# chestnut x chestnut = palomino!?



## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

She's cute. The _only_ way to be certain would be a test. However, it is not uncommon for colors to be listed wrong on papers. Do you have a pic of the sire? There is no way for cream to skip a generation (that I know of. If it's there, it's expressed.). Expression can vary greatly due to many factors, including sooty... She does look palomino to me which would make me guess that her sire was indeed a palomino, regardless of registration papers unless you have a pic that is definitely a chestnut.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it isn't possible. Red x red ALWAYS = red. The cream gene does not/cannot hide on a red based horse. There is some fibbing going on somewhere there....


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

her breeder is well known and i've never heard anything shady about them. she's also fully registered as is her sire and dam... hense the confusion... she does have chestnut markings on her stomach. one of my friends suggested she is sun bleached but i have a photo of her when she was a foal and she's still a pally in that photo.

everyone seems to be at a complete loss as to how she turned out the way she did - even the society which she is registered with.

i sadly do not have any photos of her dam and sire and she no longer belongs to me as I sold her 4 weeks ago  it's just been bugging me ever since i bought her 3 years ago.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

She looks palomino to me too... However, we all know that phenotypes can lie to us. Not saying that is the case here, but just throwing it out there because I like to be Devil's Advocate *wicked grin*


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ooooh post the baby photo!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I have had a bay arab that was registered as Grey, he was the product of a chestnut and a grey. 

i also have had a smokey buckskin that was the product of a stallion registered as black and a grey mare.

Unless you have seen photos of the parents then it may well be that one of thier papers is wrong


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Do you have any pictures of the parents? I wonder if one is a dark palomino but mistaken for a flaxen chestnut?

I don't know much about what lines carry the barlink gene, but that might be what is going on here. If a horse carries only one barlink gene they will look like a normal chestnut, but if they inherit both barlink genes they will look palomino. 

Faye - the grey horses you are talking about is a completely different situation. Grey covers everything because its dominant to all other colors. The dilution genes that would come into play with the OP's issue are recessive. Opposite issue. The resulting colors you list are completely possible with those parents, but a chestnutXchestnut typically can only equal chestnut unless there is the barlink gene or someone is misidentified.


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

i just dont see how the paint association of australia who requires photo id of a horse and in the stallions case - dna - could have gotten his colour wrong...

and his dam is a chestnut thoroughbred so there cant really be a mistake on her side....

this is the little chubba as a foal


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

could she be a light flaxen chestnut by any chance? i mean she always looked pally to me but until her i was always a bay/chestnut girl and despised coloured horses.. she rather changed my opinion of that. i really quite like them now lol


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

cat I was trying to point out that the parents could have been registered wrong. my BAY arab was registered as a grey.

The black stallion was actualy a very dark smokey Bay but looked black so was registered as black since the breed registery does not accept buckskin or smokey as a colour. My smokey buckskin was registered as a chocolate Dun simply because of the registrys rules, Despite the fact that connemaras do not carry the dun gene. The connemara society (UK one) does not accept cremes or pallys dispite the fact that the pure bred lines do carry the creme modifier!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Completely off topic, but I love your name. I have read nearly all of the Brumby books


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

Chiilaa - mine??

i've never read them... i used to be in love with this stud farm that had gorgeous ponies and their stable name was Wingana - i've kind of stolen it and used it ever since lol saw the ad in HorseDeals when I was a kid.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I think the registries are all moving to DNA testing because of color confusion. Many colts are born one color and begin to change with the first shedding of baby hair. But their color has already been noted on the registration. Apps are notorious for starting out as solids. Many start roaning out, a process that lasts it's lifetime.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Oh lol. Winganna is a character in one of the Brumby books written by Elyne Mitchell. You probably have heard of them - they started with The Silver Brumby.


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Oh lol. Winganna is a character in one of the Brumby books written by Elyne Mitchell. You probably have heard of them - they started with The Silver Brumby.


most definitely heard of them - i think we have the whole series somewhere in my house... i've just never read them myself  the things you learn every day! maybe the stud named their place after the books!?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Maybe


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> I think the registries are all moving to DNA testing because of color confusion. Many colts are born one color and begin to change with the first shedding of baby hair. But their color has already been noted on the registration. Apps are notorious for starting out as solids. Many start roaning out, a process that lasts it's lifetime.


 Not in the Uk they arn't!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Besides that, Faye, the registries that are using DNA in the US aren't using it for colour testing anyway. It's parentage testing that is all they want.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Oh the breed societies in the UK are using DNA for parentage but they dont use it for colour


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Registries are notorious for being decades behind in colour knowledge anyway.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Registries in the US aren't using the DNA for color either... it's all parent verification.


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

well i dont know what they did with her sires dna but all i know is he's a chestnut paint... she's a palomino paint and her dam is a solid chestnut tb...

go figure >_<'


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Registries can only go on what they see in the pics and the owner tells them. 
I'm picking up a QH mare today that was registered brown... considering that I'm also picking up her perlino filly that would be difficult. 
Actually I got them dna verified. Mom is Ee aa nCr and baby is EE Aa CrCr.


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

Crossover said:


> Registries can only go on what they see in the pics and the owner tells them.
> I'm picking up a QH mare today that was registered brown... considering that I'm also picking up her perlino filly that would be difficult.
> Actually I got them dna verified. Mom is Ee aa nCr and baby is EE Aa CrCr.


so even though her sires papers say he's a chestnut paint his dna could prove he's something different...

or she could be registered as pally but not be...

correct?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Pretty much.

If sire was truly a chestnut and dam truly a chestnut there would be no other option for you filly than chestnut/sorrel.


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## Ladyreiner (Jul 23, 2009)

My first though was the pearl gene could be at play here.. them I saw your pictures.. no way.. the pearl gene will not turn manes and tails blond.. it merely gives a sorrel coat a peachy sheen..
Reputable or not the breeder has messed up somewhere.. the creme gene does not skip generations. one of her parents carries a creme gene.. no other option is possible..have her tested..
now you say she is a paint.. is she registered APHA..? If she is there will be DNA on file for the sire and dam..

you state the stud didn't have any palominostallions at the time.. the sire or dam wouldn't have to be palomino.. just has to carry the cream gene.. 
A sorrel horse with cream is palomino
A bay horse with cream is buckskin 
a black horse with Cream is smoky black..
and there are a million other options when you start playing with genetics..
What you mare got from her parents is the red gene and the cream gene.. that's what makes her palomino..
Good luck.. if you share with us her pedigree, i may be able to give you a tad more insight..


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

wingana said:


> so even though her sires papers say he's a chestnut paint his dna could prove he's something different...
> 
> or she could be registered as pally but not be...
> 
> correct?


Is it possible for you to be able to track down a picture of either one of her parents? 

Also, for example: My BOs just got an AQHA mare that's registered as a blue roan. She's a brown rabicano. My mare's dam's parents are also registered as black and chestnut. She's a buckskin. Her sire, grandsire, and greatgrandsire are all registered black but have to be smoky black in order to get the cream gene.


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

Do you know the sire and dams registered name?


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

the sire is Steppas Bar Room Romeo registration number 4672 listed on the paint horse association as chestnut overo born 1997 still active in stud duties

found this googling his name a while back:
Steppas Bar Room Romeo Paint

her dam is Glance A Munda - chestnut tb mare born 1985 registration number 232-904
Glance a Munda Horse Pedigree


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

my assumptions are that the sire or dam. is a palomino. and someone assumed the horse was a flaxen chesnut. palominos can be super dark. especially with sooty.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Ummm...Your horse is gorgeous. And I want her. Yesterday. LoL. 

She is also definitely palomino. And either the sire was registered wrong. Or here is another option. How long did they own the dam? It's possible they purchased her, thinking she was open, but she was bred to a previous stud. The mare let a stud at the new place mount her, so they thought she was bred to the new stud, when she actually was already pregnant. Which would explain why they think that the stallion they bred her to, is actually the sire.

Either that, or the previous owners are lying to you. Which isn't uncommon, even if they are reputable.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

This may be the issue. I know in the past that you could only register a TB as a Black, Bay, Chesnut, or gray. The Arabs are still registered that way. 
Perhaps the dam is indeed a palomino but was registered as a chesnut.
In fact it was only earlier this year that I have seen a palomino or cremello TB. Since the mares base colour even if a palomino would be red then that may explain it.
I however am with the Arab registries on this one, I am not interested in all these dilutes and new found spot patterns. Call me old fashioned but I will keep things as simple as possible. LOL
The DNA involved in all these colours and coat patterns is interesting and very informative. Just too time consuming for me. Shalom


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## arrowsaway (Aug 31, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Registries are notorious for being decades behind in colour knowledge anyway.


this. with the TWHBEA, you can still call your horse a yellow roan. wth is that? :-|

on my boy's registry, his sire is listed as a chestnut. however, when you google his name and come up with images, he is CLEARLY a black horse. yours was probably a paperwork error, too.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Arrowsaway - there are liver chestnuts out there that are so very, very dark they appear black. Are you sure you guy's sire isn't one of those?


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

It's very possible that she IS Sorrel/Chesnut! I know an Arab names Icon Flair that is chesnut but almost looks palomino

Icon Flair


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> This may be the issue. I know in the past that you could only register a TB as a Black, Bay, Chesnut, or gray. The Arabs are still registered that way.
> Perhaps the dam is indeed a palomino but was registered as a chesnut.
> In fact it was only earlier this year that I have seen a palomino or cremello TB. Since the mares base colour even if a palomino would be red then that may explain it.
> I however am with the Arab registries on this one, I am not interested in all these dilutes and new found spot patterns. Call me old fashioned but I will keep things as simple as possible. LOL
> The DNA involved in all these colours and coat patterns is interesting and very informative. Just too time consuming for me. Shalom


lol dont worry i was brought up exactly the same way. until Paris i wouldnt give a coloured horse a second glance. i'd see their for sale ads and skip right on over. but since owning her i've come to appreciate coloured horses a whole lot more. i do love my arab x though


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## wingana (Mar 15, 2012)

myhorsesonador said:


> It's very possible that she IS Sorrel/Chesnut! I know an Arab names Icon Flair that is chesnut but almost looks palomino
> 
> Icon Flair


wow he really does look kinda pally! a dark pally but he's very nice.

i'll get onto her breeders again and see if i can finally get a hold of those pictures.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Another non palomino that can pass for palomino
Arabian Stallions


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have a QH mare here with a bald face and 2 very high stockings on her forelegs. Her registration papers show her stockings ending well below her knees. In reality they do not.
It is my belief that the breeders did not want the QH regustry questioning them about her eligiblity. 
years ago you could not register a cremello or a perlino as a QH. There are still QH breeders that do not like excessive white on their foals. 
TB breeders are as old fashioned as QH breeders if not more so. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I would say that unless you have DNA verified the mare for yourself (or have known the mare since birth) DB that you don't have the mare that papers state you do...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

NDAppy I am certain it is the correct mare. I have the DNA verification and I have talked to the breeder. Like I said most old time QH breeders frown on excessive white and the breeder is now 78 years old.
She is now 13 so that is about the time the AQHA changed the rules about white. Shalom


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Um - could there have been a fence jumper in there somewhere? If the registerd sire is absolutely red as is the registered dam, by process of elimination doesn't that mean that maybe there was some unrecorded hanky panky? I have know quite a few stallions who managed to be someplace they weren't supposed to be... hehehehe


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## arrowsaway (Aug 31, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Arrowsaway - there are liver chestnuts out there that are so very, very dark they appear black. Are you sure you guy's sire isn't one of those?


This is smoke's sire. Pretty sure that's a black horse. lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol Yep that's Black. Didn't know your horse's breeding/sire that is why I put that out there. :wink:


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> NDAppy I am certain it is the correct mare. I have the DNA verification and I have talked to the breeder. Like I said most old time QH breeders frown on excessive white and the breeder is now 78 years old.
> She is now 13 so that is about the time the AQHA changed the rules about white. Shalom


I'm not sure about 13 years ago but I am positive in the past 10 years or so that when registering a foal the owner had to send in four pictures, conformation shots, when registering the horse..AQHA also checks the markings and the little "horse" coloring sheet that you fill in when you send in the registry form. I highly doubt AQHA would mess up and let the white markings differ much at all from the actual horse and the sheet the owner fills out..

I'll call tomorrow to make sure..


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Allow me to clarify. The white markings on the registration papers stop at just below the knee. The white markings on the mares forelegs come to mid knee on both legs. the white is only about 2 inchesto 3 inches difference.
This is not my first QH and my family has bred them for over 50 years, It is the same mare.
Thanks for worrying but I assure you I am not. Shalom


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