# Frequently laying down?



## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

My 3 year old Gelding has recently been laying down at least a couple times a day. I really started to notice it Friday when I left the house, thought nothing of it til Saturday when he was down twice.

-No change in appetite
-No rolling, sweating, or discomfort
-Normal movements when up (from what I can see at least)
-Overdue for trim (although i go longer in the winter cuz his hooves don't grow)
-Been nice lately, for about the last week... (in the high 30's to mid 40's)
-Gets up when I ask him to

those are kinda the facts that I know.
I did have to put my TB down 2 weeks ago tomorrow (due to liver failure)... they were really attached, could he be depressed? I'm at a loss right now. I'm gonna call the farrier tomorrow and get him out in case it's that simple. Will probably place a call to the vet too just to ask him a few questions about it.

Also, when the vet was out here he did the yearly's on my 2 and pulled coggins... if something were to be virally wrong would it show up on there or would they have to test specifically for something?

Thanks guys!
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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

you have to specifically test for each disease so no, it would not show up on coggins. Since he doesn't seem to be running a fever, and is eating drinking urinating and defecating normally it isn't likely that there is a systemic infection. I would take his temperature and monitor his heart rate as these go up with colic, but it is very possible there are a few things going on. 

He could be sad and depressed, I would be surprised if he wasn't missing his buddy actually. It could also be going through a growth spurt which takes a lot out of them. Also, when you say the vet did yearlies I assume vaccinations were part of that? These can wipe an animal out for a little bit, especially if he is growing/working hard. If the heart rate, temp and food intake and output all seem normal I would give him some time to grieve and adjust but it can't hurt to have a call in to the vet to get their opinion (since he just saw/knows your horse!) Good luck with him, hope he gets to feeling better soon.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Need more info to do more than guess, but yes, painful feet due to lack of trimming or other reasons can definitely put them off their feet.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't see being depressed is the reason. Yes, I'm sure he misses his buddy [as I'm sure you do too, I'm sorry for your loss] but I've never heard of a horse laying down from depression. Usually it's a loss of appetite or energy. You say it's been nice, it's very possible he is enjoying a good nap in the sunshine. I know my horses have. You also have to remember that horses need to lay down to sleep to get that REM sleep. Sleeping while standing isn't enough to keep them going for long.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

In nice temps, I see all the horses lay down at different times in the warm sun! lol. somtimes they look dead.... 
Anyway, I agree with tealamutt


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

This above post reminded me to add he could very possible be moving to stay in the sun, explaining why you see him up and down so often. It's when he doesn't get up for a meal that you should really start to worry.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> You also have to remember that horses need to lay down to sleep to get that REM sleep. Sleeping while standing isn't enough to keep them going for long.


Never heard that one before! How interesting! I didn't know that they *needed* to lie down to sleep regularly. Googled it & in wikipedia under horse_behaviour it says that they need 2-3 hrs of REM sleep every few days to meet minimum requirements. Under Hitting the Hay - equine sleep habits it says... "Typically the adult horse expends approximately 45 minutes in actual REM sleep which usually occurs in nine periods of five minutes each."


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I know it really is fascinating, huh? At least I managed to teach someone something. =D


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

This may be a little off topic but a horses hooves grow in the winter about the same as any other time of year. Your horse still needs regular trims.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> This may be a little off topic but a horses hooves grow in the winter about the same as any other time of year. Your horse still needs regular trims.


Hi kevin, I don't think it necessarily sounds like the horse has a problem at all, but I don't think your comment's OT, considering hoof problems & pain are common & could be a possible prob in this instance.

I agree fully that horses need regular trimming at any time of year. But IME it depends on the horse & his care & management as to how much hooves grow at particular times of the year. For eg. exercise is a big factor of growth, and many horses get a lot less during winter, so growth may slow. Diet is also another consideration, and if nutrients are lacking, growth may slow. Hopefully this is far from a possibility for a 3yo horse, but overall bad health, hoof pathologies & constant, long term shoeing can also inhibit hoof function & growth. Another thing is laminitis - often due to lami/founder it *appears* that a horse's feet - well, more commonly just the toes - don't grow as much.

What I'm getting at is if my horse's feet weren't growing, I'd be wanting to analyse what was wrong in the situation & change it.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Wasn't saying they don't grow, but in him they tend to grow slower in the colder months, so we usually push the trimmings out a week, maybe 2 since in the winter the budget is tight due to lack of hours at work.

but I have the farrier coming out in a bit today, I've been messing with his feet and he seems to have some heat above the hoof... I've been cleaning them out and putting bannixx on them, I'm thinking either thrush since it has been really muddy with the warm weather melting the show or he has an absess coming in *sigh*
The farrier will know for sure today, hopefully what ever it is stops, I may have to get antibiotics for him if it is bad. I freak out when he's down, although he gets up right away.

Thanks for all the info tho! I had read about the REM sleep before.... most people thing horses only sleep standing, I get that question a lot from non horsey people when I tell them I have horses.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I've never heard of thrush getting so bad that your horse has to lay down to relieve the pain. Nor have I ever heard of putting a horse on antibiotics for thrush. The trim will allow more air to get into the area, and a good thrush treatment for a few days will clear it right up. I just highly doubt he's laying down because he has thrush.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kevinshorses said:


> This may be a little off topic but a horses hooves grow in the winter about the same as any other time of year. Your horse still needs regular trims.


Kevin - the hooves do grow slower in the winter. Regular trims can be delayed.

One source: (there are many more)

How a Horse's Hoof Grows - eXtension


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

I had a mare who needed antibiotics for absess, not thrush, I was referring to an absess when i mentioned antibiotics. I had that mare go lame with thrush tho, she layed down when she had the absess.

Anyway, the farrier left, found nothing in his hooves, no abnormal heat, he said the heat i felt was normal and I probably overreacted (which sounds like me) but you can never be too careful. So hooves good other than being a tad long (which i knew). He said that he would guess he's laying down because of the warm weather, finally minimal snow on the ground since its been in the high 40's for a few days.

He also said that me having to put down my TB could have a lot to do with it, it may just be sinking in that Magic is not coming back and he's depressed/sad since he was with Magic for almost 2 years, just them 2 for the most of it. He was pretty much raised by Magic, from a yearling til now.


I'll keep an eye on him and go from there.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Alright, I had the vet out today to do a physical on him.

He's got a bit of a belly ache from what we gather since the only thing that has changed with him is his laying down. All vitals are good, Thank God!

I need to start a good bran mash on him I'm going to get the stuff tomorrow but am not quite sure what to get since I've never done one before, any ideas?


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

my horse has been lying down more recently, i think because of the temperature increase, spring is coming!


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

I wouldn't notice a difference if he wasn't laying down every few hours, he's obviously in some discomfort.

My mare is laying down more too with the weather being nicer just not as much as my gelding.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

So the vet agrees he is in discomfort/has a problem? Said it's likely a bellyache? Why? What made him think that? What does he think the cause is, or how does he propose to find out/treat it? One question that hasn't come up yet is his diet/feed regime, which is the usual cause of colic. Analysing what/how much/how often you feed will be helpful if you would like further advice.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Lets see if I can answer all of your questions:

Yes the vet said he most likely has a belly ache because he is frequently laying down and all vitals are good and strong. And there are no signs of colic. fecal came back clean as well.

Cause unknown so far but he told me to feed bran mashes once a day for 3 days and see if that helps.

As far as feed, he was on a safechoice, alfalfa pellet, 12% all grain sweet feed & pellet mix, with a ratio of 3 to 2 to 1. For hay, they are fed off square bales but they are just about never out, they have continuous hay, it's a alfalfa/grass mix.
My vet had me add some Purina Senior feed to his grain as well as some bran to help clean him out.

Old feeding regime:
-grain 2x day, approx 8:30am & 3:00pm
-hay all day

New feeding regime:
-Bran mash in the morning, 8:30amish
-safechoice, purina senior, bran, applesauce & molasses
-grain 2x day, 3pm & 10pmish
-same as above with the addition of senior feed & some bran
-hay all day

Unfortunately I must feed around my school and work schedule.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Applesauce and molasses are both very high in sugar and aren't going to do your horse any favours.
Bran mash actually has no laxative effects on horses and can actually be quite detrimental to a horse's digestive system.
I can't comment on safechoice or purina senior, have never used either.

I disagree with you vet on the feeding regime. Nothing she has suggested (except for perhaps the removal of grain) is actually good. If you want to add fiber, fat and weight gain to your horse's diet, beet pulp is the best way. Were it my horse, I would keep him on free choice hay and water, add a free choice mineral supplement and then feed him beet pulp twice a day.

No matter how you are altering your feeding regime, please make sure to do it slowly and gradually or you will have a colic on your hands.
Good luck!


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## southerncowgirl93 (Feb 5, 2009)

He may be trying to shed his winter coat. My horses do that when it gets warmer.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

*sigh* ok so taking out the bran, which i will do now since i read many articles that it is not a laxative and isn't good for long periods, I need something to help clean out the system... he seems to be up more today, only saw him down once last night, hasn't been down in the few times i've checked on him today.

I did however slowly change his grain (that I do know :]), well slowly add in the senior feed since he was used to everything else. the applesauce and molasses was just to get him to eat the bran. guess ill only use it as a treat now.

Any suggestions to help "clean" out his intestines?
Oh and I'm not trying to add weight, just fiber to help his system.

All this info has helped, thanks a lot!


What would be a good beet pulp feed?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Buy just plain pelleted beet pulp. Then soak it. I don't like "beet pulp based" feeds, the beet pulp itself is great. Just make sure you are feeding a mineral supplement like Hoffmans.
A good article about beet pulp:
The Horse | Understanding Beet Pulp as an Equine Feed


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

I am lacking a little clarity on "cleaning him out", what exactly do you mean by this- just so I am sure we're on the same page. I use Sandclear monthly on my horse, or did, when he was being fed in a very sandy environment and would frequently snuffle at the ground all day looking for those last bits of hay until his next feeding. I liked it's effects. I agree with Anebel that just plain beet pulp is a good high fiber feed but soak the living heck out of it as it can sometimes make horses choke. However, since you don't want to add weight you should know that beet pulp is a good weight builder too so make sure you're not feeding a lot of it and are also aware that unlike humans who pass fiber undigested and therefore get "cleaned out" by it, horses have hindgut fermentation which allows digestion of fiber and therefore gain nutrition (ergo weight) from it. So all this is sort of where my "what do you mean by cleaning out" question was stemming from...


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Not really sure to be honest, vet said he wanted to push out what was making his tummy hurt, I assumed he meant add fiber to clean out any blockage that could be creating an upset tummy. Vet thinks he may have some problems digesting rough food.

The articles I've read said that horses who choke on beet pulp will usually choke on grain period... he's used to large pellets since I feed him the hay pellets... he shouldn't have a problem but I'm gonna soak it and make a mash out of it since he seems to enjoy them.

Since I was planning on adding it slowly to his grain anyway I won't be feeding him a lot of it, I will keep it down just to be sure I don't throw too much weight on him although I expect some weight gain especially since he is on a Senior feed.

I plan on calling him (the vet) Monday since he wants to monitor Fox's progress and I will see what he has to say about that. The next thing I am thinking is a ulcer... going to start research on that since I had someone bring it up.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

I'm sure I'm probably stating the obvious, but going to state it anyway.... please don't just take our - or anyone else's word for it, but use our advice to do your homework before making up your own mind. Among other sources of learning, I suggest getting onto a good equine nutritionist /service/program/site. I use a mob called FeedXL.com who are fantastic value & very helpful. They have numerous articles about the hows & whys of feeding & effects of grain, etc. They are also there to answer whatever nutrition/diet related questions you may have.

How does the vet know there is something needing to be 'pushed out' that is the cause of 'tummy ache'? What's the difference between tummy ache & colic, in your vet's view? If you do need to expel sand or some such, then psyllum(sp?) husks or supp made from it is apparently good. Can't speak from experience there tho.

I would be removing the sweet feed grain & molasses & applesauce from his diet immediately, as this may well be the cause. Horse's systems can't deal with grain/sugar/starch very well and it often leads to hind gut acidosis - which can cause 'fizziness' &/or 'tummy ache'.... along with laminitis & other good stuff. Unless he's in very hard work, he is not likely to need the extra calories anyway. 

Also the way you feed has a big bearing on the effects too. Horses are designed to eat tiny amounts near constantly. Feeding grain in this manner is a lot safer, if you must feed it, while feeding only twice daily in large meals pretty much ensures that a lot will go through to the hind gut without digestion. Then there is more in the hindgut to cause problems, and yet the horse didn't get much goodness from it either. This goes for whatever you feed.

Agree with whoever said free choice hay & supplemented minerals in some form is pretty much all he needs. It seems that beet pulp is a very popular (new?) feed idea ATM. Heard people say it's great for weight loss, full of goodness, etc. Only now heard someone say it's full of fat & good for weight gain. Altho I haven't looked into it myself, I'm sure I read an article that explained it was a good source of fibre, for horses who may otherwise lack it - eg. race horses fed highly concentrated feed - but has little else in it besides sugar. So, of course, do your homework first, but I wouldn't be rushing out to buy it.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

The article that Anebel posted has great info on beet pulp re: type of fiber content (there are all kinds of fiber!!), sugar, etc. so I won't go into it.

Since the OP mentions ulcers, here is my 2 cents. My guy has ulcers and has been treated for them repeatedly in the past. I have them too so I really feel for horses with these awful lesions. The best thing you can do for a horse with ulcers (and I think that you should have him scoped to get a definite diagnosis) is to treat for 2 weeks with omeprazole (gastroguard for horses, prilosec for us) concurrent with eliminating whatever the source of stress is for the horse. Do not provide high sugar and grain feeds, keep him on hay and suppliments. I have also recently added an ulcer protectant to my guy's feeding regimen. He has stopped grinding his teeth, his poops look nicer, and his gut sounds are far less loud and irregular which was causing me concern. Good luck with your guy and remember that most of all horses crave consistancy so don't change too much at once!!


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

I always do research in case before buying... if I buy before I check, I check before I feed, I keep the receipt... everything is returnable.

everyone keeps bringing up colic... it's NOT colic, at least not at this point, he shows absolutely no signs of colic, and he's colic once before. the difference is the signs he is showing.

If I feed grain 2x a day but he has consistent hay, so how would his grain not be digested? He doesn't wolf his grain down and he doesn't get but 3 quarts and thats upped a quart since i added some senior feed. & The applesauce and molasses is not the cause either since I only fed this after to get him to eat the bran mash the vet wanted. and it was only 1 tbs of molasses & 2 tbs of applesauce.

with these ulcers, he doesn't have any "gut" sounds like tealamutt was talking about. I read up on them and the only symptom he has is the frequent laying down. It out lined the main causes as 
Fasting.
-he's hardly ever without food
Type of feed.
-he's on a fairly small amount of grain & consistent alfalfa/mix hay
Amount of exercise.
-he's worked a few times a week but not for long periods of time since he's not broke.
Medications.
-he never gets anything except what he needs for vet procedures.


tealamutt,
what signs was your boy showing?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Audra0729 said:


> everyone keeps bringing up colic... it's NOT colic, at least not at this point, he shows absolutely no signs of colic, and he's colic once before. the difference is the signs he is showing.


Why I have asked this is because it seems it depends on who you ask as to whether there are differences between 'tummy ache' & 'colic'(which effectively is a general term for 'tummy ache' & gastric probs. So a rose by any other name.... perhaps it's the degree of the problem - ie like saying 'low grade laminitis' vs laminitis or founder, or 'heel sensitivity' vs 'navicular'. 



> If I feed grain 2x a day but he has consistent hay, so how would his grain not be digested? He doesn't wolf his grain down and he doesn't get but 3 quarts


Sorry, don't know what a quart is, but if there is a need to feed something which is difficult to digest such as grain, my nutritionist has suggested 2-4 cups per feed is about as much as she would advise. Another consideration that I think I forgot to mention before is what type of grain & how it's processed. Ie. oats are about the safest, and virtually the only grain that can safely be fed whole. Other grains generally need processing, not just 'cracking' in order to be digestible, and corn is potentially problematic to horses no matter how it comes. Sorry for my faulty memory, but below is basically how I understand how it works...

Firstly the horse only has a small stomach and relatively quick processing, from stomach to small intestine/hind gut. I think the max. time food is in the stomach for is around 15 mins & regardless of time, it empties when about 2/3 full. So larger feeds tend to get pushed through the stomach without being digested well enough there, so this doesn't give much time for the stomach to break down outer coatings of grains. Sugars & starches need to be digested in the stomach rather than small intestines, to give the benefits & to avoid/minimise health risks.

Secondly, much of the digestion of horses is done via bacteria in the hind gut. Can't remember the exact details of how this works(but sure you'll find much better info from any good equine nutritionist), but here's how I understand it... When there is only a regular trickle of something such as high-starch grains coming through, most horses tend to be able to deal with it(they still don't get much goodness from it, but don't tend to have health issues), but when there are large or infrequent quantities, the bacteria can't deal with it, create a heap of lactic acid & die, which effectively is 'hind gut acidosis' and causes pain, wind, laminitis, ulcers, etc.

Again, the above is very likely not 100% right, as it's been a while since I looked into it, but get onto an equine nutritionist or site if you want more info.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

audra- colic is a generic term for "tummy ache". It has been thrown around so much that people think it is a specific disease (usually impaction or twisted gut) but really it just means the horse is in pain and that is from the stomach and or intestinal tract.

My guy showed all the typical ulcer signs- weight loss, grinding teeth, girthy, alternating diarrhea and constipation. He's on ulcerguard from smartpak (way cheap!!) and he is doing a million times better. Also his gut sounds were so loud you could hear them without a stethoscope or even putting your head up to his side. I'd be grooming up by his face and hear GUUUUURRRRGGLE!!! That doesn't happen any more and he is much happier! But he was originally scoped to get the diagnosis and then treated with gastroguard to heal the ulcers before putting him on the preventative.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

Loosie- I will for sure check out that site, I have backed him up in grain, and I am now feeding 3x a day in smaller portions, probably more grain than he needs via your nutritionist but he gets about 9 cups a day, 3 per meal. 1/2 cup beet pulp (which after talking to my vet he agreed that a high fiber diet would be beneficial.) 1 1/2 cup purina senior, for easy digestion, and 1/2 cup safechoice.

I had no idea the grain only stayed in a horses stomach for such a short period of time. So a grain that is easier to digest, like the senior feed, is an easier feed to break down? and a quart is about 1 cup, give or take, at least from my measuring.

tealamutt- see my boy did not show ANY of those signs, and still is not.


Vet ran the bloodwork and found nothing. So we will just keep an eye on him and see if anything else changes, vet says that maybe he just likes laying down? not sure but for now we have done what we can and come up with nothing.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Well, at least you know nothing is very wrong with him, that counts for something!


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

for sure! guess we'll just see, I haven't caught him down in about 2 days now so maybe it was just a small upset somewhere in his gut.

after having to put my Clyde mare down in July '09 and my TB Gelding down end of Feb this year, I was not ready to lose another horse so we took all precautions.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Loosie & Audra 
32 ounces is 4 _cups_ which is 2 pints which is 1 _quart_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Maverick101 said:


> Loosie & Audra
> 32 ounces is 4 _cups_ which is 2 pints which is 1 _quart_


Thanks for that Maverick! Quarter of a gallon is it? Was surprised to hear it was 1 cup, as I thought it was more than a pint.

Another tip re feeding, it's a good idea to weigh food & measure it in weight, not volume, as that's too subjective with a lot of ingredients.


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## Audra0729 (Feb 25, 2009)

hm well then the little scoopy thing I use is more than a cup... think i need to re check that again, dang dog scoops.


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