# how to get your horse more collected?



## queenie112 (Jul 12, 2012)

My horse isnt very collected and i dont know how to get the back rounded and for her to use her hindquarters instead of her using her front!? please help


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## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

Leg leg leg, half halt leg! Lol it's pretty hard to explain but isn't at te same time. There are great videos on YouTube that show you from a dressage point of view. Those may be helpfull instead of posts on here, the videos you will be able to see what's being described.


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## queenie112 (Jul 12, 2012)

thank you!! i will look on youtube!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Welcome to the forum, queenie! :wave:

There are lots of great resources out there for learning the "hows" and "whys" of getting a horse round, connected, and ultimately collected. This forum alone has some excellent threads that cover the subject from almost every imaginable angle. "Collection" can mean different things to different riders in different disciplines -- a western pleasure horse that is said to be "collected" looks vastly different than a dressage horse that is considered to be "collected." Despite this, the basics and mechanics of how to correctly move yourself and your horse in a more round, more connected, and ultimately more collected direction are the same no matter what saddle you ride in.

Although there are heaps of excellent sources, both online and in books and DVDs, there is truly no substitute for a few good dressage lessons with a qualified instructor who can help you really get the feel for how to get a horse round, on the aids, and connected, and show you what it feels like when the horse is doing it correctly. You'll probably start on a schoolmaster horse who has the strength and experience to do this, rather than on your own horse, who will probably be unable to do much more than stretch at first. 

This is one of those things that, even if you follow the "recipe" to the letter, probably won't turn out quite right if you don't already know what "right" feels like under you. Even if you're personally more interested in hunters, jumpers, WP, or even barrel racing, rather than dressage per se, some good dressage lessons will be helpful to you. 

In the meantime, study up on the Training Scale to get a good broad-stroke idea of what goes into dressage-sense collection. 

Good luck!


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## queenie112 (Jul 12, 2012)

thank you i will try to take some lessons but i dont know if i can afford it but thank you i wanted to get into dressage maybe this will just help me to do that!


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## kinsey3265 (Oct 25, 2012)

I recently bought a thoroughbred quarter horse cross, and believe me when i say it, they are super strong. Well past that, what i do to help me is to sit real hard in my seat, shorten my reins,give a strong half-halt, ride uphill, and pick him up in the front. It really helps me, so i hope it helps you too!


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## katdressagegirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Whew. What a question! I've spent practically every ride, every day, every week and every year learning more and more about how to do this better and better! 

Alright well I'd say that the first step to getting your horse working towards collection would be to get an instructor. However, I understand that can be difficult. Like said above, let books and DVDs be your instructor. Attend lessons and clinics, observe carefully. 

Second step. Work on _*you*_ and your position. Your horse cannot collect easily if you are throwing him off with your balance or your position. So you must have good core strength and a good and balanced core. Lunge work is great for this. You don't necessarily need an instructor just a willing friend or family member. 

Third step. Find out how much training your horse has. Does he/she know alot about dressage? 

Fourth step. Work from the bottom of the Training Scale (attached) up. It might seem scary and a bit confusing but it's really not. Rhythm and relaxation are the basics of collection...basically if your horse moves forward steadily and with rhythm on any length rein while maintaining relaxation you have the basis. From there you can work to connection, where he/she accepts the bit willingly without fuss while maintaining rhythm and relaxation. Then you can get to impulsion, straightness and collection. But I'd say the most important thing here is relaxation. 

Fifth step. Learn some exercises which help your horse become light and responsive. (Got to go will post more later )


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Good grief. I have worked so hard at understanding this and teaching my horse with the help of my trainer, it is hard to explain period, let alone on a forum. I can tell you the things that helped me and my mare start to learn it. 

The first step was getting her to understand vertical flexion, or giving at the poll. Teaching them requires an immediate release initailly when they give you the correct response. Then you can hold it longer and longer. We did that at a halt and also backing initally. Then to start getting her under herself, we trotted (my trainer says it is easier physically for them to learn at the trot rather than the walk) in small circles, with me sitting back driving hard while asking for that flexion at the poll. 

As soon as she would give her head, I would release. Just as the original teaching of vertical flexion, I would hold the position longer and longer. She learned quickly. Now I just gently collect my reins, sit back and drive her foreward and she will push her hiney under her and flex at the poll. We can do it at the trot and walk, but are still working on canter. When you get it right it feels so -awesome-! 

I am so proud of us, collection has been a goal of mine for a long time even though I'm mostly a trail rider and I finally feel like I am starting to get it. People sometimes do not understand this, but the ability to collect helps everything. Even going down hills on trails, sometimes all the other horses are rushing, and my mare wants to rush, and I get to say, " Uh uh! We are going to collect a bit." Then she gets her butt under her, softens to the bit, and goes down in complete control. It is well worth the work 

An analogy I have heard to understand collection is to think of the horse like a bow (as in bow and arrow). You want the horse to come up under you like a flexing bow, you drive the energy from behind and capture it up front to hold the bow flexed under you.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

KountryPrincess said:


> Good grief. I have worked so hard at understanding this and teaching my horse with the help of my trainer, it is hard to explain period, let alone on a forum. I can tell you the things that helped me and my mare start to learn it.
> 
> *The first step was getting her to understand vertical flexion, or giving at the poll. *Teaching them requires an immediate release initailly when they give you the correct response. Then you can hold it longer and longer. We did that at a halt and also backing initally. Then to start getting her under herself, we trotted (my trainer says it is easier physically for them to learn at the trot rather than the walk) in small circles, with me sitting back driving hard while asking for that flexion at the poll.
> 
> ...


Collection NEVER EVER comes from a headset, or "breaking at the poll" as you put it. That is the last thing anyone seeking collection is looking for or at. In fact, the OP is far more on the right track. Collection has nothing to do with where the horse holds its head, and everything to do with the horse working from the hinds, through a soft and swinging back, into the rider.


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Collection NEVER EVER comes from a headset, or "breaking at the poll" as you put it. That is the last thing anyone seeking collection is looking for or at. In fact, the OP is far more on the right track. Collection has nothing to do with where the horse holds its head, and everything to do with the horse working from the hinds, through a soft and swinging back, into the rider.


I never, ever, said that collection "comes from a headset". Ever. I never even mentioned the word "headset". 

I said that collection comes from behind just as you said. However, being soft vertically allows that energy to be captured and the horse to round his back and come under himself. IMO too many so-called collected horses are -behind- the vertical and overly flexed. I don't ever aim for a "headset". I ask my horse to soften in her face and come under herself from her hind end. When I do this BTW, I do this with a plain thick snaffle and western saddle, no other equipment.

Did you not read the part of my post where I talked about trotting being how we taught my mare to learn to bring that energy from the hind end? Did you not read the part where I said collection was like a bow with the energy coming from the back? Why are you so concerned that my horse has been taught to give to the bit and be soft in her face?

I also said this was hard to describe, so maybe that is the problem. However, I simply listed the steps that -my- mare, who naturally moves very "under herself' due to her conformation, has been working. She was not soft in the face initially, and that was our first step in teaching this process. It was not, by far, the last. All well-broke horses should be soft in the face, both laterally and then vertically. And sorry if you don't like the terminology, but when they are soft vertically, they do break at the poll. 

I honestly don't think I could have reinforced that a collected horse needs to come from behind anymore than I did. Don't get hung up on one aspect of my post and ignore the rest........please.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

When you say the first step is teaching her to break at the poll, yes, I will object to the way you teach collection. A truly collected horse never needs to be taught to break - they will do it automatically. Anything you do to "teach" this is just pulling the horse down onto their front legs. You say you teach it at the halt and "even backing" - how do you propose the horse learns collection with no impulsion?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Adding: You said you ride in a western saddle, so I am assuming the problem here is different meanings to the word "collection". I mean it in a dressage sense - a horse that is working off the leg and seat of the rider, from the hind end, back into the rider. I don't know much about western collection.


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> When you say the first step is teaching her to break at the poll, yes, I will object to the way you teach collection. A truly collected horse never needs to be taught to break - they will do it automatically. Anything you do to "teach" this is just pulling the horse down onto their front legs. You say you teach it at the halt and "even backing" - how do you propose the horse learns collection with no impulsion?


Excellent question actually. When I taught my mare to give vertically at the halt and then the back up, it was actually very early on in her training. Collection was the furthest thing from my mind at that time. I had a horse that was afraid of the bit due to being ridden in rather harsh bits at an early age. We went back to basics. Snaffle of course, and soft larterally first and then soft vertically. She learned that pretty quickly and it was simply part of her basic training.

When I decided to work on collection, years later....I could not figure out how to get that impulsion. I had not had the training. It was my trainer, who suggested starting off at the trot to "get the impulsion" that you were asking about. Whew.....I used muscles I didn't know I had. Once we had that impulsion, it was a matter of "capturing" it for lack of a better word. Asking for her face to soften while driving from behind allowed her to come under herself and round. At first I only got moments of it. Both because she was building up muscle she had not used before, and because the release allowed her to understand that was what I was asking for. When we get it right, it just feels right, I don't know how else to describe it.

You sound very knowledgable on this subject. I do not disagree with your post, in fact I wish I saw less people focused on the whole tucked-neck thing, it is appaling. Perhaps my post seemed focused on obtaining that vertical softness because it took more time for my particular mare to learn that than the impulsion. She is a very "under herself" built mare. Once she understood what I wanted, it was physically easy for her to give it.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Chiilaa, there _is_ a very important distinction between teaching a horse poll flexion and teaching them to "break at the poll"... these terms are not synonymous as you seem to have determined. Asking a horse to flex at the poll is essentially just asking him to do a few stretches, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of a horse who is standing. As the horse becomes more familiar and comfortable with the flexions, they can be performed to great benefit while under saddle -- asking the horse to stretch and relax through the poll.

Isolating Lateral Flexion - A More Effective Stretch For Your Horse


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Adding: You said you ride in a western saddle, so I am assuming the problem here is different meanings to the word "collection". I mean it in a dressage sense - a horse that is working off the leg and seat of the rider, from the hind end, back into the rider. I don't know much about western collection.


Riding with collection in a western saddle should be the same concept as collection in an english saddle or whatever kind of saddle you have. Good riding is good riding. The only difference I can see would be possibly the conformation of the horse you are riding.

As I said before, you sound very knowledgable on the subject so I am sure you are aware that conformational differences can make it easier or harder for a horse to get under himself and drive from the hind end. 

I essentally ride a mare who was bred for cow work. She has a huge hip and, as I said in my other post, built kind of "tucked under". It makes it easy for her to do the reining type moves of sliding to a stop, rapid back up, roll backs, fence work, spins etc. When she takes off, you gotta hang on or you'll be left behind 

I guess, due to that conformation, when watching us, my trainer noted that she already traveled very correctly, driving with the hind end under her, but was not soft in the face. So that is what we worked on, me driving from behind while asking for the softness in the front. I can assure you, my legs and seat feel it when we work on collection, certianly not my arms or hands.....that would be horrible.

When you say that a horse should naturally soften in his face when driven forward, that confuses me a bit. How can they soften if they have not been taught to give to the bit with a basic give and release method? You have no idea (or maybe you do) how many horses I see that are not broke in the face and neck, meaning, they have no lateral control, let alone vertical control. Forget collection, they are a danger to the rider because if you get into trouble with them, they won't give laterally so you can get them under control. It a
Is a "hole"in training that I see all too often that is covered up with the use of big bits and other equipment to try to keep them under control. Therefore, I never assume a horse has that skill unless I see it or feel it for myself.

Giving to the bit is a basic skill that all horses should have and I guess I started with that in my original post because for me, even though it has been years since I taught her, that was the starting point of softness. It was by no means the end. My horse learned to give the five basic body parts early on too....1 & 2 -atlas and axis.... the lateral and vertical head and neck flexion 3-shoulders 4-mid body & 5-hindquarters. 

I guess my thought is that you are coming from a more advanced perspective, assuming that the horse in question already has those traits under his belt, while I was kind of going back to early training because I see so many people aiming for collection on horses that are not truly broke through the body yet. They put draw reins, training forks, running matingales, huge bits, all in the name of getting a "headset" like you were talking about, and we both know that is wrong. My point was that to start, make sure your horse is truly broke and soft in the face. I guess I should have added body too, in retrospect. If he isn't go back to basics, or you won't be acheiving true collection when you do start asking him to drive from behind.

Whew.....this really is hard to explain. :shock:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Eolith said:


> Chiilaa, there _is_ a very important distinction between teaching a horse poll flexion and teaching them to "break at the poll"... these terms are not synonymous as you seem to have determined. Asking a horse to flex at the poll is essentially just asking him to do a few stretches, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of a horse who is standing. As the horse becomes more familiar and comfortable with the flexions, they can be performed to great benefit while under saddle -- asking the horse to stretch and relax through the poll.
> 
> Isolating Lateral Flexion - A More Effective Stretch For Your Horse


I agree with you in part - all horses should be taught to flex. And, for what it is worth, the instance I was referring to did use the terminology "break at the poll", so I was not the one who made them synonymous. There is a huge difference between the two, and I was specifically referring to the "breaking at the poll" being the wrong idea for collection. Nothing to do with flexing, so please don't misquote me.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Chiilaa, I think that you are the one who misquoted KountryPrincess in the first place. You were the first to ever mention "breaking at the poll", KountryPrincess didn't say anything about that. She spoke of flexion and giving. You seemed to misinterpret what KountryPrincess meant, which is why I tried to clarify and redefine.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I teach all my horses to soften their face as soon as they are started. Why? Because when I go to do it later, if I give the cue for collection, they aren't magically going to round. In fact, some of them will get bound up thinking I'm going faster, but they get confused by the halt halting an the leg at the same time. They learn to be soft in the bridle first, to stretch. Then, they learn to drive up into the bridle. You'd be pretty amazed at how much power these horses get with a lot of holding with the hands and just drive drive DRIVE from your leg.

Of course, I ride barrel horses. They tend to have a huge engine from behind as it is. Not saying dressage horse's don't because they do, it's just a differant type of "engine" in my experience. My lease horse, Arcadian, who was an eventer...He felt worlds differant in what we are referring to as "collection". When I asked, he drove into the bridle from behind and collected himself...But there was not the large amount of potential energy. It was simply a floating motion. Every barrel horse I've ever ridden has felt like you were pulling a rubberband back. The longer the band was pulled, the harder it was gonna snap.

Does any of this mean I'm going to yank my horse's face down to their chest and drive with my leg? No. All my training is done in a snaffle, so I take contact with them, squeeze and drive with my leg, half halt, squeeze and hold, and I can just feel that engine working. Like revving the engine on **** nice truck. ;D


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Just chiming in here: flexing at the poll (vertically) is just as bad as "breaking" at the poll. Neither encourages a correct contact where the horse stretches the neck and extends the throatlach into actually, a fairly strong contact. Contact is step number 3 on the pyramid, collection is last (6) and so not having a correct contact means you will never be collected in a classical dressage sense.
The horse never needs to be "see sawed", "vertically flexed" or "softened in the mouth" by action of moving the hand around. The hand is actually quite stationary to encourage the horse to come to the bit (sometimes quite strongly) and will supple the horse through action of the fingers to mobilize the jaw. In my PSG horse I regularity have 30-50 lbs of contact because he stretches the neck out, and the base of the neck up, to come into a correct and strong connection. Any backing off the bit or wavering in the connection (many times confused with "lightness") is incorrect and a huge hole in the training.

I digress from the point of this thread: no one can teach true collection online. You need to find a coach. Some things that it may help to Google or look up are the German training scale, USEF rules (which give a good explanation of all the dressage figures and movements), ultimate dressage (a good bb to read) and sustainabledressage.net

Good luck!

Eta: for western, I do not know if any of the previous holds true. However for those of us with dressage in mind, this is all true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks Eolith and Sorrel for your support on this matter. I think I am gonna step out of this one because I am starting to get confused and that probably means the discussion is not helping the OP at all. I absolutely agree that you cannot teach collection online, but I was just trying to share how my little cow horse and I have been progressing in that direction with *our* trainer.

It did not sound like the OP was aiming for Grand Prix dressage, but was perhaps more like myself, and just wanting to add some collection to her horse's bag of tricks. Our trainer is not a dressage trainer, I am not a dressage rider, but she is an excellent WP trainer who never uses gimicks in place of good training and I have tremendous respect for her. 

Now I feel like I've probably just confused the issue for the OP, so for that, I apologize, and will respectfully sign off.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok.....confusion....yes.....just to add my two cents worth......

Just had an extra lesson in true western collection today, I was doing ok but achieved a real true working collection today......not just having the horse hold its face vertical by use of the bit.......true collection....
Before you begin, make sure your horse is soft in his body, his sides, moving his shoulder, hips in a willing fashion with little to no effort from you.....

Next, walk on a loose rein at a walk, evenly squeeze your legs on your horse to drive your walk faster, SLOWLY raise your reins, up and BLOCK the horse (don't keep pulling, just apply enough pressure to block the horse, don't keep pulling, raise your hands and hold them in position) , not pulling back, ALL THE WHILE squeezing your horse into tHe bridle....you will feel the horse make contact with the bit, keep squeezing forward, forward, forward....AS SOON AS YOU FEEL THE HORSE GIVE TO THE BIT Ie, soften in your hands (this is a very obvious feeling - like soft butter on the bit)..SLOWLY release him.......walk a few morse steps relaxed.....squeeze, ask again.....make sure you get the softness BEFORE you release him by lowering your hands slowly and letting him relax.....

By letting him relax you are giving him incentive to collect for you...and as he gets better and better at responding to this cue you can ask more often for longer periods of time....

YOU SHOULD also feel the horse lift his back, I can feel my horses back right under me when I do this.....kind of like switching from a chair seat to a deep dressage seat....even in my reining saddle.

What I think people try to do is keep a horse working collected ALL THE TIME....this does not offer the horse any incentive to work and stay collected for you as he has no incentive in doing so.....this is especially true with horses who are unfit or not softened in the body before asking for collection.....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I know a lot of Western riders talke about collecting the horse, and having them soft in the face, and that's fine, I suppose. But sometimes what I see it the horse who comes behind the bit, had a great tenseness in his jaw and he may tuck his hind end under himself , but ends up more plowing down onto his forehead almost, what with his head tucked back and legs under him but the rear legs are not bearing more weight and there is not lift of the front end. the front legs bear even more weight, just like when a hrose reaches down to graze.

When the horse collects, he will shift the front backwards as much as he will bring his back under himself. The front end lifts by virtue of more push from the hind end, not just more tuck of them under him. It's a bit like the way the front end of a power boat will lift out of the water when you gun the engine.
you can have a horse bring his hind legs further under him but if he doesn't lift the base of his neck and push more from those hind end to elevat the front end, then it is not true collection.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I know a lot of Western riders talke about collecting the horse, and having them soft in the face, and that's fine, I suppose. But sometimes what I see it the horse who comes behind the bit, had a great tenseness in his jaw and he may tuck his hind end under himself , but ends up more plowing down onto his forehead almost, what with his head tucked back and legs under him but the rear legs are not bearing more weight and there is not lift of the front end. the front legs bear even more weight, just like when a hrose reaches down to graze.
> 
> When the horse collects, he will shift the front backwards as much as he will bring his back under himself. The front end lifts by virtue of more push from the hind end, not just more tuck of them under him. It's a bit like the way the front end of a power boat will lift out of the water when you gun the engine.
> you can have a horse bring his hind legs further under him but if he doesn't lift the base of his neck and push more from those hind end to elevat the front end, then it is not true collection.


Nope I'm not talking about plowing ahead on the forehand with an unrelaxed jaw and a disengaged hind end that is tucked under........if you are referring to my post.....I grew up English.......I'm talking about complete front end lift....without it you cannot slide, spin, rollback, control speed...nothing.....if a Reiner is not light in the front end he won't be able to perform anything properly.....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wasnt' referring to anyone's post in particular. I wasn't keeping them straight, actually. Typical!


ETA I pretty much agree with your post, especially about giving incentive to collect by rewarding this.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I think a huge thing comes into play here, of in english typically the poll is the highest point on the horse's body...While in reiners, cutters, pleasure people etc they want the head low for relaxation. I think this is where people get the "fall on the forehand" assumption that comes with western riders.

I will be the first to admit Selena is heavy on the forehand. She is built ridiculously downhill and she has a huge butt. It is like pedalling a bike uphill with her in a normal ride. If I want her to drive from behind on something like just a plain circle, good jesus, DRIVE SQUEEZE DRIVE SQUEEZE has a whole new meaning. She will never be particularly good at it...But ****, give her a cow to work or a barrel to run and she suddenly is the lightest horse in the world with the front. That is why I gave up with her reining; She's finished but she finds no purpose in the job, therefore she will not do it right. Her way or the highway. 

It's just a totally differant world from english to western. I don't appreciate people telling me the way I train my western horses is wrong though, just because I don't meet their "true" standards. Not saying it was anyone here specifically, it's just a pet peeve. Differant things for differant jobs. Talk about "true" collection, and I know my main horse does not meet that standard of "true". However, she lowers her head, relaxes, licks and chews, and puts on a good show for our judges.

It's like night and day...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Please remember that dressage collection is intended for a horse to give a collected gait - sustained movement with much of the weight on the rear. Western collection usually refers to a shorter duration shift of weight, and the amount of weight shifted is less. It is used primarily to allow the horse to turn faster and to prepare for sudden acceleration.

Backing up doesn't teach collection, but I'm told it improves the horse's strength in muscles that will be used during western collection. I don't know personally, because I haven't tried it.

Softening vertically and horizontally, at least with the two western trainers I've taken lessons from, is not intended to "collect" the horse. It is intended to get the horse listening to the rider and responding to the bit. When my mare was started all over for her training last November (long story, not needed here), one of the early things worked on was softening vertically and horizontally from the ground. Later it was worked on mounted. The goal wasn't to collect the horse per se, but to teach her to give to the bit and not fight it, and to listen to the rider for instruction. That isn't collection, but it is a step one would need before teaching collection. And since western riding doesn't normally involve constant contact on the bit, it is again a somewhat temporary thing.

I have no desire to teach my horse collected gaits. I do need them to be able to shift their weight to the rear enough to make balanced turns and to prepare for acceleration. For that mild and limited degree of "collection", we started with flexing vertically and horizontally, and then moved to various circles. I liked using a triangle set of 3 cones. I walked the horse into the "cones of confusion" and then decided as I entered the triangle which cone we would circle, or if we were going to circle at all. That forced the horse to wait for my cue - they couldn't anticipate since I didn't know myself. We would then circle a cone, and I would check to see if the horse was balanced. Was she falling in with the shoulder? Bending her body around the turn? Where was my weight - forward or to the rear? I can't expect her to put weight to the rear if I'm not.

With practice, we increased to trotting. Since all that turning was hard work, I set up a fourth cone about 75 yards away, so we could break out of the cones of confusion and let the horse relax going to & from the far cone. Varying the size of the triangle & our speed allowed me to vary the workout intensity for the horse. Trying to get good circles helped both horse and rider with balance.

For my limited purpose, that worked well. With Mia, I had to be careful not to overdo it, since she resents endless circles. We've spent the last 6 months teaching her it is OK to go for rides out in the desert. Yesterday was her first solo trip that included cantering. And she actually remained calm and relaxed for a short canter, instead of going into a mild bolt! For her, that is big progress!

I've started making it a practice, however, at the end of each trail ride to have her canter a few circles in our small arena. The trail rides have helped enormously with her "relaxation", since much of her body tension had been mental rather than physical.

We will never work on collected gaits in the FEI sense, nor will most western riders. We normally ride with slack in the reins and with her free to choose what parts of the path or wash that gives her the best footing, although I want her ready to respond to my inputs - which are not all thru the bit. I read an article a long time ago about how 'on the bit' really meant 'on the aids' - listening & responding to the rider's cues. If so, then by that definition I want her 'on the bit'.

None of this involves headset. The softening I talk about has do do with her listening and understanding my bit cues, so that I can help her with her balance and relaxation. This picture captures our goal for a 'normal headset':










She can do a relaxed canter like that, or accelerate into a gallop with a similar position. I remember when this picture was taken, and she was very 'soft' with her head. Take a bit of slack out of a rein, and she responded right away. That is what I was taught meant she was 'soft'. And it is very hard to teach a horse not to get strung out but to 'collect' if they are not listening to the riders cues, including the reins. I gave up riding bitless because I needed more subtle cues to get my mare to 'collect'.

No idea if all this rambling helps anyone. Got up at 3 AM with sinus problems, and 3 AM isn't the best time to be posting on the Internet. If it helps, great. If not, ignore it please.


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ........ In my PSG horse I regularity have 30-50 lbs of contact because he stretches the neck out, and the base of the neck up, to come into a correct and strong connection.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



WOW! 30 - 50 lbs of force is a lot of pull, considering the small surface area of the bit.


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

bsms said:


> Please remember that dressage collection is intended for a horse to give a collected gait - sustained movement with much of the weight on the rear. Western collection usually refers to a shorter duration shift of weight, and the amount of weight shifted is less. It is used primarily to allow the horse to turn faster and to prepare for sudden acceleration.........



Very nice post BSMS!

I think a *LOT* of "fuel" for this thread has come from the intermingling of English/dressage/western riding. It would seem that a more coherent discussion of collection could be had if it were successfully limited to one of the disciplines. Just a thought...

There is a common concept at the core of it all, but when that core concept of collection is "fleshed out" for each of the different persuasions, it seems that they diverge quite a bit.

Just how it appears to me....

I guess we were pretty oblivious when we were kids (back in the mid 60s).... We did everything we could think of on our horses (including pretty good success at poles, barrels, reining etc) and never heard of collection....


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I still have no idea why it even matters what discipline we are talking about at all.

Driving from behind to front is the same concept in either discipline.

Whether it be my barrel horse:










or Anky's dressage horse.










Collection for both these horses should be the same thing regardless of the tack they are wearing or how they are being ridden.

No one is suggesting yank the horse's face to the dirt with about ten pairs of draw reins to get him collected.

We are suggesting you get the horse giving softly to the bridle, because even though in english you ride with contact like Anebel said, in western the same thing is just as well achieved on a loose rein with a different style. The horse is expected to be relaxed and willing. It's SUPPOSED to be effortless.


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## queenie112 (Jul 12, 2012)

thank you everybody for your comments i would appreciate it if you wouldnt argue who's better!thank you


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