# Is It Okay to Hit a Horse?



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

Yesterday I was out at the barn getting ready to ride. I went to pick up my horses' hoof to make sure he didn't have anything that needed to be picked out. He refused to pick up his hoof! He is 13 years old, and he knows very well how to pick up his feet. I've done it hundreds of times with him. So I hit him, and he still refused to pick up his foot, so I hit him again. That time, he picked up his foot. Was it okay to hit him in this situation? Or should I try something else?


----------



## xdrybonesxvalleyx (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm not a trainer, but I don't think you should hit him. You could give him a slight pat or touch to indicate that you would like for him to put his foot up, but you don't want a horse associating fear with humans.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I usually jab Ice in the butt/shoulder with my finger if he gets reluctant to pick up his feet.

However, I've smacked horses on their butts, chests, even popped our resident mustang baby in the mouth when she nipped me. It was a play/baby bite, but I felt teeth and therefore unacceptable. She didn't shy away from my hand after I did it, so she knew the difference.

My opinion is that its about timing more than the method.


----------



## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

It really depends on WHY he didn't pick up his feet, was he just being stubborn? Or was there a problem? But trust me, you won't hurt your horse by punching him when he needs it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

Yeah, I didn't think I should have hit him either... But in my defense it wasn't hard, just kind of firm. I felt really bad afterwards and as soon as I picked his feet I gave him a treat to let him know that he had done what I had asked... Was that okay?

But I do think that he should have picked up his feet, he knows how to do it, and there was nothing wrong with his feet/legs (I always check his legs before I do anything with him)


----------



## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

your horse will not be scared of you if you hit him when he deserves it, like justsambam said, if you have to right timing and don't up and hit him randomly, they won't fear it, but they will have respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

I haven't hit a horse to pick up their feet but I certainly will give them a smack on their shoulder/rump if they attempt or threaten to bite, kick or shove me. That I will NOT tolerate!

For picking up the feet I first give a tug on their fetlock and ask them to pick it up. If they don't I lean against their shoulder whilst holding the fetlock till I throw them off balance enough to lift their foot. If they are really stubborn I'll put a rope around their foot and lift that way while I lean against them.


----------



## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Honestly... you're NOT going to hurt your horse by hitting him with your hand, you're more likely to hurt YOURSELF before you hit hard enough to hurt your horse. If a horse is being downright rude or dangerous, go ahead, but make sure you mean it. In this situation what you did is fine, but in future, if he does something honestly 'bad' and you give him a light 'pat' to let him know he's doing something wrong, you're not going to get the point across, and he's probably not going to care. Horses are very physical animals, you can't reason with them like you do people, you need to communicate in a way they understand- and giving your horse a smack isn't associating fear with humans _unless and until_ it turns to the point of abuse.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> Yesterday I was out at the barn getting ready to ride. I went to pick up my horses' hoof to make sure he didn't have anything that needed to be picked out. He refused to pick up his hoof! He is 13 years old, and he knows very well how to pick up his feet. I've done it hundreds of times with him. So I hit him, and he still refused to pick up his foot, so I hit him again. That time, he picked up his foot. Was it okay to hit him in this situation? Or should I try something else?



Yesterday I came downstairs for breakfast with my wife.
I asked her to bring me another cup of coffee because I was in the mood for another cup.
She refused to bring it to me!
She knows how to make coffee and would not do it and she has done it hundreds of times before!
So I hit her and she still would not bring me another cup so I hit her again and she brought me one.



( Do you really want to solve the problems with your horse handling like this)?


----------



## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Perhaps in this situation it wasn't the best example of a reason to get physical, but comparing this to that situation doesn't make much sense to me, because it really isn't the same.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

It heavily depends on the situation, IMHO. There's no set rule book, but if a horse is knowingly doing something wrong, be it general rudeness and stubbornness or actually acting maliciously, I don't think there is anything wrong with giving them a firm slap on the shoulder or rump. It's not okay if the horse doesn't know how to do what you are asking, or is scared or confused.

And if you are going to do it, do it firm and hard enough not to be beating on the horse, but to get the point across that you mean business, otherwise, the horse may pick up on timidness and take advantage.

And it is never okay to hit a horse in the face of course, save a light bop on the nose, which I had had to do before to get the attention of my pony who was about to knock me over with some violent head rubbing...pushing away was not getting a response, and the tap on the nose surprised him and got his attention.


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

alexischristina said:


> Perhaps in this situation it wasn't the best example of a reason to get physical, but comparing this to that situation doesn't make much sense to me, because it really isn't the same.


 Why isn't it the same? I thought Marecare highlighted the scenario in quite an interesting way. My mare can be stubborn about her back feet, she has been like it since the day I got her. I find that tapping her on the leg gently and rhythmically with the hoof pick works as a nice reminder for her. Ironically tapping my husband gently and rhythmically on the head is a great way to get his attention LOL.:lol:


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Why isn't it the same? I thought Marecare highlighted the scenario in quite an interesting way. My mare can be stubborn about her back feet, she has been like it since the day I got her. I find that tapping her on the leg gently and rhythmically with the hoof pick works as a nice reminder for her. Ironically tapping my husband gently and rhythmically on the head is a great way to get his attention LOL.:lol:


LOL very interesting indeed. I think in the OP's particular situation, hitting maybe was not appropriate, but to answer her question, I would not rule it out as completely inappropriate.


----------



## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't have a problem with whacking a horse if it is doing something dangerous.


----------



## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

kiwigirl, that made me laugh. 
Situation wise it's similar, but as a general statement I wouldn't compare wife beating to a good smack.

On the other hand, if somebody big threatened me, I'd probably throw the first punch... then run, not sure that'd help with horses though.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I don't think the wife and coffee situation is really a good metaphor, honestly. Because while I am a huge advocate for treating horses with kindness and respect, as creatures with thoughts and feelings...they are not human. It's just not the same thing, why? Because horses behave differently than a fellow human would, and understand things different socially. The thought process is not like that of a human. We are friends of horses but we are also masters. A spouse is never the master of the other, and should never have to be. Horses are several times the size and weight of a human. If respect and who is the dominate one is not established, then the horse will gladly assume he or she gets to run the show, and we all know how dangerous that can be!

In herd situations, there is an alpha member, and there are the lower members. If a lower member is getting out of line, the alpha will physically put said lower horse in it's place. Sometimes with a kick, a nip, or a body check. Some will give warnings beforehand.

This is natural for horses and they understand it. So a horse should not have any trouble understanding why he is being struck IF it is done within a timeframe of only a couple of seconds. Otherwise, horse won't know what the physical punishment is for, and THAT is what causes them to be fearful, because they start to think "I don't know when or why I'll be hit next time!" If it follows a particular behavior without fail, they will put together "Oh, when I do this, they are going to get after me about it..."

A verbal warning with clear body language should warn the horse at least once first before hitting, as far as I'm concerned though. It's merely using "language" similar to that which the horses express in their own social groups and herds.

ETA: Just to note, I don't think it was appropriate to flat out hit the horse in the OP's situation. I would have not hit, but given a firm tap to the leg with a verbal warning, and leaned my weight against the leg. It's rude, certainly, but isn't obnoxious enough to render serious punishment.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I would have yes if your horse knows what you want and flat out refuses then that deserves punishment. Its showqing basic respect.
Like if i ask my horse to walk and he wont he gets punished. If there is no health issues behind the misbehaviour you should correct it. Horses keep testing so say he gets away with this what will he try next???

In all honesty your hand is not going to hurt your horse at all thet regularly get kicked and bitten by horses wearing metal shoes. Compared to the palm of your hand?? 

Your not abusing your horse as others are implying your demanding some basic respect. You wont end up with a quivering mess if you correct the misbeahiour


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Well well, looks like I am automatically logged in to this post under my wife's user name(I am not a member of this forum, just being nosey). So, being that my wife is not here right now, let me tell you all a little story. When I first started dating Steph about 200 years ago, she had this old Knabstrup. This horse had it in his head that that the two of them were married, mates for life, then along I come and you should have seen the jelousy issues. 

This horse was a clever old *****. He would play all nice and sweet with Steph but as soon as she was not looking, he would lunge out and bite me. I tried to be sensitive to his needs, I was stealing his girl and he must have been hurting as our dating was cutting into his evening rides and he was not happy about. So every time he tried to bite, I just stepped back or dodged and played it cool. 

Then, one day, after about 6 years of this, I was walking along the beach and Steph was walking with the horse, Steph looks one way and seizing the moment, the cunning old bstard took a bite and caught me a beauty. I don't know whether it was reflexes or simply the end of my patience but I came back with a right hook, put every ounce of my energy into a fist and cracked him on the nose. The old boy pulled his head back like they do when the reins are flicked. At this point, he paused and thought about what had just happened. Then he looked at me as if to say "whatever" and continued on with his walk like nothing had happened. I can say with all honesty that that horse never bit me again but he never softened to me either. From that day he pretty much just ignored me- the barbarian human who had shown his carnivorous ways and attacked an innocent herbivore. 

Would I do it again. Probably not. I only ever get involved with horses when I absolutely have to- stock work, that kind of thing. When I ride, watching me in the saddle is like watching an epilectic at a disco. If the horse plays up I know I am going to lose from up high so I get off and say- "you want to play lets play" and the horse gets run around on the end of the lead, forced to carry on with what it started until it decides that its not fun anymore. Praise and preening come later once the job is done. 

Oh crap, here comes Steph.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Frankly I don't think it's appropriate in this situation as it doesn't teach him anything. I don't think he understood in first place he did something wrong. Rather take him off balance or move him a step and ask again.

I do smack my horse if she decides to pull away her hoof while I'm cleaning it. She knows she should not and does it on purpose (I mean it's not a balance issue) - to see if she can get away with it. It's a personality thing as she tests me here and there with little things like that. I smack her butt or shoulder (depending if it's front or hind) and growl, and she stands perfectly fine after that.


----------



## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

My mare is usually great about picking up her feet. She'll prop them up for me and rarely tries to take them back until I'm done with them. There are times though, that her response is a bit delayed. I don't believe it's due to disrespect - sometimes she needs a gentle nudge of the butt to refocus, or a bit of time to adjust her legs so she's balanced enough to give me a leg. Sometimes she's just tired and needs a bit more of a reminder. I just escalate the pressure, so I ask, release, ask with more pressure, release, until she acknowledges me and does as she's asked. More than once I've gotten a response that seems as if she's saying, "Oh shoot!, I forgot, I was daydreaming here you go, mom" We all have days where our heads are in the clouds, and our horses do to. 

Actions done with disrespect on behalf of the horse do warrant a sharp, quick act of discipline, IMO. However, it's very hard for people to give discipline without all the complex emotions humans tie into it. We feel anger, even resentment at times, and once we've done the "disciplining" even guilt, all emotions horses don't have nor understand. If you can give a sharp reprimand to a horse and be devoid of anger or guilt, and you can deliver the reprimand in the timing necessary for the horse to process that the correction is linked to one of his actions, and lastly, if you can get over the ordeal quickly and move on, then maybe I see it as acceptable. I know more often then not, I can't, so I find another way. (though most often it takes longer)

For instance, my mare tries to walk away sometimes while I'm cinching the girth. After backing her up, tirelessly for about 10 minutes, repeating "Stand" she finally did. More often than not, she'll stand, but she happens to like if I sing to her while I'm doing it, which I'm fine with, I'm sure it's a rather uncomfortable thing to get used to, (I'm not sure I'd like it if people uber-tightened the belt on my jeans to be absolutely sure my 20lb pants wouldn't fall down.) But I see people hit their horses all the time for girth issues, but it's not addressing the actual issue, IMO.


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

I forgot to add this part in the first post... Usually he loves to be pampered and groomed, and when I went to pick his feet, he pinned his ears and attempted to bite my butt. He only does these sort of mischievious things when he doesn't want to do something.


----------



## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

if my horse tryed to bite me she would get a smack, that is unnacceptable. But after I did that I would search around to find what was wrong. If something hurts it doesn't give them a free ticket to bite me, they can tell me something is wrong in a different way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

Marecare said:


> Yesterday I came downstairs for breakfast with my wife.
> I asked her to bring me another cup of coffee because I was in the mood for another cup.
> She refused to bring it to me!
> She knows how to make coffee and would not do it and she has done it hundreds of times before!
> ...


 
Agreed . I've never hit a horse .There are better ways of going about it


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> I forgot to add this part in the first post... Usually he loves to be pampered and groomed, and when I went to pick his feet, he pinned his ears and attempted to bite my butt. He only does these sort of mischievious things when he doesn't want to do something.


When horse misbehaves strangely "out of blue" (especially in something it likes), it usually means something going on - like a pain somewhere.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> Yesterday I came downstairs for breakfast with my wife.
> I asked her to bring me another cup of coffee because I was in the mood for another cup.
> She refused to bring it to me!
> She knows how to make coffee and would not do it and she has done it hundreds of times before!
> ...


I think you were too gentle, Marecare. I'd take a whip and smack your wife's butt for misbehaving! :lol:


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

Hahah !!!


----------



## Cobalt (Jun 6, 2010)

The only time I have ever given my horses a good whack was when they have bullied me in some way, i.e. nipping. It's hard, because sometimes you get sooooo angry at a horse and lose your cool a little, but that is the worst time to hit a horse. You should look at discipline as a reinforcement of your training, and as such, it should be done with a purposeful demeanor, and only when clearly warranted. 

If your horse was just being lazy in picking up his hooves, I can totally understand your frustration, but I don't think hitting him accomplished much. One thing I do is push them off balance or ask them to move forward or backward a bit to get the feet moving.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

draftrider said:


> I don't have a problem with whacking a horse if it is doing something dangerous.


YES! Being stubborn is no reason to hit. If they don't pick up a hoof, (and fully well know how) move the horse. Push them over with your shoulder, back them up, step them ahead. I may also poke or pinch their fetlock or tap the lower leg. I will annoy the horse into picking up but not brute them into it.


----------



## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Cobalt said:


> If your horse was just being lazy in picking up his hooves, I can totally understand your frustration, but I don't think hitting him accomplished much. One thing I do is push them off balance or ask them to move forward or backward a bit to get the feet moving.


This is what I do, too.

Smacking a horse as discipline (nipping/kicking) is different than punishment for not doing what you want (which is usually from our frustration).


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Many years ago I approached horses with an iron hand and things just settled into a kind of "*mutually assured destruction*"relationship.
They looked for a really good opening to "Get me back" and I was always on guard for the pay back.

I started looking for ways to solve problems without the conflict and stress.
This crossed over into the rest of my life also and a lot of things that had not worked before started to fall into place.

In my opinion horses present a great opportunity to better ourselves and our relationships with* ALL* things.
Our base ideas are tested and our values are at many times pushed to their limits.
We show the horse who we really are!

Now to go back to my original metaphor, if I were to come downstairs and help my wife make the coffee for both of us and maybe even did a little something nice for her my day and hers would get a better start.

This is not unlike how I approach the horses that I work with.

A mare know when she is being cared for and reacts to that care (marecare) and we all know that you *negotiate *with a mare.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i don't think smacking them is bad at all. if you tried 3 times picking up (and i would try at least 3 times whilst leaning against the shoulder) and my horses didn't pick up her hoof i would most certainly give her a firm smack on the shoulder to know that she NEEDS to listen to me. just like my little colt sometimes he thinks it's cute to nibble on me and he gets a good pop in the nose for it. he also thinks rearing at me is fun and he gets a good smack in the shoulder plus being pulled down out of the rear. my horses respect me but they do not fear me because i don't beat them for no reason. and i don't hit them for no reason. my timing is good so they know what they are getting smacked for. and your not going to cause any mental or physical damage smacking them. besides doesn't the lead mare give a good kick to a horse when it doesn't listen the first time? even the momma horse bites the baby when he tries suckling to hard. it's not a bad thing and as long as you arn't beating them it is ok in my opinion


----------



## barrelracer892 (Apr 3, 2010)

My horse will do the same thing sometimes. He's 10 and sometimes he will just want to put his foot down randomly when you have it up. He's done this since before I even owned him 5 years ago. I always just push on his shoulder with mine while trying to pick his foot up and he usually picks it right up again. If not, I just walk him forward a few steps to get his feet up under him and try to pick up his hoof again.


----------



## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

As some of the previous posters have said, you certainly won't hurt your horse. I have slapped or "popped" my horse on occasion when it was necessary to either get his attention or to discipline. I absolutely do not tolerate a horse that attempts to bite and I have kicked my horse in the chest when he bit me. It was the last time he has ever attempted to do that. I cannot even begin to kick him hard enough in the chest to hurt him - but it certainly got his attention and he learned that is not acceptable behavior. Any horse in the pasture would have kicked or bit him a heck of a lot harder for what he did. I don't think it's necessary to "hit" a horse (outside of a biting or kicking incident) and the face is always off limits, but giving your horse a jab, poke or a slap to get his attention or correct poor behavior is IMO necessary at certain times. And be certain times, I mean:
After you have asked politely, asked again (with a little more energy), then tell
Potential safety (yours or the horse's)


----------



## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Don't do coffee, but both my hubby and I are trained to deliver Mountain Dew or Diet Pepsi to each other on occasion.

On a serious note, I don't think you hurt your horse or his feelings, and a correction is necessary when they won't do as asked, you just have to decide on what hardness the correction is. Some a light tap will do, some a more harsh smack. 
But, you still need to make a horse, or dog, etc realize you are the leader and they do have to do as you ask.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

'Discipline' is different than 'beating' or 'hitting'.


----------



## munschk (Mar 11, 2008)

Though I definitely agree with some of the above posters that if a horse tries to bite or kick then a single smack with a loud 'No' is usually an effective response. I wouldn't refer to it as punishment in that scenario, but more like a firm correction.

However, for the situation you referred to, I would have more gone along the way of making the horse move, forward/back/left/right and then asked again. In my opinion, it is just a more effective way of treating that problem as I rather have the horse 'do something wrong' to get a smack and rather use movement when they 'refuse to do something'.


----------



## barrelracer892 (Apr 3, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> 'Discipline' is different than 'beating' or 'hitting'.


 
Agreed! It's like hitting the palm of a kid's hand with a ruler when they need to be disciplined. It's not going to emotionally traumatize them.


----------



## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

I think how you discipline is also dependent on the horse. Each responds differently. My horse is easily bored so making him move his feet would actually be a reward......it's giving him something to do.

And I absolutely agree with SpeedRacer - disciplining is definitely different than beating or abusing your horse. I have NO tolerance for that !


----------



## barrelracer892 (Apr 3, 2010)

I have to treat my pony differently from my other horses. I'm not sure of his past, but, for example, once when he tried to bite me i popped him on the jaw and he flipped out. When I punish him I just have to work him. lunge him in circles, trot, make him run, etc. He's very lazy! He behaves himself once he's had a good workout though.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> 'Discipline' is different than 'beating' or 'hitting'.


Agreed...because 'discipline' would be a physical reprimand when they have an experience where they displayed unacceptable behavior that they can die to the reprimand. In my book, beating or hitting the horse is either a) just because the person is sick and abusive, or b) because they are frustrated that the horse does not understand something, is not doing something up to par, ect.

Honestly, I've seen people on both extremes. Some refused to hit and relied solely on other methods of discipline, and I have seen some who would whack their horse for anything. I'm kind of in the middle myself. My first trainer was the latter, although she never flat out beat and horse for something little or silly, but she encouraged me from a child to give a horse a swift whack if they are acting stupid and disrespectful.

Depending on the situation, I may or may not hit the horse. Sometimes I will either a) back the horse several steps very forcefully, b) give his halter a little jerk - this is mainly for little stuff to give him a warning, or c) give him a good pop if he's just getting way out of line.


----------



## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

barrelracer892 said:


> I have to treat my pony differently from my other horses. I'm not sure of his past, but, for example, once when he tried to bite me i popped him on the jaw and he flipped out. When I punish him I just have to work him. lunge him in circles, trot, make him run, etc. He's very lazy! He behaves himself once he's had a good workout though.


I had a mare that was the same way. All I ever had to do for discipline was either make her work or lift my finger and give her a dirty look. She was WAY too sensitive to ever think about popping her on the shoulder or butt. Even poking her firmly made her about jump out of her skin.


----------



## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I don't have a problem with popping a horse that is being aggressive, dangerous, refusing to get out of my space. Then you are answering aggression with the same reaction. My only problem with it, is that I seriously doubt the horse related the spank to the feet at all. In his mind you were just smacking him for standing still. It's hard to NOT get frustrated when your horse is ignoring you, especially when they know what you want, but that was probably not an effective way of getting what you wanted. Having said that, I seriously doubt it bothered your horse in the least. Mine have all gotten a smack on occasion.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Is it OK to hit a horse?*

Simple answer : no it isn't especially for not lifting its foot up.

But we weren't there, so ask yourself:
Why did you hit the horse?
Were you angry?
Because the horse had not picked up its foot
Because it would not pick up its foot
Because it did not want to pick up its foot
Because there was something wrong with its foot.
Because you were in a hurry.

First thing you want to ask yourself is whether you asked it to pick up its foot in the correct manner. If you start hitting it because it did not pick up its foot when you asked it nicely then you want to ask yourself what you are going to do when the horse bites you
- or kicks you 
or strikes at you. 
Are you going to thrash it or shoot it? 

It is not for us to tell you the answer, it is for you to work the answer out for yourself but if you become too heavy in the hitting you aren't going to get far with the horse. So don't ever hit it without a very, very, very, good reason and then only if it is being aggressive towards you and that would be a No-No on the part of the horse.

Persistent,positive , patience with a firm voice is what you need - not a crop.


----------



## Tina (Feb 2, 2010)

Marecare, when is the last time a 1100lb wife bit or kicked you? I agree that a hit probably wasnt warranted for not picking up the feet but your comparison would be a little on the extreme side. I personally lean into my horse's shoulder if she will not lift her foot. Then if that does not work I put pressure on the leg just above the fetlock. Angel I don't think that you were trying to be malicious and I dont believe that you are an abusive owner. But if what you are doing makes you feel bad, come up with a different strategy for the next time. There is great advice and knowledge out there. And good on ya for asking : ) Good luck!


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

When my little one doesn't want to pick up her feet [and it is a stubborn issue, she has that "make me" attitude] I lean into her, and I will gradually put more and more weight into her until she has to move her feet and then I snatch it up. I also "set" my horse's feet down. I do not drop it and let them slam it on the ground. It is my foot. I bought it. I pay for it. I can do whatever I want with it. And I chose to guide it to the ground and set it down gently. It just furthers the training that if it's in my hand, it's my foot, not theirs.

Sometimes, when she's feeling particularly "in charge," she just pushes back. This then turns into a "YEILD TO ME" war and if my whip is handy, I use that to get her moving her hindquarters, her shoulders, backing up, side-stepping, etc. I use a whip only because she respects it, and on these days, she couldn't give a whoot about my big, scary hand.

Recently, I started teaching Gracie [my little one] to pick up her feet when I tap them. Using a dressage whip, I tap her fetlock, and increase the pressure until she picks up her feet. It's working very well, and most days, I can take two fingers and tap her fetlock and she picks her foot up for me.

I am trying to think of the times I do hit my horses. Usually, it's limited to things like when I tap their haunches to get them to step over and they don't respond. Then they get a swift smack just to get their attention. Then they get that "oh yeah" moment and step over. 

Over then that, they only get smacked if they get too mouthy or rubby. Even then, it's still a reminder that they need to back off.

Hmm, guess I got a little side-tracked. To answer the question, it IS okay to hit your horse when the time is right and they deserve it [and they weren't previously abused] but in this situation, it was not the right course of action.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I have a severe problem with the term "hitting" when it comes to horses. In the sense of the word, we all associate "hitting" with the said action being carried out on a human. With a horse, unless you are punching him in the head, you really can't "hit" them. I have seen excited show jumpers "pat" their horses furiously after a good round about 10x harder then I've hit my horse in "discipline" before.

Unless the OP stopped what she was doing to stand up and slug her horse in the face, I really believe everyone is taking "hitting" out of context. I am going to post this video because I found it hilarious - and I also think it's a wonderful example of how using the term "hitting" can be taken out of context. I didn't even realize the video camera was on (I was filming Shay-la), and I asked Jynx to move her haunches. She ignored me, so I gradually escalated my "hitting" until I got her attention. The sound is more dramatic then anything, and a blatantly obvious point at how we REALLY can't hurt a horse with an open palm slap - they get worse from the horse flies! When Jynx did finally move, it was with a very bored look. To be perfectly honest, I could have just stopped and used a different method, but we were both laughing at how hard I'd have to slap just to get her to wake up - I'm fairly positive she thought it was a massage! :lol:

[URL=http://s602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/Mikolaj2009/Jynx/?action=view&current=JynxSpanking.flv][/URL]


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I have a severe problem with the term "hitting" when it comes to horses. In the sense of the word, we all associate "hitting" with the said action being carried out on a human. With a horse, unless you are punching him in the head, you really can't "hit" them. I have seen excited show jumpers "pat" their horses furiously after a good round about 10x harder then I've hit my horse in "discipline" before.


That's a very good point I agree with.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> 'Discipline' is different than 'beating' or 'hitting'.


absolutely. 

Treat horses like horses, and wives like wives, and please don't confuse the two! :lol:


----------



## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

There are situations that yes, I give a quick 'pop' if needed. For instance, my two year old was having her feet trimmed the other day. She kept rotating her hind foot in a circle for the farrier (in a threatening manner...it is very wimpy on her end...she just recently started doing this ever so often). I gave her a quick pop on her hindend with the end of my leadrope, and made her move her feet. Once done she stopped, and stood there quietly. The farrier resumed trimming her hooves, and what do you know...she stood like an Angel. Her 'game' was over. When she held her hind feet politely and quietly, I praised the heck out of her. Lots of rubs from both myself and the farrier. That is part of the training. I won't tolerate bad behavior, but when they are good....they get a lot of praise for it.

Horses are 1000 pound animals. They are more capable of hurting me than I am of them. In a herd, if one misbehaves another horse may very well kick them. I can assure you my quick 'pop' with the leadrope was nothing near what a horse does when they double barrel another.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I have a great instance where it is appropriate (at least, IMO).

I had my horse tied up, about to hose him down after a work out. He was being very rude, crowding me, and ended up smacking me in the head twice because he was just on top of me, not paying attention nor showing me any respsect. I gave him a sharp pop on the nose and he jumped a little and then stood still for hosing. He was not scared nor hurt. It got his attention, and that was my goal.


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

^Thats kind of what I figured I was doing... I didn't hit him too hard, just kind of a smack. It got his attention and I think it showed him what he was doing wrong... He also tried to bite me the first time I went to pick up his foot.


----------



## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

Hitting you horse will hurt you more than him. I wouldve hit mine. seriously hitting your horse is actually a MUST! In the wild horses detrmine their dominance by hitting/kicking /bitting etc, and if you never hit/punish in the appropiate time, he will walk all over you.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

^SO true. That has always been my feelings. Horses understand being physically reprimanded very well, simply because it's natural - the dominate horse will kick or bite if the lower horse is disrespecting it.

Edit to add: LOL, This is not to say we should kick and bite our horses of course! But I had to add that in because it looked funny.

Key thing about it is, the dominate horse doesn't wait around and think about it, they just react immediately. So hitting does more harm than good if you are timid about it and hesitate. It's not to cause pain, it's to surprise them and say "HEY! Pay attention!" It's no different than if my horse is being lazy or fighting with me while I am riding, and I just put the whip back and tap him. I don't use my whip to hurt him or scare him, I use it as either an extension of my leg in some cases, or to use it as an extension of my arm to surprise him and get his attention back on me.


----------



## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

DressageIsToDance said:


> ^SO true. That has always been my feelings. Horses understand being physically reprimanded very well, simply because it's natural - the dominate horse will kick or bite if the lower horse is disrespecting it.
> 
> Edit to add: LOL, This is not to say we should kick and bite our horses of course! But I had to add that in because it looked funny.
> 
> Key thing about it is, the dominate horse doesn't wait around and think about it, they just react immediately. So hitting does more harm than good if you are timid about it and hesitate. It's not to cause pain, it's to surprise them and say "HEY! Pay attention!" It's no different than if my horse is being lazy or fighting with me while I am riding, and I just put the whip back and tap him. I don't use my whip to hurt him or scare him, I use it as either an extension of my leg in some cases, or to use it as an extension of my arm to surprise him and get his attention back on me.


haha i just had a picture in my head of a person bitting their horse! lol


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

^ Random side story: One time, I was working at the barn, mucking stalls, and this horse accidentally stepped on my foot, and he was a 17ish hand horse, so he was HEAVY. I pushed him, slapped him, poked him, did everything I could to get him off my foot, until finally I had to resort to biting.  It was gross. I wouldn't suggest it to anyone. lol. But you gotta do what you gotta do.


----------



## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

^omg haha thats so funny! and the bitting actually worked??


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Ouch! That must have hurt!

Yum, horses. "Om nom nom!" I can't imagine a mouth full of horse fur tastes any good...so I think I'll stray from that as a reprimand! Ha!


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

When I have a horse that is being reluctant about giving me his foot, I make sure I have a rope halter on him, rest my lead rope over on my arm, and as I bend over to have the horse give me his foot, I tell him "up" and gently run my fingers down the rear of his leg...if he doesn't shift his weight in order to lift the foot, I give him a light pop on the lead rope, in order to get him to shift the weight off that leg, and ask him to give the foot again. As he steps back I will take the foot up, and praise the horse with a "good boy/girl". Often I will give it right back, especially if it's a young, or untrained horse. If he's just being obstanant, then I will hold it for a few seconds, give it back and start over, so he relearns that me running my fingers down the leg is his cue to lift, NOT the cue to back up that I give him with the halter. I don't want to use the halter, but will use it to reinforce my desired cue and response to it. 

Now on the topic of 'hitting' a horse...I'm perfectly certain that you would hurt yourself before you hurt the horse, by smacking him in the leg with your bare hand, especially if it's flat. I just don't like smacking or tapping the leg in order to get them to lift it, because often they will lift it fast in an effort to get rid of the annoyance of the tapping; then you run the risk of being scraped by his foot, or stepped on, even, as well as missing the foot as it comes up, defeating the purpose of tapping to get him to lift it! So, no you didn't hurt your horse, but you may not have taught him anything either.


----------



## redheeler (Dec 29, 2009)

well for what its worth., I have known more than one farrier to smack a horse forcefully in the belly with the flat of a rasp when they insisted on leaning on them, like one farrier told me,"this is what the lead mare in a herd will do with her hind feet to keep respect for herself with the other horses" so I have used this on occaison also when trimming hoofs and they get too pushy.


----------



## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

that's true redheeler, but i've also seen farriers that do that have the horse go over backward and get hurt or hurt the farrier trying to get away from him, too. that may be effective, but i sure wouldn't want to do it if i had a 1200lb horse looming above me on 3 legs, lol. but i guess that's why i don't trim.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

What is hitting a horse? - that is a very good question.

and it follows:Smacking, tapping, caressing, stroking, touching, feeling, walloping
chastising, thrashing, beating,

either with hands or crop or whip

then there are spurs

then what about booting, squeezing gripping.

And when my little 515 kilo playmate comes back at me
there is a nudge, a muzzle nudge, a lick,a slobber, 
a nip, a bite, a kick, a flick

We use these words every day but do we all mean the same when we use them?

I think not, and now I wonder why not?

Oh and what about where we hit them - are all areas of a horse's body equally robust? The rump, the shoulder, the belly, the poll?

Do we treat a colt easier than a mature gelding?, 
do we go easy with a foal?
Do we treat mares easier than geldings?

There should be an accepted scale and a exact interpretation for these words.


Me, - well I have never struck (that's another word) my mare but I have tapped her rump with my hand and I am forever fondling her (that's another). I even kiss her on the forehead - when I can reach.

But Joe - well he was different - the Devil.

What say you all ????????????


----------



## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't think I would hit my horse if she didn't pick up her feet. I would just keep leaning into her and I would not give up until she picked it up. However, my mare picks up her feet before I even touch them. My aunts gelding is the worst though. He's had bad thrush and he anticipates his hoof hurting, so he refuses to pick up a couple feet that got real bad. We just lean into him constantly, and very firmly try picking up his feet. Eventually he will give them to us, and we praise the hell out of him, and give him a few treats.


----------



## mistygirl (May 13, 2010)

If you can hit a horse is not a great question to ask a big group i think. everyone has there own opinions and you have your own. some peole don't hit there horse because it was maybe abuses before they got it or they just don't believe in hitting an animal. then theirs people who will say oh hit your horse with all you might, just do it in 3 seconds from what ever it did or it won't know what it did. horse use body language to comunicate when a horse does something bad to the other horse the other horse does something back the first one to back of looses the battle. I was always tought that safty first there big animals and are dangerous and do things unexspecticly be prepared for what ever they do and tell them in some way they will understand that its wrong or right. there might be times where your horse knows what there doing but they just have there moods and just feel like not listening like us. Its all what you think and works for you.

"a human hand can not hurt a horse."


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> What is hitting a horse? - that is a very good question.
> 
> and it follows:Smacking, tapping, caressing, stroking, touching, feeling, walloping
> chastising, thrashing, beating,
> ...


Love this! There are so many words in the english language, and 'hit' just seems too generalized to discuss. I have never 'thrashed' or 'beaten' my gelding, but I have 'smacked', 'tapped', 'popped' 'walloped' him once with the lead rope, 'nudged' him with my elbow, 'jabbed' him with my finger....the list goes on.

Malice or the intent to hurt should be the defining factor in whether or not its okay to hit your horse.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Excellent post Barry, and very much my point! The way I would think about "hitting" a human is not the way I would think about "hitting" my horse. I remember once, my sister was young and came close to my horse in sandals after being told not to - he accidentally stepped on her toes. The shock was so great, she began screaming and pummeling him in the neck with the sides of her fists - he was utterly confused and just lifted his head out of the way instead of moving his body. The force a 10 year old child was exerting my punching him with fists wasn't even enough to make him do more then go "Leave me alone you nuisance!"

Location is an excellent point as well - I don't believe a human can exert ANY amount of force with a hand or fist to truly hurt a horse on the shoulders, rump or even neck. But using that same slap across the nose is going to get his attention quick and can have lingering effects so you better be darn sure you're doing it for a good reason!

Same with legs - instead of slapping, I will actually take my hoof pick and poke him right in the coronet area if he's being a dink. Keep one hand on his leg so you're prepared to hold it when he lifts, and just give a little poke in the coronet area with a firm "FOOT/HOOF". Horses understand pressure better, so slapping him in the leg or shoulder may work if he's fallen asleep and just needs a wake up, but that little poke has a very firm meaning in a sensitive spot!

People definitely need to remove both the human emotion and human vulnerability from most animals. They're much hardier then us, and the little things that hurt us are nothing but a tick bite to them - depending on location. I would equal a tender and sensitive nose as being one of the areas most like a human - it takes very little force typically to ellicit a strong reaction! Whereas smacking a rump can be likened to hitting a football player in full gear! :lol:


----------



## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm no trainer, but I think it's fine to hit horses when the situation calls for it. Otherwise the horse would be spoiled and belligerent if he was never disciplined. And that's not fun. Or safe. It's really similar to disciplining a child. Your horse isn't going to fear you if you give him a good whack when he's done something naughty, just like a child doesn't fear his parent when he gets spanked. As long as they know what they're being punished for, they won't associate humans with fear. They bite and kick each other all the time and that's a heck of a lot harsher than any reprimand you could give your horse.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

JSB - you have hit the note : 'malice'

The dictionary says malice = active ill will
= desire to harm another
= spite

*So it can never be right to hit a horse with malice, 
or with malice intent, *


The human should not think to chastise the horse maliciously 
and 
neither should the horse intend to kick, bite or hurt maliciously

It fits

BG


----------



## Amy7 (Jun 12, 2010)

If you ask me you should never hit a horse ... Imagine if you was in there shoes what if you did not want to lift your feet up would you want someone hitting you so you lifted your foot up ... 
Have you tried moving him.... some horses like to be moved before they have there feet picked out... 
But no you should never hit a horse ... sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear but you asked ...x.x. amy


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Amy7 said:


> If you ask me you should never hit a horse ... Imagine if you was in there shoes what if you did not want to lift your feet up would you want someone hitting you so you lifted your foot up ...
> Have you tried moving him.... some horses like to be moved before they have there feet picked out...
> But no you should never hit a horse ... sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear but you asked ...x.x. amy


I would absolutely hate to meet any horse you owned.


----------



## Amy7 (Jun 12, 2010)

Would you like to explain your point/view? For me please so i can understand where you are coming from.
I would absolutely hate to meet any horse you owned.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Anyone who can tell anyone that you "should NEVER hit your horse" has obviously not actually dealt with dangerous or problem horses. There is a time and place for everything, and if you actually believe and enforce the idea that your horse should NEVER endure physical discipline, then never want to meet your horse for all the bad habits he would have. Even NH isn't afraid to condone becoming physical to gain a horses attention. You are a lot smaller then your horse, and it's going to be you getting hurt when you stand your ground believeing your horsey worsey would never hurt you.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Amy7 said:


> Would you like to explain your point/view? For me please so i can understand where you are coming from.
> I would absolutely hate to meet any horse you owned.



Amy7,
Let me try to explain the point of view as I have been in this conversation for many,many years and the elements of the sides never change.



The horse is stronger,heavier,faster,and much more dangerous (This creates human fear).

The horse only "Respects" disipline and threat because that is how they communicate in the wild (Even though this horse has never seen a big field let along the wild).

If you do not agree with the above approach you are one of the following

A dope smoking hippy.

A rainbows and butterfly's dreamer that only talks about horses on the Internet.

Someone that has never worked with really tough,wild horses that will put you in the dirt.

This rationalizes and justifies their actions and allows them to not look for other ways to accomplish the same thing (After all, If it was good enough for my Gran dad it is good enough for me).

They are in command of their ship and they choose the destination and the time of departure.

The horse is there to serve them at their will.

I command their hoof to rise and it shall be so! (Or there will be repercussions).

This is also why the automobile was invented...Ha!


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If I am in danger of being bitten, ran over or otherwise hurt then I may have to resort to hitting. If I am trying to communicate with a horse and teach it something then I will not hit it. As soon as you start hitting horses then communication stops. I would not have hit a horse to get its foot up. I may have used a hoof pick to apply pressure to the fetlock to encourage the horse to pick up its hoof but I don't see any reason to hit it. I'm pretty sure that the OP didn't really do any harm to her horse.


----------



## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Agreed with Kevin. I get some pretty nasty animals here sometimes- and if my life is in danger I will smack them.


----------



## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

@Marecare - on some levels I agree. It is certainly no more okay to abuse your horse than to abuse your wife. However, we need to consider horse psychology. Horses practice physical touch with one another all the time. From a nudge or nip to full blown bites or kicks, that's just how horses establish their hierarchy. So in some cases, it may be necessary to deliver a firm, but not harsh smack to remind them that you need to be in charge - which you need to be in order to be safe when working around them. (that said, for respect you must have trust, which cannot be gained with outbursts or frequent violence.) With horses, there are only two positions - leader or follower. Someone has to be the leader. If it's the horse, you may be setting yourself up to get hurt. 

All of that said, there were probably better ways to handle that situation. It is possible that he was just not balanced in the way that he was standing to be able to pick up his foot easily. Sometimes horses just aren't paying attention - we don't pay attention to half of the things they are asking of us! A better way to handle that would be: When he doesn't lift the foot, ask him to back up by touching his chest with two fingers. That gets him paying attention, and helps him rebalance so that he can more easily do what you are requesting of him.

Just try to always remember what a miracle it is that horses even let us climb on their backs. And appreciate it, because riding is a privilege that horses grant us, not a right.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Clementine said:


> @Marecare - on some levels I agree. It is certainly no more okay to abuse your horse than to abuse your wife. However, we need to consider horse psychology. Horses practice physical touch with one another all the time. From a nudge or nip to full blown bites or kicks, that's just how horses establish their hierarchy. So in some cases, it may be necessary to deliver a firm, but not harsh smack to remind them that you need to be in charge - which you need to be in order to be safe when working around them. (that said, for respect you must have trust, which cannot be gained with outbursts or frequent violence.) With horses, there are only two positions - leader or follower. Someone has to be the leader. If it's the horse, you may be setting yourself up to get hurt.
> 
> All of that said, there were probably better ways to handle that situation. I*t is possible that he was just not balanced in the way that he was standing to be able to pick up his foot easily. Sometimes horses just aren't paying attention - we don't pay attention to half of the things they are asking of us! A better way to handle that would be: When he doesn't lift the foot, ask him to back up by touching his chest with two fingers. That gets him paying attention, and helps him rebalance so that he can more easily do what you are requesting of him.*
> 
> Just try to always remember what a miracle it is that horses even let us climb on their backs. And appreciate it, because riding is a privilege that horses grant us, not a right.



I like how you described this and what a nice idea.

Think what the horse needs to understand the idea and then help him complete it.

So much nicer and this makes the handler look a bit more professional also.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

QUOTE 

Just try to always remember what a miracle it is that horses even let us climb on their backs. And appreciate it, because riding is a privilege that horses grant us, not a right.

[/QUOTE]
I like it.

It is the deal horses made with humans centuries ago - "If you humans stop eating us horses, then we horses will accept you humans riding us.

And it is an additional privilege for a human to come to ride a horse


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree with Apachie...it's different, when you are working with a horse, particularly when the horse is tied/being held, and/or you are lifting a foot or something. When lead mare kicks the said horse, that horse is going to naturally want to get away, because said mare has proven her point. Well...if the horse is tied up, has his foot in the air, his instinct when he gets smacked is going to be "I NEED TO GET AWAY!", and the horse will likely not think it through, and could flip itself, squish the farrier, and probably more, because horses are good for getting into "freak" accidents.

And I don't like to hit horses on the really sensitive areas, like the face and stomach for example. I will bop the nose (and not as hard as I might on the shoulder or rump, but not in the horse's actual face.


----------



## Amy7 (Jun 12, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Anyone who can tell anyone that you "should NEVER hit your horse" has obviously not actually dealt with dangerous or problem horses. There is a time and place for everything, and if you actually believe and enforce the idea that your horse should NEVER endure physical discipline, then never want to meet your horse for all the bad habits he would have. Even NH isn't afraid to condone becoming physical to gain a horses attention. You are a lot smaller then your horse, and it's going to be you getting hurt when you stand your ground believeing your horsey worsey would never hurt you.


You said in you reply that anyone who can tell anyone that you "should never hit your horse" has abviously not actually dealt with dangerous or problem horses. Well actually i have worked along side people with problem horse before and helped them to calm down. My friend owns a Shire X and it use to go crazy everytime someone even went near it. So me and my friend decided we was going to work with him and we never rasied a hand to him and now he is fine. All i am saying is i would never raise my hand to a horse espeacially if it was over it raising its foot like this debate started.x. But i understand where you are coming from in what you are saying but to me i would prefer to work round raising my hand to a horse and say use that as the very very last choice.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Amy7 said:


> You said in you reply that anyone who can tell anyone that you "should never hit your horse" has abviously not actually dealt with dangerous or problem horses. Well actually i have worked along side people with problem horse before and helped them to calm down. My friend owns a Shire X and it use to go crazy everytime someone even went near it. So me and my friend decided we was going to work with him and we never rasied a hand to him and now he is fine. All i am saying is i would never raise my hand to a horse espeacially if it was over it raising its foot like this debate started.x. But i understand where you are coming from in what you are saying but to me i would prefer to work round raising my hand to a horse and say use that as the very very last choice.


Assuming the shire was "crazy" out of fear and/or confusion, you were right not hit him. That's entirely different than hitting a horse because he or she is doing something wrong, knowing they aren't supposed to, doing it not out of fear, but to try to dominate or simply be rude.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I think most of the big points have been covered and discussed fairly well; but I would like to add another point to this discussion. 

There is a great difference in temperment in individual horses; that temperment and their place in the herd order dictates how best to discipline or correct them. 

I have known several horses who were so submissive and eager to please that raising your voice to them, or yelling angrily, was absolutely abuse. You could reduce them to quivering wrecks just with your voice. Any kind of physical discipline would be completely over the top and utterly counter productive. Training them was simply a matter of letting them know what you wanted. 

On the other end of the spectrum is one of my current horses; a very dominant and agressive QH gelding who tries to face down and herd a 50HP tractor when I take it into his field. He is, simply but, a bully *if* you let him be, and he requires a very firm hand. The whole reason I have him is that while an absolutely lovely pleasure and trail horse, he is a genius about taking advantage of his handlers. You have to watch him for signs of disrespect, especially crowding into your personal space and not yielding his quarters on the ground. I frequently have to make him back away from me on the ground to establish my place in the herd order. 

The way I discipline this horse would create Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in another horse; he just shrugs it off and effectively says "OK, you win." Disciplining him in the subtle way I would a sensitive horse would result in hoofprints up my front and down my back AND a dangerous situation. 

"Hitting" is neither good or bad. Discipline is about timing, temperment, appropriateness to the disobedience and the liklihood of the discipline producing the desired behavior.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Amy7 said:


> You said in you reply that anyone who can tell anyone that you "should never hit your horse" has abviously not actually dealt with dangerous or problem horses. Well actually i have worked along side people with problem horse before and helped them to calm down. My friend owns a Shire X and it use to go crazy everytime someone even went near it. So me and my friend decided we was going to work with him and we never rasied a hand to him and now he is fine. All i am saying is i would never raise my hand to a horse espeacially if it was over it raising its foot like this debate started.x. But i understand where you are coming from in what you are saying but to me i would prefer to work round raising my hand to a horse and say use that as the very very last choice.


I don't need a shire x to have a 'crazy' horse on my hands. I deal with her on a daily basis, and some days are better than others. She has been let get away with lots of things because she is a big girl...only a quarter horse, but bulky and 16.1 or 16.2. She has no problem kicking both legs out at you with the intent to hurt if she feels like it, nor does she have a problem biting. If she's in a mood, AS SOON as she even takes ONE STEP with her butt towards you, she gets one good smack with the lead rope. She gets ****y, her butt moves away, and you move on. There can be zero room for error around her or guess what, you have the possibility to get a hoofprint on your face.

However, this same mare also suffers from almost debilitating separation anxiety. She just can't think when one of her turn out buddies is taken in from her. She ended up clearing a fence and hurting herself in the process to try and get back to her. Did I hit her then? No. I was very careful to actually _not _touch her until she approached me with a calm and collected demeanor; until then I was just following her around as she trotted frantically, keeping her moving when she stopped. When she's in hand and becomes frantic, we do not hit her to gain her attention. A snap or two of her web halter is all it takes.


----------



## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Personally, the horse I ride is very headshy, so smacking is generally out of the question.

Despite this I have hit her one time. She's really girthy, and always has made faces while putting it on. One day, as usual, she was looking at me and glaring, which I don't mind. It's actually a good reminder that I SHOULDN'T tighten her girth too much too soon. Anyway, she then mimed a bit WHILE doing this. Had I been standing two inches closer she would have bit my shoulder. So I take my free hand and smack her in the nose while saying "STOP IT." Not too hard, not exactly a pat though. She turned away, raised her head really high and sidestepped away from me. I could hardly touch her. After reassuring her humans were not going to hit her like that every time they came near her face, we went and rode. I have never had to smack her since, as whenever I say "STOP IT" she realizes she's displeasing me (her least favorite thing to do) and stops whatever she's doing that possibly is peeving me. I'm not exactly happy I smacked her then, but she respects my presence a lot more than she did in the past.

The moral of the story is, yes, it is okay to smack a horse. Is it necessary? In some situations it is essential. In others it is not. In the OPs situation, there is a good chance that the problem could be solved in some other manner. But there is a possibility that smacking him, during that moment, was the perfect action for the situation. 
It's hard to call one way or another. You really just have to know when it is okay.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Before you become physical with a horse you should make sure you have no other alternative. 

This means if you are striking out of frustration, or because the horse "won't" do something (as in it won't step over, or it won't pick up a foot, if it's blowing up when you do up the girth etc.) you need to seriously take a step back and realize that you will never make anything better this way.

There are few reasons you should need to make physical contact with your horse... 

Refusing to pick up a foot could be for many reasons, a lack of trust, a lack of balance, or the person is attempting to do so in the wrong manner. The horse SHOULD pick up it's foot when asked, without you having to tug, pull or lean on the horse. If not, you need to go over why this might be, in most cases it's as simple as the horse was not standing correctly to balance itself.


----------



## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> QUOTE
> 
> Just try to always remember what a miracle it is that horses even let us climb on their backs. And appreciate it, because riding is a privilege that horses grant us, not a right.


I like it.

It is the deal horses made with humans centuries ago - "If you humans stop eating us horses, then we horses will accept you humans riding us.

And it is an additional privilege for a human to come to ride a horse[/QUOTE]

Sadly Barry, some people don't respect that deal. I wish they would.


----------



## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

maura said:


> I think most of the big points have been covered and discussed fairly well; but I would like to add another point to this discussion.
> 
> There is a great difference in temperment in individual horses; that temperment and their place in the herd order dictates how best to discipline or correct them.
> 
> ...


Amen. My big red mare deals with physical corrections very well. She understand them, doesn't over react and fly off the handle but it gets the point across. She goes "AH HA! Not allowed to do that" and will go back to being pleasant. She used to be quite the stinker but has fallen in line with rare flare ups now.

Did that to my gelding he'd melt into a puddle. You can simply give him a dirty look and that is enough. He gets the point. He's not allowed to do that. Anything more than a firm voice saying "NO" is too much and is not productive.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

draftrider said:


> I like it.
> 
> It is the deal horses made with humans centuries ago - "If you humans stop eating us horses, then we horses will accept you humans riding us.
> 
> And it is an additional privilege for a human to come to ride a horse


Sadly Barry, some people don't respect that deal. I wish they would.[/QUOTE]

People have both ridden and eaten horses since the beginning. I would consider it quite arrogant to assume that was some sort of silent pact - people are riding cows and bison now, did they make the same pact?


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Clementine said:


> Just try to always remember what a miracle it is that horses even let us climb on their backs. And appreciate it, because riding is a privilege that horses grant us, not a right.


I somewhat disagree. I feed them, care for them, work with them, and love them. And I see my right to ask them to pay me back (given they are healthy and capable to do so, of course). In the end I ask for just 1 hour out of 24, while other 23 hours they have life of princess.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I somewhat disagree. I feed them, care for them, work with them, and love them. And I see my right to ask them to pay me back (given they are healthy and capable to do so, of course). In the end I ask for just 1 hour out of 24, while other 23 hours they have life of princess.


Yes, you do all those things... you chose to take on that responsibility.

Here's how I see it, the horse was not designed (by whatever created this world) to carry weight on it's back... it does so because it CHOSES to let you. 

There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with riding a horse, it's just that I really think that people need to forget about the ownership and the feeling that it makes it all fine and dandy to force the horse into being with us. 

Here's the thing - the horse will be with us because it wants to be, if we make things easy and pleasant for it while it IS with us. I don't mean we should never ask the horse to work, just that we should always make sure that we're asking it to work WITH us, not FOR us. 

It is no more a right for humans to 'control' the horse than it is a right your parents have to beat you as they see fit. If you think about it, it's not much of a different situation... they fed you, clothed you, taught you things, spent time with you - by your reasoning they should be able to say/do/ask whatever they want of you since they "own" you. 

The horse can, and will, 'pay us back' in much much more than simply riding time - if we let it. The horse can teach us so much about ourselves and living in our world - just as I would imagine your parents would say you 'paid them back' by simply being the person you are today. (at least I sure hope so...)


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Here's how I see it, the horse was not designed (by whatever created this world) to carry weight on it's back... it does so because it CHOSES to let you.


Horses (dogs, cats, cows, goats...) are not humans and don't have thinking and full range of emotions humans do. Saying horse "chooses" to give us a ride is the same as cow "chooses" to be a ground beef in my sandvich. They have no choice at all for the most parts. Also horses, dogs, etc. are so different genetically from how they were designed originally (thanks to the centuris of selection and breeding) that the way they are build, ability, mind are different from the wild "equivalent".


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Horses (dogs, cats, cows, goats...) are not humans and don't have thinking and full range of emotions humans do. Saying horse "chooses" to give us a ride is the same as cow "chooses" to be a ground beef in my sandvich. They have no choice at all for the most parts. Also horses, dogs, etc. are so different genetically from how they were designed originally (thanks to the centuris of selection and breeding) that the way they are build, ability, mind are different from the wild "equivalent".


There are plenty of horses that, regardless of what they are bred to do, for whatever reason, will only allow a very select few, if anyone, to ride them. Otherwise these riders get flipped, tossed, bucked, or reared off.


----------



## Sphi (Apr 8, 2010)

I do not believe the horse understands the concept of a trade-off. The horse makes decisions on a moment-to-moment basis. “You kicked me, so I’m going to buck.” “You’re pulling on my back when you mount, so I’m not going to stand still.” But I don’t think the horse thinks, “You put a lot of time into caring for me, so I’m not going to bite/kick/buck etc.” Horses will be horses… they aren’t going to trade favors with you.

You can’t say that because horses let you ride them, you should never discipline them. If you are going to ride horses, you need to be in control. Yes, horseback riding is a partnership, but horses are a lot stronger than people so the power cannot be divided 50/50. In order to keep yourself safe, you must exercise discipline and control over the horse.

As you can see in the OP’s situation, the horse is taking advantage of her. He’s refusing to pick up his hoof. Why does he do this? When pain and fear is ruled out, it is clear the horse is simply being stubborn because he can. Because picking the hoof is necessary, the OP must discipline the horse to get him to pick up his hoof.

Horses can hurt us by stepping in the wrong place, tossing their head, or swerving suddenly—tiny movements can seriously hurt us humans. To make up for this, we use a slap, strong words, and our legs and reins to discipline the horses. This is how we keep ourselves safe. If we see riding as a 50/50 sharing of power, a “deal” between horse and rider, we will be taken advantage of and hurt, and we can’t have that.

I’m not trying to say horses hurt humans and humans never hurt horses. I’ve seen what happens when humans take advantage of horses. What I’m trying to say is that horses and humans are NOT equally powerful. It’s a balancing act, but we’ve got to do it because it’s the only way the partnership works. Different horses respond differently, so there is no set rule as others have said. But you have to know what works for your horse and not rule out discipline completely. If you do, you stand a much greater chance of getting hurt.

Horses will be horses. No matter how well you treat them, sometimes they will get excited, stop at a fence, nip at you out of boredom, or refuse to pick up their hoof. You can’t expect your horse to be perfect just because you’re nice to him. And so, the discipline comes in to play.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

justsambam08 said:


> There are plenty of horses that, regardless of what they are bred to do, for whatever reason, will only allow a very select few, if anyone, to ride them. Otherwise these riders get flipped, tossed, bucked, or reared off.


Often it's just lack of training or lack of trust to other riders/handlers. Unfortunately most "not-very-cooperative" under saddle horses are sent to the auction --> slaughter. Most people don't want to deal with such horses (and I can understand why). I'm talking from the position of the owner of such a horse and it's not fun.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sphi said:


> Horses will be horses. No matter how well you treat them, sometimes they will get excited, stop at a fence, nip at you out of boredom, or refuse to pick up their hoof. *You can’t expect your horse to be perfect just because you’re nice to him. And so, the discipline comes in to play.*


Of course it's an animal with its own mind, bad days, etc. It's not a car (and even then car also requires good maintenance and care or it'll break on you when you definitely don't need it ). But that's where training comes in place. My qh is lazy. If she could "choose" she'd just eat and bull everyone around. Do I go with her "choice"? Of course not. And for some people (say ranch people) horses are for work, not for pleasure (like for me for example), so you can't just sit and wait till horse has a "mood" to do something.


----------



## Hukassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I think its fine to smack your horse if he deserves it, 1 smack is not going to hurt anything, but it shouldn't be a close-fisted punch that you put all your weight into, just an open palmed smack. I don't think you should hit your horse repeatedly for one thing they did either, you give them one smack than be done with it and continue working, if they do it again or something else not acceptable another smack (and I usually give them a warning first by pulling on the lead rope or saying their name to get their attention). 
The only thing I try to keep in mind is to smack in the..well area your horse is being disrespectful (won't pick up back feet-smack to the hindquarters, crowding you as you walk- smack to the neck and if they nip at me I grab their upper lip and hold it for 2 seconds, not hard so its pinching but just enough that if he shakes his head I still have hold of it)

Some hitting though is completely unnecessary and horrible. It was the first time I was using this one farrier and he went to pick up my mare's back feet. Ok, she's and older horse (22 at the time) and so she was stiff and can't hold it up like a young horse can and I specifically TOLD this farrier that. Sure enough, he picked her foot up, she pulled it away and he took the handle part of a hammer and and hit her as hard as he could in her flank right in front of me. So I was POed and trying to calm myself so I wouldn't beat the the guy and just yell at him for a good 20 minutes when he went back and picked up the same hoof. Well, this mare is very smart and I don't know if it was on purpose or not (would be pretty cool if somehow I knew for sure it was) but she looked back at the guy, laid her ears flat back and pulled her hoof away again right when he was about to his the nail on the shoe. He ended up hitting himself in the knee as hard as he could with head of the shoeing hammer  made my day. Obviously though that farrier never came back.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Horses (dogs, cats, cows, goats...) are not humans and don't have thinking and full range of emotions humans do. Saying horse "chooses" to give us a ride is the same as cow "chooses" to be a ground beef in my sandvich. They have no choice at all for the most parts. Also horses, dogs, etc. are so different genetically from how they were designed originally (thanks to the centuris of selection and breeding) that the way they are build, ability, mind are different from the wild "equivalent".


They still do not have backs DESIGNED for carrying weight. This is why it's not uncommon to see horses with a sway back. 

And yes, they do have the 'choice'... they choose to go along with you, either because you make it enjoyable for them, or because you make it uncomfortable for them to do otherwise, or they can flip out and crush you. Either way, they make the choice. They do not attach human emotion to that choice - they will take the path of least resistance, but they do make a choice. 

If you really feel that your horse "has no choice" but to take you for a ride then I am saddened for you and your horse.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

> As you can see in the OP’s situation, the horse is taking advantage of her. He’s refusing to pick up his hoof. Why does he do this? When pain and fear is ruled out, it is clear the horse is simply being stubborn because he can. Because picking the hoof is necessary, the OP must discipline the horse to get him to pick up his hoof.


I can think of other situations that don't involve a horse being 'stubborn' but it won't do as the person thinks they're asking. 

There are all 'worlds' of ways to handle horses... most people see one world, theirs.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> They still do not have backs DESIGNED for carrying weight. This is why it's not uncommon to see horses with a sway back.
> 
> And yes, they do have the 'choice'... they choose to go along with you, either because you make it enjoyable for them, or because you make it uncomfortable for them to do otherwise, or they can flip out and crush you. Either way, they make the choice. They do not attach human emotion to that choice - they will take the path of least resistance, but they do make a choice.
> 
> If you really feel that your horse "has no choice" but to take you for a ride then I am saddened for you and your horse.


^

Actually they do, or we'd hurt them. Seems somewhat obvious. A swayback is caused only by damaging the spinal column before it's fused. That's no different then saying because a 2 year old baby could get crushed lifting a weight that humans weren't designed to lift weights.

Everyone ALWAYS has a "choice" if you want to get technical. Whenever a question or an order is posed, regardless if you're human or animal, you have a choice. However, I am not ASKING my horse. I am TELLING my horse. And if he "chooses" not to listen, then he "chooses" me causing him pain. Absolutely no different then me "choosing" not to listen to my parents.

In my mind, the true definition if a choice is the ability to make more then one decision _without negative consequence. _If someone is holding a gun to your head, and out of two choices, one of them is death, it's really not much of a choice. My horse has the CHOICE to eat whatever grass patch he wants. My horse has the CHOICE to drink water now or in an hour from now. My horse does not have the CHOICE to co-operate with me, because in the end, I WILL make him. I am more then happy to make it easy for him to co-operate with me, but at the end, his choice only results in the easy way or the hard way - not the "no way".


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I know a few horses who have a sway back - they weren't even started until the age of 4 or later. There IS damage to their back, it wasn't caused at 2... it was the result of being ridden, albeit badly with ill fitted tack, but my point is it's not always due to being started when the horse is "too young". 

Their back is suspended from wither to croup with little else to support it than muscle. This puts the horse with a pretty good risk to back injuries when carrying weight... if the horse's fitness or conformation are not 'ideal' then the risk increases. 

You obviously have a different method of riding than I do. 

I get my horse (all of them, actually) to work with me, while I lead, lunge or while I ride. I don't need to cause pain to do so, nor do I need to use fear. I simply need to use encouragement while not impeding the horse from doing as I ask. If I have to resort to "making" the horse do something then I'm failing in my communication. 

That doesn't mean I've never caused pain or discomfort... I have. I was taught to "ask, tell, demand"... and the more years I spent with horse the more I realized how unnecessary that way of thinking is. 

I've worked with just over 100 horses, raised in different ways (some wild, some badly handled, some distrustful and others too bold), many of them before I realized "what" I was creating in the horses I worked with and I can't think of a single case where I couldn't have produced a better result with the way I handle horses now. (and I'm not saying I never use discipline... after all I do need the horse's respect, just that it's not a common thing for me to need to do)


----------



## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

If a horse never has a choice, why is disciplining necessary in training a horse? If you can always just force a horse into something, there wouldn't be so many problem horses today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ChloeButler09 (May 2, 2010)

well i would agree with you,in this situation the horse knows right from wrong,if it was a yearling or colt it could have been a differnet situation,bescause they dont know!But even i smack my horses when they get dangourous or rude,when Aj was fooling around running up and down the field he ran strait towards me,as a stubborn kid i am i didnt move,i thaught it owuld have to be him because im the 'boss' he ran straight into me so he got a good slap,and when there on walks and refuse to pull there heads up out of the grass they get a firm tap on the nose,not to hard tho!So take this point,ONLY when tis neccesary and never too much!YHopw this has helped!


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> I know a few horses who have a sway back - they weren't even started until the age of 4 or later. There IS damage to their back, it wasn't caused at 2... it was the result of being ridden, albeit badly with ill fitted tack, but my point is it's not always due to being started when the horse is "too young".
> 
> Their back is suspended from wither to croup with little else to support it than muscle. This puts the horse with a pretty good risk to back injuries when carrying weight... if the horse's fitness or conformation are not 'ideal' then the risk increases.
> 
> ...


Great post Unicorn, well said!


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

equiniphile said:


> If a horse never has a choice, why is disciplining necessary in training a horse? If you can always just force a horse into something, there wouldn't be so many problem horses today.


It depends on what you mean by "choice". To jump on top of me just because she feels like it? No, she does NOT have that choice. To graze when I need her to work (given she's in good health, shape, and weather-permitting)? No, she does NOT have this one either. You don't _*force *_the horse into something, you _*oversmart *_it! With that being said there are people out there who think beating horse into something gonna "teach" it. Of course not! But it's not a matter of giving it a choice or not giving a choice, but just certain people being ***.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> If you really feel that your horse "has no choice" but to take you for a ride then I am saddened for you and your horse.


They don't have any choice when they have to work (and they are healthy, in good shape, and the outside conditions are safe for us both). If I'd go with their "choice" then there would be no riding for my qh (she's very lazy), no deworming (both don't like the taste), no hoof done (my qh not a big fan of procedure), no shots (OMG! that needle and strange looking vet!), no teeth floating, etc.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^ Thank you kitten_Val.

I communicate with my horses just fine thank you - I cannot even remember the last time my Arab mare ever got physically disciplined. I have worked with dozens upon dozens of horses, and I don't BEAT them into submission. My post was entirely about a horse not technically having an option - and I find it absolutely ridiculous that you can sit on your "high horse" so to speak and pointedly ignore the fact that YOUR horse doesn't have a "choice" either. I don't care HOW you do it, your horse doesn't have the CHOICE to kick you without consequence. At some point, your horse has learned that this is bad and not an allowable way to express himself, regardless of how much he does it with his pasture mates. He COULD kick you, but he "knows better" which is exactly the same as removing the "choice" for a horse. A horse is not a HUMAN - you don't let HIM decide if kicking you is a good idea or not. You tell him, however you wish to do so, he is not ALLOWED to. And if the training is done properly, the horse will never arrive at that "choice" ever again.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

The art of training horses is making them THINK they have a choice.

Anyone who truly offers a horse a choice would not last long - Horses rarely make the right (Or what we see as right) choice when given the opportunity :]

In my opinion, horses don't choose to take the path of least resistance - they are obeying 60 million years of selective conditioning and survival of the fittest. They can't disobey the instinct, because 60 million years of experience shows that to disobey that instinct means to die.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I think as long as you arrive in the end with a sane, happy horse who is well mannered, then how you get there doesn't matter as long as it was sensible, safe and the horse was never hurt or scared into obedience.

Each to his own!


----------



## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

exactly wild spot! Let them think they have a choice, or even better, get them to think what you want is their choice. Although I have gotten out of tricky situations by just sitting still and holding on so my horse can get us out. 
Me and rena are going through a phase where I need to let her know I make the decisions, not her. And yes, I have given her a smack a few times when she misbehaves, but there's always a thousand and two ways to skin a cat isn't there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^ Thank you kitten_Val.
> 
> I communicate with my horses just fine thank you - I cannot even remember the last time my Arab mare ever got physically disciplined. I have worked with dozens upon dozens of horses, and I don't BEAT them into submission. My post was entirely about a horse not technically having an option - and I find it absolutely ridiculous that you can sit on your "high horse" so to speak and pointedly ignore the fact that YOUR horse doesn't have a "choice" either. I don't care HOW you do it, your horse doesn't have the CHOICE to kick you without consequence. At some point, your horse has learned that this is bad and not an allowable way to express himself, regardless of how much he does it with his pasture mates. He COULD kick you, but he "knows better" which is exactly the same as removing the "choice" for a horse. A horse is not a HUMAN - you don't let HIM decide if kicking you is a good idea or not. You tell him, however you wish to do so, he is not ALLOWED to. And if the training is done properly, the horse will never arrive at that "choice" ever again.


Someone here has taken my stating that the horse should always have a choice as me saying the horse can choose to do as he pleases when he pleases. 

That's not at all what I meant. But there are certainly better ways of going about getting a horse to pick up it's foot than smacking it... there are ways to get your horse to go forward without smacking it... there's a way of presenting two choices without one of them being "you'll be very sorry if you don't". 

I don't appreciate being treated in that high handed way - and I know animals don't either. They aren't retarded, they simply don't have human emotion. I have seen many horses broken by this sort of treatment, and many more who simply "don't care" anymore.

There is a way to be WITH your horse without the need to dominate it or use physical force. 

I can "sit on my high horse" so to speak and say this because I've been working with horses for over 20 years (over 100 horses and counting... wild horses, feral horses, stable-bred horses, spoiled horses, abused horses... I've fixed up horses other trainers have botched), I've tried many different methods... including the "my way or the highway" one that you seem so fond of.

I can say that what I do now works better than that... it's been a really long time since I've had ANY horse make a choice that put my in any danger - I MUST be doing something wrong. :lol:

My horse DOES have the choice to kick me, it chooses NOT to... not because I'll beat the **** out of it if it does (I have 12 horses here right now, not all of them mine.. not one has ever even thought about it).

My horse maybe doesn't have the ability to choose when it will take me for a ride... but it does choose to let me aboard and allow me to stay there. If it didn't I'd be on the ground, in a lot of pain... 

As someone else said, to each their own. You will not convince me that your way is better though - I've been there, done that, have the T-Shirt... I learned my lesson the hard way, and it nearly killed me.

I'll do what I do... I do quite well at it, it's not nearly as much work - and I'll fix horses who are trained by "my way or the highway" trainers just as I've been doing for years now.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Again Unicorn, your words are powerful. 

I cringe whenever I see someone hitting their horse, smacking their horse and yelling and hollering at their horse with some form of punishment behind it. The horse retreats in fear, or just gets even more sour. 

It drives me bonkers when I see and hear this. All it takes is the handler to learn to just stop and listen to what our animals are trying to tell us, it is amazing how much they have to tell us, if we just learn to stop and listen. But sadly, the majority out there don't listen at all, until situations where the horse gets very loud to be heard happens.

I was at a Hunter/Jumper show that was held at my barn over the weekend, a big LMHJA show, big, packed, crowded. I was there watching Friday during the day all the competators were hauling in and such n such, at the warm up ring watching outside riders get their horses ready for the show ahead.

One lady, on a beautiful blood bay, was going around the jumper ring at a nice canter. I thought, "Oh what a nice pair, quiet, calm, very nice" until *BAM* while they were approaching a fence, the rider put both reins into one hand, and swung back with the other hand and *WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM* on the ***.

The horse refused the fence and the rider went up over her neck. Then the ride grabbed the horse in the mouth and just started hitting the horse - no one could watch it.

Everytime she approached a fence, same thing - hiting the horse with the crop.

If you have to use force such as that to get your horse to jump, you need to stop and listen to the horse and SELL THE HORSE TO A RIDER WHO WILL ACCOMODATE WHAT THE HORSE WANTS TO DO!!! That horse did not want to jump, but it was forced by the rider to do it anyways.

My way, or the highway.


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54 (May 24, 2010)

I think that you guys might be thinking that I abused my horse... I did no such thing. I went to pick up his hoof, he tried to bite me, so I smacked him. I tried again, and he tried to bite me again. So I smacked him again. If he was going to cause me harm, then I should smack him, right? It is unacceptable to try and bite someone, and it needs to be taken care of.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> I think that you guys might be thinking that I abused my horse... I did no such thing. I went to pick up his hoof, he tried to bite me, so I smacked him. I tried again, and he tried to bite me again. So I smacked him again. If he was going to cause me harm, then I should smack him, right? It is unacceptable to try and bite someone, and it needs to be taken care of.


Some people like to go to an extreme about some things. No logical person thinks it is horrible that you smacked your horse. Comparing it to smacking a person is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

And you are correct, biting is bad and does need to be punished.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> *I think that you guys might be thinking that I abused my horse... *I did no such thing. I went to pick up his hoof, he tried to bite me, so I smacked him. I tried again, and he tried to bite me again. So I smacked him again. If he was going to cause me harm, then I should smack him, right? It is unacceptable to try and bite someone, and it needs to be taken care of.


I don't think anyone thinks so. Actually for the last what? 5 pages the discussion just went off-topic to one of those never-ending never-agree-on unrelated to your original post. :lol:


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> I think that you guys might be thinking that I abused my horse... I did no such thing. I went to pick up his hoof, he tried to bite me, so I smacked him. I tried again, and he tried to bite me again. So I smacked him again. If he was going to cause me harm, then I should smack him, right? It is unacceptable to try and bite someone, and it needs to be taken care of.



To the OP all I can say is that you might consider a different approach and examine your attitude as you work with your horse.

These horses are not meat eaters and if they want a piece of you there is a reason and you as the handler can look for that reason or you can say "My way or the highway".
*You have a choice!
*
*Every thing about handling horses has a potential danger to it* and the handler relies on their* "READ" *of the situation to guide them through what they are trying to accomplish.

Working with a horses feet is a true act of trust and faith on *their *part (human words) and it is not given lightly.
The relationship must be built or the act can be viewed as an act of aggression from the horses point of view.
Their feet are their weapon to protect themselves and to flee from danger.

This spirit of cooperation and communication can continue throughout their entire life and they will give you everything they have.

In many ways they are better than us.









If the trust is not there,then the handler is placed in a very vulnerable position.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Marecare said:


> *Every thing about handling horses has a potential danger to it* and the handler relies on their* "READ" *of the situation to guide them through what they are trying to accomplish.
> 
> 
> 
> If the trust is not there,then the handler is placed in a very vulnerable position.


Sorry MareCare -

These photos are the way NOT to handle a young foal. Just one scenario -The foal tries to get a fly and moves wrong - bumps the handler over . . .


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> I think that you guys might be thinking that I abused my horse... I did no such thing. I went to pick up his hoof, he tried to bite me, so I smacked him. I tried again, and he tried to bite me again. So I smacked him again. If he was going to cause me harm, then I should smack him, right? It is unacceptable to try and bite someone, and it needs to be taken care of.


Can you take a moment, go back in time, and think about what was happening, bit by bit. Perhaps you'll be able to see why your horse was doing what he was doing. 

That doesn't mean it's OK for him to bite you, no, not by a long shot - and he did need to be reprimanded for it... what I'm getting at is there was A LOT he was "saying" to you before he actually went to bite. You missed it all, and he bit you to get your attention (for what reason, only you can tell since we weren't there). 

The reason that it's been years since any horse has bitten or kicked me is because I've taken the time to learn the pre-behaviors, I can correct those with just a look, or a shift in my energy - and the kick/bite/strike/bolt/rear/buck never happens, which means I rarely need to hit the horse. 

Your best answer to any equine "problem" is, quoted from a trainer I know, "Learn what happens before what happens happens". Some people may think that's a load of horse buns... I've found that it's true 100% of the time. 

So yes, your horse went to physically go 'after' you, you needed to meet him toe to toe and get 'after' him back, but you could have avoided the whole thing in the first place, while still achieving what you wanted to do (pick up his foot)... not being critical, just pointing it out.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

mls - you're right... the foal COULD knock the handler over, it's possible.

It's possible that when I get on my horse it might spook and I'll fall off, roll underneath it and get trampled. 

It's possible that my 17hh Clyde mare will stumble and knock me over while I'm leading her... 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, yes, maybe not the safest position to be in around a horse... kneeling, but, if the trust is there the horse will usually avoid hurting a person. Can it happen, sure, it can happen with anything we do around horses. 

MareCare - there are several things I DO like about the photos, in spite of the fact they are sort of a "kids don't do this at home" thing. Not the least of which is how you're promoting a relaxed energy within yourself and the foal and helping that foal process what you're asking by your hand placement.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Unicorn, it is basic horsemanship 101 to not get on the ground near your horse. Do not go off on yourself and act like what MLS is saying is so totally off the wall.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

No it's not off the wall at all. I'd prefer if this handler were still on their feet... however, there are situations where being down on the ground might be better than looming over the foal, or wobbling around trying to maintain balance in a crouch. 

I have had to kneel to administer first aid to a horse (a stallion at that)... had to put my head nearly between his hind legs in order to put a wrap to keep pressure on a wound. After he was seen and stitched by the vet I had to repeat that position for 6 weeks, twice a day. There was no way for me to reach what I had to without doing so. 

I have had to get low to trim a young horse who was very uncomfortable with his hoof between my knees as I was too tall for him. I've seen other farriers do this very thing as well... especially when working with mini's. 

I guess what I'm saying is this isn't something people should make a practice of, but it's not really anything to get too excited about.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> mls - you're right... the foal COULD knock the handler over, it's possible.
> 
> It's possible that when I get on my horse it might spook and I'll fall off, roll underneath it and get trampled.
> 
> ...



Well Darlin,

This is where YOU have to practice what you preach.

You already gave the example of the fellow entering the corral and just hopping on any old Mustang he felt like at any time.

May,just maybe there are other people that get along with horses also.


Trust and knowing the horse!


A person can get away with what they can get away with and the pictures are of Me ...A person that has trained hundreds of babies and many more horse in a very soft fashion and without injury to the horse or myself.
Maybe I could give you some lessons.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> No it's not off the wall at all. I'd prefer if this handler were still on their feet... however, there are situations where being down on the ground might be better than looming over the foal, or wobbling around trying to maintain balance in a crouch.
> 
> I have had to kneel to administer first aid to a horse (a stallion at that)... had to put my head nearly between his hind legs in order to put a wrap to keep pressure on a wound. After he was seen and stitched by the vet I had to repeat that position for 6 weeks, twice a day. There was no way for me to reach what I had to without doing so.
> 
> ...


I am going to take a wild guess and say in those situations - the horse was tied or had a handler at it's head.

I trust my horses with my life. But I am experienced enough to know things happen we can not plan for. An unrestrained horse and a human on the ground foolish at best.

Two summers ago a very well respected trainer in our area was kicked in the head by an unrestrained weanling she was doctoring. A friend was outside the stall but the trainer still died. The horse was not a wild, unhandled horse. The filly was not fighting the handler. She kicked at a fly. *Still not something to get excited about*?


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Marecare said:


> A person can get away with what they can get away with and the pictures are of Me ...A person that has trained hundreds of babies and many more horse in a very soft fashion and without injury to the horse or myself.
> 
> Maybe I could give you some lessons.


Are you talking to me?


----------



## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't have a problem with tapping a horse so long as there is a legitimate reason to. With that, the only horses I will ever tap, hit, etc. will be my own because then I know if there is a physical problem with them or if they are just being butts.

However, if my horse takes a bite at me for any reason I will bite them back. Sounds mean, but from then on I've never had a problem. Same reason with kicking. If a horse kicks me I have no hesitation to kick them back.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

ummm... I think you misunderstood something... I actually have just stated that there are times when your position is probably best, and given reasons for why you might want to kneel with this foal rather than stand or crouch... in fact what jumps out at me about these photos is NOT that you're kneeling, but that the horse is very soft, and relaxed about the process. You are helping, with your hand placement, the horse process and learn... your body position is telling the foal there is nothing to fear. 

I wouldn't say to a person "oh yes, just kneel around your horse because it's safe enough". It's something that, generally speaking, most people shouldn't do - because they miss far too much of what's going on with their horse and WILL get body slammed. I've seen it happen. 

As a point in fact, I sit (OH MY GOSH), on a bucket when I trim my Clyde mare's feet (most of my horses actually... there are one or two exceptions, we're working on it). We both find it more comfortable... I actually have sat on the ground to trim my daughter's 10hh pony. I crouch down when trimming my stallion.

It comes down to how well you know your horse and how well you're able to feel how your horse is accepting what you're asking of it. 

I have no problem with YOU doing what you're doing with YOUR horse... it's obvious that there isn't an issue there. I DO see why others would object to it on a 'basic' safety level. 


I actually was not the one being critical of the way you're handling this foal.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

mls said:


> I am going to take a wild guess and say in those situations - the horse was tied or had a handler at it's head.
> 
> I trust my horses with my life. But I am experienced enough to know things happen we can not plan for. An unrestrained horse and a human on the ground foolish at best.
> 
> Two summers ago a very well respected trainer in our area was kicked in the head by an unrestrained weanling she was doctoring. A friend was outside the stall but the trainer still died. The horse was not a wild, unhandled horse. The filly was not fighting the handler. She kicked at a fly. *Still not something to get excited about*?


No. Your wild guess would be wrong. I do not like working with a horse's feet while they are tied... for any reason, but especially if I'm treating a wound that may cause pain. I did not have any handler's available to me for that particular instance. 

I regularly trim my horse's feet - just me, no tying, no handlers. Just respect and trust. When you don't have help you learn to adapt. 

It's unfortunate that the trainer in your story died... sometimes accidents happen, that's why they are accidents. Again, any of my other examples of things we do with horses could result in death... that's part of the risk you take when you work around something close to 10x your weight. 

There are a lot of people who work with horses unrestrained... have for centuries. What makes you think that a person holding a 500+lb animal is going to save someone from injury if things fall apart? What makes you think that if a horse panics and finds itself tied to a solid object it's going to settle down immediately (that's rarely been my experience)

I actually find most horses to be far more co-operative when they don't feel trapped by restraints. 

Again, I'm not a totally green, inexperienced horse person either.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

mls said:


> Are you talking to me?


I actually thought he was talking to me... :lol:


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Just butting into the discussion again here, there are times at which you have to squat/kneel/be on the ground near horses. Not for lifting a hoof...but I have had to do so to treat wounds on the legs, apply hoof polish or conditioner, put on wraps/boots. I mean, it's not like sitting down indian style in front of my horse but it an make my safety just as compromised.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

This thread is about picking up a horses leg and getting it ready for it's life *with* humans.
It is about the acceptance of that care and handling and it is about the approach to helping the horse with that task.

So show me *YOUR *pictures.

Weather you want to wear a helmet or wrap yourself in bubble wrap or rub mayonnaise on your chest before you attempt this is up to you,but I don't get hurt and I don't have to hit anything.

Here are a few more.


Weanling


























Yearling

















No halter










Mustang









I am not suggesting that the 12year old girl that is reading this head out to the pasture and give all this a try unsupervised but it is possible with every bucker,kicker,rank,and abused horse that I have ever worked with.


----------



## payette (Jun 3, 2010)

I have to add my two cents worth about working around unrestrained horses. I personally generally feel safer when the horse is not tied. A tied horse has nowhere to escape to if the s#!t hits the fan for some reason, and is more likely to injure someone while panicking to free themselves. An unrestrained horse will usually avoid trampling someone if they have any other option. It took a long time to gain the trust of my adopted Mustang, and she was prone to spookiness for a long time. I taught her the word "stand" and that enabled us to work in large open areas where there was much less danger of being hurt if she startled. 
Incedentally, that horse is one I would never, ever, ever, hit. Her temperment is such that hitting her would have set us back immensly in the progress of gaining trust, establishing bounderies and leaderhip, etc. On the other hand, my QH mare, who can be pushy and dominant on the ground, has recieved the occasional smack on her rear when she cocked a hind foot at me as I walked behind her, and pinned her ears at me. I slapped her butt and chased her away, and wouldn't let her come back for awhile. . . 
I think the debate in this thread is much like the issue of parents who believe in spanking their children, and those who don't. One side will not be likely to convince the other that their opinion is the right one- but, hopefully, both sides will agree that the consistent use of consequenses and accountability for behavior will accomplish the desired results! Whether you dole out spankings, time-out, loss of privileges, or whatever, if you do so each and every time, without fail, your child will learn. So it is with horses!


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Marecare said:


> So show me *YOUR *pictures.


 
Again who are you talking to?


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

payette said:


> I have to add my two cents worth about working around unrestrained horses. I personally generally feel safer when the horse is not tied. A tied horse has nowhere to escape to if the s#!t hits the fan for some reason, and is more likely to injure someone while panicking to free themselves. An unrestrained horse will usually avoid trampling someone if they have any other option. It took a long time to gain the trust of my adopted Mustang, and she was prone to spookiness for a long time. I taught her the word "stand" and that enabled us to work in large open areas where there was much less danger of being hurt if she startled.
> Incedentally, that horse is one I would never, ever, ever, hit. Her temperment is such that hitting her would have set us back immensly in the progress of gaining trust, establishing bounderies and leaderhip, etc. On the other hand, my QH mare, who can be pushy and dominant on the ground, has recieved the occasional smack on her rear when she cocked a hind foot at me as I walked behind her, and pinned her ears at me. I slapped her butt and chased her away, and wouldn't let her come back for awhile. . .
> I think the debate in this thread is much like the issue of parents who believe in spanking their children, and those who don't. One side will not be likely to convince the other that their opinion is the right one- but, hopefully, both sides will agree that the consistent use of consequenses and accountability for behavior will accomplish the desired results! Whether you dole out spankings, time-out, loss of privileges, or whatever, if you do so each and every time, without fail, your child will learn. So it is with horses!



The lead mare will move any horse in the pasture at will without a halter or stick.
A mother can move a baby without anything but a look or small nudge.

A group of horses will stand over a small baby and watch over it as it sleeps with great care.

Can something happen that is bad?
Of course it can.
It is all a risk and a risk that many are unwilling to take.
Ever time you climb on the back of a horse or walk into their pen or pasture you could be killed by their power.

But they have a choice and that is what is being talked about isn't it.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Marecare said:


> The lead mare will move any horse in the pasture at will without a halter or stick.
> A mother can move a baby without anything but a look or small nudge.
> 
> _They have teeth and hooves._
> ...


 
Marecare - I have asked you twice who you are talking to. Please respond.


----------



## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

I only hit my horse if she is threatening me. I don't hit really hard but she stops when she knows I'm the one that is boss. I wouldn't hit a horse if they weren't picking up their feets. Sometimes tapping them on the hoof with the hoof pick will annoy them so they will pick up their feet or jabbing them in the flank area with your fingers will help as mentioned in one of the posts.
I'm not going to go through 11+ pages to see if you got your problem resolved or not but that is MO.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Unicorn, it is basic horsemanship 101 to not get on the ground near your horse. Do not go off on yourself and act like what MLS is saying is so totally off the wall.


Always, it is a well known fact that there are no "horsemanship 101 rules" when involved with horses. 

There is an unwritten rule to not go underneith your horse, but yet I do with Nelson, because the trust is there. I can be crouched right down under him directly, and I know that during our quiet, calm energy, I wont get hurt. 

My Buddy can lay down on his back infront of his horse, while his horse grazes away - because the trust is there. They have a bond and therefore he can remain calm, quiet and relaxed while in the presence of his horse, because of the trust that is there between the two of them.

Would it be something that I encourage to others to do with their horses? Not at all, because horses are unpredictable and have minds of their own - but I trust my horse and my hores trusts me, we have a bond and that makes me comfortable around him. Our energy is low, quiet and calm. If something happens, then it's my fault - but I'm not going to promote it to people who do not understand the steps taken between the two of us, that formed what is between the two of us to enable me to do these "off the wall" actions when I am with Nelson - thinking that they can do the same, without understanding or taking the same steps that Nelson and I took together.

Don't go on off yourself jumping to conclusions to what Unicorn had to say. No where did she say that MLS comment was off the wall.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

My mare gets her shots, dewormer and medications in the pasture - loose.

Her feet can be trimmed, anytime, anywhere - loose.

I can crawl under her, over her and through her legs - loose.

I can doctor her wounds, located anywhere - loose.

But right, my methods don't work, only the "gentle" approach does. I'll remember that for the next horse I train.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MIEventer said:


> My Buddy can lay down on his back infront of his horse, while his horse grazes away - because the trust is there. They have a bond and therefore he can remain calm, quiet and relaxed while in the presence of his horse, because of the trust that is there between the two of them.


I bet you $100 all trust, quiet energy and whatever else will be gone in a moment when the horse steps in bee nest. :wink:


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

payette said:


> I have to add my two cents worth about working around unrestrained horses. I personally generally feel safer when the horse is not tied. A tied horse has nowhere to escape to if the s#!t hits the fan for some reason, and is more likely to injure someone while panicking to free themselves. An unrestrained horse will usually avoid trampling someone if they have any other option.


Agreed.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I bet you $100 all trust, quiet energy and whatever else will be gone in a moment when the horse steps in bee nest. :wink:


Hey, I'd be gone with the horse! :lol:

Marecare, in response to:



Marecare said:


> The lead mare will move any horse in the pasture at will without a halter or stick.
> A mother can move a baby without anything but a look or small nudge.


There again, the horse-human relationship is different than the horse-horse relationship. While I believe in using the same "language", sometimes, you have to speak the language a little loudly with horses, why? Because we are not horses! We are much smaller, and we don't want them to question our dominance for too long! There ARE plenty of horses who never need to be hit. There are plenty who don't need halters, don't need whips. But there are plenty of horses who want to test their handlers at any chance they can get - THOSE are the horses who need to be "spoken" to in horse language a little louder. My pony would be using me to wipe his hooves on if I didn't "speak loudly" to him when he acts up.

A mother can move a baby so easily because she's the mother and the baby is smaller than her...we are the size of a foal, if not smaller in some cases. Given, most of us _can_ move our horses with a gentle nudge. But just saying, humans are not exactly in the position of a mare with a foal!


----------



## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

DressageIsToDance said:


> Hey, I'd be gone with the horse! :lol:
> 
> Marecare, in response to:
> 
> ...


 
you explained it perfectly.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

DressageIsToDance said:


> There again, the horse-human relationship is different than the horse-horse relationship. While I believe in using the same "language", sometimes, you have to speak the language a little loudly with horses, why? Because we are not horses! We are much smaller, and we don't want them to question our dominance for too long! There ARE plenty of horses who never need to be hit. There are plenty who don't need halters, don't need whips. But there are plenty of horses who want to test their handlers at any chance they can get - THOSE are the horses who need to be "spoken" to in horse language a little louder. My pony would be using me to wipe his hooves on if I didn't "speak loudly" to him when he acts up.
> 
> A mother can move a baby so easily because she's the mother and the baby is smaller than her...we are the size of a foal, if not smaller in some cases. Given, most of us _can_ move our horses with a gentle nudge. But just saying, humans are not exactly in the position of a mare with a foal!


Well said!


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

~There again the horse human relationship etc etc etc"

Sounds to me a little bit like back in the old days an Englishman teaching a foreigner how to speak English - we tended to shout and those foreigners usually understood what we were saying once we have given them a clip round the ear.

We lost an Empire, behaving like that.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> ~There again the horse human relationship etc etc etc"
> 
> Sounds to me a little bit like back in the old days an Englishman teaching a foreigner how to speak English - we tended to shout and those foreigners usually understood what we were saying once we have given them a clip round the ear.
> 
> We lost an Empire, behaving like that.


Sorry... this just made my day, I nearly spewed tea all over my computer when I read that!


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> ~There again the horse human relationship etc etc etc"
> 
> Sounds to me a little bit like back in the old days an Englishman teaching a foreigner how to speak English - we tended to shout and those foreigners usually understood what we were saying once we have given them a clip round the ear.
> 
> We lost an Empire, behaving like that.


Unfortunately it's really not the same thing, IMHO.

There again, you just cannot use human-human behavioral situations to compare and contrast with human-horse relationships. It's oranges and apples.

Physically striking a horse isn't teaching them a new and unfamiliar language, its speaking a language they naturally know.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

DressageIsToDance said:


> Unfortunately it's really not the same thing, IMHO.
> 
> There again, you just cannot use human-human behavioral situations to compare and contrast with human-horse relationships. It's oranges and apples.
> 
> Physically striking a horse isn't teaching them a new and unfamiliar language, its speaking a language they naturally know.


True, IF the strike is timed and aimed appropriately... the problem is, a lot of HUMANS strike in an inappropriate manner. If you aren't careful with the timing and placement of a strike you lose the part that the horse understands.

9 out of 10 times a lead horse doesn't need to actually use physical force to get their point across. It's not all body size either that makes them successful at it, as I've seen a 10hh pony boss around a 17hh Clydesdale without ever needing to resort to physical "striking" to make that much larger horse move. 

When a horse strikes at another horse they do so in an appropriately timed manner, and with a placement that will have meaning to the other horse as well. A fact many people seem to not understand and/or ignore when they decide to 'disclipline' a horse.


----------



## EpicAnomaly (Apr 13, 2010)

*: )*

The only time I give a horse a smack is when they go to kick or bite..
(or do anything unacceptable and disrespectful)
One of the ranch horses will try to bite you everytime you try to tighten her saddle.. and if you smack her on the side of the neck, she stops..
It doesn't hurt the horse.. just makes them realize that they shouldn't be doing that..

As for hitting your horse because it wouldn't pick up it's foot.. That's not necessary..
Because the horse doesn't really know why you hit it.. so it's not helpful in that situation..

There are many ways to get a horse to pick up it's feet..
Do you lean into the horses shoulder while your picking it up?? (it takes the weight off that leg)
Or some people pull up on the hair thats on the fetlock.. (but of course that wouldn't help if you clip that part... haha)

: )


----------



## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

An easy trick I learned to get a horse to pick up his foot.

1. ask him to pick up his hoof by whatever method you chose
2. If he refuses, bend over and grab his hoof in the normal position you would hold it to check them, then lean into him. 

And don't be shy about it. Put all your weight into his shoulder. If done correctly, you will throw him enough off balance that the horse is forced to pick his foot up to regain his balance; at which chance you have his hoof to look at.

I find its a better option than hitting. I use hitting as a last resort technique to disipline the horses I work with.


----------



## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

DressageIsToDance said:


> Hey, I'd be gone with the horse! :lol:
> 
> Marecare, in response to:
> 
> ...



Here is the *"CORE" *of the difference indeed.

The very nature of the horse seeks a general overall cooperation MUCH more than most human examples and when the horse is left in a* Balanced* environment (food,shelter,and consistent safety)they become MORE predictable and aimable in general.

Humans on the other hand begin plotting how to dominate the neighboring tribe and enjoy all the spoils of the conquest.


It is this very nature that has allowed the human race to place them under out burden and on dinner plates for 5000 years.

Never has a loyal and consistent worker been rewarded with such a retirement plan.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Cattle and oxen have also been reliable, loyal, and consistent workers for mankind at least as long as the horse. 

Yet we still eat them, and no one is bemoaning that as horrible or abusive, so I wonder why you're picking out the horse as being more deserving, MareCare.

_All_ animals are predatory and territorial, so it's not just humans who fit into that category. Even horses fight each other over property, food, and mating rights.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> _All_ animals are predatory and territorial, so it's not just humans who fit into that category. Even horses fight each other over property, food, and mating rights.


Even the cute white tail deer that hang out in my yard! A group of bachelor bucks were playing king of the mountain on our rock pile the other day. It was fun to watch but it was obviously play being practice for real life stuff.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

TheLastUnicorn - I stated basically the same thing several pages back - you are absolutely right, timing is important, because if you hesitate and wait about, the horse isn't going to understand why it was being hit. If you can get the timing right, the horse DOES understand.

And you are also correct that physical force is not always used with horses - but it cannot be denied that it IS normal and often used in group situations to display dominance.

IMHO, it's kind of like if I only spoke English, and someone who spoke only French tried to tell me something. Signifying horse "lanuage" and human "language". I won't understand the French, and the French speaker won't understand my English. If I spoke in French to them, even if it wasn't perfect, they would be ten times more likely to get the gist of what I was trying to convey to them.

That's a rough comparison though. Horses see the world totally different from humans. Their agenda and understanding of life is totally different from the human's way. In some areas, I believe there are similarities. But socially, their world is just not the same, and I believe a human's social relationship with their horse is important and carries over to so many other things.

No matter how you go about it, whether you do physically punish your horse or not, the important thing is a happy horse that has a healthy "social status" with their human.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

A knack for horses said:


> An easy trick I learned to get a horse to pick up his foot.
> 
> 1. ask him to pick up his hoof by whatever method you chose
> 2. If he refuses, bend over and grab his hoof in the normal position you would hold it to check them, then lean into him.
> ...


For the horse in your avatar, I'm sure that works fine. Try and see if you can lean into my gelding hard enough to throw him off "balance", I don't care how large or strong you are, Claymore can out muscle you every time. Come on out and try it, I dare you. I prefer to minimise the sweat and struggles, a firm knock with the back of the hoof pick and his foot is in the air. And you know what, my horse still loves me.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

DressageIsToDance said:


> TheLastUnicorn - I stated basically the same thing several pages back - you are absolutely right, timing is important, because if you hesitate and wait about, the horse isn't going to understand why it was being hit. If you can get the timing right, the horse DOES understand.
> 
> And you are also correct that physical force is not always used with horses - but it cannot be denied that it IS normal and often used in group situations to display dominance.
> 
> ...


 
Well, if we take your rough comparison and expand it so that it sort of covers the OP's question though you might be able to see what I'm trying to say. (and I suspect Barry and Marecare as well)

You have your French speaking person, and you speaking English. You would like the French person to move over... but he doesn't understand what you're asking - do you then wind up and hit him... or shove violently into him? He'd understand you then right? In most cases, I'd like to think, human-human you'd be trying hard to find another way to communicate... since a total stranger who is simply not understanding you might take your hit/shove and think you want to fight. 

I've never said you should never hit a horse because it's mean. I've said that you need to be very careful about when and how you use physical discipline. Horses don't just need good timing, but good placement of physical reprimands - there are 'sections' on the horse which mean different things... if you hit a horse in the "wrong" section for the behavior he exhibited, even if it's well timed, he's going to miss the majority of your message. Other horses never miss what section they need (they know instinctively) and they never miss the timing either... that's the biggest difference between humans using 'discipline' and the horse using it. 

Most of the time, we can get our point across, to the horse, without needing to resort to hitting them. People overlook or forget this for some reason... they only see the horse is not responding to them and figure "it must be the horse's fault... I'm going to hit him and make my point". They COULD take a second and think "WHY is my horse not responding to me... is he REALLY trying to be rude, or is he simply telling me I'm not asking right,or is unable to comply?"

I.M.E If your horse is not doing what you wanted/expected him to do it's the HUMAN at fault . I'm not Parelli fan by any means, but, I once read something of his I think bears repeating. "If your horse gives you the wrong answer, you either asked the question wrong or you asked the wrong question."

_



All animals are predatory and territorial, so it's not just humans who fit into that category. Even horses fight each other over property, food, and mating rights.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=663190#ixzz0r7oSnPGH[/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

_


> No. Prey animals cannot be predators (unless you're a blade of grass!)
> 
> *
> 
> ...


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm not the one putting human emotions onto horses, so no worries there.

True, herbivores aren't predatory in the sense that they kill to eat. 

However, herbivores _do_ kill each other on purpose, and have also been known to kill animals that they recognize as dangerous to themselves. Killing is not just the provenance of predators.

Wildebeests will kill lion cubs, and horses will kill wolves, for two examples.

To say that horses are peaceful and coexist without hurting each other is not exactly correct since they _will_ kill for territory, mating rights, or to protect themselves.

Nature isn't kind, and animals' lives, especially prey species, tend to be short and brutish. Their imperatives are to eat, mate, and survive. Prey species live in herds because it's safer in numbers.

If humanity left animals alone, they'd still do the same things they've been doing for millenia. I don't put moral or ethical values on what animals do, because they don't have the cognitive abilities to think that way.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm sorry, I've seen countless equine disputes in the wild.. never once saw another horse deliberately kill another, or accidentally for that matter. Even the stallions during breeding season ceased fighting when one submitted. They don't WANT to kill - it's not in their nature to SEEK a kill. 

That's for predators - wolves, bear, cougar, mink... HUMANS. Predators eat meat - and often kill for "pleasure" (meaning they will kill, occasionally, for no other reason than to kill). The horse does NOT. 

I've never seen one kill a deer/elk/goat to defend 'food' or territory. I've seen herds of two species share land... I've never seen them try to kill each other, chase each other a little to make 'space' but nothing more than that. I've seen a horse defend itself from a bull moose bent on killing IT... but again, it wasn't looking to kill the moose - it just wanted to survive. 

I spent 6 months amongst them. The only dead horses I saw were dead because a predator killed them, or, they were sick/injured and died. 

Yes, they will kill a predator - but they don't hunt them... they kill for defense. Of course every animal will protect itself - prey or predator, that is far different than a 'predatory nature'.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> You have your French speaking person, and you speaking English. You would like the French person to move over... but he doesn't understand what you're asking - do you then wind up and hit him... or shove violently into him? He'd understand you then right? In most cases, I'd like to think, human-human you'd be trying hard to find another way to communicate... since a total stranger who is simply not understanding you might take your hit/shove and think you want to fight.


I'd be careful making such statements. It very much depends on culture, and what you find to be violent in one county is absolutely norm in the other. For example, I went to Korea for the business trip. Couldn't speak any Korean what so ever (and people there don't speak English). It was pretty norm when they want me, say, to move or to show something or just stop, just grab your hand or shoulder and move you. I'm 100% positive if someone here in US would do that it'd be an abuse (harassment, etc. etc. etc.). And I must admit that was the friendliest country I've ever been (and I've been in number). I can just keep going about other countries, habits, culture, but I'd think that's good enough example.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Yes, they will kill a predator - but *they don't hunt them... they kill for defense.* Of course every animal will protect itself - prey or predator, that is far different than a 'predatory nature'.


 Here is the true story posted on my local forum:

*******************************************
If anyone has ever seen or heard of anything like this before Iâ€™d like to know about itâ€¦




Saturday morning we went up to feed horses and there were two deer in the pasture. Our saddlebred (the nasty one!) got crazy when he heard the grain bucket and started running the deer down. They, of course, panicked. One managed to clear the fence and get out of the pasture but the second one hit the fence and fell back into the field and the horse proceeded to stomp on him until he was dead. This was a young buck with antlers, not a small baby. I was horrified. Has anybody ever heard of a horse attacking wildlife like this?
*******************************************

I've seen number of times my horses attacking the innocent animals (raccoons, groundhogs, etc.) just "out of blue" running after them with bared teeth and trying to kill them with the front feet. I was just about a sec from loosing my old outdoor cat when they started to jump on top of her. Thank God they missed on 1st attempt, and I was fast enough to chase them away from her. So what kind of "_*defense*_" is that?


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BTW, TheLastUnicorn, I'm not trying to go after you.  I just disagree with the certain statements you make.


----------



## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

This thread seems to be getting very philosophical, with all these quotes from the dictionary and colorful analogies. I think it breaks down to whether or not to discipline your horse via force - a physical action, a short, mainly one-sided message - or the communication one engages in when they choose to discipline via pressure, release, and repetition. I think the most insightful comment made in this thread was by kevinshorses, in which he said that "the conversation ends there" when you decide to take a shortcut and use force to correct your horse. It certainly rings true for me. The very few times I have employed force, I was demonstrating my own self-preservation - no, you can't bite me! no you can't rear right next to me! I didn't want to "conversate" with her about it. I wanted to stop the action right then and there, and then start the training to truly correct the problem afterwards. I don't think you should hit your horse unless you are the one who's safety is being comprimised. Why hit your horse if they don't pick up their foot in a "yes maam, thank you maam" type way, or move over as soon as you ask. You can condition the response and it is longer lasting if you actually train (or-retrain) them to do it as you would like it to be done. You'll find alot of people that have completed training their horse fully utilizing "pressure, release, and repetition" - no hitting involved. If done correctly, they would be happy to show you their horse. You won't find so many that have fully utilized force and physical means to train a horse - they would be too embarrassed to show you what their horse has become, if it hadn't been sent to slaughter already.

Horses act on self-preservation, and survival instincts, and fight and flight are their primary defense skills. Most horses use the ladder, with a few employing "fight" - which is why you may get those horses that stomp snakes or other small animals. It's _usually_ their last resort, or they've been placed in a situation where it had been so many times, that they learn it is what they must do to make it another day.


----------



## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

Interesting read, this thread has been.

Seahorseys, I agree. My own thoughts mirror yours.

I believe that there is a time and place for physical discipline such as bopping your horse on the nose if he bites or tries to bite. If the horse is endangering your safety at that moment, then, yes, I see no problem with a well-timed smack. My gelding used to bite and aimed to inflict damage. Once he got my arm and it was swollen, stiff and black and blue for a week. The next time he tried it, I whopped him on the nose with the brush. Hard. He's never bitten or tried to bite me again, and is not face shy. 

I do not tolerate dangerous behaviours such as biting. However, in the OP's case, hitting her horse for not lifting a foot was one of those situations where a physical reprimand was not warranted. All the horses I've known have had occasional slips of mind when it comes to foot lifting. Sometimes you have to arrange them so they can balance better. Other times I may have to persistently squeeze/tap/lean my weight into the shoulder. Horses do understand a smack or whop, they use it on each other all the time. It should just be used with discretion, and of course timing. If you smack your horse for every little thing, they will get confused and probably develop fear issues -- because that is not how the language works. Respect, gentleness, kindness always -- and a bop on the nose for an immediate reprimand to a dangerous and dominant behaviour such as biting, with training steps taken which do not involve hitting to resolve the issue for good afterward, if need be.

All this and more has been discussed to death already. I wanted to add -- as far as horses being primarily peaceful animals, yes that is true -- but they certainly do have the capacity to kill and maim in instances other than self preservation.

A somewhat extreme example, wherein a wild stallion kills a young foal (might be slightly graphic to some)





True, he may have sensed that this baby posed a chance of attracting preds...or perhaps he knew this was his rival's get and he may have just been doing what is often seen in the wild with many other species -- killing off his competitor's young in order to be more successful -- but it's still a documented behaviour of "random" violence that is certainly not unique to the predator group. I have personally witnessed a doe during mating season -- without a fawn, mind -- separate herself from the two other does who were grazing and attack and seriously injure a small loose dog who really wasn't doing anything threatening.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

But that's just it... it's "random", not a behavior that is normal for equines to demonstrate. 

I have seen horses stomp another animal until dead. The thing is, it's never really been a case where I would say the horse was being "predatory" as the horses didn't go sniffing around until they found 'prey' and kill it, they've simply found themselves in a situation where they felt it necessary to be physical and the other animal was killed in the process... the only time I've come across horses that seem to hunt for something to kill are ones who are actually ill. I think it comes down to how you interpret the word "Predatory" - I take it to mean "to seek with intent to kill" 

I've seen that clip of the wild stallion before, a number of times. Again, it's not what I'd consider a "Normal" occurance, and I wouldn't say that this stallion's behavior makes horses (in general) predatory. They discuss different reasons for why he might have done what he did... one makes him sound predatory, the other makes him sound like what he is, a prey animal trying to survive. 

I've watched wild stallions interact with offspring of other stallions and never witnessed even an attempt at a kill. We were in an area where 3 small bands lived... we also had domesticated horses with us. 

Kitten - in answer to your question, I will bring up a point I've made before. When we keep horses we make their lives very unnatural and behaviors that are "odd" start appearing. There are a number of theories I've heard on why that might be.

Generally speaking the horse will use as much force as needed to be "safe" - occasionally they kill something because of their power, I just don't think they can be considered predatory. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If anyone puts together a readers digest condensed version of this thread PM me. I fell asleep reading some of these posts. All the OP wanted to know was if hitting her horse to make it pick its feet up was okay or not. Now the discussion has morphed into who can post the longest dryest comment. So far the front runner is Thelastunicorn followed closely by Thelastunicorn.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)




----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Kitten - in answer to your question, I will bring up a point I've made before. *When we keep horses we make their lives very unnatural and behaviors that are "odd" start appearing.* There are a number of theories I've heard on why that might be.


We are. All animals are so domesticated and genetically different from the wild one (and I mean not just horses), that every animal needs a somewhat different approach in training. 

Kevin, I do agree that it's more of philosophical discussion, which went off-topic many many pages back, but why not? It's been interesting to read different opinions (and if someone is not interested why to read in first place).


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


>


****! Cute cat.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Don't really want to get into the philosophical stuff, but have another story about a horse attacking another creature.

Latte attacked a lamb not long ago - Dad was moving a small mob (10 I think) of flyblown lambs to the yards to be doctored. They had to go through the paddock the horses are in. The paddock is about 10 acres or more, and the horses weren't near the sheep, and the horses are all used to the motorbike going through the paddock. 

Latte came across the paddock and charged, teeth bared, and proceeded to stomp a lamb until dad could chase her off. It almost died but managed to pull through.


----------



## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

In regards to horses going out to kill...well, naturally, horses, when they have the choice, choose flight over fight. But a couple of testosterone charged stallions may well fight to the death if neither submit, although it's most likely one would back off eventually.

But I honestly don't think it is commonplace for horses to seek to kill for simple means of showing dominance, food rights, ect.

I gotta admit, kevinshorses is right...we are all going in circles here, really. The OP's horse was being rude, he tried to bite and refused to lift his hoof. She physically disciplined him. She wanted to know if it was the right thing to do...well,we gave her PLENTY of information to form her own opinion on. And then somewhere in the pages we started repeated ourselves. Haha!


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ROFL.

It's hilarious, but yesterday I noticed a massive chunk out of Zierra's hoof so I grabbed the rasp to fix it. I am in practice of shaving her fetlock hair as she wears SMB's and it's easier to keep her legs clean. I'm no farrier, I was just attempting to get the worst of it smoothed out, so I kept picking her foot up and putting it down to examine. I checked her other front foot, and she was so busy nibbling some grass, she assumed that was that and was steadfastly IGNORING me asking her to pick the other foot up again - so I slapped her! Just a "HEY YOU!" and an open palm slap on the side of her leg and it was an instant "Oh you? Well, here then!"

It just made me muse over how we use the terms, and if that was as innocent as what the OP did, how such a big stink is made for nothing. I couldn't have hurt her more if I kissed her on the nose, and she certainly didn't take anymore offense to it then someone yanking on her fetlock hair!


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I do wonder about the whole "true nature of the horse". I think I must spend a lot of time being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not far down the road from me is a herd of horses, mainly mares ranging from ages 21 down to three. There is a stallion on the property and he is kept well away. There are also three geldings in the mob. Most of the younger horses are the offspring of the older girls so it is a family group and a well established one. I used to spend a lot of time just watching them and they exhibited some seriously nasty, brutish, aggressive and violent behaviour. One particular mare, her name is Elegance, she is at the bottom of the barrel and she is covered in scars. The last time we brought all the horses in she had to be seperated because three of the other horses got her in a corner and proceeded to rip the **** out of her. My neighbour had to set his pack of dogs on the horses to extricate Elegance from her predicament. Elegance was ok but couldn't be ridden anyway because she had a massive piece of skin torn off her back from an earlier attack. Elegance was born and bred in this mob, her dam was the head honchess in her day of these same horses. Every now and then a horse will go out of its way to attack this mare, I have seen it time and time again. Why? 

When I was looking for a new horse before I got Phoenix a friend told me that her a trekking buddy of hers had a Clydie X mare that might have been good for me. The woman loved to ride her horse, she took it trekking and hunting, it never put a foot wrong. She was reluctantly going to sell it because it was killing her chickens. It would chase down a chook and pound it into the ground. She had become concerned about her grand kids around this horse, she wasn't sure if this behaviour could degenerate into killing any small thing.

My own mare bullies one of our pigs something awful. We have three pet pigs and Phoenix is good with two of them and an absolutely nasty and vindictive sod to the other. She will go out of her way, will even leave food (gasp!) to give Red the bash. 

Based on my own experiences, things I have seen with my very own eyes, I don't get where the whole "horses never harm without cause, only kick, bite etc in self defense, are naturally peaceful, calm, quiet, creatures that are incapable of having violent tendencies" school of thought comes from. I have got to be hanging out with the wrong type of horse!

Sorry Kevin, I just thought I better join the competition for longest dryest post in the history of this thread.


----------



## maz78 (Jun 15, 2010)

In a herd situation, the leader will bite, kick or do whatever neccessary to get the herd to do what he wants. Aren't we always as horse riders saying you need to be the boss, be the leader. This doesn't mean we need to beat our horses, but a slap on the rump, or shoulder I'm sure isn't going to damage the horse, just a reminder that you are the boss. Different if the horse is doing it out of nervousness, pain or fear, but sometimes they just say "you make me". Wouldn't be horses if they didn't give the occassional challenge.


----------



## Trinquete (Jun 22, 2010)

*Why would you compare that to a horse situation?*



alexischristina said:


> Perhaps in this situation it wasn't the best example of a reason to get physical, but comparing this to that situation doesn't make much sense to me, because it really isn't the same.


I agree, giving a horse a little slap on the rump is A LOT different than smacking a woman. WTH?


----------



## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

Honestly, if the horse was just being disrespectful, a smack on the shoulder or chest is more to get their attention than harm them. They should yield to your request rather than resisting. Like the others said, you're not gonna harm the horse unless you're striking them in the face. I think it was ok, but like alexischristina said, you have to mean it. I really doubt your horse is gonna be afraid of you for this, but he might respect your wishes a little more.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

There is NOTHING you cando with your _bare hands _to hurt a horse. Or at least, nothing that will cause serious damage in the long run. I've been known to be aggressive if the horse isnt listening to me. Like if Rebel runs me over going out of the gate I plant my feet in the dirt and smack him hard, then pop his shank and make him back up. If I'm in the barrel arena and I need speed, I will either use my crop to give a good wack on the butt or I will use my hand and reach back and give him a smack. There is a differance between abuse, discipline, and incentive. 

Now, i you were to just randomly smack your horse whenever, then you will probably end up with problems.


----------

