# anybody know about this guy?



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'll be back...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

He doesn't get much respect in punchy circles. Does well in Europe and other places where they don't actually work cattle but think they like the notion of cowboying. He just spends too much time showing off rather than sparing his horse like a real buckaroo/vaquero prides themself on doing. Lot of wasted motion. Some thinks he takes shortcuts and focuses more on headset and spins than skills. I suppose pretending to be punchy is part of the schtick. 

But, hey, the dude is making money for himself and gear makers, so what?

Has some darn good music on his website, doesn't he? That Adrian is quite a singer and tells a good story. And I'm a fan of Spanish composed classical guitar.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh boots...you just made my day


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I've never heard anyone say anything about the guy. Good, bad or indifferent.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

I personally like Jeff Sanders. He's got good hands a nice seat and he's quiet. Some things your punchy Buckaroos may forget sometimes. He my not be your gritty, punchy, cowboy, but he's a pretty decent horseman in my opinion..


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

I usually stay out of these, it's not my place to defend them and frankly they don't need it. But Jeff Sanders is a good friend of mine, he is a top hand. He used to team rope and did well at it. But has since switched to full time teaching and training. He is not a "punchy" guy, And would probably smile at that comment. He grew up in California and learned the old traditional ways from some great horsemen. He has studied with some of the best baroque dressage trainers in the world. He is an extremely well rounded horseman, we have had numerous discussions about many aspects of horses and his knowledge is very deep. I have a lot of respect for Jeff, he has helped me more with my horses than most guys that I have ridden with. And the man is incredible with a rope. I know most people could learn a thing or two about cattle from him. 

To say that the people in Europe don't actually work cattle is quite untrue. Most of his clinics are taught in an arena with cattle. Something you don't see many trainers do. I consider him to be the real deal, and have always thought that if I can get my horses as quiet and responsive as Jeff's I will have made it in life. How's that for a plug? :wink:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I personally like Jeff Sanders. He's got good hands a nice seat and he's quiet. Some things your punchy Buckaroos may forget sometimes. He my not be your gritty, punchy, cowboy, but he's a pretty decent horseman in my opinion..


I don't personally have any "punchy Buckaroos," but the hands I know are very good with horses. They don't take shortcuts with a horse's training, and they don't pester a horse for purpose of show. :lol:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

"Punchy" isn't a derogatory term here. But probably doesn't play well (get understood by) to a larger audience. Too regionally specific.

Just like the term "cowboy" has been twisted to mean thoughtless training practices and using a western saddle to merely stay aboard a horse in many areas.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

boots said:


> I don't personally have any "punchy Buckaroos," but the hands I know are very good with horses. They don't take shortcuts with a horse's training, and they don't pester a horse for purpose of show. :lol:


I've seen plenty of buckaroos that think they are pretty punchy that's actually are very heavy handed. I have a pretty good friend that is that way. He's a hell of a cowboy, but is a lacking horseman. I haven't seen any "pestering" in Jeff Sanders methods per say, and I like the fact that he is giving insight to vaquero horsemanship all over the world and promoting it. It's a dying art.. I agree with you that he may spend more time on making a horse look good, and focus a lot on headset, but sometimes that isn't a bad thing. He's promoting himself as a horseman and not as a cowboy. What can I say, us true, working, buckaroos don't have time to promote vaquero horsemanship, especially with calving season  So we leave it up to a guy like him!


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

... As far as the headset goes, there is a reason why he spends time on it. And it has nothing to do with show. But it has everything to do with making a true California Bridle Horse.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Toymanator, where has worked at?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm afraid some people just don't understand the work that goes into that headset..


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Toymanator, where has worked at?


I don't understand your question. 



Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm afraid some people just don't understand the work that goes into that headset..


This is very true, it isn't a forced position like a lot of snaffle bit trainers these days. That headset is a development from a lot of riding in a proper balance. The true bridle horse is an exceptional athlete and has a different posture than other horses. Think of how a ballerina or someone who practices high levels of martial arts carries themselves as they walk around. They have great posture, balance, and move freely. This is very similar to what occurs in a true bridle horse, but it takes hours of development to get to that point. Everyone has a different level of understanding of what a "good horse" is. My level of horse increases with each horse I ride and my expectation of what a good horse is, gets deeper and deeper each year. But I also understand that the horses I enjoy, are not going to be the same as everyone else.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I meant, where has he worked at? 
You said that you were friends with him and his website says he has worked on some ranches, thought maybe you knew.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, I have stewed on this one all day, and I can't take it no more....sorry Fort Fireman I am going to derail your thread.

Doing clinics in Europe doesn't mean sh!t to me. When your handy with a horse and rope, put on a clinic in Winnemucca and see how many guys show up. And I don't mean town guys, I am talking good hands. That would be a sure tell if you have something to offer and not just talking out your ***. Unfortunately a pile of clinicians have found that wearing a wool vest, silk rag and flat hat riding a wade with tapaderos(in the summer) somehow makes you handy and desirable to the clinician followers. Anymore the real good guys I know of refuse to wear the "costume" just for that reason.

I am really getting burned out on clinicians, I tried to get on the band wagon, but I fell off.
What happened to the days if you wanted to learn about cowboying/bridle horses(or whatever you wanted to learn) you went and got a job doing it! 
If you want it bad enough, you'll work for it. But now all you have to do is watch YouTube and pay some wash-out that didn't make a season on some outfit to teach you.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I'm afraid some people just don't understand the work that goes into that headset..


Nope. They sure don't.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Cowchick. I totally agree. I don't care for clinician trainers at all. Although I just like Jeff Sanders in the way he handles himself on a horse. He's alright. There are some that make me wonder. But these days, all these hobby horse owners want clinician trainers now.. I've got the "oh your just a two-bit cow puncher, what do you know about training horses?" quite a few times. Seems these days in the eye of the equine industry, if you not a clinician, you don't know sh!t. Lol. But anyways, sorry for hijacking this thread, I ran onto an ad in the Rocky Mountain Rider today on a guy named Ty Heth. I've heard from him before, but never really looked into him much. I don't know if I really like his hands at all, just by judging the pictures, but wanted to know if anybody had heard much about him, since we are on clinician trainers. Haha taps in the summer,it cracks me up every time I see someone. I personally hate taps, no matter the weather..


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Oh, here's his web page: 
Ty Heth Horsemanship


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I've never heard of that guy (Heth), but, heck, there are clinicians jumping out from behind every tack shed these days. 

On taps: I know a lady in Alberta who grew up ranching in the southwest U.S.  They had a reason for taps. She just kept using them until they got so darn popular. Then she took them off.

I had a friend give me a pair of ugly old bulldog type taps with wool (real wool) lining. They are wonderful for winter riding, but since my winter rides are relatively short I left them at my home place for the hired guy. He puts in a lot longer days out in the winter than I do, and thinks they're why he still has 9 toes (so he says).

I guess the bottom line for me on clinicians needs to be: If they're getting people off the couch, outside, and doing something with their horse, that's better than nothing. And I should say that about everyone of them from Parelli to Richard Caldwell.

I gotta agree with la Chica de Ganado, tho. The best way to learn is to have your paycheck depend on it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Good point about getting folks doing something with their horses. And I think it is great if folks want to learn and do more, everyone should strive to be better- no matter what it is. I guess my foul-up is not the cowboy turned trainer, it's the trainer turned "cowboy".
I know, personally, a couple of guys that are great cowboys went on to apprentice under a trainer and are training for themselves. If I mentioned names, most would say "who???". One actually put on a cow horse deal in Winnemucca(why I used that reference earlier) and a pile of handy guys showed up to take part, it was the who's who. That speaks volumes, in my opinion.
Another guy who is just down the road from me, awesome cowboy, started training horses. Wouldn't know his name if I said it, went over there the other day, all his colts are quiet, easy going but not babied, shows them cattle right away, but not pushed, no yanking and jerking. His aged horses ride super nice and he has won some money.
To look at these guys if you seen them in town or anywhere else, you would never known they could even manage to saddle one. No wool vest and flat hat, no spurs on in Wal-Mart(I seen that today *head desk*) 
These are the guys that have done it but don't use the "buckaroo" image to their advantage, they are just training horses and showing folks how to ride them.





(Taps in the SW, I agree different deal, Cholla needles are nasty! I have used them a couple of times during the winter in nasty weather before I had snow-pacs and trying to stuff wool socks into the biggest boot I had to stay warm or a wet heavy snow from soaking through, they were not very well balanced and I spent all my energy trying to keep my foot shoved into them rather than staying warm! LOL! All that stuff has a time and place


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

I will say this, where you work and what other's think of you does not make you a good horseman. Richard Caldwell was mentioned earlier, Richard has been fairly successful in the NRCHA and has a pretty good following. I called him about a branding last week. He mentioned that he had offered to do clinics and there were only a few people interested in participating. Does this make him a bad horseman? Not in my book, did he go and and work for a bunch of large ranches? Nope, most of what he learned he picked up from Ted Robinson back in the day. 

As for Jeff, I know that he grew up on a ranch and has a ranch currently. He learned from his grandfather who was an incredible horseman in California and then moved to Nevada to work on a ranch. One of the reasons why he loves going over to Europe is because he likes to spend time with the classical baroque masters like Bent Branderup. He is not a guy who puts on a costume and goes to work. In fact I have been at brandings with him and it always impresses me how often he offers to be the ground crew. 

Like I said, I don't need to defend these guys there horses are the ones that do the talking.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Where you work actually can make you a better horseman and cowboy. I know if I ride too much by myself or rope with a group that does not rope as well as me, I get stagnant. If I ride or rope with people better than me, I ride and rope tougher. When you work with guys that are handy, you learn from them and you better yourself.

If I decided to spend my money on learning about ranch roping am I going to go to the team roper dressed like a buckaroo or to the guy that made a living doing it?


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Hell, I just wish I could find someone that did ranch roping around here. It isn't exactly a hot bed of vaquero/ buckaroo horsemanship and ranch ropings. :lol: unfortunately that is why I asked about Jeff. I will have to resort to videos and maybe catching a clinic someday. Of course with another little one on the way that will probably be put on a back burner for sometime.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> If I decided to spend my money on learning about ranch roping am I going to go to the team roper dressed like a buckaroo or to the guy that made a living doing it?


If you are implying that Jeff is a team roper turned buckaroo. You haven't seen him rope :wink: It is quite opposite, he was a buckaroo that turned team roper for a few years. But you could also see him in the Californio's highlight DVD. I also believe there is a video on youtube if you needed further proof. Since it sounds like you will hang him out to dry before ever spend a day with him.

I agree with you that there are a lot of clinicians out there that take a lot of pride in knowing just a bit more than what the participants do. They conduct a clinic and teach what they have heard or seen others do. This is not a horseman in my book. It takes a lot for a person to put themselves out there and offer to teach others about horsemanship and I respect that of anyone. It is up to the participants to decide whether they got there money's worth. It is entertaining to see some of them come across some rank horses and not know what to do. But every horseman has been through that. Buck has stories about some of his early clinics that would make you think otherwise of him. Putting on a clinic doesn't make you any more of a cowboy than someone who shows up to a rodeo wearing a pair of wranglers. But being on a big outfit or owning cattle doesn't necessarily give you my respect either.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Fort fireman said:


> Hell, I just wish I could find someone that did ranch roping around here. It isn't exactly a hot bed of vaquero/ buckaroo horsemanship and ranch ropings. :lol: unfortunately that is why I asked about Jeff. I will have to resort to videos and maybe catching a clinic someday. Of course with another little one on the way that will probably be put on a back burner for sometime.


There are people in NC who do ranch style roping. I wish I could remember where or the name of the group. 

I had reason to travel to the Tryon, NC and Spartanburg, SC area a few years ago and being from Wyoming everyone wanted me to check out their roping. I never made it to an event, but saw some videos on youtube. There were some decent ropers and people who could both work with a horse and had good technique for handling cattle. Granted it was in an arena, but roping at brandings in a corral or rodear is where most start anyway.

I'll look around youtube and see what I can find, but it won't be for a few days.

Heck, if I was the only one on earth wanting to do things that way, I'd give it a shot.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

Fort fireman said:


> Hell, I just wish I could find someone that did ranch roping around here. It isn't exactly a hot bed of vaquero/ buckaroo horsemanship and ranch ropings. :lol: unfortunately that is why I asked about Jeff. I will have to resort to videos and maybe catching a clinic someday. Of course with another little one on the way that will probably be put on a back burner for sometime.


Look up Pat Puckett, him and his wife Deb spend a lot of time on the east coast, and he is one heck of a horseman. 

Have you ever thought about hosting a clinic?


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

boots said:


> There are people in NC who do ranch style roping. I wish I could remember where or the name of the group.
> 
> I had reason to travel to the Tryon, NC and Spartanburg, SC area a few years ago and being from Wyoming everyone wanted me to check out their roping. I never made it to an event, but saw some videos on youtube. There were some decent ropers and people who could both work with a horse and had good technique for handling cattle. Granted it was in an arena, but roping at brandings in a corral or rodear is where most start anyway.
> 
> ...


There was a group that I found awhile back called the southeastern buckaroo assoc. they did stuff in Georgia and Tennessee but I haven't been able to locate there website for some time. Most of the other stuff I find is the team roping type stuff. I did find a lady that does some ranch horse comps up toward Asheville. I just haven't been able to get up with her to get info. I'm still looking around but I do have to admit it has kind of been put on the back burner. I spend most of my time when I'm not at the fire house running daddy day care. It's pretty tough to do that stuff with an 18 month old in the saddle with ya. Especially when she wants to hold the reins for ya. :lol:

As for hosting a clinic? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where to even start that whole deal.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Toymanator said:


> If you are implying that Jeff is a team roper turned buckaroo. You haven't seen him rope :wink: It is quite opposite, he was a buckaroo that turned team roper for a few years. But you could also see him in the Californio's highlight DVD. I also believe there is a video on youtube if you needed further proof. Since it sounds like you will hang him out to dry before ever spend a day with him.
> 
> I agree with you that there are a lot of clinicians out there that take a lot of pride in knowing just a bit more than what the participants do. They conduct a clinic and teach what they have heard or seen others do. This is not a horseman in my book. It takes a lot for a person to put themselves out there and offer to teach others about horsemanship and I respect that of anyone. It is up to the participants to decide whether they got there money's worth. It is entertaining to see some of them come across some rank horses and not know what to do. But every horseman has been through that. Buck has stories about some of his early clinics that would make you think otherwise of him. Putting on a clinic doesn't make you any more of a cowboy than someone who shows up to a rodeo wearing a pair of wranglers. But being on a big outfit or owning cattle doesn't necessarily give you my respect either.



There is more to being a cowboy than just making a horse. Of course making a good horse makes the job easier, but that is not the extent of it, you have to be a cowman first.
You take the cowboying part out of making a bridle horse then what is the point?
People are getting hung-up on the horse end and forgetting why, no sense in promoting the method if you do not use it for what it was intended...it all comes back to the cows.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

It is said "The cowboys used there horses to work the cattle, whereas the vaqueros used the cattle to work there horses."


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> no spurs on in Wal-Mart(I seen that today *head desk*)


What's wrong with that? They look super-cool and everyone thinks you're awesome! :wink:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Toymanator said:


> It is said "The cowboys used there horses to work the cattle, whereas the vaqueros used the cattle to work there horses."


That's a cute saying, but it won't keep you on the payroll of a ranch, because the rest of it goes, "And the rancher paying the bills is gonna bottom line who is better for his rangeland and cows."


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

boots said:


> That's a cute saying, but it won't keep you on the payroll of a ranch, because the rest of it goes, "And the rancher paying the bills is gonna bottom line who is better for his rangeland and cows."


I never said, nor did that quote imply there was a compromise in stockmanship...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Toymanator said:


> I never said, nor did that quote imply there was a compromise in stockmanship...


Cool. Cause I don't care if a hand fancies himself the Easter Bunny. If he doesn't put my grass and cows first, he'll be playing somewhere else.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

boots said:


> Cool. Cause I don't care if a hand fancies himself the Easter Bunny. If he doesn't put my grass and cows first, he'll be playing somewhere else.


The early bridlemen were some of the hardest working cowhands. I have a book about Henry Miller of the Miller and Lux ranch in California. The Miller and Lux Ranch had some pretty incredible hands come out of that outfit. I was rereading the book last week and came upon a story I will paraphrase, Henry Miller visited one of the outfits on his large ranch. The hands were doctoring cattle, he watched as one man flipped a cow (stretched it quickly, making the cow go airborne and land on its side) he immediately fired the man on the spot The cattle baron then insisted that all the cows be laid down correctly if the men wanted to keep there job on his ranch.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

boots said:


> Cool. Cause I don't care if a hand fancies himself the Easter Bunny. If he doesn't put my grass and cows first, he'll be playing somewhere else.


The name of the horse in this video is too ironic not to share...:wink: This is this particular horses second time "in the bridle" she is by no means finished, but if Jeff keeps her around long enough I think she will turn out to be a pretty good "straight up bridle horse"


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

As an aside, boots, the classical music community has had a slobbering love affair with 16th & 17th century guitar music and guitar transcriptions (of other periods) for about a decade, now.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Corporal said:


> As an aside, boots, the classical music community has had a slobbering love affair with 16th & 17th century guitar music and guitar transcriptions (of other periods) for about a decade, now.


:lol: Oh, don't do that to me! I'm a very visual thinker! *slurp*


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Turn on your local classical music station ( or 75 & 76 on Sirius ) and slobber away!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Corporal said:


> Turn on your local classical music station ( or 75 & 76 on Sirius ) and slobber away!


At the risk of highjacking this thread... I was picturing drool in the orchestra pit!

We don't have a classical music station here, except when NPR features it.


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