# The Foggy World of Bay...



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Can anyone shed some light on bay variations? I know that 

black base + Agouti = bay

and until a short time ago I thought all the variations were just that, the same genetics, slightly different appearance. I would love it if someone could clarify

a)wild bay
b)brown
c)silver bay

What are the differences from "standard" bay? What is the difference between a brown and a bay? To me a basic bay is colored like my mare, Lady:










But then I have Pickles, my two year old appy x aqha. Her sire looks like a liver chestnut with a blaze, blanket and 4 white socks, her dam is a bay quarter horse. She is starting to roan out, but her legs are not solid black, like Lady's, they are faded?


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I think both are bay. Looks like your Appy guy could carry a grey gene and is roaning out? 

Wild bays are a bay with a silver dominate gene. The coat usually doesn't get affected, but the mane and tail will fade to a "silver" colour. 
Brown I find to be kind of an ambigious term. They say bay's don't have the lighter colour around their muzzles/flanks, but that's not true. 

Bays are all over the place, though.
These are all bays, but all different:


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Appy guy could carry a grey gene and is roaning out?


Roan, yes, grey, no. Sire was appy and dam solid bay, so I'm guessing a slow occuring varnish roan? She was solid bay last year.

Thanks for the reply


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I didn't make much sense, anyway. I should have said greying out. Or is expressing a roan gene.
Or Rabicano, could be. I'm not a great colour expert. I'll be on here next year, wondering if my stallion threw me greys or bays. LOL

He's got super hocks, by the way! He'd make a great reiner.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> He's got super hocks, by the way! He'd make a great reiner.


I beleive she is halter and pleasure bred. I bought her because her disposition was amazing. Hoping to make a mountain horse out of her one day. You should see her change direction on a lunge line, sits right down and whips around, just effortless. The first mare, Lady, has my heart too though, egyptian arab and just fearless. Not an easy ride, but way to much fun.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Oops, I kept calling she a he... LOL 

I remember seeing Lady for sale. I almost went to look at her, but she didn't quite fit in with my CMK/Polish Arabians. Probably just as well as I have too many already! LOL 
They are always a fun ride, though! My five year old gelding is going great, he'll be one of those old kid horses. My eight year old still spooks randomly sometimes, and he's my favourite to ride.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Some of the more Appy knowledgeable people may chime in here (I'm more of a paint person lol) but I believe the more correct term for your guy is "coloring out". Horses can't really roan out from what I recall, they are roan from birth usually. Your appaloosa is probably just getting his varnish.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Bridgertrot said:


> Some of the more Appy knowledgeable people may chime in here (I'm more of a paint person lol) but I believe the more correct term for your guy is "coloring out". Horses can't really roan out from what I recall, they are roan from birth usually. Your appaloosa is probably just getting his varnish.


I don't know. I bought a black filly that turned blue roan slowly over the years. I have a chestnut mare that turns a little more roan (rabicano actually, so she may not apply here) every year - her flanks are almost all white now.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Any one can feel free to explain rabaciano while your at it too


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> I think both are bay. Looks like your Appy guy could carry a grey gene and is roaning out?
> 
> Grey does not cause a horse to "roan out". You have three different things confused here - grey causes a horse to get progressively white all over, roan causes a horse's coat to be a blend of white and coloured hairs, and varnish causes a horse to get progressively whiter but leaving colour on the "hard" points of the body - where the bone is really. The varnish getting more progressive is called "colouring out".
> 
> ...


There is nothing ambiguous about brown. It IS a colour, it HAS been mapped genetically, it DOES exist. It is a mutation of the agouti gene that restricts black in a different way to bay and wild bay.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> I don't know. I bought a black filly that turned blue roan slowly over the years. I have a chestnut mare that turns a little more roan (rabicano actually, so she may not apply here) every year - her flanks are almost all white now.


You're right in that rabicano does not relate to roan. Separate things going on.

The black filly that turned blue roan - how old is she currently? I would love to see a picture of her - I bet that she is grey not roan...


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm curious about a picture as well. Were either parents of your appy roan?


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

And around these parts they call a reddish bay a blood bay??


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SpiritLifter said:


> And around these parts they call a reddish bay a blood bay??


Colour descriptions like that are very regional and have little to do with the genetics behind it. They are descriptive of the phenotype.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> Any one can feel free to explain rabaciano while your at it too


Rabicano is a gene that causes white ticking (often mistaken for roan) that concentrates on the flank and barrel. It also causes a coontail. It's also mistaken for brindle because the ticking often forms into lines and appears stripey.

This is a pretty loud rabicano:









I'm also guessing that the OP's second horse is a varnish roan, which will change from year to year because appaloosa genes are crazy. There's one Appy at my barn that hasn't had any indication of varnish the last 2 years other than ticking that you would typically see on a chestnut horse anyway. This year, she could be easily be mistaken for a minimal roan.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> > Bridgertrot I'm curious about a picture as well. Were either parents of your appy roan?


The mare gave every indication on being a plain bay, no white even. The stallion was a(I think) liver chestnut with 4 high whites, a blaze and a blanket. Appy genetics are.....a bit crazy. I know neither parent was grey or conventional roan, so I guessed varnish


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> You're right in that rabicano does not relate to roan. Separate things going on.
> 
> The black filly that turned blue roan - how old is she currently? I would love to see a picture of her - I bet that she is grey not roan...


I sold her as a two year old, I'll have to see if I can dig up pictures, but I'm not sure I can. She was sired by a blue roan stallion, out of a grey mare, but according to her new owners, she is still a roan.


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