# Snaffles in dressage



## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Don't flash nosebands have a different purpose than double bridles? Flash nosebands hold the horse's mouth closed, whereas the double bridle uses a curb bit to place pressure on the poll. So they're not two ways of achieving the same thing and I'm not sure how they can really be compared as 'easier' than each other.


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## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

They are 2 entirely different peices of tack that are used under different circustances. And if a double bridle is used correctly it should be just as gentle on a horse as a snaffle. That being said, even a snaffle in the wrong hands can do some damage.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm now wondering why double bridles are allowed in dressage, when the horse is ridden in a snaffle to show how soft and willing it is. Why is a curb allowed? xD


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## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

The curb part is only used for a breif moment to grab the horses attention, usually before an advanced movement.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

claireauriga said:


> Don't flash nosebands have a different purpose than double bridles? Flash nosebands hold the horse's mouth closed, whereas the double bridle uses a curb bit to place pressure on the poll. So they're not two ways of achieving the same thing and I'm not sure how they can really be compared as 'easier' than each other.


You're right they are not the same thing and yet people are using them as such. This is what I don't understand. The flash noseband prevents the horse from opening its mouth so the rider can collect the horse with just a snaffle. I guess the argument is that double bridles are so harsh this is better? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Well, flash nosebands are used a lot in racing and cross-country, to help keep the bit in the horse's mouth and keep it from dropping the bit while it's racing along. I'm not sure how it helps collect the horse as it can't work in the same way as the curb - unless it can put pressure on the poll, which I don't think it can? If anyone knows, please enlighten me 

I know the curb is only used lightly and briefly, but I still wonder why it's allowed, given the principles behind riding in a snaffle ^^ It's a curious thing.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Depends on your horse and your level of riding. A double bridle can be very severe in the wrong hands and should never be used until you and the horse are ready to do so. In fact, you can't even show in a double bridle until 3rd level (nor is it really necessary). It's expected in the upper levels as it's a much more effective bridle at that level. Until you're at third only snaffles (including french links, Herm Sprenger, etc) are permitted.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Ah, that makes more sense. You're only allowed to use that kind of bridle when you're good enough to not need it - or to use it with great subtlety and skill, as an additional means of communication rather than to control a fault


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

claireauriga said:


> I know the curb is only used lightly and briefly, but I still wonder why it's allowed, given the principles behind riding in a snaffle ^^ It's a curious thing.


The pressure on the poll and chin that a curb provides is what puts the horse in the proper frame. Snaffles only pull straight back, which is why if you try to put a horse in a fame using a snaffle they will open their mouths, so you need a flash noseband to stop that. When you collect a horse in a snaffle you are literally asking them to "stop" and "go" at the same time. A curb makes the horse transfer their weight to the hind end and drop their head vertical, which is how they are supposed to be in dressage. It's about leverage.

My question is whether people think hauling on a snaffle bit the horse can't escape from (because of the flash) is still less harsh than using a double bridle.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks for explaining that! I only ever see horses being ridden in snaffles or the occasional gag, so while I know that curbs provide leverage and put pressure on the poll, I don't know much more than that. Your explanation has put your question into context for me


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> claireauriga said:
> 
> 
> > A curb makes the horse transfer their weight to the hind end and drop their head vertical, which is how they are supposed to be in dressage. It's about leverage..
> ...


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> The pressure on the poll and chin that a curb provides is what puts the horse in the proper frame. Snaffles only pull straight back, which is why if you try to put a horse in a fame using a snaffle they will open their mouths, so you need a flash noseband to stop that. When you collect a horse in a snaffle you are literally asking them to "stop" and "go" at the same time. A curb makes the horse transfer their weight to the hind end and drop their head vertical, which is how they are supposed to be in dressage. It's about leverage.
> 
> My question is whether people think hauling on a snaffle bit the horse can't escape from (because of the flash) is still less harsh than using a double bridle.


I don't think I would agree with all of that. I've never used anything but a snaffle to teach a horse to go in a frame. You begin teaching a horse to go on the bit by teaching them to submit to it, which is very possible (and IMO ideal) with a snaffle. In fact, you would never start a horse using a double bridle! A horse should know how to collect and go on the bit in a snaffle by the time you start using a double. A snaffle can do quite a bit and the action it has on a horse is a lot more complicated then "pulling straight back", just like 'stop' is a lot more complicated then just pulling on your reins. Now a beginning level frame and a grand prix level frame are different and to get a grand prix level frame a double bridle is much more effective because of the curb, leverage, etc. 

I honestly don't know why so many dressage riders use a flash. They aren't even allowed in the hunter ring, where opening mouths/evading the bit is also penalized. Anyone have an answer to that? I do think hauling on the snaffle with a flash is harsh! But hauling on any bit is harsh...


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

the point of the flash noseband is as people say to stop the horse opening in the mouth, that is, to stop it resisting the rein contact, some horses use opening their mouths as an evasion, or, they get the bit under their tounge. 

i really think the serverity of the bits is caused by the individual rider, and the way that the bits are used


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I also don't know why so many dressage riders are riding with a flash.. I personally don't like them, and don't use them. 
A bit is only as harsh as the hands behind them.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

a double bridle is used (or is supposed to be used) only in the upper levels of dressage, where the advanced movements come into play...introduce it prior to that, and you are making up for a lack of training  By the time you introduce a curb bit, the horse must be under himself completely and moving from his hind through his back and then into the neck and head (not a headset by any means)

The flash is used to keep the horse's mouth closed - so they can't harden the corners of their mouth- but i am 100% sure you cannot show with them past a certain level. Again - well trained (or correctly trained) dressage horses don't need them. I think that the use of the flash stems from an unbalanced rider who is not steady in their hands...the horse gets a hard mouth because of it, so the rider introduces a mechanical cure (JMO)

In the correct hands, however, neither of these are harmful; nor one "more harmful" than the other


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about low-level dressage here. I'm talking about what I saw in the Olympic eventing dressage - they were asking for collection, not just working paces, and yet about half the riders were using snaffles - nearly all of them with flash nosebands. I'm pretty sure flashes weren't allowed in dressage at all at one time either, were they? 

Yeah, people are trying to take shortcuts in training. Unfortunately that's what happens when a sport becomes more popular and there gets to be more money involved. 

My experience with this issue comes from Icelandics - they are ridden in snaffles with drop nosebands and since gaiting is the same as collection riders have the same problem with horses opening their mouths. I've heard people complain that all Icelandics seem to be heard-mouthd and stiff in the poll and I think this is the reason why. It is bad riding and I'm sorry to see the same thing happening in dressage.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm not sure if they've ever banned flashes in dressage... long as I can remember they've been allowed! When you are showing in dressage through USDF (US Dressage Federation) you can start using one at 3rd level. They become mandatory at some point, I believe Prix St. Georges? (someone correct me if I'm wrong!). When it comes to the dressage phase of EVENTING, then you can start using one at Intermediate but I don't think they're ever required. I think that's why a lot of Olympic riders are using snaffles/flashes, they are eventers first, dressage horses second. That's my guess anyways.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Heh, a similar discussion goes on here.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

upnover said:


> I'm not sure if they've ever banned flashes in dressage... long as I can remember they've been allowed! When you are showing in dressage through usdf (US dressage Federation) you can start using one at 3rd level. They become mandatory at some point, I believe Prix St. Georges? (someone correct me if I'm wrong!). When it comes to the dressage phase of eventing, then you can start using one at Intermediate but I don't think they're ever required. I think that's why a lot of Olympic riders are using snaffles/flashes, they are eventers first, dressage horses second. That's my guess anyways.



upnover, i probably had it backwards!


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

kickshaw said:


> upnover, i probably had it backwards!


No I would agree with what you said! It just depends on if you're showing through (and following the rules of) USDF or eventing. 

I was replying to ponyboy, who was asking if flashes were ever banned from dressage all together.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

claireauriga said:


> Heh, a similar discussion goes on here.


Interesting. I thought the Olympic x-country was great too. I also agree that eventers are in it for the XC - It should be its own sport really.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Flashes have a purpose. And it's not to keep the horse's mouth closed!! They are there to stabilize the bit so that the rider's aids won't be confused by the bit moving, like then the horse chews the bit.
Drop nosebands are most commonly seen on stallions because they put pressure on the end of the nose bone and are a little harsher when the horse opens it's mouth and apparently that over-rides testosterone? They are also really useful for lunging! You can attach the line to both the noseband and the bit, so if the horse bolts the bit doesn't go through the mouth.
I don't think any of you have ridden many PSG/I1 horses. On some of them you NEED a double. At a certain point in the training the horses need re-enforcement up front. With some of them this point never comes because they are so sensitive. With others, like stallions with biiig necks, they eventually realize that they can undermine you with their necks. Then when they get hot in the tempis, your half halts stop going through and pretty soon you are doing a nice handgallop above the bit around the corners as a set up for your half pass/ three tempis which is NOT FUN in the middle of a test. So the double really comes in handy because you can just lift your hand(s) up sharply and all of a sudden your nice balanced horse is back  Some horses don't need a double, some do. It's the same with some horses need spurs some don't, etc.
I think it's in the US the rule that doubles are not mandatory in FEI classes anymore, which is good, imo. Not in qualifiers or FEI sanctioned competitions though. They're still trying to push that through.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Flashes have a purpose. And it's not to keep the horse's mouth closed!! They are there to stabilize the bit so that the rider's aids won't be confused by the bit moving, like then the horse chews the bit.


Seems to me bit stops, full cheek snaffles and D-ring snaffles accomplish the same thing. 



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Drop nosebands are most commonly seen on stallions because they put pressure on the end of the nose bone and are a little harsher when the horse opens it's mouth and apparently that over-rides testosterone?


Do you have a source for that?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> ~*~anebel~*~ said:
> 
> 
> > Flashes have a purpose. And it's not to keep the horse's mouth closed!! They are there to stabilize the bit so that the rider's aids won't be confused by the bit moving, like then the horse chews the bit.
> ...


Bit stops are illegal, and full cheeks and dees do still move, plus they are a lot uglyer than a loose-ring

Look at any young stallion videos from any verband.
"Invented by the Spanish Riding School, this noseband encircles the nose around the chin groove, as opposed to just below the cheekbone, with the strap on the nasal bone, and never below it. It reminds the horse to keep his mouth closed and prevents the horse from crossing his jaw." -wikipedia
Young stallions like to open their mouths to whinny, and most horses will cross their jaws when first introduced to the bit. I think the drop is actaully a handy little device.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Look at any young stallion videos from any verband.
> "Invented by the Spanish Riding School, this noseband encircles the nose around the chin groove, as opposed to just below the cheekbone, with the strap on the nasal bone, and never below it. It reminds the horse to keep his mouth closed and prevents the horse from crossing his jaw." -wikipedia
> Young stallions like to open their mouths to whinny, and most horses will cross their jaws when first introduced to the bit. I think the drop is actaully a handy little device.


Hmmm ...since the SRS uses stallions exclusively they will automatically refer to a young horse as a stallion. :roll: 

Up until recently when so many of the new nosebands came to be used, the dropped noseband was used almost on every horse including mares and geldings. Be careful when you make statements that are so sweeping. Dropped were used before the flash as the noseband of choice in all levels until the double was allowed to be used.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Bit stops are illegal,


Ah I see. 

No offense to anyone but I think competition has ruined what dressage was meant to be. I do not think it's good for horses at all.


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## juniormylove (Aug 28, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> [The pressure on the poll and chin that a curb provides is what puts the horse in the proper frame. Snaffles only pull straight back, which is why if you try to put a horse in a fame using a snaffle they will open their mouths, so you need a flash noseband to stop that. When you collect a horse in a snaffle you are literally asking them to "stop" and "go" at the same time. A curb makes the horse transfer their weight to the hind end and drop their head vertical, which is how they are supposed to be in dressage. It's about leverage.


I don't think so...I've seen the exact same results by a girl at my barn riding her horse in a french link


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Sounds like you're lucky enough to have a horse with natural talent.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> claireauriga said:
> 
> 
> > Heh, a similar discussion goes on here.
> ...


not all eventers are in it for the cross country. why would they spend so much time training for dressage if they liked to hoon. this is said by an eventer btw


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, you can compete in dressage without doing XC but you can't compete in XC without doing dressage. So if you liked dressage better I wouldn't see the point of eventing, but that's just me.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

that doesnt mean that we mope around the dressage arena waiting to do cross country! The point of eventing is a test of skills, strength, determination, fitness and wits. It's to test the hose and rider of the 3 diciplines. The horse has to be good at everything to do well. If people were in it for just the cross country, by now they would've made up individual cross country events.


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