# Neck placement and functionality



## aldebono

We all love to look for distant future prospects and I am trying to hone my eye to separate what is aesthetically appealing to functionality. 
How does neck placement influence the horses movements and ability? Does one neck placement hinder or help a certain discipline. I want to talk about all around riding horses, but used a halter horse as the one end extreme. Here are a few examples of the neck only to start the comparison. 

1. In my mind, this neck ties in too high on the shoulder. Something just looks off, maybe his head needs to be a smidgen larger to fit the large body? Is this neck set going to put him on his forehand or make it easier to get back on his haunches?

Dominates Image











2. This neck (heck, whole package) is very appealing to my eye. It is visually balanced, but how balanced would he be working? His neck is attached higher on his body. Is this neck set going to put him on his forehand or make it easier to get back on his haunches? Would a horse with this type neck placement be just as likely a jumper as a reiner?

Snips Silver Legacy










3. Another that is visually appealing. Maybe a slightly shorter neck than #2. Neck seems to tie in a little higher in the shoulder than #2. Is this neck set going to put him on his forehand or make it easier to get back on his haunches?

Mr. Livingston









4. It appears his neck is set naturally lower, keeping straight with the topline. Neck is tied in higher at the shoulder, but a nice proportionate head. Is this neck set going to put him on his forehand or make it easier to get back on his haunches?

VS Code Red









5. This one may have answered my question to the ease of getting on the haunches as he is a reining horse. 

Big Chex To Cash









Hit me with some knowledge HF. Help me discern from "ooh pretty!" to "oh athletic and functional".


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## Elana

This horse has a pretty decent neck and laid back shoulder. The legs are pretty unappealing but this is the "modern" Halter Quarter horse. Straight through the hocks, over muscled behind, tied in at the knee and over straight pasterns.. and he is a stud. tsk tsk... 

Snips is very nice altogether.. looks like a good working horse. Neck is heavy but that is likely hormones. 

Mr. Livingston is the best of the bunch IMO. He is correct and built up hill. that being said, he is holding his neck in a nice arch.. but it looks to tie into his chest a tad low. 

VS code red has good neck placement but is built down hill. Really nice horse though. 

Big Chex to Cash is pretty level. He has a stallion neck and a nicely laid back shoulder. Hocks seem a bit high. 

In fact, I bet all these horses are studs.. and that makes for a better neck as they arch and prance for the ladies. 

Nice group except for the halter stallion (but each to his own).


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## aldebono

How does each of these neck sets influence the horses movement though? I agree, I love Mr. Livingston, and think he could do jumper and possibly some dressage, but he is a TB after all.


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## Elana

Most of these are set well enough so they won't make HUGE difference. They are not all that different really. None are ewe'd, none are set very low or high. When it comes to movement the neck is only part of the equation. Most of these (with the exception of the first horse) are going to move pretty well.. and if they do not it won't be because of their necks. 

Neck conformation can be a factor but the way the horse is trained and getting the neck to "turn over" usually has more of an influence. Because these are all stallions, they all have built up necks with the exception of VS Code Red and I wonder if he might be a gelding (or young).

Just looked up VS Code Red. He is simply young. Even he has started to develop a turned over neck (the studliness thing).


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## aldebono

VS Code Red is a 2007 western pleasure stallion. I believe they are all stallions, which was just a coincidence when choosing pictures. 

I was also wondering if the angle of which their neck came out from their shoulder/withers would have any influence. VS Code Red's eye/ears and dock are the same height, while the others have nose and dock at the same height. 
Do you see what I am saying? It's hard to explain without being in person.


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## oh vair oh

I think it may come down to breed/personal preference.

I personally like a low headset. A horse like Mr. Livingston would not give me the same headset as VS Code Red. The lift of the horse comes from the base of the neck, through the withers and back, to the haunches. Once the horse is lifted from the base of the neck (not the poll), it allows the rest of the neck to hang naturally, which may be low or high depending upon the build of the horse.

All Time Fancy, naturally low headset, but still lifted through the wither and using the topline.



















My filly, with the low neck/headset. 










Lift through the base of the neck, then the natural "hang". If you have a horse with a neck set higher on the withers, his natural hang would be higher. I think the only obstruction of movement comes when people break the horse at the poll, breaking the face, and pulling the horse onto the forehand. The effect could be enhanced, in part, if the horse already carries his face low.


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## StellaIW

oh vair oh said:


> I think it may come down to breed/personal preference.
> 
> I personally like a low headset. A horse like Mr. Livingston would not give me the same headset as VS Code Red. The lift of the horse comes from the base of the neck, through the withers and back, to the haunches. Once the horse is lifted from the base of the neck (not the poll), it allows the rest of the neck to hang naturally, which may be low or high depending upon the build of the horse.
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> All Time Fancy, naturally low headset, but still lifted through the wither and using the topline.
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> Lift through the base of the neck, then the natural "hang". If you have a horse with a neck set higher on the withers, his natural hang would be higher. I think the only obstruction of movement comes when people break the horse at the poll, breaking the face, and pulling the horse onto the forehand. The effect could be enhanced, in part, if the horse already carries his face low.


How interesting! I personally prefer a horse with a high(er) neck/headset. I want the horse to have a lot of "air" in the front, and I find it quite impossible for a horse to get "get up of the ground" with a low neck/headset.

I guess it depends on whatever you want to use your horse for!

Compared to your filly, my own filly has a pretty high neck set. 

But she is bred for dressage and driving. 

(Pics from a little while ago. Right now she's a pretty fugly, but very cute, yearling.)


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## aldebono

What breed is your filly? I know I saw the original thread with her in it.


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## StellaIW

Her father is a German Riding Pony, which often is a mix between different kinds of german warmbloods, thoroughbreds, arabians and Welsh ponies and cobs. 

Her mother was probably a Welsh Cob.

With a German riding pony you want a pony that looks and moves or jumps like a warmblood.


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## aldebono

All this is starting to come together mentally for me. I know that the western/english pleasure horses have the lower head set and yet they aren't dragging around the arena on their fore; same with the higher head set dressage and reining horses. 

So what combination of conformation is making it harder for some horses to collect and get off the forehand? A longer back makes it more difficult, and I bet a steeper shoulder because they are not going to have the longer gates. A flat hip is going to hinder the ability to bring the hind legs under it. 
Did I just answer my own question?


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## oh vair oh

Yup. And the fact that people think "collection" comes from only pulling the face backwards. 

The more you can get your horse to drive from behind and lift through the stomach, open up the shoulder, is more important than the face. Any horse that is pulled back through the face will hollow out the back, fall onto the forehand, and false frame, regardless of where his neck is set.


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## aldebono

I just wonder if my mare is EVER physically going to be able to rock onto her haunches. Fairly steep shoulder, hardly any hip, long back with a very slight roach. We are going to go back to my old trainer for a few months for some dressage training and get her started in jumping. I would love to show again, but am not competitive, it would still be fun with her. But I miss those catty horses in the jumper courses. 










Like I said, I am trying to better my eye for what kind of movement the horse will likely have when it comes time to pick my next one (second one). My eventual goal is to pick a yearling on the ground from a nice stallion that throws consistent quality babies. Most likely for jumping, but I have a goal for appearance and athleticism.


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## tinyliny

I appreciate that you are mentioning the placement of the base of the neck. That is more important than whether the head is up or down. If the base of the neck is low by birth, it is harde for the hrose to raise it, and rock back onto his hind. You won't get that nice arch to the neck that Mr. Livingston shows in the extreme (I LOVE him!)

Also, though, look at the size, length of shoulder and angle this is fromed by the humerus as it joins the shoulder, and the angle of the humerus joining at the elbow.

that halter horse's neck is tied in pretty high, but his shoulder, (what I can see of the bone structure under all that overly ropy muscle) is actually rather small.

Not sure the angle, cant' see the photo right now.

but, I'm saying that the shoulder needs to be considered WITH the neck.


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## aldebono

I was sad to find out that Mr. Livingston is no longer with us. He was standing here in Ocala for a while. 
With Tiny bringing up the angle of the shoulders,
The halter horse's shoulder is very flat in the front where it should be rounded. Looking at it again, in the photo, his point of shoulder is where the neck and shoulder meet. 
In the other horses, even VS Code Red (Cant see "Chex" clearly), the point of shoulder is lower than where the neck connects to the chest.
They all have a similar angle of slope to the shoulder. 

What kind of stride would the halter horse have? I am guessing short and unable to get much up and down movement.


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## jumanji321

I didn't look much, but I found one video of a halter horse just running around in his pasture:


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## tinyliny

That's pretty ugly, if you ask me. I mean not the kind of movement that is very functional. But, then he isn't bred for that, I guess. I am mystified as to what Halter horses are bred for. But, that's me.

He can hardly reach under himself at all.


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## aldebono

He has an average reach, but not a lot of knee action. His shoulder is even a little lower than the halter stallion on the first page. It's almost like this guy can't do the stretched toes pointed trot. He reminds me of some of the body builders that can't move properly because of all the muscle. Those butt muscles are so big he can't even canter properly, they force the leg forward before he is fully extended. It's a little frightening to watch him canter.


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## tinyliny

I guess I was looking at his hind end movement.


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## jumanji321

I tried to find videos of the stallion you posted only to discover he passed away in 2011 at the age of 9 and was HYPP N/H. Unfortunately his life span isn't uncommon for halter horses.


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## aldebono

jumanji321 said:


> I tried to find videos of the stallion you posted only to discover he passed away in 2011 at the age of 9 and was HYPP N/H. Unfortunately his life span isn't uncommon for halter horses.


I was looking at his site and I was wondering if he had passed away! I just thought maybe they gelded him and those were his breeding years because he was so young. 
Very sad.


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## oh vair oh

I'm partial to this halter horse, who is not doing a bad hunter trot. 

FG Totally A Charmer AQHA/APHA/PtHA Stallion - Terrell, TX - Pet Service | Facebook


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## aldebono

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni5FvEi3pnU

Here is FG Totally A Charmer moving.

His back end looks a lot better than the previous video. "Charmer" looks like he has a better push off his hocks. I wish I could describe it better...


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## tinyliny

I guess. But still moves really heavy and does not look like a very comfy ride to me. I don't think I'd ever be talked into liking that "look", so I admit up front to being biassed against it. The on steriods, swollen hams, head down like a whipped dog look is not my cup of tea.


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## FrostedLilly

aldebono said:


> He reminds me of some of the body builders that can't move properly because of all the muscle.


I was trying to figure out what he reminded me of and you hit the nail on the head. It may be because I'm partial to the lighter built breeds, but I do not find that attractive. I'm not well-versed in the world of halter, but what do they do with these horses after their show career is over? It doesn't look like a very comfortable riding horse, then again, like I said, I'm not all that familiar with this area, so I could be very wrong.


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## jumanji321

Some stay sound enough to be riding horses, but most are predisposed to leg issues since they are so post legged with too much weight for them to carry. I've noticed quite a few die while they are young.


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## Inga

jumanji321 said:


> I didn't look much, but I found one video of a halter horse just running around in his pasture:
> 
> CARIBBEAN KID - AQHA Halter Stallion - hypp N/N - YouTube


 
Oh my goodness what are people doing? That horse in the video and the first one in the OP's post look deformed in the back. That horse in the video moves more like a Hippo then a horse. I find that very very sad. It doesn't look like the horse is even comfortable moving at all.


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## kassierae

FG Totally A Charmer, or Ozzy, is all natural and fitted on very carefully. I believe he started his u/s career but don't quote me on that, if he hasn't I think he is soon and he shows a lot of promise. I think he's gorgeous, and he's the type that halter horse breeders SHOULD be breeding for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GallopingGuitarist

Okay, I'm a farm girl and whenever I see one of these halter QHs, paints, or appys, I think of a Limousin bull (which are double muscled) 










When I say I don't like QH's, these are the type that I dislike. If a horse is got muscle he should have bone to match (i.e. a draft horse) and if it has small bones, it should have the muscle to match (TB, Arab, etc). Just my opinion.


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## BBBCrone

Inga said:


> Oh my goodness what are people doing? That horse in the video and the first one in the OP's post look deformed in the back. That horse in the video moves more like a Hippo then a horse. I find that very very sad. It doesn't look like the horse is even comfortable moving at all.



Agreed ... that is *shakes head*, nevermind. I have no words.


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## FrostedLilly

Haha! Love the bull reference! And I agree with you GG. I too am not terribly fussy on QH's, but it's those kind specifically I'm not huge on. I hate to say it, but IMO, it's almost grotesque. But you could say the same thing about the Arabs with overly dishy faces with the respiratory problems. I find it really hard to conceive that something to that extreme would be considered desirable. I'm sure at some point though, it will cycle back the other way with all of the health problems that seem to come with this stuff.


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## trailhorserider

Speaking of neck conformation, my two year old gelding has the most amazing, arched neck. And he was gelded at 5 months so I know it's not hormones. 

Any comments on his neck conformation? I personally love the look of it. I know he's not one of those head-hanging western pleasure types. :lol:

He keeps rubbing out his mane, which accentuates the cresty look, but even if his mane were completely shaved off, he would still have this amazing arch to his neck.

I won't tell you his breed right off, because I don't want it to influence how you think it would influence his movement. But if anyone cares to take a guess just based on his conformation, I will tell you what he is. He's an unconventional cross of two American breeds. :lol:

I guess what I am wondering is, if anyone wants to take a stab at how his neck/shoulder conformation would influence his movement. I am also happy to report his is not as butt high currently as in that last photo.


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## aldebono

I love the look of this guy. If you told me he was full QH, I wouldn't have asked questions. His jawbone is pretty petite and reminds me of a TWH.

I really like his neck and shoulder. He has a nice slope and his point of shoulder that sits low on his chest. I am going to guess that this guy has some ground covering strides and can really move off that hind end by looking at that big booty and nice hip. He has a slightly higher neck carriage than my mare, and a much better shoulder. He actually reminds me a lot of my first jumper in the front end. That boy could tuck his little knees!

My personal preference is to see some definition in the under side of his neck as it looks VERY muscled in these pictures. He could have a slightly longer neck, but I believe it's the way his head is facing to or from the camera in the shots that alludes to him having a slightly short neck. 

I love how large his legs are! He looks like a very substantial horse. I think he and I would get along fabulously!


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## GotaDunQH

aldebono said:


> I was sad to find out that Mr. Livingston is no longer with us. He was standing here in Ocala for a while.
> With Tiny bringing up the angle of the shoulders,
> The halter horse's shoulder is very flat in the front where it should be rounded. Looking at it again, in the photo, his point of shoulder is where the neck and shoulder meet.
> In the other horses, even VS Code Red (Cant see "Chex" clearly), the point of shoulder is lower than where the neck connects to the chest.
> They all have a similar angle of slope to the shoulder.
> 
> What kind of stride would the halter horse have? I am guessing short and unable to get much up and down movement.


Yep on the halter horses movement...up/down stride and a lot of knee.

Being a WP person I prefer a little lower neck/chest tie in. Shoulder angles, length and angle of pasterns...all effect movement. What is key for a WP, which no one has mentioned yet...is the placement of the wither. I like a wither set a little further back. What makes wither placement key is that a GOOD WP "breaks" from the wither. if the wither is set further forward, higher neck/chest tie in, it's hard for the horse to "break' at the wither and the neck will tend to "bow up" instead of being flat during movement.


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## GotaDunQH

jumanji321 said:


> Some stay sound enough to be riding horses, but most are predisposed to leg issues since they are so post legged with too much weight for them to carry. I've noticed quite a few die while they are young.


Many ex-halter horses become great roping horses. They drop the weight, get them the RIGHT muscle and training.


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## LeynaProof

That video of the halter horse is gross. I know some people like that, but his butt is so huge it looks deformed and he can barely reach under him to trot that's why he always breaks to canter.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

IMO none of those horses have functionally well set necks for dressage or jumping.
The base of the neck should be set clearly above the point of the shoulder. The shoulder should be well sloped, allowing the top of the neck to be clearly further back from the base of the neck, allowing the neck to come up, before it goes out. I don't know about WP conformation, but I would not select any of the OP horses for dressage based on their neck conformation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

GotaDunQH said:


> Many ex-halter horses become great roping horses. They drop the weight, get them the RIGHT muscle and training.


 
That's good to hear! I knew the muscle was genetic, but I didn't know how much was genetic.


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## tinyliny

Trailhorserider,

I think your black horse is gorgeous. The only thing I'd change if I was God, was to lenghten his neck a tad.

I wonder if he's Morgan x Missouri Fox Trotter?


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## trailhorserider

aldebono said:


> I love the look of this guy. If you told me he was full QH, I wouldn't have asked questions. His jawbone is pretty petite and reminds me of a TWH.
> 
> I really like his neck and shoulder. He has a nice slope and his point of shoulder that sits low on his chest. I am going to guess that this guy has some ground covering strides and can really move off that hind end by looking at that big booty and nice hip. He has a slightly higher neck carriage than my mare, and a much better shoulder. He actually reminds me a lot of my first jumper in the front end. That boy could tuck his little knees!
> 
> My personal preference is to see some definition in the under side of his neck as it looks VERY muscled in these pictures. He could have a slightly longer neck, but I believe it's the way his head is facing to or from the camera in the shots that alludes to him having a slightly short neck.
> 
> I love how large his legs are! He looks like a very substantial horse. I think he and I would get along fabulously!





tinyliny said:


> Trailhorserider,
> 
> I think your black horse is gorgeous. The only thing I'd change if I was God, was to lenghten his neck a tad.
> 
> I wonder if he's Morgan x Missouri Fox Trotter?


Thanks guys! You guys just about have him nailed.....he sire is a QH and dam is a Missouri Fox Trotter. I don't believe he is gaited, although he LOVES to run and he does seem like he _could_ have a flat-walk like gait between the walk and the trot. There are times when I see him transition from a walk to a trot that he seems like he might have a little something smooth inbetween. Like a flat walk perhaps, but he really didn't get his momma's gait. He has higher head carriage than a purebred QH, but I kind of like it. It makes him look beautiful and proud. And since we are just riding trails, we don't have to conform to a standard. 

Just about every horse has something a little less than ideal, and so much of conformation is subjective to the eye of the beholder, depending on personal preference and what the horse will be used for. 

That's why I love looking at conformation critiques. There are some universal guidelines, but a lot of it is also subjective depending on what you plan to do with the horse. What is ideal for one discipline may be a disadvantage for another.


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## FG Totally A Charmer

Thank you all for posting my boy! I truly appreciate it. He is turning out to be a fantastic horse with an unbeatable mind. The pictures and video posted of him, however, were back when he had less than 45 rides on him, so I would hope everyone would be fair in recognizing that. We don't ride him everyday; therefore, to date he still has less than 90 rides. However, I can attest to the fact that he IS in fact, a very comfortable ride and is extremely athletic. There aren't too many 3 yr old multiple WC halter stallions out there that you can just ride out through a field, during breeding season, bareback, with less than 90 rides and not get dumped on your butt! lol!


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## aldebono

FG Totally A Charmer said:


> Thank you all for posting my boy! I truly appreciate it. He is turning out to be a fantastic horse with an unbeatable mind. The pictures and video posted of him, however, were back when he had less than 45 rides on him, so I would hope everyone would be fair in recognizing that. We don't ride him everyday; therefore, to date he still has less than 90 rides. However, I can attest to the fact that he IS in fact, a very comfortable ride and is extremely athletic. There aren't too many 3 yr old multiple WC halter stallions out there that you can just ride out through a field, during breeding season, bareback, with less than 90 rides and not get dumped on your butt! lol!


I think I can speak for all of us in saying that we would LOVE some updated videos of him!


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## FG Totally A Charmer

No problem!

FG Totally A Charmer on Vimeo


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## aldebono

Wow he is excited! I love the bunny hops! 

It looks like he has really learned how to use his haunches and is really athletic for a muscly boy. 

Maybe you can answer this. Does the odd gates of the strictly halter horses partially stem from not being taught (under saddle or ground) how to move properly with the extra mass, or maybe not allowed outside running around time to coordinate their movements before they become extremely muscled? 

Only reason I am wondering is because with Ozzy, if the buttock was slimmed down marginally, I would call him a reining or cutting bred stallion from his movements at liberty.


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## FG Totally A Charmer

No, it stems from poor conformation. If you look at the shoulder angles on some of these halter horses today they are pretty straight, thus the horse tends to be straight through the pasterns, in addition to the pastern being short. Straight closed shoulder leads to no reach in the front. In the hind end, the pelvis is usually too short and flat, the femur too long, the patella kicked back and not aligned with the SI, the tibia too short, and the cannons to long; thus they can't track up past their stifles very well. Those are the trends today. A lot of halter people like that modern breedy look with hocks too straight, a mile off the ground, straight shoulders, and a really high neck set. I prefer to ride my halter horses so I tend to trend the opposite direction. When I strip this horse's weight down, he looks like a racehorse. I'm not saying he's fat at all, because in reality, he's not. You can feel every single rib easily... I usually strip him all the way down and get him really lean after show season and then build him back up. 

But then again... I do things a lot differently than most halter people do. I turn mine out (obviously), I ride them, I use a complete feed and good alfalfa with no supplements, and I give them a job.


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## aldebono

FG Totally A Charmer said:


> But then again... I do things a lot differently than most halter people do. I turn mine out (obviously), I ride them, I use a complete feed and good alfalfa with no supplements, and I give them a job.


I love hearing this. I hope you have a HUGE influence on the halter world with your boy.


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## BlueSpark

subbing, very interesting thread.


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