# Critique this Curly colt



## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

Looking for critique of this 2 year old Curly stud colt. He is from the Warrior line. I want an honest critique of him, but please no extra comments not pertaining to him. Thank you very much.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

A view from the back.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Think he'd make a nice gelding. Not impressed with his conformation.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I'd say his worse fault is his heck/shoulder attachment. He looks like he could be a bit back at the knee as well. I'd like to see a stronger, more pronounced shoulder as well.

But he has great bone. Nice low set hocks. Backend could be bigger, Nice length of back.

To be honest, this is how the Warrior lines are built. They aren't perfect, but their hard-working, honest, strong and extremely hardy horses. And they are as forgiving and gentle as all get out. Mine is very, very similar to him. (mine has Bad Warrior on sire and dam side)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

looks like a very sturdy, useable horse.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

Thank you to those who critiqued him. Once again when I am looking for critique I don't want to hear that they'd make a good gelding. I want to hear why they would make a good gelding. A lack of impression doesn't make him a gelding prospect. A conformational fault does. But I am appreciative of the honesty at the very least. 

I have talked to the owner quite a bit and this colt is just a dear. Even got to see him move and he has some very easy gaits, lots of stamina, and all around a great mind. He definitely is Warrior bred! I would say the strongest point in my broodmares are their clean attachment of neck. He may or may not pass it on, it is hard to say. But a horse with a good work ethic is worth their weight in gold.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK...why he should of been gelded a year ago-
Short hammer head (not too ugly though). make sure you check his teeth.

Maybe course through the throatlatch but it may be the look of the fur throwing me off 

Really lousy neck/shoulder attachment. Don't love the withers but like the head doesn't effect function much.

Back at the knee with straight/short pasterns.

Nice short back leading to poor/weak hind end overall though angles look nice. Back legs seem ok, slightly sickle hocked and same pasterns (but better here).

He seems strong and sturdy and is cute. Decent and usable. List of issues and the neck and leg are pretty big for breeding material. Most won't effect usability and he'd be versatile and low levels but probably not good at anything and I think any breeding horse must be good (if not great) at something. So lack of anything special, very mediocre with two pretty big faults (the legs will effect soundness though the chest obv won't).. I was just waiting to see what others said, not blow you off sorry.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He is.. just a horse.. and I agree 100% with what Yogiwick said. 

That said, and since it seems you are drawn to this breed, could you start another thread and show us what a top line Curly stallion looks like (crtique-able photo). You mention Warrior. Got photos? What are his accomplishments? 

If you post what the best look like, it would be easier to say something about the colts you show us. 

That said, good conformation is good conformation. This colt lacks that.. with his very poor shoulder (steep, low almost flat humerus and poor reat end with a round croup and a low tail set.. all that Yogiwick said).


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elana, I am flattered that you agree with me . Just trying to be thorough and look him over one part at a time.

Agree he's "just a horse". If you were looking for a backyard horse to fool around with definitely, if you are looking for a breeding animal, definitely not! OP if you are looking to breed I would suggest doing some research and learning to pick them apart yourself. As I'm sure you agree breeding is about knowing strengths and faults and how best to combine them to end up with the ideal animal with the goal always being the illusive "perfect" and meeting breed standards 100%. If a breeder doesn't know if their horses have good conformation or not.. Temperament IS important, but ultimately it's conformation that makes the horse. If you aren't looking to breed then forgive me, I got that impression.

I'm not saying to pass on this horse, I'm saying to run the other way if you are looking for a breeding animal and if you are looking for a nice low level all arounder go for it (preferably geld first ).


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

I do enjoy studying horses in my spare time to look at their strengths and weaknesses. But I do get to the point where I have looked at a picture so many times that there is nothing else I can see! :? But with my own stock I work them, I watch them move, my hands are on them, and I see what they can do for the breed. In that way it is much easier to see what their strengths and weaknesses are, but then again it can present a challenge in just as many ways. I am glad to have this resource not to rely on entirely but to open my eyes to potential flaws. Thank you both very much for your critique.

Curlies are sort of a different ball game than other breeds where you have literally thousands to pick from. The breed itself is only a few thousand horses. I will share a few Curly stallions with you all that are considered fairly successful horses and have many foals on the ground.

First is Sandman's Magic, from The Yellow Hornet lines. He is a very big bodied horse and has done well for himself in the dressage ring. Produced year after year of wonderful foal crops. His progeny have been successful, as well.

Second stallion is Angel's Spirit. I know he was worked in harness a bit but other than that was not shown or promoted. His owner has a large broodmare band and he has proven himself a lot in his foals. I have met him and he is a gentle stallion. His size is very impressive, even though I don't think he is over 15.2 he just seems colossal.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

If those two stallions are the best the breed has to offer then I will offer this.

It seems the breed tends toward hounded croups and light gaskins. High hocks are also fairly normal. They look substantive but drafty through the shoulder with not a lot of shoulder definition. These both have short backs and better shoulders, but with a higher neck set than the examples you have shown us. The higher neck set is important to movement in front. Note that the point of shoulder is higher in both these than in the colt. The dun is better in that regard than the paint. In fact, the dun is better all the way around I think except for what appears to be a bit sickle hocked. 

The breed is quite drafty and that should be remembered. I will also note that the Dun may be a bit back at the knee and he certainly is tied in at the knee. 

If you are going for this breed and want a stud I would suggest you look at these stallions and compare them to what you are looking at. If what you are looking at is not at least as good as these, then stop right there. 

You would be far better served to get a really top line MARE and breed to one of these (or another as good that offsets your mares faults) or save up the money you would need to get the right stallion worthy of proving in the ring and campaigning. 

Breeding horses takes way too much time and way too much effort to get anything but the very best. Far better to wait and save your money for buying the best than to try to breed the mediocre out of a horse (any horse) you have just because you can. 

JMO.


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## craftyerin (May 20, 2014)

Elana, I just bought a stud by the dun, Sandman's magic. He's six and off to the trainers and hopefully a show career before we decide if we want to geld him. I'm interested what you think compared to these others. He's really fat in this but it's what I have.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I will add craftyerin- from your other thread the horse pictured is only 1/4 Curly? Is that correct? I remember it's not a purebred and doesn't seem quite right to post him without that disclaimer.

OP, I understand the challenges of a small gene pool. However part of that challenge is not settling for mediocre. You may have to make compromises, but that's not the same thing. Keep in mind there are breeds with far fewer studs than yours that manage. There are also breeds that allow outside breeding due to the lack of a gene pool. However, your goals as a breeder should never be changing, you always want to better the breed. You've picked a challenge with your breed of choice and wanting a stallion from that breed but I would go about it the same way as a stallion of any other breed with maybe just _slightly_ more compromise and only a compromise you can work with (eg your mares do well in that regard, or lack of a show record (do give him one yourself)).


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

I understand that the breed is drafty and that changes the angle expectations a bit but man.... I hate to say it but I'm a little sad that those two studs are top of the breed. I agree with the dun being tied in at the knee and I also hate the knees on the paint. Maybe the hair is distorting them? Either way, I have little to add to everyone else's assessment of the stud in question. Nice, useable horse but not one to better the breed.


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## craftyerin (May 20, 2014)

He is half curly. Registered with the CSI and ICHO. 

I'm still learning about the breed but there are several curly horse registries. Being such a rare breed there are some folks that are working to improve the breed through selectively breeding with other breeds.


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

Crafty, I actually like your boy, particularly compared to the others pictured here. I love his hip. He seems maybe a tad tied in at the knee like his dad (anyone else?) but his legs are a lot cleaner than the paint. He's a little sickle hocked but I like his back, neck tie in and whithers a lot. He also has a rather cute head and a much nicer throat latch than others pictured. Overall I think HES a better example than those other two stallions, but maybe I'm biased. Either way he's incredibly cute and I want to snuggle him


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wonder if the gene that creates the "hair", rather than "fur" has some negative points associated with it. you know, some genes for certain traits come connected to others (I don't know the correct terms for this). for example, when humans started to breed dogs and they bred for docility, dogs took on rounder and more droopy ears , such as hound dogs have. that's becuase the gene for that just happens to be associated with the gene for docility.

even fur fox breeders, who started breeding for docility, to make the foxes easier to deal with as stock, found their foxes getter rounder and rounder ears.

so, as peole breed for the curly aspect, could there be things like back at the knee or weak gaskins that are being actually bred in concurrently?


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## southernbound (May 17, 2014)

That's a good point tiny. The genetic term you're thinking of is recombination. Some genes tend to travel together because they sit so closely on the allele that "snipping" them apart would be like trying to cut a string with the knots too close. It can be done but you risk the knot (or the dna) coming apart so nature just doesn't. It's totally possible some of these things go with the curly hair. 

Off topic, but I LOVED that fox study. Did you see the study where researches in Siberia took it a step further? They started breeding foxes FOR docile natures and within 60 generations had completely domesticated foxes that behaved like dogs complete with spots, barking, tail wagging, focus on subtle human expressions etc. 

With that said the genetics behind domestication are thought to have more to do with epi genetics than with recombination but still.......

Sorry.....

Hopeless genetics nerd. Back into the shadows I go.....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I did see that TV special!! that was fascinating. my husband is a genetics and evolution nerd. don't hide in the shadows. it's ok, we accept nerds here.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I saw something about that too (the foxes)! Very cool!!

I don't feel like it would apply here, but who knows.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Here is my Curly Jasper. His grandsire is Bad Warrior on his sire's side. And on his dam's side, Bad Warrior is his Great-Grandsire. Jasper's sire and dam came directly from the great Ernie Hammrich. (He helped to save this breed from extinction)

This right here is the "old style" Curly. Because there were not many Curlies left after they were run off cliffs, to preserve the breed, breeders started crossing them with your Foundation QH's. This is what the "Bad Warrior" line is.

Bad Warrior was IMO, the most influential sire on the Curly breed. In just the past 2 decades, Curlies have become more diverse. There are Curly Minis, Ponies, Horses, "WB's" and Drafts. Are all of them "pure"? No, because they required out-breeding in order to produce the different types of horses.

That is why the "Bad Warrior" line is sought after by many breeders. Because Bad Warrior is the "King" of the Curly breed. Or the Poco Bueno, or the Leo. 

The Curly is by far the most forgiving breed of horse that I have EVER worked with. Of course, I work with the Warrior lines. They are like a giant Golden Retriever or Labrador. They are calm and gentle. They THINK things through before doing it. 

Are they ever going to win in open halter classes next to an Arabian or QH? Highly unlikely. They just are "pretty pretty" horses...They are WORKING horses. (Similar to a Foundation Appaloosa) They were bred to handle rough winters (-40*F) day after day after day. They were bred to work all day long. Bred to stay sound and be hardy, healthy horses.

It's a small gene pool to work with, unfortunately. And the "old" lines are getting harder to come by.

I'm not saying they aren't "quality" horses...Because they are. But they are far from perfect conformation wise. Yet they are still hard working, USING horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just a small aside here, . . . wish I could get me some of that fur, for my needle felting projects!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> just a small aside here, . . . wish I could get me some of that fur, for my needle felting projects!


Seriously, in the spring time, I will send you a horse in fur. LoL. He sheds in clumps and you can just pull it out. So...if your serious, I am more then willing to send it to you around May when he sheds.


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## craftyerin (May 20, 2014)

Tiny, I will send you some too this year!








That wasn't even a third of it!

My mare is Bad Warrior as well. (This is not long after we got her, we are working on building her topline, it looks much better and she had an abscess in this picture.)









PS Sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread! :-(


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I like his hip , and I am not sure if I am in total agreements with the assessment of his legs.
he is a bit upright in the front legs, not sure if I agree with tied in at the knees, it looks like it, but then again , he changes color right there. also I would like to see him standing with both hind feet under his butt, not extended, from the side. He does have the drafty neck and shoulder, but so do most curlys that I have seen photos of. Not many in my area.. way to hot..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I appreciate a good usable horse. I'm very glad they haven't gone the way of so many halter horses.
Form follows function- but there should be some sort of guidelines to that.

The horse should be usable yes but it should also follow breed guidelines and HAVE GOOD CONFORMATION.

You focus just on usable you will end up with unusable. There always needs to be a balance. And honestly, what is usable anyways? What have these horses excelled at? Doesn't need to be halter and I'm glad it's not. The perfect conformation for a draft won't be the same as a Hackney nor a QH. Usable should mean more than "looks like it" or "stays sound when ridden regularly". The horse must excel at something. If he's an excellent worth his weight and gold ranch horse *with* good conformation then by all means breed him! It doesn't need to be some fancy show record but there needs to be something.

So yes, I could look at a good draft horse and think "ick" but if it does what it's meant to do then it's good even if it doesn't do what _I _(or whoever) thinks it should do. But there needs to be some purpose. The draft horse is bred to pull. A BC is bred to..be usable? All 3 of my horses are usable all in VERY different ways. Most horses are usable, and many excel at being usable. Sounds like we need to define "usable".


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I guess I should have been a little more detailed. Back in the day they were used as Ranch horses. Much like the Foundation QH's. Except in winter time, all the horses were turned out to fend for themselves and come spring, Curlies were the only ones that survived the horrible weather conditions. The "normal" horses had died because they couldn't withstand the cold.

But since then, they have expanded into many different "types" of Curlies, and they can go in any direction. Many are excelling in Dressage. I'd say the majority of Curlies are kids/youth horses and excellent trail mounts.

My 3 year old nieces rides Jasper. He is excellent with her, just as gentle and sweet as can be. That's all I want and need him for.

Curlies are not my favorite breed, but they are cool in their own way. Jasper was my first horse and we've had him for going on 15 years now.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Home - American Bashkir Curly Horse Registry

-seems nice too:
http://www.abcregistry.org/#/stallionatstud4/4573012142

A lot of mares I'm seeing are better than the stallions I'm seeing lol.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

To add to the above...several geldings as well.. :/


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Tiny, I'll send you all the curly hair you want in the spring. Even though my girl is only 11 hands I wind up with daily piles that look like somebody shaved a draft.

I'm not liking the colts neck and shoulder either though he is at an age where he could be just awkward.









This is an old picture of my mare. She's an unknown but came out of an auction in Missouri at just the right time to be one of the McKay ponies. At one time we had it narrowed down to her being one of 4 mares. Now she's 39 and it just doesn't matter who she was born as. But...see her knees? It seems to be a weak point in the breed. I've noticed more than a few with funky knees. It was never a soundness issue with her until she reached advanced old age. Just been this last year that her knees seem a little stiff but she will still out maneuver much younger horses.

If you are looking for a stallion prospect I think I'd pass on this one for now. Kinda vague but he just isn't attractive. At two there should of been a few comments about cute or handsome. I think you can find better.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Cant you get a "foundation" curly from the BLM?


















On occasion the BLM will have some online. maybe you could contact them and see if any holding phacility has a curly?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

She's looking for a stallion prospect and nothing from the BLM should be considered for a breeding prospect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

why is that? horses with bad confo dont live long. Also where do you think A LOT of curlies come from? the original group of horses was released when the ranch owner died (or something along those lines). nothing is heartier than a mustang. Been around quite a few. Amazing horses that are SOUND until the day they die. I know one with spanish and curlie lines. His legs are perfect and THICK. Looks what a stock horse should and he is in his late 20s.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

When breeding you should choose animals that will breed true to type, and with a Mustang you just don't know if that's going to happen. You don't know the breeding, and generally mustangs do not have the best conformation. Some do, yes. But many do not. Not to mention any genetic diseases or shortcomings that may be lurking, it's just not a good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think that is an interesting idea. If the curly coat is the result of a recessive gene than in theory a stallion would throw at least one copy of that recessive gene and could very well throw true to type. 

I also somewhat disagree with not knowing what genetic monsters are hiding in a unknown mustang. The fact is that a lot of those horses are as well crossed as many purebreds if not more so. They also have the "bonus" of mother nature selecting for traits. If a stallion throws life threatening conditions than his progeny don't survive. He may live but he is a genetic dead end. 

The bigger issue is that the BLM may not want to sell a stallion. They are in the business of placing "unwanted" horses and may not want to create more horses.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I believe it is a dominant gene. There are mentions of "this stallion seems to be homozygous!" which obviously if it were recessive isn't something that would be a question.

Good point on the BLM not wanting to sell a stallion.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

All Curlies did originate from the mustang herds, and there are still secluded areas where Mustangs are exclusively curly haired with of course the 'straight curly' horses that crop up. Why not get a Curly Mustang stallion? First of all, I do not have the facility to house a mustang, much less a mustang stallion. There have been breeders even more recently (within the last 20 years, as opposed to the Dameles whose history with Curlies ventures into the 1930s) that incorporate wild stock into their herd. I would prefer a domesticated stallion. The colt in the OP is domestic and friendly, but unhandled and in my opinion untainted by poor handling techniques. He has respect for people, which is my biggest concern for any young stud colt, and I will be able to teach him everything.

I have decided to go ahead and buy this colt. When I bring him home in spring he will be started with his ground work and moved into under saddle work. I do also hope to drive him, and will use him for work in the field. He will have a very diverse career and if he proves good natured and trainable then he will definitely remain a stallion and I will breed him to my mares. The Bad Warrior bloodline is one I certainly admire, and I do not have any of that blood in my current herd. But if he does not turn out to produce what I like then he will be gelded and still have lots of potential in his riding/driving career.

Thank you all very much for your critique of him. I have talked to other Curly breeders and I have always come to the same conclusion. If he is not a good producing stallion, he will be a wonderful gelding. But I will never know what he produces without breeding him.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

the blm will adopt out foals though, not always gelded. OP maybe in the future you could get a filly from the blm if she is to your standards. I liked the colt, but i did see what others were saying. As for his head and neck i see a curly, its part of the breed. Its like saying you dont like the neck and dished arab face on an arab, it's kinda their thing XD!


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## chynnarose (Nov 16, 2014)

Short backed and short necked, short and compact in general. But solid looking animal


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## FreeNFoxy (Jan 7, 2010)

I like this big guy that's standing out in Nevada, as far as Curly's go. 
WW Peter Lakota.


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## Frieda (May 17, 2014)

The BLM just sold a few Curly studs. It's the first time in a long while that I've seen them adopt out adults as studs. Here's one:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Curly-stallion-7710/872011912843222


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## rbaker0345 (Nov 2, 2014)

I can't say that I know much about curlies but after looking at all of the pictures and reading all of the history. I would say that if you're looking for a stud, you want a sturdy, working horse with little leeway for weakness or breaking down. Your studcolt is a little high at the withers, but he's 2 so that's probably just a growing thing. Someone mentioned that his croup is a bit steeply angled, but isn't this a desirable trait in a draft-type horse? He looks well balanced. I'd like to see a better angle in his hoof, especially his hind, but that's just a trimming issue. I don't find his head or throatlatch particularly attractive, but I'm an Arab person so I'm used to a different type completely. I think that if he complements your mares and the angle of his croup is acceptable for the breed then he seems like a good stud prospect, maybe keep him at stud until you find a better stud. If the gene pool is that small, you can't be too picayune. I breed Salmon Faverolles chickens and the gene pool with those guys is so small, you do what you can with what you've got and acquire better animals as you go along.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

It was funny that right after someone posted about getting a mustang stud the BLM opened their adoptions for the stallions that were rounded up. The stallion that is posted here is actually going to be bred to both of this colt's full sisters which will be incredibly exciting to see what they produce. But I still don't have the place to house a mustang stallion nor the interest to. This colt hasn't been handled a whole lot, but he is very intuitive. The owner is allergic to him so doesn't work with him a lot. I don't know if he's ever had his feet trimmed, which if he isn't halter broke he probably hasn't thus the poor condition of his hooves.

My main problem with excessive inbreeding is the problems it can open up. I have just found The Yellow Hornet line has had instances of OCD and I partially accredit that to when Joe Mead bred YH sons to their dams to get more color and in the breed as well as gait. I own two YH horses that have half-siblings as parents. Both have Appy color and do have great personalities, but one who was a stud all his life has bad arthritis due to his OCD. I am gelding him so he will not pass this on any more than he already has.

I also breed several varieties of chickens, but more common ones than Faverolles, and I do understand sometimes you need to inbreed. But with horses you don't lose the type as quickly as you can with chickens from outcrossing.


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## rbaker0345 (Nov 2, 2014)

If I were in your situation, this being a young boy, still growing but with a good personality and the kind of conformation traits that you're looking for, I would do a test breeding. I mean, he's not a train wreck and you said you've got good, unrelated mares. Breed him once and see what you come out with, you know its going to be at least as good as its parents (in most cases).


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## Frieda (May 17, 2014)

More Curly horses available through the BLM:
https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/whip/index.html?curly


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Homozygous curly bay dun stallion - Curly Horses for Sale

Chocolate Creme Stud Colt ~ Full ABCR - Curly Horses for Sale


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Based on the other comments I thought he would be fugly. So I was pleasantly surprised when his pictures came up. I really like his short back and substantial bone. Not much about him I don't like, really. Of course I am not a breeder. But as a using horse, I would be thrilled to have a horse like him. ​


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

I have some new pics of my darling today. Hopefully people can offer some more critique of him. He is really coming into himself. The first picture is of him younger, and the second is of him today. But do keep in mind that his hair is outrageously plush and curly, so not every square inch of him will be honest. :lol:


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