# Jumping a horse at 3/4 years old



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Block them ;-)


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## randomequine (Nov 19, 2010)

As annoying and awful as it is, I wouldn't say anything -- it's their horses, their money, and their BIG mistake. Then again, perhaps nothing bad will happen. But it's not your horse. I don't agree with it, but there really isn't anything you can do, sadly


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## Sophie19 (Apr 13, 2009)

Unfortunately there isn't much else you can do besides voicing your opinion. Sad.


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## cosmomomo (Aug 10, 2010)

I hate to tell you, but sometimes you gotta let things go. There is a girl that I used to ride with and she does the exact same things to her horses and more.
(It's why I don't ride with her anymore) When you say 3/4 do you mean 3 or 4 years old? J/W. It is such a shame to see such potential be run into the ground like that, this is why I have been extra careful with my guy and he is now 7 and just starting 2'6". I want him to be able to do his job for a good long time. I think I would still bring it up to your trainer, you can even ask a vet, it is unhealthy for their developing joints and back. Maybe do a little research of your own if you need backup, and print some stuff out from reputable sources just in case they really don't believe you. They may not care and keep doing it, but at least you can feel like you've tried.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

cosmomomo said:


> I hate to tell you, but sometimes you gotta let things go. There is a girl that I used to ride with and she does the exact same things to her horses and more.
> (It's why I don't ride with her anymore) When you say 3/4 do you mean 3 or 4 years old? J/W. It is such a shame to see such potential be run into the ground like that, this is why I have been extra careful with my guy and he is now 7 and just starting 2'6". I want him to be able to do his job for a good long time. I think I would still bring it up to your trainer, you can even ask a vet, it is unhealthy for their developing joints and back. Maybe do a little research of your own if you need backup, and print some stuff out from reputable sources just in case they really don't believe you. They may not care and keep doing it, but at least you can feel like you've tried.


I just feel bad for the horse. Like I stated he has a lot of potential so it's sad to see them ruining him like that. Gorgeous horse too. As far as i've known he is 3 years old but, they keep saying he's 3 but, than they are like oh he's 3 and a couple of months, than he's 4 and a couple of months and than he's just about 5. My trainer told me he's 3 but, I was kinda going by what they were posting.


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

At the end of the day, there's nothing you can do.

I know a girl who bought a 4 year old Warmblood last spring. Last summer she started competing him over fences, it started at 2'6 but by the end of the summer she was competing him 3'6 and almost every or every-other weekend. I feel bad for the horse, but he's her horse not mine.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

Carleen I truly do respect that. I was just hoping to get through to them. Sadly it's not those girls horse it's my trainer and honestly as a trainer you would think she would know it's not right to be jumping a 3 year old horse. He might be okay and for their sake I hope he doesn't end up lame but, I don't think they made the right decision


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

It's actually very common practice, part of the reason many hunter and jumpers are put on joint medicine and get their legs injected. Just like when people start there horses as yearling it's to be competitive in the show ring at 5 and 6. I'm for 3' at 4 year old, as I don't think that's a substantially high jump, but 3 years old it's a little early.

Full horse bone fusion in most breeds is done by by 6 (younger for most pony breed, some are typically done by 4), with the last of them being the spinal column at 5 1/2 for mares and 6 for males. By 4 I think horses are ready for full work, because their legs are done, including the hock, which is one of the last bones. I'm not saying they are ready for grand prix jumping or advanced dressage trainer, but I think they are fine to jump 3' or so (although, jump height will differ depending on the horse. My trainer's 3 year old horse "jumps" 2'6" in that he takes a big canter stride over it. He's 16.3 hh)

By 3 a lot of important bones are not finished, and can cause very bad, long term damage, which may not be apparent immediately. The humerus, tibia, and femur would just be fusing now, and the pelvis and hocks won't even start until late into the 3rd to be finished by about 4.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

Supermane said:


> It's actually very common practice, part of the reason many hunter and jumpers are put on joint medicine and get their legs injected. Just like when people start there horses as yearling it's to be competitive in the show ring at 5 and 6. I'm for 3' at 4 year old, as I don't think that's a substantially high jump, but 3 years old it's a little early.
> 
> Full horse bone fusion in most breeds is done by by 6 (younger for most pony breed, some are typically done by 4), with the last of them being the spinal column at 5 1/2 for mares and 6 for males. By 4 I think horses are ready for full work, because their legs are done, including the hock, which is one of the last bones. I'm not saying they are ready for grand prix jumping or advanced dressage trainer, but I think they are fine to jump 3' or so (although, jump height will differ depending on the horse. My trainer's 3 year old horse "jumps" 2'6" in that he takes a big canter stride over it. He's 16.3 hh)
> 
> By 3 a lot of important bones are not finished, and can cause very bad, long term damage, which may not be apparent immediately. The humerus, tibia, and femur would just be fusing now, and the pelvis and hocks won't even start until late into the 3rd to be finished by about 4.


Supermane first of all I want to tell you that your avatar is really cute!! :] It had a jump in front of it though so it looked like a 3 foot whatever jump with a little cavaletti thing in front of it. Sorry I can't come up with the names for it right now. 
So, it was a high jump. I'm okay with little cavalettis, starting him over ground poles, maybe if he's okay with it cross rails but, a 3 foot whatever jump? I don't know.

I don't mean to cause a whole big thing I just wanted to voice my opinions and see what others think. So I hope no one will think I am trying to start a whole big thing.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

beauforever23 said:


> Carleen I truly do respect that. I was just hoping to get through to them. Sadly it's not those girls horse it's my trainer and honestly as a trainer you would think she would know it's not right to be jumping a 3 year old horse. He might be okay and for their sake I hope he doesn't end up lame but, I don't think they made the right decision


If it's the trainer's horse and the trainer is there when they are jumping him, I think you are stuck. Obviously the trainer feels there is nothing wrong with stressing the young horse like that, so there is no way the kids riding him are going to think any differently...remember who's horse it is, and what kind of authority she has as the trainer; regardless of how you feel about it, it is HER say what happens to HER horse. 

I have a friend who ruined a gelding's fetlocks/ankles by running him all out as a two year old in gaming events; he stretched the tendons so that his fetlock touches the ground practically, even at a walk. She regrets it now, but back when she was younger, and her trainer told her it was okay to run him that hard, that young? Nope...didn't see anything wrong with that, because the trainer is supposed to know what is right and wrong, right? :shock::roll:


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

mom2pride said:


> If it's the trainer's horse and the trainer is there when they are jumping him, I think you are stuck. Obviously the trainer feels there is nothing wrong with stressing the young horse like that, so there is no way the kids riding him are going to think any differently...remember who's horse it is, and what kind of authority she has as the trainer; regardless of how you feel about it, it is HER say what happens to HER horse.
> 
> I have a friend who ruined a gelding's fetlocks/ankles by running him all out as a two year old in gaming events; he stretched the tendons so that his fetlock touches the ground practically, even at a walk. She regrets it now, but back when she was younger, and her trainer told her it was okay to run him that hard, that young? Nope...didn't see anything wrong with that, because the trainer is supposed to know what is right and wrong, right? :shock::roll:


I totally agree. I really wish I could do something about it but, it's out of my hands but, yes it is her say and it is her horse being a trainer I seriously thought she would have a better judgement on jumping him like that. I'm sure you all understand my take in it.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

They shouldn't be jumping him at ALL at 3/4 years old. You need to send these two article links to those girls AND your trainer. I'd be looking for another trainer as well... I won't support someone so willing to lame a young horse.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
And They Call Us Horse Lovers - Articles

Another good one:
http://www.equinestudies.org/fostering_long_life/on_fostering_long_life_pdf.pdf

I won't jump a horse with a rider until after their 5th birthday, no matter their potential or ability. I will free jump a horse a little at 3yrs old and some at 4, just to get them used to the fences and to see what they may be capable of, but I do not believe in riding a horse over fences until after the growth plates in their hocks close at 4.5-5.5 yrs old.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> They shouldn't be jumping him at ALL at 3/4 years old. You need to send these two article links to those girls AND your trainer. I'd be looking for another trainer as well... I won't support someone so willing to lame a young horse.
> 
> http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
> And They Call Us Horse Lovers - Articles
> ...


luvs2ride1979 thank you for those sites i will most definitely be sending them to those girls and my trainer. I don't know if there is anything else I can do besides send the articles to them or is there? Probably not, right?


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

beauforever23 said:


> luvs2ride1979 thank you for those sites i will most definitely be sending them to those girls and my trainer. I don't know if there is anything else I can do besides send the articles to them or is there? Probably not, right?


No, there's not, except make your opinion known by taking your business elswhere. At least not train with her anymore, and if she runs/owns the barn, start looking for a new place to board.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

Nope, she thank god does not run the barn I'm at. She's just my trainer but, I do think that in taking my business elsewhere will get the point across. I guess you could say that. It's her loss!


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## cloudkisser (Jul 19, 2010)

OP any way you can post a link to that youtube video? Would like to see it. Maybe we can all leave comments so your not the only one sticking up for the baby.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

I would gladly if it was on youtube but, it's on face book and their profiles are private I've had many of my friends want to do the same thing and I gave them the link to the video off of their face book and it wouldn't let them do it.  

I am still very mad at the girls though and as much as I know I can't do anything I really want to!


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

Yeah I just tried to get a hold of the video off another one of my face books and it wouldn't let me b/c their profiles are private  sorry guys


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Unfortunately I agree that its the trainers say, and some trainers really see no wrong in doing that. There's a trainer in my area who has 3, 4, and 5 year old horses for sale, and most of them she says are competitive at 3' -3'6", at that age. She also has some really nice looking horses, but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Same trainer also tried to sell me a horse years ago when I got my Thoroughbred, that when vet checked came up a grade 3 lameness in 3 legs, and she tried to pan it off as oh she must have banged her legs overnight. One leg, maybe, but 3 of them, no way. She actually got mad at my dad (I wasn't there), when he declined to buy the horse because of the vet check, and wasn't willing to spend the extra money to get x-rays. Every time I see her ads, I feel so bad for the horses, and hope that maybe one or two of them will at least get a home where the owners aren't going to continue jumping them at that height, and will let them grow a little bit more.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

No, I totally agree with you dressagebelle but, as a trainer she shouldn't let her students do that when she knows well enough that he's a young horse who hasn't fully matured. I most certainly wouldn't. Maybe free lunge, maybe cavalettis, maybe cross rail but, I wouldn't even do that until 5 1/2. 

I knew my trainer to be professional about things but, she just lost all my respect for that.


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

I know people have strong opinions about when is to young and what too much too soon means, but not all horses that are started young will be totally crippled. If that where the case than all OTTB would be unsuitable for hard work later in life. It's a huge risk factor, of course, but it's not the only thing. Bad conformation mixed with too much too soon is usually the biggest problem. I think it's just as risky to jump an older horse with bad legs than to jump a young horse with good, clean legs. People don't usually think about it, but the amount of stress put on a horse that is over the knee is just as bad and can cause very similar damage.

I'm not advocating starting horses off really young, but I really don't think it's even worth it to just tell people that what they are doing is detrimental and going to wreck their horses; it's counter productive and people just get defensive and totally ignore you. I'm glad that the video couldn't be posted, because that's a sure way for them to get negative, nonconstructive feedback, pull their video, and then ignore any good information that was given. 

The most important thing is to give them the information so that they can read it and decide for themselves. It's really the only way to get people to change their minds.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Jumping and Galloping are different, and so is the weight of most jockies or exercise riders and most non-racing trainers/riders. Also, most racing trainers understand a horse's physiology and maturation process. If you breeze a young horse properly, you can actually strengthen the bones and tendons as they develop. However, even in racing that is not always done. How many OTTB's REALLY go on to do heavy riding or jumping? What percentage? Realistically, I would estimate no more than 15-20%. 

A horse's hocks are not closed until 4.5-5.5 years old, the later age for geldings that will mature over 16h. Yes, the growth plates in taller geldings take *longer* to close than smaller horses or mares. It doesn't matter how mature the horse looks, how nicely they jump, or how the horse is brought along in their training, NO 3yr old or 4yr old horse is physically ready for jumping training under saddle, ESPECIALLY at the sizable hieght of 3'. Maybe starting a few small cross rails with a light rider at 4 yrs old, no more than once or twice a week tops, but certainly no more and no higher than that.

No, not every horse will be crippled, but how many will need joint supplements or injections by the time they're 10-12 years old? How many will start to show signs of arthritis before the age of 15? That is NOT normal. A horse should be jumping sound until their late teens or early 20s, at least at moderate hieghts (2'6"-3'6"). Big Ben was showing Grand Prix at 18 and was only retired due to fear of colic from road travel. One Arabian gelding in California I read about a year or so ago was taught to jump at 17 and was competing at the 4-4'6" level at 19. These horses should not be the exception.

The reason most vets turn a blind eye to these issue is money. They don't want to lose their clients or make a bad name for themselves, so they don't speak up when these things happen. Trainers make the excuses that it's common place, not all horses will be effectied negatively, or they just don't think about it. Trainers want to make money and turning a horse over quicker is more profitable. The horses "seem fine," so why do otherwise? 

IMO, it's not worth risking a young horse's long-term soundness with jumping training before 5yrs old. There is a lot of flat work and Dressage that can be done early; conditioning on the trail to build strength, balance, and stamina; trot poles and low caveletties to build confidence and balance; etc. Low gridwork can be started late in the horse's 4 yr old year. *Why* rush a horse to jump and jump big? There's just no good reason to do it, and many, many good reasons to wait. Read the links I posted. Both were written by well respected vets.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

^^ but who knows what "normal" is ? horses in the wild usually die by the time they are seven, so we dont really have anything to compare to so we can consider something as "normal." people have such an impact on their bodies in so many different ways, its hard to say that what is normal for one horse is normal for another.

my gelding with decent confo has been jumping (and eventing) since he was 4, hes now 22, still jumping, and has never had his hocks done. ive also taken good care of his legs after jumping. i see no problem with jumping a 4yo over small jumps, as long as you dont jump them too long or hard (YOU should know your horse) and you take care of their legs (icing, hosing, walking etc).


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

^^You are lucky with with your gelding and I am very glad to hear it. I am sure there are others with similar stories as well. But are these few stories worth risking it?

It's not opinion, it's fact. A horse's hocks don't close until 4.5-5.5 yrs old. Jumping or doing anything overly stressfull (like barrel racing, cutting, reining, endurance racing, hard driving/pulling work, etc.) before those hocks are fully closed has a high likelyhood of being detrimental to the horse's long term soundness. You don't really know your horse's readiness without x-rays.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

so which do you think is more important, age or the conformation of the hock ?

i will not base my opinions on facts from people i dont know/trust (no offense whatsoever and this is not aimed at you) but people used to be sure the earth was flat.

also, doesnt the hock fuse by 3-3.5 ??


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

I honestly think both confirmation of the hock and age play a huge role. I still think it's not right to be pushing a 3/4 year old to be jumping such a height like that. I mean my horse personally I had him vetted out on how high I could jump him or even if I could jump him he's at least 20 now from what the vet is concerned although looks younger and he took xrays to confirm that he can jump but, probably wouldn't be suitable for more than 2'3. 

But, I don't play on jumping him anytime soon. Plus on a young horse to be jumping that high at such a young age when they come down from that jump it's putting a lot of pressure on their front hoofs. I've worked with the horse and he doesn't even has his footing right to be jumping let alone with a 15 year old know it all on his back. I know for a fact stated from my trainer herself that she never had x rays done on this horse she checked his teeth to see how old he was and she said he's fine for jumping. How do you know whether the horse is fine? He could be in pain and not show it right now? I mean, am I right? 

The horse doesn't even have the muscling or weight to support him to go over a jump. Not even a cross rail or cavaletti. In where luvs2ride1979 points out in her previous post in taller horses the growth plates take longer to close and he's a tall horse and i'm sure he's not done growing. He's at least close to 17hh. It's her horse but, I still believe it shouldn't be done.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

gypsygirl said:


> so which do you think is more important, age or the conformation of the hock ?
> 
> i will not base my opinions on facts from people i dont know/trust (no offense whatsoever and this is not aimed at you) but people used to be sure the earth was flat.
> 
> also, doesnt the hock fuse by 3-3.5 ??


The hock growth plates close between 4.5 and 5.5 years old. Check those links I posted.

Of course the conformation of the horse is important as is its natural ability. But that doesn't come before the horse's bone maturity. A horse well conformed to jumping and with natural athletic ability is probably less likely to have adverse effects from jumping early, if taken slowly and built up, but there is still a chance of negatively effecting the horse's long-term soundness. Why would you want to ruin a horse that has good potential?


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i read one and if im understanding it right it said between 3 and 3.5...... i have my own vets who know my horse and what i do with her (i actually board with my main LA vet) and she thinks the pace i am taking with my nearly 5yo is correct for her age. which is light jumping - not even once per week over small fences.


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## beauforever23 (May 6, 2010)

I believe that jumping a horse lightly sure but, I wouldnt do more than little cross rails. I mean they were doing 3 foot jumps.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

My mare was coursing 3'3 when she was 4... IJF standards. Thats how all/most of the grand prix horses are started and they come out fine lol. She was in a nice training barn with people that knew what they were doing, they were turing out grand prix prospects like her and is was working for them!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I also think it depends on the horses training and balance. If you have a 4yo who can't get off its forehand or lope a circle you shouldn't be jumping it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

gypsygirl said:


> i read one and if im understanding it right it said between 3 and 3.5...... i have my own vets who know my horse and what i do with her (i actually board with my main LA vet) and she thinks the pace i am taking with my nearly 5yo is correct for her age. which is light jumping - not even once per week over small fences.


You're right, I remembered that wrong. So, for a tall gelding (maturing over 16 h), the hocks would close closer to 4 yrs old. The pelvis stops growing at 5-5.5 yrs old, and the large bones in the base of the neck are the last to close at 5.5 to 6 yrs old.


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## eccodecco (Dec 10, 2010)

3ft is too big since his body isn't fully matured but unfortunately there isn't anything you can do. He has no legal tie to you so I wouldn't even know a legal proceding


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