# Need training advice for strong willed yearling filly



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

When she tries to hurt you, as in kick at you, you have to make her think she is going to die! Once she learns she can't harm, or even threaten to harm human flesh unless she wants to die, she will have a change of attitude, which really means, she knows you are the boss hoss, not her. When I say die, come at her like you want to kill her and make her feel it. Don't worry, you can't hurt her much, you are a mere mosquito compared to a (I am guessing) 500 lb + horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly, have to say that while I'm not against appropriate punishment, the 'make em think they're going to die' is something that I'm strongly against & that Ware's & I will have to agree to disagree on! ;-) I also don't believe that just because a horse is so much bigger means you can't hurt them... or for that matter that it's not wrong to sometimes do so.

I would strongly suggest OP that you will find it invaluable to do some study into equine behaviour & psychology, and if at all possible, find yourself a good trainer to help you. As much as you can learn here & from other 'remote' sources, there is nothing to compare to hands on help. As it could be little things such as your timing or bodylanguage that's the problem, of which we can't help with.



> Anyway she was a little scared and unsure at first but she was a good girl until the end, ...was like 10 min 15 min tops, I never go over 15 minutes because I don't want to over do it.


Depending on the situation, 15 SECONDS may well be 'too much' for her. It's not about time spent, as how the horse feels/behaves about it. And even 'low grade' stress will become too much if it's chronic, unrelieved. That's one reason why lots of short sessions are better than long ones. So... if this was a first & scary experience to her, I think it was more likely that rather than 'being a snot', she was just frightened, put up with it for as long as she could, then when it got too much for her, she 'lost it'.

Horses learn from instant association, to do what works & quit doing what doesn't work for them. So... if you ask her for something, she does it, but you keep pressing her, she's eventually going to try something else to get you to quit. You need to ensure whatever you ask for & receive is promptly & effectively reinforced/rewarded. Once she's good at doing the basics, _then _you can gradually improve on them, by asking for longer/better.

So... I'd focus primarily on setting it up that the desirable behaviour/attitudes actually work for her - are easy & rewarding. But it also sounds like she's already been taught(inadvertently) some 'bad manners' and could be an assertive girl too, so you will also need to set some strong consequences for the undesirable behaviour. 

I wouldn't advise punishing fear reactions at all, unless it's a necessary 'emergency measure' for your safety. In those situations I think you need to just recognise you've pushed her too far. But if she has learned that she can call the shots & boss you around I'd make sure her behaviour never works to get her out of something - you need to be consistent & outpersist her - and I'd make it quite uncomfortable for her to resist. Any actual 'rude'/dangerous behaviour such as pushing you around, kicking(or threatening to) would earn a swift *& strong* wallop with a whip or such. I believe actual punishment is seldom necessary, or the best option. But when I feel the need... in the words of Pink Floyd, "One short, sharp shock..." If you mess around trying to punish without hurting, tends to turn into nagging & not effective & is resented. But if you do it strong enough the first time, far more chance the horse won't try it again! ;-)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sorry, Loosie, but while she is "studying" and reading up on equine behavior, this little filly will be getting bigger and nastier. I have to agree with Wares. But you have to be consistent and make her behave herself! Absolutely get the help of a trainer to help you learn how to deal with her if at all possible, and as soon as possible!

This is exactly why I am so against folks breeding. So many end up like this….babies are cute…..but they grow. And if they are not disciplined correctly and appropriately all the way along there are problems. It is a lot of work to raise a responsible equine citizen.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

franknbeans said:


> Sorry, Loosie, but while she is "studying" and reading up on equine behavior, this little filly will be getting bigger and nastier. I have to agree with Wares. But you have to be consistent and make her behave herself! Absolutely get the help of a trainer to help you learn how to deal with her if at all possible, and as soon as possible!
> 
> This is exactly why I am so against folks breeding. So many end up like this….babies are cute…..but they grow. And if they are not disciplined correctly and appropriately all the way along there are problems. It is a lot of work to raise a responsible equine citizen.




I agree, accept I am a breeder and not against (EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL) breeding. My older daughter is working on her first young prospect. HOWEVER, she is never to handle him without me or another trainer around, so if she can not deliver the discipline needed , we will take over. So far she has done great both in the show pen and with her daily handling. She proved she was ready for it, when he was about 5 months old, he decided to take a cheap shot at her and she laid him out in the barn aisle. He got up wondering what just happened, but I can honestly say he hasnt picked up a foot since.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> Sorry, Loosie, but while she is "studying" and reading up on equine behavior, this little filly will be getting bigger and nastier.


Ah, but while she's learning theory, she could also employ a trainer, to teach the horse & learn from practically :wink: And while I agree, to nip this in the bud ASAP, if she can't get a trainer, might be safer to leave the horse to pasture until she can - won't get 'nastier' without practice either, just won't get better. I just think it's best to understand the horse & how they learn, before rushing out & trying to 'deal with it'.

As for the 'make em think you'll kill them', I suspect(from other conversations with you guys:wink our different opinions may be more about mindset/attitude(how, why...) than much practical difference actually, but it's something that I do feel is important.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When we say the horse needs to think we are going to kill it, it's really about making the horse understand that it's overstepped it's bounds and that it's could be in big trouble. We've all seen horses eyes flash in anger and that is what we try to replicate. My suggestion to the OP is to shorten bath time to just a few minutes. As the filly gets used to it and matures she will stand for longer periods of time. You do need to watch for signs from her that she's had enough, no matter what you are teaching. She's a toddler with a short attention span. You may think 15 min. but she may be thinking 10.


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## Saucy12 (Aug 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the advice! I will most likely just get some help from a trainer. And will definitely make our sessions shorter and adjust them accordingly to how Sky handles them. Just for the record, Frankbeans although I completely agree with you on that not everyone should just decide to breed. I am not one of those inexperienced horse people who just decide to breed because "foals are cute". I have been around horses and riding my whole life and recently graduated from Johnson & Wales with my degree in Equine Business management/ riding. So I know what I'm doing, just like I said earlier this is my first breeding experience and raising a foal myself. So of course I know I need help from a trainer and have no problem getting help, because I know I still have a lot to learn about training foals. Thanks again everyone for your advice and input!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saucy12 (Aug 3, 2013)

Also just another note. Sky's behavior is not nasty or malicious. She has never purposefully tried to hurt me. It's just when she is "done" with something or scared of doing something that she gets that way. So maybe it is just due to the fact that the sessions I was doing with her are too long
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Saucy12 said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice! I will most likely just get some help from a trainer.


This is EXACTLY what I was going to recommend for you. 

The one thing that is the most important when you are training is horse is *timing*. If you don't have the correct timing, you will encourage incorrect behavior and make the horse think he/she does not have to listen to you.

We cannot teach you timing over the internet. But a trainer (in person) can! Try to find a trainer who is well-experienced with ground work and has good references. This filly needs to be taught some ground manners, and you need to learn how to discipline her and when enough is enough. 

As far as how long to work with a young horse ... there is no time limit. Throw away your watch because it means nothing to the horse. 15 seconds might be the perfect amount of time to get the lesson across you want to teach the horse. The next day you might need 15 minutes. 

A good trainer is going to help you recognize that fine line between "the horse needs discipline" and "the horse is going to blow up because you've over-done it". Again, we really can't teach you that over the internet. It's about watching the horse and paying attention to it's body language and its responses. 



Saucy12 said:


> Just to give you an idea, I gave her her first "bath" a few weeks ago, it was mostly just getting her used to the hose and getting water sprayed on her. Anyway she was a little scared and unsure at first but she was a good girl until the end, when she decided she had enough of that.


How did you go about that?

Did you use an approach and retreat method, or did you simply start spraying her with water and expect (or hope) for her to stand still? 

This is where a trainer is going to be valuable for you; learning what is the best way to introduce a scary stimulus to your filly and make it a successful one. 



Saucy12 said:


> But when she had enough of her "bath" she started spinning trying to kick me, rearing up and pushing into me.


As I mentioned above, there is a fine line for when you should MAKE a horse tolerate what you are doing to them, and when you have blown their mind because they've had too much. 

Maybe in that case you SHOULD have made her stand nice. Or maybe her mind was already blown 5 minutes before that and you did not recognize it.



Saucy12 said:


> She is strong so it took all I had to keep her off me and get her calmed down.


Ground work is going to be vital for you because it is going to teach this filly how to give to pressure. 

You will never win a pulling match with a horse (even a yearling). They need to learn to respect you and give to you.


Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> When we say the horse needs to think we are going to kill it, it's really about making the horse understand that it's overstepped it's bounds and that it's could be in big trouble.


Yeah, I don't disagree with it 'metaphorically speaking', just that many people take that kind of thing more literally & also don't consider the reason for the behaviour. I think if you don't understand why/when/why not, you can easily end up with a more confused, frightened & more reactive horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Double like

To Beau, I don't mean my own!


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Ground control will help lower the intensity of the "done" behavior, if you find yourself at that point. If my young horse needs to move her feet, I hurry her up and get her to move her feet until she decides standing was probably the better option. Usually if she knows she is allowed to move, and can, she won't. But if she knows she absolutely cannot move, and needs to, then you have a blow up where they feel they need to take you out to get free. If my horse is uncomfortable and needs to move her feet and does it in a safe and respectable way then comes right back to me, I have no problem with that. That amount of time will gradually get shorter and shorter as she gains confidence. And that confidence has saved my butt a couple times during spooky situations where her natural reaction has changed to simply skirting around me and yielding, instead of running me over or jumping on me. And by then she's cool. Gradually even that whittles down to where she spooks less often and smaller. If you give them direction and an outlet to go, it feels like it works better psychologically than forcefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

For anyone interested in gentle training methods that are incredibly effective, take a look at this:

Augustus the Mustang | Adventures of Augustus the Mustang

This HF member has only had her wild horse for two months and she has made extraordinary progress in a very short time. _Everything_ she does with her horse is calm and unhurried, and the relationship and cooperation between these two make them a joy to watch. They play all sorts of games and trick train, and Augustus is now lying down on request and letting her sit on him in that position. She also covers training to hose, spook-proofing around power tools, umbrellas etc, all sorts of useful things. There are many clips on this blog and it's worth going back to the first entry and coming forward chronologically to see it all in sequence. I've had some long chats with this trainer and her training ethos is very similar to loosie's or mine. A key difference in practical terms is that I've never extensively trick trained before, but her blog inspires me to try it!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> She has never purposefully tried to hurt me. It's just when she is "done" with something or scared of doing something that she gets that way.


 firstly, trying to kick you is purposefully attempting to hurt you. It shows lack of respect.

second, yes your sessions are too long. I work with my youngsters just long enough to know they are easy to catch, lead, tie, load in a trailer, trim their feet and deworm. Short sessions for babies. All spring/summer/fall I barely touch them except for the odd brush, fly spray, deworm or trim. I work with them just long enough to get the behaviour I want, then I kick them out.

.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The trick here at this baby age (and at 1 year old she is a baby) is to never ask more than she will be successful at. End on a positive note BEFORE she becomes a PIA. 

Reduce discipline and expand on success. Fifteen minutes is way long. Better to break it into 3 segments 5 minutes (or less) each.


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## Saucy12 (Aug 3, 2013)

Ok guess I worded that wrong... That is the first time she has gone after me trying to kick me. So yes obviously she was trying to hurt me then.. I'm just saying in general she is NOT a nasty malicious filly. She just has her moments like every horse. And she is still a baby. And honestly what happened after the bath was my fault. I should have stopped earlier and I think she was just fried and nervous. And then she blew up. My fault not hers.. Not saying that behavior is acceptable by any means but it did not just come out of nowhere because she is "nasty". So I will make sure I don't push our future sessions too long
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saucy12 (Aug 3, 2013)

And thanks again everyone for the advice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

BlueSpark said:


> firstly, trying to kick you is purposefully attempting to hurt you. It shows lack of respect.


Kicking in these pressure-cooker situations is not necessarily a purposeful attempt to hurt a human. Horses also kick as a primary defense reaction when they are feeling threatened or unsafe. Kicking also, in a horse's experience, often makes annoying things go away - flies, other animals crowding it, etc., and even irritating _people_ ;-), so they will try it in their repertoire. Stay out of harm's way, don't encourage the kicking - don't pause when it happens, and positively reinforce the behaviours you do want from the horse.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SueC said:


> Kicking in these pressure-cooker situations is not necessarily a purposeful attempt to hurt a human. Horses also kick as a primary defense reaction when they are feeling threatened or unsafe.


And therefore, they intent to HURT the thing they are defending themselves against. 

If I get surrounded by a gang in a darj alley, I am going to try to defend myself (if I can't run away). And yes, I will intend to HURT one of them out of defense for myself.

Fight or flight. 

In this case, the horse chose *fight* because it couldn't get away (she said the horse tried pulling away from her).

Don't think for one second that a horse won't double barrel kick you, without a _purposeful intent_ to land one on your chest. It is 100% trying to hurt you. Maybe not in a malicious intent; maybe in fear; but it is still trying to inflict harm. 




SueC said:


> Kicking also, in a horse's experience, often makes annoying things go away - flies, other animals crowding it, etc., and even irritating _people_


A horse kicking at a fly and a horse kicking a human who has annoyed it with a garden hose are two different things.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

beau159 said:


> If I get surrounded by a gang in a darj alley, I am going to try to defend myself (if I can't run away). And yes, I will intend to HURT one of them out of defense for myself.


Now that is just rude, showing a heap of disrespect!! They should make you think you're going to die for that!

(there's no 'tongue in cheek' emoticon, so you have to have raspberries!)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Watch a bossy mare, you don't need no book for that. If another horse tries to kick that bossy mare, watch how she reacts, and yes, she can do serious harm to the offending horse, but usually she doesn't, but they sure feel her wrath and don't mess with her again. That's me, the boss mare. This is why my horses, even though one of them used to be a breeding stallion, never in their wildest imagination would dream of harming human flesh, they know it's totally off limits, period. My 3 year old granddaughter can feed treats with her finger tips, her fingers accidentally go in their mouth, they push them out with their tongues, they know to be careful with anything human. Every once in awhile, the younger of the two, the son of the former stallion, will do something silly to see if those boundaries are still there, like throwing a far off kick in my general direction when he knows the trailer is being hooked up for lessons and he is running around like an idiot, then he almost looks to see if he is gonna get it, and oh boy, yes he does, in spades. Once he accidentally stepped on my foot, he felt it and jumped back and was waiting for a wallop, I sort of swatted him because he was expecting it, lol. Be fair and firm and consistent, no wishy washy uncommited punishments, do it and mean it and move on.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

beau159 said:


> And therefore, they intent to HURT the thing they are defending themselves against.


No, we can't just make that assumption. We can observe _behaviour_ but not necessarily jump to conclusions about _intent_. This is on of the things that becomes crystal clear when you study animal behaviour as part of a zoology degree. Animals just do what works and don't necessarily think like humans do. In pressure-release terms, if they cycle through a repertoire of behaviours to deal with what they see as a problem, and something works to stop the annoying stimulus, they will see it as a "good thing to do" - and the behaviour becomes reinforced, and more likely to be tried in other sorts of situations.

Now, you can get all high-strung about it and be rough with your horse whenever it kicks to discourage it, but that doesn't actually work any better than not allowing the horse to profit from its behaviour, continuing with requests for positive behaviour (and the learning horse may try a whole host of other things before alighting upon what you want), and then reinforcing it for that behaviour.

Kicking can happen in aggressive situations, e.g. two mares fighting, or in defensive situations, e.g. person doing scary stuff with garden hose, umbrella etc. Negative reinforcement around the latter situation just results in a more wary, frightened, distrustful horse which is harder to teach.

For those who don't enjoy reading books on zoology or horsemanship, I recommend this blog, which shows just how far you can go very quickly when you do _not_ use dominance-based training methods.

Augustus the Mustang | Adventures of Augustus the Mustang

It also has interesting sections on how to deal with hosing and how to desensitise horses to stuff like power tools and scary umbrellas. After less than two months this horse even lies down on request and lets the owner sit on it like that. But hey, I might already have mentioned the link! ;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

waresbear said:


> Watch a bossy mare, you don't need no book for that. If another horse tries to kick that bossy mare, watch how she reacts, and yes, she can do serious harm to the offending horse...


Yes, absolutely agree! But the 'offending' horse wouldn't be in fear for his life(unless she boots him out of the herd ~ theory behind 'join up'). The difference is that he fears *the punishment* but not her. I think that's vitally important & something that many people completely miss.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Kind of playing around with words, but we do agree.


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## fffarmergirl (Nov 21, 2012)

I've only been working with horses about 2 years but things just worked out in an odd way for me and about 75% of my time spent has been working with foals. I've spent a lot of time working with a bad trainer and a little bit of time working with a good trainer.

What I've seen is that the "make them think they're going to die" approach can work but you can't make them think they're going to die for 10 minutes. They can think they're going to die for one second and that's much more effective.

Everything really has to be kept positive during your training and the lesson should always start on a good note and end on a good note, and pleasant stuff should be mixed in with the unpleasant stuff, and the lessons need to be kept very short with the foals and gradually increase in time.

My two year old filly is still learning to like to be bathed, and I'm sure she would already love to be bathed if a certain very unpleasant trainer didn't always see me working with her and come over and "help" by scaring the crap out of her and end it on a bad note.

Yesterday I was finally having a good bathing session with my 2-year-old filly because I was alone with her, doing it my own way. I had buckets of warm water, a sponge, some shampoo, and a hard plastic mit-type grooming tool that had short little plastic nubbies on one side and a brush on the other side. I would squeeze the warm water on a small area (she still doesn't really like that part) and then take some shampoo on the plastic nubbies and GENTLY give her scratches with it, working up a lather and making her feel so good her eyes practically rolled back in her head. Then I'd squeeze some more water on her to rinse it off, which she really didn't like - but before she got too upset about it I'd be back at the shampooing scratching bit again. Then I'd gently pour the water on her directly from the bucket for a very short time before scrubbing her again. So it was pleasant alternating with unpleasant and intermingling. The goal was to get her to the point where she associated being bathed with pleasant feelings and actually learn to like the water. It was fun and gentle and loving - until you know who came out and made her nervous and she started prancing around. Then that person decided she needed to "teach her a lesson" and help me control my horse and ruined the whole experience. 

She upset and scared a tied horse and that's an extremely bad idea. I don't know why somebody with 30 years horse experience hasn't figured that out yet. One of these days she's going to get herself hurt and she has it coming. By the end of it all she had my horse rearing in fear. (This is the barn I'm boarding at and I'm finally moving my horse - should have done it much sooner).

You just don't scare a tied horse. In what situation can that be safe?

A lead mare doesn't have the foals tied up when she administers the correction. The foal acts up, she takes out a chunk of it's hide, and it's over until next time. She doesn't hold it still and "teach it a lesson" - you know? Yes, the foal thinks it's going to die - for the one second it takes until it's able to escape.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Here's a Tom Roberts “taster” for non-Aussies (or younger Aussies) - because I bring him up a fair bit and because his books are a bit hard to track down these days. This is from the beginning of “_Horse Control – The Young Horse_” (Griffin Press, Netley, South Australia, 1974) - a horse training manual I highly recommend. If we still had him with us, this is what Tom might post: 


*TRAINING PROCEDURES:*

“_That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”_
“_Quiet persistence”_
“_End-of-Lesson”, what it means_
“_Old Hat”_
_Use of voice in training_


Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

_Question_: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!

_The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing._

And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, _you_ would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. _These are not trick questions._ If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can _avoid_ any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

_Reward and punishment _is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new. Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

_Encourage and discourage_ is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it _can_ include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:


“_*That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*_


These terms mean exactly – _exactly_ – what they say.

“_To Profit”_ is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“_To Profit Not”_ means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.

_It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that._



_*Quiet Persistence*_

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.

_We persist. We quietly persist with our demands._

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse _without punishing him_.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

_*End of Lesson*_

_End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements._

What End of Lesson means:
When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day _at the moment_ the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

_At the very instant_ of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.


_*The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.*_


We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

_End-of-Lesson_ is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.


“_*Old Hat”*_

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

_This is a characteristic of the horse._ Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn _*to repeat lessons rather than to prolong*_ them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.


_*Use of the Voice in Teaching *_*(excerpt)*

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's _right_, _clever_ boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you _do_ want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.

_The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly._

Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what _did_ please you.

If your use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last. Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”


*A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD*

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

(Roberts goes on to describe how people unwittingly form vices in horses by letting up - “Ending-the-Lesson” - at the wrong moment, by creating situations where that can easily occur, by punishing horses, by ill-fitting and painful gear, by expecting instant perfection rather than immediately encouraging _small progress in the right direction_, thereby confusing the horse, etc.- and what to do about it when this has already happened. And that's only the start of the book – some basics, before meticulously covering safety of horse and handler, age at education, groundwork, lunging, early ridden training, teaching basic dressage, light hand-light mouth, impulsion, traffic, shying, spookiness, and teaching to trailer. More advanced training – higher-level dressage, jumping, etc is covered in the sequel.)


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Tom Roberts wrote his books in his 70s, when he was too plagued by knee problems to stand in the ring educating riders or to work with horses himself any longer. Originally British, he had spent his lifetime training horses and riders on several continents, starting with the British army, where he became their youngest ever certified riding instructor aged 16 and worked with many “problem horses”. During the Depression he joined the South Australian Mounted Police and became their chief instructor. He also conducted schools of equitation Australia-wide, judged at the Royal Shows, competed in polo, jumping, dressage, campdrafting etc, and hunted. In 1950 he formed the Dressage Club of South Australia and wrote for and edited horse magazines.

Consequently, his books are a treasure trove of a resource for any amateur or professional horse trainer. The 202 pages of systematic training advice go through the vast majority of things we may wish to teach young horses, and trouble-shooting problems - and following this advice results in calm, cooperative, teachable horses who enjoy their work. No short post on a forum is a substitute for this sort of substantial reading. In over 30 years of training horses, we have yet to come across a “problem” horse who is not vastly improved by the methods espoused in this book (and relieved to be rid of its troubles). Roberts is by no means the only person who has written wonderful books to further understanding of animal training – but he is certainly one of the best who ever wrote in Australia.

Franz Mairinger, erstwhile trainer of the Australian Olympic Equestrian Team and Senior Rider of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, and highly successful jumping rider in A-grade competition, wrote this to Roberts after reading his manuscript: _“You combine thorough knowledge and vast experience with your searching mind to produce a highly interesting and readable book: __but more than that, you give really sound advice based on the lines of classical teaching. Your advice, with the given examples of how it works, combined with your stress on patience and understanding, makes it a valuable help for any beginner. I am sure, too, that even the experts will find something they have not thought of before. To all those who do not think that they know it all, I warmly recommend this book.”_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

waresbear said:


> Kind of playing around with words, but we do agree.


Absolutely, semantics, but considering 'playing with words' in this manner also influences your attitude & effects and intent so much, which is all IMO vitally important when dealing with horses.:wink: One reason why I think that if the OP is not sure of herself, or understands the reasoning behind a behaviour, she's best doing nothing than rushing out & putting the 'fear of death' into a (quite possibly) already untrusting/frightened horse.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> Absolutely, semantics, but considering 'playing with words' in this manner also influences your attitude & effects and intent so much, which is all IMO vitally important when dealing with horses.:wink: One reason why I think that if the OP is not sure of herself, or understands the reasoning behind a behaviour, she's best doing nothing than rushing out & putting the 'fear of death' into a (quite possibly) already untrusting/frightened horse.


Exactly.  Language is the software on which our thoughts operate, and the reason Tom Roberts got so particular about the wording in which he thought when training horses, and went on about it at length in the excerpt from the start of his training book, is precisely because of the way language colours attitude and feelings. Horses are generally highly sensitive to the attitude and feelings of the people they are working with. (As are dogs, actually.)

Personally I've never felt a need for putting a fear of death into any horse with which I have worked, and that included some very aggressive ones. I consider that concept highly counterproductive to training. Even when you are disciplining a horse that's crossing the line, it's just about correction and boundaries and doesn't need to be very dramatic. Staying calm is so important - and so much can be done to prevent a lot of problems from cropping up in the first place.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> I've only been working with horses about 2 years but things just worked out in an odd way for me and about 75% of my time spent has been working with foals. I've spent a lot of time working with a bad trainer and a little bit of time working with a good trainer.
> 
> ...Everything really has to be kept positive during your training and the lesson should always start on a good note and end on a good note, and pleasant stuff should be mixed in with the unpleasant stuff, and the lessons need to be kept very short with the foals and gradually increase in time.
> 
> ...


(What, you have Voldemort over there? ;-) )

FG, I have to say I was really impressed by your post! You've figured out things that work for you and your horse and make things calm and fun, and you know the importance of positive experiences, and you're sticking to your guns despite a certain well-meaning "expert".

When I trained my first horse, a yearling Arabian filly, 31 years ago, much of my early effort was directed at undoing the damage done by a certain "expert" way of "halter breaking" that had been done before purchase. It consisted of tying the young filly unbreakably to a post and swatting her with an oilskin until she foamed with fear, so she would "know she couldn't get away when tied and that humans were boss." What a _*stupid*_ thing to do to an animal. She was incredibly claustrophobic around tie posts and confined spaces for a long time afterwards, and super wary of anyone she didn't already know and trust (in case they were _one of those_). It took way more time to get her to be calm around confined spaces and tying than it ever takes when you do sensible tie-up lessons with young horses that keep them calm in the first place. I had to convince this little yearling, after having that for a first experience of working with humans, that I was _not_ her enemy. I made sure that when she worked with me, life would be pleasant for her and she would be treated with respect. This is not only compatible with learning, to my mind it's crucial for maximising learning. I think too many people go on about how horses should respect them without ever appearing to consider that respect is a two-way street.

I wish you all the very best with your filly.


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