# Join Up



## longshot (May 30, 2012)

A join up is in it's simplest term your horse acknowledging that you are head of the herd and wants to remain in your herd. some will tell you to lay them down, some will tell you to scare the [email protected] outta them. What I do is simply work them in the round pen or on a line until they show signs of submission then I stop, turn my back and take a couple steps away. when the horse begins to follow and come to you that is the join up. Stand there for a couple minutes if they don't move toward you then work them some more.


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## dreamster (Mar 31, 2012)

I did join-up with my huge big clydie cross today and I got the most amazing results, I seriously recommend it! By the end he was almost 'working in liberty' with me- I took him into a huge paddock, (he had no halter,nothing on him) usually before join-up he'd just eat grass or just look at me but not do anything, AFTER join-up he was amazing, I could run around doing figure of eights and twenty meter circles and he would follow me everywhere at a walk and trot! I even could stop and spin and run the other way and he would too. It's seriously amazing and I seriously recommend it!


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## Hoofprints on my heart (Apr 27, 2011)

i join up with my horses in a round pen but you could do it in any riding arena that is fenced in. basically your going to start with your horse facing you and rub his head and pretend to be his friend, than your going to push him out using a whip or his lead rope or whatever to scare him, keep him moving in libarty (no lunge line or anything) keep him at a verry fast pace and make sure to keep him moving . You are than looking for three signs, the first sign is your horses inside ear will turn toward you, that means he is now listining to you, the next sign is hell lower his head and start licking his lips hes basically saying im tired boss can you make me stop, but keep him moving the next sign your looking for is chewing, this is saying that hes now taking you as the leader and he really wants to stop, this is when you turn your back on him and if he comes to you than run around the arena if he follows your joined up if he doesnt move him out again and keep him moving looking for the same three signs. do this everyday and youll have amazing results, i did this with my horse who was dealthy afraid of trailers no she loads perfectly fine without any problems what so ever.


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## LizzieE (Jun 1, 2012)

I have tried join up before and my mare never gets to the point where she is chewing. she just goes around and around and throws a fit. How long did it take you guys to get your horses to join up the first time? Or is there something I could be doing wrong?


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Not all horses will react the same way. With my pony join up was very simple and she joined up really well. She didn't do any licking or chewing and I would not push her to that point because she doesn't need it. 

With the new horse I'm working with I have to push her a lot more. She also never did any licking but her head lowered just a bit and she started chewing some. Her join up wasn't as great, and I could tell so I kept the part where she follows me off lead short before I proceeded to regular ground work.

When I join up with a horse I don't start by pretending to be the horses friend. I take them in an enclosed area and let them off lead. As soon as they leave me or start paying attention to something else I chase them off and make them start moving. I never let them get below a trot and I control their direction. I am getting after them like that because they aren't paying enough attention to me.

How long this takes will depend on the horse but when the horse starts paying attention to me I immediately take the pressure off them by changing my posture and turning so I'm not facing them directly. I speak softly and call them in. If they don't listen and start paying attention to something else again I get after them. If they don't come but stand there watching me I will go to them with very non threatening body language and with my body turned slightly away from them and stroke them and then ask them to follow me. They usually do. As long as the horses attention is on me they are good, if they are not paying attention I drive them away. Signs the horse is paying attention to you include, looking at you, head lowering, licking and chewing.You will probably notice a general softening of the horse.

I think it's really something you need to see before trying though. I would try to find a video of it on the internet, or maybe someone has a good suggestion for something you could watch?


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

And yes! I would definitely recommend it! For some horses it is like magic and with others it only helps a lot  I will say again though watch it done a couple times so you really can see what to look for before you try it!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't recommend/like 'join up' the way most seem to do/understand it. I think Monty Robert's theory behind the idea is flawed. It's a confrontational method of forcing a horse to submit/give up. Donning the fire suit now....:hide: I would not advise doing it with a horse that hasn't learned to trust you, your games & toys first.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofprints on my heart said:


> the first sign is your horses inside ear will turn toward you, that means he is now listining to you,
> 
> Okay that is good.. horses should focus on you and listen.
> 
> ...


I have sent my horse "off to work" once a few times around the arena because he wouldn't give his attention to me on a ground work day, but I wouldn't make him do it all the time over and over and over.. especially after he gave me what I wanted (his attention!) 

Ground work is much less stressful and makes a lot more sense IMOP. I would NOT do this with a 3 year old because their joints aren't as strong as they could be and it's very stressful. 

But OP can do as she wants as it's not my horse in the mix. Still, I wouldn't.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Only had time for a quick few lines last night. I'd like to explain why & what I don't like about the way people(inc MR) *generally* seem to understand 'join up'.

Firstly, agree fully with Sky's comments above & also want to comment on...



> When I join up with a horse I don't start by pretending to be the horses friend. I take them in an enclosed area and let them off lead. As soon as they leave me or start paying attention to something else I chase them off and make them start moving. I never let them get below a trot and I control their direction. I am getting after them like that because they aren't paying enough attention to me.


Most importantly IMO, I too don't 'pretend' to be anyone's friend. Horses aren't stupid & they sense our intent, often a lot better than we realise it ourself. I _honestly_ strive to become my horse's friend.

IMO if you've got your horse trotting away from you, you can bet they are indeed paying attention to you. It's just that you're telling them to leave, so of course they're focussed on other places! When the horse 'gives you' her ear, it's because she's run 'away' & you've kept pushing, so eventually she realises that her current behaviour isn't working to get you to quit pushing, so she's looking at you wondering what signals she may have missed, what she can do to get you to stop. 

I don't personally think there is anything wrong with using appropriate pressure & negative reinforcement(removal of pressure to teach/strengthen a behaviour) at all, and I also agree with the rest of what you've said, srh1. I just think we need to analyse what we want the horse to learn from this sort of exercise & what the horse is actually learning. Eg. a 'join up' type exercise is actually how I teach a horse to come when called & it seems that this is what you're(srh1) wanting too(?). 

I don't make a horse trot or chase the horse away from me if I want to teach it to do the opposite. But _if_ the horse is moving/facing away from me, I will signal them to come & direct some pressure at their hind end(not out behind as in lunging), which may indeed cause them to think I'm asking them to move further/quicker away at first. I too keep *light* pressure on until I get the smallest sign(like an ear in my direction) that they are confused about the continued pressure & ready to try something else. Then I instantly relax bodylanguage & focus to reinforce this. It doesn't take too many repetitions to work out that when I direct pressure at their hind quarters, I mean them to move that part away from me & so face me & ultimately come to me.

Monty Robert's theory behind this trick is that it supposedly emulates natural herd discipline & therefore magically gives you the same 'respect' as a lead mare. In a wild herd, a lead mare will chase an 'offender' out of the herd and not allow him to come back in until he's 'apologised'. Once he's shown those signs(head lowering, licking & chewing, etc), she allows him back in the ranks.

The discrepancies between natural behaviour & 'join up' start with my amazing observation that humans aren't actually horses, aren't perceived as other horses or often even as a desirable 'herd member' to stick close to, have far different(& often unconscious & conflicting) bodylanguage. The mare doesn't chase anyone from the herd without good reason - 'rude' behaviour for eg. She also doesn't continue to chase the horse around once he's 'out', only when he tries to come back before she's happy about it. The horse is not trapped in close proximity and he desires to be close to the other horses & feels anxious when away/alone. The edges of the herd or away & alone are where prey animals are most at risk of predators. In contrast, 'join up' teaches to chase a horse 'away' & continue chasing them, although they cannot do as they're asked & get away. Especially if a horse has not first learned that people are to be trusted, the horse generally has little if any desire to be close to the handler and every desire to be away - often also where his actual 'herd' is.

There are also similarities between 'join up' and prey/predator behaviour. If for eg. a pack of wolves was able to separate a horse from the herd, they would keep the pressure on & endeavour to keep the horse away from the rest and exhaust him until they had a good chance to make the kill. The head lowering at the end of a tiring run is a sign of exhaustion. While it would be rare for animals in the wild to be trapped & run in a small area, once they get beyond hope, for eg. once the lion's latched onto the exhausted antelope, it seems to be a common 'last ditch' coping mechanism for the prey to just 'give up' & 'submit' to being eaten. Some people refer to this type of mental response as 'catatonia'.

So anyway, I think it's vital to really analyse & consider the natural behaviour & psychology of the animal & that emulating this is indeed helpful in effectively communicating & developing a good relationship with your horse, but for the above reasons, I don't believe 'join up' is a good way to go about it.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't recommend join up to anyone that hasn't had experience with it before. You have to know what your doing and what your looking for. You can't just turn a horse out into a small area and chase him around. That is NOT the same thing as what join-up is.

I agree with what Sky said. 

But, I'd say, if you don't have a trainer that's familiar with join up...I wouldn't try it. JMO.


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## ikritt (Jun 11, 2012)

*Sometimes yes sometimes no*

I have spoken to lots of people who like this method, if used properly, and not by chasing them around until they are worn out by any means. 

This method worked with one of my rather untouched wild ponies, it did not and I believe, will not, work with the other who is extremely fractious and fearful. The alternative of being patient and waiting for her to decide I am ok is working much better.

I think you have to learn to read your horse and what they do and don't need. I can't imagine that you need to chase a horse around that you have handled since birth, if handled properly. Yes you have to establish leadership and let them know you are the alpha and that they cannot treat you like another horse but I don't think you have to make them join up to achieve this. I only started working on this method with the un-handled scaredy cats I rescued and I think it does have its place but only if done with much knowledge of what you are doing or it could backfire on you if you give off the wrong vibes/signals. 

The foal that one pony had (surprise!) has been imprinted since birth and is doing great and handled daily.


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## Mason72 (Jun 1, 2012)

one question ive always had with join up. Is it a one time deal or do you need to do it for a while everytime you work with a green horse?


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## ikritt (Jun 11, 2012)

*Join up*

I am no expert but I think it depends on the horse. Demos will show the horse joining up within "minutes" but I think this is unrealistic for the horse that is completely unhandled/wild etc. When we see a demo, they have somehow led the horse into the arena and then turned it loose. It likely got put on a trailer to get there. Therefore, unless it has been drugged (which pretty much defeats the purpose), it must already have been handled and somewhat halter broke. I don't think these are unhandled horses. I know people who have imprinted from birth, but do the join up so that later on, the horse will come right to you in the field and always want to join up (I do believe this carries over and once they join up they do it every time you come in to see them which is nice . 

That said, I have heard trainers say they kept the horse in the round pen until it joined up, taking hours or even days. I think with the unhandled horse you would have to rely on sessions (and I believe there is no timeline). I am going on 9 months with the pony (with a couple of setbacks that negated trust - no one's fault, just circumstances). She is SO much better to handle and we are very close to the "big" breakthrough, but if I had put her in that roundpen until she complied I think it would have been a disaster. She is a particularly sensitive mare, and young, and I don't know her background whatsoever ( could have been anything from unhandled to abused). She came to me very thin and scared and she was only 2.

I hope this helps, but as I say I am not an expert. I will say that as long as it has taken, I got goosebumps yesterday when she let me rub her almost all over and wanted to just hang out with me. When it starts to click it's great. I will also say that I am sure I could have done more to speed things up (maybe clicker training, more sessions - there were bad weather days and busy days that she didn't get worked) but overall I think it would have taken months but with good results.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> I have heard trainers say they kept the horse in the round pen until it joined up, taking hours or even days.


:shock::-(



> one question ive always had with join up. Is it a one time deal or do you need to do it for a while everytime you work with a green horse?


Depends what it is you're wanting to teach & whether the horse has learned that well enough. Think about what exactly you're wanting the horse to learn (Trust me that the pressure only means move that part of your body away? Face me when I direct pressure at your rump?) & think about how you're going to get that through to the horse with minimal stress(which isn't helpful to the learning process, let alone nice for the horse & you want to be one of the Good Things in his life.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Definitely if you are going to start look for a trainer to walk you through it. I learned by watching a couple times, then trial and error with no one watching me. I got kicked once, I got too close to a very annoyed mare...(it ended well and I had learned my lesson though!) If you do it wrong it can be unsafe and hurt your relationship...

I am curious welshrider, what are you hoping to gain by trying join up?

Like I said, I am for it. Although it does not replace regular ground work it can work wonders done properly. 

I also have never done it on a horse that was afraid of me, and would not use the approach I described at all with a horse that was. Depending on the level of fear join up may still work, but it would be handled entirely differently. Most of the horses I've used it on have not only not been fearful, but also lacked respect for humans.

Every horse is different and experience is what will tell you how to handle each one, in join up or otherwise. While you're still earning the experience a good trainer can tell you instead


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

srh1 said:


> Although it does not replace regular ground work it can work wonders done properly.
> 
> I also have never done it on a horse that was afraid of me, and would not use the approach I described at all with a horse that was. Depending on the level of fear join up may still work, but it would be handled entirely differently. Most of the horses I've used it on have not only not been fearful, but also lacked respect for humans.
> 
> Every horse is different and experience is what will tell you how to handle each one, in join up or otherwise. While you're still earning the experience a good trainer can tell you instead


Agree :thumbsup: !!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I would say that I do a modified version of 'join up'. Every one of my horses was different to train. Therefor, I had to adjust my body language, expectations, tools/aids and time spent on each exercise. But that is what each revolution is....an exercise, not mindless circles. It has taught me patience and to really learn horse body language while teaching me about my body language. I don't overdo it with long lessons....just long enough to get that effort from each horse. I feel it has given me a wonderful relationship with my horses. However, for me the lesson never ends....I am constantly applying the lesson. If I am leading, then I test them to see if they are paying attention to me....as if they are always asking me questions and checking in with me. Never just a straight line from point A to point B. I in no way am claiming that I am a trainer. However, I can say that what I have done has worked for me....whether or not it is considered the 'correct' method or not. I have used different variations from different trainers as needed by each individual horse. I think an important thing is to feel comfortable with whatever method you use so it is easy for you to be consistent and non-emotional creating a positive environment for your horse to learn and respect you.:happydance:


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## wranglerman (Jun 15, 2012)

I could not agree with you more oldhorselady, no one horse will have the same reactions as another, even if they are full brothers/sisters.

You have the basis for join up, the most important thing to do is get there, it may take a little longer with some horses and a little variation in your technique but as long as you "join up" then all is good.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

As loosie and others have pointed out, its rather absurd to chase a horse away in order to get it to come towards you and stay with you. In learning theory terms what you are doing is punishing it for the very behaviour you will reinforce (reward) moments later. 

As loosie also points out, in the wild (or even in our paddocks) horses don't chase each other around and around. They chase each other enough to get the other horse away and then they quit. 

Lastly, there is no evidence in any of the peer reviewed studies of wild horses that head lowering, licking and chewing and ear orientation are signs of a horse "submitting to, respecting" or any other kind of acknowledgement of leadership of another horse. The only reliable sign that one horse acknowledges that another horse is more dominant than it is by moving away. Not coming towards or coming closer. Avoidance is the key indicator horse researchers use to tell who is top horse and who is not when studying wild horse herds. 

Many species of animals will lick and chew after they have received a fright, including dogs, cats, cows, goats, sheep and horses. Its thought to be due to the drying effects of adrenaline on saliva production. 

Lastly, Join-up works for the same reason that any horse training system works- negative refinforcement and classical conditioning. There is no mystery or magic to its effectiveness and it has nothing to do with the horse thinking that the trainer is another horse or that the trainer speaks its language. We lack a lot of the features that horses use to communicate with each other, like moveable ears, heads on long necks, tails, four legs etc. 

If you really want to bond with a horse using food rewards to train it to perform specific behaviours is ideal. You will be giving it something it genuinely likes- food and it will associate you with getting that food. Getting chased is not rewarding for a horse and given we need our horses to stay with us rather than run away it is an illogical way to teach them stay.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Well put Corymbia!


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

With my horse he was very bold! Took me multiple attempts to get him to realze I was leader! Now he is pretty good at understanding I am leader but I still have to refresh him at times.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

HeroMyOttb said:


> With my horse he was very bold! Took me multiple attempts to get him to realze I was leader! Now he is pretty good at understanding I am leader but I still have to refresh him at times.


I don't believe you can force leadership, only work towards *earning* it. If it takes 'refreshing', I think it's more likely he sees you as dominant but not a worthy leader. If he's a dominant personality himself, I'd be avoiding dominance challenges actually.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

I completely understand what you are saying, I did work with him on that for weeks before he showed me more respect. When I mean refresh its when he decides to become more "pushy." I do not like pushy and do a little refresher on him. But I could see how he see's me as more dominant but not completely his leader.


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## wranglerman (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh no not again!!!!

As loosie and others have pointed out, its rather absurd to chase a horse away in order to get it to come towards you and stay with you. In learning theory terms what you are doing is punishing it for the very behaviour you will reinforce (reward) moments later. 

As loosie also points out, in the wild (or even in our paddocks) horses don't chase each other around and around. They chase each other enough to get the other horse away and then they quit. 

Lastly, there is no evidence in any of the peer reviewed studies of wild horses that head lowering, licking and chewing and ear orientation are signs of a horse "submitting to, respecting" or any other kind of acknowledgement of leadership of another horse. The only reliable sign that one horse acknowledges that another horse is more dominant than it is by moving away. Not coming towards or coming closer. Avoidance is the key indicator horse researchers use to tell who is top horse and who is not when studying wild horse herds. 

Many species of animals will lick and chew after they have received a fright, including dogs, cats, cows, goats, sheep and horses. Its thought to be due to the drying effects of adrenaline on saliva production. 

Lastly, Join-up works for the same reason that any horse training system works- negative refinforcement and classical conditioning. There is no mystery or magic to its effectiveness and it has nothing to do with the horse thinking that the trainer is another horse or that the trainer speaks its language. We lack a lot of the features that horses use to communicate with each other, like moveable ears, heads on long necks, tails, four legs etc. 

If you really want to bond with a horse using food rewards to train it to perform specific behaviours is ideal. You will be giving it something it genuinely likes- food and it will associate you with getting that food. Getting chased is not rewarding for a horse and given we need our horses to stay with us rather than run away it is an illogical way to teach them stay.

You really don't know what you are talking about!!!!

I work with horses professionally and I am lucky enough to be able to observe the horses in the paddocks, stop looking romantically at the behavior of horses and look at the way they achieve their ranking in the herds pecking order, it is by chasing them away until they submit, you say the licking and chewing is caused by the drying affect in the mouth from adrenalin? have you ever observed a foal when it is with the mare? if she is submissive then the foal should also show its submission, it does this with the licking and chewing, the licking and chewing can be seen on a horse that is submitting but it is not being "chased", there is no fast physical exertion just body language.

learn your topic before casting your opinion!!!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

wranglerman said:


> learn your topic before casting your opinion!!!


^^ IMO about the most important point, re 'join up' or otherwise.... and don't just learn what the 'guru' that made it up or promotes it wants you to believe!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I do what works for each of my horses. It is not following an individual as if they are God, but taking the positives from each situation. If you are teaching and the horse is learning in a positive way...what is the harm?


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

OP its completly rewarding- People whom have never used this method just simply dont understand. Since your already interested- And have some good knowledge, Give it a whirl. The worst thing you could do is give your horse a good lunge. And My usual advice is John Lyons Round pen training google-Youtube. Its all there- Similar/same to join up


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

HeroMyOttb said:


> I completely understand what you are saying, I did work with him on that for weeks before he showed me more respect. When I mean refresh its when he decides to become more "pushy." I do not like pushy and do a little refresher on him. But I could see how he see's me as more dominant but not completely his leader.


I'm afraid I don't think you do understand what I meant. 'Dominant' type horses play dominance games with eachother frequently. Playing them with your horse teaches him you're NOT a leader, but just a player, always up for a challenge... so he'll keep challenging. It sounds like he's luckily not too interested in being dominant, yet at least, or he'd have 'upped the ante' at your challenges. You need to stop playing those games if you want him to start seeing you in another light.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KissTheRing said:


> OP its completly rewarding- People whom have never used this method just simply dont understand. Since your already interested- And have some good knowledge, Give it a whirl. The worst thing you could do is give your horse a good lunge. And My usual advice is John Lyons Round pen training google-Youtube. Its all there- Similar/same to join up


You're right I reckon, that it's rewarding *to the handler* because if they don't truly understand the process, it seems like magic when it works. If you're including me in the 'just simply dont understand' however, you're assuming wrongly. It sounds to me that the others that have responded similarly are equally as knowledgeable & experienced actually. 

Very shortened background... after years of conventional type horse experience, I discovered 'NH', including MR & 'Join Up'. I did fall for MR's theory to begin with, not knowing any better & practiced 'Join Up', mostly successfully(according to the theory) on a wide range of horses(I was working with horses at the time, not just my own). Then I studied behavioural psychology & equine ethology and started to see it for what it actually is. Like I said, I now use 'join up' type exercises still sometimes, to teach specific things, but I now 'just simly DO understand' better than to use it according to MR's flawed theory.

Also as I've said plenty of times before... This is my opinion & experience. Don't take my word for it blindly, or anyone elses, 'gurus' or otherwise, but bother to learn what's behind it yourself, so you can come to informed & objective opinions. Because in practicing things you don't fully understand, the worst you could do is much worse than just 'a good lunge'.


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## TrojanCowgirl (Jun 1, 2012)

I used Monty Robert's join up with my mustang. We've been doing liberty work ever since.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I used these techniques on my OTTB who was extremely dominant. In the herd he was always top dog and he would definately test people playing all of the games. He was very playful. Mind needed to be constantly stimulated. It had to be his way (or make him think it was). There was very little he was scared of.....very confident horse. Training took psychology, patience, persistence, consistency, stimulating and respectful. I did a lot of 'join up' type stuff with him as a foundation with building respect without being threatening. I think it is the attitude you portray when you are chasing away. To me, I wasn't being a preditor, just making him move, but calmly and fairly....not to be mean....if that makes sense. It didn't take long, he caught on to things very quickly and seemed to enjoy the having a leader instead of being the leader. It worked for us. I can't say it is wrong if I had a well-mannered and wonderful riding horse.


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## skyhorse1999 (Dec 29, 2011)

ok so i am just goiong to post this on this thread cause nobody will look at mine so i have been wantin ti try join up for about 6 years....but i only got my horse this year. he will come to me in the field....but on;ly if i'm within 6 or 7 feet and hide my halter...he will rest his head on my shoulder and sleep but will stop if i start to stroke. after i ride, i usually take off his saddle and take it to the rail, and he will follow and even follow me over some ground poles, but if there are other people in the arena he wont. I was planning on trying join up soon just to seal the bond a little more but this thread is making me doubt a little....i just want to know if join up is the right ting to do. i have seen a couple people at my barn do it not to mention 7 years worth of videos. basically, i am prepared and informed, but should i do it?


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## TrojanCowgirl (Jun 1, 2012)

skyhorse1999 said:


> ok so i am just goiong to post this on this thread cause nobody will look at mine so i have been wantin ti try join up for about 6 years....but i only got my horse this year. he will come to me in the field....but on;ly if i'm within 6 or 7 feet and hide my halter...he will rest his head on my shoulder and sleep but will stop if i start to stroke. after i ride, i usually take off his saddle and take it to the rail, and he will follow and even follow me over some ground poles, but if there are other people in the arena he wont. I was planning on trying join up soon just to seal the bond a little more but this thread is making me doubt a little....i just want to know if join up is the right ting to do. i have seen a couple people at my barn do it not to mention 7 years worth of videos. basically, i am prepared and informed, but should i do it?


I highly recommend it. Once we did it didn't matter if there were other horse's/people where we were, he knew who his leader was and where he was safe. I believe that's why we still, to this day, have a remarkable bond that I just can't pinpoint. There's just a connection.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

TrojanCowgirl said:


> I highly recommend it. Once we did it didn't matter if there were other horse's/people where we were, he knew who his leader was and where he was safe. I believe that's why we still, to this day, have a remarkable bond that I just can't pinpoint. There's just a connection.


I TOTALLY agree....there are no words for the bond I have with my horses....who all were rejected by previous owners. My mare, who I just sadly had put down, was the extreme. She was my first horse. I had no clue what I was doing. She had no clue what she was doing at 16 and never broke. She was a train wreck and complete basket case. The trainer quit with her after the first day when she tried to lunge her and my mare lunged at her and hurt her to where the trainer ended up with stitches in her forehead. She was labeled dangerous, mean, impossible and crazy. Nobody would deal with her. I didn't want to give up on her. I somehow felt we could work together. I was just recovering from ankle surgery after breaking it on my first trail ride on a leased horse and was in no hurry to ride. That was when I opened my first book and started watching videos etc.

Since then, all four of my horses were trained basically the same way....little bits of variation depending on their personality. However, all of them I did join up with. Whether you have a crazy hyperactive horse or a non-spooky confident horse, they all can hurt you with lack of respect for you.

All my horses can be at liberty in a 200 foot arena and still listen to my cues and make them walk, trot or canter without me having to chase them. They will also stop and come into me when asked. They follow me like puppy dogs and even the ones that don't like eachother in the pasture will respect eachother and not try any funny business when I am present. On a trail ride it will save you because if your horse is scared or you end up on the ground, they will look to you for the next answer....not try and run home. I can say that from experience with my crazy mare who is the spookiest one in the group.....one other rider, who was a trainer, fell off after her horse reared and took off home.....other horses ran trying to follow. My horse was scared and nervous, but swung her head around (while dancing around and chomping the bit) to my leg as if questioning me what to do. I pet her and assured her it was ok......and it was.

Can I say that there is some magic miracle for this? Not really. Only the experience that I have had. I believe that the relationship with you horse is the most valuable thing you have and can save your life. Many people just over look that step and maybe have never even experienced it, thinking that because their horses can do all kinds of fancy tricks that they are trained.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

skyhorse1999 said:


> I was planning on trying join up soon just to seal the bond a little more but this thread is making me doubt a little....i just want to know if join up is the right ting to do. i have seen a couple people at my barn do it not to mention 7 years worth of videos. basically, i am prepared and informed, but should i do it?


If you're 'prepared & informed' I don't get why you're asking us? I would also make a point of understanding horse ethology(natural behaviour) & bodylanguage well before you try it, don't just be 'informed' about it from an 'NH' theory. I also recommend everyone learn the principles of basic behavioural training - not as heavy as it might sound - so they can know when to be, when not to be & why. Then you should be able to work out when & why to do something like roundpenning.



> Can I say that there is some magic miracle for this? Not really. Only the experience that I have had. I believe that the relationship with you horse is the most valuable thing you have and can save your life. Many people just over look that step and maybe have never even experienced it, thinking that because their horses can do all kinds of fancy tricks that they are trained.


Yes! That is SO important IMO. I don't want 'submission' at all from my horses, I don't want to be seen as 'dominant'. I don't want _just_ 'obedience' or _just_ 'respect', I want my horses to LIKE being with me & playing my games, to trust me, not just not to hurt them, but to know what's best for them.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

I had a disrespectful gelding (not anymore). And one time in the field he almost kicked me because of another horse, so i acted as the dominant horse, and pushed him out of the herd, and around in a circle for about 10 min. He got the picture real fast that i don't tolerate being kicked at when in and around the group. Once he realized he was wrong in what he did, and that the "boss" was disciplining him. He locked his one ear one me, and lowered his head, and i turned my back and let him come back into the group. And since then when i'm out and about and he has a problem with anther horse, he waits until i'm out of the way or i just say HEY!!! and he straightens right back up. It worked very well, he comes to greet me everytime i go into the pasture. i.e. he's also the dominant gelding of the herd.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> I had a disrespectful gelding (not anymore). And one time in the field he almost kicked me because of another horse, so i acted as the dominant horse, and pushed him out of the herd, and around in a circle for about 10 min.


IMO it's important to understand the difference between 'dominant' & respected leader. I don't see what you did as *necessarily* dominant, but it is what a lead mare might do. I've also enjoyed using 'join up' in this sort of situation. I also think this is the way to do it, if you're striving to use 'natural herd behaviour' & MR's theory - IMO 'join up' should be done in an open pasture, the horse not continually chased around, but just kept from returning to the group until you *allow* them back.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

My dominant OTTB would chase any herd member he wanted at full gallop what seemed like just to be an *******. My mare was lead mare over everyone but him. She did not like any other mare....EVER.....it was always ears pinned, neck stretched, teeth showing, snorting and running them away....even up to her final days when she could no longer walk without being lame in both front legs. She had, in the past lunged at other people if she felt threatened.....like the trainer trying to lunger her the first day with a whip and when someone shouted at her and banged on her barnstall door to irritate her when eating. Both of these two horses got along very well, but with anyone else they were both very dominant. Took a lot to accept another horse. Like I said, the OTTB would definately try to play every game imaginable to get his way. My mare was excellent with people if I was with her and she wasn't being threatened.

The two horses I only have now are the exact opposites of my first two.....bottom of the totem pole, docile, love everyone and everything. Training is definately different, but same foundation for me.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

My gelding was very aggressive at feeding time,and i've been knocked over, and bitten because of his antics. So i just got tired of him being a butthead to the other horses when i was around, and chasing them away when i was handing out a sweet treat or something. He uses the same behavior i did to him on his 1/2 brother all the time, and in my observing, i noticed that if i did that maybe he would respect my authority when in in and around the herd. I wasn't planning on doing anything more, just proving my stance in the group. I do the same with any member of the herd, and its usually at liberty in a pasture. I try not to push a horse any harder than necessary. Just want them to have manners and respect for the people who go in and around them.  Thank you though.


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## Angel5000 (Mar 30, 2010)

I was just in a trailer incedent with my horse and i have been looking for ways to cure it but after hearing this i am definatly going to try it. I have heard of joining up but i haven't had acess to a round pen but im going to try it just with a lung line and whip and see what happens!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Angel5000 said:


> I was just in a trailer incedent with my horse and i have been looking for ways to cure it but after hearing this i am definatly going to try it. I have heard of joining up but i haven't had acess to a round pen but im going to try it just with a lung line and whip and see what happens!


My favorite tool is a flag. Had to use a lariat with my OTTB who played the 'you can't reach me' game for a little while. Then when I just held it coiled up in my hands, he thought I could still reach him from anywhere, even if I couldn't.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Angel5000 said:


> I was just in a trailer incedent with my horse and i have been looking for ways to cure it but after hearing this i am definatly going to try it. I have heard of joining up but i haven't had acess to a round pen but im going to try it just with a lung line and whip and see what happens!


So IOW, you're going to try teaching some different cues on a lunge to see if it 'cures' fear of the trailer?


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## equinegirl26 (Jul 8, 2012)

Push your horse away from you by waving your arms and "chasing" him.
The way to know a horse is ready to join up with you are by several signs
• Inner Ear Turned Toward You
• Snorting
• Mouthing
• Sticking Tongue In & Out


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## skyhorse1999 (Dec 29, 2011)

_you're 'prepared & informed' I don't get why you're asking us? I would also make a point of understanding horse ethology(natural behaviour) & bodylanguage well before you try it, don't just be 'informed' about it from an 'NH' theory. I also recommend everyone learn the principles of basic behavioural training - not as heavy as it might sound - so they can know when to be, when not to be & why. Then you should be able to work out when & why to do something like roundpenning._

I just meant that I know _how _to do it and why it would be beneficial, but there wwere some comments about how it doesnt work and it sends a bad message. I was just a bit confused


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## TrojanCowgirl (Jun 1, 2012)

I haven't been able to do join up with my riding horse yet, once we move I will be able to put up a round pen. Yaaay  She already does Liberty Work, I'll betcha she'll be even better.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Snorting's now been added to the list of desirable stress signs... :? What the heck, why don't we add grinding teeth too??


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## BlooBabe (Jul 7, 2012)

The idea of join up is: if the horse doesn't do what I want then I'm going to make him work harder. It teaches a horse to listen because if they don’t they’re going to have to do more work than the initially would have if they’d just done what you’d asked in the first place. Some people say it builds a bond but really the horse learns that whatever you want them to do is easier than not doing it or doing what they want. For example, I want the horse to pay attention to me and stand by my shoulder but it won’t so I’m going to make it do work until it does, then when it does what I want I’ll reward it by letting it stop working. doesn't scream natural to me.

It won’t work if the horse doesn’t know what you’re asking it. So if you want a horse to move a certain part of its body a certain way with a single cue you have to put the horse in that position, give them the cue, then reward them. Then once they know the cue, if they don’t send them out to do work. Join up is a crack pot idea that gives people a superiority complex and makes them think they are being integrated into the herd as a dominant member. It does teach a horse to listen to you but it does that by teaching them your way is easier. 
The idea that it works to create a bond is crazy to me. If you’re going to use it be careful because you can teach a horse to resent you or try harder to prove they are the dominant one in the relationship. If it isn’t working then stop trying. Horses are bigger and stronger than their human counterparts and if you’re not paying attention to what’s working or not you’re going to get hurt.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

loosie said:


> Snorting's now been added to the list of desirable stress signs... :? What the heck, why don't we add grinding teeth too??


Next it'll be blinking!


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## TrojanCowgirl (Jun 1, 2012)

Personally I just look for the inner ear, relaxation and licking/chewing. Also if they tilt their head in a little toward me, I take that as well. I never heard of using snorting as a sign on relaxation, probably never will take it that way either.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

BlooBabe said:


> The idea of join up is: if the horse doesn't do what I want then I'm going to make him work harder. It teaches a horse to listen because if they don’t they’re going to have to do more work than the initially would have if they’d just done what you’d asked in the first place. Some people say it builds a bond but really the horse learns that whatever you want them to do is easier than not doing it or doing what they want. For example, I want the horse to pay attention to me and stand by my shoulder but it won’t so I’m going to make it do work until it does, then when it does what I want I’ll reward it by letting it stop working. doesn't scream natural to me.
> 
> It won’t work if the horse doesn’t know what you’re asking it. So if you want a horse to move a certain part of its body a certain way with a single cue you have to put the horse in that position, give them the cue, then reward them. Then once they know the cue, if they don’t send them out to do work. Join up is a crack pot idea that gives people a superiority complex and makes them think they are being integrated into the herd as a dominant member. It does teach a horse to listen to you but it does that by teaching them your way is easier.
> The idea that it works to create a bond is crazy to me. If you’re going to use it be careful because you can teach a horse to resent you or try harder to prove they are the dominant one in the relationship. If it isn’t working then stop trying. Horses are bigger and stronger than their human counterparts and if you’re not paying attention to what’s working or not you’re going to get hurt.


The learning theory term for this is negative reinforcement- the horse is rewarded for doing something by having something it doesn't like (work, being chased) taken away. Its exactly the same principle as as when we use a rein or leg cue to signal a stop or go. 

The idea about the bond does my head in too. The idea that first you have to chase your horse who is already standing next to you away so that he can then come back to you is contradictory. 

In learning terms you are actually punishing him for a response you want him to perform however many revolutions of the round pen later. Join-up is simply a method which first gets the horse to escape from you by scaring it and then teaches it to avoid being chased by coming back to you. Its no different to the many hundreds of experiments pyschologists did with rats and dogs and electric shocks back in the 60s and 70s. There's certainly nothing particularly "natural" about it. 

Horses do chase each other away, but in the vast majority of cases they don't keep on chasing once the other horse is out of their way, and the key way that horses show their "respect" for other horses is to stay of their way completely. Avoidance is the most "natural" sign of respect and submission a horse can do- yet we call a horse running away from us or keeping out of our way disrespectful and so we chase it some more.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

corymbia said:


> ...key way that horses show their "respect" for other horses is to stay of their way completely. Avoidance is the most "natural" sign of respect and submission a horse can do- yet we call a horse running away from us or keeping out of our way disrespectful and so we chase it some more.


'Respect' in the way most horsepeople use the term also does my head in!


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## horsehealer122 (Jul 18, 2012)

Alright so you drive you horse around the round pen with big exagearated movements until he shows signs of submission (head down, licking and chewing) then you turn around and he should come to you. Questions?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

It is a part of my basic training with every horse I work with. It also allows you to get a feel for the horse and focus on their body language. It also helps teach the human to learn about reading their horse. It is not the only thing I use in training my horses. As I've stated before, I take bits and pieces from different trainers and using different tools depending on the horse I am dealing with. But, I always start with join up. It allows me to be able to control my horse at liberty in a 200 foot arena. I never have to chase my horses around to catch them and I don't have to chase after my horses to get them to move either. If it seems dumb to some or not useful to some that is fine. Work with what works for you. I can't knock it since it works well for me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horsehealer122 said:


> Alright so you drive you horse around the round pen with big exagearated movements until he shows signs of submission (head down, licking and chewing) then you turn around and he should come to you. Questions?


Not quite sure what you're asking here horsehealer. Yes, exaggerated movements or otherwise, it does work to get your horse to follow you. What I think it most important to consider though is *how/why* it works & what effects this sort of lesson may have on your horse. Having studied behavioural psych & equine ethology, I do not believe the guru's theory behind it, do not think it works in any magical context or how the guru & many believe it does.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

corymbia said:


> The learning theory term for this is negative reinforcement- the horse is rewarded for doing something by having something it doesn't like (work, being chased) taken away. Its exactly the same principle as as when we use a rein or leg cue to signal a stop or go.
> 
> The idea about the bond does my head in too. The idea that first you have to chase your horse who is already standing next to you away so that he can then come back to you is contradictory.
> 
> ...


 
Avoidance or running away WHEN TOLD TO DO SO is the sign of submission/respect. 
The dominant horse does not always require the other horses to stay away from him/her. but , when food or other resources are there, the leader will require it. So, the leader can move the other's feet, but can also choose to allow them to approach, which they WILL do, if he is indicating it's ok.

The human in the round pen will do something similar. They will move the horse out/away when they decide to, then remove the "drive away" and if the horse wants to be in accepted by the "dominant one", it will turn and face you and hesitate fore a bit, assessing whether or not by your body language you are still in driving away mode, or are in accepting mode. 

So, driving the horse around and around until it's exhausted is not much like natural herd dynamics, from my point of view. but, moveing the horse away and drawing it back are amplified imitations of the dominant horse's behavior.


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## countof3 (Jul 16, 2012)

Oh I just watched several videos on this, I'm so excited, can't wait to do this


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> The human in the round pen will do something similar. They will move the horse out/away when they decide to, then remove the "drive away" and if the horse wants to be in accepted by the "dominant one", it will turn and face you and hesitate fore a bit, assessing whether or not by your body language you are still in driving away mode, or are in accepting mode.


I like the way you explain that Tiny. A few big problems I see, even with people working with this basic mindset about it is a) they keep 'driving' the horse when it's already moving away, b) they don't understand the difference between dominance and leadership & don't know which one they want to be, or are being, and the biggest c) many(most?) horses don't look upon their owners in the same light as they'd see a herd leader & don't WANT to 'come in & be accepted'. Especially when someone does this to an as yet untrusting horse. They often also lable the lack of desire as 'disrespect' or some such too. The best I think most acheive is in getting the horse to follow them by negatively reinforcing(removal of pressure) this.


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## wranglerman (Jun 15, 2012)

BlooBabe said:


> The idea of join up is: if the horse doesn't do what I want then I'm going to make him work harder. It teaches a horse to listen because if they don’t they’re going to have to do more work than the initially would have if they’d just done what you’d asked in the first place. Some people say it builds a bond but really the horse learns that whatever you want them to do is easier than not doing it or doing what they want. For example, I want the horse to pay attention to me and stand by my shoulder but it won’t so I’m going to make it do work until it does, then when it does what I want I’ll reward it by letting it stop working. doesn't scream natural to me.
> 
> It won’t work if the horse doesn’t know what you’re asking it. So if you want a horse to move a certain part of its body a certain way with a single cue you have to put the horse in that position, give them the cue, then reward them. Then once they know the cue, if they don’t send them out to do work. Join up is a crack pot idea that gives people a superiority complex and makes them think they are being integrated into the herd as a dominant member. It does teach a horse to listen to you but it does that by teaching them your way is easier.
> The idea that it works to create a bond is crazy to me. If you’re going to use it be careful because you can teach a horse to resent you or try harder to prove they are the dominant one in the relationship. If it isn’t working then stop trying. Horses are bigger and stronger than their human counterparts and if you’re not paying attention to what’s working or not you’re going to get hurt.


Another non believer, its not about "work".

If you have a 2yr old horse that has been part of the herd of twenty since being weaned then you want to take X-rays and teach him to lead nicely so that if the client comes the horse will be mannered and the vet will still be alive after taking the pictures, how will you do it? Hard work and perseverance? Risky and sometimes dangerous with young horses but I get them into the school then join up, three sessions is enough to teach them manners and frequent handling, within 3 days of commencing I can have my next to wild horse groomed and bathed, walking in hand and behaving correctly using join up, how long would it take you?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Is it possible it's the way you're doing it & the skill & understanding you bring, rather than it being all credit to the round pen & 'join up'? I'm just saying it's not a magic bullet and it does not work *in/for the manner many believe*.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

loosie said:


> Is it possible it's the way you're doing it & the skill & understanding you bring, rather than it being all credit to the round pen & 'join up'? I'm just saying it's not a magic bullet and it does not work *in/for the manner many believe*.


Hear, hear!

It would be interesting to know, of the total time spent handling the horses, what time in minutes and as a percentage was the join-up, compared to the time spent installing the leading respones, teaching the horse to stand still, habituating the horse to its body being touched etc etc. 

To date, (to my knowledge), no one has systematically compared differences between training outcomes where the only thing that changes is the join-up component. All the research so far has compared the whole system with some other system, making it almost impossible to determine if its the chasing/not chasing bit that's critical, or all the other careful, considerate handling of the horse that comes after it. 

My own training approach doesn't include the chasing bit, but does use the careful/considerate bits and I get results I feel are analgous to what I see in join-up trained horses. However this isn't scientific! All I can claim is that _my _horses can be kindly and sympathetically trained without using chasing. :?


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