# horse shoes?



## Skippy!

When your friend said the comment about the Baby Horse, are you sure she wasn't trying to be sarcastic?

I would believe them making shoes.. or some sort of clothing/suede stuff out of horse skin over-seas, where slaughter is legal (since i believe "skin" is just waste to them) But in America? Tsk.. =/

Eh.. the things people do to animals. Poor horses =/


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## barnrat

The friend was not being sarcastic at all and to add to that evidently the next day she wore dog shoes...From NY, (may have been made out of America....)


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## bubba13

You know all those horsehair tassels/keychains/bracelets etc. that are made out of braided mane and tail hair? Where do you think the hair came from. Sure not from happy horses--from the slaughterhouses. Same with those tail extensions used in some events.


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## barnrat

Its all cruelty.

(I made my own bracelet.....Just cut a small amount out of my horses tail.... :wink: ) 

 I could not wear it though cuz it gave me hives, I have a minor allergy to horses, Its pretty much gone though, but the bracelet just did not work for me......


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## Skippy!

> Same with those tail extensions used in some events.


Are you sure that those tails come from slaughter horses? I knew of quite a few farms in Los Angeles that purchased non-registered or registered horses that they used as broodmares, or lesson horses, or even pasture pals, but they would keep pristine care of the tail, then cut most of it and sell it to companies who would further clean it and sell it as tail "wigs".

The condition of the hair, and the length of the hair on slaughter horses tails is very poor from the malnutrition. It is brittle and difficult to work with, and also chewed off, or sparse.

That has been my experience though ^^

Wow barnrat.. shoes made from a dog? That's sick. I want to know why people feel the need to slaughter cats, dogs, and horses when we already have VERY good meat sources in Cattle, Swine, and Poultry. We don't need to expand our palette.. what we eat now works fine anyways o_o; (im not a vegetarian, i hope that doesnt offend, lol)

Ugh.. anything for "fashion" though... >____>;; what ever happened to wearing clothes because they like.. hid your naked-ness and kept you warm? Why do we need to skin animals.. mind you, very useful animals, when we have perfectly fine cotton.. *grumps*


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## anni257

...


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## sparky

WHAT!!!!! its still legal in germany!!!!! Hmm...i don't like your system


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## sparky

no offence meant towards you at all anni.


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## anni257

...


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## bubba13

Horse slaughter IS legal in the US. There's a bill coming around about possibly banning it. I hope it doesn't pass.

Now don't jump on me. I hate slaughter and abuse. But where will all the horses go that aren't slaughtered (approximately 80,000 a year are killed). Turned loose to starve, that's where. Totally neglected. Breeding freely. Being abused. Like dogs and cats.

Or transported off to Mexico, where there are aren't any rules about humane treatment. Think that's better? They're still being slaughtered, only cruelly now.

The legislation needs to be about making the process more humane, not banning it. There are simply too many horses in the world and nowhere for them to go.

Look it up. Not on one of those anti-slaughter websites, but on one that really looks at the facts. That's the sad reality of things.

But I have never heard of the hide being used for shoes? That's a new one. And the dog-hair thing I really doubt. It's a big black market in China for dog and cat fur, but the US? If that existed, PETA would be all over it. Unless they're shipping the skins from somewhere else, but still, that's too Cruella DeVille-ish and I find it really hard to swallow.


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## bubba13

http://forum.horsetopia.com/viewtopic.php?t=18299

Read this. Please.


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## barnrat

Bubba you are absolutly right, I have always thought about that, You make it so much clearer! It would be amazing to have humane slaughter, when people watch slaughter videos we only think about getting rid of slaughter all together.


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## mynameisntlola

I absolutely agree with ya bubba, I have done some work with animal police in tha city and we investigated a case o' horse slaughter. Somebody bad been racin a horse on cement and it fell and broke its leg and had some other injuries too. They used a chainsaw >_<, was gruesome, ta kill it and cut it up inta meat. We found out since the people who done it video taped tha whole deal. I won't even say what we found at the crime scene, horrible stuff. And I wish the cases like this were very rare but they are'nt. A galfriend o' mine said she saw sumthin almost exactly like that case on the television jus' tha other day.


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## Gammelquarterhorses

I agree too, I just would never want any of mine to go to slaughter... I will just have to keep them forever (good excuse!!!)


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## kristy

Without slaughter sales, there would be less backyard breeders breeding for auction. There would be no point in raising and putting expense into a horse not eligible for the sale of slaughter. I think you'd be surprised that there WOULD be a decrease in backyard breeding, eliminating a lot of unnecessary deaths because of legal slaughtering.

Did that make sense?


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## barnrat

kind of, I was confused.... :? 

are you for or against horse slaughter kristy?


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## bubba13

Ah...but there's always Mexico, isn't there?

That's right....I'm not sure if it's legal or not to ship horses to Mexico to be slaughtered, but even if it's not, you can always lie and say that they're going there to be sold or raced or whatever. And there's no animal cruelty laws down there.

And where WILL the extra 80,000 horses go?

Plus, the law only deals with slaughter for human consumption, not hide or dog-food or whatever. Heck, maybe we'll go into the dark ages and start making glue from hooves again.


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## Friesian Mirror

If they start that, I'm not using any more glue


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## barnrat

I think thats going a little to far....


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## Friesian Mirror

Maybe.......


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## kristy

Barnrat, I am against slaughter.

Slaughtering and those who sell, breed and buy for slaughter are doing it for some kind of profit. With slaughter being made illegal, there would be (presumably) no market for slaughter. Therefore, the back yard breeders and those that breed and trade horses strictly for slaughter would have no reason in doing so - no market equals no sales. Then why breed live stock for slaughter? There would be no point, therefore, in my eyes, reducing the number of horses meant to be killed each year. The question was where would the 80,000 go? I don't believe there will be 80,000 meant to be killed after banning slaughter.


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## bubba13

The horses aren't being bred specifically FOR slaughter. They are just all the unwanted kid's ponies, crippled Thoroughbreds, sterile broodmares, crazy studs, and old horses that nobody want. Nobody breeds horses (in the US) with the explicit goal of shipping them to the meatpackers..

The fact is, 80,000 horses ARE killed each year in the US for human consumption. That's a lot of horses. And even if slaughter was banned right now, and even assuming that people stopped breeding, it would be 30 years (the life span of a horse) before all of those unwanted horses were phased out.

But people won't stop breeding. It's easy to obtain access to a stud and breed him to your mare to get a cute little foal. If there's no slaughter, fine, just turn him out in the pasture with little grass and no water to starve. It happens already.

With the state of things right now, slaughter is a neccessary evil. None of us our PRO-slaughter. I like to think that we all think it's a cruel practice. Hell, I'm a vegetarian because horses really aren't any different from any other animals, really. (Before you jump on me, yes, I will admit to being a hypocrite--I do love my leather goods. But we're all hypocrites.)

And I repeat--there's always Mexico. Or neglect/abuse. Or shooting ol' Trigger between the eyes.

The glue thing was sarcasm, by the way.


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## barnrat

I personally agree with Kristy....



> Slaughtering and those who sell, breed and buy for slaughter are doing it for some kind of profit. With slaughter being made illegal, there would be (presumably) no market for slaughter. Therefore, the back yard breeders and those that breed and trade horses strictly for slaughter would have no reason in doing so - no market equals no sales. Then why breed live stock for slaughter? There would be no point, therefore, in my eyes, reducing the number of horses meant to be killed each year. The question was where would the 80,000 go? I don't believe there will be 80,000
> meant to be killed after banning slaughter.


I agree, there are people out there that breed for slaughter, its not all unwanted horses. but when there is No market for slaughter horses can always be bred for slaughter to go to mexico (but with the cost of shipping I am sure there wont be much less breeding for slaughter.)



> it would be 30 years (the life span of a horse) before all of those unwanted horses were phased out.


Not that long, Sadly, those horses would not be taken care of like our horses, they would be ill treated most likely and not last 30 years...So whats better Slaughter or abuse? my answer is that Slaughter is abuse. So there is no differance.



> And I repeat--there's always Mexico. Or neglect/abuse. Or shooting ol' Trigger between the eyes.


Mexico would be ruled out because of costs.....
Neglet/abuse happens right know with the slaughter
and the shot between the eyes is WAY more humane then whats happening at the moment.


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## barnrat

slaughter statistics

http://www.savethehorses.com/polls.html


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## bubba13

http://www.avma.org/press/releases/060908_horse_slaughter.asp

That was the first website I pulled up, and my laptop battery isn't going to last much longer so I'm done webcrawling. I'm sure you can google other, better, un-biased sites.

That site was very slanted. Organizations like that one (and PETA, for example) only tell you what they want you to hear.

The fact is, people don't make much of a profit selling horses to slaughter. I have friends going to auctions telling me that nice, beautiful registered colts with impeccable pedigrees are going for between $5 and $200. That sure doesn't cover the stud fee, feed, medical expenses, etc. Slaughterhouses pay, on average, $400 per head. That's half the price of cattle. There's not a lot of money in the American meat trade.

And the costs of going to Mexico or Canada? In a lot of cases, it's probably less than shipping way up north to the current US locations. It's cheaper, too, because there's no need for monitoring by an American agency. Anything goes.

Slaughter is cruel, but at least it's just a few day ride up to the plant, a few hours of utter terror, and then a (usually) quick and (relatively) painless death. Versus years of slow neglect or abuse.

And people aren't responsible. History teaches us that. People won't stop breeding--no, the price of horses will drop even more than it already has and they will be even easier to obtain and breed. Look at all the dogs and cats running around. Soon ponies would be the same. The Humane Society would have to start rounding them up off the streets and euthanizing them.

Maybe that's an exaggerated estimation, but I can certainly see it happening. It's really not that far-fetched.

Look. I don't like it. But I don't see any way around the facts.

Truth be told, however, you'll never change to my side and I'll never consider your view. I could be blatantly wrong and I'll admit that, but I really don't think I am. I don't see the world through rose-colored glasses.

I'm not trying to start a fight or argument, and I'm certainly not casting stones at anyone. Just please consider what I'm saying and, if it comes to that, consider the facts before voting to end equine slaughter in the USA.


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## barnrat

I dont see how people would be able to transport the horses to mexico anyway, I am sure that would Quickly become illegal and hard to cross the border......


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## T-bone

Hello, there, I'm new here but I have been following this thread with interest.

Before I was totally against horse slaughter but I must admit that Bubba has some very good points. I think he's (or she, maybe???) has done some reading on this topic--am I correct? You've changed my mind! And that's hard to do!!

But I'll add my own 2 cents worth. It's already illegal I think to transport horses to Mexico or Canada for the purpuse of slaughter. But it's not illegal to do it for any other reason. So people will lie and do it anyway. It's already happening. Or you can use methods other than trailering to get them across, and thats allowed.

so there's ways to get around it.


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## bubba13

How about that, T-bone? Welcome to the forum. I'm a female, by the way, since you seemed a little confused.

You're right about the transportation to Mexico. People ARE already getting around the rules. That's what people are good at.

Another thing to consider: A good percentage of the horses going to slaughter are ex-racing Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds. Think people are going to stop breeding them? Think again. They've got delusions of big bucks on their minds and they don't give a **** about their "machinery." The horseracing industry is a nasty one indeed.


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## barnrat

I do agree with you on the horse racing, I dont know, but my mind has been changing quite a bit about this topic. Its hard for me to say, yes or no. I would much rather say. I agree with this point, oh but you got a point there. I have always been that way, cant make up my mind on one thing..... :roll: 

Welcome T-bone!


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## T-bone

Thanks for the welcome guys.

I know, Barnrat, there are no black and white areas in life. It's all shades of gray!

T-Bone


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## barnrat

To me it sounds as if Kristy and Bubba have both "done there homework..."


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## rodeobunny

I have always been against slaughter. I don't enjoy hearing the stories about abuse either, but what I've heard about slaughter doesn't make me feel like it's right either. I know it's a possibility that lies have been spread but I'm sure it's not all false. I've seen pictures, as I'm sure we all have. And they haven't portrayed slaughter as a happy ending. We've all heard the stories people can tell and most of the major things in those stories I have seen in these photos. But then again who knows where the photos came from and for that matter how old they are. So really, in my opinion, it's hard to be on one side of the whole slaughter deal.


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## bubba13

Slaughter's nasty. I think we all agree with that.

Of course, you can't believe everything you hear. It's extremely rare for a horse to have its throat slit while it's alive, for example, although it has happened.

But there's no denying that the last few days of the horses lives are full of terror and pain. I hate that.

But I think it's preferable to having a horse starve to death in a field over a six-month period. Or be abused. Or ridden practically (or literally) to death.

In today's society, and until things change drastically (which of course they won't) slaughter is a neccessary evil.


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## rodeobunny

I agree. I think the best thing anyone can do is continue to try to convince people that animal cruelty is wrong before we have any right to attack slaughter houses. Although I personally put no shame on the associations who are fighting for animal rights, which includes making slaughter illegal in the U.S.


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## barnrat

> Slaughter's nasty. I think we all agree with that.
> 
> Of course, you can't believe everything you hear. It's extremely rare for a horse to have its throat slit while it's alive, for example, although it has happened.
> 
> But there's no denying that the last few days of the horses lives are full of terror and pain. I hate that.
> 
> But I think it's preferable to having a horse starve to death in a field over a six-month period. Or be abused. Or ridden practically (or literally) to death.
> 
> In today's society, and until things change drastically (which of course they won't) slaughter is a neccessary evil.


They need to make slaughter more humane...I think alot of people will say that now and then 1 week after that say oh, slaughter needs to go completlely....I think though that It just needs to be more humane.


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## oOJESSOo

its cruel..they eat horse in france


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## barnrat

I think there are much worse things then eating horse...Its just the abuse that gets me.


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## bubba13

....and they eat dogs in China. And they eat kangaroos in Australia. And they eat monkeys in Africa. And they eat cows in the United States.

Is it any different? No. It's all abuse.

Just because the horse is the most romanticized, or the most beautiful, or whatever, doesn't make it any different.

As I have stated from the very beginning, and like Barnrat is backing me up on, the focus needs to be on finding more humane methods of slaughter. For all the reasons I stated in previous post, at this moment in time horse slaughter needs to continue. And even if it is made illegal in the US, it will simply leak into Canada and Mexico where it IS allowed, which is a longer, harder trip on the horses coupled with unregulated methods of killing.

Now is that a solution? I think not.


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## barnrat

Like bubba said, Slaughter will get worse if making it illegal in America...


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## Desert Rat

Where the emphisis needs to be placed here is on responsable breeding practices. This is whats supplying the meat buyers. I've attended horse auctions all over the country and when you go by the meat pen you see animals that no sane equestrian owner would look twice at if they were to purchase an animal for their ownn use. A few are saved by rescue but most of these never amount to much and end up being pasture ornaments.


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## barnrat

> Where the emphisis needs to be placed here is on responsable breeding practices. This is whats supplying the meat buyers. I've attended horse auctions all over the country and when you go by the meat pen you see animals that no sane equestrian owner would look twice at if they were to purchase an animal for their ownn use. A few are saved by rescue but most of these never amount to much and end up being pasture ornaments.


Even so...There still horses and are still being abused... There are lots of people who love to work with hard horses. No matter who they are.


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## rodeobunny

I agree with barnrat. If slaughter was at least more humane half the people that are trying to get rid of it wouldn't think twice about it.


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## jumpingqueen

Both of my horses, are shoed, they jump just about every day!


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## jumpingqueen

btw welcome to the forum! I am new here too!


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## Desert Rat

My wife has been braiding horse hair for years and does some beautiful work. But its all mane and tail hair. Years ago we used to run a lot of Mexican cattle in the feed lots and I supose they still do. Every criter that came in had the tail hair bobed off. The craftsmen down there used it for rietas and other hair projects. We got a lot of calves in that didn't have any tails at all. these were all bitten off by coyotes.


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## - Skye -

> And they eat kangaroos in Australia


I dont want to start an argument here, but eating roo here doesnt really occur as much as people from other countries may think...compared to cow eatin' in the US and dog eating in China...Roo is actually quite disgusting, and has a horribly strong meat smell - i know that some aboriginal ringers eat roo, and others try it as a one off...but its not a 'religious' thing. I beleive we eat steak like crazy though - i know i do

BTW, i agree with Bubba on the slaughter issue - its horrible to think it happens, but id rather think of them in that situation then fending for themselves - everyone for there own i guess.

Tally-Ho!


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## desperate horsewife

I happen to support horse slaughter in the US for all the reasons Bubba has listed. 

Stopping slaughter won't stop abuse. I think abuse will increase, quite truthfully. Already there are reports of people turning unwanted animals loose. The animal shelters will soon be full of horses, just like cats and dogs. And where then do they go? They're euthanized and sent to a rendering plant and turned into cat and dog food. Why is it okay for cats and dogs to eat them, but not people? 

Here in the western US, the wild horse herds run the risk of being 'invaded' by domestics that people will undoubtedly turn out. In turn, that will cause greater stress on the environment and more tax payer dollars to support them. Which I find rather ironic, as Senator Burns from Montana slipped his little rider in which would have enabled wild horses to be sent to slaughter. It caused such an uproar (and he was voted out of office) that the wild horse community is largely supporting the ban on slaughter in an effort to save the mustangs. Now Mr. Burns will have twice as many horses to contend with should the ban pass.

No, the solution is more independently owned slaughter houses instead of banning them. Like I bring the lambs to, or the pigs. Places where you know things will be done swiftly and correctly, with little stress to the animal. It's unfortunate that it costs so much to euthanize a horse. At least sending an old one to become burger will be a swift end and feed a hungry mouth.

Baby horse shoes? I'd say it was unlikely, but then again, perhaps it was a PMU foal? Never know what some twisted folks are doing out there (not illegal to turn horses into clothing, is it?)


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