# Pi and I went to a Les Vogt Clinic!



## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

For those who don't know Les, he's won the NRCHA Snaffle Bit Futurity twice (so is well known in the cowhorse world) and has numerous AQHA championships under his belt. He has his own training program (as many do) which includes the well thought of Cowhorse U and he also manufactures bits. He has A LOT of knowledge so I was thrilled to be able to take Pi to ride in his clinic last weekend. It was touted as a cow working clinic, which is why I went, but the host didn't get any cattle and the three calves she had were worthless to work, so it was just dry work. That's OK since we need lots of work on our dry work.

There were three of us cow horse people there; one girl shows in the same cowhorse association I do and it was nice to get to know her better. The other girl came from Los Angeles; I had not met her before, but she apparently showed in the same association a few years back. She used to ride hunter/jumpers and got hooked on cowhorses!

The rest of the people were either very beginner riders (Les even had to show one how to properly put the bridle on their horse), advanced beginners or "general trainers" who basically just start horses only. The range of horses were impressive - mustangs, a Tehachapi mountain horse, an arab, a Friesian/Appy X (looked like a smaller lighter boned Friesian, but still pretty big - he dwarf my mini AQHA), and of course QH. Lots of snaffles, but the people had no control or handle over their horses. It was actually a nice group and everyone wanted to learn.

He had the cowhorse people work on stops, lead changes, and spins on both days - lots of different exercises for each. He had the other working on the basics of body control, the foundation of stops, lead changes and spins. He talked about bits at lunch (he knows a lot about bits) and then had us try some bits out. 

Pi's current bridle bit is this, but with chains, not the slobber bar:




















Les put Pi and I in this bit:


















She worked pretty well in it. 









Sunday, he asked if I wanted to move up in bits and I said, "Sure" so he put us in this bit:

























I really liked her in the 2nd bit and Les said he thought that was the best bit for her. But I didn't buy it since I already spent a nice sum for the Cowhorse U Maneuvers Level dvd package (discounted at the clinic, but still a nice amount). I'll talk bits with my local trainer and see what he thinks. One thing Les said was that he uses a different bit to show in than he does to school in. That is different from what I've heard and practice, but thinking about it and seeing how Pi went in these bits, it makes a certain amount of sense. 

Most everyone else tried the bits he suggested for them and most got a nice change with a change of bit (for the most part everyone was pretty light with their hands, even the very beginners). Especially true was for the Friesian appy, who the rider rode in a thick snaffle; can't remember what bit he changed to, but that horse (who apparently had training before he got him) became lighter and more collected after the change of bit. He was magnificent to watch. One person tried a different bit, but didn't really get the concept of working it and went back to her snaffle on the 2nd day. Really though she was getting more done with the suggested bit than her snaffle. 

He was big on prepping and school in the approach to a maneuver and not doing the maneuver ad naseum. I like that approach as well, especially since I tend the rush the approach which affects the quality of the maneuver itself. By the end of the weekend, Les liked how we were going and suggested that we just keep practicing the approach. It was a good clinic and got quite a bit out of it. Would have been a fantastic clinic had we had cows!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Awesome! So jealous...
Too bad you guys didn't have any cattle but still a good clinic to attend 

I've had a couple of bits of his and found them really heavy. Did you find them to be compared to your JWP?


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Both bits were definitely much heavier than my Jeremiah Watt bits. They also have longer cheeks. The 1st bit had 8" cheeks and the 2nd bit 8-1/2" cheeks. I think my JWP bit's cheeks is 7-5/8". The 2nd bit was heavier than the first. Surprisingly Pi did not seem to react adversely to the weight of the bits, but the action. I had to be really light with my hands which was good in many respects.

Yea, us three cowhorse riders came for the cows. We were very disappointed to find there were none. :confused_color: :-( But, yea, need loads of work on the dry work, so it was not a lost weekend.

Les was pretty nice to everyone. I had met him before, at one of our association's shows. I don't think he remembered (which isn't surprising). But he definitely liked us cowhorse girls a lot. LOL ...

I asked him about Reno and he said he wasn't going to Texas. He said alot of the west coast guys would not go to Texas next year and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I guess Ted Robinson and I think he said John Ward were the ones who got Lucas Oil to stay with them in Reno. Les said he asked them what would happen if the NRCHA decided to come back to Reno after the 3 year contract is up and he said they said,"Well, they'll have to find another place cuz they aren't having it there!" Given the way he was talking, I don't think it's a stretch that the up-coming trainers will be in Texas and the older guys will stay in Reno for the most part. He was also saying that it would cost $5-6k for a client to send a colt to Texas. I think he was talking JUST to send them to compete in Texas, not the cost of all the training up to the point of sending them to TX. Ouch!!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

@COWCHICK77, I'm talking with my trainer now about getting this JWP cheek 









I also like this one:









It will not be with the spade mouth, of course (we aren't anywhere near ready to even think about that mouth!). Have not yet decided on which mouth ... a frog Iwhat she has now and is in Les' Bit 1 above)? Or what JWP calls a wide 1/2 breed (which is what is in Les' Bit 2 above):










So fun to bit shop!! :grin:


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Wow. How did I miss this? 

What an awesome opportunity! The same weekend you were at your clinic, I was at a clinic with a much lesser known clinician  He's getting some notoriety in our area with the ranch horse association, but none the less, he was a great clinician. We only had 10 riders for the weekend and like yours, all levels of horsemanship. He was able to dial into every one of us. It was great.

We also had a little "bit segment" during our clinic. My clinician said he preferred a heavy bit because the heavier the bit, the greater the release of pressure, in turn creating clearer cues. He also noted that with a heavy bit, you have to have very educated hands. 

Sounds like you had a wonderful time!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

@jenkat86, it was definitely an great opportunity and I got a lot out of it, even without cows. 

Sounds like your clinic was great, too! Who was your clinician?? Lesser known or not, if the clinician is good, it is well worth the price to attend. What did you do? What did you like working on? Did it fuel the fire to get out there and complete??



> We also had a little "bit segment" during our clinic. My clinician said he preferred a heavy bit because the heavier the bit, the greater the release of pressure, in turn creating clearer cues. He also noted that with a heavy bit, you have to have very educated hands.


 That's an interesting thought and I agree with it. Pi went really well in the heavier bits and I had to really pay attention and lighten my hands up with it. All in all it was a great exercise for the both of us. What bit did your clinician use? Any particular bit or mouthpiece that he recommended?? Anything in the bit talk that makes you consider a different bit? I never thought I would be at a level that I would be considering bits like I used in the Les clinic, but it is really exciting, LOL ...


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

kewpalace said:


> @jenkat86, it was definitely an great opportunity and I got a lot out of it, even without cows.


Like you, we were supposed to have cows also, but it didn't happen. We were able to do some flag work...



kewpalace said:


> Sounds like your clinic was great, too! Who was your clinician?? Lesser known or not, if the clinician is good, it is well worth the price to attend. What did you do? What did you like working on? Did it fuel the fire to get out there and complete??


His name is Steve Lantvit. His farm is a few hours north of me, and he competes in the same ranch horse association that we do. He also dabbles in cutting and reined cow horse. He's got a show on RDFTV...actually comes on tonight, I believe! 

It was a bit nerve-wracking at first. He had us all line up and had us walk/trot/lope each direction, by ourselves. It was a GREAT ice breaker and he was able to quickly narrow into what experience we had, what our weaknesses are and also allowed him to critique our horses. We had all levels of experience there- a green rider that purchased a green horse just days prior, to high level cutters wanting to get into reined cow work. 

He touched on saddle fit, and of course bits. He helped a lot of us with finding the release of pressure and helped us find REAL collection, not just a dropped head. We did several exercises involving rollbacks, stops, pivots and counter bending. One of my favorites was starting in the center of the arena and loping to the left, then halt, rollback, and lope off to the left again. We did that each direction and after a few times, we started nailing our rollbacks. I was horrible at "pulling" my mare into it instead of "pushing." Once I figured out the difference- wow. So much better. I always have a problem loping to the right, spins to the right...you name it, to the right I struggle. He immediately saw that it's because I lean to the left all the time. 

He also rode our horses. It was incredible to see what they were able to do. I had NO IDEA my horse could be so elegant! 

It was a huge confidence builder for me. I am my harshest critic and it causes me to talk myself out of a lot. He let me know that there was no reason I shouldn't be showing right now. (He's also a judge so that perspective was great!) He really encouraged me to get out there and do it. He was pretty confident that my mare and I could be successful. So it absolutely re-lit the fire and drive.




kewpalace said:


> What bit did your clinician use?


He was actually using a Les Vogt bit! It looked very much like the first bit you posted. It had 7" shanks though. He actually just recently started selling bits and I forget who he said manufactures them...but they were basic ported mouth bits with long shanks. No frills. 



kewpalace said:


> Any particular bit or mouthpiece that he recommended?? Anything in the bit talk that makes you consider a different bit? I never thought I would be at a level that I would be considering bits like I used in the Les clinic, but it is really exciting, LOL ...


This is very similar to the bit I currently use 








Mine has a sweet iron mouthpiece with aluminum shanks. He showed me how to see if a bit was "balanced" and mine was not. Also, Coco is pretty straight and stiff, doesn't have a lot of wiggle, so he put me in a Hobbs correction bit-








She responded really well it that- it was much heavier than my aluminum shanked one, and I got almost instant responses to my cues. I really liked it. She gathered herself up really well with it, and she quit dropping that dang shoulder!

He did say that the style of bit I was using is good, and she responded relatively well in it, but he would go heavier and of course, make sure it's balanced. He also preferred hinged cheek pieces- not fixed. I can't remember his exact reasoning behind it, but it related to the release of pressure, like the weight.

It made me feel better because when my trainer suggested I start using that bit, I was pretty hesitant. It seemed like it was too much. But I got a good little education about it and feel much better about it. 

What were some of your favorite exercises from your clinic?


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

jenkat86 said:


> Like you, we were supposed to have cows also, but it didn't happen. We were able to do some flag work...


That's great that you at least got flag work. We could only do dry work, but, as said, I need as much help as I can get for that, so was OK with it. 



jenkat86 said:


> His name is Steve Lantvit. He competes in the same ranch horse association that we do. He also dabbles in cutting and reined cow horse. He's got a show on RDFTV...actually comes on tonight, I believe!


Excellent! I will have to try to catch him tonight!



jenkat86 said:


> It was a bit nerve-wracking at first. He had us all line up and had us walk/trot/lope each direction, by ourselves. It was a GREAT ice breaker and he was able to quickly narrow into what experience we had, what our weaknesses are and also allowed him to critique our horses.


I hear you! Les would pull us three cowhorse people out and then send us out to do what ever by ourselves. I'm used to being out there all by my lonesome for critiquing, but it's still nerve wracking! Pi was really good for the most part, especially in the lead changes - she has a habit of kicking up, but using his one exercise for lead changes for horses who know how to change (keeping both legs in the horse and then release the leg for the lead you want the horse to take), she did really well and didn't kick up. He had no suggestions for us for that, LOL.

The assessment by the clinician (by watching the riders individually) is one thing I learned from all the NSHA clinics I did. Yea, any good horseman can tell the level of rider/horse by watching them. I never argue with a clinician or make any excuses for our performance since I know they typically know WAY more than I do and can see WAY more than I am feeling, and if I just take what ever they are telling me and try their exercises 99% of the time I find it works for me. 



jenkat86 said:


> I was horrible at "pulling" my mare into it instead of "pushing." Once I figured out the difference- wow. So much better.


 LOVE the lightbulb moments! There really make us feel great and lets us see the possibilities! WooHoo!!



jenkat86 said:


> He also rode our horses. It was incredible to see what they were able to do. I had NO IDEA my horse could be so elegant!


I LOVE when trainers do this! My local trainer does this often, so after riding with him for 13+ years, I've seen him do it a lot with many different horses (including mine). I definitely agree that it really lets you see your horse in a whole different light and how much your horse is capable of if ridden correctly. Again, a moment where the possibilities are revealed and (at least for me) what can be accomplished with my dedication to improvement.



jenkat86 said:


> It was a huge confidence builder for me. I am my harshest critic and it causes me to talk myself out of a lot. He let me know that there was no reason I shouldn't be showing right now. (He's also a judge so that perspective was great!) He really encouraged me to get out there and do it. He was pretty confident that my mare and I could be successful. So it absolutely re-lit the fire and drive.


Excellent! Glad it was a great experience for you and fueled your fire! Will look forward to your show pix from next year!!




jenkat86 said:


> He was actually using a Les Vogt bit!


 LOL! 





jenkat86 said:


> Mine has a sweet iron mouthpiece with aluminum shanks. He showed me how to see if a bit was "balanced" and mine was not.


Those aluminum shanks bits are very light for sure! But nothing really wrong with them. If you wanted to change (and to show in a cow horse show you would have to have a roller/cricket in your mouthpiece), you might check out Les' bits. They are actually pretty reasonable. 



jenkat86 said:


> She responded really well it that- it was much heavier than my aluminum shanked one, and I got almost instant responses to my cues. I really liked it. She gathered herself up really well with it, and she quit dropping that dang shoulder!


 LOL, sounds like my Pi in the Les bit!! It's great, eh? Kind of stoked me up for sure!



jenkat86 said:


> What were some of your favorite exercises from your clinic?


One of the best I think was his sequence stops, which preps for doing sliding stops 




Then when you actually do a rundown for a sliding stop, you don't collect up but the horse holds his position and stops, as Les describes, like a speed boat stopping - butt down and shoulders elevated. I've been practicing the sequences stops alot since the clinic.

Most of the other things he has us (the cowhorse people) do, were practicing the approach to the maneuvers. Once we got the_ approach_ better, the maneuvers would improve. So a big one for us was the spins - start by walking out two steps and starting SLOW into the spin and once you get about three steps in, then ask for speed. Pi tends to throw herself at the get-go into the spin (yea, I allowed it), and it looked sloppy and flat. Once we slow the approach down, she looks pretty and correct. Too much FUN!

We have a two day show this weekend, so I'm anxious to see how some of things we learned translates to the show pen!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Some Les' bit talk is in this video:






And here's a "chart" explaining his "performax bits" and the mouthpieces.


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

That's a great video! 

I think overall, he got us to understand how each part of the horse moves, and why, and how to make it all work together. Total body awareness for the horse and rider.

Definitely fill us in on this weekends show! Give us lots of pictures too! And of course...good luck!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Body awareness alone is worth the price of admission. :thumbsup:

Don't know that I'll get any pix ... its in a covered arena and weather is supposed to be dark so will be extra dark in there.  But will post some of the pro pix when he puts them up. He's gotten some good ones of this year and likes Pi, so hoping to see some good ones for this show.

This is also a Saddle/Buckle competition too, so they take the highest cow scores from each class averaged over the two days and for fencers, they work a cow on the fence for the chance to win a saddle and for us boxers we box a cow for the chance to win a buckle. We were in it last year; didn't win but it was fun. Hoping to make it this year as well!


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