# Tobiano questions



## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Do you have a pic of the first horse from the rear? Looks like a buckskin to me. Second horse just looks black and white.


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## cupcakequeen (Mar 23, 2013)

haviris said:


> Do you have a pic of the first horse from the rear? Looks like a buckskin to me. Second horse just looks black and white.


No sorry not able to get to her right now to get a rear picture.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

2nd horse is just sunburnt black, really dark brown. Can't tell anything about the first horse re: dun coloration, can't see zebra stripes on the legs, and can't see the dun line on the top to see if it really looks dun or just countershading.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Do you know what color the dam was on that first mare? Unless the dam was dun, there is absolutely no way she can be dun. Dun doesn't skip a generation and it always shows up, so in order for her to be dun, she'd have to have at least one dun parent. The sire is ruled out as the source of the dun gene as he is listed as chestnut tobiano. 

The second horse is a faded/sunbleached black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cupcakequeen (Mar 23, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Do you know what color the dam was on that first mare? Unless the dam was dun, there is absolutely no way she can be dun. Dun doesn't skip a generation and it always shows up, so in order for her to be dun, she'd have to have at least one dun parent. The sire is ruled out as the source of the dun gene as he is listed as chestnut tobiano.
> 
> The second horse is a faded/sunbleached black.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunately I dont know the color of the dam I have tried to find out but came up empty handed.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

If shes got a dorsal stripe shes a dun-- i looked through the pedigree for a dun and found that sun mac miss' dam is a dun 'Sun maid' theres definitely dun factor in her blood.. 

The black tobiano is just sun bleached.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Looks dun to me......and he looks black.

Nancy


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

The first horse I wonder if she is brown based dun but I'd like to see her dorsal stripe to confirm its not countershading. The 2nd horse is black with sunfading.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

toto said:


> _If shes got a dorsal stripe shes a dun_-- i looked through the pedigree for a dun and found that sun mac miss' dam is a dun 'Sun maid' theres definitely dun factor in her blood..
> 
> The black tobiano is just sun bleached.


Re the italicised. A dorsal stripe does not automatically mean the horse is dun. Countershading and grey can both cause very clear dorsal stripes with no dun present.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

toto said:


> If shes got a dorsal stripe shes a dun-- i looked through the pedigree for a dun and found that sun mac miss' dam is a dun 'Sun maid' theres definitely dun factor in her blood...


But Sun Mac Miss is listed as "b" (bay? black? brown?) If she didn't inherit the dun then it couldn't have gotten passed on, as dun is a simple dominant- if it's present it will be expressed and it doesn't skip generations.

There's also cream in the pedigree from Prince Konocti, and no colors listed for the progeny afterward, so very possible that that's where it came from.

Of course, AllBreedPedigree isn't 100% reliable. Anyone have access to the AQHA registry and want to check the color of Tardys Centerfold?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I agree with taking allbreed's listing of colors with a grain of salt. The AQHA would be more helpful, but still possible to not be 100% accurate. The first one could be dun, but a different angle would be better. And even then, I'd be curious about being a dunskin versus just bay dun.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

There is a AQHA 1989 Brown mare named Tardys Centerfold on AQHA site 

So with colors listed of the sire & dam can't see how your horse could be DUN unless somebody is not registered with correct color :-?


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## Crossescowgirl (Apr 29, 2013)

Sometimes horses can throw us colts that suprise us it could be right
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Crossescowgirl said:


> Sometimes horses can throw us colts that suprise us it could be right
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not with dun, though. As someone else said, it's a simple dominant. If the horse has it, it will express visually. It doesn't hide and it doesn't skip generations. One of the parents HAS to be a dun in order for the offspring to be a dun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

closest Dun in pedigree I found on AQHA was coming from Prince Konocti so unless those horses coming after him are all mis-registered in color .....


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Which would take a lot of effort. I feel like there would be a lot more horses misregistered AS dun because most people think any sort of marking down the back = dun, when it could easily be countershading.


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## ariatgirl2008 (Sep 17, 2012)

I have a mare who is palomino and was regisretered as a cremello as a filly.. I have no idea why they thought she was a cremello.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Keep in mind that when foals/horses are registered, at least with the APHA/AQHA, the registration group reviews the registration form you fill out, looks at the pictures, reviews the pedigree records, and then can (and will) change it based on their opinion/interpretation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Keep in mind that when foals/horses are registered, at least with the APHA/AQHA, the registration group reviews the registration form you fill out, looks at the pictures, reviews the pedigree records, and then can (and will) change it based on their opinion/interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if you'd like an idea of who's doing this type of judging, check out the AQHA's facebook page and find a woman by the name of Lisa. :-x


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

verona1016 said:


> But Sun Mac Miss is listed as "b" (bay? black? brown?) If she didn't inherit the dun then it couldn't have gotten passed on, as dun is a simple dominant- if it's present it will be expressed and it doesn't skip generations.
> 
> There's also cream in the pedigree from Prince Konocti, and no colors listed for the progeny afterward, so very possible that that's where it came from.
> 
> Of course, AllBreedPedigree isn't 100% reliable. Anyone have access to the AQHA registry and want to check the color of Tardys Centerfold?




I agree with the bay and buckskin making a buckskin-(EeAaCrcr) but not with a dorsal is all.. Im waitin to see it too, lol.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Keep in mind that when foals/horses are registered, at least with the APHA/AQHA, the registration group reviews the registration form you fill out, looks at the pictures, reviews the pedigree records, and then can (and will) change it based on their opinion/interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And are just as likely to get it wrong.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> And if you'd like an idea of who's doing this type of judging, check out the AQHA's facebook page and find a woman by the name of Lisa. :-x


I know exactly how you feel about that lady.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I know exactly how you feel about that lady.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hey- The woman that answers color genetics questions on the AQHA facebook page?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Yes. That would be the one. I have come close to about ripping my hair out at some of her answers. 

"Is my gelding a roan or not?"
"Yes. He is a roan, but only on his belly and sides."

Rabicano. That is called rabicano. You are being paid to do this and you should know how to use Google. Fix yourself.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Yes. That would be the one. I have come close to about ripping my hair out at some of her answers.
> 
> "Is my gelding a roan or not?"
> "Yes. He is a roan, but only on his belly and sides."
> ...


My sentiments exactly!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Back to the OP  It seems that the horse in question is most likely buckskin (either classic or seal bay base), with cream coming from the dam (who must be seal bay buckskin, even though she's registered as brown).


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Warning! I do not wish to offend all the folks knowledgeable in horse genetics.

I am much more familiar with the APHA than the AQHA, but I assume this applies to them, too.

These registries judge/decide/respond based on their rule book, not genetics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Warning! I do not wish to offend all the folks knowledgeable in horse genetics.
> 
> I am much more familiar with the APHA than the AQHA, but I assume this applies to them, too.
> 
> ...


This is true; they also don't have options for all color combinations. For example, I believe a dunskin gets registered either as dun or buckskin, but not both.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

verona1016 said:


> This is true; they also don't have options for all color combinations. For example, I believe a dunskin gets registered either as dun or buckskin, but not both.


Exactly. As far as registration goes, a horse can only be one "color", and that color must be listed in the rule book. Unique characteristics/markings/etc can be listed on the certificate,, though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Exactly. As far as registration goes, a horse can only be one "color", and that color must be listed in the rule book. Unique characteristics/markings/etc can be listed on the certificate,, though
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think registrations should start stepping into the modern age of equine color generics and conform to the new genetically proven colors. I think there would be a lot less confusion out there and better educated owners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I think registrations should start stepping into the modern age of equine color generics and conform to the new genetically proven colors. I think there would be a lot less confusion out there and better educated owners.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Agreed! 1 million percent!! 

But what a mess theyd have to clean up with the incorrect collors theyve already put on papers! :hide: its overwhelming for me to even think about, lol.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I think registrations should start stepping into the modern age of equine color generics and conform to the new genetically proven colors. I think there would be a lot less confusion out there and better educated owners.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This!! 

Instead of people insisting that their clearly brown horse is a bay or a black because it's papers say it is, we'd have people who understood why their horse is brown as opposed to bay or black. Or people arguing that their horse couldn't possibly carry frame because it's registered as a tobiano, when the horse very obviously carries frame, even visible to the untrained eye. I could go on, but I think you get my point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

toto said:


> Agreed! 1 million percent!!
> 
> But what a mess theyd have to clean up with the incorrect collors theyve already put on papers! :hide: its overwhelming for me to even think about, lol.


It certainly would be a mess, but they're not worried about cleaning up color/pattern errors. Since a main reason for the registries is to maintain "purity" of the breed, they are more concerned with parentage errors. In the APHA, a live cover, Paint x Paint foal registration does not require DNA parentage testing, I.e. they trust the breeder filed the correct breeding certificate. The APHA actually started a random foal DNA sampling effort to try and get an idea of how often parentage errors do happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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