# Horse Slaughter - Should Start Up Once More



## FutureVetGirl

I've seen more than my share of Animal and Equine (same thing... sorta) Cruelty in my years, even though I only have fifteen of them. I live in Serbia, a country where the words Animal Cruelty have no meaning. To anyone. If you have a dog that you don't want to hear barking anymore, you either remove or destroy the vocal cords. If you have a horse that you can't afford to feed. You keep it, but just don't feed it.

I have not grown cold to it. In fact, quite the opposite. I know what real animal cruelty is. And I have to say this: Slaughtering a horse for food, whether for a dog, or for a human, is NOT cruelty.

I'm not saying that conditions should stay how they are. But I'm also not saying that the animals need to be put in 16 x 16 stalls all on their own, with a ton of feed. I've known quite a few people who believe that if you're going to kill an animal, you need to make it's whole life as "happy" as possible. Sure, every horse needs to at least be cared for, but a horse can be perfectly content in a semi-large paddock with quite a few other horses, for probably no more than a few days.

You might say that the experience would be traumatic for them. That they can smell the death, the blood, the fear. If the animal is going to be killed, what would it matter? It's not cruelty.

Conditions aren't to be improved for the animal's sake, but for the safety of the slaughterers. I've also heard people say that those people need to die. Those people are usually poor legal immigrant hispanics who are so put down by their caucasian neighbors, that the only jobs they can find are the ones that everyone else looks down on. Many times those people lose fingers and even arms to various conditions.

The animal feels no pain when the bolt goes through the head. Rarely does it miss. And by rarely, I mean 1 out of every thousand horses that come through.

Which would you rather have? And answer honestly, just this question, not saying how I'm a cruel person who wants all the horses dead. I'm not asking for a debate. Just a quick and simple answer to this question. Which would you rather have? A ton of horses sitting in someone's backyard, rotting away while their still alive, or a quick and painless death for those horses who just can't go to some little girl in New York? You tell me.


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## amightytarzan5

I kinda agree with you, but some of the stuff I don't.



> You might say that the experience would be traumatic for them. That they can smell the death, the blood, the fear. If the animal is going to be killed, what would it matter? It's not cruelty.


Sorry, but I do not like this comment at all. If you are going to kill an animal, you should make it as comfortable as possible. The animal should not be traumtized. Sure it's going to die, but would you like it if you were going to be murdered right in front of your friend hanging upside down and dripping with blood? I know that's graphic, but seriously, put yourself in the horse's place. We are above animals in the food chain, but that does not mean that we shouldn't care about their feelings.

I do think that slaughter is cruel if the houses are going to shoot the horses in the heads with nail guns and skin them before they are dead. That is the definition of animal cruelty to me. Don't say this doesn't happen because you can see videos of it on the internet. I'll post the website at the end of this reply. More than one out of every thousand horses is not killed by the first bolt. If the horses were humanely euthinized, I would reconsider my opinion. If the U.S. gov't really wanted to restart slaughter and have the nation approve, they would buy the drugs used to euthinize.

This is the website that I was talking about. DO NOT view if you are squemish (or however you spell that.) It made me cry.
http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528


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## Kentucky

FutureVetGirl,
I agree with most of what you said but it condition should be made safe for both the animal and the workers.


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## FutureVetGirl

That is exactly all I was trying to say Kentucky. Conditions need to be made safe. But then... why are we only trying to fix the conditions with ONE animal? Why don't we try to fix conditions that cattle are in, or perhaps chickens, goats, or pigs?

I see what it is that you're saying, but if a horse ends up being "rescued", unless they themselves were physically harmed by it, they will have no memory of it. It's fact.

And please know what the definition of "dead" is. I don't call dead the time when the carcass becomes fully stiff. Dead is when there is absolutely no consciousness, and the brain is unable to work at all anymore. And by that odd description of death, every single horse who was slung up and bled out was dead. What you see with all of those jerkings and stuff are NOT the horses still being conscious and aware of any pain. As soon as the bolt hits the brain, the horse is immidiately unconscious, and unable to feel any pain, and from that time on, it's, well, to put it plainly, dead. But it does take another five to ten minutes for the life functions to fully end. But that doesn't mean that the horse would ever revive and live.

And yes, I've seen the website a ton of times. It's on that that I've based all of my claims as a matter of fact. Not some site or person telling me how good horse meat tastes (it actually does taste kind of good, I live in Europe, it's a staple in some countries). 

Also, did you know that sometimes the people taking those videos often wait until the ONE horse that things happen to, in order to video it? This isn't the norm. Sure seems like it, but it's not. Like I said, it's the one in one thousand case that is even slightly similar to this. And those things are quickly taken care of.


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## amightytarzan5

That horse that they were bolting over and over again in the head was not dead the first time. You can't tell me that those were reflexes. I know a live horse when I see one. It doesn't matter if they wait for one horse. It's still cruel.

I agree that they should fix the conditions with all animals. I, myself, am a vegetarian and don't agree with animals being killed inhumanely.


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## GallopAway

FutureVetGirl said:


> That is exactly all I was trying to say Kentucky. Conditions need to be made safe. But then... why are we only trying to fix the conditions with ONE animal? Why don't we try to fix conditions that cattle are in, or perhaps chickens, goats, or pigs?
> 
> I see what it is that you're saying, but if a horse ends up being "rescued", unless they themselves were physically harmed by it, they will have no memory of it. It's fact.


I agree with most of what you're saying too. I think if conditions are changed for horses, they should be changed for other animals, such as cattle.

I don't think a horse has to necissarily experience physical pain to have a memory of something though.


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## amightytarzan5

> I don't think a horse has to necissarily experience physical pain to have a memory of something though.


I agree. If you yell and scream at a horse constantly, do you think they will remember it? It's not doing them any physical pain, but it is doing a lot of mental pain. A horse will definately remember screaming. We have a horse at our barn that shrinks into a shell when you yell at him. I mean like, if he tries to bite and you yell "NO!" he will go into a shell where hardly anyone can reach him. It's a sad sight to see.


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## NorthernMama

I have no problem with slaughter of any animal provided it is humane. That includes the trip to the slaughter house and the days before slaughter and the kill itself. Around here, it seems like the trip to and the days before are the worst from what I hear and read. 

What's terrible where I live, is that there isn't even an abattoir here. So if a horse is destined for slaughter it's a minimum 4 hour trailer ride with a bunch of others that may have been in there for a lot longer and everyone is in a panic, some are in pain, some get injured on the way, etc. etc. Why not keep the animals sedated to help with the "before" time? Would that be a possible solution? I don't know.

As for those videos and all the media that gets bandied about - ya, this is NOT an everyday occurence. Any hunter can tell you that the odd shot goes bad. With the control in a chute or box, the odds go way down, but sure it would still happen. We can't focus on the narrow percentages there, but instead, IMO should focus on the generic treatment that happens to all animals that go to slaughter. There have been recent changes in North America about length of travel time, feed and water on the way (yes, some trips are THAT long for cattle and pigs especially), and traveling in the heat of the day. 

Another solution might be to allow the kill to happen at the farm, properly supervised for care, safety and sanitation (for all concerned, including the end product) and then have proper refrigerated transport to the abattoir. These days, here anyway, if an animal dies on site, it is no longer accepted by the meatman even if we know for sure that the cause of death was trauma. Used to be farmers could do their own and it was fast because the farmers wanted no trouble!


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## amightytarzan5

What I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter how seldom that the situation in the video happens, it shouldn't be happening at all! That horse was put through unecessary pain. I agree that all animals destined for slaughter should be treated with respect and kindness. No, I don't say that the killers should feed the pigs apples on a silver platter or drape the cows with the finest wool when they get cold. But they should treat them humanely. They are providing food for us(some of us anyways.) unwillingly. They should be fed appropriately, kept in nice conditions, and shipped in trailers that are appropriate for traveling long distances.

I don't agree that slaughter should be allowed, but if that's what is going to happen, then the animals should be treated nicely.

Call me a treehugger if you want to!


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## FutureVetGirl

What northernmama said is exactly what I was trying to put across. Pretty much literally exactly what she said.

My words don't exactly come across right. About the physical pain and stuff, what I meant is that if it's not done to THAT horse, it has no memory of it. If someone is yelling at a different horse, unless that horse is extremely sensitive, it won't remember anything about it, and won't be traumatized by it.


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## ponyboy

FutureVetGirl said:


> You might say that the experience would be traumatic for them. That they can smell the death, the blood, the fear. If the animal is going to be killed, what would it matter?


If humane treatment doesn't matter when the horse is going to be slaughtered, why does it matter at any other time? What is the difference?


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## amightytarzan5

Agreed ponyboy!

I just don't agree with the fact that this inhumane slaughter should be going on. Y'all can disagree with me and show me "facts" all you want. There are videos to prove the horror of this act. My opinion's not changing anytime soon.


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## NorthernMama

amightytarzan5 said:


> What I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter how seldom that the situation in the video happens, it shouldn't be happening at all!


Well, that's extremely idealistic and unrealistic. There are a lot of things that shouldn't happen at all, but life (and death) is life. Children shouldn't be abused, animals shouldn't be hit by motorists, and doctors should ALWAYS diagnose correctly. Life just isn't like that. Sorry.


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## TxHorseMom

northernmama said:


> amightytarzan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter how seldom that the situation in the video happens, it shouldn't be happening at all!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's extremely idealistic and unrealistic. There are a lot of things that shouldn't happen at all, but life (and death) is life. Children shouldn't be abused, animals shouldn't be hit by motorists, and doctors should ALWAYS diagnose correctly. Life just isn't like that. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Finally, a voice of reason!

I don't think that anybody WANTS slaughter. I would like to live in a land of butterflies and daisies where everyone and everything dies in its sleep a painless death. But that is not reality. What I would really like to see is the transportation, holding and actual slaughtering of animals, ALL ANIMALS, be more humane. (This includes, cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, geese, etc)

I am sure that there are a few people out there in the world who don't use/eat animal products of any kind. But the majority of us do. (are those _leather_ riding boots you are wearing?) And I think it's our responsibility to take care of the earth and the animals who live in it. And a part of doing that is by making their lives _and deaths _as humane as possible. Believe me, starving to death in some field is NOT humane. And all those chemicals used in the supposedly "humane euthenasia" are poision to the earth and the animals and people that are still here. Not to mention very expensive and also difficult to dispose of the bodies as they are unable to be used in ANY way and is unsafe to bury if you even have the land available.

I think it's time to stop blaming people and start trying to find some real answers.


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## amightytarzan5

> Well, that's extremely idealistic and unrealistic. There are a lot of things that shouldn't happen at all, but life (and death) is life. Children shouldn't be abused, animals shouldn't be hit by motorists, and doctors should ALWAYS diagnose correctly. Life just isn't like that. Sorry.


I know what goes on in the world. I'm not naive at all. I agree, none of it should happen. But, if something can be prevented, like this form of animal abuse, then it should. That's all I'm saying.

I have agreed at least 3 times that the slaughtering process should be more humane. I don't agree with slaughter at all. Any kind. But that's just because I've seen what those poor animals go through and I refuse to be a part of it. I'm not blaming anyone, but I don't like how uneducated people are when it comes to killing animals humanely.

BTW, my riding boots are pleather! :lol:


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## Horserider

I'm going to bring up a point that I don't think I've seen anyone mention yet. In the US horses are NOT bred and raised for food. In fact we use many chemicals that are not approved for animals intended for food such as dewormers, medications, supplements and many other things. How do we know this meat is even safe? Not that I care because I'm strongly anti-slaughter and I always have been. 

Yes I believe that perhaps conditions for all animals should be reconsidered. And how do we really know that all the horses are dead right after they've been shot in the head?


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## Snapple122

amightytarzan- I completely agree with you 

Everyone is going to think that I am living in a land of rainbows and butterflies, but I'm not. I know what is going on in the world. 
And the majority of horses going to slaughter are in fact, not "backyard horses" or horses people don't care for. No, most of the horses that go to slaughter are race horses who don't make it at the track.. young horses that could be wonderful riding horses.


> What types of horses are being slaughtered? Aren't these old, sick horses?
> 
> According to 2001 field studies conducted by Temple Grandin et al., 70% of all horses at the slaughter plant were in good, fat, or obese condition; 72% were considered to be "sound" of limb; 84% were of average age; and 96% had no behavioral issues.[6] Slaughter plants do not want old, sick horses for obvious reasons.


--http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=608#types

so, your theory that horses that are going to slaughter are old, diseased, and mistreated is sadly mistaken. 

I've seen pictures of horses in the loading corrals and walking up to the slaughter house, forced to walk in between two fences to their death, and I tell you, you can see the fear in their eyes. 
I would never touch a peice of horsemeat, let alone eat it. 

and yes, I do think that horses are not on the same level as cows and chickens. 
Horses are not raised for slaughter, and they are people's pets, and they have intelligence. 

I do believe cows should be treated more humanely in the transort to slaughter, but I am not against their slaughter.. but I am against the slaughter of horses. It is so unnecessary.

anyway, that is my view.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion


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## Snapple122

> Quote from a slaughterhouse worker:
> 
> "You move so fast, you don't have time to wait till a horse bleeds out. You skin him as he bleeds. Sometimes a horse's nose is down in the blood, blowing bubbles, and he suffocates."


--http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=608#types

That sounds pretty inhumane to me. 
It is disgusting and I can not believe people support that.


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## FutureVetGirl

> and yes, I do think that horses are not on the same level as cows and chickens.
> Horses are not raised for slaughter, and they are people's pets, and they have intelligence.


If you're just talking about in the States, I would somewhat agree with you. But a TON of horses over in Europe, Asia, and other places DO raise horses JUST for meat.

And have you ever truly been around cows and chickens that are PETS? Just like a horse that's raised only for slaughter can be as dumb as a cow, a cow that's a pet can be as smart (or smarter) than most horses. You just can't ride a cow... so that's why a lot of people begin saying that horses are "higher" in value and status.

All I was saying from the original post is that sometimes it's needed. At least until the horse population can go down enough (while people are told (and enforced) to stop breeding their low-quality mares and stallions), it might be needed. The conditions need to be improved though.


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## amightytarzan5

Finally, someone agrees with me! :lol: 

Intelligence does not define the worth of the animal. I do think that horses are "higher" than cows and chickens because you can ride them and get work out of them. You don't see as many horses and mules plowing fields like you used to, but they did. You never see cows plowing fields or even working for any purpose besides meat and milk.

I'm not saying that cows deserve to die or anything. If it was my opinion, no animals would die. It's not the horses' faults that they are being overbred. They shouldn't be punished for it. And, yes, I consider a horrid death to be a punishment.


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## carriedenaee

I beleive that horse slaughter is neccessary....

At first when i saw the videos...i cried

but now, we face the decision of our government disposing of them in another way....which may be even more cruel

I beleive that population control is a must for all animals....i think that killing a horse for meat is no different than killing a deer, or squirrel
what i beleive should happen is the way that horses are slaughtered should be changed..there are more effeicient ways to dispose a horse on the spot and still have good use of the animals meat...for human consumption if you must..

there is no sense in punchin a nail at them till you kill them....that is horrible...i think that there could be a more humane way to do that


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## FGRanch

I agree with you most of the way Vet Girl!

Northern Mama I love your post that was awesome! (the first one you mad on this topic, not sure if there was more) 

Horses are NOT pets.


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## Snapple122

> Horses are NOT pets.


are you serious?
what are they then?


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## JustDressageIt

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Horses are NOT pets.


Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't... most horses are bred and raised as working horses, not pets... but I pamper Maia, she's my girl, and I do consider her to be more of a "pet" than a working animal.. having said that, if she were really a pet, would I even consider selling her? Probably not.. my cat and dog are with me for life, why not Maia? 
Who knows.. I'm still trying to decide whether or not she's a forever horse...


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## minihorse927

Do not quote me on this information on this first part, but I think I am correct.

In India?(this is the part I am not sure about) cows are considered sacred, so they eat horse meat instead, right?

Now, my point is, we do not come to their country and slaughter their cows for the United States to eat, so do not come to our country and slaughter OUR horses for meat. Get your own horses.

Also, any animal can be a pet, I do not care if it is a dog, cat, rabbit, horse, chicken, cow, pig, or whatever. If you do not own it to profit from it and treat it like a pet, it is a pet. I know my horses are my pets. I even call them my KIDS with 4 legs. I show my horses, so yes, they are also working animals, but still considered to be a PET in my eyes. 

After all this is the definition for a PET
a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility.

I also agree that we do need to stop the overbreeding and take horses away from the people who breed just to see a baby in their backyard. Every horse born should have a reason to have been bred and born, and eventually given a job to do. Whether this job range from being a backyard pet to a top world champion race or show horse to the working horses still plowing up ground to this very day. When you want to breed a horse, ask yourself why, and if your answer is just because I want a baby, THEN DO NOT BREED THE HORSE!

One more complaint, STOP breeding for color, breed horses for conformation first, color second. I know color breeders, and yes the horse is gorgeous to look at it's coloring, but the confirmational faults ruin the horse. I have seen the most colorful and beautifully marked horses so cow hocked or knock kneed so bad, they can hardly walk.


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## Snapple122

minihorse- agreed


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## TxHorseMom

Yes, cows are sacred in some places, but horses are not sacred in this country. Horses are livestock. You may treat them as pets, but they are still considered by law as livestock. I know someone who loves cows. She dresses one particular cow for occasions like holidays and the cows birthday. Takes pics of it. Very cute. But the cow, even her cows, are still livestock. The reason we don't get other countries cows, I believe India was mentioned, is because they are sacred. It is against their religion to eat cows, just as in some religions you can not eat pork. But, if you looked at these sacred cows, you would see that they are also starving as they are walking the streets. We don't need to slaughter Indias cows for meat because we are not a third world country and can grow our own food. Also, the horses that are being slaughtered, with a very, very small percentage are unwanted. If they were wanted, then they wouldn't be at the auctions, or on the trucks if someone wanted them. Not all horses are someone's "baby".


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## geewillikers

Ugh.

I don't support any large factory slaughter, which is what horse slaughter, and most other slaughter is.

Local farms, peeps that breed their own goats, cattle, pigs, chickens FOR THEIR OWN CONSUMPTION, or to supply a small town is the only slaughter I will ever support, Do you think we need all this meat anyway???? C'mon. Horse slaughter is factory slaughter. It is not humane, the employed work in terrible conditions, workers become desensitized and depressed, the kill floors are NEVER sanitary, and animals die in agony, anxiety and fear. If someone wants to send their horse to slaughter, they should honor it and slaughter it themselves for their own consumption.

Just my humble opinion :lol:


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## farmpony84

FehrGroundRanch said:


> I agree with you most of the way Vet Girl!
> 
> Northern Mama I love your post that was awesome! (the first one you mad on this topic, not sure if there was more)
> 
> Horses are NOT pets.


I think I disagree... At my home, horses are pets. I bought my first horse as a 3 year old, he's 24 now. I have a 29 year old that is not rideable anymore. To me, they are family. BUT I do understand your comment, because to some people they are assets. If you are running a business, alot of times, no matter how much you love a particular horse, everything has it's price. And if you are running a business then a horse that is not useable for breeding/riding/sales/etc. then it's a burden. 

For me, they are definitely pets and they are in forever homes. Not everyone has that option. 

I hate the idea of killing an animal. I really hate it. BUT I also think that getting rid of the last slaughter houses in the US has actually hurt the horse industry. I think it may have been a huge mistake. 

I don't believe in hunting either, but my husband does and I can tell you right now, if he "murders" a deer, then my butt is eating it because that animal is not dying in vein! So... I don't know...

those are my thoughts...


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## minihorse927

TxHorseMom said:


> Yes, cows are sacred in some places, but horses are not sacred in this country. Horses are livestock. You may treat them as pets, but they are still considered by law as livestock. I know someone who loves cows. She dresses one particular cow for occasions like holidays and the cows birthday. Takes pics of it. Very cute. But the cow, even her cows, are still livestock. The reason we don't get other countries cows, I believe India was mentioned, is because they are sacred. It is against their religion to eat cows, just as in some religions you can not eat pork. But, if you looked at these sacred cows, you would see that they are also starving as they are walking the streets. We don't need to slaughter Indias cows for meat because we are not a third world country and can grow our own food. Also, the horses that are being slaughtered, with a very, very small percentage are unwanted. If they were wanted, then they wouldn't be at the auctions, or on the trucks if someone wanted them. Not all horses are someone's "baby".


I know that not all horses are someone babies. I know people who see them only as a business and could care less about these horse just so long as they make a buck in the end. My point was that I am not completely against horse slaughter, but there needs to be more humane ways of doing it then a nail to the head 5 or 6 times. I know a lot of people who want to inject them with the overdose of tranquilizer, but this makes the animal unsafe for human consumption due to the chemicle in the drug. I know that in every religion/country there are different animals are sacred such as cows or pigs or whatever. I know there are unwanted horses out there because I have owned and rehabilitated many of them and placed them with a new home where they still reside, and most of them I gave away for free to a good home. I know I am a sap when I see an abused or starved horse because I just want to take them all and make them fat and happy. I know this is not possible, but at least I can save a few from seeing this fate in the end. I do not want to see horses slaughtered and yes they technically are a livestock animal. I also agree with what was said before as in the fact that the horse market has fell apart since the slaughter has been banned from the US. I know I have not had as many people bringing horses in to board or train at my stable, and when they are asked why, they just say there is no more money in these horses anymore so now they are just fat pasture ornaments unless they are an exceptional animal in the show circuit. 

We all understand that horses are a livestock and that there is still a need for a slaughter market. We just need to make it so that there is one shot, not 4,5, or 6 to the head before the horse is gone. This is not the right way to do this. Like was said before, some countries do not eat pork, some do not eat cows, and in the US we eat just about anything that moves other than horses, dogs, and cats. This all comes down to a country/region/religion basis. My point is being, just make it more humane, don't hang the poor horse up and stab him in the chest to bleed him out while he is still kicking, they didn't ask for that, they did not ask for any of it.


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## FGRanch

I love my horses dearly and most of my horses are not for sale at any price. They will grow old and die with me, but that still does not make them pets. They are considerd livestock. I also had a cow that I would have kept forever (she has an accident and had to be put down) but she was still not a pet, but livestock.b

The person above me, Minihorse. Made a very good point. Horse slaughtered should be allowed but it should be much more humane.


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## wildhorsemoon

*People did create this problem*

Stop blaming people for this problem ? HHmmm seems to me people created this problem, and it is time to treat these animals with more respect. They deserve alot more than they are getting when they are sold to the killers. For any horse to end up in a can or on someones plate after all they have done, and continue to do for us is shameful. The treatment they recieve is beyond horrendus.
This is 2008 and we are still killing 10 million dogs and cats in the US every year. The excess of horses is also the result of people. When does it stop ? The racehorse Ferdinand was sold to the killers after he made his owners millions, but went sterile. This is wrong. It will never be ok with me.


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## geewillikers

*Re: People did create this problem*



wildhorsemoon said:


> Stop blaming people for this problem ? HHmmm seems to me people created this problem, and it is time to treat these animals with more respect. They deserve alot more than they are getting when they are sold to the killers. For any horse to end up in a can or on someones plate after all they have done, and continue to do for us is shameful. The treatment they recieve is beyond horrendus.
> This is 2008 and we are still killing 10 million dogs and cats in the US every year. The excess of horses is also the result of people. When does it stop ? The racehorse Ferdinand was sold to the killers after he made his owners millions, but went sterile. This is wrong. It will never be ok with me.


Agreed.

What does horse slaughter have to do with being vegan and vegetarian? How did that get into the picture? Factory slaughtering is awful. It doesn't matter if you're a carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore. If one does eat meat, one should care where the meat comes from, right?


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## ponyboy

minihorse927 said:


> Now, my point is, we do not come to their country and slaughter their cows for the United States to eat, so do not come to our country and slaughter OUR horses for meat. Get your own horses.


That's my point too. We can't control what other countries do with their horses but we are responsible for what happens to ours.


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## Solon

Is it because we don't need to slaughter their cows for us to eat?

I don't like that south Americans eat guinea pigs, but you know what, it's their culture. I don't have a right to tell them they can't. I don't have a right to tell Europe they can't eat horse meat and no one has a right to tell me I can't eat beef and venison.

I don't believe the U.S. is the only country they get horses from. 

Closing our slaughterhouses doesn't close the ones in Canada or Mexico. 

What needs to be done is to have HUMANE dispatching of all animals at the slaughter houses. That's where the focus should really be.


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## ponyboy

While I find people's attitudes toward this to be pretty hypocritical. But anyway, I'll shut up.


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## geewillikers

ponyboy said:


> While I find people's attitudes toward this to be pretty hypocritical. But anyway, I'll shut up.


Don't shut up! 

Of course people are hypocritical. This world is full of hypocrisy. We're only human! But, the topic is great to discuss. That's what controversy is all about- HYPOCRISY!!!!! :lol:


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## TxHorseMom

ponyboy said:


> While I find people's attitudes toward this to be pretty hypocritical. But anyway, I'll shut up.


I think that is because it is such a difficult thing to discuss and IMO most people who are "for" slaughter, really don't want it either. What I am trying to say is that I WISH we didn't have a need for it. I don't really like it, and I would never send one of my horses to slaughter. BUT, I do see a need for it. (unfortunately) I wish there wasn't. But what is the saying "if wishes were horse we all could ride".


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## califcowgirl

It has been very interesting reading all of the posts on this thread. I have to say that I think it was a mistake to shut down the slaughter houses because the horses are just travelling further to be killed. As much as we love our horses, they are livestock. I don't know how many times a horse has to be shot in the head with a nail to die, but vet says it is only once, and I would tend to believe that. I don't think it is the way they are killed that is the problem, but more the trip there and treatment after they get there. That is what needs to be changed. If it can be done humanely, then there is no reason to send the horses to Mexico or Canada. 
There is a new bill that I have read would actually allow horse owners to be prosecuted if it was found that they sold their horse with the knowledge that that horse was going to a slaughterhouse. So, if the owner cannot afford to feed the horse and can't sell or give the horse away and they can't find a rescue foundation to take the horse, then what are they to do?


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

FutureVetGirl said:


> I've seen more than my share of Animal and Equine (same thing... sorta) Cruelty in my years, even though I only have fifteen of them. I live in Serbia, a country where the words Animal Cruelty have no meaning. To anyone. If you have a dog that you don't want to hear barking anymore, you either remove or destroy the vocal cords. If you have a horse that you can't afford to feed. You keep it, but just don't feed it.
> 
> I have not grown cold to it. In fact, quite the opposite. I know what real animal cruelty is. And I have to say this: Slaughtering a horse for food, whether for a dog, or for a human, is NOT cruelty.
> 
> I'm not saying that conditions should stay how they are. But I'm also not saying that the animals need to be put in 16 x 16 stalls all on their own, with a ton of feed. I've known quite a few people who believe that if you're going to kill an animal, you need to make it's whole life as "happy" as possible. Sure, every horse needs to at least be cared for, but a horse can be perfectly content in a semi-large paddock with quite a few other horses, for probably no more than a few days.
> 
> You might say that the experience would be traumatic for them. That they can smell the death, the blood, the fear. If the animal is going to be killed, what would it matter? It's not cruelty.
> 
> Conditions aren't to be improved for the animal's sake, but for the safety of the slaughterers. I've also heard people say that those people need to die. Those people are usually poor legal immigrant hispanics who are so put down by their caucasian neighbors, that the only jobs they can find are the ones that everyone else looks down on. Many times those people lose fingers and even arms to various conditions.
> 
> The animal feels no pain when the bolt goes through the head. Rarely does it miss. And by rarely, I mean 1 out of every thousand horses that come through.
> 
> Which would you rather have? And answer honestly, just this question, not saying how I'm a cruel person who wants all the horses dead. I'm not asking for a debate. Just a quick and simple answer to this question. Which would you rather have? A ton of horses sitting in someone's backyard, rotting away while their still alive, or a quick and painless death for those horses who just can't go to some little girl in New York? You tell me.


I am in some agreement with you, but seriously, what are you on?? Horses CAN smell death, they can feel the fear, they know when the end is to come. They arent stupid or ignorant. Seriously...the bolt is very inhumane. Alot of the time it doesnt even hit the horse directly, and it misses. Then they are hoisted up on those chains to have their throats slit and they are still alive...you would like a horse to go through that? And you have no problem with it? And alot of those deaths arent "quick and painless". They are subjected to hours, even days, in double decker trailers with no food or water, and are hauled around and hit with cattle prods. Have you seen the pictures? And, it does matter that a horse dies. They should be shown some respect! Better then what they are shown at the slaugterhouses how it is at this point. I agree with slaughter, but like alot of the other people posting here, only if it is humane. But then it should be the same for cattle, chickens, rabbits, hogs, sheep, goats ect. But slaughter how it is, should not stand where it still resides. End of story...


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## .Delete.

this has no refrence to what is being said but. Im going to a slaughter yard this friday. Im going to take pictures , i will post them when i get back.


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## sandy2u1

i think the problem with this country is that we use things at our disposal...never thinking of the consequence to anything or anybody. somebody mentioned a race horse that was slaughtered after all that money he had won. the owners of that horse started him to young, knowing he wouldnt have a long career in racing...they used his winnings im sure to buy nice fancy homes with lots of acreage, probably more horses to wind up with the same fate. if thats not the time to hold the owner responsibe, then when is? they should have been made to use a portion of that money on the retraining or upkeep of that horse. they are not trash that should be disposed of whenever they are used up. same thing goes for the horse that has given his entire life working for us. he has earned his keep. we get them to trust and respect us and do whatever duty it is that we want them to do...then when we have used them as much as we can....we kill em. its very sad


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## Zab

I see no problem with killing animals.
But I do see a problem with how it's done.

I rather slaughter my horse than sell him. Why? Because here, standardbreds has such a low status, that there is a big, big chance that he'll start to wander between homes and evetually end up on an illegal horrsetransport to italy, where he'll go for days without food, water or space to stand up. Posibly die in the process. 
I rather see him have a decent life and die peacefully. But maybe that's just me.
Luckily, I plan to keep him for many years to come.

I rather see horses killed, in a controlled and decent way, than to find them abused because there are too many horses and not enough people caring for them.

BUT... lots of things has to be improved, and even the last minutes should be as un-dramatic as possible. And we should do something about the industries that breed too many horses.


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## Deb

califcowgirl said:


> ......
> There is a new bill that I have read would actually allow horse owners to be prosecuted if it was found that they sold their horse with the knowledge that that horse was going to a slaughterhouse. So, if the owner cannot afford to feed the horse and can't sell or give the horse away and they can't find a rescue foundation to take the horse, then what are they to do?


Give it a wonderful last meal and call the vet. Your horse carried you without complaining for how many years, can you not do this one last kindness for him?


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## geewillikers

Deb said:


> Give it a wonderful last meal and call the vet. Your horse carried you without complaining for how many years, can you not do this one last kindness for him?


Exactly, Deb.


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## chasin the dream

personally..im abig fan of slaughter.i think they should continue it.bc without it we are going to have sooo many horses.


UNDER ONE CONDITION! it must be MUCH more humane.thats why i don't supposrt it. it is so inhumane.if they *slaughtered* the animals HUMANELY i would be VERY glad we had horse slaughter.and i feel weird saying that, but its true.should these animals suffer for the rest of their lives or should they be humanely uthenized and used for something good and hed their lives ended HAPPILY? and humanely might i add?


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## 4EverPainted

I dont think horses should be killed/slaughtered whatever at all.
-points to signature- they helped us all through history and still carry us proudly and do our bidding, what have cows, goats, sheep, geese etc done for us in OUR culture (not indias) to really help us along and maintain our way of life and also progress us further? I think a species that has done so much for us should be respected and treated kindly, at least fed. i know that this cannot happen neccesiarily but i really wish it would.


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## Zab

And often it is much nicer to put them down than to keep them alive at all costs - because sometimes they are sick, sometimes there just isn't any possibility to giver it a good home and - if there are too many horses, more horses will suffer and each horse will have a lesser value. (moneywise - which unfortunatly is important in the case of keepig them well)

Cows have ploughed for us and all of the animals has died to feed us. Horses has worked for us, but as the other animald they are forced to it. All animals deserve respect - except a few humans.


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## 4EverPainted

Zab said:


> And often it is much nicer to put them down than to keep them alive at all costs - because sometimes they are sick, sometimes there just isn't any possibility to giver it a good home and - if there are too many horses, more horses will suffer and each horse will have a lesser value. (moneywise - which unfortunatly is important in the case of keepig them well)
> 
> Cows have ploughed for us and all of the animals has died to feed us. Horses has worked for us, but as the other animald they are forced to it. All animals deserve respect - except a few humans.


ok, i understand your point. i just wish (like you guys) it is much more humane.


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## geewillikers

.Delete. said:


> this has no refrence to what is being said but. Im going to a slaughter yard this friday. Im going to take pictures , i will post them when i get back.



Ummm... please don't:-(


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## 4EverPainted

geewillikers said:


> Ummm... please don't:-(


please do.
i would like to see what goes on there.


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## ScarlettPompey

4everpainted... unfortunately somtimes horses do need to be killed. In the wild, a severe lameness would leave them unable to escape predators and they would thus succumb to an attack and die. For the domesticateds: I too often see horses artificially being kept alive with no favour to them whatsoever.

So sometimes, it is in their best interests.

Interesting article and some very interesting views! I for one would struggle to eat anything that I had had a 'partnership' with...dogs/cats/horses... It seems unfair to eat one of your 'herd' ot 'pack'. However, that is because I am from Britain and it is not part of my culture, I think we should be careful not to knock the traditions and staple of diets of countries!


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## Kincsem

In some countries dogs and cats are slaughtered for food and not always humanely. Should "unwanted" dogs and cats be inhumanely slaughtered to satisy foreign appetites like horses are? Most dogs and cats do not even work for their living. Should dogs and cats that are impounded be sold to research labs that experiment on them and cause them immense suffering? Some people think they should. I do not. In some countries a person too old to work might starve to death or die of exposure because he is no longer useful.In some countries he might be eaten since cannibalism still exists. The world needs to change for the better and those who accept the horrors and cruelty of the world as it is should not be discouraging people who care from doing everything they can to make this world a better place for everybody deserving of it whether they are human animals or non human animals. A person who works hard for many years in many countries get a pension and or social security and even those who never worked are usually cared for. Some of us think that non human workers are entitled to care for life. NY city police horses are pensioned for instance. The body of an animal humanley euthanized can be rendered and utilized. Millions of dogs and cats are euthanized with the same drug used in horses. If these chemicals are considered poisionous to the environment when used on the much smaller number of horses how come it is not considered harmful when used on millions of other animals many of which go into landfills. I believe that every decent person in every country should take a stand against any and all cruelty to any species no matter how long it has existed. It should not be considered part of any culture anywhere. Cruelty to animals usually leads to cruelty to people. A humane end for so called food animals has been law since 1959 it has not been enforced and because it has not been enforced I chose to become a vegetarian. Human bodies that are buried have embalming fluid in them which is poisionous and there seems to be lots of space made available for them. The bodies of humans can sometimes be used for food and instead they are buried or cremated. The bodies of dogs and cats if they were slaughtered the same as the horses could be eaten also. Horse slaughter and cow slaughter,etc have been done cruelly just like dog and cat slaughter and bull fighting torture slaughter. Meat is not a necessity in the human diet and when it involves cruelty it makes the world a worse place. A horse just like a human will remember suffering caused to others especially if they are others that they care about and the horrors they have witnessed will be remembered by their souls just as they are remembered by ours. It causes me suffering to think of them suffering even though we have never met in this lifetime. Someday we may meet in heaven and their tormentors may meet in hell. According to some liars an animal needs to be alive when it is hoisted so the pumping of his heart will make him bleed out otherwise the meat will be unfit to eat. That is totally untrue. Deer are killed and eaten without being bled out alive and so are other animals. Cattle and probably some horses also have been skinned alive and hollering in pain. A head gate and a guillotine would be more humane especially in conjunction with a .380 bullet properly placed before decapitation. Then the animal would be dead before it was hoisted and it would be safer for people. The sticker who stabs the animal in the neck to make it bleed out is the person most frequently injured and stickers would no longer be part of the line. In cattle skinning a live animal causes it to be a dark cutter and unfit for human consumption. Humane transport and humane slaughter would mean not only that animals would not suffer but that humans would not be wasting lives and meat which is what cruelty does. Large numbers of cruelty victims bodies are never eaten but are disposed of. They go on dead piles. I dream of things that could be and should be and if man becomes truly civilized will happen. A world of kindness compassion tolerance and love where there is no war no crime and no cruelty.


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## DarkChylde

This last post was very good. I want our horses to go that way.



Hay, Solon, wus'p?


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## geewillikers

Kincsem said:


> In some countries dogs and cats are slaughtered for food and not always humanely. Should "unwanted" dogs and cats be inhumanely slaughtered to satisy foreign appetites like horses are? Most dogs and cats do not even work for their living. Should dogs and cats that are impounded be sold to research labs that experiment on them and cause them immense suffering? Some people think they should. I do not. In some countries a person too old to work might starve to death or die of exposure because he is no longer useful.In some countries he might be eaten since cannibalism still exists. The world needs to change for the better and those who accept the horrors and cruelty of the world as it is should not be discouraging people who care from doing everything they can to make this world a better place for everybody deserving of it whether they are human animals or non human animals. A person who works hard for many years in many countries get a pension and or social security and even those who never worked are usually cared for. Some of us think that non human workers are entitled to care for life. NY city police horses are pensioned for instance. The body of an animal humanley euthanized can be rendered and utilized. Millions of dogs and cats are euthanized with the same drug used in horses. If these chemicals are considered poisionous to the environment when used on the much smaller number of horses how come it is not considered harmful when used on millions of other animals many of which go into landfills. I believe that every decent person in every country should take a stand against any and all cruelty to any species no matter how long it has existed. It should not be considered part of any culture anywhere. Cruelty to animals usually leads to cruelty to people. A humane end for so called food animals has been law since 1959 it has not been enforced and because it has not been enforced I chose to become a vegetarian. Human bodies that are buried have embalming fluid in them which is poisionous and there seems to be lots of space made available for them. The bodies of humans can sometimes be used for food and instead they are buried or cremated. The bodies of dogs and cats if they were slaughtered the same as the horses could be eaten also. Horse slaughter and cow slaughter,etc have been done cruelly just like dog and cat slaughter and bull fighting torture slaughter. Meat is not a necessity in the human diet and when it involves cruelty it makes the world a worse place. A horse just like a human will remember suffering caused to others especially if they are others that they care about and the horrors they have witnessed will be remembered by their souls just as they are remembered by ours. It causes me suffering to think of them suffering even though we have never met in this lifetime. Someday we may meet in heaven and their tormentors may meet in hell. According to some liars an animal needs to be alive when it is hoisted so the pumping of his heart will make him bleed out otherwise the meat will be unfit to eat. That is totally untrue. Deer are killed and eaten without being bled out alive and so are other animals. Cattle and probably some horses also have been skinned alive and hollering in pain. A head gate and a guillotine would be more humane especially in conjunction with a .380 bullet properly placed before decapitation. Then the animal would be dead before it was hoisted and it would be safer for people. The sticker who stabs the animal in the neck to make it bleed out is the person most frequently injured and stickers would no longer be part of the line. In cattle skinning a live animal causes it to be a dark cutter and unfit for human consumption. Humane transport and humane slaughter would mean not only that animals would not suffer but that humans would not be wasting lives and meat which is what cruelty does. Large numbers of cruelty victims bodies are never eaten but are disposed of. They go on dead piles. I dream of things that could be and should be and if man becomes truly civilized will happen. A world of kindness compassion tolerance and love where there is no war no crime and no cruelty.


Thank you so much. I completely agree, and have stated my feelings about slaughter and cruelty towards humans and animals elsewhere on the forum...some of which have been deleted.:-|


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## Phantomcolt18

i think slaughter i horrible since horses are prey animals the smell of blood makes them panic. I like my animals to go peacefully, quietly, and with their dignity and pride intact. I mean it's nice to know your horse is at peace when you euthanize them at home with your vet. it's not tamatic or stressful for you or your horse. yet in slaughter houses the horses are under so much stress.


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## Kirsti Arndt

I agree that most US horses are not bred for food-brokers looking for a quick buck= find them-race tracks, farms, advertisements for cheap horses-and i agree with TX horse mom-answers you young uns!!!!!!- we need answers to the question of cruelty vs cheap food and so on and so on=my generation didnt come up with much it is up to you-

my boots are synthetic-i do not wear leather, i could be called an american hypocrite as i do eat meat.


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## Flexion

I support the slaughter of horses in all honesty.

So many idiots breeding only for color these days, and not for conformation or anything like that. Please if you plan to breed your horse do it responsibly. Focus on conformation and not color.

Another point I'd like to bring up is, many veterinary associations support humane slaughter because when they're euthanized the bodies of the animals end up taking up space in our landfills.

And a quick bullet to the brain is painless and immediate.:wink:


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## Kentucky

i agree with you 100%, exspecailly about the idiot breeders.


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## Zab

Yeah after seeing an injection going wrong, I'll so chose the bullet in his head if I ever have to...
(but I'd do it at home with a vet and I'm nt sure he can be sent as food due to medication when they cut his balls..)


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## Siggav

I'm Icelandic. There are roughtly 300.000 people in the country and 80.000 horses. That's a lot of horses.

The horses are usually raised hands off in big herds until it's time to get them broke so until they're around 3 years or so they're not "pets" at all, i.e they've barely had human contact and the contact they've had is just so that they won't go completely wild.

There's quite a lot of foals bread every year and the excess, the ones that don't look too great or move too well etc. get culled and eaten. I've eaten foal meat multiple times (you can buy it in the supermarkets and it's usually cheaper than veal or beef) and it's quite tasty.

Also when the horses are being worked on, young horses that are dangerous or mentally unstable usually end up in the freezer. Some of the horse farmers slaughter those types of horses themselves. I'm not quite sure how legal that is but I know it happens. I was visiting a horse farmer and she had horse steak for us in the evening and that was the only time I've eaten horse meat and known what the colour of the horse used to be, that was really weird though. That had been a 3 year old mare that had attacked the farmer multiple times. So the gun came out eventually. With so many horses there's no reason to spend resources on horses that are mentally unstable so I don't have a problem with that. This type of fairly rigorous culling also improves the breed over all.

Anyway horses are large herbivores just like deer and cattle so I don't have a problem eating them. I wouldn't want to eat a horse I knew or a named riding horse but the horses generally slaughtered back home are young foals that haven't really had any human contact and often aren't named.

Cats and dogs are carnivores and it doesn't feel right eating them. Omnivores I'm on the brink with so I understand people who don't eat pigs. Pigs are really intelligent as well, no less so that horses anyway.
However humane treatment of animals in slaughter houses is very important to me. I'd say it should be more important to people who eat meat than the vegitarians since they don't have to worry about their money going to bad people. I.e I'd like my money to go to people who treat their animals well since I'm not going to stop eating meat.


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## DarkChylde

I agree with not knocking the diets or cultures of another country, but here is the problem, WE (Americans) supply THEM with thier horses TO eat! We, who have a culture that DOESN"T eat horses (and polls even on forums that support slaughter show that no ones wants to eat horse meat in this country) supplies the countries that DO with thier horsemeat. I don't care if they wanna eat horses, elephants, or baby marmosets. But what I DO want is for OUR country, which doesn't eat horsemeat, to stop the supply FROM here! Let them eat their own horses, I say.


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## DarkChylde

We don't owe deer, cattle or pigs the debt for the progression of our society as we do horses.

I am a vegan, is it ok to eat me?:lol:


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## Flexion

chasin the dream said:


> UNDER ONE CONDITION! it must be MUCH more humane.


I agree with you. I am all for horse slaughter but I'd really like to see the conditions of those horses slaughtered improved. In most foreign countries they'll slit the animal's throats and let them bleed to death, or stab them in the spine with a knife. 

In the U.S., though, I believe the slaughter houses that closed down would just shoot a bullet into the animal's head and it would die instantly and painlessly. Sadly the other countries don't do that =/


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## DarkChylde

Actually, it wasn't a bullet, it was a bolt, a rod, and the technique and devices were originally designed for cows and never changed, plus most of the horses that went to the bleed tank still had beating hearts, it is quite possible that they were merely paralyzed, but not dead when bled.

I have also seen where they hafta shoot many of them several times, and it is hardly a clean kill.

That being said, I am not sure that a big pink shot is any less traumatic than someone who can secure the horse's head and make one quick, clean shot, but what goes on in slaughter houses is hardly that.


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## Zab

I agree with you.
But I can't chose horse meat here, the little that's sold is marked as ''nöt'' so people think it's cow... *le sigh*
Or it's for sandwiches, but them it's imported from Italy.
And where does all cheap horses here risk ending up since the slaughterhouses isn't too entusiastic about them and people don't want them anymore? On illegal, cruel transports to Italy, during which they won't get water, fod or even enough space to lie down. those who die first are the lucky ones.

So I much rather slaughter/kill my horse than selling him, since he's ''just'' a cheap standardbred which tends to change homes quite a bit and even if I'm careful whom to sell to, the new owners might want a ''better'' horse and sell him to that nice looking man who wants a (cheap) horse for his daughter (they have acted like that to get hand on the horses for their transports) and forgets checking his credibility. :/ I'm not gonna risk that!

Then I rather support horse slaughter in my home country and help get the prices up so that the illegal transports won't hand in any money.

I understand that not everybody wants to eat horse but to me; when it's dead it's dead. It's not less honourable to be part of my food chain than to be part of the worms foodchain or get burnt and not be part of anything.
But then again, I'd eat humans too if I wasn't one myself and if we didn't eat all this crap  If I get fed to a lion after my death, I won't care. My spirit and soul arn't there anymore.
(Tho I admit I'd have trouble eating a horse I know... I can barely eat a duck if I have to pluck it myself.. but moraly I see no problem with it)

It's importnt that the last time untill death is as respectful, lacks stress and is as painless as they possibly can be.



Siggav said:


> I'm Icelandic. There are roughtly 300.000 people in the country and 80.000 horses. That's a lot of horses.
> 
> The horses are usually raised hands off in big herds until it's time to get them broke so until they're around 3 years or so they're not "pets" at all, i.e they've barely had human contact and the contact they've had is just so that they won't go completely wild.
> 
> There's quite a lot of foals bread every year and the excess, the ones that don't look too great or move too well etc. get culled and eaten. I've eaten foal meat multiple times (you can buy it in the supermarkets and it's usually cheaper than veal or beef) and it's quite tasty.
> 
> Also when the horses are being worked on, young horses that are dangerous or mentally unstable usually end up in the freezer. Some of the horse farmers slaughter those types of horses themselves. I'm not quite sure how legal that is but I know it happens. I was visiting a horse farmer and she had horse steak for us in the evening and that was the only time I've eaten horse meat and known what the colour of the horse used to be, that was really weird though. That had been a 3 year old mare that had attacked the farmer multiple times. So the gun came out eventually. With so many horses there's no reason to spend resources on horses that are mentally unstable so I don't have a problem with that. This type of fairly rigorous culling also improves the breed over all.
> 
> Anyway horses are large herbivores just like deer and cattle so I don't have a problem eating them. I wouldn't want to eat a horse I knew or a named riding horse but the horses generally slaughtered back home are young foals that haven't really had any human contact and often aren't named.
> 
> Cats and dogs are carnivores and it doesn't feel right eating them. Omnivores I'm on the brink with so I understand people who don't eat pigs. Pigs are really intelligent as well, no less so that horses anyway.
> However humane treatment of animals in slaughter houses is very important to me. I'd say it should be more important to people who eat meat than the vegitarians since they don't have to worry about their money going to bad people. I.e I'd like my money to go to people who treat their animals well since I'm not going to stop eating meat.


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## NicoleS11

I have a question for "futurevetgirl"....this may come across as rude(sorry in advance)...im assuming that you are going to become a vet one day(good for you) are you going to suggest people send there horses to be slaughtered if they are sick or are you going to put them to sleep? In my eyes if i was becoming a vet i would never have the heart to say that i agree with horse slaughter. When you become a vet your duties are to save peoples pets and family( to some people)...i just dont understand how you could agree with slaughter if this is what you want to do for a career! I am a volunteer for a horse resuce and i know for a FACT that horses do remember the horrible things that they see at slaughter houses. We have rescued horses that came straight from the slaughters...these horses are very scared! there eyes are big....very fearfull animals. Im sure they arent scared just becuase there at a new place or becuase of the new horses...but because they know they they just survived a near death experience. Just reading your first part of this thread made me cry....and i consider myself a very tough person becuase of the cruilty to horses i have seen. I cant even beleive that you are more worried about the people loosing a finger then the horses who like in the video are not killed right away....thats all im gonna say...


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## Kincsem

Some veterinarians work in slaughterhousesses. They are supposed to see to it that things are humane and stop the line if an animal is alive and hollering before they are skinned or dismembered. Even if someones "practice" is in the slaughterhouse it is their job to see to it that animals do not suffer. Too many times they have not done their job. In one or more countries someone was required to work in the slaughterhouse before becoming licensed to practice. One of those vets said that working in the slaughterhouse was the worst time of his entire life and turned him into a vegetarian. He said he had trouble sleeping and it gave him nightmares. Those that are cold and indifferent to the suffering of others should not be vets or doctors or nurses. Medical professionals should be caring individuals who want to help others and prevent or end suffering.


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## DarkChylde

Zab- Well, I for one would want my old companion and partner to get the big 'pink' shot, and I know of people who would take the meat for dogmeat, but I bury mine (tho incineration is also an option.)

But that is just me. I wouldn't want any of my animals subject to the horrors of slaughter, transportation issues aside.


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## DarkChylde

Kincsem said:


> Some veterinarians work in slaughterhousesses. They are supposed to see to it that things are humane and stop the line if an animal is alive and hollering before they are skinned or dismembered. Even if someones "practice" is in the slaughterhouse it is their job to see to it that animals do not suffer. Too many times they have not done their job. In one or more countries someone was required to work in the slaughterhouse before becoming licensed to practice. One of those vets said that working in the slaughterhouse was the worst time of his entire life and turned him into a vegetarian. He said he had trouble sleeping and it gave him nightmares. Those that are cold and indifferent to the suffering of others should not be vets or doctors or nurses. Medical professionals should be caring individuals who want to help others and prevent or end suffering.


I have been to slaughterhaouses, I never saw a vet there. I can ask the guy I knew that worked there if they ever had one.

And the animals that still have a heart beating are alive, but paralyzed, and they can't scream or kick or anything, they are paralyzed. But the heart still beats, one way you can tell is the pulsing way the blood leaves the body, in time with the heartbeat. THe horses are merely paralyzed, and they are hung over the bleed tank alive, but can't move. I do think that some are killed by the bolt, but far more are merely paralyzed.


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## NicoleS11

the thing that actually bothers me the most out of slaughter houses...are that some horses die from stress at these places before they even get slaughtered...talk about "humain"...im not sure the exact % of this...but if horses are dieing from being stressed out about the seroundings there in....im guessing slaughter houses are not being to nice about what they do "buisness"...


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> Zab- Well, I for one would want my old companion and partner to get the big 'pink' shot, and I know of people who would take the meat for dogmeat, but I bury mine (tho incineration is also an option.)
> 
> But that is just me. I wouldn't want any of my animals subject to the horrors of slaughter, transportation issues aside.


I've seen horses getting that ''pink shot'' when something goes wrong - it's not a pretty sight, it was not just muscle spasms. Heard of one horse that seemed to die, but then was found dragging itself from the blanket they'd put over it and move 15metres before they found it.
Not that a bult between their eyes is pretty, but at least they're dead/braindead before they feel anything. And with tame horses, it's rather safe too and normally done at home, so no stress that way.
Doesn't seem like other horses at the barn care too much about the blood scent either, and a few people has noted that they seem to call less for their friend if they get to say goodbye to the body.
Things can go wrong no matter what method you use but they're all equally safe nowadays. Most horses here has had medication so they can't be eaten anyway but I'd still rather avoid the pink shot, since I'd have nightmares for weeks thinking ''what if..'' - but that's just me.

I can't understand people that thinks it's bad/immoral to eat horses after they're dead when most people know that buried animals gets eaten by worms. But I have some understanding for not wanting your own horses to be eaten, I just don't find it logical and I don't find the eating fact anything that should influense against slaughter.

Maybe our slaughter houses are different than yours, because the animals are kept away from other ''finished'' animals and blood; the floors where they're killed are washed off etc. I know owners that came along inside with their horse for the last trip, and they were surprised, in a good way. Everything handeled calmly and professional. Sure some blood smell is probably still there, but it's not the horror-room most people imagine it to be and probably a lot less stressing than they think.


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## HorseGirlBre

I do support horse slaughter only for the NEEDED reasons. And no... I do not plan to eat my horse Rikki! The reasons why I support horse slaughter, is that some places do not have enough cattle/livestock, EXCEPT way too many horses. They are sending those horses to slaughter are also keeping the allready enough equine population count down, and keeping less horses FROM starving. Also, some people can't afford to take care of their horses anymore, or if they are sick/have gotten hurt and it cannot be fixed, but still have good enough meat, they can be used, instead of being put to waste. Please no bashing of Bre *puts on Anti-Bash helmet*


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## Flexion

HorseGirlBre said:


> I do support horse slaughter only for the NEEDED reasons. And no... I do not plan to eat my horse Rikki! The reasons why I support horse slaughter, is that some places do not have enough cattle/livestock, EXCEPT way too many horses. They are sending those horses to slaughter are also keeping the allready enough equine population count down, and keeping less horses FROM starving. Also, some people can't afford to take care of their horses anymore, or if they are sick/have gotten hurt and it cannot be fixed, but still have good enough meat, they can be used, instead of being put to waste. Please no bashing of Bre *puts on Anti-Bash helmet*


I agree Brehface =P


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## Zab

HorseGirlBre said:


> I do support horse slaughter only for the NEEDED reasons. And no... I do not plan to eat my horse Rikki! The reasons why I support horse slaughter, is that some places do not have enough cattle/livestock, EXCEPT way too many horses. They are sending those horses to slaughter are also keeping the allready enough equine population count down, and keeping less horses FROM starving. Also, some people can't afford to take care of their horses anymore, or if they are sick/have gotten hurt and it cannot be fixed, but still have good enough meat, they can be used, instead of being put to waste. Please no bashing of Bre *puts on Anti-Bash helmet*


Yeah well any other option would be breeding horses for slaughter..>_>
I'm against breeding any animal just to kill it..


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## Kincsem

Swedish slaughterhouses may not be as inhumane as those in some other places. Anyone who can watch the videos of horses being slaughtered in the US,Canada or Mexico and still be in favor of it is far different from me. I find it totally incomprehensible that anyone could ever favor the cruelty that horses are subjected to. Other animals have been slaughtered and transported inhumanely also which is why I became a vegetarian. I cannot and will not support cruelty. When and if slaughter becomes as humane as euthanasia done properly maybe I will consider buying meat and then only if the animals are raised and transported humanely.. I am also against the human slaughter known as war. They bury the body parts of those who have been blown to bits and waste all that meat. It could be used to feed other people or animals. There are many people starving on the earth. Blowing them up would prevent starvation. But of course that is not humane especially since some do not die right away and suffer a lot first just like other animals do.


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## Zab

I also firmly believe that slaughterhouses has worse reputation than they deserve.. animal right organisations tend to distort facts and often just straight out lie.
There was this vid of horribly suffering slaughter horses that was used against horse slaughter here - only thing is, and they didn't tell us this, those horses were filmed in india or something and had nothig to do with us. 
They also tend to find the worst possible place there are, and then show it of as if that's the normal. 
It'sd very sad becuse they fight for a good cause, but they can't win it by trying to fool people.

Not saying your slaughter houses are as ours, because I have no idea, but I think people should be careful to oppose something they havn't seen for themselves.


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## HorseGirlBre

I do wish it was more humane though. I mean, I don't LOVE horse slaughter, and I don't walk around with a T-Shirt that says "SUPPORT HORSE SLAUGHTER!" or "KILL THE HORSES!". But I don't hate it eather.


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> I've seen horses getting that ''pink shot'' when something goes wrong - it's not a pretty sight, it was not just muscle spasms. Heard of one horse that seemed to die, but then was found dragging itself from the blanket they'd put over it and move 15metres before they found it.
> Not that a bult between their eyes is pretty, but at least they're dead/braindead before they feel anything. And with tame horses, it's rather safe too and normally done at home, so no stress that way.
> Doesn't seem like other horses at the barn care too much about the blood scent either, and a few people has noted that they seem to call less for their friend if they get to say goodbye to the body.
> Things can go wrong no matter what method you use but they're all equally safe nowadays. Most horses here has had medication so they can't be eaten anyway but I'd still rather avoid the pink shot, since I'd have nightmares for weeks thinking ''what if..'' - but that's just me.
> 
> I can't understand people that thinks it's bad/immoral to eat horses after they're dead when most people know that buried animals gets eaten by worms. But I have some understanding for not wanting your own horses to be eaten, I just don't find it logical and I don't find the eating fact anything that should influense against slaughter.
> 
> Maybe our slaughter houses are different than yours, because the animals are kept away from other ''finished'' animals and blood; the floors where they're killed are washed off etc. I know owners that came along inside with their horse for the last trip, and they were surprised, in a good way. Everything handeled calmly and professional. Sure some blood smell is probably still there, but it's not the horror-room most people imagine it to be and probably a lot less stressing than they think.


Here is a link to a video on what went on in our slaughterhouses. Click on 'Inside the Slaughterhouse' to the link to see the video. This was one of the big, main slaughterhouses. 

http://www.manesandtailsorganization.org/media.html

I am personally a vegan, all meat-eating is disgusting to me, altho I watch my own family eat meat all the time (not horses, of course). But that personal tidbit aside, it is the assembly-line slaughter of horses I fight against, for the main reason that while Americans have no interest in eating the horses, we are the ones supplying the countries that do with thier meat. It is because people in countries other than ours want to eat horses is why they are being overbred and the problem of what to do with the 'unwanteds' exists in the first place. It is the BUSINESS of horse meat for human consumption and slaughtering horses FOR human consumption I want to stop, since we as americans don't eat them we should NOT be supplying the rest of the world with horsemeat, especially when we owe horses for ALL of the luxuries provided by our society. We would not have advanced as a society if it had not been for 2 things- horses and guns. Back in the day, having a calvary made the difference between wether you lost or won a war, and where our culture won we can thank the horses. Not to mention that they mite be classified as 'livestock,' but they are NOT consumed (not in this country at least)by Americans, they are really pet animals. And most people, even those that support slaughter, mite view it differently when it is their best four-legged friend up for the chop. People (and not our countrymen) have made an obscene amount of money (they don't even pay taxes- oh yeah, they DID pay $12 for a YEAR before they were closed down, my school tax is more than that!) off the horror and carnage of horses, and I say it is time it stopped. I say we stop arguing about slaughter, which while the most horrific aspect of it, it is still not the real issue. OVER-BREEDING is the issue, and most seem happy enought to let slaughter handle the problem for us. In fact, most say think that slaughter is the ONLY way to handle it, but it is not. Other ways just won't be as profitible, and in the long run, that is what the discussion REALLY boils down too. We have horses on the one hand, and the 'industry' on the other. The 'industy' enjoyes high prices on horse stuff, partially CUZ of the money granted to the owners at the horses last moments. It is like if you ain't making HUGE bucks off your 'investment' then something must be wrong with you. Well, I for one didn't get into horses to get rich, I couldn't care less about the 'industry', cuz I know it is the main reason most people support slaughter. I am not concerne s with making money off my horses death, I would personally rather have my hubby put a horse down with a bullet or pay for the big pink shot rather than expose my horse to the horrors of slaughter, I am not interested with making money off my horse, the very idea would be like hmmm, I got a family member who is bad off, can I still get some money outta this? My horses are like my family, and I know I am not alone in that thinking. I am concerned with making a better future for ALL american horses. I want slaughter to stop, the borders to be closed, and then us humans, who have mismanged the problem to where it is now will HAVE to deal with the consequences of our mismanagement (something we are loath to do). When you can't sell your horse to the meat men, and can't get the fast $300 or so bucks, (and neither can a horsethief, consequently) and when the prices of horses goes down (which it undoubtably will) then perhaps then and only then we can weed out the disreputables from our ranks, we can start getting rid of those who ARE only into horses cuz of the 'big money' and the ones who are into horses are into it for love of the species and love alone. THAT would solve almost ALL the problems facing the horse world now. At least in this country, it would. ANd horses wouldn't be bred for food anymore, breeders would know they can't get money for their culls from the slaughterhouses anyway, and when they ain't making money off the culls they will prolly stop breeding them (they have been overbreeding as it is profitable for them to do so, thanks to slaughter.)

So it isn't just about me being hoity-toitey about eating meat, it is about a corrupt industry that has made it's millions off the abuse and mistreatment and down right horror and carnage of an animal we love and owe so much too.


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> I also firmly believe that slaughterhouses has worse reputation than they deserve.. animal right organisations tend to distort facts and often just straight out lie.
> There was this vid of horribly suffering slaughter horses that was used against horse slaughter here - only thing is, and they didn't tell us this, those horses were filmed in india or something and had nothig to do with us.
> They also tend to find the worst possible place there are, and then show it of as if that's the normal.
> It'sd very sad becuse they fight for a good cause, but they can't win it by trying to fool people.
> 
> Not saying your slaughter houses are as ours, because I have no idea, but I think people should be careful to oppose something they havn't seen for themselves.


 
WHile I ain't indulging in the typical 'instead-of-focusing-on-slaghter-lets-all-bash-animal-rights-activists' discussion (mostly cuz I would LIKE to stay on topic) I will tell you this.

About 23 years ago, a friend of mine, that worked in the slaughterhouse, covertly took video of what went on. I had visted the slaughterhouse, but it wasn't as bad to me (they are different when they have vistors, believe me). My friend made a video, he turned it into the humane society. (I am not still friends with him, unfortunately. I lost contact with him when my cousin, who was dating him, broke up with him.) When it came out that someone had taken the video, it eventually got back to him. He not only lost his job (of course, always happens to whistleblowers) but he suffered death threats, was humilated publically in the papers and everywhere else, and eventually had to move. He didn't do himself the first bit of good making that video, but he sure helped the horses, as it was one of the first videos out. So I PERSONALLY known someone who had made just a video, and he has gotten only grief from it.


Sometimes in the fervor to point fingers at the activists (who are NOT the overbreeders that are createing the situation in the first place, and many are just trying to look out for animals who have no voice or control over what is done with them) it mite help to know that there is a personal side to it, a REAL side, of a person bothered by something terrible and wanting to help or do SOMETHING other than turn a blind eye and try and forget what you know so you don't rock the boat and maybe offend someone or **** someone off.


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> Yeah well any other option would be breeding horses for slaughter..>_>
> I'm against breeding any animal just to kill it..


But that is WHY horses are overbred in this country, they are actually being BRED for slaughter and human consumption. ANd in this country they bred all kinds of animals just to kill to eat. Cows, chickens, pigs, HORSES, ect.


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## county

I don't see where any species is slaughtered because theres to many if that were true then theres been to many of everything since the dawn of time. Slaughter exists for two reasons.
1: Demand for the meat.
2: Profit

Take away either one and the slaughter of that species dies.


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## DarkChylde

Wow, that is very true. Simple, to the point. Awesome.


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## Kentucky

True, that is true. But, it can also have other side effects. Animals not being bred period, when primary persume is destroyed their numbers fall. Look at the draft breeds in the 1930's to the 1950's, their numbers fell to almost excintion level. Or, look st the horse numbers in this country today. People are turning loose horses in Eastern Kentucky because they have no other choice to do with them. There was no problem numberwise with Mustang numbers until 1970 when the goverament took over. 
If cattle were not bred for slaughter, they would not be bred, end of story.


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## county

I'd have to say people are turning horses loose because they aren't taking responsabilty for them not because theres no other choice. If nothing else shoot them but don't shove them onto someone else.


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> But that is WHY horses are overbred in this country, they are actually being BRED for slaughter and human consumption. ANd in this country they bred all kinds of animals just to kill to eat. Cows, chickens, pigs, HORSES, ect.


I know cows and pigs are bred to slaughter and I don't agree with that. 
But with cows; if they have good life and are bred for milk, I can eat them.
Horses are bred for sports and should be well take care of, but when they're old or unwanted it'd better to kill them than letting them starve to death, and if they're getting killed anyway, we can just as well eat them.

If I take of my pink clouded glasses and return to real life I know this is not how it is, but it shouldn't be impossible to get there. However it is pretty impossible to end slaughtering at all, and to keep horses from over population without killing them, as long as we still ride.


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## county

DarkChylde what makes you think horses are bred for slaughter? The top price for horse meat is in the mid.30's per lb and thats at the slaughter house. Min weight now they pay for is 900 lbs. How much would you say it costs to get a foal to 900 lbs? And how much profit would you say is made on even a horse that brings $400 delevered?


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## Kincsem

Gelding and keeping stallions from mares is all that is necessary to keep the population from getting too large. Some people love and keep their old horses. I have a mare who is 33 years old. Letting any animal starve to death is a crime and the guilty person is supposed to be arrested and tossed in jail. People have a legal responsibility to feed any animal they own and if they do not they are supposed to be charged with a crime. If they can no longer care for an animal then they must give it up or euthanize it before it starves to death or dies of thirst. Abandoning animals is also a crime that people can be arrested for. There are people raising animals for show and pets that are considered livestock.


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## county

Right on the money Kincsem!!!!


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> I know cows and pigs are bred to slaughter and I don't agree with that.
> But with cows; if they have good life and are bred for milk, I can eat them.
> Horses are bred for sports and should be well take care of, but when they're old or unwanted it'd better to kill them than letting them starve to death, and if they're getting killed anyway, we can just as well eat them.
> 
> If I take of my pink clouded glasses and return to real life I know this is not how it is, but it shouldn't be impossible to get there. However it is pretty impossible to end slaughtering at all, and to keep horses from over population without killing them, as long as we still ride.


Well, the starving ones won't find any relief with slaughter, even they (the slaughterhouses) have shown that only 12% of their victims-er, subjects were anywhere near starving and skinny. Meat men are in it for the money, not the noble pursuit of ending suffering. They get far more from a healthy, young horse than some skinny ol' thing, they are paid by weight, and skinny horses mean less money. I have been to the slaughterhouses, there wasn't a skinny or malnourished looking horse in sight. The 'poor starving things dieing in dirt lots' have the entire slaughter industry hiding behind them, but they aren't the saviors they make themselves out to be. Wanna see some pics of the horses lined up for slaughter, and transport for slaughter? You won't see a skinny one in the bunch. They will be left to die by the industry, cuz they won't bring enough money to warrent paying for the transport.

As far as ending world wide slaughter, I coudn't hope to do that, but my focus is on ending it in my own country, and closing the borders so they cannot be shipped to Mexico and Canada. (no offense). Only interested in cleaning my own house.


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## DarkChylde

county said:


> DarkChylde what makes you think horses are bred for slaughter? The top price for horse meat is in the mid.30's per lb and thats at the slaughter house. Min weight now they pay for is 900 lbs. How much would you say it costs to get a foal to 900 lbs? And how much profit would you say is made on even a horse that brings $400 delevered?


Breeders overbreed all the time, they don't hafta feed or vaccinate, they just leave them in huge pastures and catch them and ship them off to slaughter, I personally know (tho not a friend of mine) a person who does just that. He pays nothing for mare care, doesn't worm of vaccinate, doesn't buy hay, but he is blessed with a very large property so they aren't skinny, but healthy, fine horses that didn't need to be shipped off to slaughter. So when he gets his $300 or $400, it is all profit for him. 

But please keep showing the min weight they will accept is 900 lbs, so that people can see they ain't into it to save the skinny, starving ones. (I already knew that).


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## DarkChylde

Kentucky said:


> True, that is true. But, it can also have other side effects. Animals not being bred period, when primary persume is destroyed their numbers fall. Look at the draft breeds in the 1930's to the 1950's, their numbers fell to almost excintion level. Or, look st the horse numbers in this country today. People are turning loose horses in Eastern Kentucky because they have no other choice to do with them. There was no problem numberwise with Mustang numbers until 1970 when the goverament took over.
> If cattle were not bred for slaughter, they would not be bred, end of story.


I am not sure that is kinder than a slaughterhouse, but if I were a horse I would rather be turned loose than taken to one of THOSE places.... But we can't ask them, can we? But that is what I would prefer be my fate. I am kinda independant, tho.:lol:


And I think some cows would be bred for milk. I am a vegan, I don't wanna see anything bred for slaughter and used like that, but I focus on horses.


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## DarkChylde

Kincsem said:


> Gelding and keeping stallions from mares is all that is necessary to keep the population from getting too large. Some people love and keep their old horses. I have a mare who is 33 years old. Letting any animal starve to death is a crime and the guilty person is supposed to be arrested and tossed in jail. People have a legal responsibility to feed any animal they own and if they do not they are supposed to be charged with a crime. If they can no longer care for an animal then they must give it up or euthanize it before it starves to death or dies of thirst. Abandoning animals is also a crime that people can be arrested for. There are people raising animals for show and pets that are considered livestock.


Agreed, if people would be like that it would mean some real changes in the 'industry' has taken place. We can always hope....


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## county

DarkChylde where is this breeder that never has any costs to raise livestock? Which slaughter plant where you in and when? I totally agree most horses slaughtered are young fat ones. The people who buy and eat horse meat are no differant then those who eat any other species. No one wants meat from a skinny crippled sick animal they want it from young healthy fat ones.


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## DarkChylde

The breeder is here in Virginia, up in the mountains. No, except for maybe the taxes and his initial cost in setup, he doesn't invest in each horse. Doesn't even do the feet. Now, on the rare occasion that someone is interested in buying a horse from him, he invests a _little_, (cuz he CLAIMS all his horses are up to date on shots and other hogwash, but he is a liar and a cheat) but even then it isn't much, and it is ONLY if the horse is going to someone. Then he half-way halter breaks it, gives it vaccs that he DOESN"T booster so they aren't any good, and has a coggins drawn. But I know how he really operates (FRIENDS with his sister, but I can't stand him, I wish he could be shut down.)

I was at the Dallas Crown plant in the late 80s.


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## county

Doesn't it ever snow there? What type grass does he raise that it never has to go dormant?


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## county

DarkChylde was it you I noticed belongs to the Manes and Tails group? Reason I ask a freind in N.J. does but never met anyone else in it.


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> Well, the starving ones won't find any relief with slaughter, even they (the slaughterhouses) have shown that only 12% of their victims-er, subjects were anywhere near starving and skinny. Meat men are in it for the money, not the noble pursuit of ending suffering. They get far more from a healthy, young horse than some skinny ol' thing, they are paid by weight, and skinny horses mean less money. I have been to the slaughterhouses, there wasn't a skinny or malnourished looking horse in sight. The 'poor starving things dieing in dirt lots' have the entire slaughter industry hiding behind them, but they aren't the saviors they make themselves out to be. Wanna see some pics of the horses lined up for slaughter, and transport for slaughter? You won't see a skinny one in the bunch. They will be left to die by the industry, cuz they won't bring enough money to warrent paying for the transport.
> 
> As far as ending world wide slaughter, I coudn't hope to do that, but my focus is on ending it in my own country, and closing the borders so they cannot be shipped to Mexico and Canada. (no offense). Only interested in cleaning my own house.


What I mean is - kill them BEFORE they starve.

But of course, I only know how it is here.


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## DarkChylde

county said:


> Doesn't it ever snow there? What type grass does he raise that it never has to go dormant?


Yes it does. He doesn't worry about them in the winter much, thick winter coats hide ribs. I know he never buys any grain, and I have never SEEN a hay bale on his place, but I honestly don't know if he buys it or not. I don't know what kind of grass he has, but he has alot of land. (He is actually loaded, but he is a real tightwad when it comes to horses.)

He still doesn't invest IN THE HORSES. He doesn't pay anything to let them roam on his land, and he doesn't invest in mare care, he only spends money on them if he is getting his $3000 outta them, and then he only invests in ONE round of shots and a coggins, and spends a few days so they will wear a halter.

This is only one guy I know. I have heard of others, on other forums, so this problem DOES exist, and prolly more than I know about......


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## DarkChylde

county said:


> DarkChylde was it you I noticed belongs to the Manes and Tails group? Reason I ask a freind in N.J. does but never met anyone else in it.


I used to be real heavy into it, but I work more with local rescues now. USERL is my biggie, they are outta Richmond. When I get rid of the barbed wire on the backside of my property, I plan to start fostering for them. I have rescued alot of horses (4 this past year) on my own, tho one was SO bad I HAD to turn her over to USERL (and it brings tears to my eyes to see her fat and shiny and with her new owner.)

I am with alot of Wild Horse Preservation things now, moreso than the Manes and Tails.

Good group tho.


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> What I mean is - kill them BEFORE they starve.
> 
> But of course, I only know how it is here.


Well, as has been pointed out they aren't in the noble pursuit of giving a 'quick death' to the 'skinny, starving horses in dry lots,' they only want fat horses able to stand the trip.

And their method of killing is inhumane as it can be, and I see horses that don't have thier heads secured, and they are shooting about blind at them, takes many times, and they are many times only paralyzed (not dead, heart is still beating) as they are hung over the bleed tank. So in my opinion how they are killed is as cruel and horrible as them standing their starving (and the starving ones are NOT helped by slaughter anyhow, tho the industry and everyone that supports slaughter tends to hide behind them.)

I hope it is a different story in other countries, tho I know the horror is even worse in Mexico, and just as bad in Canada. But I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I HAVE seen it with my own eyes in this country.


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## county

There killed with a captive bolt per law and the heart has to be bleeding when their bled out per law. No beating heart the meat ends up with alot of blood in it. Are they killed with the first shot with the captive bolt? Not 100% of the time same as all species of livestock.


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## DarkChylde

NO ONE checks to see if the heart has stopped beating, not even in front of visitors. Whatever the law may be, it is not followed. I have been there, I have seen it. I have also seen the blood come out gush, gush, gush, gush, -just like a heartbeat, WHY? Cuz the heart is still beating when they are bled.

And when they don't secure the head of the horse, it becomes a crap shoot, and the horse is the one that suffers. Even when I was there I didn't see a clean shot, not ONCE.


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## county

Well I've worked on kill floors in slaughter plants most my life off and on and yep blood gushes out thats a good thing not bad. The plant here in town kills 850 to 1000 head of cattle a day and ya theres some misses with the captive bolt. Horses have more of them pigs less.


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## DarkChylde

I was pointing out the blood PUMPS out, in beat with the still-beating-heart. Meaning, the horse is ALIVE when bled.

I don't approve of other animals being slaughtered, but this focus is on horses, not cattle or pigs, this is a horse forum, and I am focussing on horses. Most americans don't want horses slaughtered in this country, they ain't gonna eat them.

If other countries want to eat THEIR OWN horses, fine. I am focused on my own country to stop suppling them OUR BELOVED PETS to eat.


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## county

Just because the heart pumps does not mean the animal is alive it means one of many organs still functions. And like I said the heart has to pump to get the blood out better people don't care for meat wih lots of blood running out of it.

If most americans don't want to eat horse by all means they should not eat it. I've eaten it 3 times this year its red meat same as other species I like beef better but horse IMO sure beats goat.
I've never known anyone that sold a beloved pet for slaughter regardless of species. You want to stop horse slaughter, I don't I have no problem with what you want to do yet you seem to have one with what I do.


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## Kincsem

It would be more humane if they immobilized them with a heavy duty head gate and used a .380 handgun with some kind of silencer and then used a guillotine to remove their heads so that they would not be alive for certain. They would bleed out just as good or better since arteries and veins would both be severed and gravity would help once they were hoisted. They would not need "stickers" which according to what I read was the job that had the most injuries. Deer,rabbits,turkeys,etc that hunters kill are not usually bled out or butchered immediately after they are killed and the meat is eaten by people. I had one bull kill another bull and I ate some of the meat. It was not bled out at all and there did not seem to be any difference in the meat than what comes from the supermarket on the parts that were a normal red color. There were dark parts caused by bruising from the attack by the other bull. The bruised dark meat was bad tasting. There is no need for the animal to be alive and the heart pumping blood out. It is cruel to be dismembering and skinning live animals some of which have been awake and hollering. Humane slaughter has been law since 1959 and mandates an animal be rendered unconscious with one blow. It has not been enforced and I became a vegetarian because of the cruelty some of which occurs before animals go to slaughter(mostly with pigs). Animals should also not be forced to witness what happens to other animals ahead of them and it is also illegal to beat them to make them go forward and all other cruelty is also illegal.


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## county

I agree any and all cruelty is illegal and should be enforced. I don't agrrew banning slaughter is the way to do that. If I did I'd have to want virtually everything banned that anyone ever does illegal.


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## DarkChylde

Those are good ideas, Kincsem. While I don't think assembly line slaughter CAN be made inhumane, you shore got some good ideas. I also think that before they 'shoot', the horse's head should be secured to better facilitate a clean kill. But unfortunately most aren't hollering, they have been rendered paralyzed by the bolt, but not dead. And they don't check for a heart beat, or lack thereof, before they bleed and skin, tho once the blood is out they cannot live then. 
(Tho I did drop outta med school, I remember that much.)


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## Kincsem

The headgates I have seen are made for cattle but they could be made for horses or pigs or sheep and goats. The headgate does not allow much movement of the animals head. It grabs the animal at the top of the neck without injury. They have usually been used to keep an animal still for vaccinations,ear tagging,etc and are sometimes used with a "squeeze chute" which keeps an animal from moving the rest of their body very much. The guillotine could be placed immediately behind the headgate. There was a video of cattle slaughtering where they had not been rendered unconscious and not stuck properly because they were conscious and moving around and went doown the line with people cutting off the bottom of their legs and skinning them while they hollered in pain. Some people testified to congress about what was going on and changes were supposed to be made so that there would not be any suffering. I have read about cruelty at other places happening since then and to other animals like pigs and horses also.


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## county

Headgates for horses have been tryed but don't work well as the horse will sometimes struggle and break its neck. I'd like to see them use a adjustable kill box that can be moved in from the side to squeeze the horse into place but allow enough movement of its head it could still go up and down a few inches.

Any form of a kill method other then a captive bolt has been outlawed in commercial plants by OSHA. I prefer to use a .22 cailber rifle.


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## Kincsem

Captive bolt guns do not always work right which was why animals wound up being dismembered while still alive. If they have such a rule it should be changed. A .380 is small and lightweight and has as much stopping power as a .38 at close range. A .22 is more likely to leave an animal alive. With a silencer there would not be a noise problem. It would be easier on workers to use the handgun with its light weight the arm would not get tired so easily and one could get closer with it. A horsewould not have much chance to struggle or break its neck if it was immediately shot after the head gate closed on its neck. A head gate could be hydraulically raised or lowered according to the height of the horse. A hydraulic version of a squeeze chute could be made that would not apply too much pressure.


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## county

Firearms are strictly prohibited for use in commercial settings for human safety reason. I've shot literally 1000's of animals with a .22 and its more then enough to kill them. Their dead before they hit the ground, just killed two butcher cows this past Tue with one.


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## Kincsem

I will continue to oppose slaughter as long as they use the captive bolt gun (which a slaughterhouse worker who used one said did not always work right and sometimes left an animal in pain and moving around and when the animal moved on the sticker because the animal was conscious and moving did not cut it right and then it went down the line dying piece by piece and in agony and it happened many times to many animals) but it would still be more humane with a guillotine since the suffering would be for a much shorter time. If it is not safe for people to use guns maybe they should just outlaw them everywhere for everybody and then we will all be safer and so will the other animals. Then everybody can stop hunting and we can all become vegetarians.


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> Well, as has been pointed out they aren't in the noble pursuit of giving a 'quick death' to the 'skinny, starving horses in dry lots,' they only want fat horses able to stand the trip.
> 
> And their method of killing is inhumane as it can be, and I see horses that don't have thier heads secured, and they are shooting about blind at them, takes many times, and they are many times only paralyzed (not dead, heart is still beating) as they are hung over the bleed tank. So in my opinion how they are killed is as cruel and horrible as them standing their starving (and the starving ones are NOT helped by slaughter anyhow, tho the industry and everyone that supports slaughter tends to hide behind them.)
> 
> I hope it is a different story in other countries, tho I know the horror is even worse in Mexico, and just as bad in Canada. But I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I HAVE seen it with my own eyes in this country.


I don't think we're talking about the same thing here..
I'm talking for horse slaughter, in your/mine home country instead of keeping the horses alive or avoid killing them at all cost, since it's more respectful to kil them than waiting for them to starve to death...


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## Kincsem

Where I live a .22 is legal only for small game because it is likely to leave a large animal alive. I have read about people being shot repeatedly with a .22 and surviving. At close enough range and hitting the right spot it might be effective but if the animal has a hard enough or thick enough skull the animal might not die right away or not at all.


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## county

Hunting for spoprt and killing livestock in a slaughter plant is far far different I know of no state that allows large game hunting with a .22. And yes sometimes the captive bolt does not work right same as a gun.

Outlaw guns and eating meat? Ya thats going to happen. If they were to outlaw eating vegatables would you?


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## LadyDreamer

Braindead = Dead


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> I don't think we're talking about the same thing here..
> I'm talking for horse slaughter, in your/mine home country instead of keeping the horses alive or avoid killing them at all cost, since it's more respectful to kil them than waiting for them to starve to death...


 

But what I _am_ saying is in MY country (I am afraid I must beg ignorance of the slaughter techniques in your country, plus your country prolly doesn't slaughter the number of horses our country did) is that slaughter DOESN"T help those who are 'starving to death.' We had it pointed out earlier that they won't take a horse under 900 lbs, they are not GONNA help the ones that are starving, they do not go to slaughter. Slaughter is one of the main contributors to overpopulation here, it has done nothing but give financial incentive for those TO overbreed. (Thus creating more 'unwanteds' who may end up starving, and who the meat men WON'T take becuase they won't make enough money and the horse may very well not survive the trip.) And I have never said to 'avoid killing them at all cost.' But a healthy, young animal (again, THESE are the ones being slaughtered, NOT the skinny, starving neglected ones) does NOT need to be killed just cuz it is there, and 'unwanted.'


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## DarkChylde

county said:


> Outlaw guns and eating meat? Ya thats going to happen. If they were to outlaw eating vegatables would you?


They wouldn't have any incentive to outlaw meat (altho it WOULD solve most all the health problems we americans seem to be plaqued with , obesity, high bllod pressure and cholestorol, heart disease, diabeties, ect) and I hope they never outlaw guns, even if that mean DOES any ol' moron out there (or screwed up sick puppy) can have one and come after me with it...... 

But them terrible, terrible veggies need to be kept in line, ya'll.....:lol:


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> But what I _am_ saying is in MY country (I am afraid I must beg ignorance of the slaughter techniques in your country, plus your country prolly doesn't slaughter the number of horses our country did) is that slaughter DOESN"T help those who are 'starving to death.' We had it pointed out earlier that they won't take a horse under 900 lbs, they are not GONNA help the ones that are starving, they do not go to slaughter. Slaughter is one of the main contributors to overpopulation here, it has done nothing but give financial incentive for those TO overbreed. (Thus creating more 'unwanteds' who may end up starving, and who the meat men WON'T take becuase they won't make enough money and the horse may very well not survive the trip.) And I have never said to 'avoid killing them at all cost.' But a healthy, young animal (again, THESE are the ones being slaughtered, NOT the skinny, starving neglected ones) does NOT need to be killed just cuz it is there, and 'unwanted.'


But I'm talking about why it should be preferred to slaughter the horse than to keep it alive at all cost.. If you send a horse to slaughter BEFORE it starves, it does weigh 900. If you refuse to kill it untill it's too weak to stand up, it won't.
The slaughterhouses might not help the now starving horses, but how many more horses wouldn't be starving if they hadn't been killed? Because people don't slaughter wanted and loved horses, they generally slaughter horses that otherwise would have a hard time finding a good home and eventually end up in a poor shape.

That there are people reeding horses and other animals just to kill them of course ads to the nmber of unwanted hrses that'll be neglected if they're not slaughtered, but it's not a good reason to stop the slaughter houses since they'd still be useful. It's much better to stop the people who breeds horses and animals just to kill them, make that illegal instead.
And then you can and should always work to get the slaughter better for the animals. But a dead horse doesn't suffer, a neglected one does.

Even if the horse is young, if it's unwanted and you can't find a good home for it, it will be neglected and suffer. Then slaughter is better.

Do you see what I'm saying now?  I'm not talking about the now neglected horses, but those that will be.
So what I mean is; make the slaughter better, and stop breeding animals to kill them. 
Slaughter animals that's had a good and rich life instead.. but that would also mean to slaughter riding horses and eat them rather than giving them to the worms.


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## DarkChylde

Yes, I see what you are saying (have all along) but what I am tryin gto show is that as long as slaughter exists (and that includes the ones in this country going over the border) it provides an incentive to overbreed, and as long as we overbreed there will be too many horses and there will be the 'unwanteds' left to starve or whatever. And I haven't promoted 'worms eating them'(tho that would be better than serving a corrupt industry that makes a huge profit off the carnage of horses) but rather the animal is still used, to feed the hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats in our country, we had a rash of deaths from poisoned dog and cat food recently from food done in China, tho it was thru amercian owned companies like Alpo and Purina. But the meat being inspected and approved for HUMAN consumption is the problem, THAT brings the big bucks, and THAT is what drives the incentive to overbreed in the first place.

IF slaughter didn't provide the incentive to overbreed in the first place, then we wouldn't hafta worry about all the horses being neglected, there would not be so many unwanteds.

And those who leave a horse to neglect will do so whether slaughter is outlawed or not, slaugher doesn't solve ANY problems, but it HAS created them.......


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## Zab

I'm not saying you have said anything 

But I don't think it's the slaughterhouses you should blame, but the people breeding too much just to kill.

There will always be more horses than horse people; ex racehorses, foals that isn't ''good enough'' and that won't be sold for the price wanted etc. Not only horses bred for slaughter.

We don't breed horses for slaughter here it doesn't give any profit, at all (as far as I know, never heard of it) but a whole lot of horses gets killed/slaughterd anyway = standardbreds bred for racing that wasn't fast enough. People don't like them as riding horses and if they're not slaughtered here they go to italy. Except a few that gets saved and another few that goes to people who can't afford a ''real'' horse and don't have the knowledge to properly educate an unbroken ex racer... which helps to their bad reputation.

But it's not the slaughter that causes the problem, it's the people who breed horses for profit; be it racing or attempts to get new dressage stars.
Slaughter is simply a good way of dealing with unwanted horses that's bred for a bad reason.

I guess you can see this country as an example; since slaughter doesn't give profit, it's pretty much as if it doesn't excist (lets say it's just an alternative to bring the vet out = pay instead of getting it done for free). If we couldn't kill the horses for free by slaughtering them, we'd have far more neglected horses than we do. It's too expencive for many to call the vet and get rid of the body. 
But nobody breeds horses to get them killed.
(and I think it's better to use the body than to burn or bury it but that's beside the point)


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## DarkChylde

Zab said:


> I'm not saying you have said anything


 Ummm, what does this mean?


> But I don't think it's the slaughterhouses you should blame, but the people breeding too much just to kill.
> 
> There will always be more horses than horse people; ex racehorses, foals that isn't ''good enough'' and that won't be sold for the price wanted etc. Not only horses bred for slaughter.
> 
> We don't breed horses for slaughter here it doesn't give any profit, at all (as far as I know, never heard of it) but a whole lot of horses gets killed/slaughterd anyway = standardbreds bred for racing that wasn't fast enough. People don't like them as riding horses and if they're not slaughtered here they go to italy. Except a few that gets saved and another few that goes to people who can't afford a ''real'' horse and don't have the knowledge to properly educate an unbroken ex racer... which helps to their bad reputation.
> 
> But it's not the slaughter that causes the problem, it's the people who breed horses for profit; be it racing or attempts to get new dressage stars.
> Slaughter is simply a good way of dealing with unwanted horses that's bred for a bad reason.
> 
> I guess you can see this country as an example; since slaughter doesn't give profit, it's pretty much as if it doesn't excist (lets say it's just an alternative to bring the vet out = pay instead of getting it done for free). If we couldn't kill the horses for free by slaughtering them, we'd have far more neglected horses than we do. It's too expencive for many to call the vet and get rid of the body.
> But nobody breeds horses to get them killed.
> (and I think it's better to use the body than to burn or bury it but that's beside the point)


I don't deny that the meat should be used, I don't really advocate cremation or burial over using the meat, but the method of slaughter is what needs to change. If you read my other post about the dog and cat food you will see what I am talking of, but even then the procedures need to change. Did you watch the video I posted the link to?

But in this country everyone just HAS to make that final dollar off thier horse.:-(

The bill doesn't outlaw slaughter, it is a bill for the Agricultural Budget not to pay inspectors to inspect the meat FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. THAT is where the greed comes in, it is BIG BUCKS and the horses don't enjoy a bit of it, only corrupt, greedy humans.

I guess you cannot see where slaughter PAYS to overbreed, and anyone who just mindlessly breeds with no concern, consquense, or responsiblity for those creatures they are creating IS breeding them for slaughter, whether or not it was thier original intention.

And, IF they couldn't get rid of their culls for quick cash, they wouldn't have the incentive to overbreed. 

People will do bad things, especially for money. I cannot regulate every person, nor do I want to be set up to judge each and every breeder. But elliminate the financial incentive, and you elliminate thier reason for overbreeding. Slaughter GIVES them financial incentive to overbreed, and they do it, cuz unfortunately to get rich no matter how is the 'American Way......


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## county

What bill are you talking about that doesn't pay for inspectors?


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## DarkChylde

The bill banning horse slaughter. It hasn't passed. HR 503/S 311

And it isn't to stop paying inspectors, it is not allow them to be paid to inspect horse meat for human consumption, or something along those lines.


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## county

Sorry but the bill that passed a few years ago to stop paying inspectors is old and no longer in use. The plants paid for the inspectors with their own money after it passed. The bill being tossed around now has nothing to do with inspectors. Its to ban hauling slaughter horses out of country.


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## DarkChylde

I am part of the grassroots effort to pass the bill.

Where do you get this info?


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## county

From my Congressmman, I'm part of the group trying to stop a ban


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## Kincsem

I am one of those who signed a petition to support a ban on sending horses to slaughter in other countries. The present head of the AQHA will hopefully be replaced. At least some Quarter Horse breeders care about the horses and not breeding injudiciously since 25,000 less QH mares were bred according to his statements. 1Million QH's were registered between 01 and 08 and he wants to see registrations go back up. I think he and his attitude are part of the problem. He thinks he is supposed to grow registrations like other corporations grow revenues. As for horses being turned into dog food my personal experience has been that dogs either will not eat it or get diarrhea from it even when fed with large amounts of moistened dry food. A long time ago I worked for somebody who got horsemeat by mistake and thought they should use it up. The dogs mostly went on a hunger strike and I wound up having to let it spoil(accidentally on purpose) so the dogs would not starve.


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## Zab

DarkChylde said:


> Ummm, what does this mean?


Just saying that I don't mean to claim that you have said some things..I moticed you've written ''I never said'' before a fewtimes and I'm just answering ''I know you havn't''

Uhm.. my head is fried tonight, there must be an easier way to say this.. anyway good night.


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## county

Horse meat has been illegal to use in commercial dog food since I think it was 77. I do know two breeders around here that make their own dog food and use horse meat this year. They buy horses for next to nothing this year and butcher them and use that meat in their mixture. We've cooked it on the grill this summer a few times and its pretty good tasting to me. Sweet taste compared to beef which I like better but I've eaten goat a few times and like horse alot better.


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## NicoleS11

o my gosh....i cant beleive you are telling us how it taste...thanks for the mental pic....:-x


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## county

When I was in Korea for a year I ate dog a few times tastes like chicken. I really don't see the big deal about different foods from different cultures. My father is 100% Swedish and loves Lutefish to me the stuff is downright nasty but I don't care that some people like it.


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## pleasurehorse11

With Horse slaughter in some cases i agree. Some horses are dangerous and there is nothing you can do about it no matter how many specialists or vets or trainers you take it to. As long as it is humane. especially with the economy in america or even the world and the way it is these poor horses are being abandoned in fields left to starve or being set free. In my opinion it is more cruel to let them starve then to put them out of their misery.


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## NicoleS11

personally i could care less if you have eaten a dog or a horse...or what it taste like...i dont think that is the point of this forum…discussing taste..


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## county

And I could care less if you care less.


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## Vidaloco

Sorry folks I think this thread has run its course and its going downhill fast. It will be closed, and for those of you that have not read our conscientious etiquette policy you should do so now. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/


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