# Cinny's new lunge set up



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Here is a video of Cinny working the new set up that my new trainer suggested. For those of you who really hated my last set up, does this look better?

He can stretch his head all the way and drag his nose on the ground, the reins aren't tight, he looks to me like he is starting to relax more as he warms up. He just can't strut around with the head and neck set of a llama but it isn't really yanking on him. It may be me but sometimes I think I see his back lengthening and it appears he is occasionally trying to push through his haunches but it could just be that I want to see it so badly.

Anyway, comments and suggestions are welcome. In this video Cinny is joined but one of his barn buddies so you may see her towards the end


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Just bumping back up  OH, and please don't laugh at the tail, I attempted my first "Dressage tail pull" thinking that if I botched it up he would have time to grow it out a little LOL>


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You are not going to get him to use himself correctly unless you have him going _forward._
He is jogging around with his hocks in the last county and nowhere near tracking up at both the walk and the trot. 
At the walk his hind foot should over track where the front foot has been and at the trot his hind foot should land where the front foot has been - he is several inches off doing either. 

I would work him at a far more active pace and I would also use two lines, one going behind him to encourage him to bring his hocks under him. Only when the hocks are engaged will he become active in his back.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

i agree with foxhunter; cinny is moving at a lazy sunday ride in the park pace and putting out no effort at all. once he's moving forward and WORKING some then the back will start to stretch and he'll swing from behind towards a nice round circle of energy (hind legs over back to neck/head and recycled to the hind again).


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Cinny's so handsome. Tail looks good from what I can see.

And, from where I'm from, it's not November 2012 yet. ;-)


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

i went back and watched the lunge video from august. this surcingle and side reins set up is much better than it was in the august video but he's moving just the same. he has move freedom to move out/forward now - ask him to do so!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you and yes, I agree I need to get him moving. I guess I baby him too much when I give him new set ups and give him a week or more to get used to it before really pushing him. He's spoiled LOL.

Oh, and apparently eve the kitten thought he should get moving LOL


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

He is often breaking over at the poll correctly. When he brings his hindquarters under which elevates his back, the rest of his body should create that nice rounded look. Have you thought about lunging him with just a rope around his neck to allow him move freedom. He will have nothing to resist against.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

I agree you must have him more forward, he looks really good and like he's understanding it but once you get him pushing more from his HQ he will be able to easier reach through and stretch down Ito hi happy spot more consistantly for you! Once you get that work on your transitions and make sure he I listening to your body language and voice, click or forward in any gate kiss for canter cue. Lots of praise and keep up the good work! 
Look forward to more videos of both your improvement, give yourself a pat on the back your doing a great job!


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Okay, I guess I just don't like static straps. He looks cramped to me, which would discourage forward movement. I know, the straps are loose, but they seem to be having a dampening effect; otherwise, don't appear to be doing anything.

I admit I don't care for lunging. I do it, (just a halter) but never more than 2 or 3 circles at a time. I'll jog along the side, take up another circle, make it smaller, spiral it out, change gaits, jog another length---maybe that's why I don't like it, I get pretty tired!

But it's more fun, and you can set up jumps, or obstacles, and in the meantime, I believe it gets a horse using his body more, getting interested, by stretching, compressing, rebalancing. (Did I mention frequent treats?:wink


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What I want to know is...who was elected President a few weeks before this video was taken?

Seriously, I'm not a dressage person, but it seems it would be easier to teach him to engage when you are in the saddle than from the ground.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

BSMS-
everything you teach the horse (or almost) should be started on the ground, safety reasons as well as its a fair thing to do to any horse for them to better understand what you are asking and to see how they move rather then just "feel" This helps build op their confidance as well  
These two havea had somewhat of a rough year of problem solving and set backs and now are on a great start and her new trainer wanted her to start on the ground to help Ciny trust this new way of working and het gis own confidance up to create a Fun working atmosphere to give room for progression  I can see where I might think it would be eaiser to get a horse to move forward from riding raher then on the ground and some horses that works great for! every horse is different  I dont mean to make you sound like you dont know much or anything as I dont know you or what you know but just trying to politey explan why she is approaching it this way. hope I didnt step on any toes!!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't know the whole history behind this, but... if you do not know how to properly lunge a horse, why are you teaching a horse to lunge?

"Babying him" to get used to the new set up is not going to do anything but teach him he is allowed to drag his heels, not track up and eventually end up as a peanut roller.

Side reins are a waste of time. If you use anything use the Pessoa system. And make him move forward. Don't let him plop around at a painfully slow incorrect trot. Make him move up and into the contact, make him use himself. Make him MOVE. An "adjustment period" is just going to teach him he doesn't need to work.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Klassic Superstar said:


> BSMS-
> everything you teach the horse (or almost) should be started on the ground, safety reasons as well as its a fair thing to do to any horse for them to better understand what you are asking and to see how they move rather then just "feel" This helps build op their confidance as well
> These two havea had somewhat of a rough year of problem solving and set backs and now are on a great start and her new trainer wanted her to start on the ground to help Ciny trust this new way of working and het gis own confidance up to create a Fun working atmosphere to give room for progression  I can see where I might think it would be eaiser to get a horse to move forward from riding raher then on the ground and some horses that works great for! every horse is different  I dont mean to make you sound like you dont know much or anything as I dont know you or what you know but just trying to politey explan why she is approaching it this way. hope I didnt step on any toes!!


I know this post wasn't directed to me, however thank you for explaining. I should have went back and read a bit of the history.

However I still stand behind my comment that he needs to learn forward. Babying him through a transition such as learning to use himself is not going to go anywhere.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There are a lot of things a horse can learn from the ground. I'm not convinced that engaging from the rear and lifting the rider's weight is one of those things...but a lot of folks try it. I'm not a trainer or instructor, I don't show or compete in anything. I did try riding a small, green broke Arabian. I found that if I asked her to just go faster, she got strung out. If I asked her to go faster but not get strung out, and shifted MY weight to the rear while trying to put as little pressure on the saddle as possible, it helped.

With the mare I kept, Mia, I find it easier to help her balance from the saddle than from the ground. But that is a sample size of two horses, which isn't much. On the bright side, I'm not charging anyone for my opinion, so it is worth every penny spent on it...


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Like the other said, I'd like to see him moving more forward before forming an opinion on the new setup. It does seem to be an improvement, but I can relate to what Beling is saying. It till seems to be "bottling him up" to me, but I am not a sidereins fan either.

There's been mention of the pessoa system - I have a huge problem with that contraption. While I'm not fully convinced that there is a "correct" way to use it that actually encourages proper movement, it is a tool like any other and I certainly won't condemn others for choosing to use it. If you do consider using it on Cinny (I personally wouldn't) then make sure you are an expert on the device before doing so.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Gremmy said:


> There's been mention of the pessoa system - I have a huge problem with that contraption. While I'm not fully convinced that there is a "correct" way to use it that actually encourages proper movement, it is a tool like any other and I certainly won't condemn others for choosing to use it. If you do consider using it on Cinny (I personally wouldn't) then* make sure you are an expert on the device before doing so*.


Which is why I said that you should not be lunging a horse for schooling without knowing how to do so. I cringe when I see people lunging using aids without knowing how to properly use them.

I have used the pessoa system with huge success. However I have been trained in its use, including taking a clinic on how to properly use it. But the debate on aids can go for thousands of pages. Its just like the draw reins debate.

What I hate about side reins is the encourage BTV. They solve nothing. They are useless. But I am also from the mind of a standing martingale being the stupidest and most useless piece of equipment ever invented lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Actually, the only change in tack I would suggest is not a pessoa. I would suggest a cavesson. To me, looking at this video and many others of Cinny, I see a horse that is not willing to go into contact for lots of reasons which don't need to be rehashed. I would leave the side reins on, but very long, like they are. However, I would put the lunge line onto a cavesson instead of the bit. Lunging is a really difficult thing to master, so don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like you are having a bit of trouble keeping the contact on the line consistent. So by using a cavesson instead, you can let him work out the contact with the side reins himself without any accidental change from you. 

I would also have him pushing faster, and I would ignore those who don't like lunging. They are entitled to their opinion on the matter, but in this case, it is not the thread for it. Cinny did not ask "should I lunge my horse" folks. Lunging can and does encourage the horse to lift their back and work through correctly when it is done correctly. All the proof you need is to look at the hours that the Spanish riding school spends lunging.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

Yes yes! Love that place was just there and love all the work they do with their horses!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

My issue with this setup (and side reins in general) is that many horses learn to duck behind the vertical because the reins bounce on their mouth constantly. I think this may be Cinny's problem; the reins bounce on his sensitive mouth and he starts wondering WHY the reins are never quiet, and can't find WHERE he's supposed to be because the reins are never quiet. There's never any true "YES! You've GOT it right NOW!" release. 
Beyond that, he needs to step UP and quit doing that little pony jig. You need to get after him to stop worrying so much about his face (hard to do when it's constantly getting yanked, I'll give him that) and start worrying about moving out. 
Have you ever heard of Vienna side reins?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I LOVE lunging. 

Cinny can you get any lessons from your trainer on how to properly lunge a horse? I honestly believe every horse person should have proper training on how to correctly lunge. Not just clipping a rope to a halter and chasing them in circles. But teaching them to work and use themselves. 

I didn't notice that you were clipping the line to the bit. I agree with using a cavesson.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JustDressageIt said:


> My issue with this setup (and side reins in general) is that many horses learn to duck behind the vertical because the reins bounce on their mouth constantly. I think this may be Cinny's problem; the reins bounce on his sensitive mouth and he starts wondering WHY the reins are never quiet, and can't find WHERE he's supposed to be because the reins are never quiet. There's never any true "YES! You've GOT it right NOW!" release.
> Beyond that, he needs to step UP and quit doing that little pony jig. You need to get after him to stop worrying so much about his face (hard to do when it's constantly getting yanked, I'll give him that) and start worrying about moving out.
> Have you ever heard of Vienna side reins?


Agree 100% with this post.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Skip the side reins and learn how to two rein lunge your horse (ie. ground driving/long lining in big circles....similar to single line lunging but two lines)
That's way, YOU are in direct contact with his mouth and can manage his body better by driving him up into the bit from behind while applying pressure and releasing..........this way he gets a break from constant bit niggling from side reins......After learning how to drive/two rein performance horses properly and doing it A LOT I would never bother to use side reins again....the are ineffective IMHO.....because they offer no true release......


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay, there seems to be a LOT of confusion regarding what is going on here. I'll see if I can explain a bit. And yes, as I mentioned in the OP, I am under the guidance of a competent trainer.

Cinny's normal carriage be it under saddle, in his paddock or on the lunge with just a halter is to prance around with his back hollowed and his head and neck straight up like a Llama. I am not exaggerating, his neck will be in a straight vertical with his head high, just like a llama does. 

I AM currently in the care of a competent Dressage trainer. She has successfully retrained OTTB's as well as rescue horses (mostly morgans) and brought them through training Level very successfully with willingness, as well as the horse being relaxed and supple. This is the setup she has suggested to help Cinny learn that yes he can relax and be more effective if he carries his head a bit lower and that he doesn't have to have it straight up in the air.

We also want to encourage the use of his back and hind at some point but first he has to learn not to fight to keep his head in the clouds.

The side reins are elastic and stretchy like a bungie, not as stiff as normal elastic side reins. I have been instructed to spend the first week getting him used to having a lower head. This uses muscles he is not used to using and makes him a little sore. He then gets a massages which he loves. When he stops getting as sore then will will begin pushing him into his normal forwardness, however my trainer says that as he gets more comfortable and confident having his head out of the clouds, he will most likely begin moving forward on his own.

This is combined with other exercises directed at building topline, confidence and self carriage. His feed, supplements, everything has been combed through and readjusted to fit our goals for next year right down to every pellet of Strategy. There are a lot of aspects going on to building both Cinny and I up.

While Cinny is going through his changes, I am going through mine on some very nice lesson horses that have a LOT to teach and who themselves have gone through the process as well as the levels in shows. I am learning how to get a horse properly motored from behind and what it feels like when you succeed. My seat is being taken apart and put back together again piece by piece. I have bruises and sore muscles and have had to invest in a large bottle of Advil. 

So you see, this is only a small piece of what is happening. A few months ago I posted a video of what I was doing and it was a very bad setup and a lot of people gave me a lot of advice, and a lot of it was hard to recieve. I immediately stopped what I was doing and spent a few months seeking the help of a GOOD professional. She is an hour away, but well worth it. I want to show my critics from before that I did pay attention, and I did change what I was doing and I did get help


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Cinny, yes the side reins are in the ideal LOCATION to ask a horse to stretch down, HOWEVER I am not confident that traditional side reins are helping Cinny at all right now. He's ducking behind the vertical because the reins are popping him in the mouth every.single.step. He doesn't know where he should be because of this.
Traditional side reins work for some horses.. not all. Especially not sensitive mouthed horses, or horses that are new to the game who don't know where their heads should be. These horses need an immediate release signalling "YES, that is where you need to be." Side reins cannot accomplish that. They have no give except the slight stretch of the elastic. 
He's mincing his steps because he's confused about the rein saying (as far as he knows what rein means) "stop.stop.stop.stop.stop.stop." every time it bounces - he doesn't know that it means "round into a frame and reach into your bit."


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JustDressageIt hit the nail on the head. The side reins are not promoting him to keep his head down. They are punishing him. He needs to be rewarded for bringing his head down. Getting bumped in the mouth is not giving him that reward. Which is where we run into the issue of horses becoming BTV. Which is going to open a whole new can of issues.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I just re-watched the video and watched his whole body move. He's not engaged through the hind end whatsoever; he's worried about his face and where his head should be (and not receiving any sort of message saying "yes, that's correct") - and he's really mincing his steps. One of the foundations of correct Dressage training is to get IMPULSION - it's a critical thing to have. You want to see Cinny lengthen out his stride and track up - that means that as he's trotting, his hind hooves should hit the track that his front hooves left. You want to see his hind end start to swing - right now he's very tense and holding his back hollow, even while he's trying to put his head in the right place. 
I strongly suggest you ditch the side reins for now and focus on impulsion and bend; getting him to round through the ribcage and back. 

Once the back is correct, the neck (head) will be correct.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Cinny, yes the side reins are in the ideal LOCATION to ask a horse to stretch down, HOWEVER I am not confident that traditional side reins are helping Cinny at all right now. He's ducking behind the vertical because the reins are popping him in the mouth every.single.step. He doesn't know where he should be because of this.
> Traditional side reins work for some horses.. not all. Especially not sensitive mouthed horses, or horses that are new to the game who don't know where their heads should be. These horses need an immediate release signalling "YES, that is where you need to be." Side reins cannot accomplish that. They have no give except the slight stretch of the elastic.
> He's mincing his steps because he's confused about the rein saying (as far as he knows what rein means) "stop.stop.stop.stop.stop.stop." every time it bounces - he doesn't know that it means "round into a frame and reach into your bit."


I would completely agree with you if these were traditional elastic side reins, but as I said above they are not traditional side reins, they are reins that belong to my trainer and they have a LOT more stretch than traditional side reins as they were custom made by her old trainer in Germany, you just can't see the stretch in the video as he isn't really fighting them or trying anymore to assume his Llama position. Think of those exercise bands people use, they are really stretchy like the really week ones. Kind of hard to explain.

It doesn't look like it from the video but he can easily stretch them way out, he can even put his head in his favorite Llama position if he so chooses, and he did the first day. It's just harder to keep it there because he is fighting the stretchy reins and his own body.

As for not knowing it's correct, there are other ways that he knows when he's dong right, especially by voice. He is really "voice praise" motivated. As for impulsion, my trainer says that is for another time. She wants to fix the Llama issue first as he can not properly get impulsion if his head is in the clouds and his back is hollowed. 

This is how she explained it. Think of weight training. When you get a trainer they don't start out having you heave big amounts of weight as much as you can, however you can. First they teach you form, how to hold you body so that you don't injure yourself, etc. Once you get the correct way to do it, then you push yourself and it's easier when you start out correct because otherwise you get injured or when you do learn the correct way, it's almost like starting all over again because you have to go back down to lower weights to get used to the movement of doing it correctly. She wants Cinny to be a little more correct and use his back end more before pushing him forward and working on impulsion.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Cinnys, I think JDI is referring to the constant 'bumping' he's receiving from the reins, not the reins or their position themselves.....it's the action of the reins.. I'm going to watch the video again.

I really think you'd achieve a lot by two reining/driving this horse in large circles.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

In my opinion, the reins aren't "bumping" him, they are swinging with his movement because they are lightweight, but not "bumping". Maybe it can't be seen in the video but they swing left and right as he moves not up and down.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok, just watched the video again.....as light and stretchy as the side reins are, I can see them bumping him. Also....just of note....has your horse been chiro checked? I didn't see your prior thread, so my apologies if you've already answered this..... But it looked to me that he was very stiff through his pelvis, stifle and hock.......


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> Ok, just watched the video again.....as light and stretchy as the side reins are, I can see them bumping him. Also....just of note....has your horse been chiro checked? I didn't see your prior thread, so my apologies if you've already answered this..... But it looked to me that he was very stiff through his pelvis, stifle and hock.......


Yes, he does get chiro regularly. He has on and off issues with his sacroiliac joint since I bought him 2 years ago (he's only been under saddle since I bought him and was a pasture puff before that). This is another reason my trainer wants to get his head out of the clouds as she says it adds too the issue. We need to slowly get him moving in a way that will begin to strengthen that area instead of letting him avoid using that portion of his body and cause it to remain weak. My vet/Chiro agrees.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

CW, the reins are swinging and bumping his mouth - anything with any sort of weight can swing and bump the mouth if there's enough material to gather any sort of momentum. With a sensitive horse, or a horse that doesn't know how to work INTO a bit, traditional side reins (traditional as in attach at bit and girth) can work against your goals, not with them. Traditional side reins cannot feel when the horse is rounding, and give the reward release to say YES YOU ARE CORRECT. This is imperative for horses like Cinny. 
You can see him in that video - The reins are jiggling up and down, Cinny is sucking back through his stride, and bumping his head all around trying to find a place where he's *supposed* to be, but he gets NO reward no matter where his head is. And his back is *still hollow.* The side reins aren't doing him a lick of good at the moment.  The side reins are making his head go down. They are not encouraging his hind end to work under him, or for him to engage and lift his back - which is what should be your #1 priority right now - engagement through the hind end, and mobility through the rib cage. The head will become correct when the body is correct. 
If you want to use side reins, I much prefer Vienna style side reins:








Bonus points if they're made of stretchy elastic. This allows the horse's nose to travel along the arc, without the constant nagging of a jiggling traditional side rein. I find that it really does make a difference. I made my own by buying super stretchy elastic bungee cord by the meter at the hardware store.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, 
I don't know squat about lunging in side reins. Havne't done it in years.

However, I wonder about a whole different approach to building suppleness in this horse; lateral work and disengagement of the hindquarters. Buch Branaman says you cannot do too many of them.

Check out this article and let me see if I can find a good video that shows what I mean.

Horse Training Articles: Riding Basics - Suppleness


I guess waht I meant was doing things that cause the horse to step well under himself, as he would in a disengagement of the hindquarters, might help supple his pelvis and back.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

u


JustDressageIt said:


> CW, the reins are swinging and bumping his mouth - anything with any sort of weight can swing and bump the mouth if there's enough material to gather any sort of momentum. With a sensitive horse, or a horse that doesn't know how to work INTO a bit, traditional side reins (traditional as in attach at bit and girth) can work against your goals, not with them. Traditional side reins cannot feel when the horse is rounding, and give the reward release to say YES YOU ARE CORRECT. This is imperative for horses like Cinny.
> You can see him in that video - The reins are jiggling up and down, Cinny is sucking back through his stride, and bumping his head all around trying to find a place where he's *supposed* to be, but he gets NO reward no matter where his head is. And his back is *still hollow.* The side reins aren't doing him a lick of good at the moment.  The side reins are making his head go down. They are not encouraging his hind end to work under him, or for him to engage and lift his back - which is what should be your #1 priority right now - engagement through the hind end, and mobility through the rib cage. The head will become correct when the body is correct.
> If you want to use side reins, I much prefer Vienna style side reins:
> 
> ...


I agree with you that this setup is not doing what you believe to be my trainers current goal. I think you and my trainer disagree on what the current goal should be right now. I I have searched long for a good trainer and did a lot of research as well as trial lessons and interviews. I I really believe in this trainer and her growing waiting list tells me that others do too. I agree with you that proper frame and headset will come later and that is not what we are working on even though it would seem like it from the video. 

The goal is to stop the llama head because until we stop it he will continue to have sacroiliac issues (according to my vet and I chiro) can and can not possibly attempt to use his hind for impulsion as it's anatomically impossible for him to do. This is work toward the 2nd step in the training pyramid, relaxation so that we are an then move into connection. With getting him out of the llama head habit, which tenses his neck, shoulders, back and hips, he can then start to relax. This is the goal of our current lunge exercise.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What it seems to me, that you are not understanding. is that all action comes from the back end of the horse. 
_Until he is using his hocks by bringing them under him, he will not be using his back._
Lunging with the rein attached as you have is a fairly tough way of control because you are on the mouth the whole time. Far better to use a lunge caveson and control from the front of the nose.

Watch the horse and see how, despite not having side reins on, he is bringing his hocks under him. At the trot watch how his tail is swinging which shows he is using his back. He is tracking up all the time. 





Then watch this one with a Pessoa on, the horse is much more active because of the part of the kit around his back legs. There are times when he raises his head but soon lowers and becomes more active.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What it seems to me, that you are not understanding. is that all action comes from the back end of the horse. 
_Until he is using his hocks by bringing them under him, he will not be using his back._
Lunging with the rein attached as you have is a fairly tough way of control because you are on the mouth the whole time. Far better to use a lunge caveson and control from the front of the nose.

Watch the horse and see how, despite not having side reins on, he is bringing his hocks under him. At the trot watch how his tail is swinging which shows he is using his back. He is tracking up all the time. 





Then watch this one with a Pessoa on, the horse is much more active because of the part of the kit around his back legs. There are times when he raises his head but soon lowers and becomes more active.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Best of luck to you, Cinny  I really do hope everything works out for you two. His back is still hollow, for what it's worth - his head is being brought down, but he's hollow behind, and mincing his steps through the hind end. Once again, I really think that the Vienna reins would work better for your situation. 

I as I understand it, you're happy with the way things are going and do not want any conflicting input. I'll quit replying. Good luck to you and Cinny.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

Fallow your gut and keep going on what you feel is best Cinny! That all you can do! Baby steps are great! I completly see where you are coming from 
Good luck to you! Sending you and Cinny good postive vibes and look forward to more progress and pictures! Your a great horse mom!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Two cents here:

I actually like this setup. However the horse needs to go far more forward. I think at this point you need to stop changing things willy nilly and just stick with one thing. From what I've seen, this seems to be the best setup you've had for him, he just needs to go far, far more forward. 

Stick with it, work with your new trainer and see what happens. Remember that horses live in the moment and if you push him forward he will not hold it against you. Lunge him with the goal always of creating a forward horse, into the contact. I think as he goes forward more, the slack in the draws will eventually lessen and lessen until he holds a contact comfortably.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

JDI, It's not that I don't want input, or advice, in fact I value the advice of so many people on here. It creates more thinking, more research on my part, and more questions to my trainer, which she appreciates. Though she is a good horse person, has gone through he levels, trained with a great horseperson in Germany and has brought up some great horses as well as turned around rescues and OTTB's who have also moved through the levels (she is currently bringing a horse she trained from infancy through upper FEI levels), she has just now started giving lessons to actual humans. Therefore she enjoys the questions, different perspectives and trying to change her way of communication from what horses understand to what humans understand and then teach them to understand the horse. Does that make sense, I think I twisted something around. 

At any rate, I am on a constant quest for knowledge including different angles of how to get things done. Do people here see things differently than I or my trainer do in person? Yes. But that's part of it. The good part is, that all of you spark more research and questions.

I have spent the morning seeking answers to the whole "forward" versus "impulsion" element of Dressage riding and I am finding that first and foremost (in classic dressage anyway) they are two different things. Sigh...there is where part of my confusion is right there. And Wednesday I am going to talk to my trainer about putting that in my "goal list." We have a list of goals and mini goals that I need to achieve and they have been put in the appropriate learning order (I did have some backwards and J straightened them out). I think this is a big one and I am curious to see which of my little mini goals I still have to do before working on correct forwardness as I am sure I still have a LOT more "seat" issues to work out first so that I am not blocking forwardness and impulsion.

I found a really great article Allowing Forward Motion | Dressage Daily That made a LOT of sense to me. There was one part that really hit home in regards to my entire journey with Cinny and I think maybe I need to print it and frame it and make myself read it every day before I ride.



> Going back to our basic question—is it the horse or is it the rider—how do we decide in that split second whether to enforce our aids or not? When we teach horses new things, we first figure out a way to show them what we want. When they understand what we are showing them, then we can ask them to do it. When we are sure they completely understand what we are asking, we can tell them to do it. Only when we are absolutely sure the horse completely understands the question can we enforce with an artificial aid like the whip without confusing him.
> 
> So when that basic question comes up, ask yourself how far along you are in mastering the six riding skill levels. Until you reach the level of being able to influence a horse consistently, the default answer to the question is generally that the communication breakdown is on the rider's side, not the horse's side. Even then, the question never completely goes away. This is just one of the things that makes riding a lifelong learning process.


The question I need to ask myself every time I ride is "Does Cinny understand what I am asking him to do?" Generally the answer is currently no except for a LOT of basics. So then I need to go to my trainer and have her help me to communicate in a way that he understands as well as teach HIM the vocabulary, so to speak. Currently I do not know how to properly ask for forwardness or impulsion be it on the ground or in the saddle. How can I expect him to be forward and have impulsion when I can't even ask him? Right now it's like having a forein exchange student who speaks no english and trying to explain where the bathroom is when you can't physically take them by the hand and show them. When I am lunging and I use the dressage whip to encourage him to move he will go faster but this doesn't necessarily mean he is being forward or moving with impulsion it simply means he is going faster. 

I have so so much to learn.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> CW, the reins are swinging and bumping his mouth - anything with any sort of weight can swing and bump the mouth if there's enough material to gather any sort of momentum. With a sensitive horse, or a horse that doesn't know how to work INTO a bit, traditional side reins (traditional as in attach at bit and girth) can work against your goals, not with them. Traditional side reins cannot feel when the horse is rounding, and give the reward release to say YES YOU ARE CORRECT. This is imperative for horses like Cinny.
> You can see him in that video - The reins are jiggling up and down, Cinny is sucking back through his stride, and bumping his head all around trying to find a place where he's *supposed* to be, but he gets NO reward no matter where his head is. And his back is *still hollow.* The side reins aren't doing him a lick of good at the moment.  The side reins are making his head go down. They are not encouraging his hind end to work under him, or for him to engage and lift his back - which is what should be your #1 priority right now - engagement through the hind end, and mobility through the rib cage. The head will become correct when the body is correct.
> If you want to use side reins, I much prefer Vienna style side reins:
> 
> ...


Can you give more detail into how you made them and how they are set up. Is it once continuous rein run from surcingle to bit to girth then back up the other side or is it 2 reins? What is the approximate length of bungee you need? My TB has a habit of going BTV with side reins but has a giraffe head without them, I had been looking for Vienna side reins to try but only ones I can find are insanely expensive.

CW, I saw you said you are feeding strategy, If I remember correctly Cinny had ulcers in the past right? Strategy made my mares ulcers flare up really badly because of the high starch content so keep in eye out for reoccurring ulcer symptoms. I know every horse is different but that feed has made me so paranoid with ulcer prone horses.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Rachel1786 said:


> CW, I saw you said you are feeding strategy, If I remember correctly Cinny had ulcers in the past right? Strategy made my mares ulcers flare up really badly because of the high starch content so keep in eye out for reoccurring ulcer symptoms. I know every horse is different but that feed has made me so paranoid with ulcer prone horses.


Yes I do and thank you for the heads up, but it's not the every day strategy it's the Strategy Healthy Edge Purina Horse Feeds - STRATEGY which has a different composition and none of the local stores sell it even though they sell the regular strategy, I actually have to drive 45 minutes to the Farmers Co Op to get it. He also gets SmartGut, Smart Bug-Off, and my trainer now has me giving him SmartMuscle Mass as well. His hay is free choice prairie grass mix in a slow feeder like this The NIBBLENET ® Slow Feeder Hay Bags - thenibblenet.com - Official website of The NIBBLENET ® Slow feeder Hay Bag - Slow Feed Hay Bags for Horses And during the day when he is turned out with his buddy they have free choice munching from a round bale of prairie mix in the winter and grazing when there is grass to graze. 

I haven't noticed any signs of him having sensitivity to what he is having. I know before when he was bad, if you nudged his flanks they would be rock solid like a brick wall. Now they jiggle like jello even after work. My vet taught me the sensitivity points to watch for and I check him before and after every ride.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

They're two separate reins; you attach one end high, run it through the bit, and attach the other end low. I made mine to measure with my horse; I just bought 30' bulk and cut to size, with room to adjust the knot, and attached snaps on the ends. 

CW, my concern is that you're worrying about headset now, when your primary concern should be just getting Cinny to move forwards. Again, I hope you are happy with the way things are going with your new trainer, it sounds like you have a lot of respect for that individual.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> CW, my concern is that you're worrying about headset now, when your primary concern should be just getting Cinny to move forwards. Again, I hope you are happy with the way things are going with your new trainer, it sounds like you have a lot of respect for that individual.


Thank you. I agree about the moving forward. We aren't working on actual "head set" persay as it doesn't really matter if his nose is out, or it's up a little, or down dragging on the ground etc, she just wants the head out of the clouds so that he is no longer "leading with his chest as moving this way won't allow him to do anything more forward except maybe crow hop and pronc around. I just can't quite put it into words...but we aren't going for head set at all.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

CW, I'm really impressed by your efforts to understand, and the willingness to keep learning, and all the different angles you're coming from---nutrition, massage-- you're the kind of owner I admire!

My horse was--is-- fairly high-headed, not so much as yours, though. I KNEW that it made her back hurt; and the soreness made her brace even more. But I found, as some others have noted, it's really, really hard to get a horse to stretch down, and "lift weight" when there's no weight there to lift. You can get the head in, and even down, but how do you get the back to round? Of course, some breeds find this quite easy. Others do NOT. Moving forward briskly is one way. Uneven, trappy ground, which requires a lot of balancing (after tripping, perhaps!) is another.

It's the same with contact: if your horse evades contact with the bit, it doesn't matter how stretchy the reins are. I spent a good deal of time on the ground, simply getting contact with the bit using my hands, and asking my horse to lower her head; then a release and maybe a treat. Sounds simple, but her initial response was to raise her head, always. It took time. . .Eventually she'd lower her head to the ground (and maybe find a carrot there!) She did not learn to do this under saddle; however, she DID lose her fear of the contact, so I could then proceed as normal.

Which is why I'm writing, just to encourage you to keep at it.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I highly recommend this:





Very valuable skill to have.....


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Muppet, that is a skill that I very much want to learn, but I do not currently know how to do it properly, nor do I possess the ability to determine weather or not my horse is going properly forward, using impulsion, etc. This is why I have a trainer right now, and why we aren't pushing Cin when J is no there and only doing what she has instructed me to do.

As for cavelletti...I LOVE LOVE LOVE them. One of my goals is to make up a set of my own. We have some at my current barn, however they are in my opinion dangerous because they are only lengths of pvc pipe that go flying with barely a nick of a hoof. My BO thinks they are fine, I think they are an accident waiting to happen especially when used for jump rails.. I have been keeping my eye out for more acceptable poles even if I have to completely sand and redo them myself.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Learn to double lunge on a well schooled horse, and keep practicing it if you can....get Cinny started on it with your trainer first....then have a go at it....I really really really do recommend it! A very worth while skill to have.......it actually seems to me that not a lot of people know how to do it and do it well....perhaps it's more of a European thing? 
I was fortunate to be taught to do it well from a very skilled horseman in Australasia.
Heck, I'm going to do it with my reining horse, just for the fun of it!!!


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

If I hadn't watched many of the videos Cinny has put up and knew how the horse went, I'd agree that the horse in the OP here simply needs to go forward. But given that this horse has a history of stiffening and bracing, I would probably look to release the brace before driving the horse forward. 

So I think I understand what Cinny and her trainer are trying to do and would probably do the same thing myself if I had a horse like this. It seems to me that the standard dressage training approach of using movement -- creating balance through forward momentum into contact -- is perhaps not what Cinny needs. I think if she just sent the horse forward, he would just stiffen and star-gaze some more because it has become such an ingrained habit. Rather, developing relaxation, acceptance of the contact, and flexion (both longitudinal and lateral) and _then _developing movement might help him more. Tinyliny mentioned Buck Brannaman, who will work a horse in this manner, as do some dressage folk who train in the French tradition. It is a legitimate approach to training a horse.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

thesilverspear said:


> If I hadn't watched many of the videos Cinny has put up and knew how the horse went, I'd agree that the horse in the OP here simply needs to go forward. But given that this horse has a history of stiffening and bracing, I would probably look to release the brace before driving the horse forward.
> 
> So I think I understand what Cinny and her trainer are trying to do and would probably do the same thing myself if I had a horse like this. It seems to me that the standard dressage training approach of using movement -- creating balance through forward momentum into contact -- is perhaps not what Cinny needs. I think if she just sent the horse forward, he would just stiffen and star-gaze some more because it has become such an ingrained habit. Rather, developing relaxation, acceptance of the contact, and flexion (both longitudinal and lateral) and _then _developing movement might help him more. Tinyliny mentioned Buck Brannaman, who will work a horse in this manner, as do some dressage folk who train in the French tradition. It is a legitimate approach to training a horse.


Wow, I think you head the nail on the head. He DOES in fact brace and stargze more when when try to push him more forward. I'll have to look for the vids from the day I got him as from the time he is off the trailer and into his paddock is is braced with his head and tail in the air and is back arched. It's been a very long path with this horse. 

One thing that does make him relax and get supple is lateral work. For some reason he loves it and I have learned that if I keep leg on him in a way that makes him THINK we might make a lateral move, he relaxes his shoulders and goes into the bridle in preparation for it. This is what gives me hope.

On a lighter note, we have a FREE western dressage clinic coming up at the event center next to my stable so I have signed us up for it. I love fresh views and a few people think Cinny might be more suited to Western Dressage, however I really don't see the difference besides tack and attire...but that's why I'm going to the clinic, to learn about it


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

There is a very educational -- but long -- thread at the Chronicle of the Horse forum on French dressage techniques. One of the tools in this particular shed is doing flexions and bendy stuff at halt and walk to supple the horse. Buck Brannaman and Mark Rashid have very similar ideas. You should mosey over to COTH and have a wee look. 

I don't think one technique -- movement to balance and suppleness or balance and suppleness to movement -- is better than the other. But you do have to deal with the horse in front of you. Plenty of horses, including mine when she was young, have benefited from what can roughly be called the German school (movement into lightness). I'm training a Welsh Sec D now who is very responsive to being sent forward into balance. But for the "brace and run" type of horse, like Cinny, I would take the French approach.


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## nricutti (May 14, 2012)

I think you should really take into consideration some other people's advice instead of brushing them off because they don't fit into your "goals."

I've trained a morgan horse to lower level dressage, and she started off as a complete "llama" like you describe and had pelvic issues because of it. I never touched side or draw reins once. I lunged and rode in the german style martingale that gives the extremely mandatory release that JDI describes. It, and proper training, worked magic. Now it doesn't matter who is on her, she is always on the vertical with very light contact.

Please read more on classical dressage training and lungeing techniques. It will benefit you tremendously, and completely eliminate Cinny's health issues and the need for a chiropractor.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

nricutti said:


> I think you should really take into consideration some other people's advice instead of brushing them off because they don't fit into your "goals."
> 
> I've trained a morgan horse to lower level dressage, and she started off as a complete "llama" like you describe and had pelvic issues because of it. I never touched side or draw reins once. I lunged and rode in the german style martingale that gives the extremely mandatory release that JDI describes. It, and proper training, worked magic. Now it doesn't matter who is on her, she is always on the vertical with very light contact.
> 
> Please read more on classical dressage training and lungeing techniques. It will benefit you tremendously, and completely eliminate Cinny's health issues and the need for a chiropractor.


I'm not brushing them off, and I am considering them all, but I also respect my trainer's fresh approach as well. And yes we have tried a German Martingale, it had the opposite effect and pushed him completely onto his fore and made him brace and tense his shoulders and neck making things even worse. He looked good while using the martingale, but when taken off he was just a worse mess than before. It took my chiro three trips to undo what the GM did to his shoulders. I am not by any means saying a GM is a bad thing to use as some horses do marvelously in it and I have had horses in the past who did great in it, just not Cinny.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I cannot stress enough that light contact in a dressage horse is neither desired nor correct. It shows that the horse is ducking behind the vertical, is behind the contact and behind the leg. I never recommend German martingales, dugougs or draw reins for this reason. They teach the horse to be afraid of the contact and not trust it. They teach headset and not contact.

I honestly think that the poor horse deserves 3-6 months of the same training program for a while. Even if its not 100% ideal, this is the best set up I've seen the horse in. I do think however that he needs to be encouraged to move out, if he is bracing then the circle is too small and he is not able to find a full stride. Horses need to be able to gallop every once in a while. On a young horse I'm riding who tends to get quick and tense the best thing for him has been weekly gallops.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bucephalas (Oct 10, 2012)

Hello! I am new to the Horse Forum, but this post caught my eye.

I agree with anebel's last post- from reading all the comments it seems like you've tried many things. Let your horse settle into this system for a while, don't go changing it on account of other's opinions.

I am also not a fan of draw reins or any kind of GM for the reason anebel suggests. And a good gallop is a must for any arena-worked horse once a week! it gets rid of so much tension and stress. Plus it's fun


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

not to sound totally rude here, but if it took your chiropractor three visits to address ONE issue, then you need a new chiropractor. unless of course you were continuing to use the issue causing training aid between visits.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

crimsonsky said:


> not to sound totally rude here, but if it took your chiropractor three visits to address ONE issue, then you need a new chiropractor. unless of course you were continuing to use the issue causing training aid between visits.


I think it depends on the issue. Some things take only one visit, other things can take more than one. Even the chiropractor I go to for me doesn't always fix a problem all at once but in a few steps.

When something is just as much of a muscular issue as a skeletal issue you have problems with muscle memory, tension, etc. You may straighten out the joints and get them back where they should be but if a the muscles around the fixed joint stays tense it will pull it right back out of place. Unfortunately muscles can take days or weeks to relax back down when they have been stressed to the point of damage so therefore you need to keep correcting to fix what the strained muscles are doing to the joint/s.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

horses do not have muscle memory like a human, which is why i stated that there should be no need for multiple visits from a chiropractor for the same issue assuming all other factors aren't causing the reoccurance. you cannot compare your visits with a chiro to your horse's visits are you are skeletally built MUCH differently. 

i suggest you see if you can find this book if you continue to pay for a chiro to come do the same thing over and over again for your horse. in fact, you can read the first chapter and a half online on that link. might be a help to you...






ETA: as you mentioned that you keep doing the same adjustments to correct what the strained muscles are doing, perhaps you're missing where this is all stemming from and therefore not actually helping in the long run.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I like how you guys assume everyone can just go for a gallop once per week. Yeah, it would be nice. Don't know where Cinny is located but not everyone has the space or resources. If I could gallop my horse regularly, I would (and have done at other yards), but all the tracks near my yard have been completely trashed by motorbikes and are no longer safe for anything faster than a trot or slow canter and I haven't a trailer or access to one. Just sayin'. Some times you have to make do with the crap resources you have available. 

Anyway, it sounds as if Cinny has a reasonable trainer and should see how things go in her program, rather than listen to random strangers on the internet.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

crimsonsky said:


> horses do not have muscle memory like a human, which is why i stated that there should be no need for multiple visits from a chiropractor for the same issue assuming all other factors aren't causing the reoccurance. you cannot compare your visits with a chiro to your horse's visits are you are skeletally built MUCH differently.
> 
> i suggest you see if you can find this book if you continue to pay for a chiro to come do the same thing over and over again for your horse. in fact, you can read the first chapter and a half online on that link. might be a help to you...
> 
> ...


Basic Skeletal and muscular anatomy, although shaped different, work the same in pretty much all animal species. Muscles are made of the same type of tissue and work the same basic way be it a human, bird, or fish. And I have been to college level anatomy classes that study both animal and human anatomy. A bone is a bone, a muscle is a muscle, no mater what animal it is in.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

"I cannot stress enough that light contact in a dressage horse is neither desired nor correct."


Um, what? Explain. There was me thinking lightness is exactly what dressage riders desire. 


​


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> *I cannot stress enough that light contact in a dressage horse is neither desired nor correct.* It shows that the horse is ducking behind the vertical, is behind the contact and behind the leg. I never recommend German martingales, dugougs or draw reins for this reason. They teach the horse to be afraid of the contact and not trust it. They teach headset and not contact.
> 
> I honestly think that the poor horse deserves 3-6 months of the same training program for a while. Even if its not 100% ideal, this is the best set up I've seen the horse in. I do think however that he needs to be encouraged to move out, if he is bracing then the circle is too small and he is not able to find a full stride. Horses need to be able to gallop every once in a while. On a young horse I'm riding who tends to get quick and tense the best thing for him has been weekly gallops.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this post. However I am very very very confused about the part in bold.

Every single dressage trainer I have ridden with, including David Marcus have always encouraged soft contact with the mouth. Everything we do is supposed to be with our seat and leg. Hands are just a guide. 

Can you please explain this more? I am truly curious why you say this. I am not arguing or attacking(I hate how we have to put these disclaimers on forums). I am sincerely curious why you would say this. I'm always open to new opinions and outlooks on things.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Soft doesn't equal light though when talking about contact. A dressage horse should be in constant contact with the hands of the rider - but that contact should not be hard, it should be soft and fluid. To me, soft implies that the contact is there but moves with the horse. Light (to me) implies that if the horse moves, it can break the contact.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Soft doesn't equal light though when talking about contact. A dressage horse should be in constant contact with the hands of the rider - but that contact should not be hard, it should be soft and fluid. To me, soft implies that the contact is there but moves with the horse. Light (to me) implies that if the horse moves, it can break the contact.


This makes sense. I've never really considered the difference of those two words. Soft is there and moves. Light can be broken. And when I think about it that is the broken down, simple version of what these clinicians teach.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> This makes sense. I've never really considered the difference of those two words. Soft is there and moves. Light can be broken. And when I think about it that is the broken down, simple version of what these clinicians teach.


Glad I could help


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Exactly what Chiilaa has said. Watch Charlotte D. and Valegro. Lots of lightness, suppleness and softness, but that horse is stretching into the contact very strongly. Depending on the horse, as they get higher in the levels and the contact strengthens, one can have a lot of pressure in the hands. When my PSG horse is strong and in a competition I can easily have 20lbs in each rein and that is not enough contact for him. He still falls behind the leg. 
It's not dead weight, its not pulling, its like a handshake or like what a beam on a bridge would feel. In the beginning, on a horse who ducks behind the bit, we do encourage pulling, stretching and the horse putting as much pressure on the bit as possible. This is where correctly adjusted side reins help. As the horse is driven forward, eventually he has to stretch his neck out for balance, and is eventually tricked into taking a contact with the bit in this way. With praise, repetition and patience, the horse will eventually learn that is what we want and when the side reins never jerk the horse in the face, never get out of balance, etc, the horse comes to trust the contact, which is what we want.
True contact comes from behind and the hands are simply there. This is why I am also always encouraging riders to rest their knuckles in the neck of the horse, so they are like side reins and the horse then must be ridden into a correct contact with the leg and seat. When riding we do not need to go so fast to encourage a contact as we do on the lunge, because we have the balancing aid of the seat which can restrict while the leg drives. Contact becomes very easy also when the first two steps on the scale, rhythm and relaxation are confirmed.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Basic Skeletal and muscular anatomy, although shaped different, work the same in pretty much all animal species. Muscles are made of the same type of tissue and work the same basic way be it a human, bird, or fish. And I have been to college level anatomy classes that study both animal and human anatomy. A bone is a bone, a muscle is a muscle, no mater what animal it is in.


*sigh* the structural build of a human does NOT work the same as the structural build of a horse. we don't walk on all four of our limbs. clearly you didn't look at the book i suggested or i wouldn't have to comment on this again.

good luck with your horse.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

It doesn't matter, muscles still get damaged the same, and cause the same reactions when they are damaged no matter how an animal stands. I think maybe you are misreading thing...injured muscles can pull joints out of alignment in any animal, and continue to pull them out of alignment until the muscle itself heals. It's a fact of life for all animals.

BTW, my horse's chiro, isn't just a chiro, he is a veterinarian who has also intensely studied chiropractic as well as muscular rehabilitation of all animals, including horses, cats and dogs. I think he kind of knows his stuff, otherwise people wouldn't be having him work on their national level horses as well as money winning race horses...I kind of trust in what he says. 

I don't mean to be mean, but when you get your PHD in veterinary medicine as well as take another 6-8 years studying veterinary muscular rehab and chiropractic... let me know and I'll give you the same respect at my vet but until then, I want to believe in what he says.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> It doesn't matter, muscles still get damaged the same, and cause the same reactions when they are damaged no matter how an animal stands. I think maybe you are misreading thing...injured muscles can pull joints out of alignment in any animal, and continue to pull them out of alignment until the muscle itself heals. It's a fact of life for all animals.
> 
> *BTW, my horse's chiro, isn't just a chiro, he is a veterinarian who has also intensely studied chiropractic as well as muscular rehabilitation of all animals, including horses, cats and dogs. I think he kind of knows his stuff, otherwise people wouldn't be having him work on their national level horses as well as money winning race horses...I kind of trust in what he says. *
> 
> I don't mean to be mean, but when you get your PHD in veterinary medicine as well as take another 6-8 years studying veterinary muscular rehab and chiropractic... let me know and I'll give you the same respect at my vet but until then, I want to believe in what he says.


Ummmm if your in the states, I am of the impression that to become an equine chiropractor you've had to have either become a practicing veterinarian or qualified as a human chiropractor first.....therefore the fact that your horses chiropractor is a vet also is actually no surprise.......no meaning to stir you up....


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

You do what you'd like with your horse but personally i wouldn't work her in those 'side reins', I dislike them and personally think they shouldn't of been invented. 

There are better ways to go about it, talk to your trainer and see what she suggests.

I do agree with ~*~anebel~*~


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

JustAwesome said:


> You do what you'd like with your horse but personally i wouldn't work her in those 'side reins', I dislike them and personally think they shouldn't of been invented.
> 
> There are better ways to go about it, *talk to your trainer and see what she suggests.*
> 
> I do agree with ~*~anebel~*~


I thought that was what her trainer suggested because she is working with one..


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

crimsonsky said:


> horses do not have muscle memory like a human, which is why i stated that there should be no need for multiple visits from a chiropractor for the same issue assuming all other factors aren't causing the reoccurance. you cannot compare your visits with a chiro to your horse's visits are you are skeletally built MUCH differently.
> 
> ETA: as you mentioned that you keep doing the same adjustments to correct what the strained muscles are doing, perhaps you're missing where this is all stemming from and therefore not actually helping in the long run.


Of course horse's muscles have memories. If a horse has been misaligned for a while then the muscles will be wanting to hold where it has been for however long. 
I do agree with you that with a good chiropractor there is no need for multiple visits because if the adjustment is correct and muscle memory adjusted, all will be squared up. 
Very often problems stem from misalignment in the head and neck and do not show until the knock on effects shows further back.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Let's just agree to disagree about chiropractic  Even in humans it brings up a LOT of controversy and there are many methods (my personal one practices 3 different methods himself)... 

I have talked to my trainer and she feels that if we PUSH Cin forward he will continue bracing until we teach him that he can move in a more relaxed way. The plan is to get him more into a habit of "relaxing when working" and then we will move to phase 2 "relaxing when pushed." She believes that it should only take a few months as he is already making huge progress. 

She has watched pretty much most of Cinny's videos from the day I got him until now and has determined that he is what she calls a "stress bracer." Meaning that he has learned to brace himself in times of stress and that it is a lifetime habit that nobody fixed. He was never taught that it is possible to not go into "fight or flight" when being worked. She has seen this in a couple of rescues she has retrained (now doing nice 1st level work). 

Our keys right now are patience patience patience, re balancing me (with the lesson horses), I asked her about long lining and she thinks that is also a great idea and will work on that with me in the very near future. She wants him to relax a little more on the lunge first because she's worried that if he tries to brace against me at any point I will end up dragged which will teach him the wrong behavior. 

She says Cinny is a horse that needs more psychological reconditioning than physical training at this point. Now that she has had time to get to know him she sees that 75% of our issues are actually psychological and not physical or knowledge.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree with your trainer, there is no moving forward when a horse is in that state of mind.

Not to disagree but simply curious, where do the side reins factor in on this approach? If his state of mind is still at the point of associating work with stress I'd personally want to remove as much pressure as safely possible. The impression I get from that last post is that he tenses up as soon as he's put to work, but if the side reins are still on is it that he is fine until contact is picked up?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Gremmy said:


> I agree with your trainer, there is no moving forward when a horse is in that state of mind.
> 
> Not to disagree but simply curious, where do the side reins factor in on this approach? If his state of mind is still at the point of associating work with stress I'd personally want to remove as much pressure as safely possible. The impression I get from that last post is that he tenses up as soon as he's put to work, but if the side reins are still on is it that he is fine until contact is picked up?


The side reins are showing him that there is a more comfortable alternative to throwing his head up like a llama and arching his back where without them he is allowed to continue to do so which never changes anything. Other trainers have tried for 2 years to get him to stop his head tossing, llama head, teeth grinding and after a few weeks with this trainer he is actually relaxing with his head down while riding... no head tossing, no teeth grinding...no gadgets while in the saddle.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

There are times when I feel that Homer Simpson had it right, "Can't win don't try"

When someone comes on with an issue with their horse, we scream get a trainer, get a better trainer, get the vet, chiro, farrier, horse whisperer, plumber, postman, any professional that we think will help. So a poster goes off and does all that and then everyone starts again, no you need a different professional, because that one doesn't agree with what I say.

Fact, some people hate side reins, I like them, use them with all of mine, used properly they serve a purpose, and now for part of their training I'm using one side rein, as promoted by Dominique Barbier, and that is having results as well. There is not one answer to every problem, and because an OP doesn't do it your way, and lets face it there is no way that you can do anything to please everyone around here, or anywhere when it comes to it. Cinny, if you have confidence in this trainer stick with it, listen to the person on the ground and maybe stop asking for opinions until you get another few stages along the road.

You will notice one consistent voice though, is getting that boy moving, without impulsion there can be no collection so I agree with everyone else, wake him up and get him moving out there.

All in all though he looks happier now than he has done before, so I think you are making progress


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