# HYPP Complacency and Misinformation muddying the waters...or what?



## Zexious

Personally, I think that breeding an H/H, and possibly even an N/H, horse should not be allowed in either AQHA or APHA. 

When I was sixteen I purchased my first horse (after riding them since I was 7, and leasing two of them). She was an 8 month old APHA filly that I had planned to training myself (I was in WAY over my head, but that's a different story). Now, I had been a Hunter/Jumper rider all my life, and had ridden Warmbloods and Thoroughbreds almost exclusively. I had very little knowledge of the Paint world. Being young and dumb, I purchased this filly without doing much research on her.

Fast forward three years, and I realize this isn't the horse for me. She will likely never be competitive in the H/J ring, and that's what I love to do. As a 19 year old college student, I simply cannot afford a horse that I can't enjoy. So I try to sell her. 

Needless to say, there are lots of crazy people out there, and I dealt with a whole handful of them.
Finally, I found someone interested in Mia as a low level Dressage mount and possibly for driving. Her first issue was that her horse horoscope didn't match up with the ladies (What?!) But she seemed to get over that problem, and we made all arrangements for her to purchase and pick up Mia.
The day before she was set to leave, I get an e-mail about HYPP. Apparently Mia's sire had it. He must have been H/N. I had never heard of this before, but the woman flew off the handle at me. She tried accusing me of lying to her about it, of being a bad person, the list went on and on. Yes I should have done my research. Yes, this something I should have known about. But no, she did not have the right to react the way she did. A simple "I have to pass on this horse for 'x' reason" would have sufficed. 

I hurriedly did my research, read as much as I could on it. I contacted her previous owners (who claimed they knew nothing about it... But I find king of hard to believe, as they are very active in the Paint horse world), as well as the studs owners. I had her tested, and she was N/N.

So, yeah. That's where my feelings about HYPP stem.
I think people who knowingly breed H/H or H/N are selfish, and there is often dishonesty involved. 
A foal's status DOES matter to me, as it could effect the quality of it's life for the /rest/ of its life.
I would never buy an H/H or H/N for breeding purposes. It should be something that ends here, but people are greedy.

Granted, this all happened a few years ago. (2. Boop.) I hope things have changed for the better.


----------



## CLaPorte432

From what I understand, AQHA is supposed to be phasing out HYPP. If I remember correctly, they will not register HYPP H/H horses. And HYPP status must be present on on papers...

Its great to see a responsible breeder. Congrats to you.

now here's a question for you. Do YOU breed outside mares that are N/H or H/H? Or are you strictly only breeding N/N mares and must see proof before breeding occurs?

To answer your questions. No, I will not buy a N/H or H/H horse. I will not support irresponsible breeding. I would never breed to anything that isn't N/N. For any genetic disorder as a matter of fact. 

The only exception being LWOS. I would breed a N/O horse. To a N/N because there is no chance of there being a complication and getting a lethal white foal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wakiya

HYPP, HERDA, etc are not present in my breed but I have seen what the conditions have done to afflicted horses and it is my opinion that horses testing positive should not be bred. The disease needs to be purged.


----------



## MyBoySi

I personally think breeding H/H or N/H is a crappy, irresponsible thing to do. The only ones gaining from it are the humans breeding/showing/profiting from such horses. 

I'm glad the AQHA is phasing it out. 

I have an N/H gelding on a free lifetime lease, he is the horse I learned to ride on, I didn't even know he was N/H until he was offered to me. Although he is so far non symptomatic he was deemed too much of a risk to keep on as a lesson horse although he had been one for 6+ years.

Its not a nice thought to know my horse could literally die at any moment because his breeders were irresponsible. If he were not such a special horse to me I never would have gotten him and don't plan on ever getting another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## oh vair oh

H/H horses are not allowed to be registered in AQHA, and I think APHA is starting to follow suit. All horses with Impressive MUST be tested and the information provided on their papers in AQHA. 

HYPP status is scientifically not linked to muscle size. There have been many successful N/H riding horses such as Vital Signs are Good who do not display the huge musculature. 

I know of several people who own N/H horses and love them to death, know how to take care of their needs, and are largely non symptomatic with proper diet and care. The horses are happy and pain free.

My breed show friends and I have seen more horses die suddenly from either an aneurism or heart attack with a rider on than an HYPP attack...

I wouldn't own an N/H horse because I don't know how to take care of them, but the people who are responsible for taking care of their horses with special needs can certainly mitigate some of the risks involved with owning an N/H horse. They are being phased out, but the bloodlines attached to them are what make them popular show horses and give people income and make the horses valuable, which is why it's hard to get away from them.


----------



## Saddlebag

My qh is NH and I have made minor feed adjustments and ignored the story that was meant to scare people that was all over the internet. I have no regrets. These horses drink a lot of water, something that can't be skimped on or ignored as it helps wash excess potassium from the body. He gets both a lick and loose salt to be sure he gets enough. He prefers loose.


----------



## Saddlebag

Impressive was used extensively without the knowledge of his condition because it began with him. It wasn't for a number of years that this was researched by the equine medical community that it was discovered. By then his bloodlines were spread far and wide. At that time Impressive babies were winning at halter but nowadays there are so many other fine stallions that this will one day be a thing of the past.


----------



## KigerQueen

I'm against breeding ANYTHING with a genetic disorder. Its called a disorder for a reason. HYPP is bad, HERDA is worst, and OWLS is just irresponsible breeding. If I bred a horse and I get something out that was not healthy (JEB, HYPP,HERDA, OWLS) I would never breed that mare again. If it was something she had never produced (assuming I'm nob and had not had a genetic panel done) I would have the mare tested for everything. If she came back negative I would not only confront the breeder, I would NEVER use that stud. Some show breeders forget we are breeding animals for longevity, not for them to last maybe 5 years. 

If you dont know What JEB is here is a link
Junctional Epidermolysis Bullosa (JEB) in Belgian Draft Horses: AAEP 2003 | TheHorse.com


----------



## PaintHorseMares

The idea that you need an HYPP horse to be well muscled for halter is just not true. The Impressive line obviously (to me) contains other characteristics besides HYPP that contribute to their conformation. Consider our Impressive line N/N mother/daughter mares, both built like tanks.


----------



## KigerQueen

I like a stocky bulky horse, as long as its healthy. Your mares are beautiful! I love that type of QH/Paint and am glad to see them healthy. I have nothing against these lines, as long as they are healthy and HYPP free . (And as long as their legs don't look like fence posts)


----------



## PaintHorseMares

KigerQueen said:


> I like a stocky bulky horse, as long as its healthy. Your mares are beautiful! I love that type of QH/Paint and am glad to see them healthy.


Thanks. We're anxiously waiting to see how their grandson/son 2013 colt turns out. It's always hard to tell with the little ones, but here at 8 months he's looking like he's going to be a big boy, too.


----------



## dbarabians

KigerQueen said:


> I'm against breeding ANYTHING with a genetic disorder. Its called a disorder for a reason. HYPP is bad, HERDA is worst, and OWLS is just irresponsible breeding. If I bred a horse and I get something out that was not healthy (JEB, HYPP,HERDA, OWLS) I would never breed that mare again. If it was something she had never produced (assuming I'm nob and had not had a genetic panel done) I would have the mare tested for everything. If she came back negative I would not only confront the breeder, I would NEVER use that stud. Some show breeders forget we are breeding animals for longevity, not for them to last maybe 5 years.
> 
> If you dont know What JEB is here is a link
> Junctional Epidermolysis Bullosa (JEB) in Belgian Draft Horses: AAEP 2003 | TheHorse.com


 I agree somewhat with you kigerqueen. However with SCID and a few other genetic disorders a carrier bred to a non carrier will not cause the horse to be symptomatic of the disorder. In fact as long as you do not breed to carriers then the disorder is benign.
All my mares are genetically safe and so are my stallions.
I would not hesitate to breed them to a SCID carrier if the mare or stallion had something to add to my herd. 
HYPP however is different and breeding any horse not NN to me is unsafe and unethical. Shalom


----------



## littrella

I have never breed horses, but I have raised many litters of puppies in the past. My problems with breeding any animal with a genetic disorder is, you can not control what goes on with the offspring of that animal, if you end up selling it. Who's to say that the next owner of a carrier of said condition, will not breed it with another carrier of said condition & continue the condition to the next generation. Even if you have a contract saying that the animal is not to be breed because of genetic disorder, you can't guarentee it wont happen


----------



## NdAppy

Ah but there in lies the question. Where do you draw the line. Quite breeding frame overos/OLWs horses? Say goodbye to that pattern. Etc, etc.


----------



## KigerQueen

When i mean OWLS i mean to not breed two horses that WILL make a lethal white foal.


----------



## NdAppy

It's still breeding a technical genetic defect. :wink: I'm also pointing it out to the other people in this thread as well.


----------



## dbarabians

Breeders have tests available to them that allow safe responsible breeding of carriers to non carriers. HYPP being the exception of just being a carrier and having symptoms of the disorder.
To address something an earlier person posted. Impressive had no signs of HYPP. Shalom


----------



## littrella

My personal opnion on OWLS is a positive animal should not be breed. Neat color patterns should not over rule a genetic defect. How many times have people been told not to buy for color or that color should be the last factor in deciding to buy a horse.


----------



## dbarabians

OLWS can be bred safely if one tests and knows if either sire or dam is a carrier. 
Just because a horse if frame or a carrier should not keep it out of the genetic pool. Since thousands of horses are frame carriers this just makes since to know the status of breeding stock.
I think breeders understand this more than most in the horse industry. Shalom


----------



## littrella

I agree that responsible breeder know this & do the testing. But we have all seen the results of careless breeding all too often. One litter of puppies that I breed, as an example, I had kept a male as a hunt trial prospect. He ended up having a genetic disorder called EIC, exercise induced collaspe. I had never heard of this condition before this dog. I placed him in a home as a pet, told them that he could not be used as a stud because of the condition, has his reg. papers limited. even had them sign a nuter contract. Found out several years later, they had breed him to several other females. In hind sight, I should have nutered him before placing him to ensure that he didn't reproduce. I have no idea of knowing how many puppies he produced that carried on that defect


----------



## oh vair oh

littrella said:


> My personal opnion on OWLS is a positive animal should not be breed. Neat color patterns should not over rule a genetic defect. How many times have people been told not to buy for color or that color should be the last factor in deciding to buy a horse.


There are no living "OLWS positive" horses (they die if they are homozygous positive). There are only living OLWS carriers, aka frame overos. Semantics, I know. But when you breed APHA horses for a small income the majority of your choices for world champion stallions happen to be frame overos.  Which is why we responsibly choose to breed them to non-frame mares, but the foals do have a 50/50 chance of carrying frame.

I can only control what I can control. If I lived my life worrying about what stupid humans would do, I would never do anything, aha.


----------



## Ace80908

I have an Impressive bred (n/n) mare that is also OLWS (frame overo). I LOVE the impressive lines - they are versatile, beautiful headed, and athletic as a rule. Daisy is a great example of the Impressive cross with a Superior WP Stud - she has won several grands in halter competition, got her Register of Merit in 4 shows in NA trail, and can do a big lofty trot for HUS but can also be slow and deep for western. She has points in Halter, WP, HUS, Trail, the eq classes and even a few barrel racing points. 

I am extremely excited to see what she produces. 

I am breeding her to a n/n son of Vital Signs Are Good - VS Code Blue. Vital Signs are Good is considered by many to be the greatest show mare that has ever lived, winning 11 World Championships and over 30 Congress Championships, as well as having $267,000. lifetime earnings recorded. Her offspring have won over $500,000. in lifetime earnings and too many titles to list. 

Vital Signs Are Good is N/H. And I have to admit, she muddies the right and wrong of breeding these horses for me personally. She has produced (thanks to embryo transfer) many n/n horses that are passing on her incredible talent - redefining pleasure horses in the AQHA and APHA world. 

So because someone saw her talent and bred her despite her n/h status, we have studs like VS Flatline, VS Code Red, and VS Code Blue - all n/n Quarter horse studs that have extensive show records and produce fantastic riders. She has also produced n/h studs that have died - so the risk is still there.

I have owned a n/h horse in the past, and would not choose to own one again, but there are those that do, and are succesful.

Me personally, the frame overo pattern is beautiful and is not in my eyes a defect - I know not to breed her to another OLWS carrier so she will never produce a lethal white. It is a non issue in my book. I am just hopeful that in 2015 I'll have a little red roan frame overo filly out of some really amazing horses.


----------



## KigerQueen

I love overos . My OWLS comment is basicly Don't breed two together. Get them tested and if both are Frame Overos, then pick a different stud. The thing about OWLS is most of the times you can SEE if a horse if frame overo (I know it can hide but most irresponsible cases are "ooh they are both a purdy kolor! They should have a baby!"). I think if all mares and studs should have genetic testing. It should also be required and paid for by the registry. That way, genetic defects, resulting in foal death (OWLS, HERDA, JEB) and long term effects is solely on the breeder.

Personally I would not breed a, or to a N/H horse, BUT that being said, there are cases where they can produce good horses that are N/N. I would also never breed a/to a HERDA (or if I get belgian fever, JEB) horse. There are SO MANY good healthy horses to pick and breed to, why would I NEED to breed to one with a disorder? 

I understand the show records but the QH and APHA are the largest registries in the world, and more are bred than most other breeds. That being said if my pickings where slim in america i could also import semen.

Again I don't breed so take everything i say with a grain of salt.


----------



## Zexious

^They can. But it's a gamble I don't think people should be willing to take.


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

Thank you for sharing your story. As a mother of 2, and with many troubled kids having stayed at our house with a horse to care for & show, when my daughter's game horse twisted & colicked at age 26, there was nobody to blame, yet she still took that loss so hard it was a very long before she went back into the barn-and she never did show again. Imagining how a kid would feel knowing their horse may pass anytime from a genetic disorder that is totally preventable by selective breeding-or minimally should be fully disclosed to potential buyers.


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

*The HYPP Issue-Thank you for your sharing your stories-well worth reading.*

*Each story shared has a message which to me seems to say enough is enough. While its true Impressive did not have the disease, it is also true that "back in the day" when a stallion would fill a book of 80 mares, & with many of sons of Impressive standing at stud throughout North America, this dominant genetic defect spread like wildfire. 

In the fall of 1986 I had the opportunity to have an enlightening conversation with Impressive's private vet, (Dr. XXXX XXXXXXX, DVM) & as I discussed this strange, variable symptoms of this "syndrome" which seemed prevalent in our area-especially effecting the offspring of a son of Impressive who was breeding many mares each year in our area. Several were boarded in our barn-all symptomatic. Prior to my conversation with Dr. Johnson about Hyperkalemia and its dominant genetic link, we did not know what we were dealing with, much less how to treat it. Even now horror stories of people taking their HH or even N/H horses off their daily meds and then finding them dead the next day are not uncommon. The horror of watching a horse suffocate, even if it recovers, or seeing them appear to be tying up to the point of going down, was something I did not want our, or any, happy, confident group of young Barn Rats to have to see-or ever have deal with as a personal loss.

Your input is very helpful in trying to reach out to those on the Breeders Committee for some breeds known to have Impressive genes in the breed and therefore need to test for it, and make a firm decision about whether horses with the defective HYPP gene should be allowed to be used for breeding. The genetics these horses carry are already in the gene pool, and until selectively bred out, there is no need to further pollute the existing gene pool for the AQHA, PHBA, ApHC the APHA and other breeds known to carry HYPP. Just the opposite is called for.*

*“Success does not consist in never making mistakes but in never making the same one a second time.” -George Bernard Shaw*


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

*We breed N/N mares, and actually we do also breed our N/N stallion to N/H mares, but we do not breed any H/H mares. One of our N/N broodmares has a dam who was N/H and sire who was N/N, she's the result of luck is my lovely HYPP N/N broodmare who of course when bred to our N/N stallion produced a neat snowcapped colt, also N/N, as all others of that same cross will be. 
That's what we're after-although when the genetics chart is studied it adds an element of risk when breeding any horse that isn't N/N, since technically if an N/H mare were to have 8 foals and was bred to a N/N stallion each time, the chances are she would only have 2 N/N babies out of the 8 foals even with N/N sires for all 8. *


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

That's how these genetic disorders can take off if not stopped by selective breeding!


----------



## Tryst

I am in favor of no N/H horses ever being bred - mare or stallion. You could effectively eliminate the disease in one generation! There is so much genetic diversity in QH that are N/N that the loss in that regards is small.

Sweetwater farm I find it somewhat interesting that you come on here with a 'Holier than Thou' attitude about your N/N stallion (which I think is great), but then to on to say that you will breed him to N/H mares. WHAT?? You are propagating the gene unless you are doing ET and testing the embryos for HYPP status. And you math is wrong... An N/N bred to N/H will statistically result in half N/N and half N/H offspring.

I would never own or breed an N/H horse. It would be a deal breaker for me, no matter how nice that horse was! Yes, when it is a top winner it is tragic. If you have the money to test embryos that is the only responsible way to breed an N/H horse IMO.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

My stallion, Skip N My Assets, is Conclusive (Impressive) top and bottom and is N/N. I wouldn't have bought him otherwise. He's got plenty of size and bulk and has that sweet disposition and a pretty, baby doll head. 

I have a mare, Bright As A Star (Honey Boo Boo), who is not Impressive bred at all and SHE also has size and bulk. She's a really pretty mare but I'll put that down to the Skipper W breeding, and she's got a good temper too. I can't wait to see what she and Skippy produce. 

At the time I bought her, she was in foal to an OLWS stallion who is also N/H. I didn't know until the foal was born what kind of roll of the dice I was going to get. Fortunately, he came out solid chestnut and N/N, dodged BOTH bullets. Needless to say, that's not a repeatable breeding as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## rookie

I am not a quarter horse or paint horse owner. I probably never will be. I have ridden a number of lovely horses or crosses from both breeds. I have to say the genetic disorders including HYPP and HERDA are a significant detractor from the breed. While its not the only thing that keeps me from wanting one of these horses it is a significant negative contribution.

I don't have the money/time and space to purchase a horse that has a genetic disorder that requires not only diet restrictions but often expensive medical care. The fact that there are horses that are affected or carriers being used in breeding programs is just poor breeding in my opinion.

Many owners (casual horse owners) are unable to afford or unaware of these conditions. We can't lie and say horses with these conditions don't end up in auction houses or in the hands of less credible sources. Horses are expensive enough why add this issue to them particularly when responsible breeders have the tools required to prevent it from spreading. Its not like the breed looses anything. There are large muscled horses that are so desired in quarter horses who don't have the gene and are not impressive related.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

rookie said:


> I am not a quarter horse or paint horse owner. I probably never will be. I have ridden a number of lovely horses or crosses from both breeds. I have to say the genetic disorders including HYPP and HERDA are a significant detractor from the breed. While its not the only thing that keeps me from wanting one of these horses it is a significant negative contribution.
> 
> I don't have the money/time and space to purchase a horse that has a genetic disorder that requires not only diet restrictions but often expensive medical care. The fact that there are horses that are affected or carriers being used in breeding programs is just poor breeding in my opinion.
> 
> Many owners (casual horse owners) are unable to afford or unaware of these conditions. We can't lie and say horses with these conditions don't end up in auction houses or in the hands of less credible sources. Horses are expensive enough why add this issue to them particularly when responsible breeders have the tools required to prevent it from spreading. Its not like the breed looses anything. There are large muscled horses that are so desired in quarter horses who don't have the gene and are not impressive related.


Being Impressive related isn't the problem, the HYPP status of N/H or H/H is and the fact that Pinto and Paints do not require disclosure of that status is a problem for me. AQHA puts the HYPP results right on their registration papers. 

Their registration regulations require: 

"REG102.8 parentage must be verified through genetic testing before a foal can be registered if:

REG102.8.8 it is foaled January 1, 2007, or after and is a descendant of Impressive 0767246 as required in REG109.3;"

and

"REG109.3 Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis (HYPP) - designation effective for foals born on or after January 1, 1998. HYPP is an inherited autosomal dominant genetic disease. A muscular disease caused by a hereditary genetic defect that leads to uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness, and in severe cases, may lead to collapse and/or death. According to research, this condition exists in certain descendants of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246.

REG109.3.1 The following notification shall be placed on registration certificates of foals descending from the stallion Impressive or any other bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene:

“This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect. AQHA recommends testing to confirm presence or absence of this gene.”

When the parent(s) tracing from the HYPP line has tested negative for HYPP with an appropriate designation appearing on their registration certificate, the above notification is not required, and will, instead, be substituted by the designation “N/N”; or, after testing negative for the gene, the notification may be substituted by the designation “N/N” upon request of the owner at his or her expense.

REG109.3.2 Mandatory testing for HYPP. At such time as AQHA requires mandatory parentage verification of any foals to be registered in either the Numbered or Appendix registry, per REG102.8 any foal tracing to bloodlines known to carry the HYPP gene shall be tested for HYPP at the time the genetic testing for parentage is performed. The results will be designated on the registration certificate in lieu of the above notification. Such testing will not be necessary if the foal’s closest ancestors (parents), tracing to the HYPP line, have been tested negative and designated on their registration certificates; these foals will automatically be designated “N/N” on their registration certificate."

and

"REG109.3.3 Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of the stallion Impressive, #0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested, subject to the conditions in REG109.3.2 above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA."

This is pretty clear and there's no way you can say you aren't aware. If all the registries would require the testing, and restrict registration to N/N only this would eliminate the problem in a very short time. HOWEVER, there's a LOT of money in the halter industry and they are not going to allow that much restriction if they can help it. At this point N/H is as good as it gets and it would take a very large grassroots push to get the restriction tightened up even further. 

These regs are taking further steps to inform and hopefully start leading to the elimination of the other major genetic diseases: 

"REG108.4 All stallions having 25 or more mares on their 2014 breeding report are required to have a genetic disease panel test on file with AQHA prior to the registration of their foals resulting from breeding’s occuring after January 1, 2014.
REG108.5 All stallions are required to have a genetic disease panel test on file with AQHA prior to the registration of their foals resulting from breeding’s occuring after January 1, 2015."

All quotes are from the on line 2014 AQHA Handbook and it's available at aqha.com.


----------



## rookie

Wow, thank you dreamcatcher I have never looked at the registry and its requirements. So, that you for positing that it is really interesting. That actually increases the amount of respect I have for the American Quarter Horse Association. The problem with impressive from my point of view was that he was so prolific and thus passed on his "bad genes" which some folks either don't regard as that bad or as acceptable risk. That said you are right the issue is that people don't do the genetic screening which is negligent.


----------



## stevenson

I think each/every breed has genetic problems, I think they should be on the papers and the papers indicated breedable or Non breedable. 
I mean every single breed.. QH , pasos, paints, TB, rocky mtn, Arabs, Appys, Drafts, all have
some sort of genetic disorder.


----------



## Allison Finch

I don't think any horse with even a hint of HYPP should be bred. Genetic diseases could be stamped out if it were not for the people who just HAVE to breed these horses.


----------



## Yogiwick

I was about to say,
It's the responsibility of the breeder to not only stand N/N horses but also to only breed to N/N horses.

There are many diseases that could be phased out relatively easily. (This is an issue with lots of types of animals not just horses!) It's any breeders responsibility to test and breed accordingly. Breeding for a symptomatic horse is irresponsible and unacceptable imo. I think breeding for non-symptomatic carriers is acceptable but should be limited (only the very best).

It's on the breeders to breed responsibly. There will always be people who won't but what extreme's do we have to go to "force" (by removing from the gene pool) them to breed responsibly?


----------



## Zexious

Dreamcatcher--Exactly. It is the nondisclosure part of it. I had no idea that HYPP was even a thing.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I learned about HYPP the hard way, by going to work as a show groom for a Paint/Pinto Halter trainer who had several horses who were fairly severely affected. I came from Arabs and TBs, never heard of Impressive or HYPP until I had the first horse seize on me. That was a real education. I was floored when I found out they still liked to breed for those N/H horses because of the bulk and definition.


----------



## Zexious

^Same. As I mentioned in my post, I found out about it when I went to SELL my mare. It wasn't even something I had heard of! Again, I know that I should have done my research, but I was 16 when I purchased her. I didn't even realize HYPP was such a thing x.x


----------



## Saddlebag

My N/H was owned by a vet and she said to not worry about his diet. Prior to his arrival HYPP was extensively researched with numerous emails going out to various feed companies. OK, now I knew what I would be dealing with. Minor changes were made to his diet to keep the potassium levels as low as possible. One day he and my two 20 somethings came back to the barn on the tear. The NH was out of breath and puffing, not the two oldies. The dietary changes did make a difference and by fall he was tearing around the place even tossing in a few sky high bucks. In all honesty I can't say if he was short winded because of his condition or from living in a box stall. Here he has about 15 acres with small hills that keep horses fit.


----------



## Regula

With HYPP, I agree that neither H/H nor N/H should be bred. However, I do think that there *might* be very specific reasons to breed a horse that is not 100% genetically sound. The aim of breeding should always be the betterment o the breed ultimately. Ideally, we want stallions and mares that produce better than themselves. The breed base of the QH is huge, so there is no real reason to breed HYPP positive animals. However, in a rare breed with a very small breed base, a stallion or mare might be so valuable genetically despite the defect, so that it's better to breed them than to lose the genetics altogether. Of course, it would have to be to a suitable and thoroughly tested partner... with a defect as simple genetically as HYPP, it would not be very hard to get rid of the defect in the followig generation or two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yogiwick

Regula, I agree with that statement for a lot of things but personally thoroughly disagree when it applies to HYPP since you are essentially reproducing an illness rather than a potential defect. Even a non symptomatic NH horse always has the potential to suddenly become symptomatic. IMO it's cruel to intentionally give an animal a disease that is life changing and can cause distress and even death.

People don't care about that they care about the muscles and the looks etc (side rant, much of those halter horses aren't good for anything aside from standing around and looking "pretty" they aren't using horses). If it was only symptomatic in homozygous form them I would agree with that statement but it's not. Also, if we had wanted it to disappear in a couple generations.. Impressive died in 1995 (according to google, don't beat me if I'm wrong).. and we still have people happily breeding HH horses. It's like the people who insist OLWS doesn't exist and the reason all their foals die can't possibly because of their irresponsible breeding practices and having their heads in the sand..


----------



## Zexious

^This. 

I agree that it is a bit selfish.


----------



## palogal

Nvrmd....misread your post.


----------



## NdAppy

H is dominant, but breeding an N/H to N/N gets you a 50% chance of N/H and 50% chance of N/N. H/H to N/N is 100% N/H. H/H to N/H is 50% chance of N/H and 50% chance of H/H.


----------



## GotaDunQH

HYPP...where to begin. I'm a diehard AQHA member and have been for decades, so I have to applaud AQHA for being the ONLY breed association to take a stand on it, a stand that started many years ago with denying H/H horses to be registered. SO the halter industry was forced to re-think their breeding practices. And HYPP positive, DOES...many times, come with more muscle. In HYPP positive horses, the muscles "fire" many times more than a non-HYPP horses due to the elevated potassium that leaks into the muscles. But because so many of the Impressive breds carry a lot of muscle anyway, adding some HYPP can accentuate the muscle load....so halter people sought it out. And because MOST attacks happen when the horse is "at rest"....you don't often see attacks happen when the horse is at work; actually exercise restriction is NOT what you do with HYPP positive horses, exercise is VERY important.

I've seen attacks that were scary where some just involved the skin rippling like fingers down the neck. Two horses I've had first hand dealings with died as a result of attacks. One of them was prone to "colic" when this horse was actually having attacks. The owner, a good friend of mine, refused to have him tested....said he was just colic prone. I knew otherwise because HYPP attacks can resemble colic). When she was in Florida, I was running the barn (my horse was there because I boarded at her place), he had an attack, got cast in his stall, was all busted up and I knew he was not going to recover from this one. The vet who was a very good friend of mine came out, we looked at each other and knew it was not good. 4 hours later, we had to put him down. 

Another point....HYPP is not exclusive to just QH's, as we all know due to outcrossings to APHA and ApHC. But how many unregistered crossbreds are out there with HYPP? Backyard breds etc. This is why registration papers are so important, yet people say papers don't matter. Well, I sure think they do....and I will not own a non--papered horse because I have a bloodline history of that horse.

Someone mentioned Viital Signs Are Good. Yep, she is an incredible WP show mare and broodmare, however she is N/H. She's mostly Zip bred, but has the two lines that goes Impressive through Mr Conclusion (n/H) and Impressive Mint (N/H). While as worthy as she is in her own right to BE a broodmare, I still have an issue with it because of the N/H. She does have some N//H babies, one of the most famous being Invest N Vital Signs, a gorgeous and talented 2005 stud, N/H and dead at the age of 5, he was found dead in his stall.


----------



## Saddlebag

By keeping dietary potassium levels at 1% these horses are usually fine. They may have a higher uptake of salt because of muscle tissue firing on a cellular level. It wasn't until horses began having episodes and because research takes years, thousands of horses were carrying the gene. Was a necropsy done on the stallion to prove his death was caused by an episode?


----------



## GotaDunQH

Saddlebag said:


> By keeping dietary potassium levels at 1% these horses are usually fine. They may have a higher uptake of salt because of muscle tissue firing on a cellular level. It wasn't until horses began having episodes and because research takes years, thousands of horses were carrying the gene. Was a necropsy done on the stallion to prove his death was caused by an episode?


I don't believe so, I'll have to check some old articles. But an attack can cause so many other medical problems. A friend of mine had an HYPP horse she used to show AQHA halter. My trainer started him under saddle after he stopped doing halter, got him more into riding weight then halter weight. All was going well until he started to have an attack in his stall, trainer did the Kayro syrup and the rest of the stuff that goes with it, put him in the round pen, where the horse dropped like a stone and died. We knew he had an attack, but the vet figured it was an anueryism that was the cause of death....brought on by an attack.


----------



## KigerQueen

I have an un papered mare BUT she is an older arab and if she had a genetic problem it would have been obvious by now. If I like (and can afford) a horse for trails, I'll get it papers or not, BUT if its a stock horse you bet it better be tested for these genetic issues! I wont EVER buy a stock breed without papers, too many genetic issues ( I don't breed so I would not care about something they COULD pass on, but something THEY had.)


----------



## doubleopi

KigerQueen said:


> I have an un papered mare BUT she is an older arab and if she had a genetic problem it would have been obvious by now.


As long as you're not breeding her...CA, LFS/CCDL, and SCID are all present in the Arabian population. They are recessive so are more like HERDA than HYPP.


----------



## KigerQueen

I would not breed an unregistered or untested mare. I would buy an unpapered healthy horse, but never breed it. There is enough unwanted horses out there I don't need to add to it.


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

*To all who posted regarding the muddied waters of the HYPP debacle*

To all who've taken the time to comment on the handling of HYPP:

Greetings! And, "Tryst" if I appeared to have come with a "holier than thou" attitude, I sincerely apologize. For over 35 years as a breeder, and DVM my goal has continued to be that of breeding for physically correct, genetically sound horses of quality, capable of competing successfully at the National and World Championship levels, or living a long, healthy life as someone's best friend. For those interested, my stallion has passed the 5 panel test, is HYPP N/N and also did very well at the National level, as a 5-X National Halter Champion & Reserve Champion. That, to me, dispels those who believe a horse must be N/H to show successfully at the highest levels.

Factual information about HYPP, as viewed by UC Davis, considered to be experts in this field, is below.

*------------------------------------------------------------------*

*ABOUT HYPP: Courtesy of UC Davis*
*HYPP is characterized by sporadic attacks of muscle tremors (shaking or trembling), weakness and/or collapse.

Attacks can also be accompanied by loud breathing noises resulting from paralysis of the muscles of the upper airway. Occasionally, sudden death can occur following a severe paralytic attack, presumably from heart failure or respiratory muscle paralysis.*

*Inheritance and Transmission of HYPP:*
*HYPP is inherited as an autosomal dominant trait, which means it can occur in both males and females and only one copy of the gene is required to produce the disease. The trait is inherited from generation to generation with equal frequency; it does not get "diluted" out or skip generations.*

*MYTHS ABOUT HYPP:*
*Some people have felt that the disease can be diluted out and not carried to distant generations. This is false because an affected horse has just as much chance to pass on the trait as the affected parent which passed the gene to him.
*
*Some people also believe the horse will "grow out of it." This is not true. For unknown reasons, attacks of HYPP tend to occur most often at the beginning of intense training and fitting for shows (age three to seven years old). It is important to realize that horses with HYPP are affected for life. It is possible that older horses do not experience the same conditioning stresses as young horses or owners have discovered the best management strategies for the older horses with HYPP.*

*Others also believe if a horse does not show any signs up to a certain age, it does not carry the trait. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Once again, horses with HYPP are affected for life. There was a stallion and a broodmare with HYPP who did not show signs of the disease until age eight and 15, and both horses only experienced 
one isolated attack.*
*------------------------------------------------------------------*

However, when discussing how best to stop HYPP, without doing damage to the very breeds this defective gene and the syndromes it causes affects, there are unavoidable issues to be considered, especially for the smaller breeds which out-crossed on AQHA mares and stallion for decades, while inheriting many of the same genetic problems now plaguing the AQHA during those decades, not the least of which is HYPP. 

Unlike the AQHA, especially when Paints are factored into it, most related, stock horse breeds lack the sheer numbers of horses the AQHA, let alone the combined AQHA/APHA register each year. And, there lies an extreme rub, when considering no longer allowing any N/H horses as eligible for breeding. 

Some relatively popular, family oriented breeds with smaller registries than the AQHA may not survive the immediate withdrawal of all N/H horses from being qualified for breeding. HYPP aside, there are many N/H mares who still have 
plenty to offer their breeds, from proven pedigrees of solid gold, to extensive show records earned at the highest level of competition. 

The mare's fifty-fifty chance of foaling an N/N baby when bred to N/N stallions should up the ante in favor of allowing some N/H horses to be used for breeding. No doubt, many will ask which horses would be allowed to breed, and how they would be chosen.

Although at first glance, most breeders may still find themselves firmly polarized on one side of this issue or the other, although the time has long since come when we need to join together to create a well thought out and enforced program to phase out HYPP, while not extincting any breeds affected by HYPP could be implemented. 

The goal should be to ultimately remove HYPP from all active breed gene pools, while keeping the number of foals registered for each breed still significant enough to keep these smaller breeds intact, as all affected breeds reset themselves in a post HYPP industry. For the smaller, yet popular breeds to rebound and maintain a reasonable number of foals registered each year, it be may necessary to continue allowing some N/H horses to be bred. Some may ask which N/H horses would be allowed to be bred, on how those decisions would be made. 

Statistically there is a 50/50 chance of an N/H mare having an N/N foal when bred to N/N stallions. These statistics were calculated using equations with mares said to have a 50/50 chance of producing an N/N foal, having been bred to N/N stallions, since an N/H mare can only produce an N/N foal when crossed with an N/N stallion.

People continue to argue that we should not breed any anything but N/N horses, and in a perfect world that would be the perfect solution. However, the world is far from perfect. If a breed such as the Appaloosa were limited to breeding N/N horses only, it would result in a significant loss in the number of foals born and registered each year, with the resulting foals not guaranteed to be of the current quality the Appaloosa has achieved.

In my opinion, as horsemen, just as it has become our duty to remove HYPP from all breeds through selective breeding, we are also responsible for preventing the demise of the smaller stock horse breeds due to 30 years of out-crossing on stallions who were carriers of the HYPP gene. 

Should more than 50% of the breeding stock become ineligible of breeding due to that many of the stallions and mares being positive, those breeds are facing the very real danger of fading away altogether, with the loss of the backbone of every breed-the actual breeders who provide each years foals, helping to set the direction breeds will head towards. Among the breeds who could face a significant lowering of the number of foals registered each year are the ApHC, PHBA, NABHA and other North American "color breeds," which were also heavily influenced by AQHA out-crossing. 

Also to be considered, is with the current economy not doing the Equine Industry any favors, breeders and enthusiasts of popular breeds known to have been out-crossed with AQHA mares and stallions, need to focus and stay on point with regard to breeding for N/N foals, even if allowing N/H mares to be bred to N/N stallions is necessary for the breed itself to continue to exist, at the level of quality each has attained, such as the Appaloosa breed has over the last 76 years. 

As most are aware, stallions typically produce more offspring in a year than a mare, who is usually limited to one foal per year. In the not too distant past, stallions were standing to filled books of 80+ mares per year-and many of the stallions were minimally N/H causing HYPP to take off like a wildfire-before we knew there was such a thing. 

This makes the importance of being sure the largest contributors to the gene pool, which are the stallions, are those who are HYPP N/N, especially if breeding N/H horses is determined to be required to continue for more time until larger number of N/N horses are registered. Regulations preventing any H/H or N/H stallion to be unsuitable breeding stock. N/H mares should be required to be bred to N/N stallions alone. Because H/H horses cannot produce an N/N foal, even if crossed with an N/N horse, there is no possible reason for them to be 
allowed to breed.

We strongly believe in gelding inferior stallions, genetic profiles aside, although more colts are kept stallions now than 
in prior times. If a colt is not N/N, its papers should be stamped as such, and I personally believe stallions who are not N/N should be prevented from being used as breeding stock, since they can produce more potentially HYPP positive 
offspring in their lifetime than most mares. These N/H stallions can still have a chance, with diligently managed diet and care designed for HYPP positive horses, to enjoy life as a excellent geldings. 

We must keep in mind, there is no guarantee that all N/N foals will be free of other negative characteristics, genetic flaws, physical unsoundness &/or extreme deviations from what is considered correct. Horses such as these when bred, will cause a regression in the quality of the horses from each affected breed, with these physical and other challenges obviously not desired.

Realistically, as most Breeders, and Breed Association Committees agree with, at this point we need to strongly consider and support allowing N/H mares to be bred to N/N stallions. The reason for this is the technical chance of obtaining an N/N horse, 50% of the time when N/N stallions are bred to N/H mares. Gaining N/N horses from crosses such as these should be considered as gaining highly sought HYPP N/N benefits for that breed's gene pool. 

Additionally, when the numbers of a breed such as the Appaloosa are relatively small, the chance taken when breeding N/N stallions to N/H mares may be needed to assure the breed will continue to exist.
While I personally believe those willing to take the chance of breeding N/N to N/H is admirable-if the ultimate goal is to obtain an N/N foal, I also firmly believe N/H mares & stallions should have that Genetic Test Results stamped on their registration papers.

The Appaloosa horse club had begun steps such as the following amendment to the Registration Rule-book-although as of yet the papers are only stamped that the horse has been tested-but do not have the results of the tests posted.
b. ApHC-eligible foals resulting from AQHA-registered stallions and mares born on or after January 1, 2007 and having HYPP status of NH or HH will be required to be HYPP tested at the same time they are parentage verified and to have their HYPP status designated on their ApHC Certificates of Registration. Further descendants of NH or HH ApHC-registered horses will also be required to be HYPP tested/Parentage Verified and have that status designated on their ApHC Certificates of Registration. ​The HYPP issue, in many ways, potentially affects the entire light horse Equine Industry in the North America, and especially the USA. It is time to put the health of our horses over the desire for trophies, ribbons, money and prizes and eliminate this disease before the possibility becomes beyond our ability to do so. 

We feel strongly that owners and breeders of affected horses should inform prospective breeders and buyers of the management constraints these horses have and the potential for future episodes of HYPP. 

Naturally there are those who may think my interest in HYPP is because my stallion is HYPP N/N. However, you may be interested to know that for many years I refused to own a Halter Stallion, until years of searching for what I hoped would be a modern halter stallion, able to pass the 5 panel genetic test, while most of all being HYPP N/N, found just the horse I'd hoped for. The Secret Pardon, aka "Diesel" filled the bill for me-and then some! However, many of your comments are spot on! Mare owners do not seem as concerned about HYPP as many in the Veterinary world feel they should be. We see this first hand when mare owners are questioned about HYPP and often reply by stating they do not consider a stallion's HYPP status, as much as what the horse has accomplished in the Show Arena, when searching for a stallion to breed their N/H mares to. Attached are photos of my HYPP N/N stallion, and an N/N yearling colt, who recently became the older brother to an HYPP N/N colored filly, foaled last week.

Also interesting to note, is that for our stallion to qualify for exporting frozen semen to other countries, such as Australia, he was required to undergo & pass a full battery of genetic tests, from the 5 panel test, which includes HYPP, to the graying gene. Any horse testing positive for any of these tests, including HYPP, or any other genetic defects revealed via the 5 panel test are not eligible for breeding in that country. Kudos to them for having a strong handle on something we, here in the USA, cannot seem to accomplish.

Again, my apologies if my frustration about the people who insist HYPP is a "dead" topic, when it is anything but. Trying to get people to understand the long-term affects already caused by the defective HYPP gene, and the continued breeding of large numbers of mares to horses who are N/H or H/H, may seem to some, as though I am less than congenial with a holier than thou attitude. That could not be further from the truth. However, remaining quiet about something I feel so strongly about is not the right action for me to take.

PLEASE... if you feel strongly about the health of the horses, no matter what breed you have, post to your friends and write to your registries and tell them your feelings and concerns on this topic! 

*One person can accomplish a little, but together many can accomplish almost ANYTHING! *


----------



## Tarpan

I feel that all breeds carrying HYPP should be tested, and horses that test H/H or N/H should not be registrable by their breed associations unless they are permanently sterilized (mares too!). If they aren't sterilized they aren't registered and can't be shown, and if they're sterilized they can be shown but can't be bred.


----------



## Saddlebag

This is becoming a dying issue. AQHA is not registering double positives, therefore there will be no new babies after 97 that are. Impressives genetic material took off like a forest fire and it was years before research was able to point the finger. Many years have passed and many fine stallions have emerged who are not carrying Impressive lines and breeders are seeking these horses out. Not because they aren't carrying Impressive but because they stand on their own merits. The title of the thread says Complacency. You have to have knowledge of something in order to be complacent.


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

*The knowledge I refer to are the many horsemen who have known about HYPP, and how its transmitted, while also knowing, as many halter showman do, that horses who are HYPP N/H tend to carry a heavier muscle type-another known effect of HYPP-and these are the horses who continue to win World & National Championship Titles, not only in the aged classes, but from weanlings on up. As long as trainers win, they do not care whether the horse is N/H or N/N/. That is a fact, and that is what is known-hence the use of the word complacency.
I disagree that HYPP is a dying issue, as evidenced by the majority of stallions who are N/H. And N/H mare bred to an N/H stallion can produce an H/H foal which means until the HYPP mutation is removed altogether it is far from a dead issue. *


----------



## Saddlebag

If you were to look at my NH gelding you'd think he was a let down TB, not even remotely bred back to Impressive. The heavily muscled horse is a trend that is slowly phasing out as it's now the "athletic" looking horse that is being sought out for the show ring. I remember when a horse with your app's confo could do well in a pleasure class and them the trend changed to long lanky TB types.


----------



## Sweetwater Farms

*Reply to Saddlebag all others regarding HYPP*



Saddlebag said:


> If you were to look at my NH gelding you'd think he was a let down TB, not even remotely bred back to Impressive. The heavily muscled horse is a trend that is slowly phasing out as it's now the "athletic" looking horse that is being sought out for the show ring. I remember when a horse with your app's confo could do well in a pleasure class and them the trend changed to long lanky TB types.


Yesterday I answered the question you posed to me about whether the term I used when originally posting this to Horse Forum was relative since in your opinion you believe HYPP is a dying issue. 
The trends changed when the types of horse became more suited to staying sound in classes that crossed lines, such as a halter horse being shown over fences, or a dressage horse being let loose in the reins, guiding without any contact with the mouth, while being expected to complete a 60' sliding stop from a gallop. As we humans have pressed almost all QH related breeds into adding more events, to stay competitive those who wanted to stay on the top bred for horses more suited for individual events. It was the domination of trainers who call themselves "specialists" who caused the changes we see today, as opposed to breeds prior to the 1970's staying unchanged. 
Creating "designer horses" such as many have with the halter horses, through the use of the painful HYPP genetic mutation is inhumane-and not worth the end result which is to have genetically faulty horses continuing to win the most prestigious halter classes in existence today, which as many may recall were the classes most based their choices of which stallions to breed their mares on. That is now wrong on so many levels, it boggles the mind.


----------

