# Colour of foal



## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

just wondering what people think my foal may come out being mares sire is chestnut overo and her dam I think Is a bay I don't know any history of the stallion. Mare is the bay overo


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Without knowing if the stallion is EE (homozygous black) or Ee (heterzygous black), your possibilities are black, bay and chestnut (but only chestnut if the stallion in heterzygous black). All with varying degrees of white expression. (The mare is definitely frame, but her face white almost makes me want to say splash as well...the stallion is tobiano, frame, and splash, I think).


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

does it help at all knowing some of his other foals hes thrown?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Has he thrown any chestnut foals that you're aware of?


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

yes a solid chestnut to a paint mare and a chestnut and white to a solid chestnut mare


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Then he's heterzygous black.

So, your possibilities are black, bay, and chestnut. 

Being that the mare's frame and the stallion is most likely frame as well, I guess you'll just have to cross your fingers and pray that you don't end up with a LWO foal.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

can he carry that gene as well I thought It was only overos that carry the gene for LWO, or is that what the frame means I'm still figuring out the colours and genes side of things


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Overo is a blanket term basically meaning "all white patterns that aren't tobiano." It includes splash, frame, and sabino. Overo and tobiano are not mutually exclusive. A horse can be both tobiano and one or more of the overo patterns. My gelding, for example, is tobiano, frame, splash and sabino. 

LWO *is* frame. The scary thing about frame is that it can hide. There was a member on here who had a mare who had a tiny star on her forehead as her only white. The member had her tested and she came back as positive for frame. You never would have been able to tell just by looking at her. Frame to frame breeding results in a 25% chance that the foal will be LWO (since frame is only lethal in its homozygous form).


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

that makes me a bit more nervous


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Drafty has got it... Chestnut, bay or black... With or without white and pray to whatever deity you believe in that you don't get a lethal white foal! LWO can hide quite effectively, so all horses with paint history should be tested for it before breeding for safety reasons.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

so is it almost guaranteed that my mare carries the gene or is there a possibility that she may not I'll have to talk to the previous owners and see if she ever got her tested as she used her for breeding


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

She probably does, but it's not a guarantee. I have a mare who is marked similarly to yours and she does not though I was told she was frame by the breeder I got her from. I would test her on my own, that way you KNOW what's going on.

The fact she was used for breeding means nothing. One of the well known "dirty" secrets of color breeders is that many of them will breed 2 frames together to get color because it's "only" a 25% chance of an LWO foal.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

she's 7 months pregnant so is not going to change much but knowing if she does or doesn't would stop me stressing now so much


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Stallion also could though... He may be a tovero from the white under his jaw.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

No way to know 100% without the test unless you have a super obvious frame horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Krida said:


> she's 7 months pregnant so is not going to change much but knowing if she does or doesn't would stop me stressing now so much


It's not going to change anything, but it will give you peace of mind if she's not. The mare I bought hadn't been tested, though I was told she had been, and I was thrilled to see that solid colt come out of there. Never been so happy to see a foal with no color. Once I tested her and found out for sure, I now know that I can breed her safely to an frame stallion if I choose and not stress like I did with that first foal.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Yeah I understand the stallion may carry it but if by some miracle my mare didn't carry it I'd be safe? The peace of mind would be nice but if it comes back positive I'm going to stress even more being able to test for it before it's born would be nice!! but I guess just going to have to wait and see what comes out


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

If only one of the parents is frame, then there's no cause for worry. So, if you test her and she's negative, then it doesn't matter if he's got frame. If she is positive for frame, then you have to keep the possibility of a LWO foal in the back of your mind, as the stallion is an unknown since he hasn't been tested (and it doesn't sound likely that he will be).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Krida said:


> Yeah I understand the stallion may carry it but if by some miracle my mare didn't carry it I'd be safe? The peace of mind would be nice but if it comes back positive I'm going to stress even more being able to test for it before it's born would be nice!! but I guess just going to have to wait and see what comes out


You can test the mare before the foal is born. All you need to do is to send some tail hair to the lab and have them test her DNA. If she doesn't carry, you know you are safe. I'd also ask the stallion owner if he's ever been tested, and if so what the results were. This is who I use in the US, not sure if they do any international testing. 

Animal Genetics


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

no the stallion would never be tested the owner doesn't believe in vets! I did so much research before breeding and thought I was safe but it's all so much more confusing that I thought it was! and I meant being able to test the foal before birth to see if it was lethal white


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Krida said:


> no the stallion would never be tested the owner doesn't believe in vets! I did so much research before breeding and thought I was safe but it's all so much more confusing that I thought it was! and I meant being able to test the foal before birth to see if it was lethal white


No, there's no test that I'm aware of to do the testing on the foal in utero. Test your mare and find out for sure if she is a frame carrier, and then make your plans accordingly. With the foal, if its LWO, you'll know in less than 72 hrs. Overo lethal white syndrome (OLWS) : Horse : University of Minnesota Extension


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

No, there in no amniotic testing for inutero foals. The best you can do is test the parents to know your odds on a Punnett square. And is the mare is negative, you can't have a lethal foal.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Yeah I will get the test done thanks for everyone's input wasn't what I was hoping for but at least I understand a bit better


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

it would not be a bad idea to have her get a 5 panel test while you are at it. 

Animal Genetics


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Ok so I got her tested and she came back positive but I got the foal's of the stallion mixed up the solid chestnut wasn't his but he's had a black and white to a solid brown mare and a chestnut and white to a chestnut mare does that change anything because hes never thrown a solid or doesnt matter because the chestnut still came from him? She's due in 2 weeks I'm just stressing now that I know


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If you have a chestnut foal the color will come from BOTH parents because it's a recessive that requires one copy of the gene from each parent. If the stallion carries Frame (Lethal White Overo) and you say your mare also carries it, you have a 25% chance of getting an LWO foal.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Yeah I understand that but what I mean is that because he's only ever thrown coloured foals even to solid mares is it much more likely that he is homozygous and doesn't carry the gene?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Do have access to the stallion ? If so, maybe ask the Owner if you can send in some hairs for the dna test. You of course would pay for it since the owner does not believe in Vets .. ( How does he keep his horses teeth floated and make sure the stallion does not have any venereal disease) 
and if he would not allow you to do this, then sneak some and not tell anyone ? Not really ethical , but it would give you piece of mind. I do not think it would be illegal , but I am not an attorney so I do not know... And then when your foal is born , and I hope it is a very healthy foal , pull the mane and it tested. 
Also Are they registered Paint ? He would have to DNA the stallion with the registry.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Krida said:


> yes a solid chestnut to a paint mare and a chestnut and white to a solid chestnut mare


This does not fit the description of the stallion only breeding solid mares and also conflicts with producing all tobianos as you stated that he produced a solid. You said that he produced a chestnut out of a paint mare, if she wasn't pinto marked then I would assume that you would have listed a paint mare as a solid mare. 

If the stallion produced a "solid chestnut" then you can be 99.99% certain that he is heterozygous tobiano. Half of his sperm would carry the tobiano gene and the other half would not carry tobiano, thus the 50/50 for tobiano. He is also heterozygous black, so you have another 50/50 for him passing the dominant black but as your mare is also black, your odds greatly increase for a black based foal. Depending on your mare's agouti status will determine your chances of bay (agouti present) or black (no agouti, like the stallion)


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

And as far as frame and tobiano go, as mentioned before, they are mutually exclusive, as in, unrelated. 

You can have a homozygous tobiano who also carries any number of additional "overo" genes including frame. Having two copies of the same pinto pattern gene will not interfere with having more pinto pattern genes. A homozygous splash can also carry frame as well as tobiano. There isn't a limit on the number of pinto patterns a horse can carry or inherit, otherwise it could be safer to breed frame carriers if they were homozygous for a different pattern but that isn't how it works.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Yes I mixed up the foals which I thought were his, I now know he has had a black and white to a solid brown, chestnut and white to solid chestnut, black and white to a bay and then last year was re bred to them and also a palomin, buckskin, and a paint and all came out coloured


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Wishing you luck for a healthy foal!


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

I bred my overo mare to a tobiano stud and got an overo. And considering he doesn't look overo to me I think you'll be okay, just try to see if you can get him tested for any future breedings for others.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Do you have a close up of the stallion? He's definitely tobiano and the evenness and uniformity of his face white makes me lean towards splash instead of frame, although either/or is still possible and it's really hard to see with that photo. He could also just be tobiano, but sometimes multiple patterns can disguise one another so it's tough to tell. Hoping everything goes well for you!


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Hes finally here very healthy and absolutely huge all the stressing is over


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Congratulations 
Please spam us with pictures, we love pictures of babies. Hope your mare is recovering well and that the delivery was uneventful


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## Eme1217 (Oct 27, 2014)

Congrats on the new baby!! Definitely post some pics!


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Sorry took me a while to figure out how to upload pictures ? was a bit of a hard delivery his shoulders got stuck but all turned out well in the end and he is absolutely insane and has the biggest attitude will be a fun boy when he's older


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

He's lovely!


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

He's pretty perfect apart from the attitude loves to kick but is so friendly he just cant make up his mind


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

He is adorable and no need to test for frame with him as he has typical frame markings! and it looks like he will be bay as well.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

He is a gorgeous dark bay/seal brown frame tobiano 

Hopefully he gets reprimanded for being naughty since it is easier to teach manners now.


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

I was hoping he'd stay dark but I don't think he will either hes very tan all underneath, yes he sure does the minute he turns his bum around on me he gets a good smack on the bum with the lead rope he's getting better and still hasn't figured out it's me smacking him ?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

LOVE his color!


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Thought you guys would like an updated photo of him he's 3 and a bit months and absolutely huge still!


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

He's huge!! Reminds me of when Cowboy was about 4 months lol! How tall is mom and baby?


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

I haven't measured him lately but he was 12.2hh at 10 weeks his mums 15.2hh


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm late, but he's a gorgeous guy!


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## Krida (Sep 16, 2014)

Finally measured him he's 13hh at 4 months!! He's gonna be big 
This is him next to his nanny, she's 14.2hh at the rate he's growing he'll be as tall as her by weaning


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