# Lunging bitless



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

aharlov said:


> I have been working with a horse in a round pen, free lunging AND on the line, and he is fantastic. Very attentive, picks up on cues the second I ask them, etc.
> 
> The two times I have tried to lunge him OUTSIDE the round pen, however, he has pulled pretty hard on the lunge when asked to move up a gait (trying to pull out, which he obviously can't do in a round pen).
> 
> He is ridden bitless and I prefer to not use a bit with him. Any suggestions on how to get him to not pull on the line? Seeing as a tug of war will end in me on the ground and him smug for it.


What about using something like a Nurtural bitless bridle? I'm no expert, so maybe these aren't good ideas, but seems like they might work. So long as you could get it to release as soon as the horse gives to the pressure. I'm looking at one right now, and it seems like it would do this for ya. But get advice from someone who's actually done it, since I haven't.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

What equipment are you lungeing in? Ideally a caveson of some type. Horses do not pull, people do. Where are you starting (in the arena)? Hopefully in a corner, or somewhere with at least two sides. Are you standing still or walking? Are you using vibrations/hh to communicate? Keeping steady but light contact? Starting in walk on a small circle, or ??


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Is it just me? I lunge in a halter. I have lunged in side reins, but not for years. Just the rope halter and long line. When mine doesn't behave I make him stop and face me and start again.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I just typically lunge in a halter. I don't ever lunge in a round pen, though.

Try starting at the walk and work on spiraling in and out of the circle. Your horse has to learn how to respect you and the line. Once you can walk and halt calmly and make the circle as big or small as you want, then move on to the trot working with the same idea. Then, move on to canter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

equitate said:


> What equipment are you lungeing in? Ideally a caveson of some type. Horses do not pull, people do.
> 
> And what planet are you living on if you think horses dont pull get real:?. Horses can and do pull on you when being lunged. All i can say is you havent been around horses long if you think that.
> 
> ...


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

spirit88 said:


> equitate said:
> 
> 
> > What equipment are you lungeing in? Ideally a caveson of some type. Horses do not pull, people do.
> ...


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

If you go the cavesson route see if you can borrow one first. My horse HATES the lunging cavesson - doesn't like the ring on his nose and just tosses his head constantly. I lunge him in his bridle or halter when I actually do lunge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

I have trained horses for more than 50 years, at all levels in all disciplines, retraining more horses than I can count. Horses do what the handler allows. Start methodically. If the handler does not require focus or creates lack of balance horses will end up pulling to find their balance. By using half halts/vibrations/positioning the horse will learn to focus and then stretch (if there are not side reins). I too used to be more agressive, but the older I get the more I find that it is unnecessary in most cases.

Why use equipment for pain, why not train methodically and avoid jerks? For hundreds of years horses have been lunged in cavesons/serratas without aggression. Usually if there is head tossing/etc it is not fitted correctly (difficult to find a nicely padded lunge caveson with a jaw strap, easier to find a non serrated serrata (narrower than a caveson).

Lungeing off the bit should only be used as a last opinion, and then carefully so the bars are not impacted.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

equitate said:


> Why use equipment for pain, why not train methodically and avoid jerks? For hundreds of years horses have been lunged in cavesons/serratas without aggression. Usually if there is head tossing/etc it is not fitted correctly (difficult to find a nicely padded lunge caveson with a jaw strap, easier to find a non serrated serrata (narrower than a caveson
> 
> 
> For your information rope halters with knotts on nose band doesnt cause pain. Maybe in fairy land you never have to jerk on a horse,but in real life it happens.
> ...


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Knots specifically are specifically used for their impact on trigger points (put it over your bone and tug and see) which does cause pain (just like PP 'cradle bridles'). Posing away from pain is different that choosing to focus on the handler. Just because a NH uses something doesn't make w/o pain, it just makes it sold to a consumer. But the most interesting is that a knotted noseband would only be of valued because it would be used downward (from under the chin), which is no what happens when a horse is lunged from the side, same thing for knotted crown pieces effects. Lunging is for lateral flexibility w/o pulling the neck inward (or allowing counter flexion which is what happens with steady pressure, horses push into it). (What is interesting is NH rope halters are a product of the last 20-30 years or so. The most problematic thing about rope halters is that they do not break (unless they have a leather crown piece) if something untoward happens, seen horse hurt by that too. Slack lines don't give direction, so then is there a message? On parole, but training for what purpose? The horse should be responsible for its reaction to our actions, not the other way round. Jerks, very occasionally, and only for horse/handler safety if there is no other choices.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

equitate said:


> Knots specifically are specifically used for their impact on trigger points (put it over your bone and tug and see) which is pain (just like PP 'cradle bridles'). Posing away from pain is different that choosing to focus on the handler. Just because a NH uses something doesn't make w/o pain, it just makes it sold to a consumer. The worst thing about rope halters is that they do not break if something problematic happens, seen horse hurt by that too. Slack lines don't give direction, so then is there a message? On parole, but training for what purpose? The horse responsible for its reaction to our actions, not the other way round. Jerks, very occasionally, and only for horse/handler safety if there is no other choices.


I hardly ever lung my horses now i perfer to ride their days of lunging are over. They didnt need direction they knew what was expected, i dont have to micro manage every step they take. 

Have you ever heard of teaching them to be responsible for speed and direction. I dont have to be telling my horses all the time what to do. They are trained to go speed i say and stay that speed till told diffrent. 

Oh my horses also lunge off line not in a round pen out in the open and stay on the circle, how ever far i want them to be from me. So id say i know how to train. They never tossed their head when pressure was put on the halter. So id say there wasnt pain! 

Same deal when i ride they go speed i say never slow or speed up till told differnt. If you like to micro manage have fun i dont.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

We don't have a round pen and I've trained several horses to lunge. Yes they do pull at first as they try to "escape" to get a release from pressure. They do learn not to pull and keep slack in the rope to not have pressure on their face. Most of the time I use a nylon halter. Occasionally, I do use a rope halter if they do insist on lean on the halter. An occasional bump or jerk does not cause pain. Maybe discomfort but not pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

spirit88 said:


> For your information rope halters with knotts on nose band doesnt cause pain. ....All the big trainers like clinton anderson, pat parelli use rope halters so id say cant be all bad. ...Horses kick and bite each other so i honestly dout


Slow down & think about it some more. Yes, of course rope halters with extra knots(what do you think the extra knots are there for??) or other equipment used harshly can cause pain. Just because some 'gurus' do something doesn't mean it's necessarily right for all, but I don't think the use of rope halters is what's being argued here anyway. Just because horses kick & bite eachother doesn't mean that we should aim to treat them that way, and just because they do that to eachother doesn't mean anything less is not painful.

Anyway... OP I disagree with using a bit(or other potentially harsh equipment) with a long rein when training a horse to lunge or such. The added rope length means added weight & leverage on the bit, so can have the effect of the horse becoming 'heavier' on the aids. I would only use a regular halter until the horse is well trained at least. For this reason I also disagree with using a heavy rope with a heavy clip, as some 'gurus' advocate too. 

Agree basically with Equitate, that if you ask them to go out on a circle(or whatever... or dog pulling on a lead...) and they lean on the rope, if they continue this behaviour, it is due to the handler continuing to hang off the rope & allowing the horse to do that. Takes 2 to Tango.

So what do you do about it? First I'd teach the horse to do everything well & softly up close, before I test/reinforce it at a distance, as with lunging, so the horse is more likely to 'follow a feel' & not likely to hang off pressure anyway. Then if/when he does, I would be signalling for him to bring his head/FQ towards me a bit more, HQ away. 

If he didn't listen to that, I would not be adverse to 'bumping' him with the lead. Tends to only need/want small 'bumps' to make it uncomfortable, rather than strongly 'jerking' the horse around. If that didn't have the desired effect, I'd stop the horse & go back to earlier lessons, as I'd be thinking something was missing there.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

equitate said:


> The most problematic thing about rope halters is that they do not break (unless they have a leather crown piece) if something untoward happens, seen horse hurt by that too.


Which is why you don't use them for tying. Or if you do, you make sure that the poll is protected if the horse does pull back and don't ever tie them fast to something that they could pull over. Same thing tying with a bridle, though, or lunging with a curb bit in my opinion. This equipment is all still very useful, and humane, when used _correctly_. Just because you don't use it for that purpose doesn't mean it's incorrect or inhumane. It matters more how the person is using it, and I don't believe you could really do anything with a rope halter in hand on a long line that is going to actually hurt a horse. Put pressure on it, make it uncomfortable if necessary, but not hurt or injure. You lose too much leverage with that length of line especially.



equitate said:


> Slack lines don't give direction, so then is there a message? On parole, but training for what purpose? The horse should be responsible for its reaction to our actions, not the other way round. Jerks, very occasionally, and only for horse/handler safety if there is no other choices.


I read this like an English rider who is judgmental and has no experience with other styles of riding saying that a horse can't be ridden correctly on a draped rein... I ride my horse without contact and sometimes not even using the bridle and somehow he still knows how to stay between my legs and take direction from body language. Not perfect, but isn't that the end goal? Can it not be the same way from the ground? What about bridleless riders? Liberty training? I want my horse to move with me, direct contact or not. I know there is definitely a use for contact in many facets of horsemanship, but the way that you have stated it sounds very narrow minded and as if that is the only correct way, no exceptions. Please correct me if I am reading you wrong here, it just does not make sense the way I am understanding it.

***Also to clarify, my example of the judgmental English rider was ONLY an example and not to be taken that this is how I think English riders all. It was just as close a comparison as I could think of at the moment!


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Use a knot halter, correctly adjusted and it should solve the problem. I also like round heavy lungelines, easier to keep a hold of with a horse that wants to be a punk. And rope halters do not cause pain. They use the pressure points only when the horse is trying to run though it. smh.

Lunging cavesons are the same idea. Gives you a little more control.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

loosie said:


> Slow down & think about it some more. Yes, of course rope halters with extra knots(what do you think the extra knots are there for??) or other equipment used harshly can cause pain. Just because some 'gurus' do something doesn't mean it's necessarily right for all, but I don't think the use of rope halters is what's being argued here anyway. Just because horses kick & bite eachother doesn't mean that we should aim to treat them that way, and just because they do that to eachother doesn't mean anything less is not painful.
> 
> 
> The knotts are there to get the horses attension that with a flat nylon halter doesnt get their attension. Flat halters cause them to lean on it. I wasnt using it harshly when id jerk or bump on line. Only jerked hard enough to get their attension back on me,iam not talking taking off their heads with the jerk.
> ...


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

SMH...seriously...you're still on the knot halter. It does it's job and makes the cue stronger. Makes the correction more obvious. A little pressure from a knot halter or repeated yanking on nylon halter are the OPs options if she doesn't want a bit.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^A knotted halter or a bit doesn't teach a horse not to lean - there are many horses who have been inadvertently taught to lean on them. Likewise a flat halter doesn't teach them to do it either. It's the... jerk on the other end of the lead(don't pardon the pun!  ) that teaches them to lean or not.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks Loosie. A horse cannot lean on ANYTHING if there is nothing to lean ON! That goes for reins, halter, you when you are picking their feet…..whatever. It is NOT the horses fault. It is the human in the equation.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I know some people use a rope halter but I hate them. I use a regular halter, if I need a little more control I run the line over the poll. I don't have a cavesson because I am poor lol. I agree that it's a training thing. He is used to having physical boundaries, now he just needs to learn that the line is the boundary. Just bump him off of your hand and he'll figure it out.

I have seen horses lean just because they're unbalanced, though if he is fine in the roundpen I think it's just a "boundary" think.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

For what it is worth I rode the top western eq horses in the country and grew up on a working cattle ranch. I train for all disciplines, and a judge, had traine horses in four disciplines to top national/international standard, and have ridden bitless and bridle less as well. For what it is also worth my mom had a circus act as well. It is not there is one correct way, but most horses react to far less than handlers/riders tend to think.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't like rope halters either. You'll likely see the fastest results from using any halter (nylon or rope) and starting slow and close. You have to give your house the chance to learn what you want him to know. Of course you're going to get puking and the larger the circle, the more pulling the will be. Go back to basics, be patient, and only progress when your horse is ready.

There are no short cuts. There are no quick fixes. Constant jerking won't do you or your horse any good.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree Seamom.... except that I've never puked when I do circles!:lol:


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

The only halters I own are rope halters have one regular one never use it. Never will use a regular halter either. 

For most part I don't even need a halter just a rope around their neck so I don't need it for control my horses are very responsive. Can lead all 3 horses just by putting my hand under their chin no halter needed..


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh, man! I definitely missed that one. That was supposed to be "pulling", but I have certainly gotten awfully dizzy many times. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

equitate said:


> For what it is worth I rode the top western eq horses in the country and grew up on a working cattle ranch. I train for all disciplines, and a judge, had traine horses in four disciplines to top national/international standard, and have ridden bitless and bridle less as well. For what it is also worth my mom had a circus act as well.* It is not there is one correct way, but most horses react to far less than handlers/riders tend to think.*




Isnt that the case! but, it takes time to have the kind of feel that you KNOW that. most folks have to start out shouting to be heard, before they realize that the horse will listen to a whisper. It might take a horse that has a habit of pulling or leaning on the lunge line a couple of "shouts", in the form of a short , sharp tug, to get his attention. just be sure taht you go and try whispering once you 
DO have his attention. if you continue shouting, he'll soon tune that out and then what do you have?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

spirit88 said:


> The only halters I own are rope halters have one regular one never use it. Never will use a regular halter either.
> 
> For most part I don't even need a halter just a rope around their neck so I don't need it for control my horses are very responsive. Can lead all 3 horses just by putting my hand under their chin no halter needed..


 Why? If you don't need a halter even what is your logic?

I put rope halter because I think it's a viable option a lot of people use, I personally don't and wouldn't recommend it but it is an option. (Obviously we are talking for lunging also and not day to day use, though I wouldn't use it there either)


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## tenkides (Jan 3, 2014)

i lunge in a rope halter and a nylon one both work for me. i also have used a rope halter with an attachment that allows for a stud chain. i never had to use it but if it gets bad try it as a last resort.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I have never heard of a rope halter with a stud chain.. Isn't a rope halter already the same concept as a stud chain?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you NEVER lunge in a chain.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> I have never heard of a rope halter with a stud chain.. Isn't a rope halter already the same concept as a stud chain?


Not in the least! A rope halter is a... halter. A stud chain is just a punishment tool. I would liken it more to a bit than a halter.

I personally use rope halters because they're strong, no hardware to rust or break, they're light and you can just chuck em in the wash when they're dirty.

I will not use a rope halter to tie firm, unless the horse is already very well trained. I will not tie firm in a trailer or anywhere unsafe, as it's likely something else will break before the halter. I will not leave a rope halter on a horse unattended, unless there's a 'safety break' in the form of a balers twine loop to tie it, for eg.(not that I leave horses haltered when loose anyway). I will not use a rope halter low on the nose. I will not use a rope halter with extra knots on nose or poll.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SEAmom said:


> Oh, man! I definitely missed that one. That was supposed to be "pulling", but I have certainly gotten awfully dizzy many times. Lol.


Gathered what you meant... but if you're getting dizzy, you should have been told it's the _*horse*_ that's meant to be doing the circling!:lol:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I get dizzy too, sometimes.


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## Soulofhorse (Jan 7, 2012)

You should pay less attention to the equipment and more to the horse. I would reccomend to slow down a little bit - your horse can have some issues with working on the lung in open space or he can simply push against the lunge to find some balance to help him make the transition. You could work on the transitions under saddle and in the round pen, and in your place I'd try to walk the circle with your horse when you're lunging - just like leading him on a longer rope on a distance - that should help you to work better with the leadrope (not aloowing the horse to push agaist it) and if YOU make the transition with your horse (I mean you start "trotting" next to him) it will help him to improve the transitions definitely. It seems like a small detail but once the horse can read the speech of your body and he sees the transition coming it really helps a lot.


And... sorry for the grammar mistakes , I'm Czech and my English is really not the best.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I honestly don't understand what some people mean when they say a horse won't pull. I understand that horses can't lean unless you give them something to lean on (that could be the bit or the halter). 

But, she can't very well give him slack to prevent him from pulling if he's running straight out of the circle. 

I'll also add that I use both rope and nylon web halters. I only tie with nylon though, and I never tie solid. A rope halter is just more convenient, I don't like the weight of a metal clip, and they're easier to wash. Just like nearly EVERYTHING in the horse world, they can cause pain in the wrong hands, just like a bit, crop, spurs, or a hackamore. They aren't the least bit painful unless someone pulls hard (horse or handler). Nylon web halters are easier to lean on, and bronc bands are even worse. A rope halter will encourage the horse to not lean.

Anyway, to the OP- I wouldn't lunge in a bit. I would stick with a halter, nylon or rope won't matter. Here's what I would do:
1.) If he doesn't already flex, teach him to. Stand at his girth and pick up the lead with two fingers and bring it up towards his withers. You want him to really try to get to his girth line. If he doesn't flex within a few seconds of the cue then bump, bump, bump until he does. And I don't mean to rip his head off, just a bump. Practice this on both sides. Eventually he'll learn to flex on a feel (meaning when you pick up the lead, he'll flex with little pressure.) This is a Clinton Anderson method, although I'm sure plenty of trainers do it, so maybe you can find a video.
2.) I would do yielding exercises. If he doesn't already, train him to yield his hindquarters and forequarters. There's tons of information on how to teach that.
3.) Once he is yielding pretty well, start doing sending exercises. I'd start by standing about ten feet away from a fence and sending him between the fence and yourself. Once his drive line is past you, cue him to yield his hindquarters. At first he may rush through, but he'll learn to go through slow and relaxed. Start out at a walk. Then close the space between the fence and yourself a bit and repeat.
4.) Once he has that down (meaning he's soft and doesn't pull you) move on to lunging. I would try to lunge with a line, but in the round pen at first. Start slow. When you change directions in the round pen, does he turn into you in to the fence? If he's into the fence don't allow that. Does he seem to be paying attention to you? (i.e. One ear to you, head tipped your direction) or is he looking out of the pen? If he isn't focused on you change directions, or ask for a downward transition. The more direction changes and transitions you ask for the more
focused he's going to be.
5.) Now start lunging outside. Again, START SLOW. Try using a corner or something as an aid, too. Begin in a smaller circle at a walk. Ask for a stop/direction change every now and then. Then try a larger circle at a walk, then add a trot if he's doing well. Then eventually a lope/canter. You should be able to lunge him without using a corner before too long.

If he tries pulling don't pull back. Bump him. If he isn't doing well with a step try going back to the previous step, or if you just added speed go down a gait. Obviously, Rome wasn't built in a day and this method will take a little time.

I'm not a trainer, but this has worked with horses I've had. Good luck and I hope I helped.

*Sorry for any typing errors, I'm on my smartphone*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Gaining Respect and Control On The Ground - Series I - YouTube

1.) #7
2.) #3 and #5
3.) #8
4&5.) #3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

spirit88 said:


> The only halters I own are rope halters have one regular one never use it. Never will use a regular halter either.
> 
> For most part I don't even need a halter just a rope around their neck so I don't need it for control my horses are very responsive. Can lead all 3 horses just by putting my hand under their chin no halter needed..


So you tie and trailer etc…..in a rope halter?:shock: Or are they loose in the trailer?

I also would never tie hard or leave unattended in a rope halter…..I use it as a training tool. Sometimes a nylon halter just does not get the message across.

I think there are different things people think of when someone says "stud chain" and perhaps that is some of the confusion? Some think it is a chain on the upper gums, some think it is a chain over the nose or under the chin.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

loosie said:


> Not in the least! A rope halter is a... halter. A stud chain is just a punishment tool. I would liken it more to a bit than a halter.
> 
> I personally use rope halters because they're strong, no hardware to rust or break, they're light and you can just chuck em in the wash when they're dirty.
> 
> I will not use a rope halter to tie firm, unless the horse is already very well trained. I will not tie firm in a trailer or anywhere unsafe, as it's likely something else will break before the halter. I will not leave a rope halter on a horse unattended, unless there's a 'safety break' in the form of a balers twine loop to tie it, for eg.(not that I leave horses haltered when loose anyway). I will not use a rope halter low on the nose. I will not use a rope halter with extra knots on nose or poll.


 I feel a rope halter was designed more as a training tool than a day to day item (though it is often used as such). The purpose of the rope halter it to "bite" in the right places. It applied pressure to a thin line on the nose as does a stud chain. While obviously different I see similarities in design and usage. Having a rope halter with a stud chain is somewhat cruel imo, you already have something to bite into their nose, why use something else to do the same thing? It's not like you can wrap it around the halter, since you will be having the same bite since the halter is just as thin.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> So you tie and trailer etc…..in a rope halter?:shock: Or are they loose in the trailer?
> 
> I also would never tie hard or leave unattended in a rope halter…..I use it as a training tool. Sometimes a nylon halter just does not get the message across.
> 
> I think there are different things people think of when someone says "stud chain" and perhaps that is some of the confusion? Some think it is a chain on the upper gums, some think it is a chain over the nose or under the chin.


 A stud chain is a chain. You can put it over the nose/under the nose/over gums/through mouth whatever. It's the same thing. How you use it varies.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> you NEVER lunge in a chain.


I don't know why they make those. I winch every time I see someone using one.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Yogiwick said:


> A stud chain is a chain. You can put it over the nose/under the nose/over gums/through mouth whatever. It's the same thing. How you use it varies.


and some folks use the lead with the chain in the end just as a lead. They double the chain and clip it back on itself. That is also what I have seen done with lunge lines with chains. Why, I have no idea. Guess they think they then have the chain if they need it? Which also makes me cringe…...


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> and some folks use the lead with the chain in the end just as a lead. They double the chain and clip it back on itself. That is also what I have seen done with lunge lines with chains. Why, I have no idea. Guess they think they then have the chain if they need it? Which also makes me cringe…...


 It's still a stud chain! just no being used as one. I use stud chain on one of my horses on occasion. It is doubled back on itself most of the time, if I need it it's there. It's annoying swinging weight though. If you don't need it get rid of it.

I have used a lunge line with a chain. I refused to use the chain so it just hung there swinging around. Really hard to teach a horse to lunge when you have this big weighted section that also likes to pop up and hit them in the face (can't remember why but I couldn't even double it back). I almost thought about threading it through the halter just so it wouldn't hit her I the face... Ugh. I'm starting to keep my own stuff in my car. Need to add a lunge, halter, bits, etc... You would be surprised.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Guess we will have to agree to use the term differently. I call it a lead with a chain, and use the term "stud chain" only when I place it over the nose, under the chin, or on the gums, none of which I do anymore since I use a rope halter, and have no need for one of those leads. Perhaps different areas use different terms.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> A stud chain is a chain. You can put it over the nose/under the nose/over gums/through mouth whatever. It's the same thing. How you use it varies.


 But it is difficult it is a rope halter rather than a leather halter with places to (safely) attach it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sure, I think of it more as a lead with a chain being the same as a lead with a stud chain. Chain= stud chain. (Though day to day I usually just say chain, but again I feel like I am abbreviating for stud chain). I won't say "I'm leading my horse with a chain" if it's under his chin since it's not in use, but will say, you should use a lead with a chain in case you need it.

I feel the term is the same only you use it for when the chain is in use whereas I feel it is the name of the chain. Same difference though  Pretty close thing.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

equitate said:


> But it is difficult it is a rope halter rather than a leather halter with places to (safely) attach it.


 I'm afraid I don't quite understand that post. I also googled "rope halter with stud chain" and got absolutely nowhere. As I said not something I _ever _heard of or would think of, so I wonder if we are thinking of different things. I'd be interested in seeing a picture if you have one.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> So you tie and trailer etc…..in a rope halter?:shock: Or are they loose in the trailer?
> 
> I also would never tie hard or leave unattended in a rope halter…..I use it as a training tool. Sometimes a nylon halter just does not get the message across.
> 
> I think there are different things people think of when someone says "stud chain" and perhaps that is some of the confusion? Some think it is a chain on the upper gums, some think it is a chain over the nose or under the chin.


When we do longer trail rides or ride into town, we use a rope halter under the bridle to tie went we stop for a break. That way we aren't tying with the bit and don't have a nylon halter interfering with the bridle. We tie solid if we need to. If the horse should pull back, the lead rope clip does break. 

We have used rope halters when trailering but try to use the nylon ones if possible. We also tie them in the trailer. 

Yes, accidents could and do happen. Teach your horse to tie properly and you've lessened the possibility. 

Everyone has their preference but if it's not the same as yours, that doesn't mean it's wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Stud chains are used most often either to show a stud or to handle a stud for breeding. Not all stallions need them, although some show situations require them and they are not a bad idea for safety reasons with stallions. They are not safe to lunge with and should not be used for lunging.

A chain on a lead is a chain. Stud chain, lead chain and chain on a lead are the same thing. Putting a stud chain on a rope halter is ridiculous.

Proper lunging is done in full tack. If you're not going to do that, your best bet is a knot halter.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

palogal said:


> Stud chains are used most often either to show a stud or to handle a stud for breeding. Not all stallions need them, although some show situations require them and they are not a bad idea for safety reasons with stallions. They are not safe to lunge with and should not be used for lunging.
> 
> A chain on a lead is a chain. Stud chain, lead chain and chain on a lead are the same thing. Putting a stud chain on a rope halter is ridiculous.


Completely agree with this! Though I will add that "stud chains" are not necessarily gender specific. There are plenty of geldings and mares that also use them. They are used more often on stallions though.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> Completely agree with this! Though I will add that "stud chains" are not necessarily gender specific. There are plenty of geldings and mares that also use them. They are used more often on stallions though.


Sure, but they're not generally required for mares and geldings. A stallion can be more unpredictable and more dangerous than a mare or gelding.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

palogal said:


> Sure, but they're not generally required for mares and geldings. A stallion can be more unpredictable and more dangerous than a mare or gelding.


As far as required I think in the show ring for stallions or certain classes for all horses. I agree they are more commonly used in stallions due to the nature of a stallion but I don't think of them as a "requirement" unless you are talking about showing. I typically use them on pushy strong horses (either tank type horse or hot not focused horse), or aggressive horses, I see them often on well behaved stallions as a "just in case" and to be able to correct them firmly once instead of starting a fight.


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

Not that I want to get jumped on again by a certain someone, but I must say that I would never lunge in a rope halter, especially one with knots! That's one step down from lunging in barbed wire... 

In my experience, lunging requires a light, but CONSTANT contact, which would be extremely painful with rope halter. These are uniquely for short corrections or riding with indirect reining. I can't see these used in English riding or its associated lunging. 

Just had to get that in there. I lunge in wide nylon halters, and use the line to communicate with the house as I would with my reins. The lunge whip takes the place of my leg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Some schooling type shows, f they allow stallions at all, require a chain or a bridle due to the large number of inexperienced handlers, kids etc. in halter classes. Nothing would be a bigger disaster than some little kid, with his best (in heat) mare buddy, innocently butting up to a stallion and causing a problem because the child does not understand stallions. Not that a stud chain would solve all such problems, but for those reasons, precautions are taken.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

usandpets said:


> When we do longer trail rides or ride into town, we use a rope halter under the bridle to tie went we stop for a break. That way we aren't tying with the bit and don't have a nylon halter interfering with the bridle. We tie solid if we need to. If the horse should pull back, the lead rope clip does break.
> 
> We have used rope halters when trailering but try to use the nylon ones if possible. We also tie them in the trailer.
> 
> ...


I didn't say it was wrong. Just said I would never do it.


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

As for the OP's question, I would simply use a pull-release method to insure the horse does not veer out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> So you tie and trailer etc…..in a rope halter?:shock: Or are they loose in the trailer?
> 
> I also would never tie hard or leave unattended in a rope halter…..I use it as a training tool. Sometimes a nylon halter just does not get the message across.
> 
> I think there are different things people think of when someone says "stud chain" and perhaps that is some of the confusion? Some think it is a chain on the upper gums, some think it is a chain over the nose or under the chin.


Yep I tie my horses with rope halter hard and fast no ones ever been hurt. Also trailer them with rope halter tied up never been an issue. My horses tie and are used to be tied sometimes for hours.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

wtwg said:


> Not that I want to get jumped on again by a certain someone, but I must say that I would never lunge in a rope halter, especially one with knots! That's one step down from lunging in barbed wire...
> 
> In my experience, lunging requires a light, but CONSTANT contact, which would be extremely painful with rope halter. These are uniquely for short corrections or riding with indirect reining. I can't see these used in English riding or its associated lunging.
> 
> ...


Again-to each their own. I don't lunge with constant contact. Haven't in years. And, my rope halters don't have "knots" on the noseband. Certainly not anything close to barb wire, really?
Any halter can hurt if used wrong, just like any bit, etc……it is the user not the tool.

I really think we have gotten WAY off topic-sorry OP!


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

wtwg said:


> Not that I want to get jumped on again by a certain someone, but I must say that I would never lunge in a rope halter, especially one with knots! That's one step down from lunging in barbed wire...
> 
> In my experience, lunging requires a light, but CONSTANT contact, which would be extremely painful with rope halter. These are uniquely for short corrections or riding with indirect reining. I can't see these used in English riding or its associated lunging.
> 
> ...


If lunging requires constant contact, is it not possible to lunge at liberty?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Again-to each their own. I don't lunge with constant contact. Haven't in years. And, my rope halters don't have "knots" on the noseband. Certainly not anything close to barb wire, really?
> Any halter can hurt if used wrong, just like any bit, etc……it is the user not the tool.
> 
> I really think we have gotten WAY off topic-sorry OP!


I don't know... I made a rope halter with the knots once, and tried it on myself. It hurt like a ---------- with anything more than moderate contact. A good jerk was quite painful as well. I can't imagine that being applied to a horse's nose. 

I've also seen a horse with scars from that contraption. I legitimately thought it had gotten barbed wire looped around its face. That was an extreme case though. 

If you don't lunge with direct contact, and have horses that are trained to where you don't have to give many corrections, and use regular rope halters with no knots, then I see no problem. Very few people meets that criteria though, so I wouldn't recommend such a thing over the internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

wtwg said:


> Not that I want to get jumped on again by a certain someone, but I must say that I would never lunge in a rope halter, especially one with knots! That's one step down from lunging in barbed wire...
> 
> In my experience, lunging requires a light, but CONSTANT contact, which would be extremely painful with rope halter. These are uniquely for short corrections or riding with indirect reining. I can't see these used in English riding or its associated lunging.
> 
> ...


A rope halter with knotts on nose band hardly quailifys as barbed wire get real not even close.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

A rope halter made from a softer rope without the knots is still very effective without being painful. The softness of the rope is key. The stiffer the rope, the more it hurts.


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

usandpets said:


> If lunging requires constant contact, is it not possible to lunge at liberty?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a western thing I believe. In a round pen? 

I know what you mean, and I've seen it done very successfully by a very experienced horseman, an expert in natural horsemanship.

This is merely exercise though, maybe respect work. 

True lunging requires a line, and the similar aids as are used when mounted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> A rope halter made from a softer rope without the knots is still very effective without being painful. The softness of the rope is key. The stiffer the rope, the more it hurts.


I fully agree. Thicker rope is also milder, as are braided nosebands and such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtwg (Oct 20, 2013)

usandpets said:


> If lunging requires constant contact, is it not possible to lunge at liberty?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not that I don't see the benefits of working at liberty, I do so on a regular basis. 

I wouldn't call it lunging though, as it doesn't allow me to work with my horse to the same level as when I have him/her on a line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Mod note:

Please keep it civil. Some posts had to be snipped out. This is interesting talk and interesting info. It'd be a shame for it to go all rotten.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> I honestly don't understand what some people mean when they say a horse won't pull. I understand that horses can't lean unless you give them something to lean on


I thought that's what we were talking about, but whether you call it pulling or leaning, they won't *continue* doing it unless the handler does too.:wink:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> The purpose of the rope halter it to "bite" in the right places. It applied pressure to a thin line on the nose as does a stud chain. While obviously different I see similarities in design and usage. Having a rope halter with a stud chain is somewhat cruel imo,


Last bit of the above I agree to wholeheartedly. I wouldn't use a stud chain regardless of what other equipment - particularly used across the gums as some do!! That is horrid & I'd like to take a stud chain to those handler's gums & give a few good yanks!:evil:

I don't think rope halters were _designed_ for their 'bite', although many have made the most of it & that's the only use for the extra knots on that particular style. I've seen some rather nasty rope halters, made from thin, prickly sisal, hard nylon, super thin, etc. I make mine from 8mm soft yacht braid rope, and as well as not having extra knots on them, I am particular about ensuring both nose pieces are exactly even length & not twisted, for even pressure and the side knots are low, well off the top of the nose. So doubled across the nose & at the poll, the width the pressure is distributed is 16mm - twice that of the average stud chain, not to mention smooth & soft rather than hard & lumpy.

Still, too thin & strong to tie firm to or anything else where accidents could happen - only seen a horse injure his spinal column once from pulling back(ended up being put down from neurological damage), but heard of many more. But once was enough for me to want to consider the 'what ifs' of a thin, unbreakable halter.

I've seen many people use rope halters(& other equipment) harshly too & I think that it's similar to the bit argument in that respect - that it's not so much about whether you use a thin piece of metal in a horse's sensitive mouth, but how it's used & the education of horse & handler in using it correctly.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

wtwg said:


> That's a western thing I believe. In a round pen? ....
> True lunging requires a line, and the similar aids as are used when mounted.


Whether it's a 'western thing' or not, I don't think it's anything more or less 'true'. Just a different style. I personally think it's important to teach a horse both, although I have never aimed to lunge with constant pressure, just do it for ground driving(if the reins go through rings on a roller, to 'break' the weight) and ridden. Oh & I do teach horses to 'ground drive' with me beside them too, so...

While I teach horses how to work 'into a feel', for precise, collected work, I lunge in the manner I ride most of the time - teaching the horse to respond & maintain a requested gait without being 'micromanaged', on a loose rein. I do a lot of trail riding & I don't want my horses needing me to 'hold their hands' the whole way. IMO reins are to be used as needed, rather than constantly. You can call it the Australian thing!:wink: Oh & don't know about round pens, but I find corners handy!

Anyway, yes, getting OT a bit, tho hope the above will help OP. I think it would make it harder to stop the horse leaning if you're striving for constant feel. Even if I wanted to lunge that way, I'd teach the horse to respond without first, as I do for riding, etc, then when they're going well, get more particular with 'feel'.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

loosie said:


> Still, too thin & strong to tie firm to or anything else where accidents could happen - only seen a horse injure his spinal column once from pulling back(ended up being put down from neurological damage), but heard of many more. But once was enough for me to want to consider the 'what ifs' of a thin, unbreakable halter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Spirit-accidents are just that, and they happen, no matter how much you train. Some of us prefer not to take that chance. That is our prerogative.

This thread is about lunging. I really think we should try to get back on track.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Franknbean the horse needs to know how to respond to pressure from halter when lunging also so it does have to do with lunging. I wasnt only one a little off topic either. Thats right my prerogitive to choose to tie with rope halters,been doing that for over 25 years too.

I think i know accidents can happen iv been around horses for many many years. Havent had a hurt horse in over 25 years so think iv got a clue here.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

You may not have had problems, set the horse up for success in the first place. However, others may not have provided the same basis, better safe than sorry for most imho.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

spirit88 said:


> loosie said:
> 
> 
> > Still, too thin & strong to tie firm to or anything else where accidents could happen - only seen a horse injure his spinal column once from pulling back(ended up being put down from neurological damage), but heard of many more. But once was enough for me to want to consider the 'what ifs' of a thin, unbreakable halter.
> ...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

spirit88 said:


> Franknbean the horse needs to know how to respond to pressure from halter when lunging also so it does have to do with lunging. I wasnt only one a little off topic either. Thats right my prerogitive to choose to tie with rope halters,been doing that for over 25 years too.
> 
> I think i know accidents can happen iv been around horses for many many years. Havent had a hurt horse in over 25 years so think iv got a clue here.


Know what-you do what you like, and I will do the same. We can agree to disagree. That is what happens sometimes. I will not get my panties in a twist over it. Plain and simple.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Know what-you do what you like, and I will do the same. We can agree to disagree. That is what happens sometimes. I will not get my panties in a twist over it. Plain and simple.


That's fine we don't have to agree iv got my opinion and you have your opinion doesn't make either one right or wrong.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

aharlov said:


> I have been working with a horse in a round pen, free lunging AND on the line, and he is fantastic. Very attentive, picks up on cues the second I ask them, etc.
> 
> The two times I have tried to lunge him OUTSIDE the round pen, however, he has pulled pretty hard on the lunge when asked to move up a gait (trying to pull out, which he obviously can't do in a round pen).
> 
> He is ridden bitless and I prefer to not use a bit with him. Any suggestions on how to get him to not pull on the line? Seeing as a tug of war will end in me on the ground and him smug for it.


OP, I feel like you are getting two different ideas confused here. 

Are you lunging him in a halter or in a bitless bridle?

Yes, it is possible to lunge to lunge in a bit, but I myself do not do that for one major reason: You have to switch your lead line set-up every single time you switch directions. Since I do a lot of direction changes when I lunge my horses (I lunge for respect; not for making them tired), that isn't feasible to stop them for every direction change to switch how my hardware is set up.

I like to lunge in a halter because then I can attach the lunge line on the bottom of the halter, and it doesn't matter if I change directions. Where are you attaching the line when you use a bitless bridle (as I assume that is what you are using?). If you have it attached on one side, you'll have to stop your horse and change it when you switch directions. Again, for what I use lunging for, that does not work well. 

And actually where I board right now, I don't even have a round pen, so the only lunging I do is free lunging in the arena. 

I want you to watch him closer when you have him on the line in the round pen. Is he pulling on your there? He might be a little bit, and you haven't noticed. 

When you try it "in the open" again, start at the walk with your circle small. Anytime your horse PULLS on your, give a little tug on the lead to get the horse to give to you. If the horse cuts in on the circle, use your lunge whip and body language to push him outward. Get him walking nicely in a small circle, perfectly, first. Then try the trot. Same thing where if your horse pulls on the lead at all, do not let him. Give him a tug on the lead so that he gives his nose to you. Perfect at the trot at a small circle. Then try a larger circle. And then finally progress to the lope. 

I expect my horses to regulate the lunge line. Meaning, I do not want them to pull on it, yet I do not want them to cut into the circle and have the line super loose. I want them to automatically adjust their circle size based on if I feed them more line to make the circle bigger, or if I shorten the line up. They should be paying attention to me, as that is the purpose I am lunging them for: Attention and respect. 



2BigReds said:


> Which is why you don't use them for tying. Or if you do, you make sure that the poll is protected if the horse does pull back


I know that is one side of the rope halter opinion, but I disagree with it. All I own are rope halters (with the exception of breakaway halters that I use for trailering). And that's what they are tied in. And they do get left unattended. As one example, I volunteer to help announce at once-a-month family rodeos that I also compete in. While I am announcing, my horses are tied at the trailer, in their rope halters. I do the horse stuff alone, for the most part, so I just check on them whenever I get a quick break. I really do not see any difference on what is on your horse's head if you tie them unattended. 

I do have quick release snaps on all my lead ropes so that they can be released quickly in an emergency where someone is tangled up. 

I like my rope halters because it gets their_ attention_ in a hurry. I rarely need to use them in that way, but it is there if I need it. 

Plus, if my horses ever pull back (rarely ever happens) I do not want that halter or anything to break. I don't want them to learn they can get away by pulling back. I know my rope halters won't break. 




wtwg said:


> I must say that I would never lunge in a rope halter, especially one with knots! That's one step down from lunging in barbed wire...
> 
> In my experience, lunging requires a light, but CONSTANT contact, which would be extremely painful with rope halter. These are uniquely for short corrections or riding with indirect reining. I can't see these used in English riding or its associated lunging.


Barbed wire? I've got to disagree with that. Sure, a rope halter can absolutely be harsh in the wrong hands. Just like any bit, or any other piece of tack. 

A rope halter is the only thing I lunge in. And I rarely have to "use" the knots, because my horses know what I am asking and know how to behave. They respect it. 

I am also going to disagree that lunging requires light constant contact. If that were true, then it would be impossible to free lunge in a round pen without a lunge line. You've got to keep in mind that there is more than just English riding in the world. 



SEAmom said:


> Of course you're going to get puking and the larger the circle,


:clap: Haha, I just have to comment on this because when my mom lunges a horse, she stays facing one direction and just moves the lunge line around her body. She can't turn with the horse as he/she goes around because she gets THAT dizzy THAT quick!! If she so much as spins around once, she can hardly walk straight, LOL. 



usandpets said:


> We have used rope halters when trailering but try to use the nylon ones if possible. We also tie them in the trailer.


While I am a fan of rope halters, I never trailer my horses tied with a rope halter. If I should get into a wreck while hauling, and my horses fall down, they will literally HANG there. I always use a nylon halter that has a leather breakaway strap on the poll. And I also have elastic ties with a panic snap on the window side (not the horse side). If I get into a wreck, I want to know that my horses won't be stuck hanging by their neck in the trailer.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

loosie said:


> Last bit of the above I agree to wholeheartedly. I wouldn't use a stud chain regardless of what other equipment - particularly used across the gums as some do!! That is horrid & I'd like to take a stud chain to those handler's gums & give a few good yanks!:evil:
> 
> I don't think rope halters were _designed_ for their 'bite', although many have made the most of it & that's the only use for the extra knots on that particular style. I've seen some rather nasty rope halters, made from thin, prickly sisal, hard nylon, super thin, etc. I make mine from 8mm soft yacht braid rope, and as well as not having extra knots on them, I am particular about ensuring both nose pieces are exactly even length & not twisted, for even pressure and the side knots are low, well off the top of the nose. So doubled across the nose & at the poll, the width the pressure is distributed is 16mm - twice that of the average stud chain, not to mention smooth & soft rather than hard & lumpy.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

spirit88 said:


> loosie said:
> 
> 
> > Still, too thin & strong to tie firm to or anything else where accidents could happen - only seen a horse injure his spinal column once from pulling back(ended up being put down from neurological damage), but heard of many more. But once was enough for me to want to consider the 'what ifs' of a thin, unbreakable halter.
> ...


I think the issue is *if* they didn't. Which does happen even with the best, well trained, never pulled in their life horses. And once a horse freaks nothing it going to stop it. Also in the trailer, even if the horse didn't pull. If they fell (obviously dangerous either way) I'd rather have something that may break and if not at least apply pressure over a larger area than something that will not break and has a thin line that will dig into their head.

In theory spirit, you could argue you could tie your horses with barbed wire (or whatever, at least a thin wire) because they are trained. Could you, probably, would you? Not disagreeing, and it's important your horses know how to respond to pressure, but imo horse safety 101 is planning for the "what ifs" that are part of working with horses.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> I think the issue is *if* they didn't. Which does happen even with the best, well trained, never pulled in their life horses. And once a horse freaks nothing it going to stop it. Also in the trailer, even if the horse didn't pull. If they fell (obviously dangerous either way) I'd rather have something that may break and if not at least apply pressure over a larger area than something that will not break and has a thin line that will dig into their head.
> 
> In theory spirit, you could argue you could tie your horses with barbed wire (or whatever, at least a thin wire) because they are trained. Could you, probably, would you? Not disagreeing, and it's important your horses know how to respond to pressure, but imo horse safety 101 is planning for the "what ifs" that are part of working with horses.



Ok I don't tie horses up in trailer to start with don't need to. Nylon flat halters don't break iv seen horses strangled to death from a nylon halter that got caught up on a tree branch.

I know for fact my gelding if freaked doesn't pull back and fight tie he comes forward off pressure from halter. I do plan on the what ifs that's why my horse is trained to respond to come forward off pressure from halter they do it reliabley. 

Rope halter I use is a soft rope so not going to do damage. I know my horses and how they respond to diffrent things. Will be back later when I have access to desk top computer.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oops, sorry, thought you said you did tie in a trailer. Nylon isn't guaranteed to break but it is much more likely to. Especially if it has a breakaway strap, and as said the hardware is weak. I've seen horse snap relatively new hardware doing basic horse things (playing/scratching/etc).

I'm glad your gelding is so well trained, my comment wasn't directed at you/your horse specifically


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Too short.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That literally made me LOL and then I looked at the giraffes face and felt guilty for laughing..


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> Oops, sorry, thought you said you did tie in a trailer. Nylon isn't guaranteed to break but it is much more likely to. Especially if it has a breakaway strap, and as said the hardware is weak. I've seen horse snap relatively new hardware doing basic horse things (playing/scratching/etc).
> 
> I'm glad your gelding is so well trained, my comment wasn't directed at you/your horse specifically



I know you comment wasnt aim at me directly i just wanted it clear i dont tie, horses in trailer with rope halters.

Because my horse comes forward off pressure from halter when i lunge hes very soft with body bent in direction of circle. He follows a feel and a very light lunges with a loop in rope. 

Iv have put many hours into him this didnt happen in a month. I want my horse soft and light on end of rope same when i ride. 

Not saying he would never come unglued and pull back but iv put training into him to hopefully lessen that chance.

After all he is a horse and horses can be horses sometimes but i can read him, i know him well enough i can see trouble before it starts.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This thread seems to have gone off in so many directions its hard to keep up with
A few comments from me
A horse that hasn't been taught to give to pressure using a release as a reward will most always pull away from the pressure to try to escape it because that's their natural reaction. The end of a lunge line is not the place to teach a horse to give to pressure
IMO rope halters and bridles bitless or bitted are not the right thing to train a horse to lunge in. You need either a proper lunging cavesson or a snug fitting leather halter (headcollar as we call them in the UK)
For a horse that's just learning and acting up like this one I would begin by walking him around the lunge area at my side and have him walk trot and halt to verbal commands gradually increasing my distance from him as he responds to what I'm asking him to do until he was moving around me while I stood in the centre
He also needs to learn that the whip is not a weapon and that the whip and your verbal & body language is there to ask him to go forwards, eventually around you and not away from you


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I have never heard of a rope halter with a stud chain.. Isn't a rope halter already the same concept as a stud chain?


Food for thought.


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## aharlov (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow, I somehow missed ALL of these replies. I never got any emails for some reason! I thought no one ever replied!

Thank you all for all the information, super helpful. I haven't even finished reading through all of them! 

For what's it's worth - I have never lunged with a bit, but when I have asked about the pulling before, some suggestions included using a bit. 
Thanks!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You can lunge with or without a bit, but I would not look at the bit as a solution to the pulling.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

The horse may want to jsut get wider so he has more room to go around and higher speeds. It is very difficult for horses to lope in small circles.

In a round pen they can have more freedom and go out or come in slightly more to their benefit.
My horse does the same thing, and all I do is just shake the leadrope slightly and he gets better.
In the round pen he is about a foot away from the edge of the round pen, and when I ask him up he moves out a little more.


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