# Me and Clippy doing barrels!!!



## JustDressageIt

Morganshow, I see a very unbalanced very untrained horse. 

He needs to calm down, and realize that he CAN walk in and out of the pattern without bolting. 
You need to get off his face with your hands; they are very very severe and restricting, that is why he is bracing against you.

I still stand by my advice that this horse needs to be retrained from the ground up. He needs to learn that he CAN walk on a loose rein. He CAN trot on a loose rein, and he CAN act like a broke horse.

As for yourself, you are very unbalanced, and landing on the shoulder that you should be freeing up for him to actually get up and around the barrels.

Please get some professional help for both of you. I can see some VERY dangerous habits forming.


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## morganshow11

I have realized that he is unbalanced. But when i move barns i am getting him retrained. Thank you for your input!


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## JustDressageIt

You are as well, you need to work on getting yourself balanced so you don't have to balance on his mouth; I saw a lot of flopping about in the saddle, which doesn't translate well to a green horse.
Please take him back to square ONE. I am talking WALKING - no trotting or cantering until he can walk around on a loose rein without bracing. 
I think the problem is that you are too impatient - you want a made horse right now that you can play around on - Clippy is NOT a made horse; if you want one, please sell him and go buy one, poor Clippy doesn't know what to do.


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## JustDressageIt

Just food for thought - I think he is starting to resent being worked. See him acting up throught your run? He is so close to rearing up, but he's too honest to do it quite yet. If you keep going like you are, you could create a very dangerous horse for yourself. 
I bet if you keep riding like you are, he is going to become very sour and start rearing up on you and acting out. 
He is a cute horse that has potential, but you have to be able to be patient enough to work with him to harness that potential, not just go hell bent for leather.


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## Spastic_Dove

I'm not trying to come across as harsh, but I saw the same that JDI did. Clippy could be a good barrel horse, but from what I saw, you should not be even walking the barrels right now. Right now, he sees the barrels and gets all tense and starts popping up on you like he did. You, either as a result of him or for another reason, are getting tense as well. 
I would just work on dry work and no barrels until you can get him retrained. The more that you run barrels on him, the harder he is going to be to retrain. 
I would get him out of that bit. Like was mentioned on other threads, that is too severe of a bit for too green a horse. It looks like you are also riding two-handed which although that is a very good idea for such a green horse, it should not be done with that bit. You get heavy with your hands so Clippy starts bracing and gets tense so you get tense. 
See how he tried to duck out of that first barrel? He's getting so hot (not in a good way) and panicky. Barrels is not something he is enjoying right now. I see a very stressed out horse. 
I can not stress enough how important it is for you to get him off barrels. He is getting sour and getting into some very bad habits. In order to be a good barrel horse, you need to take him back to basic training. Right now I see both you and your horse being in danger. I don't mean to sound over dramatic, it just worries me. If there is anyway I can help, always feel free to PM me


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## JustDressageIt

Please take a moment to read this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/barrel-racing-myths-24365/


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## onetoomany

Also Morganshow I believe that you pulled him off that first barrel. From watching you have very little awareness of where your body is and what it is doing on a horse. As Spastic said, you should not be on barrels at all. You really need to go back to basics on yourself and solidify your base. Your hands and arms are flopping all over the place making a bad situation worse. JDI is right too in saying that he needs to learn how to move on a loose rein. If you are not up to getting him working on a loose rein it is time to sell him or send him to the trainers. I do actually see a horse that at one point may have known his way around a pattern but you are severly impairing him. Your weight is in the wrong places (dangerously flopping to the inside) and your hands are way too heavy. I know you have been told to ditch the mechanical hack and holy cow do those look like some shanks.

I'm also concered about the popping that I'm seeing in this video. Issues like that never get better they only get worse unless you work through them. I have seen way too many horses soured on barrels because of impatient kids and that looks like the direction Clippy is going. Let me tell you that the end result is not pretty. Take him off barrels, and as has been said get him working on a loose rein. JDI is also right in that Clippy may need to be restarted at this point it is probably the best thing for him and you.


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## jxclass19

You don't need to lean into the turns like what you are doing. That makes it way harder for him to turn.


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## NewHeart

I agree with both spastic and JDI as well. On the first barrel I don't necessarily think it was just your horse, but you as well. Like spastic said, you tense up your hands and then he braces against you. When your hands are not held up, they are flopping all over the place. To make it worse, the mechanical hack you using is putting A TON of pressure on his face. I also think that you need to work on developing a more well balanced seat. I noticed that you have tendency to bounce around a lot in the saddle, for example when you are coming home you lean back too much and lose your seat at the end. 

I agree that getting off the barrels would more than likely benefit both you and him. Try going back to basics, you will have a stronger horse at the end result. From where I am from, I have seen way to many horses end up where clippy is headed. They become over-run and completely nutty. Plus, I am sure you want to be a better rider and ruining your horse is not going to get you there. I am sorry if I come across as rude or blunt, I just think it would be shame for your horse to become one giant mess.


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## Joshie

Spastic_Dove said:


> I'm not trying to come across as harsh, but I saw the same that JDI did. Clippy could be a good barrel horse, but from what I saw, you should not be even walking the barrels right now. Right now, he sees the barrels and gets all tense and starts popping up on you like he did. You, either as a result of him or for another reason, are getting tense as well.
> I would just work on dry work and no barrels until you can get him retrained. The more that you run barrels on him, the harder he is going to be to retrain.......
> I can not stress enough how important it is for you to get him off barrels. He is getting sour and getting into some very bad habits. In order to be a good barrel horse, you need to take him back to basic training. Right now I see both you and your horse being in danger. I don't mean to sound over dramatic, it just worries me. If there is anyway I can help, always feel free to PM me





morganshow11 said:


> I have realized that he is unbalanced. But when i move barns i am getting him retrained. Thank you for your input!


Look, you're getting some good advice. Please listen. You do not handle your horse well. YOU need more training. You both need training from an adult, not a 16 year old. 

I see a hospital visit in your future and I'm scared that your horse will become unmanageable and dangerous. I'm scared for the safety of you both!


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## horseoffire

to get him to go to the first barrel do a circl don`t spin


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## Equuestriaan

I don't think it's fair to critique her, guys. You all are giving good advice, but if she wanted critique, she would have put the video in the critique section. I mean, I post my own videos in the videos section because I just want to share the video, and I don't want people critiquing me. So, while your advice is all good, please remember that she's not asking for a critique. She's simply sharing the video with you all.


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## JustDressageIt

morganshow11 said:


> If you see anything i can improve on(that you see) tell me!


 
QFT 





eta - "quoted for truth"


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## NewHeart

She asked for opinions.


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## Equuestriaan

Sorry, didn't see.


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## MIEventer

But Equuestriaan - if someone posts something on the forum, even if they didn't ask for a critique - and we see something that needs voice of opinion - we feel obligated to say something because we want to help.

Remember, we are here for the horse - and I look at the horse shaking my head because the poor thing has no idea what his rider is asking. He is trying so hard for her, but is confused beyond belief - and that breaks my heart.

So by friends giving advice on here, whether asked for or not - is not meant to hurt or insult or bash, but to help, aid and give assistance to.


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## Equuestriaan

Mhmm. I just didn't see she asked for critique, lol. *oblivious* xD


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## MIEventer

You see something going on that you want to help with, you have every right to say something. We're not doing it to be mean - we are doing it to help.

I cannot stand by not saying something, when I see something wrong going on. Regardless if asked or not.


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## Equuestriaan

Yeah. I get it. I don't think she's treating that horse well at all... the half-rearing is a clear sign that the horse wants that rider to stop what she's doing.


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## morganshow11

Well obviously i have a good for nothing horse, and i am a good for nothing rider. But thank you all for your input and i am serioulsy going to send him off to a trainer. period.


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## Spastic_Dove

I don't think you have a good for nothing horse or are a good for nothing rider. We don't mean for this to come off as an attack, we really do have the best in mind for you and Clippy.


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## morganshow11

What bit to you guys think would be good?


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## Spastic_Dove

A snaffle. Possibly a french link. I like eggbutts and D rings.

I would look at mylers level 1 bits and happy mouth snaffles. Something nice and gentle while you work with him.


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## morganshow11

Thank you! I will def. get one or two of those


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## Spastic_Dove

Anytime. Let me know if there is anything else I can help with


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## morganshow11

ok^^^^


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## JustDressageIt

You are not a crap rider, and he is not a crap horse! We ALL start somewhere!!

When I first started riding, my first fall was 2 weeks after I started. The horse halted from a trot and I fell... how silly is that? 

I do think that you and Clippy need professional guidance... then you can come and show us all up when you and him get your stuff together!!


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## NewHeart

No one said that you were a crap rider, or thinks that you have a crap horse. Everyone is just trying to give you advice to help you become a stronger rider. There is no shame in taking advice, or getting lessons. Like JDI said, we all start somewhere. Think about it, even some of the best riders like Charmayne James, Lindsay Sears and Sherri Cervi all had to learn to get to where they are today. Give it time and proper guidance and you will too.


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## LeahKathleen

Definitely don't take that attitude - I agree, we *all *started somewhere.

I teach beginner western lessons - just for basic recreational purposes. They all come to me thinking they can hop on and go, when in reality, I make them do all the boring stuff for a LONG time. They ALL start on the ground - just learning how to *walk around *a horse properly. First lesson, they don't even mount up. They all think I'm a mean, mean teacher. 

The first time they fall, they get it. It's not just "fancy stuff" - it's there for a reason. Yeah, "heels down, toes up" looks pretty, but it's real purpose is to keep the horse between you and the ground.

There is NO shame in lessons, like NewHeart said. 

You two need a trainer, for your safety. We want the best for you and Clippy. You clearly have a passion for horses (don't we all?) so harness it and create a beautiful, trusting, respectful relationship.

That horse is sour right now, and when two feet leave the ground, the other two will soon follow. You're about to end up on your butt because that horse doesn't know what you're asking him. He respects you enough right now not to buck or rear full on, but he's confused, and he's going to get fed up really fast and toss you on the arena floor.

Get some training for the both of you, please, and then show us what you two have got. I bet it'll be awesome. :]

Good luck!


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## RedRoan

Yikes, I highly recommend that you do what the people here are asking you to do. I had a friend who had a horse flip over on top of her because she didn't do basic flat work building before she started full fledged running barrels. She was 17 and broke her pelvis bone in two.... not fun.


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## Live2Jump

dont put yourself down, your not a good for nothing rider  x
but i do see some bad habits forming from both you and your horse 
you seem to have good balance but you dont seem to be using it correctly :s
your horse seems brilliant but a little green and the video shows him tense and unhappy and so i advice you start back with the basics. you dont want him to hate doing barrels, i can see him stressing out even before you start  id get him retrained, or do it yourself  you seem like a good rider (if your unsure about some things there are plenty of good riding books out there!).
also you could get lessons on clippy, that way you'd improve together!
everyones given you good advice so i suggest you do what you can and maybe put up a video in a few months showing us how you both have improoved!!!  
remember: start comepletely with the basics


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## morganshow11

Dont worry everyone i AM taking your advice and getting Clippy retrained and getting lessons. Do you guys think that he will still know the barrle pattern?


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## RedRoan

I think a horse shouldn't know any pattern. The rider should be in control of the horse but hey... that is personal opinion. Whenever I see a horse that knows a pattern it takes advantage of it and won't listen to the rider, that is when they start to knock down barrels and run vverrrrryyy wide around the turn.


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## eventerdrew

I think Clippy would benefit greatly from a french link snaffle like someone else has already said. I had a horse who was highly strung because people used way too big bits on her that she didn't need and when i put her in the KK french link training snaffle, she was great! I'm sure with some training and the right tack that Clippy will be an all around happy horse and you will be a happy rider! 

Keep us updated on his training progress!


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## NewHeart

Redroan I have to respectfully disagree. Just because a horse knows the pattern does not mean that the rider does not have control. Think about the horses that run at the NFR, they defiantly know the pattern, but are still listening to what their riders are telling them. There is a large difference between a horse that knows that pattern and knows their job vs. a sour horse that has had poor training and is overworked. Not trying to be rude, that is just my opinion. 

Morganshow- I am sure your horse will remember the pattern, but I would recommend that after you get him some proper training that you take things very slow. If you slow down and take your time with the basics you will find that when it does come time to really run the pattern that your runs will be more clean.


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## kershkova

horses should know the pattern the horse i lessed champ knew the patterns and he did not go wide of to tight horses rember things after they do them


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## Spastic_Dove

A barrel horse will know the pattern. Knowing the pattern and anticipating/not paying attention to your cues are two different things. 

However, once you got a solid foundation down with him ( able to go on a loose rein with a snaffle, flex laterally and vertically, move his hind end and fore end indepenently, smooth transistions, good stop and back, etc in a snaffle) I would want to start him on barrels, at least at first, as if he hadn't been on them before. Start at the walk. Don't let him get hot like he was in that video. A barrel horse should LOVE to run, but a barrel horse should not get so hot that they put you in danger and ignore your cues. 

When he is finally at the point where he is ready for barrels, go slow. Keep him calm and praise for being calm. Really perfect your pockets, rating, and turns. Dont run the pattern everytime you ride either. Most of your work is going to be dry work with no barrels. Also, there are plenty of exercises to use with barrels set up to keep him bending that also keep his mind fresh while helping your turns. 

Think of it as a fresh start so that you can get the best trained horse to really smoke your competition


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## morganshow11

Do you guys think that i could go to the gymkhana show here in MI on May 9th? OR not?


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## farmpony84

morganshow11 said:


> Well obviously i have a good for nothing horse, and i am a good for nothing rider. But thank you all for your input and i am serioulsy going to send him off to a trainer. period.


There is a right way to offer constructive criticms and there is a wrong way. I've ready through the first few pages of this thread and I beleive alot of people were harsh and hurtful in the way they typed their critiques. 

People, please try to remember that we were all beginners at one time or another and not all of us had the great trainers and were surrounded by experienced people that could offer immediate advice and we didn't all have the perfect SAFE horse the first time around. And please remember that this forum is not only here "for the horse". We are here "for the rider" as well.

Morgan,

I was in your shoes once. My first horse, Pistol reared and bucked and bolted and I rode w/ my reigns very tight, he actually used my reign contact as a 3rd leg in the front, he balanced off my preasure and that was wrong. And lucky me, I got the same advice you are getting. And I walked away with the same feeling you are walking away with. "I SUCK AND MY HORSE IS GARBAGE". Well, it took a lot of years but I figured it out and my horse won some year end championships at local shows. He also has been in more parades and performances then I can count. 

What I'm trying to say is, yes, your horse is unbalanced right now, you are working too hard to keep him under control, he's popping rears which will become very dangerous if you do not fix it immediately. You have a few balance issues but you are not a horrible rider and you are doing a great job working with him. You need to skip through the "ugliness" and pick out the advice that is offered because there is good advice. 

My suggestion is drop the speed events for now. Go back to the basics. Work on small circles, get off the rail and use a small small portion of the ring. do tons and tons of directional changes. work on your sitting trot and your halts. tons of halts and backs. trot for just a few lenghts and halt then back. don't canter for a while and when you do, just canter about 5 strides and come back to a trot or walk. Get him listening to you and get him collected. Get him working on a looser reign. You are looking at a few months worth of work.

But please, don't let this get you down. You are doing great. and you arent' horrible and neither is your horse.


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## IheartPheobe

I have never tried barrels before.. but here is what I am seeing :

See how his head is up? That is your fault. He wants his head. If you have tight reins so he doesn't go too fast.. that I don't get. If he can't walk around the arena on a loose rein you can NOT be galloping him around barrels!

You are fairly unbalanced and flapping around a lot. 
When he was rearing in the beginning, that wasn't him. You obviously need to walk/trot this horse around a little before starting barrels and not expect him to be doing all these fancy turns and yada. If he doesn't want to go, don't force him!! It's a matter of he doesn't want to be ridden and thats not his fault.
You need to work on your balance and you NEED to retrain this horse before you hurt him or yourself!!
His gaits seemed very unbalanced, too.


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## IheartPheobe

morganshow11 said:


> Dont worry everyone i AM taking your advice and getting Clippy retrained and getting lessons. Do you guys think that he will still know the barrle pattern?


 Hmm.
He will probably still know _how_ to do barrels.. you need to be able to guide him through the barrels, so even if it's a pattern he's never done before, he knows how to do it.


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## morganshow11

I asked my mom about sending him off to a trainer and she said that she doesnt have enough money for that


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## MIEventer

What I seriously think you need to do, is find a quallified and experienced Coach to work with you on a weekly basis - so that you can work on you. You need too fill in allot of holes in your education and trianing - so that you can benefit your horse.

Our horses only know as much as we do. And we only know as much as our Coaches do.


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## LeahKathleen

Sending him off will probably be more expensive than having a trainer come to you once or twice a week. Maybe ask your mom about that, and ask her what you can do around the house to earn part of the money.


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## morganshow11

Yeah that was what she was thinking. I think that would be more reasonable to due^


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## ChingazMyBoy

I am mainly a barrel racer but I do dressage, SJ, X Country and other gymkara work and I am training a horse to ride Barrels well at the moment so Heres what I think:

That you and your horse need to slow down an take the course slower first and before that walk, trot and MAYBE canter him around the arena till he feels carm.

Just my opinion and I hope it helps


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## Iluvjunior

I'm not trying to be mean or anytthing maybe its just because i've only seen pics of him in the snow but he dosen't look like a horse you would see barrel racing IDK maybe its just me but....


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## Spastic_Dove

I think she's gotten the point and is taking the right steps to work with her horse, guys. Telling her it is her fault is pointless. It's not. She just needs help and a set of eyes on the ground. 

I agree about getting someone to come out to you once a week. Maybe you can work off chores at a barn in exchange for the lessons or do chores for your mom. Having "homework" to work with, I find, is very helpful. 

In my opinion, it is even better than sending him to a trainer because not only will Clippy be learning, but so will you.


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## morganshow11

Thank you guys soooooo much for all your advice and stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RedHawk

I agree with the above comments. Getting a trainer/instructor/coach to work with you on a weekly basis will help a TON! It has with me and my green OTTB, and she helps correct both me and my horse.
Think about it this way, although going back to basics may seem boring and discouraging right now, it will make riding much more enjoyable for you and Clippy, and when you go back to doing barrels later, you'll be so much better!


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## NewHeart

I think that is a really great point to make Spastic. I agree that she will benefit so much more if she has proper lessons and she is the one riding him, vs. just sending him to a trainer where someone else will do it for her. 

Iluvjunior- Barrel horses come in all shapes, colors and sizes. Just because Clippy is not a quarter horse running on the WPRA circuit does not mean he doesn't fit the description of what a barrel horse is. If morganshow is doing something that makes her happy than that is all that matters.


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## morganshow11

Today i bought a tomthumb snaffle for Clippy. And OMG....i canride him on a loose rein, and not even hold on the the reins and all he does is walks. But i am still getting a trainer for me and him!


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## Spastic_Dove

A tom thumb is a curb bit. If you do ride with one, don't direct rein.


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## LeahKathleen

Glad to hear about the improvement. Remember that a curb bit like a Tom Thumb requires very soft hands, since the amount of pressure you put on the reins is multiplied by the leverage on the bit - not only will there be pressure in his mouth, but under his chin and on his poll. And as SD said, neck reining only.


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## ponyboy

I didn't think it was safe to jump in such a strong curb bit either...?


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## Spyder

morganshow11 said:


> Today i bought a tomthumb snaffle for Clippy.


 
You haven't learned one single thing and it is no wonder no one wants to bother even trying to give you any advice.

I have refused to post anything on this thread because I expected a post like this after everyone has given you THEIR time and good points.

I am just sorry that everyone wasted their time on you.


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## eventnwithwinston

Spyder said:


> You haven't learned one single thing and it is no wonder no one wants to bother even trying to give you any advice.
> 
> I have refused to post anything on this thread because I expected a post like this after everyone has given you THEIR time and good points.
> 
> I am just sorry that everyone wasted their time on you.


I think Spyder has summed up almost everything for ALL of your help threads. 

E


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## Joshie

morganshow11 said:


> Today i bought a tomthumb snaffle for Clippy. And OMG....i canride him on a loose rein, and not even hold on the the reins and all he does is walks. But i am still getting a trainer for me and him!


A Tom Thumb is NOT a snaffle bit. It's a harsh bit. Your pictures show that you use a lot of pressure. You can harm your boy badly with all that pressure. 

Please realize that I'm not telling you this to be mean. I want you to work with a professional trainer before riding your boy again. My young daughter said, when watching your video, "Doesn't she know she's not doing that right?" 

I think it's important to start over with your training. Starting over with your training may allow you to accomplish your goals with your boy.


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## eventnwithwinston

Very well said Joshie.


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## Spastic_Dove

Some bits to use: 








French Link Snaffle by Myler








D ring Happy Mouth with roller









Full Cheek Snaffle









Eggbutt

See how the reins all attach to the big rings? That makes it a snaffle. A tom thumb is commonly refered to as a snaffle, but it is a leverage bit. 

Here is a good link to explain how tom thumbs work and why they aren't what you want right now: http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm


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## RedHawk

Agreed!!! ^^^ Any one of these bits would be much better for you guys!


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## mell

i always thought this type thing was a tom thumb?
http://www.thetackshed.co.nz/123616_Tom-Thumb-Stainless-.jpg


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## ChingazMyBoy

Spyder said:


> You haven't learned one single thing and it is no wonder no one wants to bother even trying to give you any advice.
> 
> I have refused to post anything on this thread because I expected a post like this after everyone has given you THEIR time and good points.
> 
> *I am just sorry that everyone wasted their time on you*.


This is true but personaly I think that last line was just a little harsh.


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## eventnwithwinston

Spastic_Dove said:


> Some bits to use:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Link Snaffle by Myler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D ring Happy Mouth with roller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full Cheek Snaffle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eggbutt
> 
> See how the reins all attach to the big rings? That makes it a snaffle. A tom thumb is commonly refered to as a snaffle, but it is a leverage bit.
> 
> Here is a good link to explain how tom thumbs work and why they aren't what you want right now: Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


 
The english bit they have in that article for a tom thumb is incorrect. It should look like a pelham with short shanks.


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## Spyder

mell said:


> i always thought this type thing was a tom thumb?
> http://www.thetackshed.co.nz/123616_Tom-Thumb-Stainless-.jpg


 
You are correct for Australia as they call that particular bit a "Tom Thumb" but in most other parts of the world a Tom Thumb is a shanked western curb bit.

Here is a page which shows you types of Tom Thumbs referred to in the US.

Tom Thumb Horse Bits and The Differnce Between Curb Bits and Snaffle Bits

Note the comments at the bottom of the page which I have copied here.

*Did You Know?*

A Tom Thumb bit is a "curb" style of bit. With a curb bit the reins are attached to the bit in such a way as to give the rider leverage when the reins are pulled on. In the case of a Tom Thumb bit (and many other styles of bits) the reins are attached to a shank that extends downward from the mouthpiece of the bit. Attaching the reins to the shank is what provides the rider with leverage.
A "snaffle" bit, on the other hand, is a type of bit where the reins are attached in such a way as to place a direct pull on the mouthpiece of the bit without the use of leverage.
Some people incorrectly call a Tom Thumb bit a snaffle bit because it has a broken mouthpiece, which is also often called a snaffle mouthpiece. However, if a bit works off of leverage (like a Tom Thumb does) it is a curb bit regardless of the style of mouthpiece.


Interesting article regarding the dangers of this bit and even he mistakenly refers to a Tom Thumb as a Tom Thumb snaffle (which it is not)

Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb

Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


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## Spastic_Dove

I used to ride my arab mare in a tom thumb and she went really well in it...Id rather see him in a snaffle though. If he is really working nicely in the tom thumb though, just make sure you are neck reining and remaining light with your hands. 

Im honestly not sure about english tom thumbs.







This and what Spyder posted are what I have always referred to as a tom thumb. 
English may be different. On the article I posted, the middle bit they show is a tom thumb and what I assume she is using. 

MorganShow, is that the bit you are riding in?


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## eventerdrew

I love my KK training snaffle. It's a french link

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/5755/images/300x200/Sprenger%20KK%20Ultra%20snaffle.JPG

dunno if that's harsh enough for you right now but it's something that is great for everyday riding and showing


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## eventnwithwinston

Thats the bit I use for dressage on my OTTB. he loves it.


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## eventnwithwinston

This is a *regular* pelham bit. It is a *curb* bit and uses* leverage*. 










This is a *short shanked* pelham bit. Also known as the english rider's version of a *tom thumb*. Notice the difference in the length of the shanks?* A leverage bit multiplies the amount of pressure* put on the mouth of a horse while for a snaffle, one ounce of contact on the reins equals one ounce of pressure on the horses bars and lips. 

Hope this helps you any... I know there are different versions of a tom thumb for those who ride in different countries or ride english or western.
Thanks, E


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## Spastic_Dove

Alright. That makes sense. So either version is a leverage bit.


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## morganshow11

Yes, SD that is the bit i use, and i ONLY neck rein, b/c i know that it could be harsh if it has direct contact. ANd i also found out that clippy is soooooo much tighter at the barrels with the Tomb Thumb


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## eventnwithwinston

You know that bit uses two reins dont you? A snaffle and a curb rein. If you wanna ride with two you have to use a bit converter.

SpasticDove- Yupp. Glad it makes sense.  Either is a leverage bit, theyre practically the same bit...


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## JustDressageIt

So, so much for staying off the barrels and getting groundwork done?


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## Spastic_Dove

If she is riding western (Which I would assume she is if she is still barrel racing) there is only one rein.


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## Spastic_Dove

*Are you serious...*



morganshow11 said:


> Yes, SD that is the bit i use, and i ONLY neck rein, b/c i know that it could be harsh if it has direct contact. ANd i also found out that clippy is soooooo much tighter at the barrels with the Tomb Thumb


...I missed this post before I posted my last comment. So sorry for the double post. Why are you on the barrels? I don't get you. Mods, sorry if this comes off rude in advance, but we're trying to give you all the help you can...I've made sure to subscribe to this thread because I think it is so important to try and help out young barrel racers...but your ignoring all our advice and wonder why your horse charges jumps and is running a crap barrel pattern. 

Why do you even post if you're going to claim to try and work with your horse, but then can't be bothered with it and just go back to running barrels again


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## Spyder

Spastic_Dove said:


> ...I missed this post before I posted my last comment. So sorry for the double post. Why are you on the barrels? I don't get you. Mods, sorry if this comes off rude in advance, but we're trying to give you all the help you can...I've made sure to subscribe to this thread because I think it is so important to try and help out young barrel racers...but your ignoring all our advice and wonder why your horse charges jumps and is running a crap barrel pattern.
> 
> Why do you even post if you're going to claim to try and work with your horse, but then can't be bothered with it and just go back to running barrels again


Maybe the member below will finally understand that _*my post they quoted was NOT harsh at all*_ but there are people that are not worth the time to help anymore.



ChingazMyBoy said:


> This is true but personaly I think that last line was just a little harsh.


ChingazMyBoy was quoting this part of my post..



Spyder said:


> I am just sorry that everyone wasted their time on you.


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## LeahKathleen

Gotta agree with SD and JDI on this one Morganshow... this isn't looking good for your case.

I've noticed this throughout your threads... the moment someone offers you advice, you reply with "I know, I've done that, the problem is fixed now."

You are losing, if you haven't completely lost, credibility with these statements. Training takes time. We're talking spending *months *doing groundwork with Clippy, not just a couple of days or hours. This is something that WILL TAKE TIME to correct. You can't just slap a new bit on him and start tearing through a barrel course again.

You need to stop asking for advice if you're going to brush it off completely. It's a waste of everyone's time.


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## Spastic_Dove

No, Spyder, I don't think what you said was harsh at all. 
I'm pretty sure I have just been wasting my time. Awesome.


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## eventnwithwinston

....
She just doesnt get it does she. Seems like everyone has made the same posts over and over again. Shes not going to take the help and critique we give her... so why bother? Let her figure out on her own that pretty soon she is going to have a horse that is ruined and possibly dangerous. You should have learned from your mistakes a long time ago. Whats it gonna take to get you to see you need to be coached and to practice, particularly flat work? A pained horse? A riding accident?
I surely hope not, so for your own safety Morganshow11 (and that of your horse), can you at least act like your taking in ANY of our information? 

Just like SD said, "hope this doesnt come across rudely", but it needed to be said. 
Were giving you FREE help. If you dont fix the problem correctly now, your horse will eventually just wear down either in pain and scared, or will potentially try and hurt you. Hope you take away at least something from all of our annoyed posts... 

E


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## JustDressageIt

eventnwithwinston said:


> Were giving you FREE help.


 
Just thought I'd throw this out there... I've got a paypal account!! 



In all seriousness, Morganshow you have gotten some great advice here but I think you have worn our patience very thin - you have for me, this will be my last post in any of your threads until you can prove that you actually want help, and will take the advice given.


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## Equuestriaan

We tell you that you need a kinder bit. You go out and get another harsh one.
We tell you to go back to ground work. You're back the next day running barrels.

How do you expect us to help?

I feel bad for the poor horse. Clippy's getting the short end of the stick, and he didn't do anything to deserve that.


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## morganshow11

My old trainer at my barn said just to try it once and see if he responds to that bit well, so i was listening to her.


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## Dressage10135

If you have a trainer you are going to listen to then why would you act like you are following everyone's advice on here? I know I haven't posted on this thread, but I have been following it. You obviously don't want to hear the truth about you and Clippy.


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## farmpony84

In Morgans defense... there is a lot of advice here. And I understand that you want to do speed events so it doesnt make sense to you to go back to the basics and "slow" your horse down before hitting the speed events. It really does sound silly BUT... it has a purpose. You want to teach your horse to move from his hind end, that will actually give you a quicker start, sharper turns, and a faster all around run. It will also take strain from his front legs. Another thing you want is for him to learn to respond to your seat and your legs because you should be steering more with legs and seat rather then reigns. I know it "sux" to have to "go backwards" but in all honosty, you'll get where you want to go faster if you follow some of the advice that is offered here. The only thing I'm going to say about the bit is that if you are heavy handed and using a harsh bit you are going to end up w/ a lot of problems....

Good luck to you.


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## eventnwithwinston

Very very good advice farmpony.


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## Spastic_Dove

MorganShow-- 
Haven't we all given you fairly similar advice? Get off the barrels, get a soft bit, go back to basics.

When you "trainer" (Is this still the 16 year old) told you to use a tom thumb -- A leverage bit that a lot of people have problems with (Though it can work -- Like I said, it did on my mare...but she was soft in a snaffle too) didn't you think to ask your trainer WHY

It is important to know why our trainers are telling us to do what they want us to do. If your trainer is telling you to use a curb bit on Clippy, I would HIGHLY suggest getting a new trainer.


Are you still using the tom thumb and doing barrels/jumping?


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## morganshow11

Yeah, when i move him i will be borowing a few differnt bits for clippy, from my new trainer.


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## Spastic_Dove

I would stick to one. One snaffle that works. When you change bits, they are going to be getting signals from different places.

Right now if you are running barrels and jumping in a bit like that you are just making more work for your new trainer and for you and clippy.


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## morganshow11

I am not going to jump anymore. Im just sticking to dressage and western.


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## Spastic_Dove

Well then stay off barrels too until you have a barrel-ready horse.


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## randiekay215

I totally agree with what everyone has said here. I moved my gelding from a D Ring snaffle to a tom thumb and that was a BIG mistake. Nothing but trouble. Get that out of Clippy's mouth. I posted a thread on here about the tom thumb bit and got a lot of good advice. I am now using a full cheek snaffle on Bandit. He does great with it! Maybe try one of those if your looking for outside pressure. Anyway here's my advice:
1. NO TOM THUMB BIT
2. Ground work, ground work, ground work!
3. Ride bareback:w/t/c bareback-It will definately get you the balance and muscle memory that you need
4. Stay away from the barrels. PERIOD.
5. Get that loose rein confidence before you start anything else
6. Get a coach/trainer/professional for both YOU and Clippy...Like Spastic said, it would be better for you and Clippy both to undergo training together. I don't care what anybody says-you are ALWAYS learning.
7. Along with #3-learn to carry your own weight in the saddle-post if need be. I just worked with a trainer at my cousin's barn and he had me shorten my stirrups, sit with a straight back, toe into the pocket, and squeeze my thighs. Basic principles to get you started with carrying your own weight. It will help Clippy carry you better and will help you balance better.
8. SOFT HANDS! Let him have his head. My bf's mare would rear and buck when you didn't giver her her head. That may be part of the problem here as well....


Everyone has given you great advice, now you need to do your part and put it into action!!


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## morganshow11

Yeah your guys advice has helped me greatly, thank you all sooo much!!!!!!!


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## Spastic_Dove

I'm sure it has...we've seen just how much you invest into our advice.


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## Juniper

Can I ask how old you are? You said your mom will not pay for a trainer, makes me think you are young. It is very hard to do the right thing by your horse without ALOT of parental support if you are a kid.


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## Spyder

Juniper said:


> Can I ask how old you are?


She posted she was 12 then 14 then 16 changing her age a few times on this forum so maybe she is unsure of her age. :?

I believe she is actually 12


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## morganshow11

The reason for that is because, my mom wants me to be safe on the internet. But im pritty sure i can trust all of you on here, and yes im 12 1/2 lol.


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## RedHawk

I think that you really ought to be having lessons, with a qualified trainer/instructor/coach, at least once a week! You need instruction for both your sake and that of your horse.
If that is not possible then I would suggest looking at getting an older, steadier horse that can do the things you want. Both you and Clippy are young, which is not a good combination, and while you _can_ make this partnership work, you are going to have to put a LOT of effort in and you _will _need the help of someone more experienced. There is no quick fix for this, or any of his problems. Young, green horses take lots of work and patience, I know, I have one. 
Please seriously consider the advice you have been given by eveyone!


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## Juniper

IMO at twelve you either need an old, dead broke horse you can love and play around on, or a very invested adult organizing things for you and a less trained horse. Suggest to your mom that getting injured is very expensive. Way more expensive than sending a horse to the trainer and transporting you to the trainers for frequent lessons. Even the very experienced 12 year olds that I know, who have younger horses, still need a professional to coach them, a couple times a week. Also, they have an adult ride the horses regularly too. It is just impossible for a kid, which you still are at twelve, to do what you are trying to do. You can probably get an older horse for a very reasonable price right now, but you must commit to taking the horse to the vet for good dental care probably two times a year. Let Clippy go to a home where he can learn what he needs to know. So I am pretty much repeating what RedHawk said. I know it is time and work for a parent to try and sell Clippy and then hunt for a new horse for you. I am keeping my fingers crossed that it happens that way for you.


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## morganshow11

Thank you, but i rather not sell him, i know he is green and all but he is soooo special to me. And this way a can get a start in training(cuz that is what i want to be when i get older).


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## RedHawk

I know you love him, but sometimes with horses you have to make hard decisions, based on what's best for you and the horse, not what you want. If you won't consider selling him, what about leasing him to an older more experienced rider, if they'd be willing, while you lease out an older horse to gain experience on?


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## charliBum

yep always a bad thing for a young person to have a young hrose unless certain reasons are present such as experianced parents...older hroses are great!


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## morganshow11

I thought 7 was a reasonable age?


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## Equuestriaan

I wouldn't call 7 young. But 12 is very young to be training your own horse.


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## Jillyann

JustDressageIt said:


> I saw a lot of flopping about in the saddle, which doesn't translate well to a green horse.


I disagree! I did not see much bouncing about at all? your body has to move with the horses body, and thats what it looks like to me? you cant sit stiff up there...........??


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## MN Tigerstripes

I think it depends on the horse and the training that they have had. Soda is 8 but I wouldn't put anyone but an experienced (preferably older) rider on him. He is a hotter horse and not that well trained... just asking for trouble IMO. It seems like Clippy is a bit of a hotter horse too.


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## Joshie

morganshow11 said:


> I thought 7 was a reasonable age?


When people are talking about the age of a horse they are also referring to the horse's experience. You don't have a well broke seven year old horse. You have a seven year old greenie.

My daughter is eleven. We have a four year old horse. But...he lives at the trainer's house. We are working at basics with him because he's so young. WE get weekly lessons. Yes, my daughter and I take them together. For several months I took the lessons on Joshua but now my daughter takes them on him. We play games in a small arena on him so that he gets used to crazy behavior. One of our favorite games is hit the other person with a swim noodle. 

It is RARELY safe to have a young horse and a young child. It's been fine for us because: 1) our professional trainer chose the horse, 2) our professional trainer trains the horse, 3) our professional trainer boards the horse, 4) our professional trainer trains us, 5) we work at basic stuff (no barrels or jumps but we do hills and water trails, etc), and 6) this is an exceptionally calm horse.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but if you cannot afford a professional trainer (and not a child) then you really cannot afford your horse.


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## EternalSun

Green + Green = Black and Blue!


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## randiekay215

Haha well put EternalSun. 
I did not realize when I posted earlier that you were only 12 years old. There is absolutely NO reason why you should be running a green horse at your age. Take everyone else's advice before you or Clippy get hurt. Lease Clippy out to an older rider and lease an older horse to learn barrels on. With Clippy being so green at barrels as well as you, trying to train him yourself is just a recipe for disaster.....


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## NicoleS11

when i was 12 i was also riding a younger horse....but my situation was basicly the exact same as Joshie's. My horse lived with the trainer who was working him on a regular basis and i went out and rode him during the week. After my mom(who is also a trainer but because of health issues he will not brake young horses any more) decided it was ok to bring him home we did. My mom worked with me every day with him. We were never left alone to go galloping around the barrels...

Find a different horse...


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## BuckOff41570

EternalSun said:


> Green + Green = Black and Blue!


That was actually going to be what I posted next.

I've read through all of these...Yup. I sure am proud of myself too.

Hun, you need to step back and look at the situation. You have a green 7 year old...and you, yourself, are only 12 and green as well. If you want to become a trainer someday, this is not the way to do it. This is dangerous. Period. The advice on this post is 100% true... 
You (your parents) can't afford training?...but they can afford a horse with all its trimmings? And apperantly horse shows? 
Do your parents watch you ride at all? Did they approve this horse? 

I'm just gunna say it since no one else has...
The OP obviously is not in the mind to take advice...which I wouldnt always expect a 12 year, excuse me, 12 1/2 year old to comprehend the severity of the situation and the possible dangers here. 
Where in the world are the parents!? Why would they buy an obviously bad match for a child? How can they not see something wrong with this whole picture?
I'll tell you what, my folks would have never put me in such a dangerous position. Its sounds like its the parents being irresponsible rather than the child. 

"Hunny, don't put your real age or name on the horse forum...we don't want those crazy horse people to have to leave their lives to come and hunt you down. Oh but go ahead, ride the dangerous horse with no supervision or training. That's fine."


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## NicoleS11

i agree with BuckOff...horses are not babysitters.... i think parents need to be involved in there child riding horses(specially in this case). My mom still comes with me to cuttings because i know that she sees stuff that i dont and i love her comments and its just nice to have her there to help me out.


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## Juniper

Wow, well said BuckOff. NicoleS11, love to hear about good situations like yours and that bay horse in your picture is gorgeous.


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## JustDressageIt

Jillyann said:


> I disagree! I did not see much bouncing about at all? your body has to move with the horses body, and thats what it looks like to me? you cant sit stiff up there...........??


I feel the need to post because I was quoted directly.

There is a huge difference between moving with the horse and what I saw going on with her run; it was not moving with the horse, it was her losing her balance around the barrels. My memory wants to say to look closely after the last barrel, when Clippy turns home - she overcompensates for the turn and ends up having to really force herself back upright.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

A young (12) rider can train a young horse. But, that's a kid who has been in excellent training since she was three, goes to high rated shows every weekends, and started with a dead broke pony, then a slightly harder one, then a slightly greener one, THEN a w/t broke pony, along with a broke one so she can keep her skills up. Oh, and the pony is a well bred, levl headed pony who never had training issues.

This is not the case here. This horse needs some serious work or things will get dangerous, FAST. This rider needs proffessional training on a horse that is safe and sane. Both horse and rider have potential, but not if this situation continues. But maybe that's just me.


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## NicoleS11

Juniper said:


> Wow, well said BuckOff. NicoleS11, love to hear about good situations like yours and that bay horse in your picture is gorgeous.


Thanks...i know the pic makes him look like a bay but he is actually a chesnut. We were in the shade. I actually had to put him down last week.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

I'm so sorry!


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## Juniper

Oh, so sorry. What happened?


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## Spastic_Dove

A horses age has nothing to do with how broke they are. 
You can have a 20 year old gelding who has never had a saddle on him and would become a bronc if you tried to ride him. 

It's just USUALLY by age of 7, most horses would be far less green than clippy. Clippy is either very green or poorly trained (or a combination of both)


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## LeahKathleen

Definitely true. I've got two four year olds that are incredibly mentally sound. Yeah, they still need work because they are so young, but they are calm and level headed.

That being said, the quality of the rider will always add to the horse's greenness. Sometimes a horse that goes great with an upper level rider will flip out with uneducated beginners.


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## morganshow11

Im sure all of you think i am an inexperianced rider, but i am NOT. period. I used to have an arabian that was 4, and i was 8. And i could handle him so good, and he was hot. I dont care if all of you think im not an experianced rider but i know i am.


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## morganshow11

And i really dont get how all of you think that he is green? He is just hot thats all. And ya'll should of saw him when i first got him, he is sooo much better now!


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## Equuestriaan

I'm done watching this thread. *unsubscribes*
It's so frustrating when people ask for advice and then fight back against everything you say.


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## Spastic_Dove

We think you are an inexperienced rider on a green horse because thats what we SEE. 

You can ride for 20 years and not be what I would call an "experienced" rider if your 20 years of riding is tense, rushed, and sloppy.

I realize I am sounding more and more harsh, but being nice hasn't really helped


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## NicoleS11

Juniper said:


> Oh, so sorry. What happened?


He got caught in a fence really bad when i was out of town and my fiance found him. He was probably caught in the fence all night and he broke his leg. His bone was sticking out i guess....so our nabour put him down. He was already barried in our pet cemetary when i got home....


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## LauraB

morganshow11 said:


> Im sure all of you think i am an inexperianced rider, but i am NOT. period. I used to have an arabian that was 4, and i was 8. And i could handle him so good, and he was hot. I dont care if all of you think im not an experianced rider but i know i am.


This arrogance is what is causing you half of your problems.


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## Joshie

LauraB said:


> This arrogance is what is causing you half of your problems.


I am pretty sure you'll also be amazed at how much your mom learns between now and when you have a child who is your age.

Look, not one of us is getting anything out of telling you that you and your horse need more training. You are 12. I am sorry but 12 year olds are inexperienced. At your age you do not have the ability to think things through in the same way adults do. 

I've got a headache from banging my head against the wall.


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## iridehorses

Joshie said:


> I've got a headache from banging my head against the wall.


I think most of us do and it's falling on deaf ears so it's become pointless to continue.

I'm sure we all wish Morganshow good luck and be safe.


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