# Overo or tobiano?



## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

Im not sure if my paint filly is Overo or tobiano :? can anybody help me out? I've never been very good with naming pinto-colours, LOL


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## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

Excuse her legs being so dirty lol, it was muddy when the pic was took  They are supposed to be white but where theres a little bit of brown at the top, you can distinguish whats natural...sort of, LOL


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

She looks like either a palomino or sorrel overo.


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## deuceschinagirl (Jan 5, 2010)

Your filly is an overo. One way to tell is the white never crosses the top of their backs. Now, go to my barn and look at the photos of my horse, Impressively designed. My horse is a tobiano.


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## Snowkicker (Dec 23, 2009)

Yep she is a sorrel overo. Overos have white splashes on the side, often have white faces and a blue eye or two. They also are less likely to have stockings than Tobianos. There patterns are more jagged than tobianos too, and rarely cross the back. Tobianos usually have stockings a normally marked face and white patches running from their backs down. Tovero is when they have both patterns overlapping. Your girl is straight up overo.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

overo, chestnut (maybe even roan)


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## IndianGirl (Jan 6, 2010)

She is Overo


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

APHA.Com - Coat Colors


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

There are many different "overos", of which your girl is definately at least Frame (aka LWO). If you were to ever breed her, you must make sure the stallion has been tested negative LWO or else your foal has a 25% chance of dying within the first day of life.


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## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

Thnx everyone  i know her coloured markings are chestnut (with alot of roaning cos theirs loads of white hair flecked through the colour) I just wasnt sure if she was overo or tobiano. Now I know the difference between the two!! Thanx again =D


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

She's a frame overo. Not a good idea to breed her


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Just curious why should you not breed frame overo?


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Being frame does not mean she shouldn't be bred (not based on color alone), she just shouldn't be bred to another frame (tested frame, they're not all obvious).


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

She is a frame overo...

I probably wouldn't breed her based on her conformation, not because she could be LW...


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## KaylaOscer1994 (Oct 1, 2009)

very cute pic. she looks like a horse that i know ; D


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## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

LOL you only just realized that? haha =D. So how do you know shes a 'farme' overo? Is it because the chestnut patches sort of frame the white? (Her left eye is blue if you wondering lol)


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Neither - she's a tovero.

I took this right from the APHA website and I've bolded the ones that apply to your horse.



Tobiano:










*The dark color usually covers one or both flanks.*

*Generally, all four legs are white, at least below the hocks and knees.*

Generally, the spots are regular and distinct as ovals or round patterns that extend down over the neck and chest, giving the appearance of a shield.

Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip.

*The tail is often two colors.*





Overo:










*The white usually will not cross the back of the horse between its withers and its tail.*

Generally, at least one and often all four legs are dark.

*Generally, the white is irregular, and is rather scattered or splashy.*

*Head markings are distinctive, often bald-faced, apron-faced or bonnet-faced.*

The tail is usually one color.





Tovero:










*Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes.*

*One or both eyes blue.*

*Dark pigmentation around the mouth, which may extend up the sides of the face and form spots.*

*Chest spot(s) in varying sizes. These may also extend up the neck.*

*Flank spot(s) ranging in size. These are often accompanied by smaller spots that extend forward across the barrel, and up over the loin.*

Spots, varying in size, at the base of the tail. (I'm not really sure what this one means, and the painting of the horse they use as an example doesn't show any spots around its tail.)


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Sometimes you can't tell frame by looking, but she is a classic frame, and yes the color frames the white! Frame and Splash are my favorite patterns, and her's is very pretty!


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## Nickers2002 (Nov 25, 2009)

I would say Overo. I have a Tovero and the white as far as I'm aware of has to cross the spine. Her's doesn't. Here is a picture of my Tovero gelding...see how he's 50/50 with the flank spots, medicene hat, and chest shield? But the white also crosses his spine (and he has a spot on his rump and a butt shield  )


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Nickers2002 said:


> I have a Tovero and the white as far as I'm aware of has to cross the spine. Her's doesn't.


According to APHA, it doesn't have to. Her horse has 3/5 tobiano characteristics and 3/5 overo characteristics, so he's a mixture between the two.

He also has either 5/6 or 6/6 tovero characteristics (I'm not sure what the last one means).


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

It doesn't work that way, Cloud. The filly is a frame overo, as well as carrying possible sabino(the roaning) and definitely splash, which causes the blue eye. Here are the descriptions from the Equine Color website:

*Sabino*

There is only one form of Sabino that can be tested for, SB1, but many horses that exhibit phenotypical sabino markings test negative for SB1. It is not known at this time how many different genes may be expressing as what we call sabino. Sabino tends to affect the back legs of the horse first. It tends to leave chin white, and roaning along the edges of white markings, and sometimes scattered in the coat. Like any pattern, expression varies. At times markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing. According to the current visual evidence, sabino does not cause blue eyes. Sabino, at least SB1, is an incomplete dominant, meaning that homozygous horses express much more white then heterozygous horses - hence the term "max white sabino" The only breed currently thought to lack sabino is the Icelandic Horse.


*Splash*

Splash, or splash white, is theorized to be an incomplete dominant gene. Splash tends to leave white markings with even, well defined edges, almost as if the horse had been dipped in white paint, starting at the the head and legs. Blue eyes are common with splash, as well as bottom heavy or apron blazes. Splash is associated with deafness, but not all splash horses are deaf. It is thought that deafness is caused when splash inhibits pigment production in the inner ear. A well know AQHA stallion that exhibits splash is Colonels Smokin Gun


*Frame*

Frame is otherwise known as lethal white overo (LWO) syndrome. Frame tends to put color on the barrel and face of the horse, move horizontally, and leave the legs solid (although other patterns can add leg white). It also tends to leave white that is "splotchy," with jagged edges. It is well known to cause blue eyes, but not to cause roaning in the coat. The name "Frame" comes from the pattern's propensity to leave a "frame" of color along the outer edges of the barrel. 
Frame (LWO) is lethal in its homozygous form, with the foals being born solid white and only surviving a few days. They are born without a functional digestive track, and unless euthanized, die in gastric distress. Because it is often hard to visually tell if a horse has frame (there have been cases of solid colored horses testing positive), it is important to test breeding stock in all breeds that carry frame in order to avoid producing a lethal white foal. 
Frame is an incomplete dominant characteristic and breeding frame to frame does not increase your chances of obtaining a frame foal; statistically, 25% of foals from frame-to-frame breedings will die, leaving 50% frame and 25% solid surviving foals. Breeding a negative frame to a frame will give 50% solid and 50% frame foals. By only breeding non-frame to frame you effectively reduce your chance of a dead foal by 25%. The confusion among some breeders is most likely the result of horses carrying multiple white patterns, such as sabino and splash, in addition to frame.


She does not look to carry the tobiano gene at all.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

kassierae said:


> It doesn't work that way, Cloud.


Why not? She has a few tobiano characteristics and a few overo characteristics. That makes tovero...





kassierae said:


> She does not look to carry the tobiano gene at all.


Sure, not at first glance... but if you look a little closer, she has dark flanks, four white legs, and a two-toned tail. Those are tobiano characteristics. If she were just overo, explain all of that.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I also do not see tobiano. The definitions you are going off of are for tobiano and frame. She is frame and other "overo" patterns, all of which (except frame) cause leg white. Any pattern can have dark flanks, just depends on where the white is put on the horse. The reason that's considered a tobiano trait is that in tobiano only (which it's rare to find a horse that is ONLY tobiano), the flanks will be dark. Two toned tails can also be due to other patterns.


Jessi, who is very horse-color obsessed and is constantly reading the latest on colors


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

CheyAut said:


> I also do not see tobiano. The definitions you are going off of are for tobiano and frame. She is frame and other "overo" patterns, all of which (except frame) cause leg white. Any pattern can have dark flanks, just depends on where the white is put on the horse. The reason that's considered a tobiano trait is that in tobiano only (which it's rare to find a horse that is ONLY tobiano), the flanks will be dark. Two toned tails can also be due to other patterns.


What about the legs? Overos never have four white legs...


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes overo can have white legs, Splash and Sabino for example. There are different types of overo. Lots of solid horses have white legs, and they are not tobiano. 

It doesn't look to me like her tail is two toned, just solid red, but splash horses often have two toned tails, usually colored at the top and white at the bottom (tobianos tend to go the other way, w/ the color at the bottom).

And the blue eye(s) can be from Frame. There 'could' be more patterns there then just the one, but I'd just say she's frame.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Okay, if you guys say so. I'm not pretending to know anything about pinto genetics (and I don't) - I was just going by what APHA said.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

It just doesn't. Read the descriptions or go to the Equine Color website - www.equine-color.info and you will understand how it works. I've been studying horse color genetics on my own for years now.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

CloudsMystique said:


> What about the legs? Overos never have four white legs...


It's in the third sentence of mine you quoted 

Breed registries are HORRIBLE with colors, never go by them lol!


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

CloudsMystique said:


> Okay, if you guys say so. I'm not pretending to know anything about pinto genetics (and I don't) - I was just going by what APHA said.


The APHA website tries to describe _general/common_ characteristics of the patterns in a few short paragraphs and it is easy to understand that folks are sometimes mislead. Note that the words 'generally' and 'usually' appear often. For example, under Tovero, the APHA website says 'One or both eyes blue', but our Tovero has 2 brown eyes. 
I believe others have posted other web sites that provide more detailed information on the description and genetics of the patterns.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

PaintHorseMares said:


> The APHA website tries to describe _general/common_ characteristics of the patterns in a few short paragraphs and it is easy to understand that folks are sometimes mislead. Note that the words 'generally' and 'usually' appear often. For example, under Tovero, the APHA website says 'One or both eyes blue', but our Tovero has 2 brown eyes.
> I believe others have posted other web sites that provide more detailed information on the description and genetics of the patterns.





CheyAut said:


> It's in the third sentence of mine you quoted
> 
> Breed registries are HORRIBLE with colors, never go by them lol!



Haha, okay.


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