# Disrespect



## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Ive got a project mare. She is trained really well but is so disrespectful. When being saddled she leans into the person saddling. When lunging she will push into the lunger. In the roundpen she is perfect but in the arena she pulls crap. Ive been keeping her out of my space and i dont let her get away with things but i still feel like i have no respect from her. Any ideas?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

In what way is she trained really well?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Buy Clinton Anderson's book, and follow it step by step. His system is great for disrespectful horses.

she needs lots of groundwork before you get on her. while not all groundwork translates under saddle, I would say 50% or so does, so getting her out of your space and respectful on the ground will make a big difference.

I too am curious why you call her well trained?


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Push back! Get LOUD! GET BIGGGG! If you have to do it 19 times, she's telling you that you aren't doing nearly enough. Whack the hell out of her when she leans into you. No Way would she do that to a more dominant horse in the pasture. No way should she do it to you. How would that more dominant horse handle this?

P.S. Until you solve this problem, you and those around are in DANGER from this horse. People allow this type of stuff to go WAY TOO FAR and then get someone hurt.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

DanielDauphin said:


> How would that more dominant horse handle this?


This is a great question!!! and one that more people need to ask when trying to fix these kinds of problems.

You say your horse is great in the round pen? how hard are you pushing him in the round pen? 

It really sounds like you aren't setting good boundaries and demanding that you horse follow you rules. Its all about respect.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Answering that question is what NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP was originally about, before it became a marketing buzzword to sell overpriced halters ...


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

I say she is well trained because once she gets over her first 20 minutes of attitude she's a really well broke mare under saddle. It's more getting over this than it is training her under saddle right now.

I actually am working with her using the Clinton Anderson methods. It just kills me how she's so respectful in the roundpen but once she gets into the real world she is a wreck.

In the roundpen it's more about getting her to switch from the more reactive side of her brain to the thinking side. Lots of direction change and working on her learning the commands for the three gaits. I also do a lot of desensitizing and making her catch her breathe with me associating me with rest. 

Oh trust me. I do push back and demand respect from her. I NEVER let her walk into my space or lean on me and it always causes a huge fight (which I win) I was not the one who caused these issues. I bought her as a project as I'm just a bit amazed at how persistent the is with these problems. Even when I win in the dominance game I feel like she still doesn't respect me. It's like she says I've won the battle but not the war.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

When a horse leans into people they are out of balance (and mares will push into pressure), so move the horse over. When lungeing the horse, the horse must stay between the hand holding the line/caveson, and move away from the whip (point it at the shoulder/move the horse), this is basic handling (but likely you are moving away from the horse instead of visa versa. In a round pen the handler is controlling the situation, out wise not. Will she lead and stop when you do (with you at the shoulder)? If not, why not? If you turn, does she turn? Are you CONSISTENT in what you ask? Basic horsemanship, little need for an over the top action, just clear/consistent actions which must be met with her consistent reactions. If not, ask what you might be missing (in timing/clarity/etc).


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

She's not leaning into me. She's stepping into my space in order to push me over and cause me to stop. Ill make her move her poll and shoulders over every time she does it and it takes 5 or 6 times before she finally quits every time. 

When walking as long as I'm at the barn she will do everything I do and ask on the lead line but when we get to the barn beside ours where the roundpen is she gets ADHD and starts twisting her head to look at things and pushes into me where I always stop her and back her out of my space and make her give me two eyes before I will ask a walk off again. 

I've worked with ottbs quite a bit retraining them off the track and they're so sensitive to pressure and I've never had one give me this much trouble is all. I know my cues and handling aren't lacking I'm just having much more resistance from her than I've ever with any other horse


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You REALLY need CA's book.
It all starts from the moment you approach your horse and how they respect you or disrespect you. ANY small disrespect needs to be addressed immmediately and then you establish yourself as head broodmare or head stallion, and your horse becomes submissive, dropping her head, relaxing, etc.
Your mare is showing you she doesn't see you as the leader from the time you halter her. You are just not paying attention to her signals. Here is the link:
Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders: Clinton Anderson, Ami Hendrickson: 9781570762840: Amazon.com: Books
*From the Publisher*

_Native Australian Clinton Anderson offers his training methodology for “real life” horses and their owners. Beginning by stressing the importance of a fundamental understanding of horse psychology and “why they do what they do,” the author introduces readers to safe and specific ways to approach training or behavioral problems, then guides them through basic groundwork and under–saddle exercises. Throughout, the book features two “real horses” with “real riders” and “real problems,” their experiences with Downunder Horsemanship, and how it improved confidence, established respect, and provided “real solutions” for all involved. Clinton Anderson trains, tours, and conducts clinics across the United States. He stars in a weekly satellite television program called “Downunder Horsemanship TV,” where he works with untrained and “problem” horses. He (WAS) based in Sterling, Illinois. _

Now, CA is in Texas. I have an original copy, but it has since been updated.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ok, just brainstorming here . . 


maybe instead of working her in free lunging in round pen (I am assuming you are doing this) you should work more with her ON a line. this way you can get her to move around you always bent, so that she is not allowed to have her shoulder in on you when she moves around you. something she can do when free lunging in round pen.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

The horse chooses how much pressure is required, not you. I say again, do more. If you are having to go through this that many times, the horse is telling you that you aren't doing enough. Period! Don't over think something that isn't complicated.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

If it's groundwork that she's bad at you might just keep her in the round pen and do your ground work in there, lunging seems to work a little better when starting as if they get away from you, they can't go anywhere. You probably just need to get after her more to get out of your space. When lunging if she cuts in towards you whack her on the shoulder, and then continue as if nothing happened.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Horses are not so clever to make people do anything, they are either listening/reacting or they are taking a leadership role. If the horse is stepping into space, then why not keep it bended lightly toward the handler, then it cannot push into your space. And why would the handler then stop. It is rider/handler ACTION and horse REACTION, not the other way round. It is confusing for the horse when they are the ones creating the reactions.

Step the horse up for success BEFORE things go south.

Horses are not ADHD, but IF they are forced into the leadership role, then they look around. It is OUR JOB to keep the horse focusing. Stop and go, turn, etc BEFORE those things happen (w/o hanging on the line), but at horse's shoulder so you can SEE what is happening BEFORE it happens. PROACTIVE not REACTIVE.

The more insecure the horse the more the likelihood it will attempt to 'take care of the human', and that has to be the humans job.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

1) I have 3 sets of Clinton Anderson methods. She does all the beginner groundwork as long as she is in the arena. Telling me I need to look it up is a bit redundant

2) any disreect is being delt with. It just takes a lot and many many repititions with her, that's the problem. 

3) the idea about working her more outside is a good one! I will see what I can improve on her outside of the roundpen. 

4) I said its like she is ADHD to describe her behavior. Not that I believe she really is. I never let her get away with it. If she stops paying attention to me I GET her attention by making her back up of my space and gain her attention before I continue walking


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Why question is always why is basic horsemanship not taught horseman to horseman? Although the handler/rider has to always look to whether they are asking something in such a way that the horse is HONESTY answer yes, it is not the horse's problem. There is either being head horse and being trusted in that role for the human, or not. It is not disrespect by the horse, it is simpy taking on the role they think they need to do for survival for both parties.

Progress in training is successive approximate for the hander, and therefore for the horse.....knowing how much is enough and what is over the limit. So it is not repetitions per se, that is not the horse's problem, it is clarity for the handler. The horse is NOT trying to 'get away with anything', it is that the handler/rider should have never lost it in the first place.


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

Instead of backing her up and making her give you two eyes, try simply marching off in another direction than wherever her attention has been diverted. If she realizes that you decide the destination and she can't anticipate when you may change your mind and walk in a different direction, she will much more likely keep her attention on you after some time.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Keep in mind that if she does one little thing as you asked you must release the pressure immediately. Sometimes the request has to be very small, ask her to walk three steps then immediately turn your back to her. Think of the children's book where you connect the numbered dots. Do the small progressions and the horse will eventually connect the dots and often do it brilliantly. And when it happens, it's there for life.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Agree about releasing pressure....but do not wait for a response. Ask and assume the horse will respond (or you will be too late in the reward).


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## prillyg (Sep 22, 2013)

You can try this... Before, she has a chance to step into your space, (stay focused and watch for it...) jump with arms up in the air, make yourself bigger. You're going to have to be quick in catching her but this will catch her eye. No sense in hitting her but if you want to make a noise at the same time, do so. Get her attention is what you want. 

You can do this when your leading. You want to be in front (most dominant position) the moment you see a try of going to be ADHD do the same thing. Jump with raised hands and legs apart. Make yourself big, get her attention. 

I'll even try putting her into a shoulder-in on the circle if she wants to go away, that is if she knows shoulder-in. If you don't know what that is; it's like a leg yield but the neck has a bend and the inside hind leg moves to the outside. But try to stay in front of her, you'll make a bigger impression on her. It doesn't matter the size of the circle, allow her to decide the size what's important is staying in front of her facing her at all times. focus focus focus. 

You might also try mimicking her. When she wants to go a different way, move in that direction hopefully before she does. If she looks at something, look with her. it's her ideas becomes your ideas and your ideas becomes hers. This may help her to question you? Just what you want, she's seeing you for a change. 

Just a few ideas....I hope this will help....

April
www.horsevideosetc.com


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

TexasBlaze said:


> I say she is well trained because once she gets over her first 20 minutes of attitude she's a really well broke mare under saddle. It's more getting over this than it is training her under saddle right now.
> 
> I actually am working with her using the Clinton Anderson methods. It just kills me how she's so respectful in the roundpen but once she gets into the real world she is a wreck.
> 
> ...


If she were well trained and if you knew what you were doing....any attitude would be over in 1/2 a second, not take you 20 minutes.

And the reactive/thinking brain deal? Another case of smoke and mirrors.

Horses are hardwired to be reactive in their thinking. That is what keeps them alive. And their thinking, allows them to assess any threat and file it away as not a big deal. There is no left brain/right brain. And actually think the "wonder trainers" came up with this BS to explain why their minions weren't getting any results...and were getting hurt.

And if this is OTTB....depending on bloodlines, she may be extremely flight oriented, and could be that feed has her too hyped.

And roundpenning TB's is not that good an idea in the first place, they are worked to build up stamina, so you are actually adding to the problem, not working to solve it. 


The horse has no respect for you, or alternately, the horse has decided you don't know what you are doing, and is just panicking because you confuse it so. Whether it is because she just has a screw loose, or you have confused her on top of what she came like, or whatever, this horse is not responding to your handling.

And the whole "lots of changing direction" is a good way to get one so upset they can't learn a thing. Especially with a TB.

Roundpenning is not an endurance competition, it should be a short session, if even that. And would not do it with this mare at all. The calmer you work with her, the easier you might find it.

And there is no "win" in the dominance game....you are not supposed to be dominant in the sense that I fear you are...you are to be a leader, and that comes from your inner being and the core of you.

Could also be something is off with her vision, or something in body too. She could have something hormonal going on.


The approaches you are using are not working, and this will only go downhill for the mare, until she is beyond saving.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

DanielDauphin said:


> The horse chooses how much pressure is required, not you. I say again, do more. If you are having to go through this that many times, the horse is telling you that you aren't doing enough. Period! Don't over think something that isn't complicated.


I don't believe in shoving them back - they are stronger and it takes a fair bit of effort to get them to move especially of you have a saddle in your arms.

I am far more subtle, keep a hoof pick in your hand and when she steps into you when tacking up just push the point of the hoof pick into her shoulder, they soon move from a wriggle with that.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

If you'd please show me where I used the words "shove them back"?

They can lean on a push. I don't want to use pressure that can be leaned on. 
Hoof pick works fine. I use my thumb or the handle end of my flag to poke them quite a bit. Whatever, as long as it works RIGHT NOW. She's doing this multiple times over multiple days, which absolutely tells me that she's nagging aka not doing enough to be effective. Do whatever works, as long as it IS effective.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Shove/push equal the same. 

Getting loud can be helpful in a multiple horse situation, as in if two start a kicking match in the field, but in a one on one situation, it doesn't. Most people. When they get loud get a high pitched voice and that can escalate a situation. 
A person needs to remain calm, be firm and fair. If the voice is used for behaviour it needs to be a growl. 

I would ride by a primary school. When the children were outside playing then often the most placid of horses would get on their toes because of the high pitched squealing of the children playing. 

Tone is the important factor, not the loudness.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

You are taking me too literally. I am not at all suggesting a screaming match or trying to push/shove a 1200 lb. animal. It is all about the energy you project. Pressure has little to do with those things. For example, I can give a pretty good whipping to a spoiled horse like this and in the end they will be calmer and more comfortable with me than when we started. I can also approach that same horse in the round pen in such a way as to not be able to get within 15 feet of it and have it so scared it would be trying to jump out. The pressure and how it is used is all important. The method or paint by number details are not.
Most people having this problem need to turn up the volume. Again, figuratively. How do I know that? Experience with hundreds of people and thousands of horses. An experienced handler who is confident would have this sorted out in a moment. Being too soft, or nagging, will cause this to last indefinitely.
I'm done now. You have my thoughts. Take them or leave them.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Btw, I'm not sure if this is kosher, but I think it is, so, if you go to my YouTube channel, linked in my signature, I have a video called 'disrespect at feeding time'. It may show what I mean better than this has come across in print.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Sorry if this is rude... but. It is fascinating the reasonings that humans give to equines rather than just changing how WE ACT which is CAUSING the REACTIONS in the horse. IF we are to set up leadership/trust/calm then WE have to be CLEAR, we have to have different actions and they WILL change theirs. That means taking responsibility for what we are doing, how/when/where/why they are reacting. (I regularly help PP students who are doing 'games' but have NO idea what to look for in a horse's behavior patterns. It usually takes a minute to get the mind, and the body will follow. Then its about teaching the student what to look for and the TIMING to get it.)


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I went back and reread some of the OPs posts.
If the problem really Is RESPECT, then you have plenty of advice. 

After rereading parts of your posts, however, I would just ask if you are sure these behaviors are disrespect and not INSECURITY? Picture a small child hanging on to mommy's legs. Any chance that is what is really going on here?


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## Maisie12 (Apr 16, 2013)

DanielDauphin said:


> Push back! Get LOUD! GET BIGGGG! If you have to do it 19 times, she's telling you that you aren't doing nearly enough. Whack the hell out of her when she leans into you. No Way would she do that to a more dominant horse in the pasture. No way should she do it to you. How would that more dominant horse handle this?
> 
> P.S. Until you solve this problem, you and those around are in DANGER from this horse. People allow this type of stuff to go WAY TOO FAR and then get someone hurt.


 
I *REALLY *dislike this sort of attitude. You should avoid hitting and whacking horses as much as possible as all this does is create fear and resentment not respect and harmony. Hitting horses does more harm than good.

Remember you earn a horses respect, and they are not automatically required to respect you. Lots of horses obey but do not respect people because they do not respect them in return. 

Use this method and be consistent and firm. *Verbally Reprimand* (a simple authorative NO), *Correct* (make them do what they were supposed to do ie stand still) and *Praise* (when they stand). Be sure to praise when the horse does what it's supposed to do. Make a fuss of him. When he is bolshy, use the above method and only make a fuss when he does as he should. It will take time but he will soon learn it is much more enjoyable to be fussed when he does something good.

There is no point correcting bad behaviour if you do not set a consistent clear pattern of praise for good behaviour to the horse. If you shout at him when he is bad and ignore him when he is good then how does he know what you want? Also think about the timing of your cues and body language as this can be crucial. I have seen pupils trying to lunge horses who do not co-ordinate body language and cues and wonder why the horse does something completely different to what they were expecting but the horse did exactly what they asked. 
It can be very subtle but make your instructions to your horse a world apart.
Example: Lungeing - asking the horse to bend more a pupil increased the contact on the lunge rein and then separately pushed him forward. The horse responded by trotting a straight line for half of the circle. To him, she asked him to turn and then trot forwards, so he did. The pupil should have simultaneously increasing contact WHILST pushing him forward, not one after the other. It was such a small difference in timing maybe 2 seconds at the most but had very different effects.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I *REALLY *dislike this sort of attitude. You should avoid hitting and whacking horses as much as possible as all this does is create fear and resentment not respect and harmony. Hitting horses does more harm than good.

I wish you would tell that to the boss horse out in the field where I board. If my horse is stupid enough to try to eat from boss horses' hay pile, or even walk within 30 feet of said hay, well the boss horse isn't going to have a zen moment with mine and politely ask him to leave.

If I hadn't feared the wrath of my mother when I was a child, I would be the [email protected] Biatch on two legs. And I would have gotten into some trouble here and there.

Fear is NOT always a bad thing. Keeps all animals, two and four legged, from breaking the rules of the society in which that animal lives.

What creates resentment is inconsistent handling, lack of leadership, not being able to trust the handler and then the horse having to take over to protect (in his mind) himself.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Maisie 12,
I encourage you to visit my website and/ or YouTube channel and come back here and point out all of my horses that are fearful and resentful. What you are espousing is what I refer to as the Disney version of horsemanship and it flat out gets people hurt!!!
Keep riding Unicorns. I'll stick to horses...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Maisie12 said:


> I *REALLY *dislike this sort of attitude. You should avoid hitting and whacking horses as much as possible as all this does is create fear and resentment not respect and harmony. Hitting horses does more harm than good.
> 
> Remember you earn a horses respect, and they are not automatically required to respect you. Lots of horses obey but do not respect people because they do not respect them in return.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm, I agree that consistency and firmness are important and hitting a horse is ideally no the way to go. 
I cannot agree that a stroppy horse that is barging around a stable need to only be told "No" and pushed back. It needs to know that the person handling it can and will cause it discomfort if it continues to walk through them. 

Horses will respect the handler that stands no nonsense, is firm and fair. 
The handler that, with a Bolshy horse puts it in its place by going onto the attack, will gain that respect far faster than the one who is overly gentle. 

On many occasions I have had horses that had the idea they were in charge, they knew better because I 'attacked' them by being big and making them think they were going to die. Were they frightened of me afterwards? No, they were not. Did I have that problem with them again? No, I did not. 

I am not talking about a young horse that does not know. 

A nervous horse will be far more likely to gain confidence if the handler sets firm boundaries and if it starts to become afraid of something, the handler gives it commands and shows firmly that the behaviour is not acceptable, than if the handler tries to pacify thus encouraging the behaviour,


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## Maisie12 (Apr 16, 2013)

DanielDauphin, I think you are perhaps being a little over reactive. I am simply posting my opinion and advice on the subject. I said nothing to infer that your horses are fearful and resentful. I am speaking from my own experiences. 

I have gained all my experience and qualifications training with a wonderful former international eventer, international coach, senior instructor and senior examiner with the british horse society who specialises in problem horses. I have worked with horses whose problems stem from aggressive or heavy handed handling.

She never hits horses, never shouts, and uses the methods I spoke of. She is quietly confident and calm around horses. She has turned so called 'dangerous' horses into ones that are wonderful to work with. 
The horses she has in her yard for riding lessons are the same horses I mentioned above and novices and beginners ride them with no problems and they are very well mannered in the stable and field. 

So it is rubbish that I am talking 'the Disney version of horsemanship' because you obviously haven't got a clue what I am talking about, because if you did you wouldn't say it at all.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I am sorry to have hurt your feelings. Perhaps the kitchen is not the place for you. There's less heat when you act more respectfully of others who may have also had their own successes and experiences, which may be far greater than you assume...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Maisie12. I took my BHSI when there were no intermediate tests, you took the exam over two days at Melton Moberry, all army remounts used for the exam.
Qualifications via exams and a piece of paper mean not a lot in my book. On more than one occasion I have had other BHSIs work with me especially when I was working with racehorses out of training and when encountering a problematic horse they have no idea on how to deal with it on their own.
I never learned anything much from the BHS, life working with problems did more to make me understand the mentality of horses and how to get around problems simply and quickly.


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## Saddlebred11 (Mar 27, 2014)

You seem to be doing well getting her out of your personal space so I would keep doing that with her and maybe try to seek the advice of an older horseman that can watch the behavior while it is happening rather then us trying to give youy advice without knowing *exactly* what is going on.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Maisie12 said:


> DanielDauphin, I think you are perhaps being a little over reactive. I am simply posting my opinion and advice on the subject. I said nothing to infer that your horses are fearful and resentful. I am speaking from my own experiences.
> 
> I have gained all my experience and qualifications training with a wonderful former international eventer, international coach, senior instructor and senior examiner with the british horse society who specialises in problem horses. I have worked with horses whose problems stem from aggressive or heavy handed handling.
> 
> ...


It's funny though, because the method you're describing is exactly what caused my horse to be aggressive. He knew he could push and push and do whatever he wanted, and all he got was a tiny little slap on the wrist (that he didn't understand, sorry but horses don't understand English). Horses do not consider rubs or pats as a viable form of praise, especially considering some don't even like it. They need a release. When he came to me and it was no longer flowers, rainbows, good boys, and treats, he got a rude awakening. When I got my horse if you asked him to do anything he didn't want to do, watch out. If you got after him for pawing in the cross ties, he'd get after you too. Guess what, the only thing that fixed it is the method Daniel is talking about. Now he's a perfect gentleman who I can actually trust not to slam me into a stall wall (he actually did that once). Doing ground work with him, he would plain out come after you. He's 18h and 1400 lbs, I'm a 115 lb girl. If I had used your method I'd have been in the hospital by now. And guess what he actually likes me now! Because I'm firm but fair, and the leader he needs.


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