# Cart lurches with horse's walk..?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Post pictures of your horse harnessed to the side. Some lurching in certain situations is expected with a two wheel. It should continue once you are going. What you describe sounds like a cart that is not set up.correctly for your size horse and harness not adjusted properly.


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## Vixenna (Jul 17, 2020)

I'm sure it's a mess of things wrong, but I can't get better without making mistakes and learning from them I'm sure! 😅
And I do have a driving bridle for him, we were just going around the yard and driveway so I had him in that.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

This is probably such a basic question that you will roll your eyes, but is it possible that there's something wrong with the way the singletree / swingletree is working?


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## Vixenna (Jul 17, 2020)

It is actually just fixed hooks that the traces attach to. Do those fixed attachments make the cart lurch more?


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

OK so to be clear about my knowledge level, I'm still teaching my Pony how to pull things. We haven't even gotten to pulling a cart yet. However, based on my research, you really have to have a singletree, at least in most cases. Not only will not having one make your cart lurch, it will also lead to your harness rubbing your horse.

At least, that is what I understand from the reading I've done so far.

So I'd guess that's what your problem is. Hopefully one of the more knowledgeable driving people here can comment.

ETA: this is where I bought my harness from. They were recommended by several people. Their customer service has been absolutely outstanding. They could probably walk you through the issue. And in case you need it, here is a page of singletrees they have for sale:





You searched for singletree | Chimacum Tack







chimacumtack.com





And here's more info from their blog (it's an awesome blog): Singletrees and Eveners | Chimacum Tack


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## Vixenna (Jul 17, 2020)

Fixed attachments are fine for neck collar harnesses, they make breast collars rub. However I could probably get one welded on and hope that fixes the problem.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Short on time. Let's see if we can get @dogpatch to lend a hand.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

No criticism here, applauding you for your new adventure. Just hoping to offer things that might help.

The angle of the photo makes the cart shafts look too short. I'm going to say they need to be at least 74" for a horse in the 14-15 hand category, from the tip to the attachment at the cart. Could be just the angle.

Your shafts are several inches too high. The tips should be even with the point of the horse's shoulder. That's probably a lot of your problem.

Neck collars *may* be okay without a singletree, provided everything else is set up correctly. A lot of Victorian carriages were set up with "fixed splinter bars", but the trend moved toward singletrees as they became viewed as more humane. Many a splendid Victorian carriage horse had ruined shoulders in the name of fashion.

The primary reasoning behind the "fixed splinter bar" or fixed attachment of trace to vehicle, is that the point of attachment of trace to collar is much higher on the horse's shoulder blade where it doesn't move as much, whereas the trace-and-breast-collar combination lays closer to the point of shoulder, where the shoulder blade has more movement. The shoulder blade still moves higher up, so a singletree can still allow the traces to swing backward and forward with the shoulder blade.

The lower attachment of your traces to vehicle favors a neck collar, even though a breast collar would be more "common". Breast collars are easy for anyone who doesn't want to fuss with fitting a collar, even though the angle of draft suggests the neck collar.

I am guessing that a singletree and lowering the shafts will go a long way to improving your ride. And if you are going to use the cart for brush-bashing, so much the better. The focus is always on horse comfort and efficiency.

Typically, your traces would pass between the shaft tug billet and the saddle. This helps prevent the traces from drooping when the horse is out of draft.

Another thing that would cause the cart to lurch would be adjustment of the trace length. Check to make sure the horse isn't pulling the cart from the saddle/shaft tugs. That doesn't appear to be a problem from the photo. Sometimes though, a person will clamp the shaft tugs to the shafts, or there may be a "stop" on the shafts, that prevent the shafts from having a little bit of slide, then they'll adjust the traces so long that they never engage, and the horse is forced to pull the cart by the saddle. This causes a lot of woes for the horse, and might cause a lurching action.

Oh, and by "lurching action" I'm assuming you mean back and forth. If the motion is up and down, there is almost nothing you can do with this cart, because up and down motion is entirely a balance problem, and these carts are so fragile in the balance department, that they're virtually impossible to stabilize. 

On the other hand, too-long traces that can allow too much sliding of the shafts in the tugs might also be a problem.

I don't see any trace length adjustment issues in this photo, but those are just some handy little tips to have for the future.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I am far from a knowledgeable person on driving but is the horse a little too big for this cart? Either that or can the shafts be lowered? Just my thoughts about what I see in the picture


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## Vixenna (Jul 17, 2020)

Thank you so much dogpatch! That helps a lot!
The shafts are 74" though my horse is 16 hands. Would that require longer shafts for him?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I found you this...
Accurate measurement is important to make sure buggy shafts fit the horse: typically 87 inches in length for draft horses, *75 or 76 inches for most saddle horses*, 60 to 65 or 66 inches for small to large ponies and 48 or 54 inches for miniature horses. 
_





How to Measure the Length of a Horse Cart Shaft







animals.mom.com




_
Yes, the shafts are to short, wheels appear to small and to much pitch on the shafts are all contributing to your issue.
🐴...


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Vixenna said:


> Thank you so much dogpatch! That helps a lot!
> The shafts are 74" though my horse is 16 hands. Would that require longer shafts for him?


My pleasure!! I see horselovingguy has found a shaft measuring site, another good resource may be the American Driving Society. I don't actually have a chart of shaft lengths but I always tended to err on the side of longer than shorter. You need enough clearance so if the horse happens to get into a canter, his legs won't hit the cart. I was actually thinking more in the 85" range, but a typical pair of Amish buggy shafts is about 74" so that was kind of a starting point. I have to admit that I think 74" is too short for a 16 hand horse.

As far as wheel size goes, the larger diameter bicycle type wheels will invariably "taco" much easier when they hit a rough spot. There are much stronger welded-spoke wheels available. These types of carts are always low-to-the-ground with full sized horses. Lowering the shafts will present quite a different picture. 

It may be hard to think about "upgrading" after all the work you've put into this cart but once you get your harnessing dialed in, if things still don't feel right, you might want to see what else is out there before making any modifications to this one, such as lengthening the shafts. It can get to be a "fix this thing, another thing goes bad" with horsedrawn vehicles. The "pipe" carts have a rather bad reputation for the shafts bending easily and wheels folding. Adding length to the shafts changes weight distribution and balance, and may create stress points that can fail just with normal service. Usually the weakest point in the shafts will be that spot just in front of the brace going from shaft to body. The shaft will be rigid behind that point, but flex in front of it. This can become a fatigue/breaking spot. Another brand of cart had additional bracing welded throughout that area, but I failed to find a picture of it on line. Anyway, a longer shaft will likely flex more, so proceed with caution.


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## Vixenna (Jul 17, 2020)

I actually just went and measured the shafts because 74" didn't sound right to me... The shaft length is 81.5". I read a lot about the pipe carts' problems before getting this, but for now while I'm just getting started I will use this and make whatever modifications to it that I can for my horse's comfort, and once I feel like I am a better driver and can better afford it, I will invest in a road cart. I will keep those possible problems in mind!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I think dogpatch made comment before on it truly matters what type of cart this is as to so many things already mentioned...shaft length, wheel/tire size, pitch of shaft and point of connection.
That article I referenced explained more in-depth about that and the equation to get proper shaft length, pitch and harness attachment to the cart {tugs?} so the cart follows but not clip the horses heels.
Not to pick but the first thing I saw and cringed is appearance of how close the horses hindend is to the cart and his legs just walking a plodding walk are going to nearly clip his heels with cart front, forget going at any pace where extension of the limbs is involved...
No matter what those shafts measure to, to my eye the horse is much to close to the cart because of sized for a smaller animal and you are working a larger animal in it..
Kind of feels to me like using a shoehorn to fit....its to tight and I fear for the horses proper movement an allowing the harness to work properly on the body and the breeching strap to hold back the cart along with what I know as, "the traces".

I drove draft teams in heavy harness but some things transfer from light harness to heavy in how it should look, work, or at least I think it does. 
We used several pulling setups from a single pole between horses and swinging tree behind to in-line team and that was ....well, it looked similar to the Budweiser Clydesdales but only 2 horses one behind the other. 
If I drove a single, the horse still appeared further away from the underpinnings of the carriage than what your picture portrays to me and there was shaft room next to the barrel of the animal, this just looks tight to me = good possibility the carts to small for the size of horse.
I truly don't know but it needs figuring out as you are aware... I wish you the very best in this new venture.
I loved to drive...so much you can do and such a different challenge and viewpoint of horsemanship needed.
🐴...


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Vixenna said:


> I actually just went and measured the shafts because 74" didn't sound right to me... The shaft length is 81.5". I read a lot about the pipe carts' problems before getting this, but for now while I'm just getting started I will use this and make whatever modifications to it that I can for my horse's comfort, and once I feel like I am a better driver and can better afford it, I will invest in a road cart. I will keep those possible problems in mind!


81" is a pretty respectable length. An especially long backed horse might need more. I think the angle of the photo makes them look shorter. A very sage driver once said, "Successful Carriage Driving is the sum of a thousand tweaks." Best of luck to you, and have tons of fun!


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

You can easily add a singletree to this cart, which will help with the lurching. And can use the collar with it.


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