# What exactly is English Riding



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*What is actually meant by English Riding?*​As a Brit I regularly follow the posts made on the essentially American Horse Forum. I think it is an excellent medium for all of us English speakers to compare notes about how to handle and enjoy horses. Members live in the US, Canada, Australia and across Europe. Our thinking differs on some issues but that is all part of the experience. 

The term: “Riding English” comes up quite often indeed there is a sub forum entitled “English Riding“. But what does an American rider exactly mean by this expression - which incidentally would not normally be used in Britain - the national home of the English. 
If it were to be said that we Brits had a national style of riding then the system would be that devised by the British Horse Society and we might call it “British” but not English. (It is a bit like saying: “Texas is America“).
* 
Is it the tack? *There are still saddles made in the UK especially around Walsall ( eg Albion. & Ideal). These saddles are excellent but they are by American standards incredibly expensive. Undoubtedly nowadays more saddles are made outside of Britain than in it although that was not always the case. The Germans, the Aussies and several Asian countries now make excellent saddles which are sold around the world. 
*Is it the horse? *There are several different native breeds of horse and pony (eg Shetland, Exmoor, Cleveland Bay, Welsh Ponies & Cobs, Shire, Clydesdale and more). Not forgetting that the Thorobred was an English creation from the selective breeding of Middle Eastern horses. However any breed of horse can be ridden under any system of riding. 
After all, Quarter Horses can be ridden “English”.
*Is it the riding system? *Well the modern method by which the British ride varies significantly according to the discipline. One’s seat is different for show jumping, cross country jumping, dressage, hacking & trekking, as indeed is the cut of the saddle normally used for each sport. The techniques used to ride and school horses in England are as much European conventions particularly German, French and Italian as they are British. 
*Is it the image ? *Ie of the rider dressed up in fawn riding breeches, wearing a smart black jacket, a riding hat and long shiney leather boots whilst holding a whip?
*Is it a collective expression ? *covering participation of the various disciplines not possible on a Western saddle ie show jumping & formal classical dressage.

Looking at it the other way around, as a Brit, I might say that the Western way of riding is to be mounted on a Western horned saddle, wearing cowboy boots and a stetson, riding upright, holding the reins long and loose in one hand, having taught the horse to do sliding stops and to be directed by neck reining, especially when herding cattle. 
The “Western” image in Europe is a very particular thing and owes much to the film industry and is associated with such very adept riders as Clint Eastwood, my personal idol. Undoubtedly it is a very effective working system, developed to allow a man to ride all day, every day. I would not fancy working all day riding “English” copying Klimke, a very capable and fashionable German dressage exponent. 

However when reading comments in the Horse Forum I detect that my interpretation of: “English Riding” is that it is not necessarily to do with *England *- a small state within the United Kingdom. Nor is it even necessarily *English*: just one of the numerous nationalities entitled to hold a British Passport.
However the expression does bring many of us together which is a good thing.

*Perhaps some of our American contributors could define in words what they visualize as “English Riding”. It would also be interesting to know why they themselves took an interest in the system.
*Barry G


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

It can be all that but what I think it comes down to is the saddle. There are basically 3 different saddles; there are many minor ones but for the most part there are 3 majors.

English, Western, and Australian. Each saddle has tack and apparel that go with it and each has a different sub division.

ENGLISH can consist of Dressage, Jumping, Eventing, and others but they all form around a basic saddle of the same type. The saddle is refereed to as an English Saddle regarless of where it was made or used.

WESTERN can consist of Cutting, Reining, Barrel Racing, and others but, as in English, it is formed around a saddle refereed to as a Western Saddle; again, regardless of where it was made or used. Please note that it is a Western saddle not an American saddle.

AUSTRALIAN can consist of Camp Drafting and others and formed around the Australian saddle

Each saddle is unique in design and totally distinguishable from each other. Each saddle has it's own apparel and supporting tack. The difference in the designations is the name of the saddle.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree with iridehorses, it basically comes down to the saddle "family". There are, to be sure, major differences between dressage and showjumping, or a barrel racing and roping, but the essential design of the respective saddles is far more similar than if one were to compare a reining saddle to an Australian saddle. And it's ALL form following function. As uncomfortable and unuseable as a dressage saddle would be chasing cattle or running barrels, it would be equally uncomfortable to jump in a roping saddle, or post the trot in a barrel saddle.



Barry Godden said:


> Looking at it the other way around, as a Brit, I might say that the Western way of riding is to be mounted on a Western horned saddle, wearing cowboy boots and a stetson, riding upright, holding the reins long and loose in one hand, having taught the horse to do sliding stops and to be directed by neck reining, especially when herding cattle.
> The “Western” image in Europe is a very particular thing and owes much to the film industry and is associated with such very adept riders as Clint Eastwood, my personal idol. Undoubtedly it is a very effective working system, developed to allow a man to ride all day, every day. I would not fancy working all day riding “English” copying Klimke, a very capable and fashionable German dressage exponent.


Yep, there are umbrella images on both sides of the coin. Hollywood has certainly shaped the way that most people view western riding in their mind's eye. I know people occasionally makes comments along the lines of "John Wayne never rode in one of those dinky little saddles." There's the image, and there's correct western riding, though. Clint Eastwood is one of the better riders I can think of in the movies, but I often notice western movie/TV actors (not just extras and supporting actors, main characters and leads!) riding like sacks of potaotes, terrible position, slamming their horses in the mouth with curb bits. But, western riding can be just as multifaceted as English. English has dressage, showjumping, and hunters. The western "equivalents" (at least in my mind) would be reining, speed events like barrel racing, and western pleasure. Much like your original point, if one simply says that they ride western, we only know the basic design of the saddle that they sit on.

As to why I personally took an interest in English style riding, I basically lost interest in Western. I'm not a speed demon, so, while fun, I had no desire to specialize in gaming, but the super-slow and highly political (at least in my area) western pleasure classes held little appeal, either. My horse at the time also influenced the changeover (he was Morgan-type, with a jackhammer trot that refused to slow down and smooth out enough for WP). I've ridden and competed both styles, but now I ride hunt seat, I show in hunter flat classes and hope to progress to some jumping in the future (when my horse and I are ready), and would love to delve into some classical dressage.


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## lolayla (Jul 25, 2008)

iridehorses took the words right out of my mouth


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

English is divided up into different types. As iridehorses said, there's Dressage, Hunt seat, Saddle seat, Jumping, Eventing, and maybe Racing (not sure about this one. It does use and english style saddle, but I'm still not sure, it's debatable).

Dressage uses an variation of the Hunt seat saddle. 
Hunt seat is formed off of the English Hunting Saddles. We just don't use it for hunting.
Saddle seat was designed especially for gaited, high action horses.
Jumping uses the hunt seat saddle it has a lot of padding on it wear your knees sit for extra support and grip.
Eventing is something like the English Hunting. It involves a cross country course that you have jumps on. (if you have more info on this list it. i honestly don't know much about this.)
Racing is self explanatory.


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## cheply (Jul 27, 2009)

I pretty much see it as a division of tack.

Any sport requiring an english saddle is english riding.
Any sport requiring a western Saddle is western riding. 

I dunno, thats how I see it.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Interesting. Maybe the difference is just in the saddle.

The expression _"Hunting seat_" again is an American description which for a foreigner needs clarification. Yes, presumably it is the way one would choose to ride at The Hunt. 

Hunting in Britain can be a fast and furious chase across relatively open country following a pack of hounds. The land will be divided into fields and one either jumps the hedge which can be up to 6ft high or the gate which is up to 4ft high or waits and passes through the gate once opened. Up in the mountains it is all about avoiding the bogs, the pools of water and the rocks hidden by bracken. Up and down the mountainside they go at any pace. There are few hedges up on the ridges to jump but those cliff edges can be terrifying.
The riding apparel is traditional; most followers dress up
in hunting jackets and silk cravattes. There is a strict etiquette to obey and "The Master" is king for the day. 

The saddle will be a regular general purpose saddle with deep knee rolls; the stirrup leathers will be shortened; the horse might be fitted with a running martingale; the bit will be changed and upped to give more braking power. The regular hunter's horse will be super fit and will have been fed oats early that morning to give it speed and stamina.
The weather will be ignored - it can rain, the wind can blow, everyone can get soaking wet. The hunt itself goes on for hours but riders can withdraw if they need to.

The riding style is essentially traditional cross country - that followed by army officers years ago. The British Horse Society teaches youngsters the same system in Pony Club. Nowadays most ride "forward" as per Littauer. 
A hip flask of heavily laced "fruit" juice is traditionally to be found in the jacket pocket. It is to keep the cold out and the spirits high.

Hunting is not a venue for the novice rider indeed many experienced riders never ever attend because they perceive it to be dangerous. The general attitude is: "if you fall off, don't break anything" and "catch the horse as soon as you can" Accidents regularly happen.

All British horses once they hear the sound of the huntsman's horn ***** their ears up and change their personality. A normally docile horse suddenly becomes alive with adrenaline. At the meet the horses fidget to get on with the day. Any breed of horse can be ridden to hounds but many Hunters exceed 17 hands in height. A British Hunter is a type of horse not a breed,

It is very much a tradition of the British countryside, which the Government recently tried to ban - without success. Fox hunting is an emotive subject. But it is without doubt a very special equestrian sport. Supposedly the objective of the day is to rid the countryside of the biggest predator - the wild fox - but some hunts rarely finds a fox.

The horse and rider reach home, often after dark absolutely exhausted. The horse is fed and groomed. The rider needs a bath. The tack will be cleaned next day.

From fox hunting came Point to Point racing and more recently Team Chasing - itself a hair raising sport. 

So how does this description fit in with the American term: "Hunting Seat"?

Barry G


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

What you describe, Barry, in this country is simply called Fox Hunting. It is done in the exact same manner - mostly. Today's Fox Hunt may be done more as a scent drag rather then chase a real fox. That is done for several reasons.

First is that land is not as open as it once was and a drag can control the direction/path of the hunt. Secondly is the animal activist groups that have gotten involved due to the "inhumane" treatment of the fox itself. Other then that, the tradition and customs are the same as they were 100 years ago - which is the same as England.

Hunt seat is more a style of riding. Any forward seat, whether on the flats or over fences is considered "Hunt Seat".


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> So how does this description fit in with the American term: "Hunting Seat"?


In America, the "ing" suffix tends to be dropped, shortening the term to Hunt Seat. Basically hunt seat riding makes use of the same type of saddle used in traditional foxhunting. The rider's ultimate goal ought to be the same as that of the foxhunter, to be as stable and effective in the saddle as possible, without interfering with their mount's freedom of movement. Here, when one describes themself to be an "English Rider," they are generally assumed to be riding hunt seat (as opposed to saddle seat or dressage). 

The tack and attire for American hunt seat are here considered to be conservative and traditional: Dark colored coat (my own is dark green, but black, navy, or charcoal grey are perfectly acceptable), lighter colored ratcatcher shirt (I like white, but anything fairly pale that coordinates is fine), beige or khaki breeches, field boots, black gloves, and a velvet covered hard hat or helmet. Tack should be brown leather, without a lot of "bling". No martingales or boots on the flat, standing martingales are permitted over fences, and bell boots may be permitted in poor weather (4-H rules). Saddle pads should be the fitted white fleece type. Of course, schooling, all bets are off. Purple breeches, novelty T-shirts, glittery browbands, and flourescent green saddle pads abound :lol:.

I'm not sure how show class divisions are run in Britain, but here classes ridden in a hunt seat saddle are basically divided into Hunters, Jumpers, and Equitation. Hunter classes are really nothing at all like you described a true foxhunt. The judging emphasis is placed on the horse, his way of movement, and his manners. Simple snaffle bits are preferred, demonstrating that the rider does not require a "bigger" bit to control their mount. In Hunter Over Fences, or Working Hunter, the horse's manners and "correctness" over jumps is highly important.

By way of contrast, jumpers in America are primarily about getting around the course, with fences in correct sequence, in the fastest time, with the fewest rails down. Equitation classes (obviously) focus on the rider, his/her position and ability to get the most from their mount. EQ classes can be on the flat or over fences. All 3 of these divisions are ridden in hunt seat tack and attire. 

I have read quite a bit about foxhunting, both descriptions of the actual event and of the many technicalities of attire and protocol. While I don't think that I could ever get up the nerve (or find an opportunity in my area) to go on a hunt, the topic itself, and the history behind it, fascinates me.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Scoutrider.
I keep on learning - thank you. 

I've been to the US many times but somehow I have never got round to attending a horse show - other than a rodeo or two down South. It seems I have missed something special. And all summed up in an expression "Hunt Seat"

In English perhaps the "Hunt seat" is used to describe the old way of riding - where the rider leant back and pushed the feet & legs out forwards to take up the shock when landing after jumping a hedge. You see the pose in the old hunting prints. The system died out slowly in the UK after Capt Caprilli showed how to sit leaning forwards when jumping and when galloping downhill. Littauer's forward seat was based on Capt Caprilli's system.

Even as a visitor to the UK, you might get to go on a hunt - so long as they had seen you ride a day or two before. It can be well worth it - an absolutely exhilarating day so long as the weather is kind and Charlie (the fox) cooperates. It is best to hire a horse that knows the terrain.

But make sure you have taken the accidental health insurance - just in case.

Barry G


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Fox hunting -- as in hunting an actual fox -- is banned in the UK now. 

I don't know the etymology of the terms "English" and "Western" and know less about the development of the tack itself, but nowadays it is a social convention to describe the kind of tack you put on your horse and it gives some indication of what type of riding you do. If you say you ride English, the community of horsepeople knows what you mean because these conventions of speech, even if they don't make all that much etymological sense now, have a social meaning. If another horseperson asks you what you ride, you probably give more specific information, such as dressage or reining or jumping or whatever. But if a non-horseperson asks, the answer is often "English" or "Western" unless you really want to explain dressage to the layperson in question. 

That said, since moving to the UK I have had questions like, "You ride Western right? All Americans ride Western."
"Um...no, actually."

To my knowledge, "hunt seat" is the same thing as "jumping position," "two-point." It is the seat you would have if you were galloping across fields and jumping things. Did not the show ring disciplines of hunt seat equitation and hunter classes start from actual fox hunting, when the original point of the show was to judge the suitability of the horse and rider for fox hunting? Presumably they have hunter classes on this side of the Atlantic as well, but I'm so out of the horse showing loop here I haven't clue how those compare with the ones in the US.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Any sport requiring an english saddle is english riding.
> Any sport requiring a western Saddle is western riding.


See, that doesn't work for me... A western saddle isn't 'required' to ride a reining pattern. 

Things are very different again over here in AUS. Seeing pictures of HUS horses that Americans deem 'english' always throws me. Here, the ONLY place you will see HUS is at a QH show, along with western. It simply doesn't exist outisde of that circle. 

Here in AUS, you don't say you ride english... You just ride. It's more about what discpline you ride. 

Most shows here are 'Ag shows' = agricultural shows. They consist of Hack classes (similar to dressage - double bridles, fancy presentation, fancy movement, very collected) and Working hunter classes (The same/similar to working hunter in Britain). They also sometimes have PC classes, and breed classes. This is a hack:










Here is a working hunter:










Apart from breed classes, they are the only types of riding you see at regular shows.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> See, that doesn't work for me... A western saddle isn't 'required' to ride a reining pattern.


 You are talking exceptions. Reining can also be done bareback (see Stacy Westfall) as well as in an English saddle. It is not the discipline that makes the difference between English or Western, it is the tack.


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## Count Jackula (Aug 28, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> However when reading comments in the Horse Forum I detect that my interpretation of: “English Riding” is that it is not necessarily to do with *England *- a small state within the United Kingdom. Nor is it even necessarily *English*: just one of the numerous nationalities entitled to hold a British Passport.
> However the expression does bring many of us together which is a good thing.
> 
> *Perhaps some of our American contributors could define in words what they visualize as “English Riding”. It would also be interesting to know why they themselves took an interest in the system.
> *Barry G


In Europe it would just be called classical, I don't know why americans term it 'english' :lol:


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## Count Jackula (Aug 28, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> Fox hunting -- as in hunting an actual fox -- is banned in the UK now.


That's actually incorrect, although both Scottish and English parliaments mucked about and came up with 'Hunting with Dogs' Acts. It is not illegal to use hounds to follow a fox/hare/mink/etc and drive it towards a gun but it is illegal to allow the hounds to kill the prey. A marksman can, as can a raptor. However, if the marksman who must be there to dispatch the prey does not do so cleanly and merely maims it, then the hounds are allowed to end its suffering :? The most ridiculous piece of legislation in the name of animal welfare that has ever been written - you can chase it with hounds, but not kill it, unless it has been wounded by the marksman, in which case you can :shock: You can of course still poison or gas them too, cos that doesn't have a welfare implication! 

Cookies to anyone who has followed this post so far...is it any wonder people think that hunting is banned? Oh, and you can still allow your dog to kill a rat or a rabbit, so presumably they are species that don't feel pain or don't need welfare :roll:


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Like all these legislative clusterf*cks, it is more complicated than the BBC or the Telegraph report. A few years ago when Parliament was debating it all you heard about what was the "fox hunting ban" but if it wasn't something critical for you to know more about than the media spin, you weren't bothered finding out what exactly was being proscribed. I suspect a lot of people in Britain think it is banned. 

Don't know why Americans call it "English" either, other than it has become social convention to do so. I could guess, however, that the terminology may have developed as a way to differentiate the style of riding brought to North America by British colonists from the way the Native Americans or the Spanish colonists were riding. I have zero data to back that up so it is a very sketchy theory.


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## Count Jackula (Aug 28, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> Like all these legislative clusterf*cks, it is more complicated than the BBC or the Telegraph report. A few years ago when Parliament was debating it all you heard about what was the "fox hunting ban" but if it wasn't something critical for you to know more about than the media spin, you weren't bothered finding out what exactly was being proscribed. I suspect a lot of people in Britain think it is banned.


 I have a vested interest in knowing the facts because I am a trustee for a greyhound and lurcher rescue, and the legislation led to a sharp increase in abandoned working dogs :-( It's ironic that the BBC (anti-fox hunting as an establishment) and the Telegraph (pro) should both report it incorrectly - just goes to show you can never believe what you read in the press! :wink:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> You are talking exceptions. Reining can also be done bareback (see Stacy Westfall) as well as in an English saddle. It is not the discipline that makes the difference between English or Western, it is the tack.


So in that case if I did reining in an english saddle, it would be english?

For me, there just isn't any fail-safe way to define english vs. western. The way I see it, it's all riding, and you just need certain tack for certain tasks. I realise I have a different view seeing as I am not from the US.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm not sure why we took to calling it English riding..I don't really think anyone is, but I guess it's just something that we've accepted and don't really think about it. With that said, I'd definitely say that the most important things that define Western or English riding are the saddles and the disciplines. Saying that you ride Western generally means that you ride in a Western saddle, but it can also just mean that the discipline that you ride is a Western discipline, such as reining, even if you ride in an English saddle, for whatever reason. The reason that reining is considered a Western discipline is because, while there are a few exceptions *most of the time it is done in a Western saddle. *So I think that both the tack and the discipline are very important when it comes to determining the difference.

Also, hunt seat is just the form you would use for jumping (shorter stirrups, forward seat, etc), in comparison to say, the seat you would use for dressage (longer stirrups, deeper seat)


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> So in that case if I did reining in an english saddle, it would be english?
> .


 You are confusing the discipline with the style. The discipline is dictated by the job of the horse, the style by the tack and apparel.

There is a video on here somewhere (I'm a little lazy this morning) that shows a Western dressed rider and an English dressed rider (in Dressage apparel) and they both do Dressage moves and then a reining routine (then they switch horses).

The point is to look at the video and think, "look at the cowboy working his horse in Dressage" NOT "look at him riding English" and visa versa for the other rider.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Something similar was done at Equitana this year, as part of the all-stars demonstration. The Campdraft guy got on the huge showjumper, the dressage guy on the small, quick campdraft horse, etc. 

I don't know. I guess I just hate how western riders *normally* automatically discount someone when they hear they ride *english*. I hate the stereotypical views of an english/western riders. I hate that we can't just be judged on how well we ride, not what we choose to put on our horse. I ride english, alternating between a wintec AP and my stock saddle, yet I can work a cow as well as most western riders, and have worked on getting really solid stops, roll backs, hanuch turns etc on my horse. It's simply the way I like to ride and have my horse. Yet if I tell someone on here I ride english, without explaining, they get the absolute wrong idea.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I just finished my last year of 4-H, and I plan on applying to be an assistant leader with my club in the future, so I have a lot of friends through my 4-H club. I'm really the _only_ English rider in a club of Gamers, maybe a few do WP every now and again. One of my closest friends and I regularly "argue" and debate whether English or Western is "better." He knows that he can dig at me and get it going (usually over "those stupid pants"), and I know that at the slightest scent of anything being potentially better than gaming he's going to pounce, so we pretty frequently have this discussion (I always win :lol. It's all in fun, and kind of a running joke, but we usually each end up conceding that something is cool about the other one's riding style, whether he says that watching horses "jump big" is cool, or I say that a fast barrel pattern is awesome, it all evens out.

I don't usually hear anyone discounted for riding English, usually if I hear anything it runs the other way around, English riders berating western riders for not riding English. I do have to say that after switching to English, there's not much that a horse can do that will remove my rump from a Western saddle, and if I ride western too many times I feel "sloppy" in the English, but that's just me. I do think that English riding tends to be seen as more "formal," if that's the right word, at least here in the US. Rider position is more heavily emphasized, there tends to be more mechanics and theory discussed vs. a similar level of Western.That's not at all to say that the mechanics and theory don't apply in Western, just that they seem to be more discussed and "beaten in" in English, at least in my experience. 

Neither is better than the other, and there are fantastic riders from each style and every discipline.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I guess I see the discounting from a different side, as I have always identified more with the 'western type' of riding. It feels like western riders think that english riders couldn't handle a fast cowhorse, or the rough terrain that they ride through, so on and so forth. I also ride mounted games, which is a very fast, very dangerous, very exciting discpline that is seen as 'english' but is more akin to the western style/idea of riding. 

I am a very aggressive, and very 'thrill seeking' rider, but I am also a perfectionist, and insist on impeccable manners and habits from my horses. I will spend weeks perfecting one perfect stop. I guess I just don't think I really *fit* into either the english or western mould, and it's just really frustrating that people expect you to.


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