# Does this look safe?



## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

This is a PC-simulation model of a stagecoach. The coach offers excursion rides in modern times. Notice the coach is very close to a high cliff: about 50 feet high above the railroad tracks below. The only barrier is an ordinary barbed-wire fence that is used to keep wild animals from gong over the cliff. 

If I were a company offering excursion stage rides I might have modern safety features:

1. fence posts along the cliff edge that are steel and are driven deep into the ground with wooden exterior coverings so the psts look like ordinary fence posts to the casual observer: I would have these constructed at my own expense at the person of the property owner my route was situated upon unless I owned the land myself UNLESS you feel it prudent to have a tall brick or stone wall along that dangerous cliff edge instead as a strong safety barrier

2. the passengers and driver would wear seat lap belts: they would be installed on the vehicle

3. there would be a system by which the coach brakes could be applied instantly in an emergency and release the horse team from the vehicle instantly as well: an emergency could be horses that spook out of control: I don't know if horses are stupid enough to run off a cliff, however

My excursion ride outfit would not have releases for people to sign: I would have a good insurance policy for liability and exercise sound safety measures.

What are some thoughts here for companies who offer rides to the public in nostalgic-looking horse-drawn vehicles in modern times in regards to customer safety? 

http://i64.tinypic.com/2i0wwk.jpg


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

jonbailey said:


> This is a PC-simulation model of a stagecoach.



Think this is enough said....


Fake and a PC game experience... _a simulator!_


Wanting to keep as authentic as possible, you truly think in the times of stagecoach and horse drawn they had steel pilings and all those "safety" features? :|
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> Think this is enough said....
> 
> 
> Fake and a PC game experience... _a simulator!_
> ...


No, but I want to simulate a _modern-day_ stage ride service. Do you think the stagecoach rides at Knott's Berry Farm lack modern safety features? 

I do know from watching cowboy films that some old coaches could be quickly disconnected from the horses to prevent a runaway. Pulling a pin or lever or something. People have been killed in carriage wrecks.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

In some things there is more danger in installing those safety features than leaving them off...
Ever been to Disney?
Ride their trams, the trains, their refurbished authentic looking horse-drawn vehicles or old cars, double-decker bus?
They have safety features you bet...
But none of them take away from the time period or are seen...


Seat belts on the driver and shot-gun rider...so dangerous to be strapped on and can't move.
Passengers tied in physically...heck no...
A reinforced frame and doors that latch closed and lock so not accidentally opened but pull a latch and out you go...
Safety features in abundance besides those obvious ones, but time period relative you keep in looks.
:runninghorse2:...


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> In some things there is more danger in installing those safety features than leaving them off...
> Ever been to Disney?
> Ride their trams, the trains, their refurbished authentic looking horse-drawn vehicles or old cars, double-decker bus?
> They have safety features you bet...
> ...



I've got it! A high (8 foot) masonry wall along the cliff edge!! The masonry makes it look old-fashioned. No way are the horses going to crash through a solid stone wall. Hopefully, they won't balk at going along side the wall.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

You'd defeat the purpose of going on the ride. It isn't just about being in a stage coach or wagon but also the views that one would see. Choose a safer route. There are many wagon tours that go through mountainous areas and the only safety features that I have seen are low railings on dangerous curves same as highway driving. The liability waivers are there for a reason. Horse activities are inherently risky. A realistic interpretation would have a waiver. HLG hit all the other high points. The horses in a reliable business would be the been there and done that teams and drivers would not be careening around curves intentionally. You want a ride like that you go get on a roller coaster.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

You do know that seat belts prevent passengers from being thrown through the windshield in case of a collision...somehow I don't see a horse running you into a wall. Safety equipment has to be seen in context, that's why they don't have fire extinguishers next to a swimming pool.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> You'd defeat the purpose of going on the ride. It isn't just about being in a stage coach or wagon but also the views that one would see. Choose a safer route. There are many wagon tours that go through mountainous areas and the only safety features that I have seen are low railings on dangerous curves same as highway driving. The liability waivers are there for a reason. Horse activities are inherently risky. A realistic interpretation would have a waiver. HLG hit all the other high points. The horses in a reliable business would be the been there and done that teams and drivers would not be careening around curves intentionally. You want a ride like that you go get on a roller coaster.


Here is an improved high barrier system that provides good protection against accidental cliff falls with a good view over the cliff. I will never get on board any vehicle when a waiver of liability is demanded of me as a paying customer. I would never transport passengers with a waiver requirement out of good conscience. If I couldn't afford insurance, I would not operate such a business. The only time I signed a waiver was with a deer hunting guide but I had medical insurance and good sound gun training. Would you get onboard a commercial airliner where they presented you with a waiver to sign? 

On my PC simulation, the simulated horses go around that turn by the cliff at only 4 mph. The software won't allow the simulated coach to travel any slower. 

http://i67.tinypic.com/2gwx3yt.jpg


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Here is another idea for possible barriers. I don't know if this would meet modern safety regulations, but it was common along highways in the mid 1900's when common sense had priority over protecting people from any possible injury. Simply place strategically spaced large rocks (boulders?) along the shoulder of the roadway.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

You'd get laughed out of town for any of this stuff. A release of liability is a no brainer, the insurance co would insist you have one. As the various walls and such......no. The driver is a good enough driver to avoid going off the cliff, most horses wouldn't jump off the edge.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

jonbailey said:


> Here is an improved high barrier system that provides good protection against accidental cliff falls with a good view over the cliff. I will never get on board any vehicle when a waiver of liability is demanded of me as a paying customer. I would never transport passengers with a waiver requirement out of good conscience. If I couldn't afford insurance, I would not operate such a business.



You obviously have never read the small print at any venue where you rode any ride or people moving equipment...
There is a liability waiver at all places, called protecting your business. Your purchasing a entrance ticket is your acceptance of that liability...

I can't imagine your insurance cost if your business assumed all liability for any injury...it isn't only gross injury but simple things like a small cut, a stubbed toe because someone wore the wrong style of shoe... :|



Reality and computer generated are very different.
You refer to being on cliff edge then no guardrail system can be in place on cliff edge...
Removed several feet back from a edge, then yes, if you want walls and barriers it can be done...
If you not want to have those headaches, change the terrain or route traveled to afford safer vantage points.
You pick your animals and mode of transportation based on terrain...
Pack trains or mules rode cliffside, not normally stagecoach...they rode the wider ascending and descending mountain trails.
Just in what you describe wanting to do, a stagecoach to me impacts your ability to see the countryside beauty...
I've done part of the Grand Canyon Trail, aka The Bright Angel Trail...
I can't imagine the beauty lost sitting in a stagecoach with small windows, roof and other passengers all moving around trying to see just like you or me...
Then make me wear a seatbelt.:icon_rolleyes: _not happening!_

Now put me on horseback/mule and let my wandering eyes see what they can see...
Cliff edge _*is *_spectacular.
I've ridden through The Badlands, Arches, Zion, The Tetons, Yellowstone, Acadia, Petrified Forest, Bryce Canyon are just a few of the National Parks I've been blessed to see and there are a lot more.
There is just_ no way _you could see that beauty from a stagecoach..not like astride.
Maybe a stagecoach ride going through the old gold-mine towns with "working" equipment, a stage depot and the town lodging, saloon and eatery might work better for a adventure. 

The famous bank-robbery scene unfolding with you part of it...

Lots of old abandoned mining towns still exist in this country and some are even recreated for tourist attractions in many locations today.
Just a thought...
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I think if you want this much safety and aren't comfortable having people sign a waiver of liability, and if you are a customer who is not comfortable riding along after signing said waiver - a stage coach business/excursion is not for you.


Personally, I'm tired of people trying to wrap everything in bubble wrap. I can't stress enough how tired I am of it.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Look! No seatbelts!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jonbailey said:


> This is a PC-simulation model of a stagecoach. The coach offers excursion rides in modern times. Notice the coach is very close to a high cliff: about 50 feet high above the railroad tracks below. The only barrier is an ordinary barbed-wire fence that is used to keep wild animals from gong over the cliff.
> 
> If I were a company offering excursion stage rides I might have modern safety features:
> 
> ...



Wait a sec.


I just saw what I bolded.


May I inquire as to why, if you don't even know THIS about horses, would you consider trying to run a stage coach excursion outfit?


What I underlined... The emergency brake doesn't shut the horses down. They can and will drag a coach or a wagon until it lays over on it's side.


Having reread everything you posted here, I have serious concerns. IF you put this motion, this seems like an accident looking for a place to happen.

Are you thinking you can set the company up, then rely on people/horsemen who actually know what they're doing? I'm trying to understand the mindset here.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@AtokaGhosthorse this is a PC simulation. If you go to other threads the OP links some simulations he has put together. They are really interesting but the program to create can be limiting. This isn't a question of limiting programs but the "copy" that goes with in explaination.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

QtrBel said:


> @*AtokaGhosthorse* this is a PC simulation. If you go to other threads the OP links some simulations he has put together. They are really interesting but the program to create can be limiting. This isn't a question of limiting programs but the "copy" that goes with in explaination.



Ah. Got it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It's a computer simulation. Leave the 'safety features' off. None of the ones you mentioned improve safety. Safety belts in a carriage are more dangerous than being thrown clear. A quick release pin in the wagon tongue is one of those things that will come loose only when it shouldn't-- there's a reason they aren't done outside of movie sets. Brakes can help slow a wagon on a downhill grade to keep it off the horses, but it won't slow a runaway team much at all. A guard rail is worthless unless it's about 8 feet high and solid-- a panicked team will go through or over anything less. Just leave it off-- if this were an actual ride, the guests sign a waiver, the owner of the company makes sure he has the safest teams possible and the most-skilled drivers, and you hope for the best.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You'd get laughed out of town for any of this stuff. A release of liability is a no brainer, the insurance co would insist you have one. As the various walls and such......no. The driver is a good enough driver to avoid going off the cliff, most horses wouldn't jump off the edge.


I therefore cannot run a business if any insurance carrier is going to insist upon releases. It would violate my conscience. Waivers are an indication to me that the business has no regard for my life and limb. Riding on a stagecoach for fun in 2018 should not involve the same level of danger as skiing, scuba diving, auto racing, river rafting or rock climbing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jonbailey said:


> I therefore cannot run a business if any insurance carrier is going to insist upon releases. It would violate my conscience. Waivers are an indication to me that the business has no regard for my life and limb. Riding on a stagecoach for fun in 2018 should not involve the same level of danger as skiing, scuba diving, auto racing, river rafting or rock climbing.


It actually can be considerably more dangerous. All those things you bring up don't involve an animal who is normally a prey animal being under someone else's control and then having the liver & lights scared out of it. When that happens, you need a release that says you're not liable unless you can prove the operator was grossly negligent. 

I don't let anyone in my pasture with my horses, even though I KNOW they won't do anything stupid (the horses that is) unless a human does something stupid first but ..... if something scares one or startles one enough, anything can and does happen. My insurance co had me provide them with my release and then had me go over it with their underwriters and attorneys to tweak it so that it met all of my state's criteria. It doesn't mean I don't care and won't look out for my clients (if I let them get killed off though not caring, I'm not going to be very successful) and won't protect them with everything I can do to make sure everyone is safe, it just means that they understand that anything to do with horses is high risk and unless I am grossly negligent, I am not liable for an injury. I don't allow anyone to even handle one of my horses unless they're wearing a helmet, doesn't mean I don't still need a release.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Any horseback riding business makes you sign a waiver. It doesn't mean they don't care about your life and limb, it means horses are big animals that can sometimes do stupid things. AND they don't know what kind of stupid things you might do either! 



I knew a lady that ran a horseback riding business years ago. She told me they only got sued once......it was a guy that couldn't mount the horse and fell back off before he even made it on. I'm sure the waiver helped them out in that instance.


I wouldn't think twice about signing a waiver riding a stagecoach. I guess because I did that all the time when I used to ride rental horses. 



But hey, if this is only a computer simulation, why are we worried about waivers?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's my release: 

This RELEASE OF LIABILITY is made and entered into on this date: , by and between Dreamcatcher Horse Ranch, LLC., hereinafter designated as OPERATOR and , hereinafter designated as PARTICIPANT, and if Participant is a minor, Participant's Parent or Guardian , in return for the use, today and on all future dates of the property, facilities and services of the Operator, the Participant, his heirs, assigns, and legal representatives, expressly agree to the following:




Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a livestock activity sponsor, a participant or livestock professional acting in good faith and pursuant to the standards of the livestock industry shall not be liable for injuries to any person engaged in livestock activities when such injuries result from the inherent risks of livestock activities.
Oklahoma Statutes as Section 50.3 of Title 76

Notice: This Waiver shall give notice to the Participant of the risks inherent in equine activities, including (1) the propensity of an equine to behave in dangerous ways which may result in injury to the Participant; (2) the inability to predict an equine's reaction to sound, movement, persons, or animals; and (3) hazards of surface or subsurface conditions. 
















1.	Participant agrees to assume ANY AND ALL RISKS INVOLVED IN OR ARISING FROM THE PARTICIPANT'S USE OF, OR PRESENCE UPON THE OPERATOR'S PROPERTY AND FACILITIES including, without limitation but not limited to, the risks of death, bodily injury, property damage, falls, kicks, bites, collisions with vehicles, horses or stationary objects, fire or explosion, the unavailability of medical care, or the negligence or deliberate act of another person. 

2.	Participant agrees to hold Operator and all of its successors, assigns, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, directors, employees and agents completely harmless and not liable and release them from all liability whatsoever and AGREES NOT TO SUE them on account of or in connection with any claims, causes of action, injuries, damages, cost or expenses arising out of Participant's use or presence upon Operator's property and facilities, including without limitation, those based on death, bodily injury, property damage, including consequential damages, except if the damages are caused by the direct, willful and wanton negligence of the Operator. 

3.	Participant agrees to waive the protection afforded by any statute or law in any jurisdiction whose purpose, substance and/or effect is to provide that a general release shall not extend to claims, material or otherwise, which the person giving the release does not know or suspect to exist at the time of executing the release. 

4.	Participant agrees to indemnify and defend Operator against, and hold it harmless from, any and all claims, causes of action, damages, judgments, costs or expenses, including attorney's fees, which in any way arise from the Participant's use of or presence upon the Operator's property and facilities. 

5.	Participant agrees to abide by all of Operator's rules and regulations. 

6.	If Participant is using his horse, the horse shall be free from infection, contagious or transmissible disease. Operator reserves the right to refuse horse if not in proper health or is deemed dangerous or undesirable.











7.	This contract is non-assignable and non-transferable and is made and entered into the State of Oklahoma and shall be enforced and interpreted under the laws of this state. Should any clause be in conflict with State Law, then that clause is null and void. When Operator and Participant and Participant's Parent or Guardian, if Participant is a minor, sign this contract, it will then be binding on both parties, subject to the above terms and conditions. 



______________________________________________
Operator's Signature




_______________________________________________
Participant's Printed Name




_________________________________________________
Signature of Participant




___________________________________________
Signature of Parent or Guardian


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It actually can be considerably more dangerous. All those things you bring up don't involve an animal who is normally a prey animal being under someone else's control and then having the liver & lights scared out of it. When that happens, you need a release that says you're not liable unless you can prove the operator was grossly negligent.
> 
> I don't let anyone in my pasture with my horses, even though I KNOW they won't do anything stupid (the horses that is) unless a human does something stupid first but ..... if something scares one or startles one enough, anything can and does happen. My insurance co had me provide them with my release and then had me go over it with their underwriters and attorneys to tweak it so that it met all of my state's criteria. It doesn't mean I don't care and won't look out for my clients (if I let them get killed off though not caring, I'm not going to be very successful) and won't protect them with everything I can do to make sure everyone is safe, it just means that they understand that anything to do with horses is high risk and unless I am grossly negligent, I am not liable for an injury. I don't allow anyone to even handle one of my horses unless they're wearing a helmet, doesn't mean I don't still need a release.



Hi Dreamcatcher, I am not a business but I am afraid to let most people ride even my "safe" horses. That after a relative fell off (at a walk) and then complained about her back hurting. And someone you don't know......who knows what they would do if they got hurt. 

I have learned just as you cannot always predict what a horse will do, you can't predict what a person will do either! I've seen people ride right under a tree limb and get knocked off the horse. And I'm thinking......gee, I never would have thought I would have to tell someone to steer the horse AROUND the tree. Who knew? 

I would say the people are as unpredictable as the horses. It's not just the horse doing something dumb, but the people doing something dumb you have to worry about.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. To the original poster, I think your stagecoach looks fairly safe. If the horses get spooked by the train, they should run AWAY from the cliff, not towards it. You might have more problems with them running the stagecoach into a tree.



Not long ago, in the Phoenix area, a Wells Fargo stagecoach had a bad accident in a parking lot. I think the stagecoach ran into some parked cars (because horses just panic and run and don't take the vehicle they are pulling into account).


I found a video of the incident:









Also, I think the barbed wire fence is best for keeping cattle in. Wild animals just go over it or through it. :smile:


The images you posted look very cool!


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

trailhorserider said:


> PS. To the original poster, I think your stagecoach looks fairly safe. If the horses get spooked by the train, they should run AWAY from the cliff, not towards it. You might have more problems with them running the stagecoach into a tree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That coach should have a quick disconnect to release the team. The coach probably never had a routine brake inspection.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

jonbailey said:


> That coach should have a quick disconnect to release the team. The coach probably never had a routine brake inspection.



That is a very unfair statement to make about maintenance..._you don't know!!_


I also don't think having a quick disconnect would accomplish much but now a double-poled team running loose...
Brakes or not, _you still need to be able to steer your conveyance_ and you just lost that when you cut the team loose...
This video being what it is has a purposefully made coach for the sport it is used in...
Something sounds like you are trying to design...
Difference is is the one depicted is/was in operation where yours is sitting on a computer screen and no way to know the pitfalls of your design till you have it made and go for a considerable expense to go back to the drawing board...
Your ideas may seem great till practicality and does it work is applied...then the truth is told.
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:...


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

What a strange time we live in! A non horse person watches cowboy movies and thinks all the stunts are real. Sits down at a computer and makes a simulation based on no hands on knowledge. Then wants to use that as a basis for a business. But then doesn't want to involve waivers or any legal means to protect the business, the livestock and equipment, or the public. 
Why not make it a virtual reality app? Too much Jurassic Park stuff for me. 
I'm going to go hug my real life horse, this world just gets weirder every day.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> That is a very unfair statement to make about maintenance..._you don't know!!_
> 
> 
> I also don't think having a quick disconnect would accomplish much but now a double-poled team running loose...
> ...


I'm a former automobile mechanic by trade and I have some knowledge of wheeled vehicle theory. The mechanism to uncouple the tongue from the wagon could in theory trigger a device to lock the fifth wheel: the front axle pivot, so the vehicle does not weave at random. A single lever or pedal control that releases the horses could also instantly apply the emergency brake for the rear wheels. This should not be too hard to engineer. Horse-drawn carriages are very low speed in contrast to motor cars. They should not exceed 10 mph on the flats.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I gotta be honest here: I think this is the point where I'm going to have to say good luck in your endeavor, I have coffee to drink. This thread has careened right off into Weirdville.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I think you need to go back to understanding the dynamics of a horse-drawn vehicle where unhitching/hitching at the conveyance and pole is not easily done when moving, _fact._
Comparing a vehicle like a car to one where it is controlled by horses with brains... 2 or 4 in-hand as stage-coaches are designed?

Have you ever driven, handled horses more than one at a time...
Have you ever driven a team of horses?
Where and at what speeds were you traveling?
Now add all that together to your designs in reality not on some computer screen is a far different animal..._fact._
It is far different to sit astride a horse than to sit behind and control horses and carriage to do what you want...
What you see in old western films/TV series is often not real and or at the cost of the horses lives when filmed...



_I am bowing out of this topic too.... :wave:
_
:runninghorse2:...


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Jon, you _did_ say Modern. What the heck; just bubble-wrap everything and be done with it 

(edit to add these fotos from last Friday. Note the lack of guardrails, etc.)


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

george the mule said:


> Jon, you _did_ say Modern. What the heck; just bubble-wrap everything and be done with it
> 
> (edit to add these fotos from last Friday. Note the lack of guardrails, etc.)



Cowboy hats just look better than helmets when seated on ponies. 

On some coaches, one can simply release the entire tongue by pulling out a pin while on the roll.
The driver better let go of the lines before the pin is pulled, however, unless he wants to water
ski on his belly in the dirt. 

See the 1971 epic Spaghetti western film, _Duck, You Sucker!_ (James Coburn/Rod Steiger/Sergio Leone) for details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck,_You_Sucker!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@*trailhorserider* - it would be for the most realistic simulation experience possible. 



Dropping the tongue IMO would actually be more unsafe than riding a runaway out. Too many things can happen that would potentially cause greater damage and injury to all involved - horses included. 



The worst accident I have been involved in was the result of a youngster stepping over the pole accidentally and panicking in a turn and causing a runaway situation. The owner/driver was thrown completely from the surrey (held 15) and spent many weeks in the hospital, months at a rehab facility and even longer at home going to PT. She was nearly killed. Honestly I thought she was. Her injuries were massive and life threatening. Besides my injuries there were no others and we were loaded to capacity. That would not have been the result had I not been able to grab the reins and "steer". Dropping the tongue would have meant overturning or the tongue potentially going through a wheel and we'd have lost the horses to a collision with oncoming traffic. As the one that grabbed the reins I had three choices and a split second to decide. Oncoming traffic, barbed wire fencing or a row of parked cars. I chose the cars. The horses came through with minor injuries. The vehicle the 2y.o. literally landed on was smashed flat and she had to be backed off as her front legs were over the hood, body over the body and rear legs over the trunk. Her teammate took the drivers side mirror in the shoulder which was the worst done to either of them. Lots of swelling, muscle bruising and a small hematoma. No passenger sustained serious injury though there were a few bumps and bruises. Staying on the road would have put us in the path of oncoming traffic which could have resulted in serious injury or death to not just the horses but the two of us and possibly passengers. The barbed wire would have meant serious injury or death for the horses and potentially over turning the vehicle while running them into the parked car stopped forward motion. My injury was a result of grabbing the reins and not of the impact itself. The owner's injuries were the result of being thrown from the vehicle. That said there is much more danger involved being restrained than unrestrained. 



Waivers protected the owner from frivolous lawsuits. Insurance paid for the injuries and damage to both vehicles. Without the waivers the owner would have had no insurance and could have lost everything had someone sued even for minor injury. There was no gross negligence. The ride was also posted with the standard Warning sign. You can copy paste this to see an example 
*Equine Professional Is Not Liable Sign NHE-18362-Texas Recreation*


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