# Tie-Downs



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Have you found out his reason for throwing his head? Maybe trying to eliminate that could be a good first step........... If the reason for head throwing remains and you introduce a mechanical restraint, it'll be for him like me cutting an onion and taping your eyelids open because your incessant blinking bothers me.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

It is merely because he's just lazy and don't like being told to do something he doesn't want to do. I can tell the day of the run when hes in one of his "moods". Some shows he's perfectly fine, and others he just has an attitude. So I'm trying to figure out a game plan for them off days.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

emick2016 said:


> It is merely because he's just lazy and don't like being told to do something he doesn't want to do. I can tell the day of the run when hes in one of his "moods". Some shows he's perfectly fine, and others he just has an attitude. So I'm trying to figure out a game plan for them off days.


I don't even know where to begin...


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

He really is a different horse, none like I've ever owned or trained.. He's very sensitive on top of all this, he was abused with spurs (I'm guessing) by an old guy who believed that was the only way to get a horse to move. Let me tell you, you do not need spurs to get this guy to move. So any problems with him and advice I get from people to help with them, I have to curve yet to fit what he will work with while still doing as I ask.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I also have a sensitive horse who was treated very roughly by previous owners. Instead of putting some harsher equipment on her, I went lighter. I softened my hands, and put her in a bitless bridle. She used to throw her head up, so I encouraged her to keep it lower by increasing contact when she would put her head high, and reducing contact when she would lower it. Now, she just needs a slight reminder to stay focused. In no way did I ever jerk on the reins, just to be clear! But a high head meant I would have more contact, which I released as soon as she lowered it. I did this at a walk at first, and I'm now doing it at the trot. She still tends to put her head up when she first starts trotting, but will lower it after a few seconds. I give her that time to think about it, but if she keeps it up too long, I start to remind her to put it down again.

That said, I ride English, so this advice may not be useful to you. But there may be ways you can encourage him to relax, and lower his head without resorting to force. I do not believe you would be fixing the problem by just tying your horse's head down. Often, the head thrown up is caused by stress, anxiety, or rough hands. You might also try a few different bits to see if there is one he's more comfortable in. 

You've gotten good results without the spurs a previous owner felt were necessary. Maybe you can try a milder bit or softer hands to see if the horse also responds better to those. 

I do not believe your horse is doing it because he's lazy. He's trying to tell you something.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

I know my horse and I know it is laziness, he wasn't used for about a year and a half before I got him and when I first got him I couldn't get him to do a single thing, to this day, almost 2 years later I still struggle with him not wanting to do anything other than be in the pasture eating hay. I have a very mild bit on him, actually just a split bit. I've tried harsher bits and it made everything 10 times worse, I tried no bit and he didn't respond to any cues at all. I don't ride with harsh hands at all, I never have unless truly needed to be but even then I'd much rather put a harsher bit in the horses mouth using soft hands with that than be rough... Most gamers do use tie downs because of how hot their horses get, and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm confused, so he is hot and lazy at the same time?


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

emick2016 said:


> I know my horse and I know it is laziness, he wasn't used for about a year and a half before I got him and when I first got him I couldn't get him to do a single thing, to this day, almost 2 years later I still struggle with him not wanting to do anything other than be in the pasture eating hay. I have a very mild bit on him, actually just a split bit. I've tried harsher bits and it made everything 10 times worse, I tried no bit and he didn't respond to any cues at all. I don't ride with harsh hands at all, I never have unless truly needed to be but even then I'd much rather put a harsher bit in the horses mouth using soft hands with that than be rough... Most gamers do use tie downs because of how hot their horses get, and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.


no offense meant but you're asking for advice and then dismissing it (or taking it personally). What is the advice you want? What do you want affirmed? What do YOU think is the right answer?

Because honestly more equipment is not the answer. It is just a bandaid on a bullet wound.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, firstly, what exactly are you wanting the tiedown for? Him throwing his head? Then I def agree with others. Get to the root cause & address that. 

I'd ensure you have ruled out/remedied any physical issues first, such as possible mouth/bit pain, back or neck pain, etc. Including that the fit of the bridle & light pressure of your hands is not uncomfortable to him. Regardless how gentle you feel you're being. 

If by 'laziness' you mean that he has learned its an effective way to get out of doing what he doesn't want to, agree it could well be. Therefore it would be a training problem. He needs to be taught that this behavior never works for him. 

If not the above, then I'd be thinking his training was inconsistent, bad timing, unclear or such. 




emick2016 said:


> I know my horse and I know it is laziness, he wasn't used for about a year and a half before I got him and when I first got him I couldn't get him to do a single thing, to this day, almost 2 years later I still struggle with him not wanting to do anything other than be in the pasture eating hay. I have a very mild bit on him, actually just a split bit. I've tried harsher bits and it made everything 10 times worse, I tried no bit and he didn't respond to any cues at all. I don't ride with harsh hands at all, I never have unless truly needed to be but even then I'd much rather put a harsher bit in the horses mouth using soft hands with that than be rough... Most gamers do use tie downs because of how hot their horses get, and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, firstly, what exactly are you wanting the tiedown for? Him throwing his head? Then I def agree with others. Get to the root cause & address that. 

I'd ensure you have ruled out/remedied any physical issues first, such as possible mouth/bit pain, back or saddle or neck pain, etc. Including that the fit of the bridle & light pressure of your hands is not uncomfortable to him. Regardless how gentle you feel you're being. 

If by 'laziness' you mean that he has learned its an effective way to get out of doing what he doesn't want to, agree it could well be. Like a pony who has learned he can be lazy & yank the reins from the kid to eat grass or such. It is a training problem. He needs to be taught that this behavior never works for him. 

If not the above, then I'd be thinking his training was inconsistent, bad timing, unclear or such. He is throwing his head in frustration at un remitting or unclear pressure maybe. 




emick2016 said:


> and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.


See that doesn't sound like a lazy horse at all. 



> 2 years later I still struggle with him not wanting to do anything other than be in the pasture eating hay.


Perhaps by lazy you mean he hates to do stuff with you generally then? Are there some things he enjoys doing with you? Such as running full tilt - or do you think he might be hating that too, just wanting to go full tilt to get it over with?

Is it possible everything is just Work for him? That you need to find ways to make it Play - fun for him? 


> I've tried harsher bits and it made everything 10 times worse, I tried no bit and he didn't respond to any cues at all.


That to me sounds like its not 'laziness' but mouth pain, if he didn't toss his head without a bit. And of course training, if he wouldn't respond without one.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I've seen many more barrel racers used tie-downs than NOT use them. I think it is not necessarily used to keep the hrose from throwing the head, but to give the hrose something to pull against, in effect, to balance off of in the steep turns. At least, that's what I've been told.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yes, and if that were the only reason for it, then a tie down may be appropriate IMO. But using something like that, or doing a sport like that with a horse who is not up to less, be that physically or training-wise is not a good move & is asking for real trouble - definitely for the horse, but far more likely wreck for the rider too.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

emick2016 said:


> Most gamers do use tie downs because of how hot their horses get, and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.


Horses are looking for _release_. The faster he gets the course over with, the faster you'll be off his back. First you make him uncomfortable by urging him on - from what I have seen about barrel racing, this could be quite uncomfortable to the horse - then you compound the release by getting off him as soon as he is done with his circuit. He's not hot, he's not having fun - he wants whatever you are doing with him done and over with.

Now, after practicing a number of times, whenever he sees the course, he knows what's coming. Naturally he's getting anxious about the "beating" he's about to receive. Coming into the arena for him is like you sitting in the waiting room of the dentist, hearing the drill and muffled moans from the treatment room. 

That's where your head shaking comes from.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> emick2016 said:
> 
> 
> > Most gamers do use tie downs because of how hot their horses get, and he is definitely getting to that point of when he sees that arena he's going full tilt.
> ...


that's sad


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm a great believer in the old 'horses for courses' saying
If a horse doesn't enjoy the job you're asking him/her to do then you either have to find a way to make the job more of a pleasure or you need to find a different job for him/her.


Barrel racers will use the tie down for something for the horse to brace against as it turns but that isn't the same thing as using one to cure something that needs to be resolved by training.


Not sure what you mean by a 'split bit' but if its a jointed mouth snaffle and your horse has a tendency to raise its head and pull then you might find that a low ported bit works better for you


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

What exact bit do you use? Can you share a picture? Even one off of Google works.

Head shaking barrel horses are often unhappy about the bit or the hands using it. When was the last time he had his teeth looked at?

I would really like to see a video of you riding him. It's hard to guess the root of the problem without seeing anything at all.

Personally, I am not a big fan of tie downs. I want my horse to be able to use her whole body to turn and stretch out and run without having anything in her way. A lot of barrel horses I see want to stretch their necks down to run but fight the tie down....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

btw. I am not advocating for tied downs. I only mentioned the usage of them as described to me by quite a few barrel riders. It's always good to hear from those that actually compete in that discipline.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

@tinyliny

Using a tie down on a barrel horse is a personal preference. Whatever bits or head gear someone chooses for their barrel horse is just going to be what suits that horse best - what the horse seems to perform best in. As a horse gets more seasoned or even more fit, or schooled differently the equipment used changes too. 

My mare really stretches out, she's the kind that pins her ears, sticks her nose out and runs. If I ran her with a tie down, to allow her to run the way she does, the tie down would have to be so loose that it would be useless. 
As you can see....


And of course.... my mare WANTS to be in that arena when it's game time. She doesn't get hot at the gate, but she zeros in on first barrel and it's game on in her head. You can have a horse with all the talent in the world and if he doesn't want to do it, you aren't going to get very far.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Tiedowns do have their place in the barrel racing world. Some horses do run better when they have something they can balance against. But for the reason you say want to tie down (to keep him from throwing his head) that is not the correct reason to use the title. You will only make him feel more trapped, and worse case scenario, possibly make him start rearing.

I am very confused on your description of him. You say he was abused with spurs and does not need spurs to go. Yet you say he is lazy, yet you say he is hot. From your confusing description, I can only assume that your horse is also confused. 

Do you have a good trainer you can take lessons with?

Head tossing is “cured” by correct timing and release with your rein cues. Of course, you do also need to make sure the horse isn’t tossing his head due to pain. Have a professional help you determine if your saddle fits well. Have him checked by a qualified chiropractor. And have an equine dentist check his teeth. And if necessary, have a good vet do a lameness evaluation. 

Assuming he is not in any pain, then you can begin retraining him to address the head tossing. 

But in this case, I would not recommend a tiedown. That would be improper use of one to just cover up a problem. Tiedowns can be very valuable but only when they are used for the correct reason.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

I may have worded it wrong. Yes i’m going to put down the “advice” people give saying it’s pain. It never fails for people to put pain as the first thing. If this was pain, this horse would let me know. He is VERY sensitive, so if he was in the slightest bit of pain or discomfort I’d know as of previous experiences of him enduring pain. He is regularly checked by vet, farrier (who is also a chiropractor), and the dentist. My bit is not harsh what so ever, it’s just a simple bit i use for trails as well. He doesn’t throw his head on trails or anything like that, but there’s certain days on show days where he goes around the first barrel perfectly, like a dream, and coming around to the second barrel he changes completely as if he’s thrown off balance and goes farther away from the barrel and when tried to be pulled back in he throws his head and completely loses his train of thought of what we are there to do. He doesn’t do this all the time but on them days I can feel a change in him. Now the other question i want to address, yes i contradict by saying he’s lazy but yet he’s hot. If you read my previous reply’s I said when he gets to the gate he knows it’s his time, and gets hot. But any other time he’s lazy. He’s not a unwilling horse as most of you are trying to make it seem. It’s not that he wants it over and done with, he loves running. He’ll run every chance i let him. Barrels are in his bloodlines


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

emick2016 said:


> I said when he gets to the gate he knows it’s his time, and gets hot. But any other time he’s lazy. ... He’ll run every chance i let him


What does he do with the barrels when there is no rider on his back? I know my horse loves running because I can see her play in the pasture...running with her buddies. I also know she likes to run because I never _make_ her run faster than she does as I don't try to beat the clock, so she never has an expectation that "not running fast enough" means "getting more pressure".

What happens when you take your untacked horse into a barrel course and take off his halter? Does he run? Does he run the course? Does he run (jog/trot) the course alongside you if you go ahead of him? That's how I'd distinguish between "The horse has fun running the barrels" and "The horse knows, 'The faster I do this, the faster I'll get release and/or avoid discomfort!'." 

If I go to a job interview, I'm going to tell them that working for them is one of the things I *need* for fulfillment in my life, because absence of a job means pressure in form of an absent paycheck. If you really want to see how much I *want* to work, and what kind of work I want to do, wait until I have saved enough for retirement........


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

At first he just runs in circles out the out skirts of the ring, almost as if i’m lunging him as i do before most of the shows after a lengthy haul to the show. then he’ll jog the pattern and run “home” and just do that a couple times and when he’s done he’ll come to the gate


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

I’m not in for money, im not going to kill my horse for this sport. I don’t care about beating my time each and every time. I let him do as he pleases as far as his speed in a full run, either way i’m happy whether it’s not placing or getting 1st. I don’t push him unless I have a reason. For example if he isn’t giving a true attempt i’ll push him to work a little harder and once he shows that little effort i’m asking i feel that’s a win right there


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

emick2016 said:


> I may have worded it wrong. Yes i’m going to put down the “advice” people give saying it’s pain. It never fails for people to put pain as the first thing. If this was pain, this horse would let me know. He is VERY sensitive, so if he was in the slightest bit of pain or discomfort I’d know as of previous experiences of him enduring pain. He is regularly checked by vet, farrier (who is also a chiropractor), and the dentist. My bit is not harsh what so ever, it’s just a simple bit i use for trails as well. He doesn’t throw his head on trails or anything like that, but there’s certain days on show days where he goes around the first barrel perfectly, like a dream, and coming around to the second barrel he changes completely as if he’s thrown off balance and goes farther away from the barrel and *when tried to be pulled back in he throws his head *and completely loses his train of thought of what we are there to do. He doesn’t do this all the time but on them days I can feel a change in him. Now the other question i want to address, yes i contradict by saying he’s lazy but yet he’s hot. If you read my previous reply’s I said when he gets to the gate he knows it’s his time, and gets hot. But any other time he’s lazy. He’s not a unwilling horse as most of you are trying to make it seem. It’s not that he wants it over and done with, he loves running. He’ll run every chance i let him. Barrels are in his bloodlines


Get his teeth done and a check over by a vet and chiropractor. Everyone suggests pain because more often than not that is why a horse acts out. 

A video would really really help us help you.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

As stated in the first sentence of that big long reply it is nothing pain. So please stop saying get him checked it’s nothing pained, they all have cleared him.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"there’s certain days on show days where he goes around the first barrel perfectly, like a dream, and coming around to the second barrel he changes completely as if he’s thrown off balance and goes farther away from the barrel and when tried to be pulled back in he throws his head and completely loses his train of thought of what we are there to do"

So why do YOU think he does this? You said this is him being lazy?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

emick2016 said:


> As stated in the first sentence of that big long reply it is nothing pain. So please stop saying get him checked it’s nothing pained, they all have cleared him.


If you say so.

Sounds like a training problem and you need to stop running and go back to basics and get him more broke and soft not only in the mouth but through the body as well. 

Might I suggest a trainer?? If you don't want to do that, id suggest browsing the Barrel Racing section of this forum and getting some videos of your runs so we can help you.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mmshiro said:


> from what I have seen about barrel racing, this could be quite uncomfortable to the horse - then you compound the release by getting off him as soon as he is done with his circuit. He's not hot, he's not having fun - he wants whatever you are doing with him done and over with. ...
> That's where your head shaking comes from.


Firstly, I don't think it's fair to assume/say that is always the case with barrel racers(or similar 'sports'). I do think it is sadly too often the case, but I do believe horses can indeed be trained & ridden well and actually enjoy it.

Secondly, I got the idea the head shaking - & general doesn't want to do as asked - was not specific to barrel racing, but that OP has just recently started getting into barrel racing with him.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> What happens when you take your untacked horse into a barrel course and take off his halter? Does he run? Does he run the course? Does he run (jog/trot) the course alongside you if you go ahead of him? That's how I'd distinguish between "The horse has fun running the barrels" and "The horse knows, 'The faster I do this, the faster I'll get release and/or avoid discomfort!'."


My mare scratches her head on the barrels until they fall over and then ignores them and stands at the gate.... I don't think I'd use that as a method to judge if the horse "likes" barrel racing or not.....


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

emick2016 said:


> If this was pain, this horse would let me know. He is VERY sensitive, so if he was in the slightest bit of pain or discomfort I’d know as of previous experiences of him enduring pain.
> 
> there’s certain days on show days where he goes around the first barrel perfectly, like a dream, and coming around to the second barrel he changes completely as if he’s thrown off balance and goes farther away from the barrel and when tried to be pulled back in he throws his head and completely loses his train of thought of what we are there to do. He doesn’t do this all the time but on them days I can feel a change in him.


So why are you convinced that this is not pain?

Without seeing a video of you running barrels on him, I can’t say it is or isn’t pain with certainty, but I do know it’s either a TRAINING problem or a PAIN problem when a horse blows a turn. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t do it all the time, because he still does it. 

Either way, a tie down won’t fix your problem.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> What happens when you take your untacked horse into a barrel course and take off his halter? Does he run? Does he run the course? Does he run (jog/trot) the course alongside you if you go ahead of him? That's how I'd distinguish between "The horse has fun running the barrels" and "The horse knows, 'The faster I do this, the faster I'll get release and/or avoid discomfort!'."
> 
> .....


Sorry but this suggestion is ridiculous. Why would a horse run the barrel pattern if you let them loose in the arena?

My guys would probably either try to munch on grass on the edges, roll in the dirt, or sleep. 

They get daily riding and 24/7 pasture turnout so neither of them are going to feel inclined to voluntarily run around. 

Shotgun is still learning, but Red runs with no spurs, no whip. And he’s always eager to run down the alley. He loves his job. I don’t need him to run the barrels on his own to know that... because he wouldn’t!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Well, as I understood it, we have a horse here that is generally lazy, but gets "hot" (read "agitated") when confronted with a particular situation. 

Hot horses are always hot. I know a horse that can't eat from his grain bucket without making a ruckus - he's a hot horse whether he's in the pasture or with a rider. So I ask myself, what would cause a generally lazy horse to be agitated like that, and how to interpret these signs of agitation? 

When I tack up one of the three horses I get to ride regularly (once or twice a week for the last year and a half), they know they'll get to run their little hearts out here and there, and yet - tacking up is always peaceful, walking off the property is always peaceful, coming back to the barn is peaceful. 

So, based on my personal, limited experience, _this_ horse's agitation is a sign of stress and not of joyful anticipation. Otherwise you could easily make the argument that horses really enjoy their dewormer when, at the sight of the syringe, they get "hot" (read "agitated") and start throwing their heads.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> So, based on my personal, limited experience, _this_ horse's agitation is a sign of stress and not of joyful anticipation


How many barrel racers gave you ridden? I'm guessing about as many as me a big fat zero......some horses like to run, it is what they do...so your limited personal experience adds about as much weight as mine would in this discussion.

We have an OTTB who loves to jump, if the arena is empty he is quiet and peaceful, schools quietly, if he walks in there and there are jumps set he turns into a train..."let me at them" he loves to jump, he likes to go fast, he gets annoyed that people try and slow him down...


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I've seen many more barrel racers used tie-downs than NOT use them. I think it is not necessarily used to keep the hrose from throwing the head, but to give the hrose something to pull against, in effect, to balance off of in the steep turns. At least, that's what I've been told.


That's why all the top cutting horses have tie-downs too -- because they need them to stay balanced. Oh wait.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

Ok this post blew out of proportion and I guess I just shouldn’t ask things like this because everyone has different opinions and beliefs. Thank you all for your help.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

emick2016 said:


> I may have worded it wrong. Yes i’m going to put down the “advice” people give saying it’s pain. It never fails for people to put pain as the first thing. If this was pain, this horse would let me know. ...He is regularly checked by vet, farrier (who is also a chiropractor), and the dentist. My bit is not harsh what so ever,


It is for very good reason people advise ruling out pain from body(or mouth, bit etc) issues. It should never be 'put down' or discounted without very good reason. I believe, from copious experience, that owners/riders who say 'my horse would let me know' are very often simply mistaken & just do not recognise what the horse IS trying to tell them, with their behaviour. **So saying, no one is saying it's a definite problem and it does sound here that you have been diligent in trying to rule out those possibilities. 

I will just add that vets who are not specialised in bodywork are often also not the best for recognising/treating these issues, just like GPs will often refer you to a chiro or physio or such because it's not their area of expertise. And 'horse chiropractics' is not a regulated industry, so your farrier may or may not have comprehensive knowledge/training in that area. For that reason, I suggest at least checking his 'credentials', or using a registered chiropractic vet or other well trained bodyworker if these issues are suspected/need to be ruled out. 

Regardless of how 'not harsh' a bit is(or bitless for that matter), any strong force on the reins does cause discomfort/pain. And as has been mentioned, single jointed snaffles for eg, which are generally though of as 'gentle' bits can cause a lot of pain if the horse throws his head or if force is applied with both reins at the same time.



> certain days on show days where he goes around the first barrel perfectly, like a dream, and coming around to the second barrel he changes completely as if he’s thrown off balance and goes farther away from the barrel and when tried to be pulled back in he throws his head and completely loses his train of thought of what we are there to do. He doesn’t do this all the time but on them days


OK, so is it on every 'show day' he does this? Does he do it when training? If not, do you run the barrels as fast/tight when training? And do you have to pull him around with the reins usually? If it is only when you're actually competing in a 'show', then it's not a matter of balance & I'd say it's probably to do with your excitement/anxiety. 



> I said when he gets to the gate he knows it’s his time, and gets hot. But any other time he’s lazy. He’s not a unwilling horse as most of you are trying to make it seem. It’s not that he wants it over and done with, he loves running. He’ll run every chance i let him. Barrels are in his bloodlines


Remember, we only have your words to go on, so if we are mostly getting the wrong idea, then you need to be clearer about what you mean. You have said that he has always been 'lazy' and resistant about what he doesn't want to do, so that is why we have responded to what you have 'made it seem'. 'Laziness' seems quite incongruous with what you have told us, here and in earlier posts.

Many horses do seem to 'love' running any chance they get, but it is actually due to fear/pain/confusion/frustration. Also just because a particular sport is in a horse's bloodlines doesn't mean that any horse of that breeding will necessarily love/be good at it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mmshiro said:


> So, based on my personal, limited experience, _this_ horse's agitation is a sign of stress and not of joyful anticipation. Otherwise you could easily make the argument that horses really enjoy their dewormer when, at the sight of the syringe, they get "hot" (read "agitated") and start throwing their heads.


Agree with above fully. But I too think it's not a realistic way of evaluating whether a horse likes his 'job' if he does it or not when free. I also am surprised... & just a tiny bit skeptical, to hear OP say he does run the course when loose. Never actually heard of a horse doing that sort of thing before.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

emick2016 said:


> Ok this post blew out of proportion and I guess I just shouldn’t ask things like this because everyone has different opinions and beliefs. Thank you all for your help.


I get that you don't want any more advice, but wonder, as Yogi asked, what is your opinion on why he 'blows out' on turns and also how you think tying his head down will help?


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

I’ve never seen a horse run the set pattern, my guy will run in between the pattern just blowing off steam and at times he’ll turn a barrel and run as if it was the 3rd barrel and runs “home”. Like i said thank you for all your advice, not looking for anymore cause the same things are being repeated and I regret posting this as i should’ve known something like this would’ve got blown out of proportion. for those asking why i think he’s doing this, idk or else i would’ve figured this out in last year or so. No i don’t have a trainer i live in an area where horses are not a common thing and i drive hours away to get to a horse event. I do what I can and am in contact with trainers but they can’t physically see what goes on other than videos and even then videos are hard. Once again, thank you all for your help.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Avna said:


> That's why all the top cutting horses have tie-downs too -- because they need them to stay balanced. Oh wait.


I believe tiny was just stating the theory as to what they are used for. I remember doing a research project on this a long time ago, and learned the same thing: tie downs were invented to give the horse something to brace against during stops and turns. Now why the horse isn't better off balancing on their own, I have no idea, but... I would definitely say that those that I have seen use tie downs, including myself years back when I didn't know better, are using them as a band aid for head shaking/tossing and rearing.

OP, if you really want to learn something about barrel racing, you should listen to @beau159 and look at some of her posts and videos. She has the calmest, most well trained barrel horses I have ever seen. I heard stories of Sherri Cervi's horses being level headed going into the arena, and sane and able to go out and do trail riding and other activities. I don't think emulating the training techniques of most barrel racers I have seen where the horse is practically unmanageable on the way to run the pattern and outside the gate is a smart idea. I would personally emulate those whose horses show good training and a calm, focused mind, and only blow steam on the pattern where they should.

I agree with others that the tie down will not solve your problem, only exacerbate it and lead to other problems. With a tie down, he might not throw his head anymore, but he might start giving you other problems since the outlet of throwing his head is no longer available. You should find out why he throws his head and resolve that, rather than using a band aid. For example, my mare was lazy and allowed to get away with it. She used to buck when asked to trot, out of sheer attitude and laziness. After I taught her to go forward when told, problem resolved. Another time, she wouldn't take one of her canter leads. I figured out it was because she physically couldn't. Called the chiropractor, he adjusted her, and she was able to take both leads again. Two examples. One training. One pain.

And yes, you shouldn't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear that someone thinks differently. You stated that you are new to barrel racing, stated a problem, and asked how to introduce a piece of equipment that the experienced and responsible barrel racers do not think is the answer. When so many people experienced horse people share the same opinion, there might be something to it. Getting the horse checked out, or at least providing a video of your run, would provide the information that would better help posters be able to help you.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

@horseluvr2524 i’m not saying i didn’t want people’s opinions, im saying people are either one disagreeing with things about my own horse that they wouldn’t know or two are saying it’s pain and i know it’s not pain due to all the money i’ve put into him to make sure it’s not pain. I cannot get a video when 1. i don’t record my runs, just never have 2. show season isnt even here 3. i’m not practicing because where i live it’s still snowing and in the teens and the ground is still froze. I’m not new to barrel racing, i realize i made it seem that way by the original thread. I meant to say I was wanting to get more involved, as far as going into higher up events rather than just the open shows and things of that sort. I’ve ridden many barrel horses and ran them, never had this problem. dont know if it’s because of his sensitivity or what.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

emick2016 said:


> should’ve known something like this would’ve got blown out of proportion. for those asking why i think he’s doing this, idk or else i would’ve figured this out in last year or so


What is it that you feel is 'blown out of proportion' & if you have no idea, what makes you blow off anyone's suggestions?

NO ONE was telling you it WAS pain, just suggesting that's one highly likely cause of the behaviour you described. & BTW I responded to your post where you told of having vet & farrier checks before I saw you didn't want to hear any more suggestions about pain, so didn't mean to 'keep on' when you didn't want to hear.



> people are either one disagreeing with things about my own horse that they wouldn’t know


If it's not pain, then it's training - either yours or his. I'm guessing some of both. Regardless of us not knowing your specific horse, I am 100% sure that is the case. We are not at all knocking you for not knowing everything, but I just don't get why, when you say you have no clue why he's doing it, that you're so positive every suggestion is so wrong?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

emick2016 said:


> Ok this post blew out of proportion and I guess I just shouldn’t ask things like this because everyone has different opinions and beliefs. Thank you all for your help.


Actually, virtually everyone has the SAME opinion here. It's just different than yours.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

@loosie By people saying i don’t take in others advice is blowing it out of proportion. I’ve read everything that had been suggested and I’ll take each one into consideration. Yes i may disagree and I’m allowed to express that due to my own beliefs and how everyone was raised to be around horses and past expietiences. I’m not blowing off others opinions, unless it’s something i know either wont work with my own situation or something i don’t believe in. The way you believe in training your horses adds in to, people don’t always agree and that’s fine. I just feel this is going to get blown out of proportion if it keeps going further, so just stoping before it does.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

emick2016 said:


> horseluvr2524 i’m not saying i didn’t want people’s opinions, im saying people are either one disagreeing with things about my own horse that they wouldn’t know or two are saying it’s pain and i know it’s not pain due to all the money i’ve put into him to make sure it’s not pain. I cannot get a video when 1. i don’t record my runs, just never have 2. show season isnt even here 3. i’m not practicing because where i live it’s still snowing and in the teens and the ground is still froze. I’m not new to barrel racing, i realize i made it seem that way by the original thread. I meant to say I was wanting to get more involved, as far as going into higher up events rather than just the open shows and things of that sort. I’ve ridden many barrel horses and ran them, never had this problem. dont know if it’s because of his sensitivity or what.


Then I believe your best bet would be to find a barrel racing trainer you trust to help you with your problem. There is only so much that we can do being on the other side of a computer screen and not in person. Without seeing what's going on, it's impossible to make a recommendation, aside from 'get a trainer'. So, there is my recommendation: get a trainer. You will need one anyway if you want to move up the levels in barrel racing, or any type of showing. Not just for their knowledge, but eyes on the ground are enormously helpful.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

@horseluvr2524 trainers are not available where i live. horses are not common what so ever and the closest “horse community” is a few hours away.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

emick2016 said:


> @horseluvr2524 trainers are not available where i live. horses are not common what so ever and the closest “horse community” is a few hours away.


But you can somehow find barrel races to go to? If you want something badly enough you will make it happen. Again, your best bet is getting a trainer. People here cannot help you with what little information you are able to provide.


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## emick2016 (Mar 13, 2018)

@horseluvr2524 finding barrel races are totally different than finding a trainer. I live in the middle of no where. the select few that have horses have taught themselves. Between school and my job and having 2 horses It’s not like i can haul my horses 4 hours one way to train for an hour or two. as much as i wish i could it just isn’t possible.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What part of PA? That state is pretty horsey.

You have a training problem. Whether that training problem was caused by past owner(s) or you, we here in the internet cannot say. But as his current steward, voice, or guardian....which ever word you prefer.....it is your responsibility to fix it, come hell or high water, and it doesn’t matter that you do not live in a “horse community”. You bought him, now it is time to step up and do right by this horse.

And even if you don’t live in a horse community, if you want to move up from play days, you will need a coach. Most of us on here have a coach or coaches to help us help our horse(s) and to improve ourselves so we can move on from neighborhood shows.

Have you tried the simple solution of trying diffferent bits? Some horses just hate, and fight/fidget with some bits. How about saddle fit? You state he looses it after a turn. Could it be the saddle is pinching his shoulders? Withers? Slamming the devil out of his back?

You have another horse that is mouthy? Two horses with issues, with one common denominator..........


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

emick2016 said:


> @loosie By people saying i don’t take in others advice is blowing it out of proportion. I’ve read everything that had been suggested and I’ll take each one into consideration.


Oh OK, great, glad you're considering it all. That's just not the way it sounded. I haven't seen where people have said you're not taking advice, just people asking how you're so sure it wasn't pain for eg. Not sure anyone's actually suggested anything specific here, as you haven't given many details. Most of what I've seen is people asking questions for more specifics. So I don't understand your attitude, but pretty sure you wouldn't be saying 'it's a training problem' that 'won't work' or you don't believe in?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Well, as I understood it, we have a horse here that is generally lazy, but gets "hot" (read "agitated") when confronted with a particular situation.
> 
> Hot horses are always hot.
> 
> So, based on my personal, limited experience, _this_ horse's agitation is a sign of stress and not of joyful anticipation


I agree that OPs horse should not be shaking its head but I just wanted to comment on your post. 

There are plenty of laid back horses out there that are only hot when it’s time to run barrels. They get “on the muscle” when they know it’s their turn. My old horse Beau was a perfect example of this. He’d walk around like a western pleasure horse, cool as a cucumber, UNTIL I gave him the cue we were about to run (whisper to him). Then he was ready to go and ready to get in that arena. 

So again, OP’s horse shouldn’t be tossing his head or blowing turns, but it is entirely possibly for a quiet horse to get excited when the time comes.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

emick2016 said:


> i know it’s not pain due to all the money i’ve put into him to make sure it’s not pain. .


So do explain. What exact testing has your horse had?
Flexions?
Nerve blocking?
X-rays?
Ultrasound?
Etc??

(And by the way, horses with lameness problems don’t care how much money you’ve spent at the vet. And sometimes you may need 2nd or 3rd opinions to find the problem. )


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

emick2016 said:


> @*horseluvr2524* i know it’s not pain due to all the money i’ve put into him to make sure it’s not pain.


This kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, and my dad would squeeze my collarbone. I'd tell him "Ow, it hurts!" and he'd say "Nahhh, it doesn't hurt, don't be silly!" I'm not saying it's a pain reaction. Sounds like more of a stress reaction to me, but I AM saying that spending a pile money does not guarantee there is no pain. 

I agree, the only way to really help you would be to see videos of a ride.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

The thread is closed.


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