# Rubbing their heads on you



## xander (Dec 9, 2011)

What is the best way to handle horses rubbing their heads on you? I've read a small slap, a firm "no", a fingernail poked into the gums/side with a firm "quit", pushing their heads away.

Thanks,
xander


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You need to teach the horse not to invade your space, that is a circle around you the length of your arm. You can do this by using a riding crop and just waving it side to side (about waist height) rhythmically. If he walks in to it, he'll back up or at least move away. Usually once is enough for him to respect the crop so you have to do this consistantly until he learns how close he's allowed to come. You can also train a voice command at the same time. Be sure to give him a good rub under the halter or bridle as they are often itchy because of the thicker winter coat.


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## SarahAnn (Oct 22, 2011)

I have one mare that loves to have her head scratched (like above where her eyes are) but she isn't a fan of being touched. So she'd prefer to just rub her head on me. I do NOT allow her to rub while tacked up, bridled, or on a lead. Ever. But when she is in her stall and I go in to visit her, if I INVITE her to rub on my back, she will gladly do it. 

I always taught them not to do it with a jerk on the lead line/ shank, and a firm NO. That is the same thing I do to discourage ANY behavior that is unacceptable. That way it consistent, and they understand that the jerk and firm NO means that what they were doing was unacceptable. None 
of mine have really ever been what I would consider "problem horses" so it's works just fine for me. 


If your horse isn't on a lead or anything and is doing something unacceptable a firm clap and a NO is what I would do. They don't like the sudden clapping sound and it gets their attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Whenever one starts to rub on me, I will drive them out of my space immediately, usually by pushing them to back up for 10-15 steps or until they are moving in a relaxed and respectful manner. I'll do that every single time they touch me with any part of their head. If that doesn't quell the problem (usually it does, though), I am not above giving them a firm slap on the nose or jowl to get their head away from me. 

However, if I resort to smacking them, I make sure to spend plenty of time around them desensitizing them to fast movements of my arm and scratches/pats on their head. If you smack them and _don't_ do this, you'll end up with a headshy horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

My horse gets a very itchy little head after he is ridden (poor guy ). He is not allowed to scratch anything with his bridle on and when it's off he is not allowed to rub on me. He has a curry mit that he loooves to rub his head on and I'll scratch him with it - so leaning on my hand in that instance is acceptable, if the pressure is too much, I simply remove my hand. Same with when I was teaching him acceptable behavior - I simply removed what he was scratching on. Either by moving his head away from the solid object or simply taking a step back, or moving his body back away from me.

It's very simple to teach a horse not to do something. You must remain very consistent and correct the behavior - not punish it. A "tchhh" or "ahh" ALONG WITH moving the horse away from the object they are trying to scratch on is sufficient, however it is also about timing. If I can catch the horse eyeing a post or my shoulder and I say "tchh" and reposition him often times the vocal reminder is enough to interupt the behavior from even beginning.

A respectful horse begins when you understand their body language and start communicating dominance on their level. Correction through body language is huge and for humans it is simply easier to put a vocal cue with the correction. My horse knows "tchh" is his correction cue and he knows the boundaries and that cue means "you're toeing the line there bud" in a variety of situations. Because his handling is done primarily by myself and I am extremely consistent in how I expect his behavior to be every time I am around him, he knows what the "tchh" is about and if he doesn't react I am there to re-enforce my cue by physically moving him where I would like him to "self correct" to on the small verbal cue...
So even stepping his leg forward for a scratch I simply "tchh" if I am at his side, or taking a step towards his front body if I am at his head is often enough to stop the behavior.

Good luck!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It seems like it might depend. My mare tends to be head-shy, but she will sometimes put her head next to my shoulder and nudge a little. With her - I've had her 4 years now - that is a request for a head rub with my hands. If busy, I'll just tell her no. If not, I hold my hand out and she then rubs her head against my hand. When I pull my hand away, she stops.

She isn't invading my space or acting disrespectful. She is just asking for a head rub.

However, we recently added a small mustang to our little herd. For the last week, he has swung his head into me. And when he did, he'd be blocked with a forearm. And if that didn't stop it after a couple of times, I'd hit my forearm against the side of his face. After 1.5 weeks, he has mostly stopped doing it.

He came from a stable with hundreds of horses, and I think it is his "I'm a cute pony, give me a treat" act. In any case, it is annoying and won't be tolerated.

For me, the difference is that I know my mare well, and Mia is asking. Cowboy is demanding. But blocking with a forearm seems to be getting the point across without any anger or fuss. Just block and continue with what I am doing.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Some may disagree with me, but I don't always disallow this behavior. It all depends on the context in which it's done. If the horse is reaching toward me in a sincere kind of way like he's searching for reassurance I wouldn't want to punish him for that. That's a different deal than when they rub on you like your status is the same as a tree branch. I try to notice the attitude with which they do it and respond appropriately. 

If a horse did rub on me in a way that I considered disrespectful I might start to rub and scratch him back, but a little harder than what he actually enjoys. Kind of like if you were to scratch your own arm harder than what you'd enjoy, pretty quick it would become uncomfortable and you'd stop. That's how I think of it. 

I'm not against popping the lead rope or using your voice in a stern way, and I will do those things when I think they're appropriate but I'm aware of a couple of things when I do it. One, it's apt to make a horse reactive and head-shy if it's overdone and then I have a different problem that I have to go back and fix. Better to avoid creating the problem in the first place. Two, if I use that much firmness habitually it becomes the horse's baseline perception of me. In other words he expects me to be loud and firm all the time. I end up desensitizing him to it and then I end up having to get after him a lot stronger just to get him to do things. That's not my idea of good horsemanship so I try to avoid using firmness unless it's truly necessary. The quieter I am consistently, the more the horse learns to listen and then if I ever do get firm it really has an effect. Finally, I'm real careful that when I do correct my horses that I do so as dispassionately as humanely possible. If I let *anything* that horse does get an emotional rise out of me he will feed off of that and things will get gradually worse instead of better.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I don't allow any horse to rub his head on my body...ever... Think about it; he is 1100 lbs (give or take depending on his breed), and he has a head that is very large in proportion to your body even; why would you even WANT him to think it's acceptable to use you as a scratching post? A horse that is kind and simply asking for a scritch on the nose, or some petting, is a different story...but you have to know the difference, and even there, a horse can get pushy and demanding, so it's up to you to know what you will tolerate, and what YOU feel is rude, and intrusive of your horse. My mare for example is not usually the 'give me face lovin' type, but when she wants it, she simply looks straight into my eyes, and breathes gently in my face...we will usually just sit there like that looking at each other for awhile, while I stroke the sides of her cheeks. 

I do similar to smrobs if I am in a position that I am working sort of at a 'distance' from the animal and he comes into my space...I simply back him out of my space, and I do it with meaning; I want him to know that he is to keep out of my space unless invited to do so. If I am working closely to him, I do like bsms, if I feel that head coming around, I simply raise my arm, and if he hits it, he hits it...he will quickly learn that he needs to just mind his own business regardless of what I am doing to him. 

This does not mean any of my horses, or the horses I train lack any affection or attention, quite the contrary; when they are polite, and quiet while I am with them, they get lots of rubs, brushing, and all kinds of attention; but they do not get it when they demand it...ever; that usually winds up in work, which is not the kind of attention he will be looking for!


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I know that you're not supposed to let horses 'invade your space', haha, but I let my horses rub their heads on me... I'm not very strict with them because I don't have to be with these guys, but depending on the horse, it could be an issue.

I don't really agree with methods such as poking them in the gums or slapping them like I see so many people do, because most of the time, I see horses become head shy with that. My horses only do it when they're itchy, so when they do, I just start to scratch them in the places they're trying to rub. This shows them that it's okay to ask for a scratch when it's bothering them, and I've never had a problem with it, although there are many other factors involved, like the horse's temperament and your overall relationship with them.
If the horse is crossing the line, as in, being forceful and just doing out of lack of respect, that's another issue. That may call for methods such as poking and a firm word, and if that doesn't work, a slap to get their attention, although hitting shouldn't be a first reaction unless needed.


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## xander (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, thanks you guys. When the horse did it to me this afternoon it was because he was mad lol. We had been riding, everything went really well, and he and the lead mare were eating grass outside of their paddock. Really good grass. They'd been eating for about 15-20 minutes. The owner took the lead mare back into the paddock and when they stepped away from the gate I asked for a head up and he came up mad, rubbing against me. Then he did it again when I wouldn't let him put his head back down...well, made it come back up. 

I just said "hey!" indignantly and "no" and pushed his head away. I think I'm most comfortable with pushing their heads away with my hand or forearm. Anybody see any problems with that? Would it make them headshy?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am another that gives a big No to head rubbing. However, I make sure that I take the time to itch out the head of the horse after a ride - behind the ears, around where the bridle has been, around the eyes. The horse deserves a reward, and if that is what they want, I am happy to scratch. However, I am not happy to let a huge animal think it's ok to rub up on me.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

xander said:


> Ok, thanks you guys. When the horse did it to me this afternoon it was because he was mad lol. We had been riding, everything went really well, and he and the lead mare were eating grass outside of their paddock. Really good grass. They'd been eating for about 15-20 minutes. The owner took the lead mare back into the paddock and when they stepped away from the gate I asked for a head up and he came up mad, rubbing against me. Then he did it again when I wouldn't let him put his head back down...well, made it come back up.
> 
> I just said "hey!" indignantly and "no" and pushed his head away. I think I'm most comfortable with pushing their heads away with my hand or forearm. Anybody see any problems with that? Would it make them headshy?


Well, being that he was obviously not just itching, you did the right thing haha. They only get head shy if you're poking and hitting with their heads for no good reason, so they can't understand why it's happening and only that if they get near people, it happens- what you did was discipline, because he was being rude to you.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I let my old 17.2hh do this because I thought it was cute. Then I ended up on my back in the sand. 

So no, I don't.

However, I don't let anyone go up to my horses and give them a scratch on their heads. Duffy is rewarded for good work with a scratches and itches all over her face, with a hand, a soft brush or rubber curry comb which she scratches on.

I try not to put an elbow in faces, even if its just to push away. I prefer pushing away on the neck or shoulders. But I follow that up with making the horse back off. A push or a shove is nothing to a horse. You have to say you're putting his legs where you want him to.


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## xander (Dec 9, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> I let my old 17.2hh do this because I thought it was cute. Then I ended up on my back in the sand.
> 
> So no, I don't.
> 
> ...


How do you do that? Without getting into a pushing match with them, etc?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

A rope halter, a long lead rope and pressure and release. When you put pressure on the headcollar, the horse moves back, left, right and gets the release as the reward.

Others will be able to explain it better than me, but it works. Takes time, but my horse now know back with a hand signal and a vocal 'back'. Look at some other threads in horse training


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## xander (Dec 9, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> A rope halter, a long lead rope and pressure and release. When you put pressure on the headcollar, the horse moves back, left, right and gets the release as the reward.
> 
> Others will be able to explain it better than me, but it works. Takes time, but my horse now know back with a hand signal and a vocal 'back'. Look at some other threads in horse training


 
ok, thanks


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

My son and I do NOT let our horses rub on us....our draft weighs 2,000lbs....and when she rubs on you, you cannot stand on your feet.:lol:


We do not physically push, smack or shove the head away ...we don't have to....ALL it takes to remind her we are not to be rubbed on is to back up two steps, two raised palms at her face level and a really ugly sound. we use a sound that sounds like a loud AAACCCCCKKKK. No physical contact.* Really, if your horse respects you, you shouldn't HAVE to make physical contact. JMO*

Beau is the same....if he tries to rub, two raised palms in his face (not on it) and an AAAACCCCCKKKKK....

After they back off, then WE rub/scratch them...trying to get the point across that WE rub them, not vice versa

Lately, they have learned to ASK for scratches/rubs by lowering their heads....


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Just wanted to add that my adult daughter DOES let the horses rub on her, despite us asking her not to because my son and I don't allow it and we would like it to be CONSISTENT...but she doesn't listen. 

I cannot count the number of times she's had Epona's huge draft horse head slammed into her chest or had the breath knocked out of her by that huge head....

It isn't a safe thing to allow this, IMO... even with a standard size horse. Their heads are big, hard, and the horses can rub or fling their heads about with more force than you realize. They do it gently, some may say....yea, today. But you cannot expect a horse to always rub gently .... or to somehow KNOW how hard is too hard.... if you believe this, you are fooling yourself and may likely find yourself with YOUR breath knocked out of you, or find yourself with a cracked rib or collar bone. It could happen at any time, regardless of how gently your horse USUALLY rubs, and you won't know what hit you until AFTER it DOES!!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> *...** Really, if your horse respects you, you shouldn't HAVE to make physical contact. JMO*...


Hmmm. I guess my mare is not respected by our geldings. She feels free to kick their butts, literally.

I've never had a horse show signs of taking offense from contact, provided they had a clue WHY we made contact.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

bsms said:


> Hmmm. I guess my mare is not respected by our geldings. She feels free to kick their butts, literally.
> 
> I've never had a horse show signs of taking offense from contact, provided they had a clue WHY we made contact.


I am not speaking of horse on horse interactions, but horse to human interactions. And MY OPINION is that if you have to physically smack, shove or punch your horse to move it out of YOUR space, you have more groundwork and respect building to do!!!!!

OFFENSE has nothing to do with, RESPECT has everything to do with it.

How can anyone see it differently? 

Your horse should respect your authority enough that a raised hand or an ugly sound is enough to remind them YOU are the alpha....

IF it takes physical contact and smacks to get your point across, then your horse needs some more respect lessons....

opinion mine


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

bsms said:


> I've never had a horse show signs of taking offense from contact, provided they had a clue WHY we made contact.


^^This, because sometimes you have to make contact to get that respect in the first place.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> I am not speaking of horse on horse interactions, but horse to human interactions...


Guess I'm just a 'natural horsemanship' kind of guy, trying to communicate with horses in the way they use themselves. :wink:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bsms said:


> Guess I'm just a 'natural horsemanship' kind of guy, trying to communicate with horses in the way they use themselves. :wink:



Or...you're on the same wave length :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

bsms said:


> Guess I'm just a 'natural horsemanship' kind of guy, trying to communicate with horses in the way they use themselves. :wink:


 
Then you would know that an established and respected alpha is NEVER rubbed on unless he/she ALLOWS it, and that the established and RESPECTED alpha only needs to make physical contact to remind a wayward herd member who exactly is boss. Those who KNOW he/she is the boss only need a flick of the head or pinned ears from the alpha to get the point across....


I would hope that we all want our horses to see us as the established alpha, whereas physical contact is not necessary....and if and when they forget then the reminder is sharp and clear.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Opinion mine


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

smrobs said:


> ^^This, because sometimes you have to make contact to get that respect in the first place.


 
In the first place being the key words there.

Afterwards, an established alpha doesn't need physical contact, just a flick of the head or pinned ears. Afterwards and established being the key words here.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> ...Afterwards, an established alpha doesn't need physical contact, just a flick of the head or pinned ears...


My mare disagrees. She retains the right at all times to decide if obedience was fast enough and satisfactory. After 3 years, she is well established as dominant, but she still gives reminders at times, with no sign of resentment from the others.

I don't watch Pat or Clint, but I do watch my horses...that's as natural as it gets.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm bad. I know it's not a good habit, but I allow one of my mares to rub on me (basically I hold my hand and she rubs her forehead against tips of my fingers). With that being said she knows the words "stop it", and stops when requested.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm worse. My mare sometimes asks me for 'butt-rubs'. She'll move her hip to my shoulder, then turn and look at me with a pleading look. I'll put my fist on top of her rump near the spine and rub as hard as I can between spine and hipbone. She closes her eyes and rocks back and forth until I stop.

But if I'm busy, I'll tell her no and she'll move off.

My wife jokes that I should offer her a cigarette afterward. :wink:

It usually means she needs some extra grooming where the skin is getting dry (think southern Arizona dry).


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Best way to handle a horse doing that very rude thing to you, poke them in the face, between the jowl & mouth area with your finger. Only have to do that once, maybe twice. They will never do it again.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

I'll say it again, if you need to smack your horse to get it to listen, you would gain a greater benefit by doing more groundwork instead.

Opinion mine.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Beauseant said:


> My son and I do NOT let our horses rub on us....our draft weighs 2,000lbs....and when she rubs on you, you cannot stand on your feet.:lol:
> 
> 
> We do not physically push, smack or shove the head away ...we don't have to....ALL it takes to remind her we are not to be rubbed on is to back up two steps, two raised palms at her face level and a really ugly sound. we use a sound that sounds like a loud AAACCCCCKKKK. No physical contact.* Really, if your horse respects you, you shouldn't HAVE to make physical contact. JMO*
> ...


... if i had a draft, i wouldn't let them rub either haha.

I agree. Physical retorts should be a last resort, and I mean last... I've seen bad things happen with this. The first and last training stable I went to had a trainer that would punch the horses in the face if they moved while tied up, right in front of my little sister and I. I was about 6 or 7 and it thoroughly sickened me. Plus she did it in front of my _sister_, who was a _baby_ at the time... only about 2 or 3, I think.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Yea, those draft heads are huge.... wonder how much their heads alone weigh....

I am completely serious. Our drafty girl is the most gentlest creature on earth....but one day she brought her head down right on my shoulder trying to rub, and I felt pain so intense I saw stars!! And once she threw her head against my son's chest trying to rub and her boney eye socket connected with his ribs hard enough to take his breath away. She could easily have cracked a rib..... So it's really no joking matter.....

that's why we decided, they do not rub on us. Period.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

look at the size of this head!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This head isn't much of a problem...but of course, Trooper has never tried to rub his head against anyone :? :


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## Heatherloveslottie (Apr 12, 2010)

I have a question for you guys.. back when I first started riding Lottie she had a habit of rubbing her head on you but only after a ride after you had dismounted. 

Because she still has her bridle on and as you can see, her head is pretty huge, I managed to stop it by just stepping away if she tried to push. But now we're at a stage where she will simply rest her head on my back, not forcefully, and as you can see she seems so relaxed. She doesn't try to rub at all and hardly puts any pressure on my back. Would you say this is ok or do I need to stop her head being close to my back?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I can't see the picture, but it may be because she's sweaty, or uncomfortable. Have you cleaned it, and clean it regularly? Is it a comfortable fit?

Don't step away, step towards. Don't let them make you move out of the way. 

I don't see a problem with it, its contact, not bad behaviour.


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## Heatherloveslottie (Apr 12, 2010)

Her bridle gets cleaned regularly and I've never noticed sweat on her head before, only under the girth and saddle pad. 

Thanks for your advice


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

xander said:


> Ok, thanks you guys. When the horse did it to me this afternoon it was because he was mad lol. We had been riding, everything went really well, and he and the lead mare were eating grass outside of their paddock. Really good grass. They'd been eating for about 15-20 minutes. The owner took the lead mare back into the paddock and when they stepped away from the gate I asked for a head up and he came up mad, rubbing against me. Then he did it again when I wouldn't let him put his head back down...well, made it come back up.
> 
> I just said "hey!" indignantly and "no" and pushed his head away. I think I'm most comfortable with pushing their heads away with my hand or forearm. Anybody see any problems with that? Would it make them headshy?


This is a temper tantrum, he's pushing you around wanting to do his own thing and continue to graze. I've been around a few that would do this if they wanted to go somewhere and I needed them to stay. One mare we got would bash us with her head in frustration. I stepped back tapped her on the rear with the lead and sent her in circles. When she got the point she stopped her feet, walked up with her head down ready to listen. Smacking, jabbing, waving things in their face is not ok. Especially when your dealing with a "tantrum" like above. This is NH, kinda. But *hitting* a horse IMHO is tacky. Yeah, I spanked my kid, and I'll wack a horse with a lead in the rear (smartly), and I also "send Eva off":lol: if she's being contrite, I'm not putting up with it. But I'd never hit or poke my kid or a horse in the head!
Pushing, shoving a head way isn't the best, I think backing them with the lead is more effective. Any sharp "hits" to the face often can make a horse headshy. There are better ways to go about it like said in other good posts here.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Hahaha, I'm sorry flygap, I can just imagine you poking kids in their heads xD


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! Back up Kid!!! / HA HA HA!!!


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## SarahAnn (Oct 22, 2011)

Beauseant said:


> Yea, those draft heads are huge.... wonder how much their heads alone weigh....
> 
> I am completely serious. Our drafty girl is the most gentlest creature on earth....but one day she brought her head down right on my shoulder trying to rub, and I felt pain so intense I saw stars!! And once she threw her head against my son's chest trying to rub and her boney eye socket connected with his ribs hard enough to take his breath away. She could easily have cracked a rib..... So it's really no joking matter.....
> 
> that's why we decided, they do not rub on us. Period.



I let Blaze do it... I probably shouldn't. None of my other horses have ever even tried to do it. Blaze has been my horse for MOST of my life, and MOST of her life. She's been through hell. She's foundered twice, and lost an eye in a cross tying accident... and spent too many years with a trainer that did more harm then good. (we finally canned her after the cross tying accident.) 

So I bend the rules a little for her. She also doesn't like to be touched. She will stand to be groomed and/or tacked up, but isn't a big fan of being loved on. It's just how she is. So occasionally when I ask her if she wants to rub her head on my back (when I invite her to do so, not on her own terms) I don't see an issue with it. 

my 2 year old Percheron? No. I don't think so.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

bsms said:


> My mare disagrees. She retains the right at all times to decide if obedience was fast enough and satisfactory. After 3 years, she is well established as dominant, but she still gives reminders at times, with no sign of resentment from the others.
> 
> I don't watch Pat or Clint, but I do watch my horses...that's as natural as it gets.


Pertaining to this entire argument, I figured I'd put my two-cents in, haha.
It all depends on the horse, IMO. Some horses (mares especially) constantly need reminders that they're not the boss, while some are more subtle and usually develop enough respect to only need that physical contact a couple times. But it really does depend on the horse... Like you said, some horses need reminders, doesn't matter if it's horse to horse or human to horse-- because the way they act around horses will be the way they act around people, i.e., how dominating, submissive, shy, outgoing, stubborn, easy going, all those personality traits.
For example, my stallion tried to bite me when he was 2. He hasn't tried since. He didn't like my elbow in his face... now, he knows that when I say QUIT, he **** well better stop what he's doing no matter what it is, and look at me- the same for my very sensitive gelding. It takes him one or two times, and practically no force is necessary- he listens _very_ well, so I can be very lenient.
On the flip side, my sister's gelding is constantly trying to shove his head all over everyone. Everyone else is too scared of his size (17 hh trakehner) and are too timid, but I have no reservations when it comes to making him understand that I am NOT a scratching post, and no scratches will be given unless I am the one initiating it. Because let's face it, he is WAY too big and powerful to even think about letting him over step boundaries. He has more respect for me than anyone else, because I'm the only one to discipline him, but is still very rude to me. I can smack him all I want and he barely acknowledges it, and keeps on slamming his head into my side, bridle or no bridle, etc. I usually only give a light smack, because I don't like to hit horses unless absolutely necessary, but it got to the point where I took his reins (He had his bridle on- BIG NO for rubbing) and wacked him right across the face, and he just stood there, didn't flinch, and literally two seconds later, he rubbed his head on me again, with a little less force, though, thankfully. 
Wow. If you've read all this crap I wrote, I commend you...


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

soenjer55 said:


> Pertaining to this entire argument, I figured I'd put my two-cents in, haha.
> It all depends on the horse, IMO. Some horses (mares especially) constantly need reminders that they're not the boss, while some are more subtle and usually develop enough respect to only need that physical contact a couple times. But it really does depend on the horse... Like you said, some horses need reminders, doesn't matter if it's horse to horse or human to horse-- because the way they act around horses will be the way they act around people, i.e., how dominating, submissive, shy, outgoing, stubborn, easy going, all those personality traits.
> For example, my stallion tried to bite me when he was 2. He hasn't tried since. He didn't like my elbow in his face... now, he knows that when I say QUIT, he **** well better stop what he's doing no matter what it is, and look at me- the same for my very sensitive gelding. It takes him one or two times, and practically no force is necessary- he listens _very_ well, so I can be very lenient.
> *On the flip side, my sister's gelding is constantly trying to shove his head all over everyone. Everyone else is too scared of his size (17 hh trakehner) and are too timid, but I have no reservations when it comes to making him understand that I am NOT a scratching post, and no scratches will be given unless I am the one initiating it. Because let's face it, he is WAY too big and powerful to even think about letting him over step boundaries. He has more respect for me than anyone else, because I'm the only one to discipline him, but is still very rude to me. I can smack him all I want and he barely acknowledges it, and keeps on slamming his head into my side, bridle or no bridle, etc. I usually only give a light smack, because I don't like to hit horses unless absolutely necessary, but it got to the point where I took his reins (He had his bridle on- BIG NO for rubbing) and wacked him right across the face, and he just stood there, didn't flinch, and literally two seconds later, he rubbed his head on me again, with a little less force, though, thankfully.
> Wow. If you've read all this crap I wrote, I commend you...*




Firstly, it doesn't matter how unfliching a horse is... you shouldn't ever whack it round the head. Not only is it a prelude to headshy-ness, there are some delicate bones in there.

Secondly, I would never ever let a horse rub on me, you reprimanded him, and he still did it. You weren't strong enough, and next time, he could do it again. Like you said 17hh is a BIG horse, get your sister to put him in his place....


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

You NEVER hit, slap, poke, jab, shove, or elbow a horse in the head. That really irritates me, and will damage or cause it to be headshy!
You need to send them away, move their feet, etc. 
One of my worst horse memories was when a man PUNCHED a horse in the head when it was frightened and being difficult. It was SICKENING and I watched her stumble to the ground. We were trailriding in a group, I was only 7 and I literally wanted to attack the man!
There are far better ways to discipline a horse. Watch a dominant mare put a horse in it's place, she sends the horse away, kicks or bites at it's rear or shoulder. I've yet to see one attack a head, the purpose is to discipline not injure or frighten.
You can do this with a crop, line, or whip not to the head, to the body, with the right move and gently to get your point across.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xiamsvetlanax (Aug 8, 2011)

[IMG said:


> http://i39.tinypic.com/xqmcls.jpg[/IMG]


Aww I want that^^^^ some day
(my name's Heather too) 

What would you guys say.. about a 19-20 year old horse who's been pulled on by TONS of little kids, who when someone like me, a novice-intermediate rider gets on her..tells her to (she has a tendency to follow the butts of the other school horses), move to the inside, to pass the other horse, she does nothing but PULLS real hard forward, even if I'm using half-halt and leg? Should I JUST use more leg, and less pull? I just, I feel bad when I pull on her, and she yanks forward like "COME ONNNN". 

(she also.. when I rode her for the first time in 4 months, I was standing right in front of her, and had the reins in my hand, and she wicked nudged me. not sure if "HIII!!!" or.. "go away :twisted:..")

*sorry for ramble*:lol::lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FlyGap said:


> .. I've yet to see one attack a head, the purpose is to discipline not injure or frighten...


Maybe my mare is psychotic. The only reason she hasn't bitten another horse on the head is that the other horse moved fast enough to avoid it. And yes, I've seen horses hurt and frighten another horse. Often.

The side of my arm blocking a horse's cheek is not going to hurt the horse. It may hurt me, but not the horse.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, my sister's only 12. I don't know why she has a horse that she's afraid of, she shouldn't, but she does. And there's nothing I can do about it, unfortunately...

And trust me, I've done nothing that could hurt him, he's not even close to head shy. I said I _could_ hit him all I wanted. Not that I did... The worst was using the reins, and let me tell you that it was NOT harmful, and it was enough to make him back off, which he then got a rub on the head which he was perfectly happy to receive. (Too happy, in fact, because the next thing I knew he was trying to slam his head into me again for a scratch...).
I'm probably at fault for using the term smack, but it's not a _hit_. I apologize for not being clear enough, but I believe you've misunderstood.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Firstly, it doesn't matter how unfliching a horse is... you shouldn't ever whack it round the head. Not only is it a prelude to headshy-ness, there are some delicate bones in there.
> 
> Secondly, I would never ever let a horse rub on me, you reprimanded him, and he still did it. You weren't strong enough, and next time, he could do it again. Like you said 17hh is a BIG horse, get your sister to put him in his place....


Also, I'm wondering, you said that I wasn't strong enough, but if I was stronger it would hurt him. Can you please give me some advise on fixing this? He's a 12 year old's horse, and needs to learn...


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

soenjer55 said:


> Also, I'm wondering, you said that I wasn't strong enough, but if I was stronger it would hurt him. Can you please give me some advise on fixing this? He's a 12 year old's horse, and needs to learn...



Stronger in the right places... honestly though, especially if you're round your sister and she's sees you whacking his face she may start doing it too... not a good idea as has been mentioned above.

Do you do ground work with him? You might want to start with things like teaching him to back up. A rope halter is a good idea for this, you don't need an all singing all dancing one, just a $10 one, stick it on and the idea is pressure when he doesn't do what is asked and then as soon as he does it, release so he knows the difference. Walking back, stand in front of him, may be worth having a small crop in your hand, and ask him to walk back vocally, if he doesn't, you want to almost use the leadrope to bring his nose in, your hand directed at his chest area and an impulsion, he's too big and strong to keep the pressure constant, saying back, if he doesn't listen to that, tap his front legs with your whip. AS SOON as he moves back, release the pressure and try and get him to move back from your body language sending him back- if he stops, more pressure.

Once you get the hang of it, when he tries to rub you, you an send him back with any headcollar on and vocal commands. Also, if he is really bad and won't listen I am not in any means adverse to using the end of a leadrop on his chest/shoulders/side... you and your sister have to be the lead mares.... especially your sister. Have a look at some of the other threads in the Horse training forum, it'll give you a good idea.

Apologies that I didn't explain myself very well to start off with!!!

Good luck


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Sheesh, I was talking about normal herd discipline, not attack mode I want you dead or as far away as possible. Including I'm gonna send you through the fence, break your legs, AND IF I CAN RIP OFF YOUR FACE...
We train our horses to trust us with their heads, and know that we are also in charge. Not by using brute force, but definitely with pressure. I dig ya BSMS, just clarifying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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