# Stud Information



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't know anything about the stud but he looks frame Overo. Is your mare confirmed frame negative? I'd know that before breeding because of a chance for a lethal white foal. You don't want to pay a grand for a dead foal. Also I'd ask the owner what genetic diseases he's been tested for I didn't see it mentioned on the stallions site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

As an outsider, I can safely say that that's one good-looking horse. By looking at photos of his progeny he seems to throw nice solid types. But that's about all I can say, because I know next to nothing about breeding or what to look for in studs.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I don't know anything about the stud but he looks frame Overo. Is your mare confirmed frame negative? I'd know that before breeding because of a chance for a lethal white foal. You don't want to pay a grand for a dead foal. Also I'd ask the owner what genetic diseases he's been tested for I didn't see it mentioned on the stallions site.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What does "Frame Overo" exactly mean? I will most definately shoot the owners an email asking if he has any genetic diseases. Also, my filly has not had any tests along the lines of breeding, because I dont plan on breeding her for a while, but I want to learn as much as I can before doing so. On the Studs site, it does say live foal guarantee as well. Thanks for the info!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Tracer said:


> As an outsider, I can safely say that that's one good-looking horse. By looking at photos of his progeny he seems to throw nice solid types. But that's about all I can say, because I know next to nothing about breeding or what to look for in studs.


Isnt he awesome looking? His offspring are all so nicely put together! Your input is greatly appreciated


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Frame is a color pattern that the stallion carries. A horse may also carry this pattern without any visual indicators (in other words be solid). Breeding Frame to Frame has a 25% chance of producing a foal that will live no longer than 72 hours and die in horrible pain from colic like symptoms due to an incomplete digestive track if they are not humanely euthanized. 

The live foal guarantee that they have will not cover lethal foals... as they do stand and nurse...

Are you wanting to breed to him because of his color pattern? If so he only has a 50% chance of passing on the frame overo gene which is causing his patterning and there is no guarantee that the foal would be colored.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

He is a beautiful. You need to educate yourself on Overo lethal white syndrome and frame. Plus the cost of breeding the shots the mare needs. There's A LOT that goes into breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Frame is a color pattern that the stallion carries. A horse may also carry this pattern without any visual indicators (in other words be solid). Breeding Frame to Frame has a 25% chance of producing a foal that will live no longer than 72 hours and die in horrible pain from colic like symptoms due to an incomplete digestive track if they are not humanely euthanized.
> 
> The live foal guarantee that they have will not cover lethal foals... as they do stand and nurse...
> 
> Are you wanting to breed to him because of his color pattern? If so he only has a 50% chance of passing on the frame overo gene which is causing his patterning and there is no guarantee that the foal would be colored.


O wow, Does the possible lethal foal only happen frame overo to frame overo? My filly has not been tested for frame overo, but she is a solid buckskin paint. Both of her parents were tabianos. But like you said above, the frame gene can be carried in a solid paint? I am not wanting to breed to him because of his color, although its very pretty, but I am more concerned about the conformation.
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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> He is a beautiful. You need to educate yourself on Overo lethal white syndrome and frame. Plus the cost of breeding the shots the mare needs. There's A LOT that goes into breeding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have bred before and dealt with mares in foal. My filly was born on my property so I know about breeding, just not about frame overo and such. I am learning, as you can see from the information above instead of simply going out and breeding my filly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok well make sure before breeding her you test her for frame regardless. That way you know for sure if you need to worry about OLWS. And remember even solid horses can carry frame it doesn't always show on their coat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

He is a handsome fella! I agree with the others to have your mare tested first, but if she comes up negative for the gene, I'd say go for it. He's definitely some fiiiineee eye candy!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Ok well make sure before breeding her you test her for frame regardless. That way you know for sure if you need to worry about OLWS. And remember even solid horses can carry frame it doesn't always show on their coat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will most definately get her tested before doing anything. Also, I contacted the owner and he is negitave on all genetic diseases. So if my filly tested negitave as well, there would be no chance of a LW? Thanks so much!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Red Cedar Farm said:


> He is a handsome fella! I agree with the others to have your mare tested first, but if she comes up negative for the gene, I'd say go for it. He's definitely some fiiiineee eye candy!


He's quite the stud!! He caught my eye right away


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

I have been emailing the owners of the stud and asked: If my filly were negitave for carrying the lethal white disease, and the stud is negitave for the lethal white disease, what would the chance of the offspring having the lethal white disease? Her reply was : The foal would be either 50% N/0 and 50% N/N. 

I am not sure what this means. Can somebody clarify for me? When I want to breed my filly I will ask my vet all these questions, but for know I will learn from y'all .


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The stud IS a carrier and is NOT negative for LWO/frame. He IS a carrier. If your mare is positive for frame DO NOT breed to a LWO/frame positive stud.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> The stud IS a carrier and is NOT negative for LWO/frame. He IS a carrier. If your mare is positive for frame DO NOT breed to a LWO/frame positive stud.


Ok, thanks. He's a carrier and if bred to another carrier there would be a chance of a LWO foal. I found a very helpful site with all the needed info. 


LWO - Lethal White Overo Testing

I am going to send in for the testing and I will let you know what my filly is!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Basically what the owner said is her stud which you can tell by pattern is frame and has a 50% chance of passing frame to the colt. And if your mare is frame as well you have a 25% chance of that foal inheriting frame from both parents. Homozygous (to copies of frame from both parents) for frame inherited in a foal =100% death. Heterozygous (one copy) carried in a horse is not deadly but when frame is bred to frame you can end up with frame inherited from both parents getting a lethal foal and which will die shortly after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Frame Overo is the Lethal White gene, if your mare and the stallion are both Frame Overos, you have a 25% chance of a Lethal White foal. LWO - Lethal White Overo Testing

A foal born with LWO has an incomplete digestive system and dies very painfully, usually within the first 72 hrs. I would want both horses tested before I would breed either one of them. 

I currently have a frame mare who is in foal to a frame stallion, the breeding was done by the mare's previous owner, and I am waiting to find out if we dodge the bullet or have to put the foal down when it's born. Not a happy waiting situation. 

Also, what is your mare's HYPP status? Does she have any lines to Impressive? Are you close to the stallion because I see he doesn't offer shipped semen.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Does anybody else think he's a bit bum high? I dunno maybe he's okay?


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## Red Cedar Farm (Dec 19, 2012)

You will never find a horse that has 100% perfect conformation...there will always be something that isn't absolutely on par according to the standards. A horse that is slightly butt high is just a minor "fault" that shouldn't make or break his worth. There are other conformational faults (particularly of the legs) that merit more consideration....unless the horse is so obviously butt high that he looks like he's perpetually walking down the side of a mountain, it's really not worth fretting over. JMO.:wink:


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Basically what the owner said is her stud which you can tell by pattern is frame and has a 50% chance of passing frame to the colt. And if your mare is frame as well you have a 25% chance of that foal inheriting frame from both parents. Homozygous (to copies of frame from both parents) for frame inherited in a foal =100% death. Heterozygous (one copy) carried in a horse is not deadly but when frame is bred to frame you can end up with frame inherited from both parents getting a lethal foal and which will die shortly after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So Frame is not a bad thing, unless you breed to another frame, then it could produce a O/O, correct?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ksmith454 said:


> So Frame is not a bad thing, unless you breed to another frame, then it could produce a O/O, correct?


You have 25% chance of producing O/O, which is lethal.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Frame Overo is the Lethal White gene, if your mare and the stallion are both Frame Overos, you have a 25% chance of a Lethal White foal. LWO - Lethal White Overo Testing
> 
> A foal born with LWO has an incomplete digestive system and dies very painfully, usually within the first 72 hrs. I would want both horses tested before I would breed either one of them.
> 
> ...


I will be praying that your future colt/filly will not have any issues... what a horrible waiting game! 

As far as HYPP, my filly has not been tested for it, but it sounds like a good idea. She does not have an Impressive breeding in her. Here is her pedigree: 
Paisleys Snow Drift Paint

I am fairly close to the stallion, I live about 160 miles away, which I am happy about because I would like to go see the stud in person before making any final decisions.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You have 25% chance of producing O/O, which is lethal.


Ok, Thank You. I am going to have my filly tested and I am hoping she will come out n/n, becuase then I would have 50% n/n, and 50% n/O for her offspring.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

is the stud shown as working cow horse? any of his offspring shown ? Check the local shows etc and see what the reputation for offspring and winnings etc have been.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ksmith454 said:


> I will be praying that your future colt/filly will not have any issues... what a horrible waiting game!
> 
> As far as HYPP, my filly has not been tested for it, but it sounds like a good idea. She does not have an Impressive breeding in her. Here is her pedigree:
> Paisleys Snow Drift Paint
> ...


If she has no lines to Impressive, then she's N/N. He's the only one that the mutation occurred in, at least that they've found. I would check for HERDA, I see a couple lines that go back to Poco Bueno. HERDA - Hereditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia

AQHA offers a genetic disease panel for reduced cost to members, you might check with APHA to see if they do too. "AQHA is now offering a five-panel genetic test for HYPP, PSSM, MH, GBED and HERDA." That way you cover pretty much all of the problems that the stock type horses are known to carry.

I'm praying that this foal dodges the LWO bullet too. The sire is also HYPP N/H, so just how much more genetic soup could they have dumped on one friggin foal? JEEEZ! SO, praying for live and praying for N/N too!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

stevenson said:


> is the stud shown as working cow horse? any of his offspring shown ? Check the local shows etc and see what the reputation for offspring and winnings etc have been.


Yes, he has winnings in Cutting, Reining, Roping, Halter, and Working Cow Horse. Here is a video of lots of his amazing offspring.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just out of curiosity are there any TRUE conformation pictures of this stud anywhere?


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If she has no lines to Impressive, then she's N/N. He's the only one that the mutation occurred in, at least that they've found. I would check for HERDA, I see a couple lines that go back to Poco Bueno. HERDA - Hereditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia
> 
> AQHA offers a genetic disease panel for reduced cost to members, you might check with APHA to see if they do too. "AQHA is now offering a five-panel genetic test for HYPP, PSSM, MH, GBED and HERDA." That way you cover pretty much all of the problems that the stock type horses are known to carry.
> 
> I'm praying that this foal dodges the LWO bullet too. The sire is also HYPP N/H, so just how much more genetic soup could they have dumped on one friggin foal? JEEEZ! SO, praying for live and praying for N/N too!


So, since she has no lines with impressive, would you still recommend the test? It is only $25, so I wouldnt mind doing it. Maybe instead I sould check out HERDA, and get her tested for that? 

I will look into the genetic disease panel. I might just do that and then I can get the whole darn thing figured out, lol! 

The HYPP is too bad! That poor little one! I am hoping your newbie will be a miracle!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Just out of curiosity are there any TRUE conformation pictures of this stud anywhere?


No, I have not found any, I plan on going to look at him in the future, so I will get a live view


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ksmith454 said:


> So, since she has no lines with impressive, would you still recommend the test? It is only $25, so I wouldnt mind doing it. Maybe instead I sould check out HERDA, and get her tested for that?
> 
> I will look into the genetic disease panel. I might just do that and then I can get the whole darn thing figured out, lol!
> 
> The HYPP is too bad! That poor little one! I am hoping your newbie will be a miracle!


If you do the panel they test for the whole enchilada. If you choose to test for individual stuff, I wouldn't bother with the HYPP since she's not Impressive bred. 

Here's the sire of the foal my mare is carrying: Obvious Fancy Gun Paint

As soon as I'm sure the foal will live, I'll pull tail hair. My mare has no lines to Impressive, so not a worry on her side of the equation, but that stallion is carrying enough for 3 horses.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

ksmith454 said:


> So, since she has no lines with impressive, would you still recommend the test? It is only $25, so I wouldnt mind doing it. Maybe instead I sould check out HERDA, and get her tested for that?
> 
> I will look into the genetic disease panel. I might just do that and then I can get the whole darn thing figured out, lol!
> 
> The HYPP is too bad! That poor little one! I am hoping your newbie will be a miracle!


I don't see any lines of impressive so HYPP isn't something you need to worry about but you do have driftwood and poco lines so the bad genetic disease that you need to worry about is HERDA.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If you do the panel they test for the whole enchilada. If you choose to test for individual stuff, I wouldn't bother with the HYPP since she's not Impressive bred.
> 
> Here's the sire of the foal my mare is carrying: Obvious Fancy Gun Paint
> 
> As soon as I'm sure the foal will live, I'll pull tail hair. My mare has no lines to Impressive, so not a worry on her side of the equation, but that stallion is carrying enough for 3 horses.


Oh wow, there are a lot of impressive lines on the studs side. Now I know Poco Bueno started HYPP, and Impressive started OLWS. I am so glad I have you all to hlep me gain knowledge on all theses scary diseases! Thanks so much everyone!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I don't see any lines of impressive so HYPP isn't something you need to worry about but you do have driftwood and poco lines so the bad genetic disease that you need to worry about is HERDA.


I will test for HERDA, and possibly I will try to do the whole disease panel and get the whole shebang!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ksmith454 said:


> Oh wow, there are a lot of impressive lines on the studs side. Now I know Poco Bueno started HYPP, and Impressive started OLWS. I am so glad I have you all to hlep me gain knowledge on all theses scary diseases! Thanks so much everyone!


Oh dear, we've messed something up. Poco Bueno is known for HERDA, Impressive for HYPP, not the other way round. Frame Overo is a type of color pattern and not restricted to any particular blood line.


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Oh dear, we've messed something up. Poco Bueno is known for HERDA, Impressive for HYPP, not the other way round. Frame Overo is a type of color pattern and not restricted to any particular blood line.


Oops! My fault! Poco Bueno=HERDA, Impressive=HYPP. Thanks for the correction


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Also frame is not a gene restricted to paints.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Also frame is not a gene restricted to paints.


True dat! I have a cremello AQHA stallion who is N/N for the HYPP and HERDA stuff, but now will test him before breeding him to Honey Boo Boo the Paint mare who is Frame. ARRRGH.....all this STUFF!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Lol takes a lot to breed safely and correctly people don't realize how much dangerous genetic problems are out there. A lot goes into doing it right. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Also frame is not a gene restricted to paints.


It makes sense because even though your horse may be solid, when looking back to the lines, there may be Poco Bueno, or Impressive that will affect that particular horse. Awesome info!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Well poco and impressive have nothing to do with frame. Frame is a genetic white gene that isn't linked to any particular horse and is in multiple breeds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ksmith454 said:


> It makes sense because even though your horse may be solid, when looking back to the lines, there may be Poco Bueno, or Impressive that will affect that particular horse. Awesome info!





















Bright As a Star Paint










Skip N My Assets Quarter Horse


Here are pics of my stallion, Skip as a yearling, and Honey Boo Boo (Bright As A Star), and their pedigrees. Both have lots of Skipper W breeding, Honey has no Impressive, so is HYPP N/N by default, and Skip has Impressive on Top & Bottom of his pedigree, and he is also N/N. Honey is frame and shows an overo pattern, and Skip is solid, but could carry the frame gene and you'd never know it until you had an LWO baby. LWO has ZERO to do with the pedigree of a horse, can occur in every line and most breeds. So to avoid heartbreak, I'll test Skippy before he's bred to Honey Boo Boo in the spring. If he also carries frame, I will breed Honey to another stallion who doesn't. This will be Skippy's first year to be used as a stallion, so I need to know so I can advise mare owner's responsibly. 

Honey Boo Boo's previous owner, when I asked about her LWO status, told me she hadn't been tested so she didn't know. Later on in the conversation it came out that she had had a LWO foal in the past, with another stallion. Her words were, "She lost a baby to that LWO stuff, but with another stallion not the one she's bred to now. It was all that stallion's fault, not her's." Then she went and bred to another LWO stallion.......I had no choice; I bought the horse. :lol: I just couldn't handle the thought of this woman blithely going on breeding for more LWO foals.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Here is the only almost confirmation pic I can find of him.
Now Taking Bookings For 2013 Breeding Season for sale in Churchill, Nevada :: HorseClicks

I like this stud better I have a mare out of him and she is calm and very easy to train.
DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1769107 - Maximum Miles


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Bright As a Star Paint
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are both gorgeous! That previous owner obviously does not care at all, which is very sad!! At least your mare in foal is in good hands now!


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## ksmith454 (Dec 8, 2012)

cmarie said:


> Here is the only almost confirmation pic I can find of him.
> Now Taking Bookings For 2013 Breeding Season for sale in Churchill, Nevada :: HorseClicks
> 
> I like this stud better I have a mare out of him and she is calm and very easy to train.
> DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1769107 - Maximum Miles


Have you bred to both studs? Max is beautiful but is way too tall for what I am looking for. 15hh is about the maximum for me, but I will still look into him. Thanks.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

CMarie - that's the same pic on the website and a really crappy one to try and use for confo. 



I'm biased and like this guy :rofl: - Smokes Navajo - Home


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I haven't bred to either of them I have a mare out of Max. They are both local studs. 

I was looking to buy a filly out of Smoken a couple of years ago, but I really didn't like the interaction I had with one of his owners, maybe she was having a bad day.

Here's another local stud that is nice I have a mare out of his son.
Beautiful APHA stallion

Smoken is a very nice boy, and they are very lucky to have good trainers for him. 

Good luck on your search, stud shopping is fun.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

stevenson said:


> is the stud shown as working cow horse? any of his offspring shown ? Check the local shows etc and see what the reputation for offspring and winnings etc have been.


I believe most of his offspring are sold out of sate and out of the country.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*cough* It's by a stud and out of a mare.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

^^The Rookie is my mares grandsire.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That's not what I was referring to... you kept saying "out of such and such stud." Offspring are by studs and out of mares.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Your right sorry silly me....very slow on the uptake today.


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