# Chair seat?



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

The ideal rider position is to have the shoulder, hip and heel aligned, so that if the horse were to suddenly disapear from under you, you would land on the ground perfectly balanced. 

A chair seat occurs when the riders legs (heels) are pushed forward in front of their hip and seat bones, which usually is tied in with the rider also leaning backwards to compensate for the lack of balance in this position. 
It's not a great habit to have, as you lose your driving seat, you cannot apply any kind of effective seat aid including half halts, and you are forcing more weight down onto the horse's back than your need to.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

A chair seat is when you're sitting in the horse in such a way that you look like you're sitting in a chair. Thighs forward, knees bent at around 90 degrees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll disagree with Kayty here, although it is something I just thought about this week. Look at the photo below:










Historical note - the rider there was later killed in a gunfight in a saloon. Don't know if he took offense to someone calling his riding a chair seat or not. :lol:

But while his heels are forward of his hips, that is NOT how someone looks sitting in a chair. Now compare my youngest daughter and I:










She has a chair seat. Her thighs are almost parallel to the ground, like sitting in a chair. In her case, it is caused by her insisting on riding a saddle that is too big for her. My heels are a bit in front of my hip, but my thighs are about as vertical as the saddle will permit (and parallel to the poleys).

There are a couple of important differences. When your thighs are parallel to the ground, you aren't using them to glue you to your horse. They are mostly sitting on top of the horse, like a piece of luggage. They also mean your center of gravity is higher, and the higher your CG, the easier it is for a fast turn to dump you. If your horse needs to spin, your legs are getting in the way, and your weight is like being in a chair spinning around with your legs out instead of in - you spin faster and better if your weight is carried in a vertical line.

My heels may be forward, but most of my weight is being supported by my thighs. The friction of my thighs helps when Mia goes from trot to the "OMG Crouch" - like today, when she saw an ENVELOPE sitting by the road! OMG! Keeping more of my weight lower on the horse helps when she jumps sideways. But heels forward also helps me get my thighs down. My hips won't spread far enough to allow me to get my thighs down if my heels are under my hips. Instead, that forces my crotch out of the saddle. And that hasn't changed any in 4.5 years of riding. Heels a little forward also help me get my heel down, which is good, and to do it with a relaxed leg, which is good.

If a chair seat is defined as 'heels in front of hip', then I will always ride with a chair seat. But I think a better definition is that a chair seat is when your thighs are parallel to the ground, like they are in a chair. THAT is harmful to riding no matter what style of riding (except racing horses, where you accept it in exchange for getting every bit of speed from the horse).

My daughter can get away with it because she ONLY rides a forgiving and very good-hearted gelding. If she tried it on my mare, she'd be dumped. In fact, she DID try riding Mia once for a lesson, and Mia threw her a minute into the lesson...:twisted:

My daughter still doesn't listen to me about riding, though. :?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Western maybe a little different - I've seen a lot of photo's of western riders in slight chair seats. 
But for Dressage, it's a no no. With the heels in front of your hip, you start to lose the ability of the pelvis to absorb motion - try sitting trot on a huge warmblood with expressive hock and knee action. Everyone wants to lean back - but as soon as you lose the alignment of the shoulder - hip - heel, your pelvis starts to jam and you are bouncing on the saddle.


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Yes I agree with Kayty. I'm not sure about the western thing, but for sure in dressage a chair seat will not be tolerated. And like she said, its not only about looks but also about how it affects your seat in the saddle. If you aren't sitting correctly aka in a chair seat, you cannot use yourself very effectively in the saddle. Even just having your lower legs slightly out in front of you will make it difficult to sit the trot or do any number of things. It totally changes the dynamic of how you are sitting; the horse can feel that you are off balance.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Just to add - I would rather see a slight chair seat, than someone pitching forward onto their knees.


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

That is true...a fork seat can be much harder to correct.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

katdressagegirl said:


> ...Even just having your lower legs slightly out in front of you will make it difficult to sit the trot or do any number of things. It totally changes the dynamic of how you are sitting; the horse can feel that you are off balance.


Completely untrue. How you best can ride a collected trot is your business. But it simply is a false statement to say that having heels in front of the hip means you cannot sit the trot or that "the horse can feel that you are off balance". Sorry, but I ride this way daily. And the cowboys who rode like that would have been risking their lives if they rode in an unbalanced way. 

Cavalry were taught to ride with their feet in front of their hips, and the cavalry of the 1800s rode distances and under circumstances that almost no modern rider ever attempts. If you ride 200 miles in 4 days, and finish with a charge where you have to go over terrain you've never seen before with a saber in one hand and folks doing their best to kill you - well, you wouldn't do that in a way that put you off balance.

It is easy to sit the trot this way. I did it a bunch of times today, even with a stiff back. It does NOT affect your ability to move with a normal horse's motion. And unless your hips will spread enough, it is NEEDED to get your butt into the saddle. Maybe not for most women, but I'd bet I'm not the only male rider who can't do splits...:shock:


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

@bsms:

Hey I'm just saying what I know to be true. A while ago, I was starting to develop a bit of a chair seat, where my lower legs and heels were out in front me a bit too much. A dozen lunge lessons later, and I was back into alignment. My heels are now underneath me and in my opinion, since then I am ten times more effective in my aids. I don't ride western, and I'm sure that to an extent there might be something to do with the saddle. But my dressage saddle encourages a long leg that is directly underneath me. I feel more centered and balanced there. And you can't tell me that isn't the truth because I can feel it and it makes a real difference.

Since I don't ride western, I don't really have much of an opinion on that. But I do ride dressage and yes I stand by what I said. Besides, there is absolutely no way I could ride a decent medium trot, sitting in the saddle, without me sitting in the correct position. 

I'm not saying that you cannot do it, I'm sure it could be easier especially in a Western saddle...in fact its generally considered easier to ride in a chair seat. But nevertheless it is considered incorrect. 

And yeah I can't do splits either, but I don't have an issue getting my butt down into the saddle


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)




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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

And yes my horse can feel I am off balance. If I'm in a chair seat, then it's called being behind the movement. I am not in sync with my horse in this position.

"Cavalry were taught to ride with their feet in front of their hips, and the cavalry of the 1800s rode distances and under circumstances that almost no modern rider ever attempts. If you ride 200 miles in 4 days, and finish with a charge where you have to go over terrain you've never seen before with a saber in one hand and folks doing their best to kill you - well, you wouldn't do that in a way that put you off balance." 

Hey I don't know about all that, but that's not what I am doing. Like I said, a chair seat is generally considered easier and more comfortable...but I don't consider it to be best position to be giving subtle aids to the horse using your weight and leg position.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, I know you CAN ride a sitting trot just fine with your heels in front of your hips, because I do it daily.

There is a reason it is easier. If you are completely vertical in the saddle, the only way to absorb the up down motion is for your thighs to spread apart and come together. Your spine - back - cannot absorb it because your spine is not a spring. It cannot compress to absorb the shock. When your heels are slightly forward, you can unlock your lower back and move your hips forward and up, then down with the horse. You pelvis can move, and it needs to move to absorb the motion.

How dressage does it is up to the judges of dressage. Maybe they like the vertical because it is more difficult, and thus a greater show of rider ability. But for western riding, doing it the easy way is...well, smart. The video below is about cantering, but it also is about using your hips to accept the horse's motion:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"If I'm in a chair seat, then it's called being behind the movement."

Define chair seat. If it is horizontal thighs, you are right. If it is any riding with the heels in front of the hips, you are wrong. If your back is straight and your legs a bit to the front, your body forms a wide V, with your pelvis at the vertex. As the horse moves, your body can go straight (accepting the upward and forward thrust) and then back, in synch with the horse. If you are completely vertical, then the only way to accept the motion is with your thighs.

And of course, you can always switch to a forward seat, where your body is folded back and forth above your stirrups. Good riding, for speed and for jumping. But not a chair seat, because your thighs are still wrapped on the horse. If George Morris called this good, I'm not going to argue:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

All western videos, BSMS. No relevance to us as Dressage riders. 

Best tell all of the Masters that they've been doing it wrong for generations. 
The back does not absorb the movement. The pelvis does. But when you're leaning back in a Dressage saddle, you are out of balance. Simple as that. 
I know when I started to develop a slight chair seat, while riding a big moving, very bouncy horse, my lower back became extremely jarred. Not to mention that it's near impossible to maintain a consistant, elastic contact with the bit. The elbows cannot effectively work as hinges, hanging at your hips, when you're leaning back to make up for your legs being pushed forward.
If you're riding a QH that moves close and flat to the ground and not needing to maintain contact, I can see how sitting in a slight chair seat is going to be comfortable. 

Cavalry charges and cowboys have nothing to do with it. It's a completely different style of riding. They weren't riding horses in collection, on huge extended paces that can easily fling you out of the saddle. We're riding in an arena, with collected and extended paces. Not charging across the bush full tilt.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

bsms said:


> "If I'm in a chair seat, then it's called being behind the movement."
> 
> Define chair seat. If it is horizontal thighs, you are right. If it is any riding with the heels in front of the hips, you are wrong. If your back is straight and your legs a bit to the front, your body forms a wide V, with your pelvis at the vertex. As the horse moves, your body can go straight (accepting the upward and forward thrust) and then back, in synch with the horse. If you are completely vertical, then the only way to accept the motion is with your thighs.
> 
> And of course, you can always switch to a forward seat, where your body is folded back and forth above your stirrups. Good riding, for speed and for jumping. But not a chair seat, because your thighs are still wrapped on the horse. If George Morris called this good, I'm not going to argue:


 
Jumping. Again, irrelavent to a Dressage seat. It is a different point of balance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This isn't the dressage section. It is the riding section, and involves a question raised watching western dressage. And based on her history, it was raised by a western rider who has expressed a desire to return to english riding and jumping.

http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/english-riding-lessons-142721/

You cannot address the term "chair seat" from just a dressage perspective. The term is used in most equine sports, and needs to be thought of from that perspective. As my daughter proves, you CAN have a chair seat in western riding, to your detriment.


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Well I will say this. Western was created by cowboys who spent a long long long time in the saddle. So sure. Do whatever is comfortable for you. I'm not saying you have to be classically correct.

However in dressage it matters. How do you think the upper level dressage riders can be so effective, giving little signals to their horse we can't detect easily? It's by being plugged into the saddle. And no it's not easy...it takes years and years of lunge lessons and practice to do an effortless sitting trot in the correct position. But I can tell you with my horse's trot...if I tried trotting him around in a chair position I'd lose a ton of control over his movements. I could no longer influence him correctly and he would hollow his back out, which would mean it would be harder and harder for me to sit correctly. 

Again it's not easy

This is written by Sue Morris


Most people try to think of sitting _down _into the horse. To be able to sit the trot properly you have to let the horse come _up_ under each individual seat bone and move the hip up and forward. The other feels as if it goes down / back. It is this mis-timing of this individual up / down phase leads to bumping and jarring. When the horse reaches the top of his up phase you have to consciously think going back down with the saddle. Waiting for gravity will be too late! As I say you have to _allow _this to happen, but at the same time you have to match the forward motion of the horse from within yourself.




You have to exert this forward motion with each stride in a two-time rhythm. The trouble starts when you forget to go _down_ with the saddle with alternate seatbones. Trying “to sit still” will end with the inevitable slap up the backside! You need flexible muscles around your hips and lumbar back - the most notorious for being the complete opposite. You need to be able to contract and relax these muscles at will. In addition you must support your torso with your midsection muscles so that you are sitting balanced over your seat bones with your hips (joints) under your shoulders. Only from this classical alignment, with your vertebrae in neutral spine can your body absorb the motion correctly through the hips and spine. 

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it isn't more correct. 

And again I'm just saying, if those FEI riders were doing their extended trots sitting back into a chair seat...they could not move with the horse and the horse would (a) not do it or (b) the rider would be bouncing around like a ragdoll. 

I'm not trying to pick on you or Western...but this is something I know for a fact. Ask any dressage rider you like.


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

bsms said:


> This isn't the dressage section. It is the riding section, and involves a question raised watching western dressage. And based on her history, it was raised by a western rider who has expressed a desire to return to english riding and jumping.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/english-riding-lessons-142721/
> 
> You cannot address the term "chair seat" from just a dressage perspective. The term is used in most equine sports, and needs to be thought of from that perspective. As my daughter proves, you CAN have a chair seat in western riding, to your detriment.


But this is what I know...so this is what I am going to answer with. I can't provide you with information regarding jumping and western and etc...I can only tell you what I know. What you choose to do with that is irrelevent...I am only answering the question to the best of my dressage knowledge

Like you are only answering with the best of your western knowledge...


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I thought this was interesting. Male vs. Female anatomy and it's effect on riding position. 

http://www.equinestudies.org/whos_built_best_2008/whos_built_best_2008_pdf1.pdf


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Interesting read, but she spends too much time discussing bones and not enough dealing with how men actually ride. The cavalry did NOT teach men to ride with heels under their hips, but to have their heels in front of their hips. The exception was for a short time sitting in a parade stance.

Bones are only one factor. We don't ride on bones. How the muscle is attached, the size and shape of the muscle, etc all play a role. If a man tilts his hips forward too far in a lot of saddles, he's soon be singing soprano! There are also two distinct approaches to riding - a forward seat and a traditional seat. Saddle shape and style affects it as well. When I ride our Circle Y, my thighs do go more forward than with my Aussie-style saddle because that is how the saddle is cut - there is a groove that angles forward in the basic structure of the saddle. Trying to get my heels under my hip is physically painful in that saddle and always will be because it forces me to fight the saddle.

And in my case, a back injury from my one fall 4 years ago still affects my riding. My lower right back still visibly swells up on a long ride, or after jogging. That pain makes it easier for me to have a stiffer lower back, but a stiff lower back means I cannot ride in the style the videos showed, with my lower back moving significantly with the horse's motion. I have to use a more forward seat because that puts me on a part of the horse's back with less motion. But as my back starts to heal, I'm starting to ride for short times with the more traditional western style.

All of that affects heels in front of or in line with the hips. But a "chair seat" is considered a fault in disciplines like jumping and western riding, where the heel is normally in front of the hip. So in those disciplines, a "chair seat" does NOT mean anything that results in the heels ahead of the hip. A chair seat is bad for cutting cattle, but heels forward is good. A chair seat is a fault in reining, too. So a chair seat, in many disciplines, means something else.

And when the thighs are parallel to the ground, a lot of bad things happen in ANY discipline. That is why I believe the best definition of a chair seat is to have your thighs parallel to the ground, resting on top of your horse. That is a fault in dressage, but is also a fault in almost every other type of riding.

BTW - thanks for the link. I bookmarked it for future reference.


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

I'd just like to present this video, ridden by Steffan Peters who is probably my favorite male rider. He just looks so fantastic in this video imo. He has a great position and just really looks connected with his horse. And he is correct alignment as well for dressage.


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