# Orphaned Foal



## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok guys I'm back..

Lots of you would have seen my other thread about my two rescue mares that are in foal. I was going to post this on there but I figured I should create a new thread so there weren't to many topics on the first one. So, a friend of mine contacted me tonight, someone she knows rang her about a foal. His mother broke her leg (I think she went through a fence but I don't have all the details yet.) Apparently they don't want the foal and tried to palm it off to her. She rang me because she knew I had foals on the way and thought he would have a better chance of growing up without major behaviour problems. I have always said I wouldn't have a poddy foal but it looks like I've been proven a liar.. I'm hopeful that I will be able to track down a foster mother for him but haven't been able to find one so far. (I will be making some more calls tomorrow) I have raised a lot of other animals but only one foal. (Through work when I was at a thoroughbred stud) Honesty she was a handful for a while there but there were a lot of other people who handled her and honestly I think she was treated a bit to much like a dog and not enough like a horse. Ok I'm expecting some constructive criticism here because if I was hearing this thats exactly what I would say. 
They are hard work, they need socialisation and an experienced handler or else they can grow up to be very dangerous.. 
This is not something I am taking on lightly. Honestly I will already have a lot on my plate and this is a big commitment but he is facing a pretty grim alternative at the moment.. Which is super sad.  
So I've done a lot of additional research, most of it seems like common sense stuff summed up pretty much - treat them like a horse, not a dog. 
I have a lot of experience working with foals and yearlings so I'm not taking this on lightly. I will fill you guys in with any additional info when I get it but so far I know its a stock horse X, 4 week old colt. I'm not sure if it was an unplanned pregnancy or whats going on as to why they don't seem to want or care about the baby. I haven't spoken to them personally but will let you guys know more when I know.. 
Has anyone here reared any foals before? Got any advise? Constructive criticism is most welcome guys but please try not to burn me down in flames. 
Thanks.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Geez...you gave me a heart attack, I thought this was going to be a post that you lost one of the new mares foaling out!!!

I read enough to see that's not what happened, now I can go back I reading the actual thread!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I've raised 2, and helped with a couple more, and you are correct. They are cute cuddly little things, but they are NOT puppies. If it wouldn't be cute to do at 1100 pounds, don't let them do it as a foal. Habits are harder to break than they are to install.
Make sure the little one has a companion to hang out with, even if its just a friendly 'uncle' gelding. Once your coming foals are a few weeks of age, they would be good for him(?). 
Feed well, but don't over feed. There's often a fine line between feeding enough to grow on, and enough to do harm. Better just a bit thin than too fat.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I am hoping the foal was not orphaned before it got the necessary colostrum?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I thought the same as Egrogan and was starting to get very sad. Funny how you get invested in a couple of horses you only know over the internet. LOL

I've never raised an orphan foal so I can't help you out there but I have raised puppies, kittens, raccoons and a fawn. It takes a lot of time and commitment so make sure have both before taking it on.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

You didnt give the most important part "age of the foal" By this time of year my have long since been weaned and on to their new homes or in a pretty structured show fitting program. If the foal is over 90 days, we would have already weaned it, so the mare doesnt really matter, but if it is under 60 days it may need some supplement. If the mare doesnt make it to the first 30 days, we destroy the foal and will transfer the breeding to a different mare


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

get milk replacer, feed regularly, be very firm in your rules and get him out with others ASAP. I know two that were orphaned like that and turned out great.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

BugZapper, OP is in Australia, which means, I believe, that their breeding season is just now starting. From the wording I'd be shocked if the baby was even a few weeks old.

OP, good luck! I have a friend working with a nurse mare foal (similar situation). Hers was taught how to bucket feed so there wasn't much of an association between you and the bottle. I know it takes some patience and practice to get them to bucket feed though. You may be able to contact Last Chance Corral through their website (it's a US based nurse mare foal place, and they don't adopt out their foals till they are bucket feeding) and see if they can give you tips on how to handle this situation including if you do wish to learn how to bucket feed.

Definitely be firm with the rules! And don't pity the foal by letting it get away with stuff! Treat it like a normal foal


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

At 4 weeks, he can do just fine. I wouldn't bother with a milk replacer. He probably will not accept it and it will just be a waste of money. He should of been eating hay, pasture and grain with his dam. Continue that. You can try a milk replacement product that is pelletized and you just add it to the grain. Try to identify one of your other horses that he can be turned out with that will teach him some manners and keep him in line. Keep him outside if at all possible. He is going to be too big and aggressive with the new foals until they are closer to weaning age.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

bucket feeding has been a very easy concept to teach in my experience. Once they realize the bucket is full of milk(may take dipping their lips in it a few times)they suck it right up.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

BugZapper89 said:


> You didnt give the most important part "age of the foal" By this time of year my have long since been weaned and on to their new homes or in a pretty structured show fitting program. If the foal is over 90 days, we would have already weaned it, so the mare doesnt really matter, but if it is under 60 days it may need some supplement. If the mare doesnt make it to the first 30 days, we destroy the foal and will transfer the breeding to a different mare


Yes, she DID give the age.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> If the mare doesnt make it to the first 30 days, we destroy the foal and will transfer the breeding to a different mare


 so instead of just feeding the foal, you kill a living healthy foal and rebreed another mare? Am I reading this right? Gosh I hope not.

I have personally owned one that was orphaned at 4 weeks, and it outgrew both parents by 3 and stood 16hh. My BO has had two, both of which matured into healthy horses of expected height.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Subbing. I have a feeling I missed a post or something?


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> so instead of just feeding the foal, you kill a living healthy foal and rebreed another mare? Am I reading this right? Gosh I hope not.


No. We all read it the same way.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Hey guys, sorry I should have thought the title through a bit better. My bad. I did mention he is a four week old colt but I did go on and on in the original post so maybe you missed it. Yep I'm planning in putting him straight on the bucket and I have an older gelding who is one of the quietest horses ever. He is very level headed and never been nasty or a kicker. I'm planning on hopefully buddying the baby up with him. When weaning time is approaching they will go into the paddock with the mares and foals for a few weeks until the foals all know the older horse. Then I'm planning on taking the mares away from the foals and leaving them with him as a nanny. This is the way we weaned at the studs and I found it to be minimally stressful to both mums and bubs. I have put a lot of different animals on a bucket before. I've found if you just dip your fingers in the milk them put it in their mouth then lower your hand down into the milk they pick it up before to long. I'll be sure to post some pics when I can. And although I'm trying to to cross the threads I will mention that both the mares are doing great!!!!! I'm stoked with their progress even just this week and it ooks like there will be baby pics on that thread soon too.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

The most imprtant thing you can do for him is give him lots and lots of horse interaction and minimal human interaction. I owned a Thoroughbred filly who wasnt even orphaned until 2 months, but her owners didn't put her with other horses for fear that they would hurt her. When she can to me as a 14 month old she wasn't completely out of whack, but there were some very drfinite differences between her and other horses. She really didn't know how to interact with them and constantly got beat up. I had too just let her go though it though, and learn the hard way. It took about 5 months but she did end upo becoming a normal member of society. It would have been much easier for her if she had learned that while baby chewing still worked on the adults. At 13hh the adults weren't nearly as willing to give her slack when she pestered them or didn't understand their warnings.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Yep that's exactly what I was thinking. I'm hopeful that Kye (my older horse) will be pretty tolerant of him. I have another horse but he is 17hands and has a nice double barrel that he isn't shy about using on the other horses. He can be a bit of an a**. Handling wise I'm thinking I will handle him like any other foal. Teach him to lead, touch all over and pick up his feet. Aside from that try and stay hands off whenever possible. Put him on the bucket straight away and once he is doing that it will be hands off at feed time so hopefully he doesn't associate humans as the milk bar to much. Once the new foals a a couple of months old hopefully they will be big enough to put them all out together. But I will just have to play it by ear. I don't know how big his is yet or how big he will grow and I'll have to wait and see how full on he will be. Hopefully Kye will teach him some manners though. Anyway, all this is worst case senario. Im still crossing my fingers I can track down a foster mare. Wouldn't that make life easier!


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

BlueSpark said:


> so instead of just feeding the foal, you kill a living healthy foal and rebreed another mare? Am I reading this right? Gosh I hope not.
> 
> I have personally owned one that was orphaned at 4 weeks, and it outgrew both parents by 3 and stood 16hh. My BO has had two, both of which matured into healthy horses of expected height.


You have to.factor in the cost and risks of the asset and then make a cost wise choice.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> You have to.factor in the cost and risks of the asset and then make a cost wise choice.


 No, you don't. I know many people who run breeding operations and I've never heard of people killing month old foals. In fact, that makes little sense for a quality operation. Why would you throw away a year(or more) of feed, vet bills and a viable product? No matter wether you look at it from a quality live stock perspective, or from that of someone that actually values a life, it makes little sense. I don't even know any ranchers that run that way.

It would make sense, however, if you were mass producing a poor quality product....


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

BugZapper89 said:


> You have to.factor in the cost and risks of the asset and then make a cost wise choice.


If you have as "high end" horses as you lead us to believe, that would just be "penny wise and pound foolish". Seriously. How much more does it cost to feed that foal than it would have cost had it not been orphaned? Not much when you are talking expensive stock. Figuring in the investment you already have to just put that foal on the ground….just to kill it really sounds just ridiculous and makes no financial sense. You may as well just flush all that $$ down the toilet. 

Most folks would at the very least, try and find someone to take it. 

I certainly do not understand the thought process behind that statement at all.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

It coat a lot on the additional payroll and milk replacer to start then factor in the additional work to ensure it doesn't act like a dog. Even breeding world caliber horses its a gamble. If the bloodlines are easy to replace ie if I have a full sister to the Broodie or one of very similar lines the foal must be worth well over 15k as a weanling and have a buyer on deck for me to consider a bottle baby. Once they hit the 30 day they will make it on their own with some good management.


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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> so instead of just feeding the foal, you kill a living healthy foal and rebreed another mare? Am I reading this right? Gosh I hope not.
> 
> I have personally owned one that was orphaned at 4 weeks, and it outgrew both parents by 3 and stood 16hh. My BO has had two, both of which matured into healthy horses of expected height.


Good I has hoping I wasn't the only one who read this and was worried...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

BugZapper89 said:


> You have to.factor in the cost and risks of the asset and then make a cost wise choice.


Oh right. And never mind the fact its a living breathing creature. Do you drown puppies too? What's wrong with giving it to someone willing to raise it?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

BugZapper89 said:


> It coat a lot on the additional payroll and milk replacer to start then factor in the additional work to ensure it doesn't act like a dog. Even breeding world caliber horses its a gamble. If the bloodlines are easy to replace ie if I have a full sister to the Broodie or one of very similar lines the foal must be worth well over 15k as a weanling and have a buyer on deck for me to consider a bottle baby. Once they hit the 30 day they will make it on their own with some good management.


That's all well and good for you as what sounds like a big-time breeder.

However, the OP is NOT a big-time breeder. She is a person who is taking in an orphan foal out of the kindness of her heart. She has no "big money" riding on the foal and if she can provide the proper care and environment for an orphan foal, then more power to her. 

You telling her to basically euthanize the foal is neither helpful nor warranted. She didn't ask IF she should take it in nor did she even ask for opinions on that. She asked if her plan of action was a solid one. 

OP, I think it's great of you to take in this orphaned foal. I think your plan of action sounds like a good one. I'm glad that you are not falling into the trap of "but it's just a baby" and already know to be firm so that the foal doesn't grow up to be a "giant dog." You do realize that pics of the little tyke are mandatory, yes? ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

how kind you are take him. pictures soon ? Sounds like you have it all under control.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My mare adopted a foal altho not that young. She couldn't nurse it but she sure looked after it, and the foal learned the ways of the herd (all four of them).


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok here he is. Sorry for the rubbish photo I'll try and get some more later. I'm just letting him settle for now before moving him into his yard with a fresh stable. Poor little guy is feeling pretty miserable at the moment. He had a bit of a rough trip (The roads out where I live are shocking) and is very much missing his mum.  I'll be putting my gelding in the yard next to him very shortly. Hopefully having another horse near by will make him feel a bit better. He hasn't had any handling yet (I put the halter on while he was on the float) So he pretty much hates me at the moment. I'm sure it won't take long for him to come around.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

BugZapper89 said:


> It coat a lot on the additional payroll and milk replacer to start then factor in the additional work to ensure it doesn't act like a dog. Even breeding world caliber horses its a gamble. If the bloodlines are easy to replace ie if I have a full sister to the Broodie or one of very similar lines the foal must be worth well over 15k as a weanling and have a buyer on deck for me to consider a bottle baby. Once they hit the 30 day they will make it on their own with some good management.


Interesting. I didn't know there were horse factories.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh, what a precious little guy! Poor baby!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Ok here he is. Sorry for the rubbish photo I'll try and get some more later. I'm just letting him settle for now before moving him into his yard with a fresh stable. Poor little guy is feeling pretty miserable at the moment. He had a bit of a rough trip (The roads out where I live are shocking) and is very much missing his mum.  I'll be putting my gelding in the yard next to him very shortly. Hopefully having another horse near by will make him feel a bit better. He hasn't had any handling yet (I put the halter on while he was on the float) So he pretty much hates me at the moment. I'm sure it won't take long for him to come around.


Oh, I look at that poor baby's eyes, he is so sad! You'll help him to stop feeling so lost and alone, now that he's home.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Best of luck with him!! He is adorable.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Thanks guys. He is currently munching on some hay which is a relief. Any idea what colour he will be? I was thinking bay or black?


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

no help on the color guess but he is ADORABLE lol

you could also look up "Last Chance Corral" theyre a rescue here in Ohio i think? that take in PMU foals and do an outstanding job of raising them and getting them adopted out. im sure if you were to contact them and explain your situation they would have lots of advice and tips theyd be willing to offer....if you were interested of course lol


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Without knowing sire and dam colors, my guesses would be brown or black on color for him. His slightly cinnamony muzzle have me thinking brown, but the mousiness of his coat almost make me think black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Sire was a black stock horse. No white marks. Mother I'm not sure I will have to ask.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

He looks very healthy which is great! Hope he settles in smoothly!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

What a beautiful baby! I can't believe the owners didn't want him. 

I know the halter is important, but I personally wouldn't leave a rope halter on a loose horse (foal or otherwise) because if he gets his foot caught in it or something there is no give and he could break his neck or leg. 

Please disregard if you weren't planning on leaving it on. But I felt I should mention it because of the safety factor.

Gosh, I adore his face markings! Lucky you!!!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

If you brought the life into this world, you should take responsibility for it, not dispose of it like garbage because it takes a little extra care than you anticipated. Not to mention the thought that a breeder is too cheap to buy milk re-placer. :shock:


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

What an adorable little baby! He looks like he will go black to me. Thank you for taking on this resposibility! It sounds like you have it under control, and I am sure he will come around in no time!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

natisha said:


> Interesting. I didn't know there were horse factories.



actually, there are. the racing industry has many similarly harsh, business-based practices. I think there are some really big QH breeders who approach it much like a factory. Though I was a bit shocked to read that, I don't doubt it. most of us don't approach horses as a business, so we might not really understand that viewpoint. Not saying I agree, but it must make some sort of dollars and cents sense. I doubt they do it out just being cruel.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I would never make a dollar raising horses, I care about them too much. 

I look at each as an individual life worth saving and working with to the best of my ability. I don't care if the horse is worth $100,000 or $1.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The OP States the foal is about four weeks old.

What I have found with orphan foals os to get them out with a sensible kindly older horse. They teach them the manners they need whilst acting as a security blanket.

Getting a foster mare to accept a foal is not very easy. Some mares will take easily but most will not and it can take weeks to get them to accept, some never do so you have to keep arching and holding them to let the foal feed.

Although I have reared many orphans I have always been able to have a foster mother whether they are feeding or not. 

At a month old it would be easier to get him to bucket milk feed and onto solids.

You must be nuts! A big undertaking.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I am most definitely crazy!! I will be putting him on the bucket straight away. He hasn't had a good feed yet but is eating hay really well. Yes the rope and halter came off.  I just did a little bit of halter work with him. The rug I him in the photo is just a large dog rug. It also came off shortly after the photo. All in all he is doing well. He met my gelding through the fence this arvo and got a tiny nip when he tried to suckle off him. Poor old Kye wasn't thrilled but wasn't nasty. I'll see how they go over the next few days before I introduce them officially.


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## Cat by the Sea (Jun 30, 2014)

Oh, what a cutie! You're doing a great thing taking in the little guy. When I was a kiddo, I got to be peripherally involved in raising an orphaned foal. She got just the right balance of experience with other horses and experience with people, and turned out to be an all-around stellar horse. It sounds like you have the resources to do well by your orphan. Looking forward to updates as he grows up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I would have had an awfully hard time saying no to taking him in. Such sad eyes just makes my heart melt. Too bad we're thousands of miles apart because I have a mare who would take him on. If she didn't have her own foal I could never keep her in the mare & foal pasture because she would try to steal babies.


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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

Oh hes such a cutie your doing an awesome thing taking him!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In the UK there's been a National Foaling Bank for years now - set up by Johanna Vardon in Shropshire. 
She links orphan foals owners with owners of mares that have lost foals and if it works it gives the foal a better chance to grow up normally
The biggest problem with hand raised foals is that they can grow into real monsters that are difficult to handle (the mare I lost this year aged 23 was hand reared and destined for slaughter age 3 because her owners treated her like a dog with no boundaries - she was not an easy horse to turn around)
Another foal for company as soon as they're weaning age is great for them and right now a good kind older horse - geldings seem to work best - as a companion


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

My mare was a brilliant 'nanny'

As a four year old I turned her out with a pregnant mare that was refusing to eat. The mare's owners had kept her at th National Sud and they sent her away because she was looking so poor. She would not do more than pick at a little grass. 
My mare would herd her to a feed bowl amd stand there whist the brood mare ate, taking a few nibbles, dod the same with hay. When they came in at night they shared a stable. 
The mare went off to stud to foal and be covered. She had a filly and after a couple of weeks the stud called to say she was not eating.
I loaded my mare, took her to the stud and put her in a small paddock. The stud owners went crazy as they said it would be dangerous. My mare ignored mare and foal. Started eating and when they moved closer my mare just siddled to them. They went into a large stable togapether and ate together, my mare never once did anything nasty to the foal.

Why a mare died at stud leaving a 4 week foal, I collected it with my mare in the horsebox. When I turned them out together in a small paddock adjoining th brood mares, the mare paraded the foal as if it were her own. 

She always ended up with the foals all around her they adored her. I always said she told them wonderful bedtime stories.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> actually, there are. the racing industry has many similarly harsh, business-based practices. I think there are some really big QH breeders who approach it much like a factory. Though I was a bit shocked to read that, I don't doubt it. most of us don't approach horses as a business, so we might not really understand that viewpoint. Not saying I agree, but it must make some sort of dollars and cents sense. I doubt they do it out just being cruel.


Would it cost so much to look for a rescue or someone to adopt? I have no doubt they could have a rescue on notice, to be ready in such a situation. There are simply so many alternatives.
I have trouble with the visual of someone doing the deed. How do you take the life of a baby, when it just isn't necessary? How do you watch the life go out of a baby and sleep at night?


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

That foal is so cute, please keep us updated!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

KSKatt, you think putting down an orphaned foal is bad but there are some color breeders who will put down a foal for lack of color.

Years ago my sister got a free appaloosa foal because the breeder was going to put him down because he had no spots. A friend of hers intervened and told them she knew someone who would take it. The joke was on them since he started showing some spots when he shed his foal coat and the older he got the more spots he got.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok, baby is going well. I have named him Theo.  Had another leading lesson he was doing very well. He seems to be getting on well with Kye. I don't want to put them together in a small yard in case Kye gets upset with him so as soon as he can lead a little better I'll start turning them out together for short periods to see how they go. The only problem is Kye lives off the smell of an oily rag so providing food for the baby will be hard without him gutsing it all. I'll have to setup a feeding area or something. Anyway. I'll sort something out.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh, good Lord! He is just too adorable! Theo is a perfect name for him. 

In regards to the discussion about color breeders euthanizing non-color foals, some of the Arab barns in Scottsdale do the same thing to foals who don't meet their halter type. My friend picked up a yearling filly for free that was going to be PTS because she wasn't "typey" enough for the breeders. Funny, because she's one of those Arabs that you look at and say "Yup! No doubt at all that that horse is an Arab!" She's now a 7yo and, even after coming back from an injury that by all rights should have killed her, she is a great horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Set up a creep feeder which is an area the foal can freely get in and out of but a full size horse can't.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Yep that's what I was thinking. Not sure how I'm going to make it yet but I have some old school yard fencing lying around. As long as it's strong and safe it should work out.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I remember hearing about specific "foster mares". Mares bred in order to be ready in the case of mares with high dollar babies dying or having problems. I felt sick that their babies were "disposable".
I've heard that the culling goes in in dog breeding also. 
I understand that this goes on, in many areas, in many ways. Dog fighting goes on also. That does not make it right.
Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I plan on concentrating on this gorgeous baby!
How did you come up with Theo? I just bet there's a story there!


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

I find it extremely disrespectful that some of you still talk about how disposable some foals are, in this thread where the topic is about raising one specific orphan foal; no one wants to kill Theo, so it would be nice if the talk will be about him and not what happens elsewhere.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My SIL breeds bassets. the ones she "can't sell" end up going to family. My grandmother got this little guy because he was having neurological issues (not coordinated and having a limpy gait). He seems to have grown out of it now. The point is that there ARE some good breeders out there. We could use more of them.

(sorry i have to post puppy pics. you just CANT talk about animal babies without pics XD!)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> If you brought the life into this world, you should take responsibility for it, not dispose of it like garbage because it takes a little extra care than you anticipated. Not to mention the thought that a breeder is too cheap to buy milk re-placer. :shock:


Since the breeder is cheap enough to wean at 3 months (then put them on a fitness program at 4) and has enough sense to keep them after 1 month the extra few weeks of milk replacer to get to the one month point are obviously a HUGE financial burden..

And to keep them from being like dogs... shouldn't that take LESS payroll since people shouldn't be spending time spoiling them?

Just not sure what a few weeks difference makes. Not a smart financial decision at all (or in any way, let alone the cruelty). How can someone spend THAT much in a few weeks to negate all the time effort and money already put in and a 15k sale? Doesn't make sense.

Can't say I'm surprised though. Now I know what to stay away from.. Hint- you're going to be "one of those" breeders, don't air your dirty little secrets.

If it made sense I would understand (in a way) but still disagree but this doesn't make sense. Giving them away involves effort... A lot of Appaloosas don't get spots until later so that's just dumb.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Oh, good Lord! He is just too adorable! Theo is a perfect name for him.
> 
> In regards to the discussion about color breeders euthanizing non-color foals, some of the Arab barns in Scottsdale do the same thing to foals who don't meet their halter type. My friend picked up a yearling filly for free that was *going to be PTS because she wasn't "typey" enough for the breeders.* Funny, because she's one of those Arabs that you look at and say "Yup! No doubt at all that that horse is an Arab!" She's now a 7yo and, even after coming back from an injury that by all rights should have killed her, she is a great horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she'll make an excellent riding prospect! lol

My Polish/Crabbet is super typey. Would NOT make a good halter horse and not bred for it. But he is _extremely_ talented athletic and very typey, much better than many.

I showed off some pictures at the barn and one of the girls mothers (NOT a horse person.. just brings her and leaves) she says "now isn't that an an (looking for the name)..Arabian?"

Creep feeders are great. I saw one set up at a dairy farm nearby. Just a gate leaned against the barn with a tree making a very narrow opening. Very simple but effective.

KsKatt you're looking for "nurse mare", commonly seen in TB racing as the mares are often live covered on their foal heat and you don't drag a newborn foal along for that.

There ARE programs in the US that do matching, maybe not nation wide but try google, you may find something nearby.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

No real story behind the name. I was just looking for one that suited him and that one stuck.  He is eating really well now and drinking all his milk. Beautiful solid poos!  he decided to race around his yard yesterday and crashed into the fence head first. He is totally fine thankfully. (I'm already glad I got those fences) Now that he is eating well the real handling can start. He is a bit naughty when being caught so need to get ontop of that quick smart!


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Feisty little guy, good for him! He's got fire and a will to live. He's gonna be a good one!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I like your plan. If you don't treat him "like an orphan" he should be just fine


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

RE: nurse mares. Those are mares who are foaled out and their foals taken away so the mare can be rented out to save OTHER orphan foals. Makes a lot of sense, no? They used to kill the foals from those mares til some rescue group stepped in and started taking them.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is a cute thing. Hope it goes well and he can be next to your gelding for emotional support.
Good luck with a creep feeder and hopefully he will be happy with bucket and foal pellets.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

stevenson said:


> he is a cute thing. Hope it goes well and he can be next to your gelding for emotional support.
> Good luck with a creep feeder and hopefully he will be happy with bucket and foal pellets.


In the UK, as was said before, there is the National Foaling Bank, run by a wonderful woman, Joanna Verdon, a registered charity.

If you have a mare that looses its foal or have an orphan foal, she will try to match up in you area. She is also a wealth of knowledge on raising orphans and fostering. Doubt it there is anyone in the world who had more knowledge.

When I have had a couple of mare loose their foals her advice was to skin the foal and to leave the skin with the mare. It enables the mare to accept the foal is dead. 
To milk the colostrum from the mare and freeze it incase a foal in your area needs it. 
Why adopting a foal and you have the skin of the dead foal, to drape the skin over the foal so it smells right, making the adoption far easier.

I do know that many TB studs are taking foals away from their dams and getting them on a foster. I cannot see the point of this at all. The mare is not going to foal any faster with the next one and is unlikely to be ridden between each foaling so, what is the point? Her breeding time is not going to be extended.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Far easier and just as effective to just leave the dead foal with the mare for about an hour, so she understands. No need to get grisly and skin it. And for getting a nurse mare to accept an orphan, just rub some of her milk all over the new baby.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

OP, he is a cutie! I can't wait to see more pictures 



KsKatt said:


> I remember hearing about specific "foster mares". Mares bred in order to be ready in the case of mares with high dollar babies dying or having problems. I felt sick that their babies were "disposable.


That's why places like the Last Chance Corral up in Ohio were started. Every year they take in at least 100 foals, get them started on buckets, and adopt out the ones they can. Some they keep for a bit longer due to medical reasons (just this year I think one had a puncture wound, one *I think* broke it's leg, and one was so badly windswept they were trying to fix her up before adopting her out). And those foals don't last long at all on the waiting list, even with their extremely (though rightly so) requirements to take one on. My husband and I plan to take on one or two once we have our own property and have put up baby safe fencing.

As far as the comments about killing and disposing of the babies, I would seriously like to know what farm this is for no other reason than to make sure I never, ever, ever do business with them. It disgusts me that a comment like that was even made. Yes, I understand it happens in certain worlds (color wise) but I'm not into color. It doesn't typically happen in the areas I'm familiar with. Just disgusting.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> In the UK, as was said before, there is the National Foaling Bank, run by a wonderful woman, Joanna Verdon, a registered charity.
> 
> If you have a mare that looses its foal or have an orphan foal, she will try to match up in you area. She is also a wealth of knowledge on raising orphans and fostering. Doubt it there is anyone in the world who had more knowledge.
> 
> ...


Racing TBs are live cover only. Mares are bred on their foal heat and transporting a very valuable few day old foal to that is deemed too dangerous. Hence they find a nurse mare (ideally a mare that lost her foal but as we know it's often "lost") put the baby with her then take mama off to be bred. Not an expert on TB breeding but have a basic understanding of that and nurse mares. The mare WILL have a "faster" breeding time if bred on her foal heat. In terms of the extreme value of the mares and foals they decide it's best to do it that way.

"As far as the comments about killing and disposing of the babies, I would seriously like to know what farm this is for no other reason than to make sure I never, ever, ever do business with them. It disgusts me that a comment like that was even made. Yes, I understand it happens in certain worlds (color wise) but I'm not into color. It doesn't typically happen in the areas I'm familiar with. Just disgusting."
Yup I said the same.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

As I said "USED TO". There hasn't been much of that in recent years, with the rescues picking up.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

As much as I would love this thread to concentrate on a lucky little boy... 
BugZapper89 makes it sound as though it is not quite as "used to" as we would like to think.
So, when the mare gets older and doesn't "produce" to your standards I suppose you just kill her to.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

KsKatt said:


> As much as I would love this thread to concentrate on a lucky little boy...
> BugZapper89 makes it sound as though it is not quite as "used to" as we would like to think.
> So, when the mare gets older and doesn't "produce" to your standards I suppose you just kill her to.


Quite likely from the sound of other posts.. Always talking about "clean meat" etc. I don't think there are any cared for horses that have "clean meat" they always have bute and wormer, vaccines and antibiotics if not loads of other stuff as well, you want to eat that? ..Have fun. I find good retirement homes for my breeding stock (sheep). If I had the room I would just keep them myself.

Also, as sad as nurse mare (and PMU) foals are at least there's a clear purpose and goal. Can't say the same for that though..

Looks like BugZapper ducked out though, so back to Theo!


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## pixelsandponies (Apr 6, 2013)

Theo is very lucky to have you! He is so darn cute. I'm glad to hear he's eating well, and I look forward to seeing his progress. 

Maybe a separate thread should be created to discuss the subject of orphans being euthanized/foster mares/etc. Theo should be the center of attention here.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

How is precious Theo today? He is in my thoughts and prayers, as is the angel that has taken him in!
I hope you give him lots of hugs and kisses from his many aunts and uncles!:wink:


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

It's poring rain here so he is locked in the stable at the moment. The yards are really slippery and he has already demonstrated his ability to crash head first into the fence. He is in a pretty foul mood for it lol. He is going really well actually, eating heaps of hay and started picking at some breeder/mare and foal pellets. He still doesn't really like me very much but hey. At least he doesn't think he is a dog.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok here's some pics.  sorry they aren't great. He decided to keep walking closer so it was hard to get any decent ones. We had a quick lesson today. Touching all over and some more leading lessons. He is starting to get the hang of it! He is going very well.  fingers crossed it dried out soon so he can go out with Kye.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

His eyes and muzzle are shedding out dark. I'm thinking he will be a dark brown or black?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

He sure is a doll. maybe you put a ball in the stall with him to keep him occupied, something to play with. He does look like he will be a dark color. hard to guess until his baby hair is shed out. His little half moon star is cute , has a little 'explosion' on the end .


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> I don't think there are any cared for horses that have "clean meat" they always have bute and wormer, vaccines and antibiotics if not loads of other stuff as well, you want to eat that?


Not at all any different than with cattle. Have you had a cheeseburger in the past 10 years? Only difference is there have been studies done to know how long that stuff stays in the system. No one has ever done that study (without extreme prejudice) on horses.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

His face marking looks like a dolphin jumping out of the water! He is just darling, and is going to make a lovely horse for someone!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

OoLaurenoO said:


> His eyes and muzzle are shedding out dark. I'm thinking he will be a dark brown or black?


Looks like a black to me, it will be obvious as to the color when he sheds out the foal coat. I look forward to seeing how he progresses  he is so lucky to have you even if he might not show his appreciation right now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

greentree said:


> *His face marking looks like a dolphin jumping out of the water!* He is just darling, and is going to make a lovely horse for someone!



Yes, now that you mention it, it really does.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It does look like a dolphin. So cute.

I think it's good and normal he's a little wary of you atm. Seems friendly enough, but still cautious. Good!

I LOVE the orange in his ears. So cute. I had a lamb born like that this year


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

OoLaurenoO said:


> His eyes and muzzle are shedding out dark. I'm thinking he will be a dark brown or black?


Usually the first foal shed turns out to be the darkest. I'm still leaning on brown.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Well little Theo is going like a champ! He is really settling down now but still respectfully cautious which is good. I can touch him all over now without him getting upset and his leading is improving every session. Kye still thinks it's a terrible idea for him to get lumped with baby sitting duty but he is taking it like a man.  he doesn't have a lot of patience for Theo's antics but hasn't kicked out or anything nasty. Just pins his ears back and tells him what's what. The weathers still pretty horrible at the moment but it's supposed to clear off and warm up for the weekend. Hopefully I will be able to give them a trial out together then to see how it all goes.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I for one demand MORE Pics! A vid would also keep the pic hungry mob at bay XD!!!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I'll try and get some more pics tomorrow. I won't get home until after dark sadly then I have to set about catching the pregnant mares and feeding everybody. Soon I promise.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

So no babies yet? Haven't seen a post on the other thread in a couple of days.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Nope not yet. I'll try and get some udder pics to update that thread this morning too.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I'll try and get some good photos for you guys on the weekend. Been a super busy week. On the up side Theo seems to have mastered the art of not running into fences when he is charging around for his morning run. Progress!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm no foal expert but I'm hoping that find that foster mare. Nobody is gonna constantly care for and train a foal like the mare, original or foster.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

A foster would be ideal, haven't had any luck so far sadly. I've got an older gelding who is being buddied up with him. Hopefully that will help.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds like you'll figure something out. =D The gelding sounds like a good idea. Boy, you figure there's GOTTA be some mare who lost her foal somewhere and would love the chance to raise your little guy! Praying for you and him. =D


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Can you just advertise on websites maybe? Craigslist? Even just an old babysitter type even if she's a maiden.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

You would think so... I live smack bang in a massive thoroughbred breeding area. Lots of studs around. They seem to be snapping up lots of foster mothers..  I'm planning on putting the gelding out with him on Saturday hopefully. So far they have just been over the fence buddies. Anyway, I'll keep trying to get him a mother. In the mean time he is eating like a champ and Kye seems to be pretty tolerant towards him. Once the other mares foal down he should have other babies to play with. (Once they get a bit bigger) so should be able to run with a bit of a mob soonish... We will see how we go.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Well Theo's getting himself into trouble again... Small knick on his off side fetlock, just on the inside. Doesn't look bad but very mildly lame. He was an absolute gem though, I put some antibiotic cream on it. He wasn't to thrilled and kept lifting his leg up but didn't kick out or play up. Anyway I'll keep a close eye on it to see if I think he needs it checked then off to the vet we will go. I'm hoping by tomorrow it will be looking good though.  He is such a good little boy. Fingers crossed he doesn't get himself into any more mischief!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Got another update! No foster mother sadly but seems like Kye is going to take him under his wing. Theo harasses him a lot the poor old boy but he is taking it well. I'll keep an eye on the situation but they had their first time out together this afternoon.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

If Kye doesn't end it first, I bet Theo figures out there's no milk to be had under there.:lol:
A foster would be wonderful, but if your life is anything like mine you always have to do things the hard way!:wink: You are doing a terrific job!
The pics are great, thank you!:thumbsup:


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## pixelsandponies (Apr 6, 2013)

Theo is looking great!!


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

That is one healthy, happy looking baby. And kudos for Kye for putting up with the nursing habits! LOL.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Is it just me, or does he look like he's going to be a big guy? Those are some LEGS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

JCnGrace said:


> KSKatt, you think putting down an orphaned foal is bad but there are some color breeders who will put down a foal for lack of color.
> 
> Years ago my sister got a free appaloosa foal because the breeder was going to put him down because he had no spots. A friend of hers intervened and told them she knew someone who would take it. The joke was on them since he started showing some spots when he shed his foal coat and the older he got the more spots he got.


I was just thinking the same thing. Many get spots later. If he was a breeder you would think he wouldn't be so stupid. In the paint world they will dry ice them to kill the pigment to get white.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

JCnGrace said:


> Set up a creep feeder which is an area the foal can freely get in and out of but a full size horse can't.


and if the big one gets aggressive he can get away.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Yep the creep feeder is on my list for today's jobs... It's a big list.. Anyway all is still going well. Theo's leading really well now and still harassing Kye although not as much today. I think maybe he is starting to work out no matter how annoying he is he still doesn't get any milk lol. Hard to believe Sundays already half way over. So much to do and so little time! I'll try and get some more photos of him soon. I know there's a trick to estimating height but can't remember what it is? Anybody know and want to refresh my memory?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Ahhh, it's not even Sunday here! That just made my day feel so much shorter! haha.

It's called the string test. You measure the cannon bone and *I believe* the inches=hands (14 inches= 14 hh). I think. Sure on the first 2 parts haha and there is some conversion.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Measure from the coronet band to the hollow spot in the middle of his knee. Each inch is a hand, so if it measures 15 1/2 inches that translates to 15.2.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ill try and measure him tomorrow and see what it says.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

JCnGrace said:


> Measure from the coronet band to the hollow spot in the middle of his knee. Each inch is a hand, so if it measures 15 1/2 inches that translates to 15.2.


Thought- in theory this works on adult horses? Or just on horses in a specific age range (I've heard of very broad ranges which is why I ask)


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Hopefully they will be one big happy family in a few weeks


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Thought- in theory this works on adult horses? Or just on horses in a specific age range (I've heard of very broad ranges which is why I ask)


 anything over 6 months. I have tried it on adult horses and its been accurate.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

seeing the baby try to nurse kye it makes me think of a scene in City Slickers 2 I think.. where the one character is drinking milk and billy crystal asks him where did you get the milk, he points and said from your cow.. he said the cow didn't want to give any milk but after I tugged and tugged it finally did or something like that and while hes drinking Billy crystal says we have a BULL not a cow.. and the look on his face is priceless


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

gingerscout said:


> seeing the baby try to nurse kye it makes me think of a scene in City Slickers 2 I think.. where the one character is drinking milk and billy crystal asks him where did you get the milk, he points and said from your cow.. he said the cow didn't want to give any milk but after I tugged and tugged it finally did or something like that and while hes drinking Billy crystal says we have a BULL not a cow.. and the look on his face is priceless


EW. So unrealistic. Most people know what milk's supposed to taste like. LOL


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> anything over 6 months. I have tried it on adult horses and its been accurate.


Good to know. Double check my horses heights that way since I don't have an actual stick.

The foal is 4 weeks though right?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

The old school of thought is that their cannon bone doesn't grow after birth so you could measure at any age. Maybe that has changed and I haven't heard about it.

Yogi, that measurement is an estimate and can be off an inch in height either way. For example if you measure and get 15 1/2 inches the horse should be 15.2 hands but it can be 15.1 - 15.3. If you want to know for sure you still need to measure from the withers on an adult horse.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

Subbing for pictures of the cutie.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> The old school of thought is that their cannon bone doesn't grow after birth so you could measure at any age. Maybe that has changed and I haven't heard about it.
> 
> Yogi, that measurement is an estimate and can be off an inch in height either way. For example if you measure and get 15 1/2 inches the horse should be 15.2 hands but it can be 15.1 - 15.3. If you want to know for sure you still need to measure from the withers on an adult horse.


Probably depends on the breed. My sister's Arabian colt measured string tested at 12" at birth which frightened my sister that she was going to have a 12hh pony gelding, she continued to measure him as he grew older and the string test seems to have stopped changing on him at about 14.5", which is better for my sister to have a 14.2hh riding mount instead of a 12hh pony. He is now 2 yrs old and is 14hh so he has more time to grow a little more until he reaches his the predicted height


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok well I string tested the little angel. It worked out at 16hh! I'm kind of hoping for a bit less but I guess I'll just have to wait and see! I'm planning on putting him out in the big paddock with Kye tomorrow. I'll be home to supervise and I think he is getting pretty bored in the smaller yard. Cranky boy! He hasn't put a foot out of place handling wise but I've seen him sulking around a bit. I'll be sure to grab some pictures of his happy little face once he's out!


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## Redhead (Feb 11, 2014)

This might be a really silly question because I have no experience with foals. Can Theo not be put out with the mares? Is there any possibility that their hormones would make them want to "adopt" him?


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Sadly no. These girls are experienced (had lots of babies before) they are very aware he isn't their baby.  Lou Lou is totally fine if Kye or Xena comes near her yard with her baby but she goes balistico if I take Theo anywhere near her. I'm not sure why really... But she won't even tolerate him in the yard next to her. Strikes the fence and is generally very nasty. Poor Theo.  I'm hoping once her baby is a bit older she will become more tolerant of him but I highly doubt she will ever be nuturing towards him in anyway.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

If I'm figuring right, it hasn't been quite 2 weeks since losing his mommy. I don't know how long it will take, but I imagine he still misses her. She was with him 24/7, he can't understand where she went. He will get past it, but it has to take some time.
He will come around. Lots of soft grooming?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> The old school of thought is that their cannon bone doesn't grow after birth so you could measure at any age


 the cannon bone may not, but the pastern bones don't fuse till at least 6 months.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Good to know Blue Spark, thanks.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Just to check... red or blue line (this horse has the most messed up legs ever haha, excuse the bad example)


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I measured like the red line. Was that correct?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Red line


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

loulou and xena foaled??


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Lou Lou foaled last Saturday night, still waiting for Xena.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

did I miss the pic ?


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

There's some on here but here's another.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I found the other post  she is a doll, and thanks for reposting it. Right now with her baby hair she is what I have always called a buttermilk buckskin. She does look like she will darken when her foal hair sheds.
she may be turn out to be a grulla or a sliver , that would be so cool..


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Yea I don't have a lot of experience with colours but she is beautiful! I'm excited to see how she changes when she gets bigger.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Subbing. You really are a saint.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

One creep feeder coming right up! Just used a bit of bailing twine threaded through some plastic pipe. The gate can't open but it can't close either and it's soft enough that if something smashes into it it should break away so hopefully it's safe... Wishing I had million dollar foal fences everywhere right about now!!! Kyes not real impressed about the situation. He loves his food! Anyway Theo seems to be pretty level headed and I know Kye is so hopefully it will be ok. On another note Theo had his first lesson this morning on picking up his feet. He just did it. Easiest thing I've ever done! Picked them up, let me hold them, stood like a rock. He is such a little champ! Takes everything in his stride.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

You're going to have a few stunning young horses running around in a few years the way he and Lyra are looking!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Thank you! I sure hope so.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

you are an angle


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

How about an update? Please!:thumbsup:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KsKatt said:


> Would it cost so much to look for a rescue or someone to adopt? I have no doubt they could have a rescue on notice, to be ready in such a situation. There are simply so many alternatives.
> I have trouble with the visual of someone doing the deed. How do you take the life of a baby, when it just isn't necessary? How do you watch the life go out of a baby and sleep at night?


I'm not defending their practice, but I understand it. Depending on the breed, you can pay from $500 - $100s of thousands on a stud fee. When you're breeding to those high dollar stallions, they require you to lose the foal before they will give you a rebreed to another mare. I know some stallions, that once the foal stands and nurses, it's deemed a live foal and there are no rebreeds. Even if the foal dies the next day, you're out of luck. 

I've never raise an orphan foal, but I have done a couple of dummies and those that were rejected in the beginning. It takes a LOT of time, extra work and $$$$$$$, that milk replacer is not cheap and growing foals go through a lot of it. When you only breed 1-3 foals every couple of years, you can afford the time, money and labor to hand raise those foals because most of the time, YOU are the hot and cold running barn help. 

When you're running a large operation 50+ foals/year, you have staff and to feed these foals, you have to hire extra staff and buy all the extra feed and medicines and probably deal with a couple of Failure Passive Transfer foals and have them in the vet for a couple of weeks at a time. That adds up quick and especially if you have a foal who doesn't get colostrum at birth, you're looking at an immediate large vet bill, and probably some ongoing issues as well. If the foal gets septic and develops joint ill, you're going to be in the $10-20 thousands of dollars at the vet and the poor thing isn't even a month old yet and still MAY NOT make it, no matter how much you spend. So, given those circumstances, in many cases it could be more humane to euthanize right away. It saves money and saves the foal from being really miserably sick right out of the box. Now, putting down a month old foal .......I find that questionable. I'll leave it at that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Well said, but I have to ask- would they really honor a live foal guarantee (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to) if the foal was alive and healthy but euthanized anyway?

(And completely agree that an already "well established" foal that can be, if necessary, be eating normal food in very short time has even less "excuse")


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> ^Well said, but I have to ask- would they really honor a live foal guarantee (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to) if the foal was alive and healthy but euthanized anyway?
> 
> (And completely agree that an already "well established" foal that can be, if necessary, be eating normal food in very short time has even less "excuse")


In the case of a foal who was orphaned shortly after birth, and then euthanized because of loss of the mother, as long as there was a vet statement and the other terms of the LFG were met, yes, because without the mother the foal would not be viable. If the mare died in the birthing process the foal wouldn't ever get to "stand and nurse" or get colostrum, and would probably be dead in less than 24 hrs. without the vet. Even if it got colostrum, it can be pretty iffy unless you have someone with the foal 24/7 for a while. Once it was to the point of eating solids and could live without the dam, that's why I said questionable. As a stallion owner, I'd have to see something from the vet that convinced me it was the best for the foal. 

Remember, a lot of LFGs are only "stands and nurses", or lives 24, 48, 72 hrs., whatever the stallion owner has in the contract. Some stallion owners are fairly sympathetic and feel the good will is worth the re-breed, so will go ahead even if the situation is not necessarily textbook. I know I'll take each case on its own merits.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Just so y'all can have an idea of what's in a fairly routine Live Foal Guarantee, here's the one from my contract. 

LIVE FOAL GUARANTEE:

Should the Mare fail to conceive, abort, die or not produce a “Live Foal” (Live Foal shall be defined as a foal that stands and nurses without assistance for a period of at least 24 hours from the time of birth) then the Stallion Owner guarantees the mare Owner shall have the right to rebreed or substitute a mare (upon the approval of the Stallion Manager) within the current or the following breeding season only. 

Mare Owner shall notify Stallion Manager within sixty days of the last day of Breeding Season if the Mare did not conceive, in order to be eligible for a rebreed. Mare Owner shall also notify Stallion Manager within thirty days of the Mare’s abortion, should the Mare abort. 

In the event that the Mare does not produce a “Live Foal”, then the Mare Owner shall provide the Stallion Manager with a veterinarian’s certificate stating the time and date of birth, time and date of death or abortion, and cause of death within seven calendar days of such death or abortion. 

In the event that mare dies, Mare Owner shall provide Stallion Manager with a veterinarian’s certificate of death. 

Live Foal Guarantee shall be specifically conditioned upon Mare Owner’s vaccination of Mare for Rhinopneumonitis in the third, fifth, seventh, and ninth months of the Mare’s pregnancy. Mare Owner shall provide the Stallion Manager with a certificate stating that such vaccination has taken place at the time the Mare Owner requests a rebreed pursuant to this section. 

Live Foal Guarantee shall lapse and the Stallion Owner/Manager shall have no further obligation under this section if:

1.	Mare Owner fails to rebreed Mare during acceptable return breeding periods as defined in this section. 
2.	Mare Owner fails to provide Rhinopneumonitis vaccination certificate(s).
3.	Mare is bred by any other stallion without written consent by the Stallion Manager.
4.	Mare is substituted with another mare without written consent by Stallion Manager.
5.	Mare fails to conceive, aborts or dies and Mare Owner fails to notify Stallion Manager as defined in this section. 
6.	Foal dies due to lack of supervision or proper facilities during birthing process. 
7.	Foal dies due to any negligent act of the Mare Owner.


I made mine pretty specific because there are a lot of people here whose breeding and foaling practices I don't agree with. Once they see the stipulations in my contract, they usually will decide to use another stallion. I'm fine with that.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I can understand a foal orphaned at birth, who faces so many battles or a foal that is ill or injured (if severely). But, the position stated was any foal up to 30 days of age. What about a perfectly healthy 29 day old, or a perfectly healthy 2 week old. A foal that has known life, run and played, a foal that is capable of looking at you with eyes full of trust?

I would love to know how this baby is doing!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KsKatt said:


> I can understand a foal orphaned at birth, who faces so many battles or a foal that is ill or injured (if severely). But, the position stated was any foal up to 30 days of age. What about a perfectly healthy 29 day old, or a perfectly healthy 2 week old. A foal that has known life, run and played, a foal that is capable of looking at you with eyes full of trust?
> 
> I would love to know how this baby is doing!


I can't answer for that poster, re: the older foals. As I said, I find that questionable and would have to see some documentation from a vet that convinced me it was in the foal's best interest to euth him at that time. Between 2 weeks & 4 weeks is still an area where the foal might not make it, without extensive care. By 30 days, most are eating some solids and could be put on Milk replacer pellets if nothing else and probably would do ok. That's why I say, I take every case on its own merits and Thank God, have not had to deal with much more than the mare didn't take on the first shipment.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Hey guys, Theo is going great guns! He's been to the specialist equine hospital to get his feet done, floated up there with Kye like a gem. Everyone was most impressed with his manners and when I mentioned he was an orphan they asked if Kye was a nanny mare. They had a bit of a laugh when they realized he was trying to suckle off a gelding. He has had his feet done again since then and they are going well. (details are in another thread in hoof care) I'll have to get some updated pics, he is huge now! Almost chest height so he is going to be a big boy! He was a bit ribby so I spoke to an equine nutritionalist to see if there was something better I should be feeding him and now he is filling out a bit more. Behavior wise he has made good friends with another colt foal I have, they are pretty chummy and the poor filly gets left out of the fun and games sometimes! He thinks he is the coolest thing since sliced bread at the moment but generally he is very well behaved! I'll try and snap some shots tomorrow for you guys.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Oh, thank you so much for the update!!:happydance:
Yes, pics are an absolute must!:wink:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Just so y'all can have an idea of what's in a fairly routine Live Foal Guarantee, here's the one from my contract.
> 
> LIVE FOAL GUARANTEE:
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing.. so viable means "viable without drastic time and money spent by caretakers" basically.

I see you do include "death or mare". I personally think that's very generous as that has nothing to do with you/the owner.

I will add that Lauren has another thread entitled "Help" (happy story, don't worry!) that has lots of updates and is worth reading on it's own. I thought this thread was a "left over" atm and didn't realize people were still searching!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Thanks for sharing.. so viable means "viable without drastic time and money spent by caretakers" basically.
> 
> I see you do include "death or mare". I personally think that's very generous as that has nothing to do with you/the owner.


I'll go find the other thread, sounds like a good read. 

During the years when I was breeding and using outside stallions regularly, I got just incensed over some of the treatment that mare owners received and deliberately tried to word my LFG to be Mare Owner Friendly. As long as the mare owner either pays for the collection and shipping costs or pays to have the mare at the farm and live covered, it really doesn't cost the stallion owner a thing to do a rebreed, under certain circumstances, But that's a topic for another thread, I think I'll start in the breeding section. That one might get a little lively.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Definitely a good read!! There's lots of Theo and Kye and some very worthwhile additional surprises! 

Thanks again for all the info!


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Yogiwick, thanks for the tip about the other thread!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

BugZapper89 said:


> You didnt give the most important part "age of the foal" By this time of year my have long since been weaned and on to their new homes or in a pretty structured show fitting program. If the foal is over 90 days, we would have already weaned it, so the mare doesnt really matter, but if it is under 60 days it may need some supplement. If the mare doesnt make it to the first 30 days, we destroy the foal and will transfer the breeding to a different mare


The OP said it was a 4 week old. No?


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