# Does licking and chewing mean the horse is "digesting a thought"?



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Something I was taught by a trainer is that when a horse is licking and chewing, it means it is thinking about and learning from what has just happened. I was told it was a good thing. But a number of people who specialize in studying horse behavior disagree. I tend to agree with one of the comments below - that it CAN mean, "_I figured out what is wanted of me so I can relax_", but that it can also be nothing more than "_I'm glad that scary thing is over!_"


I would respond that the trainer should read the body language of the horse *during* the lesson or exercise to ensure that the horse does not experience the activity as *too* scary. Of course it'll be a little concerned during a desensitization exercise, so it may well think, "Well, after doing it 5 times, that wasn't so scary after all." That's when it would cock its foot and lick and chew.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? As horses explore new surroundings as the roam grazing (if they do) they must be exposed to these kinds of stimuli all the time, and clearly they are equipped to process them.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

> The lick / chew reflex is actually an indicator of a release of stress or tension. In most instances it occurs when the horse has "survived" a stressful encounter and "lets down." In some cases the horse may have been concentrating on a problem, thinks it has found a solution and the lick / chew reflex indicates the release of concentration tension. Most often it merely indicates that some stressful pressure has ceased. .


^^^ is what I see every time the equine chiro/acupuncturist hits the sore spot and fixes it.

When my horses get something, I always make a big deal of it with a thumbs up, a "good job!" and sometimes I may jump up and down because I'm so excited they learned a new "thing". In turn, their ears go forward, their eyes light up and they may or may not lick and chew.

I always wonder if the the lick and chew is their "thank you" for me acknowledging their smartness, or if they are licking and chewing in the sense of wondering "what the hay is our fool human doing and let's just play along with her"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Watch the series of training videos by Stacy westfall.
There is no one answer, as it depends on the situation and how well that trainer reads ahrose, applying only enough pressure to get the desired response.
It does not ever include mindless chasing of the hrose, creating a flight response
All these training concepts, be it ATD, dominance, pressure /release from pressure, positive food rewards, ALL must be used correctly, tot he right degree only, using feel , timing and reading a horse correctly
Yes, used correctly it can indicate the horse understands a concept, thus feels relaxed, understanding those boundaries.
Either way, tension is released, be it by the horse relaxing,understanding a training concept, or a hrose with the 'my God, it is over' attitude
It is up tot he trainer to get the desired mental condition that is expressed by that chew and licking


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> I would respond that the trainer should read the body language of the horse *during* the lesson or exercise to ensure that the horse does not experience the activity as *too* scary. Of course it'll be a little concerned during a desensitization exercise...Is that necessarily a bad thing? ...


I guess it depends. I dislike what a lot of people do as desensitization. I understand approach and retreat. My horses do too. But approach to the point the horse feels the need to run, and we've approached too far. Should have retreated before we got to that stage.

It took almost no work at all to get Mia to a point where she would follow me. Before we ever did any round pen work, she already acted content to be with me. But it took YEARS of work, hard work, to get her to the level of "barely OK trail horse". With each of my horses, with a professional watching and giving constant guidance, the round pen work seemed to make them more anxious and less trusting. And I've seen no correlation between it and a horse who acts trusting in the open or under saddle.

As for licking and chewing, I really don't see much that indicates it has anything to do with learning, unless it is a possible indicator that I've created excessive stress. My favorite comment in the links I posted is this:

"_We're not trying to argue that the lick / chew response doesn't sometimes equate to, "Aha! I think I've got it!"...However when one listens to the total conversation (looks at the total horse) one tends to notice that the "puzzle solver" holds himself more erect (and proud?) when licking and chewing when the harried horse displays more of a "beaten down," relieved posture._" 

I suspect you agree. When working a horse in a round pen - if it is needed, and I'm not convinced it is - then it is critical to watch the "total horse". A horse who thinks, "_Cool, I've solved it!_" is very different than a horse who thinks, "_Glad THAT is over!_"

And to be honest, watching professionals give live demonstrations and watching videos, I mostly see "_Glad THAT is over!_" :evil:



> All these training concepts, be it ATD, dominance, pressure /release from pressure, positive food rewards, ALL must be used correctly, tot he right degree only, using feel , timing and reading a horse correctly


My problem, @*Smilie* , is that I have almost never seen any video or live demonstration that made me think the horse felt "_Cool, I've solved it!_". That includes demos by Parelli, Roberts and others. Yet people who have never had any formal training are encouraged to do it...

I keep coming back to the idea that horses learn trust the way humans do - by seeing someone behave and make decisions that are worthy of trust. If you want a horse to trust you on a trail, you are going to have to go out and challenge its trust, and demonstrate your worthiness there. Not in an arena, and certainly not in a round pen! And as quoted above: "_Why (from the horse's point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the horse, is at stake?_"


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that licking and chewing is how the horse releases tension it has been holding in its jaw. It may have been holding tension because of something being done to it during training that caused it anxiety or fear, or confusion. 

While the horse licks and chews and releases the tension is when it supposedly makes a connection as to what that whole stress producing experience was about, and how it earned its release; learning something. 
That is why the cowboy trainers say, "Let your horse soak on it", after imparting a lesson.

the more often a trainer allows a hrose time to lick and chew, time to soak on things, the more experienced the horse is with releasing its own tension, and the more likely it WILL release it easily, instead of holding onto it and allowing it to multiply.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...While the horse licks and chews and releases the tension is when it supposedly makes a connection as to what that whole stress producing experience was about, and how it earned its release; learning something...





> ...when an animal or a person is relatively relaxed and engaged in ordinary maintenance activities, such as feeding and resting, the parasympathetic nervous system...is more or less in control. *When an animal or a person is threatened or acutely stressed*, the nervous system switches into alert or fight or flight mode with the sympathetic nervous system. Pain, fear, or confusion can all turn on the sympathetic system. When that which turned on the sympathetic state resolves, nervous system control switches back to the more relaxed parasympathetic state...
> 
> ...This cluster of licking, chewing, and sometimes swallowing that you have asked about occurs right when switching back to parasympathetic after a period of sympathetic. - Sue M. McDonnell, PhD, is a certified applied animal behaviorist and the *founding head of the equine behavior program at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Veterinary Medicine*


The Science Behind 'Licking and Chewing' in Horses | TheHorse.com

Why would I want to cause the horse "Pain, fear or confusion" strong enough to invoke the "flight or flight" response? And the licking and chewing is an automatic response to lowered stress, not an indicator the horse has connected any dots. It only signifies the horse has entered a lower stress state. Not understanding.

I think it is probably a more consistent indicator of poor training than good.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, watch the video series I posted by Stacy Westfall ,starting with the first one.
Your concept that somehow round pen work, as shown in this video series,or done by any good trainer that uses it, is put out there as replacing trust and experience riding that horse out on trails
You must know that was never my view point, nor that of any other trainer that uses this concept correctly. I am quite sure you know that I ride my horses out, and never do round pen work after the first few rides on a colt, and why my round pen is over grown with weeds, as I no longer use it, not starting colts anymore
I don't think you can place Stacy into the group you label as bad trainers.
Your stance is sounding a lot like all the arguments against using Ask Tell and demand, by examples of using it incorrectly, thus throwing the entire baby out with the bathtub


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

bsms, giving the horse time is exactly my thought. It conveys that the horse is at least relaxing enough to release some tension; and oftentimes it is accompanied by an overall acceptance and calmness by the horse. Some horses will exhibit those same signs without chewing, and if you release the pressure, you're golden. Others will lick and chew while still being tense, and if you release then, you've taught them to be tense. 

It's a sign that one sees in MOST horses when they're past the 'OMG, what am I supposed to do?!' phase and onto the 'Ah, that's better' but it's by no means foolproof or present in every horse. Time is important. A stressed horse reacts. A thinking horse contemplates. There's a reason horsemen swear by leaving a horse saddled and tied to 'soak' after a training session, or to leave a horse alone in a pen to relax by himself. If you put him back in his stall or pasture, his attention is no longer on what has happened but on his herd and food. Letting the horse have time to work it out is important. 

A trainer I worked with did an experiment one summer. He started a dozen colts of similar breeding and all had the same basic handling as he'd bred and raised them. Six of them were returned to the pasture after each lesson. The other six were tied saddled to the arena fence or under a tree after each lesson. If he couldn't ride one day, he'd catch the 'soaking' group, saddle them, and just let them stand tied a few hours, then untie them and turn them out. The others were left in the field.

After 90 days, those six colts that had spent a lot of time soaking were BY FAR the better horses than the ones that had been trained and ridden exactly the same way, but had not had time standing. The difference was pretty clear-- the soaking group were softer, more relaxed, more willing, and making progress with every ride. Those colts were really nicely started and ready to go in any direction; your average rider would consider them finished horses. The others were a lot farther behind-- still having the occasional 'young horse stupid moment', lacking patience, spookier, and not nearly as soft or willing. He put another 45 days on that group, incorporating standing tied, before he considered those six ready to sell. I've seen similar results-- if I had ONE THING that was essential to making a good horse, it's a stout fence, pole, or tree where the horse can be tied and left alone. Yeah, I'll check on him through the window or around the corner and make sure he's ok, but it works wonders. It really does. It all comes back to the same thing-- whether standing to soak or licking/chewing-- giving the horse time to think things through on his end.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Smilie said:


> I don't think you can place Stacy into the group you label as bad trainers.
> Your stance is sounding a lot like all the arguments against using Ask Tell and demand, by examples of using it incorrectly, thus throwing the entire baby out with the bathtub


Nobody said Stacy was a bad trainer.... I'm confused.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> The Science Behind 'Licking and Chewing' in Horses | TheHorse.com
> 
> Why would I want to cause the horse "Pain, fear or confusion" strong enough to invoke the "flight or flight" response? And the licking and chewing is an automatic response to lowered stress, not an indicator the horse has connected any dots. It only signifies the horse has entered a lower stress state. Not understanding.
> 
> I think it is probably a more consistent indicator of poor training than good.


I am not talking about causing the horse PAIN. and if you cause the horse confusion, then it's your fault.

If I am round penning a hrose and he tries repeatedly to change directions without my asking, and I turn him back immediately, he may get stressed, or feel a moment of fear. But, he will learn that if stays going that one direction, that doesn't happen. and when he stays going that direction for a bit, I quit and let him soak on that. he licks and chews, releasing the tension he has held. When take back up the 'go this way' lesson, he won't try to take over. that's learning. / training. 

We teach the horse that he can go through stressful things and come out the other side , ok. and by doing it with respect and care to release the pressure when the horse is trying, we build his confidence that he can get himself out of scary situations.

When you raise your children, if you never allow them to experience risk, tension, and even failure and survival, they won't have the knowledge that it's all ok, that they can handle it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Yep. You make a spooky horse worse by sneaking around him. Go about your business and if he spooks, he spooks. Keep doing that same thing until he relaxes or you've taught him to spook.

This morning I was putting some fly spray on my new horse. I'm a klutz and dropped the brush on the concrete and he spooked straight up in the air at the clatter. Guess what? I spent the next 20 minutes dropping that brush over and over and over and over and over... not until he merely stood still, but until he stood still, licked and chewed, relaxed his ears, cocked a leg, and really relaxed. 

Did it make him a little more apprehensive for a few minutes? Yep. Did he learn from it? You bet. He wasn't hurt, he wasn't unsafe, and he realized that jumping around like an idiot didn't do him any good at all.

If your horse is buddy-sour, tie him up in a safe place and don't untie him until he's relaxed, standing with no pressure on the rope, and nearly asleep even if it takes all day. If you release him when he's dancing around, you taught him to do that. If he's changing directions on his own in the round pen, then get after him and keep him moving the way you want-- let him make the mistake, then correct it. It works far better than trying to prevent the mistake in the first place. Stress is not a bad thing-- especially when the horse learns that HE controls the stress. Stress does not equal fear or panic, but if you never stress the horse, you end up with one that falls apart at small things because he has no confidence in himself or you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Your stance is sounding a lot like all the arguments against using Ask Tell and demand, by examples of using it incorrectly, thus throwing the entire baby out with the bathtub


@Smilie, I agree with you that modest round pen work with a new horse can be helpful. I am also certain it is often sold as a replacement for earning trust bit by bit in the arena (first) and then outside.

These are examples that make me squeamish. And while round pen work is NOT the only place where people talk about the value of licking and chewing, it certainly is ONE place where they talk about it a lot:











I don't think I'm throwing the baby out with the bath water. Licking and chewing does NOT demonstrate learning, and join up does not indicate trust.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I am not talking about causing the horse PAIN. and if you cause the horse confusion, then it's your fault.
> 
> If I am round penning a hrose and he tries repeatedly to change directions without my asking, and I turn him back immediately, he may get stressed, or feel a moment of fear. But, he will learn that if stays going that one direction, that doesn't happen. and when he stays going that direction for a bit, I quit and let him soak on that. he licks and chews, releasing the tension he has held...
> 
> ...


I disagree. First...why do I want to teach the horse to do circles in a round pen? In what sense is "circles in a round pen" useful or helpful to a horse, or something they would find helpful in the real world? If you, the human, are the creator of tension, and you do it specifically to cause tension, then why would the horse learn trust, or anything other than appeasement?

I have taught my kids and now my grandkids how to handle things without ever chasing them in circles. Or creating artificial tension - Move or I will whip you - and then learning that acting submissive will result in my allowing them to rest. We do not teach the horse trust by making OURSELVES the scary object.

We can teach submission that way, and that is how I believe much of round pen work is done - to teach submission. And SOME submission is needed. But I have never seen any sign we build trust by first making ourselves scary, and then letting the horse's submissiveness buy him peace.

*And meanwhile, licking and chewing remains almost irrelevant to learning, since it only signals a release of tension - not WHY the tension is released.*


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It's not 'chasing them in circles' or 'move and I'll whip you.' It's about moving the horse's feet and not moving his feet. If you control the horse's feet, you control his mind. If you can make him move his feet when you want to, and stop those feet when you want to, then you are working in a safe, respectful partnership with the horse. If I'm working a horse in a round pen and he ducks in and decides he's going the other way, I'm not going to whip him, but I'm going to get in front of him, block him, and send him back the other direction until he realizes that when I want him to go that way, he needs to go that way. If I ask him to stop and stand and he won't, then I'll keep him moving until he wants to stop, then try again. When he stops and stands and relaxes, I'll reward him. He's learning that I can make him move and make him stop, but that nobody is hurting him and he controls whether he's under pressure or not. It's not fear-inducing in any way, but it makes a huge difference in whether that horse is safe to be around and ready to go on to the next part of his training, and also serves as a huge attitude adjustment for a problem horse who has learned how to bully people into doing or not doing what he wants, and that's a safety issue.

You can certainly do those things without a round pen, but the pen makes it easier. If someone's 'training' consists of chasing the horse around in circles, or whipping the horse if he doesn't move, that's doing it wrong. Do you sometimes need to pop a disrespectful horse on the hip with the end of the rope or stick? Yeah, if he's really belligerant, but that's well after the horse was given other opportunities to do what was asked and ignored them. At that point 'he ran into the stick I was moving' because he didn't care enough to follow the cue. Next time, he'll move before I get to that point, and that's it-- no fight, no stress, lesson learned. I don't want a submissive horse-- I want a confident, thinking, alert, happy horse who is respectful and safe.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I believe licking and chewing is a sign of releasing tension and learning a new skill and that the two, no matter how diligent we are at trying to make a soft horse, go hand in hand.

Learning a new skill is stressful for horse and human. That doesn't mean the horse is scared out of its mind, but the learning of something new is stressful.

Think of the first time you got behind the wheel of a car. It was exciting yet stressful. Your first professional job out of college. Hell, the first week was mind numbingly stressful. A horse being introduced to the saddle the first time is stressful. But if you take it slow the horse does realize it is not going to hurt or kill them, they will relax by licking and chewing. So they released the tension AND learn.

When teaching my Arab horse to back under saddle, the first try was a rock back. All I wanted was to feel him shift his weight back. When I felt that slight little try, I released the reins and legs and let him stand there. I got a yawn while I was all scartching and loving on him for a minute to let the thought sink in. I tried again and got a step back. Released immediately, I got the lip smacking and a mumble to boot. Was he tense? He didn't feel rigid, and when the Arab gets tense it like sitting on a stiff wood fence. Did he learn? Yes he did. What then caused the smacking, licking, chewing mumbling? Learning? Stress? Or the combination?

As for round penning, it is a good place for the human to learn how to handle their body to get the horse to move without the whip. An open minded individual will experiment a wee bit with their body position to see how the horse responds. When the two partners are in sync, it can be a sweet dance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> It's not 'chasing them in circles' or 'move and I'll whip you.' It's about moving the horse's feet and not moving his feet. If you control the horse's feet, you control his mind. If you can make him move his feet when you want to, and stop those feet when you want to, then you are working in a safe, respectful partnership with the horse...


I've watched people control the horse's feet...but without creating anything like a respectful partnership with the horse.

And if the goal is control of the mind, then it isn't a partnership at all. It is simple submission. And yes, I fully agree SOME submission is needed for safety and for the productive use of the horse.

But submission and trust are two very different things. Anyone can get Cowboy to follow meekly and lick and chew - IF they can trick him into going into a round pen. He is terrified of round pens, and has obviously learned total submission is the only way to protect himself. In a round pen, he is totally submissive. Open the gate, and he'll explode through it, and be very wary of you for weeks to come.

"I believe licking and chewing is a sign of releasing tension and learning a new skill..."- @*sarahfromsc* 

To the first, behaviorists agree with you. It is the "learning a new skill" part where they disagree. They CAN take place together. But it is very easy to get "lick & chew" with nothing useful learned.



> We're not trying to argue that the lick / chew response doesn't sometimes equate to, "Aha! I think I've got it!" When setting up horse puzzles we often see a horse curiously engaged in a log maze or some other challenge, he figures it out and then licks and chews. However when one listens to the total conversation (looks at the total horse) one tends to notice that the "puzzle solver" holds himself more erect (and proud?) when licking and chewing when the harried horse displays more of a "beaten down," relieved posture.
> 
> Horse Training Mythbusters, P.2


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Nobody said Stacy was a bad trainer.... I'm confused.


 She does use that lick and chew, in the right time, thus my point is, all trainers that use it,reading a horse are not bad trainers that take short cuts, as per one post in this thread suggested.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

"To the first, behaviorists agree with you. It is the "learning a new skill" part where they disagree. They CAN take place together. But it is very easy to get "lick & chew" with nothing useful learned." @bsms

True. Mine lick and chew after a 'stressful' night on pasture while waiting at the gate for breakfast and a nap in their stalls. They learned nothing new, nor were they stressed.

However, a behavior I noticed while working on an Arab breeding from 100 years ago was when foals was corrected hard by any one of the mommas, he would run away and lick and chew. He learned, don't be a **** ant to your elders.. Was he stressed? Probably by the swift kick or bite he received, but he learned. So the licking chewing, I believe was due to both. And the foal never messed with the mommas again ......


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> @Smilie, I agree with you that modest round pen work with a new horse can be helpful. I am also certain it is often sold as a replacement for earning trust bit by bit in the arena (first) and then outside.
> 
> These are examples that make me squeamish. And while round pen work is NOT the only place where people talk about the value of licking and chewing, it certainly is ONE place where they talk about it a lot:
> 
> ...


Well, you picked two trainers that I have no use for, so tell me what you find offensive in Stacy;s video, when she uses that lick and chew to read ahorse, so we have some common ground to discuss


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> I disagree. First...why do I want to teach the horse to do circles in a round pen? In what sense is "circles in a round pen" useful or helpful to a horse, or something they would find helpful in the real world? If you, the human, are the creator of tension, and you do it specifically to cause tension, then why would the horse learn trust, or anything other than appeasement?
> 
> I have taught my kids and now my grandkids how to handle things without ever chasing them in circles. Or creating artificial tension - Move or I will whip you - and then learning that acting submissive will result in my allowing them to rest. We do not teach the horse trust by making OURSELVES the scary object.
> 
> ...


If you have an un trained horse, are you going to try and do some ground work out in the wide open spaces?
The round pen, is atool, for short term putting some very basic fundamentals on a horse, BEFORE he is saddled and ridden. I think you bought both of your hroses broke, whether well broke or green, they had been ridden
If you are scaring the horse, then you are using round pen work incorrectly.
Do you see where you are going, with this argument-same direction as taking ATD to the extreme, implying it means force or aggression
Why use the lick and chew ?, because it is body language, same as how a horse uses his tail, his ears, his body posture, and various vocal sounds 
You drive a horse, control his direction, not to the point of scaring him, but to the point that he sees you comparable to a dominant horse, and you read how willingly he complies, to adjust the degree of drive or energy that you use
You are also always thinking of a broke hrose, versus one never really yet taught boundaries
I don't know about you, but I learned to put some of these fundamentals on a colt, before riding him for the first time. In the beginning, I used to just saddle a colt a time or two, let him eat with a bit in his mouth, twice a day, for a few days, and then get on and ride. Never used to mind coming off much in those days!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Obviously, Cowboy was round penned incorrectly (now I am using round pen as a verb! Must be going NH! )
You also had a horse afraid of men in Black cowboy hats
We have spoken of negative associations, with actual obstacles, entities,then fear that have nothing to do with that obstacle itself, but by what happened near/in it
My horses trust me. Don't think Smilie or any other hrose I have ridden for awhile, licked their lips or chewed in years, even though perhaps they did in those few round pen sessions years ago. To tell you the truth, I can't remember
It certainly has not scared them, they ride out with trust I never lunge ahorse that is broke before riding, including when they have been tied up all night, in the mountains, then riding out in pre dawn, with wind blowing and at times, elk bugling.
When you can control the direction of a horse, using your body language, showing him that he can;t change directions whenever he wants to, he starts to see you as the better hrose, for lack of more fitting word at the moment
It is 30 degrees out, and I just finished riding Charlie some. That is hot for Alberta, so my brain is a bit slow!
How is that so different, then showing a horse he has to respect your personal space?

As for the grandkids, I don't think they are going to leave if you teach them something in wide open spaces-not until they get the keys to your car, anyways!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think you might have referenced the same site, BSMS, but perhaps this paragraph helps? Maybe not, for you

'Misconceptions and mistakes aside, the lick / chew reflex can be used as a reliable indicator that can be valuable for training. Licking and chewing consistently indicates that the horse has just changed from a state of higher anxiety to a state of lower anxiety. By recognizing this emotional change during quiet encounters with the horse (as opposed to running the horse to distress) we can determine if the horse is accepting of the stimulus, activities or objects being presented.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> If you have an un trained horse, are you going to try and do some ground work out in the wide open spaces?
> The round pen, is atool, for short term putting some very basic fundamentals on a horse, BEFORE he is saddled and ridden...
> 
> ...why use the lick and chew ?, because it is body language, same as how a horse uses his tail, his ears, his body posture, and various vocal sounds
> ...


Of course some work is going to be done. I bought one horse totally unridden (Lilly) and had her trained. And the lady who trained her later gave me lessons in round penning a new horse.

"Lick & Chew" is NOT body language. At least, not in any certain sense. It tells us a horse has felt significant stress, and now feels less. That is all.

The title of this thread is based on what I was taught when I took round pen lessons, and while I watched Lilly being trained prior to her first ride:

*Does licking and chewing mean the horse is "digesting a thought"?*

I was told it MEANT the horse had learned the lesson and was putting it into long term memory. But the people who study behavior say that is not true. They say it is like me checking my speedometer and sighing after seeing a cop car.

No particular lesson. And no, seeing a cop car does not bring me terror or overwhelming stress. But it gives me concern, at least.

I also wish to repeat that my own belief is that licking and chewing CAN mean something good, depending on the total picture. If I ask Bandit to do something he isn't sure he can do, and he is successful, he may lick & chew for a moment. And get light on the front end, and curve his neck, and act quite proud of himself. All good. He's processing something good: "_I didn't know if I could do it, but I did! I DID it! I'm such a fine horse!_"

And at times like that, I'll scratch his neck and tell him he is "_Bandit the Brave! Bandit the Bold! Bandit the Strong!_" And Bandit, with equine modesty, agrees!

But I remember looking, during a lesson given by an experienced local professional, at a horse with heaving sides, sweating hard, head down, licking and chewing - and being told I had done well. That I was teaching the horse "trust".



Smilie said:


> Well, you picked two trainers that I have no use for, so tell me what you find offensive in Stacy;s video, when she uses that lick and chew to read ahorse, so we have some common ground to discuss


I picked two famous trainers with many followers. I will download and watch Stacy's video sometime during the next day or so. My Internet is leisurely at best, and we're starting the time of day when it crawls.

But again: For years, I was taught that licking & chewing MEANS the horse is learning, and "digesting its lesson". My point is not that it is total evil, but that it is frequently misinterpreted. I don't panic if my horse licks & chews after something, but neither do I assume it means he learned anything good. He isn't digesting a thought. He is just going from a time of stress to a time of lower stress. 

That may be good: Bandit doing something that challenged him. Or bad: Cowboy scared in ANY round pen.

I also want to emphasize NO ONE has to agree with my conclusions. I'm a total nobody in training. I wanted to present some opposing views by some people who study horse behavior professionally. And anyone can disagree with them, too! It is OK. I disagree with a number of scientists and studies. But I also like thinking about WHY I have come to certain conclusions. And sometimes, after years of thinking something, I change my mind or views...


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

"It tells us a horse has felt significant stress, and now feels less. That is all." @bsms. I do agree it is a way for a horse to show us they are relieving tension or stress. But, my horses will lick and chew when I open the back door in the morning to feed. They have been on pasture all night, so I am assuming they haven't been stressed. Binging on green grass maybe, but I can't imagine that is stressful. Yet there they are staring me down like I was a bale of alfalfa, licking and chewing.

So I agree with you that it can be a tension release, but I think horses lick and chew for more than that reason alone. And it is our job as owners to figure out why they lick and chew under all the different scenarios we present to them.

PS. Even before I open the back basement door to feed, I step out on the 30x40 party deck with my first cup of coffe (I am not human until that first cup by the way), in the old ratty PJs and some flip flops. As I stand there gazing down at them with the heavenly sent coffe, the Dales whinnies in frustration at my lack of movement, but then licks and chews. The Arab mumbles deeply, muuuuummmmmmuuuummmm, then licks and chews. Maybe licking and chewing can also be a sign of impatience .....lololol....I don't know, I don't speak horse well, nor do I think like one.

Food for thought!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My horses are on dry lot. They can see into the house via the sliding glass door. My son & his family are living with us now, and he leaves for work before 6 AM. He tries to be discrete, but he says at the smallest sign of light, all three horses are staring in with Border Collie intensity, thru the back door...and he HAS to go feed them hay. "_Their will is too strong_..."

:>)


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I think they have 'puppy dog eyes' that are better than puppy dogs!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The dry lott where both Smilie and Charlie spend the night, is visible from my back door and also from the patio deck off our kitchen
Hubby goes out, and usually nothing (they have slow feeder hay nets all night )
I only need to get as far as the dog dish outside the back door, and a chorus of whinnies great me
Back tot he licking and chewing. Anyone that runs a horse until he is dripping sweat (an aggressive horse being retrained, being an exception) is using that entire concept wrong
Licking and chewing is also not like the submissive teeth clacking foals will make, often just greeting an adult or older horse they do not know
Okay, don't call it body language, and if that licking and chewing is loud enough, add it tot he vocal language of Equus
Sometimes when I dismount Charlie, she gives me a soft nicker. I can only conclude she likes to see me, versus just knowing I am on her .
If the horse is not stressed out perhaps chews after completing a task, is standing there relaxed, what is the big deal?
I don't believe in working a horse until he chews or licks his lips, and most times in those early sessions, I had many young horses that never did the chewing or licking
If one happens to engage in that, after a work session, is not stressed,is relaxed, ends on a happy note, then I don't agonize over it.
I can see where your negative impressions come from BSMS, as It seems all of your hroses were started by bad trainers for some reason or another, that used these various tools, including a round pen incorrectly


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> I disagree. First...*why do I want to teach the horse to do circles in a round pen? *In what sense is "circles in a round pen" useful or helpful to a horse, or something they would find helpful in the real world? If you, the human, are the creator of tension, and you do it specifically to cause tension, then why would the horse learn trust, or anything other than appeasement?
> 
> Round penning is NOT NOT NOT about teaching a horse to go in circles! that's absurd.
> It's about getting a hrose to pay attention, to listen to your body language, to transition up and down at your request and do it without getting upset. It's about being able to ask your horse to move away from you without mentally 'leaving' you . It's about allowing a hrose a bit of expression of his opinion in a safe manner, it's about pushing AND drawing.
> ...



my comments in brown.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The subject of THIS thread is licking and chewing, and what does it mean. I posted it because I think the consensus of animal behaviorists is that it doesn't really mean what people often says it means, and that is independent of round pens.

It is challenging NH dogma. It is meant to. Folks will have to decide how to view licking & chewing, by THEIR horses, on their own. At a minimum, though, I think it is fair to say it ought to be viewed as just one part of the equation, and that the rider/trainer needs to take into account the total horse.

And if you hear someone on a video saying, "_See him licking and chewing? He's thinking, this person is someone I ought to trust_"...view it with skepticism. It *MAY* mean nothing more than "_That jerk had finally stopped tormenting me!_"


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think the article is correct that horses _can_ show licking and chewing as an indicator that they were recently stressed. I've often seen horses do it more similarly to how a foal does it, which I've always thought was similar to a dog rolling over on his belly. "I'm submissive, don't hurt me." 
Some horses pull this out very fast, before you even have asked them to do anything. Just like some dogs flop and roll when you approach just to be safe. I've also seen horses that were very willing, full of try and just never did the behavior. 

One of my horses will lick and chew a lot if she scares herself. Like if she knocked over her water bucket she would lick and chew after startling at it.
My other mare I have never seen lick and chew. She just doesn't know that behavior.

One thing I think the article is wrong about is that the behavior means a certain level of stress has happened, and should be avoided. 
I might see it in some horses just because you pulled them out of their herd and asked them to back up two steps, gently. Or in a horse that you turned loose in an arena and they ran around for awhile alone and then stopped to lick and chew. Just like some horses chomping a bit might be very stressed out, while others might chomp while in a mellow state of mind just as a sort of habitual pacifier.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

wHile I agree with the above, The way a foal clacks his teeth,is not the same, as when a horse either chews or licks his lips, when he feels less stressed,either because he got a training concept, or he feels less stressed. Foals will do that teeth clacking when they meet an older hrose, to show submission
It is like they are kinda saying, hey, I;m a baby and no threat, so be nice-please'


Foal clacking teeth insight


http://www.thehorse.com/articles/34963/why-do-young-horses-champ-their-mouths


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

From the above Horse.com article:


> A displacement behavior is one seen out of context in a given situation. It’s something an animal might do when he is facing a motivational conflict, such as wanting to perform two incompatible behaviors (e.g., approach-avoidance of something frightening), or during times of frustration when given two incompatible signals from a trainer, or during times of social tension. Displacement behaviors are self-directed and believed to be calming or soothing. Some think champing as a displacement behavior might be self-soothing, because it seems to mime mutual grooming, nursing, or grazing...


So why do we believe licking and chewing are not displacement behaviors, but champing is? My perspective is that licking and chewing might be a more adult-ish version of champing. I've seen at least several adults that still champ rather than lick and chew. 

Regardless, I view licking and chewing not as something to try to get a horse to do, as many trainers do. I've heard people say they need to work a horse on something
until he licks and chews. Rather, I view licking and chewing as informational. If I see a horse do the behavior (or champing), I think the horse has been stressed. Using other indicators in the horse, I decide if the horse seems mildly stressed or majorly. If I was the one stressing the horse, I see licking and chewing as a signal to back off and let the horse have a break even if his stress level seems somewhat minor. Since I rarely have a horse exhibit this behavior, that does not become a problem.

I've seen that some trainers appear to have their horses lick and chew a lot. It seems quite possible that horses can be taught by trainers to lick and chew because they learn pressure will be released when they do. To me it would not make sense if a horse does the behavior a lot to think of it as indicating learning progress. Horses are very quick to learn what behaviors will relieve pressure.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Very interesting and highly controversial topic. Out of the initial post, this link was turned up that is a collection of opinions by respected professionals about licking and chewing plus round penning in general.

The last entry gets to the heart of my objections about becoming a predator in the round pen.

https://friendshiptraining.org/documents/Critique_NATURAL_HORSEMANSHIP.pdf

*Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in
Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied
Ethology. He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and
is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and
its consequences for traini*ng.


It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other
behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear
responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a
round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse's memory -
the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans.
The trouble is, these associations are not always evident
immediately, they come back to "haunt" the relationship at a later
point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses
should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we
avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when
the horse is fearful.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, any tool used incorrectly can be bad.
I am still waiting to here actual discussion , based on how Stacy Westfall is using that round pen work starting that young stallion
I see no fear, I see a person reading ahrose correctly, using that driving, far as direction ect, to establish the relationship between her and that young stallion, and alternating it with low key mental work
No, you do not work towards getting that licking and chewing, and have seldom if ever seen it in one of the horses I started, using a round pen
You can use it as a sign that the horse was in a higher stress level, and is now more relaxed
It can be as simple as teaching a horse your personal space, flapping your elbows, as she does atone point, with the horse then respecting that space, understanding it, and perhaps licking his lips
I never see it on my broke horses, so am not surprised at those here who have never started colts from square one, never having at least observed that action
To be clear, I see no purpose in chasing a horse mindlessly at any point, trying to evoke a lick and chew response


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I searched YouTube for Stacy using a round pen and did not find. If you have a link, I'd like to watch.

A link of Hempfling using his "square" pen was posted on another thread. I've watched it a few times and have come to the conclusion from the articles read that he is using a modified form of join up and that the horse is running "from" him in aversion, and of course does begin to learn that looking at, moving towards, and finally following the predator presenting the pressure is the only way out of the pressure as fleeing has been discovered to be not possible.

This appears to me to be another example disscussed in the examples in the link I posted where join up was discussed, along with licking and chewing.

Here's the Hempfling video.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Go further back in this htread, and you will find in her her series on starting that colt

Here you go, Hondo. Those videos are on a thread I posted a little ways down in the training forum. You will need to watch the entire series, to get to her round pen work, and understand her entire program
I think you would also really enjoy the videos I posted, featuring Chris Irvine, as he really goes into your posture in relating to a horse, right from the way you pat him. I do explore all avenues of horse training, and am not just by the rules,, without taking the horse;'s views in perspective

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stacy-westfall-series-videos-evaluating-training-765569/


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have watched some of his videos, and really, there is nothing different as how he uses his body language, and someone that uses round pen work correctly
I find some of his stuff too 'musical, and in one video I watched, he actually let ahorse kick out in his direction. 
He is nothing more then a German version of what is known as a 'horse whisperer', by many, with some, as in all things being very good and some not





[/QUOTE]


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok. I watched Stacey about half way through the 3rd section where Jac was doing a lot of rearing.

Now I'm not about to criticize Stacey Westfall in any way shape or form. I believe she truly cares about horses, is very knowledgeable about them, and her methods have won her prizes, money, and great acclaim.

That said, her methods are not for me. I do believe I see considerable interaction between predator and prey with no means of escape for the prey. Her methods and Hempfling's are to me for all purposes identical. Again, not for me.

I do not want my horse, or any horse, to have a memory of me causing them fear. I just don't and I ain't gonna, except by accident as in the flysheet fiasco.

Here on the ranch, all newborn babies are hugged and held by many on the first or first few days of birth. The first I ever held is about 1 YO now and approaches me happily when I visit the herd.

Star was the same 3 years ago when I came. He is now in my field and is almost a rehab case as a result of well meaning NH psychological warfare. He was fearful about me haltering him at first, but after the flysheet fiasco where I was standing beside the monster that had swallowed Hondo except for his feet and head, he will not let me halter him.....yet.

I have been working with him in the open 60 acre field. I had to first finally be able to "pet" the whiskers only on his muzzle and finally work to his lips and then forehead. Without any restraints on his freedom to escape at anytime he feels the need.

That is the approach I will continue. He will eventually allow me to halter him again but without any fear. It'll take time and any audience watching would soon fall fast asleep.

If there was a large pasture area that was safe for the stallion, with a favored herd mate or two, that is the method I would prefer with him, although I would rather work with one that was gentled from birth.

To stay on topic, I did notice the stallion licking and chewing a few times. None of the horses in my care have ever displayed the licking and chewing behavior that I've witnessed.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm currently in the camp that horses can be desensitized to almost anything as long as it doesn't hurt them. 

Some people call this the "thinking side of the brain". The horse is not actively trying to get out of the situation and is comfortable enough to lower their head, cock a leg and just hang out. 

I don't think that every lick and chew is thinking. When I put a bit in my horse's mouth and they lick and chew I don't assume they are thinking about what it means to have a bit in their mouth. It could be relief that the scary process is over, or it could mean they are just playing around with something in their mouth. Maybe they look forward to a ride, or are just taking a rest before they get "ridden". 

In my world you see those horses that take a cat nap whenever they get the chance, because the next 30 minutes might be really hard work. A lick and chew might mean the horse sees the opportunity to take a break and relax for a while. I think this is one of the best rewards you can give a horse that is asked to work hard, relaxation.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i admit to only having watched the first video of Stacy's, and the one where she does some initial ground work, so have to watch the third one to comment on it correctly.
The entire great thing about training, trainers, horses, is that you can pick and chose as to which methods you feel comfortable using. If they produce a happy willing horse, that is healthy in both mind and body, then it is a win, win situation
My foals were certainly people friendly, happy and remained that way, even after entering formal trailing as older horses
Stacy is also working with a young stallion, so you really can't compare that to just working with an older gelding
I have watched Stacy in person, several times, when she has come to the Mane Event. I have seen what I like, but then again, that is a snap shot in time
I know there is a reining trainer in our area, that I would not send a horse to that I dis liked, let alone any of my horses that I love

Einstein and I , just visiting some of the foals



A long time ago, my youngest son, at two , with one of the foals



another foal, who was extremely people orientated



And, just for interest sake, this is a feral foal I got to come right up to me. His herd was there, where we parked to un load our horses. That herd had a mature stallion, an young stallion and mares


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, so this is what the discussion was about, concerning photo bucket!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Don't know what the deal is, butt photobucket isn't working for me with anybody's posts. Seems to indicate that 100% of 3rd party hosting is used up.

I'm thinking some may need to be deleted before more can be added. I just upload most stuff directly from my computer.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-support-help-desk/photobucket-now-charging-$400-yr-3rd-764537/

Don't know if anything has changed in the last few days.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

*round penning a stallion!*


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Guess I'll have to learn how to up load pictures directly from my computer !
Can anyone direct me to the info, far as up loading directly from my e albums?
Yea, I was always the one that rather looked down the microscope, versus becoming more computer savvy!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> *round penning a stallion!*
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvQHZzys4BE


Okay, that horse has been liberty trained, so hardly an example of starting a young stallion, and that person obviously knows that stallion very well, or he would not be interacting with him that way
Experienced horse people can recognize that it is actually is a video of a horse very well trained, doing liberty work, and who happens to be a stallion, with the guy doing some tongue in cheek demo.
Unfortunately, it shows some un safe practices, were that truly a stallion hardly handled,not knowing boundaries, versus one that is just another example, but different, Of Stacy's tackless reining demo


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just to clarify-yes, you can develop that level of trust, even with a stallion. You just have to attend Cavalia, where they use stallions and geldings for their liberty work
John Lyons used to ride Bright Zip with nothing on his head,working with people riding mares (he was a stallion 
You can see the clicker basic training on that stud, and the food rewards given.
That is all impressive, and shows what can eventually be achieved, but has zero to do with round pen work on ayoung stallion, not trained beyond being led by a halter
If that man were to try that on a young stallion not trained to the level of his ,with us not knowing what techniques he used,in the beginning, beyond eventual liberty work, do you think that would work?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The vid was made for, as you say, tongue in cheek purposes. I chuckled when he let the horse do his round penning on the exterior so he could feel safe about escape if he needed to.

I thought I noticed the treats but saw no licking and chewing.

It would surely be interesting to see how the guy would approach a truly wild unhandled stallion plus the methods used on training the horse in the vid.

But still, I thought the video was entertaining and and even somewhat educational. And in some ways impressive.

The unsafe practice that I think you're talking about is something I've done fairly often. But then I'm a risk taker or I would not have begun riding as a 72 YO.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When it comes to training methods, it helps to remember they are shaped by our goals and our philosophy of riding - the latter defining what we feel we must do to be morally comfortable in riding. 

As a new rider, I was puzzled when VS Littauer started off his book on how to ride with a discussion of the horse's personality, and then spent time discussing what he was comfortable asking a horse to do, and what he as a rider needed to be doing in response. Surely he should start with position, what cues to give, etc! But as I've continued riding, I realize his position, cues, and entire system was founded on his goals and moral qualms about riding.

I watched a video of an English riding discussing 'proper' position last night and wanted to pull her off her horse. It might have been 'proper' - or at least safe enough - on a horse who was very obedient, but it would have put her at high risk riding Bandit yesterday. Not that Bandit did anything that bothered me. After 2 weeks in the corral with an injury, he did a spectacular, "Mia-level" "OMG Crouch", going from a jog to a total stop with his back dropping like a stone, his front legs spread apart - a strong startle reaction.

I was riding more "Old Cowboy" style, so momentum merely put me deeper in my seat and stirrups, letting me ask Bandit what it was. And after a second or two, Bandit realized he didn't know, so he shook the tension out of his body and we went on. Had I been riding with a bent leg, short stirrup, heel way back, gripping with the knee - well, I'd have needed to have a death grip with my knee, and who wants to ride 100% of the time like that?

That is a position comment, but it is also a philosophy comment. My approach to riding is based on riding horses with minimal training, or bad habits, or who WILL startle hard at times. It was Bandit's first in months, but a face-forward tumble onto paved road might have ended my riding for good. My approach to riding is based on giving the horse freedom provided that freedom doesn't become unsafe, and teaching the horse in increments HOW to think correctly while we ride. It accepts startles, but rejects bolts and spins and bucks. It accepts a horse saying, "This is too scary" or "This will hurt my feet". But if you accept the idea that the horse can and should reject your will at times, or that he might startle, briefly but hard, then your position needs to help you stay on - not just on an obedient horse, but one making some hard moves!

And if I want to stay healthy while doing that on paved roads and in rocky desert, I need to value security pretty high.

On a forum I rarely read and don't post, there was a discussion on whips and whipping horses. While there was talk about the whip just being an extension of the arm, etc, it was also pretty obvious that the whip was there...well, to whip the horse. Particularly when "Demanding" with one's heel isn't enough to get quick obedience. IOW, to punish the horse for being too slow to change his gait when cued while passing the letter "E"...

I had no common ground for discussion. I used to carry a whip with Mia. I used one on her once, very early on. Afterward, about 1-2 times a year, I would smack MY leg with it, creating a sharp sound. But I gave it up when I decided I needed to give her more freedom, not less.

Our philosophy of riding also affects how we train. And not just whips. Someone who wants to trail ride an understanding horse doesn't need nor train for instant obedience to almost invisible cues. It is irrelevant. If riding is a conversation (as I prefer), then the horse NEEDS to be able to talk back. One can then make it clear X is important, and the horse may say "Not X" is VERY important to him. Or say, "Well, if it is that important to you" and do it.

I'm sure Stacy and @*Smilie* can both get horses who are calm, content, and ready to go either in a show or on a trail. I don't need the show, so I feel good in taking a tense & nervous horse and getting (slowly) a companion I trust on a trail. But MY philosophy of riding may permit me to do things in training that @*Hondo* rejects. Our philosophy of riding is as much about us as people as it is about horses. AND about what we want to do - WHY we enjoy riding. Lots of folks would not enjoy the riding I do, just as I would as soon be emasculated as compete in a show. WHY we ride drives HOW we ride, and how we train.

VS Littauer had 40 plus years of riding when he wrote about his philosophy of riding. Mine has changed significantly in the 9 years I've ridden. My goals in riding have changed as well, and my taste in horses unwittingly ended up being "nervous horses", and good riders admit nervous horses sometimes need a different approach than fundamentally confident horses. [Which is why a good trainer tries to start a horse in a way that builds confidence.]

I don't agree with the behaviorists who say licking and chewing ALWAYS means the horse has been badly stressed, but I do believe it is not always a GOOD sign either. If Bandit licks & chews after we've passed over a tough section of ground, and he is proud of what he has accomplished, it is good. If the horse's head is down, sides heaving, sweat dripping, having given up, it is bad. 

At least, bad given how I am willing to ride a horse. And some may prefer a lower-stress approach to riding than I use, or be willing to accept higher degrees of stress. I grant that good riders CAN use higher stress than I do and end up with happy horses. But in a sense, that doesn't matter to me, because it isn't how I want to approach horses.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RE: WHY we ride drives HOW we ride, and how we train.

Comment: IMO, this is pretty good and worth repeating.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I actually agree with both of you, fore the most part this morning!
I often wonder why I never pushed myself to show at the World level, was it only the money, or perhaps, doing what 'everyone does', when the stakes are high, with lots of money invested.
I like to think not, as I refused to follow what were common practices, even on the breed local circuit. I never had healthy hocks injected, a tail altered, and when I ran games, I did so in a snaffle and never carried a bat
My mares were never on regulmate.
Far as equitation position, I think we have discussed it before, and it certainly varies from 'classical' position on the flat, to what is needed, in many activities
,,To stay with a horse, you do have to be centered, legs under you , and not in an arm chair position Stirrups, even on modern western saddles, allow your legs to move as they need to, allowing you to move them forward, in such things as a hard stop, for instance
I don't ride down the trail as if I am being judged in an equitation class! I switch rein hands whenever i feel like it, just sit relaxed, and it is natural for me to ride with heels down, some weight in the stirrups. You can also stay with a horse much better that way, during sudden moves I have not consciously put myself in any position, it is just 'natural' I ride with longer stirrups then many, most likely going back to my knees
At times I just have my reins draped over my saddle, using both hands on my camera


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My wife may ride 6 times in a week, then not ride for 2 months. My goal for my horses is to get all of them to where she can ride them safely. Trooper and Cowboy are there. Bandit is headed in that direction. But THAT goal obviously requires a different approach than I would take if my goal was to be able to ride Bandit at a high level. Because my wife needs a horse she can just trust while riding simple...and I think that trust is WHY she rides:








​ 
I respect people who can compete without losing their values. My Dad was hyper-competitive. I inherited some of it. More than I like. And if I competed on a horse, I'd sacrifice my horse to win. I'd be ashamed of myself afterward, but I'd do it. So I don't compete. MY personality affecting MY way of riding.



Smilie said:


> ...I switch rein hands whenever i feel like it, just sit relaxed, and it is natural for me to ride with heels down, some weight in the stirrups....it is just 'natural' I ride with longer stirrups then many, most likely going back to my knees...


Not there yet, but it is the way I am headed. One of the things I like about the saddle @*SouthernTrails* built for me is that I can put my legs anywhere I want, when I want.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well! While we're all feeling warm and fuzzy, I need to hand you a big thank you @Smilie.

I'll expose my ignorance by revealing that until you mentioned Liberty Training in an above post, the term had somehow escaped my knowledge base for the past three years.

In spending some time with Google this morning on the subject, it became apparent that has been what I may have been searching for in many of my posts.

Liberty Training does appear to begin to closely describe "Why I Ride" and also "Why I Choose To Have Horses In My Life".

Sometimes I wonder how much strife could be avoided with face to face discussions rather than in print.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It was just too hot to ride today, so I did some groundwork with my new horse instead. Yesterday on a ride, he spooked at something (still don't know what) and jumped sideways so fast I nearly came off, which is rare. Then something on the other side spooked him and he jumped back the other way and tried to buck. Got him bent around and stopped, then we continued on our ride and he was fine, just more jumpy than usual. So yeah, today we worked on more desensitizing. 

We met the 'big scary plastic bag' on the end of a stick. He'd stand for a bit, them jump around and scoot and act like an idiot. Then stand, then repeat. His modus operandi seems to be one big spook, then we accept it for a bit, then we spook again, then we accept it, etc. How I know he's not relaxed and will spook again? No licking and chewing. I don't place a ton of value on that as a be-all and end-all in training, but I was paying pretty close attention on it over working with him this week, and it seems to be a reliable indicator for him. When I introduced the clipper the other day, he seemed accepting and stood relaxed as I clipped part of his bridle path, then jumped away again. Repeated showing it to him and working up his neck and back down and after a minute or two he dropped his head, relaxed, cocked a leg, and chewed. Finished clipping his bridle path and neatened up his coronets and under his jaw and he never moved a muscle and was snoozing by the time I was done. Today the same with the bag-- flipped it all over, whacked it on the ground, got him to stand relaxed with it whipping back and forth all over and brushing against him and around his feet and up under his flanks and face. Soft eye, relaxed posture, very accepting and calm in his body language. I thought we were done for the day and then the wind caught it and he jumped sideways and scooted around in a circle a bit. I kept moving it that way until he stopped, then until he relaxed, then until he chewed then rubbed on him with it. He did not even consider spooking at it again today. So for him, the licking and chewing seems to be pretty reliable that he's thinking and accepting.

He's also afraid of being in the barn when people are with him and very spooky in there, so I started with the bag once we were in the barn again, which would usually bother him, but no. He stood nicely and calmly and licked and chewed and we ended there for the day and he was groomed and fly sprayed and I loved on him a bit and turned him out. Rather than racing back to his pasturemate, he hung out at the gate with me for awhile. It's the most relaxed I've seen him in the three weeks I've had him. 

My old gelding wasn't a 'lick and chewer'. My mare never got worked up enough to get stressed enough to do it (you literally couldn't spook her if you tried) but for my new guy, it seems to be a pretty reliable indicator that he's making some progress. It will be interested to see how that pans out over the course of his rehab and training.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, after further perusal I see that all Liberty Training is not equal. Even CA practices it and recommends that the horse first be taken through beginner, intermediate, and advanced training befor Liberty Training. Half way through one of his introductory videos the horse seemed to flinch sideways in order to avoid an anticipated physical correction for a small error, (which it turned out the horse did not commit).

So that was not quite what I had in mind.

I'm more interested in the principles found in frinedshiptraining.org where no devices, not ever clickers, are used but rather reward only. No pressure release, none of that.

They have a Yahoo Group and also Facebook. The principles sound a little extreme but at worst I should be able to at least find a few like-minded people and hopefully some resources for the type training they advocate or something similar.

But I still appreciate the term Liberty Training as it led me to an area of horse training that I have been searching for and wondered if even existed.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, most liberty training, first has that horse well trained, 'conventionally\, so that you can drop the aids,like a bit, and ride just the training
Of course, liberty training is integral for animals that perform to cues alone,be it circus animals or those exhibitions that are so popular
I do enjoy watching some liberty work,and why I attend Cavelia whenever it is in the area
I just got back from a very long ride with my son and his significant other
We rode all the way in to the Panther cabin,with several river crossings, some trials along the edge of a cliff, and I just trust my horse to negotiate them on a loose rein, otherwise, you can screw up their footing.
No place to try and micro manage a horse!
We had three dogs along.KInda funny how they have learned to let the river current carry them, and downstream, at an angle, until they get closer to shore
All well and good, but my son's dumb lab jumped in up river from my hrose, and drifted right under her! Carmen was great!
My son did from then on, cross rivers first with his lab, and then we crossed
No sighting of that sow grizzly and cubs, who was there a week before,but we did find scat
To me, a ride like that proves I must be doing something right, have that connection and trust with my horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well I don't think anybody here including me thinks you don't have connection and trust with your horse.

But I am very interested in what they are doing at friendshiptraining, or FT as they call it. The Yahoo site is still there but they have moved to Facebook which I no longer have. So I'll need to learn some more about the controls and privacy before I open another account.

FT, and perhaps others, uses no round pen, no whips or sticks, no pressure release, no avoidance, no clickers, no confinement or obstructions to fleeing/escape. All training is said to be done in an open field from day one.

I read the guys bio and he does appear to have a lot of experience. Everything sounds very interesting to me along with the welcome recieved. So far, I have not encountered any request for money or donations but I have not been to the FB site yet.

I'm very excited to explore this new paradigm.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just watched the lady's video up through the 10 minute mark where I aborted.

I don't know when the video was made, or who has been trimming that foot, but the heels were extremely imbalanced with one being way way forward of the other.

I think I agree that an under run heel can cause flaring at the quarters but saw no mention of the imbalance of the heels that had been allowed to exist.

As for as the hoof not having a natural arch, well that flies in the face of every professional and every feral wild horse.

I understand getting "off the wall thinking", I do it all the time. But I do not understand someone deciding their thinking is correct without consulting professionals whose lives have been spent in thoughtful research and collaboration with others in the same field.

I might have watched the rest but there are cloudy days now from the monsoon season and I need to save my precious solar electrons for other things and not need to start up a generator.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You lost me, Hondo. What lady's video? 
Was this a hoof forum post?
Sorry, just waking up slowly, yesterday was a long ride for an old gal,and then I still had Smilie and Charlie to take care of, when I got home
My son sort of forgets how old his mother is, so we push the envelope more then when just riding with hubby. At least, he likes to take me, so all good!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Duh, I lost myself. That was supposed to have been posted in the hoof forum. Dunno how that happened.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I think licking and chewing is a sign the horse is relaxing and that could be interpreted as "thinking" My thoughts are this: in the day and age where people are using shows, clinics and on-line videos trainers must be able to give viewers/owners signs to know when to move on to another task. Licking and chewing after a training regime does happen for many horses and can be used as a queue for erstwhile home trainers. 

This licking and chewing is a sign in a given "training" task and can be used to indicate the horse is "thinking (this I think is a marketing term and not the actual process the horse is going through) 

I for one like the idea of "licking and chewing" as a sign - as another poster said horses given time to "think" or "soak" or whatever term is used after a successfully completed task tend to retain the training better and ultimately make better mounts.

Our older mare does not Lick and Chew after a task or stressful situation she Yawns - and that is how we know she is calming down.


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