# The Use of Knotted Halters



## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Do you have a link for that image? When I try to enlarge it, it just gets blurry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)




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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

Every bridle and halter will sit on the horse like that I don't get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

kimberlyrae1993 said:


> Every bridle and halter will sit on the horse like that I don't get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it's not so much about how tack sits on the horse's head, but of the degree of pressure on the sensitive facial nerves. a knotted rope halter is going to 'dig in' more on a smaller concentrated area than a flat strap of leather or nylon on a regular halter when pressure is applied. this will cause more pressure on the nerves, and can equal pain for the horse if you don't know what you are doing.

to help understand, if you are a visual/tactile learner, is to take a piece of binder twine and put it in the palm of your hand and have somebody pull hard against it. hurts! now take a nylon web halter and do the same. doesn't really hurt due to the pressure being spread out further across the nylon strap.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I used a knotted sidepull rope halter for 3 years on Mia & Trooper. It didn't give much control over the nose, but the only time it seemed to hurt them was when Mia spent 2 hours repeatedly bolting and would not stop, period. Those 2 hours ended up removing a lot of hair on her face and was the motivation to teach her about "bits"...

Frankly, if a knotted rope sidepull halter was painful, they hid it well. Both, however, are now calmer and more relaxed with a bit, including curb bits.










The above halter is still in use under the bridle, and it doesn't seem to be a problem.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Love looking at your pics, bsms. Your horses always look so happy 

Subbing to see what others say...
EDIT--To add... Like all things, tools can be harmful in the wrong hands.


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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

Oh thanks for explaining it better. And I agree everything can be harsh in wrong hands..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

That's just it....horses can be stoic about pain. For general handing on the ground we've graduated to a neck rope and with one even that isn't needed.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not all horses are stoic, and those that are not (such as Mia) do not seem bothered by rope halters. Heck, our hands have a lot of nerves too, but it doesn't stop me from picking up bails of hay by the bailing twine:










If a horse gets hurt with a rope halter, it is probably the horse being an idiot. If the person is competent, pressure is only applied until the horse responds - so the HORSE chooses the pressure.

I'd rather ride in a Billy Allen curb than a rope halter, and even consider it to be gentler on a modestly trained horse, but I fail to see any sign that rope halters are a harsh or abusive design.


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## PandaJinxes (Mar 4, 2014)

Rope halters themselves aren't bad. It's incompetent people trying to use them that makes it dangerous. Like wailing on your horses nose or leaving it on in the pasture or not watching them while tied in one. We camo a lot, and Ive heard of 3 horses being hung with rope halters. (If you picket line your horse, please use a breakaway halter) 

I have a few rope halters but only use them on horses that just will not listen or are being dangerous. And I stop using them when they learn to behave, so they won't have a reason to have shot nerves or anything. I'm glad I don't use them, as I caught my old farrier beating my horses last year and shanking them pretty bad. Just be careful if you're going to use them, and make sure you know HOW to use them and use them reasonably..


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Just for clarification -- are we talking about the rope halters with the "plain" noseband or the ones with two knots placed strategically on either side? I think the two knotters are definitely a "sharper" halter and consequently much more unpleasant for the horse when used aggressively. I suspect some of the halters with the fancy braided nosebands (depending how the knots are placed) may be fairly sharp as well.


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## PandaJinxes (Mar 4, 2014)

Chevaux said:


> Just for clarification -- are we talking about the rope halters with the "plain" noseband or the ones with two knots placed strategically on either side? I think the two knotters are definitely a "sharper" halter and consequently much more unpleasant for the horse when used aggressively. I suspect some of the halters with the fancy braided nosebands (depending how the knots are placed) may be fairly sharp as well.


Are you talking about braided like this: 










Or like this: 










Because I think the second one, like the paracord bracelets, wouldn't be that bad. I don't know about the spiraled one, though... :?

(Found the pictures on google, so I have no clue why that halter is so low on that horse's face)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I think this thread is specifically referring to the placement of the knots in the halter. So... either of those pictures fit the bill, so to speak.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I think, Panda, the first halter (pink) is in the sharper category and the second one (assuming the underside is the same as the topside) is in the milder category. I was also referring to the style in this picture as being sharp (note also the twists on the pole strap):


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

A knotted halter is a tool. It can be very useful in the right situations and a total disaster in others - just like most of the other tools we use when it comes to equines. Now it is good to understand how that tool works and the potential impact, but this does not automatically make it evil or indicate any horse that wears one is going to be in constant pain.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Someone I know has a Percheron cross. Said Percheron cross is the rudest horse I have ever met. He ran over her while she was doing groundwork at her previous barn and the resident horse trainer grabbed the horse and "disciplined" him.

This man broke two of this horse's teeth with nothing more than a rope halter and a lead rope.

That doesn't mean rope halters are evil. Heck, I ONLY handled my late gelding with one. He was a stubborn horse and it was nice to have it there to be sharp if needed. My red mare doesn't like them, won't be caught if you have a rope halter in your hand but will run to you if you have a flat one. So I don't use one with her. Nor do I need one - she's opinionated but nowhere near as stubborn.

When training a horse I personally prefer the rope halter because it's more precise, but some horses would rather a flat one, and that's fine too. It's about using the gear that works best for both horse and handler. Nothing to do with gimmicks, OR with using no equipment at all [which is IMO another gimmick since it doesn't have that many practical applications].


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It saddens me to see horses ridden in knotted halters rather than a bit or good bosal. There is no fat and very thin muscle tissue where the knots press.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

I use a knotted rope halter with Cloud to this day. He's a very... oblivious shall we say? to a lot of goings on. He needs a reminder less and less, but he does not respect a web halter whatsoever. That was all he wore before coming to me and he was a great big bulldozer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> ...There is no fat and very thin muscle tissue where the knots press.


There isn't a lot of protective tissue in the mouth, either. ALL control methods will involve some way of providing an unpleasant alternative to obeying because that is what enables control of most horses.

How do I get a horse to go faster? I make a kissing sound.

Actually, I make a kissing sound, a light squeeze with the calves, a firm squeeze, a bump, a kick, a hard kick and then wallop with a leather strap. I do it every time - except my horses know me, and generally start going faster at a kissing sound. If I didn't release pressure until the wallop, I'd teach the horse a wallop was always coming so why care?

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/learned-helplessness-433562/

However, I stop applying pressure or escalating pressure when the horse responds, so the horse figures out he/she might as well accelerate at a kiss as wait for a wallop. The result is a horse who accelerates at the noise cue, rather than one who gets kicked - and that, to me, means I train them to respond to gentleness.

Trooper and Mia don't know what a flat halter is. They haven't ever seen one at my place. But they both have also been ridden in a rope halter, and most of the time they do it fine. Mia is the exception, because when she gets nervous or scared, she wants her rider to take firm control. If her rider doesn't take firm control ("_Do it or else!_"), then Mia assumes her rider can't protect her and it is up to her to save them both. A knotted rope halter is a poor choice for Mia, not because it is harsh, but because it is not harsh enough.

She knows she can ignore a rope halter, knots or not. She knows she can fight a snaffle, and sometimes win. She has always lost if she fights a curb bit, so...she acts confident and relaxed with a curb bit. And since the design of a curb bit means I can pull back on the reins and give a consistent cue BEFORE pressure is applied to her mouth, it means we can mostly ride pressure free.

The mildest method of control is the mildest one your horse will respond to, applied in a consistent manner that allows the horse to choose how much pressure it takes. Most of us own horses who, if the "harshest cue" you could give was a kissing sound, would never move forward with us on their back. The option to escalate is what makes a mild cue possible.


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## sea (May 15, 2014)

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll put this here, since it's related to rope halters.

I'm getting an older pony who needs work on her ground manners, as in, will try to drag you around unless you put a chain over her nose (to which she listens impeccably, of course) but as soon as the chain is off she's back to being rude. I was looking into a rope halter to reteach ground manners, but this thread is making me have doubts...not about the effectiveness about rope halters, but I don't want to break her teeth or anything crazy! Is there a guide or literature out there how to properly use a rope halter without breaking your pony's face off?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I use a rope halter all the time. The only situation where I do not is trailering. I doubt they are as much of an issue as this thread makes then appear. They are used by sooooo many horsemen.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I think these halters have their place when initially training if the horse warrants one. I'm of the feeling if the horse doesn't need one why use it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Why not? In 6 years of using them, the only time I've seen any harm was when using one as a sidepull halter on a horse who needed a bit instead. Used as a halter, I've never seen any sign of pain or any damage.

From this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497"_So this time, I stood on the side where the nylon off-billet was. Nylon is slippery. I clipped the reins to the rope halter under her bridle (something I should have done earlier), and gently eased the nylon just off the tongue of the cinch. It wasn't easy, because the cinch was tight. When I finally got it loose, I stood back and let it drop._

_ Mia bolted east, but I was ready...I bolted north. When we both hit the end of the rein, she was spun around 180 facing the saddle on the ground. I rubbed her nose, told her it was OK, and put her in the corral._"​That was using a knotted rope halter. I hit one end of my 10' rein going north when she hit the other end going east, with enough force that we both ended up facing each other...and there was no sign of pain from her. Only recognition that the thing that was bothering her was no longer bothering her, that I was there, so she sighed and waited for me to make things better - which I did by putting her in the corral while I cleaned things (and me) up.

I find them easy to put on, and they fit fine under my bridle when riding. If something goes wrong, I can clip my 10' rein to my rope halter and have a 10' lead rope.

The problem with a thread like this is it raises questions such as "_how to properly use a rope halter without breaking your pony's face off_?" - and as long as the halter fits OK, I don't see that ever happening. If I can whip a bolting horse into a 180 turn without any sign I've harmed her, then in what sense are they harsh?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> I think these halters have their place when initially training if the horse warrants one. I'm of the feeling if the horse doesn't need one why use it.



to me it's kind of like the way a horse can wear a cathedral curb bit. it's capable of inflicting awful pain, but it's not used for that. even on a very well trained horse, it's still there, and it's the whisper of its' potential that is all that is ever employed, and the horse is fine.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

A halter or a bit is only as severe as the hands behind it. Any training aid can be turned into a weapon with misuse if it’s the intent of the user. There are bits on the market today that make a knotted rope halter look mild in comparison. Even so if you set the horse up to succeed by training them to respond to the aid’s signal most can be used humanely.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

I use nothing but rope halters & haven't for years. They have no hardware to rust, are easy to throw in the washing machine, and last forever. As has been previously stated, a tool is only as harsh as the person using it.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

sea said:


> Instead of starting a new thread, I'll put this here, since it's related to rope halters.
> 
> I'm getting an older pony who needs work on her ground manners, as in, will try to drag you around unless you put a chain over her nose (to which she listens impeccably, of course) but as soon as the chain is off she's back to being rude. I was looking into a rope halter to reteach ground manners, but this thread is making me have doubts...not about the effectiveness about rope halters, but I don't want to break her teeth or anything crazy! Is there a guide or literature out there how to properly use a rope halter without breaking your pony's face off?



You are more apt to break or chip a tooth with a chain than anything out there. The end of the shank is a weapon when you pop them. I only use rope halters even on a breeding stallion. No sense in not having the tool available at all time even if you don't need it. Doesn't do you any good if you are unable to correct the issue right there right now.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> It saddens me to see horses ridden in knotted halters rather than a bit or good bosal. There is no fat and very thin muscle tissue where the knots press.


 Don't be sadden for my horses. When I start them in a rope halter, it is something they already understand and respond to. If I were to put a bit in their mouth and started pulling on it confusing the crap out of them, than you can feel sorry for them as I am confusing them and inflicting pain as well. How do I know that mouthpiece is a good fit for my horse from the getgo? I know the halter fits.


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## PandaJinxes (Mar 4, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> It saddens me to see horses ridden in knotted halters rather than a bit or good bosal. There is no fat and very thin muscle tissue where the knots press.


It might just be me, but this reply is really confusing. Why do I say that?

A good fitting bosal does basically the same thing as the knots in the rope halters. And bosals can be made more or less severe based on material, thickness, weight, etc. (I recently thought about getting one and have been researching it, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Just saying what I've learned from the internet and my boss, who let me ride a well trained horse in one. I'm not claiming to be 100% right or anything...) 

I don't know about the very thin muscle/no fat comment, all I know is there IS a lot of nerve endings there. But if you google rope halters, they're about as badly fitted as nylon halters are half the time. Does nobody play by the 'thumb width below the cheekbone' rule anymore? :shock: IMLTHO, putting ANYTHING too low on the nose is worse than fitting it properly.


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## PandaJinxes (Mar 4, 2014)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> You are more apt to break or chip a tooth with a chain than anything out there. The end of the shank is a weapon when you pop them. I only use rope halters even on a breeding stallion. No sense in not having the tool available at all time even if you don't need it. Doesn't do you any good if you are unable to correct the issue right there right now.


Some horses just can't be handled in a rope halter. A few months ago, the crazy lady down my road had her stud and gelding get out. The gelding was being a total gentleman and was easy to handle, but the stud literally attacked my friend and kept chasing the gelding off. I made the lady use a nylon halter with a stud chain over his nose to walk him back to her house. It proved useful, because he was a jerk on the end of the lead, and ended up rearing/pawing/kicking with both me and his owner. It was a nightmare, and I'd hate to see what he would have done with just a rope halter on if he was ignoring a full out chain.. :shock:


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

PandaJinxes said:


> he was a jerk on the end of the lead


That's the real problem. He probably wasn't really safe with a chain either.


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## PandaJinxes (Mar 4, 2014)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> That's the real problem. He probably wasn't really safe with a chain either.


Very bad situation all around. She locked him up hoping he'd breed back to his dam and another filly she has, all underweight etc. I actually made a blog post and a post on here about it. Ended up contacting the humane society and apparently they threatened to take her horses/dogs if she didn't change. Now they're separated and have food access.  I still absolutely refuse to go anywhere near this stud, though.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Hackamore said it, anything used incorrectly can be a weapon, and any piece of equipment is as good or as bad as the hands that use it. All I generally use is a rope halter, but I understand what they are about and use it accordingly. they are thin and can provide bite if and or when the horse requires it in its training, but once the horse is trained right one really shouldn't really need to be yanking on the lead rope. Once a horse is well trained I find them great for riding with under a bridle because they are light and not intrusive. (I never lead a horse by the reins hence why I want the halter on).

And I agree totally with saddlebag, I cringe when I see people using a rope halter instead of a good hackamore, they do not work the same way and have the potential to saw away at the horses muzzle (yes a hackamore can do the same if used incorrectly, however that is the key phrase: used incorrectly). There are very good reasons for the existence of such a wide range of bosal designs ranging from an inch thick on the bars down to a quarter inch, and there is good reason for starting horses off in thick bosals and progressing to thin ones. You wont get the same effect with a rope halter as a hackamore, they just aren't designed for it.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> You are more apt to break or chip a tooth with a chain than anything out there. The end of the shank is a weapon when you pop them. I only use rope halters even on a breeding stallion. No sense in not having the tool available at all time even if you don't need it. Doesn't do you any good if you are unable to correct the issue right there right now.


 I didn't mean to get in on this conversation, but I just wanted to comment to LHP- your idea of only using what you would normally have, and expecting it to work- that is SUCH good advice. Either find something that works all the time without injuring the horse, or re-evaluate what the issue is and go at it a different way. 
I am a relative newbie at riding, and my mare is usually quite a good girl. But sometimes she gets the better of me, and I get *super* frustrated as I try to figure out what happened; where I went wrong. Some people could suggest quick fixes, like a twisted wire bit, or a tie down for example. But I refuse to go to harsh means, but instead reevaluate what I was doing that caused the issues, and go about said issue differently. So far it has worked and I have been able to correct and extinguish what I most likely had caused in the first place 
But I don't see how a simple rope halter could really fall into the category of 'tool' any more than a flat one can. I tend more towards thinking of it as a halter that doesn't break if the horse spooks, thereby letting my animal possibly get injured by running into traffic. And no matter how well behaved the horse, anything can cause them to spook and set back and break a flat halter. It is just life with horses. 
Plus I never could get a flat halter straight in my hand while my poor tolerant mare sat there waiting to be haltered! Rope, yep, we've got that one down, lol. 

ETA: Anrew seems to have caught more of what Saddlebag meant than I- using a halter to ride with. I know nothing about this, as I wouldn't have ever thought to do it. My thoughts are all in regards to just using it as my standard halter to get my horse and lead her.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

I had to use a chain with my mare. She was uncontrollable. I hated using it but as soon as I put it on she was a completely different horse. We graduated to a rope halter and hopefully soon ill be able to use a nylon one!!! 

If used correctly it is a very useful tool
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OliviaMyee (Jul 31, 2012)

From what i can rationalise and have experienced first hand with horses and a trainer.

Any tool can be a use of pain, sometimes its pain that teaches the horse something, even people learn from pain, discomfort or pressure. 

Some times (even allot) you have to be cruel to be kind in the long term what of the horses that know how to rear and bolt what can stop them and gain controll over their behaviours a soft padded leather halter ? Can a 50 kilo person controll a 500 kilo horse from rearing or bolting on the ground with a soft padded cuddly halter ?

first hand i experienced no, and thats where i had my epiphany that my preconceptions of acting delicately and using soft padded and bitless bridles where not a viable option for training the majority of horses, exspecially troubled horses ! 

Horses can learn a habit from one experience, one accidant of letting go of the lead rope and you have a bolter horse that when ever doesnt want to do something can bolt of. 

A rope halter, stud chain or even a bit can be such a usefull training tool, i see a tool such as a rope halter or stud chain much more humane than a life of misery for a horse hoping from one home to the next, acting dangerous and ending up as dog food. 

When a horse suddenly reacts dangerously like bolting, or pushing into you any sort of action which threatens other peoples lives and the horses life itself (getting on the road), you just have to use pressure and when viable pain. wether it be using your whole body to hold onto the end of that rope halter which is probably pressing into the horses face very tight its to avoid the danger of the horse learning bad habits, getting the rope caught or injuring itself. 

The rope halter is something most horses learnt to respect i dont care (most people dont) wether the halter is used at some point used firmly or hard to correct a behaviour. People just want the horse to act accordingly, to behave safely because we care for our safety, others and the horses wellbeing. 

Horses are not as intelligant as us, we cant have a stern word or give them a half hearted slap, but they can understand when they are in pain or under pressure, and they will mostly want to relieve themselves of the pressure or discomfort by complying.


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

I use a rope halter on my older horse that used to have behavior issues. I think it really helped him get past some of those issues. I still use it on him now but because he is respectful the knots just sit and he never feels the pressure.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

And what I have never understood about these knotted halters, is they are used far more harshly than a chain shank is, as the knotted halter people will hang on those, and chain shank is correct and done.

But they will low rate someone who uses a chain shank?

Oh please.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Palomine said:


> And what I have never understood about these knotted halters, is they are used far more harshly than a chain shank is, as the knotted halter people will hang on those, and chain shank is correct and done.
> 
> But they will low rate someone who uses a chain shank?
> 
> Oh please.


You really think so? I don't think I have ever seen anyone use a knotted halter poorly, only at the moment when the horse needs that correction. But I also have never been around anyone with chain shanks, either. Honestly, my exposure to either is limited, as those friends I know who use knotted halters, all do so properly so that a horse mostly self corrects.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I did say "ridden" with a knotted halter. I was relieved to read that more and more trainers are moving away from knotted halters. By starting a horse at liberty a halter isn't needed at all and this is the route more and more trainers are taking.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> I did say "ridden" with a knotted halter. I was relieved to read that more and more trainers are moving away from knotted halters. By starting a horse at liberty a halter isn't needed at all and this is the route more and more trainers are taking.


Yeah, I didn't catch the ridden part... whoopsy.


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## Rideabighorse (Jan 12, 2014)

I only use SOFT rope halters on my horses. As long as the horse isn't pulling they apply almost no pressure to the horse. It is only whe the horse isn't following the feel that it gets uncomfortable for them. The rope halters last for ever and when they get dirty I just throw them in the washer. I also usually ride with them, often with the reins draped on the saddle horn so there isn't much pressure on the nose.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

I use a soft rope halter , have used it excusively for years...and just had to look at a picture to remind myself (lol).....it has a knot on either side of the nose, a knot on either jaw, and the knot where it is tied. I've seen some with more knots than that. My halter fits loosely-not snugly-certainly not putting pressure unless he were to really lean against it, or jerk his head, and honestly, I've never felt that it caused him any pain whatsoever,,,and he has jerked the lead rope out of my hand many times..... I know horses can hide pain, but he lets me know immediately if I touch him on the rump with a leaather popper, and I dont' mean a hard touch, just a light tap,,,so my gut feeling is that the rope halter doesnt hurt him or I would've realized it. As already said, any piece of equipment could potentially cause pain if used incorrectly or harshly. 
To me the advantage to the soft (emphasis on soft---can't compare to baling twine in your hand, it isnt soft).. with the knots place appropriately is the amount of communication you can establish with the lightest of cues...as opposed to a wide web or leather halter---little or no feel from a movement of your lead rope. jmho...with the result that you CAN lighten your cues and still get the desired response in a soft rope halter.
Since you may ---and will inevetiably---need to communicate to the horse at any given time or situation,,,I feel the rope halter at all times is my best, and kindest tool.But I never, ever turn him out with it on. Even if he's in the roundpen or paddock and I'm going to take a break, I take it off. I do tie him in it, but not crosstied--just single tied, and I'm in sight of him. Plus I have an 'equiping' device always on it, and if any doubt, I connect the rope to that instead of directly to the halter---it acts as a breakaway--comes apart at ?120 lbs pressure.

Fay


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Palomine said:


> And what I have never understood about these knotted halters, is they are used far more harshly than a chain shank is, as the knotted halter people will hang on those, and chain shank is correct and done.
> 
> But they will low rate someone who uses a chain shank?
> 
> Oh please.


 Absolutely! And unfortunately most of the people I know who use them are rank beginners and amateurs who like the looks of them and unknowingly use them in a very abusive manner.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

A twisted wire snaffle, even a narrow snaffle, a bit with lots of leverage or a high port, a narrow hackamore, a mechanical hack, spurs, whips, all can easily be considered cruel in the wrong hands. Heck, any sort of equipment can be a weapon, I have seen bloody mouths from people yanking on a medium thick, smooth French link d-ring. Come to think of it, my mare has a permanent mark and bald spot on her face from a web halter.

I knew a lady who did endurance on a gorgeous black arab stallion, and she competed in a rope halter. Her horse was happy and well behaved.

I don't think a rope halter is cruel, any more than a curb bit, spurs or a thin snaffle is cruel, when used correctly.


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