# Unsteady Lower Leg and how to fix it



## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

I'm at my wits with my lower leg swinging! I'm hoping ya'll can help me. It's ok in the walk and If I work really hard I can keep it ok at the canter. The trot though is a different story. When I post my feet flop around forward and backward, I just can't seem to keep them still! I tried gripping with my knee but realized that I was pinching my horse so I stopped. I've tried gripping with my entire leg but that just makes me stiff and topple forward or backwards. I've tried riding without stirrups and my leg just slips down off his side like it was greased. I feel like I'm good at moving with the horse and I've been working on my core strength and looking up. I will soon attach some vids so you can see what's going on! Thanks in advance


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Gripping with your knees will definitely make it worse, not better!

If your lower leg is swing around when you post, something is likely out of balance. Are you able to post with a completely loose rein, and without grabbing mane?

Swinging lower leg usually happens because of pinching with the knees, and/or your upper body losing balance forward or back, and your lower leg swinging to compensate for it.

Can you have a friend film you so you can see what your whole body is doing?

I also want to add, your lower leg isn't going to be totally still while you post even if you're doing it correctly. When you rise, some of your weight will drop into your heel. Now, that shouldn't result in your lower leg swinging forward or back, but it does mean there is downward motion into the ankle. That's okay! You want that! It means your ankle is supple and absorbing the motion correctly.


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Yes I can post on a loose rein, it's the same thing. I never thought about the upper body swinging forward and back, and the legs compensating for that. I'll look into that! Do you by chance have any remedies or exercises for fixing this? Thanks for the reply!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Sure thing! Work on standing in your stirrups like this, at walk first and then move up to doing it at trot.






This will help you find your proper lower leg placement and alignment. If you're out of balance, you will tip. If you grip with your knees, you will tip. It's a great strengthening exercise as well.

You'll definitely want to grab mane at first so you don't accidentally catch your horse in the mouth. With practice you'll be able to do this with no mane and on a loose rein, with only your balance, and your body's ability to carry itself, keeping you stable and steady.


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

It's not letting me post the little clip I had directly onto here so here's some links to some vids I made a bit ago that hopefully you can get an idea from! Thanks!


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you so much! I'll give this a try! I posted a video if you'd like to see what I'm working with but thanks for the tips!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Your leg actually doesn't move all that much!

I think part of what's happening has to do with the style of saddle you're in, the stirrup length, and the placement of the stirrup bar.

Your saddle has a very forward flap, stirrup bar, and balance point. What I think is happening to you when you post is... that ankle flexion I mentioned? When your ankle drops on the rising portion of the post, it's fighting against the alignment of where the stirrup leather is hanging down. Which makes your lower leg move more than it would if the stirrup bar were further back under you. So to some degree, you're fighting against your own equipment. The short stirrups and deep heels that are desirable for showing in the hunter ring can further fight against proper vertical alignment by trying to force your body into a chair seat.

This isn't me, an internet stranger, jumping in to say "replace your saddle" or anything like that. But certain aspects of current hunter show expectations make totally correct equitation on the flat a lot more challenging.


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you! Wow do I have alot to research and read on tonight... Obviously buying a brand new saddle isn't an option, can anything be done to stop fighting the tack? Such as how should I ride in this type of saddle? Sorry for all the questions, I want to get this right!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

The same exercises will help you. It's a matter of getting the strength and the muscle memory for your lower leg to seek the right place and want to stay there.

When you say your leg slides when you do no stirrups work, where does it slide to?


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you, and it slides down. I'll have my legs where I would normally in the stirrups and and when I squeeze with my lower legs to go push up into a post, I get a tiny bit of push upward but they slip down. I'm thinking this is just a strength issue?


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

You know, there are a lot of coaches who will tell you to ride without stirrups in the same position that you ride with them. But that doesn't work. The mechanics of it are different and if you try to do it in the same position you tense up and grip and won't see the same benefits. Instead...

Let your legs hang. Let them be long. Don't try to hold them the way you would with stirrups. Let them drop nice and long from your hips. Don't worry about you heels being down. Let them be neutral. Your support when riding without your stirrups isn't going to come from your lower leg. It's also not going to come from squeezing with your knees or inner thigh. It actually comes from your core, and from the muscles that connect the front of your hips to your pubic bone, and then your seat itself is supported by the muscles in the backs of your thighs. Those are all the groups of muscles that are going to stabilize you without you having to squeeze or grip.

To rise trot without stirrups, use those muscles -- especially the backs of the thighs -- and only try to rise as much as the horse bounces you up. You don't need air between yourself and the seat of the saddle to get the exercise benefit of it.


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Wow! Thank you for all your help!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

As a hunter (which you appear to be riding), you do want the leg to stay as if it was in the stirrup(within reason). Go watch videos of the big eq riders, you can hardly tell until you look close. 
Part of that is strength. Part is technique. 

From you comments about posting without stirrups and the video, it seems you are posting wrong. You are posting up, pushing off your stirrups. Hence why you can't do it without stirrups. The posting trot isn't an up and down motion. It's a forward and back. 
Beyond basic balance, posting requires zero effort from the rider. The horses motion brings you forward, then you lightly sit, then the horse brings you forward, and repeat. It's a motion through the hips, hinging from the knee.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

ApuetsoT said:


> As a hunter (which you appear to be riding), you do want the leg to stay as if it was in the stirrup(within reason). Go watch videos of the big eq riders, you can hardly tell until you look close.
> Part of that is strength. Part is technique.


True! I was thinking of it more as a general balance/hip opener exercise than what they'd want to see in the show ring. I think working on it both ways would be useful.


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

I've heard that it's not an up-down motion, I suppose I just thought I wasn't doing that! Thank you for pointing that out! So how should I be posting?


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

I see that you are pointing toes out and pushing too much on the stirrups. As mentioned, it seems to be the saddle bar being against you as well, but it is doable. 
Half seat will help secure the lower leg, but also not pushing the heels down, but letting your leg rest. You should move your knee a bit more down, which will open your hip and push the lower leg a bit more back. Also, think about feet being parallel to the horse, toes should not point outward. 
Also, you should never have to push to post the trot - the horse swings you up and you just move with the horse.. otherwise if you do too much yourself, you are riding against the horse. 

Loads of two point, sitting trot and posting trot exercises will help - also trying posting trot without stirrups, but that means you need to be on the lunge line at first. 
One thing that helps is doing sitting trot on the short side, two point on the long side, post a little, do sitting the long side, two point the short side. and repeat. 

Hope you understand what I mean.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

I recently showed at a hunter show and the judge mentioned the same thing to me that you're describing. She said "you see how you can see your toes when you post? You shouldn't be able to." She emphasized the lower leg to all of the riders. She also said I would need to replace my saddle as I was fighting against it. (It was a schooling show, by the way.) Since then, I've been struggling to keep my leg where it's supposed to be. I am using a different saddle, though. I figure that like ANY physical exercise, it's going to take time to develop the muscles correctly. 

One thing that helps me is wearing the right clothes - something that will help grip the saddle instead of sliding around. I usually school in fake suede half chaps. Also, mentally, picturing my hips rise forward and backwards instead of up and down has helped. But I still get fatigued very easily. 

Following for more ideas and input!


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you! Yes, pointing my toes out is something I've been working on. And I think I do understand what you're saying. Real quick though, what do you mean when you say I should drop my knee? Like lengthening my stirrups?


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> As a hunter (which you appear to be riding), you do want the leg to stay as if it was in the stirrup(within reason). Go watch videos of the big eq riders, you can hardly tell until you look close.
> Part of that is strength. Part is technique.
> 
> From you comments about posting without stirrups and the video, it seems you are posting wrong. You are posting up, pushing off your stirrups. Hence why you can't do it without stirrups. The posting trot isn't an up and down motion. It's a forward and back.
> Beyond basic balance, posting requires zero effort from the rider. The horses motion brings you forward, then you lightly sit, then the horse brings you forward, and repeat. It's a motion through the hips, hinging from the knee.


Posting does require a little bit of effort, but a lot less when done correctly. Also depends on the horses movement, but the whole leg should support you when you post moving hips forwards, and sit back, hips forward, sit back..


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

FutureHorseTrainer13 said:


> Thank you! Yes, pointing my toes out is something I've been working on. And I think I do understand what you're saying. Real quick though, what do you mean when you say I should drop my knee? Like lengthening my stirrups?


You might need longer stirrups. Check them against your arm - put the tips of your fingers on the stirrup bar, where your stirrup begins. Straight arm and the stirrup should reach the armpit. That is usually a good length, can vary sometimes a hole up or down. Also, depends on the saddle - dressage or jumping, or all purpose. I said lower the knee - turn the knee towards the ground a little - won't work with tight hips, but slowly it can be done - it has taken me years to get that.. and when the hips open you will see how much easier it is to sit on a horse


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Oh, right! Thank you!


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

*Future,*
I admit to not watching the entire video, but toes out is a hallmark for rotating your legs out from the hip. Do not simply concentrate on turning your foot at your ankle, as that will create unwanted tension in your calves. The correction in position needs to happen from the hip, and, sorry to say, the best way to correct this misalignment is by doing work with no stirrups. You say that your legs swing more when working with no stirrups, which may be due to a combination of lack of adductor muscle strength and tension in the hips. 

Good new is that this is common and can be corrected:

1) stretch regularly (including hips/pelvis)
2) simple stirrupless work can be done even at the walk to strengthen the adductors, either during warm-up and/or cool down; try posting with no stirrups at the walk

Sorry for the abrupt tone... I am rushing.

P.S. This: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/how-stop-toes-ponting-out-788209/


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Don't be sorry, you gotta do what you gotta do right? Anyway, thanks everyone for all your advice and suggestions. A little update, I rode today and tried some of them out, and already I felt a little steadier. A step in the right direction I suppose. Anyway, thanks again!


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

Cherrij said:


> You might need longer stirrups. Check them against your arm - put the tips of your fingers on the stirrup bar, where your stirrup begins. Straight arm and the stirrup should reach the armpit. That is usually a good length, can vary sometimes a hole up or down. Also, depends on the saddle - dressage or jumping, or all purpose. I said lower the knee - turn the knee towards the ground a little - won't work with tight hips, but slowly it can be done - it has taken me years to get that.. and when the hips open you will see how much easier it is to sit on a horse


I used to do this and my instructor made me do a warm up on the horse, if you can then hold your ankle and slowly pull your foot up to your butt, while staying in the correct position, you should feel a stretch in your thigh, then begin to point your knee down as far as possible. once you've done that a few times your supposed to be able to really feel the muscles you need to use so when you put your foot back in the stirrup you can maintain the right position and the right amount of tension... this is just theory as I only did it the once and couldn't even do it properly due to an injury but I hope it helps in some way xD


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

UnhappyHacker said:


> I used to do this and my instructor made me do a warm up on the horse, if you can then hold your ankle and slowly pull your foot up to your butt, while staying in the correct position, you should feel a stretch in your thigh, then begin to point your knee down as far as possible. once you've done that a few times your supposed to be able to really feel the muscles you need to use so when you put your foot back in the stirrup you can maintain the right position and the right amount of tension... this is just theory as I only did it the once and couldn't even do it properly due to an injury but I hope it helps in some way xD


Yes, forgot to write about this.. I used to do it a bit too - sit in the saddle and before starting to ride, raise your foot up, grab the ankle with your hand and pull it closer to your bum - helps the knee go down, hip to open and then lower the foot where it should be. repeat on the other side.


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## Janet Cherry (Jul 13, 2009)

Have you read Sally Swift, Centred Riding? She has great visualisation exercises that might help. One is that you think of your legs like melting icecream, with the melted icecream dripping down to the ground...the other is that you think of your legs as growing longer and being able to wriggle your toes in the mud on the ground....spread your toes inside your boot. All to stop your lower leg tensing up, swinging, gripping, constantly nudging the horse's sides etc....


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

I really have a problem with this non-moving equitation. You are supposed to move with the horse, any tension and gripping trying to hold yourself in a position is bad. You are supposed to be an effective rider and not one that looks "pretty". The way your lower leg moves on the video is completely normal.

Why the horse should do go forward if the rider does not move forward with him? A well trained green horse will eventually stop if a rider tenses. That's what stopping means - stopping of motion. The time between the stop and forward movement is called half halt.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Open hip. Stand your toes pointing forward and without any tension move them to the sides a bit like you would be skiing uphill 










Your seat should drop and hip open. Difficult to find a good photo, but you get the idea.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherrij said:


> Yes, forgot to write about this.. I used to do it a bit too - sit in the saddle and before starting to ride, raise your foot up, grab the ankle with your hand and pull it closer to your bum - helps the knee go down, hip to open and then lower the foot where it should be. repeat on the other side.



I wonder if I can even physically do this anymore . . . . 

ONe thing that helps me if I find that I am 'gripping up' ,which I notice when I feel a tug on my breaches, and I start to notice that my base of support on the stirrup is not there (I stop feeling it) . . .is to turn my HEEL out away from the horse so much that my calf rotate well OFF the hrose. Now, with not contact to reduce it's ability to slide, I push down more into the stirrup, through the OUTSIDE of my whole leg, down the outside of the knee(you should feel it go down that tendone that is on the outer edge of your knee), along the outside edge of the calf and through the knobble of your ankle. Your leg will literally drop and lengthen, then you let it just relax back against the horse's side. 

Voila! instant longer, straighter, more evenly applied leg, no gripping up!


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> I wonder if I can even physically do this anymore . . . .
> 
> ONe thing that helps me if I find that I am 'gripping up' ,which I notice when I feel a tug on my breaches, and I start to notice that my base of support on the stirrup is not there (I stop feeling it) . . .is to turn my HEEL out away from the horse so much that my calf rotate well OFF the hrose. Now, with not contact to reduce it's ability to slide, I push down more into the stirrup, through the OUTSIDE of my whole leg, down the outside of the knee(you should feel it go down that tendone that is on the outer edge of your knee), along the outside edge of the calf and through the knobble of your ankle. Your leg will literally drop and lengthen, then you let it just relax back against the horse's side.
> 
> Voila! instant longer, straighter, more evenly applied leg, no gripping up!


Basically, it all takes a lot of work, practice and patience. Muscles and tendons don't stretch in a day. 

I was off riding for 2 months, but managed to trot and canter on the first try back. I don't really know how. I was off riding due to a foot injury. I still can't use my foot too much for pushing in the stirrups - one day I had a very stressful trail ride and it made my foot hurt again, because I was pushing in the stirrups for balance again.. All the time ready to react.. (Crazy horse and icy trails). After the trauma I lost quite a bit of muscles.. Now every ride I take I am a bit sore, because muscles and tendons have shrunk again and I need to stretch them back out. It is easier for me, as they know how they have been, I just need to get them back into shape.. But I can still ride in a saddle with stirrups, without loosing stirrups, but not putting much weight in them... 

It is harder for adults learning to ride, easier for kids - kids are stretchier and actually tend to sit more correctly under good guidance. Adults are stiffer and more used to chair seat, because most adults do a desk job.. And forget about fitness. I admit, I have no time or patience for the gym or pilates and so on, but I do do core exercises and I live an active lifestyle which keeps me in shape for riding.. 

Back to the OP - Patience and a lot of work. Sometimes if someone can pull your leg down straight when you sit in the saddle can also help with lengthening and putting it in the right place


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

FutureHorseTrainer13 said:


> I'm at my wits with my lower leg swinging! I'm hoping ya'll can help me. It's ok in the walk and If I work really hard I can keep it ok at the canter. The trot though is a different story. When I post my feet flop around forward and backward, I just can't seem to keep them still! I tried gripping with my knee but realized that I was pinching my horse so I stopped. I've tried gripping with my entire leg but that just makes me stiff and topple forward or backwards. I've tried riding without stirrups and my leg just slips down off his side like it was greased. I feel like I'm good at moving with the horse and I've been working on my core strength and looking up. I will soon attach some vids so you can see what's going on! Thanks in advance


LOTS of riding without stirrups. You will have to ride with your seat, which will improve your riding, build and help you learn how to use your muscles better to be able to separate all the different sections of your body to have a solid lower leg. Not fun work if you have never done it, but its going to completely change and quickly improve your seat and fix that issue you're having.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not a big fan of riding without stirrups if the goal is simply to strengthen the legs, I find a lot of riders develop poor habits that way like gripping with the thigh and tension through the hips. I think basic yoga is actually really good for developing body awareness and control. It's not about sticking a body part here or there to appear a certain way but finding your own balance and awareness of your own body. 

Planks, side planks, leg lifts and holds, squats are also helpful but a lot of core and lower leg stability can be developed from the ground. Dance is also very helpful. It's about body control and awareness, not stillness. 


I also agree with Firmargue about "non moving" equitation. The idea isn't that you don't move. I've seen many-many riders in the dressage ring who were stiff and you wouldn't see them move in the saddle but they entirely hollow out the horses back and have a stiff, inflexible horse. They make poor movers move poorer. The hips need to be flexible and "move" but remain independent of the horse but generally when teaching riders I insist they move and than as they progress refinement and teaching them how to prevent themselves from their movement being taken over by the horse's movement and controlling the horse's movement through the control of your core and hip. It's all interconnected. Too much movement in the upper body will result in a swinging lower level which often stems from weak core strength and a weak upper body.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I'm not a big fan of riding without stirrups if the goal is simply to strengthen the legs, I find a lot of riders develop poor habits that way like gripping with the thigh and tension through the hips. I think basic yoga is actually really good for developing body awareness and control. It's not about sticking a body part here or there to appear a certain way but finding your own balance and awareness of your own body.


 You should tell high level trainers and riders that then. They would have a lot of things to say about the view you have. If you actually do a simple google search as to the benefits of doing no stirrup work, is to assist you with your seat and separating those different muscles. With a great seat, you can focus on your lower leg and other body parts you need to improve on. Great article below. 

George Morris is a legendary rider, horseman, author and teacher, not to mention the chef d’equipe for the U.S. show jumping team since 2004. He has always preached the importance of riding without stirrups, and he was happy to take a few moments to underscore the importance of everyone’s least favorite training experience.

Q: What are the benefits to riding without stirrups?

A: The primary benefit is to develop your seat. Also, it improves what I call the ability to “stick” to a horse. In the classical riding schools of Europe, riders were required to ride without stirrups for the first three years they were there. 

Q: At what level should a rider begin practicing without stirrups?

A: In an ideal world, beginner riders should be started on a calm horse on the longe line without stirrups right from the start. These exercises benefit riders of all levels. In Germany, following the same concept of teaching a rider about seat, balance and independence, most children are started with vaulting as a complement to their riding careers. But riders of all ages and levels can start now to make riding without stirrups a habit and thereby improve their riding. 

Q: How should a rider go about beginning work without stirrups?

A: Starting out at the walk on the longe line is a great way to get started, and at first go for just five or 10 minutes. You can hook the fingers of one hand under the front of the saddle for more security. This also helps to move your seat forward to encourage better position and a deeper seat. Or, depending on ability, more advanced riders can walk-trot-canter with just one hand on the reins. Make sure you sit evenly in the saddle (not more to one side or the other).

Q: What types of exercises should be done without stirrups?

A: Here are a number of exercises I encourage riders to practice:

With reins bridged in one hand, circle free arm forward, upward and backward;
Again with reins in one hand, reach forward to touch horse’s ears, then down to touch rider’s toes (on each side), and back towards top of horse’s tail;
Repeatedly lift and hold both legs away from the horse’s sides for a second, like a “pair of scissors”;
Place legs forward over the front of each side of the saddle;
Rotate feet in small circles;
Rotate head in small circles (Caution: watch for lightheadedness);
For more advanced riders, any other dressage movements, such as lateral movements, transitions, lengthenings, small circles (volte), counter canter and flying changes can all be schooled without stirrups.
Q: Do you encourage jumping without stirrups?

A: Absolutely! All serious riders should also be able to jump without stirrups. In fact, I can remember jumping 6-foot fences, bareback, in Falsterbo (Sweden). In “the old days,” riders in the cavalry even rode cross-country courses without stirrups. But for most riders, the jumps don’t have to be big to achieve results. Stick to this three-step progression, and don’t push too fast:

1) Start by longeing without stirrups on a dependable, safe mount;
2) Become confident with flatwork without stirrups;
3) Begin jumping small single fences without stirrups, then add in some gymnastic exercises.

Q: Are there any exercises that should not be attempted without stirrups?

A: There isn’t anything in particular, so riders can be creative. But at the same time, don’t be a hero and take unnecessary risks.

Q: How often should someone ride without stirrups?

A: I ride without stirrups once a week, and that’s what I recommend for riders of all levels. Start with 15 or 20 minutes at a time and build up. I ride for a full session of at least 45 minutes once a week.

Q: How do you manage if your horse is not a willing partner?

A: Some horses get nervous when riders start working without stirrups. But it’s still good for both horse and rider. If there’s tension, it’s due to either the rider or horse (or both) getting nervous because they don’t school without stirrups enough. Don’t freak out—ride through it. Repetition is key! Everyone should be riding this way once or twice a week, even grand prix riders.

Q: Do you have your U.S. show jumping team riders school without stirrups?

A: I wear a different hat when serving as chef d’equipe than I do as a trainer and clinician. The top riders are already familiar with my philosophy, and they’re prepared. As chef d’equipe, I’m not a babysitter, and I don’t have to re-tell them what to do—like riding without stirrups—to be able to ride their best.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

my2geldings said:


> You should tell high level trainers and riders that then. They would have a lot of things to say about the view you have. If you actually do a simple google search as to the benefits of doing no stirrup work, is to assist you with your seat and separating those different muscles. With a great seat, you can focus on your lower leg and other body parts you need to improve on. Great article below.
> 
> George Morris is a legendary rider, horseman, author and teacher, not to mention the chef d’equipe for the U.S. show jumping team since 2004. He has always preached the importance of riding without stirrups, and he was happy to take a few moments to underscore the importance of everyone’s least favorite training experience.
> 
> ...


I think you took what I wrote out of context, I never said no stirrup work has no value or isn't a good exercise. if you read I wrote for simply strengthening the leg I don't think no stirrup work is the solution. In this situation for the development of a rider with a swinging leg, I am not a huge fan of no stirrup work because I find most riders without an independent seat end up getting very tense in the hip and thigh and also tend to rely on the horse's mouth for balance. I think it is best to focus on mind-body awareness first and develop the core strength and center of balance off the horse before taking away stirrups because if the rider doesn't have a balanced seat they tend to become tense in the hip, thigh and balance on the mouth. 

That said I've ridden bareback a lot, gone on hacks, jumped bareback, galloped, etc. But my balance is from my core. I also come from a dressage background and yes I have trained in Europe, Ive trained with olympic and international riders/trainers, I have ridden GP horses. So my opinion comes from high level trainers and riders but my opinion is my opinion, I'd hardly call it fact as with horses most is opinion.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I watched the video. A few things popped out. Your horse is barely trotting and is above the bit which makes for not so great rhythm to post to in the first place. Maybe getting him a bit more connected would help your cause. You don't have that much lower leg movement. I've seen much worst. Instead of pinching with your knee which leaves everything south of that free to flop around, think about putting your entire lower leg on. Everything from just below your knee to the top of your ankle bone should be touching the horse. Imagine that long bone in your lower leg bends and you can wrap it around your horse's belly. Try slow motion posting at the walk making sure your leg stays absolutely still. You will most likely find you're using some different muscles to keep the legs still. Once you can do it at the walk, resume posting at the trot.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you are balanced above your stirrups, your stirrups won't swing. They won't need to, because your center of gravity stays put - and then your leg won't need to compensate.

Instead of no stirrup work, I suggest two-point, or "standing in your stirrups". Do so while changing directions, accelerating, slowing, turns of all sizes.

Also, concentrate on "balance in motion" rather than position. Position can be thought of as a general guide, but how it works on a moving horse varies with the horse, rider, and tack. The US Cavalry recommended toes be OUT. How much? 10-45 degrees, depending on the build of the rider and the horse's movement. George Morris used to follow that recommendation, saying 10-45 degrees out was fine. VS Littauer recommended 30 degrees out.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I've noticed this: If I want even pressure on the ball of my foot in the stirrup, my toes MUST go out. Using slanted stirrups results in my feet immediately shifting about 20 degrees forward compared to unslanted stirrups. Why? Because my feet slant when my toes go forward, and toes forward will create even pressure on the balls of my feet IF the stirrups are slanted.

Like many people, I find even pressure on my feet more comfortable.

2 other points. An average rider, or someone like me who rides 2-5 times a WEEK, should not try to imitate someone who rides 8 hours a day, or who has the physical abilities to ride at the top of the sport. Someone who starts at 50, as I did, cannot and will not have a body that allows him to imitate a top athlete in ANY sport. 

As Littauer put it: 


> In 1931 my second book, JUMPING THE HORSE, was published; and among the reviews there was one uncomplimentary one which appeared in Polo. In part it read: ". . . in brief, it presents this thesis; don't try to play tennis the way Tilden does it, because you cannot; don't pay any attention to Bobby Jones because you couldn't possibly hit a ball the way he does. Or, to come right down to it, don't bother to try to go over obstacles the way Major Harry Chamberlin does, because you never will be able to anyway; just leave the reins loose enough so that the horse will do the work, without interference from you.
> 
> There was the answer to my problem. *Less than one per cent of my * *pupils may have the riding genius of Major Harry Chamberlin*, and very few of them will ever devote as many hours a day, and as many years of such days to riding and thinking about riding as he did; a few of them may be professionals but the majority will be bankers and lawyers and business men, and their wives and daughters who, in their turn, will marry doctors and lawyers. *Of course it is foolish to try to teach them to ride the way men who devote their lives to riding do*. For most of my pupils riding is merely a relaxation and I just have to make them ride efficiently and without abusing their horses on the trails, in the hunting field, in the horse shows etc. *What was said in JUMPING THE HORSE was perhaps too simple for Polo, but was too complicated for hundreds of my pupils, young and old, fat and lean, brave and frightened.* This is how my work lost its abstract aspects and acquired the tendency to adjust sound riding ideas to contemporary life.


Second, quoting Littauer again:


> At first when learning how to ride you must think about your position all the time, and in this period of your learning your picture matters a great deal. But later, when the contour of your position is correct when your spring, grip, balance, etc. are working effectively *then there are only two criteria of your position; a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?*


If your lower leg goes all over the place like it has a mind of its own, you are not in fluid balance with your horse. That is in part because your body is not balanced over the stirrups and in part because your body's balance is shifting around. Riding while standing in the stirrups will help you feel your horse's motion. It will require you to stay over your stirrups. And unlike riding stirrupless, it will NOT encourage you to grip with your knee. Neither will riding stirrupless - IF you are a very confident rider, or if your horse is utterly reliable. I'm neither, so riding without stirrups was creating bad habits in me.

It is of no use to tell normal people with limited riding opportunities how extraordinary athletes riding long hours every day do it. They are them. And MY 60 year old, chubby, stiff body is not theirs...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SteadyOn said:


> Your leg actually doesn't move all that much!
> 
> I think part of what's happening has to do with the style of saddle you're in, the stirrup length, and the placement of the stirrup bar.
> 
> ...



I watched your video, and found that this response, by @SteadyOn , is just about what I would say, too.

I wondered if the saddle wasn't a bit high in front, (effectively , the same sort of forward balance point issue Steady on is talking about ). I wondered if it's is perhaps a bit too narrow, or, if it's just that your horse has high withers that make the saddle sit high in front. This ends up making the rider always be a bit behind the motion becuase it's hard for them to get their leg back and under themselves.

Could you post some photos of your horse, saddled, on level ground?

Also, if this has not already been mentioned, you may benefit from some dressage lessons. I think if you have a better feel with how to 'put your horse together' via a better connection to the bit, the horse will actually give you a better trot to post from, and you'll become better able to set them up toward a jump with good alignment. 

When you are turning, I see the outside rein just 'flapping', and so, it seems you are riding a bit like a disconnected passenger. I think your horse will offer you more if you have him a bit bent into the outside rein, asking him to track up a bit more . Theses are all things you might find are taught in basic dressage lessons, and are often very helpful to hunter equitation ( sometimes they are taught in Hunter, sometimes not. depends on the teacher).


I do apologize if I have posted things already thoroughly discussed. I did not read the entire thread before adding my 2 cents.

also, what breed is this horse?


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## FutureHorseTrainer13 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your advice! I don't have enough time to go back and respond to all the advice so i'll just address some stuff here. 
This horse is a Tennessee Walker, and about I TOTALLY agree about him not trotting very nicely! His gaits have improved a lot since then and we've been working to soften his mouth up and lift his back. I've found that when he does give me more power I feel that I ride better. Regarding lessons in dressage, I had already had a lesson scheduled for tonight with a gal who does dressage. We'll see what she says but I'm sure she can help us either way!
For saddle fit, I don't have any photos of him saddled but attached is him on the ground.
Sorry is the photo is upside down, (I have no idea why!) but that's the best photo of him on the ground I have.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think you took what I wrote out of context, I never said no stirrup work has no value or isn't a good exercise. if you read I wrote for simply strengthening the leg I don't think no stirrup work is the solution. In this situation for the development of a rider with a swinging leg, I am not a huge fan of no stirrup work because I find most riders without an independent seat end up getting very tense in the hip and thigh and also tend to rely on the horse's mouth for balance. I think it is best to focus on mind-body awareness first and develop the core strength and center of balance off the horse before taking away stirrups because if the rider doesn't have a balanced seat they tend to become tense in the hip, thigh and balance on the mouth.
> 
> That said I've ridden bareback a lot, gone on hacks, jumped bareback, galloped, etc. But my balance is from my core. I also come from a dressage background and yes I have trained in Europe, Ive trained with olympic and international riders/trainers, I have ridden GP horses. So my opinion comes from high level trainers and riders but my opinion is my opinion, I'd hardly call it fact as with horses most is opinion.


I guess we will have to just have different opinions which is fine. I am from Europe and learned to ride in Europe and all the training that followed exercises with a busy lower leg, all resolved with no stirrup work which by the way is very similar to riding bareback(just a little easier), which is what you said you see as a better exercise.


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