreasonable that countries with different costs of living need to protect the producers within their own borders. Some very poor eoropean countries are totally reliant on a rural economy, these people are existing close to the poverty line as they have no other real sources of employment so a flood of cheap US meat could destroy them. Even in the UK farming is really fragile as an industry and the loss of their sales to huge US beef producers would see many of them out of work.
A country has a duty to look after its own first because it has to provide for them if they are out of work. The UK for eg has a much different benefits and health system to the US
By the time beef was imported into the EU with the associated costs plus the addition of VAT (purchase tax) at anything from 17% to 23% it might not actually be that much cheaper when you consider that in some US states it can be zero. 
A car in the UK costs almost as much in GBP's as it does in $'s in the US with a current exchange rate of about 1GBP to $0.619, the cost of housing is much the same
A horse in the EU that cant go into the foodchain is pretty much worthless and not that long ago would cost you money to dispose of as no slaughter yard was interested in buying them as there was no profit in it - more likely a loss.
If the EU is able to uphold its policy on not accepting US horses that aren't deemed fit for human consumption it will have a huge impact on the price they are making in auctions as they wont be worth buying and transporting to Mexico or Canada and butchering there


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## dbarabians

Jaydee I understand that the farmers want to protect their livilhoods but economcally it makes no sense when you can import it much cheaper.
Japan and china are dealing with the same issues as the EU.
Also if the US could control the worlds food supply along with a few other countries and it can then you are talking a immensely powerful country. One that already enjoys the benefits of being the only Superpower left. Shalom


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## jaydee

dbarabians said:


> *Jaydee I understand that the farmers want to protect their livilhoods but economcally it makes no sense when you can import it much cheaper.*
> Japan and china are dealing with the same issues as the EU.
> Also if the US could control the worlds food supply along with a few other countries and it can then you are talking a immensely powerful country. One that already enjoys the benefits of being the only Superpower left. Shalom


 So how do you explain that to the farmers who all lose their income, land and homes that they have had for generations and work bloody hard to do that? The costs of unemployment and NHS care is already a huge problem without adding to it to benefit the US and heaven help us if there was another war or disaster that might suddenly disconnect reliant countries from its food supply - its was a serious problem in WW2 with a smaller population and more available farm land
Is it even ethical that a few countries should be able to control something as vital as food? I dont think so
Part of the thinking behind the EU was to combine the resources of several small but already influential and wealthy countries into one that was a much greater force to be reckoned with as far as global economy is concerned
A lot of people in the UK do resent it as some of the laws and rules are getting out of control but it also has its advantages and has paid for a huge amount of regeneration
*BSMS *I would imagine that eradicating FMD was much less of a problem back in the 1920's in the US where livestock was even more spread out and isolated than it is now and keeping it that way is all down to controlling what comes in. In the UK where stock is so much closer together tracking one animal from where its identified and what its been in contact with can mean the difference between slaughtering a few herds and slaughtering hundreds. It isn't just affected animals that get slaughtered its anything they've been in contact with
Much the same as we dont have rabies in the UK


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## dbarabians

Jaydee I see your point and one that I can understand.
though I live 100 miles from Dallas the Metroplex is growing toward my families land every day. 20 years ago the land was 500- 800 an acre now when the value of land goes up so do our taxes and to be able to afford the future ones neither my brother or i recieve any income form the profit.
We want to be able to ensure our daughters have a chance to enjoy their ancestoral home. One that has been in my family for over 170 years.
Part of the protectionism shown by the EU and other countries is political.
However Great Britian with its common wealth nations would emerge as a powerful player. austrailia, and Canada caould gratly improve their exports. Shalom


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## jaydee

dbarabians said:


> Jaydee I see your point and one that I can understand.
> though I live 100 miles from Dallas the Metroplex is growing toward my families land every day. 20 years ago the land was 500- 800 an acre now when the value of land goes up so do our taxes and to be able to afford the future ones neither my brother or i recieve any income form the profit.
> We want to be able to ensure our daughters have a chance to enjoy their ancestoral home. One that has been in my family for over 170 years.
> Part of the protectionism shown by the EU and other countries is political.
> However Great Britian with its common wealth nations would emerge as a powerful player. austrailia, and Canada caould gratly improve their exports. Shalom


 I'm afraid that everything is about money and politics and we are all just pawns in that game
The land that my grt grandfather, grandfather and father farmed in the UK is now one huge housing complex with industrial and retail centres between. Same goes for that of my husbands family. Villages that once had distance between them and identities are now joined together and mostly only wealthy people can afford to live in them if they have any 'chocolate box' appeal
We moved here from one of the few villages but any rural land that ever came on the market was quickly snapped up by someone looking ahead to when it might become open for building at ridiculous prices and then either rented out or it sits empty while it waits. The narrow country roads & lanes we should be able to ride safely along are a hazard with cars commuting between places driven by people with no regard for country life at all.
If farmers lost what livelihood they cling on to all of this would soon be gone or preserved by government as some sort of national park type property for tourist appeal. Its bad enough as it is with all the interference from the over the top greenie brigade that move in and complain about smells and mud on the roads
The only restriction on Australian beef into the EU is that it has to come from certified non hormone stock so must have documentation to support that. I dont think there is any restriction on Australian beef imports in to the US


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Here are a couple of key points that I've gotten from this discussion in the last few pages:

#1 EU protects their economy my strictly controlling imports and exports. 

As one poster said, "The governments have a responsibility to their people FIRST."

We need to adopt their restrictions and take care of OUR people first. 

#2 We need to embrace the EU's restrictions on horse meat. 

Actually, I don't have a problem with that at all. That will create or bring out of the closet, the horse meat industry where horses are raised strictly to be eaten. Once that is done, and the ranchers band together, and start a "certified Quality Horsemeat" program, prices will triple, more people can have jobs and horses will be worth something again. 

Think about it, we could create a market for horse like there is for Blue Fin Tuna...


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## WickedNag

Speed Racer said:


> Jaydee, you don't have to take another driving test if you move to a different state. Yes, you have to get a driver's license for the state in which you live, but as long as your old license is still current you'll just switch it for the new state.


In my home state of South Dakota that is true but in Minnesota you have to take a knowledge test but they are very stringent. Thought about moving there at one point 
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/dvs/forms-documents/Documents/NewResident.pdf


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## dbarabians

Dreamcatcher the US is the driving force behind the worlds economy.
We consume far more than we manufacture. If we stopped importing or had the same restrictions as the EU and other countries they would have dire consequences for most developing countries.
We also use our economic might as a powerful political tool to bend others to our way of thinking. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

dbarabians said:


> Dreamcatcher the US is the driving force behind the worlds economy.
> We consume far more than we manufacture. If we stopped importing or had the same restrictions as the EU and other countries they would have dire consequences for most developing countries.
> We also use our economic might as a powerful political tool to bend others to our way of thinking. Shalom


:wink: That was my point, exactly.


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## jaydee

dbarabians said:


> Dreamcatcher the US is the driving force behind the worlds economy.
> We consume far more than we manufacture. If we stopped importing or had the same restrictions as the EU and other countries they would have dire consequences for most developing countries.
> We also use our economic might as a powerful political tool to bend others to our way of thinking. Shalom


 Actually if the US and Europe stopped having so much stuff manufactured cheaply in places like China (which is rapidly becoming one of the most wealthy and powerful nations) we wouldnt have such high unemployement figures. You can buy really cheap stuff from these sources but you can also buy really expensive stuff made in exactly the same places so some make way more profit out of it than others.
Off thread there ^^^^
Shutting the door on US originated slaughtered horses that are not actually certified as fit for human consumption into Europe might be a good thing in the long term
It would force the US to get its own slaughter yards up and running again
Put an end to the sort of irresponsible breeding thats sending these horses there as only certified safe for consumption stock would be worth anything in that market
Make people more responsible for unwanted horses as throwing them in an auction would no longer be profitable
Make people who want to breed horses for meat get in the same line in terms of controls as 'normal' livestock meat producers. In France & Italy etc these are normally heavy draft breeds not riding horse types
Having less rubbish on the market would eventually increase the prices of good quality horses.


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## AlexS

A press release today:



16 Oct 2012 ... Last Friday the Equine Welfare Alliance distributed a media release claiming "US horses are no longer being accepted by Canadian horse slaughter plants." Since then HWAC has been working with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) to clarify the issue. 

Today we received an email from AAFC confirming that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) has not changed its policies and directives regarding the entry of US horses intended for slaughter, nor were any instructions provided to CFIA operational staff or industry to refuse the entry of US horses intended for slaughter into Canada. 

The AAFC resprentative stated, "While I cannot speak for decisions made by the industry, I understand that the information you learned of may have been prompted by a shipment of Canadian meat derived from US horses which was temporarily held at a port of entry in France. With the support of the Canadian Missions in France and the European Union, the CFIA contacted its regulatory counterpart, the European Union Directorate General for Health and Consumers (SANCO) to request the release of the shipment based on the existing arrangements agreed by both sides that allow Canadian horsemeat into the EU. Consequently, French authorities have revisited their actions and once again permit access for these products."

We understand there may be a requirement to amend the current export certificate, but at this time, CFIA officials have not been formally notified.
HWAC continues to work with AAFC and CFIA and will provide additional information as it becomes available.


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## Gremmy

Interesting. So this was all a ripple effect from a shipment being held in France. It makes sense that we turned U.S. horses away then, if we were facing the possibility of not being able to sell the meat from U.S. sources to one of our largest importers. 

Unfortunately I think this is a sign of things to come - the EU is tightening its standards and Canada is trying to keep up, it helps that we have a domestic market for horse meat to support that improvement. I hope we keep improving, with the passport system we already have established through Equine Canada it shouldn't be too much of a stretch. I'm not one for increased regulation but having that kind of history on any horse you acquire would have a LOT of benefits.

Since the U.S. does not have a horse meat industry, there's not incentive to meet the EU's standards on horse meat. Our processors will eventually have to stop accepting undocumented horses, and American slaughter-bound horses will remain an American responsibility.


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## Catpeedontherug

http://rtfitchauthor.com/2012/11/19...ntinue-to-be-non-compliant-with-eu-standards/I found this article:
AA Investigation: Mexico Horse Slaughter Plants Continue to Be Non-Compliant with EU Standards


*Animals’ Angels* investigators observed harsh conditions in *EU approved Mexican slaughterhouses *during an intensive investigation conducted in September 2012. The goal of this follow up investigation was to check if any improvements had been made since the 2007/2008 investigations had revealed abhorrent conditions. Animal welfare investigators are accustomed to observing the most egregious treatment of animals. Even the slightest improvements are welcome, but do not bring a cease fire to the battle for humane treatment of all animals transported to slaughter. 
*EU inspections* of Mexican slaughter houses are scheduled in advance, clearly giving notice to the slaughterhouses to comply with regulations on that one day of inspection.​​ Animals’ Angels arrived unannounced at several of the EU approved plants as they observed multiple trucks carrying horses from the US to slaughter. Horses were jammed into transport trailers, resulting in biting and fighting among them. The common use of trailers with no roof is cruel as the intensive sun in the transport areas beats down upon horses already over-heated due to over-crowding and long waiting times inside parked trailers at US broker offices and the border. *(Please read more about this issue here…) *​​ One transport trailer observed arriving at the Inter Meats plant contained many emaciated horses and others with snotty noses and discharge-clotted eyes. After traveling at least 16 hours with no food or water, they were unloaded in pens with no food or water during observance by the investigators.
Alarmingly, amongst them were BLM branded horses. These mustangs were shipped by Triple Crown Ranch from Meeker,OK. Examination of owner/shipper paperwork by Triple Crown Ranch reveals identical information as to previous certificates, as if Triple Crown has shipped the same group of horses over and over again. This is in clear violation of paperwork intended to track contaminated meat. Investigators left when told by slaughterhouse personnel to cease filming.
The following day, investigators arrived at *Carnicos de Jerez* slaughterhouse in Jerez, MX observing that a solid block wall and manned security gate had been erected around the premises blocking all view from outside the premises.
Investigators proceeded to *Empacadora de Ganadera de Camargo*, the newest EU approved plant. The horses were held in open pens at the Carmargo plant, exposed to the hot Mexican sun, with limited access to food and water. Many of the horses were extremely emaciated and investigators found a *downed horse* that slaughterhouse staff did not check during the time of the observation.
A large pit holding horse carcasses was found. The bodies were left uncovered for vultures to eat. There were bones and body parts scattered throughout the area. The smell of decomposition filled the air. Horses’ tails and hair could be seen drying on wooden planks with the USDA tags still attached, some stuffed into feedbags.
While being moved the horses were forced to walk through areas with no bedding or traction. *The slippery floors caused several to fall with full force.*
Prior to entering the killbox, horses are subjected to a pressurized water shower resulting in one horse to panic during our time of observation. The horse tried to jump the chute’s concrete wall; workers forced him back into the chute, but he obtained a bleeding face injury in this struggle.
Our investigators were able to obtain documentation of the slaughter process. Led into a kill pen, the horse is stunned by a captive bolt. The left hind leg is secured with a chain in order to hang the horse from a beam. Blood is drawn for testing. They are then cut open and bled out.
As explained in our full *investigative report* (*Warning – report contains graphic images)* , the investigation revealed several areas of concern.
*Council Directive 2002/99/EC* states that third countries importing meat into the European Union have to comply  with Community Legislation.Obviously this is not happening. Specifically, animal welfare requirements at slaughter must be met in accordance with *Council Directive 93/119/EC. *
Observations at the Camargo plant show that horses slip and fall during movement to the plant due to slippery surfaces. Additionally, one horse panicked after being showered and tried to escape over the concrete wall of the chute obtaining a bleeding face injury. A non-ambulatory horse was observed which did not receive immediate attention. Observations at the Camargo plant as well as the Aguacalientes plant show that horses did not have access to water at all times.
Horses are transported to the plant in open roof trailers that offer absolutely no protection from the desert sun. Loaded trailers are parked for an extended time at border crossings and checkpoints, causing overheating.


Evidence obtained by *Animals’ Angels* shows that the paperwork used to identify the horses in the individual shipment is often falsified and therefore not reliable. The information regarding sex, breed and age of the horses in different shipments is identical on multiple owner/shipper certificates. Consequently, it can’t be determined where the horses in such shipments originated.
Slaughterhouses and suppliers are in clear violation of EU standards yet the violations continue unabated with no repercussions. Animals’ Angels investigations are used to educate consumers in the EU, citing mistreatment and possible contamination of the American horse meat they pay a premium for.
*Link to the full investigation report… 
(Warning – report contains graphic images)*

*Watch the undercover video from the Camargo plant investigation..
(Warning – video contains extremely graphic images that might the disturbing to some. Viewer discretion is advised) *


----------



## Catpeedontherug

*Mex. Slaughter House Investigated*

I found this article:
AA Investigation: Mexico Horse Slaughter Plants Continue to Be Non-Compliant with EU Standards


*Animals’ Angels* investigators observed harsh conditions in *EU approved Mexican slaughterhouses *during an intensive investigation conducted in September 2012. The goal of this follow up investigation was to check if any improvements had been made since the 2007/2008 investigations had revealed abhorrent conditions. Animal welfare investigators are accustomed to observing the most egregious treatment of animals. Even the slightest improvements are welcome, but do not bring a cease fire to the battle for humane treatment of all animals transported to slaughter. 
*EU inspections* of Mexican slaughter houses are scheduled in advance, clearly giving notice to the slaughterhouses to comply with regulations on that one day of inspection.​ Animals’ Angels arrived unannounced at several of the EU approved plants as they observed multiple trucks carrying horses from the US to slaughter. Horses were jammed into transport trailers, resulting in biting and fighting among them. The common use of trailers with no roof is cruel as the intensive sun in the transport areas beats down upon horses already over-heated due to over-crowding and long waiting times inside parked trailers at US broker offices and the border. *(Please read more about this issue here…) *​ One transport trailer observed arriving at the Inter Meats plant contained many emaciated horses and others with snotty noses and discharge-clotted eyes. After traveling at least 16 hours with no food or water, they were unloaded in pens with no food or water during observance by the investigators.
Alarmingly, amongst them were BLM branded horses. These mustangs were shipped by Triple Crown Ranch from Meeker,OK. Examination of owner/shipper paperwork by Triple Crown Ranch reveals identical information as to previous certificates, as if Triple Crown has shipped the same group of horses over and over again. This is in clear violation of paperwork intended to track contaminated meat. Investigators left when told by slaughterhouse personnel to cease filming.
The following day, investigators arrived at *Carnicos de Jerez* slaughterhouse in Jerez, MX observing that a solid block wall and manned security gate had been erected around the premises blocking all view from outside the premises.
Investigators proceeded to *Empacadora de Ganadera de Camargo*, the newest EU approved plant. The horses were held in open pens at the Carmargo plant, exposed to the hot Mexican sun, with limited access to food and water. Many of the horses were extremely emaciated and investigators found a *downed horse* that slaughterhouse staff did not check during the time of the observation.
A large pit holding horse carcasses was found. The bodies were left uncovered for vultures to eat. There were bones and body parts scattered throughout the area. The smell of decomposition filled the air. Horses’ tails and hair could be seen drying on wooden planks with the USDA tags still attached, some stuffed into feedbags.
While being moved the horses were forced to walk through areas with no bedding or traction. *The slippery floors caused several to fall with full force.*
Prior to entering the killbox, horses are subjected to a pressurized water shower resulting in one horse to panic during our time of observation. The horse tried to jump the chute’s concrete wall; workers forced him back into the chute, but he obtained a bleeding face injury in this struggle.
Our investigators were able to obtain documentation of the slaughter process. Led into a kill pen, the horse is stunned by a captive bolt. The left hind leg is secured with a chain in order to hang the horse from a beam. Blood is drawn for testing. They are then cut open and bled out.
As explained in our full *investigative report* (*Warning – report contains graphic images)* , the investigation revealed several areas of concern.
*Council Directive 2002/99/EC* states that third countries importing meat into the European Union have to comply with Community Legislation.Obviously this is not happening. Specifically, animal welfare requirements at slaughter must be met in accordance with *Council Directive 93/119/EC. *
Observations at the Camargo plant show that horses slip and fall during movement to the plant due to slippery surfaces. Additionally, one horse panicked after being showered and tried to escape over the concrete wall of the chute obtaining a bleeding face injury. A non-ambulatory horse was observed which did not receive immediate attention. Observations at the Camargo plant as well as the Aguacalientes plant show that horses did not have access to water at all times.
Horses are transported to the plant in open roof trailers that offer absolutely no protection from the desert sun. Loaded trailers are parked for an extended time at border crossings and checkpoints, causing overheating.


Evidence obtained by *Animals’ Angels* shows that the paperwork used to identify the horses in the individual shipment is often falsified and therefore not reliable. The information regarding sex, breed and age of the horses in different shipments is identical on multiple owner/shipper certificates. Consequently, it can’t be determined where the horses in such shipments originated.
Slaughterhouses and suppliers are in clear violation of EU standards yet the violations continue unabated with no repercussions. Animals’ Angels investigations are used to educate consumers in the EU, citing mistreatment and possible contamination of the American horse meat they pay a premium for.
*Link to the full investigation report… 
(Warning – report contains graphic images)*

*Watch the undercover video from the Camargo plant investigation..
(Warning – video contains extremely graphic images that might the disturbing to some. Viewer discretion is advised) *


----------



## enzoleya

Oh no...this makes me sick. If they are going to shut down horse slaughter they need to enforce animal cruelty laws. I feel sorry for every unwanted horse this winter  We frequent the Kalona Sale Barn here in Iowa, it has been in the news many times because of the kill pens. Last month when we went there were a ton of horses that were no sale and some that went for $25 to the "kill pen buyers". I try not to think about what happened to the horses that were no sales.


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## Nokotaheaven




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## Nokotaheaven

Canadian Slaughter Plant Shooting Horses - YouTube


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## AQHA13

bsms said:


> A 90 lb bale never dropped below $17 this year. I won't be surprised if it hits $25 this winter. At 3, I have one more horse than I use, but I'm sure I could get a bunch for free this winter...
> 
> :>(


Holy Smokes! I paid $9 a bale for the same size, and I thought that was a lot. :shock:


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## Cherie

Cat and Nokota - Why are you posting this? You will find that AA and PETA have no friends here. If either of you own or ride horses, they are not your friends either. 

Why don't you work instead to get slaughter plants opened in many places here in the US where they can be monitored and the whole process can handle horses more humanely and safely?

The only other solution is for the 2 of you to go out and buy them all, feed them for the next 1 to 20 years, care properly for them and give them homes. Even billionaire Madelyn Pickens can't do that. So get real. Stopping slaughter now will only result in more horses starving to death or being neglected to the point that they would be better off dead. 

Just think about it. Just look at what plan you have [NONE] for the replacement of slaughter as it stands now. 

There are ALWAYS going to be unwanted horses. Just WHAT IS YOUR PLAN for them????


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## bsms

Cherie, it is simple. Kiss them on the nose and turn them loose in a remote valley in Utah. It is the Hollywood way...

The Electric Horseman - The release of Rising Star (HQ) - YouTube

Of course, if anyone turned my horses loose in a place with grass, they'd just drop their heads and graze. My formerly wild mustang doesn't exactly look like they do in the movies, either. Hmmm...is something wrong? How many generations does it take for "Rising Star" to turn into "Stubby Pony" (aka Cowboy)? Although "Stubby Pony" would probably last longer in the wild! He knows how to eat and conserve energy.


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## bsms

I suppose, in fairness to little Cowboy, I ought to admit that very few people mistake me for a younger Robert Redford. Or even an older one. It's probably the helmet. Or the glasses. Or the extra pounds. Or the odd tan on my arms. Or....










Life. It just isn't much like the movies...


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## enzoleya

It's illegal to release non-native animals into the wild. Livestock is not a native species. 

It's a great idea in theory, and yes some people are doing it, but it's dangerous to the horse and people. Imagine hitting a horse while your driving down the highway in an area that should not have wild horses. Releasing non-native animals into the wild seems to be something that is enforced, not feeding livestock doesn't hold much ground unless you have a rescue group on your side. 

I wish I still had the pictures I took at our local sale barn. It was disgusting. People were bringing in horses that should have been put down months ago, but there they were, laying in the kill pens waiting for a long time coming death. I got in trouble for taking pictures, but I would love to do it again some day to show why we have slaughter houses. For example, there was a horse that was litterally drug by the leg into the kill pen because at least one leg was broke. He had raw flesh from laying in feces for far too long. There was another horse whose face looked like it was peeled off and hanging from his chin, it was dry other than the puss dripping off. Many other horses laying around with what I would call feces burns because they couldn't stand up, or horses with flesh hanging from their shoulders/chests/etc. Old bandages on their legs that had grown into their flesh. It's disgusting. These horses do not go through the regular kill pen auction, they stay in the back and are bought directly from those pens. You have to go through gates, crawl over fences, and sometimes through other loose pen horses just to get to the really bad ones. They know better than to put those horses where people can see. We have stayed after dark -when they load up these horses- just to see how bad it is. 

I'll try to get pictures of horses like this again and show you why I think slaughter houses are helpful. Unless we change the laws and actually send people to jail for not caring for their horses, then there HAS to be horse slaughter. It's only fair to the horses.


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## natisha

enzoleya said:


> It's illegal to release non-native animals into the wild. Livestock is not a native species.
> 
> It's a great idea in theory, and yes some people are doing it, but it's dangerous to the horse and people. Imagine hitting a horse while your driving down the highway in an area that should not have wild horses. Releasing non-native animals into the wild seems to be something that is enforced, not feeding livestock doesn't hold much ground unless you have a rescue group on your side.
> 
> I wish I still had the pictures I took at our local sale barn. It was disgusting. People were bringing in horses that should have been put down months ago, but there they were, laying in the kill pens waiting for a long time coming death. I got in trouble for taking pictures, but I would love to do it again some day to show why we have slaughter houses. For example, there was a horse that was litterally drug by the leg into the kill pen because at least one leg was broke. He had raw flesh from laying in feces for far too long. There was another horse whose face looked like it was peeled off and hanging from his chin, it was dry other than the puss dripping off. Many other horses laying around with what I would call feces burns because they couldn't stand up, or horses with flesh hanging from their shoulders/chests/etc. Old bandages on their legs that had grown into their flesh. It's disgusting. These horses do not go through the regular kill pen auction, they stay in the back and are bought directly from those pens. You have to go through gates, crawl over fences, and sometimes through other loose pen horses just to get to the really bad ones. They know better than to put those horses where people can see. We have stayed after dark -when they load up these horses- just to see how bad it is.
> 
> I'll try to get pictures of horses like this again and show you why I think slaughter houses are helpful. Unless we change the laws and actually send people to jail for not caring for their horses, then there HAS to be horse slaughter. It's only fair to the horses.


Then after all that agony they are forced to endure a truck ride to an awful death. What is humane about any of that? Those horse wouldn't be there if slaughter wasn't an option for their nasty owners. Yes, they'd still be suffering somewhere but that's not because there is or isn't slaughter- it's because some people don't care.


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## enzoleya

natisha said:


> Then after all that agony they are forced to endure a truck ride to an awful death. What is humane about any of that? Those horse wouldn't be there if slaughter wasn't an option for their nasty owners. Yes, they'd still be suffering somewhere but that's not because there is or isn't slaughter- it's because some people don't care.


They would still be at home rotting away, how is that better? Those people aren't going to care just because there is or isn't horse slaughter. It's a way out for the horse when no one else cares. I've tried calling the police plenty of times about horse abuse/neglect, they just don't care unless the horse is laying in the pasture dead and even then it's just a slap on the wrist, maybe a $500 fine. I've followed up on some of the cases here in Iowa, and that's literally what happens.

If people were held accountable I would not be ok with horse slaughter, but because they can do that and get away with it, I will always believe horse slaughter is better. One day of being shipped and killed is better than laying in a pasture for months slowly dying from starvation, blood poisoning, or whatever else they have to endure.


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## Saddlebag

If the Canadian plants are shooting horses, rather than sensationalize this why not come up with a solution. It was romantic notions that originally closed all the American plants. The horses can't be shipped by, to whom. It makes me sick but the plants are a realistic solution. BTW, when my old horse was put down it was with a bullet and instant. Yes, the legs kick but the horse is brain dead. Don't think people don't do this with instant death in an accident. No one films it.


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## COWCHICK77

Cherie said:


> Cat and Nokota - Why are you posting this? You will find that AA and PETA have no friends here. If either of you own or ride horses, they are not your friends either.
> 
> Why don't you work instead to get slaughter plants opened in many places here in the US where they can be monitored and the whole process can handle horses more humanely and safely?
> 
> The only other solution is for the 2 of you to go out and buy them all, feed them for the next 1 to 20 years, care properly for them and give them homes. Even billionaire Madelyn Pickens can't do that. So get real. Stopping slaughter now will only result in more horses starving to death or being neglected to the point that they would be better off dead.
> 
> Just think about it. Just look at what plan you have [NONE] for the replacement of slaughter as it stands now.
> 
> There are ALWAYS going to be unwanted horses. Just WHAT IS YOUR PLAN for them????


Good post.

A little off topic...
Madeleine Pickens, GAH!, a bored TX oil tycoon housewife with too much money and nothing better to do....

I never researched this, but this was some Wells, NV gossip last spring... so take it for what it is worth.
She bought a place close to Wells, some private deeded ground that came with a BLM grazing permit/lease. She bought it with the intention of turning it into a wild horse sanctuary. The ranch supported so many AUs (animal units) of cattle. She _assumed _that she could turn out as many horses as cattle. Anyhow the BLM put the kybosh on that. She had planned on turning out about 1000 head of horses and turn it into a drive through zoo. BLM said she could only turn out a handful of what she had wanted and she got her panties wadded.
If she was truly educated on the subject she would understand Animal Units, how they were measured and why. Pretty basic when it comes to land and animal management.

My point is, folks need to do the research and understand what they are defending before they jump on the band wagon whether it be wild ponies or horse slaughter. I put PETA and Madeleine Pickins in the same category.


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## RiverBelle

I know there are a lot of people who are against horse slaughter, me being one of them until recently. But I have seen the price on horses go down to nothing and the price of feed go up to ridiculous prices. I support horse slaughter, as long as it is done humanely. I mean, which death would you prefer? Slow and painful starvation from not being fed because your owners can't afford it, or a quick painless death from the hand of electrical shock or a bullet through the head? Again, the death must be humane and quick, but as long as that is followed, I think horse slaughter is something the horse community needs. In my opinion.


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## RiverBelle

enzoleya said:


> It's illegal to release non-native animals into the wild. Livestock is not a native species.
> 
> It's a great idea in theory, and yes some people are doing it, but it's dangerous to the horse and people. Imagine hitting a horse while your driving down the highway in an area that should not have wild horses. Releasing non-native animals into the wild seems to be something that is enforced, not feeding livestock doesn't hold much ground unless you have a rescue group on your side.
> 
> I wish I still had the pictures I took at our local sale barn. It was disgusting. People were bringing in horses that should have been put down months ago, but there they were, laying in the kill pens waiting for a long time coming death. I got in trouble for taking pictures, but I would love to do it again some day to show why we have slaughter houses. For example, there was a horse that was litterally drug by the leg into the kill pen because at least one leg was broke. He had raw flesh from laying in feces for far too long. There was another horse whose face looked like it was peeled off and hanging from his chin, it was dry other than the puss dripping off. Many other horses laying around with what I would call feces burns because they couldn't stand up, or horses with flesh hanging from their shoulders/chests/etc. Old bandages on their legs that had grown into their flesh. It's disgusting. These horses do not go through the regular kill pen auction, they stay in the back and are bought directly from those pens. You have to go through gates, crawl over fences, and sometimes through other loose pen horses just to get to the really bad ones. They know better than to put those horses where people can see. We have stayed after dark -when they load up these horses- just to see how bad it is.
> 
> I'll try to get pictures of horses like this again and show you why I think slaughter houses are helpful. Unless we change the laws and actually send people to jail for not caring for their horses, then there HAS to be horse slaughter. It's only fair to the horses.


I AGREE COMPLETELY!!! People also don't understand that a wild horse and a domesticated horse are two different things. A wild horse knows how to survive in the wild, how to find food and water and where to go when the snow begins to blow in. domesticated horses only know how to drink from a water trough, eat hay that is thrown to them, and go inside a man-made shed to stay dry and warm. If someone let a horse into the wild that had never seen the wild before, it would die fairly quickly.

There were people here in Kentucky letting horses go in the state parks. Seemed like a good idea - plenty of grass, plenty of water, and plenty of trees for shelter.. But instead, people found that the horses they let loose were starving to death, or found dead from dehydration..... 

On a side note, I am glad this forum is pro slaughter more-so than against it.


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## Catpeedontherug

RiverBelle said:


> . I support horse slaughter, as long as it is done humanely. I mean, which death would you prefer? Slow and painful starvation from not being fed because your owners can't afford it, or a quick painless death from the hand of electrical shock or a bullet through the head?


I really appreciate that you see that it needs to be done humanely!!! But, going to slaughter is neither quick or painless. It's completely inhumane and terrifying.
Have you seen how they prep the horses? omg. It's downright cruel.


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