# OTTB weight gain



## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

We recently bought an OTTB(off the track thoroughbred), and he is SUPER SKINNY. We've had him for almost a month now, and I think he's either stayed the same or lost weight. I ride him 5-7 days a week, and he's on 12% Creep Feed(about 1 large scoop) and a flake of alfalfa; morning and night. We can't seem to find any solid advice on what to feed, and how much. I don't know anything about his past, but he was definantly malnurited so we don't want to start by feeding him too much.

so any advice on what to feed and how much to give would be great! We cannot give him free choice of hay because he is boarded with 2 other horses in the pasture, so please no posts saying "free choice hay". 

Thanks!


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

You are going to get so many answers. First of all, know how much your horse weighs now and what he should weigh. REMOVE THE WORD "SCOOP" from your vocabulary and always know how much it weighs in lbs. 

Lets say your horse should weigh 1000 lbs. I would feed him 15 lbs of hay (put hay in a net and hang it on a scale) 1/2 coastal and 1/2 alfalfa and a minimum of 10lbs of grain (depends on the grain) but I really really like triple crown senior.

Free choice is best.. I would check with your barn and the other two horse owners and see if they would split the cost of a round bale with you


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

Well I'm not exactly sure how much LBS that scoop is, the one we use here at our house is different that the one where he's boarded. 'Cause we feed about 10lbs for my Appendix and about 5lbs for our pony.

What i was mainly asking(sorry, i should of been more specific), is WHAT KIND of feed we should be feeding him, how much of that and if we should maybe look into a weight gain supplement. He should be at least 1200lbs, because he's a big, 16.2hh horse.

i have a picture from a couple of days ago:


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

I board my horses also so i get the maximum hay they'll allow which is 3 flakes 2x a day. I feed purina strategy and love it. i feed him approx. 8lb a day (1 scoop am and pm). To increase intake his hay i feed him alfalfa cubes or pellets (these also come in timmothy). I find the pellets and/or cubes really helps keep the weight on my gelding.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

First, NO sweet feed! Diets high in sugar and starch will only rev up his metabolism, making him LOSE weight.

I had an OTTB and the following diet did him WONDERS!

Gaining diet:


Free Choice grass hay, or at least 25-30 lbs a day
3 lbs dry weight of shredded beet pulp (NO molasses), soaked for 15-20 minutes, then excess water drained out
3 lbs dry weight of alfalfa pellets or cubes
2 lbs of stabilized rice bran, powder or pellets
Source Focus WT supplement
any general vitamin supplement (Balance II or SmartVite Maintenance Grass are good).
If you can't give free choice grass hay or at least 25 lbs a day, then you can increase the hay pellets to 5-7 lbs a day, split into two feedings. If rice bran is too expensive for you, then you can use 1-2 cups of corn or soybean (veggie) oil.

Maintaining Diet:


Free choice grass hay, or at least 20-25 lbs a day
1.5-2.5 lbs of alfalfa pellets (1/2 to a full 2-qt feed scoop)
1/2 lb of stabilized rice bran or 1/2 cup of oil or 1 cup of milled flax
any general vitamin supplement
If you can't feed free choice grass hay, then 2-3 lbs of alfalfa pellets should do it. For the flax you can feed Omega Horseshine or NutraFlax from HorseTech.com if your feed store doesn't have bags of stabilized milled flax. You might have to add a little water to the bucket if he sifts out the powdered ingredients. 

This simple, forage based diet works WONDERS and will help calm the horse down. His metabolism will stabilize and he should keep a good weight on less food, even in hard training.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Also, have the vet out to check his teeth and make sure he's been thoroughly dewormed. Not being able to chew his food properly due to sharp points on the teeth can cause weight loss. 

Parasites will cause weight loss as well. If you don't know his deworming history, then give him 1 tube of Pyrantel Promate paste now and Ivermectin in 4 weeks. Then keep him on a good deworming rotation. With his fuzzy tail dock, he might have pin worms.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

i have a OTTB and she get two flakes in the am and two at night (mixture of alfalfa and grass hay) and she gets about 2 lbs of purina strategy and 1/2 lb of grain at night, pluss a multi vitamin)

hope that helps 

oh one more thing... if you are going to ride that much you need to bump up the feed quite a bit ..

also are you blanketing? OTTB are sensitive and if you don't blanket they are using a lot of energy to keep themselves warm. Just a thought. You can get really cheap blankets on line and that might be a good thing to try


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks a lot guys!

*luvs2ride1979:*
We were sort of on that diet with my Appendix when we lived in California, with the rice brand, flax and alfalfa... it didn't serve him any good, but he had a problem with his teeth... and the vet can only come out next month(beginning of march) to float my OTTB. He got all of his shots/vaccines when the vet came out to give him his coggins, so i don't think its parasites... and we wormed him the first day we bought him. I think we'll talk with the barn manager and the owners of the other horses and see about getting a round bale of bermuda. 

*kchfuller:*
I know we should increase it, but the barn manager does what she wants, and she only wants him on 2/3's of a scoop day and night and a flake of alfalfa day and night. And we do have a blanket(its 1200 denier, so its a winter blanket), but he's been of the track for a while now I'm guessing(his tattoo starts with an F), do you think he would still need it if he's been off for that long(probably 3-5 years)?


oh, i was looking at some weight gain supplements on smartpak, what do you guys think of them?

*weight gain:*
Fat-Cat from SmartPak Equine
Platform Weight from SmartPak Equine
Focus WT from SmartPak Equine

*coat:*
Omega Horseshine from SmartPak Equine
Red-D-Vinity - Skin & Coat Supplements from SmartPak Equine
Hoof & Health from SmartPak Equine
BioFlax 20 from SmartPak Equine

*both:*
Gleam & Gain from SmartPak Equine


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

i would still blanket, it isn't them being on or off the track that affect the way their body works with warmth. (hopefully that makes sense) Especially if he is thin to begin with, his body doesn't have the fat to keep warm. My mare gets the alfalfa when she is out of the stall or i know it's going to be a cold spell. 

Can you talk to the barn manager/owner to explain that you horse needs more to eat? or can you sneak a flake when you are out there?  hehe

Oh another thing to try if they won't feed more hay, get alfalfa cubes ... then you can feed them whenever you want 

I have really found that the blanketing has helped my mare keep her weight on, even tho i am in CA and it doesn't get that cold- she needs it.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Weight gain supplements are worthless. HAY does a lot better job and is healthier for the horse. Tell your barn manager that YOU want YOUR horse fed as much bermuda hay as he can eat, plus the alfalfa and grain she's giving. Offer to pay for the bermuda hay, or at least your share if she'll be putting round bales out in the pasture.

Add to his pellets 1 lb of rice bran and 3 lbs of soaked beet pulp. Between that and the extra hay, he should start gaining weight like mad.

If your barn manager won't accommodate your needs, then you need to find a new place to board.


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## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

Since we are already on the subject, quick question...My OTTB eats 2 flakes in the morning and at night and the vet had me put him on 4 lbs of purina complete advantage and weight builder powder. I am concerned with using the purina complete since it is so sweet. I have noticed since feeding him, he is super excitable and overreacts constantly. Is the complete making him hot? I am already taking back to basic training to deal with it, but could the underlying cause be the purina complete?


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

Okay, thanks!

I'll see about getting a lighter blanket for him to wear. He was sweating the other day when it was 55/60 out, so i guess the blanket is just too heavy.

We'll have to have a talk with our barn manager(I think she thinks we're idiots though xD) about increasing his feed. The first week he got there, she only had him on half a scoop. We feed our appendix, Rio, 2 scoops of the same brand(12% creep feed) and he's just starting to gain weight, and thats more than half of what our OTTB, Pyro's, getting while working 5x's+ a week.
it just doesn't make any sense, even to an "idiot" xD

and the other thing I'm worried about is that he's on pasture board with two other horses... I'm afraid that he won't be able to eat fast enough(he's the low man on the totem pole) to be getting any good out of it all. And we just don't have the money to keep him in a stall.
but i guess i'll have to figure that one out on my own xD


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

rosie9r said:


> Since we are already on the subject, quick question...My OTTB eats 2 flakes in the morning and at night and the vet had me put him on 4 lbs of purina complete advantage and weight builder powder. I am concerned with using the purina complete since it is so sweet. I have noticed since feeding him, he is super excitable and overreacts constantly. Is the complete making him hot? I am already taking back to basic training to deal with it, but could the underlying cause be the purina complete?


I would say the complete is DEFINITELY the cause. My past OTTB and my current TBxArab cannot have ANY molasses or corn, and oats even make/made them both hyper if they weren't in heavy training.

Many vets don't know the first thing about real nutrition, especially when dealing with food sensitivities. They just know what the feed companies tell them. Nutrition is only a one semester class in vet school ;-).

If he's eating grass hay, I would add two flakes at lunch, or up it to 3 flakes am and pm. If it's Alfalfa, I would add a meal of Bermuda, 2-3 flakes. A 1,000 lb horse should be getting 15-35 lbs of hay a day, depending on methabolism and work load. 

My Anglo gets 25-30 lbs a day of Bermuda hay plus 1.5 lbs of alfalfa pellets with 1 cup of milled flax. He gets NO grain, just a vitamin supplement. He keeps his weight on beautifully and is not hyper or spooky at all. 

He used to be a hard keeper and would jump out of his skin at the smallest thing. :? We tried every kind of feed and supplement we could get our hands on to keep weight on him without making him hot. What finally did it? Just lots and lots of the best hay we could get our hands on, lol. The grain made him more hyper, which made him lose more weight...


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## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks luvs2ride, so I will start weaning him off of the complete (I have a crapload of it left too grrr hehe!) His previous owner had him on beet pulp and corn oil (but only 2 flakes of bermuda a day). 

I will have to talk to my BO about giving him more hay, he gets half bermuda and half alfalfa (2 flakes 2x a day) right now. 

Thanks for the advice! I was staring to wonder if he was drugged when I bought him, the behavior is so different!!


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey Rosie, where do you board? I used to live in Oceanside, by 76 & University and was around some Vista & Bonsal barns.

I would increase the bermuda by a flake or two and hold the alfalfa at 2 flakes. For "goodies", give him some shredded beet pulp, soaked (1- 2qt feed scoop dry measure) with a vitamin supplement and some corn oil. That should round out his diet and give him plenty of fat and calories.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

xpyrrohs- I second all the people who have said that adding hay to his diet is essential. I prefer free choice but if it is not available to you I would suggest getting more grass hay added day and night. I would also suggest uping the protien % in what you are feeding. The horses where I board at are on Nutrena safechoice (14%) and there isn't one in the bunch that could be considered underweight. 

If you cannot work things out with your barn owner I would suggest moving. I obviously don't know your situation but I wouldn't put up with a horse as underweight as yours for long. If this is not possible you should also mention to your BO that it is a poor reflection on them to have an underweight horse on the property. Perhaps for the time being you should think about cutting down on your horse's workload until you start figuring out something that will get his weight back up.


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## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

I board at Hollys Land in Escondido. I leased out of there for a while before I bought my ottb. I live in Bonsall off the 76.  Military transplant, I am really from SC. 

Sounds like we will be buying beet pulp tomorrow and corn oil woohoo


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

Rosie, you can try strategy ... i give that to my OTTB and it isn't sweet feed, it's good for them ... just a thought.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

xpyrrohs said:


> Okay, thanks!
> 
> I'll see about getting a lighter blanket for him to wear. He was sweating the other day when it was 55/60 out, so i guess the blanket is just too heavy.
> 
> ...


Are you able to get out there everyday? if so you can give him the "extra" feed when you are there and that way the other horses can't get to it... when my mare is in pasture, she would never get her strategy and suppliments if i put it out there for all to have at... i just put it in a feeder/bucket and let her much on it while i groom her.. it's also good bonding for us


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

onetoomany said:


> xpyrrohs- I second all the people who have said that adding hay to his diet is essential. I prefer free choice but if it is not available to you I would suggest getting more grass hay added day and night. I would also suggest uping the protien % in what you are feeding. The horses where I board at are on Nutrena safechoice (14%) and there isn't one in the bunch that could be considered underweight.
> 
> If you cannot work things out with your barn owner I would suggest moving. I obviously don't know your situation but I wouldn't put up with a horse as underweight as yours for long. If this is not possible you should also mention to your BO that it is a poor reflection on them to have an underweight horse on the property. Perhaps for the time being you should think about cutting down on your horse's workload until you start figuring out something that will get his weight back up.



Thanks! I totally agree. I'm only 16, and my mom wants me riding ever single day. Whenever i try to explain things like that, i get treated like i don't WANT to ride, when I'm thinking about the horse and his well being. My mom thinks she knows everything because she USED to ride back when god know when, and whenever she gets advice, its usually from an unreliable source(not trying to bad mouth my mom, but its true).

But we're going to have a chat with our barn owner tomorrow after school about his diet and drive up to the feed store to look at rice bran and flax seed. We're also going to see if we can get a round bale for him and his "buddies" to share.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Just keep in mind that a round bale will last 2 horses about 10-14 days if they have access to it all day ;-).


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

haha, yeah, i know xD
my other horse and his pasture pony go through about 2 a month.


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## brokencinch (Jan 6, 2009)

Beet pulp, bermuda blend pellets,Soaked in water, rice bran and corn meal added has put the weight back on our 2 horses that were very skinny when we got them, we also give them bermuda/alfafa mixed hay during the day, It takes time but they are coming around, we currently are not riding them much due to their weight being so low but exercise them daily with walks on leadrope, we also supplement them with weight builder. hope this helps ya and get the weight back on him


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## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

And strategy wont make him hot? I had read some reviews that it did on some horses...I want to eliminate anything that could make him hyper. (and less manageable)...?


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## ShowJumpLife (Jan 17, 2009)

I used to work with rescues so i know allot about getting weight on.
the best way is.

a lot of rugs.
a bale of hay a day

and
2kgs shredded beet pulp(NO MOLLASIS!!)
2kgs extruded rice
2kgs some sort of elderly horse feed with no grain or mollasis
1 cup corn oil
1 cup fresh crushed lindseed
some sort of mineral suppliment.

split that into 3 feeds a day.
usualy 7am 1.30pm and 7pm works really well.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

rosie9r said:


> And strategy wont make him hot? I had read some reviews that it did on some horses...I want to eliminate anything that could make him hyper. (and less manageable)...?


it has never made me OTTB mare hot and I asked at the feed store for a good addition to her diet that wasn't "sugary" ... just a thought


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

rosie9r said:


> And strategy wont make him hot? I had read some reviews that it did on some horses...I want to eliminate anything that could make him hyper. (and less manageable)...?


A vitamin supplement is safer, and DEFINITELY won't make him hot ;-). You have to feed quite a bit of strategy for full nutritional value. If you feed less than the recommended amount, you'd have to feed a vitamin supplement anyway!

And really, when you think about it, how can they make a "good" feed with all that nutrition, yet it's so cheap? It's about the same price or cheaper than plain whole oats right now... I'll tell you how, by using "sweepings" and "leavings" as the bulk of the pellet, basically stuff off the floor that I personally wouldn't feed to a goat... Or the byproducts from the ethanol and beer brewing industries, "brewers grains". It's not the grain itself, but the left overs that would normally be thrown away or made into pig chow.... Doesn't sound like a good thing to feed to me. :-?

I like to feed whole foods, that I know exactly what they are and where they came from. My alfalfa pellets use rice bran as the binding agent, no animal fat or molasses. Beet pulp is just beet pulp, one ingredient, plus possibly a preservative (read the tag to make sure it's not animal fat or molasses). A good vitamin supplement will use soy, flax, or ground alfalfa as the base (read the ingredients to check!) with no fillers or byproducts.


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

I"m sure everyone on her has thier own opinions on different feeds. I've personally used stratedy and have had great results with it and i don't feed excessive amounts. They have reformulated it and its alot better than years ago. I have not found it to cause any hyperness in any of my horses. Just a question, isn't beet pulp a product of the sugar making process as it comes from the sugar beet?


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Yes, beet pulp is the leftovers from sugar beets, but all of the sugar (and much of the nutrients) has been leeched out of it. What's left is a low protein, high fiber shred. You can buy it in the pelleted or shredded form. I prefer shredded as it doesn't take as long to soak and is less processed. Beet pulp doesn't have a lot of nutrients, but it's got some protein and plenty of calories, and it's not that high in digestible energy (about the same as alfalfa hay). Protein is around 8-10%.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> A vitamin supplement is safer, and DEFINITELY won't make him hot ;-). You have to feed quite a bit of strategy for full nutritional value. If you feed less than the recommended amount, you'd have to feed a vitamin supplement anyway!
> 
> And really, when you think about it, how can they make a "good" feed with all that nutrition, yet it's so cheap? It's about the same price or cheaper than plain whole oats right now... I'll tell you how, by using "sweepings" and "leavings" as the bulk of the pellet, basically stuff off the floor that I personally wouldn't feed to a goat... Or the byproducts from the ethanol and beer brewing industries, "brewers grains". It's not the grain itself, but the left overs that would normally be thrown away or made into pig chow.... Doesn't sound like a good thing to feed to me. :-?
> 
> I like to feed whole foods, that I know exactly what they are and where they came from. My alfalfa pellets use rice bran as the binding agent, no animal fat or molasses. Beet pulp is just beet pulp, one ingredient, plus possibly a preservative (read the tag to make sure it's not animal fat or molasses). A good vitamin supplement will use soy, flax, or ground alfalfa as the base (read the ingredients to check!) with no fillers or byproducts.


wow the stuff off the ground .. kind of harsh.

we each have our opinions of what works best for our horses .. maybe be a little kinder and realize that just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you have to bash it.

I have found it works well ... but to each his/her own.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

I've had the best results in putting weight on OTTBs from TONS of experience with the rescue....

First, most OTTBs go through a "let down" period where their bodies strip out all the steroids and/or any other performance enhancing supplements that they may have in their system. The bad thing is that as they go through this detox so to speak, the steroids will also pull out the good nutrients with the bad which can mean continued weight loss despite increased feed amounts, hair loss, skin issues (such as rain rot, etc.), overall weakened immune system, and so on.

During this time frame, we supplemented with a good vit E supp to help cleanse the system as well as any other immune support and some oil and possibly red cell depending on the individual horse (as they can become anemic as well). Fat cat also has worked wonders for horses in this condition, as it contains both probiotics as well as amino acids, so unlike some weight building supps, it's not just a "filler" but actually good complimentary nutrition for a horse coming through a let down period.

As they got better, we kept the fat cat as long as they needed it, but were able to reduce the vit e, and red cell and anything else as they were able to sustain their own immune system and put on weight again - usually this time fram is characterized by their energy level increasing, their coat looking better, and their eyes getting brighter.

Feed (as up to this point I was just talking about supplements) is also important. Stabilized rice bran pellets - I like EquiJewel - is high fat with lower risk of founder that can happen both in detox as well as from overfeeding. In addition, a high quality pellets (NO SWEET FEED) and if necessary a complete feed (such as Triple Crown Complete or Blue Seal Racer) that is higher protien and fat will help the horse move through the detox period into the maintenence period. Once the horse is healthy and putting on weight at a decent rate (not too fast!) you can start to cut out the complete first, and then eventually even the rice bran and get the horse to a good quality pelleted feed - usually b/t 10 - 12% protein depending on the level of work they are in, with about 6 - 8% fat. A naturally lean horse will need a higher fat content to maintain weight.

Hope that helps. For some good supplement ideas as well as to look over what I suggested above, check out Equisupps.com - think smartpak, but cheaper, with more options and more custom blends (as well as custom blends on request), free shipping, and a poriton of each order goes towards a horse rescue. For feeds, I like Blue Seal & Triple Crown best. Good luck!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> And really, when you think about it, how can they make a "good" feed with all that nutrition, yet it's so cheap? It's about the same price or cheaper than plain whole oats right now... I'll tell you how, by using "sweepings" and "leavings" as the bulk of the pellet, basically stuff off the floor that I personally wouldn't feed to a goat... Or the byproducts from the ethanol and beer brewing industries, "brewers grains". It's not the grain itself, but the left overs that would normally be thrown away or made into pig chow.... Doesn't sound like a good thing to feed to me. :-?


You cannot be serious? Accusing Nutrena and Purina of using sweepings?

As a point of reference, how many horses do you feed?


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Pretty much EVERYTHING we feed to our animals is some kind of byproduct. Also Beet Pulp doesn't need to be soaked unless your horse has problems chewing.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Purina and Nutrena are the WORST of the "name brand" feeds .. Purina has THREE fixed formulas and I don't think Nutrena has any .. none that I have found anyway... 

To add weight free choice hay is the first thing to provide
then high quality nutrition that is LOW in NSC .. anything over 20% can and often WILL make a horse hot.. 

things to add to the above is more help is still needed... 

beet pulp... easy to digest forage product get it molasses free IF you can, the amount of molasses in it varies greatly it is used to reduce dust from it

Alfalfa pellets/cubes 

Rice Bran .. this is considered a fat supplement but does not work for all horses!!

Oats up to 3lbs a day but can also make some horses hot

make sure teeeth and deworming are both Up to Date!!!


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

Well i think people need to re do your research as Purina strategy and Nutrena Safe Choice are both low NSC feed's . I'm so sick of people bashing what others do. And i don't know where some people are from but Strategy and Safe Choice are no where near the same cost as plain oats. Also Beet pulp may work for some but it also is a by-product of the sugar making process as we have a plant near us and no matter what they say there still will be some sugar left in the by-product. So why don't we just say you don't use a product instead of bashing it saying its the "WORST" product out there. No horses are the same, what works for one may not work for another. I guess what i'm saying is that if I feed one way and Peggysue does it another way it doesn't make either of us wrong, we just do what works for our horses.


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## LauraB (Nov 11, 2008)

I have always had good results with Strategy and Safechoice. Until someone presents CONCRETE facts and numbers obtained from a creditable and stated sources I will continue to think that way. Let's all remember that rumors and opinions and true facts are very different things.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Peggysue said:


> Purina and Nutrena are the WORST of the "name brand" feeds ..


Qualify that statement - with backup please.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

give me a few to find teh RESEARCH not feed company affilated (Lost my links when I fried) my hard drive 

Low NSC is IMO anything BELOW 20% netierh fo theses feeds fit that 

fixed formula makes a quality feed... neither of these feeds fit there either 

Be back with research to back it


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

But those links do not say negative things specifically about Nutrena and Purnia being the 'worst' feeds.

That is your personal opinion. Which you are entitled to - just as the rest of us are.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

toosleepy, laura and mls ... i guess that we have to rise above ... we know what works for us and lets be the bigger person bashing is just immature


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

no those links tell you how to read the tags which you should be doing... before feeding ANY feed it is easy to google and find the information from NONBIAS people and research


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

kchfuller said:


> wow the stuff off the ground .. kind of harsh.
> 
> we each have our opinions of what works best for our horses .. maybe be a little kinder and realize that just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you have to bash it.
> 
> I have found it works well ... but to each his/her own.


It's not harsh, it's true. How else can they make a highly processed feed CHEAPER than an unprocessed whole grain? Processing foods generally makes them more expensive than a whole food, UNLESS you START with a very VERY low quality, low priced product. It's very simple economics or business principles. 

Think about it. How does Wal-Mart keep prices so low? By buying CHEAP imported products from China. The parts/pieces/materials are cheap, labor is cheap, importing is cheap. Compare those products with quality items made in the USA or Europe, or homemade items (for things you can make at home like clothing). There IS NO comparison. Quality items don't break or wear out like the cheap crud you buy at Wal-Mart. When I was a kid, a pair of USA made Levis jeans got passed down through 3-4 different kids before they finally wore out... Now, to compete with other cheap demin, Levis are no better than the crud you buy at Wal-Mart...

For food, cheap processed food is NOT as healthy as whole foods. If you ate at fast food joints and only processed foods (like cereal, hot pockets, canned fruit & veggies, etc.) you could meet your basic calorie requirements and most of your basic nutritional needs. But how healthy do you think you'd really be? How healthy would you be in the LONG term?! Why do you think Obesity, Heart problems, Type II Diabetes, and Cancer are such problems here in the USA?

This is another post by someone in response to Purina's RECALL on horse feed. Do you all remember that? Any, she has some good thoughs, and lists the ingredients of Strategy for you. From this web site: Purina Horse Feed Recall | Lots of good comments in that story.



> Unfortunately, most horse and pet owners don’t know how to even read the label and therefore are uninformed about the ingredients their pets/horses are getting. Just for a case in point, let’s look at the ingredients list for Purina Strategy horse feed:
> INGREDIENTS:
> PROCESSED GRAIN BY-PRODUCTS, GRAIN PRODUCTS, FORAGE PRODUCTS, MOLASSES PRODUCTS, SOYBEAN OIL, PLANT PROTEIN PRODUCTS, CALCIUM CARBONATE, SALT, CALCIUM LIGNIN SULFONATE, L-LYSINE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, DL-METHIONINE, ANISE/FENUGREEK FLAVOR, VITAMIN B-12 SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT, MANGANOUS OXIDE, ZINC OXIDE, NIACIN SUPPLEMENT, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, COPPER SULFATE, CALCIUM IODATE, MAGNESIUM OXIDE, FERROUS SULFATE, MINERAL OIL, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, SODIUM SELENITE.​Keeping in mind that the first ingredients listed are usually the most prominent in the mix. So, Grain By-Products….something that’s leftover when the good part of the grain is processed and used for something else. Yummy!
> 
> Now, another interesting fact is they don’t even have the ingredients or a full guaranteed analysis on their site. You must email them, often numerous times to get this info. Why is that? So it’s harder for someone to analyze their products!


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Bottom line, horses are herbivores. Herbivores are meant to digest plant products. Horses' guts are specifically designed to digest high fiber grass/forage and hay products. Small amounts of grains, tree bark, fruits, nuts, etc. can be consumed with no problems, but the BULK (90%) of a horse's diet should consist of grass and/or hay (or hay products).

Sticking to a simple, forage based diet just make SENSE for a horse. One pound or so of oats or feed is probably fine, but otherwise, the horse should be getting some form of grass. Throw in a little vitamins and minerals to round out your horse's diet, maybe a little fat if your horse doesn't get fresh grazing, and waa laa! You have a healthy horse. It is THAT simple folks. Feed and supplement companies want to make you THINK that feeding horses is difficult or complex, but it's not.


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

Like i've said before we all have our different opinions on feeds. I would suggest you go get a new tag from a strategy bag as what you have listed doesn't match the bags i just got. To bad i didn't keep bags . and also in researching dog foods and horse foods the Government does not regulate animal feed lables like they do human food labels. In all the links posted today some say that the ingredients that have the most quantity are listed first, second and third, and others say "usually". I agree they are getting alot better and most manufactuers are starting to list the ingredients this way, but not always do. Not all horses can live out side 24/7 and graze, its just not practical in some situations.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

toosleepy said:


> and also in researching dog foods and horse foods the Government does not regulate animal feed lables like they do human food labels. In all the links posted today some say that the ingredients that have the most quantity are listed first, second and third, and others say "usually".


That is just one more reason to only feed whole foods. You can very simply feed a stalled horse a forage based diet. 

You start with grass hay or mixed grass hay. You give 2-3% of the horse's body weight a day in that hay, split in to 2-3 feedings.

Next, you add some alfalfa or other type of hay pellets to the horse's diet 1-7 lbs depending on work load and the horse's metabolism. Hay pellets provide concentrated calories and more nutrients than grass hay. Alfalfa has the most protein and amino acids, and really is best for supplementation. If you're feeding 5-7 lbs a day, you can use a blended pellet that uses alfalfa with timothy or bermuda. Make sure the pellet does NOT contain molasses or animal fat.

Next you add a vitamin supplement. Choose one that compliments the hay you're feeding.

The last ingredient is a source of Omega 3 fatty acids, which are deficient in hay. Flax is one of the best sources, whole, milled, or oil form. Other sources include hemp oil, rice bran, and black oil sunflower seeds. You don't need much of any of these, 0.5 to 1 cup of whole or milled flax, or of BOSS. 1-2 oz (tbsp) of any of the oils. 1/4-1/2 lb of ground or pelleted rice bran.

You can add some water to your mix if your horse likes to sift his feed end you're not feeding any oils.

So, now you have a complete and balanced diet and you know EXACTLY what your horse is eating. No recalls, no mold, no byproducts.

This diet has made my horses calmer, my mare's heats are easier to deal with, my spooky gelding is more laid back, my fat mare holds a better weight, my hard keeper gelding holds a better weight on LESS food, and both horses have shiny coats, even when dirty or in the winter.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

Luvs2 ... we all understand that you don't like Strategy ... it is OK for other people to disagree with you and feed it to their horse. if i was feeding rat killer then you could get in my face about it but i think XPY was asking everyone what they have had success with. We have each shared out opinions, which we are all entitled to ... just try and be nice please- it's ok to agree to disagree 

Also here are the ingredients:
Crude Protein (Min.) 14.0%
Crude Fat (Min.)n 6.0%
Crude Fiber (Max.) 8.0%
Calcium (Min.) .6%
Calcium (Max.) .9%
Copper (Min.) 55 ppm
Zinc (Min.) 220 ppm
Selenium (Min.) 0.6 ppm
Vitamin A (Min.) 3,000 IU/lb.

Notice like toosleepy said the one with the highest content is at the top ...


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Those are not ingredients, that is the guaranteed analysis OF the ingredients. That is the analysis of what the ingredients provide. The protein has to come from somewhere. You can't just add "protein" to a feed. There are many forms of protein. 

The protein content in some pet foods was boosted by using the toxic chemical melamine (melanine?), which was also found in Milk and Baby formula in China. It is NOT a quality source of protein. It simply elevates the protein content when the food is tested, but it that protein doesn't actually go to the animal (or person) when the food is consumed.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-19-pet-food-usat_N.htm
http://www.fda.gov/oc/opacom/hottopics/petfood.html


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

wow you are a sassy one ... haha

you need a profession that lets your argue since you seem to like to do it ...


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

How many animals does a company have to kill to be considered not good?? 100?? 10000?? Purina has killed that many PLUS in the years... all they have gonig for them is HYPE and good marketing. Why would you want to use a feed that changes with EVERY batch depending on what they can get cheapest??


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

I understand your point peggysue but tell me or show me where purina HORSE feed has killed a horse in the past years?


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

a bag of Strategy cost $20 here in CA ... i wouldn't call that cheap


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

**** I will tell you here the same I told you in the other thread do YOUR research .. Purina does not do voluntary recalls they only recall when there are deaths


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

so i guess you don't eat any processed foods?


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## Barebackrider (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow he is skinny try linseed meal it's a super food where do you live I know you can get it from horseland (www.horseland.com.au )Good luck it's good for sticking on weight. Ireland


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

toosleepy said:


> so i guess you don't eat any processed foods?


I try not to eat much, not for any significant part of my diet. For breakfast I did have cereal, with milk and 100% orange juice. For snack I had a snack size snickers. For lunch I had a burger and fries, 100% beef burger. For afternoon snack I had some pita chips a cheesey dip stuff. And for dinner I had chicken breast, long grain rice, and broccoli. 

The difference is, we are OMNIVORES. Our digestive tract is made to digest any number of things, raw, whole, or processed. It's healthier to eat as much whole foods as possible, which I try and do, but it can also be expensive. 

However, feeding my horse a whole food diet is actually cheaper than feeding them a processed diet (or about the same) and I know they're getting healthier foods. Why NOT do it??

Just because some feed bag works NOW does NOT mean that it's healthy or that it will work 5 years from now.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

kchfuller said:


> wow you are a sassy one ... haha
> 
> you need a profession that lets your argue since you seem to like to do it ...


I'm a college teacher. It lets me be the boss over 20 some-odd people at a time, lol. Yup, works well for me . I teach computers though (basics and web design), so not much to argue there; it's all pretty cut and dry.

I was going to be a lawyer, but I just couldn't get past having to defend or argue for guilty people. I do have a politic science degree. Maybe I'll run for something one day, lol.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> I'm a college teacher. It lets me be the boss over 20 some-odd people at a time, lol. Yup, works well for me . I teach computers though (basics and web design), so not much to argue there; it's all pretty cut and dry.
> 
> I was going to be a lawyer, but I just couldn't get past having to defend or argue for guilty people. I do have a politic science degree. Maybe I'll run for something one day, lol.


I am a project manager so I am all about customer service and realizing that there is more then one way to do things and finding the best for the customer... guess that is why we have the personalities we have


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## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

Wow, the animosity in here hehe  SO on a positive note, I have switched my OTTB to 3 flakes bermuda am and pm, 3 lbs beet pulp, 3 lbs bermuda/alfalfa pellets, and 1-2 cups of rice bran a day. No molasses! The giant horse is definately missing his molasses but he pretty much will eat anything so thats nice. I went with this schedule since I can not free feed him and our pastures are pretty much just dirt, so no grass during turnout. I took a before picture..hopefully it will upload. 

Lets see what happens in a few months!


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## fireinthedisco (Feb 17, 2009)

How long has he been OTT? Try some vitamin and mineral supplements a good wormer or two and alot of forage more than grain, I have found these very useful for most of the TB"s I have had


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

you really NEED a vitamin/mineral supplement and more protien to build muscle.


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

Purina is a fantastic company and have no idea why you are bad mouthing them. Horsemans Edge 14% is like crack and I give that to my horses when shows are coming up. And it has worked fine for me with no complaints.


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## xpyrrohs (Feb 16, 2009)

Barebackrider said:


> Wow he is skinny try linseed meal it's a super food where do you live I know you can get it from horseland (www.horseland.com.au )Good luck it's good for sticking on weight. Ireland


thanks!
and yes, he is VERY skinny...
he seems to have put on a little bit of weight since we first got him though... we've been giving him flax seed and ricebran and it seems to be working.

we live in Oklahoma, i think we're going to see how he does with the rice bran before we go with anything else...
and our BO said we could bring a round bale if we want... but now my mom is having second thoughts about getting it.... even though she spent like, 30minutes arguing with her about it.
-.-


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

we all want our horses acting like they are on crack ****


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

Its a figure of speech, something you did not understand.

Can someone clue me in as to what **** means?


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

How to pick the best feed for your horse regardless of brand...


Lets say your horse should weigh 500kgs/1100lbs (were going to say moderate work) your horse REQUIRES approx.

24.6 Mcal of Digestible Energy
984 gm of Protein
34 gm of Lysine
30 gm of Calcium
21 gm of Phosphorus

1st calculate the roughage part of the diet. Lets say your feeding 2nd cutting bermuda hay.

This hay provides you with approx .89 mcals per lb and you would need 22 lbs of hay to meet this need alone. It provides 10.9% Protein, Lysine is basically unknown or very small amounts. .3 % Calcium and it barely meets this requirement and it doesn't quite meet the phosphorus requirement but falls with in normal ca ratios.

I could go on and on, but I would feed 22 lbs of hay and 1lb of any commercial grain product to make sure you adqeuately cover your other nutrients. Yes there are pros and cons to commerical feed products but supplements can be expensive and unpalatable. Since this board is on a "regulation of feed companies" kick, supplements are not regulated at all and break down sitting on the shelf waiting for you to buy it. Free choice water and salt is also ideal.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

1 lb of most commercial grains will NOT cover nutrient requirements with 22 lbs of Bermuda hay. You need to follow the recommendations of the bag based on your horse's weight, workload, and hay type/amount. If you feed less than what's recommended, then you need to add a vitamin/mineral supplement.

You can feed just 1 lb of a Ration Balancer, which is an ultra concentrated pelleted feed meant to be fed at the rate of 1-3 lbs per day, depending on the feed and the horse. Feeding a Ration Balancer is a safe way to feed less feed, but still give the horse adequate nutrition.

As for protein, most horses require 10% daily. Good Bermuda should be 8-10% protein. Beet pulp is around the same. Alfalfa is 15-17% protein, generally speaking. Alfalfa is also high in amino acids, which helps compensate for the lack in bermuda. 

I do agree Rosie, that you should add a vitamin supplement to the mix. Something like Select II, Grand Vite, or any other general vitamin supplement should be fine.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

MagnoliaBar said:


> Its a figure of speech, something you did not understand.
> 
> Can someone clue me in as to what **** means?


 
at 42% NSC yes Horsemen's Edge is like crack to a horse loaded with sugars and starches!! 

**** = Laughing my a** off


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

I have never had a problem with Horseman's Edge and have been using it for sometime and all my top horses have run good from it.

By the way Bermuda is not very good hay at all, just for the record. Alfalfa is the best hay to feed just as long as you know how to feed it, which most people have no clue how much Alfalfa to give to their horses.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

MagnoliaBar said:


> I have never had a problem with Horseman's Edge and have been using it for sometime and all my top horses have run good from it.


Sure, if you're feeding not a lot of hay and "running" your horses enough to work all that sugary candy feed off, then yeah, the horses will do "fine" on it.



> By the way Bermuda is not very good hay at all, just for the record. Alfalfa is the best hay to feed just as long as you know how to feed it, which most people have no clue how much Alfalfa to give to their horses.


:roll: Bermuda is a fine hay, IF you buy it from a farmer that fertilizes his fields and stores hay inside or under cover. It has good nutrients, decent protein, and is high in fiber. It is fine for most pleasure or non-working horses without any extra feed. Mixed grass hay is best (Bermuda mixed with local grasses, clover, etc.), but plain old Bermuda is fine too. There are even hybrid strains of Bermuda that are even better, like Tifton 44 and Coastal Bermuda.

Alfalfa is a fine hay, actually a Legume hay, but it needs to be fed in smaller quantities and carefully. It has a HIGH calcium rate and not enough phosphorus, which can be bad, especially for foals or pregnant mares. However, if you pair it with the right feed, to balance the calcium/phosphorous ratio, then it's fine. But, because it is so rich and high in digestible energy, you can't really feed all that much of it. So, you can end up with "bored" horses who may develop vices such as cribbing or wood chewing. Feeding lots of grass hay, or supplementing Alfalfa with grass hay, will help keep boredom to a minimum and increase the fiber intake of the horse.

Personally, I like the diet of lots of bermuda hay with a little Alfalfa. We don't grow Alfalfa here in Arkansas because of the risk of Blister Beetles, so I feed pellets or chopped/bagged alfalfa. 

I grew up in San Diego. Out there Alfalfa was/is the "norm" for horses. Mine were fed two meals a day of Alfalfa plus Bermuda for "lunch." They got some vitamins mixed in with beet pulp and rice bran, to help stabilize the CA ratio and round out their diet. They did fine on it, though I had to keep them in work, otherwise they would get too hyper or start misbehaving.


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## county (Nov 29, 2008)

We feed a alfalfa/brome/orchard grass mix free choice to all our young stock and bred mares in their last trimester and love the results.


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> Sure, if you're feeding not a lot of hay and "running" your horses enough to work all that sugary candy feed off, then yeah, the horses will do "fine" on it.
> 
> :roll: Bermuda is a fine hay, IF you buy it from a farmer that fertilizes his fields and stores hay inside or under cover. It has good nutrients, decent protein, and is high in fiber. It is fine for most pleasure or non-working horses without any extra feed. Mixed grass hay is best (Bermuda mixed with local grasses, clover, etc.), but plain old Bermuda is fine too. There are even hybrid strains of Bermuda that are even better, like Tifton 44 and Coastal Bermuda.
> 
> ...


Agreed other than the fact Bermuda hay is not that good at all. But that is the way I see and understand others see things different.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

actually all research shows that timothy is the best horse hay


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

What a terrific debate. The horse world is so opinionated regarding just about everything from horse care to training techniques, riding styles, breed preferences and lineage! There are alot of different types of advice that will work for all sorts of horses here.

I've been reading through the suggestions and I believe I've either tried them or known someone that has. It's funny. I have a barn of 6 horses. There was a time when everyone was on the same feed and hay (maybe different portions) and it worked great. But as they age and mature, their health needs change. I took some advice from Peggy sue for my older boys and have gotten terrific results.

I also have my own preferences for my others. I have no problem with purina products, I have no problem with nutreana products either. I believe this discussion should continue in a mature and educational manner. Please refrain from any type of name calling as there are so many ways to properly feed a horse... We all have our preferences. Some are great for ME or YOU... but not for HIM or HER. Remember that when posting... and keep the conscientious ettiquette policy in mind.....

Happy debating!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey Farmpony have you been taking pictures?? We wanna see them LOL


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh gosh. I'll try to do that tomorrow. You will be amazed! Pistols backbone is almost completely out of site now. His ribs are GONE... and the old black horse is bordering on fat!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Glad to here that you need ot do a before and after thread!! and we can all post, it will help people see what others have used and the results we all have


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## fireinthedisco (Feb 17, 2009)

I am based in Australia but what might also help you is myfeedxl.com it is a website that you enter your horses details (age weight work breed) and it gives you a balanced diet for them.

It takes in tyour pasture type as well, however I am unsure wether it will be any use for you if you are in USA, as I know they have alot of Australian products in there, but please try it and see how you go! 

Best of luck!


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> What a terrific debate. The horse world is so opinionated regarding just about everything from horse care to training techniques, riding styles, breed preferences and lineage! There are alot of different types of advice that will work for all sorts of horses here.
> 
> I've been reading through the suggestions and I believe I've either tried them or known someone that has. It's funny. I have a barn of 6 horses. There was a time when everyone was on the same feed and hay (maybe different portions) and it worked great. But as they age and mature, their health needs change. I took some advice from Peggy sue for my older boys and have gotten terrific results.
> 
> ...


I understand but there are still plenty of people out there that need to be put in the right direction.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Excuse me, I mis-spoke it would take 25 lbs of bermuda to meet all their needs even though 22 lbs + 1lb would meet every need except for Digestible Energy which is very important of course when we are talking about weight in which 22lbs and 2 lbs of grain would probably do the trick but I'm not going to call feed companies to get the latest estimated DE levels to make sure. 





luvs2ride1979 said:


> 1 lb of most commercial grains will NOT cover nutrient requirements with 22 lbs of Bermuda hay. You need to follow the recommendations of the bag based on your horse's weight, workload, and hay type/amount. If you feed less than what's recommended, then you need to add a vitamin/mineral supplement.
> 
> You can feed just 1 lb of a Ration Balancer, which is an ultra concentrated pelleted feed meant to be fed at the rate of 1-3 lbs per day, depending on the feed and the horse. Feeding a Ration Balancer is a safe way to feed less feed, but still give the horse adequate nutrition.
> 
> ...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MagnoliaBar said:


> I understand but there are still plenty of people out there that need to be put in the right direction.


Which is why it's wonderful to have "old-timers" like you on the board. You've been around for many years and I'm sure you have some great tried and true methods that you believe in and can share. (in all departments of horse care/training).


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## MagnoliaBar (Feb 20, 2009)

I appreciate that.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

starlinestables said:


> Excuse me, I mis-spoke it would take 25 lbs of bermuda to meet all their needs even though 22 lbs + 1lb would meet every need except for Digestible Energy which is very important of course when we are talking about weight in which 22lbs and 2 lbs of grain would probably do the trick but I'm not going to call feed companies to get the latest estimated DE levels to make sure.


Bermuda and 1 or 2 lbs of feed won't cover the nutritional requirements of a horse, unless that feed is a ration balancer (super concentrated feed). You might get the Digestible Energy requirement met, but there is much more to horse nutrition than that. A simple vitamin/mineral supplement along with your 1-2 lbs of feed should do it, but really, 1-2 lbs of alfalfa pellets or plain whole oats a long with the vitamins would work as well, and be healthier for the horse. The alfalfa provides extra protein and amino acids that are deficient in bermuda hay.


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## county (Nov 29, 2008)

I totally agree some need to be shown the right direction for feeding especially new horse owners. But one must keep in mind theres more then one right direction.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree with that. Especially since horses are like people.... no 2 are alike....


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I have only read to first page so have no idea what advice you've been given but.... 

WHY Are you riding him? He is thin! 7 days a week? I recently acquired a few off track boys myself but riding is OUT OF THE QUESTION until they are at the proper weight.

Two flakes of hay daily, I do not care what the type, Will feed his left front hoof on a good day and is unacceptable. 
Read up on what to feed Off Track Thoroughbreds, Google it. You will find page after page of "...Free choice high quality hay" "...Expect to feed HEAPS of hay" If you aren't able to offer free choice GOOD LUCK putting weight on him, Find a way to feed him properly, two flakes a day is what you feed a Miniature Horse.

Along with free choice good quality hay, He should be worked up to easily three, 3 QT scoops of soaked beet pulp a day. Three, 3 QT scoops of a good, quality, "Complete Feed" Such as Purina Equine Senior, Triple Crown Complete. He should be on a weight building supplement to ad calories and worked up to 3/4 cup of corn oil. Rice bran works great. Alfalfa cubes work great. He should NOT BE RIDDEN if you want him to gain weight, certainly NO Thoroughbred should be put to work under saddle on two flakes of hay a day? 

Also.... Be careful of boarding stables and the barn manager feeding what she wants to feed. Nearly every boarding stable I go to these days has under weight horses, If they can get by skimping on feed they will, its your horse - BUY EXTRA AND FEED HIM if you have to. Boarding stables WILL NOT PUT WEIGHT ON YOUR HORSE FOR YOU it costs triple to pack on pounds, they cannot make money doing this. He will continue to loose weight with you riding him in bad condition and him not being fed properly. I've pulled skinny Thoroughbreds from boarding stables who claim the horse has a problem but they do not, It just costs them more to feed a Thoroughbred than a short stocky QH would eat and they get paid the same per month to do so, In conclusion the horse looses weight.


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