# The Gypsy Vanner debate...



## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I completely agree that Gypsy Vanners are WAY overpriced. (20 grand for a horse that isn't trained in any discipline? Just because it's pretty? Seriously?!)

But you anti-Gypsy Vanner people make it sound like the expensive American ones are the exact same as the dirt-cheap cart horses in Europe. They're not the same at all.

This is a picture I took of a "colored cob" in Ireland: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2785343026_ec79cb6b36_b.jpg

Now here's a "Gypsy Vanner" for sale in the US: Headliner

Sure, they're the same breed... but one is badly-bred and the other is not.

What's wrong with paying more money for a horse that's well-bred? We do that with every horse breed in the world.

$20,000 Quarter Horse: Quarter Horse For Sale, Tennessee, Thompsons Station

$550 Quarter Horse: Quarter Horse For Sale, Arkansas, knoxville


I guess I'm just sick of people saying Americans are so stupid for paying so much money for a horse that's dirt cheap in Ireland and the UK when they aren't even close to the same quality. You can't compare them.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

You can get a painted draft at an auction for around $500. I love Gypsy Vanners but I could never pay that much for one. 

On a side note that QH has a funky looking head (almost Arab looking to me).


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> You can get a painted draft at an auction for around $500. I love Gypsy Vanners but I could never pay that much for one.


Yeah, one that looks like the horse in the first picture.

You missed the point...


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

Where I live, I can get a two-year-old registered Canadien horse for 1200$
or, I can get a weanling Gypsie horse for 12,000$.

I'll stick with my country's endangered breed.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I didn't miss your point at all, lol. I was agreeing actually. Gypsies are expensive and it's because of breeding. But if you wanted to get something that looked something like a Gypsy they are available.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> I didn't miss your point at all, lol. I was agreeing actually. Gypsies are expensive and it's because of breeding. But if you wanted to get something that looked something like a Gypsy they are available.


Oh, haha... It sounded like you were trying to argue with me. Sorry!


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## TwisterRush (Sep 8, 2009)

i completely agree, i dont think i could ever pay that much for a horse (sorry to who have) 
If the horse isnt trained, well than what point is there? i can get a horse practically identical, trained just as good as that and for much more cheaper. 

I just think that some people are asking to much of people, and the price is so high well i think people will look at it and pass by it. IMHO. 

I would love to own one, but the price is totally out of my range


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I've seen GV foals go for as low as $4000. 

A horse is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. People must be willing to pay big bucks for them, so therefore they are worth it.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Irish Cobs/Gypsy Vanners have become very popular horses to own, so they are selling for insanely high prices - which means irresponsible breeding is rearing it's ugly head - people want a coloured horse with a long mane and tail and heavy feathering on the legs ... 

A few years ago you had to practically pay someone to take a coloured cob off you!


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

what it is with gypsy cobs, is that its more who,s bred the horse then the actual horse and if your not in that circle you will never see half your money back if you go to sell'i know men[who arent wealthy]with mares and stallions as good as any that ever put a foot on the ground,and struggle to get 3 or 4 grand,but let the money men buy and they will take 20g plus no prob


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

I am sorry but I live in Ireland and over here I have seen more of the second picture standing for stud and having well bred foals over here than the first picture you showed so I am sorry but not all " coloured cobs" in Ireland look like the first picture that you showed.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

savvylover112 said:


> I am sorry but I live in Ireland and over here I have seen more of the second picture standing for stud and having well bred foals over here than the first picture you showed so I am sorry but not all " coloured cobs" in Ireland look like the first picture that you showed.



Okay... That just proves my point even more. European people are willing to pay a lot of money for a well-bred "colored cob," so why is everybody calling us stupid for doing it?


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

I have never heard people say that americans are stupid for doing it but I have heard people say that they think ANYONE who pays money like that for a horse that hasn't been proven in any discipline is stupid not just Americans


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

its not stupid,but when americans come to europe to buy, dealers ramp the price up thinkin all yanks are rich,i,m irish but brought up in england when i go to fairs such as spancil and carramee in eire i always get some one else to ask the price,if i asked with my english accent they would ramp on me.but theres a saying a horse is only worth what the next man will pay


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

*not all 20 grand*

look this mare and foal 2500 and this foal less then 700 and theres plenty more similar priced


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh no, another debate about the magical beasts that poop butterflies.






If only. 

GVs = glorified spotty draft mutts. You pay for the hair, IMO.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

How much does it cost to ship to America? That may be a factor in the imported ones....right?


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

well joe you could be right


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

well sunny i dont know about butterflies but i wis i had this one pooping at my place


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

They certainly are pretty. : D


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## bubblegum (Oct 6, 2009)

i think you picked a rather shabby example of a coloured cob in ireland, here is a much better example for you
For Sale: Cob. - DoneDeal.ie
For Sale: *****A MUST SEE GYPSY COB STALLION****. Price: €3,500 - DoneDeal.ie
For Sale: ***heavy hairy colt foal***. - DoneDeal.ie


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Even if I had the money laying around, I would not pay $20,000 for an untrained anything.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

don,t blame you i wouldent give it for untrained or trained


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

bubblegum said:


> i think you picked a rather shabby example of a coloured cob in ireland, here is a much better example for you
> For Sale: Cob. - DoneDeal.ie
> For Sale: *****A MUST SEE GYPSY COB STALLION****. Price: €3,500 - DoneDeal.ie
> For Sale: ***heavy hairy colt foal***. - DoneDeal.ie


you picked some good examples bubblegum,the elvis horse was bought on appleby 3 or4yrs ago he,s 15hh maybe bigger,i deal with tom devine,and believe me that horse throws good foals


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes I agree with Bubblegum about that


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

jimmy said:


> well sunny i dont know about butterflies but i wis i had this one pooping at my place


Heck, I'd only buy one if they pooped _money_. Then maybe I'd consider one.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> I completely agree that Gypsy Vanners are WAY overpriced. (20 grand for a horse that isn't trained in any discipline? Just because it's pretty? Seriously?!)
> 
> But you anti-Gypsy Vanner people make it sound like the expensive American ones are the exact same as the dirt-cheap cart horses in Europe. They're not the same at all.
> 
> ...



I know the owner of The Headliner and N'co Stables. She is a very nice person very knowledgeable of the breed and PROVES her horses. You get what you pay for.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

jimmy said:


> look this mare and foal 2500 and this foal less then 700 and theres plenty more similar priced



I can see why that horse is that price. Looks like it is over priced to me. But then again I am use to seeing very nice GV.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I could see spending 20,000 on something that had training and was going to get me somewhere...but a vanner does not fit that bill IMO


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I haven't seen many American GV's that are "well bred" either... Fugly Horse often uses them as examples of bad conformation.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I'm not going to pay $20,000 for ANY horse. (Unless it happens to poop butterflies, money, or pure gold.) Gypsy's are cute, admittedly, but I just don't like them much and don't understand the allure. 

Hair + spots = $20,000 horse? Not in my books.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I haven't seen many American GV's that are "well bred" either... Fugly Horse often uses them as examples of bad conformation.


I can drive about 10 min and find an entire barn full of them. Around here there are several very good breeders of GV. With proven stock. Good ones just like any breed or discipline are out there and you will pay for the good ones.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

bubblegum said:


> i think you picked a rather shabby example of a coloured cob in ireland, here is a much better example for you
> For Sale: Cob. - DoneDeal.ie
> For Sale: *****A MUST SEE GYPSY COB STALLION****. Price: €3,500 - DoneDeal.ie
> For Sale: ***heavy hairy colt foal***. - DoneDeal.ie


Those aren't the cobs who trot around the streets giving rides to people. Those are the horses I'm talking about...








Most of you are completely missing my point. I agree that they are ridiculously overpriced for what they are! I'm not disagreeing with that at all. My problem is with the people who say that they're the same as the horses that are driven around the streets of Ireland and the UK. I just don't think they are.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

CloudsMystique said:


> My problem is with the people who say that they're the same as the horses that are driven around the streets of Ireland and the UK. I just don't think they are.


You are right - obviously IF they were the same then all GVs (or look-alikes) would be $1000! People who state that they are the same thing obviously that don't know what they're talking about. 

In my opinion, it's like saying a Doc Bar or Dash for Cash stud is the same as the local stud at your neighbor's farm that was backyard bred but looks kind of like either of those studs. Makes no sense to me. Breeds are expensive for a reason, not just because someone got away with overpricing a horse 'that one time' and a trend picked up. People are dumb, but they're not THAT dumb.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

dashygirl said:


> You are right - obviously IF they were the same then all GVs (or look-alikes) would be $1000! People who state that they are the same thing obviously that don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> In my opinion, it's like saying a Doc Bar or Dash for Cash stud is the same as the local stud at your neighbor's farm that was backyard bred but looks kind of like either of those studs. Makes no sense to me. Breeds are expensive for a reason, not just because someone got away with overpricing a horse 'that one time' and a trend picked up. People are dumb, but they're not THAT dumb.



Haha, yeah, I totally agree with you.


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay.
First of all, the stallion you posted is a coloured cob. It's coloured, it's a cob. It's just groomed and has a long mane.
My friend has one exactly the same, there's one in the field owned by the Gypsy's who looks shabby, yes, but when it's actually groomed it looks decent.
A cob is a cob whatever country it's in.

The Americans pay for Vanners like we pay for QH's.
Same way peeps in the UK and USA pay out of the rear for Friesians(sp?) yet the farm my uncle knows in Germany pay tuppence for them.
I wouldn't say Cobs are cheap bought privately, here in the UK you'd be paying £3,000 for a decent looking, well ridden Gypsy Cob.

Meh, whatever lol.
I'll stick to my freebies and the ones people think wont amount to anything lol.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Those links of horses that bubblegum posted they are the types of horse driving round the streets of the little village up the road from me they are all well bred giving pony rides lol they are not the example you gave of ones from Ireland sorry to tell you I live in Ireland and bubblegum was giving better examples


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Aoi Miku said:


> Okay.
> First of all, the stallion you posted is a coloured cob. It's coloured, it's a cob. It's just groomed and has a long mane.
> My friend has one exactly the same, there's one in the field owned by the Gypsy's who looks shabby, yes, but when it's actually groomed it looks decent.
> A cob is a cob whatever country it's in.


What does that have to do with anything? They're the same thing.

The grooming and the long mane are not the only differences. Look a little closer... conformation-wise.



Aoi Miku said:


> The Americans pay for Vanners like we pay for QH's.
> Same way peeps in the UK and USA pay out of the rear for Friesians(sp?) yet the farm my uncle knows in Germany pay tuppence for them.
> I wouldn't say Cobs are cheap bought privately, here in the UK you'd be paying £3,000 for a decent looking, well ridden Gypsy Cob.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You pay better money for a better horse no matter what breed it is or what country it's in.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I know a very good looking coloured cob like the good one you posted first and he's won shows, does jumping and hacking and I'm in England and I see them all the time so not exactly sure why you're saying only the crap cobs are ridden here unless I've got the wrong end of the stick. The reason why those GVs are so expensive is because there is a market that will pay that much for them so if you're moaning because of prices then it's because people in your country have spent that much. It's like certain breeds over here you haven't got a chance of getting cheaply with out paying an arm and a leg for. Mind you I could get a fantastic GV type stallion for just under £6000 and he's a proven stud and show horse.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Lis said:


> I know a very good looking coloured cob like the good one you posted first and he's won shows, does jumping and hacking and I'm in England and I see them all the time so not exactly sure why you're saying only the crap cobs are ridden here unless I've got the wrong end of the stick. The reason why those GVs are so expensive is because there is a market that will pay that much for them so if you're moaning because of prices then it's because people in your country have spent that much. It's like certain breeds over here you haven't got a chance of getting cheaply with out paying an arm and a leg for. Mind you I could get a fantastic GV type stallion for just under £6000 and he's a proven stud and show horse.


No... I'm not saying the crappy ones are the only ones who are ridden there and I'm not saying you guys only have crappy cobs. I'm talking about the cart horses. Everybody says that the ones we pay ridiculous amounts of money for are the same as the low-end ones you guys use as cart horses. They aren't the same at all, and while that doesn't make the outrageous price appropriate, it does make it better.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Have you seen them recently? Very few people drive such a badly put together cob, we can get them cheaply but we still want the decent ones. The gypsies have the best ones, why I love pics of Appleby Fair but there are bad conformed horses but they are very cheap because they're horrible to look at. Cobs in England and Ireland are usually very well bred but they can look bad when they're younger, I can show you pics of some very ugly youngsters with fantastic breeding but they take longer to mature and can end up looking good. The current main Studs around are fantastic, mostly ride and drive, even seen one of them being used for plowing.


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## bubblegum (Oct 6, 2009)

i dont think i have ever seen any horse being driven around the streets of ireland, what era do you think we are in over here, we have automobiles and electricity now. 
i am just saying that gypsy vanners or gypsy cobs over here that are of good quality are not too hard to find, and there are more than one breed of horse that far exceeds normal prices in the horse market that are completly untrained, yes they may have superb breeding but it is down to the training, conformation and attitude of both the horse and trainer to get a great horse.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Um..... Yeah.

I was just there last August and I saw them everywhere. That's where I took that picture. My boyfriend lives there. I know what era it is, thanks.


Anyway, for the millionth time, I'm NOT saying you guys have bad horses. Stop getting offended.

People are saying that the GVs we pay a ton of money for are the same as the horses *you guys* consider dirt. They aren't the same, and I'm sure you guys have high-quality colored cobs over there that people pay a decent amount of money for.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

But GVs are basically coloured cobs, it's what they're bred from which is why people are getting offended that you think we consider them dirt. We don't, there is a huge coloured cob industry in Britain and people consider GVs as coloured cobs. When I first saw someone talking about them I thought they were mad as all I can see is a well bred coloured cob.


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## bubblegum (Oct 6, 2009)

i for one do not want to get into an arguement, but i have lived in ireland my whole life and the only horse i have ever seen being driven on the roads is either a trotter or a carriage horse for a funeral. dont know where in ireland you were but they are not common place where i am from. i would not consider any coloured cobs dirt!!!! i would never say that about any horse. 

i think what people on my side of the pond are trying to say is that coloured cobs come in all different shapes and forms and there are the super bred ones to show and dressage and then there are the riding cobs, also well bred and and put together.

i think there is a stereotype of coloured cobs over here that sometimes gets rather confusing. over here some of the higher class people or snobs refer to the coloured cobs as trash simply because they are associated with the travelling community, i know of one person that bought one and when it arrived it looked too much like a travellers horse that she never once went near it, think its still sitting in the field. 

i know you are not trying to annoy us but when you say "you guys" and say that we consider all coloured cobs dirt it does offend us. and once again i have never seen one driven on any road around me in my life


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

I am not getting offended as I try not to on the internet these days and was just trying to get my point across that I have never seen a horse in a carriage over here look like that picture you posted in the OP. I live in an area that has a wide carriage driving community that most of the horses that are driven are cobs and they are round the roads regularly and I know that they might not be the best bred horses in the world but they are well bred forms of their breed and look almost exactly like the second picture you posted about the GVs who are the same breed don't know why anyone is saying that horses like that over here are coloured cobs and over there are GVs but anyway whole point is I am not at all offended by anything you have posted so far in anyway shape or form.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I took that in Killarney, near the national park. There were cart horses everywhere. We were sitting in a park for about an hour and there was a constant stream of them trotting past us.

I think that you think I'm trying to say that GVs are nicer than colored cobs. I should have just used the same name for both, because that's not what I'm trying to say at all. After all... they're the same thing.

So again, I don't think it's right for people to say that Americans are paying a ridiculous amount of money for a horse that is considered dirt in Ireland and the UK.

If you guys don't consider them dirt, that makes the statement even less valid.

But it's a moot point. I didn't mean to offend anybody.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Its ok I have not been offended but I do not think any horse should be called dirt no matter how unliked they they are


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

I've never seen a cob like the 1st picture pulling a cart!
They're normally like the 2nd one, nicely turned and stunning looking horses!


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Um..... Yeah.
> 
> I was just there last August and I saw them everywhere. That's where I took that picture. My boyfriend lives there. I know what era it is, thanks.
> 
> ...


Sorry but are you sure it was Ireland? The only time I've ever seen carts pulled in Ireland were by Freisins or Trotters. Ive never seen a gypsy horse pull a cart.

Don't be prejudiced! We don't all think any kind of horse is 'dirt.'


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

go into limerick you will see plenty of them pulling carts,but the thing that puzzles me is who started this vanner name off i,ve been around them all my life both in england and ireland and this vanner thing seems to have crept in,theres no suc breed


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

jimmy said:


> go into limerick you will see plenty of them pulling carts,but the thing that puzzles me is who started this vanner name off i,ve been around them all my life both in england and ireland and this vanner thing seems to have crept in,theres no suc breed


Now I can enplane this correctly but yes there is such a breed. Like I said earlier in this thread the lady who owns Headliner is a person here locally and I know. Having talked to her about the GV this is what I got from her. GV is a breed however it is not an old breed. It is similar to how the QH started out. Up until now it was more of an open book and there is no real pedigree as the Gypsies did not track them. However now to be considered a GV they MUST have DNA in file.

There is more to it but that is the just I got when talking to her about it. So if you import one to the US for them to be considered GV for the registrie over here they must have been DNAed before or their parents much be. I know I am leaving some things out. As it was at a show we where discussing it and time was limited and I was being pulled is a few different directions at the time.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

nrhareiner said:


> I can drive about 10 min and find an entire barn full of them. Around here there are several very good breeders of GV. With proven stock. Good ones just like any breed or discipline are out there and you will pay for the good ones.


What I meant is they don't have good conformation for riding. If a small draft or carriage horse is what you want, then sure...


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> I completely agree that Gypsy Vanners are WAY overpriced. (20 grand for a horse that isn't trained in any discipline? Just because it's pretty? Seriously?!)
> 
> But you anti-Gypsy Vanner people make it sound like the expensive American ones are the exact same as the dirt-cheap cart horses in Europe. They're not the same at all.
> 
> ...


I have actually met The Headliner, Cobalt, Slainte, and many others. I have 2 of The Headliners trophy cups his owner gave me at a show. He was imported.

I do agree GV's are overpriced, but _untrained _GV's are not going for 20K as some have posted. _IF _some are (that have escaped my attention) it must only be due to their breeding.

Yes they are a novelty here in the USA. Each year there are more and more therefore driving the prices down, as it should.

The stallions I mentioned above are impeccably trained. On more than one occasion I've witness them standing aside one another as their owners visited never acknowledging one another. How often do you see that?

Yes, I'm a GV fan. From what I've seen of this breed I would love to own one. A very willing, layed back breed.

I keep hearing money regarding GV's. I know someone that just gave 55K, for an Arab Gelding. It's not just the Gypsy world folks :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> What I meant is they don't have good conformation for riding. If a small draft or carriage horse is what you want, then sure...


They some one needs to tell them as she not only rides her GV but also dose HUS and H/J with them and dose quite well even at OHJA


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

qtrhrsecrazy said:


> I have actually met The Headliner, Cobalt, Slainte, and many others. I have 2 of The Headliners trophy cups his owner gave me at a show. He was imported.
> 
> I do agree GV's are overpriced, but _untrained _GV's are not going for 20K as some have posted. _IF _some are (that have escaped my attention) it must only be due to their breeding.
> 
> ...


Then you know Pamela. Very nice lady. I really like the stud she has been showing this year. 

As to the price. I personally do not think that is high at all for a nice well bred horse. Any time you have good horses with good breeding you get good prices. I know I get more then that for my weanlings/yearling prospects.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> So again, I don't think it's right for people to say that Americans are paying a ridiculous amount of money for a horse that is considered dirt in Ireland and the UK.


They aren't considered dirt over here, in fact people are paying stupid prices for them - I saw an advert for one a while ago that was £25,000 - he was a **** good looking horse, but he was an unbroken 3 year old. I have no doubt someone will have paid that much for him.

The riding school I go to has had several coloureds that they got from the Travellers, they are always very good ponies and horses.

There is a family of Travellers who live near me, and they drive a horse and cart, but they never have a coloured cob pulling it, I'm fairly sure they only have one coloured horse and that's a foal and isn't a cob - well his dam is a breedy looking bay ...


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

The GV's that are in America are descended from Gypsy horses - So yes, they are the same horses. Gypsy bred coloured cobs or GV's ARE the same type/breeding as the ones in the US - And yep, the only difference is that the ones in America go for about 5x more money.

You know why? They are rare! There aren't many of them, so people pay a lot to have one. It's the same as QH prices in Ireland as someone else mentioned... They are expensive because they are rare. 

But the point still stands - the GV's in the US ARE the same type/breeding horses that are used by Gypises/travellers in Ireland/England etc. They WERE considered 'dirt' - Nut only because the Gypsy people as a whole were considered 'dirt'. Nobody wanted a horse that was bred/owned by a gypsy.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Guys... please stop arguing about whether or not GVs or CCs are considered dirt over there. That's not the point.

I never even said that they were considered dirt. I said that OTHER people say that, and I'm saying they're wrong for another reason (saying the nice ones are the same as the not-so-nice ones). I'm not trying to discuss whether they are considered dirt over there or not. It's a moot point.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

People are drastically misinterpreting the point here, Clouds never said that CCs are dirt, in fact, this whole thread has nothing to do with what SHE SAID. It has to do with what she has heard and observed pertaining to over priced GVs here in the USA and, most importantly, that people say CCs and GVs are the same when they are not.

Please stop saying she's prejudice, read from the beginning of the thread to the very end before you post.


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

Just because a horse is well bred, doesn't automatically make it a nice horse. I've seen plenty of well bred horses who were conformational train wrecks.

P.S to Clouds Mystique, Headliner was born and bred in the U.K.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

masatisan said:


> Just because a horse is well bred, doesn't automatically make it a nice horse. I've seen plenty of well bred horses who were conformational train wrecks.
> 
> .


I would agree, but people who are interested ONLY in bloodlines don't seem to care about that.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> The GV's that are in America are descended from Gypsy horses - So yes, they are the same horses. Gypsy bred coloured cobs or GV's ARE the same type/breeding as the ones in the US - And yep, the only difference is that the ones in America go for about 5x more money.


Clouds, could you please comment on what I wrote above? Why you think they are different horses?


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Then you know Pamela. Very nice lady. I really like the stud she has been showing this year.
> 
> As to the price. I personally do not think that is high at all for a nice well bred horse. Any time you have good horses with good breeding you get good prices. I know I get more then that for my weanlings/yearling prospects.


Yes I have met her on a couple of occasions at the OKC shows and yes, a very nice person.

Who is she showing now? I didn't make the 08 or 09 shows


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Mr Bikers Conner N'Co She has been doing H/J with him this year. He has really come a long way since the first show.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

dashygirl said:


> People are drastically misinterpreting the point here, Clouds never said that CCs are dirt, in fact, this whole thread has nothing to do with what SHE SAID. It has to do with what she has heard and observed pertaining to over priced GVs here in the USA and, most importantly, that people say CCs and GVs are the same when they are not.
> 
> Please stop saying she's prejudice, read from the beginning of the thread to the very end before you post.


Thank you!




wild_spot said:


> Clouds, could you please comment on what I wrote above? Why you think they are different horses?


Where did I say they were different horses? I'm saying the well-bred ones and the poorly-bred ones are different. That's it. The only reason I used different names to describe them (GV and CC) is to differentiate between the American ones and the European ones.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I thought the whole point of the thread was you saying that the horses that bring big bucks over there are NOT the same as the cart horses over in England and Ireland?


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I thought the whole point of the thread was you saying that the horses that bring big bucks over there are NOT the same as the cart horses over in England and Ireland?


Yes, but by "not the same" I mean not the same quality, not a different breed.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

See I disagree - Most of the gypsy horses are from the same bloodlines - Therefore the same type. That's what I was saying above - I wasn't saying they are or aren't a different breed - I was saying that they are the same type.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Regardless of type or breed or color, a well bred and well conformed horse will always be worth more that a fugly half-starved cull. I personally would never spend $20,000 on any horse, regardless of bloodlines or training even if I did have the money to blow. I probably wouldn't spend more than $5000 on a horse because I like to buy mine untrained, I don't trust anybody else :?. And even that would be top price I would fork out for a well bred, untrained colt.

I know that people pay out the wazoo for horses everywhere but it seems that we americans tend to put more stock on the flashy shine and blingy hair the same way we do with celebrities. "They're pretty so they must be worth a fortune" is pretty much the mantra, regardless of whether they are useful or talented or neither.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Now I can enplane this correctly but yes there is such a breed. Like I said earlier in this thread the lady who owns Headliner is a person here locally and I know. Having talked to her about the GV this is what I got from her. GV is a breed however it is not an old breed. It is similar to how the QH started out. Up until now it was more of an open book and there is no real pedigree as the Gypsies did not track them. However now to be considered a GV they MUST have DNA in file.
> 
> There is more to it but that is the just I got when talking to her about it. So if you import one to the US for them to be considered GV for the registrie over here they must have been DNAed before or their parents much be. I know I am leaving some things out. As it was at a show we where discussing it and time was limited and I was being pulled is a few different directions at the time.


ok thanks for that


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

¬¬ GV's are coloured cobs.
Nothing less and certainly nothing more.
It's rare people are seen on a crappy looking cob like the one you posted, conformation means nothing to the British kids (I'm not British, it's actually important where I come from) who are the most likely people you'd see plodding around on one either at a show or in a riding school.
They aren't special here, hell look at the Amersham case horses, they turned out like the GV's you get in the USA, after grooming and the **** breaking work the RSPCA and The Blue Cross did they looked liek the kinda thing someone would pay $20,000 for.

Whatever stupid price it is, it's a Coloured Cob.
Whatever it's done it's the same thing.
Just in a different country.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

My, you guys over here on Horse Breeds get pretty fired up. Maybe this will help in the discussion

Extracted from “Horse and Pony Breeds” by E Hartley Edwards printed 1980
COB Page 77 Breed Description
Up to 15h 3
Colour any *******note******
Head small of good quality with no suggestion of coarseness
Neck strong arched and elegant
Shoulders, well sloped and strong
Body short strong back with great depth through girth
Hindquarters generous and rounded with tail carried high and gaily
Limbs short sturdy with good bone
Action: ideally the cob will have a good action with no tendency to high jarring paces which might result from his stocky conformation , in spite of his stuffieness he should be able to gallop and is certainly no sluggard
Temperament: Calm, sensible, kind and willing

Quote:
The Cob is a type of horse not a breed and indeed it is no possible to stipulate any reliable breeding programme for the production of cobs since they are so often arrived at quite by chance. The good cob is a steady unflappable ride willing to take care of the elderly unathletic or perhaps infirm rider. In fact he is possessed of the sort of manners associated with the perfect Hack but because of his sturdy build he can carry the more portly rider. At the same time he is small enough for the latter to mount and dismount without difficulty. Before the automobile he was used as a ride and drive horse.
Also he was used to take the “not so young rider” hunting. The cob should be active and willing but not a “hot” ride. Before the practice became illegal he was docked and his mane hogged to give a jaunty look.
There is no guaranteed method of producing a good cob but one method which is likely to do so is the crossing of an Irish Draught with a part bred Thoroughbred or full Thoroughbred stallion
Unquote

GV
The Gypsy Vanner Horse Society of the USA was established in 1996 - it is a relatively new breed society. Of course it would be criminal to cut/clip/shave the long silky hair of a traditional Gypsy Vanner.


Folks,
All I know is, that when I went out 18 months ago to find a “jaunty looking” horse with a temperament similar to that described above ie calm, sensible, kind and willing , I could not find one for sale in the UK at the time - with or without coloured markings. As it was I paid $9000 for a pretty but flighty Irish Draught mare with a delightful temperament but who has proved to be a very skittish ride. She is a lovely horse, but I would have paid more for her to have the temperament described above.

If my name was a horse loving Sean Connery, if I looked as good as he still does now and I lived in Sunny Spain like he does and I saw a flashy coloured horse with a temperament to die for, then I would pay any price to own it.

What else would I want to spend my money on?

BG


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> See I disagree - Most of the gypsy horses are from the same bloodlines - Therefore the same type. That's what I was saying above - I wasn't saying they are or aren't a different breed - I was saying that they are the same type.


Okay, you've confused me now. What do you mean by "type"?






You guys are seriously over complicating this. I repeated a statement that I hear other people say quite frequently, and I explained why I thought one aspect of it was wrong (the part where Americans pay $20,000 for a horse that's worth $500 in Ireland and the UK). You guys are picking apart the other aspects of the statement (whether or not GVs and CCs are the same breed, whether or not all CCs in Ireland and the UK are worth that little, whether or not CCs are driven on the streets, etc). That's not the point!


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> the part where Americans pay $20,000 for a horse that's worth $500 in Ireland and the UK


and I'll repeat myself, they are not sold for peanuts in the UK or over here, they are sold for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> and I'll repeat myself, they are not sold for peanuts in the UK or over here, they are sold for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.


And I'll repeat myself. SOME of them are sold for tens of thousands of dollars. SOME of them are sold for $500. These people are saying that the ones sold in America for tens of thousands of dollars are worth as much as the ones sold in Ireland and the UK for $500.

Again, I am NOT saying that ALL CCs in Ireland and the UK are sold for a couple hundred dollars.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Okay, you've confused me now. What do you mean by "type"?


Same type/same breed/same bloodlines/same (generally) conformation and temperament.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Same type/same breed/same bloodlines/same (generally) conformation and temperament.



So you think every single GV/CC has the same conformation, the same temperament, and is of the same quality?


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> And I'll repeat myself. SOME of them are sold for tens of thousands of dollars. SOME of them are sold for $500. These people are saying that the ones sold in America for tens of thousands of dollars are worth as much as the ones sold in Ireland and the UK for $500.
> 
> Again, I am NOT saying that ALL CCs in Ireland and the UK are sold for a couple hundred dollars.


 
Thats like saying some thoroughbreds are being sold for over 100,000 euro while some are being sold for 100 euro.
They could well be worth cheap! Ever think you Americans might be getting ripped off if Irish can supposedly get them for so cheap?

Just a question but have you been to Ireland or the UK before?


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

i don,t think anyone would say that mystique,but not all big money cobs started off big money there is a red and white cob with his own website in holland a man in co mayo bred him and he is sold for a fortune but i saw him as a 2 yr old hauling turf pulling a 4 wheeler and the 1st heavy red +white cob that ever entered australia was bred by a friend of mine here in yorkshire and e was regular rode by kids from when he was 6mths old around the streets


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

Its just economics. There are less of them around in the states, so people can charge more here.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> Thats like saying some thoroughbreds are being sold for over 100,000 euro while some are being sold for 100 euro.
> They could well be worth cheap! Ever think you Americans might be getting ripped off if Irish can supposedly get them for so cheap?
> 
> Just a question but have you been to Ireland or the UK before?



But they're not the same quality! Ireland and the UK pay good money for good horses and so does the US. The only difference is we don't have any low-quality CCs because nobody wants to pay 5 grand to ship a horse to America when it's only worth a grand. So we only import the high-quality, expensive ones. THAT is why you guys have cheap cobs and we don't.

And yes, I've been to both.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> But they're not the same quality! Ireland and the UK pay good money for good horses and so does the US. The only difference is we don't have any low-quality CCs because nobody wants to pay 5 grand to ship a horse to America when it's only worth a grand. So we only import the high-quality, expensive ones. THAT is why you guys have cheap cobs and we don't.
> 
> And yes, I've been to both.


So your saying Ireland have low quality horses and America doesnt?

So whats your point?

Were in Ireland have you been? I'm curious coz i havent seen any cobs pulling carts


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> But they're not the same quality! Ireland and the UK pay good money for good horses and so does the US. The only difference is we don't have any low-quality CCs because nobody wants to pay 5 grand to ship a horse to America when it's only worth a grand. So we only import the high-quality, expensive ones. THAT is why you guys have cheap cobs and we don't.
> 
> And yes, I've been to both.


To say that the US has no low quality GV or CC is not correct. I know having talked to a few GV breeders around me there are some poor quality ones around. However most of the GV breeders I know do not stand their stallions to out side mares and if you want one you will have to buy from them and pay good money for it. This helps keep the quality up but there are still some poor quality ones out there from breeders who are not being as picky or are just not getting good ones to begin with.

As to the cost of horses. It comes down to several factors. The number in a given area, the quality and breeding and if there is a market for that horse.

Just like in QH. You can go out and buy a QH for $100 registered. However there is a big differance between that QH and the ones selling for $100K+.

You will find good and bad in every breed and every area and country. So you can not say that just b/c it is one type or breed of horse in a given area that people are over paying. As they might not be.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> So your saying Ireland have low quality horses and America doesnt?
> 
> So whats your point?
> 
> Were in Ireland have you been? I'm curious coz i havent seen any cobs pulling carts


Ugh, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Ireland has low-quality colored cobs and America doesn't, because nobody wants to pay the huge import fees for a horse that isn't worth that much overall.

I'm sure it's the same with QHs. I'm sure you won't find any low-quality QHs in Ireland, because what Irish person would want to pay 5 grand to import a horse that's only worth a few hundred dollars? Whereas America is overflowing with low-quality QHs.

I've been to Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Kildare, Kilkenny, Clare, and I've driven through a few other counties. I'm pretty sure the picture I took of the CC was in Killarney.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> You will find good and bad in every breed and every area and country. So you can not say that just b/c it is one type or breed of horse in a given area that people are over paying. As they might not be.


That's exactly what I'm trying to say...


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok. Im going to say this again. Its just economics. People in general arent overpaying, maybe a few people but not the whole market. The horse market prices are set by buyers not sellers, as there are soo many horses out there. If the prices were set to high peoples wallets will do the talking (more like walking away), and prices would go down. Markets are usually always at an equilibrium unless their are goverment floors or ceilings. The market is self correcting.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Ugh, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Ireland has low-quality colored cobs and America doesn't, because nobody wants to pay the huge import fees for a horse that isn't worth that much overall.
> 
> I'm sure it's the same with QHs. I'm sure you won't find any low-quality QHs in Ireland, because what Irish person would want to pay 5 grand to import a horse that's only worth a few hundred dollars? Whereas America is overflowing with low-quality QHs.
> 
> I've been to Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Kildare, Kilkenny, Clare, and I've driven through a few other counties. I'm pretty sure the picture I took of the CC was in Killarney.


But America do have bad quality breeds just like every other country!

We do have QH. Theyre not popular but there there.

Rightttt.... Somehow I dont believe you'd find a horse pulling a cart in Dublin or Cork for deffo anyway


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> But America do have bad quality breeds just like every other country!
> 
> We do have QH. Theyre not popular but there there.
> 
> Rightttt.... Somehow I dont believe you'd find a horse pulling a cart in Dublin or Cork for deffo anyway


not to be smart about it,but you will


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> But America do have bad quality breeds just like every other country!
> 
> We do have QH. Theyre not popular but there there.
> 
> Rightttt.... Somehow I dont believe you'd find a horse pulling a cart in Dublin or Cork for deffo anyway


What? Read again. I just said we're overflowing with low-quality Quarter Horses. We just don't have low-quality cobs, because nobody wants to pay five grand to import them unless they're worth a good deal of money!


As for the cart horses...

Aran Islands: http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu...eland-horse-cart-on-inis-mor-aran-islands.jpg
Dublin: http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/uny/uny170/horse-cart_~u12929566.jpg
Killarney: http://www.mnstate.edu/kienholz/Swiss_Ire/ireland4.jpg
Belfast: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/tm/dest_guide/NorthernIreland/cart_428x269_to_468x312.jpg
Dublin: http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1812/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1812-5769.jpg
Dublin: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rcz-id6NW...s/gv1GWfH9rfg/s320/horse+cart+on+moore+st.JPG

Okay? Just because they aren't where you live doesn't mean they don't exist anywhere in Ireland...


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

Mum went to Cork and took a picture of a nice CC with a food bag on it's head.
And guess what, it was hitched up to a cart.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

I thought qh were in demand over there, maybe just more expensive because there are less.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I think what's getting people confused is it sounds like you're saying it and that's what's upsetting people. I've read through again and realised I was on the wrong end of the stick but that's how it comes across.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Also the fact it sounded like you were saying all the CCs in Britain and Ireland were crap as opposed to the American ones.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> What? Read again. I just said we're overflowing with low-quality Quarter Horses. We just don't have low-quality cobs, because nobody wants to pay five grand to import them unless they're worth a good deal of money!
> 
> 
> As for the cart horses...
> ...


 yes mystique i understand what your saying,abou buying onl quality,that makes sense,but when your breeding in america you have to get bad as well as the good and when you have a bad foal out of a big money mare you wil breed from it not you personally


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## Aoi Miku (Sep 27, 2009)

Well basically.
I doubt any American with half a brain would pay $20,000 for a crap GV.
Same as I doubt any Brit would pay £70,000 for a crap QH.

I think Cloud what your trying to say is.
Your sick of people thinking Americans are stupid for paying out of the rare for what we consider common. Yet, what we consider common is basically a bog standard CC, not a full blown Vanner which is what people pay for. As alike as they are I can see a difference in some ways.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Lis said:


> I think what's getting people confused is it sounds like you're saying it and that's what's upsetting people. I've read through again and realised I was on the wrong end of the stick but that's how it comes across.
> 
> Also the fact it sounded like you were saying all the CCs in Britain and Ireland were crap as opposed to the American ones.



Yeah, I know. But that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you guys have high-quality AND low-quality cobs, whereas we only have high-quality ones because nobody wants to pay the fees to import the low-quality ones.




jimmy said:


> yes mystique i understand what your saying,abou buying onl quality,that makes sense,but when your breeding in america you have to get bad as well as the good and when you have a bad foal out of a big money mare you wil breed from it not you personally


Yes, and if we continue to breed them in the US, eventually we will have low-quality GVs too. But it's still a new breed, so we don't have many at this point... at least not that I've seen.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> I thought qh were in demand over there, maybe just more expensive because there are less.


Exactly, sillybunny.

It's an 'exotic' breed, so costs more.

If the Europeans start breeding QHs, the cost will go down. Right now they're novelties, so of course cost a boatload to buy and import.

Calling these particular horses GVs or CCs makes little difference, as far as I'm concerned. They share common and very RECENT ancestors, so are essentially the same horses. 

I think they're adorable, but you won't find me paying serious coinage just for hair, which is essentially what a GV's claim to fame is all about.

Like Friesians, there are relatively few of them in the U.S, and like any 'horse du jour' they're expensive and sought after. Once there's a glut of them on the U.S. market, their prices will drop to more reasonable levels.

I've seen it before. In my youth it was the Arabians who were the fad of the moment. Back in the 1970s-early 1980s it wasn't uncommon to see Arabians going for over $500,000.00 each. 

Nowadays, they'd better have some serious showing and winning under their belts to command even a $10,000.00 price tag.

The GV market will crash and burn just like the Arabian market did, once the supply exceeds the demand. It's a given, and just common economics.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Aoi Miku said:


> Well basically.
> I doubt any American with half a brain would pay $20,000 for a crap GV.
> Same as I doubt any Brit would pay £70,000 for a crap QH.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And although you consider "bog standard CCs" common, that DOESN'T mean that that's all you have. It's just that the high-quality ones aren't as common (as it is with every breed in every country).


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Exactly, sillybunny.
> 
> It's an 'exotic' breed, so costs more.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I totally agree with you.

By the way, I was only calling them GVs or CCs to differentiate between when I was talking about one from Europe and one from America. I don't think they're any different.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

High quality ones aren't common? This is why people are getting upset because they're very common but yes we also have bads one although the high quality ones are in the majority because that's what people want.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Lis said:


> High quality ones aren't common? This is why people are getting upset because they're very common but yes we also have bads one although the high quality ones are in the majority because that's what people want.


Well that's not how it is here with our common breeds...


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Again, I am NOT saying that ALL CCs in Ireland and the UK are sold for a couple hundred dollars.



Well you've lost me totally, I don't understand what point you're trying to make at all










Unless you're trying to say that I could buy a cob here for €200 then sell it to an American for $20,000 ... ?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> But you anti-Gypsy Vanner people make it sound like the expensive American ones are the exact same as the dirt-cheap cart horses in Europe. They're not the same at all.





CloudsMystique said:


> I think that you think I'm trying to say that GVs are nicer than colored cobs. I should have just used the same name for both, because that's not what I'm trying to say at all. After all... they're the same thing.


I am confused.

In your original post you said they are not the same thing and once confronted by several people you are now saying they are the same thing?


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> Well you've lost me totally, I don't understand what point you're trying to make at all
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No... Where did you get that idea from? I'm saying that you guys have high-quality CCs AND low-quality ones, because apparently I offended people by making it sound like I was saying you only have low-quality ones.







Alwaysbehind said:


> I am confused.
> 
> In your original post you said they are not the same thing and once confronted by several people you are now saying they are the same thing?


Okay, for the millionth time...

In my first post, I was saying that the $20,000 GVs we have for sale are not the same QUALITY as the $500 cart horses in Ireland and the UK. They're the same quality as the $20,000 ones they have for sale in Ireland and the UK.

I'm not saying that every single CC in Ireland and the UK is a $500 cart horse. THAT is what I was trying to clear up with my second post.

When I said they weren't the same, I meant the same QUALITY. When I said they were the same, I meant the same BREED. The only reason I used GV and CC to describe them is to differentiate between the horses from the different countries, so I don't have to say "American GV" and "Irish GV" or "American CC" and "Irish CC." That's all.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Folks according to the official web site

QUote 
A Gypsy Vanner is said to be a creation of the Gypsy from the interbreeding of a Shire, a Friesian, a Clydesdale and a Dales. 

The GVH is a newly established breed/type created in the USA in 1996 and the standards are as follows:
*
Gypsy Vanner Horse®
Breed Standards for Stallions/Mares/Geldings​ 
#1 Color:* 
The Gypsy Vanner Horse® is not a color breed it is a body type, therefore all colors, markings and patterns are acceptable. In honor of the British Gypsy heritage of the breed, the following names will be used to describe a Gypsy Vanner horse's color.
A. Piebald: Black & White 
B. Skewbald: Red & White, Brown & White, Tri-Color 
C. Odd Coloured: Any other color
D. Blagdon: Solid color with white splashed up from underneath
* 
#2 Height: 
*There are three height classifications, all having the same standards. 
A. Mini Vanner: Under 14 hands. 
B. Classic Vanner 14 hands up to but not including 15.2 H. 
C. Grand Vanner 15.2 H and up. 
* 
#3 Body*:
The Vanner has the look of a small to average size horse with a draft horse type body.
A. Back: Short coupled and in proportion to overall body
B. Withers: Well rounded, not high and fine
C. Chest: A deep, broad chest with well sprung ribs. 
D. Shoulder: Sloping shoulder with well developed muscle
E. Hindquarters: Heavy, powerful hips with a well muscled rounded croup, tail not set too low. 
NB Slab sided or severely sloping hindquarters are considered a fault.
F. Neck: Strong and of ample length, stallions must display a bold look with a rainbow (well arched) crest.
* 
#4 Legs*: 
Clean, heavy to medium heavy bone set on medium to large hoof . 
A. Front: Set square, muscular with broad flat well developed knees.
B. Rear: Hocks that are broad and clean, a Vanner will have the modified closer hock set of a pulling horse, but not as close as the modern draft horse. 
NB Set back or sickle hocks are a fault. 
C. Hoof : large round hoof , open at the heels with well developed frogs. 
NB Small contracted hooves are considered a fault 
D. Leg movement: Clean, straight and true with energy and a distinctive and effortless trot. 
* 
#5 Hair*: 
Ideal hair is straight and silky, with some wave, curl and body being acceptable, 
_NB kinky hair is a fault_.
A. Abundant feathering should begin at the knees on the front legs and at or near the hocks on the rear, extending over the front of the hooves. 
B. Mane, forelock and tail should be ample to profusely abundant, double manes are common but not required. 
* 
#6 Head*: 
A sweet head is a more refined head than a typical shire might have, set on a strong neck in harmony with the horses overall look.
A. Throat and jaw: Clean throat-latch and jaw.
B. Nose: Flat and tapered, a slightly roman nose is acceptable if it goes with the horses overall look. 
NB A heavy roman nose is not acceptable. 
C. Eyes: Any color, wide set, bright, alert and kind. 
D. Ears: In proportion to the head, not too large. 
* 
#7 Nature*: 
A Vanner should be alert and willing with traits of intelligence, kindness and docility, 
(ie a Golden Retriever with hooves®). 
UNQUOTE

SO folks, it would seem that even if a horse meets fully with the basics of the American breed specification there are several areas which can make one horse more “special“ than another horse. 
Ie
The colour and shape of the markings
The texture and density of the mane, tail and feathers
The temperament 
& not least
The capability of the horse to pull a small wagon in a built up area. 

One can perhaps a breeder or a high level showman might be prepared to pay a significant premium for one special horse over another - particularly if that horse is a stallion or a mare..

B G


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Mini vanner. Heeheeheehee!

I thought those were soccer moms, not horses. :lol:


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## cobbywob (Nov 24, 2009)

Hi - well I live in Ireland - I have bought a 15.2 'coloured cob' that is now 5 years old - was originally bought from the gypsys at Ballinasloe and is a driving as well as ridden horse. My point is - I am no longer sure after reading this thread what horse I have - is it a Gypsy Vanner or a Coloured Cob??? do hope you experts in the US can tell me??


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Cobby, genetically they're the same. If you don't want to get laughed at by your countrymen, call it a CC. I don't think GVs 'exist' in Ireland. :wink:


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## cobbywob (Nov 24, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Cobby, genetically they're the same. If you don't want to get laughed at by your countrymen, call it a CC. I don't think GVs 'exist' in Ireland. :wink:


yes I think that is probably very sound advice:lol: had always thought of him that way myself - just fascinated to think he might be considered something more 'special' over the pond:lol:


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

cloudsmystique

what point are you trying to get across? Coz it seems like you're trying to get a few across and im totally confused about what you're on about.

Some posts i think you're just saying Ireland have crappy, cheap cobs and all that crap?
What are you truing to say? Keep it short and sweet


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> cloudsmystique
> 
> what point are you trying to get across? Coz it seems like you're trying to get a few across and im totally confused about what you're on about.
> 
> ...




Okay. I always hear people in America saying the Americans who pay a ton of money for these furry little horses are stupid because they're used as cart horses in Ireland and the UK and are worth next to nothing. I'm saying that's NOT true, because although you guys DO have furry little horses that pull carts and are worth next to nothing, they are not the same quality as the furry little horses Americans pay a ton of money for.

And I'm NOT saying that the furry little horses that pull carts and are worth next to nothing are the ONLY furry little horses you have. I'm sure you also have high-quality furry little horses that are worth as much as the furry little horses we have.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Cloud, there are indeed horses of the same calibre in Ireland as the U.S. ones, and many of them are of _better_ calibre.

The difference is that I doubt seriously anyone in Ireland is paying $20,000.00 in comparable Euros for one of these horses.

They're not considered 'exotic' nor are they imported, so their prices _aren't_ what the U.S. people are paying. They're getting the same or better quality for much lower prices.

But by the same token, they're paying a boatload for what we consider 'common' QHs. They're probably very nice horses, but I wouldn't pay what the Europeans are paying for a horse I can get domestically very reasonably.

You're talking apples and oranges. What someone's willing to pay for what they consider an exotic, imported breed is NOT the same thing as paying out the nose for a horse they can buy at auction for several hundred dollars.

The original GV breeders saw an opportunity and DID buy a bunch of relatively inexpensive CCs and brought them here to the U.S. Then they started a propaganda campaign to get people all fired up about the 'majickal' Gypsy horses.

Whether or not anyone buys into their propaganda is their business. I for one don't.

Soon enough there will be a GV glut on the U.S. market, and they'll be as common here are they are in Ireland. Then the prices will drop to more sane levels for what is essentially an adorable, fat, hairy cart horse/heavy hunter.


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## cobbywob (Nov 24, 2009)

*Then the prices will drop to more sane levels for what is essentially aN adorable, fat, hairy cart horse/heavy hunte*r.

You've met my Irish coloured cob then...:lol::lol: Common sense statement there I think!:wink:


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Cloud, there are indeed horses of the same calibre in Ireland as the U.S. ones, and many of them are of _better_ calibre.
> 
> The difference is that I doubt seriously anyone in Ireland is paying $20,000.00 in comparable Euros for one of these horses.
> 
> ...


I never said there weren't horses of the same caliber in Ireland. But this discussion isn't about them. This discussion is about comparing high-quality CCs in the US to low-quality CCs in Ireland.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here. You're basically saying the same thing I've been trying to say, and you're making sound like you're arguing with me.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nope, not arguing with you at all. Just trying to clarify for some of the other posters.

People _are_ paying exorbitant sums for what is essentially a cart horse. Regardless of the _quality_ of the horse, their genetics are basically the same.

I do find it amusing that people are paying upwards of $20,000 for a hairy little weanling because they bought into the hype of the 'majickal' GV, but it's their money, and I applaud the breeders for their marketing skills. This is America after all, where making money isn't considered a horrible sin. :wink:

I find it just as amusing to think that the Europeans are paying big bucks for QHs that I could buy for a reasonable amount. Nicely bred, well trained, conformationally correct horses to be sure, but nothing I can't find every day of the week.

The GV horses _here_ are essentially the same CC horses _there_. They just have better PR here! :lol:


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Nope, not arguing with you at all. Just trying to clarify for some of the other posters.


Oh, alright. Ignore my last statement then.



Speed Racer said:


> People _are_ paying exorbitant sums for what is essentially a cart horse. Regardless of the _quality_ of the horse, their genetics are basically the same.


So... you think all horses with similar genetics should be sold for the same price regardless of quality?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Lol, Speedracer, that's what I was saying as well


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nope Cloud, you missed my point.

What I'm saying is that the horses here are most likely of the _same_ quality as the horses being sold there, but for far larger prices.

The only people who buy fugly, conformationally questionable animals certainly don't have the money or interest to show them competitively. They're bought for what they were originally bred for; to pull carts and wagons.

The well bred, conformationally correct horses over there are going to the competitive/pleasure riding homes, the same as they are here.

So in essence, we have to compare like to like, not try to compare quality animals with illbred ones.

Anyone who is comparing a well bred Colored Cob/GV to the wretched little things that pull carts, have no idea what they're talking about.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> So... you think all horses with similar genetics should be sold for the same price regardless of quality?


Are you just trying to be offended and be difficult?

SR post does not say anything close to that.

At least that is not how I read it.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> So in essence, we have to compare like to like, not try to compare quality animals with illbred ones.
> 
> Anyone who is comparing a well bred Colored Cob/GV to the wretched little things that pull carts, have no idea what they're talking about.


That's exactly what I've been trying to say.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Are you just trying to be offended and be difficult?
> 
> SR post does not say anything close to that.
> 
> At least that is not how I read it.



How on earth would that offend me?

I was just confused by what she said.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I guess what I don't understand is why you think people are comparing the well bred animals to the illbred ones. 

If you take exception to the fact that people are calling them cart horses, I'm not sure why you do. They _are_ cart horses, regardless of how well bred they are. 

Friesians were originally bred to pull carriages. In fact, there's nothing more lovely than a pair or more of well bred Friesians hitched to a carriage. They make excellent Dressage horses, but their real talent shines when you see them hitched to a carriage. Absolutely breathtaking!

So why should it be considered an insult to call a GV/CC a cart horse? That's exactly what they are. The fact that they can be used for other things doesn't take away from the initial truth that they were bred to pull carts and wagons. 

I don't buy into the GV hype, but anyone who has the money and wants to indulge themselves with one certainly has my blessing. They're lovely horses, and from what I understand have amazing temperaments.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> But by the same token, they're paying a boatload for what we consider 'common' QHs. They're probably very nice horses, but I wouldn't pay what the Europeans are paying for a horse I can get domestically very reasonably.


No the people paying top dollar for QH are not buying the COMMON QH. Well some might be but the vast majority of them are not buying the common ones. They are buying some of our best horses. A large number remains here in the states to compete and show. Some at some point are shipped back to where their owners are. However they are far from Common.

I would hope that the GV or CC that are being importated into the US are the same not common but the best.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nrh, maybe I'm spoiled, but I don't buy 'common' anything, be it dogs or horses.

Oh, I bought a ferret once from a pet store, but the next one I buy will be from a breeder. :wink:

I like well bred animals, regardless of species. If it's not well bred, I'm not going to take it home. 

I _can_ find exceptionally bred QHs here in the U.S. for a heck of a lot less than a European will pay for one because QHs are a U.S. product, which makes them more accessible.

That's the point I was trying to make; not that the GVs/CCs here aren't well bred animals.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A lot of the buyers of reiners buy at the NRHA Futurity sales. So they are only paying what the market will bare. If they buy from a privet seller they are still only paying the asking price so again what the horse should be worth. Now I am sure there are some buyers who are just buying and importing them b/c they are QH. However from what I have seen of what they are buying of the reiners. They are picking up some of the best. So the prices they are paying is the price that we would be paying also.

I do agree with buying well bred animals. I like to show so even my dogs aer show dogs. Too much fun.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> They are picking up some of the best. So the prices they are paying is the price that we would be paying also.


The price that the person buying them is paying. That does not mean that the same horse is not being sold for quite a bit more over there.

Just like the GV/CC horses do when they get here and get all the GV hype applied to them.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Do you know how much it costs to ship an animal overseas? I don't, but it can't be cheap.

That's where a lot of the money goes I would imagine, even if they pay market value and buy it here.

Depending on their country's livestock import laws and quarantine regulations, as well as just the cost to ship the animal, they could be out an additional $2,500.00 to $10,000.00. 

So if I buy an animal that's bred here, I'm still getting a better deal than someone who has to pay to have it shipped outside the U.S.

Same goes for the GV/CCs. The breeders who bought them overseas still had to pay the shipping costs and import taxes to the U.S., so no matter what kind of deal they got on the animals, they were still fairly expensive.

Which still doesn't explain why they think charging $20,000.00 for a weanling is a good idea, but heck, if they can get it, more power to 'em!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There is a company who charges $3500 to ship a horse. Now that was a year or so ago so might be more now.


I can not say what some do but I know quite a few of the reiners who are bought by people from other countries are never shipped out of the country. Trash was at one time owned by some people from Germany and he never left the country. Same with Smart Spook and several others. Some do get shipped over seas. However it is getting to the point where it is not that hard. With all the international competition there are a lot of horses who have more frequent flier miles then most humans do.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> The price that the person buying them is paying. That does not mean that the same horse is not being sold for quite a bit more over there.
> 
> Just like the GV/CC horses do when they get here and get all the GV hype applied to them.



I am sure they do sell them for more then what they paid for them if they sell them. However is it a lot more then what it would have cost the buyer if they had come here picked out a horse and had it shipped?? Sometimes you are just paying for the convince off it all too.

I know if I was looking for a GV I would just go down the street and pay Pams price. She has some very very nice GV and I can see them work with them I know the sire as I have seen him many times. I will pay a bit more perhaps but I do not have the inconviance of having to import one. In the end I will get a very nice GV faster and probable not all that much more for equil quality that I could have imported.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Okay. I always hear people in America saying the Americans who pay a ton of money for these furry little horses are stupid because they're used as cart horses in Ireland and the UK and are worth next to nothing*.* I'm saying that's NOT true, because *although you guys DO have furry little horses that pull carts* and are worth next to nothing, they are not the same quality as the furry little horses Americans pay a ton of money for.
> 
> And I'm NOT saying that the furry little horses that pull carts and are worth next to nothing are the ONLY furry little horses you have. I'm sure you also have high-quality furry little horses that are worth as much as the furry little horses we have.



*bolding mine*

No, we DON'T use coloured cobs to pull carts, we drive cars, or use taxis or buses. Nor do we live in thatched cottages and keep pigs in the parlour :lol:

Travellers do keep coloured cobs and sell them to people, they do occasionally use them to pull traps either as transport, or to hold races between each other

The carts you showed pictures of earlier in the thread are there for the tourists, not the usual mode of transport for the people of Ireland.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dang Lobelia, I was _so_ convinced y'all were quaint and backwards! Now I may have to rethink my desire to visit Ireland if I can't snicker at how uncivilized y'all are! :wink:

Yep, I figured the carts were for the tourists. Just like the horse drawn carriages in NYC, New Orleans and Atlanta. Nobody who actually lives in those cities hires them.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

this is our "furry little cart horse" and he really is little.

thought id share even if no one else is


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

she is a pure bred gypsy cob

his name is templer


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

a vanner is an old english term that has been used commonly in england for many many years, but which is not now used as much , to describe a certain sort of horse that was used to pull delivery or shop vans such as bread vans, dairy carts, etc. they are sturdier than a ridden horse ussually is and more refined than a farm or cart horse. it was never an official breed it is a type. you americans coined the term gypsy vanner. so in actual fact you have put two type-names together , and came up with a name to call a sort of horse that you find desirable. i have called mine a gypsy vanner, on this site, so that you recognise the sort she is. she is actually a gypsy cob. mine is a gypsy bred black and white horse, marked like a shire. she has thrown 4 coloured foals. apart from her markings she is a typical gypsy cob, which is what we call them over here, the people i know anyway. americans tend to go for the flashier heavily feathered sort, so you are paying for the specific breeding that produces a certain type, and the extravegant feathering and hair. you are also paying for the transport, and the insurance.and of course for temperment. and you are paying because you created a market that competed against each other, and which any dealer worth his salt is going to take you up on.it only takes 2 buyers of the same horse to set the price. but there are many very nice gypsy cobs that you can buy for far less over here, a horse is only worth as much as the person buying wants to pay, and the person selling wants them to go for. but what i want to know is, how long will it be before nature takes over, and all of that fancy feathering and heavy mane, start to die out when they are living in hot climates such as arizona, texas etc. thats what i want to know!


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> I guess what I don't understand is why you think people are comparing the well bred animals to the illbred ones.
> 
> If you take exception to the fact that people are calling them cart horses, I'm not sure why you do. They _are_ cart horses, regardless of how well bred they are.
> 
> ...



Because they aren't JUST calling them cart horses. They're saying things like "cart horses that are dirt cheap and dirt common."





Lobelia Overhill said:


> *bolding mine*
> 
> No, we DON'T use coloured cobs to pull carts, we drive cars, or use taxis or buses. Nor do we live in thatched cottages and keep pigs in the parlour :lol:
> 
> ...


I never said they were your usual mode of transportation. We have the exact same carriage horses in NYC and several other cities. My boyfriend lives in Ireland so I know quite a bit more about it than the average American does. :wink:


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## ZiggyKlepto (Aug 23, 2009)

I've always felt out of place because everyone loves the Gypsy horses so much but everytime I see one, all I can think of it "Holy snap! How would you keep that thing clean?"

I don't know what they're worth or not worth... I'll let the market decide that. It's none of my business, really, you know? If you like them and are willing to pay, then go for it.

What I don't agree with in this thread is the assumption that all the horses being imported to the U.S. are the cream of the crop. I have seen a number of Gypsy Vanners/Cobs around, and while some are quite nice looking, others will have glaring confirmation flaws. Flaws that are passed on to the foals that are listed for sale at $13,000 or more in utero, and "more when they hit the ground". We have our fair share of uglies here in the U.S. too, and I do consider those ones to be ridiculously overpriced.


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, whatever they're called, I want one. I've got to wait for the novelty to wear off so I can actually obtain one lol


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

ZiggyKlepto said:


> What I don't agree with in this thread is the assumption that all the horses being imported to the U.S. are the cream of the crop. I have seen a number of Gypsy Vanners/Cobs around, and while some are quite nice looking, others will have glaring confirmation flaws. Flaws that are passed on to the foals that are listed for sale at $13,000 or more in utero, and "more when they hit the ground". We have our fair share of uglies here in the U.S. too, and I do consider those ones to be ridiculously overpriced.


MOST of the GV/CCs in the US ARE the cream of the crop - simply because nobody in their right mind would pay $5,000 to import a horse that isn't worth a whole lot more than that... Especially when they can buy one that was bred here and skip the import costs.

Sure, there are some GV/CCs that were bred in the US that are less than spectacular, but for now, while the breed is still new in the US, they will be the minority.

I'm not saying those flawed GV/CCs aren't overpriced... just that they aren't that common in the US at this point.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> MOST of the GV/CCs in the US ARE the cream of the crop - simply because nobody in their right mind would pay $5,000 to import a horse that isn't worth a whole lot more than that... Especially when they can buy one that was bred here and skip the import costs.
> 
> Sure, there are some GV/CCs that were bred in the US that are less than spectacular, but for now, while the breed is still new in the US, they will be the minority.
> 
> I'm not saying those flawed GV/CCs aren't overpriced... just that they aren't that common in the US at this point.


No there are some bad ones around. I have already pointed this out. They have been in the US long enough that there are quite a few who where bred here. Talking to a breeder if GV about some of the GV around and some are not put together very well and she has passed on some b/c of conformation flaws in which would not work for her program.


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## ZiggyKlepto (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. My experience tells me that in my part of the country, poorly bred Gypsys are starting to become the norm. 

Due to the rising populatiry of GV/CCs in the United States, there are a fair number of people who see them and think $$. They can't afford to pay 20k for one horse, bred in the U.S. or overseas, but they can afford to import a poorer quality stud from Europe. Even if it's 5k for importing, if you only py 1-2k for a horse, that's still cheaper. Buy a few low-end broodmares and your in business, trying to sell the babies to buyers who don't know any better. Like I said, I know of 4 Gypsy breeders in my general area that show off/advertise their horses every chance they get. One has very gorgeous horses anyone would be proud to own. One has very decent stock that I wouldn't mind owning, though I wouldn't pay the money for. The other two breeders have studs you couldn't pay me to take.

I don't know any of those breeders personally, but I do have a neighbor with an imported Fresian stud with such a mindset. He got the stud as a long yearling and immediately started breeding said stud to ugly little unregistered paint mares he got at a ranch auction thinking he'll have really tall colored Fresians that everyone'll want. And you know what? They're selling. People who can't afford pure blooded Fresians are buying them just to say they own a Fresian. It's different, of course, since we're talking about purebred GVs, but my point is that there is a similar mindset for some breeders. That's why I think the Gypsy's are starting to get a bad rap. You just have to be careful with which ones you get.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> No there are some bad ones around. I have already pointed this out. They have been in the US long enough that there are quite a few who where bred here. Talking to a breeder if GV about some of the GV around and some are not put together very well and she has passed on some b/c of conformation flaws in which would not work for her program.


I said there are bad ones - just that they aren't very common.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Not very common ha??

Look at this breeder. A few are selling b/c they are cheap in comparison. Could not give me one of these GV.

Search Results List - DreamHorse.com - Dream Horse Classifieds

In comparison. Well bred well conformed GV. Look at the differance in prices.

Search Results List - DreamHorse.com - Dream Horse Classifieds


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Not very common ha??
> 
> Look at this breeder. A few are selling b/c they are cheap in comparison. Could not give me one of these GV.
> 
> ...



That doesn't prove that the poor-quality ones are in the majority....


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

ZiggyKlepto said:


> I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. My experience tells me that in my part of the country, poorly bred Gypsys are starting to become the norm.
> 
> Due to the rising populatiry of GV/CCs in the United States, there are a fair number of people who see them and think $$. They can't afford to pay 20k for one horse, bred in the U.S. or overseas, but they can afford to import a poorer quality stud from Europe. Even if it's 5k for importing, if you only py 1-2k for a horse, that's still cheaper. Buy a few low-end broodmares and your in business, trying to sell the babies to buyers who don't know any better. Like I said, I know of 4 Gypsy breeders in my general area that show off/advertise their horses every chance they get. One has very gorgeous horses anyone would be proud to own. One has very decent stock that I wouldn't mind owning, though I wouldn't pay the money for. The other two breeders have studs you couldn't pay me to take.
> 
> I don't know any of those breeders personally, but I do have a neighbor with an imported Fresian stud with such a mindset. He got the stud as a long yearling and immediately started breeding said stud to ugly little unregistered paint mares he got at a ranch auction thinking he'll have really tall colored Fresians that everyone'll want. And you know what? They're selling. People who can't afford pure blooded Fresians are buying them just to say they own a Fresian. It's different, of course, since we're talking about purebred GVs, but my point is that there is a similar mindset for some breeders. That's why I think the Gypsy's are starting to get a bad rap. You just have to be careful with which ones you get.


But why would somebody pay $5,000 to import a $1,000-$2,000 stud when they could buy a $6,000-$7,000 stud already in the US, and without all of the hassle of importing?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> That doesn't prove that the poor-quality ones are in the majority....



On Dreamhorse that are 108 GV listed. From just skimming I would say that a good 30%+ are crap. While that is not the majority that is still a large number. It will only get worse. Look at the stud on of the first link I posted. They are standing that stud to the public. I know GV breeders who would be calling that a gelding.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> On Dreamhorse that are 108 GV listed. From just skimming I would say that a good 30%+ are crap. While that is not the majority that is still a large number. It will only get worse. Look at the stud on of the first link I posted. They are standing that stud to the public. I know GV breeders who would be calling that a gelding.


I never said the poor-quality GVs didn't exist in the US. I just said that they weren't in the majority.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Well from just that list on DH there are more then I would like to see from a breed with a limited pool of GV here in the US. If that is a representative sample of what a lot of GV breeders are producing here in the US it is not what I would want to see.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

but if you guys are breeding bad quality that is down to the breeders and not the breed of horse. it is selection. as a type of horse the gypsy cob has evolved through breeding,AND its situation or lifestyle. when you then breed from a smaller genepool you are magnifying all of the inherant weaknesses or faults, and when it is living in a different environment the body loses those attributes that are no longer necasary, such as the excess feathering. so when you are talking about professional breeders, the breedis only going to be as good as the specific breeders skill.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Dang Lobelia, I was _so_ convinced y'all were quaint and backwards! Now I may have to rethink my desire to visit Ireland if I can't snicker at how uncivilized y'all are! :wink:


I declare to god, things haven't been the same since we're after getting the electricity!

:lol:

<off topic>Actually one night I was online and an American expressed his shock at me living in Ireland - he was convinced I was talking about a town called Ireland somewhere near Boston or something - because the internet doesn't go outside of America

I laughed so hard I couldn't answer him</off topic>


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## Flanagan (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm shocked to see the prices here!! :O
Here are my 2 Irish cobs (I believe the Irish cob, as a breed, is exactly the same as the gypsy vanner, they all came from the same place)
Irish cob/vanner foals with papers go here for about 1500-2000 euro's
This is Flanagan, bought him as a 12 year old, well schooled and behaved, ridden and driven. payed 4000 Euro's for him.










And then here is Kayla, a lovely mare, no breeding unfortunatly (but most Irish cobs over 10 don't have pedigree's) she's 10 years old and in foal (bought her like that) to a beautifull registered Irish cob, she is ridden and bombproof, but hasn't done much in her life. Bought her for 1850 euro's


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

love that flannigan!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> <off topic>Actually one night I was online and an American expressed his shock at me living in Ireland - he was convinced I was talking about a town called Ireland somewhere near Boston or something - because the internet doesn't go outside of America
> 
> I laughed so hard I couldn't answer him</off topic>


Stupidity and ignorance aren't the province of any one country or nationality, unfortunately. I apologize for my ignorant fellow American, Lobelia.

You know why the Irish don't rule the world? Because God invented whiskey! :mrgreen:

I'm of Irish descent, so I'm allowed to say that. Only second generation American, and my maiden name is Flanagan. My father and grandfather are verra proud to be of Irish descent.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> I declare to god, things haven't been the same since we're after getting the electricity!
> 
> :lol:
> 
> ...


[sarcasm]What? They gave you guys electricity too? [/sarcasm] :lol: :wink: 

That 'you have the internet too' thing is just too funny. It makes you wonder how some people remember to breath enough to stay alive.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> You know why the Irish don't rule the world? Because God invented whiskey! :mrgreen:


_*hic*_ I dunno what you're talking about! :lol:



Alwaysbehind said:


> That 'you have the internet too' thing is just too funny. It makes you wonder how some people remember to breath enough to stay alive.


It's the WORLD WIDE web, what was he thinking?!?! :lol:



Flanagan is gorgeous!!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Silly girl, don't you know the U.S. is the only part of the world that matters?

All you other countries are just peripheral, and therefore insignificant.

Pffft, silly Lobelia for thinking that anyone OTHER than an American is important! :lol:


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

well she can hardly see the maps or newspapers can she, without the electric, and its hard enough using the foot- treadle to power the computer without having to think of world powers! (lol) but we little islanders get by, you know, we get by!!!


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Pffft, silly Lobelia for thinking that anyone OTHER than an American is important! :lol:


I know, I feel like such an eejit!





lillie said:


> well she can hardly see the maps or newspapers can she, without the electric, and its hard enough using the foot- treadle to power the computer without having to think of world powers! (lol) but we little islanders get by, you know, we get by!!!



you don't want to know what I'm doing for light to read by!! :lol:


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## MistyMorning (Nov 24, 2009)

Just wanted to say that Flanagan is a stunner!!


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread has gotten so off topic lol


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## bubblegum (Oct 6, 2009)

what about the poiteen??????????????????????? surely it is a hell of a lot stronger than any whiskey out there


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Well I suppose discussing the merits of whisk(e)y is perhaps just a little off topic. However as I write this, there have been 160 other contributors and 1957 viewers which is a lot more attention than most threats attract. SO there has to be a lot of interest in it.

B G


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Barry, any time people bring up topics like GVs, Parelli, barefoot vs shod, equine slaughter, or rollkur, there's always going to be a big interest in the subject.

Those are all pretty polarizing subjects, and people have VERY strong opinions when it comes to them.

I'm just glad we've been able to discuss this topic without anyone having the vapors, getting huffy, cursing, or stomping off saying everyone's a meanie and they're NEVER, EVER coming back.

I'll rarely say no to a Jack and Coke, but scotch and milk is just disgusting!


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## chika1235 (Jan 1, 2009)

i personnaly dont like the gypsy vanner horses.i would prefer the fresians or a clydsdale.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

> Soon enough there will be a GV glut on the U.S. market, and they'll be as common here are they are in Ireland. Then the prices will drop to more sane levels for what is essentially an adorable, fat, hairy cart horse/heavy hunter.


Well, when they do I will buy me an adorable fat hairy carthorse/heavy hunter! They are just too darling for words...but...I am a tight wad. I do have two very nicely bred AQHA geldings and they will have to suffice.

My grandmother is Irish and Scottish. Her maiden name is Scott, her mother's maiden name is Ritch, and her mothers maiden name is McLaughlin. Grandma's paternal grandmother's name is Ryan. Don't know much after that so I guess Grandma is way more Scottish! LOL Carry on!


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> I'm just glad we've been able to discuss this topic without anyone having the vapors, getting huffy, cursing, or stomping off saying everyone's a meanie and they're NEVER, EVER coming back.



Haha, me too!


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## trvlingheart (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm coming in to this convo really late however I did want to point out somthing that I noticed in the Original post. There was talk about 2 different countries selling the horses for different prices $500 in Ireland and $20,000 in US. Keep in mind that at this day's current currency exchange rates a horse in Ireland selling for 500 pounds/euros (or what ever the currency used in that specific area) would be close to $1000 in US currency, wich would put a horse being sold in the US for $20,000 in US currency around half that amount in pounds/euros (give or take a bit due to flux in currency rates). 
So that is one big thing to take into consideration when talking about horses from different parts of the world. 

I'm curious as to why the first picture of the CC carting is considered a bad example of the breed? Besides it being dirty and wet, that horse looked good to me. 

I go to auctions and I can tell you I've seen some really beautiful and well trained spotted drafts and CCs/GVs come through for much less than $20,000 in the US. Even less than $10-5,000. I believe the price is based on what someone is willing to pay for a horse, it does not define what a horse is. I've seen some really horrible horses sell for outrageous prices and some really magnificant horses sell for rock bottom prices. 

I just posted some pictures of the dixie draft horse sale I just went to (in the draft section) and there is a clyde friesion cross that came through that was 4 years old, broke to ride, drive single, and was traffic and kid safe. This horse was quiet enough that the kids climbed on to the horse from the carriage in the ring full of people. This horse was trained by the Amish and trust me you can't get any better than Amish training, you have to see it to believe it. This horse sold for $1200! There was another Friesion (full blood) that came through that was 10 yrs old, broke to ride, drive single/double, kid broke, traffic safe, etc. Also Amish trained (different family from the other horse above), and was a registered Freision with papers in hand. And it almost sold for $7200 but the owners wanted $9000 . 

I believe that it really is about what someone is willing to pay for a horse, if there weren't people willing to pay $10-20,000 for a horse then horses wouldn't sell for that much. Blood lines really don't mean a thing, because the perfect blood lines can throw an ugly horse out, and you can't say it's due to bad breeding but that horse would only sell for a fraction of the price of a beautiful horse thrown from the same bloodlines. And a no name farm could breed a beautiful horse that could sell for the same price as one with a mile long sheet of famous bloodlines.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

in my earlier post i mentioned a 2yr oldin mayo i,ve found him now for anyone wanting to look www.drumshambo.com


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

Flanagan said:


> I'm shocked to see the prices here!! :O
> Here are my 2 Irish cobs (I believe the Irish cob, as a breed, is exactly the same as the gypsy vanner, they all came from the same place)
> Irish cob/vanner foals with papers go here for about 1500-2000 euro's
> This is Flanagan, bought him as a 12 year old, well schooled and behaved, ridden and driven. payed 4000 Euro's for him.
> ...


nothing wrong with either of them but personally i think kayla is the best shaped of the two


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

trvlingheart said:


> Keep in mind that at this day's current currency exchange rates a horse in Ireland selling for 500 pounds/euros (or what ever the currency used in that specific area)


Euros in Ireland 

€500 ≈ $750

$20,000 ≈ €13,300


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## trvlingheart (Aug 4, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> Euros in Ireland
> 
> €500 ≈ $750
> 
> $20,000 ≈ €13,300


Thanks, yeah I wasn't sure What Ireland used, I know many places in Scotland and England still use pounds. But I haven't visited Ireland yet, so I was unsure.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

trvlingheart said:


> Thanks, yeah I wasn't sure What Ireland used, I know many places in Scotland and England still use pounds. But I haven't visited Ireland yet, so I was unsure.



Scotland and England are both countries within the United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] the UK/Britain is still using Sterling (Great British Pounds), they're one of only 3 or 4 countries in Europe that didn't join in the Eurozone. 

Ireland is a separate country from the UK 

:wink:


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

Lobelia Overhill said:


> Scotland and England are both countries within the United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] the UK/Britain is still using Sterling (Great British Pounds), they're one of only 3 or 4 countries in Europe that didn't join in the Eurozone.
> 
> Ireland is a separate country from the UK
> 
> :wink:


 
yup irelands its own seperate country with differnet laws, currency, government etc. excpet 6 counties in the North the English own


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## trvlingheart (Aug 4, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> yup irelands its own seperate country with differnet laws, currency, government etc. excpet 6 counties in the North the English own


 
I didn't mean to imply that they were the same country, I know they arn't; Just wasn't sure of the currency used. Sorry for the confusion.


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## deineria (Mar 22, 2009)

If people are willing to pay $$$ for them, then I think it is great since most horses aren't selling for much these days.
GV are HARDLY the only breed where people are paying for beauty and bloodlines without any training. It is the norm in the Arab world, esp. the SE Arab world. 
The point is all horses who sell for much, sell because something is desirable about it, and it hardly matters if that is training, beauty or bloodlines - though all three are nice. Of course, you can get training after the fact, and the other things either are there or you're up the creek - lol!
However, I know of a trio of very well bred GV for sell here that have had their prices cut in half and still aren't moving, so the market is probably hitting a decline to the point the $20k GV will become less the norm.
I have a Toy Manchester Terrier. They look VERY similar to Min Pins - some people can't tell them apart. Min Pins can be found for nothing in papers and in pounds. TMT are expensive and very uncommon. They look almost exactly the same. You're paying for the breed's name, for the most part, and I am guilty.
At any rate, I think that I was far more impressed with GV in photos than in person. They tend to disappoint in person if you're hoping for the horse with the presence you see in the photos. I was so excited to see some, and when I did, I just wasn't impressed like I had thought I would be, and partly, that was due to the lack of size. I think had they the size of a Clyds or Shire, they would truly be something!


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

trvlingheart said:


> I didn't mean to imply that they were the same country, I know they arn't; Just wasn't sure of the currency used. Sorry for the confusion.


You'd said "I know many places in Scotland and England still use pounds." I was pointing out that they are two countries in the United Kingdom and both use the same currency (UK Pounds), although some shops will accept Euros and in some cases US Dollars.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but Deineria hit on pretty much the same thing I was thinking. You saw the same huge price tags on Arabs in the 80s. It really has to do with who is buying these horses. In the GV cases, I think it IS very much a trend or status symbol sort of thing - these are not primarily horse people interested in any particular discipline paying this money for these horses.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Now Lobelia, you are going to have some Welsh folks from the Isle of Anglesey bouncing up and down saying that there are four countries in the so called "United" "Kingdom" they are:
Northern Ireland + Scotland + England plus Wales. There are approximately 65 million of us - Great Britain is a crowded little
island and is roughly speaking on the same latitide as Labrador 50-58N.

And of course we all have the same Queen except that for the Scots, Elizabeth is Queen of Scotland and she wears a different crown.

Most of the English, but not all live on the Island of Great Britain
(about the size of Wyoming) which is just one of the British Isles which includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands but
which re not part of the UK.

There are British Crown Colonies & Protectorates all over the world (Bermuda, British Virgin Isles, Caymans, Gibraltar, Falklands, Pitcains, Monserrat, St Helena, Tonga,Tuvalu, but some of them don't hold quite the same passport. My own says "European Union" - not all of them do.

It is a complex subject and all very confusing issue for a foreigner - indeed to most Britons. Most of us, but not all, will answer to the nationality of "Brit" - one of the more polite terms.

But in answer to your question in Northern Ireland you spend Pounds, in Ireland (an independent Republic) you spend Euros. In the big cities you may spend either currency and in London you might even be able to spend US dollars in some shops.

The Island of Ireland - is one of the British Isles, but the Republic of Ireland is an independent nation not part of the UK.
Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and the inhabitants hold a full British Passport.

Most of us speak English but there are localities in Britain in which the local Brits speak another language as their first language.

Having started this I realize it is all too complicated.

Come and stay - you will be made welcome. Beware we drive on the wrong side of the road.

For the present time in a Pound Sterling area it is relatively cheap whereas in a Euro area it is relatively expensive - historically speaking. $ values fluctuate.

B G 

PS The horses don't speak English or any other language but they nearly all respond to an apple.


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> Now Lobelia, you are going to have some Welsh folks from the Isle of Anglesey bouncing up and down saying that there are four countries


I know, I was explaining something to trvlingheart, since she mentioned Scotland and England.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm coming into this one late, but I tend to agree with Deineria.

Several years ago, Friesians were the really "in" breed. They still kind of are, but GVs have become _the_ trendy breed for the moment. You can go to a horse expo like Equine Affaire and they are all over the place. 

Personally, they don't do much for me. With the type of riding I do, and the type of terrain I ride through, a horse of that type would be of no use to me. The demo horses, which I suppose are good representations of their breed, are "cute," but there is so much feather on their legs that they remind me of a fluffy little dog at the Westminster Kennel Club show. 

They definitely have their devotees, though. That's where the jokes about farting glitter and butterflies come from, because to hear some of the GV-lovers talk, they are truly "magical."

If people want to spend their money for that magical, colorful breed, it's their choice. The fact that they are spending that amount does not always mean they are getting the cream of the crop. . .uneducated, wealthy buyers may not understand that "pretty coloring" is not the same as having good bloodlines, good conformation, etc.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

deineria said:


> If people are willing to pay $$$ for them, then I think it is great since most horses aren't selling for much these days.
> GV are HARDLY the only breed where people are paying for beauty and bloodlines without any training. It is the norm in the Arab world, esp. the SE Arab world.
> The point is all horses who sell for much, sell because something is desirable about it, and it hardly matters if that is training, beauty or bloodlines - though all three are nice. Of course, you can get training after the fact, and the other things either are there or you're up the creek - lol!
> However, I know of a trio of very well bred GV for sell here that have had their prices cut in half and still aren't moving, so the market is probably hitting a decline to the point the $20k GV will become less the norm.
> ...


See now I think people who pay big bucks for a halter Arab are just insane. I think the same about people who pay big bucks for halter stock horses too. 

You should check out Drum horses. They look like GVs but have the size of a clydesdale or shire. There is one at a friend's barn right now and it so amazing to look at and watch move. It looks like it would be a nightmare to fit a saddle to though as it has this wide table like back and its neck kinda shoots straight up out of its shoulders. Really puppy dog personality though.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I have read through this message thread with some interest and can maybe clear up a few questions and misunderstandings.

Firstly, the vast majority of Gypsy breeders in the US, do not call their horses "Vanners". This was a name, coined by an early importer of the breed and due to enormous advertising and hype, many thought it was the name of the breed. He also started the vanner registry, so in truth, only those horses registered within that registry, can be called "Vanners".
Most of the breed fancy in the US, prefer to call them Gypsy Horses or Gypsy Cobs. But regardless of name or registry, many of the horses here are related, one way or another. We have now thousands of DNA'd horses on file and that of many of their ancestors, who are still in the UK. We also do tremendous research on pedigrees. Very few Gypsy Horses in the US, have pedigrees known to have included other breeds in recent generations. Many of the horses in the US, can now be traced back 7 generations.

99.9% of us, do not refer to our horses as "magical" or "Golden Retrievers with Hooves" and other silliness. Most often, that kind of thing is still put about on the net, by those in other breeds. Many of us had long careers in other breeds, before deciding on a Gypsy Horse and didn't choose one because we suddenly thought a "magical" horse had appeared on the horizon. 

The coloured horses one sees in fields by the side of the road in the UK, are probably not the type or breeding as those imported to the US. Serious Gypsy breeders in the UK, who's families have been breeding for generations, mostly keep their stock well hidden. Many breeders from the US go to the UK quite often, to visit the private farms or to attend Appleby Fair, to pick their stock to take to the States. As in any breed, certainly there is some inferior stock in the US, but most of the time, the quality is pretty high. As others have mentioned, few would spend the time and money, to pick out stock in the UK, pay the original price and then spend about another $12,000 (as it stands now) for transport to the US, if the horse was not of quality enough to meet our standards in the US. Unfortunately, many in the UK, see any old horse with a bit of colour and a bit of feather - or not, in fields there and think this is what we import. It is far from the truth. Certainly one can purchased a coloured cob there for little money, but I doubt seriously it's the type and quality Americans would purchase for their breeding programmes.

The serious and long time Gypsy breeders in the UK, have been buying and selling among themselves for generations and often the price they pay, would astound most. I know of many horses in the UK, who have been sold between the Gypsy breeders themselves, for upwards of twenty five thousands pounds. Many of the top horses there, will never see American shores. In the early days in the US, certainly some charged huge amounts for their horses, but changed pretty quickly. Now, one can purchase a nice quality horse for less than $6,000, born and bred in the US. 



> In the GV cases, I think it IS very much a trend or status symbol sort of thing - these are not primarily horse people interested in any particular discipline paying this money for these horses.


Many of us show our horses in different diciplines. In a recent show, 109 Gypsy Horses were shown and that number was more than many breeds in the country, with hundreds of thousands in their registries. So in comparitive numbers, we get out there, train and show our horses, more than many in other breeds - and not just at halter. We don't think of them as just pretty, but a horse with many capabilities and a tremendous work ethic. Many take part in the hunt, driving, compete in cross country, parades, jumping and dressage. Some of our horses even sort cattle at home _and_ compete in dressage the show ring. They are not just the fluffy horse we most often see pictured on the net and we certainly didn't purchase them as a status symbol. 

Just as a side note here. Someone in a previous post, said that the Gypsy breeders in the UK, use these cobs for racing. Not true. The Gypsy breeders there, often also breed fine trotters for their friendly racing activities. Quite a breed apart.

I hope I have been able to clear up a few misunderstandings about the breed here.


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