# Spinoff: LP's version of "Horse-man-ship."



## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Someone posted a link to this in another thread, and I've seen it posted on other forums as well. Absolutely appalling.

horse-man-**** Video

And, it's not coming from some novice, newbie owner who doesn't have a clue about how to train their backyard horse who is just getting starting in the program. 

_This_ is the "queen bee" of the PNH program who is whacking the horse in the face with both the rope _AND her hands_! Not just once, but repeatedly. 

I don't care if she is taking dressage lessons from WAZ or lessons from any other pro in the industry to improve her riding. . .this has nothing to do with bad riding and everything to do with crappy, irresponsible horsemanship.

Natural? Hardly.

Disgusting.:evil:


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

It's like he's never been taught anything prior to that, and that they didn't even attempt to gain his attention before the lesson. wtfbbq?


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> It's like he's never been taught anything prior to that, and that they didn't even attempt to gain his attention before the lesson. wtfbbq?


But still. . .SMACKING him in the face? Repeatedly? With rope and hand?

Is _that_ the PNH method for getting a horse's attention?

My sympathies to the poor sod of an owner who was so immersed in the Kool-Aid that he just stood by while LP "trained" his horse.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

She was driving him forward by whacking him on the but with the lead and then hauling on his face to get him to STOP going forward - No way would I let her anywhere near my horses. Latte's brain would melt if you tried that on her. What a saint of a horse.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

She apparently wanted him to teleport away from her....she doesn't want him to back away, but he can't turn to walk away either. -sigh-


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Found a quote of Linda:



> _I also want people to know that* it doesn't take talent, it doesn't take bravery and it doesn't take years to get there*. It takes heart, desire and access to a phenomenal teacher who's willing to share everything he knows in a way that is simple to understand because it builds, step-by-step, to as high a level as you want to take it._




Really?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

> _I also want people to know that* it doesn't take talent, it doesn't take bravery and it doesn't take years to get there*. It takes heart, desire and access to a phenomenal teacher who's willing to share everything he knows in a way that is simple to understand because it builds, step-by-step, to as high a level as you want to take it._
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/spinoff-lps-version-horse-man-ship-49299/#ixzz0hAjV0TeT
> ​


Well from that video she is truly proving that point.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow... why are they shaking ropes at the horse and twirling ropes and then waving arms.... ? This does not make sense.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It would appear her hypocrisy knows no bounds. It's all about talking to the horse on his level and NEVER using force, right???? I have had to resort to using tactics similar to that before, but not in that way or that situation. Then again, I am not the self proclaimed Queen of NH either. To me, it's not so much that she is using those tactics, but the way she is using them seems really bass ackwards to me. Plus they are always preaching about never forcing an issue.

I would love to know which of the 7 games that is and how it is supposed to make the horse your _friend_. :?


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

..I prefer the moose guy. :|


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

If I were that horse, I would have a nervous breakdown from not understanding what I was suppose to do and being hit repeatedly. I would than proceed to turn around and kick her so hard she breaks a leg, then run away. Far, far away.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

I see a very pushy horse there that is running over people. 
Her use of NH methods (they all use the same, just with fancy names) is very off. I agree fully that she did not follow through with the correct methods, was way off on her timing, and she lost her patience. 
But,
Ive slapped horses on the cheek before, Because they weren't giving to the lighter pressure I had applied. Ive Yanked horses around to get two eyes as well. Although, I am not a fan of the big snaps under. Whopping him on the butt is to disengage his hindquarters if he wont get his butt out of my way.
Be as light as possible but as much force as necessary.

No, my horses are not head shy. They are not flighty. And they Respect people


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Shame on that horse's owner for watching that non productive bullying and not intervening.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> I see a very pushy horse there that is running over people.
> Her use of NH methods (they all use the same, just with fancy names) is very off. I agree fully that she did not follow through with the correct methods, was way off on her timing, and she lost her patience.
> But,
> Ive slapped horses on the cheek before, Because they weren't giving to the lighter pressure I had applied. Ive Yanked horses around to get two eyes as well. Although, I am not a fan of the big snaps under. Whopping him on the butt is to disengage his hindquarters if he wont get his butt out of my way.
> ...



Really? You see all that? I see a confused horse with not a clue in the world what he should be doing.

That lady is a quack. What was she attempting to accomplish? I must have missed it when I was banging my head on the desk or rolling my eyes. But I didn't miss how cute she looks in the parelli gear, like a nuttier version of linda herself!pompom pony tail on top of her head and everything!hehehe


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Guys... you can't get the whole story of what happened in just that short video.

She slapped that horse on the butt to get it to face her. Im not going to say any more than this because i can see this thread turning into an argument very quickly.. All im going to say is if you had seen before and after that video, you may change your thoughts and views.


Oh and btw.. please don't let my name go ohhh... she's a parelli freak etc.. the old Parelli was a look better before they fell into the trap of money money money.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I won't post too much about this video here because I posted on the other Parelli thread but I think you are being a little too hard on her about this horse. She wasn't whacking the horse with the rope or her hands. She was defining her space and he ran into it. That horse had serious ADD and she needed to be quite aggressive in getting his attention. I don't like much of what I see in the Parelli program but I didn't mind this at all. that horse was not scared and he won't end up head shy. He had never been required to pay attention to any human on the ground and it took him a long time to figure out he needed to give his attention to her. This is not a young horse just starting out if it was I would be right there with the rest of you condeming her but this is a mature horse. Look at the horses expression at the start of the video and look at it at the end. At the end he has his head down and is looking at what Linda is doing and paying some attention to her. In the beginning he didn't pay any more attention to her than if she had been a leaf on the ground. There are several times when she had to step out of his way before he stepped on her. Not everyone would have done it this way but I think in *this *situation *this *horse needed what she did.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

But what was the point of backhanding the horse in the face, with the lead rope and her hand?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If he hadn't been in her space she couldn't have reached him. He was not invited to be that close to her so if he wants to be left alone he had better move out of her space untill she asks him to come in.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I won't post too much about this video here because I posted on the other Parelli thread but I think you are being a little too hard on her about this horse. She wasn't whacking the horse with the rope or her hands. She was defining her space and he ran into it. That horse had serious ADD and she needed to be quite aggressive in getting his attention. I don't like much of what I see in the Parelli program but I didn't mind this at all. that horse was not scared and he won't end up head shy. He had never been required to pay attention to any human on the ground and it took him a long time to figure out he needed to give his attention to her. This is not a young horse just starting out if it was I would be right there with the rest of you condeming her but this is a mature horse. Look at the horses expression at the start of the video and look at it at the end. At the end he has his head down and is looking at what Linda is doing and paying some attention to her. In the beginning he didn't pay any more attention to her than if she had been a leaf on the ground. There are several times when she had to step out of his way before he stepped on her. Not everyone would have done it this way but I think in *this *situation *this *horse needed what she did.


Agree with you 100%

The point of backhanding the horse in the face was to get him out of her SPACE!! He was running over her.


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## ShowjumpingGirl94 (May 2, 2009)

Everyon this video is of a horse that does not respect people spaces and all she was trying to do was getting his attection and asking him to respect her space.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes, but when he offers to give her even the slightest of space, she should allow some release, you see absolutely none in this video, how is he supposed to learn when he is not let known when he is doing what she wants?


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

She does give a 'release' she goes back to phase 1.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I gotta disagree with you on this one, Kevin. I didn't just see disengaging of the hindquarters - I saw driving from the hindquarters, and then when he complied by moving forward, she hauled his face back to her. Hey, i've done the whopping on the *** and the hauling on the face, but generally not together :]

I just didn't like what I saw - To me it seemed contradictory. I don't think she was 'abusive' or anything of that sort - I just don't think it was very productive.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

What we all saw was what the person who pieced that video together wanted us to see, much like a PITA propaganda video. We saw bits and pieces portrayed in a way to make her look like a hypocrite. 

I'm not a fan of the Parelli machine but what is fair is fair and that video was meant to inflame.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I'm not a fan of parelli at all, but I do agree that you must do whatever needs to be done in order to protect your space. I know a horse very similar to this one, I had to use quite a bit of pressure with the horse, but I'm pretty sure I didn't look quite as much like a flying monkey as Linda does. I started simple, not wanting anything to do with the horse, but demanding that my space was mainted. I got in the horses face quite a few times once they came in my space, but once the mare was out, all was quiet.

The people at the barn that I was at were horrified by what I had to do (yes, the same people scared to death of the horse). I simply told them that if everyone was consistent with this horse, it would never get to that point where I had to use that pressure. I never chased, never attacked, never even pushed, simply defended.

Some saw a confused horse, some saw a pushy horse, I saw an insecure horse that was terrified in his own skin because he had no solid herd stucture or consistent leadership through a person. Did he lack respect for people? Yes, but I'm guessing that no one ever gave him a reason to respect them.

I can't stand the Parelli program, but I wouldn't hold this video against them, I've seen more abusive videos just through their crappy riding! She definately lacked timing, grace, and calmness, but I've been around enough horses like that to understand that if you aren't standing up for yourself, you will get hurt. As far as the owner in the background, it was probably their fault that the horse got like that in the first place.

This video was meant to inflame, I know through experience that to work with extreme aggressive/invasive horses, it can't always be butterflies and roses. I would expect better timing out of a professional, but the track she was on wouldn't put me in an uproar.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Yes, but when he offers to give her even the slightest of space, she should allow some release, you see absolutely none in this video, how is he supposed to learn when he is not let known when he is doing what she wants?


Exactly - her timing sucks. 

There is no reward when he does the right thing, and she is giving the horse no clues about exactly what she wants him to be doing. 

He stands still, she whacks him. He steps back, she whacks him. He moves away, she whacks him. He steps toward her, she whacks him. There is no release, there is no reward. At several points, she is the aggressor rather than "protecting her space." 

It's bad enough LP is doing this, but this is the material they are marketing as a training program that _anyone_ can do. 

Truly pathetic.


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## snazzydandy (Jan 7, 2010)

My opinion- the lady in the video is an idiot and the guy letting her touch his horse isn't much better.. I would not let her on my property let alone near one of my horses.. just my opinion..


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I watched Buck Brannaman deal with a horse almost exactly like this one. Huge difference: first, _he never took a backward step_. Also, when he jerked the rope, there wasn't any "echo"-like bump or wave-- I guess that's why they called him a good rope man? Also, after the initial out-of-my-space lessons (about 3 times) he concentrated on _pushing the horse away_ from him, using the rope to sting. His timing was on-the-dot. It wasn't always so pleasant to watch, but certainly he never lost the horse's attention. I think LP knows what she wants, but she's just not there yet.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is she turned her back to the horse several times. To me that means that you want the horse to come to you. That is what it would mean in the wild. At one point her back was to the horse she had her arms up and the horse was just following her. She just kept doing it.

Then she asked the horse to move away by slapping at the horses face. When the horse moved its face away she yanked on the rope. 

Just seems off to me. Would be interesting to see the entire video to see exactly what the horse was doing before she grabbed the rope.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree I would love to see the entire video and be able to see"AHH, now I see what she was doing", but I know that is not going to be the way it happens. I have watched LP many a time on RFD giving "lessons" 95% of them are contradictory and the horse and owner end up following her directions in a confused and unhappy manner while she sits on a fence in her cute little PP outfit and barks orders.... Most of them I just sit there and watch with my eyebrows raised wondering what the heck she is talking about and what she is trying to accomplish.

I am not being unfair. IMO, from what I have seen of her this is an accurate portrayal of her work attitude and skill with horses. Riding on Pats coat tails indeed.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

that lady doesnt have a 'natural horsemanship bone' in her body. im impressed, i see what shes trying to do, and i have watched many MANY kids handle that better then she did. its just amazing.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> He was running over her.


Oh good grief. This is not a horse 'running all over someone'. Not even close. At no time does he even take an aggressive posture. Doing 'this' to an aggressive horse will land you the hospital.

He simply does not want to be 'there', and I don't blame him for it. She gives him no reason to trust or respect her as a leader. She's yanking on his head over and over again to get his attention, then when he gives it to her, she tells him to **** off.

Does anyone who's in agreement with this even have a clue how easy it is to jam a horse's poll yanking on their head like that?

Then she starts smacking his haunches the whole time she's turned her back on him...umm...and we wonder why he's come into her back...well, that would be because she invited him there.

I wonder at what point in time this becomes a 'game'?

I don't care who edited the video, or for what purpose. These segments clearly demonstrate ignorance, and someone trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill because they are a control freak.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Oh good grief. This is not a horse 'running all over someone'. Not even close. .


Used the wrong words, new someone would bring that up... what i meant was .....the horse was running *INTO* her....


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Because he is obviously overstimulated and confused. She is not asking him to clam down or pay attention, she is making the problem worse by jerking him around and forcing him to keep moving. I bet if he were to be let stand, he would look around a few minutes, gather his bearings and focus on her and what she wants him to do.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> Used the wrong words, new someone would bring that up... what i meant was .....the horse was running *INTO* her....


A change of word doesn't make a difference. Into, over...he's not running any where. Even when he starts getting frustrated with her and snorty, he never once takes an aggressive stand with her. Not once. All he's thinking about is, "How the h e double hockey sticks do I get outta here?!" But even then, he's too well-mannered and tempered to actually just leave. 

An aggressive horse would actually have literally run her over on his way out of the grounds at full speed, right after he tried to take that rope and her arm off with a hoof.

She invites him into her space every time she yanks on him, and every time she turns her back on him.

The first mistake here is trying to get his attention and 'train' him when he's overwhelmed with his environment. 

The second mistake is losing her temper...and then the third is thinking she was going to manhandle him. If you want to do that, you better understand positions of dominance and strength, as well, leverage. None of which she has, or seems to grasp in this situation.

It's overkill. The horse isn't doing anything in this video to get excited about. Put a bridle/longeing cavesson on him, and take him for a longeing walk around the grounds. Reinforce all the aids he learned at home, and give him a chance to settle in, and in ten minutes he'll be ready to work under saddle, or he won't, and then he'll have had a pleasant outing where he got to see the world w/o losing his marbles or being ridiculously handled.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Because he is obviously overstimulated and confused. She is not asking him to clam down or pay attention, she is making the problem worse by jerking him around and forcing him to keep moving. I bet if he were to be let stand, he would look around a few minutes, gather his bearings and focus on her and what she wants him to do.



I can see what your saying but don't you think that next time she tried to teach him to back up you'd go through the same ordeal, if not worse because he learn't the first time that if he kept 'spacking' out, and 'running into her' he'd be left alone to stand still.

Just my opinion. 


And also if everyone had of seen the WHOLE video.. not just what people wanted you to see, to have the same opinion as them, you'd see that the owner wanted Linda's help and was pleased with the END... result which was not shown in the video.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

WOW. JUST WOW. I have never seen a Parelli person be THIS appalling. My mouth was literally open when I watched her yank that horse around for no reason.

I didn't even see that he was trying to come into her space. He didn't know how to longe! Don't take it out on the horse because you can't stay to his hindquarters and get him moving! 

UGHUGHUGH!

And how could anyone stand by and just watch someone who is supposed to be a professional do that to their horse? The horse is confused and utterly frustrated. Poor chap.

*off my soapbox*


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> And also if everyone had of seen the WHOLE video.. not just what people wanted you to see, to have the same opinion as them, you'd see that the owner wanted Linda's help and was pleased with the END... result which was not shown in the video.


Irrelevant.

Whether we see the whole video or not, or the owner was happy in the end, does not change what happened in this 4+minutes of video. 

Even if the horse was able to figure out what she wanted in the end, that doesn't make her a good trainer...if anything it makes the horse generous.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Mercedes, I'm with you on this one. The horse was completely overstimulated and likely has never been taught the CORRECT way to respond.
Anyways, my responses have all been on the other thread 

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again.... I'd hate to be the one to have to correct this horse after the Parelli people got through with him. You'd likely have to deal with a headshy, jumpy, spooky horse that has no idea what to do around humans... or horses.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> A change of word doesn't make a difference. Into, over...he's not running any where.
> 
> She invites him into her space every time she yanks on him, and every time she turns her back on him.
> 
> Put a bridle/longeing cavesson on him, and take him for a longeing walk around the grounds.


Firstly.. OK, i get what you saying! RUNNING ETC.... He's 'moving into her'.. Better now??

How so does she invite him into her space??? She's trying to get him to face her, not come into her space.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Ditto. You guys are much more eloquent than me :]


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I never said to let him alone AFTER he was spazzed out. I meant that she should have let him get his head BEFORE she asked anything of him. If you watch Julie Goodnight or CA or really even PP himself, if the horse is overstimulated and unresponsive they give him a few seconds at the end of the line to look around and calm down, it is common sense.

I am sorry but I strongly disagree that seeing the whole video would have helped anything because it is her reacting to the horse instead of acting to calm him down and allow him to get his head. She is trying to work for complete control with a young hot overstimulated horse. Sure the owner might have had trouble with him before she got her hands on him, but I guarantee nothing changed when she was done either. The whole time she has absolutely zero control and it spins quickly out of control even more when she starts jerking him around and changing what she is asking. 

She was trying to teach him to back up? Where? All I was was her flailing at him, disengaging his hindquarters over and over and over and getting into HIS space and pushing him around. I saw her requesting he leave her space and when he obliges she jerks his head around...

I see a petite inexperienced woman with a big hot youngster who is overstimulated and confused and the woman is trying to bully him into doing whatever it is that she is very unclear about wanting. 

Just my opinion.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> Whether we see the whole video or not, or the owner was happy in the end, does not change what happened in this 4+minutes of video.


Didn't you see where the video was merged?? It's not all one big 4 minute flogging... There was a lot of 'reassuring' and 'retreating' breaks in between the 'abuse'.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I saw a continuous video...Maybe you could post the whole thing so we can see it for ourselves and not take your word on it? That might help your case a bit.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

brookelovesparelli said:


> Firstly.. OK, i get what you saying! RUNNING ETC.... He's 'moving into her'.. Better now??
> 
> How so does she invite him into her space??? She's trying to get him to face her, not come into her space.


I think Mercedes is talking about when she's trying to get him to yield his hindquarter. He's not running her over, or into her.... he's being 'invited' in by her turned back, and yet she still gets after him - he hasn't a clue what she wanted.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with Mercedes on this one. The end product is irrelevant. you can say the same thing about the horses that Anky trains with Rollkur. It is NO excuse for what goes on in the training process.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It's definately been edited. You should watch it again.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I think I only saw one spot where it was cut - Toward the end, between the stressed out horse and the one dropping his head? And I would say that cut makes our point stronger - It shows that the end result may not have been accomplished because of the 'training' we saw in the first part. Maybe she stepped back, relaxed, and then got some results? We'll never know unless someone posts the original - And we can only judge on what we see, not what ifs.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

ok, nvm, now I see the editing.... Doesn't change my opinion though. I love at the end of the video she warps him on the cheek a few good times after she says "good Boy" hehehe, nice popping sound.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> I never said to let him alone AFTER he was spazzed out. I meant that she should have let him get his head BEFORE she asked anything of him.
> 
> Sure the owner might have had trouble with him before she got her hands on him, but I guarantee nothing changed when she was done either.
> 
> ...


Oh ok I get you know. With the frame of mind thing... And yes she probably should have. Although.. (please don't think im making excuses) But the owner started with the horse, trying to get the horse to do the 'yo yo' game. He was already that 'fizzed' up when Linda got to him so she couldn't have.

You guarantee nothing changed ??..... How can you when you haven't seen the end result??

How do you know the horse is young??

She may have been unclear about what she wanted but, she was frustrated, and im sure, any horse person in the world will have got frustrated and overwhelmed especially when on camera. Im fairly sure she would have been more relaxed etc. if she wasn't being filmed.

Although she was unclear etc.. I have used and do use Parelli.. (with a grain of salt, as you have to do with all horse things/people)

But in saying that... everyone does... YES it is just common sence to use phases, but it's not common sence to a 10 year old. Went the first get there own horse.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> Didn't you see where the video was merged?? It's not all one big 4 minute flogging... There was a lot of 'reassuring' and 'retreating' breaks in between the 'abuse'.


First, I've never used the words flogging or abuse. You did. But now that you've used them, do you think that the flogging and abuse should be ignored simply because there was some reassuring and retreating breaks between them?

It is irrelevant what happened 'between' the used portions of the video. What's happening in the shown portions is overkill. It shows a person over-reacting. Frankly, I think she's uncomfortable and a bit afraid of this horse.

Here's something about horse behavior that maybe some don't know. When a horse becomes over-stimulated, upset...pick your word, their equine instinct kicks in. The normal response is for the horse to 'go to the herd'. Safety in numbers and all that. So, it's actually normal behavior for this horse to want to be close to its herd. You'll actually see horses bang into each other to get as close to each other as they can.

Now obviously we don't want our horses to do that because they are bigger than us and can hurt us, so we train them to override that instinct and replace it with another behavior. That could be stopping in their tracks, putting their head down, whatever. But there is still always the chance, particularly with green horses, or new partnerships with horses, for that natural instinct to take over. How you react, says much about you as a skilled horseman.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Mercedes, I want to give you a big hug! You rock, seriously. Great posts! *applauds*


I've been told that the horse in the video is actually missing one eye.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I think I only saw one spot where it was cut - Toward the end, between the stressed out horse and the one dropping his head? And I would say that cut makes our point stronger - It shows that the end result may not have been accomplished because of the 'training' we saw in the first part. Maybe she stepped back, relaxed, and then got some results? We'll never know unless someone posts the original - And we can only judge on what we see, not what ifs.


Yeah, I agree... and never once did I mean that the end result got to do with her being harsh etc. But she did get the result in the end, and whether it was in a way I/you/anyone would have done it, she still did get the result in the end.



Mercedes said:


> First, I've never used the words flogging or abuse. You did. But now that you've used them, do you think that the flogging and abuse should be ignored simply because there was some reassuring and retreating breaks between them?
> 
> How you react, says much about you as a skilled horseman.



I called it 'flogging' or 'abuse' like sarcastically (but everything's very black and white on paper, well on the net) 

I don't think it can be called 'flogging' or 'abuse' because of the breaks. IMO.


And I would put up the DVD.. but yep im making excuses.. it goes for about a hour and I don't have a disk drive on my computer.

But we all have different opinions, so lets just take our own training methods that work for us as an individual with our horse/s. :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

IMHO The end never justifies the means. Abuse is abuse and flogging is flogging (Not saying the video is either) no matter what the end result or wether there are breaks or not. It doesn't change the fact. Plenty of trainers out there use abusive techniques and end up winning in the ring - Does that mean I think it's ok? Heck no!

Eh. I just know if anyone treated one of my horses like that I would tell them to get off my property and never come back, please.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> IMHO The end never justifies the means. Abuse is abuse and flogging is flogging (Not saying the video is either) no matter what the end result or wether there are breaks or not. It doesn't change the fact. Plenty of trainers out there use abusive techniques and end up winning in the ring - Does that mean I think it's ok? Heck no!
> 
> Eh. I just know if anyone treated one of my horses like that I would tell them to get off my property and never come back, please.



I Agree! I just wanted to point out to everyone that although it wasn't in a way... I/you/or others on the forum would have dealt with the situation she did get the result in the end.. but I totally agree with you.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

brookelovesparelli said:


> I Agree! I just wanted to point out to everyone that although it wasn't in a way... I/you/or others on the forum would have dealt with the situation she did get the result in the end.. but I totally agree with you.


I guess our point is that while she may have gotten a result.. kind of (to me he still looked confused) it *doesn't* justify what she did to get those results.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You make excuses for the trainer because she was getting frustrated? Really?

She's not much of a trainer if she allows frustration to even enter the equation. A good trainer stays cool as ice and simply remains persistent in her approach to such a horse. The persistence in asking until the horse tries something more like what you are wanting. Then you guide him toward that goal using praise. 

Frustration is a counterproductive dead end and will block you from achieving anything positive.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> .. it goes for about a hour and I don't have a disk drive on my computer.


An hour? :-(


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> An hour? :-(


 Poor guy.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

This was appalling!! I actually had to stop the video halfway because I couldn't watch the rest. That puts Natural Horse Man Ship to shame. I think I'm in the same boat as the horse in trying to understand what she wanted to achieve. I'm ashamed that she is considered the top of Natural Horsemanship.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Paralli game number eight: Confuse-a-horse


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

No not an hour with the horse being there.. but it's like in a class room in bits, talking to students etc.. The like switch around from being out in the 'field' to being in the classroom.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

That makes no sense...confusing and more excuses...


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Maybe people get confused to easily these days??

The DVD isn't just about that horse is what im trying to say... that's why it goes for an hour.

Makes sence now??


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

OH, I will clarify then so it does make senSe.

_The entire video is not about the horse in question and his "training" session with LP, it has other content such as a classroom type learning situation for people and ect._, It goes back and forth using examples of horses being worked and then classroom discussion

or something like that anyway...


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> OH, I will clarify then so it does make senSe.
> 
> _The entire video is not about the horse in question and his "training" session with LP, it has other content such as a classroom type learning situation for people and ect._, It goes back and forth using examples of horses being worked and then classroom discussion
> 
> or something like that anyway...


Great, thanks for putting it that way, that's exactly what I meant.. Sorry guy's I can't construct a paragraph well, in an easy to understand way. 

SoRry fOr mY speLLing miStaKe tOo. Oops...


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Lol, no problem, just had me a bit cross eyed trying to decypher it.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

brookelovesparelli said:


> The DVD isn't just about that horse is what im trying to say... that's why it goes for an hour.
> 
> Makes sence now??


Why even mention the rest of the video then when it doesn't pertain to the horse in question? It's irrelevant.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> Paralli game number eight: Confuse-a-horse


OMG!!! That is just too funny. :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> Paralli game number eight: Confuse-a-horse


Oh I thought game number 6 was confuse a horse?? Or was it game 4. Maybe game 5??? Oh well as long as one of the games is confuse a horse that should be enough.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Here's the breakdown about what's wrong... this was posted on another board: 



> by 19 seconds in:
> From what I see first - she wasn't handling the horse. If the "wiggling" is considered a good training method, when she took the horse, she should have ASKED first. Instead, she just immediately started bumping and never even asked the horse to do anything. Also, he looked confused, like he thought he was supposed to start lunging.
> 
> I'm curious as to how the "BUMP" is supposed to teach them to back and wouldn't it be counterproductive, if you want to teach a horse to GIVE to pressure?
> ...





> I see violent jerking his head around, which makes him move towards her. How can he figure out, that she wants him to back up, if she continuesly jerks his head towards her.
> I watched the video more than once, never do I see any clear requests, she never gives him the chance to figure it out, she never lets him relax, she never releases.
> I am learning, taking lessons and we are doing ground work etc. I was taught, you ask the horse by voice, by walking towards him, by slightly wiggeling the lead rope. As soon as the horse even twitches a muscle towards moving backwards, you release.
> I was wondering how long it would take the horse to rear and strike at her for confusing him.
> Instead of her remaining calm, she seems to get more and more upset and excited (the feeling I get from the video is pure frenzy), how is the horse supposed to react, stay calm, and learn?


Linda was MAD. There is no place for anger when dealing with horses. Even if this video was cut from 10+ minutes, it doesn't nullify what was IN the video. There was one break - so let's say there were two 2+ minute segments - those two segments still showed all of this ^ happening. Not good.


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

First off, this is one of the worst spots I have ever seen to try and get a horse's attention...there were horses all over, it was an unfamiliar area, etc. This horse is hot and anxious and really should have been thrown in a round pen and lounged a bit until his attention was on the handler then she needed to start working on ground work. The horse just wasn't experienced enough to be put in that situation. 

I understand what Linda was trying to do, but that was really unpleasant to watch and she didn't accomplish much(at least from what I saw in that short video). She went about it all wrong and should have tried something else after it wasn't working, but she had to follow through or she would have looked like an idiot and the poor horse would have been even more confused. I don't like the Parellis at all, they confuse people, confuse horses, and don't follow through with their own "games" and techniques.

And I wouldn't blame that horses owner. Unfortunately they were probably unexperienced and were told the Parellis are the best trainers ever, etc. I don't think they really knew better or had any idea what they were doing. Probably why they took their horse to them and why that horse was all over the place.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

I completely, 110% agree with everything Mercedes has said.

And like JDI just said, Linda was ANGRY. The first thing I got from watching this awful video was "wow, way to take your anger out on the horse"

For what it's worth, it was said on another forum that this horse is blind in one eye. I don't care if anyone disagrees with this, but OBVIOUSLY a one eyed horse is going to look around more and they will need much more patience than a horse that can see normally. But of course, I'm not positive if this horse truly only has one eye. 

I don't know what she was trying to accomplish but all I saw was an extremely confused horse. Does anyone know if this horse was really green? I mean...no green horse I've ever seen would be so well behaved (yes, I think that horse was EXTREMELY well behaved for dealing with Linda's miscommunication and confusing cues the way it did) for all that which was done to him in that video. This horse was clearly not aggressive, Linda would probably be dead if he was.


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, completely agree about her taking her frustration and anger out on the horse. If that horse is actually blind in one eye then he's got good reason for being more nervous than a normal horse.


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

that was appaling. she shouldnt be aloud to work with horses with that training method


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

If you look carefully when the left side of the horse's head is a visible you can see the hollow where the eye should be. There were several occasions where I thought the horse was going to rear and a couple where I thought if it did it would come down on her head. I feel sorry for the poor thing because if I can't work out what she's trying to do what chance does a horse have? I would never let this woman near a horse of mine.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Linda was MAD. There is no place for anger when dealing with horses. Even if this video was cut from 10+ minutes, it doesn't nullify what was IN the video. There was one break - so let's say there were two 2+ minute segments - those two segments still showed all of this ^ happening. Not good.


 
And no wonder she couldn't handle her "dressage" horse before she met PP, she has no temper control.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> *Linda was MAD. There is no place for anger when dealing with horses.* Even if this video was cut from 10+ minutes, it doesn't nullify what was IN the video. There was one break - so let's say there were two 2+ minute segments - those two segments still showed all of this ^ happening. Not good.


Exactly. And that's why I disliked the video so much. Because she was very angry - it's obvious from even how she moves. That's the biggest no-no for any trainer.

I've seen CA dealing with the similar issue and while he used a stick he was as calm as it could be. Same about Kenny Harlow, Buck Bachmann (spell? never remember correct spelling  ), Cris Cox, and some other people I've seen in videos and in person. Honestly, I didn't expect something like that from Parelli. At least when you know you can show up all over the Internet with this "demonstration".


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

I'd hate to see how she would have handled this if that camera was off.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I watched the video yet again. Here's what I now saw;

All my horses are taught to *walk at my side*, like "heeling". Not walk away and face me, at my SIDE!!

I see a horse desperately trying to get to her side as he was, probably, taught. All her flailing is scaring it making it want to go to her side all the more. I do not see a horse invading her space. Just trying to do as he has been taught and being punished for it. 

How much training is she undoing. Shame on the owner. I suspect his reluctance to leave the horse with her has relevance.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

That woman would not be allowed to sweep my tack room!

Disgusting!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I think the thing that makes me cringe at this video the most is she thinks she KNOWS it ALL, theres people that dont know anything about groundwork, and want to learn it all, and then theres the people like her, that know nothing,then pretend to know it all. those people that know it all really bug me


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Here's the reply from the Parelli group to the letter I posted earlier (again, this is taken from a member from another board:



> Hello 4Horses,
> 
> We appreciate your message regarding the video of Linda. It is unfortunate this video has posted out of context as it clearly undermines Parelli's goal.
> 
> ...


Out of the entire letter, the word I bolded bugs me the most. Calm. I did not see a calm horse. I saw a frantic horse, a fearful horse... anything BUT calm.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Starting at about the 3 minute mark that horse is visibly much calmer than he was at the begining. The horse is paying much closer attention to where linda is at the end than he was at the beginning. That horse at the beginning was going to walk where he needed to walk and he was pretty confident that everybody would just move out of his way. At the end of the video he had figured out that he had better move when she moved and pay some attention to what the person on the end of the rope was doing or he would get pretty uncomfortable. I'm not going to argue any more about this but I am disapointed that nobody can see what a hazard this horse was and how much better he was at the end of the video. If you don't like the way she did it then fine use a different way but she didn't hurt that horse and probably prevented him from hurting anyone else with his bad manners. If it was anybody but a Parreli there would not be 9 pages of nasty comments about the handling of this horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Here's the reply from the Parelli group to the letter I posted earlier (again, this is taken from a member from another board:
> 
> 
> Out of the entire letter, the word I bolded bugs me the most. Calm. I did not see a calm horse. I saw a frantic horse, a fearful horse... anything BUT calm.


That was a good response. Ha-ha! I think Pat and Linda should request "no videotaping/no recording/no pictures" from the spectators (like at the big shows or in movie theaters). :lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> If it was anybody but a Parreli there would not be 9 pages of nasty comments about the handling of this horse.


Kevin, I'd repeat what I think about the video if it would be any other _*trainer*_. My opinion is absolutely irrelevant to the fact it was Parelli.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Here's the reply from the Parelli group to the letter I posted earlier (again, this is taken from a member from another board:
> 
> 
> Out of the entire letter, the word I bolded bugs me the most. Calm. I did not see a calm horse. I saw a frantic horse, a fearful horse... anything BUT calm.


I had to stop reading and get my muck boots on. Then I finished. What they the post said is not what I saw. I did not see a dangerous horse. I saw like you said a scared horse.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> Starting at about the 3 minute mark that horse is visibly much calmer than he was at the begining. The horse is paying much closer attention to where linda is at the end than he was at the beginning. That horse at the beginning was going to walk where he needed to walk and he was pretty confident that everybody would just move out of his way. At the end of the video he had figured out that he had better move when she moved and pay some attention to what the person on the end of the rope was doing or he would get pretty uncomfortable. I'm not going to argue any more about this but I am disapointed that nobody can see what a hazard this horse was and how much better he was at the end of the video. If you don't like the way she did it then fine use a different way but she didn't hurt that horse and probably prevented him from hurting anyone else with his bad manners. If it was anybody but a Parreli there would not be 9 pages of nasty comments about the handling of this horse.


I strongly disagree with you about this. Please read my earlier responses, and you'll see why. 
I really have no clue how anyone can defend the actions in this video. Then again, I guess people still send their horses to Cleve Wells too...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

kevinshorses - WRONG.

I scanned this thread quickly and clicked on the video - I was absolutely disgusted with what I saw. My first thought? Some Parelli following idiot who doesn't have a clue. Why? I HAD NO IDEA IT WAS LINDA. As soon as I scanned the comments, I quickly jumped back to this thread and my jaw DROPPED. I had ZERO clue this was actually THE Linda Parelli working this horse. 

I hate Parelli, and I was almost ready to call someone a liar. I don't respect the woman or her bull**** preaching, but I never in my life thought THIS was what it was about.

I don't care who you are, that was the most disgusting display of "training" I've ever seen. The fact that this woman is supposed to be a professional is appalling. There was nothing dangerous about that situation, and quite frankly, I would MUCH rather see someone "rip into" a horse then bull**** around like that for an hour, confusing the hell out of the animal and acting like a bloody idiot.

Maybe this crap works on a horse who's already endured a half dozen years of the Parelli cult, but it's just confusing, annoying, frustrating and even MORE dangerous to be pulling this **** on a horse that thinks you're insane.

This woman would have been in SERIOUS danger if this animal had even the slightest mean bone in it's body. My Arab mare would have PULVERIZED her if she tried this crap.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I am disapointed that nobody can see what a hazard this horse was



Holey cow. Hazard? Really? I've seen ten year olds that could handle a horse this hazardous and not send it into a frenzy. 

This horse was not being aggressive at all, IMO. He was confused and upset. We do not know what was done with this horse prior to the start of the video. It was in progress when it started. I suspect it started much smaller and was escalated by the treatment he was given. He screamed of confusion and fear....not an aggressive intentional misbehavior.

Are people really so easily scared? Maybe that is why I like working with rank horses. We "understand" each other. LOL! We certainly don't (usually) scare each other.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

We'll just have to agree to disagree then because while I think it could have been done better I don't think it is as bad as everyone else seems to think. That horse most certainly was a hazard to be around. I don't think he was mean but he would have hurt you just the same. I also don't think most horses would have needed this type of treatment. I have one horse that is very soft and sensitive and has been his entire life. He would never need nor would he tolerate rough treatment. My father in law has a paint gelding that tends to be more like the horse in the video. He has an attention span about 5 seconds long and he can worry about everything but what you are doing with him unless you give him some insentive to pay attention. Every spring I tune him up so that he is decent to handle and he doesn't turn into a horse like lthe one in the video. If I just let my FIL handle him within 3 years he would be leading people in circles and dragging them all over. He's just the kind of horse that likes to take charge if he thinks he can. He is about as sensitive as a block of wood so it takes some doing to get him to feel me at the end of the rope. 

I would like to see Linda standing up straighter and facing the horse more and worrying less about whipping him with the lead rope but she isn't doing everything wrong. 

As I said before we can just agree to disagree.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Holey cow. Hazard? Really? I've seen ten year olds that could handle a horse this hazardous and not send it into a frenzy.
> 
> This horse was not being aggressive at all, IMO.


I said he was hazardous not aggressive. He's probably a nice kind horse but when a nice kind horse knocks you down and steps on you it hurts just the same. He probably is the first one to the gate but if something were to spook him he wouldn't think twice about going right over the top of you. He might miss you a great deal while you're recovering but it would still hurt. I wouldn't be afraid to handle him a bit because it wouldn't take too long before that behavior stopped but you can bet that I would keep an eye on him until it did.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I said he was hazardous not aggressive. He's probably a nice kind horse but when a nice kind horse knocks you down and steps on you it hurts just the same. He probably is the first one to the gate but if something were to spook him he wouldn't think twice about going right over the top of you. He might miss you a great deal while you're recovering but it would still hurt. I wouldn't be afraid to handle him a bit because it wouldn't take too long before that behavior stopped but you can bet that I would keep an eye on him until it did.



Would you agree the horse was being fearful?

If so, do you think hitting a horse and sending such painful and confusing messages would really help the matter?

I agree the horse is in a bad state, here. I think *they* escalated it to the point where the horse was beyond training. I would have stopped and let him settle, then gone on to try to correct what must have happened to start this mess. 

We were not given a clue as to what really started this as the corrections were already in progress when the video started. I heard that the "session" was quite long. There was a definite edit before we saw the "improved" horse. Who knows what happened in the missing moments.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

All this helps establish is that natural horsemanship IS a farce because she's just proven that not all horses will react well to it which is the entire arguement. I don't care what she does in between, she spends the better part of the video using physical force to scare the horse out of his wits and regardless the outcome of the video, has not used "natural horsemanship" whatsoever.

And if I'm wrong and this actually IS what "natural horsemanship" is, I swear to god I'ma throw a frying pan at the next ignorant little twit who DARES tell me that smacking my horse on the nose for biting is ABUSIVE. I've encountered TONS of horses who react like this one in bad situations (ignoring handler, screaming for friends, not respecting space) and I have NEVER had to use as much physical discipline as she saw fit. Get the animal lunging, disengage his hindquarters a ton, get him focusing on you from a distance, and the end result is the same and I've managed to do it without whipping his hindquarters, smacking him in the chest, or whacking him in the face. :roll:

Nobody is disputing the method she used, what we are disputing is the fact that she claims natural horsemanship works for everyone, when it very clearly DOES NOT. I also find it blatantly obvious that this woman has spent so much of her life believeing her own lies, she doesn't even know how to conduct herself anymore when she needs to get physical with a horse. She is sending him mixed signals all the time.

Somebody commented on a Buck video of essentially the same thing but with lightning fast response. THAT is the issue here - this method COULD have worked fine if she wasn't such so arrogant and just admitted she doesn't have a clue what she's doing without her precious carrot stick and a horse that won't obey her traditional commands.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

People have complained about the video not showing the whole story. . .well, there is a video on YouTube showing the owner of the horse working with it before Linda took over, and I didn't see anything in that video about the horse being "dangerous."

What I did see was LP saying "good whack!" every time the owner wiggled the rope hard enough for the metal clip to smack the horse in the side of the head.

There certainly was an animal in that video that deserved to be whacked upside the head with a metal clip. . .but it wasn't the horse. . .


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Would you agree the horse was being fearful?


What a strange turn this thread has taken that I am defending a Parelli. I would say that the horse was at times looking for a release but if he had been really fearful he wouldn't have been taking his eyes off of her. When my horses are afraid of anything they give it their full attention and this horse could barely keep his eyes on her for 5 seconds at the beginning of the video. Also horses generally have no problem moving their hindquarters away from anything that scares them.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

Pat and Linda have an excuse for everything. >.>
I would like to throttle that woman.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> What a strange turn this thread has taken that I am defending a Parelli. I would say that the horse was at times looking for a release but if he had been really fearful he wouldn't have been taking his eyes off of her. When my horses are afraid of anything they give it their full attention and this horse could barely keep his eyes on her for 5 seconds at the beginning of the video. Also horses generally have no problem moving their hindquarters away from anything that scares them.


The horse has one eye. He has to hold his head to the side to use the good eye to watch. In my experience, a scared one eyed horse will hold there head a lot to the side to have that eye "square" to the object of interest.

Never think that a one eyed horse will act exactly like a normal horse in terms of head carriage.

I saw that horse looking for a place to get away to. Yes, at times he was looking off, but I think a horse should be able to see and deal with scary situations before being asked to pay 100% attention anywhere. 

WE look all around when we are feeling under threat. It is only natural when the adrenaline is up. 

The horse should have been allowed to look, decide there were no real threats and then be allowed to deal with the more immediate threat....that trainer.


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## Aniranch (Mar 8, 2010)

I watched both videos and am appalled at the treatment this horse received. Yes, the horse has ONLY one eye to watch his handlers with, and will react differently to the world around him due to that fact. I saw no dangerous, hazardous behavior from the horse. There are better ways to teach a horse to respect the handler's space. Better and kinder, with his sight deficit taken into consideration. This was insensitive handling at the very least. 

The horse looks kind and willing. He's trying his best to figure out what in the heck Linda and the owner want. He's given no rewards for "try", and the wiggle, wiggle, JERK treatment is unrelenting. 

I really hope the Parelli afficionados are able to see past this charade and realize the Emperor and Empress have no clothes. It won't happen, but I can dream...


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree with Kevin. Could have been done better with lots less stuff. One eyed horses are usually one sided horses. They can be a hand full for sure.

How about a little slack?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> e but if he had been really fearful he wouldn't have been taking his eyes off of her. When my horses are afraid of anything they give it their full attention and this horse could barely keep his eyes on her for 5 seconds at the beginning of the video.


EXACTLY Kevin, he was keeping his eyes on what was bothering him, his unfamiliar surroundings, the reason he was not paying any attention at all to her, he was overstimulated by his environment. She tried to use all 5'1" of her to forca a frightened 1200lb animal to pay attention to her and ignore his natural instincts to watch what he was afraid of and got frustrated and violent when that did not work. NATURAL horsemanship indeed.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

iridehorses said:


> What we all saw was what the person who pieced that video together wanted us to see, much like a PITA propaganda video. We saw bits and pieces portrayed in a way to make her look like a hypocrite.
> 
> *I'm not a fan of the Parelli machine but what is fair is fair and that video was meant to inflame*.


I have to agree on that one. Its really hard to tell whats going on from that little snippet of video. I'll stand by the maxim of Mark Twain. "Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see"


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Quick Reply..

I've been reading about this video on the 'net for the last few days. Apparently it's a clip taken from a training DVD that you can buy. In the full version there are people in a group trying to teach their horses to back up by wiggling the rope, this one fella can't do it, so LP steps in to help - which is where the clip starts - the horse only has one eye, and IMO looks confused - not scared, or aggressive - just completely befuddled as to what is happening


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I found other clips from the same demonstration.

This is before Linda took him.




 
This is after, in a group meet.




 
And here's the original, posted on YouTube. If you couldn't view it before, you can now.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It seems to me that the owner was having more success in the beginning than Linda did during her time at the end of the lead rope.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Why not teach the horse a simple command? BACK !!!!
Oh no just wiggle wiggle *thump*...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The horse was picking it much better with the guy then with her. If he has stopped and given some relief the min the horse started to back the horse would have caught on much faster. He was backing yet the guy keeps smacking him with the line.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Oh yes, and this page.
A Statement From Linda


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

God, how did I miss 11 pages of this?! Oh right, because I avoid anything Parelli-related like it's the plague.

But Linda is absolutely DISGUSTING! I wouldn't let her train a lab rat.

In my eyes, that was abuse. Especially since he's one-eyed, he's just trying to look at something - dang, give him a break. Horses are prey animals, after all.

"Go over to the trees so I can deal with this" With what? A confused horse? That's not how you calm or instil confidence in a horse. He wasn't doing anything wrong. Until they started shaking the lead so hard the metal was hitting him in his face... even then he was looking for the answer she wanted. But I don't think she knew the answer she wanted.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I still see a confused horse.
"You wiggle the rope, I move sideways -- no release, I must be doing it wrong. I move back -- no release. I move forwards -- no release. Well now I'm just confused!"
I do not see a dangerous horse. I see a spirited horse that has no idea what the heck the owner/handler wants.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

So they BEGAN by snapping him in the jaw with the clip?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> So they BEGAN by snapping him in the jaw with the clip?



I think that is my biggest problem with the whole thing. They do not ask they demand by hitting him with the snap then to make things worse they do not give him a release to let me know what is correct and what is not.

It would be like me putting spurs on and jabbing the horse as hard as I can and keep doing it not matter what they did. I always have spurs on but I do not start with the spur to get the horse to move and when I do use them it is very light and I move up and the second I get ANYTHING even the slightest shift I remove my entire leg from the horses side. Then I ask again. Only takes a few times for them to get it. ON the video they started out with the top amount of force and never let the horse know it was correct when he did what he was asked even in the slightest. It is never perfect the first time.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

How anyone can defend this little show of frustration is beyond me. Has every here who is commenting worked with a horse that had limited vision or blind in one eye? I have worked with several, both on the ground and under saddle. They need to trust that you are going to keep them safe when asking them to do something where they need to rely on your vision instead of their own. With one missing eye, not only is his vision to the front compromised, but his vision to the rear is compromised the same way. No wonder he didn't want to back up countless steps! Nothing they are doing delivers clear signals to the horse. Every step he takes or doesn't take is being punished. He is NOT dangerous in any way in any of those clips. He needs a caring, confident handler, just the same as every other horse that has vision problems. That horse is a saint and I only hope his owner walk away from this nonsense or sends him to someone with a brain and a big heart to give that horse some peace.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> So they BEGAN by snapping him in the jaw with the clip?


Thats one of my problems as well. I don't know much about PP, do they advocate the use of a snap on the lead rope? It really negates all that energy they are putting into wiggling the rope. They are just snapping the poor horse in the jaw with a metal clip. 
The reason behind the use of a fluid rope and a rope halter in this "game" is to move your energy up the rope to the fiador knot, which gives a bump to the curb area while it moves the nose knots giving an added cue to back up. I see the reasoning in it, I just don't understand the actions used in this video IF they are using a snap on the rope. Plus they aren't releasing soon enough to let the horse know it is doing the right thing.

ETA- note to LP, never hold a clinic when you are PMSing :lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Vidaloco said:


> Thats one of my problems as well. I don't know much about PP, do they advocate the use of a snap on the lead rope? It really negates all that energy they are putting into wiggling the rope. They are just snapping the poor horse in the jaw with a metal clip.
> ETA- note to LP, never hold a clinic when you are PMSing :lol:


Hahaha!!


Anyways, to anyone who doesn't know what transferred and amplified energy is like.... go get a rope with a clip on the end. 22' is about what Linda uses in that video. get a smaller piece of rope and thread that through the metal clip. Hold that second rope about 6" from the clip. Now have someone at the other end of the long rope wiggle it just slightly. You can definitely feel it, right? The wiggle at one end is transferred all the way down the rope and amplified. 
I dare you to have the person snap the rope like Linda was doing to that poor horse's face.


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

I am so confused. I thought LP was a good trainer? I am honestly glad I can say I don't use PNH (SOrry people who do) I Just never got the point of it.
And LP is just being a brute to that poor horse....


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I've just ordered a new rope halter/leadrope set for Latte - And for the first time i've ordered the leadrpe with no clip.

Why?

Because when i'm ponying her and she trots, the clip swings and I don't want it annoying her face.

If the clip was snapping her delicate jawbone like it is in that video, I think she would kill me.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I am wondering if I saw the same video as others? I saw a VERY disrespectful horse that with alot of pressure still didn't want to pay attention. He didn't give a hoot about the handler and didn't want to disengage his hndqtrs or front. Most horses would respond before you get that forcefull. I don't think she had any other options but to keep at him and try and get his attention for how ever long it took. I also think in the beginning the horse had a reg halter and was switched to the rope halter during a video break. He didn't seem to upset to me or he would have been more focused on Linda


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ He recently had an eye removed, so was adjusting to his new field of vision. His focus is different than that of a two eyed horse, or even an adjusted one eyed horse.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> I am wondering if I saw the same video as others? I saw a VERY disrespectful horse that with alot of pressure still didn't want to pay attention. He didn't give a hoot about the handler and didn't want to disengage his hndqtrs or front. Most horses would respond before you get that forcefull. I don't think she had any other options but to keep at him and try and get his attention for how ever long it took. I also think in the beginning the horse had a reg halter and was switched to the rope halter during a video break. He didn't seem to upset to me or he would have been more focused on Linda


Quite apparently you did. Or you just see things different form most of the other people on this thread... 

Most every one sees a half blind, overstimulated, hot, confused animal being bullied with no release. He was not trying to be disrespectful IMO, he just had NO clue what she wanted of him between her shotty timing and mixed signals. Not to mention the hard metal snap popping him in the jaw with every "bump"(or slam as I saw it) of the leadrope.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

One more thing that I just thought of..... If a person is already dealing with a "potentially dangerous" horse that is soooo spooky and has had a history of this for years, why in the world are they trying to hold the first lesson in a place where it would quite literally be impossible for said horse to not focus on everything else like the other horses being lunged, other people milling around, a camera crew, trees moving in the wind, etc. I don't know about the rest of you but I do know that if a horse has been kept stalled his whole life and only ridden in an arena, never outside, it is amazing how scary a simple tree can be. Especially if his whole viewpoint has been recently fundamentally altered by the loss of an eye.

Get his respect in a more secure environment like a roundpen or arena and _then_ up the ante and put him in a more stressful area. IMHO, it really isn't that much different than how you handle a young horse. You don't start riding him one day and then suddenly expect him to carry a flag in the parade the next. He would be overstimulated and thus, panicky. Same as the horse in the video. If you know they are disrespectful and spooky, work on respect first and spooky later.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> I am wondering if I saw the same video as others? I saw a VERY disrespectful horse that with alot of pressure still didn't want to pay attention. He didn't give a hoot about the handler and didn't want to disengage his hndqtrs or front. Most horses would respond before you get that forcefull. I don't think she had any other options but to keep at him and try and get his attention for how ever long it took. I also think in the beginning the horse had a reg halter and was switched to the rope halter during a video break. He didn't seem to upset to me or he would have been more focused on Linda


Finally!!!! I'm glad I'm not the only one that has defective eyesight.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

I haven't said much about the video because it was obvious to me what the problem is and I see arguments from several sides but the real problem is a bit of everything.

In the end if you take a horse that was confused but also disrespectful and add a "trainer" that is a one trick "wonder" you will always get a disasterous results.

If anything the video shows that Parelli is NOT something that works for EVERY horse and Linda being so singleminded that she either can't or won't use the many other options that are available to GOOD trainers that she let her emotions over ride any small bit of good sense she has and lost her temper.

Any other trainer has a dozen or so other techniques that are part of their knowledge so that if one way won't work you simply switch to something else that will.

Parelli followers and teachers just don't have that ability and draw blanks.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Spyder I agree 150%! ^^^^^


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I just see a horse that wasn't set up for success. I never quite got the wiggling the rope to teach a back up thing, but I was fairly confused watching the video. I can see where the horse had moments of being pushy and invasive, however the training methods used were pretty sub-par in my opinion. The horse continued to get more and more confused and the answer was not made absolutely clear to him. I saw a horse that was attempting to figure out what was going on (as well as being over-stimulated like was mentions) and was getting more and more frustrated as none of his attempts to do the right thing ended in a release. 

Honestly when I first saw it, I thought it was just some beginner wanna-be horse trainer with really bad timing and not much horse sense.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I just see a horse that wasn't set up for success. I never quite got the wiggling the rope to teach a back up thing, but I was fairly confused watching the video. I can see where the horse had moments of being pushy and invasive, however the training methods used were pretty sub-par in my opinion. The horse continued to get more and more confused and the answer was not made absolutely clear to him. I saw a horse that was attempting to figure out what was going on (as well as being over-stimulated like was mentions) and was getting more and more frustrated as none of his attempts to do the right thing ended in a release.
> 
> Honestly when I first saw it, I thought it was just some beginner wanna-be horse trainer with really bad timing and not much horse sense.


Exactly - there is a point, soon after LP takes the training line from the owner, where she is flinging the slack end at the horse's hindquarters. Nothing wrong with that aspect - I've used the slack end of a lunge line in the same way if I was lunging a horse and, for whatever reason, did not have a lunge whip with me. 

Linda's action causes the horse to move forward. . .however, she has her back to the horse and is practically pulling the horse's nose toward her shoulder even as she drives him forward. 

In other words, she is "pushing" him right into her. That's the closest to "invading her space" that I saw, and it was entirely her own doing. Then she takes to whapping him in the face with the line for doing EXACTLY what she was telling him to do! Poor horsemanship, all around.


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## Horsesh442 (Mar 16, 2010)

I can't believe I read all these and I just didn't see what everyone else did....except 2 people.

That horse was very dominant, no respect for people/space. He's probably not the alpha horse in the field but he jockeys for 1 or 2 for placement in the herd. I didn't see a scared horse. I saw what Kevin and Churu... saw.

Linda could have been more effective and had better timing but she didn't hurt the horse.

I was practically born on the back of a horse and they teach me new things everyday. I'm very lucky to have my herd of 12 outside all my windows 24/7. My gdad was so much like the horsemen Pat refers to. If PP isn't your thing than great if he is than great if CA is than great. I personally witnessed some pretty horrible things by some very well known NH professionals but I keep them to myself...I don't want to bias anyone against their chosen "horse guru". No one is perfect all the time. But to bash and bash and bash for pages and pages...wow. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

This video is 5 years old. She has gotten better with timing and feel, maybe she wasn't on her game that day...it does happen.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ The issue isn't so much that it happened - At least for me. If it was a bad day, then fine! We all have bad days. But they chose to package this, put it on a video for begginners (Level 1) and sell it. In other words, they are condoning this sort of 'training' as valid for begginners.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

^ exactly! i dont really care about all that stuf, but her claiming for it not to be a mistake or for herself to know everything about groundwork, that just bugs me.


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## Tina (Feb 2, 2010)

This chick is about as classy and smart as an earth worm! Abuse in it's finest form. Of course the horse isn't paying attention to her, he is looking for a way out as would anything or anyone. Another example of why people should research trainers before handing over their horses.......
Happy riding all : 0 )


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Let me preface this by saying. I am not a "parelli follower" and I agree that her timing sucks when she was trying to get him out of her space in the circles and the snapping of the clip against the face was overkill. Her biggest mistake that I saw was getting behind the motion and letting him circle behind her. In all honesty, that is the only true "mistake" I feel that she made. 

That horse was DANGEROUS. And for all those of you who saw a hot, overexcited, confused horse you're just looking for excuses to rant and rave. Any horse that will plant it's feet, throw it's head in the air and then proceed to WALK INTO the handler that is putting pressure on them needs put in his place. I don't care if he was missing both eyes, both ears and a leg...any horse that willingly walks into you is DANGEROUS. The fact that he relatively calmly walked all over her is even more so. The fact that he is missing an eye makes it EVEN MORE important for him to RESPECT his handler, ANY handler that is attached to the line. 

That was an arrogant horse that had no respect for anyone attached to it's head. If it was overexcited and hot it would have been tearing around her as she was smacking it, I saw total a total lack of respect, arrogance and complete disdain on the part of the horse. Like I stated before I don't agree with her letting him get around and behind her but he DID that not her. Every time she yanked on his face it was because he was either 100% tuning her out (on purpose, not because he was "afraid" or "fearful") or because he was going to run into her with his shoulder. And telling a horse to move away and then having it walk into you is not a reason to reward it so just because it moved doesn't mean it moved where it was supposed to. If this was a training philosophy that worked then every time our horse dances in cross ties, or when you're trying to mount or lead it would be doing what you wanted, right? When you watch a horse's body language watch the shoulder. He almost ran her over numerous times of his own free will. She opened the door and he ran into the door jam. Any horse when you are flailing your arms, applying pressure to their face, etc and they won't move away from you or moves towards you is dominating you. I don't care how "scared" or "overstimulated" they look. And having been in a few of those same situations sometimes you have to get a little mad and a little larger than life to get them to clue into you.

In my opinion a horse that is willfully tuning you out even in the face of heavy stimuli is far more dangerous than a horse that would have been running around throwing kicks. And remember, if the horse had been MOVING OUT OF HER SPACE she wouldn't have been at the intensity she was. If she had a hot horse she wouldn't have been pushing/beating/flogging (insert your own terms here) on it to get it out of her space because it would have naturally wanted to get out of her space. So saying, that she would do this exact same thing to any horse is a load of bull and any self respecting trainer knows that you can't deal with every horse the exact same way and intensity. 

ALSO, for all you praising CC and CA and everyone else...they do the same darn thing with a different stick, a different $100 rope and halter and a different accent. The principles are ALL THE SAME they are just tweaked by every person that uses them. So don't sit there and say that LP yo-yoing her horse is horrible and then say well CA does it so much better. I'm sure CA has had days when he was yo-yoing for all he was worth and the horse was confused or willful. While I agree this was probably not the best marketing video they ever did, it does show to keep at a horse until they give you some attention and focus on you and that sometimes you have to get pretty high in intensity. Also, all you saints out there that have never gotten frustrated with a horse I commend you. I agree she was frustrated but I don't see her "angrily taking it out on the horse" I see her doing what she had to do to get it to focus on her in that particular session. Would she have probably done things differently if she had to do it again? Most definitely. Did she hurt the horse or cause any damage to it's training and did she achieve the desired goal of tuning him into her...yes. Hindsight and bleacher seats always afford the best views don't you think? It's hard to be in the middle of the action and make every decision the 100% right one at any given moment. Also, I don't care if it was the middle of a freakin hurricane, a horse that runs you over needs corrected and you can't only train in optimal conditions and a completely sound/weather/stimuli/etc proof arena. You need to take things as they happen. I am also under the impression that this horse had been handled in this area before or an area like it and it wasn't just a green horse. From the posture of this particular horse he had the owner's number, knew how to use it and applied it to all people in general. 

Go ahead and bash my eyesight and my philosophies. I don't expect people to agree with me...however I calls it like I sees it. And in my opinion, a horse that won't get out of your space or ignores big stimuli is the most dangerous because they aren't aware of you or where they are moving their bodies.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Dangerous?

I guess it's all relative.

The only time I saw the horse do anything that I'd consider "invading space" was when LP was whacking at it's hindquarters while her back was facing it and she pulled it toward her. The result, of course, was the horse tried to get away from the "whacking" by moving forward. . .and towards Linda. Then she punished him for it.

Like all of Parelli's other "products," people seem to think that just having the name attached to it means it is the best. Linda is just another "product" who could never get anywhere as a rider so she hooked up with a well-marketed cowboy. Didn't change a thing, though.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Nittany You have now become a member of a very exclusive club. I was starting to think that I was missing something in the video but I'm glad some other people see the same things I did.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I guess that's the beautiful thing about opinions... there is no right or wrong. It's also why we have an imperfect judicial system -- one person screams "abuse" (or whatever) and another can argue that they were just acting within their rights. 
Guess that's the reason people still send their horses to known (and convicted) animal abusers, like Cleve Wells -- he gets results, so he must be doing something right.... right? 
Topics like this will always have people on either side of the fence - those who see something wrong, and those who don't.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

^^^ JDI, one of the great things about the internet, we all get to shout our opinions from our own personal soap box :lol: I like to think everyone is right in their own way. I'm just more right than everyone else :wink::shock: JK


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> like Cleve Wells


Must be a typo; I believe his name is spelled "Cleft Balls".


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

:roll:

The difference being that Clinton Anderson and Stacy Westfall don't feel the need to tell the rest of the world they're "doin it wrong" if they don't buy their **** or follow their program.

Parelli can be quoted time and time again by trashing any other training program, or using any other equipment, and yet it's blatantly obvious they aren't opposed to getting physical at all.

It's cute how they like to pretend they "bond" with a horse, when in reality, they're dominating it in every way possible exactly like the old time cowboys they like to trash so badly.

I don't have an issue with the video. I have an issue with the idiot who likes to talk **** about everyone else for doing the SAME crap she just did.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Who is Cleve Wells and why doesn't someone start a thread about him?


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

FHotD Article (Warning: Graphic)
SHSR Article
HTfH Original Article
HTfH Follow-Up
Video Clips from CW Clinic


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Oh yes, and this thread from back in August was dedicated to the subject.
But we can discuss it again, if anyone cares to repost it! Golden entertainment for me, if anyone gets defensive. x3 I'm terrible.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Kevinshorses: I knew I would but I had to add my $0.02 cents and try to inject some common sense into the angry mob of parelli haters. If I posted that video you would be confused, think I was a third rate trainer and get on with your lives. It's amazing what a stellar marketing team, making "special" equipment to sell for mega bucks and forcing your name into every horsehold/household can do for your popularity levels... 

I don't have an issue with the video. I have an issue with the idiot who likes to talk **** about everyone else for doing the SAME crap she just did.
[/QUOTE]

I am in agreement here to a point. The horse needed some work, she did it. Maybe not the best way, but it didn't hurt him and he seemed to learn something from it or at least stop running her over which amounts to the same thing. It wasn't abuse, it wasn't really good natural horsemanship either but it was real life. 

And I'm on the fence about the "Parelli Machine" mindset. They are only hit the hardest because they market the hardest, they make the most "stuff" and they appeal to the masses of backyard riders with "problem horses" because of this. I've heard of more horses/riders being helped than hurt by their system and I don't think the fundamentals of it are bad. Maybe not complete, but the basics are the same as everyone else more or less and are grounded in good strong principles. And on the other trainer bashing thing...you're an idiot if you don't try to sell yourself whether you want to be an arrogant son-of-a-mare about it or polite...that's your prerogative good or bad as dictated by society and your own personal code of conduct. 

That being said, I can't honestly bash someone for finding a niche in the market that has a LOT of disposable income and exploiting it. If I could I probably would do the same thing...It's all well and good to bash the "parelli machine" but if you were put in their shoes, getting their company, their personal multimillion dollar ranch, world tours and international acclaim to continue it... would you walk away from it? Whether you would or not is your own personal feelings and you never actually know unless it happens, which it won't. But just be aware that maybe some of your hate is that she's just a regular woman, with a regular set of training principles, a regular human brain and body with the resulting strengths and weaknesses, one heck of a marketing team and a whole lotta luck and move on with your life.

And back to Clive Wells. I really don't feel any sympathy for the people that send their horses to KNOWN abusers and mistreaters. I do however feel the utmost empathy for the horses that are forced to suffer. Revoking showing principles of known horse abusers might do nothing for the human aspect but it will save countless animals from suffering and abuse in the name of showing and human pleasure. You pick which is more important.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> :roll:
> 
> The difference being that Clinton Anderson and Stacy Westfall don't feel the need to tell the rest of the world they're "doin it wrong" if they don't buy their **** or follow their program.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I've read comments from other people saying "well, the horse changed by the end of it, so it worked."

Right. . .and horses can also "change" after having their heads tied high to a wall for hours at a time. They "change" as a result of being trained using rollkur. They "change" when they are knocked down and nearly choked-out. 

Does that make the methods used to get the horse to "change" were carried out in the most effective way, or by a competent person? 

I mean, it "worked" in the end. . .so that means the "trainer" is right. . .as long as her last name is Parelli, I guess. There are an awful lot of holes in the horse's background story as told by LP. Nothing unusual there, though. It's not the first time the Parellis have fluffed up a story to make themselves sound competent.:lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> The horse needed some work, she did it. Maybe not the best way, but it didn't hurt him and he seemed to learn something from it or at least stop running her over which amounts to the same thing. It wasn't abuse, it wasn't really good natural horsemanship either but it was real life.


I would like to re-iterate this:



> I guess that's the beautiful thing about opinions... there is no right or wrong. It's also why we have an imperfect judicial system -- one person screams "abuse" (or whatever) and another can argue that they were just acting within their rights.
> *Guess that's the reason people still send their horses to known (and convicted) animal abusers, like Cleve Wells -- he gets results, so he must be doing something right.... right?*
> Topics like this will always have people on either side of the fence - those who see something wrong, and those who don't.


Me? I see borderline abuse in that video. The metal clip hitting the forse about the face like that is enough to make my blood boil. Others, like yourself, see nothing wrong.
I see abuse in Rollkur, others don't.
I see abuse in "rapping," soring, using a woodscrew bit, and some other such controversial topics.... and others don't.
My point is it's _not_ just about the end result, you _have to_ look at the path taken to get there. You cannot say "well, the horse is 'better' in the end" - what was the cost to _get_ to that end?
I guarantee you that if you (universal you) had posted a video of yourself doing that, you'd get the same outlash. Linda Parelli might be getting a touch more, but that's because she's a 'trainer' (using the term loosely) whose target audience is beginners. I don't know about you, but when I was younger and much more naive, I worked under a trainer who I now look back and cringe at.... but guess what? That trainer got results!!


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Its good to know that I can dissapear for a few days to a week and the ONE thread I was following that is still easily located and going strong is this one... :lol:


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

There is no borderline to abuse. Either it is, or it isn't. While I wholeheartedly agree with you that smacking the horse in the face with the snap didn't help him and was unnecessary I am of the mindset that letting the horse run the owner and trainer over is not acceptable. And if she had spent the entire time beaning him with the snap that would have been a different story as well but she didn't. If the owner was paying to come to the parelli ranch and work one-on-one with Linda then I'm sure that other avenues were at least explored first as that is a big chunk of change. I personally, not knowing the horse, the owner or the story or even what it's behavior is truly like I can't consciously stand there and call her an abuser. I can call her a less than stellar trainer but I can't see crucifying her and labeling her an abuser for one third-rate training session that just happened to be caught on tape. If you happen to know the whole story, the horse's behavior before this video and after then by all means share it.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

The whole story as given by the Parelli PR was posted in a few links earlier in the thread, it should be very easy to find...

I agree with JDI though, What some people see as abuse and an unskilled "trainer" becoming agitated and frustrated(if you watch her body language, it is easy to see) some people see a woman telling a horse to back up...

That does not mean either is wrong, just because 3 or so people feel differently does not mean an entire forum of people are wrong, and conversely, the three who oppose the ideas might not be wrong. But if we look at majority vote on this topic, MOST people see the abusive side of an unskilled, agitated, failed dressage rider trying to ride on the coat tails of her trainer husband, and giving unclear signals to and bullying a half blind, over stimulated, young hot horse.

I am in the latter category, having seen plenty of Linda Parelli's work and reading up on her past failures as a rider and trainer, not to mention the general lack of success with the Parelli program as well. After reading the press release attempting to vilify the horse in question and make LP look like shining beacon of horse savvy and wisedom, it only furthers my sincere opinion on the matter.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> There is no borderline to abuse. Either it is, or it isn't.


I think there is a borderline.

I find any twisted wire bit abusive.
I find using a leverage or solid (not broken) bit in a young, uneducated horse abusive.
I find using a chain over or under the nose or through the mouth abusive.
I find an overly tight nose band (or one to low) and curb chain abusive.
I find using spurs to get 'more go' abusive (like in local barrel racing rodeos for example)... 
I find ill fitting tack, regardless of your knowledge or lack there of or money issues abusive. 

I don't like draw reins, side reins, training forks or any other gaget either. 

You will find MANY people who do not agree with me, and do not feel it is abusive.... 

Me? I stick to my personal morals and continue to expand my knowledge; and I feel that is where most people go wrong. :?


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

FlyinSoLow said:


> Its good to know that I can dissapear for a few days to a week and the ONE thread I was following that is still easily located and going strong is this one... :lol:


:lol: I'm amazed as well! I think its because its bashing LP not another member. She does make an easy target doesn't she!? Its of course fun dis'ing a successful PR woman married to a wealthy horse trainer :wink:


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I would have the same opinion no matter who the trainer was.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

lacyloo said:


> I would have the same opinion no matter who the trainer was.


I'm in the same boat. I do have to say that the fact that she is a world-renowned (for better or worse) "trainer" that advocates her program for beginners just makes it even more irksome.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

lacyloo said:


> I would have the same opinion no matter who the trainer was.


My point was that if the same things were being said about a member, this thread would have been closed a long time ago. Probably on page 1


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Defiantly :lol:


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Yeah, I wouldn't care if the horse was being treated this way by my own trainer or other horse people. I still hold strong to my opinion that the horse was not being treated humanely in this situation. There are many other ways to deal with a horse coming into your space, without even having to touch him. 
Most of the horses I've dealt with that invade my space "aggressively" were fixed by either carrying a dressage whip/jumping bat and waving it at or tapping them, or by simply using body language (you walk on me, I walk on you). Even with the most crowding horses I've dealt with, I've never had to hit them in the face. Yes, I have thrown a few slaps to the chest/shoulders or a leadrope to the flank area of the especially naughty ones, but hitting a horse in the face never accomplishes anything but fearful "compliance". 

Think: The head and neck don't control the legs and body, which move the horse. If you want the horse to move, why not start at the body?


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> I think there is a borderline.
> 
> I find any twisted wire bit abusive.
> I find using a leverage or solid (not broken) bit in a young, uneducated horse abusive.
> ...


I didn't mean that everyone's opinion of abuse is the same. But you said that you think there is a borderline and then listed everything that you think IS abusive. You didn't say that you think a twisted wire bit is borderline abusive, you said that you think it is abusive. To me, someone saying that is borderline abusive is like sitting on the middle of the fence and taking no stand. I don't think abuse is one of those things were you can say it's borderline, either you think it is or it's not and there is no real right or wrong. Something you think is abusive I might not think it is, and something I think is abusive you might be ok with. I wasn't arguing that some people think it's abusive, I was just merely commenting that I felt that some people were jumping on the abuse bandwagon because it was parelli, and Linda in particular. I also don't particularly care for her but I don't hate her either and I don't think she is anywhere near in the league of Clive Wells. But again that's my opinion. There's a difference to being a mediocre trainer and an actually, routinely abusive one. And I personally think she fits in the mediocre box and not the abusive box.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I'm in the same boat. I do have to say that the fact that she is a world-renowned (for better or worse) "trainer" that advocates her program for beginners just makes it even more irksome.


Exactly. . .I don't think the "training" in the video would be any more or less acceptable if it had been any other "trainer" doing it. 

I've seen several people, on this forum and others, say that "if it wasn't Linda Parelli, people wouldn't be bashing it so much. . .people just want to bash Linda Parelli."

That makes me wonder if they would be as quick to defend the video of it _wasn't _Linda Parelli? Would the die-hard Parelli followers. . .who support PP and LP no matter what. . .still support the methods used on that horse if it had been _another_ trainer doing the exact same thing? 

Or is it only acceptable if the trainer uses a carrot stick, a rope halter, and a yacht-rope training line and throws in words like _savvy_ and _horsenality _and _fluidity_?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Untill this thread I have not said too much positive about any Parelli but I just couldn't bring myself to read the outragious comments about what was happening in the video.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Untill this thread I have not said too much positive about any Parelli but I just couldn't bring myself to read the outragious comments about what was happening in the video.


Well... You know Kevin....

I didn't get much out of the video, I was shocked the first time I watched it and I said so. Then you came on with your _silly little voice of reason _so I re-watched it. I still didn't get a ton from the video itself but from YOUR explaination I was able to understand what she was trying to do and why she was trying to do it. So when I was at home longing my own sweet pony... I thought of your typed words, not really her video and I put did what you explained. You know what? It worked.

SO I geuss I can now say that I learned from Parelli through your eyes... teehee....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I didn't like the video, but now I feel for LP in some way. Because it's been going already on what? 16 pages, mostly same comments. Folks, lets give her a break and switch to someone else worse IMO! For example Julie Goodnight (spell?) and her shock collar for horses to train out of bad habits!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Start a thread! I dare ya!!!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Well... You know Kevin....
> 
> I didn't get much out of the video, I was shocked the first time I watched it and I said so. Then you came on with your _silly little voice of reason _so I re-watched it. I still didn't get a ton from the video itself but from YOUR explaination I was able to understand what she was trying to do and why she was trying to do it. So when I was at home longing my own sweet pony... I thought of your typed words, not really her video and I put did what you explained. You know what? It worked.
> 
> SO I geuss I can now say that I learned from Parelli through your eyes... teehee....


Thanks?


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I didn't like the video, but now I feel for LP in some way. Because it's been going already on what? 16 pages, mostly same comments. Folks, lets give her a break and switch to someone else worse IMO! For example Julie Goodnight (spell?) and her shock collar for horses to train out of bad habits!


Understood. . .I didn't like the video, and I wouldn't like it whether it was LP or any other "trainer" doing the exact same thing.

The problem, though, is that is WAS LP, and this wasn't just some backyard video taken of Linda during a "bad day." 

This was a video sold as a _training_ video. Linda, in this case, was supposed to be the trainer. Given that Pat and Linda have such a devoted group of followers, many of whom are very much novice or timid horse owners, Linda's handling of that horse is a poor example of "training" and not something worthy of trying to emulate.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

What I have been trying to convey is that while I didn't think that she was displaying great training strategies or skills, she wasn't abusive either. I think people are too quick to hop on the abuse bandwagon when they don't agree with someone's training or behavior. Getting angry with a horse and being a little more physical than most isn't abuse. If the horse had hobbled away, been bleeding, truly fearful then yes by all means blow the abuse whistle. If the horse at the end of whatever they were doing is even relatively calmer, paying attention to the handler, licking, chewing, even just standing still alone and blowing then it wasn't true abuse. Did it help the horse in the long run? Who knows. But to me bad training is bad training, abuse is abuse and I feel there is a big difference between the two. Now if you want to get into the mental aspect and the horrors of retraining a horse I believe that's another topic. I don't think this horse was abused, simply not trained very well in this particular situation. But again, that's MY opinion.


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