# red dun?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No way to predict if it would be a liver red dun or not. No way to predict what shade of red a breeding will produce.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

What would it look like, if it happened? Have you ever seen one?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

More pics of him here - McBride Quarter Horses


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

they would produce a 'chocolate red dun' every time? or could they have a light color red dun?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

There is no guarantee on color shades with any breeding.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I thought since the liver had darker shades on its legs mane and tail-- it would react differently to the agouti than a light colored chestnut. Thanks for clearning that up.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

toto said:


> it would react differently to the agouti than a light colored chestnut.


Agouti doesn't express on a red-based coat. He's advertised as A/A because they will have tested him to see if it's physically possible for him to throw black or grulla. It isn't - to a homozygous black [E/E] mare with no modifiers [ie, plain black] he can only throw bay and bay [yellow, 'zebra', classic] dun. Depending on his dun zygosity.

Agouti on a black base gives you bay [or brown or wild bay depending on which type of Agouti you're actually talking about]. In that effect it's sort of the world's most common dilution gene! It restricts black to certain parts of the horse's body, therefore diluting the rest of the coat to a brown or reddish colour.

We aren't sure what determines the shade of red a red horse comes out as, certainly sooty can have a genetic factor and is implicated in turning a 'normal' chestnut liver, but the inheritance of the gene is thus far unknown, and having a gene and expressing it can be two completely different things.

My filly for example almost certainly has sooty. Her tail is almost black [photo does NOT do it justice] and her mane has black strands in it, but that's the limits to HER expression. She also probably has flaxen, given that she has a lot of gold and white in her mane as well as normal 'red' strands, shades of dark brown, and the black strands.









She's not dun, but she has a weak countershading dorsal stripe, which doesn't show up much in person but seems quite strong in photos taken from behind. Unfortunately I can't find the photo I have uploaded that shows it.

She's a Thoroughbred, and the dun gene does not [to my knowledge] exist in the breed. It's certainly not in her bloodlines on either side.

A chestnut horse without flaxen or sooty will have a mane and tail that match its body, or at least that's my understanding of the genetics.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

And the below horse indicates how extreme sooty can be. He is chestnut.









Same gene [or so we believe], completely different result.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Here are two red duns I know, one is rather dark and the other is a rather orangey color (light enough to the point of being mistaken for my buckskin from a distance).


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Wait wait wait-- a red dun doesnt have agouti? So a horse with 'dun factor' doesnt have agouti? 

What causes the 'black points' on a dun?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I loveeeee the second red dun-- such a butterball. Very neat shade too. Pink!!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Agouti restricts black and only black. It causes a black horse to become bay, brown, or wild bay. Any horse that is further modified from bay, brown, or wild bay will have whatever form of agouti that caused the original modification of black (ie, buckskin or perlino are still A_)

A red horse is homozygous red (ee) and has no black to be restricted. So a chestnut/red dun/palomino/cremello/what have you CAN carry agouti, but you'd never know just looking; it would require a genetic test.

A "normal" dun is actually dun on bay, so yes a bay dun would have agouti because bay is black + A. A red dun COULD have agouti, but it is red-based and therefore no black to restrict. Dun is a separate gene altogether that dilutes color, lightens the body and not the legs, mane, or tail, hence why red duns and grullos have a similar darker leg effect that agouti would cause separately.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Toto are you thinking of a bay dun like this -


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Agouti restricts black and only black. It causes a black horse to become bay, brown, or wild bay. Any horse that is further modified from bay, brown, or wild bay will have whatever form of agouti that caused the original modification of black (ie, buckskin or perlino are still A_)
> 
> A red horse is homozygous red (ee) and has no black to be restricted. So a chestnut/red dun/palomino/cremello/what have you CAN carry agouti, but you'd never know just looking; it would require a genetic test.
> 
> A "normal" dun is actually dun on bay, so yes a bay dun would have agouti because bay is black + A. A red dun COULD have agouti, but it is red-based and therefore no black to restrict. Dun is a separate gene altogether that dilutes color, lightens the body and not the legs, mane, or tail, hence why red duns and grullos have a similar darker leg effect that agouti would cause separately.



Awesome explanation! I get this now-- i think.. 

A red dun would look like this?.. eeAADD eeAaDd eeaaDD eeaaDd eeAaDD eeAADd? 
And a 'bay dun' would be EeAaDd..etc?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Toto are you thinking of a bay dun like this -



No, i didnt mean 'bay dun' like this.. I was thinking 'regular dun factor', lol.


Wait.. isnt there a 'bay dun' and a regular dun factor?

Dun confuses me. :-( ..Quick throw me a life-saver-- im drowndin in the dun factor gene pool!!  lol.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Dun is its own gene that causes color dilution, a dorsal stripe, leg barring, shoulder barring, and cobwebbing. Those are the "dun factors." It can affect any color it feels like. The color commonly referred to as just "dun" is actually bay dun. Black + A agouti + dun.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I got ya now. EEaaDD = Grullo/a or 'black dun' EeAaDd = Bay or 'classic dun' eeAaDd = red dun
EeAtatDd = brown dun?

I been doing reasearch on the dun gene, but i dont understand what it actually did. Ive read it is a dilution, but it makes the horse a 'yellow-ish' rather than buckskin-- witch makes a brownish.

I have a question about a black mare now-- she had white leg barring on all 4 legs, 3 socks, and a star and snip.. but was solid black-- what could have caused her leg barring? Could she have been an extra sooty variation of EEaaDD?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Without a picture of the markings we really can't give good guestimate


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would have to see a picture. 

And as far as bay dun and buckskin: A bay dun is a "flatter" color than buckskin. They might be shiny, like the one above, but the color is still a duller shade. A buckskin is gold and will have a gold-tinted shine to them.

Buckskins also may have dorsal stripes caused by countershading, but will not have leg barring unless they are also dun, making them a dunskin.

Do some reading from this website. It will help. www.morgancolors.com


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Without a picture of the markings we really can't give good guestimate



I wish i could find a good one of her legs-- ill have to go through all the horsey pics when i visit grandma.  Definitely will post the pics.

If it helps any, she was up there in her 20's and it seemed like when she got around 17-18 the white come out, but before it wasnt there.. could old age cause this?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> I would have to see a picture.
> 
> And as far as bay dun and buckskin: A bay dun is a "flatter" color than buckskin. They might be shiny, like the one above, but the color is still a duller shade. A buckskin is gold and will have a gold-tinted shine to them.
> 
> ...




Bucks wont have the darker face, right? 

Ive seen a 'buckskin' (no dorsal stripe) with leg barring-- what causes that? Just the color in general? Can duns not have the dorsal, or is that a must?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Most buckskins are a uniform color, yes. 

And duns must have a dorsal stripe, it is one of te traits of the gene.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

http://www.freewebs.com/fansofmystable/Spotted Horses/red-dun-appaloosa.jpg 


If ya google red dun this horse pops up.. Isnt this one a chestnut?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Actually, that mare is a grulla. She's referenced here often when members ask about their Appy's color, which can be difficult because Appy genes can skew base colors. I'm on my phone an I don't have the picture of her as a foal to show that she is a grulla.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Really?! Holy cow!! Appys are strange creatures!!


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