# Breaking 2 year olds



## Misty'sGirl (Oct 22, 2007)

Opening a can of worms here lol, people have some strong views on this. Personally I'd never break a 2yo, they're just too young IMHO.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was debating this too, and I am taking my time with Breeze, but I believe if a horse is physically and mentally ready, it is okay for short walk trot rides, maybe the occasional loping.


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## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

Mine is 3 1/2 right now and going to a trainer. People thought he was fine to get started at 2 1/2, but I didn't want to chance anything. I'd rather wait to be sure than push it, so now I feel comfortable that he is ready physically and mentally and I feel ready for him to be started too.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I understand that, I feel as if Breeze is mentally ready, and the vet will tell me if she is physically ready. If I were to send Breeze off to the trainer I was talking about in my first post (the only professional one around here) She would have her reining by 3 years old, maybe barrels if I told her what I wanted to do with her. She also accepts no horse over 4 for training. 

If I do break breeze this summer, we will not be going anywhere to ride, it will be in a smaller pen for around 15 mins every few days until she is 3 and a half years old. (turns 3 in winter, will not break in winter, too icy) I may take her on a short 10 minute trail ride to my house (farm is 2 mins drive) and 10 mins back once I feel confortable on her riding in the farm yard (out of a pen)


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

A horse that just turned 2 is definitely not ready. Almost turning 3, should be ok to start but nothing hard, extreme or for a long period of riding. Definitely not jumping or barrels. Their joints don't close until about 5. 

A lot of people will say it is better to wait until they are 4 or 5 before starting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know that a lot of people wait a long time. If i don't start her this summer, I will next summer, when she is well into her 3rd year. She is 14hh last time I measured her, She is growing a lot. She grew 4 inches in 4 months. When I got her she was 13hh, I measured her 4 months later and she is 14hh. I am measuring her again soon, I am thinking she is closer to 14.1 or 14.2hh now. She is almost as tall as the 14.3hh mustang she is in with. 

Breeze is also filling out really good, she is getting more muscle and getting wider in the chest area. She has a big butt and her whithers are coming up more. Since she had the farrier come, she does not have pig toed anymore (or whatever you call it when the hooves point outwards) 

I am just taking my time with her, but if everything goes as planned she will be getting ridden a little bit this summer, off of riding for the winter, then real training next spring.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

This is a big subject. I know tons of horses that were started at 2 and had no problems throughout their life what so ever. I actually know a futurity Reiner who was started at 1 1/2 I believe and still kicking it at 18 (she will be 19 this year I believe) however I do not reccomend starting a horse at that young of age.

I started my filly at 2 1/2 with 10 minute rides every so often. I wasn't really consistent with her sometimes riding her once a week and riding her three times the next. Depends how well she was.

She's 3 now and I somewhat kicked her training up a bit. About 20 minutes maybe 30 minutes every so often. And in the dead of winter, I won't be riding much so she pretty much gets the whole winter off.

Luckily for me though she's a smart cookie and if I did one thing to her today and come back in 2 weeks and rider her again she'll remember it like we did it yesterday. So I am not too worried about that...

Anyways I would see if she's physically ready to ride and see how far her knees are closed, etc. hope that helps.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

When I was looking for my horse any horse that was for sale that I even smelled being backed before 3 I walked away from. If the ad was at least honest enough to say it I never called.

Can you do it without issues? Possibly. Is it worth the risk? IMO no. Good horses have lots of years a head of them. There is no reason to rush. Waiting isn't going to hurt them at all. NOT waiting could. So why take a chance?


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

It really isn't the walking and trotting that does them in, it is the weight they have to carry and the way the must compensate to balance themselves. IMO it is way to early to start a horse, even if they seem ready or if it is common for that breed. There are so many things you can do on the ground from the moment they are born, that even if you only have the one horse to break, you could spend years just perfecting and preparing them. Horses that are rushed into the saddle with gaps in even basic groundwork can be quite the hassle once you start asking different things of them. From what I've observed, usually once people start riding a very young horse, and if it doesn't go entirely bad, even if they planned on giving that horse a break, they keep with it. If you are going to start a horse young, it is best to get the basics through their head, then give them a long break. Once you pick them back up at three or four, you can 'restart' them to see what they remember, but if you did good work with them, it shouldn't take very long.

I've seen young horses rode into the ground until they are sweating and shaking and then asked for more. Not much of a good impression to be left on a horse if you want to quick drill everything into their heads. Good things take time, and the less experience you have, and depending on the time you are willing to commit, a year's worth of groundwork might not be a bad idea. I was started on a green three year old, and after getting bucked off a few times, he got about a year and a half of ground work because I was too afraid to ride him. By the time I built up the courage to get back on he was a very good horse barring the saddle fitting issues and bad teeth. Once those issues were resolved he is just a stellar horse who needs more miles. I've rambled quite a bit, but the point is take the time it takes! Good luck.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Started slowly and smartly I have never seen a horse go unsound from being started at two. And I've seen a lot of babies started at two, that I have watched grow up and get sold on to new homes. Many, if not all, are still in those homes and competing or trail riding heavily in their 20's. Generally in spring of their two year old year we start getting them used to tack, with light lunging maybe twice a week or so. I will also start leaning over the saddle and sitting on them, maybe getting led around a few times. By early/mid summer they are getting "ridden" a few times a week in the ring, mainly to install steering and brakes. When fall comes, they've been ridden maybe 30-40 light w/t rides, with a lope thrown in down the long side here and there. Then we give them the winter off, maybe with a few bareback rides here and there. Spring of their three year old year I "re-back them", and start some real training. By the end of their three year old year they've been ridden probably 2-3 times a week and been on some short trail rides. Again, they get the winter off. The four year old year we get real serious, and from there the training progresses. 

My grandmother used to do things differently, basically her 2-2 1/2 year olds got trail ridden all over the place almost every day, and sold by the time they were 3-4. Most of those horses are still in the same homes, some are in their 20's and still going strong.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

The very good trainer you are referring to is NOT a very GOOD trainer if she is putting weight on 2 yr olds.

The 2 year old has never existed and never will that's ready to bear weight as a 2 yr old. Most 3 yr olds are not ready.

I hear all kinds of stories trying to convince themself that it doesn't hurt them, but I can show you 1000's that it does hurt for every one it doesn't. 

No way would I take a horse to this trainer. She should be turned in for cruelty to animals.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I have seen alot of horses backed at 2 go on with no problems well into their 20's:wink:. Alot has to do with what kind of riding they get at a young age{2-5 yrs}.Higher impact sports,long rides,unbalanced rider,carrying too much weight,weak conformation,poor nutrition & farrier etc all play a role.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

We broke my draft cross gelding at 2.5, but he was ready and we have NEVER done anything strenuous. He was mentally very mature and picks things up extremely quickly (was working off leg pressure alone on his first ride). We've only done maybe eighteen rides in the year and a half he's been broke, mostly walking with a little trotting after he turned three, and a few trail rides. He'll be four in May and this summer I hope to put him to work and do a few W/T classes at a couple of local shows.

There was a 2yo QH gelding that was started at the same time Aires was. He wasn't mentally or physically ready, but his owner insisted he be started. He was extremely difficult to work with and had soundness issues from the get-go. Don't take this the wrong way, but your filly reminds me a lot of Bo in her build, expression and look. She looks like a baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> The very good trainer you are referring to is NOT a very GOOD trainer if she is putting weight on 2 yr olds.
> 
> The 2 year old has never existed and never will that's ready to bear weight as a 2 yr old. Most 3 yr olds are not ready.
> 
> ...


She is a very good trainer and a lot of the horses, if not all, have and still are going into their 20's and still showing in reining and barrel racing. She is not cruel to animals, she does what needs to be done and all her horses and the horses she has sold, are all still healthy and fine.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but your filly reminds me a lot of Bo in her build, expression and look. She looks like a baby.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of the pictures I have posted are from when I first got her. She has grown a lot and if you look at her in person, she looks a lot like a full grown matured horse. Breeze has a lot of growing to do yet, but if I do break her, it will be slow and we will take our time. We will probably only ride 10-15 minutes every few days, or like 2 times a week if that. Only walking a trotting, then occasionally a short lope, to see how her transitions are.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Who is this trainer? I'd like to speak with her on the phone.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you don't want a horse to be trained that young by her, then you can bring it in anytime before it turns 4. She will not take any horse after the age of 4 to be started.

She doesn't break them right when they turn 2, it is when they are 2 and a half, or the summer of there 2yr old year. 

She is not a bad trainer. She is a really good trainer. She doesn't break all her horses at that age, but if she is showing them in futurities and stuff, they will be broke at that age, her broodmares do not get broke at that age, unless they show and then become broodmares. Her studs were broke at that age, one is over 10 years old (I am not sure how old her is) and he is still perfectly healthy with no problems what so ever. 

I think it all has to do with the horse itself. Every horse is different.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Who is this trainer? I'd like to speak with her on the phone.


:lol::lol::lol::lol: You want to set her straight?? Well why stop at her,Starting 2 yr olds IS common practice of most western stock horse trainers & racehorse folk,agree with it or not.....


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

There are a lot of people around here that start at 2.Exactly what paintedpastures said, agree with it, or dont.


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> She will not take any horse after the age of 4 to be started.


Why not, I wonder?


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## Stir crazy (Jan 23, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> .
> 
> I can show you 1000's that it does hurt for every one it doesn't.


SHOW ME!!! I want to see these 1000's . where have seen them??


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

A lot of people are of the mind that after 4 a horse is too old, or harder to break. And with, say a 7 year old pasture pet with just lots of 'loving', it is true. But also after four you have to to a lot more training to before showing. A 4 year old is the oldest a horse can be shown in a snaffle bit in western competitions. 

We broke an 8 year old mare once. She never bucked, but she sure was ornery. If you told her to go right, she'd go left, and vice versa. She did eventually come around. Just was a bit more set in her ways. 

Before coming on this board, I had never heard that breaking a 2 year old was 'wrong'. Around here if the horse is past five and not broke, pretty well forget about buying it. Unless it's a really well bred horse, you're better off buying something under four. 
Also if the horse is over three and not broke, unless it's coming from a PMU, mass breeder, or a broodmare/stallion, the question is, 'what is wrong with it?'. It must have either a MAJOR conformation or MAJOR attitude problems. 

At auctions if the horse's age is given, it's the weanlings, yearlings and two year olds that are the sellers. Older then that is iffy, probably a problem horse. That is unless it's at a special sale. 

SK people correct me if I'm wrong. That is the attitude that we got while at Melville and Preeceville. 

Not saying this is right. But, before you jump down someone's throat about breaking 2 year olds, consider the different opinions. Not every one is right, and not everyone is wrong. 

On a side note, I 'broke' a little QH filly as a two year old with out a halter or a saddle. I couldn't swing onto my QH/Arabian gelding from the ground, so I would jump on WildOne (she was wild and head shy when I bought her as a yearling), with a rope looped around her neck, and then position Zayn and climb onto him. I could swing ropes and direct my gelding and WildOne had no problems. All in all I was probably on her back for less than 5 minutes. Later on, I saddled her and rode her with it, but that was in the winter of her two year old year. She only ever kind of bucked on me once, I was riding bareback and she jumped (with an arched back), with her head down, I ended up sliding down her neck and stepping over her head. She looked up from grazing and I swear she was laughing at me!

BTW, this horse is still doing fine at 7 years old. I sold her to a friend. 

Sorry for the book.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

JaphyJaphy said:


> Why not, I wonder?


Probably because they get too big in size and attitude for her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Stir crazy said:


> SHOW ME!!! I want to see these 1000's . where have seen them??


Maybe if you just look at racehorses that are started at 1 1/2 and are used up by 4 or 5.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

That is long yearlings, not the two year olds that we are talking about... 
And, that is going straight into a lot of HARD work, exercising, conditioning, racing. 
Breezy is simply wanting to put an hour or two on in a week.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I was giving the only example I could think of that would make up the "1000's" that was mentioned. 

Sorry, I don't have a sarcastic face button yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

Ahh, gotcha! Sorry! 
And yes, we do need a sarcastic face on here.. that would be awesome!


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Who is this trainer? I'd like to speak with her on the phone.


Thats pretty funny to be honest. Starting 2 year olds is very common where I live, actually its pretty common all over the place.

What it comes down to is how she trains her horses, and if she wants to start them at 2 then so be it. Its none of your business. 

If you think its animal abuse, then fund your local ASPCA or something along the line. They have much more worse 'abuse' cases than that.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Only people I know who don't break or have their horse broke between 2 and 3 are those who have given up on riding. By the time the horse is 4+ and they decide to sell it, they have a hard time of it. Almost no one wants to buy a horse of that age who isn't broke already. I've also been told by a couple trainers that they wont take on the job because the risk of injury to themselves is just to high. 

Now, when I say broke I mean they'll take a saddle, rider, stop, go and steer. That doesn't mean they are barrel racing, doing 100 miler endurance rides or running the Kentucky Derby.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

GallopingGuitarist said:


> Ahh, gotcha! Sorry!
> And yes, we do need a sarcastic face on here.. that would be awesome!


Did google search and found these that are all suppose to mean sarcasm:
u.u (without Yo. Stupid smartphone won't put (u.u)
ssf
:s)

Found on my phone that might work:
😒 or 😣unless they mean something else
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

I usually do a tongue sticking out face : - p But on here it creates some sort of smiley face. gah! Oh well.. in a pinch you can always do this :insert sarcastic face/voice:


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

When ever I think of breaking a horse at a young(1 to 2)age I think of this picture








I did basic ground training with Arwin and started backing her in fall when she was around 3 1/2. She is now 4 and doing a bit more complex work but im still not pushing her until I also become a better rider. Did I do everything right? who knows but she is sound and I was comfortable with all the work we did. Some horses mature faster than others.


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## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

OmG! :shock:


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

Horrible pic, but again, not really comparable to what Breezy is wanting to do...
That horse looks like an under fed yearling. 
I wonder, how old is it? (just curiosity).


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

That looks like a baby in the picture!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> That looks like a baby in the picture!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A draft horse youngster,so it's bigger & stonger,bigger bones Yada,yada:lol:


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## GallopingGuitarist (Jan 8, 2013)

Yep! Exactly! :Insert very sarcastic voice and rolling eyes:


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Chubbypony, that's not you, right? You ere just using the pic as an example?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I have to wonder how many times you are going to start threads on this......?


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Chubbypony, that's not you, right? You ere just using the pic as an example?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NOO oh god no. I dont like to judge others training methods but this was just one that made me cringe.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Whew! So glad! 

Breeze, why do you keep asking the same questions again and again? The answers are pretty similar in each thread...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

As a reining horse breeder and showing mine. They are all started at 2. By doing this and doing it correctly you can take things slower. I would rather start one at 2 and allow them to progress at their own pace and slow then to start them latter and have them pushed harder. 

It is all in how you do it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> The very good trainer you are referring to is NOT a very GOOD trainer if she is putting weight on 2 yr olds.
> 
> The 2 year old has never existed and never will that's ready to bear weight as a 2 yr old. Most 3 yr olds are not ready.
> 
> ...


This is the most uneducated statement I have ever seen. I have had a lot of horses started at 2 with no problems. I know even more who are started at 2 with no problems. While there are some who do not make it when started at 2 they probably would not have stayed sound regardless of when they where started. There are a lot of factors that go into keeping a horse sound regardless of when they are started.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

We have a filly we rescued, Millie (because she came from Milmar Ranch). Vet said she was 2 and probably an Appendix. She was completely fearful and didn't look good. We gave her supplements and 1 1/2 years to grow. Just started backing her and she is doing well but she is still tall, stringy, and such a baby! Glad we waited, but we have 3 other well rained horses to ride. Mostly we pony Millie when we trail ride. 

You sound like you have decided to start Breezy, and I'm sure it will be fine. Not everyone will agree with that but you don't need 100% approval rating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Whew! So glad!
> 
> Breeze, why do you keep asking the same questions again and again? The answers are pretty similar in each thread...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not asking the same question over and over again. Sure, I may post threads based around the same thing, but each thread has a different question. Also, every thread has way different answers.

As for making up my mind, yes, I have decided to break Breeze at 2 BUT that is only if the vet says she is good to go. If her knees are not closed, and her back and teeth are not good, I will wait.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

" You want to set her straight?? Well why stop at her,Starting 2 yr olds IS common practice of most western stock horse trainers & racehorse folk,agree with it or no"

You bet, I'll turn everyone of them in that I can find. The humane societies are starting to step in and do something about this abuse. 

The race horses are the worst, they are, at least, humane enough to destroy them after they ruin them. So many others let them suffer a lifetime, and what's worse, wonder what happened to them.

It may be common practice, but it needs to stop, and the only way it will stop is to bring it to the attention of the agencies that can do something about it. I do not like the goodie two shoes, in so many of these agencies and the absurbities they do. Just maybe we can get them to do some good for these abused horses.

Haven't you ever wondered why 95% of all quarter stock become navicular in their early 20's, and many of them before that. And why we see so many big lick horses with broken down hocks at very young ages. I don't agree with the big licks either, but those that are started when they are mature, have very few problems, as compared to those started as 2 yr olds or younger. Since the very large number of big bucks left the big lick horses, the humane societies and whole bunch of other groups, have come out against their practices. Same thing, needs to happen to the western stock that are started as 2 yr olds.

If you really want to see 1000's of them, just visit the sale barns, or get to know someone at a race training facility that will tell you the truth, or visit some of these rescue facilities(not all of them are there, because they were underfed). Or visit some of the large big lick training facilities. Or visit some of the rendering plants close to race tracks. You don't have to look very hard to find them. 

There is a race training facility about 2 hours from here that destroyed over 500 head in one year because they broke down in training for the 2 yr old races.

Enough, I've said my peace, getting off the soap box.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Your statement about 95% of quarter horses having navicular is highly incorrect. Almost all the horses I have seen started and helps start myself are stock horses. NOT A SINGLE ONE IS LAME. In their 20's and pushing 30's. Also, what do you make of the thousands of retried racehorses that go on to a second career and DO stay sound in their 20's? Are they non existent? Because I know several. I believe that if done CORRECTLY and SLOWLY you will not have a lame horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

Most horses I know are broke at 2, usually 2.5. I start mine at 2.5, I don't usually push them hard or ride consistently. I may ride for 3 days then they stay in the pasture for 2 weeks. I didn't really start consistently riding my now 3 year old until late December. Most horses have no problems in life if their started at 2, and still compete into their 20s. It really depends on how their started.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> " You want to set her straight?? Well why stop at her,Starting 2 yr olds IS common practice of most western stock horse trainers & racehorse folk,agree with it or no"
> 
> You bet, I'll turn everyone of them in that I can find. The humane societies are starting to step in and do something about this abuse.
> 
> ...


Please show a link to that number? While I know that horses brake down as I live in the real work. That number does not make any sense for several reasons. 1 no one facility would have that many 2yo in training. Nor would that go un notices by the media. So there should be a link to a report about that.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

What kind of tests will your vet run? X-rays to check the bone growth, I'm assuming? Sounds expensive. 

I'd rather wait another year.

Why people who can't seem to wait for a horse to mature buy young stock is beyond me. Why not just buy a 3 or 4 year old?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> " You want to set her straight?? Well why stop at her,Starting 2 yr olds IS common practice of most western stock horse trainers & racehorse folk,agree with it or no"
> 
> You bet, I'll turn everyone of them in that I can find. The humane societies are starting to step in and do something about this abuse.
> 
> ...


1. Please don't compare starting 2 year olds to the TB racers who are started and pushed at 1 1/2. Usually racers are ridden once a day for 2 hours. My 2 year old was ridden 10 minutes a day every so often.

2. Actually I've seen MANY OTTBs that were started at 1 1/2 and are in their late 20's and still being ridden! I actually knew one that was 30 and was still ridden...

3. As nrhareiner said, you don't sound educated in your post. Don't be criticizing others if you don't know what your talking about.


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

I can think of much better things to call abuse and get worked up about in the horse world, than starting a 2 year old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> What kind of tests will your vet run? X-rays to check the bone growth, I'm assuming? Sounds expensive.
> *Checking to see of the joints have closed. Not all that expensive. Depending on your vet.*
> I'd rather wait another year.
> *Even waiting anouther year does not negate the need to do this. *
> ...


First I want my horses well started by the time they are 3 or 4. Next I breed my own prospects. There is no way that I could afford to buy a 3 or 4 yo and they would have been started by that age anyway. 

It is beyond me why people think starting a 2yo properly is such a bad thing. Again have been doing it for close to 2 decades and I know people who have been doing it for well over 4-5 decadeds with little to no problem.


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## Kathe Smothers (Feb 2, 2013)

I have been taught through my years with Buck Brannaman that starting a two year old is ok if the work load is not to much. Buck recommends that you get on the two year old move him around, bend him right and left, maybe do a little trotting and then put them up until they are 3. With this kind of start the are use to you being above them and use to you being on their backs but they are not overworked. Remember the growth plates on a horse close from the ground up the knee growth plates close between two and two and a half. The pelvis/hip plates being the last to close after the age of 5. So be easy and go slow. I would recommend by how you are explaining your work that you spend the money and buy Buck's Groundworking Tape and First Ride. Using these methods may be more suitable for your horse and safer for you then the way you are going about it.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

My grandmother's been breaking two year olds for close to 30 years and never seen an issue. Granted, we do judge by the individual horse to see when they're ready, as anybody should. But again, most of those horses are still in their homes and still competing or trail riding heavily.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Haven't you ever wondered why 95% of all quarter stock become navicular in their early 20's, and many of them before that.


I would suggest other factors are highly involved in navicular horses, such as conformation and shoeing.

*Personally* I think breeding for horses with light bone, small feet and upright pasterns, as well as shoeing them at age 2 and never letting them grow a wide, healthy foot has more to do with it then actually _starting _them at age 2. But that's just my own personal beliefs.

Give me a big boned horse with large healthy feet any day of the week. I don't see that as much in Quarter Horses as I would like. A lot of them have large bodies on baby feet.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> I would suggest other factors are highly involved in navicular horses, such as conformation and shoeing.
> 
> *Personally* I think breeding for horses with light bone, small feet and upright pasterns, as well as shoeing them at age 2 and never letting them grow a wide, healthy foot has more to do with it then actually _starting _them at age 2. But that's just my own personal beliefs.
> 
> Give me a big boned horse with large healthy feet any day of the week. I don't see that as much in Quarter Horses as I would like. A lot of them have large bodies on baby feet.


Sounds like your mainly talking about the AQHA Halter horses....yuck...Many of them aren't ridden due to sound issues and having shoes on as yearlings. I've even heard of weanlings with shoes. :-|

The pleasure horses at our barn, who are bred for the same thing, don't have big bodies on small feet. 

But I do agree, if the horse is going to be shod and have small feet with big bodies, its a given that the horse will be unsound in the time.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

I really do not appreciated being call not educated. That's totally uncalled for. It was getting more education about the problems caused by early weight bearing and over weight horses, that eventually knocked some sense in to my also thick skull.

I've been training horses for over 50 years, and was guilty of starting 2 yr olds, also. Never thought it hurt anything. Then about 20 years ago, I started working a little smarter and not as hard, and got out more to see what's going on out there, and started noticing how many horses were having problems way too young. Yes, there are always those that claim their's never have a problem, BUT there are far too many that do have problems, because of the weight bearing before they are mature enough to handle the weight.

I see a lot of abuse. In my opinion, and based on seeing a lot of them, the worst abuse horses have are one: bearing weight to young, and two: over weight. I don't really have a feel for which one causes more problems, but they both exceed the number of underfed, or those that are subjected to cruel training methods.

I am very serious, if you do not want to be investigated by one of the many human societies, DON'T admit it on a public forum. My words are falling on deaf ears, just as others did when I was start 2 yr olds, and ignored the words of those that objected to the practice.

There is a big difference between me now, and me of years past. I want to see the practice stopped. And have more time to devote to the cause. I know, I'll never get anywhere with the race horses and the big bucks behind them. But the rest of you, I will do every thing I can to stop the practice. Unlike so many that just object to the practice, I do initiate investigative actions.

And, we now have a bunch of goodie two shoes that delight in investigating animal abuse, and I'm doing my best to give them something meaningful to investigate. If you want to be next, and think you have nothing to worry about, just post your address, and I'll make sure you get a visit from your local animal abuse investigator.


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## HorseGuru (Feb 28, 2012)

U guys are crazy 


Fighting on a forum about when to break a horse is ridiculous. The best time to start working them is around 2 1/2. Light work. 


Geez bet you half the people on here putting in the "views" have never broke a horse.


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

HorseGuru said:


> The best time to start working them is around 2 1/2. *Light work. *


 Perhaps it's the duration and intensity of a 2-year-old's training program that needs to be addressed rather than age alone. 

In my opinion, you can wreck a horse by training too hard and too fast just as easily at 6 as you can at 2. To me, considering _technique_ is far more important than _age_. And I don't think very many people who are starting 2-year-olds are setting a saddle on them and then expecting them to compete full-time two weeks later.:?

As someone said in a previous post, many of these horses are investments that are far too valuable to squander on detrimental training practices.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> I really do not appreciated being call not educated. That's totally uncalled for. It was getting more education about the problems caused by early weight bearing and over weight horses, that eventually knocked some sense in to my also thick skull.
> 
> I've been training horses for over 50 years, and was guilty of starting 2 yr olds, also. Never thought it hurt anything. Then about 20 years ago, I started working a little smarter and not as hard, and got out more to see what's going on out there, and started noticing how many horses were having problems way too young. Yes, there are always those that claim their's never have a problem, BUT there are far too many that do have problems, because of the weight bearing before they are mature enough to handle the weight.
> 
> ...


Ya you just do that and make sure you leave your name so they can charge you with a false report and put you in the hot seat. Again since there is no law against riding a 2yo there is nothing that you or any one can do. Each state varies in their laws and how strict they are in regards to abuse. However I will stated again as you seem to not be hearing it. Since there is no laws on the books regarding riding a 2yo and it does not fall under the definition of abuse you are wasting your time and the law enforcement officers that might be sent out to investigate and in most states filling a false police report is a crime punishable under the law.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JaphyJaphy said:


> Perhaps it's the duration and intensity of a 2-year-old's training program that needs to be addressed rather than age alone.
> 
> In my opinion, you can wreck a horse by training too hard and too fast just as easily at 6 as you can at 2. To me, considering _technique_ is far more important than _age_. And I don't think very many people who are starting 2-year-olds are setting a saddle on them and then expecting them to compete full-time two weeks later.:?
> 
> As someone said in a previous post, many of these horses are investments that are far too valuable to squander on detrimental training practices.


This is very true. I have seen more people start a 6yo and expect that horse to work harder and longer when being started then what you would do with a 2yo. The horses started latter are pushed harder b/c people think it is ok b/c they are older. Fact is you can injure an older horse just as easy and fast as you can a 2yo. In my experience it is even more likely that an older horse will get injured easier for the simple reason they do not recover as fast as a younger horse from being worked. Just think about it. Do you recover as fast from a work out now as you did when you where younger? Horses learn faster as a younger age too just like kids. Just like a little kid will pick a foreign language faster then an adult. Younge horses learn easier and faster. They are more able to do the work asked and recuperate faster then an older horse.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Feel free to come arrest me for breaking my babies at two. The first time I sat on my colt(now gelding) was when he was 22 months. We have a two/three(thinking closer to two, actually) year old that will be lightly started this spring. Like nrhareiner said, please back up your statements with facts. I have, I have given examples that I have personally seen. I also agree that sometimes people end up with lame horses when they start them later, thinking they can handle more and don't take the necessary precautions with them. Any two year old I start might get 30-60 days on it between spring and late fall. Sue me.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> And, we now have a bunch of goodie two shoes that delight in investigating animal abuse, and I'm doing my best to give them something meaningful to investigate. If you want to be next, and think you have nothing to worry about, just post your address, and I'll make sure you get a visit from your local animal abuse investigator.


Maybe the reason why there are still a lot of horses who are starving and are actually being abused out there are not getting attention because people like you who go calling animal abuse investigators about riding 2 year olds.

Seriously why does it matter to you what age people ride their horses.

If its so cruel then come and arrest me. Because my horse is in such abuse and is so highly mistreated. 









She definitely looks mistreated.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Started at 2


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

I do not see any addresses.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

If a horse is ready to be broken, no matter what age... why should you wait? A good horse that is physically and mentally ready should not be thrown out in pasture for a few years, when it is ready now... if you get what I am saying. Yes, there are many many other things I could be doing with my filly, but mixing it up a little will give her something to think about and keep her active and wanting to do it.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> I do not see any addresses.


And you think people here are stupid enough to give you their address on an OPEN FORUM?? :shock::shock:

You really do need to stop threatening people on this site though. You are just posting hyperbole to get a huge fight going.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bbsmfg3 said:


> I do not see any addresses.


If you really want to call the authorities go for it. It is not hard to track people down. Heck I just posted a picture that should give you a good idea of who I am. 

However you have not gotten the point. It is will do no good. There is no one to call. If you do not get that then I feel bad for you. As ex law enforcement I will tell you exactly what will happen. You will call and file a report. Then when it is found to be fraudulent they will come looking for you. Since filling a false report is illegal and riding a 2yo is not you are the one who will be in trouble. If you really want that then go for it.


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

I have a friend who works for the humane society. They are not going to do anything, at my/her barn their were four 2 year olds being rode last year. They are now 3. It's hard enough to get people for starving their horses, let alone riding perfectly healthy 2 year olds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is the mare at 2 at trainers.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Started at 2.









His son started at 2.


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

I haven't read through everything but I do have a comment about how we ride our new youngsters... I am a believer in get the bare basics in the arena and then GET OUT. I believe that not only does trail riding offer much more dynamic mental stimulation to better develop a well-rounded mind, but that the uneven terrain teaches them to pay attention to their feet, and builds stronger dynamic muscle development. 

Our Gotland pony gelding will be turning 3 this spring. His first year included halter/lead training, tying, groundwork and having our 25-lb toddler on his back. His 2nd summer saw him dallied to our horses in the arena hauling our son around, trailering to two local shows for leadline and halter, and finally two hour-long trail rides dallied with our son on his back. He's had some growth already this winter that impresses me. If he's grown enough physically, he'll be sent to skool for bitting/bridling and learning about leg aids and actually being ridden, as opposed to just ligging a passenger around. Or son is now 37 lbs and just might be ready to start learning aids... He's a little difgicult to keep focused, but if I set up some games and obstacles, it might help.

This pony's mind has impressed me every single step of the way. He's like a wise old soul. He does test once in a while and is still baby-brained, I'm not putting that much credit to him. His physical development has been very different from any horse. He grows completely proportionate. The only way I know to measure him is that he'll all of a sudden use up his hay belly, and sure enough, he stands taller beside me, lol. Love that little horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cobra (Jan 30, 2013)

I have to say i am still debating this idea - it varies depending on the horse, rider and trainer. IF the horse is mature enough, and ready developmentally then i would start him around the 2-2 1/2 age. ONLY for short rides, basic training - stop, walk, trot, etc. For brief periods of time, no more that 20 mins or so max. This is IF the rider is not a strain on the horse (too heavy for the horse), and if they know how to handle youngsters. In other cases, if the horse is not mature enough or if the rider is too heavy, etc then i would wait till the 3-4yo mark. It really depends on the horse's, rider's and trainer's abilities. Btw, there is nothing AC or SPCA, etc can do about ppl starting a healthy, sound, 2yo. Race horses, malnourished or unsound horses, or horses trained with inhumane methods are another story. Not to say that all race horses are mistreated, but imho many are started and pushed too hard too early.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Hey, OP, where in Sask. are you located?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

My 2 year old from last year:








Since we're sharing pictures....


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## donovan (Jun 11, 2009)

i belive you should listen to your horse and they will tell you when they are ready.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

It is very true, that getting the riding of 2 yr olds the attention it deserves is not easy. I have been successful in getting a few barns shut down for the practice, and a few successes make it worth while. And I see there are still no addresses. I don't do the investigating, that's the job of the different societies. I just point them in the direction of abuse. It is also true that the abuse is getting more interest from some very knowledgeable horseman, vets, and universities. This make it a bit easier to give the investigators some ammunition to work with.

What amazes me is the defensiveness of the offenders. I know when I got called on the practice, I sure didn't fight back. I shut up and went looking for answers.

It would seem the knowledgeable horseman would do some research of their own and see the problems they are causing.

Here's just one of many articles on the subject. There are many, many, more. 

this is from the Weber Training Stables. this is only the first of the article
you can google it if you'd like to read the rest of the article.

"
*The potential consequences of starting a horse under saddle too young.
*​ 
Today, more and more, the big money futurities for performance horses are for three-year-olds, so in order to be competitive, these horses MUST be started as two-year-olds, and sometimes even when they are long-yearlings (18-24 months old). Because of this, many of these horses end up with bowed tendons, Navicular Syndrome, bone spavins, bone chips, stifle injuries, blown-out hocks, hairline fractures, arthritis, severe back problems, sprained necks and a myriad of other problems and conditions associated with stress and strain to young, developing bodies. Many horses will end up with debilitating problems at only four or five-years-old and already receiving anti-inflammatory medications and/or painkillers on a daily basis in their feed, or in the form of injections. Some older horses, in their teens, will develop problems that can be traced directly back to being started too young and too hard. It will take 10 or so years for the stresses they experienced when younger to appear as problematic

Even at two and a half years old a horse is still just a teenager. He’s not physically mature, nor will he be completely mature, until he’s at least six. In spite of what many in the horse industry believe, all horses regardless of breed mature skeletally at the same rate. Even the most conscientious of horse owner concentrate their concern on a horse’s developing legs, but growth plates are not just in a horse’s knee. There is a growth plate on either end of every bone starting behind the skull, and continuing throughout the remaining skeletal areas. In the case of some bones like the pelvis there are multiple growth plates. Taking the age of final maturity which ranges between 4 – 6 years of age into consideration, as well as the rate of bone fusion in the growth plates, ideally a horse shouldn’t be ridden and worked regularly until the minimal age of four. This does not mean you have to wait until all growth plates are converted to bone, but the longer you wait the safer you will be. There is a definite schedule of fusion and the decision to ride a horse should be based on that rather than external appearance of the horse. Many breeds like the quarter horse are bred in such a manner they appear mature long before they actually are mature. This puts these horses in jeopardy from people who are either ignorant of the closure schedule or more interested with their own schedule than they are in the welfare of the animal."


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I call you getting any thing shut down BS. As there is no law against it and it is not considered abuse by any definition under any law I have ever seen.

If any barn was shut down it was not b/c they where riding 2yo. There was something more going on.

If you can not figure things out for yourself then I am not going to put my address on a public forum but being I have given enough info over the years it is not hard to figure out as many have contacted me privetlly out side this forum for information and advice. 

An article from a training stable is not research. Again you are not helping anything or any one. You. You are just trying to bully people into thinking what you think. Even though you have NO FACTS. Someones opinion on the net is not fact.

Also if you wanted to shut down barns that ride 2yo they are all over. Get your head out of your... This is not abuse. It is called training. Been doing it for years. I know a lot of breeders and trainers who do the same. 


Again all the pictures I posted are of horses I have owned and or still own that have been started as 2yo. The ones I still own have and will vet clean. SO if that being said if it so bad then why are these horses vetting clean into their 20's??


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

We can beat around the bush on this for days and years. Breaking 2 year olds is going to happen. Like it or not. I'm kind of surprised that a mod hasn't stepped in yet about this. We can go around on this till we are blue in the face. Each of us have our opinions on this and it doesn't look like anyone is going to change their view. Agree to disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Some food for thought....

I had a friend start her horse at about 4 years old, more like 5. Once she started her horse she had all sorts of trouble. This horse was so hard to train and wasn't nearly as bad as he was as a 2 year old.

I've always found that people who wait to ride their horses (when I say wait I'm talking at least until 4, 5) they work their horses 10x if not more than what we work our youngsters with the same results. 

My 3 year old (started at 2) is a sponge. I don't need to push her. It took me one day to teach her to stop with my seat. And it took me a week for her to learn how to neck rein. You know how long I rode her? 10 minutes about 3x a week. My friend with the 4 year old? It took her about a month for her horse to stop with her seat, about a hour or two of riding every day.

People who wait usually have to push their horse more than what people who ride at a younger age.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Some food for thought....
> 
> I had a friend start her horse at about 4 years old, more like 5. Once she started her horse she had all sorts of trouble. This horse was so hard to train and wasn't nearly as bad as he was as a 2 year old.
> 
> ...


That might be true for those situations but every horse is different. I dont think it is worth debating over though. 

IMO It has a lot to do with breeding/breed. Ive seen a lot of "halter" bred horses broke at 2 that come out with problems later in life. That does not mean every halter horse broke at two retires at ten. All horses grow differently and all trainers train differently. IMO I try to be overly cautious of possible things I do that could effect my horse in a negative way (mental or physical).


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Do not know anyone who brakes halter horses at 2. Heck most are never broke to ride. Riding a halter horse changes their muscle and makes it harder for them to hold that weight. So using a halter horse as an example is not a good argument.

All you have to do it go and look at all the Green Rookie lower level non pro reiners and youth horses still going strong. The vast majority of those horses where started at 2.

I also agree that it is easy to train a younger horse vs an older horse. Just like kids learn things easier then adults do.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> Do not know anyone who brakes halter horses at 2. Heck most are never broke to ride. Riding a halter horse changes their muscle and makes it harder for them to hold that weight. So using a halter horse as an example is not a good argument.
> 
> All you have to do it go and look at all the Green Rookie lower level non pro reiners and youth horses still going strong. The vast majority of those horses where started at 2.
> 
> I also agree that it is easy to train a younger horse vs an older horse. Just like kids learn things easier then adults do.


Ive meet and owned horses who had issues that had halter blood lines maybe did not make it to do halter but were broke to early and IMO due to their confirmation should have waited until they were older. But IMO if you are a good trainer even if you break at two knows better if a horse needs more time. No matter what bad training is bad training at no matter what age.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree. Bad training is bad training. Starting a horse slow and correct is the key. However just b/c a horse is a few halter lines in them does not make them a halter horse. So saying they are a halter horse would not be factual. Te my stallion has some Halter lines but he also has some running lines cow lines and reining lines. Does not make him a halter horse or a race horse or a reiner. His training is what makes him what he is to a large extent and the pedigree helps in some areas and hurts on others. He was started as a 2yo and is 23 this year. That horse would still vet clean.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I’ll give you my address, I start training horses as wieners, don’t ride them too much at that time, my feet tend to drag along the ground (yes I am being facetious). 
Address: 1060 West Addison St, Chicago, IL 60613, United States.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

My trainer has 2 mares she is really focusing on getting running. 1 a 5 coming 6 yr old black mare she got at 4. She had been started but her knees were very over at the knee and not closed so she is just now ( since june) started really patterning her. This mare is still seriously immature though has a decent head for being almost completely race bred. Now her 4 coming 5 yr old palomino mare has been on the pattern for quite awhile and all closed up and very mature for her age. So i agree if physically and mentally they are ready then by all means go ahead but some just aren't.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

So by bbsmfg3's reckoning, my old BO's 33yo QH gelding, who was broke as a 2yo and is still giving trail rides to little kids, should be a navicular mess. Yeah, he's one of the healthiest horses I've ever met. 
Has anyone else noticed that bbsmfg3 has yet to provide any real, pertinent facts regarding their position? That article appeared to be about futurity horses, not someone's backyard trail buddy or low level competition horse that's brought along slow. I don't regret starting my boy as a 2yo and in fact, the vet who gelded him urged us to start him soon after he was gelded (he was gelded a month or so after he turned 2) because he'd be easier to handle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

I am against riding two year olds.


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

usandpets said:


> Did google search and found these that are all suppose to mean sarcasm:
> u.u (without Yo. Stupid smartphone won't put (u.u)
> ssf
> :s)
> ...


Where I hang out this / at the end denotes sarcasm.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

My town is right in my info. Like I said feel free to come arrest me for breaking my happy, healthy a.d sound babies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

The oldest horse we have at the ranch is a 33 year old ottb. He's still sound. He was retired this year, but still comes out for the occasional lesson. Actually, he let out a playful buck a few weeks ago and left his student on the ground laughing. He's not on bute or anything. I recently started my friends filly for her. She's a coming 3 year old. I rode her twice a week for her first 5 rides. She had about 2 months off and I just recently put two more rides on her. Now, at ride 7 she will stop with my seat and voice, yield hind quarters and forehand as well as side pass. Actually, I tried closing a gate on her last ride and by golly she did it!! Imagine that. She has trotted a little bit, by little bit I mean twice around the round pen is the most in one ride. Usually only a few steps. I don't think I've ridden her more then 20 mins at a time, at the very most! Training is about quality and effectiveness, not the amount of time when it comes to babies. I have a coming 3 year old at home who I'll be starting this summer. I plan to start her, riding about twice a week for very short rides. And then giving her the winter off. There's nothing wrong with putting a good, light foundation on them and then letting them grow up IMO. As nrhareiner said, I'd rather go slow and easy then have to push hard and fast. That's how you end up laming a horse, no matter the age.


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