# Building topline and neck muscle, the thing is....



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Flexing, side to side, and then carrying that flex through walking and trotting. I basically get my horse soft to either side, then I'll go into the walk and push them straight while the head is bent, then once they get good at that, I go onto the jog. The trick is to keep that flexion supple, and not to let them lean on your hand. You can also counter-bend your circles.

And I think every western horse can benefit from "long and low" work. All my pleasure horses go through learning english pleasure, and they are responsible for holding their own frame and headset. I'll push them into the bridle, hold for a couple strides, then I'll loosen the rein and expect them to hold self-carriage. Getting your horse to hold his neck in self carriage will promote building muscle. The difference is that typically Dressage riders will keep constant contact with the bit, while I will release when the horse is "set" and if he falls out, I will pick him back up and release again...

A lot of backing up will help, along with a lot of roll-backs to get that topline in order. And a huxbajillion leg-yields.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think western riders, at least good ones, want the horse on the bit, too. Just that since a curb bit is so very much more powerful, the horse will maintain more of a 'cushin" of distance off the bit itself. But he is still connected to the bit and influenced by a bit that says, "no further than here, please". The good western horse respects the limit set by the bit and is then asked to work up inot the bit, just as a dressage hrose. 
The dressage horse may have a more "intimate" feel on the bit and rein becuase he comes right to the bit, no cusion of space. But, he should not be leaning on the bit any more than a western horse is allowed to lean on the bit. He comes to the bit, but contains the push behind it , by having more lift through his back and shoulders.
You can work on some topline improvements without seriously "pushing him into the bit". the long and low exercizes would have really minimal push. It's more of a "let" than a push, with some more encouragement for the horse to push under himself. For this, it does help to have a connetion to the bit, so that you can tell the horse "not faster, deeper" I think you can do this in a western way with out compromising your training. 

Doing things like hill work and over cavalettie also help with topline. Topline comes from abdominal work, which comes from having to lift the legs higher and more under the centerline of the horse.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

From what know/ have seen, I don't see how even a western horse wouldn't benefit from learning to be on the bit- correct me if I'm wrong, but being on the bit just helps them to carry themselves, the difference between it in english and western (as has been stated) is that in english/ dressage, the contact is kept. 
I can't guarantee what I've said is correct, it's just my opinion based on my current knowledge/ understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## MakinDust23 (Aug 25, 2011)

I believe any good horse can benefit from having english training.....believe it or not I have talked to a lot of NBHA people and the one girl sent her horses to get basic dressage training. it helps them loosen up in the front end, the self carriage, freeing up the shoulders, bending and flexing, being supple in the barrel getting them rounded and also getting them to really engage their hind quarters. i recently sent my mare for 60 days of english training and wow what a difference it has made in her and her performance in the ring!!!! i thought my friend was nuts when she told me to get my mare some english training but i thought about it and said what the heck, im pleased with the results, it has helped a lot especially with her front end she was so heavy and always had dropped shoulders i couldnt get her to lift around barrels but now with the side passing and leg yielding and her being taught a head set im able to control her shoulders


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Dust is right. I personally do a lot of Dressage. Leg yields, half passes, circles and figure eights, counter cantering, and sometimes a little piaffe or a pirouette here or there. If you want your horse to jog super duper slow or lope while still keeping impulsion, Dressage moves are the way to go so long as you teach them to do it on a loose rein.


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## MakinDust23 (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes!! My latest adventures have been attending these reining/cutting clinics and they couldnt drill it into our heads enough about how important circles were big and small alike. Also, trotting, a lot of trotting!!! The 20 meter circle has became a large part of my mares daily work out routine, we also do figure eights too and I have been slowly working on flying lead changes which is rather important when pole bending


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

lol, my poor horses rarely get to make a straight line. And when they do, they are super grateful for it and hold their frames as long as they can... There's nothing like releasing that leg yield, sitting back, and just feeling the horse curl up under himself, reins bouncing off his knees. It's magic.


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

everyone makes it sound like its so easy :/ i would like to say my horse is a handful or the fact that he has never put his head near the height of his withers or lower (unless he's grazing) , but like every good rider says and that i know, its not the horses fault , so i must clearly be doing something wrong. 

I dont have the money for training and i myself, nor anyone in my barn (its FULL of western riders) owns an english saddle. 

also, i ride in a hackamore. so literally speaking, he doesnt have a bit to work behind. 

i do have him doing tons of circle, like someone said before, he rarely goes in a straight line unless hes coming home from the third barrel . lots of figure 8's and serpentines. i dont really have much hills but one in the area and it has a fence at the top :/ 

im not trying to shoot down anyones advice (and i do agree with everything that was said) however i do feel a western horse should learn to yeild leg(as in everything) but as well as bit cues. more so than other disciplines , but i do not know everything. 

do all these things still apply with everything i had just said ?


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

also, i dont want anyone reading to think im a passive rider. i WORK my horse, i dont sit in the saddle and walk around aimlessly or just "do things" in the ring. i have an exercise agenda, and im 99% sure that me and my horse get at LEAST an hour of good honest work in almost everyday. i have rode my horse since i saddle broke him a year and a half ago and he is now a well rounded horse in every way(except his self carriage i guess lol).


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Don't worry, I don't have a trainer either. I learned a lot of this through trial and error and by speaking with other trainers.

Exercises can be done in a hackamore, but you might lack a bit of refinement towards the end of training, but it can be done. I've gotten nice head sets all the time by wearing just a rope halter. It's all the same, you simply have to make the horse sensitive to the device. Pressure and release, hold and release. As soon as you feel the slightest slack in the rein, train yourself to drop.

Flexing side to side is easy in a halter, but if your hackamore has shanks you need to be mindful of the extra pressure. Sometimes a shanked hackamore has more pressure than a simple snaffle. However many inches the shank is, is the amount of pounds per pressure you put on. Snaffle = one pound of pressure per one pound of force. A 5" shanked hackamore = 5 pounds of pressure per one pound of force. 

Your horse might also be build with a naturally higher headset, which is fine, you just need to be mindful of it. He might curl up like a Dressage horse instead of going low like a pleasure horse, but it will still get you the same muscles. Forcing a horse to put his head lower than a few degrees where he naturally holds it will create a bad look.

Think of when you're going around in a circle to make spirals. Push out with your inside leg, and work the inside rein, until he drops his head, lifts his inside, and makes the circle bigger. Then try to push him with the outside leg, keeping working the inside rein and keeping the outside rein firm, and see if he will step into the circle, making it smaller. If he braces against your rein, hold steady contact (not harder) and push the horse up. Always give a set amount of pressure, and then work from behind when the horse does not give to it. Then release.


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

thank you ! that really helps.

and about the low head set, i dont want him to carry his head low, im not into the whole western pleasure look. i want him to be comfortable. however the way he carries his head now definitely does not benefit him, i see no bulge at the base of his neck where i would see one if he was lifting and carrying through his shoulders. his head is always high, but instead of the arch im trying to achieve he holds his face up, more parallel to the floor, rather than just holding his head high and engaging from hind end to nose. 

am i too confusing ? im trying to paint a good picture..


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i know what you are saying. he is coming above the bit. if someone put a bit in your mouth and pulled back and down, you would probably rock your head back (lift you chin) and resist this pull by tightening the muscle in the front of your neck, on either side of the esophogas. Try it. 
That's what your horse is probably doing. Minus a video, this is my guess.

you have to get the horse to lower the whole neck, and break at the poll. But start with lowering the whole neck, and letting him reach forward with his nose. eventually, you ask him to loosen the poll and "break" there. This will be helpful for him to learn how to raise the lower portion of his neck without "giraffing".

I wish I had some good pictures of this.


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

i am trying to upload a video but i just cant get it, i will take pictures tomorrow and post them .


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I do have to agree with Tiny, that western riders do still want contact to some degree. We eventually move our finished horses to a curb, where they're riding with loose reins, but they started out ridden with contact in a snaffle.
Understand that, a well trained horse was started in a snaffle, and with pressure and release, learned to lift their back, and then their head followed their back.

I still, to this day, school my 15yo show horse, in a snaffle, on contact, every now and then just as a refresher on his self carriage.

What's your reason for the hackamore? I really don't think you will effectively achieve this without a bit. 
To build a topline, you have to have a driving hind end, and that _starts_ with some form of contact. As they become more self carried, the contact can go away.

So, if there's not a medical reason for him not to have a bit, I think you should start there. You've gotten a lot of great advice on some exercises, as well.

You don't need an english saddle to school "english" things. Exercises are exercises, doesn't matter the actual discipline. I always will be doing very dressage-y schooling on my pleasure horse, western saddle and all.


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

A western horse is ridden up into the bridle. Just because a person isn't hanging onto their horse's face doesn't mean the horse isn't in the bridle. 

It sounds like your horse is traveling hollow and has probably developed the underside of his neck rather than the muscles along the crest because he has carried himself incorrectly for a long time. He doesn't sound very broke through the body.

Why do you have him in a hackamore (I am assuming a mechanical hack)? Get his teeth checked and stick him in a snaffle or some sort of bit that you can ride him up into. Yes, you will need to hold onto his face at first but you should be driving him up from behind. You should be able to move his parts around individuallly at both the stand still and while in motion. You should be able to move his shoulders to the inside and the outside, and have the same control with his hips. 

Your horse's conformation may also be limiting his ability to carry himself correctly.


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

a bit may be needed but i started him on a hackamore because he is just a totally different horse, his head is much lower then it is in a bit (not low enough though) he doesnt give a pulling yank like he does every few minutes in a bit and he doesnt giraffe as much either, he backs better and stops faster also, he is much more calm, if that makes sense, he tends to speed up and slow down a bit more in a bit, i do not know why. 

i will ride him in a snaffle every other day though, so perhaps as to help him link the two and use what he learns in the snaffle when he rides in a hackamore. also to make the transition to using a bit, less drastic. 

here are some pictures, this was two days ago at a show (please dont comment on my horrible seat, it was our first show ever, both him and me, i was very nervous and he wasnt being the best either) the first picture is the worst ive ever seen him, he almost looks like a ewe neck and he is NOT at all. like i have said he always carries his head high, even when i am not on him. but the combination of being in a bit only 4 days for the first time in months and also the new atmosphere at the show definitely makes a terrible combination.

Can someone please give me some very specific information on how i can help my horse ? 

i dont want him to look "pretty" or anything, if it wasnt harming him to keep his head up , i wouldnt care at all. however i know if he does this much longer and doesnt learn how to carry himself, he will develop wrong and be like this for the rest of his life. i want to do anything i can to assist him in self carriage and benefit him in the long run.

thank you !


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Love,

First of all, your seat is NOT horrible at all and you are turned out really nicely. once your horse gets more comfortable with his head down, you two will be a real eye catching pair.

please don't feel hopeless about this. it is changeable, within his normal range of possible movement. 

The very first thing to think about is to check and recheck the comfort concerns; teeth ok? mouth ok? and saddle fit.

The saddle look a bit far forward in the photos, but it's very hard to judge saddel fit without clear photos, no rider, no pad. That might be a nice thing to do, if you havn'et already (I forget what you have already posted, my memory is terrible!)

If the mouth of the horse is ok, then mabe changing bits is another first line of action. If he's in a single jointed snaffle, consider a french link type. If his mouth is pretty small, consider a relatively thin mouthpiece. one of the Myler comfort snaffles might be a nice thing to try.


As for your riding, if you want to teach him to put his head down on "suggestion" (not on command, but on suggestion) you will want to learn how to really follow his mouth. This means when he raises his head, you must raise your hands , too, to maintain the straight line from elbow to bit. Also, he cannot get away from the bit by raising his head, but on the other hand, you don't try to pull him back down . I see some of that happening in the photos. The ends up putting a lot of pressure on the bars of the horse. Downward pressure. It feels unescapable to the hrose, so he just resists and braces.

If you follow him up with your hands, NOT releasing but not pulling harder , you will have a live, active contact with him . YOu can very slightly tickly his mouth with just a soft "milking" of your hands to ask him to "do something". He will either move higher, move left/right or lower his head. YOu do not give him relief until the choice he makes is "lower my head". Then, you instantly give rein and a good boy.

Work on this and pretty soon you can remind him that being up is not going to earn a release, but being down will. 

If you lower your hands and try to pull him down, you will have a hard time feeling those tiny little places where he thinks about maybe lowering his head and there's a flash of looseness. You have to catch that flash of loosening and respond with a big releasse , 'yes, that's what I wanted". Hands lowered will make you blind/deaf to those places. if you miss his tiny "tries" too many times, he will stop trying and will become set in the mental space of blanket resistance without thinking about trying again.

Do all of this at the walk. don't eve try trot until you have some success at walk. ok?


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## LoveMyAppyx0o (Mar 9, 2012)

thank you so much  the way you say things makes me feel alot better about this. i will post pictures on this thread tomorrow with that saddle, i do not ride in it much, i normally use a western saddle, ill take pictures with that too (the sweat pattern from both saddles is perfectly even, thats all i know how to look for)

other then that i will switch up the bit for a few rides and once i find one that works well for him and I, i will then start with what you said to do about holding and releasing as a reward. 

I usually wouldnt use a bit, i just had too use one becuase i didnt have an english hackamore. and if i knew how to do all of this without a bit, i definitely would much rather that. because he is already 30% of the way there when ridden in a hackamore....but whatever works. ill try anything. thank you  pix to come...

heres a picture of the hackamore i use, just incase its important.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Love it is so possible!!!
Here is some encouragement

Before:
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...479004974657_659044656_10734715_3120141_n.jpg

After:
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...32288280_1331146027_33034208_1530705686_n.jpg

And it's better now now (no pics.) It can happen. Just give it some time. Work on what tinyliny advised


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

The reason he doesn't do well in the bit is because he probably isn't just real broke and the hack has more bite to it, so he backs off it.

Your horse is hollow. He's not carrying himself wrll and until he develops some self carriage, he is going to continue to be hollow. Don't worry about hia head. Get him correct through his body and in his legs and it will come down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## likklemouse (May 16, 2012)

So how can I build up my horses neck (the crest not the under muscle) from the ground? And can someone tell me what a roll back is? Im currently working him in a round pen with elasticated side reins. Thanks in advance.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

likklemouse said:


> So how can I build up my horses neck (the crest not the under muscle) from the ground? And can someone tell me what a roll back is? Im currently working him in a round pen with elasticated side reins. Thanks in advance.


How old is he?

Neck muscles come with correct riding, same with back muscles.

On the ground, same principles apply as stated in this thread as far as I know.


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## likklemouse (May 16, 2012)

He is a four year old miniature show horse and until this year his neck was great, so need ground work advise.....and when it says backing up, how much and how often. Plus I still dont know what a back roll is??:lol:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

likklemouse said:


> He is a four year old miniature show horse and until this year his neck was great, so need ground work advise.....and when it says backing up, how much and how often. Plus I still dont know what a back roll is??:lol:


I would go with ground driving for your handsome prince there! It's the same as riding except on the ground of course. But that way you can work on pushing him forward and really getting him to use his hind end, topline, and then of course his neck too. 

A rollback.. that's a western thing. It was explained to me but I'm blanking on the exact wording so sorry if I mess this up guys. Something about traveling in one direction and doing kind of a tight u turn to go in the opposite direction?

~~~

For backing up, you do a little every so often. Backing up a hill is great work, same with walking up it,, encouraging the horse to stretch his neck down. 

How is he doing in side reins? Is he understanding what they're for?

Do a refresher on flexing at the poll so he can do it with ease. Carrot stretching before you work will help to loosen him up. I have a thread about it here: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stretches-muscle-building-your-horse-108730/

The ones for riding, you can come up with creative ways to do that on the ground  Be sure to ask if you need help!

The important thing is not to force the headset.. it'll come naturally when the horse starts carrying itself correctly, regardless of size :wink:


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## likklemouse (May 16, 2012)

Thanks so much for your help Angel....I will start ground driving him 2m (thats a funny phrase when you think about it isnt it? Sure where else you gonna drive but on the ground! lol) I will also try the backing up a hill...lots of them around here.  He is good with the loose elastic side reins but after a while gets annoyed with them so I took them off...and he continued carrying his head better so gonna try doing it for the 1st 5mins then taking them off.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You're welcome


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