# So lying is alright?



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

First off I'd like to say I'm not trying to bring the fun out of Christmas even though I do not celebrate it nor believe in Santa Claus. The only thing we do usually is have dinner with some close family and study the history of Christmas and its traditions.

Tonight we went through the history and stuff at church and something really interested me.

Adults usually don't believe in Santa Claus, yes? But most kids do and the parents support it. So basically the parents are saying to their kids that Santa is real but they actually don't believe in him. They tell their kids he's real yet they know he's a myth...so they are lying?

And what I said was that parents teach their children not to lie but they are lying to their kids. Or is it completely alright because its Christmas? 

Another thing that was pointed out, if kids grow up to learn Santa isn't real and they haven't seen the real him, then why would they believe in God? 

Just something that interested me and I'm curious to see what others have to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

kids believe in Santa because their parents create it such that they do, and they WANT to believe in him. it's not so much "lying" as it is breathing life into a fantasy that is about unexpected joy, abundance, generousity, giving and love. 

kids learn that it's meant to be symbolic of their parents' love, and , for Christians, the love of God and Jesus. I am not a religious person, so Christmas was not strongly connected to Jesus, though I did , and do, think the whole Christmas story is very beautiful .

to be honest, I think kids believe in God, and religion, based pretty much on what their parents tell them. eventually , they may come to their won conclusions, but how you see God is very much a product of your birth circumstances.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

How old are you?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Us adults still believe in Santa just in a different way. As you get older you'll realize that Santa is the spirit of giving. Could be gifts, a little something to charity, lending a friend a shoulder to lean on or an ear to listen when they need it, giving an animal a home that desperately needs a good one, etc...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Santa is the spirit of loving and giving. He is very much alive and well in my household.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

What about the Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Goblins, Witches and Ghosts during Halloween?

Many Kids have imaginary friends and other things they believe in in their early years, this to me is a part of growing up and expanding their minds and creativity.

To say all these thing are lies is pushing the envelope, IMO

Merry Christmas to all 

PS, Santa came to my house last night and spread some Joy :wink:

.


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## Sangria2 (Mar 29, 2014)

It is a lie and no it isn't alright. I have warned my children not to involve me in the Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc tales to my grandchildren. I won't lie to them if they ask me point blank, that includes prettying it up to lead them to believe a lie. 

One of my favorite quotes: If falsehood, like truth, had but one face, we would be more on equal terms. For we would consider the contrary of what the liar said to be certain. But the opposite of truth has a hundred thousand faces and an infinite field. ~Michel Eyquem de Montaigne


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## Toucan (Sep 8, 2012)

The world we live in is built on lies... The financial elite & central banks that control every human on this earth, feed you lies on a daily basis.

Why pick on one of the biggest positive events that takes place on earth & spreads joy, light & happiness among us?

Just why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

It’s Christmas as usual, but every year I realize that I’ve learned something new about the birth of Christ -- something that makes it all matter even more than it ever has. This year I am even more struck with the reality of Christ’s birth and the precise divine planning that went into that first Christmas. Christmas is not a fairytale -- Santa notwithstanding. It’s a documented historical reality -- documented both in writing and in the stars….

You see, most other religions have at their center beings that are not thoroughly embedded in recorded history, dramatically connected to celestial events, clearly placed in both time and space. Siddarhtha Guatama (Buddha) is thought to have lived somewhere in the East, sometime between the 6th and the 4th centuries B.C.; we know little about his background or his ancestors. Mohammed was born in a specific time (570 A.D.) in a specific place (Mecca), and we know he was orphaned and raised by his uncle; other than that we have no information about his lineage; he just pops into history. The Hindu gods have no human presence -- no human prophets, just sages who appear occasionally and then ghost off.

And so we are here on a different continent over 2,000 years later and we buy gifts, as the Magi did, and we put a star on the top of the tree and lights all over our houses, and sing about angels and wise men and shepherds, half the time giving no thought to the reality of what we celebrate: the birth of the God-Man, Israel’s promised Messiah, the Savior of the world. There will be peace on Earth and there always has been good will toward men.

Sources: Allen Johnson’s pdf file “Rediscovering Ancient Chronologies” 

Rick Larson’s video “The Bethlehem Star”


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Sangria said:


> It is a lie and no it isn't alright. I have warned my children not to involve me in the Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc tales to my grandchildren. I won't lie to them if they ask me point blank, that includes prettying it up to lead them to believe a lie.
> 
> One of my favorite quotes: If falsehood, like truth, had but one face, we would be more on equal terms. For we would consider the contrary of what the liar said to be certain. But the opposite of truth has a hundred thousand faces and an infinite field. ~Michel Eyquem de Montaigne



Well bless your heart and I hope you have a VERY Merry Christmas...if bringing hope to someone who otherwise wouldn't have any or a smile when something in their life has them feeling down, I would rather that then be so ornery as to think what you wrote. 

There is enough hardness, stark reality as an adult, I would rather a bit of "lies" while they are young. Shoot, even in my mid 40's, riding on the horse I exercise, I close my eyes and tell myself what a great rider I am...I am a good rider but what harm is it to find a bit of peace or good will or hope?


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## Sangria2 (Mar 29, 2014)

GreySorrel said:


> Well bless your heart and I hope you have a VERY Merry Christmas...if bringing hope to someone who otherwise wouldn't have any or a smile when something in their life has them feeling down, I would rather that then be so ornery as to think what you wrote.
> 
> There is enough hardness, stark reality as an adult, I would rather a bit of "lies" while they are young. Shoot, even in my mid 40's, riding on the horse I exercise, I close my eyes and tell myself what a great rider I am...I am a good rider but what harm is it to find a bit of peace or good will or hope?


I want a relationship with my children & grandchildren to be built on truth, even if it is inconvenient. If that makes me hard or "ornery" or stupid as in "bless your heart" so be it.
Stark reality will come at some point in their lives. The child who has just discovered Santa isn't real, that Mom & Dad lied. Or for parents who have fallen on hard times and can't afford that gift their child has requested of "Santa". How disappointing for a child who has chosen to do the right thing and behave well when it doesn't have its request fulfilled, while another child it knows, behaves horribly, receives everything it asked for?? 

I gave my opinion on the OPs question, I'm not here to bash anyone for theirs.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Sangria said:


> I want a relationship with my children & grandchildren to be built on truth, even if it is inconvenient. If that makes me hard or "ornery" or stupid as in "bless your heart" so be it.
> Stark reality will come at some point in their lives. The child who has just discovered Santa isn't real, that Mom & Dad lied. Or for parents who have fallen on hard times and can't afford that gift their child has requested of "Santa". How disappointing for a child who has chosen to do the right thing and behave well when it doesn't have its request fulfilled, while another child it knows, behaves horribly, receives everything it asked for??
> 
> I gave my opinion on the OPs question, I'm not here to bash anyone for theirs.


Sangria...I WAS one of those children who got only what we could afford and I needed, but I still believed in Santa Clause. One year my favorite uncle got me a beautiful spotted tiger coat and put it from "Tony The Tiger"...you remember that character off of the cereal box? I was over the moon and wore that coat out. Being poor, sometimes you have to have a bit of hope, or to see your parents, and in my case, it was my Grandmother who was raising me as my mother had passed away when I was 5, try her hardest to make it as best she could for me and her family. 

I too have 2 beautiful granddaughters and they believe in Santa. When I use the term believe, it isn't as he is a real living breathing person but in the terms of spirit, of giving, and of hope and love and fellowship of family. 

I use to do palliative care for the dying....hope is something they are short of and if it meant not quite telling the truth then absolutely I would try to ease their passing, if it meant saying you are "alright" or you sleep I will see you tomorrow, knowing that no I would not, then so be it. Holding their hand and telling them what they wished to hear to ease their burden, if that makes me a liar for anything, from Christmas to this, then I will gladly shoulder that burden so someone somewhere had or has a reason to smile. 

The world is too dark, too filled with hatred and unkind words and too give me give me or money and power. We have gotten away from what the spirit of the holiday and basic human kindness had to offer. Sometimes people need a bit of hope.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Taffy Clayton said:


> How old are you?


I am a teenager 14-18. Why?


It's interesting to see how everyone else feels about this and I'll respect your opinions.

Kids will have imaginary friends, which there is no harm in that really. 

I have seen the Tooth Fairy. See him everyday. My dad. I'd be half asleep at night when he'd come up. :lol:

I don't think Christmas should be the big moment to give and be kind. We should be kind for the other 11 months and giving as we can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> for a child who has chosen to do the right thing and behave well when it doesn't have its request fulfilled,


If a child is upset because it didn't get what it wanted after being good, that child isn't being good for the right reasons and won't continue to do do unless it is "paid" for being good. I preferred my kids to be good because it was the right thing to do. Why has that changed?


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

I don't look at it as lying. Lying to me first and foremost is when a person says something that isn't true for personal gain, to cover up a crime or mis doing, to harm, hurt someone on purpose, etc. 

While the 'lie' doesn't last long when you think about it, the feeling, the kindness and spirit of giving does. Its also how children learn to be thoughtful of others, and the joy of giving. Somewhere along the way children learn that these types of ' lies' do good. They tell grandma how much they love that knitted sweater or whatever.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Roman said:


> I am a teenager 14-18. Why?
> 
> 
> It's interesting to see how everyone else feels about this and I'll respect your opinions.
> ...


While I completely agree with your last statement, IN MY OPINION (lest ye think I'm forcing this on anyone, and I CAN have an opinion, in spite of popular belief :razz The whole bible thing is as big a fairy tale as santa clause, so what's the difference? I fail to understand how any intelligent thinking being can take those tales as truth. On faith? Sort of like having faith in the US guv'mint. NOT!


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

squirrelfood said:


> If a child is upset because it didn't get what it wanted after being good, that child isn't being good for the right reasons and won't continue to do do unless it is "paid" for being good. I preferred my kids to be good because it was the right thing to do. Why has that changed?


I agree with you there. We don't get allowances but some hard work we do pays off, such as raising pigs or cows we get money when we sell them. Not a whole lot but I actually like working with the cows and pigs so its more fun than a paycheck. XD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

squirrelfood said:


> While I completely agree with your last statement, IN MY OPINION (lest ye think I'm forcing this on anyone, and I CAN have an opinion, in spite of popular belief :razz The whole bible thing is as big a fairy tale as santa clause, so what's the difference? I fail to understand how any intelligent thinking being can take those tales as truth. On faith? Sort of like having faith in the US guv'mint. NOT!


Because I have faith. And God is higher and better than our government.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

And that is YOUR opinion, which won't change MY opinion. Merry Christmas.


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

we adressed all our gifts this year from us and not santa. When my 7 yr old questions this, I am going to tell her Santa is in her heart, and we will go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

squirrelfood said:


> And that is YOUR opinion, which won't change MY opinion. Merry Christmas.


Happy Holidays, I respect your opinion and that's okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Just a little story....

After riding all day in the Cohutta Wilderness, a fellow came up and wanted to know how to get back to the Dally Gap Trail head......

I showed him on the map where he was and he said something to the effect of no, I can't be there....I'm supposed to be on the Penitentiary branch....

I asked him if he believed in Santa Clause....and he said yes....so I handed him my map and a bottle of water and said "merry Christmas"....

So, if anyone asks you.......the correct answer is always...yes...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm curious about your post. You go to Church but you don't celebrate Christmas? You went over the history and stuff in Church? What kind of Church do you go to? (I'm really just curious).

As for Christmas and Santa Claus, I think the most important thing is to always remember the TRUE meaning of Christmas, which is to celebrate the birth of Christ, our Savior. 

As for Santa Claus, I think that the idea behind it is all for good and it brings magic to the holidays. In my opinion, Santa Claus is real and will always be.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Yes, I do go to church. The thing about Christmas is actually the word if you think about it. Christ-mass which was shortened to just Christmas. Mass is all the pagan and stuff, and you add that to Christ, they do not mix and don't go together. Another thing, the Bible never says anywhere that Jesus was born on December 25. Researchers say that it was more than likely it was May - October when the shepherds would be out in the fields with their animals.

I'm not trying to push my beliefs onto other people, that is just what I believe.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Roman said:


> Yes, I do go to church. The thing about Christmas is actually the word if you think about it. Christ-mass which was shortened to just Christmas. Mass is all the pagan and stuff, and you add that to Christ, they do not mix and don't go together. Another thing, the Bible never says anywhere that Jesus was born on December 25. Researchers say that it was more than likely it was May - October when the shepherds would be out in the fields with their animals.
> 
> I'm not trying to push my beliefs onto other people, that is just what I believe.


You do know that "Pagan and stuff" is where Christianity got their beliefs? They borrowed much of what the Pagan's believed and adopted it as their own.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Bringing evergreens inside and decorating them is a Pagan tradition usurped by Christianity.

Christmas is on December 25th simply because this time of year is when the non Christians celebrated the Winter Solstice, not because it's the actual birth date of Christ. In order to make Christianity more palatable to those they were trying to woo to the faith, they incorporated many of the non Christian holidays and gave them a Christian spin. 

Easter is another example, as no one knows the exact date Christ was crucified. The non Christians celebrated the return of Spring and renewal of fecundity, which is why there are bunnies and chicks included in all Easter celebrations. Christianity took a rather lusty celebration of life and rebirth and turned it into a religious holiday.

I do have to admire the early Christians for their ingenuity. After all, it's easier to convert people if you're pandering to the beliefs they already hold.

Knowing the true histories doesn't mean I can't celebrate the SPIRIT of what the holidays are supposed to mean nowadays. For me, they're just an excuse to celebrate openly what I try to keep in my heart and mind during the year.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

GreySorrel said:


> You do know that "Pagan and stuff" is where Christianity got their beliefs? They borrowed much of what the Pagan's believed and adopted it as their own.


Yes I do know that. Still we do not do it.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Just because you can't touch , see, hear, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. :wink:


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Fort fireman said:


> Just because you can't touch , see, hear, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. :wink:


That would go for santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy, right? I can even add in unicorns.........nah.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

squirrelfood said:


> That would go for santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy, right? I can even add in unicorns.........nah.


Absolutely unicorns are real. I step on one about every other day at the house. Of course it's one of my 3 yr olds but it's very real when you are bare footed. :lol:


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Fort fireman said:


> Of course it's one of my 3 yr olds but it's very real when you are bare footed. :lol:


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm also wondering what the goal is here. What does a "lie" matter to you, if it doesn't concern you? IE-What does it matter that other people celebrate Christmas/perpetuate the myth of Santa if you don't? Live and let live.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am quite surprised, and even a bit shocked, to hear that you group the "Mass" part of Christmas (and I assume you mean the Catholic Mass) in with pagan things. you really feel Catholicism is the same as paganism? and not a type of Christianity.

to me, that is a very strange belief.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Zexious said:


> I'm also wondering what the goal is here. What does a "lie" matter to you, if it doesn't concern you? IE-What does it matter that other people celebrate Christmas/perpetuate the myth of Santa if you don't? Live and let live.



I don't think Roman is saying people shouldnt do it, but she is wondering how it differs from out and out lying, and if you ask kids to believe in one thing that they later find out does not actually exist, won't it make them question all that you've been teaching them about the existence of God?


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I am quite surprised, and even a bit shocked, to hear that you group the "Mass" part of Christmas (and I assume you mean the Catholic Mass) in with pagan things. you really feel Catholicism is the same as paganism? and not a type of Christianity.
> 
> to me, that is a very strange belief.


No, I wasn't implying Catholics as pagans...just what the word mass means. Just something we had gone over.

And you are right in your second post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what does "mass" mean, to you?


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Pagan rituals and stuff. But I would think the Catholic Mass has a very different meaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've often wondered if the Santa story and the abundance of gifts, the big meal, family is the reason so many suffer depression at this time of year when they realize it's a fantasy. Adults try to recapture childhood memories and it doesn't work because they are no longer children.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I am quite surprised, and even a bit shocked, to hear that you group the "Mass" part of Christmas (and I assume you mean the Catholic Mass) in with pagan things. you really feel Catholicism is the same as paganism? and not a type of Christianity.
> 
> to me, that is a very strange belief.


I can see why. Look at all the "graven images" they use in their worship. All the pomp and ceremony, all the special clothing they seem to need to "perform" a mass....It rather outdoes a Pagan ceremony by far.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Roman said:


> Pagan rituals and stuff. But I would think the Catholic Mass has a very different meaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same basic meaning, actually, just different words.


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## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

I grew up in a Christian home, and my parents decided not to tell us about or encourage us to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. because they ran into the same question as Roman did (being able to trust that what they say is true about Jesus after lying about other fantasy characters)

Now, I certainly don't think that I would never have been able to trust my parents ever again if I had believed in Santa and he turned out to be fake. Certainly, I would have been upset. But I don't think I would have been old enough and think deeply enough to question everything my parents had ever told me. And as you get older, you can separate things out and believe your own beliefs. 

Jesus's birth and spending time with family was what instilled in me the 'spirit' of Santa (giving, joy, peace on earth, etc.). The bribe of being good or else getting nothing never would have, and I can say I've safely made it into my teen years without resenting my parents over Santa


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When I was a kid I tried to do what was write, not because of Santa or biblical teachings, but to not disappoint my parents. They were good kindly people and my father loved to be involved with his kids.


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

I remember being terrified of Santa as a child. A man who can break into your house without you knowing? that had to pass by me sleeping to get to the tree? That can see you ALL THE TIME? That last bit terrified me. I'd hate showering or changing, trying to do so while crouched in a corner, trying to determine where he could be watching from. It was a terrifying few weeks sometimes. 

I think when I have kids, I'm going to go the realistic route. Not deny his existence, but put him in a more spiritual light than corporeal. Say he is the spirit of giving or something. 

On the religious front...I never have believed in God. I'm starting to read the bible now, and am coming to my own beliefs, but I definitely remember comparing Jesus and God to Santa, once it was revealed that it wasn't true. I also don't see Christmas as Christian, more of a gathering of friends and family. 

Do I think it makes someone a bad person? No. it really does brighten up the holidays, though I would love to see less emphasis placed on presents. (The real portal to adulthood: receiving clothes and a slow cooker for Christmas, and loving it)


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

There is nothing frightening or harmful in the Catholic mass. It's old, highly ritualized but totally harmless. Many find it ancient predictability comforting.

Order of Mass: Basic Texts for the Roman Catholic Eucharist

Santa has his beginnings in the early church. The mythology grew with the telling like so many mythologies that are with us today.

St. Nicholas to Santa: The Surprising Origins of Mr. Claus

There are many people who view the Bible as a mythology same as Zeus, Odin, Tuatha Dé Danann. Get away from the Bible belt and the world is different. Not wrong, just different.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLx5hXAJctdghJD9_DzvxicmhPuW59plNY

This is a set of documentaries that cover the history of the Bible and it's growth into present day form. No doctrine added. Just the history. John Romer, the narrator, does an excellent job with all of his documentaries.

Santa falls into the realm of modern mythology. The Bible for many falls into the realm of ancient mythology.

There are many "pagans" who still look at the Bible as a great book full of good morality stories.

If a particular doctrine, faith, myth, or bedtime story gives you comfort then so be it. Makes you human. It boils down to Hope, the last thing in Pandora's Box.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My grandparents lied to my parents about Santa, my parents lied to us about Santa, my siblings and I lied to our children about Santa and
Guess what?
We all grew up just fine, no mental scarring or sociopathic tendencies, no dislike or distrust for it
In fact our happiest memories of Christmas are woven into that wonderful magical time they took so much trouble to create for us.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, I grew up celebrating Christmas in an atheist household. I was not told that Santa was real...quite the opposite, actually. I was robbed of the Santa experience!  So I LIED to DD, and told her Santa was real.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I do believe that when kids are told that Santa is real - as in corporeal; someone who comes down the chimney, has flying reindeer, etc. etc they are being lied to if they are told in such a way that it is not a fairy story. So, for example, as a bedtime story, "once upon a time" sort of thing is OK. Same goes for all those other holiday characters. I once, just once, convinced a child that he had just missed seeing the Easter Bunny. He utterly believed me and was so disappointed. I felt so bad about it and later apologized to him. I'll never do that again.

As a spirit, feeling, or feel-good tale - I think its okay and and grow into a real family treasure. As a truth, I think it sets a dangerous precedent to grow a family upon.

When my g-kids ask, I will tell them the truth. I will not make it harsh, nor will I tippy toe around it. The truth is just fine as it is, and my g-kids will know that g-ma ALWAYS tells the truth no matter what they ask about.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

First off: The majority if not the entirety of Christianity IS based off of Paegan rituals and beliefs. There's a whole long history lesson I could write a book on but to keep it simple I'll leave it as this: the assimilation of ideals. Most in these religions tend to ignore this or put a 'Christian Spin' on things and deny their heritage BECAUSE they associate Paeganism with 'evil' (as that's how assimilation occurred back in the day). 

As a Catholic (well.... bad catholic lol) masses are not scary, but sacred. The images are not 'gorey' but profound. We tend not to sugar coat anything and kids grow up with the real version of the crucifixion, etc, etc. In fact, if I may say so, Catholicism is pretty much the starting point for most Christian religions (as they were really the first to initiate the turn from Paeganism and took over their rituals). 


Now for the Santa vs. lying debate! I believe in a world filled with hatred, despair and dark hours we need to rekindle any light we can. Lying to me is doing so for personal gain, weaving stories for children is just envoking a profound sense of imagination and wonderment. Is it lying by reading a child a fiction book? Is Clifford the Big Red Dog a lie? Are Disney movies nothing but one big cover story for something sinister? To me children need wonderment. They need to see the magic and miracles in the world for as long as they can. Santa does not have any influence on any aspect of 'Jesus/God/etc'. Children will unfortunately see the world for what it is, why make it so that they see it's evilness sooner? 

I'm sort of like the resident storyteller of my family. I tell all the kids about Santa, the Tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, our genealogy, etc, etc. I've never had one come up to me when they grew up and accuse me of lying to them, the stories were merely a way to lighten up the world for kids. 

In fact, if I may say so, I believe that it's cruel to also lie about God and Jesus and any other religious icon. It's cruel to force a child to live by a lie and accept fiction as truth.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> In fact, if I may say so, I believe that it's cruel to also lie about God and Jesus and any other religious icon. It's cruel to force a child to live by a lie and accept fiction as truth.


 Couldn't have said it better.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Roman is a kid. I won't rattle her faith. The information is out there to read and learn.

I will repeat that if a particular faith, bedtime story, mythology gives comfort or helps you to be a good person than so be it. Tolerance. It's an amazing quality.

The bible is full of references to "turning the other cheek". Put in more modern terms...different strokes for different folks.


or as some "pagans" put it...

_*An ye harm none, do what ye will.
*
_amazingly similar to:








_"_Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.








"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.








"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6.



Tolerance 


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tolerance


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> Roman is a kid. I won't rattle her faith


She's old enough to do her own thinking, and if faith can be rattled so easily, wasn't much to start with, was it?


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I prefer THIS

1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
4. Every person has the right to control of their body.
5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.
7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations
9. There is no one right way to live.
10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

squirrelfood said:


> She's old enough to do her own thinking, and if faith can be rattled so easily, wasn't much to start with, was it?


Are you saying my faith is little to nothing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Roman said:


> Are you saying my faith is little to nothing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course not, unless it is easily shaken.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)




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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

IMHO faith is MEANT to be rattled. There is something deeply wrong if you are so steadfast in your faith and belief that you cannot even think about other ideas and incorporate them into your beliefs. 

Faith is MEANT to be shaken. It is MEANT to be broken and reformed. It is MEANT to evolve into your own personal beliefs and morals. 

It it NOT meant to simply be something you pick up to prove a point and let down again. If you cannot set aside aspects of your faith to look at others or other ideas then there is a major problem. I will never discredit someone for their faith or their lack of faith. I WILL discredit someone however, who refuses to look past their own faith and into others. 

Roman I do believe squirrelfood was referring back to the previous poster. Not necessarily you.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

I grew up believing in santa as did my siblings, parents, grandparents etc. Catholic on my dads side christian on my moms side. I grew up just fine respecting my parents and being good because that is what i was raised to be like. This year we had a lot of hard hits and my mom and I could not afford gifts, guess what Im not depressed, upset etc because I got to spend a wonderful day/ dinner with my mom who just lost her boyfriend of 9 years and I just thankful to have her. 

I don't see it as lying, just as having an imaginary friend or believing you are an animal as a small child isn't a lie. I see it as hope and imagination which a lot of people seem to lack now a days. A little cheer brought by a small tale does not bother me and my children will get to participate in the hope and cheer of santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy etc. My dad still gives us easter baskets (we are18 & 19) just because it is the fun and cheer of the holiday.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You've never seen Miracle on 34th Street? 

All the childhood tales, Santa, tooth fairy, babies being brought by the stork might well be lies but what good ones the are!

I know of no child who has felt their parents were bad for lying to them, older children, when they find out, will perpetuate the lie to keep the fun for younger siblings. 

We all lie in one form or another, a child giving a parent a gift they have made which is nothing like it is meant to be, is received with encouragement of "wow, that is very good! " is that sinful? If the truth was said, " What on earth is that meant to be? " to me would be cruel so, some lies can be good for the moral of others.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

It's all in the wording. To use the example of the gift response (Foxhunter's post), rather than say "that is very good" I would be more likely to say "It looks like you worked very hard on this" or "How nice that you spent time making this for me" - I have never told my kids that something was good when it wasn't, but I have (hopefully) never diminished the amount of effort that they put into a project. It's easier when the kids are younger; as they get to be more socially aware, it also gets to be more difficult to find the best words.

I DO know children that have/had difficulty when they found out that their parents lied to them - and it doesn't seem to matter what the lie was about. I am very, very proud to say I have never lied to my kids. When they ask difficult questions, they KNOW they will always get the truth - whether they like it or not. I know a parent who recently had some really difficult questions to answer to from his adult children and no matter what he answered, his children didn't know what to believe.

Is there a difference between lies? Not in my opinion. A lie is a lie. It's ok to tell a story, but not to make fiction sound like fact.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Yes, I agree, there are good lies and bad ones. I've said "Yeah, it looks cool" when it's not but because I don't want to hurt their feelings.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Just recently I was reading that Woden or Wotan, Germanic, was an old man with the white hair and beard who rode a horse thro the villages, leaving a small gift to children who'd been good. Nicholas took up these duties and later became known as St. Nicholas. Christmas Carols didn't begin to evolve until the 1800's. The remainder of the Christmas rituals are based in pagan beliefs, the tree, decorations, the lights, etc.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Just recently I was reading that Woden or Wotan, Germanic, was an old man with the white hair and beard who rode a horse thro the villages, leaving a small gift to children who'd been good. Nicholas took up these duties and later became known as St. Nicholas. Christmas Carols didn't begin to evolve until the 1800's. The remainder of the Christmas rituals are based in pagan beliefs, the tree, decorations, the lights, etc.


To me that's kind of a "So what?" 

Some people get a kick of the whole Santa thing. Others don't. I didn't play the Santa game with my kids, but told them that others do and to not spoil it for them. I approached it like they were in on the grown up "secret" of helping others have fun. 

There is a developmental age when little ones can begin to tell what is truth and what is fiction. I'm more concerned about what my children saw on TV, and what my grandchildren watch now than Santy Claus.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

boots said:


> To me that's kind of a "So what?"
> 
> Some people get a kick of the whole Santa thing. Others don't. I didn't play the Santa game with my kids, but told them that others do and to not spoil it for them. I approached it like they were in on the grown up "secret" of helping others have fun.
> 
> There is a developmental age when little ones can begin to tell what is truth and what is fiction. I'm more concerned about what my children saw on TV, and what my grandchildren watch now than Santy Claus.


Yepp, even though I don't believe in Santa, I won't spoil everyone else's fun.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Roman said:


> Yes, I agree, there are good lies and bad ones. I've said "Yeah, it looks cool" when it's not but because I don't want to hurt their feelings.


I don't agree that there are any good lies. You can be supportive without lying.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Dang. You mean the man I saw Christmas day in the red suite and white beard riding a draft "reindeer" down the road wasn't Santy?

Bummer...

I guess that wasn't Jesus riding the mule next to Santy....

Double bummer.


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

I grew up believing in the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, and Santa Clause.

I never questioned my parents trust for their "lies" about whether these (now)figments were real or not. I cried when I found out they weren't, but I'm not bitter about it. I still think it's neat what my parents did to make them appear "real" to me. They weren't just a "story" they talked about. Heck, Christmas Eve my parents would get on the roof and stomp around, making it sound like Santa's sleigh was on the roof. It was pretty darn cool if you ask me... 

I plan to instill the same "spirit" in my children as my parents did in me. The world is too dark and bitter as it is. I always look forward to December and the Christmas Spirit. That being said the larger presents were from the family, the small things were from Santa. (Candy and little games/toys) As much as it would be wonderful for the whole year to be giving, joyous and bright like it is at Christmas... That's a tall order for such a selfish and negative world. 

Everyone is different and handles disappointment differently, there is no answer that fits all here, IMO. Perhaps I am better equipped to handle disappointment than others, but by no means am I upset for how they chose to include the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and Santa in my life. 

That being said, I believe in the Spirit of Christmas.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

To be fair, it's not like anyone on this site would still believe in Santa xD

Of all the "lies" you could choose to question this seems like a strange (read-harmless) one to have qualms with.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Oh, but I do believe in Santa Clause.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Here is a rather famous editorial on the subject from the New York Sun, in 1897.

â€œYes, Virginia, There is a Santa Clausâ€ | Newseum


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

My kids never asked. We always did stocking and gifts from Santa and figured that at some point they'd ask and they never did. 

My kids know darn well that "Santa" gifts come from their parents but they think that by not saying anything that WE think they still believe in Santa and will keep on giving them gifts. Lil ******s think they are pulling one over on us! 

Little do they know, they'd still get the exact same stuff. 

So nope, never *lied* to them any more than they are *lying* to us by pretending they still believe in Santa!!


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

lot of parallels between the Santa myth and the Christian myth.


1. Has white hair like wool (Rev 1:14) 1. Has white hair like wool 2. Has a beard (Isaiah 50:6) 2. Has a beard 3. Comes in red apparel Isaiah (63:1-2) 3. Comes in red apparel 4. Hour of His coming is a mystery (Luke 12:40; Mark 13:33) 
4. Hour of his coming is a mystery 5. Comes from the North where He lives (Ezekiel 1:4; Psalm 48:2) 5. Comes from the North where he lives: North Pole 6. Is a carpenter (Mark 6:3) 6. Is a toy carpenter 7. Comes as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:43-44) 
7. Comes as a thief in the night. Even gains entrance to homes as a thief. 8. Omnipotent -- all powerful (Rev 19:6) 8. Omnipotent -- can deliver all the toys of the world in one night 9. Omniscient -- knows all (Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20) 9. Omniscient -- knows if every single child has been good or bad, for the entire year 10. Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Ephesians 4:6; John 3:13) 10. Omnipresent -- sees when you wake or sleep. Has to be everywhere at once to be able to deliver all the toys in one short night. 11. Ageless, eternal (Rev 1:8; 21:6) 11. Lives forever 12. Lives in men (1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16-17) 12. Lives in the hearts of children 13. Giver of Gifts (Ephesians 4:8) 13. Giver of Gifts 14. Absolute Truth (John 14:6) 14. Absolute Fable - (1 Tim 1:4; 4:7; 2 Tim 4:4) 
15. Sits on a throne (Rev 5:1; Heb 1:8) 15. Sits on a throne 16. We are told to boldly go to the throne of Grace for our needs (Heb 4:16) 16. Children are bidden to approach his throne to ask for anything they want 17. Commands children to obey parents 17. Tells children to obey parents 18. Wants little children to come to Him (Mark 10:14) 18. Bids children to come unto him 19. Judges (Rom 14:10; Rev 20:2) 19. Judges whether you were good or bad 20. Everlasting Father (Isa 9:6; Heb 12:2) 20. Father Christmas 21. Christ Child (Matt 1:23; Luke 2:11-12) 21. Kris Kringle (means christ child) 22. Worthy of Prayers and Worship (Rev 5:14 Hebrews 1:6) 22. Prayers and worship to "St. Nick" by children 23. Lord of Hosts (Mal 3:5; Isa 8:13; Psalms 24:10) 23. Lord over a host of elves - (In Druidic religion, elves are demons or tree spirits) 24. God says, "Ho, ho ... (Zechariah 2:6) 24. Santa says, "Ho, ho, ho ..." 25. Prince of Peace, the Image of God (Isa 9:6; Hebrews 1:3) 
25. Symbol of World Peace, the image of the Christmas Season

I survived the Santa tale unscathed too. Came to the realization slowly. I think my mothers handwriting on the tags and Santa's handwriting being identical clued me in. I let my sister who was 3 yrs younger figure it out herself.

There is nothing like the wonder of a small child. They are little for such a short time. Let them have the magic.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

When my parents told me, I didn't think it was a lie, because he does exist, just not the way we imagined him. He is our parents, who are real, living people, so yes, he does exist. If anything, the songs about Christmas are lies because they are the things telling us about the big fat man with the reindeer. But, I don't think it is lying, just allowing to dream. I don't think Christmas would be Christmas without all the kids believing in Santa and I for one are happy he exists.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I have lied.

I have lied to my own mother to save my husband, children, and my own sanity.

Selfish, I know.

My mother suffered my dementia bad. And the daily 'sun downing' she went through....well we all went through it....lasted usually five hours of anxiety, restlessness, 

So I lied about few things.

Eighteen months before my mother died, we finally had a MRI of her brain to determine how bad her dementia was. Basically, what was left of her brain was a little larger than a golf all sitting atop her brain stem. And even that wasn't solid; little finger like things is what really composed the brain.

So, she could no longer live by herself. I moved her to PA into my house.

The first mistake I made was when she asked for the keys to her car. I told her she couldn't; tried the logic and that failed miserably. She laid into me with feelings and words I had never heard coming from my mother. What she said about me in front of my children was horrifying and terrifying.

Shameful that some of my last memories of my mother revolve around that moment. If I had lied from the get go, her hurtful, negative words would not be a part of out last few months together. She also alienated one for her only grandkids.

Good thing she could only remember things from the years 1939 to 1994 because a few days later she asked about driving again, and I flat out lied like the oriental rugs on my floors. Told her the car was in the shop. That was my pat answer until she went comatose. She asked two three times a week. The answer was always, the car is in the shop.

Smoking was the next big lie. Six months before her death she was back in the hospital for another scan. Smaller brain and hospice was called in because the doctors said she had six months. While in the hospital she didn't smoke and at this point needed oxygen. Of course when home she wanted to smoke. I lied again and told her that she and I had quit 'way back'. She bought it and I bought her lollipops to give her something to do.

I also lied about not hearing her stories. As stated earlier she only remembered 1939 to 1994 give or take. So everyday I heard the same memories and stories. If she asked me if she had told me that story I would say, "no ma. That was a great story!"

Maybe some believe it isn't right or it is immoral to lie. But I lied to my mother to protect my children, husband, and my sanity. I also lied to give her some dignity. I knew her stories were her only way of participating in adult conversation. I think it was more moral to give her the dignity she deserved by telling her I had never heard a certain story; even though I heard the same story 100 in three days.

Logic and truth telling does not work on patients with dementia and sun downing. Even the doctors and nurses, and hospice will tell you that logic and truth telling does not work. When the dying brain is no larger than a golf ball not a whole lot of logic is going on. In fact it is called the reptilian brain.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Sarah you absolutely did the right thing with your mom. I'm sorry that one of your last memories is a bad one.

The lady who was best friends with my mom when we were growing up is suffering from dementia and it has turned her into a completely different woman. She was so gentle, kind and sweet and it's horrifying to her children the way she is now. I told her daughter that she earned the right to say every one of those cuss words that are now coming out of her mouth. She thought about it for a minute and then laughed and said "you're right". My hope in making that statement was to get her daughter to look at it from a different perspective.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

It is ok to lie if you are in Office  Is telling people that there is magic in the world a bad thing and hope


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

sarah,

you are a good daughter! you have earned SO much karma.

my mom tells the same stories all the time. drives me crazy. I am not yet grown up enough to lie to her and say that I've not heard it before. I got some growing to do , yet.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Dementia is a terrible thing no doubt. My grandmother was in an assisted living home the last bit of her life. She would tell the stories and sometimes even made up child like stories. Sometimes she would think it was the first day she was brought there and be upset, that was awful. One time she was telling me a story of years gone by, and snapped back clear as a bell. Mid sentence asked me if I came in my truck and to take her home.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Thank you JCnGrace and tiny for the kind words.

I do want to clarify at the end we had some wonderful tender and some down right baudy conversations. I could have my mother laughing that deep down belly laugh, spewing wine, with tears rolling down her face. My poor husband and children, both boys, were the butt of many of my stories and funny monologues! Which revolved about the differences between the sexes. Go figure.

The anger dissipated as the disease progressed. I believe she was angry with what was happening and losing control of her life, body, mind. The disease is hideous because the patient knows something is wrong, but as lost the ability to verbalized things.....the loose vocabulary. So out pops the anger and is aimed at the primary caregiver.

One other thing I should have lied about; her gun! Funny story!

Thank you again for the kind words.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I first doubted the Tooth Fairy. When I lost a tooth I told my mother that I didn't think the tooth fairy was real. I made her promise not to tell anyone that I was putting a tooth under my pillow.
Being artful I also said the same to Dad and Aunty Gay and Uncle Smithy. Going rate was six pence per tooth. I ended up with five times that. Each adult had slunk into my room and tucked six pence under my pillow - Uncle Smithy wasn't sure of the going rate and left double! 
In the morning I was laughing at my ruse and the adults had to laugh too. 

I wasn't sure about Santa. Parents held a party Christmas Eve, people were staying so my sister and cousin were in one bed in her room and I was on a camp bed by the window. I lay on my back listening to the church clock chime. Eventually Dad came to collect our pillow slips, I asked him if Santa had arrived. He said "No, he called to say he was running late so we will put the pillow slips by the fireplace." As he turned to leave so I said, "Dad, we haven't got a phone."

Later parents came up the stairs, both tiddly, Dad came into the room first tripped down the steps, ell forward across my bed and put his hand through the window! 

I just said "I knew there wasn't a Santa" 
He just said, "Don't tell the little ones!"
I never did.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*Sarah* you did right by fibbing to your Mom, she wasn't your Mom, just a body looking like her. 

Had you not fibbed then she would have got more upset and with incidents such as the car keys it is easier to keep the peace. 

My mother had dementia, she would have panic attacks because she couldn't remember where she lived. These could happen during the day or in the middle of the night. I would comfort her as she comforted me as a child. I couldn't leave her alone unless she was asleep because she wasn't safe. 
Luckily her dementia was not terribly bad compared to many. 

It is not easy to tend to elderly parents and, getting old I'd not for the faint hearted,


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

While I never tried to get my children to believe in Santa Claus, we did have fun with the notion. 

On Christmas Eve, right after they'd go to bed, I'd shake plastic bags any time I got near one. I'd drop a box, if one was nearby. I'd let out random "Ho Ho Ho's!" The kids would shriek and laugh.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Thank you Foxhunter.

I finally did give my mom anti anxiety medication and a heavy duty sleep aid at night so I could sleep. If I didn't she roamed around lighting the stove trying to make coffee. I also had to take the knobs off the stove.

All in all I wouldn't change a thing. It was oddly fascinating in a scientific way on one hand, horrible on the other. 

I'm sorry that you too had to witness your mom going through this. It was hard for me because my mother was such a force. A single mom in the 70's, started her own business, was very successful, and retired at 57. She was a force to be reckoned with. It was hard seeing this once dynamic woman who couldn't read any longer or understand language.

And I was right there when she passed. Actually I went to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee and she passed in the three minutes I was gone.

I apologize this has turned I to an ode to my mother. But I loved her, and still miss her daily.

I love you mom.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Certainly no need to apologize. One of the neat things here is conversation just happens.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

aubie said:


> Certainly no need to apologize. One of the neat things here is conversation just happens.


Agreed. It's nice to hear your stories and memories, sarah.


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