# When ground work doesn't translate to undersaddle



## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

I will try to keep this relatively vague in an attempt to be respectful to the people who were involved...

My feeling is that if your horse is a polite and respectful animal on the ground, then your work and the respect you've obtained should translate properly under saddle. 

So today i went to spend some time with friends at another barn. This lady offered her horse to me for the day. She's been through some "stuff" and struggles with her confidence and her trust in her horse. 
He didn't concern me in the least. He was rude and there were things that, were he my horse, i would address them IMMEDIATELY. But i worked him on the ground before i got in the saddle, and he was decent to ride around the property and in the arena. 

The trouble happens when the owner decides that she wants to get on. She was so happy with how he was with me, that she thought (after 2 months of not riding) that she would be able to get on and go. That lasted about 4 seconds. She mounted from the block, he wheeled around, and bolted for his stall. She had to jump off to avoid being decapitated by the stall roofing!! 

So here's my question: 
This horse in particular was trained in a specific form of NH and has been since birth. However, my feeling is that although he's been very well ground trained, he was never properly under saddle trained. But wouldn't you suppose that a horse that has a solid foundation of ground training, should be much more polite and respectful under saddle as well?! I'm at a loss here.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hmm, I would have someone experienced (and with a good seat) on the horse and someone giving that person pony rides. 

I would continue to do this until the horse felt comfortable. Keeping sessions short and keeping bareback so the rider can bail asap.

Then when the horse could do that, I'd put a saddle on and do the same thing. Then I'd try lunging the person on the horse. 

Do you see where this is going? Start at the basics. Pony rides, just as you would for a horse that has never had a person on its back. Then you slowly take away the "crutch" of a person leading the horse so he progresses to listen and be comfortable with someone on his back.

Be careful. If you do lunge, make sure the horse can handle this before you put a person ontop.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

my struggle is that i don't want to be involved with this. She has asked that i come out and ride him... i believe in some kind of an attempt to get him trained better under saddle. However, i'm not a trainer. Nor do i want to be. She's had this horse since he was foaled, and now he's something around 10 years old. 
To me, this shouldn't be an issue. Why the heck is this horse still green?? How can you possibly put that much work in to your ground work, but do NOTHING with your under saddle work... so much so that the horse is literally dangerous under saddle! I just can't wrap my mind around it.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah I don't think you should be involved either. She needs a trainer.

You could get seriously hurt, this is definitely not something for amateurs (like me) or even experiences horsemen. It's too dangerous and a lot can go wrong.

Tell her to phone a trainer, pay the money to get it done right.. so she can enjoy her horse. It's just not worth hurting yourself to save some bucks :/

Oxer I have nooo clue, my horse is still green but that's cause he didn't know jack squat on the ground OR saddle :rofl: but yeah.. maybe she spent too long on groundwork and now the horse can get away with being a pest under saddle. It happens, you know horses :wink:


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

The reason a horse can be very responsive to cues on the ground, but completely "ignorant" when ridden is because the cues we use for ground work are mostly not the cues we use when we ride the horse. For example, when we want a horse to move forward when we lead it, we apply pressure on their poll from a halter and then they move forward we release the pressure and its the release that rewards the horse for moving forward. In contrast, when we want the horse to move forward under saddle we apply pressure on its sides with our heels and when it moves forward we release the pressure on its sides to reward it for making the correct response. The poll and the sides are two separate areas of the horse's body and we have to train the responses to pressure on these areas individually. The horse can't generalise between a pressure on its poll meaning walk forward and pressure on its sides meaning the same thing without being taught to respond that way. 

When starting horses I often teach them to walk forward from a whip tap on their sides in the same place as I will put my heels once they are ridden. Even though this makes the process of them learning to move forward from heel pressure a bit quicker, they are usually still confused the first few times they feel my heels on their sides, until they learn that moving forward is what makes my heels go away.

Good ground work is essential to ensure the horse is safe to handle and has practiced responding to pressure cues in order to obtain the reward of pressure release. This does enhance their learning under saddle, however the specific responses we want from cues we deliver when we ride them have to be trained one by one irrespective of the training method or approach that we follow.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

I also wonder how much of the ground manners is respect and how much is being missed. If the horse was fine with you obviously the issue is the owner.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think ground driving would be beneficial but I still stand by saying she needs to pay to get this fixed.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horses are very psychic at reading peoples minds! 
You had no worries or fears of riding this horse - he sensed it and went well. The owner has worries and he knows he can take advantage of this and behaves as he does.

Owner needs lessons on how to deal with the matter.

I am all for training in a 'nice' way but there are times when a horse needs to know that there are methods of making him comply with what is wanted.

Many times I have been asked to help a rider with similar problems. I get on the horse and act like a total novice. I also force my self to be tense and think worried. The big difference is that I am ready for him to take advantage and then I will respond with a hard correction. Once the horse is going I will ride the same way as I started giving him the chance to play up again. 
This helps the owner (along with lessons) as the horse is never sure if the rider is going to correct hard for misbehaviour or get away with it.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

great responses everyone! 

I worry about a trainer coming in from the outside and the owner shutting down to any of the ideas that the trainer might have. This horse is at a very critical point where someone needs to correct the behavior in a much more forceful, and not so nice way! This is sometimes too much for people to handle. I worry that this person has anthropomorphized her horse so much as her little friend, that if someone took a whip to that horse, she'd lose it. 

I told her very seriously and very clearly that, were this my horse he would NOT be allowed to do this, or that. She just nervously laughed and agreed with me. 
By the end of the whole thing i was giving her the "don't be a hero" speech, and i don't think she appreciated it. haha! 

You know what i really think too... i believe that the method of "ground training" that was implemented here was little more than trick training. This horse realized if he backs up, turns, comes forward, yeidls, blah blah blah... then he gets a treat. To me, that's trick training.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with Sky, this woman needs a trainer. However, I suspect that she'll never get along with this horse because she's scared of him and she'll always be scared of him. She likely won't be able to gain enough confidence to handle him the way that he needs to be handled.

What I think, she has a decently trained horse that has figured her out completely and knows what he needs to do to her to get out of work.

What solidifies that opinion, in my mind, is the fact that he went well for you.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

The horse needs the experience of being ridden. You can do a lot of handling on the ground, but if it doesn't relate to under saddle it won't do much good for getting the horse broke to ride. 

Btw I love how you say "a specific form of NH and has been since birth". I bet I can guess lol.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I think the horse was demonstrating what he was taught. You groundworked him, and rode him confidently, and he was good for you. His owner obviously doesn't groundwork him (you mentioned he was rude), lacks confidence and trust in the horse, got on him, and he demonstrated what he has learned he can do with his owner on his back.

Horses learn from consistent responses and are smart enough to tailor their responses to people/situations.


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## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

DancingArabian said:


> I think the horse was demonstrating what he was taught. You groundworked him, and rode him confidently, and he was good for you. His owner obviously doesn't groundwork him (you mentioned he was rude), lacks confidence and trust in the horse, got on him, and he demonstrated what he has learned he can do with his owner on his back.
> 
> Horses learn from consistent responses and are smart enough to tailor their responses to people/situations.


I agree! This doesn't sound like a "groundwork issue" at all - just an owner who doesn't have the confidence (and/or skills?) to properly handle her horse.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Daisy25 said:


> I agree! This doesn't sound like a "groundwork issue" at all - just an owner who doesn't have the confidence (and/or skills?) to properly handle her horse.


If she doesn't establish her role as herd leader, and lacks confidence too, she's never going to be able to do anything with him and he may turn more dangerous.

Hence the reason I think Oxer should not be involved. What if he did that to her too, thinking she was the owner? Eh?

A trainer needs to be brought in, one that knows how to deal with blind bolting (or whatever he was doing) and I agree the owner either needs to gain some confidence or maybe think about a different horse (or lessons/leasing if she really lacks in the confidence department.)

I'm proof that you can gain confidence from being terrified of the horse you have. It's possible, just takes a lot of patience and time spent out of the comfort zone and a good riding instructor. 

If she wants to overcome this, there has to be money involved. To pay, at least, a trainer. And at best, both a trainer AND riding instructor.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I agree with smrobs and Daisy. This horse has her number and will just repeat the bad behavior when she gets back on. She can do groundwork until the cows come home and he will still dump her at will. Other more confident riders will not have any trouble with her -- I'll bet.

This horse needs a job and a more confident rider and she needs and old 'packer' like the horse I put in the' horses for sale' section. She needs to find one like that is near her and then she needs to get some lessons in horse handling and riding -- not useless equitation lessons.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cherie said:


> and then she needs to get some lessons in horse handling and riding -- not useless equitation lessons.


Was this in response to what I suggested? A good riding instructor will not teach someone "useless equitation lessons" they will teach a rider how to stay on, push through, and come out with more confidence. And if they're REALLY good, they mix in ground work and horse handling. 

Again, nothing useless about that.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

From the sound of your story, this lady opted to ride right after you had. I'm wondering, since we don't know the horse's history, if he figured he's entitled to go back to the barn when you dismounted. As so often happens, when a horse has been ridden he gets to return to his stall without another rider mounting. One horse I had would totally shut down if I'd ridden him even for a few minutes then allowed another rider on him. In his mind he was done when I dismounted.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Nope! Not in response to anything you said. It was in response to all of the people I get, some that have had years of riding lessons, and they are clueless as to what to do when they want to go south and dobbin wants to go north. So many instructors teach 'equitation' and 'form' on an old lesson horse that take voice commands from the instructor but they never teach how to handle a horse that does not necessarily want to do what its rider wants or go where its riders wants it to go. 

I see riders all of the time that sit up there with perfect form until the horse runs off to the gate and they scream or jump off or do absolutely nothing, maybe futilely pull straight back on both reins screaming "Whoa!".

So, don't take it personal. Sure wasn't meant that way.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Nope! Not in response to anything you said. It was in response to all of the people I get, some that have had years of riding lessons, and they are clueless as to what to do when they want to go south and dobbin wants to go north. So many instructors teach 'equitation' and 'form' on an old lesson horse that take voice commands from the instructor but they never teach how to handle a horse that does not necessarily want to do what its rider wants or go where its riders wants it to go.
> 
> I see riders all of the time that sit up there with perfect form until the horse runs off to the gate and they scream or jump off or do absolutely nothing, maybe futilely pull straight back on both reins screaming "Whoa!".
> 
> So, don't take it personal. Sure wasn't meant that way.


Wasn't taking it personally  Just wanted to make sure of what you thought. But I agree.. dead broke is nice but one of these days even that dead broke horse will give you trouble and you won't have a clue what to do unless you've been taught to deal with these problems. 

I used to be one of those "sit there and do nothing" because of all of the "lessons" of riding which despite taking lessons for over 9 years.. I only count 2 years of REAL riding lessons lol.. not "sit here and look beautiful."



Saddlebag said:


> From the sound of your story, this lady opted to ride right after you had. I'm wondering, since we don't know the horse's history, if he figured he's entitled to go back to the barn when you dismounted. As so often happens, when a horse has been ridden he gets to return to his stall without another rider mounting. One horse I had would totally shut down if I'd ridden him even for a few minutes then allowed another rider on him. In his mind he was done when I dismounted.


That is an excellent point.. didn't even think about that! 

~~~~

I don't know.. a horse being good once doesn't mean it's trained. It could have been a one off thing. He needs to be consistently good, in my eyes, to be considered trained. Every horse has their goof ups, including blind bolting, but it's not good to assume that he's fine because Oxer treated him as he should be treated. I wouldn't take such a gamble, you know?


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

What you have said Cherie, is what i had also conveyed to the owner. I explained to her that, he needs to have much more a purpose. He's only 10 years old and is a beautifully put together horse. He needs to run barrels, jump fences, sort cows, whatever it is... he just needs to go do it. 
Another problem though is that she really couldn't "sell" this horse in our area. I fear he would need to be donated. He's not rideable for anyone intermediate, and most advanced riders aren't looking for a 10 year old horse that needs a VERY SERIOUS attitude adjustment. In my opinion, I wouldn't take him were he given to me for free. 

Saddlebag, While i can appreciate whatever the horse "thought" was going on... it shouldn't have ever been allowed to happen. If he'd done that with me, i would have one rein stopped him, turned him right back around, and headed straight back out in to the arena for more work. If he thinks he's going to take me for a drag back to the barn, he gets to go right back to work. I for one, have never had a barn sour, stall sour, or buddy sour horse. It's something that i would address the MOMENT the behavior reared it's ugly head. 

I'm with you Sky. Our horses will act like horses from time to time. It's the nature of things. What i think is a trained horse, someone else might think is a fire breathing dragon. You have to know what is right for you, for your level of riding. I think if the bad times begin to out number the good times in your relationship with your horse, then it's time to make a choice.


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## huntergrl (Nov 26, 2007)

It sounds like it could definately be something the rider did that made the horse insecure with her. If she's gonna be scared and not trust him, they are only mirror the same emotion so he's gonna be scared and not trust her either. She will have to learn to gain that back with her doing the work, or just never do it and have him respect everyone else.


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## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Cherie said:


> It was in response to all of the people I get, some that have had years of riding lessons, and they are clueless as to what to do when they want to go south and dobbin wants to go north. So many instructors teach 'equitation' and 'form' on an old lesson horse that take voice commands from the instructor but they never teach how to handle a horse that does not necessarily want to do what its rider wants or go where its riders wants it to go.
> 
> I see riders all of the time that sit up there with perfect form until the horse runs off to the gate and they scream or jump off or do absolutely nothing, maybe futilely pull straight back on both reins screaming "Whoa!".


Not to get off-topic or anything - but I think this is so true! I took lessons for years....but afterwards, discovered there was so much "basic" stuff that I just didn't know. Like - why use this bit instead of that one....or what certain horse behaviors mean.

There is a HUGE difference between an old schoolmaster who works daily and the trail horse left in the pasture for weeks at a time - and it is surprising how many people do not realize that!


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

very true. I bought my first horse when i was 27. By then i'd been riding for nearly 20 years. But truth be told, just because i knew how to ride doesn't mean i knew anything about being an owner. Hell, i didn't even know how to correctly wrap a polo wrap! This is yet another sad part of horses... simply because one knows how to ride a horse, doesn't mean one would make a good horse owner!


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

corymbia said:


> The reason a horse can be very responsive to cues on the ground, but completely "ignorant" when ridden is because the cues we use for ground work are mostly not the cues we use when we ride the horse. For example, when we want a horse to move forward when we lead it, we apply pressure on their poll from a halter and then they move forward we release the pressure and its the release that rewards the horse for moving forward. In contrast, when we want the horse to move forward under saddle we apply pressure on its sides with our heels and when it moves forward we release the pressure on its sides to reward it for making the correct response. The poll and the sides are two separate areas of the horse's body and we have to train the responses to pressure on these areas individually. The horse can't generalise between a pressure on its poll meaning walk forward and pressure on its sides meaning the same thing without being taught to respond that way.
> 
> When starting horses I often teach them to walk forward from a whip tap on their sides in the same place as I will put my heels once they are ridden. Even though this makes the process of them learning to move forward from heel pressure a bit quicker, they are usually still confused the first few times they feel my heels on their sides, until they learn that moving forward is what makes my heels go away.
> 
> Good ground work is essential to ensure the horse is safe to handle and has practiced responding to pressure cues in order to obtain the reward of pressure release. This does enhance their learning under saddle, however the specific responses we want from cues we deliver when we ride them have to be trained one by one irrespective of the training method or approach that we follow.


I've often wondered about this myself, I'm green myself only been with horses for about 2yrs I ask most of the people that are around me how can a horse really pickup what you want other then respect, from groundwork. I think groundwork is essential don't get me wrong but it just seems to make sense if you were asking them to do something on the ground, wouldn't it be better to put that pressure where you would be asking them from the saddle. I get a lot of vague responses ;-) 

I think it is just as hard for the person to translate what they have been doing on the ground, to now the saddle.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

chandra1313 said:


> I think groundwork is essential don't get me wrong but it just seems to make sense if you were asking them to do something on the ground, wouldn't it be better to put that pressure where you would be asking them from the saddle. I get a lot of vague responses ;-)
> 
> I think it is just as hard for the person to translate what they have been doing on the ground, to now the saddle.


I encourage you to research "In Hand Training" as that done on the ground will translate directly to saddle. 

But yes, that would be the logical thing to do to make it easy for your horse to understand the difference


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I encourage you to research "In Hand Training" as that done on the ground will translate directly to saddle.
> 
> But yes, that would be the logical thing to do to make it easy for your horse to understand the difference


I do have a book about in hand training. I should probably drag it out again since my horse language has improved


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It isn't how long you've been doing groundwork with a hrose that matters, it's how successful the ground work was. Groundwork done incessantly and only half ***edly just makes for a person who thinks that she's "done the homework" and a horse that thinks "I'm outta here first chance I get".

The kind of groundwork they were probably doing was undoubtedly focussed more on the "formula" than on any change it might create in the mind of the horse.


If you are able to help the lady, it would be cool, and she may need to pretty much jettison the things she has learned about ground work. Either stop doing it, or get someone to show her how to do it for results, not for "levels"


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## dop (Nov 7, 2009)

Oxer said:


> I will try to keep this relatively vague in an attempt to be respectful to the people who were involved...
> 
> My feeling is that if your horse is a polite and respectful animal on the ground, then your work and the respect you've obtained should translate properly under saddle.
> 
> ...


Please don't take this wrong Oxer and I don't mean any offense at all but if you knew this lady hadn't been on her horse in two months and previously had issues with him, why would you think it a reasonable idea that she get on his back? Especially after you rode him around and found him to be only 'decent'?? 

I know you weren't there in any training capacity and you were simply taking the lady up on her offer to ride her horse that day. She got all happy seeing how well-behaved he was for you and she thought somehow it would translate for her. In a big way...you set her up to fail. Do you see what I mean? 

From the horse's perspective, he had a confident, experienced rider on his back one minute and the next...a scary, nervous lady with shaking legs who should really be on the ground right next to him...feeding him cookies. Her anxiety turned into his and he wanted no part of it. 

It really sounds like this lady needs to go back to square one...in-hand training/discipline and riding lessons from a professional where she's mostly walking him under saddle and they're learning each other, etc...before she gets hurt.

ETA..I know you didn't have control over what this lady did with her horse..but in a way as an experienced horsewoman...maybe you could have suggested she not do this..for safety sake..is all I'm saying.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*problem under saddle*



Oxer said:


> I will try to keep this relatively vague in an attempt to be respectful to the people who were involved...
> 
> My feeling is that if your horse is a polite and respectful animal on the ground, then your work and the respect you've obtained should translate properly under saddle.
> 
> ...


My advice, Tell her to sell him ASAP, he is not the horse for her and if she keeps him she will give up altogether. Failing is not knowing when to say 'no more of this' and admit that this is not the right horse for you
About 25 years ago we were asked to find a horse for an average but nervous girl rider who had outgrown her pony. Eventually we bought a beautiful mare from someone we knew well who was a very confident correct rider. The mare was perfect on the ground, she'd competed in showjumping, showing, dressage and even been used to lead the ladies daughter on her pony off. The prospective buyer was on holiday. I rode her, my husband rode her, a young girl who helped us out at weekends rode her, we all loved her. Perfect horse. Right up until the girl who wanted to buy her got on and if I hadn't seen it I would never have believed it but that mare went from quiet to crazy in about 2 seconds and the second time the kid tried to get on she wouldn't even accept that. I got straight on her myself and - back to quiet well mannered horse in an instant. We advertised her for sale and the first person to come to try her was also an average but nervous rider. I put her through her paces - perfect, the girls trainer rode her - perfect then the girl got on and instant explosion. We sold her to the next people who came along - experienced and confident, no problems and they spent many happy years together.
And the original girl? We found her a lovely gypsy cob that she and her mother both rode and enjoyed, I get a Christmas card from them every year and last year got the one that told me she had died peacefully in her field at the very good age of 34.
There is the right horse out there for everyone so why stick with the wrong one


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## ggriffin924 (Feb 13, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I encourage you to research "In Hand Training" as that done on the ground will translate directly to saddle.


Skyseternalangel I saw your guy being played with this week on the ground, kind of impressed with what I observed. Alli and company are really getting some kinks worked out, I saw some very good fore hand yelds and direction control. I don't think with continued play and time with Sky you will be able to call her green any more.

My horse knows really well when you switch riders. She is very responsive and a rider who can communicate to her where to go, no problems. But if they don't pass the test, she makes up her mind for them, and its not pretty. From what the OP describes she is most certainly not the herd leader on the ground or in the saddle. I think what in Hand training sets out to accomplish is using the same cues as you would in the saddle while on the ground. For example latteral flection, by applying pressure on one rein. Or pushing your finger into their side right at the girth to have them move sideways away. Which simulates what you want them to do when your leg presses into the side. 

Most of us have different ideas on what to train or even how. Some people like voice cues (ex. "Whoa" and "Gittiup"), some people want a squeeze to move forward. Others want leg pressure to move the horse left or right instead of just forward or backwards. Still others like to use their seat to control speed, etc. I tell people when they mount my horse what to do, ie how she has been schooled. For moving forward, for stopping, for going sideways etc. And most importantly what to do if they fail the test of direction control. For my horse thats the emergency one rein stop.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

AMEN to your post, Jaydee! 

Dop, 
I totally agree with you. I was trying to be polite. My friend had just introduced me to the owner that day. So i had no previous knowledge of what her experience was with her gelding. I am 28 and the owner is in her 60's, so as a matter of absolute respect, if she told me i needed to sing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star to her horse because that's what he likes, then i would likely oblige. So when she asked me to hand him over so she could get on, i did exactly that. Knowing full well that she seemed apprehensive and nervous with him. 

I have since sopken with my friend about what happened that day. I also offered tp help this owner find some great alternative options for her gelding, and to help her in finding a more appropriate choice of horse. I am under the impression that she wants to keep him, but maybe just as a pet. And while i may not agree with this deicsion, i am thankful that the likelihood of her being injured by him is now significantly lower.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*problem horse/rider*

I know that song very well!!!!
People have this false sense of responsibility to a horse - its not the same as adopting a child. I wouldn't ask anyone to dump a horse in an auction with the chance that it could end up as someones dinner but she should give the horse a chance to have a useful life where he will be appreciated and herself the chance to find a horse she can enjoy.
Trouble is sometimes you get more results banging your head against a brick wall than persuading someone to do the right thing. I have seen too many useful horses spend their days as paddock ornaments getting fat and laminitic
You have done the best you can by the sound of it


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