# Parelli opinions?



## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Parelli most definitely was not my first choice, however, my riding instructor /trainer uses Parelli and her horses seem fine. I was going to use Missy Wryn: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC5b4PJeuS4IroYcFND92zAg try to follow her and throw in some Parelli.

I wanted your opinions on Parelli training, I have heard much good and bad... So comment your Parelli opinions and stories! Thanks!
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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Parelli is a controversial name, and the controversy varies from Parelli as a person, Parelli as a trainer, and Parelli as a company.

I personally find his techniques helpful, but not as easy to duplicate as Clinton Anderson's.

Bottom line, if your riding instructor/trainer knows what she's doing, it certainly won't hurt you or your horse that she's using Parelli techniques.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

camcam78910 said:


> ... I was going to use Missy Wryn: ... try to follow her and throw in some Parelli.


Hmmm..."It is a myth that we as humans need to use force, dominance and pain to control a horse. Your true desire to love and be loved by your horse is natural to you and your horse, you just need to learn how to be your horse’s herd leader which is as simple as he who moves the other’s feet first is in control."

http://site.missywryn.com/uploads/12-1-14_Gentle_Doesn_t_Mean_Whimpy.pdf

"So the new horse is milling around and I decide as the herd leader “I want that spot” so I run up, run off the new horse and instantly turn away, dropping my pressure because she just ran off giving me what I wanted. The horse will probably toss her head, bucking or kicking at me, but she ran off nonetheless – I got what I wanted. I don’t care if the horse is snotty during this process so long as they are not charging me – that’s another series for another time. After a few minutes I decide “I want that space too” and run off the horse where she is standing. I’m acting just like the herd leader and after a while the horse’s instinct takes hold and she turns to me with an “oh you’re the leader so what do you want me to do” look on her face which I immediately turn my back and praise the horse..."

http://site.missywryn.com/uploads/2-1-15_Gentle_Horse_Training_Part_2.pdf

"The way I teach my horse to back up is I stand in front of her and jiggle the lead rope back and forth slightly increasing the jiggling, upping the pressure, until she steps back or even leans back and then instantly I stop jiggling (asking) express appreciation “good girl”, drop my eyes and bend at the waist dropping ALL my pressure."

http://site.missywryn.com/uploads/3-1-15_Gentle_Horse_Training_Part_3.pdf​I'm underwhelmed, to say the least. I don't like the "no iron" approach. I find bits pretty useful, both in training a horse and communicating with one. I don't use spurs, but I can see where they could be used in a good way. I loathe the 'jiggle lead rope' method of backing a horse up. And I don't think her approach to being a herd leader will count for squat once your butt is in the saddle.

"_Your true desire to love and be loved by your horse is natural to you and your horse..._" 

I'm not buying it. I don't think a horse has any natural desire to be loved by a human, or to give love to one. I think her approach sounds like a great way to ruin a horse.

But I'm not a horse trainer, don't compete in anything, show anything and will never win any awards for horsemanship.

"_How many runaways have you been on with a bit in the horse's mouth - how well did the bit work then?_"

I've been on more than my fair share of bolts. A good curb bit can do wonders. The snaffle worked wonders too, yesterday. Caught him in the middle of his first leap forward and turned him around. Two circles left and one right. Then he was ready to listen to me again. 

I've also ridden out quite a few bolts in a bitless bridle (rope sidepull, very similar to what she sells)...and had to just wait until the horse stopped running...:evil:


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

the only Parelli things i use is the groundwork games. Only sometimes I use it though.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There's an old saying "What you heard isn't what I said" or something like that. This applies to so many aspects in life but we're talking trainers. All trainers, popular or not, teach us something if we keep an open mind. If what you glean doesn't work, remember the quote and try something a little different. Horses are forgiving and if we teach in a calm manner at a pace that doesn't put the horse in flight mode, sooner or later we'll get it right. And you'll know by your horse when it's right.


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## mangomelon (May 11, 2012)

I really have to agree with Joel. I don't personally like Parelli but I think he's a little showy and obnoxious. I certainly don't have an issue with his horsemanship (even though I do most things differently).

However, I have seen A LOT of people poorly and incorrectly implement his method and end up in dangerous situations with frustrated horses. This is where I think a lot of the negative opinions come from.

My advice is this: don't worry about the names and labels people use (carrot stick, lunge whip, whatever) it really doesn't matter. Does she get good responses from her horses? That's how I judge trainers.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I just saw Parelli at the Western States Horse Expo the other weekend...it was appalling to me, the way that he talked to his audience and to the people he worked with. I've never been a big fan of his but I've always sat back and tried to be respectful. I agree that you can learn something from any trainer.
But I don't know that I would put myself into that teaching method just because I could learn SOMETHING.

A few noteable things: The first thing I heard him saying was (paraphrasing) "We used to treat horses really forcefully, but more and more people are seeing we don't have to do it that way. It's like how we used to have to drag women into the cave by their hair, now we ask them in a nicer way."
"I'm gonna teach you guys about the things you don't even know that you don't know"
In a later clinic he had the owner of the horse he was working with (a lady around his age) SITTING IN HIS LAP while he did some kind of weird distant technique from a chair to attempt to get the horse to stand near a bag it was afraid of (which it didn't end up comfortably doing anyway from what I saw).

Overall the entire experience was very blatantly cult-like and gave my mom and me the heebie jeebies. I wouldn't touch the guy with a 20ft pole.

I also knew a lady who was well known at the barn I used to go to who was a big Parelli gal. She had one horse that was sort of bullish and desensitized the living heck out of him until he was an absolute terrifying monster. Never have I been afraid of a horse until I met that horse. He would see you coming and charge you with all of his might, and no amount of flailing things at him or even hitting him with the end of a leadrope would make him back down. I have never before or since looked at a horse with behavioral problems and thought that it was bad enough that it should be put down, but that horse was ruined. You'd have to beat the s**t out of him to even try to get him to learn to back down and I don't even know that it would work.

And I can't finish off without mentioning the intentional repeated smacking horses in the bottom/sides of the face with a metal clip to back it up. That is completely unacceptable.
As was Parelli's recorded performance working with the poor bridle shy horse, Catwalk, that I watched on Youtube, you can look that up.

From the things I've seen over the years, it's my opinion that Parelli is a a plague on the horse world. He's running a literal horse cult and he's blatantly abusive of horses while hiding behind the guise of the words "natural horsemanship" that are so misused these days. He says one thing then does another and I don't like it. I think there are some people who might get some good out of some little bits and pieces out of it, but I have so rarely seen people go into that stuff without getting sucked in. That man is a lion preying on women who are afraid of their horses and taking a massive amount of their money just to teach them games and other silliness that anyone can learn on the internet for free. I'm not buying it.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I'm not here to insult anybody who goes for his stuff, but I feel that steering anybody clear of his techniques is a blessing I'm happy to give out to anybody who will listen.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Hmmm, I do agree with pretty much all of this. I hate the way Parelli carries himself... I'm really lost at what to do, the trainer I'm working with has rather good reactions from her horses, however I do not like the training method, however well it works for her. I don't think I could do it that way. But I seem to have no choice as she is the only trainer who is not hours away! I guess I'll stick it out and see how it goes...
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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

First of all I love Missy.

Secondly, I have Nov against Parelli. I think they have good things to offer and good techniques, I am just not the biggest fan of their training style. Just personal previous.
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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

If you've got no other options, I definitely agree, go for it and take it with a grain of sand, and keep an eye out for another trainer. If you don't like Parelli methods then I think you'd probably be happier with a different trainer, but it's good that she at least gets good reactions out of her horses. If she didn't I'd say just don't even bother at all and wait for someone else.

Like most everyone said, I'm sure you'll at least find some things that you'll want to carry on with you. It's good to have a lot of tools in your toolbelt even if you won't use them all later on.
If you get RFD-TV, by any chance, I'd highly recommend also checking out Chris Cox and Craig Cameron's shows. I really like the way they do things.

Wishing you the best of luck!


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

My thoughts on Parelli - I remember about 15 or so years ago I had a Parelli book. It was called "Natural Horse-man-ship" or something to that effect, in which he described a whole range of basic exercises and his concept of horsemanship, it's probably still around. 

Now you could see the way it was written that he was playing around with how to communicate with people. I remember in my youth horse books seemed to be written like text books. There wasn't any personality in them and it was hard to get the ideas out of it. Then Parelli comes along and has this book that seems half life story, half philosophy and half horse training and it's a different kind of book. I can see why people jumped on his bandwagon, and I am sure that originally he was a good trainer, good with horses. It seems in the fifteen years between then and now Parelli hasn't worked on bettering his horsemanship though, he's worked at become a product he now sells. 

The things he talks about in the first book, about nature, not gimmicks, or how important independent seat is, remembering the horse isn't human, that there are no rules to natural horsemanship, these aren't things that he says anymore. Maybe he does sometimes but in the handful of times I've seen him I've never heard him go on about it. I've just seen him have silly bouncy balls and a big hat and talking about nice things. 

Because to sell his system he had to make it a product, which means that it's clear, marketable, achievable, assess-able and universal. When you put all those things into horse training it doesn't seem like horse training at all. His product was good, people want a list of steps that will lead them to success, they want horse handling to be a game and they want to look at themselves as the natural nice people. But that's not realistic, that's not how horses are, they're changeable, they don't follow rules. Now he is his product which strangely, has made him less effective because once you write down a system and sell it you can't change and develop, try new things, be "progressive" like he originally advocated - he has to "be Parelli".

The problem with learning Parelli is that often you're learning from someone who learned from someone who learned from someone who learned from a horseman how to train a horse. You're not learning their skills or their experience, it's all borrowed. They've all bought into this program and are now using it, but they aren't horseman. They're people who are very good at following rules. 

Out there, not on YouTube or online, but in the world there are a lot of really good trainers and really good riders who learned from meeting heaps of people, working with lots of horses and trying and failing over and over again until they got it just right. 

I guess my question wouldn't be "why are you going with Parelli" it would be "why aren't you taking advantage of all the great opportunities there are?".

Maybe your trainer is good, maybe she's average. Who knows, she still might have a lot to teach. 

But don't rely on things online, horses are hands on, use a philosophy and a trainer that's down the road, that you can ask questions about, watch demonstrations, get personalised help.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

My biggest problem with Parelli is the issue of communication. 

I've seen good and bad examples but the one consistent thing I do see is a lack of communication with the horse. (Ironic as it is.) 

I think it's very easy to see a trainer do something and unconsciously rinse and repeat without adjusting the method or realizing a horse's confusion. I had one filly come in who had been through the 'Parelli method'. The owner said the filly lunged, bathed, clipped, played the games, and picked up her feet. 

So I went to go lunge the filly and was met with 1,000lbs of nervous horse. The filly had no clue what I, OR THE OWNER, were asking her to do. The aspects of discipline and correction were so skewed and varied that the poor thing thought that when you wanted her to go to the left you were basically beating her to go to the left. Basically, the horse had NO comprehension of what it was being asked to do. It just knew to 'do it or else'. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bGT7otoDRw

Not to rag on Missy, because we all have our own different ways and methods and NONE of them are dead wrong. Personally I feel like this video is a good example of a horse who has no clue what it is being asked but 'go left or get hit'. Not in a mean way, but just with a bit more confusion then I personally like. 

I guess my point OP is that every method is different and none is right or wrong. I can point out a lot of good things I like too and a lot of good I've seen these methods do. It's up to the people who work every day with the horse to make me like something for that particular animal.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Rocky Pony, Parelli is bang on when he mentions how horses used to be treated and as for the woman thing and caves, he does try to infuse humor into his talks. This man deserves a lot of credit for removing cruelty part of handling horses. A very large following helps assure this. He is a fine horseman who is under a lot of scheduling pressure at a huge venue. Time is of the essence as there are a lot of people on the payroll and overtime is very costly. I'm going to suggest you and your mother try to open you minds and really listen and watch what he does. He's not cruel to horses behind the scenes, he's too busy to find horse time. Yes there's a viral video where things went wrong with a most difficult horse but we all make mistakes and learn from them. I suspect you and your mother don't have enough experience to appreciate the skills of a good trainer. Time to stop looking for the negative.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Saskia said:


> don't rely on things online, horses are hands on, use a philosophy and a trainer that's down the road, that you can ask questions about, watch demonstrations, get personalized help.


Bears repeating. 

IMO, an in person instructor beats video/DVD/books any day. Those resources are great supplements to an in person trainer, but having someone THERE who is experience is priceless.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Hmm. Lots to think about! Are there any trainers similar to Parelli? I know there are, I just can't think of the names. My trainers horses seem very aware of what is being asked. What concerns me is that she says they HAVE to be exercised before doing anything... Meaning she "plays tag" around a corral until they stop jumping and reading. Which is fine, the horse wasn't aggressive in any way, he WAS playing and it was obvious, but if I want to take my horse anywhere, I don't think everywhere will have an area for this as she said all horses must do it... I don't believe that. I'll just listen to her and if things don't work out with Coal, I will look into another trainer/training method! Thanks everybody! It was super interesting to read your opinions. I always thought Parelli horses seemed confused about what they were to do, but I've also seen some that know exactly what is wanted. My trainer's teaching horse (the one her riding students ride 70% of the time) seems to know a little bit, with some coaxing, but overall gets it!
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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Hmm what is your opinions on John Lyons? Mom just reminded me about our neighbor, she trains horses with John Lyons, she's just very pricey, but we may be able to have her come a few times! Mom wants us to explore as many trainers in the horse world as possible!
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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> Rocky Pony, Parelli is bang on when he mentions how horses used to be treated...This man deserves a lot of credit for removing cruelty part of handling horses....Time to stop looking for the negative.


Some people used to abuse their horses. Others did not. Depended on the person. Still does. I've read accounts from the 1800s where the only thing the man cared about was horses. I've read accounts of growing up in the west around 1900, where the writer said he lived, dreamed and thought about horses. If I try to imagine Robert E. Lee beating the tar out of Traveller to intimidate him thru pain...I fail.

I mostly started riding at 50, in 2008. But I did do a little riding when I was a teen and in my early 20s. I took some lessons at a local stable around 1972-3...not many, since I was young and my parents thought it was a waste of money. I took a semester of lessons from Mac MacArthur at Utah State around 1978. That was a couple of decades before Parelli wrote his first book. And no, none of the lessons I took involved abusing a horse. They didn't tell me it was natural for my horse & I to love each other, and they didn't tell me to play games with a horse, but they also did NOT abuse horses or teach others to do so. 

There have always been people who are harsh with horses. They exist now and they existed then. But I've got a lot of books written before Parelli was born, and I took lessons in the western USA long before he wrote a book. The people who abuse horses did so without Parelli then, and do so in spite of Parelli now. Those who cared about horses then...cared about horses then. They didn't need Parelli to teach them gentleness.

John Lyons: The lady who broke Lilly and retrained Mia started by studying to be a Lyons-approved trainer. She did an excellent job with both Lilly and Mia, and did a fine job of teaching Trooper to trust humans again after he arrived here looking like this:










He had been loaned to a ranch in Colorado for a few months, and that is how he came back - notice the spur marks, and the white spots on his withers from a poor fitting saddle.

In any case, while there are folks I like better than Lyons, the lady who started training horses by studying under his program did an excellent job with the 3 horses of ours that she worked.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

bsms said:


> In any case, while there are folks I like better than Lyons, the lady who started training horses by studying under his program did an excellent job with the 3 horses of ours that she worked.



Who do you like better? I'm really interested in reading about any trainer! If you could link me to a website or book about some trainers? That would be so awesome! Thanks 
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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

I'm a Parelli student, have close friends who are also Parelli students and we love it. I'm one of those 'didnt know a thing' older ladies who got a first horse at age 57. Top that off with it being a difficult horse because I 'didnt know what I didnt know'. I am completely sure that without help , I would have given up and sold my Sonny. Maybe I couldve found a local trainer, but I found PNH instead.

I'm aware that a whole lot of people dislike Pat,Linda and the program, to each their own and I'm not at all saying they don't have valid reasons for their feelings. I am saying that I've seen positive, really good !! results for me personally and my friends. 
Every Parelli instructor that I have met is truly awesome, but I don't know Missy. I guess there are bound to be some 'lemons' out there, I just havent met one yet.
Is his program expensive? well, it certainly can be, but at the same time, it doenst have to be..it can 'be done' quite economically. 
I wish someone from my barn was on the forum to speak for me/Sonny, but I can tell you that I am the only Parelli student at my barn, and I hear over and over what a 'good horse' Sonny is...under saddle and with groundwork. My trimmer loves him because he has such good manners. One of the guys at my barn watched a lesson several of us were having with a Parelli Instructor and he was blown away with the liberty lesson. This guy has been around horses all his life, teaches riding lessons, and he was favorably impressed. No, he didnt jump on the Parelli bandwagon, lol, or become a student,,but he's doing fine doing what he does, and I completely respect his horsemanship as well.

It's not perfect. Pat and LInda are both BIG personalities and bound to rub some folks the wrong way. The concepts are misunderstood and misrepresented by students,,esp. the 'lovey dovey, never get tough with your horsey-poo' mindset.
It's worked, is working for me, and I just wanted to share some Positive remarks about it.

Good luck with whatever path you choose!

Fay


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when you are learning, you kind of need to find one "philosophy" and stick to it for a bit, in order to find some stability. you can later decide that you like or don't like something and seek to learn a different way. but, if you are new to horses and you go deciding , in a patchwork manner, what you do or don't like , will or won't learn, about a certain training style, you 'll end up missing out on whatever that method can teach.

sometimes by taking things bits and pieces, you lose the whole.

later, when you have had exposure to other methods of training, you can say, "you know, I tried that other way, and this way IS better"


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

rocky pony said:


> I'd highly recommend also checking out Chris Cox and Craig Cameron's shows. I really like the way they do things.


Chris Cox is the only entrant who has won the Road to the Horse colt starting competition every time he has entered -- 2007, 2008, 2011 and 2015. He is also one of the very few major trainers never to have made it to the Minnesota Horse Expo, so I have never seen him in person.

I have observed Craig Cameron twice in person. He seems competent, but a couple of incidents kind of soured me on him. The first was when he said all his demonstration horses are unfiltered but other presenters cherry pick to make themselves look better. To make such a vague slam at other trainers seemed highly unprofessional.

The second negative was a session where a horse jerked the lead rope out of his hands, so he swapped the rope halter for a bridle with a snaffle bit and spent the next 10-15 minutes jerking that horse hard with a long lead rope attached to one side of the bit. I have seen many hours of Clinton Anderson (who is too harsh to suit me) and others live, and many more hours of various trainers on video, and Cameron's treatment of that horse was the cruelest thing I have ever seen a trainer do.

I'm not quite sure how Parelli gets labeled as cruel. I've seen him live during at least four separate events and never seen him do anything I would regard as cruel. I do agree with Rockypony that his use of humor is often clumsy.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> when you are learning, you kind of need to find one "philosophy" and stick to it for a bit, in order to find some stability. you can later decide that you like or don't like something and seek to learn a different way. but, if you are new to horses and you go deciding , in a patchwork manner, what you do or don't like , will or won't learn, about a certain training style, you 'll end up missing out on whatever that method can teach.
> 
> sometimes by taking things bits and pieces, you lose the whole.
> 
> later, when you have had exposure to other methods of training, you can say, "you know, I tried that other way, and this way IS better"


I agree with tinylily - is it important to get a foundation and from there you can see the differences (or not) between the various Big Name trainers and have some basis on which to determine if particular style (or part of that style) works for you.

As to specific BNT, my favorites are Chris Cox and Richard Winters. Richard and Pat used to ride together, but (WAY before Linda ever appeared) went their separate ways. They are similar in some respect, but I like Richard's presentation of his trainer better. I also know him a little bit as we would run into him at Expos when I'd go with my trainer, have ridden with him at Expo demos and see him at cow horse shows (although now that he's moved to Reno, he obviously does not frequent our shows as much). Richard is a really NICE guy (and his wife is a sweetheart, too) & he's a good horseman. I have always liked Chris' training style for the most part and got to ride with him in an Expo demo, but don't know him like I do Richard. While I don't use either's methods really (I ride with in-person trainers), I do use their books (and other trainers books) to supplement my riding/training. Just gives me another perspective on things. :wink:


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I have tried a few Nat. Horsemanship stuff and agree with most of what others are saying. I have not been to clinics but I read a few books that popped up at the second-hand-bookstore. Truly good horsemanship comes from the horse. They are the best teachers...unfortunately they don't speak our language so that can make things difficult. My advice is this: take lessons. have a local trainer. Follow them enough that they like you (odd advice but is a good measure of how devout you should be too be a functional pair) Overall watch your horse like a hawk. Anthropomorphise him sparingly- but enough that you can relate. Learn to learn from him. I learned the 'blowing in the nose trick' and the 'mare butt' from watching the horses while out shoveling manure. Use that time wisely. books are great and read them like you would a bird watching manual- as a guide to the real thing. Good luck.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Saddlebag said:


> I suspect you and your mother don't have enough experience to appreciate the skills of a good trainer. Time to stop looking for the negative.


Wow, your response was so inappropriately rude and flat out wrong that I'm not going to give you the time of day.

This response, however, is a good example of the cult mentality often seen in my 15+ years of working with horses primarily at a Parelli dominated barn.




Joel Reiter said:


> Chris Cox is the only entrant who has won the Road to the Horse colt starting competition every time he has entered -- 2007, 2008, 2011 and 2015. He is also one of the very few major trainers never to have made it to the Minnesota Horse Expo, so I have never seen him in person.
> 
> I have observed Craig Cameron twice in person. He seems competent, but a couple of incidents kind of soured me on him. The first was when he said all his demonstration horses are unfiltered but other presenters cherry pick to make themselves look better. To make such a vague slam at other trainers seemed highly unprofessional.
> 
> ...


I'll have to look more into the side of Craig Cameron that you're describing, I haven't yet seen a lot I didn't like (though I don't agree with everything he does) and have liked his sort of laid back take on things. I watched his show for a long time and I thoroughly enjoyed his performance that I watched at the Horse Expo, it had the same laid back feel I've liked about him, but I'm curious now because that all sounds pretty awful.

I agree that Chris Cox is miles above. He has been a true role model to me over the years, that man really understands horses. He hasn't always done things the best way but he admits it and doesn't knock others for being any different. He seems very confident but humble and gives credit to the horses which I love. His performances at RTTH have blown everybody else out of the water and he's always done it with kindness, fairness, and understanding. I have a lot of respect for the man.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

kewpalace said:


> Richard is a really NICE guy (and his wife is a sweetheart, too) & he's a good horseman.


Yes, if there was Mr. Congeniality award for horse trainers, Richard Winters would be right up there, and his wife Cheryl is a truly nice person. They're the kind of people you would feel safe leaving your grandchildren with.

I have also found Stacy Westfall to be a sweet and humble person, and Julie Goodnight was generous and helpful to me (and I appreciate that she never goes into the arena without a helmet).


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

bsms said:


> I don't like the "no iron" approach. I find bits pretty useful, both in training a horse and communicating with one.


I don't think it's fair to disparage Parelli because somebody who is a Parelli trainer has a thing against bits and spurs. "No iron" is not a Parelli doctrine.



bsms said:


> I've been on more than my fair share of bolts. A good curb bit can do wonders. The snaffle worked wonders too, yesterday. Caught him in the middle of his first leap forward and turned him around. Two circles left and one right. Then he was ready to listen to me again.


I've done the same thing in a rope halter, and I didn't have to turn circles. Training stops a horse, not hardware.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ I wrote NOTHING about Parelli. The OP wrote (post #1): "I was going to use Missy Wryn" and I quoted and commented on her approach. Commenting on someone mentioned in post #1 using quotes from that person and saying why I dislike her approach is entirely fair.

"I've done the same thing in a rope halter, and I didn't have to turn circles. Training stops a horse, not hardware."

As I pointed out in the same post: "I've also ridden out quite a few bolts in a bitless bridle (rope sidepull, very similar to what she sells)...and had to just wait until the horse stopped running..."

I've ridden multiple bolts in sidepulls, snaffles and curbs. Curb bits are a piece of equipment that makes it easier to stop a bolt than a snaffle does, and a snaffle makes it easier than a rope halter does. Been there, many times, with all three. Same horse. It was the curb bit that made it possible to train her to stop and stand still when afraid - and there are good, mechanical reasons why a curb bit is good at curbing (restraining) an excited horse. The didn't get the name "curb bit" for no reason.

Some tack makes it easier to train than other tack. A snaffle makes it easier to teach things involving turning than a curb does. A curb is good at teaching a straight ahead stop or reduction in speed. A rope halter is the least effective tool for getting a horse to change its head position, which makes it the least useful TOOL to use in that sort of training.

In any case, this thread is not the place to debate if bits are worthwhile. Suffice it to say most trainers, including most of the NH trainers mentioned on this thread, find bits a useful training tool and a useful tool for communicating with a horse. I'll repeat Missy's quote and my response:"_How many runaways have you been on with a bit in the horse's mouth - how well did the bit work then?_"

I've been on more than my fair share of bolts. A good curb bit can do wonders. The snaffle worked wonders too...​That is my opinion, but it is based on being on a bolting horse many times and finding, by experimentation, what worked. I would not "follow" a trainer who disparages bits and claims they are not helpful in, yes, controlling a horse. But I also would not follow a NH trainer who says, "_Your true desire to love and be loved by your horse is natural to you and your horse..._" Horses have no natural desire to love humans. Someone who doesn't understand that has no business calling themselves a "natural horseman"...


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh yeah, I forgot about Richard Winters, he's a great guy. He comes from the next town over from the town I grew up in so I feel a connection with him and am excited for his success.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

bsms said:


> ^^ I wrote NOTHING about Parelli. The OP wrote (post #1): "I was going to use Missy Wryn"


I apologize for my confusion. I have never heard of Missy Wryn and did not track the distinction that the OP was making between Wryn and Parelli. My fault.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Hey this is off topic to my original question, but I didn't want to start a new post. 

Whenever I go out there, Coal's ears are nearly ALWAYS back. Not in an aggressive way, but in a kinda "ehh what are you doing?" Way. I'm not sure what to do! It seems that in Parelli you would wait... But i have waited, he stays the same...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

oh yes and he always sweats... A lot.. Almost drenched. After nearly nothing. My trainer says it is a nervous sweat, is it true? What can I do about it. She says just do what you were doing anyway. And also, one last thing, how can I figure out what his "horseanality" is?
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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

emmm....horsenality isn't the most accurate way to adjust your training to your horse. It is possible your horse is really nervous and sweating a lot- when my mare has a good day she barely breaks a sweat. Bad day? better grab the sweat scraper. Do what you can to be clear about what you want with your horse. Give him a chance to 'debrain' after something difficult and stressful. Praise often. Nervous horses seem to do better in my experience with a lot a lot a lot of positive reinforcement.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I personally think Parelli is a good basis to start with, I like the 7 games but I wouldn't ride like him. I believe once I get on that horse it is business time I no longer want to play games I want to do the work I have set out to do. I know someone who does parelli and rides like parelli which is great but I don't agree with what she does which is they should be allowed to have loose rein all the time. I have been taught to ride with short reins.

Each to their own though! Some people say it worked for them and others say it didn't it is what works for you and your horse!


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

Ok so I worked with him today. It went... Well... I'm not sure. So early this morning I went up there, we worked on backing, and a bit of the "circling" game. He didn't get the circling game well and I didnt understand how to help him along. His backing got much better! Afterwards he was groomed and returned for a few hours. 

Me and my cousin went back out with the intent to ride him... Alright so, he did ok with the saddling, needs some work. And then came the bit.. He is afraid of his bridle. He just couldn't do it! We eventually calmed him down again and got it on him. He most definitely has not been trained to use one correctly... How can I get him comfortable with it? He doesn't know where his tongue should sit and he pulls it up and down and out.

Now the last thing is he EXTREMELY herd sour. If he is away from his lead donkey he will do anything to get back to him. I dont know how to break him of the habit. Once I was up, all he wanted to do was run down the hill to his bud. It took a while to calm him down, he was still a forward horse. Any tips? Which parts of Parelli should I watch first??
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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if he is herd sour, and wont accept the bit, then riding him will not be easy, or safe.

has your trainer said it's time to saddle up and ride?

you see, the emotional state of your horse is a real barometer of whether or not he is ready to be ridden. if he's so fearful that he cannot let go of his need to be near his donkey, and if he's extremely anxious about a bridle, then he is not in a good state , mentally, for you to hop on his back.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> if he is herd sour, and wont accept the bit, then riding him will not be easy, or safe.
> 
> has your trainer said it's time to saddle up and ride?
> 
> you see, the emotional state of your horse is a real barometer of whether or not he is ready to be ridden. if he's so fearful that he cannot let go of his need to be near his donkey, and if he's extremely anxious about a bridle, then he is not in a good state , mentally, for you to hop on his back.


I have only ridden twice because of this. He is not too bad, he is just a little shaky having not been ridden in over a year before us! I only see my trainer once a week, and won't be seeing her next week, she only said to start working on some ground work Parelli games while she was away!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Given what you are describing, I'd start with the "I'll lead you where I want to go" game. Turn that into "We'll go on long walks together" game. Maybe work on the "Honey tastes good on a bit mouthpiece" game...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Are you ok with riding a "shaky" horse? I always feel that a good rider will be ok on a "shaky" horse, but a "shaky" rider will need a good horse.

I am a fair rider, but I am old enough to not want to put my butt and my life on a shaky horse. I want to be more certain than not that I will have brakes, and steering, and no bucks or rears. I can deal with a little bit of "shaky", becuase I have enough ability to become an authority figure to get that herdbound horse to let go of his thoughts and follow mine, as long as he's not totally nutso herdbound.
but, 16 years ago, when I started riding, I would have felt very scared to get on a "shaky" horse, and today, though I am not so scared, I am smart enough to not go there anyhow, 'cause I value my bones.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Start at the beginning.Level 1. What educational materials do u have access to?
As you far as horsenalities....its another way to do what mosk folks on here have learned to do ...they just don't call it horsenalities . Its about reading your horse...is he confident or unconfident? Does he get flighty and need to move his feet when he is unconfident or does he tend to shut down? When he is confident, is he playful or mouthy or does he get sluggish andresentful that he's being made to move? However he is....in that moment...helps u decide the best strategies to get the best result.....ear position,soft or hard eyes, tight or relaxed chin, clamped or switching tail, cocked leg, head high or low, wide eyed, flared nostrils....all those things and more help us know an about "where his head is". 
I am an introvert but I can appear and act extroverted when circumstances motivate me to. Your horse has an innate character or ," horsenalities" but circumstances can cause him to behave other than his innate responses might be. So, although it's good to know your horses basic "horsenalitiy" , you must continually read his ....in that moment...emotional state. Again, its what folks on here do all the time, just the terminology is different.
I don't get why the word and concept throws some people especially the ones that are so clearly good at reading horses.....because that's all it is about...a tool to help people learn how to learn that skill and develop a horseman's feel and timing.
Hope that helps. 
Riding on a loose rein (with the goal of riding bridleless) is the Freestyle part of the program. Riding with a concentrated rein is in the Finesse part of the program...so, no, Parelli riding isn't always and no other way than on a loose rein, by the way.And if the situation makes me want to shorten my reins to feel more confident I don't hesitate to do so!
Happy horsein around....
Fay


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## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

I had never looked into any of the perelli / roberts stuff. When dealing with my horses i just did it and used what worked for me and the horses. i have discovered that i am using a roberts type method. When i saw perellis methods, i was kind of shocked! I would NEVER do that. Half the time i can not tell what the instructor is trying to do so i can't tell how the horse ever will. If i think a horse is looking a bit confused i stop and rethink how i can tell it what i want.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

If he is putting his tongue all over the place with the bit I would have his teath examined by your vet to see if he has any sharp points and maybe consider changing his bit. What kind of bit do you have him in right now?


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## Warden (Aug 6, 2014)

If you like and trust your trainer you should give it a whirl! You can learn something from everybody.


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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

are there any other "homeschooling" programs like Parelli? I would like to use one as a guide, but I'm not sure what other well know trainers have them.. Any ideas?
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## camcam78910 (Jun 15, 2015)

oh and coal is becoming more curious of me when I go out to sit with him and my donkey. If the donkey allows him haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

The actual training program holds merit. Where I tend to have issues is with the people teaching it. I have no respect for Pat Parelli, although he is a decent horse trainer. I don't think he is gifted at communication, which makes the program hard to understand for people just getting into horses - I think Linda is better at communication, actually. And, I don't think Pat is as effective as he could be when it comes to training horses. I think there's faster, better ways to train horses and get excellent results.

I think the emphasis in his program is to get the horse to do a lot of cool things, like liberty and tricks, but I'm finding an unusual pattern in Parelli trained horses - most of those horses tend to have unhappy, bored faces, almost disrespectful, sometimes.

I think CA is best at getting that disrespectfulness out.

But, like any horse trainer should be, I believe that it's best to keep an open mind. I am willing to learn from anyone, including Parelli, but I don't think the Parelli program is good enough to make me base all my training on it.


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