# George Zimmerman..



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think the press has given a very accurate account of what really happened here. I think we have to wait until the story is told in court (yes, he will be charged, of that I'm sure) and then countered by any forensic clues available. I have heard too many contrasting stories to even begin to believe I know what happened.

The stand your ground law only applies if you are being seriously threatened or attacked. Simply believing you might be and following a person you believe is "up to no good" does not give you the right to invoke this law's protection.

It will be interesting to see what is unwrapped in this case.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree with Allison. 

There are too many conflicting stories for me to form an opinion of his guilt or innocence, although I'm very much in agreement that he needs to stand trial. Hopefully, forensics will tell the real story.

As far as the right to bear arms, you're not an American so don't think like one. We take that right _very_ seriously. I have two guns, and not only have a license for them, but have taken firearm safety courses. Guns are nothing more than tools, and ANY tool can be deadly in the wrong hands.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

They have announced that they are pressing charges.

Black, white, yellow, purple .. the teen was unarmed and the overzealous neighborhood watch guy should be held responsible..

imo


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

texasgal said:


> Black, white, yellow, purple .. the teen was unarmed and the overzealous neighborhood watch guy should be held responsible..
> 
> imo


My thoughts to, fair enough if Trayvon hada been pointing a gun in Zimmermans face but he was unarmed, there was no need to kill him.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

texasgal said:


> They have announced that they are pressing charges.


btw... did they find him? On he news here earlier that even his lawyers didnt know where he was...?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

... and I'm a gun owner .. and DH is a concealed carrier. I believe in self defense and wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone in my home if I felt threatened.

This case is very troubling .. for race relations, as well as to our right to bear arms..

Will be interesting to see all the details come out in court.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh, I had read that they were "out of contact" with him, but am unaware that he is missing.. wouldn't surprise me though.

They don't have to find him to press charges on him .. they'll find him eventually if they do! 

imo


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

He has officially been charged. The original facts of the case was that Zimmerman called the police stating someone "suspicious" was in the neighborhood. The police asked if he was following the suspect, and he said yes. He was told to not follow him. If I have right to be somewhere and feel threatened because someone if following me, i may become aggressive, in my own self defense. I am interested to see what plays out as well. 

This could all have been avoided if Zimmerman let the cops do their job.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

If they didn't press charges the man is a sitting duck anyways.
All people who have issued death threats and bounties for this man needs to be prosecuted. TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.
As to the whole issue who knows, needs to be and like said before he is going to court. 
I do hope all the information about him and the terrible situation comes to light so we can put this tragic mess to rest.
Praying for BOTH of their families!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

What did they charge him with? I've not heard of any official charges.. I know they have scheduled an announcement this eveing.....


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

texasgal said:


> ... and I'm a gun owner .. and DH is a concealed carrier. I believe in self defense and wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone in my home if I felt threatened.


Oh im not against people defending themselves in their own homes, If someone broke into my home I wouldnt be worried about their safety. You hear so many cases over here of ones breaking into peoples homes, the home owner attacking them in self defence and then the burgular trying to sue them!! I just mean that you do hear of alot of wackos having guns and I think that there should be tighter regulations for getting one.. not saying the like of yourself shouldnt be allowed one for self defence.. out of interest whats are the regulations in America for getting a gun?


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

I think I may have spoken too soon, they are planning on charging him sometime today.

George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin shooting, official says - The Washington Post


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Flygap - I know what you mean about all the threats, etc.

I had someone tell me today that they HAD to charge him because if they didn't, there would be riots ... aaaaarghhhh.

I said, NO .. they don't HAVE to charge him in fear of riots .. they will charge him because there is sufficient evidence of a crime...

Drives me crazy!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Breaking news is that he's being arrested and charged with murder at 6:00 pm tonight, so whoever said he's on the run is incorrect. They know exactly where to find him.

I don't know what degree of murder they'll charge him with, as that's up to the FL state prosecutor's office and the police.

I doubt they'll go for first degree, since I don't think it was premeditated. Doesn't make what he did right, I just don't think they can make a first degree charge stick.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Derrygirl .. I understood that .. no worries. You do have to take a course to be a concealed carrier, which includes a background check.

Unfortunately, many people carry that aren't licensed, you aren't required to be licensed to have a firearm in your house, and in Texas you can have one in your vehicle without a license.

Also, just as I suspect with Zimmerman, being overzealous isn't a crime, until you shoot someone without cause.... so he was "clean" right up until that point...

It's a bloody mess, that's what it is.

imo


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm getting sick of the photos they are showing on some channels of the news.
Yahoo's photo shows a cute kid smiling, on other sources they show him as older and frowning, same photo across the board with Zimmerman.
What are you guys seeing? The MEDIA is a mess.

I just can't BELIEVE what some people are saying/have said (news, not here, LOL!).
First degree is off the table I think.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Yup the media is ALWAYS a mess! That's why I break it down to:

Unarmed teen
Overzealous Watch dude.

40-something 911 calls this guy has made .. really? I keep waiting to find out that he is a law enforcement wannabe... 

And he is twice the size of the teen ..


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

FlyGap said:


> First degree is off the table I think.


My understanding is that first degree would have required a grand jury.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Painted, if they had enough evidence to try him for first degree, getting a Grand Jury seated wouldn't be that much of an issue.

I simply don't think they even want to try first degree since it would be _very_ hard to prove premeditation.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> What are you guys seeing? The MEDIA is a mess.
> I just can't BELIEVE what some people are saying/have said (news, not here, LOL!).
> First degree is off the table I think.


 
When I think about it the only photos Iv seen of Trayvon are of him and his family looking like a happy teenager and then a pic of Zimmerman that looks like it got be a mugshoot... probably passport photo... so there will be alot of people that automatically give their sympathy to Trayvons family.. but at this stage only Zimmerman and Trayvon really know what happened.

When it comes to a sentance.. if it was your brother/son/cousin etc youd probably want zimmerman locked up for life but the chances of that happening are slim, there will always be the argument of self-defence, but personally I dont think zimmerman should have killed him. He could have shot him in the leg and left him that he couldnt attack or run away and let the police take over from there... in my opinion, a young life wasted..


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

... or better yet ...

..when the 911 operator told him to STOP FOLLOWING HIM .. he could have walked away..

imo


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Painted, if they had enough evidence to try him for first degree, getting a Grand Jury seated wouldn't be that much of an issue.
> 
> I simply don't think they even want to try first degree since it would be _very_ hard to prove premeditation.


Agreed. Since the special prosecutor said earlier this week that she wasn't going to the grand jury, I assumed it was off the table.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yep, if the state prosecutor isn't willing to go before a Grand Jury, then first degree was never going to be considered.

Derry girl, what you don't understand is that it's VERY difficult to shoot someone in an extremity, which is why the idea is to shoot for the biggest target, which is the trunk of the body.

If you're going to pick up a firearm you have to be prepared to_ kill_ something. Not scare, wound, or threaten. That kind of garbage you only see in the movies. Nobody who is properly trained will take out a gun with the express purpose of NOT shooting to kill.

Guns are deadly tools, and unfortunately too many idiots who have no clue how to properly use them seem to own them.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> If you're going to pick up a firearm you have to be prepared to_ kill_ something. Not scare, wound, or threaten. That kind of garbage you only see in the movies. Nobody who is properly trained will take out a gun with the express purpose of NOT shooting to kill.


I completley understand the point your trying to make but in this case, this was a teenager that was unarmed... Yes there are and always will be circumstances where if someone is shot and killed it can be justified as self defence but in this case I will strongly stand by my opinion that this young lad should not have been killed. If Zimmerman was a guard for this gated community and was allowed to be armed he must have had some training that would have involved target practice and Im sure that he could have aimed for the leg or even fired a warning shot.. IMO


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

IF Zimmerman was being "severely" beaten by a very athletic large teenager then I think that justifies self defense. According to the "stand your ground" law though it is equal defense for equal force.
People and law enforcement who own/use guns are trained shoot to kill. The only reason a SANE person would pull a gun is because their life is threatened which is the only justifiable reason to pull a gun. Which COULD be the case here. We don't know.
The media and Zimmerman are saying that he did heed the dispatchers advice and he did head back to his truck where he was attacked. IF this is proven to be the case he had every right to protect himself. If it were me, a small female, I think things would be VERY different.

If he was being beaten then he couldn't have possibly shot for a limb, he couldn't according to the law shoot until he was physically attacked. Which is what he is stating. IDK. A warning shot would have been much better and I wish for anything that's what happened. Sad.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

No, being properly trained means someone aims for the biggest target,_ not_ the extremities. Don't believe what you see in the movies and on TV. 

Whatever Zimmerman did or didn't do, or what he _thought_ he was justified in doing, the fact is that he shot this young man. I don't know the whole story, and neither do any of the rest of us. Right now, it's simply speculation based on hysteria and biased media reports. Plus, since none of us were there, Zimmerman may have believed the teen had a gun as well. Did the young man even live in the gated community where he was shot? 

I'm NOT justifying what Zimmerman did, nor am I sticking up for him. What I AM saying is that none of us know what really happened that night. The only thing any of us know for certain is that a young man is dead.

By your own admission, you know nothing about firearms or the training people take to become proficient with them. Nobody, not even the police, take out their gun and try to shoot someone in the leg or arm. It simply isn't the mindset trained into those who handle and use firearms on a daily basis.

If I'm taking out my gun, I'm going to shoot to kill. That is the _only_ mindset to have, otherwise I could wind up on the business end of my own gun. The idea is to totally incapacitate your foe, not wound them.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Don't believe what you see in the movies and on TV.


I didnt say I was taking any of my thoughts/opinions from the movies or TV. I just remember a case here a few years ago that there was a man in a housing estate basically causing a riot and welding a sword at people, The guarda shoot him in the lower leg..he fell to the ground and they were able to get him cuffed and take him in and charge him. 

I think we might be getting mixed reports, what I heard on the news was that Trayvon was walking down the road past this gated community and Zimmerman basically just opened fire on him, no word of a fit breaking out. The first I heard of him apparently been attacked was what I read online earlier. I also heard that the police took in zimmermans father for questioning.. who knows maybe he hit his son to make zimmermans story fit... just a thought am not saying thats what happened


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

2nd degree murder charge ... prosecuters must have some evidence. I was expecting manslaughter ...


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

whats the max sentance for 2nd degree?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

texasgal said:


> ... or better yet ...
> 
> ..when the 911 operator told him to STOP FOLLOWING HIM .. he could have walked away..
> 
> imo


 
This!

When average people take law enforcement into their own hands, lawlessness is often the result. 

If you dont' like hearing all this stuff about him in the media (namely FoX and CNN) turn the TV off and do something else. It sucks that this man should be tried by the media instead of a judge and jury.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Derry girl said:


> whats the max sentance for 2nd degree?


Maximum of life in prison; Minimum of 25 years if firearm is used, otherwise a minimum of 20.5 years under sentencing guidelines for a person with a clean record.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

PaintHorseMares said:


> Maximum of life in prison; Minimum of 25 years if firearm is used, otherwise a minimum of 20.5 years under sentencing guidelines for a person with a clean record.


Buck... I swear I wish theyd introduce sentances like that over here.. unreal the amount of scumbags you see leaving court free or with 2 or 3 yr sentances. Its unreal. Make you sick to your stomach. Am not saying Zimmerman is a murderer but If he is I bet he wishs he was over here, would probably get 9 maybe 10 years and get out early for good behaviour!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Eh, there have been plenty of murderers get off over here, or get such a ridiculously small sentence it hardly seemed to matter. 

Regardless of the prison time, should he be found guilty of murder, that makes him a convicted felon
Even if he gets a short sentence, that conviction never goes away and will affect his ability to find a decent job and housing, as well as stripping him of his right to vote and own firearms.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Derry girl said:


> Today I was reading about an on-going case in the states about George Zimmerman, who shot an unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, (apparently) in self defence in a gated community.
> 
> Trayvon Martin's family and supporters have said Mr Zimmerman killed him in cold blood after suspecting the teenager was a criminal based on his race and the fact he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt.......The neighbourhood watchman's supporters have said he only opened fire after the teenager attacked him, broke his nose and banged his head against the pavement.
> 
> ...


As a firearms instructor, and former Urban Warfare Instructor in the Marines, i train my students firmly and properly to ingrain the methods into their subconscious mind.
To "shoot him in the arm or leg" is beyond preposterous, and is borderline ludacrous.
I was trained, and still train, to shoot center mass. That's the center of the chest for those not in the know.
We spent obnoxious amounts of time training to shoot 2 to the chest and 1 to the head.
Why? Two reasons. First, it incapacitates the attacker, and two, it eliminates the threat.
In any fight, it is win or lose, and losing is not an option.
In a fight for life, it is kill or be killed.
Did Zimmerman murder the kid?
I don't know.
I really don't much care either.
Truth be told, it raises more questions.
What was the kid doing in that area? It's a gated community. I'm pretty sure he wasn't selling cookies door to door.
What actions did the kid do to draw Zimmerman's attention?
What did he do to create the perceived threat?
Why didnt he comply with the instructions given?
Was he confrontational? Why?
All this will shake out in the trial, and i really hope that the truth comes out.
If the kid was wrong, he owns it.
If Zimmerman was wrong, he owns it, and does time in the slammer.
I think there will be some blame to be had on both sides.
I do hope that justice, and i do mean BLIND justice prevails.
There's entirely too much political grandstanding going on to ferret out any semblance of the truth at this point.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher and allowed the proper authorities to handle the incident none of this would have happened.
It is sad that this case has been tried and retried in the media and will for the next year or so. Shalom


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Azwantapaint said 

"What was the kid doing in that area? It's a gated community. I'm pretty sure he wasn't selling cookies door to door."

_____________________________

Um, he was living there.... walking home from the store.... 

~tg


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I've testified in enough criminal casess to know the jury can come up with some very crazy verdicts! I just read where Trayvon's mother believes the shooting was an accident. (I'm not saying I agree with her assessment, though.) She sounds like a very classy lady. As a mother myself, I can't begin to know how much pain she is in.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

gigem88 said:


> I've testified in enough criminal casess to know the jury can come up with some very crazy verdicts! I just read where Trayvon's mother believes the shooting was an accident. (I'm not saying I agree with her assessment, though.) She sounds like a very classy lady. As a mother myself, I can't begin to know how much pain she is in.



I wouldn't call her classy, I would call her tacky and looking to grand stand. I saw the news footage of her "plea" in D.C., were only an hour and some away and I was disgusted that she had asked to speak to the black caucus there, then you have Al Sharpton standing in the background along with Jesse Jackson. She then also trade marks her son's name...hmmm....

Then there is this:
The _Miami Herald_ reports that Martin was suspended from school three times over the past year, including once last year for spraying graffiti on school grounds. According to the paper, in the aftermath of that incident, a school police officer who confronted Martin the following day found a dozen items of women's jewelry and a screwdriver in his backpack.


The officer described the screwdriver as a "burglary tool" in his police report, although Martin was never charged or specifically disciplined for that incident.


Here's more on the incident from the _Herald_:


Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.​ 
Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.​ 
“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.​ 
Martin had never been arrested, according to police and his family. However, he was also suspended from school after being caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it, and once for tardiness and truancy.



A family lawyer, Benjamin Crump, confirmed the suspensions to ABC News on Tuesday, but called the information "irrelevant" to the case. He likewise cast doubts on the Sanford police leak confirming much of Zimmerman's account of the lead-up to the shooting, calling it a "conspiracy" to further cloud the case. ( Trayvon Martin parents in D.C., George Zimmerman says he was attacked.)

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not seeing the "innocent" young man that his parents are trying to portray and I did hear it on the news of the lawyer AND the father saying that what they had on Trayvon was irrelevant. When I heard that I shook my head and shut the tv off.

Zimmerman isn't going to ever be able to have a normal life again. I am really saddened as if this had been reversed or any other race, it would of gotten a blurb on the news and we all go on. There have been a lot of black on white crimes lately and we don't see anyone raising a big stink about them, or we even hearing about them, so is their life no less of importance as these two people?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I can't stand AS or JJ because I think they are more about turning everything into a race issue.

Zimmerman will never live a normal life?? At least he gets to live one. 

I don't care what Trayvon has done in the past. You can't justify the shooting of an unarmed teen based on his past (that you find out about AFTER he's dead).

Zimmerman, by his own words on the 911 tape, was the aggressor. You can NOT persue someone with a gun, shoot them dead like some vigilate Clint Eastwood wannabe, and then call it stand your ground .. you just can't. 

LE must have some evidence to charge him with 2nd degree .. I was truly expecting manslaughter..

I guess we wait and see how it plays out in court..

imo imo imo


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

GreySorrel said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I am not seeing the "innocent" young man that his parents are trying to portray..
> 
> Zimmerman isn't going to ever be able to have a normal life again.
> 
> There have been a lot of black on white crimes lately and we don't see anyone raising a big stink about them, or we even hearing about them, so is their life no less of importance as these two people?



I know everyones got their own opinion on this case, so am not going to say your wrong but when it comes to any antics Trayvon got up to at school I dont think that he should be branded as a bad lad for it. Who knows maybe he did get the jewellery from a friend, maybe he needed the screwdriver for something completley innocent.. who knows. Like any 17 yr old lad caught with that stuff in his bag their going to panic.. I would, you dont want to get into trouble, so you just play dumb. I remember a friend once brought a bottle of vodka into school one day to try and be "cool" and she got caught and played dumb, said some1 planted it in her bag.. biggest load of rubbish but she didnt want to admit it and get into trouble.

In regards to Zimmerman leading a normal life again... why should he? He shot an unarmed lad that was walking back after buying sweets.. how would you feel if it hada been your son? and I keep reading reports that zimmerman said Trayvon attacked him, broke his nose and smacked his head on the road.. I havent been able to find one picture of his injuries.. surely the police would have taken pictures of the injuries to prove zimmermans story, and everything gets leaked to the media these days, surely thered be at least 1picture

And you say about how other similiar stories dont get reported, yes I will agree with that, there are alot of cases over here aswell that just go un-noticed.. but I think this case gathered so much media attention because of Trayvons age and how all the police could find on him was sweets. I was listening to the 911 call made by 1 of the residents of that gated community, and she said she could hear screaming, someone shouting help help and then she heard a gun...

I think that phone call alone shows that there is something seriously wrong with the circumstances of this boys death.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

azwantapaint said:


> To "shoot him in the arm or leg" is beyond preposterous, and is borderline ludacrous.


How? Why?
If I was walking past a gated community either on purpose or by accident I really hope someone would give me the benifit of the doubt and not just shoot me dead!

Would you feel the same way?


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

I too conceal carry and when taught by an instructor and my husband, who has won many awards for his shooting skill in the military, over seas and as a civilian, I was taught, you aim for center mass. Why you ask? Because when your defending yourself and you shoot someone in the arm or leg, they can still potentially harm you, you shoot to stop them...end of story.

Yes a life was taken, a young one at that. Perhaps if his parents stepped up and taught him right from wrong, told him stealing or lying is wrong, that you are polite and cooperative, etc. their son may still be alive today. If my son was smart or snotty to an adult, he wouldn't do it a 2nd time, I guarantee you that. I was only pointing out that the boy wasn't innocent like his parents want everyone to think he is, he was a punk. Again, no it doesn't give anyone a reason to shoot him, but I am going to wait to see what comes out in the trial.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Derry girl said:


> How? Why?


Derry, more than one of us have explained to you the reasoning behind firearms training. If you fail to grasp it after having the same thing told to you over and over by different people the disconnect is with YOU, not with the information given.

You've been told WHY we're taught to aim for center mass. What about that don't you understand? NOBODY is trained just to _wound. _I simply don't understand why you seem to be unable to process the information.

Besides, it's pretty obvious you're buying into the 'poor innocent young man' pabulum being slobbed out by the media. They want a scapegoat, so have chosen Mr. Zimmerman. It could have very well gone the other way, but this was the angle they chose.

I say let the criminal justice system do its job. If a jury of his peers finds him guilty of murder, then he'll suffer the consequences. I personally don't know what happened so am going by the, 'innocent until proven guilty' stance.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

GreySorrel said:


> Why you ask? Because when your defending yourself and you shoot someone in the arm or leg, they can still potentially harm you, you shoot to stop them...end of story.


Yes I c what your saying, Iam not aruging that point.. but in this case the question is was it really necessary for Trayvon to be shoot dead. In the police call Zimmerman made he said he was following Trayvon and the police man told him not to!! ..he continued to and ended up shooting him.. he could have fired a warning shot and shouted that the police were on their way. Yes I would back zimmermans case if Trayvon hada been armed but he wasnt. He didnt need to die.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Derry, The "shoot for center mass" is preceded with:

NEVER NEVER NEVER pull your gun unless your life is threatened and you intend to kill your target.

Most people that carry will never have to pull their gun, nor should they. It's there for those extreme times when there is NO OTHER CHOICE.

Don't pull it, unless you have no other choice than to kill someone. No such thing as a warning shot .. if you have time for that, your life isn't threatened and your gun needs to stay concealed.

That's the reasoning.

~tg


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Derry, more than one of us have explained to you the reasoning behind firearms training. If you fail to grasp it after having the same thing told to you over and over by different people, the disconnect is with YOU, not with the information given.
> 
> You've been told WHY we're taught to aim for center mass. What about that don't you understand? NOBODY is trained to _wound. _



Why are you making out am stupid? I understand what your trained to do but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it!


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I just hope JUSTICE is done and done correctly. I pray that this man is found either guilty or not guilty according to the TRUE evidence.
It appears that this man (supposedly) was a pretty great guy, regardless of this event. He and his wife (supposedly) have been mentoring and tutoring at risk children of minority races, yet that goes by the wayside according to the wackos claiming race was a factor.

Unfortunately no good deed goes unpunished. And I pray there is hell to pay if this man is actually guilty. This event has shed so much light on the actual race status in this country and brought out the TRUE COLORS of people and the leaders of our society. If this was truly a white/black issue and the situation was reversed and say a group like the KKK were saying these kinds of things where would we be? This wasn't a race issue, an overzealous man protecting his community from a rash of crimes? Yeah. Absolutely terrifying.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

A person can still attack and kill you if you don't soot for the TORSO. Clipping an arm or a leg can actually make matters worse if the perp is high or drunk, then adrenaline kicks in from the pain and you get a super perp. If one MUST draw, then the situation is such that a life is on the line and the attacker must be taken out, not merely wounded.

Is Zimmerman guilty? court will decide.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Derry girl said:


> Why are you making out am stupid? I understand what your trained to do but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it!


You're acting as if you don't understand what you've been told by constantly asking why, so if anyone's making you look stupid it's _you_.

You don't have to agree with American firearms training, but stop with the silly 'what if' scenarios. NOBODY shoots to wound, period. Whether or not you _like_ it, is completely immaterial.

If you take out your gun, the idea is to _kill_. Which is why I've never pulled mine on another human being, and I hope to God I never need to.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

FlyGap said:


> A person can still attack and kill you if you don't soot for the TORSO. Clipping an arm or a leg can actually make matters worse if the perp is high or drunk, then adrenaline kicks in from the pain and you get a super perp. If one MUST draw, then the situation is such that a life is on the line and the attacker must be taken out, not merely wounded.
> 
> Is Zimmerman guilty? court will decide.


And many of us also think: Tried by 12 or carried by 6....you decide which you want to do. Also, center mass is bigger and for some, easier to hit in a panic.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Center mass....that reminds of a story me ex-husband told me. He worked for the Federal BOP and there was an escape from a women's prison, in another state. Well the correctional officer shot her in the butt as she was trying to escape. When asked why he shot her there, he said that WAS center mass :O


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Derry, you are not stupid. Your questions are not stupid.

It's hard to understand when a life is lost that there couldn't have been another alternative.

I believe there was. The gun should have never come out. The perp should have never persued. Neighborhood watch should be just that .. WATCH. Then call LE. He wasn't in immediate danger of his life when the 911 operator told him to stop following...imo.

Once the gun comes out .. it's center mass. The issue for me is .. should the gun have come out? I think it didn't have to happen.

~tg


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> You're acting as if you don't understand what you've been told by constantly asking why, so if anyone's making you look stupid it's _you_.
> 
> You don't have to agree with American firearms training, but stop with the silly 'what if' scenarios. NOBODY shoots to wound, period. Whether or not you _like_ it, is completely immaterial.


You think I sound stupid, I think you sound rude!

Am not acting like anything, Iam just expressing my thoughts.. maybe you just dont understand me!!

I dont think my "what if" comments are as you put it "silly" at all. All I am saying is that in this particular case from what you hear on the news, zimmerman didnt really have enough reason to shot this boy... in my own opinion... its not stupid, its not silly, its my opinion.


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## Derry girl (Nov 20, 2011)

gigem88 said:


> When asked why he shot her there, he said that WAS center mass :O


Even with the sad subject matter of this thread... that did make me laugh


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I agree, killing (whether justified or not) is sad, very sad. The deceased is someone's son, daughter, mom, etc. and the ones left behind have to grieve. The shooter is also affected (at least I believe most are) because they have to live with the knowledge they took another human's life. Ok, late in the afternoon and I'm rambling. I need more caffiene!


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## AshleyCL (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm glad they've finally charged him. He had no business with that kid and certainly didn't have the motive to shoot. Zimmerman made a poor judgement call and he should have to live with that. In jail. The stand your ground law works fine when it's not being abused. I refuse to believe that Zimmerman was being beaten so badly that he feared for his life. Please. I'm thankful for that law, because you better believe if someone tries to break into my home, I'll be shooting.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

> =Derry girl;1451508
> All I am saying is that in this particular case from what you *hear on the news*, zimmerman didnt really have enough reason to shot this boy... in my own opinion... its not stupid, its not silly, its my opinion.



The bolded statement is where the problem starts. Neither you nor I know what really happened. Listening to the highly censored reports on the news is simply too incomplete to base ANY opinion on. The media in our country, unlike many other countries, gears its reports for the sensational. It sells better. If the facts are more mundane, they will focus on any "fact" that might create more controversy. Unfortunately, that's what happens here. The PRESS decides who the true victims are and gears their reports (AND the photos provided) as such. SO, be very careful about deciding who is guilty based solely on media reports, please.

I am also a firearms instructor for law enforcement officers. It is very important to understand that, as others have said, wounded people can do massive damage to others. As for what led up to Zimmerman's decision to shoot, neither you nor I know what happened. It is not possible to make a judgement based on what has been said in the press.

As for the mother's statements to the press, her initial statement admitted that she believed it was likely an accidental shooting. The family's lawyers QUICKLY had her change her "meaning" to say that she never believed it was anything but murder. Sad to say that people are desperate to make it a racial issue. I was saddened to see the pressure she must have been under causing her to actually change her statement.

Again, the trial will, hopefully, bring out a better understanding of what really happened. To say the kids history is of no relevance is silly, IMO. One must know the whole picture and past behavior, on both of the involved people's part, may have extreme relevance in this situation.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Derry girl said:


> How? Why?
> If I was walking past a gated community either on purpose or by accident I really hope someone would give me the benifit of the doubt and not just shoot me dead!
> 
> Would you feel the same way?


If you were walking past, i would probably greet you accordingly, eyeball you for possible threats, make mental notes of your appearance, possessions, identifying information, and observe you for a few moments to ascertain your intentions. 
If you displayed hostility or ill intent, i would press the issue to get you to commit to a course of action or break contact.
The results would be totally up to you.
I would hope you'd break contact, and be on your merry way, instead of a physical confrontation. 
The last thing i would want to do is employ deadly force, and i would do my very best to maintain control of the situation until higher authorities arrive.
But, if faced with a situation where my life is in danger, you bet your booty i would draw my firearm and attempt to gain compliance with my instructions.
Fail to do so, IE pursuing me, and you can be guranteed 3 pieces of copper jacketed lead coming for you at 1400 feet per second - 2 to the chest and one to the head.
Its a final endeavor in the protection of life and limb, only used when all other lesser means have failed to accomplish resolving the situation.
It's an ugly thing, of that there is no question.
Its something i truly hope i never have to do.
But rest assured that, if faced with a similar situation, where someone has put my life or my loved ones lives at risk, i WILL act very decisively, and I will end the situation by any means necessary.
The vast majority of instances where deadly force is involved are instances where someone was someplace they didnt belong, doing something they shouldnt have been doing in the first place, and they were met with force to get them to cease their actions.
If they stopped at that point, they might be alive to tell the tale. Alas, they chose to press the issue, and got perished.
It was their choice to press the issue instead of breaking contact.
It was their choice to enter into the situation in the first place.
Its my choice to let you have your way or compel you to change your course of action.
Hence "stand your ground" is a very effective means for law abiding folks to defend what is theirs, and protect their own from harm
I have a sign on my door that states explicitly "If you come through this door, you will be killed" in English and Spanish.
Can't say it any more plain than that.
Invade my home, you will die.
Attack my family, you will die.
Harm my animals...yep, you guessed it. (we have laws that allow us to defend livestock with deadly force when used as food)
Come to my door in a friendly and cordial fashion? Let's have us a cup of coffee and jaw jack a while.
The point being that you make choices as to whether you are perceived as the friend or foe. Those choices are strictly up to you.
As an aside, i have a drug dealer that lives up the street. I caught them scoping my house at one point.
I put a used target in the front window which had the head and chest perforated well, no stray rounds. 
Haven't seen them since.
I think they got the hint.


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## tbstorm (Dec 16, 2010)

My dad says that the safest place for this man now is in jail. Its a tragic event and i've heard many different things on the news, over facebook etc. etc. I just feel for his family and friends, it never should have happened!


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

This entire incident is sad and unfortunate. Does one even wonder why this matter has gained so much attention? Was this incident any worse than any other of the shooting crimes just this year? 

What about our government run program *Fast & Furious*? The media has made this a racial hate crime and has garnered the attention of everyone. The President calls and speaks to the parents of Trayvon Martin, and Holder, the head of the DOJ, wants this matter looked into and investigated. So do we all. Has the President called the family of Brian Terry? Has the President called for an investigation into Fast & Furious? Has Holder complied with Congressional subpoenas? Has Holder been held accountable for his actions, resulting in thousands of Mexicans being slain & one of our very own Border Patrol officers being slain? Has Holder been fired or suspended for lying to Congress or for the death of Brian Terry? Has the head of HAS, *Janet Napolitano, been held accountable for her part in Fast & Furious? Has the media reported on these crimes or Fast & Furious like this case with *Trayvon Martin? Has Holder been investigated for his possible connection and involvement with the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995?

Where is the outrage with Fast & Furious? Why are the American people allowing this to happen? Why is America slowly becoming not much more than a 3rd world nation? Why are the people of this great country not holding this administration accountable? Why are we not demanding answers to all the questions that deserve to be answered? Why is not the government afraid of the people instead of the people being afraid of the government?

Yes, I want to see justice. If he is guilty, then let him pay for his crime, but it is time to stop dwelling on a case like this because of the media hype, and open our eyes to the bigger problems that face every one of us.

If Zimmerman is going to be tried for murder, then Holder should be tried for mass murder and *Napolitano & Obama should be tried as an accomplice to murder.*


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

texasgal said:


> Derry, The "shoot for center mass" is preceded with:
> 
> NEVER NEVER NEVER pull your gun unless your life is threatened and you intend to kill your target.
> 
> ...


I've had the firearms training here in the Midwest and this is exactly what we were taught. First, you don't put yourself in situations where you need a gun. Second, if you think a situation isn't safe and you need a gun to feel safe, avoid the situation. Third, you don't pull the gun unless your life is threatened (not property, not peace of mind - LIFE). Fourth, if you have to pull the gun, it's because there are no other options and you have to shoot to kill, hoping that you at least can disable. 

The science of ballistics is such that if you don't aim for center mass, you will have an unacceptable chance of missing or having the bullet go through the leg and hit an innocent person in a nearby house, etc. That is simply not acceptable. 

I agree that whatever Travon was up to, it probably wasn't worth his life. I also believe in my heart that we will find out that Zimmerman may have over-reacted. In our society here in the U.S., we hear thousands of stories on the news about drive-by shootings and gang violence and drug-crazed violence. One of the things that we are taught in general safety and firearm safety is that you can never assume that the person who is threatening you is sane - if they are drugged up, they have the strength of five men and their judgment is totally flawed so they're not making good decisions, even if you are warning them about calling 911 or using the gun. If Travon had his hand in his sweatshirt and it 'looked' like he was pointing a gun (and you can't tell if it's a finger pointing or a gun pointing inside a pocket), then Zimmerman would have truly thought he was armed. Let's be honest, if I were walking down the street unarmed and wanted someone to leave me alone, I would stick my hand in a pocket and 'make like' I had a gun in there!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Elky a young man is murdered in Florida by an overzealous crime watch volunteer. That has nothing to do with the 48,000 people that have been murdered in Mexico in a drug war.
Our President has no connection to the war between those drug cartel that started 6 years ago.
The gun laws in this country however have. By allowing people to purchase numerous guns easily this country escalates the war. Drug use in this country gives those cartel Billions of dollars each year.
Those 48,000 men women and children have been murdered by this countries appetite for drugs. Not our President. Shalom


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Elky a young man is murdered in Florida by an overzealous crime watch volunteer. That has nothing to do with the 48,000 people that have been murdered in Mexico in a drug war.
> Our President has no connection to the war between those drug cartel that started 6 years ago.
> The gun laws in this country however have. *By allowing people to purchase numerous guns easily this country escalates the war*. Drug use in this country gives those cartel Billions of dollars each year.
> Those 48,000 men women and children have been murdered by this countries appetite for drugs. Not our President. Shalom



I beg to disagree with you on the above highlighted. I am an FFL and we do background checks on everyone who purchases a weapon from us. Just this past month or two ago, Virginia passed a law that will allow a person to purchase more than one handgun a month and will come into effect June 1st of this year. If you go back and look at your stats, those weapons you say escalate the war is bogus information, as many are stolen or purchased off the street, they are NOT purchased legally. And please note, it isn't the weapon that you need to blame, it is the person behind the weapon that is wielding it. Remember: 
"Quemadmodum Gladius Neminem Occidit, Occidentis Telum Est." Or...A sword never kills anybody; It's a tool in the killers hand's." By Seneca "The Younger"


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Along the border there are many people that can pass a background check and they sell that weapon to someone across the border for a couple of hundred more than you bought it for. Those drug cartels control both sides of the border. Just as many are purchased this way than those that are stolen. With the amount of guns these cartels have there has to be more than one source. I stand by my post. Shalom


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey, Elky, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Haliburton got a NO-bid contract to supply the wars in the Middle East when Chaney was a former big wig in that company and still receives funds from it. Talk about corruption.

As for Zimmerman...I see lots of conclusions here based on complete hearsay. I am hoping that the trial will iron out some of the many rumors bouncing around.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Elky a young man is murdered in Florida by an overzealous crime watch volunteer. That has nothing to do with the 48,000 people that have been murdered in Mexico in a drug war.





dbarabians said:


> Our President has no connection to the war between those drug cartel that started 6 years ago.
> The gun laws in this country however have. By allowing people to purchase numerous guns easily this country escalates the war. Drug use in this country gives those cartel Billions of dollars each year.
> Those 48,000 men women and children have been murdered by this countries appetite for drugs. Not our President. Shalom



The Zimmerman, Martin incident is indeed very unfortunate. It has been made into a public sham because of racism and a drive to push for more legislation for gun control. plain and simple.
The cartels were pretty much given weapons from the U.S. in an attack against our gun laws here by our DOJ. It was an outright attack against the 2nd Amendment, which has been documented in emails within the DOJ & holder himself. When our DOJ feeds these guns to the cartels and our President, just as past Presidents, allow an open border such as along the south, not much more can be expected. But to do this for nothing more than Gun Control here is just plain BS.



Allison Finch said:


> Hey, Elky, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Haliburton got a NO-bid contract to supply the wars in the Middle East when Chaney was a former big wig in that company and still receives funds from it. Talk about corruption.





Allison Finch said:


> As for Zimmerman...I see lots of conclusions here based on complete hearsay. I am hoping that the trial will iron out some of the many rumors bouncing around.



Yeah, good luck with that one. Halliburton is about the most corrupt operation going, along with Chaney. And yet there is no public or media outrage about them either. I think it is going to be hard for Zimmerman to get a fair trial. The media has pretty much destroyed any chance for a fair trial. They have already pretty much tried and convicted him.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Along the border there are many people that can pass a background check and they sell that weapon to someone across the border for a couple of hundred more than you bought it for. Those drug cartels control both sides of the border. Just as many are purchased this way than those that are stolen. With the amount of guns these cartels have there has to be more than one source. I stand by my post. Shalom


And the border of southern Mexico has more arms coming in than their northern border with the U.S.
The drug cartels would not control our border if our government did its job in the first place.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Elky, I have been to the border area numerous times here in Texas.
The culture there is the same as that in Mexico. The area is one of the poorest in the USA. Large areas are rural and sparsely inhabited. Patroling it is nearly impossible. Corruption on both sides is rampant. All these issues need to be addressed if we want to get serious about controling our border.
As far as Zimmerman is concerned HE is the only one who knows what happened. The Stand Your Ground Law needs to be examined or rewritten to avoid other cases like this. Shalom


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Elky, I have been to the border area numerous times here in Texas.
> The culture there is the same as that in Mexico. The area is one of the poorest in the USA. Large areas are rural and sparsely inhabited. Patroling it is nearly impossible. Corruption on both sides is rampant. All these issues need to be addressed if we want to get serious about controling our border.
> As far as Zimmerman is concerned HE is the only one who knows what happened. The Stand Your Ground Law needs to be examined or rewritten to avoid other cases like this. Shalom


Agreed, it is a huge task to control our southern border, but a task which needs to be fully addressed regardless. Part of addressing it would be to make the USA less desireable. No free education, no free healthcare, no welfare, more pressure, fines and jail time for employers found guilty of hiring illegals and the deporting of illegals when they are caught. That in itself would slow down a lot of our illegal problems. 

Yes Zimmerman is the only one who really knows what happened. He is either guilty or innocent. No need to change the law and restrict somone who may truly defend themself within the SYG law.

It is a shame that our own government seemingly cares more about citizens in other countries than the citizens of our own USA.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Elky said:


> Agreed, it is a huge task to control our southern border, but a task which needs to be fully addressed regardless. Part of addressing it would be to make the USA less desireable. No free education, no free healthcare, no welfare, more pressure, fines and jail time for employers found guilty of hiring illegals and the deporting of illegals when they are caught. That in itself would slow down a lot of our illegal problems.


You're going to have to do alot worse than that to keep people out of the States. Mexicans don't come here for healthcare, education or to go on welfare. They come for some resemblance of a better life from horrible conditions - conditions that we as Americans will never know. They are dirt poor with nothing. When they do make it across the border they are content doing the God awful jobs that we, as Americans, don't want to do. Americans are the ones who don't do the minimum wage jobs but rather, go on welfare. It's not the illegal immigrants.

So no, I don't think that would make a bit of difference. You'd have many more Americans screaming than illegals.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

They come here for a better life, a life with guarantees of a better life with or without a job. 50 years ago, Americans did those jobs. It was employers in this country that lowered the wage standard and would hire the illegal, creating in time the lazy American.

Our system is broken, and we have a do nothing government to address any of it.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Elky said:


> 50 years ago, Americans did those jobs.


IMO, it has always been immigrants who have done these jobs, whether it was yesterday, 50 years ago or 150 years ago. They may not have been illegal, but they were immigrants. Even back then, they did not come for any of the things you listed. They came for freedom and a better life.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Elky with 48,000 people murdered thousands more have fled north not only for jobs but for safety.
This country has an interest in the economic and civil unrest in Mexico.
If we do nothing to change the situation then people will continue to flee north for a better life.
You cannot get public assistance if you are not a citizen in this country.
The majority of undocumented workers are law abiding and hardworking.
Unemployment and Social Security are denied them even though they pay into the Social Security acoounts if they receive a paycheck.
The economy of Texas and the USA would collapse if they were deported.

As for the Stand Your Ground Laws if Zimmerman is found guilty or not the law will be changed if only because of political pressure.
Defending your self or your home and family are one thing but chasing someone in the rain and dark makes you the aggressor.
If Zimmerman were a cop he would have been relieved of duty and investigated. Because of this law he was questioned and set free.
The law was used as the reason for this. Right or wrong this gave the appearance of allowing Zimmerman to get off scot free.
Minorities and civil rights organizations then questioned the equality of our legal system. With the USA's history of inequality do you blame them? 
Shalom


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Elky said:


> They come here for a better life, a life with guarantees of a better life with or without a job. 50 years ago, Americans did those jobs. It was employers in this country that lowered the wage standard and would hire the illegal, creating in time the lazy American.
> 
> Our system is broken, and we have a do nothing government to address any of it.


 
Employers lowered wages and cut benefits and such, making such jobs less desireable to Americans because they have to compete with all the manufacturers overseas, who make things using labor that works happily for a 4th what a worker asks for here. AND, the stuff they make cheaply , comes here and floods the markets, and consumers want the cheapest they can get, cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, ala Walmart, which makes American manufacturers unable to meet that bottom line pricing. IT's a race to the bottom. The only way farmers can make it is with labor from Mexico. The only way you can get food as cheap as you get it in the super market, is through labor from Mexico.

If we want to sever the use of such cheap labor from Mexcio, be prepared to pay the REAL cost for things made /grown in America.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Years ago teens flocked to the fields to make some money. Today, you can't even find ones to put up hay so everyone relies on Mexicans. I'll tell you one thing, though.... they work fast, do a good job, and don't take breaks.


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