# About riding bitless...



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I've been offline for a week--on vacation in CO--so I missed the beginning of the infamous thread that TinyLiny said ran through it's spool. (That's a sewing joke.) Here are my two cent's worths of MHO's. I believe that when we've lived through/learned stuff from many decades, we OWE it to others new to horseowners to tell them truths. 
*FIRST, *bits are not cruel. Hands and riders can, but usually don't, destroy mouths and faces with bits, bosals AND bitless bridles. USUALLY it's a combination of poor or no training, arrogance and a bad temper, like this girl who would punch her Arabian in the face when she left the show ring minus a ribbon. She didn't even need equipment to do THAT. =/ 
*SECOND,* I believe that know a lot, but I just eat up the threads here and ALL of the online and TV trainers that I can watch and books I can read bc I never know what I've missed. For instance, I recently learned that horses with short backs need to be cued closer to the girth, and horses with long backs won't respond well unless you cue further back. SEEMS obvious, but I never thought about it until an expert brought it up. I've got Julie Goodnight's book on different methods of reining on my Christmas list, too, even though I already rein in several different ways to communicate with my horses. 
*THIRD,* we should use the equipment that our teachers have used for thousands of years successfully, until and unless something better comes along. Europeans rode without stirrups until they saw them used by the Asian invaders, so they adopted them. Bits have been used the whole time, and some peoples used a halter of sorts, or, as in the Plains Indians, a loop of rope through the mouth and under the jaw--the bitless bridle ISN'T new. Like Rookie said, most horses change hands many times throughout their lives, so it short-changes them for YOU to eliminate training that jeapardizes the possibility of a new, GOOD home when you sell that horse. That means your horse should be able to be ridden with at LEAST a snaffle bit, broken or straight mouthed. Even better to sell a horse that direct reins on a snaffle, neck reins and stops with a leather "chain", as well as a metal curb chain.
FEW horses have a FOREVER HOME, which is yet another horse/dog/cat/ferret/goldfish ???--PET fad. If you can train your horse to behave obediently without a bit, and behave like "Rugged Lark", WOW!! he's worth a lot of $ IMO!!!
*FOURTH,* it's not fair to newbies to push bitless on them. TOO MANY don't think about how powerful their horses are and TOO MANY already get hurt just trying to ride their new mounts--I refuse to encourage anybody to "fly" before they can walk. "Rugged Lark" had who-knows-how-many-hours of expert training by Lynn Palm before she did those 10 years of demos. Just like ballerinas aren't allowed to learn pointe before their muscles and training are ready, our horses shouldn't be even Tried bitless before THEIR training is ready. Most of us eke out our riding/training time as it is.
*FIFTH,* most of us want our horses to enjoy the things we do with them. We don't thoughtlessly slam the saddle on their backs or crack their teeth with the bit while bridling. I walk my dogs with choke chains but I had one dog who pulled you up the street without the collar with the pegs in it--all 30 pounds of her! We select what's best and we get online here to ask opinions on our choices bc we DO care. Even so, NOBODY wants to ride a horse out of control, and that little bit of metal makes a BIG difference in control. God even made a space for it in the horse's mouth. 

FINALLY, with WWAAAAAAYYYY too many unwanted horses and way too many homeless horses, we do the best we can with what we have. MY horses are lucky enough to have pasture 1/2 the year and 4 acres of turnout AND company AND a nice stall when the weather is icy and nasty AND they all 3 work a whole lot less than I do AND I have enough food for them in this DEPRESSION. I just ask for an hour once in awhile. I expect my horses to enjoy their training time with me, and when they stop grazing to walk over to me in the pasture to visit,and when I walk out with the halter and they come to ME, and when there's no nervousness when tacking and riding, I KNOW that we have a good relationship. I own many bits and at least 6 different types and I've used them all on over 30 horses over the years, successfully. I've never bloodied a horse's mouth, but I have had a mouth rubbed by a bit--you ride and train long enough and it happens--and I changed bits when that has happened. Do you change bitless bridles when they rub?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I wanted to respond to some of the excellent points posted on that...other...thread.

Punkstank, I agree that rope halters are NOT designed for riding in, and inexperienced riders will lose control of their horses.

Sorrel Horse, I KNOW how much work it has taken for you to ride your mare bridleless and LISTENING--thanks for the photo (in the infamous other thread) to back it up.

Saddlebag, isn't it great that we can communicate (by changing bits) the "game" we're playing with our horses by the tack?

SpeedRacer, agreed with bitless bridles hurting the face. I've seen mechanical hackamores, the "bitless bridle" of it's day, rub the hide off of horses, hence, not gentle. I wonder, too, about the Mylar contraptions that connect with the poll, too. I prefer to use a pulley system ONLY with a bitting rig, while I am on the ground, training. (That's a pun on "ground training," ha, ha)

bsms, you are right--every horse is an individual, and some will listen well without a bit, and some won't. I would NEVER ride Corporal without a bit. He LOVED to run, even in his old age, and couldn't be trusted without at least a snaffle in his mouth.

BlueSpark, you are SOOOOO right about the stupid horse fads, like the Bitless Bridle one. I'M sick of them, too.

BobtheBuilder, I HAVE seen the wrong of my ways. This happens a LOT to me bc I read posts here and study trainer's methods. Everything IS cruel when used incorrectly. 

Highstepperlove, IDK know why, either--owned TWH'ers or crosses since 1986--but my KMH mare rides at the amble or lope best when she lightly leans on the bit. Must help with balance or something.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Just a little "bit" of advice if you want to argue online. We LOVE riding and working with horses and our other animals bc you can never know it all. What a wonderful time we live in where we can get quick answers to training problems that elude us, JUST by getting online, like this forum. When I don't agree with an opinion, I prefer to agree to disagree OR just not post.--I don't get to argue with my DH, an atty, bc he says I have to pay for one, like everybody else. 


One, more thing...
COWCHICK, WHERE did you get that new Avatar picture?!?! TOTALLY ROFL!!!!


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## xxxxxxxxSocalgirl (Aug 22, 2012)

I think any horse can be safely controlled with a bosal, or well knotted rope hackamore. A regular rope halter would simply not do the same. Especially with a hot, or green horse. In my opinion they do not rub at all (unless you're hanging on the horses face). So yes horrible hands make bloody mouths and rub marks, but with a green rider I'd prefer them to hurt the horse less and use something they can't bully the horse they're riding with. 

While I don't think bits are abuse, I do believe many people use them simply for the sake of showing. The ribbon winners, and such are so well trained they could easily be ridden without any tack but people use pain bits because... they want to compete. I just don't think this is just. but... it will always be that way sadly. 

ps just agreeing to disagree here, not starting a debate. (need more posts to do more things here)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corporal said:


> ...bsms, you are right--every horse is an individual, and some will listen well without a bit, and some won't. I would NEVER ride Corporal without a bit. He LOVED to run, even in his old age, and couldn't be trusted without at least a snaffle in his mouth...


Mia & I were out today with Trooper & my daughter. The weather has cleared a section of trail near me about 1/3 mile long so that it has no significant gullies and no big rocks. My daughter wanted to try a canter, so I put Mia in front, told Mia she was a ham-hoofed POS who probably couldn't trot - that being our normal signal that a canter is imminent - then asked her to go. She went. Leaped into a canter, and about 5 strides after that switched into a gallop.

In her defense, based on what I can piece together, it is likely she hadn't ever galloped in the open before (apart from bolting). Her life has been filled with corrals and small arenas. With a trail opening up ahead and a rider who wanted something faster than a trot...well, she delivered.

She loved it! You could see the light bulb go on above her head. "I'm a horse, and I'm strong, and I can go fast!"

However, the trail takes a sharp 90 deg bend at its end, and Mia isn't known for graceful turns. Slowing her down was a challenge. It took about 50 yards to get her down to a canter, and another 50 to get her down to a trot.

Then she behaved like a lady. Trot, walk, jog - anything you want, bsms! So we went back to the beginning and tried again. And...

"I'm a horse, and I'm strong, and I can go fast!"

In fairness to her, I gave her her head most of the way. But near the end, my thighs went against the Aussie-style poleys and I WORKED to get her to calm down!

And again, after we stopped she was a lady. "Anything you want, bsms!"

When we got home, I asked her for a canter around the arena, and she picked up a relaxed, controlled canter. But I think she discovered that "I'm a horse, and I'm strong, and I can go fast!"

FWIW, she had a full cheek snaffle today. I have no idea if she would have responded to a bitless bridle, but I wouldn't bet on it. And yes, it is a training issue. We've had training issues for 4 years, and they are not over. But Mia may end up like Corporal...running today, I could feel the joy in her body. She was as nice and as willing as could be today, after we slowed down. But when asked to speed it up with an open trail ahead of her...she was happy. Very happy.

*Oh...and Trooper?* My daughter lost her stirrups both times, and Trooper slowed to a trot the moment she asked him to, even with Mia out ahead opening up the gap. Trooper is still "just a little trooper", as the saying goes that gave him his name. Thank God not all horses are like Mia, but I admit to being thankful that Mia *IS* like Mia. Whatever else she is, she isn't dull...

From June:


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Thank you for the compliment on my mare.  She came to me with a wonderful foundation but a major attitude so we had to work hard to find our balance and communication between me and her.

This is an excellent post, I'm glad you put it up for us to read.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Also I have an older gelding who was a kids horse who is virtually ruined in the face. I tried so hard to get him back into a french link snaffle but there was no way. I got him to the point where I COULD go in a snaffle should I need to, and I can walk/trot around in a rope halter in a pinch, but I would never think of doing much without our Billy Allen shank bit. It's a soft curb bit, but still a curb bit. He is 20 years old and for 16 of those years he was ridden by idiots who yanked on his face, bloodied him, and brought him to the point where I believe he doesn't even feel bits like other horses do anymore.

I no longer try to change him to fit bitless; He is a wonderful, wonderful horse who I trust with my life. He has been helping me pull around the young horses, calves, little kids on sleds, and various other things as well as still giving me the pleasure of flying down a trail in the mountains at full speed and swimming in the lake, and he's even gone to a few shows and done alright. Just last summer he won an endurance ride at age 19. 

I don't want to try and change him. He's happy with the bit he has. No reason to bit down, no reason to bit up. He's solid, even if he is hard in the face. As wonderful as he is I wouldn't trust him flying full speed down the track with nothing but a neck rope like I would Selena.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I hear the twilight zone music playing......or is this déjà vu:shock:


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## Flickie (Oct 14, 2012)

*Bitless*

Bitless works on their pressure points so their not nicer than bites, some bites can be cruel, but if you dont gerk, and sore their mouth with them its fine, i have nothing against either, only some cruel bites.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Corporal said:


> most horses change hands many times throughout their lives, so it short-changes them for YOU to eliminate training that jeapardizes the possibility of a new, GOOD home when you sell that horse.


this is a good point (and the reason i don't ride bitless often), but has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with industry standards. and this being a nearly entirely unresearched matter, standards can't be trusted as true.

also does anyone have anything non-circumstantial to add?


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

Flickie said:


> Bitless works on their pressure points so their not nicer than bites, some bites can be cruel, but if you dont gerk, and sore their mouth with them its fine, i have nothing against either, only some cruel bites.


I agree with you, but the sad truth is that many people use bits in a very very cruel way. So the overall impression of using bits is rather bad.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Pain isn't always bad. If your horse is afraid (bolting) or very excited, then it may require pain to break thru the horse's emotional high and convey information. If you've ever been on a bolting horse who is headed toward a barbed wire fence or concealed drop, then you know what I mean. Better some pain on the face (or in it) than severe injury or death to the horse and rider.

It is nice for folks to talk about how every horse should be trained to a level where bits aren't needed, but I don't live in that world. Most horses do not either. Most recreational riders don't have their own arena, and most don't have time to work with their horse daily. And while I've spent a LOT of time on Mia, she is a fairly intense horse. I'm thrilled so many people have horses who always listen to their rider's farts, but mine does not. She will when calm, but in my world at least, horses aren't always calm.

If I see someone riding with a harsh bit & slack in the reins, that doesn't make him a bad rider. If they ride with a harsh bit AND are pulling on it all the time or for balance, THEN he is a bad rider. Someone who thrashes the reins around because they are mad is a bad rider. Someone who pulls hard because of a barbed wire fence ahead, or a highway, is doing the horse a favor.

IMHO.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Corporal said:


> One, more thing...
> COWCHICK, WHERE did you get that new Avatar picture?!?! TOTALLY ROFL!!!!


Someone (cant remember who!) posted it in one of the infamous Rick Gore threads I think....loved it, Googled "good job" images and it popped up..had to have it!


I agree with your original post. 
It really is about who is using the equipment whether it be bit or bitless. If you do not know how to use that equipment it can be just as useless as tits on a boar. But in the right hands that equipment can communicate and get results without installing fear or pain.
I have said I start colts in a halter, when I mean start, I mean about three rides, not 30-90. I simply use the halter as a transition from the little ground work I do in it- to me on their back and transition them packing a snaffle to me using the snaffle. After that I evaluate and experiment with what snaffle they seem to like to pack. But that short time in the halter seems to make an impression because in a pinch(jumping a horse out of the trailer and ride in a halter to gather a pair or rope a yearling) I can go back to it and they respond.
What that tells me is that I am not "upping" into to bits to gain control. 

I have already said this in the previous threads on the subject, so I am beating the dead horse but....

Usually the thoughts about bits being cruel comes from folks that don't understand how they work when used correctly. They think they are doing their horses a big favor "naturally" by riding in a halter when in fact what I have witnessed in some situations they can't manage well, let a lone a bit.

I also use a hackamore(a bosal setup, not mechanical). I grew up with the understanding that a hackamore(again a bosal setup) was a temporary training step, not a final goal. The hackamore was to keep out of a young horses mouth while his mouth was changing, maturing and to prepare him for the bridle. I have worked for a guy that would not hire you or fire you if you stepped out of the saddle barn with a hackamore hanging on a horses head. Most(and I include myself) can't ride well enough to keep a horse truly soft and responsive in a high stress situation outside with a hackamore. Last time I checked there are very few that won cowhorse shows with a hackamore against folks with a bit. 
A horse can tolerate a lot more in his mouth than he can on his nose...look at all the people who can't even lead their horses or control them on the ground with a halter. You can deaden a nose faster than a mouth.

Don't get me wrong, If you want to ride in nothing but a halter and you can, go for it...but don't tell me I am an abuser because I don't.

Okay..I think I am really done with the subject


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!! as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday! how would you like it if some human shoved metal into your mouth and started yanking you around with it! at least look at how a horse is controlled with a bit ... when a horse feels pressure, they move off of pressure. you r not pulling the horse to the side, you r putting pressure on one side of the mouth and the horse is moving off of that pressure. when you put a bit into a horses mouth, you are not only creating pressure but also pain in some cases. and don't think that you cant cause pain in a snaffle because to can cause pain in any bit.. if you use a rope halter, you cause not pain and only pressure!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!!
> *I think you need to rethink what you know and do not know. TO say all and never when it comes to horses just shows you lack of knowlage and under standing.*
> 
> as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday!
> ...


A bitless bridle can cause just as much if not more pain then a bit in the wrong hands vs the right hands. A bit is no better or worse then a halter or a rope halter. I can do just as much damage with a rope halter as I can with a bit. What I can not do with a rope halter that I can do with a bit is give the very subtle cues needed for what I do. I want to be able to have draped reins and be able to cue my horse with only having to move my hand less then a inch. This causes no pain and really no pressure. Is is a pre cue and when added in with seat and leg cues you can get a horse to do just about anthing.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

*sighs* This means I'm a meanie poopie head barn witch doesn't it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!! as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday...if you use a rope halter, you cause not pain and only pressure!


Well, I've used a rope halter on Mia when she was too wound up to quit, and she ended up missing a ring of hair around her face. I doubt that was a pain-free ride for Mia.

Can a bit hurt? Yep. But if you have good hands, the bit will only hurt if the horse is choosing to do something dangerous by ignoring its rider. And in that case, the pain may save the horse's life.

But if you think any horse can be ridden bitless, you haven't ridden very many horses. If you think all horses WANT to be ridden bitless, you are wrong. Our gelding Trooper can be ridden bitless, and has been many times. I'd trust him with my daughter bitless without hesitation. So why does he have a bit? It is because he relaxes more with a bit in his mouth. Shocking but true - he likes to obey his rider, and he feels more confident he knows what his rider wants when he has a bit, so he relaxes more when ridden with a bit.

Bitless works well for some horses. But the bitless fanatics need to stop watching YouTube videos and try riding more horses in more situations. *And I'm writing that as someone who rode for 3 years before trying bits*...:shock:



nrhareiner said:


> ...What I can not do with a rope halter that I can do with a bit is give the very subtle cues needed for what I do...


This! When Mia is nervous, I can calm her with a bit. Bitless, she just continues to spin up until she melts down and panics. If I insist on riding bitless with her, I'm putting my pride ahead of her needs while endangering both of us.

The picture below was taken about 30 seconds into my first ever attempt at cantering. Notice Trooper was bitless. It was his first time cantering in over a year as well, but I didn't want to take a chance on pulling on his mouth and I trusted him to be sensible. But Trooper isn't every horse...he sure as heck isn't like Mia!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

BBBCrone said:


> *sighs* This means I'm a meanie poopie head barn witch doesn't it.


Yes you are......actually you're a meanie doodie poopie head barn witch! :lol:


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!! as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday! how would you like it if some human shoved metal into your mouth and started yanking you around with it! at least look at how a horse is controlled with a bit ... when a horse feels pressure, they move off of pressure. you r not pulling the horse to the side, you r putting pressure on one side of the mouth and the horse is moving off of that pressure. when you put a bit into a horses mouth, you are not only creating pressure but also pain in some cases. and don't think that you cant cause pain in a snaffle because to can cause pain in any bit.. if you use a rope halter, you cause not pain and only pressure!


Yup you're right, any horse can be ridden bitless.....but not any horse can be trained and refined into a good broke pleasure to ride horse in a halter or bit less bridle. I prefer my horses to be broke and sensitive, not coddled and hardened.

With these kinds of thread I sometimes wonder if the people who respond that bits are painful and cruel have ever ridden a real broke snappy cow horse or reining horse before? or if they just live in Unicornia with the butterfly farts and all the horses poop glitter and sparkles......sigh


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## LoveHipHop (Mar 27, 2012)

Hippy was originally ridden in just a snaffle, but he didnt go well in a bit so we switched to bitless and he's so much happier! Its kinda reassuring that he can be ridden in a bit but at the moment im happy to ride him in whatever he is most comfy in  I guess all horses are different


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> Yes you are......actually you're a meanie doodie poopie head barn witch! :lol:


Sweet!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!! as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday! how would you like it if some human shoved metal into your mouth and started yanking you around with it! at least look at how a horse is controlled with a bit ... when a horse feels pressure, they move off of pressure. you r not pulling the horse to the side, you r putting pressure on one side of the mouth and the horse is moving off of that pressure. when you put a bit into a horses mouth, you are not only creating pressure but also pain in some cases. and don't think that you cant cause pain in a snaffle because to can cause pain in any bit.. if you use a rope halter, you cause not pain and only pressure!



This post just proved the whole point of this thread...good job ACowgirlThing778!


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

I have been taught that you ride bitless (for both rider and horse) until you don't need a bridle at all, then you ride bridleless. Once bridleless is good you then ride with a bit to help shape, not control, the horse.
I realise that this is not the reality for most folks, but it is an ideal to aspire to and gives you a good idea where you are on the path of your and your horses development. 
It also places a nice emphasis on what the bit is actually supposed to be used for. It is to help shape the horses flexion (lateral and vertical) whilst the body is controlling where the horses feet actually go. Again this is the ideal to aspire to and again it gives a good benchmark as to where refinement is needed in both yours and your horses training.


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## JMWeldy (Dec 23, 2012)

I ride my gelding in just a rope halter and have for the past 11 years, he is now 14. I owned both his parents and also am the only person who has ever ridden him. I see a lot of folks ride horses in just halters that have no business doing it and it's quite scary. My horse is very light in the halter, takes both leads from a stand still on the straight away, side passes, backs forever with barely a lift of the reins and does a pretty fair 360 spin although nothing compared to a finished reining horse. I have ridden him on trails that most people would not even think of going on and have always trusted him 100% where ever I point him. He may be the exception to the rule, I don't know, but I would not trade him for anything on this earth. He will die on our place and be buried next to his father.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ALL OF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! ANY HORSE CAN BE RIDDEN BITTLESS!!!!!! as a matter of fact, I ride bareback and bittless everyday! *how would you like it if some human shoved metal into your mouth and started yanking you around with it*! at least look at how a horse is controlled with a bit ... when a horse feels pressure, they move off of pressure. you r not pulling the horse to the side, you r putting pressure on one side of the mouth and the horse is moving off of that pressure. when you put a bit into a horses mouth, you are not only creating pressure but also pain in some cases. and don't think that you cant cause pain in a snaffle because to can cause pain in any bit.. if you use a rope halter, you cause not pain and only pressure!


Now why would you put a bit in a horse's mouth and start yanking them around? I use a bit and I don't yank my horse around. You don't HAVE to do that with a bit you know, and if you DO yank your horse around....then shame on you.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Pegasus1 said:


> I have been taught that you ride bitless (for both rider and horse) until you don't need a bridle at all, then you ride bridleless. Once bridleless is good you then ride with a bit to help shape, not control, the horse.
> I realise that this is not the reality for most folks, but it is an ideal to aspire to and gives you a good idea where you are on the path of your and your horses development.
> It also places a nice emphasis on what the bit is actually supposed to be used for. It is to help shape the horses flexion (lateral and vertical) whilst the body is controlling where the horses feet actually go. Again this is the ideal to aspire to and again it gives a good benchmark as to where refinement is needed in both yours and your horses training.


I think you might have that back wards. Look at some of the best trainers who do bridleless riding. Argubaly THE best at it is Stacy Westfall. She starts all her horses in a bit then works to bridleless and then... Bridleless is the end results of good training. Bridleless/bitless does not produce good training or a well trained sort horse. There is no way to make your cues light enough and be responsive enough to get the horse as light as at least I want.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> I think you might have that back wards. Look at some of the best trainers who do bridleless riding. Argubaly THE best at it is Stacy Westfall. She starts all her horses in a bit then works to bridleless and then... Bridleless is the end results of good training. Bridleless/bitless does not produce good training or a well trained sort horse. There is no way to make your cues light enough and be responsive enough to get the horse as light as at least I want.


And along with this, I do believe the Vaqueros start their horses in a bosal and build up to a bosal And a bit, then they quit using the bosal all together once the horse is resposive and light, then they graduate them through bits up to a spade bit. There are exceptions to this rule, but that is how they train a very light and responsive bridle horse......I want one!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Pegasus1 said:


> I have been taught that you ride bitless (for both rider and horse) until you don't need a bridle at all, then you ride bridleless. Once bridleless is good you then ride with a bit to help shape, not control, the horse...


I believe you were taught wrong. Of course bits were and are used for control. That does NOT mean they are used to punish a horse or to inflict pain, but they are important means of control.

I spent much of my adult life on a flightline. F-4s, F-111s & even a tour in the EA-6B at Whidbey Island. When you walked out on a flightline, there were jets running. Even if you were the first launch of the day, there would be someone running a powercart or doing an engine check. There is a reason we wore earplugs, and there is a reason my hearing is marginal after years doing that. You often had to shout at someone to be heard. You sometimes had to touch them so they would know you wanted them and could focus on you.

Of course, in a library that isn't true. You don't start shouting in a library, and you shouldn't need to grab someone to get them to pay attention to you.

Horses are like that. A relaxed horse, walking in an arena, is in the library. When Mia is in a library, her listening is acute. She can 'hear' my legs, and she can hear it bitless when I take some slack out of the reins. It is easy to hear, in a library.

But horses don't always walk in an arena, and some horses are more excitable than others. And when a horse gets excited - fear, joy, speed, another horse, etc - they leave the library and go to the flightline. Horses are emotional creatures, and their emotions cause background noise. As their emotions get stronger, their ability to 'hear' becomes less.

A horse who sees a coyote just ahead and is afraid, or a horse focused on working cattle, or Mia when she gets to run next to another horse...they're on a flightline surrounded by jet engines. You need some way to cut thru their emotional noise and get them back in touch with YOU. And that is why we have bits.

A bit isn't there to cause pain. It isn't a torture device. It doesn't punish a horse. It is a communication device. The reins are like telegraph wires, sending signals to one of the horse's most sensitive receptors: the mouth.

A bit is an amplifier. It helps get past the emotional noise and help a horse hear his rider. Used at the wrong time, in a library, it is a painful blast of noise. Used on the flightline, it is a critical tool allowing communication. During the in-between places, it allows more subtle communication - talking instead of just waiving arms or pointing.

A harsh bit isn't cruel. It is a strong amplifier. Maybe even the equivalent of when the crew chief for a jet puts on headphones and plugs into the aircraft intercom, so he can hear the pilot speaking. There are no cruel bits, only bits that are stronger than needed or used to shout when a whisper would do.

I rode bitless for 3 years because I bought in to the YouTube Gurus - the videos of how bits are cruel, or people like Rick Gore:"_Answer:Metal bits in the mouth = Less Horsemanship, more pain, and a lack of partnership between horse and rider...Pain rarely makes a horse feel safe! Bits = Pain, especially when both rider and horse get scared and or nervous._"​I was wrong, and so are the Internet Gurus who preach bitless without understanding why bits are used. That doesn't make bitless wrong. For a lot of horses and a lot of riders, bitless is all it takes. My Appy/Arabian gelding is a much calmer horse than Mia. He prefers a bit, but he is quite safe to ride bitless. Some horses NEVER leave the library. Others, like Mia, spend very little time there - so pick the tool that matches your horse and your riding. :wink:

Internet picture that brings back memories:








​


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## dunalino2903 (Apr 22, 2012)

A rope attachment is a mild mild mild bitless attachment, but I do school my horse in a hanging cheek, I find the sweet metal bits are better for horses though.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

BBBCrone said:


> Sweet!!


Get in line behind the rest of us, Missie! :twisted:


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

Here is an extract from the following web page which all can access Natural Horsemanship - The Parelli Method - Technique



 *The Four Savvys – Becoming Horse Savvy The Natural Horsemanship Way*
For you and your horse to really enjoy each other and work together in ways that are joyful, fun, seamless, safe and natural, the Parelli program focuses on helping students become truly horse savvy. Rather than using artificial aids or quick fixes for *your horse problems*, Parelli natural horsemanship helps students develop true understanding and expertise by teaching these *Four Savvys:
*

*On Line* – groundwork
*At liberty* – the horse is free of physical restraint
*FreeStyle *- riding without contact, either a loose rein, or bridle-less and bareback – the ultimate FreeStyle!
*Finesse* – riding with contact, refinement and precision
 
Notice the order. Freestyle includes riding bridle-less and comes before finesse which is riding with a contact. The Parelli levels program is 
Level 1 : Online
Level 2 : Online and Freestyle
Level 3 : Online, Liberty and Freestyle
Level 4 : Online, Liberty, Freestyle and Finesse.

Note there are two levels of Freestyle before riding with a contact in Finesse. Mostly folks ride freestyle either in a hackemore or bridle-less. Once you are used to seeing horses ridden bridle-less it ceases to be something exceptional, it is just a different style.

My wife, Ritchie, and I attended a weekend clinic at James Roberts yard 2 summers ago. It was a charity event so there were lots of riders and horses there. The focus of the exercise was herding a cow, bridle-less. Little did I know that I was to be one of the "cows" as real cow work is actually frowned upon in the UK. Silly I know.
By the middle of day 2 there were 20 + horses being ridden around the outdoor arena bridle-less all at the same time.
I then found myself being herded by my wife riding our horse bridle-less from one end of the school to the other. The first time she had ridden bridle-less.
For a while we were at an all NH yard with lots of teenagers on it. They were amazing riders. They would just play with horses as kids do and I swear they rode bridle-less more than with a bridle (mainly because as kids they were too lazy to put a bridle or indeed saddle on), including jumping. Unfortunately the yard went bankrupt and we had to move.

A last thought. During an interview after winning the Beijing Paralympics Lauren Barwick was asked "You must have really thought outside the box to win here". She replied "Box, what Box ?". This has become one of my favourite thoughts, and not just for riding.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Stop using PP as an example. Watch is videos and watch him ride. He has no FINESSE. 

Then Watch Stacy and wantch her finesse. 

Then you will know how it is really done.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

im sorry if i upset you but ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing. i apologize for being harsh but im sure you know what you r doing (to some extent) but if you do some research you may be able to ride in just a halter! thats what i did! i apologize for my behavior. have a happy new year!


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> Stop using PP as an example. Watch is videos and watch him ride. He has no FINESSE.
> 
> Then Watch Stacy and wantch her finesse.
> 
> Then you will know how it is really done.


I have watched Stacy ride, we have some of her videos and she does provide a small part of the horsemanship puzzle, but then so does Pat, Chris Cox, Buck etc. 

And thanks for the advice but I will still keep watching Pat and others with an open mind.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> im sorry if i upset you but ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing. i apologize for being harsh but im sure you know what you r doing (to some extent) but if you do some research you may be able to ride in just a halter! thats what i did! i apologize for my behavior. have a happy new year!


YOu are the one who sound upset. 

Again you can not clasify every horse into the same catagory. If you do you are the one who is delutional.

As for knowing what I am doing. I think I have proven that enough. RG is the one who knows very very little. You can tell that from what he does in this videos. Sorry but runnig a horse into a fence to get it to stop vs teaching the horse how to stop properly jsut screams not know what he is doing. Maybe you need to go and learn from real trainers who have proven infront of their peirs that they know what they are doing before you start talling others what is and is not correct.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Pegasus1 said:


> I have watched Stacy ride, we have some of her videos and she does provide a small part of the horsemanship puzzle, but then so does Pat, Chris Cox, Buck etc.
> 
> And thanks for the advice but I will still keep watching Pat and others with an open mind.


 
I am very open minded and my open mind tells me this is some croppy riding with no finesse at all. If you want to learn how to ride from someone who does this. Go for it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Pegasus1 said:


> ...Mostly folks ride freestyle either in a hackemore or bridle-less. Once you are used to seeing horses ridden bridle-less it ceases to be something exceptional, it is just a different style...


I'd love to see them try riding Mia bridle-less around a bunch of strange horses. They won't be doing it long. 

Nor does that mean I'm lazy, that I haven't worked with Mia, or that the trainer who spent 6 months working with her is an idiot who just needed to drop the bit and trust Mia. 

I guess I just don't understand how come folks think other folks are too cowardly or too stuck in their ways to ride bitless, as opposed to simply having a lot more experience with horses. Am I supposed to believe that world champion eventers, barrel-racers, polo players, and reiners are using bits because they are too cowardly to trust their horse, or too blind to see how their horse would compete better bitless?

Herding a human in a controlled environment isn't a very demanding task for a horse. It isn't the sort of thing that would get most horses very excited. Nor does it require very detailed communication between horse and rider.

"_ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing_."

You don't have enough experience to make that statement. I know, because it simply isn't true. If you ever encounter an intense horse who gets excited about her 'work', then you will change your tune.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Bits and bitless options are just tools. Some work better in certain situations and with certain horse/rider combos than others.

We have a horse here that always rides bitless and is very responsive in it. We did have to try out a couple styles until we found the one that worked best for him - but he goes well with it and his rider is comfortable using it. I see no need to change it.

On the other hand I have another horse here that can be ridden bitless but he can be a bit resistant with it so he tends to go better in a snaffle or curb. 

Another horse I no longer have was trained to ride bridleless and was very responsive just off leg pressure. But you couldn't ride bridleless outside of a fenced area because he would take advantage. Same with a bitless on the trail - he would plow through just because he knew he could. And he really did not like the direct pressure of a snaffle. But put him in a curb? He rode as pretty as could be and rarely would you have to touch the reins - just leg pressure. And he accepted the bit so much better - sucked it right up where you were hard press to get a snaffle in his mouth.

Both of my current young horses will be started in a version of bitless and will be eventually trained in a snaffle. If we stay at a snaffle, go back to bit less or move up to the curb will depend on them and also what I want to accomplish at the time. 

I don't understand the bit hate nor the bitless hate. Both can inflict pain in the wrong hands and both can be wonderful tools in the right situation.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> im sorry if i upset you but ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing. i apologize for being harsh but im sure you know what you r doing (to some extent) but if you do some research you may be able to ride in just a halter! thats what i did! i apologize for my behavior. have a happy new year!


You are not upsetting me but I will be honest, I do tire of the extreme bitless/bridleless folks assuming that those of us who use bits get lumped into- we are cruel and need a torture device to control our horses because we don't know how to train. In reality that is not the case at all, I find it to be the opposite more often than not. I have seen some dandy wrecks from those who think they are doing their horses a service by riding them in a halter, didn't do the training, and got themselves, their horses and bystanders hurt.

I start all my colts in a halter and all my horses can be ridden in one if need be. They can be ridden bridleless as well. I do not see it to be some magical feat of training. It is just good training and having broke horses that work off first your seat then leg. I ride my horses in bits for refinement of cues, you _can not_ get that level of refinement from a halter. Halters are meant for leading _not_ riding. If you want to piddle around the pasture in a halter, go for it, nothing wrong with that but I am not satisfied with just doing that and it bores my horses.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> im sorry if i upset you but ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing. i apologize for being harsh but im sure you know what you r doing (to some extent) but if you do some research you may be able to ride in just a halter! thats what i did! i apologize for my behavior. have a happy new year!


I think you need to do more research or get more experience before you make that kind of judgment. I use the old vaquero way of making a bridle horse snaffle to bosal to two rein to bridle. But I've come to some horses that will not tolerate a bosal, therefore I must make the transition snaffle to long shank to two rein to bridle. It isn't that the horse didn't respond to the bosal, it's just that the horse didn't like it. Some horses are just more comfortable carrying a bit, and some horses see that when the bit is in their mouth that it must be time to work. It is 100% impossible to say that "every horse" can be ridden bridle less. Every horse is different. It's like saying every human can be singer. We all have the capability, but there are only a few that do.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> im sorry if i upset you but ever horse can be ridden bittless if YOU know what you r doing. i apologize for being harsh but im sure you know what you r doing (to some extent) but if you do some research you may be able to ride in just a halter! thats what i did! i apologize for my behavior. have a happy new year!


Who are you responding to in this post?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> Who are you responding to in this post?


 
Well I think just like the horses she is refering to she is lumping us all into the same group.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

nrhareiner


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

im not lumping everyone into the same group... im saying that every horse can be ridden bittless if you know what your doing.. the horse already knows how. its you that has to learn.,


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> im not lumping everyone into the same group... im saying that every horse can be ridden bittless if you know what your doing.. the horse already knows how. its you that has to learn.,


Wth? I gotta start breeding some of these horses who already know how.....


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Well I think just like the horses she is refering to she is lumping us all into the same group.


Oh ok....because I was like....the majority of us people on this thread that have been in the horse biz for decades (51 years for me), it is no big deal to ride in a halter...LOL. Riding in a halter is a piece of cake. Riding a horsemanship pattern brideless is impressive, working a Dressage test bridleless is impressive, running a reining pattern bridleless is impressive, bridleless WP is impressive. And you GET this advanced on a seasoned horse that was trained in a bit. Riding in a halter is not terribly impressive.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is my point. Bitless and bridleless is the end result of good training. I have said that many times. However starting out in a halter or bitless or bridleless on a horse who has never been trained is not a good idea. You loose the ability to make the horse light and responsive like you will get in a bit. Riding a finished horse bridleless is not hard at all. I do it around here all the time. It is simply the end result of a good finished well trained horse. Nothing more or less.

If all you are talking about is ploding around on a horse bitless that is not a well trained horse. That is nothing but an accident waiting to happen.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

ok.. i dont know about showing or anything about a seasoned horse or whatever, but i do know that not everyone knows how to ride bridle less


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Muppetgirl said:


> Wth? I gotta start breeding some of these horses who already know how.....


 
Me to. I have bred some really good horses who knew how to do a manuver but you still had to train the cues and make them light and responsive. That comes from good training and a light hand with a bit. To refine the cue. You can not do it with a bitless bridle or bridleless.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ok.. i dont know about showing or anything about a seasoned horse or whatever, but i do know that not everyone knows how to ride bridle less


You are missing the point....the horse needs to be TRAINED to ride bridleless. It has nothing to do with the person, but everything to do with how well trained the horse is to seat, leg and yes...hand. Because at the end of it all, the horse will respond to your leg and seat....because with bridleless...there is no hand.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ok.. i dont know about showing or anything about a seasoned horse or whatever, but i do know that not everyone knows how to ride bridle less


It is not about knowing how to do it. It is about knowing how to train a horse who can be ridden that way. Bridleless is nothing more then the end results of a well trained finished horse. I am not talking about just going along for the ride either. I am talking about taking a horse and running a reining pattern on them bridleless and so on like was anouther poster was talking about. I know a lot of people who get a catch ride on a horse back up to the barn with out a bridle or saddle. That is NOT riding bridleless. That is just grabing a ride.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

whatever. all i know is that every horse can be ridden bridleless with an educated rider


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Well I do not know where you get all your info but I have talked to Stacy about that and she will tell you that not every horse can be ridden bridleless and I think she has proven many times she knows what she is doing in that area. So I will take it from someone I know has proven they know what they are talking about over well YOU.

ALso come here. I will put you on a horse that can not be ridden bridleless. She is very very very very well trained and I can drop reins on this mare and get her do to all the maneuvers but the second I put on my hat and get ready to really ride. You better be ready to go show. She loves her job and is very good at it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

This is bridleless riding. Not every horse can be ridden like this. If they could everyone would be doing it. Stacy is not the best reining trainer out there but what she is very good at is picking and training horses that can do this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> whatever. all i know is that every horse can be ridden bridleless with an educated rider


How do you KNOW that? How many horses have you trained? What is your experience?

I'm not being mean by asking. There are folks here who know very little, those who know some, and eventually you get to folks who have spent a lifetime riding horses at a high level.

I'm one of those who know some. I started riding about 5 years ago. I've had a year or more of experience with 4 horses. It is completely reasonable for me to write about what I've seen work or fail with those horses, but there is a reason my avatar says to take my advice with a big cup of FWIW.

However, some of the others on this thread are folks who have ridden and competed and trained horses successfully for many years - more than you have been alive. If they tell you something you are saying is wrong, it would be very wise to listen to what they have to say. Particularly when you say something applies to ALL horses and ALL riders...you don't have the experience to make a statement like that.

BTW - I suspect Mia would throw someone who tried to ride her without reins. She is a nervous horse, and she constantly seeks reassurance from her rider via the reins. She WANTS the bit because it reassures her. That is only 1 of 4 horses, but it is enough to invalidate your comment.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

i did not mean with nothing on at all i ment with a hackamore or a halter


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

My horse can be ridden in a halter but not a bitless bridle. It just confuses her. I mainly bit her when we go out and about but if it's just a hack around the farm I get lazy and just the rope halter 

I don't think all horses can be ridden bitless. There are horses I know who I don't trust WITH a bit let alone without one.

IMO all horses are different and so are people. Some people are far to heavy handed with bits and some use them the way they were meant to be used. Personally I wouldn't be happy with a horse that needed anything stronger than a snaffle and would rather get it re-trained than pop a bit in that I didn't know how to use.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

How many horses have you started from the ground up completely bit less??


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> i did not mean with nothing on at all i ment with a hackamore or a halter


Sorry, Forgot to hit quote message lol. 
How many horses have you started from the ground-up completely bitless??


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Sorry, Forgot to hit quote message lol.
> How many horses have you started from the ground-up completely bitless??


I did with mine but that was only because she was a twasik about the bridle so the only way to ride her was with a halter :lol: Once her teeth got done and after a lot of patience we finally got her bited  Hasn't done her any harm and she's a nice quite horse but I would not want to ride any other green horse with out a bit :shock:

Personally I think all horses should be able to go in a bitted bridle. You just don't know who they'll end up with and the new owner may not ride bitless so I think it's selling the horse short if it doesn't know basic things expected of it (like excepting a bit)


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Sorry, forgot to add that my mare has just had a foal so will be bringing her back into work after a good year off. She will get the bitted bridle on her even though she goes in a halter, just to jog her memory  Then, if we have a lazy day, the rope halter will come out


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree, but I think bitting up is a crucial part of training and people should save all the halter bitless stuff until they have accepted training with a bit.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> whatever. all i know is that every horse can be ridden bridleless with an educated rider


I strongly disagree. At least if by 'ridden' you mean 'under control of the rider, cooperating, and ending in a scheduled dismount.' Good, responsive bridle-less horses are made, not born. Same as talented, light-handed riders- they're made and trained, not born.

I ride my guy in a snaffle. I also ride him in a web halter. He tends to be a fearful/anxious horse who gets stiff and stops listening when he starts to get scared or confused/worried about what I am asking him to do (or do something new) or things going on around us. When he's in the bit, he's much more relaxed and relaxes quicker if he does get stirred up. He relies on the bit because he KNOWS what I am wanting him to do and he knows he can comply. He doesn't understand signals as well in the web halter. I'm trying to train him to listen more to my seat and legs than my hands, but that is a process, not innate or instant. If I am successful, it won't matter what's on his face because he won't be relying as much on it to 'hear' my requests, but for now, he is happier and less stressed when bitted and that may or may not ever change. The main factors that will decide are a) my skills at training him and b) his own preferences.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> i did not mean with nothing on at all i ment with a hackamore or a halter


And what is the big deal in that? Will your horse perform correctly...as in being rounded, elevated in the front, engaged in the hind end, rated, perform a back (rein back), perform turns on the forehand and haunches etc? Are you using physical means to muscle your horse around to turn, back or whatever with JUST your hand? If you are then you are just going for a ride and playing around, without asking your horse to really do anything....pretty much like what Reiner was saying. And NO, not every horse can perform and DO these things I mentioned...which TRULY is riding, without a bit. The case of BSMS (did I get than name right? LOL) is a perfect example of a trained horse that relies on the communication a bit affords. That DOES NOT mean his horse is not well trained and he gets a performance from her....which means MUCH more than playing around with a halter or a hack.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thing that really ticks me off -
People who ride bitless and think they are all saintly and need to justify it by saying all people who ride with bits are the devils spawn
I love my horses, they have the best life I can give them so why would I want to do something to hurt them? Horses are pretty smart when it comes to anything pain related so if the bridle complete with bit was going to cause so much pain why do they not turn away from me when I walk towards them? My Irish Draft mare is now 17 and has been through several different owners, even kept as a working livery by one (used in the riding school to help pay her board) yet when I hold the bridle underneath her head she actually puts her head into it and opens her mouth for the bit to go in - now this is a horse that can be neurotic about some things and knows too well how to avoid something she doesnt like
All of my horses will ride bitless - though I prefer a leather side pull to a halter - but I know for a fact that in certain situations a bit is the better option for them - either for safety or for refinement.
I wonder if the 'bitless' only brigade only ever ride very placid horses that dont know the meaning of 'forward going? I mean I've ridden horses that stopped moving the minute you stopped kicking but they are not for me.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

ok..........


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Thing that really ticks me off -
> People who ride bitless and think they are all saintly and need to justify it by saying all people who ride with bits are the devils spawn
> I love my horses, they have the best life I can give them so why would I want to do something to hurt them? Horses are pretty smart when it comes to anything pain related so if the bridle complete with bit was going to cause so much pain why do they not turn away from me when I walk towards them? My Irish Draft mare is now 17 and has been through several different owners, even kept as a working livery by one (used in the riding school to help pay her board) yet when I hold the bridle underneath her head she actually puts her head into it and opens her mouth for the bit to go in - now this is a horse that can be neurotic about some things and knows too well how to avoid something she doesnt like
> All of my horses will ride bitless - though I prefer a leather side pull to a halter - but I know for a fact that in certain situations a bit is the better option for them - either for safety or for refinement.
> I wonder if the 'bitless' only brigade only ever ride very placid horses that dont know the meaning of 'forward going? I mean I've ridden horses that stopped moving the minute you stopped kicking but they are not for me.


 
LOL, my horse drops his head and opens his mouth to take the bit...I dont need to do anything. If he had hands, he'd tack himself up.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> ok..........


Seriously.....I have some questions. You came on here and made claims etc about bit vs bitless. So exactly what type of riding do you do with your horse??? I think I have an idea based on one of your first posts that said...putting in a bit and yanking the horse around. So that tells me, that is the way you ride...with all hand. So, set the record straight as I am genuinely curious. Give us some background on you and your horse and what you do. I'll do the same if you want.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Subbing...This is a interesting thread.

Another thing too is that people who ride bitless AUTOMATICALLY think that their horse is in zero pain and that they will never be in pain.










Those red lines are the nerves in a horse's face. You can't possibly tell me that just because you ride bitless means that your horse isn't in pain, etc. Heck I've seen rope halters completely tear up a horse's face. It was very bloody and gruesome. 

But hey, even bits can do that. 
But you have to remember rope halters, bitless bridles, can and will do damage to your horse when prompted. 

IMO there really isn't any difference between a bit and a bitless bridle when it comes to pain.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Socalgirl said:


> I think any horse can be safely controlled with a bosal, or well knotted rope hackamore. A regular rope halter would simply not do the same. Especially with a hot, or green horse. In my opinion they do not rub at all (unless you're hanging on the horses face). So yes horrible hands make bloody mouths and rub marks, but with a green rider I'd prefer them to hurt the horse less and use something they can't bully the horse they're riding with.
> 
> While I don't think bits are abuse, I do believe many people use them simply for the sake of showing. The ribbon winners, and such are so well trained they could easily be ridden without any tack but people use pain bits because... they want to compete. I just don't think this is just. but... it will always be that way sadly.
> 
> ps just agreeing to disagree here, not starting a debate. (need more posts to do more things here)


I couldn't agree with you more. IMO if someone is going to ride a horse(well mannered or not) and pull on its face with any type of equipment they need to go back to step one and work on body control and posture. TOO many times do I see riders use their reins for balance.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Seriously.....I have some questions. You came on here and made claims etc about bit vs bitless. So exactly what type of riding do you do with your horse??? I think I have an idea based on one of your first posts that said...putting in a bit and yanking the horse around. So that tells me, that is the way you ride...with all hand. So, set the record straight as I am genuinely curious. Give us some background on you and your horse and what you do. I'll do the same if you want.


ok i will give you a little background. i of course love horses (duh:}) and i dont show or compeat or any of that stuff, i just walk into the back yard and ride my horse wherever the pasture takes us. i don't take lessons, i just go to a trainer and ride around in the arena and get som pointers. i try to improve my seat,my hands,my legs, my everything every time i ride. i focus on having fun and learning and just riding. yeah i've used bits and yeah i was kinda quick to post that comment but now i relize i was wrong. if you would i would like to end this argument and give everyone my apology if you need it for waterer reason. Thank you and i hope you have a happy new year!


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

I couldn't have said it any better!!!


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

ACowgirlThing778 said:


> I couldn't have said it any better!!!


Was your horse trained bitless from the start? It appears here that you do not have the experience to judge us all and in that saying that we are cruel for using bits. just because your horse does it well doesn't mean every single horse will do it too.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

CowgirlThing, I'd really like to help you understand where we're coming from. You see, there are things that we do with our horses that require a lot of finesse and training, and others, not so much. You yourself said that you do nothing more than plod around the pasture. That's fine! Nothing wrong with that. But you have to understand that this type of riding takes very little training or finesse. That's why it works fine for both of you to use a bitless bridle, web halter, rope halter, baling twine, or whatever else suits your fancy. As long as you can stop, turn, and keep control, your bitless bridle does the job. 

However, there are others, like myself, that demand more of our horses. I have two major disciplines that I ride and compete in--eventing and reining. Both disciplines require a lot of skill and training, but I'll use reining as an example, as my reining mare is further along than my eventer. This horse requires a lot of finesse. There's more to a reining pattern than stop, turn, and speed up. A shift of my weight or a tickle with the spur will cue her to perform haunch/forehand turns, leg yields, spins, sliding stops, flying changes, counterbends, or changes in pace or gait. I rarely touch the reins. I could ride her in a bitless bridle, a spade, a halter, a hackamore, or completely bridleless. Why? Because her trainer spent years training and refining her to ride off the seat and legs.

However, this is a long process, and I sure as hell couldn't have ridden her bridleless or in a bitless bridle as a three-year-old and achieved the same level of finesse I could with a bit. The end result for a finished horse is a horse that is so finely tuned, he can ride without a bridle of any kind. Again, this is the result! The bit is the communication tool used to achieve that finesse.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

equiniphile said:


> CowgirlThing, I'd really like to help you understand where we're coming from. You see, there are things that we do with our horses that require a lot of finesse and training, and others, not so much. You yourself said that you do nothing more than plod around the pasture. That's fine! Nothing wrong with that. But you have to understand that this type of riding takes very little training or finesse. That's why it works fine for both of you to use a bitless bridle, web halter, rope halter, baling twine, or whatever else suits your fancy. As long as you can stop, turn, and keep control, your bitless bridle does the job.
> 
> However, there are others, like myself, that demand more of our horses. I have two major disciplines that I ride and compete in--eventing and reining. Both disciplines require a lot of skill and training, but I'll use reining as an example, as my reining mare is further along than my eventer. This horse requires a lot of finesse. There's more to a reining pattern than stop, turn, and speed up. A shift of my weight or a tickle with the spur will cue her to perform haunch/forehand turns, leg yields, spins, sliding stops, flying changes, counterbends, or changes in pace or gait. I rarely touch the reins. I could ride her in a bitless bridle, a spade, a halter, a hackamore, or completely bridleless. Why? Because her trainer spent years training and refining her to ride off the seat and legs.
> 
> However, this is a long process, and I sure as hell couldn't have ridden her bridleless or in a bitless bridle as a three-year-old and achieved the same level of finesse I could with a bit. The end result for a finished horse is a horse that is so finely tuned, he can ride without a bridle of any kind. Again, this is the result! The bit is the communication tool used to achieve that finesse.


Thank You. Your right, all I do is plod around as I please. That may be why nobody was on the same page. Thanks.. Happy New Year!!


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## ParaIndy (Sep 10, 2012)

I ride my Arab bitless and my grandpa rides all three of his horses the same way. I love riding my horse bit free and my Arab likes it also, but by no means would I EVER say that every horse should be ridden without a bit. I had a horse once that HATED the bosal, but was a good ride with a simple snaffle, the opposite of my Arab. Every horse is different, so treat them different.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Was your horse trained bitless from the start? It appears here that you do not have the experience to judge us all and in that saying that we are cruel for using bits. just because your horse does it well doesn't mean every single horse will do it too.


i wasn't sayin people who use bits were cruel... and once more i would like to end this argument. Happy New Year!!


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

I think a lot of the antagonisim in this thread comes from folks talking at cross purposes. When I talk of riding bridle-less in the foundation stage of training it is to get the horse thinking forwards. Not all horses need this, but I suspect all riders would benefit from riding a horse that can be ridden bridle-less.
I watched Josh, James Roberts apprentice, putting a first ride on a young horse destined to be an eventer. Very highly bred apparently. The horse was clearly thinking backwards and Josh was being too active with the reins. Eventually James called him over and took the halter off. Josh was now riding bridle-less on a first ride. This was not done as a trick or to show off, it was done with a purpose. James had figured that the halter was inhibiting forward thought in the horse and so removed it, with very good results.
This was using bridle-less for a purpose, to help put a good mental foundation on the horse on its' first ride. It was not to get the horse doing piaffe, barrel race or whatever, just to think forwards. As such it was a beautiful thing to watch. Of course the horse progressed back into a halter, and eventually a bit as the foundation progressed but at this stage in a safe enclosed environment the halter and bit were not appropriate.
Now given that Robert Whitaker had sent his last few colts to James to be started I suspect he had become known to produce light responsive horses. He was not an amateur horse starter, but one of the best. I respect the ideas and training he gave me before his sad demise in a car crash.
I am not advocating bridle-less as the sole training for performance riding of any sort, but just for putting a foundation on the horse. 
If you wish to then do bridle-less performance work with the horse such as Stacy or Mikey Wanzenreid then bridle-less will come after considerable training with a bridle of some sort at the end of the foundation.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Pegasus1 said:


> This was using bridle-less for a purpose, to help put a good mental foundation on the horse on its' first ride...at this stage in a safe enclosed environment the halter and bit were not appropriate.


I am trying to understand this reasoning, but must confess I am baffled. What is the purpose of a horse's first ride? To me it is to begin the very most basic beginnings of learning cues and responses. 

Perhaps you are only trying to get the horse used to a rider without worrying about his head. That's fine, except then the horse should be led so nothing bad happens. What if the horse chose to take off bucking? The rider could be hurt, but also the horse would not have had a positive first experience nor progressed forward with his learning. It is a big risk to take.

I could understand a first ride being in a halter, since a horse is already familiar with a halter and you are not seeking any kind of communication beyond kindergarten level. However, I prefer to use what I will be riding in because otherwise it just puts off teaching cues the horse needs to know. 

If the horse in the described scenario that was started bridleless did not go forward under saddle, what would be wrong with the ground person giving him a cue to move such as leading him forward or encouraging from behind? If the rider was using "too much rein," then wasn't that the rider's fault, not the bridle?

If this bridleless way of starting a horse is not to show off, then why would the risk be taken at all? There is really no way to know exactly how a horse will react on a first ride. I have seen the gamut (on well prepared horses) from being very calm and practically bored with it all to exploding in extreme and sudden fear. With a bridle or at least a halter the rider has a chance to get the horse's head up, turn the horse and often prevent a bad experience from happening at all.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

After the trainer concluded Mia had never been broken to ride, and that I had been riding Mia based on her inherent good nature, she began training Mia from the very beginning. Mia was obviously used to a saddle, but she needed to learn bit cues and leg cues. This is the set-up used to teach her bit cues BEFORE getting on her back:










That certainly isn't the only way of teaching a horse, but it is a pretty safe way to make sure they know what the various bit cues mean and are comfortable with them. Leg cues were taught walking beside her and using the stirrup as a substitute heel. This set-up was used to teach Mia up to the canter. The trainer wanted Mia to be able to turn and stop at a canter, and to know how to move her hip and disengage prior to mounting.

It wasn't the same procedure she had used in teaching our mare Lilly a few years earlier. When I asked her about it, the trainer said she had already broken all the bones she wanted to break in her life, and that it ensured the horse knew how to communicate with her rider BEFORE she was ridden.

Tomorrow will be the one year anniversary of when the trainer got on Mia's back. 4 Jan will be one year of my riding her again. And while she still gets scared at times, we now share a common language that allows me to reassure her. That is the purpose of a bit - to communicate, not to punish.

My limited experience of 4 horses has been on horses who like to go fast. Fast = Fun, to them. That means I have no basis for saying how one should get a horse to go forward, since I've never had ANY problem with that! But I'll admit, it seems like it would be pretty easy to teach a horse to go forward from the ground, rather than starting the first ride with no halter. Particularly if the problem was the rider's hands...


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

BSMS - I couldn't help but crack up when I read that you'd been riding an unbroken horse that you thought was broke!! Lol that would've and could've got a little hairy pretty fast! Lol!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Pegasus1 said:


> I think a lot of the antagonisim in this thread comes from folks talking at cross purposes. When I talk of riding bridle-less in the foundation stage of training it is to get the horse thinking forwards. Not all horses need this, but I suspect all riders would benefit from riding a horse that can be ridden bridle-less.
> I watched Josh, James Roberts apprentice, putting a first ride on a young horse destined to be an eventer. Very highly bred apparently. The horse was clearly thinking backwards and Josh was being too active with the reins. Eventually James called him over and took the halter off. Josh was now riding bridle-less on a first ride. This was not done as a trick or to show off, it was done with a purpose. James had figured that the halter was inhibiting forward thought in the horse and so removed it, with very good results.
> This was using bridle-less for a purpose, to help put a good mental foundation on the horse on its' first ride. It was not to get the horse doing piaffe, barrel race or whatever, just to think forwards. As such it was a beautiful thing to watch. Of course the horse progressed back into a halter, and eventually a bit as the foundation progressed but at this stage in a safe enclosed environment the halter and bit were not appropriate.
> Now given that Robert Whitaker had sent his last few colts to James to be started I suspect he had become known to produce light responsive horses. He was not an amateur horse starter, but one of the best. I respect the ideas and training he gave me before his sad demise in a car crash.
> ...


To me that is a lack of good ground work. If the horse is not moving forward under staddle removing a halter and riding a very green horse bridleless is not a good idea. Might have worked for this situation but not something that should be done. Just get your rear off the horse and teach the horse a forward cue from the ground and you will not have that problem. 

Bridleless is not a form or training. It is again the end results of good training. If you have to take a bridle or halter off a horse to get them to move forward I think you need to figure out why and not just remove something.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Muppetgirl said:


> BSMS - I couldn't help but crack up when I read that you'd been riding an unbroken horse that you thought was broke!! Lol that would've and could've got a little hairy pretty fast! Lol!


 
Happens more then you would think. 

My first horse Te a stallion when I got him was no where near broke. Had 30 days as a 2yo and I got him at 5. I just started ridding him. He was great but knew nothing. I really did not start training him to do much of anything until I moved back up here and started doing other things but trail riding and such. This is what you get when you have a very good natured horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

That was what puzzled the trainer. She knew what a pee-poor rider I was and that I had ridden Mia a lot in an arena. So how could Mia be unbroke?

At the end of 4 training sessions, she warned me Mia might never be safe to ride outside an arena. It was on the 5th session that she concluded no broke horse could be so totally ignorant of yielding to pressure. We compared notes on what I had been told and how the previous owner said Mia had been used (or not), and the trainer concluded that, at best, Mia had perhaps 30 days of training when young (she was 7 when I bought her). The previous owner had said that Mia had largely been unridden for a few years, but I was too new to horses for any warning flag to go up! I was so new that no flag went up when they only let me ride her in a 30' round pen...

On the positive side, it meant Mia had a very sweet, willing nature. And she does. There isn't a mean bone in her body. We still have problems at times. She has fears of things, and she gets very excited at times, but she is a very willing, fundamentally gentle horse. 

Since buying a horse, I think I've learned everything by doing it wrong the first time. Sometimes the second, third and fourth time too! The only thing that has saved me has been owning horses who are genuinely gentle, forgiving creatures.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^^ and these are the exact sort of horses that the people who think they are somehow wonderful at horse breaking get hold of and make it all look & seem easy.
Our foals were all handled so well from birth they accepted everything we threw at them including a rider
Its when they get the sort that have attitude that the crash happens and reality checks in!!!!


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

It's a shame that many folks on this forum cannot accept that maybe there are other ways of doing things. Ah well, that's life I suppose.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There are always other ways of doing things. Does not make them correct of safe of the best way. 

The fact is taking a bridle or halter off a green horse is a dangorues thing. Again this forum has a lot of people who do not know any better and will think if they have a horse that will not move on their first few rides hay lets take off the head gear and that will fix it. The fact is that it will not. You have not fixed the over riding problem. The horse has no cue to move forward. All you are doing is going along for a ride. Get your rear off the horse and teach them a cue to go forward or get somone to lead the horse until the horse under stands what you are asking.

I have had horses who would not move once you got on the first time. I prefer that. I let them sit for a few min. get off and go back to a bit of ground work. Before long they under stand that going is good as is standing.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Pegasus1 said:


> It's a shame that many folks on this forum cannot accept that maybe there are other ways of doing things. Ah well, that's life I suppose.


It kinda is. I have actually heard of people riding bridleless their first ride. However when there are symptoms there are causes. Of course, the horse was green so the horse was obviously going to something. But it was kinda odd that the horse wasn't going forward with the halter on. I for one would have have something differently, but still whatever floats your boat.

Some people start a horse in a bit an others bosals an others rope halters. From what I know my horse was started with 7 rides on a rope halter and when I got her I used a bosal for a while (40ish days I think?...can't remember). Now she is 3 and in a bit. I still ride sometimes in a rope halter, heck I rode her bridleless the other day.

Anyways I can see where your getting at.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

To me it's not that I am closed-minded to different ways of training horses. My concern is that people who are inexperienced with horses will get the idea that starting a horse bridleless or always riding in a rope halter is the most natural and least stressful way for the horse and not realize they may be putting their life or their horse's life in danger.

For every horse that has been exposed to many things in life and/or has a curious and open nature, there is another horse that has limited experience along with a more reactive nature. There are many horses that freeze up on a first ride that would respond well to having their head gear taken off and would simply walk loose around an arena. There are also many horses that would respond to having their head gear taken off on a first ride by spinning and taking off in a panic. These horses might run into a wall or fence and seriously injure themselves.

My bias comes also from meeting a woman who believed a horse should never wear a bit, and who had nearly been killed on three separate occasions when her horse spooked in a rope halter and bolted. When she discovered that her horse could not hear the whisper of the halter when the environment was like a jet runway (great analogy BSMS), her perfect control was lost. 

Yet she could not bring herself to move beyond those deeply held beliefs about harming her horse with a bit, so had a brain bleed the first time (mild enough to not harm her brain), a punctured lung the second, and a ruptured spleen and pelvic fracture the third time. Her solution was that no one should ride the horse. To me this is illogical and ridiculous. Many horses can be ridden safely in a rope halter and many cannot, despite any number of years of correct training. It comes down to temperament in the end, not training.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> It kinda is.* I have actually heard of people riding bridleless their first ride.* However when there are symptoms there are causes. Of course, the horse was green so the horse was obviously going to something. But it was kinda odd that the horse wasn't going forward with the halter on. I for one would have have something differently, but still whatever floats your boat.
> 
> Some people start a horse in a bit an others bosals an others rope halters. From what I know my horse was started with 7 rides on a rope halter and when I got her I used a bosal for a while (40ish days I think?...can't remember). Now she is 3 and in a bit. I still ride sometimes in a rope halter, heck I rode her bridleless the other day.
> 
> Anyways I can see where your getting at.


Not sure why anyone would want to purposely ride bridleless their first ride and I wouldn't recommend it, but to each their own.

I can see what Pegasus was getting at or at least what the clinician was trying to instill into his apprentice. _Leave those colts heads alone their first ride.

_When I say I start my colts in a halter, it is literally the first couple of rides when all I am doing is being a monkey on their back. I don't fuss with their face, all that halter is there for is to keep from a wreck happening. Then after a ride or two they move to a snaffle. 

Back in the day when my hubby was working at a feedlot. The boss would turn about 10 colts out in a big pen, each pen rider would pick a colt, halter it(if it was halter broke) manage to get it saddled and everyone climbed on. The boss would flag them around the pen horseback(they called it "Ray Hunt-ing"..haha) They were not allowed to mess with the halter. Boss would yell "sit down" and he would turn all them colts back on the fence. Of course you change directions that fast on a colt like that and they usually go to bucking...LOL. But it wasn't long and they were paying attention to the body language rather than waiting to get swatted with a flag. Made it pretty easy once you started using a snaffle. You started the basis for seat, leg then hand. 
Doesn't make any difference what head gear you use really, I just do very little ground work so what they are used to is a halter. If I start them in a snaffle I do a little ground work with the snaffle. Just as long as have a basic understanding so I can keep things some what controlled if need be. That's why I think going without a snaffle/halter whatever could be a wreck.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Hi all,just finished reading through these posts.I ride bitless and bareback.Rope halter for my Belgian quarter and side pull for my Newfie Pony.I love it!.However,I am not a trainer.Don't do shows .Pleasure / backyard horses whom are pets.My only requirement is for the horse to go forward ,turn, back and stop.I have done tackless with both of mine as well.One thing I am very sure of is that any good riding is a result of good training.From the ground up.Whether you are using a bit or not. As for the bickering and disrespect that I see far to often on this forum,I will say there are ways to disagree and debate without the rudeness and sarcasm.Hope everyone is well in the new year.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

One more thing,I also treat train my horse.This is something that is frowned on by many but I have found it to be a wonderful tool and motivator when done correctly. The bitless debate has been on the go for quite some time.I would like to ask an honest question about bits vs bitless. [for the record I am only against harsh bits.I use to ride in a snaffle].My question is more directed at pleasure/trail .If you are out riding and a horse spooks or bolts, will a bit really stop it any better than a bitless of equal training? Please people,dont take this question to have any hidden agenda's.It is an honest question from a non trainer backyard horseperson.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Newfie said:


> ...If you are out riding and a horse spooks or bolts, will a bit really stop it any better than a bitless of equal training? Please people,dont take this question to have any hidden agenda's...


I've only used a few varieties of sidepull halters. Nothing with a cross-under design or a bosal.

For Mia, the answer is definitely yes, a bit does better.

1 - It does a better job of preventing a bolt. When Mia gets jumpy, I can play with the reins and usually calm her down, at least down to "no bolt" territory. It usually works well to put a pinkie of pressure on each rein as that shoulder is moving forward - light pinkie. That results in her moving her front feet a little less forward and reconnects her with me. If it is more touch & go, a tug on the rein farthest from whatever has her concerned tells her to forget about it and let ME worry about it. A sidepull doesn't allow either of those techniques to work with her.

2 - If she is galloping and doesn't want to stop, then a bit gives me more leverage on her nose than a sidepull does. She sticks her nose out and has her head almost parallel to the ground, and a sidepull will pull up on her face farther than the corners of her mouth, so it simply has less mechanical leverage to bend her neck and get her to yield and slow. A snaffle bit also has some problems, since it slides back against her clenched teeth when her head is like that. I've ordered a Kimberwick (spelling?) to see if a mild curb will help her to lower her nose. With Mia in a full-bore gallop, lowering her nose is the key to slowing her.

Trooper has never bolted or refused to slow from a canter or gallop, but he acts more confident with a bit. But since he hasn't ever bolted, I simply don't know. Lilly never bolted on me either.

I haven't tried bitless with Cowboy. He is usually ridden by my 100 lb daughter-in-law, and I don't think she has the upper body strength to force the issue with him bitless. He only bolts in an arena, and responds well to a one-rein stop. He's a BLM mustang pony, and he believes in being careful on the trail.

Very old photo, from shortly after I started riding, but it shows the bitless halter I used with Mia. Still use it as her daily halter. I think you can see how this design allow zero leverage on the nose once she stretches out in a run:










Same design on Trooper. This was on my first-ever attempt at cantering. It says a lot about their differences that I felt more comfortable, for my first ever canter, to ride Trooper in a sidepull halter. But again, it shows how little mechanical advantage THIS design gives. Notice where the reins actually connect next to his head. And no riding critique, please, since this was a couple of minutes into my first attempt at a canter. It was also Trooper's first canter in over a year:


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## Pegasus1 (Nov 16, 2012)

I hope folks reading ideas on this forum are intelligent enough to decide if an idea or technique is within their personal ability and experience level. The fact that I related a method James uses does not mean I advocate that folks without his experience should do the same thing, but I mention it to open their eyes to what is possible. Without knowing what can be done then you have no idea as to what level to strive towards. Personally I am not at that level, or anywhere near it, but seeing these advanced ideas has opened my eyes to what I should be striving for. I am just very sad James is no longer around to help me develop as a horseman. 

As to James experience, I think his cv was impecable on the subject of young horse starts and restarts. Just before he died he wrote the following article on his influences James My Influences . He also took part, by invitation, in the horse start shows in Reno and Fort Worth last year Wild Horse Taming .


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Newfie said:


> One more thing,I also treat train my horse.This is something that is frowned on by many but I have found it to be a wonderful tool and motivator when done correctly. The bitless debate has been on the go for quite some time.I would like to ask an honest question about bits vs bitless. [for the record I am only against harsh bits.I use to ride in a snaffle].My question is more directed at pleasure/trail .If you are out riding and a horse spooks or bolts, will a bit really stop it any better than a bitless of equal training? Please people,dont take this question to have any hidden agenda's.It is an honest question from a non trainer backyard horseperson.


 Hi Newfie
The answer to your question is absolutely YES - a bit does make a huge difference because it can prevent that spook from even turning into a bolt provided the action of the bit is in the right place - on the bars. If the horse has learnt to avoid the bit by putting its nose upwards then you have to go back to the drawing board.
I have seen horses allegedly 'bolting' that in fact arent bolting at all to start with - its just that the rider doesnt know how to use their hands, seat and body strength to stop them, this could be just a strength thing as a riders own bodyweight & muscle strength does make a difference but often the rider just freezes and pretty much does nothing to deal with the situation. In a situation like this am I going to worry about giving the horse some pain - no I'm not because the one outweighs the other in terms of safety and preventing it becoming a 'learned' experience for the horse that it can run off if it wants too
There are also riders who set a horse off into a canter without enough contact on the bit to tell the horse its under control
The only exception to the bit having more power over bitless is using something like a german hackamore (I know nothing about US mechanical hackamores) but an OTTB we had had zero brakes in any bit but was wonderful in a german hackamore


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Bdsm..This one is for you.The argument from people about going bit less is that they feel that a well trained horse would respond to a halter/sidepull/rope halter ect as well as a bit ,and if they dont respond it is because they don't have adequate training.For me who is learning as I go,something tells me that this should be the case.ie that it basically depends on the training. BUT I don't believe bits to be the instruments of torture that some would have us believe [only of coarse in harsh hands.} The people who are die-hard bitless riders will say that one shouldn't have to yank or pull on a horses mouth to get it to respond.They feel that a good horseperson will have a responsive horse without the bit and wouldn't need a bit to even get the "finesse" that people talk about on this thread.What is your answer to this? [again,I am asking honestly and not in any way arguing.These are some things I have been told over the past few years.}.This seems to be a big debate on a few forums.Thanks for your response by the way.

Jaydee..thanks for your response.I have not been around horses as long as many of you have and also have really only dealt with my 2 boys.There seems to be a part of me that just do not "get" the bit thing.I do understand what you guys are saying but I always feel that what ever a horse can be trained to do in a bit,he can be trained to do without it.But as I have said many times ,I am a pleasure ,backyard horse person.I dont do any type of shows and the only requirements for my boys are basic maneuvers.So because of that I may never quite "get" it about the bits though I do hear what you are both saying.Thanks.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that just b/c a horse does not respond or like a side pull or halter or what have you as a way of riding does not mean they are not well trained. I have some of the best trained horses you will find can ride them bridleless. The fact that I do not or do not and will not ride bitless has nothing to do with training. It is not something that I feel the need to do. It accomplishes nothing. I have found that those who do so out side of the show ring are doing so to try and say see what I can do or look how nice I am being to my horse. The fact is that there is no difference. You are not being any nicer to your horse then I am and your ability is not better then mine. It is like those who own stallions b/c they think it is cool and so on.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Just read through all of this and thought I would add my opinion and experience with Jake.

Jake has always been a special case, he came to me with barely the basic commands at the age of 14. He had been rode most of his life could stop after a good 10-30 steps after giving the whoa cue, he direct reined only and leaked sideways, he had some recognition of leg cues but not much. And he was hot hot hot. I rode him around in a halter sure but it was always in a fenced pasture where he was familiar and never too far from home. He was horribly barn sour, gate sour and overall temperamental. He gets frustrated very easy and he was only taught to run on trails. So when I go out on trails he gets frustrated very fast, and gets dangerous very fast.

I have worked with multiple trainers, tons of different people and what not. Half told me to not ride him that he was always stuck being as he was, unfinished and untrainable. Some told me to shoot him, others claimed they could help but I never saw any results. Natural horsemanship with him was a joke, I used every trick in the book from multiple different NH trainers to try and get him to not be barn sour. All the happened was I had an exhausted, over-heated horse that was still walking on his back legs. 

I can tell you there have been hundreds of instances that a bit was my savings grace. It didn't mean I yanked on his mouth, it means that I was able to get his attention and make him respond to a leg cue to bend. A slight twist of my finger meant that he would bend around and stay away from the drop off next to a trail. He has no self awareness, we figured this out the hard way, with a few accidents, that he will not take care of himself when walking around. He needs his rider to guide his feet. In order to do that I absolutely need fine tuning skills of a bit. A halter or doesn't matter which type of side pull or bitless what ever would ever be able to get his attention when he starts to loose it mentally. No amount of training has been able to demand his attention when he gets frustrated. Most of the time I can ride him around on a loose rein, heck I can and do ride him bridleless. That is in an arena or I am in a familiar place doing strict calming exercises. He turns on the haunches, the fore, backs up, turns all without the use of any type of head gear, no halter no bridle. Still does not mean he can always do that. Because of his personality. That is key. I've always owned another horse that would probably never need a bit and most the time I just had a rope halter on, I never bothered to loop it through the other side and rode everywhere like that. That was his personality. Jake is either never ride him outside an arena or ride him with a bit. One of two options...I choose the bit.

The photo is in a field where I had done several calming exercises, going in circles with a bridle first until he was confident in thinking that we were not going anywhere. Then I was able to ride him around without it. I Have to wait until he focuses.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> Keep in mind that just b/c a horse does not respond or like a side pull or halter or what have you as a way of riding does not mean they are not well trained. I have some of the best trained horses you will find can ride them bridleless. The fact that I do not or do not and will not ride bitless has nothing to do with training. It is not something that I feel the need to do. It accomplishes nothing. I have found that those who do so out side of the show ring are doing so to try and say see what I can do or look how nice I am being to my horse. The fact is that there is no difference. You are not being any nicer to your horse then I am and your ability is not better then mine. It is like those who own stallions b/c they think it is cool and so on.


I agree, I ride in only a rope halter on trails ect. Its not there show off or anything like that my mare is very well broke in both the bit and rope halter and responds the same to both. I prefer riding her in that over the bit, I dont really see the difference. If I were to show her then yes i would use a bit but I dont think riding bitless tackless ect is a way to show off its just a preference.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

nrhareiner, I ride bitless but certainly not because I have any sense of superiority about ..well anything.I do think bitless would be more comfortable though and that would be the only reason why I would choose it for my boys.So on that aspect I will politely disagree.However ,My frame of reference is very small and I can only go by my experience with my 2 horses.My big guy does not like the bit at all and neither does my pony.My pony response better to a sidepull and my horse to a rope halter.Again,these are not show horses ,nor would I want them to be.They are family pets ,who are well behave dispite not using a bit.I guess that is what counts.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Newfie said:


> ...The argument from people about going bit less is that they feel that a well trained horse would respond to a halter/sidepull/rope halter ect as well as a bit ,and if they dont respond it is because they don't have adequate training.For me who is learning as I go,something tells me that this should be the case....They feel that a good horseperson will have a responsive horse without the bit and wouldn't need a bit to even get the "finesse" that people talk about on this thread...


I'd go back to what I posted earlier. Horses are emotional creatures. Some more so than others. If the horse is not very reactive, then he USUALLY will remain calm enough and relaxed enough to listen to most any cue - seat, leg, rein, bit, halter - it doesn't matter a whole lot if the horse is focused on you.

1 - But some horses, and Mia is a good example, are far more emotional and intense. Mia bring more energy and intensity to a walk in the arena than Trooper brings to a gallop in the open. She is hyper-alert and her mind is constantly involved. That can make her fun to ride. If we go out in the desert solo, I'm NOT alone! There is a constant, stirring, restless, inquisitive 900 lbs of muscle underneath me.

But it can be exhausting as well, because she IS always present. We don't normally go 50 feet without some interaction. She wants a constant give & take from her rider. And it pays to keep her engaged, because the alternative is for her mind to wander. And when her mind wanders, I need to get it back to me before she finds SOMETHING to distract her and stir up her inner fears.

After 14 months of training and very regular work, we're getting past most of her valid fears. But during all that time, I needed a bit to keep her engaged. I think I always will. It is, as I said, about COMMUNICATION, not PAIN. If I want Mia obedient, then I need to keep her mind occupied with ME. Not the wind. Not a bush. Not a piece of paper. Not a pink rhinoceros, or whatever else her mind can conjure up. Me. And the bit and reins are an easy way of keeping that constant feedback going between us. A rope halter just doesn't allow the communication she craves.

2 - Also, she canters fine in an arena, with or without another horse. She seems pretty good about cantering by herself in the desert. But put another horse in the picture, with a trail going out in front of her, and she gets competitive. She starts to focus on beating the other horse, preferably by a big margin. And if I tell her to stay behind the other horse, she gets ****ed!

There may be some safe training technique that I don't know about to train that away from her. But she doesn't show it in the arena, because the arena confines her and she knows it. And she doesn't do it alone, so the only time to see it is on a desert trail - with rocks, gullies, bends, etc - and with another horse. She needs to yield to my mind, not her desires, to stay safe. If I owned a racetrack, I'd love to take her out and let her run against other horses. I'd bet she'd be a blast! But it isn't safe where I live.

When you are fighting an excited, competitive horse, you need leverage. I have to yank hard with my hands down past my knees, and even then it is a struggle. I can stop her dead with a pulley stop in that situation, but that is a rough solution too!

But bitless? Forget it! And if that is a training issue, well, where am I going to safely train it out of her? And can I? I suspect there is a reason why some sport horses are used with harsher bits. When their competitive spirit kicks in, they will run harder and faster than they ever would from a whip - but that means they are also more likely to ignore any signal you send thru a bit, let alone a mere halter.

There are some other solutions I'm trying. We've started back doing arena work, and stopping from a canter while using a simple snaffle. Full stops, to a back up. I'm working on her jigging along the trail too. Yes, she is a work in progress, and I'll use any reasonable suggestion or tool I've got.

But here is what will never change: she is a lot of horse, and I'm not a lot of rider. But I'm all she has. No one with a lot of experience wants a hot-headed mare who wants to race other horses in the desert. They know better than to buy her! And she wouldn't be safe with anyone less experienced, nor could I count on them to care for her. The trainer who worked with Mia said Mia was lucky to meet me, because she had known a lot of folks who would have dumped her at an auction by now.

I'm lucky too, because Mia has taught me an incredible amount about horses. She fascinates me. She got me hooked on riding, because she is such an overwhelming presence to ride. She doesn't have a mean bone in her, but she doesn't have any "ATV bones" in her either! But no, she is not safe to ride in a halter, although I've done so many times. I just got tired of trusting to luck to keep me alive...

I'm sure there are folks on HF who could do wonders with Mia. But I'm all that Mia has. I use an Aussie-style saddle because it improves my odds of survival. I use a bit with Mia for the same reason. And I ride because I just darn well enjoy her company!


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Horsesdontlie...that makes complete sense to me! Nice story .Wow! I can certainly see how a bit would get a horses attention quicker, particularly with difficult horses.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Bdsm..I think I am beginning to "get" the bit issue.That is also quite a tale.I seemed to have had a mental block.Probably because I have too very easy going horses.Not difficult at all.When you and horsesdontlie described the more difficult horses I began to make the connection.You see, my only frame of reference is my 2 geldings.I have not handled any "fiery" steeds.So with that said ,I can see where a bit would be preferencial.Thank you.I also got the feeling that if it were possible to rise Mia without the bit,you would in fact prefer to do that.However,because of her personality,you eed the bit to get her attention!.Love the pictures you posted on the previous post!


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Newfie said:


> Horsesdontlie...that makes complete sense to me! Nice story .Wow! I can certainly see how a bit would get a horses attention quicker, particularly with difficult horses.


Thank you, we have had one crazy story together. I am very glad I went through with it in the end. I can tell you, our first canter tackless was an amazing experience as most of the time keeping him calm at a canter with direct bit contact is hard enough as is. But its all so situational. The bit even with the slightest movements gets his attention, can keep him from rearing up, running into another horse or person on the ground, or stepping off the ledge into ravine. A halter he responds to 70% of the time, but he is so much of an tune out when the slightest thing is off that he is able to brace against the halter very very easy. He just locks his neck. Its more of the idea of mechanics. But this makes Jake sound worse than he is to some extent, most of the time he is just rushed, he hasn't reared in a long time or even thought about it. We haven't had much of any problems past prancing for a long time. So this is more of a reference when we were working past his bad times. I just like the bit for the just in case, who knows what would send him over the edge again? I have no delusions in believing that once they change they never go back. Some random thing could happen, who knows? I would like to be prepared. 

I was told this once to explain the difference between a halter and a bit. When you pull back on the side of a halter or sidepull it pulls backwards more than to the side, because honestly you're dealing with the sides of the horses face. While the bit point of contact is much lower on the horses face, it makes it so much easier to turn side to side. Its like holding a rope in your hand across where your thumb meets your palm then pulling back. Then put the rope between your finger tips (thumb and index). Even a very slight pull would turn your hand sideways, while the other not as much. They still give the same cue without pain, but one is more effective.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Newfie said:


> Bdsm..I think I am beginning to "get" the bit issue.That is also quite a tale.I seemed to have had a mental block.Probably because I have too very easy going horses.Not difficult at all.When you and horsesdontlie described the more difficult horses I began to make the connection.You see, my only frame of reference is my 2 geldings.I have not handled any "fiery" steeds.So with that said ,I can see where a bit would be preferencial.Thank you.I also got the feeling that if it were possible to rise Mia without the bit,you would in fact prefer to do that.However,because of her personality,you eed the bit to get her attention!.Love the pictures you posted on the previous post!


Its hard to understand sometimes past your own experience. Just one thing I've learned is that horses are just as unique as we are. One thing may work perfect for another horse, may set another horse off the deep end. The main thing we as owners/riders need to learn is to be flexible. Also to understand that you do not know other horses and riders and what they have gone through.

That is great that you can ride your two bitless. The more comfortable for them, and it works, why change it? What works is what works. 

Not only is it for firey steeds though. They are refining tools, the same amount of attention grabbing and fine tuning that I described with Jake is needed for showing and asking for exact cues. We want to make it look effortless, a bit can give such subtle cues that it can make it look like the rider never even moves its hands. Look at the reining videos. Good reiners never even have contact that you can tell.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

I agree completely.I would not take the chance with him bitless either.If he behved that way before,something could trigger that behavior again.That makes complete sense.I think with me,my frame is reference is very small and so I had a vision of all horses being similar to mine.I know how dumb this may soound but I guess I never gave it much thought.Love the picture of you and Jake by the way.He is lucky to have you.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Well,all I can add to this is that everyday is a learning experience.I began this horse journey at 39 yrs of age.That was 7 yrs ago.I had zero horse experience before that time.There is not a day that goes by where I dont learn something new.Horses are definitely unique beings! I will continue to work with my boys bitless because they are easy going and I dont need any refinement or finesse of show horses.As long as people keep the horse safe and comfortable while looking after personal safety,whether bitted or bitless...its all good!! Thank you for your polite respectable responses.I think we all,at times need to keep an open mind about...well everything!


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Newfie said:


> I agree completely.I would not take the chance with him bitless either.If he behved that way before,something could trigger that behavior again.That makes complete sense.I think with me,my frame is reference is very small and so I had a vision of all horses being similar to mine.I know how dumb this may soound but I guess I never gave it much thought.Love the picture of you and Jake by the way.He is lucky to have you.


You are growing then, just that realization alone makes you a better horseman. I'm sure all of us have to go through that at some point so don't feel stupid. I had little help working with Jake, so I probably tried every wrong way before I found the right one. I spent years and years trying to train him like everyone else trained their horses. I have come to realize I made him so much worse for a while. I've even been told by a horse behaviorist that doesn't really act like a horse either which makes him that much harder to train. (He isn't afraid of anything, has no inclination for self preservation, he doesn't conserve energy...ever, and doesn't have a mean bone in his body) Nothing added up to make sense to her. 

It took me probably 5 years after getting him to realize that he wasn't like the school horses I was used to riding, he wasn't like my friends calm natured horse. Even then after that it took years of trial and error before I started to really figure him out. Then sadly after everything started to click he developed ringbone and I had to retire him. I always wish I had learned what I know now earlier. He could have been amazing, but I was too closed minded.

Thank you! =) It is one of my favorites because it is something that no one ever thought we would be able to do. A possibly small accomplishment for some, was an amazing milestone for us.


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## Newfie (Aug 5, 2012)

Horsesdontlie ,I undestand what you mean.It is not a small accomplishment at all.I know for certain that me riding horses at all is a large accomplishment.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I am neither here nor there in pro or con whatever when it comes to bitted, bitless, or bridleless horses. 

I consider myself one of those backyard riders who simply enjoy riding for what it is with a couple of competitions at a local renaissance festival. And I can certainly say while it is rewarding to be able to do those things, I definitely get burnt out on the need to practice, and just want a nice, relaxing ride. 

This is where I go bitless. There are only two horses I ride who I can even dream about riding bitless. One is Brown, a mexican mustang with a nasty, grumbly personality who listens under saddle until he gets frustrated or bored and decides to argue. Ironically with him, I trust him 100% bitless because he is predictable, and I have ridden him enough times with a bit and saddle to go to the next level and go bitless and bareback. Because of his predictability and that I have worked with him a year and a half prior before attempting bitless, I felt confident that he would be a safe option, and I was correct. 

The other horse I ride bitless is Shooter, a menagerie of different breeds who I trust 75% of the time bareback AND bitless. He is a babysitter. A complete bombproof horse suitable for all riding levels. He "tests" riders often, however and at the higher gaits, tends to ignore leg pressure to do his own thing because he's simply been patterned to do it for over half of his life (he's twenty). So he's more of a challenge for me and only when I truly feel up to it and want to "work" on my skills rather than relaxingly ride. He also checks for any pressure by lowering his head. He also does this when bitted and has slack reign. Smart cookie on that front. But because he doesn't have a bit, he is constantly checking. 

The other horses I wouldn't dare. Dill needs a chin strap otherwise its bye bye brakes. Chance is too highstrung and spooky for me and I have hard enough time simply trying to keep him walking when he so terribly much loves to run. Until more work is put into him, there are a lot of things I don't trust him with.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I just wish to add:
I am aware and have seen first hand the damage rope halters can do simply by using them for training or leading purposes. Tana, an arab broodmare got skinned on her nose from a lunging session because I kept having to bump her nose in because she was leaning on the line and not paying attention. 

I have also ridden in a halter, and a rope halter. Neither offer me the same "messages" as my aeron mack riding halter. I feel my messges are disgruntled by the fiador knot of a rope halter, and on nylon, I simply do not have the fixed messages that the knots a rope halter have. On both, the pressure was applied broadly on the nose, I felt, and I have had no crisp signal. 

Again, I prefer riding in my riding halter, but doing so is rare as 90% of the time, the horses I ride are bitted for maximum signal sending and safety for myself. As much as I deteste riding bareback in a bit (don't ask me why, as there really is no real reason behind it) I will do so if safety demands of it.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

This is what I do EXACTLY!!


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't see how my statements are exactly as you do, seeing that a great majority of the time I am using bitted bridles. 

After reading your posts, I got the idea you preferred bitless?
I personally have no preference however as I stated, come fun time, I enjoy a nice ride in the arena doing whatever bitless and bareback because I can enjoy myself better. And those days aren't often.


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## ACowgirlThing778 (Dec 30, 2012)

Deschutes said:


> I don't see how my statements are exactly as you do, seeing that a great majority of the time I am using bitted bridles.
> 
> After reading your posts, I got the idea you preferred bitless?
> I personally have no preference however as I stated, come fun time, I enjoy a nice ride in the arena doing whatever bitless and bareback because I can enjoy myself better. And those days aren't often.


i was not responding to your post.. i forgot to and the quote..


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