# Looking for current information on the status of the Great Western Trail



## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

A friend and I have this thought rolling around in our _very_ small brains that we'd like to ride the Great Western trail from Mexico to Canada. There is not much information available on the Internet, and what information there is is quite old and probably outdated. If there is anyone on the forum who has ridden any part of the trail, or hiked it, or knows a contact who has, I would appreciate any information you can offer.

We're currently looking at starting March or April 2014 from the Arizona/Mexico border near Nogales, or possibly down near Douglas if I can find a suitable route up past Safford. Once I get above Safford, I am familiar with the trail system on up past Springerville/Eagar and could rejoin the GWT over near Flagstaff. From the maps I've found, it appears the part of the trail from Nogales to above Phoenix is "proposed" but does not appear to be official yet. Same thing once you get up to Montana. Any current info would be greatly appreciated.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I ride section of the Great Western in Utah. Can't say that I've ridden it's length. Just section here and there. Some of the Great Western in Utah is multi-use, Meaning ATV may be found along those sections.

Here is the Arizona Trail. Which make up part of the Great Western in AZ

ATA - Overview Map


From John on Fourcornerstrails.com

"At one time, the Arizona Trail (Mexico to Utah) and Great Western Trail (Mexico to Canada through the Intermountain West), talked about joining (ca 1995), but one is non-motorized and one is motorized, the objectives and visions are sometimes different, and so the trails were built separately in Arizona. The Az. Trail was completed this year, just in time for the Arizona Centennial, and after about thirty years of planning and work. It is nearly all single-track, is a non-motorized trail, and passes through the amazing diversity of Arizona, offering unique desert, canyon, and high country experiences. It is a National Scenic Trail, designated by Congress, similar to the CDT and PCT. 

The GWT through Arizona runs mostly on existing roads, roughly following a corridor up the spine of Arizona similar to the one the Az Trail follows. As Painted says, in Utah and points north, the GWT is often a multi-use trail, with motorized and non-motorized portions - e.g. the popular multi-use Paiute Trail section through the Richfield, UT area. "


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks much! That link is just what I was looking for. Is there anything like that for the rest of the GWT? Looking at one of the maps on the GWT web site, it looked like it is more like a network of trails in Utah, rather than a single designated trail. The guy I'll be taking the trip with lives in Richmond, Ut, just north of Logan. Hopefully he'll be able to get more info from local sources like yourself. I'm actually an Arizona boy and I'm familiar with some of the AZ trail. I had forgotten all about it. Thanks again.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

Omgoodness does your idea sound fun. How long of a trip do you think that will be?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

All I have to say is that it must be nice to have both the time and the energy to ride like that. When I retire so that I have the time, I'll be too dang old............
Lottery maybe????


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Sounds like a blast. I am pea green with envy. Celeste, I would have to play the lottery to win...maybe I will buy a ticket next lottery...I will win bazillions...you and I will ride off down the trail....sounds like a plan


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

AQHSam said:


> Omgoodness does your idea sound fun. How long of a trip do you think that will be?


Best info I have so far is approximately 3,000 miles. I'm expecting it to be a four-month ride. I will likely have to take a break in the middle to attend my daughter's high school graduation, but otherwise we're hoping to do it all in one ride. Several family members and friends want to ride portions of it with us. I would even invite members of the forum on board for portions, although we want to keep the party small, for logistical and environmental impact reasons. As we get farther along in planning, if anyone is interested, let me know.

It's going to take a ton of planning and I'm still not sure we can do it logistically (or physically). We'll need a lot of help on the support side. That's where family and friends will come in. On top of that, I'll be 55 and my buddy will be in his 60s, so we're going to both have to start on our conditioning pretty soon. Right now this is just in the "I want to..." stage. We'll see how it pans out.

When I was in high school my dad and I wanted to take a pack trip from Tucson, AZ to Panguitch, UT, where he was born and raised. We had one chance to do it just before I got married and couldn't make it happen. So when my buddy mentioned he'd like to ride the GWT a couple months ago, the thought just sort of sprouted and took root. My dad, at 78, wants to ride part of it with us. He'll turn 80 during the trip, if we go when planned.

We'll have a ton to work out before we can even make a "go-no go" decision. It appears the route has been pretty much established now, so that will just be a matter of getting maps and GPS coordinates, but working out water matters and re-supply stops, logistical help, horses, and equipment, and last, but not least, money, will be the challenge. We may look for sponsors, or even adopt a cause to publicize, and look for funding help that way. I don't really think horses/mules and equipment is going to be a big challenge, but fuel for vehicles for logistical help and feed will be expensive, and if we could benefit a good cause at the same time, that would be a plus.

I've been looking at my gear with a critical eye recently and I think I'm going to have to start collecting new gear. I don't think my current saddle will make it (a 1947 Hamley) without a complete restoration. Maybe time to try my hand at building a saddle. Not even sure my horse is the right horse for this trip. Need to get her on some long trips to see how she handles mileage. I expect I'll be asking for a lot of advice regarding trails, routes, training, administrative stuff, and other things from forum members as I prepare.

I have to say, though, it's been a long time since I was this excited about a trip. If I had to lay a bet, I'd say this one is going to happen. Got to get my ducks in a row first, though.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Thenrie, I am the same age as you, but there is definitely the chance that I have a lot more mileage on me than you do.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I was up in Yellowstone this past August and met some folks, The one fellow introduced the couple he was with as being famous, I asked what for and he said they had rode from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean. Over 3000 miles across the USA. In talking with them, I asked how long it took. They replied 21 months. They said they average 15 miles per day. So you can tell they did not push it very fast.

They did not have any support vehicles with them. Everything they brought with them was on a pack horse. They planned their route to take advantage of natural feed and to avoid the busier roads. Being in the southern climes during the winter months and northern parts of the country during the summer. They were often at the mercy of local folks taking them in for shelter or a place to lay up for a day or two to rest their horses.

The Great Western Trail is 4455 miles long. ( but some of that is duplicate where several trails cross the same parts of a state) In fact in Utah it is often referred to as a "WAY" vs a trail, since there are multiple routes across sections of the state. Some for ATV's some for non-motorized.

Here by my home, most of the trail is at pretty high elevations, So it would only be traveled during the months when there is no snowpack. In Utah most of the trail is on public lands, And good chance, depending on the season, that you could hobble your horses and let them graze and not need a support vehicle hauling feed. And while I've always found water during my rides. Having a knowledge that water would be available at appropriate intervals would be important for horses doing that kind of work.

A couple of photos from along the Great Wesern Trail

Near Mount Ogden









Near the Griffin Top on the Aquarius Plateau Central Utah









Near Blacksmiths Fork in Northern Utah


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks for those pics. That's what it's all about. Beautiful!

The 4455 miles includes all the various possible routes and trails in the trail system. The site you gave the link for last post indicates the distance is about 3,000 miles, although the distance by car is only 1,553, so I think that the 3,000 mile number is probably exaggerated as well. Even with all the twists and turns a trail takes, I can't believe it would be twice the distance as taking a road. I may be deceiving myself, but I still think we can do it in 4 months. Even at 2,000 miles that's only 17 miles per day. I plan to track our trip on GPS, so by the end we'll have a definitive mileage we can report for future travelers.

Apparently the trail in Arizona is a single designated trail that is well marked. In Utah, you have just confirmed that it is still a system of trails, so we'll have to select our routes and trails and be able to know which fork to take when we come to it. I talked to my riding buddy there in Utah and he's going to do the research for the Utah leg, while I handle the Arizona planning. My main concern will be water for the AZ and southern Utah portions of the trip.

I expect we'll take one, possibly two pack animals, but it is unlikely we'll be able to be self-sustaining. I'm pretty sure we'll need resupply help, particularly during the southern Arizona portion, where we'll likely find little good grazing and less water. We'll probably have to pack some feed and maybe water for certain stretches. 

I'm looking forward to this. I hope we can do it.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

What an amazing ride, I am so jealous. The pictures are beautiful. Talk about trail riding at it's finest. What an incredible way to clear ones head and leave all your troubles behind. 

Painted horse, not only is the scenery beautiful but your horse is too.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

That is one of my mares and good friend riding her.
My mares are my babysitters that I can put anybody on.









There is often water in many of the canyons of Southern Utah. Especially during Spring snowmelt


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you go, give me a holler. I live in AZ south of I-10 not far from the trail & would be glad to help. This is probably within 10 miles of the trail. Very little water out this way:


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

@BSMS
That looks like the Rincons in the background. I spent my high school years in Tucson. If you haven't been up on Reddington Pass yet, you should take the time to go. Get up on top over by Bellota Ranch Road and just ride back in there. I spent a lot of my youth up there exploring and tracking deer and javelina. When we get this together, I'll get in touch with you. It would be nice to have a place where we could stop over or drop supplies. Thanks for the offer.

@painted horse
Where are you located? I was figuring northern Utah until I saw the pics that look like Bryce Canyon. I have some cousins that are outfitters in the St George area.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm in northern Utah, But I ride in the Southern portion of the state when the weather is cold up north and I ride up in Wyoming and Idaho in the summer when it gets hot. 

So I am pretty familar with the country from St George on the South to Yellowstone on the North.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Well, plans have already changed. Had to move the departure to spring 2015. Daughter graduates high school in June 2014. Can't miss that. Then wifey wants to move back out west as soon as daughter graduates. Mom doesn't like Virginia and it appears we'll be moving closer to the kids and granddaughter. So, 2015 makes more sense, especially since I may be living out that way by then. A shorter haul to start the trek and easier to take some shorter prep trips along portions of the trail as we get ready.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

That will give you time to get your horses legg'd up. The country in Utah is far from flat. 

You will be crossing one mountain after another


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Keep the pics coming! I can't wait. I dream day and night of "crossing one mountain after another." Heading for AZ this month to see my folks. Dad and I plan to do a couple short day trips while I'm there. Maybe an overnighter or two. They live in the White Mountains. I'll post some pics. Apparently things greened up after the fires, but there is still a lot of dead standing wood and a lot of areas are still closed.

There is no place out here in VA to get a horse "legged-up". Hopefully I'll be able to get my mare out west for at least several months before the trip and get her into shape for the hills. Starting out at the Mexican border near Douglas, AZ will help as well. The first week or so will be at fairly low elevations. From what I see of the trail map, knowing something of the region, very few portions of the AZ Trail will reach 7000' or higher. That should help get the horse ready for northern Utah and north of that.

I'm starting to look at saddle trees. I don't think my old Hamley will make it without a total restoration, besides the fact that it doesn't fit my mare well. I'm thinking about building myself a new saddle. There's nothing like getting ready for a big trip...except for the trip itself.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I had 9 guys come out from South Carolina in late August. They brought their flat land horses with them. I rode for 5 days with them at 8,000 to 10,000 foot elevation, doing about 18-20 miles a day. Their horses did just fine. What ever riding they did at home prior to the trip had gotten them Legg'd up just fine.

Don't accept that there is no place in VA to condition your horses. Get them in shape for long rides in VA and they will do just fine out west.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Good to hear that. The Shenandoah NP is within about two hours of me, and they boast about 180 miles of trails. I was mostly concerned about the elevation. My dad's place in AZ is at about 7,000', so I've never worried about it when using his horses. 

The biggest headache about riding out here is all the regulation. In the Shenandoah they even have a rule that if you can see your horse's hoof prints you have to stay only on graveled trails. Hoof prints? Sheesh! Heaven forbid your horse leave droppings on the trail! Somebody might step in it! And forget horse camping in the park. The brochure says overnight camping with a horse is allowed, but discouraged. Huh? So you tell the warden...I mean ranger, you want to camp and he says what? "Well, I'd rather you wouldn't"? So they put regulations on it that make horse camping almost too difficult to be any fun at all. Give me the USFS and BLM lands out west every time.:-|


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Thats a National Park for you. Bryce Canyon NP is not any better. You have to stay on the trail. If you meet the guided horses coming your direction, You have to back up to the last cross or intersecting trail and go down that trail so the guided horses can pass. They will ticket you for side passing off the trail to allow them by. ( and the guides always have the right-away, it's assumed your horse, you know how to ride it, Guided horses with tourist don't know how to ride)

You want to make sure before you start down the Bryce Canyon Peek-a-boo trail that you checked with the guide outfit and found out when they expect their horses to be coming back up the trail.

But you are correct about most of the west. In fact after the cattle get done with the grazing permits, who will notice a few hoof prints


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Painted Horse said:


> Thats a National Park for you. Bryce Canyon NP is not any better. You have to stay on the trail. If you meet the guided horses coming your direction, You have to back up to the last cross or intersecting trail and go down that trail so the guided horses can pass. They will ticket you for side passing off the trail to allow them by. ( and the guides always have the right-away, it's assumed your horse, you know how to ride it, Guided horses with tourist don't know how to ride)
> 
> You want to make sure before you start down the Bryce Canyon Peek-a-boo trail that you checked with the guide outfit and found out when they expect their horses to be coming back up the trail.
> 
> But you are correct about most of the west. In fact after the cattle get done with the grazing permits, who will notice a few hoof prints


You know, I was a fed govt employee for 23 years and had finally had enough of the goofy stuff. Not that I'm anti-government or anything, but some of the decisions some folks make that bind everybody are really goofy. Problem is that they don't know how goofy it is when they make the decision, sitting there in their office, then you have the folks who have to enforce the goofy rule, all the while knowing how goofy it is, then you get folks like us who expect them to use common sense, but they can't because it's a rule, then we all get crosswise and nobody is happy. Huff...puff...ok. I'm done.:evil:


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I hate those goofy, not though out rules we put up with in our daily lives. Anytime now I'm expecting to hear I have diaper my horse in wilderness areas if I want to ride there. I don't know anything more natural than an animal taking a dump in the great outdoors. Why am I expecting this? Because of all the comments I get from hikers about how disgusted they are having to step around horse apples.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Darrin said:


> I hate those goofy, not though out rules we put up with in our daily lives. Anytime now I'm expecting to hear I have diaper my horse in wilderness areas if I want to ride there. I don't know anything more natural than an animal taking a dump in the great outdoors. Why am I expecting this? Because of all the comments I get from hikers about how disgusted they are having to step around horse apples.


You can't imagine my surprise, being a western boy, when I learned that horses are not allowed on the Appalachian Trail. I was looking forward to trying a ride from Florida to Canada while I'm out this way, but when I started the research found out the trail is for hikers only. Ah well, too many people live out here anyway. Too many people, too many goofy rules. What is that Isaiah said? 

"Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (Isa 5:20)

You know, Arizona has taken some great strides in putting an end to a lot of those goofy rules in their forests. After the devastating fires of the past several years in AZ, several counties got together and passed resolutions defying the USFS. Over the past 10 years or so, the USFS has been closing roads and restricting access to the forests, not allowing vehicular traffic and not allowing any logging. The result has been forests that are over grown with undergrowth and with small trees growing too close together. Now with the closed forests, there is no way to control fires either. The old logging roads are overgrown and not passable. So several AZ counties passed resolutions telling the USFS that the roads are county property and that the counties are responsible for the welfare of their citizens, therefore they are going to re-open the forests and all the closed roads in perfect defiance of the USFS. So far the USFS has not challenged it. We'll see what happens. I've been told other states are watching to see what happens. I expect Utah will follow suit and do the same thing.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

thenrie said:


> @BSMS
> That looks like the Rincons in the background. I spent my high school years in Tucson...


Yep, those are the Rincons. I went to Santa Rita High School back when it was brand new. When I retired from the Air Force, Tucson seemed too crowded and too expensive. We're on the south edge of Vail.

Here are some pictures of central Utah from our vacation there a couple of weeks ago:




























The guy in the picture was told his winter allotment for his cattle is being cut 85%. He's trying to get the BLM guy to go out into the desert to see the land with him and convince him otherwise. If not, he may have to sell his herd of cattle and go back to all sheep until he can find other grazing. He thought his odds were good...haven't talked to him to see how it came out.

He once was told all allotments were being cut 50% permanently. He said, "That won't affect me, because I'm only running 15%!" The government guy replied all allotment were being cut based on the number RUNNING, not the number paid for. And no, that guy had never gone to see the land he was supposed to be managing. That was 25 years ago, and he nearly lost his ranch.

Another old college room mate was working for the state and sharing an office with the US Forest Service. The USFS guys were constantly complaining about the "maggots", a term they applied to both cattle and sheep. They wanted to remove ALL domestic animals from the forest and reintroduce grizzlies...


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

In the old days, the USFS, BLM, and the Farm Bureau were govt entities dedicated to assisting ranchers and farmers in successfully ranching and farming. They actually did a lot of good in helping them develop water sources and access to range areas. Nowadays the government attitude is to protect the forests and ranges FROM the ranchers and farmers. It coincides with the environmental movement. I can't say the environmental movement is all bad, but it surely has swung the pendulum way too far to one side in recent years, for my taste. I suppose it is hard, these days, to find a person with the education and qualifications to hold decision-making positions in agencies like BLM and USFS who is not an "environmentalists", but it would sure be nice if an administration (ie, president) would appoint heads of agencies who are sympathetic to farmers and ranchers and get the agencies back in balance and assisting farmers and ranchers in being successful using environmentally sound methods. In Arizona all they think about is increasing the elk and deer herds, which are already at historic highs. You can now pick up range leases for a pittance, because you sure can't make a living on them.

I think the main problem is that a large portion of the population of the US lives in the most densely populated parts of our country, so they really don't see all the environmental issues and the impact of what they vote for. All they know is that they want to preserve the environment. It's sad that folks who only take occasional vacations into the western lands make so much policy for those who actually live and make their living there, without fully understanding the real issues and the effect their votes have.

Back a while, there was a company in Panguitch, Utah called Verd's Best that made the best honey you could buy. They went out of business when I was in high school. I was told it was because the BLM came to them and told them they were going to have to pay a fee of 25 cents per hive because their bees were using BLM land to produce honey. Since it was a family business, they simply didn't want to deal with the govt any more, so they quit and retired.

I'm hoping that one can still ride their own horse/mule through the Grand Canyon by the time I make my trip. That's something I have wanted to do all my life. From what I read, you can still do it, as long as you stay on trails approved for horse travel, camp only in designated camp grounds, take your own feed, and travel at your own risk (you are responsible for removing dead or injured animals at your own expense). I imagine it won't be too long before only registered outfitters under contract with the park are allowed.

Enough politics. Better get back to info about the GWT and AZT. Fun discussion, though, and thanks for the pics.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The environmentalists would be less irate if it weren't for the few ranchers that actively want to remove most of the native wildlife from government lands. Loud mouths on both sides cause themselves and others problems.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Utah has been fighting the Federal Govt for over a decade for roads in Southern Utah. Some of those battles were in place before Clinton signed into effect the Grand Staircase Escalante, So I know they date back into the at least the mid 90's.

Kane county in particular has defied the feds and sent road graders into closed roads to grade and maintain them. So those battles are not coming, They have been ongoing for 15 or more years.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765574587/Utah-counties-sue-BLM-over-disputed-roads.html


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

thenrie said:


> You can't imagine my surprise, being a western boy, when I learned that horses are not allowed on the Appalachian Trail. I was looking forward to trying a ride from Florida to Canada while I'm out this way, but when I started the research found out the trail is for hikers only. Ah well, too many people live out here anyway. Too many people, too many goofy rules. What is that Isaiah said?
> 
> "Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (Isa 5:20)
> 
> You know, Arizona has taken some great strides in putting an end to a lot of those goofy rules in their forests. After the devastating fires of the past several years in AZ, several counties got together and passed resolutions defying the USFS. Over the past 10 years or so, the USFS has been closing roads and restricting access to the forests, not allowing vehicular traffic and not allowing any logging. The result has been forests that are over grown with undergrowth and with small trees growing too close together. Now with the closed forests, there is no way to control fires either. The old logging roads are overgrown and not passable. So several AZ counties passed resolutions telling the USFS that the roads are county property and that the counties are responsible for the welfare of their citizens, therefore they are going to re-open the forests and all the closed roads in perfect defiance of the USFS. So far the USFS has not challenged it. We'll see what happens. I've been told other states are watching to see what happens. I expect Utah will follow suit and do the same thing.


Same issue here in Oregon with our state and federal lands. Difference here is they are actively removing what roads are there to protect water sheds. When I say removing they are not blocking off the roads, they are ripping them out with heavy equipment. Makes it just that much harder to fight fires on badly managed gov't lands.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Ripping them out is just dumb. That will cause erosion. And of course they need to be able to fight fires. And how is mass destruction with bulldozers less invasive than somebody riding a horse?
Where do people get these ideas?


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

They have done that a lot in Utah. In fact a lot of the Topo maps are all based on 1978-1980 surveys and are obsolete compared to what you can find on Google Earth which are based on recent sattelite photos.

In 2000 while riding in the strawberry area, They had a track excavator take 5 miles of road out. The road had been closed for 10+ years. But ATVs frequently went around the signs and rode along the road. So heavy equipement literally ripped the road to pieces. It was very unpleasant to ride a horse down what remained. I remember thinking at the time, " What a horrible mess the Forest Service just created".

Winter snow, summer rains, the passing of natural game and herds of cows and sheep have turned what was a very rough mess into a reasonible trail that we still ride. And it didn't take long. They accomplished what they set out to do. Stop the ATVs from driving along that route.

This is that same road, 12 years later.








The trees are missing where the road was. The ground has erroded off what once was a flat track, into what you see as slope. The rough up and downs have erroded into a level trail. I can't guess how many cow and sheep hooves have beat it down to what you see. It still shows on the National Geographic Topo maps I print out as current road.

In fact the 9 riders I had out from South Carolina in August commented. that as they watched their GPS as we rode, that we were riding on what their GPS's showed as roads, That were nothing more than trails.

Another example that used to be a road. You can see the flat road bed with only a single track now in use









Other examples are the canyon that I hunt. The Forest Service closed that road in 1983. I remember as a kid riding with my dad up that road in our pickup truck with a camper on the back and actually seeing a cadilac pull a boat up that canyon. Once the road was closed. Mother nature took over and has washed the road out entirely. In fact in 2008 it totally flash flooded and took out 4-6 feet of earth down the entire canyon. It was really tough to even get the horses up what was left of the canyon. The rancher who ownes the grazing permits, brought a track-hoe in and did a little work to remove some ledges and at least make it horse and cow friendly so he could herd his cattle up the canyon to graze.

You can see how high the old road bed was vs what has erroded off. The old road bed is higher than my friends hips sitting on a 16H horse.









Here the Forest did nothing other than let nature take it's course.

In many areas I've fine with what they have done. closing down some roads has returned much of Utah to a more natural state. But I don't approve of their more recent actions as they get more agressive in closing more used roads. It is one thing to close down a old loggin road. It is something else to close down a county road that has been main tavel route for those who live in the area.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

The problem with what the USFS has done in Arizona, is that they won't even allow many of the trails to be maintained, even in areas that are not Wilderness or Primitive. You can't even negotiate on a horse the trail up Mt Baldy anymore. Fallen trees are so thick you just can't get up it. They won't let anyone go up with any kind of power saw to clear the trail, and it's just USFS land. I know of one ranch whose land was landlocked by USFS land, except for one lane that had been in existence since long before the USFS acquired the surrounding land. The USFS could not lock the man out of his ranch, but they forbade him from improving the road. He could not even grade it.

Down in the Blue Wilderness Area, there are some absolutely wonderful trails, but these last few years some of them have become impassable, due to erosion and fallen trees. Again, they won't allow folks to maintain them, even the ranchers. And these are designated, named trails you can find on the topos. Some of them are in the Boy Scouts registry as sanctioned trails, like Steeple Creek Trail.

Still, I don't complain all too much about the Blue, because I like to get back in there where nobody else goes! I'm hoping to get back in there next month for a day or two. I'll try to get a couple good pics.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

thenrie said:


> The problem with what the USFS has done in Arizona, is that they won't even allow many of the trails to be maintained, even in areas that are not Wilderness or Primitive. You can't even negotiate on a horse the trail up Mt Baldy anymore. Fallen trees are so thick you just can't get up it. They won't let anyone go up with any kind of power saw to clear the trail, and it's just USFS land. I know of one ranch whose land was landlocked by USFS land, except for one lane that had been in existence since long before the USFS acquired the surrounding land. The USFS could not lock the man out of his ranch, but they forbade him from improving the road. He could not even grade it.
> 
> Down in the Blue Wilderness Area, there are some absolutely wonderful trails, but these last few years some of them have become impassable, due to erosion and fallen trees. Again, they won't allow folks to maintain them, even the ranchers. And these are designated, named trails you can find on the topos. Some of them are in the Boy Scouts registry as sanctioned trails, like Steeple Creek Trail.
> 
> Still, I don't complain all too much about the Blue, because I like to get back in there where nobody else goes! I'm hoping to get back in there next month for a day or two. I'll try to get a couple good pics.


I believe that is quite deliberate on their part. If those in charge of the USFS came right out and stated they plan to shut down thousands of miles of trails there would be a huge pushback by the public. Instead they've chosen a path that will take a bit longer but ends up with the same results with the added benefit of being slow enough most the public doesn't see what's happening. Around here it only takes 1-2 years to become annoying for horse and bicycle. After 3-4 years it will reach the point not worth going down due to brush and downed timber. Hikers will go for another couple years before they give up. So in less than 10yrs a trail can go from heavy use to completely back to nature.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Showdown at the H2O Corral

Spotted owl could be game-changer in Tombstone water war

When I worked for a bit for the US Forest Service in 1980, it believed in multiple use. It has now gone way over into preservationist mode. Sad, IMHO.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Took a couple days down on the Dry Blue in eastern AZ. Had a great time with my dad and nephew. I rode my Dad's little QH cutter. He's only about 13.5 hands, but he'll out-walk and out-last any horse I've ever had him around. He's a grandson of Doc Olena. He's great on the trails and never hesitates to go where I ask him to go. Dad rode a Halflinger and nephew was on a QH Ap. Had a great time.

As a side note, with respect to the trail dog thread, I've about decided our mule, "Honey", is about the best trail dog one could ask for. We let her run loose and had a ball watching her antics. She ran around us, bucking and farting, and having a ball charging around through the brush and up and down banks. Funny mule. Gentle as she can be.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I frequently ride in an area where I let a horse run loose. It's great fun to see them enjoy the freedom

BTW, Saw this sign the other day on a ride


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Where is that? Looks like up near Logan or Cache Valley.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Foot hills above Layton


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## prairiewindlady (Sep 20, 2011)

thenrie, have you ever tried riding in the Mt Rogers area? It is rough country....mountain after mountain and many miles of trails. And it's in VA


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

I believe Mt Rogers is a bit south of me. I'll check it out. I'm going to need to put some mountain miles on my horse to get her rounded out. Thanks.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Spent most of November in Arizona with my parents. Dad and I were able to put some trail miles on the horses. Thought I'd post a few pics. They are the area around Eagar, AZ, between about 4500' down on the Blue, to near 9,000' just south of Eagar. Scared up several elk up in the higher elevations. Wasn't cold enough to drive them lower yet. We had exceptional weather the whole time, as you can tell. 

Second to last photo shows some of the area that burned a couple years ago in the Chedeska/Rodeo fire. More than 550 square miles burned. Got right up to Eagar, but the town and much of the surrounding area was spared. Deer and elk are moving back into it now. It's actually kind of pretty riding through it, in spite of all the black toothpick-looking dead trees. Now you can actually see the topography and it's rather striking. Before all you could see was green boughs of the pines that were growing too close together to allow the trees to mature (since they cut off logging many years ago). In a few years it will be all meadows and bare hillsides for the most part, but it's recovering nicely.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

The ash is a pretty good fertilizer. So you get some great growth in the grasses and other plants that didn't do much in the shade of the mature forest. I find the elk and deer move back into a burn unit pretty much the next summer. 

I love hunting those areas, the game animals seem to think they are in trees and forest and hidden, But we can look across canyons and see into the burn area, making it easier to see the animals.

It take a lot of years for those burnt trees to disappear. I was noticing in Yellowstone this summer how many blackened trees still stood from the fires of 1989, Thats 23 years and they still stand. We see lots of signs at trail heads in areas that burnt warning to watch out above, The 15-20 years dead trees are starting to fall and topple in the wind and during storms.

Here is a view of the East Fork of the Bear River that burned in the mid 90's. Lots of new green growth has replaced the mature spruce and pine forest. Young Quaken Aspine are replacing the spruce trees. This has been 14-16 years since the fire.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

This thread is excellent info for if we ever make it to the US. 

Thenrie, I know you´re debating about the mule/horse choice for packing, but do you already have your riding horse pìcked out? (that little haffie is too cute for words, by the way). I thoroughly recommend starting your own conditioning as early as possible, and we´ve done pretty well with long slow riding for our horses - we are all flat where we keep them but on our recent trip they had no problems with three days of hills.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

AnnaHalford said:


> This thread is excellent info for if we ever make it to the US.
> 
> Thenrie, I know you´re debating about the mule/horse choice for packing, but do you already have your riding horse pìcked out? (that little haffie is too cute for words, by the way). I thoroughly recommend starting your own conditioning as early as possible, and we´ve done pretty well with long slow riding for our horses - we are all flat where we keep them but on our recent trip they had no problems with three days of hills.


Well, I'm trying. I hope to start in March 2015. I am working on a QH mare right now (the one in my avater), but I'm still not sure she's "the one" for the trip. The Halflinger is not mine. It belongs to my nephew. Problem with him is that he eats too much! Great horse, but for my trip I need an easier keeper. I am trying to decide whether to use horses to pack, or whether to use mules to pack and a saddle horse, or to just get three mules. As for getting me into shape...well, I can tell you that you are a lot younger than I, but I've spent a lot of time in the saddle during my time. I think I'll be ready. You and your boyfriend are welcome to join in for a bit if you're in the area:wink:


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## Josh (Jan 19, 2012)

You should really think about starting a blog... That way others may live vicariously through you while only finding time for three or four miles a couple times a week in between kids and work. Lol... Thanks for sharing!


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## justicehorse (Oct 17, 2012)

That's a good idea. It could turn into a cool book with lots of amazing pictures, like the one Robert Redford did when he rode the outlaw trail.

FYI, I camped/rode on the GWT just outside Torrey, Utah. That stretch is quite fun. Depending on time of year, there is a short spur to an amazing and fairly unknown waterfall that is worth checking out.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Actually, I am planning on starting a blog. In fact, I have been considering starting a full website for the trip. I am considering making it a benefit ride for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. I thought having a website might help in getting sponsors to help with costs and bring in contributors for the JDRF, while also allowing others to enjoy the trip vicariously. I've even thought about inviting a videographer along to document the trip. As far as I've been able to find out, nobody has ridden the entire GWT in one trip before. There are a few that have traveled over the entire trail, I believe, but I can't find any information where anyone has made it in one trip. Because of that, there is no documentation I can find as to how far it really is to go from the Mexican border to the Canadian. I plan to take a GPS unit and document my route, travel times, etc, for the benefit of future riders.

However, with all these thoughts comes the realization that the more people I involve, the more complicated things become. I would really like to keep things as simple as possible. If the benefit and sponsorship thing becomes too burdensome, I won't do it. In all likelihood, if I want a videographer along, I'm going to have to hire one. I'm not sure I want to do that either.

So, it may just end up a blog and a bunch of pictures. We'll see as I get farther along in the planning.


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## prairiewindlady (Sep 20, 2011)

I am an amateur/hobbyist filmmaker/videographer, having gone to school for communications and worked as a professional photographer for a number of years....and I would be happy to help out any way I can I have been following this thread with interest as I have similar aspirations as far as long treks go...I am currently planning to backpack the 68 mile VA Highlands Horse Trail in the spring, along with my 2 Grayson Highlands ponies who will be accompanying me as pack animals.


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## Josh (Jan 19, 2012)

The website could also offer some advertising opportunities....


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

Wow! What a fantastic goal.... I would die to do something like that!! Some of the scenery pics you guys posted is breath taking! 
I was looking into doing something similar, though using the Trans American Trail which (when I read about it a number of years ago) was supposed to include horse trails...all I can find out about it now is it is mostly for off road motorcycles. I would still like to try to ride it though.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

this sounds like a great ride I hope you will have some body keep use up to date when you go


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

prairiewindlady said:


> I am an amateur/hobbyist filmmaker/videographer, having gone to school for communications and worked as a professional photographer for a number of years....and I would be happy to help out any way I can I have been following this thread with interest as I have similar aspirations as far as long treks go...I am currently planning to backpack the 68 mile VA Highlands Horse Trail in the spring, along with my 2 Grayson Highlands ponies who will be accompanying me as pack animals.


Like I mentioned, the plan is to start out at Douglas, AZ on or about March 1, 2015. As far as I can determine from maps, etc, the route will be somewhere between 1500 and 2000 miles (Google puts it at 1152, as I recall, by roads, although the websites for the GWT indicate somewhere between 3,000 and 4452 miles of trails in the system) and end up at the Canadian border in Montana. I expect the trip to take about 4-5 months. 

The plan is for a friend of mine and I to do the trip together, but his situation is a little different than mine, so I don't know whether he'll be able to make the full trip. In fact, I doubt he will, however I have several friends and family who have expressed an interest in doing portions of the trip with me. So, my thought is that I would open up the trip to other people who might also wish to do a portion of the trip with me as well. This is going to complicate planning, while at the same time, might simplify logistical support.

If we were to be able to plan for pick-ups and drop-offs of riders at specific places, I could use those stops for re-supply as well as dropping off and picking up riders. I expect to take two pack animals and that should be sufficient for myself and one other rider (2 people, 4 horses), so the incoming riders might also need their own pack horse, depending on the numbers, which I would try to keep down to 1-2 extra riders between stops. I think I could make most of the stops between 3-5 days apart. It would take extra time, but if the incoming riders were willing to contribute to the supplies expense (provide food and feed) and make a contribution to the charity, it might be worth the extra time and would take care of my re-supply needs for much of the trip.

So, there are my thoughts so far on the trip. Having a videographer along might actually pay for itself, since some of the folks coming along for the ride would probably be willing to pay for videos of their portion of the trip, like folks do on commercial outfitted trips.

As far as equipment, I'm starting from scratch. In all my years of camping and packing, I've mostly used my dad's equipment, since I moved a lot with my career and couldn't store it. I have now retired and am able to start accumulating my own gear and animals. I'm planning to build my own saddle and pack saddles (something I've always wanted to do). I have one horse I'm working with right now and have an eye open for a second. I'm starting to accumulate horse and camp gear that I'll need. I'm learning basic farrier skills and have basic farrier tools. 

I'm planning to take a GPS unit of some sort, a good camera with an image stabilizer (as a backup if I can get a videographer) and possibly take a notebook computer and sat phone. I am planning for a solar charger unit to keep things charged. I would be able to update my website on my progress whenever there was cell or sat coverage. Since communications and computer stuff is changing so rapidly, I plan to wait until just before I go to purchase that stuff, but I'm starting to research it now, just to keep apace with the technology.

I'm not broke, but not wealthy either, so I'm trying to start accumulating gear now, so as to avoid a huge spending spree just before the trip.

So, you can also see why I'm considering making a website about the trip. I figure a lot of folks might like to keep track of my preparations as well as the trip.

Still, when it all comes down to it, I'm not as young as I used to be. I'll be 56 when I start the trip. My buddy will be in his 60s. We both have wives and families. A lot could change in a hurry between now and then. I'm taking one day at a time and trying not to get too far ahead of myself.

I attached a pic of my partners in crime, Penny and Clancy. As of now, it looks like they'll be accompanying me on the trip. The saddle is a 1947 Hamley I inherited from my wife's family. It's worn out, though and in need of a refurb. It is a little narrow in the gullet for Penny, though, so I'm planning on building a new saddle to fit her a little better - broad flat back. 

My dad recently gave me an old "cactus saddle" that I'm going to rebuild and duplicate. It appears to be from around the 1880-1920 time frame, although all that was left was the tree and pommel cover. I'm rebuilding and duplicating the tree now, and learning a lot in the process. I've recut the bar angle to 90* to better fit a modern horse, but leaving the cantle as-is. The duplicate saddle will be built with "full-QH" bars to fit my mare. I'm expecting to learn how to rawhide a tree this winter and hope to have the first saddle covered with leather by spring.

I guess I need to quit wasting time and get at least a blog started. Sorry this post is so long. Any information about the GWT is appreciated on this thread. I'm learning a bit about the AZ portion, but my knowledge of the rest is pretty scant. My buddy is supposed to be researching the Utah portion, but neither of know anything about the trail north of that.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

These four guys are going to ride your route, mexico to Canada on wild mustangs.

Maybe you should keep tabs on how they do and what routes they follow.

Unbranded by Ben Masters — Kickstarter


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Painted Horse said:


> These four guys are going to ride your route, mexico to Canada on wild mustangs.
> 
> Maybe you should keep tabs on how they do and what routes they follow.
> 
> Unbranded by Ben Masters — Kickstarter


Oh! Great link! They are going to beat me to it. That should help a lot with my trip. I'm looking forward to tracking their progress. I expect to be able to take a lot of good information from their trip. They are planning their trip for next year (2013) and will be doing it at the same time of year as my trip. 

They are looking for sponsors and are hoping to make a feature film of it if they get sufficient donations. They are doing it to benefit wild mustang preservation. I recommend the site to all.

By the way, I just purchased the web domain westerntrailrider.com today. I plan to use it to host blogs and a forum for folks who want to document their trail rides and offer information for others regarding their routes, water, feed, regulations and other information relative to western trails. I plan to document the preparations for my ride on the Great Western Trail in 2015 in a blog on that site as well. It will be a while before I actually get it up and running, because I'm not very smart.:think: I have a pretty smart son-in-law who I think will help me get it up and running. Eventually I hope it turns into a good clearing house for folks like us who spend their time trail riding, or at least dreaming about it.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

A $5 donation will get you on their blog and newsletter so you keep up with their progress and problems. Should give you some great insight into what you need to plan for.


Down load WordPress and start using it. It's free and you will be a pro in no time for creating your blog or website.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

I think I'm going to make a $20 donation, so I get a peek at their video. You don't see many college age graduates doing stuff like this. Maybe we'd have fewer problems in the world if more of them did. I'm rooting for these guys. I'd like to see them get it done.

I already installed Wordpress and a bunch of other stuff to my site. I just have to wait for the domain to come up. I should be able to get rolling on the site in a couple days.


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## Josh (Jan 19, 2012)

Any questions on gear that cross references backpacking let me know. I've done lots... Glad to help...


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

I just re-read the rules and noticed that promoting other websites and forums is prohibited unless a link is created from the other website to this forum. Sorry admins, didn't mean to break a rule. I will create a link from my site to this forum. My site and forum will be pretty specific to western trailriding...once I have it up and going. I hope I didn't get myself banned, as I intend to continue to participate here!


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Ok. For anybody interested, I have actually started my blog. I'm documenting my planning and preparations for my trip on the Great Western Trail. You can follow it at westerntrailrider.com/wp or go to the website and select the "My Blog" link at the bottom. There's no profit motive in this and I'm not selling anything, and it's not very professional, but I'll try to put all the good and useful information in it that I can.

An yes, I put in a plug for horseforum.com.


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