# Canter (Rider Critique)!



## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

Hey guys!

So I've been floating between horses Jan-April...

Here is a canter with a horse i find easier to sit: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZ5a7aqLJY

Here is the lesson horse at my new barn. I am about to start leasing at my new barn on a privately owned horse - but I find this lesson horse much more challenging to sit (bigger, athletic, got a good bounce to him) so I eventually want to come back and try again on him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgP0k8ZwJko


I think i need to flatten my back, shoulders back/chest open.. and I need to disconnect the hip movement from the top of my body more (I think?). 

One issue I wanted to confirm w/ you guys (although feel free to comment on anything) - is that (Re 2nd vid/ new Lesson horse) - i have contact, but because he's cantering with his neck extended - i have a tight reign with my arms completely extended at points. So if I put my shoulders back or lean back any - i pull on him and he stops. OR he pulls me forward, my shoulders go forward with it.... (better core!! ugh). and he lazy boy that he is, any pull back of the reigns and he's ready to break gait. he IS supposed to stop when i pull back, so he's being a good horse.. but i just have to show my intent w/ my legs more (and get him to listen to that - it's a part me being stronger and a part him not trying to get away with something and ignoring me).

I think some of the answer is to collect him more - drive him forward w/ my legs and pull him in (which I think the goal of collection would be to do that by giving him more of a slight bend to the inside?). of course i hear that collection also has to do with your seat and while I'm bouncing and finding a better seat on him - it may be hard to get him to do.

he IS a lazy horse - so he will try and use any pull back on the reins as an excuse to stop, so i really need to keep my leg strong. (and strong legs on this horse is much harder than smaller, less lazy horses).

Anyway... I will be starting a 6 month lease on a privately owned horse whose a good "in between" of these two horses I've showed you - but I told my barn i want to get back on this lesson guy after I've had some time and show myself I can do this better.  I want to be able to sit all sorts of horses in all their gaits.. so I'm only as good as the horse i do the worst on. 

p.s. instructor in 2nd vid was just happy in because this is his bad side and he didn't want to pick up the right lead... so we were working on THAT as well. yay multi-tasking... )


thanks everyone!


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## ridingwild (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks for sharing!

I think it would be good for you to strengthen your core. Your lower back hollows out in each stride, arching out. Getting that back to remain stable will make a big difference. It also looked like the saddle was a bit small in the first video, like it wasn't offering enough support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPO4IiAotW0

This is a video of a rider with a pretty good canter seat, for reference. (Assuming you ride hunter).

Pelvis work is great to enhance your seat. Remember not to "tip" and your seat will look fantastic in no time!


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

core exercises are something i think i know are coming, and am dreading actual 'work'.  Anything i do on a horse seems fun... sitting home doing sit ups and squats is isn't as fun  

but I am incredibly envious of the flat back look... so might be time to stop procrastinating. 

Thanks for your feedback! I book marked that video for inspiration!


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

did anyone else have any other thoughts? just more core work outs? lol.. (which p.s. I have started! 10-15 minutes each day I am you-tubing it up with some core workouts) 

I like that because it's something I can "control" - I just have to do them. 

But I'm sure there's more i could improve on? thoughts between 1st vid vs. 2nd?


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## DressageCowgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

My biggest suggestion would be to open up your chest (some instructors call this "shoulders back," but you can shove your shoulders back into an uncomfortable and tense position without opening up your chest, which is what you need to do, so I say "open up" instead.) Imagine pressing forward with your belly button. Envision an upside down triangle, with points at either shoulder and at the belly button. You want this triangle to be as TALL and as WIDE as possible. You are creeping slightly forward as your body automatically wants to go into the protective fetal position. I do it, too, especially when my horse rushes over a jump and then canters out crazy fast, but it doesn't help you at all--it's just those wicked automatic responses! Shut up, natural instincts!  Try and envision the belly button thing and the triangle thing--they both involve your core but without having to decide what you're supposed to do with those darn muscles!


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

thanks! that's a new visual I haven't heard yet. 

and re: the instinctual fetal position, lol - don't get me started on "things I know and don't do!" (or do the opposite)... I'm getting good at knowing theory, applying it to my own body while bouncing on a 1500 lb animal is still a complete challenge. but the more visuals we have in our head the more we can get there.

I get the impression this hurdle will be a hard one for me - but if I can break the habit and open up... I'll graduate to a new level.  Sometimes even while I'm thinking "boobs up and wide!" my instructor hits me with a chest open critique. ugh. challenging. and now I'm walking around my office with my "open chest" but even that is hard to maintain all the time. 

really appreciate your feedback!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

EVERYONE who wants to jump needs to be riding all gaits without stirrups. That loosens up your core. If there is an exercise that is non-riding that could help, it would be to learn belly-dancing.


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

I just switched barns and have not been stirrup-less as much as I used to. Even then, usually at the trot and only a few times at the canter. 

I will ask my instructor at the new barn to resume this kind of training as I agree it has so many benefits. I think I get the hip motion (usually) but I haven't gotten a good system for incorporating hip motion with the top half of my body being open and straight. I have to cut myself in half, lol.


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

I just got back from a lesson and i think we had a little breakthrough w/ two pointing the canter and then touching down the front part of my seat into the saddle.. i was able to keep a flat back when we did that - and we discussed maybe i was sitting too much on my butt and it was causing my whole body to absorb the bounce. "sit on your pee hole not your poop hole" was the joke (we're still trying to figure out a nicer way to say that!) just wanted to share that...!


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I think you did better on the second horse than the first, you seemed less messy to me in regards to your seat, even though you had more air on the second horse. 

What I learned, is you don't quite sit on your butt, but you don't quite sit directly on your pelvis, either. It's like a sweet spot between the two. This may sound too forward, but, how I know that I am sitting too forward on my pelvis is if I feel the front of my vagina by my clitoris. So I adjust my seat to sitting a little further back, instead of "perching." 

If you are able, I would highly suggest bare back riding. When you do that, it kind of forces you to have good balance, thus ensuring you can work (and relax) on getting those shoulders back so you don't look like you're ready to just fly off the horse in a butt rocket.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

something very simple, but with a very big impact, Keep Your Thumbs On Top!

the "piano" hands make the elbow go out, and makes it harder to have meainingful but independent contact with the mouth.

use your inside hand to get a bit of softening by the horse , so that you will feel him firmer on your outside rein. you don't want to be kind of "hauling" evenly on them like they handlebars.


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

ugh was I doing piano hands? I know better than that...! I swear!  but you know.. extreme multi tasking..

thanks Deschutes for the description - my trainer and i were trying to figure out how to describe where to sit down there without being crass... and were failing miserably. (which is where the pee hole/poop hole conversation came from ) I think sometimes your choices are use whatever vocabulary you can to get your point across or risk being vague and hoping someone magically figures it out. 

and glad you liked the second horse better - It means my new barn/trainers are doing their job I suppose... i just hate how long i've been cantering and how I'm still negotiating all this stuff. (Started cantering maybe a little over a year ago?). BUT.... we all go at our own pace, and the most important thing is to keep trying and getting good feedback. (it's part why i switched barns, i felt i wasn't getting better)

I'm riding again tomorrow am, will keep all your thoughts in my head. (yay new lease!). Thank you - appreciate all the different perspectives.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Just be glad you aren't OVER accentuating with your seat. It tends to make people look like they're humping the saddle. I have that habit, and it is very hard to break. 

Just try loosening those hips a bit more and sink down in that saddle. I sometimes trail ride with a lady who has a percheron cross, and believe me... they are very hard to sit! So, I understand your trouble with big movers. You just gotta really engage that core.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think we all do piano hands, a lot more than we realize. just becuase I can suggest you keep your thumbs on top does not mean I can do it all the time. we just keep at it, and make the time doing it right last longer and longer. you've got a very good start.


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

I swear I will let my thread die... but I just wanted to tell someone...  I got a "most improved Canter Position" acknowledgment from my trainer today!! yayyayayay.....! makes me feel like a kid again. and also like it's not all in vain.. lol.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Straighter back, work on your core strength, ditch the stirrups - without them you will have to sit deeper in the saddle, at present you're hovering above it which means you're using your stirrups to push up against rather than allowing your weight to sink down into your heels
This is a useful video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-fPXEtuhSc


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Keeping your back straight also entails "scooping" with your pelvis. Have you done any pelvic-tilt exercises before? It's the same thing, but lying down, and it really works on those pelvis-associated core muscles (core is not just abdominals!). Here is a Pilates link, where there is an especially good skeletal diagram of a pelvic tilt (scroll down the page a bit). Look how straight the back becomes when the pelvis is tilted! Pilates Basics - www.bodyiqpilates.com.au


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

I see the skeletal image showing the pelvic positions. what are the specific exercises? 

I thought I wanted to ride horses and now I'm starting a whole work out routine off the horse.  That was NEVER my thing.. but I'm very determined.

I did improve a bunch last week, but I still need to get stronger. I need to be able to summon lower length strength without involving my shoulders consistently.

still doing a 15-20 minute core work out which involves upper and lower ab work, but happy to add some pelvic thrusts in there!


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I do Roller Derby for my core workouts. : p

It's like getting a workout, without having to set aside time to "work out." Plus, it's fun even when you're sweating like a pig and your entire body is on fire.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Obviously improving body strength helps but so would changing your posture - I think you're trying so hard to sit up straight the end result is that your shoulders go too far back and you end up with a hollow back. Just try to relax a bit, let your shoulders slump slightly and go with the rocking action forward flow of the horse instead of the too upward thing you seem to be doing


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Take me with a grain of salt as I"ve ridden Western my whole life and only recently have been taking hunter/jumper lessons. 

I think you need to roll your pelvis more. You look "stiff" to me in your body and it's causing you to bounce excessively with the horse and it doesn't look natural. 

Also, your feet are too far forward. From this freeze-frame, if I removed the horse and ask you to stand on the ground on your own two feet, you'd fall over backwards. Your weight is not centered. 











Whereas in this picture I pulled from the internet, if we removed the horse from his riding position, he would easily be able to stand on his own two feet = BALANCE. 










And the pictures may not be a perfect representation of what I am trying to say, but I hope you get the idea. 

You need to be balanced over your own two feet.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Deschutes said:


> I think you did better on the second horse than the first, you seemed less messy to me in regards to your seat, even though you had more air on the second horse.
> 
> What I learned, is you don't quite sit on your butt, but you don't quite sit directly on your pelvis, either. It's like a sweet spot between the two. This may sound too forward, but, how I know that I am sitting too forward on my pelvis is if I feel the front of my vagina by my clitoris. So I adjust my seat to sitting a little further back, instead of "perching."
> 
> If you are able, I would highly suggest bare back riding. When you do that, it kind of forces you to have good balance, thus ensuring you can work (and relax) on getting those shoulders back so you don't look like you're ready to just fly off the horse in a butt rocket.


 I thought she looked better on 2nd horse also. I think if you lengthened your reins so your arms were not straight that may have helped you to sit better also.


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

hey guys... got a new video - did a little comp of my lesson this morning....!

please let me know your thoughts on my progress.. I was working on feeling the lead during this lesson.. ("I feel nothing" from a chorus line comes to mind.. but I'll get it) - so wasn't really working on collection or even track unfortunately, but just curious about my seat and position. 

36 sec clip of my lesson this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S-kLjKC2VI

here's a cute little april, may & september comp showing different stages of my progress (24 sec):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbJJVZVOyo


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

I can certainly see your hips/seat getting better! You were not with the horse's movement when you first started, but now you seem a lot more with the movement. I still think you need to work on your hands and shoulders. They both move way too much. Keep up the good work though, I certainly see improvement.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

MUCH better! I can see that Missy is a lot happier with you. actually , you and she are well matched. keep it up and she'll start giving you more as she feels less cautious due to a need to feel protective of her mouth and back. Great work!


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## Gossalyn (Sep 12, 2013)

oh yeah, still a billion things to work on.  my favorite quote of my instructor when she inherited me "well.. you're not a natural, so you're just going to have to be a good student."  (she's tough but amazing)

but I'm enjoying the journey so much, so I try not to stress if i can't perfect everything right away. I just do the best I can and put my all in it (most days anyway) - so long as I'm getting better, and so long as my poor horse can tolerate me  - it doesn't have to be overnight.


My hands probably move so much because at first I wasn't oscillating much, so I always wanted to make sure I was moving w/ her mouth. but I'm probably over doing it now. I'm hoping as my position gets better she relaxes more and it's not such a drive forward w/ her head because she'll get a little more collected. 

It's always a "finding a good middle ground" with following her head/body motion w/ the reins vs. not collapsing my body or bringing my shoulders forward.. which is the habit I've most been after myself on! (recent favorite quote from a friend on the shoulders: "are you riding a horse or washing the dishes??)

Thank you for your feedback.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This picture is from one of the earlier videos. I'll delete it in a few weeks.










There is no way to canter well in that position. Your thighs are too horizontal, and your back too vertical for a forward seat. Your center of gravity is way behind your stirrups.

This advice will come from an older style of forward seat, when folks rode it all the time and not just over jumps:










Also this (click on the picture to enlarge):



















These come from Riding and Schooling Horses: Riding And Schooling Horses: Harry D. Chamberlin, John Cudahy, Edwin M. Sumner: 9781163173299: Amazon.com: Books. It was written by the guy who wrote the last manual for the US Cavalry after spending 2 years studying at the French and Italian Cavalry schools.

In essence, you need to get your center of gravity over your stirrups. 

Practice riding in two point and develop a feel for your balance in that position. The fold at the "hinges" - the heels, knees and hips - until you have contact with the seat without disturbing the two point balance.

Second, I suggest dropping contact until you have a solid seat. I am not criticizing riding with contact, only riding with contact while bouncing. Use slack in the reins until your seat is solid enough to allow gentle contact.

Another book you might consider reading is VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship: Common sense horsemanship;: A distinct method of riding and schooling horses and of learning to ride, : Vladimir S Littauer: 9780668026024: Amazon.com: Books


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