# Black and white or brown....



## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

This is my lil huy Salem.Both his parents are registered black and white and hes **** for black But the sun fades it to brown BIGTIME.Think it will darken as the summer comes on?


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I would say balck if that is what he is regestered at. And also you can put him on supplements to make him more black


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Which supplements?


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

He'll fade if he stays out in the sun. Unless you show is it that big of a deal? You can use paprika but you would have needed to start before the shed to really get it to work well.

Black as Knight has paprika and is super expensive, so regular paprika works fine (better if you do it before they start shedding).


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Solon said:


> He'll fade if he stays out in the sun. Unless you show is it that big of a deal? You can use paprika but you would have needed to start before the shed to really get it to work well.
> 
> Black as Knight has paprika and is super expensive, so regular paprika works fine (better if you do it before they start shedding).


 I dont plan on showing,I was just wondering.Especialy when I go to register him,I dont wanna register him black if he isnt.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Well, even if he's a 'fading' black, he's still black if that's how you register him. My horse is a true black and he fades in the sun.


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## SilentBravery09 (May 22, 2009)

Thats strange I have a registered Black and White Paint and she never fades. We live in the desert as well and she spends most of her time, actually all of it, out in the sun and she never fades. She isnt on any supplements or anything. I think he may be a brown cause true black doesnt fade. At least I dont think.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Yes a true black fades. My percheron is a true black and he fades. Some summers he doesn't fade much, some he fades quite a bit.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Blue is defentaly a true black and white and she fades easily too. I would regester him Black


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Black as Knight is a feed through supplement that helps keep dark horses from bleaching out in the sunlight. I'm using it for the first time with my dark bay and so far he's much darker than he was this time last year. I think you have to start it before the sun gets strong. Probably too late to start this year.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone! Like I said,I dont plan on showing but I do want some nice pics for his registration.I may Stud him out later if he keeps a quiet temperment.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

SilentBravery09 said:


> Thats strange I have a registered Black and White Paint and she never fades. We live in the desert as well and she spends most of her time, actually all of it, out in the sun and she never fades. She isnt on any supplements or anything. I think he may be a brown cause true black doesnt fade. At least I dont think.


 Maybe that has something to do with the minerals in the rocks and dirt where you live.Your horse could be getting extra stuff from the ground.....just a guess.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Stud? His conformation is not stud quality. He'll make a nice looking gelding, but from the pictures, not a stud. I'm sure you already know but keeping a stud should be done based on _conformation_ as well as tempermant.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

There's no such thing as "true" black. Black can be either fading or non-fading, neither one makes them any more or any less "black". Genetically they are still black. Non-fading black is quite a bit more rare then fading black, which gives us the horses that sunbleach.

I don't understand how you can know he's homozygous for black and yet not KNOW if he's black. He can't be homozygous for black if he ISN'T black, so if he IS homozygous, then he's obviously black. Two black and white parents don't automatically make a foal homozygous for black. ROFL. That was a mouthful.

If his parents truly were black, then the only color he could possibly be is black. The only other possibility would be chestnut, which he obviously isn't.

Fading doesn't mean anything, my girl is black tobiano and you'd swear she's bay from the color of her flank spots (her head is totally black though and both her parents are also black).


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

This has a good explanation of fading and non fading too:

Base Horse Coat Colors - Black

ETA: I always thought of the 'true' blacks term used for foals born black with only white on their heads or legs, after looking up this info from your post Miko I see it's fading/non-fading. Which makes sense.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There's no such thing as "true" black. Black can be either fading or non-fading, neither one makes them any more or any less "black". Genetically they are still black. Non-fading black is quite a bit more rare then fading black, which gives us the horses that sunbleach.
> 
> I don't understand how you can know he's homozygous for black and yet not KNOW if he's black. He can't be homozygous for black if he ISN'T black, so if he IS homozygous, then he's obviously black. Two black and white parents don't automatically make a foal homozygous for black. ROFL. That was a mouthful.
> 
> ...


 I was told hes **** for black and I have his fathers papers but waiting on the mothers.People arent always honest and of course I wondered if maybe someone was fibbing a little about his genetics.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Solon said:


> Stud? His conformation is not stud quality. He'll make a nice looking gelding, but from the pictures, not a stud. I'm sure you already know but keeping a stud should be done based on _conformation_ as well as tempermant.


 I know his conformation isnt perfect but he has fantastic bloodlines.I wasnt thinking world class but Im pretty sure he could turn a buck.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Solon said:


> Stud? His conformation is not stud quality. He'll make a nice looking gelding, but from the pictures, not a stud. I'm sure you already know but keeping a stud should be done based on _conformation_ as well as tempermant.


 And I only mentioned temperment cause if he acts a fool,hes getten gelded for sure!


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## NokotaWildHeart (May 27, 2009)

I had a black horse to and he would also fade in the summer, I did not now that there was a supplement for that.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

mystikal222 said:


> I know his conformation isnt perfect but he has fantastic bloodlines.I wasnt thinking world class but Im pretty sure he could turn a buck.


Bloodlines look nice on a pedigree but if it doesn't translate down to the actual horse it doesn't really mean much.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Solon said:


> Bloodlines look nice on a pedigree but if it doesn't translate down to the actual horse it doesn't really mean much.


 I dunno....some ppl care more about a bloodline than it should really ever matter.And who knows,maybe he will even out,hes not even a year n a half!


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

That was just a general statement! I should have added that! He does have time to even out. Sounds like you'll make an informed decision.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Its not even really a big deal.I got him because I loved his sweetness and more than likely he will be my very best lil trail buddy.Im not into "horse politics" like showing and even breeding is a bit more than Im looking for,it was just a thought.I just love the lil guy.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

mystikal222 said:


> I know his conformation isnt perfect but he has fantastic bloodlines.I wasnt thinking world class but Im pretty sure he could turn a buck.


Yeah, all the way to the slaughter house. Honestly, I'm not even trying to be rude, but do people like you even stop for the briefest moment and actually contemplate the consequences of your actions? Are you ignorant or do you just not care? I've heard the worst excuses in the book, but to actually say "as long as he makes me money!" has got to be the absolute worst.

For any concerned mods, I'm now removing myself from this topic. I said what I had to say as nicely as I could, and since I doubt any attention will be paid to it anyway, I won't further insult this forum bu continueing.

Good luck.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Miko you do have a valid point, which is why I brought it up when it was first mentioned. So don't discount that others who lurk will learn from what you said!


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Yeah, all the way to the slaughter house. Honestly, I'm not even trying to be rude, but do people like you even stop for the briefest moment and actually contemplate the consequences of your actions? Are you ignorant or do you just not care? I've heard the worst excuses in the book, but to actually say "as long as he makes me money!" has got to be the absolute worst.
> 
> For any concerned mods, I'm now removing myself from this topic. I said what I had to say as nicely as I could, and since I doubt any attention will be paid to it anyway, I won't further insult this forum bu continueing.
> 
> Good luck.


 WOOOOOOOOWWW!!! If someone were going to pay a stud fee,even a small one,Im pretty sure it wouldnt be to send the foal to a slaughter house.Look before you leap cause Im the FARTHEST thing from someone who would keep horses just to make money!Thats WHY I dont get into showing,ppl start treating their horses like crap just for a freaken ribbon! Way off buddy-not cool.


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## saint3meg3rlfc (May 16, 2009)

mystikal222 said:


> WOOOOOOOOWWW!!! If someone were going to pay a stud fee,even a small one,Im pretty sure it wouldnt be to send the foal to a slaughter house.


Someone must have at one point for most horses that end up in slaughter. Look I'm REALLY not trying to bite your head off and I understand you were just throwing ideas around. But we have a lot of opinions on bad breeding. 

We just don't want you to make a mistake


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

You could also use a sheet to help with bleaching.

ETA: Whoa. *Steps Away* I didnt realize there were more than one page. *Goes back to read*


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

I would NEVER do any dealings with someone I didnt trust.I wanted to breed my American Bulldog a while back but didnt cause the ppl who inquired didnt seem like they would take very good care of the puppies.I dispise ppl who look at any animal and see dollar signs so that really hit a nerve.I took Salem cause hes so sweet,not cause he might be worth something.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

mystikal222 said:


> I know his conformation isnt perfect but he has fantastic bloodlines.I wasnt thinking world class but Im pretty sure he could turn a buck.


I think the replies you got came from the 'turn a buck' reply you gave. I thought the same thing, that it was a money thing but you may have meant something entirely different.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

Solon said:


> I think the replies you got came from the 'turn a buck' reply you gave. I thought the same thing, that it was a money thing but you may have meant something entirely different.


 Everyone keeps telling me that b/w paints are popular and that I should consider breeding him later on.I thought it might be fun,I know a lot of ppl that are into paints(nice ppl that I used to work for and with).The way I said it does sound off and if I didnt know me,I guess it would have raised my eyebrows too.Im not used to talking horses to ppl who dont know me or how I am...


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Oh definitely! Color is big. Paints/pintos - they are beautiful. Breeding is a serious thing. I think that's what everyone is trying to say.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> There's no such thing as "true" black. Black can be either fading or non-fading, neither one makes them any more or any less "black". Genetically they are still black. Non-fading black is quite a bit more rare then fading black, which gives us the horses that sunbleach.
> 
> I don't understand how you can know he's homozygous for black and yet not KNOW if he's black.* He can't be homozygous for black if he ISN'T black*, so if he IS homozygous, then he's obviously black. Two black and white parents don't automatically make a foal homozygous for black. ROFL. That was a mouthful.
> 
> ...


Absolutely 100% WRONG!

Black
Buckskin
Dun
Grulla
Bay
Perilino
Blue Roan
Brown
can all be homozygous black.

I've been into black and white Paints for a long time.
mystikal222, it looks to me that your boy is brown. Which he can still be homozygous for the black gene.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

This site talks about homozygous blacks. Interesting stuff:

Homozygous Black coat color genetics explained


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

PS Homozygous only means he cannot throw a red-based color foal.
After re-reading your post Macabre I think you should really study up on the things you are trying to chew people out over, before doing so.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Shawneen said:


> Absolutely 100% WRONG!
> 
> Black
> Buckskin
> ...


My apologies, I messed up the homozygous issue, for some reason I've been researching homozygous tobianos lately and I've been notorious for getting my facts mixed up.

However - if his parents are black, he CANNOT be brown. Black cannot produce brown anymore then it can produce bay when bred to black. The only two color options for that genetic combination is black or chestnut - and he's clearly not chestnut. So unless the information about his parents is incorrect, he's not brown.

So please don't snob off at me for a mistake unless you follow your own advice, thanks.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

First off I was correcting the statement that I bolded from your post.
You are right, black and black will = either sorrel(7%) or black.
However, it is not uncommon for brown or bay horses to be called black, which would lead to 60%+ chance of getting another bay. Lower for black and less for sorrel.
If one was black and the other was bay with homozygous black gene it would be 75%bay, 25% black.

Where was I wrong? What advice do I need to follow? I was merely correting you that he can't be **** black if he ISNT black. I think you are the one who needs to lighten up on the "snobbing off."


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

I understand.And thanks Solon for explaining and being patient.There are some "Feisty" ppl round here and you really shouldnt have to explain for them but I appreciate it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

mystikal222 said:


> I understand.And thanks Solon for explaining and being patient.There are some "Feisty" ppl round here and you really shouldnt have to explain for them but I appreciate it.


I'm sorry for making assumptions and jumping on you. It's just an extremely stressful time for horses, and you really made yourself sound like you were just interested in stud fees. I'm not saying that people will breed for slaughter babies, I'm saying that when badly conformed cheap foals are born and people decide they don't want them anymore, they DO end up on slaughter trucks. So please just keep that in mind.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I'm sorry for making assumptions and jumping on you. It's just an extremely stressful time for horses, and you really made yourself sound like you were just interested in stud fees. I'm not saying that people will breed for slaughter babies, I'm saying that when badly conformed cheap foals are born and people decide they don't want them anymore, they DO end up on slaughter trucks. So please just keep that in mind.


 Thank you for the apology.Im very sensitive on the subject myself. I would never put any animal in the hands of someone I didnt trust profoundly.I agree with you 100%.Im not even a fan of paints really lol,Salem was just always so happy to see me evry morning and I loved that about him.But everyone kept saying I should consider breeding him later and it was just a thought that crossed my mind.And in retrospect,Solon is probably right about him not being stud quality,I just got a lil defensive about my baby boy..


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## ivorygold1195 (May 27, 2009)

hes a fading black and theirs a shampoo that will mafe him darker its called Quicblack.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

mystikal222 said:


> Thank you for the apology.Im very sensitive on the subject myself. I would never put any animal in the hands of someone I didnt trust profoundly.I agree with you 100%.Im not even a fan of paints really lol,Salem was just always so happy to see me evry morning and I loved that about him.But everyone kept saying I should consider breeding him later and it was just a thought that crossed my mind.And in retrospect,Solon is probably right about him not being stud quality,I just got a lil defensive about my baby boy..



Totally understandable!! We all want to think our horses are perfect. I thought the same thing when I got my boy. I was so excited because he's got extremely major bloodlines that are top of the line. So I posted pictures and thought it would be fun to have him as a stud. I didn't know a lot about draft conformation and was told he would make a beautiful gelding but that he wasn't stallion material.

I was pretty off put by that. But then they pointed out the issues and I realized yeah, that was true. And they told me that breeding was a big deal and shouldn't be done lightly (and never to make money unless you are a huge farm).

So I made the appointment to nip off his dangly bits. And lo and behold the lady I was buying him from (I was making payments) bred him to her mare!!!! I was so angry. Luckily he threw such a lovely beautiful filly that was just amazing. But it might not have turned out so nice because of his conformation issues.

You've got a nice a looking horse. Just remember, they see saw back and forth like crazy until they get older and there's gonna be some times where you will look at him and go DANG! what has happened to you!! I know I did!


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Black totally. My first ever horse was a youngster basically just like your's. She would get out in the sun, and out of nowhere that brown would just show up.

One solution to fixing that is to turn the horse out in the nighttime, and not let her stay so much out in the sun. Or, supplements help, A LOT.


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## mystikal222 (May 26, 2009)

I know,I hate how short his neck is right now but overall,hes gonna be great no matter what!His main job in life will prolly be getting spoiled(really,the pet/people-gift ratio under my christmas tree every year is ridiculous lol).Ive always wanted to get into barrel racing but we'll have to see if he turns out for it..


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