# Narrow seat/twist western saddles



## SHRIDER85 (Oct 9, 2020)

90% of my riding is trail or ditch riding, which I do in an all purpose English saddle that has a fairly flat seat and a narrow twist. It's an older used saddle in not great condition and no rings or ties for gear on the trail. 

I tend to trot for about 40% of my riding. I have a short backed horse with a bouncy trot so I post 99% of the time I am troting. I have an older western saddle but its quiet wide at the front of the seat and I struggle to find my balance when posting.

I'd really like a western saddle that has a similar seat to my English saddle and I'm really struggling to know what to look for in saddle descriptions. 

I see lots of "lady" advertised saddle but I'm not sure if they are just lighter or have a narrow fork/twist. 

I had a dressage saddle that had a high rise to the pommel and I always felt like I was rubbing against it. 

Unfortunately I live in a rural area without any large saddle shops around to go sit in a bunch of saddles. Im also not prepared financially to get a fully custom saddle built. I'd like to know what to look for in a used saddle. 

Thank you for the help!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My Abetta saddle ($400 new) has a very English feel to it. The stirrups are hung too far back (IMHO - I like forward stirrups) and it is physically much smaller than the average western saddle. The black western is an Abetta & the English saddle is a Bates Caprilli CC, compared with a Circle Y:








My leather saddle on the same pad as the Abetta below it:

















While I prefer a forward hung stirrup, I do 90% of my riding in the Abetta.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

My riding instructor has a "lady's" saddle...and there is a difference.
I asked and she told me hers is a different tree under it period.
Her saddle is either a older Circle Y or Billy Cook, about 30 years old I think...think its a "Y"...

Go try a High Horse saddle with a equitation seat to it, semi bars and see if that is more comfy..
And a Circle Y Park & Trail saddle also has the near same feel to me in narrower, don't know about other brands anymore.
P & T saddles will be older saddles as they were not being made last I knew, but there are hundreds around for sale. 

Otherwise, go find and sit in a saddle cut for the female anatomy and see if it helps.
I also found different manufacturers trees are also cut different and that is a ouch or comfort to me.
Cutting and roping saddles I think have one of the larger width trees...know it hurts to sit in many of them for any time, the pull to my groin hurts.
Equitation, reining, sorting, dressage{western} seem to be cut narrower and I've not sat in enough barrel saddles to make that comment but have to think it might be narrower just because more females do barrels than males...
Also look for a saddle with the "close-contact" skirt cut-outs that gets you closer and not so spread and pulling to hip or groin...
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:..


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## SHRIDER85 (Oct 9, 2020)

bsms said:


> My Abetta saddle ($400 new) has a very English feel to it. The stirrups are hung too far back (IMHO - I like forward stirrups) and it is physically much smaller than the average western saddle. The black western is an Abetta & the English saddle is a Bates Caprilli CC, compared with a Circle Y:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would you say this (circled) part of the saddle is narrow and low?

I find I have three points of contact to the seat, and if the circled part is wide or has a high slope I am against it awkwardly and not comfortable when I rode.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have a Dale Chavez Western Equitation style (Pleasure) saddle that I had custom made. It has a narrow twist and it seems that most of his flatter, pleasure saddles have the same. My saddle is so comfortable, I can ride in it for hours and never get sore.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The feel between the thighs of a western saddle is not driven by the tree, but by the "ground". That is the fiberglass & leather built up part above the tree.

"Saddle makers are often asked what a person should look for in a comfortable saddle. Though it is a fair question, a simple answer is tough to come by. The key lies in what is called the ground seat."

https://caryschwarz.com/the-ground-seat/










https://www.freckerssaddlery.com/making_saddle.php

It is very hard to see variations in a picture (I've TRIED but failed to capture it before) and really the only way to KNOW if the "ground" fits your goals is to sit on it and feel. The ground on our Circle Y saddle puts the leg into a certain position. I hate it. My daughter loves it. It isn't "twist" but a deliberate part added to the tree meant to support the rider in a certain position.

FWIW, I consider the Abetta to have a narrow, low rise ground. Add in the small tree and I find it very comfortable to ride....except I'd like the stirrups hung further forward. The Abetta has the most "English" feel of any western saddle I've sat in.

Another comparison, this one of my Abetta versus the good leather saddle I sometimes use:










One drawback to the Abetta. It has a large D-ring that can hinder the free movement of the stirrups leathers (made of nylon) forward. I added a leather strap to prevent the front edge of the nylon leathers from snagging on the D-ring:










Another drawback:* It doesn't have many places to tie things!*


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

bsms said:


> The feel between the thighs of a western saddle is not driven by the tree, but by the "ground". That is the fiberglass & leather built up part above the tree.
> 
> "Saddle makers are often asked what a person should look for in a comfortable saddle. Though it is a fair question, a simple answer is tough to come by. The key lies in what is called the ground seat."


I also prefer a more narrow twist and discovered suspended seat saddles for me. So instead of sitting in/on a ground seat, you are sort-of sitting in a hammock... Some people hate it, for me it was the best thing ever. When my barn owner (who prefers riding bareback, otherwise rides in an English saddle) tried it out, she was all gushy how close you feel to the horse and how much it reminds her of bareback...
It may be worth a try.


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## SHRIDER85 (Oct 9, 2020)

bsms said:


> The feel between the thighs of a western saddle is not driven by the tree, but by the "ground". That is the fiberglass & leather built up part above the tree.
> ....
> It is very hard to see variations in a picture (I've TRIED but failed to capture it before) and really the only way to KNOW if the "ground" fits your goals is to sit on it and feel. The ground on our Circle Y saddle puts the leg into a certain position. I hate it. My daughter loves it. It isn't "twist" but a deliberate part added to the tree meant to support the rider in a certain position.
> 
> FWIW, I consider the Abetta to have a narrow, low rise ground. Add in the small tree and I find it very comfortable to ride....except I'd like the stirrups hung further forward. The Abetta has the most "English" feel of any western saddle I've sat in.


I've looked up Abetta and apparently they are no longer making saddles. 

What style of circle Y saddle does your daughter like? 

When I look into the differences in pelvis between men and women I feel like I'm so typically female example. In my legs turn out and are pushed forward (I have very long thighs) and I feel like I'm rubbing the front of the saddle with my pelvis on every stride. 

I would love to fall into $$ to get a custom saddle.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

McCall saddlery makes a "Lady" version of several of their popular saddles. The seat is narrower, they tend to be a bit lighter depending on the model (around 35lbs) and as far as a bigger brand goes they have really great seats in general. 

They are more in the $3K range brand new, but if you shop around on facebook and ranchworldads you can find them for $1500-$2500 used.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SHRIDER85 said:


> I've looked up Abetta and apparently they are no longer making saddles.
> 
> What style of circle Y saddle does your daughter like?....


Wow! Didn't know that. Wonder if it is COVID-temporary or permanent?

My daughter's is a used Circle Y equitation saddle from 1990-ish. Was $450 on Craigslist. Will probably still be functional when I die. An old picture of my daughter using it when I was still using Australian saddles:










My wife with the same saddle:










The angle of their thigh is driven by the shape of the saddle. I cannot capture it in a picture but it is like a groove that places the thigh at that angle. I like a steeper angle to my leg and that is why I don't like it. 










Guess the good news is that my Abetta may outlast me too! I will say the old Circle Y is easy to stay on when a horse spooks and our horses like it too.


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## twhvlr (Jul 5, 2017)

I don’t fully understand the twist/seat issue so I went searching for some explanation. Some very interesting things written on another forum but especially this article and video. Still don’t understand fully but now I can somewhat see why I love my M&W trooper saddle so much over the western saddles that I’ve had access to.
https://equineink.com/2010/10/29/saddle-fitting-for-women/


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## SHRIDER85 (Oct 9, 2020)

twhvlr said:


> I don’t fully understand the twist/seat issue so I went searching for some explanation. Some very interesting things written on another forum but especially this article and video. Still don’t understand fully but now I can somewhat see why I love my M&W trooper saddle so much over the western saddles that I’ve had access to.
> https://equineink.com/2010/10/29/saddle-fitting-for-women/


I've been reading about this and really just looking for western saddles that address this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't believe the websites selling saddles supposedly fitting women. For one thing, I suspect the large majority of saddles sold already go to women. If certain style of saddle fit women better, it would be a best seller! 

More importantly, at least with western saddles, I've concluded a rider should be able to adapt to just about anything. I dislike how far BACK the stirrups are hung on my Abetta, but it remains my favorite saddle. I ought to be able to adapt to a wide variety of western saddles. I liked the Clinton Anderson saddle I had - didn't fit my horse but she actually liked it too. It just couldn't be counted on to stay on her back when she spooked:

My first emergency dismount, from Mia...while at a full stop!

I had a chance to herd sheep a few years back....provided I didn't mind putting my 180 lbs into a 13" saddle! :eek_color: But after an hour...it wasn't bad.

I like a steeper thigh when riding but I'll admit it doesn't seem to matter much to my horse. I'm very fond of my little Abetta, but....I started riding at 50 and tend to overthink everything. I worry about tweaking my position and fuss over stirrup length, etc - but in truth, my horse doesn't care. Won't speak to English riding, but western seems to be one where you can forget the rules and just ride - and your horse will do fine. If Bandit knew how much I worried about my position and technique, he'd laugh himself silly.

I like the video below. Watching her in slow motion, she breaks all sorts of rules I've found in books - while winning 4 world championships on a horse I couldn't ride across a parking lot....


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

bsms said:


> Wow! Didn't know that. Wonder if it is COVID-temporary or permanent?


Permanent, I'm afraid.


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## SHRIDER85 (Oct 9, 2020)

bsms said:


> I don't believe the websites selling saddles supposedly fitting women. For one thing, I suspect the large majority of saddles sold already go to women. If certain style of saddle fit women better, it would be a best seller!
> 
> More importantly, at least with western saddles, I've concluded a rider should be able to adapt to just about anything. I dislike how far BACK the stirrups are hung on my Abetta, but it remains my favorite saddle. I ought to be able to adapt to a wide variety of western saddles. I liked the Clinton Anderson saddle I had - didn't fit my horse but she actually liked it too. It just couldn't be counted on to stay on her back when she spooked:


This is why I asked for peoples options on saddles. I guess maybe I should have specified womens opinions. Women and men 100% have different pelvis structure and associated leg and musculature differences. I have a long thigh, even when taking lessons a few years back the instructor told me the saddle didn't fit me right (put me in a chair seat) but it was good enough, we tried about 5 different saddles she had. Some women may be closer to some men etc. But in general yes there are differences.

As a women I would say I find my hips hurt when posting on most western saddles. And I don't feel secure at the lope. I also feel like I'm humping the front of a saddle that has a steep slope to the swells/horn or twist pommel(english). I also end up in a chair seat. Even when I was taking lessons. 

Maybe if I had ridden western as a teenager/when I learned to ride I would have adjusted my seat to compensate for these things. But now I'm 35 and I just want a comfortable western saddle that fits the body I have. Let's my legs hang freely down and let's me post and lope securely and comfortablely.

I may have to make a trip to another province with large western stores so I can go sit in 40 different saddles to find one that suits me.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

SHRIDER85 said:


> I may have to make a trip to another province with large western stores so I can go sit in 40 different saddles to find one that suits me.


If you have the time and inclination - that would be the best idea!

And @bsms I disagree about having to adapt to just any saddle, especially Western ones. I have ridden Western saddles that were working 100% against me, even though in theory they fit.
Or I have an old Circle Y that I love. Used to be the most comfortable thing I could imagine to sit in... Then I had children - despite getting back to the same size and all, that saddle feels now so uncomfortable, that I want to get out of it as soon as I can...


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

SHRIDER85 said:


> Would you say this (circled) part of the saddle is narrow and low?
> 
> I find I have three points of contact to the seat, and if the circled part is wide or has a high slope I am against it awkwardly and not comfortable when I rode.


That is the rise & twist in that location. 
If the rise is too "quick" starts too soon, it can cause you to whack your bits.
For me, a 17" dressage T4 is perfect, but a 17" dressage wintec has too quick a rise. 
In western, its usually mentioned as a flatter seat or rise. Some claim it helps put you on your pockets, I think it just gets in the way and takes up valuable space.
In western, I've read the twist is also underneath, the bars. How they come in and flair out to fit the horse. So you'll have to specify if talking to a seller.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

bsms said:


> Wow! Didn't know that. Wonder if it is COVID-temporary or permanent?
> 
> My daughter's is a used Circle Y equitation saddle from 1990-ish. Was $450 on Craigslist. Will probably still be functional when I die. An old picture of my daughter using it when I was still using Australian saddles:
> 
> ...


Abetta uses Ralide trees and ralide.com went out of business.


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## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

Abetta did go out of business earlier this year. However there are still plenty of used saddles available from them for slightly inflated prices. I currently ride (and have ridden roughly 2,000 miles) in an Abetta Endurance saddle that I got for $60 at a used tack auction. My husband has put at least 1,000 miles on his saddle (same model just a 16 inch seat) that we got for $150 from a friend. If you're looking for places to tie things the endurance model is the one to get as there is many hooks and rings to attach saddle bags and other gear. 

OP I would look for a saddle geared towards endurance riders with the amount of trotting/riding you do. That can be a western saddle or even an English one as they are full of attachments to tie gear. A lot of endurance riders are female so most endurance style saddles have a narrower twist. Arabian Saddle Co, Reactor Panel, Throwgood, Wintec, and many more have English style endurance models and Synergist, Specialized, Abetta and many others have more western style saddles.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

bsms said:


> Watching her in slow motion, she breaks all sorts of rules I've found in books - while winning 4 world championships on a horse I couldn't ride across a parking lot....


That's a great video! She does break a ton of the "equitation rider's" rules, but she's not riding an eq test. What I really liked was watching how she keeps that horse right between her legs, and keeps her shoulders, core and butt dead center no matter at what angle she & the horse are running and even when she's star fishing and pedaling so hard it looks like she's going for the Tour de France. She'd fail an equitation class but her equitation for the sport is right on. 

And you're right, I'd have gotten left at the mouth to the alley when that horse powered off. Some things old folks just don't need to do, LOL!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If someone likes the dressage position, perhaps look for a western saddle intended for Western Pleasure? 








I like Australian saddles, but the company I bought mine from is now...out of business!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

That's mainly what I use my Chavez for, Western Dressage. I LOVE it. Puts me right where I need to be but because it's a pretty flat saddle (compared to ropers, reiners and cutters), I have to maintain my position on my own. It's also great for trails, I've gone for 8 hr. rides and still been able to walk when I got off. As stiff as I get in my back and hips, that's a BIG win.


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## tbmorgan38 (Dec 17, 2020)

Hello! I figured this issue out when my boyfriend and I rode in each other's saddle. He had a big broad Corriente Wade saddle that physically pained me to sit in. I have a narrow twist Circle Y Proven barrel saddle which I can ride all day in and not get the least bit sore. Yet he HATED it. The twist makes a huge difference in a man's comfort vs a woman's comfort. The old Circle Ys are a dime a dozen on ebay, Facebook marketplace, etc. You can usually score a used one for $600 or less. Mine is 20 years old and still in great shape. Sadly it no longer fits my beefcake of a horse, but in general, I find Circle Ys, and most barrel saddles, to be designed with a woman's anatomy in mind. Avoid hard seats, ropers, wades, cutters, etc. Those will be much wider in the twist.



https://www.statelinetack.com/item/circle-y-proven-rush-barrel-saddle-wide/E004377/


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