# What Are Your Thoughts On Swirls?



## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

This is my lass with her two. 

:apple:


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Cute! Are there supposed to be 'thoughts' about these? I am in ignorance.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Read this http://foxpointfarm.com/Swirlology.html I'm still reading


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

Avna said:


> Cute! Are there supposed to be 'thoughts' about these? I am in ignorance.



Apparently yes. But it's possibly an old wives tale.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

My thoughts are this...Some of the hair goes this way and some of the hair goes that way.


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

Dustbunny said:


> My thoughts are this...Some of the hair goes this way and some of the hair goes that way.



👍 like it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

The theory is a highly study trend that usually tells you about a horse's personality as those whorls develop at the same time as the brain. 
Here is a very good article about it, the end of the article goes through the different whorl locations and how it can translate into your horse's behavior
Whorlology - Horsemanship Journal


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I kind of lean to the thought that Whorlology or Swirlology and Phrenology (studying the bumps on one's head) are kind of in the same school, fun to learn and practice on but not so sure they're terribly valid. Could be wrong though!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

My oldest daughter has two whorls tight together high on the back of her head, causes all sorts of fun for parting her hair... But she is also my most difficult child as she gets tunnel vision focus and is hard to switch tasks with. All my other kids have a normal centered single whorl. 

Here is a filly with 3 whorls on her face:








Same filly as a 3 year old, second ride and first time riding in the arena (first ride was in a round pen). 




Personality wise, pocket pony, loves and adores people every day, not a mean bone in her body, even as a filly the thought of playing with people never occurred so there was never a need to scold her about proper ettitique to people). She is a fast learner, picks up concepts very quickly, remembers what she was taught, really tries her heart out. Under saddle, a complete pleasure, loves every minute and as rides progressed, she really loved the faster speeds which was just fine as she also had push button brakes. 

Not sure how well her whorl patterns dictated her personality but her new owner is over the moon happy with her 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Linda Tellington-Jones did extensive studies on swirls and other facial features some time ago. There is a book, can't remember the title tho, by her about it. I went and checked out my horses and must say, it came out pretty spot-on. Since then I look for these features in horses I meet and can usually tell what's infront of me, character-wise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Generally the trouble with this kind of stuff is that it is nothing but anecdotes. For it to be trustworthy, there would need to be study which involves the scientific method. 

No matter how famous a name or how great a horseman espouses this theory, it means very little to me unless I see the results of a real experiment. For example, collect photographs of 10,000 horse foreheads, each with the owner filling out a standardized questionnaire about personality, ability, etc. Then crunch the data to see if there is any kind of correlation. 

See, I've lived in Santa Cruz California for 45 years, and people here believe in every whacko woo woo that comes down the pike. Anything that has the word 'energy' which cannot be reduced to kcals makes me wary. 

I am no scientist. Just cynical.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't know much about it either, but most of the horse people I have dealt with in the past, say that is one of the only things they believe true about how a horse can be is swirlology.. so I am interested in it.. I want to take a pic of my boy's tomorrow when I go out there and see what it looks like and what it says about my horse


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

To me, reading whorls is about the same as reading your horoscope in the local paper. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong.

Horses with one in the middle of their head are supposed to be calm and intelligent. I have 2 that don't fit the profile and 3 that do.

Horses with double swirls are supposed to be difficult and unpredictable. I have one that is and the other is just about as steady as a green horse can be.


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

I get the sciences. The thing with that is it changes.
We know as horse riders that energy and thoughts play a part in our interaction and communication, it can't be measured scientifically, but it's there.
I can't see electricity but I know it's there.
I can't see how my computer connects to WiFi but it's there. Though both can be measured scientifically.

What started the thread was someone saying "oh gosh two Sworls" and it got me thinking would they actually not buy a horse cos of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Irish Cob said:


> I get the sciences. The thing with that is it changes.
> We know as horse riders that energy and thoughts play a part in our interaction and communication, it can't be measured scientifically, but it's there.
> I can't see electricity but I know it's there.
> I can't see how my computer connects to WiFi but it's there. Though both can be measured scientifically.
> ...


No, science doesn't change. What changes is our expansion of knowledge and our correction of what we thought we knew, through better data and better analysis. I didn't say that there is nothing to this swirl thing, only that without a properly set up study, there is no way to know whether there is or there isn't. 

Nor am I saying that horses do not read our moods or understand our intentions. Nor does your lack of understanding of, say, how electrons work, make any difference to whether they work, or to others' understanding. 

In ordinary non-scientific speech, we use the word 'energy' to describe a vast array of phenomena, so vast that it doesn't convey very much. In science, energy has a very specific meaning. When people talk about hair growing in vortices in the womb, creating energy fields, I want to see the science backing this stuff up. Maybe it's there, but until I see a peer-reviewed study published in a reputable scientific journal, I am going to retain my skepticism. 

Skepticism isn't the same as disbelief, you know. I neither believe nor disbelieve. Because the knowledge to do with horses has been passed down through many centuries, from elders to neophytes, there's quite a body of misinformation out there. Wisdom AND misinformation. It's up to us to determine which it is.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Irish Cob said:


> What started the thread was someone saying "oh gosh two Sworls" and it got me thinking would they actually not buy a horse cos of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Irish, I'm the one who said, "I've had a horse with to whorls and I'll never have another.". 

I had one born here and he was the single most difficult colt I've ever dealt with. Because of the swirls? I don't know but I do know he's one of the few horses I've ever sold that I have never missed once he was gone. 

I'll never have another. That's easy enough to avoid, there are LOTS of good horses out there and on the rare occasions when I buy a horse I haven't bred, I'd walk up and see 2 swirls and say, "No thank you.". But, I'll also do that if I walk up and don't like a horses ears, eyes, neck, or tail carriage. That's BEFORE I even look at the working conformation items that can get a horse ruled out before I even try them. 

I am one that INSISTS a horse meet my definition of beautiful or I'm not interested no matter what they do. I cheerfully acknowledge that you can't ride papers, but I won't consider a grade horse ever. You can't ride the head or neck but if they don't meet what I'm looking for, I'm not interested. It makes it hard to find the horse I'm looking for, but it also makes it easy to weed out the ones I'm not. My answer to people who say things like, "Can't ride papers." or "Looks don't matter if they are brilliant at XXX, so the looks don't matter.", is, "No you're wrong. I have to feed it and look at it every day. I also will probably breed the horse I pick to another horse I have picked, so yes, looks matter very much to me.". Since that colt, I've added 2 swirls to the list of instant disqualifiers.


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

What's a graded horse where you are? One that's a registered breed? Graded to me is the stallion or maybe in show jumping grade A?

I didn't have a photo of my lass before I viewed her. What she looked like wasn't important to me, if I felt a connection with her was.
I don't intend to breed.
I didn't notice her sworls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

A grade is a mutt...a horse of mixed breed with no proof of registration to prove parentage/breed. A horse said to be of specific breeding but with no papers is usually considered grade. 
There are numerous registries for horses of mixed breed (like Half Arabian) but with no registration papers a Half Arabian would be considered grade by many...and many owners will get indignant at the idea that their horse is grade...but it still would be. An Arabian with no papers could be in the same boat. After all, who could prove what they are? 
And in case someone thinks I am picking on Arabs, they are my favorite breed. Had 'em for 40+ years. I am just using them as an example.
That is my definition of grade.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

these are my boys


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

"Grade (Some Breed)" is a North American term meaning identifiable as a breed but no papers. My Morgan mare is a "grade Morgan" because if she was ever registrable her papers were lost since her pregnant dam came from an abandoned Morgan herd that was rescued. 

The term is applied to some other livestock as well. 

The word grade, without any breed mentioned, has come to mean any unregistered horse, in the US. "Just a grade" means a nondescript horse of no particular breed.

I don't know where the term came from.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

To further expand what "grade" means, it basically means that there are no registration papers on a horse. Doesn't matter if the horse was registered at one time but the papers were lost by a previous owner, just never registered because the horse's parents were never registered or a horse who is the product of two registered horses of various breeds. Most grade horses in the USA are horses who are purebred or a descended from purebred stock. Any horse who currently has no registration papers is a grade, no matter their breeding, age or ability/training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When I use the term "grade" I mean no papers, not necessarily a recognizable breed. I'm never interested in grade horses because in addition to not being able to be registered, you don't know their history. In some horses the pedigree will be the persuading factor that sways me from "probably not interested" to "hmmmm maybe I'll look again". Going to Arabians as the example, cute chestnut horse, flaxen mane and tail, nice conformation but 14.1 on his tippy toes. Probably not because I prefer bigger horses. What? He's by Nokitov (a Muscat son, one of my favorite Arabians of all time) out of Vallejo Marquessa (a SUPER broodie, foundation broodmare for Tranquility Farms)? SOLD! One of the best horses I've ever bought, if not for his pedigree I would have passed.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

am I the only one who is wondering why a topic about horses head swirls, has turned into a debate topic of grade horses vs papered horses?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The OP asked what "grade" meant as I used it, it means something else to her in the UK. It's not a debate. I mentioned that I would not have another 2 swirl horse and other things that were on my list of instant, walk away now disqualifiers.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

gingerscout said:


> am I the only one who is wondering why a topic about horses head swirls, has turned into a debate topic of grade horses vs papered horses?


All conversations will always have some sort of detour or side conversation ;-) a question was asked and several answered as there is a large difference between "grade" in the USA and "graded" in the UK. Being "graded" is a good thing as they were properly judged by professionals but a "grade" horse is a paperless horse 

Back to whorls, it wouldn't make or break a deal for me. The actual personality of the horse while being worked would, along with a long list of other qualifications which would include having a registered horse. The only reason I would ignore the existence of whether or not a horse is registered is if I was buying a been there done that kids horse who was everything else I needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

I don't mind where the thread goes. I find it interesting learning different things.
Yes graded in the UK is a positive thing. My lass is out of a graded sire.

In the UK an unknown bred horse is possibly known as a Heinz 57,we don't know what breed it is, no papers etc.

To confuse it a little my lass is registered with the coloured society we have in the UK. I guess the states has that as well, but her sire needed to be graded for her to be eligible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Funny, my riding instructor and I were just talking about this the other day. Apparently there was some pretty solid research done by Dr. Temple Grandin on swirls and temperament in cattle and they found a pretty consistent correlation between the two. I dont recall the exact results, but there was something to do with irregular or multiple whorls and less predictable temperament. As we know though, correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. 

My filly has a single whorl in the middle of her forehead and then 4 on her chest. I have no idea what any of it means for her, but it's always fun to look and see if it rings true.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Science and computers. The information you get out depends on the information you put in. Both can be manipulated to give information in a predetermined outcome.


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## Irish Cob (Nov 8, 2015)

Some of the so called worls though are just where the hair changes direction.
If you have ever clipped a horse you will know the worls are there to enable the hair to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Yeah, I kind of take it all with a grain of salt and just kind of a fun thing. I think a lot of it is confirmatory bias - if you already believe it's true and a horse with behavioural problems has several whorls or whorls in the wrong places, you're basically confirming an already preconceived notion.


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