# What do you guys think



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

What do you guys think of this? To me personally it looks like abuse, but I thought I'd just ask


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

So I didn't watch all of it. But I got right down ****ed off at 5:45 where she says "He's a very nasty horse"

Umm.. Some guy he doesn't know is continuously yanking on his head and pulling it down. You would be ****ed off too. I'm assuming he's doing this to show the horse, "hey this is what's going to happen if you pull back" and I'm also guessing he's pushing on his body to see what the horses reaction is. And it's in the snow, on a slight slope. Dangerous much?

I'm just really unhappy. Could they not put off the farrier for another month and trained this guy a bit. If a horse doesn't understand, what do you expect. Poor horse.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Well, since we didn't see any dangerous behavior to start, I don't know why they began with aggressive methods. It might be that they have seen what the horse does first but the guy holding him in the beginning made it sound like he picks up the front but simply didn't try the back. 

The way this video is shot it is as though they are trying to fight with the horse. I tend to not like fighting. I will if needed but they are setting this horse up to be defensive. Why wouldn't the horse try to kick the guy, he started with aggressive behavior toward the horse the second he met him and kept the pressure on. 

I think there are a lot better ways to get that job done. The way they did it, risked the health of the horse and someone getting kicked but good. Also, by rough handling him, they are not teaching him to trust and be comfortable with handling, they are teaching him people are aggressive. That could end poorly.

There are way too many videos on youtube of people using flooding techniques, I think people think it is the only way to get the job done. I find that very sad. I think this horse would have responded better to some steady, calm, fair ground work. Who wouldn't?


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

I watched all of it. It was very crude, once he started he didn't stop at all. Maybe I'm bleeding heart, but I would have given the horse a break once he held his leg up. Given a good pat and told him he was good. That is a lot for a horse in one session.

I'm REALLY hoping that horse was a rescue and that's why he's never had his feet picked up. There is no excuse for not basic training. Even a pasture puff, basic manners and training need to be done.

I agree with Inga. We don't know. But that guy was really rough.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

I kind of lost it when he tied the horse up and started using the plastic bag on it... It's like he's saying "I don't care if you're scared, I'm the boss and you're not gonna get away. You're gonna take this!"


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

thetempest89 said:


> I agree with Inga. We don't know. But that guy was really rough.


But the horses feet didn't look like he was in immediate need of critical attention. Someone must have trimmed the horse. The only acting out I saw from the horse was when he was being treated aggressively. I suspect they could have gone about this in a much better way without incident. There are many people that jump into the most aggressive/assertive manner of training right away or at the first sign of hesitation on the horses part. Man handling is not my favorite way of getting a job done. Also, the horse is 10... I wonder why they need to suddenly toss shoes on him. I didn't see a mean horse in this video. I saw a horse that didn't know what was expected of him. I always find that sad so... add me to the bleeding heart club.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

This is about as far as I got into the video.

Camera Lady: "Have you ever seen him pull back?"

Owner: "I've never seen him pull back."

Other guy: "I've designed this for horses who pull back."

?????


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## VictoriaMarshall (Dec 30, 2013)

I can't even watch this.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

EliRose said:


> This is about as far as I got into the video.
> 
> Camera Lady: "Have you ever seen him pull back?"
> 
> ...


No kidding. I too thought ??? The horse seemed to be a relatively willing horse based on what was shown. The fact that the horse tried to nail the jerk that was man handling him at that point doesn't show me he is mean. I just find these types of "handlers" to be a bit sickening really. I felt bad for the horse for the most part and when a human is looking at something like that and wondering... "what is he asking the horse to do?" Then how in the world is the horse supposed to know? The owner shouldn't have let anyone like that come and treat their horse in such a manner. He obviously wasn't concerned with doing a good job of shoeing either based on what I saw.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

I think the biggest question in this is, how did any of what he did before he touched his feet even have anything to do with teaching it to accept being shod?


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

I didn't watch much of it because of what happens have been made, but it is obvious the horse is unsettled from the get go of the video. 

Typical "manly man" approach of "You are GOING to listen to me, regardless of how you react." It's obvious being aggressive doesn't fix this problem and his approach only exacerbates the problem.


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

That was supposed to say "What comments have already been made." 

TV + typing = fail.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Hang on Fi said:


> That was supposed to say "What comments have already been made."
> 
> TV + typing = fail.


Lol xD
I also noticed that on that particular video comments are not allowed on youtube


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If you look on youtube, this lady and this hispanic man have several videos on using this halter to teach a horse…______ (fill in the blank) I only watched a couple, and am not a fan. Some allow comments, some do not. Definitely NOT something I would ever use. It teaches the horse nothing, IMO. I watched the trailer loading one-the poor mare was trying with her owner, and probably would have been fine given time. It is also amazing the guy doesn't get himself killed. I am surprised the horse doesn't jump right on top of him. Here is the link. SHe has 14 videos. UGH.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Here is her "product". THey tie the horse so unbelievably tight, it cannot move. Literally. Again-not sure how this teaches the horse ANYTHING.

Sierra Horse Halter « PFL Inc.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> If you look on youtube, this lady and this hispanic man have several videos on using this halter to teach a horse…______ (fill in the blank) I only watched a couple, and am not a fan. Some allow comments, some do not. Definitely NOT something I would ever use. It teaches the horse nothing, IMO. I watched the trailer loading one-the poor mare was trying with her owner, and probably would have been fine given time. It is also amazing the guy doesn't get himself killed. I am surprised the horse doesn't jump right on top of him.



This is my problem with any of these "gimmicks" that people try to sell as the be all and end all of horse fixes. They do not teach the horse anything and do not allow the horse to bond with and learn to trust it's person. I have had horses that I believe I could do most anything with. I didn't force things, I gave them time to understand what I was asking. Once you have that bond, the horse will do anything for you. Trying to force a large animal to do something generally has the opposite effect. 

I wouldn't wish anyone to get killed but... I wish I could have been the horse in the first video with that guy. I wouldn't have missed when I tried to kick at him. Just enough to give him something to think about. Oh, I hope that didn't sound evil.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Inga said:


> This is my problem with any of these "gimmicks" that people try to sell as the be all and end all of horse fixes. They do not teach the horse anything and do not allow the horse to bond with and learn to trust it's person. I have had horses that I believe I could do most anything with. I didn't force things, I gave them time to understand what I was asking. Once you have that bond, the horse will do anything for you. Trying to force a large animal to do something generally has the opposite effect.
> 
> I wouldn't wish anyone to get killed but... I wish I could have been the horse in the first video with that guy. I wouldn't have missed when I tried to kick at him. Just enough to give him something to think about. Oh, I hope that didn't sound evil.


I don't think it's evil at all, at least not your thoughts lol. First time I saw it I wished the horse had kicked him in the head


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## BarrelBunny (Jan 15, 2012)

Nokotaheaven said:


> I don't think it's evil at all, at least not your thoughts lol. First time I saw it *I wished the horse had kicked him in the head*


My thoughts exactly!! :lol:


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## ArdentPaladin (Jan 29, 2013)

Well, I might get some flak for this comment, but I totally understood what he was doing. When I was 12 I got my first horse and -unbeknownst to me- she was a monster when it came to having her feet touched. Her hooves were absolutely awful when we got her so one of the first things we did was have a farrier come out. She beat him up pretty good, but I learned a lot that day. Being a farrier is a dangerous job because it doesn't matter what a horse's manners are like: the hooves still have to be taken care of. Watching the video I saw a highly reactive and un-trained horse acting very similar to mine. Some of you said that the horse was reacting to someone new asking it strange things, but I don't think that's an excuse. The horse obviously had been allowed to get away with behaving in this way. While I wouldn't have gone about it the same way this farrier had, I also understand that for whatever reason these people have not put time into this horse yet, but still expected him to be shod. The farrier has to do what should have been done slowly over the course of several weeks -or months- in a single day. So, yeah, it's not pretty and gentle, but it gets the job done without hurting the horse.

In response to the OP, who was asking how what he was doing applied to shoeing: maybe I can help explain. When he was pushing against the horse he was measuring how it reacted to pressure. In order to shoe it, he would have to be in close vicinity of the animal's hooves, and he needed to know how it would respond. The bag flapping was a safe way to desensitize it to the contact and noise/movement while staying out of range of the hooves. As the person in the video said: "He will kick you." It was the same with him patting the horse all over and jumping up and down around it. The horse needed to be less reactive before he could safely even think about picking up the hooves and shoeing them. He ran the stick down the legs to get the horse used to something touching them, and so that later he could pick the leg up get the hoof without the horse freaking out. Even though I wouldn't use his methods, I can still respect them. He shoes the horse and in the end the animal walked off calmly with neither of them being hurt.

All I can add is that I really hope those people work with that horse a whole lot so that the next trip will be less eventful.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

ArdentPaladin said:


> Well, I might get some flak for this comment, but I totally understood what he was doing. When I was 12 I got my first horse and -unbeknownst to me- she was a monster when it came to having her feet touched. Her hooves were absolutely awful when we got her so one of the first things we did was have a farrier come out. She beat him up pretty good, but I learned a lot that day. Being a farrier is a dangerous job because it doesn't matter what a horse's manners are like: the hooves still have to be taken care of. Watching the video I saw a highly reactive and un-trained horse acting very similar to mine. Some of you said that the horse was reacting to someone new asking it strange things, but I don't think that's an excuse. The horse obviously had been allowed to get away with behaving in this way. While I wouldn't have gone about it the same way this farrier had, I also understand that for whatever reason these people have not put time into this horse yet, but still expected him to be shod. The farrier has to do what should have been done slowly over the course of several weeks -or months- in a single day. So, yeah, it's not pretty and gentle, but it gets the job done without hurting the horse.
> 
> In response to the OP, who was asking how what he was doing applied to shoeing: maybe I can help explain. When he was pushing against the horse he was measuring how it reacted to pressure. In order to shoe it, he would have to be in close vicinity of the animal's hooves, and he needed to know how it would respond. The bag flapping was a safe way to desensitize it to the contact and noise/movement while staying out of range of the hooves. As the person in the video said: "He will kick you." It was the same with him patting the horse all over and jumping up and down around it. The horse needed to be less reactive before he could safely even think about picking up the hooves and shoeing them. He ran the stick down the legs to get the horse used to something touching them, and so that later he could pick the leg up get the hoof without the horse freaking out. Even though I wouldn't use his methods, I can still respect them. He shoes the horse and in the end the animal walked off calmly with neither of them being hurt.
> 
> All I can add is that I really hope those people work with that horse a whole lot so that the next trip will be less eventful.


I have done everything he did in the video but in a way different method. Never once have I had a horse even think about kicking me for it. And to put it into perspective, I'd kick someone too if they tied me to a post and poured a bucket of spiders on me.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

While I didn't watch the whole thing, I saw enough :shock: It seemed as though he was just trying to **** off the horse and get a reaction. The guy said he WOULD pick up his front feet, so why go through everything they did? Start with what they can do and go from there. "Training" like this makes me sick.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

This is not the way you get a horse used to being trimmed or shod. He never gives the horse any release. The guy is constantly nagging him and when the horse stands still he keeps it up. What is the point in tying a horse up then constantly tugging on the rope until it reacts.
Uggh -just makes me angry.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I cannot say that I saw anything abusive. I cannot say it is how I would go about things but, when called in to someone's property to deal with a problem then often methods different to choice have to be used to get anywhere.

The horse was 12 years old, had never had its back feet picked up. From his reaction to kick he was obviously use to getting his own way, compliant when it suited as in standing nicely at the start.

All this man did was to show the horse that no matter what it did the handler was in charge. The horse no longer had its own way. Nothing terrible happened to it, no harm was done, the animal threw a few hissy fits and when that didn't work it was willing to be submissive and have its back feet handled.

Not all horses will go along with the 'softly softly' touch. They will to a point and then rebel often leading to nasty results for the handler.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I didn't watch the entire video, but will admit that the parts that I did watch left me generally confused, all hinging upon the fact that his methods looked unnecessary. I didn't see any aggressive behavior in the parts that I watched, nor did I see a bullheaded horse who was absolutely unwilling to cooperate. So... why the tactics?


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## Ashleysmardigrasgirl (Jun 28, 2012)

My horses would *never* be allowed to be that disrespectful. Though, labeling this abuse is a travesty. 

That horse obviously needs additional training & handling. The farrier is there to do a job, which got done, and the horse & farrier walked away. Neither seemed traumatized by the experience. 

The farrier obviously had handled horses like this before and it's no accident he didn't get hurt. I wouldn't want to get anywhere near that horses feet with it acting the fool to a pat on the side. Furthermore, that horse could have released itself from pressure when it was tied by simply walking forward. 

Sure you could do it a more gentle way but, that isn't the farriers job. I doubt he wants to spend all afternoon working on one clients horse when he probably has a full days worth of clients to get to. That's the horses owners job to make sure the horse can pick up its feet. If anyone is going to call abuse call abuse on the guy who didn't spend more time on his horses behavior and training. 

What's this guy to do? He has just met this horse, and was told he has a nasty tude especially towards his feet. I'm sure the horse didn't get that rep overnight. Should he be expected to put himself in the line of fire just because some yahoo (who clearly doesn't know squat about handling his own horse) says he's good about his front feet being done?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

This is barbaric. My bf may have a lead rope around a leg of a horse wont pick up but its to teach the horse hat he cant put his foot down even if he kicks. Nothing mean no tying like that, and within an hour the horse stops its silliness. And his dad spoils the horses with treats to where the LOVE getting thier hooves done lol. This was the type of cruel "training" my mare was subjected to. And in the snow! really? lets all watch a horse snap its neck...


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Re: The snow. That's exactly what I was thinking! Isn't that a little slick and dangerous for everyone involved? o.o


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Abusive or barbaric? No. 
Could have it been differently? Sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I watched to where they nailed on the first shoe. Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that this horse supposedly has never had it's rear feet picked up let alone trimmed and this guy takes a couple of swipes with his rasp and then nails on the shoe? 

I didn't see abuse but I didn't see a good horse handler either.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Inga you are so right when you said "what is he asking the horse to do?" Then how in the world is the horse supposed to know?" I see "trainers" doing things like this and worse all time while their owners sit idly by and never question. For a long time I had seen men "trainers" do this and thought it was because they are men, now I see women "trainers" acting the same way.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> I watched to where they nailed on the first shoe. Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that this horse supposedly has never had it's rear feet picked up let alone trimmed and this guy takes a couple of swipes with his rasp and then nails on the shoe?
> 
> I didn't see abuse but I didn't see a good horse handler either.


That was part of my point also. The horses feet surely didn't look like a horse who's feet had never been trimmed. IF that is a horse who always behaved poorly, someone likely treated him like this before to "get the job done" and then IF he is still a problem horse then this Tactic was unsuccessful in teaching the horse to behave. 

Chasin Ponies, I once watched a Quarter Horse trainer run a horse forward and then dig the spurs repeatedly into this horses shoulders, jerk on the horses mouth (which was bleeding a lot) and then repeat the exercise. I stood there wondering what in the hell she was trying to teach the horse. The only thing she did teach was to not be comfortable with people. That poor young horse was such a basket case after a few weeks of that trainer who then told the owners that it was too much horse for them and they should dump it and find a better horse. Makes me sick when I see people do stuff like that. I think in her case, she has little knowledge and a lot of aggression.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

For those who wondered what the guy was doing, he was trying to show the horse what the device was and break the horse loose before attempting messing with the feet, not well mind you, but that was what he was trying to do.
Again, not condoning, but that was the attempt.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> For those who wondered what the guy was doing, he was trying to show the horse what the device was and break the horse loose before attempting messing with the feet, not well mind you, but that was what he was trying to do.
> Again, not condoning, but that was the attempt.


Actually what he was trying to do was sell the halter that he designed as a "no pull" halter. As someone else posted, they have several videos out that are like that in an effort to sell a product. Another "short cut" to training product. Why take the time to train a horse when you can just stick a halter on, jerk it a few times and force the horse into something? 

Regardless, I find it a bit sickening how many people think the quick fix, is the only way to deal with horses like that. Again, that horses feet were not in a critical situation that they had to resort to force and then video it to show off their "no pull halter." I guess each to their own. If that guy showed up to my house to deal with one of my horses in that manner, I would have escorted him off the property.


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## sparks879 (Apr 14, 2013)

a horse is a flight or fight animal. they took away the flight so its only option is to fight. what did they expect?


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

What I see is this horse was a little afraid to begin with, but was willing and trying to listen. Then the guy took away the horse's ability to flee, and did things that scared it bad.... "Fight or flight"... This horse wanted flight, but the guy took it away, so he was forced to fight..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

ArdentPaladin said:


> Well, I might get some flak for this comment, but I totally understood what he was doing. When I was 12 I got my first horse and -unbeknownst to me- she was a monster when it came to having her feet touched. Her hooves were absolutely awful when we got her so one of the first things we did was have a farrier come out. She beat him up pretty good, but I learned a lot that day. Being a farrier is a dangerous job because it doesn't matter what a horse's manners are like: the hooves still have to be taken care of. Watching the video I saw a highly reactive and un-trained horse acting very similar to mine. Some of you said that the horse was reacting to someone new asking it strange things, but I don't think that's an excuse. The horse obviously had been allowed to get away with behaving in this way. While I wouldn't have gone about it the same way this farrier had, I also understand that for whatever reason these people have not put time into this horse yet, but still expected him to be shod. The farrier has to do what should have been done slowly over the course of several weeks -or months- in a single day. So, yeah, it's not pretty and gentle, but it gets the job done without hurting the horse.
> 
> In response to the OP, who was asking how what he was doing applied to shoeing: maybe I can help explain. When he was pushing against the horse he was measuring how it reacted to pressure. In order to shoe it, he would have to be in close vicinity of the animal's hooves, and he needed to know how it would respond. The bag flapping was a safe way to desensitize it to the contact and noise/movement while staying out of range of the hooves. As the person in the video said: "He will kick you." It was the same with him patting the horse all over and jumping up and down around it. The horse needed to be less reactive before he could safely even think about picking up the hooves and shoeing them. He ran the stick down the legs to get the horse used to something touching them, and so that later he could pick the leg up get the hoof without the horse freaking out. Even though I wouldn't use his methods, I can still respect them. He shoes the horse and in the end the animal walked off calmly with neither of them being hurt.
> 
> All I can add is that I really hope those people work with that horse a whole lot so that the next trip will be less eventful.


I don't see a reactive or untrained horse. I think that horse is a saint. I bet I could easily have him picking up his feet with no gimmicks in a short amount of time. I'm not saying this because I think I'm anything special. I am saying this because the ONLY problems I see in that video are the ones the morons are creating and I see a horse that really is a saint.

80 bucks for a halter that is a rope halter with a loop around the neck. Wow. At least other gimmicks have some sort of result (aka an actual trainer training the horse and pretending the gimmick does the work)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

ArdentPaladin said:


> The horse needed to be less reactive before he could safely even think about picking up the hooves and shoeing them.


He is making the horse reactive. I guarantee if you took ANY of my horses. Actually, I will change that to ANY horse I know! and you had a stranger come into their face and get all aggressive, then tied them so tightly they could not move and were literally trapped (worse mental torture than anything for a horse) then waved stuff at them and hit them with stuff while they were trapped... they would have shoeing problems... I doubt that horse will willingly let that man near him again.

I have dealt with horses that had farrier issues. You fix them by infinite patience and correcting *when needed* and rewarding when suitable and letting the horse free. If you have a horse with ACTUAL issues, get a vet to sedate and stocks. Don't traumatize them further.

I did not see anything that made me believe this horse has issues (though I'm sure it will after). Maybe the VERY initial thought process (as YOU described) is accurate of desensitizing, but if you want to do that you need to actually do it. Gone wrong you will traumatize the horse.

While I'm not sure if having several grown men hanging on your head so tightly you can't move does not cause physical pain, but I am positive this horse has mental damage from this handling.

I would not let any of those people near any of my animals. This is abuse. Maybe they aren't beating the horse for the sake of it, but it's only one step down. Incorrect "training" and not understanding horse psychology does much more harm than good and this is a good example of that WAYYY crossing the line. The worst part to me is these people are actually marketing themselves as professionals and trying to sell things.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If you are in a situation where you CANNOT progress the animals training, that does happen sometimes. _Regressing_ the horses training (and I'm talking about basic things like trust of humans, or feelings of safety) is never OK unless it's an absolute emergency and there is no other way. This horse was much better _before_ this incident that after I am sure.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> I cannot say that I saw anything abusive. I cannot say it is how I would go about things but, when called in to someone's property to deal with a problem then often methods different to choice have to be used to get anywhere.
> 
> The horse was 12 years old, had never had its back feet picked up. From his reaction to kick he was obviously use to getting his own way, compliant when it suited as in standing nicely at the start.
> 
> ...



I agree that the farrier should not have to be a trainer, and I agree that "softly, softly" is not always the correct approach.

However, I did not see the horse causing any issues until it reacted to the way is was handled. The horse never had a chance to go softly. He was put in a situation where he was physically forced to comply. There are better ways.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

JCnGrace said:


> I watched to where they nailed on the first shoe. Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that this horse supposedly has never had it's rear feet picked up let alone trimmed and this guy takes a couple of swipes with his rasp and then nails on the shoe?
> 
> I didn't see abuse but I didn't see a good horse handler either.


 That was the fasted shoeing job I've ever seen. I bet I could do that..

Regarding the horse releasing the tension by stepping forward. It did not look like that was the case at all to me. The horses head was tied tight between to poles on opposite corners, the horse did not pull the rope tight, the people pulled the rope as tight as possible to prevent the horse moving.

Heh, sorry for all the posts.. I was posting as I read.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I saw nothing I would call abusive or barbaric. Not what i would have done, but not abusive. Beating on him with a club would have been abusive. This was not.

I just saw a spoiled horse. He did not look any different than dozens that I encountered when training for the public. So many of them were headed to the sale (where only the killer buyer would want them), that they did not have much to lose. People get them that spoiled and then expect you to pett them and treat them into behaving. Like I have said on here for years -- you train spoiled horses differently than you train green horses. This IS NOT a green horse.

This is NOT a 'reactive' horse. He is a deliberate 'thinking' spoiled horse. A reactive horse would have thrown himself down and gone into 'self destruct' mode. This was not the first time someone had tried to handle his hind feet. He was determined that it would not happen before these people inherited his problem. I would guess there were different tires and approaches before the camera started rolling. You can bet that the kicking fit at the beginning of the clip was not the first time this horse had aggressively kicked and gotten people to back off. This horse had thoroughly been spoiled and 'in charge' for a long time or his demeanor would have been much more frantic. I did not see a fearful horse for a second.

Like most of the spoiled horses i inherited, something had to happen to break the cycle. The halter they tout is just a variation of a 'draw halter' or 'war bridle'. I use some variation of one all of the time, but most often on spoiled horses.

Commercially, you can buy many of them. One is the 'be Nice' halter. I have two of them. Now that I am not training for the public, they sit for months at a time gathering dust. Monte Roberts has a draw halter on the market he calls a 'Dually Halter'. A lot of people just put a chain through the side rings of a flat halter and tighten or release the pressure according to how the horse is handling.

I use a lip chain or lip string most of the time when i want a horse to learn quickly that resistance is uncomfortable and release can be achieved by 'giving himself slack'. Most horses learn this in less than 5 minutes if the handler has good timing and good release. I can get almost any horse in a trailer in a few minute using this technique including horses that have been impossible to load for 10 or more years.

The handlers, in this case, got the job done, but they were both crude with their use of the draw halter and used far too much pressure and far too little release. It could have been done with a lot more finesse and would not have taken any longer --- probably less time.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> I agree that the farrier should not have to be a trainer, and I agree that "softly, softly" is not always the correct approach.
> 
> However, I did not see the horse causing any issues until it reacted to the way is was handled. The horse never had a chance to go softly. He was put in a situation where he was physically forced to comply. There are better ways.


I agree there are better ways and as you said in other posts, sometimes the softly softly doesn't work.

I once had a 5 yr old TB mare come to me for breaking. All she had ever had done to her was to have a halter on when she was a yearling, never taught to lead, just to have the halter on.

As a yearling she had been caught in wire and all they could do was throw powder onto the wounds. 
I spent hours trying to get her to allow me to handle her legs but brother, she could kick the eye out of a fly. In the end we had to rope her and being the horse she was, she fought every inch of the way even though she was doped. 
We got her done, she had all four trimmed, never taken so long to trim a horse and three farriers were there. Horse was in a sweat, one farrier had a dislocated shoulder, another sported a good bruise from a front foot.
Funny and surprising thing was that the mare was willing to pick up all four feet the next day and was as good as gold when it came to shoeing.

I will add that this was a long time ago, way before they had good tranquillisers.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Inga said:


> Well, since we didn't see any dangerous behavior to start, I don't know why they began with aggressive methods. It might be that they have seen what the horse does first but the guy holding him in the beginning made it sound like he picks up the front but simply didn't try the back.


Were you even watching the same video I was? That horse was attacking people with the pure intention of kicking the poo out of them! 



> The way this video is shot it is as though they are trying to fight with the horse. I tend to not like fighting. I will if needed but they are setting this horse up to be defensive. Why wouldn't the horse try to kick the guy, he started with aggressive behavior toward the horse the second he met him and kept the pressure on.


They weren't fighting for the fun of it. That horse was insanely dominant and dangerous. He needed to be shown he was NOT the top dog, here. In an aggressive horse like this, often the only thing they will respect is an animal who can put him in his place. 



> I think there are a lot better ways to get that job done. The way they did it, risked the health of the horse and someone getting kicked but good. Also, by rough handling him, they are not teaching him to trust and be comfortable with handling, they are teaching him people are aggressive. That could end poorly.


They did what they had to do to train a horse who should never have been able to go 12 years doing this kind of silliness. I blame his owners for that. 



> There are way too many videos on youtube of people using flooding techniques, I think people think it is the only way to get the job done. I find that very sad. I think this horse would have responded better to some steady, calm, fair ground work. Who wouldn't?



Sorry, but hugs and kisses would not have had the same results here. At 6:30 we see a horse with the pressure released who has accepted the situation. His ears show he has become more relaxed and compliant. He has accepted that he is not the dominant animal here and is willing to comply.

Personally, I know people who would have sent a horse that was purposely aiming at seriously hurting people to the killer auction. This man was tough, when needed, but also calm and gentle when the horse allowed him to be.

Bottom line, I would never have to go to these lengths, because no horse I would have brought along would have gotton that way to begin with. 

I was sad that it had become necessary for the horse to be treated that way, but I will NOT bash this farrier for doing what needed to be done. The horse will be a better horse all around accepting that humans are the boss.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I watched about 20 min. of the video, I agree with you all that said, not "abusive" BUT, it seemed to me that this "halter" was used more as a twitch, I didn't see very much release. I saw a lot of pushing the hose to react so the "trainer/farrier" could show the horse it couldn't win. There was a time that I trained horses by picking fights with the horse to show them I was the boss and they couldn't win. 
I also have been in this guys place, as a farrier, I don't have time to "train" your horse, however I can put your horse into submission and get the job done. But will your horse be better after that.....? it will have its shoes on or it'll be trimmed. 
Do you have to get extreme with extreme problems? yes
Did the video show us a horse with extreme problems? Maybe there were some possible signs.
Has this guy had some success with this method? It looks like it he got the shoes on.
Should you do this to your horse? Not for me to say.
Is this a method I will look into adding to my tool box? No
Is this a method I would suggest to someone to try? No


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> Were you even watching the same video I was? That horse was attacking people with the pure intention of kicking the poo out of them!
> 
> 
> 
> .


Yes, I saw the horse misbehave AFTER it was manhandled by the guy. I did not see anything to warrant that handling from the guy to start. I have no problem with anyone "getting the job done" on a horse that has issues but I think that the horse should be given a fair chance at calm training FIRST. This didn't happen in this situation.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Ok -so I watched the video again. I still think the same way. 
Although I do think it's odd that a finished 12 year old head horse hasn't ever had his feet done. Oh well.
Allison, you are right I would never be in this situation either because my horse would never get to this point. We started messing with the babies feet within the 1st week.
My trimmer would actually refuse to do the work if any horse I had acted like that.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

*Sorry, but hugs and kisses would not have had the same results here.*

Whoever said calm, fair groundwork = hugs and kisses?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not a horse trainer, but I have a horse who doesn't love to be shod and who tends to fight pressure. And another who doesn't like to have vets around her at all, she's flat out dangerous because of her reactions. So I have dealt with horses that are "scared" or "reactive." Even so, neither of them aims for you ever when trying to get away. Both will fight blind, stupid and hurt you if you happen to get in the way, albeit for difference reasons. Neither will ever intentionally aim for you. 

That is not at all what I saw in this vid. I saw a horse that was aiming to hurt. 

I don't agree with their methods, timing, or degree of pressure right off the bat, but I don't see a scared, reactive horse. I see a dominant, spoiled horse, that knows exactly what it can do to make a human back off.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> I agree there are better ways and as you said in other posts, sometimes the softly softly doesn't work.
> 
> I once had a 5 yr old TB mare come to me for breaking. All she had ever had done to her was to have a halter on when she was a yearling, never taught to lead, just to have the halter on.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. The situation you described definitely sounds like a good example


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> I agree there are better ways and as you said in other posts, sometimes the softly softly doesn't work.
> 
> I once had a 5 yr old TB mare come to me for breaking. All she had ever had done to her was to have a halter on when she was a yearling, never taught to lead, just to have the halter on.
> 
> ...


Tranqs aren't always as an easy of an answer as you would think. My pony has to be tranquilized before the vet gets there, which is interesting in and of itself. She used to rear and be far more dangerous even with me, but she learned the hard way that rearing was NOT ok. Then once the vet gets there we have the fight with the drugged pony to give her more drugs. Then another fight to give her more drugs. Then we get the job done, while the pony can barely stand but is still doing her best to figure out how to fight. She's improved over the three years I've owned her, but I would still not let a vet anywhere near her without her being drugged to the max. I'm just glad I beat the rearing, although I can bet that many people would've watched that correction happen and labeled it abusive.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Tranqs aren't always as an easy of an answer as you would think. My pony has to be tranquilized before the vet gets there, which is interesting in and of itself. She used to rear and be far more dangerous even with me, but she learned the hard way that rearing was NOT ok. Then once the vet gets there we have the fight with the drugged pony to give her more drugs. Then another fight to give her more drugs. Then we get the job done, while the pony can barely stand but is still doing her best to figure out how to fight. She's improved over the three years I've owned her, but I would still not let a vet anywhere near her without her being drugged to the max. I'm just glad I beat the rearing, although I can bet that many people would've watched that correction happen and labeled it abusive.


It's hard to really understand the situation you described without some more background. But yes, some horses will fight off the tranqs. I saw that recently with a horse when we were cleaning an ear wound (all cartilage minimal pain) it wasn't even that bad but we were having so much trouble handling him drugged and twitched we got the vet out to do a thorough hopefully one time cleaning. Drugged, drugged some more, AND twitched, he was throwing us around. It wasn't pain as I said it was we were DOING SOMETHING!!!! to him... Sigh. That horse is a drama queen to the max lol.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Unfortunately I don't have any "hard" background on her, only guesses and to be honest I'm not 100% certain what you are asking for background on. 

When I bought her she was fine and dandy for handling, although somewhat "twitching" and sensitive when you would touch her. Good for riding, although seemed to think that any leg meant go and didn't have the best slow down or whoa button on her. Very willing and forward though. 

Vet showed up for a PPE, pulled out the stethoscope and tried to put it on her heart girth. UP she went. We were pretty surprised as she'd acted a *little* nervous, but nothing to indicate that degree of response. Lots of slow touching and such later, the vet tried to get a temp. As soon as her hand touched the pony's tail, there was a double barrel kick. Thankfully not aimed at the vet or she would've not stayed. That was basically how she reacted with the vet or any type of "vet" handling. She was good for the farrier, thankfully and normal handling. Although you would try to touch her ears and she would first yank her head away and then rear up. A touch on her tail met with lots of clamping and evil looks, but no kicking at me anyways. 

I did a lot of different NH type stuff with her and we definitely made quite a bit of progress with her being handled by ME. However, the vet visits were always the same deal, lots of drugs, broken and bent needles, rearing, stocks, blindfolds, twitches, and trying to stay out of her way while taking care of business. Never once did she actually actively try to hurt anyone, she was just fighting to get you to leave her alone. It wasn't really even fear at this point, she'd just learned somewhere along the line that if she fought hard enough people would stop. Some of it probably had to do with how sensitive she was, maybe she'd fought the first time and it had hurt a lot or had a rough vet the first time around. Either which way, she is not an easy case. 

Now her and I had gotten to the point where I could handle her face, tail, ears, so on and so forth without real issue. She'd give me the stink eye once in awhile, but she well knew I wasn't going to hurt her, but I wasn't going to stop either. Worming was still a nightmare of rearing, shots weren't going to happen, and forget about coming near her with a syringe. One day I was giving her a bath, which she wasn't 100% on yet, I'd been doing it slow and steady since I'd gotten her, but hadn't made a lot of progress. She was still being an absolute git about it. She threw a tantrum while I was trying to hose her off, my niece was hanging out around and in general getting in the way like kids can do, I was at my wits (tempers) end with a soapy pony and a kid I was worried about getting knocked down because she wouldn't stay out of the way. I finally snapped at the niece to go sit her little butt down over there, out the way, and BE QUIET. Put my attention on bathing Miss PITA Pony and as soon as that hose got near her she reared WAY up, my very first reaction was to swing that hose back and NAIL her on the *** as hard as I could. I would've been hard pressed to say whose eye's were bigger, the pony's or the child's. 

She hasn't reared since. Even when I gave her a shot to tranq her for the vet, sure, she danced around like a twit, but didn't even think about lifting those feet off the ground. The vet came and she perked her little self right back up and fought him to not get that extra dose, but those feet didn't leave the ground. Then when it became apparent that her will to fight was not diminished enough and round three of tranqs came around she still fought, but those feet didn't leave the ground. As we were doing her teeth she was still trying to raise that head up and fight it off. She had more drugs than my gelding who outweighs her by 450 pounds, so many that I had to monitor and keep her separated for the next 2 hours before she could stand steady. 

I've owned her for 3 years now and while our progress has been admirable and impressive in many ways, I can't help but wonder if someone who really knew what they were doing could've gotten her little butt all the way through this by now. As it is, I am finally able to take that sigh of relief knowing that if push comes to shove I can get drugs into her, although it's still such a fight if she were truly injured the process of trying to get the drugs into her might push her over the edge.

Even as dangerous as my little twit is, she has NEVER come after a person the way that horse did. Ever.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^^ I was going to say, sounds like a training issue, but sounds like you are slowly making progress.

My dog has always been perfect for doing his nails or any type of handling. After multiple painful leg injuries (don't even get me started, this dog has THE worst luck!!) vet visits, bandage changes, etc he is no longer good about his nails. It started pretty suddenly. Once earlier on I pushed too much and he actually growled at me (this dog is my shadow and idolizes me). I put a towel as a muzzle and got the job done since I was almost done, but he was not happy. Hasn't happened since. He is still really weird about it and we snip one, do some belly rubs, etc, but he has gotten much, much better. I don't really blame him so just go slow and reassure him, he's not trying to be bad. I am the only one who does his nails just because. This sounds like a similar situation gone way way wrong.. and a dog is much easier to handle than a fighting horse!

I even held a horse I know well for the vet the other day and he was a completely different (well, he's an *ss either way but a quiet cooperative one) horse. Or we had a horse that needed sedating to clean a minor injury he wouldn't let us touch, otherwise super quiet horse. A few weeks later a lady (small animal vet) about the same height and general appearance went to ride him, we couldn't figure out what was with him until it clicked  Stupid drama queen "OMG VET!!" once he think you're doing "something" to him he flips.

Obviously you have a ways to go but it does sound like you've made progress, sounds like she is good for you too which is important!


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

That's hard with your dog, but you seem to be making progress with him. When they get hurt a lot, especially in a specific area they can get a little goofy about any sort of handling there. Poor guy! 

Yeah, she is a weird one. She's very standoffish with adult strangers and will "twitch" when they touch her. Me, she will follow me around in the paddock like a little puppy and if my brother or dad are shooting (gunshots totally freak her out) she will try to be right on top of me. Same thing she does to my gelding if I'm not in there. :lol: Apparently I am herd boss in her mind, which is not a bad thing at all. I don't think she was abused, but I think that she somewhere along the line (very early from what I can gather) learned that strange adults mean that something weird is going to happen to you and it might be painful. 

I am always very careful when I go to do something to her that I know she doesn't like, because I want to make 1000% certain that I can finish the job. If she learns that she can back me off with that kind of attitude, it's a step on the path to a horse like the one in the OP. However, if I "win" every time, she moves one step closer to not being a crazy twit about such things. With me anyways! Still haven't figured out how to get her to be ok with random adults doing things to her. :?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> That's hard with your dog, but you seem to be making progress with him. When they get hurt a lot, especially in a specific area they can get a little goofy about any sort of handling there. Poor guy!
> 
> Yeah, she is a weird one. She's very standoffish with adult strangers and will "twitch" when they touch her. Me, she will follow me around in the paddock like a little puppy and if my brother or dad are shooting (gunshots totally freak her out) she will try to be right on top of me. Same thing she does to my gelding if I'm not in there. :lol: Apparently I am herd boss in her mind, which is not a bad thing at all. I don't think she was abused, but I think that she somewhere along the line (very early from what I can gather) learned that strange adults mean that something weird is going to happen to you and it might be painful.
> 
> I am always very careful when I go to do something to her that I know she doesn't like, because I want to make 1000% certain that I can finish the job. If she learns that she can back me off with that kind of attitude, it's a step on the path to a horse like the one in the OP. However, if I "win" every time, she moves one step closer to not being a crazy twit about such things. With me anyways! Still haven't figured out how to get her to be ok with random adults doing things to her. :?




Thanks. The poor thing has had a REALLY rough life. I assure you we do everything we can for him. He is just not meant to be healthy!! SO frustrating! I'm not concerned about it, I just do it and it's no big deal, I just have to go slow and make it "fun".

Once she's completely comfortable with you, you can build off of that. It's awesome she trusts you, that's the most important thing. It's hard with horses when (a lot of the time) you really don't know their history or the "why's" of stuff.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

That's key! One of my very good friends has a dog that was almost untouchable by anyone when she got him, he was spooky as heck. Now, he is amazing. Wonderful, sweet, friendly dog. Unless you threaten her... Then he isn't so nice. :lol:

I don't know that she'll get any more comfortable with me than she already is. I've owned her for a little over three years now and she follows me all over the place when I'm in the paddock. When the guys are shooting and I'm in there she seems to think that I'm going to protect her because she will come try and sit in my lap. It's hilarious when I'm not in there because she'll do the same thing with my gelding (who is not afraid of gunshots) and he will only put up with it for a couple minutes before running her off. Poor girl, her boyfriend isn't very sympathetic. :lol:

I think it'll just be a continuation of what I do now, slow, thoughtful, discipline where required, and not letting her "win" in the sense that she can drive me off with acting like a twit. Every time I get something done with her that doesn't hurt and isn't stressful works further towards breaking that cycle in her head. Worming and thermometers are the next ones up... :?


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

What a complete moron this fool is.

No words are enough, but like to take that plastic bag and stick it where sun doesn't shine.

And her too.

If horse didn't have any major problems before? Darn sure will now.

And you don't do this on snow/ice/slick ground either.

Not surprised comments are disabled.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

You all really really need to go look at the rest of this fool's videos....as they are eye opening.

The "Sierra Horse Halter" she is so proud of? Is nothing but choking a horse down by pulling head almost to chest by the leverage of the ropes on it.

Clipping Ears with the Sierra Horse Halter - YouTube

And yes, everything I am seeing is abuse. I'm not a "oh you wittle horsey" type, but there is NO SENSE IN THIS AT ALL!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That thin rope digging into his neck looks pretty painful...

In an extreme situation doing something like that may be necessary. I see nothing extremely desperate about clipping ears.

Instead of teaching the horse it's ok to have its ears clipped and be comfortable with the clippers and the human (the goal of training) this does the opposite. This is a shortcut for, and a set back to, training. Used forcefully and imo, cruelly, in unnecessary situations.

I hope they are ONLY doing this to market the product (which I completely disagree with, both using it that way and promoting other people use it that way) as opposed to doing this on a regular basis.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Almost all of this woman's videos ARE abusive.

This one? 




This is nothing more than using that halter to choke one down. Noseband is way too low...and he is cranking the head back to neck to cut off air supply.

Watch the rest of her videos to get a feel for how horrific they are.

If you can stomach it that is.

There is not ONE that shows them handling horses with any sense at all.

And horses are frightened for good reason. If this is what they do when cameras are rolling?

Wonder what they do when they aren't filming.

I'd like to tie her head to her chest.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> It's hard to really understand the situation you described without some more background. But yes, some horses will fight off the tranqs. I saw that recently with a horse when we were cleaning an ear wound (all cartilage minimal pain) it wasn't even that bad but we were having so much trouble handling him drugged and twitched we got the vet out to do a thorough hopefully one time cleaning. Drugged, drugged some more, AND twitched, he was throwing us around. It wasn't pain as I said it was we were DOING SOMETHING!!!! to him... Sigh. That horse is a drama queen to the max lol.



If you are going to tranq a horse, it has to be before horse gets upset. Trying to do it after horse is ticked off, is worthless.

Better to go in with horse in Happy Happy Happy mode...drugs work better then.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

They do, but horses can still fight them off quite handily. At least the especially stubborn ones. :lol:


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