# How do you know if your horse trusts you?



## thathorsegirl7 (May 14, 2014)

Hello, all. I am hoping that a lot of you can help me. Please read the whole thing; I'll give you information on myself and backround with horses as well on backround on my own horse who I'm hoping you can help me out with:
Okay, I am a girl who has always loved horses. I had a trainer who helped me break my horse, Squaw, in when we first got her. I mostly did the work from the inside, he just told me what to do. So really, I'm used to doing things myself and I'm not usually scared of horses because since 7th grade, I've seen the wide range in behavior my horse was capable of. And she's pretty nutty.
My horse, an 11 year old Paint mare named Squaw, belonged to my mom's friend's daughter. Really, they're more like family to us. So, when the daughter was younger, and Squaw was two/three, my mom's friend took her to a trainer. The lady got her all straightened out. Then, the daughter rode her, got bucked off twice, and refused to get on ever since. So, consequently, Squaw has been a pasture horse ever since then. Now, I'm getting her back to where she needs to be. I've had her since June of 2012, and I thought we'd clicked after a lot of uphill battles, but recently, I began noticing that it looks like she doesn't trust me as much as I thought.
To describe the situation: I practice Clinton Anderson's DownUnder Horsemanship. That's just me, and it's going to take a lot of convincing to change me otherwise. I've been working with her with this method since I've had her and she understands the groundwork aspect very well.
So, sometimes, when I turn my back on her, she follows me or comes to me. And other times, this is a majority of the time, she will just stay put. She doesn't move a muscle, but I was pretty sure that if a horse loved you, they'd follow you anywhere, not stay put like their feet were glued to the ground. And she doesn't let me kiss her. She's never been a fan of people rubbing on her face, and I know that that kind of stuff freaks most horses out because they don't understand, but I just want her to be kissable :/. She does things like:
-not run up from the pasture when I call for her. She usually doesn't run from me when I do go to get her, but she won't come when called.
-She doesn't nicker to me unless it's feeding time.
-She licks me a lot, but I think it's just because she likes the taste of the salt on my skin.
-She gets really crabby when I tack her up. But after that she's usually fine.
-When I go to her stall to cry, she usually doesn't stick around. When I want her comfort, she goes outside (the stall is go in and out as you please), and then comes back in occasionally, almost to "check on me".
Stuff like that.
Now, I guess what really bugs me is that she won't follow me. I mean, I just want her to love me and I want to love her. But yet, I don't want her to walk all over me and think she's in charge. I want a mutual, healthy relationship where she respects and trusts me and loves me. I hate how I feel like it's so one sided where I love her beyond words and she can't give me any in return.
So I'm curious, please tell me how you know your horse trusts you and if you have any trust exercises I could do.
Please feel free to ask any questions, I don't bite... I am just desperate for help. If you have the smallest piece of advice, please give it! Thanks so much in advance.
Note- I posted this on another forum and there were some responses on there that talked about how horses don't feel love and emotion like people do and how I'm forcing my emotions on her... I guess all I ask is that you put it gentler than that... I'm not asking you to sugarcoat it; I just want a gentle put explanation. Thanks .


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

If they do what you ask with little or no resistance even if its scary. If you do some join up techniques (Monty Roberts) they will tend to stay with you more. Spending lots of time messing and training them helps.
Different breeds are more attached so don't take it personally if she finds grass more interesting.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

First off, what your saying has nothing to do with "trust". Thanks Instagram for pulling these visions/ideas into people's head. 

Don't take your horses behavior personally. She just doesn't seems like a "wam and fuzzy" kinda girl, plain and simple. Instagram and fantasy portry a large animal who comes over to "comfort" you when you cry or run to you in the paddock. That's a small margin of horses, and likely it's a trained or conditioned behavior. 

Does your horse go past scary things when ask? Is she respect your space? Do what you say? If so then you likely have her respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thathorsegirl7 (May 14, 2014)

churumbeque- elaborate a little more on how exactly you do this, please?
SlideStop- Really, it depends. She does respect my space to an extent. When I'm around her hindquarters, she'll shift for me. But if I walk into her shoulder, I really have to shove her hard. She walks past scary objects most of the time, but there's always that flight or fight instinct where some days she won't. But, she always does what she asks unless we're training a new concept where I have to teach to her. Does that make sense?


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

You two are like a next gen of me and my mare. I did same as you and got a green broke horse when I was 13, though I didn't have a trainer. It has taken many years, but once I learned the correct way to do things, had the lead mare position and got her respecting me, then she has finally opened up and allowed me to do things like hug her. However, it was also partly training her not to pull away when I hugged her. A lot of it is (after gaining respect of horse, meaning you have "lead mare" position) repetition and getting the horse used to all of that mushy stuff.

It is true that me and my mare have a bond, that she is "in my pocket" and trusts me like no other, but that has taken proper training to reach that point. It is not a matter of the horse saying "I'm going to listen to you because I love you". It needs to be "I am going to obey you because I respect your position of lead mare". There is no question for me that my horse feels emotions, and that she trusts and loves me. It is an obvious fact and many people have pointed it out. That doesn't mean that she doesn't challenge me though. All it takes is one time of me backing down or yielding to her (ex. I ask her to do something, she responds with an action equivalent of no, and I give in and stop asking) and my sweet "puppydog" mare will turn into a total mean raving b*tch, for lack of a better word. Every day, with the little things, we have our mare spats and I establish my authority. This is herd dynamics. In the herd mares test each other every day for a higher position.

Your mare *can* love you, but she needs to *respect you first*. As a dressage trainer I apprenticed for said, "she can love you without respecting you". The thing with horses is you can't bring emotion into the equation. You need to establish full authority on the ground and in the saddle, and then as you progress, do more things together, spend more time together, it will happen naturally. My mare has really bonded with me since I am living on the property with her and see her many times a day. This gives me more time to establish my authority, deepen the trust, and spend time together. However, my mare does not want to be around me if I let her have turnout 24/7 with the other mare. A few days ago, she was literally herding the other horse away from me while I was trying to catch one of them. They were running away from me. So I separated them into separate stalls again, and then yesterday like magic my mare startled me by actually trotting up to see me when I went into the stall to clean. She had been without her fly mask and was all for me putting it on :lol:

Then, last night, I grabbed my helmet and bridle and hopped on bareback to walk around the arena. I didn't have any of my crops or whips with me since I was just going to walk. She was practically "babysitting" me, refusing to even jog, acting like a kids horse (she is a show jumper-so not a kids horse!). Now while I'd like to think that she was thinking "If I go faster than a walk she will fall off because there is no saddle, so I'm going to ignore her and protect her by just walking instead." In reality it's more like "her balance isn't as good bareback and she tends to slide, and has less control so I can get away with being lazy". You see? It was more a matter of that she had not been trained to do all 3 gaits bareback than it was of her looking out for me.

I would recommend that you work with a very good trainer who believes in a lot of ground work, and establish your training curriculum from more than just one trainer. I take bits and pieces from everything and apply it as I see fit. My version of natural horsemanship is watching how horses interact with each other, observing the way they communicate their thoughts and demands to one another, and then applying that knowledge to create a training exercise. For instance, if I tell my mare that I want her to trot, or get out of my way, and she ignores me, then I smack her with the whip. That is the same thing as her ignoring another horse, so the other horse may kick at her or actually lay a kick on her to get their point across.

All this mumbo jumbo about natural horsemanship being the way to train your horse using thoughts and feelings is not right. Natural horsemanship is communicating to the horse what you are asking in ways that are similar to the way that horses communicate with each other. Basically, you have to learn to speak their language :wink:

P.S. I find that in ground work, using a dressage whip to tap the horse when they refuse to move (asking to move the shoulder and they don't, so you tap the shoulder) is very useful.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It appears you have the same expectations of your horse that you get from a dog. Horses aren't kissy cuddly, and most barely tolerate having their face touched, especially if you wrap an arm around it's nose. A horse finds this confining. Horses respect leadership so if you are having sad moments, the horse sees this as weakness and may not stick around. From now on, when you do anything with your horse, walk with all the confidence of a soldier.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> It appears you have the same expectations of your horse that you get from a dog. Horses aren't kissy cuddly, and most *barely tolerate having their face touched, especially if you wrap an arm around it's nose*. A horse finds this confining. Horses respect leadership so if you are having sad moments, the horse sees this as weakness and may not stick around. From now on, when you do anything with your horse, walk with all the confidence of a soldier.


Actually, my horse loves it when I stand the same way she is facing and put my arm around her nose and then rub her head with my other hand. I guess we're oddballs? :wink:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thathorsegirl7 said:


> Hello, all. I am hoping that a lot of you can help me. Please read the whole thing; I'll give you information on myself and backround with horses as well on backround on my own horse who I'm hoping you can help me out with:
> Okay, I am a girl who has always loved horses. I had a trainer who helped me break my horse, Squaw, in when we first got her. I mostly did the work from the inside, he just told me what to do. So really, I'm used to doing things myself and I'm not usually scared of horses because since 7th grade, I've seen the wide range in behavior my horse was capable of. And she's pretty nutty.
> My horse, an 11 year old Paint mare named Squaw, belonged to my mom's friend's daughter. Really, they're more like family to us. So, when the daughter was younger, and Squaw was two/three, my mom's friend took her to a trainer. The lady got her all straightened out. Then, the daughter rode her, got bucked off twice, and refused to get on ever since. So, consequently, Squaw has been a pasture horse ever since then. Now, I'm getting her back to where she needs to be. I've had her since June of 2012, and I thought we'd clicked after a lot of uphill battles, but recently, I began noticing that it looks like she doesn't trust me as much as I thought.
> To describe the situation: I practice Clinton Anderson's DownUnder Horsemanship. That's just me, and it's going to take a lot of convincing to change me otherwise. I've been working with her with this method since I've had her and she understands the groundwork aspect very well.
> ...


my thoughts in red.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Like others have said, you will have the horse’s trust when it will do things that it probably wouldn’t go doing if you weren’t asking it to do them.

I would strongly recommend you forget all this horse loving you and comforting you stuff, they just don’t have the neurological equipment to do that sort of stuff, and they are prey animals and they will respond as a prey animal would to confinement, closeness to others (specially humans as we are predatory animals, we have eyes on the front of our face for example) and they will react to your movements in and out of its comfort zone in a similar way they would to another horse. Horses just don’t have the physiological wherewithal to feel emotions like humans can, or react in ways a human, or a little more complex animal, than a horse, could. 

If you are doing the Clinton Anderson stuff I’m sure there are ways to build trust in it, I’m not familiar with his gear but from what I have seen it’s pretty much the same as the rest of them in principal. I learned the old fashioned Parelli stuff (its dawning on me now just how different the old stuff is to the new) anyway there are these games, I never learned them, what I was taught to do was make up my own games, based on the principals of what Parelli’s games are built up from. 

For example. I would get a horse to a point where I could lunge it around me in a circle, stop it smoothly and have it face me, then lunge it the other way and stop it again all nice and smooth. That’s just the beginning. Once that was decent I would go looking for little challenges for the horse to do. Start off small, get the horse to step over a small log, or walk between you and a fence. Get it to step over a gully in the paddock or something. Once each of these things are good, increase the level of difficulty slowly. And here’s the bit that gets the horse learning to trust you. Only give the horse a challenge you KNOW it can get right at each level. What this means is don’t go getting the horse to step over a small log, then next ask it to jump up a 4 foot high embankment or something. Get it to step over the log, next, find a slightly bigger log and get it to step over that, then one a bit bigger to the point it actually has to start jumping over it, then bigger till it needs a good running start and has to really jump. Build it all up slow and only what the horse can achieve at each step of the way. The range of things you can do is only limited by your imagination and what you can find lying around. Then, the same principal applies to what you do in the saddle. 

All the horses I have trained were used for stock work and had to be pretty well rounded, deal with jumping on and off trucks, horse floats, deal with motorbikes, and even helicopters flying very close to them, and had to be able to handle all sorts of terrain, including swimming across flooded creeks all while working cattle that could be anything from nice and quiet to ferrel cleanskin cattle, and I found the method I just described above to give them a good start for the work they do with a rider on their back. Of my own horses, the ones I owned and trained to a really fairly high level, they would do just about anything for me, I used to test them by standing in front to the stockman’s quarters wherever I was working and get them to jump up on the veranda, walk into the front door then come back out again and down off the veranda, usually while I had the stereo or TV really loud, if they did that I figured they trusted me OK. The trick is to build it slowly, and not overload the horse with work, and that might mean just leaving the thing alone if you aren’t asking something specific of it.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you allow the horse to lick you, yet she will move her hindquarters away as you move behind her, there is something wrong with this picture. It's called being inconsistent. In anything you've seen or read CA does not allow the horse into his space, a circle he inscribes in the dirt with his stick. That means the nose or any other body part doesn't enter this circle. You can move into the horse's space but never is it to come in to yours. This establishes respect. Quit concerning yourself about whether or not the horse loves you. Win it's respect first and be consistent, and you will enjoy the rewards this will bring.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I know a horse trusts me when they do exactly what I say when I say it. For example: My old mare had never been ridden on a highway and certainly not over long distances. During a search and rescue the only path I could possibly take was a two mile trek along the shoulder of a highway. My mare plodded along like a saint when I told her to and never batted an eye. That's trust in the leader in my book. 

That being said it takes time and gaining it is as individualistic for the horse as anything else. My gelding took me 10+ years to get that trust. The colt I work with now, well he was easier. My point is that I don't believe it's anything that 'training' can teach it just sorta happens. Respect comes first, then trust. 

As for her not coming when called, most horses DON'T. Mine do occasionally but other than that they stand there and laugh I as hoof it out to them. Her not liking kisses or being 'touchy-feely' that's also okay. That's that horse. You have to accept that that individual just is not into that.

My gelding is very touchy-feely. He loves and adores the attention and the cuddles and returns it. BUT he has respect for my space, and trust that as his leader I won't put him in danger. I agree with the above posters as well.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

It sounds to me like you need to ride your horse, and buy a dog. 

Of the 16 horses on our place I would say only 1 of them will even come out of the back corner of there stall to see me unless they want something, let alone come running across the pasture. As far as following me around the round pen, that gets annoying pretty quick when you are trying to get something done.

Horses do not love people, they tolerate, us and do what we ask because they have been selectively bred to do so, you will find horses that follow their owners around, hell I have a pasture full of cows that will follow me around while I fix fence, because they assume I might feed them. 

What you are asking has nothing to do with trust. Trust is doing what you ask when you ask, because your horse knows you will take care of it in a scary situation.

Jim


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## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

Totally off topic here, but I wondered if other people on this forum have an issue with the name of OP's mare? It is considered to be a very disrespectful name for a First Nations woman. Maybe think about a different name?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thats true. 

now this is also off topic, but do "first Nations" people call themselves that?

If you go to a PowWow, all the Native people there call themselves Indians. it's not a dirty word. once they asked me if I was Indian. I took it as a compliment, but I am totally European, as far as I know.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

thathorsegirl7 said:


> churumbeque- elaborate a little more on how exactly you do this, please?
> SlideStop- Really, it depends. She does respect my space to an extent. When I'm around her hindquarters, she'll shift for me. But if I walk into her shoulder, I really have to shove her hard. She walks past scary objects most of the time, but there's always that flight or fight instinct where some days she won't. But, she always does what she asks unless we're training a new concept where I have to teach to her. Does that make sense?


I would suggest watching some of the shows on RFD TV or HRTV of Chris Cox, Monty Roberts(join Up), Ken Mcnabb, etc. Maybe attending some horsemanship clinics as an auditor, reading some books, watching videos. It is learned over time and I could never express good info in a post.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

autumn rain said:


> Totally off topic here, but I wondered if other people on this forum have an issue with the name of OP's mare? It is considered to be a very disrespectful name for a First Nations woman. Maybe think about a different name?


I guess I should change the name of my black gelding I bought whos name was *****. or how about the white pointer we had named cracker? seriously!?!

Jim


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> I guess I should change the name of my black gelding I bought whos name was *****. or how about the white pointer we had named cracker? seriously!?!
> 
> Jim


my neighbors horses registered name is "gwen tr baby"

affectionately known as *******


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## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

Hmmm, interesting; it may just be regional differences; First Nations is definitely the term we use as being respectful; don't want to judge, just a question; we each have our own tolerances and ideas about what is appropriate.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

​​
 _squaw _comes from a language of the Algonquian family in which it​meant "woman.'' Unfortunately it seems to have become a derogatory term.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I will try to answer your questions.
_


thathorsegirl7 said:



I practice Clinton Anderson's DownUnder Horsemanship...I've been working with her with this method since I've had her and she understands the groundwork aspect very well... 
-She gets really crabby when I tack her up. But after that she's usually fine.

Click to expand...

_If you use CA you would know that he doesn't tolerate a horse being crabby when tacked up. This is disobedience and needs to be dealt with before you are bitten or kicked.
_


thathorsegirl7 said:



So, sometimes, when I turn my back on her, she follows me or comes to me. And other times, this is a majority of the time, she will just stay put. She doesn't move a muscle, but I was pretty sure that if a horse loved you, they'd follow you anywhere, not stay put like their feet were glued to the ground. And she doesn't let me kiss her. She's never been a fan of people rubbing on her face, and I know that that kind of stuff freaks most horses out because they don't understand, but I just want her to be kissable :/.

Click to expand...

_Kissing your horse is tempting but a horse that doesn't like it will eventually smack you in the face and hurt YOU. Avoid it with this mare.
_


thathorsegirl7 said:



-She doesn't nicker to me unless it's feeding time.
-She licks me a lot, but I think it's just because she likes the taste of the salt on my skin.

Click to expand...

_My 8yo QH, "Buster Brown" has a bad habit of licking. _Sometimes_ I let him do it, but my DD's won't. It is a habit, probably from lacking salt at some point in his life before ME, but a horse has big teeth and a very strong jaw and you will eventually be bitten, so don't let her. Just say, "no."
_


thathorsegirl7 said:



I am just desperate for help. If you have the smallest piece of advice, please give it! Thanks so much in advance.

Click to expand...

_I can see that you want an animal to love you. I own two dogs that adore me. HOWEVER, they live and sleep inside the house, have barn chores to do every day, and I am ALWAYS training them--never satisfied--and they see ME as the pack leader. I do not let them lay in my way, or take food from the table or help themselves to my hens or baby chicks, or run off chasing a rabbit or run after my neighbors who take walks on the street past my house. I expect them to come when called and to sit/stay when I ask, like when we are outside and somebody drives up or walks to my door. If they do NOT listen, I retrain immediately and then they obey the next time.
*You MUST establish leadership with every animal that you own.* 
I can take food, even a kill away from either of my dogs bc I am the leader and I have disciplined everything that they have done in their 7 years of life with me. I can do the same with my horses and I am never satistifed with THEIR training, either.
*You MUST discipline your horse.* She is SO MUCH LARGER and STRONGER than you are. A little kick or bite won't hurt another horse but WILL break your arm or send you to the ER for stitches.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

autumn rain said:


> Totally off topic here, but I wondered if other people on this forum have an issue with the name of OP's mare? It is considered to be a very disrespectful name for a First Nations woman. Maybe think about a different name?


I'm half native american and don't have a problem with it. Heck one of my horses was named Red, another Indian, and another 'Red Chief'. It's just a name. My only problem would be if there was a derogatory sentiment that the person attached to the name. 

I also worked with a horse called 'Nazi'. I took no offense (even though I'm half german too lol) to that one either as he really had the same temperament! :lol: 

It's just a word and in my mind is only as derogatory and degrading as you want it to be.


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## thathorsegirl7 (May 14, 2014)

Wow, a lot has went on between school and track practice. Haha, so to begin, may I just say, thank you everyone already for your help. I feel really pathetic... I don't mean to treat her like a dog. I guess I didn't even realize I was. I just was reading some of what other people's written, like horseluvr2524, and some people's horses actually enjoy all that kind of attention and I thought there was something wrong with her like she just hates being around me. Which sometimes I feel like she does. I also want her to enjoy her time around me when I go to train/ride... I don't want her to totally dislike me as a whole because that's no fun for me or her.
And as for the issue on the name, I've never met anyone who's had a problem with that before. Her dam's name is Reds Sunny Pawnee. Her name is Squaw... She's just always had that name. I never thought it was offensive. And I'm sorry if it does.


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## thathorsegirl7 (May 14, 2014)

I hope you all don't think I'm ignorant and shouldn't own a horse, either... I'm young and still learning.. I never have claimed to "know all".


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## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

OP you are not pathetic at all! You reached out for help and a lively discussion was launched. That's how we all learn. It's amazing how varying perspectives can make you rethink your own beliefs and opinions. I'm thinking right now! LOL


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> It sounds to me like you need to ride your horse, and buy a dog.
> 
> Of the 16 horses on our place I would say only 1 of them will even come out of the back corner of there stall to see me unless they want something, let alone come running across the pasture. _*As far as following me around the round pen, that gets annoying pretty quick when you are trying to get something done.*_
> 
> ...


That all depends on how you want to train your horse. For you, it's annoying. For me, it is my horse showing me respect as the lead mare. Natural horsemanship is assuming the position, and majority of the duties, of a lead mare. Today, I worked both horses. My horse I did ground work with, and we had a little spat on the lunge, after that she once again acknowledged me as lead mare. Then I unclipped the lead rope and we did free hand ground work. I got her following me using hand signals to tell her what speed and even trotting over a low jump together. If you want to train your horse to not follow you and stand unless told otherwise, that is fine. A lot of driving horses are trained that way. There is nothing wrong with it. For me, I want my horse to follow me until I _tell_ her to stand (we are still working on this. The cue: "stand" :lol. However, since I have no one to help me when practicing jumping, she has also learned to stand while I go a few feet away leaving her unattended to fix the jumps. 90% of the time, no problem, she stands there.

Now the other mare, my mom's horse, is much less touchy feely. She was raised and trained a ranch horse, and it has taken her a while to accept things like carrots and my mother hugging her. I think, for the majority of horses, if you want to hug them, hold their face, etc. it is a trained behavior. My horse wasn't _always_ totally OK with me doing that. Now because I have trained her to, she will accept it, and actually enjoys getting her head rubs. I don't mind my mare being a "sweet puppy dog". However, the "sweet puppy dog" cannot (nor will I allow her to) forget that she _is a *horse*_. I have rules and boundaries set, and she will get her a** whooped if she messes with me, the lead mare. One of those rules is that I can get into her space and get as lovey dovey and touchy feely as I want. But if she tries it with me, I will really get after her. I have to initiate contact, not her.

It has taken *endless hours, lots of patience, having a "lead mare" authority, and even more time* to get to where I am today with my mare. We do have a special bond, but it didn't magically happen. And every day, every moment I am with her, I reaffirm my position and remind her of the boundaries and rules. I think most people, and most trainers, prefer to train their horse to be simply a show animal, work animal, etc. They may not have the desire for the horse to become "special" with them, because they have so many others to work as well. Then somebody buys the horse, and wants that kind of relationship, and doesn't realize that it is more a way of training the horse than it is a "magical bond".

Simply, if you want this relationship, be prepared for a lot of work and putting in a lot of time, and realize that this really is a matter of retraining the horse.


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## Notanequestrian98 (Apr 25, 2014)

I agree with all the other posters. Your mares personality is just different than another horse. She's a mare lol mares tend to be a little bit less lovey-dovey than geldings. It can go both ways though. My gelding is an "in your pocket" horse, but he used to be so stinkin' disrespectful, and I didn't realize it. He was TOO much of a lovey-dovey horse. Eventually, they start to realize things about you and can push you around. They can realize that since you're letting them (for example) lick you all over the place and take a nibble on your hair, they can boss you around because you don't know how to establish boundaries just yet. Not every case of this turns out that way, but it was with my gelding. But now, once I realized how disrespectful he was, I took a stand and became the "lead mare," or the "alpha." Now he is a much more respectful horse. Your mare isn't an "in your pocket" type of horse. It's not that she doesn't have any interest in you, it's just her personality. So don't take all of her behavior personally. Every horse is different. If you want her to be more of a lovey-dovey horse, it'll take so much time. Maybe even take a day or two without training/riding her. Let her know that every time you put her halter on, she doesn't always have to work. Just sit there and groom her for HOURS. I do that all the time with my gelding, and it really does create some bonding. 
That's just my input on that, people may disagree with me. Hope that helped.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

my filly just now starts coming up to the fence to see what i am doing now
she will stand there for a while hoping to get some scratches

it took nearly a year to get that far ... patience is your best friend


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Incitatus32 said:


> I know a horse trusts me when they do exactly what I say when I say it. For example: My old mare had never been ridden on a highway and certainly not over long distances. During a search and rescue the only path I could possibly take was a two mile trek along the shoulder of a highway. My mare plodded along like a saint when I told her to and never batted an eye. That's trust in the leader in my book.
> 
> That being said it takes time and gaining it is as individualistic for the horse as anything else. My gelding took me 10+ years to get that trust. The colt I work with now, well he was easier. My point is that I don't believe it's anything that 'training' can teach it just sorta happens. Respect comes first, then trust.
> 
> ...


Everything here.

Some horses are touchy-feeling and like interacting with people. Some are all business. It sounds like your mare is an all-business sort of girl, while what you want is a touchy-feely critter. Accept her for who she is, that she is going to be happiest and like your interactions best if you knock off the mushy stuff, and she might surprise you by being a little more willing to hang about on an occasional basis. As it is, she probably feels like you're Aunt Mabel, always trying to hug her and kiss her and grab her cheek.

That doesn't mean she doesn't trust you, or that she doesn't like you. It just means that your two personalities might not match up exactly. I *get* wanting a horse that seems to want to be with you, which is why when I go horse shopping, that is a "must have" item on the list. If you won't be happy unless you have an in-your-pocket horse, you may just need a new horse.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

autumn rain said:


> Totally off topic here, but I wondered if other people on this forum have an issue with the name of OP's mare? It is considered to be a very disrespectful name for a First Nations woman. Maybe think about a different name?


Groan......
There are a lot of horse out there with Native American influenced names. It is not meant as an insult by 99.9999999999999% of the people.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Well when I first went to see him from the sale ad, he walked right up to me (he was out in their front yard) and gently put his head down and rested it against my chest. 

Whenever I go out to get him from the pasture he comes over to me.

But really, I had a special moment with him yesterday. I brought him out to get lunged and while I was standing and talking to my trainer he gently rested his head against mine and just let out this long happy sigh and his eyes fluttered closed.

I mean... he's just so awesome!


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## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

Dustbunny, I'm sure most people don't "mean"any disrespect, but if it offends a group of people, then it's disrespectful, irregardless of the intent. Just like your groan could be taken the wrong way, when I was only asking a question.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

If you want your horse to come up when called, there is a trick:

We always call our (free-ranging) horses when "bucket o'clock" is a little earlier than usual. They see the white buckets and come running. Eventually they didn't need to see the buckets. Occasionally we call them when we just don't want to walk all that way to catch them. They come thinking there might be food. Because I want them to come when called I encourage this and give them a small bit of carrot each, as a "consolation prize" so to speak (there really has to be something in it for them - and it's how they do movie stuff like Gandalf calling the white stallion across the fields in Lord of the Rings), and then do whatever I needed them to be up at the house for: Hoof trim, vet visit, riding, whatever. It saves me a lot of walking. It's a bit like the principle of Muellerian mimicry in nature: Most insects with red/orange markings are poisonous and advertise this to potential predators via this colour. Some red/orange insects are not poisonous but successfully mimic the poisonous group to keep predators away. The thing is, the proportion of mimics to poisonous insects has to be relatively small, or the trick stops working. Likewise, you can't call horses up and then disappoint them too often if you want them to keep coming. ;-)

If you want a touchy-feely horse, try an Arabian - some Arabians prefer people to horses, no doubt helped by the close association the nomadic Middle Eastern tribes had with this horse during the development of the breed. My mare often did come up from the herd spontaneously just to see me and hob-nob, not just to check out my pockets.

I don't kiss my horses - I reserve that for my husband. ;-) I think a horse would probably find that quite icky anyway. A horse likes a good scratch on an itchy spot.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

horseluvr2524 said:


> One of those rules is that I can get into her space and get as lovey dovey and touchy feely as I want. But if she tries it with me, I will really get after her. I have to initiate contact, not her.


I have never discouraged a horse from initiating friendly contact with me, only unfriendly or pushy contact. I guess we have different training philosophies: I don't see myself as a horse, alpha or otherwise, but as "the monkey" and my horses understand that monkey rules are not always the same as horse rules! ;-)

I've trained horses for over 30 years now, after an initial strong grounding with the first horse I educated in Aussie legend Tom Roberts' training principles, based on quiet calm persistence, using your brain, understanding the horse's point of view, and the simple lesson / end of lesson principle. I like Tom Roberts' approach because it's not based on any particular models or theories, just commonsense and experience of what works, and it's a method that doesn't expect the respect just to be a one-way street, thereby fostering wonderfully cooperative and rewarding working relationships with horses. Problem horses were Roberts' speciality, and I really never came across a problem training a horse that Roberts hadn't already written remedies about in the four slim volumes he wrote when his age and physical condition resulted in him having to spend more time indoors. 

My most challenging re-training was my current riding horse, who had a ****** of a temper after 11 years as a stallion kept solo, after being born with a grumpy streak in the first place. He was gelded so I could transition him into a natural free-ranging herd life, since he was frustrated from social deprivation, and I spent a lot of time riding him so he would have an outlet for his abundant energy. He was always cooperative and keen to work and see the world when ridden, just a ****** on the ground to begin with and needed lots of remedial ground training.

I remember early on how he used to do his "Jaws" impersonation whenever I mounted or dismounted: Turn around and threaten to bite! This problem was easily solved by verbal discouragement and keeping the reins tight and his head slightly bent away from me. I didn't see any need to wallop him over that (and other people who had tried that tactic didn't find it successful, and this sort of thing can set up a mutual hatred between a particularly spirited horse and a human) - the point is to discourage the behaviour, which the trick with the bit did more than adequately, and encourage good behaviour immediately it happens. I'm not interested in power tussles with horses, I just invent ways to encourage and discourage behaviour that aren't based on getting rough _or_ overly bribing a horse - in assertive rather than passive or aggressive responses. The horse didn't take that long to drop that particular behaviour, and other undesirable behaviour. Neither he nor I got hurt in his re-training, and I'm really happy with him - a nice reliable riding horse who no longer eats people or other horses - and he with me - I'm not such a bad monkey after all. ;-) This was never a touchy-feely horse, but he's surprised me lately by developing a distinctly soft streak and actually wanting to hob-nob when not working (he loves to work). He is also showing an aptitude for learning party tricks, like picking up sticks or holding up a towel or other suitable objects on request.

Some photos from the re-training days:




















And some poor souls think riding motorbikes is more fun. :lol: I love riding horses in part because they're not automatons, and you need to get their cooperation first. How boring would it be if a horse was like a robot!


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

> I hope you all don't think I'm ignorant and shouldn't own a horse, either... I'm young and still learning.. I never have claimed to "know all".


 You are fine.  Everyone here started from the ground up at one time or another, and judging by your responses you genuinely _want_ to learn. That says a lot already.


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## Nocturva (Mar 23, 2013)

All I can say from my own experience was when I first got my OTTB, we did not bond or even click at all, he used to dance everytime i brushed him in the crossties and test me constantly, and I was very weak minded at the time as he was my first horse.

About 6 months into ownership we started forming a kind of "Agreement" there was no lovey dovey during this period. but he started coming to me in the paddock away from his buddies which is a compliment and following me and stopped when i stopped.

After 1 year, he follows me without guidance from a lead rope, he likes to play with me out in the pasture, and loves to trot side by side with my boyfriend while I ride. I think the key is doing random entertaining things like this from time to time, I let him walk around the barn as a treat really, and running side by side with my boyfriend with no encouragement from me while riding is hilarious but as soon as my boyfriend stopped "playing" when I asked him to trot he was immediately lazy and bored. But I spend time grooming him at what he likes (he's super thinned skin and isn't afraid to let me know) So a lot of time goes into being sensitive with him as well, when I ride though I'm not much of a fighter but like an encouraging parent? I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it.

But anyway all I'm saying is that he became more tolerant to me, realizing I was the lead in the herd, he is affectionate but still doesnt like me touching his head at all unless he wants me to be his scratching post which I discourage. but I'm content with this, as all of this has just developed within one year of owning him, I can't wait to see what 8-10 years looks like.

Don't focus on all the likes and dislikes, keep doing what youre doing and it will all come to you at a time.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I haven't read all the posts but there seems to be some confusion between trust and respect - trust is when a horse allows you to do things with it even though its afraid of doing them - or will go where you point it even though its afraid because you are the leader that will protect it and not because it knows its going to get punished if it disobeys


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I haven't read all the posts but there seems to be some confusion between trust and respect - trust is when a horse allows you to do things with it even though its afraid of doing them - or will go where you point it even though its afraid because you are the leader that will protect it and not because it knows its going to get punished if it disobeys


There's no confusion. the former is a function of the latter.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

SueC said:


> If you want your horse to come up when called, there is a trick:
> 
> We always call our (free-ranging) horses when "bucket o'clock" is a little earlier than usual. They see the white buckets and come running. Eventually they didn't need to see the buckets. Occasionally we call them when we just don't want to walk all that way to catch them. They come thinking there might be food. Because I want them to come when called I encourage this and give them a small bit of carrot each, as a "consolation prize" so to speak (there really has to be something in it for them - and it's how they do movie stuff like Gandalf calling the white stallion across the fields in Lord of the Rings), and then do whatever I needed them to be up at the house for: Hoof trim, vet visit, riding, whatever. It saves me a lot of walking. It's a bit like the principle of Muellerian mimicry in nature: Most insects with red/orange markings are poisonous and advertise this to potential predators via this colour. Some red/orange insects are not poisonous but successfully mimic the poisonous group to keep predators away. The thing is, the proportion of mimics to poisonous insects has to be relatively small, or the trick stops working. Likewise, you can't call horses up and then disappoint them too often if you want them to keep coming. ;-)
> 
> ...


i do something similar --- at feeding time i let them into my front yard while i gather and fill buckets ---- when it is time for them to go back and eat --- i whistle ..... if they were never in the front yard, i whistle to call them

now when i whistle -- they all come, food or no food


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## thathorsegirl7 (May 14, 2014)

Okay, everyone, sorry for lack of posting. School was finishing up and I had finals and they loaded us down with homework! So if I went to the barn and came home, I was up til 11 doing homework! Gosh! School!
So an update on my progress:
Apparently, licking was a big no-no with a lot of people on here. I cut that behavior out. Whenever she attempts, I just nonchalantly push her head away.
She's actually began to run up from her pasture when she sees me coming! When I whistle, she runs up. She's caught on though, that if I come with my halter, we mean business. Now, our "land" that I board on is cut into two sections: a paddock area, and a pasture area, which at night we close her and my pony into the paddock at night just because that's a part of our board agreement that the horses only get so much pasture in a day. So, knowing that backround, it'll make more sense when I say that she runs up to see me from the pasture, where I stand in her stall with my halter and lead rope, and then she'll trot outside into the paddock area and make me get her there. I am pretty grateful for this, and it is a step in the right direction because she used to full out run from me in her actual pasture part, and make me wait for her to relax for a minute before I could approach her.
Also, she just seems more respectful of me all around. Thank you all very very much!  Keep the comments, coming though! Always willing to learn! 
P.S.- We have a show Tuesday... Wish us luck that I don't get bucked off like last year... Haha! Hoping that this new respect and trust gets us going past scary objects. Although, I must say, she actually is really chill about like plastic bags and umbrellas... They don't really scare her at all... But anyways, luck and prayers for us would be great. This is a big leap. Thank you all SO SO SO much!!


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't know the magic formula. I've owned 2 gelings and a mare. I would like to think I treated them all the same. I bonded with the 2 geldings and NOT with the mare. After a year I sold her on.

Spend as much time with your horse as you can. That helps the bonding. My current guys gives me a huge whinny and comes when called even tho it may mean a work out session in the arena. 

As others have said. Be the boss, be consistant in your traing/approach/treatment of horse.

You will know when you have trust when you can get your horse to do something scary he clearly does not want to do. Like cross a creek, or go over a scary wooden bridge. Then when they do it and you give them praise, they get happy and all prancy. Surprise! You just gave your pony more confidence. 

Oh I dunno. I think I've know a few horses who more than 'tolerated' their owners.

yeah in the 21st century PC world squaw is now a bad word. As long as you are polite about it when someone brings it up (and they will like here), who cares? you didn't name her.


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