# Testing for frame if the horse looks frame???



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Okay, I have a hypothetical question. Can you safely assume a horse such as this carries "frame" or do you have to test for it?

http://www.stallionconnectiononline.com/images/stallion png/MtnViewRanch.png

I was under the assumption that if a horse looked frame, he was frame, and there was no need to test a horse that appeared to be frame, because if he had the pattern that was proof enough. Someone else I spoke to said you could breed two horses that had this pattern if you tested for frame first because one of them may not be a carrier.

Who is right?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If they are tested and one is neg, then yes, you can breed them, and your friend is right on that count.

This horse does look frame to me. However, he has other white going on - sabino and splash IMO. And both of those could cause the markings associated with frame in some examples. If I, personally, was breeding, I would test any horse that is either grade or from a breed that carries frame, regardless of the phenotype presented.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Thank you so much. 

So can a horse ever express frame phenotypically and NOT be a carrier for lethal white (assuming it is not a mistaken identity on the color pattern)?

Because my understanding is that it is actually homozygous frames that are lethal white, correct?

And frame x frame = 25% chance of homozygous frame?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If a horse expresses frame and tests negative for it I would demand a retest. Frame is ONLY lethal when homozygous. 

Every breeding of frame to frame gives you a 25% of no frame, 50% chance of a frame carrier, and a 25% chance of a soon to be dead foal. Anyone who breeds two frame positive horses together is irresponsible IMO.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> So can a horse ever express frame phenotypically and NOT be a carrier for lethal white (assuming it is not a mistaken identity on the color pattern)?
> 
> ...


Yes, Yes and Yes.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> So can a horse ever express frame phenotypically and NOT be a carrier for lethal white (assuming it is not a mistaken identity on the color pattern)?


No, they can't express frame and not be a carrier. What I am saying is that sometimes, sabino especially, and some dominant whites, can make a horse look 'frame-esque". Regardless of phenotype, I would test every horse in a breed that carries frame in the gene pool, if I were to ever breed them.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> So can a horse ever express frame phenotypically and NOT be a carrier for lethal white (assuming it is not a mistaken identity on the color pattern)?


Okay, so the above is really a "no" (unless it's mistaken identity). 

The lady I was discussing this with is actually a breeder of Paint horses, and she was fantasizing about breeding a mare of hers (that to me) looks obviously frame to the stallion I originally linked, and when I asked if she was worried about lethal white she just sort of paused and said she's sure the stallion has been tested and she can always test her mare.

I guess I am kind of afraid I have a better understanding of lethal white than she does. :shock:

I think she's been safe so far because her stallion is tobiano. But several of her mares look frame (to me). Hopefully if she breeds to an outside stallion the breeder will inform her of the risk. That would be the responsible thing to do.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> No, they can't express frame and not be a carrier. What I am saying is that sometimes, sabino especially, and some dominant whites, can make a horse look 'frame-esque". Regardless of phenotype, I would test every horse in a breed that carries frame in the gene pool, if I were to ever breed them.


What if they are expressing the frame overo pattern but aren't really a "frame" overo? Just the patterns seem to match what a frame looks like, which could be caused by other patterns (splash, sabino)

Therefore it's an overo, that looks frame, but actually isn't.

I've seen loudly marked "frame" overo's that are nn for LWOS.

(And then there's my mare who's minimally marked and is nO.)


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Interesting. I guess that would fall under mistaken identity.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

The stallion I linked is " OLWS + "

So that means he DOES carry frame, correct?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes that means he carries Frame.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Of these four horses, only one is frame positive. Can you tell me which one?





































ETA: I have picked these pictures based on claims they have all been tested.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Well, I think I have seen the photo of the black mini before and remember he is frame, so that's cheating I guess. 

If I had never seen that particular photo before, I would guess #4 (due to bald face and blue eyes).

BUT, knowing what I do now, these are my guesses

#1 sabino
#2 sabino (or dominant white?)
#3 frame
#4 splash white


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Well, none of them look frame to me. Either Sabino or Splash so I'm going to guess the black mini carries frame.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

You are both right. The mini is the one with frame. The only give-away is his blue eyes. The chestnut at the top is probably sabino (given that the test for sabino is currently worse than useless), the thoroughbred is dominant white, and the one at the bottom is probably splash (which there is a test for now yay!).

My point is, that some people who didn't know what they were looking at, would see non-tobiano markings, and assume they are frame. Especially the chestnut - the give-away with her is her high leg white. The phenotype of frame is next to useless for determining if the horse carries frame, as you can see with the mini stallion. He has no white on him at all, but thankfully, he was tested by a responsible breeder.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Which is why we should always test for frame!  Can't always go by what you see.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Very cool color examples!


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

That was really educational, thank you!!! I used to be a paint whiz when I was younger, but they hadn't figured out all that mess yet, lol!


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