# Should horse racing be banned?



## 252553 (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm under the opinion that it should be banned because of the countless unnecessary deaths it has cost to both rider and horse. Mainly horse.

I would like to discuss both sides and hear what other peoples opinions are.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Personally I don't think so, and I'm sure aubie would agree with me. 

The industry has gotten a lot better about taken care of its horses, though there is still room for improvement. Some of these horses absolutely love what they do. You can see the light in their eyes when they're racing. Without a doubt they are born and bred athletes. I don't think the industry is perfect but also don't think it needs to disappear. Look around the forum and you'll find a lot of threads from race enthusiasts, regardless of what it's about, rather honoring a life or celebrating a victory.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

If you'd like a well reasoned perspective on the highs and lows of the industry (particularly the breeding and after care sides), I'd highly recommend reading the blog _A Yankee in Paris: _https://ayankeeinparis.com

I'm a fan with no direct connection to the industry (though I have extended family who have been owners and trainers in both TB and STB racing, primarily around Saratoga Springs, NY). I wish US racing was medication free and that poorly conformed horses (or those who can't race without Lasix or other drugs) weren't rushed off to the breeding shed. Otherwise, I mourn the loss of horses and riders just like everyone else, but also recognize that all horse sports, professional or amateur, involve risk.


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## 252553 (Apr 25, 2017)

See it is all and well that the standard of care has improved but it doesn't stop the needless deaths. 

At most I loathe the grand national, as I'm from the UK I know most of what goes on here not as much as what goes on in America.
In my opinion any life lost is a life too many regardless if it is horse or human. 

I do not agree with using any animal as a way to entertain human greed. This is one subject I won't be swayed on.

I have a low tolerance of human beings, with personal things that have happened to me as I grew up and what I've learned about humans. 

Animals should not suffer at the expense of a day out to the races. It is pure greed. But I do respect your opinion and thank you for sharing it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Well, let's see. There are thousands of horses out there who have homes because they are show horses, are in training to be show horses (or substitute racing horses for show horses if you like), or have the potential to be show or race horses. Stop racing and where do they go? What will happen to them when they no longer have a function? How many will YOU take?


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Dreamcatcher makes a good point ^^^

Also think about how many amazing show horses are OTTBs who once raced. If not for the programs that rehome them, so many that have found loving homes that give them care and a job to do would have gone to slaughter. Like she said, all the horses who have been bred to race, if they suddenly couldn't race, what would happen?

I've got a friend who owns an OTTB and another race-bred TB (she was bred to race but never did). Both have amazing homes with someone who cares for them. Both would be dead if not for this home, that is a fact based on their past, not an assumption.

I agree that some of what goes on in the racing industry is inexcusable, and respect the opinions of people who do not like racing though, as you also make good points.


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## 252553 (Apr 25, 2017)

Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


These horses are DOMESTIC. You can't 'reintroduce' a domestic horse to the wild. Horses have been domesticated for thousands of years. Feral horses live typically short, brutal lives, and turning a domestic animal loose to fend for itself is the cruelest thing you can do. Slaughter would be kinder.

You have some very strange ideas about horses, especially considering you seem to know very little about them or the industry. I guess maybe that's typical of suburban people who have no clue what rural life is really like, and how livestock are cared for.

_ All_ sport horses have been specifically bred for their sports. These are not some mutts grabbed off the plains, that have been allowed to breed willy-nilly.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Seoul said:


> See it is all and well that the standard of care has improved but it doesn't stop the needless deaths.
> 
> At most I loathe the grand national, as I'm from the UK I know most of what goes on here not as much as what goes on in America.
> In my opinion any life lost is a life too many regardless if it is horse or human.
> ...





Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


So, if you are so against using horses as a way to entertain humans, why are you on a horse forum where we all share out the love of riding/interacting with our horses? And returning them to the wild is laughable. Given the option, my mare would curl up in bed and sleep in my house. I know another that would have practically laughed at you if you thought you could turn him loose and "return him to the wild."

Honestly, you seem to have the view that horses should just be turned loose because you have this strange notion they'd be all super happy. What you're missing is the horses that practically vibrate with excitement to do their job. My mare is one of them.

I followed along well enough with you regarding the Grand National, and your worry about horse racing (though I'm not at all against horse racing, I just see how those not involved with the industry could question it.) But then to toss basically all horse owners under the bus? Yeah, I'm not sure how well that will fly on this forum.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Agree with the above, and simply calling someone narrow minded without offering any evidence as to why you're right and they're wrong holds no ground with me. I'm happy to discuss but will not argue. I see no point in arguing online with someone you have never met. 

Can't type more due to slow internet connection, but I'll suffice to say to each their own opinion.


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## 252553 (Apr 25, 2017)

Haha, You are extremely deluded and make too many assumptions about my life.

I live in one of the most rural parts of Scotland, I have studied agriculture for four years and again, I repeat myself I have been around horses most of my life. For love of god, stop making assumptions about my life just because I do not own a horse. 

Not once have I attacked you on your opinion, I have respected it so again please respect mine.

Slaughtering horses would not be kinder. I do not agree with horse slaughter. That is another discussion in itself. 

Regardless if the horse was domesticated, regardless if they've been domesticated for thousands of years. That is a humans doing and humans should do their best to take horses out of such dangerous things. I understand the wild is a cruel place. The whole world is a cruel place. But humans are the cruelest of all. You can easily have horses on a reserve or what please you. 

It is apparent to me that our opinions clearly are polar opposites of each other, which is fine but do not go around thinking you are better than other people who have a different opinion to you it just makes you out to be ignorant and blind to alternatives for horses that would clearly be better for them.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Seoul said:


> I would like to *discuss* both sides and hear what other peoples opinions are.
> 
> I do not agree with using any animal as a way to entertain human greed. *This is one subject I won't be swayed on.*
> 
> ...


Do you _really_ want to discuss, or do you want to get snarky with those who have different opinions?

I disagree that you can re-introduce any animal into the wild. Domesticated animals are not wild animals. Yes, humans have influenced their lives but it can often be for the better. They don't have to fight each other for food, or fight against predators. 




Seoul said:


> I do not agree with using any animal as a way to entertain human greed.


What do you classify as "human greed"? Just horse racing? Or does it extend to ANY equestrian event?

Do you own any pets yourself?


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I cannot find the link now but saw a fantastic article showing the fate of many wild horses after a few drought years in the central plains of the US. Most of the article and video were of ranchers showing the interviewer what wild horses really look like when nature is unkind. The pictures of dead foals and thirsty dieing horses was heartbreaking. And before we blame ranchers I would add that these horses were being fed and watered by the ranchers as well. They too had animals suffering. Ranchers can sell their stock in times when mother nature is unkind. Wild animals suffer and die agonizing slow deaths.

I used to cringe watching steeple chasing on CBS sports when I was young. Still not a fan but I understand that there are those that love the sport - as well as horse racing and cart racing. As others have said show horses, rodeo horses and even some back yard horses also suffer due to how they are ridden how they are cared for etc.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Definitely can't re-introduce a domestic horse into the wild.
If I threw Redz into the wild...he'd die, no doubt. Wouldn't be able to survive. He was never in the 'wild', so he would not know how to take care of himself. LOL, he'd run back home as fast as he can. :rofl:

Same with my guinea pigs. If I threw them outside...they'd die. Not how it works.

It does not work that way, and it is not that simple.

But no, I do not think it should be banned. I personally do not watch it, I am not into it.
I believe in ANY industry (any discipline, any sport regarding horses, etc.) there are good and bad people. Yes, some are mistreated. Same with some jumpers, etc. 
But not all of them are.

You should look up the Retired Racehorse Project.  To give you some insight, those horses get a second chance and it's pretty amazing to read up on the stories. Not every horse that was raced was neglected though, that is untrue.

And nobody is bashing you for not owning a horse.
You don't have to own a horse (or even ride!) to realize that is NOT how things work. :lol:


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## 252553 (Apr 25, 2017)

I do want to discuss it, I do apologise if what I said came across as snarky, it was unintentional. 

Like I said I have a low opinion of humans. But that is a different story. You can say that about any wild animal anywhere, but that is life for them I guess and yes that is a point can be used against me but it is the truth. 

I have the same opinion for any animal that is used for human entertainment, zoos, racing, dog racing etc etc. My opinion applies to anything that involves animals for human greed and the animals suffer. 
Though a grey area for me is showing your horse, not dressage, show jumping or cross country. Just showing your horse and taking pride and joy in the your life. It is a grey area because I don't know much about therefore I cannot make an opinion that isn't biased or false. 

And yes I do own pets, 4 cats and a dog but other animals have passed away recently due to old age, but I have looked after a horse while her owner was away in Spain for a few months.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


NO.

What, so we should turn loose all our cats and dogs too?

Out here in my area, it is sadly very common for people to turn their horses, dogs, cats, and whatnot out in the desert, thinking it is the best thing for them. These horses are often found wounded, emaciated, and suffering, and must be taken in by rescues. Some of them have to be put to sleep they are so bad off. It would be kinder to send them to the slaughterhouse, as speedracer said, than to condemn them to slow suffering out in the 'wild'. 

I guess that you are not aware of the very serious problem with wild horses in the USA. Or if you are, you possibly think like others I have seen make comments on youtube and such, that the wild horses should not be rounded up but left alone, etc.

The horses are not native, but are descended from domestic horses set loose. An overabundance of them, as we are currently dealing with, destroys the habitat for the native animals. The BLM has no choice but to round them up, leaving thousands in holding pens. The feed cost of caring for these animals takes a heavy toll out of their budget, so that any funds for management of the wild horses' breeding is extremely limited. All of those horses in holding pens desperately need homes, and there are simply not enough homes for them out there.

So we should all just turn our horses loose and let them fend for themselves, and create more problems like this?

I know that my sweet mare would miss her soaked alfalfa, our rides together, grooming sessions, the safety and comfort of her barn, 24/7 slow fed hay, and especially her peppermints.

But yup, with care like that, she would probably be so much happier being 'free'. :icon_rolleyes:


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Is this how you feel?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

To the OP:


I would like to ask why you started this thread? Are you writing a research paper or is your intention to re-educate the equine community? I ask because I find it odd that an new horse person would join a horseforum and start a thread like this. Now, don't get me wrong. You are more than welcome to join our community, in fact we encourage it. However, I feel like it's important to understand your topic so that we can better form our responses. You may also want to share some stats and personal experiences to explain your stance.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> To the OP:
> 
> 
> I would like to ask why you started this thread? Are you writing a research paper or is your intention to re-educate the equine community? I ask because I find it odd that an new horse person would join a horseforum and start a thread like this. Now, don't get me wrong. You are more than welcome to join our community, in fact we encourage it. However, I feel like it's important to understand your topic so that we can better form our responses. You may also want to share some stats and personal experiences to explain your stance.


Exactly my thinking as well..


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like *any animal* you can re-introduce them to the wild.
> 
> And yes I do own pets, 4 cats and a dog


So if you took your 4 cats and your dog and put them in the wild tomorrow ...... do you think they would survive?

I know that my dog would not. 
My parents' farm cats might be okay simply because they know how to hunt for food, by my mother-in-law's cat would be doomed (she is a lazy house cat that does not know how to hunt). 

I strongly disagree with you that any animal can be re-introduced into the wild. That is false. And the same goes for domesticated horses that have homes. They cannot simply be put back into the wild and be expected to thrive and survive. 



Seoul said:


> I have the same opinion for any animal that is used for human entertainment,* zoos*, racing, dog racing etc etc.
> 
> My opinion applies to anything that involves animals for human greed and the *animals suffer*.


How do you believe that animals suffer in a zoo?

I see it as 
1) they do not have to worry about predators or being attacked
2) they do not have to fight for food
3) they do not have to worry about drought, flood, fire, or other environmental disasters

Honestly, I think the animals who are in the zoo are pretty lucky compared to one that has to fight to survive in the wild. I certainly do not think they are suffering. 


Going back to your original thread question "Should horse racing be banned?" ... no, I do not think it should be banned. Sure, there are certain things I would like to change about it. Firstly, I don't like how young the horses are when they are raced. I think they should be older and let their bodies mature. Secondly, I think we need to continue to be strict against people who are trying to "sneak" drugs and medications into horses that are banned.

But the actual horse racing itself? For the horses that truly love to run, and for the trainers and owners who take impeccable care of them .... why, let them run their race. :gallop:


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If we banned a competitive sport, there will still be a desire for that sport. People will still race horses covertly. People with go to other countries and race there. 

Without a regulatory body like what is present in the current racing industry, there can be no oversight, enforcement of rules, welfare policies, no vets required. Any and all drugs could be used, abusive training. The people who would be participating in raving would end up being the kind of people who are already OK with breaking the law to get their kicks. 

If racing was shut down tomorrow, where will those horses go? One big long convoy to the slaughter house? Set them free? On what land? Even in the States and Canada where there is lots of uninhabited land, you cannot house all of the track horses there. The amount of arable land cannot support herds that big. Plus they will become pests to farms in the area and will get themselves shot. 

Northern Canada is basically empty, we can put them there. Except it is all boreal forest and permafrost up there. A herd of Shetlands could survive, but not TBs. They need too many calories, have too poor of coats, and not enough self preservation. 

Then what when these horses start breeding? 

What about any natural disasters, hard seasons, disease outbreaks? Is it worse to have 0.75% of starts die, vs thousands that would die to the elements? 

Even the slaughter house. It is worse to have an animal experience 2-3 days of stress then have it cleanly ended. Compared to starving over a hard season, getting just enough food to keep them alive, water is scarce, then they meet their end to a pack of wolves who slowly kill after having chased the horse to exhaustion?


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I find my dog pretty entertaining and so do others. Guess I fall into the evil human category. You now, if you don't like most humans, I hate to break it to you, but all of the members of the forum are human (pretty sure).


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


You should google American Mustangs and see why "reintroducing" horses to the wild makes absolutely no sense to us.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thread has been reviewed. 

Edits and post removals have been made. Please review the Horseforum Rules before continuing this thread. http://www.horseforum.com/announcement.php?f=34


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

No I do not think horse racing should be banned.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Just where in the UK would it be feasible to release ex racehorses into the wild? 

You say that you have studied agriculture for four years so you should know that land and stock has to be managed.

You have no clue as to how these horses are cared for when in training nor just how much money the racing industry puts into equine research which benefits all horses not just racehorses. 

Yes, horses do die racing, horses also die when not racing. 

Euthanasia for equines in the U.K. is very tightly run, it is humane and quick.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

No, most horses who race love to race. I know my TB loved it, do I agree with everything that goes on in racing? No but I don't have to.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

No....horse racing should not be banned....because, once you ban something it becomes much easier to ban the next thing, and where does it end?

Competitive horse shows? Dressage? Rolex? etc?

Face it, horses are pretty much obsolete in that they no longer have much purpose other than for the enjoyment and entertainment of their owners.

I realize there are some communities and cultures who still work their horses, but for the most part, a beast of burden has been replaced by mechanical machines....

Horses are still relevant to a large extent because of racing and other competitive ventures IMO.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

gunslinger said:


> Face it, horses are pretty much obsolete in that they no longer have much purpose other than for the enjoyment and entertainment of their owners.


 Well said!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

gunslinger said:


> No....horse racing should not be banned....because, once you ban something it becomes much easier to ban the next thing, and where does it end?


 I think this is the best reason for not banning racing that's been posted on this thread
The OP is looking at it from a UK perspective and as I'm also from the UK that's what I will do.
My Grandfather owned racehorses and I spent so much time with him that I sometimes felt as if grew up on a racing yard, my first ponies were kept there and I was initially taught to ride by one of the stable girls so I feel that I'm not at all biased when I say that there are a lot of things that do come under the 'cruelty' label that could be made better but things are changing for the best and its unfair to ignore that
What the industry does need to do is to better 'police' itself and I think public feeling, including from horse owning people, in the UK has done a lot to improve things
The OP mentioned the Grand National. It would be difficult to deny that it didn't look as if the horses running in it weren't set up to fail when in the 10 years between 2000 - 2010 there were 7 deaths out of 439 runners compared to an average of 4 deaths to 1000 runners in regular steeplechase races, that's not even taking into account the horses that were injured and never raced again but weren't euthanized directly after the race. The public outcry and lack of support for the race has forced through lots of changes to the course to make it safer and the result of that is 5 years with no deaths.
I don't believe that banning is the answer - working at making it a better environment for the horses involved in it is the answer.


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## NoraPet (Apr 26, 2017)

While i don't think it should be banned, I do think that very strict rules should be applied to it, such as tests for drugs, maybe banning or using better whips and maybe something like not allowing for horses with signs of abuse to race. But I really don't know much about this topic this reply shouldn't be taken too seriously. I have myself been to one horse race in Lexington and I think the sport itself is beautiful and test amazing limits, but it has become seriously abusive and cruel.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

gunslinger said:


> No....horse racing should not be banned....
> Horses are still relevant to a large extent because of racing and other competitive ventures IMO.



Agree! My horses are really into competitive eating and pooping. It's a pretty low stress activity and they seem to enjoy it a great deal. The added benefit is to myself with all that scooping.


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## arabianrider00 (Apr 20, 2017)

Seoul said:


> Sure you can re-home them but like any animal you can re-introduce them to the wild. Horses are and were wild before humans had their way with them, Sure it is an awful large task but it's a better choice that selling them off to meat markets or dealers. So don't throw that card at me and be so narrow minded.


Ha! If you told my horse or my labrador puppies that they could be "rehomed into the wild", they'd probably fall on the floor laughing at you. Horses are DOMESTIC. WE are no longer living in the stone age where horses roamed free all over the place and could fend for themselves. That was the old days. And the thing about the old days.. well, them's the old days . Horses are so domesticated that their instincts have weakened-they still know how to recognize a potential predator-they are prey animals after all (as anyone who's ridden a spooky horse will tell you, LOL.) But if you threw them out into the wild on their own, they wouldn't know how to find adequate food, water, shelter, etc. Domesticated horses typically have complex diets, so if you were to take my horse and throw him into the wild to eat only grass and leaves, he would not survive. Same with any other donesticated horse. Horses are no longer wild. You can't take a thoroughbred racehorse, or a dressage horse, or any kind of horse that has been pampered and loved on all their lives, and has been given the best care, exercise, and diet, and expect it to thrive. No way in H-E double hockey sticks. Also, domesticated riding horses often have great bonds with their riders/owners, and good human companionship can greatly enrich a horse's life. If you were to take my horse and throw him out into the harsh wild alone, without his "mommy", he'd probably become depressed and I know he'd be incredibly bored. Horses, especially smart ones, need mental stimulation. My horse practically bounces his way into the arena when it's time to work. He loves it. He would die in the wild, and so would the thousands of other loved, domesticated horses in the world. 

The problem with persons who want to "set all horses free!!" is that they have dreamy, unrealistic visions in their head of majestic wild mustangs running around, like a picture-perfect scene of a movie, where they are happy and majestic, free from "the bonds of human constraint"!!! But the hard truth is that less and less horses are able to survive in the wild nowadays. It just isn't possible. Life is hard for wild horses; there is less land and food for them than there was hundreds of years ago. Not to mention, releasing thousands of domesticated horses screws with the ecosystem of an area; land would become crowded and overpopulated with horses, which leads to more food for mountain lions and other predators to eat, and before you know it you have overpopulated predators. You'd have more farmers' livestock being killed and eaten by those overpopulated predators. There are consequences to these kinds of things.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Seoul said:


> I'm under the opinion that it should be banned because of the countless unnecessary deaths it has cost to both rider and horse. Mainly horse.
> 
> I would like to discuss both sides and hear what other peoples opinions are.


For what you appear to be looking at you really needed to word your question differently. It's a bit like saying should drinking wine be banned.

Reason being is that not all racing is created equally. From what I've seen the question you're looking for is should modern flat track racing (TB and other futurities) be banned. You'll get the same host of replies , but I'll explain why it's important to ask this sort of question as specifically as possible.

No, racing should not be banned. There are very well managed, horse conscious races. Endurance racing, in general, is pretty responsible (horse must be at least 60 months old, etc....). Horse racing can be done in a manner that is not so detrimental for the horse.

Yes, I feel modern flat track racing should be banned, but only because what it evolved into. Flat track racing today (or even for the past 100 years) is not about the speed of the horse. If it were about the speed they'd be racing 7 and 8 year olds. A 7 year old stallion that was trained conditioned for racing after it's body was properly mature enough for each stage will leave a 3 or 4 year old colt in the dust. Once upon a time there were raced at the older age and even TB races were longer (by miles). Once upon a time they didn't dump 5,000+ TB (that's from the TB racing industry alone) on the market every year with many of them suffering from physical problems caused by being ridden and raced too soon in their development (e.g. racing before even the leg bones have finished maturing, let along the back and rest of the skeleton and joints). This doesn't make racing bad. It just means the industry doesn't "really" care about the horse beyond it's value for winning and subsequently breeding (if it's a proven winner). It's an industry. It's about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The longer you wait to race the horse the longer you have to feed and care for it before finding out if it's even going to make you any money. The sooner you race it the sooner it can start paying for it's upkeep.....or get dumped, because it's a looser (so you don't waste more money on it). Always remember that it's a business and it's about making money. So if you can race for 3 or 4 years and win most of them and have a colt that you can charge a heft stud fee on then you've hit the racing jackpot. Of course then there's the issue of them using them for stud to early too, but that's a different topic (and they've developed rehab for that too). Now there are also successful fillies out there who make big money too. Just can't breed them as much and sort of limited to the number of foals you'll be able to sell out of them. Ruffian comes to mind (a contemporary of Secretariat), but her carrier (and life) ended after her breaking her sesamoids in that match race where she was proving that she could out run the colt who won Derby that year (Foolish Pleasure I believe), but she didn't get to finish the race. Of course she had already survived one broken bone that had healed up (the year before I think). Goes to show that they'll do whatever they can to keep a proven winner running. Bigger and or more numerous the wins, the bigger the pay off at the end. Imagine the money to be made on a foal out of her sired by Secretariat.

No, racing isn't bad, but the racing industry is not good for horses. It's a business and the horses are just a commodity used to make money. The way flat track racing is done today should be banned, but racing should be allowed with horses trained when the physical development of the horse allows for each level of training, conditioning and preparation. Racing 7 year old horses, who were started under saddle at 5 are not going to result in the kind and number problems you see today. But then I know people who start riding their horses at 2 years old which is years before they're ready. However, they have the big animal and it "looks" ready, and other people do it, and they don't want to wait all those years (and of course they don't know the actual development process for the equine skeleton and joints) so....they saddle up and ride, because they don't know any better (I prefer not to say they don't care, because I always like to think that they would if they knew.....but then I do sometimes hear them make arguments and excuses to excuse or justify it when they're informed) 

But look at the bright side. With the many thousands of OTTB's dumbed out there for people who want cheap (or free) horses....added to the unwanted show horses, backyard horses, other racing industry horses (QH, etc...) no one should ever have problem finding a horse. Of course most of the horses end up having a problem finding home. The TB racing industry alone puts 50,000 animals on the market per decade. There's never going to be enough people to take them all. Not to mention that the racing TB are not bred to be physically hardy animals like they were hundreds of years ago. e.g. their bones are not has heavy...remember it's about speed and weight slows you down so lighter bones are better (unless you're not racing on a flat track).

As the those with the "feral" horse ideas. In fact, a horse will revert to a feral state relatively easily in an area with terrain that will support them. How do you think so many feral bands started to begin with (Crackers in FL, March Tacky in SC -although none currently exist in the wild, I remember when they did...and other associated horses now living on a couple of islands in VA and NC, Mustangs throughout most of the western states, Brumbies in Australia). If they have food they generally manage. And if they can find another horse (or more) they'll manage pretty happily. The problem isn't their ability to go feral. The problem is a place to live. Development will prevent them. They're not like cats or pigs. They're LARGE and move over a greater area. Grazing as they go. Human population density and development most areas make it impossible for horses to manage. At least in the eastern half of the US. That's what the few left from the earlier feral horses are restricted to islands where there are managed and protected.

 Hope that answered your question and explained why.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you don't want to see horses available to anyone but the wealthy, ban racing. Anytime you ban something that promotes using horses, this is where it is going to lead. Less horses bred to do something, less forage grown, less land needed to keep said horses and forage, it's a slippery slope. Look beyond your own nose.


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## Decalcomania (May 1, 2017)

Yes I think it should be banned. Apart from all the deaths it is just real horse abuse to train an young underdeveloped horse into carrying a human and running until they break. By the time they are all grown up those horses are already either killed because they aren't winning enough, they broke a leg or (if they are lucky) they are on pension.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Decalcomania said:


> Yes I think it should be banned. Apart from all the deaths it is just real horse abuse to train an young underdeveloped horse into carrying a human and running until they break. By the time they are all grown up those horses are already either killed because they aren't winning enough, they broke a leg or (if they are lucky) they are on pension.


Banning these sports, in my opinion, will just open up a new "underworld" for gambling and racing and that would result in true abuse and breakdowns. As in any sport, human or animal... It would be better if specific regulations created by a panel of experts were put in place and enforced. 


But understand anything like that would take years to be properly researched, set in motion, etc...


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

I took in a tb who had been living the natural life on 160 acres of pasture - he was a bone rack, severely dehydrated and his feet were a mess. It was beginning of a rather mild november, he would have likely been dead by january after winter hit. But hey that's natural.
domestic animals are not natural


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> Banning these sports, in my opinion, will just open up a new "underworld" for gambling and racing and that would result in true abuse and breakdowns. As in any sport, human or animal... It would be better if specific regulations created by a panel of experts were put in place and enforced.
> 
> 
> But understand anything like that would take years to be properly researched, set in motion, etc...


Actually, it wouldn't take 24 hours to have the information ready to use. It's already there. Been there for decades. Inspectors and regulators (if you didn't already have enough on hand) could be trained and in a few months you'd have everything you needed.

The problem is not in research (it's already done...look at Endurance Racing and the rules it has). The knowledge on the development rates for a horse are well known and documented.

The problem is making it into law. Does anyone honestly thing for a nanosecond that the any of the Derby, futurity, or any of the flat tack racing industry is going to allow that? Remember the 60's and 70's when the tobacco industry fought to show that smoking wasn't harmful. Brace yourself, because you see it all over again, but with horse and racing instead of tobacco and smoking. I can even tell you the two arguments. 
1) it's not harmful to the horse. They'll bring in all there experts to attest to that with their studies that show that the horse is in no way harmed or damaged. (the tobacco industry did the same thing to prove that smoking was not harmful....loads of tests and studies to back them up). Of course it's all BS, but it's what they'll do to insure they can continue.
2) it will kill those portions of the racing industry which would result in $billions of lost revenue. That is partially true. It will create a huge reduction in the number of people breeding and racing, because of the expense of waiting and training a horse properly at the proper stage of development, but the industry will not die. It will just evolve and the old track records will end up being shattered as fully developed and well conditioned horses show off what TB and QH can really do when they're raised and trained right.

As for having any impact on people not being able to have horses if the racing industry is stopped. That's rubbish. That might have been true if all the horses people have were produced though the racing industry, but we know that's not the case. In point of fact even if you killed the racing industry completely the only impact it would have would be to reduce the number of unwanted horses dumped on the market by about 2/3 which would mean the remaining 1/3 would have a better chance of finding a home. Horses are not going away and it's not the racing industry that keeps them here. Outlaw racing as it's practiced today and other than the monetary impact it will actually benefit horses in the long run. Outlaw it completely and it still will have no negative impact on horses and the only impact on horse owners will be that there will be about 5,000 fewer unwanted TB looking for a home.
As for illegal racing..... make racing illegal and a black market horse racing industry wouldn't barely be worth the effort let alone the cost....horses are large and racing takes up space so it's not like a dog or cock fight you can do in someone's garage, backyard, or down the end of some dirt road....that's why you don't see the betting industry running a lot of illegal races now...not even with dog racing (and that would be easier)...too difficult to do effectively AND be profitable (i.e. it would cost more than it's worth to successfully do illegally).

But no one is going to outlaw it, because there's too much money involved and it doesn't REALLY matter about the horses (except for the few who that are proven winners). They're expendable. A commodity to be used to make money and discarded when it doesn't so that becomes someone else's problem. Does anyone honestly think that over 100 years of horse racing tradition, around which an industry and social traditions have been created (just think about Derby day...ladies in their hats, etc....which is done EVERYWHERE in the US) is going to end just because it is damaging and unhealthy for horses? It's not like their humans. We tolerate factory farms for producing our meat and eggs so what's the big deal about horses (I'm just say all that to put into perspective....I don't agree with it).

It could all be corrected and done better, but let's face it. In reality people barely matter to the law makers (only our money and votes matter to them) and we matter even less to industries (except for out money).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Actually, it wouldn't take 24 hours to have the information ready to use. It's already there. Been there for decades. Inspectors and regulators (if you didn't already have enough on hand) could be trained and in a few months you'd have everything you needed.


I meant any new or changed rules. It really does take YEARS for them to kick in. Generally a new rule comes out with a specific effect date. Say, 2 weeks, a month, a year, next season. That's when the rule actually takes effect. You can't change something today and expect the entire sport to automatically know and understand the new rules. You have to get the word out. And then you have to understand the reality of it. The reality is that the rules are bent for years to come after a new rule. Is it wrong? Most definitely. So while yes, a rule could be ready to use in a day, the reality is, it takes years. If you've been in that world, then you know the truth.


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

252553 said:


> See it is all and well that the standard of care has improved but it doesn't stop the needless deaths.
> 
> At most I loathe the grand national, as I'm from the UK I know most of what goes on here not as much as what goes on in America.
> In my opinion any life lost is a life too many regardless if it is horse or human.
> ...


i'm not going to read all 5 pages: but isn't any horse riding a form of human entertainment except for the few actual "working" horses?

personally I'm completely A-OK with horse racing, horses are born trying to figure out how to die it doesn't matter if it's a trail horse, endurance horse, race horse, plow horse, or just a backyard pasture ornament horse. 

the cool thing about animals bigger than us is we have 2 options: we can try to convince the horse to work with us in a peaceful manner encouraging good behavior or we can try to bully the animal into doing what we want it to do. the first one results in a horse enjoying their job and progressing at their job (in the case of racing, enjoying running, thus they get to go out on the track listen to the jockey's cues and run) the second results in a horse that may try but isn't going to amount to as much because they don't enjoy what they are doing and ultimately will result in the horse standing his ground saying "i'm uncomfortable with what you are asking of me so i won't do it" that horse loses the race

so what i'm getting at is no owner wants to push their horse to the point of death/injury and every good horse owner knows that if you find the right job for your horse and take care of your horse that horse will happily preform it's job and do it better because it's happy


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Horses like to run, no doubt about it. The problem arises when it becomes important for a human that their horse run the fastest, because they need a return on their investment. Everything good can get corrupted when profit motives are unchecked by a lack of ethics. Thus: banning no (horses like to run), oversight yes (humans have incentive to push them beyond what's healthy).


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

a lot of TB racing isn't actually about having the fastest horse in the race, you also have to have a good jockey.

the winner of the preakness probably wasn't actually the fastest horse. I read an article that the jockey & trainer had discussed holding the winner back a bit in hopes that the speed horses would wear themselves out, it didn't work by a LOT but it worked. I know my farrier who has race horses often comments that a good jockey on a good horse can set the pace for the field, or hold their horse back if the rest of the field is setting too fast of a pace knowing that if the pace is too fast the fast horses will be slowing by the end but a steady pace through the first 3/4 then letting the horse go all out in the last 1/4 will result in that horse passing the ones that lead for the first 3/4 of the race.

some horses don't like dirt in their face so just have to try and hit the front of the pack and be the pace setter, but it's not just a sport of throwing a light weight rider on and telling the horse to run


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## ForrestSprings (May 26, 2017)

I will say I think these animals love what they do and I know it's tradition but I'd just like to see them stay off yearlings. Its my understanding that the flexibility of the 2 and 3 year old spine helps but a horse's peak racing age tends towards 4. Exercise them and build their stamina around 2 sure but getting on a 14 month old horse isn't something I'm comfortable with even if they mature physically faster than most breeds. 

I started mounting and dismounting my horse when he was 2 and a half but that was all, not running at top speed. He's 3.5 now and we have some short trots and I let(yes let) him canter in the field twice because he just wanted to go and we always go slow so when he asks "can we go?" sometimes I give him a nudge and say "well you asked for it."


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> I meant any new or changed rules. It really does take YEARS for them to kick in. Generally a new rule comes out with a specific effect date. Say, 2 weeks, a month, a year, next season. That's when the rule actually takes effect. You can't change something today and expect the entire sport to automatically know and understand the new rules. You have to get the word out. And then you have to understand the reality of it. The reality is that the rules are bent for years to come after a new rule. Is it wrong? Most definitely. So while yes, a rule could be ready to use in a day, the reality is, it takes years. If you've been in that world, then you know the truth.


If you wanted to me nice to the industry you could wait until the end of the season, but it's not needed to put the change in place.
1. It's not done by a rules change (rules are easer to break). You do as I said. You make a LAW. Law goes into effect on a date. After that date you follow it or be sited for violating it. The heavier the penalty the less likely it will be violated. You charge a track $1,000,000 per horse per violation I promise you the violations will stop REAL FAST. And just make the 3rd violation (which could happen on all on the same day) result in permanent closure of the track. I promise you that if the law was enacted it wouldn't take 48 hours before EVERY track owner in the US would now EVERY detail about it (you wouldn't even have to send it to them). It might take 24 hours longer before every racing stable/farm would know it too. It's actually easy enough to do once the law is in place. Problem is it will take a decade of more to pass the law (if ever). Look how long it took with the tobacco industry and we were looking at people there, not expendable animals.
2, At most, 4 months to fully implement once the law is enacted (if you don't have enough people with the ready knowledge to post at the tracks). There really aren't that many tracks in the US (not even close to 1,000). Only about 2/3 of the states even have tracks and about half of those have 2 or less.
So you spend 3 months training inspectors/regulators and a month deploying them.
Oh, it's very doable and implementing it would be easy enough. If you ever managed to get the law put into effect. How long did it take the tobacco industry to start labeling tobacco products with safety warnings? When a law is enacted and penalties attached then industry jumps provided the penalties are severe enough and enforced.


The only thing that prevents any of that from happening is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Run them young, if they break who cares. We're only out about 2 years worth of expense and we have plenty more were they came from. Remember, it's a "sport" in name only. In reality it's a business industry and the horse is just a commodity who's worth is determined by whether it wins or not. A loser is just meat on the hoof to be disposed of as quickly as possible to cut cost. That is the harsh, unpleasant, reality of flat track horse racing (not just in the US). Whether it's TB, QH, Standardbred, or whatever. The system works the same for flat track horse racing.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

tim62988 said:


> a lot of TB racing isn't actually about having the fastest horse in the race, you also have to have a good jockey.
> 
> the winner of the preakness probably wasn't actually the fastest horse. I read an article that the jockey & trainer had discussed holding the winner back a bit in hopes that the speed horses would wear themselves out, it didn't work by a LOT but it worked. I know my farrier who has race horses often comments that a good jockey on a good horse can set the pace for the field, or hold their horse back if the rest of the field is setting too fast of a pace knowing that if the pace is too fast the fast horses will be slowing by the end but a steady pace through the first 3/4 then letting the horse go all out in the last 1/4 will result in that horse passing the ones that lead for the first 3/4 of the race.
> 
> some horses don't like dirt in their face so just have to try and hit the front of the pack and be the pace setter, but it's not just a sport of throwing a light weight rider on and telling the horse to run



TB racing, and all flat track racing, is about only one thing. $$$$$$$$$ Making money is the ONLY reason it exist as an industry today. It's not about anything else. They can paint the prettiest picture of it that they want, but if it looks like crap and smells like crap and came out of my dogs butthole I don't need to taste it to be sure of what it is.


People should stop and think (what a novel concept that would be).
The Jockey Club sets the age for all racing TB. Their birthday is 1 Jan of that year. 
So lets start off my doing a bit of basic math.....old is that 3 year old really?
Now lets put in the colts (colt, young, intact, male horse, under the age of 4) training. When did it start (running, with a rider). Well, since we don't know how old he REALLY is we can't be sure since it's all based on a 1 Jan birthdate, but we can be sure WAY before even half his leg bones an joints are developed.
Next let's look at the stage of physical development of this young colt. Plus or minus a month, it takes 3 years (that's 36 months based on the actual date a foal came out of the mare) for the leg bones and joints to finish developing from the hoof to the base of the scapula. Add 6 months for colts (all bones and joints take longer for colts than fillies....hormones, more muscle, longer development time, etc...) so that's 3.5 years (or 42 months). Now the legs (up to the base of the scapula) are developed. Of course the back and neck still have another 24 months to do before they finish. So for a filly they're ready for light riding with a light rider (10-15 minutes of easy walking) at 54 months (after she's a mare which is 48 months) and ready to start working more under saddle at 60 months. Add 6 months for stallions.
Now, unfortunately for the flat track racing industry these are numbers from the equine medical establishment. All the flat track people can to is try to blow smoke and tell you things to make it look like what they're doing isn't really bad for the horse.
And unfortunately a lot of people fall for it. They don't stop and think. It's easier to just believer what these industry people tell you.
So stop and think. Why would these industry people want to alter what equine medical science has proven to be true? (Could it be because the truth makes what they do look really bad????....um, probably so)


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ForrestSprings said:


> I will say I think these animals love what they do and I know it's tradition but I'd just like to see them stay off yearlings. Its my understanding that the flexibility of the 2 and 3 year old spine helps but a horse's peak racing age tends towards 4. Exercise them and build their stamina around 2 sure but getting on a 14 month old horse isn't something I'm comfortable with even if they mature physically faster than most breeds.
> 
> I started mounting and dismounting my horse when he was 2 and a half but that was all, not running at top speed. He's 3.5 now and we have some short trots and I let(yes let) him canter in the field twice because he just wanted to go and we always go slow so when he asks "can we go?" sometimes I give him a nudge and say "well you asked for it."



:grin: Stop drinking the Kool-Aid that the TB racing industry hand out.
A young horse's flexible spine only means it's more susceptible to injury. The peak age for speed with a TB, if they are conditioned and trained accordance to their physical development is 7-8 years. Let's try to put it into an easer to understand picture.
A 2 year old colt is about the equivalent of a 6 year old boy. Now even though human are better designed for carrying weight (we stand upright so bearing weight on our shoulders distributes it so that our skeletal systems can best handle it...not so for the horse) would you put a back pack with 25 lbs of sand on a 6 year old and make him run 0.25 miles???? Probably not.
A 3 year old colt is roughly the same as a 9 year old boy. Would you put a back pack with 50lbs of sand on his back and make him run 1.5 miles? Probably not. At least not if you didn't want to be charge with child abuse.
But let's say to did start training this young boy and got him running with that 50lbs for 1.5 miles and we'll even say he was so good he could out run all the other boys who were also worked up to being able to do that. So he's good, even though there are medical problems that are going to start plaguing him before long.
Now I show up with my "boy" who are starting running for 20 yards carrying nothing when he was 6. We were running 50 yards with nothing when he was 9, and we continued with this same pattern until he was 15. At which time I introduced him to a back pack and 10lbs. For the next 6 years we gradually increased the weight and distance. Now, at 21 (or 7 if he was a horse) I bring him to race your 9 year old. Who do you honestly think is going to win and by how much? It's going to be embarrassing. Now that's really what you're looking at. TB racing use to be with older horses that ran longer races and were strong, robust animals that could stand up to it, because......they'd be trained right over the years as they developed. That's expensive though and it's about money now....so we have to forget about the horse, and get down to making the money.


Horse, like humans, develop at set rates. Most people tend to violate those rates and the horse suffers for it. Fortunately there are two things that make it easy to ignore that. 1. horses are very stoic and will endure a great deal. 2. they are dumb animals (unable to speak...dumb is not stupid) so they can't "really" complain. :grin:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I believe that it is only in the USA where drugs are allowed on horses that are racing.

A young horse is more susceptible to strains and sprains. A good horse comes up slightly lame, nothing much, just slightly on the nod so as nothing obvious is slapping the trainer in the face, gove it a few doses of Bute. Perfectly sound, so press on and get it into races. 
That slight lameness was a warning that something was going on and the stress of running causes major breakdown. 

Ban all use of all drugs and a lot of the major track injuries would stop.


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

In Australia drugs are definitely banned, and regulated very heavily here. It's a huge industry for us, but due to many many advocates for the other side, the government has really cracked down on it, keeping the regulations and standards high. 

While I can never agree with riding/racing 2YO's, racing here is a huge industry, which means its huge for our economy, jobs, in many areas not just horse racing. 
So it is unrealistic to ever imagine it being banned.
But I am glad to see the government here are starting to listen, and realistically that is probably the only way to get anything done or changed, as above have all stated, it's all about the $$ so it's probably never going to be banned. If more laws are in place it can at the very least improve.
We had a huge uproar a year ago about our greyhound racing, when many trainers were not following the rules, many are and will be in jail for a long time, I think the majority of dog trainers here got thrown the book at them, many race tracks were closed, and so on. 
Bad things of course, still happen, some people don't see animals for what they are, they see $ signs. 
But I think going about things in the right way can at least increase chances for these animals. 
We also now have massive organizations to rehome both OTTBs / xtrotters / greyhounds so it's being made harder and harder to 'get rid of' poor performing animals to give them a better chance.
It'll never be perfect, but small dooable chances sure help a lot.


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> I believe that it is only in the USA where drugs are allowed on horses that are racing.
> 
> A young horse is more susceptible to strains and sprains. A good horse comes up slightly lame, nothing much, just slightly on the nod so as nothing obvious is slapping the trainer in the face, gove it a few doses of Bute. Perfectly sound, so press on and get it into races.
> That slight lameness was a warning that something was going on and the stress of running causes major breakdown.
> ...


fairly sure the only drugs allowed are lasiks, horses are tested after the races for drugs even the small county fairs that have horse racing do drug testing


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I know that a horse could race on Bute as long as it was declared. Might have changed the rules.

The statistics of race related injuries for the US is way higher than the UK even taking into account the numbers in training. The biggest differences are firstly the surface and secondly the number of times a horse races.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> ...Drugs are not allowed in European horse races. But in America, they aren't just legal, they're widely used — particularly furosemide, better known as Lasix. The drug helps prevent horses' lungs from bleeding during races...
> 
> ...Tom Ludt, outgoing chairman of the board of directors of the Breeders' Cup, says the issue of medication in the U.S. horse racing culture is extremely complicated.
> 
> ...


Routine On U.S. Racetracks, Horse Doping Is Banned In Europe : NPR



> While the issue of over-use of therapeutic medications is a concern across most of the racing world, it is arguably the most pressing in America, as the medication rules there allow for much more aggressive usage. For example, while the common pain-relief medication phenylbutazone, more commonly known as bute, has a withdrawal period of seven days in Great Britain and Ireland, it can be used up to 24 hours before a race in America. One of the most talked-about medications in world racing is furosemide (Lasix) and while it has a withdrawal period of two days in Great Britain and Ireland, it can be used up to four hours before a race in America.
> 
> Lasix may grab most of the headlines in this debate, but perhaps even more concerning is the use of corticosteroid joint injections. These are injections used to treat pain and swelling caused by joint disease and arthritis. While they are a perfectly legitimate medication when used responsibly, there are widespread fears that they are being used far more liberally than is recommended in a bid to keep unsound horses training and racing...
> 
> ...While Great Britain and Ireland have withdrawal periods of 14 days for intra-articular use of corticosteroids such as triamcinolone acetonide, betamethasone and methylprednisolone, the withdrawal periods for those substances in America are just seven days. - Thoroughbred Daily News


The Real Problem With Drugs In Horse Racing | TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions



> It may sound like a fanciful and perhaps even naive theory, but there is scientific evidence that suggests it may not be as wishful in its thinking as it might sound. For example, while anabolic steroids, EPO and blood-doping substances such as cobalt chloride have been long proven to be significant boosters of peak performance levels in humans, the scientific studies that have been conducted on the effects of those substances on the peak performance of Thoroughbred horses have been inconclusive at best, with many of them questioning whether they have any benefits at all.
> 
> To theorise why this might be the case, the fact that Thoroughbreds are naturally equipped with such freakish amounts of muscle mass on such a relatively light frame may mean that the use of anabolic steroids to add more muscle mass could well do more harm than good, unbalancing what is a finely balanced athletic equation leading to breakdown or athletic inefficiencies. With regard to EPO and cobalt chloride, the potential for them to have as significant an effect on Thoroughbreds as they do on humans is greatly reduced by the fact that all Thoroughbred horses have an in-built blood doping system in the form of their remarkable spleens, which flush great volumes of red blood cells into a horse’s blood stream when maximum effort is required. - - Thoroughbred Daily News


Let?s Talk About Drugs In Racing | TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions

I'd like to see laws passed banning racing horses under 5 years old. And maybe one allowing only races of 1/4 mile for sprinters, and 2+ miles for all others. That might end breeding for "_freakish amounts of muscle mass on such a relatively light frame_". It would probably put more emphasis on jockeys, on tactics, and cause breeders to breed for stronger skeletons.

There might be a better solution. As it is, I can't bring myself to watch a horse race any more. It looks too much like abuse.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks for that BSMS!

An animal shows lame for a reason. Fine using drugs to alleviate pain but to continue to work them hard when they have been drugged is going to lead to a breakdown of some sort. 

Incidentally, the EU wanted all horses to have passports and if a vet prescribes Bute for that animal it should be written in the passport amd that horse should never enter the food chain regardless of how long ago it was dosed.


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