# Questions about driving western American vehicles.



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Is your layout a modern setup where the coach business is recreational? Or is it authentic old-west time period? If modern, you could get by with two draft horses and the route done at a walk. If authentic 1880's time period style is important there are a few issues. Generally, a buckboard had two horses, and a stagecoach a minimum of four, most usually six. Stagecoaches didn't go around lakes and such, but from one stage to the next-- hence the name. However, if this is a modern layout and is recreational only, then you have more room to play around. For an authentic stage experience, you'd likely want four horses--- they could possibly do two trips per day, but that's at a walk/trot only. If you want your horses cantering, one trip will be more than enough and possibly too much. Most stage horses were a hodgepodge and varied depending on the terrain for that 'stage' but a stock horse or morgan type with a touch of draft or tb were frequent. Breed was not important; type was. Look up the old photos and try to match the horses physically. If you want to use modern breeds and authenticity isn't as important, warmblood crosses would get you a larger coach horse with more endurance for pulling than a stock horse, but that type of horse would rarely, if ever, have been seen on the frontier. 

Yes, your drivers will use the brake coming downhill. That 15% grade is very steep. You will need big, sturdy wheel horses to help hold the load back on that grade, and then you run the risk of that type of horse lacking the speed and stamina to keep up with the others. However, if you're using draft horses and walking, you might be able to get away with it, and for authenticity, could swap the team out halfway through the ride. Whether you use larger horses and walk, or lighter horses and do some cantering, you will need multiple teams to swap horses out for rest periods. If you have a four-horse team, you'll need a minimum of 6-7 horses to sub ones that need a day off, are lame, sore, or sick. 

40-feet seems very small for turning a 4-horse or six-horse rig. I will leave that question for those who may have more experience driving multiple teams, but the issue for the turning radius is the length of the hitch from the pivot point (usually the middle of the front axle) to the nose of the lead pair. You can compact them a bit to swing a turn, but not much or you start them putting so much slack in the traces that they can get a leg over.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

SilverMaple said:


> Is your layout a modern setup where the coach business is recreational? Or is it authentic old-west time period? If modern, you could get by with two draft horses and the route done at a walk. If authentic 1880's time period style is important there are a few issues. Generally, a buckboard had two horses, and a stagecoach a minimum of four, most usually six. Stagecoaches didn't go around lakes and such, but from one stage to the next-- hence the name. However, if this is a modern layout and is recreational only, then you have more room to play around. For an authentic stage experience, you'd likely want four horses--- they could possibly do two trips per day, but that's at a walk/trot only. If you want your horses cantering, one trip will be more than enough and possibly too much. Most stage horses were a hodgepodge and varied depending on the terrain for that 'stage' but a stock horse or morgan type with a touch of draft or tb were frequent. Breed was not important; type was. Look up the old photos and try to match the horses physically. If you want to use modern breeds and authenticity isn't as important, warmblood crosses would get you a larger coach horse with more endurance for pulling than a stock horse, but that type of horse would rarely, if ever, have been seen on the frontier.
> 
> Yes, your drivers will use the brake coming downhill. That 15% grade is very steep. You will need big, sturdy wheel horses to help hold the load back on that grade, and then you run the risk of that type of horse lacking the speed and stamina to keep up with the others. However, if you're using draft horses and walking, you might be able to get away with it, and for authenticity, could swap the team out halfway through the ride. Whether you use larger horses and walk, or lighter horses and do some cantering, you will need multiple teams to swap horses out for rest periods. If you have a four-horse team, you'll need a minimum of 6-7 horses to sub ones that need a day off, are lame, sore, or sick.
> 
> 40-feet seems very small for turning a 4-horse or six-horse rig. I will leave that question for those who may have more experience driving multiple teams, but the issue for the turning radius is the length of the hitch from the pivot point (usually the middle of the front axle) to the nose of the lead pair. You can compact them a bit to swing a turn, but not much or you start them putting so much slack in the traces that they can get a leg over.


Thank you, Silver:

The authenticity of the horses are not that important. Most people in modern times, mostly not knowledgeable about horses, who go for fun rides see a horse and a horse to them just looks, sounds and smells like any old horse. What is important in this fun-ride business is PRACTICALITY. The horses must be strong and durable for the job. Figure a work shift for these horses might be a 10-hour day on weekends and perhaps seven day a week during the summer months. The horses will work the busiest during the seasons when most people have leisure time to take off from work to vacation. The speed of the horse-drawn vehicles will be so that the horses have the most working miles in one day before they are worn out. Probably a leisurely walk at maybe 5 mph. A steady trot gait might poop them out too soon. I would also want my horses a uniform size and color and breed for visual aesthetics. I believe stallions are used to do the heaviest muscle work so I would probably go for those with a draft build and muscle. 
I would like to have to change horses as little as possible. Having more horses in one's driving inventory increases overhead costs. 

The horses might go 25 to 35 miles a day. That's about 5 or 6 laps around my 5.30 mile stage course or about 20-25 times around my small lake.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Stallions are not what you want for your horses. You want geldings or mares. Geldings, most likely.

That workload day in and day out will ruin your horses in short order. Draft horses are built for strength, not speed--- your route is too many miles to be feasible with a draft horse. 

You will want 2-3 complete teams for that workload of 25 - 35 miles per day, if not more. If you use one team for a whole day, they will need several days off in between to recover, or you'll rapidly find your team worn out, lame, and thin. I'd do 2 teams each day-- one in the morning and one in the afternoon, with each team getting every third day off--- so at minimum, you'd need three complete teams plus a couple of spare horses to put in where needed. More horses cared for properly is far more cost-effective than overworking your horses and having to replace them frequently or deal constantly with injury. Ten hours a day, seven days a week is just not feasible unless you have multiple teams and replacement horses within those teams. 

Your workload is more than the old coach horses of the past, and those (especially in the UK) were bred for it. They usually worked 5 miles a day and were dead in 2-3 years of overwork. Horses are living, breathing animals, and you have to take into consideration your weather conditions as well. If it's hot or hot and humid, your horses' workloads may be cut in half. Horses need days off-- even the most overworked horse in the past usually got at least one day a week off, so at minimum, even if you cut your workload in half, you will need 2 teams.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

jonbailey said:


> I believe stallions are used to do the heaviest muscle work so I would probably go for those with a draft build and muscle.
> I would like to have to change horses as little as possible. Having more horses in one's driving inventory increases overhead costs.
> 
> The horses might go 25 to 35 miles a day. That's about 5 or 6 laps around my 5.30 mile stage course or about 20-25 times around my small lake.


You want geldings, not stallions for work animals. 

Your workload is also far more than you can use one team for. You will need 2-3 full teams, plus some replacement horses to use as needed for that workload. 25 -35 miles/day is also far more than a draft team can do in a day unless you want them used up and worn out in a month-- you will want lighter horses for this amount of mileage, even if you want to cut it in half. For this workload, I would have at least 3 teams-- one for the morning, one for the afternoon, and give each horse every third day off, hence the third team. Plus you will need to account for wear and tear, illness, injury and have a few spare horses to sub out periodically as your horses need a break. Even half your mileage per day split between two teams, day in and day out, is far too much. 

It is far more cost-effective to have an adequate number of animals to work from rather than overworking the ones you have and replacing them constantly. Coach horses in the past regularly went no more than 5 miles/day when used 6 days a week, and they were generally worn out and used up and sold for slaughter within 2-3 years. Those worked 3-4 days a week might last twice as long. Properly manage your horses and they will have a working life of at least 10 - 15 years. Horses are living, breathing animals, not machines. They need time off, they get sore, they have bad days just like people. In hot or humid weather, you may find your horses can only do half as much work, too. More horses will cost you less in the long-run than ruining them by overwork when you don't have enough.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"a fictitious Mr. Groves owns a business. He gives paying-customers rides in his fleet of two stagecoaches and two town carriages. His business runs from sunup to sundown. The carriage rides are a round a lake on a loop about 1 1/4 miles. ( basically a 20 to 25 minute ride at a leisurely walk including loading and unloading - free ride maybe - for a paid ride I would expect longer unless it was not expensive. Ideally each team would work no more than 5 hours a day and 4 days a week) The paved road is flat. The carriage has two horses and seats six including the driver. A complete carriage ride is a 1 1/4 mile lap. He also runs a longer stagecoach ride about 5 1/3 miles on a loop.(If the land were more level I would say that you could make 4 runs per team so figure about 5-6hr day and 4 days a week per team) During the trip the coach must climb two grades up to the mesa of 15% for a distance of about 700 feet. The coach must come down one grade that is about 5% for 1,000 feet and down another that is about 11% for about 900 feet. (15% is really too much of a grade to expect a loaded team to pull multiple times a day - that creates a big increase in the amount of work : 7 - 9% would be my max for a team that makes multiple trips) Otherwise most of the course is flat terrain. There are two five minute stops and two two minute stops for the complete stage ride trip. The stage coach, O'Conner Stage Lines has a two horse team. Mr. Groves also employs a buckboard with a spring seat drawn by a single horse that follows the coaches over the 5 1/3 mile trip to give the coaches mechanical support as in spare parts for any busted wheels or bands. This single-horse wagon must negotiate the same hills as the two stagecoaches. "

"Is two horses under-powered for pulling a coach up the grades mentioned above? Yes - especially if expected to do this more than once a day. You would need 4 light drafts. Your driver's skill level would have to increase accordingly.Will the buckboard need more than one horse considering the grades encountered on the route? Again I'd say yes and go with a pair."

"Is a turning radius of 40 feet too sharp for a stagecoach with 4 or 6 horse teams? This is about the tightest radius encountered on my route. A wider radius is more comfortable but a skilled driver could. It takes time to turn a team and the sharper the turn the more time as you may need to turn each team separately. Can a 6-horse coach turn in a circle as tight as a modern compact automobile can? No. This now has to do with the physics and geometry of driving and the endurance level of the animals pulling the vehicle. Mr. Groves' imaginary stagecoaches weigh 2,500 pounds and carry 4 passengers and two crewmen in the driver's bench including a shotgun. Mr. Groves won't make passengers dismount for climbing hills in these modern times. And he certainly won't make his customers push the coach up the hills as it was rumored to have happened in the Old West. He will use as many of the strongest breeds of horses as he needs to. If he needs a 6-horse team to run these stagecoach trips he will do so. What are the strongest breeds of horse typical used by the Well Fargo stage lines? You want a light draft or cross weighing about 1650lbs. You DO NOT want stallions. How many 5 1/3 mile short stagecoach trips can he make in one day using the same set of horses? Max of 4 trips and that is if you don't have that 15% grade. The stage circuit on my layout is a dirt trail and no trips are to be made in wet or muddy weather. Tractors regularly keep the trail graded and groomed unlike in the Old West. "


"The horses might go 25 to 35 miles a day. That's about 5 or 6 laps around my 5.30 mile stage course or about 20-25 times around my small lake. " You're asking to destroy your horses if this is the number of trips per team.

Of course if this is all fictitious to go with your model railroad then it really doesn't matter and you can run the same team every day as long as you do not get repeat customers or customers that come watch the set up for hours at a time. We have a model set up in a train museum that has all sorts of add ons that the kids love to visit but we aren't in there more than half an hour on any given day. Each time we go they notice things they missed. The layout covers a really large area.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> "a fictitious Mr. Groves owns a business. He gives paying-customers rides in his fleet of two stagecoaches and two town carriages. His business runs from sunup to sundown. The carriage rides are a round a lake on a loop about 1 1/4 miles. ( basically a 20 to 25 minute ride at a leisurely walk including loading and unloading - free ride maybe - for a paid ride I would expect longer unless it was not expensive. Ideally each team would work no more than 5 hours a day and 4 days a week) The paved road is flat. The carriage has two horses and seats six including the driver. A complete carriage ride is a 1 1/4 mile lap. He also runs a longer stagecoach ride about 5 1/3 miles on a loop.(If the land were more level I would say that you could make 4 runs per team so figure about 5-6hr day and 4 days a week per team) During the trip the coach must climb two grades up to the mesa of 15% for a distance of about 700 feet. The coach must come down one grade that is about 5% for 1,000 feet and down another that is about 11% for about 900 feet. (15% is really too much of a grade to expect a loaded team to pull multiple times a day - that creates a big increase in the amount of work : 7 - 9% would be my max for a team that makes multiple trips) Otherwise most of the course is flat terrain. There are two five minute stops and two two minute stops for the complete stage ride trip. The stage coach, O'Conner Stage Lines has a two horse team. Mr. Groves also employs a buckboard with a spring seat drawn by a single horse that follows the coaches over the 5 1/3 mile trip to give the coaches mechanical support as in spare parts for any busted wheels or bands. This single-horse wagon must negotiate the same hills as the two stagecoaches. "
> 
> "Is two horses under-powered for pulling a coach up the grades mentioned above? Yes - especially if expected to do this more than once a day. You would need 4 light drafts. Your driver's skill level would have to increase accordingly.Will the buckboard need more than one horse considering the grades encountered on the route? Again I'd say yes and go with a pair."
> 
> ...


Were the stage horses of the Old West overworked? What was the typical schedule and mileage for the same team over one work week in 1885?

My stagecoach route is 5.30 miles long per trip and it can be made if the horses average around 5 mph. The grades there are there to stay. They range from 5% to 15% over a SHORT arched bridge. Remember they are only three short climbs, about 900 feet at most. The rest of the course is perfectly level. It is much easier to change horses than modify the terrain. I'm sure stagecoaches in the old west had to deal with much nastier terrain and scorching heat in the deserts of the southwest. Much of my terrain is forested for good shade. 

Figure four trips per coach per day. There are two coaches so that's eight trips daily during the busiest season of dry, fair to good weather. 

One could have a team of 6 light-draft horses for the stagecoach. So, each team could probably handle two trips daily. So, I need 4 teams daily. That's 24 horses. Ok, I should double my stage horse inventory to 48 for substitutes for sick horses and to rotate teams out every three days. But aren't stallions more well-muscled than geldings or mares? 


The carriage horses run a trip of 1/1/4 mile per trip and it takes 15 minutes per trip averaging 5 mph. There are 2 carriages. Figure 20 trips per carriage per day for seven days a week. There are no hills. There are two horses per 6-person platform carriage. What would be a practical inventory for my carriage horses? 24?


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

jonbailey said:


> Were the stage horses of the Old West overworked? What was the typical schedule and mileage for the same team over one work week in 1885?
> 
> My stagecoach route is 5.30 miles long per trip and it can be made if the horses average around 5 mph. The grades there are there to stay. They range from 5% to 15% over a SHORT arched bridge. Remember they are only three short climbs, about 900 feet at most. The rest of the course is perfectly level. It is much easier to change horses than modify the terrain. I'm sure stagecoaches in the old west had to deal with much nastier terrain and scorching heat in the deserts of the southwest. Much of my terrain is forested for good shade.
> 
> ...


Another thing, for such a large inventory of horse stock, how many stables am I going to need? How many corrals? How many acres? How did 
old west liveries manage their stocks? Did each team get assigned its own stable and corral? With such a large number of horses to deal with we don't want to get the the tired ones mixed up with the fresh ones so there needs to be an efficient way of culling the animals. I imagine stagecoach companies needed a whole lot of real estate.

Carriage companies in New York City have hoof numbers assigned to identify the horses in their fleets. I don't like the way those horses are cooped up in small stalls when off duty.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Stallions take a whole other level of care. Some stallions can be run together but they are more likely to fight than geldings, especially if there are mares around. More likely you will need to keep them separate, grazing as well as in a stall. They may beat up on the geldings. If you do have mares then when they come in season the stallions probably are not too focused on work, especially if they want to challenge each other. They are harder on fences, need a firmer more experienced hand and have no business where non-horse people could be wandering around patting horses. With out modern 'health and safety' authorities, the liability alone would not be worth having stallions, especially if you actually have to pay for insurance.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Stallions take a whole other level of care. Some stallions can be run together but they are more likely to fight than geldings, especially if there are mares around. More likely you will need to keep them separate, grazing as well as in a stall. They may beat up on the geldings. If you do have mares then when they come in season the stallions probably are not too focused on work, especially if they want to challenge each other. They are harder on fences, need a firmer more experienced hand and have no business where non-horse people could be wandering around patting horses. With out modern 'health and safety' authorities, the liability alone would not be worth having stallions, especially if you actually have to pay for insurance.


Ok, zilch the stallions. Probably geldings. Probably still more muscle than mares for stagecoaches. I know castrated male oxen are used for heavy work and they are built like an ox, of course. Some draft or plough horses also seem to have the muscle of oxen. The mares might work for the lighter carriage and easy short, flat course around my lake.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

jonbailey said:


> Ok, zilch the stallions. Probably geldings. Probably still more muscle than mares for stagecoaches. I know castrated male oxen are used for heavy work and they are built like an ox, of course. Some draft or plough horses also seem to have the muscle of oxen. The mares might work for the lighter carriage and easy short, flat course around my lake.


Mare, gelding? Doesn't matter. Exercised horses that are fed well have muscle and stamina.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't know what happened to my post so I'll repeat it.

Mare or Gelding does not matter. Horses that are exercised and well fed have muscle and stamina


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

And I lost my entire post. So here goes round two. 

Most staging stations were 24 - 26 miles apart and a coach traveled no more than 80 miles a day. They exchanged teams at every stage stop. They had 15 - 18 hour days. That meant each team traveled no more than the distance between stages and maybe worked 5 hours. A 15% grade even over short distances is a large increase in the work load. 

Geldings aren't driven by hormonal urges but you still have individual personalities with their own likes and dislikes. Mares would work just fine. Even a marish mare with a good handler is not an issue. My draft mares would be insulted to be passed over for geldings. They love to work and are eager for their harness. Why? Because, they aren't overworked. 

Several of us have relied on driving our horses or a living or at least for a portion of our income. We've BTDT. My favorite rides were three day wagon rides set on a clover leaf pattern. We did rides all over Texas. The ones I enjoyed the most were the Hill Country, Lost Maples, Mineral Wells and the Llano Estacado. We'd do one 25 mile loop a day and take breaks for short hiking trips (cave exploration, rock climbing, etc.) or swimming and a lunch break. The loop would take us back to camp each evening and we'd start a new loop the next day. We were driving no more than 5 hours a day plus breaks - so an 8 to 10 hour day. Sometimes 12 in the cooler parts of the year where there was ample daylight. There were 2, 3, and 4 horse teams depending on the load and each of us usually had a younger horse or two tied to the back for exposure and perhaps a turn in the harness. There was one 6 horse team of Percherons that ran the entire team no matter the load. They were used for advertising for a Tx company and these rides were just for fun and socializing with other draft owners. So in comparison each team would do the equivalent of 5 trips but with longer breaks during the trip (about 8 miles apart). 25 miles a day. 5 hours of drive time. 

Shorter trips like your lake trips would be comparable to our historic home/open house, lighted home or hay rides - depends on the season. The teams were hired by local entities (city, chamber of commerce, church organization) and paid a lump sum. We'd use teams of 2 drafts and make no more than 2 trips per hour (20 minute ride) working 5 - maybe 6 hours doing no more than 10 trips. The absolute most was 12 over 8 hours with a long break in the middle of the day. Trips that were longer and covered more miles were paid by the individual riders. They were no longer than 5 miles and actual ride was an hour to hour and a half. These were leisurely trips for sight seeing. There were good breaks in between and you'd have 4 to 5 trips. If the loop was shorter you could have a couple more trips fit in an 8 hour day.

Sure you could do more trips and increase the pace and/or work more hours but you're putting undue stress on your horses and drivers. With reasonable working conditions you can expect a team to work 10 - 15 years. Back in the day they didn't last near that long.

My avatar was my main team and they are eagerly waiting for the bucket girl to arrive with their water and treats.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It isn't letting me edit. Hopefully this won't be a double post. 


ETA land was plentiful and there for the using. Horse wise for authenticity you'd look for light drafts or crosses but you could do this with 4 heavier drafts per team. For the coach you'd want 2 teams (12) and 6 in reserve per day. Plan on 4 day work weeks. 36 horses could cover that. For the shorter trip say 20 horses. You could with careful planning lower that number and use some pairs on either ride. You shouldn't need more than 60. They'll do better with turn out and depending where you are and stocking rate you could be looking at anywhere from 240 acres to 3 times that. Here you could in some areas get by with 120 acres. Now you could do rotational grazing and feed hay free choice in a dry lot which could lower the number of acres needed but I'd say minimum would be 120 for pasture and then room for the barn and living space. The barn would be standing stalls for feeding and harnessing. There would be 20 spaces and a smaller pen to hold those that you are switching off plus your reserve horses. I'd have hay out for these as well.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> It isn't letting me edit. Hopefully this won't be a double post.
> 
> 
> ETA land was plentiful and there for the using. Horse wise for authenticity you'd look for light drafts or crosses but you could do this with 4 heavier drafts per team. For the coach you'd want 2 teams (12) and 6 in reserve per day. Plan on 4 day work weeks. 36 horses could cover that. For the shorter trip say 20 horses. You could with careful planning lower that number and use some pairs on either ride. You shouldn't need more than 60. They'll do better with turn out and depending where you are and stocking rate you could be looking at anywhere from 240 acres to 3 times that. Here you could in some areas get by with 120 acres. Now you could do rotational grazing and feed hay free choice in a dry lot which could lower the number of acres needed but I'd say minimum would be 120 for pasture and then room for the barn and living space. The barn would be standing stalls for feeding and harnessing. There would be 20 spaces and a smaller pen to hold those that you are switching off plus your reserve horses. I'd have hay out for these as well.



Thanks, people for giving some knowledge about horses and wagons. Most people these days have very little knowledge of horses. The widespread use of the automobile has made society ignorant of these animals to say the least. Most Americans think Amish or cowboy movies when you say HORSE. It seems that a taxicab company, even with today's gasoline prices, will have much lower costs per passenger-mile than those outfits which run horses for amusement rides. It seems a horse doesn't have anywhere near the endurance of a car's motor and they require much more real estate to 'garage' than motor vehicles. 

The invention of the automobile must have displaced the horse for many good reasons.


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