# Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted



## jillybean19

*Giving the Clicker Meaning/Targeting*

The first thing you have to do when clicker training is to give the clicker meaning. Obviously, a simple click means absolutely nothing to the horse - and it may not mean anything to you. However, that can change for both of you if paired with something that IS meaningful.

The whole point of the clicker is to communicate "yes" to your horse when he does something correct (in traditional training, this "yes" is often a release of pressure). However, the horse won't know it means "yes" unless it's paired with something he wants. In most cases, horses will want food, so treats are often used with clicker training. It doesn't have to be treats, though - anything the horse will work for can be paired with the clicker to make it meaningful - maybe your horse likes a good rub on the neck? Treats are oftentimes the most convenient and motivating, though, and so from here on out I will describe clicker training like when it's used with treats (if you wanted to use something different and the horse does reliably work of it, just substitute your reward in place of when I say to give a treat).

So now, we have to teach the horse that a click means a treat is coming. There are two ways to do this. The first way is to "charge the clicker" - basically, you click and then treat, and then repeat. By doing this, the horse learns to pay attention to the clicker and learns that a click means that a treat will soon follow.

For me, I quickly lost attention and didn't really see any progress using this. Instead, I jumped to the next step to give the clicker meaning: targeting. Targeting is when the horse has to touch ("target") something. This is a very easy skill for the horse to learn, and, for me, it accomplishes teaching the horse that a click means a treat AND that he has to do something to earn it!

One principle of clicker training is that every behavior must be taught in baby steps. At first, the horse won't know what you want him to do. However, as soon as he does something in the general direction of your goal, he earns a click and treat. Sooner or later, the horse will figure out what it was he earned a click for and then do it over and over again. At this point, you ask for a little more before you click and treat (and repeat!), and eventually you've got the horse doing the behavior you set out to train in the first place.

So, back to targeting. I found the most interesting and odd thing that a horse would naturally want to investigate: A plastic water bottle covered in lime green duck tape. It looked funny, sounded funny, and smelled funny - perfect! I brought Flash into the round pen (you want somewhere small at first so they keep their attention on you) along with my bag of treats and clicker, then brought out the water bottle. I held it out with one hand a few inches in front of his nose. As soon as he reached forward to touch it, I clicked and treated. Of course, he didn't have any idea what had just happend and started looking everywhere for more treats - which earned him a firm smack on the nose. Pretty soon, he realized there weren't any free treats to be had, so he went back to investigating the odd-looking green object in my other hand. As soon as he touched it, I clicked and treated again! You could see the wheels turning in his head after two or three times, and within one session he was repeatedly nosing the water bottle and earning treats.

Now, Flash knew what the clicker was for - if he could play my game and figure out what I wanted, he could earn what he wanted. And it all was communicated through a simple click.


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## jillybean19

*Targeting (Continued) and Head Lowering*

The next step was to ask for a little more - I moved the water bottle. He already knew he had to touch it, so I didn't click and treat UNLESS he touched it. However, we took baby steps with how far I moved the water bottle. At first it was in front of him. Then a little lower. Then even lower. It took a few sessions, but I ultimately was able to set it on the ground.

This is often step #2 for clicker training: Teaching the horse to lower his head. This is our "calm down" cue. Asking a horse to lower his head gives us a "home base" for the horse to go back to paying attention and calming down if he gets excited. If you can do this on cue, it's like when your teacher held up her hand and said "Give me Five" and all the students got quiet and raised their hands. Once everything is orderly, you can move on with your students' attention - in this case, your student is your horse!

When doing this with the target, I practice by pointing at the target - ultimately, I want this pointing to become a cue for him to target anything I point to. *Teaching a horse to target anything on cue is useful for a number of reasons.* For training purposes, a number of things can be cued and shaped by first starting with a target. However, thinking about the "big picture", if Flash was afraid of something, I could ask him to target it. Given our previous training, he would know that this was a new challenge for him and just another training exercise, so, if I'm asking him to target something new and unfamiliar, it must be just another training exercise like all the other ones we've done.

Right now, targeting my green water bottle is more like a "brain break", a term teachers use for a quick and easy activity that allows students to relax but still be working for a few minutes while they take a break from more difficult activities. Flash now targets the green water bottle no matter where I put it - in fact, I'll even throw it and he goes trotting after it and touches it. (If I feel like it, I may take advantage of those new teeth growing and teach him to retrieve it!). No matter what, if I want to "end on a good note", all I ever have to do is pull out his favorite green water bottle


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## Shropshirerosie

Subbing, because I know that I will want to use some aspects of clicker training this spring, and this seems like a great resource to come to.


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## jillybean19

*Mouthiness*

At this point, you've got a horse that is reliably targeting and lowering his head, understanding that he's working for a click that will be followed by a treat.

BUT, you've also got a mouthy monster mugging you for treats!

*Mugging for treats is never ok - not even in clicker training.* This is where clicker training and "treat training" are very different. Treat training, without a click to mark the correct behavior, usually fails to communicate the idea of "earning" a treat through correct behavior. Rather, the horse just knows it does some stuff and eventually gets a treat shoved in its face. Clicker training "marks" the correct behavior with a click, allowing for accurate communication of the correct behavior, and then your horse MUST politely wait for his reward.

Have you ever tried telling a kindergartener what NOT to do, only to find out they did something else you didn't want them to do instead? It's much more effective to tell them what they SHOULD do instead to direct their behavior into being what you would like it to be. Horses are the same way. I have no problem giving my horse a firm smack on the nose for treat mugging. However, I also make a point of showing my horse what I DO expect from him - by clicker training it! In order for my horse to receive his treat, he must be politely waiting for it until I put it up to his lips. This is when it's ok for him to take it out of my hand, and never before that. If he reaches for a treat in my hand, I close my fingers around it and take it away. Moreover, if he starts mugging the treat back or is just not getting the message about what he should be doing, I focus specifically on this behavior: I start clicking when he turns his head _away_ from the treats. Between the clicking, the awarding or witholding of treats, and the occasional smack on the nose, it didn't take long for Flash to learn to be a polite little pony and wait until _I_ say he's allowed to take his treat.


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## G8tdh0rse

I have been wanting to try clicker training with my long yearlings. Just to see what it can do. They are curious friendly things now and seem interested in people. I have a clicker book but I am not sure if it is Kirklands.


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## jillybean19

*Backing Up*

And now, we're finally to what we worked on today: Backing up. Flash retained ALL of his knowledge about clicker training over the winter, so I didn't have to re-charge the clicker or work on targeting. We did do backing up last year, but I wanted to start here as a refresher for a few reasons.

First, I needed both of us to be successful. For our first training session of this year, I wanted him to catch on to something quickly and have some progress made. I already knew he could back up with a little bit of a reminder, so this was a good choice for us to focus on.

Second, I wanted to ask for a higher level. Last year, I got him to the point where I could give a little pressure (or even just move my hand behind his chin), and he would step backward. However, I want to prepare him for my expectations as a reining horse: backing up straight, over a longer distance, and doing it _quickly_.

Third, I want to re-train my cue. Last year, I trained him to back up when I turned around to face him and moved the lead rope toward his chest. Now, with my end goal in mind, I want him to back up on a verbal cue ("Back up"). This way, when I do get on, *what we've done on the ground will translate as the same cue and behavior while riding*.

So here's what we did today:

I took Flash out into the arena in a lead rope and halter. I had a carrot stick without a line on it, but it more or less proved to be more trouble than it was worth. I started out with the end goal in mind by using the lightest cue possible, simply saying "Back Up". Of course, at this point, that meant nothing to him. So, I took a step forward and shook my finger at his chest. Still nothing. Then, that shaking finger ended up poking him in the chest and he took a step back = click and treat! After a few minutes, he was taking a step back whenever I took a step toward his shoulder and shook my finger (I was still saying "back up" before doing anything and continued saying it like I will while riding, though, so that he'll eventually learn this as the cue).

Now, it was time to ask for a little more. He had to back 2 steps before getting the cue. Then three. And before long he was having to back up as long as I was giving the cue, though I limited that to about 5 or 6 steps back since it was just his first time. Occasionally, to keep him going, I did put a little pressure on the halter as well. After a bit, I took the lead rope off and asked him to back without it.

OK, so he's doing good so far, so I want to ask for a little more "go" in his backing! So, I picked up my energy, stepped toward him a little more aggressively, and when I got to his chest (because he was dragging his feet), I gave him some firm (not harsh), smacks on the chest to get a move on. That did the trick haha. Though I only intentionally did this to get him to move his feet a little faster, it doubled to communicate that I don't just wan't him to move his feet, but that we actually needed to GO somewhere! After that lightbulb went on for him, he seemed to really get what I was asking him and was becoming really responsive and successful in getting his treats!

Somewhere around this time, he decided he wasn't interested in the treats. He's usually very attentive and excited about clicker training and we can go for quite a while, but after about a half hour of taking breaks when _I_ said so, he was ready for his own break. So I let him have it  He went to the middle of the arena and had a good roll, then took a stroll around the entire outside of the arena checking out the fences, and then came back to me ready to work. He's a funny guy  Knowing his 2 1/2-year-old brain was getting tired and his tank-like belly was empty, I only asked him to back up a few more times and ended after two particularly good back-ups in a row (he was even starting to back up just with the verbal cue and no movement from me!) complete with extra treats and rubs for a job well-done.

It was a good day! I can't wait to continue our backing up lesson next time!


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## PunksTank

JillyBean - I'm loving reading everything so far! It sounds to me like me and you do everything very similar!! 
There's only a couple things I do differently - If you don't mind I'll just mention them so everyone reading can see some options in case one way doesn't work too well for them. 

Personally I use a smooch noise with my mouth - my hands are always full and I'm forgetful so carrying around a clicker wasn't ideal for me. At the same time it needed to be a noise really identifiable and never going to happen on accident - I tried using 'good' but words seemed to get lost with my horses as I talk to them so often. A clear smooching noise made things very clear to them. 
The only other difference I noticed was when I 'charge' the clicker, the same as you standing and shoving treats in my horse's mouth seemed useless, so I stepped tot he next step. But rather than jumping quite so far as to targeting I just taught them to stand still and look away. 
I stood in their stall with them - pockets bursting with treats (I use hay stretcher pellets) and waited. Of course the moment they realized I had them I was being mugged and knocked around. Anything gentle was ignored and anything rough earned them a dope slap. But normally for some reason the horse would look away - either a noise or they got bored, I'd click+treat. That's when they'd go crazy. Normally after 5 minutes they'd be standing politely all 4 feet on the ground (pawing is Never allowed in my book) and their head turned away. I also only feed treats just a bit behind their chin - just to reinforce that they need to be well out of my space, making them lean back a bit to get the food. 
I also wanted to add - When you begin keeping lessons short and sweet is best. Food gets them very excited and they can get worked up - it's best to let them stop and calm down and think about what they learned. The first few lessons I barely spent a whole 5 minutes each session - but I'd do 3-4 a day. Each time I came back the last thing we worked on was mastered. They had thought about it while I was away and figured it out. Now that they've been doing this a while they're less over-eager and I can work on things as long as I want, as long as I need - but I still find leaving and coming back they are 100x better. Even if I just come back 30 minutes later. Normally I'll do some CT, then clean their stalls, then do a little more, do some more chores, then do some more. 

JillyBean - I love this thread, I'm eager to read more about what you do and how you do it. I hadn't thought of teaching them to target what I point to - I was relying on putting the target on things they're nervous with. Which helped my mare overcome her terrible fear of leaving her paddock - she would touch my car and the big dumpster with the flappy tarp - targetting REALLY helped her overcome _so many_ fears!! I can take her out for trails and by roads - she still gets nervous sometimes but one of those 'easy' tasks like touching my target just settles her right down! 
I use a crop with some colorful duct tape on the end. One of the kids at my rescue uses one of those sparkly riding bats for the pony she's working with.  Anything can be a target. But I love the idea of pointing! Thanks for that JillyBean!!

I'm learning so much in your threads - often while working with them I know _that_ it's working, but I don't know _why_. So thank you for explaining!!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> JillyBean - I'm loving reading everything so far! It sounds to me like me and you do everything very similar!!
> There's only a couple things I do differently - If you don't mind I'll just mention them so everyone reading can see some options in case one way doesn't work too well for them.


Love it! You already gave me a few things to think about....



PunksTank said:


> Personally I use a smooch noise with my mouth - my hands are always full and I'm forgetful so carrying around a clicker wasn't ideal for me. At the same time it needed to be a noise really identifiable and never going to happen on accident - I tried using 'good' but words seemed to get lost with my horses as I talk to them so often. A clear smooching noise made things very clear to them.


That's a great idea! I got a high-quality clicker with a stretchy wristband so that I don't have to worry about carrying it. It's another piece of tack I carry with me, just like my halter or lead rope, so it wasn't a huge adjustment. I don't trust myself to be as consistent as I would need to be, so the clicker is great to keep things clear for my horse. More power to you for being able to cue correctly and consistently without an extra piece of equipment! I keep it all organized in my treat back - it slings over my shoulder with a front pocket with treats and a big pocket where all my targeting props, clicker, hoof pick, and even a brush if I want fit comfortably. I picked it up at a resell shop when I was looking for a fanny pack, but I love this instead. I'll have to post a picture of it sometime 



PunksTank said:


> The only other difference I noticed was when I 'charge' the clicker, the same as you standing and shoving treats in my horse's mouth seemed useless, so I stepped tot he next step. But rather than jumping quite so far as to targeting I just taught them to stand still and look away.
> I stood in their stall with them - pockets bursting with treats (I use hay stretcher pellets) and waited. Of course the moment they realized I had them I was being mugged and knocked around. Anything gentle was ignored and anything rough earned them a dope slap. But normally for some reason the horse would look away - either a noise or they got bored, I'd click+treat. That's when they'd go crazy. Normally after 5 minutes they'd be standing politely all 4 feet on the ground (pawing is Never allowed in my book) and their head turned away. I also only feed treats just a bit behind their chin - just to reinforce that they need to be well out of my space, making them lean back a bit to get the food.


I really like that - it sets the expectation from day one that you're not allowed to mug for treats! Given the opportunity to do this over again (or with a new horse), I think I'll go the route that you did for beginning clicker training. Great idea!



PunksTank said:


> I also wanted to add - When you begin keeping lessons short and sweet is best. Food gets them very excited and they can get worked up - it's best to let them stop and calm down and think about what they learned. The first few lessons I barely spent a whole 5 minutes each session - but I'd do 3-4 a day. Each time I came back the last thing we worked on was mastered. They had thought about it while I was away and figured it out. Now that they've been doing this a while they're less over-eager and I can work on things as long as I want, as long as I need - but I still find leaving and coming back they are 100x better. Even if I just come back 30 minutes later. Normally I'll do some CT, then clean their stalls, then do a little more, do some more chores, then do some more.


I knew about keeping it short because of their attention span, but hadn't thought about giving them "processing time". That's an excellent insight and I'm going to make a point of giving Flash breaks more often. It's hard because he'll usually work as long as I want him to, but giving "think time" is actually a really important part of teaching human students, so it only seems logical that horses would benefit from short learning sessions with "thinking" breaks in between! :idea:



PunksTank said:


> JillyBean - I love this thread, I'm eager to read more about what you do and how you do it. I hadn't thought of teaching them to target what I point to - I was relying on putting the target on things they're nervous with. Which helped my mare overcome her terrible fear of leaving her paddock - she would touch my car and the big dumpster with the flappy tarp - targetting REALLY helped her overcome _so many_ fears!! I can take her out for trails and by roads - she still gets nervous sometimes but one of those 'easy' tasks like touching my target just settles her right down!
> I use a crop with some colorful duct tape on the end. One of the kids at my rescue uses one of those sparkly riding bats for the pony she's working with.  Anything can be a target. But I love the idea of pointing! Thanks for that JillyBean!!


I think you just gave me an excuse to go get one of those sparkly riding bats now. I never really could justify them, but now I really want to have one! Haha I'll be a princess on my pony after all 



PunksTank said:


> I'm learning so much in your threads - often while working with them I know _that_ it's working, but I don't know _why_. So thank you for explaining!!


No problem, and thank you! I'm glad we can both bounce our ideas and insights with one another. This is going to be a great clicker-training year!

PS - I do have a B.A. in Psychology, so I've got the theory thing down if you ever want to discuss the nitty-gritty science behind all this, but I try to stick to the practical application that everyone else cares about haha


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## Foxtail Ranch

This is very good JB!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

*Reinforcement: The nitty gritty details*

In order to understand clicker training, you must understand the terms that apply to behavioral training in general: positive, negative, reinforcement, and punishment. These govern ALL motivated behavior, whether we're talking about horses, lizards, birds, bugs.... Everything. Even you humans reading this.

Here's a little upper-division psychology for you 

First, lets define them:
Positive: this is like a positive in math, *not* positive meaning "good". It means adding something that wasn't there before.
Negative: this is also like math - a negative number means you're taking something away or subtracting it. This is not "bad", so don't confuse this definition of negative with one that is judgemental in nature.
Reinforcement: this is anything that causes a behavior to happen more often, as in it _reinforces_ the behavior.
Punishment: this is anything that causes a behavior to happen less often

**Note: something can be intended to be a reinforcer or punishment that is NOT actually a reinforcer or punishment since it is ineffective and does not achieve making the behavior happen more or less often. I addition, something that was a reinforcer or punishment can stop and start being either. It all depends on whether it is currently effectie to change behavior or not.

Now, let's combine them and discuss the results:

Positive reinforcement: by definition, this is adding something that causes the behavior to happen more often. For example, when you work, you receive money, so you work more to receive more money.

Negative reinforcement: again, by definition, this is taking away something that in turn causes a behavior to happen more often. For example, there is a sqeaky door that really annoys you. However, when you put WD-40 on it, it stops sqeaking. This leads to you putting WD-40 on the door whenever it sqeaks so that the noise goes away. Taking the squeak away is negatively renforcing you putting the WD-40 on the door!

Positive punishment: this is when something is added that causes a behavior to happen less often. For example, when a child misbehaves, spankings are added to the scenario. So, the child misbehaves less often.

Negative punishment: this is when something is taken away that results in the behavior happening less often. Say a teen stays out too late, so driving privilages are taken away. Afterward, the teen does not disobey their curfew again.

Now that I've clarified what these terms mean, I'll apply each to horses in my next post. For now, I need to grade some papers


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## jillybean19

jillybean19 said:


> For now, I need to grade some papers


By the way, I need to grade papers because:

If I do, my students will be happy to find out their grades (positive reinforcement)

If I do, I can go home earlier and not have to stay at school (negative reinforcement)

If I don't, I risk hearing about it from my boss (positive punishment)

If I don't, I risk loosing my job (negative punishment)

There's some hard-core behavioral operant conditioning for you - ponder that one for a moment!


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## jillybean19

*Operant Conditioning: Applying it to horses*

Ok, so in my last post, I explained the different aspects of operant conditioning. (Operant conditioning is simply a fancy psychology term for saying we can train behavior through motivation and is applicable to pretty much every voluntary behavior known to living organisms).

Now, let's apply it to horses:

Positive reinforcement: This is where clicker training finds a home. With clicker training, a reinforcer (usually a treat) is introduced when the desired behavior is performed. Technically, treat training is also positive reinforcement as far as it is able to reinforce the behavior you're wanting. The addition of a clicker as a "bridge" between the the behavior and actually receiving a treat simply allows us to be more intentional, accurate, and flexible with the behaviors we are trying to reinforce, which I already discussed in a previous post.

Negative reinforcement: This is where training off of pressure comes into play. In "traditional" training, pressure is applied to guide/ask the horse to do something, and then the pressure is released when the horse responds correctly. The horse learns to work for the release of pressure.

Positive punishment: This is used each time you smack your horse for getting in your space. For instance, if he is mugging you for treats and you give him a firm thwack on the nose, he learns not to mug you for treats or else!

Negative punishment: I had a hard time coming up with one for this, but it just dawned on me yesterday - this is often used in *proper* clicker training if you are going to give the horse a treat and the horse reaches out for it a little too eagerly. The correct thing to do in this situation would be to wrap your fingers around the treat and take it back. Withholding the treat discourages the horse from reaching for it, and since you are eliminating that behavior by taking something away that he would have gotten otherwise, it is negative punishment.

Oftentimes, these are simultaneously used to govern behavior. I already gave an example above about how each of these applied to why I graded those papers, but now here's an example of combining these within a training session: If I wanted to teach my horse to back up (as I did yesterday), I first gave the cue that I want him to learn ("back up"). However, since that didn't mean anything to him yet, I stepped forward and put pressure on his front shoulder. He took a step back, and I released the pressure (negative reinforcement), clicked, and treated (positive reinforcement). However, if he ever reached for a treat, I would have bopped him on the nose (positive punishment) and withheld the treat (negative punishment). During any given training session, you'll usually find me using a combination of positive and negative reinforcement (clicking and treating as well as using pressure). I don't use punishment unless he does something I don't want, obviously. Usually, that doesn't happen, though, since he's so keen on trying to figure out what I want 

There are many other examples of how these are used with horses and in our everyday lives. Hopefully, you're beginning to get an idea of how important these principles are and how they apply to just about everything you do. For example, I am currently writing this because I want the positive reinforcement of hearing other people's comments and knowing I helped them learn something as well as the hoped-for negative reinforcement of fewer people writing off clicker training simply because they don't understand it.

Which, by the way, brings us to reinforcement schedules and how some schedules are more powerful than others in sustaining behavior - but that's for another post


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## jillybean19

*Reinforcement Schedules*

Once you understand reinforcement and punishment and the different ways that they work, now it comes to WHEN you reinforce. This isn't quite as critical as knowing why training works the way it does in the first place, so I'll keep it short and sweet for those that are interested in the various types of reinforcement schedules and the results they produce.

The first main type of reinforcement schedule is *continuous reinforcement*. This is the type of schedule most commonly used in clicker training. Basically, this means that the behavior is reinforced each time it's given. In other words, if I'm teaching my horse to pick up his feet, I click and treat each time the horse picks his foot up. This is best used during the initial stages of learning as it create a strong association between the behavior and reinforcement. However, once the behavior is firmly associated with the reinforcement (and your horse knows what you expect from him), you can do two things - ask for more and/or switch to a partial reinforcement schedule. Personally, I do both. I'll explain the "asking for more" in the next post, but the basic idea is that the horse has to take the behavior one step further before getting a reinforcement (now he has to hold his foot up longer... and longer....) and you're actually asking for your horse to learn something _new_ (i.e. holding a foot rather than just picking it up). However, for this post, I'm going to explain switching to a partial reinforcement schedule in order to reinforce the SAME behavior that was already taught. This prevents what we call "extinction" - in other words, the behavior stopping since we're not reinforcing it anymore (*for those of you who think that a clicker trained horse will ALWAYS need a clicker, listen up!*).

Partial reinforcement: this means that the horse doesn't get a reinforcement every time it does what you're asking. Instead, it only gets a reinforcement _part_ of the time. This way, you can ask for the behavior more often without a reinforcement (i.e. you can ask for behavior without a clicker) and the horse will still respond even though it doesn't get a treat every time.

I'm only going to worry about the things that are most important here - if you want to know more, Google "reinforcement schedules".

Here are the key terms you need to know to understand partial reinforcement:
Fixed = when you reinforce doesn't change.
Variable = it's unpredictable when you'll reinforce behavior
Ratio = when you reinforce depends on the number of times the behavior is performed
Interval = when you reinforce depends on the amount of time that has passed (I'm not going to discuss this one here, though).

There are four types of partial reinforcement, and different schedules lead to different results. I've included a graph below that illustrates these. I'm only going to explain fixed ratio and variable ratio here, though, because they directly apply to clicker training.

Fixed ratio means that you reinforce after a specific number of correct behaviors. Generally, this leads to a steady rate of responses in order to earn the reward with only a brief pause after getting the reward. For example, every time a kid completes three math problems, he gets a piece of candy, so he does three math problems, receives his candy, eats it and pauses, then decides he wants another one so gets back to work again. The weakness here is that, if the horse doesn't receive a treat after the expected time, the behavior can break down and the horse stops responding.

Variable ratio solves this problem. With variable ratio reinforcement, the horse never knows when it's going to get a reward - it can perform the desired behavior any number of times and may or may not receive the reinforcer. This is the most powerful reinforcement schedule as it produces a high and steady rate of the desired behavior. Don't believe me? This is how gambling addiction works: You never now when you're going to win, even without any sort of reward (and even _lose_ money!), people keep on gambling and gambling because every now and then they win $5 back, $2 back, $10 back, etc., and they think they just might hit the jackpot with the next round.

This applies to clicker training when teaching the horse to respond the way you want it to _without_ the clicker. I use this to reinforce behaviors that my horse knows and that I expect, but want to reward every now and then. When I'm "phasing out" the clicker, I'll ask the horse to do what I want and only click and treat every now and then. Thus, he learns that he can respond even without the clicker. Eventually, I won't use the clicker at all when asking for this behavior - this behavior is expected and the horse knows what he's supposed to be doing (thus I avoid the horse trying something else or getting confused because he didn't get a reinforcing click and treat). For things my horse knows REALLY well, I do click and treat every now and then just to say "good boy" in a way that's meaningful for him. I could probably be just fine without it, but I like to reinforce these behaviors every once in a while (i.e. maybe once in a week or even a month) just because. Since he never knows when what he's doing might earn him a treat, he's _always_ listening even when he doesn't get one!


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## Captain Evil

I am greatly enjoying reading these posts... It must be a lot of work, but I am very interested in the process, progress, and imput!


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## jillybean19

*Pats and Verbal Rewards: Are they reinforcement?*

I have never been able to wrap my mind around WHY we seem to think that patting a horse or telling it "Good Boy" would be rewarding for a horse. Personally, I think we do it because _we_ find it rewarding. Human language on its own is meaningless sto a horse, and I can't imagine that the horse (or any animal) _really_ wants to be patted - with one of my horses, it would actually be counter-productive since one of my horses is really sensitive to things like that and shies away from them.

Realistically, the only way a pat or a verbal reward could be any sort of reinforcer would be if it was done consistently enough with other things to become associated with those things. For instance, if your horse gets a quick break or a change in activity when they get their pat or "good boy", they could become associated with one another. Essentially, you've done the same thing that clicker training does when it creates a "bridge" between an inherently meaningless reinforcer and gives it meaning through association. However, since you're likely not being consistent and intentionally pairing the _real_ reward with your pat or verbal reward, it probably won't become very strongly associated with any sort of reward that the horse wants to work for.

However, just for kicks and giggles, let's assume that horses find pats and being told "good boy" or "good girl" is very rewarding for a horse.... It would still be a terrible reinforcer, much in the same way simply "treat training" is a terrible reinforcer and for the same reasons. The trouble with treat training is that you cannot give the horse immediate feedback on specific behaviors since it's impossible to give them a _treat at that moment_. Usually, if it's impossible to to feed a treat, it would probably be impossible to give them a pat. Thus, it's not really connected to the specific behavior you're working on but rather an overall "I did _something_ right."

The ultimate test to find out whether your pats or words are real reinforcers would be to stop giving them and keep everything else you're doing exactly the same except. If you stopped patting or saying "good boy", would your horse still work for you at the same level/speed he does now? My bet would be yes - because he's not working for the pat or words. Rather, he's working for the release of pressure, the _real_ reinforcer. Thus, since the pats aren't actually motivating the horse to perform the desired behaviors more often, it, by definition, is not a reinforcer at all.

(Disclaimer - I'm not saying you shouldn't pat/pet/rub your horse or tell them "good boy". In fact, though I don't pat because that just isn't something I do for whatever reason, I do give lots of rubs and verbal "good"-s because I do think it reinforces my relationship with my horse. I don't expect it to assist with my training beyond simply establishing a bond with my horse and being comfortable and happy around each other. In contrast, I expect the reinforcement with the clicker to actually produce results in our training.)


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## jillybean19

Shropshirerosie said:


> Subbing, because I know that I will want to use some aspects of clicker training this spring, and this seems like a great resource to come to.





G8tdh0rse said:


> I have been wanting to try clicker training with my long yearlings. Just to see what it can do. They are curious friendly things now and seem interested in people. I have a clicker book but I am not sure if it is Kirklands.





PunksTank said:


> JillyBean - I'm loving reading everything so far! It sounds to me like me and you do everything very similar!!
> There's only a couple things I do differently - If you don't mind I'll just mention them so everyone reading can see some options in case one way doesn't work too well for them.
> 
> I'm learning so much in your threads - often while working with them I know _that_ it's working, but I don't know _why_. So thank you for explaining!!





tiffanyodonnell said:


> This is very good JB!





Captain Evil said:


> I am greatly enjoying reading these posts... It must be a lot of work, but I am very interested in the process, progress, and imput!


Hehehe - you all have positively reinforced me on an variable ratio schedule (since I never know when someone is going to say something!), thus contributing to my motivation for continuing this thread. Thank you!  <3


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## PunksTank

JillyBean - I'm very impressed - I'm loving reading about _why_ and _how_ all of the things I do work xD I know how to do it, but not how or why it works.
Thank you so much! This is clearing up so many questions in my mind.

I just wanted to add - to be clear to anyone reading this thread, with all the statements about reinforcement schedules - this Still Applies with pressure+release training without a clicker. Even if all you use is pressure+release, the schedules still take place. This is why when someone has heavy hands with slow or no release of pressure (holding heavy contact all the time) horse's develop 'hard mouths'. The horse's mouth isn't getting tougher and you don't need a stronger bit - you need softer hands and better timed releases of pressure, where the release is significant enough to make the horse desire it.

So the concepts of schedules work for every reinforcer. I just didn't want someone to read this thread and think "well why bother teach CT if you just have to wean them off it" - well (this is my bratty opinion) why bother use something that you need to reinforce All the time? 
Don't get me wrong, personally I use a mix of all 4 - Just making a point.


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## jillybean19

*Backing up, day 2*

OK, so now that I've finally gotten all that theory and technicality stuff down, I can finally update on our progress today!

I went out with the goal to just work on what we started yesterday (backing up with a verbal cue), adding speed and getting him to respond to the verbal cue. AND, per PunksTank's suggestion, I wanted to make sure I kept our training session short.

I was pleasantly surprised with how yesterday's lesson apparently "sunk in" overnight! I'm betting that the same thing would have happened even with just a short break yesterday like PunksTanks suggested. Unfortunately, I board my horses so it's a little difficult to spread out our sessions with breaks, but I'll have to get creative. For now, I'll just do little mini-lessons. I'm not sure how long I was out there today, but I made a point of stopping while we were ahead and keeping it shorter than yesterday.

I turned Flash out in the arena as soon as we got out there. He was eager to find out what game we were playing today, so he followed me wherever I went and stopped respectfully when I did (we've worked on where he's supposed to walk respectfully before and he got a reminder the other day when I reacted by shaking his halter without the clicker - he's been very respectful since). Then, I turned around and said "back up" - and he took a step backward! I immediately clicked and treated. He's backing up about 50% of the time on just the verbal cue now and will continue backing up if I keep saying it (backupbackupbackup...). He'll even do so at a decent speed, through I still want to get him faster. If I pick up my energy and walk toward him, shaking my finger at his chest like I did yesterday, then he picks up speed and moves pretty well.

I forgot to mention yesterday how he was swinging his hip some and not backing up straight, but I fixed that by swinging the lead rope at his hip and turning his head slightly, so he straightened back out. He seems to have worked the "straight" thing out now, especially since we're picking up speed and he has to move fairly straight in order to do so quickly.

After a few minutes of backing, he wandered off. I think he's feeding off some other cue he's not quite understanding and that I'm not trying to give, because he basically lunged himself on his own for a while. That alerted me to the fact that I needed to teach him a "come here" cue since he was so convinced he was supposed to be going around me (I try to do most of our training at liberty and didn't have the lead on to stop him). So, for the next few minutes, i focused on just asking him to come. Essentially, I called his name and extended the back of my hand to him and had him target it. Pretty soon, I could send him off by swinging the lead rope and then ask him to come in and touch my hand. Once I had his attention again, I asked him to back up a few steps, then come back forward when I called him and extended my hand. We only did this a few times, and then I decided it was a good place to stop while he was still interested and paying attention.

Tomorrow, I think I'll continue working on the "back up" and "come here cues" and focus on those until we have them really well 

One last interesting note - we worked a LOT on leading last year out of necessity, including trotting when asked. He knows his cue very well, even after he had the winter off, and immediately trotted up to me when I asked him to catch up while leading him to the arena. However, he never passed me and slowed down as soon as his head was at my shoulder. It's so nice to have a cutie trotting after me and managing the slack in the lead rope appropriately!


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## PunksTank

That's fantastic Jillybean! I'm so glad to hear it - yup it sunk in!
Personally I do about 10 minutes of CT, then some barn chores, then a few more minutes. When I work with my mini-pair I'll work with 1 for about 10 minutes, then the other, then back to the first - usually taking an extra few minutes to reload my pockets  Usually that's enough time for them to have progressed a bit.

Also - I really want to teach my horses that, I'm having some trouble teaching lunging, as it takes a while to click and treat. I have to use a line all the time because my 'arena' has no fence, but it's the only area without grass xD But there's a large hay field right behind it - so I'm sure without the line my horses would be half way across the field before I realized they were gone xD


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> JillyBean - I'm very impressed - I'm loving reading about _why_ and _how_ all of the things I do work xD I know how to do it, but not how or why it works.
> Thank you so much! This is clearing up so many questions in my mind.
> 
> I just wanted to add - to be clear to anyone reading this thread, with all the statements about reinforcement schedules - this Still Applies with pressure+release training without a clicker. Even if all you use is pressure+release, the schedules still take place. This is why when someone has heavy hands with slow or no release of pressure (holding heavy contact all the time) horse's develop 'hard mouths'. The horse's mouth isn't getting tougher and you don't need a stronger bit - you need softer hands and better timed releases of pressure, where the release is significant enough to make the horse desire it.
> 
> So the concepts of schedules work for every reinforcer. I just didn't want someone to read this thread and think "well why bother teach CT if you just have to wean them off it" - well (this is my bratty opinion) why bother use something that you need to reinforce All the time?
> Don't get me wrong, personally I use a mix of all 4 - Just making a point.


Yes, and it's an excellent point! In explaining all this, I sometimes forget to explain that all of this theory relates to ALL behavior, even if you're not intentionally training anyone or anything. All "training" does - no matter what method you're using - is utilize the principles of behavior in order to shape it. So while I'm explaining this in the context of clicker training, it applies to anything you do and any method you use.

*I highly doubt that this was required education for my psychology major because they wanted me to be a good horse trainer - I'm sure putting that degree to good use!*


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## christopher

nice thread


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## jillybean19

*Do I have to use a clicker and treats?*

*No!
*
First the clicker:
The purpose of the clicker is to provide a "bridge" between the behavior you're trying to reinforce and the actual reward. This enables you to "mark" specific behaviors by clicking simultaneously with them when it would be impossible to give them a reward for the behavior right then.

A clicker works very well as a bridge because it is a distinct and consistent sound that creates a strong, clear association between behavior -> marker (the clicker sound) ->reward. A sound works better than any other type of reinforcement because it will pretty much always be noticed and recognized.

However, any sound that is distinct and consistent will work for "clicker training". For instance, I know some people use the caps from Snapple bottles (they click when you push them in) and PunksTank uses a smooching sound and doesn't even have to carry a clicker device! The key to a good "marker" is making sure that it's always the same and always associated with your reward. For instance, if you make a smooch noise for a cue, then a smooch noise will not be an effective marker since it's not clear what you're indicating when you make the noise. Moreover "good boy" or "good girl" is usually a poor marker choice because you're likely to make the same words or even just the sounds in other contexts and confuse the horse, and even our best efforts to say this the same way every time will likely fail since things like emotion will affect how we say it. Personally, I don't trust myself to be consistent enough with any verbal cue, and so I have my clicker permanently attached to my wrist with a high-quality elastic wristband and it's just one of the pieces of tack I grab when I intend to work with my horse. If I can grab a halter and lead rope, I can grab my clicker 

Now, the treats:
Once you understand what a reinforcer really is, you can decide what you'd like to use as your reinforcer. As long as it motivates the horse to work, it is a reinforcer! Preferably, you want a reinforcer that the horse will work for over a period of time as well. Does your horse work for a scratch behind his ears? If you'd like, you can use that instead of treats! However, treats are often the most convenient reinforcer for a number of reasons. First, most horses are food-motivated simply because it's a basic need, so we can exploit it. Not all food will work for all horses - for instance, one of my horses only likes a few bites of grain and then loses interest. Grain would not be a good reinforcer for him, while it probably would be for most horses. I like using "cookies" because I believe they're healthier and I don't have to worry about him getting too much. Plus, I can change flavors to keep him interested. I try to find the smallest ones I can so that I can give a small reward without feeding too much each time.


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## jillybean19

*Clicker Emergencies*

I'm going to call this "clicker emergencies" to distinguish between this and clicker training. *Though these examples aren't intended actually teach the horse anything, having a clicker trained horse does come with a few side benefits that I've found very useful*.

One example is for *when you need your horse to do something new and there's no time to actually train the behavior*. For instance, my colt needed somewhat urgent hoof care when I purchased him. He'd never been worked on by a farrier before and had a terrible flare and a few other issues I wanted to attend to right away, especially since it seemed like he was having strange bone development in order to balance himself on his hooves. By the time the farrier came out (about week into using clicker training), Flash knew what the clicker meant, but we didn't have time to work on picking up much less holding his feet for the farrier. My dad, a skeptic about my clicker training, came out to help me hold him for the Farrier. Flash was not happy and didn't participate, and I could tell my farrier was exercising a tremendous amount of patience. It wasn't long before I told him I could go get my clicker and that would probably help. My dad said the farrier probably didn't want me messing around and giving treats, but the farrier said to go ahead and do anything I thought might help. Out came my bag and the clicker! Normally, I would practice just picking up feet, then holding feet for a second, and then holding them longer and longer to actually train the behavior. However, there was no time for that. As soon as the farrier picked up Flash's foot, I started clicking and treating constantly. If he pulled his foot away or put it down, the clicking and treating stopped. It took him one try to figure out the game and then he was the easiest 18-month-old you've ever tried to work with! Again, this didn't teach him to hold his feet, but it got us through a nearly-impossible hoof trim. In addition, simply feeding him wouldn't have worked since it would have just created a mouthy and impatient horse trying to get more snacks. With the clicker, he knew he had to earn the treats and that they wouldn't just be given to him for no reason. (Since then, we've done a lot of work to train him to be good about his feet, going through the process I describe above of asking more and more from him in order to earn the click, and I can now work with all his hooves without any problems and without the aid of a clicker or treats)

My second example of where the clicker has helped in a tight spot is to *get a horse's attention in a critical and urgent situation*. For example, last fall I was leading Flash back from a ride and he got excited and took off loping and bucking home, pulling the lead rope out of my hands. However, the place I was boarding was off a main road with lots of 50-60mph traffic and there was a good chance he would run right out on the road if I couldn't get him stopped. I yelled "woah" and "Flash!", but he was headed for home! Then, almost by instinct, I started clicking my clicker furiously to get his attention - And he stopped immediately! Hey, he wasn't going to miss out on a treat! He stood still and waited for me to catch up to give it to him - At this point, I started clicking about every 5 seconds to tell him he was doing what I wanted (standing still) and keep him standing there while I caught up. Crisis averted!


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Once you understand what a reinforcer really is, you can decide what you'd like to use as your reinforcer. As long as it motivates the horse to work, it is a reinforcer! Preferably, you want a reinforcer that the horse will work for over a period of time as well. Does your horse work for a scratch behind his ears? If you'd like, you can use that instead of treats! However, treats are often the most convenient reinforcer for a number of reasons. First, most horses are food-motivated simply because it's a basic need, so we can exploit it. Not all food will work for all horses - for instance, one of my horses only likes a few bites of grain and then loses interest. Grain would not be a good reinforcer for him, while it probably would be for most horses. I like using "cookies" because I believe they're healthier and I don't have to worry about him getting too much. Plus, I can change flavors to keep him interested. I try to find the smallest ones I can so that I can give a small reward without feeding too much each time.


Continuing to love your posts JillyBean!! I was wondering if you could explain one more thing about food rewards (if you were already planning too sorry for jumping the gun ). I hear so many people say "horses don't think like predators, their food is at their feet, so they don't know how to work for food" - While I disagree with this, seeing my horses dig in the snow for the little grass underneath, and seeing other horses who have learned to kick walls or whinny for food. But I was wondering if you could explain it for people who believe that?

I have to add - CT has saved me in an emergency very similar! My pony rolled close to the fence and rolled right under it - he was half way across my yard and heading for a busy street as well - I grabbed my target and ran out as fast as I could - Calling his name he saw the target and doubled-back and ran right up to it!! I wonder what the neighbors thought - my target is a crop xD
I also had to use it similar to your hoof trimming for one of our old rescues who got cast in the snow, clicking and treating while he was still, so we could dig him out.


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## jillybean19

*But horses aren't predators!*



PunksTank said:


> Continuing to love your posts JillyBean!! I was wondering if you could explain one more thing about food rewards (if you were already planning too sorry for jumping the gun ). I hear so many people say "horses don't think like predators, their food is at their feet, so they don't know how to work for food" - While I disagree with this, seeing my horses dig in the snow for the little grass underneath, and seeing other horses who have learned to kick walls or whinny for food. But I was wondering if you could explain it for people who believe that?


Excellent question and one that I've also seen come up a lot.

Bottom line, every living thing needs energy and usually devotes the majority of its life working to obtain it by consuming food in some way/shape/form. Horses are no exception. It is a simple fact of life: horses need food to survive and so they work for it - whether they're in the wild and searching for grazing grounds or domesticated and chasing the rest of the herd off their flake of hay. Since horses work so hard to obtain their food simply to stay alive, it's an easy thing to exploit as a reinforcer/motivator in clicker training, especially if you use something like _enjoy_ eating and don't get all the time.

Where predators are concerned, I'd actually be more worried about using food with them than I would non-predators. Most predators, like dogs, are fine being given treats. However, there are a few (snakes come to mind) that like their prey to be alive and lose interest in meals that aren't moving. If you were to clicker train an animal such as this, you'd have to find something that motivates them. If squirming meals were the only thing that motivated them to work, you'd have to use that as your reinforcer!

Herbivores, on the other hand, actually need more food than predators to function and that is why they are ALWAYS eating. Plants actually do not contain a whole lot of nutrition, so herbivores eat a lot, poop out most of it, and so must continue eating more. In contrast a predator, like a lion, can get all their nutrients from one meal and some can go weeks without eating.

Which brings us to the issue of being full. Any animal using treats in training does risk getting full and losing motivation to eat (like when you have a HUGE meal and don't even wan to look at dessert! Rare, I know, but it does happen lol). You don't need a starved animal, but right after feeding time probably isn't the best time to try clicker training, either. Generally, if you work with your horse any other time than after feeding time, they should be decently motivated to work for treats since they have such high energy (food) demands. Horses allowed free-choice hay and grass are usually ok since they're getting a slow and steady food intake (as opposed to stuffing themselves once or twice a day) and should still want food when you're working with them since they're working for food all day anyway. However, you'll need to pay attention to your horse and get to know them to find out when his optimal training time will be based on the desire for food (or whatever your reward is) and any other factors that affect motivation and attention.

All of this applies to all animals for the same reasons - here are a few examples of "unlikely" animals working with clicker training, none of which are predators:
Parakeet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg4ugn8Nlmo

Goldfish (I don't think they're predators, and even if they are, how incredible that CT is so simple and elegant it can be used with virtually any animal!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4kPZ25IMn0

And, not gonna lie, this is my favorite one I found for so many reasons and I LOVE these camels! (And for us CT junkies, check out the targeting, the "stand" game aka "stand on your mat", and the camel/trainer reaction to when the camel asks for food!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShI6WYlSdz8


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## PunksTank

XD I think I almost died with that goldfish video!!! That's incredible!! What a devoted guy to train his goldfish. That's awesome! Thank you for the detailed explanation again JillyBean 
The camels were awesome too! I actually just bought my horse "Irish Tank" a Shamrock welcome mat to learn to stand on the mat! She already knows Stand without the mat, but I would like her to use the mat too so when my pony sitter comes she can use the mat when she needs to clean her stall with her in it. That way she can put the mat where she wants her to stand, well out of her way. (typically we clean while they're outside but my pony sitter only has time to do the big clean at night after they've been 'tucked in')


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## jillybean19

*Training: The horse's perspective*

Imagine you're sitting comfy and cozy in bed doing something you enjoy - probably reading and posting on HorseForum.com  Or even just sleeping!

Someone comes in speaking a language you don't know, pulls you out of bed, puts clothes on you that you're not particularly fond of, and leads you to the front yard. Then, they pinch the underside of your upper arm - that's right, the place that's soft and tender and hurts when it's pinched! And then, they don't let go! You push them away, try to pull away, swat at their hand, and do anything that makes sense to you to get them to stop pinching you, but somehow they just keep holding on. Finally, out of frustration, you start hopping on your right foot - and they let go and say some stuff to you in their language (though you don't know what it means)! You stop hopping and yell at them "what was that all about?!", but they start pinching you again. After going through all the things you did before with no luck, you randomly hop on your right foot again - and they let go and say the same thing again! You start putting two and two together: if you hop on your right foot, they'll stop pinching you. So then whenever they go to pinch you you immediately start hopping on one foot. In fact, if they even start to reach for your arm, you start hopping, and they don't even pinch you at all! That's all fine and dandy until, one time, they pinch your other arm. Now, they won't let go even when you start hopping on your right foot. You try and try, and then eventually out of frustration you start hopping on your left foot - and they let go! You figure out a little quicker this time that the side they go to pinch tells you which foot you're supposed to be hopping on... Eventually other cues and behaviors are added and you get quicker at figuring this out until you have a whole set of things you can do and avoid getting pinched at all. Now that you've figured out the system, you might even like it when this person comes to get you because you don't get pinched very much and you may even get a back rub when you're all done. You have been "trained".

While I don't like to believe it's _quite_ that negative, and is probably much better for experienced trainers, this is how I imagine traditional training seems to horses.

Now, lets switch the scenario starting from the very beginning:
Someone comes in speaking a language you don't know, pulls you out of bed, puts clothes on you that you're not particularly fond of, and leads you to the front yard. Then, they just step away from you and stare at you. This isn't very comfortable for you and you tell them to stop. They don't listen. Then, you go to walk over to them - as soon as you pick your foot up to take the first step, they clap their hands once and give you a dollar! You look at them funny and think they're crazy. You try to ask them what's going on, but they just step away and begin staring again. Pretty soon, you walk towards them again, and they clap and give you another dollar! Ok, so something is up now. For whatever reason, whenever you start walking toward them, they clap and then give you a dollar. This happens a few more times, but then they stop clapping and giving you dollars when you walk towards them. They're still staring at you expectantly, though, so you try other things. You try walking towards them faster, walking different directions, walking away from them, and eventually you try walking by picking your feet up really high. As soon as you lift your foot up high in the air, they clap a bunch of times and give you five bucks! You lift your foot high again, and the same thing happens! Yay! Then they start clapping once and only giving you a dollar when you lift your foot up, and then it stops all together  So now, you try taking a giant step with your right foot toward them, and, naturally, you take a giant step with your left foot - as your left foot is in the air, you get a clap and a treat! Yay! Another clue! So now you've figured out that you need to lift your left foot up. You pick it up a few times, and get a big clap and $5 again! You do it a few more times, but now you're back to only one clap and one dollar, but then it stops again  What is the next step? You stand on your right foot with your left foot in the air and try a few things. Since this all started out as you going toward them, maybe they want you to hop toward them on your right foot? You start hopping toward them and you earn another big clap and $5! Yay! You think you've got it - they want you to hop towards them! Except, wait, nope  The treats stop again. You hop all around and don't get any treats - until, not knowing what else to do, you just hop in place. Ding Ding Ding - you hit the jackpot! Now, you've got a round of applause, $10, and a back rub - then you're sent back to bed 

*Did you know you can do this for real? Try it with your friends/kids! The "training game" is one of my students' favorite things to play:* One student leaves the room and the class decides what the "behavior" is going to be and what our "cue" will be. For example, we decided once that we were going to have someone grab a piece of candy out of the candy jar and feed it to a specific person. Our cue was actually to shake our heads "no"! The student comes back in and tries to figure out what we want them to do. I have to sometimes coach my students not to say or do anything except give the cue when our "training subject" gets closer to figuring out what we're asking them to do. In this case, we shook our heads when he got close to the candy jar. 10 people shaking their heads at you is odd, so they caught on quickly that it was the cue. The moved back and forth trying to figure out the exact location, and, once they did, we stopped shaking our heads for the location and he had to figure out the next step. He started touching everything within arm's reach, and eventually touched the candy jar - and we all shook our heads! Aha! We continued our game until they eventually figured out to grab the candy (which they immediately opened and took a bite of), then started trying to "feed" it to other students - and we gave him a big applause when he offered it to the correct person. They love coming up with weird and crazy things for each other to do! *Practice it with the people you know and you'll really get a feel for timing, accuracy, and how it feels to figure it out yourself!*

The only difference between this and clicker training is the reward - humans are willing to work for a reward as simple as knowing they figured it out. Plus, we have much higher thinking capabilities in order to understand that many little "cues" for "yes" can lead to the ultimate goal, so a reinforcer isn't needed for every correct behavior.

Anyway, just some food for thought on the horse's perspective  And a fun game to play whether or not you actually do clicker training!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> XD I think I almost died with that goldfish video!!! That's incredible!! What a devoted guy to train his goldfish. That's awesome!


If you liked that, you're going to love this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgRrrNL-mi4

This doesn't actually use a clicker in the kit, but I imagine the training would be enhanced if someone were to combine this with a clicker like the goldfish one. Just goes to show, though, what can be achieved through positive reinforcement! If a feeder fish like this one can figure this out, imagine what your horse is capable of that you may never have dreamed possible!


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok. So, I visited your blog jillybean, and I saw some pictures of your horse trying to buck you off. How will you go about fixing that with clicker training?


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## jillybean19

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok. So, I visited your blog jillybean, and I saw some pictures of your horse trying to buck you off. How will you go about fixing that with clicker training?


I'm going to avoid being stupid and thinking I can get on a 2 1/2 year old horse that hasn't been worked with for 4 months and wasn't hardly even green broke before that 

If you read the very first post of this thread, you'll see that I'm taking a few steps back and starting from (almost) square one like I should have haha.


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## Wanstrom Horses

jillybean19 said:


> I'm going to avoid being stupid and thinking I can get on a 2 1/2 year old horse that hasn't been worked with for 4 months and wasn't hardly even green broke before that
> 
> If you read the very first post of this thread, you'll see that I'm taking a few steps back and starting from (almost) square one like I should have haha.


Ok. Can you fix a horse that bucks with clicker training? All horses buck at least once in their life, it's just their nature. How would you, in your methods, go about fixing that?


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## jillybean19

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok. Can you fix a horse that bucks with clicker training? All horses buck at least once in their life, it's just their nature. How would you, in your methods, go about fixing that?


I'm not a clicker training purist meaning that I don't reject other methods but rather use the clicker to enhance them. Usually, I will use the pressure and release method to guide my horse to what I want him to do, and the click and treat when he does it. (However, I always start with the "final cue" in mind - such as giving him the chance to back up to only the verbal cue before I apply pressure since I eventually want him to respond to only the verbal cue.) Along those same lines, I will also tell the horse "no" when necessary, such as when a horse bucks. If the horse isn't doing what I want him to, he simply doesn't get a click or treat and I would work with him like "normal" until he does something to earn the click and treat again. In the big picture, he knows that doing what I ask earns him a click and treat and disobedience earns him nothing or maybe even a punishment. That takes away any motivation he might have to buck.

If I do my ground work right, he will know what to expect before I even get on and there shouldn't be any confusion about what I'm asking. I plan to teach him nearly all his cues from the ground before I climb on again. This is no different than any other trainer that does solid ground work before getting on - except that I'm using a clicker as a tool along with everything else. However, like I noted above, there will likely be little to no motivation to buck, especially after he learns he won't get anything he wants from it, and he'd much rather just do what I'm asking to get a click and treat .

(That's what happened last year when I was working with him, by the way. As long as his little colt mind was being regularly worked, he never offered to buck once and we actually went to a big trail riding event for Halloween and he did better than the veteran horses - without the clicker!)


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## jillybean19

You'll find that a lot of people who do clicker training correctly have excited and willing attitudes and wouldn't want to buck in the first place other than maybe to "play" - which is what my boy is still doing quite often. We'll be in the arena doing work at liberty and he just gets so excited he takes off bucking and farting, then comes running back to me to play more "games" and earn clicks and treats! To me, this doesn't sound like a horse that would regularly try to buck you off, though I will need to make sure he's got his wiggles out when we do get back to riding. If his behavior does become and issue and the excited bucks don't go away (I'm positive it's just his age), then I'll have to address that with a little less tolerance for baby behavior. He NEVER does this on a lead, however - I took care of any excited hops on a lead almost as soon as I got him in November 2010 with a good smack across the chest and chasing him out of my space. He knows better now than to do anything silly in my space or while on a rope.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Ok, thanks! I was just curious to see if there was a specific method or not


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## jillybean19

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok, thanks! I was just curious to see if there was a specific method or not


To be honest, clicker training gives us a tool that allows us to adapt our methods. At the heart and soul of clicker training is simply communicating a "yes" signal to the horse by means of a "marker" (the click that allows us flexibility and accuracy with our reinforcements) and a reinforcer (the treat). Then, you create a "chain" of behaviors that starts with baby steps and steadily gets a horse closer and closer to the ultimate behavior goal. Beyond that, each clicker trainer might approach training specific behaviors differently. In fact, I take different approaches with my two horses for the same behavior. With Flash, my clicker-trained colt, I taught him to lower his head by using a target on the ground and pointing at it. With Snickers, my endurance horse that I don't use clicker training with very often (at least so far), I taught him to lower his head by applying poll pressure. There are various books and personal examples of how a clicker trainer approached a specific behavior, but we're often all a little (or very!) different in the steps we take and there isn't a prescribed way to approach it.

Personally, I think that's the beauty of clicker training. Since we have the added ability to say "yes" in addition to "no", we can shape certain behaviors that would be very difficult with pressure alone and we are also able to connect those behaviors to cues that don't require any pressure at all. PunksTank kind of touched on this when they mentioned why clicker training is commonly associated with tricks - there's really no other way to teach some of these things! For instance, it would be very difficult to teach a horse to retrieve something for you by using pressure. However, clicker training isn't limited to tricks - you can teach anything you want to through clicker training and so I use it to enhance my regular training and it enables me to easily teach more useful things like standing completely still as I move around my horse doing whatever it is I'm doing. As far as riding goes, I'm going to teach my horse from day one to move off a leg cue rather than a a rein cue, made possible by associating the leg cue with a click and treat ever time the horse moves away from it. When we started this last fall, he was turning off only a leg cue within a day. Without clicker training, I would have to do direct reining first and then use direct reining to teach the horse to associate the leg cue with turning.


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## PunksTank

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Ok. So, I visited your blog jillybean, and I saw some pictures of your horse trying to buck you off. How will you go about fixing that with clicker training?


JillyBean did a great job explaining, Clicker training can really only be used to say "Yes" so rather than teaching them _not_ to do something, we teach them what we'd prefer they do. My horse who used to kick walls for food, now only gets food if she's standing politely - wall kicking is ignored (or if it's extensive she gets a swift butt-kicking) - wall kicking is almost completely eliminated now.

I wanted to add my experience I _was_ able to teach a horse not to buck with CT. The horse always bucked when asked for an upward transition, no pain issues found. It was always an attitude thing, because he would trot on if you kept at him. Because it was a consistent response of him bucking I was able to reinforce with a "Yes" when he didn't buck. This wouldn't have worked if he bucked just for the heck of it whenever he wanted - but because it always happened when asking for upward transitions I was able to pinpoint and reward when he didn't buck. Each time I would ask him for a trot, if he didn't buck I would click right during the smooth transition and after a few trot steps I'd slow back down and treat him. I gradually increased the number of trot steps until he no longer bucked and would trot until I was ready for him to stop. Then we repeated the same for trot-canter transitions, which really only needed a few times to work out.

Also I wanted to mention what happened with me today! I started 2 new horses in their Clicker Training, both rescues, one is a 4 month old colt - he figured out targetting in less than 5 minutes, it was incredible! He always has issues focusing, when learning to lead he would get distracted easy and flap around and it took great force and constant corrections _just_ to keep his attention. So I decided to start with CT - I held his attention for a good 20 minutes, he never once got distracted from me, even when one of the kids brought his mom into the next paddock over to work with her some. I stopped after 20 only because I was out of food and wanted to stop while I was ahead. I had him targetting my hand and worked on touching him behind his shoulder. He loves to be scratched on his chest but will not allow anyone to touch behind his shoulder, today I was able to reach up to his girth area with him calm. 

I also started working with a mini, she has serious dental problems and will never be able to eat solid food (she has too many teeth for her face and the vet removed some but it's still very difficult for her to eat). She's just recently been sent back to our rescue she was mildly neglected at her previous home and because eating hurt her she didn't enjoy it. She eats when she's hungry, but she's very nervous about it - now she's getting all her food soaked and is slowly getting more comfortable eating again. So when I attempted to hand-feed her she was _very _tentative. I was using little peach cubes, she decided she didn't like them, so I tried grapes - then sweet tarts - but she just wouldn't take food out of my hand. Finally I soaked up some hay stretcher for her and within just a few minutes I had her eating from my hand. Once she realized feed from my hands was safe to eat she was very eager to please. She learned to target my hand and we worked a bit on backing up. 
So 2 very successful CT lessons today!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> JillyBean did a great job explaining, Clicker training can really only be used to say "Yes" so rather than teaching them _not_ to do something, we teach them what we'd prefer they do.


There's the simple elegance I need to learn  This is exactly what I meant by everything I wrote!



PunksTank said:


> My horse who used to kick walls for food, now only gets food if she's standing politely - wall kicking is ignored (or if it's extensive she gets a swift butt-kicking) - wall kicking is almost completely eliminated now.
> 
> I wanted to add my experience I _was_ able to teach a horse not to buck with CT. The horse always bucked when asked for an upward transition, no pain issues found. It was always an attitude thing, because he would trot on if you kept at him. Because it was a consistent response of him bucking I was able to reinforce with a "Yes" when he didn't buck. This wouldn't have worked if he bucked just for the heck of it whenever he wanted - but because it always happened when asking for upward transitions I was able to pinpoint and reward when he didn't buck. Each time I would ask him for a trot, if he didn't buck I would click right during the smooth transition and after a few trot steps I'd slow back down and treat him. I gradually increased the number of trot steps until he no longer bucked and would trot until I was ready for him to stop. Then we repeated the same for trot-canter transitions, which really only needed a few times to work out.


Thanks for sharing! This was really interesting and beneficial to read! Honestly, while I understand the the what and why behind everything, I think you've got a better grasp on how to put it into practice. I really appreciate the input!



PunksTank said:


> Also I wanted to mention what happened with me today! I started 2 new horses in their Clicker Training, both rescues, one is a 4 month old colt - he figured out targetting in less than 5 minutes, it was incredible! He always has issues focusing, when learning to lead he would get distracted easy and flap around and it took great force and constant corrections _just_ to keep his attention. So I decided to start with CT - I held his attention for a good 20 minutes, he never once got distracted from me, even when one of the kids brought his mom into the next paddock over to work with her some. I stopped after 20 only because I was out of food and wanted to stop while I was ahead. I had him targetting my hand and worked on touching him behind his shoulder. He loves to be scratched on his chest but will not allow anyone to touch behind his shoulder, today I was able to reach up to his girth area with him calm.
> 
> I also started working with a mini, she has serious dental problems and will never be able to eat solid food (she has too many teeth for her face and the vet removed some but it's still very difficult for her to eat). She's just recently been sent back to our rescue she was mildly neglected at her previous home and because eating hurt her she didn't enjoy it. She eats when she's hungry, but she's very nervous about it - now she's getting all her food soaked and is slowly getting more comfortable eating again. So when I attempted to hand-feed her she was _very _tentative. I was using little peach cubes, she decided she didn't like them, so I tried grapes - then sweet tarts - but she just wouldn't take food out of my hand. Finally I soaked up some hay stretcher for her and within just a few minutes I had her eating from my hand. Once she realized feed from my hands was safe to eat she was very eager to please. She learned to target my hand and we worked a bit on backing up.
> So 2 very successful CT lessons today!


Congrats! You have some special circumstances to overcome, so I love hearing about what you're doing! Keep up the good work!


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## jillybean19

*Taking Breaks*

Today I had an "Aha!" moment. Flash was mostly backing up with just the verbal cue, though I had to restrain myself from trying to speed him up before the cue was solid.

I figured out something I was doing to sabotage any learning we were doing: switching activities. Flash was getting bored and distracted, wandering off and playing my games on _his_ time, so I turned this into a "come here" game. While I was getting some progress with both the backing up and "come here" game, I realized what I needed to do more was just to stop. After a while, I decided I really just needed to find a good stopping place and then give Flash a break. I had been trying to do this by switching to brushing him and then going back, but since I was still interacting with him and he was doing different things, he never had real _processing_ time for anything, even when we switched to brushing.

So, I backed him up one or two more times and then gave him an extra treat and walked away. Honestly, it was kind of hard to do because I wanted to keep doing it since he'd done it so well that last time, but walking away was the best thing I could have done.

I had to make some stuff up to do haha. I fed my boarder's horses for her, then went to look for more of Flash's teeth in the tire feeder. As luck would have it, this turned into a great opportunity to train my other horse, who can be very stand-offish when I come to the pasture and will sometimes turn away from me and/or walk away. However, I'm positive that this is all mind games with him. Due to a lot of different things, I don't think he cares about being caught but rather wants _attention_ and wants to play a catching "game" with me. For instance, when I ignore him and go to my other horse, he'll come and see what's going on and lets himself be caught then. This is exactly what happened today: I was inside the tire feeder squatting down looking for teeth, and all the sudden Snickers's face was in mine! He was sniffing me and looking around in the tire with me, interested in what the heck I was doing and why I wasn't giving him attention. When I looked up at him, he even put his muzzle on my cheek and nuzzled me. He's not a touchy-feely horse, so this "intimate" moment with him wasn't something I would take for granted. I rubbed him, then went back to looking for teeth, and then rubbed him again since he was still watching and touching me. Eventually, I stood up and stepped out of the tire and gave him a big hug and rub up and down his his neck. Then, to experiment, I went to another feeder that's upside down and just sat on it looking at the ground. He stood and watched me the entire time, and, after a few moments, came over! He got another big hug and rub. We did this one more time except I went and stood in a random spot in the pasture, and he came up to me again! Yay! So now I finally know what I'm going to do during my breaks with Flash - chill out with Snickers and maybe even do some clicker training. I'm really excited about the relationships I'm building with both of my horses!

Anyway, after this, I went back to the arena and asked Flash to back up two or three times, which he did very well with just the verbal cue. He was all ready to work again after being left alone for a bit and I could sense an attitude and attention change between when I'd walked away before and now. After a few good backs, decided to call it a day! I took Flash back to the pasture, but asked him to stop and back up every now and then, which he did really well given that there were a lot of distractions, including Snickers coming up to him when we were in the pasture and I wanted Flash to back up so I could take his later off. I was really proud of Flash for backing up each time! He's really getting it! I can't wait to see how our progress improves now that I'm going to be chopping our lessons up into mini-lessons so he continues to want to do clicker training and not trying to take breaks when he sees fit, as well as sticking to only one thing at a time!


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## PunksTank

This happens to me too sometimes. One thing doesn't go as planned so I do a bunch of different things and accomplish very little. I think we humans need to walk into the situation with a clear goal in mind. "Today Flash is going to back up 3 steps" you can add and subtract in the moment depending on how it's recieved. If he's not getting it sticking to a step or two might be all you get - if he figures it out fast then expand on it, backing straighter or faster or calmer or more steps. But changing the lesson midway I can imagine would be confusibg unless you clearly change tasks. So switching from a cone target to backing up. 

Also, I get you want to work at liberty but I think a 2 and a hald year old needs a little more focus than that. My 2 and a half year old can barely contain himself - I couldn't imagine keeping his focus at liberty until the skills are learned. Perhaps use a lunge line so he has freedom to come and go, but you can pull him back when he's just being bratty. Just because this is a fun lesson and something he should want, doesn't mean he should choose when it starts and ends. Work with him on lead, when he starts getting disengaged ask a few more solid skils and let him be. Go back later. Theres no need for him to wonder away just cause he's bored. At least thats what I do! 

Also why don't you use CT for your other horse? When I work with the rescues I go between the 3 I'm currently working with by the time I'm done with the 3rd the first is eager for more and has processed what we did last. Sounds like Snikers could benefit from CT too if he's not the eager type, it may help motivate him 

And thank you for your comment before  I think I just know this stuff from working with so many different horses wuth different goals.  you and Flasg seem to be coming along well too! But I certainky don't know it all!!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> This happens to me too sometimes. One thing doesn't go as planned so I do a bunch of different things and accomplish very little. I think we humans need to walk into the situation with a clear goal in mind. "Today Flash is going to back up 3 steps" you can add and subtract in the moment depending on how it's recieved. If he's not getting it sticking to a step or two might be all you get - if he figures it out fast then expand on it, backing straighter or faster or calmer or more steps. But changing the lesson midway I can imagine would be confusibg unless you clearly change tasks. So switching from a cone target to backing up.


Agreed - I'm definitely going to be more focused in the future. I really appreciate the clear application for how I could shape my goals and focus 



PunksTank said:


> Also, I get you want to work at liberty but I think a 2 and a hald year old needs a little more focus than that. My 2 and a half year old can barely contain himself - I couldn't imagine keeping his focus at liberty until the skills are learned. Perhaps use a lunge line so he has freedom to come and go, but you can pull him back when he's just being bratty. Just because this is a fun lesson and something he should want, doesn't mean he should choose when it starts and ends. Work with him on lead, when he starts getting disengaged ask a few more solid skils and let him be. Go back later. Theres no need for him to wonder away just cause he's bored. At least thats what I do!


This is a good point. I think, since I'm doing this on my own, we had so much success last year at liberty that I wanted to continue all our training from liberty. However, as is often true with clicker training, a one step back might open the door to the next 2 (or more!) steps forward.



PunksTank said:


> Also why don't you use CT for your other horse? When I work with the rescues I go between the 3 I'm currently working with by the time I'm done with the 3rd the first is eager for more and has processed what we did last. Sounds like Snikers could benefit from CT too if he's not the eager type, it may help motivate him


Honestly, I don't have a good answer for this. When I got Snickers, he was already green broke and had a good foundation on him, which I took for granted and didn't really focus on training other than to take him out and get him used to trails and conditioning for endurance. It was one of those "if it's not broke, don't fix it" type of things, and I honestly just wanted to get right into endurance and not focus on training. He's an amazing endurance horse in attitude and ability as well as listening - but we've run into problems recently whenever I'm asking him to focus on what he's doing and do it correctly. This started with trying to get him to accept the bit (we usually go bit-less for endurance) and lift his back, but it's turned into the beginning of a complete makeover. I need to improve my riding technique and he needs to learn to listen when I do, so we're taking lessons together. I have been considering doing more clicker training with him, and will probably do so. However, I'm a little nervous because he has a very different personality than Flash. I was just reading about "Horsenality" profiles, and Snickers definitely fits the right-brained profile and I think he's an introvert but need to research it a little more. Either way, he's very stand-offish and *seems* disinterested, but is actually very aware of his surroundings at all times, emotional, and sensitive. He will readily walk away from food - even his favorite beet pulp - if there is something more concerning to him, which doesn't take much. He doesn't let on much, so even though the minimal clicker training we've done in the past (he wouldn't let anyone bridle him and threw his head around, so I taught him to relax and lower his head and be bridled before I would buy him), he definitely seem as "in" to it as Flash. However, now that I getting to know him a little better, he may be very motivated by clicker training and just doesn't express it. He's "too cool" to show he's excited haha. I guess I'll just have to try the clicker training to find out! He's a very odd horse and I've never met another one like him, but he intrigues me and I have a feeling I'll always be learning more about him. He's a puzzle for me to figure out


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Agreed - I'm definitely going to be more focused in the future. I really appreciate the clear application for how I could shape my goals and focus
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good point. I think, since I'm doing this on my own, we had so much success last year at liberty that I wanted to continue all our training from liberty. However, as is often true with clicker training, a one step back might open the door to the next 2 (or more!) steps forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't have a good answer for this. When I got Snickers, he was already green broke and had a good foundation on him, which I took for granted and didn't really focus on training other than to take him out and get him used to trails and conditioning for endurance. It was one of those "if it's not broke, don't fix it" type of things, and I honestly just wanted to get right into endurance and not focus on training. He's an amazing endurance horse in attitude and ability as well as listening - but we've run into problems recently whenever I'm asking him to focus on what he's doing and do it correctly. This started with trying to get him to accept the bit (we usually go bit-less for endurance) and lift his back, but it's turned into the beginning of a complete makeover. I need to improve my riding technique and he needs to learn to listen when I do, so we're taking lessons together. I have been considering doing more clicker training with him, and will probably do so. However, I'm a little nervous because he has a very different personality than Flash. I was just reading about "Horsenality" profiles, and Snickers definitely fits the right-brained profile and I think he's an introvert but need to research it a little more. Either way, he's very stand-offish and *seems* disinterested, but is actually very aware of his surroundings at all times, emotional, and sensitive. He will readily walk away from food - even his favorite beet pulp - if there is something more concerning to him, which doesn't take much. He doesn't let on much, so even though the minimal clicker training we've done in the past (he wouldn't let anyone bridle him and threw his head around, so I taught him to relax and lower his head and be bridled before I would buy him), he definitely seem as "in" to it as Flash. However, now that I getting to know him a little better, he may be very motivated by clicker training and just doesn't express it. He's "too cool" to show he's excited haha. I guess I'll just have to try the clicker training to find out! He's a very odd horse and I've never met another one like him, but he intrigues me and I have a feeling I'll always be learning more about him. He's a puzzle for me to figure out



Flash sounds a LOT like my 2 and a half year old colt - and Snikers sounds JUST like my mini (minus the neurological issues xD). I think you're ignoring own teachings xD CT works for everyone, it's what you focus on that makes the difference. He probably doesn't need to learn to back up or stand still like Flash does - but you could use CT to help break him out of his shell, as well as futher your ground relationship with him. It sounds to me like Flash is your ground, fun horse and Snikers is your mounted work horse. I think you need to put them both at a happy balance between the two. Though personally I'd wait another few months and get a vet clearance before backing Flash again - I'd also probably work on line-driving before mounted work. 
My black mini (Sugar Plum) is very mellow and doesn't seem to enjoy people, but she tolerates us well enough, she knows she is no match and allows us to do as we please - but isn't ever happy about it. She's never acted out. She seems alot like your Snikers. Just today working on CT with her - more than the skills she learned (Which were minimal - learned how to take a treat + how to touch a target) what she _really_ accomplished today was breaking out of her shell. I worked with her a total of 3, 5-10 minute sessions. By the time I walked into her paddock the 3rd time she came _right_ up to me, she was eager and started to actually try - every skill she actually learned she learned in the 3rd session, the previous two I spent just trying to get her to eat food from my hand and staying by me, she'd rather be away if my focus is on her. When I brought her in I was grooming the pony in the stall across from hers, we let her loose in the aisle at this time of day because she's a terrible stall walker and it helps her be calm to be able to walk the aisle. She stood with her head over the door of the pony I was grooming, one she typically doesn't fraternize with - so I smothered her in attention. This is why I use CT for this pony. I could _make_ her into doing anything I want, but seeing her break out of her little shell made it all worth it. I think Snikers will be much like her. I think it would be worth it for you to develop a ground relationship with him too. But of course, don't give up your lessons - that's Very valuable. And don't make every time you spend with him work, spend some time just sitting in his paddock, bring a book or a sketch pad - or the tack you make. 

Back to Flash - he sounds just like my terrible pony!! My Punkin came to me as a violent 'liability' pony who we couldn't rehome, so I kept him  doing CT in his stall I had him targeting, backing up the 18ft his stall would let him back up, chasing and kicking footballs. Then we took it to the aisle of my barn, now he'll fetch the football and get his halter off the hook for me and many other tricks. But when I take his training outside his mind is going a mile a minute. He's looking for grass, he's listening to sounds, he's jumping at trucks going by, he's doing what I'm asking but forgetting half way. THIS sounds like Flash to me. When I tried to work with him at liberty in his paddock it led to me spending a lot of time trying to get him to come back to me and a lot of wasted time. It also taught him that in the barn he was allowed to just ignore me - which he had _never_ done before. So I started putting him on a lunge line. CT is fun - but it's still a lesson and he _needs_ to pay attention to me. I noticed a remarkable improvement, the moment he realized he couldn't just walk away or stop and graze anymore he started focusing on me again (suddenly I became the best option again). I think Flash would do best on a line, once the skills are solid and his attention is back on your it's worth taking them off-lead, but starting off-lead is probably prolonging the training, it really doesn't need to take so long.

Don't get me wrong - I think everything you're doing is GREAT - I'm seriously impressed and I'm no expert, I've only been doing CT a short while. I'm just saying how I would do things to speed things up and to prevent some bad habits  Just from stuff I've learned from my own mistakes xD


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Flash sounds a LOT like my 2 and a half year old colt - and Snikers sounds JUST like my mini (minus the neurological issues xD). I think you're ignoring own teachings xD CT works for everyone, it's what you focus on that makes the difference. He probably doesn't need to learn to back up or stand still like Flash does - but you could use CT to help break him out of his shell, as well as futher your ground relationship with him. It sounds to me like Flash is your ground, fun horse and Snikers is your mounted work horse. I think you need to put them both at a happy balance between the two. Though personally I'd wait another few months and get a vet clearance before backing Flash again - I'd also probably work on line-driving before mounted work.


Yeah, you're right on with all of this, but I was wondering why I would need to wait a few months and get vet clearance before backing him again?



PunksTank said:


> My black mini (Sugar Plum) is very mellow and doesn't seem to enjoy people, but she tolerates us well enough, she knows she is no match and allows us to do as we please - but isn't ever happy about it. She's never acted out. She seems alot like your Snikers. Just today working on CT with her - more than the skills she learned (Which were minimal - learned how to take a treat + how to touch a target) what she _really_ accomplished today was breaking out of her shell. I worked with her a total of 3, 5-10 minute sessions. By the time I walked into her paddock the 3rd time she came _right_ up to me, she was eager and started to actually try - every skill she actually learned she learned in the 3rd session, the previous two I spent just trying to get her to eat food from my hand and staying by me, she'd rather be away if my focus is on her. When I brought her in I was grooming the pony in the stall across from hers, we let her loose in the aisle at this time of day because she's a terrible stall walker and it helps her be calm to be able to walk the aisle. She stood with her head over the door of the pony I was grooming, one she typically doesn't fraternize with - so I smothered her in attention. This is why I use CT for this pony. I could _make_ her into doing anything I want, but seeing her break out of her little shell made it all worth it. I think Snikers will be much like her. I think it would be worth it for you to develop a ground relationship with him too. But of course, don't give up your lessons - that's Very valuable. And don't make every time you spend with him work, spend some time just sitting in his paddock, bring a book or a sketch pad - or the tack you make.


This is what I'm working on with him now, especially since I can't seem to replicate what we did in our lesson just yet so I'd rather not ride and just wait until the next lesson. There are some things I can work on without actually getting on him like posture. Our relationship is... interesting. He definitely trusts me more than anyone else and seems more or less comfortable with me, but sometimes he just get this annoyed expression if I'm asking him to do something he doesn't like, but we'll see what happens. I think I'm going to just alternate clicker sessions between Flash in the arena and Snickers in the pasture (they have their own pen).



PunksTank said:


> Back to Flash - he sounds just like my terrible pony!! My Punkin came to me as a violent 'liability' pony who we couldn't rehome, so I kept him  doing CT in his stall I had him targeting, backing up the 18ft his stall would let him back up, chasing and kicking footballs. Then we took it to the aisle of my barn, now he'll fetch the football and get his halter off the hook for me and many other tricks. But when I take his training outside his mind is going a mile a minute. He's looking for grass, he's listening to sounds, he's jumping at trucks going by, he's doing what I'm asking but forgetting half way. THIS sounds like Flash to me. When I tried to work with him at liberty in his paddock it led to me spending a lot of time trying to get him to come back to me and a lot of wasted time. It also taught him that in the barn he was allowed to just ignore me - which he had _never_ done before. So I started putting him on a lunge line. CT is fun - but it's still a lesson and he _needs_ to pay attention to me. I noticed a remarkable improvement, the moment he realized he couldn't just walk away or stop and graze anymore he started focusing on me again (suddenly I became the best option again). I think Flash would do best on a line, once the skills are solid and his attention is back on your it's worth taking them off-lead, but starting off-lead is probably prolonging the training, it really doesn't need to take so long.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I think everything you're doing is GREAT - I'm seriously impressed and I'm no expert, I've only been doing CT a short while. I'm just saying how I would do things to speed things up and to prevent some bad habits  Just from stuff I've learned from my own mistakes xD


I'd rather learn from yours than make my own! Thanks and I really appreciate the suggestions and insights. We'll be on a line tomorrow and I'm interested in seeing how that changes things.


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Yeah, you're right on with all of this, but I was wondering why I would need to wait a few months and get vet clearance before backing him again?


This is my personal opinion - but I don't like to back horses until their growth plates have fused. Typically this happens around 3 years old, sometimes as late as 5. IMO it can cause lasting damage (more likely to develop arthritis). Perhaps not get a vet, if that's your choice. But I wouldn't back a horse under 3 years old. I'm looking at my 2 and a half year old and he _still_ looks like a baby I wouldn't imagine backing him. If they're still growing up they're too young again - IMO. 
I also like them to have a SOLID foundation. My 2 and a half year old, I'm actually having someone else train because if you can't tell I'm mildly overburdened xD But it will be with me and I can't final decisions kind of thing. I've put the basics of leading and tying and farrier work and all on him with CT. The new trainer will be teaching him to give to pressure and getting him in a bridle and eventually work on line-driving and small amounts of lunging (Walk/trot only). By the time we get through all this he'll be just about old enough to start backing, I'll be backing him as I'm much lighter and more used to it than the new trainer. But at this point I don't expect much of a reaction at all.
The horses I've backed taking all the steps up to it and using CT I've never had any issues. They know all my verbal commands and often I'll have someone on the ground to help reinforce it until they've connected all the dots. 

This is my baby, you can see my mare's big bum in the paddock behind him xD









He has some serious energy xD


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## verona1016

Wow- great thread! I just picked up a clicker at the pet store last weekend and haven't gotten a chance to use it yet, but I'm definitely inspired and looking forward to starting


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> This is my personal opinion - but I don't like to back horses until their growth plates have fused. Typically this happens around 3 years old, sometimes as late as 5. IMO it can cause lasting damage (more likely to develop arthritis). Perhaps not get a vet, if that's your choice. But I wouldn't back a horse under 3 years old. I'm looking at my 2 and a half year old and he _still_ looks like a baby I wouldn't imagine backing him. If they're still growing up they're too young again - IMO.
> I also like them to have a SOLID foundation. My 2 and a half year old, I'm actually having someone else train because if you can't tell I'm mildly overburdened xD But it will be with me and I can't final decisions kind of thing. I've put the basics of leading and tying and farrier work and all on him with CT. The new trainer will be teaching him to give to pressure and getting him in a bridle and eventually work on line-driving and small amounts of lunging (Walk/trot only). By the time we get through all this he'll be just about old enough to start backing, I'll be backing him as I'm much lighter and more used to it than the new trainer. But at this point I don't expect much of a reaction at all.
> The horses I've backed taking all the steps up to it and using CT I've never had any issues. They know all my verbal commands and often I'll have someone on the ground to help reinforce it until they've connected all the dots.
> 
> This is my baby, you can see my mare's big bum in the paddock behind him xD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has some serious energy xD


Thanks for the tips - I didn't realized backing could cause damage if done too early. I think I'll just solidify his backing up a few steps on cue for now, then, and not worry about speed or backing up a lot. Though I want him to hustle backward eventually (for reining), I originally started doing it to teach respect for my space. So, I think a few small steps backward for now will be perfect and then we'll worry about fine-tuning it later. I think I want to work on yielding his shoulder and hind end next. What do you suggest we work on?


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## jillybean19

verona1016 said:


> Wow- great thread! I just picked up a clicker at the pet store last weekend and haven't gotten a chance to use it yet, but I'm definitely inspired and looking forward to starting


Good luck! Let us know how it goes and feel free to ask any questions!


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Thanks for the tips - I didn't realized backing could cause damage if done too early. I think I'll just solidify his backing up a few steps on cue for now, then, and not worry about speed or backing up a lot. Though I want him to hustle backward eventually (for reining), I originally started doing it to teach respect for my space. So, I think a few small steps backward for now will be perfect and then we'll worry about fine-tuning it later. I think I want to work on yielding his shoulder and hind end next. What do you suggest we work on?


OH!!!! I'm SO sorry - I think we had a miscommunication! I meant Backing as in riding! Not backing up. xD I don't think backing up could cause real damage unless it's frantic or dangerous in some way! So sorry!!

Typically I do back up, then yielding hind end, front end, side pass, then giving to the halter/bridle and so on


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> OH!!!! I'm SO sorry - I think we had a miscommunication! I meant Backing as in riding! Not backing up. xD I don't think backing up could cause real damage unless it's frantic or dangerous in some way! So sorry!!
> 
> Typically I do back up, then yielding hind end, front end, side pass, then giving to the halter/bridle and so on


Oh lol ok that makes sense - Then I will continue as planned  yeah, I'm not going to get on and ride for a while (I want to teach him everything from the ground first) - that's what Snickers is for haha. Of course it sounds like I won't be riding him for a while either. Honestly, I'm not enjoying riding either one - Flash isn't ready and when I'm riding Snickers I can't figure out our rhythm unless my instructor is here, so I'm going to wait until she comes or just not worry about "discipline" if I have to ride haha. We're functional, but could improve on a lot. I'm having a lot more fun building my relationship with both right now without even getting in the saddle.


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Oh lol ok that makes sense - Then I will continue as planned  yeah, I'm not going to get on and ride for a while (I want to teach him everything from the ground first) - that's what Snickers is for haha. Of course it sounds like I won't be riding him for a while either. Honestly, I'm not enjoying riding either one - Flash isn't ready and when I'm riding Snickers I can't figure out our rhythm unless my instructor is here, so I'm going to wait until she comes or just not worry about "discipline" if I have to ride haha. We're functional, but could improve on a lot. I'm having a lot more fun building my relationship with both right now without even getting in the saddle.


LOL I have this syndrome too!! I've had my mare a year and a half and only rode her 5 times - not because she hasn't been great, but because I just love working with her on the ground xD


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## PunksTank

I wanted to share some fun news ^^ Today my pony learned to stand - in 5 seconds flat with CT! Seriously, it took him just 3-4 times before he put things together, I was able to drop the lead and walk all around the barn with him standing still. If you know my pony that's tough for him! He's a spunky little brat xD He doesn't do 'still'.
He also practiced kicking his ball today  I got a tiny video of it!
20130216 142057 - YouTube


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## verona1016

I finally introduced my horse to the clicker on Friday and I'm really impressed with how easily he caught on to it. I normally give him treats while I'm getting him ready for a ride, so I "charged the clicker" by clicking before giving him the treats as I normally would.

His previous owner taught him a few tricks, one of which is a "cat stretch" that I've _never _been able to get him to do on command- he'll do it on his own, usually while in the cross ties, and I've tried to connect that trick to the word "stretch" (which is the same word his previous owner used) with no luck. He did the stretch on his own a couple times on Friday, so I did what I had tried in the past- tell him "stretch" as soon as it looks like he might do it, and give him a treat when he does it and tell him "good boy"- but this time I added the click at the apex of the stretch and he figured it out! He did the stretch on command twice in a row at the end of the night. Today I went to the barn to feed, so I didn't have any time to really work with him, but I went into his stall, told him "stretch" and he did with no hesitation!

I didn't actually intend to do that with him yet- I was going to just try and introduce him to targeting, but I was so pleased with him catching on to the stretch that I decided to put off targeting until our next session  I'm really excited to see what else I can do with this!


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## Foxtail Ranch

This is really fun to have a CT thread where we can ask each other questions and share our successes! Jillybean, you have done a very nice job explaining how all this works. 

I have been working with April, the mare in my avatar, on collection, giving to the bit and responding to leg cues under saddle with CT. Yesterday when backing up, she tucked her chin in completely as she backed. I have never seen her so soft at the poll! Oh course I CTed when she did and gave her a jackpot, so she did it again and again. It was awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Verona, congrats on your success too. Having a cue for that stretch will be so handy! I've been working on stretches for April because she has a cold back that can get very sore. I would love to see a video of your horse doing a cat stretch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eolith

This is definitely something I want to try. I have used treats to motivate my mustang to do some things like picking up his feet, tolerating the spray bottle, letting me catch him, etc... but I haven't used an actual clicker up to this point and I think it has cost me some efficiency, clarity... and encouraged a little more mouthy type behavior. I think after the very initial "charging the click" stage we're going to have to work on backing off / giving space before getting the treat so he's not prone to being so nosey.

I do have one question for those of you who use CT more extensively: What happens when you have a horse that wants nothing to do with you... or one who doesn't know what a treat/grain is? For example, an ungentled mustang. It took me a month or more before I managed to convince my mustang that A: treats and grain are yummy things meant for eating, and B: it's okay to take treats from a human hand. In this case, you can't really start the clicking and training until they start accepting the reward as a reward (rather than suspecting it might be poison, or that we'll attack as soon as they reach out to take it)... right?

((I am so going to try some of this with my crazy dogs too!!))


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## jillybean19

*The fearful horse*



Eolith said:


> I do have one question for those of you who use CT more extensively: What happens when you have a horse that wants nothing to do with you... or one who doesn't know what a treat/grain is? For example, an ungentled mustang. It took me a month or more before I managed to convince my mustang that A: treats and grain are yummy things meant for eating, and B: it's okay to take treats from a human hand. In this case, you can't really start the clicking and training until they start accepting the reward as a reward (rather than suspecting it might be poison, or that we'll attack as soon as they reach out to take it)... right?


Here's where a combination of training methods AND paying close attention to your horse's "reward system" is very beneficial. I would try a few things and see which works best:

First, my first horse, long before clicker training ever entered my life, was roped as a baby from the herd of broodmares and essentially fought to exhaustion then loaded up in the trailer to go home. Not exactly a wild-caught mustang, but close haha. We spent the next few weeks simply approaching the stall, standing still in the stall, offering treats (and leaving them when they weren't taken), etc. just to teach him we were friendly. eventually we started brushing when he got more used to us. With clicker training, I would see how he reacted to the noise, first, before I tried actually using it to train. A very timid horse might spook in a small, anxious situation like this while I'm still teaching him that I'm a "safe" person. This is simply a comfort-exercise, not training. Once he was comfortable taking treats directly from my hand, I would begin associating that with a click.

Of course, another variation of this would be to approach the stall and just stand there offering the treat (or even just his hay!) but not staring at the horse since that can be uncomfortable for him. As soon as he looks at you, click and set the treat where he can get it and walk away. Even though you're not actually handing the treat to him, he'll eventually learn to associate the behavior with the click and the presentation of a reward. In this case, he gets two rewards - the food is left for him AND you leave, so he's more comfortable. Once he's consistently looking at you when you approach, wait for him to take a step. If he takes one toward you, then great! If it doesn't seem like he's going to ever take a step toward you, start clicking for any steps, and then work on taking steps toward you later. Eventually, you'll want to get him to approach you and reach for/investigate food/an object you're holding (I'd start with something that sticks out from your hand, like a target or even just a few stalks of hay), and finally click for whenever he takes food from your hand.

Another approach, or even the next step after this, is to move to the round-pen where he won't feel quite as trapped as in a stall and do approach and retreat with the clicker. Depending on what training styles you're more familiar, I would approach/retreat/join up (ask the other NH pros about this if you need to), and click whenever he looked at you just like in the stall. You may have to start by just standing in the middle of the round pen with inviting and non-aggressive body language and holding a flake of hay, click for a look, and then leave a flake of hay on the ground where you were standing and then leave. Again, there's a double reward and two types of training going on - the immediate reward is you leaving, but he's also learning to associate you with giving him good and edible things. Honestly, you could even start without a food reward at all - just click whenever you retreat and he'll learn to associate the click with the reward (though you'll want to change this reward later when it no longer becomes rewarding for him when you leave since he likes working with you  ). Depending on the training methods you're using with the clicker training, you could take this to where he looks at you and stands still while letting you approach, asking him to approach you, or a combination where he approaches you and then you click and approach him. Personally, once my horse was comfortable with me approaching to give him a treat, I would get the horse to take a few steps toward me, then click and take the treat to him.

Finally, in the pasture, you could do what I'm doing with my stand-offish horse now and just go chill in the pasture, then click and treat whenever your horse approaches/comes to you. Most horses will do this just out of curiosity to see what you're doing, but a horse like you're describing might find a spot far enough away where he feels semi-safe ignoring you, so that might not be the best place to start, but rather finish.

I know that was long, but hopefully that gave you what you needed! It also illustrates very well that *clicker training provides a variety of approaches and works with a variety of other methods*. The limits of clicker training are only your imagination and diligence!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> LOL I have this syndrome too!! I've had my mare a year and a half and only rode her 5 times - not because she hasn't been great, but because I just love working with her on the ground xD


That's one of those things that I've found I really like about CT - ground work doesn't feel like a chore anymore, but rather a strategy game. What is my goal? What are the steps to get there? And how am I going to communicate those steps to my horse? If I can figure out the answers to those three questions, I can set out to train my horse to do just about anything, and he loves playing my game with me!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> I wanted to share some fun news ^^ Today my pony learned to stand - in 5 seconds flat with CT! Seriously, it took him just 3-4 times before he put things together, I was able to drop the lead and walk all around the barn with him standing still. If you know my pony that's tough for him! He's a spunky little brat xD He doesn't do 'still'.
> He also practiced kicking his ball today  I got a tiny video of it!
> 20130216 142057 - YouTube


That's so cool! Hmmm that gives me an idea. I'm really excited to get home and start doing my alternate clicker training with Flash in the arena and Snickers in the pasture. You'd think that the pasture would be much more distracting, but Snickers is much more comfortable there than in the arena. My main goal at first is simply to work on our relationship and help him finish coming out of his shell with me, so I think I'll work with him on games like these, where I don't have to put any pressure and it's only positive. I really think that playing "silly" games will help him get used to trying new things and feeling good about working with me before we work on his issues, which will involve a level of discomfort for him (evidenced by his pinched, snarly nose face when he's annoyed but compliant lol). Granted, over the last year he has learned to more or less trust me and wants to interact with me, but he's still very hesitant and stand-offish at times, always weary about whether he's going to like what we're doing. Clicker training may just be the answer to that!


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## jillybean19

verona1016 said:


> I finally introduced my horse to the clicker on Friday and I'm really impressed with how easily he caught on to it. I normally give him treats while I'm getting him ready for a ride, so I "charged the clicker" by clicking before giving him the treats as I normally would.
> 
> His previous owner taught him a few tricks, one of which is a "cat stretch" that I've _never _been able to get him to do on command- he'll do it on his own, usually while in the cross ties, and I've tried to connect that trick to the word "stretch" (which is the same word his previous owner used) with no luck. He did the stretch on his own a couple times on Friday, so I did what I had tried in the past- tell him "stretch" as soon as it looks like he might do it, and give him a treat when he does it and tell him "good boy"- but this time I added the click at the apex of the stretch and he figured it out! He did the stretch on command twice in a row at the end of the night. Today I went to the barn to feed, so I didn't have any time to really work with him, but I went into his stall, told him "stretch" and he did with no hesitation!
> 
> I didn't actually intend to do that with him yet- I was going to just try and introduce him to targeting, but I was so pleased with him catching on to the stretch that I decided to put off targeting until our next session  I'm really excited to see what else I can do with this!


I'm really curious to see a video of this too! That's awesome how fast your horse picked up on it. The only caution I would have is one thing I'm still figuring out and that's adding a non-explicit cue to the behavior (one that doesn't naturally go with that behavior, like a verbal cue). In the future, you may have to teach the behavior first and then work on perfecting your cue later. My approach to this so far has been to always give the cue first, but understand that, even though he knows the behavior when cued other ways that make sense (like pressure), it might take a lot longer for him to get the verbal cue. I'm curious to see how that works for you in the future since, like I said, I'm still working on getting the verbal cues which are really abstract for horses and so later acquired.

Anyway, congrats and that sounds like such a cool experience! And welcome to the clicker training world!


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## jillybean19

tiffanyodonnell said:


> This is really fun to have a CT thread where we can ask each other questions and share our successes! Jillybean, you have done a very nice job explaining how all this works.
> 
> I have been working with April, the mare in my avatar, on collection, giving to the bit and responding to leg cues under saddle with CT. Yesterday when backing up, she tucked her chin in completely as she backed. I have never seen her so soft at the poll! Oh course I CTed when she did and gave her a jackpot, so she did it again and again. It was awesome!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! I've been excited to get to the "practical under-saddle" stuff, so thanks for sharing! It'll be a while before I'm there myself, even though everything I'm doing right now is to prepare for being under saddle. You reminded me that, once I've got the backing behavior down, I want to teach Flash to drop his head when backing - which would be easily done from the ground by targeting! That way, when I do ask him to back under saddle, the "head down" will translate and I won't have to ask with the reins too much.


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## jillybean19

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Verona, congrats on your success too. Having a cue for that stretch will be so handy! I've been working on stretches for April because she has a cold back that can get very sore. I would love to see a video of your horse doing a cat stretch!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmmm now you've got me thinking about teaching stretching for endurance! That kind of thing never occurred to me, probably because no one I know around here does clicker training. I'd love to see that stretch and hear about anyone else's ideas about teaching stretches that would help an endurance horse!


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## shawnakarrasch

I must say how refreshing it is to see a post about positive reinforcement/clicker training that isn't erroneous or coming from a negative place(no pun intended). I must admit I haven't read all the posts in detail...but well done you guys!

If you are interested, I have a few thoughts to share that may help you out. One is about the comment about the horses walking off and not focusing. I suggest starting with very short and very rewarding sessions. You want to walk away with them still wanting more. So get a few good approximations, jack pot, then end the session. This will help to get a better work ethic and excitement about learning. if we are going on until they walk away, then we are overdoing it and can burn them out. You will also teach them that it is okay to walk away.

I also, want to stress teaching relaxation as part of the training equation. So the 2+ year old horse needs to start to learn impulse control. That works out best if it comes from him, not created by equipment. But at this point he doesn't probably understand this concept. It needs to be taught in very small increments. It will just be too hard for the little guy to contain himself! After he understands, and is solid, with targeting, I would use the target to help him to lead nicely with you. The target becomes the new halter and lead rope. As this is going good, you can add more downward transitions and halting. Then mix it in with the movement to give him a break from the more challenging task of standing still. While in the beginning of this exercise you will have been reinforcing walking quietly with you, at this point I would start to put a higher rate of reinforcement on the downward transitions (everything needs to be trained to maintain balance). I use this for teaching young horses to lead....well, it is more like a "heel" that we do with dogs. After they are good at following me and staying with me, then I introduce the halter and lead rope. They know what to do so the introduction of the equipment isn't so worrisome for them...it is more of an incidental.

Also, always think what you may be able to do to set them up for success. With you energetic youngster, doing the quiet sessions after he has had play time will probably help him to be a little more relaxed, making the standing quietly more likely to happen.

One other thought, a common mistake I hear from people, don't skimp on the early lesson of minding their manners and keeping their head away from your space. If you move on to the target too soon you will most encounter an issue down the road with them encroaching on your space. Usually the first behavior that they learn with +R training becomes their default behavior. You want them, when in doubt to, to go back to the calm relaxed stance with their head out of your space.

I hope this helps out a bit. It sounds like you guys are doing great I just thought I would share some of my experiences.

Keep up the good work!


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## Foxtail Ranch

Shawna, thank you for your reminders! Balancing movement exercises with stillness exercises is very important. When I first started I didn't know that and made my mare overly sensitive. She would dance with me and not stand still! Now she is balanced. I will also work on the default behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Shawna, thank you for your reminders! Balancing movement exercises with stillness exercises is very important. When I first started I didn't know that and made my mare overly sensitive. She would dance with me and not stand still! Now she is balanced. I will also work on the default behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you so much Shawna, honestly I learned almost everything from your videos!! Thank you for all your insight 

Tiffany, I had the same issue with my pony. I had taught him so many fast paced tricks, backing up, touching the target, chasing the ball, kicking the ball. That eventually he wouldn't even pause to breathe. As soon as he got one click he was frantically searching for what to do next - he'd back up a step, then come back forward, then look all around for my target or the ball. He'd be frantic. So just the other day I taught him 'Stand' and spent a while giving him pretty big jackpots when he stood while I walked around or away from him. Now he stands patiently while waiting to find out what the next skill I'm going to ask of him is. It took a while for him to learn he doesn't need to be 'doing' something all the time. I think from now on, with all my horses, I'm going to mix moving skills and stationary ones to reinforce that they don't need to be searching for the next skill all the time. 

I love this thread!!! I'm so happy to have more experienced CT trainers on here to help  
Shawna, I love your point about teaching the skill before adding the equipment, I never thought of that. Most horses I work with at least know how to lead, except my new mini who was more 'forced' to lead than really understands what she's supposed to do. I think it would do her some real good to learn it without the tools first. I feel like that would make it even stronger, you wouldn't need to worry if a tool broke or went missing.

Also, Shawna, what do you do in situations where grass can't be avoided? I've just been using a lead or a lunge line to stop them from just eating the grass. But is there a better way? All my paddocks are all grass and my one area that has footing like a riding ring has no fence (so I use the lunge line there, I don't need them running off to the neighbors hay field ) but what could I do in their paddock?


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## shawnakarrasch

Tiffany, I am glad I could help. I find we all need reminders now and then, I know I do! It sounds like you guys are doing a great job with your horses...and finding that balance.


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## shawnakarrasch

PunksTank said:


> Thank you so much Shawna, honestly I learned almost everything from your videos!! Thank you for all your insight
> 
> Also, Shawna, what do you do in situations where grass can't be avoided? I've just been using a lead or a lunge line to stop them from just eating the grass. But is there a better way? All my paddocks are all grass and my one area that has footing like a riding ring has no fence (so I use the lunge line there, I don't need them running off to the neighbors hay field ) but what could I do in their paddock?


Well this made me smile!! I am always here to help out along the way.

Okay, for the grass dilemma...this is a challenge for a lot of people. Especially if being on grass is novel for the horse. 

Let's break it down to the basics...If ANY behavior increases in frequency then something in the environment is reinforcing the behavior. In this case it is pretty obvious what that is, your horse is finding it more reinforcing to eat the grass then to do the session. Also, it is usually such a habit for them that they think grass=graze.

So the best thing I have found is to recognize his choice to ignore the grass as a behavior, and a really important one. At Sea World we would teach the sea lions to ignore a fish on their plate for a dinner sequence in the show, naturally.  At first it was a challenge for them and as they began to get a strong reinforcement history with ignoring the fish it became easy. 

The trick is to make it more reinforcing to ignore the grass (and pay attention to you) than it is to eat the grass. I encourage you to start with really short sessions, using the target will help. For now, I recommend starting him outside the paddock(you may use a halter and lead rope for this part) ask him to target and reinforce his good response. This will help him focus on the target before you enter the paddock. Next I would take him in and ask him to target again, right away before he has too much time to go to his old habit of grazing. 

Since the target probably has a strong reinforcement history associated with it he is more likely to pay more attention to it at this point, thereby setting him up for success. I suggest promptly giving him a jack pot for this correct decision, and do it off of the grass, take him outside the gate and put the food in a feed bucket. That way you are not drawing more attention to the grass. Let that be the end of the first session and you may follow it up by putting him back in the paddock to graze once he is done with his food. This way he still gets time on the grass but it comes as a reward for paying attention to you. I would be sure he has a signal/discriminator of some sort that tells him it is his free time and not session time. 

When that is going good and you feel like he is more focused on you, I recommend asking him to take a step forward to the target once inside the paddock. You can also probably drop the targeting outside of the paddock since he now is knowing what to expect. You are also giving him more leeway and asking him to make a decision...again I would reinforce his good decision with a magnitude feed. What we are doing is building up a new and improved reinforcement history with the choice to ignore the grass. 

As he gets more interested in the new behavior, he will begin to break his old habit of grazing. It is like scales that are out of balance...there is currently too much weight on the "eat the grass" side of the scale and not enough on the "ignore the grass" side. Every time we get the chance to reinforce the correct decision, we have put more weight on the good scale. By giving jackpots for the smallest decision we will make a bigger impact. 

As he gets stronger and stronger with his focus and attentiveness, you can slowly build up more time. As you are building up longer and longer, I would still, occasionally, jackpot the early decision and leave it there...just like you did in the beginning. This way he will stay sharp and never know when it might happen.

By taking him out of the paddock to start and end, we are making a clear beginning and end to the session with no grazing in between. We are also starting this process by doing something called back chaining. At first it is target/exit/Jack pot. Next we add take a step then target/exit/JP. Next, walk a few steps/target/exit/JP, etc. The idea is we make the end very strong through reinforcement as well as rehearsal. He will know what is coming at the end and want to get there. The more an animal gets to practice a behavior (good or bad) the stronger it becomes in their repertoire of behaviors. 

Also, another thing to consider, and you may have tried this already...using a high value treat. Something that he really likes to eat. It could be that he prefers the grass to what he gets from the sessions. Also, you may pick some grass ahead of time and have that as a treat too.

Finally, once you have been making progress, if he makes the incorrect decision to eat the grass instead of pay attention to you, I would take him home and try him again later. You will be setting healthy boundaries, telling him that isn't acceptable. I am pretty sure that at some point he will revert back and try eating the grass, it is like they are checking to see if this is okay. Don't let it worry you, sometimes when they try the wrong thing, it gives them the chance to rule that option out. It is often a part of the learning process. As long as we are consistent with our reaction they will sort it out. 

That is all I can think of right now...there are always more options but this is what has worked best for me. I hope it gives you some ideas. :0)


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## PunksTank

Thank you so much that is _very_ thorough!! I will absolutely work on that. My mare comes to me when I tell her it's time to 'play' (in fact she usually comes running when she see's her halter or bridle) I'll click+treat when she comes over (usually something really great). If I ask her simple things that she knows she'll stay completely with me, or simple new things she'll stay too, it's only when she doesn't figure it out right away or the skill is too much work, like trotting on lead (she's not a fan of movement ). Usually when it's too hard she just reverts to eating grass. So I suppose I ought to work on breaking things into smaller steps or have more clear cues. The worst was when I was teaching her to Stand - she just had _no_ idea what I wanted. It took about 6, 5-10 minute sessions! But now she stops on a dime at the word, even if we're trotting and I say stand, but I keep going, she stands! So it was worth the work, but it was tough with grass - I did end up using a lead to stop her from eating then. But I suppose I should have broken it into smaller steps and provided better rewards. 

Thank you so much! This is why I love this thread ^^

Also Shawna (or anyone else), I'm working with a mini, who has terrible teeth, she has been seen by a dentist numerous times in the past month (Since we got her) but there is little hope for them to be normal. So she can't eat anything solid, not even anything tiny, she only gets soaked food. She also had _no clue_ what food was if it was in your hand, even if you took it right out of her dish and fed it she just had no idea what to do about the situation - perhaps she thought if it's in your hand it's yours and since your in charge I shouldn't take it. It took me a great deal of time, I tried little cubes of peaches, applesauce, grapes, cranberries (which probably would have been too solid anyway), bananas, even soaked hay cubes and soaked hay stretcher - finally she ate a little hay stretcher from my hand. As she's terrified of humans and would rather be 40 feet away than being invasive I opted to teach her the target first and work on space later if it ever became an issue, as she was never in my space I couldn't see how to teach her not to be  Anyway, she figured out the skill very fast, but as it can sometimes be painful for her to eat it's not a very strong motivator - she worked for about 5 minutes before I let her be, but she wasn't like the others eager to work and not wanting to stop. She's also pretty terrified of being handled - she's so tiny I don't think she was ever taught anything, just kind of forced/bent into doing what ever it was. So I can't use scratches or anything as a reward. I think soft food will work, but does anyone have any better suggestion? Some other soft food that she may actually want? Will time with her getting used to hand feeding fix it?


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## Foxtail Ranch

Shawna, is this "back chaining" related to giving them a jackpot at the end of the session? I have used that before and have moved away from using it because I did not understand it and know what the benefit. How does it benefit the training?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

What about molasses or honey? One of my horses likes those honey straws we buy at the grange. I put one end in her lips and squeeze, and she smacks hers lips like a maniac
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> What about molasses or honey? One of my horses likes those honey straws we buy at the grange. I put one end in her lips and squeeze, and she smacks hers lips like a maniac
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll try those thank you!! I could probably let her lick it, which wouldn't hurt her mouth like mooshy food might  Thanks so much!!!


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## shawnakarrasch

Oops, I posted the same post twice. I need to develop some forum skills!


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## shawnakarrasch

Tiffany, That is a good question. The jackpot is part of the back chaining equation. Something to keep in mind...when we are training a behavior it begins developing a reinforcement history. So a behavior that they have been doing successfully, has a great association for them. You know how your horse (mine too) will often times offer to perform their newest behavior even when we aren't asking for it? This is because of they have developed a good reinforcement history with the new behavior and they now know it can earn then a reward (when done when we ask!) Back chaining is part of this whole premise. They have had a lot of success with the end behavior and they know that the next part is very likely going to get reinforced. It becomes a conditioned reinforcer since the classic conditioning never stops. All parts of the training take on a reinforcing value. So by building on the end of the chain, we are doing all we can to ensure that they will respond correctly. It can also serve as a type of reward when we are working on something new or challenging. Moving into familiar well established territory can be very comforting for them. We used back chaining a lot with the otters (short attention spans). Ideally, I prefer that my horses are alert and watchful so I can mix things up, without having routines. But in the beginning the predictability that back chaining brings to the training equation can help to get more success. I tend to use it in the more difficult situations. As they become more solid with the other elements, I often times fade the chain out.

I hope that clears things up a bit. It is one of those things that can be hard to wrap your head around.


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## shawnakarrasch

PunksTank,

Here is something to consider with your mini...One of the things I have used with worried, feral and un-handled horses to build trust is: I will start by sitting on the ground at feeding time. Of course this is if you feel that it is safe to do with them. Being on the ground creates a lot of security for most horses so I imagine it would be especially true for a mini who may have been man handled. 

I will have a feed tub with their food out in front of me. As they get comfortable I will start drawing the feed tub closer and closer. I might take days to do this. It all depends on their comfort level, since they always set the pace. As I get the feed tub in my lap, I start to hold my hand at the bottom of the feed. I don't move it, I just allow them to eat their way down to my hand. When that doesn't seem to phase them, I begin to raise my hand slightly until eventually they are eating out of my hand and I can reach away from the bucket to feed them. 

Next, I squat instead of sitting on the ground (this part can make your knees ache!) As that goes good, I move to standing. Through this process they have usually built up a good deal of trust. 

Also, for skittish horses, I never try to reach to touch them. Instead I teach them to approach me. I learned this one with baby Beluga Whales. At first, I will also retreat somewhat. This seems to embolden them too. As they are consistently and calmly coming into my space, I will begin to hold my hand up, keeping it still. So they may be coming to my hand-held target or even a hand target, but my other hand will be held where it would touch their shoulder if they walked directly toward me. They usually sidle away and come from the side at first. I still reinforce this. Eventually they start to be less wary of your hand and will get closer and closer. When they actually make contact, I will jack pot and leave it there. Continuing on with this until I can rub them slightly and I will keep increasing the amount of touch and movement.

Keep in mind that the whole process of worrying about us humans can be very taxing on them. So I try to keep them short and sweet. Giving them a break is also a big reinforcement. I like to teach them that if they give me just a little tiny bit, then they will be rewarded and we will end with the challenging work.

Anyway, that's what I have to say about that.


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## PunksTank

Thank you Shawna so much for your time!! I really appreciate the well-thought-out answers, it really helps.
I've done a great deal of sitting with this poor little pony. She's kind enough to let me brush her too, because she was so skinny she had grown a terrible winter coat, on gaining weight she shed it out in chunks. She's ok with me brushing her when I'm crouched down, she'll allow me to do anything, but she's clearly very taxed by the event, so I try to keep it as short and sweet as possible. I also spend time just sitting, not asking anything of her. 
It seems she just tolerates us - I want her to like people. She's so sweet and gentle.
She also paces _all the time_. She can't stop. She circles her stall all day and night - at first I thought it was because she couldn't see the horses over her door. So I made her a tiny door, then I thought it was cause she couldn't see her particular friend so I moved her friend across from her, then I thought the stall wasn't big enough so I let her into the aisle - she paces all the time, even in her paddock - it's like she can't stop moving! Even while she's eating she grabs a bite and circles a few times and grabs more bites. I wonder if she's taught herself this for some reason... Like our gelding who thinks he needs to pee before every meal. I wish she would stop, I feel like she must be terrified. She doesn't like her other pony friends, they groom her and she tries to get away. She was kept with sheep and goats, but never in the same pen. I think she is very damaged and just want to do what I can to bring a sense of 'normalcy' to her life. Which is why I wanted to try some CT, bring her out of her shell. She is coming around - I think with honey she should be much better! I think she needs someone with more time, I'm only there for her twice a week - but I'm the only trainer at the rescue and the kids I teach all have their 'favorites' picked. I'm hoping time will heal her more.


Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread! I'm curious to hear how everyone else's ponies are doing


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## shawnakarrasch

Awww, she makes me feel sad. I want her to find some pleasure in her life...a safe harbor where she can relax. I think you are doing great. Just stick with it and remember...if any behavior is increasing in frequency than something is reinforcing it. It sounds like she is getting better, albeit slowly, so you are one the right track. One thing that may help such a sensitive little gal is to watch how you are feeling. I know that sounds kind of ethereal but she is probably feeling every little mood shift. As she gets pacing and you feel worried, it may add to her tension. You may have been aware of this already but they really do respond to our moods/energy. Just thought it was worth a mention. One other question...do you think she might be in pain? Always good to rule out any possible physical cause. Keep up it up...you are good for her.


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## PunksTank

Shawna - thank you, good to know I'm on the right track  Unfortunately I'm not her daily care taker, the woman who is, is about the most wonderful woman in the world, but she's raging with emotions all the time - I think that may really be affecting her. As well as the horse in the stall next to her (wanna talk about PTSD? This poor mare was a spanish dancing horse) She has outbursts as well - involving lunging out and biting the wall, on the mini's side. She is the type to 'revert to a safe place' and hide inside, she goes numb, but when she comes too she explodes, she'll kick out and bite the wall... which is how she ended up with us, she kicked through a stall wall and got hung up. A young volunteer was working with her and she was doing much better, but the girl found boys and got a drivers license, haven't seen her since 

As for pain - yes the vet has given her a thorough look over, she does have ulcers which are being tended to and her face hurts her a great deal because of her teeth, which the vet is gradually removing the ones that cause the most pain, but aside from pulling all of them there's little we can do. She and our other mini come from a farm where a man wanted to make $1million off breeding minis, when just a couple stallions and a few mares turned into close to 200 horses, inbreeding and genetic troubles were just awful. This one has a dishy little face with teeth far too big for her head. The other is blind and a little deformed, a twisted front leg, but never been lame and _loves_ CT!! The blind one has been with us since 2 years old, the other one we rehomed to a family we trusted, but the woman came down with Alzheimer's and the kids didn't step up for her care, in one of her lucid moments she returned the pony to us  

Sorry to bring everything down!! I want to hear some happy stories  She is getting better, but is far from perfect. I think she just needs more time and joy in her life.


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## verona1016

jillybean19 said:


> Hmmmm now you've got me thinking about teaching stretching for endurance! That kind of thing never occurred to me, probably because no one I know around here does clicker training. I'd love to see that stretch and hear about anyone else's ideas about teaching stretches that would help an endurance horse!


Ask and you shall receive  Garzo in all of his stretching glory: 





It's not as obvious in soft footing as it is on the concrete of the cross ties, but he rocks all the way onto the heels of his front feet with the toes lifted off the ground! It looks like a very satisfying stretch


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## Saddlebag

Yesterday I was watching a training dvd whereby the trainer would ride each horse to clarify to the rider what she was asking. There were a lot of pats and "good boys" which didn't seem to register with the horse. What I came to realize was that the previously collected horse was now walking on a loose rein or even allowed to stand while the praises were being given. The horse would have been rewarded with the release, not the pats and good boys.


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## jillybean19

Saddlebag said:


> Yesterday I was watching a training dvd whereby the trainer would ride each horse to clarify to the rider what she was asking. There were a lot of pats and "good boys" which didn't seem to register with the horse. What I came to realize was that the previously collected horse was now walking on a loose rein or even allowed to stand while the praises were being given. The horse would have been rewarded with the release, not the pats and good boys.


DINGDINGDING we have a winner!


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## jillybean19

verona1016 said:


> Ask and you shall receive  Garzo in all of his stretching glory:
> Garzo Performing His "Cat Stretch" - YouTube
> 
> It's not as obvious in soft footing as it is on the concrete of the cross ties, but he rocks all the way onto the heels of his front feet with the toes lifted off the ground! It looks like a very satisfying stretch


LOVE it! That's so cool! Makes me want to stretch


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## Foxtail Ranch

shawnakarrasch said:


> Tiffany, That is a good question. The jackpot is part of the back chaining equation. Something to keep in mind...when we are training a behavior it begins developing a reinforcement history. So a behavior that they have been doing successfully, has a great association for them. You know how your horse (mine too) will often times offer to perform their newest behavior even when we aren't asking for it? This is because of they have developed a good reinforcement history with the new behavior and they now know it can earn then a reward (when done when we ask!) Back chaining is part of this whole premise. They have had a lot of success with the end behavior and they know that the next part is very likely going to get reinforced. It becomes a conditioned reinforcer since the classic conditioning never stops. All parts of the training take on a reinforcing value. So by building on the end of the chain, we are doing all we can to ensure that they will respond correctly. It can also serve as a type of reward when we are working on something new or challenging. Moving into familiar well established territory can be very comforting for them. We used back chaining a lot with the otters (short attention spans). Ideally, I prefer that my horses are alert and watchful so I can mix things up, without having routines. But in the beginning the predictability that back chaining brings to the training equation can help to get more success. I tend to use it in the more difficult situations. As they become more solid with the other elements, I often times fade the chain out.
> 
> I hope that clears things up a bit. It is one of those things that can be hard to wrap your head around.


Thank you Shawna!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WildcatandI

If any of you working with wild horses or abused horses are interested I've been keeping a blog on the gentling process (using solely clicker training and as little pressure/release as possible) of the most recent mustang I've been working with. I have some video footage starting her first few days from BLM to now. You do need to make a free account to read the blog since it's on my distance learning site, but if you're interested in CT you might enjoy that anyway  The URL is Wild Heart Horsemanship - Home


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## PunksTank

Wow Wildcat - I've always been so impressed by the videos you posted, I'll definitely be watching that blog 

Jillybean - how are you ponies doing?


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## PunksTank

I have _GOT_ to post up my experience today. I have to say the first half of this will be hard for me to admit publicly - but I'm SO proud of what we did today I just have to explain!!

So my mare has been learning to go in and out of a new stall, this one travels through the aisle of the barn and out a slightly narrow back door. The first few days she's been fantastic - some slight hesitations, but each time easily moved on. 
For the past few weeks I've just been feeling crumby about CT - perhaps it's reading all the negative posts about it, or talking to other trainers in real life - I've just been dissuaded. So I've been working on my mare's other skills using pressure+release. We practiced lunging and line-driving in her new paddock and she's doing very well. She's definitely not as thrilled about her job and not as eager to work - she used to come running when she saw I had her bridle or lunge line or surcingle. Now she'll even walk away a bit, always lets me catch her - but makes it clear she's not really into it.
But regardless of her obvious opinions I carried on - She's lunging very well, making smooth transitions walk/trot/halt - I never canter horses on a lunge. Her voice commands are definitely getting solid. I also worked on her with leaving her paddock and getting further from home. 3 days ago I took her just out for a walk around all the paddocks, the next day down to my riding ring (there's no fence around it - just footing, so it's not actually ideal for working in over a paddock). She continued to do well - she learned about my large white barrels, which she'll eventually use as obstacles. The next day we went as far as my neighbor's hay field, then to their farm area (they have a large path cleared for their trucks to move through - and being winter everything is dead). She continued to impress me, while she's tense and nervous she has not spooked or lost control of her manners for even a half a second. I'm a proud mommy!
And then tonight happened. She went out to her new paddock, on our way in we made a trip to the neighbor's farm, walked around, then came back to the barn. My fiance was cooking upstairs (we live in an apartment upstairs of the barn) she's used to most noises - but the vent for the stove lets out right at the door of the barn. She froze.
Her entire body was tense and trembling - eyes wide and head high, she was terrified of going inside. I pulled and disodged her, shifting her side to side, but _nothing_ made her take that step up into the barn. Having been focusing more on pressure+release and thinking back to some methods offered to me in my very first post on this forum about her freezing issues - I switched her to her lunge line. Luckily the line is hanging within reach of the door, so I never let up pressure on her halter - she stayed taught against it. 
I lunged her but off, right at the door - like loading in a trailer I thought. Then back to the door - each time I got to the door she froze. She wasn't that stupid. She'd rather trot a million circles than walk through that door. So with my lunge line I stretched out far enough to reach my lunge whip - this is where it gets real terrible. This was a suggestion made to me when I first presented my issues with her, almost a year ago I think - by someone highly regarded on here, the suggestion was widely backed by members of this forum. I've sense seen other threads with similar issues with similar suggestions with positive results. I stood beside her to lead her into the door, she froze, and I swung the lunge whip at her hind end. Every time I applied pressure she backed up more - she knows **** well she's stronger than me. I hit her awful hard ;-; (feeling pretty terrible about it now). My fiance at this point came downstairs wondering why I'm lat for dinner - he of course left the stupid fan on. I then followed a suggestion made by someone else on this forum - equally widely accepted and all the same stuff as the other person's suggestion with hitting her with a whip to drive her forward. The suggestions was to have someone haze her from behind. He did - she tenses up so tight her tail was sucked in SO far, she was so terrified. 
I lunged her again - it's been over 30 minutes now. This time with the whip, then go toward the door - she freezes, I spank her butt - she lunged forward and around me, not forward through the door. Rinse and repeat this terrible process for many more minutes before I decide to bring her in the front door of the barn, another door she's never seen. Same situation, same results.
It's been over an hour, we're both exhausted and dripping in sweat - it's 25 degrees out (f) and we're boiling hot from all the work we've done. This is more exercise than my mare has had in a long time.

At this point I'm crying, I'm hating what I'm doing to her, I can't make myself any more forceful, I can't be any more assertive, I can't be any more aggressive.
Then it occurred to me. I've encountered this issue before an found the solution before.
I dropped the lunge line and went to my barn (I couldn't reach these things while holding it -and this was stupid and terrible, but I just let her go). I went into the barn and got my target and a pocket full of hay stretcher. When I walked back out I thought my heart exploded she's solid black and it's dark night time now - where was she? I thought she was gone. But there she was, in the broken paddock (a tree had fallen in it and took out a fence - I've just been using it for dumping manure). I go up to her and find she's gotten her line tangled in tree branches - so I unclipped her, cause she couldn't move anywhere. 
So I show her my target and put a smile on my face and say "touch it"! She says "OH!! I know how to do that!!" She touches it and gets her click+treat. She follows her target up to the barn door and freezes a few feet in front of the door - her black lead rope is invisible now at night and I can't find it so I carry on without it. This time I just put the target 1 step in front of where she is, she inches her way to the door and freezes. Now the target is at the point where she has to take that one step through the threshold. It took about 5 minutes of me chipperly saying "touch it - I know you can!!" My Belgian is making all sorts of noises out side that keep making her jump, but she keeps focusing and reaching for her target. *Finally* she takes the step!! I clicker and jack-pot treat her!! She comes all the way in and we walk to her stall with no more issues. 


I feel so stupid for taking SO long to go to CT - maybe I needed to prove to myself that this was really the right path. I'm so upset with myself for having hurt her, when I clearly didn't need to. I'm so happy that she trusted me and what I was asking of her enough to do it, even though she was scared. 
Maybe there would have been ways to physically force her into the barn, outside of extreme violence I couldn't think of anything. Had CT not worked I would have brought her around to her old door and walked her in there, but that would have been 'giving up' IMO. 

I don't know what else to say.
I guess in the moment I was stuck on the idea that I was 'bribing her' into the barn, I wanted her to go into the barn because she trusted me, not because I had a pocket full of food. But I think - in hind sight - she had to trust me, that I wasn't asking her to do something that was dangerous. Previously - every time I asked her to enter the barn and she didn't she would get hurt or worked - or some other terrible result, only reinforcing in her mind that the door is terrible. While now, approaching the door and touching her target gets her something good. It's scary and makes her nervous, but I'm continually focusing on the positive, each step like it's a miracle. 
Keeping things focused on the positive kept her thinking positively - not reinforcing her fear. I also can't understand how hurting her in anyway makes her trust me _at all!_ How can whacking her with a stick make her trust me to go somewhere scary? Maybe it could force some horses to go somewhere scary, but she'd take a terrible amount of pain before taking chances on something scary. But I don't see it earning trust - only submission. Rather than being forced to go somewhere because otherwise she'll be in pain - she's being told, to come with me because it's going to be wonderful when we get there!

Anyway.. Sorry for my forever long story - how is everyone else doing with their horses? I'd love to hear some updates.


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## WildcatandI

When I first started CT I relapsed several times. I had to prove to myself it was really better. I still have small relapses but now it's over small things like tugging a lead rope harder than I should, etc. CT does work but it's also an alternative path that not everyone is going to be open to. And really, look at the thought process you've gone through over that ordeal. All those people who naysay positive reinforcement would have to look at themselves
And admit that years of their life were devoted to intimidating, scaring, and forcing ther horse to do their will rather than actually teaching them and building true repor. It amazes me that I still run into people who's horses hate to be caught or buck every time they're saddled but the owners still aren't ready to admit that to themselves and make the changes needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shawnakarrasch

That is so awesome. Thank goodness for the situations that sometimes challenge our comfort zones. From my experience, if she had the lead rope on...her suspicion probably would have been greater. By working her at liberty, you really gave her a choice. She knew it was on her terms and that simple fact can make all of the difference, particularly at first. That is why I like to work at liberty first and move to halters and lead ropes further down the road. I am so pleased for the two of you!! You are not alone in the taking a while to get there...never fret that, you are there now. :0)


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## existentialpony

Neat!! I feel like CT somehow empowers a horse, in that they know how to do something (like touch a target)... they just have to apply it to something new or scary (like entering the barn). It's not an empty abyss of "what do I do?!" Happy for you! :-D


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## PunksTank

Wow thank you all so much ^^ - definitely not the response I was prepared for (was prepared for a firing squad) xD But definitely the responses I needed to hear. I've been feeling terribly guilty about taking so long to come to the obvious answer, I apologized to my mare all day today <3 she appreciated it.

WildCat - this absolutely made me realize _why_ I'm doing CT and the difference between CT and 'bribery' which has been a nagging thought in my mind, I kept feeling like she's not doing it because of me, but because of food - this event fixed that. Now I've realized the food is what enables our learning together - but she needs to trust I'm not going to ask her to do something she can't. 
Shawna - I think you're absolutely right!!! Back before when she had issues just leaving her paddock, I would open the gates connecting her paddock to other paddocks and just go rake up the other one - on her own terms she would start to come over to my new paddock - she's gallop back home at the slightest breeze, but she knew she had the ability to do so, which made her braver.

Shawna and Wildcat - the two of you have taught me so much, I can't begin to thank you enough! I hope to someday be half a great as you guys are working with your horses!! 
Shawna, I PMed you a while ago about another pony I was working with - it looked like you responded, but for some reason it came to me blank?


Existentialpony - I think so to! It teaches them a clear "yes" answer, they know exactly what they need to do - and they know exactly what they'll get for doing it - and they know they want it! It definitely did feel like an abyss when trying to force her into it - she had to choose between the potential of something terrible (the dragon waiting to eat her inside the barn) or something terrible that she knew was going to happen (me hurting her) - she (much like me) would always opt for the 'evil that you know' Vs. 'the evil that you don't know'. Which left us both in a terrible position. 


I'm so glad I was shown Clicker Training, I'm so glad my mare puts me in these situations, I'm so glad she's patient enough to tolerate me when I'm not as good at figuring out what she wants as she is at figuring out what I want.


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## Saddlebag

Punk, your story sure tells us that a battle of wills doesn't work. Congrats on resorting to a softer method. I'm a great fan of CT altho I don't tell the horse to touch the target. I hold it and wait until he seeks it. That way it's all the horse's idea. It's episodes like the one you had that teaches so much so don't feel guilty. It has reinforced in you that there are better ways. The old adage...we learn by our mistakes.


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## PunksTank

Thanks Saddlebag, I like the idea of having them touch the target on their terms - when they first learn to touch it I just wait for them to seek it out - but eventually I put a cue to it. 
I use the target for teaching my pony to go through his little obstacle course so I want a cue for him to follow it.

One of the other members on here even taught them to 'target' anything they were near, I'd love to figure out how to teach them to do that (like targetting trash barrels on a trail?) I think that would help her overcome some of her fears.


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## Saddlebag

Since he understands how c/t works when you get to the trash barrel and point him toward it and he hesitates, step toward the barrel and if he even stretches toward it ct. I've also let the horse smell the treat in my hand and will move it away from his nose so he'll follow it. Reward even a tiny step closer.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag said:


> Since he understands how c/t works when you get to the trash barrel and point him toward it and he hesitates, step toward the barrel and if he even stretches toward it ct. I've also let the horse smell the treat in my hand and will move it away from his nose so he'll follow it. Reward even a tiny step closer.


I think it wouldn't be hard to teach them to target each individual item, but I want a cue meaning 'touch what I point you at', not each individual item separately? does that make sense?
So, if I point them at a trash barrel I could say 'touch' and she'd know to touch the barrel, but if I pointed her at a stop sign she'd know to touch that too and so on with anything I bring her up to. Without having to teach each item individually? Is that possible?


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## rookie

Punks I think I see what you want to teach. You want a command that will be a sending type command. In which your horse goes and puts its nose on a desired object. I can see this being of use in a spooking situation. I have done some, admittedly pressure and release type stuff with my gelding who was afraid of random things (tractor or my truck or a large rock). He is a horse where if he touches it he is not afraid of it. We spent 10 minutes under saddle in the drive way trying to touch a tarp one day. So, I am seriously considering the sending command with him. 

In short, I think its very possible. What you have to do is reinforce the actual process of walking towards something which is just targeting. I would use the term "touch" to keep that different from your target. Let the word become what the target represents. If you have a target, place that on any and all random objects and say "touch". Then you can either gradually make the target smaller to the point where its just a dot and then reduce to a voice command and finger point.


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## PunksTank

Rookie! That's exactly what I'm looking for! My mare is just the same, she was terrified of my dumpster with a tarp on top of it, I put her target on it and suddenly it was just another silly object I want her to touch. The same happened with my car. I think that's a great way of teaching the skill. I want to eventually be able to do it from her back for safety on trails. Being broke I can't afford a saddle so I can't easily get on and off on a trail xD
Thanks  I love this thread.

I'm curious how everyone else's clicker trained horses are doing?


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## WildcatandI

You're looking for what a friend of mine coined "the curious cue"  I use "touch" as my cue. During the building process it's easiest to start teaching them to touch several things they aren't scared of. Slowly mix in one slightly more scary item in with the non scary ones. Sometimes just walking around your property touching things is a fun session  even if I find a scary thing on the trail sometimes I try to
Start with an easy thing first, like a tree stump, before heading to the scary trash pile (for example). It builds their confidence up a bit 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

Wildcat that sounds just exactly like what I want - do I go about training it the way explained? We've been trapped in the house the past few days - we're all going stir crazy. I'm gonna teach them to 'station' standing still on a particular floor mat till this stupid snow is gone xD


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## WildcatandI

Yep just like that. Mat training (stationing is also an incredibly handy tool to have!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Well Punks, you and your mare have come a long way! Congratulations! I was just talking in another thread about CT, that its one of many tools we use and everyone uses food to train horses even if they don't realize it. 

I especially relate to the part of your post that talked about your mares lack of enthusiasm for pressure/release training. I like to use CT because of the effect it has on my horses enthusiasm and attention. My mares both go from a walk to canter in 2 strides, drop their heads into their bridles, follow at liberty from the barn to arena, and we are working on the "block" command (position at mounting block at liberty). They do all of this with ears forward, eyes bright and soft, quickly and energeticallly. Both were work sour, bar sour and bit at you when you groomed or tacked them up when I got them. Most of these great improvements came from CT and I only just started 9 months ago! 

I wouldn't feel guilty about your use of pressure on your mare. Remember, horses use pressure on each other all the time, much more than we ever do. All my horses are covered with bite marks right now as they are really rough with each other in spring! I guess i like CT not because i think PR hurts them and CT doesnt. I like it because IT WORKS so much better. Just feel great knowing that you have one of the most intelligent tools for training in your tool box now, and you know it now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Well Punks, you and your mare have come a long way! Congratulations! I was just talking in another thread about CT, that its one of many tools we use and everyone uses food to train horses even if they don't realize it.
> 
> I especially relate to the part of your post that talked about your mares lack of enthusiasm for pressure/release training. I like to use CT because of the effect it has on my horses enthusiasm and attention. My mares both go from a walk to canter in 2 strides, drop their heads into their bridles, follow at liberty from the barn to arena, and we are working on the "block" command (position at mounting block at liberty). They do all of this with ears forward, eyes bright and soft, quickly and energeticallly. Both were work sour, bar sour and bit at you when you groomed or tacked them up when I got them. Most of these great improvements came from CT and I only just started 9 months ago!
> 
> I wouldn't feel guilty about your use of pressure on your mare. Remember, horses use pressure on each other all the time, much more than we ever do. All my horses are covered with bite marks right now as they are really rough with each other in spring! I guess i like CT not because i think PR hurts them and CT doesnt. I like it because IT WORKS so much better. Just feel great knowing that you have one of the most intelligent tools for training in your tool box now, and you know it now!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thank you!
And I completely agree, I hope I didn't sound like 'pressure=hurting' I do use pressure and release sometimes, actually fairly often on a regular basis (moving them over in their stalls and stuff). My reason for saying that I opted for a clicker over hurting her was because in this situation the amount of pressure it would have taken to get her to go through the door would have been a severe amount of pain. So in this case I opted for clicker training over hurting her. 


How is everyone elses horses doing? I'm curious how other CT users are doing, what new skills are you working on?


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## rookie

well, once the blasted snow goes bye bye and I get some (and by some I mean any) free time I am planning to clicker my boy and my mare to stand while I use road flares. They are a safe enough, and visible emergency signal that does nothing for me if the instant I set one off the horse hauls butt back home.

Other than that, I was impressed when after a few months off. I went out to vaccinate my clicker trained boy. He was mid nap, so once I put the lead on him I had to convince him that he really did need to stand up. Then he got his vaccines and did not move a muscle. He then marched over the fence when I walked past after all was said and done, just to say hi. Its just nice to know that this horse associates me with pleasant things. My mare, his half sister, was a living nightmare, bucking and cow kicking. So, back to the drawing board for her.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I just got back from a little arena work and a short trail ride. My mare was so soft and willing! She saddled up perfectly (used to be soo cinchy). She walks at liberty to the arena, targeting my hand, then walks over to the mounting block and poses there waiting. She W/T/C on cue in 1 stride, neck reins well( except when she tries to anticipate once or twice) and stretches out for warm up. She yields full circle right and left, front and hind. And collects up. I can't believe how far she has come! CT has improved her attitude toward work immensely. I want to work on spins and rollbacks now, getting some speed in her responsiveness. I also want to move up to a curb bit so I can make my cues smaller.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> I just got back from a little arena work and a short trail ride. My mare was so soft and willing! She saddled up perfectly (used to be soo cinchy). She walks at liberty to the arena, targeting my hand, then walks over to the mounting block and poses there waiting. She W/T/C on cue in 1 stride, neck reins well( except when she tries to anticipate once or twice) and stretches out for warm up. She yields full circle right and left, front and hind. And collects up. I can't believe how far she has come! CT has improved her attitude toward work immensely. I want to work on spins and rollbacks now, getting some speed in her responsiveness. I also want to move up to a curb bit so I can make my cues smaller.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sound like things are going great!!

How do you get them to target hands without becoming mouthy? I've always avoided that outside of one mini I work with who was terrified of hands I had her target it so it was her choice to come to the hand - she never became mouthy. But what do you do to prevent it in typically mouthy horses?
Sounds like your circles and all are coming along great! Do you teach your skills on the ground first then bring them into saddle?


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## PunksTank

rookie said:


> well, once the blasted snow goes bye bye and I get some (and by some I mean any) free time I am planning to clicker my boy and my mare to stand while I use road flares. They are a safe enough, and visible emergency signal that does nothing for me if the instant I set one off the horse hauls butt back home.
> 
> Other than that, I was impressed when after a few months off. I went out to vaccinate my clicker trained boy. He was mid nap, so once I put the lead on him I had to convince him that he really did need to stand up. Then he got his vaccines and did not move a muscle. He then marched over the fence when I walked past after all was said and done, just to say hi. Its just nice to know that this horse associates me with pleasant things. My mare, his half sister, was a living nightmare, bucking and cow kicking. So, back to the drawing board for her.


Tell me about it - I'm SO sick of snow! Glad to hear some of the CT work is sticking


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## jaydee

Subbing because I've used a sort of clicker training forever and can see how it could have all sorts of potential
Very interesting so far


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## PunksTank

jaydee said:


> Subbing because I've used a sort of clicker training forever and can see how it could have all sorts of potential
> Very interesting so far


What sort have you done? How do you do it differently?


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## Foxtail Ranch

PunksTank said:


> Sound like things are going great!!
> 
> How do you get them to target hands without becoming mouthy? I've always avoided that outside of one mini I work with who was terrified of hands I had her target it so it was her choice to come to the hand - she never became mouthy. But what do you do to prevent it in typically mouthy horses?
> Sounds like your circles and all are coming along great! Do you teach your skills on the ground first then bring them into saddle?


For hand targeting, I use a fist and never hold the reward in that hand. I walk with them following and click & stop randomly. Then I reach in and treat with the other hand. I am a stickler about manners. If they lip or mouth my hand, or inhale my fingers, my hand flips over to a fist. 

And yes, I taught all the yielding on the ground before we tried it in saddle. I just wish I could get more speed in her response. How do you go from a slow spin to a fast one? It's one move that I can't preteach on the ground. I think I just need to jackpot her when she does it quickly. That's how I got her backup to be speedier. I just need her to be a little speedier once or twice and shape that. 

On a fun note, I've taught April to snort and nod her head! I was just playing around with it while I brush her and now she does it. I need to put a cue to it. Then I can ask her a question and get a YES answer!

What are you working on Punks? How is your mare coming along?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Oh, there's one more cool thing I want to add. Monday I fed everyone and went into the tack room to get my saddle out for repairs. They were loose in the alley of the barn and their field while I did this. My girls saw the saddle come out and got interested. They nickered and followed me as I carried it to the ATV, then followed me down the road to the house about 30 yards. Usually, they stay with their hay. It seemed like they wanted to work, and even left their feed for the possibility of work. I could be wrong. But these are the same two who were work/buddy/barn sour when I started CT, were hard to catch, bridle saddle and even groom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

That is awesome Tiffany!! 
As for speed, I've never taught a spin so I don't know - but when I wanted to teach my mare to trot beside me I used the target and upped my energy. I got super energetic and jogged next to her holding her target out ahead. It wasn't hard to get her to pick up the speed (even my fat lazy lady!). I jackpotted when she trotted well, and just regular treat if she lazy jogged. So maybe just increasing your own personal energy - like "Yes! We got this - lets go!!" sort of feeling 

I love that feeling, when they come right up excited to work! My mare comes running when I grab her bridle  I love that!! Even at liberty she lets me put on her surcingle and everything before the bridle - I love that.


I'm working on a little on a lot! 
My mare is learning to walk calmly down the aisle of my barn, wait before the door for me to go through first and calmly exit. She's also learning about my 'scary' tack room and walking by it calmly. We're just using her target. She's also working on targetting what I point at so I don't need to rely on her target. 
My pony and Belgian I haven't done much with at all - just no time.

At the rescue I _just_ yesterday started CT work with our colt, he was just weaned 2 days ago and just got a halter put on for the first time (we just got him and his very sick mom a few weeks ago). He's picking up CT fast! He's touching my target very well  Once I get a halter that's a little stronger (he's in my mini's halter) we're going to practice putting it on and off and learn to give to pressure on the halter 

My mini I finally found a treat that works for her! It hurts her mouth very much to eat (her teeth are too big for her face) the vet is working on removing a few at a time but she'll never be able to eat solid food. She also has Cushing's so molasses and all isn't an option >.< So I'm using sugar-free apple sauce! She loves it! It doesn't hurt her to eat it and she's very motivated. She is now touching and following her target all over.

The flighty Arabian I'm working with at the rescue is learning to target what I point at too and learning to target things that are scary too. 


Does anyone have good suggestions on things to work on with horses who are exceptionally flighty? Stuff to help horses cope when they spook easily?


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## PunksTank

So I'm feeling revitalized with CT again and eager to do more! I keep thinking of things to teach my horses, but when I have the pocket full of treats I can never decide which to teach now. So I've made myself a game plan with my mare.

I want to try working with a neck strap - eventually to ride with only that. I've just recently backed my mare, she's been nothing but wonderful, she walks and turns and stops and backs up, sometimes if my energy is up I can get some trots out of her too  but we're really just working on fine tuning things before moving on to that.
So I figure now's as good a time as any to teach her about neck straps xD As it's dark out and she was in her stall I just tied a set of rope reins around her neck (pretty loose) and tried neck reining her left (me on the ground). With CT in about 5 minutes she was giving me a consistent left head turn, in 3 more she was stepping over with her front end. I'm very proud of her! 
Tomorrow we're going to work on turning right, and maybe stopping/backing up with it. Then I'll try hopping on once those are solid 
I feel very safe riding her like that - she just stops when she doesn't know what to do - so I have no concern about any of that. 

So I'll keep everyone posted!!


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## jillybean19

*Update*

Hey all! I've been MIA for a while (sorry!) but for a good reason! I was offered a position for my dream job and have been diligently working to sell my home, get moved, and get ready for this fall when My position starts.

In all this, I sold my endurance horse and have been focusing on my baby that I've been doing clicker training with. First, we did quite a bit of desensitization and ground work just to get him confident and consistent working with me. I really want to train him for reining, and he showed some potential last fall for moving off of leg/rein pressure the last few times I rode him, but I never truly worked on it with him. Since we've been working together and I trust him more, I decided to give it a shot starting straight from working with a cordeo (neck rope).

I've kept Punks Tank's advice in mind and kept our working periods short. One good way I've found to limit myself is only to carry just enough treats in my bag - it reminds me to quit while I'm ahead since I only have so many treats to work with! Of course, I don't carry so few that I run out before I get him to a successful stopping point. However, this has kept our sessions under 5 minutes. In addition, I've been working with him in his own pen (about 1/4-1/2 acre), where I've found he's much more relaxed and focused, especially at liberty. He's the only one in there, and when I give him a break, it's truly a break. I don't think he got the same sort of mental release when I gave him a break but left him in the arena/round pen.

We worked a lot on "woah" from the ground, first with lead rope, and then working at liberty. We did this with both leading from the front, then walking in a circle around me, but I found that driving him from behind and then stopping when I said "woah" communicated what I wanted best and allowed him to make the connection between the word and stopping. Once I felt like he would stop if I needed to, I got on. I want to be very precise and clear about my leg/seat cues, so for that and a few other reasons we worked bareback. For the next few days, we worked in a halter. Since he's respectful on the ground with a halter, it translated straight to riding in a halter and getting control if I needed it. More importantly, though, it allowed me to give him a "hint" for what I wanted him to do, which is good since he's young and sometimes gets a little over-zealous when he can't figure out what he's supposed to do, usually ending up in some frustrated 3-year-old hops (NOT good when riding bareback on a ROUND horse!). I continued what we'd been working on before, pairing my seat cue (squeezing with my thighs and sitting deeper) with "woah". If he didn't stop immediately, then I lifted up on my "reins" (aka my lead rope tied onto his halter), and that got him to stop. Within no time, he was stopping with the "woah" and began to connect the seat cue with "woah" and stopping without any help from the reins.

So next was turns. He'd had some practice moving off my leg last fall, but wasn't consistent in turning the right direction or at all without help from the reins. Now, however, after pairing my leg cue with a rein cue (always neck reining before giving a direct rein) a few times in the halter and clicking and treating, he was responding correctly a little more than half the time. I experimented with having a second lead rope around his neck and using that to cue first, and found he'd made such a good connection after being rewarded for correct responses that I wasn't even touching the reins attached to his halter.

So, this was all last week. Sunday, I made myself a cordeo (neck rope), and it's all I've ridden in. I've been out there almost nightly, riding for just 5-10 minutes until he shows some consistently correct responses to walking off, turning both directions, and stopping with a squeeze and soft "woah", and then giving him his "jackpot". In addition, I feed for my boarder in the evenings, so when he's done, he knows he's done well because I go and get dinner for him  Each night, he's done even better than before. I've been clicking and treating after he does something particularly well, or if he seems a little uncertain but figures out the correct response. Today, I was able to do 2-3 things (like a turn, walking straight for a while, and stopping) before clicking and treating. I'm going to keep extending that time now so that I can build up to riding for a while before clicking and treating. He generally knows the correct things to do now, but he's still building confidence that he's responding correctly. I'm so proud of him! He's turning off of only leg/neck rope pressure and stopping without any pressure at all - just a seat cue and soft "woah". Sometimes, he stops with just the seat cue! I'll have to get my hubby out to videotape it one of these times.  SO EXCITED to be riding and training my horse with just a neck rope and my clicker!


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> So I'm feeling revitalized with CT again and eager to do more! I keep thinking of things to teach my horses, but when I have the pocket full of treats I can never decide which to teach now. So I've made myself a game plan with my mare.
> 
> I want to try working with a neck strap - eventually to ride with only that. I've just recently backed my mare, she's been nothing but wonderful, she walks and turns and stops and backs up, sometimes if my energy is up I can get some trots out of her too  but we're really just working on fine tuning things before moving on to that.
> So I figure now's as good a time as any to teach her about neck straps xD As it's dark out and she was in her stall I just tied a set of rope reins around her neck (pretty loose) and tried neck reining her left (me on the ground). With CT in about 5 minutes she was giving me a consistent left head turn, in 3 more she was stepping over with her front end. I'm very proud of her!
> Tomorrow we're going to work on turning right, and maybe stopping/backing up with it. Then I'll try hopping on once those are solid
> I feel very safe riding her like that - she just stops when she doesn't know what to do - so I have no concern about any of that.
> 
> So I'll keep everyone posted!!


I've never been able to ride with a neck strap. Now, thanks to clicker training, I've decided I'm going to train him armed with only a neck strap and my clicker. Of course, I may need to use other things occasionally in order to guide him to what I want him to do (he doesn't like guessing), but only as minimally as possible. It's been a great experience so far, and he loves getting to work! I love knowing that I literally cannot force him to do anything - he has to make the choice.


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## jillybean19

tiffanyodonnell said:


> How do you go from a slow spin to a fast one? It's one move that I can't preteach on the ground. I think I just need to jackpot her when she does it quickly. That's how I got her backup to be speedier. I just need her to be a little speedier once or twice and shape that.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm training my boy specifically to be a reiner. In general, my approach has been to use "normal" training methods to guide him into doing what I want him to do, and then clicking and treating when he responds correctly. I've discovered he gets very frustrated when he has to guess what I want - he wants to get it right, and RIGHT NOW! So, I do my research to see what other people have done to teach different maneuvers.

In the case of a spin, I recently read this suggestion:
Trot your horse to the left, then ask for a spin to the right (like a rollback). This will give you some momentum going into the spin, but put the weight back on the hind in order to turn around. However, after one or two quick steps, trot off in the direction you just spun (to the right) to maintain momentum. To practice a spin to the left, just reverse everything. As she gets better at this and gives you the speed and response you want, ask for a few more steps, then a few more, etc. until you're getting your turns.

The trick to this for us is figuring out where the most effective "click" spot will be. I would say, at first, that it's probably after she does the quick turn and trots off a few steps. Then, as we've said before, don't click unless she gives you a few more quick steps. Eventually, you can start clicking in the spin since she'll connect the faster steps with the click.

Another option is to really refine your cues. My boy knows to get his butt in gear when he hears me kiss - I imagine he'd speed up his spin (when we get there) if I kissed to let him know I want more out of him. Then, I'd just click and treat when he goes a little faster.

On a final note - you can teach this from the ground. My boarder has me working with her horse and swears by Parelli, so I had to learn a few things about it from her before she was comfortable with me working with her horse for her. (I'm not entirely new to it, but I think I feel about Parelli the same way a lot of people feel about CT lol.) Anyway, one thing she had me do was to use the horses "zones" to move away from pressure. I did notice that her horses pivoted really well when she used the front zone (head/neck/shoulder) to move her horses away from her. I did try it with my boy, and, being as responsive as he is when I lift my hands, he did a nice roll-back lol. If you're quick on your feet, you could ask for more from the ground and reward for quicker responses, then have it translate into the saddle!


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## PunksTank

JillyBean so glad your back! Sounds like things are going amazingly well for you  Huge congrats on the new job!
Sounds like your colt is moving forward in leaps and bounds - way to go!

About the neck strap - ahh I'm so conflicted! I got her riding well with it in her paddock, but she's a seriously spooky horse and I just don't know if I'd ever trust to ride out without something else.
Honestly I think this is the hardest part of using Clicker Training - the whole world is open to you, but deciding which path to take is pretty tough. So I still haven't settled on any one particular piece of tack for riding her in, I go between her Indian hackamore, her halter and the neck rope. But truthfully I haven't ridden her nearly as much as I should - work and a wedding to plan  And my Belgian is finally healthy enough to ride, so I've been riding him instead >.<

I guess I had a silly question - what are some good CT methods of desensitizing horses? I've done all the basics with her, plastic bags and all bits of tack. But really, rather than just not being afraid of a plastic bag I want to teach her that calmness is what I want all the time. That when she's nervous to stay still. When I got her, the only thing any human had taught her was that she was stronger than us all. She's known since the very beginning that if she doesn't want to do something she can gallop off and I can't stop her. 
I'm very proud that she's come as far as she has - particularly because I know if she didn't want to be doing what I ask she wouldn't be. She's gotten to the point now where she only spooks over legitimate things to spook over - most recently a gopher magically appeared and jumped out at her (you know those horse eating gophers!!) - the problem is that when she spooks she GOES. We were walking around the outside of the paddocks to the ring out back (which isn't fenced either) and within a second she was back up at the front gate of the paddocks. 
So I guess I'm looking for some clicker training methods to teach a horse that when they spook to stay relatively still.


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> JillyBean so glad your back! Sounds like things are going amazingly well for you  Huge congrats on the new job!
> Sounds like your colt is moving forward in leaps and bounds - way to go!
> 
> About the neck strap - ahh I'm so conflicted! I got her riding well with it in her paddock, but she's a seriously spooky horse and I just don't know if I'd ever trust to ride out without something else.
> Honestly I think this is the hardest part of using Clicker Training - the whole world is open to you, but deciding which path to take is pretty tough. So I still haven't settled on any one particular piece of tack for riding her in, I go between her Indian hackamore, her halter and the neck rope. But truthfully I haven't ridden her nearly as much as I should - work and a wedding to plan  And my Belgian is finally healthy enough to ride, so I've been riding him instead >.<
> 
> I guess I had a silly question - what are some good CT methods of desensitizing horses? I've done all the basics with her, plastic bags and all bits of tack. But really, rather than just not being afraid of a plastic bag I want to teach her that calmness is what I want all the time. That when she's nervous to stay still. When I got her, the only thing any human had taught her was that she was stronger than us all. She's known since the very beginning that if she doesn't want to do something she can gallop off and I can't stop her.
> I'm very proud that she's come as far as she has - particularly because I know if she didn't want to be doing what I ask she wouldn't be. She's gotten to the point now where she only spooks over legitimate things to spook over - most recently a gopher magically appeared and jumped out at her (you know those horse eating gophers!!) - the problem is that when she spooks she GOES. We were walking around the outside of the paddocks to the ring out back (which isn't fenced either) and within a second she was back up at the front gate of the paddocks.
> So I guess I'm looking for some clicker training methods to teach a horse that when they spook to stay relatively still.


When riding with the cordeo, I would only ever do it with JUST the cordeo in a confined environment like a round pen, arena, or (in my case) his own pen. In fact, I haven't moved into the arena or round pen because he seems much more relaxed and confident in "his" space, and I'm somewhat nervous about being somewhere where I'm closer to fencing in case something did happen. His pen is wide open, so if I do go off, I most likely won't hit anything but the ground haha. When going out on trail rides, I plan on riding with a sidepull or even a bridle once he has some practice in one, but I shouldn't have to use any direct reining since he should respond to neck raining and leg pressure after so much work in the cordeo. That's ultimately the goal since I want him to be a reining horse - using almost no pressure at all to get quick responses. If I only ever train him with a cordeo, then I'll never have to "wean" him off of direct pressure to teach him to neck/leg rein. Rather, he's going to be reining from day one - made possible through clicker training. I never want to pull on his mouth, and it's looking like I may never have to!

As far as not riding as often as you should - if I planned to do what I normally considered a ride, I don't know how often I'd get out there. But that's the beauty of clicker training - by keeping our sessions very short and ending with a "jackpot", I'm able to work with him for about 10-15 minutes each day and make wonderful progress in a very short amount of time - by spending a total of about 2 hours with my horse over the course of the last two weeks, I've gotten farther with him than I've ever gotten with a horse, period. Like I said before, I've NEVER been able to have the trust and responsiveness to ride a horse with a cordeo, much less starting from square one with it and skipping "direct reining" as you would normally have to do first!

And now for desensitizing - in general, I go by the rule of thumb by taking anything he doesn't like and doing it until he's comfortable with it. With clicker training, it's one of those things that I wouldn't necessarily worry about preventing a spook so much as rewarding your horse for doing what he's supposed to be doing when presented with the opportunity to spook. So, I'd recommend asking your horse to do something he already knows how to do and is very consistent with it. I find that if you focus on "desensitizing", my horse has no idea what I'm asking him to do by flapping scary things around him. Instead of trusting me, he starting thinking I was giving him a cue to do something like go away and actually became more sensitive. Instead, it's worked better to ask him to do something he knows how to do in the presence of something he might want to spook at.

Here are a few examples:

The stand game - reward him for listening to you and standing still, even when things are being flung around him. Someone even talked about throwing bike tires at their horses!

Leading/riding - walk past scary things and reward him leading the way you taught him to be led and going past the monster calmly. This could be something as simple as a tarp or blanket laying on the fence (step it up with wind or a trash bag). Get creative with this one! Put out tarps with empty plastic bottles on in that make noise when he steps on it, get some noise makers, and don't forget to account for how scary livestock can be!

Targeting - simply ask your horse to target what he's afraid of. Suddenly, that monster becomes a treat dispenser!


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## jillybean19

A quick update about riding with a cordeo - after some trial and error, I figured out a safe way to achieve my goals. Ultimately, my goal is to ride without any contact with the bit. I'd really like to be able to ride him tackless and/or with only a cordeo. Rather than beginning with a bit and forcing him to turn through direct reining (and then having to wean him off of that pressure), I began riding instead with a side pull, moving quickly into a cordeo. With the cordeo, it's impossible to pull on his mouth and he's learned to move off light cues willingly. With such light pressure, it would be difficult to use "traditional" training since there's hardly any pressure to release to begin with. Rather, clicker training has made it possible to signal "yes" - something that my horse now readily and eagerly works for. 

To put it simply the steps I took were:

Halter break to give to pressure.
Begin riding with the cordeo, cuing with my legs and the cordeo, but also have a halter with reins attached to give a "hint" for what the cordeo and leg cues mean.
Get him consistently moving off the cordeo cues - right now, we're just doing the basics, like walking off, turning both directions, and stopping - and eventually remove the halter.

Today, I added the next step. Now that I've got him moving off of light light, non-forceful cues, I finally rode him in a bridle. Here's how it went:

Last year, when group-breaking, I taught him to open his mouth on cue (for taking a bit/medicine/etc.) as well as to take a bridle and bit, so he was very calm and obedient when I first put the bridle in. However, since I've only asked him to wear a bridle a few times and it's been quite a while since we did so, I also think that clicker training has taught him to be willing to do whatever I ask him to, because it usually ends up being a fun and good experience for him, like a game. I've seen this become more and more evident in other behaviors as well since I've been working with him at least a few minutes daily for the last week or two.

He's not used to the bit, so he chewed on it a lot (it's a nice 3-piece bit with a big, copper bean in the middle). He wasn't sure of what to do with it, but he's not fighting it either. I didn't worry about that today. However, I also avoided pulling on it, and I think that's what made today a success for both of us.

Rather than trying to direct rein with the bit in his mouth, I used 10-ft loop reins and threw on his cordeo. I held both in my hands comfortably and used them to steer. They're both made from the same material, which has a good weight to it, so he caught on immediately. When he didn't respond immediately to my cue, I used more leg and pressure with the cordeo rather than pulling on his mouth. In addition, to lengthen our rides and have more "direction", I set a goal of making it around the outside his pen once. I figure this will help give him a goal of what he's supposed to do, since he's sometimes getting confused about where the heck we're going and turning in circles or "over-responding" to a cue. Plus, as I'm still clicking and treating after every few "maneuvers", it also gives me the opportunity to ask more of him before clicking and treating. More or less, since he knows the individual cues, we're just trying to put it all together now into a "ride". It seemed to work very well - we went around one time, and he earned his jackpot. Then, I exercised another horse for probably an hour or so, and then we did it once more. He did so much better the second time that we made it around twice before his "jackpot" reward! I'm so proud of him!

*To those interested in training your horse to ride with a cordeo* - maybe this would be a solution for you? If you ride with the reins _and_ a cordeo at the same time, you'd still have a "safety net" if something went wrong and you needed more control. You could do it more or less the opposite way from what I've done since your horses are already trained with a bridle and bit - ride first with both the cordeo and reins in your hand to get your horse associating the cordeo cues with how they're supposed to respond, then try dropping the reins and cueing with only the cordeo but still being able to use the reins for "hints" or emergencies, and eventually getting you and your horse confident enough to ride with only the cordeo. It's a thought!


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## jillybean19

Oh, and one last thing. I've been working on teaching Flash to stop with just squeezing my thighs and butt, which he's doing very consistently right now. I'm clicking and treating for it every time, though, because I want stopping immediately to get REALLY "solid" in his brain. My boarder was watching me the other day and mentioned she'd hate to have a horse that expected a treat every time he stopped. OOHHH that bugged me, especially after some of the comments I've seen on here. But I realized how blind she was to all the things he _was_ doing without clicking and treating that were already solid and that I no longer clicked and treated for. For example - he was moving out at all three gaits with, stood completely still while I jumped/wiggled on him bareback (he's getting taller!), leading perfectly and walking exactly where I wanted him to, standing tied, coming when called, longing.... the list goes on. Not to mention we went for a trail ride last fall when my horse, on his very first trail ride and dressed up in a consume, he had to lead the way for her much older and professionally trained horse. I responded by explaining he only gets a click and treat for new things we're working on and for things he's still uncertain about (since we're always working on adding more and more new things as he's in training, it might seem to someone else like he's getting clicked and treated for everything). I also added that he never, ever grabs for a treat and that you won't find a more polite horse!


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## jaydee

I really liked your last post - the fact that many people cant seem to see the difference between force feeding a horse treats for no reason and using them as a reward for a new learning experience and then gradually removing the treat once the learning is established. 
I also cant see how this could be seen as bribery - bribery is something promised in advance of the 'act' and I really don't think that horses can understand the concept of 'If you do that I will give you this' in human language.
I'm perfectly fine with people who want to train their horses without treats but not fine that they feel they have the right to dictate to those who do or question why they do it.
None of my horses are demanding or 'rude' where treats are concerned and none of them bite. Its even possible to establish ground rules using them, the fact that I can give them rewards and yet still have respectful. willing, happy horses that want to work for me and with me must say something.


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## jillybean19

jaydee said:


> None of my horses are demanding or 'rude' where treats are concerned and none of them bite. Its even possible to establish ground rules using them, the fact that I can give them rewards and yet still have respectful. willing, happy horses that want to work for me and with me must say something.


Since my boy is so young, he was still figuring out how to take a treat politely. He'd never mug me or ask for treats - I wouldn't even say he "expects" a treat like he's entitled to it, but rather he knows that he has to earn them. However, he'd try to use his teeth rather than lips. After getting a finger caught in those teeth once, I pulled back the treat the next time he reached with his teeth. He hasn't tried to use his teeth since. In fact, he almost seems nervous about loosing his treat again and VERY tenderly reaches for the treat when I offer it - sometimes I even have to remind him he's allowed to take it!


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## Saddlebag

At the prospect of getting a treat my walker starts flapping his lips as he reaches for my hand, then ever so gently removes it by pulling it into his mouth with his top lip. We humans understand reward and are motivated by someone saying "well done". Clicker training confirms to the horse that what it is doing is correct and the resultant reward motivates. Why food works well for horses is because they have no idea of when they will get to eat so are willing to do what it takes to receive food. What is the horse thinking about on a two hour trail ride? Food and getting eaten.


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## PunksTank

Great points everyone.
That's probably one of the biggest reasons I couldn't board my horses anywhere but home. 
I work at two other barns that aren't my own - one is completely hostile about CT, so I don't even mention it. 
The other is the rescue I co-run, the owner allows me to CT some of the rescues. She's seeing how incredible it is, but being an older horse lady she's having a hard time accepting it completely. Sometimes she feels like it's bribery and sometimes she thinks it makes the horses rude, but then she watches the horses that are being trained with it and is truly impressed.

Honestly, I think the hardest part of clicker training is deciding what to focus on. There is NO limit to what you could teach a horse, so deciding where to go with it is pretty tough!!


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## jaydee

I was amazed myself when Looby had her shots and blood tests this year - year 3 with us and year one was her trying to kill the vet in panic and last year was ACE given orally
This year even though she refused to allow the lovely vet nurse to get near her once I haltered her she settled and every time I saw her go tense I 'clicked' her - no treats at that point, she relaxed, focused on me, everything done including dental work and then she got het reward
I don't think my Vet expected such good results
The more I do with CT the more of a convert I become - my husband too especially after seeing how Jazzie now backs up to a click and a hand signal - yes she would back up with a lot of pressure against her chest but for some reason she couldn't get beyond the mind set that backing up shouldn't always involve all that pressure


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## Saddlebag

What on earth is wrong with bribing a horse? A thunderbolt won't strike you dead. Bribe is not a horse concept, it carries a negative human connotation. Hold you hand up if you've never bribed your kid to get the result you wanted. Those who didn't aren't telling the truth. "Oh, I'd never do that!" Let's chose a less negative word, let's provide incentive. Now doesn't that sound better?


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## rookie

So, today I the combination of getting out of work early and lovely weather resulted in me actually having time to work Harry. I am planning on recommitting to clicker with him this summer. He is a bit lets say dramatic and I think I can either get him to explore new things by saying "if you don't I will beat you and be scary" so I am more terrifying that anything. Or I can get new things to be really positive an associated with food. I tried the I am more scary than anything else and honestly its not me. I find with food and me being calm he is way more willing to do things. At the end of last summer, he was doing things (walking on slash) that made him uncomfortable but he did it because I asked. He is super treat motivated but not yet mugging for treats. So, do you find it easier to use a mark word or a sound/noise? right now I am planning on reinforcing my "correct cue" and I am just not sure which is easier.


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## Foxtail Ranch

rookie said:


> So, today I the combination of getting out of work early and lovely weather resulted in me actually having time to work Harry. I am planning on recommitting to clicker with him this summer. He is a bit lets say dramatic and I think I can either get him to explore new things by saying "if you don't I will beat you and be scary" so I am more terrifying that anything. Or I can get new things to be really positive an associated with food. I tried the I am more scary than anything else and honestly its not me. I find with food and me being calm he is way more willing to do things. At the end of last summer, he was doing things (walking on slash) that made him uncomfortable but he did it because I asked. He is super treat motivated but not yet mugging for treats. So, do you find it easier to use a mark word or a sound/noise? right now I am planning on reinforcing my "correct cue" and I am just not sure which is easier.


I use a sound. I started with a clicker and I recommend that. It's harder than it sounds to respond at the right moment to the behavior. Then I moved to a cluck sound when the horses and I were on firm ground ( about 3 months). 

The reason I recommend a sound instead of a word is that I want it to be extremely distinctive. Words come out of my mouth all the time, but I only make that cluck sound when I am telling my horse "yes!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

jillybean19 said:


> I'm training my boy specifically to be a reiner. In general, my approach has been to use "normal" training methods to guide him into doing what I want him to do, and then clicking and treating when he responds correctly. I've discovered he gets very frustrated when he has to guess what I want - he wants to get it right, and RIGHT NOW! So, I do my research to see what other people have done to teach different maneuvers.
> 
> In the case of a spin, I recently read this suggestion:
> Trot your horse to the left, then ask for a spin to the right (like a rollback). This will give you some momentum going into the spin, but put the weight back on the hind in order to turn around. However, after one or two quick steps, trot off in the direction you just spun (to the right) to maintain momentum. To practice a spin to the left, just reverse everything. As she gets better at this and gives you the speed and response you want, ask for a few more steps, then a few more, etc. until you're getting your turns.
> 
> The trick to this for us is figuring out where the most effective "click" spot will be. I would say, at first, that it's probably after she does the quick turn and trots off a few steps. Then, as we've said before, don't click unless she gives you a few more quick steps. Eventually, you can start clicking in the spin since she'll connect the faster steps with the click.
> 
> Another option is to really refine your cues. My boy knows to get his butt in gear when he hears me kiss - I imagine he'd speed up his spin (when we get there) if I kissed to let him know I want more out of him. Then, I'd just click and treat when he goes a little faster.
> 
> On a final note - you can teach this from the ground. My boarder has me working with her horse and swears by Parelli, so I had to learn a few things about it from her before she was comfortable with me working with her horse for her. (I'm not entirely new to it, but I think I feel about Parelli the same way a lot of people feel about CT lol.) Anyway, one thing she had me do was to use the horses "zones" to move away from pressure. I did notice that her horses pivoted really well when she used the front zone (head/neck/shoulder) to move her horses away from her. I did try it with my boy, and, being as responsive as he is when I lift my hands, he did a nice roll-back lol. If you're quick on your feet, you could ask for more from the ground and reward for quicker responses, then have it translate into the saddle!


Jillybean, thank you for the help. I am very excited to try the mounted methods you suggested! I have slow feet so I will not be trying the ground method because I am too slow on the ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

Quick update:

Flash is very reliably moving off my leg cues. I put a bit in his mouth, but have yet to pull on it. After being trained with the cordeo, he actually picked up on the leg cues more than the weight of the reins on his neck, so I can literally ride him with no hands (including using a leg squeeze to say "woah")!

We worked at a trot for a few days in the round pen and I only clicked and treated for him trotting slow and collected. One of the first things I taught him was to tuck his head, so he automatically tried doing that and now he's collecting very well with his head on the vertical. Shortly afterward, I asked him to step it up to a lope and he's doing just as great - nice, collected, head tucked, and slow. Moreover, because I wanted more space, I started free-longing him in the arena, and he's going in perfect circles around me and keeping his attention on me! My vet was very impressed when she saw me longing him in the arena without a line and getting great behavior from him.

It literally took him three 15-minute rides from the point where I asked him to trot with me on him for the very first time to him moving off my leg cues and travelling around the arena doing serpentines as well as going around the outside rail (which is still new to him).

Today, a trainer was out there that is very well respected in our area. He doesn't use clicker training, but is familiar with it being used with horses and uses his own form of positive reinforcement (I'm not sure about the details). He was ver impressed with Flash and can't wait to see what he does in the future.

I'm so proud of my baby! I'll post a video sooner or later. But for now, I'm off to bed until next time!


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## jillybean19

*Update with videos!*

Since I have limited time until school’s out next Friday, I decided to focus on Flash’s longing skills, particularly those that will help when we’re riding. We’ve been free longing in the arena both ways at a collected trot and lope. He’s improved considerably since his lightbulb moment on Tuesday when he figured out that we’re doing the same thing both ways and that I’m asking him to collect around the entire circle rather than just in one spot on the circle. Even his bad side (going to the right) is looking pretty good!

I’m only clicking and treating for him going completely around the circle and then some since this is still new, but we’re trying to lengthen how long he does it. Unfortunately, trying to record at the same time complicates the process, so this is less impressive than what he does when I’m focused on him and using my body language correctly. However, they still do a decent job of showing how great he’s doing!

Afterwards, I cooled him down by riding bareback with just the halter on him (no reins), and he’s really got leg-reining down. I think these little mini-rides are doing wonders for him and we can go in figure 8’s, speed up, slow down, etc all with just my leg and voice cues. I’ll have to get a video of him riding soon to show him off. I’m so proud of him.


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## Anatopism

I've been reading this thread all day .. stopped for a nap with my dog at some point and jumped back in  

This is all amazing stuff - I have successful experience with operant conditioning both with and without a clicker with a few different animals, including my dog, and a foster African Grey Parrot. I house sit for a woman who has trained her cats to do things most people don't realize cats would ever do on cue, and helped her teach them how to lie down on command. Their most recent trick is to speak on command - which is mighty hilarious from a cat. I'm certainly a fan of CT, as i've seen it work with such animals as dramatically different as parrots and dogs 

It's exciting to know that it can be just as successful with a horse, and plan on leasing a horse in the near future for the first time, and hope to practice some clicker training with him. 

I do have a question as far as age of horses go. For everyone actively posting here with there experiences... do you find it more or less difficult to CT a horse who has 'been around the block' so to speak, and does not push their limits, or try as many new behaviors, as compared to Jillybean's Flash, who is completely new to all forms of training, and more likely to offer new behaviors to capture and shape? Is age a factor in how you approach CT with a horse, or is the individual personality of the horse still more prominent?


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## jillybean19

Anatopism - welcome to the thread and I'm so glad yo've had such wonderful CT experiences! It's an exciting world of training when it comes to horses  I did have a few thoughts reading your post:



Anatopism said:


> It's exciting to know that it can be just as successful with a horse, and plan on leasing a horse in the near future for the first time, and hope to practice some clicker training with him.


Just throwing caution to the wind here - because you're leasing the horses, you may run into a few issues. I don't know if you plan on leasing your horse for the rest of its life, but if not, that means it'll eventually go to someone new. While I prefer CT, I don't know that I'd CT a horse that I didn't plan on keeping because I don't trust that the person who got him after me wouldn't continue that training. You'll have to talk to the person you're leasing from about this.

I imagine that a horse that has been trained using "traditional" methods would adapt back and forth easier to whatever the next person's methods are, but continuity and consistency in training and handling is so important to horses. On one extreme end of the spectrum, with a young horse still at a critical training stage and only ever having been exposed to clicker training, it can actually get dangerous if I don't have my clicker with me and we try something new to him or even just something that he hasn't practiced enough because he'll try more and more behaviors thinking he hasn't figured out what I want yet and get frustrated because he just can't get it right. He doesn't understand the release of pressure as a reward because he was simply never taught that way. Not only would we have to start from square one like a new horse in training, but I imagine it would be much more difficult than beginning with a "blank slate" because he already has formed his ideas about how the world and training works using CT. I guess this is one downside of using CT before teaching a horse how negative reinforcement works, but Flash is my forever horse and I don't even know if anybody but me will ever even work with him much less own him.

I doubt you will run into such extreme consequences of using a clicker training with your horse, but it is something to think about. You'll have to decide what's best for your horse and its situation. (Even outside of clicker training, this is one of the difficult things about anyone using a new horse whether a lease or just borrowing for a ride - everyone rides and trains differently and I trust very few people to work with my horses, including the traditionally trained ones!)



Anatopism said:


> I do have a question as far as age of horses go. For everyone actively posting here with there experiences... do you find it more or less difficult to CT a horse who has 'been around the block' so to speak, and does not push their limits, or try as many new behaviors, as compared to Jillybean's Flash, who is completely new to all forms of training, and more likely to offer new behaviors to capture and shape? Is age a factor in how you approach CT with a horse, or is the individual personality of the horse still more prominent?


This relates back up to what I said earlier about having a horse that's only ever been trained using CT - you may actually have an advantage by teaching CT to a horse that's "been around the block". It does take some transition time to re-wire their brain to understand that offering behaviors is a good thing, but it can be done fairly easily. Most people who do clicker training (or own horses in general) don't start with babies like I do. I've been helping my dad train horses since I was 10, so I wanted to start with scratch with my first horse and so bought a baby that'd only been halter broke. In fact, not only are most people working with horses that have "been around the block", but some of the best success stories (ask PunksTank) are about horses that have been around the worst blocks and aren't only wired to respond to "traditional" training but mainly behave the way they do out of pain and fear. You couldn't get farther than that from CT, where a horse learns to feel comfortable not only doing what he's been told, but also comfortable enough to try new things!

Since operant conditioning is a natural thing to all living creatures, you're just opening the door for them to behave a new way with you. When I was thinking about purchasing a green-broke 7-year-old Arabian, he had major bridling issues that would have been a deal-breaker. He got super stressed every time they even reached for his poll and would shoot his head up in the hair to avoid them putting the bridle on. After they spent a week trying to fix the problem, I told them to stop working with him on it and let me try. I successfully taught him the concept of clicker training, to lower his head when presenting the bridle (helping him to relax and focus on me), and then to accept the bridle without issue. Though this is the only thing I ever worked with him on clicker training, every time the problem reappeared, I simply brought out the clicker and the bridle was on in a few minutes, so he clearly remembered and understood the concept. I chose not to clicker train him beyond that because it was just easier to work through the system we had, but thinking back, I might have gotten along with him a lot better if I'd kept it up (he had a very worried and stressed personality that took his attention everywhere and he rarely relaxed and focused on his job).


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## Anatopism

Thank you for your thoughtful and informative responses  I will need to try out CT with my friend's mini. I'm not sure how old he is, but he is pretty shy, and it takes them a while to get him to come up to them. They've used their dog to try to herd him back to them, but it usually just results in the horse getting tired and frustrated enough to just give up. I'd like to be able to practice gaining his trust, in order to have him be more enjoyable to work with - I'd rather come to tasty treats than a big dog chasing me around :/



jillybean19 said:


> Just throwing caution to the wind here - because you're leasing the horses, you may run into a few issues. I don't know if you plan on leasing your horse for the rest of its life, but if not, that means it'll eventually go to someone new. While I prefer CT, I don't know that I'd CT a horse that I didn't plan on keeping because I don't trust that the person who got him after me wouldn't continue that training. You'll have to talk to the person you're leasing from about this.


He's an 'older' horse (I don't think the woman told me his actual age) that is part of a farm with a strong focus on 'natural horsemanship'. He is one of a handful of horses that they offer for full or half lease. He appears to be one of their best (or the best) beginner horses they have, and I'm hoping this means he has all the basics down, and that I be able to teach him things like responding with more subtle queues than he's used to, rather than working on a more complicated behavior from the ground up. 

They require lessons at the beginning of each lease, and depending on the level of the rider, may require them a little while longer into a lease - which I plan to do. What I was looking for is a place that I felt would be more open to working with me in less than traditional ways, as my ultimate goal is to own a horse that does not require tack to safely ride. If they are more rigid/set in their teaching style, or require a specific lesson plan before "experimenting" so to speak with something like CT, or never allow CT, I'm OK with that too. I don't want to encroach, as my primary goal with this lease is simply to become more knowledgeable about husbandry and tack, and simply learning from the horse itself. 

But I do plan to ask first for assistance with their trainer, rather than jump into it.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Anatopism, my answer based on my limited experiences (4 horses and a donkey; 3 yo Appendix filly, 7 yo Appy gelding, 13 yo KSMH and 13 yo Paint mares, 6 yo Mediterranean Jenny) for 10 months CT. 

Each responds differently based on their experiences (so age plays a role) and personality. 

The young equines are quicker to offer other behaviors. The gelding likes to play fetch and lifts his feet and holds them up for you with a tap. I am sure he could do a lot more but I don't work with him or the filly as much because they aren't mine. 

The older mares (my horses) both had attitudes that were part of what needed work. They both were very responsive to positive reinforcement for "attitude" changes (ears forward, head down, relaxed demeanor, etc). It was a real game changer! We got their ground manners and attitudes up to excellent and are now working on in-saddle improvement. 

For me, CT has taken me in a different direction with each horse. I don't use CT alone as my only tool. I also use pressure/release when it works better. But I never go back and forth using both on the same training issue. That can really confuse a creature and should NEVER be done (see "Poisoned Cue" by A. Kurland). 

CT is great, but it looks a lot easier than it really is. Use a clicker. It is easier to do to get your timing and it is very clear to your animal. Practice often, especially at first with animals new to CT. Make sessions short and always end with a win. Attitude is always "this is fun!" and it will be!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Oh, and one more important key strategy: alternate between "move" behaviors and "be still" behaviors. That way the animal doesn't think it always moves or always stands still with CT. That was one of my early mistakes with the Paint mare!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anatopism

Thanks, Tiffany! I'll check out "Poisoned Cue" as suggested. I forgot I also trained a rat on clicker. lol. She was the quickest at picking up new tricks, but also the greediest with food. She's also the reason I bought a Karen Pryor clicker rather than the box-shaped ones with the foil sheet where your whole thumb goes in -they're LOUD and to a rat, that high pitched CLACK is counter productive. The Karen Pryor clicker has a gentler click, but I wonder if it will be loud enough to be noticed by a horse. 

Another thing I meant to ask - CT with horses on the ground seems manageable and easy if you know how to CT in general, but how does one treat a horse from the back in time? Do they actually help you out and lean back to grab a treat, or are you only working behaviors that they have mastered consistently on the ground? 

For anyone teaching their horse to 'touch' particular objects... Do you notice your horse becoming more bold or curious in general with new objects, as they learn that more and more things are rather mundane? Do you find this particular type of cue strengthens your horses trust in you, and can be applied to other actions "out in the world" to create a less spooky horse?


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## PunksTank

I'll jump in here  I like to sit back and see what everyone else has to say, but this is the part I love. I'm a ground person, while I work on mounted work, I so much rather be on the ground. Nothing tl do with disliking riding, but I love to watch as my horse thinks carefully through all the things she knows and figure out what it is I'm asking.
An example of this was when I taught her to stand and to come here. This was a battle for her, I made the mistake of teachibg her only in motion skills for a long while. Then asking her to stand really threw her for a loop! She did everything she could think of but didnt get what she was being rewarded for when she did nothing!!

This same mare is especially nervous. New things dont bother her so much but a new environment leaves her trembling and looking for escape. Teaching her to target has been a life saver. It exposed her to a massive number of new things but also built her confidence big time. Now she's targetting my dumpster thats big, metal and loud! She'll target my car and trees and will follow my crop target anywhere I bring it. It keeps her focused on what I want, shes determined to touch that target even if its in a new unfamiliar place. The other week I forgot to shut the tack room door and was walking her past it, she panicked and bolted backwards, she froze up and wouldn't take a single step to go past it. Rather than shutting the door I took the opportunity and got my target it took maybe 3 minutes before she was walking calmly back and forth past the door.

Yes targetting massively helps their overall acceptance of new things.


Also as for treating while mounted. The clicker needs to be solid for your horse. The sound needs to be a clear marker for "you did the right thing", then you just stop and reach forward and they can turn to get a bite. It is especially helpful if they know the cues from the ground first and only need to translate and reinforce the mounted cues.


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## PunksTank

I also wanted to add... unlike clicker training with small pets, with horses it is important never to skip the first step! When you're introducing the clicker and connecting the sound to the food reward the horse must always be standing calmly with his nose politely pointing away from you. Start with that skill, they may never invaded your space or mug you for treats, that earns them nothing (or a sharp noise may be needed if they get too pushy.) 
The first thing any horse will do when yhey realise you have food is to try to find where it is and how to get it, theyll start by diving into the source (your pocket). Which is why food may only be delivered when theyre standing calmly and facing away a bit.


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## shawnakarrasch

Standing patient and quiet is the most important behavior ever! That is why, from the get-go, I like to incorporate relaxation into positive reinforcement/clicker work. Even if you want a bright, energetic behavior like a piaffe or jumping, it is best done when it is done from a relaxed state. 

They will easily take food from the saddle. You may find that they are stiffer turning to one side but more supple going toward the other side. In just a few days you will se that they have become more flexible on both sides. Just an added bonus!! I also recommend feeding from both sides so they learn to wait to see which way to go. Ideally you want to teach them to stand with head forward watching you to see which way you are going to go....not the other way around.


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## Anatopism

Excellent and informative responses guys, thanks! Looking forward for more updates on how everyone is doing with their horses


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## PunksTank

Woops


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## PunksTank

So color me furious.
Its been a while since I've been doing any real clicker training, just been using it for the usual daily routine, no new skills. So basically I've just been doing it with my mare, she's learning to lunge because the vet says she has _got_ to loose some weight. She's doing exceptionally well and no longer uses a lunge line - I'm torn with a few things - but I'll get to that later...
So not much was happening on the CT front and I needed to go away for a few days (my brother got married! ) - my pony sitter is wonderful, my best friend since middle school. She loves my horses (especially the pony) and does CT with the little one when she has time. She's always been perfect, but she had a rough weekend while I was away.
She knows the routine with my mare, when something "scary" is happening (like the landscapers making funny noises outside) she'll freeze up at her stall door. I usually work her through these situations by getting her focused on the target and going outside. My pony sitter is used to this situation even though it doesn't happen often. 
Apparently something was lost in communication this week. Apparently my pony sitter was upset about something and forgot that you actually _do _need to give the food after you click. Apparently she did a LOT of target work with Tank, clicking but without giving any reward after. 

Needless to say when I got home I had trouble getting my mare out of her stall (I had brought the fans out and they were pretty terrifying). When I got out the target she didn't care, she did eventually touch it for me, for which I clicked + treated, but when the target was in a less comfortable place (closer to the fans) she just didn't want to take the gamble. After much work I got her outside. I started our lunging work again and she moved out when asked and switched up to a trot, but whenever I clicked she wouldn't stop for the treat - she just kind of ignored me...


SO I'm frustrated But I'm taking this as an opportunity to get serious and get her training on track. 
I've started again completely from the beginning, this time I'm using an actual clicker (not a smooch noise). She was the first horse I worked with and I was new and unsure when I started her - so I'm discovering a few gaps in our previous training (or maybe they were things I let slip), but I'm curious some ideas on how to work through these little issues.

I'm working on just the first step of standing calmly and looking away - I'm finding she's not very calm at all - she's actually very worked up, desperate for the click. She fidgets a lot - faces away in both directions back and forth, she'll back up and step forward, touch me then pull away, toss her head. I click and treat when she turns her head away but I just can't seem to achieve "calm". 

Also, I do have to keep lunging her, but I'm a little torn about the way I'm doing it - I can't think of another way to do it though. I started by lunging her like normal and C+T when she responds correctly. I started with a line and a lunge whip and asked her to move out, C+T when she moved out and walked, I repeated this until she understood walk and to stop at the click. She's figuring it out to wait for which direction I want her to go and has progressed to trotting. She still has trouble with downward transitions, but she picks up her trot well. She's been doing great but I still feel like I've been relying on a lot of Pressure+release and the C+T is just a cherry on the cake, not so much what she's working for. Except now she's doing so well I just need to use the lunge whip, she'll lunge around me without a line (even in her big paddock!) - I prefer this because the circles are easier to make bigger and I like to change things up and make her move down straight lines up and down the area and continue the circle without having to use a line to make her listen. She's doing _fantastic_ with that, but again I still feel like I'm using more Pressure/Release than I'd like using the whip as actual pressure (not just for more clear communication).


Thanks in advance I'm looking forward to some advice I'm feeling pretty torn right now. Having trouble sticking with things.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Punkstank, I wish I had advice, but I think you are doing what I would do. I definitely think going back to an actual clicker is good. 

What about walking her and CT to reinforce downward transitions? I have found walking beside my mare and clicking just as I stop gets her to stay right with me and stop. I didn't use it to lunge her but for improving her stop when riding and it seemed to transfer well to in saddle work. 

Also, can you change up the food reward? My donkey was uninterested in CT training until I started using some new treats that have this wonderful anise smell. Now she loves it!

We just moved from our rental of two years to a new place a month ago. It's very exciting because the new place is 33 acres of grass. But it is a "fixer upper" old ranch hand house and land, so there is a lot to do. Just packing and moving cut into my horse time. Now building stalls, paddocks, an arena, fixing windows, weed eating endlessly, discing and harrowing, screwing down the barn roof, fixing gates...You get the picture. Plus it is year end at work (school) and that is many evenings of banquets, graduations,etc. that require longer hours there.

But the good part of all of this is the attitude of my horses, thanks to CT. They hang around in their pasture right by the house and ask for attention. Its wonderful to have them outside my windows and watch them roam so much space. When I call them, they come galloping at full speed to whoever I am! They haven't gotten much CT or riding for two months, but they are interested and well behaved when I do have time to ride or train. 

Hang in there! You will turn it back around very soon.


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## PunksTank

Thanks Tiffany, that really helped. Things had been going really well until tonight too!
I've been working with my mare extensively, she's lunging exceptionally well now, without a line. I'm still using a lunge whip, but really just for communication now (it feels at least) sometimes I need to wave it around a bit more than I'd like to get that Trot, but she's still learning the verbal cues. She's coming along though!
I rode her today too and she did better than I imagined, her "go" button is much better than ever before, more consistent and less stop and go. She's steering well, we're working on relying more on leg and less on reins but she's coming along, I'm very proud of her!

But tonight was terrible, just awful.
I've been tying her in my barn to groom her, it's right next to her stall, just a single tie, not cross ties. So she's free to swing in both directions, but I encourage her to stand in the middle. Today she was nervous and fidgetty the whole time. Just trying to get her to stay still was a challenge, I stepped back to switch brushes and she spun herself around into a little pocket where I keep my wheelbarrow, it's about 5 feet wide and she doesn't really fit in there. She spun herself into and and wedged herself, I went to help her unwedge but she panicked. She leapt out and broke her halter and bolted to her stall. 
I gave her some time to calm herself and got my target and treat bag. I spent some time on just C+T for being calm, not doing anything, then I started with the target. I just wanted to encourage her out past where she was tied and back into her stall calmly. I just didn't want to leave her terrified of the tying spot. It took a good 20 minutes just to get her a few steps out her stall door, using the target. Her attention was all over and everything was terrifying, she would shoot back to her stall when a bird chirped. After 20 minutes I needed to reload my treats so I set up my camera too. I'll attach the video of what happened after. At the point of the video she had calmed down a great deal, but was still very frightened. I started with a lead rope in case we made it outside but got rid of it when it got more in the way than helpful. 

Here are my questions: Should I use pressure? Should I use her lead rope to try and stop her from going back to her stall? Or should I let it be her option to stay with the target? What are some methods to help her be less afraid of new places in general - it doesn't matter how slow I go, nothing is slow enough for her. She'll go only as far as the target then shoot backwards to wherever she felt safe. When she's tense and nervous what can I do to help her out of it? What are some ways to help build her own confidence? Is CT still the best option for this horse? Is she just extremely disrespectful? Distrusting? What can I do to fix this? I'm so overwhelmed. Is it better I hire someone? There are no professional clicker trainers in my area so I'd have to send her to someone who uses another style of training. I'm at a loss and my heart is broken, I just don't know where to go from here so any help would be hugely appreciated.

Here's the video, I know the halter on her is too big, like I said she broke her halter so that's the back up.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Punks, it is so cool to see you and your horse. You are both beautiful!

I am just a baby with CT so I'm not sure what would be best to do, but I will share my ideas and observations.

My April will return to her stall like your mare, when I leave it open. And she isn't an anxious girl like your mare. I close the stall door when we work. 

Can you alternate target behaviors? My horses get bored with me asking for the same thing, and I try to alternate movement with stillness, easy with hard, favorite with detested. Roudy loves to lift his feet, and trembles with excitement to do it. I have no idea why! Ella loves to "strike a pose." Shes my couch potato. Is there something she can do in her stall that she likes to do? It could build her confidence. 

Finally, you got her back out and continued to ask for more when it was probably a good stopping time. Sometimes it seems like the more we want something the more the horse resists. I try not to care. It's hard tho. 

Don't loose heart! I hope Shawna comes by to give us ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

Thank you Tiffany 
I think your right, I wanted an awful lot while she was still pretty upset, but im concerned I may not be able to get her out tomorrow. I've discovered she's much worse in summer, in winter her anxiety almost completely goes away. She has really bad allergy to bugs that makes her belly miserably itchy. I've got her on some heavy antihistamines and anti itch creams but they dont seem to make much difference. I dont want to make excuses for our issues though and do need to find a way for her to function like a real horse.
I think targetting was her favorite until recently when my pony sitter used the target to get her outside several times but didnt treat with the click. So I think she doesn't trust the target anymore. I spent some time having her just target around her stall and practicing just standing calmly in the past few days. Thats all built her up again and got her looking for the click again. But I think your right, I wanted too much too fast. Tomorrow I'll try slower.

Lately I've been switching between using CT and not which I think confuses her, so I'm going to try to be more strictly CT. I get unsure sometimes about how much pressure to use or not use.
Thank you for being such a great support group n_n


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## howrsegirl123

That was really interesting OP. I may want to try this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

OK, just stopping in quick. We haven't been doing clicker training because Flash came up lame in both fronts a little over 2 weeks ago. Diagnosis is possible (though managed and now much better) laminitis as well as thin soles. Now he's on the lowest-sugar diet possible, meaning I can't use any of the treats I've used in the past. As it turns out, even carrots are high in sugars! 

Now I need to get new treats. My trimmer (also a good friend and mentor who knows us both well) recommended hay pellets or cubes. Any other suggestions for a possibly laminitis-prone horse?


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## PunksTank

Oh JillyBean! I'm so sorry to hear about Flash, poor boy. I've been having trouble with my mare too, who's seriously overweight I've been mixing Timothy hay pellets with beet pulp as treats. She's not as eager about it but still likes it enough. I've also heard Celery is a good one. I'm curious/hopeful people have more ideas. You want to avoid alfalfa too for laminitic horses, so be careful with the hay products. If he has thin soles too do you have him on a hoof supplement? Brewer's yeast is a great inexpensive one. 



As for my mare's issues, we've discovered that the antihistamine she was on for her sweet itch could have been causing her relapse - so now she's off that. Hopefully I'll see a difference in a few days. Yesterday I worked with her on targeting her way in and out of the barn several times. She did a little better each time, but she's still very nervous passing the tack room and her reflection in the door still makes her nervous. This morning I tried 'tying' her (I ran the rope through the loop but didn't tie it in anyway. She stood like a very good girl while I groomed her shortly (and scratched all her itchy spots) but she was still very tense and distracted and gawking down at the door- I thought she was scared of something outside but I think it may really be her reflection. Either way, I'm not sure how to help get her over that. I stood her next to the door and let her examine it, C+T when she showed signs of calming down. Unfortunately my naughty little pony was upset she was taking so long to go out and was banging his bucket around, so each time she softened up he would do something and she'd jump.

Does anyone know the right way to approach this situation?


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## PunksTank

Sorry for the double post, but I HAD to share today's events!
I decided some exercise probably wouldn't hurt Tank (my mare I always go on about) so I decided to hop on. This is Tank's second _real_ ride, I've sat on her often but only really made her actually work this time and last. I picked spots along the fence as our goals. She understands steering and walk on, but still very wiggly between the reins. So when we made it to our target she'd get her C+T, hoping to eventually build up to straighter lines to our targets and with reminders to keep moving. Well we made it quite a bit around the paddock when I wanted her to go to her water bucket. Silly me, I had hung her fly sheet on the fence while we rode, she just got this fly sheet and has never seen it on the fence. So she was very nervous, she drew a line around it that she would not pass to get close to it, but my goal was right next to it. Rather than seeing this as an opportunity to help her deal with this I (stupidly) decided to fight it out. Soon my legs were sore and I'd only achieved backwards movement. She'd go backwards 10 steps and forward 5, needless to say we didn't get too far. Finally I'd had it - I C+T when she went forward but she wouldn't cross that line she'd drawn - I insisted, she crossed it then she was 10 leaps to the left and I was standing on the ground! I don't even know how it happened! I was on her back then I was standing on the ground and she was 10 leaps to the left of me xD 
She rushed back to be, very confused, so I took to opportunity to be humbled and grateful to be alive. I took a step back and hand walked her to the spots she deemed scary, I shook the fly sheet and rattled the water buckets and showed her the gopher wasn't behind the weeds. I C+T when she stood calmly and slowly upped the anti with her. She started frantically trying to avoid each thing and ended touching the fly sheet and standing calmly everywhere else she was tense. 
So I got back on and we walked the perimeter of the fence and past the scary spots several times in each direction, she was a million and a half times better! Like magic!! I LOVE CT!

I hopped off on the good note and lunged her a bit walk/trot and she was fantastic. Then walked her back in the barn through the scary aisle. I worked slowly and had her stop and stand calmly in all the spots she's deemed scary, C+T when she was calm and relaxed. When we got to the last 'scary' spot my Belgian decided to throw his halter on the ground and she spooked, so we repeated the process 2 more times. The second time she had no hesitations, still more tense than I'd like, but MUCH better.


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## jillybean19

I learned LOTS overnight about calculating the sugar in foods and what REALLY has a high and low impact on blood glucose. For example, I made my own horse treats (1 1/2 cups unsweetened applesauce, 1 cup oatmeal, and 1/2 cup flour mixed together and baked at 350 for 25 minutes) which ended up with a whopping total of 65 grams of sugar in the entire batch, or 0.5% of a horse's total diet. Considering it's recommended that diets for IR horses should have a sugar ration of 10% or less of their total diet, that half a percentage doesn't seem too shabby 

On the other hand, I also picked up sugar-free peppermints, but noticed the only difference between the regular and "sugar-free" ones were that sugar alcohol, and artificial sweetener, was used instead of sugar. After doing some research, the specific sugar alcohol used in these mints (hydrogenated starch hydrolysate) still as 66% of the effect on blood glucose as regular sugar - so the only difference it would make is that I could feed maybe one more "sugar-free" mint and have the same effect as one less regular mint :/ Moreover, after converting the grams of the HSH into equivalent grams of pure sugar, the entire bag (33 pieces) as 350 grams of sugar, or roughly 3% of a horse's total diet! That's definitely not good...

So, home-made horse treats for clicker training it is! And I won't ever trust those "sugar-free" labels again...


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## jillybean19

Oh, and I don't think they taste great, but they don't taste bad either and have a hint of apple flavor to them (yes, I did eat a few haha). Considering I'd definitely chose those over some of my Flash's other favorite foods - and he's FAR from a picky eater - I'm having high hopes for these treats. I found that timothy hay cubes work for him, but he's not exactly "eager" either (it may have been how hot and muggy it was as well). I can't wait to see how he does today with our new chewies!


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## klkavich

Excellent thread, jillybean19!

I haven't had a chance to read through all of it yet, but am very intrigued (and impressed) by the first 3 pages or so. I also plan to start reading your blog 

I have a question, when would you start clicker training? I'm planning on getting a 5 month old filly this fall and really want to introduce CT but is that too soon?

Thanks!


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## PunksTank

klkavich said:


> Excellent thread, jillybean19!
> 
> I haven't had a chance to read through all of it yet, but am very intrigued (and impressed) by the first 3 pages or so. I also plan to start reading your blog
> 
> I have a question, when would you start clicker training? I'm planning on getting a 5 month old filly this fall and really want to introduce CT but is that too soon?
> 
> Thanks!



I've been just starting some basic CT work with a 5 month old colt, the hardest part is that they learn so darn fast!! You've also got to watch more carefully what and how much you're feeding them, as delicately growing foals you don't want to through their system out of balance, so consult your vet about exactly what amounts of what sorts of food she can get. Also my colt choked on a bit of alfalfa pellets (at dinner, not CT work) so I crush them up now, so I'd be careful feeding anything with larger pellets - but it could have just been a fluke, maybe he was rushing or something, but I'm extra cautious.


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## jillybean19

klkavich said:


> Excellent thread, jillybean19!
> 
> I haven't had a chance to read through all of it yet, but am very intrigued (and impressed) by the first 3 pages or so. I also plan to start reading your blog
> 
> I have a question, when would you start clicker training? I'm planning on getting a 5 month old filly this fall and really want to introduce CT but is that too soon?
> 
> Thanks!


Thanks! And sorry, I can only maintain one blog at a time, so my professional one took priority 

And, it's never too soon to start CT - just make sure your training sessions are age appropriate in length and skill!


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## klkavich

PunksTank said:


> I've been just starting some basic CT work with a 5 month old colt, the hardest part is that they learn so darn fast!! You've also got to watch more carefully what and how much you're feeding them, as delicately growing foals you don't want to through their system out of balance, so consult your vet about exactly what amounts of what sorts of food she can get. Also my colt choked on a bit of alfalfa pellets (at dinner, not CT work) so I crush them up now, so I'd be careful feeding anything with larger pellets - but it could have just been a fluke, maybe he was rushing or something, but I'm extra cautious.


I didn't even think of what treats to give! Thank you for bringing that up. She is 3/4 QH and 1/4 Andalusian, so the breeder told me no extra feed, just pasture in summer and hay in winter. She said since she's 25% Andalusian, she will become overweight quickly if she has excess feed. Maybe I'll ask her about treats as well, but what would people suggest for foal treats that would be only used for CT and putting on/taking off halter (I always treat after a horse comes to me from the field and they get the halter on, and after I take it off, so they stand calmly instead of taking off to the other horses).

Thanks!


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## klkavich

Hi, Just as an update, I was reading other forums and some people give Cheerios to their foals. Anyone else do this? I can't really think of any cons, since they're healthy, low in sugar, small and cheap. I'm guessing you would only go through a maximum of a handful in a 5 min session. What do people think?


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## PunksTank

This is the toughest part, dealing with potentially overweight horses. My mare is terribly overweight - I have to lunge her almost every day and limit her hay/grass to an extreme. I use beet pulp shreds and timothy hay pellets as treats for CT. Jillybean also posted a good sugar free recipe. I've also heard of people using celery.

To be honest, a 5 month old foals attention span won't last long enough to really do much damage with extra feed  But using sugar free and healthier options won't hurt either.

I wonder if anyone else has ideas for healthy treats?




So I wanted to post up some updates on my spooky mare, I really hope someone can help me with ideas. 
The past few days she's made it to the door ok, but would freak out and leap out the door when we got close. So today I really wanted to focus on taking things very slowly. I stopped every step or two and waited for her to calm down, C+T when she settled down,but _every step_ she had to go through the process of being terrified and ready to explode and slowly coming down. It's only maybe 30 steps from her stall door to the back door, but it took us nearly as many minutes to get out the door! It seemed like every step we took it took her longer to calm down, by the time we were close to the door she was so nervous she could barely stand still, she just squirmed.
When we got close to the door she freaked and jumped out. So I turned her around and made her do it again, 3 or 4 times. These times I didn't stop as often I made noises or wiggled the rope (not hard) to keep her focused on me, C+T when she turned her attention back on me (instead of waiting for calmness I just wanted her to focus on me). I made her stop and wait by the door and only step out when I said. These times went by much quicker and she was much more focused on me, but she was really still very afraid the whole time. I feel like there's nothing I can do to make her be less afraid.

Do I C+T when she's calm or when she's focused on me? Do I go real slow letting her calm herself slowly or do I make her ignore the things she's nervous about and keep going? What are some basic despooking methods with CT? Maybe if she's less afraid of objects in general she'll be less afraid of walking through a cluttered barn? 
If anyone has _any_ ideas I'm just stuck with my poor mare. The rest of her training is going thrillingly, she's lunging and working on her riding skills exceptionally well. She's coming along so well in every other aspect of her life, but this nonsensical fear is just gonna be the end of me! I can tolerate fear for a good reason - but exploding because the pony sneezed is just infuriating.


I wanted to mention though I've been using CT with several other horses at our rescue and things are going so well! We've got a sweet little pony mare who's working with one of our younger volunteers, teaching her about CT and the pony is learning about steering now. The pony was only ever used for pony rides and is sweet as can be but doesn't know much yet. The pair are so loving each other and learning so much from each other!!


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## PunksTank

klkavich said:


> Hi, Just as an update, I was reading other forums and some people give Cheerios to their foals. Anyone else do this? I can't really think of any cons, since they're healthy, low in sugar, small and cheap. I'm guessing you would only go through a maximum of a handful in a 5 min session. What do people think?


That's a great idea!! Cheerios are basically all that's in horse's regular grain but fluffed in a way that it's a lot less per 'serving'. If you limit it to about 4 or 5 cheerios per treat it shouldn't go by too fast or be too big a deal. If you can look for an organic or sugar free alternative would be great too! Great idea!!


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## PunksTank

Sorry to monopolize the thread  I really would love to hear how everyone else's clicker trained horses are going?
Does anyone have good videos of some skills you've taught your horses? I'd love to see other people's work 


I got a video today of Tank leaving her stall to go to her paddock, this was her best day yet, this time I used the target. Each time she got distracted and went to blow or snort I tried to get her focused on the target again, by wiggling it a little and saying "touch it" She was still very tense and reactive, but she made it out smoothly.
Sorry I had to put you on top of the hay bale  but it was the best spot to see her. When I started her stall guard was down, so the time it took for me to set up the camera and get my things she stayed nervous at her stall door. She came out smoother than she usually does - but after the video ended there was still a ways of aisle and she was much more tense and 'blowy' through there. But still this was her smoothest time out. Sorry my butts in the camera most of the time xD
I'm looking into magnesium supplements for her now in hopes that'll help.


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## Saddlebag

I use alfalfa cubes and break them up into small wafers, or a small handful (tbsp.) of senior pellets. Altho I have a clicker I soon found it a nuisance and have switched to clucker training with my tongue off the roof of my mouth. The horse caught on very quickly. When offering the treat I always extend my arm so the horse has to turn his head away from my body to get the treat. This reduces the chance of mugging. JillyBean, Snickers is ignoring you. When leading him and he turns his head away, start walking in the opposite direction. Don't worry about the yank he'll feel, just keep going and don't look at him. Walk a dozen strides then turn back again. After three or four times he'll start paying more attention to you and will want to watch your shoulders so avoid getting yanked. Where you look tells him where you are going.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag- are you talking to me about the horse in the video? Or are you reffering to something further back in the thread?
I didnt see jillybean having trouble leading? Just trouble with his sore feet?

If your referring to the video - theres no room to turn her in the aisle, its too narrow. Also moving forward is difficult enough, even if I turned her around we wouldn't get anywhere. You're right, she's not paying attention to me, she's focusing on all the silly things that scare her. I'm trying to get her to focus on me without the use of force, force usually leads to all out panic with her. I'm trying to find a way to make her choose to focus on me rather than what she perceives as scary. Got any ideas?


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## Saddlebag

It can be a fine line between a horse being snorty about everything genuine fear. It's all in how we react to it. The next time you take her from the stall, walk out of the barn with the bearing of a soldier, eyes front. You are going somewhere and she's coming with you. Once you're out of the barn, keep going. When you ask her to stop, stop like a soldier, leaning your shoulder's back a bit. It will be exaggerated at first. Turn her away from you and march back to her stall. Do not offer a treat in the stall or you will give her the wrong message.


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## Saddlebag

When I mentioned the mugging, there are CT naysayers who will read this, not about your horse.


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## PunksTank

Thank you saddlebag, I'll try to be more assertive.
This video today was her best day yet, I don't mind a little tension or some huffing and puffing, but generally her body is so tense she can hardly move. When she does move she's frantic and wide eyed and any sound will leave her explosive, even the pony blowing his nose. She will bolt backwards or leap forwards, which ever way will not hit me. She gets so tense and can't settle down, she dances in place ready to explode. So this isn't just being a little anxious.
Also when I lead her forward she will often freeze and not budge, I will dislodge her by yielding her shoulder but often that leads to bolting backwards or just exploding in general. 
Following her target today was the closest we got to calm, I just need tk get her to stay focused on me and not everything else. Which I dont know how to do, anything physical results in explosions or more tension.


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## jillybean19

Saddlebag said:


> I use alfalfa cubes and break them up into small wafers, or a small handful (tbsp.) of senior pellets.


I can't use alfalfa cubes  But alternating between timothy hay cubes broken into wafers and alternated with my home-made low-sugar treats is wonderful!



Saddlebag said:


> JillyBean, Snickers is ignoring you. When leading him and he turns his head away, start walking in the opposite direction. Don't worry about the yank he'll feel, just keep going and don't look at him. Walk a dozen strides then turn back again. After three or four times he'll start paying more attention to you and will want to watch your shoulders so avoid getting yanked. Where you look tells him where you are going.



Yes, I did have some troubles with Snickers ignoring me, but I actually sold him back in April. I'm not sure if I posted it on here, though? I guess I must have. Flash, the palomino quarter horse gelding that I'm working with, is a much better horse for me.

Speaking of which, i have a great update that I"m so excited to tell you all about! But I will have to finish reading before I post...


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## PunksTank

Oh and also, I have taken the method of firmly marching her butt in and out several times. This would get her out and back in, but never made the fear go away. She still freezes at both doors and requires work to get through it. She has gone through this aisle hundreds of times she was scared at first and we worked through it, months have gone by and now shes terrified of the aisle again. But this time nothing is working her through it, its like each morning she forgets getting used to it yesterday.


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## jillybean19

I have updates! And an important insight...

So, Flash has had a few weeks off due to lameness. During this time, I was making lots of videos to share on HF so others could help me evaluate his lameness. In letting others evaluate him, though, something I didn't realize I was doing came up. Many people commented on how "still" his hind end was, like he was having back pain. I guessed (and I think at least partially correctly) that this might actually have to do with the clicker training. Before he went lame, Flash and I had been working on keeping everything SLOW, but not necessarily collected. I didn't want him taking off on me at a trot when I finally climbed up there, especially since I'm breaking him bareback and in a halter. However, I had accidentally reinforced the complete disengagement of his hind end. He wasn't reaching or moving naturally - not even his tail. It was almost tucked, like he was intimidated or parylized. (Though I did take pride when someone mentioned they just may not be used to seeing such a young horse so "contained".) Of course, non-clicker people won't understand how I might have "trained" my horse to be so still in his hind-end - but he immediately started tracking up and engaging better as soon as I focused on it yesterday. He was actually moving like a horse! *Just beware - for better or worse, you may not realize all the things your horse is learning with CT!*

Which brings me to today's session. He was behaving SO well, listening to my cues to walk, trot, lope, stop (we're still working on downward transitions), and back up. He also needs to learn better manners for the farrier, so I picked out all his feet and then did some leg stretches with him - both to loosen him up and to get him used to letting us do with his feet whatever we will and for how long we want to. With how great the day was going, I decided to ride, which we haven't done in 3 weeks. Now, remember, he's still a young teenager at the fresh age of three and he's been on more-or-less stall rest for the last three weeks without me even thinking about climbing on. Yet, he was a total sweetheart. He didn't miss a single cue and was very responsive to all of my leg cues, picking up right where we left off. We only did walking (and we threw a few serpentines in there), but I couldn't have been happier with him! I just stuck my hands on my hips and didn't even touch the reins! I still can't get over how I finally have a horse that FREEZES when I ask him to - and not even with my voice, but with subtle body movements. Such a good boy!

So, I decided we'd finally try backing. I had plenty of treats that I wanted to use up today (I'm going to make a new batch), so we went for it. I gave him the same verbal cue as I do on the ground, and he started walking forward. I held him back (in the halter), and he couldn't figure out what to do, but he's improving because he'd usually hop when he got frustrated but today he just kept trying. I was holding him back pretty stiffly with the halter and pulling on him, repeating "back up", and sooner than later he took a tiny step back in the middle of moving all over the place. CLICK! He froze - he knew he'd done something but didn't know what yet. He got his treat, and then we tried it again. I said "back up", and held him back, but in slighatly less time, he took a BIG step back - CLICK! Well, he got it that time and before I could even ask him, he started backing at good speed and kept going halfway across the arena (which I didn't click for because I didn't ask him to and he obviously got what I wanted). So, we immediately went to walking, stopping, and backing up on cue. I still need to give him a slight tap on the reins so he knows I'm asking him to go backward instead of forward, but he backs faster than my horse that I won the state 4-H reining competition ever did! All those times I've asked him for speed when backing on the ground definitely paid off!

Oh, and did I mention Flash learned how to back under saddle (well, bareback), and fairly quickly but without any pressure, all in the matter of 5 minutes?


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Oh and also, I have taken the method of firmly marching her butt in and out several times. This would get her out and back in, but never made the fear go away. She still freezes at both doors and requires work to get through it. She has gone through this aisle hundreds of times she was scared at first and we worked through it, months have gone by and now shes terrified of the aisle again. But this time nothing is working her through it, its like each morning she forgets getting used to it yesterday.


This might just be crazy enough to work.... can you turn her loose in the aisle and just give her time in it? feed her in it? Treat it like her stall for a little bit?


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## PunksTank

Jillybean thats why I'm on this thread! That might be crazy enough to work!! Just before she had this terrible relapse I had started teaching her to stand on a floor mat, so I wouldnt have to tie her, so I had her loose in the wide part of the aisle. She was wonderful! Thank you!!
I'll have to rope off my tack room I want her to see in but not go in and try to find a way to rope off the hay so she doesnt just chow down. My only concern is if she tries to turn around she might panick herself if she hits a wall... but I'll just have to see.


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## PunksTank

Wow flash sounds like hes doing amazingly!! Congrats, thats huge. And your so right, we have to be careful what were unintentiknally teaching, which is why I like to film most of my training, for personal review. Way to go and I'm so glad he's feeling better


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Jillybean thats why I'm on this thread! That might be crazy enough to work!! Just before she had this terrible relapse I had started teaching her to stand on a floor mat, so I wouldnt have to tie her, so I had her loose in the wide part of the aisle. She was wonderful! Thank you!!
> I'll have to rope off my tack room I want her to see in but not go in and try to find a way to rope off the hay so she doesnt just chow down. My only concern is if she tries to turn around she might panick herself if she hits a wall... but I'll just have to see.


Hmmm that makes me think.... What if you try a little trick I learned working with kids - instead of addressing the issue head-on, what if you ask her to focus on something else? For instance, when I've had a 4-year-old come off a horse during a lesson, I ask her to tell me how many fingers I'm holding up and insist she's wrong. They spend so much time trying to convince me that I'm wrong and count it over and over again until they completely forget how they just fell off a horse. It's pretty darn funny haha 

You mention you were teaching her to stand on a mat. What if you resumed that - make her focus on the mat instead of the isle. Put the mat right outside her stall and ask her to stand on it. Then move it a little further into the stall, and then a little more. She can't reach out with those feet as much as her nose - she has to move her whole body to get those feet on a matt, and the focus is down on the floor rather than all the other things in the isle.

Get creative - what else can you ask her to do that requires her to be in the aisle? Can you back her through the isle? Can you have her "fetch" something from the aisle? Maybe just let her hang out in the isle and play "mystery target" that click and treat for when she touches them, getting her to enjoy investigating stuff? Haha, now you've got the wheels turning....


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## jillybean19

This might also be something you can do in any area she's uncomfortable with: lunge her in circles and slowly move closer and closer to what they're afraid of. You can't really do that in an aisle, but it seems like that might help her other places. My BO is a Parelli fanatic and explained this "circle game" to me, and while I don't necessarily subscribe to PP, this does make sense. She had a horse that wouldn't go in water, so she got off and lunged the horse near the water. Once the horse was focused on lunging instead of the water, she moved closer and closer to the water as the horse went around her, so eventually the edge of the circle was just touching the water, and then was all the way in the water - and when the horse had all four feet a good way into the water, she stopped her and let her rest. The task for the horse becomes lunging rather than overcoming the fear of water, but in the end it's done both.


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## Saddlebag

Punk, you are recognizing that when she's snorting at something she is not focused on you. Want to know a good way to make a horse snorty and spooky? By looking at what it is snorting at or spooking at.


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## PunksTank

Jillybean- thank you so much those are all great ideas. Your right working with her mat probaby will help a lot! I like the mystery target too  great ideas!!
I've tried the lunging thing with many things for her, like the first time I had to get her in her stall, we spent almost 3 hours lunging, yielding and backing with no results. I don't doubt it works I have used it for many horses, but I find with this horse it just wont work. I think its a mix of two things, if she's nervous lunging her only upsets her and gets her more worked up. If I tried to bring her someplace shes uncomfortable and lunge her at just a walk or trot, she'd most likely bolt. I think she also connects the dots wrongly, she connects being near the door (for instance) with having to work, not connecting that if she goes through it she won't have too anymore.


Saddlebag, yes I'm well aware that shes not paying attention to me, I'm trying to find ways to bring her focus back to me when I loose it, without force because force usually leads to her being more reactive.


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## lovemylilly

This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. when they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

lovemylilly said:


> This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. when they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I realize that there was a lot of detailed posts on the original page, but they explain a lot of these common concerns people have with clicker training. Since it would get repetitive to try and explain it all again, I will keep this short, simple and sweet.

The thing with hoof picks and halters is that they seem to disappear all the time. Does that stop me from using them? No. The clicker and my treat bag are just tack that I use daily. And, since I've been so successful with my horse and have been able to use minimal pressure with huge results, CT has actually _cut down_ on all the tack I have to lug around because I don't even bother with a bridle, saddle, or pad and just go bareback and in a halter. I simply don't need anything else at this point.

As for making your horse work for you - ours do. The click and treat is mainly used when teaching new behaviors. It's to give an affirmative and clear "yes" that the horse understand rather than ten "no's" that takes repetition for the horse to figure out when the release of pressure comes. Personally, I feel that both methods work best when combined with one another. I use pressure and apply the minimum amount to get my point across, then click and treat when my horse figures out what I want. Using multiple methods and clarifying when you're saying "yes" is not only motivating for the horse, but also faster. If you read my last post, my 3-year-old horse that's not even "green broke" really learned how to back in less than 5 minutes because he clearly understood what I was asking, and is now backing across the arena at moderate speed (and, I forgot to mention, his head is DOWN). Moreover, most of what I've done has been done through shaping on the ground without any pressure, so and by doing so I've effectively taught my horse to give his head without ever needing to pull on his face. 

The thing is that the release of pressure just simply isn't as rewarding for a horse nor does it expand the possibilities as much as CT. They're working for you to let them be comfortable and leave them alone. It would be like me poking you in the ribs until you turned the right direction, and it would take quite a few trials of you swatting at my finger, asking me to stop, etc. before you figured out all you have to do is turn. Wouldn't it be much more pleasant if I just applied light pressure, and you knew that you were supposed to figure out something to do in response, and when you turn around I told you "yes!"?

Oh and, once they understand what the new cue and behavior is, the click and treat is phased out. My horse works for me because he knows that's what I expect and, when we're not training, I don't bother too much about the clicker nor treats because I expect him to listen and behave appropriately without it.


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## klkavich

lovemylilly said:


> This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. when they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just a comment: The Natural Horsemanship Training section is not a section to debate the merits or validity of Clicker Training (this thread in particular). Everyone has methods that work for them, and you make some good suggestions, but please remember that this is a CT thread in the Natural Horsemanship Training section so be careful that some comments may come across as such. I would also encourage you to read the entire thread (I know it's lengthy haha) as jillybean19 does a fantastic job of explaining the psychology behind CT and how you do not actually need to click and treat continuously (she addresses your concern in particular). I had similar thinking as you before I started doing CT research (this thread is an excellent resource) and I'd encourage you to explore it further


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## PunksTank

Your not wrong lilly, but you have a different train of thought. The goal in any training method is fora horse to willingly follow your cues. With CT the treats don't last forever, I feel like maybe you haven't read any of the first few pages of this thread? It's explained better than I could about how using treats is a tool, just like any other and has to be used as one. And how the use of treats is euther weaned off or the skills is built up. My horse no longer gets a treat for backing up one step, she needs to back up until I say stop now. Now that she does this I can wean the treats off or just use them because I can. My pony no longer gets treats for touching his ball, now he needs to kick it. He no longer gets treats for touching a cone he has to touch the one I ask. Each skill is built off the last.
Now the reason I dont rely completely on pressure and release is because of a few things really. First being, I dont think horses are such simple beasts, I believe they are intelligent and capable of much more than people give them credit for. I don't believe horses are just obliged to work for us, to obey our every whilm. I DO believe they MUST always have their manners about them, but my opinion is that they weren't put here to blindly serve us, I like to make them want it as much as I do and food encourages this. And lastly pressure did not work for this horse. I have been trained in traditional horsemanship all my life, when I got my first horse I started learning about natural horsemanship. If you read back in the thread you'll see the whole story. But to make it short, your idea of bringing her forward than backwards is what I started with in the beginning when her fears first appeared. But forward never happened, like I mentioned in my last post 3 hours of lunging, backing and yielding her wouldnt make her go into her new stall. It finally took one person holding her in and me whipping her from behind to get her to take that final step and believe me that day will never come again. 
When this horse is afraid of something no amount of pressure outside of serious violence will get her to go toward it. I won't resort to that when I have other options.

I do hope you go back and read the first few pages, then maybe some of your questions wilk be better answered, I don't know psychology as well as Jillybean does.


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## PunksTank

One last thing, the reason i love CT is because it teaches my horse to work toward something, not away from it. For example, if I want to move my horse forward with CT I'll use a target that they work toward, whereas wjth other styles of training I need slme sort of pressure from behind (behind their poll or their butt) to make them move. I like to see my horse work to something, not away from it. But thats just my opinion.


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## jillybean19

klkavich said:


> Just a comment: The Natural Horsemanship Training section is not a section to debate the merits or validity of Clicker Training (this thread in particular). Everyone has methods that work for them, and you make some good suggestions, but please remember that this is a CT thread in the Natural Horsemanship Training section so be careful that some comments may come across as such. I would also encourage you to read the entire thread (I know it's lengthy haha) as jillybean19 does a fantastic job of explaining the psychology behind CT and how you do not actually need to click and treat continuously (she addresses your concern in particular). I had similar thinking as you before I started doing CT research (this thread is an excellent resource) and I'd encourage you to explore it further


Yes, thank you  The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate how and why we use clicker training through the ultimate response: the examples of our own horses. It's a show rather than tell method of answering the questions of those who may be critical or just curious about CT. I know it works for my horse and have been amazed by the results. I took the bait of your post because I felt like it might need to be revisited as I'm sure there are those who didn't sift through all the original posts to find the answers to the questions people commonly have, like yours.

Should you have further questions after reading the first few pages of the thread, feel free to ask  Should you like to debate the merits of CT, feel free to start another thread, but don't be surprised if we stick to demonstrating what we can do with our horses rather than trying to convince you of it.


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## PunksTank

I'm sorry if my one horse who's having troubles right now is making CT look bad as a whole, maybe others could post up videos of their good work? It would be great to see everyones progress with their horses


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Jillybean- thank you so much those are all great ideas. Your right working with her mat probaby will help a lot! I like the mystery target too  great ideas!!
> I've tried the lunging thing with many things for her, like the first time I had to get her in her stall, we spent almost 3 hours lunging, yielding and backing with no results. I don't doubt it works I have used it for many horses, but I find with this horse it just wont work. I think its a mix of two things, if she's nervous lunging her only upsets her and gets her more worked up. If I tried to bring her someplace shes uncomfortable and lunge her at just a walk or trot, she'd most likely bolt. I think she also connects the dots wrongly, she connects being near the door (for instance) with having to work, not connecting that if she goes through it she won't have too anymore.


I figured as much  Snickers was like that, though not with so many fears. I think you get the concept, though, of working on something different and achieving two goals at the same time. Like I said, just get creative. You know her better than anyone else and so I'm sure you'll come up with something  However, I would keep in mind the phrase that "an idle mind is the devil's workshop" - even in a horse. I imagine that she may be working herself up in her head when you're giving her time to relax. Maybe relaxation just isn't relaxing, but rather a time that she is allowed to stop thinking about the task at hand and start thinking about her fears?

I don't know if relaxation is something that can really be taught beyond asking the horse to put their head down. The longer I wait to click with Flash, the more focused he gets on earning the click. In fact, after giving him a "jackpot" and moving out of the arena, he walked up to the fence a few feet behind me, stood, looking expectantly for a minute, then stuck his head down and backed up about 15 feet just because he wanted to DO something! His mind is always at work.


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> I'm sorry if my one horse who's having troubles right now is making CT look bad as a whole, maybe others could post up videos of their good work? It would be great to see everyones progress with their horses


No! You've come such a long way and are a representative of a very important population that clicker training works wonders with! In fact, I may be signing up to foster a horse when I move this fall, so I'm excited to see what challenges I can tackle with my cool little tool  We'd all be missing out if you didn't post here.


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## Blossom in Srping

Hello everyone.
I just registered due to this thread. I have read the whole thing. I clicker train my dogs and have been thinking about it for my horse. After reading this thread, you have given me the encouragement to go ahead and do it. 

I have a couple of issues with myself and my horse, but one of the main things right now I want to work on is leading her from her stall or pasture to the arena. Its all grass, and yes, she will stop and eat. She is so hard to get her head up and moving and then she just drops that head again. I am soaked from the work out and ready to quit by the time I get her to the arena. 

As long as it does not rain today, I plan to go over and attempt to ct her to pass that grass up. That will be my only goal for now. 

Must go to the store and get some cheerios first. 
She is a 7yr old haflinger. 

I will let you know how things go. Love this thread. Maybe I can get someone else to go with me to record how we do.


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## PunksTank

Thats a very good point, everytime I stopped at something scary I was probabky just guving her time to be sure it was terrifying. Gah x.x ok definitely gonna work on keeping her looking for the next step. 
Thanks


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## jillybean19

Blossom in Srping said:


> Hello everyone.
> I just registered due to this thread. I have read the whole thing. I clicker train my dogs and have been thinking about it for my horse. After reading this thread, you have given me the encouragement to go ahead and do it.
> 
> I have a couple of issues with myself and my horse, but one of the main things right now I want to work on is leading her from her stall or pasture to the arena. Its all grass, and yes, she will stop and eat. She is so hard to get her head up and moving and then she just drops that head again. I am soaked from the work out and ready to quit by the time I get her to the arena.
> 
> As long as it does not rain today, I plan to go over and attempt to ct her to pass that grass up. That will be my only goal for now.
> 
> Must go to the store and get some cheerios first.
> She is a 7yr old haflinger.
> 
> I will let you know how things go. Love this thread. Maybe I can get someone else to go with me to record how we do.


Welcome to the thread  And congrats - you're in for a lot of fun!

Don't try tackling the issue right from the start because you'll set yourself up for failure. First, get your horse excited and solid on the whole concept of clicker training without ANY distractions. This is the key to successful training down the road. Just an FYI - it took 2-3 days of just doing "targeting" in a stall with no distractions before the CT was strong enough to move on. And that's considered FAST, especially since my horse was brand new to everything in his life, so he caught on to CT and now believes that's just how the world works.

Once you have your horse effectively targeting, start leading with a target. My issue was that my colt would get SO excited about following me places, he'd hug right behind me and actually buck just inches from me (I couldn't see it, but I heard it!). I used a target to show him where to walk and focus on that. First do it in a round pen, then somewhere bigger like an arena, but still minimize the distractions. I even went so far as liberty leading at a walk, trot, and lope. These were all fun games that he loved doing and further reinforced the idea of CT in his mind.

Once I knew he was focused on me at all times and willing to do whatever it took to follow that target, I could introduce distractions. In your case. I would try it with just a flake of hay in the arena. You may have to go back to just letting your horse choose the target over the hay before you're able to lead around the arena and eventually past the hay. Once you're sure your horse will pay attention to you even when a distraction like hay is present, you're ready to go for the walk across the grass. If you've built her foundation solidly, she should learn quickly that she'll be much better off paying attention to you rather than the grass.

Finally, since this is obviously a food-motivated horse, be wise in your selection and presentation of the food. Not only do you not want her to get mouthy, but, in your case, you want to also make sure that whatever you use is more pleasing to her than the grass. This means using something she likes better as well as making sure you "jackpot" her when she finally does chose you over the grass, then continue to do so as she chooses to continue to giving you the proper attention for extended time.

Good luck, and keep us updated!


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## jillybean19

One more thing for Blossom - don't expect a lot today. Some horses pick it up right away, and others don't. Make sure you only try for about 5 minutes, and then leave off on something good. Go do some chores and come back. My horse was so eager that I forgot to do that, but Punks reminded me about keeping things short, simple and sweet, and it's made a world of difference in our CT. Give your horse time to think about this amazing new concept he just discovered. If you want to take a video camera, go for it - but even I didn't have anything really worth sharing on day one. But trust me, once they get it, some horses are just on fire for CT afterward!


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## lovemylilly

whew!! that was alot of reading  but well worth it. I am in the know now  I am going to look into it more and maybe incorporate it with my training. Thank you for explaining and opening my eyes to something new 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

So excited for more horse CT users! 
I usually start even a step further back than Jilly does. I've found most horses will revert to the first skill theyve ever learned when they arent sure what to do. My pony backs uo when hes confused. Thats fine but can be annoying. This is why now the fjrst skill I teach horses is to stand calmly ajd face away from me. This reinforces that food will not be delivered when theyre invading my space. It also tries to encourage horses to stop when theyre unsure, not fidget like my pony. Then I move on to targetting when tbats solid


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> So excited for more horse CT users!
> I usually start even a step further back than Jilly does. I've found most horses will revert to the first skill theyve ever learned when they arent sure what to do. My pony backs uo when hes confused. Thats fine but can be annoying. This is why now the fjrst skill I teach horses is to stand calmly ajd face away from me. This reinforces that food will not be delivered when theyre invading my space. It also tries to encourage horses to stop when theyre unsure, not fidget like my pony. Then I move on to targetting when tbats solid


I start with targeting first because it's something solid and concrete to get the concept. I don't know that that's necessarily better for everyone, but I wanted some solid results so It worked for me. Soon afterward, I moved to standing and I use the target to help teach where I want his face. We spent so much time working on that and it was so early on that it became his default. Regardless, standing, backing, targeting, and especially waiting politely for a treat without mugging are the foundation to a solid CT horse and should be taught first.


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## PunksTank

So I had a wonderful CT day yesterday! All the kids were at the rescue working with their favorite ponies! It was really sweet. I got some videos too 
This is Coco and her favorite girl, this pony came to our rescue completely feral. She had lived the first 16 years of her life loose in a pasture, bred a few times but never touched. It took 6 men 4 hours to herd her into a trailer to get her to our rescue. When we got her we had to leave a short rope hanging from her halter and we would back up to her slowly and not make eye contact and catch her. She lead only because she was too terrified to do otherwise. Touching her was out of the question. That's when this little volunteer decided to make her her own. She sat outside her stall for weeks, touching her nose and just enjoying her company, inside her paddock too. And soon the little pony started following her. That's when they started Clicker Training, helping Coco overcome her fears and having SO much fun together! They're working on their unmounted agility, but we didn't have the jumps out yesterday because its been so rainy.







I even started working on a new project myself  We have a 3 year old colt at our rescue, we got him at 6 months as a seriously aggressive stud colt. After he had a little operation he settled down a great deal. Then, due to inter-human politics his training came to a stand still. Unfortunately he was left generally unhandled aside from being turned out and brought in. Now I've sorted out most of the politics and his training can resume, unfortunately he's had 2 years of ingraining some seriously terrible habits. 
I had some questions with his work though, this is a video of our first real CT session. He figured out immediately that turning away earned him his treat, but I found myself backing out of his space a lot, he really pushes me into corners (his stall is much smaller than mine at home so I feel tight anyway). Can/should I push him back out of my space when he starts getting invasive? He is still turning his head away, but is way too close to me. He also turns his ears back, I've never seen this before? They're not pinned but I don't really understand why he's doing that? Usually horses have their eyes and ears on me while training. He's a very pushy, rude, nippy colt with no respect at this point. Is there anything outside of the norm that I could work on with CT to help reinforce his manners?





And lastly, this is Pretty in Pink and her favorite person, these two have been buddies for a long time but Pink has an awful lot of issues to work through. Pink came to us from a summer camp program, she was never actually used as a camp horse, she kicked her hind foot through a wall in the night and got hung up for several hours before anyone found her. She wasn't going to be sound before camp season was over so they opted to put her down. So we offered to take her, a few months of rest and good food and she was almost good as new. But we learned a bit more about her. It turns out she was a Spanish dancing horse (I won't get into the cruelty involved in this, you can look it up - it's not the same as just the gaited horse shows). But she suffers from some terrible anxiety attacks, this is the best we can decipher from how she acts. She'll kind of go numb, her eyes will soften like she's asleep, her leg muscles will start twitching and she'll sort of jog in place, sometimes bouncing just her hind legs, and then she'll let out one violent kick straight back or lunge out and bite the wall. She only does this alone in her stall or paddock, she's always alert and kind with humans, but wants nothing to do with other horses. It's almost like they don't understand her, they all avoid her and she avoids them. She's lost most of her teeth through this, so we don't know how old she is, we've seriously reinforced her stall to prevent injury when she has her episodes. 
The young girl working with her has been working on keeping her calm and quiet, Pink was raised to believe if she's in hand or under saddle she needs to be doing her trot/gait/dance the entire time. She doesn't understand she can just walk and stop calmly. So this is why we've started CT, we want to show her that people can be wonderful and that she doesn't need to be worked up all the time.
This session with Pink was the best yet, she was calm the entire time - usually she gets frantic turning her head and touching and turning again and again - but she's very settled this time. I'm so proud of how far she's come. I think it'll be time soon to move her on to targetting and teaching her to stand still out in her paddock. 







And finally, my phone was dead at this point, but when I got home I decided to do some targeting loose in the aisle with Tank. She did exceptionally well! I'm SO proud of her, she was still nervous in the narrow aisle but in the wide aisle she settled right down and ventured all around. This morning when leading her out she made it through the wide part of the aisle very easily but still pretty tense in the narrow part. 
I also discovered something - 4 weeks ago I ran out of Brewer's Yeast and decided not to get more. I wonder if this was the change that triggered her spookiness? Does anyone know if that could be it? I'm going to be ordering her another calming supplement soon and hopefully that will help too.


Sorry for my massively long post I just thought I'd share some fun CT stuff


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> I even started working on a new project myself  We have a 3 year old colt at our rescue, we got him at 6 months as a seriously aggressive stud colt. After he had a little operation he settled down a great deal. Then, due to inter-human politics his training came to a stand still. Unfortunately he was left generally unhandled aside from being turned out and brought in. Now I've sorted out most of the politics and his training can resume, unfortunately he's had 2 years of ingraining some seriously terrible habits.
> I had some questions with his work though, this is a video of our first real CT session. He figured out immediately that turning away earned him his treat, but I found myself backing out of his space a lot, he really pushes me into corners (his stall is much smaller than mine at home so I feel tight anyway). Can/should I push him back out of my space when he starts getting invasive? He is still turning his head away, but is way too close to me. He also turns his ears back, I've never seen this before? They're not pinned but I don't really understand why he's doing that? Usually horses have their eyes and ears on me while training. He's a very pushy, rude, nippy colt with no respect at this point. Is there anything outside of the norm that I could work on with CT to help reinforce his manners?


It says the video is private  However, from what you said, I have two ideas. First about the space. Just as with any other training, it is NEVER ok for him to invade your space. This is where I resort to "traditional" methods. I shouldn't have to reward a horse for respecting my space, ever. It's a given due to safety and I never want him to think that being in my space is ever an option (like turning the rump). Thus, I think, depending on the horse, this is where either making yourself big (waving your arms) or even a good smack on the offending area (whichever is closest to you) is in line, even with CT. And I wouldn't click nor treat unless he's at a respectable distance.

Second, about the ears. If he's like my boy, the ears tick back each time he ears a click. It was very interesting and a reason why I gave up on the "ears forward" training suggestion. EVERY time I clicked the clicker, his ears flicked around. I'm not sure if it's something to do with the way it echoes or what, but I just don't worry about it. I haven't noticed him do it lately, but I'm not sure. If your boy's ears are always back and you decide this is a problem for whatever reason, you could try just clicking for ears forward  Or you could just do it even if it's not a problem haha. It's another game!


And awesome job with Tank! It's so cool to see how far all your ponies are coming and all your little CT prodigies.


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## PunksTank

Thanks so much, that's what I ended up doing, he got a little nippy so I gave him a whack on the nose. But sometimes when he invaded my space I moved out and sometimes I pushed him back, I just couldn't decide - but from now on he'll be doing the moving. I've kind of learned all the rules for traditional training but I'm still so foggy on what is and isn't OK with CT 

Sorry I must have hit private by accident can you try the video again I think I fixed it?


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## jillybean19

It works now! Ok so.... I'm making notes while watching it. Let me first say that I think you're doing a great job. I say that because you asked for suggestions so I don't want this to sound like I'm criticizing you. But here are my thoughts on what might help....

First, I would adjust how you're treating him, especially since he has space issues. A good rule of thumb is to treat wherever you want his head to be. Flash never comes to me to be treated - he freezes wherever he is and waits for me to present the treat exactly where I want him to take it (which, for me, is with his head aligned and tucked/on the vertical since that's where I want him to hold it always). It requires a little extra walking on my part sometimes, but unless we're riding, he's not allowed to come to me for a treat. Rather, he should freeze (established during the "stand" game). Even when we're riding, he doesn't reach for the treat until I tap his shoulder on the side for the treat, but I think he's just learned that he might as well wait while I get the treat out and decide where he's going to get it haha.

Which brings me to the second thing - you're always behind him (which is why his ears are back). I would position myself directly to the side of his head or even a little ahead of him. This establishes "your space" in a basic sense, and he's not allowed to come to you. You can easily control his body from here and ask him to back up if you need to (which I would recommend training him to do ASAP to get him to step out your pace with more polite means). Having his body angled toward you automatically puts you at a disadvantage for him to be in your space since his head will naturally extend from that body and into your bubble.

I would also wait longer to click and decide exactly where you want his head, then be consistent. I think he's just moving back and forth naturally sometimes (getting comfortable, and knowing that a click means having a treat, but not really connecting it with why you clicked). For instance, you might have noticed that, even without a click, he turns away and then immediately back to you for a treat at about 2 minutes. Maybe ask him to hold it longer? I think where you position yourself will also help with this.

Never forget that the one who moves their feet is the one that's being dominated and pushed around. As for what's "appropriate" with clicker training, I still behave the same way I do as with any other horse that might not be clicker trained. The clicker is simply a "yes" signal when the horse responds to you how you expect them to. For example, even now when we're backing up, if Flash doesn't back up or doesn't do it fast enough, I start walking toward him fairly aggressively. He knows now that if he lets me catch up to his shoulder, he's gonna get a good poke/smack on the chest. He knows what he's supposed to do and it's his own darn fault if he doesn't respond quick enough. Yet, I still click and treat once he does what I was asking for to say "Yes, now you get it!" So, in your case, when you ask him to get out of your space and he does, I'd even click and treat. Maybe you should even make a game out of that - "When I raise my hands and move toward your head/shoulder, you move that part of your body out of my space!" You could even work work in zones, focusing on the horse moving his head, rump, or whole body over based on where you put the pressure.

Flash and I have the opposite problem. We need to work on a clear "come here" or "follow me" signal at liberty because he usually just freezes thinking he's supposed to stand or often starts backing up lol. It's never a problem with the lead rope because it clearly communicates what I want, but he knows better than to just follow me everywhere because we've really done a good job on the stand game - I can walk around the entire arena and he won't budge!


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## Saddlebag

A stall isn't a safe place for the handlers. If you have a pen or paddock use that. Take the spooky mare out there and remove her halter. Let her run around but don't encourage it by standing to one side. it's hard to get a horse to focus when it's energy level is high. As she settles down, with very low energy, ask her to move. The walk is desirable. If she stops and looks at you, back up a few steps and be sure your whip is low and behind you. If she doesn't take a step toward you, ask her to move again. Do this again and again until she comes to you. Just rub her forehead. Food will motivate her to keep coming to you rather than moving when you ask. You are teaching her that she doesn't have a say when you ask her to move. Step back a few steps and turn your back to her. This removes all the pressure. Give her a break for a minute then start moving her again. I don't ask for the canter as it seems to motivate them to kick out so just walk and trot with lots of direction changes. You want to motivate her to really want to be with you rather than working. She will learn that she is done when you put the halter on her. Take her into the barn and right back out in soldier attitude then put her away. And turn her away from you, always for the next month. There's an expression, you move you lose. Think about this when asking her to turn. To the left, she is moving you which means she's dominating you. To the right, you are moving her and asserting your dominance. You are becoming her apha or leader.


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## jillybean19

Saddlebag said:


> A stall isn't a safe place for the handlers. If you have a pen or paddock use that. Take the spooky mare out there and remove her halter. Let her run around but don't encourage it by standing to one side. it's hard to get a horse to focus when it's energy level is high. As she settles down, with very low energy, ask her to move. The walk is desirable. If she stops and looks at you, back up a few steps and be sure your whip is low and behind you. If she doesn't take a step toward you, ask her to move again. Do this again and again until she comes to you. Just rub her forehead. Food will motivate her to keep coming to you rather than moving when you ask. You are teaching her that she doesn't have a say when you ask her to move. Step back a few steps and turn your back to her. This removes all the pressure. Give her a break for a minute then start moving her again. I don't ask for the canter as it seems to motivate them to kick out so just walk and trot with lots of direction changes. You want to motivate her to really want to be with you rather than working. She will learn that she is done when you put the halter on her. Take her into the barn and right back out in soldier attitude then put her away. And turn her away from you, always for the next month. There's an expression, you move you lose. Think about this when asking her to turn. To the left, she is moving you which means she's dominating you. To the right, you are moving her and asserting your dominance. You are becoming her apha or leader.


Saddlebag, just out of curiosity, how much of this thread have you actually read? I ask that because Punks is dealing with some very specific issues with a rescue horse and she's made a lot of progress as well as had a lot of setbacks. This has been a long journey with a horse that has experienced a lot of trauma, and requires special adaptations. A lot of things that may work in general may not work with rescue horses, and this horse in particular is a peculiar one at times.

In addition, while I'm not saying your suggestions are incorrect or bad in any way, this thread is specifically about using clicker training and you don't seem to be making suggestions related to clicker training. If you are a into clicker training, could you be a little clearer about how you would implement this method? If your suggestions aren't clicker-training related, you may want to at least incorporate the method into your suggestions. Otherwise, a private message may be the most appropriate as posts unrelated to clicker training don't fit with this thread.


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## PunksTank

Thank you SO much Jillybean, all those things are so right, I will focus on those!
I'll work on staying at his side (should I move to stay standing at his shoulder? he backs up and tries to face me when I do that). I'll also be sure to maintain our space from now on, to be honest I didn't even feel like he was pushing me around until I watched the video and saw how much he really got me to move, thats why I love taking videos. He knows back up, but I LOVE your idea of using CT to get him yielding his body, he's so disrespectful just in general. Being and adorable little foal he's been allowed to really invade space and hurt people. He has a terrible conformational issue that makes his front teeth completely misaligned, so when he bites you, his teeth don't come together and it doesn't hurt much - so he's even been allowed to bite!! I'm so appalled. So he's got a few serious lessons to learn, but I don't want every minute with me to be constant punishment. Besides punishment is really just a challenge for him and to make any sort of impact you have to get pretty extreme. So I'm very happy to have an idea of how to help he behave better without so much constant punishment. 

Saddlebag, yes I understand what you're saying - while I don't opt for that particular method in general, my horse is well trained. In her paddock she will follow me anywhere, lead or no lead, she will turn toward or away from me, she'll stop, back up and yield every inch of her body. The problem isn't until she is afraid, it's as if when she's afraid she forgets everything she's learned.
So my goal with Tank is to find a way to keep her attention on me and on our goal without using force, as force only leads to someone getting hurt in this horse's particular case. 
If you have any ideas with Clicker Training I'd love to hear them, but so far working on targeting at liberty around the barn has really been successful, it's just taking time.


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Thank you SO much Jillybean, all those things are so right, I will focus on those!
> I'll work on staying at his side (should I move to stay standing at his shoulder? he backs up and tries to face me when I do that). I'll also be sure to maintain our space from now on, to be honest I didn't even feel like he was pushing me around until I watched the video and saw how much he really got me to move, thats why I love taking videos. He knows back up, but I LOVE your idea of using CT to get him yielding his body, he's so disrespectful just in general. Being and adorable little foal he's been allowed to really invade space and hurt people. He has a terrible conformational issue that makes his front teeth completely misaligned, so when he bites you, his teeth don't come together and it doesn't hurt much - so he's even been allowed to bite!! I'm so appalled. So he's got a few serious lessons to learn, but I don't want every minute with me to be constant punishment. Besides punishment is really just a challenge for him and to make any sort of impact you have to get pretty extreme. So I'm very happy to have an idea of how to help he behave better without so much constant punishment.


If you're moving your feet when you didn't plan to, you've already lost. So I'm thinking you'll need to find a way to stay put and move _him_. Maybe you could have a halter on him so you can shake him back and reposition him, so even of you do move your feet, you're moving him as well? If he comes toward you one step, make him back up/move away from you two. Whether you do that by pushing him with the halter or you get him yielding to you with your hands, you're still the on driving him away and telling him to put his body where YOU say, just like a lead mare.

In particular, it sounds like he needs to learn to stand off to your side. I see a few ways to do this. First, you can help him by using the lead rope to hold him exactly where you want him, then click and treat. Then try releasing the pressure, but keeping your hand there and arm extended to block him from coming into your space, and if he keeps his head where you want it, then click and treat. Once he's got that, start pulling your hand back and C+R if he keeps his head where it's supposed to be. Eventually, you should be able to work up to having him at-liberty and keeping his head out of your space as well as letting you stand to the side.

Other ways you could achieve the same goal is by positioning him with a target or by doing the "stand" game. It seems like you might just want to jump to one of these to make him do more with his entire body for the treat. It's the same lesson I learned by focusing on my boy's head and speed during movement, but neglecting the hind end and so I was reinforcing disengagement of his hindquarters. Which makes me think, maybe you're accidentally reinforcing him always facing you?


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## PunksTank

I figured I'd post some fun pics from today's clicker work with Tank and my Belgian Revel 

I finally got a saddle that would fit Tank's wideload  This is her first time lunging in one (she's had them on her back before plenty, but none ever fit!)



















She did so exceptionally well I figured I could hop on and do a couple minutes walking around. Pardon my rein in this one, there was a corner she was trying to avoid, but I posted this one so you can see why it took so long for me to find a saddle for her xD can you say W-I-D-E?










I love this one, she looks mythical 











Me and Revel went and enjoyed a good long trail ride too  he rocks!













I would love to see everyone else and their horses too  Please post videos or pics - I love to watch the progress, and seeing how others do it might help me get the gist of it better too.


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## jillybean19

Oh, and he doesn't get his treat unless he holds still. It'll take some self-control training for him to understand that (which sounds like it could do him a lot of good!), so you may want to start with more forced self-control (by using a halter). Once he's got that, you can move on to other activities and enforce holding still since he already knows how to do it, and now you're just teaching him when. That's what I meant by when he takes one step toward you (after a click), make him back up two and he has to behave and be polite. If he's solid enough with the clicker, he should be able to understand that he must behave at all times - even after he hears the click - and that he can lose his treat by misbehaving after the click (it's not an invitation for a free treat!).


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> If you're moving your feet when you didn't plan to, you've already lost. So I'm thinking you'll need to find a way to stay put and move _him_. Maybe you could have a halter on him so you can shake him back and reposition him, so even of you do move your feet, you're moving him as well? If he comes toward you one step, make him back up/move away from you two. Whether you do that by pushing him with the halter or you get him yielding to you with your hands, you're still the on driving him away and telling him to put his body where YOU say, just like a lead mare.
> 
> In particular, it sounds like he needs to learn to stand off to your side. I see a few ways to do this. First, you can help him by using the lead rope to hold him exactly where you want him, then click and treat. Then try releasing the pressure, but keeping your hand there and arm extended to block him from coming into your space, and if he keeps his head where you want it, then click and treat. Once he's got that, start pulling your hand back and C+R if he keeps his head where it's supposed to be. Eventually, you should be able to work up to having him at-liberty and keeping his head out of your space as well as letting you stand to the side.
> 
> Other ways you could achieve the same goal is by positioning him with a target or by doing the "stand" game. It seems like you might just want to jump to one of these to make him do more with his entire body for the treat. It's the same lesson I learned by focusing on my boy's head and speed during movement, but neglecting the hind end and so I was reinforcing disengagement of his hindquarters. Which makes me think, maybe you're accidentally reinforcing him always facing you?



You're probably right, I think I'm going to go right to targeting and see if I can't get him to keep his body where it belongs with the target - and yes I really need to focus more on keeping myself _still_ and only moving him. If I'm not successful with the target I'll try the halter. Thank you


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## jillybean19

I love the pictures! She's so pretty  It's hard to imagine such a big, beautiful girl would be so timid!


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## Foxtail Ranch

Punks, thank you for the videos to watch its fun to see the girl and the pony! They are very cute together. 

I notice the horse you were working with was turning to you to get his reward. This is allowing him into your space and rewarding that behavior. You will bring the treat to him and he eats it where you want his head. If he turns toward you, no treat. 

One thing I read from Kurland is to feed the treat where you want the head to be. Your arm unfolds firm and straight to the ideal spot, not dropping down as they eat either. She talks about being influenced by Tai Chi as she figured out how to offer the reward in a position/stance of power. You are standing balanced and controlled so that if the horse moves you are not moved because you are balanced in your core. Think about that as you find your position in his stall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Punks, thank you for the videos to watch its fun to see the girl and the pony! They are very cute together.
> 
> I notice the horse you were working with was turning to you to get his reward. This is allowing him into your space and rewarding that behavior. You will bring the treat to him and he eats it where you want his head. If he turns toward you, no treat.
> 
> One thing I read from Kurland is to feed the treat where you want the head to be. Your arm unfolds firm and straight to the ideal spot, not dropping down as they eat either. She talks about being influenced by Tai Chi as she figured out how to offer the reward in a position/stance of power. You are standing balanced and controlled so that if the horse moves you are not moved because you are balanced in your core. Think about that as you find your position in his stall.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see we've read the same books haha


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## PunksTank

Thanks very much both of you I will definitely focus more on space next time, I work with him again on tuesdays and thursdays- no one else will be doing anything other than turn out with hin.

Do you have any good CT book suggestions?


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Thanks very much both of you I will definitely focus more on space next time, I work with him again on tuesdays and thursdays- no one else will be doing anything other than turn out with hin.
> 
> Do you have any good CT book suggestions?


The Click that Teachers by Alexandria Kurland  I have a link to it in my very first post on here. That's the only one I've read and it was sufficient for me


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## Blossom in Srping

Well I have nothing to report yet. Too hot out there for this old lady, but I did find out that my horse loves cheerios!


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## jaydee

I must say that I don't worry too much about mine looking at me in the hope of getting a treat but I draw the line at 'mugging'
Honey is never allowed to have a treat unless she's got her head away from us as she had a terrible attitude when we got her and would flatten you - never tried to nip. A lot of people would never give a horse like her rewards but for me it was more of a result to train her not to be pushy than go with the avoidance thing
One really funny thing when my husband was away and called me on my cell when I was in the barn brushing Jazzie - he spoke to her and she was looking really curious at this little 'box' to see where his voice was coming from then he 'clicked' and told her to back and she did it immediately!!!


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## PunksTank

That's so cute Jaydee ^^ I also find it easier to train horses who are likely to mug people using treats to teach them how to accept a treat, rather than just avoiding the issue all together.

Today went great for all my horses!! Tank had 2 days inside due to thunderstorms and me working too much, so I was very concerned that she would be terrible to get out today. She was actually fantastic! She's still nervous and tense in and out of her stall, but I brought my target and kept her focused and moving without giving her time to analyze anything that made her nervous - but I did put the target on some things that made her nervous, but only if it was in our path and we could achieve it quickly. She walked right out without freezing up, but still clearly nervous. She was so good I brought her to a different paddock that's further away and she handled this situation exceptionally well. Coming back in though she got very scared of the garage windows with her reflection in them, she bolted sideways, but stopped when she reached the end of the leadline and then found the target. Then we worked on the target until she was touching the window, she didn't bat an eye at the second window we past. She's coming along! The only diet change so far has been reintroducing Brewer's Yeast, but when it arrives I'm going to start her on MagRestore to see if that at least allows her to be unafraid in her stall.

I worked with Viking today too (my 3 year old from the last video) He was exceptional! I worked with him outside today, I had him on lead because he's very dangerous off lead, won't hesitate to kick or strike. I started by standing next to him and C+T when his head was straight ahead. He exaggerated it a bit and turned a bit further away, but this time he didn't turn back to me when I clicked, he learned to wait with his head straight and the treat would come to him there. Then I just started taking a step or two, wanting him to keep himself in the same position next to me. He caught on FAST. I would walk, then stop, if he went to far he'd back up or circle around me to get back in position. 
I then went to his other side and spent a few minutes teaching all the same things, but his attention span was coming to a close so I ended it on a good note. Later that day though when I went through his paddock he did throw a hissy fit about having to back out of my space and actually reared, no striking this time, but he got in a good bit of trouble for that. Off lead he's seriously dangerous, I guess I'll stick to on-lead until his manners improve.

So things are looking up, someone got a video of me with Viking, but hasn't sent it to me yet. I'm still having trouble with making him stay calm when I make him wait a bit for the treat, if I try to make him stand straight and face ahead for more than a few seconds he'll start touching me, turning to face me, backing up, just fidgetting, I'm not sure how to stretch out the cue making him stand longer.


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## jaydee

I guess you're getting similar weather to us in CT, its been awful for seems like ages now and it really can hype some horses up - Honey is like an advanced weather warning when a storms miles away but she settles in her stall really well compared to how she used to be. Looby is the total opposite and was standing totally unconcerned with her head over the door while lightning was flashing and thunder so loud it made the house shake!!!
Honeys big change in anxiety seemed to come after 2 courses of antibiotics for Lymes and treatment for ulcers. She'll always be very reliant on either a person she trusts or a horse she sees as her leader for confidence - even though she's the bossy ***** in the field!!!
I am a real skeptic about things but the difference in focus you get from them with the clicker work is really amazing so we keep plugging away at it - even husband is a convert now and I'm getting one of my UK friends into it as she's bought a young horse that's got some spooky nervous issues and has trouble concentrating.


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## PunksTank

Yup, I think our weathers similar, it's just obnoxious. It could be making her anxious, I don't know. She's been tested for Lyme and is negative, but I don't know about ulcers - I've been working her much more than usual and she's been much more stressed, but she's so itchy with her allergies that she's not sensitive to touch. That's why I'm trying to the magnesium supplement.

I really do love CT, it helps horses so much, I'd love to hear about what you do with your horses with CT, do you have any videos?


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## jaydee

I don't have any videos of CT stuff - I really should make an effort and do some now I'm getting into it more. It would have been great to have one of Looby when the vet did her shots and dental this time - he was pretty amazed by how she reacted
The magnesium will help ulcers as it has an antacid effect too, I've just started Flo on U-Gard pellets as an extra to the Quiessence because she seems to be prone to ulcers from having the pain meds for her arthritis, I can always tell with her as she gets really irritable and doesn't want to be brushed or touched around her belly.
My lot hate the bugs - they don't really want to go out and if you don't shut the gate quick they'd be back in before you turned round.


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## PunksTank

Jaydee, I'd love to see some of your work with your horses  But I completely get it I can barely keep my eyes open with all the bugs. 

That's why I picked a magnesium supplement, it'll help whether this is ulcers or if it's an imbalance. 
I'm feeling pretty silly right now though. I think I've finally figured out why she's been so afraid of that back door. She's been afraid of it last summer too, but last summer she only had to pass it if I tried to have her leave her paddock out into the yard - which she was terrified of. Over the winter she overcame all of those issues, now come summer again she's terrified of the back door again! Only this time she has to leave it by walking through the barn and out the door - so I didn't connect the dots. I live upstairs of the barn and int he summer we have an Air Conditioner in the window!!!! AHH! I feel so dumb! When it's on she's terrified, when it's off she walks out like it's no big deal. But when it was on several days in a row her fear of going out the door exaggerated to the point of not wanting to leave her stall. So the past few times I've experimented with it off and she's walked out mostly fine. She's still a bit tense but she was relaxed enough to walk out without anything big. 
It's interesting because it's everything with that type of sound that she's scared of, the low humming of a fan or air conditioner. The odd thing though is that she doesn't get used to it. She still jumps everytime I turn her fan on, she sees my hand reach for the switch and rushes to the other side of the stall all bug eyed. But after a couple minutes on she settles and eats her hay - but then she's really jumpy, when I walk by her stall - probably because she can't hear as well. Each time I do it she reacts the same, she hasn't learned that it's alright. 
Any ideas on how to get her more comfortable with the fan sounds? I was thinking of letting her graze out by the air conditioner with it on.


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## jaydee

We're gradually putting ceiling fans in our barn - well that's a bit of a laugh as so far we only have 1 - but its so much quieter and they don't seem to notice it. That leaves me with the 2 old free standing ones that make a noise like a jet engine taking off and they all used to jump when I switched them on but now don't seem to notice at all so I think they just get used to them. I had the same trouble with them walking past the one by the door when it was on but last night I forgot to switch if off and they all marched past with no concerns - so again I think its all just down to them getting used to it
I do play a radio and at present audio books in the barn when I'm working in there and I think having noise like that helps them too. The more you can expose them to things the less they worry
I am covered in bites and could scratch my skin off so I know how they must feel, they aren't stupid are they. I am having to drag or push them out now and we have plenty of nice grass, Jazzy and Willow will find all sorts of interesting stuff to check out to delay the process
Yesterday Flo got bitten just above her eye as she's managed to get her mask off and then must have rubbed at it on something as it itched and made it all so sore her whole eye was swollen like she'd been punched in it completely closed shut, I threw all the first aid stuff at it I could find and its looking a whole lot better today
This is a link to Willow getting washed - this is a horse that hated even being sponged over & used to freak out at the sight of a hosepipe and panic if it touched her legs and coming here where they sweat so much it had to be addressed but she's so strong that making a confrontational battle out of it was never going to work so from last year onwards we've used a lot of patience, some CT and rewards for good behaviour and this is how she is now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUgh_akVcu0


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## PunksTank

Wow Jaydee, that was so cute!! :3 I've only known one horse to respond like that with hosing. I love seeing 360 turn arounds like that  Good work!
Ceiling fans are smart, but unfortunately we rent and can't change stuff. I hope she does just get used to it, I'll just keep waiting 
She's actually typically pretty bomb proof when it comes to sounds and noises, we lived next to a construction company the first year. Now that I've moved her home she gets to listen to my music whenever so I'm int he barn - pretty much all metal music ^^' she doesn't seem to mind it at all, no reaction when it's turned on or off. Even songs with thunder storms don't bother her. Now the empty lot across the street is being turned into a fire station, next to the police station across the street xD So she's pretty used to most noises. But this stupid fan sounds just scares her. 

Thank you all so much for your help!


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## PunksTank

So I gotta post this up  This is a photo of Tank standing calmly 'tied' (the rope was just run through the loop, not tied) in the spot that started this all - _with_ - metal music, all the fans and the air conditioner on!! She did such a great job  
I can now easily walk her in and out without the A.C. on, when it is on she's still very tense but no more freezing up and bolting backwards.


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## Saddlebag

Punk, with clicker training I rewarded my very spooky horse each time he kept his feet glued to the ground. I started with the dreaded plastic bag tied to the lunge whip and rattled it way behind me, doing this 3 or 4 times. Then we walked around with it out in front then a little side to side. I worked it until I could move it up and down on each side continually CT and stopped there. The next day I began again and even waving it high over his back he wouldn't move. I had to laugh as the look on his face was "I'm doing what you want, where's my treat". After that I could flap a small tarp high over his back, underneath, you name it. Once he was over that fear, the others seem to fade. Now if he's a bit nervous I cluck a couple of times and he relaxes.


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## PunksTank

Thanks saddlebag, I've done that with a great number of things, from bug spray to saddle pads, but nothing exceptionally scary like a tarp. To be honest shes never really been afraid of "things" more sounds or places. And one of our biggest issues is that when shes afraid she freezes and if you push her shell bolt. So I need her to stop, then carry on, not just stay frozen.
Ill try some better despooking things like that too, thanks


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## jillybean19

Update!

Over the weekend I had an honest talk with a good non CT friend of mine who has much more experience in general with horses than I. She's got a filly she's bringing along that's the same age as Flash, so I asked her what they're working on. Some things that came up were lateral flexion and sidepassing, so we'll be adding those into our repertoire and solidifying the things we've already been doing. I'm now regularly taking him out for trail rides and he's been fantastic - WITHOUT the clicker! I do have it with me just in case something happens or there's something spooky along the trail, but I really haven't needed it.

Another thing that came up was safety in a halter. I mostly neck/leg rein with Flash now, and only direct rein on technical parts of the trail. While I'd introduced him to a bit and he takes it fine, I'd never actually riddin him in a bit so he's not used to pressure on his mouth or carrying it quietly. My friend made a very good case for why I should start riding him in a bit, pointing out that while riding in a halter (or tackless like we've been doing!) is cool and has a touch of romanticism to it, it is a matter of safety to have a bit - especially on a trail - just like wearing my helmet (which I refuse to leave behind now). So, our first task this week was to begin using the bit regularly.

Yesterday was a complete success. I put the bit (double-jointed snaffle with copper bean in the middle) in and clicked/treated whenever he kept his mouth closed quiet. He caught on pretty quickly - and learned that he can let the bit rest comfortably in his mouth without fussing as well as eat his treats without any problem. We only worked on it for about 5 minutes and by the end I could tell he got the message. I took the headstall off and gave him his "jackpot" and a break. When I came back, rather than working on it again, we went straight to riding. He didn't fuss with the bit again! That was easy 

Then, we did lateral flexion so I could make sure he'd give to the bit rather than fight it in the case that I did need to do some direct reining. He did fight a little at first, but I treated my boot as a target and clicked and treated when he gave to the bit and touched my boot. Again, this took only a few minutes before he got the idea that he was supposed to hold still and simply move with a slight tough to the rein.

We were also working on our "back up" cue under saddle and I hadn't seen him for 3 days, so we rode around the arena (neck reining) in all different directions and throwing in turns randomly, then I'd ask him to stop, and then I'd ask him to either back up or to do some lateral flexion. He didn't get his click until he did the backing up or lateral flexion, so he was being asked to perform whatever I asked him to that he already knew independent of the clicker. He gets it, so I no longer need to use the clicker for those things anymore! We'll still do some more on backing and lateral flexion, but today we're going to go ahead and add sidepassing into the mix. I doubt we'll get to it under saddle, but we're going to start working on it from the ground. I bet he's side-passing by the end of the week! Can't wait!


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## jaydee

Punks - she looks so pleased with herself, what a huge turnaround, just shows that time and patience will win
Looby has now gone from hating the fan to standing as close as she can to it - head over the partition so she gets full benefit - trouble is if she's been hosed all her mane dries upright so she looks like she's had her hoof in the plug socket
I think some people don't understand that the click and the treat aren't a permanent thing but part of the learning process. The benefit I find is that when put under stress they can still associate the click with a sort of 'feel good' thing so they calm down a lot faster


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## PunksTank

Way to go Jillybean!! Sounds like hes coming along really well.  I wish I had just one horse to invest all my time in like that. Thats fantastic!
Sounds like he's making great progress, but I hope your non-CT friend hasnt influenced this decrease in CT? Or is it more just moving on to the next skill? 
Also, while I agree bits are safer than halters, bits rely on pressure and release. Your horse who isnt used to any sort of strong pressure on his mouth may freak out more if he spooks and you grab for the bit. I feel like it may cause more of an accident. I always find the safest thing to ride a horse in is the thing they respond best in. For Tank it's a halter, because thats what j trained her to respond best too, and for my Belgian its a kimberwick, because we're stepping down from a broken liverpool. So the safest tool you can use on your horse is what the horse will respond to quickly, easily and most important, calmly. 
I guess thats why Tank responded to finding the target when she was scared better than me snapping her halter - both resulted in her turning her attention to me. But the target got her focused and thinking, while shanking her resulted in upsetting her more and causing near panic.
So glad to hear hes doing so well with backing up and foot targetting  thats a great idea for teaching lateral flexation! Ill have to try it, but not with Revel, hes a toe nibbler! 

Out of curiosity I've heard two ways lf steering horses with your legs, which do you guys all go for? Squeezing the inside leg a little behind the girth for the horse to bend around or squeezing the outside leg a little ahead for the horse to turn away from the pressure? Ive been using both, bjt im not sure if thats confusing her with too many signals and too much subtelty?


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## jillybean19

Ok so.... I know I only posted an hour and a half ago, but I ran out to get some stuff and work with Flash. I'll be out there again this afternoon, so I figured we'd do some basic stuff with side-passing, which we've never done before. I worked with him for a total of about 30 minutes, and I'm more than happy (and very impressed with him) to report that Flash is now side-passing from the ground!

Did I ever mention that CT rocks? 

So here's what we did - I watched the following video to get an idea of where to start, and then made some adaptations when we were working, which I'll describe below (sorry about the dogs - it really is a great tutorial!):






Armed with the knowledge from this video, I went out and set to work right away with Flash. The first thing I realized was that I was going to have to put his butt to the fence rather than his face, mainly because Flash's default movement is to back up. Then, I held him on a pretty short lead so I could control his head. Rather than standing at his side, I stood slightly in front of his face so I could push him back and push his head to the side. I tapped the carrot stick mainly on his side and rear to ask him to move over while I said "side". With the control of his head/shoulder up front with my hand and body, and control of his rear with the stick, he eventually took a sideways step, but I didn't click and treat until he moved both the front and rear at the same time. I didn't want him to think he was only move one end. It took some patience and a lot of coordination (and Flash got a little frustrated and even tried to jump forward once or twice), but he eventually moved both feet over at the same time and CLICK! He got his treat. He got the direction and started stepping sideways with the front or back, so it took some more maneuvering to get him earning clicks and treats, but he eventually got the idea down and was keeping his body perpendicular to the fence (another reason to use a fence - you can make sure he's actually moving the right direction with his whole body!).

I gave him a 5-minute break then came back. He was getting it right away and I didn't even have to push his head around and only had to wave the carrot stick by his side rather than actually tapping him, though I did to ask him to straighten out if he got crooked. He went all the way down the arena fence! I jackpotted him and probably should have stopped there, but I wanted to see if it translated to the other side. It didn't at first, but he caught on a lot quicker and then I had him going the other direction. (Tip - start with your more coordinated side first so that your uncoordinated side is easier! For me, I started by asking him to go right and holding the whip in my right hand first, and it took a minute to figure out my own body going the other way)

We took another (shorter) break, and then I asked him to sidepass to the right all the way down the arena fence, and then go back to the left to where we started, clicking every 4-5 sideways steps as long as he was still aligned and moving his whole body, not just the front or back. I'd say he looked pretty darn good! (And it was a lot quicker than the guy was saying in the video!) Now, he's moving just off of my body position with the whip and asking him to "side" without having to push, tap, or pull him anywhere to get him moving the way I want him to and even using a loose lead rope a lot of the time. I'm so proud of him!

I'm going to keep working on him from the ground until he's got it down really well - I learned how well that paid off with backing (he's done fantastic and is backing up a long ways with good speed now!). Once he's reliably moving sideways when I ask from the ground without hardly any pressure, I'll ask him to do it from the saddle. I plan to do it the same way with his butt to the fence and holding him from going forward - I'm really wanting the verbal cue to stick so I don't have to try and move his body with anything more than a light cue.

So let's see here. In two days I taught Flash to.... Accept a bit, lateral flexion, and side-pass from the ground, all things he'd never done before but did with ease with through clicker training. Did I mention I love this method??


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Way to go Jillybean!! Sounds like hes coming along really well.  I wish I had just one horse to invest all my time in like that. Thats fantastic!
> Sounds like he's making great progress, but I hope your non-CT friend hasnt influenced this decrease in CT? Or is it more just moving on to the next skill?
> Also, while I agree bits are safer than halters, bits rely on pressure and release. Your horse who isnt used to any sort of strong pressure on his mouth may freak out more if he spooks and you grab for the bit. I feel like it may cause more of an accident. I always find the safest thing to ride a horse in is the thing they respond best in. For Tank it's a halter, because thats what j trained her to respond best too, and for my Belgian its a kimberwick, because we're stepping down from a broken liverpool. So the safest tool you can use on your horse is what the horse will respond to quickly, easily and most important, calmly.
> I guess thats why Tank responded to finding the target when she was scared better than me snapping her halter - both resulted in her turning her attention to me. But the target got her focused and thinking, while shanking her resulted in upsetting her more and causing near panic.
> So glad to hear hes doing so well with backing up and foot targetting  thats a great idea for teaching lateral flexation! Ill have to try it, but not with Revel, hes a toe nibbler!
> 
> Out of curiosity I've heard two ways lf steering horses with your legs, which do you guys all go for? Squeezing the inside leg a little behind the girth for the horse to bend around or squeezing the outside leg a little ahead for the horse to turn away from the pressure? Ive been using both, bjt im not sure if thats confusing her with too many signals and too much subtelty?


Haha oh no, CT will always be a part of our training (in case you hadn't read the post I just put on here lol). As you say, it's more of a matter of moving on to the next skill. He's ready to phase out the clicker for all the basic things we've done at a walk. I'm trotting sometimes and still carry the clicker for that, but I want to teach more skills before we move on to doing things faster.

A halter is fine in the arena (and, of course, we're starting to go without even that), but my friend talked some sense into me about trail riding before Flash had the opportunity to knock it into me. Since he's only ever had pressure from a halter, that's currently the "safest" thing I could probably ride him in - as you said, Flash might freak out if I just put a bit in his mouth and he suddenly has pressure, which could make things worse in an emergency. However, should something happen - especially on a trail - any horse CAN run through a halter much easier than a bit. Just like I hope I'll never need my helmet or seat belt, I hope I never need to haul on the bit to stop him, but will be thankful that I had the bit to do so should it ever happen. So, I decided he needed to learn to respond to a bit in order to be safe enough to do the trail riding I want to. This doesn't mean I'm going to be direct reining all the time, but rather teach him to give when I ask him to. That's why we did lateral flexion - he quickly learned not to fight but rather just to turn his head with a soft touch. I'll be riding him with a bit every day now and treating it just like a new skill by clicking and treating for proper responses to the bit, whether it's just holding it quietly while we neck rein or giving quietly to pressure when asked.

By the way, Flash is also a toe nibbler - which I quickly corrected a while back when we were just riding. It's just like mugging for treats - he won't get good things, and risks getting something he doesn't like instead. In this case, it was a light but swift kick to the nose - it didn't hurt, but it surprised him. He doesn't nibble my toes anymore.

As for leg reining, I usually push the front end around with my feet close to the cinch/girth. We haven't worked on giving the back end yet, but we'll be doing that, too. In my opinion, though I've never had a horse thoroughly trained this way, I think it's important for a horse to know which part of their body you're asking them to move and they should be able to give them from under the saddle just like they do from the ground. I'd start with the basic moving away from your foot first, then refine what they're supposed to move later. One way Alexandria Kurland shows this in her book from the ground is to put duct tape markers on your horse so that you're consistent with where you're tapping the whip and applying pressure so your horse can learn which spot means what. And like everything else, if you do it properly on the ground, it will translate into proper movement while riding. I'm not there yet, so I haven't worked out exactly how I want to do it, but we'll get there someday once we've exhausted our current list of things to train (which it seems like we're doing rather quickly!) haha


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> Out of curiosity I've heard two ways lf steering horses with your legs, which do you guys all go for? Squeezing the inside leg a little behind the girth for the horse to bend around or squeezing the outside leg a little ahead for the horse to turn away from the pressure? Ive been using both, bjt im not sure if thats confusing her with too many signals and too much subtelty?


Here's a list of cues that I found handy when trying to decide exactly how to train Flash off leg cues, including the way that I stop him now without any rein pressure  All Around Horses: Leg Cues for Riding Your Horse


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## jaydee

I think the above link covers it really well
Think about your leg being the thing that moves the quarters over so the further back your leg is and the more pressure you apply the more 'turn' you'll get
In a normal circle your inside leg remains on the girth and the outside one slightly behind to ask the horse to not swing outwards but if you want to make a tight turn then you can get more action from the back end by moving your leg further back - which might mean opening up the outside leg slightly to allow the horse to step into it and then closing it again when you reach the right position in the turn
I start from the ground by pushing the horse over and saying 'turn' if I want to just move the quarters - If I want a sidestep I use the command 'over'


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## Saddlebag

Punk, I suspect she's zoning out. My spooky boy could have given lessons he was so good at it. When it dawned on me I realized I needed to keep his mind busy. If I was beside him and he looked away, a hard pull brought his attention back to me. I knew in those few seconds he'd be slipping into la-la land and scaring the crap out of himself when he came back to reality. Keeping his attention on me became my focus. He soon learned to follow my every move or his head got a yank. It was a joyous time when I realized he'd gone 30 days without mentally retreating.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag, her issues are all just about worked out. I wish you would read my previous responses - ill be repeating everything I've already posted. 
She's not spacing out, she's obsessing. At one barn I work at we call this Arabian Mare Syndrome. It clearly effects more than just arabian mares, its just so iconic of them in particular. Its when you dwell and obsess on something thats mildly concerning, you build it up in your head until it's absolutely terrifying. At this point you freeze up and/or explode. It happens mostly with intelligent horses who dont have enough better things to think about. 
Your absolutely right I need to get her focus back on me and away from dwelling on this concerning object. Though if you'd read one of the last things I posted you'd see exactly why I don't do what you suggested.
When her attention diverts to scary things if I snap the rope or do anything else to physically get her attention back on me, pulling or pushing or shouting (because general talking isnt enough) then she reacts explosively or freezes up all together. At this point she is sure that the object is scary and im trying to force her to be near it. This turns into a violent battle of wills and strength, and when her will gives out her strength beats me. She bolts backwards and to her stall faster and stronger than I can prevent. 
But if I maintain her focus by having her touch her target she is calm and responsive. No aggression and no battles. 
This is why I asked the clicker training thread - because pressure doesn't work.


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## jillybean19

PunksTank said:


> That's so cute Jaydee ^^ I also find it easier to train horses who are likely to mug people using treats to teach them how to accept a treat, rather than just avoiding the issue all together.
> 
> Today went great for all my horses!! Tank had 2 days inside due to thunderstorms and me working too much, so I was very concerned that she would be terrible to get out today. She was actually fantastic! She's still nervous and tense in and out of her stall, but I brought my target and kept her focused and moving without giving her time to analyze anything that made her nervous - but I did put the target on some things that made her nervous, but only if it was in our path and we could achieve it quickly. She walked right out without freezing up, but still clearly nervous. She was so good I brought her to a different paddock that's further away and she handled this situation exceptionally well. Coming back in though she got very scared of the garage windows with her reflection in them, she bolted sideways, but stopped when she reached the end of the leadline and then found the target. Then we worked on the target until she was touching the window, she didn't bat an eye at the second window we past. She's coming along! The only diet change so far has been reintroducing Brewer's Yeast, but when it arrives I'm going to start her on MagRestore to see if that at least allows her to be unafraid in her stall.
> 
> I worked with Viking today too (my 3 year old from the last video) He was exceptional! I worked with him outside today, I had him on lead because he's very dangerous off lead, won't hesitate to kick or strike. I started by standing next to him and C+T when his head was straight ahead. He exaggerated it a bit and turned a bit further away, but this time he didn't turn back to me when I clicked, he learned to wait with his head straight and the treat would come to him there. Then I just started taking a step or two, wanting him to keep himself in the same position next to me. He caught on FAST. I would walk, then stop, if he went to far he'd back up or circle around me to get back in position.
> I then went to his other side and spent a few minutes teaching all the same things, but his attention span was coming to a close so I ended it on a good note. Later that day though when I went through his paddock he did throw a hissy fit about having to back out of my space and actually reared, no striking this time, but he got in a good bit of trouble for that. Off lead he's seriously dangerous, I guess I'll stick to on-lead until his manners improve.
> 
> So things are looking up, someone got a video of me with Viking, but hasn't sent it to me yet. I'm still having trouble with making him stay calm when I make him wait a bit for the treat, if I try to make him stand straight and face ahead for more than a few seconds he'll start touching me, turning to face me, backing up, just fidgetting, I'm not sure how to stretch out the cue making him stand longer.


WOOHOOOOO WITH TANK!! It sounds like you got right to the heart of the problem. I was SO excited when I read this! And I'm so glad you found a solution that works for her!

Keep it up with Viking, too. It sounds like you're doing great with troubleshooting for individual horses and their needs  Keep it up!


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## PunksTank

Had some more fun with Tank today, this was Tank's first introduction to ground poles. I moved her into a new paddock, this one isn't as overgrown and we can actually move around. This is her very first time doing anything in this paddock and her first time learning about ground poles. 
She did surprisingly well for both of those things! She had lots of energy in the beginning, but it dwindled fast, she's just miserable in the bugs. The only funny thing I noticed is that she seemed to forget how to change directions while lunging, I don't know if it's the new paddock or the ground poles that's throwing her off, but she threw a little temper tantrum at about the 4 minute mark when I asked her to change directions xD Good thing she's pretty when she's naughty!
She was funny, she tried all sorts of combinations, I think to start she thought she just had to trot near the poles, or outside them, or inside them, or walk, eventually she figured out I'd give her the food just for walking over them, I'd take a trot too, but today I'm not going to be picky! I started out trying to lunge her over them, but found it easier if I was closer to her, making my inside circle a little bigger just helped her find where she needed to be. Lots of fun today  
I stopped after only a few minutes because the bugs were really bothering her, you'll probably see she keeps pawing her belly, it's so itchy  that's why she didn't like that last treat, I had belly cream on my hands.


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## jaydee

When I recall how you described her a year ago and all your problems she looks to be a totally different horse to the way she was then, obviously dealing with things in a very different way. You must be so pleased with the progress
She is a fantastic looking horse, you have her in great condition


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## PunksTank

Thanks Jaydee  If you consider "round" as a shape - yup she's perfect :3 Now that you mention it, I haven't really thought of her now compared to her a year ago and wow! You're right, I'm so proud of how far she's come. 

I just came home from a clinic with Shawna Karrasch - I had a blast!! I just auditted, but I learned so much and getting to meet some other New Englanders who Clicker Trained was a real confidence boost - I was beginning to feel really alone. 
I thought that I'd write some of the things I learned on here to see if it helps others. I'll try not to repeat too much from the OP. 

We talked alot about +reinforcement, -reinforcement, +punishment and -punishment. I know these were already defined in much more detail in the OPs, but I figured I'd resay it (to make sure I've got it down solid) and in case someone's poking into this thread now.
I like to start with 
Negative (-) Reinforcement: The_ removal_ of something unwanted that _increases_ the frequency of the behavior (this is most commonly used in traditional and natural horsemanship)
Positive (+) Reinforcement: The _addition_ of something desired that _increases_ the frequency of the behavior (this is what CT focuses on)
Negative (-) Punishment: The _removal _of something desired to _decrease _the frequency of a behavior
Positive (+) Punishment: The _addition_ of something unwanted to _decrease_ the frequency of a behavior

The biggest thing I never really thought about with the +/- Punishments and Reinforcements - is that we have to look at the results to see what the horse wants and doesn't want. We have to be careful not to put our own human standards on what we think horses should and shouldn't want. For example, one of our rescues likes to nip people as they walk by, resulting in the person trying to hit him or yell at him (which we would think would be +punishment, thinking the horse doesn't want to be hit or scolded). But the behavior increased in frequency, despite the (+)Punishment, so clearly it was actually reinforcing it - the pony just wanted a fight and enjoyed the reactions he got. 
So I learned the best response for horses who don't respond well to +punishment (when +punishment actually ends up reinforcing a behavior) that -Punishement is best. In this case the pony wants a fight (or to watch us squawk) - so by giving him nothing, removing all stimulus when he acts like this will be sure to not reinforce anything. Also keeping his door closed so as not to set him up for failure will help while we replace the behavior with better options.
So I learned not to place my own values on what I consider Punishment or Reinforcement, and use the results alone to determine how the horse perceives it.


Another thing I learned was about Thresholds. What I came to understand a horse's "threshold" as (correct me if I'm using the term incorrectly), is when a horse has reached a line in their mind when they're too concerned (working up to afraid) to really learn. Our goal is to keep the horse working well below the threshold, only approaching it to help get a horse more comfortable with something that concerns them, but always trying to keep them below the line.
I've found, personally, that I work with my nervous mare a little too close to the line - and sometimes over the line. I need to focus more on keeping her under the line and taking our time toward the things that concern her. It's easier to work under the line and work her up, than to start over the line.



Another important thing I came across is truly the importance of a JackPot at the end of a session. We all know to try to end on "a good note" but by not jackpotting the last skill they learned you may also be using -Punishment. Ending the session, when they still want to be doing it, when they've done something very well, you're removing what they want and could be decreasing the behavior. 
Here's an example of why I found this so important. My 3 year old colt, who's very pushy and invasive - when I started CT with him he started out alright, but got pushier during the session, when it got too far I stopped the session with no jackpot. When I returned later he was much better about my space and was much calmer. So my leaving while he was acting inappropriately (while he still wanted me around) acted as negative punishment, and ended that behavior. 
So if not using a jackpot has such a strong response to end that behavior I want to be sure to provide a good solid jackpot when the session ends on a good note, letting them look forward to every step of the training, even the end.

One last thing Shawna suggested was giving the horses a heavily reinforced safe place in their stall. Like a stationary target, I think this will help my mare alot. Shawna used a cue that she could do while riding too, that helps them calm back down if they get nervous while riding too. Giving them a simple cue that occupies their mind and makes them feel happier. 

I learned so much, I'm sure I'll think of more later - but if I have anything incorrect or if anyone wants to build on anything I've mentioned - please feel free, I'm eager to hear. 
I can't thank Shawna and the others at the clinic enough, I had so much fun and learned so much 


I came right home and started working with my horses again. I taught Tank a new target, one that I'm going to attach to her wall. I'm actually going to do this with all my horses, it will probably help when I'm cleaning their stalls around them and when the vet is around and things like that 
I never bothered much with my belgian, he's very well trained, but there are a few little nit-picky things I'd like him to be better with. I started him with just keeping his head straight and not mugging but never went further than that. This morning while I was working with Tank all I could hear was Revel opening and closing his stall door, he doesn't do it to get out (he has a stall guard) he just likes to open and close his latch. So I decided to spend a few minutes giving him something constructive to work on and brought the target into his stall for the first time. He was Brilliant! He figured it out in seconds!! I can't believe how smart he is - I'm glad I recorded it. 






How is everyone else's horses doing? What are some skills you're all working on?


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## jaydee

I really should look out for these sort of clinics - not just CT but others as well, sometimes I see them advertised and then don't make a note of the dates and forget about them
This heat and humidity is helping nothing and its easy to see how Honeys behavior is affected by it and we see a pattern developing - which is good because now we know better how to deal with her and also that there isn't anything physically wrong as such - she is actually a lot smarter than we've ever given her credit for!!!
I do think that staying just on the right side of the comfort zone is the way to go - all horses have a breaking point - doesn't mean you cant challenge them, you just have to do it gradually so they barely notice. I've seen some terrible disasters where people have taken well behaved in the ménage newly broke horses out on the roads/trails on their own for their first outing and they just haven't coped at all - some will but you can do damage that's hard to repair if it goes badly.
A strange thing with Looby - I finally bought her a lovely square shaped saddle pad to replace the old and oversized 'saddle shaped' sheepskin one. Now this is a horse that has blankets on and a fly mask etc with no worries but she took one look at that pad and got really jumpy and anxious (My husband said she didn't like the design/colour/brand!!)
She was a bit tense when I rode her and shied away from it when I untacked her. Same again the next 2 days but she seemed worse when ridden and shot off a couple of times - quarters all tucked under her like she had a monster up her backside. I decided to give up and put her oldie back on - and now more worries. We had an odd experience last year with Jazzie and a synthetic sheepskin but she has one like this and is happy in it
Another funny - We had someone here collecting our muck that we store in 3 wood sided compounds and they had to leave their machine behind in the corner of the field. All the horses walked past it without a look - Jazzie even had to go back and thoroughly inspect it when she was loose yet every single one of them had a really good stare at the empty spaces where the muck had once been!!!


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## PunksTank

Ya, definitely keep an eye out  It was tons of fun. I just saw you're from CT, maybe we'll meet at a clinic someday!
That's so funny about her reaction to the new pad, did you try doing any CT to get her more comfortable with it? Targeting it and having it rubbed on her? 
That is funny with the muck pile  Whenever our dumpster guy takes my dumpster away the horses are always astounded by the empty spot in the driveway xD but my mare has done amazingly well with the dumpster, I had her targetting it and putting a foot on the loud metal and doing great with CT near it - hopefully it'll help her be comfortable with trailers in the future (but of course she only touches the dumpster doesn't stand on it). 

I always kind of understood keeping them under their threshold, but a lot of the training I'd seen (traditional and natural) encouraged horses to go over their threshold, get all worked up and then settle down. Learning that it was easier to deal quietly with the scary thing than to work when they're acting nervous. But with Tank in particular she doesn't come back down off that high for a great deal of time - and not while the concern is still present. So to work her up to her fear and rewarding for the correct responses was always much better than pushing her over her limit and bringing her back down.


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## jaydee

When I first picked the pad up to throw on her I honestly didn't really think anything of it as she's learnt to accept a blanket and hasn't bothered with new blankets so it was a lesson for me in a way. I did click and reward her afterwards - she will have it on but its easy to see how tense she is so on this one it wasn't looking like it would work so I decided to give up - maybe I shouldn't have but I feel that with all her past issues its just wasn't worth creating a big deal of it. Anyway Willow now has a smart new pad and I'll order a sheepskin in a smaller size for Loob!!!
A lot of horses that get pushed too hard are bullied and I don't find them to be very good partners to work with and if they end up with someone who's a bit timid they soon turn into bullies themselves. The one step at a time works best for me


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## PunksTank

Couldn't agree more Jaydee  when it's something simple like switching saddlepads there's no reason not to give the horse what they want! 


I feel silly being the only one to go on and on about my horses so please everyone keep posting ^-^
I worked with all my horses again, they're all doing so much better with mynew understandings from the clinic.
I worked with Viking again today, this is the first time introducing this target, the first time with a target outside and his first time at liberty. I've been very afraid to work him at liberty because he is and can be very aggressive (kicking and striking) - but I decided to just take it slow and see how he did. He was great! I was careful to always feed well away from my body and worked on my timing. He was kind of funny about it, he kept shifting trying to be next to me, kind of keeping his shoulder near me. I don't know if it had to do with our last lesson where I was working on leading and making sure he'd stop next to me and stay evenly away from my space. Maybe he thought everything needed to be done from that position and kept trying to put himself there? 
I'm curious to see what others see in how we did.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Nice work Punks! I like how your stance is more balanced and your arm swings out to feed where you want the head to be. 

I moved 2 months ago, so our training time has taken a big hit because we have so many projects to do to make our barn, pastures, home and yard usable. Our new place is a diamond in the rough, really rough. 

So my focus has been getting used to our new neighborhood, mainly mounted. April, the hot headed chestnut in my avatar, freaked out so much I had to slide off to keep her from jumping into a barb wire fence when our neighbors male llama ran over to see her! So we CT'ed by the llama's field quite a bit. Now she trots over to say hi to him!

We also are brushing up on stops and quarter turns as we are so out of practice. Everyone is in excellent health and spirits though, with 17 acres of turnout that is flat, open and full of things to eat. It seems to have mellowed everyone out a bit. Me included. I miss having stalls with water and feeders though. Now I feed them as a group outside, so our other lesson is no bossing when the humans are near. 

This thread keeps me going!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

I love hearing everyones progress and ideas
He looks to be getting a lot of benefit from that sort of work
I've not done anything with 'targeting' so really interested to see how that's going
I think that training a horse to be polite and respectful about treats probably does more for them than avoiding altogether - though I have all respect for peoples choice on using/not using them for reward.


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## PunksTank

Tiffany - That's so great, moving is miserable, but it sounds like you guys have gotten a great place - worth the work. It's awesome how quickly they change their mind about things with CT! xD We just had to get a few of our rescue ponies used to some alpacas living in our back field too - they were So confused!

Jaydee- I started by using Shawna's targeting techniques, I've found it to be really useful for starting skills - it helps persuade horses to do new skills without having to use pressure. Like for backing up, if you put the target at their chest they need to back up to reach it - so you don't need to use any pressure. Also for teaching horses to lead - again starting without any pressure, it's very useful. It also helps with things like trailer loading and getting them comfortable in new places because it's a heavily reinforced skill that helps them feel more comfortable.
Speaking of which, I just hung up a stationary target in Tank's stall, Shawna suggested this at her clinic because it helps give horses a safe spot to go. I had just worked with her a bit with it - this morning when I went to feed her I had her touch it then gave her her entire breakfast. Later on I turned her fan on without starting with a "taaaannkkkk.... I'm gonna turn the fan onnnnn" she jumpedand went right to her new target!! It was perfect, usually when she gets surprised like that she jumps and huffs and puffs and can't settle down for a good several minutes. It was like it shifted her back down to first gear - even without me clicking and treating at the target - I didn't have anything on me 


I can't agree more about the treat thing, IMO if you can't safely give your horse treats then they aren't very well trained are they? But to each their own, so long as they aren't abusing their horses I've got nothing to say  I'm just glad my horses are mine 

We had some new people posting up on here about wanting to start CT, I'm curious how they're doing? I think it was BlossomInSpring, LoveMyLilly and Klkavish? If you guys want I'd love to hear how all your horses are doing.


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## shawnakarrasch

Punkstank...Just watched the video with Revel. Oh my gosh, he is adorable and the two of you are really cute together. He did great and so did you. I love that you waited him out for a bit while he was making some mistakes and then changed the context which helped him to get it sorted out. I want to hug him.  It is so nice to have finally met you...and I plan on seeing you again!


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## shawnakarrasch

This thread has put a smile on my face tonight...I haven't checked in for a while but as I said long ago, it was nice to show up on this thread and see things going good, with good information. A lot of times the random +R/CT discussions I come across are kind of a mess....not you guys!! Nice job everyone.


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## PunksTank

Thanks Shawna! It was fantastic meeting you too, you really helped me sort everything out - things have been going so much smoother after the clinic 
Revel is really such a good boy, but his mind is a little too active  I had to padlock his stall, he's managed to open every clip I've tried! So he's working on just some targeting stuff now - get him thinking about something productive. 

Tank is doing GREAT!! I can't even begin to say how happy I am. I hung a target up in her stall, I taught her to touch and stay on it, now she has to touch and stay on it while I dump her meals - so it's huge reinforcement when she does it right. Now she loves her target, you were right about them going to their target when they're afraid. I think I figured out why her fan upsets her so much too - she can't hear what's happening around the barn and gets surprised easily. This morning I walked by her stall with her fan on, obviously she didn't hear me coming because she jumped, but she ran and touched her target! Usually she huffs and puffs for several minutes before settling down  She's also calming down in general going in and out. I'm going to start introducing 'scary' objects and getting her comfortable with them, in hopes of just building her confidence as a whole - even though most objects don't bother her.

Viking is doing great!! I'm so proud of him, he's got targeting solid now, just touching it, not following or staying on it yet. But he has a more pressing issue with getting his feet done that I'm working on now. It was funny, I thought the trouble would be picking up his foot, but the trouble was just facing away from him! He was backing up for several minutes, trying to get me back where he thought I ought to be. But I just stuck with him and waited for him to stop and stand still and C+T. Once he got that he needed to just stay still I worked on picking up his fronts, heavily reinforcing while they were up. He's not great - he really doesn't trust people much and giving away a foot is pretty dangerous - but he's trying. He also let me clean his sheath today for the first time!! Thank goodness! 

I wish I had more time, my little pony Punkin' is very jealous, he figures out my games faster than any of the others - I just haven't got the time, and it's a million degrees out.  when it cools off I'm going to work on doing little jumps with him! 



I love coming to this thread too, such great information and friendly people  I recommend it to everyone interested in CT!


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## jaydee

This heat isn't helping anything is it
I had great success with the CT establishing that they didn't charge out the moment I opened the stable door but I have no use of it at present as I open all the doors and they just stand there and prefer to stay in. Every one has to be either pushed or dragged out and this morning Willow came back in 3 times before I'd even got to Looby to drag her out.


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## Saddlebag

Even with CT it's amazing how we have to adapt it to each horse. My twh is wonderfully responsive to it yet the qh is more "whatever". The twh is very respectful of space and will stand back about 10'. The qh, his idea of space is to be almost on top of me. He's not aggressive at all but enjoys attention, loves to have his jaws rubbed. Quite by accident, I discovered the clicker has a calming affect on the twh. when I click it 4 times. That is his signal to come to me. The clicker wasn't always clicking as it should so I was playing around with it. Whatever made him decide 4 clicks was his signal to come to me, I haven't a clue but it works every time.


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## Saddlebag

Punk, I had to laugh at your mare. She's not afraid of the ground poles, like most horses the ground beside them is perfectly good, so that's where she goes. Don't click so often. She is quite capable of completing a circle without a reward. Work on one side until she's doing well then work on the other. You are confusing her with all the rewarding. When she will trot three circles, her reward is being allowed to walk.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag said:


> Punk, I had to laugh at your mare. She's not afraid of the ground poles, like most horses the ground beside them is perfectly good, so that's where she goes. Don't click so often. She is quite capable of completing a circle without a reward. Work on one side until she's doing well then work on the other. You are confusing her with all the rewarding. When she will trot three circles, her reward is being allowed to walk.


I appreciate your help. I was clicking a lot, but this washer first time ever with ground poles, only her 4th time longing without a line, and her first time doing CT in this paddock, so with all the changes I wanted this to be especially reinforcing for her.
I don't believe she was afraid of the poles, she's just lazy and wanted to figure out exactly what she got the click for, was it the circle, was it trotting or was it the poles? So she had to rule out the other choices first. At first I was only going to C+T for completing circles, but when I found it so difficult to get her over the poles I found the best thing to do was to stay closer to her and point out the poles. I wanted to really set her up for success. I don't think she was at all confused by the reinforcement, I think she was just a little thrown off because stuff was different in her path. I don't reward my horses by letting them relax alone. 
I think you're still very focused on having me use pressure/release type training - and while I'll use that as well, I really prefer to use CT. I'd rather reward her with a treat and keep moving than have to let her stop constantly. If I were to force her, by use of pressure, to trot 3 laps and have her only reward be to walk, which she doesn't even want to be doing either she wouldn't be having much fun. I'd also have to use a great deal more pressure. When I use clicker training the horse ups the anti themselves, if walking the circle gets me treats, trotting it must be even better! But with pressure and release I need to increase the pressure more and more to get a better reaction. Also being at liberty using excessive pressure she'll be more likely to just want to leave, causing me to need to use more and more pressure to make her realize being with me is even less work than being without me. While if I use a reward she actually wants she'll stay with me doing what I ask with minimal amount of pressure. 

As she learns the ground poles better I'll be clicking much less, but this was her first time. Her little temper tantrum was pretty hilarious though. She has a tendency to get overwhelmed and need to take a moment to herself. But she always comes right back and works a ton better than before.


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## Saddlebag

When you ask your horse to move, even one foot, that is pressure. Even tho you reward for something well done, you have still using pressure and release. It is important to a horse to conserve energy, in case of having to make a mad dash from a perceived predator. This is why even just turning your back to a horse and allowing it to do nothing, removes pressure. If you face the horse, the pressure hasn't been completely removed. If you have other poles, place them so they form angled wings which will help guide her even if only over one pole and raise it so she has to watch where she's putting her feet. Ever watch a novice trail class and some horses absolutely refuse to do the bridge? That's because in their minds the ground around it is perfectly good.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag, yes you're right, even just a shift in my body language _is_ a form of pressure - I like to use as little as possible. Clicker work allows me to use a minimal amount of pressure and never needing to increase the pressure for any reason - because the horse will up their own standards. 
When I taught tank to lunge it took no more pressure to ask for a trot than it did to ask her to walk. I asked her to walk out and clicked and treated the moment she moved away from me, each time gradually asking for more until she could walk a full lap around me. I clicked and treated an awful lot to get to that point but it took maybe total of 2, 5 minute sessions to get her confidently walking around me in both directions. By the 4th or 5th session she was confident lunging for indefinite amounts of time at the walk in both directions. I no longer needed to click or treat unless I changed something, but I would throw in some every now or then, I've started fine tuning her walking lunge I want her really working from her hind end rather than just lumbering around. But at this point I worked on the trot, she knew the word from our in hand work and it took no more pressure than just me raising my hand and saying "trot" - at first I C+T when she just sped up her walk, then when she actually trotted a step or two, then up until she was trotting laps. I don't usually have her do more than 2 laps before I ask her to change something, at which point I still C+T. I want to strongly reinforce those changes so that she loves when I change something (for better or worse). I don't want her to see trotting as punishment or walking as relief, I want her to love doing whatever I ask her to do. 
So when I added the ground poles, sure I could have put her on a line and trotted her fat but over them around and around to make her do it, letting her walk after several laps. But she wouldn't love going over ground poles, she wouldn't have learned to go over the obstacle I point at, she wouldn't be eager to get lunged. I can make her walk over any obstacle or move at an pace, my goal is to make her want to do it eagerly and use as little force as possible. 

I'm not opposed to using pressure and release, but I want it backed up with a click and treat. I only want to use as much pressure as it takes to clearly state what I want, but not so much that she doesn't have a choice. I want her to always make the right choice - because she wants too.
Using minimal pressure and solid rewards horses will up their own standards, with lunging at the walk, she thought "if walking faster gets me clicks, trotting must be better!!" and she trotted, without me needing to increase the pressure.

Saddlebag, I'm really happy to hear suggestions and guidance on how to better my clicker training work. But I don't want to fall back into resorting so strongly on negative reinforcement. I'm happy to hear what you have to say, but I'm only interested in bettering my clicker work, not going back to traditional or natural horsemanship styles - I already did that, I'm finding better results with this. I'm not opposed to mixing positive and negative reinforcements, but I want to be more on the + side of reinforcement.


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## Saddlebag

Good for you. I tho't perhaps you didn't understand how little it takes to put pressure on a horse. I apologize. I enjoy reading about your progress.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag said:


> Good for you. I tho't perhaps you didn't understand how little it takes to put pressure on a horse. I apologize. I enjoy reading about your progress.



Thanks  I do appreciate the help - I'm always happy to hear ideas on how to get better. But I do like to strongly reinforce new skills, so I may C+T more often than others, but I want my horse to _love_ going over those poles. 
I do understand pressure, in fact just at Shawna's clinic we were discussing how releasing pressure at the same time as C+T can really make the message clear. In the case of one of the horses at the clinic, she was very nervous around new people, so when she approached she got her C+T, but the person also backed up a step or two. Just the person's very presence was "pressure" to the horse, so by stepping out of her space when she did the right thing, on top of the click+treat, the horse was doubly reinforced. It was dramatic the change in the horse. 
So while I try to use as little pressure as possible, eliminating it completely is unreasonable. Some "pressure" is very helpful, and even needed, to help guide the horse to making the right choice.
But I do like to heavily reinforce new skills and keep the lessons short and sweet


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## jaydee

Short and sweet is really essential IMO, its always better to end on a good note than to push the horse into frustration or boredom and create a confrontation that might destroy all the good you've done. You can easily build up the work time over a long period.


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## jillybean19

Ok, I'm back with an updated and some thoughts  Sorry I don't post very often - I just began my teaching career with a summer school class that I taught and have my first official regular academic position this fall in Las Vegas, so I've been scrambling to have classes together, keeping the house clean for showings, ordering supplies and decorations for my new classroom, working on a grad school class, and somehow still making time to work with Flash. But I have a moment this morning, so here's my update and a few thoughts I had about CT in general.

Punks - thanks so much for your posts! Especially with your updates about Tank. You keep this thread going! And we all appreciate it  The clinic sounds amazing and I loved your post!

Flash has been doing well. We're neck reining, stopping, backing, and sidepassing all the time now. We're just trying to clarify which cue means what now haha. But we got it figured out - and he's going VERY well in the bit after our first CT session teaching him not to chew on it haha. He has absolutely no trouble eating his hay cubes with the bit it, which I was worried about so I'm glad he's doing so well. One of the funny things I've noticed, now, is that he will continue eating his hay when I show up until he sees me grab my helmet CT bag, and halter. Then, he knows it's time to work and I'm ready for him so he comes to the door (leaving the rest of his hay). And yes, he still works just as hard even when he's just eaten most of his breakfast/dinner. He's VERY food motivated and would eat constantly if I let him haha.

There are occasions he won't take a treat, I've noticed. For example, yesterday we were working on yeilding hindquarters and he got a few good smacks on the rump with a dressage whip (I'll explain why in a moment). I usually don't get after him that hard, so I think I "put him off" and, while he was complient, he wouldn't eat the treat when I give it to him. It kind of reminded me of when kids will do what you say because they have to, but let you know they're not happy about it and only doing it because they don't have another choice haha. However, we had things we had to work on and weren't going to just stop, so we continued. I kept clicking when he did what I wanted him to, but stopped offering treats until we were done. Interestingly enough, he still worked for the click. In this case, I believe the release of pressure and giving him a moment to relax without worrying about that darn whip was the reinforcement, and the click still meant "that's right" to him, so he knew he could stop when he got it. Afterward, we went back to easier things he already knew and he gladly took his treats again. Such a funny horse!

So, I hope that made sense out of context, but I wanted to focus on what we were working on and why. Flash is still 3 years old and can be a punk sometimes. While he's not a "kicker", he also has not learned that kicking is never OK, either. Occaisonally, when I've gotten after him with a longe whip, he's offered a little kick but we just kept working until he stopped, which didn't take long. However, last week he was turned loose in the arena. I was trying to get him to run around and play since he doesn't have room to do it in his stall, and I was waving my hands as I didn't have a whip. Flash isn't the most "reactive" horse and didn't move very quickly. Rather, he turned away from me and started walking. I picked up my energy and caught up with him, giving him a smack on the rump - and in a split second I felt his hock hit my arm, which was _shouler height_. Luckily, my horse sense placed me off to the side so I wasn't hurt at all, but a foot to the right and I would have gotten a hoof in the chest. Unfortunately, I didn't have a whip on me and had to go get one to make him run for that. Admittedly, I was acting pretty aggressively when he kicked, but there is still no excuse for that behavior and exposed a big hole that I'd left in his training.

I think my focus on CT contributed to this hole as I focused on always having so little pressure and keeping things low energy, so he didn't know how to respond when there was pressure. He only did what is natural - he turned away and defended himself. So now, I'm working on teaching him how to respond to pressure appropriately. This means I have to us pressure and release to get him used to it, but I have been using CT to tell him when he's responded appropriately. For instance, I mentioned that we were working on yeilding his hindquarters. Flash's "natural" reaction is just to turn and move away from me (giving me his butt), when what I want is for him to just turn his hindquarters away from me and to face me. When he can't get away (or at least doesn't get away fast enough), he defends himself with a kick - though it's always been a little "butt hop" and never a full-blown kick until last week. So, I put him on a lead and moved aggressively towards his hindquarters. When I got within reach (meaning he didn't move away when I asked), he got a smack with the dressage whip. At first, he just tried to run away from me and wouldn't turn (and, as predicted, he did offer a little kick to which he got a good smack in return), but as soon as he moved just his hind end, he got a click and a treat (though this is where he temporarily stopped accepting treats - after he started understanding and wasn't getting smacked anymore, we tooke a break and he accepted treats after that). He's doing well on a lead, now, but our problems are mostly when he's loose because he sees this as chasing him away without a leadrope. It became very clear to me when he got cornered and his rump was to me, but he kept trying to turn and run past me rather than just turning his rump away from me. We moved to a round pen where we had satisfactory improvement and got to a good stopping point, but are far from solid. It'll be interesting to see how yesterday's lesson carries over to today.

Anyway, this experience just made me think.... Obviously, I'm still using CT and will continue to do so, but because we never worked through pressure, he never learned how to react to it. And EVERY horse needs to know that kicking is NEVER an option, regardless of how uncomfortable they might be. Because I never had to put him in that position using CT, he never had that lesson and it left a dangerous hole in his training. Flash is unique in that he's only ever been trained using CT, so this might not happen with a horse that had their initial training done in a "traditional" way and knew how to react to an uncomfortable amount of pressure. Of course, I'm still using CT to let him know he's reacting to the pressure appropriately and will step down the pressure when he's doing so, but I need to know that he will not ever offer to kick again regardless of the situation.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Overall I'm really proud of Flash and am trying to throw some curveballs in there to mix things up and challenge him, like asking for different things at random times and using the clicker as little as possible so that he can learn to function independently from it. We're not really going to do anything new (other than responding to pressure and yeilding the parts of his body that I ask him to) for a while because he's headed to Vegas in a week and I won't see him for two weeks after that until I move.

While I am still using CT to teach new skills, I'm to that threshold where you start asking for more and reinforcing less - the part that many non CT-people don't seem to understand. Eventually, the goal is to have your horse function independently without needing reinforcement or be caught in a constant "training" routine - just like traditional training. Right now Flash can do most of the things we've worked on without reinforcement and I can reliably take him down the trail bareback and without a clicker (though I keep it on me for obstacles that we haven't worked on or in case of emergency since he reliably stops and refocuses when he hears the clicker). One of the things I'd like to "teach" him, though, is how to use the skills we've already worked on in order to learn new things independent of the clicker. Ultimately, I want to be able to ride without worrying about grabbing my clicker - which means he needs to learn to work through things without the "yes" cue. There's no way that we can prepare for everything our horses will ever have to encounter or do (especially as a trail horse), so I want to know that I don't need my clicker in order to meet those challenges. Essentially, this will be when I consder Flash to be "finished", though every horse continues learning through their lifetime. It's like growing up - we spend the first 18 or so years of our lives dependent and reliant upon parents, teachers, mentors, and other adults to hold our hands and get us to adulthood, and then we're sent off into the big world on our own (hopefully) equipped with the skills we need to survive and succeed. Of course, there are sometimes big challenges where we have to go back to our parents or other mentors, but we work through them, learn, and move on. Similarily, there will occasionally be those things that I need to return to CT for when he just needs to hear that "yes" signal to know what he's supposed to be doing regardless of how well he is trained. There will just be those times where it's clearer and easier - but I want to limit the use of the clicker to those times.

That is a ways off for us, but it's time to start considering since he's becoming solid enough in his basic skills to apply them in new contexts to learn new things. I'm hoping that this "responding to pressure" will help as he learns to be quick, precise, and accurate in responding to specific cues rather than just learning to "move away from pressure". Of course, that means I have to be clear and consistent about those cues as well, like making sure I always touch the same spot when asking him to move in a certain way.

In sum, though, Flash has sure come a long way from the halter-broke yearling I brought home almost two years ago  and is a purely CT horse!


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## PunksTank

Very interesting stuff JillyBean! 
I can see how that could all happen, if you really baby step around a horse, picking up the energy could really be disastrous. I guess since I live with my horses and I'm around them constantly, with and without doing CT, they just get used to my eccentricities  My mare has such a hugable bum. Living with my horses really keeps them used to my crazy ways  the metal music playing in the barn helps keep them used to weird sounds xD They just get used to all my flapping.
Most of my horses are used to vigorous patting, bum slaps, hugs that probably suck the breath out of them xD I just goof off with them. I find walking on egg shells really can leave gaps in training. I want to be able to do anything to and around my horses, soft or firmly, quiet or loudly, without anything I didn't ask for happening. 
These things can be taught with CT too. When I teach yielding hind corners (or anything else)I like to always start with the least amount of pressure possible, then gradually increasing until I get the reaction I want. It sounds like you went from firm body language to firm pressure, skipping the soft pressure in between.
Typically I step into their space assertively, no response, I raise my finger pointed at their hip and say "over", if still nothing, I push a few fingers against them, gradually increasing the pressure until they yield - this earns them a C+T and immediate release of pressure. If you jump right to the whip it's really upping to the pressure to an extreme, not really guiding him to make the right choice first, which would explain why he'd just all out want to get out of there, rather than figure it out calmly. 
The other way you can teach them to yield their hind quarters with CT uses NO pressure what-so-ever, you teach them to stand on a mat, then work on targeting your hand with their hip, then they turn toward your hand.

I do understand working with an over excited colt who's prone to kicking, my little Viking monster is just like that. I've found the best thing to do is keep my energy up, but my body language quiet. If I'm perky and chatty and making everything a game, he's in great mood, but keeping my language quiet keeps him behaving quietly himself. I'm also working on picking up my energy with him without getting too much out of him, but we've just started all training a few weeks ago (I only get to see him once or twice a week). So it's going slow, but we've had a lot of _great_ progress. 
So I think you have two different issues with Flash, impulse control when the energy level is higher and yielding to pressure. Both of which I think can be done well with CT, it sounds like you are doing great. 
The only thing I'd do differently is increase your pressure more gradually so as not to push him over his threshold, keeping his learning constructive.



BTW, I think you're doing an absolutely fantastic job with Flash!! I wish I had the time to work with just one horse, continually like that. It sounds like your pretty crazy busy right now too though  You're such an inspiration, thank you for teaching me all you have so far!


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## jaydee

Interesting posts
My husband was putting the horses out at the weekend and right from the 'get go' Looby wasn't keen on the idea and was hanging around chatting to Jazzie. He went up and slapped her really hard on the butt and he said the moment he did it he knew it was a mistake. She isn't a kicker but she wasn't expecting it, maybe even thought it was Willow coming up behind her and she kicked back and caught his leg
Accident or no she had to see it wasn't a good idea but he just shouted at her and drove her out with the plastic shovel.
What was interesting though if he'd done that a year ago we wouldn't have gotten near her again for days but she didn't hold any grudge at all so her head must be getting into the right place.


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## jillybean19

Ok, I've got to clarify here - Flash is BOMBPROOF and always has been. This is the horse who, when I had to run inside and get something and left him with my little brother, followed me up the front steps, past the giant recycling bin, and was pushing the door open to get into the house when I ran back to stop him. He never shies at anything and it's just his personality, so I haven't ever walked on eggshells around him and have actually had more issues with him just being a big, immovable object sometimes haha. However, he's always alert, aware, and attentive to what I'm doing - he's just not a reactor (unless he gets frustrated, so CT helps a lot for us to have very clear communication). The other day, he had plenty of chances to react and move away from me - I started waiving my hands and shouting from halfway across the arena just to get him moving. But he didn't move, so when I got beside him I finally gave him a good smack on the bum. That finally got a reaction, but he wasn't nervous or scared or even excited. He didn't understand what I wanted, so didn't move quick enough, and got frustrated when I smacked him, so he kicked.

But, from what I can tell so far, it doesn't look like that will be an issue again. I swear this horse goes to his stall and studies all night because he yielding his hindquarters down this morning. He turned them away every single time I asked him to, and only got a few taps once or twice when I wanted him to move faster. We didn't have a single kick because he never got frustrated. And I should never be in a position to get kicked because that rump shouldn't be facing me - ever. I was very proud of him 

Some other things we're working on is "woah" - he understands that this means to stop when we're moving forward, but we never worked on it when going other directions (sidepassing and backing), so we practice stopping after we've been backing today as well as holding still since he seems to think that he's always supposed to be doing something. We're also working on clarifying cues and making sure he's going the right direction instead of just in any direction haha. I was very happy with him today!


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## jillybean19

Oh, and this also helps him to know kicking is not an option when someone gets aggressive with him. I've actually been trying to make a point of picking up my energy and "getting after" him with more pressure, and he's learning to respond quicker and faster rather than resisting it and getting frustrated.


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## PunksTank

Ohhh I see now  Sounds like he's doing very well!! Great job 




jillybean19 said:


> I've actually been trying to make a point of picking up my energy and "getting after" him with more pressure, and he's learning to respond quicker and faster rather than resisting it and getting frustrated.


I've found the best way to get a horse to respond faster and more exaggerated with a cue (one they know solid) is to start with intermittent reinforcement. Lets take my mare for example, she knows the cue for "back up" solidly, it's one we use several times a day, but when I reinforce every single time she backed up 1 or 2 steps, sure enough soon I only got 1 step each time and would have to beg for more and more - or _use more pressure_to get a better back up! I was so frustrated that her back up was getting worse when I reinforced it _so_ well!
Then I read Shawna's book  
Then I started asking for a back up and if it was only a step or two I would wait a moment with no reaction (just standing boringly) then ask again, the second time she was much more exaggerated! Before I clicked and treated maybe 90% of her 'back ups' no matter how lame they were. Now I'm not reinforcing unless she gives me a solid, confident back up. With her I don't care for speed or for her backing forever, but I want her to do be confident and sure about her actions. When I say "back up" I want her to mean it. Now I reinforce maybe 75% of the time, normally only at the best ones, but sometimes when I reinforce I'll click and just give her a belly rub for a minute or two (her favorite spot to be itched). Now she's learning degrees of reinforcement. Well she backed up but maybe it wasn't very straight, but she was sure about it! I'll click,but only reinforce with something a little less potent than food. I reserve food for only the _best_ back ups she can offer. It was a radical turn around for her.

So now once a horse knows a skill solidly I start fine tuning it by only reinforcing the best of them, reinforcing only about 75% - it keeps them focused and striving to be better each time, the hard part for me is being nit-picky and semi-random about it. I don't want to skip the reinforcement 1 out of every 4 times, to be sure it's 75%, because then the horse will start to dwindle near that fourth time. But if it's semi random (and also really focusing on the best the horse offers) the horse continues to strive to do better.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Jillybean , your post about Flash kicking out at you prompted a question for this thread group. I am a big fan of Alexandra Kurland and have "The click that teaches" as my first foray into CT. I also signed up for Giddyupflix and watched many of her videos, which are quit interesting. One video is called "The Poisoned Cue." 

In it, AK shares the research by a behavioral scientist on mixing +R with punishment . The subject was a dog. The researchers were training the dog in two different ways. One was with the dog totally free and rewarding the dog for every behavior that was a movement toward the desired behavior, or "shaping." The other way used a leash and, when dog did not respond as asked, would gently pull the dog by the leash. 

I am on a phone so I can't type adequately to give you all the details, but the conclusion one draws is not to mix +R with punishment or force as the subject acts confused and unresponsive as a result. 

Has anyone ever read about this research or seen this particular video?what do you think of this idea?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Jillybean , your post about Flash kicking out at you prompted a question for this thread group. I am a big fan of Alexandra Kurland and have "The click that teaches" as my first foray into CT. I also signed up for Giddyupflix and watched many of her videos, which are quit interesting. One video is called "The Poisoned Cue."
> 
> In it, AK shares the research by a behavioral scientist on mixing +R with punishment . The subject was a dog. The researchers were training the dog in two different ways. One was with the dog totally free and rewarding the dog for every behavior that was a movement toward the desired behavior, or "shaping." The other way used a leash and, when dog did not respond as asked, would gently pull the dog by the leash.
> 
> I am on a phone so I can't type adequately to give you all the details, but the conclusion one draws is not to mix +R with punishment or force as the subject acts confused and unresponsive as a result.
> 
> Has anyone ever read about this research or seen this particular video?what do you think of this idea?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great points and questions, I'm very curious to hear other people's opinions on this!! 

My personal beliefs are to use as little pressure as possible. But my pressure is limited to my presence and my touch (soft to firm, but never fast or causing any real discomfort). Like when teaching my horse to steer, I want her to direct rein the same as most horses know. I typically start by applying a gentle pressure to the rein at the same time as presenting the target to the side I want, this turns the 'pressure' into a cue. Gradually I wean off the target and expect her to just turn with the gentle pressure. I suppose the big difference comes from if the horse doesn't respond correctly. Applying more pressure when a horse is already unsure of how to act can usually react in the horse going 'over threshold' where they're confused or frustrated to the point where they aren't learning efficiently anymore. I want the horse to know what to do with the application of pressure and not be afraid of it, but at the same time, I don't want to use it as a training tool.
I think if I relied soley on molding a skill my horses would be very confused and get frustrated. My mare wants to do what I want, she'll desperately search for it, but if she doesn't stumble on it, she does get frustrated. Like the first time I asked her to back up, if I didn't step assertively into her space she may have tried a million things and given up before ever stumbling on backing up (even a little). So sometimes gentle pressure can help her stumble onto the right answer. I think though, that resorting to strong pressure is just trying to rush a learning process the horse hasn't truly understood yet. I think if the horse doesn't respond to gentle pressure (space invasion or firm touch) you need to better shape the skill. Such as yielding the hind end. You can teach them to target your hand with their hip, so they turn toward your hand. If you want them to move away from your hand, apply gentle pressure and when they even shift their weight away C+T. Repeat until you get a solid yield. Not increasing the pressure at all (the horse should increase their own criteria, because you are using a food reward). Once the horse knows to yield, if they aren't doing it well enough don't reward the woosy tries.

I find the best punishment for my horses is to just leave. My Viking was very rude the second time I went to CT with him, pushy and pinned ears. I simply left. When I came back several hours later he had a much better attitude. I think he just needed to try and see if being rude worked better than being polite (seeing as it's just us humans determining what's rude and what's polite). 
I try my hardest to avoid strong pressure, if I need to resort to it I must be going to fast or missing something.

I'm curious to learn more about poisoned cues and the idea of mixing negative and positive reinforcement (to the extreme of whipping or causing serious discomfort or even pain - mixed with +R). I would think it would make the horse really come to hate the food reward, if it means he needs to be put through something that uncomfortable in order to receive it, over time that food reward might start looking less and less appealing...


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## jillybean19

I think I draw the line where safety comes into play. There is value in having your horse respect that you are the dominant one in the relationship, and that's what Flash hadn't learned yet. He was happy as long as I didn't do anything he didn't like and he was perfectly comfortable, but when something annoyed him, he was resorting to dangerous behaviors (the kicking and hops). He wasn't over his threshold, though, and was perfectly capable of paying attention.

I used the yeilding of his hind end as a means to an end, rather than just the end itself. I wanted him to know that kicking and hopping with his front feet was not an option, even when he's frustrated or annoyed. So, knowing that getting after his hind end was one of the main triggers (especially because that put me behind him), I used yeilding his hind end as a way to teach him to move his butt away from me rather than kicking at me when he's uncomfortable.

I agree with Punks that I typically use the least amount of pressure possible, though this resulted in him never learning to stay obedient even when he wasn't happy. While this is the first time he's put me in danger, it isn't the first time he's kicked when he had a chance to. He's excellent about picking up his feet and with me working with them in general, but when he decided he was annoyed with my farrier he kicked at her, too. He wasn't nervous or uncomfortable - just ornery. So I wanted to teach him a lesson about respecting me with his hind end.

I'm happy to report, by the way, that he didn't forget that lesson. It wasn't "bad" or "terrible", but he wasn't happy about it either. He hardly even got smacked, either - after he got an initial smack with the dressage whip to get the message, he only needed a tap, then a wave, and now just a look at his rear and he turns it away from me. He's not nervous about it and is constantly licking his lips. In fact, we tried it out longing in the arena at liberty today and he was absolutely perfect.

I find that using initial pressure to clarify what I want speeds things up and results in less frustration from him. Things that were easy to shape I did - that's how I can ride him bridleless as I just pressed with my foot and then +R when he turned the way I wanted him to. I never even gave us the chance to become dependent on the bridle. However, with things like backing up under saddle, I combined the verbal cue (which he'd already learned in ground work) with pressure on the reins to tell him what I wanted. He knew I wanted him to move, so naturally went forward- but was met with pressure from the bit so he knew that wasn't it. Backing up isn't exactly intuitive to a horse, so I needed to somehow communicate with him what he was supposed to do and what he wasn't. Now, he backs up without me even having to hold the reins 

I will agree, though, that extreme punishments are counterproductive. Gentle, logical "no" responses are good when combined with reinforcements for "yes" responses. But severe punishments take the focus off wanting to try to do what's right and put it onto avoiding what you're doing wrong. I see it all the time when teaching students to speak Spanish - if a parent or teacher constantly corrects them when they try to talk (or especially when they get made fun of for mistakes), they eventually just stop talking altogether. But, if progress is reinforced and fine-tuned with gentle, loving, and constructive corrections, students flourish and are eagerly speaking and flourishing in the language, even if it's not perfect but yet it's functional and they continually improve as they practice.


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## jillybean19

Oh, and I should point out a small but key difference in what I do and the "pulling on the leash" example with the dog. My +P's are just the escalation of actual cues that I intend to use to tell Flash what I want to do. I don't do anything beyond what the intentional cue itself is. In contrast, if you were trying to teach a dog to walk beside you, that would easily be shaped. If you tried pulling on the leash and then +R when the dog puts slack in it, that's exactly what you're teaching it to do: wait for a pull on the leash. Of course, with the constant pulling - and the impossibility of a "voluntary" response from the dog as it's forcibly pulled where it's supposed to be - the trainer and dog would both get frustrated because the dog isn't understand or learning anything. For comparison in how my +R are actually just escalated cues, when backing on the ground, I turn and walk toward flash with my hand in front of his chest. If he didn't back up, he naturally had pressure on his nose from the halter pulling on the lead (and I always use rope halters for training for this reason). As soon as he backed up, he got +R, and he learned that he could avoid the pressure altogether if he just backed up when he got the cue from my hand moving toward his chest. Now, we back up on a completely loose lead, so if he doesn't respond quick enough, my hand ends up touching his chest. Now, he already knows the back up cue and is at a level where he doesn't need a click or treat nor should he be confused about what I'm asking him. I have higher expectations than I did when we first started. Thus, if my hand does reach his chest, he might get different reactions based on the situation. At minimum, he gets some light pokes in his chest to get his attention back. Sometimes the pokes are a bit firmer. However, if it's a situation where he's being disrespectful and crowding me, I use the rope (which has a leather popper on the end), to communicate loud and clearly that that is NOT okay by giving him a good smack on the chest. Like with the kicking and other saftey concerns, this is a situation where I don't feel that he's entiled to a calm, nice, and easy CT session because he better know darn well that he shouldn't be in my space and putting me in danger. If you let him, this horse will get so much into your space that you get stepped on and knocked over by him crowding you, so I want him to know that my bubble is definitely NOT a safe place for him to be (for either of us). However, I still click and treat to tell him "yes, that's what you're SUPPOSED to be doing instead" when he responds correctly and gets out of my space.

I guess this is what I've been trying to get at all along since this kicking incident. 99.9% of the time, CT is the way to go for training. In fact, I still use it during that other .1% of the time to reinforce what I _DO_ want. Still, there comes a time and a place where a statement has to be made loud and clear and "shapping" or any other "gentle" approach is not the answer - and that's when you're put in danger. Of course, dangerous situations can and should be avoided, like teaching a horse that's a known kicker alternative behaviors (like yeilding their hind end) that prevent there being even the opportunity to kick, but once you're in that dangerous situation, there's no time for a calm training session.

For me, it was a judgement call that I had to make to actually create a situation where Flash would want to kick so that I could teach him a lesson about what would happen if he ever thought about trying that again. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that everyone do the same thing, but I could potentially see Flash kicking someone (like my husband) that might unknowlingy do something relatively minor that annoyed him.


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## jillybean19

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I did also want to clarify that I would not have used such a "forceful" way to teach Flash to yeild his hind end had I not been worried about him someday kicking someone out of frustration or annoyance. Again, the whole point was to get him annoyed, but in a "constructive" way that he could be successful and learn to do something else, thus responding in a positive way to his frustration rather than in a negative and dangerous way.


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## PunksTank

I think I see what you're saying now. I'm still curious to know about using such strong -R in combination with +R and +P in combination with +R. Just curious for learning's sake.

I suppose I never had to deal with these situations because the first things I taught my horses were yielding to pressure on every inch. I've also begun to implement intermittent reinforcement once a skill is learned well, so it's always consistently strong, so I don't need to increase the pressure to get a better response. The intermittent reinforcement is what makes the horse want to work harder each time and pay better attention. I seem to recall you had to switch his rewards due to his lamenitic troubles. I wonder if his new behavioral troubles are because you switched to a less rewarding reward. Maybe his trouble with the farrier was pain related? Maybe he was tired of standing on his sore feet and did what he needed to to release the pressure - even if it meant kicking.

Now I agree in a dangerous situation you do what you must to be made safe. But when you get back to training I always try to act in a calm manner. I'm very curious to hear more opinions on this.


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## jillybean19

Naw, it's not something new or treat related. I should have seen it coming and left a hole in his training. He's just an ornery 3 year old that needs to learn his place, which I obviously haven't taught him (or at least I hadn't, and now I have haha).

Though while we're talking about treats, it never fails to amaze me how food motivated this horse is. I'm positive that as long as it's edible, he'll work for it. Actually, once I taught him that there are other good foods besides hay (he did go through that "skeptic" phase where he didn't recognize treats or other foods to be edible), I've never found a food he didn't guzzle down. When I first introduced him to mash, he watched Snickers eat his for a while, took a nibble here and there, and within 5 minutes I had to take Snickers out of the paddock to finish his mash because Flash wouldn't pull his head out of the bucket. After that, Snickers asserted his dominance to make sure he got his mash, but when I added Ultramin to it and Snickers turned up his nose, Flash happily finished both of their buckets. A lot of people don't use Ultramin because their horses won't eat it - but Flash actually licks the bottom of his bucket to make sure he's got every last bit.

I guess I couldn't ask for a better horse to do CT with haha. He's so excited to work every day because he knows there's food involved! And it never matters whether he's waiting for a meal, just ate one, or is in the middle of one - he gladly leaves his hay to work for more hay since that's what I'm using lol. I guess it must be "special" hay in his mind. Whatever. It makes us both happy - that's all that matters!


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## jillybean19

I guess, though, I did want to make a point that there are times you might temporarily forgo CT when there's a question of safety. I remember Punks asking about when it's ok to +P in the context of Viking getting pushy about treats, like when I give Flash a firm smack on the nose if he takes his treat with teeth. He's been getting sneaky about that lately - he starts to take the treat with his lips, and then grabs it with his teeth, so I don't have a change to just close my hand and take it way because he's already got it (and my thumb yesterday and that hurt!). After a few light flicks on his nose for taking it with his teeth, he's back to being a bit more careful when he takes his treat. Again, it's one of those things where you want a message to be communicated clearly and immediately, and sometimes an uncomfortable reaction from you is necessary, especailly when working with a 1,000 lb animal that could kill you in a heartbeat. I've got a husband to return home to, and the bottom line is that he expects me to come home in the same condition as when I left.


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## jaydee

David Archer used a sort of CT with a negative type of reinforcement in his last video - working with a warmblood that gets aggressive and kicks out
It did seem to have the right effect on the horse but I'm not sure that it couldn't go badly in inexperienced hands
I'm posting links to both videos of the horse so you can see its bad behavior the first time he evaluates it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpb9zNSAzt0&feature=c4-overview&list=UULTzlnO_HjfQNwzoeivpzQQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8zyweEwdnw


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## PunksTank

jaydee said:


> David Archer used a sort of CT with a negative type of reinforcement in his last video - working with a warmblood that gets aggressive and kicks out
> It did seem to have the right effect on the horse but I'm not sure that it couldn't go badly in inexperienced hands
> I'm posting links to both videos of the horse so you can see its bad behavior the first time he evaluates it
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpb9zNSAzt0&feature=c4-overview&list=UULTzlnO_HjfQNwzoeivpzQQ
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8zyweEwdnw



Those videos were VERY interesting... I'm still trying to process what I saw. Both froze on me halfway through so I couldn't see all of it and maybe I would have thought better had I seen the ending...

The first one with the bucking horse I saw a LOT of pressure, really fast+furious type pressure. I'm not surprised the horse learned so fast, the +punishment for the wrong thing (trotting) was very aggressive shanks on his face. His punishment for not walking quietly was being chased pretty strongly at his hind end. I'm not sure his Punishment really fit his purpose. He wanted the horse to walk quietly, but he was really amping the horse up with such aggressive pressure. IMO that would gradually desensitize the horse to pressure in general, requiring really harsh pressure to get reactions - if this type of training lasted long enough. This was total -R and +P, he applied strong pressure to ask for something, the reward for the right response was a release of pressure - but the punishment for the wrong response was heavy +Punishment, the sharp shanks on the rope halter. If you notice, the horse made the wrong choice for a good 10 minutes before he even got the point he was supposed to do something else, and he got progressively more wrong before he found right. In the hands of someone less quick on their feet that horse would have easily killed them. I'm going to be honest and say, while that horse was bad and very wound up, I'm pretty surprised he didn't just kill him. I'm pretty surprised he actually stayed on the line instead of just galloping off. Maybe he knew that would just result in more chasing, but he did not look like a happy camper that whole first half. Maybe if I'd seen the end I'd have a different opinion - but this is not my training method of choice.

In the video of the mare I was really saddened. He was connecting the sound of the click to the horse being "attacked". He gave that horse no place to go, but kept hitting her hind end. I think he was trying to make her face him. I think she was suppose to learn to face him at the sound of a click. Maybe she did in the end of the video, I don't know. In this case the click was the 'cue' not a bridge of any sort. But he would repeatedly slap her hindend, when she was already facing him and when she had nowhere to go but into him! Then when she did leap over her water tub into him he got upset with her and got after her more and more. He provided her with no right answer.

If his timing of his click was connected to the release of the pressure, not connected to the pressure itself it may have worked better, making the horse connect the sound of the click with the release of the pressure - thus thinking of the click as a good thing. But in the case the click was a cue and if not obeyed she'd be struck, and in the initial part of the video she wasn't given an option to do the right thing before being struck.

This trainer uses a heavy case of -R and +P, but I didn't see any +R or -P in there. I'm not opposed to -R, or +P in dangerous situations that absolutely need it, but in his case I just feel both were excessive, they had the horses seriously overstimulated and gave the right answer very hard for those two horses.
I just don't think I liked those videos,but perhaps the ending of both would have made me feel differently so I'll reserve judgment. Curious to hear other opinions.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Alexandra Kurland talked about the dilemma of using pressure when you are training in the "poisoned cue" video and she made comments very similar to what Punk and Jilly have said above. The whole question is something I try to keep in mind as I design my training sessions with my horses, and try to see every try and tiniest movement in the right direction. For example, training our 3 yo Millie(we think she is an Appendix) yesterday as I cued her forward, I rewarded her for leaning forward. It was small but moving toward the right answer. She was soon moving forward nicely, but I had to remind myself not to get to eager for progress and get frustrated with her and start adding more pressure. 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this and if you get the chance, watch that video!


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## jaydee

The horse at the end of the video where he's 'assessing' it is very calm and obliging.
Its interesting to see how different people use different approaches so you can see results and then form your own opinions
I thought in both there was a touch of the same methods Clinton uses which for me can be too confrontational for a lot of horses - and hype them up more than the average person can deal with
You have to be very fast in your responses and also present a very strong 'alpha' type personality to be able to stand your ground


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## PunksTank

jaydee said:


> The horse at the end of the video where he's 'assessing' it is very calm and obliging.
> Its interesting to see how different people use different approaches so you can see results and then form your own opinions
> I thought in both there was a touch of the same methods Clinton uses which for me can be too confrontational for a lot of horses - and hype them up more than the average person can deal with
> You have to be very fast in your responses and also present a very strong 'alpha' type personality to be able to stand your ground



I have to agree, both of those horses were pushed all the way to the breaking point before they came back down to any sort of calm. I feel like that was a very stressful situation for everyone involved (even my heart rate was up just watching the videos). 
I prefer to teach rather than dominate. We want our horses to exist in some sort of "calm submission" - but those two things just don't come hand in hand. 
I like to teach a skill, if my horse gets frustrated then the weights on the balance scale are getting tilted in the wrong direction. They need to go back a step and learn more thoroughly the last step before moving on. I've never had to deal with a situation of a horse being dangerous with me (while using CT), because if I see a horse reaching their threshold I back up a step - and build a stronger reinforcement history with the correct answer. When a horse reaches their threshold it won't always present as a horse getting physically tense or agitated, it may present as a horse being unwilling to work. 
I think rather resorting to +P or very strong -R we need to be better teachers. I feel like we need to use our intelligence and understanding of how things learn to better teach our animals, rather than our use of tools to force animals. In both cases the animal does what we want. In the +R case the animal works willingly and eagerly, there's something in it for them. In the -R/+P case they do it because they have to, but are usually working in a state of frustration or agitation, not as willingly. 
I don't need to dominate my horses, they already do what I want without any sort of physical altercation.

In fact if you look at my video I posted earlier with Tank, I am using a mild amount of -R with the use of a swinging rope to get her to move out and around (and you can see I can use just the same mild amount of 'pressure' of the swinging rope, to get any gate I want with verbal cue - I never have to increase the pressure to get more out of her, she increases her own criteria). But she was also being guided where I pointed with my hand. She got +R when she stepped over a pole (in this first lesson I didn't care which gait or how well she stepped over it, she just needed to go over). Once she got the situation and what was expected of her I should have left on the great note, I decided to push it and work in the other direction too. The change of direction confused her (like I said in that video this was her first time doing any work in this paddock, and her first time with poles - so there was a lot of new stuff for her). She got frustrated and stormed off. I had 2 choices right then +P or -P. I could have chased her around the paddock wildly until she realized that leaving me results in lots of hard work - this probably would have resulted in a much less willing partner, it would have worked her up far beyond her threshold, and would have taken away her ability to choose the right answer, because there is no choice anymore. So I chose -P, I stood still and waited, her leaving me resulted in not getting anything! She knew immediately that she could leave but leaving earns her nothing, coming back earns her +R and more work, but the work is coupled with +R, so she wants it. You'll notice in the video she wasn't gone more than a few solid seconds before she was back at my side ready and eager to do the right thing. She carried on the rest of the session doing the right thing. The whole session was a total of 10 minutes but she learned to lunge in her new paddock (at liberty) over ground poles and at different gates and in different directions. I didn't need to use any sort of force or aggression.

Here it is: 





So now I'm watching an analyzing my own video, I am using both +R and +P, but my +P is done through +R xD for example, at about 2:10 Tank makes the wrong decision to go around the pole rather than over, I asked her to trot (with only a verbal cue) I used it to say "if you don't want to go over you have to work harder" but her trot is a heavily reinforced skill while lunging, so while it was a +P of "work harder for being wrong" it was also a skill she really knows how to do well and rather than her resenting it as having to work harder, it gave her confidence because she made a "Right" choice. She gets frustrated if she makes the wrong choice too many times (constantly missing the pole and not getting her reward) so if I give her something she does know how to do, while she doesn't need to be rewarded for it it brought her mind back to "oh ok, I know how to do that, let me try one more way to see if this works" I just used trotting because it kept us moving forward.


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## Saddlebag

Punk, as I watch you I'd like to put hobbles on your ankles to keep you from moving. Lol. To start, you clicked as you both stopped and she entered your space. What did you do? You backed up. Look at the video and see how many times you take at least half a step backward. That makes her the dominant one. Try not talking to her. And hold your treat hand to the side so she has to turn her head away to get it. She's a pretty big horse is she should suddenly decide to mug you for a treat.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag said:


> Punk, as I watch you I'd like to put hobbles on your ankles to keep you from moving. Lol. To start, you clicked as you both stopped and she entered your space. What did you do? You backed up. Look at the video and see how many times you take at least half a step backward. That makes her the dominant one. Try not talking to her. And hold your treat hand to the side so she has to turn her head away to get it. She's a pretty big horse is she should suddenly decide to mug you for a treat.


You're absolutely right - as I watched the video I saw the same thing, I moved way too much!! I'm not concerned with her thinking she's dominant, she always looks away for her food, but you're right, I'm moving way too darn much! I think in the beginning I found it easier to guide her by walking the inner circle, but when she got confused with the change of directions, so did I and I couldn't figure out where to put my body!
Often though, when I backed up when I gave her the food it wasn't 'backing out of her space'. After she got her food I would back up and line myself up with her drive-line to move her forward again, this is the 'cue' I use to get her to move out while lunging at liberty. But I could have moved her over and forward a little so that I would be at her drive-line. 

But I still think you're very focused on "who's dominant", I'm not a horse, she doesn't think I'm a horse. While I try to use body language to make what I want more clear, I don't fool myself into thinking that if I act like a horse she'll obey me. She doesn't do what I ask because I'm dominant and she's submissive, she doesn't do it for fear of what might happen if she doesn't. She does what I want because there's something in it for her and because not doing what I want earns her nothing. I use +R and -P, in those cases it doesn't matter who's dominant or subordinate. She can trample me into the mud if she felt the need, but she won't be getting anything at all she wants out of it.


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## Saddlebag

Get a disposable paper plate and stand on that. Ask you horse to do what you are working on but keep your feet on the plate. It will really make you think about your tactics. Her respect space should be at least longer than your arm so that when you offer a treat you have to bend a little to reach her nose. Have her walk a part circle, change hands with your tools, then have her go in the opposite direction. Keep those feet on the plate. It will start to make more sense to her. Don't ct but just work her back and forth at the walk. ct at this time will be a distraction. Keep her focused on reversing direction. Once it's going fairly smoothly, bump the halter a little with the rope to indicate stop. Then you can approach her and offer a treat.


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## jillybean19

OK, I've been waiting to comment to see how this played out, but I gotta step in here and make some clear distinctions about what I think. First, for once, I actually agreed with Saddlebag (for a moment). I do see a horse entering your space as a respect and dominance issue. Normally, I wouldn't resort to "dominancy-based" training, except when it leads to safetey concerns as I've been mentioning lately. Flash is not pushy, but he hasn't learned that he is never, under any circumstances, allowed in my bubble. This is not a game. So this is where I use a more pressure/dominance approach to teach a lesson. She's in your space and needs to get out - just like taking away the treat is a punishment that teaches Tank that she will not get the treat for mouthy/pushy behavior, I think you might need to assert yourself as well. When it comes down to it, horses understand what is natrual to them - and by allowing her in your space and not asserting yourself, she's learning that it is ok to be in there. Another reason I would use a dominant reaction in this case is because it sends an immediate message that "This is NOT ok", wereas a calm, patient reaction with CT would communicate that is IS ok to be in your space, but you just won't earn a treat. We WANT our horses to feel ok experimenting with different behaviors to figure out which behavior is correct - but they can't do it in our space under any circumstance.

However, when he DOES respond correctly to my "get out of my space" cue (and yes, it IS a cue, but one he should avoid having to get!), I click and treat. Why? Because he won't have any idea what I want if I don't. He understands and expects that when he does something right, he will hear the click. In fact, he understands this so well that he doesn't even need a treat to understand that what he did was what I wanted. Granted, treating after the click is what keeps his motivation up, but the communication is not the treat - it's the click. So, if I were to do what Saddlebag just suggested and just try to teach something without the clicker period, Flash would get incredibly frustrated because, even though he's doing the right thing, he doesn't know it. Just the release of pressure is not clear to him and I don't believe it's something that's innately clear to any horse, which is why I chose to do CT in the first place. Sure, horses learn to work for the release of pressure, but it's not exactly a consistent and concrete signal (and don't try to tell me you've never accidentally released pressure or kept pressure on when you shouldn't have). The clicker is a concrete signal that takes all the guessing out of it - and I rarely, if ever, give an incorrect signal with my clicker. 

So, in sum, dominance and pressure has a place, especially when it comes to safetey. But it's not about working out of fear, but rather respect. It's like the difference between when parents tell their children not to play near the canal and have a calm discussion about it, but then take off screaming when they see their child about to fall in. That is not the time for a calm reaction - that kid needs to know to get away from the canal NOW. Just like Flash needs to know to get out of my space NOW, and that he'd better not get in there again. However, once he is back out of my space, he's got to know he did something correct, so I click and treat.


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## jillybean19

(I should also rephrase my final analogy - it's like when a parent with good self-control yells to get their child's attention NOW and make sure they respond immediately. It's never good to take off wildly screaming with a child or a horse haha)


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## jillybean19

*As little pressure as is necessary*

So, this whole pressure theme we've been talking about lately has got me thinking about using "as little pressure as is necessary" and evaluating my own training. I think what it comes down to is what IS necessary. I know that most of what I've been doing has been necessary with Flash (though I'm sure I've made mistakes here and there, but nothing irreparable), but how can I justify it as not being too little or too much?

Too much is easy to identify - have I ever jumped to doing something that would force him to respond how I wanted rather than letting him choose? If I'm honest, yes. In fact, I did it yesterday when we were trail riding and I reached for the rein for direct pressure on the bit rather than trusting he would respond to the light pressure of the rein on his neck and from my heel. However, I still didn't have to haul his head over and he responded to a very light tap on the bit, so I don't think that's too terrible (I'm still trying to learn to trust and give the benefit of the doubt!). But I don't think I've ever worked him up and I've definitely never allowed myself to get worked up. Our training sessions are calm, positive, and productive - ahd he's excited about working rather than fearful or weary about what I'm going to do next. He's willing to try things on his own and eager to figure out what I'm asking. And *I always ask, never demand. I have always given him the choice to listen. *So too much pressure? No, I think I'm doing pretty good when it comes to that.

So what about giving too little pressure? I have to consider what we've achieved - and we've achieved a LOT. So apparently I'm using enough pressure, right? Well, at least to achieve our goals. At this point, I'm pretty excited to show off my very well trained horse and brag about CT when people ask me how I managed to get him so calm and obedient as well as quite skilled at doing things like backing stopping, and sidepassing without using any pressure on the bit (and oftentimes not using the bridle at all). All of this was done using primarily shaping, though also applying some pressure to clarify the cue (like minimal pressure on his nose/chest to ask him to back up on the ground), but never anything forceful. He willingly chose to do all of these things, and then continued to do them better and better once he figured out what I wanted. Thus, I have a horse that moves off of minimal pressure because I never gave him (or myself) the opportunity to depend on anything stronger.

So, if I'm achieving my goals, can't I conclude, then, that we're doing great and I'm using just the right amount of pressure? Well, not quite. _While I know that Flash WILL do anything I ask him to, I can't trust that he WON'T do certain things. _ For instance, I know that he WILL free longe with me, but I can't trust that he WON'T kick if he gets annoyed with me asking him to move faster. I know that he WILL back up when asked, but I can't trust that he WON'T get in my space in the first place. He's got to learn that there are certain things he's not allowed to do, ever. This is where I believe I have used too little pressure. To quote myself above: *"I always ask, never demand. I have always given him the choice to listen." * There comes a time where there is not a choice. For instance, there is not a choice to kick at anyone in any circumstance. There is not a choice to crowd me. There is not a choice to nip or bite. This is when simply ignoring a bad behavior and waiting to reward a good one is not sufficient - it needs to be clearly communicated that this is not ok. This is where I believe a good smack or something similar is necessary to communicate "NO" (But a +R is still appropriate to communicate "yes").* I'm not asking for respect at this point - I'm demanding it, and rightfully so*. I believe this is still as little as necessary because it provides needed, clear communication, especially because I do not go above and beyond what is necessary to get the reaction I need. _Once he responds correctly, there is no point in escalating the situation to "teach a lesson" - the lesson has been learned, and to do so would take the emphasis off of the lesson and transition into fear and distress, both of which are counterproductive._ Again, the key is *as little pressure as is necessary*.


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## PunksTank

I think I should clarify a few things too - I'm not opposed to pressure as a whole, as those are the cues most riders use to ride, so that's what my horses should understand. I also want them to respond appropriately to unexpected pressure (like when I drop the pitchfork and the handle falls and hits them). I don't want that to cause a panic because they've never been 'hit' before. But I think using too much pressure (to the point where they no longer have an honest choice) and C+Ting for the response can really sour the C+T. So I would try to make sure that sort of situation is only reserved for true emergencies.

I'd also like to mention about me and Tank, I was definitely moving way too much! And backing up a lot!! I want to slap myself  
But if you look at the video I didn't see any times she was more in my space than I was comfortable with, maybe my bubble is smaller than others? But each time I had to reach my hand out to her and she had to turn to reach my hand. I'm still working on really enforcing that with myself always feeding far away, it's my own habit that I am working on. But as I watch the video I don't actually see Tank entering my space to get the treat I see myself stepping into hers to give her the treat. So I really do need to work on feeding further away from me. But Tank is always stopped steps away from me and I walk up a step or two to feed her.
Also, like I said, this was her first time lunging in this paddock and the first time with ground poles. When I typically lunge her I walk a small inner circle and she lunges outside, so I'm never still, I do this because I don't always lunge her in perfect circles, sometimes we go up and down the long side of the paddock and make circles at the other end. I do this so I'm able to keep her going straight or round with just my body (and rope) language. But in this video I was definitely unsure of where to keep myself, I found staying closer to her (making my inner circle larger) but when she got confused I wouldn't know where to put myself so I kept fidgeting and backing up. It's been too hot to do any practice on her lunging lately so I'm eager to get back to it and work out my issues. 

I think that with CT comes respect and dominance, we are controlling their life sustaining food, so long as the rules are followed and reinforced - punishment shouldn't need to happen.


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## jillybean19

I have to admit, I haven't actually been watching any videos due to an extremely slow internet connection and so have been going off the comments of others. Clearly, there are some slight differences in how each of us approaches different situations. I just know that, while I wasn't uncomfortable or unsafe with Flash in my space, he got a little too comfortable being in it, too. Each horse is different, but I could tell this was leading to a little too much flexibility in where I allowed him to be and contributed to some potentially dangerous attitudes and behaviors, so I decided to address it before something did. I don't necessarily think I'm poisioning a cue as I'm not training the same behavior over and over again, but rather reacting to a behavior once and then clicking to say "yes, that's what I wanted, you can stop moving away now." It's worked very well and effictively, usually only taking once or twice to nip the behavior in the bud. For instance, Flash used to come in my space when I'm talking to someone and he's loose. During one conversation, I tried asking him to back up, but this just resulted in him thinking we were playing the "back up, come here, and back up again" game or just simply backing everwhere. So, I tried chasing him off with a few smacks to say "get out of my space!", and clicked once he was a safe distance away. If he started coming in again, I chased him out (and then clicked), and in no time he learned where the invisible line was not to cross. Now, if Flash starts moving in, I just have to turn and look at him with a little hand wave to say "no, you stay over there right now" and he backs off.


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## Saddlebag

When you step up to Tank to treat you have narrowed the gap. Now where do your feet go when you ask her to move again? To get Tank to change direction without your feet moving, bend at the hips a bit, and look at her inside hip. Because she is moving forward, she should swing that hip away and this is when you straighten up, quickly change hands and point and ask with the whip. You may need to direct the whip toward her head to block her from coming in to you. The pattern you are trying to achieve is long figure eights.


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## jillybean19

Saddlebag - though I'm really not sure on how that's supposed to be helping Punks or Tank, the "figure 8" suggestion is something I need to work on because, while Flash is listening to each of my cues in isolation, he sometimes guesses at what my next cue is going to be and starts walking in the wrong direction. He always defaults to do counter-clockwise circles and it's difficult to get him going the other way because he's confused. We'll work on that (though I will be dilligently clicking and treating each time he turns the correct direction to reinforce this).


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## jillybean19

*Taking a break*

Today, I packed up Flash into a nice, big rig and waved goodbye as he left for Las Vegas. I won't get to see him for two weeks! He was a happy camper, though, as he was given plenty of food for the trip and pretty much inhaled it before they even left (the shipper started calling him "Hoover", which I can't object to because it's pretty fitting for him). So, we'll be taking a break from training until mid August. My heart is breaking and I'm holding my breath until I get to see my baby again! Just a little more than two weeks....


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## Saddlebag

Jillybean, set up two markers spaced about 15' apart and see if that helps with the figure eights. You will have to figure out where to stand so you don't run out of lead.


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## PunksTank

Saddlebag, again I appreciate the suggestions, but I dont think you're reading my entire posts (I know they can get long).
Tank knows how to lunge, she knows the verbal cue for "walk", "trot", and "whoa" and follows my bisual cues for whether to turn around and lunge the circle or to keep going straight down the long side of the ring. She does this all at liberty so I have no lunge line on her. She knkws very well how to change direction currently I only do it from coming to a halt, having her come into the middle and start again. To do this I step back toward her driveline, hold the rope hand towards her hip meaning "move away" and my other hand pointing in the direction I want her to go in. We've just begun working on changes of direction without stopping. 
So I have a pretty solid cue for changing directions, she listens well using only CT and I dont need any more pressure than what I described (so no I wont be tugging on the line). The only reason she was confused In the video is because (like I said) she was in a new paddock and was just learning about ground poles. Adding those two new variables confused her at first, but she quickly got over it.


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## Twiliath

Mixing +R with +P

First off, I admit to not reading this whole thread of 15 pages of comments (now 28) regarding operant conditioning (clicker training) with horses. However, I was alerted to the recent discussion of mixing +P (added punishment) to +R (added reinforcement). Not to mince words, but that is crazy making!

When I first started clicker training my horse (for six years now), I was lucky to find a well-trained, very experienced horse clicker trainer not too far away. This person has worked closely with Alexandra Kurland for over 12 years. 

I started my horse behind protected contact and sometimes go back to that for a refresher. In fact, whenever I want to enter his stall, I wait for him to back (I’ve shaped the back up) and treat at arm’s length over the stall gate.

The mugging problem: Many horses new to the new paradigm of CT, often mug and even scrape the palm of your hand with their teeth. The mugging needs to be addressed through working in protected contact and making sure that your treat delivery mechanics are clean, crisp, and clear – always separate to three events of clicking, reaching for the food, and delivering the food. Many of us, even experienced clicker trainers, get sloppy.

Early in our CT relationship, my horse got more than muggy, he bit. He bit badly. I have the scars to prove it. It was very frustrating! And painful! Of course, I lashed out and slapped him for it. It did not feel good to me emotionally. And here are the points to consider when doing that.

First, punishment, by definition, reduces or eliminates unwanted behavior. The slap or the punch in the nose might work for that particular training session, but if the behavior continues during the next training sessions, then, by definition, the slap or the punch was not actually punishment. “What!?”, you say. “It wasn’t punishment? But I hit him! Wasn’t that punishment?” No, not by definition. Since the behavior continues, it wasn’t punishment.

So what to do? Hit harder? Longer? With something heavier? With a whip? Will that work? It might. But then what’s the fallout? What will happen in your horse’s mind when you start punishing him like that? Will he match your aggression with some of his? If he does match your aggression with his aggression, what you are you going to do next? Get even more violent? “Art ends where violence begins.” Sorry to say it, but the violence began when you hit back.

If you’re not allowed to hit back, then what do you do? What did I do when my horse bit me and I lashed out and hit him? The slap didn’t work. It might have suppressed the biting for that session, but, in the long term, it didn’t help at all. What helped, was my taking a long, hard, soul-searching look at how I trained. Were my food delivery mechanics up to snuff? How about my Rate of Reinforcement (RoR)? Was it high enough to keep him engaged? Was I training in a way to avoid frustration – both for me and for him? I guarantee you, that if you’re frustrated, so is your horse (or dog, bird, whatever).

What’s causing the frustration? Again, look at your mechanics of click timing, RoR, and food delivery mechanics. According to Bob Bailey (the last living direct connection to B.F. Skinner and the Brelands), 80% of trainer problems are caused by 1) Timing, 2), Criteria, and 3) Rate. 

(If you don’t know who B.F. Skinner, Keller Breland, and Marian Breland Bailey and Bob Bailey are, then you need to do some research. These are the people who discovered and refined the use of operant conditioning.)

A good training plan should include identifying:



Timing: What to reinforce. Is your click well timed? Or are you off by just a bit, either too early or too late?
Criteria: What to reinforce and for how long to reinforce at one criterion before moving on. Are you clicking for only one criterion per session or are you all over the map? Did you raise your criteria too high too fast?
Rate of Reinforcement: Making it worthwhile for the animal. This is how fast you’re reinforcing behavior. A good rule of thumb is to try to deliver 10 treats in 90 seconds or less.
 
To these I would add: mechanics and planning.



Mechanics – I’ve already talked about those.
Planning – have you sat down and really spent some time thinking about what behavior you want and how you plan to get it?
 
If you are not getting the behavior you DO want or you are getting behavior you DON’T want, then it is up to you, as the “smarter” half in this equation, to take a look at your training skills.

Now back to specifically addressing mixing +R and +P. First off, you’re not really mixing them – you’re instantaneously switching from one to the other. And, in the process, totally confusing your horse. Are you to be trusted as his new, reliable, consistent best friend? Or are you some crazy being that could go off at any time? Which way would you like to be treated? Imagine having someone offer you a cookie and then punching you in the nose or slapping your face? Then doing it again and again. At what point would you decide that the cookie was not worth the effort or that you couldn’t trust that it was really going to be given to you? When would you shut down and walk away?

Peggy Hogan has many tips, especially safety and food delivery, available for download both in PDF and as a video on her website, www.thebestwhisperisaclick.com, and she has a Facebook page where many thought-provoking discussions and education take place – Clicker Training Horses group page.

Alexandra Kurland (www.theclickercenter.com) has several books and DVDs for sale that cover all the basic topics, especially safety and food delivery. If you buy her “Riding with the Clicker” book, you can join her Yahoo! Discussion group, The Click That Teaches.

Shawna Corrin Karrasch also has info available on her site, Shawna Karrasch and On Target Training | Positive Reinforcement Clicker Training | Horse Training.

If you’re going to delve into CT for horses, please read up on it and research it so that you know what it’s all about and how to use it correctly.

Learn the science. Do the research.

I recently finished working in two five-day chicken workshops with Bob Bailey (see above).

Bob Bailey: "We believe trainers should invest time knowing their technology. We believe trainers should invest time developing skill at the training craft. We believe in what they are doing and how they are doing it!"

"We believe animal training should be: 

“A science,
“A technology,
“A craft,
“An art.

“The better a trainer understands and practices science and technology, the better can be the trainer's art and craft.

“Animal training is a mechanical skill. Practice the mechanics without the animal first. Then introduce the animal and practice the mechanics some more.

“Animal training demands learning and applying information.

"OC (Operant Conditioning) is not about:

“Developing relationships or heirarches (please, no alpha rolling the chickens).

“Thoughts (Vulcan mind melds are not permitted.)

“Emotions (Emoting with a chicken will not get you behavior.)

“Tricks or gimmicks (We get behavior the hard way, we earn it!)”

If the animal gets frustrated, you've probably raised the criteria too high or lowered the rate of reinforcement too low.

One needs to completely understand each of the four quadrants AND know exactly how to use each one effectively, efficiently, AND HUMANELY! Bopping a horse on the nose is not humane! +P is not humane! 

Bob Bailey, whom I just spent 10 days with, learning as much as I could, who spent 40 years training over 140 species of animals, did use all four quadrants, including +P, but he did THAT maybe a handful of times and always reluctantly.

If you have to resort to +P AT ALL, there is something wrong!

If you get frustrated, think about what the animal is feeling. If you're frustrated, I guarantee that the animal is too. Take a break. Think more. Be more creative. Write down a plan. A training plan includes identifying: Timing (when to reinforce), Criteria (what to reinforce and for how long to reinforce at one criteria before moving on), and Rate of Reinforcement (making it worthwhile for the animal).

There is a whole body of scientific research and data and experience in operant conditioning. It's simple in concept, but is complex in practice. Simplify whenever possible. Split as much as possible and then split some more.


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## jaydee

^^^Great post
Back to lunge work and a bit off track re. CT
I don't go with the whole horse sees me as a horse thing as they aren't stupid they have eyes and senses - they know I'm not one of them - even though I do smell like one a lot of the time
I am human. I am weaker, I cant run as fast or kick and bite as hard therefore I have to use my brain to outsmart them - and the best way to do that is that they learn to rely on me, respect me. trust me, want to be around me and make me happy.
I want a willing partner, not a bullied into submission one.
I don't worry at all about standing on one spot when I'm lunging (with or without the rein) As long as body language isn't too noisy, confusing or threatening then where you are shouldn't make that much difference once they've learnt to understand the verbal cues
I often walk or jog around when I have a horse cantering on the lunge or jumping poles on the lunge and then I might go back to the centre - they don't see it as some sign of me suddenly lacking dominance because its not a power battle
Hempfling works in much the same way and yet still has great respect from his horses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppmnDUQDMis


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## jillybean19

Lots of stuff to think about, and thank you for the incredibly detailed post. I still stand behind what I've said before, though, as it works for us. It's hard to explain what I do, but Flash is rarely, if ever, confused. And I agree with Jaydee - I don't think my horse sees me as a horse, but I do believe that there are certain ways that horses communicate and I would be silly not to use those.

What it comes down to is clear communication, and we have that (even on the few occasions when I resort to +P). I do not believe that every +P is harmful. Quite the contrary - there are times when it could be beneficial. It is true that the definition of punishment means that it extinguishes a behavior, and there are some cases where one or two +P has extinguished the behavior for us, and it was a more or less permanent learning experience. I never do anything that takes Flash anywhere near his threshold - he is always in an emotional state where he can focus on the message rather than his own nervousness or uncomfortableness. Even whenever I give him a "smack" on the nose, it's more or less just a tap that wakes him up and let him know I didn't like those teeth taking the treat out of my hand. He's not mouthy (we took care of that a LONG time ago when we first started training), and knows how he's supposed to take the treat, but can get a bit overeager for it sometimes. That tap is just a reminder that he needs to be careful, too. But the bottom line isn't that I'm doing what I _think_ works - it actually _does_ work. I know what works best for my horse, and, if that makes me not "pure" CT, then so be it. I still think CT is more effective than "traditional" training, but also think that other training methods have their merits and that the best results are achieved when you strategically take the good from each method.

I should also note that I do not "combine" or "switch instantaneously" between +P and -R. If there comes a case where +P is necessary (like demanding that Flash get out of my space!), he has adequate time to respond, have a release of +P (i.e. pressure), continue responding correctly, and then get +R. And he licks his lips every time. I'm very clear about what I want. I can see how mixing signals could get confused for other people and their horses, but while I can't necessarily spell out exactly what we do and how it works, I understand operant conditioning, behavior, teaching, learning, and general theory and science well enough to adapt things on the fly and make adjustments when they don't work.

I must be doing something right as I can't remember the last time I had an unsuccessful, frustrating, or confusing training session for either of us. Flash is still as excited as ever to go work and has learned everything within a matter of 2-3 training sessions (broken into 5-10 minute mini-sessions over the course of an hour ish). And he respons with little to no pressure for all of our cues. What I do might not work for everyone, especially since I can't accurately describe exactly what we're doing over a forum anyway. But it works, and darn well I must say.


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## my2geldings

I definitely think clicker training holds a purpose and the right time and place for it. I had trained a few years ago my gelding to fetch and do the spanish walk. All done through clicker training.


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## PunksTank

My2Geldings, that's fantastic!CT can be great for fun tricks like that, have you ever tried using it for more regular training things too? It looks like you do dressage (based on you profile pic) have you ever thought of using it to help with some of their skills with that? I think Shawna was mentioning at her clinic she had great success teaching horses those sorts of skills with CT - I'm not really a dressage person so wouldn't know how to go about it, but I figure with CT you can teach anything!


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## jaydee

jillybean - thoughts are with you while your lovely horse is on his travels. I think seeing 3 of mine off at midnight on their epic journey from the UK to the US will always be one of my most traumatic moments and then not seeing them for a month ....................
On the punishment thing - it really does depend a lot on the horse. Mostly I can just growl or give a sharp 'oy' and that works. Honey is the most challenging and has to have a slap occasionally or she'd run all over you and not notice
The man I worked for years ago had a 'defensive mare' that had been abused, no way could you ever have hit that horse, she'd have killed you for sure. He literally cured her with love - and I would defy anyone who would say it couldn't be done as she went from evil to the sweetest thing on 4 legs.


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## jillybean19

jaydee said:


> jillybean - thoughts are with you while your lovely horse is on his travels. I think seeing 3 of mine off at midnight on their epic journey from the UK to the US will always be one of my most traumatic moments and then not seeing them for a month ....................
> On the punishment thing - it really does depend a lot on the horse. Mostly I can just growl or give a sharp 'oy' and that works. Honey is the most challenging and has to have a slap occasionally or she'd run all over you and not notice
> The man I worked for years ago had a 'defensive mare' that had been abused, no way could you ever have hit that horse, she'd have killed you for sure. He literally cured her with love - and I would defy anyone who would say it couldn't be done as she went from evil to the sweetest thing on 4 legs.


Oh my goodness, at least my boy is only traveling one state away! (12 days until I see him again!) Though, there is a possibility I may be purchasing my future Tevis mount a little sooner than expected.... This little guy came up that has all the potential in the world and I'm being offered him for a great price because she wants to see him go to a great him with a job to do. Cross your fingers that the finances and husband's say in this purchase goes well! (he's considering it!)

I totally agree with you about it depending on the horse. Flash is *generally* very polite, but that's because he's very food motivated and he knows what he has to do to get his click and treat. However, he will test the boundaries occasionally just to see what he'll get, and it didn't hep that I failed to set clear and obvious ones. I'm clarifying and enforcing them consistently now, and once he knew what the boundary was and that I wasn't going to yeild them, he returned to being the polite, obedient boy that I know he is (better, actually, since he's learned something new!).


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## jaydee

Good luck with getting the new horse.


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## PunksTank

I've been working on some basic despooking things with Tank, I tied a bunch of empty plastic bottles to hay rope and jiggled it all about. I clicked and treated for calm curiosity. Within 4 minutes I was able to toss the plastic bottles up over her back and jiggling it on both sides of her. 
I also worked with a tarp for the first time today, again rewarding calm curiosity. She did exceptionally well with the tarp on the ground, flapping it all around, then when it was small she could have it on her back. She walked all over it, and stood calmly while it blew around and was on her back. I'm going to work on it some more later, she was great but had a few times where she trotted off (she was at liberty) but always immediately came back.

How is everyone else doing?


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## PunksTank

So I've been working some more with all 3 of my own ponies! It's going great! 
With Revel I'm just working on fun stuff he enjoys doing, he loves puzzles so I try to make things challenging for him. But this week I just rode him  We went for a good gallop around the hay field 











With my pony, Punk'n we've been working on his unmounted agility. He's getting the hang of jumping, learning he only gets his click if he actually jumps it instead of just trotting over it  I think I need to make the jumps bigger, we made the originally for our minis. 












And with Tank we're still working on despooking things, coming up with new things to get her used to, she's doing very well. If she actually reaches the point of spooking she only jumps a few steps away and is immediately back on the target. Each time she's staying closer and closer, but most often she's not spooking anymore!! She's jumped in confidence - I'm so proud of her. Her over all confidence is growing. So now we're working on her steering tackless, usually I use at least her halter with reins, but I wanted to see where my gaps were and got on tackless. My friend was nearby with a target in case she needed some 'hints' if she got stuck. She did exceptionally well! Here's us riding over a tarp


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## jaydee

That last pic is amazing - you've made so much progress with her. You must feel so proud - and you should too


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## PunksTank

Thanks Jaydee! I am so proud of her! She's come so far, from being the timid horse who couldn't leave her own paddock, terrified of every object - all the way to standing calmly on a tarp without any tack or force!! In fact now she loves her tarp because it's easier to get the food she drops off that then from between the grass. 
We've been going for walks at liberty with just the target around the property and a bit onto the neighbors farms (in their plowed paths for horses) she still spooks easily out in the world, but now she'll usually jump and run a few steps off then come right back to the target. Each day she stays closer and closer to the target. 


How is everyone else doing with their horses?


I've noticed something else wonderful about CT - the lessons REALLY carry over, treats or not. I was working with Tank on staying still no matter where I go, even when slightly concerning things are happening (like a tarp being tossed on her back). She did well with all my silly things. Later that week I went to give her another bath (the first one was like ring around the rosey with me chasing her all around! I only got her front end washed that time) but this time she was like a stone! She just remembered the last few lessons. I didn't have to use CT to make her stay still for the bath, she just did! (of course I let her graze after which was nice )


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## Foxtail Ranch

Wow, punk, you and tank look quite good together! Looks like fun!

I wish I could report progress but all I can manage is maintenance right now since this is my month of crazy long work hours. But, Roudy is fetching his dish for attention, Ella will follow me everywhere for one CT, and April is softening her head to contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

My son is home from college so he takes Honey over, she's back in a hackamore - she was getting herself so stressed and hyped again, really jumpy when ridden, he decided to just give the hack a try as run out of ideas and instant change of horse. I don't know how to explain it, her mouth and teeth are fine and she's never ridden with hard hands
Looby finally got her head around collected canter, I made the mistake of giving her loads of praise and now she wants to canter all the time!!! She just loves being a 'good girl' - I don't think she ever knew how it felt before.


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## Foxtail Ranch

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Jaydee, I think horses have preferences for where pressure is applied. It's great you know what Honey prefers! And Looby sounds like such a sweetie pie!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Thank you. Its odd with Honey as she was ridden in a bit for years with no trouble. My husband wonders if maybe her mouth has changed over time and she somehow feels uncomfortable. One of those mystery things
Looby was such a sad sorry little horse when she came here, everything was a either a battle or her retreating like she was terrified of being hit. She didn't want to have anything to do with us on a social level. There is still a bit of the old her in there at times
I think my best moment with her was when I was standing in her stable looking out across the field and felt something by me and realized she'd crept up behind me and had put her face really gently against my shoulder. I just couldn't help crying!!!


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## Zexious

I'm new to this thread, and really don't know anything about Clicker training, but I just wanted to say how awesome your pics are, Punk! Awesome work <3


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## PunksTank

Jaydee thats beautiful! Have you tried any CAT with her? I'm still learning about this but finding it to really help with horses like that. 
Glad to hear things are going well for everyone. I get the lack of time thing x.x work and planning a wedding I think im gonna explode!!

Zexious- thanks!! Its been a long road but we're getting there  the first few pages of this thread is the science and mechanics of how and why CT works if your interested in learning


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## Foxtail Ranch

Punk, what is CAT?

Jaydee, Looby is the kind of horse that gets my heart! My black mare Ella did not like contact of any kind when we got her. She shoved me down and another horse stepped on my chest and cracked my 4 of my ribs March of 2012. She is very well trained, smart and very well bred, but she was an awful mess. She just hated work, and was sour on every aspect of human. 

I started CT July 2o12 and she has completely transformed. She nickers when I am near and enjoys my touch. She follows me everywhere! Her eyes are soft and dopey when she sees me. She used to be unresponsive to leg cues. Now she tries to anticipate my commands. She is such a sweetie who used to be a holy terror. 

I think some horses need a different way of communicating besides pressure-release and punishment. If you have a horse that is soured, and you use the same old stuff, you are just going to get more of the same. Ella loves rewards. It makes her soft and squishy instead of her usual tough and angry. 

And for Honey, I agree with you that a horse can change as they age. God knows I have! I wish I could I could see them. Are you as tech savvy as Punk and able to upload video?


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## Zexious

I'll def have to take a look!


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## jaydee

I was going to ask what CAT was!!!
Please tell Punks
Its really rewarding to see a horse that's built up a distrust of humans turn around - but makes you wonder what ever happened to them to get like it
I don't have any recent videos of Looby working - I should get DH to do some really but he always seems to manage to miss the good bits and get the bad ones!!!
These are a few of the tarp ones we did - none of them had ever seen a tarp before we took the challenge and they were maybe a bit naughty to ask for their treat!!!
My very elegantly dressed husband performed very well - the horses had just all been washed hence the wet look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RLGc_lEf3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-PcL9vrNWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svdwzE66hfg


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## PunksTank

Jaydee those videos are great - drooling over your Clyde :3

I can't agree more! Watching a horse completely change their mind about something, especially people, is just wonderful 
I'm still new to CAT, but it's not terribly complicated and used fairly often (without the name attached). It's called "constructional approach training", it's used through -R, it helps for horses who are just too afraid of people to be able to even engage in CT or any other training process. If the pressure of a person's presence is enough concern a horse, CAT is a great process to help them reach the point of wanting to be with a person. It's essentially Pressure and Release, you apply the pressure of your own presence - right up to the point where the horse notices but isn't yet terrified (if you pass that threshold you're only going to make them more sure to be afraid), when the horse notices you, if they respond calmly, retreat a few steps. This retreat is the 'release' of pressure for the horse. You repeat this getting slowly closer until the horse is comfortable in your presence as a whole, usually at some point their curiosity will win out and you've proven yourself not a predator, so they try to check you out a little. 
Here's a good video explaining a bit about it.


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## PunksTank

I just found this article - I love it! It's exactly how I feel with my horses 

How does my horse feel… | Equine Clicker Conference Online


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## jaydee

What a lovely article - I start to get a bit nervous when people talk about riding with no tack but then she went on with so much good common sense stuff I was won over
I was interested in her bridle comment as we were worried that Honey was associating the bit with work and that meant she wasn't enjoying her work but as she's working so happily in the hackamore I'm relieved to be able to eliminate that.
Willow actually tries to put her own bridle on when you hold it up in front of her and shoves her head into it - usually ending up with the noseband in her mouth as well if you're not careful.
Looby on the other hand when we first got her used to turn her backside to me when I approached with the bridle and then clamp her teeth shut so you couldn't get the bit in which told me she'd hated the way she was being ridden
That's all gone thank goodness.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Update time! 

April (my avatar) and i have been working on standing still and ground tying lately, especially keeping the head forward and down. She had been getting antsy while tacking up and set back with a small rear a few weeks ago. So back to basics.

Wish I had more to report, but school starting has cut into my horse time. How is everyone else doing?


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## jaydee

The weathers not helping me with anything but hopefully the colder nights will see the bugs off
I find it really hard to expect a horse to want to stand and concentrate when they're being eaten alive
Last night we rode in a light drizzle, high humidity and came in with tiny little flies stuck all over us!!!


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## PunksTank

thrilled to see more updates  wish there was more to see - but I've been in the same boat, weather and bugs make this a miserable time of year 
I haven't done much with my horses - just doing more despooking with Tank, she's learning about all sorts of ridiculous things! Most recently power tools and guns! The guns weren't my choice, the neighbor decided he's gonna hunt the geese in his yard, so she's also learning about things falling out of the sky  the first day was rough with that, but she's settling nicely now!


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## BridlesandBowties

Subbing<3


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## PunksTank

Popping in with an update. I've been doing lots of despooking with Tank and seeing some dramatic improvements in the majority of her life. She no longer shifts into her flight mode, where she just can't shift down for hours on end. Now, when something startles her she jumps and settles again. When there's something scary she may hesitate has even begun to investigate it.
She used to be a very "shoot first ask questions later" type of girl - but now she's really starting to ask questions and think about situations rather than just reacting.

I've started taking her for walks around my property every day (those of you who remember, Tank's biggest issue in life is leaving her stall/paddock - she'll freeze and refuse to move). I started the walks just by leading her with the target with the rope loose in my hand or over her neck. Her other issue involved with this is that when she feels pressure she feels trapped and panics - usually resulting in bolting back to her safe spot. So when I had her leading out confidently without any pressure, only following the target - if she spooked she could go away and come back. At first she would bolt all the way back to her paddock or where she last felt safe and I would have to lead her back out on target. Then gradually her spooks got less and less - each time staying closer and closer to the target when she spooks, now it's reached just a stationary jump/tense, then calm again. She stays with me 100% now, even when she's startled.
So now that she's good without pressure - I do hope to ride her out someday, in which case pressure will be used, at least for ridden cues. I can't have her feeling trapped and panicking just because I cued a left turn or asked her to stop if she's concerned about something. So I weaned her off the target and started using the lead rope, if she dragged behind or got ahead or stopped for grass I would apply pressure and bring up the target for her - C+T when she responded to the pressure, with less focus on reaching the target. Now the target is gone and we lead, when I need to apply pressure I C+T to proper responses, including stopping and standing when there's something concerning, backing up and yielding if she gets distracted. I always use non-escalating, light pressure with a C+T for the right response, so it's always her choice to respond correctly - the only response for the wrong choice is a lack of C+T. 
We've progressed very well all around my property to the point she just doesn't care where we go on property any more. 
So yesterday I had a friend with me, so we took Tank and my confident little pony out for a walk around the neighbor's farm and hay field (he mows paths for the horses). Tank was Wonderful! She would eat grass when I stopped, but as soon as I walked again she was back to following before contact was ever made. She was excited, but not afraid, and well behaved the entire walk. We saw the neighbors horses who she announced herself too, but carried on without an issue - she walked out well ahead of the pony who was having trouble getting out of the grass himself  She was polite walking the way back too - without rushing. She was just perfect!


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## jaydee

I want to say how it amazes me that you've made so much progress with her - when in fact I always believed that your method would work - its been worth the extra time its taken you because it was the right path for you both
Now I have to post this cute link to Peggy Hogans mini because it makes me smile!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltvyeS5blPk


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## Tombo8

So enthused by your clicker training. Just started me own thread in member journals
Section about me new journey in clicker training. 
Thanks for sharing


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## PunksTank

Wow I totally forgot about this thread!! Jaydee, thank you so much  You're so sweet!

Tombo so glad to hear you're getting started! Would you mind posting a link to your thread? I'd love to follow your work 


As for me and my monsters, Tank is coming along awesome, I've done everything with her for the past few weeks completely at liberty. I've watched her flourish with her new-found freedom. Now that she's had 100% choice in everything we've done she's continued to please me. I'm not sure if I mentioned before about her fear of my barn aisle - this aisle is very narrow and dark (to tight for her to turn around in) and it has doors which lead to the garage and tack room. She's very afraid of all of these things. We've been working on the barn aisle for months now. We worked on a head down cue and at liberty she'll walk through the very scary barn aisle with her head down and her body relaxed (rather than her usual tense and ready to explode). She leads out through the yard and into her paddock at liberty too (ignoring lots of grass!). We've also been lunging and doing other games at liberty too. Yesterday for the fist time in weeks I put a halter on her and tied her in the barn to groom her (even this I usually do at liberty, but I wanted to work on her tying skills) it seems her time at liberty has made her even better tied. She was a perfect doll!
I also knew that she has spook in her, so I was concerned about what would happen when (not if) she spooks while we're at liberty and there is no fence to control her. Well it happened - I was walking her out her paddock gate - this requires me holding the gate open and pointing so she walks out while I hold the gate, so she has to pass me. She did perfectly and I C+T when I went to treat the gate closed, I misjudged and the gate hit her bum, she jumped a little, but then her foot hit the gate and made a loud Bang - so she jumped again, this time she ran forward about 3 steps - stopped, turned around and came right back to my side. We then went back through the gate both ways and walked in again. It was remarkable how quickly Tank brought herself back down to calm. In the past a small spook like this would have left her panicky and afraid for hours, jumping at the smallest trigger. <3 so proud!

My pony (Punk) is working mostly on stimulus control, learning only to do what I ask, when I ask it - not repeatedly and not frantically. He's coming along very well but he's the one I work with the least 

My Belgian, Revel, is doing amazingly. Being decently trained already I never spent much time with him. I say "Decently" trained, because he was well "broke" to drive in a city, but he was not himself. I gave him his first few months with me off, to regain the 300lbs he needed. He had only been driven in a single joint liverpool bit with the reins on the third shank (serious leverage). I rode him first in a kimberwick and never bothered to do much CT with him - besides some basic ground targeting. Well on the trails he was good enough but I felt like I was driving him, he could only turn full turns, I had no 'subtle' control with him. He also had no brakes >.< He was also pretty unhappy out on the trails, while he enjoyed looking around (an open bridle for the first time), he still was eager to run home and would throw hissyfits when he thought it was time to stop. He was never exceptionally bad, but it was clear he wasn't happy with our situation. I thought things over and bought him an oval link egg-butt snaffle, and a gel pad for our saddle. I also added clicker training to our rides, when he stopped to let someone pat him, when he kept a steady pace without meandering and blocking traffic, when he was quiet when something scary happened (like 4 wild pigs exploding through the woods). Now he is very eager to go on trails, he stands quietly for mounting and walks me up tot he gate so I can open it - he no longer rushes home and loves every minute of our trails. With the new bit he's softer with his turns and seems to have figured out he's not stuck between the shafts, he's also gained some brakes without need for any strong pressure 



How are everyone else's horses doing? I'm eager to catch up with you all!


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## jaydee

Your mare certainly sees you as a leader she can trust to protect her doesn't she?
The weather here has been so much better for riding since the heat and the bugs have gone that I'm afraid the liberty work has suffered - though we're still using C/T for things that for whatever reason they find more challenging
Looby was perfect for her recent shots and blood tests - just one click before he started as she began to tense up a bit but that was enough - such a change from the horse I bought that launched itself into a full scale attack the first time I had her done!!!
Another positive was that Willow stood in the centre aisle completely 'free' while I clipped her whole head this time - this is the horse that when I bought her (age 10) tried to crush me against the stable wall the moment she heard the clippers and threw a really aggressive fit if you even tried to touch her ears
My other 3 stay fairly free of problems - Jazzie still needs a firm hand or she'll push things - but it doesn't need to be done in an aggressive way, Honey needs more work and we've had a few 'there's a monster behind me' episodes recently when she's been led in at night which are all about finding an excuse to get into the barn faster for her feed so I've put an old bridle back on her again as it gives me more power over her - I can't cope with a pulling horse once the ice and snow come. Flo is as she always is and likely always will be - more like a dog than a horse!!!
Off topic but am I right in thinking you had a wedding planned?


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## Foxtail Ranch

Sounds good Punkstank and Jaydee! I wish I could say I have much to report, but I don't. I have been working way too many hours, and taking a class this term. Just barely keeping up with the chores.


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## PunksTank

Jaydee that's awesome!! Sounds like you're having lots of fun with your horses  Do you reserve CT for only resolving problems or do you use it for other things too? (just curious)  
Yup I just got married a month ago  everything went perfect!! It was in Disney world - where I found out many of the Disney horses are Clicker Trained (the ones used for the parades and special events, but not the ones used for the regular things) The trainers from animal kingdom have been working on trying to get more Positive Reinforcement training (like they use for their wild animals) to be used for the horses too 




So today was interesting I am so excited I have to share!
At the rescue I work at the owner has always been accepting of my clicker training some of the horses - and teaching the kids to clicker train their favorites. But she's never really been a fan of what I do. I love her very much, but she's still of the (too common) belief that horses should "just obey", why? "because they should, because they love me, because I'm in charge".
A few months ago we got an emaciated mare and foal - they were put in our 2-stall quarantine barn while they gained weight and the foal was weaned. All went well, except they went relatively unhandled. I had taught the colt the first step of CT, how to take treats politely and I taught him what my smoochy bridge signal means. But at about this point the owner of the barn decided she loved the colt and he was going to be her project. I already have my 3 y/o Gypsy colt, Viking, who's taking me more time than I have at the rescue, so it was fine. But over the past few months the colt Zephyr went pretty much unhandled, getting progressively larger. The owner of the barn is wonderful and has the best intentions, but we've had 2 horses die and another very sick over the past few months and her time has been swallowed up. So the colt just existed in his indoor/outdoor stall.
Well flash forward to today - we need to get the mare and foal into the big barn for the winter. We hoped the colt would follow his mom across the driveway and into the barn, being as he's not halter broke. So we blocked off either end of the driveway, so he couldn't go anywhere if he didn't follow. Well sure enough he followed to the barn door, then doubled back and ran around this new enclosure. He decided it was way nicer staying in the driveway and eating grass. I walked the mare in and out several times with the barn owner trying to herd the colt in. We failed. So we put the mare away and gave up, hoping he'd wander in on his own or go back to his old stall. After a few minutes the BO asked me what CT I had done with him - I told her almost nothing, but if he knew how to target we could have used that. She said, well why not start now?
So I started. In 5 minutes flat I had him targeting and following the target, I jackpotted and left. A while later I came back and we walked into the barn like we were old pros!! He was awesome!!! He figured out the target so fast, he was so eager to please. I love CT!


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## jaydee

I'm finding that I'm using it more now for all sorts of things because its a sort of 'feel good' stimulus
I don't use it in a way that they would only comply if I use it but as part of learning something new as well as a reassuring thing and they don't always get a treat reward - just as they don't get treat rewards for learning things that they've established
The 3 that I keep in the paddock next to the barn come in on their own when I open the gate and know which stable they have to go it Last night Looby had decided to stop and help herself to a bale of hay DH had left at the side and so parked herself in such a way that Willow couldn't get past her to get into her stable and is afraid of Looby so wouldn't push past and I was stuck behind Willow. When I shouted at Looby to walk on she ignored me but when I clicked and told her to walk on she immediately obeyed.


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## quintessence

Hi everyone! I've just joined this forum because of this thread. I have just started CT with my arab mare two days ago and have been looking for somewhere to ask questions that I come up with. I have some experience training my dogs with CT and done some targeting with a previous horse, so its not a new concept.

My mare is 11yo, previously a broodmare (had 2 foals and was a paddock ornament) before I got her last year. I started her under saddle myself earlier this year and I am extremely pleased with her progress.

She's a sensitive mare but we have a great partnership on the ground and under saddle, she now has lovely manners and our training has overcome all but one issue that she came to me with - she dosn't tie solid, so I am teaching her to ground tie and I think CT will help with that as well.

I am most interested in clicker training for tricks, more as a way to keep her interested and spend time with her when I don't have time to ride. Specifically I would like to teach her the Spanish Walk. In four short sessions she is targeting a small orange cone and a piece of pool noodle on a stick (will take several steps or swing her head up, down and too both sides to touch it), and will lift her left front foot on cue (started with a tap to the back of the fetlock but quickly progressed up to behind her elbow where I can cue it from the saddle, I also double cue by lifting with my left leg as I don't want her to start flinging her front legs around while I am on the ground so she gets a double cue for safety reasons).

We also have another 5yo arab mare that I will be starting under saddle for my daughter soon. She has pretty much been unhandled all her life until two months before we got her when she was put in a small pen, she was minimally handled every day but was so stressed being in that environment after running with a herd that she was pretty wild when we got her. She is still very reactive so I will do some CT work with her as well, although for her a treat is releasing pressure not food, so it will be a totally different experience than with my mare.

I now its a quiet time of year, but hope those with experience will frequent this thread again in the new year


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## jaydee

CT is a great training tool with nervous and distrustful horses where more traditional methods have often failed. It was what made me a convert
It will be good to hear and see your progress


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## PunksTank

Excited to see another open mind dig into CT. I started with it for helping a nervous mare - I've found it so valuable it's all I ever use anymore! Every new thing any of my horses have learned, they've learned through CT. Even standing calmly for mounting - where my Belgian liked to take off when you were half on  Or playing fetch to keep them exercised on yucky days. 
A whole world of fun things to do with my horses opened up when I found CT. 

Please keep us posted on how you're doing, what you're working on and if you have any questions.


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## ecasey

I spent maybe 3 hours reading this entire thread! I'm waiting on the arrival of my first horse, and can't wait to try some of these techniques.


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## quintessence

Thanks for the welcome and Happy New Year everyone

My mare is catching on very quickly, at the moment I am doing everything at liberty without even a halter, I think its pretty cool that she will leave her dinner which contains some of the carrot/apple pieces I use as treats to come and play. The reaction from the other horses is so funny - they all stand at the fence line while we play. My daughters pony who knows some tricks and stands there the whole time nodding his head 'Yes'. My gelding stands watchign us twisting his head and neck while pulling all sorts of faces and my daughter mare stands right at the fencline presenting us with her bottom to show her disapproval at not being involved.

I am teaching Tessa the Spanish Walk from the side (standing at her girth). I use two cues - lifting my leg up and touching the back of her leg, and yesterday I introduced the verbal 'step' cue. I don't want her flinging her front legs around from an accidental cue or whenever she wants, so using multiple cues seems a good way of teaching this, and she has had no problems accepting multiple cues as most other things we do on the ground and under saddle use physical and verbal cues.

Yesterday she offered the first beautiful lift and point with her left leg rather than just raising the leg up. We are not as far along with the right leg as I havn't spent as much time on it, although she understood the cues to lift the right foot from the first try so it won't be long.

I've been watching as many youtube videos as I can on teaching Spanish Walk and many of them seem to encourage pawing to the point it becomes striking behaviour. I don't want to do this as its a dangerous habit that I won't tolerate and actively discourage in my horses.

Although Tessa hasn't tried to paw or strike the ground, can anyone clarify the steps I would take to discourage pawing fi she tries to? It seems counter-intuitive to me to allow the horse to energetically paw the ground, then try and restrict to a single well controlled lift and step. I don't mind if it will take longer to teach in a more controlled manner. 

I'm presuming only rewarding a single leg point and touching the ground once only and ignoring multiple strikes to the ground would be the way to go? Or would it be more effective to teach her to target something in front of her with her hoof or place her foot on a mat or pedestal?


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## jillybean19

Well hello again  God to see everyone posting despite my long absence lol. I back now as you can see new that I've settled in some in our new home and location. I've got some catching up and updating to do obviously. That'll have to come later but I just wanted to say hello for now 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

quintessence said:


> Thanks for the welcome and Happy New Year everyone
> 
> My mare is catching on very quickly, at the moment I am doing everything at liberty without even a halter, I think its pretty cool that she will leave her dinner which contains some of the carrot/apple pieces I use as treats to come and play. The reaction from the other horses is so funny - they all stand at the fence line while we play. My daughters pony who knows some tricks and stands there the whole time nodding his head 'Yes'. My gelding stands watchign us twisting his head and neck while pulling all sorts of faces and my daughter mare stands right at the fencline presenting us with her bottom to show her disapproval at not being involved.
> 
> I am teaching Tessa the Spanish Walk from the side (standing at her girth). I use two cues - lifting my leg up and touching the back of her leg, and yesterday I introduced the verbal 'step' cue. I don't want her flinging her front legs around from an accidental cue or whenever she wants, so using multiple cues seems a good way of teaching this, and she has had no problems accepting multiple cues as most other things we do on the ground and under saddle use physical and verbal cues.
> 
> Yesterday she offered the first beautiful lift and point with her left leg rather than just raising the leg up. We are not as far along with the right leg as I havn't spent as much time on it, although she understood the cues to lift the right foot from the first try so it won't be long.
> 
> I've been watching as many youtube videos as I can on teaching Spanish Walk and many of them seem to encourage pawing to the point it becomes striking behaviour. I don't want to do this as its a dangerous habit that I won't tolerate and actively discourage in my horses.
> 
> Although Tessa hasn't tried to paw or strike the ground, can anyone clarify the steps I would take to discourage pawing fi she tries to? It seems counter-intuitive to me to allow the horse to energetically paw the ground, then try and restrict to a single well controlled lift and step. I don't mind if it will take longer to teach in a more controlled manner.
> 
> I'm presuming only rewarding a single leg point and touching the ground once only and ignoring multiple strikes to the ground would be the way to go? Or would it be more effective to teach her to target something in front of her with her hoof or place her foot on a mat or pedestal?



I always reserve skills like spanish walk, kicking objects, biting objects (to pick up), laying down, rearing up - Any skill I don't want to see without a cue - for when my horse is VERY clicker savvy. 
The first few skills you teach a horse will be their favorite one to go back to when they're unsure of what to do. Which is why standing still and facing forward is always the first skill I teach a horse, then targeting with their nose.
"stimulus control" means the skill is only ever done on cue, never offers it without a cue or with the wrong cue. Double cuing is great for horses to be more versatile, but it really doesn't make it any more "safe" as they'll likely perform the skill if any one of the cues are given. Normally people double word cues "walkwalk" so that horses don't respond to casual conversation - I haven't ever found that to be a problem though.

I would put several simple skills on strong stimulus control before moving on to something potentially dangerous.

That being said, yes, a good way to avoid pawing is not rewarding pawing, rewarding them picking and holding up their leg. Another option is using a farrier's pedestal and teaching the horse to target it with their hoof - then cue the behavior without the pedestal when the cue is solid. This will show her the purpose is to pick and hold her hoof up, not pawing or striking.


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Well hello again  God to see everyone posting despite my long absence lol. I back now as you can see new that I've settled in some in our new home and location. I've got some catching up and updating to do obviously. That'll have to come later but I just wanted to say hello for now
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excited to have you back  Can't wait to hear how you and your ponies are doing


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## Foxtail Ranch

Hurray, Jillybean is back! Can't wait to hear your update!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## quintessence

PunksTank said:


> I always reserve skills like spanish walk, kicking objects, biting objects (to pick up), laying down, rearing up - Any skill I don't want to see without a cue - for when my horse is VERY clicker savvy.
> 
> The first few skills you teach a horse will be their favorite one to go back to when they're unsure of what to do. Which is why standing still and facing forward is always the first skill I teach a horse, then targeting with their nose.
> 
> I would put several simple skills on strong stimulus control before moving on to something potentially dangerous.


Sorry, I should have said I introduced her clicker training last week by teaching her to stand facing forward, with her nose slightly tipped towards her chest, then we moved on to targeting a small orange cone and a piece of pool noodle on a stick. She will move her head/neck left and right, up and down and take up to four steps to touch her target when asked (when I point to it and say 'touch') and is already solid with those skills. I've also quickly run through some other things that she already does (fore and hind yielding, following me (left, right and back) at liberty, head down etc re-inforcing with c&t.

She's very smart and willing to please so she's progressed pretty quickly plus I'm familiar with clicker training so havn't had to learn it myself which probably helps

Thanks for the tip about the farrier stand, I've got one of those but hadn't thought of using it, but it would be ideal to use.


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## PunksTank

quintessence said:


> Sorry, I should have said I introduced her clicker training last week by teaching her to stand facing forward, with her nose slightly tipped towards her chest, then we moved on to targeting a small orange cone and a piece of pool noodle on a stick. She will move her head/neck left and right, up and down and take up to four steps to touch her target when asked (when I point to it and say 'touch') and is already solid with those skills. I've also quickly run through some other things that she already does (fore and hind yielding, following me (left, right and back) at liberty, head down etc re-inforcing with c&t.
> 
> She's very smart and willing to please so she's progressed pretty quickly plus I'm familiar with clicker training so havn't had to learn it myself which probably helps
> 
> Thanks for the tip about the farrier stand, I've got one of those but hadn't thought of using it, but it would be ideal to use.


That's all wonderful! But it sounds like each skill is not on a "cue" right now, they're all triggered by the presence of a target or pressure. So there's no new skill that's on "stimulus control" yet. 1 week of basic clicker skills is a great, but not a solid history.
I would probably spend more time working on the basics just to be sure you can keep her on strong stimulus control before teaching anything you might not want to see offered to you. Most skills, while they're new will be offered without a cue until they learn that doesn't work. Which is why the first few skills that I want on stimulus control I try to keep being skills I don't mind seeing without a cue. 
The best way to teach stimulus control really is to just ignore it without the cue and reward it when cued. The first few skills this will take a while for them to realize when they do and don't get rewarded for it. But once they understand this concept the later skills they understand more quickly.

So yes you can continue teaching the spanish walk by rewarding it on cue and ignoring it off cue - it's a more difficult behavior for the horse and if she's not a pawer in general she may not offer it much without the cue. But she also may offer it.. I just would hate for you to be dissuaded if this doesn't work out well to start with


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## jaydee

I only use CT to train for what I see as useful - so while I wouldn't tell anyone not to train a horse to Spanish walk or rear to command - I personally don't have any need for those things so no experience of them
I do have reservations about both - a horse that thinks that 'pawing' is going to get him a treat could become a real PITA so you would have to be very clear about the cues you use to ask for that
So saying - since I suffer with recurring back problems I am working on getting them to lift their feet to command so I don't have to bed down so far


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## Foxtail Ranch

Millie is an Appendix filly who LOVES to paw and she has tried that "answer" for CT. My response was "no." Until Millie is much further along, I will not teach her anything that involves pawing motions. She needs to understand a lot more basics first.


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Millie is an Appendix filly who LOVES to paw and she has tried that "answer" for CT. My response was "no." Until Millie is much further along, I will not teach her anything that involves pawing motions. She needs to understand a lot more basics first.


Some horses are much more emotionally ready for skills like this. My mare is a pawer so I'll never make that part of any skill for her - we're still working on putting that "skill" on extinction (meaning because it's never reinforced it gradually disappears). 

That being said a great way to reduce an unwanted behavior is to put it on cue - then put that cue on stimulus control. So I could add a cue to my mare's pawing and choose not to reinforce it when she does it without the cue. The problem I think is that, for my mare, pawing in itself is reinforcing. The movement makes her feel better somehow (like when you're anxious or excited sometimes jumping up and down or squeezing something real tight feels SO good - I think pawing offers her that same release when she's overly excited at meal time.
This is why I don't thin I could ever get pawing on solid stimulus control and don't want to teach it or reinforce it ever. 
So in this case I gave her a skill to do in that situation that contradicted pawing. I hung a jolly ball in her (and all my horses) stalls and taught her to target the ball. It was simple for her. I built some duration on it heavily reinforced standing 4 feet down, with her nose on the ball. So now when I feed her she has to be at her ball 4 feet on the floor to get her meals. This contradicts her pawing and has greatly reduced the pawing. She will still do it when she's been in her stall without food too long - I live upstairs and can hear her. She also does it when she hears me coming down the stairs at meal time - but as soon as I open the door into the barn her nose is on the ball saying "I'm READY!!"

So I do think it depends on the horse - but stimulus control is vital with any skill you don't want to see all the time. Practicing stimulus control with safe skills before moving on to harder skills is more ideal.

For instance, one of our teens at the rescue is working with an arabian, the mare is mouthy with hands, all hands MUST have food. I didn't want her to teach the horse a hand target, because I don't want her hand to ever be bitten - but she kept forgetting to bring a target and really wanted to use a hand target... SO - I had her teach the horse a flat palm-out hand meant "keep away" while a fist meant target. I even had her work on several transitions of target - away - target - away until I could trust an open palm would quickly get her mouth away. It worked wonders, now when people go to pat her face she doesn't grab for food, and she targets fists with the top of her nose, rather than her lips. But I wanted her to have a solid "away" cue before a solid "touch" skill. 
An important thing to remember in CT is that you have to reinforce both sides of the scale to balance them how you want. 
So if you want to teach a horse to pick a foot up, you need to reinforce feet down just as much as feet up so that one doesn't outweigh the other - into a dangerous situation.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I agree Punks. Each equine (I have a donkey too!) needs to be considered as a whole creature when you plan their training. 

Millie needs lots of "4 feet on the ground" and "be still" commands. She is all baby-eagerness, so she would try anything I asked, I think. But she is still completely unreliable and goofy, so I am careful about what I ask her to do.


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## Foxtail Ranch

This is Millie the Wonder Filly, who likes to paw everything within her tiny teacup hooves' reach. We got her as a rescue that came with a huge injury to her right forehead and shoulder, if you are wondering about her scar.

She did great this weekend in the eastern Oregon high desert. She has about 20 rides on her.


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## jaydee

Jazzy has got the hang of stepping back when you go into her stable so well now she almost runs back and has to be told to 'stand' - all done with CT - originally you had to fight your way to get in past her and no amount of slapping on the chest, shoving or shouting would work


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## jillybean19

This discussion of stimulus control hits right on one of my current problems. Flash normally picks things up very quickly, but side passing took a lot of small steps (first from the ground, then from the saddle) to get him started. Once he got the movement down, he had to learn when to do it. When given the command now, I'd say he does it correctly (including the direction) about 75% of the time. However, whenever he's unsure of what I want or is anticipating a cue, he side passes now. :/ Moreover, when that doesn't work, he often goes the OTHER way! I believe this is a result of how much time we spent working on this particular movement and it has replaced his old default of "stand" (which was his default because it was one of the very first things I taught him and we practiced it under many conditions, therefore dedicating a lot of time to that one behavior). Now, we're back to reinforcing "stand", especially when mounting so it's kind of a "new" behavior (not really - just a new context), and every now and then we work on side passing. I'm trying to extinguish it as a default behavior because it occasionally results in him not wanting to stand still at all (though for different reasons than people realize because it looks just like their dancy horses - they have no idea he's actually trying to do something FOR me), so I don't want to dedicate time to a behavior in trying to extinguish. On the other hand, maybe more time working on the cue is what we need instead?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19

Hmmm now I'm thinking about balance like what Punks was talking about. Maybe I've been so focused on reinforcing the new behavior I want, I'm forgetting to reinforce doing nothing at all while waiting for the cue? I did start doing this a little bit ago but I think it may have been to complicated to get the message across. Since he was going all directions me or less on cue (but still having to take time to figure out which cue meant what) and I wanted him to recognize the different cues mixed up, I started walking, stopping, baking, and side passing both directions all mixed up and C+R when he figured out the correct response. Maybe I should just do 2 or 3, like side passing, stop, and side passing the other direction? When initially teaching him to side pass, we'd go one way, C+R, the the other way. I think I forgot the importance of reinforcing the stop in between! It would make sense why he would think he's always got to go somewhere (usually sideways, sometimes backward). Once he's solid on those, I could add in walk until he's got all three directions (plus stop and wait), and finally back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

Jillybean - yes exactly. Everytime we reinforce a behavior we're adding "weight" on theside of the scale that makes them want to perform the behavior. If an old behavior was heavily reinforced, but now a contradictary behavior is being reinforced they need to choose. In this case I provide a cue for each and have to work to reinforce both skill evenly. 
When you want to start differentiating cues you should start slowlt and with two more obvious differences. For example I'd start with Standing and side passing reinforcing both. Then I might add standing and backing up. Then all three. Then add one more. Then another. I wouldnt expect to add them all at once.

I think people often forget to go back and reinforce the base behaviors when they start to teach a new skill.
For example I'm teaching my mare a solid one rein stop flex, the cue is different than steering. I'm teaching "pressure free" then adding a pressure related cue, rather than using pressurr to teach. So I put at target at the stirrup and wanted her to flex to touch it. I did this until she offered the flex without the target. Then I added the rein cue. I only did one side first. Now from here she always wants her nose touching my left stirrup. So at this point I start reinforcing head forward when no cue is added, then nose to stirrup when one rein stop is cued. Then I did the same thing on the other side and reinforced facing forward for no cue, and nose to correct stirrup when cued. 

Its all a matter of keeping the scales balanced. 
I have found since I began clicker training I have become much more of a thinking rider. I'm more focused on all the little things and paying attention to what to reinforce and what needs to be more balanced. And building chains is fun too.  so much to always think about!


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## Foxtail Ranch

this is where I get frustrated with CT, though. All this balancing. It is usually where I flounder.


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## PunksTank

tiffanyodonnell said:


> this is where I get frustrated with CT, though. All this balancing. It is usually where I flounder.



I get that! 
But it's really not as hard as it seems. It comes down to base behaviors and keeping the base behavior as much as the new behavior. It all sounds complicated but it all comes down to "reinforce what you want to see more of". If you want to see more sidepassing, reinforce that if you begin to see too much side passing reinforce stillness untik the side pass is cued.
Its just getting the cue on stimulus control.
For example when I teach my horse to walk I want to reinforcestopping as much as walking. Reinforcing the upward and downward transitions the same amount. You can tell when one needs more balancing when one is offered more than the other. If a horse becomes slower or quieter they might need more upward reinforcement. If they become quicker or take longer to slow down, reinforce the slower. Its just about being flexible and reinforcing what needs reinforcement jn the moment.


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## jaydee

I still have problems with Looby who once she learnt to sidepass then kept on wanting to do it without being asked because she enjoyed being told she was a 'good girl'


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## PunksTank

I just saw this video and thought this would be a great place to share it. It's a great discussion about about mixing +R with -R. How and when to do so safely. And most importantly when you feel like you "need" to use pressure, what are some alternatives rather than using pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHH15lSf6hU&feature=youtu.be


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## jillybean19

Lol I've a actually thought a lot about that discussion since when we talked about Flash's kicking incident and how I dealt with it. I still stand by my decision to drastically increase the pressure, including the use of the crop, and think i can articulate my reasons for doing so. I agree that I could have trained Flash to yield his hind end with minimal pressure. However, yielding was just a tool to teach a more important lesson: how to react when uncomfortable. Flash is rarely nervous or uncomfortable. In fact, I think his kicking was more of an "I'm annoyed" reaction, and he saw it as acceptable behavior in such a situation. He knew he was free to move away, but didn't feel like it (or was confused if I give him the benefit of the doubt, but other incidents lead me to believe otherwise) and kicked. He's demonstrated similar behavior when asking him to lope while lounging. 

So that's the behavior I needed to address: bad/dangerous behavior when he gets annoyed/confused/frustrated. Because let's face it: we do our very best, especially with CT to avoid those feelings, but it will happen. If not in training (depending on the methods used as some methods do intentionally escalate things to that point, and if anyone else ever works with your horse it likely will), it'll happen elsewhere. What if we were out in the pasture and I suddenly needed to chase him away for safety reasons? He needed to know that that sort of reaction is not acceptable, even under stress. This is the hole CT left in his training since we avoid stress as much as possible and, in Flash's case, the threshold is easily completely avoided because he's so calm and easy going.

So, like Punks, I trained a different behavior for Flash to do - move away, particularly his hind end for my own safety. By focusing on his hind end and escalating things to where he might have kicked, he learned to do something different with that end when he feels uncomfortable. Now, I have yielding his hind end on a cue, but he also keeps it away from me whenever we pick up or energy and he is trying to figure out what to do. For instance, when I have to get after him to pick up his speed when lounging and he doesn't get it right away, he yields his hind end where he used to do a little kick in my direction. Not only does he know that kicking will not be tolerated, but he's also got a safe "I'm confused" behavior. I believe he's also more confidant because he knows what his "safe" behavior is (when in doubt, move my but away) and so he stays focused instead of getting frustrated or escalating toward his threshold. 

It would have been impossible to teach without escalation since traction to escalation was the point. Of course, some horses (like Tank) are not ready for this lesson yet as it would just make things worse. On the other hand, Tank has probably already learned this lesson because she (at least used to) operates so close to her threshold at all times. But Flash still needed this lesson - and he needed it immediately. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> Lol I've a actually thought a lot about that discussion since when we talked about Flash's kicking incident and how I dealt with it. I still stand by my decision to drastically increase the pressure, including the use of the crop, and think i can articulate my reasons for doing so. I agree that I could have trained Flash to yield his hind end with minimal pressure. However, yielding was just a tool to teach a more important lesson: how to react when uncomfortable. Flash is rarely nervous or uncomfortable. In fact, I think his kicking was more of an "I'm annoyed" reaction, and he saw it as acceptable behavior in such a situation. He knew he was free to move away, but didn't feel like it (or was confused if I give him the benefit of the doubt, but other incidents lead me to believe otherwise) and kicked. He's demonstrated similar behavior when asking him to lope while lounging.
> 
> So that's the behavior I needed to address: bad/dangerous behavior when he gets annoyed/confused/frustrated. Because let's face it: we do our very best, especially with CT to avoid those feelings, but it will happen. If not in training (depending on the methods used as some methods do intentionally escalate things to that point, and if anyone else ever works with your horse it likely will), it'll happen elsewhere. What if we were out in the pasture and I suddenly needed to chase him away for safety reasons? He needed to know that that sort of reaction is not acceptable, even under stress.
> 
> So, like Punks, I trained a different behavior for Flash to do - move away, particularly his hind end for my own safety. By focusing on his hind end and escalating things to where he might have kicked, he learned to do something different with that end when he feels uncomfortable. Now, I have yielding his hind end on a cue, but he also keeps it away from me whenever we pick up or energy and he is trying to figure out what to do. For instance, when I have to get after him to pick up his speed when lounging and he doesn't get it right away, he yields his hind end where he used to do a little kick in my direction. Not only does he know that kicking will not be tolerated, but he's also got a safe "I'm confused" behavior. I believe he's also more confidant because he knows what his "safe" behavior is (when in doubt, move my but away) and so he stays focused instead of getting frustrated or escalating toward his threshold.
> 
> Of course, some horses (like Tank) are not ready for this lesson yet as it would just make things worse. But Flash needed it - and he needed it immediately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sorry that wasn't pointed at you or your work with Flash, it was just meant as an overall good video about mixing the two.


That being said I am handling a very similar situation with Tank. Tank does not kick, she bolts. When she is afraid, overwhelmed, confused or frustrated she runs away, fast and hard and doesn't stop until she feels better. One day the neighbor was shooting geese, she ran herself HARD for the entire day. She was obviously no longer afraid of the shots or falling geese after the first hour - but she was annoyed and overwhelmed and not in a "thinking" mindset. 

But in our training I need brakes 100% of the time. So for this situation I taught Tank a one rein stop, with much help from a friend - I managed to teach this without pressure. I did it as I described just in a recent post up above. She's developed a pretty solid one, but this really isn't ideal to have to one-rein-stop every time my horse gets concerned or annoyed.
SO, I taught Tank a "head down" cue. I did this by luring with a target and shaping without one. Using only a verbal cue. I have heard some people use this because it helps "Shift them out of flight mode" I don't know if I believe that 100%... Either way I like this skill because it contradicts everything I don't want to see. I don't want to see running or kicking or head shooting up in panic. Having her head down and 4 feet on the floor, she can't be doing anything I don't want.

So once "head down" became her favorite skill to offer me, she loves it! I started bringing objects in with her, things I knew would scare her. I kept them at a point very close to her "threshold" but not there yet, I wanted her to be weary and ready to be afraid, but still "thinking" about it.
I would then cue "head down" and reward her tries. I did this ALOT. Once the head down was solid I would begin having her target the object or keep her head down while it was becoming scarier. I rewarded "calm" more than I rewarded the head down behavior. But I wanted to connect head down=calm in her mind. 
She has always been afraid in my dark, narrow barn aisle, but has had no choice but to go through it every day. It usually resulted in balking or bolting through it. I added my head down cue while we walked through it and she remains calm as we walk through. It took time to build that, but it was better than anything else I'd tried. Now she has no worries and walks through with her head level.

A few days ago she was in her paddock and a ball of snow dropped from a tree and landed flat on her bum. She jumped in place and dropped her nose tot he ground and waited. After a minute she picked her head up and carried on like nothing had happened. I wish I had been close enough to click and jackpot that!!

SO, the point I'm having trouble getting to P sorry!) is that if you connect a specific behavior with a specific feeling, they will generalize it. When Tank is overwhelmed or afraid or annoyed by something, her head drops. Gradually this is becoming her default behavior more and more than bolting. But we still have our mistakes. It's a slow work in progress.
But I was able to teach this without ever having to push her over threshold or use pressure/force.



Now don't get me wrong - I don't think what you did was wrong or bad in any way - it's just not what I would have done and I like to put options out there for anyone else following this thread


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## jillybean19

Punks - I clarified myself and related it to Tank while you were reading and writing, particularly the last paragraph 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

PunksTank said:


> SO, the point I'm having trouble getting to P sorry!) is that if you connect a specific behavior with a specific feeling, they will generalize it. When Tank is overwhelmed or afraid or annoyed by something, her head drops. Gradually this is becoming her default behavior more and more than bolting. But we still have our mistakes. It's a slow work in progress.
> But I was able to teach this without ever having to push her over threshold or use pressure/force.


I wanted to explain this more...
For Tank and for many horse, bolting (or kicking out or rearing up) is very reinforcing behavior in and of itself. Tank will rear and bolt and buck in her paddock when something sends her over threshold - so clearly this behavior is reinforced by something other than just her human leaving her alone when she does this.
I believe, just like people, this sort of stretching/exercise/lashing out feels good, emotionally - ever have a temper tantrum? Even if you accomplish nothing - screaming and yelling or punching the crap out of a pillow - feels good. Many people have learned to go for runs to release this pent up energy/stress. Others use muscle tension and release to help relieve this. Having suffered from anxiety most of my adult life I've found all of these things to be very reinforcing, especially while stressed.
So Tank is bolting because it FEELS good to bolt when she's stressed. Her entire life bolting has been her default response to over-stimulation. And it's worked. She has a long history of this working and feeling good.

So I'm trying to give her a new behavior to do while she's under stress. My job is to tip that scale (remember we were just talking about those balances ) in the direction where putting her head down is MORE reinforcing than bolting for her. If dropping her head while she's under stress results in piles of food, where as running around just results in feeling good she's going to have to choose. My job is to keep putting emphasis and keep building up a reinforcement history on the "head down" behavior until that's what she chooses. Stress becomes her "cue" to drop her head. It also safely allows me to see when she's approaching threshold, rather than getting run away with and having to ORS her.

So far it's been working like magic


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## jaydee

It really just proves that each horse needs a slightly different approach that's in keeping with its personality - its just about getting the balance right
For example - if I used too much negative reinforcement with Willow or Looby I would get a negative result (if you get my meaning) that would set me right back with them because regardless of how we treat our horses they don't forget past bad experiences as in order to survive the horse had to learn to avoid painful situations so they seem to remember them a lot more than they do all the good things
Flo, Jazzie and Honey are the exact opposite and without a little negative reinforcement on occasions would literally walk all over you - especially Honey.


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## jillybean19

I'm seeing where you're coming from more now. Though it's for different reasons (being scared v. Being annoyed), I would agree that getting a little kick in before obeying is reinforcing for Flash. I've done what you did when it comes to lounging and, for the most part, eliminating the kicking be making loping more rewarding. We hardly ever have that issue anymore and I can confidently all him to lope under saddle now too without queuing about a little buck or kick. 

However, my use of pressure was for the sake of context. Flash rarely gets uncomfortable, and so he hadn't learned an appropriate reaction for when he does get uncomfortable. You have the opposite problem with Tank - when you started, she was rarely comfortable so she learned with you the appropriate way to handle it. In my case, since an uncomfortable situation is unlikely to come about on its own, I had to create the situation with pressure in order to teach him that good behavior still applies and can be rewarded when he's uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

jillybean19 said:


> However, my use of pressure was for the sake of context. Flash rarely gets uncomfortable, and so he hadn't learned an appropriate reaction for when he does get uncomfortable. You have the opposite problem with Tank - when you started, she was rarely comfortable so she learned with you the appropriate way to handle it. In my case, since an uncomfortable situation is unlikely to come about on its own, I had to create the situation with pressure in order to teach him that good behavior still applies and can be rewarded when he's uncomfortable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, I even had to replicate putting her in frustrating or stressful situations. I (and I believe you did too but can't remember the specifics) worked with keeping her just under threshold and rewarding and reinforcing the correct choice.





That being said, here's another great video from Shawna - again not pointed at anyone, just putting it out there because she's just been posting these up and thought it was a good one to share. It's a common misbelief that clicker trained horses are pushy or rude or don't understand boundaries. This is just a good explanation of how to teach boundaries and setting standards for your clicker trained horse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIH5lHGFog&feature=youtu.be


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## jillybean19

I have a good report today  Though Flash was reliably yielding his hind end when asked, I haven't done a lot of front end yielding. I'd also like to teach him to pivot and eventually spin, so it's about time we started working on yielding the front end and keeping the back feet in place. We spent about 10-15 minutes practicing just yielding with little pressure on Wednesday. Of course, he started out wanting to sidepass, but I just kept the pressure toward the front 1/3 of his body instead of the side and he figured it out. Yesterday, we did two 10-minute sessions, after which I had him crossing over about 3-4 good steps while keeping his back feet in place. And he didn't sidepass once! Today he picked up right where we left off and was going really well one direction (right?), but kept wanting to adjust his back feet going the other direction. I mimicked the reins with my lead rope, laying it on his neck and using that as the pressure to ask him to turn today (along with saying "turn") and giving a little tug when he walked forward. He figured it out very quickly and I stopped and jackpotted once he got 4-5 good steps on his "bad" side without moving his back feet. Success!

Then we rode bareback. I decided not to go straight to pivoting while riding and instead focused today on clarifying my cues for side passing. I kept in mind our discussion of balance and reinforcing him holding still just as much as sidepassing. I didn't reinforce each time he stopped, but knowing where he starts to struggle I did reinforce for each time he stopped and waited when he would normally try to move, including mounting because he thinks I'm moving to ask him to do something. He also tends to start moving right after getting a treat because he's anticipating me asking him to do the same thing again, so I reinforced each time he held still even after receiving the treat. When I felt him begin to move after getting a treat, I asked him to stop before he could go anywhere by squeezing my legs and giving a soft woah (no rein pressure!), and when he responded correctly (which he did very time), I clicked and treated for that as well. Honestly, I think it clicked for him that I can ask him to do all sorts of things at any time, so waiting for and focusing on my cues and what I'm actually ASKING him to do will get him treats a lot faster than anticipating what he thinks I'm going to ask for and just doing it.

He is side passing really well to the right, but was getting confused going to the left - he'd just keep on going right, back up, or start turning/walking. So, I just kept on giving the cue, ignoring the "wrong" behavior and waiting until he got it correct, then clicking and treating. It didn't take long before he figured out I wanted him to sidepass LEFT and was doing a somewhat-recognizeable sidepass to the left each time I asked. However, he was still getting some forward motion going and leaving his butt behind, so once he knew WHERE to go, I worked with him on HOW to do it by moving my heel further back to move his butt over while checking him in the front. It took him a little bit to figure out what I was asking, but once he did it correctly and got a click and treat, he did it wonderfully every time and I had a beautiful side pass in the correct direction.

All of this was going to the left (since I was really satisfied with his right sidepass), so I gave him a break and walked around the arena a few times. Finally, I wanted to see if he really got what I thought he got and I asked him to sidepass one direction, stop, and then go the other way. He didn't miss a beat! Success!!

I was so proud of him today  Now that he really understands the cue, he knows when I'm asking him to sidepass, as well as when I'm NOT asking him to sidepass. We took the guesswork out of it  But, that was not without reinforcement of doing other things (like standing) to balance out all the sidepassing. Even more of a testament to clicker training, however, is the fact that I accomplished all of the side-passing in about 30 minutes of riding, working on the sidepassing itself for a total of probably 20 minutes broken up by walking around and letting him relax


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## Foxtail Ranch

jillybean19 said:


> I have a good report today  Though Flash was reliably yielding his hind end when asked, I haven't done a lot of front end yielding. I'd also like to teach him to pivot and eventually spin, so it's about time we started working on yielding the front end and keeping the back feet in place. We spent about 10-15 minutes practicing just yielding with little pressure on Wednesday. Of course, he started out wanting to sidepass, but I just kept the pressure toward the front 1/3 of his body instead of the side and he figured it out. Yesterday, we did two 10-minute sessions, after which I had him crossing over about 3-4 good steps while keeping his back feet in place. And he didn't sidepass once! Today he picked up right where we left off and was going really well one direction (right?), but kept wanting to adjust his back feet going the other direction. I mimicked the reins with my lead rope, laying it on his neck and using that as the pressure to ask him to turn today (along with saying "turn") and giving a little tug when he walked forward. He figured it out very quickly and I stopped and jackpotted once he got 4-5 good steps on his "bad" side without moving his back feet. Success!
> 
> Then we rode bareback. I decided not to go straight to pivoting while riding and instead focused today on clarifying my cues for side passing. I kept in mind our discussion of balance and reinforcing him holding still just as much as sidepassing. I didn't reinforce each time he stopped, but knowing where he starts to struggle I did reinforce for each time he stopped and waited when he would normally try to move, including mounting because he thinks I'm moving to ask him to do something. He also tends to start moving right after getting a treat because he's anticipating me asking him to do the same thing again, so I reinforced each time he held still even after receiving the treat. When I felt him begin to move after getting a treat, I asked him to stop before he could go anywhere by squeezing my legs and giving a soft woah (no rein pressure!), and when he responded correctly (which he did very time), I clicked and treated for that as well. Honestly, I think it clicked for him that I can ask him to do all sorts of things at any time, so waiting for and focusing on my cues and what I'm actually ASKING him to do will get him treats a lot faster than anticipating what he thinks I'm going to ask for and just doing it.
> 
> He is side passing really well to the right, but was getting confused going to the left - he'd just keep on going right, back up, or start turning/walking. So, I just kept on giving the cue, ignoring the "wrong" behavior and waiting until he got it correct, then clicking and treating. It didn't take long before he figured out I wanted him to sidepass LEFT and was doing a somewhat-recognizeable sidepass to the left each time I asked. However, he was still getting some forward motion going and leaving his butt behind, so once he knew WHERE to go, I worked with him on HOW to do it by moving my heel further back to move his butt over while checking him in the front. It took him a little bit to figure out what I was asking, but once he did it correctly and got a click and treat, he did it wonderfully every time and I had a beautiful side pass in the correct direction.
> 
> All of this was going to the left (since I was really satisfied with his right sidepass), so I gave him a break and walked around the arena a few times. Finally, I wanted to see if he really got what I thought he got and I asked him to sidepass one direction, stop, and then go the other way. He didn't miss a beat! Success!!
> 
> I was so proud of him today  Now that he really understands the cue, he knows when I'm asking him to sidepass, as well as when I'm NOT asking him to sidepass. We took the guesswork out of it  But, that was not without reinforcement of doing other things (like standing) to balance out all the sidepassing. Even more of a testament to clicker training, however, is the fact that I accomplished all of the side-passing in about 30 minutes of riding, working on the sidepassing itself for a total of probably 20 minutes broken up by walking around and letting him relax


That is fantastic JB! I especially like this: *" Honestly, I think it clicked for him that I can ask him to do all sorts of things at any time, so waiting for and focusing on my cues and what I'm actually ASKING him to do will get him treats a lot faster than anticipating what he thinks I'm going to ask for and just doing it."*


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## jillybean19

OK so another update (I love being on break and having a better situation where I can work Flash daily!). Today, we mostly worked bareback on stopping, side passing both directions, and backing. Though I was afraid side passing more would encourage him to do it more often when I wasn't asking for it, it seems our lesson with reinforcement of sidepassing the correct direction on cue and also reinforcing stopping and holding still really stuck. Like the part Tiffany pointed out, I really do think the extra work taught him to pay attention to the cues I give him. Yay for stimulus control!

Anyway, he's now sidepassing BEAUTIFULLY to the left and always goes the correct direction. Unfortunately, we had some trouble to the right now, so we'll need to focus on that a little. It took me a minute to diagnose our problem, though. He wasn't as coordinated as I'd like and was going forward or turning as he was side passing, and I'd try to adjust him. But, he was getting confused with my adjustments. As it turns out, he was reacting to my bum moving! When I taught him the cue to side pass, I was giving him a spur and dropping my hip on the opposite side to push him over as well as open up the direction I wanted him to go (i.e. to sidpass right, I gave a little spur on the left and dropped my left hip, shifting my weight more to the left). As with our initial work when I was teaching him to ride in the first place and really emphasizing the use of my leg (as I've always been a hands-only rider), it turns out he connected my seat and leg cues to what I was asking him to do rather than just the reins. In fact, once I corrected myself and made sure I was keeping my weight to the left even while holding him back with the reins from moving forward or asking him to keep his front and back together, he immediately responded correctly. In fact, I he even side-passed when I dropped the reins altogether! He's making me a much better rider!

Afterward, we did some leading at liberty just for fun. I ran around the arena and he followed (he got really excited after a bit and began loping around with me), then we'd stop and I'd ask him to back up with me. He was nickering bunch each time he heard the click and even dropped (which by the way, he ALWAYS drops at least a few times when we're doing clicker training and occasionally "stands" straight up if you get my drift - have I mentioned how much he enjoys CT? silly geldings not knowing what that's _actually_ for.). We did a few yielding exercises at liberty as well, including the pivoting we've been working on and he was a superstar. We have so much fun!


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## Foxtail Ranch

I have been working on loading into the trailer this week. Every horse loads, just a little reluctantly. yesterday, everyone just trotted right in! 

Millie is still afraid of backing out so we will work on that after independent loading is more solid. 

Chalk another success up to CT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

I made a really bad mistake last week when I was putting antiseptic on an ouchy that Looby had on her nose - it was really sore so it must have stung and she ran back. I stupidly lost patience and pulled at her and got cross and that was the end of that
I left her an hour and went back to try again - she was nervous which made me feel awful after everything we've achieved but a bit of CT and she relaxed really quickly, had the first aid done happily and then followed me around her stall while I pretended to do stuff. 
Lesson learnt!!!


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## Foxtail Ranch

Its been ages since anyone posted here. I guess everyone is caught up in springtime crazies like me?

I have been dealing with barn & herd sourness, as I increase time and distance on solo rides with my horses. This is one thing I have not found CT to help with.

Now, everyone is settling in nicely. April left the yard pretty well today, and her trot was loose, had good rhythm, and was even a little stretchy. I clucked when she dropped her head to the position I wanted to get her stretching out. Usually when I cluck, she will stop dead in her tracks for her treat, she gets her treat and then we go on. Today, she did not stop! She just kept going. She was really paying attention to when I clucked, so I really focused on her head position and only clucked when it was perfect. It was amazing! She was putting all the little pieces together for long and low, getting her head just right. She didn't want to stop until we had gone about a half mile. Then, she stopped and turned for her treat. I gave her a jackpot! She seemed so pleased with herself. So, we started trotting again, and she held it together for another 1/2 mile.

I am so proud! 

I hope to hear from you all soon! Punk, Jaydee, Jilly?


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## jaydee

The weather's picked up here and dried up so I really must get started again - I need to get a new saddle for Willow but I'll use the one I have until I've got her working well enough to try some out - I found a really good saddle fitter so feel more optimistic now. 
Looby was once again the perfect horse to have her teeth, shots and Coggins done last week - no ACE or restraints - just a some CT when she got a little tense at one stage. I feel so proud of her when I think of what she was like
I've bought a Stubben hackamore for Honey - it fits her better than the English one and I think I won't even bother with the bit at all this year
I've never tried using CT from the saddle


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## Foxtail Ranch

Isn't it amazing? I am so proud of my mares and how far they have come. Glad you found a good fitting bridle for Honey. I switch April to a bosal when the bit seemed to bother her and her dental appointment was still 6 weeks away. She is actually much softer in the basal than her bit! I'm sticking with it too. 

I like CT in saddle for teaching long and low stretching with April. Especially lately. She gets what I am asking and seems to Luke how it feels too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

Whew glad to hear things are going well for everyone 

Things have been going awesome here, very busy though! We bought a new farm and are moving the horses at the end of the month - Tank, Revel and Punk. Then in the Fall I'll be taking in 2 minis and my Gypsy colt will finally be coming home  So very excited for that!











Our clicker work has been going great! Punk's learned a few new fun tricks:





















Tank is learning about all sorts of new novel stimuli, can you believe she used to be spooky?  I can't! We go for walks daily now, no spooks at all *knock on wood* she confidently targets anything I ask her too. If she tenses up looking at something (even if I'm not sure what it is) I can just tell her to "touch it" and she'll go right over and target it until it's not scary anymore! We did a little riding in the snow, but have been more focused on counter conditioning. Since we're moving at the end of the month I wanted her as comfortable as possible with new things and situations to make the transition easier.




























































So happy with my Clicker Training results


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## jaydee

The difference in Tank is just amazing - while I'm acceptable to the idea that sometimes a good hard slap is needed for some horses in some situations your horse is living proof that the gentle approach works really well and the result can be so much more positive
I'm going to try the CT approach with Honey and Willow this summer when they're doing ridden work - they both have hang ups that can't be sorted with 'negative reinforcement' and too much pressure


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## Foxtail Ranch

I agree Jaydee! There are some critters that just need positive reinforcement for their learning. There are also some learning that just lends itself to CT too, like Millie and the clippers right now. She is becoming a little more okay with them everyday with CT. 

Punk, tell us about the new farm! You must be very excited.


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## PunksTank

Thanks guys - I couldn't be happier. 
I haven't met a horse yet who would benefit from a slap (or any aversive). I find positive punishment is only good for interrupting unwanted behavior, not for fixing it. It's much easier to teach a contradictory behavior or train the abscense of the unwanted behavior. Until they have something else to do the unwanted behavior is just surpressed by punishment and likely to show up when they think it's safe to do so - resulting in "sneaky" behaviors.

I've been starting to go back and work with the colt I'll be taking home. I got him over his aggression a year ago, but stopped working with him and it resurfaced over the winter. He was kept inside a lot due to weather and started getting worked up when someone cleaned his stall with him in it. This was treated with well timed. Very thorough positive punishment. He responded with more aggression. It got to the point where he would get whoever was in his stall pinned in a corner, striking and biting, they would fight him off with a pitchfork. Despite the good timing and the severity of the punishment it only made him worse. The past few weeks I've just been working on him standing calmly in my presence, allowing me to touch and brush him everywhere and leading quietly. His aggression melted away. He needed a clear "yesn this is what I want from you" - and it needed to be worth doing. He's doing everything at liberty now but I'm slowly adding halter cues. I only see him twice a week and only get a few minutes with him so its slow until he comes home in the fall.

My new farm is a dream come true! Big pasture, an outdoor ring plenty of room for my 3 (going on 6!) Horses  I'm so very excited! I might even be getting a cat to clicker train. 

I'm eager to hear more updates from you all  happy to see people enjoying clicker work!


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## PunksTank

Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" has a really good description of the 8 ways to eliminate behaviors - it's all over the internet too. Her book is fantastic and discusses learning theory for all living creatures - including people


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## jaydee

That farm sounds amazing - just what you need.
The man I worked for had a mare that he adored, when he introduced me to her he told me that if she didn't like me if she didn't bite me when I went in she'd kick me on the way out. He was totally right too. Using physical punishment only made her much worse because rather than make her respect me it made her resent me, fear me, distrust me, dislike me - all rolled into one.
He could do anything with that horse because she 'loved him' in her own horsey way. I found that by rewarding her for 'allowing' me to be around her worked a lot better, she looked forward to seeing me and became one of the best horses I've ever had to care for


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## PunksTank

Just thought I'd share this awesome video I found  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye0mVSZ_u2U


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## AceyGrace

Hi everyone!
PR purist over here  Thought I'd join the discussion thanks to PunksTank pointing me in the right direction!

I've been working with quite a few different horses recently. A child's pony just being backed, an untouchable Exmoor pony who is coming along nicely, my own gelding who is going through his performance training and a young mare doing some basic dressage.
All are aversive free and purely positive reinforcement so I was planning on keeping people up to date as a sort of journal of their progress 
Looking forward to hearing your progress too!


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## Foxtail Ranch

That was amazing to watch! Thanks for sharing that, Punkstank. How is your new place? Are you all settled in yet?


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## PunksTank

Lovely to get to know you Acey, would love to see some of your work and adorable ponies! haha

Foxtail, thanks, everything is going wonderful, we've been here a bit more than a week and Tank loves it. So far the only place she's uncomfortable with is the top corner of the riding ring and only on real windy days. So we're working on that, but things are coming along just great!  

Rode Revel (my Belgian) for the first time in a long while and have started reducing the use of -R (which is all he's ever known) and putting more weight on our +R training. He hates riding in rings, circles just aren't his things, he likes to "go" somewhere. But we haven't found the trails yet so I'm using Clicker Training to help him enjoy ring work a bit more for now 

How is everyone else doing?


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## rookie

Well, I kinda fell off the clicker training/positive reinforcement wagon over the winter. Actually, I kinda put all wagons up for the winter and did not touch the horse. He was (no shock) a bit of a butt when I got on for the first ride of the season. I got really, really in his face about his behavior. It was out of line (spooky, refusing to back up, temper pops over things). We had one bad/good ride, he was bad but it was good because I won all battles. The problem was he started to play the "wild pony" game and I had to walk him down for the next few rides. 

I started to give treats when I catch him. He has been really good about being caught for the last few rides. We have been battling the "stand while being mounted" issue. I have been trying to be patient and today he actually stood. Not only did he stand but he stood there for at least five minutes with me on board while we waited for someone who was going to watch us work. I did let him eat some grass but not much. I know it sounds stupid but this is a huge deal to me tonight. Keep in mind that three years ago (three summers no riding in winter), this horse would rear/temper pop when asked to stand after the rider mounted. 

I do need some suggestions. He is really relaxed around the barn, a total mush on the ground and yet under saddle in the riding area/ring he is a nervous mess. He wants to go fast and faster. He is calmer riding a 20 m circle which is what we usually do. A total mess doing straight lines at the trot. I have tried using body cues to get him to have a nice slow, steady trot, he is not really responsive. I have him riding in a french link type bit (it has a thicker center piece than a french link). I am looking for suggestions on how to get him relaxed in the riding area, specifically a nice steady trot. Those that are using +R under saddle how are you doing it? I currently am treating with horse cookies should I switch to sugar and use that to reward positive behaviors? I


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## PunksTank

Rookie - I can help with that!
First off have you done any +R under saddle? I think adding some will help your horse _want_ to be ridden a bit more, if sometimes he gets reinforced for doing something, then he'll try harder and pay attention to everything. My Belgian was trained well enough to go out hacking, I never bothered training any riding behaviors, but reinforcing some simple things on the ride totally changed his mind about being ridden. It went from me being unable to get on him to him waiting for me at the mounting block. From fights about taking the bit to him picking it up himself. Just by adding clicks and treats on the ride.

His trouble is also motor-control. He just wants to GO and go anywhere, so long as it's at a poundingly fast trot. Being 19 hands and leggy that trot is no fun at all, especially bareback on rough terrain. 
So I simply started reinforcing stopping, reinforcing slow, I reinforced every downward transition. He's completely opposite in a ring, he's just dead weight and won't do anything - so now I'm reinforcing speed and upward transitions in the ring.

If you need to use circles to get that slow trot in order to reinforce it do that. I would make a circle, and just as you meet up with the track again, you'll get a slow step or two while he's just straightened out but hasn't picked up speed yet, click right there, stop and feed. Repeat the circle, each time slowly build more slow trot steps after the circle.



For the treat question, I just use hay pellets  but whatever your horse values!


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## PunksTank

Also is this attitude caused by excitement or is it fear/separation stress?

If he's nervous or uncomfortable have you thought about setting targets around the ring? or using toys that he enjoys to like his new environment a bit better? 

Tank was very afraid in our new riding arena. But she has several toys she enjoys, big plastic barrels with food on top to munch on, cones with treats underneath, tarps and plastic bags and bottles with food she has to shake out. These toys she really loves, so putting them in the ring really helped her relax in there. In fact when she sees me setting them up she gallops up to her paddock gate and waits eagerly


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## Foxtail Ranch

Hi Rookie! I use CT while riding and it is very helpful. My mare April can get very nervous sometimes which makes her go go go. When she goes faster and faster, I whoa and back her up, then we stand until I see a sign of relaxing (head down, licking lips, blowing), then CT.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch

Also, I CT when April trots with her head at whithers height and relaxes her muscles. At first it was just a stride or two, then 10 strides and now its a good 2-3 minutes. 

Lately, she will keep trotting even after I click. When she does that, I give her a "jackpot" after we whoa. She loves it! Now I am getting pickier about her form. Its been super helpful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AceyGrace

My gelding has many, many years of traditional training under his belt and he found it a little bit strange transitioning to CT. I think he couldn't figure out the game for a while lol. 
He was a gentleman's hunter before and I think was used to some quite 'hard' riding'. Now that he works for PR I can see a whole new horse  He is creative and inquisitive and loves to learn. The horse I first bought was stoic and 'deadened' to riding. Anyone else seen these personality changes in their transitioned horses?

With regard to under saddle CT, we're in the middle of a spanish walk right now which he has just started under saddle. I have a fantastic partner that I work with when I meet new clients. She tends to do the ridden work while I clicker initially so that everything becomes a little bit easier for everyone. Do you have anyone who could help you out? Eventually the rider does the clicking and treating but in the initial stages it can be a bit of a handful to CT under saddle


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## rookie

Thank you guys for your advice, I will try it and see how it goes. To Punktanks question about if he is nervous or excited. I have no real clue. He is a totally different horse under saddle than he is on the ground. On the ground he is pretty relaxed and a mush. Under-saddle he is a busy and we have had moments of "relaxation" but they were more common last fall than they were this spring. I think I will try small with rewarding relaxation.


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## AceyGrace

There are some great videos for capturing calmness in dogs that I found really useful and can be transitioned to horses very easily.

Teaching a 'settle' can be really helpful for horses going in and out of a relaxed state. 'Settle' can be cued and reinforced from the ground or saddle but I think small steps are key.

I have found using 'dog based' techniques really helpful because there is so much more out there to read up on. Just use your own judgement on how to incorporate it to your horse's training.


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## jaydee

Good to hear from you all - that was a lovely video Punks - thanks for sharing. I am very much in favour of good handling of foals from birth - I think of like playschool for children, learning in a fun way and understanding rules from the get go. It makes the whole process of riding them one day so less stressful for them
We are getting back into the work thing here, Willow is currently full of 'go' so I'm hoping she has no health set backs this year. Jazzie and Looby had managed to let themselves onto the manege a few days ago I was really amused to see Looby doing a lovely collected canter around the 'circle' - Jazzie was more occupied checking out the shrubs that grow along the fence!!
On a very sad note - I lost my darling old Flo to a very sudden illness a few weeks ago. She was and always will be my brightest star - nothing ever phased her, she did everything so willingly, honestly and enthusiastically and tried her best to stay cheerful right to the end


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## rookie

Jaydee I am sorry to hear about Flo. Horses like her, the steady eddie who try their best always are hard to find. She sounds like she was worth her weight in gold.


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## PunksTank

Oh so sorry for your loss Jaydee, just heart breaking. I'm glad you have your others to keep you busy and give you lots of snuggles.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Jaydee, I'm sorry about Flo. Horses like that are few and far between, and I know you miss her. Sounds like things are still fun at the barn though.

Punkstank, glad to hear Tank is adjusting so well and that Revel is getting some work in. He is such a cutie pie!


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## jaydee

Thanks for the kind words - though Flo was never a steady eddy - she was more of a Winnie Whizz Bang all her life!!! 
What made her great was that she was the same horse day in day out, never had a spook in her and went wherever you pointed her - though especially in her younger days it was sometimes rather too fast for comfort!!!


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## AceyGrace

I just got back to my gelding today after not seeing him for a month  When I left him at his new place he got really herd bound and was a completely different horse to the laid back, slow paced guy I know! So I was really dreading going to see him today if I’m honest :/
But it went to so well that I just had to share it with everyone lol  I free schooled him for the first time in nearly 3 months, since he got an injury and he worked really hard. We did some clicker work and he absolutely loved it. I think he missed it even though he has been lounging around for weeks like king of the field lol. I’m going to do some clicker work under saddle tomorrow and hope he impresses me even more!


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## jaydee

It's so good when things go well - the herd bound thing was probably down to insecurity in a new place. Jazzy was hysterical every time another horse was moved when we first got her and I got in touch with her previous owners for reassurance that she wasn't like it when they had her because I was so worried but they said she had done it when they bought her for a few days - and we saw exactly the same thing, by the end of the week the didn't care if she was on her own or what the other horses did


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## PunksTank

I thought I'd share this here too  Pretty excited about this, for all you who know how touchy Tank is, this is a big deal.

I finally got to get a good video of Tank's liberty bubble baths! 
When I got her just turning the hose on in her stall to fill her water buckets would send her to the other side - she wouldn't come over until the hose was gone. Outside she'd wait a safe distance away.
I started with some basic targeting the hose while off, then while on a gentle trickle, then allowing me to wet her legs with soft running water, then a mist, then a spray, then getting her belly wet and washed. Soon I could do her whole body. I used both CT and CAT at first where when she relaxed with the water on her I would click, remove the water, turn off the hose and feed. Then start again. Now sometimes I remove the water if I'm in a tricky spot, but I'll often just feed as I keep spraying. 
She's doing great - but still lets me know when she doesn't like something by walking away and circling back to me. I wish I could have caught it on camera as well, the paddock looks small without much grass, but it's open to the back paddock full of grass - she was on that when I came out, but came running over when she saw me setting up the camera. The gate stayed open the entire time, she could have walked back and gone to eat that yummy grass for free. She didn't. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMdrNAiFras&feature=youtu.be


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## jaydee

That's amazing progress - I know Tanks history - or at least quite a lot of it and no one back when you first started discussing her problems on here would have thought this was the same horse
And I love how you've got her to here.


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## PunksTank

Thanks Jaydee! It was a long road, but we've come so far.  So proud of my Tanker Truck.


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## rookie

Congrats Punks she looks great!

So, due to a mismanagement with a halter and a horse head (involving a halter that had not been removed in like 4 years) I have a brand new broken finger. I am looking for ground work suggestions for a few weeks. I tried ridding with the busted finger yesterday and it was not my best idea. Its the ring finger, which I use for breaks and turn signal. Now, I am looking for ground work suggestions. I am starting with a turn on the haunches. I have asked Harry under saddle for one and he is confused. This goes the same for on the ground. I am assuming its another one of those fantastic holes in his training. So, far I am asking for successful approximations but I want other suggestions for other things. I am thinking ground tying, a recall and some flexing but what else can you all suggest?


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## jaydee

Anything like backing up, turning, moving over and 'park and stay' are useful - I'm not big into doing anything that's not going to be useful though last year I started trying to get Looby to stand when I left her (which she would do) and then come to me when I called - for a horse that now comes to call to be caught I found the success rate not good, sometimes she would come but a lot of the time she would ignore me and look the other way as if to say 'I can't see you therefore I can't hear and obey'


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## Foxtail Ranch

If i couldnt ride, i would love to work on ground driving and long lining. You can work on collection, side passing, and refining verbal commands. Also, you could do stretches, teaching your horse how to lift his back among other things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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