# WHY HEELS DOWN and not UP?



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

WHY HEELS _DOWN_ not _UP_??​Here is the case for the prosecution:

Regularly we get a Post from a frustrated rider asking how to keep the heels down. I know exactly how that rider feels and for the last ten years or so I have fought to keep my heels down in direct opposition to my foot’s natural tendencies. It was not until relatively recently that I was made aware that a constriction in both my ham strings and calf muscles made it almost impossible for me to bend my heels down. Only after some excruciating stretching exercises at Pilates classes have I been enabled to bend the sole of my feet up instead of down.


Whenever I walk I rotate the sole of my foot up not down. I kick myself forwards off an upward bent foot When I run, climb the stairs, dance or do anything which calls for flexibility in the foot, I always bend the foot up not down. It won’t go down. I can’t think of any thing I might want to do that I could gain from it going down - except riding in full glare of a dressage riding instructor or using a set of scuba flippers.


As and when I get the occasional attack of gout in the ball of my right foot, then I am crippled. The joint of the big toe becomes locked solid. I can’t bend my toe either way. At such times when I can not use my foot, I can barely walk. I could not stand without a crutch. I simply can not take any weight on the same side of my body as the gouty ball of the foot. Undoubtedly the capability of the ball of the feet to bend is crucial to human mobility. But a stiff ankle is a stiff ankle; one can readily walk on that. I do not desperately need Indometacin to free up an ankle but I do need it for gout in the ball of my foot. ( Urr - I have never had gout in my ankle).


Not too long ago after a painful visit to a physio therapist and a rough manipulation of my leg by the riding instructor, I was able, for the first time ever, to sit in the saddle with my heels down without having to actively push down the heel by exercising the muscle in the ankle. I have never managed to repeat that leg (flaccid) position since. I can’t do it on my own - I can only do it as and when that woman were to reappear (but being truthful, it is highly unlikely that she will visit me ever again). I was told at the time of her last visit that my hamstrings were tight, and my pelvis was misaligned. The newly acquired posture was to be *the* correct posture with my heels *down. *
*Mine was not to reason why, mine was but to do or try. *

I still am not convinced. I now find myself looking at all riders to see if their heels are down or up. The majority are up for most of the time. I am not alone in this world. The question must arise: “*If it doesn‘t come naturally, then why are we doing it*?”. Every time I ask a rider instructor the question, I get the same answer. 

_“__*Heels down is correct; heels up is bad*_*“*.

Never have I heard a detailed explanation as to why they want me to do something which I find unnatural. Is it perhaps because they can do it in a dressage arena and I can’t? Does it matter that I am incapable? 


The Bareback/Bitless Lady Stacey shows us that saddles and stirrups are not necessary when riding or controlling a horse. Seemingly the major purpose of the saddle is to make the use of stirrups possible - so why have we designed the saddle and the irons in such a way that the only way to use them “properly” is by the unnatural use of the ankle? Or are we just using the stirrups wrongly?


My toes bend Up more than they curve Down. My foot rotates up and down from the ankle. But there is more leverage exerted on the ball of my foot when I bend the foot down rather than up. Anyway it is the sole of the shoe that presses against the stirrup iron, not the actual ball of my naked foot.

I can stand on the ball of my foot with my toes bent up, - I can’t stand on the heels of my foot without support.


Now I know that by joining the side of the *Heels Up *rider, then I am committing heresy. I am moving over to the dark side. But you guys on the *Heels Down side *now have the opportunity to make your case.

*Please explain your side of the argument. *
_*You are right, maybe we are wrong - but why?? *_
*Then perhaps you might also tell us how to do the impossibly difficult.*

Barry G

Note you can‘t read this and understand what I have written until you take your shoes and socks off.
(This thread could go on for years.)


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

I have always been told that heels down so that if you fall off, your foot will slip out of the stirrup easier.

I don't think I ever really had a problem getting my heels down, now I do it out of habit.


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## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

The ideal position is sitting with your ear, shoulder, hip and heel in a perfect vertical line. Forcing your heel down, or letting it float up with most of your weight on the ball of your foot will distort this line. Letting your weight fall down into your heels allows you to stay relaxed and lets your leg sit against your horse more comfortably, effectively and securely.

I've never had problems getting mine down.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

It is correct to ride with your heels down because it gives you more balance, it will help prevent your foot from going through and getting stuck in the stirrup. All of your weight is supposed to go down your body into the heels of your feet.

As for most of the "heels up" riders, they are simply unbalanced in their seat, and if there horse were to randomly jump, bolt, spook, whatever, the chances of them staying in the saddle are much smaller than if their heels were down.

There are TONS of people out there with "bad" ankles that just can't get their heels down, like yourself. But that doesn't mean you ride with your heels up. Keep your heels down as much as is comfortable, or at least even. When you start standing on your toes, it throws off your whole balance, with throws off your horses balance. It's an exaggerated point to shove your heels down so your toes are practically touching your calves, that's just not what it's meant to be. In all honesty, there should just be more weight in your heel than your toe. If you look at dressage riders, they ride in really long stirrups, and their heels really aren't down, but rather slightly lower than their toes.

As far as bareback goes, I could care less, I ride with my legs hanging. The heels down concept really stablizes you in the saddle and stirrups, but bareback, you are fine either way. I still wouldn't recommend riding with your toes pointed all the way down, but rather let your leg relax like they would if you were sitting in a chair where you feet don't touch the ground.

I hope that makes sense. It's really early, lol.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Ricci,
Apologies, I am being pedantic, but in the process of my querying what you have said, I and the others can learn. I am not questioning that what you have written is necessarily untrue. I am merely asking for clarification.

A lot of us have trouble with heels down. Many of us query why it is necessary - especially if we were brought up to ride “forwards”.

It is a thought of mine that in HF we have a worldwide forum over which we can discuss matters of theoretical knowledge about horsemanship. This Forum reaches many riders whose commonality is not only the English language but also a love of horses and horsemanship. By thinking and writing, perhaps we can understand better.

What you have written is along the lines of what I have heard before - but it makes no difference, I still can’t keep my heels down in an emergency - the heels come up and the counter balancing pressure is exerted by my brain on the stirrup bars through the ball of the foot rather than the ankle. And I am not alone.

*You obviously know your stuff, Are you willing for me to use your reply as a “lesson”? 
I should like to query in detail what you have written - in the hope that you can explain to me and others what I find, at the moment, difficult to agree.

*If I am to conduct an experiment then it is appropriate for me to ask a participant for their permission?

If you say 'No', then I understand.

Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Riding is my life*
Again I repeat what I wrote to Ricci:
Apologies, I am being pedantic, but in the process of my querying what you have said, I and the others can learn. I am not questioning that what you have written is untrue. I am merely asking for clarification.
It is a thought of mine that in HF we have a worldwide forum over which we can discuss matters of theoretical knowledge about horsemanship. This Forum reaches many riders whose commonality is not only the English language but also a love of horses and horsemanship. By thinking and writing, perhaps we can understand better.
A lot of us have trouble with heels down. Many of us query why it is necessary - especially if we were brought up to ride “forwards”

*May I question what you wrote? It is my wish to clarify*.

_The ideal position is sitting with your ear, shoulder, hip and heel in a perfect vertical line. Forcing your heel down, or letting it float up with most of your weight on the ball of your foot will distort this line._
_Letting your weight fall down into your heels allows you to stay relaxed _
Sitting vertically look tidy when only the force of gravity is involved - but when the horse moves the forces of both motion and gravity come into play. The body bends forwards and backwards , indeed it must to stay in the saddle. The body will automatically tend to bend forwards at waist level to counteract the forces of motion, 
Those of us that allow the heel to float up - don’t actually allow it to float - we positively provoke it because we are pressing down with the ball of the foot on the stirrup bar as part of the process of maintaining balance in the saddle.
Those of us that have difficulty keeping our feet down, aren’t letting it fall - we have to push the heel down in order to comply with the instruction from the tutor.

_and lets your leg sit against your horse more comfortably, effectively and securely._
With some sensitive horses it is appropriate to keep the leg off the side of the horse in case it gets the wrong cue/aid. Keeping the leg on (against) might encourage it to go forwards faster than we anticipated.
“_effectively” _- what would “in-effectively” be seen as?
_“securely” _- do you mean: less prone to unwanted movement?

_I've never had problems getting mine down. _
We heels up folks have no problem getting them down - we push them down but we would love to know how you *keep* them down. Have you any idea of how the heels down position is obtained by you *without conscious effort?*

Please be patient with me
Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Paint Luvver

If you have never had a problem with heels down - then you must have got it right from the beginning.
I wish I had.

Barry G


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Maybe I can help you out, hopefully.

It is not necessarily correct to have heels down or heels up. It is about what aids you, as the rider, to beable to have a solid and secure, supple leg. 

Solid meaning, under you during flat work, at the girth during jumping. Secure meaning where your leg needs to be, but functional. Supple meaning, not stiff, while being able to do it's job with the task at hand.

While yes when we jump our heels are supposed to anchor us into our tack. Why? Because the majority of the riders out there do not train their seats. 

Lets start at the beginning. Studdy the Spanish Riding School Masters in Vienna. When a rider has been chosen to be a part of their phenominal riding academy, the rider is put on a horse, with a lunge line, with no reins what-so-ever.

Why? Because they are taught to use their seat first. Our seats are the most important factor to riding. Not out legs, not our heels, definately not our hands.

These riders are stuck on the lunge for a whole year before they are even given their reins. 

Studdy their videos on youtube. The majority ride with long leathers and yes, heels are even with their toes or higher. Why? Because they are impecably well balanced, because they have phenominally trained seats.

The longer the leather in highly educated riders, the better balanced they are - because they use their seats first and foremost. Their seats are their heart to functional, balanced form.

Now - lets go back to the norm. Because the majority of us are not taught properly nor educatedly, and are permitted to to things on our horses before we should be - we are not as educated in our seats as we should be. Lets admit it, the majority of us ride hands first and have no clue how to even use our seats nor are taught that our seats are the most important factor to riding.

So - we aren't as well balanced. We are not as secure in our tack as those who are taught properly. So we have to resort to other parts of our body to secure us and solidify us in our tack....aka...our heels.

So the question isn't should our heels be up or should our heels be down - the question really is, "How can we solidify our seats to obtain a more balanced and secure form when we ride?"

A) I have seen riders with solid legs at the girth over fences, with their heels even with their toes. I wouldn't complain because they are solid and sunk in their tack, they aren't going to budge. Their seats are low to their saddle, their seats are centered over their tack, their legs are glued to that girth and they are over their horses center of gravity, without impeding their horses movement and job.

B) But, there are MANY out there who have no solidity in their lower leg over fences. They pinch their knees instead to obtain that security in their tack, their seats are lurched way out of their tack, crotch over pommel and lower leg so far behind them - they are going to do a face plant into their horses necks, or the dirt.

Which rider would I stress to resort in relying on their lower leg and heels? Which rider would I stress how important it is to rely on their lower leg and heels? Rider B, naturally.

Because they do not have the security in their seat, the balance to solidify themselves in their tack, so they must learn to re-establish their leg placement to aid them in that ultimate goal - secure, balanced seats.

*That is why we hear George Morris stress over and over and over again, stirrupless work - so that we turn to our seats to secure us, not our knees, not our legs.*

Flat work - really, it isn't our heels that anchor us, it is our seat. 

~~~~

So - it isn't incorrect to have heels up, it isn't incorrect to have heels down.........what it ultimately is - is how balanced and solid is the riders seat? 

IF they do not have the seat, they MUST have their lower leg, and their heels - to aid in anchoring them. 

If they have a solid leg and a solid, balanced seat - who cares if their heels are up.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

MIE
Thank you for the expose.
Interesting what you say. I was introduced to horses
and vaguely taught to ride using the English hunting seat which as far as I can see is exactly how Vlad Littauer might have taught me. 8 years ago I went to Andalucia on holiday and watched a relatively uneducated Spanish farm worker ride his stallion. He was a guide at the riding centre. I was fascinated and over a couple of days came to realize that I had wasted a lifetime of riding. He sat easily and gracefully what I, English trained, had to cling on to. 
As you say, it is all in the seat.

I have visited both Jerez and Saumur. I missed out on Vienna but the differences in methodology are marginal. (In Jerez one has to be male to be taken on as a rider, although stable _maids_ are permitted).

What kicked me off on this subject is the pedantry of some tutors who dictate rather than explain. Lots of riders struggle with heels down. 

Noone ever mentions Newtons Laws of Motion or talks generally about the forces of physics involved in riding. 
Few bother to explain how the human body distorts with age and use.
And then of course, there is the question of different styles for different disciplines.

Your posting has provoked me to reread my copies of Podhajsky & L'Hotte. I might understand them better if I could find locally a like minded horse owner with whom to read them. 
Sadly Jose, doesn't read English but he does live near Jerez where the Spanish School of Artistic Riding is located (just round the corner from the Spanish Military's Andalucian stud). 
Well worth a holiday visit.

Let us see what response your espose provokes.

Barry G


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

What I have learnt over all the years I have been riding and paying "Instructors" to teach me - is:

"There are far too many Uneducated Coaches, turning out Uneducated Riders"

that is why I stress over and over and over to people, to really do your reasearch on the coach you choose to guide you on your pathway to being a functional, educated rider.

Be Very Picky!


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## fuzzyfeet (Aug 29, 2009)

It's because it's easier to grip the horse's sides with your heels down.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

fuzzyfeet said:


> It's because it's easier to grip the horse's sides with your heels down.


Sorry, but no. You are in no way supposed to grip your horse with your legs. 

And of course, Barry, you can use whatever you want out of what I said. I'm not sure if you really asked me any questions, but I have more to say. =]

I assume that you have it in your head that you are more secure on your toes than your heels. If you want your heels down, you will have to teach your brain that you are also safe, or even safer, heels down. Of course, that's if you want to. If you feel you are a secure rider, and can handle whatever moves your horse spontaneously makes, your obviously doing something right.

I, like everyone else, was always yelled at to "KEEP YOUR HEELS DOWN!" I was riding for several years before it bothered to sink in. I started jumping a crazy mare who was completely unpredictable. As we're heading up to the jump, I was always wondering what she'd do, refuse? Run out? Hesitate and then leap from a stand still? Or just take it like a normal horse. And I tell you what, if my heels weren't down, I couldn't stay on. I hit the dirt SO many times falling off that horse, typically during the landing. If I was standing on my toes, it typically meant my balance was too far forward and when we landed, I launched over her head. Eventually, I decided I was flat out done falling off that horse, and practically drug my heels in the dirt trying to keep them down. Once I figured it out, I was able to stay on no matter what she threw at me.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Amazing since I started this thread yesterday there have been 90 viewers - obviously this is indeed a hot topic.

Ricci
Your first post was one which I have heard from instructors - indeed it seems to be a mantra with many to call out "Heels down" but few instructors come across and manipulate my leg to make sure that it is in the correct alignment to allow my foot to lie parallel with the horse with heels down. (In Britain nowadays one has to be very carfeful how one touches young people for legal reasons) 

My opinion is much along the lines of what MIE has said in her posting, it matters not so much if the heels are down , it matters more that the rider is sitting correctly and that the leg is turned to allow the underside of the thigh to lie correctly on the back of the saddle.
If the riders pelvis is misaligned or the hip is for some reason out of place then the rider will probably find the foot in the wrong position. The rider may also be sitting lop sided or tilted backwards or forwards. 
Pushing the heel down ( the typical response to the tutor's cry) as against allowing it to fall down may do no more than add unnecessary tension in the calf.
If the rider is correctly in the classical position then there will be no weight in the heel - the stirrup is merely there to keep the foot still.

So the heel not being down is merely an indication that the seat of the rider is incorrect - so artificially pushing the heel down is of no help. The rider is in fact generating pressure when none is needed.

Riding a flat, wide backed horse will also be more difficult for a slim rider with narrow hips. The barrel of a wide backed horse will force the legs open

Stacey Westfall rides without stirrups. She doesn't see them to be necessary because she has a superb seat.
But the correct seat comes first - riding without stirrups won't bring about the right seat unless the rider understands how to sit first. Ideally there should be available in tack shops pressure pads to confirm that the rider is dispersing his weight correctly when sitting on the saddle.

You yourself go on to describe how a difficult horse led to your keeping your heels down - but it is likely that at the time you also changed the way you sat. The feet hanging down came as an outcome.

The other neglected element is the influence of the brain of the rider. If the rider has come to use pressure thru the ball of the foot onto the stirrup bars to counter forces of motion and gravity then very quickly that response will be absorbed by the brain and thereby become automatic whenever the rider feels out of balance. The long term rider who was not taught to sit properly in the first few months of riding, will have developed his/her own responses. That rider will under stress automatically revert to his first learned response - he'll push down on the stirrup bars instantly he feels unsafe - even if seconds before his heels were down.
Which is why I believe that correct tuition from a knowledgeable instructor is of prime importance at the very beginning of learning to ride English.

The naturally gifted rider, especially those who learned to ride at a very young age, will most likely come to sit in the correct position with minimal instruction.

All sorts of comments come forth as to why heels should be "down" - like "not losing the stirrups" , or "getting caught up when falling off" or even "looking better".
Heels should be down because they hang down because the riding is sitting correctly, 

It is a shame that some of us old fogeys who still manage to ride won't ever get it correct. I blame my mother for not sending me to riding lessons when I was 5.

Barry G

Whenever I watch old Clint Eastwood films I get upset - as a young man he sat beautifully with an upright posture at all paces. He sat like a well schooled Spaniard riding his stallion in a fiesta. Sadly I might think I know what to do, I just can't do it.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

That's very interesting. Now that you mention it, I'm sure I probably learned to sit better on that ridiculous horse, causing my heels to go down. It's a very interesting thread, that's for sure. The main reason I was told to keep them down was because it better allows your foot to slide out of the stirrup if you fall off and get hung up. Of course, I've fallen off and got dragged because the loop from either my spurs or my halfchaps got caught, haha.

By saying a rider will start riding on the toes when a problem arises, do you mean actually bringing the heels up and standing on the toes? Or that you simply force your legs further down, increasing the pressure on the toes? I guess I just got confused, because when I'm riding a horse that acts up, I typically sink my heels further, which increases the pressure on my toes even though I'm not actually standing on my tippytoes.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

_Ricci - try this - I have attempted to explain my thinking on the matter. Take your time._

The instinctive reaction of a rider taught originally or used to riding forwards will be to increase the pressure on the stirrup bars - it will be the way he typically resists the unbalancing forces being generated by the horse. Newton says:"every force to be neutralised must be countered by an equal and opposite force" 

The rider can't increase the weight of his body, that is determined by his body weight and gravity but by pressing down on the stirrup bars he will re-direct the weight. By pressing down more forcibly on one side or the other he can counter the forces created by the horse's movement. 

This is similar to what the cross country rider is doing.
The stirrups have been shortened, elegance is not relevant - just staying in balance on the saddle over the horse's centre of gravity is all that counts when moving at speed over undulating terrain.
The rider is up, almost slightly off the saddle with weight being transferred constantly between the stirrups and the thighs and calves and the saddle.
An analogy is skiing downhill - where one foot can be lifted to offset undulations in the snow.

All of these reactions take place in what Parelli calls a "moment" - a milli second. The rider is not thinking what to do, the sub conscious brain is reacting - just a milli second or two after the horse. The capable rider does not know exactly what he/she has done - he/she just did it, instinctively as an acquired response learned by rote - constant repetition - over years of riding.

Elsewhere, say in dressage riding, the rider is seeking to be in supreme control of the horse with a light touch. It is almost like dancing - 'elegance' is the key word. The forces involved are much more gentle. 

In cross country riding the forces involved are far greater because of the equation: force= mass x speed. (I've wandered off topic)

So the rider who has the heels up (instead of heels down) is using a contrived response mechanism because he has not acquired the correct/optimum seat and the responses therewith relevant.

The human body will usually find a way to do something demanded of it - even if the muscles used are not the best muscles to use for the movements. I cheat at Pilates classes because my stomach muscles are weak - I use other muscles. In addition I breathe _*in*_ when I should be breathing _*out*_ because I used to be a scuba diver. etc etc. My brain finds a way.

In theory it must be better to be able to sit upright with most of the rider's weight either in the saddle or the under thighs. If the rider does have a secure seat then he can, in the milli second available, redirect his weight to offset the force of the horse's movement. But acquiring that seat takes more than just being told how to do it. As MIE said, it can take a year of constant practice. 

The human's brain always wants to stay in balance and upright but to do that it must have full use of the human's balancing mechanism - the eyes, the ears etc. Some riders don't have good balance and never will - me included but that doesn't mean we need to stop riding - yet. We do find a way - we lift our heels up. (_then we get shouted at)_

This is a complex issue - but in reading one has to think. In thinking one learns. I try to express my thinking - I hope to have written it in an understandable way.
The truth probably won't come out, until we get those pressure pads.

But this exercise illustrates only too well why the riding instructor takes the easy way out and calls "Heels down" - it is all too complicated for him/her to explain in a training arena.

Barry


PS Look over in English Riding under "Teaching the Horse the Classical Way" - the latest posting. I took Joe off the course - because of me - my body is bent. I could not get my heels down but other things were wrong too.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Oh my, this is a good one........ I like Barry am in the "old fogey" group. My body has been used/abused from the years on this earth. I go every 6 weeks to the chiropractor just so that I CAN ride. I go to the gym 2-3 times a weeks so that my muscles are strong which helps with the joint pain. 

I've worked with several instructors over the years and one of the best was a lady who helped me ride well in-spite of my body. There are positions, like Barry, that I can not hold for any length of time. This lady helped me achieve a good seat because I'm a level boarding on up footed person. Trying to keep my heels down results in the complete loss of feeling in one foot. 

You can still achieve that invisible line of shoulder, hip and heel with a level foot. You can still achieve a solid seat without your heels down. You can still maintain the correct leg position without your heel down. None of us have perfectly aligned bodies. I have one leg long than the other, and one hip is turned in which causes me to walk funny......Over the years I have had to find ways to compensate for my body. 

I've spent years trying to hone my equitation skills and have some ribbons to show it's not too shabby, in spite of the fact that my body doesn't always bend the way I would like it to.



> But this exercise illustrates only too well why the riding instructor takes the easy way out and calls "Heels down" - it is all too complicated for him/her to explain in a training arena.


LOL, I think it's more of a CYA sort of thing. If the kid falls then the instructor can say "I told you to keep your heels down"......

I tried to make this picture bigger to show my feet but I don't think it worked well. This is a grid clinic, jumps are very low. The purpose of the clinic was to work on body position. It's not the best picture, but I think you can see my feet are level, my leg is solid, I'm jumping with him and not ahead or behind him, I've given George lots of release and even though he's going at the jump like it's over 2 feet I think my position is very solid. I'll try to find some other jumping pictures on the computer at home.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> It is correct to ride with your heels down because it gives you more balance, it will help prevent your foot from going through and getting stuck in the stirrup.


Which, of course, brings up another question: why are stirrups made so that your foot can get stuck in them? Look at for instance bicycle toe clips: your foot goes in just so far, and no farther. There's really no way you could get it stuck (at least I've never come close in maybe 30 years of biking), your feet are secure for the proper pedaling motion, yet come right out when you want to stop...


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## Gidji (Dec 19, 2008)

jamesqf, stirrups aren't made so that your feet can get stuck in them. Sure, emergencies and accidents do happen and sometimes peoples foot get stuck, but riding in the correct position and having proper foot placement should help prevent it. The person who made stirrups didn't make them so people's feet could get stuck and he could have a laugh.
I've always been taught heels down. I've had 4 instructors and every one of them told me heels down, however only 2 took the time to move my leg. The other 2 just constantly shouted it. I've been taught it is the correct way to ride, it helps keep you in balance, and in the event of an emergency will help you. I had a problem with my heels for about a year, but I took up pilates and my instructor helped. I think all horse-riders should do pilates, it really helps the muscles you use.
Barry G, imagine you rode with your heels up, (like when you point your toes down, that kind of heels up). I'm sure your leg would be less secure, your foot in the stirrup would be un-balanced and I'm sure your seat would struggle.
I'm actually going to try riding with my heels level with my toe, and my heels up and down just to see the difference. I've been taught heels down for balance and correct seat. This thread is very interesting.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Gidji
In the period 2001 to late 2006 I was riding horses hired out from riding centres in a mountainous area. Very often each week I would be faced with getting on a strange horse to ride sometimes quite fast over tricky terrain.

I just looked at the horse, mounted up, did a few simple "what kind of horse have I got today?" check and rode off. I never knew in advance whether I had a fireball or a dobbin between my legs until 15 minutes into the ride.

As I discovered later my pelvis and my hips were out of line and my hamstrings tight. No way did I sit upright in a classical pose. I read Littauer's books and rode what I deemed to be "forward".
Instantly we got to canter, I would come up off the saddle and put a signficant amount of weight into the stirrup bars. My knees locked into the knee rolls and I leaned forwards. I worked the stirrups like a set of pedals and could rebalance myself easily by working the balls of my feet. Essentially the heels were always up and rarely down.
All I noticed was that I went thru leather stirrup leathers within a few months and on one occasion when I galloping along a ridge the stirrup bar actually broke. I stayed on and survived to the amazement of my friends on that ride.

Of course there was no finesse. But over that period the fun was charging about in over moors, national parks,
mountain tracks and beaches, I went fox hunting a few times and did 5 overseas riding holidays. But over that period I only came off twice, whereas in truth I should have broken my neck several times.

My problems started when I allowed myself to be taught the classical way - then everything started to go wrong. But that is another story. 

Barry


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Gidji said:


> The person who made stirrups didn't make them so people's feet could get stuck and he could have a laugh.


Well, no. The person who invented stirrups (if I'm remembering my history correctly) did it so that he could stand in them and use both hands to shoot arrows at pursuing foes. The possibility of a foot getting stuck probably wasn't foremost in his mind 

But from what I've read and been told, it does happen, so you wear a particular kind of boot to make it less likely, perhaps learn to ride with your heels down, and so on, when it seems pretty easy to design a stirrup that a foot couldn't possibly get caught in. Which makes me wonder if there's a reason I don't know about, and the best way to find that out is to ask.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Well, no. The person who invented stirrups (if I'm remembering my history correctly) did it so that he could stand in them and use both hands to shoot arrows at pursuing foes. The possibility of a foot getting stuck probably wasn't foremost in his mind
> 
> But from what I've read and been told, it does happen, so you wear a particular kind of boot to make it less likely, perhaps learn to ride with your heels down, and so on, when it seems pretty easy to design a stirrup that a foot couldn't possibly get caught in. Which makes me wonder if there's a reason I don't know about, and the best way to find that out is to ask.


There are attachments you can put on stirrups that will stop your foot from sliding through, I think they're called toe stoppers. There are also a TON of safety stirrups that you "can't" get stuck in, because the rubber band will pop or it's shaped a certain way.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Saddles were invented before roman times and initially in some societies they did not have stirrups. Stirrups gave the rider the ability to wield a sword better and to hold a spear/lance. Drawings of those stirrups sometimes show a simple L shaped bracket which does not encircle the foot.
Stirrups also made it easier for an armoured man to mount.
Stirrups + high pommels and high cantels made it more possible for the knight to resist the shock of colliding with another similarly armed knight. 
A high pommel,high cantel saddle is still used in rural Spain

There is no shortage of English "safety" stirrups, perhaps the easiest being the type which have a thick elastic band on the outside edge. I have also seen safety stirrups in trekking centres which are designed with a hood to prevent the foot going thru and becoming wedged.

However so long as the stirrup width is at least an inch wider that the boot at its broadest point, then the foot should not get wedged. The rider should wear boots which have as far as possible a flat sole.

Upon mounting a new horse fitted in tack which the rider is unfamliar with, then he should check that he can "kick" the stirrup iron off easily.

In the arena as has been said, the stirrup is there to keep the foot in place but out on a fast hack - some riders prefer to push the foot/boot home into the stirrup to make sure that they do not lose the stirrup on uneven terrain.

I have no idea what western riders do, but the actual design of a universal broad wooden stirrup iron covered in leather makes it less likely for the foot/boot to be caught up except perhaps when they wear boots with high heels-but I have no experience in the matter.

I have fallen off many times but as yet my foot has never been caught up. Don't ask why. Perhaps I was too concerned about hitting the ground at the time.


Barry G


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Barry have you looked into the english stirrups that are raised in the front?


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## Survalia (Mar 4, 2009)

THANK YOU! Especially to Barry and MIE -- this has been the most interesting thread and I have learned a TON! I have wondered the same thing, and even asked before, but never got a satisfactory answer! Now, my next several riding sessions will be spent stirrupless. I now know how to really improve my seat, rather than just follow directions that may or may not be helpful just because "that's the way it is done."


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Survalia
A man called St Fort Paillard wrote a book "Understanding Equitation". He takes a chapter to explain the exact meaning of each word like "calmness" "straightness" "lightness" "impulsion" - as used in equitation. 
In the arena, the teacher can talk, using such words and the pupil, sitting on the horse, may think he/she has understood. Sadly too often the pupil has not.

I am a problem to teach - everytime I don't think I have understood I ask the tutor to restate what he/she has said. 
Then if I don't think what he/she said makes sense, I ask again usually with a sentence starting with "but".
Needless to say some tutors don't come back but it is important for the pupil to know and even more important to understand correctly.

Barry


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

G&K
The link you sent leads to the pedigree of a QH.

Nothing about stirrups??

Barry


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

Your heels should always be down because that is your anchor. Your weight should be sunken down in your heels with your ankles relaxed. So if a horse stops fast or refuses a jump, you won't go flying over his head. It also helps so your feet don't slip through the stirrups, in which case you could be dragged. 

If your hamstrings are tight, stretch your legs on the edge of the stairs. It sounds like you need to stretch more.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I used to take aikido. Our sensei showed us how the position of your extremities controls the direction of the force in your body. Aikido is about controlling momentum, and he used to tell us to point where we wanted to go (or more precisely, where we wanted our opponent to land :lol Japanese archers point their index finger at the target. You would think that would be bad because it lessens your grip on the bow, but actually it is more effective.

It's the same with keeping your heels down when riding. If your toes are pointed down, your momentum will also be oriented downward and the rest of your body will tend to follow, causing you to lean forward. Looking down when riding is bad for the same reason, not just because it means you can't see where you're going. I've noticed in pictures that the people who look down over jumps are also the ones who end up sprawled all over their horse's necks.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Your heels should always be down because that is your anchor. Your weight should be sunken down in your heels with your ankles relaxed. So if a horse stops fast or refuses a jump, you won't go flying over his head. It also helps so your feet don't slip through the stirrups, in which case you could be dragged.


Security in your saddle is not obtained by deep heels. It is obtained by a deep, balanced, secure seat.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

MI Eventer has some great points.

I was in lessons for a year and was constantly told "keep your heals down!", keeping my heals as far "down" as she wanted caused problems with future horses. I then had a very kind, smart horse woman take me aside and work with me on my seat, NOT ON MY HEALS, she dropped my stirrups way down so that I barely had them (because we were in a public riding ring not a private one or else she would have taken them totally) it taught me to rely on my butt and upper thighs to keep in the the proper position and over his center of gravity.

I thank her for that immensely now because I have a high strung TB who constantly tests me, its my seat that keeps me on his back and NOT my heals, my heals are still down, yes, because it was POUNDED into my head that they had to be, but they are no longer as far down as they used to be.

If you have a solid seat there is no reason to deal with forcing your heals down.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> With some sensitive horses it is appropriate to keep the leg off the side of the horse in case it gets the wrong cue/aid. Keeping the leg on (against) might encourage it to go forwards faster than we anticipated.
> “_effectively” _- what would “in-effectively” be seen as?
> _“securely” _- do you mean: less prone to unwanted movement?



I have to disagree with this statement personally. I have a rather touchy horse but my leg is always against him, just no pressure added, keeping your leg against the horse keeps you balanced and in your seat. if you hold your lower leg still there is no reason your horse should pick up the wrong cue. and keeping your leg still is all part of how balanced your seat is.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I've never really had heel down problems, but I do get a sore ankle if I ride for too long. 

When you horse ride you balance on the ball of your foot. You use your heel to anchor your body and your leg in place that you can put your weight into your ball. 

I used to teach my friends to ride. They would always complain about remembering to put heels down. So I would stand by them (them on horseback) and tell them to hold the heel how they want. Then I would grab the leg and pull back (lightly) and their whole position would just collapse. Then I would tell them to put their heels down and I would do the same thing, and their leg would barely move, and if it did, the rest of their position stayed solid. 

Your heels brace your leg. Even riding bareback I put my heels down because then my position is solid and balanced. Sure you can ride with your toes down, but people who do that generally grip with their legs. 

Sure it can be a little harder to get used to, but a lot of things are. I found that I learnt to balance my weight through my heel so that my heel isn't so much pushed down, but just a little down with the contour of the leg. The pain people often feel from it is not from keeping the heel down, but from using the ankle to brace the leg in the stirrup.

I like the way we ride horses.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I am with MIE on this one, your balance is not through your stirrups, but through your seat. I was constantly told as a young rider to put my heels down. However, have you ever noticed that when the heels are forced down, the legs come forward and the rider is either unaligned or has to lean their body forward, tipping the pelvis, in order to bring the legs back underneath them? It is a common thing that I see from many of the rush 'em in and move 'em up "hunter" facilities around here. I call them the "toilet seat riders". I must admit that way back when, I was one.
Through riding multiple difficult horses, I did develop a decent seat through necessity, so when someone actually did tell me not to have my heels so far down, it came very easily and I had my own "aha" moment. In the words of my trainer "it is not about how far down the heels are, it is about the correctness through the riders posture and the horses posture, you should be standing over the horse rather than sitting on top of them. Match the angles through your ankle, knee, and hip, as these angles close (2.) then they will all close together, hip, knee, and ankle." When the heel is forced down, the hips tend to rotate outward for the novice rider, the knee angle opens, and the hip angle has to close to allow for the legs to stay under the rider rather than in front of. Picture the horse and rider, then seperate the two in your mind. Does the rider look structurally correct without the horse underneath them? If the heels are too far down, the riders position looks very similar to that of a clamshell, and not someone that you would see as structurally stable.

So where does the "heels down" come from? Heck if I know. My guess would be starting the novice rider that tries to shove their feet forward into their toe when pushed too fast in their riding development. Just like mounting from the left side, maybe it just stuck.

When I ride, I don't focus on heels down or up, my balance is in my seat with the weight of my legs in my stirrups, resting on the ball of my foot. Ear, shoulder, hip, and heel all aligned, pelvis balanced on 3 points, not tipped forward or backwards, core strong, angles equal to promote strength and correctness through my body, enabling the horse to do the same with theirs.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Ponyboy,
That is the first time Aikido has been mentioned to me in connection with horse riding - but for the head it makes sense but I am not convinced for the feet, for reasons which I will explain.

I need to tidy up an article to clarify my reasoning but: the more I think about it - the angle of my feet (toes up or down) is irrelevant to helping the horse when on the move outside of the arena. _The distribution of my weight over the horse’s centre of gravity has to be the most important factor - as Littauer says_. I shall try to explain in another article.

As I write this, I become aware of why it would be inappropriate for me to enter dressage competitions. I suddenly remember that at one time I even rode with swivelling stirrup bars.


Barry G


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## Velvet (Dec 3, 2008)

HAven't read all the posts but the number ONE reason for keeping your heels down is SAFETY!

If you are pointing your toes down, you stand the chance of your feet slipping forward and hooking in your stirrups, if you should fall off when this occurs, you can get dragged and VERY severely injured.

Besides, keeping your heels down is not that hard! hehehe


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Velvet said:


> If you are pointing your toes down, you stand the chance of your feet slipping forward and hooking in your stirrups, if you should fall off when this occurs, you can get dragged and VERY severely injured.


If that's all there is to it, wouldn't it be much simpler just to put some sort of cage or basket mesh over the front of the stirrup, so that a foot couldn't possibly slip through and get stuck?


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

This has been a very interesting discussion.

When I first started getting lessons, I was told I had a really good position - heels down, back straight, everything aligned, etc, but despite that, I never felt secure or comfortable.

Then I started riding bareback more on my own. Just me & my horse with no instructor. My horse in a fenced-in arena with a very loose rein. I didn't focus on heels down at all. In fact, when riding bareback, my leg falls light and long against the side of my horse and my toes point down a smidge. Just a very natural position. My seat became very secure riding like this. I also worked on rein-less riding during this time and guiding my horse with my seat and legs (independent of each other). 

When I got back in the saddle I felt much more secure and comfortable. Now when my feet are in the stirrup, they do fall heel down, but softly. They are not forced down. The ball of my foot sets lightly on the actual stirrup and heel goes down a bit from there. This is just what my leg naturally wants to do. I do find that this keeps my stirrup secure and I can easily utilize my stirrups if I need to on the trail (standing up in them to get something, etc). 



> I have to disagree with this statement personally. I have a rather touchy horse but my leg is always against him, just no pressure added, keeping your leg against the horse keeps you balanced and in your seat. if you hold your lower leg still there is no reason your horse should pick up the wrong cue. and keeping your leg still is all part of how balanced your seat is.


There are different levels of touchiness. I rode one horse that even touching her sides made her want to move forward. It didn't matter how still your leg was, if it was touching her sides even slightly, she would try to go. She was a pain to ride and I did have to keep my legs up off her side. I was still plenty secure, but it wasn't comfortable. Unfortunately I am convinced that a big part of that was improper training of the horse and not desensitizing her a bit more to actual touch, but since I was just riding her once, there wasn't much I could do about it. Just because your horse is one way, you can not claim that there are no other horses out there that are not that way.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread started on the subject of heels up or down and Aikido was brought into consideration by Pony Rider. Maybe he has a point - perhaps. What I personally am not concerned about when riding is conformity to the norm. As an individual, I sit my horse, who is, in turn, an individual. Whatever our competences, together we must come together and make a pair. 


Imagine we are trail riding and I am motoring along on the horse. We are coming up to a junction and by moving my head to look the way I am intending to go, I give the horse the cue, as to which way I intend, for both of us, to turn. I believe that just the change of weight/balance of the head is enough to guide a sensitive horse. There would also be a slight readjustment of the shoulders ie to drop just a fraction the shoulder in the direction of the turn. A taughtness in one rein, a looseness in the other. Who knows? I just do it.

My old cross country horse William was superb at taking this indication from me and mostly he would change the rein if necessary of his own accord in readiness for the turn. I probably had already tightened the right rein by a touch and my heel would hesitate against his flank for a fraction but round the corner he, with me aboard, would go as if on rails. 
Joe was not so sensitive but he'd go round any corner with his neck facing the wrong way if necessary. He was a much more forgiving ride for the rider than William but not so sensitive. Subtlety on the part of the rider was not necessary with The Boy. 
Didi - Well she is more concerned about what is around the corner that she can't yet see. We have not yet got to going round obscure corners at speed yet. She is not yet sure about walking on uneven terrain let alone cantering on it.

To summarize, pointing the head - Aikido style - definitely has its place but it will only work if the horse is super sensitive to the rider.


We Brits mostly ride collected with the horse head and neck more upright, not so much of this ‘long and low’ style for us. I want full control of my horse’s head and neck. So to look forwards between the ears is virtually automatic and it also gives the rider a clue as to what the horse is thinking from the sign language of the horse’s ears. However this means I will not be looking at the horizon, the angle of sight is wrong. Nevertheless since I want to know what the horse is likely to be stepping on further along the trail, this angle would be acceptable. I reckon to tell the horse where to go for up to a body's length away, beyond that distance it is for the horse to take over as to where to put its four feet. The horse is largely responsible for keeping both of us upright - my job is to stay in balance with the horse. We must work together.


I am not sure about the influence of Aikido on my feet. My toes are never pointed down towards the ground. However the toes could well be lower than the heels on many occasions unless I am making a specific effort to keep the heels down - but why should I force anything? What counts is for me to keep my feet in the stirrup irons.


Now thinking about it I realize that during a ride, I will be switching my weight distribution from saddle to thigh to toe according to the horse’s pace and the nature of the surface and the incline of the terrain. 
If I am cantering on uneven ground, then more of my weight will be on the stirrup irons and less in the saddle. My main aim is to keep my weight over the horse's centre of gravity (as Littauer said many years ago>

When posting at a collected trot then the weight dispersal is variable - up, down, up down, however when trotting up steep hills or fast downhill trotting then I might be almost standing in the stirrups. I shall be wanting to get my weight up off the saddle. By putting weight onto the stirrups, I am transferring the weight up to the stirrup bars fixed close by the horse’s wither: the horse’s strongest load bearing point and above the horse’s centre of gravity. 
If we are at the walk, then nearly all of the weight will be on the seat of the saddle and the minimum on the stirrup iron.

What concerns me most is to be in balance with the horse. I personally can’t ride a horse sitting still on a padded seat, the aim is to be with the horse not to be stuck to it.


Then we must discuss leg position. My leg will be coming in to and moving away from the flanks according to whether I want to allow the horse’s back to move freely or whether I want to inhibit his speed if he is going too fast for the conditions. If the horse is labouring and we need to keep moving then it is for me to free up his back. I can’t reduce my weight for him to carry; I can only reduce my interference with his movement. 
For example: if the terrain surface is loose he must slow down - yet I don’t want to restrict his neck, which would endanger his balance; so I can’t pull too far back on the reins, which would bend his neck. I have got to “hold” him with my under thighs. The horse must sense that restriction and hold back. I can dab at the brakes (bit) but no more.

If I want the horse to turn, then I’ll turn him with my butt, calves and thighs.
If Aikido is directing full force, then it won’t help me. Riding is not about force it is all about flexibility.


In writing this I have come to the conclusion that if I want to ride in an arena, then I must conform to the style expected and I must keep my heels _down_. If I want to ride my horse up in the woods, then whether my heels are _up or down is irrelevant_. What will count is whether the two of us are in harmony and in balance.


Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Cat
You and that Stacy lady have almost converted me to 
bareback riding. I am beginning to understand why it seems to be such regular practice in the US

The trouble is, I have got to convince my mare that she must not shy at every fluttering leaf and then I have to come to _believe_ she won't shy at every fluttering leaf.

I will have to wait until I get more faith.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

okay, so try standing on your tippy toes and keeping your balance. not so hard. well, what about when someone comes up and pushes you? you're automatically going to fall forward or backwards. either way, its really hard to keep your balance. then try standing on a step with the balls of your foot on the step and your heels dropping over the ledge with you weight balanced over for you. if someone comes up and tries to knock you over, its a little harder. this person coming up and bugging your position is the horse's movements.

when a rider rides their horse with their heels up/their weight in their toes, you can not keep the rest of your position stable. if the horse makes the slightest rate backwards, you're going over their neck. if they suddenly speed up, your flying backwards! putting your weight into your toes makes your position unstable and you are all over the place and you can not cue your horse correctly and effectively.

when a rider rides their horse with their heels DOWN, their weight goes straight down from their upper body into their heels. you heels are kinda like your seat belt and your building block to the rest of your position. if you don't have heel depth, you will lack strongly in the rest of your riding position. they help hold all of your position together. the riding position is not a natural human position so keeping your heels down is helping to stabilize this. keeping your heels down also helps keep your stirrup in place. if your heels are up all the time, your stirrups are constantly falling out of place and then it just gets awkward from there as you try and pick up your stirrup and you end up having to stop your horse to fix it.

all in all, your heel block helps to stabilize your riding position. you cant do that with your heels up.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

I have always, always heard heels down and never anything else. There are several reasons but the main one for me is simply that if you have your heel down, you are much, much more balanced.


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## chevysmum (Sep 30, 2009)

At my last lesson my instructor wanted me to move my leg back further, less of what looks like a chair seat. In doing this she said that I should be posting from my calf. I get the "heels down" thing, do the best I can but can't really figure out the posting from the calf. She said if you are doing it right your calves should be burning some. Can anyone clarify this?


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

people are more balanced with their heels down, they even make shoes now that lower your heel bc even walking & running you are more balanced


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

I think what should happen here is "Her of the indoors" should take a video of Barry riding in the ring and outside of all of to us see exactly how well his horse responds.........It is after all about the horse not the rider......


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

chevysmum said:


> At my last lesson my instructor wanted me to move my leg back further, less of what looks like a chair seat. In doing this she said that I should be posting from my calf. I get the "heels down" thing, do the best I can but can't really figure out the posting from the calf. She said if you are doing it right your calves should be burning some. Can anyone clarify this?


you want to be posting from your calves, yes. you do NOT want to be posting from your stirrups and an easy way to tell if you are is to simply take away your stirrups. you will then see if your struggling to post, its because you are used to using your stirrups to post instead of from your calves. you know if you're posting from your calves if you can post pretty decently without them. you want to post with your calves and thigh. when you're posting, your thigh should be moving forward and your hips should be moving forward. i remember this from a book, but picture yourself riding with just a pair of boxers on. when you are posting, the only part of your leg that should be moving is those boxers. moving your thighs and hips forward. you shouldn't be balancing off your stirrups and if you are, people watching you will easily see that because they can see you pushing off your stirrups and there is just a lot of leg movement going on 

does that make sense at all? it takes a lot of leg muscle, i can guarantee you that!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

G&K
No chance of any photos - there's just no way I could look glamourous, handsome,slim, masculine, sauve, gentlemanly, young, elegant, sophisticated, poised, debonair, charming, etc etc etc. It is best you ladies all use your imagination.

But I'll tell you anyway.
In the arena, from nice rythmic walk, up thru to working trot, including sitting trot - then heels down maybe 95% of the time. My back nice and upright,head up, me trying to concentrate on looking "correct" - after all there will be others watching critically.
I'll probably be looking slightly head down through the horse's ears.
One skittish shy from DiDi at something passing by and those heels will be up as soon as a wink.

Out in the lanes - depends on DiDi's mood. If she is feeling sharp or skittish then heels will be flat at walk & trot but after the first two or three shys, then those heels will be up and that body weight down thru the balls of the feet onto those stirrup bars waiting for the next shy which can be caused by anything from a paper bag to a bird flying up from a bush.
(DiDi did her first whirl and bolt this week - the chamomile and valerian makes no difference - I'll have to up the dose)

At the collected canter over uneven terrain, for sure I'll be up on those stirrups, leaning slightly forward over the centre of gravity with only a light seat in the saddle. Knees will be locked into knee rolls. All Littauer forward style.
There will be noone watching and I'll feel safe and confident as and when that Girlie DiDi is wrapped between my thighs. My heels - well I can't see from where I am sitting, so who cares.

As has already been written eloquently by others, the heels are not so important - it is the disposition of body weight and the dispersal of the forces of motion which count from utilising the shock absorbers of the ankles, knees and hips and the toes.
I am not so worried about what I look like - what concerns me is whether I can still sit and control the horse. Currently the big issue is to stay relaxed whilst sitting on a time bomb.

Sadly what applies to me is an auld english expression - "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". 

Barry G


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## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

no matter how many "facts" there are on "the rotation of the sole and heel of your foot" and all that stuff, when u ride its simply heels down. Reasons...
1. Balence
2. If u fall off ur foot slips out easier and u dont get dragged along like a rag-doll
3. It is the correct way to ride, and the leg aids u give r more clear


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

equine fanatic99 said:


> 3. It is the correct way to ride, and the leg aids u give r more clear


Well, I could come back with a REALLY sarcastic comment on the correct way to spell 

But I'm too nice for that, so I'll just say that - in ANY activity, not just riding - saying "this is the correct way" without giving any sort of reason just isn't an effective way of helping me to learn. I do much better when I can see the WHY of what I'm trying to accomplish.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

IMO, "Heels down" has absolutely nothing to do with the ankle and everything to do with the leg.

My coach usually refers to a 'deep heel' and a 'deep leg'. She doesn't care about ankle flexion, and everything to do with weight and muscle relaxation. You want your legs dropping down from a relaxed hip, right down to the ground. Stirrups are simply there to 'catch' your downwards motion, so they stop the toe but allow the heel to keep going. Does that make sense? 

That's why it's easier to keep your heels down after a long time no stirrups. No stirrups relaxes your leg (as it gives it room to stretch/fall naturally), and adding the stirrups creates a lifted toe/deep heel.

As for why, it's about balance. Personally, I used to ride with really cramped legs. My hips were tight, my hamstrings were tight... my knees were practically up around ears my leg was so scrunched up. I couldn't stretch it down though. I used to stand in my stirrups, balancing over my toes with all my weight in the ball of my foot. This was not good. I had really bad balance problems. I would use my stirrup/ball of my foot to leverage myself out of the saddle, which gave me no stability what so ever. My center of gravity would be waaay too far forward, and if the horse ever took a step wrong I would go flying up the neck.

My coach started giving me lunge lessons no stirrups, stretch exercises, lots of no stirrup work and lots of work on the two-point on the flat. Hips relaxed, legs lengthened, my hamstring relaxed and my entire leg dropped down. With my leg dropping, my center of gravity dropped down as well and I became much more balanced. I felt like I was actually cemented to the horse, and riding became MUCH easier. 

In short, it's easier to ride correctly with a long relaxed leg.


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## chevysmum (Sep 30, 2009)

GeminiJumper,
That makes sense posting from your calf now - I will try that today. We don't ever do stirrupless riding (green horse) but I will give it a try. thanks for the clarity.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Misfit said:


> Stirrups are simply there to 'catch' your downwards motion, so they stop the toe but allow the heel to keep going. Does that make sense?


So it's exactly the opposite of say pedaling a bike, where you are exerting force through your legs to the balls of the feet?


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## SoMuchManureSoLittleTime (Jul 6, 2009)

*My Problem Solved*

Now this may be too simplistic, but I had trouble with heels down. I've had bad ankles and leg injuries. Keeping heels down was very, very painful.

A wise instructor worked with me on adjusting stirrup length up and down and all around. After some experimentation, my stirrups were shortened a tad and VOILA - no more pain.

Sometimes it can be a simple mechanical adjustment that can make all the difference between agony and comfort.

After all the analyzing I had been doing, the solution was so simple and I had not figured it out.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> So it's exactly the opposite of say pedaling a bike, where you are exerting force through your legs to the balls of the feet?


Yep. Although, I bike through my heels. Horseback riding has ruined me. :lol:


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Misfit puts things well
A one liner might say "heels up, toes down is an indication that the rider is sitting under tension (in the calves, hamstrings and feet)
"heels down, toes up" is an indication that the rider is sitting relaxed but secure.

But to change a rider's leg and seating position to bring the heels down takes firstly an understanding of the theory and then a re-education of the sub concious brain.

It is so important that the early learner rider is shown how to sit properly
from the beginning otherwise they may well develop the wrong reactions and muscles. Then they are faced later with having to unlearn what they took hours to learn and re learn how to do it correctly.

But pushing the heels down at the mere call of an instructor is not the answer - the concious brain has to understand why it is necessary.

Barry G


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Lots of long winded explanations. Simply try the two styles......heels up....or heels down.

Go around the ring in a galloping position/two point. Put your heels as far down as you can. Go around the ring. Then put your heels as far up as you can. You will, probably, pitch forward onto your horses neck and totally lose your balance. If you like pitching off balance, ride with your heels up. If you like staying balanced, ride with your heels down. Ride whichever way you like.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

After all of the postings on this thread there now should be no problem in reaching the conclusion that when riding a typical English style saddle in accordance with classical riding techniques that the heels should *fall *down to a position where the toes can be lifted to sit on the stirrup irons. Those adult riders who were lucky enough to find at an early stage in their riding careers an instructor who showed them how to sit correctly with the legs falling down on either side of the horse’s barrel will soon find the position comfortable and instinctive. Likewise the young novice rider, with no preconceived ideas of riding techniques, will probably also find the correct seat naturally. After all the saddle was originally designed to fit the correct riding position.

But the rider who was not shown the correct seating position from the very beginning may well adopt a leg position which suits his/her physique and they may find that to balance themselves they utilize the balls of their feet on the stirrups rather than their overall seating position to maintain their position up on the horse.

Probably learning to post to the trot starts the process The longer these riders adopt an incorrect position, which will become ingrained in their brains, the harder it will be for them to adopt the ‘correct’ position. In addition the horse with the broader back may hinder the “delinquent/(toes down)” rider’s search for the correct leg position, because of the need to stretch the legs wider at the crutch.

When the “delinquent” rider eventually goes for lessons then most likely the fault will be picked up by the instructor - who invariably calls out “heels down” - in which case the delinquent rider will push their heels down so as to show compliance with the instruction. But the position of the leg will not necessarily be changed and when the rider next comes under stress almost invariably the heels will rise - because that is what the rider’s brain has been trained by rote to do.

The rider who does not have the toes down/ heels up problem finds it difficult to understand why the delinquent rider finds it hard to keep the heels down. Many seem to think that if the command “heels down” is called, then the delinquent rider merely has to remember to push the heels down. Most students of course will immediately push the heels down, but the underlying fault in their riding technique will remain. Only those students who have been manhandled into the correct position and who are then given exercises to retain that position will ever come to adopt the correct position.

And No, those riders won’t come out of the saddle at the slightest shy by the horse - they will probably have discovered saddles with deep seats and predominant knee rolls. And I am more inclined to believe that it is the wearing of unsuitable riding boots and the fitting of too narrow a stirrup iron which might present a bigger hazard of being dragged. Although I personally have yet to witness a rider dragged. - it is not a common event.

I can shorten this discussion. As a good swimmer I can’t understand why any human wearing just a swimming costume believe that they can’t swim in a swimming pool. If they stay perfectly still and close their mouths the volume of air in their lungs will cause them to float - even in fresh water. Yet I am useless at convincing this to a non swimmer. Their brains simply won’t let go of their fear of drowning. It is a similar situation here - pressure on the stirrup irons with the ball of the foot gives the toes down/heels up rider confidence and soon pressure on the stirrup bar becomes an instinctive reaction. This “delinquent” rider has to relearn how to sit in the saddle and as Dr Alexander will tell you - the sub conscious brain only learns by constant repetition. First the rider has to unlearn the old technique and then overprint the correct technique. That takes time and a lot of persistence. So, one line answers from “correct” riders don’t help the “delinquent” rider.

Already yet another thread has been started on the same subject by another rider who can’t keep her heels down. This problem won’t go away. The older one gets the more difficult it will be to change significantly the riding style adopted in youth. 

A further problem these days in Britain is that instructors are inhibited by law from touching the thighs of students.


In an attempt to highlight the difficulty some older riders have in keeping the heels down in the next post I have recorded my own experiences. But there is also an implication for the younger rider - get the leg position correct before it becomes too difficult to correct the fault.
Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

THE MATTER OF FINDING THE CORRECT LEG POSITION
In an attempt to learn to sit correctly I embarked on a series of lessons with a Classical riding instructor. At the very beginning it was pointed out that my leg and foot position was wrong. but maybe I had an excuse in that my pelvis was slightly out of position. Here are extracts of the process of learning to sit correctly. “Pushing the heels” down is not the answer to the problem of heels up or down - adjusting the leg position is.


QUOTE:
_This week the lesson focussed on me again. Nowadays it is not just my back or my hands or my looking down through Joe’s ears - it’s my legs. I have got to get the legs to reach down towards the ground, so that if the horse were taken away, then I could still stand up. Just imagine, I’ve got to wrap my thighs around the Boy’s ample chest and then allow them to drop down perpendicularly toward the ground in such a way that the heels are below the ball of the foot. At the same time the centre line of the foot must run parallel to the centre line of the horse. Now if I had swivels instead of joints then this might prove to be easier but these joints I have were made for walking and the undoubted fact that I waddle like a duck when walking is no accident. I climbed aboard and managed to get in just one circuit of the arena at the walk before I was pulled up short by the fence. Then came the (wo)manhandling. The ankle was bent around, the knee pushed this way and that and came one special neat little wrench which was particularly excruciating. Finally it seems the leg was in the right position - the fact that I felt like a peg wrapped around a towel on a clothes line was irrelevant. Seemingly if I want to sit on Joe correctly and ride properly, then I must learn how to sit up straight and, what’s more, I must hold the correct position throughout the ride. _
UNQUOTE

QUOTE
_Meantime, I, after a brief sitting up on Joe, had been ushered off to the temporary torture chamber rigged up in C's sitting room. At first the commands were innocuous enough : “leg up“, “leg down” , “lean this way“, “lean that way”, then eventually: “take your clothes off and lie down on your back!“. The Lady Kay then produced a long strap which she passed around my stripped off naked left thigh and returned it back around her clothed right thigh. She then pulled the strap tight thereby bringing both thighs together. Then she took hold of the knee in a wrestling grip normally seen on TV. One wonders whether this procedure is, under some ancient law, confined to the privacy of one’s own house. But then came the wrenching - three times in all, and on each occasion there was the innocent question of “how’s that feel?” The errant pelvis had thus been reset. What was one supposed to say - one had put oneself into the hands of this knowledgeable lady and she had used her strong hands with undeniable impact. Then came the request from her for one or two very simple movements, which amazingly proved to be difficult to complete. But that’s what happens when over a period of years one’s body deforms by natural process as a result of either disuse or misuse. _
_It is undeniably true, that if Joe is to carry at speed, and in equilibrium, 100 kilos of rider over uneven ground, then the rider’s weight must be distributed evenly across the horse’s back. The big difficulty for the rider is to maintain equal weight distribution whilst the horse is moving. To be fair, the instructor was doing her best to make this movement possible by the rider. It was then time to return to the arena, where Joe was by now tacked up with his borrowed saddle. Myself nursing a bruised pelvis, then rode around the arena to the close inspection of a small group of horsey ladies._
UNQUOTE

QUOTE
_“There was to be another lesson with Lady K in the arena. The next hour or so was spent discussing the principles behind the positioning of the lower leg. Lady K adjusted this limb, that knee and the other ankle and suddenly it happened. Stars twinkled up in the sky, a bright glow erupted to the East and I suddenly realised that I had managed: foot straight, toes up, heels down, firm and steady in the stirrup iron - without any conscious pressure downwards through the ball of the foot. What’s more, Joe was firmly clasped between both legs - he couldn’t go anywhere without my knowing in advance. And amazingly, the posture could be held without effort. It was my first time - ever- after all these years of riding.” _
UNQUOTE

I did indeed acquire the "correct" position for once in my life. But I have never managed to acquire it again. The manipulation of the pelvis and hips gave rise to considerable pain over the following days so much that I had to stop riding to wait for the skeleton to settle. 

It is an undoubted fact that if the rider walks properly upright with decent posture - and sits upright with a straight back at all times - then they should find "heels down" no problem. But how many of us walk and sit properly?

The point is, that the rider's pelvis and hip action should be correct before the rider's leg can hang - regardless of how they have learned to ride. 

Barry G

.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> As a good swimmer I can’t understand why any human wearing just a swimming costume believe that they can’t swim in a swimming pool. If they stay perfectly still and close their mouths the volume of air in their lungs will cause them to float - even in fresh water.


Except that this is not universally true. Some people, particularly those with a low body fat percentage, simply can't float. These days I'm on the borderline: I float if I take in a deep breath and hold it, but if I exhale, I sink. Despite which, I love swimming. It's just that for me, staying on top of the water is always an active process.

Maybe something similar is the case with the heels? Some people's bodies fall more or less naturally into the "correct" position, some don't.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

James
What you say about exhaling is correct - the knack is to kick with the feet, push with the hands and bring the head nose and mouth out of the water , then to exhale and inhale very quickly whilst the mouth and nose are clear.
It is harder in fresh water than salt water.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah, that was my point, that while some people can float naturally and without doing anything, for others it's a knack or skill that has to be acquired, just like the "heels down" riding position.


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## alli09 (Oct 23, 2009)

It's painful for me to keep my heels down, but I know it's the safest way to go so I keep them down.


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## EventinginMI (Sep 4, 2009)

Riding with Margaret Spencer has made me learn, very, very well, what MIE was referring to. "Seat, seat, seat," has been drilled into me so much now, that I can't remember how I rode when I had no concept of seat. 
I first began riding under a bad coach, but I didn't know that at the time- heck, I was seven, it was a fancy barn, horses were nice, I jumped, and it was fun. I am so grateful that she had to sell the farm- I never would have known any better.
Riding with Margaret has expanded my horizons. Last winter, I think I rode with my stirrups once. Bareback or stirrup-less, I learned that seat is everything, not my hands, not my heels. I had never been taught that seat was so important, but last winter, man, was I slammed with it. =]
Yeah, riding without stirrups scared me at first- I was all over the place, scared to trot, afraid I would come off. Now, I love it. I think it's the most connected I can ever feel to my equine partner. Frankly, if I could, I would ride stirrup-less, even bareback, in shows. My warm-up and cool-down consists of crossed irons, both to stretch and relax my legs, as well as to balance and find my seat.
Stirrups and heels aren't really the question- it's whether or not you have the seat and leg strength to ride without. Riding without improved my position overall so much that I keep it a regular aspect in my riding. Who needs heels and stirrups when they can have seat and legs?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread continues to attract readers - yet the debate has not yet reached an obvious conclusion other than:

The position of the foot and angle of the heel is decided by the position of the riders leg and under thigh.
Some riders find it positively difficult to _maintain_ a heels down position of the foot.

So _do we see the culprit to be the stirrup?_

Is the stirrup iron a positive aid to rider stability and an essential item 
of safety equipment?

or 

Is the stirrup the root of all evil which encourages the rider to sit incorrectly by allowing the foot, when firmly planted in the stirrup iron, to be used as a re-balancing aid. _ Should we discard the stirrup?_

Is the prime function of the stirrup iron to be to assist mounting?

Is a key function of a stirrup iron for male riders, who are physiologically different from women, to avoid pain?

But if we say the stirrup iron is irrelevant then:

Why should we want to discard the use of the toes as a balancing aid?

and 

Why do women insist on wearing high heeled shoes?

Barry G


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## EventinginMI (Sep 4, 2009)

I guess it did sound like I was saying stirrups are irrelevant- I wasn't actually meaning to. Stirrups do help in mounting, yes, and in Eventing, especially cross-country, it is nice to have an emergency balancer. I would stress that I think it's important that beginner riders learn _without _stirrups, both to develop seat, but almost as importantly, leg strength. I see so many riders relying too much on their stirrups to post, hold 2-point, or really do much of anything. Though frustrating, and time-consuming, riding without stirrups is an exellent way to gain balance and riding ability. There are just too many riders riding, showing, and eventing simply because they have the money to pay entry fees and purchase horses who will do their best to stay under them and make them look good. Riding takes work, and stirrups _can _be the one riding aid that hinders more than helps, if people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to ride well without relying on safety nets and cheat-sheets.
~Dinah

P.S: High heels make me too tall, so I usually don't, but I'm among the uncommon few. =] They do make us feel prettier, though.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

This thread is so very interesting, I was so engrossed I over ran the idle time limit on a game. 
I've always been taught heels down as well and until one instructor would correct my leg I probably rode with a horrible leg position. I actually got into the habit of pushing my heels down too far and found out that once I had my feet in the stirrups my heels would relax down so I stopped pushing them down and my balance improved no end. I would often ride out then kick my feet out of the stirrups and go for a trot and canter. One thing that helped me was learning how to do rising trot without stirrups, nearly killed my muscles.
Like you though I would end up in pain from pushing my heels down because I actually can't do it due to having flat feet so my ankles have developed in a funny way so I can't move my ankles as well as other people.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

(I haven't read every post on the thread)

I was always told to keep my heels down, and I've never had a problem keeping my heels down, I was told it was to help keep my seat deep in the saddle and to help keep my upper body straight - supposedly if you point your toes down you tilt your whole body forward...

In later years I've been told it's so that you calf muscle is 'tense' and becomes a more efficient aid as the horse can immediately feel you using your legs, which I suppose makes sense!






Barry Godden said:


> Is the stirrup iron a positive aid to rider stability and an essential item of safety equipment?


Um, I'm going to say "yes" to both parts of the question...



> Is the stirrup the root of all evil which encourages the rider to sit incorrectly by allowing the foot, when firmly planted in the stirrup iron, to be used as a re-balancing aid. _ Should we discard the stirrup?_


I don't use my stirrups to balance myself - having even length stirrups would [obviously] help you to make sure you sit squarely on the horse's back, I've been told not to 'lean' on the stirrup iron, but to push my weight into my heels and let my toes rest in the stirrup. I do often have a problem keeping my feet in the stirrups for some reason!



> Is the prime function of the stirrup iron to be to assist mounting?


If it weren't for stirrups I wouldn't be able to get on the horse unless someone lifted me in a crane! :lol:



> Is a key function of a stirrup iron for male riders, who are physiologically different from women, to avoid pain?


I'm a woman so first of all I have to do the obligatory girlie laugh at the mental image of a man getting a whack in the unmentionables :lol: :lol: 

If you're sitting correctly on your seat bones, your 'little friend' shouldn't be in any danger!! 



> Why should we want to discard the use of the toes as a balancing aid?


I'll have to try riding toes down and get back to you on that one! 



> Why do women insist on wearing high heeled shoes?


I don't wear high heels


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## Huckleberry (Nov 9, 2009)

I read the first four or so pages of this thread and no one mentioned that your entire leg position (and entire body position) will significantly change if you heels are up vs. down. 

The heel being down with weight sinking into it elongates the entire leg. Your thigh becomes more vertical and your calf can lay softly against your horse. Proper position for any number of reasons: balance, effective and economic use of aids, safety, etc. 

If your heel is up, your calf anatomically cannot lay softly against your horse and your thigh becomes more vertical. This puts you out of balance, with no security and no effective way to produce the aids. It will also effect your seat by influencing the pelvis. Often you will see riders with this position leaning or hunched forwards, trying to maintain their balance and pinching in with their knees for (false) security. This is because the heel up has made their leg fairly useless and influenced their seat poorly and now they are in a position resembling sitting in a chair with the ball of their toes resting on the floor. In riding the upper body will come forward to try to regain balance. Unfortunately, this puts you in a very precarious position and if something unexpected happens, or beyond the persons ability to balance in their poor position, they will then fall off. Usually over the horses shoulder. 

The seat is extremely important in balance, independence of aids and security, however you will not ever achieve a really good seat with a really bad leg. The two are connected! 

You can see this for yourself by having an educated rider, who is capable of a correct position demonstrate the heel down vs. heel up. Don't just look at the foot and ankle! Watch the WHOLE body, especially look at how the entire leg shortens and goes upwards when the heel comes up. 

You can also see the difference yourself by standing on the bottom stair of a staircase with the balls of your feet on the edge of the stair and the majority of your feet hanging off. Hold onto a railing for balance in the beginning. And again, do this on the BOTTOM stair. Keep some bend in the knee and bounce a little. Allow the weight and small impact of the bounce to go into your heel. (Yet another reason for heels down while riding - shock absorption). Do that for a minute. Then go ahead and put your heel up. Feel how your entire body position has to change to maintain your balance now. Try bouncing now. 

It is okay if you cannot get your heel down, some people cannot. But you should keep trying to stretch and try to increase flexibility. And you should keep trying to achieve the process of allowing any weight to go down to the heel even if it's not visibly lower. Allowing the weight to go to your toe will make your body want to keep tipping forwards. So even if the heel isn't down, putting your weight/shock absorption there will help you maintain your balance and a better position. 

It's not easy. But there are ALOT of reasons for it and it is correct.


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## Tara1981 (Nov 8, 2009)

*An instructor who told me not to put heels down*

The best instructor I ever had explained everything so that I understood why, just like you suggest they should, Barry.
My first lesson with her I was trying to make a good impression so I had my heels very much down. The first thing she said is 'Bl**dy pony club!' and told me to stop forcing my heels down. She told me it would make my leg shoot forward and leave me behind the movement. Rather I should imagine my weight going into my little toe, which would curl my leg around the horse, giving my leg stability. Instantly, I felt like my position was more natural, but it also looked correct -just not that exaggerated heels down position I had before. It also rolled my thighs forward so it wasn't the backs of my thighs that were in contact with the saddle but the insides. My knee could also relax. All of these things mean more of your leg is in contact with the horse, meaning that your aids will be more accurate and clear and your seat more stable. My seat and leg position still needs work, but I'm convinced it won't get better until I commit to improving the flexibility of my hamstrings. I have never tried posting without stirrups but I'm going to have a go asap! I can't really answer the question about the point of stirrups. My feeling is that for dressage they shouldn't really be necessary and I can imagine a day when we don't use stirrups for dressage at all (I don't expect it, but I can imagine it).


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The thread goes on. 1700 plus viewers - amazing. Obviously still a hot topic.

Yes, both Tara and Huckleberry add to the discussion in clear terminology. In order to keep the heels down without stress, it is essential that the leg is rolled inwards so that the inside of the thigh comes in contact - the foot will then be aligned with the body of the horse. Thereby a newcomer acquires a nice firm seat. Well done.

I have no questions about the correct way but I do have serious doubts as to whether many of we “heels up” folks can ever safely achieve “heels down”. 
It is also agreed that to force the heels down without rolling the leg is a false movement - the heel (and the leg) should drop of its own accord. The rider in question is obviously looking to please the instructor - it won’t achieve a safer position.

The fact remains that the mature rider who has ridden for many years with “heels up” and who rides by balancing out pressure generated through the balls of the feet onto the stirrup bars will find it difficult to change his/her action. They may have lessons and they may be told to push heels down but whether they can override an acquired and now instinctive reaction to exert pressure through the balls of the foot is very problematical. As a reflex action the heels will continue to rise in an emergency. 
The older the rider is, the harder it will be to maintain the desired result of “heels down“. For a start the rider will have first had to stretch the hamstrings and the other calf and ankle focussed ligaments.
By using the stirrup bars as balancing aids the heels up riders have acquired a sense of security by exerting pressure through their feet and especially through their toes when pushing down. The brain has adjusted and has made compensations for the rider’s fundamental state of imbalance.

If the stirrups are taken away from these heels up riders, they will have nothing to use as leverage to stay on the back of the horse in times of stress - other than a little help from knee rolls or a high pommel (such as the horn of a Western saddles) or a high cantle such as is to be found on some Spanish saddles. Without stirrups, unless these riders are wedged in the saddle - they will come off. They know that. They won’t try to ride without stirrups. 
If when out riding they do lose a stirrup, they will be vulnerable. So such riders will concentrate on not losing the stirrup by maintaining a constant pressure on the stirrup bar. They will learn the knack. The brain will have been accustomed to rebalancing itself by pushing down - if necessary with a significant percentage of their total body weight - onto the stirrup bars. They will lean, they will grip, they will shift weight. They will stay mounted. But the horse masters looking on won’t approve.

Further more if the “heels up” rider has deficiencies in the ears, the eyes, a misplaced pelvis or problems in the hips then if they attempt to change their leg position to “heels down“, they may well lose the benefit of the adjustments their brain has made as compensation over the years for a fundamental and incurable state of imbalance.

The curious rider may well understand why and what to do as best practice but they may themselves not be able to instinctively respond correctly in times of emergency. To illustrate the problem, as a right handed person ‘instruct’ yourself to write with the left hand? One writes “instinctively”

But, anyway, why change the habits of a lifetime?
The stirrups are there as a standard fitting on the saddle why not use them? They are an aid to safety - why discard them?
Is there any real benefit from be able to ride without stirrups?
Will the “heels up” rider be more secure in the saddle by trying to learn to sit correctly?
Indeed, will the “heels up” rider be more vulnerable to a fall during the process of trying to change their leg and heel position? 
My farrier said today that the chance of deliberately modifying the gait of a horse after the age of 6 is minimal. The chance of modifying the ‘riding action’ of an adult human say over 20 years of age is also minimal. As the saying goes “you can’t teach an old dog(horse?) new tricks”

So why try? If I am thereby to forsake the pleasure of being judged favourably in a dressage competition - is that such a high price to pay? 

I must confess as a very aged rider, my ideas on the subject are personal. I realize my balancing mechanism is compromised but I am not alone in my plight. Such folks as I can form a club worldwide.

I can still ride a horse, although I shall never again exhibit a shapely ankle. My feet will be firmly home on the stirrup bars which I shall use like the rudder of a plane. Those heels, bless their cotton socks, are still going to rise - inevitably.

You folks who were lucky enough to be taught to ride correctly, when you were young and impressionable, spare a thought for, and have mercy upon, we poor mature souls who can’t keep our heels down. Look the other way. Luckily my horse, DiDi, knows only too well my little weaknesses and she compensates for my fallability

Barry G


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## Huckleberry (Nov 9, 2009)

*But, anyway, why change the habits of a lifetime?*
Why not? Why quit smoking, or eat better or exercise more, or take up a new hobby or learn a new skill? ... to improve oneself in some way. 

*The stirrups are there as a standard fitting on the saddle why not use them? They are an aid to safety - why discard them?*
What happens when you lose a stirrup? Or a leather breaks? 

*Is there any real benefit from be able to ride without stirrups?*
Yes, there are many. Among them is improving the seat and being able to actually stay on your horse without either or both stirrups in a emergency situation. 

*Will the “heels up” rider be more secure in the saddle by trying to learn to sit correctly?*
The heels up rider won't be able to learn to sit correctly. The heel being up effects everything above it. 

*Indeed, will the “heels up” rider be more vulnerable to a fall during the process of trying to change their leg and heel position? *
The heels up rider is vulnerable to falls at all times. You are in a constantly insecure position. Sorry, but that is the truth. 

*My farrier said today that the chance of deliberately modifying the gait of a horse after the age of 6 is minimal. The chance of modifying the ‘riding action’ of an adult human say over 20 years of age is also minimal. As the saying goes “you can’t teach an old dog(horse?) new tricks”*
I think your farrier was most likely referring to deliberately changing the gait of a horse by way of modifying the hoof. If you haven't done the modification by that age, it can be very hard to change it later. Ask anyone who has gotten a OTTB with under run heels. Really hard to fix once they've been trimmed/growing that way for years. 

*So why try? If I am thereby to forsake the pleasure of being judged favourably in a dressage competition - is that such a high price to pay?
*Why try to improve at anything? Why learn anything? Why not accept the level it takes to "just get by" in any enterprise? 

Look Barry, if you can't get your heels down, then you can't. Not the end of the world. But it will limit your skill level, prevent you from improving and keep you in a position where you are at risk for a fall at any time. If you just can't get your heels to sink down (not jammed down, etc).. then you just can't. No one is saying you should not ride, or whatnot... go enjoy your horse, have fun, don't worry about being perfect. It IS possible to enjoy riding and horse ownership without being a picture perfect top notch rider. But in lessons or conversations with instructors (the point of which is invariably to learn to ride better) you're always going to come up against the fact that heels up is never going to be A-OK because it DOES directly effect how good a rider you will be able to become. It directly effects the leg and seat... which then effects everything else. 

Don't worry about it if you don't want to. It's OK to just have fun and enjoy your horse. Really! Just don't expect anyone worth their salt to tell you it's OK, or just as good as heels down, to have your heels up.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Huckleberry
In your last post, on the last paragraph you almost sum it up. I don't question what you have written and I agree with most of it.

What I have been trying to put over in the thread - is the problem that the rider who has not learned to roll the leg and who has always ridden with heels up is that the move towards heels down calls for considerable effort and persistance. Even significant help from a physio therapist. The instructor calling out "heels down" is not enough.

But what I have also been trying to put over by coming back on this thread is that during the process of learning to get it right - which will take months - they run the risk of being vulnerable to a fall.
They have to re educate that part of the brain which controls their instinctive reflex actions and that is not easy. Whenever their balance is threatened - their heels will come up before the part of the brain they can influence says "keep (not push) the heel down"

I am not typical of the likely readers of this forum. I am too old and have skeletal defects in my pelvis, and lower back. My riding career has not long to go. In fact I can keep my heels down now for much of the time - but I do not "feel" more secure. And not "feeling" secure brings tension - yet another difficult to cure problem.

But there are other folks out there - I even wonder if the majority of the viewers - who have the same or similar problem. If they have read all of the posts then they should by now see why the effort to get the heels down is worthwhile.

To help such folks as me:
first they have to understand.
then they have to seek help. 
then they have to persist. 
And because the route to succes is difficult they need to believe that what they are attempting to achieve is worthwhile over the longer term

Hopefully the contents of this thread - if the viewers read it all the way through - will help them to understand the theories involved.

Barry


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

I ride dressage so will answer based on that discipline.

If you were to ride in a heels up position your leg muscles would have to be contracted to maintain that position and when posting you would be gripping with your knees and pushing up with your toes - making the stirrup more likely to move as you post and the knee would pinch the horses shoulder, discouraging horse from moving forward freely. That improper leg position in turn de-stabilizes the entire leg. 

In dressage we don't worry about heels down ( that also contracts leg muscles) - it's more the stirrups must be short enough that your weight in your legs naturally pushes your heels down, not your muscles, hence the muscles are not taunt but draped around the horses barrel - like a wet noodle. 

Adding to that if you open you hips to sit deeper this will tend to turn your toes more inward than their natural position - so when I do this my toes actually point straight ahead, as their natural position would be pointing outwards from the horse at a 20 degree angle.


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## PaintingMissy (Nov 9, 2009)

If you want to get your weight in your heel my trainer made me put my irons on my heel. Take your leathers down a couple of holes and put your heels in the irons. This sounds easy but is incredibly hard but with some patience and much readjusting of irons you will find that you naturally put more weight in your irons. Since inorder to keep our irons the majority or your weight needs to be in your heel.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

On the thread goes - 2168 viewers - wow.
Must be a hot topic.

I suggest folks go look at a thread 
"Information on Irish Draughts" on "Horse Breeds"

There are several interesting photos of horse and rider in action.
Two photos are of barrel racers - one absolutely magnificent ID - going round a barrel with *toes* firmly DOWN
& one of a nice young rider on the same ID with *heels *firmly DOWN.

The barrel racers certainly have good seats, and they aren't going to come off
and if they do fall - their feet are going to come out of those stirrups without any problem.

So explain ladies - what's going on?

Baary G


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## Pinto Pony (Jul 28, 2008)

What about other forms of exercise to help you break the old habits. I think with riding yoga goes hand in hand, also Tai Chi. The breathing, the balance, the stretching, the controlled movements and being aware etc all are very relative to being on a horses sensitive back. After a few yoga sessions a week I always feel more aware of what my muscles are doing and much more flexible but controlled.
I hardly ride with my heels down, pretty much a level foot when I am riding in long stirrups and slightly down in shorter stirrups and I find I have a pretty good lower leg. The moment my heel slips up, usually during jumping, I notice my leg rides back, I fall forward and the slightest movement in the wrong direction by my horse I will land on my head. Or sometimes on ponies asking for canter my heel slips up, I tip forward and I loose my balance during the transition, making the slopey transition my fault. When I am aware that keeping my heel relatively down and asking for the transition, I keep my seat and can drive the horse into a nice canter.


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

This is a really interesting thread! I've read all of it like it was some kind of manual and I find it very useful.

I've been riding on and off for 4 years now but never had any proper lessons. I just kind of got on my horse and went trail riding (western horse, western saddle, not anything too difficult). But now I've started taking lessons in English riding, with an English saddle and everything, and well... it's quite a challenge!
On my third lesson (yesterday) my trainer showed me how to put my foot, where, and with those heels down! I do know all the reasons why the heels should be down, but from theory to practice there is quite a difference. 
I can still recall the feeling of being insecure in the saddle, the description that Valentina has made above sums it up perfectly. While posting the trot my toes came down, my legs were moving a lot, I felt like falling forward and grabbed with my knees. Not right! 
I have not been taught any bad position and do not have to cope with changing bad habits (like Barry) but I have my age against me, things don't come naturally as they would to a child. I analyse too much (for example sitting here and reading about the heel position for an hour now) instead of just feeling the right position (while on the horse).

When I was a child I just went skiing without knowing anything about it, and after a couple of falls I just kind of figured out how to stay put, to turn, to stop, to do all kind of things. It was easy and I always wondered why everybody thought it was difficult. 

I guess I should try the same approach to horse back riding. Those heels might just find their (right) position without me noticing it?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Lenuccia
It is never a bad idea to sit and read about how to ride a horse.

Try it with a glass of Soave in your hand next time.

Barry G


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

Barry,

Mmmm... that sounds like a good idea  But yesterday I actually sat reading with a small glass of amaro (Italian bitter - with liquorice taste) and I enjoyed the reading. I just wonder if all this reading will help me while I'm in the saddle. It should, I know it should, but will I ever get to just DO it right without thinking or will I always have to THINK to be able to do it right?
That is the question :lol:

Lene


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Lenuccia
Now you have hit the spot - it is all about this sub conscious brain which keeps us up in the saddle. You don't think about how to respond to a stress or strain - either you have responded already or you are on the floor.
The accepted route to riding ability is by rote - constant repetition - but if you don't learn when young , the older body might not react as it is supposed to. What always makes me envious is to watch a 5 or 6 year old youngster get up on a horse and sit in perfect posture without any tuition whatsoever.

But I am pleased to say that I have abused this body of mine. It has been down to 210 feet breathing from a bottle of compressed air and it has been up to 5000 ft in a small plane with an engine smaller than that of the car I left on the ground. I have fallen off numerous horse - too many to remember and I have survived several nasty car crashes. 
So perhaps I should not be worrying about why a youngster can sit a horse better than me. I am lucky to have known a few good horses.

What disturbingly everyone tells me is that the regular reading of horsey books with a glass of wine in my left hand has done me more harm than 
all those other incidents. But I am not so sure. Anyway I don't believe them. 

Which reminds me, my glass is empty.

Barry G


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## cobbywob (Nov 24, 2009)

Ah now then Mr. Godden - have read this long and interesting thread, sort of relates to my riding, not so much the heels down but keeping the feet in and not sticking out at a jaunty angle?

Had been moderately happy with my riding skills - enough anyway to safely hack about with, which is all the old body is capable of these days. Never had a formal lesson until very recently. Tried it more as an interesting exercise in 'am I still doing it right or not?' kind of way. Turned out that, whoopee, Yes!! I am still doing it right apart from the old tootsies sticking out like little ears on a leprechaun!:wink:

So I dutifully went home and sort of experimented with by ugly old feet, to see could I actually turn them inwards when not on board neddy. Erm... NO I cant - seems the ankles have sort of occified along with the rest of me.

Studied lots of books, web sites, etc. in an attempt to understand and correct how I SHOULD be riding - chucked said books in the bin - avoid forums that tell me how I should be doing it. I am now happy to slurp on a nice little glass of vino, whilst I reflect on my happy little hacket with my tootsies sticking out, probably my hands about 6 inches from where they should be, my rear end where its comfortable for me and not where RI seems to think it should be placed?

Stop fretting, enjoy your wine and more importantly enjoy your riding whilst you (and me!:lol can still get on the wretched beast!

Cheers


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Cobbywob

There is a British lady rider called Mary King - she regularly wins these cross country event competitions. But her style - well it doesn't really matter - she is a queen. She stays on, she gets her horse round a very tricky course and she does it all in the shortest of times. If only I could emulate her - but sadly I can't. We should all know our place - mine is mucking out.

So as you say - it is all about enjoying oneself, staying on, and getting both horse and rider back home safely. We must make do with the body we have got, whilst we still have use of it.

Neither my current horse DiDI nor my previous horse Joe seek/sought a glass of wine but both looked for some form of appreciation for services rendered. So when we do reach the pub it is each to our own choice of treat: Joe had a packet of salt and vinegars - DiDi is happy with a few horse biscuits. Me, well I get a glass of red. Just as well really, we would not want to see DiDi being breathalysed before she got back to the yard when riding back from the pub.

Heels up or heels down - well it all depends on what we can manage nowadays - doesn't it? Despite all of the good advice on this thread - those heels won't stay down - they pop up at the slightest of opportunities. I accept it would be nice to peek at those toes but these days it just ain't possible.

B G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

It is my birthday today and my wife did an album of photos of the horses in my life - going back 37 years. There's me with a black beard - instead of grey - riding a very young horse, sitting bolt upright, with my heels very slightly down, on a longish rein.
Times have changed.
As I stood up from the table after looking at this magnificent collection of photos, I ached just a little bit; I squeaked just a little bit; I hunched just a little. Then I smiled at the memories each photo brought into my mind so I made the effort to pull my self up straight and it worked.

I wonder if I go and get on DiDi today - if those heels will stay down and that back will straighten up?

Barry G

Ps At least there is a bottle on the shelves down at the supermarket which could solve the problemn of the grey hairs and I suppose I could buy a corset.


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## cobbywob (Nov 24, 2009)

*Ps At least there is a bottle on the shelves down at the supermarket which could solve the problemn of the grey hairs and I suppose I could buy a corset.

*The mind boggles, large transvestite with obviously died hair and a not very fetching corset, drunk as a lord wandering around on poor horse who is mortified with shame by his riders latest antics:lol: Happy Birthday!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Hold on, hold on.
What's all this about wearing women's clothes?

The jodhs wont fit the bottom half 
and my chest is not big enough for the top half
Anyway Her Indoors's boots are too small. (I have aready tried them when mine were muddy)

Even on my birthday Mr Plod would lock me up 
- if he could catch me mounted on my speedy Irish steed.

B G


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

oh, its good to laugh! just a little hint that i was told, to lenghten those hamstrings and stretch those poor old muscles; it may have been previously mentioned, if so i apologise. stand on the stairs with your heels hanging over the back, hold on to the handrail!! ( you can do it on a couple of sturdy books placed on the floor too) and then gently bounce back onto your heels, each time trying to stretch a little more down, dont over do it- little and often, every day; the last time i tried it , it definately helped.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

oh another one which might help- i apologise if its already been mentioned; have only skimmed through to the last few pages. a brilliant instructor i used to have used to get you to stand up in stirrups and use your hands to actually pull your inner thigh to the back, ( no mean feat for my thunderthighs) so effectively rolling them, and getting the correct postion. it did seem to help, tho not sure how, when you started to do rising trot, obviuosly the contact was lost, but i think it retrained your muscles where to far so that eventually your body automatically corrects itself.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Heels down or Up*

Well they should always be down but some of us have a problem

B G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Amazingly this thread trickle on - as of today we have just topped 3000 viewings. There aren't many topics that reach this level of interest expecially for a thread started so long ago.

Is it new readers that are reading what has pretty much exhausted the 
ideas on the subject or is it old readers coming back to see if anything fresh has been posted????

Another topic of similar controversy/interest would be riding "long & low/long rein" as against riding "collected/short rein" 

*- do we add it to this thread or do we start a new one?*

B G


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