# What is the Pessoa Training aid



## ILOVEMYHORSE123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I found an interesting article on the Pessoa Training aid and was wondering if any of you have ever used it and what you think of the item. Thank you

How to use pessoa training aid - by Jenni Hillis - Helium


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Personally, I don't like it. The pulley system works off the hind legs; whenever the horse's hind legs go back, the bit is activated on that side. Thus, the bit is essentially see-sawed back and forth by the horse's own movement.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

JDI, have you used one before? I've never seen it seesaw the bit as their are rollers on the rope form the hind legs to the bit that slide along the rope when the hind leg goes back thus there is no pull on the bit.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

JDI is correct. It does see-saw. Here are some pictures. BTW I didn't draw that .










You are right, it goes to the surcingle put it doesn't attach to it. If it attached to it, it wouldn't see-saw because the bit would be attached to the surcingle separately from the part behind the legs. Instead, the rope just goes through a ring in the surcingle to keep it from getting to low when the horse lowers its head.










I would not use the pessoa system. It doesn't teach softness, suppleness or relaxation. It just yanks and pulls all over the horse making it more confused. The horse's only choice really is to put its head down. Just because a complicated rope system is forcing a horse into a frame does not make it good. All I see is a bunch of ropes seemingly trying to pull a horse together? *Get on the horse and ride it! Ropes don't train horses.* If you can't train a horse then you shouldn't be training it. Be as simple as you can with gadgets. Draw reins or side reins(depending on the horse, if you know how to use them and if you have a reason to use them). I use draw reins on my horse to keep his neck straight on the lunge or else it gets bent in three directions. If I put the pessoa system on my horse he'd probably end up at the other end of the arena or flipped over but that's because through bad training he was taught to fight. 

This system would be soooooo confusing to a green horse and stupid for a schooled horse. Therefore it has no valid use .


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## ILOVEMYHORSE123 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thank you everyone, so much for the detailed information. You all made great points.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

SP, once again, there are rollers on the ropes which prevent it from seesawing. Have you actually seen one in use in real life, rather than just reading or looking at drawings? 
Because I have seen a Pessoa system used a number of times, and I can tell you from an eyewitness view, that the system ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT 'yank and pull the horses everywhere making it more confused'. The horses that I have seen travelling in a Pessoa system, have gone very sweetly and happily, there was no see sawing action to be seen, the horse can easily raise it's head but the system merely encourages the horse to stretch over the back. 
It is a far more user friendly system than side reins, which are a great lunging tool if used in knowledgable hands, as the bum rope is encouraging the horse to engage its hind legs rather than needing the lunger to concentrate soley on the hind legs when in side reins to prevent the horse leaning and falling onto the forehand. The Pessoa also prevents the horse being able to lean against a solid contact, but still gives a constant contact so that it is not being hit in the mouth at every stride.

If the rollers were not on the system, then YES it would be see sawing, but because the rollers are there, as I explained in my previous post, they take the motion of the hind legs moving and allow the contact to the bit to remain steady.

No I do not use the system, I don't feel the need to but I can definitely see its benefit. 

As for you comment 'get on the horse and ride it' fair enough if you are a knowledgable enough rider to ask the horse to come together without interfering with it's balance or pulling on the reins/giving inappropriately timed releases, but for many people this is not the case and they need a helping hand. Lunging systems allow the lunger/rider train the horse without the added weight an imbalance of a rider as well. This also encourages a horse to pick up it's back far more readily than it would with a rider on board when it is still only just developing the necessary strength to lift it's back. 

You use draw reins on your horse - would you like me to fight tooth and nail about how horrendous the results of draw reins can be? Everything has it's place. Draw reins are certainly not user friendly. I have used them only a handful of times a a very select few horses who travelled inverted and were genuinely confused as to whether they could actually lower the neck. Namely ottbs. Overuse leads to overbending, sucking behind the bridle to evade contact among other issues... so I'd be careful about yelling good and loud about how terrible a Pessoa system is


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I use one, but it is not a full one. It connects across the pole and to the bit, the rest I don't need as I can ask for forward motion while lunging myself. 

And why does the poll not match the question?


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

gadgetry is no way to achieve proper results


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No, you're right christopher. However they can also assist in getting towards proper results. It's all fine and well to tell people that they should be able to achieve correct work through riding on the natural aids only. But not everyone is capable of this due to lack of experience and knowledge. So artificial aids can really help them out to get a little bit more of an understanding and give them a helping hand. 
I am in no way saying that everyone should use an training aid such as a pessoa on every horse, but there are instances where they are beneficial. It would be extremely short sighted of a person to say that everyone should be able to get correct work from a horse under saddle under their own steam. If that were the case why aren't we all international Grand Prix riders?


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## ILOVEMYHORSE123 (Mar 11, 2011)

ALEXS Sorry about the pole not matching the question. I am new to this forum and this is the first pole that I ever created so I thought that I should keep it simple. Next time I will know to make it more specific to the question. Thank you.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

ILMH123 - you don't need to make a poll on every thread either  Only add one if you genuinely would like to know people's thoughts or opinions on something rather than just putting one up for the sake of it.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

ILOVEMYHORSE123 said:


> ALEXS Sorry about the pole not matching the question. I am new to this forum and this is the first pole that I ever created so I thought that I should keep it simple. Next time I will know to make it more specific to the question. Thank you.


It doesn't matter, I just wondered.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> SP, once again, there are rollers on the ropes which prevent it from seesawing. Have you actually seen one in use in real life, rather than just reading or looking at drawings?
> 
> Because I have seen a Pessoa system used a number of times, and I can tell you from an eyewitness view, that the system ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT 'yank and pull the horses everywhere making it more confused'. The horses that I have seen travelling in a Pessoa system, have gone very sweetly and happily, there was no see sawing action to be seen, the horse can easily raise it's head but the system merely encourages the horse to stretch over the back.
> 
> It is a far more user friendly system than side reins, which are a great lunging tool if used in knowledgable hands, as the bum rope is encouraging the horse to engage its hind legs rather than needing the lunger to concentrate soley on the hind legs when in side reins to prevent the horse leaning and falling onto the forehand. The Pessoa also prevents the horse being able to lean against a solid contact, but still gives a constant contact so that it is not being hit in the mouth at every stride.


 

Kadeebug, I greatly agree with you  Great posts!

I use the Pessoa Training System on Nelson, and it does not see saw his mouth in any form. I use it because his topline is weak and there are days where I cannot get on his back and ride, so I turn to the Pessoa Training System to help.

I was encouraged to buy this system from my Equine Chiro and my Equine Massage Therapist who work on my horse monthly, and depending on the severity of his sessions, I am not permitted to get on his back - so therefore, this system comes in VERY handy for me.

When Nelson works in this "gadgetry" he does soften, he does stretch stretch down and I see the benefits, so does my Chiro and Massage Therapist. 

And Nelson is a very schooled horse.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Maybe it's improved from the first variation I saw. No, I have not used it myself, but was interested in buying it at first until I researched it further and saw the action on video. From what I saw, the hind legs activated one set of pulleys that directly or indirectly (can't recall) pulled on the rope attaching to the bit, so with every stride, the mouth was being affected. The action of the hind legs (alternating) made me think see-saw. 
I much prefer something simple like my bungee Vienna rein set-up, personally.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

If you watch this video:




You see that the hindquarter rigging system is only supported by a pulley, then runs through the bit. Hence every hind leg moving backwards influences the bit. 
In this video:




You can see the slack taken up against the bit with the backwards swing of each hind leg.

It may work for some horses, and I'm sure some riders like the system. Personally, I don't use it and won't. That is my personal perogative and my personal feeling and opinion, take from it what you want to


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I have not seen one used so I don't want to form an opinion until I use one. In that first video posted the hind piece looks to low and does seem to tug a bit on his mouth. If I were to use it I would adjust it a bit higher.. perhaps a foot above the hocks so you wouldn't get a more natural movement (less jerky) of the bit (In theory).


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Excellent post Kayty! I don't agree when people throw on a gadget and expect it to be a quick and effective fix without proper training/riding to go with it. But in some cases "gadgets" can be quite helpful. Sure, in a perfect world every rider would work their horse perfectly to get the correct muscle build... but as much as some of my beginner students try, it's simply not going to happen. Maybe someday, but not yet. Does that mean that the horse shouldn't get worked properly? No. The Pessoa system can be a great way to build up correct muscles until they learn to do it themselves. 

And MIE had another excellent post. Sometimes it just isn't possible to ride to ride a horse that day. I like the system better then side reins and it's much better then running the horse around a lunge line with nothing. I've seen plenty of horses go quite happily in this rig.


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## SPhorsemanship (Apr 5, 2010)

I never said gadgets were bad. I said ropes don't train horses and that is true. You can't expect to throw on a pessoa and have a horse being supple and round when you get on it. The mouth has been see-sawed. I also never said lunging a horse was bad either, but when training a horse to push from behind, into the bit, then riding is what will work. Attaching a rope behind a horse's legs that see-saws on the mouth will only shorten the horse. If you use a gadget, use something simple. Use something that has only one action like vienna reins(like draw reins) or side reins. If the ropes could change lengths as the horse reacted and moved then it would be fine. But when there is a certain length that a horse has to move in, it isn't that good. On the ground you want only direct actions to the horse because there is no rider on its back to change with the horse. If you can't ride the horse and the point is to exercise it or just get it round on the lunge then why do you have to load the horse up with ropes? If you are training a green horse to go on the bit, I personally think it should be done with a rider. If you do want to lunge it, the simpler the gadget is, the better and more comprehensible it is for the horse.


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## ILOVEMYHORSE123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I would just like to thank everyone for all of the information provided. There have been great points made on both sides of the issue. As with any training tool it can be used improperly. As riders we all know that every horse is different and we utilize different tools to get each horse to respond. I personally think that I prefer to have the personal contact that riding the horse provides. Thank you all so much for providing clarification on the Pessoa Training Aide. 

I do love that this forum allows us the ability to debate the pros and cons of many different issues. Please keep me updated on any new information that you find on the Pessoa Training Aide.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

im not a fan of devices and gadget and prefer to keep it as simple as possible. side reins do fall short in that if used improperly they encourage leaning (so i vary length regularly within the workout). however i feel when you use all sorts of gadgets and contraptions you take away from the most important natural aids. i'd rather do some longing with long loose side reins to encourage the horse to stretch and reinforce that on a long rein under saddle to allow them to learn to accept the contact.

i prefer to teach the horse to accept and give them the time to figure it out rather than use a gadget to force or push it on them. (force can be too harsh of a word sorry.) does that mean i am anti-draw reins? no. but i prefer them to help a trained horse coming back into work with conditioning rather than to teach a green horse how to round and accept the bit bc again i feel they can encourage the horse to lean, root, or duck behind the bit.

training tools do have their place, and i will never say that one or the other is the be all end all to a problem nor will i say that they are all bad and should never be used. imho the pessoa system is a shortcut that has some positives but i see more often misused as a way to get a horse "into a frame" in less time than traditional workouts (longing, long lining, ground driving, and U/S work). but i know this is my opinion and i have certainly seen tools such as the pessoa system benefit some horses. 

in short i feel that most training tools and gadgets can be very easily overused and go from complimenting the traditional training to replacing it all together. at the end of the day i want a horse that seeks out the contact regardless of seat or discipline, without the need for any extra accessories (tie downs, fig 8s, etc.) so that those additional items of tack and training tools can be used when circumstances warrant (horse coming back into work, for safety when field hunting, etc.). at home i want to be able to school in the simplest of simple and KNOW that my horse understands my NATURAL aids rather than rely on outside tools wherever possible.

(disclaimer: this is not intended to start an argument, just my opinion of tools and how i have seen them used/overused. this is not a judgement against the OP or anyone in here for that matter and as stated i DO use tools in my training as i see fit and how my trainers see fit.)


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

upnover said:


> Excellent post Kayty! I don't agree when people throw on a gadget and expect it to be a quick and effective fix without proper training/riding to go with it. But in some cases "gadgets" can be quite helpful. Sure, in a perfect world every rider would work their horse perfectly to get the correct muscle build... but as much as some of my beginner students try, it's simply not going to happen. Maybe someday, but not yet. Does that mean that the horse shouldn't get worked properly? No. The Pessoa system can be a great way to build up correct muscles until they learn to do it themselves.
> 
> And MIE had another excellent post. Sometimes it just isn't possible to ride to ride a horse that day. I like the system better then side reins and it's much better then running the horse around a lunge line with nothing. I've seen plenty of horses go quite happily in this rig.


as an aside, i've found my more well trained horses (farther along in their training) will longe stretching and reaching without side reins or even a bridle when they have been worked with regularly and properly both u/s and on the longe. just makes me feel like the message of stretching and driving from behind has been retained by the horse because then when i take away all gadgets/tools/training aids other than a halter, longe, and my voice and body signals, the horse is still reaching and seeking out a contact even w/o a bit. good stuff


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

JustDressageIt - that 2nd vid is a wonderful example of a false frame. the horse is tight in their throatlatch, lacking the relaxtion to truly stretch and reach and engage the hind end, and is disconnecting energy just behind the withers. the hind is tracking up but the energy stops there as the horse braces their neck and jaw. this results in the horse slightly behind the bit, the lack of full range of shoulder motion, and the misperception that the horse (who may be clipping their front with their hind) is overreaching due to hind engagement when in reality the horse is clipping because they lack freedom and full reach from the shoulder through the neck and poll. imo in that vid the lines need to be looser and the horse needs to stretch and reach for the contact rather than brace and false frame against it.

i find side reins easier (less complicated) to use bc i can simply make them loose enough that just the weight/motion of the reins on the bit as the horse moves encourages them to stretch without causing bracing while they are too long to make the horse false frame or duck. i prefer a horse slightly above the bit moving forward than one slightly behing where the energy block occurs just behind the withers.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Kayty said:


> SP, once again, there are rollers on the ropes which prevent it from seesawing. Have you actually seen one in use in real life, rather than just reading or looking at drawings?
> Because I have seen a Pessoa system used a number of times, and I can tell you from an eyewitness view, that the system ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT 'yank and pull the horses everywhere making it more confused'. The horses that I have seen travelling in a Pessoa system, have gone very sweetly and happily, there was no see sawing action to be seen, the horse can easily raise it's head but the system merely encourages the horse to stretch over the back.
> It is a far more user friendly system than side reins, which are a great lunging tool if used in knowledgable hands, as the bum rope is encouraging the horse to engage its hind legs rather than needing the lunger to concentrate soley on the hind legs when in side reins to prevent the horse leaning and falling onto the forehand. The Pessoa also prevents the horse being able to lean against a solid contact, but still gives a constant contact so that it is not being hit in the mouth at every stride.
> 
> ...


I'm currently having to remouth my mare after the breakers used a pessoa on her. Prior to being broken she had been lunged with side reins and had a beautiful mouth, worked beautifully on the lunge, active and soft. 

She now has a terrible fussy mouth and I watched the Pessoa in action and the while the pulleys absorb some of the motion they don't absorb it all and the action with the movement of the hind legs is to see saw the head down.

I'm now off to continue working my horse on the lunge in side reins to try and correct the damage done by the Pessoa.


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