# Green horse questions



## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

Hey guys! So I just got my very first horse about two months ago. She is a 12 year old green thoroughbred mare. When I first got her, she was very skinny and had absolutely no muscle. I decided that I wanted to take progress pictures of her so that I could put them up side by side and see if her condition had improved any. I noticed that she almost looked worse in some aspects. Her muscle had gone up and her fur is a bit more shiny, but it looks like her top line has gone down and her ribs are showing more. Is this normal? Any advice?!(I’ve been riding for about 11 years now but I have never owned until now so I have a bit of experience and knowledge) 

The bottom one was about a month after I got her(I was strictly doing ground work) and the top one was from today(about two months in and I have been riding her)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, yeah, hard to say from that one part-pic of one angle, but she looks about the same weightwise. And she doesn't necessarily look too thin now, tho again, hard to say for sure only having one pic.

You do NOT want to pack food into them in order to pack weight on quickly, it's not good for them. I'm guessing that if you've only owned her a couple of months & she looked like that after a month, she probably was only a little on the thin side, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but could be due to gut probs rather than just lack of calories. 

Her lumbar spine is a bit... interesting. Almost looks disconnected from her hips. I'd get a bodyworker to check her out.


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## FizAndAztec (Mar 29, 2021)

It doesn't look like her ribs are showing too bad at all in the photos. It looks like she may have put a tad of weight on. I have a horse that I needed to put weight on, and I also came here for advice. The best advice I was given was patience. As mentioned above, two months isn't all that long. I've had my guy for 3 months now and he is just starting to look good now. 

I do agree with @loosie , a body worker may be a good idea. 

She also looks like she has a bit of high whither (same as my boy), which can make the topline a little more prevalent in their upper body too. 

Glad to see those wounds healed so nicely though!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So the top photo is more recent than the bottom one? I would also be a little concerned that the spine seems to be protruding more now than when you got her. Nothing to panic about, but you may want to increase your feed a little. What is she getting for daily feed, and how many feedings do you do? What is she getting for exercise?

There is something a little unusual about her build. That is a very straight back and croup. Chiropractic or body work would give you an idea of what may be going on, and give her some suppleness. When you exercise her, you should also do it with those goals in mind - getting her to engage her back and carry herself, though it is a long, slow process as others have mentioned. It may be wise bringing in a trainer a couple of times to give you some tips on how to do that effectively.


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

loosie said:


> Hi, yeah, hard to say from that one part-pic of one angle, but she looks about the same weightwise. And she doesn't necessarily look too thin now, tho again, hard to say for sure only having one pic.
> 
> You do NOT want to pack food into them in order to pack weight on quickly, it's not good for them. I'm guessing that if you've only owned her a couple of months & she looked like that after a month, she probably was only a little on the thin side, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but could be due to gut probs rather than just lack of calories.
> 
> Her lumbar spine is a bit... interesting. Almost looks disconnected from her hips. I'd get a bodyworker to check her out.


Yeah I have been really concerned about her back recently. I’m younger so I am on my parents budget and I have been trying to convince them to get a vet or a body worker out to look at her. Thanks for the reply!


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

Acadianartist said:


> So the top photo is more recent than the bottom one? I would also be a little concerned that the spine seems to be protruding more now than when you got her. Nothing to panic about, but you may want to increase your feed a little. What is she getting for daily feed, and how many feedings do you do? What is she getting for exercise?
> 
> There is something a little unusual about her build. That is a very straight back and croup. Chiropractic or body work would give you an idea of what may be going on, and give her some suppleness. When you exercise her, you should also do it with those goals in mind - getting her to engage her back and carry herself, though it is a long, slow process as others have mentioned. It may be wise bringing in a trainer a couple of times to give you some tips on how to do that effectively.


Right now she is getting about a scoop and a half of nutrena senior twice a day, amplify, wheat germ oil, alfalfa pellets, hay twice a day, and she is out on grass all day. I probably rode her about 4 times a week. Just small walk/trot rides and occasionally canter as she is still learning how to do that. She is currently seeing a chiropractor about every two months. We may need to think about upping that though. Thanks for the advice!


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

FizAndAztec said:


> It doesn't look like her ribs are showing too bad at all in the photos. It looks like she may have put a tad of weight on. I have a horse that I needed to put weight on, and I also came here for advice. The best advice I was given was patience. As mentioned above, two months isn't all that long. I've had my guy for 3 months now and he is just starting to look good now.
> 
> I do agree with @loosie , a body worker may be a good idea.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Ughhh waiting is so hard!!! 😂I have been trying to tell myself that it just takes time but I just want to make sure we are on the right track.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So the diet seems pretty solid, but I'm not sure what hay twice a day means. Out on grass all day I get, so do you mean that you bring her in at night? In the afternoon? And how much hay? Free choice might be a good idea at this point. 

And in terms of exercise, I wasn't thinking so much about how strenuous it might be, but rather, how she is learning to hold herself. That's hard to teach, but is more effective than just poking along in terms of building topline. If that is beyond your or her skill level, you can also do lots of hill work which is also quite effective. 

Otherwise, the others are right - it takes time. Great that you're already doing chiro!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Tatertoteq said:


> Right now she is getting about a scoop and a half of nutrena senior twice a day, amplify, wheat germ oil, alfalfa pellets, hay twice a day, and she is out on grass all day. I probably rode her about 4 times a week. Just small walk/trot rides and occasionally canter as she is still learning how to do that. She is currently seeing a chiropractor about every two months. We may need to think about upping that though. Thanks for the advice!


I wouldn't up the chiropractic adjustments, have her adjusted, then have a massage therapist, or vise versa. Muscles have a memory, when something is adjusted into alignment, the muscles will pop it back out unless they are relaxed and adjusted too. Your parents will get more value if you have a body therapist work on your horse and visits will be not nearly as frequent. My therapist does acupuncture, red light therapy, deep muscle massage then she adjusts. When I first used her, instead of just the chiropractor, I had her out twice in 6 months, second time she did all the therapy on my 3 horses but only 2 needed any significant adjustments. Now I have her come once a year and she said they are staying in alignment much better and not nearly as rigid as I do the muscle massage myself probably bi-weekly. It has made a difference. This will save your parents a lot of money if your horse gets the full meal deal and someone shows you how to help her stay in alignment.


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

waresbear said:


> I wouldn't up the chiropractic adjustments, have her adjusted, then have a massage therapist, or vise versa. Muscles have a memory, when something is adjusted into alignment, the muscles will pop it back out unless they are relaxed and adjusted too. Your parents will get more value if you have a body therapist work on your horse and visits will be not nearly as frequent. My therapist does acupuncture, red light therapy, deep muscle massage then she adjusts. When I first used her, instead of just the chiropractor, I had her out twice in 6 months, second time she did all the therapy on my 3 horses but only 2 needed any significant adjustments. Now I have her come once a year and she said they are staying in alignment much better and not nearly as rigid as I do the muscle massage myself probably bi-weekly. It has made a difference. This will save your parents a lot of money if your horse gets the full meal deal and someone shows you how to help her stay in alignment.


I will definitely look into all of that. Thank you SOOOO much!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

in my opinion, she does look thinner, or at lease NOT more filled out than the earlier photos (the lower one). I can understand your concern. She appears to have a 'hunter's bump", and I would guess that only chiro adujustments can help with that. I assume (judging from your obvious care of her diet, that you are a caring owner) . . . that you have a well-fitting saddle, no?

If the issue is only her looks, then I'd say just keep at it another month or two. If she is going poorly, lame, sour tempered or other indications of pain, well, that's another story.

Those have got to be the best 'before and after' comparison photos I've seen;; perfectly identical in position,, angle, etc. Well done there!


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I notice on the top picture, this is the most recent one I think, I see some marks on her side and it looks like some bites or kicks. Is she out with other horses and are they chasing her or being mean to her? this might be why she is a little thinner in the second picture.


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## michaelpeace.tx (Dec 13, 2020)

Do you know what diet & feeding program she was on before you got her? What you're giving her now sounds good, you may want to look into adding some beet pulp to her grain also (soaking half a scoop or so in water w/ her grain mixed in). Can you notice any change in her hoof one way or the other? That may also indicate if her diet is better or not than it was previously.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

For a horse underweight, and she still is...she needs more calories consumed than she is using daily.
You riding her, no matter w/t or galloping her is burning calories she needs to use to build weight on her body and good nutrition to build muscle.
So, my scoop is 3 qt size... is a bit over 3 pounds when filled, gently heaped with Ultium Competition pelleted feed.
Guessing your food will be similar in weight to qt. size....
So...you're feeding approximately 7 pounds of feed a day...
We can't figure in accurately the Amplify as you not give amount fed so....????
You sit at combined NSC about 18% which isn't bad in your feed...

I went to Nutrena website and did a bit of reading...
I estimated your horse should be 1200 pounds which is a very common weight for a 15 -16 hand Thoroughbred and she is in moderate work with being ridden 4x a week and she needs to gain weight...
Two things jumped off the page at me...the site said this food is not recommended for this animal.
That means it might not be able to meet her dietary needs when it only gives 1,300 calories per pound of food fed for a total of 9,000 calories total fed by you feeding 7 pounds of food.
The next thing I discovered when I scrolled past that first estimate how much to feed...
Between .7 - 1 pound per hundred pounds of what she should weigh = _12 pounds of feed she needs a day, in addition to her hay/forage fed.._
Bottom line is she needs more food fed to gain and flourish, double the amount of what you are giving.

Now you can go with a different food product that offers more calories per pound.
Quality food by other manufacturers though.
Triple Crown Complete or Senior offer nearly 1600 calories per pound.
Purina Ultium offers almost 1900 calories per pound is already rich with Amplify in the recipe.
If you are concerned with NSC... Ultium is 17%..
I do not know what TC is...
All of these food choices are at Tractor Supply Stores where it seems many are now horse food shopping.
Good food costs good money and the better recipes also are very similar in costs cause quality ingredients cost to use, period.

To me, you want to supply a much as you can in appropriate amounts for the horse to thrive without having to add this, that, something else and then more again...
The principle of KISS... Keep It Super Simple is old, but....it also fits. _{there is another similar saying but rude and I don't like it!}_
The more that is in the recipe fed of the food then less supplementing you need to do..
I can tell you that I feed Ultium, have Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses on it and they look magnificent.
Its not cheap, but I get results in healthy animals that look great and act fantastic...it does not make my horses stupid or flighty, nor do I need to add anything...
Simply scoop and feed them...KISS.
Today Ultium also has in the recipe gastric support for those who may suffer gastric upset, this seems to be very beneficial.
I know the TS by me can't keep the product on the shelf anymore so many feed it and are happy with the results.
I myself have tried the Triple Crown Senior and my one horse refused to touch it did not help me to get weight and keep it on him...

So, although what you feed is "decent" there is better out there available.
You feed her 12 pounds of your current food, or if you were to switch to Ultium daily 8 pounds meet and exceed her needs their feeding directions ay...then you tweak as she gains and blossoms...but you always feed for what the horse should be, not what it is weight wise and if the horse needs to gain you feed the higher amount given when they give a sliding scale is how it is done.
But, if you don't wish to change feed, then you need to feed more of it...much more as the horse needs to be eating about 33,000 calories a day and she is getting roughly half by my math with what you currently are offering and my guesses at how much you are giving.
Someplace, somehow you need to up the ante of calories fed in for what the horse uses daily being a horse and then being a horse who is ridden 4x a week burning off calories pleasing you.
The fill in your horse needs is some of the hardest areas to cover on a horse.
But, the horse is lacking everywhere on her body when I look at the pictures, she needs to fill in everyplace.
And no, I don't think you have a hunters bump.. You have a thin horse, period...._she needs to gain weight. _Once she fills in and gains bet that SI/pelvic girdle joint is covered on soft flesh.

If this is a improvement from when she arrived,_ good for you and better for her._
Now though is when it gets tough to put weight on cause she is slightly covered, you now need to add the fat pad at her wither, cover her spine, cover her hip point, cover her pelvic girdle, fill in her flank, cover the tailhead and buttock back...her shoulder point I bet is pointed not rounded and she has a thinner neck than she should...
She is a work in progress and is already pretty coloring, but will be gorgeous when she is fleshed out completely.
If she is turned out with others during feeding time...make sure she is indeed allowed to eat in peace and her fill of the food provided, not fleeing a aggressor who chases or beats her up...
If she is not stalled for her feed ration, it is something to consider or stand guard so she eats her full ration in peace can also make a big difference.
That's my opinion on what I see and what you are feeding.

And a big one many not realize...till you completely heal the insides you don't see improvement on the outside.
You have started the healing process, but it is ongoing yet...remember that work in progress...that is your mare!!
🐴... _jmo..._


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

Acadianartist said:


> So the diet seems pretty solid, but I'm not sure what hay twice a day means. Out on grass all day I get, so do you mean that you bring her in at night? In the afternoon? And how much hay? Free choice might be a good idea at this point.
> 
> And in terms of exercise, I wasn't thinking so much about how strenuous it might be, but rather, how she is learning to hold herself. That's hard to teach, but is more effective than just poking along in terms of building topline. If that is beyond your or her skill level, you can also do lots of hill work which is also quite effective.
> 
> Otherwise, the others are right - it takes time. Great that you're already doing chiro!





Acadianartist said:


> So the diet seems pretty solid, but I'm not sure what hay twice a day means. Out on grass all day I get, so do you mean that you bring her in at night? In the afternoon? And how much hay? Free choice might be a good idea at this point.
> 
> And in terms of exercise, I wasn't thinking so much about how strenuous it might be, but rather, how she is learning to hold herself. That's hard to teach, but is more effective than just poking along in terms of building topline. If that is beyond your or her skill level, you can also do lots of hill work which is also quite effective.
> 
> Otherwise, the others are right - it takes time. Great that you're already doing chiro!





tinyliny said:


> in my opinion, she does look thinner, or at lease NOT more filled out than the earlier photos (the lower one). I can understand your concern. She appears to have a 'hunter's bump", and I would guess that only chiro adujustments can help with that. I assume (judging from your obvious care of her diet, that you are a caring owner) . . . that you have a well-fitting saddle, no?
> 
> If the issue is only her looks, then I'd say just keep at it another month or two. If she is going poorly, lame, sour tempered or other indications of pain, well, that's another story.
> 
> Those have got to be the best 'before and after' comparison photos I've seen;; perfectly identical in position,, angle, etc. Well done there!


Currently I am just using some pads to make the saddle for while I search for the right saddle for her. We are considering getting a saddle fitter out to help us with that. I had been doing some research about her bump and kind of though it was a hunters bump but I’m glad to have confirmation. Thank you!


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

Woodhaven said:


> I notice on the top picture, this is the most recent one I think, I see some marks on her side and it looks like some bites or kicks. Is she out with other horses and are they chasing her or being mean to her? this might be why she is a little thinner in the second picture.


Yes there are quite a few bites. Fortunately I know which horse is doing it so I am trying to rearrange pastures to separate them. She normally eats by herself to avoid having them chase her away. Thank you!


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

michaelpeace.tx said:


> Do you know what diet & feeding program she was on before you got her? What you're giving her now sounds good, you may want to look into adding some beet pulp to her grain also (soaking half a scoop or so in water w/ her grain mixed in). Can you notice any change in her hoof one way or the other? That may also indicate if her diet is better or not than it was previously.


I’m relatively sure that her diet is similar. The person that I bough her from really didn’t have a clue what she was doing and did not give me a very good idea about what she was eating. I had never considered beet pulp before but I will definitely look into that. Thank you!


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## Tatertoteq (May 18, 2021)

horselovinguy said:


> For a horse underweight, and she still is...she needs more calories consumed than she is using daily.
> You riding her, no matter w/t or galloping her is burning calories she needs to use to build weight on her body and good nutrition to build muscle.
> So, my scoop is 3 qt size... is a bit over 3 pounds when filled, gently heaped with Ultium Competition pelleted feed.
> Guessing your food will be similar in weight to qt. size....
> ...


Oh my gosh thank you so much for doing all of that research for me!!!!!! I feel so relived to hear all of that. I will definitely get her food worked out. I am currently at a boarding barn so I will go to the manger and sort that out! I can not thank you enough for the advice and encouragement!!!!


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