# Western dressage



## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

Does anyone here do Western dressage? I'm trying to learn more about it, but things are pretty fuzzy. I've read some website descriptions of how it develops communication and harmony between horse and rider, but I wonder, is it basically classical dressage with a western saddle? Do you think it will gain ground as a legitimate equine sport, or is it a way to engage more backyard horse enthusiasts to become better riders? Not that I think that is a bad thing. Other than the comfort or security of a western saddle, is there anything really new or different about western dressage? Does it use then same training pyramid as classical dressage? Similar moves and training levels? What are the characteristics of the ideal western dressage horse? 
Thoughts? Ideas?


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

OK, I just found a few more answers to my questions through the website below:

Western Dressage Rules, Tests & Guidelines | Western Dressage Association of America

The site says western dressage applies the fundamentals of dressage to a western horse. There is a WD clinic coming to my area in June and the clinician is a classical dressage rider doing western dressage. So my new question; is western dressage truly intended for western horses as mentioned in the above website or is it an appropriate avenue for English trained horses that do not have the athletic ability or presence to excel in traditional dressage?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Check out this site for Canada Home

I took this up this year, having decided quit English riding. I don't know how the sport will progress, and hadn't thought of it in terms if horses who don't make the grade in English Dressage.

I just find it fills a niche for me, I don't want to compete in other more traditional events, so am having fun with dressage.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

It's getting to be pretty popular around here, where the QH is the most common riding horse. While they don't do particularly great at Dressage, WD gives them a chance to show their stuff in a form they're good at.


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

To me, it just looks like reining with better posture. But hey! If it helps improve posture, you're helping the horse. So I'm not complaining. 

EDIT: I should clarify- western dressage reminds me of reining, but with more natural movements of the horse. No unnatural pivoting, or other moves used in reining.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I spent this last weekend at a Western Dressage Clinic with Cliff Swanson, he is the guy that has been very instrumental in getting WD, as opposed to Cowboy Dressage off the ground. It was a total blast, I learned so much, and am now even more enthused about the discipline.

To go back to the OP



> Does anyone here do Western dressage? I'm trying to learn more about it, but things are pretty fuzzy. I've read some website descriptions of how it develops communication and harmony between horse and rider, but I wonder, is it basically classical dressage with a western saddle? Do you think it will gain ground as a legitimate equine sport, or is it a way to engage more backyard horse enthusiasts to become better riders? Not that I think that is a bad thing. Other than the comfort or security of a western saddle, is there anything really new or different about western dressage? Does it use then same training pyramid as classical dressage? Similar moves and training levels? What are the characteristics of the ideal western dressage horse?
> Thoughts? Ideas?



Yes it is about developing harmony, and the whole aim, as in Traditional Dressage(TD) is to develop a horse who is light and pleasant to ride, who you can go on to do anything with, because you can easily collect and lengthen at any gait, and you can move his hips and shoulders, or his whole body wherever you want. You can either just use it as foundation training for anything else, or compete in the sport, and train to a higher level.

It is following the path of TD, same training pyramid, similar progression through the levels, and a lot of the same moves, but some just have a little western twist, some they are still working on, as the discipline is so new they haven't got anyone riding the higher levels yet, the tests are being developed in order. The biggest difference is in WD you are not riding in the same contact as you are in TD, but you are still taking and keeping more contact than you may have been used to as a western rider.

In the clinic we had a whole bunch of QH types, from the solid Mr Gibbs, big and slow and steady, to catty little barrel racers, a couple of arabs, a TWH and a mule (who was all sorts of awesome BTW) all of them developed over the three days, and benefited from the training. I don't know if there is an ideal type, my eye kept being drawn to another Gibbs, who looks really beautiful doing his tests, but I think that is because he looks more of an English Type, and is what I am used to seeing in a dressage ring.

Here is Cliffs Website, this is a great place to start looking for more knowledgeable info than I can provide.

Western Dressage


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks Golden Horse!! I will have a look at the site.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I just don't understand why it is considered western?

Western riding is a functional discipline. Pride in training a horse to go well with indirect cuing for turns to keep one hand free for other tasks done horseback. Granted, traditional dressage was the same once upon a time.

Some need to ride two hands on a curb bit in order to get basic movements? Meh. Suit themselves. But, there just isn't anything western about it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

No Boots, some choose to ride two handed in a curb, same as some reiners do when training.

I was allowed to keep my curb and two hand, some were asked to get rid of the curb and ride in snaffled. WD is about the comfort and progression of the horse, but, also about using the equipment you have. To really help the horse and make things clear we were even *Gasp* riding with one rein in each hand! no bridge. 

I can see how you don't think it is Western, but it sure ain't English either. There will be people who don't get it, that's OK, but it was great to see the improvement in some of those more traditional western horses with a different style of riding, and the lightbulb moments for some of the riders as they got to feel what a horse can give you.

I really feel that this will take off and become popular, and like many things actually going along and seeing/hearing someone explain it is very enlightening. 

Will it be for everyone,? No, but there was a broad spread of people at the clinic who all got something from it.


Is it perfected yet? No, it's new and will evolve over time.

For me it is a great thing, helps me train Gibbs and myself, gives us goals to aim for and an opportunity to compete, and there is a gap there to be filled, what else would I compete in?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Not a fan.....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> Not a fan.....


OK, I have to ask just because I am insanely curious

Does that mean:

It isn't something that I would be interested in, but fine for others.

I just don't like the idea, but I don't know much about it.

I have read the material, watched the videos and I don't like it?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

One, perhaps my primary objection, is the incorrect use of the curb. Curbs are leverage bits used only for rating and checking speed (and if one needs to crank on their horses face to achieve those goals they have done much wrong) not to be used for direct reining. In English disciplines the Pelham should be ridden with two reins. One at the snaffle. A set at the curb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

OK, so when you transition from a snaffle to a curb do you go straight to neck reining? IDK just asking?

I can't see an issue in riding the curb two handed, we are not riding in anymore than the lightest contact, you ask, you get, you give, same as any other bit. It makes cues very clear and easy for the horse, if you use it correctly. I'm guessing that lots of people two hand while training, but one hand on competition, (again really just guessing there)

The whole thing at the moment I guess is to try and make things as inclusive as possible, come and try, you can use the saddle and headstall you have, the clothes you already have, because all that is being judged is how well you and your horse perform together, and misuse of a curb will be penalised. 

Dressage is just training, and a lot of what we are doing is familiar, some isn't, the whole aim is to produce a well behaved, softly going horse.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I am very interested in it, am only to the point of wondering the difference is between WD and Cowboy Dressage. If I get the opportunity I certainly would like to take it up.

I liked GH's video, and one I saw of a man riding with a 10' pole was awesome.

No use arguing over it though, or trying to change someone's mind. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

anndankev said:


> No use arguing over it though, or trying to change someone's mind. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


No one is arguing I don't think, but as to trying to change someone's mind, well that depends...I can stand here and say I hate....lets see..........Bugs, that's it, I hate roasted bugs I wouldn't eat one. Other people see roasted bugs as a delicacy, they are expressing an opinion having tried it, my opinion is because I am sure I wouldn't like it, and I don't want to try. If someone one, or possibly enough people put forward a convincing argument FOR roast bugs, taste great, really good for you, a proven weight loss method......hang on WEIGHT LOSS you say, hand me the bugs:lol:

For something this new, that not many people have tried, or understand all that well, I get that there is suspicion and or curiosity.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've commented before on WD & CD, but I guess I'm resigned to them calling themselves what they do. If folks enjoy it and learn to work with their horses, so be it.

I switched Mia to a curb long before she could neck rein, and she is still so-so at neck reining. She considers it advice, to be followed if nothing else appeals to her.

If the curb has independent sides, such as a Billy Allen or a Jr Cow Horse, then it works OK to direct rein with it...somewhat. But if ridden without slack in the reins, then you lose a good feature of a western curb - the built in warning and chance to obey before pressure is applied.

Curb bits rotate. First slack is taken out of the reins - a signal by itself. Then one or both sides start to rotate, but the design means they rotate inches before the bit/bridle tightens by a half inch. This again is a built in cue to the horse, given with consistency every time as long as the rider doesn't snatch on the reins. Finally, when the shanks have rotated 45-60 deg, the curb strap tightens and then the head is rotated to a more vertical position by pressure...or, if using one side only, that side will begin to lift significantly in the horse's mouth.

When I first started riding with a curb, my tendency was to remove most of the slack because I was afraid she would bolt and I wanted to be ready. It took time for me to realize that even with slack in the reins, I could stop her in mid-bolt in a few strides, and thus could afford to relax the reins. When I did, she then learned to carry the bit herself and she soon noticed things like "less slack" or "mouthpiece starting to rotate" as cues to obey before I had any real pressure on her mouth.

That is why I take the odd view that a western curb can be a great bit for a green horse and green rider, IF they use it right. Riding with constant contact, even if light, robs the curb bit of what I think is its strongest advantage - a clear, extremely consistent signal to the horse prior to pressure in the mouth.

Still, proof is in the pudding, and if WD horses and riders are happy, that is their business & not mine. But I think they could be even happier if taught western riding without the dressage contact, which is how I believe the tack was designed to be used.

Good luck to all, either way. Nothing about my mare and I will inspire hordes to follow our example...:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its one of the fastest growing equestrian competitions at present so someone must like it
The Cowboy dressage clinic at the Equine Affaire in Mass last year drew a big crowd - the Horse Agility competition was probably the only one that was bigger
The western dressage uses the same format as 'Euro' Dressage but the Cowboy Dressage is probably more about the western horse and has its own lettering and a very different set of tests.
Neither demands the use of a curb bit - you can use a snaffle or a bitless bridle and because of the way the horses are judged a warmblood will have no advantage over a quarter horse 
Its something that people who don't want to do reining, barrels, working ranch horse etc or rail classes can get involved in and you don't need to spend a ton of money on a horse to do well - its more about putting the work into it
If it sells horses, tack, clothing and keeps trainers and other related industries in work in a market that's currently struggling then I'm all for it.
If people don't want to do it they don't have too. There are plenty of horse sports I don't particularly like, understand or see the point in but I don't knock them because they obviously give pleasure to the people who compete in them


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I feel like a lot of the conception or misconception is in the name. 
Using any of the 3 names will cause some people to take exception, and make assumptions:

Dressage, Western, Cowboy.

A rose by any name is still a rose.

A rose in a cornfield is a weed.

On leverage bits of such design that bsms describes, I wonder if slack but not so much drape is applying pressure? Or if signaling can be started from either position. 

I was not under the impression that WD or CD were ridden in engaged contact, but rather on a slack rein. I would like some information on that aspect.

PS

One man's creek is another man's river.
Half empty or half full.
What did Shakespear say about a name?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, I have to ask just because I am insanely curious
> 
> Does that mean:
> 
> ...


It means I know all about it, have seen the vids and the competitions, and my HUGE concern is the short rein, two handed in a curb bit. These western bits were not intended for use in the way they are being used in WD. The vids and competitions I've seen make me cringe, and I have yet to see a horse use themselves....as in elevated back, driving hock etc.

Now I have NO problem schooling two handed in a shank.....here's a pic of me and Sidney schooling, but notice the drape in the rein:










That slight raise in my hands is all he needs to feel in his mouth and he responds. You start cranking those reins shorter, you create a whole set of problem because the mechanics of the bit are not meant for short reins...NOR is the horse trained to feel that much constant pressure in the mouth.

Personally? And I do not mean to offend anyone here, but I see WD as a way to make a western horse out of one that isn't meant to be one. You know, there already IS a class in competition that would be considered "western" dressage....it's called Horsemanship and all the stock breed registries offer it. It's a prescribed pattern with markers and includes maneuvers much like a Dressage test, to include different lengths of stride, upward/downward transitions, halt, haunch turn, counter lopes and so on.

I'm all for someone trying WD, as long as they stay in a snaffle. But then that's not "western" because a true western horse should work in a shanked bit.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

anndankev said:


> I feel like a lot of the conception or misconception is in the name.
> Using any of the 3 names will cause some people to take exception, and make assumptions:
> 
> Dressage, Western, Cowboy.
> ...


No slack used....but an engaged hand. They have Western Dressage at the Morgan shows and I was like....EEEEK, the whole times watching the amount of straight line contact in a big ole bit. The same goes for other WD websites I've visited.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think you have to look at the horse and decide if it looks to be in discomfort when you decide if the contact and the leverage bit is too much - after all the Weymouth part of the double bridle used in euro dressage is a leverage bit and ridden with two hands in contact on a short rein
The difference between the breed registry classes that offer horsemanship is that they are just for that breed registry whereas the WD & CD are open to any horse regardless of its pedigree status.
And again - not all people competing in these classes are going to be using curb bits


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Thank you.

I would hope that is not the across the board norm for WD or CD.

In my opinion Morgan showing and classes are not comparable to AQHA showing and classes.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

And thank you, Jaydee


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> It means I know all about it, .


Ah you have actually ridden or audited a clinic, talked to people who are involved, all that good stuff? 

I guess we are always going to be a mile apart in this one, why does a 'proper western horse' have to transition to a shanked bit? That is the first issue with someone who wants to show, if you have an older horse you have to show in a curb, no matter if you and your horse are comfortable. At the clinic this weekend, Cliff had a few people get rid of their curbs and go back to snaffles because their horses were unhappy in the curb bit.

This is a training program, a way to bring on your horse, THEN it is a competition, and one that doesn't require any investment in new tack, a silver saddle or a rhinestone shirt will not make you any better, or any worse than my workaday saddle, clean jeans and a checked shirt. All through the clinic the emphasis was on the horse, and his well being, with the emphasis on softness, in everything.

This quote from Jaydee



> If it sells horses, tack, clothing and keeps trainers and other related industries in work in a market that's currently struggling then I'm all for it.
> If people don't want to do it they don't have too. There are plenty of horse sports I don't particularly like, understand or see the point in but I don't knock them because they obviously give pleasure to the people who compete in them


We should listen to, all riders should aim to make the hobby we love be more inclusive, and look to new things, not build walls that put people off. The more people who ride and compete the better the market will be. 

I speak for WD, not CD, I know there are differences, and I don't know squat about CD, apart from the fact it was not approved of at the WD clinic.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I think you have to look at the horse and decide if it looks to be in discomfort when you decide if the contact and the leverage bit is too much - *after all the Weymouth part of the double bridle used in euro dressage is a leverage bit and ridden with two hands in contact on a short rein*
> The difference between the breed registry classes that offer horsemanship is that they are just for that breed registry whereas the WD & CD are open to any horse regardless of its pedigree status.
> And again - not all people competing in these classes are going to be using curb bits


Yea, but what does the mouthpiece look like....you guys riding in a big port? Weymouth bits are different from western shank bits and it comes from the mouthpiece, length of shank and shape of shank.

But ALL breed associations...not just stock horse, have a patterned Horsemanship class...that goes for Arab, Morgan and so on.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is one video from the USEF WD channel and explains how the marks are given in this particular test and what the judges are looking for - good and bad
A morgan horse is never going to perform in the same way as a QH because they have a naturally different action and carriage - the same would apply with an Arabian or a gypsy cob but they can still be ridden 'western'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHIa8OF9ORA


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Yea, but what does the mouthpiece look like....you guys riding in a big port? Weymouth bits are different from western shank bits and it comes from the mouthpiece, length of shank and shape of shank.
> 
> But ALL breed associations...not just stock horse, have a patterned Horsemanship class...that goes for Arab, Morgan and so on.


But you're assuming that most people are going to be riding in harsh curb bits, many western curb bits are no more severe than the weymouth.
If welfare is an issue then what about all the really poor riders using shanked bits with severe mouthpieces in reining classes and barrel racing?
The breed association classes are for that breed only - in WD & CD you're competing against any breed or non breed which should be more of a challenge and also give more competing opportunities for people who want to get involved in that sort of thing


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> Yea, but what does the mouthpiece look like....you guys riding in a big port? Weymouth bits are different from western shank bits and it comes from the mouthpiece, length of shank and shape of shank.
> 
> But ALL breed associations...not just stock horse, have a patterned Horsemanship class...that goes for Arab, Morgan and so on.



Suggested mouthpiece looks like this










the lower port one is the one I am using and is favoured. The rules, as you know, because you know all about it, allow for a port up to 3 1/2" which sounds pretty fierce to me, but again, judges and stewards are instructed ro excuse anyone who is overly harsh with their use of the bit


rule book

http://www.westerndressageassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/WDAA-EquipmentGuide.pdf


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, so when you transition from a snaffle to a curb do you go straight to neck reining? IDK just asking?


The horse is neck reining well before going into the curb.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> This is one video from the USEF WD channel and explains how the marks are given in this particular test and what the judges are looking for - good and bad
> A morgan horse is never going to perform in the same way as a QH because they have a naturally different action and carriage - the same would apply with an Arabian or a gypsy cob but they can still be ridden 'western'
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHIa8OF9ORA


You are missing my point. Just because USEF put out a video, does not mean it is happening in the show pen, because it's not.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have to say that I was very excited when the idea of western dressage first surfaced. But, I am saddened by what has happened since. 

I saw western dressage as having some sense of what made a western horse different from a regular dressage horse. Their ability to move in a calm relaxed and, yes, somewhat like a western pleasure horse (though not the extreme WP horses). I thought the horse should be on a looped rein and moving in a true jog and lope.

What I have seen is a true destruction of the western ideals and are simply reinventing English dressage with a different saddle. I see people who accept, as part of the discipline, FAR too much contact on the western horse.

I wished for something that would highlight what makes a true working style western horse so wonderful. I see anything BUT that, now.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Mmm, you see I see it as falling between the two, it certainly didn't feel like Traditional Dressage in a Western Saddle, it felt like a mix between the two, and what Cliff was talking about falls somewhere between the two. For instance, the jog they want as a soft western jog, not an English trot, not looking for constant contact, but neither riding on a looped rein. When it comes to the upper level stuff there is still debate about if a 'turn' will be a plant and pivot like a reiner, or a pirouette like an English horse. 

I am still excited for this, putting a good foundation on a horse lets them go an and do other things. Going through the training levels means that steps don't get missed out, hopefully. I am more excited having spent 3 days with the guy who is at the heart of driving this, who is forming the tests, who is so passionate about it and hearing his vision. 

Of course it isn't perfect, of course there will be issues, and changes as it grows and develops, but the biggie for me? There were people there who I know have been looking for 'something' and now they think they have found it, I'm still with Jaydee, anything that gets butts in saddles and horses getting bought and used has to be a good thing.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

This is just NOT what I picture as a good western horse.

Horrible!


























A dressage saddle with a horn


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

What's wrong with a western dressage horse looking like this when they do a WESTERN test?


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

That first picture you posted, Allison, makes me cringe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

You see I don't know where you got the pics, but as you know we can all find pics of bad horse rider combinations in any sport sad but true, don't even know if they are doing cowboy dressage or Western, and there is a difference.

Not one mention was made of western dressage saddles, the whole idea is to ride in your own western saddle make use of the horse, the tack and the clothes you have, because it is training.

I don't know if this will work, but pics taken at random at the clinic https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8s8YQF3Nt_dS3hCVzFKOExzZ1U&usp=drive_web


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree with Golden Horse - you will always find bad examples and those people that are determined to put their own interpretation on it but the most people I've seen lean more towards the photo posted on #34
The way the judging seems to run in CD and WD the people that look like the first photos are going to get marked down for not riding the test in the way its been envisioned. 
This sport is new and like any other is going to have to evolve and find its direction. I can remember when the Working Hunter Pony classes took off in the UK that the ponies were mostly show ponies that could jump and didn't look as if they could ever do a days hunting, a lot of people were disappointed but it came right in the end just as I think this will
Cowboy Dressage did break away from WD because of concerns that it would become too much like euro dressage in western gear but ultimately its going to go in the direction the people involved in it steer it because without competitors it can't exist


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> You see I don't know where you got the pics, but as you know we can all find pics of bad horse rider combinations in any sport sad but true, don't even know if they are doing cowboy dressage or Western, and there is a difference.


 Some of the photos are from the Western dressage Assoc website. They are THEIR photos, so it MUST be what they admire. I don't. Just look at their logo.......an English style horse with a western saddle.

About WDAA | Western Dressage Association of America

So, tell me again what I have wrong? I didn't cherry pick all of these photos.



> Not one mention was made of western dressage saddles, the whole idea is to ride in your own western saddle make use of the horse, the tack and the clothes you have, because it is training.
> 
> I don't know if this will work, but pics taken at random at the clinic https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8s8YQF3Nt_dS3hCVzFKOExzZ1U&usp=drive_web


 Along with the new "western dressage" is all the gee gaws that will end up going with it. It has already started. The saddle was an add shown when I searched on western dressage. I didn't look for it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Some of the photos are from the Western dressage Assoc website. They are THEIR photos, so it MUST be what they admire. I don't. Just look at their logo.......an English style horse with a western saddle.
> 
> About WDAA | Western Dressage Association of America
> 
> So, tell me again what I have wrong? I didn't cherry pick all of these photos.



OK, I get it isn't for you, so pass along the bus. You didn't cherry pick those pics? so those are the only ones on the website? Unless you posted all the pics, then yes you cherry picked them. 





Allison Finch said:


> Along with the new "western dressage" is all the gee gaws that will end up going with it. It has already started. The saddle was an add shown when I searched on western dressage. I didn't look for it.


*SIGH* Again what is to you, again I heard not one word about buying anything new to try this new sport. Of course people will come up with stuff, wherever someone thinks there is a market they will invent a product. WHy not list the teddy bears and t shirts that are on the WDA website, definitely Gee Gaws.

-------------------------------------------------
Grouch all you want, as Jayee says it is a fast growing sport, there will be bumps along the way, but there is a niche for this, maybe people should read this page About Western Dressage | Western Dressage Association of America

I honestly cannot understand the hostility that this seems to bring out in people.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> I honestly cannot understand the hostility that this seems to bring out in people.


A) It's not western.

B) Many who are aficionados are merely going for short cuts to achieving what they perceive a western horse "up in the bridle" to be. Short cuts and gimmicks. Not nice to do to one's horse, IMO.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

As an example of what I dislike:

"_A Western Dressage horse moving correctly on the bit should demonstrate that he stretches into the rider’s contact. He should not be shown with a draped rein. Instead, there should be LIGHT rein tone evident between horse and rider. It should appear that the horse is seeking a feel of the rider’s hands_."

Why? What is western about it? It rejects one of the best things about a western curb because they want to substitute constant contact so as to work on a level of collection not typically used in western riding. It takes tack designed for horses who cover a lot of ground and use brief collection for sharp turns and stops and uses it to create constant contact to encourage a collected gait. And the western riding that does emphasize collection already has a well thought out training program, using tack unlike that used in English riding.

Constant contact doesn't make the horse softer, better balanced, or more responsive. A well trained western horse already has those qualities in spades. A well trained western horse will notice when you move the reins in your one hand a few inches in any direction, and respond. Even at my low level ability with my low level horse, my goal is to ride her without ever pulling the reins far enough to engage the curb strap. If she is listening, there is no reason to ever rotate the bit enough for her to feel the curb strap. When I need to - and I still sometimes do - it is a failure of either my cuing or her listening, or sometimes both.

I think the frustration some western riders feel is the idea that we need to imitate dressage to get a well-balanced, athletic, responsive horse. That comes as a shock to those who already have horses like that! It shocks me too, since Mia's faults are largely the result of my short & intermittent riding schedule. She needs a buttload of 10 mile rides, not to be put 'on the bit', and particularly not 'on the western curb'!

If folks have fun with WD, I'm glad they are having fun...but I am not convinced WD has anything to do with reality. :?

Also, their website says, "_From the seeds planted by men such as Tom and Bill Dorrance grew new and more humane methods of starting colts and finishing performance horses. Light hands, subtle cues, and an appreciation for the ultimate benefits derived from a true partnership between horse and rider all led to a revolution in Western Horsemanship. It was only natural that at some point on this journey east would meet west, english would meet western, and Classical Dressage would meet the spirit of the western horse. When that day arrived, Western Dressage was born._"

That may be good marketing, but the math geek in me doesn't think it really says anything at all.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> OK, I get it isn't for you, so pass along the bus. You didn't cherry pick those pics? so those are the only ones on the website? Unless you posted all the pics, then yes you cherry picked them.


 No, I didn't. The website doesn't allow you to cut and paste directly from their page. I tried. So, I had to find the same photos on the WWW. Not all of them were reproduced there.







> Grouch all you want, as Jayee says it is a fast growing sport, there will be bumps along the way, but there is a niche for this, maybe people should read this page About Western Dressage | Western Dressage Association of America


 I'm not grouching as much as I am deeply disappointed. They could have started something in a much purer manner that reflected true western riding, instead of reinventing English dressage with a western saddle. I find that very disappointing. I love both western and English riding and love them for what they ARE. Two different disciplines that acknowledges two different styles.



> I honestly cannot understand the hostility that this seems to bring out in people.


 I can't understand why YOU are getting so hostile. If you don't agree, fine. I just wish they had stayed closer to true western riding to accentuate what THEY could do in a nice test, instead of yank/jerk/hang on the curb riding.


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## luvmyhorses (Feb 7, 2012)

Im going to my first show for Cowboy Dressage in June.. not sure if its the same ...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> I can't understand why YOU are getting so hostile. If you don't agree, fine. I just wish they had stayed closer to true western riding to accentuate what THEY could do in a nice test, instead of yank/jerk/hang on the curb riding.


Because I am very excited to have found something that I really want to try.

Because I have just spent the best weekend of my life in the company of great people, learning about WD


Because this comment


> THEY could do in a nice test, instead of yank/jerk/hang on the curb riding.


 saddens me so much coming from a well educated person and a moderator here, really I am so so disappointed and upset and angry that you throw such a comment in.

I watch barrel racers heaving on their curbs, that's OK because they are Western?

I watch WP horses who look like crippled crabs, but that's OK because they are western?

I know that reiners and others have to be maintained with injections because their sport is so hard on them, but that's OK because they are western?

---------------------------------------------------

I am as _hostile_ as anyone riding in those disciplines at attacks from the outside.

Again having spent the time at the clinic, talking to Cliff, the whole aim is NOT to be pulling on a curb, they are trying to promote a softly going horse. The training is designed to keep a horse sound in mind and body by progressing them along a sensible path.

I am no where near eloquent enough to defend MY new discipline against all the negativity here, because I simply do not have all the answers, but I am deeply saddened by it...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is slightly off track and I apologise for that - and I'm not knocking it either - but its hardly surprising that western riders on different breeds are going to put their own slant into the WD
I looked at some Western Pleasure classes on Youtube and this is a sport that's been going on for much longer - and it is 'western' and well supported yet each breed puts their own mark on it particularly in the head carriage but no one denies that they're *western* pleasure horses do they and yet I can see no purpose in this class as far as usefulness as being a western ranch horse is concerned?
AQHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEgqgnbC4M
Arabian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Mc75F7TLo
Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnwrtLhbR3w
Saddlebred
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iRByJUp0EY


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> This is slightly off track and I apologise for that - and I'm not knocking it either - but its hardly surprising that western riders on different breeds are going to put their own slant into the WD
> I looked at some Western Pleasure classes on Youtube and this is a sport that's been going on for much longer - and it is 'western' and well supported yet each breed puts their own mark on it particularly in the head carriage but no one denies that they're *western* pleasure horses do they and yet I can see no purpose in this class as far as usefulness as being a western ranch horse is concerned?
> AQHA
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEgqgnbC4M
> ...


AQHA, Morgan, ASB and Arabs are ALL going to have their own "mark" on it for the simple fact of "form to function". The conformation is different in the breeds do their way of going and body profile is going to be different. It's science and anatomy my friend.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Of course it is - and that's why different breeds in WD or CD are going to work in a different outline that's geared by their natural head carriage. A morgan is never going to look like a quarter horse
I don't approve of people yanking and cranking - but just because some people do that it isn't fair to condemn the sport altogether - there's abuse and bad riding in all horse sports


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Using a curb in direct reining since the people who like this can't seem to manage teaching the indirect rein, is incorrect. The curb is only to rate speed downward used judiciously. 

I know it won't matter to those who really think the horse looks cool, in spite of the shortcuts, but for others who may be considering this type of riding, I encourage them to look elsewhere.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Did you miss where I said that people were being excused from the clinic because their. Horses were not happy in the curb?

I am again saddened that you are picking up one point, that a curb bit is ALLOWED and not required. 

The whole thing is based on the training pyramid, no short cuts encouraged, again having been there, spoken to one of the founders, the aims are good, and I am proud to be a Western Dressage rider!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> AQHA, Morgan, ASB and Arabs are ALL going to have their own "mark" on it for the simple fact of "form to function". The conformation is different in the breeds do their way of going and body profile is going to be different. It's science and anatomy my friend.


I agree anatomy plays a role, but in the videos posted, there are vastly differing amounts of contact. I wonder what the saddlebred would look like if ridden with the same degree of contact you see in the quarter horse?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I would love to try western dressage 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

So I hope somebody starts an info thread on Cowboy Dressage.

And what was the guy with the 10 ft pole doing called? *

I think Tiny posted the thread.

footnotes: * figuratively speaking that is :wink: :shock:


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I see no problem with Western Dressage. It is not my cup of tea but hey, it gets people involved. I've seen good and bad riders in it just like every other discipline but when there's a good rider I'm more than thrilled. 

However, I am going to do some Cowboy Dressage with my next colt. In my experience there is a difference between WD and CD by how the horse is expected to preform. Here at least the CD show I went to graded the horse like it was working on the farm. How responsive it was, how it obeyed and how it fit that breeds standards. (IE: a morgan needed to have the general head set and go off of a loose rein, a quarter horse had its headset and a saddlebred had its own and needed more contact.) 

In my mind that differentiates CD from Dressage because there are differences between a working horse and a 'dressage' horse. The show I saw was very nice and most of the horses were ridden in a traditional western style and didn't look english at all. 

Just my two cents!


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm enjoying the different points of view on this thread.

I'm happy to see there is a discipline/sport that has more people interested in developing their horsemanship. Like anything else, we know there will be good & bad.

I board with several dressage riders and western dressage riders; I've watched shows for both, and I audited a half-day WD clinic. I surely don't claim to be well-versed in WD, but I've seen enough to form my current opinion: this is merely dressage in a western saddle. Well trained western horses can extend, collect, two-track, perform an intricate pattern, etc. on loose rein and I don't understand why riding with more contact makes it any better. But, to each their own. If it appeals to you, learn & enjoy!


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

GotaDunQH said:


> You are missing my point. Just because USEF put out a video, does not mean it is happening in the show pen, because it's not.


 
Western (and gaited horse) dressage clinics and shows with classes are popping up all over the place here in the Midwest. Everyone is highly curious and talking about it. The best way to decide Yay or Nay I think, would be to actually go to a clinic and experience it.

As for show pens, it is rumored that even the Quarter Horse Congress is going to add Western Dressage classes in 2015.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Cynical25 said:


> ...this is merely dressage in a western saddle. Well trained western horses can extend, collect, two-track, perform an intricate pattern, etc. on loose rein and I don't understand why riding with more contact makes it any better. But, to each their own...


I think this describes why a lot of western riders are uncomfortable with the whole WD/CD thing. When I think of English riding, I primarily think of the use of reins, not saddle. If someone wants to ride using two hands, with continuous contact, and put the horse 'on the bit', then in my book they are an English rider.

Western riders come from a tradition that needs one hand available to do other things, and how reins are used follows from that fact. Neck reining is taught because you won't always have two hands, and the horse is taught to respond without constant contact because that was the only way to get the job done.

Thus I remain primarily a western rider, although I often use an Australian (English-based design) saddle. When I toss an English saddle on Mia, I continue to ride her western. I may use a forward seat, and my saddle may have "Caprilli" in the name, but I am a western rider adjusting my seat to my saddle. My use of the reins remains the same.

I have no heartburn with someone wanting to learn dressage and keep a western saddle. I think the dressage folks could sponsor classes like that, and recognize that the tack will limit how far you & your horse go, but still allow you to ride dressage. It is saying 'this is WESTERN dressage' that turns me off, along with the implication that dressage is something western riders need to become good riders.

If they called it "*Transitional** Dressage*", and said it was meant for riders with western tack to learn dressage and see if they like it, then I would have no heartburn at all...and they probably would then feel free to require snaffles at the lower levels. :wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think there are going to be more people using snaffles in WD & CD than using curbs - for the very reason GoldenHorse mentions - if the horse looks agitated its going to lose too many points
Horses like the saddlebred I posted the video of would hold that frame whatever length of rein you had - exactly as the Arabians do on a loose draped rein - because they aren't being ridden in contact even though they appear to be. They're trained using side reins to hold that head/neck position and if anything tend to avoid being 'on the bit' because its the preferred way for the breed to hold itself
You don't see all quarter horses going around with their noses a foot off the floor the way the extreme WP ones do
You can hold a curb bit with 2 reins without using them to direct rein - and correct direct reining should not involve using a lot of pressure & hauling on the bit as the horse should also be responding to leg aids, you can barely see Carl Hester's hands moving in this video when he asks the horse to change direction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNuLiYhmlD4
And Jack Brainard who was one of the driving forces behind WD before moving over the Cowboy dressage - 2 hands on a curb bit but a draped rein, relaxed horse and no hauling on the reins to ask it to turn
And I'm not seeing an agitated horse here either - and yet I've seen plenty that were ridden one handed in other western classes looking very distressed
I don't think it has anything to do with how many hands you have on the reins its more down to how the hand/hands are used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGFtCd0hObM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XihCp1pg9I


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Golden, I am truly sorry you feel I am, across the board, condemning WD. I am not. I made it very clear that I was excited by the idea but was saddened to see the direction it is going. Western was never meant to be a discipline where constant contact was either required or even encouraged. _The fact that people, who ordinarily and probably comfortably rode their horses in curbs had to be excused because their horses were now uncomfortable should speak volumes.
_
I respect your abilities and like you a lot. I am glad if you found something that excites your desire to ride. Maybe you, if you understand where I am coming from, can help to guide this new discipline in a better direction. 

I am definitely happy with what is going on with COWBOY dressage. It looks like my concerns are shared with many in the western community and a split in the discipline was the result. Too bad, though.

Cowboy dressage is a working horse dressage. I love how it highlights what makes a working western horse so special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYuuxKNzeds


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I've always believed that basic dressage training can help any horse or rider become the best they can be without the necessity of harsh, abusive tactics that I seem to be surrounded by. Jerking and hauling on the mouth with high port bits or twisted wires, excessive spurring and the crippled up "gaits" they create. 
It will be a real shame if the whole idea of western dressage gets *******ized-the pictures of those overly cranked horses (looks like the Rollkur method that is being fought over on a very high level) in a previous post are not representative of what I see being taught in clinics by legitimate trainers and will instantly give the sport a bad name.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

This is a western dressage test that scored in the 80's which shows that this is exactly what they are looking for. I see a huge difference in the carriage of the horse and the contact it is ridden in....in a curb. This is simply not a classic example of western riding, IMO. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHIa8OF9ORA

I am not totally ignorant of western. I grew up showing in western as well as english. I love the differences.

I would absolutely love competing in cowboy dressage. It shows incredible respect for the western discipline and I would find it a true challenge to ride. It would sure take me some time to master it, I bet.

Again, Golden, work within the WD structure and do your best to keep it from being english dressage with a western saddle. Then, maybe WD and CD can merge and become one discipline. That would benefit everyone, I think.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I will stay true to me and Respectful of Mr Gibbs:

Honestly I see more good than bad, and the intentions are to produce happy horse and rider combinations. The pedantics of what it is called shouldn't get in the way of what is trying to be achieved.

Lol, there is me, too scared to even think of riding English again right now, Diane, who at 62 is struggling with her hips, and can't sit in her dressage saddle for anytime. There were a bunch of people who used to be Parreliites, who are now riding their horses, the barrel racer who was being carted, who did find some softness.

So give it time, it will grow and develop, I really hope it becomes all I think it can be, oh and as to names, in Canada here the name had to be Western Style Dressage Association Canada, because they thought 'Western Dressage' may make people think that folk in the east couldn't join in!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The man in the WD video is Randy Byers who also seems to promote training Bridle horse instruction on his website but I can't see any references to him doing euro dressage. He does seem to have a short rein but the horse isn't showing any objection to the bit and looks really relaxed and responsive as he also does here - and he is riding with one hand too so I'm not going to criticize him too much
The FEI have set the pattern for these competitions (unlike CD) so competitors that want to do something different with their western horses have no option but to follow that - and really is it so bad?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16JjdGRdrn8 
If I want to see some examples of really poor western riding and training then I'm more inclined to look at the Barrel racers - but even that sport has some very good people doing it. This video shows the good, the bad and the ugly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWy-xcyS-M
and this freestyle reiner's horse seems to cope OK with her riding 2 handed in a curb bit for a lot of her test including turning it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mOiTOZ6Zoo


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

anndankev said:


> So I hope somebody starts an info thread on Cowboy Dressage.
> 
> And what was the guy with the 10 ft pole doing called? *
> 
> ...


The guys name is Jeff sanders. It is a 13 ft pole called a garrocha. Back in the day old vaqueros used it to guide and direct cattle. It became a tool to show tge control the vaquero had of their horse. Being ridden ONE handed in a hackamore( jaquima) then on to the two rein, then straight up in the bridle. Usually a spade or half breed bit. They would do stops, turns , side passing, leg yields all while maintaining a " working" body position that is conducive to working cattle. The basis for most western disciplines.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

If I had to pick one between cowboy dressage or western dressage I'd have to pick the cowboy dressage. At least from the videos shown here. It embraces what makes a working western horse a working horse. All those movements seen in the test with Jeff sanders that Allison posted are things that a working horse will do in a day of ranch work. IMHO.

Here's the horse putting in work. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3A9WIs03n2c


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes, that was it. Thank you.

Beautiful


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Fort, what a gorgeous and well trained horse. Thanks for posting that. No matter how much you have done with horses, there is still SO much one can learn and do.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> It means I know all about it, have seen the vids and the competitions, and my HUGE concern is the short rein, two handed in a curb bit. These western bits were not intended for use in the way they are being used in WD. The vids and competitions I've seen make me cringe, and I have yet to see a horse use themselves....as in elevated back, driving hock etc.
> 
> Now I have NO problem schooling two handed in a shank.....here's a pic of me and Sidney schooling, but notice the drape in the rein:
> 
> ...


The limited western dressage I have seen has been with bits that you would use in traditional dressage. No curbs. Could it have been a mild mouth piece? That said in driving they have contact and buts like you describe and it is the norm. Also in upper level dressage I think they use more of a curb with the double bridle.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Chasin Ponies said:


> Western (and gaited horse) dressage clinics and shows with classes are popping up all over the place here in the Midwest. Everyone is highly curious and talking about it. The best way to decide Yay or Nay I think, would be to actually go to a clinic and experience it.
> 
> As for show pens, it is rumored that even the Quarter Horse Congress is going to add Western Dressage classes in 2015.


But it won't be an approved AQHA class. Congress is merely an AQHA show put on by OQHA and they can add any non- AQHA classes they want. Hei, they could add a Native Arabian Costume Class if they wanted, but it would not be considered an AQHA approved/pointed class.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I think I posted the curb I ride with earlier, and here we are in action



I rode him in a snaffle at first, but honestly he goes better in the curb, he goes softer, I can ask nicely, just a happier pic all around. 

It will be interesting to see who adopts this, Equine Canada have taken half a step, they have allowed WD as non point classes in sanctioned shows. The local traditional dressage. Group had a collective melt down at the thought of including WD, which is a shame. They currently have to pair their shows with the next big city, 4 hours away, because there are not enough active members.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I have no problem with Western Dressage, as long as it's one handed if showing in a curb, just like any other western equitation class, if ridden in a curb, the horse is neck reined.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm afraid you are going to have a problem then Wares, at least for now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is a really good video on the Vaquero horsemen (roughly translated it means 'cowboy from 'vaca - Spanish for cow' 
The original Vaqueros rode Andalusian horses bred from Iberian stock with high head and neck carriages on a very close contact for collection when they were working in confined spaces and the modern day followers of the tradition still train their horses in the same way. They are joining up with the Cowboy Dressage as somewhere to showcase their skills in the freestyle competitions - but they aren't going to suddenly start having their horses work in the same frame as a typical low necked quarter horse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be5US_Bn4WU
I don't understand all the fuss about riding a horse in a curb bit with 2 hands - as long as the horse is relaxed and happy with it and the rider knows what they're doing and has trained the horse for the job so its responsive to the leg cues and the lightest hand movement. 
Saddleseat horses are ridden in long shanked bits with 2 hands, jumping horses are ridden in things like Portugese gags (2 ring, 3 ring, Pessoa) and American gags with 2 hands and direct reining


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> This is a really good video on the Vaquero horsemen (roughly translated it means 'cowboy from 'vaca - Spanish for cow'
> The original Vaqueros rode Andalusian horses bred from Iberian stock with high head and neck carriages on a very close contact for collection when they were working in confined spaces and the modern day followers of the tradition still train their horses in the same way. They are joining up with the Cowboy Dressage as somewhere to showcase their skills in the freestyle competitions - but they aren't going to suddenly start having their horses work in the same frame as a typical low necked quarter horse
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be5US_Bn4WU



Many of the Spanish riders compete in speed classes that I love. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ8d9ByD5L4




> I don't understand all the fuss about riding a horse in a curb bit with 2 hands - as long as the horse is relaxed and happy with it and the rider knows what they're doing and has trained the horse for the job so its responsive to the leg cues and the lightest hand movement.
> Saddleseat horses are ridden in long shanked bits with 2 hands, jumping horses are ridden in things like Portugese gags (2 ring, 3 ring, Pessoa) and American gags with 2 hands and direct reining


Saddle seat riders ride in double bridles with a bridoon. Yes, they use the curb quite a bit, but the bridoon carries much of the contact. 

And, the gags and ring snaffles are NOT leverage bits. They act with poll pressure which is a whole different animal.

It is not two handed riding with the curb which disturbs me. While it is counterproductive to the ideal of western riding of the "finished" horses, I could care less. It is the CONTACT that bothers me.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> Fort, what a gorgeous and well trained horse. Thanks for posting that. No matter how much you have done with horses, there is still SO much one can learn and do.


One of the cool things in that video I like is about 2 mins in. You see three horses standing in line. The front horse has is carrying the bit but has no rein hooked to the rein chains. He's just learning to hold the bit with no hands interfering with the learning process. The rider is using the bosal.

Sorry three minute mark.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't agree with a curb bit being used with excessive force but I don't have a problem with it being used correctly - 1 hand or 2

I think the western interpretation of how a leverage bit works must be different to the British one because I was always taught that a leverage bit did put pressure on the poll as well as on parts of the mouth in much the same way as a 3 ring gag which relies as much on leverage as it does on the bit sliding upwards along a bar in the way that a Cheltenham gag or an American gag does


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...I think the western interpretation of how a leverage bit works must be different to the British one because I was always taught that a leverage bit did put pressure on the poll as well as on parts of the mouth in much the same way as a 3 ring gag...


Most will tell you a western curb puts pressure on the poll. To find out otherwise takes standing next to the horse and watching what happens then the reins are pulled. The key is that a curb bit starts by rotating, and that rotation is largely without pressure until the curb strap tightens (typically after 45-60 deg of shank rotation).

If you assume the purchase is 2" long, then 45 deg of rotation shortens things by about 0.6 inches on both sides of the bit. If you start with the curb bit hanging a hole longer than a snaffle - which is true for my riding and what I've been told - then the total distance the bit raises in the mouth would only be 0.1 inch beyond the normal position of a snaffle.

Once the curb strap tightens, the bit cannot rise any more. It prevents further rotation around the mouthpiece, and instead anchors the top of the shank in position. You now have a class 1 lever acting against the curb strap, and a class 2 lever working on the mouthpiece - at least, that is how it looks to me, and primarily the latter: ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#Classes_of_levers ) The result is a rotational pressure on the horse's jaw & head.

With a snaffle, you are pulling back, unless you use a device to give it a more downward pull. With the curb bit, the rotation creates downward pressure on the bars instead of pulling it back against the molars. 

The elevator bit I've got works quite a bit differently than the curb. The shanks rotate thru the mouthpiece and use leverage to pull the mouthpiece back towards the molars. With no curb strap, it can apply pressure to the poll.

All of this is based on standing next to my horse and watching her. It also is based on how the reins feel as I pull them back while watching, since it is hard to see from the horse's back.

I don't have any good pictures, but this one taken with split reins shows her standing there with about 45 deg of rotation in the shank. The curb strap is getting tight, and it is all based on the weight of the rein - so rotating the shanks that far doesn't take more pressure than the weight of a split rein, and you can see how much it bothers her at this point:










To ride with constant contact, you'd have to pull this far - and you could do so very lightly - and rotate the 'slop' out of the shanks. By itself, that will not hurt the horse any more than Mia is in pain in the picture. But why give up that signal to the horse? If you want the horse to be light in the mouth, then teaching it to carry the bit and respond while the shanks are starting to rotate means the horse is responding at or before this much 'pressure'.

When I direct rein with a bit like this, I'm referring to using an opening rein. In turn, with Mia at least, that is more a variation of a neck rein, since she responds when one rein is moved away from her neck while the other lies draped against it. I don't pull back on the opening rein, which I was taught was a no-no (by an instructor who wanted any single rein pull back to signal a one rein stop).

Others might do it very differently and I'm sure many believe a curb bit acts differently than I say it does. But my explanation has the advantage of explaining what I've seen, what I feel if I put a finger under the bridle at the poll (probably not a smart thing to do) and how my horse responds. I'm pretty sure there aren't many people geeky enough to subject their horse to such things...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee, I'll add that your attached image says the horse is expected to have a more or less vertical head from the start, which may be true of English riding but is not true of most western riding. In most of my pictures of Mia or Trooper being ridden, their heads are at a 45 deg angle, such as with my daughter goofing around with Trooper:










or Mia and I pretty much any time:










The drawing in your attached picture shows the curb bit rotated 90 deg, which the curb strap prevents from ever happening. If you DID rotate a curb thru 90 deg, and THEN applied further pressure with the curb bit still free to rotate, then you WOULD create poll pressure. However, IIRC, some shows will give a stiff fine to someone riding a western curb without a curb strap. I believe it is considered cruelty. In that situation, you would be able to generate a LOT of pressure against the poll and mouth:










When you rotate a bit 45 degrees, the total shortening is the length of the purchase times the square root of 2 divided by 2, minus the original length, applied to both sides (or minus 29% of the length of the purchase). By 90 deg of rotation, you would have shortened it by the entire length of the purchase...so 29% for the first 45 deg or rotation, and another 71% during the next 45 deg of rotation. With my favorite Billy Allen bit, that is the difference between 0.66 inches and 2.25 inches.

I have not tried an English curb bit. The one that I own is a Kimberwicke with a purchase of about 1.25 inches vs about 2.25 for most of my western curbs. That plus the difference in typical head carriage may cause things to work differently. I haven't tried it and do not know. The RATIO of the lower 'shank' to the upper 'shank' on the Kimberwicke is about the same as my Billy Allen, but the total lengths are much longer with the Billy Allen.

This is why I get worried about mixing approaches between English and Western: the tack used is quite different, and I'm not sure anyone in the WD world has thought through how those differences might affect the horse. I tend to think the tack should match the goals and the philosophy.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Jaydee, leverage bits have a curb strap/chain. This chain allows the bit to use it as a base to lever the bit to pull onto the bars of the horse's mouth.

You need to reread the paragraph ABOVE the picture you showed which said (Bold mine);



> The curb has an unjointed mouth bar and shanks that work by lever action. The lower shanks take leverage against the part of the upper shanks where the bridle fixes the bit to the head.* It also takes lever action against the chin chain which fixes the upper shank in relation to the lower jaw. A pull on the rein causes the upper shank to move forward, but since it is hindered by the side piece of the bridle and the chin chain, the mouth piece puts pressure on the tongue and lower jaw.*


If you are posting this because you objected to my saying the gag and ring bit are not leverage bits....you just proved it. As you know, there is no curb strap/chain to "lever" against.

While sustainable dressage does say;



> It also puts pressure on the poll, and asks the horse to lower the poll (head) and thus telescope the neck and lift the base of the neck.


Suffice it to say any "poll" effect is minimal to the action it exerts on the bars of the mouth, where it's real pain compliance comes in.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

OK, let me clarify something I said about "leverage". I stated that bits that act primarily on poll pressure are not leverage bits. Well, this is misleading. Any bit that has the degree of "pivot" that the ring bits have do have "leverage", per se. However, when I refer to the leverage of curb bits that use curb straps/chains, it is a very different type of leverage that levers the mouthpiece into the bars and tongue of the horse. Gags and ring bit have a very different action. 

Curb bits have minimal poll pressure, and their main action is the pulling of the mouthpiece onto the sensitive structures of the horses mouth. Gags and ring bit simply don't do that. They have no curb strap/chain to "lever" the bit onto the jaw.

For those who base their whole training of bit actions on Teresa Sandin's popular blog, you need to know that she, personally hates gags and ring bits and has little good to say about them. She has her opinions, but they are not shared by the whole horse community. In fact, she has been contradicted by a number of leading riders. I like much of what she says, and disagree on some issues.

I hope this helps clarify what I was trying to say.


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