# Tennessee Walking Horse - Abuse In The Horse World



## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

New to horses and new here on the forums, so if this subject has been brought up before, sorry, I'm still doing a ton of back reading.

In my endever to learn more about horses and try to pick a horse that might be a good fit for me and my needs, a search on Google lead me to the Tennessee Walking Horse. I started to read about it, it's history I found interesting. And so I went to YouTube, wanting to see a few of them in action. What did I find? I found this video on YouTube:






This video shocked me. I thought people who show horses love horses. Never in my mind would I guess this was going on in the horse world. I have seen private horse owners abuse horses, and have hated it, made sure they didn't get away with it. I've seen videos on YouTube about the Kill Pens and was shocked to see the meat shipped to Europe. I've seen how the beautiful wild mustangs the government are sworn to protect have been treated and wasn't pleased. 

I'm not trying to upset anyone. But I am just learning a few of these things, then I can't be the only one who is ignorant about it. And it can only help to continue to get the word out.

Big question is, besides writing our politicians and making a fuss, what else can we do as individuals to put a stop to the abuse of our horse companions? No matter the breed?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Kyleen Drake said:


> This video shocked me. I thought people who show horses love horses.


Most people do love their horses. Even most of the TWH show riders do. Not all TWH owners who show abuse their horses. There are crummy people in every discipline. 

Some of the things in that video are not legal now and haven't been for some time. The TWH industry is doing a better job of policing their own, IMO.

I hesitate to condemn all horsemen who do a certain discipline based on what pops up about some. Many of us have strong opinions about how a horse should live, be ridden, fed, what constitutes adequate hoof care, what kind of tack is better, or at least what minimum standards are, which vaccines should be given, and more. 

Being slow to judge, but quick to research/learn/discover takes a lot of horse people farther than editorial videos.

Enjoy discovering the varied world of horses!


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

I thought ALL people who showed horses loved their horses. You put that much work into them, need to be pretty dedicated.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Naive of me perhaps, but I was rather thinking that the show horses was the one area where abuse didn't happen, but for those few rare horse owners. Eye opener. Bit of a shock that people in this area were trusting trainers and trainers were doing this. So yeah, another lesson learned. Keep a close eye on your trainer, and you get the feeling something is a bit off, don't ignore it.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Some people will do anything to win, regardless of the sport. If what you're doing gets the ribbons/money, pretty much everyone else will follow your example. Horse showing is big business just like any other money-making endeavor, and if horses have to suffer for it, so be it.


Some people may have initially loved the animals but are so far into 'doing whatever it takes' to win now, that the horses are only a means to an end.


The only way to get these practices outlawed is to make sure the judges don't reward their behaviors by letting them win.


Yes, you're naïve. Not everyone who has/works with horses loves and cares about them.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Op, please read and re-read the post *Boots* made.

Abuse exists within every single breed of the horse world, dog show world, cat show world. 

They can be the parent who takes a swing at the referee for making a bad call against their child. 

They can be the road rage person who runs somebody off the road because that person is t driving fast enough.

They can be the cheerleader mom who murdered so her daughter could win the competition.

They ARE the one percenters of a ANY competitive venue who want to win at any and all costs.

I have owned Walking Horses for 25 years, I have bought and paid for my horses 57 years. I have seen some really nasty stuff go on within several breeds.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

As a TWH owner, we do what we can to bring the abuse to the attention of those who can stop it, work with FOSH to support their efforts to end the Big Lick classes, and have dropped out TWHBEA membership so our money is not adding to their coffers. The TWHBEA is now in financial straits due to the number of us who won't support them with our memberships, FOSH is making headway with bringing the abuse to those attention of those who were sponsoring the Big Lick classes, and all of us can help end the abuse of any animal by writing to our congressmen and Senators voicing our concerns.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Some styles of TWH showing, because they reward a grossly exaggerated gait, lend themselves to a particular style of abuse, and I agree it is appalling. But in any animal-focused situation where glory and/or money is at stake there will be abusive practices. TB racing, anyone? 

I have heard the same blame game excuses in every venue I've ever been in contact with, from 4-H livestock shows to sheepdog trials to conformation dog shows.

1. "It's only a few bad apples". Nope. They might be some of the worst, plus they got caught. But it is a continuum. To some degree, everyone plays the same game in the same arena. 
2. "They're only in it for the money". Nope. In most cases they are in it because they love the sport. Maybe not the individual animals, but the sport yes. 
3. "The judges have to change their criteria". I have never heard of a case where the judges banded together and enforced compliance with some standard. That isn't the way judging works. 
4. "The club has to change the rules". That is, more often than not, useless. Often what wins is not written down anywhere, it just evolved on its own, and is now out of control. 
5. "The competitors have to take more responsibility". Actually, that is often impossible. To participate in the system, you generally have to imitate the winners as best you can. If they use abusive techniques, you will probably have to as well. See #1.

What does work? The only thing I have seen work is some kind of mandatory inspection by trained professional outside agents. Endurance ride vet checks are an obvious example. Not all abuses lend themselves easily to such inspections but where there is a will there is often a way. 

The will is often lacking, however. When people are heavily invested in a sport, embedded in it as you might say, it is incredibly hard to look at it from the outside. I'm not sure why that is, but it's a fact. Possibly it is because the risk of recognizing something that would upend your life is fairly high. What if you've been raised to love Big Lick from childhood and your daddy taught you how to train and show? How hard would it be to admit that you are causing suffering and that you need to stop? All your friends, all your skills, everything you've known and worked for, are you going to give all that up? Better to harden yourself and do what everyone else does and not think about it.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Yes I have read what everyone has to say, respectfully and thoughtfully. Yet I am 100% new to almost everything. Naive and ignorant, but not completely stupid. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. Stupidity is lacking common sense and intelligence. 

It's my way to want to think MOST people are kind natured. Not all, seen some ugly in my life, but most. 

The point of me wanting to start this thread is for other new people to the horse world, like myself, to be aware of these issues. The more people who know about what is going on, the more people there are who can ban together, put their minds together and offer up solutions. And that was my original question. How to stop it.. 

I'm pleased to here that there's been some advances. That there are now shows going on, that eliminate the cheaters. And the judges are now encouraged to ignore participants who do cheat. This is the sort of information I'm wanting to discuss and hear about.

I've been to the horse races. I know the kind of abuse that goes on there for SOME owners and their horses, hoping for that first place ribbon. So hearing that SOME people in that industry have severely harmed animals, no surprise.

I've seen the Kill Pens. I hated it. Am I going to argue if Kill Pens should exist or not? No, not on this thread I am not. Am I going to argue for or against adoptions from kill pens for the moment? No. But for this thread, I am wanting to say, for the people who do own kill pen establishments and do abuse horses, that it's unnecessary. That's all. A bit more humanity, please, even when the task is ugly.

Small back-woods town doesn't even begin to describe where I am. You can't drive one mile around here without bumping into a church. Deeply religious community. This town has grown a lot in the past few years. But the culture has stayed the same. There are horse shows around here, I've been to a few. It's for the kids mostly. They pretty up their horses, donkeys, mules, what-have-you and go compete. It's very competitive, but I didn't see anything to alarm me during any time I was there. So yeah, there are some things that have surprised me. Around here, I'm sure we have a bad egg or two. I haven't met any yet. But for the most part the idea of harming an animal for a ribbon is kinda foreign. It's senseless. So did I consider someone would do that for a ribbon on an adult scale? Nope. >.< Like I said, naive of me. 

I'm not harping on anyone who likes to do a certain area of horsemanship. I am condemning those few individuals who put harsh chemicals on the TWH, chemical burns on the legs, in order to show them. It's not right. If you want to use just the boots on your TWH, that is your biz. Your choice. But those few individuals who put chemical burns on the horses, then beat them to get them to try to get the horse to stand up? Not ok. 

Now, back to my main question. What else can we do to prevent abuse of horses, besides going to our politicians? I'm glad for the suggestions I've read so far. And I firmly believe that a large group of people, gathered together, talking about solutions to a problem, is the good way to solve issues. A hive mind, I don't know, like this forum, can be a useful tool.


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## watcher (Apr 26, 2016)

I got my horse because his owner wanted to put him down because he didn't want to show anymore and she didn't want him to go to slaughter. She sunk 80K into him and then didn't want to even consider finding him a new home. I'm lucky I ended up with him. When I got him he had his show package shoes on, which are described in that video, the plastic weights nailed into his shoes and feet. He's still recovering from those, he's barefoot and his hooves are chipping so the farrier is having to come out more than usual just to keep him out of pain or risk, but he's finally improving. 

Abuse is everywhere, awareness is always the first step. Creating a petition to change legislature about how horse abuse is handled is another good idea, but you have to understand that this is usually happening in private barns, which aren't easy to track. Having USDA inspections instead of the show standard inspect is another good thing but that's a lot of man power, and money to do that and there are hundreds of shows. So regulation is very hard, and there are lots of different sports with horses so again, lot of man power and money to make it safer for the horses. 

So ground roots movement is the best bet to try an extinguish abuse, unfortunately it's such a widespread problem its hard to stop abuse in private homes. Much like with humans, we need stricter laws. 

Good on you for being proactive. I would love to see every animal be in a loving home and never having abuse, but competitions sometimes bring out the worst in people. 

Here's to hoping for change.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Dumb question perhaps, but what if the shows changed? By that I mean, you still had horse shows for what-ever area you wish to join in on, but how it was done was totally different? I know I'm not phrasing this question very well. Trying to find the words for it. Er.. Um..

Using the TWH only as an example.. Lets say they changed it so that there were still shows for the TWH competitions. But the normal now was only what could be accomplished by using usual dressage techniques? The horses are shown for health, coat quality, muscle tone, spirit, the qualities that make that particular breed of horse beautiful, the qualities that make that breed. If they were judged for what comes naturally for them? And they just did away with the boots completely? Surely there would be some people who then would still want to participate, even without the boots? I'm sure there will still be some who would want to do the high step shows. But surely there would be others drawn in, compelled by a more natural way of doing things? And giving people choices, would still allow them to go to shows, to be in that culture, but now they would have an option on how they want to go about it..


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

There are people who will harm horses for far less than a ribbon.

There are those who will harm them because they are not obedient and rather than taking the time to properly train the horse, they beat them into submission. 

On the opposite side of the spectrum, there are also those who harm a horse with good intentions by not providing rules and discipline that is needed for the horse to live amongst humans and always have value. 

IMO there is such a thing as giving the wrong kind of love. Some horses end up at the slaughter house through that venue. 

There are those that harm horses through ignorance or lack of funds for feed, training or veterinary care......Probably more common these days than show abuse.

The list goes on and on. It gets frustrating.

As to eliminating the big lick style....it is part of the culture of the breed. It would be like trying to eliminate racing in the Thoroughbred world, or dressage from the English riding....both of which also have their critics of the techniques used in showing and training. In the end, people have to be the ones to change, in their hearts, or they will just find new ways around the rules.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

I'm not asking to eliminate it, but offer other options along with it. Would it help any?


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

And yeah I remember those cowboys when I was a kid, trying to break that stallion. Most of those cowboys were just teenage boys, doing it the way they were taught to do it. They didn't know any better. It didn't make it right, it was ignorance, but I can't fully blame those cowboys for doing what they were told as kids. Thankfully to people like Buck, we've been shown a better way to break horses and that practice has lessened. 

Might sound odd, but I'm glad to know about these things. Makes me aware of what to look for. And I hope, once I get there, make me a stronger horse owner.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

There already are options for the walkers....lots of them, one is called the lite shod class, but none of them bring in the money and crowds like the big lick....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I understand that they actually do have flat shod classes for the TWH, but the big money is in Big Lick.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Sadly, currently the big money is for the Big Lick classes but each year more sponsors are withdrawing their support. The TWH breed is very versatile so there are other classes along with awards for trail riding too. 


What's really sad is that the abuse of TWH's is just the tip of the iceberg---other horse breeds have issues with abuse too along with dogs and just about any animal mankind has domesticated.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kyleen Drake said:


> Now, back to my main question. What else can we do to prevent abuse of horses, besides going to our politicians? I'm glad for the suggestions I've read so far. And I firmly believe that a large group of people, gathered together, talking about solutions to a problem, is the good way to solve issues. A hive mind, I don't know, like this forum, can be a useful tool.


The short answer is, it's complicated. I very strongly feel that simplistic solutions lead to unforeseen consequences, possibly even worse than the abuse it sought to cure. For example banning horse slaughter. 

I often like to refer to smoking cigarettes in the united states, as a kind of paradigm for what can address a pervasive, socially accepted yet at the same time widely deplored problem. Smoking in the US has dropped by about 50% since 1955. Is there still smoking? Yes but it continues to decline every year. How did this come about? Through trying all kinds of approaches and continually barraging the problem from every direction, from nicotine patches to warning labels, media campaigns, talks in the schools, gradually eliminating legal places to smoke in public, cigarette taxes, and more. 

That is what it would take -- a multi-pronged barrage, throwing everything anyone can think of at it and continuing to do so, essentially forever, because just like nicotine will continue to be addicting forever, so will abuse of animals will be continue to be a slippery slope we will endlessly be sliding down. 

But the treatment of animals is far more complex, because while smoking doesn't have any real benefits, working with animals is part of the human condition; at some point we must draw a line, because there is no line out there otherwise. Examples:

Is it abuse to shave a horse's muzzle for the show ring, even though those sensitive vibrissae help a horse sense his world? 

Is it abuse to put a horse in a confining harness for hours before a show so that he will be so grateful for the release he will be more sparkly? 

Is it abuse to keep a horse in a box he can just turn around in, almost all the time? 

Is it abuse to keep a horse alone?

Is it abuse to trailer a horse anywhere, when it is proven that trailering is stressful even if the horse appears calm?

See where this is going? There are many thousands of people out there who believe animals should not be owned at all. Animal Rightists. That is the logical end of "eliminate abuse" -- eliminate contact. So, this is a very important time for a discussion about the uses of animals. Everybody has an opinion . . .


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna just listed a whole bunch of stuff and a lot of it boils down to the question the AR folks won't give a straight answer to. Are animals property or are they "humans" with all those rights? They want animals, ALL animals to be considered as individuals. What they leave out is, they have far more protection as livestock. As live stock they are owned and property, and if someone's messing with my livestock, my livelihood, I have a lot of leeway in certain areas that I can choose to deal with them in. 

As un-owned individuals an animal who is mistreated then would have to hire his own lawyer and seek his own remedies and protections.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Avna you've some good points. But there are clear situations where everyone would agree it is definitely abuse of the animal. And I for one, don't want to be in that situation and then have to figure out what my options are on how to respond to it. I would much rather know what my options are before hand and do my best to make an informed decision. 


Once again, lets use the video for an example. The man in the video who is beating that poor TWH after he'd made it suffer chemical burns on the legs and the horse was in so much pain it could not stand up / did not want to stand up. If I were to walk into a barn and see that. I would want to know what I could do about it before hand. Obviously the first thing to do is to get yourself out of that situation, get to a safe location, and call the police. But beyond that, what else I could do? 

Information can be a powerful tool. Please notice my favorite quote in my signature. 

If I want things to change, I need information. Knowledge helps to make informed decisions. And from there, I as a person will be more capable to lead by example. Talking to people like you, here on this forum, is one way of obtaining information. The library books I have rented, another source of information. YouTube, another way of obtaining information. Google, web searches, talking to trainers, spending time face to face with other horse owners, all valuable ways of getting information and all ways I am currently seeking. If I missed any, let me know.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kyleen Drake said:


> Once again, lets use the video for an example. The man in the video who is beating that poor TWH after he'd made it suffer chemical burns on the legs and the horse was in so much pain it could not stand up / did not want to stand up. If I were to walk into a barn and see that. I would want to know what I could do about it before hand. Obviously the first thing to do is to get yourself out of that situation, get to a safe location, and call the police. But beyond that, what else I could do?


Well, based on the video, you'd either be going to my funeral or visiting me in jail. If I caught a trainer treating one of mine like that, my first reaction would be to pick up a bigger bat and get to work on the trainer. Since he had a barn full of help, I know that is not the best, safest answer, hence why I mention my own funeral or best scenario in that case, ending up in jail after giving him the thrashing he so richly deserved. 

Out here, in the county area, you'd call the local sheriff because there's no animal control. They could work the case and hopefully put his sorry butt in jail and take the horses until they could be sent home. But, IMO, the trainer is only part of the problem. Until you can get the OWNER'S to accept responsibility for sending their horses to a known abuser, you're just fighting windmills. Until these so called trainers get hit really hard in their pocket books, nothing will change because the owners are paying a LOT of money for training and showing and they want results, FAST. That leads to this kind of abuse.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

"Until these so called trainers get hit really hard in their pocket books, nothing will change because the owners are paying a LOT of money for training and showing and they want results, FAST. That leads to this kind of abuse. "


And herein lies the problem. When the concept of imposing mandatory sentencing and fines for abuse, TWHBEA and its associated entities were up in arms so that piece of legislation died despite many of us writing to our representative to endorse that bill. Now those caught and found guilty of abuse get a slap on the hand and "you really shouldn't do that". IMO, it should be 3 strikes and your out for a minor infraction, but for a major one like beating a horse, it's a hard 40 with no chance of early parole. We need to shut down this animal abuse and the only way to do that is to demand sentencing guidelines that can't be waved along with a national list of abuser who can never own or work around animals again.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Two more suggestions:

Down time; you will encounter many opinions, some you will easily dismiss as too radical for you. Others, you will have to think about and integrate it into your own experiences and beliefs. Why do you believe what you do? First, know thyself or risk sounding like a parrot mimicking the views of others but not having a clear understanding of why they hold that kernel of truth to you. 

Flexibility; you may go into a situation with a bad taste already in your mouth, let's say the use of spurs where you have seen them be used as tools of torture. But then maybe, you encounter someone who uses them with skill and finesse and the horse doesn't even seem to be the least bit bothered by them anymore than the saddle itself. Be open enough to change your mind that it might not be the tool itself that is the evil, but the person's who misuse it. 

It can go the other way as well. Maybe you think the only way to get a horse through a baulk is to spank his butt. But then you see someone else take a different approach that worked equally well; ask questions, file it away to give it a try sometime.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

And then you have ignorant owners, who trusted the trainers, then later are horrified to find out what was going on. Of course, some owners would lie and say, "But I didn't know that was going on!" 

I remember awhile back my family and I went out to get groceries. My four year old (at the time) was sitting in the shopping cart, he didn't feel well. We had just picked up his prescription and were letting him rest while we walked about the store, getting a few things. We get to the check out, and there's this teen age kid that was bagging our food items for us as we checked out. The kid reached over, and touched my son's head, ruffled his hair. My son instantly said, "Don't touch me! I don't know you." It got my attention. It was just the once so I didn't say anything, I figured that would've been the end of it. But this bag-boy starts to brag about how, "All kids like me!" I'm keeping my mouth shut but listening, still adding groceries to be bagged up. Once again, this guy reaches into my cart, puts his paws on my son. And this time, he left a red mark on my sons arm. I looked the kid in the eye and told him, "Touch my son again, you'll be spending the night in juvy! I know this is your job but get away from him, NOW! Go get someone else to take your place at this counter." He left. I got his name off his ID badge. When I got home I called the store, spoke to the manager. That manager and I had a long chat. That kid does not work there anymore. I haven't seen him since. I much rather would've put that kid flat on his ****, but assault charges didn't seem like my favorite way to spend the night. I'm rather glad I handled it that way instead of my gut reaction. Knowing I had options on how to react to it, didn't leave me feeling helpless, was able to react with a bit of a calmer head. Even of my husband looked worried and stepped in between us. >.< lol


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

This is an interesting topic and one that can be debated back & forth. I do not agree with the Big Lick and I actually find it distasteful to watch. But I did not grow up with that as part of my 'culture'. It is deplorable to me what some people will do to win a race, show, ribbon or money. 

However, people view horses in different ways. Some people view them as livestock and as such, sending unwanted horses to slaughter does not bother them. My question is, what is considered abuse. Avna touched on this in an earlier post and I find this is the key. Some people do not consider nailing heavy shoes to a horses feet and using caustic chemicals on their legs abuse. What about pushing a 2 yo race horse until their legs bust? How about the wild pony races at rodeos? Most people are quick to say, "Yes, that is abuse". But then there are some grey areas....twitching a horse, trailering, sweating legs, clipping, bathing. 

It's all a matter of perspective. People are trying to change the ways some of the horse sports are managed, and I'm sure they are making some progress. It is difficult to have a written set of rules as to what is acceptable or not when everyone holds a different opinion on this very subject. 

I do agree that with regards to the Big Lick, that if funding is dried up and ticket sales start decreasing, it may become obsolete in the future. I won't pretend to know about the stats and local support of the Big Lick. But if there is no funding or money, events cannot occur. But is the Big Lick such a big part of Tennessee that it will stay forever? My only comparison would be to the Calgary Stampede which is up here....and I can say that for all the people who hate the chuckwagon races, I doubt they will ever disappear. But that is a whole other can of worms.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

I can tell you, as a new person to the horse world, having just stumbled onto the TWH's chemical burns in that video, seeing that poor horse beaten with a club, definitely makes me want to look for solutions. I won't be able to stop everything that goes on in this world, all on my own. But I'll have full control over anything that goes on at my property. And if any kids come to my ranch to visit, I am hoping I set a good example with them that they'll take with them when they go. And knowing some of this information will keep me aware of what to look for, preventing it from happening on my property.


It is an interesting point though that you bring up. Worth talking about. I have seen people that don't know anything at all about horses, look at someone who's using a crop to tap a horses bum and go, "They are beating that poor horse!" And everyone who is experienced with horses or knows a little about them is looking at the noob like they've got four eyes, knowing a love-tap with a crop on a horses' bum is like one of us getting hit with a sock. Perspective does matter. Knowing how to react to a situation matters too. Knowing what your choices are. 

Appreciate the time some of you are putting into this, the thought. If it helps me think on some things, it's helping others.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

The issue for the TWH on pads is that he is so sore that laying down is his only option. They also have no chance to be on pasture, out with a herd, or buddy up with another horse. This really hit home when we rescued a starving TWH gelding who had been on pads and had sold for a big price just 8 months earlier due to his potential as a Big Lick. He had no concept of horsey manners so was often run off by our alpha Belgian gelding who was a fair leader, didn't understand grazing until he watched the others, and took close to a year before he ever had a buddy for self grooming or understand the idea of taking his turn to stand guard while the others lay down to sleep. Sadly for our gelding, he will bear the scars of the soring for the rest of his life and his back has neurological damage that prevents anyone sitting on him bareback, but he is fine with a properly fitted saddle.


We also do dog rescue and got a mini Dachshund 4 months ago. She's a sweetie, wants attention and to be held, enjoys her obedience lessons, but still fears sudden movements of our feet or hands. Seeing her slink down in fear is sad but she's coming around and learning that she's finally safe and has made big progress.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I've made the Saturday night showing at the Celebration the past several years.

One owner had three different affidavits from vets prior to the show and still got disqualified by heat showing in the hoof.

The feds are all over this, and in a lot of different ways. Might be an over reaction in some cases, and the World Grand Champion classes have been somewhat small over the past years. 

There are many disqualifications, and many who voluntarily withdraw rather than submit to the inspections.

Personally, I think it's political to a large degree.

That said, I've never put a shoe on Miss Lacy's feet. She doesn't show gait. I've ridden with several of the local show people who can't believe I ride her barefooted in boots and she's as smooth as she is.....flat walk, running walk, and canter....

I'm cautiously optimistic....hopefully, the tradition will survive. Hopefully, the abusers will be purged.....we'll see....


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Anyone who can teach a horse to do something, without unnecessary pain to the horse, go for it.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Why do you feel that pain should be a part of teaching a horse? A good trainer knows that remaining calm, patient, consistent, and confident with a big dose of laughter for those times you get an unexpected response go further than any pain. That trainer also understands body language (both his and the horse), how to read the horse and answer his questions in terms he understands, that horses learn from the release of pressure, that to overcome those "no way are you going to do that to me or am I going to approach that horse eating monster" is a simple matter of timing while using approach and retreat, and that building a partnership with a horse takes time and sometime you as the Senior Partner must listen to what the horse as the Junior Partner is telling you.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Ever have one of those days where you feel terribly misunderstood.. *sigh* >.< I gotta work on my grammar.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that abuse can be found in any segment of the horse industry, but TW and the Big Lick is perhaps singled out , as it is where deliberate pain is used, to create that exaggerated gait
Soring creates front feet that are,well, sore, to the point the horse rocks his weight back, onto his hind legs, much like a laminitic horse would, to try and take weight off those sore front feet, while also lifting them quickly and high
The answer seemed to be classes where the horses were flat shod, but pressure shoing was used in some of those horses.
To someone who has struggled to keep my laminitic horse from having painful bouts,the deliberate infliction of pain to those front feet is hard to understand
I certainly know that there are many people who own these horses, and who would never condone this practice. 
Yes, there are inspectors now, but Equus magazine had a good article once, done by an undercover investigator, how those that still follow this practice, foil the system
First, inspectors can't be everywhere.
That reporter attended a show. Trailers pulled up, and as soon as the news got out that inspectors were present, many of those trailers weren't even un loaded, but pulled out
One trainer was heard to say, 'the inspectors will be gone tomorrow and we will be back'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When topics of abuse have come up, I have stated before, that it is very easy for those who never show, who have no fortunes of investment tied up in those horses, who don't depend , like many trainers, on their livelihood , on their ability to produce winners, to state they would never do any of those things, done to horses in many segments of the show and race industry.
HOwever, the people that I truly admire, are those that ARE
in those industries, have those pressures to win and produce winners, who remain true to their horses, and thus do NOT do anything to win
The true test is to remain firm to your convictions, to your horses, under those pressures, and not just looking in, commenting from an abstract position.
To use a comparison, in an attempt to clarify this thought, it is said, that anyone is capable of murder, given the right circumstances!


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Prairie said:


> Why do you feel that pain should be a part of teaching a horse?


To the untrained owner, bits can cause pain. Saddles can cause pain if used the wrong way. Being WAY over weight and riding a horse that's WAY too small causes pain. Without knowledge of horse care, they can ache in all kinds of ways from joint pain, pain in the spine.. the list is endless... and all the more reason to learn, gain knowledge. Knowing these things can prevent unnecessary pain. 

Then you have the horses where an owner has adopted / bought it, then because of one problem or another, has become afraid of that horse. The horse picked up on that fear, learned from it, then figured it's higher rank than the human. And now you've a behavior problem that needs corrected. It's not fun for the new trainer to solve, and not fun for the horse to re-learn good manners.. But it's MUCH better to give that horse a love-tap on the rump with a soft rope to get it to behave, break it of bad habits, than to let the bad habit escalate. I'd much rather give my horse a nice love-tap across its rump when doing ground work if it ever pins its ears at me than having to worry it might do that to a child. My kids should never have to worry about an aggressive horse if all they're doing is walking across the pastor to get to the tree house.

So, is it pleasant for the horse to get a bit of a spanking? No. Is it necessary? Yep. And that's what I meant. Sometimes it's necessary to be a bit firm. But not mean. Mean and cruel are two different ball parks. Some things are necessary, some are not. 

And sometimes you've a horse with physical therapy needs. It may hurt the horse but it's what's best for it so it can get better. 

What do I mean by that? Lets say, for example, a cougar got onto my property when I was asleep. and spooked my horse so bad he gets hurt. Vet comes out, sees to him, says he'll be all right but I need to walk him a bit each day, keep the muscles loose. Vet warns me it's going to hurt my horse to have him walk it out, and he my react to the pain, but it's necessary. Am I going to ignore the vet? No. I'll do what's best for my horse and follow the vets instructions.. Including pain relief medications. 

Teaching Mustangs is no peaches and creme sometimes. There is moments.

Now, I'll say it again.. If you can teach your horse good manners, new tricks, without unnecessary pain, go for it! But if it's still naughty, still pinning its ears at you during training, pawing, and charging at you.. I hope you swat him across the butt enough with that soft rope that he thinks you've gone crazy! And I wouldn't bat a lash at you for doing it.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Maybe the best we can hope for is a world in which Big Lick is driven underground, like dog fighting; something few condone, but in certain cultures is still alive, just hidden. 

Personally I would be very happy to see a mandate that every horse entered in any show anywhere is shod flat. That would change things for many breeds and venues, not just Big Lick.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's my thing on training or correcting a bad habit (not entirely in keeping with the TWH subject but about causing pain). If a horse does a bad thing, say crowds into me in the pasture when I'm bringing feed out, rather than let it escalate to where I get hurt I'll correct that horse before it gets into my space by whatever means are necessary. 

You saw a little of this with Dolly who is new to us. She was gung ho for her bucket and came running in and got shoo'd out a couple of times, and then I nailed her with an empty bucket that I bounced right off her shoulder. She veered out, desired action, so I didn't throw another bucket at her. That percolated in her brain a while. Next day she came in too close but not as fast or aggressively, so I just raised the empty bucket and let her see it and she veered away. She got a "Goooood Girl" as soon as she started veering away and no bucket toss. Next day, she came running but put on the brakes BEFORE she got to my space and walked near me to her feed bowl. I dumped her bucket in the bowl, petted her on the shoulder and let her eat in peace. No repeats in the pasture.

When things got so hot and humid, I started bringing them in to their stalls in the morning and feeding in there, AM & PM. Obviously my barn helper has been letting them crowd her, because Ms. Dolly got REALLY pushy, I mean STRONG pushy getting into her bucket and not letting me walk in an put her feed in her bowl. Since she was SO aggressive about it, she got smacked hard with an empty bucket and backed over to a corner AWAY from her bowl and made to stand there while I put her feed down. Then, and only when I said it was ok, I let her come back to the bowl to eat and left her stall. Every time she moved a foot, I made her put it back until she quit trying to crowd me. And I've done that every day since, walked in her stall, left her bucket outside, put her into a corner and made her stand, reached out and picked up the bucket, poured it in the bowl, and then told her, "OK" and stepped aside from the bowl. 

Those little empty buckets don't hurt (as in injure) them, but I'm sure they sting and they make a lot of noise which is startling. I'd rather toss or hit one with the bucket one or two times and get the behaviour corrected than to have to go to a whip. I have whips and I will use them when needed but I don't need to go there first time, every time. A little pain for a lot of gain.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

@Avna- You know what I would really like to do someday? I would really really like to have a big *** BBQ out at my place, where anyone who owns a horse would be welcome to bring their horse and compete with one another. Various ages from small child to adult. And it would be more about the horse than the human. Where the winner is given prizes based on horse knowledge, showing they know what's best for the horse. I'm not even sure how to set something like that up. But it might be fun. 

For example. After everyone arrives I could tell them, "Tomorrow is the kids competition, ages 3 to age 12. This competition is for grooming. Illustrate with your grooming techniques what you feel is best for your hoses' every day care! And be ready to explain to the judges why you feel what you've done is best for the horse! You've tonight and tomorrow morning to prepare. You're welcome to use anything in my barn to get ready so long as you replace it when you're done. You may ask adults for advise but they can not do the work for you. Go!"

I think starting small, making a competition more about getting together, having some fun, having some excellent food, few campfire songs, a nice bon fire.. It'd be good. But I wouldn't know where to start. I'm great at organizing large amounts of people, seeing to human needs.. Still need a long way to go to learn about horses.

......... and yeah I know I'm not explaining this perfectly, oh well.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

@Dream, yep. I agree. It should be nipped in the but before it gets out of hand. But there are many examples I have seen where it was not, it got out of hand, and now things need to get a bit more crazy to get back where it should've been had it been nipped in the bud to start with..


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kyleen Drake said:


> @Avna- You know what I would really like to do someday? I would really really like to have a big *** BBQ out at my place, where anyone who owns a horse would be welcome to bring their horse and compete with one another. Various ages from small child to adult. And it would be more about the horse than the human. Where the winner is given prizes based on horse knowledge, showing they know what's best for the horse. I'm not even sure how to set something like that up. But it might be fun.
> 
> For example. After everyone arrives I could tell them, "Tomorrow is the kids competition, ages 3 to age 12. This competition is for grooming. Illustrate with your grooming techniques what you feel is best for your hoses' every day care! And be ready to explain to the judges why you feel what you've done is best for the horse! You've tonight and tomorrow morning to prepare. You're welcome to use anything in my barn to get ready so long as you replace it when you're done. You may ask adults for advise but they can not do the work for you. Go!"
> 
> ...


Don't need to reinvent the wheel, become a 4-H horse project leader. You are describing, roughly, what a 4-H horse project group is like. In my club in the 1960's/70's, it was divided into three groups each with its own leader and agenda; junior (9 to 12), senior (13 to 18) and Vet Science, open to senior aged kids. 

Except not that much barbecue that I remember. Barbecue would have been an improvement.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Avna said:


> Don't need to reinvent the wheel, become a 4-H horse project leader. You are describing, roughly, what we did. Except not that much barbecue that I remember. That was an oversight.


If I have massive amounts of people over, I have to have BBQ. Makes things simple. All I have to do is bust open my freezer, let them at some of my dad's great Aungus beef. All kinds of goodies.. Steaks, hamburgers, hot dogs, chicken, pork chops, grilled corn, grilled vegetable spears, some pasta dishes.. Then snag some melons from the garden, chill them up.. I haven't had a complaint yet... 

Then the next morning its darn easy to make pancakes, waffles scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage, milk and cereal boxes about.. It's usually enough to keep everyone happy when they come out.

4-H leader hum? I'll talk to our local schools. See how our local 4-H programs are doing. Perhaps I can do something.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Kyleen Drake said:


> If I have massive amounts of people over, I have to have BBQ. Makes things simple. All I have to do is bust open my freezer, let them at some of my dad's great Aungus beef. All kinds of goodies.. Steaks, hamburgers, hot dogs, chicken, pork chops, grilled corn, grilled vegetable spears, some pasta dishes.. Then snag some melons from the garden, chill them up.. I haven't had a complaint yet...
> 
> Then the next morning its darn easy to make pancakes, waffles scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage, milk and cereal boxes about.. It's usually enough to keep everyone happy when they come out.
> 
> 4-H leader hum? I'll talk to our local schools. See how our local 4-H programs are doing. Perhaps I can do something.


In California 4-H is administered by the state agricultural extension office through the local county ag agents, not the schools. Looks like in Oklahoma it is administered by OSU? 

Frankly though, I think you need to host a barbecue for horse forum members.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kyleen Drake said:


> @Dream, yep. I agree. It should be nipped in the but before it gets out of hand. But there are many examples I have seen where it was not, it got out of hand, and now things need to get a bit more crazy to get back where it should've been had it been nipped in the bud to start with..


Oh yeah, that's true. I call those CTJ meetings and talk about how we're going down to the pond and they will go in for a full immersion conversion and they better come out singin' "Glory Hallelujah" or "I've Seen The Light", and if they don't then they'll keep on getting dunked until they do. It's all about staying focused and making a clear point. Be as soft as you can be, and as firm as you need to be. Sometimes that requires you to be very firm, but with that you have to be very fair.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Well I was thinking of the forum members when I suggested it. I really enjoy hosting parties once in a great while. I can put up with it for 3 days, two nights.. But that's my limit. After that I'm tired and want everyone to go away so I can rest.. lol... I hosted a family event of 83 people. I enjoyed that immensely. I had games for the kids, games for the adults.. I had prizes. At night the kids were in bed and the adults stayed up, swapped stories and I taught them to play the card game Bull S**t. My aunt is a great liar. I never would've guessed. lol

I spent 3 months getting ready for it. But everyone had a place to sleep, enough pillows, blankets.. and all medical needs were seen to. Went off without a hitch. I miss it a lot..

Our schools have 4-H programs for Jr High and High School. They take their animals to compete at the Tulsa State Fair. There is also OSU. So there's both. But recently there was massive budget cut at the schools, so not sure if the kids will get to this year or not.

But to start someplace, offer a place for people to go where they can compete, but it's fun, and humane to the horse.. Yeah! I'm all for it.


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## Kyleen Drake (May 26, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It's all about staying focused and making a clear point. Be as soft as you can be, and as firm as you need to be. Sometimes that requires you to be very firm, but with that you have to be very fair.


And there we go! Said much better than I could say it. But at least you understood me so I feel better! I'm not totally nuts.. lol

Yeah there's just moments we gotta get up in our horses' bums and 'have a little talk' so to speak. lol


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## WhimsicalMe (Aug 21, 2016)

I'm only starting to read all this thread and am still reading the replies but I wanted to ad that I owned a half TWH, she had such a natural gait. I had no idea that the ones I saw in shows was such a trained thing. I always assumed it was natural and that my mare just didn't do it cause she was only half. What an awful and sad thing.


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