# Behind the Vertical?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I suspect you are too much in his mouth and your hands too active. Hard to tell but I suspect to that he is behind the leg and not actively seeking contact for himself. His neck looks too short and cranked down, poll isn't the highest point and his nose behind what would be the vertical line. A full body picture would be better. Nose also looks tipped to the side.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

A video would be best but I dont think he looked cranked down or short in the neck at all or that his poll isnt the highest point. I dont think his nose is too tucked in.

I think from the photo alone he looks fine but cant see much. No danger of rolkur at all.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

He is ducking his head too much. Not sure what level you are riding at, but this horse needs to be much more forward. 

Your horse's nose is at 1235 and needs to be no more than at 1225 (on a clock) at beginning levels (training - first) I would rather see the horse's nose at 1220 

More leg, less hand...


Will add I suspect from the rein angle that your hands are too low


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Can I suggest before doing much of anything different you put bit loops on the full-cheek bit you use so it is positioned correctly in the animals mouth.
It makes a difference and he may carry himself as this picture shows to evade bit pressure...his means of escape.

To me, if you put a ruler down the flat face and look at the angle...he is behind the vertical.
The rest of why and how he is carrying himself is lost without a full body also shown.

Be careful with the heat and humidity level...
For you and for the horses stay well hydrated and make sure the horses are very well cooled down after midday rides.
It is brutal in the sun as you know... 
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> Can I suggest before doing much of anything different you put bit loops on the full-cheek bit you use so it is positioned correctly in the animals mouth.
> It makes a difference and he may carry himself as this picture shows to evade bit pressure...his means of escape.
> 
> To me, if you put a ruler down the flat face and look at the angle...he is behind the vertical.
> ...


I have actually switched him into a Dee ring snaffle since this picture was taken, only about 2 days ago. 

So what I’m getting from all the responses is loosen the reins and add more leg to fix his frame? I’m going out tonight to ride so I can try that later. 

Also, the heat is awful. I swear this is the worst it’s been. I’ve started only riding at 6 am and 6 pm to try and avoid having a heat stroke! 

Also I know this is kind of hijacking my own thread, but if anyone is wondering, Bee will now only pull back if someone other then me tacks him up. But when I go to ride he is completely relaxed and fine.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

You don't loosen the reins to teach them to come up to contact. How are they supposed to learn to take your hand forward if your hand disappears at a critical moment?

You lighten the hand, invite them forward, kinda like pushing the mouth forward with the reins without losing the contact. No backward pull. All this accompanied by a supporting leg and seat.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I know those with more expertise than I have answered already, but wouldn't you find it important to show his back in order to show whether or not he is "hollow"? I'd look whether his spine is sagging and/or whether his feet are under him (as opposed to in front and behind him). In any case, putting his head in a certain position does not prevent hollowness.

On my trail with Hamlet, there is a steep logging road we need to go up - according to Google Earth the steepest gradient is 33% there. He's on the buckle, his neck is stretched and his head is low, but I promise you that he's not hollow because I can feel him pushing himself up that hill. (I, on the other hand, am body-surfing him in two-point...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hmm...well, proper frame for what? It looks like you are riding in a jumping saddle, and I believe you were showing video of yourself jumping him.
You're going to want a horse working on jumping to be looking forward toward the jump, and to have the ability to stretch his head and neck forward. This is not the same frame that is used for dressage. You want to work on the ability to shorten and lengthen strides, but the horse needs to see where he is going.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, a horse trotting up a 10% grade will have a 50:50 weight distribution on his own.

The maximum deflection in a horse's spine is about 2.5 inches, and that is the point at which the back breaks. To get that much deflection, they had to remove the spine and use weights, flexing it in both directions. Horses will do whatever it takes to try to keep their spines within a narrower range of motion. If they fail, they die.

"Hollow" is best thought of as "braced" - muscles tensed to prevent too much sag due to the rider's weight. There is also a natural carriage, where the horse's back is flowing. Collection is harder work than natural carriage, with the horse lifting at the withers and tucking under with the pelvis. A horse can do each of these with its head vertical, in front, or behind.








Remember, a horse's best vision comes in a narrow band. It has to raise or lower its nose to bring things at varying distances into it best vision. "Looking ahead" and "Hollow" are not the same thing.

https://www.rodnikkel.com/content/i...yup-riding-a-horse-does-make-his-back-extend/


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

It's definitely hard to tell without a full body picture, but It does look like your horse is holding his head in and your hands look like the may be low? So, too much hand and not enough leg/ seat. 


To get him working over his back, I suggest thinking "up and out" with your hands. When he ducks his nose in, lift your hands, add leg + driving seat, and let him bring your hands forward. Reward any small improvement. I also suggest doing this in small durations, then allowing him to stretch his head down and out, which builds the trapezius muscle before and behind the wither. 


Don't worry about him going above the bit, as It is quite normal for a horse to do that until they have developed the proper muscle to hold their head in the proper position. It can take up to 1 year for them to really develop that muscle. Many people make the mistake of making a horse keep their head down, which results in tension against the bit, rather than a horse that searches for the bit. Getting a horse straight and on your aids is also a big part of getting a proper 'frame'. Most horses will naturally go onto the bit when set up properly and no horse will naturally relax when crooked or unbalanced. If he does go above though, you can lift your hands up higher and send him forward until he connects with the bit again, then bring your hands down and forward with him. When a horse's head goes above the bit and your hands stay at the same level, the bit now acts on the bars of the horse (as you can sort of picture below). Raising the hands allows you to keep the bit action more or less on the corners of the horse's mouth. 












Rollkur, is when BTV is taken to an extreme and they are different. In rollkur, A horse's nose will be taken in farther to his chest and held there for an extended period of time. Greener horses or horses lacking muscle will sometimes dip behind the vertical from time to time due to being tired or inexperienced. This puts more weight on their front end and allows them to avoid using their hind end properly.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with @Jolly101. Think of " upward and outward" when you are asking the horse to work into contact on the bit. Never lower your hands in an effort to pull him down. This is something I see all the time and it's one of my pet peeves. 

Hold your reins with your thumb on top. Don't curl your wrists inward . Think of holding a tray that is resting on your thumb knuckles. Now , keeping it steady, you "offer" it forward. I don't mean that you move forward much , but rather having that image , of offering or inviting forward, helps you to encourage the horse to bring the bit forward, and you will feel this and follow him just that little bit that tells him to trust you giving hands.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I also don’t want to ride him hollow_"

A horse can be soft and obedient to the rein aids with his nose forward, and can be so without a bit:










A horse can fight the bit regardless of head position, too. Please notice a horse has 90 degrees of head movement available to him at the poll alone! Every bone behind the poll can be in the same place while the head moves up and down.

Why would a horse move his head up or down?



















"_The horse has a "visual streak", or an area within the retina, linear in shape, with a high concentration of ganglion cells (up to 6100 cells/mm2 in the visual streak compared to the 150 and 200 cells/mm2 in the peripheral area).[12] Horses have better acuity when the objects they are looking at fall in this region. They therefore will tilt or raise their heads, to help place the objects within the area of the visual streak_."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_vision#Visual_field 

The British Cavalry had a poem calling the horse's neck his "5th leg". A horse fine-tunes his balance using his neck and head motion. Allowing a horse to move his head will not make the horse hollow, nor encourage to be hollow.

If a horse is pulling from the front, then he needs to learn better balance with a rider. It doesn't have anything to do with nose position. You can ask him to switch gears (speed transitions) or ask him to turn, or stop him and start again. I think a horse should learn self-carriage before being asked to perform....guided carriage?

Unless you are an expert, the easiest way to get a horse to use its back properly is to A) get off the back as much as possible and B) present the horse with physical challenges - changes in speed, direction, or rough terrain. Horses will use their backs when it helps them to do so and when we don't punish their backs with our weight.

You might want to read Schooling Your Horse by VS Littauer. Amazon has copies that run under $15 including shipping.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

To me, my first guess is that your horse is weak and thus he will either be above or below no matter what you do until you get him fit to work over his back. Jumping around does not do this. Long trots, hill work and CORRECT pole work does. I'd take bsms's advice and get you horse out over some country and let him learn to use his back while carrying a rider on his own. Stay out of his face. Use your reins to rate some, but mostly your seat. Drilling in the arena isn't going to make him more inclined to the work. If the arena is your only option I'd set up some well spaced, interesting pole work and again: don't focus on your hands- instead go for rhythm and his head will drop WHEN he is balanced, and WHEN he is strong enough to hold his back up carrying you. 


It's worth noting the back of a horse isn't exactly designed to be a simply supported beam-- it's best function is as a suspension system for those massive internal organs. Think of it as a suspension bridge that we want to change to a Roman arch- we are changing it from functioning in tension to compression (us on top). This is why fitness of the back and topline is so important and must be taken so carefully. really the best way to get that fitness is long walks up and down hills. Do a little arena work with a good instructor who understands biomechanics, but also (especially at your skill level) get your horse OUT and let him figure out how to carry his back and frame up on it's own. Did I mention HILL WORK? In case I didnt- GO DO SOME HILL WORK. Seriously spend 1-2 weeks playing on hills, come back to light arena flatwork and you'll be pleasantly surprised by the result. If you arent- go check saddle fit.


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