# Gold spot on shoulder?



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Stiffler, my best friend's QH, has developed a strange gold spot on his shoulder. He has had no injuries to this area, and the spot was not there over the winter, nor do I remember him having it last year. He hasn't gotten a rubbed spot in that area, the skin seems normal, the mis-colored coat there is healthy and shiny. I can't quite figure out where this has come from. We have not applied any mtg or anything that could accelerate sun bleaching or anything on him. He just has a randomly gold shoulder. Note, the area very specifically is gold, not white or cream hairs like a scar. He also appears to have a second goldish area starting to show through below the first one.

He is registered as a bay, though I don't believe that is accurate for him (guessing probably brown?). He is out of a palomino stallion and a dun mare. 

Picture of shoulder spot: 











Otherwise a solidly marked horse, nothing unusual about his coat/color:





















Picture of Stiffler coming out of his winter coat just a few months ago - clearly no spot:











Anyone seen anything like this before or know what it is? I'm hesitant to just dismiss it in case it's some kind of indication that something is wrong. But I hardly want to call the vet out just for some funny colored hair, too, in case it's just something not unusual, but that I just haven't seen before.


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

I dont know about color genetics but it looks cool!
Maybe call your vet and just ask him about it, my vet doesnt charge for questions on the phone.
If its all healthy then I wouldnt be too worried
Possibly the opposit of a Bend Or spot? (a dark spot developed on a Sorrel or Chesnut horse, sometimes other colors)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It looks to me like exactly what you said - a gold spot. I am not sure but think they are like Bend Ors in that we aren't sure what makes them and that they can appear and disappear


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

Thats really intresting. I'm subbing cause I'd like to see what people think it is.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/what-would-you-call-marking-61705/

Here is another thread about Gold Spots


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Huh, how interesting. I have no idea what it is, but Zeiner has something similar. He has a very small patch of mixed bay and golden hairs on his head about the size of a dime. I will try to get a picture but I don't know if it will turn out.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I am familiar with Bend-Or spots. My sorrel mule even has one. lol. I thought that Bend-Or's were traced back to one TB, like the Bird Catcher spots?

Thanks for the link, Chiilaa, it sounds similar, but doesn't really look quite the same. Unfortunately the link Chey had provided in that thread doesn't work any more, and a google search on gold spots just leads me to a horse named Gold Spot lol. I think this is something different, as the horse in that threads OP has had it her whole life, this spot just showed up on Stiffler in the last month or so. 

I really don't know what it is. It certainly doesn't bother him in any way, it's just so strange, showing up out of no where. He's mature, he just turned 9 last month. I just wondered if there were weird things with the genetics of dilutes (so not familiar with) that might contribute to this, he has a lot of palominos (and duns, actually) in his pedigree. 

Here is Stiffler is on Allbreed:

Jc Reys Rukin String Quarter Horse

Hmm. Don't know why his dam side is showing up on Allbreed as incomplete. Here's the rest:

DS:

Wild Cactus Quarter Horse

DD:

Sun Bars Candy Quarter Horse


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

WHAT the heck??? | Equine Color Genetics

Ok - What is NOT Calico Tobi then?? | Equine Color Genetics

Some interesting ideas in there. As you can see from the pics in the first one, Gold Spots can look very different. 

As far as his genetics causing it - it would be chimerism in that case, and would have been there at birth.


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

My sorrel mare has a Bend-Or spot on her hind quarter, my friends sorrel gelding also has one, and all that I have seen, they are always darker, and more or a less a perfect oval, not jaggidy or faded.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Thyme said:


> My sorrel mare has a Bend-Or spot on her hind quarter, my friends sorrel gelding also has one, and all that I have seen, they are always darker, and more or a less a perfect oval, not jaggidy or faded.


This isn't a Bend Or spot, the only reason I mentioned them was that we don't know the genetic explanation for them either.

Bend Or spots are always darker. Gold Spots are always that - gold. They usually are the perfect palomino colour, no matter the base colour of the horse they appear on. I guess that a Gold Spot on a cremello could be mistaken for a Bend Or spot though


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

"I guess that a Gold Spot on a cremello could be mistaken for a Bend Or spot though :razz: "

lol yea, didnt think that, any white/grey horses with gold spots?
So this is just a section of Diluted Pigment?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> WHAT the heck??? | Equine Color Genetics
> 
> Ok - What is NOT Calico Tobi then?? | Equine Color Genetics
> 
> ...


Oh wow, those links are interesting! The one spot on the bay (2nd picture in 5th post) looks very similar, though much larger, but it's got the same wibbly edges to the area. Fascinating stuff! Pretty sure there is no chimerism going on, I just can't fathom why it showed up now. Wanted to make sure I didn't need to worry my friend about cancer or something awful. lol

Thyme, yup, like I said Lola has one on her side, it's perfect oval, and dark brown/blackish.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Is there any chance something bleached that spot?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I vote he was playing in the laundry room and he accidentally spilled bleach on his shoulder and did not rinse it out quick enough.

I have done that to some pants.


OK, I admit it, just subscribing to the thread because I am interested in the answer.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

^^This is Stifflers Daddy? What the heck?! LOL


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I vote he was playing in the laundry room and he accidentally spilled bleach on his shoulder and did not rinse it out quick enough.
> 
> I have done that to some pants.
> 
> ...


Sorry was my cosmetologist brain working.


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## alforddm (Oct 1, 2010)

Could it possibly be a form of depigmentation in this case? I haven't studied the mechanism to see if that would even be possible. My father-in-law has depigmentation in his skin that appeared later in life. 

From wikipedia


> Depigmentation is the lightening of the skin, or loss of pigment. Depigmentation of the skin can be caused by a number of local and systemic conditions. The pigment loss can be partial (injury to the skin) or complete (caused by vitiligo). It can be temporary (from tinea versicolor) or permanent (from albinism).


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> ^^This is Stifflers Daddy? What the heck?! LOL


Yup, That's him, AGD Skips My Dad. From pictures I am guessing he is actually a sooty pali, which is kind of what I was wondering might be playing up here. 

AB lol I told Tracie last night that Stiffler heard her, she always says that he is a "boring" color, so he grew something flashy to impress her. :lol:

Alforddm, Normally I would suspect that to be the case. But in the time we have had this horse here, there have been no injuries or trauma to that area. He has gotten plenty of bite marks on his back and hind quarters, (he's low on the totem pole). But so far they have tended to grow in dark and then sunbleach and match right back in. I know he hasn't had any injuries to that shoulder, so I don't think depigmentation is the case here.


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## alforddm (Oct 1, 2010)

Well depigmentation can be caused by other things besides trauma so that doesn't entirely rule it out. Given that his sire is a pally I wonder if he might be a "brownskin" (brown based buckskin) and for some reason the "brown" is getting turned off in that one spot. Since he's a gelding he probably hasn't been tested for cream? It's very interesting whatever causes it.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

alforddm said:


> Well depigmentation can be caused by other things besides trauma so that doesn't entirely rule it out. Given that his sire is a pally I wonder if he might be a "brownskin" (brown based buckskin) and for some reason the "brown" is getting turned off in that one spot. Since he's a gelding he probably hasn't been tested for cream? It's very interesting whatever causes it.


I am thinking it might be worth color testing on him. No, he has never been tested. I am sending off a test for my two youngsters soon, I might send a sample for him along with. Cori just looked up his parents on the color calculator, and it doesn't list bay, which is what he is registered as, as a possible result. These are the options listed:

25.00% - ​ *Red Dun * 25.00% - ​ *Palomino * 25.00% - ​ *Dunalino * 25.00% - ​ *Chestnut *
Stiffler obviously LOOKS like none of those. But I wonder if there could be something really weird with the sooty gene going on now.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Do you know for a fact that those are his parents?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Do you know for a fact that those are his parents?


Yup. While I have not gotten reissue of his AQHA papers yet, I do have the AQHA issued pedigree.

Though, if you mean, have I spoken to the breeder in person, seen the parents with my own eyes, and verified with the breeder it's the same horse? No. I suppose I certainly could have been lied to.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What colour dun is the mare? Is she red dun or bay dun? Most that are listed as just 'dun' tend to be bay dun. Also, without testing, there is no way to know what agouti genes the sire may or may not carry, since palomino is a red based colour, and agouti only acts on black base.

For what it's worth, to me he looks like a brown horse with a gold spot. I am not sure about the gold spot just appearing, so I will search around and see what I can find. Gold spots are usually that bright palomino colour no matter the ancestry and base colour of the horse, so that isn't what is causing it. I don't think that Stiffler is a 'brownskin' either.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> What colour dun is the mare? Is she red dun or bay dun? Most that are listed as just 'dun' tend to be bay dun. Also, without testing, there is no way to know what agouti genes the sire may or may not carry, since palomino is a red based colour, and agouti only acts on black base.
> 
> For what it's worth, to me he looks like a brown horse with a gold spot. I am not sure about the gold spot just appearing, so I will search around and see what I can find. Gold spots are usually that bright palomino colour no matter the ancestry and base colour of the horse, so that isn't what is causing it. I don't think that Stiffler is a 'brownskin' either.


It just says Dun on the papers, but pretty sure the foal picture I have seen of him, his dam was a red dun. I can't seem to find the picture now so I can't be certain.

I think he's just brown, too, I had suspected he wasn't bay because his legs turn brown in his winter coat. I just got to wondering when the color calculator Cori and I looked up didn't show up with that as an option. But he was sold to my friend with a copy of his AQHA 4 gen pedigree and AQHA last recorded owner (who was not the seller) so it isn't out of the question that, to be honest, the information isn't falsified, either. We are still in the process of trying to get a hold of his actual registration papers.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Do you mind if I link this on another forum? It's full of people who are far more expert on colours and genetics than I, and I just can't find any info on Gold Spots developing as a horse ages, all I can find are ones from birth or from first sheds.

ETA: ND I can see you reading this (not a stalker, I swear...) What do you think?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Absolutely, interested to find out more about it. And thanks! :lol:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not sure what to think really. :lol: I do think that it is something along the lines of like a bend 'or spot, birdcatcher spot, etc. Not specifically one of those, but something that acts similar in that it can and probably will come and go and not be permanent. 

I do know that if his sire is really the palomino and his dam was a red dun like you beleive, there is no way that he is brown/bay. 

Chiilaa - care to pm with what forum?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It would be a bit easier if registries would keep up with science *shakes head* How nice would it be if the pedigree said "red dun" or "bay dun" instead of "dun" *mutters darkly*


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

With a bay dun, they give bay as an option....

*Offspring Color Probability* 

14.58% - ​ *Dunskin * 14.58% - ​ *Buckskin * 14.58% - ​ *Bay Dun * 14.58% - ​ *Bay * 8.33% - ​ *Red Dun * 8.33% - ​ *Palomino * 8.33% - ​ *Dunalino * 8.33% - ​ *Chestnut * 2.08% - ​ *Smoky Grullo * 2.08% - ​ *Smoky Black * 2.08% - ​ *Grullo * 2.08% - ​ *Black *


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Bear in mind that not many colour calculators include brown in their calculations - either because they just don't get it, or they are too stubborn to accept change


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I think part of it too is that a lot of people don't recognize brown as a color.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> I think part of it too is that a lot of people don't recognize brown as a color.


I put that down to stubborness :twisted:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, looking closely again, it is possible that he is just a very sooty buckskin, though I can't say for sure. If you send him off for testing with Finn and Fi, you'll have to let us know the results.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

How long have you had him?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Huh. How strange. Interesting though. That might explain Abby's random little spot. She's buckskin, so she's already golden, but there's a small, quarter-sized spot on her bum that is always lighter coloured and definitely noticeable. It's not white like her other two small spots that show up when she sheds from the winter that I've posted about before.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My first thought about his parentage is that he may have been mis-registered. Perhaps he could be a sooty buckskin, if he inherited the cream gene from his mamma. I knew of a horse (over the internet, on another forum) that was basically the same colour, minus the gold spot, and genetically tested as buckskin, so it is possible despite the fact that he doesn't LOOK buckskin. The gold spot could be lack of sooty. He could even be a smokey black, genetically speaking it is a possibility with a dilute parent and a parent that HAS to have black base (or he could not be black based himself).

But I'm not a colour expert. Going to assume the dun parent was black-based, because the pali parent cannot have given him a black gene (due to being red-based, and red-based horses cannot carry black). If the dun parent was grulla, then the pali would have 'donated' the agouti gene to make bay/buckskin.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> How long have you had him?


My best friend has owned him since last October, but he's been here on my property since May of last year.

I had thought the foal picture I had seen of him before, his dam was a red dun, but I can't seem to find that picture again and I may be remembering incorrectly. It's certainly possible she was a bay dun and I'm remembering it wrong. Could have sworn she was red dun though. I wish I could find that picture again!

Smrobs, will definitely update with testing results! lol


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## pctrider (Nov 14, 2010)

Wow, this is so weird. My sooty buckskin has that exact same spot. They look so similar I was about to ask my friend why she posted a pic of my horse without telling me.

This thread seems to be getting off the topic of the spot but I want to know why my guy has it too. Last year he didn't have it. This year he has the largest one in the same spot but then one on the other side and smaller ones on each side of his bum.


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

Subbing to this post - curious to see what the genetic test comes back as!


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## KDW (May 31, 2011)

I was also thinking vitiligo...


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

did he have a blanket on last winter? looks like a rubbed spot to me and the hair grew in a different color


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I think she would have noticed the rub spot if that's what it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Lonestar22 said:


> I think she would have noticed the rub spot if that's what it was.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe, maybe not. Alot of people do not notice rub spots and wonder what they are when the hair is lighter. Just my thoughts on it.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

KDW, interesting, had to look that one up. I don't think it's vitiligo, though, as mentioned the hair is very clearly GOLD, not white. The skin underneath is still dark.

Churumbeque - nope, no rubbing, and he wasn't blanketed last winter at all. He's pastured 27/7, for 3/4 of the year, and stalled at night only in the winter. As mentioned, he has had no injuries, rubs, or anything to this area, though he has gotten a fair few bites elsewhere. I see these horses every day, many times a day. They live at home, they are not boarded. See the picture of him just coming out of his winter coat this spring in my OP, that was taken in like, March. Clearly no rub, and no gold spot then. Feed hasn't changed, routine hasn't changed, the _only_ thing that has changed recently is the type of fly spray I am using, but the gold spot appeared before that switch was made.


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## pctrider (Nov 14, 2010)

hmmmm I didn't notice any rubbing on my horse, but honestly that would be my best guess. Interesting anyway we may never know.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I am putting in my vote for martians. Yepper, little aliens have marked him.

:lol:


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I am putting in my vote for martians. Yepper, little aliens have marked him.
> 
> :lol:


****!! Stiffler had a close encounter! :rofl: Woooo-eeeeh-ooooh!


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

I saw this thread the other day, but yesterday I noticed that my mare had been standing under a tree and a bird had poopied on her back. Today there is a big bleached out spot where the poo had been yesterday. I'm not saying that huge golden spot is from a bird (that woulda been a HUGE bird!) but it goes to show that it could of been something random and crazy like that!


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Heartprint...rotf!! You know, the first year I moved here, Claymore had a bird-friend. A little black bird with a brown head (cowbird, I think?) That darn thing would perch on his withers, standing up or laying down, day or night, for the whole of that first summer. Maybe Stiffler has picked up a bird friend I haven't noticed yet! :lol:


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm subscribing to this.. I wanna see what he tests as!


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