# Lets talk about Clinton Anderson :J



## Abstang2002

*Lets use this thread to talk about Clinton Anderson training and our opinions. I don't want any fighting, or anything like that at all, if that's what you're here for i would like it if you could exit. I just thought we could share our thoughts and opinions!  
I personally like Clinton Anderson. I have a few friends who have met him and don't like him because apparently he is a jerk in real life, but i don't see how that affects his ability to train a horse. Anyways, lol. I understand that his training doesn't work on every horse, but it definitely works for me! And has always been a good training method for me and my horses! :gallop::cowboy:*


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## Smilie

THis has been done to the point of tears on this forum! Just google this site and you will find a long, long, long thread on CA.


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## Abstang2002

oh, i had no idea! LOL Im fairly new here. thanks......


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## Joel Reiter

Here you go Abstang. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/clinton-anderson-715665/

There are many others, but that's the most recent and will keep you occupied for quite a while.

And Smilie is a reluctant admirer of Clinton Anderson, with some qualifications. :=)


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## jgnmoose

You can't have a "Horse Forum" without there being a few long threads on Clinton Anderson. 

Two points.

He took proven training techniques from multiple renowned horseman and formulated it into a template he could teach to people. There is nothing wrong with that, it is called "model and improve", it is the basis of all engineering and product development. Considering he left school as a teenager and all of his business stuff is self taught and finding good people to help him I think he is a brilliant businessman. 

He has the old school brash Queensland Ozzie persona. Chummy, likes to joke and tease, and not above making fun of everyone and everything including himself. If Clinton or someone like him ever treated people in a straight jacket manner, you can be almost certain that they don't like them. For every time he has called people 'tree hugging idiots', he has claimed that he barely knows where the diesel goes in the truck. That isn't what hyper-sensitive people hear though.


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## Smilie

Joel Reiter said:


> Here you go Abstang. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/clinton-anderson-715665/
> 
> There are many others, but that's the most recent and will keep you occupied for quite a while.
> 
> And Smilie is a reluctant admirer of Clinton Anderson, with some qualifications. :=)


Thanks, Joel, you made me chuckle!

Welcome, Abstang2002, and sorry if I came across as abrupt, and I certainly did not mean to. For some reason or another CA gets more debate then any other clinician


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## tinyliny

don't feel obliged to go to the other thread, and abandon your own. I think folks just wanted to let you know that there WAS another one. 

yes, CA is often the subject of contentious debate. you must be aware of that, or you would not have openned this thread with all the warnings.


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## Jan1975

Smilie said:


> THis has been done to the point of tears on this forum! Just google this site and you will find a long, long, long thread on CA.


Probably LITERALLY tears, too. :lol:

I've read his book and seen several videos. Just like with any expert, you take some info, you leave some.


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## SusanH

Actually I was hoping a new CA thread would come up.

I'll try to keep it short. But I tend to ramble... sorry....

In November I bought a "beginner safe horse". Harumph. He's a 14 yo paint, but he acts more like a 3 yo thoroughbred. I bought him from a lesson barn, and didn't bring my coach, and... well, he's mine now, and I'm trying to make the best of a very bad situation. (He's so bad in the cross ties that we are both sweaty and upset by the time I get his saddle on.... so, I'm too worked up to ride him, and have only ridden him ONCE since I've had him.)

Thus began the search for "what to do"? (He IS for sale, by the way....but, I figure I need to make the best of a bad situation.)

I found Carson James, joined his club, ran through all his videos in about a week, earned most of the "badges", and that was that. I found "Invisible Horse Control", bought those videos, ok, a couple of good tips, but not enough for my boy. Started watching CA on youtube. I loved the results, but was turned off by what initially appeared to be "abuse". Read the forums here, and started taking a look at Parelli. Bought their "step one" and their "horsenality" videos. (By the way, there's a LOT of anti-Parelli sentiment in prior posts about CA, PP and LP)

The Linda Parelli "horsenality" videos, to me, have been quite helpful. Helped me to realize the sort of horse I'm dealing with, and had a whole DVD on "his type" (right brained extrovert). Still, not enough to get him into a state that I can deal with him. But cantering the andrenline down did seem to make a quite difference in his level of tension.

So, circle back to CA. I bought the ebook "Establishing Respect and Control", because I didn't want to join the club, and I surely didn't want to spend the serious $$ to buy his fundamentals DVDs before I had more of a warm fuzzy that his "method" would work for me.

I've bought some training for my horse (no change really... but the barn changed his feed to low carb). I posted a video on Carson James' sight of him going mental on me... rearing up on his lead line...which was met with all kinds of "he's in pain"... "why do you have the stud chain on his nose"... yada yada.... had the vet come out, who put the stud chain on his nose.... (after all, maybe they know something I don't know)... he's fine... the vet said (since he "acted out" for the vet too) "he's just a punk."

Anyway, yesterday, armed with a few "techniques" from CA's book, I went to barn to work with my horse... first he ran me over, knocked me down, yelled to his pasture mates... kept cutting in front of me to get to the fresh snow (what's up with THAT)... just general WTF? (can a horse have ADD?)

FINALLY got to the indoor and began lunging... he was "ok"... CA's "thing" is "move their feet forward, backward, left and right"... so, backing up is a big "thing".... I could get him to back up, but not without pushing on his shoulders with all my might. So, using CA's "method" of swing the lead line and swing the stick under it.... voila! two steps back without me shoving my weight against him. Though I did feel like I had to put a LOT of energy into that ... in made me think, "Hmmmm..... could we have a winner in the "method" " to select for working with this bad boy?

I'm going again today, and hope to do at least four days in a row of working with him, to see if I can get a daily change in him. So, right now, my "plan" is to do the Parelli 'Horsenality', canter him on the lunge line until 'there is a change', then work the CA ground work with him....

*I* would appreciate some POSITIVE suggestions. I am NOT a trainer. I have only been riding about a year and a half... I'm pushing 63, so, I'm not a kid anymore, and don't have the ability to "bounce" when I fall, nor the energy to deal with this very high energy horse! Please keep the flames down, or away completely. I was flamed enough on the Carson James FB page.


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## farmpony84

Maybe try to start this thread over again but this time label it something like Clinton Anderson Methods - and then make it a thread to share experiences and discuss issues for members that are using the method rather than a discussion about liking him or not liking him?


Just a thought.


Years ago we had a Parelli thread that went all kinds of squirelly because of the likes and dislikes so the OP restarted a new thread and labeled it - Parelli method for members to discuss trials and errors or something like that. It was actually a really popular thread. At the time I was very ANTI-Parelli and so I would just roll my eyes when I read through the stuff, much like a lot of people do for the Clinton Anderson threads.


My sister in law was a huge Parelli fan, well, she still is so she loaned me the videos which I watched grudgingly. I belong to the Clinton Anderson No Worries club so I get those videos and have access to that library. 


The thing I learned over the years is that there is no ONE way to train a horse. I use a lot of Clinton Anderson, but I also use some Parelli, and John and Josh Lyons for my online trainers so it would be neat to have a thread dedicated to whatever on-line method someone might be following.


I also use real people trainers and then I have my own personal methods that I've learned through trial and error....


Anyway, good luck with this thread.


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## Abstang2002

SusanH said:


> Actually I was hoping a new CA thread would come up.
> 
> I'll try to keep it short. But I tend to ramble... sorry....
> 
> In November I bought a "beginner safe horse". Harumph. He's a 14 yo paint, but he acts more like a 3 yo thoroughbred. I bought him from a lesson barn, and didn't bring my coach, and... well, he's mine now, and I'm trying to make the best of a very bad situation. (He's so bad in the cross ties that we are both sweaty and upset by the time I get his saddle on.... so, I'm too worked up to ride him, and have only ridden him ONCE since I've had him.)
> 
> Thus began the search for "what to do"? (He IS for sale, by the way....but, I figure I need to make the best of a bad situation.)
> 
> I found Carson James, joined his club, ran through all his videos in about a week, earned most of the "badges", and that was that. I found "Invisible Horse Control", bought those videos, ok, a couple of good tips, but not enough for my boy. Started watching CA on youtube. I loved the results, but was turned off by what initially appeared to be "abuse". Read the forums here, and started taking a look at Parelli. Bought their "step one" and their "horsenality" videos. (By the way, there's a LOT of anti-Parelli sentiment in prior posts about CA, PP and LP)
> 
> The Linda Parelli "horsenality" videos, to me, have been quite helpful. Helped me to realize the sort of horse I'm dealing with, and had a whole DVD on "his type" (right brained extrovert). Still, not enough to get him into a state that I can deal with him. But cantering the andrenline down did seem to make a quite difference in his level of tension.
> 
> So, circle back to CA. I bought the ebook "Establishing Respect and Control", because I didn't want to join the club, and I surely didn't want to spend the serious $$ to buy his fundamentals DVDs before I had more of a warm fuzzy that his "method" would work for me.
> 
> I've bought some training for my horse (no change really... but the barn changed his feed to low carb). I posted a video on Carson James' sight of him going mental on me... rearing up on his lead line...which was met with all kinds of "he's in pain"... "why do you have the stud chain on his nose"... yada yada.... had the vet come out, who put the stud chain on his nose.... (after all, maybe they know something I don't know)... he's fine... the vet said (since he "acted out" for the vet too) "he's just a punk."
> 
> Anyway, yesterday, armed with a few "techniques" from CA's book, I went to barn to work with my horse... first he ran me over, knocked me down, yelled to his pasture mates... kept cutting in front of me to get to the fresh snow (what's up with THAT)... just general WTF? (can a horse have ADD?)
> 
> FINALLY got to the indoor and began lunging... he was "ok"... CA's "thing" is "move their feet forward, backward, left and right"... so, backing up is a big "thing".... I could get him to back up, but not without pushing on his shoulders with all my might. So, using CA's "method" of swing the lead line and swing the stick under it.... voila! two steps back without me shoving my weight against him. Though I did feel like I had to put a LOT of energy into that ... in made me think, "Hmmmm..... could we have a winner in the "method" " to select for working with this bad boy?
> 
> I'm going again today, and hope to do at least four days in a row of working with him, to see if I can get a daily change in him. So, right now, my "plan" is to do the Parelli 'Horsenality', canter him on the lunge line until 'there is a change', then work the CA ground work with him....
> 
> *I* would appreciate some POSITIVE suggestions. I am NOT a trainer. I have only been riding about a year and a half... I'm pushing 63, so, I'm not a kid anymore, and don't have the ability to "bounce" when I fall, nor the energy to deal with this very high energy horse! Please keep the flames down, or away completely. I was flamed enough on the Carson James FB page.




I personally like clinton, i am using his method to train my current project horse...and i have seen parts of CJ, and he is pretty good. although im not a huge fan of Parelli.. I do think CJ makes good points and his communication is good with the horse. Im really sorry about your situation! How does your horse freak out? does he get worked up, or actually try to hurt you (Kick buck etc) ? The horse i just got is disrespectful and rude, but even if you give her the opportunity to kick you, she wont. so what is your boy like? is he just rude and does what he wants or what?


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## Abstang2002

I didnt think anyone came across as abrupt or even rude.  I want to thank everyone for their replies so far... Really been interesting to hear opinions and stories. Ive tried to talk to people about it on other sites, and everyone just fights and is so rude.. so its sooooooo nice that this site is so peaceful and everyone is so nice!


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## tinyliny

I am very glad that your experience so far has been good.

personally, I am one of the NOT a fans of CA . we do exist.


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## Smilie

All I am going to say is that any clinician can be taken apart, and if someone does not like CA, or some of his methods, then as in anything else, don't use them.
Far as Horsenality-please, that is totally un substantiated, and Linda Parelli dreamed up the idea one night, and then presented to Pat in the morning-right from one of her presentations at the Mane Event . Oh, but there was a half price special , for the Event, where you could have your horse 's horsenality blue printed!
In the end, good horse training is good horse training, and you learn what is 'good' far as you yourself are concerned, and your horses. There is no ABC of horse training, and I don't care what name is attached


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## Abstang2002

tinyliny said:


> I am very glad that your experience so far has been good.
> 
> personally, I am one of the NOT a fans of CA . we do exist.



OH, believe me, i know you exist! lol, JK....I understand that his method doesnt work for everyone, or isnt a good fit for you and your horses. He is a very controversial trainer. you like him or hate him, there isnt much in between. I definitely adjust depending on the horse, im less harsh with sensitive horses, and harsh with butt hole horses (LOL) Thanks for sharing your opinion about him :loveshower:


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## Joel Reiter

SusanH said:


> I bought the ebook "Establishing Respect and Control", because I didn't want to join the club, and I surely didn't want to spend the serious $$ to buy his fundamentals DVDs before I had more of a warm fuzzy that his "method" would work for me..


Welcome Susan. I am also "pushing" 63. 

I understand your reluctance to part with almost $600 for the fundamentals kit, especially after you invested yourself in Carson James and came away not fully satisfied. However, it can be difficult to translate the written word into action. 

If you have the book, you know that it shows how to adjust for different types of horses and how to overcome typical trainer mistakes. The online videos can be helpful in illustrating what the book is saying. However, many of the episodes are dealing with some kind of dangerous horse, which is how Clinton gets the reputation for being severe.

Maybe you could get your library to buy the fundamentals or colt starter kit. Also, if Clinton ever comes near you with his walkabout tour, that is highly educational. It's fascinating to watch him live where he has no editing or control of what will happen and to watch how he deals with surprises. It isn't unusual to find free tickets on Craigslist.


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## horseylover1_1

I am also kind of glad another thread has been started because I didn't want to resurrect an old thread.

To start off with I am by no means a professional trainer. I would love to be one, someday. I love working with horses and would love to incorporate my passion into a career of sorts. So I am constantly researching different trainers' methods.

I think CA's methods work especially well on horses that are pushy, dominant, aggressive, etc. I have been working with a mare who has bad ground manners and an attitude as big as she is and have been following Clinton's principles to a "t" (though I have not watched any full length DVD's because they are equivalent to 4 months of board..) and she responds favorably to them. Her attitude improved after just two training sessions. Or I'd have to say at the very least, his methods give the humans the confidence/basic knowledge to work with a horse like that.

I think it ultimately boils down to NOT the method, (because I feel like Clinton could take 99% of horses and train them well and make a nice, well balanced horse out of them.) but the person's application of his method or any method. Clinton's methods may work well of horses of all different personalities, but I feel like a human's application of his ideas are going to vary from person to person. You can study, watch all his videos, go to every clinic, etc. and you're still not going to be CA. And that's OK. You as a trainer (because we are all trainers) have to be comfortable with the method and how it works for YOU and YOUR personality, not just your horse. 

And ultimately I agree with everyone that says there is no one true method to work with a horse. I personally like CA and applying his methods because he is a good teacher and easy to understand. After watching some trainers I just sit there wondering how on earth could I apply that to my horse. I do not feel that way after watching Clinton Anderson's videos.


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## jgnmoose

SusanH said:


> Actually I was hoping a new CA thread would come up.
> 
> I'll try to keep it short. But I tend to ramble... sorry....
> 
> In November I bought a "beginner safe horse". Harumph. He's a 14 yo paint, but he acts more like a 3 yo thoroughbred. I bought him from a lesson barn, and didn't bring my coach, and... well, he's mine now, and I'm trying to make the best of a very bad situation. (He's so bad in the cross ties that we are both sweaty and upset by the time I get his saddle on.... so, I'm too worked up to ride him, and have only ridden him ONCE since I've had him.)
> 
> Thus began the search for "what to do"? (He IS for sale, by the way....but, I figure I need to make the best of a bad situation.)
> 
> I found Carson James, joined his club, ran through all his videos in about a week, earned most of the "badges", and that was that. I found "Invisible Horse Control", bought those videos, ok, a couple of good tips, but not enough for my boy. Started watching CA on youtube. I loved the results, but was turned off by what initially appeared to be "abuse". Read the forums here, and started taking a look at Parelli. Bought their "step one" and their "horsenality" videos. (By the way, there's a LOT of anti-Parelli sentiment in prior posts about CA, PP and LP)
> 
> The Linda Parelli "horsenality" videos, to me, have been quite helpful. Helped me to realize the sort of horse I'm dealing with, and had a whole DVD on "his type" (right brained extrovert). Still, not enough to get him into a state that I can deal with him. But cantering the andrenline down did seem to make a quite difference in his level of tension.
> 
> So, circle back to CA. I bought the ebook "Establishing Respect and Control", because I didn't want to join the club, and I surely didn't want to spend the serious $$ to buy his fundamentals DVDs before I had more of a warm fuzzy that his "method" would work for me.
> 
> I've bought some training for my horse (no change really... but the barn changed his feed to low carb). I posted a video on Carson James' sight of him going mental on me... rearing up on his lead line...which was met with all kinds of "he's in pain"... "why do you have the stud chain on his nose"... yada yada.... had the vet come out, who put the stud chain on his nose.... (after all, maybe they know something I don't know)... he's fine... the vet said (since he "acted out" for the vet too) "he's just a punk."
> 
> Anyway, yesterday, armed with a few "techniques" from CA's book, I went to barn to work with my horse... first he ran me over, knocked me down, yelled to his pasture mates... kept cutting in front of me to get to the fresh snow (what's up with THAT)... just general WTF? (can a horse have ADD?)
> 
> FINALLY got to the indoor and began lunging... he was "ok"... CA's "thing" is "move their feet forward, backward, left and right"... so, backing up is a big "thing".... I could get him to back up, but not without pushing on his shoulders with all my might. So, using CA's "method" of swing the lead line and swing the stick under it.... voila! two steps back without me shoving my weight against him. Though I did feel like I had to put a LOT of energy into that ... in made me think, "Hmmmm..... could we have a winner in the "method" " to select for working with this bad boy?
> 
> I'm going again today, and hope to do at least four days in a row of working with him, to see if I can get a daily change in him. So, right now, my "plan" is to do the Parelli 'Horsenality', canter him on the lunge line until 'there is a change', then work the CA ground work with him....
> 
> *I* would appreciate some POSITIVE suggestions. I am NOT a trainer. I have only been riding about a year and a half... I'm pushing 63, so, I'm not a kid anymore, and don't have the ability to "bounce" when I fall, nor the energy to deal with this very high energy horse! Please keep the flames down, or away completely. I was flamed enough on the Carson James FB page.


What you have stumbled on is the essence of why the "Method" is superior to the other DYI stuff out there. 

You can basically ignore Parelli. His early stuff is good but at this point it s about leading wealthy people with the wrong horse down a path that leads nowhere. 

My clinic would go like this...
Step one, get a broke horse and dump the OTTB that you are terrified to be around let alone ride. You can see the marketing challenge, I think my ranch wouldn't make much money. 

As tempting as it is to enumerate through all the TV horseman I'll just say that in my opinion that the ones to pay attention to are Chris Cox, Clinton Anderson and Craig Cameron. 

CA has the best program and in thorough detail. If you want details, steps, measurables, then there is nobody else providing that. If all you've watched is the youtube stuff, you know basically nothing about it since those are basically adverts for the DVD kits. He is the only person who has broken it down into an exercise, what the horse is supposed to do, what you are supposed to do, common problems (horse rears instead of back), and fixes. I think his Horsemanship 101 series, both the original and the second one are some of the best horsemanship videos ever made.

Instead of talking about the faults of each one I'll just say that it is my observation that a lot of great horseman can "show you" something, but almost none can verbalize it. I suppose that is just how it is. You've watched a lot of Carson James, I'm sure you can see that in his videos. With some degree of confidence I can say that few people who attend his clinics can go home and repeat that with their horses. 

That is what CA is trying to provide, steps, details, instructions, a troubleshooting list, ways to know if you are getting it or not. This is DYI horsemanship stuff. 

If you are simply talking about who is best at training the horses first hand, that is almost a different topic.


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## Smilie

There is absolutely no science behind horsenality, and the entire right brain/left brain has been debunked ages ago
Guess you could check an astrology chart also, JMO!
I think the best course of action for the Op,is to invest in a good trainer to work with her and this hrose, versus buying into systems sold on DVDs ,for horse training
You need some ability to read a horse, apply the right amount of Pressure and release,in order to use any of those virtual training programs correctly


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## Zexious

^This is slightly (ok, not slightly... extremely) off topic, but I actually had a buyer back out of a sale in part due to "horse astrology." The buyer claimed that, after research, she was adamant that she and the filly couldn't possibly get along because they were opposing signs. 
My point is things don't have to be real for them to be real in their consequences xD


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## farmpony84

Smilie said:


> There is absolutely no science behind horsenality, and the entire right brain/left brain has been debunked ages ago
> Guess you could check an astrology chart also, JMO!
> I think the best course of action for the Op,is to invest in a good trainer to work with her and this hrose, versus buying into systems sold on DVDs ,for horse training
> You need some ability to read a horse, apply the right amount of Pressure and release,in order to use any of those virtual training programs correctly


BUT... You have to admit... the Parellis are most definitely marketing geniuses...


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## farmpony84

Riley was so obnoxious and in my face that the CA method was what I really needed for him. I am a very confident rider on the horses back, but on the ground I'm a total dufus. I never lunged Pistol because he reared. All the time. I never corrected his rearing... because it was cool... I just gave it a command... So because he was a hunter jumper, I got away with the bad ground manners and no lunging... But you know... I was a teenager when our love affair began nearly 30 years ago. I must admit, we've had a great run.

Riley was my first baby. (Pistol was 3 when I got him). So, I had no problem halter breaking Ri, that was easy. Teaching him to tie was done by my trainer. I boarded Beauty at the trainers for his birth and about his first six months or so. When I got him home I had no idea what I was doing so he really walked all over me. I remember just about having a heart attack when I took him to state fair at 17 months. The ring was between the tundra truck challenge and the demolition derby. Shockingly, that didn't bother him. Where he got excited was when we go to the ring and people were riding. I think he was feeling playful because he was charging towards me and bouncing up and down and I had no idea how to react and no one bothered to help me. I got through it but that was the scariest weekend I had ever been through.... I did walk away with a reserve grand champion in halter and a first place in showmanship.... BUT.... I had was sick from stress.

After that I watched some Monty Roberts videos but it kind of blew my mind so I switched to the John and Josh Lyons videos. Josh was easiest for me to understand and I actually thought I was making real progress until I started showing him as a two year old. I took him to Lexington and he was a monster. He was charging into the lunge circle and kicking at me. He had his ears pinned and his teeth bared. It was horrible. I got through that weekend too and we ended up earning our first AQHA points. But he got me so terrified that I would almost puke before shows. 

So I ended up taking ground lessons from a trainer that was about an hour and a half away. The trainers that I would call either wanted me to send the horse to them for 30 days or just felt like he was not worth messing with if his ground manners were that bad. The problem was that he was an angel at home and at the shows if someone else took him from me, they had no issues. Which meant that I was the problem, not the horse. So this guy gave me a half hour lesson on the ground and then an hour on the back. Riley as awesome for him, he looked like one of the CA demo horses when this guy worked him, but when I worked him... hahahah!

Well... I got to where I was doing pretty ok with him and even took him to Frying Pan park AND lunged him with zero incident! I took him to a clinic and again... Had a great time! I was so proud but I still had a lot of stress when it came to going to shows because if he got a bur up his rear then he would revert and I am not a good dancer... Which is part of my problem. I can hardly two step so my ground movements just aren't as pretty as they could be. 

I finally had a break through one day when I was in the pasture changing out paddocks. He showed his ornery side and I forget exactly what he did. I think he hit me in the face with his face or something like that. I lost my temper and grabbed the nearest object which was the chain that I close the gate with. I didn't ever touch him with it but I spun that chain and I used my mama voice and I made him work for twenty minutes. I finally learned what it meant to "make yourself big". 

And would you believe... after that... we have NEVER had an issue. He has been 100% respectful... It doesn't matter where we are, at home, at a show, on a trail... He is a good, good boy.

There was a day on this forum where people posted a picture of Linda Parelli trying to lunge a horse that was giving her issues. They were making fun of her and talking about how awful she was doing and so I went in to watch. That was back when I was crazy anti-parrelli. I watched the video and she was sloppy and she was struggling... but I got it. I saw what she was doing. I went outside and I used it on Riley and Blue... and it was awesome. So... You can learn from anyone.

I'm doing a Clinton Anderson mix with baby horse. He is really reactive so if you push too hard you can rile him up a lot but if you keep it quiet and calm more like the Lyons type videos you can get a lot more out of him, but I'm doing it with the CA style. Only slower...

He leaves for a trainer next month and I'm not sure what "his" method is but his training includes a lesson a week so i'm sure I will learn. I'm also going to sign him up for some clinics too so...


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## Joel Reiter

jgnmoose said:


> That is what CA is trying to provide, steps, details, instructions, a troubleshooting list, ways to know if you are getting it or not. This is DYI horsemanship stuff.
> 
> If you are simply talking about who is best at training the horses first hand, that is almost a different topic.


Very true. I have heard Clinton Anderson say more than once that his goal is to be the best people trainer, not the best horse trainer.

You could give all kinds of awards if you want to be very specific. Maybe Ray Hunt was the best horse trainer. Nicest: Richard Winters or Stacy Westfall. Most gentle: Mark Rashid. Most "Road to the Horse" wins: Chris Cox. Cheapest DVDs: Carson James.

But nobody makes it as easy to follow as Clinton Anderson. His method is the unabridged and unequaled Horses for Dummies.


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## 6gun Kid

Smilie said:


> There is absolutely no science behind horsenality, and the entire right brain/left brain has been debunked ages ago


 The minute somebody tells me their horse is a right/left brained intro/extravert, I quit taking them seriously.


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## Abstang2002

LOL, it wasnt debunked ages ago. its still a very active training method that lots use today. just because you dont like it doesnt mean its not true. I wanna keep things peaceful. i wish i could turn off replies at some point. because im sorta done with this thread now LOL XD


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## tinyliny

I think the discussion has been perfectly peaceful so far. if you only want to talk with people who will mimic exactly what you think about something, then starting a thread on a public forum isn't a good place to go about it.
I got the feeling you mostly wanted to hear folks who like CA, so beyond saying I wasn't a fan, I didn't go into any kind of explanation. if you think this is distressing, you aint seen how bad it CAN get! (not that I'm advocating we try !)


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## farmpony84

6gun Kid said:


> The minute somebody tells me their horse is a right/left brained intro/extravert, I quit taking them seriously.


Oh but my horse IS right/left brained intro/extravert/calm/butthead/loving/kind/obnoxious/mean/ornery/silly/cute/dirty/hungry......

etc.....

Honest. He is.


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## tinyliny

I once had a friend start to try and explain the whole thing, the right/left brain, in/out etc. Parellit thing. my eyes glazed over. You'd need a college class to learn all that. just observe your horse, without a preconceived 'map'. all the time you spend trying to pigeon hole your horse into one category or another is time you could have been spending just watching, with a blank slate, learning what HE or SHE will tell you about himself, and who he/she is.


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## Joel Reiter

Abstang, from my two years on this forum, I'd say Clinton is controversial but has his supporters here. Parelli is more controversial and his supporters are fewer. As far as the horsenality thing in particular, it appears to me that if there are any supporters on this forum they hide when the subject is raised. I don't blame them.

I studied some psychology and did professional counseling in a different life. I'm familiar with the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, or MMPI as it is better known. I've used the Taylor Johnson Temperament Analysis, and I've had experience with a whole hoard of other more primitive tools. Right now we have a new boss in the office who wants to get everybody to take the DiSC assessment, whatever that is.

All of these products have the advantage of pointing out how different people have differing orientations that affect the way they think and react. None of them, alas, provides a solution to the problem that we are all about three rides short of a theme park.

The reason Smilie and others say the right brained, left brained concept is outdated is because further scientific research has demonstrated that the initial theories were too simple. See for example, EDUCERI - OECD Centre for Educational Research and Innovation (CERI)

So, the right brained/left brained label isn't a physiologically accurate description of what's going on inside your horse. That doesn't mean that the terms can't be useful in describing horse behavior, or comprehending how one horse differs from another. My problem with the Parelli horsenality thing is it seems too complicated to be useful to most people, too detached from science to be accurate, and too controversial to be helpful in describing a horse to other horse folk. It also bugs me a little that it is totally Linda's thing, and I don't think Pat even pays any attention to it.

Parelli and Clinton Anderson have both worked incredibly hard and become very successful. Clinton was fortunate enough to come on the scene later and observe what was working and avoid the years of trial and error that Parelli suffered. But one of the biggest differences between their business models is Clinton Anderson is a one-man show and he remains in complete control, while Parelli has become a corporation and it's very hard to tell who's in charge any more. Pat is my age, and I'm sure he's happy not to have to carry the load of the day to day operation any more. But I wonder if some times he wishes he still had enough control to say, "that doesn't make sense to me, let's not do that any more."


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## SusanH

Thank you for your viewpoint. I think this is the most helpful so far, and best advert for getting the CA videos.
The eBook is pretty good, but the problem is "well, I did this thing, and this thing happened (that wasn't supposed to), what do I do?"


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## SusanH

@tinyliny and others...(and very cute farmpony84  )

Ok, I get it "right brained/left brained" is probably bunk... but I downloaded a chart from Parelli's site, and put a mark on all the things my horse does and is, and he came out, mostly "right brained extrovert". I actually think the most useful information was that "extroverts" need to move/run.... so, lunging down his adrenaline before we try to actually do any other training DOES seem to work.

I agree with everyone who says that CA "explains" more than Parelli. That CA has probably learned from Parelli mistakes through the years. On some level I find their approaches very similar. I appreciate that CA has "the one" big catch phrase ("to get respect you have to move their feet forward, backward, left and right"). Oh, Parelli is right about the various characteristics he attaches to horse... I could not possible spit them all out in the rapid fire manner that he does, but the ones I caught made sense... "cowards" (well, heck, they are prey animals)... "claustrophobics"... (Well, ya, where do you think the predators hang out)... those are the two I remember.

Though I did not start this thread, I very much appreciate everyone's input. You all have me very close to "pulling the trigger" and joining the "no worries club".... which essentially makes it "a wash" on the first video series... the $200 (if you pay for the year up front) for the NWC is pretty much the discount on the first set of videos.... I worry that I won't watch however many hundreds of hours of videos...but I guess NWC members get monthly DVDs, etc.


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## 6gun Kid

SusanH said:


> Though I did not start this thread, I very much appreciate everyone's input. You all have me very close to "pulling the trigger" and joining the "no worries club".... .


 Put your gun back in the holster for a second ( :rofl:I crack myself up, sometimes). I just want to add my 2 cents. Don't lock yourself in to one trainer's philosophy, cherry pick what works for you from several. I use some of Clinton, some of Buck Brannaman (a lot of Buck, actually), some of Dennis Reis, some of Curt and Tammy Pate, a little Bob Kinford, a little Chris Cox, whatever it takes to get the job done, for that particular horse. However, I have never found anything of use from the Parelli circus, which is a shame because 20 years ago, he was a helluva mule trainer!


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## SusanH

Oh I totally agree with cherry picking. I just think to get the full benefit from CA, I probably need the fundamentals "kit". I tried to find one on eBay, but they wanted just as much for it as the CA site, AND the first two DVDs were missing. 
Um... really?

(and I cracked myself up with the "Frau Blucher" reference.  )


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## Avna

|I wish I ever learned anything from watching videos. Then I could get excited or disgusted about distant trainers and their techniques too. As it is . . .


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## tinyliny

Avna said:


> |I wish I ever learned anything from watching videos. Then I could get excited or disgusted about distant trainers and their techniques too. As it is . . .



really? you never get excited about, or learn anything from watching videos? I am sure that there are some good ones out there. I enjoy Warwick Schiller.

I watched this guy named Micheal Peace. a Brit. he trains a lot different than I'm used to, but the thing is, IT WORKS! that is what I like to see, in videos, what some folks can achieve from a training method that I would never consider 'right', based on my own world. I SEE someone work and get good results, and it intrigues me.


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## Avna

tinyliny said:


> really? you never get excited about, or learn anything from watching videos? I am sure that there are some good ones out there. I enjoy Warwick Schiller.
> 
> I watched this guy named Micheal Peace. a Brit. he trains a lot different than I'm used to, but the thing is, IT WORKS! that is what I like to see, in videos, what some folks can achieve from a training method that I would never consider 'right', based on my own world. I SEE someone work and get good results, and it intrigues me.


Nope. I can't stand watching them for more than about a minute. I don't know why. I just can't concentrate on the little talking screen guy. Like I got the DVD "Buck" and it was pretty but I didn't learn much (not that it was meant as a teaching video though). When I audited a Brannaman clinic and couldn't hear much of what he said I just watched how he moved around the horse and learned a lot.

Truth is, the only way I ever learn anything that isn't just facts, is by doing it myself. Guidance at the time I'm doing it is great! But if I'm by myself I learn just as much, only different things.


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## Joel Reiter

Avna said:


> When I audited a Brannaman clinic and couldn't hear much of what he said I just watched how he moved around the horse and learned a lot.


Stacy Westfall once said you should watch every horse video at least once with the sound off, otherwise you will be so distracted by the trainer that you won't focus on the horse.


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## Joel Reiter

6gun Kid said:


> Don't lock yourself in to one trainer's philosophy, cherry pick what works for you from several.


6gun, I think that's great advice as long as you thoroughly understand at least one trainer's approach. I don't think buying a Clinton Anderson fundamentals kit or a colt starting kit is locking yourself into one philosophy. I have learned things from many trainers. Clinton Anderson himself says he buys new DVDs all the time, because if he comes across a single insight that makes a technique easier to explain, he feels he got his money's worth. So even Clinton Anderson isn't locked into a single philosophy.

There are many ways to gain a horse's trust and respect and shape his behavior to what we want. All of them are more easily understood after you master the basics.


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## farmpony84

6gun Kid said:


> Put your gun back in the holster for a second ( :rofl:I crack myself up, sometimes). I just want to add my 2 cents. Don't lock yourself in to one trainer's philosophy, cherry pick what works for you from several. I use some of Clinton, some of Buck Brannaman (a lot of Buck, actually), some of Dennis Reis, some of Curt and Tammy Pate, a little Bob Kinford, a little Chris Cox, whatever it takes to get the job done, for that particular horse. However, I have never found anything of use from the Parelli circus, which is a shame because 20 years ago, he was a helluva mule trainer!


Just who do you think you are? Coming in here tautin' all that common sense stuff! Sheesh... Some people... got walk in a room with their head all straight on their shoulders and speaking all kinds of deep stuff...

I mean, aw heck - where is that like button anyway?


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## farmpony84

SusanH said:


> Oh I totally agree with cherry picking. I just think to get the full benefit from CA, I probably need the fundamentals "kit". I tried to find one on eBay, but they wanted just as much for it as the CA site, AND the first two DVDs were missing.
> Um... really?
> 
> (and I cracked myself up with the "Frau Blucher" reference.  )


Or you can join the no worries club for $19 per month and then quit it whenever you feel like you have gotten enough out of it. They send you a DVD every month and you have full access to TONS of videos... I like it...


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## cruiseforever

jgnmoose said:


> .
> 
> Instead of talking about the faults of each one I'll just say that it is my observation that a lot of great horseman can "show you" something, but almost none can verbalize it. I suppose that is just how it is. You've watched a lot of Carson James, I'm sure you can see that in his videos. With some degree of confidence I can say that few people who attend his clinics can go home and repeat that with their horses.
> 
> 
> .


I love this. My wife who is a great rider and good trainer has been coaching/training me for many years. When I ask her to explain, she just tosses up her hands and tells me. "I do not know how to tell you. It a feel thing"


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## Smilie

cruiseforever said:


> I love this. My wife who is a great rider and good trainer has been coaching/training me for many years. When I ask her to explain, she just tosses up her hands and tells me. "I do not know how to tell you. It a feel thing"



A husband that actually allows his wife to coach him! I have given up on mine, and now only give him riding advise if he asks.
He also does not ride my horses, just his trail horse, for that very reason.


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## cruiseforever

Smilie said:


> A husband that actually allows his wife to coach him! I have given up on mine, and now only give him riding advise if he asks.
> He also does not ride my horses, just his trail horse, for that very reason.[/Q
> 
> :smile:. I know the feeling. The more I learn, the more humble I become.


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## kateemma

*Finding solutions not punishing symptoms*

This is an interesting discussion. I haven't followed or done a lot of NH, when a guy rang me a few years back to see if I would train his daughters' pony he said "I assume you do Natural Horsemanship" and I said "I do common sense horsemanship." Lol. I didn't end up working with his pony because I went to meet him and got a real weird vibe, like he was determined to get results and just went from one horse trainer to the next. Plus the pony was a former wild child (Kaimanawa pony, I'm in New Zealand and it's one of our feral herds) and I've only ever worked with domesticated horses. And according to another trainer who'd already attempted to work with the guy and the pony, the pony was unsound and he wouldn't believe her. So I walked away. 

But anyway that was irrelevant. I have read Monty Roberts' books and followed Buck Brannaman's movie and read his biography, I guess I've found myself more interested in the bios than the methods. The trainer who has influenced and helped me the most is Vicki Wilson who won this year's Road to the Horse competition, she has a really good way about her with the horses and understands how to get the best out of them when they're being difficult. 

I guess the reason I'm commenting is to say to the OP that if Vicki was there helping you, the first thing she'd do is to work out whether your horse has any physical pain or issues causing his behaviour. 9 times out of 10 that's what it comes down to and I can't count the number of horses she's had that have been given to her or sold for peanuts from professional jumpers who say the horse is dangerous or unrideable. Most of her team of Grand Prix show jumpers have been designated unrideable, some by Olympic riders, yet she has managed big wins on them all through calm, correct training and sorting out issues in their bodies. She did a great clinic at RTTH on Day 1 showing how she does chiropractic work on her horses, she rode a Thoroughbred that was considered dangerous to ride and kept bucking his owner and trainer off, he was bucking a whole lot with her too but she hopped off, adjusted him, got back on and was able to canter both ways on a soft rein without him trying to buck. The other demo horse she had was a 3yo that was being started under saddle, but every time they put a saddle on her she bucked, just on the lunge. Again Vicki showed that, adjusted the horse, then saddled her up again and lunged her again. The horse stopped cross cantering, she stopped bucking and was able to canter freely on both reins. 

She doesn't have any training DVDs, and although she won RTTH I don't think she'll be starting a DVD training empire because she's also got plans to compete in Europe and possibly get to the Olympic Games in the next 5-10 years but if you want to know more about her you can look at www.wilsonsisters.nz where she and her sisters have books and DVDs about their experiences training wild horses, which they've done a lot of now (working with New Zealand Kaimanawas, Australian brumbies and American mustangs). 

So question for the OP - has your horse had a full work over by a good chiropractor or physio? It could be something physical that's upsetting him. Horses don't wake up one day and decide to be naughty, they don't get out of bed and say 'today's a really good day to pick on my rider'. There's always a reason for what they do, and Vicki's philosophy is about finding solutions, not punishing symptoms. As she said in her clinic, while riding the TB, "he's not saying put a big bit and a big pair of spurs on me and give me a hiding, he's trying to tell me that something is wrong." 

One thing Vicki said in her clinic too was that you should see an immediate fix in your horse, when it does get treated. If your chiropractor isn't getting results, if they adjust your horse but the horse is still tight, still flinching, showing no improvement, then you shouldn't just take their word as gospel and you should maybe look for someone else. Question everything, and look for professionals who are willing to explain what they do and why they do it. Sometimes you can't fix everything at once but there should be noticeable improvement. For example I have a horse who was very headshy when he came to me, especially around his poll. I worked slowly with him for a few months, then Vicki came down to give me a jumping lesson and she said "his poll is out, get someone to work on him to see if they can fix it." So I tried two people, the first couldn't get near my horse's poll because he kept trying to kick her (very out of character for him), the second could massage him there gently but not much else. So I went back to Vicki and she said "give this guy Dan a call and see if he'll come down this far." So I called Dan, and he came down, and within 5 minutes of him working on my horse his poll was sorted, I could easily touch his head and bridling no longer took 20 minutes every day. There was still some residual memory but he came right so quickly. Vicki likewise said in her clinic at RTTH that she had a pony that had been diagnosed with shivers, and couldn't hold his back feet up long enough for her to shoe him. Dan treated him and within an hour she had shoes on him. 

That's where I would start. (You may have been down this road, but I don't think you mentioned it so I'm just throwing it out there.) Good luck with finding your horse a new home.


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