# Conformation critique on APHA gelding and question on growth after the age of 2



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Your pics aren't great for a critique. See the 'sticky' in this section for what's needed. Can't give accurate opinion from these, so some at least of what I say may not apply, may be just the way he's standing or such. And of course, as an immature boy, there will be things that will change as he matures too.

I hope you're not riding him yet, as immature as he obviously still is. He is quite bum-high, and looks like he has a HUGE HQ compared to his forehand. Not sure how much that might be likely to balance out at his age. At nearly 3yo he may gain another inch or 2 but probably not much more. I'd wait to see if he grows any more & evens out over the next 6 months or so before beginning riding him. Then still keep to light riding for a fair while longer.

His HQ look a little strange to me. Very sloping & the second last pic at least, makes him look like he's got 'cheeks', like a person's bum! I'm familiar with foals/youngsters having more of a 'double rump', just that looks... way more than normal. Maybe due to over muscling from his forehand being under developed or such. Seems quite straight through the stifle, may be exaggerated by being so bum-high. He's a bit turned out in the frontcan't tell whether it's in the legs or just from tight shoulders. His fetlocks look longish & upright - can't tell from those pics whether his hooves are high heeled or such, which may contribute to that upright look. He appears a bit cow hocked, and in a couple of pics, sickle hocked & 'camped under' in front too. His legs look fine, for the size of his body.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

As @loosie said, we can't give an accurate critique from those photos. What I can see and like is that he has good bone which is important for longevity and his ears and expression in every picture shows he paying attention to the human and isn't stressed by whatever is going on at the time. That's good for one as young as he is as far as I'm concerned. 


loosie, I imagine the owners had beefed up that hind end since they were showing him in halter. Front end and hind end will even out better if that particular conditioning is stopped. However, jamee, the fact that they worked him hard enough to build that butt at such a young age would be enough of a red flag to have me getting x-rays of his lower legs and joints from a good lameness vet before purchasing.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

loosie:
Yes, I apologize for the pictures. I didn’t have any good ones on hand. I will try to get better ones tomorrow. 

He gets ridden lightly, once or twice a week. I do mostly groundwork with him. He was broke out as a 2 year old, which was his owners decision. I don’t necessarily agree with riding them that young either, but again, it’s not my horse. His owner pays me to work with him and asks me to ride him, so I do. I don’t do anything strenuous with him and I keep the rides short (only about 20 minutes). I didn’t intend for this post to be about whether he’s mature enough to ride or not, so I kindly ask for no comments on that part. 

As for his hind end, it’s funny that you say that about his “cheeks” because I thought the same thing lol. I’ve never seen anything like that except for on very young horses but he does still have a lot of filling out to do so maybe he’s just in an awkward stage.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

JCnGrace:
He was not “beefed up” whatsoever for showing. He has just grown like that. That show that we took him to was his very first show and it was simply to get him exposed to different things. It was all for fun.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Glad I was wrong on that. I hope you can get some good confo photos because I love paints and because I think he will have a pretty decent conformation from what I can tell in what you posted.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I see a couple of things, at least one of which can be because of poor angles in the photo. 

He's goose rumped, which means he's got a steep croup. You can minimize some of that appearance with work over trot poles and slightly raised cavaletti poles, as he gets older and fitter. His pasterns do look longish, so do his toes (farrier). Can't tell anything about his heels from those pics. His shoulder looks straight, which makes me guess he's got a rougher trot. 

I see what Loosie is talking about with the "butt cheeks". My Dutch friends calls that Kadetjes (small split bread).








It will go away or be minimized with regular work. I see it a lot in very young QHs or other stock types, and it usually goes away when you start working him to get him conditioned all over for riding. 

His front end looks wonky from the way he's standing, his front legs back under his shoulders (camped under) and toed out a little bit as well as his front legs spread. 

Over all I think he's cute as a button. Love how he's so relaxed and paying attention to his human, he's got a really soft, kind eye and looks very intelligent and sharp.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I see the goose rumped. But that's the only 'flaw' I can see via those photos.


Overall, he looks like a very nice, albeit immature, QH body type. I think he's going to mature in all the right ways. If he has this great attitude, then I agree that he is a KEEPER!!!


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

What would be your plans for him? He certainly is not a stranger to you so that is good. My guess is that he will mature 14.3-15 hands. Who knows by the time he is 5. He is terribly cute and from your description has a great disposition. The photos aren't great and I suspect he is better than they make him out to be.


IF I were looking for a youngster to bring along and enjoy for many years he would be a serious consideration. I trail ride now and a sound horse with a good mind means a lot.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

Dustbunny:
I plan to do a little bit of everything. I’ve never been one to just do one thing with my horses. The things I mainly do though are trail riding and showing for fun, nothing competitive. He is a great boy and he has a great personality.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

Thanks everyone for your opionions! I took some more pictures today. He’s a little fluffy and has a little belly, but it’s the best I could do in the middle of winter lol. He has the cutest little head on him. I tried to square him up the best I could. He is a little toe-out in the front.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

He looks perfectly like a gangly 2 year old should...
Not much matches and everything changes daily... :smile:

He's very cute and by the look of him I would agree what he looks like now is not going to be what he looks like come 5 years of age.

You've known him this long and his mind, work ethic and such...
If you think he has what you desire...go for it.
If you have any reservation he is what you want, then pass.
He is what he is...but personality is what you got and know is him.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

Such a hard stage to judge....most look like people do at 12-13 years of age, goofy, mismatching, and gangly. Like horselovingguy said, you know him, if you like his personality go for it.

I can tell you from buying my APHA at 9mo, he went thru some stages I had no clue what he'd end up looking like. I can tell you he matured nicely IMO, and doesnt look like he did when he was 2, or even 3 for that matter. Best of luck!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Off topic, but is your dog an English Shepherd?


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

egrogan said:


> Off topic, but is your dog an English Shepherd?


Nope! He’s a golden retriever, English setter mix


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm ok with everything but those splayed front legs. Since the "front half" of the horse carries 70% of the weight load (his and the rider) I would do no more riding on him until he either grows past this stage or gets better balance through good farrier work. But he's certainly cute enough to just throw out in the pasture for a year and see what he looks like later.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

That's better - he doesn't look so hugely rump high in those pics, looks a lot better balanced. See how much even slightly different angle pics give a different idea? I don't like his hind end much, but a lot that people take as 'conformation', thinking it unchangeable, is actually _postural_. He does appear sickle hocked, but I wonder, the 'goose rump'(didn't know it was called that - cute!) may be able to be corrected with some chiropractic work, and then his legs should change too. The appearance of a short back is because of pelvis angle too I think.

As said, at his immature age, lots can change with growth too.

Standing 'camped under' in front may possibly be just due to the imbalance of the hind end. But with his feet so overgrown & apparently high heeled, that will be effecting his posture. Feets need correcting asap so he can start developing them strongly(I also wouldn't be riding/working him with feet like that). So again, maybe just postural, not confo.

Hind-on pic shows that he isn't cowhocked, as I first thought(maybe his markings enhanced that idea too), is only slightly base narrow behind. Front-on shows the possible concern for me, that his turned out fronts _may_ be conformational slight limb deformation. It appears he's a little 'valgus' at the knee or maybe fetlock on the left. Hopefully that's also just a 'trick' of the camera angle - and enhanced by his long hooves, and he's turned out in front just because of tight shoulders - maybe 'fixed' with some chiro work.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

loosie said:


> That's better - he doesn't look so hugely rump high in those pics, looks a lot better balanced. See how much even slightly different angle pics give a different idea? I don't like his hind end much, but a lot that people take as 'conformation', thinking it unchangeable, is actually _postural_. He does appear sickle hocked, but I wonder, the 'goose rump'(didn't know it was called that - cute!) may be able to be corrected with some chiropractic work, and then his legs should change too. The appearance of a short back is because of pelvis angle too I think.
> 
> As said, at his immature age, lots can change with growth too.
> 
> ...


His rump is funny to me because of the “cheeks” that he has. I think that the muscling is making it look more goose-rumped than it actually is. It’s hard to judge by just looking at the pictures and not actually seeing him in person. I know he hasn’t had his feet done in a while so that’s why they look long. His farrier is actually his owner’s husband who has been a farrier for over 20 years and is very good at what he does so I’ll have him trim him ASAP.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I like his shoulder, and his hind end. Part of the problem with photographing him is the white tail on the black hindquarter. I think with a good trim his front legs may look better. His neck is a little shorter than I like, but I do like his head. He looks quite short, unless the man is really tall. Cute horse, overall!


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

greentree said:


> I like his shoulder, and his hind end. Part of the problem with photographing him is the white tail on the black hindquarter. I think with a good trim his front legs may look better. His neck is a little shorter than I like, but I do like his head. He looks quite short, unless the man is really tall. Cute horse, overall!


Blackjack is pretty short, but he looks extra short next to the guy because he is 6’4” lol


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

You need to take pictures with him squared out and standing straight. One from the side, back and front so we can see his lines and angles.

Horses grow in height until 3 some take longer than that. Then they grow in width until about 5.

At 2 they go through an awkward stage where their head looks to big, back looks too short and where they are still learning their balance. 

The best way to see more or less what he’s going to look like is to look at pictures of his **** and sire and any offspring produced via the same breeding parents.

Usually their height will be somewhere between the two horses bred.


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

This is a great link with pictures that both explains confirmation issues and why they happen as well as show you the differences. 

All About the Horse's Conformation/Part 1

He is still well muscled in the quarters so really it only appears to be aesthetic for him. Some can be goose rumped to the point where their quarters are weakened by it.

His front needs strengthening work, which is common on the big ole apple but paints, especially at his age and if they've been stalled up more than running free. Looks like his head needs to drop as well for the appropriate muscling on it, shoulder and topline work.

His toes are long. He definitely needs corrective shoeing which will help with the pigeon toe. Strengthening his front will also help with the pigeon toe.

I am not seeing anything though aside from the long toe and pigeon toe that would disqualify him from showing or being a great horse. You aren't going to be using him for breeding obviously and he's young. The minor things that you are able to correct in him right now and the fact that you can work him more now should correct the other issues to the point they are hardly noticeable.

He definitely needs front end ground work though.

Good buy in my opinion though depends how much they are selling him to you for.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi Andalusian,

Being picky on what you wrote(sorry) for the sake of clarification & more info....



AndalusionTales said:


> His toes are long. He definitely needs corrective shoeing which will help with the pigeon toe. Strengthening his front will also help with the pigeon toe.


To be sure, he needs *_correct_ trimming* yesterday, but I strongly disagree that he(or virtually any horse without VERY good orthopedic reason) should be _shod_ prior to maturity.

'CorrectIVE' when talking things like pigeon toes, tends to imply trimming in such a way as to make his feet _look_ straighter. This is cosmetic only, and tends to be damaging in the long run, by putting torque on joints that don't want to go that way - pigeon toes, _*or as the case is here, the opposite,*_ tend to be caused not just from hoof imbalance but to limb deformation. Therefore to 'fix' just the hooves is likely to cause damage to the joints. And IF it is valgus through leg joints, that, at 2yo is an unfixable 'conformation fault'. You shouldn't attempt to 'correct' them, but trim them to balance them to the legs they're attached to. 

But hopefully the problem is that he's just 'bound up'(over tight) in the shoulders and a chiro vet or such can 'fix' him. Then once his body & hooves are right, 'strengthening work' will help. But it could potentially be unhelpful to do that kind of work if there is some kind of physical issue preventing him moving properly.

I am not seeing anything though aside from the long toe and pigeon toe that would disqualify him from showing or being a great horse. You aren't going to be using him for breeding obviously and he's young. The minor things that you are able to correct in him right now and the fact that you can work him more now should correct the other issues to the point they are hardly noticeable.


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

Yes, I definitely agree with corrective trimming, that’s my bad on posting quickly without thinking it through. Thanks for correcting me on that. I really hate putting confusing info out that would only confuse the reader more. Sometimes I wish I could unscrew my head and let people see in my brain so what I’m trying to convey was much clearer than my words. So I’m actually very grateful you caught that!

I have worked with some quarters though that have been toed out where once they were worked and trimmed properly it straightened them out. The lack of muscling and the space the muscle occupies in the front of the body along with its pull on the bone can make a difference in the rotation of the bone. However, if this is skeletal and not muscular, then that’s where correction can actually cause harm joint wise not only through the limb but the entire body.

Honestly though, she looks good to me for what you want her for.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

Thank you everyone, again, for all the comments! It was great to get some more opinions. I do see a lot of the things that everyone is talking about. I will definitely be correcting the feet and doing some groundwork to get his front end more balanced. 

I have decided to buy him! I just could pass up the opportunity. I actually did the string test on him and it looks like he has a couple more inches to grow and will end up being about 15hh.


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## jamee (Jan 13, 2019)

Also, here’s a picture of his mother! She’s a pretty little thing.


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