# Would you ever breed a PSSM horse?



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Discussion time! 

I was sold my mare, Baby Girl, four years ago by a wonderful man who breeds and raises young horses. He's bred more mares than I can count over the years, and always produces top quality babies. The point I'm making is that he's no "back yard breeder." He is a "home breeder."

Yesterday, he threw up the idea of breeding my mare. She's eight now, so it's no rush. But he offered to pay vet expenses, stud fees, etc., under the condition he got the baby. Like a breeding lease, I suppose. This is not a set in stone idea by any means. Just something he threw out there, because he adores my mare.

Baby Girl has good conformation, an amazing disposition, and an enormous show record. Her bloodlines are pretty nice too. Her sire was a multi world grand champion SSH sport horse, and her damsire is a 7x world champion model and fine harness horse. 

I would be okay with this (in a few years) except for one little thing:

Baby Girl has PSSM2. The exact method of inheritance in PSSM2 isn't as well understood as PSSM1. It's genetic, but it doesn't seem to be a dominate trait like PSSM1. The underlying genetic mutation is yet to be identified. 

Her PSSM is well controlled. She hasn't tied up in two years, and her only symptom that has not dissipated with diet therapy is difficulty cantering. She lives a very monitored life. 

But no horse is guaranteed a monitored life. (Her care and maintenance requirements are of a similar intensity to those of a founder risk horse.)

So let's talk about breeding genetic mutations! This will be fun. It's a sticky ethical question in the horse breeding world. What mutations/diseases are okay to breed, if any? Under what conditions? Is a genetic disease an instant disqualifying factor, or can a horse be excellent enough to breed despite its flaws?


----------



## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

No I wouldn't personally there are too many nice horses that are negative. But that is just me i don't breed not will I ever most likely .


----------



## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

I personally would just say no, just because as BarrelracingArabian said, there are tons of good horses out there that are negative. 

But, if this was a world grand champion with bloodlines that might be in jeopardy of never being seen again, I'd probably make an exception. That could also be a mistake though because you're not only prolonging the grand-champion genes but the disease causing genes as well =/


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

As long as the stallion was clear (and I'd want to see test results), then I'd be OK with it if he was super stellar. The worst would be n/PSSM2, and that should be very mild to asymptomatic.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

For me...personally no. I prefer breeding genetically clear horses in all aspects.

but i am not familiar with.pssm at all...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I wouldn't. I can't speak for him (Breeder guy xD), but there are plenty of nice horses already on the ground to choose from.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

My thoughts are the same as many above. It's not something I would do because it has the potential to affect the quality of life for the resulting foal whether it be just mild symptoms or severe. I also really don't know a ton about PSSM, but I would prefer to breed horses with no known genetic diseases.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I agree with Dreamcatcher. If the stallion is clear then most likely the foal would no be affected. Shalom


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> I agree with Dreamcatcher. If the stallion is clear then most likely the foal would no be affected. Shalom


My thoughts on it were: PSSM 2 to Clear = N/N 50% and N/P 50%. If the foal is only carrying 1 copy of the gene, then most likely it will not be too severely affected and since it's a known trait, fairly easily managed through diet and careful fitting, to minimize any chances of tying up. Of course, it goes without saying, the party breeding the PSSM2 horse discloses all known info to the potential breeder of the foal and gives copies of any testing. 

Just for curiosity's sake, OP, how did you find that your mare is PSSM 2 positive?


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

PSSM2 is not genetic. The only way to say a horse has it is if they have the symptoms of PSSM1 but no genetic marker (or gene) for it. So it may not TECHNICALLY be genetic but I would pass. She may be amazing but if the foal got it I don't think the breeder would be happy. Then that foal's quality of life could be in question.


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Just curious if you did the deal what do you gain from breeding her?


----------



## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> Just curious if you did the deal what do you gain from breeding her?



That was what I was wondering. I mean, you risk losing your mare, I hope you are getting something to make it worth the risk.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> My thoughts on it were: PSSM 2 to Clear = N/N 50% and N/P 50%. If the foal is only carrying 1 copy of the gene, then most likely it will not be too severely affected and since it's a known trait, fairly easily managed through diet and careful fitting, to minimize any chances of tying up. Of course, it goes without saying, the party breeding the PSSM2 horse discloses all known info to the potential breeder of the foal and gives copies of any testing.
> 
> Just for curiosity's sake, OP, how did you find that your mare is PSSM 2 positive?


She tied up very severely two years ago. Before that, I noticed signs: muscle atrophy, exercise intolerance, difficulty engaging the hind end, stringhalt, locking stifles, difficultly laying down and rising again, soreness... Tons of signs I feel stupid for over looking nowadays. 

The vet tested her for PSSM1, but she was negative. She tied up again, mildly, two or three more times. We started her on diet therapy, and four weeks later she was a different horse. I never got a biopsy done (expensive and invasive), and my vet said that PSSM2 was a safe inference based on symptoms and response to treatment.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Just curious if you did the deal what do you gain from breeding her?



If I hypothetically did this tomorrow, $2000 for the foal as soon as it hits the ground, in addition to having all breeding expenses covered. If I continue to show my mare, the price of that foal will go up. 

So to gain... Money, and a good home for my mare for the time she is pregnant and raising the baby. 

The possibility of losing her is real. That and the PSSM are two factors that concern me the most.


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Brighteyes said:


> If I hypothetically did this tomorrow, $2000 for the foal as soon as it hits the ground, in addition to having all breeding expenses covered. If I continue to show my mare, the price of that foal will go up.
> 
> So to gain... Money, and a good home for my mare for the time she is pregnant and raising the baby.
> 
> The possibility of losing her is real. That and the PSSM are two factors that concern me the most.


. I'm confused. He will guarantee you 2k for the use of your mares uterus and agreed to pay more if her show career improves? How would you come up with the raised price?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Brighteyes said:


> She tied up very severely two years ago. Before that, I noticed signs: muscle atrophy, exercise intolerance, difficulty engaging the hind end, stringhalt, locking stifles, difficultly laying down and rising again, soreness... Tons of signs I feel stupid for over looking nowadays.
> 
> The vet tested her for PSSM1, but she was negative. She tied up again, mildly, two or three more times. We started her on diet therapy, and four weeks later she was a different horse. I never got a biopsy done (expensive and invasive), and my vet said that PSSM2 was a safe inference based on symptoms and response to treatment.


Ok, that's what I was wondering about. I knew the muscle biopsy was pretty much the only way to tell for sure and was curious if the vet went ahead with it or if it was a evidence based diagnosis. Sounds like a safe call to me too.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Brighteyes said:


> If I hypothetically did this tomorrow, $2000 for the foal as soon as it hits the ground, in addition to having all breeding expenses covered. If I continue to show my mare, the price of that foal will go up.
> 
> So to gain... Money, and a good home for my mare for the time she is pregnant and raising the baby.
> 
> The possibility of losing her is real. That and the PSSM are two factors that concern me the most.


The possibility of losing the mare is pretty slim. However, I would not permit her to be kept off premises while she was in foal and to foal out, I've just heard too many horror stories of breed leases gone wrong. I would agree to let him have the foal on weaning but he'd pay the lease fee and all her costs while she remained at home. To get someone to actually pay to use the mare in this economy is a pretty good deal. I would do NOTHING without a contract though. 

The PSSM is manageable if the foal even inherits it. As long as his stallion has no issues on that score, I wouldn't even worry about that, as long as you tell him about it. Document it in the contract too, that way he can never say you didn't disclose.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

He agreed to pay $2000 for the foal itself. For the use of her as a broodmare ("renting her womb" fee), a price hasn't been put on that yet. He mentioned himself that if her show career improved, her foal would be worth more, and he would "pay me what it's worth." So basically he is buying the foal in utero, at whatever price he and I deem fair.

Again, this is a plan in its infancy. Details haven't been ironed out. If/when they do, it will all be in a contract. I've fully disclosed her PSSM status to him before, and I can give him my vet's number if he wants to chat. :wink: I've got nothing to hide. Right now, I'm just working out my ethical position on breeding PSSM horses.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I would say no. There are lots of horses that don't have genetic conditions that can be bred. In addition, 2k is not that much to spend on a foal in my opinion. It would not be worth the risk to the mare or the foals quality of life. I mean 2K is the cost of a stud fee for some quality stallions.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I would do it if just to give the mare a job for the next year and a half.
In fact i made a deal very similar to this and the foal is expected this june.
One mare off my feed bill and they take care of all the vet expenses. Saved me a couple thousand on top of the foals price. Shalom


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

2k for a foal is actually pretty high end around here. Especially if the stud fee/vet fees were already paid for by the person wanting the foal. 

Like the above poster said... The temptation to get a mare off my feed bill is also quite a draw. I'm going to college, and I don't know if I'll be able to support keeping _and _showing this horse. It would be a shame to "waste" a mare for a year or two. The money I'd saved with her off my hands would be unreal... Thousands, plus what I'd get out of the breeding lease and foal sale.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Brighteyes said:


> 2k for a foal is actually pretty high end around here. Especially if the stud fee/vet fees were already paid for by the person wanting the foal.
> 
> Like the above poster said... The temptation to get a mare off my feed bill is also quite a draw. I'm going to college, and I don't know if I'll be able to support keeping _and _showing this horse. It would be a shame to "waste" a mare for a year or two. The money I'd saved with her off my hands would be unreal... Thousands, plus what I'd get out of the breeding lease and foal sale.


Really, there isn't a downside. Is he close enough you could visit your mare and keep an eye on things?


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Really, there isn't a downside. Is he close enough you could visit your mare and keep an eye on things?




He's five hours away from where I'll be at college, but I plan to come home for a weekend out of every month. I have plenty of friends in town who would definitely tell me if they thought something was up. Overall, I trust this guy, and I would be comfortable seeing my mare every four weeks.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Sounds like you have things pretty well covered.


----------



## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

The ONLY genetic mutation I would ever breed to would be an OWLS positive mare or stallion. As long as the other parent is negative it is a non-issue. With things like PSSM, HYPP, and others your are knowingly producing a horse that is going to have some kind of issue. They are literally a ticking time bomb. Why produce something like that when there are so many horses with no genetic issues that need homes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I would not ever breed my EPSM horse. She is my perfect dream horse and the temptation for her to give me a baby would make me soooo happy!!! However, the risk to her or bringing another foal into this world that may have problems is NOT worth it. There are no guarantees, I don't care what the percentages are....

There are so many horses in this world that need homes and a chance.


----------



## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Breeding (IMO), is a game of chances- nothing is guaranteed other than expense.

Your mare may die- leaving you with only what he pays for her lease as compensation (unless you take out insurance for her & incorporate it into the lease fee), she may not die & you make a bit of money off of her. 
She may have a super foal who is PSSM free, she may have a very average foal whom is badly PSSM affected, or something in-between.

I honestly think you answered your own question in one of your posts- the expense of owning horses is high- she is super fantastic & special to you, so you are willing to do spend extra & put in much more effort, just to keep her sound- what IF the resulting foal IS effected & isnt as super as it's dam (2 out standing horses, dont always breed an outstanding foal- it's just a higher chance of getting an outstanding foal)? 
Would you be happy to own the foal, IF it turns out it is PSSM affected- whether it be outstanding or of average type? 
Would you be ok with finding out the foal is PSSM further down the track?
Because (I think) those questions (rather than the money) is what should guide us when deciding to bred or not (it often saves us a lot of guilt in the long run- even if things dont pan out perfectly, because we took the time to consider worst case & were ok with it)- you have to hope that best, worse case is someone out there will want to knowingly own a PSSM horse (I assume the guy will pass on the there is a 50%chance of it being PSSM if sold), whom is unproven, before falling in love with it (unless the guy wanting to bred your mare is planning on keeping said foal for himself, to ride & show, so doesnt care if he has to look after it the same way you have to care for your horse?), best case is he gets a super foal, whom is PSSM clear.

If the guy is wanting to bred, then sell the foal as a yearling or green broke, personally I wouldnt do it- knowingly breeding a foal with a 50/50 chance of having a condition that adversely affects it (& at least 50% of any other offspring that foal may eventually have- which is out of your control), to be on sold, just isnt a good enough reason to bred a horse- no matter how good it is IMO.
Good luck with what ever you decide


----------

