# Is it normal to get told off for riding counter canter?



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

If you had asked the horse to canter on that rein then he should have picked up that lead. Don't let him counter canter unless you asked him too! If he is a 19 yo eventer then my guess is, he knows what he is doing. Maybe you had him bending the wrong way when you asked for canter and the owner didn't like that! It was a bit harsh that the owner would have a go at you like that, I agree. Don't take it to heart, people can be that way sometimes.

My advise is do not lease from this owner if he/ she can be that way and I don't know what you want this horse for but I wouldn't recommend leasing a 19yo TB.

Oh, and welcome to the forum x


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well a counter canter is just a canter on the incorrect lead.

Now while it's good to know how to do it, it's expected that when you ask for him to canter on the correct lead, he canters on the correct lead.. not the wrong lead.

That's like asking your horse to go right and he spins left.

Unless you asked him for left, expect him to go right like you asked.

Also if the owner is mad at you over going on the wrong lead.. that's kind of silly. How long have you been leasing?


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Sorry, what's wrong with leasing a 19-year old TB? 

While the horse should have picked up the lead you asked for, I would still not be keen on leasing a horse from owners who would reprimand me if he didn't. Life is too short for that bollox.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Counter canter is NOT just cantering on the wrong lead, Bend, balance and correctness come into it! You take a horse into a dressage test and canter on the worng leg as opposed to counter canter and you will likely get a 0.

The horse was not countercantering it was cantering on the wrong leg. Had you been riding any of my horses you would have been reprimanded for letting him canter on the wrong leg as opposed to immediatly correcting him


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## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

faye said:


> Counter canter is NOT just cantering on the wrong lead, Bend, balance and correctness come into it! You take a horse into a dressage test and canter on the worng leg as opposed to counter canter and you will likely get a 0.
> 
> The horse was not countercantering it was cantering on the wrong leg. Had you been riding any of my horses you would have been reprimanded for letting him canter on the wrong leg as opposed to immediatly correcting him


Perfect answer.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Well, you asked for one thing, got another and did not correct the horse - why wouldn't the owner say something? Yes, you were riding the horse, but the owner is the one watching the training be undone/done incorrectly on their horse - and the one who is going to have to un-do anything you allow the horse to learn incorrectly.


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## Asterix (May 16, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, I do feel bad now, he was performing it really well and I was so nervous from having to perform in front of the owner that I didn't want to pull up his canter immediately as it took him a while to respond into canter. Guess that's what comes with riding horses your not used to.:-|


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Don't feel bad OP! An owner that leases you a horse shouldn't be so dang critical of you. You're human, they're human.. we make mistakes. It's easy to teach a horse to cue on the correct lead once he knows how. It's all good.. cut yourself some slack.

Riding should be FUN, not something that you feel like you are being judged or about to burst into tears.. that's not what you lease a horse for either. You lease a horse to get more riding in and to understand what horse ownership is like.

No one can ride perfectly, heck.. you should see me ride. I'm all over the place, but I'm having fun and so is my horse which is important 

So you got the wrong lead.. well next time maybe prepare it a little better. Maybe it was a good idea you didn't pull him up right away.. that can make a horse hesitant to canter for you because it expects the rough correction, especially if it's someone new and they weren't clear in their aides.

Nooo worries 



Asterix said:


> Thanks for the replies, I do feel bad now, he was performing it really well and I was so nervous from having to perform in front of the owner that I didn't want to pull up his canter immediately as it took him a while to respond into canter. Guess that's what comes with riding horses your not used to.:-|


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with leasing a 19 year old horse. As for the canter. I think because he did not pick up the correct lead when he was asked to, the proper thing to do would have been to immediately ask for the correct lead. He needs to know the commands and to follow them. As for counter cantering, there is nothing wrong with that when done properly and on purpose....


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Are you sure you are not overeacting to her reprimnding you? She may have been nervous as well with a stranger riding and leasing her horse. If you like the horse I would tell her why you did what you did and really wasn't thinking about it properly


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## Asterix (May 16, 2012)

Thanks, wasn't being negative about him being 19 I think it's fantastic and just what I am looking for  I was putting it out there so you new the horse was experienced and well trained. I'm just worried as I will be leasing ( if the successful applicant) on property that she might keep showing up and telling me off. I love constructive critiscm just not being told off


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Thing is it takes a long time to school a horse, 5 mins to ruin a horse and then years to correct what was damaged if it can be fixed at all!

If it comes to loaning a horse then I am very very careful about who rides the horse and how they ride and ensure that they don't allow bad habits to start.

Personaly I would not be impressed that you thought it was counter canter. Being on the wrong leg means that the horse is bent incorrectly, its balance is wrong and that the rider doesnt know how to ask for canter correctly (as this was an older schooled horse, it is more forgivable in a baby). Counter canter is very different, it means that the horse is bent correctly, the balance is correct, the rider is riding from the correct leg to the correct hand and most importantly it is ASKED for.

You do not have to be harsh about bringing a horse back, Perssonaly I'd let them go forwards a stride, bring them up and back to trot, rebalance the trot, ensure I had correct bend and then ask for canter again.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

faye said:


> You do not have to be harsh about bringing a horse back, Perssonaly I'd let them go forwards a stride, bring them up and back to trot, rebalance the trot, ensure I had correct bend and then ask for canter again.


This. I have a baby who will still pick up the incorrect lead occasionally and while I am not mean at all about it, I have to get him back down to a trot and then re-ask for a canter on the correct lead because if he goes more than one stride with the incorrect lead he will immediately change to the correct lead without me asking for it. That will open a whole new can of worms as when it is time to teach him to counter canter, the last thing I want/need is him swapping leads because he *wants* to.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Another poster in the thread said it was a bad idea to lease a 19-year old TB, which I thought was a bit of a daft assertion. Anyway, I have a 19-year old schoolmistress and if someone picked up the wrong lead on her, I'd just laugh at them in a good natured way, not shout at them and get cranky about it. The horse is 19 and as confirmed in her training as any horse can be. She knows what she's about and what she should be doing. Someone cocking up a canter transition isn't going to ruin her training, which is good because I cock them up all the time. ;-)


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Thing is one transition onto the wrong leg is not going to hurt. Doing it regularly is going to start affecting the horses schooling (yes even in a 19yr old horse) AND not correcting it is also symptomatic of someone who doesnt have the knowlege that it is wrong (also backed up by the fact the OP thought it was counter canter) which whilst it is not a crime of anyform is not what I would expect when letting someone try my very precious older horse!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I would never lease a horse from someone who got all bent out of shape and then told me off about it on my first ride on their horse. It takes time to get used to how the horse is going to respond and many horses who are very well trained will test a new rider just to see what they will do. 

I'd have ridden the horse through all his gaits and any thing special he'd been trained to do before you got on the horse. Then, if you were test riding my horse, I'd have left you alone for 15 or 20 mins to get used to riding the horse and testing his buttons. If I saw you pick up the wrong lead then after you got off, I'd talk to you about wrong lead/right lead/counter canter/balance and so on, but in an instructive way. If you got off the horse and never got the correct lead, I'd climb up on him and work him myself to insure that either you asked incorrectly or to see if he was testing and to show you the correct way to ask him for the lead again. 

Heck, I've ridden experienced horses at National competitions and had them get nervous and blow a lead, it's not the end of the world.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Sure, I'm not saying I wouldn't not correct them, probably with a wee bit of slagging, for getting and keeping the wrong lead. But no need to be a jerk or "reprimand" them for it. 

I wouldn't lease a horse from someone who was. There are plenty of ways to constructively criticize someone's riding without sounding like an ***. I had instructors for years who were really nasty and harsh when they corrected me. It was horrible. When I've taught people to ride, it has been my goal to never be like that.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

As I said, getting the wrong leg is not a major problem, NOT correcting it IS.
God knows I've had plenty of wrong legs even in major competitions (normaly when I get nervous and don't balance the horse properly through the transition) however I have ALWAYS come back to trot and corrected it.

Some of the best instructors I've had have torn my riding apart during the lesson, but my god when you eventualy got praise from them it realy ment something.

Hack one instructor I had had a real go at me when I wouldnt jump I believe her word were "stop snivelling and get your **** over that jump, if you don't then get off the pony and don't come back untill you will"
I jumped the Jump and felt so much better afterwards


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Heck, I've ridden experienced horses at National competitions and had them get nervous and blow a lead, it's not the end of the world.


But I am sure you weren't proud of the horse for Counter Cantering when they blew that lead!

I've seen first-hand the damage a clueless rider can do. My friend leased out her bomb-proof, child-safe gelding for 3 months last Summer. Prior to the lease my 8yr old (who is not at all an experienced rider but has had the basics for proper riding drilled into her) was happily riding him anywhere and everywhere. She could easily pick up a trot and while on a lunge line a canter.

3mo later, OMG he did NOT and I mean did NOT go left. There was my friend with his head pulled all the way to his girth and he was still trying to avoid going left. Walk? Snails slither fast than his walk, trot? oh yeah right... had to re-ask every 3 strides. Cantering? Forget it unless you like to sit bucks. 

She gave him 6mo off and I am attempting to now "fix" him so my kid has a pony to ride again. He's child-safe alright, if the kid wants to stand in the corner and not move! Took me an hour with a crop while a trainer chased behind with a lunge whip to find "first gear" and most of that time was spent dealing with him trying to scrape me off on the wall. 

3mo was all it took to wreck a perfectly good pony. :evil:


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I think the OP was asking if it was normal to be harshly reprimanded for it. I'm not saying I would not correct the horse, or the person riding it. I am saying -- like Dreamcatcher said -- that I would explain the difference between counter canter and plain old wrong lead in a friendly way and these days, wouldn't bother with anyone who would be nasty about it. Nor should the OP, if that sort of treatment upsets her. One long side on the incorrect lead isn't going to ****** up a 19-year old horse's training. I wouldn't get upset about it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Also, bear in mind, that the reason a person would lease a 19 year old horse is to get a 'schoolmaster' because they need a horse who will teach THEM, not the other way around. 

As a potential buyer or leasee, I wouldn't mind having the owner INSTRUCT me but the minute they started in "telling me off", I'd hand them the reins and walk away. Life is much too short to put up with crap like that and riding is supposed to be fun. If the owner made me so nervous I didn't ride well on the test ride, how well do you think I'd be riding after her badgering me for a year? No thanks! 

And this thread and the responses are a real big illustration of why I never leased a horse when I was starting out. I rode the school horses and moved up to the green horses in training until I was ready to buy and start my own horse. I just won't tolerate crap from anyone about my horse, riding or horsemanship, especially when I feel they are being utterly too self-important, DQ, snotty, pedantic and interfering.

My other feeling about owner's leasing out horses is: If you are too cheap, or too broke, to pay the freight on your own, then sell the horse if you can't sit back and let the lessee have some quiet peace and enjoyment while riding your horse. If you feel you MUST be in control and are going to nit pick everything the rider does, either pay your own bills or sell out right so you have no more involvement. No one is going to ride the horse the same way you do and they aren't (generally speaking) going to be as good a rider as you are if they're leasing your 19 y.o. horse. Either lease, shut up and fix issues later or sell out right, but don't make the person hate riding because you're so miserable you can't shut up and let go.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Also, it's not news that if any horse is 100% in care and training of a beginner for months, their training will probably slide. As I don't want that, either, if I were to lease my schoolmistress to a novice, I'd be giving them weekly lessons and it would only be a half-lease so I would still be riding the horse. I would not get angry at the novice for being a novice. It is not whether or not the horse and rider should be corrected that I am disputing with you guys; it's the manner of the correction.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Delfina said:


> But I am sure you weren't proud of the horse for Counter Cantering when they blew that lead!
> 
> :evil:


I was not proud because he blew the lead. However, he tried his heart out for me and right up until the moment he blew the lead, we had the class won. I corrected his lead (he didn't even make 2 strides on the wrong lead) and we finished the class but at that level, it didn't matter, you cannot make that kind of mistake and even place. I was VERY proud of him for the way he conducted himself during the class and his willigness to try to please me. It just wasn't our year that year to go National champ. I did see other riders beating the HELL out of their horses for the mistakes they made in the ring, AFTER they exited the ring. NOT impressed with that mentality and that's the mentality the owner of this lease horse appears to be showing. 

I'll repeat what I said in my other post. If keeping the horse in PRISTINE training is the goal, don't lease it out. If you can't let go and let the rider make her mistakes and fix the horse later, don't lease it out. Anyone who is leasing a well trained 19 y.o. horse is looking for a schoolmaster to help them out while they learn all the ropes without having to worry about a horse who can't or won't do the job for them. If you really want to sell or lease out your horse, throwing fits at the prospective new owner is NOT the way to get the job done.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

thesilverspear said:


> Also, it's not news that if any horse is 100% in care and training of a beginner for months, their training will probably slide. As I don't want that, either, if I were to lease my schoolmistress to a novice, I'd be giving them weekly lessons and it would only be a half-lease so I would still be riding the horse. I would not get angry at the novice for being a novice. It is not whether or not the horse and rider should be corrected that I am disputing with you guys; it's the manner of the correction.


100% Agree


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

The other alternative is to find a decent rider for you decent horse, that is if you give a **** about the horse in question. 

I've loaned out older very well schooled horses before never ever had an issue finding someone I concidered good enough for the ponies (normaly had a queue a mile long absolutly desperate as soon as they heard they were available for loan) and thus in 10 years of loaning 2 ponies i've only ever had 1 issue and that wasnt a schooling issue.

I loaned out ponies not because I can't afford them but because I am now too big to ride 12.2hh and 13hh ponies and the ponies are wasted sitting in a field doing nothing when they could be giving other children pleasure. I didnt sell them because I actualy care about my horses and what happens to them, therefore I retain control over them by not selling them.

Both ponies are now in thier 30's and grazing at home in a field but they both have been on loan in one shape or anouther for the last 10 years. After getting burned by one loanee (pony came back very stressed, colicy and underweight) the ponies were loaned on the condition they stayed on my yard. Never had any shortage of people wanting them even on those conditions.

Also If i were to loan a horse and it went off my yard, why should I pay for shipping? if the loanee wants the pony but cant afford shipping how on earth are they going to afford to keep the pony if something goes wrong (like an unexpected vet bill, hay prices shooting up, livery prices going up etc)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't believe I said anything about shipping, that should be the lessee's cost both to and from their barn if they take the horse for an off site lease. Are you referring to my comment about "paying the freight"? That's American slang for you can't affod the bills or are too cheap to pay them. 

I don't ever lease out a horse, but if I did I'd require it be kept in a full training program at a barn whose trainer I approved. Otherwise, no deal. Since I prefer to move on though, I sell my horses and let them go. I charge enough to hopefully keep them out of trouble though there are no guarantees.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

What does paying for shipping have to do with the price of eggs in China?

You're right, I would not full lease my horse to someone who was not a decent rider. But even if you think the potential leaser isn't knowledgeable enough for your horse, no need to be a jerk. Simply saying -- after the ride -- "I don't think you guys are really the right fit" does the job. 

However, I let friends of varying degrees of competence (usually not very much) have a sit on my schoolmistress. A useless rider once a month or so (sometimes more; sometimes less) hasn't hurt her training. That's why she's a schoolmistress. She can babysit people. I wouldn't want her to do it all the time, but it gives her something else to do and think about between bouts of serious dressage.

Edit: cross post with Dreamcatcher. I sell my horses too; doesn't mean I don't care about them. I didn't even think to take her "paying the freight" comment literally -- LOL. I haven't lost all my American slang yet!


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

OP, what exactly did the owner say? Your original statement is that you were "reprimanded" - and a lot of the responses to your post seem to be coming from an assumption that you were spoken to in an overly harsh way - which may not even be the case. I can reprimand my dogs, children, horses, etc without ever being harsh or "telling them off".


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Something everyone should know. Horse people are crazy. And if there horse is there baby they are way worse then crazy. If you know that then you will realize everything is possible in the horse industry.


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## Amba1027 (Jun 26, 2009)

Can someone please explain the difference between a wrong lead and a counter canter? I know someone said it has to do with bend and balance but I'm still not understanding. 

We were working on counter cantering in my lesson yesterday and we were told to act like we were going to circle to the right so that the horse would pick up the right lead when we were actually tracking left. So our balance and bend was as if we were going right when really we were going left. But I'll often times hear that when you pick up the wrong lead it is because you have the horse bent in the wrong direction. Given all that it seems to me like the only difference between a counter canter and a wrong lead is the rider's intention when the canter was asked for.

So, was I being told the wrong thing in my lesson yesterday? Or is there something else I'm not getting?


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, to answer your post. If I'm going right, intentionally bend my horse to the left, and ask for the canter with my right leg behind the girth, and she picks up the left lead because I wanted her to, it's counter canter. If I intended to pick up the right lead and she picked up the left because she was out of balance in the transition, or if I rode it incorrectly, or if there were ant number of physical or training issues, it's the wrong lead. The horse in counter canter should (hah!) maintain impulsion and balance.


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## DressageDreamer (Feb 29, 2012)

themacpack said:


> OP, what exactly did the owner say? Your original statement is that you were "reprimanded" - and a lot of the responses to your post seem to be coming from an assumption that you were spoken to in an overly harsh way - which may not even be the case. I can reprimand my dogs, children, horses, etc without ever being harsh or "telling them off".


You hit the nail on the head on this. The owner may not have actually been "telling her off," but reprimanding her for allowing the horse to pick up the wrong lead and continue riding. It depends on how much experience the rider has, how much experience she told the owner of the horse she had, and whether or not the owner felt that she was misinformed as well. 

It seems obvious that the OP does not know the difference between a wrong lead and a counter canter as she stated if she wanted to do dressage this would be a good thing. You don't do a counter canter when learning dressage and unless the horse has been trained for more advanced dressage, the horse was not doing a counter canter. We don't know what the horse was trained for though, so there are many questions left to be answered. 

Could the owner have been more tactful? Perhaps. But, again, we don't know what the owner actually said and we don't know how the OP represented herself to the owner as far as her abilties. Just my opinion.


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## Asterix (May 16, 2012)

Thanks for all your comments, I understand I was in the wrong. I am going to shy away into a corner now.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Asterix said:


> Thanks for all your comments, I understand I was in the wrong. I am going to shy away into a corner now.


It's not worth beating yourself up against. Horses are very forgiving and people get WAY too hung up on their horse being perfect.

I'd like to see a rider that doesn't make a single mistake while riding their horse :evil: Telling the OP off for not knowing something I consider advanced.. is really rude. And very hypocritical since we all were not born knowing how to ride or what a roll back or side pass or even a canter was. Everyone used to think "oh that horse is running" till we were told better.

Give the OP a break. Sheesh..


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> It's not worth beating yourself up against. Horses are very forgiving and people get WAY too hung up on their horse being perfect.
> 
> I'd like to see a rider that doesn't make a single mistake while riding their horse :evil: Telling the OP off for not knowing something I consider advanced.. is really rude. And very hypocritical since we all were not born knowing how to ride or what a roll back or side pass or even a canter was. Everyone used to think "oh that horse is running" till we were told better.
> 
> Give the OP a break. Sheesh..


Who is beating up the OP? For all we know, the actual horse owner in question did not even beat up on the OP, because she has not said what was actually said by the horse owner.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

themacpack said:


> Who is beating up the OP? For all we know, the actual horse owner in question did not even beat up on the OP, because she has not said what was actually said by the horse owner.


No one is beating the OP except the OP lol. But it's due to the replies.. via the comment about rudeness, that was just how some of these replies came off to me. And I'm guessing the OP as well because the OP feels they screwed up.. when they only made one little mistake and it's very fixable.


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