# Is "soring" used on Saddlebreds?



## CANKLES

Please pardon my ignorance on this subject  , but I've read that Tennessee Walking Horses are _sometimes_ "sored" :shock: .

Is this practice used sometimes with Saddlebreds too?

The Kentucky State Fair is having it's large Saddlebred show this evening, and I'm wondering now how the riders get their horses to gait the way that Saddlebreds do. 

I thought that Saddlebreds were born with the tendency for these "extra" gaits, and that the rider just helps the horse develop them through training and advanced equitation skills.

Saddlebreds are a much loved breed here in Kentucky, and it's difficult to believe that these horses would be treated unkindly. Statues devoted to the beauty of the breed abound! 

I've noticed that the front hooves of some show Saddlebreds seem longer than usual, and that the horses are sometimes placed into some kind of "harness" (for lack of a better word) when they are in their stalls. I'm not sure of the purpose of this harness, other than their tails seem to be lifted up and placed into what appears to be a bag of some sort. 

To me, the extra "show gaits" of the Saddlebred seem more natural somehow that do the gaits of the TWH. But as I say, I know VERY little about this subject (kind of obvious, huh?  )

Just curious  so I thought I'd ask you experts out there.

Here is the ad for the horse show:

*"World's Championship Horse Show*
*August 23-29, 2009*

*This prestigious event attracts over 2,000 horses and people from all over the country and the world, awarding more than $1 million in premiums. World champion saddlebreds are crowned in different divisions during this show, which is held annually in conjunction with the Kentucky State Fair. Competition categories include saddlebreds, roadsters, road ponies, hackney ponies, and saddle seat equitation."*


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## Sunny06

Found article:

_Unless one of these show horses has naturally perfect gait "high stepping" then measures need to be taken to enhance the step. One of the most successful methods is to change the angle of the feet either higher or lower in the heels so sometimes the limits of what a horse can endure regarding angles is stretched. Lowering the heel for example causes the foot to "Pop" off the ground at break over which raises the foot higher into the air, and the weights of lead on the foot will travel more due to extra weight momentum.

Whether these types of shoeing are damaging to the horse or not is obviously a controversial subject - some people scream at the sight of these horses being shod this way. Animal rights activists i'm sure start to go through the roof in alarm. anyway. _

Mainly they just use heavy weights and hoof shifts. And of course the long shanks and such (yes, TWHs aren't the only ones).


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## Spastic_Dove

And the harness you are seeing is used for tail setting.


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## Sunny06

^ Yep. Ginger is used as well to sting and make the tail get carried higher. And perhaps nicked and cut as well.


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## CANKLES

Sunny06 said:


> ^ Yep. Ginger is used as well to sting and make the tail get carried higher. And perhaps nicked and cut as well.


Ginger? You mean that the ginger is placed...er...um...on a "delicate" area of the horse's behind?  :shock:


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

I hate to see methods like this used. My grandparents used to raise saddle breds, and kept one after they sold all the others. This mare never wore shoes or anything but a halter twice a year for worming, and she picked her feet WAY up with a high neck and tail set. She had a gorgeous natural trot!


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## Sunny06

CANKLES said:


> Ginger? You mean that the ginger is placed...er...um...on a "delicate" area of the horse's behind?  :shock:


You got it


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## ponyboy

I think I heard someone say that saddlebreds can't be sored because they are shown at the trot. If they were sored they would appear lame at the trot. (Which tells you how much soring hurts.)


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## PoohLP

Saddlebreds do rack naturally, but the high stepping is separate from the rack. The horses are naturally high stepping, but several methods are used to make the horses step higher, unfortunately including soring. 

My mom rode saddlebreds and knew of several trainers whom it was generally known that they sored their horses or put glass in their shoes. This was in the 60s/70s. It was and is, of course, illegal. At the shows, if someone is suspected, the judges can require them to drop their shoes before or after a class. At some of the big shows, I think they do random checks.


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## Sunny06

Goes to show that TWHs aren't the only ones.


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## QHChik

Sunny06 said:


> Goes to show that TWHs aren't the only ones.


anywhere there is that much money involved there will be people who do things unethically and inhumanely in order to win. Unfortunately, that's just a fact of life.


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## Sunny06

^ Not the point, but you are right. People are idiots.


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## LadyDreamer

Wow, I am sorry I did not see this sooner. I am a Saddlebred Show Horse person. Saddlebreds are my life, and promotion and education of my one and only favorite breed are my favorite subjects. 

No, Saddlebreds are not sored. Saddlebreds are a trotting breed and by the mechanics of the gait, having sore feet would have the opposite effect on the horse's motion. Most Saddlebreds I have been around(and I have been around A LOT of Saddlebreds. There are currently 30 in my barn.) do not have a high tolerance for pain. 

The harnesses you saw the horses wearing are called tail sets. Mainly their job is to keep the tail loose so that it is easier to put in a brace for the show ring. Many horses only wear these a week or so before the show and throughout the off season, they are taken off. They help keep the tail straight. They are fit very loosely. I was taught to fit for the horse laying down. They are like a bra. They are fit specifically to the horse and made to be as comfortable as possible.

Here is a horse we sold wearing his 'set.









Here is that horse's show package. Light plate, with a small leather pad for shock absorption.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MokeyBird/Horse/General/Shane3-1.jpg

And him at his first show. Recognize the arena?
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MokeyBird/Horse/PIC-0151.jpg

The use of ginger is not to sting or hurt the horse to get him to lift his tail higher, it causes a warming slight discomfort that makes him lift his tail higher. This is especially useful for a horse who wants to fight his tail brace. It just takes the worry out of that. When a horse starts fighting his brace, it can cause major problems. 

There are two main ways to "set" the horse's tail which is done before the horse ever gets to the show ring, and only to those who show promise in the saddleseat ring. The first method is the long process of hand stretching the tendons. The horse is put in a bustle(really big, padded crupper) and the tail is slowly stretched until it can remain comfortably in a high tail crupper. The other is a surgical procedure performed by a vet. The vet nicks the tendons and then the horse is put in a tail set to heal. The choice of an experience, reccommended vet, and the aftercare of the tail is the most important part if you are to chose this method.

It all depends on your horse which method you use. Of my two yearlings, one filly is really clampy with her tail and will need her tail cut, and the other colt is very free and quick to put his tail up over his back. His could very easily be set without cutting. I would be more than happy to post some pictures for a game of "Tail cut or not" for you. My lower quality Saddlebred colt's bloodlines promote really loose tails. 


Bits differ per horse. Go into ANY Saddlebred trainer's barn and you will likely see MANY curb bits, but nothing overly severe. If you would have been on the rail, you will have seen a lot of VERY loose curb reins. I have had horses rear straight up and seen others go over backwards because of too much curb. The curb is only there to collect the horse and set his head and is hardly used much at all. Most of the control is coming from the snaffle. 

There are many ways to encourage the high stepping motion of the American Saddlebred, and each horse and each division calls for different methods. No horse will ever step higher than he is capable of doing. The TWHs are given the semblance of doing so by being put on platforms. With Saddlebreds, it is MUCH easier to breed for that motion. 

Here is a weanling just a week or two off the mare.









The use of chains, stretchies, and weight are not soring. Soring is the intentional causing of pain to the horse to enhance performance. The chains are there to have the horse try and step out of them. Leather bands are also used for this, but the _*****_ sound also helps the horse develop his timing and rhythm. The stretchies help shorten the horse's stride, and strengthen the shoulders. The application of weights will cause the horse to pull against it, thus lifting his feet higher. The placement of weight(to the front, back, sides, etc) can help change the direction of the horse's movement.

I was ringside at the World Championships every session. I did not miss a single class. If you are still in the area, I would love to set you up with a tour of a barn or two or twelve so that you may experience and learn about this breed that you admittedly do not know much about. My barn, nearer to Lexington is always open to visitors. I would be more than happy to take you around to some of the barns, or you may show up to my farm anytime and watch my family work. 

If you would like more information on the American Saddlebred, please ask. If I don't know the answer, I can direct you to someone who can, or bring someone here who can.


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## luvmytwh

*Saddlebreds*

I have to agree with everyone except ladydreamer. Any time the conformation of a horse is altered by even the slightest degree; an incision is made under the tail, no matter how small the cut; or a foreign substance, whether foodstuff or chemical, is applied to any part of the horse's body to alter its gait or affect the appearance of its tail, it is SORING. Not only is it unnatural, it is cruel, inhumane, and physically and emotionally painful for the horse. If someone were to put ginger on your sensitive body parts, it would burn like mad. If someone were to slice into your arm to make you hold it up, it would be painful. If someone were to force you to wear a high heel on one foot and go barefoot on the other, eventually your body would break down from the physical stress on the rest of your body. If your parents or your husband did to your body what you are doing to your horse's body, simply to show how pretty you were and how animated you could act, or to win a few dollars, you would be in severe physical and emotional pain for the rest of your life. By owning a horse, you take on the responsibility of caring for it, keeping it healthy, safe, and secure. Horses cannot speak for themselves, so we must. They're counting on us to protect them from harm, and that includes you.
Ladydreamer, take the first step in providing the quality of life your horses deserve.


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## Sunny06

Not always. Some people still _illegally_ sore Saddlebreds.

It's true.


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## LadyDreamer

First of all I would like to say *welcome to the Horse Forum*, since this is your first post. This forum is a great resource for horse owners to learn, share and make friends. Please introduce yourself and share to your hearts content. 

I do find it suspicious that this would be your first and only post, and on a thread that was at least five pages back in the Shows Section. Please do not tell me that this was the only reason you joined. Unless you are a mule for another member who didn't want her screen name marred in this discussion. I sincerely hope not.

Anyway, to business....



luvmytwh said:


> I have to agree with everyone except ladydreamer. Any time the conformation of a horse is altered by even the slightest degree; an incision is made under the tail, no matter how small the cut; or a foreign substance, whether foodstuff or chemical, is applied to any part of the horse's body to alter its gait or affect the appearance of its tail, it is SORING. Not only is it unnatural, it is cruel, inhumane, and physically and emotionally painful for the horse.


Soring, by definition is causing pain to legs and feet of the horse to enhance performance. Setting a horse's tail is done for cosmetic purposes and have no bearing on the performance, ergo does not constitute as Soring. 

It is similar(and vastly different) to the issue of cropping a Doberman's ears. I have had several Dobies and they have all had their ears done. It is a much more painful procedure than what is done to our horses, and for the same goal. Cosmetic. If done wrong, or cared for improperly, the dogs ears are then irreparably damaged and he does not look as good as he could. 

With our horses, it is but a very small alteration, that is allowed to fully heal. It is painstakingly cared for during this healing time, because we have just spent a fairly large amount to have it done, and don't want our investment to be ruined. Our horses are treated like gold in this period, because an unhappy or uncomfortable horse is more likely to ruin his tail during this fragile period. The tail is fully healed, and the horse does not lose any function of his tail. If you don't believe me, I invite you to stand at my horses flank during the summer when the flies are biting. 



luvmytwh said:


> If someone were to slice into your arm to make you hold it up, it would be painful.


Yeah it would, but we don't do that to horse's legs(THAT would constitute as soring). And when we do have the procedure done, the horses' tails are nestled and packed in cotton and the incision is treated every day, if not multiple times a day to keep the horse comfortable while it heals.



luvmytwh said:


> If someone were to force you to wear a high heel on one foot and go barefoot on the other, eventually your body would break down from the physical stress on the rest of your body.


Where is it stated that the horses are shod in comparison to this? What you are implying is that horses are shod uneven, causing one foot to be higher than the other. While I have seen this in a horse that came to us to be "fixed", it doesn't even make sense what you are saying here. 



luvmytwh said:


> If your parents or your husband did to your body what you are doing to your horse's body, simply to show how pretty you were and how animated you could act, or to win a few dollars, you would be in severe physical and emotional pain for the rest of your life.


Jeeze, my first horse had his tail cut. He was a five gaited show horse. Right now he is 27 and chilling out in the field enjoying retirement. He never runs from me when I go to him. His eyes have always been bright and cheerful. Ears always up. He has full use of his tail even. My poor gelding. 



luvmytwh said:


> By owning a horse, you take on the responsibility of caring for it, keeping it healthy, safe, and secure. Horses cannot speak for themselves, so we must. They're counting on us to protect them from harm, and that includes you.


Very true. And if I want a simple procedure that causes less stress and pain, and takes less time to heal than your average gelding procedure, to alter my horse's appearance in the slightest bit, then it is my position to do so. Just as if I wanted to buy a Doberman pup, and have his ears cropped. 



luvmytwh said:


> Ladydreamer, take the first step in providing the quality of life your horses deserve.


Sweetie, as a new member, how is it that you cam make a claim that my horses are not receiving the care that they deserve. If you must know my horses are given the very basic necesities and more. From what I have seen, they get way more than a lot of horses these days. I have friends with more money than we do whose horses get even more than ours. 

They are fed quality food, multiple times a day. 
They never go without water. 
They are given adequate shelter.
They get top vet care whenever they need it.
They are vaccinated and wormed regularly.
They are all on strict farrier schedules(all 30 of them) to maintain structural stability, soundness and comfort.
They are allowed contact and interaction with other horses.
They are given regular turn out and exercise.
They are checked and taken care of by a highly qualified and reccommended equine dentist.
They are not worked or ridden into the ground.
They are nearly spoiled with peppermints and apple treats.
They are given extra grooming time and scratches when an itchy spot is discovered. 
They are observed and examined every day individually so that problems that may occur can be caught early.

Our horses' physical and mental well-being is paramount.

We do more for our horses than many people we know. Those "first steps" were taken over 40 years ago when my father first got into horses. I thank you for your encouragement, but honey, we were already there. 



Sunny06 said:


> Not always. Some people still illegally sore Saddlebreds.
> 
> It's true.


Sorry, Sunny, it is not true. As I have said multiple times, it is not a problem with the breed, even illegally. It is not possible to sore a Saddlebred. For reasons posted multiple times. And by all means, if you know who has done it and what horse(s) have had this done to them, I would REALLY like to know. Please. I know more than a handful of people in this biz. I know more than a handful of people that show at the top shows. I have been in more than a handful of training facilities. I have seen more top Saddlebreds work than I can count. I have never seen one sored Saddlebred. 

PLEASE enlighten me on who these Saddlebreds are and who is doing it to them. Where can I find them? 

I would LOVE to expose them to the Saddlebred community and have them shunned and/or persecuted. I just have to know who they are before I can do that.


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## CloudsMystique

"TWHs are sored and have high leg action, and Saddlebreds have high leg action, so they MUST be sored too!"

Tell me, people who are insisting that Saddlebreds are sored - Have you ever actually SEEN a sore Saddlebred with your own eyes? Have you even seen a picture of one? Or are you just assuming that they're sored because of their similarities to Walkers? Show me ONE case... ONE picture or news article about a Saddlebred trainer getting busted for soring. You guys really seem to believe what you're saying about Saddlebreds, but you're giving no evidence whatsoever to back up your argument.


Saddlebreds ARE NOT SORED. You cannot sore a trotting horse. End of story.


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## luvmytwh

I apologize for the misuse of the word "soring". You are correct, that is a term used to describe various methods used to artifically enhance gait in the TWH performance horse industry.

The words I should have used to describe any method, however slight, to enhance gait, alter conformation, or change the appearance of a tail on ANY horse is "inflict pain".

For the record, I also believe in a natural appearance for dogs, as well, including ears and tails.

Let's end this by agreeing to disagree, okay? We are all entitled to our opinion. Truce?


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## mpbmorganev

LadyDreamer, I too grew up around Saddlebreds and agree with everything you said.

Everyone who thinks ASBS are abused, treated inhumanely, they really aren't. Many of these horses have been brought up a certain way, often not turned out so they don't ruin their long feet, are tail-setted. BUT! This is the life they know. They know no other, therefore it is not right to say it is inhumane and unnatural. That is what is natural to them.

Here's a story. There was a 15 year old ASB at our barn. He had been a show horse all his life. He was sold to a lady who didn't show him as extensively as he used to be shown, so he started getting turned out. This horse was MORTIFIED! He stood in the middle of the paddock, ears pinned back, not knowing what to do. He was bothered by the bugs and would stand shaking his head, swishing his tail, and kicking. Now, do you want to do that to the show saddlebreds? Turn them out so they can be "real horses"? Because they hate it. So isn't that cruel, inhumane? 

Sorry for the rant. It just makes me very angry when people think they know everything about a breed of horse that they have never laid a finger on.


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## Sunny06

> Sorry, Sunny, it is not true.


Ah, just because you haven't seen them dosen't mean they are not out there 

I find it hard to believe myself, that one would sore a trotting horse, _however_, they _can_ be taught to gait, so illegals may sore the horse in hoping they will act like a Walker.

Sounds plausible. Perhaps a newbie to Saddlebreds who is used to TWHs would do that. 

I'm not going to argue with you anyhow  Will get you nowhere. I've owned 'gaiteds' all my horse life. I know a thing or two  Maybe not as much about Saddlebreds, but I get around.


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## LadyDreamer

Ah, but there is where your logic fails you, Sunny. Yes our horses are taught to rack, which is a four beat gait similar to that of the running walk. However, there is NO Saddlebred discipline that does not require them to Trot. You cannot sore a horse for one gait without affecting the other. I am sure you could sore a Saddlebred in the rack, but then you would lose all motion in the trot, or have a horse that refuses to trot all together. 
If Five Gaited Saddlebreds were not required to trot, then your logic would have a little bearing.
It is true that I have never seen one. I go to many shows. I live in the Saddlebred Show Capital of the World. I go to many barns. I see many horses. I know many trainers. I am on a first name basis with many of the higer ups of the ASHA. I am far from a sheltered Saddlebred owner. I am not from the Saddlebred world from Fifty Years ago. I am currently in the Saddlebred Show Horse World. Saddlebreds are basically _all_ I care about. 

As soon as you find a name of who actually does do it, let me know, and I will gladly send the names on to the right people, and keep you updated on what comes of it.


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## LadyDreamer

luvmytwh said:


> I apologize for the misuse of the word "soring". You are correct, that is a term used to describe various methods used to artifically enhance gait in the TWH performance horse industry.
> 
> The words I should have used to describe any method, however slight, to enhance gait, alter conformation, or change the appearance of a tail on ANY horse is "inflict pain".
> 
> For the record, I also believe in a natural appearance for dogs, as well, including ears and tails.
> 
> Let's end this by agreeing to disagree, okay? We are all entitled to our opinion. Truce?


If it makes you feel better, the issue regarding tails is a highly debated topic among those who ride and show Saddlebreds. There are people in the industry right now who strongly disagree with the practice. There are many people pushing for the industry to move away from it. They are encouraging shows to start adding "natural mane and tail classes" along with other similar classes, and many shows have adopted these classes into their show bills. 

The "Natural Mane and Tail" classes are growing in popularity, and number. I forget how many horses showed in that class at the World Championships this year, but it was a fairly large number. 

You are by no means "wrong" because you do not agree with the practice of cutting and setting tails.


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## Jessabel

I've never personally seen or heard of a Saddlebred being sored, but I'm sure there are a few morons out there who have done it.


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## District 5

I am new to this forum, and mainly because I accidentally came upon this topic in Google. I have been riding Saddlebreds for 10 years.

It is not possible to sore a Saddlebred for any riding or show purpose. Saddlebreds have a low tolerance of pain, and they would more than immediately turn up lame. My five-gaited Saddlebred, who has been flat shod in the front and barefoot in the back for a few years now, recently lost one of his shoes. He refused to trot until we had the shoe put back on, simply because he was a tad bit sore. I cannot imagine what he would do if we purposefully inflicted harm on his feet and legs. A lame horse cannot show, they would be severely frowned upon, and they can even be excused by the judge. A trotting horse can simply not be sored.

It is easy for a Tennessee Walker to be sored because they do not trot. They nod their head with each step and each gait they do. It is difficult to catch a lame Walking Horse.

There may be idiots who have tried it, but they would definitely not be a trainer. Any Saddlebred trainer would know what it would do to a horse, and who would want to risk that with their Saddlebred? Especially knowing that the consequence of permanent laming is always possible.

As for the turning outside issue, I completely agree. Saddlebreds are brought up in a stall, and that is all they know, and it is natural to them. We had some friends who put their three gaited mare on a break, pulled her shoes, and put her outside. I have never seen a horse so terrified. She stood exactly where they left her, trembling and eyes huge. She lost all of her elegance and simply just wanted to 'come back inside, please please _please_'.

As for cutting the tail, I have seen some bad tails in my day. But I have also seen many good tails. There is always a risk, as with there is with any surgery. But since Saddlebreds are so un-tolerant with any discomfort, they typically have 24 hour treatment to keep them comfortable while the tail heals. An uncomfortable Saddlebred will turn around and destroy his tail; why would we pay money for that?

I love how people criticize our tails, and then crop their dogs' ears, dock their dogs' tails, and have all kinds of other surgeries on their pets. Those procedures are much more painful.


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## corinowalk

I rode and showed Saddlebreds for a few years in the late 90's. I was always a bit put off by the tail sets and chains. 

Everyone has said it, but ill say it again. Saddlebreds can not be sored in a 'traditional' way because of the trot. The barn I was at used weights and quite a lot of them. Again, this was over 10 years ago, im sure things have changed.

As far as the ginger goes, I have a story for that. We were all going to a show and we had a particularly nasty mare who would not stand for a tail set. The trainer at this barn, a very respected man in the saddlebred community, said that her owner shouldn't worry, he was going to ginger her. Since all the horses I rode always used a tail set, I never heard of the ginger and honestly, didn't think much of it. When the class came up that the horse was to be in, Jim grabbed the ginger and went to it. She kicked him directly in the head. So hard that he had a hoofprint on his forehead until the day he died. He did survive his injuries but I never rode for him again.


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## brilarcrest

Hum, I am not familiar with gingering. Doesn't sound like something I would use.
I was involved with saddlebreds in the early 90's and early 2000's. I have never witnessed anything more than tailsets and onetime weights held together with a chain to shorten and strengthen a stride. I used to groom for a well known trainer here in Missouri, he has passed away. He would always tell me stories, like about how trainers tied down tongues so they wouldn't mes with the bits, but he would not because he needed to know if his horse was ready to go! Also, after witnessing a horrific training approach at a show, a coworker whispered to him, "if this is training, I don't want to be a trainer." He replied, "Neither do I." He was the type of trainer you'd like for your horse. Sometimes horses came back terrified, the owner sent them to another trainer who beat them. There was always mumbling about how they have to re-train this frightened horse. Sadly, that is not seen only with saddlebreds, but any horses, and dogs too. I know which trainers to recommend in my community, and which I never mention!

I was iffy about tail sets. Just not a fan. Many only wore them during season, and one in particular wore it only before show, at a lower setting because of her sensitive skin.

Even though show horses were not turned out, they were raised for the first three years with young-uns in a paddock. Not a true grassy pasture, but outside with horses. So, I deal feel for them a bit, but remembered that they got to travel to shows and got out then. When they retired, they would get out in the pasture again. 


Horses that are terrified of the pasture life are so because they were deprived of it. This sounds bad for saddlebred fanciers. It is like a puppymill breeder introduced outside of its cage for the first time being terrified of grass. People frown on this condition, a dog shouldn't be scared of grass, romping and playing! It looks bad for the reputation (note: I am not saying the saddlebred world is like that of a puppymill! It is nowhere near that!) as it seems these animals were deprived of something they naturally should find fun.


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## Allison Finch

I'm going to stay out of the details of the discussion. I love horses and I enjoy bringing them what joy I can. I just wish all people could find an appreciation in their hearts for the natural beauty of the horse without any artificial "cosmetic" enhancements.

The TWH and saddlebreds I have been around have wonderful minds. Their natural talents are what should be lauded. I am glad there is discussion on examining whether the cosmetic work with tails is something the breed wants to continue. People providing MONEY classes for the natural horses will quickly bring a turn around too, I suspect.


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## Saddlebredsarelife

*Hooves of saddlebreds*



CANKLES said:


> Please pardon my ignorance on this subject  , but I've read that Tennessee Walking Horses are _sometimes_ "sored" :shock: .
> 
> Is this practice used sometimes with Saddlebreds too?
> 
> The Kentucky State Fair is having it's large Saddlebred show this evening, and I'm wondering now how the riders get their horses to gait the way that Saddlebreds do.
> 
> I thought that Saddlebreds were born with the tendency for these "extra" gaits, and that the rider just helps the horse develop them through training and advanced equitation skills.
> 
> Saddlebreds are a much loved breed here in Kentucky, and it's difficult to believe that these horses would be treated unkindly. Statues devoted to the beauty of the breed abound!
> 
> I've noticed that the front hooves of some show Saddlebreds seem longer than usual, and that the horses are sometimes placed into some kind of "harness" (for lack of a better word) when they are in their stalls. I'm not sure of the purpose of this harness, other than their tails seem to be lifted up and placed into what appears to be a bag of some sort.
> 
> To me, the extra "show gaits" of the Saddlebred seem more natural somehow that do the gaits of the TWH. But as I say, I know VERY little about this subject (kind of obvious, huh?  )
> 
> Just curious  so I thought I'd ask you experts out there.
> 
> Here is the ad for the horse show:
> 
> *"World's Championship Horse Show*
> *August 23-29, 2009*
> 
> *This prestigious event attracts over 2,000 horses and people from all over the country and the world, awarding more than $1 million in premiums. World champion saddlebreds are crowned in different divisions during this show, which is held annually in conjunction with the Kentucky State Fair. Competition categories include saddlebreds, roadsters, road ponies, hackney ponies, and saddle seat equitation."*


 ok so im new to this website but its because i was just bored at home and i ride saddlebreds so i wanted to know if people though we sore our horses and the answer is ABSOLUTLY NOT. the saddlebreds hooves are longer than other horses because having longer hooves is more comfy then having short hooves and low heals. the longer hooves also make the natrual trotting gait even more beautiful. we simply put tail sets on to make their tails stick up. the shoes we use are only a rubber pad. if we sored them they would do the oppsit of stepping higher they would stop trotting in fact. 

i am one of those people who hate horse abuse and i LOVE horses period. And i love working with saddlebreds and showing them


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## Saddlebredsarelife

*Racking is not natrual to saddlebreds*



PoohLP said:


> Saddlebreds do rack naturally, but the high stepping is separate from the rack. The horses are naturally high stepping, but several methods are used to make the horses step higher, unfortunately including soring.
> 
> My mom rode saddlebreds and knew of several trainers whom it was generally known that they sored their horses or put glass in their shoes. This was in the 60s/70s. It was and is, of course, illegal. At the shows, if someone is suspected, the judges can require them to drop their shoes before or after a class. At some of the big shows, I think they do random checks.


this is TOTALLY wrong! if a saddlebred is sores or lame they show it clearly to you! when they trot they limp when they are in pain and you can really tell. NO ONE EVER puts glass in their hooves. the only ways they make the horses step higher is using shoes or putting light HARMLESS chains around their ankles in the stall. And i've picked up the chains we use and they are VERY light. we make sure all of our horses hooves are in best condition also. 

SADDLEBREDS DO NOT NATRUALY RACK!!!!!! they are taught through training. the high stepping comes natrual to some saddlebreds. not all saddlebreds come from world champion saddlbreds which makes them able to NOT get the nack for high stepping. 

know what your talking about :evil:


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## cb06

I know this thread is old, but yeah, for anyone reading it now...the misinformation on here is ASTOUNDING! :shock: Wow! Where did some of these people come up with this...totally and absolutely false and made-up stuff.....Again :shock:!

Saddlebreds trot, even in a 5-gaited class, the gaits are walk, TROT, slow-gait, rack and canter. Saddlebreds have not now/nor have ever been sored. They must be comfortable and sound to perform and would be flat lame at the trot if they are uncomfortable (just like any other non-gaited horse), and that is the bottom line. 
PLUS Saddlebreds are shown under the USEF, just like stock horses, hunters, dressage and eventers. Gingering I believe is now illegal? and tails are not 'broken', tail setting is a 'tradition' who's time has passed, but ultimately has minimal or no effect on the horses ability to use its tail.

Soring is solely in the realm of non-trotting breeds, most notably Tennessee Walking Horses, a breed NOT governed under USEF. 

Some Saddlebreds can rack naturally, but it is not desirable in the larger show world circles because it is harder to get them to have a true trot and separate their gaits. Please, please be informed. There is a lot of utter BS floating around in the horse world about all kinds of topics, and this topic seems to be a pervasive myth that will not die.:?


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## jimmyp

Its funny to me that the Saddlebred people sound EXACTLY like TWH people, when called on questionable training methods......

Oddly enough if a TWH trainer used ginger he would likely find himself in jail for SORING. 

Tail sets, action devices, tailsets, ginger, long hooves, and "show packages" are all artificial training aids and are ALL among the things that the average TWH trainer is under fire for..... Soring? maybe not. Questionable? Yeah I'd say so.

Jim


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## cb06

No Jimmy, Not questionable training methods. 
Maybe not something you understand, or like, but it is apples and oranges, it is NOT similar to what is done with TWH. 

I have been in Saddlebred training barns of all shapes and sizes for the past 20+ years....AND I've been to a hundred open shows, big and small, in the 80's/90's with both TWH and Saddlebreds and I have seen 'with my own eyes!' what happens behind the 'scene'...It is NOT the same. Absolutely not. 

Unequivocally, the action training of Saddlebreds is NOT obtained through pain of any kind. A trotting horse that is sore or uncomfortable will be lame and sour (just like any lame horse), the EXACT opposite of what Saddlbreds want to show in the ring. For TWH, shown at a running walk (i.e., not-trotting), the action CAN be obtained through pain because it is not detectable in the show ring and actually accentuates the 'gait'. This is not a difficult concept if you have seen how it works on both ends and in person, which I have.

Saddlebreds use LIGHT chains for training only (not allowed in the show ring). The LIGHT chains are attached loosely to enhance action through a fun concept called 'proprioceptive tactile stimulation'. Enhance your knowledge of this concept here: Online Archive of the journal VCOT

Saddlebred training may also include the use of stretchies (these fun devices: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Training Shackles (Stretchies) Complete Set), which work exactly the same as the resistance band we use at the gym. They are not used for long periods and they break if stepped on. (note the fleecy stuff to prevent rubbing).

These methods both help develop muscle memory and tone to improve action. Not all horses respond to them and they are used to enhance action on an already talented horse...they can have no effect on a horse with little talent or desire to use them (trust me, have seen this also).

Gingering is now ILLEGAL and ASB shows are governed under the USEF (again, not so with TWHs).
Tail setting is a 'tradition' that has past its prime but again, ultimately it has minimal to no effect on the horses' ability to use its tail. I don't particular care for it because when in a set during the show season the horse has to be stalled. However, in the off season they are often turned out and the actual initial 'nicking' procedure is very minor. However, ASBs can now be shown in any class without a set tail, so I do hope tail setting will fade away. 

Again, the misinformation, misunderstanding, and the sheer tenacity with which these myths and comparisons persist is discouraging. Please, I encourage you all, to inform yourselves.
This has been your PSA for today.


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## 4horses

I worked at a Saddlebred barn. There is still abuse in this industry! Just because some barns are "nicer" to their horses doesn't mean abuse doesn't occur!

The barn I worked at kept their horses stalled 24/7. All the horses had ulcers and would colic constantly. :shock: One horse died from an impaction colic.

I quit after that. I was by myself and had to hold him for the vet, when the horse was going into shock and running us over, and bumping into the walls, flailing around. That is not something I ever want to repeat! It took an hour to walk through the barn to the round pen so we could put him down. He couldn't walk without circling and falling into things. :-(

I will never forget the look in that horse's eyes. His eyes had actually turned pure red. The vet said it was the worst case of colic he had ever seen in his entire practice, as the horse was actually refluxing stomach fluids out its nose and its stomach had "probably burst" or was about to. :-x

I'm sure the reason that horse died, was because of the conditions he was living in. It was entirely preventable! The lady who owned him certainly didn't care very much for her horse... As there was no way I would have kept my horse in those conditions! Not for an instant! He wasn't even being shown. All he did was sit in a stall, unless I took him out to lunge him. His "owner" would visit every 6 months or so. :-x

She even worked there before me- she knew how often those horses colic! There is no excuse for that level of neglect/ignorance! 

They gingered their horses before entering the show ring. It may be illegal, but only if you are caught! I once made the mistake of trying ginger capsules for nausea- it burned my stomach like crazy! So there is no way gingering doesn't hurt. 

The horses spent a lot of time in tail sets. Not just the week before the show. 

Thanks to the shoes with pads, the horses had very contracted heels. Their feet made my navicular mare's feet look great. 

Every single horse in that barn showed stereotypical behavior. Some cribbed, some weaved, some kicked the stalls, one would point his nose at the ceiling of the barn (I've never seen a horse put his nose that high up in the air, unless evading a kick). One horse would stand in one spot in her stall and was totally depressed and shut down. 

Because they have shoes on, slow hay feeders cannot be used, leaving the horses constantly bored and hungry. 

"Saddlebreds are brought up in a stall, and that is all they know, and it is natural to them"... Yes, it is just as natural as locking your child in its bedroom for its entire life, the equivalent of child abuse. Yes, that child would probably be terrified when taken out into the world for the first time as well. 

All this, just to win a few shows. It is disgusting. There are other ways to show your horse that do not involve abuse.


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## SlideStop

^^ there are tons of show horses who never see a turnout. This industry isn't the only one. Heck, I've seen lesson horses who never see turnout either. 

And I sympathize with you on the colic situation. We had a mare who had two terrible impaction colics. She was literally throwing herself around, flopping on the floor, rearing... She even has a seizure. After the second time my BO vowed to have her PTS since she had been litertally on the brink of death/euth twice. Unfortunately she coliced alone one night in her paddock after night checks and morning feed...  God only knows how painful her end was. She was on 24/7 turn out, high quality hay, very small amount of hard feed, an awesome drinker... Sometimes they physical make up is more then we can compensate for. =\
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jimmyp

cb06, 

You have no idea what I understand or like. The fact is, if you read through the first 3 pages of this thread, and then you read through some posts where the TWH industry is being defended, it all sounds so much the same.

Would you have liked it better if I said "Alleged" questionable training methods? Because, the chains that you only use for training, the tailsets, the "show package" that the saddlebred uses (though nothing like the TWH package) are ALL the same things that people throw a fit about when they cry about the TWH industry. The bands, are nothing new to me, and I know exactly how a chain works on a horse. 

Unfortunately in an effort to prove that you were smarter than me, you missed my whole point.

Good day.

Jim


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## cb06

4horses, that does indeed sound sad and traumatic. However, that is blatant and generic mismanagement by an absentee owner who is not actively training or showing and not indicative of common practice for a whole breed or industry. 

jp, sorry you feel that way, you obviously missed the point also. Repeating the same myth over and over, does not make it true.


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## jimmyp

cb06 said:


> Repeating the same myth over and over, does not make it true.


We do agree on something^^^^^

Jim


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## Ale

Wait wait wait. I have a question. You are telling me that putting ginger on a horses private area doesn't hurt them or cause them discomfort? Before I go any further, let me say that I know zero about these methods, but common sense tells me that applying an extremely potent herb doesn't cause some kind of pain? The characteristic odor and flavor of ginger is caused by a mixture of zingerone, shogaols and gingerols; *volatile oils.* I am not trying to fight with anyone, but you put ginger in your who-who and let me know how that feels. Sorry for being blunt, but I would like to know how people can say that the use of ginger doesn't cause discomfort and not just a "warming sensation".


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## cb06

No Ale, I'm saying gingering at rated ASB shows is prohibited, and if caught the trainer/owner can be sanctioned, just like any other illegal activity in other USEF regulated divisions (drugging in hunters, blood on dressage horses, etc).


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## Ale

Oh no, I am sorry cb06, I was referring to a comment made during the first or second page of this thread that really just made me cock my head to the side. I don't like calling people out for what they said, but here is the quote: 



LadyDreamer said:


> The use of ginger is not to sting or hurt the horse to get him to lift his tail higher, it causes a warming slight discomfort that makes him lift his tail higher. This is especially useful for a horse who wants to fight his tail brace. It just takes the worry out of that. When a horse starts fighting his brace, it can cause major problems.


"Not to sting or hurt the horse" and "warming slight discomfort." I think that a volatile oil on any creatures private area is going to cause more than just a slight warming sensation and discomfort. I think that would be down right painful, hence the reason they lift their tails for it in the first place; to get away from the pain of the ginger. Don't get me wrong, I am not an expert in the matter and I know far worse can and is done to horses to achieve certain things. But I see members writing things about how it doesn't sting and hurt horses to use ginger. I just want to understand, again sorry if I am being too blunt or what-have-you.


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## cb06

Ah, got it Ale. 
I think LD has a point, but... I have seen it used (many years ago, before the regulation were changed) and would say it does sting, but the effects are short lived.... So like you, I think there are many other more egregious things people do to horses, but am glad this is another 'tradition' that has past its prime and is being regulated out in professional circles.


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## SlideStop

Ale said:


> Wait wait wait. I have a question. You are telling me that putting ginger on a horses private area doesn't hurt them or cause them discomfort? Before I go any further, let me say that I know zero about these methods, but common sense tells me that applying an extremely potent herb doesn't cause some kind of pain? The characteristic odor and flavor of ginger is caused by a mixture of zingerone, shogaols and gingerols; *volatile oils.* I am not trying to fight with anyone, but you put ginger in your who-who and let me know how that feels. Sorry for being blunt, but I would like to know how people can say that the use of ginger doesn't cause discomfort and not just a "warming sensation".


Actually... If you go to the adult store you can but a lotion that will pretty much cause the same "symptoms" you describe. And it ain't cheap either! :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ale

cb06, I do agree. There are so many things that people do to animals in general that are far worse than using ginger and chemicals. But I was just curious about the topic. 

SlideStop, oh yes, I am sure that there are plenty of things for humans that cause the same reactions to sensitive skin. But we know how much to apply and if it causes us pain or not. A horse won't always tell you if they are in pain either.

Sorry for carrying the topic of ginger on, I just wanted to understand. Thanks


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## Palomine

Saddlebredsarelife said:


> this is TOTALLY wrong! if a saddlebred is sores or lame they show it clearly to you! when they trot they limp when they are in pain and you can really tell. NO ONE EVER puts glass in their hooves. the only ways they make the horses step higher is using shoes or putting light HARMLESS chains around their ankles in the stall. And i've picked up the chains we use and they are VERY light. we make sure all of our horses hooves are in best condition also.
> 
> SADDLEBREDS DO NOT NATRUALY RACK!!!!!! they are taught through training. the high stepping comes natrual to some saddlebreds. not all saddlebreds come from world champion saddlbreds which makes them able to NOT get the nack for high stepping.
> 
> know what your talking about :evil:



Sorry but you are wrong, they do gait naturally, and many of the older lines, and some may still, also hit a running walk, a pace (never desirable), an amble, shuffling, a singlefoot and a foxtrot too. 

Rex McDonald was known to fall into running walk on way out of ring.

They were bred to gait, and will do it naturally if they are predisposed to. Some horses are not going to period, just don't have the gene for it I would guess.

But the foals will hit it going across pasture. 

Hearing them come down hard packed dirt road, will make the hair rise on the back of your neck, best sound ever.


But you are correct on the chains and their lightness in the Saddlebred world. We've used the light plastic "chain" you hang flower pots from, maybe 1 oz at best? Or wooden roller balls, or leather bracelets, none of those had any weight to them, and for sure we didn't show with them, nor were legs greased. And darn sure didn't sore either.

I am old enough to remember when the Saddlebreds and the Tennessee Walking Horses showed at the same shows, classes were interspersed during the evening. And I can close my eyes and see the stands emptying when the Walkers came in the ring too.

And that was BEFORE it got really bad with them. At that point, the horses wore trotting boots and no chains, and the riders used leg and weren't so blastedly heavy handed with toes dangling down. BL hadn't gotten going hot and heavy at that point, but you could tell it was coming.

And the horses would nod and their ears would flop, which is part and parcel of this wonderful breed. You could hear their lips popping as they nodded.

But the stands, packed to capacity? Would be virtually empty when those horses hit the ring. Saddlebred people would not lend their implied support to cruelty. Even then things were being done to them and it wasn't something the Saddlebred people wanted to see.

My father always said the Plantation Walking Horse, as they used to be known, TWH now, was the poor man's show horse. You didn't have to be a good trainer or good rider, as the horses would withstand horrific abuse and just keep on trying to please.

And for what it is worth? I LOATHE speed rackers to the depths of my soul.

But if you want to see a beauty....watch this video of the great Midnight Sun....Tennessee Walking Horse - Midnight Sun #410751, home page by Walkers West


This brings tears to my eyes. What a beauty and love the nod.


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## vanna

I have not read all of this thread. All I am going to say is Saddlebreds are born stepping high and are the most beautiful
and regal horses on earth. 

As far as training methods that people on these forums disagree with, horses from all breeds and disciplines have questionable training methods used on some horses. I think it is horrible to brand an animal, but some don't. I don't believe in soring TWHs, some people don't. I don't understand why anybody would want a horse to carry it's head with it's nose nearly bumping the ground, but some people think that looks awesome. Without a doubt, there are Saddlebred trainers who are cruel and horrible and others who are sweet and kind, but it is that way with all trainers, riders, caretakers, grooms, poop shovelers......


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## thatkrayz

"Sorry but you are wrong, they do gait naturally, and many of the older lines, and some may still, also hit a running walk, a pace (never desirable), an amble, shuffling, a singlefoot and a foxtrot too."

Huh. I have a Saddlebred and she's never gaited before. She's naturally got some more knee action than the other horses in the field, but has never done anything other than walk, trot, and canter/gallop. I have also always been under the impression that the gaits that are shown are always trained into the horse. Whether they are more "naturally pre-disposed" to be better at it or not.


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## SullysRider

thatkrayz said:


> "Sorry but you are wrong, they do gait naturally, and many of the older lines, and some may still, also hit a running walk, a pace (never desirable), an amble, shuffling, a singlefoot and a foxtrot too."
> 
> Huh. I have a Saddlebred and she's never gaited before. She's naturally got some more knee action than the other horses in the field, but has never done anything other than walk, trot, and canter/gallop. I have also always been under the impression that the gaits that are shown are always trained into the horse. Whether they are more "naturally pre-disposed" to be better at it or not.


The only experience I have with Saddlebreds are with two horses, and they're owned by a friend of mine. I believe some never gait, her older gelding is three gaited, which means he walk, trots, canters, but her younger horse is naturally five gaited. He has never even been backed or lunged or anything, he is 3 and was just brought in from living his whole life in a pasture. So they either do it or they don't I believe.


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## Palomine

There are those that won't gait, period. Just don't have it in them to be able to.

Some will hit a gait but only if shod correctly, and usually that will mess up their trot, and since horses all have to trot, they will be trimmed, or shown Country Pleasure or Pleasure in 3 Gaited classes.

Some never will do it.

Those that have the ability to gait, will do it in the field as foals, going across pasture, or out trail riding. Just naturally fall into it.

You can enhance it, if horse isn't getting it right, by going down hill and letting them swing into it, or by shaking head to get them to settle into it. But it's in them.


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## thatkrayz

That's what I thought. Just a little misleading when telling Saddlebredsarelife that she is "wrong" when in fact, it *is* true that some have to be trained to rack and gait. And "they" do not naturally gait when only some naturally gait. 

Just clearing that up for future readers.


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