# Horse still lame, what to try next?



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cannot possibly give you any more than 'call the vet' from that info. I do appreciate that's not always possible, depending where you are/how far you'd have to haul, but I'd be getting some diagnostics done if at all possible. Depending what's wrong, the bute may be helping or hindering. I would not be riding her, especially not buting her for it either. 

If you could post some pics, maybe a vid, more info... if you think fetlocks, hoof pics may help. See link in signature below for hoof pics needed.


----------



## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

With front leg lameness the head bob comes when the sore leg hits the ground. With hind leg lameness the head bob comes when the sound leg hits the ground. 

Wind puffs rarely are a source of lameness. Almost never. 

I suspect a front leg and I suspect a tendon injury. Can you post a video of her trotting lame?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

First of all -- please throw out the BUTE. It does not do anything but make the horse feel less pain and therefore it will still 'use' the leg which makes it worse. Do you think and Aspirin can cure a torn ligament? That is how much good BUTE can do.

How far are you from Canovanas, Puerto Rico? There is a race track there so there will be good Vets specializing in leg problems. That would be your best bet. Some hind limb lamenesses take a year of turn-out for a horse to get over and some are permanent. 

If you stop the Bute, you can go out early in the morning and see if any part of the hind leg feels 'hot' to the touch. Early in the morning, all of his legs should feel cold to the touch. If there is no detectable warm area, it is probably deep in his hip muscles. I have one now that has pulled a hip muscle. She has had two deep injections of an internal blister (think 6 inch long needle) and may require more but is already much better. I took her to a hind limb specialist that has performance horses brought to him from all over the US and even Canada.

Post a video of this horse walking in a straight line past the camera and away from the camera. I will take a look at it, but you might as well plan on a trip to a leg Vet.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks all for the meaningful input - 

I did give her a bute last night (I thought that they were good for reducing inflammation, no? she's rather lazy so she doesn't "push" herself if she's feeling better. But I did not bute this morning and I'll skip it until further instruction)

Cherie: I am about a 4 hour drive from Canovanas and I do not have a trailer. If this really turns out to be something major I would certainly consider doing what I need to to go over to that side to see if I could find a better vet. The vets on our side of the island are small animal vets that "will" "sometimes" come out to look at horses. 

Elana: That is great rule of thumb, thank you. I did initially think front leg, but then I seemed to remember a rule that if you "saw" the lameness in the front the source was the opposite back. 

I will take some images and some videos today if possible. 

I'm aware that "windpuffs" are rarely a source of lameness, but perhaps what I'm seeing as "windpuffs" may be synnovial swelling around a tendon - I guess that was my point.


----------



## Horsesaremylife150 (Feb 4, 2015)

Following. Hope everything works out for you and your horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

PixiTrix said:


> I did give her a bute last night (I thought that they were good for reducing inflammation, no? she's rather lazy so she doesn't "push" herself if she's feeling better. But I did not bute this morning and I'll skip it until further instruction)


But the point is that bute will mask pain, and if the horse has an injury that should be on stall rest, the horse is going to keep moving (because it doesn't feel the pain anymore) and it is going to prevent the injury from healing (if it's an injury that needs stall rest and no movement). Bute doesn't heal injuries. It just covers up the pain.

Bute can also very easily cause ulcers and other gastric problems. When you give bute, you should always also give GastroGuard or something to that effect to help prevent any stomach upset. 

Since you don't know the cause of the injury, I wouldn't give anything to the horse until you know what it is. Your horse has been lame for over 3 weeks. In my opinion, it's time to call the vet. 

If you trot a horse in a circle, remember with head bobs that "down is sound". So when the horse's head goes down in the bob, then the two legs that are contacting the ground at that time are probably fine. But you cannot rule out if it is the front leg or the back leg based on that. You need to do flexion testing and possibly nerve blocking to help further differentiate which leg is the problem. 

And even at that, for example, horses can be lame in BOTH front feet and then it's even more difficult to tell. 

Subtle lameness is tough to get a good diagnosis. Is there any vet that is GOOD that you can get to?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm afraid that you have far too many 'ifs, buts and maybe's' going on for anyone to know what is actually wrong with the horse.
Some videos would help a lot
If you can't see any obvious sign of injury then I would keep her fairly confined in a stable or a corral so she can't make things worse. 
Bute has its uses as an anti inflammatory but if you use it to mask pain in a way that encourages the horse to move around more than it should then its no help at all
Do you maybe have a good farrier near to you - not as good vet I know but could rule out a lot of the foot related causes?


----------



## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

video of the horse walking and trotting in straight lines and in a circle both ways will help determine which leg is actually lame. 
That said do NOt do furazone sweats. 
In fact I will not have Furazone in my barn, at all. Many horses (and people )are very skin-sensitive to that product and it can cause an extreme swelling reaction on the leg especially if under a wrap. If you want to wrap and sweat a leg, I would recommend plain glycerine, or or just a good hand rub with alcohol then a support standing wrap. IF you know how to do a standing wrap properly it will not hurt. But rally I hate to be part of the broken record, the vet should see it to help find where the pain is coming from. If the horse pulled a little ligament inside the foot or up in the leg, it may take months of total rest to heal. 
As for the beach, next time be sure the tide is out so the horses are kept mostly on the wet packed sand near the water's edge, it is easier on the legs than the deep dry stuff.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks again, I understand points about the bute, always careful not to abuse it and aware of the stomach issue potential. I'm going to call a few friends that might be able to find a vet a little closer. Was hoping for video tonight but it's too dark, hopefully tomorrow. Will keep you posted-


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Well I just had a bad feeling tonight so I went out a moment ago in the dark to check the horses and found her 100% lame on her back left leg. She was fine at feeding this morning but she is now putting zero weight on the leg. This is the leg I suspected yesterday. Here are the best pics I could get in the dark tonight. I'm making some calls to see who I can out tomorrow to check it. Obviously this is a wait no longer type of situation now....


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Can only attach one at a time for some reason


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Another


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Just to clarify because I've been getting some really rude personal messages. This horse hasn't had alone on her back in about a week and a half with the exception of one 7year old walking in circles for about 20 minutes (1 time) . She's had 1 bute tab in the last two weeks. Just want to clarify that. Thanks


----------



## Luv equins (Oct 10, 2014)

The bute will just make it worse!


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

There are two things you need to do and you don't need a Vet for either one.

1) Get a thermometer if you do not already have one. Take her temperature Am and PM every day. Without seeing her walk or examining her, I suspect you could have a hoof abscess. This will usually elevate a temperature slightly as it is an infection.

2) Go out early in the morning and check the temperature of her hooves, all up and down both hind legs. You can almost always pinpoint any sore, infected or inflamed area early in the morning. I have gone out with a flashlight before dawn to check a horse's feet and legs many, many times. 

A warm hoof is almost always a hoof abscess. Abscesses are probably the main reason that horses go 3 legged lame over night. They can be acute and show up as severe lameness in a day or two or can cause chronic lameness for several weeks before they decide to 'mature' and break. If she is walking with only the tip of her toe on the ground, it is usually an abscess toward the back of the hoof. 

You never want to use antibiotics or Bute if you suspect a hoof abscess. These drugs only slow down the maturation of an abscess and make the horse lame for a longer period of time.

You do not want to use any counter-irritant, liniment or 'rub' before you know what is actually wrong. Sometimes it is the wrong thing to do and it always confuses the diagnosis at it also causes heat that can be mistaken for the problem when it is only the liniment creating it.

Again, I sound like a broken record, but everyone should have a good thermometer handy at all times. If a horse has anything wrong from a snotty nose to a cough to a lameness, you need to track its temperature.

If you only have one or two horses, you should know what those horses' vital signs are when they are resting and well. Know their usual temperature, heart rate and how often they normally breathe per minute. Then, if you suspect pain from colic or a sickness, you know immediately if something is really wrong. If you call a Vet, you will be able to tell him your horse's vital signs and other pertinent information like the color of his gums and how quickly pressure on his gums turns from a white spot back to pink. Know what purple gums look like. Know how to check a horse's digital pulse in his lower leg.

There is no excuse for anyone to be an uninformed horse owner and there is no reason for anyone to call a Vet without this information to give him. Knowing these things can either save a horse's life or save a $500.00 Vet bill.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Luv equins said:


> The bute will just make it worse!


I am aware. I am not buting right now. thank you


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Also, if you are getting rude personal messages, please report them to us. In the lower left hand corner of every post is an exclamation mark (!) in a square box. Hit it and a page comes up that lets you report that post. On PMs there is the same little box and ! at the top that you can use to report a private message. Cheri


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Cherie said:


> There are two things you need to do and you don't need a Vet for either one.
> 
> 1) Get a thermometer if you do not already have one. Take her temperature Am and PM every day. Without seeing her walk or examining her, I suspect you could have a hoof abscess. This will usually elevate a temperature slightly as it is an infection.
> 
> ...


Thanks Cherie, I do have a thermometer. I don't have her normal resting temp. (bad, I know, lesson learned) But I will get temp tonight and tomorrow. Her legs and hoof don't feel hot/warm but an abcess would be a best case scenario at this point. Hopefully I can get a vet of some sort out tomorrow. thanks,


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You can't tell a warm foot except very early in the morning. Very early, a horse that has just been standing around will have ice cold legs and feet, even in the summer time. So, you go out very early and you feel up and down both front legs and then you feel up and down both hind ones -- including the feet. I have almost always been able to find an abscess that way and been able to tell what part of the hoof it was in. 

I have also usually found it better to let them break naturally on the hair line or at the bulb of the heel than to dig them out. They heal more quickly and you do not have a big hole to protect. If I know for sure that I have an abscess to wait on, I will usually soak it in hot Epsom Salts to help it break more quickly.

Good luck with her.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherie, are you saying that you suspect an abcess, even after seeing the shape and size of the fetlock in that photo? I know that the aforesaid windpuffs might account for part of that, but it does look really odd to me.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Those pics aren't all that helpful. (& rotating them the right way would help too). It appears the fetlock might be swollen(& you say it is anyway), but could be the angle of the pics & way she's standing. & does she always cock that leg? Good hoof pics may help discover more, as it appears they could be long & contracted, but again, can't be sure with those angles. If hooves are compromised, that could be the source of fetlock strain.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

When a horse gets 3 legged lame I ALWAYS suspect an abscess. It is just that over 90% of the time. That means that 10% of the time it is not. 

Those big ugly wind-puffs hardly ever cause lameness. I was more concerned about the 'thick' look of the stifle area. But, checking for heat early in the morning is the most efficient and by far the cheapest way to sort it out. If there is an abscess in a hoof, the leg above it will often be swollen, so you still have to see if the hoof is warm. Heat goes up and not down.

I had a trainer (riding and showing my horse) tell me that my horse was 'off' in his right front leg. He wanted my OK to take the horse to a big equine clinic in Pilot Point Texas to be blocked and x-rayed. I asked if he had had the farrier use hoof testors on him. He said he had the farrier found nothing. The bill would be over $1000.00 just for the diagnosis if the horse went to big equine clinic.

I told him to wait and that I would haul the horse down there (instead of his assistant) if I could not figure out what was wrong. I was at his barn the next morning at 6 AM before the Mexicans fed. I found the right front hoof warm and took the horse home. An abscess popped on his coronet about a week later. I never took him back. That was the last time I tried to get someone to show a horse for me after my back got bad enough that I could not show my own horses. 

I'll take an early morning check over hoof testers, x-rays and nerve blocks every time.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks for the tips of the early morning check Cherie, I will do that tomorrow. 

Loosie, no that foot is not normally cocked, that is the foot she will not bear weight on.

I called my farrier (please remember this is more of a cowboy here) and he said he would come out tonight so we just got done looking at her together. He investigated the hoof really thoroughly and is pretty convinced it's not an abscess. I will post another pic with weight on the hoof and him pointing to the swollen area. His suggestion was a dexamethazone injection & to treat with the dex for a few days. I decided to hold off until I could get a vet out. I called my father who is a vet and he said no to the dex. He suggested banamine without having much info. Farrier said banamine is hard to get.

Tomorrow a friend has a good trainer coming to see his horses so he is going to check her out as well. Until I can get a vet here that is the best I can do. I have her confined for the night. 

Sorry the pics keep rotating I am doing a mobile upload so maybe that is why...


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

So I followed Cherie's advice and went out first thing this morning to check for heat. All legs were cold but the affected back left was warm from about the stifle down.

This most interesting thing I found though is when I palpitated around the stifle up towards the hip, it was the first time I got a noticeable reaction- pressure about 6 inches below the hip bone causes her to jerk her leg up right away. Cherie you have eagle eyes because you noticed the thick looking stifle which have me the idea to palpatate the area. I immediately thought it was hoof/fetlock but now I think the issue may be higher up. 

Some research returns information about patellar luxation which looks awfully similar to what she is doing, except for the locking sound. I found some videos of this condition, I am going to take a video of her movement and compare. 

Hopefully I can get more information today.

Thanks


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

That area on your mare bothered me more than anything else I saw. It is usually a deep muscle / ligament injury that makes them sore there. You can tell the exact spot by having someone pull on their tail to make them stand on it and then pushing your finger-tips into the side of theri hip from top to bottom and left to right. They will tell you exactly where the injury is. It sounds like you may have already found it.

When a muscle or muscles in that area are injured, I have never seen them regain soundness without having the the area injected with a deep muscle injection that my Vet calls an 'internal blister'. He has injected several horses for me over the years and every one of them has regained complete soundness including one I turned out for 1 year and she still went lame when I tried to ride her. Other Vets said she was crippled and would never be sound. She became completely sound after 3 injections.

I have one now that has been injected twice and may need another or more. She is much better, but she is a very good horse and I do not want her going lame when we go back to using her. This Vet has barrel horses and roping horses brought to him from all across the US and Canada. I have usually diagnosed them when I bring them to him. 

Good luch with your. It is not an easy fix.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Here is a short video of where she reacts to the pressure, it's not long but it's the best angle of where I think the the pain is. 

Cherie you may be spot on about the internal blister, I was reading about that related treatment. Now....if only I can find someone willing to do it (if we are correct about injury). I still have a call into a couple vets hoping someone will come today.

She has always had a really weak hind end which sounds like could attribute to (or be a result of) his issue. Even in consistent hill work (we have LoTs), she has trouble building muscle back there.

I'll have to link to videos:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There was a very definite pain reaction on that one spot on that video you've put up
One thing to remember though is that pain in one place that causes a horse to move unnaturally for even a short length of time will gradually have a 'domino effect' and result in pain from muscle and joint stiffness in other areas that aren't being used correctly


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Vet can't come till maybe afternoon (hopefully) - based on what I told her & the videos she recommended dexamethazone and banamine which is what the local trainer recommended as well (he came by this morning to check her). My dad strongly recommends agains the dex and said definitely not to do both together. :/ we shall see I supposse....


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Unless you can stable the horse or confine her in some way I would be nervous about using either in case she's got an injury that's going to be made worse by too much movement
The Dex is a steroid so use with extreme caution if there's the slightest chance your horse has IR, Cushings or is prone to laminitis


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Unless you can stable the horse or confine her in some way I would be nervous about using either in case she's got an injury that's going to be made worse by too much movement
> The Dex is a steroid so use with extreme caution if there's the slightest chance your horse has IR, Cushings or is prone to laminitis


I know, I'm worried about the dex too and I've been cautioned about the combo causing ulcers so I'm trying to track down some gastroguard. 

I can keep her confined in a small feeding pen. It's not covered though so I don't like keeping her there all day for lack of shade but I can figure something out. 

The vet couldn't make it today but she gave dosage and we had the trainer do the dex and the banamine. After a few hours she was markedly better. Then just have instructions to keep her quiet and wait and see for a few days.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have stayed away from Dex unless it was applied topically to an injury with DMSO. This one is too deep for that to be effective. For me, the negatives outweigh the possible positive results by about 10 to 1. 

The improved comfort is only because Banamine is a pain killer just like Bute. It is applying another Aspirin type treatment -- again with more negatives than positives. 

If this mare is really as sore, deep in her hip like the video showed, she is going to need a good lameness Vet. Like I've said, personally, I have ONLY found deep internal injections to bring about soundness with an injury like this one. Cheri


----------



## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

I would NOT administer dex unless you have a have a definitive diagnosis of something that requires it. 
Dex runs a small risk of causing laminitis in some horses, which is not worth it. 

Is she a Peruvian Paso? She looks like some kind of Paso. If so, they are susceptible to developing DSLD, a suspensory ligament degeneration that shows up in the hind legs first. There would be chronic subtle lameness and swelling in the area you pointed to above the fetlock, in the lower branches of the suspensory ligament just above where they connect to the sesamoid bones at the back of the fetlock. 
But the history points more toward a foot abscess, with subtle lameness for a day or two then sudden non weight bearing. 
Hoof abscess will cause a definite increased digital pulse, but a damaged suspensory ligament would not, if that helps.


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Patty Stiller said:


> I would NOT administer dex unless you have a have a definitive diagnosis of something that requires it.
> Dex runs a small risk of causing laminitis in some horses, which is not worth it.
> 
> Is she a Peruvian Paso? She looks like some kind of Paso. If so, they are susceptible to developing DSLD, a suspensory ligament degeneration that shows up in the hind legs first. There would be chronic subtle lameness and swelling in the area you pointed to above the fetlock, in the lower branches of the suspensory ligament just above where they connect to the sesamoid bones at the back of the fetlock.
> ...


She is a Puerto Rican paso fino, I'm not sure if the have the same tendencies for dsld but I will research it. Still not sign of abscess, she is now weight bearing again. Resting her until further notice...


----------



## PixiTrix (Sep 11, 2013)

Cherie said:


> I have stayed away from Dex unless it was applied topically to an injury with DMSO. This one is too deep for that to be effective. For me, the negatives outweigh the possible positive results by about 10 to 1.
> 
> The improved comfort is only because Banamine is a pain killer just like Bute. It is applying another Aspirin type treatment -- again with more negatives than positives.
> 
> If this mare is really as sore, deep in her hip like the video showed, she is going to need a good lameness Vet. Like I've said, personally, I have ONLY found deep internal injections to bring about soundness with an injury like this one. Cheri


 A friend found a racetrack vet - I am holding tight for now but we'll see what happens and maybe I can get her out there or him out here. I'm sure he'd be familiar with the internal blister also. 8 hour round trip house call....that should be cheap  (it's worth it I'm just joking)


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Keep us posted.


----------

