# BO is upset with me and I feel is now questioning me. Need your help!



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

What you've said isn't much to go on.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Heres the details.

As you all know, I have only been at this new barn for 11 full days now, (moved Fri Sept 11).

Yes we got off to a bit of a rocky start with him lecturing me on the second day not to graze her any closer than 60ft of any other horse because my horse has to be in quarentine for 3 weeks before joining other horses. So I made the adjustment of only taking her to a certain section on the property.

It also didnt help the cause when I asked him on the very first night if I could put up her nibble net and fill it on my own everynight with half a flake of hay. It took some convincing but he said he was okay with it. Though he would give me the hay and I cant just go into his shed and help myself. Well lets just say that I only filled her net on the first night and havent since. Something just rubbed me the wrong way, I felt it would be best if I didnt ask him every night for hay for her net.
I didnt want to push any buttons especially having just arrived.

More in detail.

He witnessed me last week bring my horse into the barn and teach her to stand tied. I ended up being in there for 3 hours and when I got out, he didnt come across too happy. Said I shouldnt be doing it for that long, shes only 4, do short durations tying but in repetition etc.

There was also one night where I was scene cleaning my horses water container and putting new water in it. I was worried he took offense to it but he said it was fine. I said I dont mind helping out. But apparently some water leaked out from the bottom as I was refilling it because I put the rubber stopper on backwards. It left a big puddle in her paddock and the BO noticed it the next morning and when I went out that night he approached me and said I did it wrong, heres how to do it correctly etc. I appreciated him showing me the right way to do it but he seemed a bit agitated that I was fiddling around with the water container, dumping it bare and refilling it. So now I feel really uneasy about filling my horses water. I cant help it, Im just so used to filling her water and Im a bit paranoid when it comes to water refilling thats all.

Fast forward to this past Sunday when I had my first lesson with my new trainer. The BO wanted to sit in on it to get a better feel for my horse. I should note that the BO is a former trainer himself, according from what Ive been told from the other boarders and the trainer is,......he knows a lot about horsemanship and training.

So he sat in on the lesson, great. He gave me some advice during and after it. Everything was good.

Fast forward to tonight, when I had my 2nd lesson and again he sat it for a bit. My trainer brought her into the roundpen, did some more ground driving and then rode her for 15mins.

The BO watched, observed and asked me:

1) How long did you ride her for before you bought her. I said 15mins.
2) Then he asked how long did the owner ride her for. I said 15mins.
3) Was the last owner the one who trained her. I said yes.

He didnt go more in detail but I told him that I only rode her bareback before buying her (and the owner as well) because the saddle she had was too tight (as she outgrew it) and she didnt have it with her anymore. He said interesting.

There is no doubt that he is questioning me and whether or not this horse is perhaps one he wants on his property, not just in terms of feeding but having worked and trained. Otherwise why else would he ask questions right. 

Now he has higher than normal standards when it comes to what kind of horses are brought onto his property. What training theyve had, where they came from, their background etc. So he has the right to watch and observe my lessons. I truly do believe that he is still a good man, but hes doing this and asking all these questions to look out for my horse. Its probably out of his raw passion for horses.
I just feel he is questioning me and whether or not Im capable taking care of her.

And here it gets even better. After he asked me those 3 questions, he asked me in a stern tone of voice, how much grain Im giving her a day. I said, she was on 1lb from her previous owner and for the first 2 months I had her, I kept her on 1lb per day. But I switched her over from Step feed to Hoffmans and the bag says to feed 1lb per 100kg body weight. So Ive been upping her feed by .25 of a lb every week. Over the past month shes gotten up to 2lbs and that I just started feeding her 2lbs this past Monday, so two days. He says thats WAY TOO MUCH! 

A horse should be getting a max of .075% of their body weight in grain and that is a performance horse. So 2lbs for my horse is way too much since Im not working her right now. 

He said that hes noticed that she has gained a bit of weight since arriving there and that she doesnt need grain and I should get her off it asap. I monitor my horses weight very closely, daily and I personally havent noticed her gain any weight since arriving 11 days ago. Not saying the BO is wrong, but just my opinion. If she has gained weight, its very little and takes a hawk eye to spot it.

He says that hes been noticing me hand grazing her for anywhere from 30-90 mins a day over the past week and says I should either be giving her grass from hand grazing or grain. One of the other but not both. I was a bit bothered by this, it seems he notices every single thing I do while at the barn. Thats great, but I feel he monitors me very closely.

He says that because the hay he feeds is top quality hay, horses dont need grain. That is true that his hay is top grade. He says hes even cut back a bit on a lot of his lesson horses hay intake because the hay is such good quality and the horses dont need as much or theyd get fat.

I tried telling him the reason why I put her on grain and he said its not needed. He and the trainer suggested to get my horse off grain for 1 month then go from there. He was really upset about this when he found out how much grained ive been feeding her.

Over the past 3 months.

2 months: 1lb
1 week: 1.25lb
1 week: 1.5lb
1 week: 1.75lb
2 days: 2lb

Now dont get me wrong, going from my old barn to this new one is a completely different scenario. My old barn was self care, the new one is full care. Its taken me quite a bit of adjusting knowing that I cant do most of the things I was able to do at the old place. At the old place, the BO didnt care. If I want to pull my own hay from the shed, go right ahead. If I want to fill my own water, go right ahead. At the new barn I cant do any of it. I know I need to let the BO do it and trust him (which I do).

At the old barn, the BO would never ask anything about my horse, he didn't care where she came from, her training, my goals etc. Whereas the new BO does, hes the complete opposite cause he cares. But does he care too much to the point of, its none of his business?

So obviously tonight he was pretty upset with me, hes obviously now questioning whether or not this horse is for me, but got visibly upset about the whole grain thing. Im not trying to jump to conclusions with him, (perhaps hes not trying to be a negative burden on my confidence) and maybe hes just doing it to look out for the horse and even myself. Ive only been told incredibly positive things about him as a person and a BO from all the other boarders and I will still stick to that mindset in that he really is as good of a person as everyone else has said.

So after tonights lesson, I didnt feed her any grain.

What should I do from here? He obviously has some not so very nice thoughts about me right now, but it was all unintentional. I totally wasnt expecting this. Im sure hes still a great guy in general and an excellent mentor to learn from, and I hate to think negatively but I really hope Im not going to regret this move to this barn.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I do truly see the night and day difference between the two BO's. The old one just didnt care and cared more for the cheques each month whereas the new one truly does care about the horses on his property. They are complete opposites.

One sat in his house all day watching TV and never checked on the horses while the other spends his entire day outside and constantly checks horses throughout the day.

But I just dont want to get on this guy's bad side and unfortunately after tonight, it looks like I already am.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

What I need to know is...

YES perhaps my horse doesnt need grain. But my main reason for feeding her grain in the first place is that I still have that stuck mentality that a horse will be healthier with a more balanced diet when on grain than one off it. I also have that stuck mentality that a horse should have grain at least after they are worked each time. It helps restore and build muscle tissue and because the Hoffmans is a cold energy feed, it actually keeps the horse more calm, helps with their coat, hoof growth and strength etc. Though the trainer said, more grain would make her hotter when working her but dont think she knew that Hoffmans is cold energy, not hot.

And again, I still believe the minerals in the grain will bring extra nutrition that may be lacking and not found from the hay. Just like how grass has nutrients lacking in hay. And this would explain why I hand graze her everyday, because I want her to get as many nutrients as she can from grass. 

And of course my horse goes crazy for Hoffmans, she just loves grain.

I really need to set the record straight right now as to whether or not my horse should be on Hoffmans rations.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It sounds as if your BO is looking out for your best interests. Just listen to what he has to say, you might learn something.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I agree with your BO that unless your horse is a hard keeper, she doesn't need grain. She's not really working that hard, and even if she was, there are a lot of horses that do just fine without grain. Cold energy or hot energy, it doesn't matter. It's extra calories that she probably doesn't need. If she were a heavily-worked performance horse, okay. But the most she does is get lunged and ridden for 15 minutes every once in a while. 

As far as him asking about her training...I think he's concerned that she's too much horse for you. Generally speaking, green plus green equals black and blue. All the questions you ask and the fact that you don't even know how to saddle a horse properly point to you being green. Your mare is most definitely green. This can be an issue. It's like someone who only speaks English trying to teach someone who only speaks Spanish to speak Russian. It just doesn't work well.

I don't say this to be mean. It's just observations. 

I think your BO's heart is in the right place. He sees a situation that, from the point of his amount of experience, is a potentially dangerous situation. He's concerned about why you bought the horse you did and what will come of this situation. Were I in his shoes, I'd feel the same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

waresbear said:


> It sounds as if your BO is looking out for your best interests. Just listen to what he has to say, you might learn something.


I have little doubt that he's doing this to look out for my best interest and my horse. I have already learned a fair bit off him.

I feel I need to adjust and shape up real quick at this new place or things will get worse and he will kick me out. Obviously the way he runs his place is on tight order, he calls all the shots and monitors all the occurences very closely. 

Will it make me a bit uncomfortable for the next while knowing that when Im hand grazing her, he is watching and knowing how long Ive been doing it for? Yes, but its something I will have to get accustomed to at a full care barn. There is no doubt that he is watching what I do there everyday when I go. I dont have the freedom of the old place, but its something Ill have to get used to.

Im still full of confidence going ahead with my horse and just dont want any possible negative burdens that could bring me down. Not saying the BO is trying to do this (Im sure hes not) but if he doubts my abilities, then it will rub me the wrong way.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Funny that you say you have less freedom at the full care barn than you did at the self care barn. I'm at a full care barn now and I have WAY more freedom than I did at the self care barn I was at before. I think it has less to do with the type of care and more to do with the individual BO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Appreciate the help, let him observe you, and see what he says about it. All that he tells you is going to make you a better horse person. Maybe his bedside manner isn't so cuddly for you, but grin and bear it, it's for your own good. Years later, you will laugh and say "how could I have been so silly?"


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I agree with your BO that unless your horse is a hard keeper, she doesn't need grain. She's not really working that hard, and even if she was, there are a lot of horses that do just fine without grain. Cold energy or hot energy, it doesn't matter. It's extra calories that she probably doesn't need. If she were a heavily-worked performance horse, okay. But the most she does is get lunged and ridden for 15 minutes every once in a while.
> 
> As far as him asking about her training...I think he's concerned that she's too much horse for you. Generally speaking, green plus green equals black and blue. All the questions you ask and the fact that you don't even know how to saddle a horse properly point to you being green. Your mare is most definitely green. This can be an issue. It's like someone who only speaks English trying to teach someone who only speaks Spanish to speak Russian. It just doesn't work well.
> 
> ...


I am green yes, but the good news is that I am continously learning and am a very quick learner. It wasnt long ago, I was just learning to tie a horse or put on a rope halter. And because I have more interest in horsemanship than riding, it would explain why I need practice putting on a saddle and bridle. Now that Ive already spent the last few months on horsemanship and refining what I know, its time I shift over to riding. 

But my trainer gave me some to dos for the next while and that is to put on my horses bridle a few times a day if I can, same with the saddle...to get me practice but also get my horse more used to being tached up again. Cause she was pretty fresh when she rode her tonight, she wasnt used to having her bit in her mouth, her bridle on, a saddle on etc. It will take her some time to get her mindset back to being ridden again. But my trainer is fully confident in me being able to catch on quickly in terms of saddling, bridling etc.

I thought cold energy is a lot better for the horse than hot?

So you dont believe that a horse would have a more balanced and complete diet when on grain?

What if a horse doesnt get all his/her nutrients from their hay alone? 

Why do most people always feed grain after they work their horse? Even if its for 15mins liesure.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

I am sorry to hear that you are getting off to what may be a bad start. I see a lack of communication here on both parties. The quarantine issue, you could have asked about grazing and he could have told you where it would be permitted. The tree hours of training to stand tied was way too long and I side with the BO on that one. What I don't understand is if this is a complete care facility why are you feeding your horse grain? You are not just paying for the use of the facility but also for the expertise of the BO to see that your horse is fed correctly. I would have thought that you would have been asked what your horse has been getting and any changes that he wanted to make would have been discussed before hand. If the hay is top quality he may very well be correct in saying that your horse doesn't need grain. Also the instructions on the feed bags are usually in favor of selling more feed and are certainly not calculated to the needs of individual horses. I understand your position of having come from a self care situation where there is no guidance to something entirely different but I do think the BO is trying to do right by you and if he is experienced as you say there is probably a lot you can learn from him


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> I thought cold energy is a lot better for the horse than hot?
> 
> So you dont believe that a horse would have a more balanced and complete diet when on grain?
> 
> ...


I don't know what "cold" vs "hot" energy is. 

If the hay is decent hay, it is enough.

Horses can get all the nutrients they need from hay.

I don't know that "most people always feed grain after they work their horse." Our ranch horses and many polo horses rarely get grain. And they work quite a bit. 

Some people are just more serious acting than others. I wouldn't take it personally.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> I am green yes, but the good news is that I am continously learning and am a very quick learner. It wasnt long ago, I was just learning to tie a horse or put on a rope halter. And because I have more interest in horsemanship than riding, it would explain why I need practice putting on a saddle and bridle. Now that Ive already spent the last few months on horsemanship and refining what I know, its time I shift over to riding.
> 
> But my trainer gave me some to dos for the next while and that is to put on my horses bridle a few times a day if I can, same with the saddle...to get me practice but also get my horse more used to being tached up again. Cause she was pretty fresh when she rode her tonight, she wasnt used to having her bit in her mouth, her bridle on, a saddle on etc. It will take her some time to get her mindset back to being ridden again. But my trainer is fully confident in me being able to catch on quickly in terms of saddling, bridling etc.
> 
> ...


 Talk to the BO about a ration balancer if you are concerned about anything lacking in the hay. Good quality hay and a ration balancer can actually supply more of the horse's needs than hay and grain. Talk to him but don't make it a debate. You may find that he can redefine some of the knowledge you have about feeding.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Textan49 said:


> I am sorry to hear that you are getting off to what may be a bad start. I see a lack of communication here on both parties. The quarantine issue, you could have asked about grazing and he could have told you where it would be permitted.


Well when I first brought her over, I primarily wanted to get her used to her surroundings so I thought I would walk her around the place and graze in different areas so she can get familiar. Also, she could see other horses and they could see her, so whomever she does end up joining in the field later, they wont be complete strangers. This was my fault entirely. I apologized to the BO.

He clearly did not want me touring my horse and having her get familiar with other horses until the quarentine period is over. The good news is that from what Ive been told from other boarders, he does an amazing job in learning a horses personality and placing them in the best possible situation with other horses. So Im very excited when this does happen with her. I personally would prefer if they could at least fence sniff each other first though.



> The tree hours of training to stand tied was way too long and I side with the BO on that one.


Yes I regret doing it, but the good news is that ever since that night, she has been standing tied a lot better than shes ever been. 



> What I don't understand is if this is a complete care facility why are you feeding your horse grain?


Cause its at an extra cost for them to feed grain and I figure since im already there every night, I can just do it. 

Its a full care barn, but Im still allowed to clean my horses paddock as much as I want. The BO said this was fine. I like to keep her paddock as clean as a whistle.



> You are not just paying for the use of the facility but also for the expertise of the BO to see that your horse is fed correctly.


Yes and Im realizing it hard and fast right now. Just totally not used to it coming from the old barn where no one cared. 

At the old barn, owners wouldnt find out about their injured horse until they went to go see them next. 

At the new barn, you get a phone call right away from the BO himself when a horse gets hurt. If its an emergency, they call and bring in a vet first then the owner. They even made me sign this emergency form paper before boarding here, whereas the old barn didnt have a form for this.

Just by casually observing, in the short time Ive been here so far, the BO here really does take good care of the horses on this place. He is literally out there 18 hours a day whereas the old BO was inside watching tv and smoking, having beers.



> I would have thought that you would have been asked what your horse has been getting and any changes that he wanted to make would have been discussed before hand.


He did ask me what my horse was on before bringing her in. But I think he was upset because he swore that she has gained weight since arriving. if it wasnt for that, i almost gaurentee he wouldnt have asked about her grain. The trainer says he has a real good eye for watching a horses weight even if theyre not his own. Plus afterall, he does get to see my horse more often than I do so he can do more observing.



> If the hay is top quality he may very well be correct in saying that your horse doesn't need grain.


He is very picky about his hay and demands only top grade. He will not settle for hay thats not up to his expectations. He even stocks 3 different kinds to cater to different horses needs. Im glad hes picky about his hay because at the old barn, it was all about cutting costs.



> Also the instructions on the feed bags are usually in favor of selling more feed and are certainly not calculated to the needs of individual horses.


This is EXACTLY what he told me. I explained how it was said on the bag and he said, the feeding directions on the bag are in favour to sell more product. The man was bang on.



> I understand your position of having come from a self care situation where there is no guidance to something entirely different but I do think the BO is trying to do right by you and if he is experienced as you say there is probably a lot you can learn from him


I agree. He is blunt and a no BS person, but sometimes those are the type of people you learn the most from.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Grain should be fed as needed not according to the directions on the pack.

There are lots of varying opinions on grain, there are many people who don't believe in feeding horses grains (such as oats, barley, corn - even though it's not a grain) at all. There are grain free feeds around but they're still full of sugars and processed cereals. 

It's kind of like saying, is it healthier for a human to eat a diet of fresh fruits and vegetables, home made proteins, nuts and seeds? Or is it healthier to eat a chocolate flavoured protein bar from the shops?

Both have nutrients but one is natural, low density and the other is processed and high density. For your everyday life unprocessed is better.

Feeding horses high sugar and high energy feeds can make them hard to handle. If you've got quality hay and grass your horse only needs minimal feeding. If you're really worried about vitamins you should be looking at a supplement not a feed. 

You're at a full care place which means the barn owner has taken in responsibility of certain parts of car. The amount he feeds your horse is based on its condition and what it's fed. If you're feeding high quantities of feed he needs to know about it. Feeding on your own can also cause issues, at full care places horses all eat at the same time, seeing you feeds yours could excite some of them.

Horses don't colic or have digestive issues from hay or grass usually. It's processed feeds that bother them.

I think what your trainer is seeing is that this horse is a bit much for you. And it doesn't matter how quick you learn you are still possibly putting yourself, your horse and others at the faculty in danger.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Pretty much everyone Ive talked to so far, including my trainer has said that hes an asset to the industry. He is handicapped as he only has one leg, other other is prostetic, (walks around with a cane) and would explain why he most likely uses a quad all day. Boarders and people are always chatting it up with him, no matter the time of day or not. He is always educating someone on something, just from my observations. Even my trainer learns from him. 

Im sure he has zero confidence in me though in coming through with my horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First, don't take offense so easily.
I can see his concerns as having merit.
I do see a horse that is too green for you, and one that you bought without really trying her. 15 mins , bareback, by you and the seller each, is just not enough of a try out.
No saddle because she out grew it, sure sounds fishy to me! I have started many three and even two year olds, and rode many of those horses when they were mature. None out grew their saddle
Sorry, but I see that no saddle , as an excuse to not really ride that horse
The horse should have been ridden at all gaits, including loping on both leads, out in the open, or at least in a big arena
Ideallly, you should have tried that horse at intended use. Ie-if buying a trail horse, then try that horse out on a trail
A balanced diet does not mean you have to feed grain
By cool calories, I assume you are not really feeding grain, but some pre mixed pelleted feed, containing fat as the source of calories
I am familiar with Hoffman's minerals, but just feed it free choice, or mixed in soaked beet pulp
A horse does not need additional calories than is supplied in the forage (hay or grass ), unless work load, lactating or growth of a young horse requires additional calories . Excess calories, hot or cool, are stored, same as in people

A balanced diet does require minerals in the right amount and ratio, but that does not require grain
None of my horses are fed grain, even the ones I ride most days

I just went to the Hoffmans site, and you must be feeding the horse ration, which I see, is a high fat feed, and not a 'grain' I see that minerals are also included. 
Thus, do you know if this barn provides a mineral source, as you must have noticed the warning not to feed it, if another supplement is being fed (that includes a source of minerals, esp if both contain selenium

Before you even add a supplement, you have to start with the forage, in order to balance the diet. Forage should be the main part of any horse's diet. Without knowing what is missing, how do you know what , or if anything is needed, to balance that diet?
Certainly can see if he was concerned, if you moved your horse from the quarantine pen, and hand grazed her closer to other horses than is allowed for that quarantine


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A question for you!

Do you sleep at night? I don't think I have ever come across anyone who so so over thinking things. 


As someone who has had horses at livery I have always 'interfered' with owners if they were not doing well with something. It wasn't done to take over a horse but done to try and get them able to enjoy what they were doing rather than getting stressed out, which you seem to do.


You can forever keep moving and get no where, be grateful he is taking an interest in you and your horse.

You have done things the wrong way round. You are obviously a total novice, not knowing how to tack up says this, yet you buy a horse that is both green and of a stressy nature.

Reading and watching videos is fine but will never replace hands on. Majority of training is timing and that is either instinctive or learned. 

Once a horse has been tacked and ridden it doesn't need to 'get use to' the saddle and bridle. It is like you having worn shoes and then going without them for a few months and wearing them again, might. For a few minutes feel strange but soon normal. 

Stick it out. Learn all you can, stop over thinking and learn how to enjoy your horse or sell her and get something older and fully trained.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

You will learn more in five minutes with an experienced trainer working with you then you will in five years off the internet. It's a great resource don't get me wrong but we can't see your horse, how she reacts to things and what generally makes her tick. Nor can we teach you timing which is everything. If the BO is experienced and willing to give you advice take it! I know you say you are a quick study but it takes lots of practice to get a good feel for horses on the ground and in the saddle so spend as much time as you can with the BO and your trainer and get a few (hundred  ) hours in the saddle on a nice quiet lesson horse as well. I honestly feel you may have bitten off a bit more then you can chew with this mare which is all the more reason to surround yourself with experienced people that can help you.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I had a woman wanting to keep her horse with me, she was what I would call a 'Happy Hacker' someone who was happy to just plod around the countryside, no problem for me.

When I went to collect the horse with her he was turned out. She caught him easily and once out the gate he was head up and looking all around. I could see he knew what he was doing and was thinking about tanking off. 

At she did was hang onto the rope and say his name over and over. I offered to take him for which she was grateful. 
This was a big strong horse who knew he was stronger and more wilful than humans - except he had never met me! 

Rope over his nose, a couple of hard yanks so he felt it and he walked in politely.

As she had cleaned and scrubbed out his stable I suggested she put his travelling boots on outside. She told me he wouldn't stand still. He thought about moving and a jerk corrected him. 
He never moved and walked up the ramp into the horsebox like a professional - I had been told he would take ages to load. 

I took over the horse and owner and watched her when she was doing things with him. I showed her how to lead him correctly with a chain over his nose so he couldn't tank off if she was leading him. 
I showed her how to make him stand still in the stable if she was doing anything and she was so grateful for the advice.

Her husband told me that at her previous place she was one of the most experienced, having had horses for years, yet for me her knowledge was minimal. Both she and her hubby told me that, after just a couple of weeks with me, how much more she was enjoying her horse and how she had more trust in him and with her new found knowledge of letting the horse know that of he went to use his strength against her, she could with short sharp pain either from the chain across his nose or a poke with a hoof pick, get his total attention on her.

I watched her put him in situations where he would normally have taken control and she never lost control at all. 

I wasnt paid to help her, she never asked me at all but, was so grateful for my experienced help. 

It sounds to me as if the BO you are with at them moment is similar to me. Experienced people are usually more than willing to help a novice, if it makes sound sense take that advice and be grateful for their interest.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

I wish I had a BO that was full of sound advice and had concern for my horse like you do. If I had that resource, you better believe i'd be asking for his opinion much more than an online forum!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Are the other horses at his facility in good condition?

Are the other horses at his facility healthy and have few Vet issues?

Are the other horses at his facility well mannered and trained adequately for the level they should be at?

If they are, you should be grateful for the expertise he is trying to bestow on you and your horse.

This man has probably forgotten more than you know about horse handling and care. As a trainer, he is detail oriented and you are lucky to have a mentor with as much knowledge as he has. Please listen to him and take advantage of it, instead of taking offense at it. 

As far as 'everyone' graining horses after riding or working them? Never something I do or would recommend. After working a horse, I do not even like to put them up right away. I usually tie them in a place away from the other horses for a while before turning them out or putting them up. [They are in much less of a hurry to get home when you do this.] And after they are put up or turned out, I want them to be able to take a drink and eat some hay or grass before they get any grain.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Funny that you say you have less freedom at the full care barn than you did at the self care barn. I'm at a full care barn now and I have WAY more freedom than I did at the self care barn I was at before. I think it has less to do with the type of care and more to do with the individual BO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the biggest difference is that the BO at the new barn takes his horses very seriously and wants to see the best out of them and their owners, and the old owner couldnt care less. 

I will need to get used to the new BO getting on my case again, this is why I really need to make wise decisions, everything from what I do with her, to her feed, to how I do things etc.



boots said:


> I don't know what "cold" vs "hot" energy is.
> 
> If the hay is decent hay, it is enough.
> 
> ...


Well at my old barn, just about everyone fed their horses grain after riding or working them.

But then again, I was the ONLY person there who fed grain to their horse every single day (how its suppose to be done) whereas everyone else fed it to their horse periodically, can be twice in a month or once in 3 months. A lot of them I notice were fed 9, 10 lbs of grain at a time. Way too much.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> 15 mins , bareback, by you and the seller each, is just not enough of a try out.


Yes and Im realizing that now.



> No saddle because she out grew it, sure sounds fishy to me! I have started many three and even two year olds, and rode many of those horses when they were mature. None out grew their saddle
> Sorry, but I see that no saddle , as an excuse to not really ride that horse
> The horse should have been ridden at all gaits, including loping on both leads, out in the open, or at least in a big arena


Well ok I shouldnt start putting words in the sellers mouth as I dont know this forsure. All I know is that (going back reading previous emails with her) and flashing back is that when I asked to see her, I asked to have her uncaught and unsaddled. She did have a saddle but she couldnt sell it as she uses it on her other horses as well.

I figured my horse outgrew that saddle over time because she was lame on her left wither until I got massage work done and she was 100% again. I dont remember all the details on why I didnt put a saddle on her, it could have been my fault in requesting the bareback pad.



> Ideallly, you should have tried that horse at intended use. Ie-if buying a trail horse, then try that horse out on a trail


Well when I was trying her, I tried her out in their big field. I didnt know until later talking with the seller that shes done trails and enjoys them.



> A balanced diet does not mean you have to feed grain
> By cool calories, I assume you are not really feeding grain, but some pre mixed pelleted feed, containing fat as the source of calories
> I am familiar with Hoffman's minerals, but just feed it free choice, or mixed in soaked beet pulp
> A horse does not need additional calories than is supplied in the forage (hay or grass ), unless work load, lactating or growth of a young horse requires additional calories . Excess calories, hot or cool, are stored, same as in people
> ...


But Hoffmans is different since its a balancer from waht I was told. Its a cold feed and has minerals, no starch, no sugar and is fat based feed. 



> I just went to the Hoffmans site, and you must be feeding the horse ration, which I see, is a high fat feed, and not a 'grain' I see that minerals are also included.


Yes, so does your thoughts change now knowing that the Hoffmans isnt a grain?



> Thus, do you know if this barn provides a mineral source, as you must have noticed the warning not to feed it, if another supplement is being fed (that includes a source of minerals, esp if both contain selenium


No they do not. I have a big 20kg bag of hoffmans loose minerals and tried to feed it to my horse loose a couple months ago. She doesnt like it and wont take it in. 



> Before you even add a supplement, you have to start with the forage, in order to balance the diet. Forage should be the main part of any horse's diet. Without knowing what is missing, how do you know what , or if anything is needed, to balance that diet?


And I have no way of telling unless I get his hay tested at a lab and trust me, the BO will NOT be cool with that.



> Certainly can see if he was concerned, if you moved your horse from the quarantine pen, and hand grazed her closer to other horses than is allowed for that quarantine


What?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Textan49 said:


> Talk to the BO about a ration balancer if you are concerned about anything lacking in the hay. Good quality hay and a ration balancer can actually supply more of the horse's needs than hay and grain. Talk to him but don't make it a debate. You may find that he can redefine some of the knowledge you have about feeding.


Im not going to be able to get a hold of a legit ration balancer. Trust me Ive tried, everywhere. No where stocks it and no one can get them in. This is why I went with Hoffmans cause I was told this is as close to a legit stand alone ration balancer as I can get, for whats available here.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> A question for you!
> 
> Do you sleep at night? I don't think I have ever come across anyone who so so over thinking things.


Im not stressing out, Im just going to be a bit nervous going back to the barn tonight and perhaps for the next while seeing that the BO is questioning me and my abilities. Its great if hes doing this to look out for me and the horse (which Im giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is) but if hes not, then his negative derogatory towards me will eventually hinder my ability and confidence to learn and keep progressing forward.

Even though I have moved on from the old barn, there was one very good thing being there. Not so much the support from the BO, but the boarders themselves. I had a ton of support from everyone. This is one of the main reasons why I decided to board there in the first place because I was familiar with the place, people and had support offered to me left and right. Yes I learned a lot, gained a lot of hands on experience, but unfortunately I also was given a lot of bad and incorrect advice, in which I did not know at the time but found out later. But its all a learning experience right? Now I know to take advice from boarders very lightly until I can find validness behind it.

I can still hand graze her but I know he will be watching me and this makes me a bit queezy about it. If I graze her for an hour, even 45mins he might come to me saying its too long.

I know what I will be working with her on for the next week and a bit until the next lesson.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If the BO had a lot of horse experience he's got a pretty good idea of what to feed. I suspect you are being overly sensitive to his questions and suggestions. Relax. When told your lengthy teaching time spent is too long to work the horse, my concern would be if the horse got a chance to eat hay during this time. Did you ask if the horse was too long without feed or too long in general for a young horse? Learn how to get a conversation going when the BO is forthcoming with advice to learn why. As for him wanting to dole out the flake of hay, he's got a budget to maintain and needs to regulate the feed, not have everyone helping themselves. I rode at a stable and come feeding time, those who pitched in often gave for pellets to their own horse which messed up the budget. There was no need to do that as all the horses had good weight.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I had a woman wanting to keep her horse with me, she was what I would call a 'Happy Hacker' someone who was happy to just plod around the countryside, no problem for me.
> 
> When I went to collect the horse with her he was turned out. She caught him easily and once out the gate he was head up and looking all around. I could see he knew what he was doing and was thinking about tanking off.
> 
> ...


Yes it does sound like Im in very similar shoes to that lady. I am grateful for all the help and advice given to me. Ive only been at this place for a week and a half and I have already learned a ton from him. You may not believe me, but Im just being honest. 

The best part about me from what Ive been told is my willingness to learn and my open mind to learn. Because of this, it makes it easy for people to teach me.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

IMO you are being a bit sensitive and over thinking things. 

The BO is trying to help you - nothing more, nothing less, and i don't doubt for a second he has concerns and is looking at you thinking that without guidance you are going to get yourself into a really bad situation really fast. 

You want whats best for your horse. I appreciate that and nobody is denying that. Your heart is in the right place, and you are doing your best to educate yourself. The only thing you are lacking, and the BO has spotted it, is hands on experience. 

Stop taking things personally, instead of getting the back up - take in everything he is saying. 

A horse is WORK may need hard feed. Your horse isn't doing anything - you aren't riding it 1 hour x 5 days a week. Hay will probably suffice, cut back and keep an eye on your horse. A horse, especially a young horse, who is over fed can get harder to handle for an inexperienced person. 

The way I see it, your BO is trying to help, take a step back and appreciate the free advice you are being offered. Otherwise, continue the way you are and spend a fortune on a horse trainer in 6 months time.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Cherie said:


> Are the other horses at his facility in good condition?


I cant just go around looking at the other horses closely but from what Ive seen so far yes. BO's policy is that i should not go near another horse that I do not own because there is no need for me to. If I did this, he would flip out.



> Are the other horses at his facility healthy and have few Vet issues?


Not sure on this one but most of the horses there are older. I do know he has high standards when it comes to vets and from my time speaking with him about the vets he uses, he knows his stuff in terms of pinpointing good vets from the not so good ones and what to look for.



> Are the other horses at his facility well mannered and trained adequately for the level they should be at?


Again, not 100% sure yet but from what Ive seen in their lessons yes.



> If they are, you should be grateful for the expertise he is trying to bestow on you and your horse.
> 
> This man has probably forgotten more than you know about horse handling and care. As a trainer, he is detail oriented and you are lucky to have a mentor with as much knowledge as he has. Please listen to him and take advantage of it, instead of taking offense at it.


I am grateful, Im not taking offense to his advice. Im just a bit nervous now knowing he is watching my every move.



> As far as 'everyone' graining horses after riding or working them? Never something I do or would recommend. After working a horse, I do not even like to put them up right away. I usually tie them in a place away from the other horses for a while before turning them out or putting them up. [They are in much less of a hurry to get home when you do this.] And after they are put up or turned out, I want them to be able to thtake a drink and eat some hay or grass before they get any grain.


When I fed my horse the Hoffmans on a day she was worked, I would always wait an hour (cause thats what I was recommended, always wait 1hour and no later than 1.5 hours after done). Everyone at the old barn would feed right away.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

See my post# 198 on your other thread....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic, you sound just like another young lady who *used to* board her 2/3 starved, untrained horse with me. She was very sweet, bought a baby horse and had absolutely no prior knowledge or experience before she bought him. To say they were a disaster waiting to happen is a gross understatement. The horse was sweet and his owner is sweet. I fed the horse and took over his total care for her because she had no clue. Her father had nearly starved this poor thing to death and when I got him, I had no idea if I could keep him alive or not. 

Between her horse's health issues and lack of training and her lack of knowledge, overthinking and obsessive behavior, in one year's time I was ready to quit. 

Notice the operative words in the first sentence are USED TO, past tense. She wore me out and I no longer take in boarders. Be very careful you don't do that to this BO. He sounds like a very knowledgable and caring BO who is willing to give you a LOT of his time to see to it that you and the horse don't kill each other or make each other totally neurotic. 

Instead of going off half cocked and making puddles and scrubbing water tubs that probably don't need it, ASK before you do things. This is a full care facility and you are paying for that luxury. Go enjoy your horse, pet her, groom her and leave the feeding, watering, picking, de-worming, vaccinating and farrier work to others more knowledgable than you. I don't mean don't learn, but I mean stop being a pest and obsessing and trying to micromanage things you don't know anything about.

If I were the BO, as soon as I realized I'd taken in another just like the other who wore me out, I'd have told you to find another facility. If you keep on like you are, you're going to end up getting the boot. So, keep your ears and eyes open. mouth shut, quit making excuses for EVERYTHING and LEARN from the man and be grateful he's not charging you by the hour. 

Sorry, but good gawd a'mighty!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> See my post# 198 on your other thread....


Yes I saw it, but Im not willing to give up just like that. I am not a quitter and I knew what I was getting myself into. I was and still am up for the challenge. My trainer said she has full confidence I can make this work. It will obviously take time and a lot of hard work on my behalf and dedication but because I have such an open mind and ambitious drive to learn, she feels she can help us reach our goals. She pretty much said exactly the same thing as the previous trainers, shes a fun horse with a lot of potential, though very sensitive. 

She said with the accessibility to the school horses there, she has no doubt that she can get us to work.

Right now I have my work cut out for me until the next lesson. I know what I need to work on. In a weeks time by the next lesson, I have no doubt that I will have made great progress. I will feel a lot more comfortable and natural putting on a saddle and bridle etc. Obviously yes I need more practice but this is why the trainer is having me do this everyday, numerous times a day. Last night, I spent a good 6 mins putting on and take off her bridle. I felt a lot more comfortable and confident afterwards.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Saddlebag said:


> If the BO had a lot of horse experience he's got a pretty good idea of what to feed. I suspect you are being overly sensitive to his questions and suggestions. Relax. When told your lengthy teaching time spent is too long to work the horse, my concern would be if the horse got a chance to eat hay during this time. Did you ask if the horse was too long without feed or too long in general for a young horse? Learn how to get a conversation going when the BO is forthcoming with advice to learn why. As for him wanting to dole out the flake of hay, he's got a budget to maintain and needs to regulate the feed, not have everyone helping themselves. I rode at a stable and come feeding time, those who pitched in often gave for pellets to their own horse which messed up the budget. There was no need to do that as all the horses had good weight.


The reason why I ended up tying my horse for much longer than wanting last week was because I took the advice from many boarders on here who said that I tie her until she stands quietly. If it takes 2 hours, 3 hours so be it. Minutes of her standing tied isnt near long enough, which ironically was what I had to go off by when untying her since I essentially untied her after 5 mins of standing quietly. Her standing a full hour, even 15mins of standing quietly before untying just wasnt going to happen.

Do I regret doing it? Yes, I did as soon as the following morning. Will I do it again? No. The BO is right, she is only 4years old and thats just too much for her to go through. Do short sessions but in repetition even if its more than once a day.

I understand about the BOs budget for regulating feed and that is why I didnt ask him past the first night for hay to fill her net. Its not going to work, he wont be happy. But my main purpose of wanting to fill her net is not so much that Im worried if shes getting enough hay (I know she is), but so she doesnt go long periods of time without forage and so she has access to hay throughout the night. Her nibble net is one of the things that shes fondly become to love and look forward to every night ,but uinfortunately Im not able to use it at the new place.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

It's been said before in this thread, but I'll say it again. Honestly, I think you're being too sensitive. You say you're worried he's watching your every move--so what if he is? He'll correct whatever he doesn't like or whatever you're doing incorrectly, you'll learn something, then you'll both go on with your day.

I don't think this has anything to do with him judging you, or your horse, or any of the above. I think he is looking out for the wellbeing of his boarders and his property.

The great (and sometimes equally terrible) thing about the horse industry is that everyone has an opinion. Some of them are warranted and helpful, others are unnecessary and should be tuned out.
It sounds to me like his opinions are warranted, and I'd listen to them rather than getting ruffled. Everyone makes mistakes, I make them all the time--at the barn and away from the barn! But it sounds like you've been presented with a great opportunity to learn, and I'd take it.

If you really can't stand him giving you his opinions, moving is always an option.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To answer your feed question.
Yes, feeding a hard feed that is based on cool calories is better than using one with lots of hot calories, as cool calories, unlike hot calories, are not associated with an increased risk of mood changes, colic or laminitis, in proportion to amount fed
Still, either hot or cool calories, fed beyond what is required for daily activities, will cause a horse to store them as weight
If calories and protein demands are filled by the forage, then you only need to supply a source of minerals. My horses like the Hoffman's minerals , and will eat them free choice. If your horse won't eat minerals by themselves, I would add a daily amount to soaked beet pulp


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Hoofpic, you sound just like another young lady who *used to* board her 2/3 starved, untrained horse with me. She was very sweet, bought a baby horse and had absolutely no prior knowledge or experience before she bought him. To say they were a disaster waiting to happen is a gross understatement. The horse was sweet and his owner is sweet. I fed the horse and took over his total care for her because she had no clue. Her father had nearly starved this poor thing to death and when I got him, I had no idea if I could keep him alive or not.
> 
> Between her horse's health issues and lack of training and her lack of knowledge, overthinking and obsessive behavior, in one year's time I was ready to quit.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice, I will not wear out the BO and make sure I dont do anything to risk any chances of this happening. I am taking in his advice with open arms.

I dont mean to make it sound like Im making excuses, if I am, its not on purpose.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

A sympathize with you, OP, because I know exactly what its like to be in your shoes. While I do agree you are being too sensitive, that's easy for outsiders to say and honestly it's completely understandable in your situation. You threw yourself into a world you know *nothing *about. You've noticed that the more experienced people around you are full of comments, opinions, and things to say - I bet most of them not _intentionally _critical, but to you that's what it seems like. I think that perhaps you were not expecting all of this, but it's what you're starting to come to grips with.

It's hard for most people to take criticism, intentional or not. It makes us feel inadequate, it makes us feel like the people dishing it out have some personal vendetta against us although this is hardly ever the case. It makes us feel as though others are _disappointed _in us, which is one of the worst feelings we as humans can have. It beats us down, and we lose our self-esteem and confidence. 

The important life lesson I learned from walking the path you are walking now is not to make experienced people out to be your enemies. Of course they have some things to say about your horsemanship, because quite frankly it probably sucks right now! But you absolutely cannot be ashamed of that. Shame makes you defensive, and makes you shut down. You end up turning away from the people who criticize you, the people who you honestly need the most in your life right now, citing thing like your "barn owner is upset" with you.

Remember that these experienced people have much, much more knowledge than you. You have no right to be defensive with them. You have no right to tell them what is what. Next time someone tells you "I don't think your horse needs grain", ask "Why?". And don't just ask that individual, ask everyone. Research. Google what health benefits grain has to a horse, because to be honest it really has none. The only purpose grain serves outside of giving a horse extra sugar for extra energy (which your nervous horse does NOT need by the way!) is to provide the horse something quick to gobble down if you need to add supplements to their diet.

Clear your slate. Forget everything you think you know about horses, because I can tell you right now that you don't know nearly enough to be making educated decisions about your horse's health and well-being. And please, please - do not be sensitive to this post. I am not looking down on you. I am not trying to attack you. And to be honest, neither is anyone else here. We are trying to help, as strange as that might seem. Tough love, as they say.

Be more willing and open to learn, because right now you are being your own worst enemy. Remember your ignorance and your lack of knowledge. Ask questions - many, many, many questions until you are blue in the face. Be up front and honest with the horse people in your life. Tell them how inexperienced you are. Tell them this is your first horse. Tell them you know nothing about horses, but are so eager and willing to learn. I can guarantee your BO is currently 'upset' because he is starting to realize how high maintenance you are; not because you are green but because you are green and think you know better.

But I have complete confidence that you can get through this. If you are dedicated and have a love for the sport and the animal, I can tell you that you WILL absolutely 100% succeed. I was exactly where you are right now 3 years ago. Now I am riding at a show barn getting on some of the hottest Saddlebreds (aka fire breathing dragon horses) you will ever meet, taking care of an injured horse with some special needs, and have gone to my first 2 horse shows where I placed in all of my classes. I am preparing to perform in Equitation classes in breed shows next year. 

I have so much more to learn, but I've also come so far. I am proud of my accomplishments, but know I could have never gotten there without the help of much more experienced people in my life. Do not ever take them for granted for they are the key to your success. You are just a conduit of their knowledge.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks Willow for the advice, no need to worry about me getting offensive with your post. I have to see this whole relationship with my BO in a positive light, theres just no other way around it. If he gets upset with me about something, I just cant take it personal and let his tone of voice get to me. I need to put a whole positive spin around things and not see him as a negative influence on me, cause Im sure he is doing this because he just simply cares.

The previous barn was a learning experience but unfortunately, I took too much incorrect advice from other boarders as if they were facts. I do my research on just about everything right now and weed out advice Im unsure about until I do my research on it.

Well lets see how tonight goes with the BO! I will go about my business and if he is still upset with me (which Im sure he is), I will just chat it up with him, let him know i am grateful for his advice and let him know I am taking her off grain for a month and re-assess.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I am green yes, but the good news is that I am continously learning and am a very quick learner. It wasnt long ago, I was just learning to tie a horse or put on a rope halter. And because I have more interest in horsemanship than riding, it would explain why I need practice putting on a saddle and bridle. Now that Ive already spent the last few months on horsemanship and refining what I know, its time I shift over to riding.
> 
> But my trainer gave me some to dos for the next while and that is to put on my horses bridle a few times a day if I can, same with the saddle...to get me practice but also get my horse more used to being tached up again. Cause she was pretty fresh when she rode her tonight, she wasnt used to having her bit in her mouth, her bridle on, a saddle on etc. It will take her some time to get her mindset back to being ridden again. But my trainer is fully confident in me being able to catch on quickly in terms of saddling, bridling etc.
> 
> ...


No, I don't believe that a horse would have a better diet when on grain. The only time my gelding has ever had grain was when he was gelded and I had to give him antibiotics. Other than that, he's been on either straight alfalfa or Bermuda grass and alfalfa hay his entire life. He's always been a good weight, he's never colicked, and he has never been hot. His coat is always shiny and his hooves are hard as rock (although most of that is genetics). 

I think a lot of people think that horses, especially young ones, _*need*_ grain because the feed companies convince them of that. I grew up in cowboy country where the majority of horses were used for ranch work or competitive roping. You would find some trail horses here and there, but until recently, if a horse didn't "earn its keep," so to speak, it was considered useless. The most I ever knew of anyone feeding was sweet feed and even then, that was considered something you fed older horses once they started having trouble keeping weight on. The majority of horses were fed alfalfa or Bermuda grass or put out on "pasture" on the tough native "chino" grass that grows around here. These were horses that were used hard daily, then on the weekends were hauled to rodeos. You never saw skinny horses and colic was not very common (I used to work for a vet and cannot recall more than one or two actual colic cases in the two and a half years I worked there). 

I think once the market tanked and horses became readily accessible to the average person, feed companies suddenly saw a market for selling their hard feeds (what most people call grain) to these people who were getting into the horse industry with little to no prior horse knowledge. They saw a way to increase their bottom line and jumped on it. 

At the barns I've boarded at, the only horses who get grain are the ones who are hard keepers (can't keep weight on with hay alone), who are older and need the extra calories to keep weight on, or get supplements for one reason or another (example would be my old gelding, who was allergic to flies, so got a supplement for that during the summer mixed with a handful of senior feed). Even my BO's 41yo mare who was her first horse just gets straight Bermuda grass hay and she's verging on being tubby, even though the BO's kids still ride Jewel three or four times a week (she's the horse all the kids learn to ride bareback on because she's so steady).

You may be a quick learner, but that analogy of being an English-only speaker trying to teach a Spanish-only speaker how to speak Russian still applies. Sure, you may know a few more words in Spanish now, but you're still trying to teach a language you don't know. That's why we all always recommend that beginners start out with an older, well-broke horse. They already speak English and Russian, so all the human has to do is learn to speak Russian. It's less stressful for everyone and there's less chance of the horse becoming a spoiled, unmanagable mess because the human doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't have a good sense of timing or feel. It also makes it WAY less stressful for the human and the horse because you don't have to constantly worry about little issues that arise with having a green or unbroke youngster. You get to thoroughly enjoy the experience of owning a horse.

I don't say this to be mean, but something tells me that you bought this mare based mainly on the fact that she's pretty, not based on her suitability for you and your level.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think you'll learn a lot more from this BO than would have ever learnt at the previous place, the fact that he cares enough about his existing boarders to have a strict quarantine rule says a lot about the place and that your horse will be safer there than somewhere they let in anything without question
I agree with pretty much everything he says - and he's keeping an eye on you for your own safety and benefit because he's not convinced that you're 100% capable. Not a bad thing at all
If he's providing good hay and your horse isn't in hard work then he's probably worried that its going to get too fat on extra feed
The Hoffman's feed looks OK but it does contain selenium so you'd need to know how much of that mineral is already in your horses daily intake - the safe amount is a very fine line.
I doubt your horse needs all that extra food right now - at the very most put a bit of food in his manger for him when you bring him in, I find it gives a horse something to look forward too and they think less about coming in just to be worked.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think a lot of people think that horses, especially young ones, _*need*_ grain because the feed companies convince them of that.


Pretty much what made me think I should feed my horse grain. Not cause I need to but because she would be healthier and better off with grain added in her diet. Now I know its not true. 

When the BO was talking to me last night, an example he gave me was that none of the school horses there, nor his own ever get grain. Because he says they dont need it. One of their lesson horses gets ridden 5-7 times a week and sometimes twice a day and he said he never gave him grain in his life. He said he is as healthy as can be. 

I think his biggest concern about me feeding my horse grain is the fact shes currently not working, like he said "you're not doing anything with her, she doesnt need grain."

I will take pictures tonight of her cause I need to take another look at her to see if she has infact gained weight since arriving there and switching to the top grade hay. If he has gained weight, BO says it would be from the hay being much better quality than her old barn hay.

I have a picture of her from just a week before I was leaving the old barn. She was fine back then. Like many people have said (including the new trainer), shes not fat but shes definitely not starving either. They all said that shes just above normal weight for her size. When I run my hand along her rib cage, I can just barely feel her ribs with my fingers.




> I think once the market tanked and horses became readily accessible to the average person, feed companies suddenly saw a market for selling their hard feeds (what most people call grain) to these people who were getting into the horse industry with little to no prior horse knowledge. They saw a way to increase their bottom line and jumped on it.


Yes most likely



> At the barns I've boarded at, the only horses who get grain are the ones who are hard keepers (can't keep weight on with hay alone), who are older and need the extra calories to keep weight on


I agree, but the reality is that, a lot of boarders still believe that grain in their horses diet makes them better off. There was lots at the old barn with this stuck mindset and the BO at the new place said last night that there are a handful of boarders there who feed their horses grain just for piece of mind and it makes them feel better.




> I don't say this to be mean, but something tells me that you bought this mare based mainly on the fact that she's pretty, not based on her suitability for you and your level.


I bought her based on her situation and her personality (from the very brief time I was able to see her). She was alone, was very lonely, was kept in the owners backyard for a couple months and the owner didnt have time to take care of her when shes away. The owner priced her as a quick sale because she was going away in a couple weeks and was obo on the price.

I saw her pictures, felt she was a great oppurtunity for me. Yes I jumped the gun a bit too quick. I essentially went to see her, rode her the same night and was already talking price later that night. Came back 5 days later with the vet to do a test, shots and we agreed on the price and arranged for a date for moving her.

Its all a learning experience. Do I regret doing this? Not at all. Not trying to ignore your advice or make it sound like im making excuses. We cant get better as people if we dont learn from past errors. I just have to make all the adjustments I need to make to make this work and the trainer has confidence that I can do it with the help from her (and Im sure the BO as well). New trainer has confidence I can do it, past two trainers said they have confidence I can do it, past barn helper said they she has confidence I can do it.

The good news is that Im single, I dont have any other hobbies really aside from horses and outside of work, I have all the time in the world to devote to her.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Your BO does know much more than you do about horses, but _the whole thing troubles me because you are surprised about his interference with your ownership and training._
Do you recall when signing your contract that your BO would Also be your horse's trainer? Do you recall that your BO's contract included making all decisions about your horse's feeding?
Go back and read your agreement to see if these items are in it. Many barns are run by owners who do not interfere with their boarders unless the boarder breaks rules.
You are, after all, PAYING the BO to keep your horse on his property. If I had to board again, I would not want the BO to interfere with my feeding and handling. I would interview any BO to find out how he or she runs things.
You have probably already learned that you can tell a horse person...but you can't tell them much. Many other hobbyists behave the same way. I keep my horses in one way, and though I am satisfied other horse people might think that I am negligent, or a bad horse owner when I mount my horse from the ground. Some of these insults are fighting words and you are well advised to bite your tongue.
I think that you need to read your contract. If the BO is not your horses's #2 default trainer, he needs to butt out of the work that you and your #1 trainer are doing, unless he wants to kick your trainer out of the barn.
Your horse is legally your PROPERTY, and you do have a say in his treatment because YOU bought him and own him. You wouldn't want other people telling you to clean out your car, or get the tire's rotated or change the oil and nag you about these things. Even if they are well versed in car ownership and maintenance, it just isn't their place to TELL you what to do, just suggest and then leave you alone.
I think you should sit down with your BO and clarify how things are to be run at this place. If you continue to be uncomfortable, find another barn.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> Your BO does know much more than you do about horses, but _the whole thing troubles me because you are surprised about his interference with your ownership and training._
> Do you recall when signing your contract that your BO would Also be your horse's trainer? Do you recall that your BO's contract included making all decisions about your horse's feeding?
> Go back and read your agreement to see if these items are in it. Many barns are run by owners who do not interfere with their boarders unless the boarder breaks rules.
> You are, after all, PAYING the BO to keep your horse on his property. If I had to board again, I would not want the BO to interfere with my feeding and handling. I would interview any BO to find out how he or she runs things.
> ...



There is nothing on the barn agreement contract stating that the BO to make any decisions for my horses feeding, nor is he the 2nd owner of her.

I dont think he would kick his trainer out of the barn from his actions because the trainer actually is much younger than him and looks up to him as a mentor. My trainer has been riding since she was 6 (shes 30 or 31 right now, 3 years younger than me) but she doesnt have the experience that the BO has.

I will still spin his advice in a positive light and give him the benefit of the doubt that hes questioning me hard because hes just looking out for a novice.
Right now, I have only known him for a couple weeks and its too soon to jump the gun as far as considering moving her already to another barn.

Like others have said, this is either a glorious oppurtunity for me to learn hands on from a master (learning from two people can be seen as a benefit), or this can be a failure and a castastrophe all depending on how I take things from him.

I do know that when hes upset or a bit agitated, he can be intimidating (if that feeling hasnt already set in inside me). Just because he prefers to play hardball and doesnt verbally communicate with me in the greatest tone of voice at times, I cant let it get to me or else I wont be able to learn from him.

Lets see how it goes tonight. Im a bit nervous to see him again.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Corporal said:


> Your BO does know much more than you do about horses, but _the whole thing troubles me because you are surprised about his interference with your ownership and training._
> Do you recall when signing your contract that your BO would Also be your horse's trainer? Do you recall that your BO's contract included making all decisions about your horse's feeding?
> Go back and read your agreement to see if these items are in it. Many barns are run by owners who do not interfere with their boarders unless the boarder breaks rules.
> You are, after all, PAYING the BO to keep your horse on his property. If I had to board again, I would not want the BO to interfere with my feeding and handling. I would interview any BO to find out how he or she runs things.
> ...



I understand what you are getting at but I cannot fully agree with you. 

When a horse was kept with me even if it was a DIY livery, i _was_ the horses second carer. 
If an owner couldn't get to the barn at a decent hour I would turn the horse out and/or feed it if it had a feed ditto with bringing it in in the evening or if the weather turned very wet. 

With someone like the OP you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be there to help with advice and showing how to do something. She is very novice, very keen to learn and, if help/advice is given in the right way it is appreciated. 

*In all the years I have worked with horses I have never had anyone leave because of 'interference' *

With so many years experience under my belt I have seen way to many 'accidents' that could well have been avoided if someone had interfered.

Ever seen someone's hand so swollen the skin was splitting, fingers like sausages because they wrapped the rope around their hand? People who knew better around at the time said nothing because it was none of their business. 

If I can help someone either by suggesting a better way or stop an accident happening by interfering then you can bet your bottom dollar I will voice my opinion.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I can see your point, and I'm sure that the OP sleeps better at night realizing that the BO has her back.
Still, it sounds as if there has been a lack of communication. Certainly the BO doesn't have any trouble taking monthly board from a newbie. I have known a few BO's, and I appreciated those that had clear rules posted and managed but didn't interfere with any training. And, Hoofpic, I didn't say that he is the default OWNER, just behaving as if you are also paying him to train your horse, and has become the default TRAINER.
I guess this is why I prefer to be an independent contractor! =D


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, I did not say, that IF YOU NEED TO FEED, extra calories, that cool calories are then a better choice than hot calories.
I just said feeding any calories, hot or cool, in excess to daily life requirements and activities, will be stored as excess weight
What type of hay is being fed?
It is so very confusing to me, when people use the term, ;grain' for any concentrate, even when it contains little or even no actual grain! I then have to look up to what is actually being fed, instead of advise geared to 'grain'
Again, horse feeds are divided into three main categories, depending on what they contain the most(does not mean they don't contain any of what the other classifications are
_a fiber feed
a protein feed
an energy feed = calories. Grains have hot calories, while fats are a source of cool calories
I do prefer to feed a hay that is not too nutritionally dense (except to yearlings and weanlings )
The reason being, that I do believe in not having a horse standing around with an empty gut, thus you can feed more of a less dense nutritional hay, without having the horse gain weight
I do hang slow feeder hay nets, for my two horses that are drylotted over night, but I have good quality grass hay
I would also be a bit concerned, if my horses were in a boarding situation, without that chew time, thus this concern I see as legitimate, unless those horses are being fed frequent smalll hay rations, with last feeding being around 10 PM


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Smilie, do you think that it's sometimes a better idea for larger feeding at night, when the daytime temperatures are really hot?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

My arab doesn't need anything extra. She gets a handful of oats and beet pulp because the Bo likes to make sure they get their minerals.

My yearling gets beet pulp because he's growing like a weed and needs a little extra.

My 14 year old saddle horse is an extremely hard keeper that I'm fairly certain would become extremely emaciated and die on a diet of just average hay.

My point is that every horse is different. My first choice is always to have them on pasture or good grass hay, no grain with free choice loose minerals and salt. If they need minerals they eat them, if they don't they ignore them. I would aim for this with your mare.

Op, I think you should watch and learn, follow his advice and see what happens. Then you can form an opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I think you'll learn a lot more from this BO than would have ever learnt at the previous place, the fact that he cares enough about his existing boarders to have a strict quarantine rule says a lot about the place and that your horse will be safer there than somewhere they let in anything without question
> I agree with pretty much everything he says - and he's keeping an eye on you for your own safety and benefit because he's not convinced that you're 100% capable. Not a bad thing at all
> If he's providing good hay and your horse isn't in hard work then he's probably worried that its going to get too fat on extra feed
> The Hoffman's feed looks OK but it does contain selenium so you'd need to know how much of that mineral is already in your horses daily intake - the safe amount is a very fine line.
> I doubt your horse needs all that extra food right now - at the very most put a bit of food in his manger for him when you bring him in, I find it gives a horse something to look forward too and they think less about coming in just to be worked.


Yes the fact this BO has a quarentine period shows he has a lot stricter rules when it comes to new horses coming in. Whereas at the old place, new boarders could throw their horse anywhere they please and if one gets hurt, no one will find out because the horses arent checked.

Theres no doubt that he got upset because he's worried shes going to get too fat. It is killing me right now knowing I cant give her grain for a month. She loves this stuff and looks forward to me feeding it to her every night.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> I can see your point, and I'm sure that the OP sleeps better at night realizing that the BO has her back.
> Still, it sounds as if there has been a lack of communication. Certainly the BO doesn't have any trouble taking monthly board from a newbie. I have known a few BO's, and I appreciated those that had clear rules posted and managed but didn't interfere with any training. And, Hoofpic, I didn't say that he is the default OWNER, just behaving as if you are also paying him to train your horse, and has become the default TRAINER.
> I guess this is why I prefer to be an independent contractor! =D


Because its his place, he might be training me just as much as my actual trainer is because the BO has just as much say as the trainer does when it comes to teaching (if not more because hes older). I think hes also sitting in on my lessons so that he can get a good feel for what kind of training my horse has, he can observe with his own eyes and will help give him a better idea on which field he will put her out in.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Theres no doubt that he got upset because he's worried shes going to get too fat. It is killing me right now knowing I cant give her grain for a month. She loves this stuff and looks forward to me feeding it to her every night.


This is another reason I don't like giving young horses grain. My best friend was giving her 3yo filly grain, mainly because the two older horses got it and she didn't want the baby to "feel left out." :icon_rolleyes: Baby started getting too fat (she's a total air fern...even worse than my gelding, which is saying a lot), so she cut off the baby's grain completely. Now, at feeding time, Baby goes completely nuts and gets extremely pushy and upset that the other two are getting grain and she isn't. Doesn't help that she's never reprimanded for her behavior, but it's gotten to the point where I won't go in her pen at feeding time because she is so pushy and gets so ****y that she isn't getting any grain. I'm used to dealing with a 17hh, 1600lbs draft cross, so her little 14.2hh 900lbs butt doesn't scare me, but my gelding would never DREAM of being that pushy or disrespectful.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> What type of hay is being fed?


He feeds her his Timothy and Brome mix with he said maybe 10% alfalfa. Its all 1st cut and according to him, top grade.

He has this mix, a straight alfalfa and a Timothy and Brome mix but with 25% alfalfa for his older horses.

Obviously I would prefer it to have zero alfalfa in it but he said at 10% it shouldnt be a factor.

In the old barn she was on mostly straw hay, it was 2nd cut and noticably worse quality.



> It is so very confusing to me, when people use the term, ;grain' for any concentrate, even when it contains little or even no actual grain! I then have to look up to what is actually being fed, instead of advise geared to 'grain'


Well is the hoffmans rations considered grain then? 



> The reason being, that I do believe in not having a horse standing around with an empty gut, thus you can feed more of a less dense nutritional hay, without having the horse gain weight
> I do hang slow feeder hay nets, for my two horses that are drylotted over night, but I have good quality grass hay
> I would also be a bit concerned, if my horses were in a boarding situation, without that chew time, thus this concern I see as legitimate, unless those horses are being fed frequent smalll hay rations, with last feeding being around 10 PM


I would love to have her nibble net filled at night but no way its going to work with this BO. He clearly doesnt want me pulling hay from anywhere. He feeds in the morning between 7-30am and at night between 5-7pm. I know its a bit all over the chart but if he feeds her at say 5pm, then that is 14 hours until her next meal.

In winters (and one reason why I moved here), he feeds 3 times a day (even 4 when its incredibly cold). The 3rd feed is usually around 9pm.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

BlueSpark said:


> If they need minerals they eat them, if they don't they ignore them. I would aim for this with your mare.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tried the hoffmans loose minerals in a bucket plus salt block and it didnt work. She loves her salt block but wont touch the loose minerals. SHe did on the first night I put them out in her paddock about 2 months ago but hasnt touched them since.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is another reason I don't like giving young horses grain. My best friend was giving her 3yo filly grain, mainly because the two older horses got it and she didn't want the baby to "feel left out." :icon_rolleyes: Baby started getting too fat (she's a total air fern...even worse than my gelding, which is saying a lot), so she cut off the baby's grain completely. Now, at feeding time, Baby goes completely nuts and gets extremely pushy and upset that the other two are getting grain and she isn't. Doesn't help that she's never reprimanded for her behavior, but it's gotten to the point where I won't go in her pen at feeding time because she is so pushy and gets so ****y that she isn't getting any grain. I'm used to dealing with a 17hh, 1600lbs draft cross, so her little 14.2hh 900lbs butt doesn't scare me, but my gelding would never DREAM of being that pushy or disrespectful.


The good thing about is that shes in her own pasture paddock so she eats alone. When she goes out in the field, she might or might be with other horses who eat grain.

A girl I used to date (yes the one who essentially got me to fall in love with horses and yes Im a guy not a girl), has two horses. She fed her one more (about 16hh, 2000lbs, way overweight), sweet feed every night regardless of the weather or working her. Not sure her reasoning behind sweet feed but she fed her about 3lbs a night. She insisted that she needed it but yet she knew she mare was very overweight and I mean VERY FAT. Of all the horses ive seen and met over the past year, I dont think ive come across one as fast as my ex's mare.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes the fact this BO has a quarentine period shows he has a lot stricter rules when it comes to new horses coming in. Whereas at the old place, new boarders could throw their horse anywhere they please and if one gets hurt, no one will find out because the horses arent checked.
> 
> Theres no doubt that he got upset because he's worried shes going to get too fat. It is killing me right now knowing I cant give her grain for a month. She loves this stuff and looks forward to me feeding it to her every night.


Yikes! OP, don't feel bad about not feeding your horse grain. Your horse is being a B-R-A-T if he gives you attitude about food, and don't you dare feel like you are an inadequate owner because of that. Holy smokes, at this rate the horse is going to have your number quicker than you can pick up a phone.

I have been feeding my mare pellets every day because she requires joint supplements due to an recent injury and her arthritis. After a week I began to see the spoiled attitude coming out in her. Ear pinning, looking for food in my hands, etc. You might think that it's cute and that you should feel bad if you don't feed him, but you won't be thinking the same when your horse starts pushing you around because you've become nothing more than a vending machine! When my mare pulls this, it's because she's spoiled - I certainly don't feel bad for her.

I'm living with it as best I can because I _have _to, but if I had the option I wouldn't be feeding my horse at all. I'd let the staff give her her hay, and that's it.

Trust me, within a few days of not feeding him the grain, he *will *get over it. Soon he won't be searching you for food at all.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> He feeds her his Timothy and Brome mix with he said maybe 10% alfalfa. Its all 1st cut and according to him, top grade.
> 
> He has this mix, a straight alfalfa and a Timothy and Brome mix but with 25% alfalfa for his older horses.
> 
> ...


Why would you prefer no alfalfa?

If you want her nibble net filled, then buy hay and fill it yourself. I can understand the BO not wanting you to be pulling hay yourself. Sure, you may be honest and only take that half a flake, but not everyone is that honest and if he lets you, then he has to let everyone. Buying hay is probably his highest cost, so he wants to keep a sharp eye on it. My old BO wouldn't let anyone take extra hay for their horses, either. He wouldn't even let you pick up the scraps that fell off the open bales to feed as a snack.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I also learn from others older and more experienced than myself. When I moved to my 5 rural acres, I called the University of Illinois Vet school to ask about getting my well water tested, to see if I should use it. Instead, I got a very informative 30 minute phone lecture from the Veteranian who told me many things, including that his father raised show Shires on pasture and wintered them on straight straw. Straw is not hay but good straw HAS nutrition that a horse can live on. These are big, heavy horses that need more calories/day than any light horse. There have been many discussions here on hay. One of them took place during a terrible drought in 2012, when hay supplies dried up. * We ALL bought what we could, and we were Happy to get it, at very high prices.* You could buy your favorite hay at very high prices, and most was trucked in from another part of the country that had surpluses. I found my current hay supplier in 2012.
You might ask if you can purchase a supply of complete feed and have your horse feed that at the same time as the other horses are being fed Their grain, and your horse wouldn't feel deprived.
I think that you wanted to vent. Many people here have given you good advice on this thread.
I believe that you are very happy at your barn, so enjoy it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

WillowNightwind said:


> Yikes! OP, don't feel bad about not feeding your horse grain. Your horse is being a B-R-A-T if he gives you attitude about food,


no no my horse is a mare and she doesnt give me attitude about food. She just gets excited for the grain. Last night she was waiting for me to bring it out after the lesson and I didnt. She wasnt pushy, just dissapointed and probably wondering where it is.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Why would you prefer no alfalfa?
> 
> If you want her nibble net filled, then buy hay and fill it yourself. I can understand the BO not wanting you to be pulling hay yourself. Sure, you may be honest and only take that half a flake, but not everyone is that honest and if he lets you, then he has to let everyone. Buying hay is probably his highest cost, so he wants to keep a sharp eye on it. My old BO wouldn't let anyone take extra hay for their horses, either. He wouldn't even let you pick up the scraps that fell off the open bales to feed as a snack.


Because she isnt a race horse and Im afraid she will pack on the weight with alfalfa. Seeing the effects the aflalfa fields have had on horses in the old barn that is.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Corporal said:


> I also learn from others older and more experienced than myself. When I moved to my 5 rural acres, I called the University of Illinois Vet school to ask about getting my well water tested, to see if I should use it. Instead, I got a very informative 30 minute phone lecture from the Veteranian who told me many things, including that his father raised show Shires on pasture and wintered them on straight straw. Straw is not hay but good straw HAS nutrition that a horse can live on. These are big, heavy horses that need more calories/day than any light horse. There have been many discussions here on hay. One of them took place during a terrible drought in 2012, when hay supplies dried up. * We ALL bought what we could, and we were Happy to get it, at very high prices.* You could buy your favorite hay at very high prices, and most was trucked in from another part of the country that had surpluses. I found my current hay supplier in 2012.
> You might ask if you can purchase a supply of complete feed and have your horse feed that at the same time as the other horses are being fed Their grain, and your horse wouldn't feel deprived.
> I think that you wanted to vent. Many people here have given you good advice on this thread.
> I believe that you are very happy at your barn, so enjoy it.


Yes Im happy at the new place, I did it for my horse not so much myself. It was just a far better place for her in terms of safety, fitting in and overall care. WHen she goes out in the field, I plan on taking one night a week where I dont come out and see her. As much as I love seeing her everyday and I wake up every morning already looking forward to seeing her, I need a break. Ive been going at it non stop, every night for the past 13 weeks. I will miss her on the day I do not go out and see her as she has become accustomed to me coming out everyday.

The old place was forsure straw. Huge difference between the new stuff just by eyeballing it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

There is a big difference between fresh alfalfa and baled alfalfa. My gelding, until we moved to the barn we're at now, was never fed anything but alfalfa. Now, he gets more Bermuda grass than alfalfa. He's never been overweight and he's never been "hot" from it (granted, he's not a hot horse by nature, but still). Honestly, even 25% alfalfa isn't going to make her gain a ton of weight or be super hot. Grain will do that more to her than alfalfa will.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Everyday and night for 13 weeks? OY! LOL! I have 10 horses in my back yard and I don't see them that often!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Everyday and night for 13 weeks? OY! LOL! I have 10 horses in my back yard and I don't see them that often!


That's what I was thinking! lol Even when I first bought Aires, I was only out there five days a week for an hour or two a day (I'd spend all day there on my day off if I had a day off during the week, though), mainly because I had to clean my stall every day (per the BO).


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Everyday and night for 13 weeks? OY! LOL! I have 10 horses in my back yard and I don't see them that often!


Well shes never been in a herd since I got her and has been alone and before I got her, she was alone for 2 months in the previous owners backyard. 

So by me seeing her every night, it helps build our partnership and lets her come out of her paddock everyday, go for a walk, get grass, go in the barn, etc.

I always find horses being in paddocks (though shes in a 3/4 acre one right now) more than a day at a time straight is hard on them simply cause they get bored.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> There is a big difference between fresh alfalfa and baled alfalfa. My gelding, until we moved to the barn we're at now, was never fed anything but alfalfa. Now, he gets more Bermuda grass than alfalfa. He's never been overweight and he's never been "hot" from it (granted, he's not a hot horse by nature, but still). Honestly, even 25% alfalfa isn't going to make her gain a ton of weight or be super hot. Grain will do that more to her than alfalfa will.


Ok well good to know. For some reason I fell for it when the people who make Hoffmans said their feed doesnt make horses hot because its cold energy. They said it makes them more calm.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Ok well good to know. For some reason I fell for it when the people who make Hoffmans said their feed doesnt make horses hot because its cold energy. They said it makes them more calm.


I can't find an ingredient list/percentages on their Horse Ration. Always makes me suspicious when a company isn't up front about what's in their feed. NOT saying it isn't good feed, it may be. I've heard real good things about their minerals.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Ok well good to know. For some reason I fell for it when the people who make Hoffmans said their feed doesnt make horses hot because its cold energy. They said it makes them more calm.


I always take what companies claim about their products with a grain of salt.

For example, you know the stuff called "Cool Calories"? It's supposed to be a supplement for weight gain and "focused energy." My best friend tried it with her TB gelding because he needed something extra to maintain his weight, but he gets incredibly hot on most grains. Yeah, two weeks of feeding Cool Calories and he was an absolute mess. Switched him back to Purina Strategy Healthy Edge and he was calmer...still hot, but not the absolute bat-crap insane that he was on the Cool Calories (it was when he was on the Cool Calories that he tried to kick me in the head for shooing him out of my space).


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## Luvs Horses (Jan 9, 2014)

OP where'er the pics of your mare? O.O watching for em...

Lots of good comments here so I am just gonna beg for pics. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

You're righty about a lot of Self care people feeding "grain" after they ride. I know I do. 

There are a couple reasons for it. First it's the only time we are out there - it's not like there is a choice of when to feed so you either feed when you ride or you don't feed at all. Second, I do it as a kind of treat for my horse, he's been ridden or brought in or whatever and then he gets something tasty. Mine only gets about three handfuls. Third is that hay is hard to feed self care. You've got to store it, transport it and then stand around for hours while they eat. In most cases it's just not feasible. "Grain" feeds are very high in calories and relatively quick for the horse to eat. Finally, at self care places many of them are just in it for the money, many I would see the barn owner once a month or so. This often means they don't put money into having a good pasture, improving it etc. So the supplemental feeding is needed.

Just because people do this doesn't mean it's ideal. 

Self care isn't for everyone just like full care isn't for everyone. Each barn has a different culture and style and it's pretty much a case of start doing things their way or leave. I wouldn't like someone telling me what to feed my horse so I probably wouldn't be suited for the one you're at, but it would be great for many people.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is what's in the Hoffmans 'complete' feed
Hoofpic - To many people 'grain' means things like oats, barley, wheat and corn (maize) - cereal crops.
The Hoffmans doesn't contain any of those things other than some wheat middlings which form the pellets that everything else is bound into.
Its got no actual amounts but lists several different oils - not sure why it says linseed and flax as they're the same thing
While the horse doesn't need a large amount of feed I see no problem in putting a handful of this with a few sliced carrots in his bucket for when he comes in

*Guaranteed Analysis*
Crude Protein (Min.) 14.0% Salt (Actual) 0.45%
Crude Fat (Min.) 8.0% Vitamin A (Min.) 36,000 IU/kg
Crude Fiber (Max.) 19.0% Vitamin D3 (Min.) 5,000 IU/kg
Calcium (Actual) 2.0% Vitamin E (Min.) 400 IU/kg
Phosphorus (Actual) 1.4% Sodium (Actual) 0.4%
This feed contains added selenium at 1.35 mg/kg.
Hoffman's Horse Ration Ingredients
Soybean Hulls, Steel Cut Flax, Stabilized Rice Bran, Linseed Meal, Wheat Mill Run, Canola Meal, Malt Sprouts, Diamond V Yeast, Canola Oil, Binder, Limestone, Di-Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Bicarbonate, Salt, Magnesium Oxide, Lysine, Methionine, Threonine, Choline, Vitmin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Methionine, Mangous Oxide, Manganese Methionine, Copper sulfate, Copper Lysine, Potassium iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Sodium Selenite (selenium), Diamond V Organic Selenium, Biotin, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Folic acid, Vitamin B12, Vitamin K, Pyridoxine, Niacin.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

After reading all of your first posts, I do think he is just calmly expressing what he thinks is best for you and your horse. I have no sense that he is being aggressive or anything of the sort - I see, however, that he IS more experienced than you are and knows what's best. This isn't said to be mean or to call you out for being less knowledgable, but he is an experienced trainer and it sounds like he is truly just giving you some good advice. I think, instead of taking the criticism so harshly, look at it as a learning experience and try to ask as many questions as you can. Show him you're interested in learning. It sounds like it's a good place and he's a good guy. My trainer will always speak up about something if it's not right, as any good horseman would do. Keep your head up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've only once heard a vet tell someone to feed grain. It was a teenage girl who rode almost daily for four or five hours at a time and no rest stops with grazing. Horse was plumb wore out.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Relax......keep an open mind and allow him to help you. When you don't understand something ask, "why is this the case?" or "Why do you do it like this?" and the be quiet and listen. Don't be shy about confessing that you're ignorant about a certain subject. Ignorance is perfectly natural and totally acceptable. In fact, I respect the heck out of folks who are confident enough to admit what they don't know.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Ooo I like that Hoffmans uses Diamond V Organic Selenium!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Reread the Hoffmans bag. You misread it. They only thing that it says to feed per body weight is good quality of hay. I don't particularly like a pelleted feed especially when the main ingredient is soybean hulls.
If she were mine and maintaining her weight I would feed her a multivitamin mixed in some hay pellets. 
If you can stick it out and work through the awkwardness you might really like it there. Especially if the care is good. 
A good eye can see a horse gain and lose weight over a days time.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> I am green yes, but the good news is that I am continously learning and am a very quick learner. It wasnt long ago, I was just learning to tie a horse or put on a rope halter. And because I have more interest in horsemanship than riding, it would explain why I need practice putting on a saddle and bridle. Now that Ive already spent the last few months on horsemanship and refining what I know, its time I shift over to riding.
> 
> But my trainer gave me some to dos for the next while and that is to put on my horses bridle a few times a day if I can, same with the saddle...to get me practice but also get my horse more used to being tached up again. Cause she was pretty fresh when she rode her tonight, she wasnt used to having her bit in her mouth, her bridle on, a saddle on etc. It will take her some time to get her mindset back to being ridden again. But my trainer is fully confident in me being able to catch on quickly in terms of saddling, bridling etc.
> 
> ...


Most people don't have a clue and think of it as a treat after work. They are better to be fed at regular intervals and not after being worked. This is a great multivitamin and it isnt synthetic. DePaolo Equine Concepts Â· Essential


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

It was a very good night, will go more in detail when i get home. BO and I are back on good terms. Hes not upset at me.

Got pics, i do think she has gained a bit of weight since arriving. Not terrible but maybe 10-20lbs. I will post a pic of her from 2 weeks ago at the old barn and from tonight.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I can't find an ingredient list/percentages on their Horse Ration. Always makes me suspicious when a company isn't up front about what's in their feed. NOT saying it isn't good feed, it may be. I've heard real good things about their minerals.


Not sure why they wouldnt show their ingredients. 

I just know before I went with their feed, I called the owners of their product and they said their feed is a must for every horse. I have to admit their testimonials on their site are impressive.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> I always take what companies claim about their products with a grain of salt.
> 
> For example, you know the stuff called "Cool Calories"? It's supposed to be a supplement for weight gain and "focused energy." My best friend tried it with her TB gelding because he needed something extra to maintain his weight, but he gets incredibly hot on most grains. Yeah, two weeks of feeding Cool Calories and he was an absolute mess. Switched him back to Purina Strategy Healthy Edge and he was calmer...still hot, but not the absolute bat-crap insane that he was on the Cool Calories (it was when he was on the Cool Calories that he tried to kick me in the head for shooing him out of my space).


Im curious to see if my mare becomes calmer after a couple weeks of no grain. Whats the best way to tell?



Saskia said:


> You're righty about a lot of Self care people feeding "grain" after they ride. I know I do.
> 
> There are a couple reasons for it. First it's the only time we are out there - it's not like there is a choice of when to feed so you either feed when you ride or you don't feed at all. Second, I do it as a kind of treat for my horse, he's been ridden or brought in or whatever and then he gets something tasty. Mine only gets about three handfuls. Third is that hay is hard to feed self care. You've got to store it, transport it and then stand around for hours while they eat. In most cases it's just not feasible. "Grain" feeds are very high in calories and relatively quick for the horse to eat. Finally, at self care places many of them are just in it for the money, many I would see the barn owner once a month or so. This often means they don't put money into having a good pasture, improving it etc. So the supplemental feeding is needed.
> 
> ...


But its better to feed a horse grain everyday or no grain at all. Keeps their diet consistent and no risk of colic.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jaydee said:


> This is what's in the Hoffmans 'complete' feed
> Hoofpic - To many people 'grain' means things like oats, barley, wheat and corn (maize) - cereal crops.
> The Hoffmans doesn't contain any of those things other than some wheat middlings which form the pellets that everything else is bound into.
> Its got no actual amounts but lists several different oils - not sure why it says linseed and flax as they're the same thing
> ...


I dont see how it would be bad to feed her a handful a day either. Talking with the BO tonight and he said after he looked into the feed, he said its not nearly as bad as he initially thought it was. He said that he would still keep my horse off grain but if I give her a little bit everyday it shouldnt be an issue cause its fat based and not starch based.


----

So here is what happened tonight. 

I got to the barn and he was sitting outside on his quad, I thought oh great....hope hes not ****ed at me. I immediately went up, greeted him etc etc...and he pretty much jumped right out to say that he didnt mean to come across that way last night if I took things the wrong way and that he was just looking out for my horse and I. He said that hes noticed that she has gained a bit of weight since arriving and he just wants to prevent her from getting fat.

I told him I understood and I thanked him for his advice and that I will be taking my mare off grain. We talked for almost an hour, he was talking to me about horses, what he picked up from his observations in last nights lesson when my trainer rode my horse. He knows his stuff. I said that I am grateful for his advice and he can speak what ever is on his mind. Being honest cause I really do take his advice seriously cause this man knows what he is talking about.

Here is a pic from 2 weeks ago at the old barn.










And tonight. I didnt work her today but I put her bridle on (as I got her a new bit 2 days ago) while I groomed her so she can get used to it some more.










__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Since you maybe don't get access to grass all year round you should think about a Vit A supplement in the winter months, its one of the essentials for a healthy immune system, hay doesn't retain it for long after its made and once the horses stored vitamin A is depleted it becomes deficient and more prone to infections especially things like rain rot and scratches


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Since you maybe don't get access to grass all year round you should think about a Vit A supplement in the winter months, its one of the essentials for a healthy immune system, hay doesn't retain it for long after its made and once the horses stored vitamin A is depleted it becomes deficient and more prone to infections especially things like rain rot and scratches


Ya Ive been thinking about getting her on a really good multivitamin or boost her Vit A. One of the boarders at the old barn suggested to me a really good performance vitamin called Bio X? She said its amazing, expensive but well worth it.

Anyone familiar with Bio X vitamins?

How does feeding vitamins to horses work? Is it powder form? I definitely want to keep her on high Vit A in the winters.

This is what was great about Hoffmans, it was super high in Vit A.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You have a nice mare, and the BO is correct, she is on the verge of fat, not there yet, but if you keep giving her extra, unneeded calories, she will be. Fat is just as unhealthy as thin, but as a society, we like chubby animals, go figure, because we prefer thin humans, chubby is frowned upon, odd.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

waresbear said:


> You have a nice mare, and the BO is correct, she is on the verge of fat, not there yet, but if you keep giving her extra, unneeded calories, she will be. Fat is just as unhealthy as thin, but as a society, we like chubby animals, go figure, because we prefer thin humans, chubby is frowned upon, odd.


I think it has to be the new hay, cause from what i notice her barrel wasnt as wide when I left the old barn.

BO pretty much said the same thing, shes got a bit of padding on the sides of her barrel that just sits there. Big props to the BO for noticing this and mentioning it to me. Like I said, this man just cares for horses, it doesnt matter if he owns the horse, I can tell he lives and breathes horses. 

Dropping her off grain should prevent her from getting bigger. And yes, poor girl was hoping I would be feeding her some tonight.

Even though shes only been on 2lbs/day of grain for two days, the past week shes been on 1.75lbs and the week before 1.5lbs. So that right there could have played a factor as well.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

The reason why I was able to safely give her 1lb of grain for 2 months at the old barn while on 4.5 flakes of their straw hay without her gaining too much weight (she did gain weight from when I got her to when we left the first barn, but when I got her, she was also a bit underfed and could use a few more lbs) is because it was garbage hay compared to what shes on now.

Here are pics from over a month ago at the old barn. She looks fine here rright? Dont go off her belly as from looking at her older pics, she has always had a curvy belly.








\


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

OP, just listen and learn from your BO, you hit the jackpot when you changed barns. I have a feeling he is going to be the best thing for you and your horse. Don't stress so much about him watching you do stuff, he wants to help you, do what you do and he will correct you or show you a better way of doing it. Enjoy yourself, most novice horse owners would give their eyeteeth to be in your barn!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Corporal said:


> Smilie, do you think that it's sometimes a better idea for larger feeding at night, when the daytime temperatures are really hot?



Hi Corporal

I try to simulate as much as I can, how horses were designed to eat, although , of course that is not always possible
Horses evolved to eat almost constantly, medium quality forage ( nutritionally, speaking, not condition wise), while moving to find that forage
Of course that amount of movement is not possible for most domesticated horses, and horses can adapt to some deviations, but having an empty stomach for too long, sets a horse up for ulcers, as unlike us, the stomach of a horse constantly secretes HCL, and not just at meal times.
Of course, there is the other end of the spectrum, with a horse just sitting at a hay feeder all day, or not knowing when to limit his grazing, combined with hardly any exercise, and grazing on pastures with en- riched grasses for cattle

Bare with me , if I seem to be rambling! 
I do use slow feeder hay nets, esp over night, and that does simulate grazing to some degree, allowing the horse small intakes of hay over a longer period of time. So, while I do feed a larger hay meal at night, I feed in in a manner that takes the horse more time to eat it
I can thus hang those nets around 8PM, and not go out to do chores until about 9:30 the next morning 
Then, there is the other end of the coin, and I use grazing muzzles on the easy keepers, so they obviously can't take those big mouth fulls of grass
It is not the amount that is in the stomach that counts, but just a little most of the time
Obviously, even in the wild, horses sleep, rest or just exercise, so I'm not trying to say that they have to have food in front of them at all times=just not some schedule where they are fed just twice a day, including concentrates, thus a lot of food dumped at one time into the gut-then empty
There also have been studies, that show, if horses have feed available most of the time, food aggression is almost nil, plus the horses learn to self regulate
I have noticed this with Smilie, in particular, who is dry lotted
She has her feeder with hay in it, most of the time, but will eat, then spend some time sleeping /resting, go back and eat a bit more, and so on
The bugs also help me regulate grazing time with the main herd! When those bugs get really active, my horses spend a good part of the day in the shelter
In winter, I feed hay twice a day only, but all of the horses are turned out, and there is lots of forage under the snow in all of the pastures, so they spend a good part of the day pawing and moving, while foraging.

Generally, when feeding horses, I find that the KISS principle applies. 
I thus don't buy any bags of horse formulated feeds. I do buy beet pulp
I feed horses as individuals , and always make sure that forage is the main part of their diet. Free choice minerals, salt and suppliment only if needed, and what an individual horse requires

Somewhere in the above essay, I hope I answered your simple question! Sorry about the long winded reply,but horse nutrition has become a major concern for me, having learned the hard way, esp when it came to feeding lots of NSC, because I bought into the idea that show horses in particular, needed to be fed that way!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpick
Im curious to see if my mare becomes calmer after a couple weeks of no grain. Whats the best way to tell?'
Answer:
You are not feeding grain, ie hot calories. Since cool calories don't cause a horse to get a 'sugar high', I doubt you will see any difference
Hot calories come from grain-like oats. Hot calories are also called NSC (non structural carbohydrates, and include sugar and starch

That Hoffmans feed uses cool calories (fats )


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

If he does true quarantine, then the new horse should never leave its stall and attached paddock, if it has one. 
Being alowed to walk around and use the random facilities is not QT. Other horses will and can pick up nasties from the things the new horse touches or slobbers on. 

If you have concerns, talk to him about it! Don't just keep quiet and make up things in your head. 

Does this barn have their ow farrier? I hate the feet on that dark horse in the back of you first pictures. Also, your horse and that dark one have no top line. In other pictures, your horse has a bit of a better top line. Ask your trainer how to build it up. Fat can show a false top line as well. 

Your horse should be on a loose mineral designed for how your horse lives and eats. 
My horses are on pasture 24/7 and they only get hay in winter. They have a loose mineral designed for pastured horses, then a salt block. They do not need grain, they are not worked enough to need it and they aren't breeding. 

A ration balancer should be totally acceptable for you to feed daily along with they hay. BO should be ok with that, since it's not grain. Or he may want you to just use loose minerals instead. If he's against both, he's in the wrong. Hay alone is never 100% balanced.

I personally don't think horses should be stationary for long periods of time nor go several hours without grazing or hay. I do not like how the BO treats horses like people and dogs, with few set meals. Ask to see if you can bring in your own hay so your horse can always snack and keep her gut moving. Low quality grass hay should be fine to use in between of his fancy hay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Manga, the dark horse you're referring to is at the OP's previous barn.

As for the constant access to hay, yes it's ideal, but it's not always possible. At my barn, unless I want to pay $60 more a month for a stall that 1) my horse will never go into (he hates barn stalls) and 2) will probably be too small for him, I can't put up a hay net unless I want him fighting his two turnout mates for it. It sounds like once the OP's mare is out of QT, she will be going into a herd/pasture setting and will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

waresbear said:


> OP, just listen and learn from your BO, you hit the jackpot when you changed barns. I have a feeling he is going to be the best thing for you and your horse. Don't stress so much about him watching you do stuff, he wants to help you, do what you do and he will correct you or show you a better way of doing it. Enjoy yourself, most novice horse owners would give their eyeteeth to be in your barn!


I feel the same way, I feel this move was quite possibly the best decision Ive made for not just my mare but me too.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Hoofpick
> Im curious to see if my mare becomes calmer after a couple weeks of no grain. Whats the best way to tell?'
> Answer:
> You are not feeding grain, ie hot calories. Since cool calories don't cause a horse to get a 'sugar high', I doubt you will see any difference
> ...


So are you saying its safe to keep her on the Hoffmans?

But this Hoffmans is still calories isnt it? In other words, if she gets too much she will pack on weight.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Manga said:


> If he does true quarantine, then the new horse should never leave its stall and attached paddock, if it has one.
> Being alowed to walk around and use the random facilities is not QT. Other horses will and can pick up nasties from the things the new horse touches or slobbers on.
> 
> If you have concerns, talk to him about it! Don't just keep quiet and make up things in your head.
> ...


The dark bay in the old barn is a jumping horse, she gets worked 5 times a week. What do you know, her farrier is the same one that did two lazy *** jobs on my horses feet. I no longer use him. He was recommended by the half lease trainer who jumps that dark bay in the picture.

Yes my barn now has their own farrier. Havent met her yet. Will either use her or the guy who I used last time (to fix my horses feet from the lazy farrier previously).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, calories, hot or cool, will both pack on weight, if fed beyond daily requirements.
Yes, that Hoffman's feed has cool calories, thus will not make a horse hot, like feeding hot calories. However, cool calories, fed in excess, will add weight, same as hot.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> no no my horse is a mare and she doesnt give me attitude about food. She just gets excited for the grain. Last night she was waiting for me to bring it out after the lesson and I didnt. She wasnt pushy, just dissapointed and probably wondering where it is.


I don't see anything wrong with giving your horse a bit of grain. Some of mine don't need grain but still get 1/8 of a pound twice a day with supplements. It's more of a treat. If your BO has a problem with grain then feed chopped carrots or something, your horse will still be happy.
When a boarder comes in I ask them what weight they would like their horse to be at. Unless it's extreme I do as they want as it's not my horse to decide.

I feed 4X/day unless they are on pasture, then only 2x, the last 2 being after they come from pasture & the last 1 is a late night feeding in Nibble Nets. They do take more time to fill than just tossing hay but still no big deal. Your BO probably wouldn't like you to use one even if you filled it yourself only because then everyone would want one too.

You may be new at this but you don't sound like a dummy. All you're asking is to feel comfortable when you see your horse & with the constant eyes on treatment I know I wouldn't be comfortable. I applaud your patience.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Yes, calories, hot or cool, will both pack on weight, if fed beyond daily requirements.
> Yes, that Hoffman's feed has cool calories, thus will not make a horse hot, like feeding hot calories. However, cool calories, fed in excess, will add weight, same as hot.


Okay, well 2lbs is definitely too much for her and Id say even 1lb (at this point seeing how shes on top grade hay) could be too much as well. Her transitioning over from straw hay to top grade hay just about single handedly eliminated the need for grain.

Maybe a handful of Hoffmans a day? That shouldnt effect her weight at all. Handful would be like a 1/3lb if that.

My BO said last night that after he looked into the Hoffmans, that its not nearly as bad of a product as he initially thought just because its not a hot feed and that if I wanted to feed her a bit everyday I should be fine but still he would keep her off grain altogether so that she doesnt continue to gain weight.

What I might do is, feed her in a smaller bucket, give her a handful of Hoffmans every night with a couple carrots every few days.

I feed carrots but two max and maybe 2-3 times a week. How often can you feed carrots without it being too much? 

I know boarders at the old barn who would feed their horses 3-4 big carrots every single day. All that sugar cant be good for them. Every day seems a bit much no?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Would it be safe to feed her carrots and apples every couple days.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Would it be safe to feed her carrots and apples every couple days.


Depends. Horses are big animals. Are you talking a couple of carrots and an apple or 10 carrots and 10 apples? The first one, sure you could feed her a carrot and an apple every day or eve 2 or 3 carrots/day. A medium carrot is 25 calories. A medium apple is 95 calories. None of that will hurt her. A handful of Hoffmans feed (1 cup for lack of better expression) wouldn't hurt her but would be higher in calories.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Depends. Horses are big animals. Are you talking a couple of carrots and an apple or 10 carrots and 10 apples? The first one, sure you could feed her a carrot and an apple every day or eve 2 or 3 carrots/day. A medium carrot is 25 calories. A medium apple is 95 calories. None of that will hurt her. A handful of Hoffmans feed (1 cup for lack of better expression) wouldn't hurt her but would be higher in calories.


When Ive fed her carrots before, its usually 2 big carrots max per day. Apple, usually half an apple a day. ANd I didnt feed either very often, but now that I need to stop or cut back on her Hoffmans, I want something to make up for it.

Hoffmans, I think even 1lb per day is too much for her. I gave her a handful yyesterday after working her and it measured to be 0.25lbs. You think that should be fine per day or I should just follow what the BO said and that was (even though a little bit of grain should be fine on her even though she has gained weight since arriving there), if it was him, he would stop feeding her hoffmans altogether. Though 0.25lbs per day isnt much really.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> When Ive fed her carrots before, its usually 2 big carrots max per day. Apple, usually half an apple a day. ANd I didnt feed either very often, but now that I need to stop or cut back on her Hoffmans, I want something to make up for it.
> 
> Hoffmans, I think even 1lb per day is too much for her. I gave her a handful yyesterday after working her and it measured to be 0.25lbs. You think that should be fine per day or I should just follow what the BO said and that was (even though a little bit of grain should be fine on her even though she has gained weight since arriving there), if it was him, he would stop feeding her hoffmans altogether. Though 0.25lbs per day isnt much really.


If you want to feed her a treat at the end of a day, she's your horse you go ahead and you do it. If she packs on too many pounds, then you can always quit, but I don't think it will hurt her. Just understand you are doing it for you and not for her. Not that she doesn't enjoy it and look forward to it, but she doesn't need it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Hey Hoofpic, I read about 5 pages but then quit... I think everyone has covered it except maybe one small detail. The BO clearly means well and knows his business, but maybe he doesn't have the best bedside manners. This is on him, not on you. You're doing your best and questioning yourself and he's being fairly harsh.

From his point of view, he wants to be direct and do the best he can for his horses and boarders and frankly, probably doesn't have a lot of patience for people who are still learning. As a teacher, I feel his pain and frustration.

From your perspective, you are sincerely doing the best you can and feel you're losing your confidence around him. I get that. I try not to make my own students feel that way, but I'm sure I do sometimes.

So this is not all you, it's also him not knowing how to express things so that he will bring you on board as a "student" rather than make you feel like crap. 

That said, everything else everyone says is also true, so while he may not have the best way of saying things, if you can get past that, it will be worth it. But I don't need to say that - you've clearly already put aside your own hurt feelings so you can learn to improve. That tells me a lot about your level of commitment and dedication.  You'll be fine.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

The way I see it, he is very involved in the care of the horses on his place and his reputation speaks for itself. So, you can either do as he says or move the horse. Being a green rider with a green horse, I would advise that you stay and absorb every word the man has to say. He may not be touchy feely or say thing to you in a way you like all the time, but it sounds like he's trying to help you.


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