# Oh look. I was unaware the tomb thumb had suddenly become cruelty



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Just a quick add-on, I know tomb thumbs CAN be cruel, but I never looked at them as so harsh as that. I've ridden a horse in one before and he's very soft and responsive to it. 

What I dislike most is the nasty way he approaches it.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

What is a tom thumb? Isn't it about the same as a snaffle but with cheek piece? How harsh is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rlcarnes (Jul 12, 2011)

Any bit is harsh in the wrong hands. I have seen horses mouths bleed from just a plain o-ring snaffle bit. If this person thinks that a tom-thumb bit is harsh look at some of the roping/ dressage or high level competition bits! Those bits are made for high level people competitors too not just the horse. Sounds like someone just had too much time on their hands... ?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Again I agree with you rl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

mbender said:


> What is a tom thumb? Isn't it about the same as a snaffle but with cheek piece? How harsh is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
It's a poorly designed "transition" bit. 

By no means is is close to a snaffle, as it's a bit with leverage. Mouthpiece makes no difference. 

They're not harsh to a horse that can be ridden completely neck reined with little to no pressure to the mouth. That's about it. When you start taking up contact, and direct reining, is when it gets off and confusing for the horse, because of the design. Any bits harsh in the wrong hands, and you just have to understand the mechanics of each different bit. 
Tom Thumbs really have no flexion to them, and are very straight shanked. Therefore, that makes them meant for more loose reined, neck reined stuff.

I partly agreed to that video. Yes, he kept ranting, but true snaffles are losing their meaning. I can say a lot about tiny, twisted wires, but if you never touch the horses mouth, then the bits just sitting there. Not much harm done. It all goes down to how each bit works, and where your horse is at in it's training to handle the different mechanics.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:lol::lol::lol:

If you want to get all sides, there are a few threads about our friend Tom Thumb

The Horse Forum - Search Results

Hopefully that link works


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

IMO, 

The real problem with Tom Thumbs is that people assume it's a mild bit because of the broken mouthpiece, not realizing that the shanks make it a leverage bit. Because it's true action isn't understood, and it's often misdescribed as a snaffle, it's a bit that's ripe for abuse.

Agree with the DejaVu's post above


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Read this:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/why-do-so-many-people-object-80794/

Mods, we just need to have a Tom Thumb sticky. Seems like there are a half dozen new (identical) TT threads a week...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I read this entire thread, and I get the impression that each person knows one bit that will work for every horse. I don't. That's why I have a tack room full of bits. My horses are all individuals. I had one tiny mouthed arab gelding that was obviously in pain if I used a true egg-butt snaffle. I think that his mouth was so tiny that the broken bit hit his teeth just laying there. He worked great in a cheap grazing curb bit. I had to bend the top of it so that it would fit. I have a horse that will throw you in the dirt if you use a curb bit. She rides fine in a snaffle for me; however, my son can't stop her in it. He rides her in a (holds breath and cringes) Tom thumb. She actually seemes to like him better than she likes me and my 45 years of riding experience. What an insult. My arab mare that I ride now works fine in a big, fat, egg-butt snaffle. My point is, different horses and different riders make for the need for lots of different bits.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't like this guy. He should try and ride a hot hanoverian on a jump course bitless, I bet he'll want a bit then when the horse is taking off on him. And also, I thought the point of a hackamore is to have some control, but to be w/o a bit. This guy really annoys me.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

lubylol said:


> I don't like this guy. He should try and ride a hot hanoverian on a jump course bitless, I bet he'll want a bit then when the horse is taking off on him. And also, I thought the point of a hackamore is to have some control, but to be w/o a bit. This guy really annoys me.


You'll never see him ride over a jumping course since he's against everything but trail riding pretty much.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bubba, the only problem with a TT sticky is....whose opinion of it will we use?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You could have the sticky as a discussion of TT bits. You don't need to have it as an "authority" on it. Just a place to discuss the TTs since it seems to pop up every other day.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah, nothing wrong with a healthy debate. It doesn't have to be a tutorial. I'm just tired of daily "Tomb Thumb" threads....no offense to those who post them. :wink:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Maybe as a sticky, we can post links to all the existing threads.


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## SeeingSpots (May 29, 2011)

I think its funny that he is against all of these bits. Except the snaffle. BUT he owns ALL of the bits he hates lol


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I like how he blocks all the users that have opposed him on his videos, and posted on my channel "Stay off my channel witch, go fly around your own barn."

Lolololol. Scared he might lose an argument, is he? I also like how in his comments he is flat out rude about it and does not provide any of the information calmy to defend himself.

*"The fact that you need a trainer with 50+ years experience proves you don't know **** about horses."*

^ This I love. I tmakes me rofl.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I just watched the video. Wish I hadn't. That guy sure is wordy--he could have said all the same things in a 30-second brief. He had a point as far as it goes, but he failed to acknowledge the whole _myriad_ of factors besides shank length...

I quite honestly want to show up at one of his clinics using a TT now, just for the reaction. :evil:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

News alert...............tom thumb bits use leverage! I be nobody ever knew that before, lol! :lol:

Glad I started riding in the days before the internet became so popular. Nobody ever told me the tom thumb or it's cousins the argentine snaffle and shank snaffle were evil. Therefore I have actually used the bits in question and LOVE them. I probably own 10 of them in various designs and lengths of shanks. I can ride every horse I have ever owned in a tom thumb-type bit. I can ride every horse I ever owned in almost any kind of bit, come to think of it. It seems once I get to know the horse, I can ride them in almost any bit I wish. Even the most evil bit of all- the tom thumb! 

I have only ridden ONE horse that preferred a solid mouthpiece, which is a Missouri Fox Trotter. I think she was trained to gait into a solid curb bit. She seems to like a solid feel. But other than her, I stick an argentine type snaffle on everything. Never met a horse that wouldn't ride in it well out on the trail. Now I do ride on a loose rein most of the time, but when trotting and cantering I will usually ride two handed with light contact with the evil tom thumb and they still do well. I guess my guys never got the memo! 

I also find it ironic that there are so many stronger contraptions out there- with twisted wire mouthpieces, gag bits, gag bits with cable nosebands, reining bits with lots of leverage, mule bits, heck even spade bits. But none catch as much flack as the poor tom thumb! It is the black sheep of the bit family. 

Why do people not complain about bits like this? I find these a lot scarier: 

http://www.prestoimages.net/store30/rd3558/3558_pd109585_th1.jpg

http://www.jwcinc.net/1174886746/bits/251072.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ1tUmvlmrBWrtmGRY0zVy-2hklzXQ6gXbRR7sEeMAzOxIaCfPy

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQuuFQ_2X_ZfCCfYnPzFWYluUGE5ni4wVUeT5co-_0ssWO4BjySg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbyL0gYLqA05t6ikyrcCjjRaPNHEnemstgZkEWPioRoK4u6g0O

http://www.kbsaddlery.com/images/no_7494_o_n.jpg

http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/10384d1249515943-little-lesson-walking-horse-bits-pleasure.jpg

My point is, why does the tom thumb get singled out? There are a lot harsher bits out there but you don't see people hating on them like you do the tom thumb. Why don't people hate on gag bits, twisted wire bits, correction ports, mule bits, bits with long shanks, etc???

I will always defend the tom thumb. Why? Because I have ridden in it and it works well for me and my horses. And compared to most western bits it is pretty mild.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh, they do hate on all those bits...incessently. I'll defend some of them, but not others.

My beef with the TT isn't necessarily its harshness but its imbalance and such. I very much like an AS, which many people see as the same bit. It's really not, though, except in the grossest of base mechanics. TT's are just made crappy, all the way around.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Oh, they do hate on all those bits...incessently. I'll defend some of them, but not others.
> 
> My beef with the TT isn't necessarily its harshness but its imbalance and such. I very much like an AS, which many people see as the same bit. It's really not, though, except in the grossest of base mechanics. TT's are just made crappy, all the way around.


If I could own only one or two bits, they would look something like this:

http://www.kotrading.com/ProductImages/classicequine/bitaa20sm.jpg

or

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpXHuVdKiNerrAEAsshoYtxbLdrVOZ05CS30piOdQk0YpQcb5m

I actually don't find a regular snaffle to have much use in my collection, although I do play with them from time to time. 

I really don't know where to draw the line from tom thumb to argentine snaffle. The argentine snaffles are usually a little nicer and have a little sweep to the shanks, sometimes a nicer curve to the mouthpiece, but I'm really not convinced they are that much different. I think of a tom thumb as a cheaper version of an argentine snaffle in all honesty. 

I also like a nice short shanked curb bit, something like this:

http://www.kotrading.com/productimages/bits/238316.jpg

but it seems like short shanked curbs are harder to find that long shanked ones! You would think it would be just the opposite.

So if I could only own a couple of bits, it would be a short shanked curb and an argentine snaffle. I know for breaking in a young horse you would also need a regular snaffle, but I really haven't made it to that point in my horsemanship yet.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

If you read the thread I posted earlier, I go on a lengthy rant/diatribe/exposé about the differences between a TT and AS (complete with images and a video, with a second one added to my Youtube page!). Besides proving that I have too much time on my hands, I think it shows, not so much a difference in "type" of bit, but in quality. Check out my posts there, just so I don't have to repeat myself (hey, it's 1:30 in the morning).

But you're right--there's no clear dividing line between the two. It's a continuum. And for example, I don't really know where on the spectrum to place a bit like this:










Or this:










They certainly have more than their fair share of TT characteristics, though they have the Pelham attachment characteristic of an AS.

I like the Reinsman Argentine you posted--less so the bit above it, as it looks tight at the mouthpiece/shank juncture, though I do love the free rings for the rein attachment. I really judge bits based on how well they're made and how well they move, though, as opposed to the name they're sold under.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Rick Gore conducts clinics??? Y'all are joking, right? Are there really people that pay to listen to this counterfeit, long-winded goober? If you're so desperate to learn horses that you'll pay money to get this man's advice, you're seriously in trouble. I have to admit I've watched his videos on youtube, but just because he's so ignorant. I like to watch stupid obnoxious people sometimes. It's like watching Jerry Springer; When you get done watching it, you're like," WOW that dude was wacky!!! What's wrong with him?" 

I guess maybe something happened to him that made him so passionate about defending horses. I'd bet money his parents whipped him and he feels compelled to stop abuse, bla bla bla. As mouthy as he is, he probably needed a whippin'. He takes obnoxious to a whole new level. I just want to choke him!

I'm sure a halter serves him just fine trail riding (although I've yet to see him ride). But if he actually tried to test his superior horsemanship skill at a competition or event of any kind, he'd show everyone what a fool he is. I'm sure he's against anything PERFORMANCE-RELATED though. (ironic, huh?)

I would love to see this wannabe try to match skills with any real trainer in a training or colt-starting contest, really any kind of contest (except a talking stupid contest). 

The bad part is, he's gonna get somebody hurt telling them they need to ride with a halter. Could someone please castrate him before he breeds some crazy woman and produces a new generation of super-retarded, aggressive-talking, wacko children? 

Wish I could buy him for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth....Now look....I'm the long-winded one now. Guess it's contagious.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Rick Gore conducts clinics??? Y'all are joking, right? Are there really people that pay to listen to this counterfeit, long-winded goober? If you're so desperate to learn horses that you'll pay money to get this man's advice, you're seriously in trouble. I have to admit I've watched his videos on youtube, but just because he's so ignorant. I like to watch stupid obnoxious people sometimes. It's like watching Jerry Springer; When you get done watching it, you're like," WOW that dude was wacky!!! What's wrong with him?"
> 
> I guess maybe something happened to him that made him so passionate about defending horses. I'd bet money his parents whipped him and he feels compelled to stop abuse, bla bla bla. As mouthy as he is, he probably needed a whippin'. He takes obnoxious to a whole new level. I just want to choke him!
> 
> ...


 
That was pretty much my entire train of thought through the entire video.

I can understand if he is passionate about protecting the horses, but he really should at elast learn a little more and be open to other ideas and opinions. Note how in the comments section of that video he talks about one of the people being close-minded.

How I love the irony.

And the fact that he sees to assume all trainers are bad. Again, look at the comments....trainers have been mentioned multiple times and he automatically has dismissed them as ignorant idiots.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I own a couple TT's and other similar bits with more curve to the shank. Personally, I don't see how the curve makes a difference. Both are leverage bits and apply the same force.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

The curve in the shanks changes how fast the horse feels cues.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

It does entirely depend on which Tomthumb you mean. In the UK a tom thumb is probably one of the mildest pelham bits that there is
This is the bit that pops into my head when someone says tomthumb


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Just wanted to add that in other parts of the world a Tom Thumb is NOT a leverage bit, it is more like a Fulmer.

In Oz this is a Tom Thumb:









But in the context of this video (American I believe) then yes it IS a leverage bit.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Sorry, nope, that's a fulmer. On my phone right now so can't post a pic but a Tom thumb has shorter, flatter cheeks with rounded edges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Ha, that's the second time you have pulled me up on my Tom Thumb definition WS. Happy to defer to you for a better pic me girl :wink:


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

My favorite bit once a horse is ready to move up from a snaffle is this one.. Joints and swivels everywhere. Short shanks too..


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

In Australia a tom thumb looks like this:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Appyt said:


> My favorite bit once a horse is ready to move up from a snaffle is this one.. Joints and swivels everywhere. Short shanks too..


Now this is the bit I would use!! It is jointed, but "sleeved" so that there is no "nutcracker" effect. 

Both the Tom Thumb and Argentine snaffle use leverage along with nutcracker....becoming more extreme than I would ever use. If I needed this dual effect, I need to step back and evaluate my basic training, IMO.

If I ever spend much time in a western saddle again, I will buy this bit.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I really like the look of that bit Appyt, who's the maker?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Francois-Gauthier-Collection-by-Metalab-Antique-Low-Port-Hinged-Futurity-Bit- I have found it for a good price on Horse.com, Statelinetack.com $25 there right now... chickssaddlery(when they have it in stock) etc.. Horseloverz has it as wel it is a bit higher there. It isn't always advertized with FG in the search. Low port search works usually. I have 3, my DIL has 2 and a friend I ride with has 2-3(I forget).... I have other bits, but I just use this for all my horses at this time. Love it.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Thanks! I have a gift certif for Chick's, maybe I'll luck out 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Chicks is having a sale on bits right now and it's not there.  Them stinkers. They have had it at different times tho...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

As far as riding trails in a halter; I challenge ANYBODY to ride the arab I just got back from riding on a trail in a halter. I would like to have time to get a good life insurance policy on them first. He must have never ridden a real horse.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I dunno. I'm of the opinion that just about any horse can be ridden in a halter--it may not be pretty, and it may lack finesse, and there might initially be a fair amount of lying back in the saddle and hauling....but with a good, effective rider the horse should soften up in time. Even a high-strung, hot, go-ey one. About the only horse I wouldn't attempt to ride in a snaffle would be a bad, confirmed bolter or a nasty bucker.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> I dunno. I'm of the opinion that just about any horse can be ridden in a halter--it may not be pretty, and it may lack finesse, and there might initially be a fair amount of lying back in the saddle and hauling....but with a good, effective rider the horse should soften up in time. Even a high-strung, hot, go-ey one. About the only horse I wouldn't attempt to ride in a snaffle would be a bad, confirmed bolter or a nasty bucker.


I tend to agree with this, as with most anything horse related it is really up to the captain of the ship and a lot of times we underestimate the power of the mind - if you approach things _confidently_, and with good timing and skill *most* horses will respond accordingly.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Agreed. The strongest horse I ever owned, a freight train of a 16h ASH born to jump, fast, went best on the trails in a halter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I've also found a halter to help a rushy horse relax. Same with the over-bitted horse.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NEWS FLASH!!!!

No bit in the world is cruel!!! 











These are cruel though.










When people stop blaming inanimate objects for their effect on a horse's mouth, then life will be good for horses.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry - there ARE some bits that are inherently painful or cruel in their design.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah, that's chainsaw chain. Now tell me there is no such thing as a cruel bit.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> Sorry - there ARE some bits that are inherently painful or cruel in their design.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this. But they don't jump into the horse's mouth of their own accord, human hands put them there.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Heh. Well, it _is_ reversible, and if you're riding most of the time with slack in the rein and only very slight contact when you need it, you're not actually going to _hurt_ the horse. Not that I would advocate trying.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Heh. Well, it _is_ reversible, and if you're riding most of the time with slack in the rein and only very slight contact when you need it, you're not actually going to _hurt_ the horse. Not that I would advocate trying.


 
Even if you did reverse it, you could still make the points dig into the horse's tongue if you pulled.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, right, but that gets into the Hands vs. Bit debate.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> As far as riding trails in a halter; I challenge ANYBODY to ride the arab I just got back from riding on a trail in a halter. I would like to have time to get a good life insurance policy on them first. He must have never ridden a real horse.


It all depends on the horse & rider. My Arabian mare is too much horse for me and a spooky ^%$# at times, but she behaves better and settles faster in a rope sidepull halter. I've tried several types of bits with her, but she seems offended by the very idea of a bit. I'd swear she looks at a bit and says, "Oh, so you want to fight today!"

My Appy/Arabian gelding can be ridden bitless, but he's more confident and calmer with a snaffle. Haven't tried him in a TT, and probably won't since a snaffle works well with him. 

Horses are not machines. They get a vote, and different horses vote differently.

As for harsh bits:

India, around 1892:










Greece, 400 BC:










From very long ago:










France, 1500s:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You know, some of those Baroque/Classical/Renaissance bits couldn't even be used until the horse had had several teeth pulled to accomodate the mouthpiece...

It's also noteworthy that Xenophon, a huge proponent of the second bit down, advocated riding with very light hands.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

If hands are soft enough to use that bit(chainsaw) why would they even consider it? I cannot imagine anyone with any brains ever saying "my horse loves this bit" Seriously, some things are just made to make money cuz there isn't any other reason for that thing.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I ride my hot headed arab in a snaffle. I just can't imagine using a halter. Who knows, she might do better.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You don't need hands to make some bits painful. Simply sitting on the bars of the horse's mouth...their own weight is all it takes to create pressure points and pain, IMO. Hands just compound the problem.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Appyt said:


> My favorite bit once a horse is ready to move up from a snaffle is this one.. Joints and swivels everywhere. Short shanks too..


That has a Billy Allen mouth piece. I've been using a similar bit for about a dozen years or so. Mine is a hand made by Darnell.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

IRIDE, I have a couple of other bits more similar to yours. This one has way more movable parts.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Appyt said:


> IRIDE, I have a couple of other bits more similar to yours. This one has way more movable parts.


My shanks swivel, the mouthpiece swivels, and the barrel in the center moves. What is left to move?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

May I ask why the differing shapes of the shanks? I know that the curved back ones are for grazing . I know that the distance from the end of the shank to the mouthpiece is what creates the pressure ratio, but what's with the one like Iride's, with multiple curves and recurves?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Keeps a horse from getting the shank in its mouth.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Tiny, actually what increases leverage is not just the length of the shanks, it is the ratio between the purchase and the shank.

As for the shape of the shanks on my bit, the swept back design lessens the effect of the length and it was made to resemble the old calvary bits.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

When I was a kid, I had a horse that I rode in a cheap grazing bit. (It was the only kind of bit that I knew about.) On occasion, she would flip the bit up, take it in her teeth, and then see how fast she could run. Scared me half to death on several occasions. She didn't buck me off, but she made me ride.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

iridehorses said:


> My shanks swivel, the mouthpiece swivels, and the barrel in the center moves. What is left to move?


Ah I didn't notice the mouth swivels too..  but but but ... mine is ported. :lol:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Appyt said:


> Ah I didn't notice the mouth swivels too..  but but but ... mine is ported. :lol:


Mine too but lower, the pic is just a a wrong angle for you to see it. LOL

Mine is all sweet iron and time has put a patina of rust on it, but yours is chrome and pretty.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> May I ask why the differing shapes of the shanks? *I know that the curved back ones are for grazing* . I know that the distance from the end of the shank to the mouthpiece is what creates the pressure ratio, but what's with the one like Iride's, with multiple curves and recurves?


I had asked earlier in this thread what's the difference between the staight shanks and the curved ones. Being for grazing makes more sense than that the horse gets the cue faster. I still didn't understand how they got the cue faster with a curved shank. I would have thought that they would feel it faster with a straight shank.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

> Mine too but lower, the pic is just a a wrong angle for you to see it. LOL
> 
> Mine is all sweet iron and time has put a patina of rust on it, but yours is chrome and pretty.


Mouth piece is sweet iron, shanks too and they are purty....  I'll have to get a pic of it "been used"


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

> I still didn't understand how they got the cue faster with a curved shank. I would have thought that they would feel it faster with a straight shank.


It may be hard to understand but it's true.. A curved shank gives a hint there is a cue coming when you pick up the reins. Straight doesn't.. I'll let someone else explain the dynamics, not my forte.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

A cavalry shank, like iridehorses', does not do anything to change the leverage ratio or severity--all that matters is the final distance/position between mouthpiece and reins, with the curvature of the shank in between those two points having no effect, except on the balance of the mouthpiece and a slightly different "feel."


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> A cavalry shank, like iridehorses', does not do anything to change the leverage ratio or severity--all that matters is the final distance/position between mouthpiece and reins, with the curvature of the shank in between those two points having no effect, except on the balance of the mouthpiece and a slightly different "feel."


The final distance from the rein rings to the mouth piece are only one part of the action but there is more to it. There is a ratio between the purchase and the shank that has to be considered. A purchase of 2" and a shank of 4" is a magnification of 2x while a purchase of 1" and a shank of 4" is a magnification of 4x. The shape of the shank does not change the ratio but, in fact offers a signal to the horse that the action of the bit is about to happen. The other thing to consider is the adjustment of the chin strap/chain. The tighter the chain, the faster that the leverage is felt on the jaw of the horse. I keep the chain loose enough so that I can get 2 fingers between a loose chain and my horse's jaw.

The shape of the shanks on my bit are more aesthetic then functional but the fact that they are relatively short (straight line from bottom ring to mouth) and swept back makes it less severe then a straight shank bit of the same ratio. The same amount of force is magnified by the same amount in either shank arrangement - meaning 3:1 in my bit - but my bit is better balanced, the chain may be looser, and the swept back design gives a warning to my horse that something is going to happen - hence I do not have to exert the same amount of pressure.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Right, but some were suggesting (unless I misinterpreted the posts) that there is a difference between the two shanks in the attached image, saying that they differ in speed of action and severity--but they do not.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Bubba13, I didn't pick up that impression. I noted that someone asked what is the purpose of the curves in shanks IRIDE posted. ? Oh well, it's all good.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ladies and Gents,

I closed this thread. it is very old and if we want to discuss bits, especially Tom Thumbs, lets start a new thread, ok? and discuss in a rational manner.


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