# What do you think my color chances are?



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Assuming the colors are correct on AllBreedPedigree...

Buckskin, palomino, smokey black, bay, chestnut/sorrel, black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kenda (Oct 10, 2008)

You have a 50% chance of a black base and 50% of a red base. Bay is unknown as the chestnuts/sorrels in the pedigrees could all carry it without showing, but at minimum a 50% chance of getting it thanks to the buckskin.

And 50% chance of a cream gene passed on to make a smoky black, buckskin or palomino.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

So it looks like a pretty much have a 50% of getting almost anything? (except a grey of course) The Chocolate Chic Olena is more of a chocolate but they don't put that in the All Breed. S&S has so much Palomino in her. So exciting. I believe I am going with this guy.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

If you could look up progeny colors on the stallion, you can get an idea of his chances of carrying agouti. His pedigree is almost all chestnut/red based and those that are black based are listed as bay/brown so there could be a lot of agouti getting passed secretly through the red based horses. Most of the foals listed as progeny on allbreed do not have a color listed. There is one foal listed as black/brown but I throw that color out the window as the dam is listed as sorrel. If the stallion only has bay/brown/buckskin foals out of every black based mare, it is then likely that he is homozygous agouti and cannot sire blacks out of black based mares. 

If the stallion or mare is homozygous agouti, color choices are evenly split between 25% chance bay/brown, 25% chance buckskin/brownskin, 25% palomino and 25% chance chestnut/sorrel. 

The stallion you seem to have settled on is really nice (I would call his color liver chestnut), I like him and think he could cross beautifully with your mare


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

He does have some Pali progeny, at least looking through the sale horses on the ranches website, and those were crosses with Shining Spark mares, although I do not know the color of those mares. He is a lovely stallion and I think she will end up with a beautiful, well put together, talented baby no matter what color it is.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> He does have some Pali progeny, at least looking through the sale horses on the ranches website, and those were crosses with Shining Spark mares, although I do not know the color of those mares. He is a lovely stallion and I think she will end up with a beautiful, well put together, talented baby no matter what color it is.


Any palomino foal by him is palomino because the dam carried at least one cream and passed it to the foal as well as a red gene to add to the stallion's red gene. All this stallion can do color wise is pass a red gene (he is homozygous red) and possibly add some white chrome. Any black based foal has to get a black gene from the dam, which means the dam must be black based. Your beautiful buckskin mare is black based, has a 50% chance of passing that black gene since she has only one black gene from her one black based parent. She also only has one cream gene and so has a 50% chance to pass that to a foal to dilute the coat to palomino, buckskin or smokey black. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

*Shine and Spin and Dun Roostin*

Update on my mare. Negative 5 panel so we are on our way. Breeding this weekend. My mare, Shine and Spin with the baby daddy -- Dun Roostin. I believe the color options are unlimited! What do you think?


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> Update on my mare. Negative 5 panel so we are on our way. Breeding this weekend. My mare, Shine and Spin with the baby daddy -- Dun Roostin. I believe the color options are unlimited! What do you think?


Tried hunting around for the stallion on google but couldn't find much at all. According to allbreedpedigree, he is either not dun or his dam's lineage is mislabeled for colors as she has a line of cream based parentage as the only dilutes in her lineage (palominos and buckskins tracing back through one line but no duns listed anywhere to make her a dun as she is listed as dun doesn't hide (unless covered by grey or on pintos with very large amounts of white and dun doesn't skip generations). Color identification is often incorrect on horses as they are registered as foals in an immature coat color (sometimes owners/breeders are just bad at identifying color not matter the horse's age) and they get registered and called a color they are not. A bay foal with strong countershading can easily be called a dun but all that "dun factor" vanishes as they go through coat sheds. From the few pictures I did find, I would guess that the stallion is a bay not a dun. On allbreed he has a sorrel foal so if that is right, he is heterozygous black and your color options are 12.5% for chestnut, 12.5% for palomino and a 75% chance of a black based foal (bay, buckskin, black or smokey black). Chance of black or smokey black depends on agouti, if either parent is homozygous agouti, you won't get black or smokey black but have a 37.5% chance of buckskin and a 37.5% chance of bay.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

#SunnyDraco you are a wealth of knowledge. I am about to call the breeder. I will ask him his color again. I swear he said Red Dun. The mare is not a dun. Dun Roostin father is a Bay. I will update when I speak with him. Thanks for your input. It's really so interesting. If there weren't so many costs already with breeding, I would get the genetic test done to find out more about her colors. But you are right...the All Breed Pedigrees are the most trust worth. Here is a link to his auction page. Dun Roostin : CNYRHA Northeast Breeders Trust 2014-2015


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

Okay, just got off the phone with breeder and he is a Red Dun. Pictures are all in black and white. He has a very dark dorsal stripe. He said if he didn't have the stripe he would all most be a buckskin. Not sure why he gets listed as a bay. But All Breed Pedigree has you put the information in.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> Okay, just got off the phone with breeder and he is a Red Dun. Pictures are all in black and white. He has a very dark dorsal stripe. He said if he didn't have the stripe he would all most be a buckskin. Not sure why he gets listed as a bay. But All Breed Pedigree has you put the information in.


Can you get a color photo from the breeder? Allbreed has no color listed on on him, but his sire is a bay and his dam is listed as dun but has no dun lineage, only 1 line of cream based horses going back on one side and everything else is chestnut/bay/black. On a color picture I found of the stallion you are breeding to, he looks like a bay and is listed as dun (using just dun to describe a color means black based with at least one agouti plus a dun gene). I have never seen a red dun that would be mistaken as a buckskin, red dun is a chestnut horse with a dun gene, dark red mane, tail, legs, dorsal and leg barring. To look buckskin you need black points, some dun horses (black + agouti + dun, sometimes called bay dun) can look like a buckskin but dun and cream dilute coats differently. 

Some bays do have a dorsal stripe, but it is just strong countershading.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Sorry about the double post, just found this...

Here is a black and white picture of him, definitely black based not a red dun. They even have his color listed here as a bay which I believe he really is. I think the breeder you are dealing with has a really nice stallion with a great performance record but they know very little about color, but a good horse is never a bad color 
Dun Roostin : CNYRHA North East Breeders Trust 2012


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

I know, but I he does know color. I need to go and visit horse. I will ask him for a color picture of the horse. :0)


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

There is a color picture of him on this page…..just scroll down. I will say he sure looks bay to me, but I am certainly not a color guru.
http://gibsonriceqh.com/5706.html


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

I agree he is a bay, but Dave, the trainer, swears he has a dorsal stripe. In the description above his picture it says he is a dun.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

What a lot of people swear is a dorsal stripe is simply really strong counter-shading. My friend has a brown Arab gelding who she swore for the longest time was dun because of his "dorsal stripe" (caused by counter-shading). Problem was, there is no dun in Arabs, so it was impossible for him to be one.

From the pic franknbeans put up, he is either bay or brown (with the shade he looks, I'd be interested to see him in winter coat and/or have him tested, because he almost strikes me as brown, not bay).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I found pictures of him, linking directly to the photographer's page since I do not own them. 

LSAReining26-TH-0931 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!

LSAReining26-TH-0932 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!

LSAReining26-TH-0933 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!

LSAReining26-TH-0934 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!

LSAReining26-TH-0935 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!

LSAReining26-TH-0936 DUN ROOSTIN - Dudley Barker - Professional Classic Rodeo Photography For More Than 32 Years!


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

NdAppy -- wow -- your great and so resourceful. The darn PROOF mark on the photos made it hard to see his butt to see if there was a stripe, but on one I could see the stripe.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> NdAppy -- wow -- your great and so resourceful. The darn PROOF mark on the photos made it hard to see his butt to see if there was a stripe, but on one I could see the stripe.


I see that dorsal stripe as well but dorsal stripe doesn't mean there is a dun gene and even if he has dun, he is definitely not a red dun. Dun has to come from somewhere and either he is not dun or there is a whole line of horses in his pedigree that are labeled the wrong color. 

Here is a mare with a dark dorsal that is quite visible even through her very dirty coat and weird light inside a trailer that makes it look like the stripe stops but it is only light shining on her lair of dirt that hides the dorsal continuing to her withers (only good picture I have of the top of her rear)








Pure countershading as she cannot carry dun (purebred registered arabian and dun is not in the Arabian breed). She is a black horse who fades horribly in the sun and her filly born two years ago had very strong countershading as a newborn (dorsal, shoulder barring and leg barring) and she is also a black purebred arabian who fades like her dam.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

SunnyDraco, Okay, Thanks for all the info. 

Besides the colors, she is now officially bred. Started ovulating Friday and reached potential Saturday at 7 a.m. Frozen seamen straws. Cross your fingers. Oh, and by the way. She is also sound. Double cross your fingers and toes and legs and arms and....that she stays sound.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

SunnyDraco -- you are a wealth of information. Thank you. 

On another note: Jazz is officially bred. She started Ovulating Friday night and by 7 a.m. Saturday she was ready -- frozen seamen straws -- and lets cross our fingers. In 14 days we will see and then pray that it sticks. 

On an even better note -- Jazz is sound (she was diagnosed with a ripped/shredded deep flexor tendon this past fall--I stall rested her for 4 months and hand walked her then when she couldn't take it any more I put her in round pen with lots of jumps up so she couldn't run -- eventually she went out with a pal) Now she is running leaping twisting -- you name it. I cringe every time I see her crazy. Cross your fingers, toes, legs, arms, hair and what ever else you can cross that she stays sound.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

Okay,  keep your fingers crossed. Day 14 and Jazz is pregnant. Next appointment is memorial day and we will see if we can hear the heart beat. I have attached some better photos of the Baby Daddy.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bay dun. Black based not red. The black mane and tail tell you black based with agouti modifying it to bay.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

#Qtrbel so what do you think that means for color options.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

There is no picture of the pretty Jazzy girl here…….please? She is such a pretty buckskin. ;-)


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

*Shine and Spin Photos*



franknbeans said:


> There is no picture of the pretty Jazzy girl here…….please? She is such a pretty buckskin. ;-)


Here you go #franknbeans. Shine and Spin at a Ranch Horse Show


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Gorgeous mare!

If the stallion is bay dun, depending on everyone's zygosity (I didn't look at the pedigrees, sorry), your color chances are: black, smokey black, grullo, bay, bay dun, buckskin, buckskin dun (also called dunskin). If both parents carry a red gene (looks like the mare does, but the stallion's pedigree is not as clear), you can add: chestnut, red dun, palomino and palomino dun (dunalino) to that.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

Wow, basically, every color of the rainbow.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> Wow, basically, every color of the rainbow.


Pretty much. Only colors not possible are the double cream dilutes (perlino, cremello, smokey cream).


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Id almost want to call him bay. Our bay has a prominent dorsal stripe in the summer, it fades a bit in the winter. He's a tad lighter than this boy, but all duns I've ever seen you can clearly define from bay with the exception of one mare I ride, she's a dun but I constantly get her mixed up with her chestnut gelding because they're identical in color but he lacks the dorsal stripe and faint faint leg bars.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Id almost want to call him bay. Our bay has a prominent dorsal stripe in the summer, it fades a bit in the winter. He's a tad lighter than this boy, but all duns I've ever seen you can clearly define from bay with the exception of one mare I ride, she's a dun but I constantly get her mixed up with her chestnut gelding because they're identical in color but he lacks the dorsal stripe and faint faint leg bars.


That's kind of why I said "if the stallion is bay dun." I'm not 100% sold on him being bay dun for the reasons you stated. Also, dun tends to lend a peachy tone to the body coat but leave the head and legs a shade darker (almost like roan does, just not as pronounced) and that stallion looks all one color.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, all he needs to add to the foal is a forelock…that is all the genes Jazzy needs to make a gorgeous baby. She was at the end of the line for that gene, poor girl. Both have great conformations, for sure. 

Fingers crossed, just want healthy for you. It will be beautiful no matter what color it is.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Well, all he needs to add to the foal is a forelock…that is all the genes Jazzy needs to make a gorgeous baby. She was at the end of the line for that gene, poor girl. Both have great conformations, for sure.
> 
> Fingers crossed, just want healthy for you. It will be beautiful no matter what color it is.


I think forelocks are so unpredictable, a young horse can have a beautiful forelock and then have only a wisp when they get older... Two of my mom's mares have pathetic excuses for a forelock (one we had as a foal and had a halfway decent forelock until it started thinning at about 8 years old) but their babies had beautiful forelocks, of course the daddies of those foals also had beautiful forelocks :lol:


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Pretty much. Only colors not possible are the double cream dilutes (perlino, cremello, smokey cream).


Other not possible colors are grey, roan, silver and champagne :wink:


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

Jazzy has never had a good forelock. Her tail is amazing! beautifully thick and straight. Her mane is okay, but thin. So silly how it works.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> Other not possible colors are grey, roan, silver and champagne :wink:


Smeh. I always forget about silver and champagne. And I forget that people who aren't well-versed in color may not realize that grey and roan are simple dominants and one parent must be grey or roan in order for the foal to be grey or roan.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

In the photos marked proof you can see the stallion is a lighter color more tan, 
what color are jazzes parents ?


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

The stallion is listed as a bay . I googled and found an advertisement on stallion service auctions and in the description of the horse he was listed as bay. 
So he could be a bay, dun, or even a brown Unless he has been color tested. 
OP have you asked the breeder if he has been dna's for color ?


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

#Steveson look at the pictures. When I talk to breeder they say is is a dun. They say sometimes he looks like a buckskin dun "dunskin". I just saw a buckskin out of the stallion.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> #Steveson look at the pictures. When I talk to breeder they say is is a dun. They say sometimes he looks like a buckskin dun "dunskin". I just saw a buckskin out of the stallion.


The dam of the foal has say in color options. A non grey stallion can sire a grey foal IF the dam if the foal was grey. A bay stallion can sire cream foals IF the dam provided the cream. The owner of this stallion also calls him "red dun" which is definitely not, they have a great stallion but not so much understanding of colors. Happens often which is part of the reason why so many horses are registered as the wrong color. He is not "dunskin" as they are very different from this stallion, no matter how they change the light or body clip him. I think the color differences in his pictures leads me to believe that there were changes in his diet (effects coat color/shade) as well as body clipping and makeup (oil applied). Maybe he can look "buckskin" right after a body clip but that never shows a horse's true color, it actually changes the appearance of their color.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Basing his dun from the crispness of the line and not pedigree as for him to be dun someone's color is misregistered or reported in all breed. I've seen very distinct countershading but it still is a smooth transition not a sudden change.
As to what I think chances are, the mare could give eitehr a black or red gene and the stallion has a black that we are fairly sure of but the second could be another black or it could be red. If it is red it gives you a fifty/fifty chance of either chestnut or black based. I didn't remember if his get were covered. If he has any chestnut babies he is carrying a red gene. He has no cream and your mare only has one gene to offer to the gene pool so there is a 25% chance of that showing up. Same for the Dun. From what ABP shows he would only have one copy of that gene giving a 25% chance for that. As to the Agouti status both carry at least one. That gene hides in a chestnut so if there are no black babies out of him when bred to homozygous black mares then you could be fairly sure he is homozygous for the agouti as eventually your luck would run out if he was heterozygous and there would be a black baby. That means at least one agouti possible from both perhaps more so a 50% chance or greater of agouti being present. That's if I have everything straight in my mind from what I remember seeing on All Breed.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> Basing his dun from the crispness of the line and not pedigree as for him to be dun someone's color is misregistered or reported in all breed. I've seen very distinct countershading but it still is a smooth transition not a sudden change.
> As to what I think chances are, the mare could give eitehr a black or red gene and the stallion has a black that we are fairly sure of but the second could be another black or it could be red. If it is red it gives you a fifty/fifty chance of either chestnut or black based. I didn't remember if his get were covered. If he has any chestnut babies he is carrying a red gene. He has no cream and your mare only has one gene to offer to the gene pool so there is a 25% chance of that showing up. Same for the Dun. From what ABP shows he would only have one copy of that gene giving a 25% chance for that. As to the Agouti status both carry at least one. That gene hides in a chestnut so if there are no black babies out of him when bred to homozygous black mares then you could be fairly sure he is homozygous for the agouti as eventually your luck would run out if he was heterozygous and there would be a black baby. That means at least one agouti possible from both perhaps more so a 50% chance or greater of agouti being present. That's if I have everything straight in my mind from what I remember seeing on All Breed.


It is a 50% chance of cream to be passed from the buckskin mare, not 25% chance. If the stallion has dun, there is a long line of mislabeled/misidentified horses, but he would still give a 50% chance (again not 25% chance) of passing it if he carries it. I am still sceptical about dun as countershading can be crisp and well defined. 
If both dam and sire are heterozygous black, it is a 75% chance of a black based foal and 25% chance of a chestnut based foal. If both carry only 1 agouti (both carry at least 1 agouti), it is a 75% chance for the foal to get agouti and 25% chance of no agouti passed but agouti will only show if the foal received at least one black gene.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

e NameDun Roostin
BreedQuarter Horse
 Lifetime Earnings Nearing $60,000.00
 Regular Fee $1000.00
 Shipped Semen? Available
 Frozen Shipped Semen? Not Available
 Shipped Semen Fee Actual Charges
 Int'l Shipped Semen Not Available
 Chute Fee $250.00
 Registration # 3932199
 Color Bay
 Height 14.3h
 Date Foaled 2000
this is the advertisement I saw..Note the color ... Bay . If they now claim him to be Dun , I would ask for a dna test for color.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sunny you are correct. I don't know what I was thinking. I think it was homozygosity when both carry a single for the same and not actual color.... I had them laid out but didn't do the square. My mind is a muddle with the end of the school year. If one parent carries one and the other carries none then a 50% chance to see the gene present.


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

stevenson said:


> e NameDun Roostin
> BreedQuarter Horse
> Lifetime Earnings Nearing $60,000.00
> Regular Fee $1000.00
> ...


I knew when I was breeding him they claimed that he was a dun. I guess I am more into the athletic part of this horse then the color, but I love color choices and to imagine what I might get. I am not sure why they posted Bay, except that they are guys and they really don't care. :0) If you talk to men reining trainers they say they don't care about color. (ha-ha)


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

davidsonknollfarm said:


> I knew when I was breeding him they claimed that he was a dun. I guess I am more into the athletic part of this horse then the color, but I love color choices and to imagine what I might get. I am not sure why they posted Bay, except that they are guys and they really don't care. :0) If you talk to men reining trainers they say they don't care about color. (ha-ha)


A good horse is never a bad color, color means nothing in a reining or any cow/ranch work LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

*I got a Bay*

Well, I know this is an old thread...But I got a Bay I believe.


----------



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

D'aww, he's purdeh! And a nice pedigree to go with those nice looks.

-- Kai


----------



## davidsonknollfarm (Sep 10, 2010)

*Bay*



Kaifyre said:


> D'aww, he's purdeh! And a nice pedigree to go with those nice looks.
> 
> -- Kai


Thanks so much. I think she is pretty. She has the most adorable giant ears with 3" hair sprouting out of them. LOL. She is so sweet too. Wondering when they stop liking us.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Beautiful baby!


----------

