# Look for in stallion?



## MsBHavin

I look for conformation, temperament, overall picture and use-ability. If you have some twit with a stud, who can't do anything with it except take pictures of it running around a field that is a HUGE turn off. I want to know the stud is a good equine citizen and is being put through his paces!


If you have the space and ability to handle the colt I see no problem with letting him mature to see how he turns out. Unless he's got a bad mind, it never hurts! Do you have any pictures?


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## Tracer

Temperament is a big thing. You want a horse that is gentle and respectful at all times, even when he's going to be doing the deed. You wouldn't want any major conformation flaws - a little one here and there could be overlooked if the stallion has a great personality and otherwise solid conformation.

And yes, you want a horse that you can use. I've met two stallions that I absolutely adore because they are people horses, respectful, and get used. One is a reiner, the other gets used for stockwork, and even when breeding season rolls around, they still have a good head on their shoulders.


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## Druydess

Temperament and a good mind have to be a given. If they're rank or undependable/unpredictable, they're useless to me. I need to be sure these traits are passed on to my foals. Conformation and beauty are also important, else why bother? Versatility and a good work ethic are necessary, but perhaps the most important thing next to a good mind is his ability to produce. The paramount reason to keep a stallion intact IMO is his ability to create outstanding foals. *THIS* is how he proves himself. Very few are kept just as "buddies." There are too many stallions with titles that produce crap and plenty without them that produce gold. Always look at his get before choosing a stallion, and look for lines that are known to be prepotent.

My two colts, Gold N Psynn-Psyation and Gold N Echo, are the result of a stallion (Golden Ecstasy) with an amazing temperament, beauty, conformation, movement, and great mind. Both colts have inherited all that and more.

My stallion,Obsidian Dream S shares all of the above, easily handled during breeding and he as calm as a cucumber, extremely intelligent- picks things up wicked fast, is curious and friendly, and has no ax to grind. He has passed calmness, a good mind, beauty, type, and movement on to his daughter, Dream of Faery Fire. THIS proves him. The colts I have now, and his other get, prove Golden Ecstasy.

A perfect example of the whole package:






What he produces:












Obsidian Dream S:





What he produces:





(and these are her "ugly" phase)








The proof's in the pudding, so they say! :wink: All the ribbons in the world have no bearing on a sire's innate ability to produce exceptional get. That always has to be proven in the breeding shed.


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## MsBHavin

So what do they actually do? Are they trained in anything or are they just horses that run around in a pasture so you can photograph them? The world doesn't need more horses that are pasture puffs. Why exactly DO you breed for? What is your market?


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## Aesthetic

MsBHavin said:


> I look for conformation, temperament, overall picture and use-ability. If you have some twit with a stud, who can't do anything with it except take pictures of it running around a field that is a HUGE turn off. I want to know the stud is a good equine citizen and is being put through his paces!
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> If you have the space and ability to handle the colt I see no problem with letting him mature to see how he turns out. Unless he's got a bad mind, it never hurts! Do you have any pictures?


Agreed, the stallion I used wasn't at his peak of...."ability" just yet. The colt is two months old. Pardon his dirtiness and his nibble wounds from momma. 
He's a little on the antisocial side, getting more and more curious every day. This might be because I wasn't home the day of his birth :/ Owner of his sire said the stud, Chief, was completely calm at six months. 




























He's in these two pastures until he is weaned. He'll be moved to a much more...mobile place for him. I don't want him learning bad habits from the filly in this pasture with him :/ Repairing a fence hopefully doesn't take a toll on his attitude being with those few horses.


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## Aesthetic

Tracer said:


> Temperament is a big thing. You want a horse that is gentle and respectful at all times, even when he's going to be doing the deed. You wouldn't want any major conformation flaws - a little one here and there could be overlooked if the stallion has a great personality and otherwise solid conformation.
> 
> And yes, you want a horse that you can use. I've met two stallions that I absolutely adore because they are people horses, respectful, and get used. One is a reiner, the other gets used for stockwork, and even when breeding season rolls around, they still have a good head on their shoulders.


The sire's conformation wasn't /Stellar/. This colt seems to have taken the more from his dam than his sire. I won't really be able to know until the colt is a little older. Sadly, I was hoping the sire would be up to his game by now, but the previous owner of him set him out to pasture after an injury and he hasn't done a thing since. He was such a good stallion. Great temperament, did anything you asked and was like a puppy anywhere you had him. I swear the interest in mares he had didn't exist!


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## Aesthetic

MsBHavin said:


> So what do they actually do? Are they trained in anything or are they just horses that run around in a pasture so you can photograph them? The world doesn't need more horses that are pasture puffs. Why exactly DO you breed for? What is your market?


Barrel Racing and Pole bending horses. Rodeo bred. I breed for the typical conformation of a barrel horse. Thick and low hocks, slightly downhill, thick rear end and shoulder, short back, short thick neck. I like a little bit of height as well.


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> Temperament and a good mind have to be a given. If they're rank or undependable/unpredictable, they're useless to me. I need to be sure these traits are passed on to my foals. Conformation and beauty are also important, else why bother? Versatility and a good work ethic are necessary, but perhaps the most important thing next to a good mind is his ability to produce. The paramount reason to keep a stallion intact IMO is his ability to create outstanding foals. *THIS* is how he proves himself. Very few are kept just as "buddies." There are too many stallions with titles that produce crap and plenty without them that produce gold. Always look at his get before choosing a stallion, and look for lines that are known to be prepotent.
> 
> My two colts, Gold N Psynn-Psyation and Gold N Echo, are the result of a stallion (Golden Ecstasy) with an amazing temperament, beauty, conformation, movement, and great mind. Both colts have inherited all that and more.
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> My stallion,Obsidian Dream S shares all of the above, easily handled during breeding and he as calm as a cucumber, extremely intelligent- picks things up wicked fast, is curious and friendly, and has no ax to grind. He has passed calmness, a good mind, beauty, type, and movement on to his daughter, Dream of Faery Fire. THIS proves him. The colts I have now, and his other get, prove Golden Ecstasy.
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> A perfect example of the whole package:
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> Golden Ecstasy - YouTube
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> The proof's in the pudding, so they say! :wink: All the ribbons in the world have no bearing on a sire's innate ability to produce exceptional get. That always has to be proven in the breeding shed.


Definitely a stunning stallion! I agree with you in this post!


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## MsBHavin

Aesthetic said:


> Agreed, the stallion I used wasn't at his peak of...."ability" just yet. The colt is two months old. Pardon his dirtiness and his nibble wounds from momma.
> He's a little on the antisocial side, getting more and more curious every day. This might be because I wasn't home the day of his birth :/ Owner of his sire said the stud, Chief, was completely calm at six months.
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> He's in these two pastures until he is weaned. He'll be moved to a much more...mobile place for him. I don't want him learning bad habits from the filly in this pasture with him :/ Repairing a fence hopefully doesn't take a toll on his attitude being with those few horses.


Look at the hes ol
hind end on him! He's going to be a stunner when hes older!!


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## CAVaqueroHorses

I look for a good quality temperament that is in line with the breed standard (I breed old Spanish stock. I wouldn't want a stallion that has the temperament of a QH as that is not the temperament that a old Spanish horse should have), excellent conformation that makes up for the faults of my mare's, nice movement, and classic old Spanish looks. I also want to make sure that height is a good size and breed accurate. The breed I have does not come in horses taller than 15HH and rarely has horses smaller than 14HH. I am aiming at producing stock that is 14.2HH - 15HH. Perfect size for most people to do dressage with one weekend and conquer Cougar Rock on the next. Not too big to chase a cow well on and not too small that a full grown man couldn't ride. Perfect size IMO.


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## Druydess

Aesthetic said:


> Definitely a stunning stallion! I agree with you in this post!


Thank you! Just remember to keep in mind YOUR goals for your future breeding. What your best choices are depend on that. Don't let anyone discourage you; they're not worth your time. I recommend finding mentor, either IRL or someone trustworthy online. We have some great professional people here. Follow people you admire. The ones with integrity, intellect, and professionalism will stand out. They can offer sound, unbiased advice. :wink:


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## Aesthetic

thanks guys


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## MGTS

Sometimes you go with your gut. If you have the space and time you let them "grow up" a bit and make another decision. Then you let them mature under saddle and make another decision.

I loved my old stallion - loved his build, loved the mind and conformation he put on his foals. But I gelded every colt he had except 1 - and that one I keep re-evaluating every year *lol* so far at 2 and started under saddle I havent had a reason to cut him yet. . . but he just "screamed" prospect from birth. No intention of breeding him until he is *at least* 5 yrs & has had a career of some sort to prove his worth.


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## dbarabians

I think a stallion must have a great conformation, good mind, versatility and the ability to pass these things on to his offspring.
The only way to prove a stallion for breeding is to breed him. 
Look at his offspring, siblings, and sire and dam. That should give you a good idea of what he can do in the breeding shed.
I look at his performance record last especially if it is in the show ring. 
Too often, politics and fads determine the winners not ability. Shalom


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> I think a stallion must have a great conformation, good mind, versatility and the ability to pass these things on to his offspring.
> The only way to prove a stallion for breeding is to breed him.
> Look at his offspring, siblings, and sire and dam. That should give you a good idea of what he can do in the breeding shed.
> I look at his performance record last especially if it is in the show ring.
> Too often, politics and fads determine the winners not ability. Shalom


Exactly. I don't get why some people don't get this.
I have seen people invest in a very nice stallion prospect, spend tons on shows, marketing, campaigning, which take a few years, then another few years of training under saddle, and then shows, where- by this time- if it's done right- the stallion is 5-7 years old, a small fortune has been invested in him- another year to see babies hit the ground, and then- he produces crap. Not a keeper in the bunch. All that time, money, effort, not to mention presupposing a future business reputation that by now, people have been watching- for nothing and now you have babies you can't _*give*_ away. I have seen this. It does no one a bit of good, least of all the horse.

Personally, I'm going to have proof positive before my hard earned money goes anywhere. Not to mention the politics that IS a major factor in the ring. I've talked with some of the TOP Arabian trainers and what the "winners" do to win would make you sick. None of "us" are likely to win "First" in the big leagues unless we sacrifice our horse and have our faces firmly ensconced in the right peoples' **** to neck level. No ribbon is worth it to me. There may be a few exceptions, but it's not the norm.

In any case, Dream has proven what he can do, and all the shows in the world mean nothing next to the exquisite filly he gave me. SHE will be his best advertisement, and there'll be more of equal, or better caliber in the future.


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## Chiilaa

As a growing colt, these are the things I would look for, in order to let him keep his bits entire:

Does he have perfect health? No? Chop them.

Is he as near to perfect an example of his breed type as possible? No? How major are his faults? If you can list more than two glaring faults with his conformation - chop them.

Is his personality desirable? Bearing in mind that stallions should be just as well behaved as geldings or mares, if he has been given the best chance with quality training, and is still a douche - chop them.

Is his pedigree worth continuing? He has 16 full brothers standing stud - chop him. His sire line tends to have foals that "take after the dam side" - chop him. His lines have a tendency towards nut jobs/weak backs/foals that don't sell - chop him.

I would be constantly evaluating a colt as he grew, and constantly asking myself these questions over and over. If I had any hesitation, any second thought about his suitability, I would chop him. IMO, a stallion should be as close to perfect as possible, and anything less should be a gelding.


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## Foxhunter

First thing I will do when goings into breeding, is study the mare. I will want her to have proven that she is true to her breed, has good conformation and has proven to show that she has ability in whatever field she has worked in.

Having decided on breeding her, I will then look for a stallion that has better conformation than the mare on her weaker side.
He should have proven his breeding worthiness by having competed and won. 

Conformation passed my eye, I will want to see him trot up in hand to see how straight he moves. Temperament counts for a lot though, I have seen very good proven stallions be a bit mouthy or ansty early in the season. Some, also through mishandling can be downright nasty but, in the right hands and work, turn right around.
If the horse has stood at stud for a few years I would want his prodigy to be winning.

I would want to see some of his young stock to assess what he was throwing. 
When there are genetic problems as in some breeds, I would expect the stud to have checked for the genes and have the paperwork to prove he was clear.


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## Zexious

I think a stallion should be the pristine example of the breed that he is representing, and a pleasure to be around. To me, that means no glaring vices, no glaring conformation flaws, and the ability to /do/ something, regardless of the discipline.


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## Arab Mama

Conformation, health, temperament, usability, and intelligence are the foundation for a good stud. However, how he holds up under the rigors of training and performance absolutely HAVE to be considered when you are looking at the "big" picture. Do people pay money to look at a beautiful horse standing in his pasture? Do you end up in the Olympics because your horse is intelligent and has perfect conformation? Does your horse make it to be a national champion reiner solely because of his bloodline? It is the success of that horse's career that makes it a valuable commodity. Look at pedigree write ups. They focus on the success of the horses in the bloodline. Are they successful for standing in a stall or pasture, or are they successful at some form of competition?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

Chiilaa said:


> As a growing colt, these are the things I would look for, in order to let him keep his bits entire:
> 
> Does he have perfect health? No? Chop them.
> 
> Is he as near to perfect an example of his breed type as possible? No? How major are his faults? If you can list more than two glaring faults with his conformation - chop them.
> 
> Is his personality desirable? Bearing in mind that stallions should be just as well behaved as geldings or mares, if he has been given the best chance with quality training, and is still a douche - chop them.
> 
> Is his pedigree worth continuing? He has 16 full brothers standing stud - chop him. His sire line tends to have foals that "take after the dam side" - chop him. His lines have a tendency towards nut jobs/weak backs/foals that don't sell - chop him.
> 
> I would be constantly evaluating a colt as he grew, and constantly asking myself these questions over and over. If I had any hesitation, any second thought about his suitability, I would chop him. IMO, a stallion should be as close to perfect as possible, and anything less should be a gelding.


This is exactly what i'm doing! 

He's had amazing health since birth, no problems. He's just been the typical colt to gets himself hung up in a fence from being curious.

So far on his conformation I haven't seen any obvious faults. I'm no expert though. Most people say he's to young to judge at two and a half months old. I'm not sure how true that is.

He seems to have taken his sire's personality. They are almost exactly the same. Calm, curious. Patient.

As for his pedigree. The stallions only been bred twice. His first colt was never registered, his bloodlines are desirable in the area of our knowledge. The sire is the only one left from my colts grandsire. The stallions sire and grandsire were ran off cliffs a few years back.

I haven't been to hesitant with him, then again. I'm no expert.


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## dbarabians

I believe strongly in line and inbreeding . It is the surest way to set type .
My Stallion Star is related to every mare I own except the TB's an QH's.
it is the one reason I considered buying him. After his conformation and temperament. So that is one of the major things I look for in a pedigree of any stallion that I breed to or stand to my own mares.
Rushing Sam my newest stallion is a perfect outcross for Stars fillies I might keep. No Bask in his pedigree or The Minstrel either. Both of those stallions are the lines I have based my breeding program on. Shalom


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## Arab Mama

I guess inbreeding isn't one of those things I get. How can we make laws that keep humans from inbreeding because we know it will produce inherent problems in offspring, yet we don't seem to have a problem doing it to/with our animals? Personally, I'd rather have a more diverse gene pool.


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## Chiilaa

Arab Mama said:


> I guess inbreeding isn't one of those things I get. How can we make laws that keep humans from inbreeding because we know it will produce inherent problems in offspring, yet we don't seem to have a problem doing it to/with our animals? Personally, I'd rather have a more diverse gene pool.


Inbreeding doesn't "produce" problems, it can highlight them is all. The problems have to be in the genetic code to start with. Inbreeding doesn't cause mutations, or two headed foals, or anything like that. 

Comparing horses to humans in something like this is like comparing apples and oranges. Horses don't have any sense of "family" - they have a sense of herd, but care nothing for blood relationships.


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## dbarabians

All pure bred animals are inbred.
The TB breed derived from 3 arabian stallions, the morgan from 1. Several other breeds have a single stallion as their source.
Inbreeding has been practiced for thousands of years.
As far as humans are concerned the book of Genesis is full of incest.
Abraham married his own sister, their son married his Uncles daughter, His son married his Uncles daughters that is a pretty tight gene pool IMO. Blessed by G-D. Shalom


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## Arab Mama

Yeah, well we have inbreeding to thank for many problems that plague purebreds of any species. For example, German Shepherds are notorious for hip dysplasia, Daschunds for back problems, English Bulldogs for breathing issues, the list goes on. Just because it is done on a routine basis, doesn't mean that it is healthy. I just prefer my horses to have a more diverse gene pool.


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## Chiilaa

Arab Mama said:


> Yeah, well we have inbreeding to thank for many problems that plague purebreds of any species. For example, German Shepherds are notorious for hip dysplasia, Daschunds for back problems, English Bulldogs for breathing issues, the list goes on. Just because it is done on a routine basis, doesn't mean that it is healthy. I just prefer my horses to have a more diverse gene pool.


No, the blame isn't on inbreeding. The blame is on irresponsible breeders who put type before health. Completely different issue.


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## dbarabians

ArabMama , inbreeding has been used for thousands of years since animals were domesticated.
The Kiger Mustangs have a very narrow gene pool yet no hereditary issues.
When breeding our cattle we either breed the bull back to his own daughter or his granddaughter. Never both . With very good results and have for decades. We do not however use a bull we have bred.
However all Santa Gertrudas cattle are descendants of a bull bred on the King Ranch .
Our calf crop every year is uniform and with very little disease and no genetic problems.
Like it or not line breeding and inbreeding are important and will continue.
You must be careful when choosing the sire and dam more so than with distantly related animals.
IMO the more distant the animal is related to its mate the more chances faults . Shalom


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## BlueSpark

If I had a colt I was thinking of keeping intact(highly unlikely) then I would first sit down and ask these questions;
-does he fit my goals? If not a resounding yes, snip,snip.
-how is his conformation? If not close to perfect, with only very minor flaws, same result as above.
-How is his temperment/attitude? If its not A+++ he gets snipped.
-How are his bloodlines? are they truly desirable? If not, a good stallion makes a fantastic gelding.

Those would be asked of the colts periodically as it grew, if at any time the answer changed to one of those questions, then off to the vet he goes. When he turned 3 or so I would start saddle training, and if he excelled at that, I would breed him to one or two good quality mares. Then I would evalute the foals the next spring and decide wether to proceed with training, showing and advertizing. If at any point I had doubts, or he didnt pass a test with flying colors, he would be loosing his jewels.

the fact is, there are too many poor/fair/good quality foals on the ground, but few exceptional ones. There are far too many poor/fair/good quality stallions siring those foals. The number of people who have a "flashy arabian stallion", "Race winning thoroughbred stallion" or a paint or appy with "color, color, color!!" that want $300 for a stud fee and will breed anything with a uterous, but have poor temperments, faulty conformation, and in all other ways are at best, mediocre.

keeping a stallion is a pain, and breeding is expensive. A friend of mine had a thoroughbred colt with stellar bloodlines, incredible conformation, tons of tallent and an A+++ disposition. she debated when he was two keeping him a stallion. she had doubts, and got him gelded. at three he proved to be an incredibly fast, successful race horse, but there were no regrets. he gets to play with the herd, enjoy other horses and run in the big pasture, while the stallion stays separated from everyone, with just a goat and donkey for company.


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## dbarabians

Bluespark the 2 mature stallions here might take a little more of my time but allow me to assure you they are no pain. 
I also do not agree with waiting to train a stallion under saddle and show him before breeding him to a few mares.
Most breeders that I know of feel the same way.
Cassius is now 15 months old. He will breed a couple of mares next spring probably before he is 2.
Then again the next spring. I believe the only way to prove any stallion or mare of being worthy is to breed them. If after 2-3 small foal crops he does not measure up he will be sold and or gelded.
I refuse to have a horse trained before they are 3-4 years of age.
Why waste that time feeding and caring for a horse that might not meet my expectations. It is a waste of time and money IMO. Shalom


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## MsBHavin

dbarabians said:


> Most breeders that I know of feel the same way.
> Cassius is now 15 months old. He will breed a couple of mares next spring probably before he is 2.



I'm sorry, but BEFORE he is 2? You will have to explain your reasoning behind that, that makes no sense, you are in essence breeding a foal.


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## BlueSpark

> the 2 mature stallions here might take a little more of my time but allow me to assure you they are no pain.


I said keeping a stallion IS A pain, not IS IN pain. I don't know anyone that would disagree that they require additional effort in care, housing, and management. You can throw a gelding in the trailer with your mares, trailer to say a public trail ride or show, and not worry. A stallion typically needs to be separated from mares, and sometimes geldings, needs a more knowledgeable rider, and needs special housing wherever he goes. Our competitive trail association requires that they be away from other horses and contained by two methods, such as tied to a trailer, within a panel fence. They go after all other horses for vet checks. At home they need better fencing(often higher, stronger and electrified), and careful choice of companions. 

I don't see the point in breeding to 2 or 3 mares before you even know how a horse will take to saddle training. And if the stallion turns out to be horrid under saddle? then what? Many colts are not even ready to breed before 2.


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## MsBHavin

BlueSpark said:


> I said keeping a stallion IS A pain, not IS IN pain. I don't know anyone that would disagree that they require additional effort in care, housing, and management. You can throw a gelding in the trailer with your mares, trailer to say a public trail ride or show, and not worry. A stallion typically needs to be separated from mares, and sometimes geldings, needs a more knowledgeable rider, and needs special housing wherever he goes. Our competitive trail association requires that they be away from other horses and contained by two methods, such as tied to a trailer, within a panel fence. They go after all other horses for vet checks. At home they need better fencing(often higher, stronger and electrified), and careful choice of companions.
> 
> I don't see the point in breeding to 2 or 3 mares before you even know how a horse will take to saddle training. And if the stallion turns out to be horrid under saddle? then what? Many colts are not even ready to breed before 2.


Apparently people need to know that they can reproduce, and therefore they do not need to saddle train. I would much rather know the horse has the capabilities to stand up to training and be good at something other than proving his testicles work...


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## dbarabians

Bluespark my stallions are no more of a pain to care for than the other 29 horses I own. I did not say they were in pain.
Cassius was purchased as a stallion prospect.
Not a show horse. He will be shown in hand next spring and when he is 3 or 4 trained under saddle. He will only be shown regionally. I have no desire to go to Nationals or the Egyptian Event
I do not place much importance on a show record. Too many times who trained or exhibited the horse is a determining factor in the ribbon count.
Cassius has outstanding conformation and was bred to be an arabian sport horse.
Why wait until he is trained and competing in Dressage to start his breeding career? That would not be a very good business decision on my behalf.
If he doesnt measure up in the breeding shed I can cut my losses at 4-5 instead of 9 or 10. Plus there should be offspring competing and he will have proven himself the only way a stallion ultimately needs to....by throwing good colts with sound minds and great conformation.
No one has to agree with me about it. It is my money, my time and my horse.
I am 54 next Sept 1. He should be my last stallion to promote and stand.
I dont have decades to wait for results. Shalom


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## Aesthetic

BlueSpark said:


> I said keeping a stallion IS A pain, not IS IN pain. I don't know anyone that would disagree that they require additional effort in care, housing, and management. You can throw a gelding in the trailer with your mares, trailer to say a public trail ride or show, and not worry. A stallion typically needs to be separated from mares, and sometimes geldings, needs a more knowledgeable rider, and needs special housing wherever he goes. Our competitive trail association requires that they be away from other horses and contained by two methods, such as tied to a trailer, within a panel fence. They go after all other horses for vet checks. At home they need better fencing(often higher, stronger and electrified), and careful choice of companions.
> 
> I don't see the point in breeding to 2 or 3 mares before you even know how a horse will take to saddle training. And if the stallion turns out to be horrid under saddle? then what? Many colts are not even ready to breed before 2.


I ride my stallion out on trails, he trailers with other mares and is even pastured right next to mares. He competes at local events and has no problem. His fencing is the standard 4 1/2 to 5 ft high twisted wire fence. No electricity or piping. 

At local events mares have peed around him and he wouldn't budge, Trail rides next to mares all day. He wouldn't even sniff or mount a mare unless a vocal command was given. Stallions like him exist more than you believe.


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## dbarabians

MsBHavin said:


> Apparently people need to know that they can reproduce, and therefore they do not need to saddle train. I would much rather know the horse has the capabilities to stand up to training and be good at something other than proving his testicles work...


As long as he is fertile I know he can reproduce. As long as he is sound and with his conformation he should be, he can "stand up to training" or whatever that means.
As inbred as he is to Thee Despardo and Ansata Ibn Halima I am not worried about what he can reproduce. The genetics are there.
Breeding a horse that is sexually mature will NOT have a negative affect on his mental or physical development.
It is apparent someone places a lot of faith on what they read on the internet, not in an actual breeding program. Shalom


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Bluespark my stallions are no more of a pain to care for than the other 29 horses I own. I did not say they were in pain.
> Cassius was purchased as a stallion prospect.
> Not a show horse. He will be shown in hand next spring and when he is 3 or 4 trained under saddle. He will only be shown regionally. I have no desire to go to Nationals or the Egyptian Event
> I do not place much importance on a show record. Too many times who trained or exhibited the horse is a determining factor in the ribbon count.
> Cassius has outstanding conformation and was bred to be an arabian sport horse.
> Why wait until he is trained and competing in Dressage to start his breeding career? That would not be a very good business decision on my behalf.
> If he doesnt measure up in the breeding shed I can cut my losses at 4-5 instead of 9 or 10. Plus there should be offspring competing and he will have proven himself the only way a stallion ultimately needs to....by throwing good colts with sound minds and great conformation.
> No one has to agree with me about it. It is my money, my time and my horse.
> I am 54 next Sept 1. He should be my last stallion to promote and stand.
> I dont have decades to wait for results. Shalom


It is an a$$backwards approach to spend thousands on shows, time, and effort, for a dubious collection of ribbons, or lack thereof due to ring politics only to find out your stallion isn't prepotent enough to produce well. If people want to wait and see if it all works out after 6-8-10 years, well good on them, but I don't see the sense in that approach. I also will know up front IF my stallion(s) are worth dumping the time and money into.

I got the same BS about breeding Dream at 3 years old db. The usual crap about him being ruined, he'll turn into an unmanageable monster, how dare I, I won't be able to handle him, etc..ad nauseum. (Not from the Arabian breeders I know though) Some even went so far as to spread rumors that I bred him as a yearling.. Small minds can not entertain the possibility that each stallion is different and some mature earlier than other as well as the different tractability they may have. The judgmental, superior attitude is best ignored when it comes to horses. If I listened to such claptrap, Fae and Psynny, the exquisite results of MY choices, both wouldn't exist. If I listened to some idiot telling me Solei was a POS mare that would never level out and would never produce anything good, or that my stock is just mediocre, well I'd be wasting my time entertaining fools. 

Solei leveled out and apparently outproduces herself, as I thought. Dream remained a calm, easily handled stallion, as I thought, and is a gentleman breeder as a 3 year old; no fuss and perfect breeding manners. He breeds on a loose line. He is more laid back than half of my mares. (And they are quiet, calm mares).

I too will breed Psynny as a 3 year old if he remains as he is mentally, and whoever has heartburn about it can go pound sand in a rat hole.. :wink:
As you said.. MY money; MY time; MY horses. Apoplectic fits by others are entirely unimpressive.

It's time to stop the cookie-cutter mentality/approach and look at each horse as an individual. So far, I'm extremely happy with my program and how it is evolving, so I will continue to do what works, and works well.


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## dbarabians

Druydess anyone who says your horses are mediocre has an agenda not an eye for good horse flesh.
Cassius will not be bred to any mare until he has dropped and returned from the trainers this winter or early next spring. I have never seen a stallion drop earlier than 18 months and I dont expect him to until almost 2.
He is a big boy and will take longer to mature than other colts.
If the trainer thinks he needs more time he will get it.
It is about training and handling a stallion that makes them a pain at times.
Both mine can be lead through a herd of mares with most of them in heat with only rope halters.
Now I am not going to post any negative remarks.
I have received some disturbing results from a biopsy on Friday.
Everyone of us is entitled to our opinion. Lets remember that
I am now focusing on positive posts and remarks. I have other things now in my life to consider and negative remarks are an unnecessary distraction. Shalom


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Druydess anyone who says your horses are mediocre has an agenda not an eye for good horse flesh.
> Cassius will not be bred to any mare until he has dropped and returned from the trainers this winter or early next spring. I have never seen a stallion drop earlier than 18 months and I dont expect him to until almost 2.
> He is a big boy and will take longer to mature than other colts.
> If the trainer thinks he needs more time he will get it.
> It is about training and handling a stallion that makes them a pain at times.
> Both mine can be lead through a herd of mares with most of them in heat with only rope halters.
> Now I am not going to post any negative remarks.
> I have received some disturbing results from a biopsy on Friday.
> Everyone of us is entitled to our opinion. Lets remember that
> I am now focusing on positive posts and remarks. I have other things now in my life to consider and negative remarks are an unnecessary distraction. Shalom


I know db, believe me..

Negativity is a curse on the internet and serves no purpose. Please let me know if I can be of any help medically.


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## Golden Horse

Such a shame that more breed registries don't have the same rules as the Haflingers do, you can't register a foal unless both sire and dam were older than three at the time of mating, seems like a sensible idea to me.


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## redpony

I guess this is where breeders of race horses have it "easier". A horse that has not proven themselves on the track rarely gets bred, stallion or mare. Also, there are no judges, per se, only the clock. A horse that doesn't take a good mark will not be stood, a mare may be bred if she has good breeding and only an average mark. But breeding a mare with only a time trial mark or that is unraced GREATLY reduces the value of their colts. I have a nice mare that has decent breeding but when she was trained she got down to about 2:20 and was "roaring". This is something that is pretty easy to fix with minor surgery but we had 3 other horses in training, one that had had some vetting, so we decided to stop with her and I broke her to saddle. She will never put a foal on the ground because she did not race and take a mark. I also believe in line breeding, however, I have seen some AQHA pedigrees that, to me, are just scary. I will say that my experience is with standardbreds, not other racing breeds.


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## BlueSpark

> I did not say they were in pain.


sorry, read it wrong.

My point was:
-there are far too many mediocre horses(foals, broodmares and stallions) out there. If I had to guess, I would say at least 75% of stallions standing at studs should never have made it past the yearlings intact.
-most people do not know how to properly handle a stud, while in hand, being ridden, or even breeding a mare.
-a FAR higher percentage of stallions will challenge fencing to get at mares or defend their area/herd. That is why, generally speaking, they need higher fencing.
-I believe stallions need to prove themselves, with pedigree, conformation, temperament and ideally, trainability. The number of stallions around here that are never even started under saddle is ridiculous. I believe if you are breeding for saddle horses, the stallion should at least show an aptitude for it, such as excelling in basic saddle training. I'm not talking about waiting until they have 10 years of training, just seeing how they accept the saddle, bridle and rider, doing basic maneuvers. If you are a responsible breeder who wants to do differently, up to you, but the above is my preference.

I have know stallions that kids could lead through a herd of in heat mares without batting an eyelash. I have ridden this same stallion(ottb) with 5 mares, 4 of which were in heat, on a trail ride, with him better behaved then most geldings. I have also seen a stallion, housed in a 6' board fenced pasture on one corner of the property, break out of corral by bashing his chest against the boards until they broke, jumping the remaining boards, running across the property before smashing through another 5' 2x6 corral to get at the other stallion. their corrals were hundreds of feet apart, with a house, barn, and many trees in between.

I think a properly handle stallion is wonderful, but too many people lack the experience, or even desire to handle one the right way.


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## Muppetgirl

My thoughts......

Breed the best to the best, geld the rest.

Conformation
Performance - which includes showing and is an EXCELLENT indicator of a horses mental capabilities and physical capabilities (why would you breed something who has the mind of a mole and the soundness of a cardboard crane just because for all outwards appearances they look 'perfect'? There could be something lurking in there that you don't know about) 


What I cannot understand is why people are breeding 'riding' horses out of/by horses who have never been ridden or if so they have been hopeless as a riding prospect so have been sent to be a broody. 

I have a friend who took her stud down to show in the futurity in Oklahoma last year. He had never been advertised as a stud. On paper he was perfect, conformation ally he was perfect.....mentally he was an *** and was deemed not stud quality, he was gelded within a month of arriving home. If she hadn't shown him and just let him jump on mares instead, the offspring more than likely would've been an embarrassment to her. She made the right and responsible choice.


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## dbarabians

If I were breeding race horses and ability could be judged against a clock I would wait to see if Cassius would do well before breeding.
Golden Horse if arabians were as few in number as Haflingers I would agree with your point.
There is too much competition in the arabian world for stallion services to wait half a decade before knowing what he will produce. Plus his foals will also help promote him or tell me to cut my losses.
Cassius is easy to handle and very calm compared to most of my mares.
He will be sent to a professional to be trained for either halter or sport horse in hand. That will give me an insight into how well he trains and develops .
Allow me to assure everyone this is not about making money.
These horses are a HOBBY. I do not require nor do I expect to make any money. 
It is about time. I am 53, I have been HIV+ for decades and this will be my third bout with cancer.
Would you wait if you were in my shoes? Shalom Donald


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## Muppetgirl

Sorry to hear that Donald. Take care.


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## MsBHavin

Db.If horses are a hobby why did you say that they are a business in your last post? Either they're one or the other, if they are strictly a hobby then you ought not breed a yearling.


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## dbarabians

Thanks Muppetgirl.
Its life and I will go on living.
I have access to excellent healthcare, two wonderful daughters, and some kind friends on this forum. I will be OK.
If I post in anger or am too rude please call me out on it.
There is never any excuse for bad manners. Shalom Donald


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## Golden Horse

Very sorry to read of your health issues, that is a lot to fight, and my sympathies and best wishes are with you.

That aside, I still can't support the breeding of unproven babies, either as a business, or a hobby, and you do seem a little confused as to which you have here. Whatever ones personal situation, putting foals on the ground is a huge responsibility and they deserve the best chance in life.


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## dbarabians

MsBavin MY HORSES ARE A HOBBY. plain and simple.
I do not intend to throw thousands of dollars away promoting, showing training a horse just to spend money.
I treat it like a business . With contracts, by keeping my word, keeping records of expenses.
Why dont you focus on positive things.
Your negativity is very telling and i will not allow you to harass me like you do another member.
Get a life. You just might learn to focus on your own happiness instead of getting some twisted kick from your childish behavior. 
Until you have something constructive or important to say you do not exist as far as I am concerned.


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## dbarabians

Golden Horse said:


> Very sorry to read of your health issues, that is a lot to fight, and my sympathies and best wishes are with you.
> 
> That aside, I still can't support the breeding of unproven babies, either as a business, or a hobby, and you do seem a little confused as to which you have here. Whatever ones personal situation, putting foals on the ground is a huge responsibility and they deserve the best chance in life.


Thanks for the support .
How do you know my horses are not given the best chance in life.
Most of my horses I bred and have kept for years. Decades most of them. Most will die here.
They receive excellent care.
I am not raising ten-twenty foals a year that must be sold to make room for others.
i am also not focusing my breeding program on one discipline. If i did I might make some money. however every foal that did not live up to my expectations would be a failure.
i consider any correct foal a success.
All the fillies have a chance to live their lives here. The colts will be sold to those i approve. Shalom


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## MsBHavin

Then if you treat it as a business that is what it is. Hobby people do not breed an unproven herd of horses. They also care if one of other animals pass away (which you have stated you do not due to having so many and them being a business) which member are you referring to? You'll have to point out the 'harassing' posts since I believe you are reading into something that simply doesn't exist


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## redpony

It is about time. I am 53, I have been HIV+ for decades and this will be my third bout with cancer.
Would you wait if you were in my shoes? Shalom Donald[/QUOTE]


I would breed his a$$ off and enjoy every minute! I don't believe your horses lack for anything, either in their genetics or care. Life is too short, even without health issues, to delay happiness!


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> If I were breeding race horses and ability could be judged against a clock I would wait to see if Cassius would do well before breeding.
> Golden Horse if arabians were as few in number as Haflingers I would agree with your point.
> There is too much competition in the arabian world for stallion services to wait half a decade before knowing what he will produce. Plus his foals will also help promote him or tell me to cut my losses.
> Cassius is easy to handle and very calm compared to most of my mares.
> He will be sent to a professional to be trained for either halter or sport horse in hand. That will give me an insight into how well he trains and develops .
> Allow me to assure everyone this is not about making money.
> These horses are a HOBBY. I do not require nor do I expect to make any money.
> It is about time. I am 53, I have been HIV+ for decades and this will be my third bout with cancer.
> Would you wait if you were in my shoes? Shalom Donald


I agree. I'm not ill and I'm not waiting decades either. I work in a profession where death is always closer than one expects and no one has a guarantee at a long life. I have been cognizant of the fleetingness and preciousness of the time we all have since I began medicine in the late 80's. It is ridiculous and pathetic that some people who don't face such life challenges still don't have the decency and grace to know when to sheepishly shut the hell up. The irony is-- it's coming for them too. Perhaps they should make the best of life in the interim.

You deserve every happiness Donald!


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## Druydess

redpony said:


> It is about time. I am 53, I have been HIV+ for decades and this will be my third bout with cancer.
> Would you wait if you were in my shoes? Shalom Donald


 
I would breed his a$$ off and enjoy every minute! I don't believe your horses lack for anything, either in their genetics or care. Life is too short, even without health issues, to delay happiness![/QUOTE]

Hear! Hear!! Redpony!! :wink:

Donald's horses are very fortunate indeed.


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## dbarabians

Druydess I expect no one to hold their tongue if they have an opinion because of the news I received.
If you disagree with me thats OK. I am not asking for validation here.
This thread is not about me but what different people look for in a stallion.
The debate has been lively and entertaining.
I do think though we should return to the original topic. The OP might be interested in other opinions. Shalom


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## Muppetgirl

dbarabians said:


> Druydess I expect no one to hold their tongue if they have an opinion because of the news I received.
> If you disagree with me thats OK. I am not asking for validation here.
> This thread is not about me but what different people look for in a stallion.
> The debate has been lively and entertaining.
> I do think though we should return to the original topic. The OP might be interested in other opinions. Shalom


I agree Donald. Whats happening in someone's life health wise or emotionally can change they way people react or respond to them. We all have our battles, whatever they may be, not everyone is going to agree with you regardless of life's battles. Take care.


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Druydess I expect no one to hold their tongue if they have an opinion because of the news I received.
> If you disagree with me thats OK. I am not asking for validation here.
> This thread is not about me but what different people look for in a stallion.
> The debate has been lively and entertaining.
> I do think though we should return to the original topic. The OP might be interested in other opinions. Shalom


I wasn't referring to that; I was referring to belittling and beating a point to death, which had already been answered, which is a recurring theme with some. And the endless negativity.
There are some great points made and I believe each person has to do what suits them best according to their circumstance. Like anything else, one must glean the best of the information and discard the rest.

It is interesting that according to different breeds, disciplines, goals, and market, what one looks for in a stallion will be very different. That's why I don't look for "halter" horses. It's not what I'm going for and I don't much like they way they're treated at upper levels. That being said, I don't mind a few lower level halter shows if they have ability in other areas..


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## dbarabians

Agree also Druydess that different breeds have different goals.
I know several QH and Paint breeders that test their stallions virility as soon as possible.
If one of the things I insist on when choosing a stallion is seeing the siblings and any offspring then it only makes sense to breed that animal if it is not in training.
That way when the horse is retired to the breeding shed full time there are examples of what it can do. Why wait several more years promoting a stallion when there is so much competition from proven stallions with progeny already on the ground , showing or in competition?
I dont breed racehorses yet. Arabians cannot race until they are a true 3 years of age. So what harm does it do to collect or breed a 2 YO?
From what i have observed in the past and talking to others NONE. Shalom


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## Golden Horse

redpony said:


> I would breed his a$$ off and enjoy every minute! I don't believe your horses lack for anything, either in their genetics or care. Life is too short, even without health issues, to delay happiness!


Life is too short, that's for sure, and none of us know when the end will come, it's a scary thought. We should for sure live for today, but maybe we need to be mindful of tomorrow. I think the thing that scares me is I see so many large fire sales of Arabians, beautiful breeding herds being sold short because of the owners situation, be it financial or health related. Anyone who owns these beautiful creatures knows how easy it is to collect them:wink:


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## dbarabians

I will not breed his A$$ off. He is going to need that for competition.
He will be bred to different mares a TB, an SE arabian and a polish mare.
Different bloodlines and different types.
If he breeds true as I expect he will repeat the types again next year with different mares to see if we get the same results.
I want a stallion that can cross well with all the mares I own.
Golden Horse there will not be a need for a dispersal sale here due to my fiancial status. 
What my daughters do after I am gone is up to them. One of the reasons I want Cassius and all my horses trained is to ensure they have a good home.
If Cassius has progeny showing his value will increase and so will the semen we will have collected and stored. Shalom


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## redpony

GoldenHorse, what do you mean by "being sold short"?


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## MsBHavin

Druydess said:


> I wasn't referring to that; I was referring to belittling and beating a point to death, which had already been answered, which is a recurring theme with some. And the endless negativity.
> There are some great points made and I believe each person has to do what suits them best according to their circumstance. Like anything else, one must glean the best of the information and discard the rest.
> 
> It is interesting that according to different breeds, disciplines, goals, and market, what one looks for in a stallion will be very different. That's why I don't look for "halter" horses. It's not what I'm going for and I don't much like they way they're treated at upper levels. That being said, I don't mind a few lower level halter shows if they have ability in other areas..


Maybe time to make your own thread in regards to people belittling others. I see none of that in this thread and this should only be about what people look for in a stud
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

Well I have a question here. People say a good time to judge a foals conformation is three days, three months, and then three years right? My little colt is coming up on three months. Would that be a good time to get help assessing his conformation??


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## Golden Horse

redpony said:


> GoldenHorse, what do you mean by "being sold short"?


Under market value, I have quite a few friends in the Arab world.


Donald I'm glad that your circumstances protect your horses, my only thought is what happens after? (A subject close to my heart given the scare of my accident)


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## dbarabians

Golden Horse your concern is noted and I see your point.
I bred 5 mares for 2014 foals . If the treatments do not work they will be the last for a while.
OP if you have a good eye for conformation you can tell if a foal is correct.
how his shoulders slope , how straight his legs are, short back, and other things.
experienced breeders know what to look at and have previous foals to judge probably by the same mare and or stallion.
One of the reasons linebreeding is popular. If the horses breed true you already have a blueprint for how they will develop . Shalom


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## Aesthetic

dbarabians said:


> Golden Horse your concern is noted and I see your point.
> I bred 5 mares for 2014 foals . If the treatments do not work they will be the last for a while.
> OP if you have a good eye for conformation you can tell if a foal is correct.
> how his shoulders slope , how straight his legs are, short back, and other things.
> experienced breeders know what to look at and have previous foals to judge probably by the same mare and or stallion.
> One of the reasons linebreeding is popular. If the horses breed true you already have a blueprint for how they will develop . Shalom


Well my eye for conformation isn't the best. One reason i'm thinking about you guys tearing him apart lol


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Golden Horse your concern is noted and I see your point.
> I bred 5 mares for 2014 foals . If the treatments do not work they will be the last for a while.
> OP if you have a good eye for conformation you can tell if a foal is correct.
> how his shoulders slope , how straight his legs are, short back, and other things.
> experienced breeders know what to look at and have previous foals to judge probably by the same mare and or stallion.
> One of the reasons linebreeding is popular. If the horses breed true you already have a blueprint for how they will develop . Shalom



If we all live our lives according to what "might happen' - we'd all be sitting in a rubber room, bubble wrapped, along with our horses, and some yahoo would bi*** about that-- complaining that their skin is getting rubbed by bubble wrap- or other such nonsense.
Those who are responsible, by nature, will always entertain the possibilities and respond accordingly - ergo- they are not the problem. For example-- my horses all are willed to others in the event of my death.
The griping most people obsess about falls on deaf ears, as those who are ignorant and unwilling to entertain others' intelligent ideas certainly do not seek out advice in any consistent, concerted effort.
There are responsible breeders who can offer great advice and they are the "go to" people. Look and listen to what works for them and respond accordingly.


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## Druydess

Aesthetic said:


> Well I have a question here. People say a good time to judge a foals conformation is three days, three months, and then three years right? My little colt is coming up on three months. Would that be a good time to get help assessing his conformation??


If you have the option to have someone in your particular breed/discipline come and give an opinion, it could give you an idea where to go as to his ability, etc. But I say that with some reservation. ALL the "pros" have differing opinions.. take it as a guide as to where to go-- but NEVER settle for one opinion. The horse world is far too subjective.

Sooo-- are there pics of the little guy??


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> If you have the option to have someone in your particular breed/discipline come and give an opinion, it could give you an idea where to go as to his ability, etc. But I say that with some reservation. ALL the "pros" have differing opinions.. take it as a guide as to where to go-- but NEVER settle for one opinion. The horse world is far too subjective.
> 
> Sooo-- are there pics of the little guy??


Alrighty, I'm sorry he's been...picked on by all the other ponies out to the pastures.

I PROMISE you this is not how he normally stands...awkward position of trying to eat mommys food. 
















































Poor Baby...Needs a bath. He's getting social now, I missed the first 24 hours of his life and I regretted it but he's learning i'm no harm. Let me rub around his face today! -happy dance-


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## Druydess

Awww... what a sweet boy!! I saw him on another thread..

I'm not a QH/Paint person, so you need to get input from those who have this expertise. I'm sure there are plenty on this and other forums. But the best thing is to get an IRL person to give you some direction. It really is a big help, and here... online - you can get a wonderful person or a complete fool. So - choose wisely. You have time; he's just a baby yet. In the interim, feed him well, spend ALL your free time with him, and enjoy him immensely!


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> Awww... what a sweet boy!! I saw him on another thread..
> 
> I'm not a QH/Paint person, so you need to get input from those who have this expertise. I'm sure there are plenty on this and other forums. But the best thing is to get an IRL person to give you some direction. It really is a big help, and here... online - you can get a wonderful person or a complete fool. So - choose wisely. You have time; he's just a baby yet. In the interim, feed him well, spend ALL your free time with him, and enjoy him immensely!


I'm spending all I can! Momma just..."tolerates" me. So hopefully he learns from his little bachelor buddy who LOVES the human attention. He's getting more social, I might go grab some treats that are...safe for foals...if those exist to get him to nibble from my hands.


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## Druydess

Aesthetic said:


> I'm spending all I can! Momma just..."tolerates" me. So hopefully he learns from his little bachelor buddy who LOVES the human attention. He's getting more social, I might go grab some treats that are...safe for foals...if those exist to get him to nibble from my hands.


If he's 3 months.. use plain ol' feed.. THEY think it's a treat..

I would sit with them with handfuls of it and they just thought I was the best thing ever.. :wink:


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> If he's 3 months.. use plain ol' feed.. THEY think it's a treat..
> 
> I would sit with them with handfuls of it and they just thought I was the best thing ever.. :wink:


I try that almost every day! lol Momma comes up with her big ol' mouth and snatches it while they baby is still trying to find out if its poison...


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## Druydess

Aesthetic said:


> I try that almost every day! lol Momma comes up with her big ol' mouth and snatches it while they baby is still trying to find out if its poison...


Chase her away and he'll come investigate. You have to be very firm with the mommas..


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> Chase her away and he'll come investigate. You have to be very firm with the mommas..


She's just so.... That one cuddle horse out of all. The big plush pony you want to squeeze lol


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## dbarabians

OP that foal is going to have a very nice rump and develop nicely all over.
You have plenty of time to watch him grow and mature to decide which direction to go in his training.
Those pictures make his head look a little plain but when I take pictures of my arabians they all have large heads like a draft horse. So I will reserve judgement for later. Shalom


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## Aesthetic

dbarabians said:


> OP that foal is going to have a very nice rump and develop nicely all over.
> You have plenty of time to watch him grow and mature to decide which direction to go in his training.
> Those pictures make his head look a little plain but when I take pictures of my arabians they all have large heads like a draft horse. So I will reserve judgement for later. Shalom


Alright, I might make a critique thread for him in Conformation Critique, I just don't like hearing people say "Would Be A Nice Gelding" before he's done any growing.


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## dbarabians

Well your going to get the Nice gelding remark so dont allow it to get to you. It is your horse. Yours to do with whatever you choose. Keep that in mind.
I would get better pictures and wait. Once he has matured a little more his positive traits will be more apparent.
I would get a paint or qh breeder or reputable owner over to look at him in person. IMO that would give you the best analysis of his conformation.
Why hurry if he is not for sale you have years to make the decision to keep him intact or not.
A word of warning though. That sweet little colt will be 1200 pounds of raging hormones in a few years. Train him well and with a firm patient hand to avoid any behavioral problems. That is of the utmost importance. Shalom


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## Aesthetic

dbarabians said:


> Well your going to get the Nice gelding remark so dont allow it to get to you. It is your horse. Yours to do with whatever you choose. Keep that in mind.
> I would get better pictures and wait. Once he has matured a little more his positive traits will be more apparent.
> I would get a paint or qh breeder or reputable owner over to look at him in person. IMO that would give you the best analysis of his conformation.
> Why hurry if he is not for sale you have years to make the decision to keep him intact or not.
> A word of warning though. That sweet little colt will be 1200 pounds of raging hormones in a few years. Train him well and with a firm patient hand to avoid any behavioral problems. That is of the utmost importance. Shalom


There are trainers around here who are very very good at helping teach a stallion manners. If he's anything like his daddy, he won't be to much to deal with.
Thank you


----------



## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Agree also Druydess that different breeds have different goals.
> I know several QH and Paint breeders that test their stallions virility as soon as possible.
> If one of the things I insist on when choosing a stallion is seeing the siblings and any offspring then it only makes sense to breed that animal if it is not in training.
> That way when the horse is retired to the breeding shed full time there are examples of what it can do. Why wait several more years promoting a stallion when there is so much competition from proven stallions with progeny already on the ground , showing or in competition?
> I dont breed racehorses yet. Arabians cannot race until they are a true 3 years of age. So what harm does it do to collect or breed a 2 YO?
> From what i have observed in the past and talking to others NONE. Shalom


I think it's somewhat ironic that TB's are raced at 2, nowhere near mature, snapping bones, and ruined for life due to early stress on their joints and bones, and it's just fine.. 
But breed a horse, especially one that's younger, and OMG-- those panties bunch up a wad the size of Kansas. :shock:
Wadded panties notwithstanding, whatever decisions breeders make with regard to THEIR horses depends entirely on the horse. Each one has to be assessed individually.


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## Muppetgirl

Druydess said:


> I think it's somewhat ironic that TB's are raced at 2, nowhere near mature, snapping bones, and ruined for life due to early stress on their joints and bones, and it's just fine..
> But breed a horse, especially one that's younger, and OMG-- those panties bunch up a wad the size of Kansas. :shock:
> Wadded panties notwithstanding, whatever decisions breeders make with regard to THEIR horses depends entirely on the horse. Each one has to be assessed individually.


It's not 'just fine' that Tbs are raced at two, and it is quite worthy of causing 'wadded panties' as you so graciously describe it. It's out in the open, however I've seen plenty of people fry up young and old horses and just dump them. It's not just solely the TB racing industry that does it, it's quite alive and kicking in a lot of industries, even yours:shock: (gasp) 

Breeding is an industry based on the ethics and morals of being aware of what you are creating genetically. You are speaking of training in your reference to TBs - whether training happens at two, three or ten years of age has no bearing or relevance on whether or not a breeder chooses to breed a horse at two or five - it's not the breeding horse that gets hurt, it's the potential offspring if the breeder has not done their homework.


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## Druydess

Exactly! Thanks for making my point!


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## Muppetgirl

Druydess said:


> Exactly! Thanks for making my point!


I wasn't making your point, I was stating that you are comparing apples to oranges. :shock:

Comparing racing Tbs at two and breaking them down is not the same as breeding two year olds, which actually IMO carries just as big inherent risk to future offspring, because at TWO one absolutely cannot be certain of what they are breeding. Papers are papers, easy to read and research........a DNA strand split and unravelled not so. Papers also don't say - weak hip, short stubby neck and pencil legs. So unless someone has a crystal ball and can predict the future IMO I'd not risk breeding 'looks good on paper' to 'looks good on paper' until I was certain the animal had performed (as in under saddle at a higher than mediocre level) and remained solid for a few years.

JMHO.


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## Druydess

Apples and Oranges? Not really. You certainly did make my point. 

The proof's in the pudding, as they say. Breeding at TEN or FIFTEEN doesn't give certainty to breeding. 

I've got more than paper to look at.  I have produced exactly what I expected (actually better than I expected) and I'm very happy with the results. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I'm going to go with prepotency, research, observable/desirable traits, breeding/trait patterns in bloodlines and families, and educated decisions. 

But most importantly, I'm going to go by what a stallion can PRODUCE.


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## Muppetgirl

I guess this is why I have a deep respect for the success of Germany and their marketing and breeding regulations.


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## Druydess

Muppetgirl said:


> I guess this is why I have a deep respect for the success of Germany and their marketing and breeding regulations.


Ich bin sicher, der ein interessanter Platz sein würde zu leben. Sie haben schöne Araber.

I'm sure that would be an interesting place to live. They have lovely Arabians.

I favor the Spanish Arabians for the same reason. It's one of the reasons I have incorporated those lines.


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## MsBHavin

ah, good ol' google translate....


I think the OP is starting off on the right foot. The want and ability to prove her horse in something other than the fact his testicles work, is giving her a head start in a great direction. I am excited to see how he progresses.


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## Druydess

Aesthetic said:


> Alright, I might make a critique thread for him in Conformation Critique, I just don't like hearing people say "Would Be A Nice Gelding" before he's done any growing.


You'll get that-- just ignore them. It's better to wait until he's a bit older. When they're babies, it's too hard to judge accurately.


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## Druydess

Chiilaa said:


> Inbreeding doesn't "produce" problems, it can highlight them is all. The problems have to be in the genetic code to start with. Inbreeding doesn't cause mutations, or two headed foals, or anything like that.
> 
> Comparing horses to humans in something like this is like comparing apples and oranges. Horses don't have any sense of "family" - they have a sense of herd, but care nothing for blood relationships.


Good points!

For others who'd like to know more, I found this article quite interesting.

Why Inbreeding


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## dbarabians

Muppetgirl you always run the risk of passing on faults with any stallion. Especially an unproven one whether at 2 or 5 or 10.
None of the people I know that breed at 2 do so on a large scale. 
As posted Cassius will cover 3 mares only for the first few years. Not 30.
Then lets not forget the mares in the equation. They have as much to say about what the foal inherits as the sire. He will cover proven broodmares for his own safety and because I know what they throw.
Plus Cassius is in a 10 acre pasture bucking kicking running just being a horse without being confined. He hasnt since the day he was born. Before I picked him up he was running with his dam in a herd of 12 horses on 30 acres. If there were faults that were not visible physically we would have seen them by now. If not he could be ridden for years before they show up.
I will never break a horse to saddle before it is 3 or 4 if it is still developing.
You make a good point though about the greater risk of breeding a young stallion. What you posted is true. The young horse doing the breeding is not in danger it is the foal produced from the cross that is at risk. Something for the OP and I to consider. Shalom


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## Muppetgirl

Thanks Donald, you understood what I was saying. I appreciate that


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## reiningfan

As to the op's question. When looking at a stallion prospect, I want good bloodlines for the discipline I am breeding for, correct conformation, once again, for that discipline. I also want excellent temperament. That said, I wouldn't want a dead head cutting prospect, I just want one that has a head on his neck that can listen and be a respectful horse.
Also, and this is the most important part, I want them to handle training well. Not halter/in hand training. Under saddle. I have handled a few stallions that were great on the ground. Start expecting some work out of them, and they became snotty and resentful. Some work out of that because they were just ticked that their life of leisure was over, some are genuine ******s to work with. That passes on, believe me.
I wouldn't want a couple foals on the ground, only to find out that their sire is fabulous to handle on the ground but a pain in the hiney under saddle. If all a person has is halter horses, then whatever, but if they aren't halter horses, they are saddle horses and what good is a hard to train saddle horse who doesn't enjoy his job?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Muppetgirl you always run the risk of passing on faults with any stallion. Especially an unproven one whether at 2 or 5 or 10.
> None of the people I know that breed at 2 do so on a large scale.
> As posted Cassius will cover 3 mares only for the first few years. Not 30.
> Then lets not forget the mares in the equation. They have as much to say about what the foal inherits as the sire. He will cover proven broodmares for his own safety and because I know what they throw.
> Plus Cassius is in a 10 acre pasture bucking kicking running just being a horse without being confined. He hasnt since the day he was born. Before I picked him up he was running with his dam in a herd of 12 horses on 30 acres. If there were faults that were not visible physically we would have seen them by now. If not he could be ridden for years before they show up.
> I will never break a horse to saddle before it is 3 or 4 if it is still developing.
> You make a good point though about the greater risk of breeding a young stallion. What you posted is true. The young horse doing the breeding is not in danger it is the foal produced from the cross that is at risk. Something for the OP and I to consider. Shalom


Nothing is ever a guarantee. Recently, there was a filly born to an extremely exotic well known, well shown and marketed stallion by an equally exotic, beautiful mare after the owner spent over 20K trying to get her in foal. The filly is a massive disappointment as she is overly plain- headed and has absolutely no resemblance to her parents. The owners of said stallion spent huge amounts of money purchasing him, showing him, and now- they are finding he is a horrible producer. A foal is at risk with parents of any age, unless the parents have get that can be analyzed.
I can rest easy now while Dream is in training as I know he can produce. I'm relieved I won't have to face what the owners of said stallion did.
The best we can do is make informed decisions about our choices and be prepared to care for the foals in any circumstance.


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## Druydess

I forgot to mention Donald, I also will not start a horse before 3 or 4 due to their muscular/skeletal development. And then only lightly at first. This is where the time factor invested in a stallion can turn into years before one knows his true breeding potential if one waits to breed. But, if that's another's choice, and they have the time and money to take that gamble, great for them.


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## reiningfan

One foal does not a bad producer make. Many stallions and mares just aren't the right choice for each other, there are other factors as well. I've seen people with short necked, straight shouldered foals brag on about their quality, so I usually judge for myself first and then get the pros to judge further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> One foal does not a bad producer make. Many stallions and mares just aren't the right choice for each other, there are other factors as well. I've seen people with short necked, straight shouldered foals brag on about their quality, so I usually judge for myself first and then get the pros to judge further.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed.. problem is - with the aforementioned case, it wasn't just one.. it was sadly, a pattern.
Everything has to be evaluated to make the best decision. 
Getting the pros' input in very important. The International Judges opinions and other respected breeders' input have been an immense help to me. Nothing beats an in-person assessment. I recommend it highly.


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## reiningfan

As long as they aren't people that are paid to give an assessment. Then you get some 'yes man' answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> As long as they aren't people that are paid to give an assessment. Then you get some 'yes man' answers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Couldn't agree with you more. Mine were unsolicited, which gives them more weight in my book. They chose to give opinions after gravitating toward several of the 22 horses on the farm. 3 of mine consistently captured their attention on separate occasions. That in an of itself speaks volumes.
None of them show my horses and none currently do business with me; I have nothing I want to sell at present. They had no incentive to blow smoke.. :wink:


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## reiningfan

What I was taught was to get opinions from professionals at the top of the game. For me, that wouldn't be people winning at open or local level shows, in Arabs, that would be asking for pros in breed shows and such. I'm not a sport horse fan, I think its good for them to have a venue in which to be shown though. 
For the OP, you plan on marketing him as a barrel sire? Ask the 1D winners who are also bringing along their own prospects, not just the people riding started or made horses. Ask other breeders who have horses doing well and that you like. 
Its ok to some extent to breed for what you like, but if you want to market a stallion, you need to go for what can produce winners and that can be a hard market to crack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

Druydess said:


> You'll get that-- just ignore them. It's better to wait until he's a bit older. When they're babies, it's too hard to judge accurately.


I see it everywhere aha, Thank You


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## Aesthetic

reiningfan said:


> What I was taught was to get opinions from professionals at the top of the game. For me, that wouldn't be people winning at open or local level shows, in Arabs, that would be asking for pros in breed shows and such. I'm not a sport horse fan, I think its good for them to have a venue in which to be shown though.
> For the OP, you plan on marketing him as a barrel sire? Ask the 1D winners who are also bringing along their own prospects, not just the people riding started or made horses. Ask other breeders who have horses doing well and that you like.
> Its ok to some extent to breed for what you like, but if you want to market a stallion, you need to go for what can produce winners and that can be a hard market to crack.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very hard market, If his conformation is nice and his manners stay well, I will see what he gives me under saddle prospect wise. If I feel he doesn't have the speed, patience, or desire to finish a barrel pattern he'll definitely be cut.

In my area there are probably...two decent stallions to breed a barrel horse from. Over used stallions really, ones absolutely stunning, a nice black quarter horse stallion. Great handle on the barrels. Another is a crazy bay stallion. When I rode my paint stallion at local races, the bay one lunged at him. 
Definitely not a stallion i'd consider competition....or much of an example to how stallions should act.

Most horses out here used in barrels are either grades that have what it takes to win money around these shows, or some registered horses farm trained by their owners and still have what it makes. The industry out here isn't to large.

As for asking what people wish for in a barrel stallion, people out here aren't much of help. Most people need a nice large rear end, speed, and thick shoulders and would let it mount their mare without looking at anything else.


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## dbarabians

All 3 of my stallions impressed me in different ways.
Star was a proven sire with foals and mares at the place I got him.
What he passed on to them caught my attention. I was not looking for a stallion. Then I saw his pedigree but the deal clincher was watching her walk him through a herd of mares some of whom were in foal with no problem. 
Sam was a winning proven race horse from the leading sire of arabian race horses. He won his first race by 13 lengths. Plus he was free.
Cassius was out of a mare I would hock my teeth to own and by a stallion that I intended to use as an outcross for my mares and foals. He resembles both in ways that I like. Shalom


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## Druydess

I have been fortunate enough to have met and become friends with some top trainers who currently show and judge, one recently came back from judging Arabs in Brazil. These were the handlers of Padron, El Shaklan, Versace, worked at Rohara and Rojo as trainers/handlers, who have judged Salon du Cheval, South Africa, Uruguay, etc., and so on and they visit our farm regularly.

I don't settle for yahoo opinions..LOL

I think you give excellent advice to the OP Reining. It can be a challenge to find one's niche.


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## reiningfan

Op, can I ask how he is bred? He's cute and has a motor now, I hope he turns out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

reiningfan said:


> Op, can I ask how he is bred? He's cute and has a motor now, I hope he turns out for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't link on my phone well. So ill give you his dam and sires names 

Dam- Wamps Poco Lynx

Sire- MissQuanahsDeltaChief


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## NdAppy

Here you go

Dam - Wamps Poco Lynx Quarter Horse

Sire - Missquanahsdeltachief Paint


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## Aesthetic

NdAppy said:


> Here you go
> 
> Dam - Wamps Poco Lynx Quarter Horse
> 
> Sire - Missquanahsdeltachief Paint


Thanks


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## dbarabians

I am always in awe of what NDappy knows and can do with a computer. Shalom


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## NdAppy

dbarabians said:


> I am always in awe of what NDappy knows and can do with a computer. Shalom


:rofl: Not that complicated. I just copied and pasted the links to the pedigrees. :rofl:


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## Golden Horse

dbarabians said:


> I am always in awe of what NDappy knows and can do with a computer. Shalom


Don't be in awe,


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## reiningfan

While there isn't much speed breeding there, he does has a lot of cow bred horses further back. 
Unfortunately, unless he really performs well, he doesn't have a pedigree that hollers 'barrels & poles'. That is why he will need to prove himself and do it well, if you want to stand him at stud. 

I'm going to answer some of what else has been said in this thread. I believe breeding animals should be proven. Whether that be in the show pen or through work or through their offspring. You can't say a stallion has proven himself if all he has done is produced a cute baby. That has proven that his testicles work. Once that foal is older and has been started under saddle and starting to be used, then I can admit to the stallion as a proven animal. Until then, what do you know about the foal? Even good looking horses that are a dream to handle on the ground can be complete bums to start under saddle, and as I have said before, what good is a hard to start horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

^I don't think it's just about proving themselves. It's about conformation and personality, too. I wouldn't want to breed a horse that can jump the moon, throws pretty babies, but has a nasty attitude.


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## Druydess

Zexious said:


> ^I don't think it's just about proving themselves. It's about conformation and personality, too. I wouldn't want to breed a horse that can jump the moon, throws pretty babies, but has a nasty attitude.


I agree. I turned down some babies/horses in the past that had sires with National titles because they were nuttier than fruitcakes. Ribbons did nothing for the expectation of a sane horse. That is the very reason I chose Golden Ecstasy as a sire to my 2 colts. Both are tractable, sane, willing, not to mention having conformation, beauty, and movement. That's more valuable to me than a dubious title that has more to do with politics and money than actual quality.
It all depends on priorities. You can have it both ways, but one doesn't guarantee the other.


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## Druydess

For those who have Arabians, here's an excellent article that sums up the status of the Arab Show world. I'm sad to say, in the short time I've been showing, I have found much truth in it. Quite the reality-check.
It is a lose-lose for most people.

| ARABIAN HORSE WORLD | Letters to the World |

Other breeds may have better environments/regulations for showing, but what I've seen is very disturbing. Make choices based on many things, not just who has what ribbon.


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## dbarabians

Druydess once again words of wisdom from a very savvy breeder.
That article rings true not only for the Arabian horse but most breeds.
I do not care about a show record if it only means someone paid the right trainer enough money to teach a horse walk trot and canter round an arena in front of a panel of judges that might not be as impartial as they paid to be.
THE ONLY WAY to prove a stallion is by his get.
He can have dozens of national titles but if he does not pass that gift unto his progeny then he is a failure. Or if the owners of his get do not spend the money to train his offspring he is a failure.
Confromation and temperament are more important to the average horse owner than any show record will ever be. Most horses will never enter a showring. They require no ribbons to validate the quality of their horses.
My stallion Star has never been shown but has an impeccable pedigree and great conformation. He has stamped his offspring with good arabian type, straight legs, versatlity, and great temperament . Those are the only qualities IMO that earn a stallion the right to remain intact. Shalom


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## Fourteen

I am by no means a show snob. But one purpose that showing a stud serves is to prove he can do something besides run around and take pictures. You want to prove your horse has "tractability" and "disposition" and all those other catchphrases that people love to throw around? Put your money where your big mouth is. Train your stud to do something before breeding him. At least prove that he can be ridden outside the round pen. If he's so calm and gentle, let's see pictures of him under saddle being calm and obedient. This means a stud owner is going to have to wait until the horse is well under saddle before breeding. 

There's not one piece of this equation that is more valuable than the other. A good disposition doesn't win over crappy conformation, nor does colour or a pretty head mean more than a good mind. A stallion should have the entire package before being allowed to stand to a number of outside mares. Obviously you will won't know what the stud will produce before doing a test breeding or two, but for heavens sake, TRAIN your stud for something. I'm sick of seeing people who claim to have a top quality stud, when all they've done with the horse is run it around and take pictures. 

There is a local stud who I would breed to in a heartbeat should I be so inclined. Does he have a world class show record? Nope. But he has fantastic conformation and a child could ride him. He has a job besides making babies. He gets ridden regularly and the owner has the pics to prove it. That stud is way more impressive and worthy of being bred than many many stallions I see being pimped out online who have no credentials besides being a subject of endless useless pictures, while their owners fill endless posts with name dropping and hyperbole that has no solid basis.


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## reiningfan

I agree, Fourteen, a stallion should be the total package and only way to truly prove disposition and tractable natural is to ride them. So many people spout disposition, but what are they like to ride and start?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

^I agree. A stud should be an optimal example of a breed, it's that simple.


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## Druydess

Zexious said:


> ^I agree. A stud should be an optimal example of a breed, it's that simple.


Very much I agree. I'm very happy to have such. Takes quite a bit of research, looking at prospects, time, and money to find excellent stud prospects with great conformation, a great mind, and usability. 

Dream is just such a horse and Psynny looks headed in the right direction as well and it is even more satisfying to have such a nice colt bred for the very reasons mentioned.. I am very fortunate and db, I believe you are as well. Star seems a wonderful horse! :lol:


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## Golden Horse

dbarabians said:


> Druydess once again words of wisdom from a very savvy breeder.
> That article rings true not only for the Arabian horse but most breeds.
> I do not care about a show record if it only means someone paid the right trainer enough money to teach a horse walk trot and canter round an arena in front of a panel of judges that might not be as impartial as they paid to be.
> THE ONLY WAY to prove a stallion is by his get.
> He can have dozens of national titles but if he does not pass that gift unto his progeny then he is a failure. Or if the owners of his get do not spend the money to train his offspring he is a failure.
> Confromation and temperament are more important to the average horse owner than any show record will ever be. Most horses will never enter a showring. They require no ribbons to validate the quality of their horses.
> My stallion Star has never been shown but has an impeccable pedigree and great conformation. He has stamped his offspring with good arabian type, straight legs, versatlity, and great temperament . Those are the only qualities IMO that earn a stallion the right to remain intact. Shalom



While I agree that the only way a stallion really proves himself is by his get, there should be a step before he has any get where he actually proves himself, and it doesn't have to be with a world title. If he is a reiner, get out and rein, jumper, get out and jump, all around trail horse, get out and ride him on the trail.

How many breeds have classification shows? My Haflinger stud was Silver Classified and had a show record, he had proved himself against his breed standard, do other breeds have that?

While conformation and temperament are indeed the most important qualities that an average owner looks for they should not be the prime reason for breeding. 

The old adage never changes, breed the best to the best and hope for the best.


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## Fourteen

reiningfan said:


> I agree, Fourteen, a stallion should be the total package and only way to truly prove disposition and tractable natural is to ride them. So many people spout disposition, but what are they like to ride and start?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. If you can't post pictures and proof of your stud under saddle actually doing something useful, then what proof do you?


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## MsBHavin

Fourteen said:


> Exactly. If you can't post pictures and proof of your stud under saddle actually doing something useful, then what proof do you?.


Too many horses going to slaughter every day to breed horses you can't register, ride, or do anything other than shake a stick at.


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## reiningfan

I had trouble posting pics of my one stallion when I had mine, because mostly I was the one on him, with nobody to bring to take pics, so I made the effort and got some taken. Lost them when my computer died, unfortunately. 
My other stallion was shown in reining, first by a pro, then non pro and after we gelded him, was shown by a few youths. 
That's just part of the package, the first stallion produced great youth/amateur horses and I have loads of pictures and videos to prove that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fourteen

reiningfan said:


> I had trouble posting pics of my one stallion when I had mine, because mostly I was the one on him, with nobody to bring to take pics, so I made the effort and got some taken. Lost them when my computer died, unfortunately.
> My other stallion was shown in reining, first by a pro, then non pro and after we gelded him, was shown by a few youths.
> That's just part of the package, the first stallion produced great youth/amateur horses and I have loads of pictures and videos to prove that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, this is what a breeder of quality would do. If you are intending to run a "breeding operation" that any one is going to take seriously, then you get those pictures/proof no matter how you have to arrange going about it. Its part of the whole package.


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## MsBHavin

Fourteen said:


> Again, this is what a breeder of quality would do. If you are intending to run a "breeding operation" that any one is going to take seriously, then you get those pictures/proof no matter how you have to arrange going about it. Its part of the whole package.


That is what I LOVE about great breeders. They KNOW what they have, they don't have to come online and try to prove it. The woman who bred my Fjord is an amazing breeder. She knows the lines inside and out, took the time to talk with me and figure out what horse would suit me best. We talked for a good year before I settled on my boy, he is EVERYTHING I could have asked for.

His breeder also goes above and beyond in showing her horses. She drives them in classes, ALL of her foals have gone on to have amazing careers as riding and show horses. I see daily posts on her Facebook of all her 'children' out and about showing their little hearts out. It is such a great thing to see.


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## Lockwood

Fourteen said:


> Exactly. If you can't post pictures and proof of your stud under saddle actually doing something useful, then what proof do you have?.


There are all kinds of horse owners out there. Some feel riding (or rideability) ranks at the very top of the list. 
Some don’t.
I’m betting the lady who uses a motorized wheel chair for mobility because she is paralyzed probably doesn’t care about the rideability of a horse or youngster she is looking to buy. 
Owning horses can sometimes be on the same level as just owning a good pet because people see beauty in different ways.

The joy and happiness one can find from owning, interacting with, caring, or even ground training can be just as fulfilling.
Yep…lots of ways to own and enjoy horses, and lots of ways to market to the masses.


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## reiningfan

That's very true, but the majority of the horse buying public uses their horses for riding or driving. No point in breeding for the people who just want pets to look at it in the pasture. There are many who come out of purpose bred programs that will fit that bill. 
Halter horses are a whole different ballgame, eespecially in the stock breeds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin

Lockwood said:


> There are all kinds of horse owners out there. Some feel riding (or rideability) ranks at the very top of the list.
> Some don’t.
> I’m betting the lady who uses a motorized wheel chair for mobility because she is paralyzed probably doesn’t care about the rideability of a horse or youngster she is looking to buy.
> Owning horses can sometimes be on the same level as just owning a good pet because people see beauty in different ways.
> 
> The joy and happiness one can find from owning, interacting with, caring, or even ground training can be just as fulfilling.
> Yep…lots of ways to own and enjoy horses, and lots of ways to market to the masses.



How many disabled people have the funding to actually own a horse, how many disabled people have the space, time or ability to work with a horse? That doesn't mean that people who foolishly pump out foals they have NO goals and or homes for, are breeding for that type of owner.


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## Golden Horse

I agree 100% that there are all sorts of owners who buy for all sorts of reasons, but simply breeding to be pretty seems to fall short to me. To strive to breed the best looking animal for a purpose makes perfect sense, because there will be those who don't make the grade, and they become the pretty pasture pets for those who want them.


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## tinyliny

MsBHavin said:


> How many disabled people have the funding to actually own a horse, how many disabled people have the space, time or ability to work with a horse? That doesn't mean that people who foolishly pump out foals they have NO goals and or homes for, are breeding for that type of owner.


\
Isn't " people who pump out" foals" from a stallion that is never ridden, or has very little ridden life experience something one could say about a fair number of QH breeders? They breed horses that are for halter showing, so their ridability is pretty unimportant. The stud is so beefy, with shrunken feet, that to ride him is to kill him. Does this fall into the same category of breeders blowing hot air? lot's of glitzy photos of the horses giant backside, but horse has feet that will not carry him 5 miles under saddle.


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## Lockwood

MsBHavin said:


> How many disabled people have the funding to actually own a horse, how many disabled people have the space, time or ability to work with a horse? That doesn't mean that people who foolishly pump out foals they have NO goals and or homes for, are breeding for that type of owner.


More than you might think. 
I never said they did.


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## reiningfan

Tinyliny, that's why halter horses are a whole other ballgame. They are purpose bred not to be rideable, but to match a certain conformational type. Not one I agree with, but hopefully breeders will start nreeding for correct again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin

tinyliny said:


> \
> Isn't " people who pump out" foals" from a stallion that is never ridden, or has very little ridden life experience something one could say about a fair number of QH breeders? They breed horses that are for halter showing, so their ridability is pretty unimportant. The stud is so beefy, with shrunken feet, that to ride him is to kill him. Does this fall into the same category of breeders blowing hot air? lot's of glitzy photos of the horses giant backside, but horse has feet that will not carry him 5 miles under saddle.


Sure. Which is why I'm not naming names, It's a general statement of people who cannot do anything with their horses except pump them out and take action shots of their horses doing nothing impressive. Although if breeders were better and not so willing to breed crap animals, the horse market wouldn't be where it is today


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## Lockwood

Golden Horse said:


> I agree 100% that there are all sorts of owners who buy for all sorts of reasons, but simply breeding to be pretty seems to fall short to me. To strive to breed the best looking animal for a purpose makes perfect sense, because there will be those who don't make the grade, and they become the pretty pasture pets for those who want them.


 But isn't that why we have so many different breeds of dogs....cats....and partly horses...??
And, the reasons why they have changed so drastically over the last 100 years or so? People can be very fickle and we have a long history of being fickle. 
I've been around long enough to see some big changes in the horse world...some alarming changes too.

Sure, it may not make sense to someone like you or me, who likes to ride, but it does make sense to someone somewhere. Or, it makes money.
Why else would we have so many different breeds of the same species of animal.


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## reiningfan

For different purposes. I would not buy the same horse to use as a hunter, wp mount or reiner. We develop them for specific uses, its like choosing the right tool for the job. I don't need a tool in order to do nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

Lockwood said:


> There are all kinds of horse owners out there. Some feel riding (or rideability) ranks at the very top of the list.
> Some don’t.
> I’m betting the lady who uses a motorized wheel chair for mobility because she is paralyzed probably doesn’t care about the rideability of a horse or youngster she is looking to buy.
> Owning horses can sometimes be on the same level as just owning a good pet because people see beauty in different ways.
> 
> The joy and happiness one can find from owning, interacting with, caring, or even ground training can be just as fulfilling.
> Yep…lots of ways to own and enjoy horses, and lots of ways to market to the masses.


This fact is an important one. Not everyone breeds for the same reasons, nor should they. What is valued by one person, may be useless to another. It's not a cookie-cutter endeavor.
I find foal-rearing immensely enjoyable and rewarding. I'd just as soon spend time bonding with a horse as ride it. They are more than just work animals or a ribbon to brag about.
As to your comment about a disabled person owning horses. I know several who ride and ride regularly. They do own and care for their horses and have taken greater care with necessary training for their needs. One has had a stroke, with little use of her left side, and that doesn't stop her from doing everything for her horse, including riding. One lady runs an entire business of therapy horses for disabled people. This is how she makes a living. None of her horses have National titles. They hold up to frequent physical demands just fine. And none of the kids/adults who ride them give a single hoot about titles - only that they get to do something they love with sound, sane horses someone thought were worth more than a show record.


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## tinyliny

MsBHavin said:


> Sure. Which is why I'm not naming names, It's a general statement of people who cannot do anything with their horses except pump them out and take action shots of their horses doing nothing impressive. Although if breeders were better and not so willing to breed crap animals, the horse market wouldn't be where it is today



I guess i was responding to the comments by several who said you could not have a stud of any value who has not proven himself under saddle.

However, I get your point that the get of such a non-ridden stud is bred to be pretty, to stand and be judged on being pretty, not to be ridden.

that in and of itself is baffling to me, but that's another thread.

But, it does mean that for some situations, whether the stud has proven himself under saddle or not is irrelevant, so one cannot make it a blanket statement that promoting a stud who is not ridden is wrong. I think it's done quite a lot in some breed areas.


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## MyLittlePonies

I'm not in on the other parts of the discussion, but to answer the original question.

When I look at stallions, I look for conformation, movement, disposition, show records (if injured-why?), produce records (if any), and bloodlines. I like to see if the stallion will compliment my mare. I'm big on disposition and I wont look at a stallion without manners or a stallion with nasty habits (rearing, kicking, etc)...

I believe that a stallion should be a package deal and offer me something worth my money if I'm going to spend thousands.


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## Fourteen

tinyliny said:


> \
> Isn't " people who pump out" foals" from a stallion that is never ridden, or has very little ridden life experience something one could say about a fair number of QH breeders? They breed horses that are for halter showing, so their ridability is pretty unimportant. The stud is so beefy, with shrunken feet, that to ride him is to kill him. Does this fall into the same category of breeders blowing hot air? lot's of glitzy photos of the horses giant backside, but horse has feet that will not carry him 5 miles under saddle.


Yes, this is as stupid as lots of glitzy photos of teacup heads and flagging tails.

I do not agree with breeding strictly for halter, going to such faddish extremes that the horse has no foreseeable future prospects of longevity or even soundness. Its irresponsible. These are lives we are creating and we owe it to the horses to ensure they have the best possible chance of good homes and good health. 

And I don't mean to offend anyone but there is no need for breeding unproven horses for the disabled horse owner market. That is completely grasping at straws to justify a sub-par breeding done on purpose IMO. There are so SO many horses out there that could fit the bill. And besides, if that's the market you are aiming your advertising at,then you better prove that your stud excells at being used by a disabled rider/driver/handler.

Again, prove that your breeding stock serves some useful purpose before claiming you are a high class breeding operation, or you are no better than a BYB.


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## reiningfan

That is an admiral thing to do, running a therapeutic riding school, but not something that needs a breeding program. 
This is what people seem to not be getting. We have an overpopulation of horses. There is zero need to breed for mediocre when you can buy well bred horses with super dispositions out of proven programs. You don't need to breed just to breed, ypu need to have an end purpose and a defined goal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lockwood

reiningfan said:


> For different purposes. I would not buy the same horse to use as a hunter, wp mount or reiner. We develop them for specific uses, its like choosing the right tool for the job. I don't need a tool in order to do nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It was a hypothetical question. :wink:
For some animals, horses included, their purpose is to please the eye of the owner or breeder.


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## Fourteen

Lockwood said:


> It was a hypothetical question. :wink:
> For some animals, horses included, their purpose is to please the eye of the owner or breeder.


True. But if you are a breeder claiming that your horse has a great mind and is easily trainable, then by George TRAIN IT to do something....ANYTHING....besides run around and take pictures.

If that's all you're breeding for than stop pretending you have something more than that until you can prove that you do.


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## Druydess

Lockwood said:


> It was a hypothetical question. :wink:
> For some animals, horses included, their purpose is to please the eye of the owner or breeder.


Very good point. Though not the only reason I breed, it is a highly rewarding one. This is especially relevant when one has the resources, time, and energy to fully participate and enjoy such an endeavor. I am very fortunate to have that advantage; I know not everyone does, however, when you work very hard most of your life, it is that much sweeter when such a blessing is yours. I can only wish the same good fortune on others, in whatever way they prefer to it to be manifested. Ultimately, the only one that needs to be pleased, is the owner/breeder.
I am enjoying breeding Arabians immensely and look forward to more great experiences and friendships born of mutual interest and respect.


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## Lockwood

Fourteen said:


> True. But if you are a breeder claiming that your horse has a great mind and is easily trainable, then by George TRAIN IT to do something....ANYTHING....besides run around and take pictures.
> 
> If that's all you're breeding for than stop pretending you have something more than that until you can prove that you do.


I'm not disagreeing with you here. But we can't make another horse owner train or photograph their horses the way _we_ want them to. 
We just can't.
There are too many differing opinions on what constitutes good or pleasing.

I tend to think that anyone considering choosing a stallion needs to educate themselves deeply about the breed and know exactly what they are looking for.
Often times in this world it is "buyer beware." Horse are no different and the best defense someone has is education and research.


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## Fourteen

Lockwood said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you here. But we can't make another horse owner train or photograph their horses the way _we_ want them to.
> We just can't.
> There are too many differing opinions on what constitutes good or pleasing.
> 
> I tend to think that anyone considering choosing a stallion needs to educate themselves deeply about the breed and know exactly what they are looking for.
> Often times in this world it is "buyer beware." Horse are no different and the best defense someone has is education and research.


Ain't that the truth. Especially in a world where the internet allows people to craftily market themselves and their breeding stock, when really they are deceiving themselves and others. Its upsetting because the horses are the ones that suffer. If theres one thing to be learned its this: "the proof is in the pudding". No matter what anyone says, if you can't prove it, its not true.


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## Druydess

tinyliny said:


> I guess i was responding to the comments by several who said you could not have a stud of any value who has not proven himself under saddle.
> 
> However, I get your point that the get of such a non-ridden stud is bred to be pretty, to stand and be judged on being pretty, not to be ridden.
> 
> that in and of itself is baffling to me, but that's another thread.
> 
> But, it does mean that for some situations, whether the stud has proven himself under saddle or not is irrelevant, so one cannot make it a blanket statement that promoting a stud who is not ridden is wrong. I think it's done quite a lot in some breed areas.


I think part of the problem is that online, erroneous assumptions are often made, and are usually-terribly wrong. I, as well as other breeders I know, do not post every aspect of our and our horses' lives in minute detail on forums. I have horses that have never been posted here. One of mine does barrels, another is is cutting cattle, and 4 are in training, one in Competitive Trail. Some have show records and some are in training to show. Do I need to announce it everywhere? I think not. It's really not anyone's business.
Making assumptions about what breeders or owners may choose to share on forums or not is counter-productive. It really has no bearing on the inclusiveness and reality of real life.
When someone is genuinely interested in any of my horses, they will be privy to all they'd like to know and be invited to evaluate my horses as extensively as they like. Currently, none are for sale. Until circumstances change as to what I feel is post-worthy or terribly interesting, I am enjoying the opportunity to share a few highlights of my choosing here with great friends.


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## Fourteen

This thread is not about all the minute details of the lives of every horse owned by a breeder. Its about what to look for in a stallion when choosing who to breed to, or who to choose to use as a stud. We all agree that disposition, conformation, and trainability are key components. That being said, any reputable breeder will of course be willing and able to prove their claims about their stud's qualifications. If the breeder chooses to post about their stud online and make such claims, it is reasonable that people reading such posts would expect some proof. Especially, ad has already been mentioned, since people can say whatever they want to online with very little accountability.


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Druydess once again words of wisdom from a very savvy breeder.
> That article rings true not only for the Arabian horse but most breeds.
> I do not care about a show record if it only means someone paid the right trainer enough money to teach a horse walk trot and canter round an arena in front of a panel of judges that might not be as impartial as they paid to be.
> THE ONLY WAY to prove a stallion is by his get.
> He can have dozens of national titles but if he does not pass that gift unto his progeny then he is a failure. Or if the owners of his get do not spend the money to train his offspring he is a failure.
> Confromation and temperament are more important to the average horse owner than any show record will ever be. Most horses will never enter a showring. They require no ribbons to validate the quality of their horses.
> My stallion Star has never been shown but has an impeccable pedigree and great conformation. He has stamped his offspring with good arabian type, straight legs, versatlity, and great temperament . Those are the only qualities IMO that earn a stallion the right to remain intact. Shalom


Thanks db. It is all relative. I once saw- at a high level show-- the 2 best stallions compete. One was calm, respectful, and balanced- did everything by the book, and he competed against a crooked-legged, National stallion that was, on the side, witnessed by me and others, abused by his handlers, crazy and fearful, and so hyped up, he could barely keep himself together.
Guess who won..
The nut-case. And I know that National name now. I will NEVER breed to him.
Be careful how much weight you put on a ribbon. You may just get what you wish for.


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## reiningfan

That's why you do research. You don't just chose a stallion based on what he has won. You look for the total package. 
What I look for are: good conformation, trainability, bloodlines, show record of the stallion and his parents. If there is no show record, I want to know why. Did he get hurt? That's often a catch phrase for broke down in training, or didn't handle training. 
Disposition is great, but how does that disposition translate into useability? A lot of the time, I would rather a standoffish, respectful horse over a pocket pets. Pocket pets tend to be resentful in training. 
Winning, especially at halter, doesn't mean the horse is the best, but it can give you an idea of physical ability and whether their mind and body can handle training and showing. 
If I want just a buddy or trail horse, I buy a well bred 'cull' out of a program I respect and admire. Which is why my trail horse is the son of a stallion that has over a half dozen national championship titles to his name and his get have national, reserve national and year end high point awards. He wasn't expensive and I love him to pieces and I know that his breeder starts all of her mares and quickly culls out the hard to train ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

The main reason people show their stallions and mares is to promote them as breeding stock.
That is the only reason Cassius will ever be shown. I dont care for ribbons and the expense of showing even on the regional level is IMO not worth the return.
However, Cassius has an impeccable pedigree, and there are plenty of horses that IMO should be bred solely for that reason if they have great conformation and temperament, It is just harder to promote such a stallion.
I am not breeding 20,000 dollar weanlings for the show ring. I dont want to. If I did I would have spent 200,000$ instead of 20,000
I breed affordable correct sane arabians that are versatile.
I also believe the claim that one should breed to better the breed is quite silly.
The arabian horse has been around for thousands of years and no horse is going to IMPROVE the breed.
The best any stallion can do is to leave his mark on future generations.
To found a line of horses that contribute to the future of the breed that is a reasonable claim.
Showing proves that an owner is willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on training , show fees, transportations and equipment more than the quality of the horse. Shalom


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## reiningfan

With Arabs, maybe bettering the breed isn't the correct terminology, although I have seen some halter and sport horses that just turn me right off the breed. Breeding to standard is maybe closer to correct. 
I have stock breeds. For me, breeding is about making better. Correcting faults and having a better athlete. That's my goal. Well, basically. Ideally, I'd like a correct horse with lots of heart, with excellent gaits, that is highly trainable and has great bloodlines, that I can confidently campaign.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

dbarabians said:


> I also believe the claim that one should breed to better the breed is quite silly.


I have two reactions to that statement, first is shocked disbelief, because I strongly believe that the only reason to breed is to try and better the parents.

The second is wondering about peoples ideas of improving a breed, when this appears to be the direction that the Haflingers are taking










When they should look like this, to me










Who is improving what?


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## reiningfan

Golden Horse, I believe with Haffies, breeding should be done in order to have correct, breed standard animals. If you want something that looks like an Arab/Haffie cross, get one of those, don't breed for an entirely different type. Haffies are useful little guys and its a shame to see what some breeders are doing to the breed, including changes the breed standards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> The main reason people show their stallions and mares is to promote them as breeding stock.
> That is the only reason Cassius will ever be shown. I dont care for ribbons and the expense of showing even on the regional level is IMO not worth the return.
> However, Cassius has an impeccable pedigree, and there are plenty of horses that IMO should be bred solely for that reason if they have great conformation and temperament, It is just harder to promote such a stallion.
> I am not breeding 20,000 dollar weanlings for the show ring. I dont want to. If I did I would have spent 200,000$ instead of 20,000
> I breed affordable correct sane arabians that are versatile.
> I also believe the claim that one should breed to better the breed is quite silly.
> The arabian horse has been around for thousands of years and no horse is going to IMPROVE the breed.
> The best any stallion can do is to leave his mark on future generations.
> To found a line of horses that contribute to the future of the breed that is a reasonable claim.
> Showing proves that an owner is willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on training , show fees, transportations and equipment more than the quality of the horse. Shalom


I care little for them as well after what I have seen. I agree-- WE are arrogant enough to think we can improve upon what the Bedouins-- those who made a life centered around horses- did??
How friggin' quaint. :wink:
Ribbons mean jack to me. I don't think Bedouins have many of those.. LOL
Contributing to the future - I can buy. I plan to do that. No one will ever be able to say I bred a useless, crazy horse. I'm pretty good with that.


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## reiningfan

Bedouins didn't need ribbons, their horses proved themselves in a way modern North American Arabians can't. Comparing Bedouin horses to modern arabs is like comparing oranges to porcupines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> That's why you do research. You don't just chose a stallion based on what he has won. You look for the total package.
> What I look for are: good conformation, trainability, bloodlines, show record of the stallion and his parents. If there is no show record, I want to know why. Did he get hurt? That's often a catch phrase for broke down in training, or didn't handle training.
> Disposition is great, but how does that disposition translate into useability? A lot of the time, I would rather a standoffish, respectful horse over a pocket pets. Pocket pets tend to be resentful in training.
> Winning, especially at halter, doesn't mean the horse is the best, but it can give you an idea of physical ability and whether their mind and body can handle training and showing.
> If I want just a buddy or trail horse, I buy a well bred 'cull' out of a program I respect and admire. Which is why my trail horse is the son of a stallion that has over a half dozen national championship titles to his name and his get have national, reserve national and year end high point awards. He wasn't expensive and I love him to pieces and I know that his breeder starts all of her mares and quickly culls out the hard to train ones.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said. All horses have a purpose and a value. The total package is what I value. A ribbon means crap if a horse is beaten into it and a Judge has a favor owed. It must also be acknowledged that many horses work hard and well for years and have no "ribbon" to "calculate" their value by. I have several working 5-6 days a week, and ribbons are useless when configuring their measure.


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> Bedouins didn't need ribbons, their horses proved themselves in a way modern North American Arabians can't. Comparing Bedouin horses to modern arabs is like comparing oranges to porcupines.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HAHAHA-- NOT if you work them.. :wink:
They haven't lost centuries of genetic possibility because they are geographically skewed..
Proving them is a matter of time and course.. NOT ribbons..


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## reiningfan

That's the thing, if a horse is being worked, that can prove them as well as showing, but, it should be actual work. I took the slide plates off my reiner and roped and treated cattle on him. He worked for his keep when I needed him to. 
Pleasure/trail riding isn't usually hard enough work to see what they've got. I say usually, but please keep in mind that I am not including competitive trail riding and endurance riding in that group. Those require lots of miles of training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> That's the thing, if a horse is being worked, that can prove them as well as showing, but, it should be actual work. I took the slide plates off my reiner and roped and treated cattle on him. He worked for his keep when I needed him to.
> Pleasure/trail riding isn't usually hard enough work to see what they've got. I say usually, but please keep in mind that I am not including competitive trail riding and endurance riding in that group. Those require lots of miles of training.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So-- wouldn't "work" be actual work? 

If not-- what would it be?
I don't know about other people-- but mine are getting pretty athletic with the trails we ride..

Mine get quite a bit of work-- trail and otherwise, and being Arabs- they take most of it in stride.. so to speak. :wink:


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## reiningfan

Trail riding doesn't prove much. I can trail ride on virtually anything. I mean an actual days work. Moving/treating cattle, that sort of thing. An average trail ride proves absolutely nothing about the horse other than it can be ridden. So can a plug I pick up out of an auction. 
Use a horse checking fences all day long, then chase strays on it, that's work. You never know what you have till the chips are down. Put some pressure on a horse, then you will see its real attitude start to come out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> Trail riding doesn't prove much. I can trail ride on virtually anything. I mean an actual days work. Moving/treating cattle, that sort of thing. An average trail ride proves absolutely nothing about the horse other than it can be ridden. So can a plug I pick up out of an auction.
> Use a horse checking fences all day long, then chase strays on it, that's work. You never know what you have till the chips are down. Put some pressure on a horse, then you will see its real attitude start to come out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trail riding actually proves quite a bit. You know what you have if you pay attention. A good trail horse is worth its weight in gold.
And that is why Arabs prevail in this scenario.. :wink:
It doesn't hurt to have one with a sane head, great training, and LOTS of endurance..


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## reiningfan

Prevail in which scenario? Trail riding or cattle work? 
I will concede that Arabs are good competitive trail riding horses, but for your typical trail ride, give me a good stock horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> Prevail in which scenario? Trail riding or cattle work?
> I will concede that Arabs are good competitive trail riding horses, but for your typical trail ride, give me a good stock horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends on either, but seeing as I have horses in both-- I'd say they're great contenders either way. All horses have their niche.:wink:


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> Prevail in which scenario? Trail riding or cattle work?
> I will concede that Arabs are good competitive trail riding horses, but for your typical trail ride, give me a good stock horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BTW-- how is a competitive trail ride, which Arabs pretty much have the market on, different than a trail ride- as far as attitude, ability, athleticism, etc.?
Outside of 50 or 100 miles or so?? :wink:
I could be happy with such a horse.  Can't say as much for my thighs and **** though..LOL


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## reiningfan

You need to train constantly for that type of ride, the horse and rider must have a high fitness level. Most people don't ride like that on a daily basis. Most trail riders go along at a slow pace, checking out the scenery, talking to the other riders. 
I could compare it this way, take a typical jogger. That's a trail rider, maybe. Then take someone training for long distance running, say, PanAm games level. That's your competitive trail horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

Agreed.. definitely a given. Though "trail" riders can and have-- put in major training time.


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## reiningfan

I agree there. Unfortunately, I find that the largest percentage couldn't get their horses to move off of leg pressure, if they even understood the concept. Most of the 'just' trail horses around here simply are not well broke. I prefer to trail ride a well broke horse and use trail riding to 'leg them up' for their real jobs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fourteen

Am I allowed to ask an honest question in this thread of the two breeders who seem to be enjoying the debate?

DB and Druydess, what niche are you breeding for? In other words, when marketing your stallions, what are their strengths, that a prospective "stud-shopper" if you will, can evaluate to determine suitability for their individual goals?


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> The main reason people show their stallions and mares is to promote them as breeding stock.
> That is the only reason Cassius will ever be shown. I dont care for ribbons and the expense of showing even on the regional level is IMO not worth the return.
> However, Cassius has an impeccable pedigree, and there are plenty of horses that IMO should be bred solely for that reason if they have great conformation and temperament, It is just harder to promote such a stallion.
> I am not breeding 20,000 dollar weanlings for the show ring. I dont want to. If I did I would have spent 200,000$ instead of 20,000
> I breed affordable correct sane arabians that are versatile.
> I also believe the claim that one should breed to better the breed is quite silly.
> The arabian horse has been around for thousands of years and no horse is going to IMPROVE the breed.
> The best any stallion can do is to leave his mark on future generations.
> To found a line of horses that contribute to the future of the breed that is a reasonable claim.
> Showing proves that an owner is willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on training , show fees, transportations and equipment more than the quality of the horse. Shalom


We have a very similar outlook. There is absolutely no point for me to show any of my horses, except for the breeding aspect. That is the only reason I consider it, and begrudgingly, because I do feel it is just a way to rake good money out of owners more so than what a horse is actually capable of. It's just too subjective and too political. In the highest levels, whoever has the most money wins- just like the rest of the world.

I have done, and will do some showing, but I really don't care much for it. In the end, even if one shows, then you have to deal with people who think it doesn't count because it's not National, or there weren't 30 horses in the class, etc. Reality is.. there are so few people showing due to finances and/or disgust over show politics; the days of big classes and good numbers are gone. Stallion classes especially have very few entrants. Dream has a Championship, but with no other entrants, what's the point? At least I dragged my butt and his out and showed up.. LOL


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## dbarabians

Fourteen said:


> Am I allowed to ask an honest question in this thread of the two breeders who seem to be enjoying the debate?
> Of course you can ask the question.
> DB and Druydess, what niche are you breeding for? In other words, when marketing your stallions, what are their strengths, that a prospective "stud-shopper" if you will, can evaluate to determine suitability for their individual goals?


Fourteen I now live near Dallas while the Farm house is being renovated.
We use my arabians to check fences hed cattle and even rope off them just like the QHs.
I do not own any horses that cannot be ridden. Some recent purchases have yet to be trained to saddle but they will.
My stallion Star is not marketed heavily . All of the outside mares bred to him have been by word of mouth or mare owners that used him before I bought him. I also am pretty picky about the mares AND owners I choose to breed Star with . 
Star is impeccably bred and also homozygous for black that along with his temperament will be his strong points.
The foals I raise my self are bred to be versatile correct with good arabian type and affordable.
Next year with the addition of Sam a proven race winner I will market him as such and as a pure polish stallion the son of the great Samtyr. Also as a sporthorse and endurance sire He will be 20 so no showing. I will use his race record and bloodlines to promote him.
He should cross well with ASB, TBs, and warmblood mares.
Sorry I left the discussion but after 13 hours working the Veterans Crisis Hotline fatigue took its toll. Shalom


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## Fourteen

Thank you for responding DB. 

So if I understand you correctly, Star is trained to ride?


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## dbarabians

I will answer any question or anyone that has good intentions and contributes to the discussion.
Star is indeed broke to saddle and is ridden at least 6 days a week 5- 10 miles a day. I have ridden him15 miles and he had plenty of energy left.
He has a trot and gallop that are like riding on a cloud. Shalom


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## Fourteen

dbarabians said:


> I will answer any question or anyone that has good intentions and contributes to the discussion.
> Star is indeed broke to saddle and is ridden at least 6 days a week 5- 10 miles a day. I have ridden him15 miles and he had plenty of energy left.
> He has a trot and gallop that are like riding on a cloud. Shalom


This is what I'm talking about. 

I don't care if Star has a show record or not. ^ This, along with conformation and health/soundness are what I would look for in a reputable breeder. A stud that actually has a job and does it well. I don't care what the job is, just a job!!! :wink:

Of course, I'm taking your word for it that Star has a great conformation. If I were seriously looking, I'd expect to see evidence to that effect, naturally, either in the form of pictures or to see him in person (if that were possible). And I would also expect evidence of his disposition under saddle...depending on whether I was able to visit in person or if I were shopping online for a stallion, this would determine the method used to establish proof.

I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems with producing such, DB? In the same way that you would want to fully evaluate the claims of a mare owner that was interested in breeding to your stud?


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## dbarabians

Fourteen any one who breeds to Star has to bring the mare to me. Live cover only here.
He will be sent to a stallion station along with Sam to be collected and taught to mount the dummy.
Then I will have to decide how to choose which owners and mares I will sell semen to.
I always inspect the mares myself and talk to the owners. I have turned down more than I accept for various reasons.
You do not have to take my word about Stars conformation or level of training.
Make a trip to Texas and I will show you in person.
I do not use this forum as a marketing tool. I might next year but only in the Stallion section . Sam has his own thread there and pictures of some of my horses.
Every post I make will not used as advertisement. Shalom


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## Fourteen

Yes, I appreciate how you don't turn every discussion regarding stallions and/or breeding into brag fests about your breeding stock as if they were the next best thing since sliced bread. It's refreshing. 

Am I understanding you correctly also that you have not yet bred Star? Or that you have not bred him to outside mares yet, just to your own herd? Sorry for my confusion, just wondering. Thank you for continuing the discussion.


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## Druydess

dbarabians said:


> Fourteen any one who breeds to Star has to bring the mare to me. Live cover only here.
> He will be sent to a stallion station along with Sam to be collected and taught to mount the dummy.
> Then I will have to decide how to choose which owners and mares I will sell semen to.
> I always inspect the mares myself and talk to the owners. I have turned down more than I accept for various reasons.
> You do not have to take my word about Stars conformation or level of training.
> Make a trip to Texas and I will show you in person.
> I do not use this forum as a marketing tool. I might next year but only in the Stallion section . Sam has his own thread there and pictures of some of my horses.
> Every post I make will not used as advertisement. Shalom


I'm taking a similar approach. Right now, it's just live cover, but we'll do collection training in the future most likely. I also favor word of mouth and bringing the mares to me at present. It helps to be sure the crosses are most beneficial to the stallion. I am very happy with the status quo as it stands. I have turned down mares for Dream. I also don't use forums as marketing tools. I have not begun active marketing yet, and really don't feel the need to do so. Perhaps next year I'll look more into that.

I will look forward to visiting you in Texas db; can't wait to see all of your beauties!


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## Fourteen

Druydess said:


> I'm taking a similar approach. Right now, it's just live cover, but we'll do collection training in the future most likely. I also favor word of mouth and bringing the mares to me at present. It helps to be sure the crosses are most beneficial to the stallion. I am very happy with the status quo as it stands. I have turned down mares for Dream. I also don't use forums as marketing tools. I have not begun active marketing yet, and really don't feel the need to do so. Perhaps next year I'll look more into that.
> 
> I will look forward to visiting you in Texas db; can't wait to see all of your beauties!


Druydess, are you willing to answer my questions as DB has been so graciously? Specifically, what niche are you breeding for? In other words, what are your studs' strengths, that a prospective "stud-shopper" if you will, can evaluate to determine suitability for their individual goals?


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## Druydess

Fourteen said:


> Druydess, are you willing to answer my questions as DB has been so graciously? Specifically, what niche are you breeding for? In other words, what are your studs' strengths, that a prospective "stud-shopper" if you will, can evaluate to determine suitability for their individual goals?


When you are genuinely interested in my stallion and have a suitable mare I can evaluate, I'd be glad to. This isn't a marketing forum; I do breeding contracts privately.


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## reiningfan

So what you are saying is that, in a thread talking about what people look for in a stallion, in which you yourself said your stallions were the whole package, you won't elaborate for the horse forum members regarding your stallion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

this isn't a trial here. it's a discussion of what to look for in a stallion, in a general sense. Don't "badger" the witness.


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## reiningfan

Sorry. I'm just not used to stallion owners saying their horse was the whole package, then not elaborate on why they feel that way. 
Heck, when I ask about stallions I see a picture of and want to know more, I often get hours long conversations, even if I know they aren't what I'm looking for in the first sentence, when they mention pedigree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> So what you are saying is that, in a thread talking about what people look for in a stallion, in which you yourself said your stallions were the whole package, you won't elaborate for the horse forum members regarding your stallion?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This thread isn't about MY stallion. Dream has his own thread if you'd like to peruse my thoughts on him. 
Those interested in further info may PM me or set up a time to see him in person.


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## reiningfan

Its a thread about stallions in general and what people look for. We may have gotten off track slightly, but it is still under the same umbrella.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

For the OP per her original request. I look for Temper first in any horse, then conformation. If he fails EITHER test, then nothing else matters. Then I look at what he does, if he doesn't do what I want, pass. Then I look at his babies and the mares he's been bred to, to see what I might get. Show records are nice but I'm more interested in things like, does his owner enjoy spending time with him? Do they go for long quiet rides out on the trail? Can he chase a cow? How does he act around a mare, heat or not? 

Here's my cremello QH stallion at 2 years: 


















They aren't great confo pics but as you can see, he's been started and is going well under saddle. "I" like his confo but realize he could be improved in certain areas, so have bred him to a couple of mares and will see where we go from there. I have also bought 2 fillies who are to be his future girlfriends, but they are very young, so we'll have to see how THEY turn out too. 

Skippy's positives (besides his color): 
1. Temper, he is one of the easiest stallions I've ever dealt with. I've taken him to shows to get him out and about and didn't even need Vicks to distract him. 

2. Conformation, I like how he's built and I particularly love his head, neck & ears. 

3. Attitude, AWESOME, tractable and curious

4. Foals, none yet, next year will have 2

5. Mares, I own both mares that I chose to be his first foal producers and know what they produce, so his 1/2 of the equation is the only question. 

6. Do I just enjoy spending time with him, YES and I love riding him. 

7. Chase a cow, NO, he's far too lazy for that, though I think he could if he just would. Since I don't run cattle that's not really what I'm after but I like the athleticism of a good cow horse. 

I'm not through evaluating him as a stallion but so far, he's passed tests to MY satisfaction and that's all that matters. Once I have some foals on the ground, we'll see what others feel.


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## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> Its a thread about stallions in general and what people look for. We may have gotten off track slightly, but it is still under the same umbrella.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I refer you back to my post #4? I believe my thoughts were addressed back then. And the "total package" you referred to was about Golden Ecstasy. I do not own him.


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## MsBHavin

I applaud the stallion owners who have answered questions in this thread.


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## jaydee

reiningfan said:


> Its a thread about stallions in general and what people look for. We may have gotten off track slightly, but it is still under the same umbrella.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This thread was started to ask members what they looked for in a stallion and not as a place for any one person to 'market' their stallions.
It would be more interesting and relevant if it could go back to that.
If you're looking to breed an eventer, a dressage horse, a reiner, a Western Pleasure horse etc your requirements are going to be very different.
In a similar way if you're looking to just produce a good level headed trail horse for the average income market it would be pointless paying a huge sum of money to use a top flight competition sire - so your priorities will be slightly different
In the UK the TB and the Arabian probably are more often used to cross with other breeds like the Irish Draft and native ponies to get refinement or more scope for the show ring and show jumping so people tend to be less interested in what the actual stallion has done in terms of riding but more interested in temperament, conformation and action


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## Fourteen

DreamCatcher Arabians...great post! I love how you've got pictures of what your stud can actually DO, and have limited breeding him to 2 of your own mares, and waiting to see the results, before agreeing to breed him outside your small herd. You are a responsible stud owner, and I applaud you. I'm also very impressed with how open you are about your stud's strengths and weaknesses, and haven't shrouded him in a cloud of mystery about the specifics. Transparency is fantastic...you obviously have nothing to hide!


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## Fourteen

jaydee said:


> In the UK the TB and the Arabian probably are more often used to cross with other breeds like the Irish Draft and native ponies to get refinement or more scope for the show ring and show jumping so people tend to be less interested in what the actual stallion has done in terms of riding but more interested in temperament, conformation and action


I don't understand the logic behind this. Why would people not care what the stallion can actually DO? Can you elaborate more on why this is so?


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## MsBHavin

Fourteen said:


> I don't understand the logic behind this. Why would people not care what the stallion can actually DO? Can you elaborate more on why this is so?


I would be pretty ****ed if I bred a mare to someones stud who bragged about his accomplishments, made small play day shows seem like regionals, and then I got a foal I couldn't do a dang thing with.


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## Druydess

jaydee said:


> This thread was started to ask members what they looked for in a stallion and not as a place for any one person to 'market' their stallions.
> It would be more interesting and relevant if it could go back to that.
> If you're looking to breed an eventer, a dressage horse, a reiner, a Western Pleasure horse etc your requirements are going to be very different.
> In a similar way if you're looking to just produce a good level headed trail horse for the average income market it would be pointless paying a huge sum of money to use a top flight competition sire - so your priorities will be slightly different
> In the UK the TB and the Arabian probably are more often used to cross with other breeds like the Irish Draft and native ponies to get refinement or more scope for the show ring and show jumping so people tend to be less interested in what the actual stallion has done in terms of riding but more interested in temperament, conformation and action


Excellent points Jaydee. I also believe there is no ONE way to judge a horse. A variety of factors need to be looked at. The most important factor is what one considers is suitable for _them_. Most horses will never see the show ring and most buyers are not show-oriented, so an entirely different criteria come into play.


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## Fourteen

Druydess said:


> Excellent points Jaydee. I also believe there is no ONE way to judge a horse. A variety of factors need to be looked at. The most important factor is what one considers is suitable for _them_. Most horses will never see the show ring and most buyers are not show-oriented, so an entirely different criteria come into play.


So again, I will ask, in hopes of getting an answer...

What is YOUR criteria? What has Dream, a stud that you are currently standing and have foals out of already, with four on the way for 2014 and is in the process of producing more...what has this stud DONE...what is he TRAINED for, that meets your criteria for breeding so much already?

Also, you have booked Psynny already to two outside mares, but he's for sure not trained for anything besides photo-ops, as he's still a baby.

So how did you make the decision to breed these two? Based on their looks and pedigree? These are reasonable questions, that any stud owner should be willing and able to answer, IMO.


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## Golden Horse

reiningfan said:


> Sorry. I'm just not used to stallion owners saying their horse was the whole package, then not elaborate on why they feel that way.
> Heck, when I ask about stallions I see a picture of and want to know more, I often get hours long conversations, even if I know they aren't what I'm looking for in the first sentence, when they mention pedigree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:lol::lol: I spoke to someone about a potential stud for my mare next year, he is young yet and is still in training, but boy did I get all the info on what his relatives have done, and the plans for his future, what he will be aimed at etc etc. Love it when owners are so forth coming as to their goals.


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## jaydee

Fourteen said:


> I don't understand the logic behind this. Why would people not care what the stallion can actually DO? Can you elaborate more on why this is so?


 While many stallions do compete really well under saddle in mixed company there are plenty of good stallions that don't and get too easily distracted by having mares around them. You will find that many stallions in the UK are never competed other than 'in hand' yet they still produce top riding stock and many of the HIS (Hunter Improvement Society - now the Sport Horse Breeding Society) stallions were TB's that had only ever raced. They were/are selected for conformation and paces (how they move) and their ability to deal with situations - eg you look for a horse that's bold and outgoing if you want something to compete.
The UK show ponies all trace back to Arabians and TB's selected for looks, temperament and movement. 
A lot of owners will be breeding from a mare that's already proven itself in some way and retired to breeding.
I used several TB racing sires on my mares because their progeny was proof that they were throwing good stock for the competition ring. If a stallion has excellent conformation and the paces to do the job and the right attitude then how well it turns out is really up to the person that trains and rides it.
It doesn't matter how well a stallion has performed under saddle if you use a poor mare you are not going to get a winner and even if you used the best mare in the world there's no guarantee the offspring will perform well if its not trained & ridden correctly or lacks the personality and drive
You'll see much the same in breeding racehorses, I had a son of Nijinsky that was out of very good mare, he was trained on a top yard but could barely be bothered to leave the starting gate in a race.


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## SouthernTrails

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Temporary interruption of service..... please stand bye


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## tinyliny

Fourteen said:


> Druydess, are you willing to answer my questions as DB has been so graciously? Specifically, what niche are you breeding for? In other words, what are your studs' strengths, that a prospective "stud-shopper" if you will, can evaluate to determine suitability for their individual goals?



If this thread were about Druy's stallion, this would be a very reasonable question to expect an answer to. This thread is about what a person wanting to breed a mare should look for in a stallion. The debate part has to do with whether or not A STALLION , in general, must be trained and ridden (or driven, as the case may be) to be able to be considered as a good candidate for breeding, and not simply valued upon his pedigree and conformation.

The discussion needs to be applicable in a general sense to this question.


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