# Saddleseat Questions



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A lot of the things we see in show classes is simply down to someone starting a fashion trend at some time that then becomes a tradition - it doesn't have to serve a purpose but for some reason is a 'must do/have'. A lot of the time its because someone once thought it looked 'smart'
The Arabian and Morgan classes are more inclined to leave the set of the tail natural

The smile? Well when I first started showing ponies in the UK - not saddleseat, its never really been a 'thing' over there - I was told to smile, look as if I was enjoying myself that way the judges wouldn't notice that the little divil was actually pulling my arms out and trying to buck so not exclusive to Saddleseat classes or the US

I have only ridden one Saddleseat horse and he was about as far removed from being a dressage trained horse as I think it could get, the style of riding is very different


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I always thought the smiles were fake. Until I rode some good saddlebreds. I had it, too, while riding them!

They are just fun to ride. 

As to the rest of your observations: I hope you meet some saddlebred trainers to discuss those with.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I can't comment on saddleseat riding as I don't ride in that discipline but I am pretty good at reading comprehension. Quote: Results as show by the performance of the horse are NOT to be considered more important than the method used in obtaining them. That is pretty much saying that that the methods used to obtain the results are just as important as the results themselves.


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

LoriF said:


> I can't comment on saddleseat riding as I don't ride in that discipline but I am pretty good at reading comprehension. Quote: Results as show by the performance of the horse are NOT to be considered more important than the method used in obtaining them. That is pretty much saying that that the methods used to obtain the results are just as important as the results themselves.


Thanks for that, you'd think I would have realized that after reading it 4 times... Back to kindergarten I go!


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

boots said:


> I always thought the smiles were fake. Until I rode some good saddlebreds. I had it, too, while riding them!
> 
> They are just fun to ride.
> 
> As to the rest of your observations: I hope you meet some saddlebred trainers to discuss those with.


Well I own saddlebreds, but none of them do saddleseat. My mother used to ride and train them, but she never used harmful methods. I like to watch saddleseat shows but since I don't get the opportunity to travel to them, YouTube has become my friend in this case. 

But whenever I watch the shows the tails are always up and my mother points out which ones have been broken versus using the tail set. I told her I want to ride saddleseat one day and she gave me a weird look and said why would you want to force their tails to look like that, and that's when I told her there's nothing in the rules stating that I have to do so, and she looked kind of baffled for a second... So I went here to see if anyone else knew this, or if everyone was just conforming to the masses. I asked her the same questions too, she said that you can ride them bit-less, but she wasn't too sure about the dressage part.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I have a saddlebred mare that I obtained after being retired from show and having babies (she was used to breed NSH's). She had not been ridden for eight years when I got her. It took a little bit of patience, but she finally got it that I didn't have the same expectations of her as owners/riders in the past. She finally settle down into a pretty decent trail horse. Her tail is bent. I don't know if that was from being in a tail set or if it was broken but it is pretty bent. She's a pretty nice mare and really smart.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I know nothing about those horses but maybe it's a characteristic of good conformation which people try to emulate on horses which don't exhibit it?

Arabs I ride tend to keep their tails up, even with inexperienced riders, without any training whatsoever - it's just how they are.


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

Horsef said:


> I know nothing about those horses but maybe it's a characteristic of good conformation which people try to emulate on horses which don't exhibit it?
> 
> Arabs I ride tend to keep their tails up, even with inexperienced riders, without any training whatsoever - it's just how they are.


They have "humane" sets for the saddlebreds that pop their tails almost vertical. It's not natural to the breed to that extent, so I'm not sure that'd be why they'd want it.

Technically saddlebreds can have a natural or set tail, but right now the trend is a set tail. Don't know why, it's not my circuit.

As for smiling, the judges DO care because in a pleasure class your horse is supposed to look like a pleasure to ride- Obviously if you clearly have the class they're not gonna dock you for having resting b!face, but if you look like you're panicking the whole time it does not reflect well on your horse. Same reason drill teamers and cheerleaders smile throughout their routines. You're supposed to look like you're having a good time.

As covered, that quote you pulled is to basically say "We need to take humane training into consideration; inhumane methods of producing a higher trot will/should (in theory) be penalized".

Saddleseat, at its core, is basically fast tracked 4th level dressage. Yes you can collect (not saying everyone does it). While not all, some of the really successfully high steppers I've seen in the Arab circuit are properly collected. It's a lot of hard work so it's not uncommon to see people take short cuts, especially because the main concerns (depending which division/"level" of saddleseat the horse shows) are 1) How high the trot is 2) How proper the headset is 3) How mannered/cadenced the horse is. While my trainer tried to teach me how to get Rush's hind end engaged, I was touch-and-go on how successful I was with it.

Park is more concerned with #1, English is more #1 and #2, and Country is more #3 with some emphasis placed on #2

If you're not showing then you can do whatever you want; Yes Saddleseat horses are typically hot-to-trot, but so long as the horse has the training and manners there's no reason they COULDN'T be ridden bitless. One girl I know rides her champion SB stallion in a halter at home.


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

Bedhead said:


> They have "humane" sets for the saddlebreds that pop their tails almost vertical. It's not natural to the breed to that extent, so I'm not sure that'd be why they'd want it.
> 
> Technically saddlebreds can have a natural or set tail, but right now the trend is a set tail. Don't know why, it's not my circuit.
> 
> ...


Please ignore the quote it was a result of my horrible eyesight (very embarrassing)!

I figured they could be trained into collection, and be ridden bit less, but I thought I would ask anyways... Now I don't have this so called resting b**** face, but isn't it obvious that the smiles are fake, and the judges can clearly see that so why even bother, I don't believe it's a win or lose situation unless you look like a panicked mess?


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

SamanthaB said:


> Please ignore the quote it was a result of my horrible eyesight (very embarrassing)!
> 
> I figured they could be trained into collection, and be ridden bit less, but I thought I would ask anyways... Now I don't have this so called resting b**** face, but isn't it obvious that the smiles are fake, and the judges can clearly see that so why even bother, I don't believe it's a win or lose situation unless you look like a panicked mess?


Again, it's a pleasure class so it's 100% at the judge's discretion. There's a standard of what the horses and riders are supposed to look like and are more or less judged in order of who fits that mold the best. Judge says they like smiles, so everyone smiles. It's not going to make or break a class, but if the judge likes it and it's easy to do then consider it done. Any little bit to get you that edge counts. As an outsider looking in who understands the discipline but is not in the breed circuit, saddleseat is INTENSE in the saddlebred world. Lots of Arab kids take eq lessons with SB trainers because NO ONE does saddleseat eq like an SB trainer, and that's a fact, jack.

Plus, if you can survive their fancy show horses you can ride just about anything lol. 

ALSO OF NOTE; Again, I ride on the Arabian circuit, not the saddlebred circuit, and I never actually get to sit and _watch_ classes at shows, but I know some Arabian people put Vaseline on their teeth so they don't have to think about if they're smiling. I wouldn't be surprised if the SBs do the same thing, and that might account for why the smiling looks so intense.


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## karensc (Jul 5, 2015)

I don't feel like any of the saddleseat shows that I have been to have had that much ridiculous smiling (it wan't anything that I picked up on while watching)... but then again I'm also usually watching the academy classes. I don't know if that makes a difference.

Also, if SamanthaB doesn't mind me hijacking her thread a little...
In saddleseat are you actually supposed to have a chair seat? Or are you supposed to sit with your head/hips/heels lined up? I'm assuming that chair seat is wrong even though you are sitting a little bit further back on the horse, but when I watch others ride that seems to be how they are sitting.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

karensc said:


> I don't feel like any of the saddleseat shows that I have been to have had that much ridiculous smiling (it wan't anything that I picked up on while watching)... but then again I'm also usually watching the academy classes. I don't know if that makes a difference.
> 
> Also, if SamanthaB doesn't mind me hijacking her thread a little...
> In saddleseat are you actually supposed to have a chair seat? Or are you supposed to sit with your head/hips/heels lined up? I'm assuming that chair seat is wrong even though you are sitting a little bit further back on the horse, but when I watch others ride that seems to be how they are sitting.


I also see some chair seat. But I also see that the coats worn make some only appear to be in a "chair" seat.

Love saddle seat classes. Any breed.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

As for the smile, as long as it's not fake the judges generally prefer it _especially _in pleasure classes. You might be struggling, sweating and having a really bad ride but a cool demeanor plus a nice smile could move you up a couple of places. Sure preferable to the snarly, grouchy, spoiled looks I sometime see!:wink: The word pleasure is the key!

Back in the old days, in a pleasure class a grouchy looking horse could knock you out of the running too. Pinned ears, swishing tail and even a minor threatening movement towards another horse and you could forget that class!


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

karensc said:


> I don't feel like any of the saddleseat shows that I have been to have had that much ridiculous smiling (it wan't anything that I picked up on while watching)... but then again I'm also usually watching the academy classes. I don't know if that makes a difference.
> 
> Also, if SamanthaB doesn't mind me hijacking her thread a little...
> In saddleseat are you actually supposed to have a chair seat? Or are you supposed to sit with your head/hips/heels lined up? I'm assuming that chair seat is wrong even though you are sitting a little bit further back on the horse, but when I watch others ride that seems to be how they are sitting.


I think the chair seat is just something that occurred, you're not supposed to "have it", but I think it's similar to what happens in dressage where you get riders who think sitting way too far back is a good thing or okay to do...


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure how it came about, but according to google image you either have saddleseat riders properly lined up, or riders with their lower leg parallel to the girth (chair seat). I think having your leg on the girth may feel it provides a better grip (whether it actually does it up for debate) as you've got more thigh layed across the horse to absorb the trot. I'll have to ask my trainer about this...

From what I can tell, it looks like the saddlebreds keep it in check with the heels/hips/shoulders lined up, but the other breeds have their lower legs even with the girth.


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

Can't edit; Trainer says heels under hips is correct unless you're showing walking horses. Why it's so common in non-walking riders idk.


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## Tack Collector (Nov 10, 2009)

Chair-seat is what you get when you ride a saddle that is too long for you, have your knees hiked up higher on the horse, and your stirrups are usually hung out in front. If you shorten the saddle tree, lengthen your stirrups, and position your legs more vertically, then you have a position that's approximately the classical seat of dressage.

What's happened since the debut of adjustable stirrup bars in the '80s is that now there's a fad to "sit back." So, now we see riders slid 'way back in some enormously long saddle (like 22" - 24" nailhead to cantle), and they use the adjustable stirrup bars to try to bring the stirrups back to meet them, and there is a good 4" or more of saddle flap out in front of the rider's knees. Most of those riders can push themselves back and stay there at walk and trot, but the motion of the horse almost inevitably slides them forward in the saddle at the canter. I used to have some photos and videos of this, but can't locate them now. I recently watched some of those riders riding without stirrups, and that's where you really could see lots of people were riding saddles that are much larger than needed.

There is definitely a chair-seat / sit-back fad going on in today's equitation riding, and it was made possible by the adjustable stirrup bars and the sticky saddles like the Shively MMX and all the layered leather saddles that copied it. And the longer saddle trees. Saddleseat used to show in the park saddles that evolved from the old, old flat English hunting saddle like you see in Currier and Ives prints. 17"-19" was the size range for those, and 19" was really only used by men. Then the Lane Fox saddle with the 4" cutback took over, but if you look at old catalogs, the first ones of that style were 18" and 19" and then 20". In the '70s, 21" was what most adult women and some men rode. 22" was for the really tall. But now you see thin women of average height or shorter perched up there in their 22" saddles with adjustable bars when a 20" saddle would suffice. The very popular Shively (and other Barnsby) saddles actually run 1/2" to 3/4" larger than their stated size, so a person who's riding a 22" Shively is on a saddle that measures between 22.5" and 22.75" from nailhead to cantle.


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