# Color experts! Name those patterns!



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

They can have blue eyes if other patterns are present that cause blue eyes. 

When I can get one my computer I will post more. PITA posting from my phone.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Why do they state that tobianos can have blue eyes? Because they can. It's just not CAUSED by the tobiano gene at all, but by another white pattern that has to be present. 

As for white patterns on those three. Each has tobiano, which is easy to spot - high white on the legs, white crossing the spine especially at the withers and hips.

Sabino is probably present in the mare, causing the rough lacy edges to her colour patches. 

Frame looks like it is definitely in the filly and the stallion, and I would have definitely tested the mare before I bred her. The filly and stallion have the typical spreading above the eyes look to their face white, a trait I definitely associate with frame.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. It's just so annoying how UC Davis makes it sound like tobiano alone can cause blue eyes. They should be a depedable source, not spreading more misinformation.
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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Thanks guys. It's just so annoying how UC Davis makes it sound like tobiano alone can cause blue eyes. They should be a depedable source, not spreading more misinformation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


UC Davis makes it sound like tobiano can cause blue eyes because they DO believe tobiano can cause blue eyes. They also believe it can cause excessive face white, especially in the homozygous form. 

From Samantha Brooks who was part of the tobiano research group


> Tobiano does not, in general cause additional face white. However, like any biological system, if you try to make hard and fast rules mother nature will defy you! Especially in homozygous tobianos, you can see additional face white, broad blazes, blue eyes etc. This is only due to the tobiano...It does not, in general, cause the broad bonnet faces you see in overo horses.


I asked a few more question for clarification and this is what I got back


> The key is that some homozygous TO horses will have more white and sometimes blue eyes, but not always (and I could more accurately say "not often".) TO is capable of producing the odd blue eye or two without the aid of overo or sabino genes.


From another researcher on the same/similar topic


> The truth is that white patterns are notoriously unpredictable. They do what they want to do, and we can't use the white on a horse to say for sure what patterns they must carry. We know what the tendency of these patterns are, and so we can make guesses, but I would never say that a horse was "definitely" more than tobiano just because it had a star on its face. White patterns are caused by the migration of melanocytes, and it is always possible that they will migrate to a small area outside the "norm."




I, however, do NOT believe tobiano causes blue eyes. The research is old, way back before we had confirmed splash genes, etc etc. They believe that it can because some of the horses in their research had excessive face white and blue eyes and were homozygous. But keep in mind that they couldn't rule out splash, and we know how minimal it can be now, and they didn't have ANY sabinos mapped ( as far as face white goes.)


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I dont think bashing any institute that teaches is acceptable. You need to see when the information was published. IF it was published or if the research is current as in 2011 2012 or 2013.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No one is bashing the laboratory stevenson. If they haven't updated their information, it's no different than saying XYZ source is incorrect.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

not spreading misinformation... hmmm


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

How on earth is that bashing when it's true? They should know better than to make broad generalizations than that when they're the ones providing these tests. I didn't say "oh they SUCK." Seriously, get over yourself and stop trying to make an issue out of nothing.
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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

Did anyone read my post LOL
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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha yes I did riddlemethis, thank you for your input and I agree. It makes sense because we can't test for all genes yet. However based on case studies, I am confident they will discover tobiano has nothing to do with blue eyes. In almost every case I know of, blue eyes tend to test positive for an overo gene. I'm sure there are some exceptions but I suppose we can't say tobiano causes blue eyes anymore than we can say it doesn't until we can definitively test every blue eyed horse for an identifiable marker.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would be curious to see the results of those same horses if they were tested again for splash. Splash could very easily go unnoticed on a typical tobiano because tobiano causes high whites on the legs by itself and splash could get lost in that. Splash also causes wide blazes like the quotes describe.

But I also see tobiano, frame, and sabino in that filly.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. I ask because if you hadn't noticed, this is the same woman who doesn't care about frame on frame breedings. I posted this as another example of a "potential" lethal white and got into a heated discussion with a friend and local Paint breeder as she stated I was wrong because the stallion is tobiano. I said he was blatantly showing an overo pattern due to his blaze and blue eye, as was the mare. We worked out our differences and she said she's going to brush up on genetics but is quite adamant that tobiano is the only pattern on the stud, quoting UC Davis as her source. 

Unfortunately, the argument "I know color experts on an online forum" doesn't hold up as well as "this genetics websites states tobianos can have blue eyes." It's unfortunate as I respect her beyond compare as a phenomonal barrel racer and trainer and she owns an amazingly talented stallion but he is frame overo, so the risk is there if you're not adamant about mare owners testing or assuming you "know" the pattern based on misinformation or that registries know what the heck they're talking about when labelling patterns/colors. =\
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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

You could make a wager with her- she tests him for frame through UC Davis. If he comes back negative, you pay her double the testing fee ($25 x 2 = $50). If he comes back positive, she has to start listing him as frame positive


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Oh she knows her stallion has frame - in fact, she tested him when it was unneccessary as he blatantly displays frame as his pattern. So she would never breed him to a blatantly frame mare. But based on things like UC Davis stating tobianos can have blue eyes and face white, she would breed her stallion to a mare listed as tobiano without testing if she had blue eyes and face white which is where my concern came in with informing people of things that may or may not be correct. 

The woman who owns the three horses I originially posted that sparked the discussion knows she's breeding frame to frame and doesn't care - and is even selling pregnant frame mares in foal to frame stallions without notifying potential buyers of the risk.
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