# Sesamoid Fracture and Future



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

This is a very personal post. I never show Tyra's x-rays to anyone because of how bad they look, and people judge me when they see them. But I trust my HF friends to give me the tough love and reality check I need.


I've had two full years with this horse so far. We have showjumped, evented, hunted, and done dressage. In her life she has raced, barrel raced, and participated in western pleasure. I've gone from seeing this horse as a means to my own enjoyment to becoming almost obsessive about her comfort and care. I've done what I wanted to do. If I don't get to pursue my passion for my discipline, I am OK. She has come to mean more to me than jumping. 



I've talked extensively about her x rays but rarely revealed them as I get shocked responses and immediate negativity, as well as a "why the heck did you buy this horse?!" comments. She has been a riding horse for two years. Lame moments have been from chronic sulcus thrush and being barefoot temporarily. She actually popped a splint playing in turnout almost a year ago and wasn't ever lame - now it's hardened and become a nice little bump on her leg. We had no idea there was even an injury until I was polo wrapping one day and saw this knot!


When I bought her she was 3/5 lame on the left front and 2/5 lame on the right front. We x-rayed the left front and found a very scary, very severe looking sesamoid fracture. The vet at the time was, unfortunately, fairly inexperienced and unprofessional and did not give me a full prognosis or description on what this fracture means apart from I shouldn't buy her and she would be lucky to be pasture sound in a few months if I rode her like a normal horse. The vet said the fracture was healed, although it healed badly. There were other lameness issues not associated with that fracture she wanted us to manage with shoes, and once Tyra was shod on all four she actually trotted out completely sound.


over the years I have had many, many vets look at these x rays. All ask if she is lame and when I say no they are shocked. Some vets tell me no jumping, others say if she is OK they wouldn't worry about it. I just happened to run into a track vet at GGF who knew my horse and my horse's trainer from way back when and showed him her x rays just to see what he might say. He gave me the same prognosis the first vet did (this is the 5th vet who has seen these radiographs): no jumping, as she could shred the suspensory.


So I went back to my main vet and told her what new vet said. She told me yes, based on the x rays one would think this horse would be in terrible danger jumping, but she hasn't had a single issue, even after being jumped in an arena with horrendous footing. So we are now wondering if perhaps the leg has healed beyond what the old x rays showed, and maybe she is no longer in danger of becoming chronically lame. So we are planning on taking new radiographs the start of next year.


If the x rays are the same as the first set, I am retiring her completely from fences. Both track vet and current vet say dressage and trails are 100% ok for her. It's just high impaction they worry about, even at low heights. It looks like, according to the track vet reviewing her racing records and her line of sale, she got a hairline fracture at the track and the lady I bought her from did not wait for it to fully heal, barrel raced her and caused the chronic sesamoid fracture. That means, because it is newer, her prognosis for coming back to jumping is grim at best. 



I had hoped in my heart she might be able to do low fences... but the anxiety worrying about her soundness has destroyed me these past two years and I can't do it anymore.


below are the original x rays taken 2 years. Fracture estimated to have happened mid to late 2015. I bought her summer of 2016.


I would like to know, based on these x rays taken in 2016 and the fact that she hasn't been lame on this leg at all despite very intense jumping, what your opinions are on the matter? I love this horse more than life itself. I don't want her to get hurt. I don't have x ray knowledge and research on the prognosis for these fractures is so unclear and unknown based on research ive Done.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

More x rays


should also be noted she had a case of mild laminitis which is completely gone, but at the time she was just grazed and not given hay.  like i said she was from a neglect situation.

































*(mod note: click photos for enlarging them)*


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok your vet sucks at x rays. it took a LONG time to see what was going on. i would perhaps email a sports medicine vet the x rays and get their opinion. IMO it dose not look like an end of the world fracture to me but again im having a hard time seeing what im looking at. i cant tell what part is fractured or the shadow of the other sesamoid. from what im reading the horse can return to performance if it heals and dose not damage the tendons. but if it shatters and turns into a mess where they cant remove fragments is when it gets sketchy (as in disintegrates).

I do see the fragments but again im not seeing things very well. maybe see if removing the fragments would help with her long term soundness. again contact a sports medicine vet of a vet university.

to be honest i see more things happening with that navicular bone than i see the other issue. i would get BETTER xrays. ones like this 











https://thehorse.com/13425/sesamoid-injuries-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention/


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

^ old vet, and don't i know it. We aren't with her anymore. And yes I am getting new x rays next year. Ironically I asked about navicular because her feet were so screwed up and the vet said she didn't "see anything wrong" with it. Again this was NOT a reputable vet, so we discovered, but came highly recommended.... This vet WAS a sports medicine vet too!

@*KigerQueen* , what is funny is we actually have more "soundess" issues with the left front than the right front. The left front has more contracted heels due to chronic thrush that we are always battling, and the right front now has very spread heels and a large frog.


getting the chips removed is something i want to do. All vets have said there is really no point considering they are fused to the sesamoid bone but before we couldn't do it because she would be out of work. Now that the show season is over stall rest for 3 or 4 weeks is possible while she heals. I'm going to ask my current vet (whom i LOVE and has been so positive and supportive) about this.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

here is my "navicular mare". turns out 90% of her issues are ingrown bar.

the blue line is how far the bar goes into her feet. since i started seriously and aggressively addressing that she has become SOOO much more sound. 

I would not wait untill next year. this might be manageable (again they said if small pieces break off they remove them and there is a good chance of continuing a performance career) but you may need to act fast. Just get a set of xrays for the one leg effected. JUST of that injury. 3 or 4. each side and back and an extra a GOOD vet sees as necessary.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@*KigerQueen* but she's not showing any signs of navicular. at all. she's not lame whatsoever... i've been getting suggestions from vets to treat when symptoms appear. no vet who has seen her x rays has even mentioned navicular. it's been two years and she's never been lame on this leg.


The horse in those x rays very clearly has navicular.


my issue is this: her x rays are bad and she isn't lame. what does that mean? does that mean they are just that, bad x rays or does that mean it's lying in wait? and keep in mind these are x rays from 2 years ago and she isn't the same horse.


What does it mean that when she came to me barefoot and they put shoes on her she was sound?
Or that she's been jumped very hard and nothing bad happened?
Or that she's been ridden on hard ground roughly and never got swollen?
Or that she has jumped xc without incident even though I was told she never would be able to safely?


that's where the dilemma lies. how are her x rays this bad and she is NOT LAME? This is what frustrates me! :frown_color::frown_color:


Am I just lucky? What's happening? Why, after 2 years of doing everything we weren't supposed to do, is she not having a single problem?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my mare dose not have navicular lol. i was just stating that your mare has more changes than mine and yet i had a vet sware on his licence that she had it lol!

Well if she is not lame, then she dose not hurt and is stabilized. dose NOT mean there is still not dager of the bone chips shredding tendons because THAT is Tendon central.

You need New and better x rays. the chips could have somehow been absorbed (not likely but weird things have happened), they could be JUST out of the way of tendons and are a ticking time bomb. the fracture may not be as severe as previously thought with the use of better imaging. note horses put up with ALOT of pain before they show it. she could be in lowkey pain and its just enough for her to tolerate. hard to know with horses. My 33 year old can have an off day but REFUSE to quit working even though he is obviously off.

So Step 1
Get new x rays of that fracture ASAP
Spet 2
Make plan of action with vet. either monitor her, remove fragments or retire her from jumping

this needs done within the next two months (money may be a factore and i 100% get that). she may be down for a month or longer but her long term soundness is more important than that.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> my mare dose not have navicular lol. i was just stating that your mare has more changes than mine and yet i had a vet sware on his licence that she had it lol!



But the navicular bone looks fused to the coffin bone?




KigerQueen said:


> Well if she is not lame, then she dose not hurt and is stabilized. dose NOT mean there is still not dager of the bone chips shredding tendons because THAT is Tendon central.



That's what everyone has told me too. But the question is: the bone chips are not floating. What percentage of likely occurence is there that it would break off and wreak havoc? if it hasn't happened now under extreme conditions, will it ever happen?




KigerQueen said:


> You need New and better x rays. the chips could have somehow been absorbed (not likely but weird things have happened), they could be JUST out of the way of tendons and are a ticking time bomb. the fracture may not be as severe as previously thought with the use of better imaging. *note horses put up with ALOT of pain before they show i*t.


she's very expressive. her pain tolerance varies.




KigerQueen said:


> she could be in lowkey pain and its just enough for her to tolerate.


she has had several lameness checks. they found nothing and she doesn't tolerate pain at all.




KigerQueen said:


> hard to know with horses. My 33 year old can have an off day but REFUSE to quit working even though he is obviously off.



not unless she's determined does that happen. she trusts me to listen.



KigerQueen said:


> So Step 1
> Get new x rays of that fracture ASAP
> Spet 2
> Make plan of action with vet. either monitor her, remove fragments or retire her from jumping
> ...



But it's been 2 years. that's what i am getting at. the vet said she would be lame in 2 MONTHS. after I bought her. the vet was a crock of bullpoop. that's confirmed but now i'm left with nothing to go off of because her prognosis never happened.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

talk to your vet about price of x rays. out here its 150 for the first and 50 for each additional. you need 3 so see if you can either make payments (i do that sometimes) or if they can cut you a deal. cheaper to fix an issue before it become a massive mess. if she damages that DDFT she is DONE. never rideable, pasture sound at best. 

my friend spend about 10K in vet bills with her gelding including surgery for a SMALL TEAR of his rear DDFT. they even cut the nerves to the foot. he is Lamer than lame again and thats it. a beautiful 12 year old horse way thousands of dollars in training and uncountable hours undersaddle done just like that. not even sound enough to put a small child on. 

THAT is why im pushing so hard for better x rays. my friends horse was doing some endurance and TRAIL RIDING and open shows. no slide stops, no jumping, no cow cutting. walt trot canter and maybe up some hills and some trails. nothing my 33 year old dose not do STILL at his age. 

talk to your vet. email or call him today and get a xray quote. plan now and see how soon you can get them done. even if you have to much some stalls to get there.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> talk to your vet about price of x rays. out here its 150 for the first and 50 for each additional. you need 3 so see if you can either make payments (i do that sometimes) or if they can cut you a deal. cheaper to fix an issue before it become a massive mess. if she damages that DDFT she is DONE. never rideable, pasture sound at best.
> 
> my friend spend about 10K in vet bills with her gelding including surgery for a SMALL TEAR of his rear DDFT. they even cut the nerves to the foot. he is Lamer than lame again and thats it. a beautiful 12 year old horse way thousands of dollars in training and uncountable hours undersaddle done just like that. not even sound enough to put a small child on.
> 
> ...



No, I know... the danger is more to her suspensories than ddft. They have told me jumping is the only discipline where she is at risk, especially now since the bomb hasn't gone off in the alotted time frame it was predicted to just walking as a natural horse. the old vet was very adamant about me NOT getting her, but i did, and it's worked out. 



I said in the first post we are getting x rays, but if she has been cleared for dressage and trails with just the x rays from the past 2 years i am not sure why the big hurry to get a new set? It's like closing your eyes and waiting for the world to end. times goes by, nothing is happening... do you come out of your cave or sit there for the rest of your life waiting for something that may never happen? :frown_color:


I have two choices: spend the 400 and have a 50% chance of her being jumping sound, or save my $400 and retire her with he assumption it's just a matter of time.


_I just want to make sure the $400 is worth it._* that is why i posted the x rays. if there is NO CHANCE these bones could have changed I am not wasting money just to hear and see the same thing again.*


No vet in my area operates on a "pay as you go" basis. You must pay the full amount. Care cards rack up interest as well. If you do a colic surgery that is $10,000 you can make payments but they are pre-calculated and it's still too expensive. Sometimes I feel these stories of being able to "muck stalls" to decrease board and vet bills or whatever are just that - stories, because vets in my area are big corporations.


X rays are 350 for the machine, 10 per visual. I remind you I am in CA so take your average price of anything and double it at best.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my if you look at my mares navicular bone its over shadowing the digital cushion. there is a gap between the coffin bone and the navicular bone. she is no longer lame after removing bare. she was not sound for 3 years and is now sound after 3 trims of me being aggressive with the barn

was the vet POSITIVE they are not free floating? its nearly impossible to tell from the x rays. as i said. you. NEED. New. Xrays. More so THIS shot to see where the bone flakes are.










also understand she is a horse. she may have a low pain threshold but dose not mean she is not in pain here and there. Pray animals showing pain is a weakness that gets then eaten. she may be domesticated but she is still a horse and a pray animal. my arab apparently has been in pain for YEARS but the vets said she looked sound. it got to the point she could not take it anymore and became a mess. 

Please think about what i have said. all i am saying is you need new x rays sooner than later, not 5 to 6 months from now. im not saying you need to do a 10k surgery on her tomorrow. you just need to see whats going on. maybe the x rays will show its NOT that bad and you may not have to retire her. it might be the best news yet. or it might be not as bad as you think but will still need work. its better to know than go "what if?".


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

If you dont want advice then fine. You dont have the full picture is what im saying. if you just want to retire her then do that. I have 4 horses and i have bs about with a crap vet and 4k in the hole because of that. turns out after getting BETTER x rays and someone with more knowledge it was a cheep, quick and easy fix. no more calling the vet and asking if i should put her down, no more wondering if this bout of lameness is her last. instead of settling with what 2 vets told me i kept looking. it took me almost 4 years to find a solution. 4 years and 4 vets. she is now sound happy, and being ridden by someone. she id not in danger of being put down because she is 3 legged lame overy other week.

Yes i know your horse is not lame. thats fine. if you DON'T want to get x rays that give the full story and you just want to retire her from jumping then go ahead and do that.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

if she were in pain she would not be willing to do anything at all. She's had pain problems with me due to other things and her symptoms are always very articulate. I don't think horses LIE as much as we claim they do. They may be prey animals but they are also domesticated animals and have been with humans a LONG time, and are very communicative and have found that we help and heal them. She is not a mustang. She is a thoroughbred who has been raised by humans her whole life. She is the closest thing to a golden retriever as you are going to get in the horse world.

The idea she could be in any kind of pain is absolutely traumatic to think about. I don't have $400 dollars. I don't have $100 dollars. Not this month since the vet just came out to do a physical on her. i have $75 dollars in the bank after rent. My paycheck doesn't come for another 2 weeks. I still have to spend $25 on grain. The fact that I have to bring up my financial situation to explain why I can't do x rays right now is upsetting. 

it's been TWO YEARS. This is my argument! Every time I show these x rays this is the reaction I get. and I understand it but after 2 years I would think "well maybe we are in the clear!" The vet promised me a horrible prognosis that never happened. Does that mean she's a bad vet or was she just wrong? _Are these even her x rays?!_ I want x rays just to know if these are my horse's x rays because the radiographs and the symptoms DO NOT MATCH.

@*KigerQueen* , i'm sorry. i am not arguing with you. we are getting x rays regardless. this is a super sensitive subject for me. Because all my research and years of studying and finding things out are telling me a, b, and c should happen with THIS specific injury. A b and c never happened! _so what does that mean?_ do I live in terror that it may happen 3 5 or 7 years down the line? How am i supposed to feel? I don't know, someone needs to tell me.


I should stop doing this to myself :-(


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Do I understand this thread correctly?

- "I've got a horse with severe medical issues. Based on the information available to me, she might self-destruct if she's jumped. I jumped her regardless, and - what do you know? - nothing happened. Go figure! But now I'm worried that something could happen. What do you think?"

- "Get new X-rays. I can't see anything on these. Might be anything by now!"

- "Tell me something else. I can't afford X-rays."

Would you like to hear that you should not worry about continuing to jump her? You have someone's opinion on the best course of action for your horse, which is what you asked for. The risk-benefit analysis is up to you, and your budget has nothing to do with the optimal course of action for this horse. Both are as they are. You get to reconcile the two and make a decision you can live with.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Do I understand this thread correctly?
> 
> - "I've got a horse with severe medical issues. Based on the information available to me, she might self-destruct if she's jumped. I jumped her regardless, and - what do you know? - nothing happened. Go figure! But now I'm worried that something could happen. What do you think?"
> 
> ...



That's close but not quite.


More like this:


- "I've got a horse with *apparent *severe medical issues. Based on the information available to me, she *might* self-destruct if she's jumped. I jumped her regardless, and - what do you know? - nothing happened. Go figure! But now I'm worried that something could happen. What do you think?"

- "Get new X-rays. I can't see anything on these. Might be anything by now!"

- *"The fracture is visible in one of the x rays so tell me what that specific fracture means. Why would I get new x rays when the old ones showed a problem? And that problem hasn't happened yet?"*

Answers to the above question could be:
1) X rays could show +/- changes that either clear her for jumping or confirm the decision to retire her from jumping
2) x rays could show nothing different, same diagnosis but not defending the current situation that is her injury SHOULD be displaying xyz symptoms _but is not_ and no one can tell me why? I'll be $400 out with still no answers.

@*mmshiro* , I will be honest and say I am afraid of failure. I am afraid of going through this again and coming up, yet again, with nothing. The first time I trusted a vet she let me down and gave me either a sh!t diagnosis or an excuse for me not to get the horse of which she was vying for so strongly. She even went behind my back to try and convince my PARENTS not to let me get this horse. She told them 2 months MAX, at any riding capacity, and she'd go lame. If a DVM with 4+ years of schooling and 3 years of boots on the ground medical experience is telling us FOR SURE this will happen and it doesn't? Is she wrong or are we just lucky?


Vet said she felt swelling in the leg - there was no swelling
Vet said she was lame we should x ray
We x rayed. Found fracture. Found thin soles.
Vet said lame bc fracture. Put shoes on for thin soles.
Put shoes on - horse sound. Vet starts back pedaling. Says keep eye on leg, no tight turns, leg support when riding. 

Vet calls mom and dad. Says will be lucky to be pasture sound in 3 months.


because of vets doom and gloom prognosis owner gives us horse for half of asking price. I take meticulous care of her of which I probably would not have if she'd been a-ok. We are at a crossroads. I don't like to jump anymore but she is a GOOD jumper. She isn't computationally built for dressage, and although she can do it she has the $$$ movement to do well in hunters. But that includes over fences. 



That is why I am posting. We either go 100% to dressage and trails and i hang up my field boots and sell my jump saddle and say "that's the end of that" or put her more towards what she is physically built for.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i make less than $200 every week. my fiance and i are trying to save up to rent a house. my car has a vacuum leak, its going to cost me $500 just to BUY the shocks it needs. i an 14 weeks pregnant. i have 4 horses (that my father in law pays board on but i am responsible for EVERYTHING ELSE). my 33 year old was in pain but he insisted on playing and bucking and doing normal horse things while LIMPING ABOUT. same with my arab. payed the vet $500 for x rays and an adjustment and for previcox. he is now 100% sound and happy to be ridden. Odie just cost me $400 for a adjustment, eye parasite removal and heavy duty worming. Just payed $40 for him to be trimmed today. will pay 80 this week in shoes for him. Will pay 80 next pay check for negra and rocket to be trimmed. 

I get your money issues. clean stalls, turn out someones horse. dog sit for a week. take a couple extra shifts at work. I make it happen. I now have a baby to worry about plus 4 horses and 3 are over the age of 20. im NOT in a good place money wise. i make it work. and dont pull the whole "The idea she could be in any kind of pain is absolutely traumatic to think about". If it is then you would find a way. you know what is traumatic? seeing this happen to your horse at least once a month for 3 years and vets keep saying they dont want to put her down and that giveing her previcox and "riding" her should be fine. note not a single person sat on this horse for 4 years.






your horse is rideable. fantastic. im so happy for you. she may have almost no injury to worry about. but the most important shot of the joint is cut off at the top so it is useless. your horse could have just chipped it. it could be holding on by a thread and you have been lucky. i have watched horses with similar injuries be ignored because they "where not lame". well a year or two later that horse brakes down in a catastrophic way and has to be put down while in agony. 

i would ask if the vet takes payments. i have waited a few months to get a vet out for odie. i did not ride him at all. and he just needed adjusted, it was not life threatening. When we thought rocket had a caratoma i worked extra shifts and got a second job to pay for the vet.

I apologise for caring about your horse. ill try to not do that for now on.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> i make less than $200 every week. my fiance and i are trying to save up to rent a house. my car has a vacuum leak, its going to cost me $500 just to BUY the shocks it needs. i an 14 weeks pregnant. i have 4 horses (that my father in law pays board on but i am responsible for EVERYTHING ELSE). my 33 year old was in pain but he insisted on playing and bucking and doing normal horse things while LIMPING ABOUT. same with my arab. payed the vet $500 for x rays and an adjustment and for previcox. he is now 100% sound and happy to be ridden. Odie just cost me $400 for a adjustment, eye parasite removal and heavy duty worming. Just payed $40 for him to be trimmed today. will pay 80 this week in shoes for him. Will pay 80 next pay check for negra and rocket to be trimmed.
> 
> I get your money issues. clean stalls, turn out someones horse. dog sit for a week. take a couple extra shifts at work. I make it happen. I now have a baby to worry about plus 4 horses and 3 are over the age of 20. im NOT in a good place money wise. i make it work. and dont pull the whole "The idea she could be in any kind of pain is absolutely traumatic to think about". If it is then you would find a way. you know what is traumatic? seeing this happen to your horse at least once a month for 3 years and vets keep saying they dont want to put her down and that giveing her previcox and "riding" her should be fine. note not a single person sat on this horse for 4 years.
> 
> ...



Don't apologize! it means a lot that you are looking out for me and her. And you are 100% right. This is just extremely, extremely upsetting on so many levels. 



In my life experience a+b=c. I am a very logical thinking person. B=/=c, A=/=c, only a+b=c. So then Fracture + riding = lame. Right now fracture + riding =/= lame. *THAT* is why i am angry. Not at you or anyone else trying to give me advice. I came here for the advice. I am not trying to shut ANYONE'S advice out.


I am angry because an injury that is so black and white is not displaying black and white symptoms. It is not computing. WHY?! And I'm screaming to the air as I type this. Why why why why why?! Why must I be on the edge of my seat worrying when what SHOULD have happened years ago still has not happened? 

I've always prepared for her to become unrideable. It was the agreement I had with myself when I bought her. There are other ways to enjoy horses and just being around her makes me happy.

I hope you can sympathize with me @*KigerQueen* , a little bit on that level... I'll have to scrape some money to do the x rays. The ones taken are crap. I get what you are saying - they could be completely misrepresenting the injury.


That's even worse because it means the vet who gave me a sure prognosis really DIDN'T know what she was saying and was just saying anything at all... you have given me my glimmer of hope and that's all i wanted... <3 something is not right. these x rays are not showing the true story.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

and to state again THE XRAY DOSE NOT SHOW THE INJURY! its like looking at a picture of bigfoot! you can see SOMETHING is there but you cant tell if its a man in a suite or real. 

this is why this view is important

















your x rays are so poor that i cant see Which Sesamoid im looking at! it must have been set too high because im seeing though one and to the other. so now i cant see if one is broken or deformed or if its normal and the shadow effect of the bone behind it is influencing the shot.

i circled what is visible. you cannot TELL WTF is going on more than there are fragments of what appears to be bone. the #1 most important shot for this type of injury is cut off RIGHT before where you can SEE what IS happening. yes x rays are 100% worth it at this point because right now theses are as clear as MUD. You could have a horse that has a tiny bone chip and will be 100% fine from this and there is NO risk to her what so ever. or you could have a massive brake down about to happen

I got x rays on my mare 6 months apart. there was QUITE the change in a good way. 1 year apart for rocket showed he is FINALLY getting some arthritis at the age of 33. with injuries like this once a year is a Minimum untill it is rule as a non issue. im sorry if you dont like that answer. you asked. your x rays are not a good judge of anything besides its a horse who has a foot and what apars to be bone fragments around the Sesamoids but no idea what is happening besides that.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> and to state again THE XRAY DOSE NOT SHOW THE INJURY! its like looking at a picture of bigfoot! you can see SOMETHING is there but you cant tell if its a man in a suite or real.
> 
> this is why this view is important
> 
> ...





THIS IS WHAT I NEEDED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I know you've been saying that this whole time but the lightbulb just went off. I have been so fixated on the pieces believing THAT was what the x ray was about. I can get her x rays by September. I will call my vet now and schedule an appointment.


Now I am kind of excited... because I'm OK with her not jumping, I just wanted to make sure I had factual basis for her retiring because I would have always wondered...


Next question: why did such a "high quality" vet take such bad x rays and scare the bajeezus out of me...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok glad we are on the same page. i had a different issue with my mare. she had no visible injury. no heat or swelling. no pain that was testable. NOTHING so physically ok by the vet = Sound. she was still lame. i would cry EVERY WEEK about this mare. i have had her for 7 years. i have nearly put her down (or shot her myself) at LEAST 10 times in the past 3 years. my first x rays where craptastic too. my next ones (i posted) where better. im not trying to harp on you. im trying to get you to understand what im trying to get across. try to get the x rays asap. even if asap is 3 months. but waiting untill january or later is too long. if thats how long it takes then fine, retire her from jumping or heavy riding untill then. but i would be on that like now.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@KigerQueen. ok. you are the first person who has been this helpful about all of this. everyone has said "well she's not lame so why worry?" OR "idk why she isnt lame the x ray shows what should be a lame horse don't LET HER MOVE A MUSCLE". it's been one extreme to the next.


i have more ulcers over this than my horse ever could have had cribbing.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

thecolorcoal said:


> Next question: why did such a "high quality" vet take such bad x rays and scare the bajeezus out of me...


because they can get away with it sadly. my vet charged me $60 if i even MENTIONED my mares lameness. he NEVER had to even look at her! he then told me she had DSLD. ummm she has some farking perky fetlocks for that. and you need a biopsy to diagnose that. he now charges MORE than your vet for x rays ( was 300 for 4, now is $600 for 2.) in a 3 year span because his mentor died and he is riding off his name and has more clients that is necessary. 90% of lame horses have "navicular" according to him and he wants to nerve them (jut the nerves to their feet so they cant feel pain... or their feet...) HUNDREDS of people here in phoenix use him. my vet is over an hour away and i pay the $160 (or 130 as she nicely gave me a discount) for her to come out because she is GOOD and WORTH her salt.
Here are x rays she took of rockets foot. note how clear they are and how streight the shot is. they where palpating a mare in stocks 20 feet away when we were doing this and the mare flew back so hard she nearly broke the stocks and came within 3 feet of crashing into rocket. he stould as still as possible for an 33 year old with crazy happening BEHIND him and with eye issues. and they STILL got a good solid shot.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> because they can get away with it sadly. my vet charged me $60 if i even MENTIONED my mares lameness. he NEVER had to even look at her! he then told me she had DSLD. ummm she has some farking perky fetlocks for that. and you need a biopsy to diagnose that. he now charges MORE than your vet for x rays ( was 300 for 4, now is $600 for 2.) in a 3 year span because his mentor died and he is riding off his name and has more clients that is necessary. 90% of lame horses have "navicular" according to him and he wants to nerve them (jut the nerves to their feet so they cant feel pain... or their feet...) HUNDREDS of people here in phoenix use him. my vet is over an hour away and i pay the $160 (or 130 as she nicely gave me a discount) for her to come out because she is GOOD and WORTH her salt.
> Here are x rays she took of rockets foot. note how clear they are and how streight the shot is. they where palpating a mare in stocks 20 feet away when we were doing this and the mare flew back so hard she nearly broke the stocks and came within 3 feet of crashing into rocket. he stould as still as possible for an 33 year old with crazy happening BEHIND him and with eye issues. and they STILL got a good solid shot.





OMG HE SOUNDS THE SAME AS THE FIRST VET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ugh that is so frustrating. I am FURIOUS now. This could be nothing. It could be something easily removed with a minor surgery. Then again we could give this issue an official diagnosis and formally retire her. She can do dressage if possible, and worst case maybe a bareback hack or liberty training. I can get $400 from my jump saddle to put towards the x rays LOL! :runninghorse2:


Sorry i am feeling a lot better now. But I am so upset at the vet.


thank you @KigerQueen, you are the hero of the day for pulling me back from the ledge. I have had such tunnel vision believing "how could this vet who came so highly recommended be wrong?"


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

glad i helped clear that up. i used to look at everything with blinders on. i have learnt now after the snafu with my arab to look at everything, even if it seams cut and dry. you saw the vid. you know what fixed that? this trim. i dug out bar more aggressively than most would recommend. and by god that mare moved beautifully. she is still off on one side but she dose not seam to care. hopefully some body work will fix that.





. 
dose not even look like the same horse who could not walk ACROSS her stall.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> glad i helped clear that up. i used to look at everything with blinders on. i have learnt now after the snafu with my arab to look at everything, even if it seams cut and dry. you saw the vid. you know what fixed that? this trim. i dug out bar more aggressively than most would recommend. and by god that mare moved beautifully. she is still off on one side but she dose not seam to care. hopefully some body work will fix that.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F3Md2Hp0dA&t=51s.
> dose not even look like the same horse who could not walk ACROSS her stall.



Wow it was that easy??? She looks like she moves BEAUTIFULLY.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm going to make sure to update this thread with what the vet says.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

sorry for double posting but @*KigerQueen* , can i mention that when first vet found out we actually couldn't afford the x rays ( my aunt paid for them as an early birthday present, bless her heart) her attitude about helping us completely plummeted? And when tyra had a serious colic a few years ago instead of finding ways to help her at home she said if I couldn't afford to take her to the horsey hospital(SHE WASN'T THAT BAD!!!!!!!!!) i should just put her down and save myself the expense?! She had GAS COLIC from bermuda hay! The vet didn't even give her banamine or mineral oil! She said she was trying to "lie down and die" - SHE WAS TRYING TO GRAZE! The minute she got in the trailer she started pooping!


Spent 2500 on that bullsh!t trip where i spent all night sobbing because they (emerency vet's office) were going to euth her at the FIRST sign of problems. They weren't even going to call me and ask if they could! I almost lost her and ONLY BECAUSE vet thought my horse wasn't worth it to help...


I still tear up when i think how close we were to putting her down... because we couldn't afford colic surgery this vet claimed we needed or else... :icon_frown:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i feel you. i had the SAME vet as i said above tell me rocket was just old and to give him previcox and ride him or retire him (i swear the horse could have a broken leg and hed say that) as his issue was he was just old and no point in delving further. I tried to retire him but he gets depressed and stopped eating. the beginning of the year he was so lame at one point i COULD NOT get him to even play with the other horses. he would just stand there and limp about. you know what his issue was? his neck was out. a chiro (my current vet) and some weekly carrot stretches and he is fantastic. this was him today. he is 33 years old. yes he is not being cooperative but it was hot and i was trying to get him to gait but today was a trot day lol.





always get a second opinion. is the x rays are not crystal clear, get new ones. they can see darn well with them, if they get shoddy ones they are being lazy.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

he has a BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL trot. this has just been the worst experience overall. i am glad i am finally going to have my answers. @KigerQueen, thank you so much for your love and support... it means the world. 



It's funny. "When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras," yet so many vets jump right to zebras...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

please do! and you can VIEW the pics before they print (and charge) for them. if the view is crap demand they retake it because its a shoddy xray. dont be bullied. be ferm. you KNOW what you are looking for and you will not be a cash cow or rolled over! good luck!


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@*KigerQueen* , the old vet NEVER showed me the x ray pictures the day that they were taken. she just reported back what she "saw." i wasn't allowed to see them. I didn't know this wasn't normal.


I got these x rays a year after they were taken.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I had a vet tell me my Paso Fino was 'dead lame' because he wasn't trotting evenly..... uh, that's because HE DOESN'T TROT! I hadn't even asked him to check for lameness because the horse is rock-crusher sound; he was out to do rabies shots and look at a patch of skin crud.... after which he proceeded to tell me that 'gaited horses are all lame'. *head desk* And this guy is highly recommended in our area for performance horses, lameness issues, and the like. There are fabulous vets out there, and some that are downright awful and it's trial and error and recommendations to get a good one. Once you do, treat him or her like gold. I have no issues taking my dogs or horses 2-3 hours away for a good vet if an issue is beyond the dire emergency or simple maintenance.

You paid for the x-rays, you should get a copy of them to keep, and the vet should sit down with you and go over what he sees, answer questions, and SHOW YOU. The last time I had rads done on a horse, I got a digital and printed copy of the films, and that was for a PPE. Insist you get copies. 

I agree with Kiger wholeheartedly-- you need decent xrays from someone who knows what they are doing. Until you get those, I would not be jumping this mare. Period. Maybe she's ok and you can go back to jumping and that's great, but she may also be a ticking time bomb and that next jump or paddock gallop could be the end of her, and the guilt you would feel knowing that the mare had issues that you didn't look into further would be huge. So for your sake, get the radiographs and see what they say before you go further. I would not wait until spring. Do them now to see where you are, and perhaps again in the spring before show season to see what has changed.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@SilverMaple, agreed. no jumping at all until we get a final diagnosis on what is going on. I am terrified of being the one who end her... that is why I am taking this so seriously. I don't know what I'd do if I ended up being responsible for her being euthanized, especially when there was a way to prevent it. 



Thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart for helping me. You have no idea what stress this has caused me. I've written about it in my journal. It all just doesn't make sense. I am glad all of you see this too. X rays are going to come. I've finally discovered what happened to her on the track and where this injury came from, and now once I find out EXACTLY what injury this is all the loose ends of this horse's story will be tied and i can finally ENJOY my life with her.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

since you have been bowled over by vets. when the vets take the x rays they should show you the x rays on their lap top. they can zoom in to problem areas and even MEASURE them! i got x rays where the vet told me the sole depth of rockets feet! she gave me a number of how much to take OFF the toes. quite amazing IMO. But yes. they will sit down and look them over with you. zoom in and explain WHAT they are looking at, WHAt they are seeing and WHAT is truly going on. if they get a crap shot they will re take it before even asking. my vet took 4 total x rays of rockets foot. i was only charged for two. a side view and a solar view. 

as for the emergency vet... out friend payed $400 for a vet to come out at 12am with a horse who my fiance and i knew was going to die. she was colicing for 5 hours before we found her. she looked like she ran the derby, her gums where white. they tried to oil her. they pumped pellet mush out of her for about 1 hour and 45 min before they gave her some oil and electrolytes. We stayed untill 2am and she looked good. owner came out at 4am and she still looked good an alert. trainer came out at 6am and she looked like she was half dead. vet came out. they tried to save her but she was done fighting. she was put to sleep from a bad impaction and hours of colicing that even the banamine did not help.

they charged him i think $600 total (alot less than we all expected since the other emergency vet charges an arm and a leg). they only put her down as a last resort because there was nothing they could do. even surgery was not going to help her. i have seen ALOT of colic. and that was the only one that ended in death.

Whomever that "emergency" vet is needs blacklisted. my BO knows i have 3 blacklisted vets. if they even look at my horses im liable to go to jail for assault... im a bit of a mama bear with my animals. and if you screw me over to the detriment of my animals or HURT my animals because you are incompetent you are not aloud to even LOOK at them.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> since you have been bowled over by vets. when the vets take the x rays they should show you the x rays on their lap top. they can zoom in to problem areas and even MEASURE them! i got x rays where the vet told me the sole depth of rockets feet! she gave me a number of how much to take OFF the toes. quite amazing IMO. But yes. they will sit down and look them over with you. zoom in and explain WHAT they are looking at, WHAt they are seeing and WHAT is truly going on. if they get a crap shot they will re take it before even asking. my vet took 4 total x rays of rockets foot. i was only charged for two. a side view and a solar view.
> 
> as for the emergency vet... out friend payed $400 for a vet to come out at 12am with a horse who my fiance and i knew was going to die. she was colicing for 5 hours before we found her. she looked like she ran the derby, her gums where white. they tried to oil her. they pumped pellet mush out of her for about 1 hour and 45 min before they gave her some oil and electrolytes. We stayed untill 2am and she looked good. owner came out at 4am and she still looked good an alert. trainer came out at 6am and she looked like she was half dead. vet came out. they tried to save her but she was done fighting. she was put to sleep from a bad impaction and hours of colicing that even the banamine did not help.
> 
> ...



A MILLION THUMBS UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I could sue them for emotional/financial damage I would... there WAS no colic. They claimed her intenstines were twisted and needed surgery. She was fed BAD HAY.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

yep. tell your current barn THAT vet and the first vet are NOT aloud to even breath near your horse.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

will do. that's a great idea, thank you kiger!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I haven't read all of the posts, so will probably repeat some stuff here. 

First thing GET NEW XRAYS as soon as you possibly can. Start a savings fund and try to put $25/week in it until you have enough. I understand vet bills coming at inopportune times and having to bite bullets. The xrays you have are now 3 years old, you said 2015, it's 2018. They are totally irrelevant at this point and the quality is shockingly poor. I understand you have a new vet, that's good because the old one was worthless. You need to know what shape that leg is in NOW before you make any decisions. If the chips have fused and aren't in danger of breaking off, don't do the surgery. Anytime you have to be invasive you're setting yourself and the horse up for a potential disaster. If they're loose and floating around and possibly tearing up tissue, then by all means, take them out. 

It doesn't matter what the old vet said about buying this horse, you bought her and today is today and she's yours to manage. You've made that decision and commitment, so now you need to a) figure out how to get the initial diagnosis and a new treatment plan (with all the costs lined out for you) and b ) make a decision as to the feasibility of doing that treatment plan. c) You need a realistic prognosis, with the treatment plan and/or with a modified plan and/or if you do nothing. Everything from 3 years ago, doesn't matter today. Find out where she's at TODAY. She may be just fine and all this weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth is all for nothing, or you may need to be sure you never put severe percussion on those feet ever again. You can't make an informed decision about management without timely information.

Example: When Skip injured his head and fractured his sinuses, we could only see so much on Xrays. Enough to know that there were multiple little fractures and of course, the blood leaking out of his nose and the swelling around his eyes was a pretty good give away. A CT which would have seen further into the sinuses would have cost me $1200 (Thank God for the Vet School) and would have shown me blood in his sinus cavities and possibly a few more small fractures that didn't show up on the Xrays. Treatment plan with the CT, wait and see if the blood stopped and swelling went down in 3-5 days. Treatment plan without the CT, exactly the same as with. The Xrays were the modified plan that confirmed what we were all thinking, without totally breaking the bank. We also scoped ($105) him just to make sure there wasn't anything torn inside the sinuses. Total vet bill without the CT, less than $500. If he hadn't improved in the 5 day time frame we'd have gone back and done the CT and seen if maybe we needed to do surgery. He got better in 2 days and hasn't had an issue since. If he all of a sudden started bleeding again, then we'd still follow the same progression of exam, xrays and scope and THEN go to CT if things weren't clear with the other 2, because at year past the original injury, the Xrays and all would not be of any use for what is going on today. 

Horses and other animals will always insure that you don't have a whole bunch of spare change laying around. It's a choice we make when we get involved with a luxury hobby when we don't really have the income to support the hobby.

And ditto the black balling of certain vets & farriers. My current trainer knows that a certain farrier is NEVER to touch my mare under any circumstances EVER. There was a Resident at OSU who also got black balled by me and ended up leaving the program because I went out of my way to make things too hot for her comfort after she pulled an unforgivable stunt.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Dreamcatcher Arabians THANK YOU DREAMY! This post is excellent. Thank you for making me feel better.


I agree. I'll need to make some financial cuts this month but I should be able to afford the x rays in full by the beginning of september. Thank you for all your well wishes and help. I am happy that everyone seems to be in agreement that the current xrays are **** (although we paid for them.... new owner mistake...)


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I haven't read all of the posts, so will probably repeat some stuff here.
> 
> First thing GET NEW XRAYS as soon as you possibly can. Start a savings fund and try to put $25/week in it until you have enough. I understand vet bills coming at inopportune times and having to bite bullets. The xrays you have are now 3 years old, you said 2015, it's 2018. They are totally irrelevant at this point and the quality is shockingly poor. I understand you have a new vet, that's good because the old one was worthless. You need to know what shape that leg is in NOW before you make any decisions. If the chips have fused and aren't in danger of breaking off, don't do the surgery. Anytime you have to be invasive you're setting yourself and the horse up for a potential disaster. If they're loose and floating around and possibly tearing up tissue, then by all means, take them out.
> 
> ...



my first vet would have never given us options. CT or euth. Scope or euth. Treat or euth. I think that was her master plan to get money...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

thecolorcoal said:


> @Dreamcatcher Arabians THANK YOU DREAMY! This post is excellent. Thank you for making me feel better.


There's no point at all in making you feel bad. You sound like you're making the best of a sucky situation. Making you feel bad about it would only shut you down and not solve anything. Not making you feel bad about it won't solve anything for you, but it won't make you shut down in despair and give up. If that happened the only loser is the horse. Just keep banging away at it until you get the info you need to make your decisions. 

You know my little guy Mort was sick from about August through December last year right? We won't talk about what kind of car, truck and trailer I could have bought with THAT money. We made the decision to fight for him and get him better or to put him down if he made it clear he wasn't going to get better and today he's a nice, big, round, feisty long yearling who is the picture of health. And learned a whole new appreciation for JUST how hard a horse will work with you and how much they'll tolerate just 'cuz you asked them to, when they know you're in it for them 100%. I don't like nebulizer treatments, can you imagine walking a 3 month old colt around with a nebulizer strapped to his face? Neither could I, but by God we did it and he mostly cooperated with us.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Firstly they aren't the worst quality x-rays I've seen. And I have seen a LOT of x-rays. You'd be amazed at what a practised eye can decipher even with poor quality. What would be nice would be to see the rest of them though... that surely can't be ALL they took? What about other angles? If it is, I'd be more upset about that. Also remember these things:

1. vets are human, too, and prone to getting bitter over the years, which is understandable but obviously unacceptable when it affects their conduct
2. veterinary medicine is a BUSINESS. Even compassionate vets can only go so cheap.

I have many different vets I go to depending on the animal in question. And even the NICEST vet will prey on your desperation. They can be sympathetic and still be after your $$. Vets are vets, not gods. The magic words are "I want a second opinion". You don't go to a general doctor to discuss brain surgery. You don't go to a psychiatrist about your joint problems. It's about time you got in contact with a specialist vet or a very reputable one, and even then, remember they are NOT. A. GOD. And often people believe that you would have to haul your animal across continents to get a consultation. Not true. Ask about an online or phone consultation. If they require more x-rays ask for specific instructions regarding their expectations and get them done. I've emailed xrays and youtube video links to vets across the world. THEN, once emailed, they usually let me know a good time to get in contract for a (sometimes paid/unpaid) phone consultation. Yes, I've been let down and had to chase repeatedly. It's not fun or easy. I was once up at 3am waiting for a phone call about my evil iguana (who passed a few years ago). Then they put it in writing and email me back. You need a portfolio ready. Pretend a vet came tomorrow and they wanted everything on Tyra, history + medical history, xrays, bloodwork, etc etc AND you want SOLID hoof pictures (loosie style) AND you want SOLID TOP NOTCH QUALITY VIDEOS of her in motion on the straight, in a round pen both leads, under saddle repeated... The pros on here are better suited to help compile said portfolio. 

Also, pain is a hard topic. There are people every single day living life with excruciating arthritis. Arthritis is NO joke. And yet here they are... riding horses, probably  Tyra is probably a soldier. Maybe she is so used to the pain that it's just a part of the background noise now. If Tyra in herself has accepted this fact and it's not enough to make her truly lame, then you can really only tell via diagnostics OR wait until it gets so bad that she cannot soldier it anymore. But based off what you said, in your shoes, I would not be jumping this mare unless I got the all clear from SEVERAL vets first and would probably be doing yearly x-rays to monitor her, maybe every half a year if I was considering properly competing... That would be my bar, not saying everyone else would do the same or even could afford to.

When it comes to the hard decisions I always remind myself with "It is not the end, until it is the end or I decide it is." Easier said than done but try not to instantly go into panic "the world is ending" mode. My tears never flow until the animal is gone, literally, because up until that point I am too busy looking for alternatives and second opinions. 

*Final Advice:* You absolutely need to start challenging people more. Even now, I need to do it myself and rely less on others. For me, it's the farrier I can never seem to catch -.- I have actually HOUNDED vets, and I mean HOUNDED for real, to get them to talk me through a prognosis. Some literally treat us like useless potatoes. So for you, and for Tyra, you need to start DEMANDING respect from these so called professionals. They are being paid and you are entitled to an explanation for your every question as you are a second opinion. Remember, it's a business. If I suspect they are having me on I like to ask them a few times over "so you absolutely think surgery is the only option" and I like them to say it back to me and then I will actually write it down on a pad in front of them and take their full name. I only use these a** tactics on the ones that give me bad attitude. And then you find the amazing vets who are just a total breeze to be around and who I cannot be more grateful for... 

Good luck!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Kalraii said:


> Firstly they aren't the worst quality x-rays I've seen. And I have seen a LOT of x-rays. You'd be amazed at what a practised eye can decipher even with poor quality. What would be nice would be to see the rest of them though... that surely can't be ALL they took? What about other angles? If it is, I'd be more upset about that.


that was my biggest beef with the x rays. the ones given are not the best but they dont SHOW the injury. and the back view that is half cut off... i was ****ED when i saw that. i mean you are literally missing HALF the picture! agreed they are not the worst quality but lord do they only tell you part of the story. Can you make any sence out of them? all i see is bone fragments and i cant decipher anything else. i feel the MOST important angle is again, cut if half.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> Firstly they aren't the worst quality x-rays I've seen. And I have seen a LOT of x-rays. You'd be amazed at what a practised eye can decipher even with poor quality. What would be nice would be to see the rest of them though... that surely can't be ALL they took? What about other angles? If it is, I'd be more upset about that. Also remember these things:
> 
> 1. vets are human, too, and prone to getting bitter over the years, which is understandable but obviously unacceptable when it affects their conduct
> 2. veterinary medicine is a BUSINESS. Even compassionate vets can only go so cheap.
> ...



Kal, that IS all of them. Just 5. and thank you so much for your help. You are right, I was extremely naive and thought they had my best interests at heart. That is why I do so much personal research on horse-related topics. If I can't trust them I can at least trust myself, educate myself, and make sure i can't be taken advantage of.


I also agree that I think xrays yearly will be part of her maintenance. Several vets and my chiro have told me, if nothing else, she WILL or already has arthritis in that joint because of the fracture. So the next thing on the laundry list of horse expenses is joint injections and/or equioxx or adequan/legend.


I'm happy and interested in your guys' approach to horse care. Friends I have insist on waiting until the ship is sinking before acting to plug up the holes. I have always been about preventing those holes in the first place. It is cheaper and it just makes more sense. But my old vet (who was affiliated with the vet who gave me these x rays and eventually sold out his company to her...) also told me to stop worrying about her leg until she showed symptoms. But by then I knew it would be too late.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I hit sent and just saw Dreamcatcher's response and this is also true. I could write essays on similar "fights" I've endured. Not all make it. My grandpa, an old fashioned vet who went bankrupt for giving out too much free treatment, always said that people give up too soon. A vet told us to put down our dog who was paralysed for her back half, including bowels. Now, we aren't made of money and the alternative option was to spend 10k on a SINGLE scan for her and that was echoed elsewhere. Nope. So old fashioned way, as she did not appear in pain, we decided to see if she would recover alone. So for nearly a YEAR we babied this 11 y/o pincer. Using towels to hold up her rear end and let her walk on her fronts (while walking 5 other dogs ****). Doing physio. 

She began walking again and then running. You'd never know. We still aren't sure exactly what caused it though it was a suspected stroke... who knows. But as long as she showed us she wanted to keep going we kept trying. Then again, we didn't ride her


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

that's a beautiful story.


if jumping her means it's only a matter of time, i don't want to jump her anymore. period. and until I know otherwise I am going to assume the worst and stop jumping. I'm at peace with whatever the x rays say. No one would have held onto this horse longer than me. to know she is happy and pain free is all i want. the rest is just extra.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

honestly look into Osphos at time of x rays. its amazing with arthritis. it stops the cycle of breaking down bone (painful) and over calling an area (how arthritis starts). my vet's clinic dose bi yearly free clinics. they feed you breakfast and lunch and have vets and medical professionals come it and talk about topics. first one i was at was chronic lameness and birth defects. this last one was along similar lines but they had a entier presentation on osphos. i learnt ALOT and will always keep in in mind after an injury (3 months though. give the bone time to heal, then after 3 months give osphos to stop the cycle and prevent arthritis or bone deposits)

Previcox (or equioxx. one is $20 for a month supply the other is $80 so i use the cheaper) is another good alternative. just remember to keep an eye on ulcers or do an feed in ulcer treatment on occasion (like i do for my old guy who is one it for life).

i always listen to the vet and their diagnosis then go home and research the HELL out of it untill i cant find any thing more on it. hence how i was able to conclude my arab dose NOT have navicular AND she dose NOT have DSLD. and asking on here is also a good resource.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

thecolorcoal said:


> Kal, that IS all of them. Just 5. and thank you so much for your help. You are right, I was extremely naive and thought they had my best interests at heart. That is why I do so much personal research on horse-related topics. If I can't trust them I can at least trust myself, educate myself, and make sure i can't be taken advantage of.
> 
> 
> I also agree that I think xrays yearly will be part of her maintenance. Several vets and my chiro have told me, if nothing else, she WILL or already has arthritis in that joint because of the fracture. So the next thing on the laundry list of horse expenses is joint injections and/or equioxx or adequan/legend.
> ...


First, start with the adequan/legend/Pentosan injections. I'd start with adequan or legend because you can buy a vial and do them yourself IM. Pentosan is an IV injection and most horse owners probably aren't comfortable doing that on their own, so vet costs involved again. Equioxx is an anti-inflammatory, like Banamine, so wouldn't be an ongoing treatment. Starting those once you have a good diagnosis could help stave off any arthritis and put off joint injections until later. Nobody can say how much later, but remember, there comes a point where you can't do more joint injections, the cortisone in them will start doing more damage than it fixes, so it makes sense to put it off as long as you can. (Spoken by someone who herself gets joint injections and is looking at surgery because we're getting to that point.)

Agree with yearly Xrays so you can see changes and get proactive. 

My belief with horse keeping is this. You will spend every bit that you have to spend. You're going to spend it one way or the other, either at the feed store on good feed & supplements or at the vet. I prefer to make the feed store rich, if it's at all possible. Once there was a hole in the Titanic, it didn't take long for her to sink. I prefer to avoid the icebergs when at all possible rather than to have to put on a dry suit and get into freezing water to try and stop a sinking ship. Probably isn't going to save the ship and I have an aversion to freezing to death.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

@Dreamcatcher Arabians 
Previcox comes in an injection? my guy gets 1/4 a pill a day and i have never know it could be given IV.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> @Dreamcatcher Arabians
> Previcox comes in an injection? my guy gets 1/4 a pill a day and i have never know it could be given IV.


Maybe I'm using the wrong name? Gimme a minute and let me go check.

***I meant Pentosan, sorry about that. Read Previcox and Equioxx and confused myself.**** But, yes, Equioxx is injectable too. You give it for 5 days consecutively and if you need further, then you can give the paste orally up to 9 more days. But that wouldn't be my first line of attack.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I just emailed the vet. I told her my budget cannot exceed $500. That is how much I can save for this month on x rays. She emailed be back - no problem, she will ask around to see if someone can split the call fee with me and if not they will put visit on a credit and split the bill for me, and give me 2 different invoice pay dates. (call fee is $160 because of how far away they are but they are SO WORTH IT!) They are going to retake the x rays that dr zee took and then some if there is money in the budget. 



*X rays sept 15th. *SO HAPPY! My vet will send current x rays to the sports med specialist for inspection and an official diagnosis at the moment of those x rays (there never was an actual diagnosis apart from "put the horse down"), and then we will use that as our base platform.



omg guys you have no idea how much all this support means to me. Thank you so much for all your help...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

thought Equioxx was previcox just rebranded for horses? Or am i thinking of a different medication? i know it got rebranded for horses in the horse dose (instead of the 1/4th pill thing) but they charge 4x as much.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> thought Equioxx was previcox just rebranded for horses? Or am i thinking of a different medication? i know it got rebranded for horses in the horse dose (instead of the 1/4th pill thing) but they charge 4x as much.



This is exactly right. there is also an equioxx injection now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> thought Equioxx was previcox just rebranded for horses? Or am i thinking of a different medication? i know it got rebranded for horses in the horse dose (instead of the 1/4th pill thing) but they charge 4x as much.


It got rebranded for horses and is available as an injectable for horses. The pills are for small animal use. Here's paragraph I got from an article on using Previcox on horses. 

According to federal law, when an equine specific formulation of a drug is available, it is then illegal to prescribe the generic version. Therefore although Previcox is popular with owners due to the relative lower cost, it should not be used as the first line treatment. An equine formulation of firocoxib called Equioxx is available for prescription. This paste or IV is specifically formulated for horses. Unlike tablets, it is difficult to overdose Equioxx paste because each tube carries only enough drug to treat a 1,250-pound animal. It is easy to administer but it appears use have been limited as Equioxx is relatively expensive, which is why more cost-effective Previcox has been widely used. It is advisable to seek your veterinarian’s advice on the best medication for your horse. 

The side effects are pretty much the same as if you used Banamine or Bute. 

The digestive system of the horse is one of the most vulnerable and sensitive organs in the body. NSAIDs primarily affect the gut and the kidneys. In the gut, one of the most concerning complications that can occur as a result of NSAID overdose is thickening and damage to the large colon. This is known as right dorsal colitis. The horse will have lower protein levels in the blood and thickening of the colon on ultrasound. Blood work and urinalysis are very helpful for detecting kidney damage. In order to detect side effects of an overdose of Firocoxib, the veterinarian should run tests to determine if there is a build-up of waste products in the bloodstream as well as increased protein in the urine.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok. most vets out here use previcox. my 33 year old is on 1/4 a pill a day for life. might do every other day but dont really know what else to use because he is VERY happy and sound on it.
Thank you for the answer though! clears that up!


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I didn't read the entire thread, but here is something to think about:

My friend bought a half-Arab yearling that unknowingly had a fractured navicular bone. Nearly 100% of horses with a fractured navicular bone are either put to sleep, or put out to pasture. He was put on stall rest for a year, along with special shoeing. 

What does he do now? He is a horse that goes to regional shows and wins consistently. He isn't just a western horse or a huntseat horse, but is in training to be a saddleseat horse. 

_Fractures are not death sentences, and are often not career killers - that is *if* you listen to your horse. _

If you are being conservative with how much you jump your horse, I wouldn't be too concerned. But if you are in the mindset of "well, eventually she will be lame, so oh well" and are jumping 4 days a week over 3 foot jumps...You will probably have a horse that is useless. Is your goal to have a sound partner for years to come? I wouldn't be pushing her very high over jumps - luckily hunter-jumpers stay pretty low.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

thecolorcoal said:


> I just emailed the vet. I told her my budget cannot exceed $500. That is how much I can save for this month on x rays. She emailed be back - no problem, she will ask around to see if someone can split the call fee with me and if not they will put visit on a credit and split the bill for me, and give me 2 different invoice pay dates. (call fee is $160 because of how far away they are but they are SO WORTH IT!) They are going to retake the x rays that dr zee took and then some if there is money in the budget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOOT! and i understand the call out fee. that's what my vet charges. but when she hands me the invoice she always knocks 30 off the call out fee and the adjustments. i LOVE her! she is a wonderful vet and she dose not make my wallet scream for mercy.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Soooo. Update?


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

update!


I did the lameness exam. Nothing lit up. The vet even waived the call fee and the lameness exam fee. 



We flexed every joint in all the legs. Nothing. Except the right stifle, but mildly so. Vet says what she has is called a "loose stifle," i think the same as UFP but I am not sure. She says the leg simply can't stabilize itself and she doesn't have the quads to supplement for that. Her answer was more work using the hind end. Poles, trails, hills, trot sets up uneven terrain. I asked if we should even x ray the front. She said no, because there is no lameness in the front and it's been almost 3 years since the first x rays were taken. If nothing is sore, lame, unsound, she didn't see any point in wasting money.


She suggested injections for the stifles to calm any inflammation she might have so she can use the leg better. But she said they may not work because what isn't wrong is the joint, but the ligaments stabilizing the joint. Nonetheless, she said no to ultrasounds, no to surgical procedures, no to iodine injections, and no to estrone. 



We did the cortizone injections. It's been almost a month and there hasn't been any change. We would have seen something by now if it were going to help. That means, basically, the joint is OK. Vet said there isn't enough "damage" to warrant these hefty procedures, and what we need is more strength building.


I asked about jumping, and she said I can return. Though I don't think I will. I've been thinking a lot and i just am not sure I like it...


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