# overo x tobiano..



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I'd have to see the horse but unless the horse inherited the tobiano white pattern but just had Overo white then it would probably just be Overo. But it's really hard to say without a pic. Can you link to the ad?
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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I'd have to see the horse but unless the horse inherited the tobiano white pattern but just had Overo white then it would probably just be Overo. But it's really hard to say without a pic. Can you link to the ad?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_













She doesnt 'look' tovero-- isnt a horse thats tobiano & overo always a 'tovero'?


..my links arent working on the forum.. http://images.craigslist.org/3Ka3I83F75Nf5Fd5Hcd3b8687453f65fa14c0.jpg


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

She looks splash and frame Overo she didn't inherit tobiano. I didn't explain myself good enough. I was saying unless she inherited tobiano which she clearly didn't she she can't be torvero a word I hate. She is Overo she has one or two Overo patterns. I'd think frame because the white has be restricted on the legs an the broadness of the white and splash cause of the smoothness of the white and its kinda bottom heavy. Both are Overo white patterns.
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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I thought if a horse has a tov parent that it wont be only overo, or tobiano-- thanks for clearing that up.

I also thought for a horse to be splash-- the horse had to have a bald face-- i wouldnt quite call that bald faced-- and had to have high whites?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

toto said:


> I thought if a horse has a tov parent that it wont be only overo, or tobiano-- thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I also thought for a horse to be splash-- the horse had to have a bald face-- i wouldnt quite call that bald faced-- and had to have high whites?


That's where the frame comes in, frame suppressed the leg white it hates leg white and splash can be expressed in different loudness. It doesn't have to cover the whole face. I need Posiedon, ND, Chiilaa they can explain it better than me.
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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

I think i get it-- what would her face marking be called-- bonnet, right? 

how her coronets go up the backs of the fetlocks dont mean anything?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I don't know the generic labels for the white I just try to know the white patterns causing the markings. As for the little white triangles I'm guessing splash tried to put leg white but frame suppressed most of it. But I'm sure the others could tell you more. I'm still getting into the in depth genetics of white patterns I like dilutions better 
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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Eh-- i just know enough about color to be dangerous.:twisted: thats why i always question everything. Its interesting to me. dont most of them go to school for color genetics?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah I think some of them have. I have a biology degree and have had college genetics classes but I'm learning about equine gentics on my own with the help of the others. Gotta give credit where its due . They always answer my questions and I've learned a lot from them but I haven't got to their level yet but I'm trying. I've improved over the year or so I've been on this forum 
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

First of all, start googling horses based on individual color patterns and you'll the range of expression that each gene shows. Chiilaa has a folder full of saved photos of examples of horses that don't follow the "rules" set forth by their gene. Like a pair of completely solid horses..homozygous for splash. Or these two are both frame positive:

Spice, owned by a forum member, only has a star. 









And my own mare, who only has a white pastern other than her blaze:









Second, don't use the word "tovero." It's downright heresy. It's a word made up by the APHA for a color they couldn't be bothered to describe full out. Same with overo. Overo consists of frame, splash, and sabino, all of which act differently, but they just use it in the sense of "anything that isn't tobiano." Tovero is used for tobiano + 1 or more overo gene. 

She's just overo. I would guess frame and splash, maybe sabino the way the black is still covering the eyes. Just because her sire was tobiano plus some overo gene(s) doesn't mean she necessarily inherited it. Unless a parent is homozygous, the offspring only has a 50% chance of inheritance for each gene. She would also be bald faced. Bald faced just refers to anything wider than the average blaze to an entirely white head. 

And none of us have taken genetics classes really, at least not specific equine genetic classes to my knowledge. I haven't. I'm a junior equine science major (though really a freshman in my actual major due to major change) and have already proven to be more versed in color genetics than a couple of the department professors. We have just done a lot of reading and research.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Lol posiedon, you and ND, and chiilaa are my color professors for learning ! And hurray I was right about the splash and frame. I'm getting better at those pesky white patterns.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

It's weird once you get used to picking them apart and now, instead of seeing a horse as a colored horse, I see all of the layers of color separately.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> It's weird once you get used to picking them apart and now, instead of seeing a horse as a colored horse, I see all of the layers of color separately.


Yes I'm getting better at picking them apart and seeing how they interact with each other. Feels good!
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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Whats, spices color? Grulla? She looks like a big ol girl!! Lol. 

I also love your horses face!! Very friendly looking, lol. 

Ill just have to stalk the color genetics forum and learn somethin.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Spice appears grullo, but I would wonder if she would test positive for At, but be so dark that the rest of her body appears black. There are plenty of browns so dark that their only giveaway is a lighter muzzle. 

And I believe that is one of only a handful of pictures I have of Abby looking like a friendly, approachable horse, to be honest. She's very..exasperated often. She would happily live without humans while bossing around her posse. She's not out with her actual friends (one of whom has moved anyway) anymore, but has accepted Kaja well enough as a buddy. She hates the geldings she lives with, even though one is hopelessly in love with her. Abby has a serious Abbytude, as seen here:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Chiilaa and I decided that Spice would test positive for brown I believe.


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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

I'd love to see the solid horses that test homozygous for splash. Which version 1 2 or 3?
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

riddlemethis said:


> I'd love to see the solid horses that test homozygous for splash. Which version 1 2 or 3?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am fairly sure you have seen them already - the Gotlands that have produced SW1/SW1 foals. Here is one of them:


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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

Ah yes. Those I've seen. But I thought they had tested heterozygous not homozygous.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The four with minimal or no white (I think there was two that had no white, two that had minimal from memory, but mated minimal x no white) have produced two foals that have each tested homozygous. These are the two foals:


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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> The four with minimal or no white (I think there was two that had no white, two that had minimal from memory, but mated minimal x no white) have produced two foals that have each tested homozygous. These are the two foals:


Yes I've seen those foals and I'm aware that the foals are tested homozygous. I was not aware that the solid parents had tested homozygous.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me then. I meant that since the foals had tested Hz, the parents must be at least heterozygous for SW1 (I know, stating the bleeding obvious, but a lot of search hits come here, so if I spell it out, maybe they will get it too  )


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## riddlemethis (Jun 3, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Sorry, I think you misunderstood me then. I meant that since the foals had tested Hz, the parents must be at least heterozygous for SW1 (I know, stating the bleeding obvious, but a lot of search hits come here, so if I spell it out, maybe they will get it too  )


Ah ok.

That's what I thought, but then Poseidon said you had solid horses that tested Homozygous so I was curious.


We're on the same page then!:lol:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

My mistake. I confused them from their foals because they are mentioned often and remembered it as the minimally marked ones being homozygous. My mistake. Either way, my point was being that not all expressions follow a specific phenotype mold.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Spice appears grullo, but I would wonder if she would test positive for At, but be so dark that the rest of her body appears black. There are plenty of browns so dark that their only giveaway is a lighter muzzle.
> 
> And I believe that is one of only a handful of pictures I have of Abby looking like a friendly, approachable horse, to be honest. She's very..exasperated often. She would happily live without humans while bossing around her posse. She's not out with her actual friends (one of whom has moved anyway) anymore, but has accepted Kaja well enough as a buddy. She hates the geldings she lives with, even though one is hopelessly in love with her. Abby has a serious Abbytude, as seen here:




any horse thats 'black based' could be possible At right? --since its a agouti mutation?

Haha! I love the 'abbytude' :lol: Why does it seem like the pretty colored ones are always the ones that seem to be more bossy? 

Do horses treat each other differently by color? 

I noticed in a group of many different colors-- blacks hang out with light greys. Sorrels with the bays. Palominos with the bucks and duns. There any reasoning behind it or just random yet coincidental? Lol.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Sort of. I'm about to go to bed, so I hope this makes sense. It makes sense in my head, but relaying it right now might be fuzzy. Any color that is strictly black + a modification other than agouti (champagne, cream, dun, silver, etc) cannot have agouti because that would cause a different color, which takes out a large number of black based horses. 

While not entirely correct to say because bay is black-based, it would be easier to think of it as any bay-based horse could also be carrying At. A horse can be AAt, but it would still be a bay horse because A is dominant over At. And it is also easier to say that any red-based horse could be carrying At. At least with a black-based horse, we can make assumptions based on its phenotype on what agouti mutation it may carry, but red based horses have no black to restrict, leaving zero possibilities to determine agouti status without a DNA test.

Abby's best friend was a sorrel Appy with snowflakes along with their gray friend. She's buddied up with Kaja now, who is a dun. Coincidentally with your post, the gelding they live with is a palomino. Where I board my horses, there are 3-4 horses per paddock who are grouped based on gender and personality. We don't have much variety in color anyway, so there really aren't patterns.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

That makes sense to me-- agouti is dominant over brown because brown is a mutation of agouti-- but agouti is really dominant over all colors it just needs the E to make it appear. 

If brown is a mutation of bay is it a dilution-- since it makes the 'soft parts' of the body lighter?



Lol, i knew it!!.  im joking-- i know your horses are a totally different situation-- but, my ol man did tell me that he thought horses colors affected their personalities.. He said he thought palomino horses were different because theyre smarter-- Hes not very 'horsey' but maybe he sees something us 'more horsey' people dont see? I do tend to get along better with sorrel and black horses for some weird reason, lol.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Brown is not a dilution. Known dilutions are cream, dun, silver, champagne, and pearl.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

toto said:


> That makes sense to me-- agouti is dominant over brown because brown is a mutation of agouti-- but agouti is really dominant over all colors it just needs the E to make it appear.
> 
> If brown is a mutation of bay is it a dilution-- since it makes the 'soft parts' of the body lighter?


No, it is not a dilution. It's a modification. 

And bay is dominant over brown based on how it restricts black. In theory, A+ would be dominant over A, as it restricts black the most, then A dominant over At because it restricts black more than At, and At last because it restricts black the least. But note the "in theory" part. This seems perfectly logical, but then you have to take into account that if that were true, we would probably see more wild bays.


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