# Percheron/TB cross??



## Solon

The ones I've seen have looked horrible. Big head, big body, little legs/feet. I'm sure there are some good looking crosses out there though.

Do you have any pictures?


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## CecilliaB

I'll be watching this thread. I love TB/Draft crosses


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## eventerdrew

Don't let the draft cross part scare you away. There are some really nice draft crosses out there (I have one!) however, it would be impossible to tell if you have found one without pics. This cross can go very wrong.


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## Jubilee

Percheron/TBs can be great! Of course every individual horse is different. Last year I worked for a Dressage barn that specialized in breeding and training TB/Percheron crosses. These were top notch horses, FEI horses. A few were grand prix dressage horses. They all had varying degrees of percheron and TB. I had the pleasure of breaking in a young Percheron x Percheron/TB named Irwin. He is my favorite horse in the whole world. Most willing and athletic horse I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I miss him so bad.
Here is a link to that farm's website if you want to have a look at their horses: Dressage Horses for Sale

Good luck! I would love to see pictures of the horse you are looking at.

Jubilee


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## Jubilee

Sorry for double posting, I just wanted to show some great pictures of some of the horses I knew at the barn I worked at. All of these photos are taken by Jennifer Kaiser of Forrest Hill Farm and Kaiser Dressage

Portmanteau Registered American Warmblood (Percheron/TB) FEI Stallion (Sire was the late Cottonwood Flame, a USDF Grand Prix gold medal percheron) 


















Victor, another Percheron/TB bred by Forrest Hill Farm. He is also a Grand Prix winning horse. Here he is pictured with his owner Ellen Denis as she is earning her USDF Gold Medal



























Here is Bret, another Forrest Hill Percheron/TB. He is about 90% blind and yet he is still one of the most talented dressage horses I have had the pleasure of knowing.









Of course, not all Percheron/TBs are going to be like theses ones, but I just wanted to show you how great they can be.

Jubilee


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## Mercedes

hrsrdr said:


> I'm looking at a Percheron/Thoroughbred cross gelding as a possible new event horse...anyone have any experience with this cross? He is well-trained, athletic, young, good jumper, good conformation...just wanted to hear if anyone has had any success/unsuccess with this cross. :-|


If your talking training level and lower eventing, ride a camel for all it matters. If your talking Prelim and up...probably not going to work. The cross will have a too high ratio of the bulky fast twitch muscles and won't have the speed and stamina to make the CC times.


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## Jubilee

Mercedes said:


> If your talking training level and lower eventing, ride a camel for all it matters. If your talking Prelim and up...probably not going to work. The cross will have a too high ratio of the bulky fast twitch muscles and won't have the speed and stamina to make the CC times.



Please don't generalize. I can't speak specifically for the horse that hrsrdr is looking at, but Percheron/TBs can be great upper level show horses. Look again at the photos I posted. All three of those horses are exactly half percheron half TB. Cottonwood Flame was a pure percheron and he was a Grand Prix winning horse. My trainer earned her USDF gold medal on him. He is dead now, but his babies have done phenomenal in the show ring. Grant it, these are dressage horses I am talking about, I don't know a whole lot about eventing, but I do know that some of Woody's babies have gone on to be eventing horses and Woody himself spent a time as an eventing horse. 

It is true that SOME percheron crosses are going to be slow and bulky, but you can't generalize them all that way because it is just not true. I hate it when people write off a horse as a potential show horse and athlete just because they are part draft. In my opinion, Percheron/TB's can be the perfect combination for an athlete. It all depends on the individual. 

Jubilee


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## eventerdrew

^ THANK YOU!! I was about to post the same thing.

It all depends on who the parents are and what their talent/conformation is like. If the parents have poor conformation, yeah, the baby is going to have poor conformation. But it's like that in ANY breed. You can't just generalize draft crosses like that.

I have found that it also depends on the specific percentage of draft. Many half crosses are heavier, and have a worse reputation because of it. But that doesn't mean they can't go above Training! This is why many people are driven away from draft crosses, because they are grouped together as untalented and ugly. Not true of all of them!

3/4 TB 1/4 Draft is my favorite cross. It has the best of both worlds. Stamina of the TB, heart of the TB, and the kind mind and sturdiness of the draft.


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## QHDragon

Mercedes said:


> If your talking training level and lower eventing, ride a camel for all it matters. If your talking Prelim and up...probably not going to work. The cross will have a too high ratio of the bulky fast twitch muscles and won't have the speed and stamina to make the CC times.



I am sorry, you may mean well, but you seem to have a lot of very negative comments all over the forums, I think you could have come up with a nicer way to get your message out there. 

At the OP: There are some very talented draft crosses out there, not all of them are going to be bulky monsters. Check out the eventing percheron blog if you want to see a pure bred percheron doing well at eventing even. 

Some pictures of your possible purchase may help us help you a little more too. If he is well-trained and seems like a sweet horse, then I would go for it anyway, if you out grow him in a couple of years at least you got the experience with a good calm horse and can move to something bigger and better later.


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## eventerdrew

The user on the HF Promodus produces some VERY nice draft crosses. Check them out!


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## Mercedes

Jubilee said:


> Please don't generalize.


How can we not generalize? We must generalize for the sake of the discussion, or there's nothing to talk about as the answer will always be...sure, go ahead. Which is just plain bad advice.

There are always exceptions to the rule, the fact remains, the majority of F1 draft crosses are going to be too big and bulky to make the CC times. Period, end of story. If anything else was different, then the international eventing scene would be full of them and the truth is, it is not.

A handful of success stories in another discipline that requires something completely different of the horse, does not a rule make. Give me a break already.


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## hrsrdr

WHOA things seem to have gotten pretty sensitive here and it all seems to all stem from my not posting pictures of the horse...I'm very sorry everybody. It is true for every crossbreed that some unlucky individuals seem to inherit the worst of each breed, but in this case I think the gelding got the best...the power of the percheron tempered with the athletecism of the Thoroughbred. Here are links to a few videos of the horse (I believe he is 3/4 Percheron, which at first took me a little aback but he really looks like he has much more TB):

YouTube - sirjames3's Channel riding

YouTube - sirjames3's Channel loungeing

YouTube - sirjames3's Channel jumping

Since I started this thread I have actually tried him out and really liked him...he has very good, powerful movement and seems very athletic, while still a bit green.

Let me know what you think!


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## hrsrdr

Oh, and to answer your question, Mercedes, I am planning to start at the bottom of the event levels (as he is fairly green and has never competed except for a few foxhunts) so I'm planning to start him at Beginner Novice, up through Novice, roughly where I am, and then hopefully we'll both be able to go from there as high as we can!


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## danastark

He looks great to me! My gelding is a perch/paint/clyde/TB, not sure of the exact percentages but moves along very nicely and at 5, has discovered he really likes to jump! Very brave, sane horse.


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## Jubilee

hrsrdr, I absolutely love the look of him! Thank you for posting videos because I know that these will help clear the air a little. I think it would be a mistake NOT to give him a try. Especially if you are starting out at the bottom. I absolutely love his energy and cadence. He seems so quiet and willing too (as far as what I can tell from the video). I love how round he stays throughout without any head tossing. If I had to pick one thing to complain about I think I would say that his back is a little longer than my taste, but that is hard to tell from tacked riding video. But it is nothing I would worry about, especially at this level. Remember I'm also a dressage girl, we like shorter backs. I don't know what you look at for jumping. And at points he seems to be a little on the forehand, but you said yourself that he is still green. Improvement will come with time and training. From the impression I get from the video, he seems like a horse I would enjoy riding. He has the appears as though he would do well in the dressage portion too. 

He has my two thumbs up. If you like him and feel that click I say go for it!

Oh, and about the 3/4 percheron deal: it is amazing to me how that TB gene really shows through sometimes. This past summer I broke in a gelding that was 3/4 Percheron. He was the most athletic and willing horse I have ever ridden. I am pretty sure that if he stays in the right hands he is going to go Grand Prix one of these days. I think people are too quick to write this big guys off when really they can have so much to give.

Keep us posted on what you decided to do,

Jubilee


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## White Foot

My boss has one named Gwen. She did eventing with her for many years but now they do dressage.


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## maura

I think we have some basic misunderstandings here. 

First of all, the lovely horses pictured appear to be 1/4 or 1/8 draft, not 1/2.

If they are 50% draft, then they are the result of an F2 or F3 cross (Second or third generation) carefully selected for the Thoroughbred-y musclature and to closely resemble European warmbloods. 

The usual F1, Percheron/TB cross comes out much more drafty, more like a gentleman's heavy field hunter than an event horse. Of course there are exceptions, because we're talking about a cross, not a breed that runs relatively true to type. 

The OP asked a general question about suitability as a prospect, and did not mention specifics about the horse she was looking at. As such, Mercedes answer was completely correct - an F1 cross usually results in a horse too drafty to be conditioned to gallop at the speeds required at Training and above. 

If the OP's highest amibition is Novice and the occassional Training level event, it doesn't really matter, as stated. If her ambition was to compete at higher levels, than the advice she received was accurate and sound. 

I can't count the number of times in the critique section that it's been stated that conformation and/or breeding is not a signifigant concern at lower levels of dressage and eventing; that any sound, healthy horse can be conditioned and competed successfully.


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## Jubilee

Ok, this really is not worth arguing any more. I just wish people would stop saying I don't know what I'm talking about when I really do.

I posted those photos. They are of horses I know personally. I worked with them for 7 months last year. As I have said before, not all (in fact most) percheron/tbs are going to look like them or be as successful as them. I posted them to demonstrate the potential of a Percheron/TB cross. All three of those horses are in fact exactly half and half. Let me use Portmanteau as an example since he looks the least like a percheron. His sire was Cottonwood Flame, a registered black percherone stallion: Cottonwood Flame Percheron His dam was Attache, a TB mare by Caribbean Line:Attache Thoroughbred

If you doubt me then check out Forrest Hill Farm's website, they bred all three of those horses: Dressage Horses for Sale

Again, I REPEAT, not all Percheron/TBs are going to be like these horses. But they are out there. Why is that so hard to believe? 

Sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest. Please, lets let the OP direct the way this thread goes from here on out.


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## Mercedes

hrsrdr said:


> Oh, and to answer your question, Mercedes, I am planning to start at the bottom of the event levels (as he is fairly green and has never competed except for a few foxhunts) so I'm planning to start him at Beginner Novice, up through Novice, roughly where I am, and then hopefully we'll both be able to go from there as high as we can!


He'll be fine for that. I doubt he'll ever make the CC time of a Prelim course, but you're a long way from that, and may discover he excels in a different arena once you get some training into him.

Good luck and enjoy him.


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## Mercedes

Jubilee said:


> Again, I REPEAT, not all Percheron/TBs are going to be like these horses. But they are out there. Why is that so hard to believe?


Nobody said all Percheron/TBs are going to be like those horses. But posting a couple of examples, again, does not a rule make. 

I've studied draft crosses, and draft cross breeding programs (as in F1's, F2's and F3's) for years. I've bred draft crosses and experimented myself. I've owned draft crosses for years and trained them and shown them. I know what happens. I know what the horses are capable of. I know what they are not capable of.

I know what an eventing horse has to look like from a skeletal and muscular standpoint to be a 'serious' eventing horse and an F1 draft cross isn't it. An F2 'might' be it, if there's only 1/4 draft and the genetic gods saw fit to limit the expression of the draft genes. An F3 'might' be it, if the breeder knew what they were doing, was breeding for eventing, AND got genetically lucky.

Quit telling people they can fit a square peg into a round hole, just because somebody did it, once or twice. Give me a hammer and I can do it too.

With all the breed diversity out there, there's no reason to direct people to an animal that isn't designed for the job. It sets horse and rider up for frustration and ultimately failure.

If the person in question has no aspirations beyond the low levels in a discipline, then it's irrelevant what they ride, just as long as it has 4-legs, can carry them, and is sound of mind and body.


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## White Foot

Mercedes said:


> Quit telling people they can fit a square peg into a round hole, just because somebody did it, once or twice. Give me a hammer and I can do it too.


I've seen it more than once or twice in my lifetime. Hell, I work at a barn that has 20+ horses that is a TB/draft cross of some sort (my horse and an arab being the only exception). You should stop telling people that they can't work with and whittle the "square peg.":wink: 


Just because you aren't use to seeing it, doesn't mean others live in the same world as you do. No horse is ever good enough for you, every time I read your posts your always knocking something. No horse will ever compare to your horses, they must be gods with your expectations.


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## Mercedes

White Foot said:


> I've seen it more than once or twice in my lifetime. Hell, I work at a barn that has 20+ horses that is a TB/draft cross of some sort (my horse and an arab being the only exception). You should stop telling people that they can't work with and whittle the "square peg.":wink:
> 
> 
> Just because you aren't use to seeing it, doesn't mean others live in the same world as you do. No horse is ever good enough for you, every time I read your posts your always knocking something. No horse will ever compare to your horses, they must be gods with your expectations.


Wow! Once or twice in your lifetime. You're lifetime has covered, how years? 15? And wow again! 20+ horses. So, that's like 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%? And they're all competing at a top level in something other than eating? Cool. Post away: pictures, documentation of upper level accomplishments, comments about their greatness from Internationally known judges, trainers and riders. 

No worries...not holding my breath.

As for my own, anybody who knows me, is well aware I have no fantasies about anything I own. I'm as hard, if not harder on my own stock. I dissect them regularly as examples in my conformation and biomechanic clinics.


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## White Foot

Mercedes said:


> Wow! Once or twice in your lifetime. You're lifetime has covered, how years? 15? And wow again! 20+ horses. So, that's like 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%? And they're all competing at a top level in something other than eating? Cool. Post away: pictures, documentation of upper level accomplishments, comments about their greatness from Internationally known judges, trainers and riders.
> 
> No worries...not holding my breath.
> 
> As for my own, anybody who knows me, is well aware I have no fantasies about anything I own. I'm as hard, if not harder on my own stock. I dissect them regularly as examples in my conformation and biomechanic clinics.


 I'm young, 19 to be exact, but it must be more than a "few" horses, if in my short lifetime I've seen plenty of them turn out to be some of the most successful horses. Success isn't measured by every owner by going to the olympics... Can I please see the horses that you work with that measure up to your high standards? I don't think you could find a horse that would ever please you.

I won't lie or exaggerate, only one of them has qualified for Grand Prix level. But the others are VERY successful at the local shows. Not every horse owner want to compete nationally and prove something.

I'll tell you what you want to hear:
You are the best of the best, You know everything because of the clinics, You have more experience than anyone, You know everything!! and your horses are the product of a friggen Pegasus and unicorn cross... 
please :roll:


I'm not going to sit here and waste my time comparing who's bigger. Usually I wouldn't even bother responding but I'm so sick of you bashing everything and everyone. It's all you do. Why don't you sit back and take advice once in awhile instead of thinking you know what's best for every horse and rider.


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## Mercedes

White Foot said:


> I'm young, 19 to be exact, but it must be more than a "few" horses, if in my short lifetime I've seen plenty of them turn out to be some of the most successful horses. Success isn't measured by every owner by going to the olympics...


This is not a discussion about success being measured by the Olympics. The discussion is the suitability of horses for various disciplines. The discussion is about the fact you can ride a camel, a goat, a donkey, a cow, for all it matters at the lower levels, so who cares?

But for anyone who has higher aspirations, for anyone who wants to make their life and the life of their horse easier, it would behoove them to pick from the vast diversity of the equine world and choose an individual designed for the job at hand. So many behavioral issues stem from someone trying to turn a horse into something it is not designed to do.

I don't care what the OP rides, but she did ask about this specific horse for a specific discipline and I'm telling her, that if she wants to do more than fool around with her horse in eventing, she's picking the wrong type of horse. The decision then becomes her's based on her ultimate goals. 



> Can I please see the horses that you work with that measure up to your high standards? I don't think you could find a horse that would ever please you.


I own my horses for reasons you can't possibly fathom.



> I won't lie or exaggerate, only one of them has qualified for Grand Prix level. But the others are VERY successful at the local shows. Not every horse owner want to compete nationally and prove something.


Exactly, so who cares? That was never the topic of the discussion.



> I'll tell you what you want to hear:
> You are the best of the best, You know everything because of the clinics, You have more experience than anyone, You know everything!! and your horses are the product of a friggen Pegasus and unicorn cross...
> please :roll:


Darling, you haven't the first clue, but in another 20 years you might. When I was your age, I'd already done a two-year apprenticeship with a Hall of Fame trainer, written a 3hr government test to become a licensed trainer, and was running a racing stable. 

I doubt there's anything you could tell me about horses that I don't already know or have forgotten, but I'm all ears, just in case.



> I'm not going to sit here and waste my time comparing who's bigger.


Sure you will, but that's okay. 



> Usually I wouldn't even bother responding but I'm so sick of you bashing everything and everyone. It's all you do. Why don't you sit back and take advice once in awhile instead of thinking you know what's best for every horse and rider.


You're entitled to that opinion and to express it. As long as you feel better, that's all you need to worry about.


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## Jubilee

Stop, lets just stop NOW. Ok? This isn't worth it. Lets just agree to disagree. Ok? This is just stupid.

Hrsrdr, if you want a horse to do novice eventing and lower level dressage, I think that Percheron/TB would be great for you. You may or may not be pleasantly surprised by him and might be able to go even further with him. If so, yay for you, if not you need to be willing to face the fact that someday you might have to get a different horse to progress further. 

Okay, can we agree on that previous statement? If so, lets leave it at that. 

Hrsrdr, I really want to know if you end up getting him and if you do I would love to hear more about him. But I would highly advise that you end this thread now because it is going no where good fast. Post all further info on another thread.... I'm so sorry this got so out of hand. 

Jubilee


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## Mercedes

Jubilee said:


> Stop, lets just stop NOW. Ok? This isn't worth it. Lets just agree to disagree. Ok? This is just stupid.


What is stupid? A vibrant debate? Never stupid, imo. Or the personal digs? I don't care. I don't make decisions based on what others think of me.

It's an apples and oranges discussion. If everyone could stay on the apple tree there wouldn't be an issue, but for some reason people want to get all emotional and illogical and pop over to the orange tree and try to make it an apple tree.



> Okay, can we agree on that previous statement? If so, lets leave it at that.


No, on principle alone, I won't, unless it's your presidential acceptance speech. :wink: It's specifically written w/o commitment. Most people are going to love the approach you take. It's not me.


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## centrestableswendy

If you don't have anything to say to the OP that is going to help her with the decision on this potential horse, I am pretty sure that the need for you to post on this thread is OVER. This arguing is completely unnecessary and immature on all levels, so please stop.


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## Mercedes

centrestableswendy said:


> If you don't have anything to say to the OP that is going to help her with the decision on this potential horse, I am pretty sure that the need for you to post on this thread is OVER. This arguing is completely unnecessary and immature on all levels, so please stop.


Pardon?

How about taking your own advice? I have actually provided information for the OP on her potential horse. But I don't recall seeing you post anything?


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## centrestableswendy

I didn't post anything because I had nothing of value to add. I chose to read this thread to help me get information that could possibly be beneficial to myself in the future. Once you said what you had to say, that should have been the end of it. Almost 2 full pages of arguing with someone else isn't helping the OP in her decision making. And no, I'm not a "teenage know-it-all" looking for a fight. I'm a responsible member of this HF looking for useful information.


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## eventerdrew

So, back to the original and most important topic... The horse.

I think he is lovely! I would definitely go try him out. He looks like he has a lovely expression on his face, enjoys his job, and has a nice way of going. No reason why you couldn't do events on him!

I love draft crosses. With the right training, I have no doubt that my girl could go Prelim or above (which is why I am selling her, to give her that opportunity). Just go see what works for him, and go for it! There's no harm in trying.


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## Mercedes

centrestableswendy said:


> I didn't post anything because I had nothing of value to add.


Again, then perhaps taking your advice would be, um...advisable? If you can't do what you preach...well, yeah...not much more to say about that, eh?



> I chose to read this thread to help me get information that could possibly be beneficial to myself in the future. Once you said what you had to say, that should have been the end of it.


Well, thank you for letting me know when you thought I should be done. 



> Almost 2 full pages of arguing with someone else isn't helping the OP in her decision making. And no, I'm not a "teenage know-it-all" looking for a fight. I'm a responsible member of this HF looking for useful information.


If you find it of no use, then skip the posts, as I'm sure the OP also is entirely capable of doing as well.


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## White Foot

Mercedes said:


> You're entitled to that opinion and to express it. As long as you feel better, that's all you need to worry about.


 Unlike you I don't need to prove anything. I know what I have and haven't done and I don't need to brag about it. I just find it funny that you, an experienced grown woman has (and would lower herself) the need to argue with complete strangers over the internet. 
With all your experience and knowledge why do you waste your time on this horrible site full of people who don't know anything? I mean don't you have sophisticated things to do? Why on earth would you want to spend your time with people and horses that are so far underneath you? 

You're right as always and yours is bigger! Congratulations! You win! 

Why is it again that you have worked with all of these amazing trainers, horses and know everything about horses but yet no one knows your name?


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## hrsrdr

Hey, you guys, can we PLEASE just stick with the horse I'm talking about? I understand how it was an issue at first, as nobody knew the exact horse, but now that I have posted videos of him can we stop arguing about the successes of draft/TB crosses? Both sides have been brought up and discussed, about how some turn out too drafty to be very athletic, and how some make great competitions, so why do we have to go on about it? The discussions are really getting too personal and aren't helping. I need advice on THIS horse.

That said, you guys all seem to agree that he'd be fine for Training and lower, but I'm looking for a horse that can hopefully go at least Prelim. Do you think he has the potential to possibly go that high (based on him as an individual, NOT on his breed)? I know it's hard to tell, with the limited amount he's done, but based on experience do you think this type of horse could go there?


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## Mercedes

White Foot said:


> Unlike you I don't need to prove anything. I know what I've and haven't done and I don't need to brag about it. I just find it funny that you, an experienced grown woman has (and would lower herself) the need to argue with complete strangers over the internet.
> With all your experience and knowledge why do you waste your time on this horrible site full of people who don't know anything? I mean don't you have sophisticated things to do? Why on earth would you want to spend your time with people and horses that are so far underneath you?


See, I knew you were full of it when you proclaimed: *I'm not going to sit here and waste my time comparing who's bigger. *You couldn't help yourself then, and you can't help yourself now. Just let me know when you're finished having your tirade.


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## eventerdrew

OP, from the video posted, it is kind of hard to tell. The jumps are fairly small and we don't get to see him on XC. But he is a very nice horse!


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## Mercedes

hrsrdr said:


> Do you think he has the potential to possibly go that high (based on him as an individual, NOT on his breed)? I know it's hard to tell, with the limited amount he's done, but based on experience do you think this type of horse could go there?


No.

He simply does not cover enough ground, nor does it appear as though he'll have the scope. He also has a higher ratio of fast twitch muscles than is ideal for the distance phase of the sport. I'm also not convinced that he has the range of motion in the forelimb to bring the knees to the chin to be a safe CC jumper once the jumps get bigger.

It seems you like him a lot, and he appears to be the right sort to get a rider started in a safe and fun manner. That alone is worth a lot and should be considered. It'll take you a number of years to work your way up to the Prelim level anyway, and if he's a solid, safe mount before then, even if you end up needing more horse that's put together a bit differently, this one would be worth a lot to another new up and coming rider who's learning and needs a safe and fun mount.


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## Jubilee

Mercedes said:


> It seems you like him a lot, and he appears to be the right sort to get a rider started in a safe and fun manner. That alone is worth a lot and should be considered. It'll take you a number of years to work your way up to the Prelim level anyway, and if he's a solid, safe mount before then, even if you end up needing more horse that's put together a bit differently, this one would be worth a lot to another new up and coming rider who's learning and needs a safe and fun mount.



This I agree with. 

Are you already riding in at the Prelim level yet? If not then I say go ahead and get him and go as far as you can with him. The work you put in him will carry over to his next owner and will make him more valuable then he is at this moment in time. I am a dressage rider and will not pretend to know anything about eventing. I can't tell you how far he might go in eventing. But I still think he MIGHT be able to go far in Dressage if you decided to go that direction. Probably not Grand Prix, but 3rd and 4th maybe, if you put the right training into him. Are you having your trainer look at him as well? If possible, it would be good to have your own trainer come out and see him so that they can give an in person professional opinion.

Jubilee


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## Eli

Mercedes, can you please explain the fast twitch muscles. Many years ago I had a trainer explain it to me as if horses were either greyhounds (long thin muscles) or potatoes (short wide muscles). Am I on the right track? 

I'm not sure I understand it correctly, she also spoke about peoples muscles the same way and finding their optimum ride matching potatoe with potatoe, greyhound to greyhound.


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## Eli

hmmm I spelled potato wrong. I know that there can be pototoes or greyhounds within each breed. Arabs are probably a good example of that. So I think I'm way off track. My arab for sure has short wide muscles, but many have long thin muscles.


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## Mercedes

Eli said:


> Mercedes, can you please explain the fast twitch muscles. Many years ago I had a trainer explain it to me as if horses were either greyhounds (long thin muscles) or potatoes (short wide muscles). Am I on the right track?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand it correctly, she also spoke about peoples muscles the same way and finding their optimum ride matching potatoe with potatoe, greyhound to greyhound.


The fast twitch muscles are the big, bulky ones...your 'sprinter'...think QH, 100yard dash.

The slow twitch muscles are the long, leans ones...your' distance runner'...think Arabian endurance horse, marathon runner.

Big, bulky muscle for pure power and explosiveness...long, lean muscle for endurance and stamina.

The trick to eventing is getting a horse who has the right balance. For so many years the emphasis has been on the CC phase and before they took roads and tracks out, it was really important your horse be quite TB'y and racy, or they'd never make that phase. 

I have gentlemen friend in Scotland who's evented for forever, and he's adamant that the event horse be picked based on it's ability to do the CC phase well. His reasoning for that is, you can die on the CC course, therefore the horse better be suited for it.

To be fast also requires a horse to push themselves along on their forehands, so again, racy conformation is better for this.

Dressage requires the opposite. An uphill, off the forehand way of going, where the horse carries themselves on their haunches. The dressage horse has to be explosive and powerful, to obtain the impulsion and self-carriage required.

Stadium is a mix of both. It requires the engagement of dressage to bascule over the fences, the power to propel over the jumps, but also reach and scope, and an inherent need to be tidy.


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## hrsrdr

Thanks for your input, everybody. Just a couple of things I'm still wondering about : Mercedes, how can you tell what kind of muscle he has just by looking at him? I'm not trying to be demanding, just curious. When I tried him out, he had very good muscle tone, probably mostly coming from his Percheron side...and I doubt Percherons have the "fast twitch" muscle because they are meant to pull, hard and steady. If anything, I think it would be the other way, and he would have more of the "big, bulky" muscle, right? :/

And yes, I am working at some Prelim and 2nd level movements right now. One thing I should tell you about this horse...the videos don't do him justice. Mercedes, you said you don't think he has enough length of stride...honestly, I have never ridden a horse with this much stride for his size. He has the BIGGEST trot I've ever ridden, and has a big-strided walk and a "rocking horse" canter too. Just thought I'd point that out...you really can't see it too well in the videos.

Is there anything else about him that anyone noticed? My trainer is going out to see him again with me sometime soon, and help evaluate him.


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## hrsrdr

Mercedes said:


> No.
> 
> I'm also not convinced that he has the range of motion in the forelimb to bring the knees to the chin to be a safe CC jumper once the jumps get bigger.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is an exact concern of mine and of my trainer's too...she thinks, though, that it is probably attributed more to the fact that some of the bigger horses don't bother to bring up their knees well over lower fences then that he isn't going to be able to jump higher. When she goes out with me to see him, she is going to put him through a freejumping chute with a jump at least 3'6" to see how he handles it. Honestly after riding him, though, I think he is plenty athletic to make the bigger fences. I'll take a video and show you guys, though, so you can help evaluate too! Thanks so much everybody for your advice...keep it coming!


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## kevinshorses

Eli said:


> hmmm I spelled potato wrong.


You could be vice president!!!


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## Jubilee

I am glad to hear that you will be bringing your trainer out to check out the horse. They will be able to help you more than anyone. Trust what they say since they know your skills and goals better than any of us ever will.

Good luck,

Jubilee


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## Mercedes

hrsrdr said:


> Thanks for your input, everybody. Just a couple of things I'm still wondering about : Mercedes, how can you tell what kind of muscle he has just by looking at him? I'm not trying to be demanding, just curious. When I tried him out, he had very good muscle tone, probably mostly coming from his Percheron side...and I doubt Percherons have the "fast twitch" muscle because they are meant to pull, hard and steady. If anything, I think it would be the other way, and he would have more of the "big, bulky" muscle, right? :/


No, drafts have the big, bulky fast twitch muscles. Have you ever seen a plowing match? Quick, explosive pure power. That is required to get the plow moving. The slowness of the work allows for the muscles to clear out the lactic acid. Speed over distance is what kills the big, bulky muscled horse, that's why QH's only race sprints. An endurance horse with the long, lean slow twitch muscle (Arabian) goes at a good clip (but farm from top speed) for mile after mile after mile...can't be done by a big, muscled horse. 

How can I tell? Look at him...he's not lean muscled like a TB or an Arabian. He's big, bulky muscled like a draft...not as big and bulky because he's not a purebred.

Here's a website link that breaks it down into more technical terms concerning oxygen use etc... 

Note where it says fiber type and performance, that Olympic human sprinters have been known to have upwards of 80% fast twitch compared to a marathon runner having 80% slow twitch. 

It's also interesting the speculation that training can cause the ratio of fast twitch and slow twitch fibres to change.

Fast and Slow Twitch Muscle Fibers




> One thing I should tell you about this horse...the videos don't do him justice. Mercedes, you said you don't think he has enough length of stride...honestly, I have never ridden a horse with this much stride for his size. He has the BIGGEST trot I've ever ridden, and has a big-strided walk and a "rocking horse" canter too. Just thought I'd point that out...you really can't see it too well in the videos.


You don't do CC in the trot or the walk. You do it at the canter, and he doesn't cover a lot of ground in the canter in this video. I've also never heard an event rider talk about their horse's canter as being 'rocking horse'.

I can only base my opinions on the information you provide and to me, he says much more dressage horse and/or stadium jumper.


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## EllaEnchanted

Well it seems everyone is leaning towards you not getting him but I think he is a cutie! Might be a fun project to try, As you said hes very green and that could be why hes not getting over the fences the way you'l like. I had a full percheron mare who trotted over anything 2 feet and under when she first started over fences. Then I got to free jumping her and not only did she have AMAZING tuck , she could clear 4 feet! ( free jumping) Also we used to race with the other boarders. We raced a tb and an stb across a feild and won by a mile, we did it quite a few times in a row and won everytime ha ha! We were all pretty surprised with her. 

Now I own a tb/percheron colt that was being sold as an eventing prospect. Im probably going to use him for hunter over fences but he probably could've gone eventer. I think throwing muscle type, and conformation aside I love the personality of the draft cross, and the horse you are looking at specifically seems very laid back an relaxed in the ring.  Good luck with your decision.


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## hrsrdr

Thanks so much everybody for your excellent comments...it helped a lot! We are going to try to arrange a lease the horse for a few weeks, and in that time will freejump him and go cross-country to get more of an idea to see what he can do.
I will keep you updated!


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## hrsrdr

Okay, thought I'd give an update...we decided not to buy him, as he has a very nervous personality and is a bit overpriced in our opinions. Thanks so much everybody, though, and keep an eye out for my next post...we are looking into a DWB x TB mare that is a cribber. I have never owned a cribber so if she vet checks clean, I am probably going to need advice!


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## draftrider

I would not go out and buy a cribber. It is a vice that can cause a lot of problems. There are some awesome horses out there, and prices are lower than ever right now- find something that works for you that doesn't have a major issue!!!

That said- I am sorry that this gelding did not work out for you. There is nothing more exhilarating than a gallop on a 2000 lb horse!!


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## franknbeans

Agree totally draftrider! Had one that "cribbed slightly"......controlled with a wonder collar, until the wondercollar caused him to pass out and get hurt....yes-he stretched funny and cut off the circulation to his brain.....NEVER AGAIN!


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## draftrider

Say if you want some help looking for a good horse that would fit your needs, why not post your general location and your specifications- price, height etc- I bet people here would love to help scour ads and find horses for you. I know I never need an excuse to look at good horses!


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## hrsrdr

haha I can see that coming from a draft rider. This horse is perfect for us, though...german trained in dressage, highly experienced eventer, sweet temperment, and EXTREMELY low price because the owner is in a tough situation. She just has to wear a Miracle Collar and be on a digestive supplement. We've done a lot of thinking and have decided that if she passes the vet exam next Tuesday we'll probably buy her despite the cribbing; my trainer is of the same opinion. Although what type of problems are you talking about? I know about the gas colic, uneven wear and possibly broken incisors...but she is on the supplement for the colic and has her cribbing strap; we can also get bad-tasting stuff to spray on all surfaces in her run and stall to discourage her fastening her teeth on anything, right? Is there anything I'm not considering? (If this goes too long I'll probably start another post on it...this thread is already like 5 pages long...)


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## hrsrdr

Oh, just saw the last page on the thread...that is a really good idea, draftrider, about the posting a wanted ad HERE...never thought of that. If this mare doesn't work out, maybe I will do that!


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## draftrider

A Close Look At Horse Cribbing

Cribbing is more than just an obnoxious habit that can damage your property; it is a vice that can create long-term health problems for your horse. The most obvious health issue for cribbers is their teeth since the constant grinding of teeth against wood, plastic or metal wears them down at an abnormally quick pace. A long-term cribber can grind his front teeth down so low that a gap exists between the upper and lower teeth even when the jaw is completely closed. 
It is also commonly believed that cribbing can ultimately lead to an increased chance of colic, flatulence and digestion problems due to the air that is swallowed. For this reason there are some equine insurance companies that will refuse to provide insurance to a horse that exhibits this vice; they don't believe the increased risk of health issues is worth it.


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## draftrider

That said, cribbers many times benefit from being OUTDOORS, not stalled, most IMO develop the habit from being bored and stalled constantly. A stall, no matter how beautiful and well decorated, is still a prison cell hardly larger than the horse. It would be if you or I lived in our bathroom with a little mini fridge. Sure, our needs are met- we can eat, we can go to the bathroom, there is a roof over our heads. But after a few days, you or I would likely start getting very bored to the point of stir crazy, and this is what our horses go through too. Its just TOO MUCH and they do stuff to alleiviate the boredom. Windsucking releases endorphins that get the horse high... so lets say we are sitting in the bathroom with a mini fridge smoking marijuana. Sure, you are locked up, but who cares right? You have a good case of the giggles and everything is fine as long as the little fridge is full.

So if you DO get this mare, get her turned out into a small herd of horses as much as possible. I bet with time, the collar can come off. Give her things to do to stimulate her body and soul.


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## Jessabel

I knew one Perch/TB, and he was absolutely one in a million. He was an ex-dressage horse, I think in his late 20's. He was gorgeous, docile, bombproof, and gentle as a kitten. I got to ride him once, and it was like sitting on a big, comfy couch. There was nothing I didn't like about him. 

Here's a picture. It was taken a couple years before he passed away.









I really want a draft cross someday. Preferably one exactly like him. =) If you have a chance to get one, go for it.


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## hrsrdr

Draftrider...thanks for the info. The mare didn't actually pass the vet exam (apparently there is something wrong with her lower tendons in her RH, possibly an old bow) but we are looking at another TB gelding who is also a cribber, although much more mildly. From what you said, I was careful about inquiring about his health, but apparently he has never colicked or in fact had any health problems aside from a stone bruise. You think that cribbing will go away in time if the horse is given enough pasture time? He will be in a fair sized group pen with meals twice a day and a minimum of 4-6 hours of grazing.

Jessabel...we actually decided not to get this horse, as he had a very nervous personality (probably from being abused at one time in his life) but if we encounter any other draft crosses I will keep your post in mind!


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## horses4lifelol

A percheron tb woud be awsome for a eventer


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## cakemom

The horse I ride is perchxthor and he's awesome. He's not perfect conformation but he is awesome in personality and will work hard as day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xan2303

I AGREE!!! some draft crosses are very pretty and very talented!!!


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## DQ77

Hi, just wanted to comment, I had an absolutely wonderful Perch/TB cross, competed very successfully all the way to FEI Intermediare 1. Just like any breed or cross, there are some very nice ones out there and some not so nice- but I have seen several Perch/TB crosses since I lost mine in 2007 and they all seem to have the same super work ethic that mine had- very willing and trainable. That alone accounts for a huget amount in my book. I would love to find another one.


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## GreyRay

kevinshorses said:


> You could be vice president!!!


****, the first thing that came to mind when she said that was "Clinton"


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## horses4lifelol

I love the draft tb cross.I now a Clyde tb and percheron tb cross.they are the best!!!!


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## missaria

ik this post is old but it seems we have people with good opinions so i hope you dont mind me asking, could someone help me look into this horse's potential? Prelim on xc would be nice but i think i might be more interested in the jumpers. not quite sure yet. lol
any input? there's a vid too. he's 3/4 thoroughbred 1/4 percheron 16.3hh


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## missaria

here are the pics


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## BecArabian

ive never expeirienced with one but would be a good sports horse combination
dressage mostly


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## catac0rny

I actually have a similar question! I am looking at this adorable mare which just so happens to be a dradt cross. im planning on doing jumping and trailing and maybe a little bit of low level cross country. Does she looks slow and bulky to you or just the right amount of heavy? http://www.horseclicks.com/img/adph...n-tb-mare-for-sale_photo_1_1391790835_big.jpg


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## Kimberly Gamba

hrsrdr said:


> I'm looking at a Percheron/Thoroughbred cross gelding as a possible new event horse...anyone have any experience with this cross? He is well-trained, athletic, young, good jumper, good conformation...just wanted to hear if anyone has had any success/unsuccess with this cross. :-|


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## Kimberly Gamba




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## Kimberly Gamba

Funny I don't find them at all as someone on this thread suggested. Meet Kona, area 8 champion 3 years running Percheron/TB cross. She jumps like a dream, pads the landing and is amazing in the dressage ring.


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## jaydee

This is a thread from 2010 so the OP is unlikely to still be wanting responses

Thread closed


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