# Saddlebred show horses/ Walkers



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Okay this is my vent for the day.

Why do people think it is okay to put huge pads on a horse's hooves? I've talking about SOME of the Saddlebred show people who seem to think it is okay to have extremely long toes, crushed under/under developed heels, heavy shoes with a pad... Don't get me started in the TWH issues. Now I personally love a TWH that is barefoot and can gait all day long, but what they do in the show ring is just disgusting! 

And what is with the tail sets? How is it natural to keep a horse stalled 24/7 with something holding his tail up? How is that even comfortable for the horse? Maybe it doesn't rub the horse bloody but still doesn't look like a very happy horse to me! Plus the surgical altering of the horses tail? I just keep asking myself WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO DO THAT? 

And what is with the stretchers? For those who don't know what stretchies look like:
Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Training Shackles (Stretchies) Complete Set

I really wish they would just put a ban in place- no more surgical alterations of the horses tail in any new foals, and get rid of the pads and go either barefoot or in regular shoes... We should no longer be living in the dark ages. Especially when there is more and more proof that the pads are harmful to the horses hoof structure/function. There is no need to do cosmetic surgery on a horse that naturally has a beautiful tail to begin with... 

I'm talking about hooves that look like this or worse:
Google Image Result for http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/BSHorseshoeing/6297805145_ORIG.jpg


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Do you actually want to know the whys or is this going to be yet another saddlebred bashing thread?

Firstly, and the only thing I am going to say tonight on the subject, with it being 2 am and all. Saddlebreds and TWHs are not the same thing. Everything is completely different between the two, fron training to showing. We Saddlebred folks separated ourselves from the TWHs many many years ago mostly because we do not wish to be associated with that nonsense. We are still under the governance of the USEF, and all play by their rules. Those that do not follow those rules are punished heartily for it. The only rule we all knowing and willingly break is the peppermint rule. Saddlebreds thrive on peppermints. 

Tomorrow I will explain other things in greater detail, if you are actually wanting to know why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Its not ok, its abusive and disgusting anyway you slice it, or anything you call it. Saddleseat people put the same stacks on, wrap the same chains, do the same soring nonsense, but pretend they arnt for some reason.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Actually, Joe, the shoeing is totally different. While I don't appreciate either very much, the TWH stacks are simply horrible. Saddlehorse shoeing is, mostly, just overly long. Still not the healthiest, but not cruel as in the TWH world.

Saddlehorse shoes (as pictured above)











TWH stacks



















Why TWH stacks are allowed in this day and age totally baffles me. It is abuse, pure and simple, IMO.
If you can't see the huge difference, well........


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Joe4d said:


> Its not ok, its abusive and disgusting anyway you slice it, or anything you call it. Saddleseat people put the same stacks on, wrap the same chains, do the same soring nonsense, but pretend they arnt for some reason.


Well, it's obvious you know nothing about Saddlebreds in the Saddlebred world from this post.

American Saddlebreds as shown and trained BY REAL Saddlebred trainers, do not wear same stacks, they do not use the same chains and they do NOT sore.

A Saddlebred MUST trot and a trotting horse will not trot square if it is being sored or lame in ANY WAY.

And the old adage of "the good ones go light" still holds true. I put WC 5 Gaited Saddlebreds in the ring with a KEG SHOE and the same foot as a QH would have.

Saddlebreds carry a longer toe and may have thin leather pads too, but they do not have the stacks associated with the Big Lick horses, and never have had.

And the Big Licks are SHOWN in the ring with log chain links on, as well as trained with them.

Saddlebred's may or may not be trained with action devices, depending on what day it is in their training regimen. And those can be the cheap plastic links that people buy for hanging flower pots on the porch, to ones of light chain with leather buckles. Those can be bought in 2oz up to 6 oz. Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Round Link Action Chains

The bracelets are also used, Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Leather Ankle Rings 3 oz each.

They are NOT shown in them, ever.

The stretchers are resistance devices. They are fleece lined bracelets that have surgical tubing, that provide resistance to strengthen legs. They break very easily, and are not tight, but made long enough for only small resistance to be applied.

5 Gaited and Fine Harness horses are shown in either trotting boots, or quarter boots as they overreach. Sometimes they are hinged, where they move slightly. 

And not all Saddlebreds have had anything done to their tails, and definitely NOT done when they are foals. The tail is lifted by use of bustle, which SLOWLY is used to let muscles relax so tail can be put in set.

Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Tail Set Bustle

Most of them will not have to have anything done to their tails for that matter.

Tail sets which are kept on to protect tail as well as keep it up for horses which show in those divisions, also keep the tail itself from being damaged. Some of the tails are over 25 feet long. Great care is taken when using a tail set. Layers of cotton batting are placed over the crupper, tail is carefully arranged so that no hair is underneath, feathers are smoothed, and then dock wrapped, net placed over that, and then tail bag, or sheeting is brought up, crossed and tied, and blanket pins are used to keep weight of tail from hanging, as bag is pinned to blanket.

These horses in one week, usually get day of play, day of handwalking, day of lunging, day of jogging to cart, day of jogging under saddle, day of heavy work and one day of complete rest.

And action devices will vary, may be on for trotting work under saddle, but will be removed during various gaits. And may use none. It all depends on how horse is moving that day.

When I put horse away after being worked at barn, or at shows? It took me over an hour, from rubbing down with towel, to fingerpicking mane, or using fro comb lightly, to reapplying standing bandages, WHICH had to go on the leg they came from, to making sure there was not ONE HAIR that had any sweat on it, from nose to toes...anywhere.

After their class at show...it took 2 hours or better to put one up.

These horses are much loved, and pampered every day.

I will do next post on the sad fate of Saddlebreds that fall into the hands of what is called "speed racking" people, an offshoot of the Big Lick/Racking horse people....I can't bear to do it on this one.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Warning.

Any of the real horse people on here will be sickened, so be prepared.






 






 

I can't even STAND to hear this guy talk and after viewing these the other day I was physically ILL after it...for hours, as I am right now, and in tears.

THIS is what happens to a horse in "speed racking hands"...

And THIS WAS A NICE HORSE! And he is IN HELL!!!!!

THESE ARE NOT SADDLEBRED PEOPLE!!!!! These are jerks who compete and have NO CLUE as to any type of horsemanship of any kind.

If you can stand to watch, you will see horrific abuses here, and if you search for "speed racking" on youtube, you will find some horses that are merely being ridden at 35+ mph on concrete...over and over...all the way up to this type of abuse.

This is what our beautiful Saddlebreds are being subjected to.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I dont see how you can say saddlebred long long long feet aint abuse?

http://1stchoicehorseshoeing.com/images/shoe/LONGFOOT.jpg
^SB

Its not a big pad but thats because that heel is as tall as a twh pad-- that in my opinion is way more painful that having padded twh shoes.. 

http://www.horseforum.com/attachmen...-think-soring-wrong-twh-show-2009-shoes-1.jpg
^twh 

I aint agreeing with any of them-- i think its stupid to have to grow your horses feet out painfully to win a stupid show for the human. Its selfish and cruel. What does the horse win? Not a **** thing! Horses dont care about a stupid trophy or man made money.. whats the point?!


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Palomine said:


> Well, it's obvious you know nothing about Saddlebreds in the Saddlebred world from this post.
> 
> American Saddlebreds as shown and trained BY REAL Saddlebred trainers, do not wear same stacks, they do not use the same chains and they do NOT sore.
> 
> ...


I know enough , been to saddlebreds saddle seat barn, seen the horse pictures on the wall with all the awards and all the garbage on their feet, seen the chains around the pasterns in the stalls. 
Sell your lies somewhere else, I'm not buying.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Ugh. All I can say is ugh. It's like this "subject" is on repeat. Somehow all saddleseat horses have been lumped into this category of abuse and mistreatment. Not sure why I opened it, but it's beyond old.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Joe, I've worked this industry.

I know of no barn that put chains on them in stalls, ever.

And I am not trying to sell lies. I know what I am talking about.

Tell me the names of the "saddleseat barns" you have been to. Tell me the trainers of those barns, the circuits they show and the winners they have.

But don't you DARE accuse me of lying.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Palomine, you aren't going to change Joe's mind. Don't get upset when he calls you abusive and a liar. He is pretty well set. It doesn't help a bit to try to get into a war with him. Get used to the insults.  

I have seen a few that will leave the chains on in the stall for a little while. When I get around to a computer, I will see what there is to add.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

So even the supporters see chains on the pasterns ? Yet I'm wrong ? Oh well. I know what I see with my own eyes so not gonna be changing my mind anytime soon. Just google saddle seat horses and click images, plenty of examples. Just like in the TWH world. Lots of abusers, who of course ,all claim to not be.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Haha! I'm sorry. I know you were serious, but it's funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Im still wonderin why they strive on peppermint? Is it somethin in the mint itself --or because it keeps them in good spirit?



Joe4d-- if the abusers admitted to abusing the horses theyd be sittin in jail. 
Theyve outlawed any type of sorring in the TWHBEA shows-- they take thermal images of the horses feet to detect soring-- if the horse has been sored-- off to the alabama slamma and they never show TWHBEA again!! 

I am sure the 'tail. Cutting' or 'breaking' has long since been outdated? 

I dont like the idea of a horse with more heal than my stilletos but there are people out there that do more damage 'loving' them.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

You can still cut (tendons) and set tails. Just like the owners of some breeds of dogs alter the ears and all the other things they do. Just like people getting their noses, ears, chins and other parts altered.

Seems to be the nature of some humans to do these things.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My issue is with those stupid shoes. If you study hoof function (I took a farrier course), you want to have well developed heels to absorb shock. When you grow a hoof that long the heels and lateral cartilages atrophy. I don't see how a horse can stay sound like that! I've been to some Saddlebred shows and watched/looked at the horses hooves. I don't know how those horse's aren't in pain on both front feet! Navicular syndrome anyone? I know Saddlebred shoeing is not the same as stacking, but I can't see how that is healthy for hoof function! So better than the TWH shoeing, but still not good for the horse. 

Toto- they aren't breaking the tail, they are cutting the ligament which holds the tail down. Not everyone does that, but that is what they are doing around here! Along with the use of ginger as well! Not all shows are USEF approved/monitored. 

I wasn't talking about it being done to foals, I was talking about having them ban the use of tail sets/tail nicking and padded shoes in all horses after a certain year/age. Maybe the new generation of show horses won't have to suffer like that. 

I just don't see what is wrong with getting rid of tail sets, and the padded shoes. That way the horses can still be like horses! and not locked in a barn most of their life with no turnout for the fear that they will loose a shoe and break some hoof off with it or god forbid step on their tail and loose a tiny bit of hair. 

If people think abuse isn't happening, they must have their head in the sand. Palomine- it sounds like your barn is well run... I just don't see how those horses can be happy living with no turnout or interaction with other horses (although that goes for a lot of show horses in general)... 

The funny thing is these people all claim to "love" their horses and see nothing wrong with it. Yet these same horses crib away at the barn all day long, or develop sterotypical behaviors... Why don't the owners and trainers of these horses put their foot down and ask for rule changes? Put a stop to this in general? 

What is wrong with judging a horse on it's natural beauty/Movement? Or having a barefoot horse? 

Obviously there are those owners who love their horses and aren't intentionally trying to harm them, but there are just as many owners that are ignorant about what they are actually doing (or the trainer is doing) to their horse. Or maybe the owners just don't care.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I didnt even know about the tail stuff, but bustles was mentioned on another thread. Had to look that up, Shame on the organizations, judges and participants. A complete body harness forcing the tail up and flat on the back ? Now I like saddleseat even less. I do wish I could edit my previous post to be less harsh, but it is sad. 
Oh and soring in THW, and stack shoes are alive and well. they just keep finding new ways around the laws and inspectors, and the TWHBEA by turning a blind eye and condones it.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

No, Joe. I accept that your mind is set. 

Haha, they thrive on peppermints because they are a treat. We crinkle that wrapper and they start POSING. Arching their necks, getting those excited pretty eyes. And we praise them for it. One of Dad's show colts he play with and "lead" him from his stall down the barn and into the crossties just with the crinkly wrapper. Oh boy do some of them get excited. 



> Why do people think it is okay to put huge pads on a horse's hooves? I've talking about SOME of the Saddlebred show people who seem to think it is okay to have extremely long toes, crushed under/under developed heels, heavy shoes with a pad... Don't get me started in the TWH issues. Now I personally love a TWH that is barefoot and can gait all day long, but what they do in the show ring is just disgusting!


Exactly. SOME of the Saddlebred show people. There is so much involved on this issue, that it isn't really worth getting into. There is too much variance in people, farriers, trainers, natural growth of individual horses' feet... I will agree with you that SOME saddlebred show people take horrid care of feet. We had one stud come in for training that was so bad his right front was over an inch lower at the coronet band than the left. And they wondered why he was going uneven. Bah. SOME people. 

There is no way to justify or explain everything as there is just too much variance. I can say that not all are awful. Pads help give length when needed so you don't HAVE to grow the foot out(you could say that you don't have to anyway. Not saying you are wrong.) You see a lot of the horribly long feet in pleasure horses, where pads, even therapeutic pads, are not allowed. The whole pleasure horse thing is getting way to skewed as it is. I am pretty sure changes are in the works for the next few years on the whole thing. You don't see it as much in the highly competitive Five Gaited horses. It would really mess with ability to perform all five gaits. You really only see it with the three gaited ones. 

Pads also serve as shock absorbers. Some horses need it with their jackhammer trots to keep from jarring themselves lame. 

As for soundness. Well, our horses have to be sound to trot high. If they are in pain in any tiny bit, you lose motion.



> And what is with the tail sets? How is it natural to keep a horse stalled 24/7 with something holding his tail up? How is that even comfortable for the horse? Maybe it doesn't rub the horse bloody but still doesn't look like a very happy horse to me! Plus the surgical altering of the horses tail? I just keep asking myself WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO DO THAT?


Please tell me where anything is natural in a human horse relationship. And please show me where you found a statement proclaiming that we are the most naturalistic of people. 

How are tail sets natural? They are not. 

How is it natural to keep a horse stalled, wearing a set or not? It is not. 

How is it comfortable? It probably isn't, but we do our best to make it as comfortable as possible. We specially fit the sets to them, pad them to prevent rubs, make them loose and supple so the horse can move and lay down in them. I know my braces and then retainers were not comfortable at all, but in the name of fashion, I wore them. 

Why would we do it? Purely for fashion. Gasp, I know. Way back when horses were the main mode of transportation, it had practical applications, but now, it is just for looks. The high tail balances the overal image with the high neck carriage. It is similar to, but much less traumatic than the cropping of ears on dogs.

How is it done? I will just copy from a previous thread. 

Some are hand stretched, some are in "humane braces" where the high tail is just a piece of wire and a "cap" or wig, but most of them require a simple surgical procedure. They are put in a harness that is specifically fit to each horse. At first, several weeks before the surgery, they are put in a bustle which is a really thick crupper to help loosen the muscles and to ensure that the horse will even tolerate wearing the set(You don't want to find this out the day after surgery). After a few weeks of wearing the bustle and hand stretching, a vet comes out and does a simple procedure where the muscles that allow the horse to clamp their tail down with force are nicked. When they heal, the horse still has full use of his tail, they just cannot clamp down with force. It also makes the tail loose enough to be put in a brace do the show ring creating that aforementioned balanced look. 

It is purely for fashion now. Not necessary, and they require an absurd amount of care during healing. Every effort is made before, during, and after the surgery to make sure the horse is comfortable and pain free in order to protect the tail. A horse in discomfort will rub his tail, pull his set off, of find some othe way to try to rid himself of the discomfort which will obliterate the tail and cause the horse greater pain. When this happens, often the damage is irreparable. They are pampered, and carefully tended every day until they are fully healed. 

Once the procedure is complete, the horse does not need to wear his set 24/7. Show horses only wear their sets a week or two before a show. In the off season, the sets come off. So do the shoes.




> And what is with the stretchers?


Stretchers are for resistance and strength training. They are for muscle development. They serve exactly the same purpose as the elastics used in many human fitness programs. 



> I really wish they would just put a ban in place- no more surgical alterations of the horses tail in any new foals, and get rid of the pads and go either barefoot or in regular shoes... We should no longer be living in the dark ages. Especially when there is more and more proof that the pads are harmful to the horses hoof structure/function. There is no need to do cosmetic surgery on a horse that naturally has a beautiful tail to begin with...


There are many in the industry moving away from the practice of cutting tails. Which is good. I love the look, but hate the care it takes. Luckily, it is legal to show a horse in any class/any division with a natural tail, and many shows, including the world championships have added classes specifically for natural tails. Our judges are our trainers, so we have some that are prejudiced and some that will tie a good horse regardless... And we have some that just play politics and don't actually judge. We are making progress away from it, believe it or not. It is something the industry just has to get used to. Similar to odd colored horses in the ring. A lot of times it is difficult to place on a horse with too much flash or an odd color because he will draw the eye and his every movement and mistake is noticed. A horse with an unset tail sticks out a lot and he will have to be exceptional to place. We are working on it. More and more are seen each year and they are placing better. 


As for chains. They are not abusive. They do not hurt the horse, when used alone. When the TWHs are sored, there are chemicals involved. You can't sore a saddlebred. 

What they do is encourage the horse to try to step out of them. The feel of them, the movement of them, encourages the horse to step UP and OUT. Some horses react to them, some do not. My sister's QH wouldn't think twice about them. Put them on a hackney(those overly sensitive ******s) and they will hit themselves in the chin.(exaggerating there) That is also why they are not left on. Once the horse is used to them, they no longer have that UP and OUT effect. You will have some who will leave them on, thinking it will help, but really, the chains don't do that much. 

I would say our biggest problem as a whole would be drugging. I am pretty sure that is where most of our USEF fines and violations are. We are not free of abuse, though what outsiders see/believe is not often what really is.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

If you really want to change this, GET INVOLVED! I would be very happy to help you. I can help set you up with a GOOD trainer, I can help you find a GREAT horse to start this. I would be happy to let you stay with me during the Conventions at the start of the year so that you can come talk to our members, our breeders, our trainers, our owners, and our leaders. I can get you contact info so that you can come in and do a seminar for us and teach us. If you want to change this, then you have to make an example. I can set you up with like minded people in the industry and you can work to get your message across.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Joe, show me a showing discipline that doesn't have SOME trainers who are abusive to win. Just one. I see it in all English showing, All western showing, Endurance, racing, driving etc etc etc.

There will always be the few trainers that paint the world black to the few who only see what they want to see. There are far more trainers, who do not use these tactics.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Joe4d said:


> I didnt even know about the tail stuff, but bustles was mentioned on another thread. Had to look that up, Shame on the organizations, judges and participants. A complete body harness forcing the tail up and flat on the back ? Now I like saddleseat even less. I do wish I could edit my previous post to be less harsh, but it is sad.
> Oh and soring in THW, and stack shoes are alive and well. they just keep finding new ways around the laws and inspectors, and the TWHBEA by turning a blind eye and condones it.


Its perfectly fine to feel so strongly about something. I totally agree with you.. they are changing the TWHBEA industry. I doubt theyll remove padded shoes all together but in 2009 when they made that no soring law there were no participants. That means a lot-- they aint takin no.. you know what, lol. 

I understand that soring is still around n all but its not around at the shows anymore. Theyve cracked down big time. You get big jail time for soring and they kick you out of the TWHBEA-- ya cant show there ever again. In my opinion- they shouldntt be able to participate in any of the events or be alowed to have horses ever again.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Kicked out ? Baloney,, convicted animal abusers are handed weeks long suspensions. Whipty doo. Any crack down was because the videos hit national news and public awarness was raised. NOt out of any sense of shame, or wanting to do whats right. Without the public awareness it would be just business as usual, just like the saddle seat shows. I cant speak about other show or disciplin abuses. As I havent witnessed it first hand like I have with walkers and Saddlebreds. And just like TWH's I feel those that support the shows , judge the shows, write the rules for the shows, and spend money on the shows and the sanctioning organizations are just as guilty.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Joe, show me a showing discipline that doesn't have SOME trainers who are abusive to win.



Just because every discipline has abusive trainers doesn't mean that every discipline is created equal. If one or two people complained about saddleseat then we could just ignore their opinions. But when threads like this pop up every few months...? Maybe, just maybe, when so many people complain, that's because there's something to complain about.

Maybe it is possible to do saddleseat without the excessively long toes etc. but what proportion of riders do it that way? And how often do those people win? Is there one abusive rider for every 20 good ones, or is it the other way around? How common does abusive riding/training have to be before you come to the conclusion that the discipline itself is the problem?


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Public awareness was raised about the atrocities done to the TWH.

Those horrible things are not done to saddlebreds. A very well bred too show saddlebred plainly will not tolerate it. They are not kind and tolerant TWHs who placidly take their abuses. A high mettled saddlebred when exposed to prolonged pain and/or suffering will become dangerous creatures. 

Again an again we have said it, and I will say it again. The TWH and the American Saddlebred are two different breeds. Thy are not treate or trained the same. They do not act, move, or think the same. They are both completely different. There are reasons we do not have combined shows anymore. There is a reason we willingly accept he rules and governance of the USEF. Yeah, not all of our shows are rated. We still play by the rules for the most part. 

Just because we share a saddle type, and a few tools, does not mean we are the same. 

Goodness, if we didn't want more outsiders and more people to get involved with the breed, to own, ride and yes SHOW, why would we put any money into marketing. Why would we offer a nationwide free lesson program to get people to come try it. 

We WANT more people to get involved with the American Saddlebred. 

The reason we get a thread every couple of months bout this nonsense is because of people who see and do not seek to understand. "I don't have much, if any, experience with this, but I hate it! I don't understand so I hate it. It is different, so I hate it." 

Also, just because there are problems with one breed who choose to use a certain type of saddle, does not mean that all breeds that choose that saddle have those problems. We have problems yes, but one breed has made the whole discipline evil in the eyes of everyone else. 

IF we were guilty of the atrocities done to TWHs, why are we not checked by the DQP? Why are we not subject to the same treatment by the ruling bodies? Perhaps because we are not at the same faults requiring such treatment. 

Once more, the American Saddlebred and the Tennessee Walking horse are two completely different breeds and it should not be assumed that they receive the same treatment v


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

There will be 'bad apples' in every single discipline- bad riders, bad trainers, bad barns. And so it's easy to take what IS abusive behaviour, and then lump every single 'breed' or 'discipline' specific attribute or training method in with those abusive behaviours. I don't think the solution is for your average rider to say 'x, y, and z need to be removed / banned' because unless you are IN that industry, or have really studied that discipline you don't know all of the ins and outs, what is or isn't abusive. The same thing goes, like I said, for every single discipline. And I definitely don't think posting examples of the absolute worst are any way of going about 'proving a point'. Like I said, the 'bottom of the barrel' exists in all disciplines, what we need to see are the majority, the subtler (at least not blatantly obvious) examples on a larger scale. Pointing to one wacko that calls himself a trainer and saying 'this needs to be banned because LOOK AT THIS GUY' doesn't give you very much ground to stand on, does it? 
I don't know very much about the Saddleseat discipline, it seems like it was developed to showcase the unique qualities of a breed. That's what it needs to get back to, the unique qualities of a breed, not the absolute EXTREMES we are seeing- which means, as in Western Pleasure, HUS, Dressage, etc. it really does come back to the judges, doesn't it? If the judges (who do know the discipline inside and out) start penalizing the EXTREME lengths gone to by some (not all, some) trainers, people will follow the trends. It isn't going to happen over night, but chances are it will happen.

I don't think it's right to penalize an entire group of equestrians, because as multiple people in this thread have stated, there ARE the barns that do things fairly and spoil the horses rotten. Now your average rider might go in there and see some practices they don't like- but then these Saddleseat riders might go into your WP or HUS barn and see things that THEY don't like, that aren't considered abusive / inhumane / abnormal.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

It's equal, trust me. Look at pencil-pushing western pleasure horses without true gaits. Look at dressage riders at ALL levels who use rollkur constantly and who can't preform a true collected trot or piaffe to save their lives. Look at racing of any type with the doping and running 1 & 2 year olds basically into the ground. Look at reining and their futurities with 2 year old performing as 6 & 7 year olds should. Should I continue? It's everywhere and it ebbs and flows as far as who is in the limelight. It's not so long ago that steeplechasing was being hit hard for the number of fatalities they had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xt/90117057.jpg?v=1&g=fs1|0|DOR|17|057&s=1

^sb



http://cmsimg.tennessean.com/apps/p...terinary-groups-seek-ban-horse-soring-devices
^twh

That saddlebred has longer feet that this walker with pads. I'm not justifying 'big lick' but it sure seems a lot like the pot callin the kettle black here. 

Just remember theyre using those contraptions to teach them to stay in pace too. A horse that is not naturally gaited in pads like that.. Why? Isnt it more strenuous to make them gait and hold their tails up like that unnaturally? 

The poor SBs always end up looking real swayed backed when a rider is mounted as well-- hollowing of the back is an indication of pain. 

Im not takin up for 'big lick' but SBs arent any better at all. They just havent got the attention the walkers have.. yet.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> But when threads like this pop up every few months...? Maybe, just maybe, when so many people complain, that's because there's something to complain about.


This thread and many others were not started in an effort to truly learn anything about the discipline, they are more of a lynch mob thread. It is like getting on any dog forum and bringing up the topic like "I think all Pit Bulls are killers" They get attention. People have strong reactions to the topic and sadly it is more often then not misinformed.

There are people on here like LadyDreamer that try very hard to explain things but... talking to a wall makes little difference in the long run. Some people are simply unwilling to hear anything different then they THINK they already know. LD, I think you are a saint for continuing to try.

It has been said a few thousand times but Walkers and Saddlebreds are very very different and often, the "Abuse" that is talked about in referrence to "saddleseat" is not in the Saddlebred industry. Yes, there are BAD Saddlebred trainers. I have known a few. Fortuneately most of those got their just rewards for the abuses they practiced. 

Sometimes I read the critisisms and just thing "what?" because they are so far from the truth it scares me. Maybe after so many years of fighting for my beloved Saddlebreds, I am simply worn out. 

In my many years on this earth and all the shows I have attended over the years, I can honestly say that I saw NOTHING at any Saddlebred show as bad as I saw at some other breed shows. I didn't see blood draining, spur scars, bleeding mouths, broken spirits etc.. There truly is something in all disciplines and it COULD be argued that all showing brings out the worst in people. That too might be true but then... don't get me started on what I saw at the trail rides and the back yard horse people. Abuse is done by stupid or cruel individuals and people should only be judged on THEIR individual actions, not the actions of others who just so happen to enjoy the same activity. 

As far as the man in the video's posted earlier with the "speed racking" Saddlebred. That made me sick to my stomach. I wanted to gather a group of friends and go knock him off the horse and beat the pulp out of him. That poor dear old horse should be enjoying some casual trail rides and lots of pampering. Instead he is subjected to an ape bouncing around on his back while IT screams at him and yanks on his mouth. Don't judge the Saddlebred breed by the few apes that are out there. That is NOT the majority.

Oh and on the "long toes and long heels" thing... That too is not participated in by all. There are many many more short hooved horses in the ring doing very well.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Toto, the SB holds itself "hollow" largely because it is built into their DNA. They hold themselves head high since birth, not because harsh hands and bit make them do it (although some do use those methods).



















Hollowness is not evidence of any pain in these foals. As for sway, I have heard that there is a genetic trait in this breed that predisposes some horses to this problem, but I am not well versed on this.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Sure some Saddlebred's have a sway back but certainly NOT the majority. Conformation is part of the judging. This video shows how they do that. Once the performance part is over, they line up and unsaddle to show off the horses comformation.

That is not in all classes, obviously.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

What's really sad is people attack one breed or discipline but close their eyes to bigger issues in the horse world (ex. Transport to slaughter; an unnecessary process that could be solved by shorter distances, hence less cost and better more humane conditions for the horses, more slaughter houses in the US equals more jobs as well. Sorry if this offends someone but until someone comes up with a better solution, this is mine) 

:-( 

Another really sad thing is that people attack something when they are ignorant about it instead of learning and trying to understand.

ANY tool in the wrong hands can create abuse but in the right hands can be a very useful tool as any good horse person knows.

I don't know anything about saddlebreds and at first I was appalled when I saw this but I opened my mind and actually listened to what LadyDreamer had to say instead of only the one side... Its not wrong because it's different or unknown to us.

Nothing we do to horses is "natural" and don't get me started on the things we do to dogs for dog shows.
I don't see how this is any different than a barrel racer or a hunter/jumper. When actual abuse like the racking video happens, then fine go ahead and rant but one bad egg doesn't make us all bad and its not right to judge someone based on a stereotype or label...
Every discipline is going to have abuse. Jockey's run them hard at a young age, futurity races, barrel racers; jumping has to be hard on shoulders and feet yet we jump them 4-5 ft and some jumps are insanely bigger; trail riders go up and down some insane hills and cliffs, I've seen some crazy cliff climbing; Dressage horses don't move naturally and look like their heads are tied down; endurance horses are run too far in too short of a time; etc... I DO NOT AGREE with these stereotypes but its an example of what's out there and how ignorance can misconstrue facts. I just wish people would try to learn before they jump the gun with assumptions. You know what they say happens when you Assume? You make an *** out of You and Me. (Hehe get it? ***; u; me) 
Sorry my biggest pet peeve is close mindedness. You don't have to agree but you should at least use an open mind to listen to others. You can never stop learning and the best way to learn is to be open minded.
*rant over*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

LadyDreamer said:


> Again an again we have said it, and I will say it again. The TWH and the American Saddlebred are two different breeds. Thy are not treate or trained the same.


Again an again we have said it, and I will say it again: I knew that already. So did many other people here. You seem to think that all negative opinions are caused by ignorance, but that isn't the case. Believe it or not, it's possible for someone to be well informed and still disagree with you. 

I have explained the specific reasons why I think saddleseat is wrong before, and nothing I've read here has challenged my logic.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ladydreamer-we are not morons, so please quit telling us that TWH and SB's are 2 different breeds. I think we all know that. I will suggest, as was said in the TWH thread we had months ago, that the people IN that discipline often are accepting of some treatment/behaviors that horrify the rest of us because that is what they know. That is the way their discipline is, and that is that-they accept it. I see this with my own niece, who has Morgans that are saddleseat horses. Hooves are longer than I would EVER have on my horse, and the whole "bustle: thing-well-never have understood that at all. Her horses are world competitors and nothing I would EVER admit was mine, until they are retired from the show circuit.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

To those who actually show SS... from a Saddlebred owner and lover who does not show SS : 

Can you explain to me WHY the hooves are kept so long in the toe? So far there has been no saddleseat rider who has been able to explain this in any real "logical" way to me.

Now, I'm not a professional farrier, but I have taken short courses on farrier work, and barefoot trimming... We were taught that a long toe and underslung heel will cause a horse to hit the ground harder than a horse with a balanced hoof of the appropriate length, which can cause problems like navicular, tendon strains, and extra wear on joints. 

I would think that increasing the concussion from the way Saddleseat horses move by deliberately trimming their hooves in a way that is harder for the hoof to function properly would sort of be detrimental to the horse's well being over the longterm. (And I did read the post which explains that the rubber pads are used to help with this). It is probably the biggest change I would like to see saddleseat riders make. I have heard it over and over that "the best do it light shod", but even light shod most of those toes are still what the majority of the horse world would consider "too long". I understand that it is a progressive issue, and that it will be hard to convince people to change if those horses are never rewarded in the show ring... But still, something I would love to see happen. 

I admit I don't really understand the "joy" of saddleseat, even though I do understand the joy a Saddlebred can bring people. I have been trying for years to understand saddleseat enough to at least not pass along misinformation when people ask me, but some the practices seem to elude me. (With that said, in any discipline I know of, there are practices which just make me a little less proud to be human... I understand that not everyone who plays in those rings follow all the same practices, but still) 

(For anyone who cares, my Saddlebreds have competed in Dressage, Jumping, Eventing, Open Pleasure/hack, Gymkhanas, and trail ride. They are all barefoot, and none wear a tail set... I can honestly say they are fantastic horses, no matter what they are being asked to do!)


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

TheLastUnicorn, judging by the fact that you put "logical" in quotes, I'm willing to bet that there will never be a "logical" answer that you will accept. In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that you've had at least a couple of people explain it to you, but since it didn't satisfy you, it was "illogical" regardless of the true amount of logic involved. Kind of like how I will never hear a "logical" reason why 30+ year old men still play games like Dungeons and Dragons. 

If you don't love saddleseat, that's fine. I don't love jumping, eventing, gymkhana, or contesting in general. I don't love reining or cow work either, but I can appreciate the athlete in each. There is abuse in all of these and there are things I can think of easily that are "normal" in each of these that I would never dream of doing with/to my horse. You also can't reasonably take saddleseat and lump into TWH and Saddlebred (though I do love those saddlebreds!). There are many breeds that ride saddleseat and there are many variations to the discipline because of this. It's all based on the capability of the breed in general. You won't see Arabs moving like Friesians, Friesians moving like TWHs, etc. They're all judged in saddleseat based on their breed. That's probably the single most frustrating thing I see on these threads. Then, there's the tunnel vision where people attack, but give no acknowledgment to the wrongs in their own disciplines. 

I love riding saddleseat. I've done many trail rides on a National Reserve Champion NSH and a Regional champion Arab stallion. The NSH is 25 this year and going strong. He even competed at 19 at regionals and took a Top 5. No navicular, no tendon problems, nothing. Ever. Same goes with every country pleasure, english pleasure, and park horse I grew up with as a groom at Class A shows. I've never seen one come up with the problems that many of you are assuming. 

You don't have to love the discipline. You don't have to buy the tack. You don't have to own the horses. By now you should understand that there is good and bad in every single discipline and none are exempt from some kind of taboo or controversy. None. It's a fact of life that there is nothing that everyone in a society will agree upon. It's simple human nature. You're not going to change the minds of either side. All we can do it inform and educate. At least then if you still bash it, you're doing it with some kind of fundamental understanding of what you're bashing. Remember, knowledge is power.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

I absolutely LOVE Arabs/Saddlebreds/NSH. However I hate when they are bashed as a whole. 

I always seen those horses flying in the pastures with their legs in the air and are very, very natural. I'd honestly would love to own one as a next horse, or possibly a second horse. 

Like others have said, you will see abuse in every discipline. Example, I do western pleasure, and LOADS of people say all trainers 'tie the horse's heads up high so they'll put heads down low' and 'they drain the horse's blood so the horse will be lazy/quiet' all of it is bogus. 

Yes I've heard trainers (there's even a video on youtube with it) put their horses heads up high, etc. But I've never seen it personally. Its annoying and a lot of people don't have their facts right.

I would visit a barn with them before you jump to conclusions from what you've read on the internet...Which also reminds me of this video.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

First off, I will say that I don't believe all Saddlebred trainers are evil and all Saddlebred barns are bad. Yes, there is abuse in every discipline. But I see some of you saying no true professional Saddlebred trainer who shows will allow such atrocities in their barn. I personally know of one very large Saddlebred show barn that has won numerous national awards that does train their horses with methods that are abusive. I have a saddlebred now that took me literally years to get over what they had done to him, both physically and mentally. I worked with this horse before his owner sent him there for training, and I was the one she called in tears and gave him to when they had all but ruined him. I am not going to spout names because they have far far more money and clout than me, and I can't even begin to battle them if it came to that, but I will say that yes, the saddlebred industry, while not all bad, tends to protect their own, even when they don't deserve protecting. And yes, there are still some very barbaric practices going on behind the scenes there.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

SEAmom said:


> TheLastUnicorn, judging by the fact that you put "logical" in quotes, I'm willing to bet that there will never be a "logical" answer that you will accept. In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that you've had at least a couple of people explain it to you, but since it didn't satisfy you, it was "illogical" regardless of the true amount of logic involved. Kind of like how I will never hear a "logical" reason why 30+ year old men still play games like Dungeons and Dragons.
> 
> If you don't love saddleseat, that's fine. I don't love jumping, eventing, gymkhana, or contesting in general. I don't love reining or cow work either, but I can appreciate the athlete in each. There is abuse in all of these and there are things I can think of easily that are "normal" in each of these that I would never dream of doing with/to my horse. You also can't reasonably take saddleseat and lump into TWH and Saddlebred (though I do love those saddlebreds!). There are many breeds that ride saddleseat and there are many variations to the discipline because of this. It's all based on the capability of the breed in general. You won't see Arabs moving like Friesians, Friesians moving like TWHs, etc. They're all judged in saddleseat based on their breed. That's probably the single most frustrating thing I see on these threads. Then, there's the tunnel vision where people attack, but give no acknowledgment to the wrongs in their own disciplines.
> 
> ...


Actually, I don't happen to hate or bash Saddleseat... As an outsider I have questions, and some reservations (I have both for other disciplines too, including ones I do participate in, but this topic was Saddleseat so I thought this might be a place to ask the question). As a Saddlebred owner I also get asked a lot of questions about Saddleseat... It isn't very common in our area, and when people see a Saddlebred they do think Saddleseat, which is, after all something the Saddlebred is widely known to be successful doing. I hate saying "I don't know", and immediately getting the PETA run down on the sport and in turn how the people don't like the breed because of what they presume about Saddleseat horses... I also don't want to spew bull doody to someone, because that doesn't do any favors either.

I can certainly admire the time and effort put into training a Saddleseat horse correctly, I can also appreciate the athletism it takes to be successful in any Saddleseat class. 

Yes, I put logical in quotes because the answers I have been given in the past just don't ring true to me, based on what I was taught and what I've actually observed, rather than some idea in my head:

For example I had one SS person tell me that a Saddlebred NEEDS to have that long a toe or it won't stay sound. When I mentioned I owned a few Saddlebreds that were trimmed in a balanced barefoot trim - according to what (in my area) mainstream considers normal because we don't have much exposure to Saddleseat, and all of mine were very sound, they walked away from me with a "oh, guess you've been lucky then". 

- so yeah, I guess I decided that answer wasn't logical, because evidence has sort of proved otherwise to me. I sort of don't think it's just luck keeping my horses sound. Maybe this answer needed some additional explanation, in which case go ahead and explain to me why having so much toe is helpful to longterm soundness in a Saddleseat horse. 

I had another tell me that they needed the toe because that's how their feet are built. 

- now, I know enough to about trimming to know that this might be true of some horses, in that some horses do indeed have a hoof conformation that tends to be more forward in the toe, but not so that it gives the appearance of having toe flare like is seen on a lot of saddleseat horses (and I won't even differentiate between the saddleseat breeds much here either, though some seem to have more of it done).... I also haven't noticed such extreme toes on other Saddlebreds who are not Saddleseat horses. 

I had yet another say... Well, everyone else does it. You need to in order to place.

- not sure about you, but I just don't accept that answer from anyone... On any topic. It just really bugs me... Or maybe it's the fact that it shows that the person is unaware of why they are doing something that bugs me about it. I think if we feel we must get our animals to work for us, we should at least know why we are doing what we are to achieve our goal. 

While it is totally true that many horses can be shod with longer toes and underslung heels and go through life without any noticeable issues, science has been proving that they are more comfortable when their feet are worn in a way that is closer to natural, because there is less stress on the rest of their body. 

So yes, I ask if there is any logical reason, ... And while I may not agree with a reason, it should at least make sense... Not something made up because the real answer isn't known, or worse, because the real answer just wouldn't look favorable for the sport. (Let's not kid ourself, every sport probably has those types of answers about something or a few things!) 

For instance, I don't really agree with the tail sets... But, I can understand they help protect the tail in a way that allows them to create the desired look for the ring, it is a "logical" answer. Some might argue that it's not fair to the horse, others will say, it doesn't really harm them.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I am not calling anyone morons(Your words. Not mine.) but there is need to say it. I wouldn't have to say that over and over if every time someone says "Those horrible things that happen to TWHs...AND Saddlebreds." My god. Please tell me why people seem to think the only difference between them are the names. 

The atrocites that happen to TWHs aka "soring" do not happen with Saddlebreds. This does not and cannot happen to any trotting breed. THOSE are the atrocities that I speak of. Those acts no Saddlebred trainer can do. Not because we feel it is wrong and abusive. It is because those things do not work with trotting horses. If we could do it with success, I can guarantee you there would be some that would do it. 

I cannot stand the people who think that every single high stepping breed is subject to those horrible acts, or that the entire seat revolves around the abuses of a particular breed. 

If this thread had simply stated the American Saddlebred, then I wouldn't feel the need to say it. But when this topic comes up, people constantly compare the two as though they were one and the same. 

They are completely different things. We train differently. Our horses do different things. Move differently. Think differently. Act differently. Everything is different between them. 

One breed does not define the saddle type. 

And I am in no way saying that we are free of abuse. Oh boy, do we have some abuse. Oh, I could tell you some horror stories. I can name names, tell you horses that have been KILLED by said abuses, horses that have been ruined, the trainers that were apart of it, owners that let it happen. Trust me. We are not free of abuse. As no breed is. If you are heavily into something, you come to know the bad with the good. You even know the good who do some bad. There are quite a few trainers that, to me, it would be better to put the horse on a kill truck than to send the horse to that person. 

One of my favorite horses was almost killed because to SOME trainers, it is OKAY to work a horse at top level who was just gelded the day before. To some this is okay. He herniated and almost died. When is it EVER okay to work a horse hard after a surgery? It blows my mind! 

And then there are the solitary stalls that are all to prevalent. Most of the barns I have been in recently have installed windows or some other thing in older style barns to help with this, but there are a bunch out there that are still dark little holes. One of our stallions figured out how to dismantle the loose boards in his stall at his old barns so that he could see another horse. It blew his mind when he was put in the open fronted stalls at our barn. 

There is no way to begin rationalizing, explaining, justifying, or defending some of the bad feet you will find. I was raised differently. At our barn(I grew up in a show training and breeding barn), we do our own shoeing, so that is all I know. We never did have foot long feet. We do use weights every now and then. Young gaited prospects you will NEVER see a long toe on. I cannot tell you the whys for everything here. 

No horse can be shod the exact same as every other. Each horse needs very specific things in the way of foot care and shoeing to perform as they do. Every horse has something different. 

The longer the foot, the wider the base, adding stability. A horse that cannot wear pads(aka, a pleasure horse) who needs more weight might be grown out. Angles play a HUGE role in how the foot travels. Weight, and the placement of the weight also changes the trajectory. The shape of the shoes changes things too. There is SO much involved in shoeing to get a horse to travel a certain way. Some horses just don't grow a lot of heel too. I have known many who it was such a trial to get them to grow any kind of workable heel. Please talk to a trainer and a farrier when you see that and have them expalin it to you on an individual basis. I am not going to say that our horses have the best feet evah! There are a lot of problems there too. There is just too much variance with each horse and situation.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Toto, the SB holds itself "hollow" largely because it is built into their DNA. They hold themselves head high since birth, not because harsh hands and bit make them do it (although some do use those methods).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The genetic marker that most horses with lordosis share has recently been found in the last few years. I actually donated the blood of several of our horses for this project.

One thing I believe that heavily influences horses are environmental factors. You can have horses that have what it takes genetically to be low backed, and not show it, and never show it, and never ever have a foal show it. And then you have the ones that come from lines that never had a soft back in their family show it, due to poor environmental factors(I believe lack of developmental nutrition plays a huge role). 

The extreme lordosis is very rare anymore. I am talking super U shaped backs. There are several out there still showing, and a good number of ones with mild lordosis. It is not something we breed for, ever, but we will work with it when we get it. 

Since conformation does play a big role, we just put those horses in classes that won't be stripped in the lineup. They make excellent equitation mounts, and I would almost consider them cheating(almost), because they literally suck you in and hold you in place. They feel pretty neat, I will say. 

If anyone is interested, I would be happy to look up the research papers on Lordosis for you. I just love the scientists who were working on the project. They were all so nice. I loved having them out. 

The high neck is not what causes it, nor is "riding early". That can mess up muscles and joints, but won't cause severe lordosis. We breed for that upright "chess piece" head and neck carriage. It is one of the things that our horses must have. You could never ever ever make a breed look like that if they are not built for it. You couldn't ask a QH or a TB to set up like a saddlebred. Likewise, we do get some foals that can't raise up like that. Those horses don't become SS horses. Those become hunters, or western horses, or trail horses. Likewise, if they are not capable of picking their feet up high, we can't make them do it. If they can't do it, they can't do it. No trick in the world will make the ones who cant do it, do it. We had one who could stick his ears in your mouth he was so high headed. That poor guy couldn't pick his feet up to save his life! LOL, he was a sweetheart though and was on his way to being a killer Shatner horse, but died from severe colic before he could be shown.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

So the feet are, primarily to achieve the movement desired in the show ring? 

Are there any examples of horses who are winning with a hoof without the long toe? I have seen examples of champion show horses with just basic shoes on, but still the long toe. I'm not sure I've ever seen an example of one without a lot of toe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Love this little horse. 
daydreamsheadsup


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks, much better than what I'm used to seeing, are any mature horses ? 

(Sorry, I know that's fussy of me, but I cringe over competing 2yr olds undersaddle, in any breed - I know most do it, but still, to be a totally wonderful example to me, the horse would be 5+ years of age....)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Allison Finch said:


> Toto, the SB holds itself "hollow" largely because it is built into their DNA. They hold themselves head high since birth, not because harsh hands and bit make them do it (although some do use those methods).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yuckie! I very much dislike that first horses confo.--I dont understand why someone would breed such an abomination.  Doesnt horrible conformation cause problems latter in life causing pain? im not bashin the breed-- i almost got a saddlebred for jumping.. i hear they excell in the discipline. I just dont like the 'big lick' style-ish thing goin on. I dont know what its called? Padded sb showing? 

I realize the breed has a higher head set but the bad confo is making the back hollow-- or thats how it looks to me-- the second horse isnt very hollow to me?


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Last Unicorn- that is exactly it. The pads/heavier shoes/long toes all alter the way the horse moves. 

It sounds like you have been talking to the same people I have! I also had someone tell me that a Saddlebred needs to have a long toe or else they won't stay sound... Somehow I doubt there is any evidence of that.

I looked but so far I can't find any university studies specifically on Saddlebreds and hoof care. Most studies are on Walkers. Although I have a very strong suspicion if they started testing Saddlebreds with thermography, and X rays, they are going to find some abnormal results! I also think if they did hoof dissections and looked for abnormalities they would find them as well. Of course they would need a control group... IF the ASHA really does not want to be associated with TWH, than they should fund this research (or donate to a university), and consider making revisions in what is allowed in the show ring. I think if they did do a controlled study it would be obvious that increasing the hoof height is detrimental to the horse... 

Here is a ppt on Thermography in TWH's. 
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/downloads/trainers_seminar.pdf

Obviously the Saddlebred people don't want to be associated with the TWH, but as far as I am concerned hoof care is still a horse welfare issue! Soring is another topic and maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the TWH, as people always jump to soring when they think of TWH. 

I'm not trying to bash the industry either. Certainly there are those who don't go to those extremes and who do care about their horses. I just wish the people in the industry weren't so afraid to shake the boat and instead think about what is best for their horse. Of course the traditionalists do not like change, but I would love to see a natural moving saddlebred, instead of the artificially enhanced one... I would love to see these beautiful horses on turnout and not locked in stalls... 

Lady Dreamer- Beautiful horse- that is exactly what I would like to see more of! Although not so young... 

Toto- I doubt that horse would be considered an abomination. Saddlebreds are definitely unique with their very upright head and it does take awhile to get used to their conformation. I think that foal looks so weird partially due to the camera angle (with the rump closer to the camera) and because it is butt high from a recent growth spurt. As for the lordosis issue, I believe it is not something desirable and will be marked down on in conformation classes. 

I'm not sure how well they do for jumping- most of the ones I've seen look weak in the hindquarters, although I did work for someone who showed them in Dressage and did really well.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I would say it was camera angle too-- except that its got enough pastern for 3 horses is severely sickle hocked its neck ties in way too high its got an ewe neck and looks to stand too wide in the hind end. I would not breed this horse.

The second horse looks correct to me-- I like everything about it honestly, lol.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

4horses... I have owned 4 Saddlebreds, 3 currently. Two of those I have owned were not just decent jumpers, but exceptional jumpers.... The breed, as a whole, tends to have conformation which gives them incredible scope and a hindquarter which is very powerful in thrusting power. Those which are well bred tend to have short backs and large pelvic lengths (which most people call "lots of hip"), their natural ability to lift their forehand and use their upright neckset to help clear that front end is not just valued in the Saddleseat ring, but in jumping as well. The breed also seems well known for the range of motion they offer in all their joints... "Articulation of gait" is something that makes these animals mesermizing to watch go.

A little known fact about the breed is that many Saddlebreds and Saddlebred crosses were favored for puissance jumping at one time. Their jumping style can be a little unorthodox, but very effective. They move as if on springs. 

It never stops amazing me how these animals can be trained for Saddleseat and then go into a second career such as jumpers, eventing or dressage and be competitive up to about midlevel (there are a few going top level too) - which means undergoing a complete change in training and conditioning. There is no question this breed is athletic.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

LadyDreamer said:


> *I am not calling anyone morons*(Your words. Not mine.) but there is need to say it. I wouldn't have to say that over and over if every time someone says "Those horrible things that happen to TWHs...AND Saddlebreds." My god. Please tell me why people seem to think the only difference between them are the names.
> 
> The atrocites that happen to TWHs aka "soring" do not happen with Saddlebreds. This does not and cannot happen to any trotting breed. THOSE are the atrocities that I speak of. Those acts no Saddlebred trainer can do. Not because we feel it is wrong and abusive. It is because those things do not work with trotting horses. If we could do it with success, I can guarantee you there would be some that would do it.
> 
> ...


I have bolded the points I want to address. First, I did NOT say you were calling people morons, but you are TREATING us like them if you think we do not know that they are different breeds.

Secondly,many of us are well aware that the breed does not define saddle type. As I have stated, Morgans are treated somewhat the same and are also ridden saddleseat-but a totally different breed. Just an example.

Third-I am not sure that I believe that longer equals wider when it comes to the foot. I would agree that it is a larger base, simply because there is longer toe and more surface area, but that does NOT mean wider. I know when my guys toes are long needing a trim, his feet are not necessarily wider. I do not understand how one equals the other.

I also am not buying what seems to be the underlying mentality of some that the long toes do no damage over time. Sorry-just don't buy it, and won't unless i see some research that has been done. Incorrect angles, over time, change the anatomy.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

My Saddlebred has nice wide big feet, but he is trimmed just as short as my QH's and Paints, and has never taken a lame step. He was however, horrible lame from the shoes and over-long toes that he came to me with.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Sorry if this was answered and I missed it... Are there any mature horses competitive (as in placing) in Saddleseat with a shorter toe, or is it mostly just those young horses?


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

No shortage of abuse in too many breeds.If a lot of this extreme crap wasn't awarded, people wouldn't do it.
I have always wondered why take a spectacular breed and then think you have to work it over for some performance that it was not meant to do? If it so wonderful then leave it alone and let it move as it was bred to.
JMHO


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

DustBunny... An "au natural" Saddlebred can indeed move in a way that makes them suited for Saddleseat, but yes, I have wondered why they aren't just shown that way. 

The Saddlebred is capable of this high action... They are also capable of huge suspension - most of either is brought along with training.

For example, a Saddleseat rider will want to encourage the high knees, and flexed hock along with the high headset which will show off the elevation of the front end. The horses offer this - even when the "gadgets" aren't used. The extra gear comes out in an effort to remain competitive and to help bring horses up to the top levels of the discipline.

A Sport rider will want to encourage the horse to stretch out and low, round the back and push from the hock. There are tools and methods of training to achieve this which are less than pretty too... Draw reins, overflexion, tie downs, lunging rigs etc... Saddlebreds are quite capable and will offer this movement too. 

I don't often keep photos of this guy if he moves like this anymore (I primarily ride dressage, but have spent time jumping and in a western saddle) - if I were on my computer I could likely find more recent shots showing it though...because he can and will do it without prompting, especially if he feels like not putting much effort into moving. With training he could likely be encouraged to get his head higher and his knees higher too, I happen to discourage him from doing it because it is not going to help my goals of making him a dressage horse.



















For contrast... This is the same horse (a couple years older) also offering movement by choice and natural ability... He is just loose in the arena and all I have asked of him is that he move about. 










He says please pardon the mud... The sandy arena was too much temptation and he got good and coated in wet sand right before his photoshoot... But this shot shows both the forward momentum he is capable of, and the suspension. 









So it is not really true that these horses are not meant to move as they do in Saddleseat... They actually are. Their conformation is what exactly allows them to excel at it... It is the same conformation traits which can also help them excel at sport disciplines. The difference is in the conditioning, and the training. 

I think the question that does bear asking is ... Is it really necessary to alter the horse to get the extreme level of motion that is common in the top levels of competition? 

I get it... Those who love Saddleseat get defensive and say "if you don't like it, don't do it"... But that's not really my point either, I don't dislike Saddleseat, exactly, I just wonder if we could maybe see some more progression - break from the tradition a little, for the well being of the horse.... Not doggedly stick to tradition by burying heads in the sand. I actually enjoy how much of the discipline is very traditional... We see much the same attire for horse and rider as was seen at the start... We even see how at the top levels of the sport the horses themselves have not changed that much (yes, some of the modern ASBs have gotten longer, lankier and less correct... But if you look at the best of the best, most of them still demonstrate the traits the breed originally had) 

Science is proving that things we have previously thought were not harmful actually are... This goes in all disciplines (actually life in general... How many parents, until the 90's, smoked in the house or at work without giving it a second thought? Lots. Nowadays, a parent who did this would be looked down on or even verbally taken apart by society), and in recent times we have seen many equestrian sports begin the long road to change in order to make things better for our beloved equine partners. Is there a long way to go? Absolutely! But it won't start if those who love the sport don't begin the change.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

apachiedragon said:


> My Saddlebred has nice wide big feet, but he is trimmed just as short as my QH's and Paints, and has never taken a lame step. He was however, horrible lame from the shoes and over-long toes that he came to me with.


I've seen that too. I've had many ASB's come here for boarding after their show careers. All except 1 has had horrible white line separation on all four feet. It was readily apparent when the shoes were removed.
Most owners were told by the show trainers that they had to have shoes or their feet would fall apart, that part is true but they weren't told why.
With proper care they have great barefoot hooves.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

natisha said:


> I've seen that too. I've had many ASB's come here for boarding after their show careers. All except 1 has had horrible white line separation on all four feet. It was readily apparent when the shoes were removed.
> Most owners were told by the show trainers that they had to have shoes or their feet would fall apart, that part is true but they weren't told why.
> *With proper care they have great barefoot hooves.*




Yes! Horses aint born with metal shoes on. Its what man has done to them-- breeding wise that they 'need' shoes..


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Not all horses can go barefoot. Many can't for a variety of reasons. Another "ugh" comment.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

SEAmom said:


> Not all horses can go barefoot. Many can't for a variety of reasons. Another "ugh" comment.


i wouldnt make a horse go barefoot if they had any kind of conformation or medical issues that needed corrective shoes. i wouldnt shoe one unless it had one of those problems either-- or if they had softer feet.. but you can build them up to be stronger with the proper care (soft feet) also hooves that are dried and cracked can be fixed too. 

you ever see a mustangs feet? A true blue wild mustangs feet? They dont need shod. They also live in the perfect conditions for a horse. If we let our horses run free like that and didnt breed the ones with horrible feet-- theyd look that way too.  only the strong survive-- the horses that needed corrective shoeing wouldnt. Thats why we have the hoof issues we have today-- that and people improperly trimming and putting metal that doesnt have any give to it.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

No, that's true... Some horses can't go barefoot and also be top level competition horses. 

But I think the point that has been brought up here is that many of those SS horses with long toes have retired (many to go onto careers as jumpers, dressage horses, eventers and endurance horses) and been totally sound barefoot without the extra toe length (and this in answer the fact a lot of SS people maintain that Saddlebreds (the breed, not Saddleseat horses) cannot stay sound without all that toe length. ) There are a great many of retired SS horses who are also ridden in shoes, but have the shorter toe (in fact nearly every eventer I know, and most jumpers shoe their horses... It's a traction/safety issue in those sports... So no, absolutely going barefoot won't be for every horse/rider!), But the idea that Saddlebreds need that long toe to stay sound, period, is sort of refuted by the number of sound ones that ride and compete in other disciplines with a normal length of toe.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

SEAmom said:


> Not all horses can go barefoot. Many can't for a variety of reasons. Another "ugh" comment.


Not sure why that was an "ugh" comment. There are very very few hoof issues that require shoes to fix, with all the alternative options out there today. I have know only a small handful that couldn't have been barefoot, and most of those could have been with the use of hoof boots. Nothing ugh about a person not being a fan of shoes.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Oh, dear goodness. All the freaking answers were right next to my pillow this whole time. I don't know why I didn't think to look there despite what Dad told me when he gave me the book. I will quote it soon. 

As for older horses, it is difficult to find good pictures that are not obscured by boots. As I get out and about this year, I will make sure to get some pictures.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> *No, that's true... Some horses can't go barefoot and also be top level competition horses.
> *
> But I think the point that has been brought up here is that many of those SS horses with long toes have retired (many to go onto careers as jumpers, dressage horses, eventers and endurance horses) and been totally sound barefoot without the extra toe length (and this in answer the fact a lot of SS people maintain that Saddlebreds (the breed, not Saddleseat horses) cannot stay sound without all that toe length. ) There are a great many of retired SS horses who are also ridden in shoes, but have the shorter toe (in fact nearly every eventer I know, and most jumpers shoe their horses... It's a traction/safety issue in those sports... So no, absolutely going barefoot won't be for every horse/rider!), But the idea that Saddlebreds need that long toe to stay sound, period, is sort of refuted by the number of sound ones that ride and compete in other disciplines with a normal length of toe.


Some horses can't go barefoot, whether they are in competition or not.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Franknbeans... That is a subject that is still heavily debated... And not really in relation to this topic anyhow. I know a couple barefoot trimmers who have successfully rehabbed horses, barefoot, with issues which have always traditionally been shod to keep them sound. Either way, that isn't really what a number of us have been really talking about here.

My point with that statement was that a lot of these show horses DO stay sound after Saddleseat to perform in other sports, barefoot, or with shoes and a lot less foot than they did when they were doing Saddleseat.

... And thank you Lady Dreamer, I'd appreciate it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Unicorn-you can debate it if you want. I have owned horses that could NOT be without shoes. Period.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I am just on my phone currently, so it is a hassle to post important info relevant to the debate. 

Frank, were those horses lame due to a human screwing them up or "naturally" lame due to environmental factors, or natural illness/lameness progression, or some other factor? I am just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Their feet were genetic. Truly horrible.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I think what unicorn is getting at is not whether or not they need to go barefoot. More that many ss trainers and supporters use the "have to have long toes to stay sound" as an excuse when it is really a load of horse apples. 
Also id like to point out to whomever stated that the longer toe/wider base is complete baloney as well. As a toe elongates especially in a shod horse the heels contract and the hoof becomes more narrow. 

That is all. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Fun fact: Did you know that at bigger Saddlebred shows if a horse loses a shoe during the class the class stops while a farrier replaces it? The class then resumes like nothing happened.
Of course they sometimes pull the horse but usually not.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Umm...what's your point, natisha? What should they do instead? I've watched them do that at many breed AND open shows.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

I think Natisha was just doing a little fun fact moment. 
I've heard of people doing that at AQHA shows before. Not 100% sure though.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

That is the first I have ever heard of anything like that-in fact I remember one throwing a shoe at a reining show last summer.....in the middle of a run. Nothing stopped at all. But then, I have never showed saddleseat or gaited-perhaps it is unique to these?


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> That is the first I have ever heard of anything like that-in fact I remember one throwing a shoe at a reining show last summer.....in the middle of a run. Nothing stopped at all. But then, I have never showed saddleseat or gaited-perhaps it is unique to these?


Just throwing some food for thought...

I'm assuming because reining isn't done with other people in a arena and you and the horse are the only one in the arena at the moment.

When you throw a shoe in the ring with other people then it can become dangerous. Many people may have not seen that you threw a shoe, but thats just my opinion on why.
*
(GRAPHIC IMAGE BELOW)*
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/545577_529487013744307_701555117_n.jpg

I'd say thats why they would stop the class.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I watched it happened in wp, equitation (western and english), english pleasure, park etc. They don't come to a screeching halt. Someone notices, tells the judge or whoever the ring master is, and things go from there. They don't always reshoe right there. That's a case by case basis. Some people do continue without a shoe. Others don't.

AQHAGirl, that's exactly why they do stop the class when it's noticed. Whether to pull the horse or not and reshoe or not is determined by the situation. It can be very dangerous having a loose shoe and nails in the arena.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

apachiedragon said:


> I have know only a small handful that couldn't have been barefoot, and most of those could have been with the use of hoof boots. Nothing ugh about a person not being a fan of shoes.


I guess that comes down to the shoe debate, as I don't consider a horse with boots to be barefoot. For sure, it's an alternative to shoes though. 



Ladydreamer, would you be willing to share pictures of your horses feet?


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> I* think what unicorn is getting at is not whether or not they need to go barefoot. More that many ss trainers and supporters use the "have to have long toes to stay sound" as an excuse when it is really a load of horse apples. *
> Also id like to point out to whomever stated that the longer toe/wider base is complete baloney as well. As a toe elongates especially in a shod horse the heels contract and the hoof becomes more narrow.
> 
> That is all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The part in bold... Yes, that is exactly what I am getting at. I do keep my horses barefoot, because I can... But I have no serious objection to a correctly shod horse as long as the foot itself is healthy. (By healthy I mean the correct length and angle for the horse, the heel is wide, the frog is large and healthy, the sole is solid, there is no stretching of the laminae etc.)


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> I guess that comes down to the shoe debate, as I  don't consider a horse with boots to be barefoot. For sure, it's an alternative to shoes though.


That is a fair assumption. I personally still consider them barefoot if the boots are used for riding but they are not in them 24/7. Then it becomes the same thing, IMO, as sports boots or polo wraps - just another form of protection. I am not anti-shoe by any means, I just don't see the point unless it is truly a necessity. To me (not necessarily to others) the cons outweigh the pros. In addition to added expense, which can be considerable, and this is just an example, when a shod horse throws a shoe there is then the headache of not being able to ride until the farrier is able to come out and reset the shoe. But thankfully these days, more people are making an educated decision to use shoes or not, as opposed to the knee-jerk "the horse is being ridden, so it must have shoes" days of the past.

Didn't mean to derail the thread again, my apologies.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

It is strange, I have been in the Saddlebred world for many many years and I have never heard anyone say that a Saddlebred needs to have a long toe to stay sound. Having a balanced foot, yes. IF the toe is longer on a horse, then the heel must match, whether that is actual heel or wedge pads. The balance of the foot is crucial to stay sound regardless of breed. 

I myself have had many Saddlebreds barefoot over the years. SOME needed shoes in general but many didn't. When showing I opted for shoes. I have never been an advocate for super long feet on any breed. Just not something I like to see. That said, I have ridden/shown other peoples horses that were longer feet. I know of many people that have shown with a longer foot and can't say I have seen much lameness even as the horse got older. 

One Saddlebred I knew of that was navicular had short feet his whole career and showed Country Pleasure and did trail ride as he got older as well. I had several horses that stayed sound well into their late 20's and even 30. I used to trail ride a 34 year old Saddlebred mare that had a long show career in her youth.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Annd my computer cord died(how convenient huh?). I *really* don't like writing books from my phone. I have some book excerpts I will post tonight. I think Inga is from a similar background to me. Me, I am a person who was trained by those who follow more of the "old ways". When it comes down to it, a lot of these bad individuals just need to take a trip back to the 40s and 50s and learn a bit. A lot of people think they have to reinvent the wheel to be as good as Don or Merrill... What they really need to do is just pick up a dang book and call some of the old timers that are still kicking. 

There are two books I am going to quote for you on shoeing and training. One was from the 40s, the other came out last year from a super awesome, super nice trainer who is very successful. 

A good horse to look at with short feet it a freakishly cool SA Stallion named Tomcat. 

Right now, our show horses are still let down for the winter and I am not home(had this bright idea to move closer to my job). When everything gets back swinging for the year, I will see what I can get for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Another point I would have attempted to make in my earlier post (if I wasn't old and forgetful) Is that in all disciplines, there are the "short cut people" that want to get to the finish line first. They will do whatever it takes to get the most out of the horse in the shortest amount of time. There are the people that will take on a client with a mediocre quality horse and tell them how great it is and how THEY can make it a champion. They can put big shoes on and impress the client at what an insane difference they made in the horse's movement. If the person has eyes they might actually see a horse that is simply laboring. 

I have always appreciated a horse that picks their feet up, not one that slams them down. There IS a difference in the movement. One is more natural, obviously. A horse that is over shod, labors in their movement and it is NOT pretty. 

A horse is only as good as the feet it is standing on. Anyone worth their oats won't lame a horse on purpose. It cost the same amount to feed a good quality horse as it does a lessor quality horse. There will always people who purchase a pleasure horse and think that all it takes is some big shoes and long feet to get into the park classes. This generally doesn't work well for the horse or the people. It can be a very costly disappointment.
FACT: There are some people who let their horses feet get too long, put on shoes that are too heavy, train too hard etc.... 
I just don't think anyone should paint everyone in the Saddlebred industry with the same broad brush. It isn't fair.


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

I had wondered when the Morgans were going to get thrown into this debate...

One Morgan trainer does not define all Morgan show barns and I'm shocked that people even lump show Morgans in with the whole TWH scandals.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Is SA Tomcat in big pads/stacks or are his feet really that tall? There is something bugging me about his feet, and can't see a good picture of his feet to tell if it's his foot itself or some kind of big pad on him. To me he looks a bit like he's on stilts...at least in any video of him, and few photos show his feet clearly, I know, I am being a pain in the ***, but I don't call how he's done up "normal looking". He obviously doesn't move unsound, but I question if there is really no difference in the strain on his body with that posture. (I am thinking along the lines of a woman in heels everyday for years... At the time there is no serious discomfort for most, but, it changes the way she walks, stands, and over time has been proven to cause foot problems, leg problems, and back problems). 

Other than that, yes, his foot itself appears better than most of what is published by ASHA and typically seen in articles of winners. From what I can see his toe is a "correct" length and his heel appears wider and in better shape than most I've seen, and I am guessing what I am seeing as a lot of hoof might actually be pads, not his feet.

In regards to our judging "the whole sport by the actions of a few"... Bear in mind, most of what I know is based on ASHA publications. If it really is a case of a few bad eggs why doesn't the breed promotion reflect that?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I think sa tomcats feet look ok. No great pics of them but thats not surprising. I will say that ermergerd hes purrrrty though!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pipilanstrum (Apr 11, 2017)

I was in KY for a while, still with no much experience as a vet, but my sixth sense told me that those horses were in pain...and they were all getting intrarticular injections before the season...so they were not lame because they were getting drugs every 6 months inside the joint....with all the risk that implies. I saw so many bad things doing to those horses to make them compete that I do not agree with this kind of competition as I think is going against horse welfare.


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