# Difficult time posting



## madima (Sep 30, 2018)

I’ve been riding for about three months all together, and I still can’t get the hang of posting. My trainer has me riding in Western tack until I get better, but she’s still teaching me to post. I’m using the stirrups to post, which I know is incredibly wrong. I just can’t seem to figure out how to lift with my thighs and hips. It seems impossible, but I know other students who picked it up really quickly. With every two-point, I’m putting most of my weight into the stirrups. I have no clue how to do it, and it’s becoming impossible to progress in my riding because I’m not able to post correctly. I know with practice I will eventually get it, but I have to start somewhere. Any advice on how to properly post would be greatly appreciated. Thanks 🙂


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Don't try too hard when you post. Let the horse push you up and forward. That bouncing you feel in the trot? You use that motion for the rising portion.

Also, the "up" part of the posting isn't so much an upwards motion as it is a forwards-and slightly-upwards motion. So while you do lift up out of the saddle a little, you're mostly bringing the front of your pelvis forward in the saddle.

If the horse you're having lessons on has a very smooth trot, it can actually be harder to learn to post on them because there isn't as much "push" to get you into the motion!

When you say you're pushing into the stirrups when you post and when you're in two-point, do you mean you're actually pushing on the stirrup tread with the balls of your feet, or that your leg is pushing down into your heel behind the stirrup? Your weight dropping down into your heel is a normal part of both of those, as long as you're not actually jamming your heel down and bracing. If you're using your stirrup tread to stabilize yourself then you need to try to redirect that weight into the back of your lower leg instead, with the stirrups tread just a platform that your legs drops down from. Think of standing on the edge of a stair on the balls of your feet, and letting your heel drop lower than the stair. That's the direction some of your weight should be going in posting (to some degree) and two-point (to a larger degree).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SteadyOn said:


> When you say you're pushing into the stirrups when you post and when you're in two-point, *do you mean you're actually pushing on the stirrup tread with the balls of your feet, or that your leg is pushing down into your heel behind the stirrup? *Your weight dropping down into your heel is a normal part of both of those, as long as you're not actually jamming your heel down and bracing. If you're using your stirrup tread to stabilize yourself then you need to try to redirect that weight into the back of your lower leg instead, with the stirrups tread just a platform that your legs drops down from. Think of standing on the edge of a stair on the balls of your feet, and letting your heel drop lower than the stair. That's the direction some of your weight should be going in posting (to some degree) and two-point (to a larger degree).





this is an excellent point. 



if you are pushing 'through' your stirrup and whole leg, such as @*SteadyOn* describes as down into your heel behind the stirrup, you will be doing it right. the actual push really comes from the top of your thigh, where it meets your groin. You are just sort of putting weight INTO your whole leg, and the stirrup just keeps your leg from stretching down to the ground.


the other way, you are pushing the stirrup 'AWAY' from you, and you are probably using the muscels in your calf, such as those you use to point your toes, in order to push the stirrup away from your body. This is not how you want it to feel.


It's a bit like riding a bike; it can seem impossible, and then once you get the feel, you NEVER forget. When you do it right, it's so easy that you eventually become able to post on and on, without tiring much.


The horse does need to give you enough energy to post OFF OF, so maybe asking for a bigger trot would help. Also, experiment with your stirrup length. Lastly, if the Western saddle has the stirrup places quite far in front, it can put you into a bit of a chair seat, which is hard to post from


If you would like to post a video of you posting the trot, we can give very specific pointers.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

First, if your trainer has not demonstrated the motion on this horse using the same tack, ask her to do so. She may discover the need to alter or add to any advice she has previously given.

You should let the motion of the horse do most of the work in lifting your body in the rising trot. Gravity will do most of the downward work. Your only job is to lightly and smoothly accentuate or control these two effects. Sounds easy, but reality brings in complications.

The energy of the horse’s movement must be sufficient to propel your body upwards. Your ability to follow the horse’s movements will be influenced by how your body is sitting on the saddle as well as how the stirrups position your feet in relation to the rest of your body. 

A video of you riding this horse while using this tack would certainly help access what advice might assist you. Also, a more detailed description of your efforts and what you are feeling physically happen would add to our understanding of the situation.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm bewildered by modern day theories on how ans why to post. If the horse does the work of lifting you, then the horse is still working hard. When I took lessons at a college in the west in the 70s, I was taught posting was done to save the horse's energy, so he would have zip when you got to the work site and moved cattle. It wasn't so the horse would work at tossing your rump up.

Second, the advantage to carrying weight in the stirrups is that the stirrups are attached close to the horse's center of gravity. It also allows the saddle to pivot freely. And if your weight is in the stirrups, then your entire leg can act like a shock absorber. If you don't do that, then is the horse actually benefiting?

Consider:

"_The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N - *97.3%*) and the two-point seat (1688 N - *79.9%*). The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting  trot._"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023309001488

If someone relies on the horse to shove their weight into the air, and then only uses their thighs to soften the impact of coming down, does the horse actually gain any advantage? Why not use the stirrups to allow your knee and ankle and entire leg to spread the weight over a longer time, reducing peak impact forces? It also is easy for the rider to learn and do...


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

It helped me to think of my knee as the pivot point of a hinge. With the natural up and down motion of the horse in trot, let yourself go up with you adding some effort to , as said already, bring your pelvis/hips both slightly upward and slightly forward while letting your lower leg (from knee down) stay quiet. Don't try to force the lower leg to stay still, no stiffness or tension is desired, just be sure that you are not trying to stand in the stirrups or trying to push yourself upwards from your foot. Standing in the stirrups to try to post causes the knee joint to straighten, you want to keep the bend in the knee and let it be the 'hinge' point. Don't grip hard with your knee though. As already said, if the horse has a nice 'jog' trot, it can become very difficult if not impossible to post since his up and down motion is greatly diminished. Posting is not the rider pushing,standing,forcing himself up out of the saddle. It's also not the horse working harder to get you up. It's using the natural motion and adding some effort to it from the rider. The rider also doesn't let himself plop back down into the saddle, but lets himself down with some control, so muscle strength and muscle memory need to be developed as well. 

Posting was difficult and confusing for me to learn. I was learning on a 'Western' horse with a lovely jog that was easy to sit and darn near impossible to post to. Try not to overthink it,,,easier said than done, I know. 
You say 'with every two point, I'm....etc." as if two point and posting are the same,,,or one requires the other. This is confusing to me....The two point position isn't the same as the 'up' portion of posting, and trying to go into two point and back down with every stride would be ...well, I can't imagine trying. 

Agree with previous poster who said to ask your instructor to ride the same horse in the same tack as it might be the horse causing some of you difficulty , which might be an eye opener for the instructor. Another option is to learn in an English saddle, which would be a bit easier, then once you have it down pat, you could transition to a Western saddle if you want. I don't understand your trainers thought process of a Western Saddle 'until you get better'. You can learn in either and/or both! 
You'll get it!
Fay


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

of course you're not having the horse toss your rump up, as if you are a dead sack of potatoes. That WOULD take away energy from him, and the sack of potatoes would come thunking down, just as the horse was rising again, making for worse impact, worse deadening of energy.


You are using some effort and coordination on your own part to allow and 'follow' that upward motion. you stay just in front of it, as if surfing a wave. If the motion is really small, it's hard to feel when to allow it to move forward. If you aren't moving forward with it, then your weight is being moved 100% by the horse, and that would be just as tiring for him as you just plain sitting the trot.




Posting is meant to amplify the trot, or at least not deaden it. It can, if needed, be used to constrain and reduce the trot, depending on what you want from the horse.


While your knee is the 'pivot point', you should be down through your leg, past the stirrup, so in a sense, you ARE standing on the stirrup.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

You don’t need a tight grip as you shouldn’t be rising that far out of the saddle. The more you grip, you’re going to stiffen and either pull your leg back and heels up causing you to fall forward or push your legs forward and fall backwards. It’ll be far harder for you to rise and for the horse to give you the ‘push’ out of the saddle. The rise should be a gentle forward and up movement, barely coming out of the saddle, with your feet under your hips and knees lightly in contact. 



I’m not sure how this would work in a western saddle but you could give this exercise a try. When your horse is in the halt, stand in your saddle, hips over your knees as if in the rising part but stay up. Keep your knees bent, your weight through your heels. Due to gripping, if you’re straightening your knees and pushing them forward, you’ll drop into the saddle, bending them too far backwards, you’ll drop forward. You’re looking to be balanced and standing.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Posting is meant to amplify the trot, or at least not deaden it.
> 
> While your knee is the 'pivot point', you should be down through your leg, past the stirrup, so in a sense, you ARE standing on the stirrup.


Amplify the trot is a great concept that seems very helpful to someone learning. I like that expression.

Please help me understand what exactly is meant by 'down through the leg, past the stirrup'. I'm betting that we are 'on the same page', but I'm not 'getting' that wordage. How can one be 'past the stirrup'? the heel of your foot should be lower than the toes/ball,,,but none of you or your foot is 'past' the stirrup. I know, Im a very literal person sometimes. 

Well, in a sense you are standing on the stirrup, your seat is up, your knee is on, and your foot is on the stirrup, so I can see that as 'in a sense standing on the stirrup', but it's a 'bent at the knee with very little of your weight' on the stirrup, as opposed to straightening the knee and pushing all or most of your weight up with your feet and lower legs. 
In trying to help the OP understand the dynamics of the post, I was trying to eliminate the gray area (you're standing on the stirrups but youre not standing on the stirrups) by speaking in black & white, so to speak, terms.
I do remember my frustration when learning to post, hope I didnt' make it more confusing for the OP!

Fay


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Posting takes a surprising amount of muscle strength to do well, so your posting will probably automatically improve as you get stronger. 

When I first started to learn posting, my legs were like wet noodles after lessons, and then I had to learn to post without stirrups!


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

following


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Consider:
> 
> "_The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N - *97.3%*) and the two-point seat (1688 N - *79.9%*). The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting trot._"


Side note: Trotting in two-point while controlling the horse's direction is *hard*! My instructor timed me, and I was *done* after 4 mins! I still do it on the trail when we hit terrain where it's hard for him to get a rhythm.

OP: In any case, posting is not like getting up from a chair - by doing so, you lean your body forward and you push with your legs, don't you? Since your feet would be under your center of gravity, it resembles more a forward arch of the pelvis with the feet and shoulders staying relatively quiet. You can try and practice this by bouncing on a pilates ball, actually. The other thing is that you yourself need a sense of rhythm, so do it with a metronome.

This just in conjunction with all the other beneficial advise you already got.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sounds like you haven't found your balance. perhaps you could try riding stirrupless for a time and that will help. Once you develop balance and a good seat then posting should come much easier. Having your trainer ride if he hasn't been on the horse is also a good idea.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

From my studies, I understand that the main reason the rising trot (posting) was developed was to make trotting easier on the rider’s seat. A secondary advantage was making the trot easier on the horse’s back.

But let’s consider the idea of energy expended. When a rider allows the horse to lift him from the saddle, the rider is indeed helping the horse conserve energy when compared to not rising. 

While a rider who is not rising can still use his body in such a way that it does not interfere much with the horse’s movements, many riders ride a sitting trot in a way that does interfere with the movements of the horse. This latter instance may be considered similar to applying the brakes of your car as you ask someone to give the car a push.

Using the idea of moving cattle presented by bsms, we should also consider the results of a rider posting badly. If a rider is expending a lot of energy attempting to do a rising trot, he will have less energy and focus left to ride the horse well after reaching the destination.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

mslady254 said:


> Amplify the trot is a great concept that seems very helpful to someone learning. I like that expression.
> 
> Please help me understand what exactly is meant by 'down through the leg, past the stirrup'. I'm betting that we are 'on the same page', but I'm not 'getting' that wordage. How can one be 'past the stirrup'? the heel of your foot should be lower than the toes/ball,,,but none of you or your foot is 'past' the stirrup. I know, Im a very literal person sometimes.
> 
> ...





Hi Fay, 



I now have a chance to address your questions, which I so appreciate.


To me, 'down through the leg ' means that your weight is born about 50% on the stirrup, and the other 50% is by the sheer contact of the WHOLE upper leg, the inside of the knee, and the upper calf against the horse.
Seriously. the inside of your long leg literally bears some of your weight. If not, then all of my 200 lbs would be pressing down through my buttocks only, via my seatbones. OUCH! 



No, I have some 'tone' in my thighs. They are compressing inward on the horse, not clamping, but sort of . . hm . . . . supporting?
When that inward compression gets too tight, you end up gripping too much at the knee. Then , the knee become more than just a 'pivot ' point , it becomes the 'end' of your leg. (remember, pivot point just means that the bending occurs there, and since you knee bends, it's only natural that it will occur there. It doesn't mean you grip so tight at your knee that it become pinned , and your lower leg ceases to exist.


Here's an excersize to help you feel your WHOLE leg being your contact on the horse, even when it is bent, and your knee is opening and closing slightly to accomodate posting. 



While you are posting along, bring your lower leg OFF the side of the horse a good 3 inces or so. Feel how you drop more into your heel. You can get that even more by 'lifting' your toes. Then, put your leg back into contact with the horse's side. It should feel more 'solid' . Post along.
when ever you feel like you are coming up, bring your heel up and pinching with you knee, bring that lower leg off the hrose for a stride, then back on after your heel has dropped. As it gets easier to do, bring your leg of the hrose only a half inch or so, and ride one. Do it frequently, until your lower leg doesn't need this kind of 'reset' of position.


you asked about the difference between posting off your stirrups and pushing your stirrups. 



think of this. . . When you stand on the earth, you are literally pushing into the earth, just enough to keep yourself from collapsing against the pull of gravity. However, you can push harder, as if you were trying to push the earth away from you, ( you contract your calf muscles) .

You will rise upward onto your tippy toes. if the earth were smaller, you'd push it away from you.


It's the same feeling in the stirrups: you push onto the stirrup bar about the same amount as you would onto the ground you stand on. you COULD push more, but it will result in your lifting upward, and the stirrup swinging away from if you aren't pushing exactly downward.


When people are not connected to the stirrup, but pushing entirely from the pivot point of the knee, if they are gripping tightly, and the hrose makes a sudden stop or change of direction, they can more easily end up being catapulted out of the saddle. Being down , all the way to the 'ground' gives you greater stability.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You know what improved my posting immensely? Watching Shakira videos and trying to dance like her, lol. I used to have a 50-50 shot of knowing the right diagonal, it also helped me to know it right away, and exactly when to rise.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

@tinyliny, thanks very much for the detailed explanation, I hope the OP does read it, you explain in more depth what I described by the knee being the pivot point! Definitely support with the inner thigh and don't grip with the thigh or knee. Also, the 'knee opening and closing to accomodate posting' further explains the knee being the pivot point. OP, 'opening and closing' means the angle of the bend at the knee increases and decreases....I used to not know what was meant when the terms 'open the hip' or 'open the knee' meant. 
Interesting excercise !! I'm pretty sure that I'm getting the whole leg as you explain, but I will try this excercise. I haven't been corrected or instructed in the posting by an instructor in a very long time,,,so hopefully I am not wrong in thinking that my leg is good. I believe you and I were on the same page in trying to help the OP.... it was the wording that was throwing me...you explained it very well and thoroughly. I appreciate you taking the time to do that.  @waresbear, I need to google or youtube Shakira...LOL...I still have to glance down to make sure I'm on the correct diagonal...I almost always am, but I'm not confident that I got it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*IF* one uses the stirrups for posting or two point, then this comment on correct body position from the US Cavalry manual on equitation is important:


> How to Test Correctness of Rider's Position: If the rider is in balance as a result of his upper body's being properly inclined forward, he is able at the walk, trot or gallop, WITHOUT FIRST LEANING FARTHER FORWARD and without pulling on the reins, to stand in his stirrups with all his weight in his depressed heels.
> 
> In executing this exercise the seat is raised just clear of the saddle by stiffening the knees but keep them partly flexed. The upper body REMAINS inclined forward at the hips. At the trot one hand should touch the horse's neck LIGHTLY to assist in remaining in balance. At the walk or gallop [canter] the rider, if his seat is correct, should be able to stand in his stirrups without the aid of his hand. A rider, who can execute the above exercise at all gaits and without first changing inclination, is in balance and never "behind his horse". The majority of those NOT in this position partly maintain their balance by hanging on to the reins, thus unnecessarily punishing their horses' mouths as well as their backs.


On any given ride, I'll spend some time sitting "tall in the saddle". When I do, it helps to have my heels under me. I'll spend some of my time leaning forward, encouraging speed. When I do, it helps to have my heels forward of my hip and under my center of gravity. My horse's balance is fluid. My balance needs to be fluid too, and thus my position needs to be fluid.

If I try to use my stirrups for two point or posting without first making sure they are under my center of gravity, then my feet will reveal my imbalance by shooting forward or back. I'm convinced a stable lower leg is caused by keeping one's balance point over the stirrups, not by grip.

The picture below comes from a book on dressage by Jane Savoie:








​ 
The two riders on the left could use their stirrups as an aid to posting without their feet flopping around. They are "with their horse". If the third rider puts weight into her stirrups, her feet will slide forward. She is "behind her horse". It can be a good defensive position for a scared or nervous horse, but not for a confident and trained horse. The fourth rider is "in front of her horse" and in serious danger of falling. If she puts weight into her stirrups, her feet will shoot further back behind her.

Riding Bandit yesterday, I used positions e, f & g. He spooked at one spot in the trail, sprinting forward. But he wasn't THAT scared, IMHO, so I turned him back and walked thru that scary section, then turned around and walked thru it again and continued our ride. For that section, position "g" worked well. As a general rule, I find if I concentrate on balance instead of position, my body will adapt a position that helps my balance - and my horse's.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Have your instructor ride the horse and show you. A lot of western horses have a smooth jog, which is hard to post-- and lesson horses tend to trudge around at the trot rather than moving forward with impulsion, and that makes it harder to post. Throw in a western saddle that may not fit you well, and it can be very hard. Can you stand straight up in the saddle without having to lean forward or pull on the horn to do so? If not, it's likely the saddle is putting you in a chair seat or the seat is too big for you, and your alignment has your legs ahead of your shoulders, which makes posting difficult. 

A friend's daughter was really struggling to post on her instructor's lesson mare. My friend, who rides dressage and eventing got on after a lesson, and she couldn't post easily on that mare either as the saddle put the rider so far behind the motion and the mare had such a smooth jog, there was no impulsion to go on. Her daughter learned to post in minutes on a different horse with a better trot in a saddle that fitted her petite body well. Something to ask your instructor about.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> You should let the motion of the horse do most of the work in lifting your body in the rising trot. Gravity will do most of the downward work. Your only job is to lightly and smoothly accentuate or control these two effects. Sounds easy, but reality brings in complications.
> .



LOL like most things in riding, sounds easy, so hard to do, until you actually feel it, then having got it once you are fighting to make it a habit.


Absolutely this is a partnership, we used to reach rising at a walk, having the student stand up and sit down to practice, but that just led to an 'artificial rise' where people are relying to much on their stirrups, and are going to much 'up and down.'


Start by really feeling the horses movement, they will indeed move you up, and you take the movement, I like to imagine, thanks to Mary Wanless and Ride With Your Mind, an excellent book to read and revisit often, a cord attached to your belly button which goes away from you at a 45 degree angle, as you rise, you want your tummy to move forward and up. At the same time, a spring on your head keeps that up and keeps your body balanced. Trying to 'force' the rise, can end up with you being out of tune with your horse, so listen and feel for the lift.


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## evilgreen1 (Mar 15, 2016)

When I first started riding, my instructor told me to act like a string was pulling my bellybutton forward. A later (decades) instructor told me to act like I was lifting my hips up through my hands; I like this explanation better, it keeps me more balanced. Either way, it is your abs, hips and thighs that are doing the work and making the action of posting. 

That said, I do my best to post on my morab, but his trot is so smooth that I usually quit after we are warmed up. My little quarter horse is another story and I will get jostled all over if I don't post with him. Keep up the effort and good luck!


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## WillfullyEccentric (Jun 16, 2018)

I haven’t been riding long myself, (only about twice as long as you) but I’ve found a few things that I do off the horse that help a lot. 
1. Squats. But don’t do them fast. Do them As slow as you can bear to with as much control as possible, those are most of the muscles you want to focus on. But don’t squat with nothing under your butt. Slowly and carefully lower yourself up and down off of a hard chair or one of those boxes they have at gyms. 
2. Pilates with a focus on core muscles. (YouTube has a bunch of free videos) 
3. Stand on the edge of a stair and do your squats. (You May need a spotter) 
4. If you have the funds, get tall boots. (Cowboy or riding) - in MY case a lot of my issue was instability in my ankle joint. 

The day it clicks will be magical.
It will happen I promise. And don’t be discouraged either.


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