# Saddleseat - Action Devices?



## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

Hello,

I recently picked up Saddlebred who was previously on the road. He's about 10, registered, and his sire is pretty well known in the show ring with lines to Attache. I realize my horse's body my be broken down from being on the road, but I still hold out hope he might be able to be fun shown. He doesn't appear to be lame or anything of the sorts, but he also doesn't seem to have a lot of motion just trotting on the ground. I have yet to ride him, I'm still letting him get acclimated to his new home. I'm curious to know if a horse doesn't have a ton of motion just trotting in the arena, will the same carry over when I get on his back? 

Also, what action devices to you suggest? And do they actually work? I realize while they're on you can obtain more motion, but what happens when you take them off? Will your horse still have more motion? I've seen horses with stretchies on, and then minute they came off they didn't have as much motion.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry, but they use so much junk on those horses that it is sad....he will probably not have as much action under saddle as free...at least my National Show Horse doesn't. 

Buggies just lift the foot, and you can tell in the ring the bungied horses, because they lift their feet, but not their knee from the elbow.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Is there something wrong with the horse moving naturally?


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

You may be better off joining a specific saddleseat or saddlebred forums to ask questions like this. You are likely going to catch a lot of flack on a forums like this as that type of training is generally frowned upon by non-saddleseat people.


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## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

QHDragon said:


> You may be better off joining a specific saddleseat or saddlebred forums to ask questions like this. You are likely going to catch a lot of flack on a forums like this as that type of training is generally frowned upon by non-saddleseat people.


I see that. Can you suggest any? That's pretty unfortunate I have to catch flack... I'm not being cruel or planning to be cruel.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Rule of thumb, not much action free = less action under saddle, sometimes even having a horse who trots level barefoot at liberty translates into no action under saddle. If there's really no action, then all the action devices in the world won't create it. 

Also, you need to look at head set. neck set and throatlatch to see if the horse is conformationally built to be able to excel at the various saddleseat trot classes. 

I have a mare who trots level, liberty and under saddle but is not built to bridle up the way they do, so she would not be successful in those classes.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

In my experience bungies will improve the horses movement temporarily. Weighted shoes can also be used but do cause problems and can exacerbate lameness issues. 

That said, a horse who moves at a consistent pace and has a consistent head carriage will place better than a horse that doesn't. So I would work on those things first. Someone's horse may move better than yours but if your horse behaves better than you can still win on a local level.

If you don't want to use special shoes or action devices, look for flat shod classes or country pleasure. They do have classes that don't require your horse to move in an exaggerated manner.

If dressage is of interest you could also show in that or jumping. I have a friend who always places well with her saddlebred Dressage horses. Don't feel like you have to show saddle seat just because you have a Saddle bred. Try out some open breed shows and have fun.

If I owned a saddle bred I would not be showing saddle seat! Just because I do not agree with how the industry is run- soring may not happen as much but the people (at least in this area) seem behind in the Times. Stalling your horse 24/7, using padded shoes and action devices- they don't seem to have the horses best interest at heart. I don't like seeing it. If I go to a show I like to see horses treated right. 

Times are changing, but the change is not happening fast enough. I don't like tailsets. It certainly seems cruel to me. Unless they do a major overhaul of the industry it is not something I would want to support. This is just my opinion.

I've also seen people who treat their horses really well, but the bad apples ruined it for me. I did show in saddle seat for a short while. I love saddlebreds-they are an amazing breed.


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

He's not guaranteed to be trotty out the wazoo just because of his breed + breeding; sometimes things just don't pan out. If he's not super trotty then he's not super trotty and there's really nothing you can do about it (If you have to rely solely on shoes to get the job done, then your horse is not suitable to that job). He's not going to get more trotty as he settles in.

I don't know anything about saddlebreds but I believe their Country English doesn't allow shoeing, etc anyway? Might want to look into that. Or another discipline, especially if you want to be competitive. Action devices don't really seem to do much anyway (stretchies build up muscle but are not magic)

I'm really big on the horse either having the motion or not, and if they don't then they're not built for it and it's asinine at best to try and force it, or actively harmful at worst. If you just want to have fun showing then God's speed + have fun with your pony, but if you want to be competitive saddleseat then it sounds like he's not the horse to do that particular job.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You cannot force a horse that does not have the correct action...you can enhance good action....that is how a well bred show horse such as yours winds up outside the show stable.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Ok you wont catch any flak from me as I ride and Train saddleseat!

The answer is: It depends. 

Action devices should NEVER be ised to create movement, but to enhance it and encourage it. What allows a horse to have the correct movement and stay sound is conformation, which as any breeder can tell you is a 50-50 crapshoot. 

I would suggest finding a reputable trainer who can give you a good opinion and do whats best for the horse. He doesnt have to trot big, unless you want to show in circuit shows which he may not be suited for. 

Personally I use three devices (Im posting this for extra knowledge):

1) chains/weights. Sounds horrible and cruel but I put a lightweight chain around the foot. If the pick up their foot thats the motion I know I can get at max. If they need to learn how to continuously pick up their feet I will put a two to three pound chain on and work them for five minuets. They learn that its okay to pick their feet up and be "hot"

2) Shoes. A good farrier can shoe a horse with a weighted shoe and have the horse sound. My park horses have never been lame a day in their lives and theyve had shoes. The issue you run into is that turnout is difficult. The ground MUST BE DRY AND COMPACT because if that shoe rips off its going to tear hoof. Again this is just used in a minor capacity to build upon a horse's natural ability. 

3) training training training. The #1 way to get the most movement out of a horse is to teach them to collect up and give to the bit. Your shoes and chains IMHO should not be more than 5-7# and they should only be used to help enhance what the horse is giving you under saddle. 

Op before you go to the action gadgets work on getting him supple, comfirtable in the bridle and teaching him to collect up and see what motion he has. If any of that was unclear feel free to ask me questions. I'm a huge advocate for clearing up some misconceptions people have over GOOD, saddleseat trainers and riders and their techniques. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have owned several ASBs. The reason I owned them is because they did not make show horses. I loved them. I used one for several years as a lesson horse. He was one of the nicest and most honest lesson horses I have ever had. 

If they do not have natural action, you cannot force them to have it. It is just the same as not being able to MAKE a horse be a cow horse and you cannot MAKE a race horse be fast or want to run.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

jlope79 said:


> I see that. Can you suggest any? That's pretty unfortunate I have to catch flack... I'm not being cruel or planning to be cruel.


You will have to google that. I don't know any off the top of my head.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

The shoeing issue is the reason I don't like saddle seat. Some people think you have to have shoes to show successfully. You can't turn out with shoes so your horse ends up stalled- for life in some cases. I don't consider an hour of exercise a day enough to make up for jailing your horse. 

The reason I quit working at the saddle seat barn is because one of the horses had an impaction colic and was put down. Stalling (and lack of exercise) are some of the main risk factors for impaction colic- If that horse had turnout or was fed better (he was on a high grain diet) he might still be here. His owner lived a few hours away and only visited a few times a year. I blame her as she knew what the conditions were. Her horse wasn't exercised unless I went out and lunged him - and that was if I had time at the end of the work day (which I didn't). 

Why own a horse if you are going to lock them in jail? Stalling is fine if you work your horse hard enough. Most horses don't get that today.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My first horse at 12 was an ex-Saddleseat champ Morgan. In his late 20s as a barefoot backyard horse he moved like he was in the show ring.

I took him to the local camp. We ended up in the most advanced group, just cause he made me look good (I assumed all horses had auto flying changes lol). He must have thought it was a show because he was perfect. Great great horse, but the point is they either have that movement or they don't. He was hot and strong too (for a kid lol)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Cherie said:


> I have owned several ASBs. The reason I owned them is because they did not make show horses. I loved them. I used one for several years as a lesson horse. He was one of the nicest and most honest lesson horses I have ever had.
> 
> If they do not have natural action, you cannot force them to have it. It is just the same as not being able to MAKE a horse be a cow horse and you cannot MAKE a race horse be fast or want to run.


Great example on the racehorses. I know FAR more tattooed TBs that flunked off the track than actual racehorses!! Though there's definitely a "heart" aspect to racing (and cowiness to cows) moreso than just ability.

OP I am also just not following your thought. You say you think he's broken down from showing but want to do a little locally for fun. Which is fine if he's up for it. But then you are asking how to train him for it? Well he is obviously already trained..? If you're doing it for fun does it matter? If he's broken down why push him?

I'm not understanding you wanting to use devices you clearly know nothing about (that's fine, I don't really either) on a horse that is already well trained at a higher level to show at a "fun" level. It's not necessary and not something I'd advise doing.

I agree the lack of movement is why you have him.

I'm NOT giving you a hard time on the topic (nor do I think others are or would??) but I'm still not following the logic.


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## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

Incitatus32 said:


> Ok you wont catch any flak from me as I ride and Train saddleseat!
> 
> The answer is: It depends.
> 
> ...


Thank YOU! Finally, someone who actually doesn't criticize me. Lol.

First and foremost, I realize the Saddlebred industry can be pretty cool. I came over from the Arabian industry, and I'm not impressed. That doesn't mean that's going to stop me! I can tell my guy has been pin fired in one leg, but he moves fine. I have video if that helps (I can always send to you), and have video of someone else under saddle on him. I *think* he actually might have some pretty cute motion once I put shoes on. It's cute without shoes, but I'm gathering it will be more with shoes. I also thought I'd mention I will not use pads, just a plate or something a bit weighted.

So far I've used just a 6 oz weight - the leather bands that are weighted. Are you suggesting using something heavier? You mention 5-7 pounds? That seems heavy? I also haven't ridden with them on, only on the ground. I realize I need to do a lot of ground driving to get him to use his back end to lift up in the front.

He is in a stall with small turnout attached. I'm guessing he should be okay.

To everyone else who is criticizing and judging me in this post. I've had horses for nearly 20 years. I took 6 years off completely. I've had most of my horses in some type of professional training. It's not that I don't know what I'm doing, so you can the negative comments elsewhere or not comment at all.

Thanks to those who have contributed something positive!


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## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

greentree said:


> You cannot force a horse that does not have the correct action...you can enhance good action....that is how a well bred show horse such as yours winds up outside the show stable.


Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with this. Most often these horses end up outside the barn because the trainer can't get them sold for what they want or what the client wants via the regular market. Sometimes the horse might not be "world" caliber, etc. So, then the trainer takes them to an Amish sale where they can most often get close to that money, or slowly push the horse under the rug. There are tons of show horses that end up on the road, it's actually rather sad. Mine, in my case, ended up there because the trainer he was with had some personal problems. He was never taught to canter, and didn't get complete training... so we're going through the motions.


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## saddlebred99 (Feb 19, 2015)

I can see why you would want to obtain more motion from this horse, but some saddlebreds just aren't natural movers. Of course, most saddlebreds will have a naturally higher head set and more knee action than most other breeds but they still may not be "show quality." If you want a little more knee action, I would suggest weighted chains on the hind end and, if you wanted, weighted bell boots on the front. The more you can motivate and engage their hind quarters and hind legs, the more action you're going to see in the front. I am not a fan of bungees at all. I just feel that it promotes more forced action than natural and they break. A lot. You can enter a lot of open shows that are completely okay with mellower saddlebreds (around here anyways).


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

OP I know your experienced with horses (and please don't take this the wrong way haha) but how much experience do you have with training saddleseat? 

There's a lot of ins and outs that make the 'action device' either safe or dangerous and it really depends on the trainer to see when a horse can handle that or cannot. 

As for his motion what do you want? Do you want a circute moving horse that can move big and win? Or are you going to be okay with a saddlebred that you can take into equitation classes and not have the 'big movement'. Equally are lovely but if you want big movement I think you should have your horse evaluated by a professional before attempting to use any devices on him (especially if he's had any pin firing or nerve blocks done.) 

Again I didn't mean this in a negative light, just as more information. I personally would do lots of longlining and building him up. 

Most if not all of my park horses have dressage fundamentals put on them and a similar training regime. It takes constant work to condition a horse to the point that you'll be able to see movement.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jlope79 said:


> Thank YOU! Finally, someone who actually doesn't criticize me. Lol.


You know, she says conversationally, you could knock that chip off your shoulder. I'm not seeing much in the way of criticism here, I thought everyone had been welcoming, maybe asking questions, but also giving some ideas.

Remember this is an open forum and each and everyone of us takes a risk of what responses we get, and sometimes it is the reaction to them that is the thing that says a lot.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm also not really seeing criticism? Looks like you are looking for it and I don't know why.

I'm bummed you didn't answer my post which I think had some very valid questions. I just don't understand your logic.


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## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> Great example on the racehorses. I know FAR more tattooed TBs that flunked off the track than actual racehorses!! Though there's definitely a "heart" aspect to racing (and cowiness to cows) moreso than just ability.
> 
> OP I am also just not following your thought. You say you think he's broken down from showing but want to do a little locally for fun. Which is fine if he's up for it. But then you are asking how to train him for it? Well he is obviously already trained..? If you're doing it for fun does it matter? If he's broken down why push him?
> 
> ...


I saw your very last comment about being disappointed I hadn't responded. I was not ignoring you, I just didn't know what would come out of me commenting I guess. I guess my thoughts were kind of a simple analogy. You can't walk in to a gym and be an instant Olympic Athlete. Some people's bodies can't hold up to that type of work, some can get there, and others are just have the natural ability to excel in whatever division they choose. A good coach works well with everyone because they know how to develop those individuals strengths. Then again, some people do not have the ability to even walk a straight line. 

As for his physical self, I'm not sure he is "broken down," he's 10. I can tell he's been pin fired in one front leg. I don't think anything I do would be cruel, and I don't think I am completely clueless when it comes to action devices (which you had mentioned above you thought I was). I would never use anything I wasn't comfortable using. I guess the main reason I was asking was to gather some opinions from person who had a little more experience with this than I on motion and the success in using the action devices. He's full of spunk, a super sweet horse, and very willing to learn. He's not showing any signs of lameness, and is completely barefoot right now. If he doesn't have any more motion, I'd be more than happy to make him a huntseat horse. I was just fishing for experience in obtaining more motion. Thanks.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I was not critical...If we could get good action out of flat moving horses, do you not think someone would have figured out how??

I adore Saddlebreds...which is why I have bred my Arabians to them.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jlope79 said:


> I saw your very last comment about being disappointed I hadn't responded. I was not ignoring you, I just didn't know what would come out of me commenting I guess. I guess my thoughts were kind of a simple analogy. You can't walk in to a gym and be an instant Olympic Athlete. Some people's bodies can't hold up to that type of work, some can get there, and others are just have the natural ability to excel in whatever division they choose. A good coach works well with everyone because they know how to develop those individuals strengths. Then again, some people do not have the ability to even walk a straight line. *Exactly my point though and the part where I am confused. Am I wrong that he has been shown extensively? Would you take the Olympic athlete and take them to the local gym and have the coach there work with them? Absolutely not because they already know far more than the coach ever would.*
> 
> As for his physical self, I'm not sure he is "broken down," he's 10. I can tell he's been pin fired in one front leg. I don't think anything I do would be cruel, and I don't think I am completely clueless when it comes to action devices (which you had mentioned above you thought I was). *I meant no offense, just that you clearly aren't super knowledgeable if you need to ask, and for this purpose I think that should be that* I would never use anything I wasn't comfortable using. I guess the main reason I was asking was to gather some opinions from person who had a little more experience with this than I on motion and the success in using the action devices. *That won't be me, sorry, but see the part about my old gelding.* He's full of spunk, a super sweet horse, and very willing to learn. He's not showing any signs of lameness, and is completely barefoot right now. If he doesn't have any more motion, I'd be more than happy to make him a huntseat horse. *If he was shown extensively they probably already pushed him to the max, so why are you trying to? See above on the Olympic athlete. FWIW those two seem pretty opposite. Shrug. I am glad you are so open to it though and not trying to push him to be something he's not, which from the sound of it has already been tried.*I was just fishing for experience in obtaining more motion. Thanks.


Congrats, btw. He sounds absolutely adorable.


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## jlope79 (Aug 29, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> Congrats, btw. He sounds absolutely adorable.


Thanks!! He is pretty cute.

And to answer the questions, he has never been shown. His training was never even finished due to some personal problems with the trainer. I believe he would up on the road due a couple of different things, mostly being that he was not "world" (green shavings) caliber. The barn he came from is pretty big in the industry.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh ok I guess I completely misunderstood, sorry. My points still stand but I'm not so confused anymore about your training plan. (Though will say for fun shows how much does it matter?)

He can be a VERY nice horse without being top level. Nothing wrong with that. Let us know how it goes.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/action-devices-saddlebreds-620538/

You asked the same question back in September....are you expecting a different answer?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

greentree said:


> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/action-devices-saddlebreds-620538/
> 
> You asked the same question back in September....are you expecting a different answer?


We'll certainly got a lot more answers, that's for sure :wink:


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

My best friend and her boyfriend grew up riding and training Saddlebreds, both at some very big name barns in our state (her boyfriend actually won at Louisville in 2013). Before them all those action devices looked like torture devices to me, but I came from Dressage where we don't have those. I now, of course, know a bit more about them. And as such, I know these are not things that someone unfamiliar with them should be using.

It's also not at all uncommon for a Saddlebred to wind up Amish. They get run through the sale and bought by the Amish if they don't have enough action, if their hind end is too loose, if they weren't trained as well as stated, if they blow up in the ring, etc. This is all stuff I've been learning myself.

As far as showing him, if he doesn't have that much action to run with the big dogs at liberty, he most likely won't have it under saddle. I'd either choose to go into Country English Pleasure or Hunt Seat where the big moving trot isn't necessarily required. Not every Saddlebred from famous lines will be your next world champion. If that happened, everyone would have a really awesome horse because they'd be breeding to the ones always popping out world champions....


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

QHDragon said:


> You may be better off joining a specific saddleseat or saddlebred forums to ask questions like this. You are likely going to catch a lot of flack on a forums like this as that type of training is generally frowned upon by non-saddleseat people.


I have personally been trying to get a subforum here on Horseforum.com for a while now - there don't appear to be any other Saddleseat sites to go to for those of us who perform in the sport. It's unfortunate that the idea was declined, but what can you do.........

Before I go on to talk about the devices, it's important to understand that the 'action' is actually all on the rider, not the horse, and I politely disagree with those who have said that a horse without natural action can't develop it to some degree. Of course there are horses who are naturally 'hot' and thus will have more action, but it comes down to the responsibility of the rider to create that energy with their seat and legs. Almost all Saddlebreds, Arabs, and Morgans will step high when asked for more energy at the trot - it's just in their breed to do so. Some have larger motion that others because they are naturally higher energy horses. When it comes to Saddleseat, energy = action, and if your horse is lazy and won't give you that energy it doesn't mean they can't be Saddleseat horses - but that you must teach them that you need more energy from them and that it is okay to exert.

Other notes:
- remember to work your horse back to front, like in all other disciplines
- focus on straightness
- training and action devices are intended to be used in tandem, not separately or for one to substitute the other! This is so important. Action devices should be part of your training program, and your training program should never be without a trainer or an experienced Saddleseat person. Action devices can ruin a horse, or they can be used to compliment a good training program.

On action devices:

1. *Chains*. Pretty common, pretty simple, and despite controversy do NOT cause the horse any pain! To a horse, chains are fancy bracelets that go around the pastern and make lots of noise, and that's about as scary as they get. This noise, along with the slight weight that comes with having metal around the ankles, causes the horse to become more _aware _of their feet. That is why if you put chains on a horse and walk them around, they will step higher -- because they are suddenly aware of their feet. Over time, horses will become desensitized to it, much like any aid that is overused (spurs, bits, etc). For example, we switch my mare between regular simple chains and "drop chains" to combat this, because each type of chain has different effects. The drop chains are louder and heavier and we use these about once a week if we notice the horse starts to become desensitized to regular chains. Then we switch back. We also ride the horse with NO chains as well, to ensure that the effects of the chains are actually persisting. This means we expect the horse to have some level of enhanced movement when the chains are off, because they have been conditioned to lifting their legs a little more. Usually, the movement will never be as pronounced as when the chains are on, but you should still see an improvement if you were to compare the horse's stepping action before training with chains.

Chains can be worn on the front and back, and using them in the back will give your horse more hock action. You should always use chains on all 4 feet, not just the front, because just like in all other disciplines you want to work your horse from BACK TO FRONT. The more hock action your horse has, the higher they will step with their front legs. I strongly encourage the use of bell boots under the chains on the front legs.

2. *Stacked Pads & Shoes.* This _very _controversial method of shoeing is a necessity for horses performing in the Park classes (Pleasure classes focus more on manners, and though action is encouraged it's not necessary for it to be as extravagant). The pads raise the horse's front end and gives more weight to the feet, encouraging the horse to step higher. Every breed and class has its own restrictions on shoeing. Horses who have stacked pads cannot be turned out as it is physically dangerous for the horse and also expensive to replace a thrown shoe. In fact, showing Saddlebreds are probably the most expensive to shoe out of all breeds/disciplines at about $400 per farrier session. Most Saddlebreds have their shoes off during the fall/winter, and have them put back on shortly before show season and keep them on during competition. During these times, the horse must be kept stalled with no turnout.

3. *Draw Reins.* Excellent training tool when used correctly; terrible and dangerous when used incorrectly. Draw reins can teach an evasive/stiff horse to become supple when properly applied. Even I would never, ever use draw reins without being in a lesson with my trainer. I will say from personal experience that they have helped my mare become truly, honestly soft. 

4. *Training Martingale & Curb Rein Combo.* A simple martingale lays around the base of the horse's neck and attaches to the girth. There are two rings on either side, more if you buy a high quality martingale, for precision. The purpose of this martingale is to help prevent the saddle from sliding as you sit further back, and to allow you to train both you and your horse for a double bridle while still schooling in a snaffle. This is done by attaching two sets of reins to the snaffle rings, and running the BOTTOM rein, or curb rein, through the rings. This gives you a TINY bit of leverage for lateral flexion which you and your horse can practice with before moving up to a real Saddleseat bit - this is considered a Saddleseat rider's right of passage in my barn! :lol: I've been riding Saddleseat for 6 months and am still using this, as I have yet to earn my curb bit!

5. *Bungies*. Yet another training tool considered to be controversial. The purpose of bungies (which are actually bell boots attached together in the middle with a bungie cord similar to a hobble) it to strengthen a horse's shoulders. As one leg comes up at the trot, it is met with _resistance _by the bungie. Think about how much of a workout this is for a horse! I've used very similar devices on myself at the gym and let me tell you, my legs were sore, sore, sore for days! Bungies are really just a workout tool to condition the horse and, at my barn, are not that often used.

6. *Training, training, training.* I want to reiterate for the fourth time that almost any 'flat' horse can be trained to have some kind of action as long as you have a good trainer to help the horse through the motions. Becoming a Saddleseat horse is a huge learning curve for most horses who have only done basic English or Western, so you need to find someone patient and willing to really teach the horse the basics of moving like a Saddleseat horse. This is something that can't be rushed, otherwise your horse WILL break down physically and mentally.

Good luck! In the end, if your horse has moderate action but not anything particularly flashy, you could still show in the Pleasure classes.


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