# Pat Parelli Abuses Horse "Catwalk" at Festival of the Horse Natural Horsemanship Demo



## Eliz

Great. Just what we need.


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## Poco1220

Did they finally post a video of it? *runs off to youtube*


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## ridergirl23

HAHAHAHA i must say, i LOVED how the musicwas all soothing in the background, while Pat go all angry at a horse. Its sad he didnt just say: "okay, this horse is nervous to this new enviroment, so were not going to do as planned because he needs a littlemore work" *go out,get another hrose* 

OR shown them what to do (in a nice way!!) when the horse is like that. AKA groundwork, to get his attention on you. then practice touching his ears and face in a relaxed way until he is relaxed. 

I would have totally loved to be there. And stand-up and say: 'GOOD JOB PAT! keep up the GREAT horse whispering!!!' 

He could have just said, 'hey, its still a troubled horse, not everything goes right all the time!' and they would have understood.

My horse used to be deathly scared of people touching her ears... it took a while, but everytime i brought her in from the feild, or wanted to ride, i would touch her ears... now i can touch her ears all i want. Its the simplest ways that work the best. lol.

Losing your temper is the biggest fault people have, it can compeltly ruin a horse.


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## Eliz

^
Losing your temper is BAD when you're with horses. If you get mad, turn the horse out, and WALK AWAY. Calm down, take deep breaths and really think before you work with your horse when you get mad.

I watched two of clinton anderson's headshy videos on RFDTV, and he made ALOT of progress in just an hour. Wow, parelli's BS is really starting to catch up to him!

This is pretty sick as well:


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## Charis

Between this and Linda's video earlier this year I'm interested to see what direction the program goes.


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## Scoutrider

Good heavens! Where's my popcorn?? *Sits back to watch the thread evolve*. :hide:

If Mr. Parelli wants to deal with his horses this way, more power to him. His horses, his party. If the owners of the horse are content to watch this carry on for the 2 hours described in the clip, that's their affair. That being said, call it what it is; it certainly isn't "love, language, and leadership". If Mr. P did that to my horse, I'd show him right where to put that carrot stick. :shock:

I've personally bridled horses, just seen a small kid at a 4-H meeting with a tall horse and ask if they needed help, slid the bridle on piece o' cake, and had the kid tell me that the horse had never been bridled without a twitch and a panic attack before. Perhaps there is a time or place for twitching/hobbling/whatever-the-heck he was doing, but it does look like a pretty darn harsh reaction for the simple "don't touch my head" evasion.


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## Charis

Wrong video. Oops.


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## Scoutrider

Charis said:


> Between this and Linda's video earlier this year I'm interested to see what direction the program goes.


Agreed.


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## Poco1220

^ convenient editing huh?


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## Poco1220

They said the horse was brought in because the grooms had trouble bridling him and it would take about 10 minutes to get the job done. However in the end of the 10 mins they did get the bridle on (Whitaker refused to show how in front of the crowd). Parelli spent over 2 hours, a gum line twitch, a leg rope, and still no bridle on the horse. It would have been nice to see what went on behind the scenes to where they could suddenly bridle Catwalk the next day! Some more Parelli natural training? Or perhaps a couple quick shots to make a calmer horse?


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## Charis

Poco1220 said:


> ^ convenient editing huh?


Very. And not the video I wanted to share. I will try and find the other video again and post it, right now it's lost to the e-gods.


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## kitten_Val

Charis said:


> Between this and Linda's video earlier this year I'm interested to see what direction the program goes.


I'm sure it'll be successful. PA followers will post million reasons WHY he should do it this way (as it happened with LP video). I bet one of the reasons will be "because it's a stallion, you know, they are all dangerous and wanna kill you". 

My question though is WHO's horse was that? Pat's? And if not why the owner was OK about what's going on? Why noone would stand up and ask him why he does it? People are afraid or what?


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## Scoutrider

Poco1220 said:


> ^ convenient editing huh?


As unpleasant as it looked, I'd like to see a less-spliced version and better see how it escalated. Sometimes horse training ain't rainbows and bunnie-tails, but I'd like to see whether the twitching, etc. was a knee jerk or a last resort.


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## Charis

kitten_Val said:


> I'm sure it'll be successful. PA followers will post million reasons WHY he should do it this way (as it happened with LP video). I bet one of the reasons will be "because it's a stallion, you know, they are all dangerous and wanna kill you".
> 
> My question though is WHO's horse was that? Pat's? And if not why the owner was OK about what's going on? Why noone would stand up and ask him why he does it? People are afraid or what?


Robert Whitaker is the owner. The horse is the famous Catwalk.


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## Scoutrider

Interesting article on the hullabaloo. 

EVENTING NATION: VIDEO: Pat Parelli and Catwalk controversy at Express Eventing


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## kitten_Val

Scoutrider said:


> As unpleasant as it looked, I'd like to see a less-spliced version and better see how it escalated. Sometimes horse training ain't rainbows and bunnie-tails, but I'd like to see whether the twitching, etc. was a knee jerk or a last resort.


Scout, my horse was terrified after the intranasal injection I was stupid enough to let the vet to give without sedation. Up to the point vet couldn't come close at all. I ended up calling another vet, who also couldn't handle her at first. But he told me he uses twitching and have no problem with it, but he'd never NEVER use it on her. Because she's terrified and it'll make things much worse. He ended up moving her butt around for half-hour and voila he was able to give the shots. And he's not a BNT. But still can handle a bad situation.


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## kitten_Val

Charis said:


> Robert Whitaker is the owner. The horse is the famous Catwalk.


So I assume he was around enjoying the show... Sigh....


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## smrobs

:?I am not opposed to using a bit of force occasionally on a horse if the behavior warrants it (and a scared horse never warrants punishment anyway, correction yes, punishment no), so long as it is done only as much as needed and never out of anger. My biggest problem with the whole thing is how big of hypocrites the Parellis are. They preach about using understanding and love to communicate with your horse and never ever use force and most of the Kook-aid (not a typo) drinkers run around spouting off that you can train any horse to do anything you want without ever having to bump the halter or pop him with the lead rope and then you see crap like this. If you're gonna be harsh occasionally, fine, just don't go around thumping your own bible and then publicly violate every one of your ten commandments.


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## Scoutrider

^Well said, smrobs. WFT.


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## Eliz

Seriously. Sometimes you can't be all rainbows and butterflies, but in a public showing? C'mon. And I'm with the others, was this even a last resort??


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## ridergirl23

kitten_Val said:


> Scout, my horse was terrified after the intranasal injection I was stupid enough to let the vet to give without sedation. Up to the point vet couldn't come close at all. I ended up calling another vet, who also couldn't handle her at first. But he told me he uses twitching and have no problem with it, but he'd never NEVER use it on her. Because she's terrified and it'll make things much worse. He ended up moving her butt around for half-hour and voila he was able to give the shots. And he's not a BNT. But still can handle a bad situation.


exactly, when my horse had colic, the vet had to stick his arm where the sun dont shine :lol: 
so they twitched him just to be sure, you would hate to have your arm up an uncontrolable horses butt. lol. but my horse was calm and sedated, so it was the right time and place for it, when a hrose is scared or acting up, that is NOT the right time.

There is absalutly NO excuse for losing your temper at a horse. When i was little i did... i learned how forgiving these animals really are, it makes me cry just to think about it, because i yanked on the hrses mouth because he wasnt putting his head 'pretty like all the other hroses' if i had one wish, it would be that that never happened and i handled it in a different way. 


I also would LOVE to see where this goes...especially because i have bridled and touched the ears of an extremely head shy horse... all with a little patience and a little pressure on the halter to let her know what to do. good job Pat, a teenage girl taught a horse to do something better then you. and thousands of others have too. im impressed.


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## ridergirl23

smrobs said:


> :?i am not opposed to using a bit of force occasionally on a horse if the behavior warrants it (and a scared horse never warrants punishment anyway, correction yes, punishment no), so long as it is done only as much as needed and never out of anger. My biggest problem with the whole thing is how big of hypocrites the parellis are. They preach about using understanding and love to communicate with your horse and never ever use force and most of the kook-aid (not a typo) drinkers run around spouting off that you can train any horse to do anything you want without ever having to bump the halter or pop him with the lead rope and then you see crap like this. If you're gonna be harsh occasionally, fine, just don't go around thumping your own bible and then publicly violate every one of your ten commandments.


well said!!!!:d


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## Scoutrider

Eliz said:


> Seriously. Sometimes you can't be all rainbows and butterflies, but in a *public showing*? C'mon. And I'm with the others, was this even a last resort??


A public showing, especially one designed to exhibit what the "Parelli Ideals" achieve in an ingrained problem, I would expect _*far*_ more tact. Love, language, and leadership indeed. :? :roll:


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## corinowalk

I try not to watch anything Parelli. I dont agree with the training methods used and I think its all smoke and mirrors anyways. Thats just my crazy conspiracy theory though. No need to get into my psychosis! 

The video with linda is appauling. I was floored that anyone would let her treat an animal that way. Granted, she more harrassed him than hurt him...it was still really horrible to watch. After 2 mintues of that lead rope flipping around...wouldnt you try another approach?

The PP-Catwalk video, if you can call it that, is a true shame. All that leadership crap and he can't even grant a scared horse some patience? They say to go at *any* problem like you have alllll day to solve it and it usually takes just a few minutes. He snatched up that horse like he had a hot date in 20 minutes. Who knows, maybe he did. I heard accounts of this video before I saw it and it was pretty terrible. They said that linda flung herself out of her chair and ran over to help him hold the horse. I guess the whole thing ended with him laying the horse down and forcing the bridle on. At that point, not too many people were left in the crowd. I guess they weren't impressed.


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## Madiera

What is the point in posting this video? You show a 2 minute video and I am suppose to come up with a conclusion about Parelli and his techniques? Give me a break.


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## Eliz

I still cannot figure out what linda was trying to do with that horse! Imagine how confused the horse was! Linda is lucky that horse is quiet.

Madiera: We're not asking you to assess parelli's techniques as a whole, we're just pointing out that he is hypocritical in this video (love language leadership blah blah) and it causes us to wonder what happens behind closed doors. 

I don't think tying a horse's leg is the right language to use here.


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## ridergirl23

Madiera said:


> What is the point in posting this video? You show a 2 minute video and I am suppose to come up with a conclusion about Parelli and his techniques? Give me a break.


Thats not the point, Its just Parelli alsways brags about his techniques and everything... well, it kinda shows here its all smoke and mirrors (as someone else said!) 
Its just sharing interesting equine news.


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## PaintsPwn

OKAY. QUESTION OF THE DECADE:

Why the HECK would a 'professional' send off his own **** horse? -facepalm-

And doesn't his difficulty to bridle warrant some thought as to WHY this horse is this way? And WHY Robert would be OKAY with seeing his horse so badly treated - IF it was poorly treated. I'm not going to judge someone or something in under two minutes. That's foolish.

Setting times on training is idiocy. "Yep, I'll have him ready to go in thirty days!" Or even worse "LOL We'll have your headshy horse ready to bridle in TWO HOURS and you'll be set for life!" Head shyness is so touch and go, and it's curable, but it takes a lot of long, patient work. Not two hours worth.

I just don't get it, I guess why someone would try to put a horse through that - whether it's Pat Parelli, John Lyons, Clinton Anderson or any other money-stuffed BNT.


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## Eliz

^
Did you read the article scoutrider posted? It has more information about what happened.


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## ridergirl23

tehehe i giggled when they showed the part of them sharing a sandwich... YES, that DEFINITLY shows a strong bond!! i mean, when i share a sandwhich with a horse, geez, me andthat horse are perfect buddies after. I dunno, it just made me laugh. anyways, this is the video on the article scoutrider posted... they edited it. 





I wouldnt REALLY go far enough to call it abouse (then again, the video is very blurry) but I would call it just being WAY to rough with a horse, ESPECIALLY when you claim to be some kind of a horse whiperer keeping it natural.


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## Madiera

ridergirl23 said:


> Thats not the point, Its just Parelli alsways brags about his techniques and everything... well, it kinda shows here its all smoke and mirrors (as someone else said!)
> Its just sharing interesting equine news.


I don't think *everything* he does is smoke and mirrors. He has made some great contributions to the horse world.


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## ridergirl23

Madiera said:


> I don't think *everything* he does is smoke and mirrors. He has made some great contributions to the horse world.


of course not, but one thing that REALLY bugs me about him is he claims its his... uhhh NO parelli, YEARS before you were BORN people did that, you cant just come along and say you created all the techniques, cuz he did NOT.


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## Kiki

yeah I have never agreed with Parelli....Monty Roberts all the way for me as I have often thought that the fact you have to pay $50 for an orange stick which is classed as a peice of basic equipment....I was like yeah watever
But heres the thing. Yes we all preach to never loose your temper around horses but we have at least once right? And we have learnt from it. I mean one of the ones that sticks in my mind is trying to lunge Dana after rain. Dana hates being lunged at best of times and I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I WAS THINKING but I did it anyways. After she slipped once, Dana slammed the brakes on, whipped around and glared at me before putting her head down and walking out of the ring. I tried to to hold her back but she just kept walking and dragged me all the way back to the barn LOL....but I learnt my lesson. Horses dont take being bullied lightly and it will only be a matter of time before the Parellis realize that........


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## Madiera

ridergirl23 said:


> of course not, but one thing that REALLY bugs me about him is he claims its his... uhhh NO parelli, YEARS before you were BORN people did that, you cant just come along and say you created all the techniques, cuz he did NOT.


Nothing personal, but this is not true. Pat mentions several times throughout his videos how NH has been going on for many, many years and constantly gives credit to his teachers such as, Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom and Bill Dorrance, and Ronnie Willis. He by no means claims NH to be "his".


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## ridergirl23

Madiera said:


> Nothing personal, but this is not true. Pat mentions several times throughout his videos how NH has been going on for many, many years and constantly gives credit to his teachers such as, Ray Hunt, Troy Henry, Tom and Bill Dorrance, and Ronnie Willis. He by no means claims NH to be "his".


not NH but ive seen him say how some of his techniques are his, when ive seen plenty other trainers do them before anyone even knew his name.Maybe he was just a young smart alec trainer then, maybe hes learn now, but i have heard him a say few things.


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## wild_spot

The videos really aren't good enough quality or unedited enough to see what was really going on - At least on my Iphone. I can't even see the gum line or whatever he is supposedly using.

Whatever does happen in the video I will say this - I have no doubt that Pat is a good horseman. Sure, he may have lost his temper, or it may not have been the right place for that type of training, but I don't think it is anything terrible.

In regards to the program this training is hypocritical, but I don't think you can really call it abuse. My pony had to be twitched for the dentist weekend just gone, and she was so chilled out and relaxed afterward I swear she liked it!


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## Poco1220

Sure let's say Parelli was totally right to do this even though it took two people over two hours to get NOTHING accomplished. The problem here is what happens when one of his followers decides their horse is bridle shy and tries this method? They would be INCREDIBLY lucky for even one to walk out unscathed if not seriously injured/dead. This is not a method to be showing people who want to train like you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck

Poco1220 said:


> Sure let's say Parelli was totally right to do this even though it took two people over two hours to get NOTHING accomplished. The problem here is what happens when one of his followers decides their horse is bridle shy and tries this method? They would be INCREDIBLY lucky for even one to walk out unscathed if not seriously injured/dead. This is not a method to be showing people who want to train like you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't worry. I'm sure he put some sort of disclaimer that his followers are not at the proper Parelli training level and need to buy more DVDs and colored sticks before attempting such an advanced method.


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## ridergirl23

MyBoyPuck said:


> Don't worry. I'm sure he put some sort of disclaimer that his followers are not at the proper Parelli training level and need to buy more DVDs and colored sticks before attempting such an advanced method.


hahhahaha:rofl::clap: that just made my day.


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## Poco1220

Oh Puck I love you lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

I do think perhaps PP dos some things right. BUT, it has just gotten too commercial. Anyway, I actually laughed out loud watching LP in the second video-no sound-from a horses point of view. She truly looked SO silly-flailing the rope around, most of the time too long to really affect the horse at all-frankly, I think he was laughing at her as I was! She sure got NO respect from him, for sure...but then....she forgot her stick! lol
I do see a benefit for SOME of the techniques of many of the "NH" people.....but now I am a bit scared-I am taking my horse back to a "Parelli" barn for the winter-YIKES! THey are the only western around in a sea of H/J......and they DO know that I subscribe to mnay more ideas that JUST PP~ lol! After all-noone knows everything, and CERTAINLY not him or his "lovely" wife. )


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## spirithorse8

excuse me folks,
but I am sick and tired of any person who says the Parellis have some good things to offer...dang few and their demonstrations get more and more diluted.

What is with the 'forced' domination dance that those horses had to go through?

I know that I could have bridled that horse in about 30 to 45 min. and never caused him trauma. He would have felt me being the boss stallion with the slap of my cupped hand on his neck [represents being kicked by another of the herd] and the word no being used.....and that would have been all it took.
Been _learning_ _from horses_ for over forty years and what the Parellis and the other showmen of the clinic demonstrate is NOT horsemanship.

P.T. Barnum is proud of these clones of him.


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## kitten_Val

PaintsPwn said:


> And doesn't his difficulty to bridle warrant some thought as to WHY this horse is this way? And WHY Robert would be OKAY with seeing his horse so badly treated - IF it was poorly treated. I'm not going to judge someone or something in under two minutes. That's foolish.


I went to the clinic with my qh. CA-type trainer with certified assistant. Granted the trainer (and I used the guy before) while pretty firm had good timing and actually made horses to do the right things by moving their feet. Now the assistant was just OMG! Impatient, no timing what so ever, and when the horse didn't do what it should do (well, the horse was not asked correctly either, BTW) she violently used the stick to smack her neck. Guess what? The owner was standing right next to it nodding her head. Why? I don't know. The trainer was smart enough to actually take the lead from the assistant and asked horse to do the correct thing (quietly). But still I'd never send my horses there for the training. Because the assistant rides them too and who knows what happens when I'm not around.


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## kitten_Val

MyBoyPuck said:


> Don't worry. I'm sure he put some sort of disclaimer that his followers are not at the proper Parelli training level and need to buy more DVDs and colored sticks before attempting such an advanced method.


Lol! 

I agree with other poster though - it's really scary that all PA believers will think it's a right thing to do on their horses, and I'm really afraid it'll be a case for at least some people.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Whoever called this abuse is an idiot - I'll give the video that much. It's nothing I haven't done and will do again on an unruly horse.

My beef is with the Princess Parelli's preaching their garbage and then resorting to the EXACT same tactics they speak out against.

What game was this exercise part of? Or is this an admission that PARELLI DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERY HORSE?!

*spirithorse8* - You are JUST as bad as them. Honestly, just can it already. I'm sure we're all dually impressed about how a complete nobody knows better then the entire world, but maybe you could spend less time bad mouthing everyone else and more time actually training your wonder horses?

I dislike Parelli's because I find them to be the biggest hypocrites going, but you'd have to be half stupid to actually believe they haven't given ANYTHING of use and value to the equine community over the years.


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## Madiera

spirithorse8 said:


> excuse me folks,
> but I am sick and tired of any person who says the Parellis have some good things to offer...dang few and their demonstrations get more and more diluted
> 
> What is with the 'forced' domination dance that those horses had to go through?
> 
> I know that I could have bridled that horse in about 30 to 45 min. and never caused him trauma. He would have felt me being the boss stallion with the slap of my cupped hand on his neck [represents being kicked by another of the herd] and the word no being used.....and that would have been all it took.
> Been _learning_ _from horses_ for over forty years and what the Parellis and the other showmen of the clinic demonstrate is NOT horsemanship.
> 
> P.T. Barnum is proud of these clones of him.



I cannot stop giggling. So your telling us you are going to slap the horse with a cupped hand, tell it no, and whammo! Put the bridle on within 45 minutes and call it a day. That is pretty cool! 

I tend to believe if the horse was so easy to approach/deal with then Pat would have figured that out. And yes, I would have to say Parelli has numerous examples out there of true horsemanship and definitely has contributed to the horse world in positive ways. No doubt about it.


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## spirithorse8

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Whoever called this abuse is an idiot - I'll give the video that much. It's nothing I haven't done and will do again on an unruly horse.
> 
> My beef is with the Princess Parelli's preaching their garbage and then resorting to the EXACT same tactics they speak out against.
> 
> What game was this exercise part of? Or is this an admission that PARELLI DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERY HORSE?!
> 
> *spirithorse8* - You are JUST as bad as them. Honestly, just can it already. I'm sure we're all dually impressed about how a complete nobody knows better then the entire world, but maybe you could spend less time bad mouthing everyone else and more time actually training your wonder horses?
> 
> I dislike Parelli's because I find them to be the biggest hypocrites going, but you'd have to be half stupid to actually believe they haven't given ANYTHING of use and value to the equine community over the years.


Thank you for your response.

This is simply a thread to air how one feels regarding the presentations by the Parellis. You can chide me for my position and that is ok. I am simply tired of having these kinds of individuals create such hoopla that good trainer/clinicians like Mr. Rieman and others who are horseman actually have a tough time attracting the attention they deserve.

When any individual places themselves in the public eye, makes representations and then proceeds to act in opposition to those presentations, that individual discounts themselves as being knowledgable.

The greatest thing the clinic showmenship people have done is make people aware of the horse and thus people begin to seek knowledge.

You do not know if I am a nobody and thats ok. You do not know me, have never schooled with me.

As for my wonder HORSE, she is being schooled, not trained, on a regular basis. The time shall come when she is ready for her debute and then she shall demonstrate a true relationship. I am merely a coordinater of our actions, she is my partner. NO force or constraints, no gimmicks, and no spurs are used to push her around.


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## Eliz

spirithorse8 said:


> As for my wonder HORSE, she is being schooled, not trained, on a regular basis. The time shall come when she is ready for her debute and then she shall demonstrate a true relationship. I am merely a coordinater of our actions, she is my partner. NO force or constraints, no gimmicks, and no spurs are used to push her around.


What the heck. You will slap a horse with a cupped hand but you're a spur nazi? Spurs are useful tools! I have a QH that does NOT want to move off of leg pressure, that is until I show him that spur. Then the next time, he's an angel with the slightest leg tightening.

Calling parelli abusive for tying a leg then turning around saying you'll hit a horse THEN turning around AGAIN and saying you don't use spurs is a big hypocritical mess!

MM, I always appreciate your opinions, and you're completely right. There is nothing wrong with tying a horse (it was a bad situation to do it IMO) but parelli can't preach about LLL, then completely contradict themselves.

I can't stand Linda, but I do agree that deep deep down Pat is a good horseman.


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## Fluffy Pony

I won't be surprised if they start banning video cameras and photos from their clincs >.>


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## MaggiStar

Kiki i just couldnt stop laughing at the image of your horse walking you out of the arena hahahaha!!

I dont believe this is abuse however i think it goes against everything they have ever thought and had people buy inot which is wrong IMO


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## franknbeans

Eliz said:


> What the heck. You will slap a horse with a cupped hand but you're a spur nazi? Spurs are useful tools! I have a QH that does NOT want to move off of leg pressure, that is until I show him that spur. Then the next time, he's an angel with the slightest leg tightening.
> 
> Calling parelli abusive for tying a leg then turning around saying you'll hit a horse THEN turning around AGAIN and saying you don't use spurs is a big hypocritical mess!
> 
> MM, I always appreciate your opinions, and you're completely right. There is nothing wrong with tying a horse (it was a bad situation to do it IMO) but parelli can't preach about LLL, then completely contradict themselves.
> 
> I can't stand Linda, but I do agree that deep deep down Pat is a good horseman.


 
Fyi-using a CUPPED hand is NOT the same as hitting. Try it on yourself. It gets a reaction because of the SOUND. 

I would agree that this approach is not what I would do, but to call it abuse is a bit extreme, IMO. And, it was a poor choice of settings, for sure. 

I also do NOT like LP, I think she is an idiot. But, she is married to a guy who just MAY know something, and like most trainers, NH or not, have something of use to offer. All horses react differently, and, it is always useful to have many ideas for handling any situation. What will work on one, may not on another.


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## Poco1220

I agree they will most likely not allow video/photos anymore and it wouldn't surprise me. However most of these appear to be off phones which leads me to wonder if they already don't allow videos/cameras for this exact reason?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

I do believe video cameras are already not allowed. People use their phones and I am sure they can not say 'no phones' allowed.


If you go to the Parelli face book page about this you will laugh your head off as the loyal followers drool an PPs feet and say how he was wonderful at this exposition and he was doing what the horse needed and all that stuff.


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## Gidji

Macabre, I have a lot of respect for you on this forum and this is by no means a personal attack, but I think sometimes your opinions are a bit blunt and rude.

I think some methods of Parelli are great, however, I think thats it become too commercial. I haven't seen the video of the abuse because my computer wants to be dumb, but it sounds like down right abuse to me. A well place hit and a no should be enough to put any horse in its place. Heck, even your body language should be enough.


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## kitten_Val

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Whoever called this abuse is an idiot - I'll give the video that much. It's nothing I haven't done and will do again on an unruly horse.


MM, I don't think anyone called it abuse (although I didn't go through all responses), but twitch + leg restriction (the gadgets, NOT training) is the last resort to deal with unruly horse, much less on public when you actually teach people how to deal with/train the horse. To me horse didn't look unruly or bad or even scared in the beginning of the video. The whole situation is the perfect example of true forcing horse into submission, not teaching or oversmarting it.


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## Alwaysbehind

kitten_Val said:


> The whole situation is the perfect example of true forcing horse into submission, not teaching or oversmarting it.


I have to agree. And the irony is that most of the die hard followers are quick to say how evil the rest of us because force our horses to do things.


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## kitten_Val

Fluffy Pony said:


> I won't be surprised if they start banning video cameras and photos from their clincs >.>


That made me laugh. :lol: You may be very well correct about it coming next!


----------



## kitten_Val

Alwaysbehind said:


> *I do believe video cameras are already not allowed. *People use their phones and I am sure they can not say 'no phones' allowed.
> 
> 
> If you go to the Parelli face book page about this you will laugh your head off as the loyal followers drool an PPs feet and say how he was wonderful at this exposition and he was doing what the horse needed and all that stuff.


OMG! Now THAT is very funny indeed. :lol: BTW, I know turned-on cell phones are not allowed at some events for that particular reason, but so far not on "horsey" events. Well... May be it's a next step!


----------



## Speed Racer

The Pepperonis are all about clamping down on what actually happened, and giving some cleaned up, sanitized version to their minions. 

It's been quite awhile since they've allowed video cameras into their sessions, probably because they don't want people showing what really goes on when the Mustachioed One and his Bitter Half 'train' a horse. Plus, then they can't SELL an extremely expensive, edited version on DVD to their loyal followers if it's out there on the interwebz for free.

I saw the unedited videos. Horrible abuse? Not really, but certainly completely against all the 'sunshine, butterflies, rainbows, teach your horsie with lurve and respect, and don't forget to ASK him' garbage they've been shoving down everyone's throats all these years.

Apparently, for the Pepperonis it's all about do as I_ say_, and not as I _do_.

None of this surprises me. I've known for years they're full of crap, and are riding this gravy train as far as it will take them. 

I salute them for their ability to blind the rubes with smoke and mirrors, and I have no problem with people wanting to make a buck, but their whole circus reminds me of nothing more than those TV evangelists who prey on the old, innocent, and stupid.


----------



## sarahver

Soon to be announced, new to the Pat Parelli range: The all new fantastical.... TWITCH. Never seen before, this amazing gadget will not only subdue your unruly horse, if you flip it around, you can use the other end to beat him with it!!! Priced at only 249.95 + postage and handling.

But wait, there's more! Order now and recieve your free LEG RESTRAINT!!!! Demonstrate your unique partnership with your horse by tying a leg to his head, works in two ways - horse stands still to be handled whilst simultaneously lowering his head to be bridled..... AMAZING!!! Never been seen before and only available thanks to the ingenious Pat and Linda Parelli, keep it natural guys.


----------



## franknbeans

:rofl::rofl::rofl: ^^^^ Too funny!


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> I salute them for their ability to blind the rubes with smoke and mirrors, and I have no problem with people wanting to make a buck, but their whole circus reminds me of nothing more than those TV evangelists who prey on the old, innocent, and stupid.



You mean, like those people who claim to have their sense of smell given to them when they have never been able to smell anything in their whole lives but when they shove some scented cloth under their nose they can say that they smell banana? Hmmm, one would think if you have never smelled anything that you would not know what a banana smells like, no?

But I agree, that is just what the whole PNH thing is like.


----------



## speedy da fish

wow i nearly went to this fest, glad i didnt...


----------



## Speed Racer

Speedy, you want to know what really frosts my tuna? The people like _you_ who actually use and believe in the program, and who have made some real progress with their horses despite the ridiculous aspects. That tells me far more about _your_ training abilities, than how good the Pepperoni methods are.

The Parellis don't buy into what they're selling, but as long as the rest of you do they'll continue to market it, and tell whoever will listen that those of us who aren't drinking the kool-aid are evil and abusive, and are merely unenlightened heathens.

There are people on this BB who sincerely believe all that clap-trap, and all I can do is shake my head and hope they wake up sooner rather than later.


----------



## farmpony84

Pepporonis! ****!!!! I mean, not very nice Speed... Not nice at all.

That video was only about 2 minutes of a 2 hour session and spliced together by someone so it's hard to tell what really went on. I have so many things I want to say and don't know how to put it all together so here gos...

The Parellis are marketing geniouses. They have always focused on those with minimal experience. It's easy to gain a following when you are focusing on the ignorant. This is my honost opinion. The Parelli program is also based on a tried and true method. Call it natural horsemanship, call it traditional training, I call it common sense. It's been around since people began riding horses. 

The thing about these training sessions is that when you are moving a horse along that quickly, you are bound to meet resistence and you are bound to use some force. This horse obviously has issues that have been around for a while, I'm thinking a 2 hour session was not the correct approach. Just my opinion...

I can't defend the video but I can't really comment on it without seeing it in it's entirety. I'm not a Parelli fan at all, but I can't bash them based on the 2 minute video I saw. Although, I was definitely not impressed. At all.


----------



## RogueMare

****@ this whole thread. 

I've never gotten into PP and LP's load of bullspit. But honestly. What works for one horse, doesn't always work for the next. He might have some great ideas, but charging an arm and a leg for a stupid orange stick? And to the idiots that buy it, they're just as bad... seriously. It may not have been the right time or place to do what he did, but I don't see abuse in that video. I guess PP and LP need to just cut out the rainbows and sunshine, its horsemanship not a "My daddy can beat up your daddy" war... And LP needs to get the cob outta her rear end.


----------



## Speed Racer

Farmpony, I can't take credit for the Pepperoni name. It was coined by someone else, somewhere else. 

How many of these unedited videos do we need to see, before people start backing away from what the Parellis are trying to shove down their throats?

Linda with her 'whap, whap, CLUNK' video, and now this one. Seriously folks, these are _not_ aberrations. They're actually how the Ps train horses when the cameras aren't on them.

As I said, I don't care if people want to make a buck. I just think when a training style garners religious cult status, and its leaders are defended even when all evidence points to them not following their own scripture, um, I mean_ methods_, then it's gone beyond silly and right into dangerous.

Fanatics of any kind frighten me, and the more rabid PP followers are nothing more than brainwashed, religious fanatics.


----------



## RogueMare

^^ Amen Speed


----------



## Alwaysbehind

What Speedy said.


Rogue, I love your avatar.


----------



## speedy da fish

Speed Racer said:


> Speedy, you want to know what really frosts my tuna? The people like _you_ who actually use and believe in the program, and who have made some real progress with their horses despite the ridiculous aspects. That tells me far more about _your_ training abilities, than how good the Pepperoni methods are.
> 
> The Parellis don't buy into what they're selling, but as long as the rest of you do they'll continue to market it, and tell whoever will listen that those of us who aren't drinking the kool-aid are evil and abusive, and are merely unenlightened heathens.
> 
> There are people on this BB who sincerely believe all that clap-trap, and all I can do is shake my head and hope they wake up sooner rather than later.


sorry was that REALLY supposed to be aimed at me? from what i said?


----------



## Speed Racer

speedy da fish said:


> sorry was that REALLY supposed to be aimed at me? from what i said?


Only the first part, dear.

I don't think of you as a PP fanatic. 

You're the type of person who apparently has an innate ability with horses and can work with the methods given, even though some of them are counter productive.

Really, it was meant as a compliment. I wasn't thinking of you when I said PP fanatic. I had someone else in mind entirely.


----------



## Madiera

This is absolutely hilarious. The entire thread. To the point where forum members are indirectly bashing others for the way they chose to train their horses. I have to say...I am someone who's trying to see/learn both sides. You lose me when you start to refer to people/other forum members as "stupid, idiots, ignorant". Something tells me, you are the type of people I wouldn't let near any of my horses.


----------



## kitten_Val

speedy da fish said:


> sorry was that REALLY supposed to be aimed at me? from what i said?


Actually what SR said did sound like a compliment rather than bashing.


----------



## Speed Racer

Madiera said:


> Something tells me, you are the type of people I wouldn't let near any of my horses.



That's okay sweetie, I have enough on my hands with 3 of my own. 

As long as your horses can behave themselves around mine, I don't care what methods you use to train 'em. Just make sure they're _trained_.


----------



## speedy da fish

what the 'wow, i nearly went' part...

i was going to see the SJ and indoor x country, i know nothing about PP  but thought 'what the heck, it may be good' obviously it wasnt what it is cracked up to be.

(if this is from the Royal Festival of the Horse that im thinking of)


----------



## kitten_Val

Madiera said:


> This is absolutely hilarious. The entire thread. To the point where forum members are indirectly bashing others for the way they chose to train their horses. I have to say...I am someone who's trying to see/learn both sides. You lose me when you start to refer to people/other forum members as "stupid, idiots, ignorant". Something tells me, you are the type of people I wouldn't let near any of my horses.


I don't think people are idiots or ignorant based on how they train (given it's not abuse). However people complaining they don't have money to pay for the trainer or good saddle, but paying again and again $$$ for over-expensive stuff Parelli (or whoever else out of BNT) is selling are not extremely smart IMO.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Madiera said:


> To the point where forum members are indirectly bashing others for the way they chose to train their horses.


I do believe that it was more of a compliment to SpeedyFish's training ability than anything else.



And for the record, when I posted that I agree with Speedy, I meant Speedracer. I forgot we had a Speedy too. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Speed Racer

Speedy, my apologies. Why did I think you used PNH? I must be thinking of someone else. 

In any case, whoever it is I'm thinking of uses PNH and has actually made good progress with her animal. She also isn't a rabid PP follower, just takes what she needs from the methods and ignores all the rest.

Same as any of us who have been around horses long enough. Use the good and ignore the bad.


----------



## Madiera

Speed Racer said:


> That's okay sweetie, I have enough on my hands with 3 of my own.
> 
> "Sweetie". LOL! Is this for real! Are you really referring to me as "sweetie"?


----------



## speedy da fish

thats ok! i was just confused not offended!

Anyway all these methods will have the same sort of demons lurking beneath. They seem to aim their advertising at people that have 'problem horse' and make them pay ridiculous amounts of money for books and DVDs, kind of like they are joining one of those cults... I think every horse needs a different method of training, I bet even PP adjusts his methods for different horses, even though it may be subconsciously. So are set out plans really going to work?


----------



## Speed Racer

Madiera said:


> "Sweetie". LOL! Is this for real! Are you really referring to me as "sweetie"?


Goodness, are you _looking_ for a reason to be offended?_ Well bless your heart.

_Speedy, that's the problem with so many of the Step A through Step Z programs. They use a 'one size fits all' approach, and anyone who knows horses is aware that nothing will work for every horse, every time.


----------



## GreyRay

haha... "Natural Hormanship"... Not that I have anything against the training methods, I mean they are training methods that have been used for a long time successfully. But the hole "love" thing these people use to market their over-prised [email protected] is just amusing! 

Oh yes, I feel how much my horse loves me for spending all my money on sticks and rope halters rather than his hey bales...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## savvylover112

I myself do use Parelli not every part I see of it. I use some of my own methods and whatever works for my horse. I was not at the festival so I have not seen what really happened yes there is a 2 minute video but that is not enough to comment on really. I have heard extreme accounts of what happened from both sides as I am in the Parelli savvy club just for my good friends on there now and have heard extreme fanatics talk about it and extreme haters talk about it. I do not believe it was outright abuse, I believe Pat lost his cool and did wrong, wrong place, not enough time, put under pressure made him act like this (although it is not the first time Pat has been seen to do something like this at one of "his" events) I will not "leave" the program because of it because I am not just following the program as I have said. One thing I do "wrong" according to Parelli is competing while I am not higher than level 3 but I was competing before Parelli and will continue to compete during Parelli. 

To the people who say they want the Parelli fanatics to see the light and walk away from the program, very high level students of Parelli have in the past couple of days left the program and will continue using what they have learnt before but feel they cannot follow it anymore. 

Well that's all I really have to say I will not in any way defend Pat Parelli as I do not feel the need to defend him. He can defend himself if he feels the need which he won't. He probably won't release any statement even though his followers are asking for it.

Shauna


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## speedy da fish

savvylover112 said:


> I was not at the festival so I have not seen what really happened yes there is a 2 minute video but that is not enough to comment on really.


Very good point. The owner of the video may have even set out on purpose to edit the film to make PP look bad... It worked


----------



## Speed Racer

Savvy, it's you I was thinking of when I addressed Speedy. Darn this old lady memory! 

Yes, as any good horse person, you take what you can use and ignore the rest.

I have no quibble with anyone who uses PNH the way you do. After all, everyone who successfully rides/shows their animals incorporates different methods to get a final, finished result.

It's the people who denigrate others for not following _their_ methods exclusively -cough- Parelli fanatics -cough- that I can't stomach.


----------



## Eliz

I read somewhere (maybe it that article someone posted?) that the video was from a phone so I'm thinking it was edited because some phones only take like 15 second clips at a time? I'm not sure, but anyone can see it's not edited for the benefit of PP.

Anyone who has been around horses for a while knows that you cannot treat every horse with the same method, especially on an A through Z program. People with horse sense tend to take methods from everywhere they've learned and create a mixture that works for them and the particular horse. We all interact with horses differently, so something that works for me may not work for you.

As much as I hate to admit it, Parelli DOES have some good info. You just have to be smart enough to pick it out and not be one of those Parelli r-tards. (What kind of name is "carrot stick" anyways??)

I could never spend that much money on parelli garb befor I took my horse to a dang trainer.


----------



## Speed Racer

speedy da fish said:


> Very good point. The owner of the video may have even set out on purpose to edit the film to make PP look bad... It worked


Um, no. I don't think this person needed to edit the video to make PP look bad. He did that all by himself.


----------



## Fluffy Pony

As for the horrible editing job to make the PPs look worse. Here is another fourm who have people talking how it seem to get 'better' in the end after the people who were filming the thing left.... 

Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside - Horse and Hound Forums

I won't judge on anything since I wasn't there and haven't seen the whole thing in a good quality film. Though I do believe PPs methods can get a bit too 'abusive' with the whack whack bump crap they like to do. Their methods can be done right but it takes months for a horse to learn how to do it properly... not in 5 minutes...


----------



## kitten_Val

Fluffy Pony said:


> Parelli Demo on robert Whittakers stallion Stonleigh Friday 9th...Anybody else bside - Horse and Hound Forums


I wish they'd release the complete video. Unless the observer intentionally lies it sounds even worse than video itself.

BTW, this is the PA statement  

"Our challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight at the Royal Featival of The Horse demo. Catwalk, an extremely Left-Brain stallion showed us his wonderful spirit and demonstrated that his unwillingness to bridle hasn't been created during the 8 weeks that Robert Whitaker has owned him but is clearly due to many years of fear of being bridled due to the lack of a basic foundation training. 


We ran 45 minutes over and a couple of folks were upset at what they think they saw, saying they may post on YouTube. We all have nothing to worry about except misunderstanding. Pat stopped at an appropriate time in the training process when he saw a breakthrough and preserved Catwalk's dignity, which is more important than getting the bridle on tonight."


----------



## savvylover112

Speed Racer said:


> Savvy, it's you I was thinking of when I addressed Speedy. Darn this old lady memory!
> 
> Yes, as any good horse person, you take what you can use and ignore the rest.
> 
> I have no quibble with anyone who uses PNH the way you do. After all, everyone who successfully rides/shows their animals incorporates different methods to get a final, finished result.
> 
> It's the people who denigrate others for not following _their_ methods exclusively -cough- Parelli fanatics -cough- that I can't stomach.


Oh didn't realise you were talking about me and thank you for the compliment then Speed Racer  

Yep others force methods and will only follow the program I do work with horses that are young with the program but only to a certain extent. 

Oh and after seeing the link to horse and hound forum I had seen it before in the savvy club but you guys are a lot more civalized and can see that it isn't really abuse. Also I have been talking to someone who was there at the vet inspection. I know for a fact that there was never another demo planned with this horse because working with him on the Friday was a last minute thing. They were still looking for demo horses on the day before the demo with him. The vet said that Catwalk was fine and Pat continued to work with him on the Saturday but not in a demo because they had not planned this and they already had a demo horse for the Saturday.

Shauna


----------



## riccil0ve

I rather like this thread. =]

This is a carrot stick.










If you have to sell equipment to accomplish anything with your horse, what good are you really? You need a cattle prod [because that's what it is] to get your horse to move? I use a dressage whip when necessary, but most days, I can get my filly to side step using my sprit fingers.

I cannot, EVER, find it acceptable to tie a horse down or twitch it because it won't take a bridle. I've worked with hard to bridle horses, and it's all about finding the reason WHY they won't take it. One was [incorrectly] ear-twitched all the time, one just hated it when the bit bashed into his teeth. Then you proceed accordingly. In all honesty, I doubt Catwalk needed more than two hours to get a bridle on. Maybe I'm just feeling cocky, but it seems the situation was made a mountain out of mole hill. Just put the horse's bridle on. 

The other video with the woman [Linda was it?] was the biggest piece of UNhorsemanship material I've ever seen. I watched her smack that horse with the rope when it did nothing to deserve it but turn it's head a fraction of an inch. That was a disgusting video. I've never treated a horse like that, and I can find no excuse for it.

I just find training horses to be so simple, and yet so many "trainers" appear to make it so hard. 

That being said, I don't mean to bash Parelli in it's entirety. Like it's been mentioned, I'm sure he's come up with some valuable, useful techniques that have done wonders for many a horse and rider. But he still has much to learn.


----------



## AngelWithoutWings54

Hm. This is "Natural Horsemanship"? In the wild, do horses tie up each other's legs? Do they twitch each other in the wild, too? Um, NO! I've never been a Parelli fan, but I've always respected him. This took it a bit too far though, and I had to send him an e-mail regarding my displeasure with this...

IT IS DISGUSTING that a man who everyone admires and thinks to be a fantastic horseman could do this to a horse who was obviously confused and extremely head shy.


----------



## savvylover112

AngelWithoutWings54 said:


> Hm. This is "Natural Horsemanship"? In the wild, do horses tie up each other's legs? Do they twitch each other in the wild, too? Um, NO! I've never been a Parelli fan, but I've always respected him. This took it a bit too far though, and I had to send him an e-mail regarding my displeasure with this...
> 
> IT IS DISGUSTING that a man who everyone admires and thinks to be a fantastic horseman could do this to a horse who was obviously confused and extremely head shy.


First of all you will not get a reply from them, they tend to ignore most emails explaining disappointments or things that are wrong. There have been plans for things in the savvy club and when we ask about them we get no response someone in the savvy club emailed about the situation of getting no replies to any emails she asked why such silence and that this situation needs to be fixed the response was "could you please refer to the situation you are talking about?" So you won't get a reply to that.

I don't believe the horse was scared or anything like that not a bead of sweat was on him after two hours of this so he was not scared or stressed but I do agree with you that he was confused.

Shauna


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## SorrelHorse

-points to below post-

double posted on accident =/


----------



## SorrelHorse

I will agree that Pat could use a lot of improvement, but nearly all if his methods /do/ work. I've tried methods from many a trainer....Every one has flaws, every one has working methods.

I, however, am not a Parelli fan. I wouldn't follow him for this reason, but I am taking bits and pieces to add to my training library next to all the others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz

There is a time and a place for a twitch, and I don't think a training demo about love language and leadership is either.

Twitches are useful tools in the hand of someone who knows what their doing. I'm sure Pat knows how to use a twitch correctly, but as I've said before it is highly hypocritical to use it when you're trying to teach LLL.


----------



## LoveStory10

I have zero experience with Parelli, I had never even heard of it before I joined this forum. So I am utterly clueless. May I please ask; can someone please tell me what that lady was trying to achieve with the horse in the second video posted?


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## Eliz

^
Yeah, if anyone has a slight clue at what linda was doing, I'm all ears!

By the way lovestory, your siggy is from a poem that Robert Frost wrote, its not from eclipse (though I don't doubt it was quoted in the movie/book)


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## savvylover112

It was on the first page of Eclipse before the book actually started and it says the title of the poem Fire and Ice and below says it is by Robert Frost. 
(So off topic lol) 

Shauna


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## Eliz

^
Like I said, its by Robert Frost. LOL I think in the movie (which sucked) Bella quoted it as well


----------



## Lottii

I have been reading this post (between sorting out horses/dog and the powercuts with the current thunderstorm!) and thought I might add my two penneth worth  
I would not class what happened as abuse, but I would not class it as appropreite to the horses situation (Parelli, at a demonstration or anything else!). It was not what the horse needed at the time.
Then to move on the the fact it was Parelli, it happened at a demonstration trying to show the Parelli methods, focused of the LLL, as explained before. Certainly a case of the wrong thing at the wrong time! Why on earth PP felt it was right to treat the horse like that, in front of a public hoping to see him explaining how natural and kind his methods are, I do not know!

Then on to the offtopicness - it is written at the start of Eclipse, and Bella quotes part of it in the film  I knew the poem before, from a short story by L.J. Smith (her books Night World have surprising similarity to Twilight, but were written 10 years before), you might like them if you like Twilight


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## Alwaysbehind

How much trouble do people suppose good 'ol Pat gets in with his lovely wifey, Linda, after doing something like this?

:twisted:

I can just imagine her yelling at him about lost revenue, etc.


----------



## Fluffy Pony

> It was not what the horse needed at the time.


I totally agree. Parreli has gotten to the point of fast and quick to get their money... they need to slow down and stop when they get a positive reaction from the horse. Even if that is less then five minutes into working with the horse. 

Wasn't that an original goal of theirs before they went all crazy $$$ with their stuff?


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## Speed Racer

She can't do much yelling, Always. She was there yanking on that rope tied around the horse's foot for all it was worth.

Besides, their brain dead minions have already decided that we, the nonbelievers, just didn't 'understand what we were seeing'. :-x

Never mind that the majority of people who haven't indulged in the kool-aid know _exactly_ what it was that we saw.

So no worries about the Parelli's income. Their cultists, um _followers_, will continue to throw money at them as usual.


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## Alwaysbehind

Yes, but she did not start it.

She just tried to help him fix the mess he made. (I am sure that is how her bleached brain works.)


You used the wrong word Speed. We do not have enough Savvy to understand these advanced techniques.


----------



## Speed Racer

Y'know, I didn't _used_ to hate the words 'savvy' or 'natural horsemanship'.

All that has changed, thanks to the Pepperonis.

I get all stabby when I hear or read them now.


----------



## Jolly Badger

sarahver said:


> Soon to be announced, new to the Pat Parelli range: The all new fantastical.... TWITCH. Never seen before, this amazing gadget will not only subdue your unruly horse, if you flip it around, you can use the other end to beat him with it!!! Priced at only 249.95 + postage and handling.
> 
> But wait, there's more! Order now and recieve your free LEG RESTRAINT!!!! Demonstrate your unique partnership with your horse by tying a leg to his head, works in two ways - horse stands still to be handled whilst simultaneously lowering his head to be bridled..... AMAZING!!! Never been seen before and only available thanks to the ingenious Pat and Linda Parelli, keep it natural guys.


No no no. . .you've got it all wrong!

According to a Parellite who actually attended the event in the UK and described it on the Horse and Hound forums, PP didn't use a "twitch" on Catwalk - it was a "calmer." Sure, it was a thin string run across the gumline to control the horse. . .but how dare anyone call it a TWITCH?! Don't you know that horse-training equipment magically changes names when in the hands of the Mustachioed One?

You have to remember that Parelli is so above and beyond what we mere mortals can comprehend. . .and we aren't nearly savvy enough to understand his methods because we have not shelled out enough money to buy our way up the levels.

Therefore, it is out of pure ignorance when we, the unenlightened, point out that the products he sells are nothing more than over-priced items with "fluffy" names. 

Does Parelli sell a lunge whip? Nooooo. . .because whips are BAD, cruel instruments of torture. . .whips are things used by the non-savvy horse-abusing people. However, when coated in orange paint, sold for $60 and used to "play games" with a horse (IOW, pester the personality out of them), it becomes a Carrot Stick! 

And so, a twitch in the hands of a Parelli devotee becomes a Calmer.:lol:

Apparently, the majority of the uproar was about Day 1 of the demonstration. Conveniently, the Parelli's video showed less than ten seconds of what witnesses say went on for more than _two hours_. 

I find it especially interesting to see the conflicting reports between Parelli's version of the event and the majority of people who witnessed it. Typical of Parelli - they said many people were upset by "what they think they saw." Apparently, a lot of people saw that the emperor has no clothes (again), but many more (PP included) still won't admit he's got NOTHING ON.

The major detail being the fact that a veterinarian examined the stallion after the first evening's demonstration and found a fresh lesion in Catwalk's mouth. As a result, Catwalk was not actually used for further "official" demonstrations at the event.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

I am with you on that one, Speed.

I as reading some of the followers comments about how wonderful Pat was and I got so tired of the word savvy by the third or fourth post. Everyone of them uses it multiple times in their comments. Scream.


----------



## Scoutrider

Speed Racer said:


> Y'know, I didn't _used_ to hate the words 'savvy' or 'natural horsemanship'.
> 
> All that has changed, thanks to the Pepperonis.
> 
> I get all stabby when I hear or read them now.


I've started forcing myself to think of Captain Jack Sparrow when I hear the word "Savvy". It helps a bit. :lol:

I had a thought at work this morning... Love, Language, and Leadership? Try Quiet Dignity and Grace, Mr. P. :wink: *trots off to find _Young Frankenstein_*


----------



## savvylover112

Jolly Badger said:


> The major detail being the fact that a veterinarian examined the stallion after the first evening's demonstration and found a fresh lesion in Catwalk's mouth. As a result, Catwalk was not actually used for further "official" demonstrations at the event.


Just had to comment on this only three people other than the vet was at the vet inspection. People on horse and hound say they were there though. There was no further demonstrations planned for Catwalk at the festival of the horse.

Shauna


----------



## tempest

I shouldn't be laughing, but what Jolly Badger said, was completely hilarious.


----------



## Eliz

I am addicted to this thread.
It's too great! ****


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Gotta say... I've worked with some difficult horses... some of them even didn't want their ears touched (lol)... never had to resort to the methods PP has demonstrated in the original video. Talk about taking a tense, nervous horse and making it more so. 

Horses cannot learn when they are stressed out... nobody can. 

I don't know if I'd call it "abuse", but it certainly doesn't appear like good horsemanship to me either.


----------



## mayfieldk

Just a few things...

Don't expect the owner to jump in on the horse's behalf. He said he could get the horse bridled, but he wasn't going to show anyone how. Leads me to believe it wasn't too pleasant...

It was a gum line twitch as well, not a normal twitch. And apparently it was in the horse's mouth for, at least, over 45 minutes. A little excessive?

There was a point where the horse broke free and ran around... and another point when he fell because of the ropes on his legs.

There were several big NH people there watching who had made accounts of what they saw... none of them liked it.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

mayfieldk said:


> There were several big NH people there watching who had made accounts of what they saw... none of them liked it.


Where are said accounts of these big NH people? Would be an interesting read.


----------



## kevinshorses

I'm going to once again defend Pat Parreli and his methods. I would bet that the reason he didn't put the horse back and say "let's try a different one" is that it would ruin a reputation that he has worked very hard to build and the horse would not get any help at all. Sometimes it's not pretty to fix problems like this. I think the outrage and disgust would be better directed toward the owners that allowed the problems to develop in the first place.


----------



## kevinshorses

mayfieldk said:


> There were several big NH people there watching who had made accounts of what they saw... none of them liked it.


How big were these NH people? I'm 6'8 and 280 and I didn't see too many problems besides poor video quality.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Kevin, I do not think most people are so upset about the technique not being pretty as they are upset about someone who preaches that you must ask your horse and you must be nice and all that crap would do this at a public expo.

Yes, most of us know that some training issues have to be dealt with in a not so pretty way.

Though I do not think taking the bridle easily needs to be dealt with this way, I admit it.


----------



## Speed Racer

Kevin, if he was a regular trainer who wasn't always spouting off about 'respect', 'love', and ASKING a horse to do something, we wouldn't be so hard on him.

As it is, he's hoist on his own petard. Nothing I saw was horribly abusive, but it was completely _against_ everything he's preached about lo these many years.

If he wants to use those methods, I'm okay with it. He just needs to STFU about how his ways are so much better than all the 'abusive' ones out there, because I didn't see anything so 'savvy' or 'respectful' about what he was doing.

All I saw was someone trying to force their will onto an obviously recalcitrant horse.

I can get a bridle shy horse to accept the bit with no force or trauma. If Parelli is so wonderful, why couldn't he have figured out a way to do the same? I'm far from being some wunderkind trainer, as he claims to be.


----------



## goldilockz

kevinshorses said:


> I'm going to once again defend Pat Parreli and his methods. I would bet that the reason he didn't put the horse back and say "let's try a different one" is that it would ruin a reputation that he has worked very hard to build and the horse would not get any help at all. Sometimes it's not pretty to fix problems like this. I think the outrage and disgust would be better directed toward the owners that allowed the problems to develop in the first place.


Putting a horse back and getting another to demonstrate with would have done far less damage to his reputation than what is shown in the videos, IMO. And the outrage and disgust, if you ask me, is quite properly directed at the man who caused the pain and distress that the horse went through. Passing the blame on to someone who wasn't in the arena with the horse is just silly.


----------



## mayfieldk

By big I meant big into it, my bad if it came off sounding different.

Its on the UK board horse and hound? Something like that. Read it and can't remember to get back to it! lol

Anyone have the quote where PP said using a twitch was akin to rape and he would NEVER use one?


----------



## Ridehorses99

I just have to comment on another supposed incident that happened at a Parelli demonstration in Texas, which I attended. A guest horse (who would not load in a trailer) was worked with for about 15 minutes and then the seminar broke for lunch. A friend of mine was in the building complex but not attending the seminar. He walked through one of the remote barns and said he saw this man absolutely wailing/beating on a horse trying to get the horse into a trailer. My friend actually stopped to ask if they needed any help and found out if was PP working this horse during our lunch break. Needless to say, after the lunch break, PP brought the horse back out and miraculously the horse nervously jumped into the trailer. 
I didn't think too much about my friend's account of the incident as I originally thought he may have sensationalized the events, but I'm not so sure my friend wasn't telling the absolute truth.


----------



## kevinshorses

goldilockz said:


> Putting a horse back and getting another to demonstrate with would have done far less damage to his reputation than what is shown in the videos, IMO. And the outrage and disgust, if you ask me, is quite properly directed at the man who caused the pain and distress that the horse went through. Passing the blame on to someone who wasn't in the arena with the horse is just silly.


Most of the time change is accompanied by pain and distress. The more deep seated the issue the more pain and distress comes with it. If the video was more clear I could comment on what they were actually doing but I didn't see anything abusive. As far as blaming the owners, I think they are the only ones to blame. Had they treated the horse properly and trained him properly then he wouldn't have been in the arena in the first place.

I also think it's quite telling that of all the people that watched there is only one video that shows less than 2 minutes of footage and cuts out before the demonstration ends. For all we know Pat could have ended the demo by doing Grand Prix dressage in the nude (although I would rather see Linda do that).


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

kevinshorses said:


> I'm going to once again defend Pat Parreli and his methods. I would bet that the reason he didn't put the horse back and say "let's try a different one" is that it would ruin a reputation that he has worked very hard to build and the horse would not get any help at all. Sometimes it's not pretty to fix problems like this. I think the outrage and disgust would be better directed toward the owners that allowed the problems to develop in the first place.


Perhaps, I honestly think he did his reputation more damage by proceeding the way he did. 

I have nothing seriously against PP... the only issue I have is his "cookie cutter training"... and cashing in on people's desperation or ignorance. (so I hold the same opinion of many of the NH trainers who do the same). 

I agree that somewhere along the line is a reason for the horse to have this issue in the first place (and considering he's supposedly a famous jumper I have to wonder why he was allowed to get so "bad" about this issue in the first place - rather than being worked through it).

Looking at Catwalk I saw a horse who wasn't really being "aggresive" about having his ears touched, but was responding to a memory of something negative attached to the idea of having his ears touched. It looked to me to be a fear response .

I think PP could, quite likely, have made SOME progress (maybe not the whole job) during his session, while still keeping the horse a bit calmer. 

When we lose relaxation the rest of our training comes to stand still - PP and any other "big" trainer should understand this. I'd have stood up and applauded if he'd chosen this route...

That said... to err is to be human... no matter how famous we may or may not be.


----------



## kevinshorses

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Perhaps, I honestly think he did his reputation more damage by proceeding the way he did.
> 
> I have nothing seriously against PP... the only issue I have is his "cookie cutter training"... and cashing in on people's desperation or ignorance. (so I hold the same opinion of many of the NH trainers who do the same).
> 
> I agree that somewhere along the line is a reason for the horse to have this issue in the first place (and considering he's supposedly a famous jumper I have to wonder why he was allowed to get so "bad" about this issue in the first place - rather than being worked through it).
> 
> Looking at Catwalk I saw a horse who wasn't really being "aggresive" about having his ears touched, but was responding to a memory of something negative attached to the idea of having his ears touched. It looked to me to be a fear response .
> 
> I think PP could, quite likely, have made SOME progress (maybe not the whole job) during his session, while still keeping the horse a bit calmer.
> 
> When we lose relaxation the rest of our training comes to stand still - PP and any other "big" trainer should understand this. I'd have stood up and applauded if he'd chosen this route...
> 
> That said... to err is to be human... no matter how famous we may or may not be.


I totally agree!!


----------



## kitten_Val

kevinshorses said:


> I'm going to once again defend Pat Parreli and his methods. *I would bet that the reason he didn't put the horse back and say "let's try a different one" is that it would ruin a reputation that he has worked very hard to build and the horse would not get any help at all. *Sometimes it's not pretty to fix problems like this. I think the outrage and disgust would be better directed toward the owners that allowed the problems to develop in the first place.


Kevin, the great rider and trainer Tommie Turvey fall off the horse _hard_ during one of his demonstrations (I was there). Guess what? He just took it easy, got up, and explained WHY it happened (BTW, he wasn't able to continue because his horses went bananas). Did he "ruin" his reputation? Heck, no. I'm sure people respect him more for being able to admit what went wrong. Things happen you know.


----------



## kitten_Val

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Perhaps, I honestly think he did his reputation more damage by proceeding the way he did.


Completely agree.


----------



## RogueMare

Thanks for the avatar compliment. 


When I hear carrot stick.. this is what I think of... 






Maybe I'm a little off though....

Anyways. Here ---> Challenging horse lived up to its billing tonight | is where the PP quote about Catwalks Behavior came from.. The whole website makes me friggin barf... 

And I wouldn't say we're bashing him TO badly... He just sucks.... 

But it all honestly.... How he handled the sit-eeeeashun was wrong. And Linda with the second video.... I think she was trying to accomplish confusing the crap out of the horse and making herself look knowledgeable to unsuspecting PP Savvy Cultists...


----------



## BrewCrew

(I didn't read all 13 pages of this thread)



ridergirl23 said:


> HAHAHAHA i must say, i LOVED how the musicwas all soothing in the background, while Pat go all angry at a horse.


HAHA. ME TOO!  

Poor horse.


----------



## smrobs

kevinshorses said:


> For all we know Pat could have ended the demo by doing Grand Prix dressage in the nude (although I would rather see Linda do that).


   Ew, thank you for a year of horrible nightmares Kevin.


----------



## AfleetAlex

Uproar in England following Parelli exhibition July 9 at 2010 Royal Festival of the Horse

Here's another eyewitness to the event. This person actually saw the lesion on Catwalk's gums up close.


----------



## ridergirl23

I think the worst part about this was he rushed it. It could have gone a lot smoother if he had taken his time, and not tryed to do it in two hours.


----------



## equiniphile

Stupid question, but who is this famous Catwalk? He can't be famous for his work as an under-saddle horse if he doesn't take the bridle lol. Is he the offspring of some amazing horse?


----------



## ridergirl23

Equestrian Management Group - Horse Show Facility and Competition Management - Darrin Dlin Wins $100,000 World Cup Grand Prix at Caledon Summer Festival

i have no idea if this is him, but i googled Catwalk, and this is what i found... haha i actually had to google 'catwalk-jumping' because the pat parelli videos were EVERYWHERE. lol.


----------



## dressagexlee

When I worked exercising lesson horses a while back, there was a green Clydesdale cross, Czar (ironically, started with Parelli methods by his old owners), that was extremely headshy and almost impossible to bridle. I spent a week in a stall with him, bridle in one hand, sugar cubes in my pocket, just petting him and getting him to accept touch. In the beginning, it would take at least thirty minutes to get him bridled, but little by little he learned to accept touch and associate the bridle with good things like wither-scratches and just a simple release from pressure. Now, I'm working on the same thing with Mel. I only see her once or twice a week, and she's getting it even quicker than Czar because she already accepts touch.
I think of the task not so much as to have the goal of getting the bridle on, but rather to have the horse accept the bridle, and accept me being around their head. Is that not "natural horsemanship" sounding?

There are rare situations where I think it's appropriate for a trainer to do something extreme in order to get over an issue - _but why in this situation_? The horse was not displaying aggressive or dangerous behaviour, he wasn't trying to tank anyone over, run away, or really anything. The most I could see was some ear-pinning, and ravoiding touch on accounts of extreme headshyness.
You don't have to put on your "balls of steel" and wrestle the bridle on the horse's face within two hours. Do you expect a dog to heel on a leash within thirty minutes? Do you expect a child to learn how to add and subract in a day? Honestly, you don't have to be a fifty year-old classical dressage master or cowboy or whatever to figure out that some of these things just take endless amounts of _time, patience, feel, and empathy_. 

Honestly, I wouldn't care if he was my own trainer or bloody Steffen Peters. He could've walked out of there with my respect if he simply said, "Well, gee, he's headshy. Let's take our time on this and we may or may not be able to bridle him by the end."
But nope, Pat "Handlebar Face" Parelli and his trusty sidekick Bomb Blonde had to put on a circus and later act like it never happened, thus making _but an *** of_ [horse]_men_.


----------



## Jolly Badger

equiniphile said:


> Stupid question, but who is this famous Catwalk? He can't be famous for his work as an under-saddle horse if he doesn't take the bridle lol. Is he the offspring of some amazing horse?


As I understand it, the stallion actually has been competing at some level in Europe but Whitaker only had him for about two months before he was used in the demonstration with Parelli. So, it's not so much that the horse could not be bridled at all. . .just that he'd become difficult to bridle.


----------



## Jolly Badger

savvylover112 said:


> Just had to comment on this only three people other than the vet was at the vet inspection. People on horse and hound say they were there though. There was no further demonstrations planned for Catwalk at the festival of the horse.
> 
> Shauna


Apparently there were further "sessions" for Parelli and Catwalk after the Friday night incident. Whether or not they were official demonstrations doesn't change the fact that Friday night's demonstration wasn't the end of the story. . .nor does it change the fact that the horse came away from Friday night with a lesion in its mouth.

Interesting little tidbit from the "master horseman" himself.

_EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 
When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *
So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over. . ._

So. . .Pat won't use methods like twitching and tying or other forceful methods to make a horse accept something?

Or maybe this time it was "different" in Catwalk's case, because [insert BS reasons and PR damage control statements here].:wink:

_ 
_


----------



## ridergirl23

Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? 
If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. 

Firstly, My family and friends would definitly send me to a mental institute if i tryed to touch their ears....... or put a bridle on them. so dont compare people and hroses Pat, they arent actually as alike as you think. 

Hehehe ya, my mom doesnt let me touch her face cause she doesnt trust me, thats it. because she always slapped my hand and told me to stop bugging her. again, people are NOT very alike to horses.

I actually appreciate Parelli... what other entertainment would we have if he didnt do things like this, AND talk about how terrible it is?


----------



## riccil0ve

ridergirl23 said:


> Equestrian Management Group - Horse Show Facility and Competition Management - Darrin Dlin Wins $100,000 World Cup Grand Prix at Caledon Summer Festival
> 
> i have no idea if this is him, but i googled Catwalk, and this is what i found... haha i actually had to google 'catwalk-jumping' because the pat parelli videos were EVERYWHERE. lol.


That page says Catwalk is a mare. Perhaps there are two.

The last link posted by AfleetAlex that had more eye-witness accounts was absurd. One poster went so far as to say this; _"I learned so much from this session. Pat showed true mastery, taking Catwalk 'to the limit, but not over the limit' and I saw a new level of meaning in 'passive persistence'. The best display I have ever seen of why being a horseman requires 'love, language and leadership' - not 'love, love and love' or even 'love, language and more love'. Educational, inspiring and truly magnificent session."_

:shock:


----------



## ridergirl23

riccil0ve said:


> That page says Catwalk is a mare. Perhaps there are two.
> 
> The last link posted by AfleetAlex that had more eye-witness accounts was absurd. One poster went so far as to say this; _"I learned so much from this session. Pat showed true mastery, taking Catwalk 'to the limit, but not over the limit' and I saw a new level of meaning in 'passive persistence'. The best display I have ever seen of why being a horseman requires 'love, language and leadership' - not 'love, love and love' or even 'love, language and more love'. Educational, inspiring and truly magnificent session."_
> 
> :shock:


 haha whoops :lol: i guess i didnt read the page to closely xD


----------



## riccil0ve

ridergirl23 said:


> haha whoops :lol: i guess i didnt read the page to closely xD


No biggy. I got your back. =]


----------



## dressagexlee

riccil0ve said:


> "I learned so much from this session. Pat showed true mastery, taking Catwalk 'to the limit, but not over the limit' and I saw a new level of meaning in 'passive persistence'. The best display I have ever seen of why being a horseman requires 'love, language and leadership' - not 'love, love and love' or even 'love, language and more love'. Educational, inspiring and truly magnificent session."
> 
> :shock:


So the fact that the horse broke free and ran about, and was also left bleeding at the end is not considered being pushed over the limit? But, in fact, considered love? I'm afraid. For the love of Bodom, that person better be trollin'.


----------



## riccil0ve

dressagexlee said:


> So the fact that the horse broke free and ran about, and was also left bleeding at the end is not considered being pushed over the limit? But, in fact, considered love? I'm afraid. For the love of Bodom, that person better be trollin'.


I also found nothing in the video or the other accounts that could be labeled as "passive persistance." He tied a horse up and shoved a bit in it's mouth. No, it wasn't abusive, but certainly aggressive. And to such a seemingly well-behaved stallion too. =\


----------



## Eliz

Jolly Badger said:


> _EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli_
> _Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's? _
> _If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship. _
> _When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *_
> _So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over. . ._
> 
> So. . .Pat won't use methods like twitching and tying or other forceful methods to make a horse accept something?
> 
> Or maybe this time it was "different" in Catwalk's case, because [insert BS reasons and PR damage control statements here].:wink:


See, this is what gets me. You DO NOT say something like that then completely contradict yourself. I would have nothing against parelli if it weren't for their extreme hypocricy (wow, sp?) and overpriced BS.

Get a grip, Pat.


----------



## Gidji

Oh I love PP. He's such a hypocrite. Of course, NH can and does work but that whole idealogy that one size fits all is just a money making scheme. Its too commercial.

What he did to Catwalk was certainly not appropriate at that time and I feel that this is the blow he needs for Parelli fanactics to wake up to themselves.

Oh btw, Speed Racer, did I mention your my hero?


----------



## inaclick

I see more and more similarities between PP and Cesar Milan :/

I don't remember seeing or hearing anything about a method even close to the one used in the video at the shelter where I volunteer. 
And mostly all horses have been terribly abused and have issues far worse than being headshy.


Maybe PP is going senile? It's not sarcastic question, really. How old is he? How long has he been doing what he's doing?
He's clearly trapped and trampled in his own sea of carrot sticks and fluffy crap, but what can he do? He could retire of course, but I doubt his ego would allow it. 

I'm slowly starting to question and doubt this all NH thing. After seeing this video, a whip smack or a short rein jerk are actually much less "cruel" than what he did to that horse.

That stallion actually was well behaving and started out the whole thing calm and willing. He ended up scared, scarred and utterly confused...


----------



## Alwaysbehind

kevinshorses said:


> Most of the time change is accompanied by pain and distress. The more deep seated the issue the more pain and distress comes with it. If the video was more clear I could comment on what they were actually doing but I didn't see anything abusive. As far as blaming the owners, I think they are the only ones to blame. Had they treated the horse properly and trained him properly then he wouldn't have been in the arena in the first place.
> 
> I also think it's quite telling that of all the people that watched there is only one video that shows less than 2 minutes of footage and cuts out before the demonstration ends. For all we know Pat could have ended the demo by doing Grand Prix dressage in the nude (although I would rather see Linda do that).


Kevin, you are so busy insisting PP is right that you are missing the point of the whole thread.

Speedracer said it best so I will simply quote her.



Speed Racer said:


> Kevin, if he was a regular trainer who wasn't always spouting off about 'respect', 'love', and ASKING a horse to do something, we wouldn't be so hard on him.
> 
> As it is, he's hoist on his own petard. Nothing I saw was horribly abusive, but it was completely _against_ everything he's preached about lo these many years.
> 
> If he wants to use those methods, I'm okay with it. He just needs to STFU about how his ways are so much better than all the 'abusive' ones out there, because I didn't see anything so 'savvy' or 'respectful' about what he was doing.
> 
> All I saw was someone trying to force their will onto an obviously recalcitrant horse.
> 
> I can get a bridle shy horse to accept the bit with no force or trauma. If Parelli is so wonderful, why couldn't he have figured out a way to do the same? I'm far from being some wunderkind trainer, as he claims to be.


The bottom line is, PP and his posse brag about teaching horses thru love and asking them to do things. They preach and have their followers preach that those of us who do not teach horses using his ask do not tell techniques are cruel and mean horse owners.

I do not think what he did was abusive. It is just totally the opposite of what he has been shoving down our throats for years.

I do agree that Catwalk's owner is at fault here. They were wrong for allowing the demonstration to continue and they were wrong for letting their horse get into that situation.


----------



## kitten_Val

Jolly Badger said:


> Apparently there were further "sessions" for Parelli and Catwalk after the Friday night incident. Whether or not they were official demonstrations doesn't change the fact that Friday night's demonstration wasn't the end of the story. . .nor does it change the fact that the horse came away from Friday night with a lesion in its mouth.
> 
> Interesting little tidbit from the "master horseman" himself.
> 
> _EAR SHY? By Pat Parelli
> Can you touch your husband's ears? What about your best friend's, your child's or your mother's?
> If you couldn't then there's probably something wrong with the relationship! This is how I want you to think of your horse's so-called 'problem'. If he doesn't like his ears to be touched its because deep down inside, he does not trust you. There is a flaw in your relationship.
> When I talk about the solution here I am going to give you the natural approach, the one that consider's the horse's point of view. To effect a 'cure' you have to gain his trust and permission. *The normal way is often to force the horse to accept it, twitch him, tie him, throw him…. In my mind (and in the horse's I'm sure) this is akin to rape and I won't use it. *
> So to do it with the horse's permission may seem to take a little time, technique and knowledge, but if you do it right you won't have to do it over. . ._
> 
> So. . .Pat won't use methods like twitching and tying or other forceful methods to make a horse accept something?
> 
> Or maybe this time it was "different" in Catwalk's case, because [insert BS reasons and PR damage control statements here].:wink:


Jolly, you rock! I just laughed so hard about it.


----------



## Jolly Badger

inaclick said:


> I see more and more similarities between PP and Cesar Milan :/


Which probably explains why Cesar and PP "teamed up" for that episode of _The Dog Whisperer._

The two of them were practically gushing over each other the entire time, and I expected to see them holding hands as they walked around the farm together. Not to mention the cowboy hat Cesar was wearing. 

::shudder::

Creepy.:shock:


----------



## SallyRC123

Hahaha can I just say I loved the Carrot Stick Video =]] Lots of giggles!


----------



## Alwaysbehind

inaclick said:


> I see more and more similarities between PP and Cesar Milan :/


You mean the whole theory that marketing and making money hand over fist is far more important than the problems you can be making for the animals?

Sigh!

I totally agree with you.


----------



## Poco1220

Sp by PP's own quote we shouldn't be accusing him if abusing a stallion. We should be accusing him of raping a stallion! Hmm. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

Poco1220 said:


> Sp by PP's own quote we shouldn't be accusing him if abusing a stallion. We should be accusing him of raping a stallion! Hmm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bad touching!!! BAD TOUCHING!!! :shock:


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Speed Racer said:


> Bad touching!!! BAD TOUCHING!!! :shock:


****... 

Got a dumb question though, I've only watched a bit of Cesar Milan... but I enjoyed watching and listening to him... so I'm wondering what he does that's so "wrong"? (I know, not at all horse related really) Maybe I've missed something since I haven't watched too much of him, but he teaches owners how the dog's mind works and I don't think I've seen him resort to physical violence towards a dog -even one trying to bite him... so I'm just curious?


----------



## inaclick

Well Cesar Milan's methods work mainly for short term and probably are good for strong willed spoiled dogs who actualy need to be broken (almost literally)

The customers of both PP and Cesar Milan seem to share same common traits:
- they want a "fix it NOW" solution
- they ignored the issues their animal had when it was young or before buying and they ended up with a permanent havoc instead 
- they are complete strangers to their own animals most of them, meaning they know nothing about how this animal naturally reacts, behaves etc

Here is a huge thread on a forum where I read now and then. I'm not saying they say the truth, but some make very valid points.
For a sensitive or shy dog, Cesar Milan can be a total wreck. He will come to your house, intimidate and scare the crap out of your dog, smile his pearly whites at the camera and ****** off. 

Also, encouraging dogs to start a fight and breaking them off by pulling on their backlegs was appaling :/

Also, just for giggles


----------



## inaclick

P.S.

However Cesar Milan does have some good points:

- he advocates exercise exercise exercise. So many dogs out there are simply going nuts out of boredom, because their couch potatoes owners consider that cuddling at TV and throwing a Frisbee once per month is fun enough.
- he does indeed keep warning that dogs are not humans and should not be treated as humans, but we should learn their ways and adapt to them. Although it sounds bloody obvious, the amount of twats who do not understand this is huge.

About PP I can't say much. I am sure he has a lot of good parts too, I am sure his contribution to the horsemanship is real and is good, but i am also sure he's going cuckoo


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## Alwaysbehind

inaclick said:


> - he does indeed keep warning that dogs are not humans and should not be treated as humans, but we should learn their ways and adapt to them. Although it sounds bloody obvious, the amount of twats who do not understand this is huge.


I love the look you get when you have to tell someone that their dog is not a small furry human so they can not treat it like one.


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## Jolly Badger

inaclick said:


> The customers of both PP and Cesar Milan seem to share same common traits:
> - they want a "fix it NOW" solution
> - they ignored the issues their animal had when it was young or before buying and they ended up with a permanent havoc instead
> - they are complete strangers to their own animals most of them, meaning they know nothing about how this animal naturally reacts, behaves etc


I do find Cesar's show somewhat entertaining, but that's not because I think he's necessarily a great dog trainer. Though I do like the fact that he tries to combat the negative stereotypes that some breeds have. . .not by telling everyone that they ought to go out and get a Rottweiler or APBT, but by reinforcing that owners need to take responsibility for the animals they own. In the case of larger breeds with strong working temperaments, there are some people who simply are not competent enough to raise one properly.

A large part of the Cesar entertainment factor is due to the people who call him for help. There are a lot of Lassie-owner types, who seem to think that dogs are just automatically supposed to "know" how to behave just like the hero dogs in the movies, and they don't seem to realize that you actually have to be consistent and patient with your training. Plus. . .well. . .Lassie was just a show. There have been a few cases where the owners say "well, we took Poopsie to a few classes when she was a puppy and figured that was enough, so that's all we've ever done." 

*FACEPALM*:???:

And then there are those who let the dog basically take over the house from the moment they bring it home and it never occured to them that the dog needed any kind of "training." Not surprisingly, in those homes where children are present, the _kids_ are just as out-of-control and disrespectful as the dogs. 

I wonder if that has something to do with the fluffy, feel-good idea that some adults have, that they're supposed to be "friends" with their children and their puppies. . .and whatever you do, _don't_ tell them "no" because it might hurt their feelings.:roll: 

Maybe Cesar ought to do some duo episodes with the Super Nanny?

Just don't invite the Parelli's. . .they might try to lip-twitch a kid or hobble a red-zone dog. . .:lol:


----------



## Speed Racer

Jolly Badger said:


> I wonder if that has something to do with the fluffy, feel-good idea that some adults have, that they're supposed to be "friends" with their children and their puppies.


These are the same people who lurve Parelli and gorge on the kool-aid, Jolly.

Oh no, I can't possibly send Pretty Poneh to _that_ trainer, because she won't respect his dignity or play the 'Poke the Porcupine' game with him! She'll make him work instead of asking him how he _feels_ about it first! :rofl:

Seriously, it's an ANIMAL. It's not a furbaby (that term makes my skin crawl) and it doesn't 'wuv its mumsie'. Be an owner and caretaker fer chrissake! 

It's good to be on friendly terms with your animals, but never forget that they are NOT human and they don't THINK like humans. Gah!

I love my animals, but the day I _ask_ my dog if she'll willingly get off the bed, or _ask_ my horses' permission to ride them, is the day you can slap my butt in the old folks' home, because it's obvious I've gone senile!


----------



## inaclick

Jolly Badger said:


> Though I do like the fact that he tries to combat the negative stereotypes that some breeds have.


As an APBT owner, I am indeed positively biased about this as well 

I think these wonder-trainers are the result of our deep wrong ways nowadays.
We live in a weird world.
We want horses, dogs, cat, children, families, jobs, but we want them al NOW and FAST.
We want a super slim and fit body, but we don't want to hear about diets and excercises that would take 2 years. That's why we swallow all sorts of "I lost a billion pounds over night!" pills or starve ourselves to death

We want a horse or a dog that acts like a happy japanese cartoon robot. We dont want to take responsibility or ever to feel guilty about god forbid mistreating him, so if our horse bolts or our dog snarls, we either sell them either call the CM / PP Fairy to fix it quick quick quick!

We get married early and when we get in trouble, we'd rather pay some guy to do sit in front of us bored and ask us "and how does that make you feel" instead of asking those goddam questions ourselves.

We're greedy, lazy and childish. I'm sorry if my vision sounds too dim, but sometimes I see the nowadays society as a huge kindergarden of spoiled brats.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Is there really a game called poke the porcupine?


----------



## corinowalk

inaclick said:


> As an APBT owner, I am indeed positively biased about this as well
> 
> I think these wonder-trainers are the result of our deep wrong ways nowadays.
> We live in a weird world.
> We want horses, dogs, cat, children, families, jobs, but we want them al NOW and FAST.
> We want a super slim and fit body, but we don't want to hear about diets and excercises that would take 2 years. That's why we swallow all sorts of "I lost a billion pounds over night!" pills or starve ourselves to death
> 
> We want a horse or a dog that acts like a happy japanese cartoon robot. We dont want to take responsibility or ever to feel guilty about god forbid mistreating him, so if our horse bolts or our dog snarls, we either sell them either call the CM / PP Fairy to fix it quick quick quick!
> 
> We get married early and when we get in trouble, we'd rather pay some guy to do sit in front of us bored and ask us "and how does that make you feel" instead of asking those goddam questions ourselves.
> 
> We're greedy, lazy and childish. I'm sorry if my vision sounds too dim, but sometimes I see the nowadays society as a huge kindergarden of spoiled brats.


I totally agree. We live in a society of instant gratification. If it cant be done quick, it cant be done. I have been soft on horses in the past and have gotten myself in to a heap of trouble doing it. Some horses do need a gentle, calm voice. That doesn't mean dont be firm. 

I find CM's show to be entertaining. Im not sure why, but I do. I don't believe that all dogs can be 'cured' using his methods but I'm sure he has helped quite a few. I agree that his focus on exercise is a huge eye opener for some people...'oh gosh really? I need to walk that dog? Really? My little back yard where he paces nervously isn't enough?!" I do like that he is an advocate for breeds that are sterotyped. 

I think the allure of all of this is that through the magic of tv (and $40 DVD's) you can turn a monster into a lamb. Without follow through, its all worthless


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## Speed Racer

Alwaysbehind said:


> Is there really a game called poke the porcupine?


I don't think so, Always. But then, I don't 'do' the Pepperoni Sideshow method.


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## kitten_Val

Alwaysbehind said:


> Is there really a game called poke the porcupine?


Today's Horse - Focus on The Porcupine Game Not sure how much "poke" involved though....


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## tempest

Speed Racer, I love your avatar, it reminds me so much of my cat.

Sorry off topic......


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## Speed Racer

Thanks, tempest. 

I always use avatars that amuse me or mean something to me. This one reminds me of myself, actually. :lol:


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## Beling

It looks like Pat got caught in his own marketing network. No, he's really NOT allowed to use rough, painful techniques in PUBLIC. He's a salesman, a representative, of a type of training. If he needed more time, he should have said so. I'm sure his audience would have been fine with that. But along with his marketing, he has an ego, and I do believe he's gotten spoiled. He wants to be a WINNER. Right Now. And I think he looks at the problem horse as an entity, if not enemy, to be conquered.

I think it's very sad. Fortunately, there are many other trainers around who will stand by their beliefs.


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## Delfina

kitten_Val said:


> Today's Horse - Focus on The Porcupine Game Not sure how much "poke" involved though....


Ok, I read the link and his description how to play "The Porcupine Game", now could someone please enlighten me as to how a SCREWDRIVER is "Natural Horsemanship"!!??



> and finally introduced the flat screwdriver tool from my pocketknife


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## Speed Racer

Well Delfina, I imagine in The Master's Hands _everything_ becomes a 'NH' tool. Like a twitch, gum line, and rope around a leg. :roll:

Something us mere mortals could never understand how to use correctly, thus making _our_ use of said things 'abusive'.


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## Eliz

LOL I HATE PP's voice.

Just throwing that out there.

Or maybe its that beast that moves on his upper lip when he talks?


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## MacabreMikolaj

Wowsers! This sure exploded while I was gone!

In response to some who remarked on my comment on page 5 - I apologize, my initial comment wasn't directed at any of you, it was directed at the person who made and labeled the video as abuse.

I get supremely annoyed at crap like this because it reminds me of PETA - instead of sticking to facts, people have to embelish things to get others to "see their side". You don't need to accuse him of abusing a horse - most people don't actually have an issue with the technique itself (in certain situations), it's all entirely on who it was. Label it "Pat Parelli, a hypocrite exposed" but don't make it out to be more then it is. 

kevinshorses - I agree with you fully, I saw nothing actually wrong with this video. Most people didn't. They're just annoyed that these same people preach nonstop about how perfect Parelli is and how it works for everyone when it blatantly doesn't - and even when exposed, all they do is scramble to cover up their tracks.


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## Eliz

LOL its a good thread 

I was being dyslexic earlier and thought there were 71 pages 0_o I was like jeeze, the last time I posted was on 16! I was preparing myself to read a butt load of posts when I realized I was just going crazy XD


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## TheLastUnicorn

Thanks for clarifying the Cesar thing... I appreciate it. I've always enjoyed his show because he doesn't claim to have "magic" that works on dogs... and he does seem to tell most of the owners if they don't keep it up, and be calm assertive leaders - their dog WILL revert. I actually know a few people who are better dog owners because of his show, and them realizing they do was 98% of the people featured are doing wrong. 

As far as Pat... well, I always figured it was just a matter of time before he was actually caught on tape breaking his own "rules". 

He does have some good stuff... but lacks "feel" - he never seems to teach people how to recognize when things need to be changed, stopped, or rewarded - as a result many Parelli trained horses are sour and dangerous.

Whenever I'm asked about PP I respond with "He's no better or worse than most horse people out there... I don't agree with his "program" because there's no such thing as cookie cutter horsemanship"


----------



## Eliz

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Thanks for clarifying the Cesar thing... I appreciate it. I've always enjoyed his show because he doesn't claim to have "magic" that works on dogs... and he does seem to tell most of the owners if they don't keep it up, and be calm assertive leaders - their dog WILL revert. I actually know a few people who are better dog owners because of his show, and them realizing they do was 98% of the people featured are doing wrong.


Check out Victoria Stilwell, the lady that trains on "It's Me Or The Dog".
She's a no-BS trainer that uses common sense. The Clinton Anderson of the dog world, IMO


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## sarahver

After all this hooplah, I bet PP just wants to kick poor ol Catwalk in the nuts, hopefully that was their last training session together.


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## riccil0ve

Eliz said:


> Check out Victoria Stilwell, the lady that trains on "It's Me Or The Dog".
> She's a no-BS trainer that uses common sense. The Clinton Anderson of the dog world, IMO


I was wondering if she'd be brought up. I ADORE Victoria Stilwell. She knows what she's talking about, she's never done anything I disagreed with, she's never raised her voice, never raised her hand, and she doesn't teach a dog to sit by pushing it's butt down. I also think it's pretty rad that she dresses like a dominatrix. =D Haha.


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## Northern

To sign a petition for an investigation into the incident with PP & Catwalk:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop-parelli/


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## inaclick

I love Victoria too! 

P.S. Off-topic: I keep seeing references to kool-aid gorging people.

What is kool-aid? We don't have that thing in here :lol:
Just very curious


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## Alwaysbehind

inaclick said:


> I love Victoria too!
> 
> P.S. Off-topic: I keep seeing references to kool-aid gorging people.
> 
> What is kool-aid? We don't have that thing in here :lol:
> Just very curious


Kool-aid is a sugar sweetened drink. Basically soda with out the fizz. Most people mix it at home from little packages of flavored powder.

Link

The use of it here is in reference to the Jim Jones cult who all drank Kool-aid laced with cyanide at the direction of their leader because he told them to. This happened in 1978 so it might be before your time enough that you do not know about it.

It is a pretty standard reference to anyone who blindly follows someone even when that person has been shown to not be quite all they profess to be.




Beling said:


> It looks like Pat got caught in his own marketing network. No, he's really NOT allowed to use rough, painful techniques in PUBLIC. He's a salesman, a representative, of a type of training. If he needed more time, he should have said so. I'm sure his audience would have been fine with that. But along with his marketing, he has an ego, and I do believe he's gotten spoiled. He wants to be a WINNER. Right Now. And I think he looks at the problem horse as an entity, if not enemy, to be conquered.


I agree.


----------



## inaclick

Alwaysbehind said:


> The use of it here is in reference to the Jim Jones cult who all drank Kool-aid laced with cyanide at the direction of their leader because he told them to. This happened in 1978 so it might be before your time enough that you do not know about it.
> 
> It is a pretty standard reference to anyone who blindly follows someone even when that person has been shown to not be quite all they profess to be.


:shock: Oh deary me I did not know that. Indeed, I was born way after '78. Plus, in '78 our country was in a full cautiously coffined communist dictatorship. We barely knew where you guys were located, let aside what were you drinking / eating 
We use the "lemmings" as reference to that kind of people in here. Or "sheep"


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## Alwaysbehind

inaclick said:


> We use the "lemmings" as reference to that kind of people in here. Or "sheep"


Yep, same thing. I have heard both those terms used too.


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## Speed Racer

inaclick said:


> We use the "lemmings" as reference to that kind of people in here. Or "sheep"


Both very good descriptions, and on occasion I've used sheeple. Sheep+people=sheeple. 'Cause sheep are stupid, unable to think for themselves, and follow wherever their master leads.


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## Poco1220

Yea give it a couple years and the words sheep and lemmings will be obsolete. All you'll hear is "she's such a parelli! She can't think of anything on her own!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jolly Badger

Alwaysbehind said:


> Is there really a game called poke the porcupine?


The whole "poking" thing disturbs me.

It's kind of like the word "savvy." It's funny when Captain Jack Sparrow says it. Not so funny when it's used by the Parellites to describe their supposed "superiority" to other training methods.

When it comes to the word "poke," the first thing that comes to mind is Augustus McCrae from _Lonesome Dove_ asking Lorena for a "poke." And I'm pretty sure "poking" animals, whether they be porcupine or otherwise, is illegal in most states. . .:shock:

:lol:


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## Jolly Badger

Speed Racer said:


> Both very good descriptions, and on occasion I've used sheeple. Sheep+people=sheeple. 'Cause sheep are stupid, unable to think for themselves, and follow wherever their master leads.


Not to mention, they're fluffy and cute on the outside. . .kind of dirty and knobby-looking underneath, though. . .:lol:


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## wyominggrandma

Believe it or not, I was living in Ukiah,CA when the whole Jim Jones thing went down in Redwood Valley,Ca which was about 10 miles away. Before he took his group off to die in Kool Aid land, they would be all over everywhere. His compound was indeed a fortress with guards. Once in there, most folks were not able to get out.
About CM, he puts on a good show and sounds good, but the animals are being trained through pressure and eventually end up in a "zoned out state" where they are so stressed all they do is lay there and pant and pant and stare from "unseeing" eyes. But, like somebody said, he is meant for the people who think their dogs are their children and should be treated like children. Working at a vet and as a groomer(plus professionally show dogs) I get so many people coming in and actually worried that we will make "princess fluffy toes" mind and behave instead of being bitten. One lady wanted us to sedate her 5 lb dog to look at its eye. I told her we would try something first before sedating it. I put a muzzle on it, wrapped it in a towel and laid it on the table, the vet looked, treated and took care of the eye without a problem. Same goes for grooming little "fluffy" who bites when he is brushed. Usually letting him bite the brush once or twice and he no longer bites me. CM pushes the dogs over the limit of what they can comprend and then they just space out totally and do what he wants. However, you can bet the owner will not choke a dog down or whatever and the dog will continue acting like it did before as soon as CM leaves. I can't picture most folks running at their dog with a tennis racket so it won't bite, can you? They will just give up and continue letting the dog act how it wants. CM can make money because he takes a family who has let their dog take over the house, dress it up in clothes, treat it like a baby and make the dog mind. Any good trainer can do the same thing, only take time, show the family how to correct the dog the right way and will make it a good pet, like Victoria does.
As far as PP, I used to watch his show, as I do all the trainers shows, but this video shows that he doesn't practice what he preaches. Kinda lost his cool big time. Linda, whom I have watched on the show amazes me, she just hounds and hounds a horse to death and never seems to accomplish anything. I guess I am crazy, but would certainly never stand for PP to treat my horse that way, nor Linda on her video of trying to get the horses attention. I can't understand why the owner just stood there watching. I dodn't have respect for PP at all, don't believe in his gadgets and pity the brainwashed folks that still believe in him.
Pass the kool-aid please.


----------



## RadHenry09

Found this on youtube and wanted to share

YouTube - ParelliTube's Channel
Written statement released by Pat


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## Northern

*Hey, Pat! We need to hear about the twitch, etc.!*

Not a word about the twitch, gumline, tying up the leg, & 2 hours spent (way too long) for the issue of bridling!:-(

The vet's letter was unreadable, as well. :-( My gut feeling is that the British women who said that Catwalk had a red lesion on his gum were telling the truth.


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## Eliz

The sad thing is alot of his followers are still following & defending him. 
What will it take to get through to them..?


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## ridergirl23

he said it was one of the top three most challenging horses he has ever worked with.... well Pat, i would LOVE to see him use love,leadership and rape on a horse trying to kill him. it would be the most entertaining thing ever. Thats statment totally led me to believe he has only EVER worked with 'fall into your lap' horses, not real brutes that would nail you to the ground if they could.

It wasnt a really clear video, but i still saw ZERO signs of aggression from catwalk. maybe there was, maybe catwalk was trying to kill him, who knows.


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## dressagexlee

ridergirl23 said:


> he said it was one of the top three most challenging horses he has ever worked with.... well Pat, i would LOVE to see him use love,leadership and rape on a horse trying to kill him. it would be the most entertaining thing ever. Thats statment totally led me to believe he has only EVER worked with 'fall into your lap' horses, not real brutes that would nail you to the ground if they could.
> 
> It wasnt a really clear video, but i still saw ZERO signs of aggression from catwalk. maybe there was, maybe catwalk was trying to kill him, who knows.


I thought this as well. Please. Pat hasn't met Freddy. He have his shorts converted into a shirt (meaning, a third hole would be made) if he tried any of his nonsense on him. The porcupine game alone would merit him a good thrashing about - nobody, I repeat, _nobody_ pokes Freddy.

But clearly, Catwalk was extremely aggressive and dangerous. Why, did you not see that most evil ear pinning?! Oh, and then - _and then_ - he tried to _turn away from Pat_ - the hell, the _horror_!!


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## ridergirl23

haha exactly! 

NOW i know why he thinks his techniques work on EVERY horse, he only ever works with the lap horses! oh thank god! I thought rena was just a freak horse that was oober grumpy and couldnt care less if anyone wanted to 'bond' with her. *sighs in relief*


----------



## smrobs

ridergirl23 said:


> he said it was one of the top three most challenging horses he has ever worked with.


 Oh holy crap. What a joke. He isn't much of a horseman then if he hasn't had any dealings with any horse that would charge, bite, paw, kick, run over you, and then stop only long enough to pee on your bleeding face before crashing the fence of the pen and running off across the pasture. I would love to see how he would handle a truely rotten, dangerous horse. LOL.


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## Spyder

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting...anyone for new duds?

Puck Farelli : Mane Events Custom Designs


----------



## Gidji

Hehe, I wonder if anyone buys those.


----------



## speedy da fish

AfleetAlex said:


> Uproar in England following Parelli exhibition July 9 at 2010 Royal Festival of the Horse
> 
> Here's another eyewitness to the event. This person actually saw the lesion on Catwalk's gums up close.


Wow, well this article has 100% confirmed that this was the festival that I nearly went to... and that horse belonged to Robert Whitaker! I don't know if you have heard of him in the US but... wow! Thats an expensive horse then... I can't believe he trusted PP to do that as the Whitakers to me have always seemed pretty old school.


----------



## krissy3

dressagexlee said:


> I thought this as well. Please. Pat hasn't met Freddy. He have his shorts converted into a shirt (meaning, a third hole would be made) if he tried any of his nonsense on him. The porcupine game alone would merit him a good thrashing about - nobody, I repeat, _nobody_ pokes Freddy.
> 
> But clearly, Catwalk was extremely aggressive and dangerous. Why, did you not see that most evil ear pinning?! Oh, and then - _and then_ - he tried to _turn away from Pat_ - the hell, the _horror_!!


I was thinking the same 
Even as a miniature horse mom , I didnt think the situation was that dang scary! I think I would have stood at Catwalks side instead of the front ( breaking his own rule I believe) and just scratched his forehead a bit, every time he allowed me to sratch or pet him there he would get a snack. I think after a min or two he would figure out the messing with = teats... and the bit would have be accepted without the garbage that went on. If not...well then a simple " Sorry folks " I am not in the right frame of mind at the moment, and I want to finish on a posative note, i will ask for something small , and call it a day for him, or a Time out for me. I take lots of Time outs when I am not speaking clearly to my horses and they are getting frustrated ( and me too) ARROGANCE ,EGO, AND TRAINING DONT MIX. This man is full of greed, arrogance , and a large ego, this goes for his little side kick Lina too.:evil:


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## sarahver

smrobs said:


> Oh holy crap. What a joke. He isn't much of a horseman then if he hasn't had any dealings with any horse that would charge, bite, paw, kick, run over you, and then stop only long enough to pee on your bleeding face before crashing the fence of the pen and running off across the pasture. I would love to see how he would handle a truely rotten, dangerous horse. LOL.


Hmmm, I wouldn't like to see that actually, he'd probably amputate the leg then stitch the bridle to the horses head to permanently solve all bridling issues.


----------



## sarahver

I actually feel for Pat in some ways, I think he WANTS good things for horses and genuinely tries with his training methods to achieve success in non combative ways. Unfortunately his constant spruiking and denegration of other methods is what is going to be his undoing. 

This fiasco with Catwalk just demonstrates that his methods may not work every time. He was dealing with a nervous and somewhat belligerent stallion (certainly not the worst I have seen) in an uncontrolled environment with a crowd of people watching. I think two things came in to play in this situation: Catwalk decided he was DEFINATELY NOT going to be bridled and Pat decided he was DEFINATELY going to bridle him. This type of situation as we all know is very very common when training horses, however the natural horsemanship approach won't work on every horse, every time. Pat should be aware of that and therefore should have not advocated that his training methods (and associated expensive gimmicks and marketing ploys) are the only way to go. I have used leg restraints and twitches on extremely difficult horses before and I would do it again, sometimes the situation calls for it, luckily it is rare. 

I am sure Pat is aware of this fact and it isn't the first time he has had to resort to a more forceful approach, just the first time caught on camera in front of a crowd of people. This wouldn't have been such an embarrassment to him and his brand if he had he not constantly preached that the natural approach is the ONLY way.


----------



## RogueMare

(Sorry if this is a little wacked out, just got outta work last night) 
Wow, this thread has blown up in my couple days away. So much to sayyyyy..

First: I will be buying one of those T-shirts on Thursday...  Partly just because I can. lol

Secondly: That whole, Porcupine game?! bahaha I think this article shows how uneducated he actually is... "They give some early, subtle warnings about what they intend to do, then if the warnings are not heeded, the porcupine steadily and progressively increases the pressure until he finally *fires out quills*." A porcupine does NOT shoot quills... And I can't count how many horses that 'poking' with a screwdriver would be counter productive with... not to mention I'm sure there are a couple that if I 'poked' them with a screwdriver would take it and *Stab *me back.


And lastly... The ParelliTube Video made me gag... At one point he says "_You cannot push or force it or you'll put the horse over the edge_" What the hell do you call what you did then PP?! And then he goes on to say "_We finally achieved that success the following day after some more hours of passive persistence._" Was that the sandwich sharing? I wouldn't call that bonding.... 
And then he says... "_Unfortunately this has given people with Anti-Parelli sentiments "Fuel for the Fire" to contradict our methods_" ****... Anti-Parelli? He makes it sound like your "Anti-abortion" or "Anti-Semantic" if you don't follow his ways... *Facepalm* I wasn't extremely educated in PP before this thread, but reading here, and research of my own leads me to conclude NH may work for some horses, but please, haven't we all seen the "One size fits all" hats, that well... don't fit everyone? 

Thanks, I'll pass on the Kool-aid.


----------



## ridergirl23

sarahver said:


> This fiasco with Catwalk just demonstrates that his methods may not work every time. He was dealing with a nervous and somewhat belligerent stallion (certainly not the worst I have seen) in an uncontrolled environment with a crowd of people watching. I think two things came in to play in this situation: Catwalk decided he was DEFINATELY NOT going to be bridled and Pat decided he was DEFINATELY going to bridle him. This type of situation as we all know is very very common when training horses, however the natural horsemanship approach won't work on every horse, every time. Pat should be aware of that and therefore should have not advocated that his training methods (and associated expensive gimmicks and marketing ploys) are the only way to go. I have used leg restraints and twitches on extremely difficult horses before and I would do it again, sometimes the situation calls for it, luckily it is rare.
> 
> I am sure Pat is aware of this fact and it isn't the first time he has had to resort to a more forceful approach, just the first time caught on camera in front of a crowd of people. This wouldn't have been such an embarrassment to him and his brand if he had he not constantly preached that the natural approach is the ONLY way.


natural horsemanship does work of everyhorse, its horses way of comunicating, thats the horses language. What Pat has twisted it into (and lots of other trainers) isnt natural horsemanship anymore. IMO it gets unatural when you bring in equitment (saddle, bridle etc) but thats not bad, as long as you still use methods where you do the least you can do, while getting the job done.

That was not natural horsemanship, but that doesnt have to be a bad thing, theres good training ways other then natural horsemanship. but pat can in no way call that natural horsemanship, horses dont tie eachothers legs and twitch eachother! ( like stated above, that can be usefull in some situations as a last resort,but it still cant be called NH)


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## sarahver

^^ Fair enough, perhaps my knowledge of NH isn't comprehensive enough to say it doesn't work every time. Still, that makes this situation worse for Pat since if NH is supposed to work in all situations, he of all people should have been able to demonstrate that with Catwalk.


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## riccil0ve

I am certainly buying a t-****. "Puck Farelli." Haha!


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## GreyRay

Now if you just swap the "P" for the "F"...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ridergirl23

sarahver said:


> ^^ Fair enough, perhaps my knowledge of NH isn't comprehensive enough to say it doesn't work every time. Still, that makes this situation worse for Pat since if NH is supposed to work in all situations, he of all people should have been able to demonstrate that with Catwalk.


ya, he definitly should have been able too. and there are always freak situations where it might not work, heck who knows! lol


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

You know, my sister and her fiance are huge advocates of Cesar Millan. After hearing all the hoopla on here, my curiosity was truly piqued. This weekend, my sister had me watch his leadership DVD (her fiance can get anything online, haha, you can't even get his DVD's in Canada apparently) and I was really shocked.

Quite honestly, after watching 99% of dog owners, I wish everyone would watch Cesar Millan. If they did, we'd have a LOT less problems. My sister and her fiance have a 15 week old Husky/Shepherd puppy who sits and lays down on command, comes when she's called, plays fetch and also "waits" on command. She waits at the door, and she waits AT her food dish and will not touch it unless she's told ok. She's better behaved on a leash then 99% of the dogs we encounter on a walk - I'm disgusted and appalled by the number of idiots being dragged around by barking, vicious, dangerous animals that have zero concept of respect.

I saw absolutely nothing in Cesar's methods that would give cause for concern. Everything made perfect sense, and seeing it applied to my sister's puppy is absolutely remarkable to me. To be able to have such a well behaved, well balanced and well adjusted puppy at that age is just astounding. They are training her every second of every day, and she CERTAINLY is not a robot in the slightest. She still plays, shreds her toys, wrestles with humans and all sorts of fun things.

Much like Parelli, regardless if you disagree with the method or not, they MUST be acknowledged for greatly helping a big portion of the population. It all boils down to the enormous difference between human and animal psychology and most people are guilty of trying to humanize animals.

I just cannot feel I have the right to criticize someone who has so greatly helped a LARGE number of both people and animals - and that goes for virtually any trainer. They are attempting to create a more resistance free and abuse free world, and while that may falter at times, after centuries of vicious animal treatment, that HAS to be commended by animal lovers everywhere.

I will note my sister and fiance are much like me where they have followed his program, and they TAKE WHAT THEY NEED from it. They don't follow blindly, they listen to what he says and discuss it amongst themselves over how it may or may not make sense. 

Danger comes from following ANYONE blindly - you can't blame the Cesar's and the Parelli's of the world for the idiots they may attract. It does NOT remove from the fact over how much GOOD information they ARE offering the world.


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## dressagexlee

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I will note my sister and fiance are much like me where they have followed his program, and they TAKE WHAT THEY NEED from it. They don't follow blindly, they listen to what he says and discuss it amongst themselves over how it may or may not make sense.


This!!


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## RogueMare

^^ I agree there to MM


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## wyominggrandma

What a puppy learns from 8 to 12 weeks is the most important time in its life. It will take all socializing and training with it forever, when folks don't socialize and take it around people before 12 weeks it will lost a large portion of its human interaction and social skills. Likewise, when most people sell puppies at 6 weeks, they lose the best time for a puppy to learn the social skills that happen in a litter and from mom, "you bite and I will bite back" ouch it hurts.
But ANY puppy can learn to sit, down, stay, heel and do basic skills before 12 weeks and a majority can be house broken at that age also, it takes patience, dilligence and kindness. You don't need CM to train a puppy and you certainly do not need to choke one down to train it. A dog doesn't need to glazed look in its eyes to learn to be a good dog.


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## Alwaysbehind

wyominggrandma said:


> What a puppy learns from 8 to 12 weeks is the most important time in its life. It will take all socializing and training with it forever, when folks don't socialize and take it around people before 12 weeks it will lost a large portion of its human interaction and social skills. Likewise, when most people sell puppies at 6 weeks, they lose the best time for a puppy to learn the social skills that happen in a litter and from mom, "you bite and I will bite back" ouch it hurts.
> But ANY puppy can learn to sit, down, stay, heel and do basic skills before 12 weeks and a majority can be house broken at that age also, it takes patience, dilligence and kindness. You don't need CM to train a puppy and you certainly do not need to choke one down to train it. A dog doesn't need to glazed look in its eyes to learn to be a good dog.


So true. The glazed look usually makes training much more difficult in the long run.


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## inaclick

Tbh all of CM's cases are dogs that were severly neglected one way or another, in terms of training and socialising.
He's Captain Shhhh! that everyone calls after ignoring the clear signals of their dog for months or even years.

There is a saying, it's easier to prevent than to fix. No sign of dominance should be allowed from early age, no form of agression should be condescendingly looked over and yet too many people do that in the most critical age of their dogs / cats / whatever. "Oh, it's just a puppy, just a kitty, just a colt, just a filly"

They ignore the fact that these animal will grow up in 1 - 2 years and end up climbing on top of your head. Tbh CM should shhh! , jerk, smack and choke some of those owners before he gets his hands their pets.

However I still consider that for a shy, fear-aggressive, reluctant animal, CM's methods can shatter the dip of confidence that animal has left inside. For such ones, perhaps Victoria would be better.

Well Victoria would be better for all of them if you ask me...


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## GreyRay

I love Victoria... she's amazing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

wyominggrandma said:


> What a puppy learns from 8 to 12 weeks is the most important time in its life. It will take all socializing and training with it forever, when folks don't socialize and take it around people before 12 weeks it will lost a large portion of its human interaction and social skills. Likewise, when most people sell puppies at 6 weeks, they lose the best time for a puppy to learn the social skills that happen in a litter and from mom, "you bite and I will bite back" ouch it hurts.
> But ANY puppy can learn to sit, down, stay, heel and do basic skills before 12 weeks and a majority can be house broken at that age also, it takes patience, dilligence and kindness. You don't need CM to train a puppy and you certainly do not need to choke one down to train it. A dog doesn't need to glazed look in its eyes to learn to be a good dog.


This is 100% correct. My family bred, raised, and trained labs for about 30 years. We sent ours to their new homes at 8 weeks at old and most of them by that point would come, sit, and retrieve (not perfectly obviously). I got my dog from them at 12 weeks (I couldn't come down and pick him up before that), he learned sit, stay, down, off the couch, out of the kitchen, sit and wait for food, leave it, git, drop it, AND was housebroken in less than two weeks. I'm not a miracle trainer by any means either. It's called common sense and treat the dog like a dog. 

The biggest problem with CM methods is that most people know NOTHING about a dog's body language and they end up terrorizing their dogs because of it. Sure the basics of his method work great when applied to a brand new puppy with NO issues. Exercise, discipline, and affection are great foundations for any dog. But I really think that the whole "throw the dog on it's back" thing is way over used and it very rarely used correctly. People end up getting bit because of it and 99% of dog trainers will tell you the same thing. You talk to veterinary behaviorologists and they will tell you that CM methods are the worst thing you can use if you have a dangerous/fearful dog. You're just asking for the dog to snap. 

I do think that he can be helpful for people who don't have any real problems with their dogs. If nothing else they usually need to hear "*EXERCISE, *_appropriate _discipline, and THEN affection."


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## Alwaysbehind

Well said MN!

I am firm believer in a tired dog is a good dog.


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## corinowalk

^^ Same applies to horses. I searched forever for a way to get Nico to be less hot undersaddle. He was like riding a powderkeg. Not nervous...not nasty...not tempermental...just ready to GO GO GO! Truth be told...the miracle cure was in the mirror. (not implying that I am a miracle *OR* a cure) We just needed to ride more. Since my recent unemployment and showing him to possible buyers, he has been a kitten. Took him to a gaming show yesterday and boy did he dissapoint his possible owners. They were expecting the fireball I had told them about. He still ran great times for a horse in training (19 in barrels...cant believe I can still ride that way!) but never got hot. Walked calmly in...walked calmly out. I would *headdesk* myself if I hadn't inflicted myself with 3rd degree sunburns yesterday!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Thanks AB, I've spent a lot of time around dogs you can probably tell  People are always calling me with "problems" with their dogs, the first thing I ask? "How often does he get out?" then I tell them to exercise their dog and the problem will more than likely go away. 

Problem is they don't want THAT answer. They want to hear "Throw him on his back and make sure he knows you're boss".:roll:


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## Alwaysbehind

Yes, a quick fix is so much better.

Or the "we put him in the back yard all day". Um, people, dogs do not exercise themselves any better than most horses do.


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## inaclick

Alwaysbehind said:


> Um, people, dogs do not exercise themselves any better than most horses do.


Not even humans exercise themselves any better sometimes. That's why we invented the gyms and all sorts of places where some guy in shorts yells at you to keep moving


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## GreyRay

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Thanks AB, I've spent a lot of time around dogs you can probably tell  People are always calling me with "problems" with their dogs, the first thing I ask? "How often does he get out?" then I tell them to exercise their dog and the problem will more than likely go away.
> 
> Problem is they don't want THAT answer. They want to hear "Throw him on his back and make sure he knows you're boss".:roll:


We bred Great Danes up untill 08, when all but one died in our house fire. One fine litter(several years ago) we sold a beautiful Harlequin male, 10 weeks old, to a young couple. not long after that they contacted us and told us that we sold them the only bad puppy in the litter because he was having heart problems. The puppy ended up dying and out of curiosity dad asked them what the puppies scedual was. and they told us, the feeding, the watering , the usual, and then they said that he went on 5 mile runs every day... 5 MILES! 10 WEEK OLD PUPPY! dads response "What are you stupid?" they litterally ran the puppy to death. Exersize is good, in moderation lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes

True GreyRay, again that would require people using their brains. Which seems to happen less and less these days.


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## wyominggrandma

Wait, you mean my Berners are NOT exercising while laying on their backs outside in the shade????????????? Oh man, I thought they were exercising, and now I find out its just being lazy......... 
I train dogs, show them professionally, groom dogs and work for a vet, you can imagine some of the excuses we get as to why the dogs bite, lunge, have not manners, etc. " What do you mean I have to make him mind, he is my baby. If I make him mind, he won't love me anymore." I just have to bite my tongue when this happens.
Or we get a colt or filly come in with no manners at all. They will walk over top of you, bite, kick and be nasty. Again, the owners can't seem to understand horses, like dogs and every other critter are not born with manners.
Sometimes when I watch CM, I have to turn it off, I can't believe how stupid folks are with letting their "babies" get away with stuff. Especially the ones with toy dogs that attack the kids and they just sit there and let them. That really gets to me.


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## Alwaysbehind

Shocking, isn't it Grandma? That laying in the yard is not exercise.

What always annoyed me the most at dog obedience was the people who sit there petting their dog while it is snarling at the dog next to it. 
When you explain that they are praising the dog for doing what it is doing they come back with 'no, I am helping him calm down'. Um, no. You are praising. But they do not want to hear it. They are soothing Fido and nothing I say will change their mind.


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## farmpony84

Alwaysbehind said:


> Shocking, isn't it Grandma? That laying in the yard is not exercise.
> 
> What always annoyed me the most at dog obedience was the people who sit there petting their dog while it is snarling at the dog next to it.
> When you explain that they are praising the dog for doing what it is doing they come back with 'no, I am helping him calm down'. Um, no. You are praising. But they do not want to hear it. They are soothing Fido and nothing I say will change their mind.


We were practicing heeling and sitting to shake a passer bys hand and chat and the "free" and what not at class last week. A rottweiler shot across the room and attacked my dog. Out of the blue, the lady had it on a long line and wasn't holding it. These are supposed to be "the elite" I thought, I mean, to be a therapy dog I would think that attacking quiet dogs would not be a good thing... I was mad.


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## Alwaysbehind

yeah, I can not imagine taking a dog aggressive dog to be a therapy dog. Weird.

Is your dog OK?


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## Lis

You mean those owners that laugh at their little dogs attacking my big lad aren't trying to calm their dogs down by showing a calm front aren't doing it correctly?! Well...You could knock me over with a feather .

Greatest pet peeve is little dog owners who think it's amusing to let their little dog run up to mine and attack it. It might not do as much physical damage as a large dog but it still affects the other dog mentally and they won't like it when the big dog turns round and fights back.


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## Regan7312

hmm..^^..not a big fan of Perelli..(sp?), never really was though


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## inaclick

Lis said:


> You mean those owners that laugh at their little dogs attacking my big lad aren't trying to calm their dogs down by showing a calm front aren't doing it correctly?! Well...You could knock me over with a feather .
> 
> Greatest pet peeve is little dog owners who think it's amusing to let their little dog run up to mine and attack it. It might not do as much physical damage as a large dog but it still affects the other dog mentally and they won't like it when the big dog turns round and fights back.


Well to explain what happened in my case last time I had such incident, I will copy paste my post from a doggy forum:

_"I did a major F.-up around 1 week ago. I totally lost my temper. And whats even worse, I actually felt way better after...
I yelled and bitched at an old lady for 15 minutes. 

I was returning with the dog from the vet. He was half blue (the spray), tired from the heat and the whole vet treatment. He was muzzled and leashed as usually.
We passed an old lady, sitting on the bench with her dachshund -mix and a young man. As I passed, the dachshund charged at my dog barking furiously and snapping at his legs.
I said, loud enough to be heard methinks "Please, hold him"
Instead, she said "Eat 'im, momma! Eat'im!"

EAT HIM?????

And then I broke down.
In the following 15 minutes I have:
- invited the old lady to eat various parts not reached by the sun of my own body
- offered to teach her dog to swim ( we were on the lake's edge)
- made various assumptions to her mental state, IQ level and education
- when she replied "he wants to bite because he is scared" I roared "WE ARE SCARED TOO, WANNA SEE?"

and so on. All these very very euphemistically described on this forum really.
Anywho the result was me walking off and her holding her weiner-dg in her arms.

I feel bad for the fact that I felt good. Dunno if you know what I mean?
I am going a bit nuts lately, Ayax being sick, crazy ld ladies with hysterical pocket dogs running loose, the heat and all.

I'm not concerned of any legal consequences. My dog is always leashed and muzzled in public, his vaccines are up to date, there is nothing I can be charged on, especially by a nuts grandma yelling "eat'em boy"_


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## Alwaysbehind

That sounds like the same type of person who would be all up in arms if your leashed dog bit her precious little dog when her dog was the one acting like an idiot.


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## farmpony84

Alwaysbehind said:


> yeah, I can not imagine taking a dog aggressive dog to be a therapy dog. Weird.
> 
> Is your dog OK?


He's fine. He never even growled.


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## Lis

My lad is good but I know if he ever retaliated he would be the one punished for it because he's a Staffie x and a big dog so obviously a little dog could never ever start something and it's always the big dogs fault. Drives me mad and for a while I did start taking out a chain lead so I could defend us. The big mutt is too much of a wimp and he's scared at the sight of small dogs now but he still be fantastic and do a down stay while three walk past him.

Was that lady smoking something? I've had owners chuckle but eat him? Not had that yet.


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## inaclick

Lis said:


> My lad is good but I know if he ever retaliated he would be the one punished for it because he's a Staffie x and a big dog so obviously a little dog could never ever start something and it's always the big dogs fault. Drives me mad and for a while I did start taking out a chain lead so I could defend us. The big mutt is too much of a wimp and he's scared at the sight of small dogs now but he still be fantastic and do a down stay while three walk past him.
> 
> Was that lady smoking something? I've had owners chuckle but eat him? Not had that yet.


Well I have a staff-Aptb so you can imagine that no matter what happens it would always be my fault
That lady was having a laugh. 
I think the isues with these people is they don't realize dogs ignore each other's sizes when it comes to fight most of the time. Her dachsund (spelling) was as furious as can be and trying to clamp my dog's back feet.

It is not the first incident of this kind that has hapenned to me. People tend to leave their dogs unmuzzled and unleashed roaming around and charging at other dogs under weirdest excuses
"he's just playing"
""he's too small to harm anyone"
"he's too young and your dog is supposed to forgive him" 
and so on.

What I usually do is get a hold of the loose dog and keep him there by the neck - I guess CM would be proud eh... - while bitching my heart out at the owners.

My husband is not a talkative person at all, so if he sees the loose dog is clearly going for a bite (snarling, charging, etc) he um...

How should I put this more gently. I guess I can't.

He transforms them in a flying furball using his foot. Played some soccer as a kid so he's quite good at it.

There, I said it. Cause the funny thing about animal law in here is that is my muzzled, leashed pitbull would counterattack or respond, I would get a fine or my dog could be confiscated.
However if you kick the crap out of a dog, apparently you're not breaking any law at all.

Weird country we have.


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## goldilockz

Dude, tiny dogs are the most ferocious!


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## Alwaysbehind

goldilockz said:


> Dude, tiny dogs are the most ferocious!


No, they are just usually not trained properly.


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## Speed Racer

goldilockz said:


> Dude, tiny dogs are the most ferocious!


Yep, they sure are. One of the reasons for that is because their owners think Fuzzy snarling and trying to bite the crap out of someone is 'kyoot'.

Um, no it's not. If it's not acceptable in a larger dog, it's not acceptable in a pint sized version, either. A dog is a dog is a dog, regardless of size.

One of the nastiest dogs I ever met was a Min Pin. I had my Great Dane puppy in for her yearly shots, and like all puppies she was happy go lucky and curious. She wasn't even looking at the vile little beast, but it started snarling and snapping at her.

Its owner said, "You keep that vicious brute away from my baby! He's upset and nervous!" No lady, the damned thing is NASTY and you're not correcting it.

I gave her a look, gave her nasty beast a very pointed look, bent down to my dog and said, "Oh look Lexi, a treat with feet!" Then walked away.


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## CharliGirl

What angers me the most about that video is that Parelli doesn't use his own methods. I have seen this before while watching the DVD _In a Whisper_ where Pat Parelli, Josh Lyons, and a trainer named Craig (?) are each given an unbroken colt to work with. Using their own methods, they train the horses the best they can. At the end of their training time, they take the horses through an obstacle course, and the trainer with the horse with the best score wins.

In that video, Pat loops a lariat around the horse's neck, and wraps the rest of it around the horse's body. Then he proceeds to chase the horse around the round pen. Whatever happened to the 7 games he created? I watched closely, and he didn't use any of them. Same with this England video with Catwalk. He doesn't practice what he teaches, which makes me question the man himself.

I have been practicing the Parelli Level 1 program with my horses, Scotch in particular. They have all been responding well, and I have been learning so much about horse psychology. Would the horse in this video reacted differently if the 7 games were used? I have no doubt. You can't force or fast forward a horse--the only thing you'll get is negative progress. Act like you have all day, and it won't take as long. 

Even though I am relatively new to the Parelli program, I have worked with horses like the one in the video when I had a job at a TB breeding barn. Stallions and new geldings can be hard to handle. But if you know what you are doing and don't let your emotions get the best of you, the results will be positive when training and handling them. I feel like I could have handled the situation better than Pat, even though I have not been doing it as long as he has. If Pat would have just played with Catwalk the way he has taught thousands of people to, his results would have been dramatic. 

Maybe somebody should send him his own Level 1 kit so he can learn how *not* to communicate with horses.


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## inaclick

There's a saying in Romania

"Do what the priest preaches, don't do what the priest does" :lol:

I guess it could apply for Parelli, the Holy Pope of the Carrot Stick Order as well.


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## Spirithorse

YouTube - ParelliTube's Channel


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## ridergirl23

Yes spirithorse, someone showed that video a long way back in the thread (haha you probably missed it, this is a bi thread to follow xD ) 
I still dont agree with him, or like him, hes just really not my cup of tea i guess. Ive had some bad experiences with losing my temper at a horse, and i owned up to my mistakes and i still want to punish myself somehow for it, even though the horse forgave me the day after. I dont like people who dont admit their mistakes at all, everyone makes them, its only human.


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## coffeeaddict

> Quite honestly, after watching 99% of dog owners, I wish everyone would watch Cesar Millan. If they did, we'd have a LOT less problems.


Or, there would be a lot more people with puncture wounds heading to the hospital. I don't have anything against what Ceaser does with a dog that is being aggressive. 

The problem happens when the average dog owner watches this on TV, and then decides to apply it at home with Rufus the GSD that has been pushy, obnoxious, and even aggressive his whole life. Suddenly mom or dad walks in, pins him to the ground the next time he gets snarky and Rufus says "Hell NO!" and bites them.

It's like trying to tell a teenager that has never had any boundaries that she cannot stay out until 2am with her boyfriend. She will do it anyway because she isn't used to rules and has no respect.

Add that to the fact that most people have bad timing, and cannot read their own dog's behavior to save their lives and you have a recipe for disaster. 

I've gotten plenty of calls from people who have gotten bitten because the watched Ceaser and tried to apply his methods with their aggressive dog. 

It becomes even worse if they are trying to resolve aggression between two dogs. Then it's not the owners that get bitten, it's the dogs that end up in a fight and sometimes seriously injured that could have been prevented if the owners weren't trying to play trainer. 

It's not what he does that's the problem, it's how he promotes it to the masses and excepts people to follow the disclaimer. They won't. 

Can I pin a dog that's trying to bite me and be ok? Probably. Have done it before. Most people in the dog biz probably can. But I also don't use that as my first option. If I have to pin an aggressive dog, that means I've skipped steps in my training somewhere, didn't manage the situation properly, etc. 



> I will note my sister and fiance are much like me where they have followed his program, and they TAKE WHAT THEY NEED from it. They don't follow blindly, they listen to what he says and discuss it amongst themselves over how it may or may not make sense.


And that's good. If everyone did that it wouldn't be a problem and what I typed above would not apply. But many people DO follow blindly. They get caught up in the hype, the hero worship, the new-fangled words and think everything that comes out of Ceasers mouth is the gospel truth. 

If it were just a case of stupid owners getting bitten, it would not bother me. But in the end it's the dogs that pay because their people thought they could do it themselves like a home improvement project instead of consulting a professional.




> Yep, they sure are. One of the reasons for that is because their owners think Fuzzy snarling and trying to bite the crap out of someone is 'kyoot'.
> 
> Um, no it's not. If it's not acceptable in a larger dog, it's not acceptable in a pint sized version, either. A dog is a dog is a dog, regardless of size.


Yes. Yes. and did I say yes?

On a side note: holy cow this thread has taken on a life of its own! I did not expect this when I started it!


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## Spirithorse

I haven't read one post on this thread actually. Don't care to either.


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## Strange

inaclick said:


> There's a saying in Romania
> 
> "Do what the priest preaches, don't do what the priest does" :lol:
> 
> I guess it could apply for Parelli, the Holy Pope of the Carrot Stick Order as well.


^ ****. 

On the Parelli note, I honestly believe he's in it for money. The majority of people just follow everything he says without THINKING about it first and without using their brains. I feel like Parelli is common sense ("listen to your horse") wrapped up in a pretty price tag with an orange stick attached. I saw the video the OP posted last week and can't say I was surprised at all. I felt vindicated more than anything else.


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## coffeeaddict

Ok, so apparently I'm having a blonde moment and confused this thread with the other parelli thread I started in this forum in my last post. Oh well, I never claimed to be observant! lol


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## ninjahorse

good luck getting a bridle on that horse now! I wonder if the owner of the horse can press charges.


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## Spirithorse

The horse can be bridled fine now and has gone on to show the best he's ever shown.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Spirithorse said:


> The horse can be bridled fine now and has gone on to show the best he's ever shown.


Living proof that the cowboy method of "it's you or me hoss" DOES work!


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## corinowalk

coffeeaddict said:


> Ok, so apparently I'm having a blonde moment and confused this thread with the other parelli thread I started in this forum in my last post. Oh well, I never claimed to be observant! lol


 
LOL no talking about my paste eating ways on this one!


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## ridergirl23

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Living proof that the cowboy method of "it's you or me hoss" DOES work!


 hahaha exactly.


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## RioPony

Eliz said:


> ^
> Losing your temper is BAD when you're with horses. If you get mad, turn the horse out, and WALK AWAY. Calm down, take deep breaths and really think before you work with your horse when you get mad.
> 
> I watched two of clinton anderson's headshy videos on RFDTV, and he made ALOT of progress in just an hour. Wow, parelli's BS is really starting to catch up to him!
> 
> This is pretty sick as well:
> YouTube- Natural Horsemanship the Parelli way!!!!!!!!!!!!!



If I was that horse I wouldn't know what the .... she wanted of me and just freaked out. I thought these people were supposed to be good with horses. BS.


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## Jolly Badger

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Living proof that the cowboy method of "it's you or me hoss" DOES work!


LOL, exactly!

PP has said himself that he would NEVER use force (including tying, twitching, etc) to get results. . .yet that's _exactly_ what he did with Catwalk. All in the name of "showmanship" and trying to make himself look like some kind of miracle-worker. 

Only by doing something that he said himself is "akin to rape" was he able to get results. . .yet if any other trainer had done the same thing to the same horse, the Parellites would be screaming that the horse was being abused.

But no. . .this was the Most Enlightened One, and therefore everything he says is Truth, and everything he does is Righteous.

Give me a break. He was in front of a live audience, with the pressure to impress them and sell a bunch of his training gadgets, so he chose "getting results" over the "patience" and "partnership" he preaches about.


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## Spirithorse

Give me a break.


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## Speed Racer

You just don't like your idol being brought to task, Spirit.

We all know you think he's all that and a huge bag of Cheetos, but the rest of us aren't all starry-eyed and believe everything that comes out of his mouth.

The proof is in the videos, not what the Parellis are _saying._

None of us would care if he was just a regular trainer, but he spouts off about lurve, respect, 'being one with the horse', and denigrating anyone who doesn't follow his religion, um, _program._ 

He and Linda set themselves up as being _better_ and _kinder _than regular trainers, and it's just not true in any way, shape or form. 

_That's_ the issue we have with him and his sideshow. He obviously doesn't practice what he preaches, and it's now come back to bite him in the butt.

Of course, all his brainwashed minions will continue to throw their money at him, and believe everything their master tells them. It's sad, really.


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## justinebee

RioPony said:


> If I was that horse I wouldn't know what the .... she wanted of me and just freaked out. I thought these people were supposed to be good with horses. BS.


oh my gosh i was thinking the same thing! i didn't even exactly know what the heck her goal was...


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## Fluffy Pony

I quickly realized how self centered Pat was after hearing a speech he gave at a Ray Hunt Memorial clinic and all he did was talk about himself *rolls eyes* hellooooo its a memorial clinic about Ray hunt... not you.


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## justinebee

they seem like huge phonies to me, personally. i was reading an article on this event, and apparantly after the event occurred, they posted this very edited video to makeit seem like everything was just fine at the event (never showing the attempt to bridle him in front of the crowd). it just looks so scripted to me, especially when he is "having lunch" with catwalk..


----------



## Cobalt

I have never had a strong opinion about Parelli one way or the other...haven't ever looked closely at his methods. I think what bothered me the most about this entire incident was the written statement the Parelli's posted on their youtube channel. Talk about arrogant...all that, you just don't understand crap. Didn't win a fan in me, that's for sure.


----------



## RogueMare

omg Justinbee. I hate that video you posted! lol I think it was posted earlier on this thread. But honestly... He looks like he's making sure their video taping through the whole thing like when he keeps looking at the camera.... lol


----------



## justinebee

RogueMare said:


> omg Justinbee. I hate that video you posted! lol I think it was posted earlier on this thread. But honestly... He looks like he's making sure their video taping through the whole thing like when he keeps looking at the camera.... lol


exactly! lol he made sure the video looked like he was so gentle ad they already had such a bond.. it was just so fake and you could tell


----------



## Northern

*Can you say "contrived"?*

From PP's "Open Letter" & "follow-up" video, it would seem that he's a phony when it suits his purposes! Thus, he assumes that people are gullible. :think::roll:


----------



## ridergirl23

I loved the fake blood, made my day. And the logo is my favourite part, I never looked closely, but its a knight on a big black horse stabbing a rider in compotitions clothes who is holding a crop. LOL. I want that logo, its the best.


----------



## spirithorse8

*A true horseman*

_When 'all' of the clinician showmen and women proscribe to the following, then I might bend an ear their way.
They do not respect the horses, they do not trust the horses, and their methods are shallow.​
PRINCIPALS OF LIFE

"Integrity"
‘An uncompromising adherence to a code of moral, artistic, or other values: utter sincerity, honesty, & candor: avoidance of deception, expediency, artificiality, or shallowness of any kind’

"Respect"
‘To show consideration for, to avoid intruding upon, to notice with special attention, to regard to consider, to view, treat or consider with some degree of courtesy’

"Trust"
‘Confidence; a reliance or setting of the mind on the integrity, veracity, justice, friendship, or other sound principle of another person or thing’​_


----------



## steppy

I personally tried Parelli techniques in training my yearling a few years back. They work...sometimes. The second video posted here is a technique that I tried to use for months with my colt and got no where with. When they describe how it works, the book noted that you should NOT yank on the horses head. That the pressure should be a gradual increase, the motion annoying for the horse, not painful. In trying this with my foal, granted he was very thick headed, he just stood there and looked at me like 'what in the world lady?'. I used this method to teach him to back up, or to get out of my 'bubble' as that he liked to crowd.

Later on, I found a new method, not sure the name of it. When the horse starts to crowd, you wave a crop or whip infront of their chest, but in line so they can see it and tell them to back. If they don't back up, you pop them once on the chest. Not smack. Then you repeat. Took me maybe five minutes for him to get the hang of things and step back when I told him to. As opposed to several months with no progress the other way.

So, in theory, Parelli methods do work, and when you have the right person using them, they may work. But the way the Parelli's use their methods is just down right wrong andd cruel. If we as intelligent humans can't figure out what Mrs. Parelli was trying to tell this horse, no way is that horse going to know.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

corinowalk said:


> LOL no talking about my paste eating ways on this one!


It does not mean we can not start talking about your paste eating ways though.

:wink: :lol:

Mint paste......
And marker sniffing too.




Spirithorse the thing I do not get is, you support PP no matter what he does. Idolizing someone is great. Agreeing with someone's training method is great. Respecting your trainer is great. Being totally unwilling to admit that you or your idol ever does anything wrong is living in a fantasy world.


----------



## RogueMare

Alwaysbehind said:


> Spirithorse the thing I do not get is, you support PP no matter what he does. Idolizing someone is great. Agreeing with someone's training method is great. Respecting your trainer is great. Being totally unwilling to admit that you or your idol ever does anything wrong is living in a fantasy world.












just sayin....


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Love that, RogueMare!!!!


----------



## Speed Racer

RogueMare said:


>


OH YEAH!!!!! :clap:


----------



## spirithorse8

*BRAVO TO ROGUEMARE*

Koolaid, Koolaid tastes great; Koolaid, Koolaid can't wait !!!


----------



## draftrider

I would like to know how he got a gumline war bridle on the horse if the horse can't be bridled.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

draftrider said:


> I would like to know how he got a gumline war bridle on the horse if the horse can't be bridled.



Love.... he did it with lots of lufffff.


----------



## smrobs

Hey, I like Kool-aid. But I do require that mine does not have that special mind-sucking, brainwashing ingredient. LOL. Black cherry is my fave.


----------



## azarni

I'm just going to go make a second batch of popcorn :lol: This is great.


----------



## ridergirl23

HEY, dont diss kool-aid! i love kool-aid! exspecially the stuff that changes color.... I just dont like it when its mixed with stuff, like, brainwashing stuff. lol


----------



## Cobalt

RogueMare your koolaid image had me laughing out loud!!!


----------



## RogueMare

hehe thanks guys. :lol: I love kool-aid too actually, minus arsenic. 
This barn I'm going to intern at does some Parelli work, and I asked her stand on the situation, she actually said "I like SOME of Parelli's work, but I don't follow him blindly. I just added some of his techniques to my already successful starting program." 

My respect went way UP at this point.


----------



## Honeysuga

Eliz said:


> . (What kind of name is "carrot stick" anyways??)


"carrot stick" sounds a lot better on promotional dvd's than the "whack the horse" stick, plus they can make it pretty orange.... "wiggle wiggle bump" sounds better than "sling, sling, thump with a clasp in the blind side of your face" and the whole triple L thing sounds a lot better than the 4 d's(Demand, Dominate, Delude, rake in the DOUGH!), its all part of the "KooK- aide"...hahahaha

Im tellin yall, we need to start our own horseforum training program complete with our awesome linguistic skills and we will make MILLIONS! But I want a potato stick instead of a carrot one...

About the video... more PP nonsense and hipocracy no doubt, though I can attest to the frustration of a non bridling head and mouth shy horse, but even I think he took it too far too face maybe a little too much "parellescalation" technique? bahahaha But hey at least Linda was able to save her hubbys day with some of her "horseman hulk" techniques eh?

*Note to speed racer, I love you please adopt me.:lol:


----------



## Speed Racer

Honeysuga said:


> *Note to speed racer, I love you please adopt me.:lol:


Okay, but you have to clean stalls, mow the grass, and dust the furniture. Heck, just do the dusting. I HATE that! :wink:


----------



## Honeysuga

Its done, shall we draw up the paperwork?


----------



## Tessa T

Eliz said:


> ^
> Losing your temper is BAD when you're with horses. If you get mad, turn the horse out, and WALK AWAY. Calm down, take deep breaths and really think before you work with your horse when you get mad.
> 
> I watched two of clinton anderson's headshy videos on RFDTV, and he made ALOT of progress in just an hour. Wow, parelli's BS is really starting to catch up to him!
> 
> This is pretty sick as well:
> YouTube- Natural Horsemanship the Parelli way!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
I CANNOT believe this video! She is doing nothing for this horse accept making him afraid of her. How in the world did SHE become someone that others will listen to about horses?! It infuriates me when she keeps jerking his head like that. He is looking at something else because she wasn't making him want to be with her. Her body language was saying all the wrong things, and to top it off after all that meaningless time with the jerking she says good boy"? As if something was accomplished?! I may be really late to this thread, but I just had to get that out. Terrible methods.


----------



## Northern

*After end-of-rope-jail, how did things change?*

LP did her thing with Barney for about 8 minutes in original dvd, & the part that's incomplete, imo, is that all that she could do with Barney by the end of that time was keep him out at end of 12' rope, in "a box" (end-of-rope-jail-cell), with the unanswered question being, "How do we get Barney to go somewhere?", since we can't stand here forever with him jailed! They acted like they completed the demonstration of what to do!

A change had to have taken place between Barney & his owner after jail-time, & that was what we needed to see.


----------



## RogueMare

Honeysuga said:


> "carrot stick" sounds a lot better on promotional dvd's than the "whack the horse" stick, plus they can make it pretty orange.... "wiggle wiggle bump" sounds better than "sling, sling, thump with a clasp in the blind side of your face" and the whole triple L thing sounds a lot better than the 4 d's(Demand, Dominate, Delude, rake in the DOUGH!), its all part of the "KooK- aide"...hahahaha
> 
> Im tellin yall, we need to start our own horseforum training program complete with our awesome linguistic skills and we will make MILLIONS! But I want a potato stick instead of a carrot one...
> 
> About the video... more PP nonsense and hipocracy no doubt, though I can attest to the frustration of a non bridling head and mouth shy horse, but even I think he took it too far too face maybe a little too much "parellescalation" technique? bahahaha But hey at least Linda was able to save her hubbys day with some of her "horseman hulk" techniques eh?
> 
> *Note to speed racer, I love you please adopt me.:lol:



This whole thing just had me rolling in tears... ****!!


----------



## PechosGoldenChance

Wait...what's this so-called mind sucking ingredient in kool-aid?? I'm never drinking kool-aid again! lol


----------



## spirithorse8

*Carrot stick*

Egads, my newest client gave me a 'carrot' stick that was given to her.

Lets see, you could buy any of those orange sticks for finding your bike, atv, etc., or an orange cb antenna, or ???
A piece of fiberglass with a rubber handle, leather endpiece and oh yes, a piece of rope...............

Well, P. T. Barnum was right that there is a sucker born every day....and his favorite protoge makes sure that the motto rings true.....

Wait a minute, lets see....yes...Dennis Reis - Clinton Anderson....they also sell their version of the infamous 'carrot' stick......:shock:

So...P.T. Barnum has 3 protoges...............egads

! No Kool Aid logo goes here !


----------



## MeganAndPastick

Eliz said:


> ^
> Losing your temper is BAD when you're with horses. If you get mad, turn the horse out, and WALK AWAY. Calm down, take deep breaths and really think before you work with your horse when you get mad.
> 
> I watched two of clinton anderson's headshy videos on RFDTV, and he made ALOT of progress in just an hour. Wow, parelli's BS is really starting to catch up to him!
> 
> This is pretty sick as well:
> YouTube- Natural Horsemanship the Parelli way!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Is this supposed to help the horse to not be headshy ? Or is this somthiung else?


----------



## DSJ46

The problem with Parelli and anyone who claims to be a "whisperer" or mystic or have THE WAY is going to be that the minute THE WAY doesn't work (in front of an audience or camera) the whole ego of the great KNOWER goes on the line. How do humans act when their ego is on the line? Defensive and aggressive. This is why SO many trainers have to be cast out of the running up front: THEIR WAY and a really big ego. They are not training horses so much any more as they are trying to impress people and sell a product.


----------



## DSJ46

By the way, here is what I think is a good judge of what trainer will do well with your horse (outside of knowledge and experience, of course--both of which are paramount)....if the trainer treats YOU with patience and respect, then they are likely to treat the horse that way as well. If, like so many, they are condescending, pretend to have special knowledge, or treat you like you were the last turnip to fall off the truck...find someone else, NO MATTER HOW KNOWLEDGEABLE THE PERSON MAY SEEM...


----------



## EmilyAndBalthamos

PechosGoldenChance said:


> Wait...what's this so-called mind sucking ingredient in kool-aid?? I'm never drinking kool-aid again! lol


Jim Jones was the leader of a cult, and he convinced them to all drink kool-aid laced with arsenic (he also drank it himself). It was the greatest single loss of American civilians' life in a non-natural disaster until 9/11, and coincidentally it was on the same day as my birthday. :shock:


----------



## Northern

Your birthday & lots of other people's, as well--just ribbing you!


----------



## annaleah

I cannot believe what I just saw!!! i would've never thought in a million years that I would see pat or Linda act that way towards a horse!! This really makes me think.....There's no way I'd take my horse to them now!


----------



## savvylover112

annaleah said:


> I cannot believe what I just saw!!! i would've never thought in a million years that I would see pat or Linda act that way towards a horse!! This really makes me think.....There's no way I'd take my horse to them now!


Do you do Parelli then?


----------



## hijinx08

*Leadership?*

Personally saw (with my own 2 eyes) a 2 star Parelli Professional...? who was employed at the same ranch as I was last summer, suddenly jump off a young gelding she was supposedly training and proceed to beat on him, even kicking him. In my mind this is the biggest mistake a horseman can make...to strike repeatedly in anger. Total loss of control on her part. Not too sure where the leadership comes in? The next day, as I am sure she noticed I was watching, she said it was a misunderstanding and she now thought that the horse was just confused. In my opinion Pat Parelli is just a so-so student of some truly great horseman (Hunt, Dorrance etc.) with a business minded wife. Some of the techniques he uses have value, but he is not the inventor of horsemanship. There were many truly great horsemen before he turned it into a lucrative business. I think the Parelli's are great business people...but if the professional I saw last summer is any indication of the product the Parelli's are selling, I'm sure not buying!


----------



## DSJ46

"Parelli" is just like any other method. You take the good and leave the bad. There is no WAY. You take bits and pieces of all sorts of different approachs, and it HAS to be tailored to each individual horse. That is the key--knowing the horse you are working with and what works with that horse.


----------



## spirithorse8

*"the WAY"*

_Ah, but we humans are all wrong if we have the concept that there is no way and we should take a little here a little there._

_There is only one way and that is the way of the horse. Ask do not demand!_

"What encompasses the differences between _demand_ and _allow_. The rider when demanding does not let the horse nor him/her self to be responsive, instead they both are _reactive_. On the other hand, a horseman will allow, through the extreme sympathetic responsive patience of the rider, the horse to be _sympathetically responsive _to the requests of she or he.
Before we continue let us show the definitions of these critical five words as they apply to the riding and schooling of the horse.
_Demand_ means: “an insistent and peremptory request, made as a right”.
_Allow_ means: “give or provide”.
_Reactive_ means: “to produce a reciprocal effect, bodily resistance to an external stimulus, the tendency to oppose”.
_Responsive_ means: “sympathetically responding readily to some influence.”
_Sympathetically_ means: “acting with the same or similar feeling as another”." (c)


----------



## DSJ46

I absolutely agree...but each horse is an individual and that is what makes "horse listening" so important. There is no patented WAY (Parelli, Lyons, Roberts, etc.) that is the absolute method for training horses.

Yes, Spirithorse. I think we are saying the same thing. The horse--each individual horse--must be the guiding factor in how we train.


----------



## RogueMare

spirithorse8 said:


> _Ah, but we humans are all wrong if we have the concept that there is no way and we should take a little here a little there._
> 
> _There is only one way and that is the way of the horse. Ask do not demand!_
> 
> "What encompasses the differences between _demand_ and _allow_. The rider when demanding does not let the horse nor him/her self to be responsive, instead they both are _reactive_. On the other hand, a horseman will allow, through the extreme sympathetic responsive patience of the rider, the horse to be _sympathetically responsive _to the requests of she or he.
> Before we continue let us show the definitions of these critical five words as they apply to the riding and schooling of the horse.
> _Demand_ means: “an insistent and peremptory request, made as a right”.
> _Allow_ means: “give or provide”.
> _Reactive_ means: “to produce a reciprocal effect, bodily resistance to an external stimulus, the tendency to oppose”.
> _Responsive_ means: “sympathetically responding readily to some influence.”
> _Sympathetically_ means: “acting with the same or similar feeling as another”." (c)


Please, forgive me if this comes out rude... but your post just annoyed me, and I really don't know why for sure, but if I figure it out, I'll let you know..  

I agree that every horse should have a training method tailored to it, if you don't- thats when you get problem horses...


----------



## hijinx08

RogueMare, funny...we are from the same location! I believe SpiritHorse has good intentions, but comes across slightly condescending (if we don't know the meaning of allow at this stage of the game there could be trouble!) 

Certainly in agreement in regards to establishing individual relationships with horses, but if it was truly "natural" we wouldn't be laying a hand on them. Therefore the handle of "natural" horsemanship is really not suitable...but it fits our idea of what we want. 

No matter what discipline of whatever people follow, there are people who look after their horses and people who don't. (aka "care takers vs. air takers".) I believe this quote belongs to John Barrymore. 

The reality of it is we take these animals out of their natural environment for our use and pleasure (see exploitation)...on this happy note:lol:I sure am not being judgemental, as I am just as guilty as anyone. But in the long run, regardless of which method of training, showing, racing etc. I believe the most important goal is to be a "caretaker".

Enjoy your horses and try to return the favour.


----------



## CopperPennyPony

Wow. Terrible.


----------



## Speed Racer

I've seen pictures of spirithorse on an actual horse. To say I was completely underwhelmed doesn't even come close.

Which makes his pontifications and arrogance even more ridiculous, IMO.


----------



## Deej

I never did like his methods. Could never understand why my mare would need to play ball and laydown.. She is calm, respectful and will do anything I ask, without the silly games. There are other trainers out there that I like alot more.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_OK....so I just read all 30 pages of this. Holy moly. _

_With just 2 minutes of video on YouTube and at a poor quality, its hard to tell what really goes on so it is hard to comment on it. You can definately see that LPP are going against what they teach. _

_The thing is though....I cant really comment because I do correct some bad behavior of a horse by a cuff to the shoulder like biting if at first a loud HEY! QUIT IT! didnt work the first time. We also had a horse that we couldnt bridle and after trying everything we could think of, just tied him to a tree so he could fight with it, and 2 hours later (he had a bucket of water) when he was tired, was able to bridle him successfully. Later that night, I was still able to bridle him, and to this day, I dont think he has had a problem since. Obviously it wasnt the "ideal" way to do, but....thats just how it happened to go. No two people are going to train a horse the EXACT same way, except for people who follow a certain person(s) teachings. _

_BTW...I like Kool-Aid....as long as it has vodka in it!!_


----------



## DSJ46

I was going to post a vid of me riding today. I don't think I will. The (I think totally unnecessary) slam on "SpiritHorse on a horse" was in bad form. I agree that the post was a bit high-flown, but so was everything I wrote when I was young. I do think the post was well-intentioned, if he did misunderstand what I was saying a bit. But then to attack his riding was not good. We are all at different levels and learning. And I am truly no expert rider--I just rescued a racehorse and ride her--the best I can--as a trail horse. I learn more everyday and try to employ good riding/treatment philosophies, taking the best I can from each method I read about and tailoring them to my horse and our relationship.


----------



## Speed Racer

He's not young, DSJ. He's older than me, and that's say a LOT.

Go ahead and post your videos. You're not someone who's trying to come across as the end-all, be-all to horses.


----------



## DSJ46

Well, I don't know the history of the poster, but I know I can sound overly strong in my opinion sometimes (even when I don't mean to--sometimes especially when I don't mean to), and I just don't want anyone ever saying, "hey, what does he know? he rides for crap?" That being said, I will post the vids and Sassy's story in full (which some might find interesting--it was quite a journey) in a separate thread. Just remember. I am just a trail rider, bitless, shoeless, bareback, whose riding style is "staying in the middle and staying on." I learn little by little and adjust as I go.


----------



## DSJ46

I posted the vid and how to find her story on-line in Horse Riding. I don't know if this was the proper venue, but there it is. ; )


----------



## RogueMare

hijinx08 said:


> RogueMare, funny...we are from the same location! I believe SpiritHorse has good intentions, but comes across slightly *condescending* (if we don't know the meaning of allow at this stage of the game there could be trouble!)
> 
> Certainly in agreement in regards to establishing individual relationships with horses, but if it was truly "natural" we wouldn't be laying a hand on them. Therefore the handle of "natural" horsemanship is really not suitable...but it fits our idea of what we want.
> 
> No matter what discipline of whatever people follow, there are people who look after their horses and people who don't. (aka "care takers vs. air takers".) I believe this quote belongs to John Barrymore.
> 
> The reality of it is we take these animals out of their natural environment for our use and pleasure (see exploitation)...on this happy note:lol:I sure am not being judgemental, as I am just as guilty as anyone. But in the long run, regardless of which method of training, showing, racing etc. I believe the most important goal is to be a "caretaker".
> 
> Enjoy your horses and try to return the favour.


Thank-you. You hit the nail on the head! And its a good point, natural horsemanship would be leaving the horse feral/wild and observing from a distance.... lol But, natural horsemanship in the fact of "yeah, we put them in captivity, but we're still going to try to communicate on their level" makes more sense. It might have worked for the Native Americans here in America if it were attempted... lol. 




Speed Racer said:


> He's not young, DSJ. He's older than me, and that's say a LOT.


:shock: At least you admit it.... my Mother is still in denial that she's twenty-five..... almost twenty five years ago..


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

... But I always thought Natural Horsemanship was just riding naked???


----------



## All4Crystal

I don't know much about different trainers and I have to admit the videos posted at the beginning of this thread are the only ones I have ever seen by PP.
All I can say, not my horse not my decisions. If someone tried that on my horse I'd break their hands off.


----------



## PaintedFury

Yea, know it's amazing. When I first got my mare, as close as you could get to her head was her flanks. Yet in 30 minutes I was rubbing her head in the middle of a 20 acre pasture with out a halter or a lead rope. I never stressed her out, and she never walked away from me. Now, you can rub all over her head and inside her ears, which she actually really enjoys. There are more humane ways of getting a horse over being headshy!!! And it's ridiculous that anyone would resort to those methods to fix a simple problem. And as for the video of Linda, it helps if you actually teach the horse what wiggling the rope means first!!!!


----------



## All4Crystal

Yea, that's pretty much the same thing I did. I let my mare smell the bridle and rubbed it all over her. 
The yanking on the leadrope in second video I do not get. My horse wouldn't put up with it. She would rear up on her for sure.


----------



## JekkaLynn

I love this thread. I actually made myself a bowl of popcorn to eat while reading the drama. For someone to say using a twitch is rape then use a twitch in a demonstration leaves me doubting anything that person says.


----------



## JekkaLynn

wyominggrandma said:


> What a puppy learns from 8 to 12 weeks is the most important time in its life. It will take all socializing and training with it forever, when folks don't socialize and take it around people before 12 weeks it will lost a large portion of its human interaction and social skills. Likewise, when most people sell puppies at 6 weeks, they lose the best time for a puppy to learn the social skills that happen in a litter and from mom, "you bite and I will bite back" ouch it hurts.
> But ANY puppy can learn to sit, down, stay, heel and do basic skills before 12 weeks and a majority can be house broken at that age also, it takes patience, dilligence and kindness. You don't need CM to train a puppy and you certainly do not need to choke one down to train it. A dog doesn't need to glazed look in its eyes to learn to be a good dog.


The two best dogs I have ever had the pleasure of working with where left with their mom, dad, and a second adualt male dog unil they where 3 months old. They where left to run loose on a farm and be dogs. Fed by people and pet a tiny bit but otherwise left to be puppies. I figured this way of raising them out by accident with the first puppy and asked for the next dog I got 6 months later to be raised the same way. At three months old I took them home and started training them. They where housebroken their first night indoors. In two days they would sit, come, and stay on command. They where left unfixed and at about 6 months the first tried to be dominant. I put him on the grounhd and held him there till he gave in. He never challenged me again. He isn't a robot and he does hold genuine affection for me. He is my gaurd dog and has defended me without ever actually biting anyone from people who have tried to take advantage of my small size. He has never had any problems interacting with people or other dogs. The second puppy I tried this with died of a stomache ulcer at 6 months but up till the day he died was an amazing dog too. I'm not saying that other methods are wrong or trying to disagree with anyone I just wanted to mention my approach at it and see if anyone else had tried something similar.


----------



## JekkaLynn

Alwaysbehind said:


> That sounds like the same type of person who would be all up in arms if your leashed dog bit her precious little dog when her dog was the one acting like an idiot.


My husband got us a second dog, the younger brother of my dog who was raised with him then they where seperated when we got married and both sulked so he got me the puppy. We where on our honey moon just taking day trips with the dogs and a lady walked over with her ****zu and started talking to us. The ****zu was the same size as the puppy and started biting and snarling at it. The leash was extendable and ours wasn't so it was able to corner our puppy. The lady cheered it on while my husband tried to seperate them. My dog a 6 month old 60 pound mutt tensed and I grabbed his collar and held on as he launched himself snarling at the ****zu it jumped back and my dog planted himself between me and the puppy and the lady and her ****zu snarling. She walked off in a huff. Durning the encounter my big dog barked and snarled. He pushed the little dog away without biting it. The little dog barked snarled and bit my dog but my dog was the bad one.


----------



## inaclick

Well this is why I apply the "soccer talent" technique.
If my dog would bite another dog, I would get a fine and the dog would be confiscated and possibly killed, even if in self defense.

However if I kick the crap out of the neurotic furball, there is absolutely no legal charge that can be done on me.

....:twisted:


----------



## RogueMare

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ... But I always thought Natural Horsemanship was just riding naked???



bahahahahahaha :rofl:


----------



## smrobs

Ladies and Gentlemen........the founder of Natural Horsemanship!!!







LADY GODIVA!!!!


----------



## Alwaysbehind

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ... But I always thought Natural Horsemanship was just riding naked???


Horse naked or rider naked?

Rider naked sounds itchy. Very itchy.


----------



## Polo Pony Design

Not on a soft horse

errr... what?!


----------



## RogueMare

Alwaysbehind said:


> Horse naked or rider naked?
> 
> Rider naked sounds itchy. Very itchy.


----------



## taylor1302

*pat perelli is not...*

Pat Parelli is not abusive to horses, I bet that wasn't even him, it said the video was edited, I highly doubt the people would just walk out and leave after they would have payed ALOT for a once in a lifetime opportunity, and he would not go on for 2 hours, and if the people say they left how do they know it went on for 2 hours!?


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## dressagexlee

Then why did Harley Face himself make a statement on it, oh trollish one with a single post?


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## Alwaysbehind

taylor1302 said:


> Pat Parelli is not abusive to horses, I bet that wasn't even him, it said the video was edited, I highly doubt the people would just walk out and leave after they would have payed ALOT for a once in a lifetime opportunity, and he would not go on for 2 hours, and if the people say they left how do they know it went on for 2 hours!?


Now that is an amusing defense to this whole thing. It was not him. It just looked like him. 

Very creative, I must say.


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## smrobs

Do you personally know him? Do you follow him around all hours of the day? If not, then how do you know he wouldn't go on like this for 2 or 3 or 9 hours if he lost his cool (like he did in the vid). Hate to say it (well, not really), but anyone who has actually seen what PP looks like can tell that is him in the vid. I have a knack for recognizing people based on body shape and the way they move, and that _was_ him. There are even some parts where it is clear that it is him because you can see the gigantic squirrel on his lip.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Closest I will come to going commando on a horse is a pair of shorts LOL.


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## taylor1302

Wow I was just putting my opinion out there, ms. I know what every person looks like from body shape!!! So whtever 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RogueMare

I think you should just stop at two posts.... Just a suggestion though... lol.


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## Jolly Badger

smrobs said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen........the founder of Natural Horsemanship!!!
> 
> LADY GODIVA!!!!


Naahhh. . .she was using a bit and bridle. . .and, from the looks of that picture the horse was MAJORLY hyperflexed.

Could it be. . .she was practicing. . .ROLLKUR?!?:shock:

:lol:


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## ridergirl23

taylor1302 said:


> Pat Parelli is not abusive to horses, I bet that wasn't even him, it said the video was edited, I highly doubt the people would just walk out and leave after they would have payed ALOT for a once in a lifetime opportunity, and he would not go on for 2 hours, and if the people say they left how do they know it went on for 2 hours!?


 If it wasnt him he wouldnt have replied the way he did, he would have said: 'thats not me' not make a whole video on 'why' he did that. 
So it definitly was him, someone even posted him response on this thread... hmmm, it would probably take a while to find! this thread is so big! lol


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

EmilyAndBalthamos said:


> Jim Jones was the leader of a cult, and he convinced them to all drink kool-aid laced with arsenic (he also drank it himself). It was the greatest single loss of American civilians' life in a non-natural disaster until 9/11, and coincidentally it was on the same day as my birthday. :shock:


He actually didn't drink it himself...the coward ended up shooting himself instead. Sick *******...so sorry it happened on your b-day


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## Epic

*I hate parelli anyway*

so in his "apology" Parelli states that this was one of the three hardest horses he has ever dealt with. He should meet my boys! I have two 17 hand geldings who are head shy. One just never had his ears worked with and the other was ear twitched and ended up traumatized. Either of them would have thrown him across the pen. This horse wasn't super difficult, he just wasn't being handled appropriately. Both of my horses have their ears worked with daily to work on this problem. If someone just walked up and grabbed them they would lose it. NOT SMART. Trying to rush a scared horse does not work. Someone who has dedicated their life to "helping horses and humans" should know this. But, Parelli has a way of showing his idiocy.


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## Lollypoppah

*>>>>>>>>>OK SORRY I DIDNT READ ANY COMMENTS/POST AFTER THE VIDEO SO SORRY IF IM ALREADY REPEATING SOMEBODY ELSE<<<<<<<<<*

OK, i like parelli, its a good way to start off natural horsemanship, then move away from and direct into somebody elses training. (personally, i think people treat it like a religion) ANYWAYS.. >sorry< /blushes. i noticed how Linda when the horse is doing not what she wants she RUSHES STRAIGHT IN FOR A PHASE 10 AND A HALF! (making horse frightened, he doesnt want this ***** to keep pullling hard, jurking and the lead rope clip to hit him in the jaw... lol if i was that horse i would of already double barrelled linda and told her to get F#CKED!) the horse is looking at something... play the friendly game? he looks because he wants to know whether this thing whatever he is looking at (could even be the camera man) to make sure what ever it is isnt going to hurt him.. *DUAH* thats what you say in every other video Linda?! move somewhere else? who cares, you have a whole farm to work on and if you even gave then horse the chance to look at it in the first place then maybe he would loose interest, relise it wont hurt him and lock on to the handler... I also noticed when she pushes the horse out away from her and cirlces him and invites him into the safety spot in the middle (where she is) there is no friendly game...


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## EmilyAndBalthamos

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> He actually didn't drink it himself...the coward ended up shooting himself instead. Sick *******...so sorry it happened on your b-day


Oh, I'm sorry for my mistake!


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## RogueMare

Jolly Badger said:


> Naahhh. . .she was using a bit and bridle. . .and, from the looks of that picture the horse was MAJORLY hyperflexed.
> 
> Could it be. . .she was practicing. . .ROLLKUR?!?:shock:
> 
> :lol:


Bah! Watch what you say! You may be on the next list of getting sued! (For those of you who don't know.... Anky van Grunsven Sues Eurodressage | eurodressage ) Be careful who you talk bad about... Lady Godiva might be friends with Anky!!


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## Solon

RogueMare said:


> I think you should just stop at two posts.... Just a suggestion though... lol.



Ha ha!! Two thumbs up!


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## nobody2121

*the sad part is all these posts about Parelli*

pretty obviuos none of the people that had posts about Parrelli had actually did much work with horses, such as start colts, bridle difficult stallions, horses that rear, horses that buck, start mustangs, gather cattle on the colt they sytarted, work with a difficult stud that throws his head, a horse that will NOT load, a horse that will NOT unload, one that will chase you out of a box stall, horse that kicks, one that bites, one that runs off!
Unless you have done all of these and much more, I ma sorry to say you have NO business making comments!


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## inaclick

nobody2121 said:


> Unless you have done all of these and much more, I ma sorry to say you have NO business making comments!


Mr /Ms Nobody,

I have no business running into someone's barn and making comments about their horsemanship.
however, on a public forum, I do have all the rights, liberty and power to make comments about anything, including "natural" horsemanship and your most worshiped idol, Parelli

Seriously, the biggest turn off for me was this forum, in regards to Parelli. More exactly, the people who were against Parelli seemed most of the times fun, open minded and opened to argumentative discussion.

But if you make a compilation of quotes from smost of the Parelli defender users, you end up with a bunch of dogmatic "HOW DARE YOU PICK ON MY CARROT STICK GOD" whiny phrases, with no solid arguments except of "no you" or "shut up, I think you've hurt my feelings"

Your mission is truly accomplished. Before reading this thread I didnt know much about Parelli, I was only wary of this huge marketing shiny thing that simply seemed too good to be true.

After bumping in these rabid defenders all over the place, I decided there's no way in hell I'd want to be associated with anything related to that guy or / and his followers.

I just can't help imagining a mob of self righteous people armed with carrot sticks and yelling BURN THE INFIDELS.


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## nobody2121

*Not a Parelli fan*

Although he is one of the best Horsemen I have seen and cant think of any that I havent riden with.
Unless you have tried to fix severe problem horses what would a person have to comment on, different game when you leave the stands and audience and get out and actually play the game!


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## inaclick

Mr Nobody,

Many of the users of this forum are actually experienced horsemen / women, with decades of horsemanship on their back. Natural or not.
Others are here to learn and not only about horses. They're also here to learn about horsemen, tack, horse health, etc.

When you learn, you ask questions. You argument, you wonder, you dispute. This is how the learning process takes place, both in academic institutions and in internet-leisure places, such as this public forum. (cause this is what this place is, I repeat, nothing more)

A forum also means per se "a place to express opinions".

Should some opinions be wrong in your eyes, please join the debate


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## Golden Horse

inaclick said:


> I just can't help imagining a mob of self righteous people armed with carrot sticks and yelling BURN THE INFIDELS.


ROTFLMAO you may have to line me up by the bonfire, I was OK until someone asked me what 'horsonality' or however you spell it, that MR G has.


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## spirithorse8

*Nobody 2121*

Excuse me and others for giving a **** about the psychological and physiological well being of the horses.

I would challenge the Parellis any day...............they are not horsemen, they are reincarnations of PT Barnum.............they do not even have a clue the just how subtle horse communications really are.

I have loaded BAD horses in twenty minutes without running them around or jerking on halters or using whips.
I have started young horses, I have taken mad cow horses who hated men because of the abuse they suffered and turned them into understanding compassionate horses.

I know there are many others here whom also can do what I do........


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## Northern

Imo. the sad thing is that people polarize into the love or hate PP factions. 

PP has some good principles in his teaching, & some very usable groundwork & horse psychology. 

The glaring problem at this point is that he abandoned HIS OWN principles in his session with Catwalk, PLUS gave us no real explanation.

That leaves us in the unhappy position of doing as PP says to do, when we know it's right, but not doing as PP did with Catwalk.

I'd rather adapt to that though, than toss out the baby with the bath water.


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## farmpony84

I really think it's time to close this one.


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