# Bad Habits



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

First off I am not a profetional horse trainer. I have contacted a horse trainer though, she has not gotten back to me yet.

Anyways, my coming two year old has some began with some bad habits that I would like to stop NOW!!! before they become uncontrolable and dangerous, and something she will do while riding when she is broke...

Before I tell you what her bad habits are, I want to get something straight so you understand where I am coming from. She is my first horse and by no means going to get rid of her for any reason. Also, I know I might be doing something wrong, which is what I want you to tell me, or give me tips or pointers on how to approach each situation in a better way. Everytime she does something wrong, I will correct her, but I agree that I might be the reason she did that problem. 

First off, her name is Breeze. Her first bad habit is rearing. Not all the time. She has reared 3 times in the past month, all for different reasons. The first 2 times were one after another but I understand that was my fault. I ran to the gate in her pen and she thought I was playing with her. The second time though, we were out on a walk, all of the sudden her eyes go back like she was scared and she went up. There was nothing that I know was there that could have spooked her though. There were no other times that she actually reared, but tried to, I stopped her. It was right before I was done with her, she knew I was going to leave and it was like she was testing me, I stopped her and got mad. All three times she reared, and the times she attempted to rear, I got mad at her and snapped the lead rope and halter a few times and also slapped her on the butt.

Secondly, another bad habit is biting. When I first got her in September 2012 she would try and bite me (but never actually did) and I could lightly punch her in the nose and tell her NO! I thought we got over that. But again, when I act like I am going to get up on her(never do just act like it), or *sometimes* when I pick up her feet, she will bite me in the legs. I did think this habbit was over and I do not know why it is back. 

Lastly, she threatens to kick me. When I say threatens I mean she seems like shes telling me 'you better move and not make me mad, I will kick you'. This happens after I get mad at her for rearing of attempting to rear. I do not know why. She will turn her butt to me and pin her ears. She has never actually kicked me and never done this before. 

It seems like the more I get mad at her, the more madd SHE gets and I want it to stop.


P.S. I try and go out there everyday. When I miss a day, and go the next, it seems like she is mad because I skipped a day. :?: 

Please help!


----------



## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm also no professional, but it sounds to me like your horse knows that she can back you up & uses it to her advantage whenever possible. 

As far as the rearing goes, I will let other more knowledgeable people advise you on that as it is so very dangerous & I've tried a million different techniques on a few different horses & it really comes down to why she's doing it. I really can't advise because, as I said, I'm no professional, I just do what I feel depending on the horse I'm with & have been called an idiot numerous times. 

As far as the biting goes, my horse used to do that, I actually have multiple posts on here about it, because I was at my whits END with him. It hurt my feelings more than anything because he seemed to pick it up during a 19 day separation we had.

He would do it while I was cinching the girth & sometimes just when I was putting the saddle on him. I used an empty ketchup bottle to cure him of this. I am so totally NOT kidding. I'm not sure how to link to a thread or I would show you the ones I had posted. 

Whenever he pinned his ears back aggressively, I would shoot air into his face. It flipped him completely out & it took only a few times for him to get the idea. It got to the point that I wouldn't have to even put it by him, but just the noise that came from the air puffing out of the bottle was enough. Soon enough, he was over playing the games & just quit.

Believe me, I tried EVERYTHING, I was reduced to tears wondering why my previously gentle giant hated me so much. Why did he want to bite me? Well, of course, after making sure it was NOT something physical & that he was in no pain, I realized he was just doing it... because he thought he COULD. 

But, you gotta watch super carefully how her body is reacting to what you're doing because you have about a 3 second window of punishment before it just becomes a random, futile punishment.

Also, try backing her up. For aggressive behavior, this is ALWAYS the first thing I try. This for both the biting & the possible kicking. Again, barring that she is NOT in pain, of course. Back that booty up. I've backed my daughters horse around the barn, out the gate, down the drive way & back again. Now all I have to do is say 'BACK IT UP!' and he knows he's been a fool & acts right in a hurry.

I hope anything I've said has helped, even if just a little bit. I know that the biting thing, if you screw around with it too much, it can become a game to a horse & if you back up when she tenses... she knows she's winning.

I hope you get someone more knowledgeable to advise, especially as far as your rearing issue goes.

Good Luck!!!


----------



## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

For whatever reason that horse has zero respect for you. Hard to advise you what exactly you should be doing differently on an Internet forum. It's good that you've contacted a trainer, as getting professional help is the best option. Even if the trainer you've contacted doesn't get back to you, keep trying to find one. And be prepared to shell out some dough for a good trainer. Since you're now the owner of this young horse, you're responsible for its education.

Two yr olds are like kids - constantly learning and testing boundaries. A lot to handle for your first horse. If you could work with a well-trained, quiet, older horse, that would help you figure out how they're supposed to behave and how you should behave.

Good luck.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thank you. She is usually so good. This is why I think it is partly me that is causing some of it to happen. 

However, when she is not bad, she is the perfect horse (well to me anyways) I can get her to back up without force most of the time and she leads well most of the time. I am working on yeilding her forequarters when she is excited and speeds up. Some of the time she will start to trot. I will stop her and turn her around and walk away from where she wants to go. I might try the air in the face thing. 

I do admit, I do get a little mad sometimes when she does something like that and get overly mad at her and my body language is not used properly. I need to really work on that. It only happens if she is constantly doing stuff she KNOWS she is not suppose to do. 

I also, However do not let her get away with stuff like that.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

LisaG said:


> For whatever reason that horse has zero respect for you. Hard to advise you what exactly you should be doing differently on an Internet forum. It's good that you've contacted a trainer, as getting professional help is the best option. Even if the trainer you've contacted doesn't get back to you, keep trying to find one. And be prepared to shell out some dough for a good trainer. Since you're now the owner of this young horse, you're responsible for its education.
> 
> Two yr olds are like kids - constantly learning and testing boundaries. A lot to handle for your first horse. If you could work with a well-trained, quiet, older horse, that would help you figure out how they're supposed to behave and how you should behave.
> 
> Good luck.


Sorry, but she does have respect for me, a lot of respect. She does try to test me and see where her boundries are. I refuse to say she has no respect for me, no matter what anybody says, because I am the one that is working with her. 

I have been around horses all my life, we just could not get one until now. I have worked and trained and rode lots of young horses. Just because this is MY first horse, doesn't mean I cannot handle a younger horse. 

That trainer is someone I know very well and use to ride with her, but she is however, not a professonal. There is only one other horse trainer in the area (a profetional) but I can no where near afford her rates. The only thing I would be able to do is maybe make a deal for her to HELP me with her if I work for her. I have no time for that right now. 

Thank you though, for your opinion.


----------



## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm gonna call a kettle black on this one. I honestly think a first time owner would be better with a 30yr old been there done that horse. I'm in no way telling you to get rid of your filly. More suggesting that you familiarize yourself with a horse that responds as he/she should to the proper command. So you could learn from the horse and your filly from you. I only feel the need to tell you this is for your knowledge. My daughters first mount was a almost 2 pony. Cute lil thang. But..... Had only been haltered a few times. NO training at all. We made a deal, she ride that pony, she'd get to ride. She got kicked, bit, stomped on, bucked off, drug and honestly worked for it. The day that pony left  two girls rode her. If it matters my lil girl is now 7. That was 2 yrs ago she got the pony. Pony left around April. This year. But while she broke out her pony, she handled and worked around 13 other horses. Went all summer doin ground work Some broke some not. Actually cleaned a studs pen. Him in it. I guess I see a lot of issues with your handling of a young horse and would hope an adult would be there to help you. I know grown men who won't bother breaking out because of the time and risks. Please be carefull and there has to be someone who can help you. p.s. that took me almost exactly an hour to type! I'd much rather spend an hour riding
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Phly said:


> I'm gonna call a kettle black on this one. I honestly think a first time owner would be better with a 30yr old been there done that horse. I'm in no way telling you to get rid of your filly. More suggesting that you familiarize yourself with a horse that responds as he/she should to the proper command. So you could learn from the horse and your filly from you. I only feel the need to tell you this is for your knowledge. My daughters first mount was a almost 2 pony. Cute lil thang. But..... Had only been haltered a few times. NO training at all. We made a deal, she ride that pony, she'd get to ride. She got kicked, bit, stomped on, bucked off, drug and honestly worked for it. The day that pony left  two girls rode her. If it matters my lil girl is now 7. That was 2 yrs ago she got the pony. Pony left around April. This year. But while she broke out her pony, she handled and worked around 13 other horses. Went all summer doin ground work Some broke some not. Actually cleaned a studs pen. Him in it. I guess I see a lot of issues with your handling of a young horse and would hope an adult would be there to help you. I know grown men who won't bother breaking out because of the time and risks. Please be carefull and there has to be someone who can help you. p.s. that took me almost exactly an hour to type! I'd much rather spend an hour riding
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I may not have owned a horse before, but I have leased them, trained them and been around them all my life. 

However, this is by no means answering my question.


----------



## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

The horse doesn't have respect for you if she is rearing, biting, and trying to kick you.

Why won't you get rid of this horse? You are a new horse owner and it sounds like you are very novice. You say that you've been around horses for a long time but you are making some very novice choices in how you handle and behave around this horse.

It has a lot of holes in its training, I can tell you that now. That this is a coming two year old and it leads "most of the time" but forges ahead and basically does not listen to you. The horse is almost two. There is no reason why she shouldn't lead like a pro unless she came out of the wild less than a month ago.

Horses do not have the same thoughts as people. Most horses are not going to mind if they are not messed with every day or ridden every day, so don't keep making excuses for the horse.

Stop taking guff off this horse. Stick a chain over her nose and when she tries to bite you, or kick you, or rears up, make her think her stupid, insignificant world is ending and make sure she knows you are the one that is ending it. You are "getting mad" but you certainly aren't mad enough if this bad behavior is going on. This horse's behavior is not acceptable. 

If you can't correct it, and can't get a trainer to correct it, then get rid of it and get something broke.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

spurstop said:


> The horse doesn't have respect for you if she is rearing, biting, and trying to kick you.
> 
> Why won't you get rid of this horse? You are a new horse owner and it sounds like you are very novice. You say that you've been around horses for a long time but you are making some very novice choices in how you handle and behave around this horse.
> 
> ...



Like i said no way am I getting rid of her. She was wild as a yearling. By me saying leading most of the time is not getting excited over things. Sorry for posting this because this is not what I am wanting to hear. She is just starting her training now!!!!!! I am not making any excuses for the horse.

P.S. You must not have much experience with horses if YOU are telling ME to get rid of a horse. THAT IS NEVER THE ANSWER!!! 

I do not want to hear what you have to say, because it hasn't helped me so far... Sorry, but its true. You haven't met her so you don't know her.


----------



## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

How old are you? You aren't going to get very far if you just stick your fingers in your ears and go "Lalalalalala!" any time someone says something you don't want to hear.

Hope you have good health insurance.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not your age, you have no right asking me that. I don't stick my fingers in my ears and ignore whatever i don't want to hear.

You seem to have less experience them me it you are telling me to get rid of her, as you should know, like i said, that is never the answer. 

Also, she is just starting her training and she was a wild yearling 2 months ago when I got her. No human contact whatso ever. Like I said, its not like she rears all of the time.

I would like someone with more experience then you to come up with a better situation. 

Thank you.


----------



## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

Ah, I have now seen by reading through some of your other (multiple) topics on this horse in the last two days that you are 15. Enjoy being 15, it's a lot of fun. 

However, since you already know everything you need to know at 15 and clearly have a lot more experience and broader knowledge base than I do, I won't bother replying to your threads anymore.

Good luck.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thank you. That is all I have to say, and I also think it is sad how you have to do that to get answers.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

You started saying that you believe you must be doing something wrong, and then you are resisting everything that is said to you. 

Your horse does not respect you. Sure you might be able to get the horse to do some things, but it's pretty clear from this behavior that you have sometimes cooperation but not respect.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

AlexS said:


> You started saying that you believe you must be doing something wrong, and then you are resisting everything that is said to you.
> 
> Your horse does not respect you. Sure you might be able to get the horse to do some things, but it's pretty clear from this behavior that you have sometimes cooperation but not respect.


I am not denying anything I don't need to. I know I think I am doing something wrong, but nobody has given me anything to use in my training with Breeze.


----------



## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

Breezy2011 said:


> I am not denying anything I don't need to. I know I think I am doing something wrong, but nobody has given me anything to use in my training with Breeze.


? There were quite a few suggestions for you. I think you're taking offense because we are trying to get to the why of the problem so that we can offer better solutions. Anyhow besides mine I saw quite a few suggestions for help so I don't understand why you are saying that we are not answering your question.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

In a way some people are, but nobody (besides for the biting problem) have given me any solutions or attempts to stop this behavior. Everybody has been telling me to get rid of her which i dont get why nobody read

I AM NEVER GOING TO GET RID OF MY HORSE!!!

Sorry for yelling, but its true.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am over four times your age. 
Since I was your age I have worked professionally with horses.
This, I am sure, gives me the advantage of being 'experienced'.

In your question you now admit that you were at fault by running having the filly chase you - when this was pointed out to you originally you then said that you were not running and got very defensive and accused people of being rude in their replies when they were being factual. Now you are doing the same. 
_Please take in what is written and understand that no matter what you have done with whatever type of horses you are still a novice and only starting out on the path of learning about horses. 
_
Your horse looks on you as a playmate, an equal and not as a leader. 
She is doing what most young horses do and that is questioning your authority.
She is doing this by continually inviting you to play with her. 

You know that this is wrong for her to act this way and you know it has to be stopped but you do not know how.

I can tell you that I have young horses here, none of the youngsters are handled a lot as I have little time but, not one would dream of trying to bite, rear or kick, they know a lot better than that because what handling they have had has always been correct and any misbehaviour corrected hard and fast.

You have to be a lot firmer with this filly. You have to correct any unwanted behaviour immediately, firmly and fairly fitting the punishment to the crime.

Training does not start when there is misbehaviour but with every interaction we have with that animal.
It is great to have a horse that charges to us when we go to the field but, that is fine as long as they keep out of your space. Correct her every time she gets to close, correct her when she does not stand still, correct her for moving towards the stall door before she is invited. Correct her for not moving over when you want to get in her space, correct her when she is slow to pick up a hoof when you ask, all of the above can be done with simple verbal commands, a low determined voice and a poke on the chest with a finger. 
_It is these little things that matter and stop the major things from happening._

When she rears you need to be carrying a stick and when she goes up you need to be _very quick _ and whack her hard across the back legs and then chase her in a circle around you making sure that she knows you are _very cross_ but at the same time you must not actually allow your heart rate to change or actually get angry.
By attacking her back legs you are attacking her only means of support and this will frighten her. 
When a horse goes to bite it will get an open handed slap across the flat of its muzzle. This will be instant and hard. It will not hurt them other than a slight sting if done hard enough, and will not make her head shy.

Stop giving her any treats unless they are in her feed bowl. A scratch in her favourite place is reward enough for good behaviour. 

The tougher you are _providing it is fair_, the more secure a horse is. 

It will take a while of you being consistent before she learns that you are the leader and not her best friend. Boundaries have to be very tight to start with and then, as she gets trustworthy and respectful in a genuine way, these boundaries can widen.


----------



## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Well spoken
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thank you. This is what I was looking for. 

You don't have to worry about treats, she has never had an apple or carrot or anything like that, (even if I try to give it to her, she doesn't take) 

Although, when she does run circles around me, she will pin her ears if I do it to much, so I do it even more, then she tries to bolt, I stop her and do it even more. Today I was making her run circles around me for 10 mins. I should have done it more. 

Tomorrow we will be spending the day re training and I will be telling her who is boss. And correcting bad behaviour. 

Thank you soooo much!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No, you are wrong! Running circles around you is not good for her either in a way of punishment or for her joints. 
No punishment should go on for ten minutes or longer. It should be short and sharp making her think that she is going to die for as long as it takes for her to show submission and then carrying on as if nothing has happened. 
Arm waving going into her space making her yield, growling at her, a couple of jerks on the rope or even whacking her with the rope if she is slow to move away from you, but, all should be done and dusted in less than 30 seconds.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I am not saying that getting rid of your horse is the best move at this time. I do resent the idea that its "never the answer". There are cases where the horse and owner are not a good match. For them to remain paired would be detrimental to both their growth. There are also rare horses that are psychopaths that need to be euthanized. The horse world is full of heart breaking decisions made for the best of the horse or the best of the persons involved. To say you will never make one of those decisions is false. 

I don' t think you need to rehome this mare yet; however, I would not discount it. I see a lot of young people with their first horse come on these threads. A portion of their posts are about dangerous horses (horses that flip themselves, charge and bite). These horses are clearly going to hurt these people and the all say "I will never give this horse up its my baby/ and or its my job to fix it". I am not a plumber and it would be bad for me to try to fix my own plumbing. You are over-horsed and need to find a trainer in my book. One day will not fix your training holes. In most cases, you are not going to go out and have a come to jesus meeting with your mare and never have to worry about that behavior again. This summer I had a come to Jesus meeting with my 4 year old gelding at least three times a week for a month. Things like not listening on the lead, pushing for food, trying to nip etc. He is either really smart or really dumb and I am trying to be really consistent. Call a trainer but understand that you may come to a time when you continuing to work with this horse will be bad for the horse. In which case, you will have to make the right decision for the horse and hope that its not so dangerous (rearing, biting, kicking) that other will not be scared off it. The other reason I say trainer is that you may be giving cues that the Breezy is picking up on. We can't see you or your training and thus its hard to give ideas on how to fix it. I think the ketchup bottle is great; however, I have a mare that would think thats okay after a time or two. Its all about what works for your horse and without seeing the horse/handler dynamic its difficult to give solutions. 

In the mean time, I agree with foxhunter. Make your corrections quick but powerful. Think of yourself as a coiled snake, you strike at the wrong behavior and then just as quickly relax. I am sorry if I have said things you don't want to hear or said them in an offensive manner. Free advice is sometimes worth what you pay for it; however, its advice.


----------



## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

You may not want to re-home your horse, but if she hurts you, your parents might.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Breeze, whether you like it or not the main reason horse misbehaves is because you are not a leader and she doesn't respect you as one. I got my horses as yearlings too, and they went through this stage as well. All I can say is when my horse tried to kick me she got a broom handle on her butt. Hard. She was NOT afraid of me, but the lesson was learned. 

As for biting the good slap on a chest with very firm "No" was enough for me to stop it. I remember reading here that you can keep toothpick in your hand and let her "run" in it when she attempts to bite, or let her "run" into your elbow.

The best way to deal with rearing is to keep those legs moving forward. :wink:

Good luck!


----------



## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

I certainly didn't mean to offend you, and I didn't suggest you actually get rid of your horse. I think the problem is more complicated than what can be solved by getting a wide range of advice on an Internet forum. Some of the advice that's been posted here is good, in my opinion, and some not. But even the good stuff is not complete enough to solve your problems with this horse.

You can't push (or hit) a horse's button and expect that will solve all your problems with that horse. Yes, you need to be firm, and likely physical, with this horse, but I doubt that alone will solve your problems.

If your friend is willing to work with you and the horse, that will be very helpful. Otherwise, try to find some good horsemanship info. I've asked for a subscription to Eclectic Horseman for Christmas. I also check out this guy's YouTube page sometimes - I like a lot of his stuff. Think Like A Horse - Rick Gore - YouTube

I also like Buck Brannaman (sp?), some of Pat Parelli's old stuff from the '90s (too cheap to pay for his recent stuff, though it's probably good), maybe John Lyons. Lots of good resources out there. If you can combine that with a good local mentor, you'll be set.

You really shouldn't take any of this personally (or whatever your horse does to you personally). We all make mistakes with horses. We've all had horses that didn't respect us, at first at least. Once you've earned a horse's respect, that horse will work with you much better.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

All this advice that's being given your should already know as a horse owner!! If your not willing to give this filly up to someone who can actually turn her into a happy and productive member of horsey society then do you AND YOUR HORSE a favor and get someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING! I'm not going to say trainer, but a person who knows horses. Not you 16 year old neighbor who rode a horse once on a trail string. 

These are NOT small problems that go away with a jerk on the halter and a no. These problem are going to become hard habits. Good luck trying to sell a bossy, kicking, biting, rearing mare. When you need to get rid of her the only place these kind horses go is to the slaughter house.... Just saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I had similar issues with Hunter when I first adopted him. At one point I was actually afraid of him and he knew it. He did all the things your horse is doing and it was all because he had ZERO respect for me. There isn't much you can learn on an internet forum. Yes people have great advice but unless you learn how do handle the situation properly you will not gain the respect. The best thing you can do is hire a professional. I sent Hunter to a trainer and then when he came back she would come to our barn and show me how to correct properly etc. Since then any time I have an issue I call her in and learn how to deal with it correctly from the start. I almost traded Hunter away and am glad I didn't but it did cost me a fair amount of money. We now have a much better relationship and he knows I am no longer afraid of him (though he does still test). You do need a professional or you could end up seriously hurt. If you are not willing to or can't get professional help then you are doing this horse no good by keeping it.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow LisaG you are brave to suggest Rick Gore on here. I don't think he is appropriate for a person still learning. All he cares about is being shocking saying redundant things and hating women. But I digress. Breezy since you've been gettin upset a lot ill just day if I come off mean its not my intention. First of all all those problems are respect issues. I agree your horse see you as a playmate not the leader. Swift corrections when she does these bad behaviors needs to be taken immediately. Remember how I said I think you should be carrying a whip with you all these respect issues is why. I foresaw this coming when you talked about the rearing before. Now I can't see you or your horse so I can't give the most precise advice. I just give you general guesstimation on what I think you should do for the most part. I'd be keeping a lunge whip with me if I had your horse most likely and a rope halter. I don't think you should be lunging such a young horse though you could hurt her joints. If he turns he but to you, you new to spank her on the hip and spin her around and make her face you. You need to constantly reinforce your boundaries when she haltered as when she's not. If she tries to bite you, you need to back her off you with the whip and with your body language. If she rears I suggest going to her hip with the whip and disengage her hind end make her feet move away. Making a horse back or step away reinforces that your the boss. You need to start thinking about and observing how horses talk with each other. Look at way you can use thier body language to communicate with them. But you gotta quit getting mad around your horse your horse feels that. If you feels yourself getting real upset you just need to walk away. When you lead her make sure she is the proper distance away from you body, same way she when standing still. If she is too closer bump her away from your backwards or sideways. You need to remember that horses don't think like people. When she does something wrong you don't take it personally. Correct her consistently when needed then go on as if nothing happened. Once you learn how to do this you'll grow as a trainer. Look and read and listen to these experienced people you can find in books and on the net. Errrm... Not Rick Gore cough..... And try to mimic what they do. I love watching people like Buck Brenamen, Clinton Anderson, Stacy Westfall etc. watch them and thier body language and how they interact with the horse. Your young you have so much to learn. I don't think you necessarily need to get rid of the filly at this point but you definitely need to learn to properly check her behavior before it gets worse. All babies are gonna test boundaries. Even my yearling Jet who is about as well behaved as you can get turned his butt to me the other day. And so I smacked him on the hip with the whip faced him toward me, he back away a few steps on his own so I just kept on walking like we were and he was fine. You say you've been around horses many years so that's good start so critical thinking on horse behaviors and how they interact. Start watching the way horses interact in a herd. That will help you tremendously. Getting an experienced trainer to teach you the ropes will also help a lot. That's how I started to learn how to train. Practice with some older more experienced horses can also help you. At the moment your in over your head but you obviously are wanting to learn sometimes. Try not to get so upset when people tell you your doing something wrong. Doing something wrong isnt necessarily bad because you learn from those mistakes when corrected. Don't take it personally you've been offered advice I'd follow some I wouldn't follow. The majority of people who told you to get another horse is probably because they've been around instances like this where someone they know has gotten hurt. I think that's a big possibility for you at the moment. So please be on guard around breeze. Correct even the smallest hints of disrespect. Sometimes a few bumps with the halter is all you need to make a horse back away and they get it. Sometimes a good whack or two is what they really need. You gotta learn which is appropriate when. It can be confusing how to properly correct a horse each horse is different. You need to figure out what's best for you and her.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Please ignore my grammar and spelling errors. It's hard typing all that on a cell phone. I can tell auto correct got me a few times as well.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

First, all of your posts have the same tone. They all tell me that you do not have a good understanding of how horses think and respond. So, I am not going to offer specifics because I do not feel that is what you need. I think you need a better understanding of horse psychology and WHY they do what they do.

All of your posts show that you have a disrespectful horse along with a lack of general understanding of what any horse of any age needs to respect and still like its handler. 

Now, this is not to say that all horses are the same. If that were true, I would not raise my prospects but would just go buy prospects for about 5 cents on the dollar for what it costs to raise them. I raise horses that are easy to train, have very little inherent resistance, have good attitudes and a lot of 'forgiveness'. They are 'bred' to be nice. Yours may not be. I have seen (and trained) horses that wake up in a new word every day --- horses that must stay awake all night trying to figure our how to NOT do what their handlers want or what their handlers got them to do the day before. Quarter Horses and Paints bred for halter showing particularly have a lot of resistance bred into them. Since they were selectively bred for conformation only and since they come from lines well known for putting out a lot of resistance, I stay away from them. Horses with close-up or multiple lines to Impressive seem to be particularly difficult. This is well-known around here, so much so, that nice ones that actually ride and train good around here will oftentimes sell for more money without their papers -- and this is even true with horses are the N/N for HYPP. Obviously, these traits have been watered down the farther a horse is away from Impressive, himself.

From here, I cannot tell if you have a horse with a good trainable mind or one that naturally has a lot of 'push-back' and resistance. But, regardless, some things are the same in ALL horses -- those that are willing and those that are not so willing and kind. So, I think this is where you need to start. You need to start by analyzing your general program and ALL of your interactions with your horse.

Have you read the 'sticky' article that I wrote that is located at the beginning of this Training Forum -- the one titled "Every rider is a trainer -- every time you interact with a horse"? I suggest reading it 2 or 3 times.

The things I would like to add to that article are:

1) You must be 100% consistent. You MUST require the same behavior, the same respect, the same response EVERY SINGLE TIME you put a horse in the same position. "Whoa!" cannot mean STOP one day and SLOW DOWN the next. "Git Over (and a 'smooch')!" cannot mean 'move your shoulder over right now' one day and 'Okay -- just stand there' the next. You cannot ask a horse to 'back up' or stay out of your space and then not insist that it complies 100% of the time. 

2) You must remember that the worst response you accept is the very best response you have an right to expect. The worst behavior you accept is the best behavior you will get -- unless your horse feels particularly benevolent toward you on a particular day. Anything but his worst response is all you deserve and will probably get most of the time. If you get a better response, consider it a 'gift'. Don't expect it next time.

3) You must correct bad behavior instantly. A horse has to know what behavior caused the correction. Otherwise, you just confuse it. This is like a horse running into an electric fence. If it got shocked 10 seconds after it hit the wire, it would never figure out why it was shocked. Ideally, one should 'interrupt' the behavior WITH the consequence. If this quick response is not possible, skip the response and 'set the horse up' to do it again and be ready to interrupt the behavior or punish it instantly. Just as soon as you think the horse understands the connection between the behavior and the consequence, stop --- and then continue on like nothing happened. 

4) Never, never, NEVER respond in anger. It just never works. Respond with quiet and deliberate 'measured' action. When a handler loses their temper and gets 'mad' the results are never good. The handler's response is not consistent and horse's response is not consistent either. I think that screaming, ranting, raving and wild arm waving is about the worst type of correction you can use. I know some people use it, but they are confusing trying to 'scare' a horse into behaving and trying to quietly 'teach' a horse respect. Respect and fear are not the same.

5) Never, never, NEVER 'pick' at, 'peck' at or 'nag' at a horse. It just angers them and results in worse instead of better behavior. Punishment or consequences should not only be instant but should be serious and decisive. I tend to over-do (in the eyes of some people) a punishment as long as it can come quickly and leave the horse no question as to why it got punished. When I do have to get after a horse, I want it to come away with the thought (or the horse equivalent of): "WoW! That was the worst idea I ever had! I'm never going to try that again!" Consequently, I seldom have to ever get after a horse for the same thing twice.

I have used this gauge of effectiveness for training corrections for more than 40 years (of my 53 years of training): If you have to correct a horse more than twice for the same thing, the correction method or timing has been flawed and ineffective. It would definitely be time to 'go back to the drawing board' and figure out why the method was not working. 

I hope this will cause you to rethink your thinking as well as your methods. Remember, 'timing and feel' are everything. Getting mad defeats everything. Horses do not lie. They only reflect their handlers and trainers. I hope this helps because you seem to have the desire to learn. I just think your temper and ego get in your way.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

100% agreed with Cherie! She put what I was trying to say in a soooo much better way.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am going to contact a trainer to see if we can make a deal- me work with her and she *help* me train Breeze. 

Right from the beginning she has been wild, at her old home she was rearing and trying to jump the gate when we were loading her, then she tried to jump the divider in the trailer

I am not saying I will fix it in one day, but we will get some things started.

thank you


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> I am going to contact a trainer to see if we can make a deal- me work with her and she *help* me train Breeze.
> 
> Right from the beginning she has been wild, at her old home she was rearing and trying to jump the gate when we were loading her, then she tried to jump the divider in the trailer
> 
> ...


That's great! You need a trainer to help get your horse in check. But you need to get a trainer that will also teach you what to do as well. Look for a person who has had many many years of experience cause the trainer is for both of you so you want to make sure you both are learning good things.


----------



## RustyBucket (Nov 24, 2012)

My first horse was an 8 month old little monster that I got when I was 13. Regardless of what a lot of people say, it is entirely possible to train her on your own. I did. It was a very long learning process, for both of us. I read every training book I could get my hands on, talked to fellow horse friends, browsed the internet, and watched lots of horse tv shows. My boy turned out fine ;-)

I know you don't want to hear it but biting, rearing, and threatening to kick are ALL respect issues. She is being disrespectful. It doesn't mean she has NO respect for you but it does mean that these actions are disrespectful ones and need immediate punishment.

Many people may not agree with what I'm about to say but this is what has worked for me (I am in no way a professional):

Rearing- This is the ultimate refusal to do what you ask and honestly it scares the bejesus out of me. I was fallen on by a horse that reared and flipped while I was riding so this is a HUGE deal for me. If a horse I'm working with rears I immediately go into "move your butt or I'm going to eat you" mode. Chase that horse backwards and to the side and backwards and to the other side very quickly. Keep moving those feet until that horse is dripping sweat. If they are not moving fast enough a good pop with a training stick will get them moving. Make the horse think that it is going to die. Rearing is not something to be messed with.

Threatening to kick- Any horse that swings its butt towards me gets a good solid pop with the training stick on the butt. Chase that hip around in a circle, make her think you are going to bite her. She must know to move when you say move, no questions asked.

Biting-If I am picking out hooves and a horse goes to bite me a solid slap in the belly area usually takes care of it. Biting usually disappears as the horse gains more respect for you. If the biting persists chase her around and around until she understands that biting is not allowed.

The hardest thing to keep control of when training horses is your emotions. Don't get mad, don't be vengeful. You must become an electric fence. The horse touches the fence, he gets shocked, he takes his nose off the fence, no more shock. There is no emotion there. A horse misbehaves, it gets punished, it stops misbehaving, no more punishment. 

Do a lot of yeilding hindquarters, forquarters, moving forward, and backwards, this will help build her respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> That's great! You need a trainer to help get your horse in check. But you need to get a trainer that will also teach you what to do as well. Look for a person who has had many many years of experience cause the trainer is for both of you so you want to make sure you both are learning good things.



The trainer I am going to contact is a world known trainer who travels around the world. She lives down the road from me. She breeds, trains, boards and sells horses.


----------



## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Excellent post cherie
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

RustyBucket said:


> My first horse was an 8 month old little monster that I got when I was 13. Regardless of what a lot of people say, it is entirely possible to train her on your own. I did. It was a very long learning process, for both of us. I read every training book I could get my hands on, talked to fellow horse friends, browsed the internet, and watched lots of horse tv shows. My boy turned out fine ;-)
> 
> I know you don't want to hear it but biting, rearing, and threatening to kick are ALL respect issues. She is being disrespectful. It doesn't mean she has NO respect for you but it does mean that these actions are disrespectful ones and need immediate punishment.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I am wanting to train her by myself, my parents and other family members think I can do it. I don't want to contact a trainer, but I will anyways.


----------



## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

So glad you are getting a trainer. I learned so much from mine. I am a long way from being a trainer but I know the correct way to correct my little monster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am *trying* to get a trainer. She might not accept my deal, and in that case, I will not get her because we can no where near afford it. 

I am going to do as much as I can with her myself. If things get worse, rather then better, I will contact the trainer. Until then, I will be training her myself.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Everyone who has been around horses for n matter how many years can always learn from others.
I am fairly certain that if I met Cherie there is a lot she can teach me and I her. We might not agree with a certain method of doing something but, she would explain her reasoning just as I would mine. 

There are always factors that even an older, experienced like me has not come across and I fully admit that I would not hesitate to turn to someone I respect and ask for help.

You know you have come to a dangerous problem and have the sense to ask. I do not think your filly is in anyway nasty but she is muddled and that is your fault. 
It is all correctable if you just listen to the sound advice that most have given you.

Get a trainer to help you even if it is only for a short time just to set you on the right track.

Cherie and I have given you the same advice. It is sound and please follow it!


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I like you advice and Cherie's advice also, I am saying now, I might not be able to get a trainer,even for a short while, that is why I am hoping she accepts my deal.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> Thanks. I am wanting to train her by myself, my parents and other family members think I can do it. I don't want to contact a trainer, but I will anyways.


Honestly, you need to think of the trainer as someone who's teaching you how to train and interact with a horse especially a young horse properly. You can still train your horse, heck I was 13 when I got Pepper my first horse an almost completely untouched weanling. I started to learn to ride when I was ten so my horse knowledge was nowhere near where it is today and even today I know there's plenty more I need to learn. But I trained him myself and when I didn't know what to do I read books and I'd go to my instructor or his family for help cause they were lifelong horse people unlike me the only person in my family with a horse. And I'd have them show me what to do and I'd say yeah that makes total sense and I'd mimic them. When your around true experienced horse people you need to have the humility to admit when your wrong and learn what to do to correct yourself. I've spent many years learning good body language and different ways to achieve certain goals in training. All horses learn differently. Heck I was having a hard time getting Joy trained properly even lately. Some of the things she did confused me and I couldn't communicate with her properly which was very frustrateting for me I'd never had such a problem figuring out a horse. But that was because when I buy myself horses I look for something that has a ready willingness to learn. That is not Joy a lot of the time, that's why I bred her to a horse with that I wanna learn mentality and Jet luckily thinks like daddy instead of momma thank the Lord! She is a very obstinate mare I swear she thinks of ways at night to try to beat me at my game the next day. Must be all that halter/show horse breeding like Cherie said lol. But thanks to the good advice I've gotten on here I can take what's suggested tweak it to me and work with Joy. Let me tell you she's almost a totally different horse now. So much so I've had people come up to me saying they were shocked it was the same horse. And like I said I started training Pepper at 13. I'm sure I made plenty of mistakes but he is an amazing horse that I can go anywhere, do almost anything, and let the most novice of riders ride him around and not be worried about thier safety. He is a good baby sitter . I use him to pony my young horses because nothing bothers him. So when they see that both me and pepper aren't freaking out and "scary" stuff they get the confidence to be that way too. Remember you are young you have lots to learn so never stop learning and keep at it.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I will be training her myself but I will try to get a hold of a trainer. I will be entering her in a horse show in mid summer. I will be doing halter and showmanship with her. I need to get her trained so when we are there she will not act up. Yes, I will try to learn for more experienced people then myself. Everybody who is young with their first horse will jump at any chance to have the oppertunity to train their own horse. We have come a long way since I got her, despite these bad habits. Although she doesn't respect me fully, she still has a little respect and we have a bond together.


----------



## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Hmm, I didn't know Rick Gore had that reputation. I do like some of his YouTube videos, but I honestly haven't looked into him any more than that. The Internet is a dangerous place to find horse advice, I guess. Sorry about that.

Breezy, what part of Sask do you live in? If I know anyone in your area, maybe I can make some recommendations for clinics you could attend, etc... I'm in NW Sask, and I know Cliff Elliott does colt starting clinics in the spring, if you can save up around $325. He is excellent. You could also check northernhorse.com for clinics in your area this spring (there might not be much listed there right now, though).


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

LisaG said:


> Hmm, I didn't know Rick Gore had that reputation. I do like some of his YouTube videos, but I honestly haven't looked into him any more than that. The Internet is a dangerous place to find horse advice, I guess. Sorry about that.
> 
> Breezy, what part of Sask do you live in? If I know anyone in your area, maybe I can make some recommendations for clinics you could attend, etc... I'm in NW Sask, and I know Cliff Elliott does colt starting clinics in the spring, if you can save up around $325. He is excellent. You could also check northernhorse.com for clinics in your area this spring (there might not be much listed there right now, though).


I live in SouthWest saskatchewan. 1.5 hours north of Swift Current and 1.5 hours south of saskatoon. I live in the Lucky Lake area. In Birsay. 

(sorry for giving off so much personal information)


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

LisaG said:


> Hmm, I didn't know Rick Gore had that reputation. I do like some of his YouTube videos, but I honestly haven't looked into him any more than that. The Internet is a dangerous place to find horse advice, I guess. Sorry about that.
> 
> Breezy, what part of Sask do you live in? If I know anyone in your area, maybe I can make some recommendations for clinics you could attend, etc... I'm in NW Sask, and I know Cliff Elliott does colt starting clinics in the spring, if you can save up around $325. He is excellent. You could also check northernhorse.com for clinics in your area this spring (there might not be much listed there right now, though).


Look at Rick Gore topics in the forum. Want to spark arguments and debates just throw his name out there lol. He has a bad reputation around here. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Just watched the Rick Gore video where he goes under the horse to sack it out, and have to agree, that is dumb and not necessary. Sorry again. Safety first.


----------



## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Look at Rick Gore topics in the forum. Want to spark arguments and debates just throw his name out there lol. He has a bad reputation around here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, well, sometimes that is half the fun, even when it's unintentional! I don't think all his stuff is bad, but I would hate for someone to think it's a good idea to walk under a green horse or something.

Breezy, I'm quite a ways from your area, and I don't really know anyone around Speedy Creek or Lucky Lake. But are you involved with any horse clubs down there? Is there a 4-H Light Horse Club? Or maybe something through the Sask Horse Federation (they provide funding for local clubs. If you email their administrator, maybe she could give you some contacts for local clubs, etc... [email protected]). If you build up a community of horse people, you'll learn more, and if you're really, really lucky, you might find a good mentor. 

Also, the Equine Expo in Saskatoon has a trainer challenge. I've never been, but you could probably pick up a few things there, if you can make it. It's sometime in February.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

There is a horse trainer (one of the people I use to ride with) that will be coming out on monday. I am going to try and seperate her from the other horses so I can work with her one on one and without the other horses getting in the way. 

There use to be a 4-H in my area that I was in a few years ago, but it got cancelled. There is a Lucky Lake Horse Show I will be entering in late summer with Breeze, in Halter and Showmanship. I am looking to enter her in other horse shows too.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Also, I forgot to mention that the trainer who is coming out says that Breeze is only trying to test me to see if I will submit to her. Today I was correcting her with every little thing she did wrong. The trainer says that her young quarter horse did the exact same thing when she was 2.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

All young horses test thier handlers. Doesn't change the fact she's still being disrespectful and dangerous. Be consistent and don't let her get away with anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> First off I am not a profetional horse trainer. I have contacted a horse trainer though, she has not gotten back to me yet.
> 
> Anyways, my coming two year old has some began with some bad habits that I would like to stop NOW!!! before they become uncontrolable and dangerous, and something she will do while riding when she is broke...
> 
> ...


It sounds to me you are handling the rearing as you should, she's testing you and you might have to be more aggressive with her when she does rear. I would yell NO, snap the lead and when she comes down back her aggressively for a ways, then walk away leading her like it didn't happen.

The biting, I have a now 3 1/2yr. old, he was born here from my mare, the first few days he was always trying to suckle me (I did not want that to turn into biting), now this might sound stupid but I squealed at him! Like his Mom or another horse would, he backed up.....looked at me and came to do it again (he was very pushy about it), I squealed again at him and to this day he has never nibbled or bit me. You might try that, some horses think it's a game if you smack at them and you miss....squeal loud like another horse would!

As for the kicking, is that when you or leading or when she is loose? If you are leading and she turns her butt to you I would yank her around so that she faced you and give you two eyes! If it is out in the pasture, I would carry a lead or a buggy whip and if she turned her butt to me I would spank her hard on the butt......that is something you could teach her in a round pen or corral, she has to learn when you walk in she needs to turn and face you.

I hope this might help some.....just my idea of what you can do......


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thunderspark said:


> It sounds to me you are handling the rearing as you should, she's testing you and you might have to be more aggressive with her when she does rear. I would yell NO, snap the lead and when she comes down back her aggressively for a ways, then walk away leading her like it didn't happen.
> 
> The biting, I have a now 3 1/2yr. old, he was born here from my mare, the first few days he was always trying to suckle me (I did not want that to turn into biting), now this might sound stupid but I squealed at him! Like his Mom or another horse would, he backed up.....looked at me and came to do it again (he was very pushy about it), I squealed again at him and to this day he has never nibbled or bit me. You might try that, some horses think it's a game if you smack at them and you miss....squeal loud like another horse would!
> 
> ...




Thanks, now the kicking, she has never actually kicked, more like threatened. When she does that though, it is when I get mad at her for trying to rear, I will start making her do circles and then she will get mad and turn her but to me. I will yank her head around and make her do circles around me again. 

Everytime I correct her, and make her do something she doesn't want to do, she will act up more and more. The more I do something she doesn't like, the more she will act up.

When she does become dangerous, I can no longer do anything because I am usually the only one at the farm.

Today she was doing what I just explained. I got mad at her, once she started acting up too much, I took her, and tied her up. I left her there by herself tied up for bout 10-15 mins as there was nothing I could do because I don't want to put myself in harms way when there is nobody else around. 
If there was someone else around, that would be different though.

I am glad I am getting someone more experienced to come and help.


----------



## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Just stay safe and remember she still is a baby, they have baby brains LOL so at 2 I kept my lessons fairly short.....have fun but stay safe!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Breezy2011 said:


> Thanks, now the kicking, she has never actually kicked, more like threatened.* When she does that though, it is when I get mad at her for trying to rear,* I will start making her do circles and then she will get mad and turn her but to me. I will yank her head around and make her do circles around me again.
> 
> *Everytime I correct her, and make her do something she doesn't want to do, she will act up more and more. The more I do something she doesn't like, the more she will act up.*
> 
> ...


 
I am going to make a guess here, regarding the bolded part of your post. If the horse gets mad at your corrections, they are either not firm enough to make her believe you have the power to move or hurt her. Or, they are so emotionally charged and so predatory, that she acts defensively, rather than reacting in a "flee" type of reaction.

Usually, if you very firmly correct a horse, like a big swat with a crop, or a leadrope, or a yank on the leadrope, if the hrose is surprised enough, they will often react in a "flee" or "spook" type of reflex action. It's quick but it's not aggressive. It's avoidance, not push back.

your mare is not doing that, she is pushing back. She is either really NOT frightened/startled enough or she has been "pecked" at too much and is irritated and does not believe you have it in you to make her move. OR, when you discipline her, you are coming off more in an attacking manner, such as lowering your body , charging into her and going for her belly. Some horse will become so worried that instead of trying to flee, they will fight back.

Does any of that ring a bell to you?

It's not bad to discipline her hard enough that she wants to run away from you. I mean, for a second she might jump and pull on the halter, but you disallow that, go right back to whatever you were asking her to do, as if the "whuppin'" never happened. 
Maybe you aren't disciplining hard enough for her to let go of the idea that she is in control of this situation. YOu haven't broke her loose yet.

and maybe she's a bit young yet for what you are asking her.

And lastly, having heard that you really do't want the help of a trainer, I am baffled. I would LOVE to have another person to bounce things off of. There is just so much we do with horses that is dependent on the situation of THAT time, and you do something and you wonder, "did I do that right?". So , having another person to consult with is , to me, extrememly important and desirable. even if the hrose had no real problems. I'd get lonely doing it all on my own.


----------



## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I so agree with you Tiny. Just today I had one of the ladies offer to lunge Hunter during the week when she is at the barn. I jumped at it. Her horses are so well behaved every one wants to be the ones to bring them in at night. I told her to to go right ahead but just be aware he will test. I will learn so much more from all the people at my new barn I am excited.My guy is in the nasty bratty boy stage he is only 4, although he is much better than he was two years ago. He was just like the ops horse


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I haven't read all of the responses, I just saw a lot of "you aren't good enough" or "your doing it wrong" but not a lot of "here's what will help".
So here's what I think will help... But first I'm gonna get tough. No your pony doesn't have any respect for you, she's obeying you most of the time because it's the path of least resistance, not because she honestly trusts and wants to obey you. But when she honestly Doesn't want to do something she knows pretty well that she doesn't have to, threatening a rear, kick or bite has won her what she wants at least once - and has escalated since then. So in order to fix it you do need to gain her respect. You also need to take things a little easy on her, she's a baby - remember that her attention span is limited, and her physical capabilities are limited. Pushing her beyond what she's capable of is going to lead to her searching for a way out (rearing, kicking or biting).
Now, here's what you can do to fix this issue.
Most importantly mastering her yielding skills. She needs to learn to:
-yield her hind end (moving her hind feet with her front feet stationary)
-yield her front end (front feet side-stepping with her hind end stationary)
-back up (this will help a great deal, with respect building)
-put her head down (with poll pressure, will help shift her out of 'flight mode')
-turn head laterally (turn left and right with pressure on the halter like reins)
Practice each of these skills by applying a mild amount of pressure - if she responds wrongly, by moving into the pressure or forward or back in the wrong way, hold the pressure on and wait. The moment she moves in the correct direction relieve the pressure Immediately and rub out the spot. If she doesn't respond at all to the pressure gradually increase it until she starts searching for the right response. Repeat this for every part of her, always starting with the least amount of pressure and only increasing if she is not reacting, removing the pressure when she responds correctly. 
If at any point she gets in a huff about it (which she may in the beginning) you need to get after her fast and furious. Always attack the offending limb, if she kicks at you with a hind leg -yield her hind end a million and a half times, furiously. I forgot who said it Lyons maybe? but when they do something wrong "you have 3 seconds to make them think they're gonna die", he goes on to mention that you need to yell and scream and attack anywhere on their body except for their face "you want to _kill_ them, not blind them". 
Work on these skills in a safe, comfortable environment until she is giving readily to pressure without any concern, with only the lightest touch. This may take a while, this is the basics of ground work. Between each yielding skill lead her around the area like normal, if she is ever even a little rude (a little in your space or a little too far ahead or looking off at something else, ignoring you) go back to another yielding exercise, so you can practice every skill.
Once she's obeying politely, it's time to practice the skills that caused you issues before. If at any point she is impolite aggressively yield her, whichever is the offending issue. Work her little patooty off until she's licking her lips and submitting. 
You're absolutely right she is testing you and the more she is allowed to do the more she will do. These issues do need to be nipped in the bud.

Once she's going well with all those issues you can go about desensitizing her to everything, like tack or people leaning on her (which I'd personally suggest you wait longer to work on...)

Good luck, keep us posted.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When she rears, DO NOT pull on the lead as she may go too high and lose her balance. This could result in her going over backwards or sideways and landing on you. A yank at this time does not make her think of it as disciplinary action but that you have turned into an attacking predator and of course she threatens to kick. You are right in that she is telling you to back off. This is fear based. The next time she rears move toward her hindquarters as this is considered the safest place to be. Just wait until she comes down and ignore what she has done and begin leading her again. Don't pet her or talk to her, just keep your focus on something a good 50 yards away. By focusing like this your shoulders are square and you have taken a leadership role. Don't hold the lead too close to the halter but about 30" away. This allows her to walk her own path without crowding. Periodically flap your elbow to move her away. It's her problem if she connects, she'll be more mindfull. Just keep walking. Remember, when you get angry you aren't thinking very clearly. All that negative energy is picked up by her and her thinking changes to reaction just like yours. Deep breaths will calm you down.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Breezy, this it good and a positive step, it seems you are willing to have a look at things from a new perspective. Its never good to get defensive when we get constructive criticism that we don’t particularly like; but you should remember that you are only 15 and when you have people like Cherie and Foxhunter giving you advice, they were once in your shoes, and they have seen it all before. I have taught something for about thirteen years now, its not horse related, but has a similar vibe to it, and one of the biggest obstacles in teaching is where people are convinced they know it all; and, I can tell you, as the person trying to teach them, hearing that makes it hit home to me more just how little they know. But then, the point I want to make is thats OK I guess, we were all in that place and mind set at one time or another, the important thing is to grow out of it, Cherie and foxhunter aren’t trying to be mean, they are just giving you the benefit of their experience.


And what they both gave you there is probably, in my opinion at least, one of, if not the, the most important things you can ever learn about handling horses, and something too many people NEVER understand, that its all about respect. Too many people read or watch Parelli material, or Monty Roberts stuff, or whoever, and they only take from it what they like and forget the rest. It seems the Parelli crowd are particularly bad for this, and I'm willing to say this as a person who uses, and loves, a great deal of his stuff. Its all good and well to “join up” with your horse, or to form a “relationship”, or “bond” with it. But if these things don't come from respect they are meaningless. Forget the “go and groom your horse every day to earn its trust” nonsense, forget the “spiritual connection” rubbish; horses don't know what any of that means, they know and understand what it is to be respected and to give respect. Get that part right and EVERYTHING you do with your horse will follow easily. If your horse respects you, it will trust you, if it trusts and respects you it will do nearly anything possible for you or die trying. I mean that literally; I have heard stories while working on some pretty big cattle stations of horses literally working themselves to death and overheating under a rider; I'd say it was a betrayal of the horse's trust in the rider, but it's also a good example of how far they will go if they respect and trust you.


What Cherie and Foxhunter said there is some of the best advice you will ever get about horses; you should treasure it, and I'm getting the impression your coming round. You should feel good about it, and you might look back in a year or two and be a bit embarrassed by being so hard headed; but remember, we were all there where you are now once upon a time. Good luck.


----------



## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

In terms of biting and rearing, I have not dealt with that yet, [Well, rearing sometimes, but it was my error and a "I cannot move forward therefor I must rear response" from the horse.] 

But kicking, I have dealt with. 

A mexican mustang I work with has been getting into kicking lately. Why, I have no clue. But he had always been squicky about water in his back legs, or anything "off" feeling, like say liniment gel. A girl and I were taking care of him, and he cow kicked her in the leg. She had a pretty nasty bruise. She didn't do anything to deliberately correct the horse. I got down and began applying the gel. I did not correct the horse the first time for the girl because 1. It was too late, and 2. She should have done so herself. 

Anywho. He responded the same way. I whipped that head around and I got after his ***. I smacked it with the lead rope hard, ONCE, and I made his feet move frontwards, backwards, left and right. He has not since attempted to kick at me, but goes after others instead who do not correct him. He knows, and remembers quite well, that I won't tolerate his ****.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am not sure the OP is interested or listening to any of this. I , for one, will take my energies elsewhere.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Dealing with any horse is mostly a matter of the handler _understanding_ and _knowing_ what a horse is going to do_ before they do it._ 
This way two things can occur. The unwanted behaviour can be stopped with a poke of the finger, a shake of the rope or just a word in the right tone. 
The second thing that can be done is to be ready for the unwanted behaviour and as it occurs correct_ hard_ and _fast _ making the horse think that is was going to die! This does not mean beating it up but giving it a darn good fright with body language, arm waving and demanding that they give to you.

A couple of years ago I had a lovely colt foal. His mother is a bossy not so nice mother and would never allow him to share her feed. She would chase him off with her teeth and feet - not actually kicking but pushing him away with a determined shove of her leg or body.
They were in the stable one day. I had fed them both, the mare in the manger and the colt had his feed resting on top of the hay - one either side of the door.
I went to go back into the stable to put some more water into the manger at the back of the stable and to remove some droppings. 
The colt was stood partially across the doorway. As I walked back towards him I spotted that A) he had looked at me with his ears slightly back, B) moved to block the door C) was continuing to watch me. 
Having been around horses all my life I knew exactly what he was going to do - he was going to try and boss me and stop me going into the stable and maybe remove his food. 
_His reaction to me was what his mother did to him._ However, what he had not realised was that his mother _never_ threatened me in any way when she had her food! 
Without breaking a stride, I turned the prong around so the handle was pointing forward and sure enough he lifted a leg to kick out but, having read all the signs, I was more than ready and as he went to kick he had a hard poke on is flank with the handle of the prong. 
He shot around the stable and hid the other side of his mother! I continued into the stable, filled the water manger, picked up the poop and walked out. I ever said a word!
After I left he went back to his feed. I returned to the stable and when I went to enter the door he never stopped eating but politely moved over to allow me to enter.
Lesson learned.

I have always had an instinct as to what to do when around animals. Having spent hours just observing them interacting with each other, looking at their body language, and having learned a lot from experiences, I am considered 'gifted' by many when it comes to problems. I do not think this is so, most is just being instinctively observant so that a minor correction is done without even thinking about it thus stopping anything major happening. 

You have to look and watch for the minor changes, the stiffening of the body, the ears going slightly back, minor changes, correction at this point stops continuation.

Another one - I was holding a young ill mannered mare that would not stand for a bath. The owner was washing with hot soapy water and asked why I corrected the mare when she had not moved. (I had given a slight jerk with the rope) I had to think about it and then realised that I was actually watching her knees, she had put the weight onto one leg and unlocked the other knee ready to move forward. So instinctive was my observation and reaction, that I never even realised what I was doing until asked! 

That is what horsemanship is all about. It is never a matter of talking to horses it is a matter of watching and understanding what they are saying. Some people have an instinctive for learning this, others never will because they do not understand it or want to learn. 

Keep an open mind never stop watching, never stop asking, never stop learning and you will make it through things OK.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Read my update, its call Update from Bad Bahaviour


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Breezy2011 said:


> Sorry, but she does have respect for me, a lot of respect. She does try to test me and see where her boundries are. I refuse to say she has no respect for me, no matter what anybody says, because I am the one that is working with her.
> 
> I have been around horses all my life, we just could not get one until now. I have worked and trained and rode lots of young horses. Just because this is MY first horse, doesn't mean I cannot handle a younger horse.
> 
> ...


 I think she has some respect for you also and I think for your 1st horse your handling of things is above average. She does sound like she is trying to be the Alpha and testing you. It is important when she is trying to intimidate you that you do not back down but still be safe. If I thought she was going to kick me for no reason though I might take a whip to her when she offered to kick and show her you mean business. Once should be enough that you will show her you won't tolerate that behavior. 

When she is rearing it also sounds like a dominence issue from what you described. I am confued by your statement that you have no time to work her. This is trhe time I think she needs consistant work to get bthrough this stage.


----------



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> I am confued by your statement that you have no time to work her. This is trhe time I think she needs consistant work to get bthrough this stage.


No, i said I had no time to work for the trainer who I was going to make a deal with, because I was too busy working with Breeze, and school work.


----------



## JazzyP (Dec 20, 2012)

It seems to me that time spent with the trainer might just count as time spent with Breeze. 

Hello, all, and please be kind to a new forum member and novice horse owner.

I have found this thread to be most instuctive, and I thank all...well, almost all (the thread did get off to a bit of a rough start) for the information.

I, too, have recently acquired my first horse. She is a two-year-old, and was a gift from my wonderful boyfriend. She's a good horse, but she is TWO, and more or less a tween/teen, and just as eager to test the limits as a child would be.

Breezy, perhaps I am speaking out of turn, because my own experience with horses is much more limited than your own, but no, she does not respect you, not yet. It doesn't mean you are unworthy, it means she is young, and exploring what she can and cannot get away with, just as you may be yourself, at 15. One of the hardes things for me, when my Millie tries to nip or otherwise misbehave, is to remember not to take it personally, to feel insulted or angry. I do not have a lot of experience with horses, beyond the riding lessons I had as a child, but I do know this: they respect calm leadership. Knowing is the easy part; providing it, perhaps not so much.

I do hope you will work something out with the trainer you have contacted. There is no weakness in admitting you need instruction. I am currently seeking someone to help me train Millie, as well as to help me refresh and sharpen my own skills, even with a horse that is dead broke.

One of the biggest things I must overcome is my own fear. That is probably the biggest problem in this equation: I cringe at the thought of being bitten, kicked, etc., and I know it must be obvious to my horse. 

I've gotten some very good information from this thread. I know that Millie needs to be corrected when she misbehaves, but was not sure how to go about it. Now I have some ideas in mind, and I appreciate them. 

As for those who suggested that the OP "get rid" of her horse, I have to say, I admire her commitment to this little mare. Too many people consider animals of any kind to be expendible, the moment they become inconvenient. I can understand the need to rehome a dangerous horse, but shouldn't that be a last resort, something that comes *after* enlisting the assistance of a professional trainer? 

The initial tone of this thread was pretty ugly to me; needlessly unkind and confronational. I'm glad I stuck it out and got to the good stuff.


----------

