# My Shetland Mare was accidentally bred by an AQHA stallion?



## HeatherGavitt

I did not know that my Shetland was Prego until about 1 month ago when she started to bag up. Everyone kept saying that she looked prego but Sugar has always been on the pudgy side, so I did not pay it any mind. Plus we had just put them back out on pasture about a month prior, which is when the weight gain started. I have a AQHA Gelding(recently gelded) that I know is the only candidate for the father. Her now 2 year old son is still in tact but is not interested in girls yet nor was he anywhere near being ready a year ago. So my question is do I have anything to worry about being that my pony is about 12.4...maybe smaller and the sire is about 15.2. We live in a small town in GA and have vets but they are not terribly concerned about what I am asking..My vets answer to will she have problems was " we will have to wait and see". That is not very comforting! She has had one baby to my knowledge, maybe more but only one with me. No complications with 1st..had him on her own outside in the pasture at about 8 AM. When she was prego with Moon(1st) she was HUGE. she is about that same size now..maybe a touch smaller. I do not know when she id due as this was not a planned thing obviously. Should I be worried that she has had milk for a full month now? No change in milk color, has been clearish white the whole time.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Pics*

Paint is my pony
Chestnut is the Stallion
I will upload some better pictures, but since they r about the same distance away you can see the difference in size.


----------



## GreySorrel

If you think the 2 year old intact male isn't interested in mares yet, your not being honest with yourself. Just because you haven't seen him show any interest doesn't mean he hasn't or just not when your around. WHY was your pony mare even in with two male intact horses to begin with? Or is that not a correct assumption and somehow she got herself with foal? Oh, and it is PREGNANT..not prego..that is a spaghetti sauce...


----------



## NdAppy

The intact 2yo could have very well gotten her pregnant as well...

When was she first put out with the then intact AQHA gelding? Has she been housed with both the 2yo and the new gelding?

Why was she put in with intact males in the first place?


----------



## Piaffe

It says the 2 year is her son. Maybe he was just never weaned/separated.

It isn't too common for a foal to grow too big because of the sires size. I've know several people to breed 12-13 hand ponies to a 15.2 Andalusian stud. There were never any problems that I heard of. 

Good luck either way!


----------



## themacpack

Your vets answer may nor be comforting but it is the only answer to be given....the fact is that at this.point all you can do is wait and see.


----------



## texasgal

Heather, your question is whether him being a full size horse and your mare being a pony can cause complications...?

I've know people who purposely bred large stallions to pony mares (don't ask me why) and the mares had no problems foaling. The foals seemed to conform to the size of the mare until after birth and then they grew like crazy.

Having said that .. as I'm sure you know .. ANY foaling can have complications and it is best to be prepared for that with any foal. I would not be overly concerned with baby-daddy size, but keep it in mind.

I hope your vets are more responsive should you need them in an emergency.

Oh, and get that young stallion away from mares .. he is definitely capable of doing the deed.

Hope it all goes well for you ..

~tg

Oh, and your pony is precious!


----------



## Roperchick

you cant really know. no pregnancy is gonna be the same.

all you can do is wait.

good luck with it and keep us updated!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Okay since everyone is jumping to conclusions...I STATED IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! Which means she was not housed with him but they do not get "pregnant" from air! Her son was a YEAR old at the time...he was weaned but they would be together from time to time....I am assuming that one weekend when I was away for work, her and my now gelding...gelded him so that this does not happen again...since you guys think I did this on purpose apparently...had a meeting that no one told me about. I asked for advice not criticism. You are the people who remind me why i "do not" post on these. Accidents happen and it did, now I am trying to do whats best for her...Piaffe thanks for being positive and actually reading!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

My Quarter is gelded, I am waiting on her son until it cools off..don't want him having problems with bugs and flies. I don't have to worry right now as she is separated from everyone in individual turnout. 
Thanks to all the positive help too..!
She seems to be a little more "jittery" the last few days..sometimes pacing the fenceline to the point where I have to bring her back in. She also seems to have more milk the last few days, no change in color but more milk.


----------



## GreySorrel

Sorry Heather, not going to pat you on the head and say oh poor girl...accidents happen. If you had taken care of this BEFORE they got too far into their maturity, if you had proper fencing and DID NOT put an intact male in with your mare, that would of greatly helped and been a bit more responsible with having a mare in the first place. We have gelded horses in Texas at this time and they were fine, rather some discomfort, flies and heat than what your dealing with. 

And yes, while mares can have foals from a larger stallion, I have also had a good friend who breeds foundation QH loose a mare who had been bred to a larger stallion, the foal was too big and she ruptured and ripped. So in anything, it is a crap shoot.


----------



## NdAppy

We did read what you posted. Your OP looks like you housed them together. No where in there did you say she was not housed with either the 2yo or the AQHA. 

I suggest if you don't want to feel "jumped on" you provide more information or you take the responses that you get.

Have you actually had the mare checked at all to know for sure she is pregnant or are you going off a "maybe" since you don't state that either...

and yes her son was more than old enough at 1yo to impregnate her...


----------



## Roperchick

its too late to worry about why the mare was bred or how it happened now yall (hehe obviously with a muffin in the oven) 

p.s.
have any recent pictures of her? shes quite the cutie btw


----------



## ThirteenAcres

She stated that the now 2 year old was only a yearling when the foal was conceived. She wasn't saying that the pony mare was pastured in with a 2 year old, though having just found out she is pregnant, she HAS been pastured with a now 2 year old and the recently cut gelding for the extent of her pregnancy (which we don't know because she did not state how far along she is, but hinted that she's already close to foaling).

To answer the question, I have heard that generally a foal will not grow too large in utero for the mare, but will do its growing when it is birthed. Event breeding horses of similar heights, a foal can grow too large. 

My mare was born to a 14.1 mare and a 15hh stallion, and my mare was a red bag birth and pulled because she was so large.


----------



## CLaPorte432

No one is saying that you PURPOSELY bred the mare. But the fact that the mare and her intact colt have been pastured together is just completely irresponsible. I know MANY yearlings that have bred mares and the owners didn't know until it was too late.

And it sounds like the colt and mare were together far more often then the AQHA. Therefore, it's very possible, the colt bred his dam.

Once the foal is born, I'd do DNA test to figure out for sure who is the sire.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Yes she has been checked, she was too small for him to comfortably palpate her, so he did an ultrasound and said that the baby is very close to full term. I am not asking for anyone to feel sorry for me, I wanted to see what peoples experience was. WOW. I am a very responsible owner and take very good care of my animals. My fencing is all in good shape, but when I am not there and I have hired hands, I cannot know what happens. Obviously she got turned out with my stud(gelding). But it was not on purpose. And My gelding is an AQHA registered stallion and her son is a registered Shetland. Was not planning on gelding my AQHA stud...but I did not want to risk this happening again so I did the "responsible" thing and gelded him. Her son has an appointment when it cools off. 
I know my horses and I know that her baby was not and did not breed her, I am not saying that a yearling cannot breed I am saying he did not breed her. So that being said I think I answered all that you said I did not!


----------



## NdAppy

Sorry but unless you watched her son every second that he was turn out with her you _do not know_ that he did not breed her. You _do not know_ for sure who bred her.


----------



## GreySorrel

Exactly HOW do you know he did not breed her? If you were not there while they were out together, it is a great likelihood he did. If the workers worked for you then I would of thought you told them who to put together and who not to, least that is what I would of done.


----------



## Roperchick

okay yall seriously. her question was "is the mare gonna have trouble with a big foal?"...that question has been answered.
does it really matter right this second who she was bred to or how it happened?
No. what matters is that this mare has a baby cookin and the OP was concerned abou how the birth was gonna go.
She WASNT asking to be grilled about keeping a young stud in with the mare, or having an accidental breeding.

honestly i dont see how interrogating her and repeatedly saying SHE CANT KNOW who bred to the mare is constructive. it happened and shes dealing with it.


----------



## texasgal

Well, we DO know that SOMEBODY bred her .. and it sounds like she is doing what she needs to in order to get a baby safely here ..

Again, OP, I hope it all goes well for you ..

~tg


----------



## ladytaurean515

Where were the stallions kept according to where the mare was kept? From the pictures none of those fences are stallion proven..so the breeding could have been through the fence if they ever shared fence lines.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I know everything always goes exactly as planned every time you leave too. No one ever makes mistakes. We have 14 horses on this farm and things do happen. I got the answers I asked for. 
Thanks everyone.
I will post a few new pics of sugar the other day to compare size.


----------



## ladytaurean515

Heather..first off you need to drop your atttitude you're directing at everyone. People will voice their opinions if you dont like them then ignore them! But people state things because it is seen here ALL the time where people ignorantly allow breeding and then come here and ask for advice and that is upsetting. No one says anyone is prefect! I currently have 2 mares pregnant due to accidental breeding..Wasn't even a stallion of mine..was due to neighbor unable to properly house and fence in a stallion he had. So I simply asked how they were housed and what fencing or space between them?


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Sugar*

1 week ago


----------



## ThirteenAcres

Good luck! Post baby pics when the foal arrives! =)

And I agree. I'd go ahead and DNA test the foal and see who daddy was and if it is a colt, get it gelded asap with the other colt.


----------



## ladytaurean515

To answer the original question..most mares can safely carry a foal from a larger stud.....just as for any foaling there can be problems so watch and observe and watching for signs of stress or something not progressing when she is showing for sure signs of laboring...ALSO after foal is born you want to make sure foal is able to nurse. Sometimes foals born from parents of big differences in size can out grow their mom and have a hard time nursing.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Moon*

Her now 2 year old baby.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I have colostrum on hand, and milk in case there are any problems. 
Our Stallions go out at night here at this farm, where she was bred was not here.
There is adequate fencing, hot wire and field fence between everyone. This farm is not where it happened. 
I will post pics ASAP of new baby...I just can't wait, I want everyone to be healthy and happy..the not knowing is driving me nuts...
And if it is a colt, it will be gelded as soon as he is able to be!
I never want anything to happen to any of my animals so this was a lesson learned and I will do everything in my power to make sure this never happens again.

This pic did not upload...this is her baby from 2 years ago.
Moon


----------



## texasgal

I see the Moon pic now .. and Sugar is cute!

Heather, that's all you can do at this point .. learn and move on. And you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.. share what you choose to share.

What do you do with your QH gelding?


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I don't really think a DNA is necessary, I am sure I will know soon after birth who is the daddy..and they will all be gelded. So as long as the baby is healthy, I don't care who the daddy is!


----------



## Roperchick

i can see the Moon pic now! hes adorable! good luck


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*My daughters new Pony Willow*

Off the subject but here is my daughters new pony Willow


----------



## texasgal

Well, she's cute.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I have 4 horses (now 5 with kaylies new pony and will be 6 with baby) wow...6...anyways I have a 14 year old AQHA gelding that I mostly just work cows on, but the Chestnut stallion I rescued as a two year old. He was born with contracted tendons and can only be lightly ridden in my opinion. He was never treated as a colt and by the time I got him all that could be done was to do corrective trims. He can now move with very little limp, the vet says the limp is not pain, it is due to his pigeon toe on the right front. So he is basically a lawn mower. 
I love him no matter what, he has a forever home with me.


----------



## Bridgertrot

Just wanted to chime in a little. I really wish there would be an end to the small mare bred to large stud "baby too big can cause complications" theory. Some may not know this...but it is the fetus that controls the birth. Once the fetus "decides" it's "house" is too small for it, it releases hormones ( which I believe are called Corticotropin Releasing Hormones) to signal to the mare to begin parturition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Thank you Bridgertrot...
so would that mean if the baby got too big that it could be born early or premature?


----------



## Cacowgirl

Willow is a curtie-how tall is she?


----------



## HeatherGavitt

She is about 14 if I had to guess..have not sticked her...maybe a touch smaller. She is for sure the large end of pony.


----------



## CLaPorte432

Is Willow pregnant too? Lol, look at the belly on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## themacpack

Bridgertrot said:


> Just wanted to chime in a little. I really wish there would be an end to the small mare bred to large stud "baby too big can cause complications" theory. Some may not know this...but it is the fetus that controls the birth. Once the fetus "decides" it's "house" is too small for it, it releases hormones ( which I believe are called Corticotropin Releasing Hormones) to signal to the mare to begin parturition.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If this were the case there would be no dystocia complications related to fetal/pelvic disproportion. It is not just about uterine size, the skeletal strictures of mother and fetus are where the complications due to size arise and the fetus has no idea how large or small the females pelvis is based on how it feels in its "house". The point is a fetus can be "too big".....but that can arise from any parental size combination.


----------



## GreySorrel

Bridgertrot said:


> Just wanted to chime in a little. I really wish there would be an end to the small mare bred to large stud "baby too big can cause complications" theory. Some may not know this...but it is the fetus that controls the birth. Once the fetus "decides" it's "house" is too small for it, it releases hormones ( which I believe are called Corticotropin Releasing Hormones) to signal to the mare to begin parturition.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Nooo your not quite right in your deduction Bridgertrot...*
*Equine fetal development is relative to the size of the space available for growth and development. If the mare is very short barreled she is far more likely to produce smaller foals than a mare that has a very long abdomen. In today's world many Shetland mares have difficulty foaling.*
*Many times long barreled mares bred to small stallions produce very large foals all the same because that foal had lots of room to grow and develop. If that mare with the long barrel happens to have a small pelvis this becomes a serious problem! *
*By the same token a short barreled mare bred to a very large stallion, one that is considerably bulkier or taller than she, can produce foals too bulky to pass through the pelvis as well. The shape and size of the foal MUST conform to the shape and size of the pelvis! Unfortunately without a good repro examination one cannot tell the size or shape of the pelvis. Large mares can still have misshapen or small pelvises. So I would be very hesitant to make blanket statements like you did that it is okay to breed a small framed mare to a large stallion...
*


----------



## stevenson

Heather, has she waxed up ? Mares will usually wax up prior to foaling. My Mimis mother Helena was a smaller mare bred to a draft NOT by me, she was a PMU rescue, and Mimi was half the size of Helena when she was born, and she just slid right out ! If she got in with her son at any time he had developed testes he could be the daddy as well as the quarter horse. GLad to know you got the quarter gelded, and I find it easier on the colts to geld in cooler weather because of the flys. I hope she has an easy birth and you have a pretty baby from it. You can name it Boo Boo


----------



## kayleeloveslaneandlana

I'm subbing! I can't wait for baby pics, I hope everything goes well.


----------



## MsBHavin

HeatherGavitt said:


> I know everything always goes exactly as planned every time you leave too. No one ever makes mistakes. We have 14 horses on this farm and things do happen. I got the answers I asked for.
> Thanks everyone.
> I will post a few new pics of sugar the other day to compare size.




I guess I'm confused. You said you had him gelded so this would never happen again. He's done it once already? and then you go on to say you have 14 horses, then you say you only have 5. Not trying to start anything, just wanting clarification I guess.


----------



## texasgal

There are 14 horses ON THE FARM ... doesn't mean they are all hers. The colt is gelded so it WON'T happen again ..

Pretty simple..


----------



## MsBHavin

texasgal said:


> There are 14 horses ON THE FARM ... doesn't mean they are all hers. The colt is gelded so it WON'T happen again ..
> 
> Pretty simple..



If she knew the mare was bred,and gelded the stud....why come online and ask a bunch of strangers if she was pregnant?

Pretty simple.....


----------



## texasgal

She never asked if she was pg. The way I read it is she finally realized mare was indeed pg .. gelded the stud .. separated her from the other horses .. and is concerned about size of baby issues and that the mare has been bagged up for a month ... ? The mare has had an ultrasound according to owner and is in foal.

Oh, Heather .. some mares bag up really early and I wouldn't be too concerned about that unless she starts streaming milk for days .. then there is the possibility of lost colotrum.


----------



## ButtInTheDirt

I've seen a 14.2 Arab mare bred to an around 18 hand (maybe taller) Clydesdale stallion. It was an accident but it must have been fine as both the mother and foal are healthy. There could always be complications in any pregnancy as many have stated so be prepared.


----------



## Melissa1984

Where did she ask if the mare was pregnant???? Maybe you need to read the op over again


----------



## MsBHavin

Melissa1984 said:


> Where did she ask if the mare was pregnant???? Maybe you need to read the op over again


I guess when you see 'zomg is she preg?!?!' and 'gee, i never thought the boys would breed her' threads you lump them all together.


----------



## NdAppy

As it seems from the OP's posts that she has read here for a while, she would know that a good portion of the members frown upon irresponsible breeding practices. And that is exactly what this situation is and she should have expected people were going to be upset with the situation and voice their opinions. 

I also would like to know how the OP goes from having 14 horses (no where does she state they belong to others so it leaves readers to believe that they belong to the OP) to only having 5 with one on the way... That was and is a perfectly legitimate question...

Posting half information only leaves it up to the reader to fill that gaps and is not something a person should be mad about because the readers could do nothing more than ask questions, which is what I and others did before the OPs panties got in a knot. All the questions were/are perfectly legitimate based on the little information that the OP provided...


----------



## Melissa1984

I guess I can understand where you got that from now!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Sorry..did not know this was going to be this dramatic.*

I do not own all 14 horses, we are at my family's farm. I have exactly what I stated...5 with one on the way. All I really wanted to know has already been answered. I appreciate all the positive and negatives, I guess that's what some people thrive on. And that is okay. It is what it is. Thanks for all the responses but I guess we can put this to rest. I will keep in touch..and post pictures.


----------



## tinyliny

Well, both the mother and the father look like they are nicely built equines, so you will hopefuly have a really nice quarter pony, which are in high demand these days.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

My pony is a little sickle hocked but otherwise good build, the quarter is built pretty nice though. I am excited to see what they throw, just nervous because I don't want anything to happen to mom or baby!


----------



## stevenson

HeatherGavitt said:


> I did not know that my Shetland was Prego until about 1 month ago when she started to bag up. Everyone kept saying that she looked prego but Sugar has always been on the pudgy side, so I did not pay it any mind. Plus we had just put them back out on pasture about a month prior, which is when the weight gain started. I have a AQHA Gelding(recently gelded) that I know is the only candidate for the father. Her now 2 year old son is still in tact but is not interested in girls yet nor was he anywhere near being ready a year ago. So my question is do I have anything to worry about being that my pony is about 12.4...maybe smaller and the sire is about 15.2. We live in a small town in GA and have vets but they are not terribly concerned about what I am asking..My vets answer to will she have problems was " we will have to wait and see". That is not very comforting! She has had one baby to my knowledge, maybe more but only one with me. No complications with 1st..had him on her own outside in the pasture at about 8 AM. When she was prego with Moon(1st) she was HUGE. she is about that same size now..maybe a touch smaller. I do not know when she id due as this was not a planned thing obviously. Should I be worried that she has had milk for a full month now? No change in milk color, has been clearish white the whole time.


 Heather, all most everyone is wishing you and your mare the best. 
Take the other comments with a grain of salt, so you dont give yourself undo stress.


----------



## Bridgertrot

I guess I should have gone into more detail. You all responding to mine are correct as well. I just forgot to mention the pelvis part lol I've only taken a basic repro anatomy and physiology class so I only know so much. But next semester I'll be taking a full repro course -evil cackle-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## texasgal

Bridge .. you were talking about the size of the "house" ... not the size of the "door" .. *wink*


----------



## HorseLovinLady

Good luck with the foaling and welcome to the forum!!


----------



## Clayton Taffy

I hope even though your horse got prego, You get a nice little foal out of it.
Cheer up, your other horse could have been a Perch or a Clyde.

Good luck to you!!


----------



## Chiilaa

Have either parent been tested for frame? Surely as your QH was a stud used for breeding you already know his frame status.


----------



## texasgal

Her QH was a stud used for breeding?


----------



## oh vair oh

LOL. I don't even want to think about how funny it would look for a 15.2 horse kneeling down on a 12hh pony... he must have good aim


----------



## MyLittlePonies

Yeah, that kind of made me think of trying to breed a miniature to my pony mare. Only way I could see it happening. Is digging a big hole and putting my mare in it......

Anyways, it might be possible for the qh stud to breed her, but even I had to help my stallion when breeding my mare. He's used to the taller girls....

I wasn't making fun of you heather. Have you tested her milk with test strips? That could give you an idea. As for desiding the sire, wait till it pops out. The color of the foal could help you. I haven't look at the pictures so if they are the same color and what not sorry. I personally believe in the fact that the foal only grows as big as his mamma can give him. With the smaller ponies I would keep my vet on speed dial as they can have trouble foaling. Miniatures are the biggest example of foaling issues. Good luck and I hope to see pictures.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Thanks*

I did not say I used my stallion for breeding. He was a rescue and it was summer time when I got him, so I had to wait to geld him. 
I cannot imagine what my stress level would be if the daddy was anything bigger than Classic(chestnut).
I am not taking anything that anyone says to heart, I just wish people would not be so quick to get mean and start throwing stones. But it is okay.
I take very good care of all of my animals. On top of caring for all 14 horses, I am a single mother of a 3 years old, I have 2 jobs and go to school full time...so I have my plate full and I just wanted some advice on what to look for.
I know these forums can be like this so I should have expected it.
This is the first time I have ever joined or used a forum of any kind, so I guess I just have to learn how to word things to keep the sharks away...lol!
Anyways thanks for all the support and help..pics asap..I cannot wait.


----------



## texasgal

Soooo .. welcome to the forum, Heather! lol

Be sure to post lots of pics and you'll have plenty of people (and sharks) stalking your foaling thread. We all wish you the best .. I'm sure.

~tg


----------



## ThursdayNext

HeatherGavitt said:


> I am not taking anything that anyone says to heart, I just wish people would not be so quick to get mean and start throwing stones. But it is okay.


I just wish that they'd stay on topic if they're going to start slinging stones. This is a thread about whether there is an issue about a small mare carrying the foal of a large stallion. People with hot buttons about breeding should not be using this thread to soapbox about that. 



HeatherGavitt said:


> I know these forums can be like this so I should have expected it.
> This is the first time I have ever joined or used a forum of any kind, so I guess I just have to learn how to word things to keep the sharks away...lol!


You can go crazy trying to figure out how to word stuff to avoid picking up strident and irrelevant criticism - probably best not to waste too much time, and just to ignore responses that go off the deep end. Your question was reasonable - the stream of off-topic stuff was not your fault. Especially since your post is flagged with the "new poster" mark that instructs forum members to refrain from the kind of stuff we've seen in this thread. 

Can't wait to see pictures of the baby! I hope that it's an easy foaling for your mare and for you!!


----------



## Chiilaa

HeatherGavitt said:


> And My gelding is an AQHA registered stallion and her son is a registered Shetland. Was not planning on gelding my AQHA stud


I didn't assume anything. Your post clearly states that you didn't want to geld him, you wanted him as a stud. The only logical reason to keep a horse as a stud is to breed. So no, I didn't just jump to a conclusion.

As I said before, I would be worried if neither parent had been tested for frame. Both breeds have frame, and without a test, you have no way of knowing if it is there. Should you really luck out, both parents could have frame, and you could end up with a lethal white foal. It's too late now, but that's the reality of it.


----------



## Melissa1984

I can't wait to see pics of the foal.


----------



## redpony

Subbing for foal pics!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Happy to be a minnow inf sharks...with some sweet guppies! lol
Thanks for the warm welcome!


----------



## MyLittlePonies

Subbbing for foal picks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MyLittlePonies

I wasn't saying you were breeding him, but it is possible the qh may have done the deed. Has she been physically changing besides bagging up? Any eating habit differences? Stop eating perhaps?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

She has shown other signs...weight gain(only belly), sometimes her belly will be big ob one side and small on the other. Not much for appetite change but I notice she is a little more moody at times, and seems more "tired" looking in her eyes. All the same general symptoms with her first baby...she ate the morning she had moon..and had him 2 hours later. I am pretty sure it was my quarter..moon was less than a year old and had not even dropped his testicles when she would have gotten pregnant. Can't say prego on here because apparently thats only for spaghetti sauce! lol


----------



## Clayton Taffy

*BEWARE*

The spaghetti police are out there!!!!!


----------



## ThirteenAcres

I am positively terrified of the chance of a lethal white myself. It is best to be aware of what it is in case the foal IS a lethal white. It is heartbreaking, and not to other jump on the soap box, but you should look into it in case the fates decide that. 

If it is, you will need to euthanize the foal humanely so it will not suffer. 

Hopefully that won't be so, though. 

The forum can be very tricky, and sometimes you'll get advice that comes off as harsh or chiding. But most everyone has their heart in the right place, and the information and support you can find here far outweigh the bad.


----------



## Tejas

Taffy Clayton said:


> *BEWARE*
> 
> The spaghetti police are out there!!!!!


LOL!


Oh geeze. Whats happened is happened. Let's hope the OP learns the importance of keeping uncut stallions away from her mares.

Anyway! Good luck on your foaling! Please keep us in the loop as a lot of us are actually worried about you and the horse. Not so worried about correcting your mistakes. Please just learn from them.. and make sure you have a GOOD REPUTABLE vet on standby!


----------



## Jumperforjoy

Subbing, excited to see a bouncing little baby..


----------



## Misty'sGirl

Really hope the mare and foal are healthy. But seriously Heather, have you had mare and stud tested for frame? I'm not sniping, it is *lethal*. Your vets sound pretty useless in terms of answering your question but if I were you I'd give them a call anyway and speak to them about testing. 

You've either missed or ignored the questions about frame, so if you don't know what it is then please ask us. 

Yeah, some people can be rude on here, *BUT* that is because we are concerned for the welfare of the horses. We're here for a love of horses, and if not all the details are given then we have to fill in the blanks and often come to an upsetting conclusion which is sometimes wrong. But it is only because we hate seeing horses suffering and want the best for them.

PLEASE test your horses for frame. Yes it may be too late now, but it is better to be prepared...


----------



## Foxhunter

Many years ago a friend's Shetland escaped and managed to get through five fields to where a TB stallion was. 
As she was small and he was a genuine 16.2 and the field was flat it was thought that nothing could have happened,.
She produced a colt and with no problems, she was also a maiden mare. 
The foal grew to 14.2 and was a spectacular pony.


----------



## texasgal

Re: Testing for frame

All the tests in the world aren't going to change what this baby already is. Frame has been mentioned and explained. She has access to a computer so she can, and probably has, looked it up. If the foal is born white, she can deal with it then.

Really, and I'm not being snarky, posters are not required to answer every question asked. She has been alerted, we don't know that she wasn't already aware, and after that, it's not our business.

IMO


----------



## Clayton Taffy

texasgal said:


> Re: Testing for frame
> 
> All the tests in the world aren't going to change what this baby already is. Frame has been mentioned and explained. She has access to a computer so she can, and probably has, looked it up. If the foal is born white, she can deal with it then.
> 
> Really, and I'm not being snarky, posters are not required to answer every question asked. *She has been alerted, we don't know that she wasn't already aware, and after that, it's not our business.*
> 
> IMO


 
WOW!!! 

I would like to like that about 10 times!!!!


----------



## Druydess

ThursdayNext said:


> I just wish that they'd stay on topic if they're going to start slinging stones. This is a thread about whether there is an issue about a small mare carrying the foal of a large stallion. People with hot buttons about breeding should not be using this thread to soapbox about that.
> 
> 
> 
> You can go crazy trying to figure out how to word stuff to avoid picking up strident and irrelevant criticism - probably best not to waste too much time, and just to ignore responses that go off the deep end. Your question was reasonable - the stream of off-topic stuff was not your fault. Especially since your post is flagged with the "new poster" mark that instructs forum members to refrain from the kind of stuff we've seen in this thread.
> 
> Can't wait to see pictures of the baby! I hope that it's an easy foaling for your mare and for you!!


Very true! Welcome to the forum Heather. There are some great, supportive people here. Best wishes for an easy foaling.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I was not aware of the lethal white, had heard of it but since I am not a "breeder" I have not tested anyone for it. I don't think it would do me any good at this point and to be honest with you at this point that's the least of my worries. I want above all my mare to be okay..baby also...but if any problems arise when its born, I will obviously do what is best for both of them. I can spend my money on other things for her at this point than a test that I cannot change the outcome of now. 
I appreciate everyones input, I really do.


----------



## redpony

Well put Heather, I hope the very best for you, your mare and foal.

BTW-Don't forget the pics, lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ladytaurean515

HeatherGavitt said:


> I was not aware of the lethal white, had heard of it but since I am not a "breeder" I have not tested anyone for it. I don't think it would do me any good at this point and to be honest with you at this point that's the least of my worries. I want above all my mare to be okay..baby also...but if any problems arise when its born, I will obviously do what is best for both of them. I can spend my money on other things for her at this point than a test that I cannot change the outcome of now.
> I appreciate everyones input, I really do.


 Even though the baby is on its way..and he is now gelded so it wont matter if he carries frame...but for future knowledge and help you should have that mare checked and her foals if you intend to ever breed her again or any of her foals. The stud I got (now gelding) from the neighbor I went ahead and had tested and sure enough he is nO which means carrier. My mares are nn..so now I know the foals have a 50/50 chance of being nn or nO which is a carrier...So they will be tested as well so I'll know what I have. I don't intend to breed them, but who knows if one comes out nice enough to show and earn titles and earns to breed then I want to know the basic knowledge of what I have. Good luck with the foaling and I am waiting to see pics of the little one!


----------



## Jake and Dai

HeatherGavitt said:


> I was not aware of the lethal white, had heard of it but since I am not a "breeder" I have not tested anyone for it. I don't think it would do me any good at this point and to be honest with you at this point that's the least of my worries. I want above all my mare to be okay..baby also...but if any problems arise when its born, I will obviously do what is best for both of them. I can spend my money on other things for her at this point than a test that I cannot change the outcome of now.
> I appreciate everyones input, I really do.


I hope all goes well with your mare Heather and she delivers a healthy foal.

I did just want to mention one thing that you might not have thought of in terms of testing the sire and dam for frame. Depending on the results, if both are positive, you might then let the vet know so that he/she can be prepared to come quickly to euthanize the foal if it turns out born with LWO. Just to avoid suffering.

I do mean this with all respect and caring. I don't want to give you any negative vibes or make you more concerned that you need to be. It was just something I thought of when reading this.

Again, the best of luck to you and your girl and as others have said, we demand pictures of your baby when he/she arrives!


----------



## ladytaurean515

Jake and Dai said:


> I hope all goes well with your mare Heather and she delivers a healthy foal.
> 
> I did just want to mention one thing that you might not have thought of in terms of testing the sire and dam for frame. Depending on the results, if both are positive, you might then let the vet know so that he/she can be prepared to come quickly to euthanize the foal if it turns out born with LWO. Just to avoid suffering.
> 
> I do mean this with all respect and caring. I don't want to give you any negative vibes or make you more concerned that you need to be. It was just something I thought of when reading this.
> 
> Again, the best of luck to you and your girl and as others have said, we demand pictures of your baby when he/she arrives!


The thing is..a O/O foal will be all white...Neither of the parents bred together will produce a white or even palomino so if a foal is born white...the odds that it is a lethal is pretty much 100%


----------



## Clayton Taffy

Where can I look up frame, never heard of it before?
When I google Equine frame all I get is photo frames.


----------



## texasgal

Taffy .. It's the gene for LWO .. so you might try frame gene overo or lethal whit overo frame ... or something like that.


----------



## NdAppy

Lethal White Overo - Horse Coat Color



> Lethal White Overo
> Horse breeding programs specializing in overo have particular challenges compared with programs for other white patterns such as tobiano. Not only is there the possibility of producing a solid dark foal without the overo pattern but there is also the risk of producing an all-white foal that dies of complications from intestinal tract abnormalities (ileocolonic aganglionosis). As far as we are aware, overo horses themselves have no specific health risks. While breeding evidence shows that some overos are heterozygous for a gene that is lethal in the homozygous condition, it has not been easy to identify which horses have the overo gene that is associated with the lethal white foal syndrome. Occasionally even solid-colored horses without obvious body spotting patterns have been reported to produce lethal white foals. Clearly the spotting pattern classified as overo is phenotypically and genetically heterogeneous.
> Breeders can test horses for this mutation to avoid producing lethal white foals and to identify new pedigree sources of the overo gene that may be useful in their breeding programs. The gene appears to be associated with horses often characterized as "frame-overos" in Paints and Thoroughbreds, but is also present in some tobiano/overos, some solid-colored (breeding stock Paint) offspring from overo matings, some tobianos and Quarter Horses without obvious evidence of the overo pattern. The gene has also been identified in an overo Miniature Horse.
> Using the letter "O" to symbolize the DNA sequence of the lethal white (LW) overo gene and "N" for the sequence of the non-overo, then the lethal white foals can be symbolized as OO, their overo parents as NO and non-overos as NN.
> Breeding predictions between LW overos (NO x NO):
> 
> ..............N....................... O
> N..25% NN solid.....25% NO overo
> O..25% NO overo....25% OO lethal
> 
> Breeding predictions between LW overo and solid (NO x NN): No possibility of lethal white foals.
> 
> ..............N....................... O
> N..50% NN solid 50% NO overo
> 
> We know of no other mutations that are associated with lethal white overo horses. However, owners requesting the diagnostic test should understand that there is the rare possibility that two NN horses could have a lethal white foal due if both the sire and dam carry a mutation at a site other than the one detected by this test.


----------



## Clayton Taffy

Thanks ndappy and TG.

:lol:


----------



## candandy49

Heather, firstly I am glad you can shrug off the critical remarks that have come your way in this thread. Accidental breedings are not all that uncommon even in the best of horse management facilities. I personally know of a solid Paint breeding stock mare whose owner's did not know she was even in foal until she had her baby. The only exposure to the mare by a stallion was a Spotted Saddlehorse and it was totally accidental, for a fact. 

I am at a loss as to why or where on this green earth did the subject of frame and lethal white come from on this thread? Your Shetland is a Tobiano paint and the prospective sire is a solid QH. It is true Lethal White does exist, but only in most cases of Overo x Overo breedings. 

When I had my QH mare bred to a 16hh TB stallion as an 11 year old maiden at foaling she needed help with pulling at contractions to get the foal's shoulders over her pelvic bone. 

Best of Wishes with your new baby.


----------



## Chiilaa

candandy49 said:


> I am at a loss as to why or where on this green earth did the subject of frame and lethal white come from on this thread? Your Shetland is a Tobiano paint and the prospective sire is a solid QH. It is true Lethal White does exist, but only in most cases of Overo x Overo breedings.


Frame can "hide" - there have been several cases of horses without a single white hair that have frame. As well as the solid being possible, the tobiano clearly is carrying other white patterns. That is why frame came up. Because it's possible.


----------



## NdAppy

Candy both those breeds carry FRAME which is the gene that causes lethal white foals. Overo is a term that covers several different genes and should not be used to describe a frame or OLWS carrier. 

Frame is a *master* at hiding within other patterns or on solid horses. It does not have to be visible for a horse to be a frame carrier. 

*ANY* horse from any of the breeds that are known to carry frame/OLWS should be tested before any breeding takes place due the fact you can not always tell by looking at a horse if they are frame/OLWS carriers or not, and thus you can avoid lethal foals.


----------



## Saddlebag

Heather, I realize the vet's response to possible problems is a bit discouraging, but it's one every vet will tell you. One can't know until foaling time for any mare. I worked on a ranch that raised the small mountain welsh. Periodically the 15.2 arab stallion was bred to a few of these mares which often were under 12hh. None of them had any problems and ran with a herd of 80 in hilly country.


----------



## Tejas

Hows your girl? Any pix yet?!?!


----------



## spurstop

I'm absolutely horrified by this thread.

Heather, geld the colt. It's most likely he's the sire. He should have been gelded a long time ago, and to turn a yearling colt out with a mare and expect her to not end up pregnant is naive.


----------



## ThursdayNext

If you're horrified by this thread, go somewhere else. Don't pick on the newbie.


----------



## spurstop

So you are in support of poor horse management?


----------



## Clayton Taffy

No I think some of us are in favor of not beating a dead horse, or a prego one!


----------



## ThursdayNext

No. I'm in support of staying on topic, which in this case is the question of whether a small horse can safely carry the foal of a large stallion AND I am in support of the warning that is posted at the very top of this thread that advises us that the OP has not made many posts before and that content of the post needs to be interpreted in light of that recent advent onto our scene. This is NOT a thread about mare and stallion management. It is NOT a thread about potentially lethal paint genes. It is NOT a thread about the wisdom or lack thereof in the OPs maintaining uncut stallions to breed under controlled circumstances. If you want to soapbox about those things, start your own thread. You'll probably find a very welcoming audience on any or all of those topics. But it is NOT appropriate to hijack this thread.


----------



## spurstop

Sunshine and rainbows. Got it.


----------



## DraftXDressage

candandy49 said:


> Accidental breedings are not all that uncommon even in the best of horse management facilities.


I really don't believe this is true, despite what the statistics on this particular forum might lead a person to believe.


----------



## Tejas

Poor fencing and lack of common sense is more common than you'd think...especially in Texas. "The stud jumped the fence" happens all too often where I am from. A lot of people breed horses with no papers. A lot of people keep their males in tact for beauty alone or some other silly reason. Back yard breeding is sad, and there are too many registered homeless horses on this planet. So many stallions should be gelded, and so many cats/dogs spay/neutered. The overpopulation of the animals is ridiculous. People should be more careful, but then again they should be a lot of things.

OP.. I hope you geld your boy soon! I'm sure you've learned from it all by losing sleep at night and being bashed in public now. =\ Now..where are these pictures?


----------



## cmarie

DraftXDressage said:


> I really don't believe this is true, despite what the statistics on this particular forum might lead a person to believe.


It does happen I had a mare in a very reputable training facility she came home bred to a Kruger Mustang. She was there for 4 months, 9 months later she foaled, she was a maiden mare had no signs of being pregnant, she carried high, 3 weeks before she foaled I saw her rolling and noticed she was bagging up, she delivered a pretty little bay filly. 

The story I was told by the trainer after the foal was born is that the trainers 10 yr old daughter was moving the stud into a round pen and there were mares mine included tied to the hitching post and the stud broke way from her and bred 2 of the mares, before anyone could get control of him. I wasn't very happy about it, the child could have been hurt or killed, and my mare was only 3 at the time.


----------



## Lakotababii

Okay so after reading this entire thread, I would like to comment on the situation.

It may not be the best, as the son of the mare may very well have bred her.

BUT for those of you going after the OP, what would you like her to do? She has clearly stated that she realized her mistake, is going to geld all of her colts/stallions, and it was an ACCIDENT. 

Sheesh people what do you want her to do? Send an apology note addressed to you personally? Stuff happens, she is working to correct it, is being as responsible as she can be, and realizes that she needs to geld the colt. That's it. DONE! So stop beating it over the head. She even agreed that if it is a colt, this time she is going to geld him right away. What more can she do to say she learned her lesson?

I personally am excited to see pics. I think this foal is going to be very cute, and well taken care of.


----------



## GoAppendix

It wasn't an accident. It was a situation entirely preventable with some common sense and basic understand of horse management. 

And I am laughing at the idea of kruger mustang stallion and reputable training facility going together. Especially when children are apparently allowed to handle the stallions. Again, this isn't an accident. It is poor horse management, and frankly, just bad business that the owners were not informed immediately after the event.


----------



## Lakotababii

GoAppendix said:


> It wasn't an accident. It was a situation entirely preventable with some common sense and basic understand of horse management.



Accidents ARE preventable in some cases, but stuff happens, like I said. We can complain all we want, but we can't change that its over, she's bred. Done. All we can do is inform the OP what she did wrong, and how to correct it. Check, once again we did that, and she already knows what went wrong. She IS working to correct the issues, she already said that. My point being, we can't change what already happened. She said she wont let it happen again, so now we need to LET IT GO.


----------



## GoAppendix

Did I say it was going to magically change things? The endless insistence that this is an accident takes the responsibly off people making these poor choices. I am not really into that.


----------



## Lakotababii

Just because something is an accident doesn't mean there is no responsible party. Think automobile accidents, someone is almost always responsible, and yet it is still an accident. OP knows what happened, she owns it. I just don't understand what griping at her is going to do, except make her feel bad.


----------



## texasgal

Semantics .. and arguing over the use of a word for the sake of arguing.. imo.

*Accident*, by defintion is:

an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with *lack of intention*. It usually implies a generally negative outcome which *may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.*

Soooooooooo .. even by definition and inmplication, the word applies.

Fact is, we can't change it and there is absolutely no reason to continue with the tsk tsking except maybe for our own self inflation and satisfaction.

IMO


----------



## New_image

I'm going to assume that the folks upset about the "accidental" breeding aren't directly upset at the OP but at the fact that... how many times do we see the "oops my horse is pregnant" threads? So for others who may be lurking it isn't a bad tangent to beat because clearly, there are many who need to read it. 

*I really don't believe this is true, despite what the statistics on this particular forum might lead a person to believe. *

I agree. I've had several stallions and never a accidental breeding. We are far from a "best management facility" I might ad. (In the word picture I see in my head) I mean no fancy barns, no hired help. I think there are many ways to avoid "accidental" breedings, pick ANY one way and you wont have an issue.

None of that is directed right toward the OP, as clearly if she is having her boys gelded she is doing the right thing now. She is taking care of the mare, its done. 

I would bet on the fact that the colt is the sire. Unless you are aware of someone turning the mare out with the Quarter Horse? Maybe I missed that but he didn't jump in with her and then back into his own fence


----------



## Jumperforjoy

I tried to sit back and wait for a hopefully healthy baby and be here for the OP if she needs help/advice but I find it frustrating the amount of overkill from posters....... 

I understand that people need to get their opinions out about accidental breedings but why do they feel the need to hijack this thread and bombard the OP with negative after negative again and again, I agree that maybe someone needs to start their own thread about accidental breeding and everyone can "fight" it out there. 

It seems that almost everyone agrees that the deed was done and there is nothing can can be changed and from the information given the OP is doing the right thing now so why do people keeping repeating the same thing over and over.

I do agree that accidental breedings do not just happen unless something is missed but when you rely on other people to care for your animals well you are away (as stated by OP) you don't always know until its to late if the person is going to take the responisility to heart, I have been working in barns since I was very young and I have been blown away by the stupidity/laziness from people who were supposed to be well educated horse people and usually they are not caught/fired until they do something inexcusable (like letting a stud out with mares) these are the same people who if made a mistake out of your sight would not tell you and hope it "goes away" 

Not sure what it's like else where but it is really hard to find good reliable help these days around here and some people are great talkers but horrible workers.

Just my two cents :???: we have probably scared this OP away already so who knows we might be all just talking to ourselves :wink:


----------



## Misty'sGirl

cmarie said:


> It does happen I had a mare in a *very reputable training facility* she came home bred to a Kruger Mustang. She was there for 4 months, 9 months later she foaled, she was a maiden mare had no signs of being pregnant, she carried high, 3 weeks before she foaled I saw her rolling and noticed she was bagging up, she delivered a pretty little bay filly.
> 
> The story I was told by the trainer *after the foal was born* is that the trainers 10 yr old daughter was moving the stud into a round pen and there were mares mine included tied to the hitching post and the stud broke way from her and bred 2 of the mares, before anyone could get control of him. I wasn't very happy about it, the child could have been hurt or killed, and my mare was only 3 at the time.


With all due respect, if they were halfway decent they would've immediately contacted you and told you what happened and warned there was a possibility of pregnancy. And what kinda reputable person lets a _child_ lead a stud past a line of mares? That's just asking for trouble. 
No offence to you, but they don't sound 'reputable' to me.


----------



## trailhorserider

ladytaurean515 said:


> The thing is..a O/O foal will be all white...Neither of the parents bred together will produce a white or even palomino so if a foal is born white...the odds that it is a lethal is pretty much 100%


I wouldn't ever jump to that assumption. Extreme sabino can produce white foals that are normal and healthy. It would be a shame to euthanize a healthy foal so I would never assume ALL white foals are lethal. Would I fear the worst, yes. But I would want to make sure I wasn't dealing with another form of white foal.


----------



## trailhorserider

Taffy Clayton said:


> No I think some of us are in favor of not beating a dead horse, or a prego one!


No! Please don't beat the pasta sauce! :lol:


----------



## Golden Horse

<--- Takes a sip of her margarita and thinks out loud...

I find it funny that it's OK for those who want to snipe at the snipers think it is OK to harp on

Think about it people, do we need so many people saying NOT to have a go at the op.

Takes another sip, shakes head and tries to explain what she means, gives up and goes to enjoy the drink


----------



## cmarie

Misty'sGirl said:


> With all due respect, if they were halfway decent they would've immediately contacted you and told you what happened and warned there was a possibility of pregnancy. And what kinda reputable person lets a _child_ lead a stud past a line of mares? That's just asking for trouble.
> No offence to you, but they don't sound 'reputable' to me.


I totally agree with you, but things do happen even at so called reputable facilities, I haven't used that trainer again. If I had been told about the incident I would have luted the mare.


----------



## ladytaurean515

trailhorserider said:


> I wouldn't ever jump to that assumption. Extreme sabino can produce white foals that are normal and healthy. It would be a shame to euthanize a healthy foal so I would never assume ALL white foals are lethal. Would I fear the worst, yes. But I would want to make sure I wasn't dealing with another form of white foal.


If that mare though is tested and does not carry sabino then is it still possbile to have it?


----------



## NdAppy

Yes as the test for Sabino is only one test. There are thought to be other forms of Sabino just as there are thought to be other forms of splash..


----------



## Bobthebuilder

If I'm not mistaken there can be white horses that are not lethal- maximal sabinos, very few spot appaloosas and apparently there is a white gene- which is not very understood today, but it appears to be dominant. 
However, neither parent is sabino, and I don't know much about how sabino is passed on, but to me it would make sense that two maximal sabinos would have to be bred to produce a foal so maximal it is in effect white. The same thing would apply to appy and dominant white argument. 
I'm nowhere close to an expert though, so I could just be blabbering on about something that doesn't make sense at all :lol:. Just felt the need to chip in because I'm super interested in horse genetics. 
Again, good luck- hope all goes well 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BlueSpark

OK, on topic. OP, if you are still there, your mare will probably be fine carrying her sons foal. Hopefully the fact that it was sired by its sibling won't effect its mental or physical health too badly. I'm glad it sounds like you are gelding the colt/stallions on the property, it sounds like you will make the best of the situation and learn from it.


I had to comment on this. 


> _It does happen I had a mare in a *very reputable training facility* she came home bred to a Kruger Mustang. She was there for 4 months, 9 months later she foaled, she was a maiden mare had no signs of being pregnant, she carried high, 3 weeks before she foaled I saw her rolling and noticed she was bagging up, she delivered a pretty little bay filly.
> 
> The story I was told by the trainer *after the foal was born* is that the trainers 10 yr old daughter was moving the stud into a round pen and there were mares mine included tied to the hitching post and the stud broke way from her and bred 2 of the mares, before anyone could get control of him. I wasn't very happy about it, the child could have been hurt or killed, and my mare was only 3 at the time._


If this was a reputable trainer, what would a disreputable one look like? A trainer that lets a 10 year old move a stud? While a row of clients mares are tied to a hitching rail? He bred TWO mares before anyone could stop him? Doesnt tell her client that her 3 year old could be pregnant? My goodness.


----------



## Chiilaa

BlueSpark said:


> OK, on topic. OP, if you are still there, your mare will probably be fine carrying her sons foal. Hopefully the fact that it was sired by its sibling won't effect its mental or physical health too badly. I'm glad it sounds like you are gelding the colt/stallions on the property, it sounds like you will make the best of the situation and learn from it.


Breeding mother to son does not cause any ill effects to a foal's "mental or physical" health.


----------



## Lovemywalker

*mistakes happen*

I think that we all need to focus on helping someone by giving the advice that they have asked for and leaving out the criticism. If she posted for advice, she must be a caring horseowner and mistakes happen. It happened and she could use support and advise, not being told she is irresponsible. I know I would be heartbroken if people spoke to me like some of the posts I have read...lets all try to get along. We all have a common interest and love of horses!!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Sugar*

Still no baby, vet came out yesterday says she still looks fine and not to worry. Still just a waiting game. She is getting bigger but she is still not as big as when she was bred "purposely" to a mini stud 2 years ago. So maybe she just got milk early...hard to say when my under managed stud got to her when I did not know...lol..so I don't have a cover date. I will keep you posted! Thanks for the support(you know who you are)!


----------



## Kawonu

HeatherGavitt said:


> Still no baby, vet came out yesterday says she still looks fine and not to worry. Still just a waiting game. She is getting bigger but she is still not as big as when she was bred "purposely" to a mini stud 2 years ago. So maybe she just got milk early...hard to say when my under managed stud got to her when I did not know...lol..so I don't have a cover date. I will keep you posted! Thanks for the support(you know who you are)!


Sucks your little gal got bred by mishap. It happens, even when stallions are practically put in boxes away from mares - dirty lil' boys are clever. But anyhow - I do want to see you posting pictures when it drops.


----------



## sommsama09

How is everything going? :smile:


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Stoddard said:


> Sucks your little gal got bred by mishap. It happens, even when stallions are practically put in boxes away from mares - dirty lil' boys are clever. But anyhow - I do want to see you posting pictures when it drops.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

they are clever for sure. still no baby yet...just a still normal size pregnant belly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tayz

cant wait to see pics of the baby. subbing!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

we are good. I now have two awaiting babies. i bought back my black and white paint that i sold in Feb. She is gigantic...and makes little Sugar not even look anywhere near due. i will post a picture of them both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*the girls*


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

If it were a colt I'd soooo be tempted to call it Frankenstein's Monster (Frank for short)! Good luck with the birth, sounds like you're doing the best you can for her in this difficult situation 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FeatheredFeet

Two pretty girls and both very round too. Who is your big tobi mare in foal to? Hopefully she and the stud, have also been tested for frame. Your daughter's new cute pony, is also very likely frame. Looks like you have nice, lush pasture. Out here in California, we envy those with pasture. The girls both look in good condition to foal.

I'm sure all your concerns have been addressed here. One thing though, looking at the pics. I would be concerned about the mares and definitely the babies, in that barbed wire fencing, with uncapped T posts. I've seen too many horrible results, from horses kept in such fencing.

Don't forget to post pics, as soon as your mares foal.

Lizzie


----------



## HeatherGavitt

*Magic's baby is here!*

One baby is here...still waiting on sugars baby! But same father to both mares...She is perfect and healthy. Mom and baby are doing wonderful!


----------



## texasgal

Oh Heather! I'm glad she's here and all is well.


----------



## cmarie

What a cute little one congrats.


----------



## Chevaux

Thanks for pics..I await more..


----------



## 2horses

What a sweet foal!


----------



## ThursdayNext

She is DARLING!!!

I don't know much about how foal coats evolve...if they are going to wind up pinto, will they be pinto at birth, or does that happen later, like being grey? Is this one going to be pinto, or chestnut?


----------



## Cacowgirl

Darling little foal-so sleepy! Thanks for the update.


----------



## NdAppy

White patterns are there from birth.


----------



## barrelbeginner

I want!


----------



## HorseLovinLady

What a cute filly congrats!!


----------



## nikelodeon79

Cute lil' filly!!!

How is it that both mares were bred to the same stud? I'm confused...


----------



## texasgal

^^ Did you read the thread? It's been hashed and re-hashed.


----------



## nikelodeon79

texasgal said:


> ^^ Did you read the thread? It's been hashed and re-hashed.


I did.... but this second mare was only introduced to this thread very recently and she said she "bought her back" from somewhere... I'm just confused as to how she got in foal by the same stud if she was living somewhere else.

It's entirely possible I missed something... I did just read this thread in one sitting.

ETA: I see that the larger mare was sold in February so was already in foal at the time... so I guess she was bred while she was still there (accidentally?).


----------



## texasgal

I supposed it doesn't really matter at this point, huh? Seriously, why stir this all up again? Can't we just be happy that the baby is here and healthy?


----------



## nikelodeon79

texasgal said:


> I supposed it doesn't really matter at this point, huh? Seriously, why stir this all up again? Can't we just be happy that the baby is here and healthy?


Sure....

One more horse to add to the thousands of BYB (or "oops" bred) foals out there.

Oh... and another on the way.

I guess I was of your opinion a few pages ago about people bullying the OP for this accidental breeding. Things happen, after all. But TWO horses? IDK. My BS meter is activating.


----------



## barrelbeginner

OR maybe!!! THIS MARE WAS BRED ON PURPOSE I think the OP is doing a wonderful job.. Like she said.. IT WASNT her fault? right? someone else put the qh stud in with her mare.. not her? So why be bashing on her? I think your doing a great job NOW and I bet you ALWAYS were trying hard.. KEEP it up.. I cant wait!!!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

nikelodeon79 said:


> Sure....
> 
> One more horse to add to the thousands of BYB (or "oops" bred) foals out there.
> 
> Oh... and another on the way.
> 
> I guess I was of your opinion a few pages ago about people bullying the OP for this accidental breeding. Things happen, after all. But TWO horses? IDK. My BS meter is activating.



okay now that you have your panties all in a bunch. she was bred by me..not by accident. my stallion is papered and so is she. I sold her in Feb because palpations came back that she was not pregnant. then 5 months later the people i sold her to asked who she was prego(spaghetti sauce) by and being that he was already gelded(trying to avoid a pony accident again) i wanted his only papered baby. i really dont care about any of your drama starting opinions at this point. i have done everything in ny power for this to never happen again! I am keeping everyone i have including the over bred and underwanted mare and foal. thanks to all of you for tge positive notes...i am just happy she is healthy and quite pretty in ny opinion!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HorseLovinLady

How's the shetland mare doing Heather?


----------



## Nuala

Beautiful little filly!!!

Glad to see everything is good for her. although please ask your vet to check her legs as they look bowed in quite a bit. Sometimes they will straighten on their own however if you wait to long it is much more difficult a treatment then shoes and wraps.

Hope to see some picture of the other foal soon!!!


----------



## nikelodeon79

HeatherGavitt said:


> okay now that you have your panties all in a bunch. she was bred by me..not by accident. my stallion is papered and so is she. I sold her in Feb because palpations came back that she was not pregnant. then 5 months later the people i sold her to asked who she was prego(spaghetti sauce) by and being that he was already gelded(trying to avoid a pony accident again) i wanted his only papered baby. i really dont care about any of your drama starting opinions at this point. i have done everything in ny power for this to never happen again! I am keeping everyone i have including the over bred and underwanted mare and foal. thanks to all of you for tge positive notes...i am just happy she is healthy and quite pretty in ny opinion!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just one response and I promise I'll leave you alone. :wink:

Obviously all of this is a moot point because the deed's done, one filly is already born (I am truly glad she and mom are okay and she is super cute). 

In MY opinion (and obviously others' opinions different) the fact that you bred them on purpose is worse. Neither is breeding quality, IMO (though they are nice horses) and being "papered" means nothing. I seem to recall you stating earlier that you WEREN'T planning on using the stud (now gelding) for breeding, but obviously that wasn't completely true because you already had. 

Regardless, I wish you luck with the next baby. I'm glad you decided to geld the stud.


----------



## cowgirl4753

So how's the pony doing? Any news yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

cowgirl4753 said:


> So how's the pony doing? Any news yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sugar is good...still in the oven. vet says just a waiting game. he also looked at the baby yesterday and said he does not think we should do anything with her legs at this point..said it is pretty common and most should resolve in a month. if it doesnt we will go from that point. at this point she is healthy and happy and so am I.
My intentions were not to keep him as a "breeding" stallion..but i wanted a baby off of him because he is one of the sweetest boys i have ever had. and in my opinion...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and a horse that may be worth something to you may not be to me. i intend on keeping her and the baby and the father so what does it matter what they look like to you? Tired of argueing my point on the matter honestly. i love my horses and take very good care of everyone. 
This was not directed at the person i replyed to but i started off answering you and went on rambling. thanks and i will post a few more pics and links to some videos of her also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cowgirl4753

HeatherGavitt said:


> Sugar is good...still in the oven. vet says just a waiting game. he also looked at the baby yesterday and said he does not think we should do anything with her legs at this point..said it is pretty common and most should resolve in a month. if it doesnt we will go from that point. at this point she is healthy and happy and so am I.
> This was not directed at the person i replyed to but i started off answering you and went on rambling. thanks and i will post a few more pics and links to some videos of her also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand! LOL some people kinda got off topic. Glad everyone's doing well and everyday I think of sugar and wonder how she's doing! So my thoughts are with you!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

cowgirl4753 said:


> So how's the pony doing? Any news yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is good...still baking that baby. vet says everything looks good...just a waiting game. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFtjL88szZo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3lCnVaLEGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cowgirl4753

Awww too precious!!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

ThursdayNext said:


> She is DARLING!!!
> 
> I don't know much about how foal coats evolve...if they are going to wind up pinto, will they be pinto at birth, or does that happen later, like being grey? Is this one going to be pinto, or chestnut?


Paints and Pintos will be born the color they will be...she is looking like a chestnut or sorrel...but she could change color as she gets older...I will keep pictures as she ages and we will see what she does. My guess is a darker sorrel or sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail.


----------



## ThursdayNext

Love the video! It always cracks me up, looking at pictures of these very young ones lying on the ground...their legs look like stilts!


----------



## HeatherGavitt

ThursdayNext said:


> Love the video! It always cracks me up, looking at pictures of these very young ones lying on the ground...their legs look like stilts!


She looks like a cross between a deer and a giraffe with those legs...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BackwoodsBaby

i had a 13.3hh pony, her dam was a 12hh pony and her sire 15.3hh horse, the dam never had any problems foaling her at all but she grew like crazy though, so you might end up with a pretty 3 quarter hand pony. i wish you luck and would love to see pics when you mare has her


----------



## ilovepie32

Ahh I came in on this post late. BUT, I had this happen to me once. My situation was a little worse. I had a 9 hand Shetland. She was bred to a 16 hand paint stud when we bought her. My step aunt and step uncle were in the process of moving their paint herd and the pony(which was their granddaughter's), and from being in the same corral as the stud, she got bred. We never knew she was pregnant. She never got noticeably big(however she was very overweight then), and she dropped the foal with no issues. What a surprise!!  that foal was my baby for the next 5 years until I had to sell her. Old memories  anyway, enjoy your pony/horse foal no matter what your intentions were to begin with. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

I have a question about the new baby...please don't bash and ridicule me I am asking because I care. 
She seems a little over in the knees, not bad but a little. Is this normal? My farrier says to give her till she a month or two to straighten up. He said it is fairly common and not usually an issue. I will try to post a video or pics that you can see her legs better in.


----------



## texasgal

Don't worry about it .. she's still straightening out .... imo


----------



## riccil0ve

Subbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt




----------



## HeatherGavitt

what does it mean when someone posts "subbing"

And I hope she does straighten up..seems better after she is in for the night and as she gets tired and runs alot it gets more noticeable.


----------



## Chevaux

Thanks for the updates. 'Subbing' means subscribing to the thread to keep abreast of what's happening - the Horse Forum sends the subscribers notifications when there is more activity on the thread.

Her legs don't look too bad -- I'm sure they'll straighten with use, more growth and muscle development.


----------



## barrelbeginner

I cant wait to see the other baby!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ThursdayNext

What a cutie! That's so funny, her neck not being long enough to reach the ground with those long stilt legs... at what point do foals start to graze? Love that flappy little tail, too.


----------



## Nuala

Ok thats just adorable. 

We have a colt out on the ranch I had been keeping me horses at that started to try his hand at grazing when he was only about a month old but they will still mostly rely on milk until about 6 months. 

Glad to hear that the vet checked her. In the video her legs look really bad. Knee looks to far forward and it but your vet is right, and as I said, the do usually straighten on their own it is just that I have seen to many not straighten and then it is to late to do anything otherwise I would not have brought it up. This is probably a sore subject because my gelding Sonny is one of those cases where they let it go to long or just didnt care to get his leg corrected.

Hope to see the other foal soon. Good luck.


----------



## bjb

has the shetland had her foal yet? curious to see it


----------



## Louloubabs

Subbing 

Can't wait to see pics of the next foal 

Hope everything goes well for you and your mare.

XxX


----------



## HeatherGavitt

Louloubabs said:


> Subbing
> 
> Can't wait to see pics of the next foal
> 
> Hope everything goes well for you and your mare.
> 
> 
> XxX


I will post a short video and link of new baby and sugar...my pony...wish she would have it so i know everything is okay. thanks for checkin on her. And the other peoples pony had hers yesterday..ill post a video of him too...he actually looks like it could be Honeys brother...but they have diff fathers...but non the less cute as a button.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

ethels baby boy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGPYJAKww3o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGPYJAKww3o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HeatherGavitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsY22rSAeuU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThursdayNext

Is that the Shetland?!? (the first video of the two?)


----------



## AbsitVita

Your mare may or may not have any serious complications....that is why God created genetics. It all depends on which is dominant. It's not only and not always the stallion who passes on his genes, the mare has an involuntary say in it as well. It is true that it can be dangerous for the mare, the foal or both there are equal cases either way. I hope all goes well with your pony.


----------



## HeatherGavitt

my shetland is the little red and white paint
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## barrelbeginner

has she foaled yet???


----------



## HeatherGavitt

barrelbeginner said:


> has she foaled yet???


No not yet...she is the last one to have hers and i wanted her to be the first. but mother nature knows best...soon as she has it pics will be up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FeatheredFeet

I'm confused. Why was the guy pulling on the mare's foal so much? Was she having major foaling problems? 

Lizzie


----------



## HeatherGavitt

FeatheredFeet said:


> I'm confused. Why was the guy pulling on the mare's foal so much? Was she having major foaling problems?
> 
> Lizzie


I wasnt there when she had him...but she had been pushing for almost thirty minutes and baby was not moving. vet said to intervene before Ethel was too tired to help push. which as u can tell she stopped helping at the end. she was exhausted. This was her first baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spirit Lifter

Subbing!!


----------



## FeatheredFeet

I understand. Thanks.

Lizzie


----------



## dieselcowgirl99

Subbing...


----------



## gamer0307

Good luck with your baby! I moved into a place and stud broke fence and got my 20yrs old maid pony she just bagged up and is about to pop. 
Awaiting pictures


----------



## gamer0307

gamer0307 said:


> Good luck with your baby! I moved into a place and stud broke fence and got my 20yrs old maid pony she just bagged up and is about to pop.
> Awaiting pictures


Hello, so wanted to let you know my pony mare is 12 hh and was bred by a 14.2hh paint stud and she had a beautiful colt at 11 pm. This was accident and I felt so bad for my little mare. But she did get. Hope all gos well for you and your mare.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

An accident?



> Moderator Note: It has been stated several times it was an accident


----------



## ThursdayNext

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> An accident?


Go read the whole thread. You will see.


----------



## Saddlebag

I moved my mare to another facility, mainly pasture with feed and shelter. A friend moved her mare as well. After a few months we learned the fellow had turned a long yearling in with the girls, a stallion. He was not of a quality that we wanted. The following weekend we went for a trail ride to a trailer waiting about a mile down the road. The guy called me at work threatening this and that, no notice. I told him running a stallion in with our mares null and voided any agreement. Turned out he hadn't bred the mares but sometimes that's how these things happen. I'd have take the guy into court for "child support".


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

ThursdayNext said:


> Go read the whole thread. You will see.


 
Ha I did and um I guess we're not allowed to be brutally honest with these types. My post was hijacked and all but that sentance was removed.


----------



## myhorsesonador

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Ha I did and um I guess we're not allowed to be brutally honest with these types. My post was hijacked and all but that sentance was removed.


no it was brutally rude, and removed by a mod, not hijacked.

You can give your oppinion with out being rude, it really isn't that hard.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

HeatherGavitt said:


> I was not aware of the lethal white, had heard of it but since I am not a "breeder" I have not tested anyone for it. I don't think it would do me any good at this point and to be honest with you at this point that's the least of my worries. I want above all my mare to be okay..baby also...but if any problems arise when its born, I will obviously do what is best for both of them. I can spend my money on other things for her at this point than a test that I cannot change the outcome of now.
> I appreciate everyones input, I really do.


 
If you have intact stallions and mares you infact are classified as a breeder that said when there is any chance on them breeding the RESPONSIBLE thing to do is to have them tested for genetic disorders there are a whole lot of other genetic disorders being thrown into the mix esp from the qh and anyone who cant afford the testing has NO BUISNESS owning horses because at that minimal cost being to much how do you adequatly care for them?


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

myhorsesonador said:


> no it was brutally rude, and removed by a mod, not hijacked.
> 
> You can give your oppinion with out being rude, it really isn't that hard.


 
Honesty and rude go hand in hand when it isnt the reply wanted by the party asking for advice and an opinion


----------



## barrelbeginner

^^ she said she WASNT a breeder.. so why would she of had her colt tested...? not sure if you are saying this directly to her.. or not..


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

barrelbeginner said:


> ^^ she said she WASNT a breeder.. so why would she of had her colt tested...? not sure if you are saying this directly to her.. or not..


 
I would say having horses who bred on my farm makes me a breeder whether it was planned or not.


----------



## myhorsesonador

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Honesty and rude go hand in hand when it isnt the reply wanted by the party asking for advice and an opinion


No they don't.

Why are you comming into an thread that has moved way past what you are bringing up, is it just to cause trouble? Every thing you have brought up has already been posted 20 pages ago.


----------



## barrelbeginner

I disagree.. a breeder breeds horses FOR A PROFIT IMO... idt she bred her horses for a profit to sell..


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

myhorsesonador said:


> No they don't.
> 
> Why are you comming into an thread that has moved way past what you are bringing up, is it just to cause trouble? Every thing you have brought up has already been posted 20 pages ago.


Because I can and yes they do.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

barrelbeginner said:


> I disagree.. a breeder breeds horses FOR A PROFIT IMO... idt she bred her horses for a profit to sell..


 
LOL now we all know with the horse market today that this comment breeding for profit couldnt be further from the truth I just rescued a half starved foal with a halter ingrown into her face from a breeder who wasnt breeding for profit I'm just sick of cleaning up after others accidental breedings


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

Then stop simple as that. You are being rude right now amd all of this has been covered so leavr it be you can not stop it now .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## myhorsesonador

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Because I can and yes they do.


 
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Honesty and being rude never ever go hand in hand! How would any one get any where in life?


----------



## Allison Finch

I think this thread has spun its last circle. When all that is left to say is an effort to inflame...there is nothing left.

This thread is now officially closed until further notice.


----------

