# Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG*



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Let me start off by saying that I am very experience in horse training. I have a 4 year degree in Western Horsemanship from Univ. Of Findlay.


Now. Let me give you the short version here...

I have rarely in my training ever had to lay a horse down. A handful of times. I do it correctly I do it humanely and I do it safely. 

That being said. I got in a 3 year old Appy stallion for training a few days ago. He has become so aggressive the owners cannot handle him anymore and are going to sell him but wanted to get him trained first. 

Don't say it.. I told them. he should be gelded first off. Not my horse not my decision. 


THat being said.. they have spent the last three years letting this A$$hole become who he is... ramming through people.. rearing.. striking. He would not even walk in the stall when he came here two days ago. we had to blindfold him to get him in. 

So I went to work today. Lunged the crap out of him than when he was good an tired started laying down work. I have NEVER had a horse fight with the leg hobble so much from the start. Everytime I pulled it a bit to get him used to it he would stomp his foot nonstop so hard I thought he was going to hurt himself. 


Flash forward.... I spent THREE hours working this horse down til he would tolerate holding the leg up without fighting.. He is by this point pouring sweat... legs trembling from being tired.. and no matter how much I waited him out.. kept asking him to lay.. he would not give in. I hate to say it but this horse beat even me. I figured by this point he was so dog tired we might be able to get him to walk in the stall. he had given up trying to fight out of the hobble but refused to lay down. 

STILL wouldn't go in the stall lunging forward and striking.. reared a few times. but finally I think he realized I was going to win at this I guess and gave in. We no have no issue with him going in and out of stalls. 

Now after this long drawn out story... anyone else have similar issues with a very aggressive horse? Ive never had one fight so long and still be no where near laying down and giving in.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Wow. Sounds like a handful, and I wish you the best of luck. I am by NO means a trainer, but it sounds like you had a TEESNY bit of progress - today he went into his stall, not blindfolded. I would say to try again, every day, maybe even twice a day, until he gets it, if laying him down is what you want to do. You made a bit of progress with the leg hobble too - so maybe, like the stall when he realized he wasn't winning, one of these coming days he'll get it through his head that he is going to have to lay down.

Again. Not a trainer here, but that's my take on it. I'm sure others will chip in with advice too.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sounds like he had his way for a long time, so his attitude adjustment will be a long drawn out battle of wills. Waiting to hear more.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I followed the thread of "Delete" hopefully yours will turn out the same! I wish you luck and be careful!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes I have had horses that did not lay down easily with one foot up. Are you just trying to rock the horse back with a foot up and his head over to the opposite side? Does this horse tie OK?

There are other techniques. I will PM you with details since I really to not want to explain that much on an open forum. I am afraid some novice will get hurt or hurt a horse trying to do something they have no business trying.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Yes I have had horses that did not lay down easily with one foot up. Are you just trying to rock the horse back with a foot up and his head over to the opposite side? Does this horse tie OK?
> 
> There are other techniques. I will PM you with details since I really to not want to explain that much on an open forum. I am afraid some novice will get hurt or hurt a horse trying to do something they have no business trying.


 
I would very much appreciate that. 


Yes That is what I was doing. Rocking back and forth. he would basically give a little hop everytime. Every other time I have had to use this technique when horses got tired/gave up they would slowly lean back than lay down. This guy was NOT gonna do it even though he stopped fighting the one leg hobble. I tried slowly rocking with the head and with the one leg hobble no luck. I would get a small hop everytime.. and this guy was dead tired by this point. Never had a horse go that long (nearly 4 hours) AND still not even lay down once.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Forgot to add. THe horse does tie ok. 

the first time I cross tied him he did give a little rear in ties (mine are kind of scary they are higher hanging chains) but he settled right down after he realized he was tied and I told him whoa. He straight ties with no issues.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Here is a picture of the brat


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Subbing


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I agree with Shoebox- while you didn't accomplish what you were planning on, just getting him to go in and out of the stall properly is huge. Especially huge given what you've told us of his personality and responses. So while it wasn't your plan, sometimes you have to be flexible, and you still got a 'win' in. Keep at it. Keep pushing him and being consistent and I bet he will finally decide to give it. Once you get that, he will have a chance to learn how much easier life is if he lets you be in charge and you'll be on the way to the right path. 

I hope you will keep updating us on him- I am always interested in these tough cases. Do you think horses like this ever become relaxed enough to be handled by 'average' competent horse people, or will he always need a very skilled handler? Or can you even venture a guess at this point?


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Sharpie said:


> I agree with Shoebox- while you didn't accomplish what you were planning on, just getting him to go in and out of the stall properly is huge. Especially huge given what you've told us of his personality and responses. So while it wasn't your plan, sometimes you have to be flexible, and you still got a 'win' in. Keep at it. Keep pushing him and being consistent and I bet he will finally decide to give it. Once you get that, he will have a chance to learn how much easier life is if he lets you be in charge and you'll be on the way to the right path.
> 
> I hope you will keep updating us on him- I am always interested in these tough cases. Do you think horses like this ever become relaxed enough to be handled by 'average' competent horse people, or will he always need a very skilled handler? Or can you even venture a guess at this point?


 
My honest opinion is that people who keep stallions should know how to manage stallions. I have three intact boys on my farm . I can walk them all around mares in season WITHOUT chains. they are WELL BEHAVED! HOWEVER... they don't naturally act like gentleman. They constantly need reminded of their brains and you cannot ever let your guard down around a stallion because they think with one thing only! 

This particular horse has had three long years of being spoiled and allowed to get his way. Im guessing the owners think its cute when they give him treats and reward train him.. and than one day he was big.. and thinking with his you know what. They tried to get him to do one thing.. and he wanted to do another. Reared.. lunged... struck... and learned he got away with it. Fast forward to today. He is a 1000 lb animal and KNOWS IT. 

I think these are the WORST kind of horses and the most dangerous kind. Owners spend years nursing these problems and expect trainers to work miracles with them. 

Do I think this horse can be made to respect humans. YES. 

Do I think that without reform from his owners though will he go right back to his old ways? YES! 

I can go leaps and bounds with a horse.. but if the owner does not change the issues that brought that horse to this point... they will go directly back to what they know. This horse since he was allowed to get to this point will probably always need to be reminded who is boss. 

He is with me for 60 days for "saddle breaking" but I swear I can never get a horse in that JUST needs saddle breaking.. they are always terrors! LOL


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Did the owners phone you the next day & ask if you are riding him yet?


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Did the owners phone you the next day & ask if you are riding him yet?


 
LMFAO! you know they always do! Honestly unless a horse has amazing ground manners I don't even GET ON THEM in the first 30 days. And I have YET to get a horse in with great ground manners.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I hope you charge them for combat pay.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Awe but he's so darn cute, he deserves cookies and treats and snuggles and how dare you do anything to hurt his poor feelings. D:

Subbing because even though I would get that horse off my property in record speed, I hope you update us with progress.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Just bend the horse and keep him bent laterally, he will go down (it can take some minutes.)


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

He's had three years to fall to this point (no pun intended), he's going to need a lot of time to climb back up again. I think, even if it was a little, you've still made progress in this one day... He's probably been the macho center of attention for such a long time that it's hard for him to just give in.
It's sad to know that he's going to go back to these people after you whip some sense into him. Are they definitely going to sell him after training, or is it more of a 'we want to sell him, but let's send him to training first and see what happens' type of thing?


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I'm sorry but the only way you are getting anywhere is 3 or more hours to tire him out?

All you are doing is building up his endurance.

Not getting points across, just tiring him out.

I don't see this ending well.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Nothing to add as I know you getting far better advice from people far more qualified, subbing.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I got in a 3 year old Appy stallion for training a few days ago.


Have his eyes been checked? 

BlindAppaloosas.org


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

equitate said:


> Just bend the horse and keep him bent laterally, he will go down (it can take some minutes.)


 easier said than done. I don't use saddles when I lay down just a hobble rope around midsection and a halter.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

mls said:


> Have his eyes been checked?
> 
> BlindAppaloosas.org


 
He is not blind. Young. No signs of moon blindness. just a grade a A$$


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Palomine said:


> I'm sorry but the only way you are getting anywhere is 3 or more hours to tire him out?
> 
> All you are doing is building up his endurance.
> 
> ...


 
The only thing I want to gain from laying this horse down is letting him know he doesn't always get his way and get an attitude change.

I do believe despite not getting him down I did get an attitude change from him. He did give into the hobble. just didn't get him down.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

For one thing I think your attitude may be playing in to this, which he picks up on. You may be coming across as a predator and there's no way he's going to go down and let you eat him.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I think it sounds like you're doing a great job so far. Rome wasn't built in a day. :wink: I would not have the experience or confidence laying a horse down, so good on you for knowing how to. I bet once he figures out you're not tolerating any of his attitude, you'd be able to lay him down. Good luck and keep us updated on his progress!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Subbing!


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

You made progress and have learned a lot about him. Does he have awesome bloodlines to justify keeping him a stallion? They don't know how to handle a stallion & the the next buyer may not either. I would have insisted on his being gelded before training. With his attitude & being intact he is well on his way to being dangerous for many potential owners.


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## Tarpan (May 6, 2012)

I know it's not your decision to geld him but I HOPE his owners will be honest about his history of aggression when selling him and screen potential buyers well.

Good luck in rehabbing this brat, don't forget that persistence beats resistance. Sounds like you made some good progress, and I bet he'll be hitting the dirt within a few more sessions. 

His markings are pretty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Good luck to ya Ghostwind. Horses like this are why many trainers get burnt out and/or stop riding for the general public. Sounds like the owners have built so much resistance in this horse, it's going to take alot of persistence and a careful choice of techniques to get this accomplished without this knucklehead hurting himself. If it was me I'd probably send him home. He hurts himself and then you get a bad rap... Be careful whatever you do


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> He is not blind. Young. No signs of moon blindness. just a grade a A$$


He doesn't have to be blind to have vision issues. The not wanting to walk into stall throws up a big red flag for me.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

mls said:


> He doesn't have to be blind to have vision issues. The not wanting to walk into stall throws up a big red flag for me.


 
Its not just any stall its ONE stall. He previously would walk into any stall in my barn high or low ceiling EXCEPT the one he is supposed to be in (which is identical to three other stalls he had no issue walking into. The stall is well lit.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> For one thing I think your attitude may be playing in to this, which he picks up on. You may be coming across as a predator and there's no way he's going to go down and let you eat him.


 
LOL I doubt this. I am the most calm person in a situation you will ever see. Even with his adverse behavior I stay call and tell again. Im not aggressive but I am assertive. 

Either way. This horse a serious case of bad boy and he will leave without it.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Baby steps. I remind myself often, they didnt read my lesson plan. They dont know how it was supposed to go down (literally, in this case). Good luck with him. Give him another day or 2 and i bet hes on the ground


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

You could send the horse back home and change careers. I think that would be my plan. 

Medical school
Law school
Walmart
McDonalds
..............................................


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

How long does he stay in the other stalls vs his. What about the horses on either side - are they emitting negative energy that he's sensing. The best way to get a horse to do something is to create a situation whereby he wants to do it. This is where a person has to get creative. Here's an example. Dreaded fly spray. As long as the horse stood still while I sprayed water well to my side, he got a treat. Working in increments the spraying gradually got closer. When it barely touched his leg, he departed (he was at liberty) three or four strides, stopped, turned to face me and stood for oh, 20 seconds. I think he was trying to figure out how to get the treat. He approached me. I started again only with larger increments and within half a minute I'd sprayed him all over and gave him his treat. He could have left at any time but it was his decision to stay. Since that day he's always been easy to spray.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Show them this video and explain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU

I'd like to see how this ends up...Keep us up to date!


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Show them this video and explain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU
> 
> I'd like to see how this ends up...Keep us up to date!


Holy SH!T! I rarely flinch at vidoes but my jaw hit the floor during this one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghostwind, give him time. He's a fighter. He'd rather die than lose. He's got that "wild" demeaner that would save his life on the prarie, but could very well be the death of him in captivity. I had the great fortune of working with a stallion like this once and though he was dangerous and frustrating, he taught me more things as a trainer than all my other little training horses did.


You made progress with him today. Not all horses go down on their first try. Persistance pays off in the end. Make a personal journal and log any and every accomplishment. Sometimes on the harder horses we get discouraged because they aren't like everyone else's and they aren't progressing as fast. But they ARE progressing, just in small steps. These horses are most rewarding when the lightbulb finally clicks on in their heads and they turn around.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow, that is one scarey video. I would march to my house, get the gun and shoot that horse right then and there. Nice to hear that the lady in the video said the same thing.

But, to the OP, I think you have years of undoing to do and laying down was just too much to ask in this particular situation. As has been pointed out, you did make some progress. Baby steps working towards the lying down. Unless you saw some behavior to indicate otherwise, I'll bet it'll happen within the next few sessions. 


He probably has no idea what is expected of him; he's like a pubescent teen that's never heard of school enrolled in kindergarten class.

I think you won pretty good with the stall issue. Regardless of what/who was around it, you got him in there without blindfolding again. Someone suggested keeping a journal. I think that's a great idea. A bad day might really frustrate you if you can't go back and look at what you started with and the little gains on the good days.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

OMG That is a beautiful horse! Too bad he has such a bad attitude!


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

That video is from Buck Branaman's DVD. It's a really good training vid FYI. Talks about how they used his horse for the movie "The horse Whisperer". FYI. 

Anyway...this dude is one I would send home or geld. I'd give the owner those options. If they're trying to sell him, they're not going to get him sold without training and I would refuse to train until he's gelded. That's just me.


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Your going to have your ups and downs.
I wonder if this horse has ever been taught manners by other horses?? Has he been on his own?
remember fight or flight. Stay safe. best of luck!
you should make some progression vids for yourself.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Spotted said:


> Your going to have your ups and downs.
> I wonder if this horse has ever been taught manners by other horses?? Has he been on his own?
> remember fight or flight. Stay safe. best of luck!
> you should make some progression vids for yourself.


Good point Spotted.......sometimes the herd is the best teacher of manners.....unfortunately though because he is a stud he probably hasn't been turned out with a herd.:-(


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh dear. Didn't see this thread earlier & haven't read replies yet. Just came from one of the other 'aggressive horse' threads & read your post...

I have to say, IMO you have gone about it in a manner I disagree with strongly on a number of levels, starting with the attitude that he's an A$$hole - don't blame him for the way he's been taught & handled.

The horse may be a 'problem child' on many issues & desperately need some discipline in his life, but I think it's best - and more effective - to do it in an empathetic way, rather than just try to match his 'fight'. Not just because when you do that & lose as you did, you've further reinforced his attitude & therefore dangerous behaviour.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Get him gelded. Is it worth your life to work with him? Is it worth someone else's life when/if his owners sell him to some poor unsuspecting person? 

Tell the owner to come get him or geld him! For the time and effort you put into training him you could train 2 other horses. If you get injured you will loose any income you have while you recover. It doesn't make sense professionally to take on a horse like that, unless you have something you are trying to prove. One broken arm is worth how much these days? Even with insurance?

If you work this horse for 3 hours straight, exactly what do you want him to learn? Horses are like children, they do not have the best attention span. By the time you work him that hard he probably has no idea what you want- even just standing there (refusing to lie down) may be his way of giving up. It is not like he understands that the reason you are pulling on him is for him to lay down. If someone picked up your foot and pulled on your hair, the last thing you are going to think of doing is laying down! He probably has no idea what you want him to do. 

Working him that hard is going to get him really fit. 

I would not want to put a horse like this in a stall. If you go to catch him there is not much room if he decides to attack you or pin you on the wall. I would keep a horse like that in a round pen or small paddock. Just keep working on those ground manners every single day- get him ground driving really well off of voice commands. 

I would be teaching this horse to ground drive right into his stall. That way he can't be biting/striking or rearing at you if you are behind him (just stay well out of the way of getting kicked.) If he refuses to get into the stall work him in circles. Pretty soon that stall is going to be a mighty nice place to stand still in. 

If he was so tired his legs were shaking, he certainly did not win either. Anytime a horse runs from you, he is allowing you to be "boss". If he thinks you are a predator than laying down means he is going to die. If you can control him without laying him down, than you have still won. Even just taking away his ability to run (with his leg tied up) takes away his control. It is not always necessary to lay a horse down to control them. 

Are you familiar with Learned helplessness?

In the learned helplessness experiment an animal is repeatedly hurt by an adverse stimulus which it cannot escape. (You ran him and he could not escape). Eventually the animal will stop trying to avoid the pain and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation. Finally, when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness prevents any action. (His refusal to lay down). The only coping mechanism the animal uses is to be stoical and put up with the discomfort, not expending energy getting worked up about the adverse stimulus.

A horse often learns to lay down to avoid the unpleasant stimulus of being pulled on. If he is mentally and physically overwhelmed he is not going to be thinking "maybe I should lie down", he will be thinking "I don't know what this person wants so I'm not going to do anything at all". You have to remember that he does not understand that all he has to do is lay down to get you to stop! He probably very desperately wants you to leave him alone and stop bothering him. He just doesn't know what you want. 

If you are going to lay down a horse it needs to be done quickly without becoming a drawn out fight. If the horse is down he is immediately released from the negative stimulus and rubbed on and rewarded by stopping the training session.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'll just remind you the same way I remind my husband. 

In some situations, being persistent and just calmly continuing to come back until you wear the horse down is the best thing, especially for a horse that isn't a fighter. 

In some situations you get a tiny little bit of give today and quit on a good note and come back either later in the day or tomorrow and try for the little bit you got today and then just a tiny bit more. 

You got a tiny bit of give today and you quit on a good note, that's been the most effective thing for me with a fighter. I've found that they fight and fight and fight and sometimes they start fighting a little less each day and then 3 or 4 days down the road the come back and fight with a vengeance. It seems like when they do that, all of a sudden you get a huge break through and make big strides in one day. Sometimes that's the end of the fight and sometimes you have to go through it periodically. 

While laying him down and getting him to acknowledge you're on top may be your ultimate goal for now, I wouldn't even try to put him down yet. I'd work with a little trust gaining first. It might mean you have to hobble and rock for 3 hrs a day for several days, but he'll figure out you aren't really trying to hurt him and then you'll get a bit of break through. I'd make my goals much smaller and break your sessions down into smaller steps per session. Keep it fairly simple and then give him a break, even if it's just tied to a patience pole, let him eat some grass and have a drink and then come back for another session when he's fully let down from "round 1". You might do several small sessions in a day for a few days and see if that works better than one really long one. 

When you say he's totally sweated, you're telling me he's totally afraid and emotional, I've found that unless I can work past that first, I won't make any training progress. 

We have one right now, he's ours not an outside horse, and he's a super emotional and very chicken horse. Of course, he's the one who has a hock injury and needs doctoring every day. Naturally. Well, it's been 3 weeks now and he's no longer trying to kill us, maiming will do. We needed to trim a little of his hoof because it's gotten too long, so hubby got it trimmed and then went for another foot and did it. The horse didn't have to be tranq'd for it, so I consider that a success. He tried to go for the front feet and I stopped him and told him to accept what we'd just been given. This horse would just as soon have taken his head off 3 weeks ago, rather than let him touch his back feet. He now lets us doctor his wound and then allowed 2 feet to be trimmed. That's pretty good progress for this horse. 

However, if we changed just ONE thing, he would have a complete melt down. For instance, we can hose his injury outside in the wash rack without too much fuss now, but try to scrub the wound or remove proud flesh there and it's all over but the kicking and shouting. So, we hose, then we go back to his stall. I hold his head, hubby scrubs and does the doctoring and then I give him a hand full of grain and tell him he's good. In the stall he goes to his "happy corner" and leans against the wall while hubby does his thing, doesn't even try to dance away anymore. If hubby was to hold his head and I tried to doctor, it would be back to square one. In this fella's case, he was a dummy foal and I'm not sure how much progress he's ever going to make. He may end up a pasture ornament for life. 

We no longer take in outside horses and if I have one of my own that's truly aggressive and I don't feel good working with him, it's off to the vet for a one way ride. I would not accept this stallion on my property, period. Not even as a gelding, I just wouldn't do it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'll just remind you the same way I remind my husband.


But it's not spelled that way!:lol::wink:


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

Really interesting read, I hope everything works out for you. Will be subbing.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Show them this video and explain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU
> 
> I'd like to see how this ends up...Keep us up to date!


Holy jaysus!! :shock:


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## wausuaw (Apr 15, 2011)

Subbing mostly. 

My only idea would be to not put your blinders on and fixate on one action (laying him down). 

I have nothing against it (done right), but as some others have noted, he may have been "giving" a bit even without laying down. I doubt his owners have hardly ever handled him to the extent that you have, so he is probably overwhelmed with all this new sensory input (hobbles, leg ties, getting completely worn out, etc) 

Not to say he's not acting like an *** (*** is legal on a horse forum, right ? Ya, know, donkey XD) in general, but I doubt these people ever tried to teach anything about manners, or anything else so I would personally slow down just a tad and work on manners and accepting all these "things" (to him, they are just things- like hobbles and ropes and such) to where he's not flipping out with them, then he'd be more willing to look for the answer (laying down). 

Again, I don't mean be his best friend. I would never give a horse like this treats, or frankly, let their teeth that close to any piece of me. Respect first, love later. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you did this all on day 1? That's quite a lot. To me, it sounds like he was "giving" but just had absolutely no idea what to do. 

I also agree about the stall thing- although, I think it's good you got him in and out no issue, regardless of what his issue with it was, the point is that you are the boss and you decide where his feet go. But, I would probably keep him in a round pen so he can't corner you and you have an out if absolutely necessary. 

I also think there is some merit in giving them an ultimatum about gelding him or sending him back. It's one thing to take on an aggressive horse for training, it's another completely to take on an aggressive horse that has one very "fixable" problem that can be taken care of immediately. 

But, I am interested in how this goes and what you do to help this situation, as well as what others have to offer. 

Good luck!


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

While gelding him is the best idea and should definitely be done, he should also get to where he is "safe" around people before getting gelded. The vet and his staff won't want to deal with such an aggressive and unpredictable horse. The horse could get majorly stressed out during the process and become even more reclusive towards humans, and he needs to be exercised and handled daily to reduce swelling and ensure he's healing properly. If I were in your situation, which thank goodness I'm not, I would get him to a "safe" point before approaching the owners about gelding him. That's just me though, so take that with a grain of salt haha.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I think there is alot of good advice.

I have no problem with laying down a horse, in fact my mare had to be at one point. I agree its only for the worst cases. I think there is not much point in restating what has already been said, so I will just say, stay safe and be careful, and have some simpathy. the horse didnt't turn himself into this, his owners did.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Holy crap on that video! I had Hunter charge at me like that when he was 2 (although he didn't actually get me) scared the crap outta me.

We have a stallion at our barn, nice enough but nothing special. I asked the owner why she doesn't geld him and she said it was so she can say she trained a stallion. OMG she doesn't even train it she has someone else doing it.

Good luck with this guy


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I find that horses reaction in that video of BB very similar to this horses reaction.....however this poor fellow was the target of rock throwing etc....but note the similarity in response. The horse was pushed into 'fight or die' mode:


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## onuilmar (Feb 8, 2013)

Subbing.

I'm not a horse trainer, but I do know A LOT about learned behaviors and behavioral psychology.

When a behavior is being extinguished, the behavior gets worse before it gets better. This is well-documented in the literature. 

So small steps need to be acknowledged. You are trying to extinguish (correct) well-practiced, well-established behaviors. Absolutely critical to moving forward is acknowledging your small successes.I don't believe that these behaviors can be fixed in one session, but only through many "trials."

So being aware of whether you are progressing or regressing is absolutely critical to ultimate success. 

(And I am not sure the label of learned helplessness is appropriate here. The lab animals in those experiments were not ever rewarded for appropriate responses, because there was no appropriate response for those situations.) 

Good luck.


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## goingnowhere1 (Jan 22, 2012)

That is the cutest horse I have ever seen.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

NorthernMama said:


> Wow, that is one scarey video. I would march to my house, get the gun and shoot that horse right then


Have you seen the film? Might _need_ to shoot the horse, maybe shouldn't actually _shoot_ the owner too, but... Some people!:evil:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

No, Loosie, I haven't seen the movie. I don't get out much  Not sure I'd want to watch it anyway... maybe when I can get it on DVD really cheap at Wal-Mart!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Watch the movie! Horse being shot was the kindest thing to do. Owner....maybe the same....who in his, or better her, sane mind, keeps more than a dozen stallions around. She has a serious problem:-(


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Kayella said:


> While gelding him is the best idea and should definitely be done, he should also get to where he is "safe" around people before getting gelded. The vet and his staff won't want to deal with such an aggressive and unpredictable horse. The horse could get majorly stressed out during the process and become even more reclusive towards humans, and he needs to be exercised and handled daily to reduce swelling and ensure he's healing properly. If I were in your situation, which thank goodness I'm not, I would get him to a "safe" point before approaching the owners about gelding him. That's just me though, so take that with a grain of salt haha.


 
There are lots of ways around that. He can be loaded in a trailer and tranqued in it, cattle chute, it's just takes some creativity. The vet does need to be aware of what he is getting himself into and he may need to be trailered to the vet. But it can be done.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

NorthernMama said:


> No, Loosie, I haven't seen the movie. I don't get out much  Not sure I'd want to watch it anyway... maybe when I can get it on DVD really cheap at Wal-Mart!


Do you have Netflix? If you do, it's on there- it's on instant queue.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

The movie Buck is absolutely amazing. I've watched it probably 5 times in one month. :lol: That lady really needed a wake up call, and I think Buck really gave that to her. "Why don't you learn to enjoy your life?"


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Soenjer - no NetFlixs either. We live in the boonies and only just got reasonable internet again last month! My son is after me to sign up for it though. Maybe... sometime... seems like enough time gets wasted in front of computer screens around here already! 

To the OP -- any update on further sessions with this guy?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

According to the comments from the Buck clip, that idiot woman kept him and he's now got a whole bunch of lovely foals running about with I'm sure the same temperament!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> According to the comments from the Buck clip, that idiot woman kept him and he's now got a whole bunch of lovely foals running about with I'm sure the same temperament!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm wondering who was more damaged in the head... the horse or that woman.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> According to the comments from the Buck clip, that idiot woman kept him and he's now got a whole bunch of lovely foals running about with I'm sure the same temperament!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great! But don't assume it's anything to do with genetic temperament - he was hand raised as an orphan by the woman, spoilt rotten. You like to think people live & learn... but sometimes I think the best you can hope for is that some people soon become contenders for the Darwin Awards!:twisted:


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> According to the comments from the Buck clip, that idiot woman kept him and he's now got a whole bunch of lovely foals running about with I'm sure the same temperament!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO









Then they need to make Buck 2 and address this.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

He was also a "dummy" foal. The dam was found dead and he had yet to be completely delivered. He was not breathing when they found him, and had no idea how long he had been there. He was an oxygen deprived stallion that was raised INSIDE A HOUSE. Sadly, his temperament could have been somewhat prevented. He could have been a completely different horse if he had been gelded and raised properly. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> I find that horses reaction in that video of BB very similar to this horses reaction.....however this poor fellow was the target of rock throwing etc....but note the similarity in response. The horse was pushed into 'fight or die' mode:
> 
> ANIMAL ATTACK - Horse Attacks Guy in Retaliation (MOST DARING) - YouTube


Go pony go! Eat that MOFO.:evil:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Very true but if the foals are being raised by the same woman, that pretty much speaks for itself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KyMoMoF3CuTiEs (Feb 5, 2013)

Subbing! 
I think that you have done a great job so far! Even though I am not a trainer I can't wait to watch your progress!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

No update????


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, looking for an update please.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> According to the comments from the Buck clip, that idiot woman kept him and he's now got a whole bunch of lovely foals running about with I'm sure the same temperament!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought she had agreed to put him down?! 
Jee-sus....


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

subbing to see updates!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I've been following this thread too though I just hadn't posted and I'm wondering about an update as well.

I have to agree with one of the other posters, though. I think I'd give the owners an ultimatum; either geld the horse or take him home. I wouldn't want to risk getting myself hurt/killed trying to fix their screwup with a stud. Gelding might not make him better but it certainly couldn't hurt.

As for the video from the Buck movie (and yes, NM, you can find it at Wal-Mart), I think that could have been prevented. IMHO, the handler was suffering from tunnel vision and missed many of the warnings that the stud gave.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I've been following this thread too though I just hadn't posted and I'm wondering about an update as well.
> 
> I have to agree with one of the other posters, though. I think I'd give the owners an ultimatum; either geld the horse or take him home. I wouldn't want to risk getting myself hurt/killed trying to fix their screwup with a stud. Gelding might not make him better but it certainly couldn't hurt.
> 
> As for the video from the Buck movie (and yes, NM, you can find it at Wal-Mart), I think that could have been prevented. IMHO, the handler was suffering from tunnel vision and missed many of the warnings that the stud gave.


This is exactly what I thought when I saw the video. I had no idea why he kept trying to sack the horse out when the horse was acting the way he was.


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

Copperhead said:


> This is exactly what I thought when I saw the video. I had no idea why he kept trying to sack the horse out when the horse was acting the way he was.


Agreed with the above comments. If a horse is that nervous about being sacked out maybe he should have started with something a little less startling like just petting him to calm him down and establish a little thought in the horses head that he isn't going to eat him.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

He's not nervous, he's an ***. You really need to watch the whole video to get the scoop. It's a great video. This was this horses last chance.


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

K I might go get the video or rent it in this case to get the whole story. Can't be making judgements without seeing it all


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

He may have just been an ***, but the handler was using the absolute wrong exercise for the horse'se behavior.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

With that horse, he was no safer petting it than he was trying to sack it out. That horse lunged at people multiple times as they were just walking by outside the pen. ANY sort of contact with that horse would have been dangerous because he was just so unpredictable.


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

and she kept him alive AND he bred other mares?! wth...


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Stupid never ceases to amaze me. On the DVD she said she was euthing him. If she didn't...she's an idiot.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

That horse was not unpredictable. That guy was standing in the wrong spot and didn't see it coming.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

As for Buck, I don't see why they didn't have that horse gelded first. There is no reason why they couldn't herd him into stocks or a trailer to get him sedated safely and gelded. Isn't that how they brand and sometimes geld wild mustangs? Testosterone is the "aggression" hormone. 

Ever see how aggressive a mare can get when they have high testosterone levels due to medical reasons? 

I don't really agree with how he handled that stallion either.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is a pretty brat. I am not trainer and would not want someone to lay my horse down, to big of a chance of something broken. If the stands hobbled and will go in and out of stalls easily, and his manners are improving ?? If so, I would just keep on with ground training and manners. He sounds really spoiled


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Copperhead said:


> This is exactly what I thought when I saw the video. I had no idea why he kept trying to sack the horse out when the horse was acting the way he was.


Yes and for my first & only introduction to BB, that sort of eg. didn't fill me with awe & respect for him either, the way he handled it. But I do realise this wasn't meant to be an instructional film & perhaps he had just given up on trying to teach these people anything aside from allowing the horse to give them one last lesson...


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Ya'll really need to watch the whole thing.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Copperhead said:


> He may have just been an ***, but the handler was using the absolute wrong exercise for the horse'se behavior.


 the handler, is Dan Gunter him and his wife Abbie Cornish, were actually the hosts of that clinic. He is also on record for saying that he handled that situation wrong, and that in hindsight it was easy to see where he stepped in front of the shoulder, but he kinda got tunnel visioned into the exercise. Which whetherr we want to admit it or not we all do.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Also to the OP, sorry your thread got sidetracked to yet another review of the movie Buck. I agree, generally, with the geld or go home statements made. This horse would be dangerous enough without _huevos, _the addition of them makes it worse. He doesnt need them, he was obviously never shown or campaigned in any way shape or form. Anyone who knows me will tell you i am no fan of stallions anyways, if your not going to be a breeding facility. As my grandad always said a good stallion makes a great gelding. Just ask my wife we have the argument at least weekly about out whether our stud colt remains in tact, and you can bet yer boots he *is *well mannered. 
If you choose to keep working him as he is, I would suggest shorter sessions 30 minutes or so early and then 30 more later in the day. giving simple clear commands of what you expect, rewarding any positive, honest effort, and quitting on a good note. Even I'm told, if that goes back to a previously learned behavior (see honey I _do _listen).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

6gun Kid said:


> (see honey I _do _listen).


Good boy!:lol:


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## AriatChick772 (Feb 13, 2013)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Show them this video and plain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.
> 
> https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FM...size=1][i]Posted via Mobile Device[/i][/size]


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

loosie said:


> Good boy!:lol:



Yup  (I'm his wife)


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Sorry haven't been here in a few days been very busy around here. Foaling season is fast approaching and I also professionally show dogs and we were off at shows this last weekend. 


Ive read each and every response here and I KNOW that there is a lot of input/personal views etc where we will never agree on. We can all only do what we feel is best in each personal situation and with our expertise level.


Here are some responses to comments that stuck out to me...

1. to the person who vehemently disagreed with my methods

you are not me. you are not in my situation and you are not putting yourself in this particular situation. I have experience with stallions, this method, and it works for me. I think when people think of laying a horse down they think of incredible cruelty to an animal and when done properly it is just the opposite. It is a very safe way to get an aggressive and dangerous animal to learn that even though he is 1000lbs plus... he cannot stop you. agree or not. this is my charge in my training program.

2. To the person who suggested treating for unwanted behaviors...

This is quite honestly how this horse got in this situation. Stallions are DIFFERENT animals than mares and geldings. They must live in a nothing in life is free environment and you can never let your guard down around them. Many don't mean to be dangerous they are thinking with their "other" brains.. but you getting inbetween them and what they want will get you hurt if you let your guard down. 

3. someone mentioned that by me losing that I got nowhere with him

I disagree. He didn't know what I wanted from him so there was no reward for any of the behavior. I DID make a baby step with him. While I might not of got the desired action from this session I did get the desired mind change. He gave up a small fight going into the stall after our session but not nearly the full blown out trying to strike, kick and rear at me we were previously having with him. He is now successfully going in and out of his stall calmly. 

4. to the person who said that by him being in a full all out sweat etc that he was scared and trying to get away.

I know what a horse looks like when its scared.. its whites show it acts nervous etc. This horse has no fear. that is why he was/is in this situation. He was quite frankly tired of putting up a fight. 


I have personally seen firsthand animals that have "blood in their eyes" they are people killers. If you have ever met one you know what I mean....and they are SCARY AS HELL! 
This particular horse is NOT one of those. He is quite frankly a bratty 3 year old stallion who has grown up getting his way for the last three years and is used to it by now. This has made him dangerous.. and this has taught him that being aggressive has gotten him wherever he wants to go when he wants to do it. 




now for the update! 
I gave him the day after our session off. we both needed a rest! But we went back to work the next day. he calmly is letting me put on his halter. he walks in and out of his stall. He is cross tying calmly and tying calmly. 

He is acting like a NORMAL HORSE! Still a bit study when he sees other horses but that's to be expected from a young stallion in spring. Ive been correcting the behavior and he is responding to me. 

He yields to me. Gives me space and has been working well on the lounge line. I put a bareback pad with girth on him today for the first time and he took it like I would expect any other horse. He is a little girthy but I think that will get better with time. 

He still has quite a bit of ground work to go before we will be "hopping on his back" but overall that one session has really changed the mindset of this boy. I do not plan on going back to it again unless he reverts back to his previous bad boy attitude. I'll be sharing a video and uploading a photo of him today working for you all to enjoy


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

a photo of him after working.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)




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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

pardon all the horses squealing LOL! whenever im in the barn they always want fed pigs!


this is such huge progress for him... prior to our lay down exercise anytime he heard a mare whinny he would slam over to the gate and try to bust through .His mind is in the work now and he is really coming along

he was a little bit spunky. we had JUST started lounging


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

Awesome!! I've been a little stunned by that too, you work a horse one day and he's just fighting you the whole time and you think "how can I ever train this guy," it takes him forever to learn things and you leave at the end of the session thinking you're going to have an even harder time the next time...

Then the next day you go back out and he does everything PERFECTLY. :rofl: It makes you wonder if he's just pulling your leg or something. But really, sometimes it helps to give horses a day or two off after they've had a few sessions to let the training sink in. Maybe it would help him even better if you trained him every other day for like 30 minutes since he seems to enjoy the time off, he's probably just one of those horses that needs some time to let it sink in.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Laffeetaffee said:


> Awesome!! I've been a little stunned by that too, you work a horse one day and he's just fighting you the whole time and you think "how can I ever train this guy," it takes him forever to learn things and you leave at the end of the session thinking you're going to have an even harder time the next time...
> 
> Then the next day you go back out and he does everything PERFECTLY. :rofl: It makes you wonder if he's just pulling your leg or something. But really, sometimes it helps to give horses a day or two off after they've had a few sessions to let the training sink in. Maybe it would help him even better if you trained him every other day for like 30 minutes since he seems to enjoy the time off, he's probably just one of those horses that needs some time to let it sink in.


 
I normally don't do long sessions with horses. It makes them hate it. The reason the "laying down" session was so long is that is literally how long it took him before he stopped fighting me. in those kind of situations we go over our allotted time. 

I also try to end every session on a good note. If a horse continuously doesn't get something.. I don't stop with that bad behavior I end with something he does well and than pat him. it happens. every session is not a success. I do limit my sessions to 30 minutes when starting horses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> 1. to the person who vehemently disagreed with my methods
> 
> you are not me. you are not in my situation and you are not putting yourself in this particular situation. I have experience with stallions, this method, and it works for me. I think when people think of laying a horse down they think of incredible cruelty to an animal and when done properly it is just the opposite.


As there were a few who didn't appear to agree with how it sounded, me being one of them, not sure who this is directed to, but on my part at least... I appreciate that we all have different experiences & attitudes, not to mention I wasn't there to actually know the situation & it could have been a lot different to my perception from your post:wink: It's just something that IMO I felt strongly about & sounded like I would have done quite differently myself, on a number of levels. Personally, I understand and am not against the practice of laying a horse like this down, it was the way you described the situation. 



> 2. To the person who suggested treating for unwanted behaviors...
> 
> This is quite honestly how this horse got in this situation. Stallions are DIFFERENT animals than mares and geldings. They must live in a nothing in life is free environment


Didn't read that bit but I suspect that it may have been mistaken. Absolutely & positively would be careful NEVER to treat(I gather meaning reward) unwanted behaviour, not just with a stallion. I think 'nothing in life is free' may not be absolutely necessary for some personalities, but is a valuable principle to keep in mind training any animal. They need to learn clearly & consistently what behaviour works for them & what doesn't... preferably they learn the behaviours that work are those the handler wants!



> He still has quite a bit of ground work to go before we will be "hopping on his back" but overall that one session has really changed the mindset of this boy. I do not plan on going back to it again unless he reverts back to his previous bad boy attitude. I'll be sharing a video and uploading a photo of him today working for you all to enjoy


Excellent news!


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## onuilmar (Feb 8, 2013)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> 2. To the person who suggested treating for unwanted behaviors...
> 
> This is quite honestly how this horse got in this situation. Stallions are DIFFERENT animals than mares and geldings. They must live in a nothing in life is free environment and you can never let your guard down around them. Many don't mean to be dangerous they are thinking with their "other" brains.. but you getting inbetween them and what they want will get you hurt if you let your guard down.


I think this may have been me, and I believe we miscommunicated. 

I meant that in trying to extinguish (get rid of unwanted behaviors), the bad behavior gets worse or stronger before it goes away.

So not fully extinguishing (getting rid of the behavior through punishment/non-reward) DOES actually strengthen bad behavior.

Absolutely necessary to continue to extinguish the behavior until it is fully gone.

And sometimes it takes more than one trial/session to get rid of the behavior.

(I was cheering you on!)


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## May (Mar 16, 2013)

Wow, he does not sound like a pleasure... I agree so much with your thinking of laying him down - AND your thinking of not doing such a thing unless it is necessary. 

I don't know if this would work; but I was wondering: the point is to make him accept that we take control of him and the situation, right? How about breaking it down? Let him first stand tied for an hour or two, a few days in a row? Long enough for him to get impatient and angry, and long enough for him to realize that impatience won't help him. Then regular hobbles on the front feet as training for the next few days. Maybe this could help; make him start thinking about letting go of control in a slighter way first; making the lay-down number three. Though you could maybe also tie him and hobble him at the same time as a number three, and then lay-down as four. Just a suggestion, and also curious to hear if you think this might be a way to do it? I've never experienced a horse like that. Good luck!!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

May said:


> Wow, he does not sound like a pleasure... I agree so much with your thinking of laying him down - AND your thinking of not doing such a thing unless it is necessary.
> 
> I don't know if this would work; but I was wondering: the point is to make him accept that we take control of him and the situation, right? How about breaking it down? Let him first stand tied for an hour or two, a few days in a row? Long enough for him to get impatient and angry, and long enough for him to realize that impatience won't help him. Then regular hobbles on the front feet as training for the next few days. Maybe this could help; make him start thinking about letting go of control in a slighter way first; making the lay-down number three. Though you could maybe also tie him and hobble him at the same time as a number three, and then lay-down as four. Just a suggestion, and also curious to hear if you think this might be a way to do it? I've never experienced a horse like that. Good luck!!


My personal experience with hobbles is that they are dangerous.. That's why I use this method of laying a horse down. I do it with a long one leg hobble line.. that way if the horse fights me.. and trys to hop etc.. I can let go if need be. I think if I would of hobbled this boy he would've broke his leg trying to get free honestly! LOL

He has done a complete 180 from that one session. He is acting like I would expect a NORMAL horse to act at this point. It took me nearly 3 hours to get him to except the restraint (the one leg hobble) and than I spent another hour trying to get him to give in a lay down which he did not. I did end up giving in and not pushing for the down... but I got the desired change of tude I was looking for.. so.. a win either way


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

onuilmar said:


> I think this may have been me, and I believe we miscommunicated.
> 
> I meant that in trying to extinguish (get rid of unwanted behaviors), the bad behavior gets worse or stronger before it goes away.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't mean it badly and cant remember if it was you. I read so many replies I couldn't keep track of who said what. 

Ive never had good luck with treat based training (just personal experience) 

I certainly use positive reinforcement when a horse does a job well done through a rub or pat and a soothing voice.. but as far as treats I have always seen them do more bad than good. Some horses they might work for but whenever I have seen them implemented they get horses who wont work unless you reward them.. or even worse.. NIPPERS! LOL. all my horses can have treats but they are put in their food pail and don't come out of my hand.


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## onuilmar (Feb 8, 2013)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I didn't mean it badly and cant remember if it was you. I read so many replies I couldn't keep track of who said what.
> 
> Ive never had good luck with treat based training (just personal experience)
> 
> I certainly use positive reinforcement when a horse does a job well done through a rub or pat and a soothing voice.. but as far as treats I have always seen them do more bad than good. Some horses they might work for but whenever I have seen them implemented they get horses who wont work unless you reward them.. or even worse.. NIPPERS! LOL. all my horses can have treats but they are put in their food pail and don't come out of my hand.


You're doing fine. That's the problem: everyone thinks that all reward/punishment psych means treats and crops. And in experimental setups, food is a very obvious mechanism for getting rats and pigeons to do what we want. But in experimental situations, the researchers wants very clear evidence in support of a theory.

You are using reward/punishment whether you realize it or not. Everytime you get a behavior from the horse you want, you DO reward it. In fact, by definition a reward is anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior and a punishment is anything that reduces its likelihood.

That's why treats and clickers are not necessary. Horse will work for praise and security. And in fact, to get fancy, I believe that social praise may be a primary reinforcer while clicker training relies on a secondary reinforcer. Others may argue with me, but I am just looking at how social horses are. 

Establishing dominance involves a punishment cycle. But the word *punishment* has so many other meanings than the technical one above. That's why the technical literature uses the value neutral language of "negative" and "positive" reinforcement. 

A lot of people THINK they understand learning psychology from psych 101, but usually their understanding is quite thin. 

You are definitely on the right track.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> My personal experience with hobbles is that they are dangerous.. That's why I use this method of laying a horse down. I do it with a long one leg hobble line.. that way if the horse fights me.. and trys to hop etc.. I can let go if need be. I think if I would of hobbled this boy he would've broke his leg trying to get free honestly! LOL


I do agree hobbles can be dangerous if:

1. The person using them is inexperienced

2. They're put on a flighty or resistant horse before the horse is conditioned to accept its feet being taken with a rope

Whether or not you plan to eventually hobble or lay a horse down, i agree with getting horses accustomed to having their legs taken with a rope. Helps the farrier, helps the owner, and keeps the horse from going into panic mode if they ever get hung in wire or get their foot caught in anything

Never seen a hobble-trained horse mutilate its leg fighting to get loose of a fence and have to be put down


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> I do agree hobbles can be dangerous if:
> 
> 1. The person using them is inexperienced
> 
> ...


 
If you had seen this horse during starting getting him used to the rope one leg hobble you would think differently. Ive NEVER seen a horse slam its leg so hard trying to get that sucker off.. and all it was was just on him! LOL. 


I do have an update though. We did another lesson tonight. I am just SO happy this horse has turned around. He is like a totally different horse from that one session. He is really listening to me now and connecting. Im just so happy I was able to get through to this boy.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

It's good to hear that things are going well. If that one session taught him that much, he must be one smart horse and you must have touched just the right neurons!  I trust you will continue to be on guard at all times for any sign of disrespect though. And, it sure would be nice to hear that the owners are willing to geld him and/or sell him to someone more responsible/experienced. 

He's a looker!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Finally just decided to take the path of least resistance. Smart boy. Good trainer.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Perhaps if he's been a pet he'd never encountered any 'resistance' before... yeah, he'd have been a fun character for a farrier!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Glad it's going well. 

I second the advice to remain on your guard. Some horses go into a little honeymoon period and after that wears off, will try something. Not as bad, but still can foul you up.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

loosie said:


> ^Perhaps if he's been a pet he'd never encountered any 'resistance' before... yeah, he'd have been a fun character for a farrier!


supposedly he stands for the farrier. I dont believe it


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

boots said:


> Glad it's going well.
> 
> I second the advice to remain on your guard. Some horses go into a little honeymoon period and after that wears off, will try something. Not as bad, but still can foul you up.


I never let my guard down around horses! Even one I have owned and loved for 17 years.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I never let my guard down around horses! Even one I have owned and loved for 17 years.


Oh you can trust & rely on any horse 100%! To behave like a horse & some horses are just more 'horsey' than others!:lol:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

loosie said:


> Oh you can trust & rely on any horse 100%! To behave like a horse & some horses are just more 'horsey' than others!:lol:


Loosie - I think you meant you "can't" trust....


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> LMFAO! you know they always do! Honestly unless a horse has amazing ground manners I don't even GET ON THEM in the first 30 days. And I have YET to get a horse in with great ground manners.


You'll find its because those with great ground manners are generaly the product of people who know what they are doing and generaly break them themselves.

However My lad Reeco has brilliant ground manners, do anything you like with him on the ground but riding has been an ordeal! He has so much remembered pain and trauma that it has been absolute hell. 
We are getting there now but he is still sharp, spooky and inclined to bolt as a first reaction and think about it later.




Saddlebag said:


> How long does he stay in the other stalls vs his. What about the horses on either side - are they emitting negative energy that he's sensing. The best way to get a horse to do something is to create a situation whereby he wants to do it. This is where a person has to get creative. Here's an example. Dreaded fly spray. As long as the horse stood still while I sprayed water well to my side, he got a treat. Working in increments the spraying gradually got closer. When it barely touched his leg, he departed (he was at liberty) three or four strides, stopped, turned to face me and stood for oh, 20 seconds. I think he was trying to figure out how to get the treat. He approached me. I started again only with larger increments and within half a minute I'd sprayed him all over and gave him his treat. He could have left at any time but it was his decision to stay. Since that day he's always been easy to spray.


Sorry but What a long winded twiddly way of doing something and what a load of nonsense about "negative energy" from other horses.

My lad accepted fly spray because I had a head collar on him and I sprayed it on him. No treats involved. If he shies away from it I continue to spray it untill he stands still. When he stands still I stop and the pressure comes off.
Took all of 20 seconds and now I can use aerosol sprays on his head (a cut above his eye to be precise) and he doesnt move a muscle for it even without a headcollar or restraint.

My horses accept clippers because I say it is OK not because they want treats.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> My lad accepted fly spray because I had a head collar on him and I sprayed it on him. No treats involved. If he shies away from it I continue to spray it untill he stands still.


We all know how you can force a horse to put up with stuff Faye, but Saddle was giving another approach - getting the horse desensitised - and willing - about something without forcing them. Perhaps you don't get that it's a quite different attitude, but the horse certainly does. I would imagine you would likely have far more success with this 'long winded twiddle' in 'reprogramming' your horse's feelings about being ridden. But whatever, if you only believe in using negative reinforcement & restraint, that's fine too.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faye said:


> My lad accepted fly spray because I had a head collar on him and I sprayed it on him. No treats involved. If he shies away from it I continue to spray it untill he stands still.


We all know how you can force a horse to put up with stuff Faye, but Saddle was giving another option - getting the horse desensitised - and willing - about something without forcing them. Perhaps you don't get that it's a quite different attitude, but the horse certainly does. I would imagine you would likely have far more success with this 'long winded twiddle' in 'reprogramming' your horse's feelings about being ridden. But whatever, if you only believe in using negative reinforcement & restraint, that's your prerogative.


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

as far as treats go, I'm with Faye. My mare gets treats when I want to love up on her. When she does something I am proud of the pressure is released and she gets a little scratch on the neck to show she did what I asked. Applying and relieving pressure is a huge way to teach a horse to do something, Faye is just stating another different way to do things-without treats.


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

Laying a horse down changes its attitude drastically from a negative to a positive. I have a 2yo colt that wanted to react aggressively towards me any time I wanted him to move forward or do ANYTHING he didn't want to do. I laid him down with a lariat rope and a rope halter and it did take a little while to do so, he was also tired (and a bit shaky.) Anyways, I got him down, then sat on his shoulder and rubbed him about his head and shoulders, on his stomach, just basically everywhere, although I stayed near his neck until he stopped trying to get up and relaxed. It probably took a good 2 1/2 hours to put the rope on him and lay him down (I use a saddle, which I already taught him to wear), then another hour of sitting on him while he was down. 

I let him up then tied him for the rest of the time it took for me to work the other horses (tacked up still.) He was the first one out and the last in. Next day, he was a completely different horse, which was awesome! He also never back slid in his training and I rode him within a week or so of that day. 

I've found that that more dominant horses who have had more leniant owners are tougher to start the process of laying down, although with that being said, it has taken me probably 45days (spread out over the course of like, a year and a half) to get to the point where I can walk up to my buckskin mare, pick up her foot, and press on her chest with nothing on her and have her respond and lay down with that. Success!


Another thing I've found that really helps some immature horses grow up quickly is some long tieing sessions with a couple water breaks. When I was starting colts for people, I had 3-5 horses plus my own mare, when I'd actually ride her, at different points of training. I'd tack them all up and tie them either hard to something, or on the walker, then would start riding/working them from most advanced to the brats/untrained guys. Really helped a lot, like they had to go through their impatience and learned it did them no good, so they were ready to think and participate in our lessons =) I always ride/work/desensitize/sit on them for at least an hour each, unless there was a miracle breakthrough, then I'd immediately reward and put them up, lol.

With that being said, it is so true that you only get the brats other people don't wait to mess with, lol. I did it almost a year and quit because I was tired of it, which sucks, cause I was making triple/quarduple an hour's work at my job, which paying an awesome $7.45 an hour, LOL. 

Keep going at it, Ghost, you know what you're doing ;p I bet this colt is doing sliding stops and sorting cattle at the end of your length of training.  Good luck!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

cowgirl928 said:


> When she does something I am proud of the pressure is released and she gets a little scratch on the neck


Treats, scratch on a sweet spot... the point is not what positive reinforcement you use(so long as it's actually reinforcing to the animal), but that you use it, IMO:wink:


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Loosie, I'd invite you to come and try riding my boy but you would end up dead! 
I'd love to see how you think you'd treat them from onboard!

Horses need to know who the leader is in order to feel safe, once they feel safe they will work with you and let you do anything to them.

My horse is not forced to do anything. He wants to do it because I asked him too.

Treating horses results in bargey ill mannered horses who mug you for sweets.

My ponies get treats only when I want to cuddle with them or when I'm trying to force something horrible tasteing down them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly Faye, I respect that you have a different attitude, I'm just giving mine:wink:
Lo


faye said:


> I'd love to see how you think you'd treat them from onboard!


Well, a good scratch on the withers often goes a long way. But if you're talking food treats specifically, of course you can give them while riding too. But depends what you're doing whether you'd want to IMO, and I don't personally use food treats much under saddle.



> Horses need to know who the leader is in order to feel safe, once they feel safe they will work with you and let you do anything to them.


Couldn't agree more. It seems a common assumption that if people use food treats they must 'spoil' their horses & not teach them manners, whatever, but while I'm not speaking for everyone of course, I use it, & think most people do, in conjunction with... well, everything else - it's complimentary to, not exclusive to other methods & tools of teaching 'respect', etc.



> Treating horses results in bargey ill mannered horses who mug you for sweets.


That may be your experience, but that's like saying using whips will result in a whip shy horse IMO. If you're clear & consistent & teach your horse 'manners', he'll learn them, with or without food treats. If you're not a good trainer & don't teach manners, they won't learn any, or they'll learn bad ones, with or without food.



> My ponies get treats only when I want to cuddle with them or when I'm trying to force something horrible tasteing down them.


Mine get treats only when they're showing good manners, regardless what I'm doing/asking of them... and when I'm trying to force something horrible tasting down them!:wink:


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

There in lies the diffenece I think Loosie. 
I expect good manners from mine, I dont expect to have to reward them for being polite. If they do something exceptional they may get a treat if I have one on me, but just every day basic manners is not a treatable thing, and if they step out of line then the world comes crashing down round thier ears.

Mine are polite and willing with or without a treat. Reeco can be lead around by a 4 yr old child and Jeff is a para horse.

You cant treat Reeco from on his back as the act of leaning over freaks him out. Oh and before you say it no he does not need more "sacking out" he has been "sacked out" for months, he has worn a scarecrow in walk trot and canter, the scarecrow has hung from his side and between his legs, he wil happily wear a tarpaulin or a plastic bag however his past has taught him that a real person moving on his back means either one hell of a beating or a lot of pain from his pelvis. 
The first few times he had me off he paniced and went to the corner of the school where he stood, shaking from head to foot and verry very obviously expecting to be beaten within an inch of his life. I have never seen anything quite like it before, i've delt with many abused horses but Reeco was the most terified of the lot. He is now rideable in all walk trot and canter (something some proffessionals said would never happen) however you cannot do your girth up whilst on him as it panics him, you cannot lean over a shoulder as it panics him and you certainly cannot carry a stick!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I tried real hard to stay out of this conversation, Loosie is doing a wonderful job explaining it all. And clearly this audience isn't welcome to food based rewards. While I try to only offer those sorts of suggestions to people open to new thoughts and ideas and I try not to force it on people who clearly, in their mind have decided food rewards are not right (for whatever reason they've chosen).

But I had to step in here. I don't mind if people have varying opinions - but get your facts straight before you make wide-spread accusations. 
Positive reinforcement makes no more pushy horses than negative reinforcement. Used correctly it makes wonderful, kind willing horses, the same as negative reinforcement. Used poorly can result in dangerous situations - also the same results as negative reinforcement used poorly.
The reason many people opt for positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement (or opt to _add_ positive reinforcement onto their existing training using negative reinforcement) is because it gives you more options.
Some horses would need to be truly brutalized to be able to _force_ them to do something soley through negative reinforcement. But with the addition of positive reinforcement the amount of force can be reduced (or even eliminated in willing horses). 

The idea that food=pushy horses, I agree with Loosie, is the same as whips=whip shy horses. I would even go on to say that positive reinforcement has proved itself so _strong_a training tool that horses will grasp concepts and skills faster than a human may have intended.
A horse at a professional jumping stable I work at has trained all the stable hands that when he kicks his wall he wants more hay. One day he probably kicked the wall out of frustration - they fed him to shut him up. Now he's learned that wall-kicking=food reward. No human intended for him to learn that, and being a terrible habit no one likes it, but they did train him to do that.
While on the other hand food rewards can also produce very polite, willing horses when the reward is timed as appropriately as a release of pressure. This is _why_we use a clicker or some other bridging agent. I certainly can't feed my horse while I'm teaching her to trot undersaddle. But I can click when she picks up the trot, at the same time as I release the pressure with my legs and when we stop the trot I'll lean forward and give her her treat. She knows click=yes so I don't need to be shoving food in her mouth _while_ she's trotting, I can wait until after because the click clearly marked the action I want to see more of. 


There is _much_ more to positive reinforcement and the benefits of using it. But there is already a very well written thread, written by people far more experienced than myself, that explains the psychology behind CT, how and why it works, and how to use it safely and effectively for horses. If you're interested in learning about positive reinforcement please read it - if you are _not_ interested in learning about it, please don't go around telling everyone how terrible it is when you don't _actually_ understand the way it works.

Here's the thread for reference:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


ETA: OP, sounds like your stallion is coming along well, congrats


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Oh I understand positive reinforcement perfectly well thanks I use positive reinforcement in combination with negative reinforcement i.e a pat or praise when the pony has done perticularly well.

I do NOT agree with using "treats" or "food" and my opinion clicker training is probably best not aired on a public forum.

ETA perhaps you should read up on negative reinforcement, there is never any need at all to brutalise a horse!


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

Subbing. Very interested in this. 
We ride horses with spurs, sticks and treats! OMG, how come we are alive? Ok, i am not a trainer... yet.. however I have a few trainers and learn from them. 
and for one, all horses get bucket feed rewards AFTER a lesson, no matter how they did, training sessions ended on good note, and through the lesson they get pats or half pats on their neck/withers for exceptional understanding, and their best reward is a few minutes walk with loose reign after good work. then we pick it up again, preparing the horse for it ofc. And they get treats randomly too - we walk past the box and give it smth, or suddenly bring it a carrot, or give one before cleaning, but they dont look for them - they know they get their dose after work and they wait for it.

However, there is this one horse that gets a treat every time the rider gets on. Ok, not every time anymore, but was for a long time. One person stood at the head. the rider climbs on from a mounting block, and the treat is given when the rider is on. This was to avoid any crazy behaviour, as once the trainer tried to mount him from the ground and was almost killed. Nobody tries that anymore. but now we can get on without a treat - the trainer holds him when throws me on to walk him off, no treat given. And they also mount him, bend his neck and give him a treat from the saddle too, if noone is available to hold him and give the treat. but there been cases were there is not treat and he doesnt do anything.. he has learnt to be nice.. 
that is just an example of a very special horse, that has unknown past, was very afraid and panicky, but now is a good horse.  with treats and with whips and spurs and lots of work


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> If you had seen this horse during starting getting him used to the rope one leg hobble you would think differently.


Think differently about what? I don't even know what we're disagreeing about. I was agreeing. Do you disagree that he should be started using a foot rope? 

As far as the treats, I'm sure the clicker trainers and what-not will have a come-apart but I have to comment on his madness. How many successful *professional trainers* do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, i mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices. Pressure and release is and always will be the tried-and-true, proven and tested way of horse trainers who actually make a living and turn a profit training horses. Clickers and treats is the way of people who post YouTube videos. I don't take treat training seriously and as far as I'm concerned it's not even a relevant method. 
Just my opinion


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Subbing....


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## Little Jane (Mar 7, 2013)

Subbing.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I use both clicker training (CT ) and pressure/release (PR) to train my horses. I find both really useful. Mostly I use pressure/release because either the concept is simple and I can release at the instant the horse does the behavior. I especially use pressure/release when the horse is trying to avoid doing something they already know how to do. In that case the pressure is usually moving their feet. I use CT when the behavior is complex or it is not possible to time a release at the instant of the behavior. An example right now is collection. I can click while we ride when I get collection or I get collection for a longer duration. 

I think you can use PR for everything but I think sometimes CT can increase the speed of learning and also deepen a learned response because the horse is doing the behavior at liberty. A horse willingly does something without being pulled or pushed by anything when it is a well trained behavior. 

And there are professional horse trainers who use CT successfully. One example is Shawna Karresh who trains for Beezy Madden. And actually, we ALL use food to train our horses. My horses come when I call and whistle for them because I always do that when I go out to feed them so they connect my calling to feed. Now, if they get loose and run to visit the neighbors (this never happens to anyone else I'm sure!) I just call them and they come running home. CT is just a way to REFINE the learning that takes place. Now I can make a sound ( I make a "clop" sound instead of using a clicker now) at the instant the horse is doing what I want so the horse knows what it was that I reward. PR requires this good timed response like CT, only you release at the instant of the response you want. 

Hope that makes sense. It's hard to respond on a smart phone but that's all that works at my house in the boonies! And I respect other trainers and their methods. We all seek success and if you are successful with your method, you're good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cobra (Jan 30, 2013)

LOL - love how this thread turned into a debate re: clicker training and other methods.  Just to add my 2 cents.....i don't believe there is ONE right way to train a horse. Horses have different personalities & different learning curves. What works for one may not work for another. CT has it's place in training, as does PR and many other methods. Generally, i think the saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies - however, there are some horses that require a firmer hand. Some horses do get too amped up in regards to food, and CT is probably not the best option. In many cases, CT is a very good tool to use. There are also some horses so spoiled by people that they require drastic measures (which should only be undertaken by an experienced professional) in order to undo the damage. To sum it up, it all depends on the horse.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

cobra said:


> LOL - love how this thread turned into a debate re: clicker training and other methods.  Just to add my 2 cents.....i don't believe there is ONE right way to train a horse. Horses have different personalities & different learning curves. What works for one may not work for another. CT has it's place in training, as does PR and many other methods. Generally, i think the saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies - however, there are some horses that require a firmer hand. Some horses do get too amped up in regards to food, and CT is probably not the best option. In many cases, CT is a very good tool to use. There are also some horses so spoiled by people that they require drastic measures (which should only be undertaken by an experienced professional) in order to undo the damage. To sum it up, it all depends on the horse.


Exactly what I was trying to say Cobra, only better. When I was little, like 12 yo, my neighbor Mr Thompson was an old rancher that everyone used to bring their horses to when they had a problem. He told me there were many ways to skin a cat and some horses required a different approach. He was patient and firm. He would put a horse who couldn't be loaded in a trailer into an paddock with a trailer and put its feed and water in the trailer, first at the entrance and each day move it further in. He said never get mad and never be in a hurray and you'll be okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## onuilmar (Feb 8, 2013)

By definition positive reinforcement is ANYTHING that increases the likelihood of a behavior. 

And by definition negative reinforcement is ANYTHING that decreases the likelihood of a behavior.

Also, when rewards (PR) are given, the trainer may not always be aware of WHAT behavior is being reinforced. Hence, nipping with food rewards.

The difficulty with negative reinforcement is that it is often results in many other unwanted behaviors. (In people those can often be expressed as aggression and hostility.) 

People often are not aware of HOW behavior is being rewarded (in animals or other people). But be aware that ALL behavior is supported by some sort of reward schedule. If one loses one's money in a soda machine, one stops using it. If one loses money at a casino, one puts down more money. Classically different reward schedules.

Just my two cents.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Like I've tried to get across, not at all trying to make an argument, just explaining where I think the differences in perception lie. It's an 'each to his own' thing IMO, about food treats, but we're getting hung up on food again, when IMO it's not about treats, it's about understanding & using +R effectively, food or otherwise.



faye said:


> There in lies the diffenece I think Loosie.
> I expect good manners from mine, I dont expect to have to reward them for being polite. If they do something exceptional they may get a treat if I have one on me, but just every day basic manners is not a treatable thing,


I don't get the 'there in' difference you're assuming above, as I could say the same as you just have:wink:. I generally keep food treats for Extra Special stuff & teaching new behaviours.



> Oh I understand positive reinforcement perfectly well thanks I use positive reinforcement in combination with negative reinforcement i.e a pat or praise


Patting may well be a positive reinforcement for some horses, or it may be associated with negative reinforcement, or even can effectively be a punishment. Praise likewise, can become a *conditioned* reinforcer, but not necessarily a positive one. So I think vital to understand the concepts well... whether or not you use +R.:wink:



> How many successful *professional trainers* do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, i mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices. Pressure and release is and always will be the tried-and-true, proven and tested way of horse trainers


I do personally know of a number of other professional trainers who use food treats *as one of the many 'tools'*. The only famous one I can think of off the top of my head right now is Klaus Hempfling, if I ignore the many professional 'trick' type trainers I know of. 

I just don't get people's problem with trick training v's basic, 'normal' training though. If anything, I think there are many trainers I know of that don't get how to teach certain tricks, but don't know of any trick trainers that don't also know how to teach the basics very well too. I think many tricks would be impossible/extremely difficult to teach with only -R & punishment.

I agree with you to a large degree that 'clicker training' - meaning using a clicker or such, by the book type methods - is most valuable IMO to *people* learning how to train. I don't feel the need for 'props' personally, but I do find it helps for people to use a clicker or such when they're learning - seems to help them focussing on particulars & getting their timing right. 

But then again, there has been a lot of study into this method, on all sorts of animals - humans included - and there are some advantages to using these type 'tools' in the way the lessons come across... And many professional trainers & teachers of other animals - particularly non-domestic ones and mentally challenged human students - would disagree thoroughly that it's only for novice trainers to use.

I also agree thoroughly that 'pressure & release'(negative reinforcement) is/will always be the *major* vital principle/method in horse training. Just that it needn't be the *only* one. As said before, IMO +R is best used as complimentary to general training, not exclusive to it.



> "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"


Ha ha, yes, that's also true!:lol:


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So happy to see all the comments - I completely agree with most things posted up.

Horses, like all creatures learn more than one way, using a combination of the different ways of learning (+R -R +P -P) is probably the best way to fully teach a horse anything. I always opt to take the path of least resistance _first_ then gradually increasing the 'pressure' as needed. So typically I start with clicker training type skills, when I need to up the anti - if CT isn't cutting it for a specific skill, or I need to back up or more strongly reinforce a skill I'll add pressure/release. It's only rare I need to use +punishment (adding something unwanted as punishment), typically with very new horses who are potentially dangerous - or horses who aren't mine who don't do CT . But find occasionally -Punishment (The removal of something good for unwanted behavior) has made drastic differences in some horses I've worked with. 
When doing CT, my mare had a tendency to engulf my whole hand to grab her treat, which made me nervous, so whenever I saw her reach out with her mouth wide to grab the treat she'd loose the treat. It didn't take her more than two lost treats to learn she had to take the treat gently from my palm. 
She's learned to give to regular tack with a mix of pressure/release and CT to back it up, this way, should I die, she will be useful to riders who only know CT.


Loosie I can't agree with you more about professional trainers.
While most 'trick' trainers I know are also fluent in training basic (and advanced) riding/working skills, most traditional trainers I know haven't got a clue how to teach something out side of the box.


I also wanted to add about the 'tools'. I'm _SO_ not the type of person to buy gimmicks. Gimmicks are why I haven't looked twice at most NH trainers, while I'll read their books and learn their skills (just to add to my bag of tricks), I'll not likely be purchasing any of their 'products'.
In CT, I was very much the same - I made my own 'target' by just using a sparkly rainbow crop we had laying around. Instead of using a clicker I used a smooch noise I made with my mouth - this way I didn't have to carry anything particular around.
I found two things, using the target saved my butt in a lot of situations (if you read the challenge accepted thread I linked earlier you can see one of those instances) - but I also found myself very dependent on this tool. I don't like to be dependent on anything that isn't part of me or always attached to me. So I've started teaching my horses to target anything I face them toward or point at, just started but it's going well now  
As for the clicker, I found I liked making a smooch noise, it was always on me and easy to do. But seeing clickers for $1 at petco I picked one up for the sake of it. I tried using it with one horse and saw a great difference - my timing was _much_ more accurate and they always heard it - they connected the dots of click=yes faster with the clicker than with my smooch noise (even a new horse I just started picked it up much quicker). So I'm making myself a little bracelet so that I can have my clicker on me at all times with no issues. I thought it would be tough to carry and use my hands, but it truly isn't - even teaching my belgian to hold his feet up with CT while I put his thrush medicine (which hurts him quite a bit) I was able to hold up his feet, the medicine, the cotton balls and the hoof pick and still click+treat when needed without much issue (then again I have lots of pockets!!)
So the tools seem gimmicky and you can do without them, but I found some were easily replaceable and others really are the way they are for a reason.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Don't know much about Hempfling. What event(s) does he do? Or does he just help people with bad horses. I've yet to see a clicker or treat-based trainer win a legit competition, unless it was a competition to against other NH trainers with a colt at a join-up contest to see who could get em to foller ya around. And I'm not too sure they could even do that. 

Something just goes off in my head when people classify NH trainers and treat-feeding trainers with real horse trainers. There is a difference. 99% of NH clinicians couldn't win a real competition to save their life, especially in a performance class. But people think they're somehow *better*....I guess it's because they have that crafty way of bashing traditional horsemen with all their babbling. 

And something also goes off in my head when I hear about horses being trained in a manner in which they don't make mistakes. See that doesn't work. Oh, you can get some desired results. But after a few dozen horses nobody will have to tell you that a horse that hasn't learned boundaries is a dangerous horse.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> And actually, we ALL use food to train our horses. My horses come when I call and whistle for them because I always do that when I go out to feed them so they connect my calling to feed. Now, if they get loose and run to visit the neighbors (this never happens to anyone else I'm sure!) I just call them and they come running home.


Nope, when I call my horses from the field they are coming in to work. Feed will come after work. They still come galloping in. 
Heck, they went out on friday for the first time in 3 weeks (flooding has closed our fields) and 20 mins after putting them out I went to get them, I only had to pic up thier headcollars and they were at the gate.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Poo, where did that response I just wrote go??

Anyway the gist was... I'm not big into the competition scene. Have seen a few egs of people using treat training in 'normal' competition, inc I'm pretty sure, Grand Prix level dressage, but you're asking the wrong person if you want names. I suspect however, that most people don't *publicly* use treats, given the common attitude about it, but that's not to say they never use them, or other forms of +R. 

It really makes 'something go off' in my own head AC, when I hear people making such fanatical sounding judgement comments about 'real trainers' v's anything you don't personally believe in. It's just like the 'shoes v's bare' hooha - I'm irritated by both those who preach shoes as the be-all & discount every conceivable 'con', as well as those who preach that all horses should be bare & that conventional shoes are always wrong. How about sticking to just discussing the pros & cons of different approaches *in your opinion & experience*, rather than sounding like a... Horseman. 

I wonder about your big assumption about 'NH' people in the competition world, how much 'can't' compares with 'not interested'. There are a number of top dressage riders & trainers these days I've seen who have 'gone natural'(or perhaps you prefer feral). But perhaps that doesn't count if they started out 'normal'.

I just don't get what you're on about with your last paragraph AC. Who's horses &/or trainers claim not to make mistakes?? Obviously those trainers aren't human... or :shock: perhaps they're telling porkys!:lol:


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> THow many successful *professional trainers* do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, i mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices.


I've answered this question several times, a quick google search can show you several lists of professional, competitive riders who use Clicker Training and many more are rising.

Here's my quote from the last time I answered this: 
A quick google search on professional riders who use clicker training found me this, from a professional clicker trainer:
"I know Jane Savoie uses clicker training some, and if you have
Facebook, you can see this photo of Sue Blinks doing target work with
Flim Flam

Facebook

Also, Beezie Madden has used it with her show jumpers.

Most of these people were introduced to it via Shawna Karrasch, who
Uses it a bit differently, in some respects than Alex does. Most of
These upper level riders use it to sort our trouble spots in their
Training, rather than incorporating it into everything they do. Still
It lends the technology a bit of credibility.

As to people claiming it's only parlour tricks..... well, that shows
They don't understand the concept. Alex has found ways to use it to
Truly transform horses, and I use it as physiotherapy with some of
Mine. We can thank Kay Laurence for the concept of Microshaping, which
Alex took even further, and can benefit many horses.

Conventional training, and the goals and values that govern it assume
That the horse MUST be in a bridle to achieve collection, to learn
Lateral work, etc. Alex has shown us that shaping a horse to balance
His body is no different than shaping a dolphin to swim through a
Hoop. It can be done without physical manipulation. When training
Exclusively with negative reinforcement and punishment, in the form of
Rein contact, rider weight and rider legs, one doesn't have other
Tools available to show the horse how he can organize his body.

Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
Find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
About it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
Carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
Eventually, the people notice our horse is actually doing pretty well,
Or else they have moved on and forgotten about us completely.

Cheers,
Cindy M (who worked for six months under the skeptical eye of her
Husband... then he finally announced that my "problem horse" had
Become the best one in the barn to handle.)"

As well as
"
There are lots of great people out there who use clicker training. You mentioned Steffan Peters. There is also Beezie Patton-Maddon, Sue Blinks, Jane Savoie. All of these are Olympic Riders. And they are not in the closet about clicker training. Ruth Hogan Paulson has also used clicker training.�


Two years ago, a student of Jane's came to our farm because she was afraid of her horse. In the course of a weekend, I taught her more about clicker training. She went on to be a super team mate for her horse and was accepted into Steffan Peter's NEDA clinic last year. And I might add they looked "Mav-o-lous"


So, don't worry about what's being said. Those are the ones who just don't know.�


Along with the people on this list there are some 2700 on the yahoo group Clickryder. And Equine Clicker Trainer Shawna Karrasch has 4739 friends on facebook.�


Warmly,
Dolores"


That is a list of several professional, successful riders in different sports who use CT. 






One of my favorite competitive riders who uses clicker training is Gergia Bruce, here's a video of her and her horse (both reining and dressage as well as some cute tricks) - using a variety of different tack and lack there of  and even working two horses at once!


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Loosie-I appreciate that you're not into competition. I really do get that. And I also respect your diplomatic approach to discussing these subjects. Always see both sides. 

Things may be different in Australia. But here the NH clinicians can't keep from making cute comments about traditional training. They make it seem like some horrible cruel torture system. In truth, the good hands I know (and I try to do the same), use very easy to understand pressure and release techniques and are just as easy with a horse as the NH people. 

So that's why I would like to see these clinicians put their money where their mouth is and enter up in the event of their choice. Reining, cutting, reined cowhorse. Show those guys how its done. Most wont, too much on the line and they wouldn't be able to preach to their followers how much better they are if they get beat. 

As far as the shoeing comment, I never "preach shoes as the be-all and discount every conceivable con". I've even said some of mine are barefoot. (Right now only one is shod) I've also said that roughly half my work was shoeing, the other half trimming. So if that was aimed at me, you might be twisting things a little


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> Equine Clicker Trainer Shawna Karrasch has 4739 friends on facebook.�
> [/url]


She must be good


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

OP, how is the stallion's training progressing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> So that's why I would like to see these clinicians put their money where their mouth is and enter up in the event of their choice. Reining, cutting, reined cowhorse. Show those guys how its done. Most wont, too much on the line and they wouldn't be able to preach to their followers how much better they are if they get beat.
> 
> As far as the shoeing comment, I never "preach shoes as the be-all and discount every conceivable con". I've even said some of mine are barefoot. (Right now only one is shod) I've also said that roughly half my work was shoeing, the other half trimming. So if that was aimed at me, you might be twisting things a little


To the first para, yes! Bring it on, I say! Not just 'naturals' either that I reckon should put their money where their mouth is. A few years ago they did a 'way of the horse' comp at Equitana here, generally a 'natural' event, but one 'normal' trainer decided to have a go - failed dismally! Later in the day when the others were riding their horses, he still hadn't managed to catch his!

Second para, no, not at all meaning to say you come across like that at all, just using it as an eg. I really respect the way you seem to be quite objective about that subject & it surprised me your last post here sounded rather... spikey! But perhaps we both hit eachother's nerve, by the sound of things:wink:


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

loosie said:


> To the first para, yes! Bring it on, I say! Not just 'naturals' either that I reckon should put their money where their mouth is. A few years ago they did a 'way of the horse' comp at Equitana here, generally a 'natural' event, but one 'normal' trainer decided to have a go - failed dismally! Later in the day when the others were riding their horses, he still hadn't managed to catch his!


We're too far apart in our ideas of legit trainers ma'am. Later in the day he was still trying to catch his horse? Really? In a roundpen i guess? This wasn't a trainer then, it was a kid or some **********. I will say this, in the states a normal trainer is wasting their time going to one of these colt petting contests. Because the second you use a technique that isn't in the NH handbook, they'll boo you out of the building. Its a house full of nh people. 

All the pros I've ever known would make pretty quick work of catching a wild one in a little round corral. Mostly because they broke a lot of colts before they learned how to train.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> We're too far apart in our ideas of legit trainers ma'am. Later in the day he was still trying to catch his horse? Really? In a roundpen i guess? This wasn't a trainer then, it was a kid or some **********.


Well... I don't know what a ********** is, but sounds like a good lable for the guy IMO!:lol: Wasn't at all saying I thought him a good trainer(in the least!) but he is an experienced professional one. He's actually a 'performance horse' trainer, from a training establishment that has a pretty good rep.... Albeit he wasn't the founder of the establishment & it's rep does seem to be going downhill somewhat in recent years.... & they've turned out some 'push button' but stressy, 'uncatchable' horses.... Won't name names or mention relationships because that may give names away, but the term 'coat tails' might give you an idea why he's got the rep but obviously(unless he was having a real bad day:lol not the skill.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry but if the trainer couldnt catch a colt in a round pen then it wasnt a decent trainer. 
Heck Any decent trainer worth thier salt round here would have a completly wild pony, broken, kid safe and in the county show ring within 6 weeks here. It would be caught within 5 mins and headcollar on shortly there after.


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## dknatura (Feb 25, 2013)

That sounds like one of those horses you cannot beat with tricks or methods - with such a strong animal there is only one way and that is REAL leadership - based on authentic natural authority, and that can never be achieved through any horsey trainer education but only by very serious personal development. And such a horse will rather die than letting himself humiliate so much to lie down in front of a human being who he does not deeply respect. And you cant beat it into them either (hope no one thinks about that as an option!). Poor lad - sounds like there probably aint much hope for him in the world he was born into  - if he finally ends up giving in he will just be a mountain of functioning flesh, and if he doesn't I guess he will be at the end of his road... but perhaps better physically dead than mentally killed.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

DKnatura, unfortunatly you are anthromorphising horses and show how little you actualy understand of how the equine brain works. 

Horses do not understand the concept of humiliation and thier concept of respect is different.

Horses will not volentarily lie down infront of a person unless they feel *safe* that is very different from respect. On the floor they are at thier most vulnerable to predators and they cannot get up quickly, hence most horses will not stay lieing down when a person who they do not feel safe with is around.

Lieing a horse down will not turn him into a robot, it will teach him that even at his most vulnerable humans will not hurt him and it is safe to put his trust in this person. Once they trust humans again then respect for the leader of the herd (i.e the Human) will follow very quickly.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

So any update? Nothing?


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## dknatura (Feb 25, 2013)

Dear Faye - I think that depends higly upon how respect is defined. As I understand the word respect it has everything to do with feeling safe, because I am talking about that very sensitive kind of respect which a leading mare is earning in the hedr - without fighting and mocking. If that is the reason for lying down I have no problem with that, but if we talk about a dominant horse that refuses to lie down and is being taught to do so on command, then I insist that this is in the horses sense as close to humiliation as we can get in using that word in connection to horses (I agree that is not directly applicable in our own understanding). I quote you: "Horses will not volentarily lie down infront of a person unless they feel *safe* that is very different from respect. On the floor they are at thier most vulnerable to predators and they cannot get up quickly, hence most horses will not stay lieing down when a person who they do not feel safe with is around." Apparently the horse was not feeling safe, and in my inderstanding that is the same as saying it was not respecting the human being (respecting in a positive sense - no involvement of punishment, pressure or any kind of negative influences) 

"Lieing a horse down will not turn him into a robot, it will teach him that even at his most vulnerable humans will not hurt him and it is safe to put his trust in this person. Once they trust humans again then respect for the leader of the herd (i.e the Human) will follow very quickly." I do not agree - you cannot TEACH a horse to FEEL SAFE! You can only demonstrate to the horse that you have the capacity to protect it - and I mean very sensitively and gently - literally without any kind of pressure - then he will respect and trust you and thus feel safe! And then I agree that he might perhaps even lie down and feel comfortable about it.

I admittedly think you are a bit quick in your judgement of how much I know about the horse's brain, considering that my post was very brief and saying very little about that point. But of course you are entitled to think what you may like about my knowledge of horses.


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

So,, I have nothing really to say about the stud.. but wish you luck and cant wait to see the outcome.. BUT on the BUCK movie. I started reading how people said they should watch it.. so I spend the last hour watching that.. It was great IMO.. lol Glad I read this...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'd been avoiding this thread.

All I'll say is I have never achieved respect by getting a horse to lay down.

Gained respect pretty fast from moving their feet though. Seen complete 180s done in one session on even studs like this one.

Good luck.


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