# Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling - True Horsemanship?



## Spyder

Doe said:


> . The horse will have learned to collect and balance such that it can perform Haute Ecole manoeuvres without a bit as a crutch. (or 5th leg) All signals are via the weight aids, so reins are unnecessary.
> Though demonstrating the Haute Ecole forms you are allowing the horse to express itself, through actions that are natural to it (like a horse performing a piaffe in a field) not perform tricks on demand. Therefore he will not take part in sports like dressage, as he states that these are actions designed to turn nature into a vehicle.



You see I discount any "trainer" or whatever you want to call them for they all have the same thing in common.

Every one of them ONLY work with Iberian horses that naturally collect. This proves nothing and ONLY when I can see such people work with a variety of breeds and breed types will any of them get any respect from me.


----------



## Doe

Good point Spyder. However I can personally vouch for him having worked with Icelandics, Drafts, Arabs, Warmbloods and QHs. Incidentally the bareback video - Janus I don't believe is Iberian but I could be wrong. As much of his development work was done in the Spanish Pyrenees then of course there will be a lot of Iberian types in his photos.

The new book however 'it is not I who seek the horse, the horse seeks me' has a wide variety of breeds in the photos.

Regardless of collection, also the control of strong horses whilst maintaining their spirit via his approach is not dependent upon breed. This Iberians are just as wild as any other horse.


----------



## Spyder

Sorry but I will still put my faith in those that I KNOW work and deal with anything and everything.

My "mentor" as such can get on ANY horse and even if reins are there can collect a horse by the strength of his seat alone. He also can work ANY horse at liberty.

He also rarely shows so just because you say YOUR person does not show does NOT put Klaus in any special category. It is simply a choice of the individual, but my person does not think that showing destroys or inhibits any of the spirit of the horse.

That is a myth based on prejudice and erronous assumptions by the tree huggers. It is this type that has created the many problems we have in the industry already with the slaughter ban as an example.


----------



## Doe

Spyder said:


> Sorry but I will still put my faith in those that I KNOW work and deal with anything and everything.
> 
> My "mentor" as such can get on ANY horse and even if reins are there can collect a horse by the strength of his seat alone. He also can work ANY horse at liberty.
> 
> He also rarely shows so just because you say YOUR person does not show does NOT put Klaus in any special category. It is simply a choice of the individual, but my person does not think that showing destroys or inhibits any of the spirit of the horse.
> 
> That is a myth based on prejudice and erronous assumptions by the tree huggers. It is this type that has created the many problems we have in the industry already with the slaughter ban as an example.


Lol talking of prejudice why is everything about tree-hugging?

Incidentally KFH is not my mentor, though I would be lucky if he were, as too are you if your mentor is anywhere near that good.

As for not competing I was not stating that put him in any special category, I am merely reflecting his views to help people understand the differences in approach between horsemen.

On a personal note however, no I will not ever compete any horse I work with, but as you rightly say that is a personal choice. Personally when I saw the reining horses at a top level I have never seen anything so lifeless and lacking in soul. It has taken sometime to teach Sonny that he is allowed to have a personality and that he is not a robot, and he is much better and happier for it in my opinion. However in the reining world they just consider that well trained.

Not competing is as much about not trusting myself as it is anything. 

Anyway I am just posting because some others expressed an interest to hear more about other published horsemen out there, rather than simply PP and CA or their clones.

Like I say it's not for everyone.


----------



## tinyliny

I read his first book and watched many of his Youtube videos and it is remarkable to watch him work with horses. However, he does not explain or teach his "method" very well in a way that can be utilized by average people. He is very charismatic, something which horses quickly pick up on but not somehting we are all blessed with.


----------



## Doe

Tiny I agree. Like I say, there is a definite method, however it's a lot harder to understand than other simpler systems such as the typical NH system. Ultimately it is not about duplicating every single move and it is very difficult to learn from a book. Like feel it cannot be taught, certain things you have to find yourself. Having said that, the third book has enabled me to really go back and fully appreciate the first and second.

Perhaps because so much of it depends on ourselves, it does require that we look at our balance, rhythm and strength. Much of this focus I'm sure some people would look at as tree-hugging hippy stuff lol. Ultimately however, how can we ask a horse to respect and react to minor weight aids if we do not have perfect fluid balance and core stability?

This I think is the key to the success of the NH movement. It makes average people feel like they can solve problems with their horses and make them safer. And in many respects it does.

However the highest level of horsemanship is all about commitment in the moment, presence of character, honesty, consistency, feel and the ability to fluidly interpret and react to the point of almost pre-empting the horse, but always working with what they offer. That is a journey we have to embark on and discover ourselves. It is not something you can't easily teach. It is also a journey thats unique to each person, as unique as their personality.

Btw I watched your shoulder yielding video. Very interesting (in a positive way), enjoyed it, be good to see some more


----------



## Northern

Bill Dorrance, one of the grand-dads of nh, said that you cannot teach "feel", yet that "feel" is really all that a horse has to go on. (agreeing with you, Doe,about feel being paramount but unteachable).

Feel must be discovered by the individual, within the framework of safety techniques & appropriate tools. This is why KFH says that not everyone should be in horses; not everyone wants to/can develop the good feel for the horse, because true horsemanship is an arduous character-development that takes a lot of time (Bill always said that if you don't have oodles of time, forget about it!).

I disagree with PNH _guaranteeing _that if you follow the step-by-step program, you'll have success with horses, precisely because of this mysterious crucial sine qua non (without which nothing), "feel" that cannot be bought, like the levels packs & tools.

I've said this a lot on here, but it's always worth repeating.


----------



## To ride the sky

I started a thread on Klaus the other day  He is my hero! I'm not surprised to see all these opposing comments to his method as alot of people feel threatened by his amazing ability and watching what he can do with a horse in a matter of minutes is simply highlights the inefficiency of thier own ability with horses. When people spend years, thousands of dollars on training, and use all kinds of 'reinforcements' ie draw reins, side reins, double bits, spurs, etc... in efforts to achieve proper collection and balance and still haven't got there and witness what Klaus can do at liberty or with completely loose reins they understandably feel disheartened. I therefore am not upset by Spyder's comments and attempts to make a degrating generalization about horseman (people) who preffer to use as natural method as possible when training their horse. If that makes them feel less inept then all the power to them 

Klaus along with Jean Francois Pignon are simply in tune with the true essence of the horse something that they have accomplished by letting go of our human obession with control, narcisism, gadgets, exuses, dependence on others for self assurance/esteem, etc...Something that is apparently impossible for some of us 

In reality Klaus has worked with a myriad of horse breeds and while he happens to feature more of a certain type of horse in his books and videos does not imply that his abilities are limited to said type. I would think this would be implicitly obvious but aparenly not for some people 

His books are wonderful! He is correct when he says that you will see a difference right away! Upon using his method with my mare I saw an immediate marked difference in her attitude and self carriage. She used to rear, bite, roll under saddle, push into your space and be stressed and tense (when I got her) but now her spirit has come back her eyes are bright again she is willing, supple, confident, relaxed, I could go on and on really. Everyone has their own path but personally I preffer to have my horses genuine attention and willingness when Im asking soemthing of them rather than achieving feigned compliance with force and intimidation.

Our horses are not robots they have hearts minds and SOULS! We need to remember this and encourage and inspire our horses in all our interactions with them.

I may be a tree hugger although I have never actually hugged a tree in my life (curious why I would be assigned this name) but I completely endorse his method and material it has been an invaluable resource for many people and their horses!


----------



## tinyliny

To ride the sky said:


> I started a thread on Klaus the other day  He is my hero! I'm not surprised to see all these opposing comments to his method as alot of people feel threatened by his amazing ability and watching what he can do with a horse in a matter of minutes is simply highlights the inefficiency of thier own ability with horses. When people spend years, thousands of dollars on training, and use all kinds of 'reinforcements' ie draw reins, side reins, double bits, spurs, etc... in efforts to achieve proper collection and balance and still haven't got there and witness what Klaus can do at liberty or with completely loose reins they understandably feel disheartened. I therefore am not upset by Spyder's comments and attempts to make a degrating generalization about horseman (people) who preffer to use as natural method as possible when training their horse. If that makes them feel less inept then all the power to them
> 
> Klaus along with Jean Francois Pignon are simply in tune with the true essence of the horse something that they have accomplished by letting go of our human obession with control, narcisism, gadgets, exuses, dependence on others for self assurance/esteem, etc...Something that is apparently impossible for some of us
> 
> In reality Klaus has worked with a myriad of horse breeds and while he happens to feature more of a certain type of horse in his books and videos does not imply that his abilities are limited to said type. I would think this would be implicitly obvious but aparenly not for some people
> 
> His books are wonderful! He is correct when he says that you will see a difference right away! Upon using his method with my mare I saw an immediate marked difference in her attitude and self carriage. She used to rear, bite, roll under saddle, push into your space and be stressed and tense (when I got her) but now her spirit has come back her eyes are bright again she is willing, supple, confident, relaxed, I could go on and on really. Everyone has their own path but personally I preffer to have my horses genuine attention and willingness when Im asking soemthing of them rather than achieving feigned compliance with force and intimidation.
> 
> Our horses are not robots they have hearts minds and SOULS! We need to remember this and encourage and inspire our horses in all our interactions with them.
> 
> I may be a tree hugger although I have never actually hugged a tree in my life (curious why I would be assigned this name) but I completely endorse his method and material it has been an invaluable resource for many people and their horses!


 

I don;t "dis" KFH at all, I just say that he does not really do well at making his "method" comprehensible. In fact , what he does that is irritating is make videos that are supposed to be instructional but are really nothing more than self aggrandizement , with slow mo , poetry and new age music. Pignon does that , too, but at least he doesn't style his videos as instructional; they are for entertainment and he presents them as such.


----------



## Spyder

To ride the sky said:


> I therefore am not upset by Spyder's comments and attempts to make a degrating generalization about horseman (people) who preffer to use as natural method as possible when training their horse. If that makes them feel less inept then all the power to them


Too bad you were not able to read correctly.

I have not degraded anyone but simply said that 

1-- Every person I have seen that are hailed as being so great to work in a _natural way_ all work with one breed/type of horse that most with any technical skill can master. The Iberian horse is built for this type of work so to show what is in those videos simply does not impress me.
2--I know of several that do exactly as Klaus can do and be able to TEACH it, one of which is the one that taught me, and he could get on a pony and do what Klaus is showing...and WITHOUT all the restraints you mentioned. Again if anyone is making generalizations it is you.

My point is that Klaus is not special until he can show the ability to work with anything.


----------



## Doe

Tiny - I do see your point. He has not released a DVD instructional box set yet unlike most trainers. His early DVD was designed to provide a physical image to go along with the first book so does not stand on it's own. In that sense it is a demo and not designed for instruction. As Northern said, this style of work is inherently dangerous. Can you imagine if the same PP type beginners tried it with anything less than puppy dog bred horses?

Spyder - if you look on You Tube there are many examples with non Iberian breeds. Im in a rush for work now, but if you cant find them I'll happily post tonight. Secondly i really don't see your issue with the Iberians. I'm not so much interested in the collection (though look at the transition in shape and musculature of the horses he works with - they did not come to him naturally collecting) but more the fact that he has control of these horses AND maintains their spirit. THAT is something that I do NOT see commonly.

If this is something that is so easy to do and you have been taught this by your mentor, then all kudos to the two of you.

I would love to see a video of either of you in action? You could post it here that would be great, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.

I'm not saying that Klaus is the only one who can do this or the worlds best horseman. I am however raising the question that isn't this a better way to work? Isn't it something we would all aspire to?

As I travel on my lifelong journey to be a better horseman I find less and less great horse people and more and more with tricks and methods. Few can maintain the spirit of the horse because they fear it and label everything as disrespect. If they fear it then it is a lack of understanding, and a lack of understanding indicates they are not great horsemen. As does a closed mind.

As I say a video would be great Spyder, I am happy to learn.


----------



## Chiilaa

Not my cup of tea. Sure, he's good. Maybe even great. But I prefer a bridle for me. I see it this way - he and his horse are speaking Spanish, in a world where everyone else speaks English. It doesn't mean it is wrong for them to speak it, but no one else can step into the conversation. I can, in theory, get onto any well trained horse in a single discipline and be able to ride it, because we all talk the same way. Could he get onto a GP dressage horse and replicate it? Probably not - he is speaking Spanish, the horse is speaking English, and they end up making rude gestures at each other instead of saying hi.


----------



## CecilliaB

The last video that shows "The Dance" seems just like join up to me. You speak body language and give the horse a chance to understand in a non threatening manner and set yourself as the leader. We all know that ground work translates directly to their backs. If a horse trusts and understands you on the ground your leaps ahead when getting on their backs.

I am just not personally a fan of the whole bitless trend. I am all for the promotion of kind and understanding training but I think what he does as basic ground work. Anything done with repetition can be trained so the bridleless part doesn't have much shock and awe for me.


----------



## Annnie31

I think that people like Stacey Westfall and Clinton Anderson are not unlike him. He may say he doesnt want to be associated with natural horsemanship but his methods are not unlike theres (subtle cues) with legs, hands, objects, (such as the lunge whip and the lunge line). I like what he does, just cant see the difference if that makes sense. Also yes he wrote a book after 2 years of horses which is wonderful but does anyone truly know all there is to know about the psychi of horses after 2 years? I know after 2 years I sure wouldnt have wanted to attempt anything like that so cudos to him for that. After 30 years I am still on a quest to find out more. Im going to look for videos of him with other horses to see If I can see a difference but to date I dont see a difference.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

It is always funny...in these threads if someone says something/anything against the NH trainer, the NH people instantly go into the insults about how that person just likes to be cruel and such thing.

Spyder makes some good points.

Being able to train one specific breed of horse to do a certain thing (in a manner that you can not explain to others even) does not make one a great trainer.

A great trainer can get those similar good results with a horse who is not naturally gifted in that area.


----------



## Spyder

Here is a true "master".


About Jean-Paul — Professeur Dressage


----------



## Doe

Chiilaa said:


> Not my cup of tea. Sure, he's good. Maybe even great. But I prefer a bridle for me. I see it this way - he and his horse are speaking Spanish, in a world where everyone else speaks English. It doesn't mean it is wrong for them to speak it, but no one else can step into the conversation. I can, in theory, get onto any well trained horse in a single discipline and be able to ride it, because we all talk the same way. Could he get onto a GP dressage horse and replicate it? Probably not - he is speaking Spanish, the horse is speaking English, and they end up making rude gestures at each other instead of saying hi.


Glad to see some discussion, thank you. I will deal with each post in turn as they all deserve a response.

Chiilaa, thats an interesting analogy and I do see where you are coming from. However that is the difference between training and language. The belief is that the true weight aids are much easier for a horse to understand as they work with their balance etc wheras many cues taught to horses actually interfere with their ability to do what it is we are asking of them. For example in reining I have seen many people lean back, and/or use their feet in front of the girth for a backup. Wheras a simple shift of weight forwards not backwards will position horses to backup, and amazingly they will respond if they are allowed to work it out and think outside of their conditioning.

In terms of the bridle it is simply the reverse. The finished horse can use a bridle, however not beginning with the bit or bridle means that we cannot rely on the reins and so weight cues are the only way to go. Modern day horseriding tends to work the opposite, teach kids in a snaffle and then if and when they advance, one day they might try to install the weight cues which becomes a lot harder.


----------



## Doe

CecilliaB said:


> The last video that shows "The Dance" seems just like join up to me. You speak body language and give the horse a chance to understand in a non threatening manner and set yourself as the leader. We all know that ground work translates directly to their backs. If a horse trusts and understands you on the ground your leaps ahead when getting on their backs.
> 
> I am just not personally a fan of the whole bitless trend. I am all for the promotion of kind and understanding training but I think what he does as basic ground work. Anything done with repetition can be trained so the bridleless part doesn't have much shock and awe for me.


Cecillia this and 'join up' are not even similar.

A little history if I may. The Picadero is literally 'a small room' and it square which is very important. It seems that the round pen came from the Picadero when horses were broken on a large scale and those lacking in the necessary skills to do it properly thought it would save time if there were no corners for the horse to escape to.

It is important that it is square for several reasons. Firstly it means the horse does not track a circle. If you look at the tracks its actually more like an oval racetrack. This means that the horse straightens and flexes, straightens and flexes, so it improves his suppling at each corner.

Secondly the horse is not just flung to the outside with centrifugal force and learns to correct his balance.

No in terms of the differences with join up. Join Up in my humble opinion has little to do with communication. Monty talks about representing a mare sending out a naughty colt but then goes on to talk of equus and howhe believes the outheld hand represents a predators claw etc. This latter is actually the truth. 

When you watch horses sent out in the round pen, they are fleeing, except they cannot escape. They are on the forehand, heads usually thrown and bodies even bent to the outside as they want to escape, but they cannot. Aggressive gestures are made to send them out there until the horse gives up. 

It doesnt want to communicate, it just wants to escape. If it can no longer escape then it has no choice but to attack or surrender. fortunately for us most horses choose surrender. This is why it doesn't work with truly dominant horses (of which contrary to many peoples belief based on their own experiences there are very few). When you get a horse that wont surrender then you have trouble. Even Chris Irwin admits this in his book Dealing with Your Dark Horse. He recollects the time he and a mare at a show ended up in physical charges and beating in the round pen because she would not submit.

Yes I have seen a mare exclude a gelding from a herd. However that is very different. Firstly the excluded horse wants to come back in. Secondly it can leave and escape if it wants to. Thirdly it is not constantly driven. The only driving comes if it tries to perhaps go around to another side of the herd and get in there. Fourthly it is being sent by a mare and not being chased by a predator.

Join up is not the best start with a horse, however its not the end of the world. What really concerns me with join up is when its done almost routinely, like a dominance top-up. I see it time and again. The horse stops following people so they take it in the round pen. Meantime any relationship you have established is now being eroded because the horse has no concept of why this is being done. This unpredictable human who just decides to suddenly chase me around a pen?

Finally there is little communication development. Its purely dominance. I scare you and make you expend energy. Its uncomfortable isn't it? Ok well now you can come and follow me - thats more attractive to you than running around isnt it? That doesnt open communication.

In the picadero the idea is not to chase the horse. It is not to get them to ask to come in. It is to establish the beginnings of communication. To teach the horse to follow your changes in posture and movements of weight, and mimic these with his body. Also you have to work with what the horse offers.

Any establishing of dominance (except for a genuinely attacking horse) is actually done via leading exercises.

Finally these things are not based on repetition in the way that negative reinforcement training requires. In general circles riding bridless is considered fairly advanced. With KFH it comes in very early because its about weight cues as the basis of advanced riding exercises. 

Totally agree with you about the groundwork moving you streets ahead when you transition to ridden. Wish more people took the time.


----------



## Chiilaa

Doe said:


> In terms of the bridle .... teach kids in a snaffle and then if and when they advance, one day they might try to install the weight cues which becomes a lot harder.


Blame the riders and trainers, not the inanimate piece of metal?


----------



## Doe

Annnie31 said:


> I think that people like Stacey Westfall and Clinton Anderson are not unlike him. He may say he doesnt want to be associated with natural horsemanship but his methods are not unlike theres (subtle cues) with legs, hands, objects, (such as the lunge whip and the lunge line). I like what he does, just cant see the difference if that makes sense. Also yes he wrote a book after 2 years of horses which is wonderful but does anyone truly know all there is to know about the psychi of horses after 2 years? I know after 2 years I sure wouldnt have wanted to attempt anything like that so cudos to him for that. After 30 years I am still on a quest to find out more. Im going to look for videos of him with other horses to see If I can see a difference but to date I dont see a difference.


Annie thats fair enough, but there is a huge difference. I have tried to explain the basis of CA's methods in a post (PP and CA) in the NH sub section. Those methods work on a basis of control by training via repetition using negative reinforcement. The lunge whip never touches the horse. That can't be said about CA's stick.

In terms of the 2 years thats a very valid point. I don't nor does he confess to know everything. It is just a different way. However it is interesting that sometimes not having prior experience is better. You are not subject to the status quo. Acceptance that things are done a certain way. This is why children are often better at seeing things and building relationships with horses than adults.

I have had to work with horses to shake off my blocks, but with dogs (which I worked with heavily for many years) I never had to 'learn' anything. That doesn't mean I didnt learn, I learned continually. However I just always knew what a dog was really asking. Why it did things, and how to get a large group to follow without leads or punishment.

The horrible thing is, im not as good now as I was then. I was asked to work with some difficult dogs in Australia in April that had had all sorts of trainers on them. Yes I got 'results' instantly which impressed the owners, but I knew in my heart that I had not gotten the real link that I am used to getting. Not having worked with dogs for a while perhaps its just practice, or perhaps i've lost the how.


----------



## Doe

Chiilaa said:


> Blame the riders and trainers, not the inanimate piece of metal?


True, and I have nothing against bits if used correctly. Unfortunately we seem to have forgotten how, or maybe made a conscious choice not to. Humans are by nature generally lazy I would suggest. Always looking for the easy way out. 

Incidentally just responding to the comments about not being able to teach others. I understand that his methods are difficult to teach via a book. My post is about his horesemanship not his ability to pass it on. A horseman and a trainer/teacher are two different beasts.

Coming back to the dogs situation, I can tell people, I can show them what to do, but they can't necessarily do it. Thats because its about feel, timing and presence. The dog reads the strength and the determination, the absoluteness inside you. No amount of shouting or stamping will replicate that. 

This is no different. Much of what is required to do this type of work is mental. Its an attitude and a state. You cannot teach it by a book or break it down into steps alone. However in fairness he can and does teach it on his farm. That way he can observe the student and show them what they need to learn. Often that is their own body awareness more than technique as ultimately this is what the horse is reacting to.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Lol chiilaa.

One other hole in the argument is the collection bit. A horse cannot, physically, just magically "collect". Saying this is like saying you can make me into a ballerina in half an hour, it ain't happening.
When horses are moving in collection they are using over 80% of their muscle mass, this requires strength of those muscles, respiratory and pulmonary fitness and conditioned tendons, ligaments and bones. Development of the fitness and strength required for true collection is what takes years and can become uncomfortable for the horse. The end result of actually putting in the work is a far cry from the leg flinging, chin tucking, out behind, impure gaited thing these horses are doing. Regardless of breed it is incorrect and actually damaging to the horses body.
Same thing would happen were someone to pretend ballet every day without proper conditioning. They would break down very quickly, even of the work were only for minutes a day. (which is another thing I don't understand, it takes 15 minutes for a warm up and these horses are flinging legs and rearing in that time? This guy is asking for soundness issues and I can only imagine the discarded horses sitting in his pasture.)
Life is NOT an exhibition and correct training and its principles have been laid out for centuries for a reason. Some people just fail to see the reason and are backed off by the work required and blame it on perceived 'abuse' which is not evident in correct methods. Again, "blame the riders and trainers, not the inanimate piece of metal."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doe

Spyder said:


> Here is a true "master".
> 
> 
> About Jean-Paul — Professeur Dressage


I am sure he is an excellent rider,beyond a standard I may never reach myself, though unfortunately there is no video there to watch. 

I would still look at a photo like that and see a lot of rein contact however. The study we are discussing in this thread is how to prepare a horse to perform such haute ecole exercises on a 'loose rein'.

Admittedly I am only seeing one photo. One snapshot in time.


----------



## Doe

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Lol chiilaa.
> 
> One other hole in the argument is the collection bit. A horse cannot, physically, just magically "collect". Saying this is like saying you can make me into a ballerina in half an hour, it ain't happening.
> When horses are moving in collection they are using over 80% of their muscle mass, this requires strength of those muscles, respiratory and pulmonary fitness and conditioned tendons, ligaments and bones. Development of the fitness and strength required for true collection is what takes years and can become uncomfortable for the horse. The end result of actually putting in the work is a far cry from the leg flinging, chin tucking, out behind, impure gaited thing these horses are doing. Regardless of breed it is incorrect and actually damaging to the horses body.
> Same thing would happen were someone to pretend ballet every day without proper conditioning. They would break down very quickly, even of the work were only for minutes a day. (which is another thing I don't understand, it takes 15 minutes for a warm up and these horses are flinging legs and rearing in that time? This guy is asking for soundness issues and I can only imagine the discarded horses sitting in his pasture.)
> Life is NOT an exhibition and correct training and its principles have been laid out for centuries for a reason. Some people just fail to see the reason and are backed off by the work required and blame it on perceived 'abuse' which is not evident in correct methods. Again, "blame the riders and trainers, not the inanimate piece of metal."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel

I agree with your sentiment. It used to take 9-12 years to achieve the highest levels of dressage. Now pro's are pushing for 6 years when the back has only just set. That is the problem. It is the illusion of collection and hence the hdeous mess fo Rollkur. Traditionally a horse was schooled from the ground first. Now much of it is done from their back.

Even great masters within the sport are asking for a return to the old values. To see and end to Rollkur. To see a return to ground work, and a broadening of the horses experience as many are losing balance because of their specialisation, having not normal ridden foundation.

Firstly this does not happen overnight. His latest book has a run of pictures of one of his horses development over 15 years. Secondly the difference is the demand. In dressage horses are demanded to perform a series of movements as we want them, when we want them. That does indeed create different stresses. Time and again I see horses who cannot collect without the bit. It has become a 5th leg, a crutch. Their muscles are not strong enough without it and they fall over themselves.

However what we are working with here is what a horse offers. We are asking the horse to express itself, just as they would in the field.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Oh k so you work the horse for 5 minutes a day and where in there is there any fitness training or muscle building?

And you people always bring up rolkur. You do realize 'classical' dressage invented rolkur right? and that its been around far longer than a.v.g. right?

Have you every been to a dressage training barn? Or your just quoting hearsay on the methods largely used by the dressage population? No groundwork? Ha I would love for you to tell that to my coach just to hear her correct you. And what's this mumbo jumbo about over specialization? The number one thing PREACHED by FEI riders is variety in the work. You know the dressage stallion Briar? He was schooled almost exclusively in the fields and forests around natural obstacles.

And about the timeframe of a dressage horse. As has been demonstrated by your lovely videos, the horses now are bred for the sport, especially those at the top. It is boring for them to drag along through the levels and so they learn more quickly and conditioning and strength is always what is being schooled, not the movements. Previously the movements were really schooled to maintain them. Now for me a typical training ride on my marginally gifted dressage horse consists of conditioning and strengthening through transitions and correct schooling. I rarely do the pirouettes, the tempis, or the true extended gaits at home as these are tricks, and performing them does not make him a dressage horse.

What the horse in the video shows are tricks and based on what I've read and your descriptions and arguments that is about the amount of understanding that goes into the training of these horses as well. 

Eta when my horse wants to express himself in the field, he has a field with good footing in which to do so. "natural" piaffe, passage, levade, etc performed in the field are rarely correct and again, mere exhibition tricks when schooled in that fashion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doe

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Oh k so you work the horse for 5 minutes a day and where in there is there any fitness training or muscle building?
> 
> And you people always bring up rolkur. You do realize 'classical' dressage invented rolkur right? and that its been around far longer than a.v.g. right?
> 
> Have you every been to a dressage training barn? Or your just quoting hearsay on the methods largely used by the dressage population? No groundwork? Ha I would love for you to tell that to my coach just to hear her correct you. And what's this mumbo jumbo about over specialization? The number one thing PREACHED by FEI riders is variety in the work. You know the dressage stallion Briar? He was schooled almost exclusively in the fields and forests around natural obstacles.
> 
> And about the timeframe of a dressage horse. As has been demonstrated by your lovely videos, the horses now are bred for the sport, especially those at the top. It is boring for them to drag along through the levels and so they learn more quickly and conditioning and strength is always what is being schooled, not the movements. Previously the movements were really schooled to maintain them. Now for me a typical training ride on my marginally gifted dressage horse consists of conditioning and strengthening through transitions and correct schooling. I rarely do the pirouettes, the tempis, or the true extended gaits at home as these are tricks, and performing them does not make him a dressage horse.
> 
> What the horse in the video shows are tricks and based on what I've read and your descriptions and arguments that is about the amount of understanding that goes into the training of these horses as well.
> 
> Eta when my horse wants to express himself in the field, he has a field with good footing in which to do so. "natural" piaffe, passage, levade, etc performed in the field are rarely correct and again, mere exhibition tricks when schooled in that fashion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel

I am inviting discussion, not insults. I am not sure what you mean by 'you people' but please leave your prejudices or battles at the door. 

You know nothing about me, nor I you. I however am willing not to make assumptions about you. I base my beliefs and opinions on what I have observed and experienced as do you. I do not claim my 'way' or methods are either the most correct, or the only way. I remain open minded and accept that I do not know what I do not know.I have exposed myself to observation or function of every form of horse handling and schooling I have been privelaged to have an opportunity to experience. From Iceland, through the US to Peru and Argentina.

Yes I spent two years on a 'dressage' yard in the Uk and have visited several others in the UK and Dubai. They were very pretty with expensive horseboxes and impeccable driveways. I do not know what you or your trainer do or don't do, nor do I surmise so there is no need to be defensive. However I know what I have observed on these yards, and that is also from a perspective of bodywork also.

These are horses that are ready to kill their riders. That require two handlers and a chifney to lead to the arena. Horses that literally fall over if asked to circle without some sort of support.

Your experience may be different and if so I am pleased that it is,but I can only base my views on what I have seen.

As for strength and fitness, that depends upon your school of thought. Much like in humans we can have the bodybuilding school, and the aerobic training. As an alternative we have yoga and similar. Both have different types of strength and different levels of balance, endurance and flexibility. Passive vs active, slow twitch, fast twitch etc.

When I taught Aikido I also trained in Arts such as Pentjak Silat and Escrima. When boxing weight training helped me, with the Malasian arts it made me less effective.

Incidentally we are focussing on the dressage style movements but that is not the core. The control of the horse is, and as I mentioned above this is so lacking in the general sporting community as I have experienced it. KFH is a man who can read a horse and interact with it immediately, without fear or intimidation, no matter the breed in a way that I have not seen demonstrated by many others as yet. That I cannot take away from him. There may (will) be others, but I have not yet met them.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Anebel, I too find it amusing that one would think dressage people do no ground work.

When I have boarded at a multi-use barn it is the dressage people who are always in the way, doing their ground work.


----------



## PerchiesKisses

I have the book Dancing With Horses, I picked it up in the Used Book section of Greenhawk. I found it to be very insightful, and I loved watching him work with horses. 

While I've never believed in completely ditching my own working way with horses for someone else's, I can say that there are some good pieces to take away from his work that can be aplied to the "average person" ... although I agree with the above post that stated he has some very natural God-given talent that is not the easiest to teach to others.

A couple things that really stood out for me about his training techniques were the importance of the loose lines and how every horse has a natural distance that they are comfortable in that you can work with, and the way he gets the horse to follow his movements in step with him. 

I worked with a QHx mare who was deathly afraid of llamas... she wanted nothing to do with them. I had just finished doing some more in depth research into Hempfling's techniques and figured I'd try his method to get her past the llama pen in a calm collected manner. So we worked on a lunge line so that she had plenty of space and I would walk by the pen, with her literally in the opposite ditch from me. But she kept step. We walked back in forth, and each time we passed she would come closer to me, and relax just a little bit more (I can't say the same for the llama, who insisted on making an **** of himself by standing at the fence and threatening the both of us with a well-aimed loogie).

Eventually she dropped her head and walked beside me like spitting llamas were an everyday occurance. And what I really found interesting was when I looked at the photos a friend took of the eventful training session, she was in perfect step with me. Exactly how Hempfling suggested a horse should be when they are at peace with your leadership.

beginning of our session:









midway through:









end of the session:









The culprit!:


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

There are others. At any dressage barn that is training correctly. I'm sorry you experienced (for a whopping 2 years) a bad trainer but had you kept training and gotten to the point where coaching from the worlds top riders is viable you would see that there is a path and a correct way and dressage is not abuse. I only wish the same for this guy.

And when I say dressage barn I don't mean a place where people ride dressage, I mean a place where dressage is a way of life and a commitment. The top dressage horses I know are far from rank and are very normal. My Rmt always remarks how even my horse is and rarely adjusts anything. Dressage is for the horse and the goal is always and has always been a happy, healthy athlete.


It is a huge pet peeve of mine for people who have not experienced dressage to go and talk about it like they know its all evil and harsh. Hence the prickly demeanor. I have no issues if this guy want to go rope waggling at his horses, but do not call it collection or dressage or better than dressage. It's exhibition tricks, that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doe

That's really great to see perchies, thanks for the photos. How do llamas get so **** good at aiming those loogies??


----------



## PerchiesKisses

Doe said:


> How do llamas get so **** good at aiming those loogies??


You got me! and Taz (that particular llama) will go to great lengths to scare the living daylights out of a horse. The dang thing will literally screech at the horses if they aren't running away from him by his being in there mere presense. 

I don't think that the lessons taught by Hempfling should be exclusive to dressage horses either. Every horse should learn - to the best of his given ability - balance, collection and the art of 'dancing'. Granted an Andalusion horse trained for dressage will look a lot better than say my QH-mutt, but it doesn't make the lessons any less relevant. And it certainly is a lot of fun to have a horse keeping step with you when she is truly at liberty just because she wants to.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> There are others. At any dressage barn that is training correctly. I'm sorry you experienced (for a whopping 2 years) a bad trainer but had you kept training and gotten to the point where coaching from the worlds top riders is viable you would see that there is a path and a correct way and dressage is not abuse. I only wish the same for this guy.
> 
> And when I say dressage barn I don't mean a place where people ride dressage, I mean a place where dressage is a way of life and a commitment. The top dressage horses I know are far from rank and are very normal. My Rmt always remarks how even my horse is and rarely adjusts anything. Dressage is for the horse and the goal is always and has always been a happy, healthy athlete.
> 
> 
> It is a huge pet peeve of mine for people who have not experienced dressage to go and talk about it like they know its all evil and harsh. Hence the prickly demeanor. I have no issues if this guy want to go rope waggling at his horses, but do not call it collection or dressage or better than dressage. It's exhibition tricks, that's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sorry just re posting, note the last paragraph please! (perchies)

This guy is not doing dressage, nor are the horses collected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doe

Perchies, Anebel

Perhaps I have done Klaus and injustice by trying to explain his work which is so deep, in summary, and have lacked clarity in doing so.

Perchies I totally agree, all horses would benefit from such things as would all the humans too.

Anebel. This is not dressage, nor is it intended to be. Klaus is very clear on that. His style is very much based on that of the Caballero. (including his prefence for saddle position) The caballero's aim was to ride so lightly that it was almost by 'transmission of their thoughts'. Hence the loose rein.

Klaus does not train in an arena. He describes it as 'assembly, expression, balance - riding as a holistic experience.' "authentic, natural handling of horses has never been a kind of sporting skill, but primarily a mental exercise whose aim is a form of spiritual meeting or encounter."

Perchies as you say all horses could benefit from such understanding. Of the horses I have been asked to help, some have been abuse, one was even the result of being set on fire and left in a ditch for dead (police riot horse). The vast majority however are the result of the sporting industry in one form or another. Motivation purely money and ego. Not the development or well being of the horse which is just a vehicle, an asset as long as it has some monetary value, to be written off when it does not. As per any business. That is not to say everyone is like that, but it is what the professionals represent.

Now some will accuse me of being a PETA tree hugger again, and yes I do make a living collecting the fallen tears of pixie tailed fairies in the enchanted 
woods to sell to the hippies in my commune........ :wink:

However I love horses. They show me how to be a better person, and they constantly challenge me to improve myself. All I want for them is to allow them to keep their respect and their dignity and their spirit and It is only man that ever takes this away.


----------



## PerchiesKisses

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> This guy is not doing dressage, nor are the horses collected.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My understanding of Dressage has been that the underlining priciples of the art is to have the horse moving off the slightest cues. To look as if it is dancing of its own accord while the rider appears to be doing almost nothing. The movements themselves will vary from style to style, but the truly great horses - and the ones that are most appealing to watch (for me) - are the ones who are under the least restraints possible and seem to be enjoying the difficult maneuvers they are performing. 

Under my understanding of dressage, Hempfling does do a version of it.

Not every horse who practices dressage needs to be aiming for Olympic levels. I admire Hempfling for what he has accomplished, and if you get a chance pick up the book "Dancing with Horses" he shows a horse progressing from having relatively no muscle control to becoming stronger and more engaged - and yes the horse starts collecting on its own. 

It is not good to be so closed-minded about any form of horsemanship. You don't have to agree, you don't have to practice it, but do you not see the beauty of a horse moving like these horses are at complete liberty?

Appreciate at least the talent to communicate with so little a maneuver so grand, if you cannot bring yourself to admire it then that is fine.


----------



## Doe

One thing that I have not really mentioned and am remiss in failing to do so is the central thread of Klaus' philosophy. Again I might be misrepresenting this so please read his book(s) and interpret for yourself, but ultimately his point is that the way we handle horses is a reflection of the state of society in general and the way the world is heading.

Illusion versus Authenticity. Speed vs Time. Even the use of the stick or whip - Pressure vs Stimulus.

Whatever the state of our horse it is a reflection of ourselves. That is something many people would rather not admit.

The approach is everything and it is reflected in a culture that is lost in so many ways. But that's a conversation for whiskey night!


----------



## PerchiesKisses

Hmmm I think a whiskey night may be called for right about now! XD ... I'll bring some marshmallows for the fire


----------



## Northern

Anebel, it boils down to what was said at the start: Does your horse WANT TO be your partner, or have you turned him into a slave, who'd better "get it done", if he wants to avoid ever-increasing discomfort?

Does your horse OFFER you anything, because he's enjoying the creative partnership, or does he only comply, because he'd "better!"?

That's really it. That's what Xenophon said, that's what all of the masters down through the centuries have said, that's what the Dorrance brothers said in the last generation, & that's what KFH says in this generation.

Thanks again, Doe, for clarifying words on KFH. The picadero is so obviously superior to the round pen, for the horse's wellbeing, for one thing.


----------



## To ride the sky

Doe said:


> Whatever the state of our horse it is a reflection of ourselves. That is something many people would rather not admit.


This is the exact reason why so many people reject this right away because as I said it highlights their lack of natural ability or lack of desire to preserve the inherant spirit of the horse and put the bond with the horse first ahead of all 'training'.


----------



## Annnie31

Doe...I think what he is doing is wonderful. 
And although I have not done dressage I love that discipline also as the riders must be in harmony with their horses to be truly successful teachers. 
It is good to be passionate about something, it brings out the best in all of us.


----------



## Saddlebag

I'm going to jump in here. Before I very recently heard of Klaus Hempfling, I'd been researching Carolyn Resnick and how she works with horses. I have one that had me completely buffaloed. Either he was rock hard tense showing the whites of his eyes or zoned out and dozey eyed. I'm patient with horses and never afraid but I couldn't get this horse to trust, not just me, anyone. I began by doing my groundwork at liberty. No halter and the gate was open so he could leave at any time. We basically said hello and I'd walk away, many times. If he chose not to come, I'd walk away. This began to pique his interest. In time he became less timid in his approach realizing I was asking nothing of him. My only goal was that he not zone out and scare himself when he returned to reality. It wasn't long before he was greeting me at the gate. I cut a thin willow and before long he'd circle me, back, come forward and sidepass while I was in front of him. The feeling was like conducting an orchestra. After about a month I was grooming him in the field. I'd taken the halter and he tried to put his nose in it. As I reached to do up the poll strap he lowered his head, making it easy. His head used to reach for the moon. I removed the halter and began brushing him. I then stepped to his face and rubbed both cheeks (his). He began head bobbing so I stepped back a couple of steps and he also began licking and chewing. I witnessed the tension leave his body, almost with an ethereal quality. He is now a different horse and a very nice one I must add. So we need to search for what works with the individual horse.


----------



## Doe

Saddlebag, that's a great example thank you.

I like Carolyns work too. As you highlighted there are so many ways to avoid 90% of the problems people see in the first place.


----------



## MIEventer

Speaking horse is speaking horse - regardless of what path you take, it all ends at the same destination. 

And to those who keep using the "does the horse want to be your partner" line, is a load of crap. If the horse really does not want to do it - guess what......this may be a big surprise to you, but ah.....it wont. 

I'm going to use Eventing as an example, because that's what I am, what I do and what I've been involved with since "many moons ago". I was Eventing before I knew it was a sport. 

If a horse, does not want to do it, it wont. To Event, you have to have a true partnership with your horse - or you wont get out as clean as you were, when you went in. The horse truley wants to have to to do it, if not, you and the horse, are going to get hurt. 

Why do you think, many Mid to Upper Level Eventers, go through many horses, to find the right one? In order to succeed and get through unscaved, you have to have your "Partner in crime"

Give me a break. 

Same with Dressage - if the horse does not want to do it, it wont. Same with GP Jumpers. Do you think Ian Millar would of ever became who he was, if it wasn't for his mount Big Ben, who had so much spark, and passion for the sport and for his rider? Nope.

*As Ian Millar says, "A good rider, conforms to their horse. A poor rider, makes their horse conform to them"*

You don't need any form NH to accomplish a partnerships with your horse. Speaking horse, is speaking horse.


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

I find his videos very interesting to watch. 

Aside from that, I completely agree with MIEventer. 

In virtually any discipline there has to be some desire & drive on the horse's part not just the rider. For me the biggest example of that is a cutting horse. If that horse has no cow sense or drive, you aren't going to force it into being a top notch cutting horse. The good ones want to. I was just looking at old photos of Poco Dell on cows, you can see in his eyes how much he loved his job. 

My old reining mare was also my speed event horse. If I point her at a set of barrels she will stand quiet, I can feel her fire light inside even being still, all it takes is an almost whispered "Get 'em" and she goes for it with the gusto of a horse 10 years her junior. Why? I didn't make her or have to convince her to, it's because she is an athlete at heart and she loves it. When she's done she walks relaxed, head down, licking & chewing. 

They all have their "thing" just like we do and when you find that thing together, now that's when true partnerships are formed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MIEventer

Great post MH and great examples. Nelson, will have temper tantrums if I don't allow him to jump. He will literally stamp his feet, spin on his haunches, back up at a good speed, refuse to go forward - and all this, if I don't let him jump a fence that he's locked into. 

He's one horse at home, but when I get him to a comp, he's a completely different horse all together. 

I didn't make him this way, he is this way because it's who he is. He is an athlete at heart. I've had Upper Level Eventers tell me that he has "That pop and spark that many upper level riders look for" and "He'd of easily taken a rider to Rolex". 

Don't feed that "do they want to be your partner" garbage - until you've experienced the life wholeheartedly and thoroughly. I have been involved with many Eventing Facilities and Upper Level Riders, who always put the horses first. If the horse doesn't want to do it, they sell it and move onto the next. This continues, until they find "the one".



> They all have their "thing" just like we do and when you find that thing together, now that's when true partnerships are formed.


Well said! I like that very much! I'm going to add this to my list of "quotes".


----------



## bsms

Northern said:


> Anebel, it boils down to what was said at the start: Does your horse WANT TO be your partner, or have you turned him into a slave, who'd better "get it done", if he wants to avoid ever-increasing discomfort?
> 
> Does your horse OFFER you anything, because he's enjoying the creative partnership, or does he only comply, because he'd "better!"?
> 
> That's really it. That's what Xenophon said, that's what all of the masters down through the centuries have said, that's what the Dorrance brothers said in the last generation, & that's what KFH says in this generation.
> 
> Thanks again, Doe, for clarifying words on KFH. The picadero is so obviously superior to the round pen, for the horse's wellbeing, for one thing.


First, there is a balance between wanting to be a partner and willing to be a partner. The willing often has to come before the wanting.

I will use myself as an example. When I started running, there weren't even any running shoes available. The running craze hadn't begun. I started because I was a very fat kid and I wanted to lose weight. I was WILLING to run, but I sure didn't enjoy it. However, with time, conditioning and weight loss, something changed. I started to enjoy running. And with more time (and conditioning and practice), I started to WANT to run.

I have never been and never will be competitive, but within my body's limits, I now love running.

But it wasn't 'natural' to me. I had to learn enough, and lose 50 lbs and get in better shape, and THEN I was capable of loving it.

I have never trained a cutting horse, but I've read about it. I'm told you need a horse with some natural interest. Then you need to condition it and introduce it properly - on small, easy to manage cows - until the horse learns how to control a cow. At that point, many horses will just be willing to cut cattle. But some - and all of the top ones - come to LOVE cutting cattle. One of the first horses I ever rode was on a ranch. Spam didn't like to be ridden...unless there were cattle to work. Then, instead of running away, he would say, "Hurry up and get a saddle on me and let's go!" And when I was on his back, that was all I was doing. It was like riding a Border Collie.

Second, few horses are 'slaves'. If they aren't willing, they won't go. That doesn't mean they are always thrilled to be ridden. But frankly, if I can feed them, clean them, care for them and haul their poop away, then they sure as heck can pay me back with a few hours of riding each week.

And again, with time, they seem to learn that riding isn't bad. But no, I don't believe there is anything natural about a 750 lb Arab whose back isn't conditioned to riding being asked to haul 170 lbs of me + 30 lbs of saddle around. Not at first. But that 750 lb Arabian who was willing to carry me - not in a balanced way, that was also learned - is now living 1.5 miles away. She now weighs close to 900 lbs, and the main problem on trail rides is holding her back.

But neither she nor either of my remaining horses is a slave. Not happening. The Arabian mare I kept is a pain in the rear, but she was 750 lbs when we got her because she refused to submit to some 1200-1500 lb QH & draft mix geldings. During her 3 months at that owner's place, she lost 150 lbs and was still ready to fight the other horses. If a 1500 lb dominant gelding can't make her submit, what chance do I have?

But I can TEACH her that I'm worth submitting to. That is NOT natural to her, yet she is happiest when she does submit. That is because I really DO know more than she does about what she needs and what will make her happy. Yes, I'm smarter than the horse. What a shock! She needs me (or someone smart enough) to help her be a happy, relaxed horse.

But the idea that all riders, or the vast majority, get results by turning horses into slaves is hogwash. In the western riding lessons I started taking recently, one of the exercises is to get the horse to put its leg into a tire. And the main point of the lesson is that you cannot MAKE the horse put its leg into the tire. You have to lead the horse, from its back, to WANT to put its foot there. 

It is a very rare horse that has been beaten into slavery. My pain in the rear mare is the one that got me interested in riding, because she taught me (and is still teaching me) that she has 900 lbs of muscle to back up HER thoughts and feelings, and that I will either work with her or nothing good will happen. I've only ridden a dozen or so horses since I started riding 3 years ago, but all of them have a pretty strong veto on any idea I have.

And no, none of them have been trained by just using their feelings to decide to want to do what I want. You see, in the end, it IS about dominance (or leadership) - getting the horse to do something it doesn't feel like doing at the time. If you can't do that, you are just a sack of potatoes clinging to the horse.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Interesting discussion.

I think Klaus is amazing, myself. I think he doesn't offer instructive video because it's right there in front if us as it is. You can't TEACH what he's doing so much as feel it.

I stumbled across him years ago and was absolutely spell bound by what he can accomplish, in minutes, with a horse that had not been out of his stall in years. I think he was a Breton stallion who had everyone terrified of him. 

I took what I was seeing in the videos, and for kicks, started using the concept of no resistance with my, then, yearling stud colt. It was amazing how well the colt responded to the idea. It gave HIM confidence in himself, and in me... Which really did draw us closer together. He has never been a difficult colt, and I'm not trying to say Klaus is where the buck stops... But I sure wouldn't mind the opportunity to work under him and get the first hand help when I run into a snag, then resort to using restraint and physical "force" again.

I'm not saying using physical touch is wrong, but, I will say the non resistance method really works pretty well in situations I've had old school methods fail. He's not the only horseman to realize this either, nor will he be the last to "discover" it.

I'm honestly surprised to read the comments about the language he speaks... Truthfully, the only language I care about when watching the videos is the one where he speaks to the horse... With his energy. There at TONS of Horse masters who didn't speak english well, (pretty sure Klaus speaks English too) it didn't take away from the "magic" they created with horses.

Horses are essentially energy beings. Everything to them is directly related to the energy surrounding them and being directed at him. It is easiest to see this in their natural environment... If you take the time to really see EVERYTHING going on. We miss so much with our tunnel vision, our constant drive towards "the goal"... Horses take it all in and then process to decide what is important and what isn't. The way they react will be determined by the energies they encounter along the way.

If you've ever seen a herd together you can see the posture similarities in what Klaus does. For instance, I have photos in the photo forum showing dominance without touch.... Effective? Immensely. 

I will use this photo for now, I'm sure I have other examples, some more obvious, some less... And I didn't have my camera to capture the essence of Klaus' method in it's most basic form when our two more mature stallions were reintroduced. This will do.









This is a show of dominance... Without touch. What we see here is a older gelding who has been the dominant horse in this pasture, challenging the newcomer, the palomino, they are actually pushing against each other without touching each other. The winner here is the horse who stops pushing last. (it was the palomino). To me, this is the equine show of what I see when Klaus works with a horse... Especially a borderline demonstration horse.

It's hard to show it in photos because unless the behavior has escalated this is done, regularly throughout the day, in a herd, in much softer tones. 

To finish my novel... I don't know that you cannot link Klaus to natural horsemanship, per say, because what he's done is taken observations from the horse's daily life, and applied it to getting results he wants... Just the dominant horse can move an entire herd without ever needing to strike a blow, Klaus has learned to guide, drive or lead the horse as the situation warrants. This is not exclusive to him either, there are many many talented horse people who do the same... Some compete, some don't, I think that is a personal choice more than something I'd hold against them. I will say there is something a little more classical about the way he does things than what I see in... Say... Parelli horsemanship. (most NA natural horsemen are similar though) not so different than the ways I've seen some of the old, German and Spanish horse masters.


----------



## kevinshorses

All the clips posted seem just like what you see at a circus. I don't see anything terrific and I see very little actual riding. It looks pretty but if he doesn't show how he got there then I question how "natural" it actually was. People do a lot of things when there is nobody looking so that they can gain the aclaim of others. It looks like he has trained his horses to run in circles around him but not actually do anything useful.


----------



## Doe

"Speaking horse is speaking horse - regardless of what path you take, it all ends at the same destination."

No it doesn't. The path you take determines the destination, the end result with the horse. Sure theirs many paths, many different ways to work with the horse, but the one you choose will determine where you end up and what you achieve with that Orwell.

"And to those who keep using the "does the horse want to be your partner" line, is a load of crap. If the horse really does not want to do it - guess what......this may be a big surprise to you, but ah.....it wont."

Man has been making horses do what they want for centuries in one form or another so I'm afraid your argument fails right there. Secondly if man did not need to make horses do things and they only did it if they wanted to, then we would not have the vast inventory of bits, straps, spurs, and every other form of mechanical control, as it wouldn't be needed.


I'm going to use Eventing as an example, because that's what I am, what I do and what I've been involved with since "many moons ago". I was Eventing before I knew it was a sport. 

"Why do you think, many Mid to Upper Level Eventers, go through many horses, to find the right one? In order to succeed and get through unscaved, you have to have your "Partner in crime""

Well that's an interesting questions, why exactly. If all these horses like doing these things and it wasn't destructive on their bodies then why do they go through so many?

In terms of wanting to do something, I am willing to accept that through breeding or whatever, some horses do show an interest in cattle work or even cross country. However Dressage, reining? No that I cannot accept. I have never seen a horse that I believe is enjoying or wanting to do dressage. If that were the case then there would not be the evident tension in their tails, necks, jaws, eyes, so many places. Modern dressage is nothing but fakery. Utter illusion with no substance. Even the riders and their ridiculous fashions. Like the silly hed bobbing. What on earth is that about? The body should be absorbing the motion, frictionlessly coiling and uncoiling as needed to meet with the horse at all times

"*As Ian Millar says, "A good rider, conforms to their horse. A poor rider, makes their horse conform to them"*"

Exactly my point and exactly what they are not doing.


----------



## Doe

kevinshorses said:


> All the clips posted seem just like what you see at a circus. I don't see anything terrific and I see very little actual riding. It looks pretty but if he doesn't show how he got there then I question how "natural" it actually was. People do a lot of things when there is nobody looking so that they can gain the aclaim of others. It looks like he has trained his horses to run in circles around him but not actually do anything useful.


Kevin firstly these horses are not trained to run around him. That isn't the point, this isn't Parelli.

Secondly I can assure you that nothing is done behind the scenes. That would defeat the purpose. The very first moments with a new horse are the most important. They set the scene for everything that follows. That means reading the horse instantly and then acting accordingly. There is no set routine. I have seen I'm work with a variety of horses,literally as they have come off the boat.
In terms of riding look at his first book for that. He rides exceptionally well, in the style of the Caballero hence the classical background.


----------



## Spyder

Doe said:


> However Dressage, reining? No that I cannot accept. I have never seen a horse that I believe is enjoying or wanting to do dressage. If that were the case then there would not be the evident tension in their tails, necks, jaws, eyes, so many places. Modern dressage is nothing but fakery. Utter illusion with no substance. Even the riders and their ridiculous fashions. Like the silly hed bobbing. What on earth is that about? The body should be absorbing the motion, frictionlessly coiling and uncoiling as needed to meet with the horse at all times
> 
> "*As Ian Millar says, "A good rider, conforms to their horse. A poor rider, makes their horse conform to them"*"
> 
> Exactly my point and exactly what they are not doing.


I find it so sad that all your experience is on the negative side.

Too bad you can't see any positives, there are so many terrific bonds that have developed that you obviously missed and refuse to acknowledge exist.

I see NONE of what you describe in this video for example.

Dressage Seldom Seen : Ralph L. Conner : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


----------



## Doe

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> I think Klaus is amazing, myself. I think he doesn't offer instructive video because it's right there in front if us as it is. You can't TEACH what he's doing so much as feel it.
> 
> I stumbled across him years ago and was absolutely spell bound by what he can accomplish, in minutes, with a horse that had not been out of his stall in years. I think he was a Breton stallion who had everyone terrified of him.
> 
> I took what I was seeing in the videos, and for kicks, started using the concept of no resistance with my, then, yearling stud colt. It was amazing how well the colt responded to the idea. It gave HIM confidence in himself, and in me... Which really did draw us closer together. He has never been a difficult colt, and I'm not trying to say Klaus is where the buck stops... But I sure wouldn't mind the opportunity to work under him and get the first hand help when I run into a snag, then resort to using restraint and physical "force" again.
> 
> I'm not saying using physical touch is wrong, but, I will say the non resistance method really works pretty well in situations I've had old school methods fail. He's not the only horseman to realize this either, nor will he be the last to "discover" it.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised to read the comments about the language he speaks... Truthfully, the only language I care about when watching the videos is the one where he speaks to the horse... With his energy. There at TONS of Horse masters who didn't speak english well, (pretty sure Klaus speaks English too) it didn't take away from the "magic" they created with horses.
> 
> Horses are essentially energy beings. Everything to them is directly related to the energy surrounding them and being directed at him. It is easiest to see this in their natural environment... If you take the time to really see EVERYTHING going on. We miss so much with our tunnel vision, our constant drive towards "the goal"... Horses take it all in and then process to decide what is important and what isn't. The way they react will be determined by the energies they encounter along the way.
> 
> If you've ever seen a herd together you can see the posture similarities in what Klaus does. For instance, I have photos in the photo forum showing dominance without touch.... Effective? Immensely.
> 
> I will use this photo for now, I'm sure I have other examples, some more obvious, some less... And I didn't have my camera to capture the essence of Klaus' method in it's most basic form when our two more mature stallions were reintroduced. This will do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a show of dominance... Without touch. What we see here is a older gelding who has been the dominant horse in this pasture, challenging the newcomer, the palomino, they are actually pushing against each other without touching each other. The winner here is the horse who stops pushing last. (it was the palomino). To me, this is the equine show of what I see when Klaus works with a horse... Especially a borderline demonstration horse.
> 
> It's hard to show it in photos because unless the behavior has escalated this is done, regularly throughout the day, in a herd, in much softer tones.
> 
> To finish my novel... I don't know that you cannot link Klaus to natural horsemanship, per say, because what he's done is taken observations from the horse's daily life, and applied it to getting results he wants... Just the dominant horse can move an entire herd without ever needing to strike a blow, Klaus has learned to guide, drive or lead the horse as the situation warrants. This is not exclusive to him either, there are many many talented horse people who do the same... Some compete, some don't, I think that is a personal choice more than something I'd hold against them. I will say there is something a little more classical about the way he does things than what I see in... Say... Parelli horsemanship. (most NA natural horsemen are similar though) not so different than the ways I've seen some of the old, German and Spanish horse masters.


Thank you for that very eloquent post and wonderful photo. That is indeed the principle and a wonderful example.
I hope that some people will drop their defensiveness for a second and try to re-read what I have posted, because the point is being missed completely in some circles.
It is not about pussy footing around the horse, or smothering it with kisses. It is saying that actually being able to meet with a horse mentally, without physical control, is actually MORE powerful than anything you can achieve under physical duress or negative reinforcement training. It is the only way you can truly maintain the spirit of the horse.
Many other forms of horsemanship depends upon fear in one form or another. Monty chases them round a pen. PP and CA threaten the stick and driving them around.

I appreciate some people don't care as long as the horse does what they want. Others are too scared to ride a horse that has any personality at all because personality has become mutated into a new meaning - dangerous, unpredictable, moody. Especially on the US circuit this is becoming more anymore the case. Duller and duller horses, or rather robots. These are the most difficult to work with because they are so submissive just give you nothing to work with. They just don't feel like horses anymore.

Functional. How sad.


----------



## Doe

Spyder said:


> I find it so sad that all your experience is on the negative side.
> 
> Too bad you can't see any positives, there are so many terrific bonds that have developed that you obviously missed and refuse to acknowledge exist.
> 
> I see NONE of what you describe in this video for example.
> 
> Dressage Seldom Seen : Ralph L. Conner : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


In terms of your video I talk of modern dressage. Times are changing rapidly. That video is nearly 25 years old and is a retiring demonstration. Hardly today's FEI competitions. That aside I would be much more accepting of modern dressage if it were even close to that video. (even just the development ages are completely different which supports my point) Unfortunately however it is not. Even some of the old masters amongst the sport have noticed the changes and consider it cruelty it is not just me.


----------



## bsms

Doe said:


> ...It is not about pussy footing around the horse, or smothering it with kisses. It is saying that actually being able to meet with a horse mentally, without physical control, is actually MORE powerful than anything you can achieve under physical duress or negative reinforcement training. It is the only way you can truly maintain the spirit of the horse...
> 
> ...I appreciate some people don't care as long as the horse does what they want. Others are too scared to ride a horse that has any personality at all because personality has become mutated into a new meaning - dangerous, unpredictable, moody. Especially on the US circuit this is becoming more anymore the case. Duller and duller horses, or rather robots...
> 
> Functional. How sad.


I gather you have never worked using a horse. Why did folks in the old days expect a horse to do a job? Because they couldn't afford to keep a horse for a pet. Because they had to work, and expected a horse to work as well.

Sometimes the horse likes its work, as with good cutting horses. Other times, they would rather be lazy. From my heathen perspective, too darn bad! I didn't buy horses for lawn ornaments, nor did I buy them so I could "dance" with them. If I want to dance, I'll grab my wife, not my horse!

Nor do I agree with your idea that horses are dull robots because of how they are being ridden. Apart from my own horses, the horses I ride are lesson horses. They are ridden by different riders daily - but not one is a robot. No, they don't start attacking their riders, but the emphasis on our training in lessons - from a western riding perspective, which isn't exactly known for using rose petals in training - is to learn how to know what is possible, and how to communicate that to the horse in a way that works with the horse to get the desired response. The horse is expected to obey, but the rider is expected to make the horse want to do it right.

I went back and watched the posted videos. I didn't see anything remarkable about them, apart from the fact that he seems to spend more time 'dancing' than riding.

Yes, there are people who abuse horses. My gelding still has a scar on his right side (the left side healed) where he had 2.5" holes spurred though his skin. Getting his trust back after that took time, but my daughter regularly loops the reins around the horn, pulls her feet out of the stirrups and they trot around while she sings Jimmy Buffet songs to him. If that is hard riding, then it is news to Trooper!


----------



## bsms

Doe said:


> ...Many other forms of horsemanship depends upon fear in one form or another. Monty chases them round a pen. PP and CA threaten the stick and driving them around...How sad.


Here is an example with my 10 year old obnoxious mare from 2 weeks ago:

I wanted to teach her to be tied. I have no trees, etc to use, but I do have some posts in the ground near the riding arena I built. So I ran a lunge line around the pole and used my forearm to pull her in a direction that wasn't towards me.

She wasn't willing. She pulled until the lunge line was out, and pulled me across the arena. But I had grabbed a dressage whip (Evil bsms!) and used it to start her running in circles. Every few minutes I gave her the options of walking back with me to that evil spot.

For 30 minutes, she ran. She ran until she was soaked with sweat. Even her face was soaked before she agreed to walk to that evil spot. Then I looped the lunge line over it, and again gave hand pressure - and she gave. End of lesson for that day.

But in the next few lessons, I didn't need to run her at all. She pulled back a few feet, stopped, and then approached the pole. Within a few minutes, she was standing quietly with 6 inches of slack.

Yesterday, she stood with 6" of slack while plastic bags, feed sacks, ropes, etc went all over her. I still haven't actually TIED her there, but we'll get to that soon. She seems to be accepting it as a 'safe place', where she can stand and relax and any bad thing has to go away from her. Which is the idea - to teach her that running (bolting) isn't the only option when afraid.

The running on a lunge line was not abuse. It was to work her until she was willing to try it MY way. As soon as she was, good things happened. The idea is to teach her that doing things my way means good things happen, so she can trust me to handle bad things in the future. It wasn't punishment. It was getting a far more powerful animal than me to TRY trusting me, and to find out that when she does what I ask, she can relax and feel safe - which is pretty much the definition of heaven for most horses.

It isn't about fear, but trust. Learning that yielding makes good things happen. Learning that the two legged creature will make the fear go away if you do what he says. That is NOT a natural thing for a horse to give. Ever. It is a taught response, but one that opens the door for a horse to do many things it WANTS to do.


----------



## Doe

BSMS We see very different things, so what I see as beautiful and something to aspire to you do not. That's fair enough. What is see is someone who can control horses that many other people could not, using ways that few people will ever be able to understand yet actually do.

I appreciate that to you the horse is a work tool. It's there to make money for you. That's your choice and freedom and I would not wish to remove that from you so I'm not quite understanding your point. 

The 'dancing' is important because it is there that the communication is established to allow the transition to ridden, and allow him to do the things he does with them so easily and on a loose rein.

Some people drive up a mountain. They dont care how they get there they just want to get there as fast as possible, no matter the price. The goal is the summit, and when they get there they have nothing to do, nowhere else to go.

Others choose to climb the mountain. Why? Because they can. The journey is as important as the goal and along the way they learn about themselves and those with them. When they get to the top they see another mountain.

I don't know jimmy buffet so I'll have to look him up  anyway again I'm not sure of your point there. Your story about your daughter sounds lovely, I'm not sure of what I am supposed to disagree with in that picture.


----------



## MIEventer

> Speaking horse is speaking horse - regardless of what path you take, it all ends at the same destination."
> 
> No it doesn't. The path you take determines the destination, the end result with the horse. Sure theirs many paths, many different ways to work with the horse, but the one you choose will determine where you end up and what you achieve with that Orwell.


Nope, I disagree and greatly disagree. Speaking horse is speaking horse - there is only 1 language to speak and that is their language, body language. Period. Speaking horse, is speaking horse.



> And to those who keep using the "does the horse want to be your partner" line, is a load of crap. If the horse really does not want to do it - guess what......this may be a big surprise to you, but ah.....it wont."
> 
> Man has been making horses do what they want for centuries in one form or another so I'm afraid your argument fails right there. Secondly if man did not need to make horses do things and they only did it if they wanted to, then we would not have the vast inventory of bits, straps, spurs, and every other form of mechanical control, as it wouldn't be needed.


 
lol, good job contradicting yourself. Get over yourself. Seriously. If the horse doesn't want to do the job, the horse wont. It's as simple as that. I'm afraid your argument fails right there. 



> I'm going to use Eventing as an example, because that's what I am, what I do and what I've been involved with since "many moons ago". I was Eventing before I knew it was a sport.
> 
> "Why do you think, many Mid to Upper Level Eventers, go through many horses, to find the right one? In order to succeed and get through unscaved, you have to have your "Partner in crime""
> 
> Well that's an interesting questions, why exactly. If all these horses like doing these things and it wasn't destructive on their bodies then why do they go through so many?


They go through SO MANY because they have to find the horse who has the pssion to do the sport. It is a dangerous sport sweetie - lets see you ride a full XC course at 3'6" with a horse who doesn't want to do it. Let's see you even attempt a Training Level HT, with a horse who doesn't want to do it.

Any Competator, regardless of what sport...whether it be Reining, Cutting, Barrel Racing, Eventing, Jumping, Hunters, Dressage - has to weed out the horses who just don't have the gumption or the ability to do it - from those who have the want, the drive and the ability to do it. 

Don't turn this around into a discussion about abusiveness on their physicall condition - cause you know very well that is not what we are talking about. You're turning this into a discussion that isn't even on the table. 

*



As Ian Millar says, "A good rider, conforms to their horse. A poor rider, makes their horse conform to them"

Exactly my point and exactly what they are not doing.

Click to expand...

*Ah, and wrong again. Do us all a favor please, and stop forming opinions of sports where you have 0 - little true experience in. Why not become a Working Student for some Top Level Riders, Buck Davidson, Ian Millar, Erik Lamaze, Beezie Madden, David and Karen O'Connor, and the list goes on - and see exactly how they manage and care for their horses and work with their horses on a daily basis. 

How about you actually get real, true experiences under top level equestrians, and then form your opinion. Because as it is - it's quite ignorant. You can go ahead and "dance" with your horse, fly at it. Bit in the meanwhile, don't point your fingers at those Equestrians who choose to compete with their equine companions. 

And, on that thought, HOW DARE YOU assume that many Equestrians, do not meet their horses mentally, do not put their horses well being first, and do not spend a lot of time forming relationships and bonds with their Equestrian Partners. 

Assumptions get us no where. 

Again...if the horse doesn't want to do it. They wont.


----------



## Scoutrider

MIEventer said:


> Speaking horse is speaking horse - regardless of what path you take, it all ends at the same destination.
> 
> *As Ian Millar says, "A good rider, conforms to their horse. A poor rider, makes their horse conform to them"*
> 
> You don't need any form NH to accomplish a partnerships with your horse. Speaking horse, is speaking horse.


Awesome post, MIE, especially these tidbits. Couldn't have been put any better!! 



Doe said:


> Well that's an interesting questions, why exactly. *If all these horses like doing these things* and it wasn't destructive on their bodies then why do they go through so many?


That's the idea, Doe. Not all horses do like the sport that they are in, hence the turnover rate. When the right horse meets the right rider in the right discipline, now, that's where the magic happens. I see it as a testament to those upper level riders that they are willing to take the time to seek out an equine partner as passionate about the discipline (no matter what that might be) as the rider is. 

As far as "destructive on their bodies," proper breeding, riding, and conditioning goes miles to preventing breakdown of horses in any discipline. Do horses break down or weaken with time? Yes, and it is very sad when it happens because the animal is rushed or pushed too hard or through the wrong shaped hole. Good riding and training by definition maximizes the horse's ability to cope with the physical demands of his sport. Yet another difference between good and poor horsemanship. It's rather unfair to characterize entire disciplines or eras by the bad apples that are around. 



Doe said:


> In terms of wanting to do something, I am willing to accept that through breeding or whatever, some horses do show an interest in cattle work or even cross country. However Dressage, reining? No that I cannot accept. *I have never seen a horse that I believe is enjoying or wanting to do dressage.* If that were the case then there would not be the evident tension in their tails, necks, jaws, eyes, so many places. *Modern dressage is nothing but fakery.*


It's very much worth sifting through the bad to find the good in the horse industry, Doe. I would no more call myself a "dressage rider" than a particle physicist, but I would say that I do dressage with my horse (to the best of my ability, that is). You would honestly be hard pressed to find a much happier horse, barreling down from the back of his pasture to the gate when he sees me wearing my helmet and carrying the saddle. Under saddle, any tension he has is my fault, and I actively work to the best of my ability to eliminate. Even then, there is no gaping mouth in a loose cavesson, no rolling eye, no snapping wringing tail. And I have personally seen dozens more horses, representing most every discipline, with the same appearance and attitude. 

"Modern dressage is nothing but fakery." That is just about the most sad and close-minded thing I've read in a while. I've said so many times that I can't count anymore, that the delineation between "classical" and "modern" is worthless. Bad dressage is nothing but fakery, and by definition therefore not dressage. True dressage is anything but fakery.

A little optimism is warranted, no matter what you're looking at, and such pigeonholing of disciplines does no one any good. 

Beautiful video, Spyder, thanks for sharing that!


----------



## Beling

Plenty of horses DO what they DON'T WANT TO do, because horses have, in general, a huge capacity for enduring discomfort. The forever question is: WHY this or that behavior? Submission isn't the same as expression. I think this thread is mixing up behaviors, in both humans and horses, and goals+results. Reminds me of arguments about education: do better grades make better people?


----------



## MIEventer

Scoutrider said:


> Awesome post, MIE, especially these tidbits. Couldn't have been put any better!!
> 
> 
> 
> That's the idea, Doe. Not all horses do like the sport that they are in, hence the turnover rate. When the right horse meets the right rider in the right discipline, now, that's where the magic happens. I see it as a testament to those upper level riders that they are willing to take the time to seek out an equine partner as passionate about the discipline (no matter what that might be) as the rider is.
> 
> As far as "destructive on their bodies," proper breeding, riding, and conditioning goes miles to preventing breakdown of horses in any discipline. Do horses break down or weaken with time? Yes, and it is very sad when it happens because the animal is rushed or pushed too hard or through the wrong shaped hole. Good riding and training by definition maximizes the horse's ability to cope with the physical demands of his sport. Yet another difference between good and poor horsemanship. It's rather unfair to characterize entire disciplines or eras by the bad apples that are around.
> 
> 
> 
> It's very much worth sifting through the bad to find the good in the horse industry, Doe. I would no more call myself a "dressage rider" than a particle physicist, but I would say that I do dressage with my horse (to the best of my ability, that is). You would honestly be hard pressed to find a much happier horse, barreling down from the back of his pasture to the gate when he sees me wearing my helmet and carrying the saddle. Under saddle, any tension he has is my fault, and I actively work to the best of my ability to eliminate. Even then, there is no gaping mouth in a loose cavesson, no rolling eye, no snapping wringing tail. And I have personally seen dozens more horses, representing most every discipline, with the same appearance and attitude.
> 
> "Modern dressage is nothing but fakery." That is just about the most sad and close-minded thing I've read in a while. I've said so many times that I can't count anymore, that the delineation between "classical" and "modern" is worthless. Bad dressage is nothing but fakery, and by definition therefore not dressage. True dressage is anything but fakery.
> 
> A little optimism is warranted, no matter what you're looking at, and such pigeonholing of disciplines does no one any good.
> 
> Beautiful video, Spyder, thanks for sharing that!


Excellant post scoutrider!!


----------



## Doe

Mi
I have not raised eventing at all in fact. Only 1 component of it - dressage. I have been very specific as to the sports that I am not comfortable with, and I can be very specific as to why. Reining and Dressage and I am talking at a professional level.
I have specifically not stated a hatred of XCountry or cattle cutting etc for the very reason that i have seen both good and bad and therefore my views are mixed. I appreciate that not everyone is this way, and I am not talking your recreational owner with their weekend pet.

In terms of the body it is very destructive. A friend is a bodyworker at Olympic level and even she has grave concerns about the industry. As such I no longer see it as beautiful. That's fine. Someone else does that's upto them. Personally I wouldn't go and watch a bullfight but plenty of people do. As long as it is legal that is their prerogative. 

Everything has a positive and negative Sid. Fox hunting for example. It's a nice social event for a group of friends to go out riding, see the countryside, excitement and I'm sure the dogs love it. On the flip side its not very efficient to need so many people horses and dogs for 3 hours to maybe kill 1 fox. Killing with rifles would be much quicker, simpler. Many farmers are too scared to refuse the hunt over their land. I've seen many horses not involved injured as they try to follow the herd galloping by. On reflection I'm glad it's banned now. That doesn't make me a fanatic.

You are of course welcome to your sport and I'm sure you have a great bond with your horse. I don't know so I don't judge. I judge on what I see. I do not like what I see as a direction with dressage. I would like to see more focus on the natural flexibility and strength which only come with time. It cannot be shortcut. That is my opinion.

I wish you all the best in your adventures.


----------



## Doe

Scout rider

I see you points and we are not that far apart in actual fact. As I have tried to clearly state professional level dressage concerns me.

In terms of the fakery statement. What I mean is that dressage should be expression of the spirit of the horse. Balance, elegance, flexion, rhythm etc. At least that's how I see it. Unfortunately once ego and money is involved and mans competitive spirit that gets lost. As a culture shortcuts and cheating have become more and more acceptable if it means you can win. Look at all the diving in football for example.

The fakery is pulling things into shape, forcing them when the horse cannot really support them naturally. Even as I mentioned the ridiculous head bobbing that we now see which I still dont understand. 

As I mentioned in my other post there are real experts who agree. Look at either of those books. You cannot say Karl does not know dressage.
I've studied Hilary Claytons Horse Biomechanics inside out, and even she as probably the worlds leading expert in that field has continued to express concerns.

I know nothing compared to those guys. People should read their books and challenge the contents if they really believe there is nothing in what I say.


----------



## Doe

Beling said:


> Plenty of horses DO what they DON'T WANT TO do, because horses have, in general, a huge capacity for enduring discomfort. The forever question is: WHY this or that behavior? Submission isn't the same as expression. I think this thread is mixing up behaviors, in both humans and horses, and goals+results. Reminds me of arguments about education: do better grades make better people?


Spot on Beling, that was the concept that was put forward but has been lost amongst the arguments over individual disciplines.


----------



## Scoutrider

Doe said:


> Scout rider
> 
> I see you points and we are not that far apart in actual fact. As I have tried to clearly state professional level dressage concerns me.
> 
> *In terms of the fakery statement. What I mean is that dressage should be expression of the spirit of the horse. Balance, elegance, flexion, rhythm etc. At least that's how I see it.* Unfortunately once ego and money is involved and mans competitive spirit that gets lost. As a culture shortcuts and cheating have become more and more acceptable if it means you can win. Look at all the diving in football for example.


I agree with the bolded, and I would submit that once the focus of training and/or competition leaves the betterment of the horse and his movement, fitness, and overall health and ability that we have left the world of true dressage. I do believe that there is a place for competitive spirit; I've seen some very competitive horses, to put the human factor aside for just a moment. :wink: As a side note, I'd be very willing to bet that the only money involved in the average person's competition is flying out of the wallets of owners/riders/trainers, not into them. :lol: 

I am uncomfortable passing judgement on international/Olympic/professional riders and trainers, for the simple reason that I am not one and do not have the experience to legitimately do so. What I will say is that I feel as though I do learn _something_ from every ride that I watch, whether it is Lendon Grey, Anky van Grunsven, Beezie Madden, Shawn Flarida, Trevor Brazile, Clinton Anderson, or Pat Parelli. I'll leave exactly what I learned, and whether it was something to try or steer far away from up to the imagination today. :lol:

I will also agree that _socially_ we have become higher time-preference, that we prefer to have ends satisfied sooner rather than later. That cheating and cutting corners is considered acceptable, I would contest. There is still outrage when it happens, at least among the people I hear from both IRL and online. Perhaps it is more expected, or less surprising, to hear that someone has cheated, more so than accepted. But, is that because it is truly more prevalent? Or is it because modern media brings the stories to the surface so much faster and more often? An interesting question, there. 



Doe said:


> The fakery is pulling things into shape, forcing them when the horse cannot really support them naturally. Even as I mentioned the ridiculous head bobbing that we now see which I still dont understand.
> 
> As I mentioned in my other post there are real experts who agree. Look at either of those books. You cannot say Karl does not know dressage.
> I've studied Hilary Claytons Horse Biomechanics inside out, and even she as probably the worlds leading expert in that field has continued to express concerns.
> 
> I know nothing compared to those guys. People should read their books and challenge the contents if they really believe there is nothing in what I say.


I do not disagree that there is "fakery" in the show pen _in a number of disciplines and levels of competition_. Yes, those riders/trainers engaging in it are regrettable, as is the negative impact on the horses. There are techniques used that are ultimately detrimental to the wellbeing of the horse. That isn't my issue. My issue is that such practices are not limited to (or wholly representative of) international/Olympic/professional level dressage. Neither are such practices limited to "modern" competition. There have been people cranking on reins and tying heads down since the dawn of time. There have been other people striving to work with the horse's physiology and and naturally improve their carriage and fitness for equally as long. 

I have no disagreement with Karl or with Hilary Clayton, although the latter name is new to me, and in light of my relative inexperience I do defer somewhat to their expertise in their fields. However, using general research on equine biomechanics and concerns about techniques used by a segment of the population of dressage riders (and I would venture to say that is a small segment at that) to paint an entire discipline as cruel is not a good application of the research. 


@MIE: Thank you!


----------



## PerchiesKisses

This thread seems to have gone way off topic. :? 

Why is it that we horse people can never agree to disagree? We are so opinionated, and so passionate, that we fail to be able to say "I disagree, but you're *not* wrong."

I agree with the post that "speaking horse is speaking horse" ... heck! Monty Roberts gave the language "horse" a name - equus. Any of the great horsemen know the language and know it well, and that is why they are good at what they do. The difference between the very good horsemen, and the so-so horsemen is some people seem to be fluant in the language of horses almost as if they were born knowing it, while other's are like me in French class. sure I can say "hi my name is .... how are you?" but don't ask me to hold a conversation longer than 15 seconds. 

Look at these horsemen (and women) and tell me that they do not know the language and that the importance of joy and 'dance' that Hempfling talks about is not present in their movements? Most great horsemen seem to know the principles Hempfling talks about at an instinctive level... and it certainly shows!





 




 
My favourite is definitely this last one


----------



## bsms

Beling said:


> Plenty of horses DO what they DON'T WANT TO do, because horses have, in general, a huge capacity for enduring discomfort. The forever question is: WHY this or that behavior? Submission isn't the same as expression...


If self-expression is the goal, most of the horses I've met would never leave the food bucket. As my horses tell me 3 times a day, nothing says love like hay!

But most horses are not there as ornaments. They are expected to DO something. I joke that my horses should have signs on them reading "Will work for food". Being ridden isn't the greatest thrill of their life, but that is OK. Unloading hay (allergic) and brushing horses (allergic) isn't the greatest thrill of my life, either...nor cleaning the corral.

But if they resented being ridden, my daughter wouldn't be able to sing Jimmy Buffet songs with the reins wrapped around the horn. They are not "enduring discomfort", unless enduring discomfort is defined as not eating.

Now if you will excuse me, I need to go out in the desert sun and check my slaves' water buckets...


----------



## PerchiesKisses

bsms said:


> If self-expression is the goal, most of the horses I've met would never leave the food bucket. As my horses tell me 3 times a day, nothing says love like hay!
> 
> But most horses are not there as ornaments. They are expected to DO something. I joke that my horses should have signs on them reading "Will work for food". Being ridden isn't the greatest thrill of their life, but that is OK. Unloading hay (allergic) and brushing horses (allergic) isn't the greatest thrill of my life, either...nor cleaning the corral.
> 
> But if they resented being ridden, my daughter wouldn't be able to sing Jimmy Buffet songs with the reins wrapped around the horn. They are not "enduring discomfort", unless enduring discomfort is defined as not eating.
> 
> Now if you will excuse me, I need to go out in the desert sun and check my slaves' water buckets...


 ****:clap: I'm sorry this just made me laugh. ... and reminded me of those very unpleasant days when it's thirty below and the hay needs to be brought out, but even the tractor thinks it's too cold to work. So out comes the wheelbarrow as we unload three ginormous square bales into maneuverable portions, then lug it uncerimoniously across a great expanse of barren land to where those big brutes stand in the comfort of the wind-blocking trees. You can almost swear they are laughing at you and they are never inclined to be any more grateful of the effort you've put in bringing them food, as they still make if miserable to try to catch them, even if all you want is to bring them in to clip the ice clumps out of their tails.

Sometimes I have to wonder who exactly is the slave in our relationship.


----------



## MIEventer

> Sometimes I have to wonder who exactly is the slave in our relationship.


Great question *wink*


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Doe I cannot believe that some one so closed minded that they are calling dressage slavery and completely insulting something which they do not understand would go so far as to tell another member that they are utterly offensive for stating facts.
No one is saying anything degrading about rope waggling or "energy reading" and body language usage. Only that (surprise surprise) the ability to train and work with a horse through body language and energy is a base requirement for success at the high levels of any sport. No rope waggling required.

If you just want to sit here and tell me how abusive I am to my horse without even attempting to learn about the sport we do then you can go back to the NH section and leave us horse abusers here on the rest of the board by ourselves without any of your wonderful insight into the equine psyche.
I have other words for where you can also go, but my mother taught me not to say anything if I don't have anything nice to say. I'm going through and reporting your offensive posts and hopefully that will help improve your debating abilities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Dressage as the dictionary describes it
-noun
1
haute école(def. 1).

2
the art or method of training a horse in obedience and in precision of movement.

ORIGIN1935–40; < F, equiv. to dress(er) to dress + -age-age

I think, using this meaning, it could be said that all good horsemanship is dressage. In nearly every discipline people attempt to achieve obedience and precision of movement... Even Klaus is performing dressage going by this definition... He is simply going about achieving it in a different manner than many.


----------



## Jessabel

Doe said:


> In terms of wanting to do something, I am willing to accept that through breeding or whatever, some horses do show an interest in cattle work or even cross country. However Dressage, reining? No that I cannot accept. *I have never seen a horse that I believe is enjoying or wanting to do dressage. If that were the case then there would not be the evident tension in their tails, necks, jaws, eyes, so many places.* Modern dressage is nothing but fakery. Utter illusion with no substance.


I can dispute that.


























^^^ I like how she's reining with no reins. :wink:

There you go. Happy, healthy dressage and reining horses.


----------



## Northern

No need for spurs & whips when a horse wants to perform.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Well, IMO, spurs and whips should not be punishment... Aids for refinement only.


----------



## Northern

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Well, IMO, spurs and whips should not be punishment... Aids for refinement only.


Seems to me that aids are the more natural gestures to help the horse know what we want, like weight aids & gravity aids (when torso is inclined when astride). 

Whether you call spurs & whips "refinement" doesn't change the reality of what's going on with their users & their horses.

The same with the double bridle: called a "refined" tool. If the horse is highly obedient by the time he's "ready for the double bridle", why does one find it necessary, just for going around in an arena?


----------



## bsms

Spurs can be used to punish a horse. That is how my gelding got his scars.

OTOH, spurs can be used for a light touch at a precise point. I don't ride at that level, so I don't use spurs...but that doesn't make spurs evil. I doubt the large scar on my gelding's side is typical of what happens when top riders use spurs. In fact, I'm pretty sure any judge would choke the rider of a horse marked up like Trooper, unless a very fast explanation was made.


----------



## morabhobbyhorse

*OK, I'm too tired today to finish reading every post.*

When I watched the first video where it said the horse was free, first thing I thought, 'now I'd love to see this in a place that has wild mustangs, and this guy waiting for one to want to be his bud.' LOL. And I watched the others, and read the posts, and thought, 'exactly how is this guy any different than the other videos I watch on youtube, well except his horses rear a lot and I'm not much wanting to teach my mare that.' And all this hoopla about joining and round pens. I've joined with my mare several times over 3 years, when she was being disrespectful, and it wasn't in a round pen. If she wouldn't let me catch her when I went out to the pasture, I ran her away from me. If she stopped I tried again, and if she took off, I made her go faster. I never knew I was killing her spirit because I can't peel her off me now. And that came from 3 years of solid, consistent work where she now knows I'm not going to hit her, or yell at her, or intentionally scare her. I round penned her once, just to show her different cues of inside and outside turns, and whoa. While she was going around tossing her head and being a brat, I just ignored her. I didn't run her until she had no where to go and had to submit. I let her blow off steam then we worked, but I never once knew she felt so desperate and trapped. If I ever feel she needs to relearn those cues I'll put her in a square pen. and she'll stop at the first corner, and turn to face me and ask me, quite reasonably, 'mom, what the Hades are you doing.' I'll tell her I don't know, and she'll come up to me and comfort me and we'll go do something productive. I didn't see anything different about this guy, but had I, and it grabbed my attention, I would use it. I don't follow any one guru. I enjoyed the videos, they were very pretty, haven't a clue what I was supposed to learn, so will read the last page another day and maybe some of you learned people can tell me what I didn't learn. Thanks, Cheryl


----------



## Equilove

morabhobbyhorse said:


> When I watched the first video where it said the horse was free, first thing I thought, 'now I'd love to see this in a place that has wild mustangs, and this guy waiting for one to want to be his bud.' LOL. And I watched the others, and read the posts, and thought, 'exactly how is this guy any different than the other videos I watch on youtube, well except his horses rear a lot and I'm not much wanting to teach my mare that.' And all this hoopla about joining and round pens. I've joined with my mare several times over 3 years, when she was being disrespectful, and it wasn't in a round pen. If she wouldn't let me catch her when I went out to the pasture, I ran her away from me. If she stopped I tried again, and if she took off, I made her go faster. I never knew I was killing her spirit because I can't peel her off me now. And that came from 3 years of solid, consistent work where she now knows I'm not going to hit her, or yell at her, or intentionally scare her. I round penned her once, just to show her different cues of inside and outside turns, and whoa. While she was going around tossing her head and being a brat, I just ignored her. I didn't run her until she had no where to go and had to submit. I let her blow off steam then we worked, but I never once knew she felt so desperate and trapped. If I ever feel she needs to relearn those cues I'll put her in a square pen. and she'll stop at the first corner, and turn to face me and ask me, quite reasonably, 'mom, what the Hades are you doing.' I'll tell her I don't know, and she'll come up to me and comfort me and we'll go do something productive. I didn't see anything different about this guy, but had I, and it grabbed my attention, I would use it. I don't follow any one guru. I enjoyed the videos, they were very pretty, haven't a clue what I was supposed to learn, so will read the last page another day and maybe some of you learned people can tell me what I didn't learn. Thanks, Cheryl


Everyone's horse and everyone's story is different. That's why it's silly to generalize horses at all, and for people to argue and say "No MY trainer is better" or "THIS training method is stupid!" - There's always exceptions, which is why we always hear people chime in with "Well MY horse..."


----------



## Northern

bsms said:


> Spurs can be used to punish a horse. That is how my gelding got his scars. News flash!
> 
> OTOH, spurs can be used for a light touch at a precise point.


And the difference,_ to the horse,_ between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?



morabhobbyhorse said:


> ...square pen. and she'll stop at the first corner, and turn to face me and ask me, quite reasonably, 'mom, what the Hades are you doing.' I'll tell her I don't know, and she'll come up to me and comfort me and we'll go do something productive.


You're making up a story about how your mare would react to a square pen.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Northern said:


> Seems to me that aids are the more natural gestures to help the horse know what we want, like weight aids & gravity aids (when torso is inclined when astride).
> 
> Whether you call spurs & whips "refinement" doesn't change the reality of what's going on with their users & their horses.
> 
> The same with the double bridle: called a "refined" tool. If the horse is highly obedient by the time he's "ready for the double bridle", why does one find it necessary, just for going around in an arena?


It's not for "just" going around in the arena, that's my point. It is for gaining more precision with smaller cues. Not to be used for everyday riding. 

Just because an aid is often misused doesn't mean that it has no place, and just because your goals do not need those aids does it make it wrong for someone else's to have a use for them, as long they are not used to provoke fear.

I'm actually of the principle that less is more... However, many of my good equestrian friends are heavily into competition. I have had to learn to respect what they do as I expect them to respect what I do. My destination is not so different, ego aside.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Northern said:


> And the difference,_ to the horse,_ between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?
> 
> 
> 
> You're making up a story about how your mare would react to a square pen.


Depending on the level of riding, and the level of training.. A different gait, a different movement, amount of bend.... Or nothing at all.

Just to clarify, I did not mean to imply that spurs and whips cannot do harm... Just that it is my opinion that they should never do so.


----------



## Scoutrider

Northern said:


> And the difference,_ to the horse,_ between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?


Surface area, plain and simple. Less surface area, more precision of the cue. Assuming of course that the spurs are being used correctly, as an aid of lateral movement and not to encourage forward motion.


----------



## Jessabel

Northern said:


> And the difference,_ to the horse,_ between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?


It _is_ different. :? Exactly what Scoutrider said.


----------



## Equilove

Northern said:


> And the difference,_ to the horse,_ between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?


My mare was broke out in spurs, and I couldn't get her to listen to my nubby heels for the longest time. It's like the difference between me pressing my palm on you, or poking you with my finger. Spurs are harmless when used correctly; the ones with rowels aren't meant to jab into the horse's ribs; they're meant to be rolled along the side with pressure. If you take most any spur and make push it against your hand and roll it upward, you will feel no pain. I know because every time I go to a tack shop I do that with all the western spurs...lol.


----------



## bsms

Yes, the idiot cowboy who spurred Trooper left 2.5 inch holes in each side. One has since grown hair over it, the right side has not. The same idiot cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a one inch hole in Trooper's withers...but that doesn't make saddles bad.

I cannot imagine what would happen at a reining or dressage competition if someone noticed the competitor's horse had a 2-3 inch hole spurred thru the skin. I'm guessing the rider would be lucky to leave alive.


----------



## christopher

Scoutrider said:


> Surface area, plain and simple. Less surface area, more precision of the cue.


negative. less surface area, more pressure. the precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally *nothing* to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. with that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

now i do show in leverage bits and i wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but i will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.


----------



## Doe

christopher said:


> negative. less surface area, more pressure. the precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally *nothing* to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. with that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.
> 
> now i do show in leverage bits and i wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but i will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.


Spot on Christopher.
I agree that no tool need to be damaging or painful. Like a gun it needs someone to pull the trigger.

However there are a couple of points to make. Firstly there is importance in how it's been trained to begin with. Though the purpose of spurs is to roll and offer a lighter cue than a heel, too many people use them as a negative reinforcement tool, ie move or I use the spur. Even if later they become light, they will never become soft, because the underlying threat will remain and the horse is always conscious of that I believe. IF they are used correctly from the start however and that is not deviated from then again that is the difference between stimulus and pressure.

Secondly If we are at least agreed that we all wanted a horse that responds to the lightest cues and without pain, then surely my original discussion about weight aids being the ultimate goal makes perfect sense?

Weight aids cannot hurt a horse (realistically at least) and could not be much lighter. In fact when you move your heel to use the spur you have already given a weight aid. As such wouldn't it be better if the horse responded to that before the spur even moved?

The same goes for double reins and everything else. 

To the poster that put up the videos, thank you I will watch them closely. I am sorry that those involved in dressage do not like my opinion. That is why I would not post in the dressage section, I am not an activist lol I just do not like what I see. If you look carefully at what I wrote I said I had not SEEN a horse (implied at FEI professional standard) that I believe is not tense and I believe is enjoying their work. I remain open minded and am happy to consider any such videos. I am sure that there must be some, however in general when I go to an event (or on the yard I was on for 2 years which was a professional yard) or I turn on the TV to RFD, I do not see it. As I say perhaps we see different things.

Finally to clarify my comments around reining. Again each to his own. My issues with reining at professional level are the training as much as anything. Horses are asked to carry often too heavy riders at as little as 2 years of age and trained hard. The drop out rate as I have seen it is very high. They are after the money of the futurities at 3. Their back does not set until between 5 and 6 years of age. The knees are the first to set, and that is all they look at. It is too young. My own horse was a product of that and I see the permanent damage that is done. His father was twice world champion and retired at a very young age, as did his mother at 8. Finally some (and I appreciate not all) of the training methods are incredibly harsh and domineering in order to get the low headset. Bumping on curb bits and spurs is not right in my opinion and I see it a lot. Is this the same for everyone? I am sure it is not, and I ma glad it is not. Where have I seen this? Training for the European futurities given by some of europes top professional trainers in the UK and Germany, and the FEI world teams. There was a relatively recent example where one of the national teams competing was even caught doping another teams horses. If they are willing to do that, then how much do you think they likely care about how they train a horse? As I say however this is not about sports per se I am just clarifying my experiences, best of luck to those that do not work this way.


----------



## Scoutrider

christopher said:


> negative. less surface area, more pressure. the precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally *nothing* to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. with that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.
> 
> now i do show in leverage bits and i wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but i will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.


Perhaps I should have clarified my meaning.

Of course less surface area means more pressure if the rider applies the spur with the same intensity as they would/do with their heel. It's simple physics: same load applied over a large area vs a small area, and the pressure will be greater where the load is distributed over less area. I never said anything to the contrary. So, spurs apply a clearer aid by virtue (or vice? :wink of upping the pressure and further localizing the application. Spurs are not tack, but an artificial aid, and allow less force from the to apply the same or more intensity of aid. I never said that if the horse doesn't understand the pressure that spurs magically train the animal.

Because a rider with spurs has the ability to apply pressure over, say, a half-inch square (as with my POW spurs) rather than approximately 2 square inches of heel pressure, several more things can be clearly asked of the horse in a smaller area, minimizing the movement of the rider's leg. 

I don't know about everyone else, but when I do ride in spurs they barely touch the horse's side and I get the same result that a _comparatively_ firm touch of my calf gets. That comparatively firm touch is still very light, simply backing up and clarifying weight aids. 

As far as "doing it in a snaffle/halter and without spurs" goes, I do it every day in a snaffle and without spurs, and also have good control bareback in a halter. Kindly do not mistake an understanding and appreciation for what correctly applied spurs allow for in terms of refinement and precision of aids for reliance upon them for refinement period. Spurs certainly do not refine anything - only an educated and efficient rider does that. I claim to be neither. 

My apologies for adding to the off-topic-ness of the thread - I do have more to say on the topic of spurs and their correct use, but I need to be on the road in half an hour and stalls have to be clean first... :lol:


----------



## morabhobbyhorse

*Yes Northern I did make that up*

It was meant to be a joke. And equilove I was trying to say I don't follow anyone's method to a T. And I wasn't 'chiming in' with 'my horse,' since I think everyone talking about training and methods etc. are talking about their experiences with their horses  If I said I followed PP or CA I would mean with 'my horse' not the BO or my dog or neighbor :lol: What does someone have to be the best anyway? I watch a lot of youtube videos usually related to a certain area I want to work on, and have taken away a lot of things I could use not just by the famous people, but the 'mentor' types, that that aren't flashy, just show you something plain and simple, and end of video. I read, I study the horses when they're together and separate and I try to listen to my horse too. I don't understand all this bickering over who's the best.


----------



## Spyder

AlexS said:


> Could this entire thread be in the NH section?



It absolutely should be.

The NH section was designed for such opinions. I don't care if the person the OP refers to _THINKS_ he isn't a NH person but with what has been posted it should in in that section...after all the NH section was NOT designed just for Parelli but ALL areas of NH.




Doe said:


> If you look carefully at what I wrote I said I had not SEEN a horse (implied at FEI professional standard) that I believe is not tense and I believe is enjoying their work. I remain open minded and am happy to consider any such videos. I am sure that there must be some, however in general when I go to an event (or on the yard I was on for 2 years which was a professional yard) or I turn on the TV to RFD, I do not see it. As I say perhaps we see different things.
> 
> .


By your own admission you have little to no knowledge of dressage so making any negative comment on a discipline you are ignorant in is an insult.

I don't make comments about areas I have little or no knowledge in so how dare you attempt to do so.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Spyder said:


> It absolutely should be.
> 
> The NH section was designed for such opinions. I don't care if the person the OP refers to _THINKS_ he isn't a NH person but with what has been posted it should in in that section...after all the NH section was NOT designed just for Parelli but ALL areas of NH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By your own admission you have little to no knowledge of dressage so making any negative comment on a discipline you are ignorant in is an insult.
> 
> I don't make comments about areas I have little or no knowledge in so how dare you attempt to do so.


THANK YOU.

Doe you are basically now trolling. I am sorry that you can't accept that dressage is a well respected discipline of riding and is not, infact, abuse. Anyone posting otherwise is an ignorant, close minded ignoramus and deserves to be treated as such. As spyder has said, we do not go into the nh forum and post about how stupid and abusive it is, you came here, asked for our opinions and then didn't like them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kitten_Val

Doe said:


> If you look carefully at what I wrote I said I had not SEEN a horse (implied at FEI professional standard) that I believe is not tense and I believe is enjoying their work.


All I can say for this comment is that I feel sorry you haven't seen good riders and good trainers. I do see every time I go to my dressage trainer barn. I do see the change in my own horses when I started dressage. And I don't think bashing the whole discipline is a way to go. Or then ANY riding is abusive. 

With that being said I'm closing the thread...


----------

