# Are these bay horses or are they actually brown?



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I always thought I understood the difference of a bay and brown. Lately though, I have been seeing many horses that I would call bay that are being termed as brown. I am very open minded and have learned many things and want to know what the difference is. I will share with you pictures of all the horses that I know their genetic history since we bred and raised them.

First up is the first bay I know very well, she is a sweet and spicy 24 years old now. My mom's second in command and herd matriarch (they all follow her even if she isn't the official "boss").























Princess's genetic background, her sire was Ee aa, her dam was ee A? (dam's full sister is Ee aa)

Is she a bay or a brown? 


Now we have Diga on the left and Katie on the right. I have always called Diga and Katie bays as well








Katie as a teenager below







Katie is Princess's only child. Princess is Ee Aa, she was bred to a stallion that was EE aa

Is Katie technically a bay or is she a brown?


Here is now Diga as a 9 year old 














His dam was ee Aa and his sire was EE aa (same sire as Katie)

Is Diga a bay or a brown?


As a bonus, this is Cocoa. I actually don't know her exact genetics, and my mom couldn't get her registered with AQHA because of a problem with the "original owner" not signing or even having been a recorded owner of the dam and then having a bad address so AQHA couldn't contact him :evil: 
She is in the foreground as a 2 year old with Princess in focus







Summer coat as a 9 year old below 
















Is Cocoa a bay or a brown?


I always thought these were bays, so please correct me kindly if I am wrong :lol:


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I believe they are all browns. 
They all have the signature "mealy" or lighter muzzle, which I've always been told equates to brown, even though they have the darker points on their legs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

So, with genetic testing, would the Arabian Horse Association have to add brown as a color for a pure bred? They only list black, bay, chestnut and grey as color choices for registration and Diga's agouti gene came from none other than a gorgeous arabian grandmother.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

the only one that seems like bay would be appropriate for is diga, imo.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Just along the lines that I was of the belief that purebred arabians are never brown, here is my cousin's registered purebred arabian gelding







He has a mealy colored muzzle as well but has all the other black points to make a bay.









^^This is what I have always thought of with a brown. Black body with a lighter colored muzzle and flank. While a bay could be quite dark, they had red colored highlights throughout their main body.

Should I get Princess tested (steal some hairs while I am home in June) for the agouti gene to find out what kind of agouti she actually has?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

And Princess's dam is by a purebred arabian chestnut stallion and a solid black based grey mare of an unregistered mix of arabian and saddlebred


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If you are going to test you have to send it to PetDNA. They are the only ones who test fro brown.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> If you are going to test you have to send it to PetDNA. They are the only ones who test fro brown.


That is good to know. Since if Princess is indeed a bay and not a brown, then her daughter Katie is also a bay. Now to steal hair from Princess in June :twisted::lol:


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

I was always told that Bays have the dark points...legs, mane and tail. Browns may have the black mane and tail but they are usually missing the black legs. A dark bay has the darker coat, I rfer to it as a "police horse" coat, with the black points though if the coat is very dark the black points may be difficult to distinguish.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Brown is caused by another form of agouti, which is a gene that restricts black. In bay horses, the black is restricted to legs, mane, tail, ears, and nose. In brown horses, the agouti gene only lightens the soft points of the body, like the muzzle, elbow, and flank. So browns can and do have black legs.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyDraco - I am of the firm belief that brown does exist in Arabians. They are my first love lol. However, the registry probably won't change their regulations - registries are slow like that.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

How many horses have had their agouti tested that looked like Princess or Diga? Did they come back with brown or bay results? I may have to rip out some of Princess's hair if no one else has tested one like her, just to satify my curiousity :wink:


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Go for it!! 
I'm so curious! Rick is the lighter shade of bay like yours, more golden bay with light colored flanks, between his rear, under his belly and slightly on his nose and around his eyes. 
Diga, the darker one right (I'm on my phone) is for sure a brown to me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> Diga, the darker one right (I'm on my phone) is for sure a brown to me!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The one on the right (in the picture of the two foals) is Katie, Princess's daughter. Her sire is a homozygous solid black stallion, so the agouti has to come from Princess. We had registered Katie as a black bay half arab. She is a mahogany color in her summer coat and very dark in her winter coat


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Diga looks bay and the rest are brown IMO.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry Cocoa was the one I thought for sure was a brown, and possibly Katie. 
All beautiful!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My first horse was a registered Arabian gelding. People on here have told me he was brown. I always thought of him as a dark bay, before I knew "brown" was a color. :lol:

He turned almost black in the winter, and was a dark, sooty looking "bay" in the summer.

So, I'm assuming it is in the Arabian breed.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm about to reveal huge, uncharted depths of ignorance here, but I always thought that black ear-edges were the way to tell if you'd got a bay or a brown with black points... 

Sigh. Apparently I have more to learn than I thought.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Browns and bays can both have black on all their points. The things you look for are the paler "soft" parts - the flank, muzzle, and often just behind the eye. These are areas that would be the last to bleach if it was sun fading causing it. Another thing to look for is huge changes from season to season - browns tend to change very dramatically from summer to winter, while bays don't change as much. If you have foal pictures there are also indicators in a foal coat that point to brown rather than bay - a brown foal will usually have a lot of "sootiness" along their top line, and be very dark along their crest area. They will also usually have more of the pale sooty colour on their legs that bay foals have - this becomes black as they shed - and it will often extend above the hocks/knees on brown foals.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

So, Chilaa but also everyone else who clearly knows more than me, would the first horse on this page be a bay or a brown, then?

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/show-your-bay-brown-horses-119762/page3/


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I want to say brown looking at her. The way the darker colour tends to run up her neck makes me think it's not sooty, but brown. However, none of the shots are great for telling really - summer is when browns look most like bay lol. What does she look like in winter?


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> I want to say brown looking at her. The way the darker colour tends to run up her neck makes me think it's not sooty, but brown. However, none of the shots are great for telling really - summer is when browns look most like bay lol. What does she look like in winter?


Dunno, lol. Haven't had her for long enough. It's getting towards winter in Chile now, I'll try and get a photo. There's something else - can pregnancy hormones change a horse's colour too?


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Here are some winter photos. So, bay or brown? 

Nice brown muzzle:









Sunlight coming from behind her so a bit distracting:









Busy eating for two:









The last photo does show some lightening around the flank but she's not radically different from her summer look. So, what do you all think?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown, definitely


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks! We love her whatever colour she is - and now we get to wait to see what colour her foal is, and therefore guess at who the stud might have been...


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

I would call that last one a bay. In the rest of the pics I see maybe three browns.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Registries are notoriously behind science for colors. AFAIK, the difference between the "bay" (A) and "brown" (At) agouti genes is a relatively recent discovery. 

It also makes a difference if the horse has one or two copies of At, with the horse being darker with only one (At/a) vs. two (At/At). At is also recessive to A, so a horse that is (At/A) will be bay, not brown.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Registries are notoriously behind science for colors. AFAIK, the difference between the "bay" (A) and "brown" (At) agouti genes is a relatively recent discovery.
> 
> It also makes a difference if the horse has one or two copies of At, with the horse being darker with only one (At/a) vs. two (At/At). At is also recessive to A, so a horse that is (At/A) will be bay, not brown.


That is interesting, but I know that the first three I posted can only have one agouti since the sires were solid blacks. So Princess's very dark daughter was by a homozygous solid black. Unless a horse can pass on more than one agouti (coming from Princess who would have had to received two agouti from her chestnut dam), Katie only has one agouti and is very dark in color. Princess, Katie and Diga can only have received agouti from their dam because solid black stallions cannot be agouti carriers


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> That is interesting, but I know that the first three I posted can only have one agouti since the sires were solid blacks. So Princess's very dark daughter was by a homozygous solid black. Unless a horse can pass on more than one agouti (coming from Princess who would have had to received two agouti from her chestnut dam), Katie only has one agouti and is very dark in color. Princess, Katie and Diga can only have received agouti from their dam because solid black stallions cannot be agouti carriers


That's correct. Agouti limits the expression of black, so with only one Agouti (at least with brown/At), they would be darker than with two. I'm not sure if they same effect holds true for the bay agouti.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The correlation between AtAt being lighter and Ata being darker was a trend, not a rule SunnyDraco


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> The correlation between AtAt being lighter and Ata being darker was a trend, not a rule SunnyDraco


Yes, there's always the qualifier than the same set of testable color genes on two different horses are always affected by other genes which we don't fully understand yet


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Yeah, I was thrown off because I had not heard that before and it wasn't presented as a trend. I still plan on attacking Princess next month to test her agouti


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Let us know the results when you get them!


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