# Sticky  "Try" and re-teaching a horse heart



## gssw5

Lovely post.

I agree the key is setting them up for success from the start, and breaking everything down into the smallest increments. Then rewarding for the smallest try. When you start slow, and correct the process ends up going faster in the long run.


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## bsms

Trooper had been viciously spurred by some cowboy while loaned to a ranch in Colorado just before coming to us. He spent at least a year on the "You Can Do No Wrong" program, but he still worries more about getting it right. I've read that in experiments, when the horse is punished for the wrong choice, it learns faster - but at a cost. The horse then becomes more afraid of getting it wrong, and can become very hesitant. It worries more about not being wrong than being able to make a good choice. If the horse was then presented with a close call, the horse would become almost immobile. It would be too worried about being wrong to make ANY choice. :evil:


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## tinyliny

That is really interesting. you have been so perceptive and patient . thank you for writing down your observations. well written.


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## Incitatus32

I couldn't agree more. My gelding never got a good education. From the moment he hit the ground until he was rescued he'd been beaten, thrown around and when he turned two taken to a show and nearly beat to death with a club for not running fast enough. Through years, YEARS of work we've gotten a nice gelding who positively enjoys his job. I'm constantly amazed that he throws his heart into doing whatever I ask. I can ask something that's unfair for him and he still tries his hardest to do as I ask. 

Then I look at my stud colt who has always known kindness and patience and he throws his entire being into understanding and cooperating. I can ask the largest thing of him and he goes above and beyond to accomplish it. Seeing the difference between the two and the time makes me want to horsewhip the previous owner of my gelding. 

Excellent post! I loved reading it!


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## Sharpie

Thank you for your kind words, but a large part of it is I was darned lucky to get the horse I did. 

Sometimes I worry that he believes me too much, and I have to be smart and not betray his trust because if I tell him to go ahead and do something (go down that steep hill, into the river, whatever) he will... usually after double checking and making *sure* I really mean *that* hill, right there. A few times that has been a bad call on my part and it was only his natural instincts and athleticism that saved both our hides. There is a time, IMO, to give a horse his head and just hang on and rely on the fact that they don't want to die either. "Saving humans from themselves" is a horse job description, right? Definitely one deserving heavy praise.

I can never believe how forgiving of past mistakes horses can be. There is a reason they're so close in the hearts and minds and legends of so many cultures. It just kills me that its so easy for that to get shut down in some animals through, essentially, poor timing. The best trainers have such a sense of timing when to give that reward or release of pressure that it's like watching a magician. They seldom need to 'punish' a horse for trying out a wrong behavior because they make the right thing so easy and obvious that it doesn't get to that point. I love watching trainers or riders like that work.


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## tinyliny

oh, so well said!

it does seem like magic.


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## Saddlebag

I agree with gsw5 on working in small increments. I had one that would display his anger with anything knew. Once I broke it down to small increments he'd one day put it together then excel at what I was asking. It just had to be done his way.


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## jaydee

I so agree with this. 
Its what I see as the difference between a horse that works willingly because its been trained correctly and one that works begrudgingly because its been forced and pressured and punished every inch of the way


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## Foxhunter

Sharpie said:


> Thank you for your kind words, but a large part of it is I was darned lucky to get the horse I did.


Disagree with you on this!

*You* made the horse the confident animal he is now. Unless you had understood and changed his mental attitude he would still be afraid to try.

Well done, excellent post.


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## Bondre

That was an excellent and thought-provoking post, Sharpie. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.


Sharpie said:


> He knows I won't set him up to "lose", and if you can't lose, you can be a very, very brave pony indeed.


 

Thanks too to the mods for making it a sticky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie

:clap::clap::clap::clap: Very well said Sharpie. It is SUCH a common problem IME, that horses are effectively 'shut down' so much in training. It's not just that they're big animals that we need to control for safety's sake either, but I think is a 'hangover' of older training ideas that we're getting through, with more understanding of psychology these days. Not just animals either... how many kids & even adults are afraid of trying something new because they're frightened of getting it wrong?

I remember hearing Pat Parelli once say that Tom Dorrance went to hospital, maybe his deathbed, and called Pat in. He went there, wondering what vital piece of knowledge Tom would share, and Tom just said something like 'Don't knock the curiosity out of them'.


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## Customcanines

Thank you for the great post. My Nibbles was raised and trained by an excellent horseman. She is well behaved, calm and willing to do anything asked of her. I don't think she has ever been hit in anger. Chief, on the other hand, from what we have found out, had been owned and ridden by little girl and had been a great horse. When she lost interest he was sold to a lady who tried to make him into a barrel horse. When he wasn't fast enough or would hit a barrel or wouldn't turn right, he was roughly handled and whipped. By the time we got him he was a mess. He is very sweet, but evertime you'd raise your hands (while riding or on the ground) he would freak. Just picking up the reins would cause him to try to bolt. If you asked him to do anything at all he would either freeze and tremble or try to bolt. We really thought we had made a mistake. Gradually, however, he has come around. He wasn't with his last owner long, and I think he is reverting back to his old self. He listens and we are praising him when he tries. At this point we aren't asking anything really hard, but we make sure he is successful on what we do ask him. The bolting and freezing has completely stopped, but he will never have the calm "whatever" attitude Nibbles has, and it makes me so angry with the lady who did that to him. He tries SO hard to please and be a good boy, but even though he doesn't act up, you can tell he starts to worry when we ask something new. It sometimes makes me want to cry when I see that worried look in his eyes.


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## BlueSpark

> I got a horse that was terrified of doing the wrong thing though. Things he knew were right, he would do quickly and willingly, johhny-on-the-spot. Ask him something he didn't know the pat response to though (like to sidle up to a gate), and he'd get tense. He'd throw his head up in the air and either try to run off like a giraffe or try to pretend he couldn't 'hear' you at all and figuratively stuff his fingers in his ears. I think those are pretty familiar responses and things we see commonly in green horses or horses with less than perfect training.


 some horses are like this, without any bad training. My Bo's mare, that was bred and raised on the farm, does this exact thing, but she's 1200lb of very athletic thoroughbred, so it can really get dangerous if you push the wrong button. She too just needed patience, a quiet rider that was understanding, and she came around.

I think try is an interesting thing to think about. you can kill the "try" in a horse by setting it up to fail. You can kill many things, like work ethic, with this method of teaching, If you cant succeed, even the most determined will only attempt it for so long. Like a job that is constantly pushing and no matter how well you do they want more. eventually you just become desensitized to it and stop really trying. You do what you have to and that's it. The only way to fix this in a horse or human, is time and patience, like the OP did. On the other hand, there are horses without try.

I got talking to a couple cowboys about it, and they have experienced horses that would "quit" out on a trail. they just were not born with the fight and heart and determination that others were. You cant teach a horse(or human) to try when it lacks the desire or ability for it.


Really good post OP


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## Saddlebag

Before we declare an animal as being abused, if we haven't witnessed it then it's gossip or conjecture. Horses are adept at outsmarting humans and will test their limits. This often causes people to assume abuse. A horse shutting down is a coping mechanism. They do this when attacked or too much is asked of them. We can also sour a horse with too much repetition. I have found that when teaching in increments and the horse has an "aha" moment, it really doesn't need a lot of repetition because he understands what is being asked. It is also easy to bore these horses so we need to challenge them in different ways to keep them interested.


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## Customcanines

If you were resonding to my comments, yes the horse was abused. I know as a dog trainer that many people will say their dog has been abused when it is simply inheritently shy, and people say their horses have been abused when they haven't been. I know that it is human nature to want to "blame" someone or something for their animals behavior and to try to justify behavior that doesn't make sense to them. Chief unfortunately WAS abused. I actually saw a video of the lady "training" him, which included holding him back and whipping him until he was in a fenzy, then letting him go. She would then haul back as hard as she could on the reins to get control. The vet said he had small scars on his side from spurs. The farrier told me that he had seen her repeatedly hit Chief hard in the face for not holding still. I have been told other things as well, but have no proof of those things, so I won't say anything. We have also spoken with people who knew him before, who said he was a doll - very laid back and willing. Since we went back to the basics and have been fair in our demands, he has gotten much better. We insist that he does what we ask, and are gradually asking more and more. We are careful to reward "try". Hopefully he will be back to his old self soon.


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## Foxhunter

There are more forms of abuse than just beating a horse or riding it roughly.

I sold a green Irish horse to a very good young rider. A year later he was brought back as being unrideable. He never bucked or dropped the rider, he just sagged when you went to get on him so much so how belly nearly touched the ground. The owners had oodles of money and had had the horse to all sorts of bets for an explanation. No one had one.
I chucked him out in a field and was going to have him euthanised. The day I went down to get him in. The gateway was knee deep with mud so instead of me trying to wade through the wellie sucking stuff, I vaulted across his neck and withers so he carried me through. He never sagged at all and once on firmer ground he cantered off so I just stuck a leg over him and rode him across the other field. He was even half bucking. I only had a flat halter on him so not a lot of control. I turned him to the rails and he just pricked hi ears and jumped them landing in the garden! 
That changed my mind about shooting him so he stayed. I rode him out and about bareback, then I ponied him tacked up. Then started to rode him. Whatever had bothered him had disappeared.
He was a very good horse, always tried his best and I won many show jumping competitions with him.
At a regional competition it was held in an indoor arena. I had jumped him in a warm up class earlier and he was his usual self. Took him into the indoor and his back immediately sagged. I dismounted and took him out. He was tense and upset. I walked him in hand away from the other horses and into some woods. He began to relax and so I vaulted onto him. He was fine. I rode him bareback to the other horses and as soon as he was near the indoor he sagged.
Next day he was fine. It made me think. A call to the girl and I was told that as he had been spooky when she rode him out her father forbid her from roding anywhere bar the indoor arena.

I kept him because he puzzled me. I would pony him around a local indoor and soon he was slightly happier. I had ridden him around t on a couple of occasions and although he never sagged he was tight. One day two of us had had a lovely ride and we were passing the indoor so I thought I would give him a quick trot around it. The local Pont Club were having a gymkhana games practise so we just sat on our horses as the hairy ponies raced up and down with children jumping on and off them. Cheeky was fascinated and stood excitedly watching.
One girl offered me a bending race challenge so we raced up and down the poles. Cheeky loved it, wasn't far behind the pony at the finish!
I never managed to get him working or jumping happily in an indoor, he did it without sagging but was never relaxed. 

He had never been knocked around or incorrectly ridden but the mental abuse, although unintentional, had occurred and went unrecognised. 

I kept him for three years turning down a lot of money for him amd in the end I gave him to a girl who had ridden ponies for me. I knew she would give him a wonderful home and she would never get rid of him nor would she force him indoors. 
She kept him through thick and thin. He was finally euthanised at her home at the grand old age of thirty three.


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## TessaMay

You can train a horse (or dog, human, any animal) either by punishing the incorrect responses or by rewarding the correct (or a little of both). Both techniques will get you results, but they will produce very different horses. I used to think my horse would never have any drive or desire to please me, but found that switching up training methods completely changed her.


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## ecasey

Wonderful original post and follow up too. You are so right. Horses are amazing creatures. I wish the rest of the world knew that.


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## loosie

BlueSpark said:


> some horses are like this, without any bad training. .... You cant teach a horse(or human) to try when it lacks the desire or ability for it.


I disagree. Well, of course all horses are different, in this as any other ways, but while they may not be *born* with a lot of 'heart', it is the job of the trainer to instill that in them. They can either be encouraged or discouraged. You can absolutely & positively teach a horse to want to 'try'.


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## bsms

I've never tried cutting cattle, so take this FWIW:

I read a book about cutting. The guy said it was important to start the horse on a cow the horse could 'beat'. He said you could then train it up and get a horse who would give you his best. But if you put him on too tough a cow too quick, the horse would give up and never be worth a darn cutting. Part of good training was to pick challenges that set the horse up for success, and then build on those successes.

That makes sense to me. I do know a study was done where horses who made the wrong choice had an air horn go off to punish them. It was a fast way to train them, but the horses would become more focused on not making the wrong choice, and eventually would refuse to make a choice at all. 

In that sense, I don't think horses are all that different from humans. In the military, some commanders were "no mistakes allowed" in their approach. In those squadrons, folks worked hard to avoid responsibility and refused to take initiative because it would only buy them trouble in the long run. I also had some bosses who would understand a reasonable mistake and cover your butt, and those squadrons tended to be outstanding.


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## greenhaven

bsms said:


> I've never tried cutting cattle, so take this FWIW:
> 
> I read a book about cutting. The guy said it was important to start the horse on a cow the horse could 'beat'. He said you could then train it up and get a horse who would give you his best. But if you put him on too tough a cow too quick, the horse would give up and never be worth a darn cutting. Part of good training was to pick challenges that set the horse up for success, and then build on those successes.


SOOO true, and not exclusive to cutting training!


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## Saddlebag

A wonderful aspect of working with a horse at liberty is he can walk away if what you are asking is too much. By allowing this to happen with no consequence the horse comes to realize it wasn't so bad and will do better the next time. eg the ground tarp was too much so the horse left. He didn't go far. I waited. He returned of his own volition and crossed the tarp full of confidence.


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## loosie

greenhaven said:


> SOOO true, and not exclusive to cutting training!


& I've never been into bronc riding either, but to prove it's not about cutting or bronc riding... a lot of broncs come from ponyclubbers who have inadvertently taught them this is the 'winning way'!


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## BlueSpark

I was working with a very green percheron gelding this weekend, which reminded me of this thread. His owner is a wonderful person and a decent rider, but not super experienced and prone to nervousness and anxiety. The horse was not really touched out on the range until 2, when he was brought in as a stud, at which point he was halter broke and gelded.

since then he has been worked with a lot, on and off over the last 4 years. He is very sensitive, 16.2hh, 2000lb, top of the herd, and tends to be reactive and nervous. He has gotten to the point where he is excellent at all his ground work, super respectful, but panics. He was taught to drive, and had panicking issues with something behind him. he has been started under saddle and thrown people at least 3 times in his handful of rides. I started working with him to figure out what was going on, he was great for me, reactive and sensitive, but super willing and attentive. We rode all over the country side, often leading a group, and I had not one significant issue. After the first 5 minutes of anxiety he quieted down.

it finally dawned on me what had happened to this horse. He had been set up to fail. On the ground he was taught that his handler was the leader, but in the saddle it was a different story. His rider would get on, he was green and unsure, and then they would become nervous, which would scare him, and then them, until he was in a panic. He would be asked to do things, like trot, but his rider would immediately tense, so he would tense, so they would panic, and he would follow suit. Despite the best intentions, his riders set him up to fail, and doing what people asked of him resulted in fear and tension. He was so afraid of picking the wrong answer that he didn't want to pick any at all.


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## Roadbadger

A really good original post and many excellent comments from people that obviously know their "stuff".
I'll just throw my 2 cents in and say that a sensitive horse needs to be able to make mistakes without repercussion. Most of my experience has been with Arabs and I have found that they are not a good match for trainers that aren't patient and don't take the time to gain their trust. 

I have an 11 year old Quarab mare that I believe the previous owners gave up on because they though she couldn't handle pressure. All she needed was time away from spurs and less use of the end of the reins.
Her head is now back in the game (a year later) and she is calm and has a controlled energy, and she deals with things unfamiliar to her like a bomb proof old draft horse.


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## Ripplewind

Good on you for sticking with him, taking the time to figure him out, and giving your boy a chance!


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## Paulaf

great post, I think anyone who has ever rescued and re-educated a horse can't help but agree with you - small simple victories breed confidence. congrats- you two sound like a good match


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## Sharpie

I was reading this thread by reiningcatsanddogs http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/thinking-horse-cognition-perception-523273/ that referenced this article from 2005 about current research and findings about equine thinking abilities http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf While I was reading it, about halfway through, there was the following phrase: "This horse displayed the ability of “learning to learn” by using a general solution (one pattern in each pair was always rewarded) to more easily solve subsequent tests and was able to retain 77.5% of the [correct answers] after 6 mo."

I was So Very Excited when I read this, because this is exactly it. It is exactly what happened with my boy that changed him from a fearful-to-act horse into a determined-to-get-it-right horse. He "learned to learn". He learned there always was a right answer and how to go about figuring out what it is. And then, once he'd figured it out, he'd not only remember that answer, but use it to figure out the answer to the questions or challenges I'd face him with next.

I especially thought the idea of teaching horses enough so they have broad categories to toss novel objects into rather than having to figure out every band new thing as an individual potential monster is dead on. To start with, every cue and every object is a separate cue or object on its own that takes its own time and worry to deal with. Once a horse has seen enough "stuff" most of them, including mine, seem to start to begin "lumping" a new thing into a category they have in their head of old things so that they just treat it like they treat the other things in that group. 

For example, my guy seems to understand that "bridges" are a thing and sometimes there are noises. Rattly chains, echoing foot falls, etc. But no matter how visually different or different they sound (overpass, railroad tie construct, graveled culverts, stone, etc) I now imagine him thinking, "Oh. This is one of THOSE things" as he sighs and moves over ones he has never seen the likes of before.

This article also validates my personal pet theory which is that we should act crazy around our horses (from their point of view) sometimes to teach them that the proper response to erratic or crazy human behavior is to ignore us. That way when my horse sees someone ignorant of horses 'act crazy' while we're out it the world, my horse can go, "Oh. We've done this one before. Standing quietly is the right answer. Can do" rather than freaking out. So often people look at me as though I've lost my mind. "You'll scare the horse!" Yes. That is the point, and done in a planned, careful manner, it is so that they're NOT scared when this happens under saddle and my health and life are at risk.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I am going to add one thing to this discussion....horses are very good at associative learning where one punishment or reward becomes linked mentally with an object, person or action. 

We hear it all the time, pressure, release. 

It is quite possible in the mind of the horse, through associative learning, for the simple presence a particular person to become the pressure itself. Your simple presence becomes the pressure.

That is the downside of an aggressive use of negative reinforcement training methods. Because of the transfer of pressure = person, a release is never obtained in that person's presence (horses are good at categorization as well) and it inhibits learning. Prolonged use can lead to a generalization; all people = pressure.

That is why I believe so strongly in the importance of spending "down time" with your horse where you are asking absolutely nothing from them and their choices are theirs, you are simply "present". 

For me, I enjoy just plopping a chair out in the middle of the pasture (just our horses and our own pasture) and sitting there watching them. I don't ask or expect them to come to me, but if they choose to I let them. 

I don't use liberty training but I believe this is part of the learning theory behind it.

Please don't read into this and think it refers to acceptance/ignorance of dangerous behaviors. It simply gives them an opportunity to experience true release around you and tempers the formation of that person is pressure association and aids learning in the long run.


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## Saddlebag

Horses can be spooky either because they are nervous of a situation or because they zone out and explode when coming back to reality. I had one of the latter. I say had because a lot of liberty work. On the line he could be compliant but would frequently zone out then explode, white-eyed and snorty. He was never hit and the few who handled him were confident. It took a month of daily work at liberty, sometimes 4 or 5 times daily, just moving him around and getting him to keep both eyes on me. This was in the pasture, not the confines of a paddock or round pen. When he got over it, it happened all at once, like a huge AHA moment and he became a completely different horse, and a likeable one to boot.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My formal education is in Cognitive Psychology and I have transferred that knowledge into working with children with behavioral difficulties, learning disabilities and difficult dogs.

I am not a Behaviorist as I am less interested in eliciting a quick response than I am in the proceedure of engaging the brain to process information to arrive at the correct response and then being able to access that information at a later date as needed; AKA the process of learning. That goes for horses too, though far less is known about the workings and capabilities of the horse’s brain than humans, so we are all kind of left to our own devices.

I have two horses who were former ranch horses, one worked one of the largest ranches in the USA for the first six years of his life (he is incidentally, the most jumpy). Two of my other horses are not ranch horses. The training methods used to “break” these horses were very different. That said, so is their breeding. One of the biggest unresolved arguments in psychology is "Nature vs. Nurture".

The ranch horses came to me nervous, slow to trust, knowledgeable and stubborn. The other two came to me unflappable, curious, virtually untrained and willing.

The differences could be innate, due to training methodology/human interaction and/or life experiences.

What I have noted is that my initially “jumpy” ranch horses’ demeanor has been altered by the way I approach working with them. This leads me to believe that the differences are not permanently innate but in a large part, learned.

Both ranch horses are fairly obedient horses, so “training” in their cases is about re-teaching them to not simply react mindlessly to stimulus, but to think and process the information given. 

Increasing the access to the pathways connecting both sides of the brain (limited though not completely absent in the horse) is the long term goal.

Saddlebag, it is my theory, your a-ha moment with your horse at liberty is a turning point because a new connection was made between the right and left . Your horse discovered how to access and use a whole 'nother part of his brain (the thinking part), what a great accomplishment!


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## loosie

Sharpie said:


> "This horse displayed the ability of “learning to learn”


Yes! I think THAT is the most important lesson of all that we can instill in our horses - a desire to learn our 'games'. Same with kids. I(and so many others of my era) went to school & learned to hate it, was put down & punished by my teacher when I made mistakes, we did things by 'rote' and to my memory, no attempt was made to make it fun.... I learned to think of it as 'work' & something to be endured. I got by & passed each year, but it wasn't until late high school, that I went to a 'progressive' new school & was treated respectfully & learned that lessons could be really fun & interesting.... & started to excel. 

I was really nervous of the whole school thing, when I first had kids. But it seems times have a changed and more often than not, teachers are more considerate of all that. But still... then I walked into one local school, where all the kids seemed to be having fun & doing well. There were signs on the walls saying things like 'young children must play to learn'... & I knew I could relax! I chose that school over others, for the positive aspect, thinking that it was more important, especially in early years, than actual academic standards. But what do you know?? This school also happens to have a higher academic standard, and produces kids happy & competent to be leaders too!


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## xatabxatab

I totally agree with the second comment about that


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## piglet

I am aware that this is an old post, but I just read it, so it's new to me.

I substitute teach. I see so many students who just endure school. They don't want to learn anything because they don't think the specific knowledge has any value for them. Those students make me very sad.

Then I go visit my too-smart-for-his-own-good gelding. He makes me very happy. As a team, we are a work in progress. I really appreciate this Forum for the connections with other thinking equestrians. 

I really wish I knew what he is thinking when he stares at the birds.


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## Carma

I really like this thread a lot and I'm glad I'm not the only one!
i have a QH mare who had training gone wrong that involved constant ripping on her mouth and her nose tied in to her chest....
I am gonna be honest, i hated that horse from the beginning. she had no respect for me and i had no respect for her. but there was honestly something i began to see. she reminded me somewhat of myself. she was full of anxiety. only to the point where she would lose her brain and panic. no bolting but spinning and backing and throwing her head and boy would u make a mistake if you touched the reins if she had a bit in her mouth. (i was 10 yrs old while attempting to "train" beast). we never clicked.... until i decided to try her in english for a change.there wasn't a difference in her behavior but the way she carried herself had changed. now let me mention this horse is an impressive. and the impressive's pedigree have been very very hot horses at times. well let me tell you, there was not a single speck of western pleasure in that horse. she doesn't like anything that has to do with western.well its almost been 6 yrs and progress is very slow as if ts 1/2 a step forward and 5 steps back. so as few yrs back i gave up on "training". i began to realize this horse needed guidance and a friend who would accept her faults. only 1 year ago did we begin to finally progress. let me tell you this horse was my nanas, well now we have had to swap. i get the hot QH and she gets my calm arab. a few weeks ago i was thinking how long it had been to get anything to work well for beast. it had been 6 yrs and i hadn't gotten anywhere other than learned how to help her with her breakdowns when she had a bit in her mouth. the minute she starts to throw a fit(most people panic and tighten there reins when a horse starts jumping around) is drop the reins and your irons and let her do what she does. well... the minute you do that she stops and relaxes. you pick those reins up she ties her nose to her chest and she does the zenyatta dance. it drives me crazy and I'm surprised she hasn't killed me yet. shows were awful her anxiety would sky rocket. i never truly believed in this horse until this year and idk what it was that kept me with her other than i wanted to help her....
anyways... long story short she now jumps and totally relaxes in a hackamore, no more anxiety either she will not work in bits though. the minute you put a bit in her mouth all her anxiety comes back. i believe it reminds her of the trainer but I'm really glad i kept up with her.


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## loosie

piglet said:


> I substitute teach. I see so many students who just endure school. They don't want to learn anything because they don't think the specific knowledge has any value for them. Those students make me very sad.


I am SOOO dirty on(& confused how they made it so) my science teachers at school, who made science a boring, abstract & rather useless subject. Was only after I left school that I started to see it as anything but! If they could only have seen me riveted in lectures & lessons by a neurobiologist... DESPITE their 'teachings'!


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## jaydee

Teachers in school are not so different to horse trainers - there are some that are able to inspire the pupil to do well even when the subject is boring to them and then there are those who can't do
Horses are just as capable as children of becoming 'creative' when they think the teaching session needs livening up a bit or they just switch off and get labeled as being too 'dumb' to waste time on.


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## loosie

^Absolutely! But it didn't go down so well with some people when I've equated kids to training animals! 

Which reminds me... I don't do 'baby talk', but I do tend to 'chatter' a bit(can you tell by my posts??:icon_rolleyes and I've had people who didn't see who I was talking to say "Oh I thought you were talking to a dog, not a kid", or vice versa!


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## SunsetGlory

From my experience, it really helps if the horse knows/trusts you. (Obviously). But another HUGE factor I think is rewarding the try. Like other people have already said, if you punish the horse for doing the wrong thing, or not doing the right thing exactly correct, they become afraid to make a mistake, and therefore won't even try. But if you show them you appreciate that they made the effort, they aren't afraid to try it again, even if they don't get it right. This also translate over to pretty much any animal training in my opinion. Great post!


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## grlpolo1011

I acquired a horse last spring as a rescue who fell in to this category. He was malnourished and skinny with a wire cut to his leg that was left alone resulting in the immediate need for minor surgery. I didn't need another horse on top of the two I already had, but I couldn't let him stay where he was. I spent the next 4 months doctoring his leg and feeding him groceries and got him back to being healthy and healed. He was fine to be around on the ground less the few circles it took around the catch pen to actually catch him. I started riding him about 3 months ago and came to the conclusion that he was an absolute disaster to ride and was actually dangerous to ride as he would pay attention and seek out other horses above what I'd ask him to do while in the saddle. 
I had been told that he was around the age of 18 and had been ridden on the trail some, but otherwise has no information about his past. After about 5 rides I had written him off as dangerous and was about to look to re-home him when a friend asked to go on a trail ride with me, using my good horse, and more or less forcing me to ride my rescue. It was set to be the make or break ride on whether he went or stayed.
The first half of the ride was a disaster. He was beyond nervous and was constantly looking for something to spook at, but never spooked for fear of what would happen to him, and I was a nervous wreck as I had just come off of back surgery and REALLY didn't want to get bucked off.
He finally gave me one really good spook and turned a 180 move almost pitching me off over his shoulder. I stayed on, and just sat quiet, and when he figured out that he didn't get in trouble, you could see the look of relief on his face. The rest of the ride actually went really well with him walking stretched out, calm, and relaxed. 
The next few rides were relatively the same, but he got calmer and calmer with each ride. He is now my favorite trail horse!
I had originally thought he was just so herd bound that he was dangerous, but slowly it has come about that he has absolutely no trust in humans and only felt safe in the company of other horses. He is starting to trust me, but we have a long way to go before I feel he will truly trust a human 100%!


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## tinyliny

I haven't read the whole thread.

but, are you saying that your horse was so nervous because he had been punished every time he spooked before? and when he spooked, and you did nothing in the way of a punishment, he gained confidence?


I remember earlier in my riding journey i was riding a hrose who would periodically spook and do the 180, and he'd gotten me off 5 times! the owner of the barn said, "well did you spank him when he did that? he knows better than to do that".

i did not spank him, and I am not sure if that is a useful response. h m m ..


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## Saddlebag

My boarder's horse started to the spook and spin trick. She managed to stay on then went a little farther and again the s and s trick. I took her a riding crop and told her that as soon as he starts to turn to haul his nose around to her knee and spank his ribcage behind her leg to get his butt moving laterally in a hurry. She really got after him and that was the last time he did that.


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## SorrelHorse

From a trainers perspective, yes, it is easy to stamp out try in a horse and yes, many bad behaviors are man made - But I do, down to my core, believe that some horses simply will not try and do not want to please you, regardless of whether you've made their lives easy or given them a chance. They are all individuals, and like humans, will display both favorable and non favorable traits. I've seen and ridden some who just don't want to be nice to you, even from the very beginning. Very rarely are they ever dangerous, but if you give them the opportunity to step out and show that they can be motivated and have responsibility - They won't. Sure, you can make any horse a good horse - You can get them broke, get them responsive, but at the end of the day that's all they are - Another good horse among millions of other good horses.

Great horses are separated by their virtue of try. You see a lot of horses who compete and win, and are described as gritty and full of heart. Those are the great horses. The ones who are tenacious and willing enough to put themselves out there and do a job. That separates them from all the others. 

It's also relative. Someone who has never set foot in a competition arena and just wants a horse for the grand kids might like the little pony down the road, who is quiet and kind and loves people. That is a great horse to them - But for a hot headed, driven competitor - They wouldn't look twice at old fluffy. It just depends what you want.


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## SorrelHorse

Reading a little bit into the thread now, horses who cheat are a completely different beast IMO.

There's horses who try, Horses who are apathetic, and horses who cheat. I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, and if you watch in their early days you'll see it - After a few rides they'll start to challenge, start trying to lean on the fence, dive in, tip their head out, little things most average riders wouldn't notice. It is so important to gently correct that then and there, because those little behaviors turn into things like the 180 trick Tiny described, rearing, ducking off, head throwing, jumping about, etc. Horseman who can correct those bad habits on ride #3 when they start to wake up are a godsend, because so many other can't feel that. Yet it's so important.

Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.

One of my friends had a barrel horse who went through eight (Yes, eight) years of training and competing, and it was a whole disaster. The trainer would get him going decently, she'd take him to a race and ruin him again. She'd then blame the trainer, who proceeded to undo what she did until he was okay again - And repeat. After all these years, that big horse of hers is fried. He's bred to the nines, big and beautiful and should have been full of talent - But years of being ran too hard, too early, being ruined, retaught, ruined, retaught - Just fried him. Absolutely lost his mind. Still though, when she finally decided to sell him, she wrote he was "Full of potential" and "Just needed more training." I, personally, wouldn't touch a horse like that with a ten foot pole. He'll never race competitively again because of her, and he'll never be right in the head. 

I remember seeing that colt as a bright eyed youngster when she first bought him though. He was kind and easy going, never bothered by anything. Hauled to the races and had a good time. The last time I saw him though, he was in a vice grip of a rein, being led in the gate by three different people on horseback and frothing at the mouth. You just can't fix that if you let it get to that point. It's the unfortunate truth most people find hard to swallow.


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## Smilie

i agree with the points Sorrel Horse made, regarding horses in general
In the case of this horse, we don't know exactly where he fits
He could just have been a horse that was never ridden much, thus never learned to accept and trust humans as leaders
He could have wound up at the rescue because someone had come off of him, when he did his spooking and trying to leave-thus dumped
Once he got those groceries in him, he showed his true level of training
In the end, does not matter, as the horse responded to good basic riding, and became what th eOP wanted
That is why, when you get a horse with an unknown history, like a rescue horse, you don;t, like many here, immediately assume that the horse was abused, if he shows negative behavior, esp after some groceries, but work with the horse you now have


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## loosie

SorrelHorse said:


> believe that some horses simply will not try and do not want to please you, regardless of whether you've made their lives easy or given them a chance. They are all individuals,


Yes, they're all individuals, with different motivations. I actually think - if they exist at all - there are very few horses(or even dogs & people) that DO have anything you could call an innate 'desire to please' a person. What they all have though, is innate desire to please *themselves* and the 'DTP' another comes out of that, is a_ learned_ behaviour, because it good for THEM too. Animals are 'innocently selfish' and we can use that to all our advantages.



> Great horses are separated by their virtue of try.


I don't disagree with that at all & there are of course special horses with more... drive than others, but I'd say that great *trainers* are separated by their ability to get horses to WANT to 'try'.



> I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, ...
> Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.


Because 'cheating' is a learned behaviour too, any horse can also be *taught* it 'works'. Agreed it may be vastly more difficult to 'turn around' a horse, the longer it's 'practiced' certain behaviours/attitudes. It may be 'too hard' for many, not worth the effort, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 'can't'. Granted, the trainer may not want to bother, but who's to say your friend's horse, if in CONSISTENTLY 'good hands' wouldn't 'revert' to not just better behaviour, but a better mindset to go with it? I've seen some 'confirmed rogues' turned around.


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## Sharpie

SorrelHorse said:


> Reading a little bit into the thread now, horses who cheat are a completely different beast IMO.
> 
> There's horses who try, Horses who are apathetic, and horses who cheat. I do not like cheaters. Every horse has the potential to become one, and if you watch in their early days you'll see it... Once a horse reaches a certain point to, I believe there is no going back. Once one gets into a bad habit, or gets mentally fried, you might get them to be decent citizens again but they're never going to have that extra try you want.


I have to agree that I wouldn't touch that barrel horse with a 10 foot pole either. I'm not sure that what happened to that horse is an "incidental/accidental" poor outcome that might happen with any (usually inexperienced) trainer though. What happened to him was extremely long term, repetitive, and confusing over the course of years. I don't know if an individual horse could come back from that or not and suspect that it would really come down to "it depends." On the horse, the new situation, how long they tossed him out in a field to be a horse and decompress, a new handler/trainer, etc.

I think that most average riding horses in the US, and I think the world, or more on the green/minimally trained end than that one though, and I do think most of them could be made into "good citizens" as you said. I don't think they should necessarily all be counted out for having try either. I'm not talking abused horses, but just ones that got the average/cowboy training, which in my observation is based more on getting them moving under saddle quickly for sale than really teaching them to be good reliable pleasure mounts in the long term.

I wonder, would you have thought my horse a cheater? He certainly wasn't ever apathetic, but he wasn't much for trying either at the start. Freezing up and/or acting dumb doesn't really seem like a "cheat" to me since, in his case, it was out of fear.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely horses that pull dirty tricks that deserve a swat. In those cases the motivation isn't fear though, so it's a different matter to my mind and that is what I might consider "cheating."


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## Saddlebag

When a teen I rode a horse that tried every trick in the book with me. He preferred the security of the barn with other horses. Each time I rode he'd test me then finally quit and be fine. I didn't hit him, just outrode him. I wasn't able to ride for several weeks and boy he was full of testing me, all over again. Only this time he added rearing to the mix. About the third one I hollered for my friend to close the barn door. Instead she ran out and wrapped the whip around the two legs that were on the ground. He came down fast and trotted off when I asked. He suddenly became a well mannered horse.


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## SorrelHorse

loosie said:


> Because 'cheating' is a learned behaviour too, any horse can also be *taught* it 'works'. Agreed it may be vastly more difficult to 'turn around' a horse, the longer it's 'practiced' certain behaviours/attitudes. It may be 'too hard' for many, not worth the effort, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 'can't'. Granted, the trainer may not want to bother, but who's to say your friend's horse, if in CONSISTENTLY 'good hands' wouldn't 'revert' to not just better behaviour, but a better mindset to go with it? I've seen some 'confirmed rogues' turned around.


Cheating is absolutely a learned behavior, however, the first steps will always originate in a horse that's learning. Always. When they have no knowledge of what is expected, they are trying to decide what is right - Horses do not know what is "Good" and "bad". They know what worked for them, what gave them rest, comfort, reward, etc. So when they are learning, if allowed to get away with even one, tiny, barely noticeable head toss, outward step, shoulder in, etc without correction - You bet they're gonna try it again. Tiny head toss turns into giraffe head toss. One step out of the corner turns into diving across the arena. Elevating the shoulders once turns into a rear. It all ends up the same way if left unchecked. It's just how it goes. Thankfully plenty of people catch it ahead of time before it becomes dangerous, but others are not so lucky.

Of course good trainers can make any horse a good horse. That's what I was saying before though - There's millions of "good" horses. Very few great horses. And even with that description, good and great are relative terms. What is good to one person is great to another, what is great to one is worthless to another. So in the end, it is just what works for that individual person and the horse. I've seen prospects in every discipline who have failed and become good at something else for a different owner. Even some in performance events, like reining and dressage, supposedly where all the great hands live - Just got too fried and too tired of their job. It's the nature of the beast, even if everything goes right.

Skip Brown used to tell me all the time, out of every twenty colts he'd get in for training, maybe one would be good enough to be an open show horse. And as three year olds when he had maybe ten remaining, you would be lucky to get two who would actually go out and win. And after that, there's no guarantee those horses would produce winners. Now that doesn't mean those other nineteen or so horses are worthless - Many of them taught kids to ride, became non pro horses, or amateur show horses. Not all horses flunk because they're bad, abused, or dangerous. Some just don't have that extra talent and spark and that's okay.


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## SorrelHorse

Sharpie said:


> I have to agree that I wouldn't touch that barrel horse with a 10 foot pole either. I'm not sure that what happened to that horse is an "incidental/accidental" poor outcome that might happen with any (usually inexperienced) trainer though. What happened to him was extremely long term, repetitive, and confusing over the course of years. I don't know if an individual horse could come back from that or not and suspect that it would really come down to "it depends." On the horse, the new situation, how long they tossed him out in a field to be a horse and decompress, a new handler/trainer, etc.
> 
> I think that most average riding horses in the US, and I think the world, or more on the green/minimally trained end than that one though, and I do think most of them could be made into "good citizens" as you said. I don't think they should necessarily all be counted out for having try either. I'm not talking abused horses, but just ones that got the average/cowboy training, which in my observation is based more on getting them moving under saddle quickly for sale than really teaching them to be good reliable pleasure mounts in the long term.
> 
> I wonder, would you have thought my horse a cheater? He certainly wasn't ever apathetic, but he wasn't much for trying either at the start. Freezing up and/or acting dumb doesn't really seem like a "cheat" to me since, in his case, it was out of fear.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there are definitely horses that pull dirty tricks that deserve a swat. In those cases the motivation isn't fear though, so it's a different matter to my mind and that is what I might consider "cheating."


I fear I may have accidentally perpetuated another bad stereotype on barrel horses with my story. That was not my intention and I just want to make that clear, it is a lovely sport with incredible horses - But it is also very fragile and incredibly easy to screw up as well.

I honestly have not seen your horse personally and can't really make an opinion. As I stated in my above reply, horses don't know good and bad usually - They just know what works for them and gets them reward, or rest. Eventually some learn through this, or perhaps fear like you said, to cheat. I personally don't treat fear based horses any differently. I don't care if they're afraid or not, they need to check in with me before they lose their marbles. Some people don't agree and don't like that method of thinking and that's perfectly okay - It's not the only way to do things, however for me it works and I have had great results on my own horses in training with it. 

I would be interested to follow your story though, any opportunity to see the progression of another horse is an opportunity to learn! I also wish you luck.


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## SorrelHorse

Saddlebag said:


> When a teen I rode a horse that tried every trick in the book with me. He preferred the security of the barn with other horses. Each time I rode he'd test me then finally quit and be fine. I didn't hit him, just outrode him. I wasn't able to ride for several weeks and boy he was full of testing me, all over again. Only this time he added rearing to the mix. About the third one I hollered for my friend to close the barn door. Instead she ran out and wrapped the whip around the two legs that were on the ground. He came down fast and trotted off when I asked. He suddenly became a well mannered horse.



Some horses respond beautifully to gentle hands, simply better handling, softness, and general patience - I am of the opinion though that one needs to know when to deliver some more serious consequences.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> ...I remember earlier in my riding journey i was riding a hrose who would periodically spook and do the 180, and he'd gotten me off 5 times! the owner of the barn said, "well did you spank him when he did that? he knows better than to do that".
> 
> i did not spank him, and I am not sure if that is a useful response. h m m ..


I'll throw this out FWIW, since I've adjusted my position on it:

Mia was a very spooky horse, but she was an utterly HONEST spooky horse. If she balked at something ahead, she was afraid. She was sufficiently 'willing' that she would forge ahead on 'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure', etc. If she put on the brakes, or more frequently, if she jumped sideways or spun around, she was scared.

And a scared horse doesn't get better by hitting them for being scared.

Enter Bandit. After 6 months riding him...he's a different horse. He will fake being scared when he is really just _'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure'_, etc. He also has times when he is SCARED - but when he is genuinely scared, he's more responsive than when he is just balking. Genuinely scared, he WANTS his rider to take charge. Balking...he's trying to take charge.

There is a different feel to his balks. In some ways, they imitate his fear - but he does the outward signs without the stiffening of his back, and there is something a little different about how he moves his head. It is hard to describe.

But when he does that, he needs to be pressured harder, not given relief. Because he isn't really afraid, and he is still entirely capable of learning and thinking - he's just rebelling.

Mia sometimes got ****ed at me, but I never felt like she was truly rebelling. Bandit will try to get out of doing what I want just because he doesn't want it. It isn't fear and it isn't 'you hurt my feelings'. Just a case of I don't want to and if it looks like I'm afraid them maybe he won't push me.

I'm thinking of switching to riding him in my old Aussie-style saddle. It fits him well enough, and my slick western saddle is excellent for a relaxed trail ride, but not so good for getting in a fight. It has a little too much room, a "slick seat" and a "slick fork", a "slick" is not what I need on a rebellious horse. With the Aussie-style saddle, I can get my legs around Bandit and tell him I'm going where he is going, but I'll make him very unhappy if he goes where I don't want to go.

It has me missing the two purebred Arabian mares I've owned. Both had their faults, and I can ride Bandit in places I could not have ridden Mia, but I miss the "_Oooohhhhh, what are WE doing TOGETHER today?_" attitude of the mares.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> I'll throw this out FWIW, since I've adjusted my position on it:
> 
> Mia was a very spooky horse, but she was an utterly HONEST spooky horse. If she balked at something ahead, she was afraid. She was sufficiently 'willing' that she would forge ahead on 'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure', etc. If she put on the brakes, or more frequently, if she jumped sideways or spun around, she was scared.
> 
> And a scared horse doesn't get better by hitting them for being scared.
> 
> Enter Bandit. After 6 months riding him...he's a different horse. He will fake being scared when he is really just _'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure'_, etc. He also has times when he is SCARED - but when he is genuinely scared, he's more responsive than when he is just balking. Genuinely scared, he WANTS his rider to take charge. Balking...he's trying to take charge.
> 
> There is a different feel to his balks. In some ways, they imitate his fear - but he does the outward signs without the stiffening of his back, and there is something a little different about how he moves his head. It is hard to describe.
> 
> But when he does that, he needs to be pressured harder, not given relief. Because he isn't really afraid, and he is still entirely capable of learning and thinking - he's just rebelling.
> 
> Mia sometimes got ****ed at me, but I never felt like she was truly rebelling. Bandit will try to get out of doing what I want just because he doesn't want it. It isn't fear and it isn't 'you hurt my feelings'. Just a case of I don't want to and if it looks like I'm afraid them maybe he won't push me.
> 
> I'm thinking of switching to riding him in my old Aussie-style saddle. It fits him well enough, and my slick western saddle is excellent for a relaxed trail ride, but not so good for getting in a fight. It has a little too much room, a "slick seat" and a "slick fork", a "slick" is not what I need on a rebellious horse. With the Aussie-style saddle, I can get my legs around Bandit and tell him I'm going where he is going, but I'll make him very unhappy if he goes where I don't want to go.
> 
> It has me missing the two purebred Arabian mares I've owned. Both had their faults, and I can ride Bandit in places I could not have ridden Mia, but I miss the "_Oooohhhhh, what are WE doing TOGETHER today?_" attitude of the mares.


I think that is all part of the learning process, both generally and individually. 

What I mean is this.

Generally: The more you ride, the better able you become as a rider to quickly recognize the difference between an “honest” horse and one that tends to like to play mind games with the rider or themselves. (IMO three different categories) 

Individually: The little things you described about Bandit’s reactions, the peculiarities that you said are hard to describe, that is you knowing how he communicates specifics (the two of you are bonding) and then responding appropriately to what he is saying. 

How I think this relates is that it is one thing when you have a horse who is playing mind games with the rider (this is insolence) and another altogether a horse who is getting into their own head and creating boogers, not to be difficult but because of the parts of the brain they tend to live in. Neither requires evidence of real panic.

The former is a bad attitude that requires discipline and the latter is one that requires teaching and putting the horse back primarily into the thinking part of the brain (logical side vs creative-reactionary side), however you choose to get them there. 

This is why both pushing them through it by getting them refocused on you works and why allowing them time to mentally work through it can also work. 

How you go about it is up to you and what works with your particular horse. Both means, if done properly with respect to the horse will end up with the horse in a thinking state of mind which is the goal.


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