# Sold my old mare not knowing she was in foal, what is the proper etiquette for this?



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> That said, I would wait until it becomes a rude gangly yearling and offer a small price to take it off their hands.


 LOL! very true


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

It posted twice for some reason, novice mistake I guess


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

It posted twice for some reason, novice mistake I guess


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

It is posting at the beginning and I want this at the end. My apologies.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Sorry it posted twice, not sure what's going on.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Trying to post at the end. Will try one more time....


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

This was a "handshake/friend" type of deal so my old mare could live out the rest of her delicate life in a wonderful place while bringing smiles to my friends little kids. So I didn't feel right asking anything in return, plus, this little foal was a surprise to us all. For sure wouldn’t want to ask them to pay for my stud horse paperwork. That’s kind of what I was referring to when I commented about expecting a stud fee. I guess what I should have said was I would have just appreciated an offer of some sort to help out, simply because I felt I was giving them a good deal. But I see now legally that is wrong so glad I didn't. This is also a little of where my "dealing with friends" comment came from. Sort of like going into business with family or friends, it usually doesn't work out too well sometimes LOL. Always have something in writing. 

I’m not a horse trader nor do I breed and sell horses. But had I known my 19 year old mare was bred I would have never let her go to them until after it was born and we would have made arrangements for me to keep the foal. They know how much she and my now gelding meant to me. But tough luck for me, that is my loss. 

The mare has now passed away unfortunately. Some of what I didn't disclose because I didn’t feel it was relevant to my original post. However, maybe I should have included it and asked, given my situation, would you offer your friend the foal? What I should have asked along with, did I handle the situation correctly from the very beginning is, do I even have any right to a claim him now. But I see now I’m basically grasping at a loss cause and my apologies for not simply stating this first off, but I didn't want to go into all the drama of the situation. 

But since I’ve opened myself up to this I will continue on with the rest of the story. I didn’t include that I took the mare back when it was time for him to be weaned. She was then 20 and he was rearing up on her, being a colt and needing to be weaned. So in her best interest I offered to bring her back home for safe keeping. After all, they never rode her anymore. But I would have let them whenever they wanted to. But she later coliced and I took her to the vet. Her stomach was twisted where the only option was surgery and with her age and the fact that her chances of even surviving the surgery or even recovery, knowing she had lived a long, happy life I called my friend with the bad news and we reluctantly let her go. Given the fact she was my horse since she was 7 and that she was in my care when she coliced I took care of the $400 vet bill. In hind-sight, how were we to know what the future was to hold. We live and learn. I just try to treat others the way I would want to be treated. My initial forum comes now that he is almost 2 years old and they do nothing with him. Is it appropriate to even ask to have him back? I realize I would need to offer to purchase him and not expect they give him to me legally. I understand now that I don’t even have a reasonable argument in the situation. However, they tell me how much of a handful he is. I want to say, welcome to having horses! I’ve offered to take him and work with him but they like seeing him in their pasture and being able to feed and pet him. The perfect life I wanted for my old mare, yet here we are, she is gone and they have her yearling who needs attention they don't know how to give. But, I don’t want to continue to offer more to them unless ultimately I can end up with him now, so I’m not sure how to handle it but at least I know I handled it right from the start. I know it’s basically a lost cause at this point and something I need to move on from. 

After reading all this I feel I did the right thing, and I'm lucky it didn't go bad in the fact they could have came after me for selling them a bred mare after initially only wanting a companion horse. They never would have wanted a foal but when it was with her in the stall that morning they couldn’t have been happier. My issue was first to be sure I handled my responsibilities correctly after it was born. (Hence my reason for even posting on here). My difficulty with it was the principal of the situation. Even with it being a friendly transaction of my old mare that I owned the majority of her life who was bred to my horse when I owned her and a young horse going to waste….Regardless, I realize now it is my loss. 
Bottom line is, no matter if it’s a friend or a stranger and no matter how old or young, always write up an agreement and do a vet check, because you never know.
I would have never imagined she would ever foal. All is well now and there are no hard feelings except they have a handful and I just would like to see it be trained and made into something and they have no desire to do so. After all, he had a great mother, and his sire, the youngster I own that is now a young gelding is the best horse on our place. But, you all have helped me realize that I can't worry about something that is not mine to worry about. And they know if they ever sell him I have first dibbs. Basically I've realized that's all I can hope for.

Sorry for any confusion. My first time at posting in a forum and didn’t feel the need to go into unnecessary aspects when all I wanted to know is how to handle the situation of selling a mare while unknowingly being bred. After all, it’s an embarrassing situation as far as I’m concerned. But thanks everyone for your insight, it has helped me to know I’ve done all I can and just to let it go. Hopefully someone will learn from my mistakes, as I have.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

I'm not a professional breeder; I simply love and enjoy my horses. I understand it takes a lot to care for and raise horses. So please don't pre-judge me as this was merely an honest mistake and I'm just curious as to how others would have handled it. 

To give you the background, I had an old mare that my parents got me when she was 7. She was very dear to me and when I had to retire her from barrel racing my family spent lots of money trying to get her bred because she had good bloodlines and had a trainer in mind to send it to. She had some problems and we were unable to raise a foal out of her. So we kept her for my nieces and nephews to have for a pleasure riding horse. Several years later when she was 19 we bought a weanling. At the time, stud colt, which we was not planning on keeping a stud because we don't have the facilities or the means to promote and stand a stud. Before he was old enough to cut he had gotten out with her while we were away and had someone looking after them. We didn’t think anything of it because after all, she was never able to be bred. Months went on and when he was old enough we got him cut. She was always an easy keeper, always fat so no sign or even a thought of her being bred, obviously. Why would that even cross our mind. Then a friend of mine wanted to buy my old mare for her kids and grandkids. They were very well off and I felt they would take good care of her and let her live out the rest of her life happy and healthy. A couple months later, lo and behold, she had a foal! We was all very surprised yet I was very distraught over it because I knew with her blood lines and the young horse of ours that the foal was out of whom we just gelded, it would be a nice horse. After all, here we spent lots of money trying to raise a foal out of her, talk about bad luck for us.

So out of curiosity, how that is typically handled. Like I said, I don't breed and sell horses; we have them as companions and enjoy them for ourselves. But with this being a "friend" situation, I didn't take any legal action or ask for the colt back. I feel I should have at least gotten a stud fee, but not ever standing a stud I had no idea what to charge. I looked at the situation as though my horse got out, accidently bred her so it was my fault, my loss. But, given the fact that both my old mare and our new young horse were special to us and this happened when I still owned her, it would have been nice to at least been offered the colt back. After all, they only wanted my old mare as a companion for the kids to pleasure ride and was sold an old, open mare with no intentions of ever wanting a foal. So without being criticized too much, I'm curious to know how others would have handled this. 

Now our friends have this beautiful colt that they can't do anything with and won't let me help them work with it and they love it so much I can't bring myself to ask for it or even offer to buy it back. I feel it’s just going to go to waste and grow up to be nothing but a pasture ornament. I guess at least it will be fed and well taken care of the rest of its life. I just feel like I should have been offered the foal but maybe I'm mistaken, that's why I'm posting this.

Thank you for your advice.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

TBlue98 said:


> I'm not a professional breeder; I simply love and enjoy my horses. I understand it takes a lot to care for and raise horses. So please don't pre-judge me as this was merely an honest mistake and I'm just curious as to how others would have handled it.
> 
> To give you the background, I had an old mare that my parents got me when she was 7. She was very dear to me and when I had to retire her from barrel racing my family spent lots of money trying to get her bred because she had good bloodlines and had a trainer in mind to send it to. She had some problems and we were unable to raise a foal out of her. So we kept her for my nieces and nephews to have for a pleasure riding horse. Several years later when she was 19 we bought a weanling. At the time, stud colt, which we was not planning on keeping a stud because we don't have the facilities or the means to promote and stand a stud. Before he was old enough to cut he had gotten out with her while we were away and had someone looking after them. We didn’t think anything of it because after all, she was never able to be bred. Months went on and when he was old enough we got him cut. She was always an easy keeper, always fat so no sign or even a thought of her being bred, obviously. Why would that even cross our mind. Then a friend of mine wanted to buy my old mare for her kids and grandkids. They were very well off and I felt they would take good care of her and let her live out the rest of her life happy and healthy. A couple months later, lo and behold, she had a foal! We was all very surprised yet I was very distraught over it because I knew with her blood lines and the young horse of ours that the foal was out of whom we just gelded, it would be a nice horse. After all, here we spent lots of money trying to raise a foal out of her, talk about bad luck for us.
> 
> ...


The foal belongs to the new owner of the mare.

If there are papers involved....you own them a breeding certificate.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

You have no claim to the foal and they were under no obligation to offer you such.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Thank you for your reply. I figured as much, that's why I have never said anything to them. And I did the breeding certificate and all that, had to pay and submit a breeding report for my now gelding. Cost me quite a bit for my little mistake but I handled the papers so they could register it. However, with that being said, I feel I should have at least been offered a stud fee of a couple hundred dollars but then again, my mistake, so I just hope he has a good life and I chalk it up to bad luck, lesson learned.
Thanks again.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Agree with the others, they bought the mare, that means that she and the foal are both their property now. If you want the foal back, have you offered to buy it back at weaning? That's what I would do...after apologizing profusely for selling them a mare that was bred and not _advertised_ as bred.

You have no claim to a stud fee. They did not request the mare get bred, she was bred due to a mistake on your part, simple as that. I would be ****ed if a person sold me a mare that they did not know was bred, then came back and demanded a stud fee for a breeding and foal that I didn't want and didn't ask for....on a mare that I'd already given money for.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

In one sense, they could also have come to you looking for the vet bills involved with the birth. As you said, the horse was not sold pregnant (as far as anyone knew) but actually was. It wasn't something they were expecting but it cost them money that they didn't have to spend.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Foals belong to the mare owner. 

Unless they're willing to sell you this foal you're out of luck, and asking them for a stud fee when she was sold as NOT in foal is tacky and completely unrealistic.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

It wasn't an advertised sell, just two friends, one wanting a good old horse for their kids and the other having one that would be perfect for them. She was 19 and I practically gave her to them. And no, I never offered to buy him because the kids fell in love with the foal. Just was curious.
Thanks.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm baffled by your sense of entitlement. You actually, possibly imposed on them without knowing, and then were going to ask for a stud fee????

It's their horse. How many ppl do you see on here who got a surprise foal after buying a mare?? Should they pay the idot who didnt take necessary precautions? It is your loss. Let it go.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Please note, I have not, nor will I ask for a stud fee. Nor have I asked for the horse back. 
I would apprecaite not being called an idiot. I never claimed to be a professional. So please be respectful. I am trying to be sure I handled this correctly, which it seems I have. 
Thank you all for your replies.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Why don't you offer to buy the foal now? Who knows, maybe they don't want it and will just give it to you.

I agree with the others on the rest of it, I would not have been happy if I'd bought a mare and wasn't told she was pregnant. That's a bunch of vet bills I wasn't expecting, mare out of commission for awhile, another mouth to feed, AND now I have to train a foal if I want it to have any chance at a decent life.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

Technically, you could offer to buy the colt. They may want to sell just because horses are expensive to maintain. If not, there would be no grounds to do anything. Another person mentioned that they could have actually asked for reimbursement for expenses due to the foal, you're very lucky they did not. If these are friends, you could ask if they are in the market to sell him.


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## dirtroadangel (Jan 24, 2012)

Being at the age of 20 plus when she was accidentally bred by the weanling to bad you didn't have her double check ed by the vet to make sure she wasn't preganant.
It must have been quite a surprise to the new owners..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TBlue98 said:


> I feel I should have at least been offered a stud fee of a couple hundred dollars.


_This_ is what made us think you felt entitled to a stud fee. You're not. It's your fault the mare was sold/given away in foal, no matter at which angle we try to see the situation.

Glad you see it the same way, since if I were the mare owner I'd be_ highly_ peeved that I had to pay extra for a foal I never expected.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

if you really want the foal, explain the situation and maybe they would sell him to you. Otherwise, yes you handled it well. Its unfortunate for you that she finally had the foal you wanted, accidentally, after you sold her. Unfortunate for the new owners because of the extra expense, hassel and potential vet bills that could have resulted. If you sold her to someone else farther away, you likely never would have even known.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

acually in many states if they owned the mare at time of breeding even if it was an accident they WOULD owe the stud fee OR the foal back.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> _This_ is what made us think you felt entitled to a stud fee. You're not. It's your fault the mare was sold/given away in foal, no matter at which angle we try to see the situation.
> 
> Glad you see it the same way, since if I were the mare owner I'd be_ highly_ peeved that I had to pay extra for a foal I never expected.


 
I understand and that was wrong of me to say. I'm glad I have never brought it up. Just a little bitter because I know they will never do anything with it and that is what is upsetting to me the most. That's what you get when you have dealings with friends. But, it seems I was lucky that it was a dealing with a friend! Otherwise, they could have asked me for a lot more!
Thanks all.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> acually in many states if they owned the mare at time of breeding even if it was an accident they WOULD owe the stud fee OR the foal back.


 
Really? So all these people with foals on this forum who got mares that they didnt know were bred could possibly have to give their horses' babies BACK to the morons who sold a bred mare in the first place? What states are these??


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

They didn't own the mare at the time of breeding Ghost wind, the OP sold them the mare long after she was bred by their then stud colt. They turned a stud out loose with the mare before they gelded him because they could never get the mare in foal, she sold to friends, the mare ended up pregnant..
OP, you are not entitled to a stud fee, the foal or even training the foal. The foal and mare is theirs not yours. Plus, it kinda sounds a bit to me like maybe, just maybe, you "practically" gave them a 19+year old mare, and you are a tad bit jealous because they got the foal they wanted.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> acually in many states if they owned the mare at time of breeding even if it was an accident they WOULD owe the stud fee OR the foal back.


 
That's what some fellow horse owners are telling me, hence my desire to post my situation and ask many others.
Its just a bad deal and like one person said, it was my fault and I just need to let it go.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TBlue98 said:


> Just a little bitter because I know they will never do anything with it and that is what is upsetting to me the most.


I can understand that completely. To finally see a foal from your beloved older mare, but not have ownership of it has to be frustrating.

They're in love with a cute little baby horse right now. Those feelings may do a complete 180 when they're faced with an ill-mannered, untrained yearling, so I wouldn't give up hope just yet. :wink:


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Doesn't matter if they are friends or not, you sold the mare, they owe you nothing. I would get over the "bitterness" you feel. I don't understand why you said" thats what you get when you have dealings with friends".. What in the world did the friends do that you would make that statement? YOU sold them a pregnant mare they did not know that, nor did you.
Get over your hurt feelings and bitterness. They owe you nothing


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok, how do I delete my post? My question has been answered and it seems this idiot/moron did the right thing and is very lucky to have a decent friend. I've tried to be polite but now I feel I should just delete this post all together.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> actually in many states if they owned the mare at time of breeding even if it was an accident they WOULD owe the stud fee OR the foal back.


Like has been said, the other folks didn't own the mare at the time of breeding. They obtained ownership only a couple of months before she foaled.

As for the "in many states" thing, I can see that....._perhaps_, if it was the _mare_ that got loose and into a position/place where she could be bred.

However, if it was the _stud_ that had gotten loose and bred a mare of mine? They would have more luck squeezing water from a rock than getting a stud fee from me. They would be lucky if I didn't demand every penny of the vet care for the mare/foal and a little extra for feeding the added horse.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

TBlue98 said:


> Ok, how do I delete my post? My question has been answered and it seems this idiot/moron did the right thing and is very lucky to have a decent friend. I've tried to be polite but now I feel I should just delete this post all together.


I have no idea what your first question is referring to. As for deleting the post/thread, there is no reason to. This is a forum and as such, it is open to opinions and replies by people who have different points of view.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

For the sake of friendship, I wouldn't ask anything of them .. however, it never hurts to say "Hey, if you ever want to sell him, I would love first option.." .. and leave it at that..

I'm with SpeedRacer .. when he hits that yearling stage, they'll probably be more than happy to send him down the road..

Good luck.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Wow, some people need to simmer. OP, you did do the right thing. You asked a simple question, and you get this harsh backlash. Like others said, children can get bored with foals after they grow out of that cutesy stage, and you may be able to buy the foal. And whenever selling a horse, even to a friend, ALWAYS have a contract written up. If there had been a clause in there about surprise foalings, maybe this situation could have been avoided altogether.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

Good post Kayella 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

The problem was, the OP came on acting as the injured party and bitter and upset that the mare she sold had a foal... I can understand being upset, but saying things like'that is what you get for dealing with friends" is uncalled for. Her friends did nothing at all, they bought an old mare for the kids and it had a foal. Lucky buyers since the kids seem in love with the foal, for now, and unlucky for the OP .
If she had dealt with anyone other than friends, the new owner of the mare and foal might be taking her to court to recoup financial compensation for having a mare foal, etc. She is lucky to be dealing with friends in this case.
She just learned a very valuable lesson when selling a horse,things happen if vet checks aren't done.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Thank you.
I understand and as I said, I’m not a professional and I made a mistake. I was simply asking how to handle the situation and it seems I did the right thing by taking care of the proper paperwork for them to get it registered. Again, I did not ask for a stud fee nor ask for the foal back. Without not knowing the whole situation, which is hard to explain and to be quite honest there is no need to go into it all. My main concern was how to handle it properly and I apprecaite the replies concerning that. 
I had asked how to delete this because I just don’t feel the need to be chastised for my situation is all. What is done is done, we all make mistakes. However, it is a forum and I put myself out there thinking it would be ok so I will let it go on and maybe others will learn something from it. However, I would appreciate it if the forum would not continue on with bashing and ill judgement towards me.
Thank you.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

TB .. I'm sorry you feel like you have to defend yourself .. 

You didn't do anything wrong. You obviously knew the answer because you already took care of the paperwork, and you hadn't said anything to them.

We confirmed what you already knew, I suspect.

Brush off the rude remarks and move on. I hope you stay around and post, we don't all bite!

Welcome.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

What rude remarks? I would love for just one of you who are throwing out the "attack" flags on the responses OP has gotten to show just one example of an attack, rudness, etc. Not hearing what one wants does not equal an attack.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Hang around, TB. We may give the rough side of our tongue to people sometimes, but I promise we don't bite. Too hard. :wink:

As I stated, don't be surprised when the foal is no a longer a cute and cuddly baby, if he's offered back to you. People like to squee over babies, but once reality hits them in the form of a very big, badly mannered youngster, they're apt to change their tunes.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

And yes, I was a bit bitter and said some things within this forum that I shouldn’t have. I think we all reply quickly without really thinking of what we are saying. Now after reading some of the posts I realized I am at fault and have no right to be bitter. You all answered many questions and I appreciate that. I learned a lot of things that I obviously wasn't aware of concerning my situation. 
We live and learn. My apologies for coming across insincere towards my friend. It seems I'm very lucky that they welcomed in and love their new addition to their family. I couldn’t ask for more for my beloved horse and her new foal.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LetAGrlShowU said:


> Really? So all these people with foals on this forum who got mares that they didnt know were bred could possibly have to give their horses' babies BACK to the morons who sold a bred mare in the first place? What states are these??


Technically? YES. The foal belongs to the owner at time of breeding. If I sold a mare who was in foal known or not the buyer would have to come to an arangement on that foal to get it registered. Most of the time the owner/Seller knows and the whole thing is worked out at time of selling. This is why you see prices for mares and mares with foal. Even if the mare is sold and registration on the mare is changed before she foals you still MUST get the mare owner at time of service to sign all the paperwork for the foal to get the foal registered also as they are still considered the owner of that foal. Some will ask for more money some will not. It comes down to what was worked out when the mare was sold.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Well I was going to jump on here and say "SIMMER PEOPLE SIMMER!" but we seem to slowly be simmering on our own already :wink: 

OP, you did handle the situation well so I won't reiterate what others have already said, and you've been very open and remained polite to all of the remarks made here so I commend you for that. It's certainly an interesting situation, and let us know their reaction to an offer to purchase the foal, like others have said, I think especially once they realize they're not equipped to handle the training, they'll sell him to you. 

Best of luck!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

TBlue98 said:


> That's what some fellow horse owners are telling me, hence my desire to post my situation and ask many others.
> Its just a bad deal and like one person said, it was my fault and I just need to let it go.


 
Im stating this as in a situation of lets say they boarded at your property.. Your colt got their mare pregnant.. you would be able to sue for either your stud fee or the foal back. Of course they could get judgement for increased cost to feed mare and any vet bills because of the pregnancy to be subtracted from that. However since the mare was already bred when you sold/gave the mare to them this type of situation doesnt cover that. I'm not sure what all states this law applies to but I do know Ohio is one of them. Had a friend who boarded her horse... they put a stallion with mares (terrible facility) and the owner of said mare had a foal 11 months later... and was sued for either the stud fee OR the foal back. The boarding facility won the judgement. She gave the foal to them as she didnt want it.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Ghostwind, 

If I were in that situation, I would want all the extra vet fees for the mare and compensation for loss of use of my riding horse for the last two months of the pregnancy and the period of time before the foal was weaned. 

I think there are two different possible scenarios; one for if you buy the mare as a broodmare, another if you buy as a riding or performance horse. It also sounds like there are other facts that led to the judgement that aren't available us. 

I would be reluctant to draw conclusions or offer advice about the OP's situation based on anecdotal information of a case that happened in another state.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I only read the first couple of pages on this thread but I wanted to say a couple things, first, as everyone said, the way it works in the horse world is that the foal belongs to the owner of the mare. That being said, you do not OWE them a breeding certificate, but if the colt is papered and you would like to present the owners with the oppurtunity to register the foal then it would be a nice gesture.

As for them owing you a stud fee, you sold them a horse without disclosing the fact that it was turned out with a stud so I don't think it would be a good idea to even ask for a stud fee, nor do I think it would be fair, especially since these are friends and you run the risk of stressing a relationship.

Also on this note, I actually think it's great that you posted these questions because this thread can be used as a learning tool. One thing that is actually a COMMON mistake that horse owners make is to turn a stud colt out w/ mares or young fillies out with studs or colts thinking they are too young or too old to breed. Surprisingly, it happens quite often so this is a good learning tool for people.

I'm sorry about the situation but I think it's a walk-away. You know?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

TBlue98 I think you asked a great question and I think you did a great job with the responses you received. I hope you continue to participate in this forum because it's actually a great place to hang out. 

I think you handled your situation well. A lot of people would not have offered a breeding certificate or paid any money into it. You could have left them with an unregistered foal but you did a good thing and I commend you. And I do feel for you in this situation.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

maura said:


> Ghostwind,
> 
> If I were in that situation, I would want all the extra vet fees for the mare and compensation for loss of use of my riding horse for the last two months of the pregnancy and the period of time before the foal was weaned.
> 
> ...


 
Of course. I wasnt stating it that it would apply to her case. Just that it has happened. She would never know unless she decided to seek real legal advice from a lawer. In the case of the person not knowing the mare was in foal until the foal was born and/or the last few weeks (when it would be incredibly apparent because of a bag etc. I'm guessing the foal was born without a vets help and most deliveries go OK and a vet is never involved so there may be NO vet fees to subtract from teh foal..


Back to the OPs question/info.. I WOULD require the new owner of the mare pay for the fees you paid to get paperwork for said foal. Usually a stallion report fee plus a late fee for filing...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> Im stating this as in a situation of lets say they boarded at your property.. Your colt got their mare pregnant.. you would be able to sue for either your stud fee or the foal back. Of course they could get judgement for increased cost to feed mare and any vet bills because of the pregnancy to be subtracted from that. However since the mare was already bred when you sold/gave the mare to them this type of situation doesnt cover that. I'm not sure what all states this law applies to but I do know Ohio is one of them. Had a friend who boarded her horse... they put a stallion with mares (terrible facility) and the owner of said mare had a foal 11 months later... and was sued for either the stud fee OR the foal back. The boarding facility won the judgement. She gave the foal to them as she didnt want it.


OP, I would be hoping that your friend doesn't catch wind that they might be able to go against you for the vet bills and "loss of use". You sold them an unbred mare. They had no expectation that they would be liable for vet care and losing the use of this mare. You are actually quite lucky. 

As to ever being able to collect against them. No. YOU are in breech of "contract" (verbal-not bred) not them. Count your blessings that you aren't paying for the foal you don't own.

That said, I would wait until it becomes a rude gangly yearling and offer a small price to take it off their hands.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Not sure what is going on, it not only put my last post I just put on at 3:51pm at the top of my forum, saying it was at 8am, before my first initial post, but it also kicked me out and I had to log back in twice. After tying to get the website to come up which said it was unable to be viewed I must have done something wrong when I tried to reply at the end of my forum. I’m obviously a novice at this and having technical difficulties, so please, bear with me.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

This was a "handshake/friend" type of deal so my old mare could live out the rest of her delicate life in a wonderful place while bringing smiles to my friends little kids. So I didn't feel right asking anything in return, plus, this little foal was a surprise to us all. For sure wouldn’t want to ask them to pay for my stud horse paperwork. That’s kind of what I was referring to when I commented about expecting a stud fee. I guess what I should have said was I would have just appreciated an offer of some sort to help out, simply because I felt I was giving them a good deal. But I see now legally that is wrong so glad I didn't. This is also a little of where my "dealing with friends" comment came from. Sort of like going into business with family or friends, it usually doesn't work out too well sometimes LOL. Always have something in writing. 

I’m not a horse trader nor do I breed and sell horses. But had I known my 19 year old mare was bred I would have never let her go to them until after it was born and we would have made arrangements for me to keep the foal. They know how much she and my now gelding meant to me. But tough luck for me, that is my loss. 

The mare has now passed away unfortunately. Some of what I didn't disclose because I didn’t feel it was relevant to my original post. However, maybe I should have included it and asked, given my situation, would you offer your friend the foal? What I should have asked along with, did I handle the situation correctly from the very beginning is, do I even have any right to a claim him now. But I see now I’m basically grasping at a loss cause and my apologies for not simply stating this first off, but I didn't want to go into all the drama of the situation. 

But since I’ve opened myself up to this I will continue on with the rest of the story. I didn’t include that I took the mare back when it was time for him to be weaned. She was then 20 and he was rearing up on her, being a colt and needing to be weaned. So in her best interest I offered to bring her back home for safe keeping. After all, they never rode her anymore. But I would have let them whenever they wanted to. But she later coliced and I took her to the vet. Her stomach was twisted where the only option was surgery and with her age and the fact that her chances of even surviving the surgery or even recovery, knowing she had lived a long, happy life I called my friend with the bad news and we reluctantly let her go. Given the fact she was my horse since she was 7 and that she was in my care when she coliced I took care of the $400 vet bill. In hind-sight, how were we to know what the future was to hold. We live and learn. I just try to treat others the way I would want to be treated. My initial forum comes now that he is almost 2 years old and they do nothing with him. Is it appropriate to even ask to have him back? I realize I would need to offer to purchase him and not expect they give him to me legally. I understand now that I don’t even have a reasonable argument in the situation. However, they tell me how much of a handful he is. I want to say, welcome to having horses! I’ve offered to take him and work with him but they like seeing him in their pasture and being able to feed and pet him. The perfect life I wanted for my old mare, yet here we are, she is gone and they have her yearling who needs attention they don't know how to give. But, I don’t want to continue to offer more to them unless ultimately I can end up with him now, so I’m not sure how to handle it but at least I know I handled it right from the start. I know it’s basically a lost cause at this point and something I need to move on from. 

After reading all this I feel I did the right thing, and I'm lucky it didn't go bad in the fact they could have came after me for selling them a bred mare after initially only wanting a companion horse. They never would have wanted a foal but when it was with her in the stall that morning they couldn’t have been happier. My issue was first to be sure I handled my responsibilities correctly after it was born. (Hence my reason for even posting on here). My difficulty with it was the principal of the situation. Even with it being a friendly transaction of my old mare that I owned the majority of her life who was bred to my horse when I owned her and a young horse going to waste….Regardless, I realize now it is my loss. 
Bottom line is, no matter if it’s a friend or a stranger and no matter how old or young, always write up an agreement and do a vet check, because you never know.
I would have never imagined she would ever foal. All is well now and there are no hard feelings except they have a handful and I just would like to see it be trained and made into something and they have no desire to do so. After all, he had a great mother, and his sire, the youngster I own that is now a young gelding is the best horse on our place. But, you all have helped me realize that I can't worry about something that is not mine to worry about. And they know if they ever sell him I have first dibbs. Basically I've realized that's all I can hope for.

Sorry for any confusion. My first time at posting in a forum and didn’t feel the need to go into unnecessary aspects when all I wanted to know is how to handle the situation of selling a mare while unknowingly being bred. After all, it’s an embarrassing situation as far as I’m concerned. But thanks everyone for your insight, it has helped me to know I’ve done all I can and just to let it go. Hopefully someone will learn from my mistakes, as I have.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe, if you indicate how much you miss your old mare, and how the baby is the spittin' image of him, they might offer him to you. Especially if his behavior gets so ornery that they don't want him. 
I question how good of friends they are if they did not offer to help with the vet bills for the mare, at all. your taking the mare to your property was temporary, wasn't it? and there was not negligence on your part that caused the colic?

To me, if I were them, I would have offered to split the vet bill. 
Maybe you can find them a good babysitter horse, and offer it in trade for the weanling?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

This was my thought too .. find them a good babysitter horse and offer to trade for him. Yes, you would be putting out more money, but I guess it all depends on how bad you want him ...

It's a tough situation all the way around ...


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## dirtroadangel (Jan 24, 2012)

I feel sorry for the ol' mare I'd be heartbroken if it was with me that long.
Do you have a trainer that could work with you and the 2 yr.old?
Not having done anything with the colt by this family he's probably spoiled.
Good Luck 
They should consider getting some sort of training for the horse before he gets much older. That would be the most important thing to do..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i would not invest any more energy in the colt unless he were mine. They strike me as people who will gladly accept anything you "give" them, but give back little inreturn. Takers. don't get taken.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> maybe, if you indicate how much you miss your old mare, and how the baby is the spittin' image of him, they might offer him to you. Especially if his behavior gets so ornery that they don't want him.
> I question how good of friends they are if they did not offer to help with the vet bills for the mare, at all. your taking the mare to your property was temporary, wasn't it? and there was not negligence on your part that caused the colic?
> 
> To me, if I were them, I would have offered to split the vet bill.
> Maybe you can find them a good babysitter horse, and offer it in trade for the weanling?


 
They know she was special to me but I think they also know how good of a deal they got as well and how well-bred a colt they got out of the deal. 
Me taking the mare was basically because they had no way to separate them until he got older. 
And no, I would not intentionally neglect my horse. I don't know what caused her to colic. From what I understand there are many things that can contribute to colic. I was heartbroken.
I paid the bill because she was always mine as far as I was concerned and it had to be done then and there and she was in my care at the time. The total of the bill came up but was never offered to be paid so I let it go. Personally, I was just glad that I got to be with her in her last moments and got to tell her good-bye. 
I had thought of helping them find another horse but they don't seem interested and have basically lost interest in riding altogether. 
If the time is right and they seem stressed enough not to want to deal with him then I will approach the subject again and offer to purchase him. 
Thanks for the reply.


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## dirtroadangel (Jan 24, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> i would not invest any more energy in the colt unless he were mine. They strike me as people who will gladly accept anything you "give" them, but give back little inreturn. Takers. don't get taken.


Agreed. And don't get suckered into working with the colt in hopes of getting it. They can pay you for that.
Once the colt would get better I'm sure they would fall in love with him all over again... Nothing but heartache...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

dirtroadangel said:


> I feel sorry for the ol' mare I'd be heartbroken if it was with me that long.
> Do you have a trainer that could work with you and the 2 yr.old?
> Not having done anything with the colt by this family he's probably spoiled.
> Good Luck
> ...


 

I totally agree. I mentioned the fact he needs to be worked with to them and they said they know of someone. (Never entertaining the idea of it being me or someone I know). I think because they know I want him and don't want me to have a leg up on him. (No pun intended LOL). However, they are concerned he isn't big enough yet. In my opinion, a horse is never too young or small to work with atleast on the ground. But anyway. Just a bad deal.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

One question OP, did you lease this mare to them or did you sell her, meaning there was a change in ownership on her registration papers? Something seems "off" to me.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

waresbear said:


> One question OP, did you lease this mare to them or did you sell her, meaning there was a change in ownership on her registration papers? Something seems "off" to me.


 
I was going to lease her or just let them keep her and care for her but they offered to buy her from me for a small amount. However, AQHA had her as deceased, they said after so many years horses become inactive or known as deceased, and like I said, she was 19 at the time. So I had to get her papers up to date and prove she was in fact alive in order to help them register the foal. Otherwise, they would have never been interested in her papers, never was from the beginning of the sale. After all, we were under the impression she would never take or could ever become pregnant, not to mention she was in her golden years. They simply wanted a pasture pet. Something they could put their kids on to ride around the farm.
Not sure what you meant as to something seems off, but hope that answers your question.


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## Mike_User (Oct 24, 2006)

waresbear said:


> Something seems "off" to me.


This thread has already gone through it and come out the other side - twice as far as I can tell, as everyone seemed to arrive at an understanding only to have another member choose to harp on a tangential sentence and arguably antagonize the OP for it. 

There is no need for it to happen again with an insinuation that the OP is lying or leaving out key details. TBlue98 has obviously put significant effort into describing the details of this situation despite having no obligation to. If you have a specific question, by all means, ask it, but please keep nonconstructive comments like this to yourself.

You may not care if new members become non-members because of unrelenting, unwelcoming posts, but many of us here do.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

TBlue98 said:


> I was going to lease her or just let them keep her and care for her but they offered to buy her from me for a small amount. However, AQHA had her as deceased, they said after so many years horses become inactive or known as deceased, and like I said, she was 19 at the time. So I had to get her papers up to date and prove she was in fact alive in order to help them register the foal. Otherwise, they would have never been interested in her papers, never was from the beginning of the sale. After all, we were under the impression she would never take or could ever become pregnant, not to mention she was in her golden years. They simply wanted a pasture pet. Something they could put their kids on to ride around the farm.
> Not sure what you meant as to something seems off, but hope that answers your question.


AQHA would not list her as deceased at the age of 19 or, before.

Many of my broodmares were older than that.

Kay's Joy had her last foal at 24. That was the superior performance horse
She Is No Joy.

Some think the old gals are the best producers.

Some place there was a mistake.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Aqha marks horses deceased 25 unless you send proof of life with pictures every year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> Aqha marks horses deceased 25 unless you send proof of life with pictures every year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


25 is fair.

I think Kay lived until 27 but, I retired her after her last foal.

Then she wasn't getting around well, so I put her down.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

Ripper said:


> AQHA would not list her as deceased at the age of 19 or, before.


 
Ok, I guess I need to go find my old, dead mare's registration papers to see exactly how old she was at that time. But in the whole scheme of it, is it really that important and relevant to this forum?? She was OLD! When we went to register the foal, AQHA had her as inactive or whatever you want to call it, we took it as though they had her as deceased because of no activity with her papers. I am not lying, I have nothing to hide. I simply posted on this forum because I wanted to know if others have had an older mare unexpectantly get pregnant by a young stud colt and how they would handle it. Apparently I'm the only idiot that this has ever happened to. But you know what; to heck with what any of you strangers think about me. I'm a good person, I LOVE my animals and I know I do my best for them. 
This is getting ridiculous.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

TBlue98 said:


> Ripper said:
> 
> 
> > AQHA would not list her as deceased at the age of 19 or, before.
> ...


I just saw no need for incorrect information about AQHA to be posted.

Have I had any mare get in foal "accidently"????...no.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Give me a break. Exactly how many points do we want to pick appart in this thread? as far as I can tell the original question has more than been answered, so why don't we all find another thread to pick on?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Ripper, please .....


TB .. you really don't have to defend yourself to anyone. The administrator is right. This insinuation that you are somehow not being truthful is non-constructive and unwelcoming.

Thanks for sharing your story and please stay around and post. There are many many many friendly people on here that are fun to get to know.

Welcome.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

I feel sorry for the OP. Some people need to get off their high horse. Hope they stick around after being insinuated that they are an idiot and a moron. We all learn and none of us are born with the answers. That's why we come here. I thought the questions they asked were legit and after reading the entire story, more legit. 

I hope you get the foal when it becomes a yearling. I'm sure in hindsight you would have changed many things ---------------as *all* of us would.


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## TBlue98 (Apr 24, 2012)

I looked her up for the sake of argument and mainly because I didn't do my homework on an irrelevant issue such as the "exact" age of my old mare when I began this forum. Didn't think it really mattered because the fact is, she was an old mare that we could never get pregnant. She is dead now. The point of her exact age had nothing to do with the question or reason for my post.
But go ahead, rip me a new one and chew this subject to bits within this forum against me. 
But because you must know and mainly to prove I'm no lier, she was a 1984 mare. Yes, far cry from 20, I know, what a moron right. Shoot me for not taking the time to look that up when I began typing. I'm not as perfect as some.
If you need her registration number as proof, I can provide that for you too. Along with many pictures of my beloved horse. But honestly I could care less at this point. I'm thinking if I would have looked it up to get her actual age from the start, I more than likely would have been discriminated for the fact I had such an old mare and accidently let my young stud colt get in with her. After all, that seems to only happen to people like me. I never claimed to be some professional horse breeder from the beginning.

My apologies. I'm a little upset at this point and want to be done with this forum. My question has been answered, the constructive posts were greatly apprecaited. My mare is gone, the foal is gone. But at least I have one good horse, this foals daddy. I've learned many lessons by this forum. 
Thank You.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

TBlue98 said:


> I looked her up for the sake of argument and mainly because I didn't do my homework on an irrelevant issue such as the "exact" age of my old mare when I began this forum. Didn't think it really mattered because the fact is, she was an old mare that we could never get pregnant. She is dead now. The point of her exact age had nothing to do with the question or reason for my post.
> But go ahead, rip me a new one and chew this subject to bits within this forum against me.
> But because you must know and mainly to prove I'm no lier, she was a 1984 mare. Yes, far cry from 20, I know, what a moron right. Shoot me for not taking the time to look that up when I began typing. I'm not as perfect as some.
> If you need her registration number as proof, I can provide that for you too. Along with many pictures of my beloved horse. But honestly I could care less at this point. I'm thinking if I would have looked it up to get her actual age from the start, I more than likely would have been discriminated for the fact I had such an old mare and accidently let my young stud colt get in with her. After all, that seems to only happen to people like me. I never claimed to be some professional horse breeder from the beginning.
> ...


The age did not matter.

I just did not see a reason for incorrect information about AQHA.

I learned sometime too.

I was not sure of the cut off age with AQHA age, I just knew I had mares older than 19.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

TBlue98 said:


> But because you must know and mainly to prove I'm no lier, she was a 1984 mare. Yes, far cry from 20, I know, what a moron right. Shoot me for not taking the time to look that up when I began typing. I'm not as perfect as some.
> If you need her registration number as proof, I can provide that for you too. Along with many pictures of my beloved horse. But honestly I could care less at this point. I'm thinking if I would have looked it up to get her actual age from the start, I more than likely would have been discriminated for the fact I had such an old mare and accidently let my young stud colt get in with her. After all, that seems to only happen to people like me. I never claimed to be some professional horse breeder from the beginning.


Blue, you have nothing to prove to any of us. After all, we are all just people sitting on the other end of a computer keyboard. :wink:


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Ripper said:


> The age did not matter.
> 
> I just did not see a reason for incorrect information about AQHA.
> 
> ...


That should have read, I learned something too.

I just noticed it.


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## Mike_User (Oct 24, 2006)

We don't oblige requests to close or remove threads, but in this case TBlue98's question has been asked and answered more than sufficiently, and any additional discussion about AQHA cut off ages can take place in a new thread about just that.



Ripper said:


> TBlue98 said:
> 
> 
> > Ripper said:
> ...


Sorry, Ripper, but how you could reply to this post of TBlue98's post the way you did, where she is clearly justifiably upset about the way she's been made to feel by certain members in this thread, is appalling.

Generally speaking, if people don't treat their fellow horse keepers in a community decently, whether an online community or in "real life", and have some regard for the way their words make others feel, there eventually won't be a community. The Horse Forum Team will not allow this to happen here. This is not a matter of making it a "rainbows and butterflies" community, but of keeping it a place worth visiting in the first place.

TBlue98, I am truly sorry for your experience in this thread. I sincerely hope that you give the community a chance, because if you do I'm sure you'll find that the great majority of members here are friendly, warm, welcoming people who are interested in helping others and sharing their love for horses. Please know that the Horse Forum Team is standing by, and while every member here gets a chance, those that prove toxic to the environment are ultimately shown the door.


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