# Stallions - Herda Carriers



## animalartcreations

A little rant. I have a 5 page list of known HERDA carriers. There are some top cutting/reining horse names on the list and I just wish that the AQHA would not allow stallions that are known carriers to be included in the stallion registry anymore. Carrier mares are bad enough, but the big time stallions produce hundreds of foals!!!! That's a flood of possible HERDA carriers being born every year. Millions of dollars are needed to train, show and promote an elite performing stallion so I understand wanting to reap the rewards, but couldn't the top producers work with the N/N stallions? There are some really good N/N stallions out there so I don't see the need to breed more HERDA carriers at this point. At the very least, I think that stallion owners should be required to state the HERDA status of their stallion in plain words instead of just saying "HERDA: Live Foal Guarantee". It should be very clear that the stallion is a carrier. Some folks might disagree. 

Okay, rant over.


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## hobbyhorse

I 100% agree with you. I recently read an article that stated some breeders like the HERDA factor, they say it makes their horses more flexible!?


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I also agree, with any of the genetic diseases. There are plenty of good horses out there without furthering a disease for the sake of the all mighty dollar. 

I have Poco Bueno bred horses myself, my grandfather started the farm with a son of Poco Dell over 50 years ago. I've had all of mine tested and they are all negative, had they been carriers, there's not a chance I'd consider using them for breeding stock. It's just irresponsible. 

I've seen firsthand what herda can do to a horse and it's gruesome. I don't understand wanting to take that chance.


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## demonwolfmoon

I agree with the above posters that breeding animals with genetic disorders is irresponsible. I did not, however know what HERDA was, so I looked it up... and I have to say that WOW, that's horrible! Why in the world would you knowingly risk inflicting that on an innocent??? Even knowingly producing a carrier just serves to perpetuate the suffering on a future generation....


"The expected lifespan of an affected horse is 2–4 years. There is currently no cure for this disease. To prevent it from occurring, the only solution is not to breed horses who both carry the HERDA allele."
Hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## farmpony84

I found this very interesting:

Breedings of carrier horses have a 25% chance of producing an affected foal. 

Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

So if I undertsand this correctly, if the horse is a carrier then 25% of it's offspring have a chance of being affected. It doesn't say what percent would be a carrier (do we assume all?)

Then if you breed a carrier to a normal horse you positively will not get a HERDA affected foal yet you run the risk of having a carrier. 

So... In a perfect world I would assume the "fix" would be to dis-allow any breedings of a HERDA carrier or only allow it to breed to a "normal" horse but then sterilize the offspring...?

I know, that's in a perfect world. I think money is what drives the breeding of these animals...Same with any other genetic defect such as HYPP, SCID, JEB, OLWFS, and GBED to name a few....


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## paint_girl08

It would be great if you could post a link of all those stallions to make others on this forum aware of the horses that carry HERDA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## animalartcreations

The original link to the list page is dead because stallion owners complained. There are a lot of breeders who don't care about standing HERDA carrying stallions. Some clearly state the status of their stallions while others are vague or don't even mention it. To them, it is a manageable disease. To folks like myself, it is irresponsible. You could try doing a google search. Somebody might have stashed the list away somewhere else. At any rate, it is well known that horses with Poco Bueno in their lineage should be checked. Horses with Zantanon or his son, 'King' should be checked for GBED which is still out there and being propagated by stallions with well known pedigrees. 

If you have a horse that you want to check for the possibility of HERDA, you can message me and I'll check my list. I don't want to cause any troubles for this forum.


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## Left Hand Percherons

To eliminate all HERDA carrier stallions and mares from the gene pool is an unrealistic expectation. As you've noted, many of the elite stallions in the AQHA and APHA in all disciplines, not just cutting and reining, are carriers. To eliminate them isn't in the best interest of the breed. What the breeds need to do is mandate HERDA testing on every horse that traces to Poco Bueno just as they do for requiring HYPP testing for Impressive horses. Mare owners need to be able to make the best decision for the resulting foal. Resulting foals need to be tested and their status clearing marked on their papers. If the breeders start taking it in the shorts and bare the finacial loss of afflicted foals maybe a little more care in the selection process will take place.

If a stallion owner is gving a HERDA live foal guarantee, they are saying in so many words that the stallion is a carrier. Unfortunately, the foal will appear normal for the most part until they are started undersaddle. Only then will the status of the horse be tested and revealed. At that point, the guarantee probably isn't going to be honored.


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## nuisance

paint_girl08 said:


> It would be great if you could post a link of all those stallions to make others on this forum aware of the horses that carry HERDA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





animalartcreations said:


> The original link to the list page is dead because stallion owners complained. There are a lot of breeders who don't care about standing HERDA carrying stallions. Some clearly state the status of their stallions while others are vague or don't even mention it. To them, it is a manageable disease. To folks like myself, it is irresponsible. You could try doing a google search. Somebody might have stashed the list away somewhere else. At any rate, it is well known that horses with Poco Bueno in their lineage should be checked. Horses with Zantanon or his son, 'King' should be checked for GBED which is still out there and being propagated by stallions with well known pedigrees.
> 
> If you have a horse that you want to check for the possibility of HERDA, you can message me and I'll check my list. I don't want to cause any troubles for this forum.


Do you have a way to scan it and attatch it? that would be alot less trouble for you than looking up a bunch of us.
Thanks


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## animalartcreations

Eliminating HERDA carrier stallions would be quite easy on a going forward basis. The well known carrier horses do indeed produce non-carrier offspring. Those offspring should be the next show prospects going forward, not the next generation of carriers. It's not like there is a horse shortage.


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## animalartcreations

If I get too many requests I'll try to get the list in a form I can attach to those interested. My printer doesn't scan, but I can take digital photos when my friend returns my camera.


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## Faceman

farmpony84 said:


> *So if I undertsand this correctly, if the horse is a carrier then 25% of it's offspring have a chance of being affected. It doesn't say what percent would be a carrier (do we assume all?)*
> 
> Then if you breed a carrier to a normal horse you positively will not get a HERDA affected foal yet you run the risk of having a carrier.
> 
> So... In a perfect world I would assume the "fix" would be to dis-allow any breedings of a HERDA carrier or only allow it to breed to a "normal" horse but then sterilize the offspring...?


I'm not sure I understand your question. 

Breeding non carrier to non carrier results in 100% "clear".

Breeding carrier to non carrier results in 50% carriers and 50% "clear".

Breeding carrier to carrier results in 25% afflicted, 50% carrier, and 25% "clear".


ETA: As most people know, I am opposed to breeding HERDA carriers...


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## farmpony84

Faceman said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question.
> 
> Breeding non carrier to non carrier results in 100% "clear".
> 
> Breeding carrier to non carrier results in 50% carriers and 50% "clear".
> 
> Breeding carrier to carrier results in 25% afflicted, 50% carrier, and 25% "clear".
> 
> 
> ETA: As most people know, I am opposed to breeding HERDA carriers...


That doesn't match the data that I was reviewing on a medical website. What website were you researching? Also the website I was looking at showed that some will be affected meaning they are afflicted with the disease and then it mentioned a percentage that would be carriers meaning they could pass it on. I'm curious, is it possible for an afflicted horse to not be a carrier or do the 2 go hand in hand?

I also read that a carrier can be bred to a non-carrier and only have a percentage of carriers. I'll go back and find the link if I can.

I really don't know much about the mechanics of HERDA so I'm actually asking questions out of pure interest.

for opinion purposes I want to add my caveat:

*I do not believe in breeding a known carrier of any genetic disease or defect. There are plenty of horses with the same bloodlines and attributes that are "clean".*


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## NdAppy

Farmpony - Face's math is right. He didn't get that from a website. it's simple genetics.


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## farmpony84

NdAppy - Just to let you know, I read your response as "You are stupid". T

Anyway,
I have a basic understanding of genetics but hold no degrees in science or biology.

This is a qoute from the below site:

For horse breeders, identification of carriers is critical for the selection of mating pairs. Breedings of carrier horses have a 25% chance of producing an affected foal. Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

Horse HERDA

This website below is the one that has me confused. It states that a carrier and a non carrier will give you 50% carrier, 25% afflicted, and 25% clean. The way they broke it out it appears that the 25 percent afflicted is in it's own group. Does that mean they are afflicted but not carriers?

Of course this site may be a bad reference because it shows if you take a carrier and breed it to a non-carrier then you get 100% carriers but that's not true.

http://ckmobileequine.ca/articles.html


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## NdAppy

Never said you were stupid nor was that implied in my post.

Afflicted horses _are_ carriers. They have two copies of the HERDA gene where carrier (non afflicted carriers) only have one.

The math on that site is exactly the same as what Face stated. Carrier to carrier is 25% clear, 50% carrier, and 25% afflicted. Always will be.


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## NdAppy

Assuming this is what you are talking about here - 









The Punnett squares are correct. The one on the right, if that is what has you confused, is afflicted (horses with two copies) bred to a non-carrier. That _will_ give you 100% carriers of the disease.

ETA their little thing at the top doesn't match their squares. NH and HH are actually used in reference to HYPP. HERDA is N/HRD or HRD/HRD.


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## Kimmylikestojump

That is how I would read it. Afflicted are carriers and also stricken with HERDA.


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## farmpony84

I still read it that way and I still feel that's what you were implying.

That same site shows that a herda horse and a normal horse would be 100% carrier which is why I question the data on that particular site.

I'm asking questions because I don't know answers or I am looking for clarification or even to ensure that what I think is correct, is infact, a true statement.


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## farmpony84

NdAppy said:


> Assuming this is what you are talking about here -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Punnett squares are correct. The one on the right, if that is what has you confused, is afflicted (horses with two copies) bred to a non-carrier. That _will_ give you 100% carriers of the disease.
> 
> ETA their little thing at the top doesn't match their squares. NH and HH are actually used in reference to HYPP. HERDA is N/HRD or HRD/HRD.


Thank you. 

That was my question. So an afflicted horse is both carrier and suffering from the disease where a carrier only carries the gene and will only pass it on partially. 

Now I understand.


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## NdAppy

HERDA afflicted is a horse that has two copies of the HERDA gene. The site IS correct in that a HERDA afflicted horse bred to a noncarrier will produce all 100% carriers.

HERDA Afflicted horses are HRD/HRD. They only have HERDA genes to pass on. That is why a HERDA horse bred to a a nonHERDA (N/N) would produce carriers (N/HRD) everytime.


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## farmpony84

NdAppy said:


> HERDA afflicted is a horse that has two copies of the HERDA gene. The site IS correct in that a HERDA afflicted horse bred to a noncarrier will produce all 100% carriers.
> 
> *HERDA Afflicted horses are HRD/HRD. They only have HERDA genes to pass on. That is why a HERDA horse bred to a a nonHERDA (N/N) would produce carriers (N/HRD) everytime*.


But only a percentage, correct? (PS- I have no intentions of breeding a HERDA carrier nor do I endorse it)


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## NdAppy

Nope, an HRD/HRD horse bred to a N/N horse will produce N/HRD horses everytime (100%).


N/HRD to N/HRD is 25% N/N, 50% N/HRD, and 25% HRD/HRD.

N/HRD to N/N is 50% N/HRD and 50% N/N. 

Obviously N/N to N/N is 100% N/N (and HRD/HRD to HRD/HRD is 100% HRD/HRD)


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## farmpony84

NdAppy said:


> Nope, an HRD/HRD horse bred to a N/N horse will produce N/HRD horses everytime (100%).
> 
> 
> N/HRD to N/HRD is 25% N/N, 50% N/HRD, and 25% HRD/HRD.
> 
> *N/HRD to N/N is 50% N/HRD and 50% N/N. *
> 
> Obviously N/N to N/N is 100% N/N (and HRD/HRD to HRD/HRD is 100% HRD/HRD)


This was the part that first got me confused becuase of this statement:

Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

So that 50% you are talking about is CARRIER. 

I know this gets into the hows and why's of breeding and the money thing but now I'm getting it. The breeder thinks... OK 50% chance it's a carrier but who cares because it's _just a carrier_ and so they breed and then either get a mare or a potential winner so they show and earn titles, money and points and then... OH gee, breed again... and it may or may not be a carrier.

Ok... light go's on...


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## NdAppy

Yep. That is what it is. Carriers are not afflicted, they only have one copy of the HERDA Gene. Afflicted horses have two. A horse _must_ have two genes to be afflicted.


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## animalartcreations

Yeah, the whole point is that many of the top name breeders don't care if they are producing carriers or not. They breed their carrier stallions to hundreds of mares thus keeping HERDA going forward into the next generations. What I'm saying is that there are enough well bred performing stallions that do NOT carry HERDA, so I really don't see a need to use the carriers as breeding animals. That is not even counting the known carriers that aren't even alive anymore, but their collected semen is still being used!


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## farmpony84

Thank you for your patience with me Nd. I think I completely get it now. Saddly I am one of those that only know the basics on certain issues because they don't affect me. I have an Impressive mare (HYPP/NN) so when I decided to breed her I got HYPP smart because I had a need to know. With Herda - I had merely a basic understanding and I think I read too far into things and really confuse myself.

Very interesting topic Animal.


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## nrhareiner

To me it is just one more thing to look at and think about when breeding. For me it is assigned a weight and that is all put into the decision process as to use a given stallion or mare or not.

There is no way I would ever say that no HERDA carriers can ever be used or registered. That is just not realistic.


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## Faceman

farmpony84 said:


> Thank you for your patience with me Nd. I think I completely get it now. Saddly I am one of those that only know the basics on certain issues because they don't affect me. I have an Impressive mare (HYPP/NN) so when I decided to breed her I got HYPP smart because I had a need to know. With Herda - I had merely a basic understanding and I think I read too far into things and really confuse myself.
> 
> Very interesting topic Animal.


We all tend to overcomplicate things and look deeper than is necessary...I do it all the time.

The hereditary genetics of HERDA are exactly the same as HYPP, so just apply your HYPP knowledge to HERDA. The only difference is a HYPP carrier can be afflicted, but a HERDA carrier cannot...it takes two copies of the gene to induce actual HERDA affliction...


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## Faceman

nrhareiner said:


> To me it is just one more thing to look at and think about when breeding. For me it is assigned a weight and that is all put into the decision process as to use a given stallion or mare or not.
> 
> There is no way I would ever say that no HERDA carriers can ever be used or registered. That is just not realistic.


Breeding carriers perpetuates the gene that causes the disease...there is no argument against that - it is a fact.

If no HERDA carrier were ever bred again, the gene would disappear completely in one generation...there is no argument against that 
- it is a fact.

If everyone refused to breed carrier to carrier for now and all time, so the disease would never manifest itself despite the presence of the gene, then I wouldn't have an issue with breeding carriers to non carriers. This would let us have our cake and eat it too. But we both know that is not realistic either.

The darn problem is that while you and I and others may be knowledgeable and responsible breeders, we sadly represent a small minority of breeders. The vast majority of people that breed know little or nothing about HERDA, HYPP, SCIDS, and other genetic diseases, and don't subscribe to horse forums or other sources of information. What we deem as "common knowledge" is only common knowledge in the circles we run in...much of the world is either ignorant or just doesn't care.

That's why none of these diseases will ever be erradicated - poor breeders or breeders breeding unregistered stock with unknown ancestries. However, it is my opinion (and it is only an opinion), the registries should shoulder the responsibility to erradicate these diseases from registered stock. It can be done, and it can be done within the breeding lifetime of the horses now in existance - about 25 years. It is also my opinion that this should actually be a DUTY and a RESPONSIBILITY of the registries, which should be acting as stewards of their breeds rather than sitting around thinking up ways to increase their fee revenues.

You and I have always disagreed on this issue to a degree, although you know I don't condemn you because you know what you are doing. I just am personally more concerned with the bigger picture and consider the interest of our breeds more important than the interest of we owners and it bugs me that we don't eliminate HERDA and other horrible genetic diseases in our registered stock when it is easily within our ability to do so...


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## animalartcreations

nrhareiner said:


> To me it is just one more thing to look at and think about when breeding. For me it is assigned a weight and that is all put into the decision process as to use a given stallion or mare or not.
> 
> There is no way I would ever say that no HERDA carriers can ever be used or registered. That is just not realistic.


Yes, it would take loud and persistent public outcry to work against the interests of the big time breeders who control the industry. I wouldn't call a change to the current policy unrealistic, just improbable if folks don't care enough to put higher value on non-carriers. The sport industry could indeed still produce champions without creating more HERDA or GBED carriers going forward.


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## hobbyhorse

Wow!....read on if you think known HERDA Stallions should not be bred in the United States: 
Quarter horse breeders divided over genetic skin disease - 03/05/2011.


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## animalartcreations

The AQHA is going to be offering a panel of tests which will include a test for HERDA so owners can identify horses who are carriers. I don't know if that information will then be printed on a horse's papers, or not. As it is, the tests for HERDA and GBED are available without registry involvement. This move by the AQHA could, however, be the beginning of new regulations for carriers.


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## nrhareiner

animalartcreations said:


> Yes, it would take loud and persistent public outcry to work against the interests of the big time breeders who control the industry. I wouldn't call a change to the current policy unrealistic, just improbable if folks don't care enough to put higher value on non-carriers. The sport industry could indeed still produce champions without creating more HERDA or GBED carriers going forward.


In my mind it has little to do with big time breeders or little breeders. It has everything to do with the quality of the horses involved. If the horse is of high enough quality to over ride the fact that he/she is a HERDA carrier then you use them. If not then you do not use them. I have a very nice g-son of Doc O'Lena out of a g-daughter of Peppy San. Finished reiner. His get where looking very nice. When the test came out I tested him. He was/is a carrier. I weighed his quality vs him being a carrier. I gelded and sold him. Although he was a very nice horse there are many other very nice reining stallions who are not carriers with very similar breeding. SO there was no need to keep him intact. However there are other stallions out there that their quality, show record out weigh they carrier status. 

Again it all comes down to what weight you put on a horse being a carrier.


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## CRRoans

*HERDA - Live Foal Guarantee*

I'm helping a friend select a cutting horse stallion and there is one that he would like to consider that is offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee (uggh! not MY choice but it's not my decision). My question is for those that have seen several of these "guarantees," are they all the same or have you seen variations of the terms? What would be the best wording if you were to select one of these stallions?


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## nrhareiner

Each one is going to be different and you just need to read the contract. I am not sure how you would garentee anything. There is a 50% chance of a carrier passing on the defective gene. 

If the mare is N/N then it would be something that I would look at in the stallion put what weight I think it needs and add it into that other things the stallion has to offer vs what other stallions have to offer. 

HERDA is no different then any other recessive gene. It needs to be treated as such.


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## CRRoans

Yes, I completely understand that. I'm hoping that someone who has reviewed several of these new "genetic live foal guarantees" has details on variations of terms, mare requirements, rebreed/refund, spay/geld to register, etc. 

I realize that this is a hot topic and many are passionate about one side or the other--and I appreciate passion. Yet, in this case, I'm not asking for opinions on what is right vs. wrong in regards to breeding a HERDA carrier. There are plenty of places I can go to quickly review a multitude of evidence/opinions. Yet, there is little to no information that specifically addresses the legal wording of these guarantees to know what minor details might be best to add or remove from a contract.


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## nrhareiner

There is no place b/c it does not exist. What is legal here in a contract may or may not be legal in anouther area of the US. If you want to make sure this contract is legal and binding for your area you need to cantact a Lawyer. That is the only way to do it. I can tell you what I have seen and what others have done but at the end of the day for THAT contract in YOUR area or more precisely the area in which it would be ejudicated you need to contact an attorny. That is the ONLY way you will really have a good handle on it.


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## CRRoans

*HERDA - Live Foal Guarantee*

If any forum member has first hand knowledge/experience involving a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee--terms and conditions (from personal experience or a close friend) I would like to hear your thoughts. If you would prefer to contact me privately to avoid confrontation on the forum, please email me at [email protected]


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## nrhareiner

I am giving you first hand knowlage. If you choise not to take it then so be it. You can put anything into a contract that you wish. The wording will come down to where you live in the US. I have changed many contracts over the years in regards to breeding and training. I have never used a trainers contract. I always use one that was prepaired by an attorny. If you do not like that fact or do not wish to pay the money then you get what you get.

If you what options it will come down to what YOU want at the end of the day. Do you want a re breed to a HERDA carrier and hope the second foal is neg? Or do you want your money back? What if you breed again and get anouther HERDA pos foal? Then what. There are many things you need to think about and put into a contract. However no matter what you put in a contract that is legal here may not be legal in Tx or Ca.


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## nrhareiner

I will also tell you this as a stallion owner. I would not give a HERDA Neg Gaurentee. For a very simple reason. HERDA carriers are no different the any outher horse. SO what the mare owner gets 2 foals for the price of one? If I where to do it then I would get the carrier foal back before the mare owner gets a rebreed. As there is nothing wrong with the first foal and that foal can go on to have along and productive life as a show horse.


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## Kayella

My foal to be's great great great great grandsire is Poco Bueno, quite far back actually. I contacted my breeder to see if the dam had been tested for HERDA because of her lineage, but she hasn't tested her before. However, she is testing the mare now to see if she is a carrier for the disease. Do I care if my foal might possibly be a carrier for HERDA? Not really, because I most likely will not breed my foal down the road. And if I did, I would most certainly get my horse tested before I did. My breeder is testing her mare, and will let future customers as well as myself if the mare will be a carrier or not. I think it says alot about her, that she's going to test her mare just because I said something. But it definitely will put future customers at ease.


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## CRRoans

nrhareiner, 

Are you saying that you stand a HERDA carrier stallion or have bred to a HERDA carrier stallion in the past?

The information you have given is fine for general purposes but in this case, with what I am asking, you are just stating the obvious. I've read your posts and appreciate your input and agree with you on what you are saying, so far. Yet, I'm seeking more information.


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## nrhareiner

Yes I had a stallion who is a HERDA carrier. He was/is a g-son of Doc O'Lena out of a g-d of Peppy San. Finished reining horse. Very nice his foals are quite nice. I did stand and breed him before the test was available. When he came back a carrier I gelded and sold him. As nice as he was he offered nothing that other stallions who where not carriers had to offer. So no reason to keep him a stallion and I did not want a gelding. I also had a g-d of Poco Bueno out of a g-d of King and although she was never tested I would bet she was a carrier. I got 2 foals out of her. One was sold and gelded and the other I still have and is part of my show/broodmare band. She has been tested and is N/N however even if she was a carrier I would have little problem breeding her. Only differance is the choice of stallions.

As for your question. What is it you are wanting as an end goal? What do you loose or gain if the resuling for is a carrier or not? What is the mare like? If the mare high enough quality that crossed with this stallion could produce a stud prospect? If not then who cares if the resulting foal is a carrier or not?

Again what is it you want at the end of the day. Figure that out and then put that into the contract. 

Take a look at Color foal gaurentees as that is about as close as you are going to get.

Also keep in mind that no matter what the gaurentee states that you (mare owner) will still have all the breeding cost again. So even if you get a re breed you will still end up with chut fee shipped semen fees mare care fees vet fees and so on. SO you need to figure out what you want at the end of the day. Until you do there is nothing I can tell you that would help. If I knew the answer to that then I could give some direction.


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## CLaPorte432

Unfortunately, the road goes both ways. 

As a mare owner, I wouldn't breed my mare to a carrier. That's my responsibility and I'm responsible for that foal and the outcome. Why would I want to risk losing my foal when I could have found an equally attractive stallion that is negative for all genetic defects. They are out there, it's the mare owners responsibility to look and breed the best possible foal from a stallion/mare combo. 

There should be stipulations out there for breeding known carriers. AQHA won't be registering any H/H horses anymore for HYPP. Maybe they will be wise and not allow N/H horses to be bred. 

We would wipe out all of the carriers in just one breeding generation if everyone was responsible. Fix everything that's a carrier. Boom, problem solved.


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## CLaPorte432

nrhareiner said:


> I will also tell you this as a stallion owner. I would not give a HERDA Neg Gaurentee. For a very simple reason. HERDA carriers are no different the any outher horse. SO what the mare owner gets 2 foals for the price of one? If I where to do it then I would get the carrier foal back before the mare owner gets a rebreed. As there is nothing wrong with the first foal and that foal can go on to have along and productive life as a show horse.


I wouldn't either. Who's to say that the mare being bred isn't a HERDA carrier? How can you possibly give a guarantee when you only own half the genes that create the foal?


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## nrhareiner

CLaPorte432 said:


> Unfortunately, the road goes both ways.
> 
> As a mare owner, I wouldn't breed my mare to a carrier. That's my responsibility and I'm responsible for that foal and the outcome. Why would I want to risk losing my foal when I could have found an equally attractive stallion that is negative for all genetic defects. They are out there, it's the mare owners responsibility to look and breed the best possible foal from a stallion/mare combo.
> * You have no risk by breeding a non carrier to a carrier. Unlike HyPP it takes two to get an afflicted horse. So no big deal.*
> 
> 
> There should be stipulations out there for breeding known carriers. AQHA won't be registering any H/H horses anymore for HYPP. Maybe they will be wise and not allow N/H horses to be bred.
> 
> *What I think you will start seeing with the $85 deal AQHA is offering through Davis for 5 different test is the results of all on the horses papers.*
> 
> We would wipe out all of the carriers in just one breeding generation if everyone was responsible. Fix everything that's a carrier. Boom, problem solved.


Where do you stop? If you did not breed a carrier of any genetic deffect you would not be breeding any horses at all. Every horse has defects. It is just that simple. Even if you narrow it down to things like HERDA GBED all the recessive defect again where do you stop? Do you stop at HERDA and/or GBED or do you include OLW SW2 SW3 all HZ leathal. 

There is nothing wrong with carriers. They are not afflicted they are just like any other horse out there. So why is it such a big deal? As long as you test and do not breed 2 carriers you are fine.


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## nrhareiner

CLaPorte432 said:


> I wouldn't either. Who's to say that the mare being bred isn't a HERDA carrier? How can you possibly give a guarantee when you only own half the genes that create the foal?


 
Real simple Test. That is all you have to do it test your breeding horses and do not cross 2 carriers. As long as one is N/N then you will NEVER get an afflicted horse.


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## CLaPorte432

I should have specified a little better. I know its as easy as not breeding a carrier to another carrier. Im saying, that not everyone is honest and for some people, its very easy to lie to get what you want. You can vouch for your stallions tests and records, but what about the mare that you dont own?

And your exactly right, there isnt one *perfect* horse in the world. There is always some flaw, somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner

Again test. If you have a carrier stallion require test results from UC Davis or a reputable lab. Kind of like show my the money. Show my the test. 

Also with the new 5 in 1 test throuhg AQHA what I am hopping is that the results will get onto the horses papers or at the very least into the horses AQHA records just like the HyPP results does. This way no hidding it.


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## Tapperjockey

Just about every horse has something they can pass genetically. Unlike HYPP, where you do not need 2 copies of the gene to have the physical traits, HERDA in recessive form is harmless. The only time it's an issue is when you breed 2 HERDA carriers to each other (and then it only is about 25% of the time). Why pass up on the opportunity to breed to some outstanding horses, just because you need to pony up (no pun intended) to have your mare tested before deciding? 
It's similar to SCID in Arabians or LWOS in Pintos/Paints. if a horse is a carrier.. they are just like any other horse, just have 1 gene that you need to be careful when selecting a mate for them. I know of a few SCID carrier stallions that require mare owners supply a negative test when applying to get a breeding, and I'm sure most stallion owners with a Herda postive stallion would require that as well. 

It's really, not that big of a deal, unless you don't want to test your mare. And if that is the case, I recommend not breeding at all.


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## Kayella

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CRRoans

*HERDA - Live Foal Guarantee*



CRRoans said:


> I'm helping a friend select a cutting horse stallion and there is one that he would like to consider that is offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee (uggh! not MY choice but it's not my decision). My question is for those that have seen several of these "guarantees," are they all the same or have you seen variations of the terms? What would be the best wording if you were to select one of these stallions?


This friend has a mare (neg. for GBED/HERDA/PSSM) worthy of a stud fee in excess of $20,000 to the #1 cutting horse sire which just happens to be the stallion offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee. That is my reason for asking--the reason I'm seeking first hand experience from others who are accustom to the terms and conditions of such a clause.

I'm not a person that feels the need to influence others by opinion, rather facts. So, while I have my own opinion, the choice is ultimately his and I will keep my opinion to myself (although I did share it in the original post). I'm not seeking an "answer," just seeking facts. Thanks for your input.


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## Tapperjockey

CRRoans said:


> This friend has a mare (neg. for GBED/HERDA/PSSM) worthy of a stud fee in excess of $20,000 to the #1 cutting horse sire which just happens to be the stallion offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee. That is my reason for asking--the reason I'm seeking first hand experience from others who are accustom to the terms and conditions of such a clause.
> 
> I'm not a person that feels the need to influence others by opinion, rather facts. So, while I have my own opinion, the choice is ultimately his and I will keep my opinion to myself (although I did share it in the original post). I'm not seeking an "answer," just seeking facts. Thanks for your input.


I've only seen SCID ones. Pretty much the terms are.. if the foal is a SCID carrier (they only breed clear mares, so no affected foals are born) you are entitled to one free breeding, upon the castration if it's a colt (no need to spay a filly though). 

One other I have seen is that if you return the foal to them, you will get another breeding (only one more) to try for a clear foal. 

Most aren't doing those now though, because there is more education available about SCID, and testing, and no need to have any worry about it. But when people were very scared about it, that did ease some minds.


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## nrhareiner

CRRoans said:


> This friend has a mare (neg. for GBED/HERDA/PSSM) worthy of a stud fee in excess of $20,000 to the #1 cutting horse sire which just happens to be the stallion offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee. That is my reason for asking--the reason I'm seeking first hand experience from others who are accustom to the terms and conditions of such a clause.
> 
> I'm not a person that feels the need to influence others by opinion, rather facts. So, while I have my own opinion, the choice is ultimately his and I will keep my opinion to myself (although I did share it in the original post). I'm not seeking an "answer," just seeking facts. Thanks for your input.


 
If you are looking at a HERDA carrier stallion who stud fees are over $20K then they are going to have a contract that states what they will do if you get a carrier foal. So why are you asking here? What I would do or say or what others offer will not matter as this is not a BYB operation and they are only going to do what they are going to do and it is spelled out in their contract like it or leave it.

I would imagine that you would have to return the foal to them to get anouther breeding for the next year. I know that how I would do it if I was the stallion owner. Especially considering the stud fee.


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## WSArabians

I think this post is ridiclous. 
Just be responsible and test your mares.


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## nrhareiner

I do not think this has anything to do with testing of mares. I think it is about stallion owners trying to get more mares to breed to a carrier stallion. There are so many nice non carrier stallions out there why breed to a carrier? However if this stallion is actually has a $20K stud fee not sure why they need to offer anything to get mares in for breeding? When you get to that level no one is going to really care. However I see where this could be a win win for the stallion owner. If you offer this gaurentee and to get anouther breeding the mare owner has to turn over the carrier foal. So the stallion owner gets some nice foals by their stallion out of mares they never had to buy or keep. Sounds like this would be more of a benifite to the stallion owner then the mare owners. That is if that is the deal not saying it is as I have not read the contract. So with out knowing exaclty what the contract states...


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## WSArabians

nrhareiner said:


> I do not think this has anything to do with testing of mares. I think it is about stallion owners trying to get more mares to breed to a carrier stallion. There are so many nice non carrier stallions out there why breed to a carrier? However if this stallion is actually has a $20K stud fee not sure why they need to offer anything to get mares in for breeding? When you get to that level no one is going to really care. However I see where this could be a win win for the stallion owner. If you offer this gaurentee and to get anouther breeding the mare owner has to turn over the carrier foal. So the stallion owner gets some nice foals by their stallion out of mares they never had to buy or keep. Sounds like this would be more of a benifite to the stallion owner then the mare owners. That is if that is the deal not saying it is as I have not read the contract. So with out knowing exaclty what the contract states...


Stallion owners are going to try and make mare owners breed to them because they are a carrier. That's silly. They're going to.use their show record and pedigree; not their HERDA status. 
Why not breed to a carrier if he is proven? There's a lot worse reasons to not breed. Spooks Gotta Gun throws babies that half the time end up with bad front legs, but people still pay whatever his stallion fee is and take that chance. I don't see how that makes any more sense.
As long as the stallion owner is honest about his status so mare owners can make a educated decision, I see no problem with standing a carrier. 
Genetic diseases like this will keep appearing - one day a new one will appear in a new line and if we weed out all the carriers ( some who have founded some breeds) we may as well just let horses die out.


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## nrhareiner

I think you need to go back and ready what I typed. I have no problems using carrier stallions as long as there are other things about them that out weigh that.

My point is that there are stallion owners out there especially before the test was available that would give HERDA free gaurnetees. It was a way to get mares to look at their stallions. It is no differnet today. Excpet there is a test. 

My point is why even bother offering this? One thing comes to mind. If I was a stallion owner this could be a win win depending on how the contract is wrighten. Plus some mare owners just like things like this. I am not sure why a top stallion with that kind of stud fee would bother b/c you are correct they do not need to but that is what was stated in the OP latter post.

I would like to know which stallion this is and I would love to read the contract.


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## CRRoans

Thanks for the input Tapperjockey. Yes, new tests have usually made such guarantees a thing of the past--or so I thought.

Thanks also for those who private messaged.


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## Tapperjockey

CRRoans said:


> Thanks for the input Tapperjockey. Yes, new tests have usually made such guarantees a thing of the past--or so I thought.
> 
> Thanks also for those who private messaged.


Some people are still old school about stuff like that and aren't up on the latest research and stuff.. so it's a fluffy "feel" good thing for them.


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## Callisto04

nrhareiner said:


> I think you need to go back and ready what I typed. I have no problems using carrier stallions as long as there are other things about them that out weigh that.
> 
> My point is that there are stallion owners out there especially before the test was available that would give HERDA free gaurnetees. It was a way to get mares to look at their stallions. It is no differnet today. Excpet there is a test.
> 
> My point is why even bother offering this? One thing comes to mind. If I was a stallion owner this could be a win win depending on how the contract is wrighten. Plus some mare owners just like things like this. I am not sure why a top stallion with that kind of stud fee would bother b/c you are correct they do not need to but that is what was stated in the OP latter post.
> 
> I would like to know which stallion this is and I would love to read the contract.


Highbrow Cat has a stud fee of 22500 and a Herda guarantee. His son Sophisticated Catt also has a guarantee and it says:

"HERDA Guarantee
In the event the mare bred tests N/Hr for the HERDA gene, a hair sample of the foal produced from this breeding must be tested at an approved laboratory before it reaches 12 months of age. If the foal tests H/H for the HERDA gene, the owner must return registration certificate* of the foal and a signed transfer to Brightstone Ranch. Upon receipt of signed transfer, Brightstone Ranch will refund paid breeding fee, and also issue a complimentary breeding for another mare belonging to the mare owner. 
* If registration has not been submitted, mating certificate must be returned."

It's a guarantee in case the foal is HRD/HRD.


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## nrhareiner

Callisto04 said:


> Highbrow Cat has a stud fee of 22500 and a Herda guarantee. His son Sophisticated Catt also has a guarantee and it says:
> 
> "HERDA Guarantee
> In the event the mare bred tests N/Hr for the HERDA gene, a hair sample of the foal produced from this breeding must be tested at an approved laboratory before it reaches 12 months of age. If the foal tests H/H for the HERDA gene, the owner must return registration certificate* of the foal and a signed transfer to Brightstone Ranch. Upon receipt of signed transfer, Brightstone Ranch will refund paid breeding fee, and also issue a complimentary breeding for another mare belonging to the mare owner.
> * If registration has not been submitted, mating certificate must be returned."
> 
> It's a guarantee in case the foal is HRD/HRD.


Why would you even wast your time breeding a N/Hr mare to him? Why wast a year of your mares life with a chance of getting afflicted foal. To me that is stupid. Although I am sure there are thouse out there that would will and have done it. I personally would not wast the time.

The thing is they are not giving a guarentee that the horse will not be a carrier. So you still have a high chance that you will end up with a carrier foal. Not the worst thing in the world but again why take a chance. 

I have no problem breeding a carrier to a non carrier but that is as fare as that would go.


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## Callisto04

nrhareiner said:


> Why would you even wast your time breeding a N/Hr mare to him? Why wast a year of your mares life with a chance of getting afflicted foal. To me that is stupid. Although I am sure there are thouse out there that would will and have done it. I personally would not wast the time.
> 
> The thing is they are not giving a guarentee that the horse will not be a carrier. So you still have a high chance that you will end up with a carrier foal. Not the worst thing in the world but again why take a chance.
> 
> I have no problem breeding a carrier to a non carrier but that is as fare as that would go.


Of course there's no guarantee the foal won't be a carrier. Chances are 50% it will be, so it would be rather expensive to cover that. It seems High Brow Cat is bred to lots of Smart Little Lena daughters. Statistically half of them are carriers too.


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## MacabreMikolaj

It's funny to me how OLWS is never treated the same as other diseases. I know the main argument is because of the fun color frame provides, but how is it any different then desiring the muscles of a HYPP horse or the elasticity and athleticism of a HERDA horse?

It's frustrating how little OLWS is in the limelight, and as a result, how little testing gets done. I swear it's like people don't even know about it where I live. I see foals advertised constantly by blatantly frame parents - both of them.

So those of you who wouldn't breed to a HERDA carrier - would you breed to a confirmed frame overo stallion with a non frame overo mare? No risk of an OLWS foal, but obviously the foal could be a "carrier".


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## Super Nova

MacabreMikolaj said:


> It's funny to me how OLWS is never treated the same as other diseases. I know the main argument is because of the fun color frame provides, but how is it any different then desiring the muscles of a HYPP horse or the elasticity and athleticism of a HERDA horse?
> 
> It's frustrating how little OLWS is in the limelight, and as a result, how little testing gets done. I swear it's like people don't even know about it where I live. I see foals advertised constantly by blatantly frame parents - both of them.
> 
> So those of you who wouldn't breed to a HERDA carrier - would you breed to a confirmed frame overo stallion with a non frame overo mare? No risk of an OLWS foal, but obviously the foal could be a "carrier".


Not a breeder....but have have breed my mare once..........not a quarter horse person but I would never breed any horse with one copy of any genetic disorder to another horse with or with out another genetic disorder.

I have a horse with PSSM that is unrideable and I will likely put down some time in the future.

I think it is disgusting that any one would breed a horse with even one copy of a genetic disorder including OLWS.

Super Nova


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