# Color Help (BD X PF)



## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

Okay, so my 9/22/17 filly started out as a sort of champagne tobiano. After a while, she started molting and she had some darker patches. In some places, there was starburst and dappling on her rump, above her elbows. On her flanks and the area above her ribs looks like a light buckskin or palomino. Also, her eyelashes and her hooves are white. Her sire is of the average pulling Belgian Draft Horse, whereas her dam is a black roan with a bay base tobiano Paso Fino. Others said Dreamer (my filly), could somehow be a black silver dapple. That would be only if one of her parents carried a silver gene. I have no info on what color genetics either of the parents' carry, so I can't really determine anything myself. I would love to get some help from all you more educated folks.

Thank you, I look forward to getting some advice!!!


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

Pictures


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## iloverains (Apr 1, 2011)

Born the same day as my filly! Except she's a clear bay. 

Photo's would help and also young horses obviously change colour loads before they have their mature colour. Kinda just sounds like a Buckskin with white socks, does she have a bald face or wide balze? That would make sense with the white eyelashes.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't think Belgians carry silver, and it would 100% have shown up on the dam as it ALWAYS expresses on a black or bay base. It only hides on red (because silver affects black pigment).

What do you mean black roan with a bay base? A horse can't be black AND bay. 

Colour possibilities from black (roan, tobiano) to chestnut are black, bay, or chestnut (roan OR tobiano, not solid, as they are mutations at the same locus and the dam will have to pass one or the other), depending on parents' genetics.

If either parent was champagne, it would express. Champagne does not hide. Therefore your filly cannot be champagne.

Could it be possible your mare is smoky black? There is no visual difference between black and smoky black. If she has a cream parent she might carry cream, and your filly might be palomino or buckskin.

But we do need photos!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Belgians (unless Brabant) here in the states would be chestnut (ee). Mar that is black based would be E and depending on color of baby could be EE or Ee. Roan would add Rn_ . The _ would be because again we don't know baby's color. So she could be RnRn (which would mean a roan baby) or Rnrn which would mean baby could be either as the sire wouldn't pass this. If the mare is Bay she would have Ag_ and again depending on her status may or may not pass. Now the stallion could pass Flaxen or pangere depending on his genes and that could give you the white eyelashes on a red based baby. Pangere could effect either but would not pass the white eyelashes on a black base that I know of. Pics would help and clarification on mother's color.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> Roan would add Rn_ . The _ would be because again we don't know baby's color. So she could be RnRn (which would mean a roan baby) or Rnrn which would mean baby could be either as the sire wouldn't pass this.


Not quite. Roan is a mutation of the KIT locus and the mare is roan and tobiano (another KIT mutation) which means the mare is RnTo so has to pass one or the other. As the foal is tobiano she cannot be roan.


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## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

*how do i post photos?*

how do we post photos???? I thought we couldn't. I am new to this app. She is black and has a bunch of tiny white hairs; black roan. She has an undercoat and it is a bay which shows up before winter and after winter. It is very rare but some... Belgians VERY SELDOMLY carry a silver gene. I will post photos if someone can help me figure out what to do. LOL


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

If you're posting from mobile I can't help (I refuse to use forums on my phone). On PC or Mac, if you hit the "post reply" button (the green one between the post and the 'tags' part) or the "go advanced" button below the quick reply box, it'll take you to a section where you can click on a button that reads "manage attachments" and that will open up a popup you can use to upload your photos.

Bear in mind, though, that because it's a popup your popup blocker might block it!


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## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

*pictures of dreamer (birth -suckling- 6 months)*

All of these are from when she was born to a couple days ago. Tomorrow she will be officially 6 months old. She is Belgian crossed with Paso Fino as I have said before. I attached 9 pictures but i cant see them when i post this. I hope you got them.

:runninghorse2:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Is that the mare saddled in the first picture? If so she is rabicano...the white on her tail ("skunk tail") and her flanks. Does she have white anywhere else? if not she is not roan. If so then she could be roan AND rabicano, but I'm guessing you're mistaking the white hairs.

I think you're overthinking the color. The genetics do NOT change. They are what they are.

I'm guessing by your description mare is seal brown (looks black but still has some cinnamon along her muzzle flanks, that can be more or less noticeable depending on the season)

So mare is E/? A/?

Sire is e/e f/f if the typical Belgian.

So your foal could be black/bay/brown/chestnut. She cannot have champagne, cream, etc. Those things would all show on the parents and aren't found in Belgians.

I agree she looks a little off. I think it may be because she was a late baby and didn't really have a summer coat and went right into "fluff". But if that's mom and dad is the "typical Belgian" then there is no other option. You can always have her color tested.

I'm going with chestnut of the options, could be her mane and tail are all white from the pinto or that she also has flaxen (less likely). Foal obviously got the tobiano, but the base color is not as obvious. I don't see roan from that pic but she either has it or she doesn't. It is an "extra" like the pinto, it doesn't change her base color.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I can't help you with the genetics, but I just wanted to say what an adorable little lady she is <3 Holy moly! So cute!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I am guessing she will shed out to bay or chestnut with pangare.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Do you have any additional pictures of the mare, preferably clean and in normal light? I don't think I see roan either, and tobiano itself can cause some ticking in the coat.

Does the foal have dark-tipped ears? I am leaning towards bay/brown due to the dark muzzle as a foal.. Will certainly be interesting to see what spring shed brings!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Wait- I just noticed her forelock fuzz was colored in the foal pics. So it's NOT white due to tobiano (white is always white), but lightened as she aged. So rule out black/bay unless has silver which she would need to get from dad which seems very very random if they even carry it (though she DOES sort of look silver it's just so random.. if I didn't know her breeding I would have said that from the get go)... So either silver, or chestnut +flaxen...

So either mom carries flaxen or dad carries silver, we just need to figure out which is less random!! lol or dad is not dad?

Silver is the only thing that will lighten mane (and tail) on a black based horse.

There is always testing.


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## iloverains (Apr 1, 2011)

I have no idea about actually genetically influenced colours, but looking at the photo's, if I had to guess she looks like a sooty Buckskin - but as some of the others said, that's not a possible outcome! 

I guess either get her tested, or time will tell!! She's super cute though!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I just wanted today she is so beautiful! And her momma is too! Very cool and unusual cross. 

I have a QH/Missouri Foxtrotter cross, and I thought that was a little different, but yours is even more unusual! My crossbred gelding does gait (although he is just as likely to trot as foxtrot). But it would be interesting to see if your baby has gait as she grows up. :smile: Your baby looks like a tank next to her mother! Maybe she will take more after her father's side of the family.


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## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

*The Dam (Paso Fino - Echo)*

Okay, so these are some pictures of the dam of Dreamer (Belgian Filly cross). Some winters she will be very black but still with white hairs on her body. She does not have any on her face but she has them on her chest, rump, and flanks. Over her tail, it is referred as "skunk tail." In the summer, she doesn't have as much bay on her muzzle, but in the winter she often does. In one picture I was riding her and that was when the sun was shining on her coat. You cant really see her bay color unless you take a flash picture at night like in one of the photos, or if she is in the sun like when I was riding her. I hope these help. I do not have any pictures of the sire but I am going to get my mom to drive me over to where he is pastured (which is 1 and 30min away) to go get some pictures so I can better see what traits Dreamer got from her parents. 


Thank you all so much for helping me out!!! I really appreciate your knowledge


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This is quite the mystery xD 
Are you opposed to getting the baby tested? Then we'd know for sure.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Your mare is lovely! I agree she is bay with a seal brown phenotype, since her cinnamon muzzle is very clear in one picture. I am actually even less sure if I think she is roan vs rabicano vs just tobiano, as she certainly has a lot of ticking in her flanks and the skunk tail, but she also shows ticking in her neck and chest that might point to a minimal roan. Tobiano can cause ticking too though.

You said the sire is a Belgian. Is he registered? The reason I ask is that Haflingers are known to carry silver and a big Haffie can look very similar to a small Belgian. I am still perplexed by the black-seeming body patches on the foal (that last picture of her laying in the straw, she sure seems the mousy color that blacks are often born), yet the pigment disappeared from her forelock..


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## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

The sire is probably not registered. Just a regular pulling Belgian stallion at an Amish farm. I am still in high school and had to get my horse trained well for cheap. The Amish trainer I sent my mare to lived 1 hour and 30min away from my house. One day the trainer called me and said my mare was untrainable... but I wasn't going to give up on my little Echo. Two months later when we went to pick her up, I knew he had lied. He told my mother that the Belgian stallion broke out a couple blocks down when my mare was in heat and you all know what happens after that. We were devastated because he tried to get us to sell her to him. We went to the vet and our vet said she was not pregnant. Forever after, my mother noticed Echos utters had gotten larger so we got her checked again, and just by rare chance she was pregnant. I am nervous to tell you all this cause I know the horse world can be a very judging world. It was an accident that has changed my life and to me, Dreamer is my little miracle. I am getting my mom to drive me to where the Belgian stallion is pastured so I can hopefully get some pictures... that is if it hasn't been sold to someone else. Thank you all so much for your knowledge and curiosity. I will post more if I ever go see the Sire. I could also get Dreamer tested but I've heard that it isn't always accurate.


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## SinceDayOne (Mar 21, 2018)

I hope that you all accept what I said above and don't judge me. I don't know if you all are religious or not but I do believe things happen for a reason and God intended for a surprise so beautiful to come and change me in a wonderful way. I love my horses more than anything in the world and I would never have brought her somewhere to be trained if I knew that would have been a likely outcome. Thank you all so much for your help.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

SinceDayOne said:


> The sire is probably not registered. Just a regular pulling Belgian stallion at an Amish farm.
> 
> I will post more if I ever go see the Sire. I could also get Dreamer tested but I've heard that it isn't always accurate.


I am very glad your mare came out of that ordeal ok. With the sire not registered, that opens up a big range of possibility as he may be a cross that carries silver.

Color testing, assuming you use a reputable lab, is quite accurate at least in terms of known genes. Testing her for extension, agouti, silver, and roan would be very precise. There is no test for rabicano currently, as that gene hasn't been identified. 

However, exactly what color(s) and pattern(s) Dreamer is doesn't really matter unless you decide to breed her at some point and want a specific color from the mating. I do hope you will update this thread once she is in her summer coat.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

As @phantomhorse13 says, color testing is generally quite accurate. (It's breed testing that's still pretty lacking)
I assume OP is just curious, and wants to know for that reason. 

I don't think anyone here is judging you. You have a beautiful little filly and accidents happen. That's just life. The only "judgement" (and I don't think it's really judgement, I think it stems from wanting the best for everyone on this forum, and hoping that they will learn from others' mistakes) comes when people knowingly put themselves in troubling situations.

EDIT - Added onto my post :')


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Looks like a silver dapple to me. Sounds like the guy wanted your horse and thought by claiming she was untrainable you'd sell her to him, cheap, glad to stuck to your guns.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Yes that was my thought as well. Sounds like a very unscrupulous trainer, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the "accidental" breeding wasn't at all an accident, after he put them together figuring he'd be able to buy your mare for cheap. I'm not sure about where you live but around here if someone's stud covers a mare by accident, the stud owner can be financially responsible for mare and foal up to time of foaling. One of the many, many reasons why I had both of my guys cut as soon as I could. 

-- Kai


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I am very glad your mare came out of that ordeal ok. With the sire not registered, that opens up a big range of possibility as he may be a cross that carries silver.
> 
> Color testing, assuming you use a reputable lab, is quite accurate at least in terms of known genes. Testing her for extension, agouti, silver, and roan would be very precise. There is no test for rabicano currently, as that gene hasn't been identified.
> 
> However, exactly what color(s) and pattern(s) Dreamer is doesn't really matter unless you decide to breed her at some point and want a specific color from the mating. I do hope you will update this thread once she is in her summer coat.


This exactly.

I agree both that mom is beautiful and is seal brown not black. However, tobiano and roan do not cause the skunk tail. So regardless of whether the ticking on her chest is roan or tobiano (and I go with roan, it's pretty extensive for just random ticking, but roan is testable if you want) she still has rabicano imo.

Anyways, not to do with baby. I agree that testing is the way to go if you're interested. You may be thinking of breed testing which is much more up in the air, but the color tests are pretty good.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Neither the American Belgian or Brabant which the American Belgian comes from carries Silver.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Yes but as sire is not registered but sounds like a backyard horse silver seems more and more likely. Thanks for confirming that though, I assumed as much but good to hear for sure.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

For some reason not all replies post until after I reply so I didn't see many of the replies after my first. I agree mare is seal brown with rabicano and likely roan. Stallion would likely be a cross and my guess would be haffie/Belgian and he carries silver. But I'd say wait until summer she what happens when shedding out. As others have said color testing is very accurate. Parentage verification is too. The testing to determine breed gives you likely breeds based on genes occur in selected breeds. Over simplifying but if XYZ is in breed 1, ABC breed 2, QRS breed 3 and XYC, breed 4, QBC breed 5 then they can give you guesses based on which gene pattern is present. So not accurate in this IS the breed but a good guess.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

My roans had the skunk tails.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

What a cute little blessing


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Haviris a true roan will not have a skunk tail. A horse can have both roan and rabicano though and a skunk tail could/would be present along with the true roan pattern. Many rabicano that are extensively ticked are mis identified and registered roan. There is no registration option for rabicano and if that is present the horse is supposed to be registered the base color with the roaning and skunk tail listed as markings those that aren't aware register as roan mistakenly. Metallic Cat is both a rabicano and roan if you want to see the two together. It makes for a flashy coat.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

After looking at the mare i also think she has rabicano rather than roaning.


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