# B&W Tobiano... right?



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup fading black. As for other white, I would say frame - the way the white spreads on his face above his eyes is a frame screamer to me


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just out out of curiosity... can you post pics of him in full winter coat?


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Just out out of curiosity... can you post pics of him in full winter coat?


I'll get current pics of him... he should have his full winter coat soon.

Here's a pic the prior owner took of him in the kill pen from this past January:


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I believe my new boy is a black & white tobiano... but I've read a few posts that said if a horse fades he isn't "true black" and he definitely fades.


It's not whether or not a horse fades that tells whether or not it's true black- there are both non-fading and fading black horses (likely due to a gene or combination of genes that has been identified yet) Lots of people think that fading is a sign of homozygous vs heterozygous black horses, but this isn't true either.

The best way to tell a horse's true color is is to see pictures of it in summer and winter, but particularly in its winter coat. This is because some colors & patterns change from season to season. The seasonal variation that is considered one of the indicators of brown is differenrt from the sun fading that horses of any color can display; it largely affects the "soft points" like the muzzle, behind the elbow, at the flank, etc. A sun faded horse is more likely to show fading from the top down- where it gets the most sun exposure.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Since his face/muzzle is not fading I agrre that he is genetically black. And a Tobiano, doubtless. I don't see signs of frame, his star is big but still a normal marking for solid horses and tobianos. 
Lucky fo him that you found him - way too pretty horse for the killer pen!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> Since his face/muzzle is not fading I agrre that he is genetically black. And a Tobiano, doubtless. I don't see signs of frame, his star is big but still a normal marking for solid horses and tobianos.
> Lucky fo him that you found him - way too pretty horse for the killer pen!


"Normal" face white is still being caused by a white patterning gene. For example, this mare Spice (belongs to Kansas Spice Girl, a forum member), has no other white on her body except for this star. I instantly thought of frame when I saw it, and her owner subsequently had her tested for it. She does indeed have frame. No doubt you can see the similarity between her star and the OP's horse.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> "Normal" face white is still being caused by a white patterning gene. For example, this mare Spice (belongs to Kansas Spice Girl, a forum member), has no other white on her body except for this star. I instantly thought of frame when I saw it, and her owner subsequently had her tested for it. She does indeed have frame. No doubt you can see the similarity between her star and the OP's horse.


*hm* I don't really understand the concept to blame every white marking on a frame gene.
This one was tested - no frame:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> *hm* I don't really understand the concept to blame every white marking on a frame gene.
> This one was tested - no frame:


I am not saying EVERY face white is frame, but that they are the result of one of the "big four" genes - splash, sabino, frame and tobiano. Obviously, tobiano doesn't cause face white, and frame doesn't cause leg white. However, every white on the horse that is a marking and not scarring has to be caused by one of the white patterning genes, and these four in particular are mostly responsible for this.


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

I suppose I would agree frame for the face, but the body whites trait toward Tobiano because of the chest and flank area being colored and it going over the back/whithers, isn't it rare for frame to have 'ghosting' compared to Tobiano? Just curious. 

also, I'd say she defiantly a black that just fades.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyMeadeFarm said:


> I suppose I would agree frame for the face, but the body whites trait toward Tobiano because of the chest and flank area being colored and it going over the back/whithers, isn't it rare for frame to have 'ghosting' compared to Tobiano? Just curious.
> 
> also, I'd say she defiantly a black that just fades.


Frame on its own won't usually cause the "ghosting", but tobiano does. So it is not unusual to see it on a horse with other patterns. And there is a slight look of frame in the way the body white is trying to go horizontal on the body on each side, and how it is going up the neck. Tobiano doesn't just dislike face white - it seems to not want to cause any white from the withers forward unless another pattern is present IME.


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Frame on its own won't usually cause the "ghosting", but tobiano does. So it is not unusual to see it on a horse with other patterns. And there is a slight look of frame in the way the body white is trying to go horizontal on the body on each side, and how it is going up the neck. Tobiano doesn't just dislike face white - it seems to not want to cause any white from the withers forward unless another pattern is present IME.


Yea, I would agree with that. Tobiano seems to always follow that mold.


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## PonyPainter (Aug 25, 2012)

Black Tobiano and I don't see any frame IMHO. Frame generally is found in the Overo pattern.


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

PonyPainter said:


> Black Tobiano and I don't see any frame IMHO.
> 
> It is very common for pinto horses to have more than one pattern.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

PonyPainter said:


> Black Tobiano and I don't see any frame IMHO. Frame generally is found in the Overo pattern.


Then what's causing the face white? As stated before, tobiano doesn't allow white on the face. Any of the four "big white genes" (tobiano, overo, frame and sabino) can be present on a horse in any combination. I learned that with my gelding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Looks like a Tobi to me.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Tobiano does not cause face white, as stated above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Tobiano (pronounced: tow be yah' no)

The dark color usually covers one or both flanks.

Generally, all four legs are white, at least below the hocks and knees.

Generally, the spots are regular and distinct as ovals or round patterns that extend down over the neck and chest, giving the appearance of a shield.

Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip.

A tobiano may be either predominantly dark or white.

The tail is often two colors.

Looks like regular face markings to me.. That's why I say it's a Tobiano.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Where is that definition from and when was it published?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

APHA.Com - Tobiano Pattern
I have no idea when it was published.. I know, it has always been on that sight though.. I would also like to say, That horse looks like a dark bay to me. The Mane is dark black, and if it was a fading black, the mane would fade too..


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> APHA.Com - Tobiano Pattern
> I have no idea when it was published.. I know, it has always been on that sight though.. I would also like to say, That horse looks like a dark bay to me. The Mane is dark black, and if it was a fading black, the mane would fade too..


The APHA definition, while correct in terms of their paper work, is not correct to the genetic definitions that we know now to be correct. Tobiano does not cause face white - it doesn't like white in front of the shoulders. Other white patterns have to be present to cause face white - sabino, splash and frame are all known to cause it.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> The APHA definition, while correct in terms of their paper work, is not correct to the genetic definitions that we know now to be correct. Tobiano does not cause face white - it doesn't like white in front of the shoulders. Other white patterns have to be present to cause face white - sabino, splash and frame are all known to cause it.


Where do I find published that a small white face marking (star etc.) is caused by a pattern gene (sabino/splash/frame). I was always under the impression that a small marking is "just there" - like a freckle - while bigger face markings and high leg markings are, indeed, a sign of a pattern gene. How would you explain that, for excample, Haflingers have a lot of face and leg markings, but I wouldn't know of one that has extensive markings, versus, for example, Clydesdales, where the markings are very obvious caused by a pattern gene since so many white bellied and really high white legs pop up.
I know that the whole pattern gene stuff is very complex and that there is still a lot to learn - that's why I am asking for a reputable source, no offend meant


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> Where do I find published that a small white face marking (star etc.) is caused by a pattern gene (sabino/splash/frame). I was always under the impression that a small marking is "just there" - like a freckle - while bigger face markings and high leg markings are, indeed, a sign of a pattern gene. How would you explain that, for excample, Haflingers have a lot of face and leg markings, but I wouldn't know of one that has extensive markings, versus, for example, Clydesdales, where the markings are very obvious caused by a pattern gene since so many white bellied and really high white legs pop up.
> I know that the whole pattern gene stuff is very complex and that there is still a lot to learn - that's why I am asking for a reputable source, no offend meant


I have tried to look for a published, peer reviewed paper that describes this... Proving difficult. I think that is because it is a simple no-brainer that any white has to be caused by some sort of genetic switch that tells the white to be there - with the exception being scars that grow in white.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> I have tried to look for a published, peer reviewed paper that describes this... Proving difficult. I think that is because it is a simple no-brainer that any white has to be caused by some sort of genetic switch that tells the white to be there - with the exception being scars that grow in white.


Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that (small) markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!



No, but it does mean they have a gene that is telling their skin to freckle in sun. Some people don't freckle, some people do. Even though it is a response to an environmental factor, it is a genetic switch guiding that response. 

Every white marking a horse is born with HAS to be caused by their genetics. There is no other possible explanation - unless you think that they just appeared by magic? Sometimes common sense means you have to make these assumptions, regardless of the evidence. We know they have to be caused by something genetic.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

caljane said:


> Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that (small) markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!


There are horses that are all solid except for normal leg and face markings (stripes, stars, socks, etc) who have been tested and proven to have pinto genes. There are only a handful of white tests - only one for sabino, of which we know multiple 'strains' (if you will) exist - a few for splash and a fair few for dominant white. Some of these horses don't have _any_ Paint or pinto-colored horses in their bloodlines.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

These horses have "normal" white markings that we know for sure is being caused by a white patterning gene, as they are tested. 

Spice has no other white on her except this white star. She is positive for frame:









This little lady is showing her "normal" white socks - caused by tobiano, which she is tested for and is homozygous:


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Why can't that horse have a star, and be a Tobiano? 
PHAA Horse Registration Guidelines


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> Why can't that horse have a star, and be a Tobiano?
> PHAA Horse Registration Guidelines


Again, registry bodies are notorious for being decades behind current research, so please don't use them as educational tools for genetics.

No one is saying the horse can't be tobiano, just that there has to be something MORE causing the face white.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

That horse you posted does have a white marking on her neck, and a little in her mane. Typical of the overo


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> That horse you posted does have a white marking on her neck, and a little in her mane. Typical of the overo


Spice? The one with the star? She doesn't have any other white.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Tobiano

This is for mustangs, yet says the same thing about he Tobiano color. It's not white on the face, just a normal marking. I would totally agree with you, if it were a white blotch on the cheek, or something odd, but this looks normal of the Tobiano to me..


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Tobiano

This is for mustangs, yet says the same thing about he Tobiano color. It's not white on the face, just a normal marking. I would totally agree with you, if it were a white blotch on the cheek, or something odd, but this looks normal of the Tobiano to me..


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> Tobiano
> 
> This is for mustangs, yet says the same thing about he Tobiano color. It's not white on the face, just a normal marking. I would totally agree with you, if it were a white blotch on the cheek, or something odd, but this looks normal of the Tobiano to me..


And I am saying that "normal" white is definitely caused by something genetic, and we have many tested cases where it is caused by one of the "big four" white patterning genes - tobiano, frame, splash and sabino.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Oh, sorry, in the head pic, she had a white mark above her shoulder. 

Why can't they have just a star? Sabino is flecked coloring.. (like the horse in my pic) So, if anything, are you thinking a tovero?.. what else could It be?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> Oh, sorry, in the head pic, she had a white mark above her shoulder.
> 
> Why can't they have just a star? Sabino is flecked coloring.. (like the horse in my pic) So, if anything, are you thinking a tovero?.. what else could It be?


Tovero just means "tobiano and something else" so I never use that term, it is out-dated and assists in disguising a potentially lethal gene.

How do you propose that they "have just a star" without the star being put there by some gene telling the skin to grow white hair instead of coloured? That is what it comes down to in the end.

The horse in your picture also has frame, just looking at your avatar.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Tobiano + Overo = Tovero. I agree, Overo horse breeding can be dangerous. The horse in my pic is a Sabino Tovero. Her father was a Tobiano, Dam was a frame Overo, and grand sire was a sabino, and she got the flecking color.. I don't know how it got a star, but then again, I thought of it as a birthmark.. except on the face.. It's not really genetics, is it? Can I breed a horse for a star?.. If so, I'll try it, but I never seen a person breed for facial markings..


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> Tobiano + Overo = Tovero. I agree, Overo horse breeding can be dangerous. The horse in my pic is a Sabino Tovero. Her father was a Tobiano, Dam was a frame Overo, and grand sire was a sabino, and she got the flecking color.. I don't know how it got a star, but then again, I thought of it as a birthmark.. except on the face.. It's not really genetics, is it? Can I breed a horse for a star?.. If so, I'll try it, but I never seen a person breed for facial markings..


I would need to see better and more pictures to be able to see if tobiano is present. Looking at the picture in your avatar, which is small and blurred, I can't see what patterns are present except for frame, sabino and maybe splash.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

All things that affect coloring, no matter what the species is, has genetic causes.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Reno Bay said:


> There are horses that are all solid except for normal leg and face markings (stripes, stars, socks, etc) who have been tested and proven to have pinto genes. There are only a handful of white tests - only one for sabino, of which we know multiple 'strains' (if you will) exist - a few for splash and a fair few for dominant white. Some of these horses don't have _any_ Paint or pinto-colored horses in their bloodlines.


And no doubt there. But you forget the mention the other side - there are horses with markings that do NOT test positive for any known pattern gene.
To get really technically: yes, there is probably a gene, probably more than one, that creates markings. But why would you want to call that gene a pattern gene? That is a wording that is used to descrobe painted horses - pinto pattern of all kinds, not a solid horse with a star. I own two tobianos - one has sabino in him, I agree (white spots underneath his head). The other one has a small star and stripe - I just refuse to call him a "Tovero" because of that!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> I own two tobianos - one has sabino in him, I agree (white spots underneath his head). The other one has a small star and stripe - I just refuse to call him a "Tovero" because of that!


I refuse to call him "tovero" because it's a stupid word that should be outlawed. White patterning genes cause white markings. Be they hugely expressive so that the whole horse is white, all the way down to a spot of white on a heel or head. Some horses have white patterning genes without any white at all. 

I think the distinction here is that you don't care about the white that causes "normal" genes, so you don't care to distinguish it. However, that doesn't mean that those of us that do are wrong.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> And no doubt there. But you forget the mention the other side - there are horses with markings that do NOT test positive for any known pattern gene.
> To get really technically: yes, there is probably a gene, probably more than one, that creates markings. But why would you want to call that gene a pattern gene? That is a wording that is used to descrobe painted horses - pinto pattern of all kinds, not a solid horse with a star.


That is because of a limit in current science, not a limit of knowledge. And there are plenty of areas we could apply this to - there is no test for sooty - does that mean we should stop using that term? Currently, we have tests for many of the white patterning genes, but not all of them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. We CAN test for tobiano, frame, three forms of splash (with at least one more that doesn't have a test yet, looking at the results so far), 5 forms of dominant white (out of 11 identified strains so far), one form of sabino (sabino 1, with at least another form there, maybe more), and roan. There is no test yet for any form of rabicano. Just because we can't test for it, doesn't mean it isn't there.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Don't forget the test for LP now, no test for PATN, but we know that's there as well...


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiila: My whole point is - is see here people asking what color their horses are, and for every horse that has a face marking a few members scream "sabino - frame - splash"! Now - just because some people call any marking a color pattern while other people would give a marking the benefit of a doubt and call it only "marking-gene", in the horse world better understood as "solid horse with a marking", why would it make you right and everybody else wrong? Again: there is no reputable source but only your statement. You decide to call a marking by the name of a pattern gene - and you are pretty much the only one I know who is publishing it, in a horse forum (plus a few other members - also without a proven source). 

Now - I guess the only problem I have is that people get really confused here. Of course there are so many genes that can not be tested for (yet) and we try to determine by the phenotype what color/pattern a horse is. But you gotta slow down somewhere and state the obvious. Like this horse here: he is a Tobiano. A very typical example for one. Nothing outstanding about him. He has a head marking. And here it comes - oh my, he could be Splash or Frame - like probably 90% of all other horses in this world, according to your definition. That is like adding to every color determination "and he has white teeth".

BTW: I find this discussion very interesting, I wished you could convince me :wink:

Maybe we can make a definition for another color gene, call it "the stellar gene" and blame this one for face and leg markings that are not caused by known pattern genes nor show penotype signs of a known pattern gene (for e.g. arrow tipping in leg markings, extended white markings). You know - as stupid as this sounds that would make me feel more comfortable. Because a marking is just not a pattern, even if the causing gene is related.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

However, I'm fairly certain that any horse I've known to have "normal" markings has tested positive for at least one patterning gene. What would you have to say about tobiano with a star and blue eyes? Tobiano does not cause blue eyes. Go to any reputable genetics site and your find your answer. I firmly agree with Chiilaa and Ndappy, they've done their research and are highly knowledgeable. Also, your use of 'overo' could confuse someone, because overo does not just mean frame, it covers all of the white patterns except tobiano, LP, and PATN.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also, you can go to quite a few other forums there and there are the same discussions about what is causing white markings and the people there also state what we do here. So it's not just "us" so to speak...


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

okay, its a simple fact that a horse has to be Sabino, Splash, Tobiano, Frame, or some form of Appaloosa to have any white at all. proven fact. that can't be argued. 

Its simply a matter of people being uninformed or confused that is fueling this argument. 
Here is how I think of a horses color, since I am an artist and have to think of things in a visual way:


I see a blank horse cutout, no color
Then layer on top of that the "Base" coat; so Red (chestnut) or Black.
Then add the modifiers, so Agouti, Cream or Duns...etc.
So now we have a unmarked pony of just their born color. 
Then the white is what is layered on last, I imagine a clear sheet, like animators use. I see the color pattern causing the gene on top, so Sabino, Frame Tobi..... you get the idea, and I layer that over top, the white appearing where is is supposed to be by the genetics.
and Done, you have a pretty pony!

So that is how I visualize, I could be just crazy, but that might help people understand the confusing world of genetics. lol


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SunnyMeade, that actually made A LOT of sense! Thank you for that analogy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> Chiila: My whole point is - is see here people asking what color their horses are, and for every horse that has a face marking a few members scream "sabino - frame - splash"! Now - just because some people call any marking a color pattern while other people would give a marking the benefit of a doubt and call it only "marking-gene", in the horse world better understood as "solid horse with a marking", why would it make you right and everybody else wrong? Again: there is no reputable source but only your statement. You decide to call a marking by the name of a pattern gene - and you are pretty much the only one I know who is publishing it, in a horse forum (plus a few other members - also without a proven source).
> 
> Now - I guess the only problem I have is that people get really confused here. Of course there are so many genes that can not be tested for (yet) and we try to determine by the phenotype what color/pattern a horse is. But you gotta slow down somewhere and state the obvious. Like this horse here: he is a Tobiano. A very typical example for one. Nothing outstanding about him. He has a head marking. And here it comes - oh my, he could be Splash or Frame - like probably 90% of all other horses in this world, according to your definition. That is like adding to every color determination "and he has white teeth".
> 
> ...


So you are happy to "make up" a new name for a gene that is already there and called something else? Seriously?

Go have a look at threads that I personally have responded to. I never ever say "Oh and he has splash too". I don't usually identify what is present in a horse without telling the OP exactly why I say that. If splash is present, I will say something like "I see splash in the way the blaze is bottom heavy and falling off to the left", never just "he has splash". 

Maybe it's time for you to start educating yourself on how to identify white patterns, since you are so uncomfortable with those of us who are able to do it? Reading posts by myself, Poseidon or NDAppy are a good start, I know all three of us are up to date with current research. Another good place is this website: Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics Again, I recommend it because the lady that runs it is very current, and she has lots of beautiful images to really show what she is talking about. If you have any other questions, please feel free to pose them.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> So you are happy to "make up" a new name for a gene that is already there and called something else? Seriously?
> 
> Go have a look at threads that I personally have responded to. I never ever say "Oh and he has splash too". I don't usually identify what is present in a horse without telling the OP exactly why I say that. If splash is present, I will say something like "I see splash in the way the blaze is bottom heavy and falling off to the left", never just "he has splash".
> 
> Maybe it's time for you to start educating yourself on how to identify white patterns, since you are so uncomfortable with those of us who are able to do it? Reading posts by myself, Poseidon or NDAppy are a good start, I know all three of us are up to date with current research. Another good place is this website: Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics Again, I recommend it because the lady that runs it is very current, and she has lots of beautiful images to really show what she is talking about. If you have any other questions, please feel free to pose them.




Lol, rawwwwr!! I think, they were only Joking! :shock:


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

twp said:


> Tobiano + Overo = Tovero. I agree, Overo horse breeding can be dangerous. The horse in my pic is a Sabino Tovero. Her father was a Tobiano, Dam was a frame Overo, and grand sire was a sabino, and she got the flecking color..


Tobiano + Overo may have equaled Tovero before. You have to remember, though, that *Overo = Frame, Splash, and Sabino*.



twp said:


> I don't know how it got a star, but then again, I thought of it as a birthmark.. except on the face.. It's not really genetics, is it? Can I breed a horse for a star?.. If so, I'll try it, but I never seen a person breed for facial markings..


For a moment, let's just *assume* that all white _is_ the result of white patterning genes. The reason for not being able to breed for specific markings is then quite simple.

You can breed for frame, tobiano, sabino, splash. However, you can't breed for a specific pattern (ex. you can't breed for a frame horse that has white on specific parts of its body, random nature will just do what it wants). That would also be the reason why you can't breed for specific small white markings such as stars or fetlocks.

The reason that horses would come up negative for white pattern genes is that not all strains of them have a test. Such as was mentioned before, there are multiple strains of Splash, Dominant White, and quite possibly Sabino. Sabino only has one test, there are only *six* identifiable strains of Dominant white out of a *known* 11+. Science only has yet to catch up to the genes.

I am fairly certain my TB has Sabino that is causing his star and leg markings. Unfortunately the one test for Sabino might show up negative because there are probably other strains of Sabino besides the one. If and when other tests come out, I'll be testing him for _every_ Sabino gene (and probably all other white-causing genes, if my wallet allows).

Just food for thought.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

If they know there is 11+ Strans, why can't they Identify them?.. How do they know there are for sure 11+ Strans? 
So, Facial, and leg Markings are caused by splash white?.. That would make sense, I guess.. What if they are as simple as a birthmark, though?.. I never seen a horse with the same markings.. Close, but never a match. 
There is 1 test for sabino, but there are for certain different strans that are unidentified yet?..


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

*hm* I didn't know that the rule "who shouts the loudest is right" applies here. How rude to implicate that I would not "educate" myself :-(

I found your recommended website, Chiilaa, very interesting, even if it did not exactly come to the point discussed here. But I did find something interesting in the description of the Sabino pattern:
QUOTE: At times, markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth, it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing. 

And again: I do agree that a marking is caused by a gene, but if it can not be tested for (yet), why call it sabino or frame or splash unless other factors (blue eyes, extension of marking) are an indication for it. And I am talking here only about the discussion of the phenotype of a horse. Not the "exception of the rule"-horses that have been tested and shown genetics that the phenotype does not impress (e.g. Tobianos with minimal markings).
And maybe we are on the same page, just use different words ...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> If they know there is 11+ Strans, why can't they Identify them?.. How do they know there are for sure 11+ Strans?
> So, Facial, and leg Markings are caused by splash white?.. That would make sense, I guess.. What if they are as simple as a birthmark, though?.. I never seen a horse with the same markings.. Close, but never a match.
> There is 1 test for sabino, but there are for certain different strans that are unidentified yet?..


Go to the link I posted. Read up on it. 

They know there are at least 11 strains because the mutation has appeared in different breeds, and in horses that are completely unrelated. 

Face and leg markings are sometimes caused by splash, I was just using that as an example. They can be caused by any of the "big four" - leg white by tobiano, splash and sabino, face white by frame, splash and sabino.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Facial and leg markings are caused by any of the white patterns, not just splash. Even a small star would be caused by one of them. Chiilaa or Ndappy can elaborate on your other questions, since I'm still learning about that part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> *hm* I didn't know that the rule "who shouts the loudest is right" applies here. How rude to implicate that I would not "educate" myself :-(
> 
> I found your recommended website, Chiilaa, very interesting, even if it did not exactly come to the point discussed here. But I did find something interesting in the description of the Sabino pattern:
> QUOTE: At times, markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth, it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing.
> ...


I make judgement calls based on the phenotype. I know the different characteristics of the different white patterns. So while it is just a "guess", it is an educated guess. And, for what it's worth, I have been validated several times on this forum by people who have then tested their horse after I have suggested they have various patterns. Spice, for example, was untested when I suggested that she had frame, and her owner tested her based on what I saw in her face marking. As it happened, I was right, she is frame positive.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Not everything is known about the way color works, that's for certain.

As for dominant white, I must have gotten confused with another thing I read. Could have sworn something said 11. It is quite possible that there are other strains of Sabino out there (someone with more knowledge on color please help me here - have there been blatantly obvious Sabino horses that tested negative for the one Sabino test we have?).

Now, as a completely hypothetical example as I do not know if this has occurred, if a pinto-colored horse was blatantly Sabino no questions asked and tested negative for a current Sabino test, that would mean that there are other mutations of the Sabino gene. Tests for genes are created by discovering one might exist and eventually isolating it. So far one Sabino gene has been isolated, and if there are obvious Sabinos coming back with negative tests, that only mean there are genes that must be searched for and isolated (which is no easy task).

Any white on the face (star, blaze, stripe) is, in our assuming discussion, caused by Frame, Sabino, or Splash as Tobiano tries to keep white away from the face.

As for the birthmark theory you have, if you really think about it, what are the odds that so many horses would have these white markings in the same areas if they were just birthmarks? Why wouldn't they have white birthmarks on other areas of their body besides their legs and face? Even if they're not the same exactly, hundreds of thousands of animals having the same kind of birthmarks in the same areas is a little strange. I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather improbable.

Saying that no two facial/leg markings are exactly the same to make a sort of argument against them being caused by white pattern genes is moot. My reasoning for that being that no two louder pinto colored horses (obviously frame or obviously tobiano) have the same exact markings.

Take a look at Barbaro compared to my boy Reno.
















_Very_ similar stars. Now, maybe it's just random coincidence that they have near-identical 'birthmarks' or maybe it's a genetic thing. I'm leaning more towards genetically related...maybe only because they share a grandsire, but the similarity is there.

At this point I have no idea what I'm trying to say as I've been working 15 hour shifts and am exhausted XD


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I would like to point out that I specifically asked if there was anything else going on besides the tobiano. Honestly, I would've been disappointed to hear the generic term "tovero" because I was looking for a more in depth answer.

I may not know much about genetics, but one semester in college was enough to tell me that characteristics don't "just happen." There our a genetic explanation for everything, even if we don't know exactly what that is.

Thanks to all who responded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Reno Bay said:


> Take a look at Barbaro compared to my boy Reno.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, that is so awesome.. close.. very close. I have yet to see two of the same marked horses though.. Even twins are marked separately.. Yours is almost the opposite of the horse pictured above.. Very neat! 

Don't worry, I'll be here tomorrow to pick your brain more, by the way!  I am intrigued by color genetics.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

twp said:


> Wow, that is so awesome.. close.. very close. I have yet to see two of the same marked horses though.. Even twins are marked separately.. Yours is almost the opposite of the horse pictured above.. Very neat!
> 
> Don't worry, I'll be here tomorrow to pick your brain more, by the way!  I am intrigued by color genetics.


Regarding positioning of white markings, it is thought that as well as genes turning the white on in certain areas, the foal's position in the womb can have an effect on the way the white expresses too. That became evident when they started cloning horses, check these guys out. They are all clones of one horse.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I would like to point out that I specifically asked if there was anything else going on besides the tobiano. Honestly, I would've been disappointed to hear the generic term "tovero" because I was looking for a more in depth answer.
> 
> I may not know much about genetics, but one semester in college was enough to tell me that characteristics don't "just happen." There our a genetic explanation for everything, even if we don't know exactly what that is.
> 
> ...


Apologies on my part.

Seems there's always a good debate to be had in the majority of color threads.

I agree that your boy has something else going on besides the Tobiano, as something is causing his face white (and I'm obviously a keen supporter of any of the overo genes causing white markings). I find it very interesting that his body markings are almost symmetrical, unless photos were flipped. He's absolutely stunning.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes the markings are very, very similar on both sides. He does have an odd, light circle marking on his right flank. I was wondering if it was an actual marking or due to an injury.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> SunnyMeade, that actually made A LOT of sense! Thank you for that analogy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your welcome  
That's how I explain it to my less color understanding horsey friends.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Regarding positioning of white markings, it is thought that as well as genes turning the white on in certain areas, the foal's position in the womb can have an effect on the way the white expresses too. That became evident when they started cloning horses, check these guys out. They are all clones of one horse.


I was thinking something like that, but wasn't sure.. Cloning is so creepy, lol. I can't wait to see what kinds of genetic mutations they make.. What if they cloned a talking horse?.. Or a horse that barked like a dog, lol.. Just creepy! :-(


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