# What else can I do with him?



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Hey all. So my Shire yearling Thunder is ... just sitting ... and I was wondering what sort of things you driving folks do with your young horses to get them ready for harness work? Obviously he won't be driven for a while, but I know there's SOMETHING out there he can learn while we wait ...

As of today he can: lunge (walk/trot only, and we practice this about 3 times a year to keep stress on his joints down), lead well beside or behind at a walk and trot, pony, pick up all 4 feet with only a tap on the ankle, stand tied, load in the trailer, stand for grooming/bathing/fly spray/etc, yield hindquarters/forequarters, back up, step over tarps/logs/small ditches, flex to the halter (because, draft or not, I can't stand a horse that is heavy on the halter), and stand still like a gentleman while plastic bags, milk jugs filled with a few pieces of gravel, streamers, balloons, and a partridge in a pear tree are draped, rubbed, and flung onto him from all sides. 

I want him to be as prepared as possible for his driving training next year. I have spoken with his breeder about it and, after spending some time fiddling with Dreams, she has professed herself impressed with the training I've put on him, and told me that she is willing to help coach me through Thunder's driving training since I want to be very involved with it. I am so excited, I have trained a large number of riding horses through the years but this is my first driving training experience. I am absolutely confident that I can do whatever groundwork is required, whatever desensitizing is required, by myself at home, I just need to know what I should be working on. Early next year I'll start driving lessons with the breeder, and I attended a driving clinic this year where I learned the basics of putting to, driving a single and a team, etc. So by the time Thunder is ready to actually begin driving training I'll presumably know what I'm doing, hopefully. The breeder will be literally right beside me telling me what to do, so I'm not concerned there.

SO ... what sorts of things can I do with Thunder while we wait for him to grow into those long ears and legs of his? : ) What do you do with your driving prospects help them succeed in their later careers? I'm assuming driving horses get a lot of desensitizing? I was thinking of taking him for walks along the road to get him used to cars and traffic and things ... or do you advise against it? We live in a small town so the speed limit is low enough that I'll eventually be driving him along the roads here, and having a horse used to traffic is high on my list of priorities. What else can I do with him?

-- Kai


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not very experienced at driving at all, but an also 'wannabe'. I learned from some practice in lessons from a couple of experienced people who were also trainers, then I started training my own... but life got in the way & last lesson they were at the point of being confidently hooked up to the shafts of a racing sulky(so light, no weight yet, I can pick it up if it gets stuck or such) & ground driven at a walk with it. That last lesson was over a year ago though & I just haven't gotten around to it since. So, no kind of driving expert at all, just regular training, but hope it helps...

IMO, anything & everything you can do with him, towards what you want him to be good at, that's not weightbearing or 'high impact'. 

Teach him to ground drive & be controlled on lead/reins from whatever position or distance you happen to be in. Get specific so you can control him on the ground to the degree of asking any hoof to step in any direction. Side passing, backing up etc very specifically. 

Desensitise him to wearing harness, to you dragging stuff behind him. *Hope no brainer but don't attach anything to him until you're sure he's comfortable with it. You can simulate him pulling safely though, by hanging onto his traces a bit(how much/little he's comfortable with at the stage) while ground driving.

Get him out & about to experience stuff & learn to be calm, both on lead & ground driven. Get him used to wearing blinkers & the likes, if you will be using them.

I did have(have still got) an issue with one horse's turning in the shafts - he has always felt the need to step the opposite way with his hind end when turning, whether from the ground or the saddle, regardless where I am, where I'm applying pressure. Never encountered this level of 'resistance' before & I still think it could be an as yet undiscovered physical issue. Esp as he has been SO ridiculously easy in everything else he's been taught. But it took a lot to teach him to step over with just his front feet & side pass, etc, without him swinging his backside. Got him to what I thought was good enough, before hooking him to training shafts(which I hold or let drag), and he started swinging his butt on turns again, so he either pulls me/the back around when holding them, or when he's dragging the shafts, as often as not he gets 'stuck' when asked to turn.

I did start a thread way back on it & got some pointers, but mentioning it here, I hope it helps you avoid the same... & hope I'll also benefit from some other experienced posts about it!


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Yes, I was wondering if horses ever got stuck in the shafts and couldn't wrap their little brains around keeping their bodies straight while coming about. I'm sure turning stiff as a board feels at least a little awkward to them in the beginning ... 

I have been reluctant to get a harness because he's still got so much growing to do ... I wanted to be a bit eccentric and use a breastcollar for him instead of a collar which 99.9% of draft drivers use though, so I might be able to punch enough holes to fit him okay now. (At least well enough to train in anyway - although the way he's growing he'll be full size like tomorrow lol) I need to just suck it up and order him a harness. Like you said, get him used to wearing it, etc. I found a soft rubber mullen snaffle bit (soft rubber like flexible enough for me to fold in half) which I was figuring on using to get him acquainted with a bridle ... or would you suggest waiting until he can carry a regular snaffle and ground driving him in a halter until then? I've been watching a lot of Barry Hook videos on YouTube and while everyone around here is all, "MUST HAVE LONG SHANKED BIT FOR MAXIMUM CONTROL" I really like his approach. It seems more in line with the way I ride, so I think the transition will be easier for me. His whole premise is that, if a horse REALLY wants to run away with the carriage, no amount of long shanks and leverage will keep the horse from doing so, so the best way of controlling the horse is through more thorough training, not a bigger bit. Which I totally agree with.

There are plenty of things around here to let him drag around that aren't too heavy when the time comes ... railroad ties ... the mechanical cow ... tires of all sizes. There are plenty of things I can drag too, now that I think on it. I can just ground drive him holding the whatever-it-is and get him used to the sound of stuff following him ... then apply pressure on the traces ... then start having him drag stuff. I'm also quite excited to start taking him for walks on the roads. He's so mellow, I'm sure he'll be great at it. : )

-- Kai


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As for harness if he's still growing, maybe he's got too much still to do, but most are reasonably adjustable(Mine fits(with a different girth & more holes) my welsh mountain, up to my 14.3hh boy. Or you could buy some sort of cheap, second hand gear that will do for training. And you can always make do with other tack, even use ropes & such in the meantime. But if you haven't taught him to ground drive yet, all you need now is a halter, long reins/ropes & a roller(or even saddle), so you can thread reins through to keep them up.

Oh & if you haven't seen a 'brollar' that might interest you instead of collar or breastplate. I like the look of them & plan on getting one but my harness only has a breastplate.

Can't recall the city horses - I try not to look - but the only ones I know around here drive mostly for fun(one has a team, nice carriage & does weddings too) & they all use plain snaffles. I use a rope halter. I think the guy is right that said 'if they want to run away with the carriage'(altho 'want to' is not what it's about, but running in mortal fear - and in which case bit pain is only likely to exacerbate their fear/reactivity.

If your horse has already been gotten used to wearing & responding to a bit then maybe... but I'd ensure he was ground driving etc well in a halter first, personally. Remember that on those long reins, there is a lot more leverage force, so rein pressure can potentially be a lot stronger than intended.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Okay I'll see if I can't get him a harness then ... I don't really want to use something cheap to train with because he'll be bound to exert some force on the thing eventually and I don't want something crappy falling apart when I really need it not to. Even as a yearling he's already horse sized ... much bigger than my Appaloosa. And every other horse in the barn lol. So with any luck it will fit him with a little tinkering. As far as bridling goes, I'll hold off for now and just use a halter. I've never bitted a horse before they're ready to be ridden so I'm really not comfortable with the idea of a yearling in a bit. It's hanging in my tack room so it'll still be here next year. : )

-- Kai


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

They do not "turn stiff as a board " in the shafts. They bend as any horse bends. 

I would learn to long- line.....be sure the lines go through a low ring, or the stirrups on a saddle, something like that. Work him on contact, and going forward FROM the contact. Y


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry, my keyboard quit... Take a little contact, give the command, obtain the desired speed, and give, but do not release, as a reward.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

greentree said:


> They do not "turn stiff as a board " in the shafts. They bend as any horse bends.


Yep, that's my guy's prob - he IS 'stiff as a board' thru his body when he turns. While I've had 2 different vet chiros see him & a cranio sacral person(she said he was stiff all over, but could not find an underlying reason or fix it), I have not ruled out physical issues - that he's been SO easy & compliant on every other note... 

But if you do have any tips for me that might help greentree...


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

So now that I'm a bit more serious about finding a decent harness for Thunder, I have a question about the traces. A lot of harnesses I've seen come standard with the slotted traces. I don't know what kind of carriage/cart I'll be using yet. When I went to the driving clinic the trainer there used the traces with heel chains, which I kind of like since I will be driving a draft after all. But are certain trace ends better for certain carriages/carts? I'm personally leaning more toward a marathon type carriage, mostly because I like the smoother ride, but the trainer said a 2 wheeled cart is better for a young horse to learn on since they can't jackknife it? Anyhoo ... for someone who doesn't quite know what type of vehicle they'll be using, are heel chains or slotted traces better for a training harness? Personally I'm leaning more toward the heel chains .... but I don't know much about driving. I'll be using either a breastcollar or one of those hybrid brollars, since I don't care for traditional collars and I won't ever be pulling anything ridiculous. What do you guys think?

-- Kai


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Get slot end traces, and use a snap shackle on the end. Snap shackles are a must for training, IMO, allowing you just a good pull on the release to disengage. My dress harness has combo ends on the traces. You need the slots for most Meadowbrook/road carts, my forecast had a spiral pigtail type attachment(for chains), and my marathons have loops on single trees for the snap shackles(they remain attached to the carriage, not the trace).


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

loosie said:


> Yep, that's my guy's prob - he IS 'stiff as a board' thru his body when he turns. While I've had 2 different vet chiros see him & a cranio sacral person(she said he was stiff all over, but could not find an underlying reason or fix it), I have not ruled out physical issues - that he's been SO easy & compliant on every other note...
> 
> But if you do have any tips for me that might help greentree...


My standard "long lining" answer. LOL. Use the low rings on the syrcingle, which goes you a little leverage, and runs the outside line over the hocks. Get him to step to the outside by getting decent contact, then thinking of the lines as sticks, and step toward him, so that the contact stays as consistent as possible, but he moves to the outside of the "track",laterally. Be sure to wear gloves....


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

A snap shackle? Could you post a picture? Never heard of a snap shackle before, though I might have seen one .... maybe we use a different term over here.

-- Kai


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Soorry, I don't, but you can find them on google.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

So I'm deciding between these two harnesses ... I know I can probably get a less expensive harness from somewhere like Ebay but I'm super nervous about shelling out several hundred dollars and winding up with a box of rocks. For me, it's worth paying a little extra money to make sure what I'm getting is decent. But anyway ... since I live in eastern Montana and it gets really, really, really, really cold here during the winters, I'm not sure if I want a leather harness or not. The trainer I took the driving clinic with favors nylon harnesses but her horses all have work harness and I've never been a big fan of nylon. My first choice is this one (of course it's also the most expensive):

https://chimacumtack.com/product/pleasure-harness/

I have a bridle made of that Brahma Web stuff and I love it - so easy to clean and doesn't get stiff and hard during cold weather. It's super strong too. $650 is more than I really wanted to spend at the moment but eh, if it's good quality stuff it'll last fo evah so I don't mind paying a bit more for higher quality harness. Option number 2:

https://www.ronshorseharness.com/product/presidential-single-horse-harness-with-breast-plate/

That one is leather so during the winter I'll probably have to store it in the house so it doesn't get weathered. But I don't expect to do a heck of a lot of driving during the winters anyway, I'm not planning on getting a sleigh. If I remember correctly the harness I bought for Mirage when I was in high school was one of those, and I thought it was pretty well made for the price. I also like the look of the Liberty nylon harness for training:

https://www.ronshorseharness.com/product/liberty-nylon-horse-harness/

But again ... not sure if I really love nylon. It looks pretty well made, and is certainly easy on the wallet, but idk ... do you driving folks suggest I get a cheaper harness to train in before getting a "real" harness? Or should I get just one? I know I said above that I'm not enthused about getting two harnesses but maybe that's what people do when training driving horses? Above all I want to be safe, and to give Thunder the best start possible, so if getting two harnesses is the best way to do that then that's what I'll do. The nylon harnesses used during the driving clinic I attended were certainly quite strong. She demonstrated with a pair of Shire mares and pulled a railroad car using a nylon harness so I'm sure a well made nylon one would be fine for what I'm planning on using it for. 

Please, oh driving peoples, help me spend more money on my walking money pits! Lol

-- Kai


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I will give you my opinion...LOL. I despise nylon harness. I love a not so expensive biothane harness, which, LOL, proves I am not a harness snob. Leather harness is a lot of work. I can get a biothane harness around here for about $400, maybe $450 draft size.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

FWIW, there are a ton of draft horse people in our neck of the woods and they all do fine with leather harnesses in the winter. 150 years ago, everyone had leather harness in all weather. Good leather will not be affected overly by the cold-- if you're worried, keep your bridles in the house so the bits aren't as frigid. I'd avoid nylon-- it's ugly, gets stiff and breaks down with sweat and sun exposure, and won't break when you need it to but will when you don't want it to. Go with good leather or biothane. 

If you're so inclined, go to eastern Iowa to the Waverly sales sometime. Tons of draft harness, carts, and anything else you can think of for really fair prices. There are lots of people there from all over the country, including Montana, who come to buy and sell horses and vehicles and various bric a brac, so finding someone who can pick something up for you if you want shouldn't be too hard, either.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Yes @SilverMaple I was thinking the same regarding nylon. All of my tack except for one bridle is currently leather ... I like my leather and really enjoy spending a day soaping, oiling and buffing everything in my tack room. The one exception is the Brahma Web bridle I've got, which I use all the time and love. I was only interested in the nylon harness for training, but I don't want to train in a cheap POS so I'm really leaning toward the first harness. I've heard from two people around here that our 50 degrees below zero winters are hard on leather but if I really think about it I don't expect to do much driving in the deep winter anyway so I guess that's a moot point. I do think there's nothing like a fine piece of leather tack - the feel is second to none in my opinion. I'll have to check out the Waverly sale, sounds like a good place to burn a paycheck lol. From their website it looks like some cool stuff went through there this spring ... Might have to see if I can take some time off in October.
@greentree Isn't biothane that plastic-y webbing stuff? I've handled some of that through the years and I never liked the feel of it in my hands. Or am I thinking of something else? That Brahma Web stuff feels wonderful, good grip but not too much so, very flexible and smooth. I don't really care to drop $650 on a harness but it might be worth it for the nice feel and wear. 

-- Kai


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Biothane is a coated webbing. It is available in beta, which is a soft, flexible natural feel with a matte finish, and regular, which is a bit shiny, and slick.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Hate, hate, hate nylon. I'd look at a good sturdy draft size surcingle with two girths (smaller for now/larger for later)for right now to get him started ground driving. If you plan on raising more than one youngster then the least expensive way to go about it is to have someone make your harness and make it expandable. You can get two sizes of interchangeable straps with a standard sized breast collar - smaller grow with me straps and then the I'm done growing but need wiggle room for muscling up/gaining weight or fitting another horse. If you are just planning on the one, then surcingle for now and harness when closer to grown. I have both leather and biothane. The leather my husband uses at this point as I can no longer handle the weight. I have trouble with the weight of the biothane but it is lighter and was custom made to come apart easily so I can harness without help. The hames and collar are the heaviest pieces at this point and then I have three separate pieces of harness to fit together. The breast collar style is the same except that I have two pieces. My preference for ground driving is to start them in their bridle with a snaffle and then the bit I move to or use later depends on what and where they are doing/going. I don't start them with ground driving until they are two. If I started younger then a halter would be where I start. Anything on the farm or logging stays in the snaffle but put them in public and they get moved into a bit independent side motion with multi slot elbow shank. They can be driven at the bit or further down with what my old boss called brakes. Just depended on the horse and the situation. The further down the shank the lighter your hands need to be but you have more of a whoa if necessary with little pressure.


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