# Blehh.. This kind of upset me - Flash nosebands...



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

What is a flash used for? Might be a dumb question, but I've never used one...


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Actually it is one of it's uses: Noseband - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

I don't know about western but in english riding

The Flash noseband was developed because you can't attach a standing martingale to a drop noseband. The original use has been forgotton as the noseband has become more popular and is more or less nothing more than a fashon accessory with few people knowing the truth.

I get many people remarking to me that they are finding it harder and harder to find a bridle without a flash attachment.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't know about the origin of the flash, but I have used it on my girl to keep her from chewing excessively. She is in training and I find she is able to concentrate more on me when she doesn't get carried away with mouthiness. Although I don't put it as tight as that article says; I can definitely get a finger in there. My goal is to lose it entirely before too much longer and we are getting there. But boy, oh boy, it sure has helped with this gal.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

I do know the origin of the flash and I use one as well ( without a martingale ) as I find that it helps with the bit position in my mares mouth , and I do think they look better than a drop. 

As with ALL saddlery the right equipment fitted badly is the wrong equipment . 

If people think the description of a flash is bad look up a KINETON


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

That IS one use of the flash noseband but you just don't see people using it like that. I always have at least one or two finger spaces in between it and my horse's mouth. But I believe that was one of the reasons it was originally developed.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Here is a great article Jim Wofford wrote about the Flash:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/coercive-trainin-equipment-jim-wofford-23615/


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

GREAT article by Jim Wofford. I wholeheartedly agree with him when he states "A tight noseband is a vain attempt to disguise the fact that your horse is not ready for the things you are asking him to do." That's why, if you use a flash, don't tighten it all the way! Leave some room for your horse to chew. I will continue to use my flash but I have never ever put it to where the horse can't chew. It's basically just a part of my bridle but my horse doesn't necessarily need it.


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## ShannonSevenfold (Oct 11, 2008)

Well, that's what I'm saying. They're telling to you strap the horse's mouth shut. So tightly that you can't even fit one finger in there? Are you kidding me?


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

ya, i have a flash for my horse but its mostly to help him learn not to evade the bit. but i can always fit at least a finger comfortably in between the strap and his nose. it really helps me out to have that piece there to help remind him that he's not supposed to open his mouth to get away from work. but like others said, its not a permanent thing. hopefully later in his training i'll be able to take it off.
if used correctly, flashes are an excellent tool, but i agree that it should never keep a horse from being able to chew or be so tight you cant fit any fingers in.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I was stupid and got a flash when Vega kept tossing her head. Realized later it was due to the bit.
But I've kept it and used it, mainly because I like the look of it, not because she needs it.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> The Flash noseband was developed because you can't attach a standing martingale to a drop noseband.


Ah, but what were drop nosebands developed for?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Flashes don't teach a horse to not evade the bit. Proper riding, training does - aka the training scale. 

Read Jim Woffords article.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

*Nosebands*

The Flash noseband , named after a now long forgotton showjumper , was devised originally to combine the action of the drop with a noseband that would also provide a point of anchorage for a standing martingale - at one time an obligatory item of equipment for a jumping horse . Obviously the attcahment of a standing martingale to the usuall type of drop noseband would result in an unacceptably severe action on the sensitive nose area. The Flash noseband , therefore , provided a proper solution to the problem .

The Drop noseband .
There are a number of patterns of drop noseband . All of them succeed in closing the mouth ( opening of the mouth or crossing of the jaws , thereby sliding the bit through the mouth and so avoiding the correct action , being common evasions ) . Even more important is the fact that the drop noseband , used in conjuction with a snaffle , alters the whole conception of the snaffle bit. The noseband imposes pressure on the nose , following pressure on the bit through the reins, and the resultant position of the head (i.e. lowered because of the nose pressure ) allows the bit to bear more directly across the lower jaw, exerting a downward and inward force as opposed to the normal upward pull when the bit is acting purely on the corners of the mouth. Briefly , therefore , it is possible to produce very adequate flexion of the lower jaw and the poll, not normally possible with the snaffle alone. The drop noseband, by positioning the head correctly , materially assists the riders control , and although it qualifies as an accessory to the bit, it has its own place in the training of the horse.
The correct fitting of the drop noseband is for the nosepiece, to lie some 6-8cm above the nostrils just below the termination of the facial bones, with the rear strap fastening under the bit and lying in the curb groove. I t should fit snugly but not too tightly and thus should have no excessively severe effect upon the wind. 

Sorry for the book .


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

So what is the difference between a flash and a figure 8?


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

*Nosebands - the grackle*

"....The Grackle Noseband, named after the 1931 Grand National winner who wore one, has the lower straps fastened under the bit and the top one above, with, in the original pattern, a connection at the rear to keep them in place. The nose pressure is consequently localised higher up the face and can be considered as being less restrictive to the breathing than the usual drop noseband and it will also allow a little more movement in the jaws. It will, nonetheless, prevent an evasion of the bit by the jaws being crossed. Properly made, the small nosepiece, through which the two intersecting straps are passed, can be adjusted up or down to increase or decrease the strength of the action. In recent years, the Grackle has been called the 'Figure 8' or 'crossover noseband'...."

This extract is take from 'Saddlery' by Elwyn Hartley Edwards, a world authority on the subject of saddlery and bitting.

I thought this explained the Grackle Noseband very well . I am not eloquent enough to explain it in my own words too well ! 

Obviously I know all my nosebands (and make them) and understand their uses, but I'm a saddler, not an author, so thanks Elwyn ! 

(Sorry for the 'book' - Blame Elwyn!) :wink:


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## FjordFan (Oct 3, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> I get many people remarking to me that they are finding it harder and harder to find a bridle without a flash attachment.


That is actually quite true. Most bridles I look at have flash attachments


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Here is a very educational, excellant read for you:


::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I use a flash because my horse LOVES to chew. even just standing around in a halter, he grinds his tetth, open his mouth, etc. The flash is pretty loose, but it gives him room to play with bit without being distracting to either of us. I know he still has room to move his mouth just because of the massive trails of drool that stream out behind us, lol


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I was advised when I first started riding that using a flash or figure 8, was for keeping the mouth closed, but years later when I started dressage, it was explained as an aid to help position the bit in the horse's mouth correctly, and stabilize it. The horse should still be able to chew the bit, and move it around to a degree.


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## ShannonSevenfold (Oct 11, 2008)

dressagebelle - That is what I was always told the Flash was used for. Hence this thread. I'm still not so sure about using it to keep a horse from chewing?


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> The Drop noseband .
> There are a number of patterns of drop noseband . All of them succeed in closing the mouth ( opening of the mouth or crossing of the jaws , thereby sliding the bit through the mouth and so avoiding the correct action , being common evasions ) . Even more important is the fact that the drop noseband , used in conjuction with a snaffle , alters the whole conception of the snaffle bit. The noseband imposes pressure on the nose , following pressure on the bit through the reins, and the resultant position of the head (i.e. lowered because of the nose pressure ) allows the bit to bear more directly across the lower jaw, exerting a downward and inward force as opposed to the normal upward pull when the bit is acting purely on the corners of the mouth. Briefly , therefore , it is possible to produce very adequate flexion of the lower jaw and the poll, not normally possible with the snaffle alone.


Well I can tell you that doesn't work at all on Icelandics. They are ridden in ridiculously tight drop nosebands and more than one person has commented that they all seem to be stiff at the poll with no arch in their necks. I have seen them flex properly like a dressage horse but only in a curb bit.


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## RedHawk (Jun 16, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> Here is a very educational, excellant read for you:
> ::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


Love that article! Very informative! To the poster who mentioned that Kineton's are harsh, read the info about them in the above article, it's very interesting.

I use a flash to keep the bit still in my horse's mouth and to discourage him from opening his mouth excessively, that said, it is loose enough that he can still manage to grab a mouthful of grass as we go by :roll:


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Flashes don't teach a horse to not evade the bit. Proper riding, training does - aka the training scale.
> 
> Read Jim Woffords article.


no one's saying its the ultimate fix. we're saying that its a good training aid for a horse who likes to mess with the bit and open their mouth


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

If your horse is opening his mouth to evade the bit, then there is a hole missing in the training scale and no flash, will either correct that - or was even created to prevent it.

Again, read Jim Woffords article


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Redhawk

The one thing I can say for sure , 100% accurate , is that in 17 years of making saddlery I have only ever made 1 kineton.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

What an interesting thread.
My gelding is in a grackle noseband - he crosses at the jaw and evades the bit that way. Since being in this noseband (with room to fit a finger in easily when done up correctly) I have found the problem we were having has definitely decreased. He is still able to chew, I believe all horses should be able to freely lick and chew under saddle - it's a sign of being content and acceptance with what they're doing. Besides, if Evo's bit stops squeaking, then you know something's up! Haha!
I've seen tight nosebands with bulges on either side of the leather and felt sick at the image. I believe any horse equipment in the wrong hands can be used incorrectly and hurt horses. I know some people believe if you can't ride in a simple cavesson noseband, then you need to train yourself more and its a problem you must solve, not put on a flash etc. As much as I'm the first to admit, I need to get better at my own riding, I know that having Evo in a grackle isn't the end of the world. It serves a purpose, he is happy in his work ethic, and if the gear is used correctly with the intent of removing with time, I can't see why not. I'd like to get him back down to a flash, but for now, he's in a grackle, and I'm not going to feel guilty by those who try to force the "cavesson way only" down my throat. Not meaning anyone on here is though!
x


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

To Ohmyitschelle

If it aint broke don't try to fix it

I used to ride a bsja showjumper in a kimblewick and a grackle , it was the combination that he liked and was what worked for him.
Any correct piece of saddlery used badle is the wrong piece of saddlery , and by the sounds of it you aren't using it wrong. For those who try to dictate the cavesson only I would say - why have a noseband at all.


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## RedHawk (Jun 16, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> Redhawk
> 
> The one thing I can say for sure , 100% accurate , is that in 17 years of making saddlery I have only ever made 1 kineton.


Do you think that this is because they are harsh or just unheard of? I haven't used them, and hadn't heard about them until I read about them on the website MIEventer posted - Sustainable Dressage.
The writer stated that they had a reputation for being harsh, and maybe they are, but if that's so wouldn't a hackamore, esp. the ones with thin nosebands, be a lot harsher, since all of the pressure is being put on the nose? My thinking was that a Kineton would be somewhat kinder, in that it dispributed the pressure between the nose and the mouth.
Not trying to be argumentative here, just want your opinion. They are a noseband that intrigue me.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

The Kineton or Jobey noseband has a reputation for being harsh.
It gained this by being refered to as a Last Hope noseband - that which was used when all other options had been exausted, on tearaway horses.

As with all pieces of tack from a $5 leadrope to a $10,000 harness if it is not understood or used incorrectly then the person using it needs to re-educate themselves .

A horse should, if handled and trained properly, never get to the point of having to need a Kineton.

Another noseband that I have only ever made one of is a Beucephalus .


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> To Ohmyitschelle
> 
> If it aint broke don't try to fix it
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I completely agree, unfortunately we don't ever fall free from others' opinions. I patiently explain why every time I'm questioned as to why and then have people ask what bit he's in... which is a JP Korsteel Oval Mouth Eggbutt Snaffle, which is incredibly soft and is double jointed, and he loves that too. I think if it makes the horse their happiest, and it's not really harming, I don't see why not. 
Thanks again,
x


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Ohmyitschelle

If anyone complains about you having a grackle noseband show them this








This is JOHN WHITTAKER , maybe they have heard of him ? . If you look closely his horse is wearing , wait for it , a GRACKLE !.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Haha I know grackles are a great trend at the moment, a lot of people are using them for the look they have as a lot of jumpers use them, and more and more are turning up in dressage. Thanks though, I know of John Whittaker.
x


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

Sadly, that's what many people use flashes for. 
In my experience, I've never had to use a flash. I just don't think they're necessary. And if I did, I'd never tighten it to the point where it was cutting off the horse's circulation and his nose was turning blue. Flashes and grackles have a time and place, but enough people misuse them to give them a bad rap.


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