# HELP! He is out of control!!



## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok so when i first got my guy nash i posted on here asking what to do about his little problems. I got him to where i could saddle him get on him and all kinds of stuff.. then he got sick, he couldnt work work because his lungs were all clogged up so i took the time while he was on the meds to work with his feet and just letting me love all over him, which he would be very ancy about. He was doing good, i went away for the weekend and my mom and dad were taking care of him for me. When i got back he was a little pushier than before, i was like ok when you get pushy you go back to your stall and we try again, id leave him alone for a minute or two and try again, the pushier he got the more i left him alone, the more i left him alone the angrier he got...

Well i started using a chain, which i know most of you just gasped at that but i've learned that chain helps with a little bit of extra authority... Now understand that my guy is BARELY 14hh... so he's kind of a little thing when i was dealing with 16hh horses before i got him... he was doing good with the chain and everything and just one day he decided he was gonna start beating on my arabian gelding.... my arabian was like "dude wth?" so i tried to keep them seperated as best i could if they were out in the field they left each other alone, if i went to bring nash in and louie got anywhere near him nash would kick at him, if i brought louie in first nash would run up behind him and start biting his butt or run in front of him and try to kick him.... WITH ME STANDING RIGHT THERE!!! so i had to go and get reanforcements when it comes to bringing them in.... well the lady who owns the barn sometimes turns him out for me in the mornings if i have to go to work early... she comes up to me two days ago and says i cant take nash out he scares me... he charges her when she tries to take him out of his stall, if she puts my arabian out first he tries to break the stall down and she cant get him to calm down, when she puts him in the field he turns towards her with his ears pinned to his skull and tries to bite her.... this lady has been dealing with all kinds of horses for years! ever since she was like 10 and shes in her late 40's now.. i've never seen her be afraid of a horse.. even a horse i was afraid of she wasnt... i told her not to worry about it i would take care of him in the mornings even if i have to work early..


So yesterday i went to turn him out, and he drug me through the field on my knees... just because i didnt unclip him at the gate... and i didnt have the chain on his knows fyi... so i got ahold of him took him back to his stall and took my arabian outside... i was planning on leaving nash in because some of the other horses were in so i didnt think it would be a problem... he flipped he tried to climb over the door, the wall go through the wall... so i calmed him down got the lead rope, took him out he was good i opened the gate, and he stood there i unclipped him he stood there.. i said well you can go if you like, he took of and bucked and tried to kick me... now if he had just bucked while running i wouldnt have thought anything of that.. he bucked at my face... i fell backwards and just sat in the dirt.. i didnt get hurt but i was in shock.. my arabian came over and put his nose down and touched my knee like are you ok mom? i said im good louie and he helped me up.. he then went and pushed nash away from where he was standing close by to get him away from me... 


Im in absoute awe... i have no clue what to do to get him back in control, i've been trying to get control of him for like a month now and he is just getting worse.. a trainer came out and he was perfect.. she thinks we are nuts...the chiro came out and he said there isnt anything wrong, farrier checked his feet they are fine, vet checked for something or anything that would make him mean, he found nothing... i just i dont know what to do... should i sell him to someone who could handle him? do i try and work thru it...? what the heck do i do??


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You send him to a trainer who can handle him and get him properly started.

Your inexperience coupled with his apparent reactiveness and sensitivity are making things escalate to where either you, he, or both of you are going to get seriously hurt.

You don't know what you're doing with him, and you're making him worse. Either cough up the money and send him to a trainer, or get rid of him.

He deserves a chance at a good life, and unless you're willing to admit you're incapable of training him properly, you're going to mess him up to where he becomes rank and uncontrollable. Then the_ only_ people who are going to want him are the kill buyers, and it'll be your fault.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Please, consider the REAL trainer! Not the one, who came out once and says you are nuts (WHAT kind of trainer is that anyway?!). The one who comes out and WORKS with you and your horse through the issues and how to handle them. It sounds very dangerous, and you can be hurt next time he gets a hoof into you.


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## ChevyPrincess (Aug 27, 2009)

I know you haven't meant to, but I think his aggression has been human caused. It is very common for people who can't control a horse with a halter, to work their way up more severe. They even make electric shock halters nowadays. As humans, we are predators and think differently than the prey animals, which includes horses. 

A lot of times though, the more aggressive we get, tends to make the horse more aggressive back. In the horse world, the main game is 'pushed or be pushed' (Chris Irwin's words). If you haven't worked a horse in a while, it is common sense that he will test you again, just to see what he can get away with. But those problems can be fixed by redifing your dominance and it doesn't have to be by causing pain or fear, just gaining respect.

I think becuase of causing him pain, you have lost his trust, and also his respect for you. I don't know that when he does something wrong, you put him in his stall. Becuase, that means that it turn into punishment grounds. So everytime he goes in there, he thinks he is being punished, but if he doesn't know what he is being punished for, he become confused, and then irritated, and that can lead to aggression. 

The rule of thumb is, if you can, punish a horse no later than *3 seconds* after he does something. In the wild, when a horse steps out of line, the other horse immediatley lets him know by a pin of his ears, a little bite, or a kick. If you can't punish the horse in time, don't. He will associate it with the wrong thing.

I would suggest finding a horse trainer that knows some about natural horsemanship so he/she can resolve anger from the horse, then begin to gain respect and trust. Or, just sell him otherwise for safety purposes and find you a nice horse.


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## racinmyself (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm beginning to think people on here don't read the actual post before commenting. you say you're not used to dealing with little guys, right? You've mostly been around taller horses? Have you done a lot of ground work with your little guy?

The only reason I'm asking is because lounging for respect might help you out some here. I disagree with the "trainer" you had come out. Any trainer worth their weight is going to watch you work with the horse, more than once, and work with the horse them self. I don't really agree with what other are saying about this being human caused. Not really. Using a chain doesn't make a horse mean or aggressive unless you're abusing them with it. From what you've said you're not. 

Chains are used all the time on horses. Umm folks what do you think a lot of stallions and halter horses are led around with. Wake up it's not the tool it's how you use it. 

So my advice is ground work, lounging for respect, and working with a better trainer who is willing to take the time to understand you're problem and help you out. Definitely try lounging in the field he seems to have a issue with respect when you're turning him out. If he acts out start lounging him right then at there. Make him work. Get control of his feet and some respect and you'll be able to solve a lot of his issues.


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

Are you kidding racin? She obviously, *admittedly*, cannot handle this horse. What is so wrong about telling her to get him started by a professional? 

On that note, I agree with the majority of the posters. You do not seem to be the right person for this horse. You need professional help. No one wants to see you taking a hoof to the head or him in the hands of a killer buyer. Get him help, get yourself help. Please.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

racinmyself said:


> I don't really agree with what other are saying about this being human caused. Not really. Using a chain doesn't make a horse mean or aggressive unless you're abusing them with it. From what you've said you're not.
> 
> Chains are used all the time on horses. Umm folks what do you think a lot of stallions and halter horses are led around with. Wake up it's not the tool it's how you use it.
> 
> So my advice is ground work, lounging for respect, and working with a better trainer who is willing to take the time to understand you're problem and help you out. Definitely try lounging in the field he seems to have a issue with respect when you're turning him out. If he acts out start lounging him right then at there. Make him work. Get control of his feet and some respect and you'll be able to solve a lot of his issues.


^I agree with much of this. Chains are like bits - they have a valid use, but can be easily mis-used. OP, it sounds like you're doing ok with the use of the chain, but running into the problems that come from relying on the chain for control rather than finding the root of the control problem. I would personally lose the chain in this situation, just because if the horse does really yank and drag on the halter and lead I don't want to risk the delicate bones of the face. 

If you think he's out of control (which, I assume by your title that you do), find a trainer or someone who can help you control him. Being dragged on your knees when you try to turn your horse out is not acceptable, no matter what headgear you're using. If it doesn't get better with real pro help, you might want to consider selling him to someone who can deal with him.

In the meantime, I would do just as racinmyself suggested - get his feet moving on your terms, establish your personal space, and start enforcing and reinforcing a pattern of respectful behavior. If you don't like it, don't tolerate it, and channel that energy into something that you do like. This counts for every minute that you spend with the horse - not only formal "training time". If he charges past you, stop him (disengage his hindquarters if necessary), and back his bum up. This book might help you:Amazon.com: Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders (9781570762840): Clinton Anderson, Ami Hendrickson: Books -- but please consider looking for a trainer who can help you on-site, who will observe you and your horse, and help both of you figure out how to handle this. A book can only help so much, and by the sound of it, you may need more than theoretic knowledge and exercise recipes.

Best of luck, and be safe.


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

Maybe I didn't read thoroughly, but I didn't see anyone who responded harping about her using a chain? Only her dramatic, "which i know most of you just gasped at that", assumption that we would take offense to the use of the chain says anything negative about the chain being used.

I do agree that in the meantime the advice given by racin and Scout is good. However, more than anything you need professional help.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results.

The OP is _not_ experienced or qualified enough to handle this horse and get him trained properly. 

Y'all can spout off about reading books, watching DVDs, and mouth platitudes about 'natural horsemanship' until you're blue in the face, but the fact is you CAN'T learn how to train a horse using those methods without _first_ being under the tutelage of a professional.

Most of the farked up horses I've seen going through auctions are because some starry-eyed noob thought all they needed to do was read up on those methods and use 'love' to train their animal.

Yeah, they 'loved' that horse so much it became rank and unmanageable, and more than likely wound up on someone's dinner plate.

One last thing; the word is LONGED or LUNGED, not _lounged_. Look up the definition of lounge, please. It doesn't mean what you think it does.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

The one thing that REALLY stuck out to me was the fact that when he was bad, you'd put him away or let him chill then start again. Thats rewarding bad behavior. Please get a trainer before either of you get hurt!


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results.
> 
> The OP is _not_ experienced or qualified enough to handle this horse and get him trained properly.
> 
> ...


Its posts like this that make me wish there was a 'like' button.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Yeah, lunge the horse in the feild when she you can't even handle him in the barn. Good one, guys.

You've been given some good advice by SR, Gillian, and Chevy. I've been around the forum long enough to know who you can take seriously, and those people know their stuff.. I agree 100% with what they said. You need help, and there's nothing wrong with that. We all do!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results.
> 
> The OP is _not_ experienced or qualified enough to handle this horse and get him trained properly.
> 
> ...


I agree wholeheartedly that the OP needs to get a trainer involved ASAP for the safety of all involved. No, one cannot become a horseman through books alone, and the midset that one can has definitely resulted in a glut of horses who need retrained.

That being said, there's no reason why the OP can't read up on equine psychology, herd dynamics, etc. and find ways to better position him/herself as a respected herd leader *while under the advice/help/training of a professional*. 

While perhaps helpful and illuminating, books alone are not going to be helpful at all in this situation. Knowledge is power, but, *especially* in this scenario, you need someone with experience and feel to really help you and your horse.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I wasn't going to post, but I really feel that the words of SR, Gillian, Chevy, Eliz, LovetheSaddlebreds, and ScoutRider need more weight added. They have given you the correct answer.

You lunge him in the feild you are asking for trouble. This horse has already learned that you are not a person to respect. By putting him in a stall, i.e. leaving him alone or releasing the pressure you've successfully taught him that misbehavior is rewarded. 

Fixing this problem is not going to be easy nor is it something you should attempt by yourself. Reading books and watching DVDs is all well and good, but they should only be used in conjunction with an experienced trainer. Especially at the level you are at. 

You have two smart options here: Get a trainer and DO NOT work this horse by yourself or sell the horse to an experienced trainer. I think you should sell the horse personally and let him (and you) start over with someone new.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

^
amen!


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

The horse world ain't magic, rainbows, and butterflies. You HAVE to be realistic about what you can and cannot handle, about what your horse can and cannot handle. Or neither of you will be doing anything. And thats exactly where you're headed right now. Get help. From a professional.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:


> The one thing that REALLY stuck out to me was the fact that when he was bad, you'd put him away or let him chill then start again. Thats rewarding bad behavior. Please get a trainer before either of you get hurt!


This stood out to me too. Please get a knowledgeable trainer to work with this horse _and_ you. Horses aren't like kids, they don't understand why they're being put in their stalls and left for periods of time. They also don't tell time, so leaving him in there for longer and longer doesn't do anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> You have two smart options here: Get a trainer and DO NOT work this horse by yourself or sell the horse to an experienced trainer. I think you should sell the horse personally and let him (and you) start over with someone new.


 

The selling of the horse is honestly what i want to do.. just because today i tried to lunge him in the outdoor arena, just to see how he would act, ( i wasnt alone or anything) just because when we were working together before he responded from voice cues and the occasional snap of the whip to get him going if he slowed down... i took a video of it and as soon as i figure out how to upload it i will just so everyone can see how he acts with me... my mom who filmed most of it was like i've never seen him act this way.. well the way he acts in the video (stubborn, ignoring everything i say, and pushy) is how he acts everyday with me... 

I just dont want to feel like im giving up on him.. and idk that someone will want him with the way he is acting... it was like just one day he decided im gonna stop listening and i havent been able to get him to fully listen or focus since...


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

But girl, your not giving up on him. You are giving him a chance to succeed. Letting him go to someone who is a better fit for him helps him. There is *NO* shame in letting a horse go that is just too much. Its best to let him go where someone can work out his issues. Take it as a lesson learned and move on.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

^^^ Agreed 100% with what Cori said. You are NOT, let me repeat, NOT giving up on this horse. You ARE giving him a second chance. He is very obviously not a good fit for you.

If I were in your situation I would contact a couple of trainers in the area and offer him for sale to them. Make sure they are reliable, experienced, and equipped to deal with his problems. Do not sell him to somebody who thinks "love" will cure the problem or to someone who wants to beat the problem out of him. Possibly call the trainer you had come out and ask if she knows of any experienced horse people who would like to take him on.


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## racinmyself (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry speed racer that my grammar isn't what you want it to be. My point got across all the same. It's not platitudes I'm spouting off about natural horsemanship. I have never had formal training and really don't see the need for it. I live in a rural area and I can't afford it. The things I know I've learn from those TV shows, books, and real life horsemen and women. 

Once again training isn't about the tools it's how you use them. How do you expect the OP to become any kind of horse person if they don't get training right along side their horse? Why in the world would the OP send their horse off for training? How is that solving the problem? 

As for learning I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer that you learn as you do.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

Well she needs to DO with a TRAINER. If you know anything about a subject how do expect to excel in it? I was never one to go to lessons. I learned what I know with horses by trail and error. I never had a trainer. Now that I am older and don't have to have my parents permission to do things I'm taking riding lessons. And I realize how much I DON"T KNOW. IF I had a trainer I would have 4 rideable horses instead of 2. IF I had a trainer I wouldn't have the back problems I do know. I wish I had a trainer when I was younger. I wish that was an option for me. But it wasn't. You have that option. Grab ahold of it. Trust me, you WILL regret it later, whether it's when your laying in a hospital bed or watching that horse go onto a trailer destined for a kill buyer.


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## Alcatrazjmpr (Sep 3, 2010)

I would strongly suggest getting a professional to work with who specializes with problem horses. It sounds like the two of you are not speaking the same language and it sounds like its confusing him. It also sounds like he knows he can get away with a lot so he does. Get help from a trainer or sell him before you or someone else gets hurt. I hope everything works out!


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok so this is how he acts when i tried to lunge him today... if i sound angry im not its just how my voice is... when he changes directions my mom is taping from that point on... so the audio is quieter but its the same thing me telling him to walk, a yank to slow him down, and telling him to walk more.. 





 

Im not sure how to just upload the video so maybe this works...


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok. How much do you like this horse? Is he your dream horse? Other than the lunging issue, how much other trouble does he cause? How many days a week do you ride/exercise him? 

What I am picking up from that video is that he has NO CLUE what you are asking of him. He thinks by lunging you mean RUN! He either has no education in lunging and ground manners or he has too much energy to contain himself. 

How old is he? What is he eating? 

I still stay with the position that finding a professional to help you is the best thing you can do. Second to that is selling him.

ETA: I just went back and reread your OP...how often is he turned out?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Exactly what Cori said. 

I didn't see him do anything terrible, but he does seem very confused about what you want and I saw you blocking his motion several times while lunging him. 

If you really love him and can trust him again at some point. Get a professional trainer to work with both of you. Or send him off for 30 days and get lessons with him before he comes back.

If he isn't your dream horse and/or you won't be able to get over what he's done sell him to an expereinced horse owner so he can have good chance.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I have a theory but Ill need to OP's answer to my few questions before I decide if its worth it or not.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

mjnltnmh said:


> Ok so this is how he acts when i tried to lunge him today... if i sound angry im not its just how my voice is... when he changes directions my mom is taping from that point on... so the audio is quieter but its the same thing me telling him to walk, a yank to slow him down, and telling him to walk more..
> 
> YouTube - Lunging my guy nash for HF
> 
> ...


At 0:32 I see a lunge whip flick out at him. Some horses are great horses to learn to lung on; greenies [to lunging] are not. Lunging is an art, and it needs just as much attention and has just as much a learning curve as riding if you want to do it right. Saying 'walk' in a stern, angry voice while flicking a whip at him is confusing at best. 
Horses work off of verbal commands as well as physical ones. You have to be careful about not only what you say, but how you say it. You have to be very aware of where your body is, and where your shoulders are pointed. In this video, you're telling him to 'whoa, speed up, turn around' all at once at some points.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Agree totally. I also see you "nagging" him. If you ask him to do something, he should do it. If he doesn't there should be consequences. Period. No gray area at all. Horses respond better to that. You need a professional to help you do this right. Your whole stance is not correct for lunging, and you are, as stated, inconsistant, which does confuse him. I will also say that you shoudl keep your talking to a minimum. Sort of like a dog. one word, cluck, kiss, whatever, but mean it. 
I will tell you what I have learned from my trainer this summer watching him with numerous horses. He had one that I swear it took a month to get the horse to walk on a line. Just trotted EVERYWHERE! and the trainer let him. When he finally got tired and walked, he was rewarded with a "good boy" Still when he gets anxious, he trots. With the ones who want to run when he wants a walk-he makes them run. Never hits them, just keeps the pressure on and keeps them going for a few minutes until they finally give in. It takes a lot of time and tons of attention to each horse and what they are telling you. Why they are doing what they are doing.


I do hope you find someone who will work with you and teach you, IF you decide to keep him.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Please please please seek out a trainer who will help you earn this horse's respect! ALL of his behavior is because of blatant disrespect, and right now, he KNOWS without a shadow of a doubt that HE is in charge. Unless you change that, you will not see a positive change in his attitude. No amount of stud chains or 'time outs' are going to help him...he doesn't care about 'pain' persay, he needs a person who's not afraid to take control of him.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hello, Where are you in Ohio. Please send me a PM


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## leonalee (Jul 1, 2010)

Admitting: have not read all of the posts in this thread, mainly just the initial one by the thread-starter and a few down. 

Please do not attempt to lunge a horse who thinks it is okay to kick at you: this will quickly turn into either spinning and kicking at you while you lunge, or charging you. 

I think your best bet is to find a trainer whose training methods you like and respect and ask them to help you and teach you to train/handle your horse.

We had a boarder's horse who, at 14 years of age, thought it was okay to buck in my direction the first time I turned him out (they had just gotten him and brought him to our farm). I didn't get mean or aggressive with him, just persistent. If I opened the gate and he started to try to push ahead of me, I'd quickly make him stop and back up and then immediately go back to opening the gate. Everytime he crowded my space at the gate (before it was ever wide open, or open enough for him to get through), I made him back up then march forward respectfully. Once through the gate, he'd try to run as soon as he felt the weight of the lead gone. Well, a few mock-detachments later he got the idea that you only go when I say go. I also would make him turn and face me at the gate so I had plenty of time to back out of the way and to the other side of the gate if he got stupid. After the mock-detachment period (you should have seen the "Oh man... this is no longer fun!" look he had), I started patting him and loving on him when he stood waiting for me to unhook the lead. This made him stand and wait for me to leave (wanting me to come back and pat him some more, of course). I feel like I pulled something over on him that he'll soon figure out, but it has been over a year now and he knows what is expected when he is attached to me!


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## leonalee (Jul 1, 2010)

Watched the video: not only are you "blocking" his motion, as has been already mentioned, I can clearly see and anticipate that he will be attempting to turn and face you and you kind of just stand there... doing nothing until he has already stopped. You catch the horse and encourage forward movement BEFORE he actually stops! 

You'll learn more about it with a trainer!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*lunging (not lounging)*

I watched the video, and thank you OP for posting that. I commend your courage in openning your self up for critisism. All the things you described in your original post are very dangerous behaviors, especially kicking at you when turned loose. One poster gave a good description of how to handle that (in fact, I would love a personal lesson from her, if she were in my neighborhood).
But what I don't get is this thing called lunging. I don't get what you are trying to get out of it, especially insisting that he go around at a walk in one direction. Since the horse sees no real purpose in your actions, your body language and has an out of balance view of his place with you, then I don't see how having him on a line and going around in circles, and doing it all catywompus is helping anything?! That pen you are working in looks like it might suffice as a "round" pen. Were it me, I'd take that line and chain off, and let him loose and work with him in there loose , move him around, turn him and turn him and turn him and get him think;ing about me and what I WANT HIM to do. I want his MIND. I don't care whether he walks or runs at first, but I want him to have a reaction to what pressure I put on and I want to see a change in his movement that says, "I heard you". 
I would just move him around, faster, slower, turning and eventually, you might see a real change in his attitude such that he says "she means something and I had better pay attention"
There are all kind of ways to round pen. Would be so great if you had somebody help you there because it takes some time to get your body language accurate enough that you are clear with your directions. One can watch videos all day and it still doesn't make it easy.
Anyway, I am just saying that I have never really seen the value of lunging on a line, certainly when the horse's mind isn't with the rider in the first place.
You have been a really good sport listening to all this advice from the four corners of horsemanship. Most everyone is concerned for your safety (me too) and we feel for your dilemma. There's is no shame in admitting you don't know yet how to fix the problem. You can't know until you are taught. I hope you will find some good help. and Let us know if things progress. Nash is a really cute horse.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ Yes, the pen can suffice as some sort of round pen, as it is a small enclosure, but-it is not round! So, OP, it can help you, but PLEASE don't take him off the line. If anything get a rope halter and one of the lines like Parelli/Anderson use. With a rope halter he will feel your pressure better. 
A good trainer can help you learn that. 

Anyway-tiny-I have had a horse jump out of a true round pen, which has sides higher than the fence in the video. That is why I say keep him on the line. You have NO control should he decide to bolt without a line, at least with one, you stand a chance.

If you find the right person to help you this could be a great experience for you, should you decide to go that route.


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Ok. How much do you like this horse? Is he your dream horse? Other than the lunging issue, how much other trouble does he cause? How many days a week do you ride/exercise him?
> 
> What I am picking up from that video is that he has NO CLUE what you are asking of him. He thinks by lunging you mean RUN! He either has no education in lunging and ground manners or he has too much energy to contain himself.
> 
> ...


 

I liked him quite a bit until he tried to hurt me multiple times, No he isnt my dream horse but i do love him i mean, he's a great little guy its just recently i have started to not like him but still love him. Other issues, if i walk him with a leadrope he walks respectfully, if i walk without which as you saw in the video the barn is right there and then theres the arena type thing and the field... i occasionally would walk him with just a halter, but not anymore... umm he is agressive to my arabian gelding.. he tries to tear down his stall, if you go in his stall he tries to eat you.. no joke.. he rears, he bucks, he tries to kick me.. i cant even pet this horse anymore... and his ears are constanly pinned to his skull when he is around anybody.. its not just me.. i dont know why he is so unhappy to be honest...


He does know how to lunge.. when i first got him he did that exact same thing.. for like a minute.. i got him to where he would walk/trot/canter just from voice cues, no whip involved or anything... then he decided he wasnt gonna do this...

He is 7 years old... eats sweet feed, like three fourths of a scoop once a day if he is turned out early in the day day i will feed him at night... since he isnt being turned out at 6:30 anymore since the lady is afraid of him.. he gets a little bit of sweet feed.. if he behaves and doesnt try to charge me when i go in the stall, and then at night he gets the three fourths of a scoop....and he gets as much hay as he wants at night... He is turned out from about... 9:00AM to about... 10:30 PM... i would say... so he gets alot of pasture time.. if i had it my way he would be out 24/7 but i board so i cant do that...


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I just re watched my video.. at the end when i look at the camera and talk i said to you guys.... "if i were to keep persisting that he do this it will get dangerous, he will kick, buck, rear, and do all kinds of things...."


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

In that case, I think it would be best that you let him go. It sounds as if he is not suited to you. Even if you had a trainer come out and work with him and you for a couple months...would you ever completely trust him again?


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

The only time i dont trust him is when he is in his stall just because its would harder to get out of his way if he were to try something...


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I'm going to tell you guys what i _think_ his problem is.... i think someone did something to him... just because he was fine one day and the next he is aggressive towards my other gelding, and being aggressive to me and everyone else except my mom.. he loves her she can walk him he puts his head on her and lets her pet him.. if i get within 15 ft of this horse his ears are back.. he is just unhappy about something with me and i have no clue what it is...


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

It really sounds like he's above your level of knowledge- and that is fine. Sell him to someone more experienced, or pay a good trainer, because if you keep doing what you're doing, you will get hurt. I am willing to bet that he could be trained relatively easily by the right person with more experience. That is not in any way a dig at you. I do not think he's been abused, I think he has gotten away with murder and knows he's the head honcho. Add stall confinement and you've got one energetic, unhappy horse that knows his owner is scared of him. 
HE isn't dangerous- the SITUATION is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

mjnltnmh said:


> if i get within 15 ft of this horse his ears are back.. he is just unhappy about something with me and i have no clue what it is...


Sorry - this is going to hurt -

He doesn't like you. I've seen it a few times over the years. Not everyone is going to get along - humans, horses, dogs, cats, etc.

When I first got married my horse hated my husband. It was the hardest thing in the world to sell a horse I had raised, but I accepted the fact out of the love, health and safety for both of them.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Please please listen to Charis and everyone else on here whose suggested the viable solution is selling this horse. 

He will be happier. You will be happier. Your BO will be happier. It WILL be a better solution for everyone involved.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't think sweet feed is appropriate for him, or alfalfa hay for that matter. 

Even if you were to start getting a professional trainer right now, there would be some time lapse before trainer and horse meet. I am in central Ohio and could recommend some trainers in this area if you are nearby and so inclined. 

He needs to be handled in the meantime, and needs turnout too. I am hearing sometimes that he is agressive only to your other horse, or only to you, and then also that your barn owner is afraid to get him out of his stall.

Is she afraid of him, or does she not want to put him out with other horses. Is he agressive to more of the other horses. Your daily hours available for turnout are plenty enough to split between your 2 if the problem is just between them, one in the am the other in the pm.

I feel like he should be taken to the small pen and worked on line effectively until he is behaving (warmed up, tuned-in, whatever) before walking him down to the gate. I agree with the poster about how to deal with him at the gate, and having him turn towards the gate and stand before removing the clip.

I'd be willing to talk with you privately, and maybe come see him if you are close enough. Why don't you send me a PM?


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

he is only aggressive to my other gelding if anyone touches my other gelding or someone is touching nash (problem gelding) and louie (other gelding) comes over..... maybe he's jealous? but he is sweet with the other horses... and she is afraid of him, she doesnt care about him being out in the field with the other horses since there isnt a problem she is just afraid of him because he knows he can push her around...

I did pm you anndankev lol


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## Arabian Spirit (Oct 2, 2010)

Hi all,

I am mjnltnmh's mom. I've seen first hand how nash acts with her. When she first got him she was the ONLY one who could do anything with him, he trusted her with his life. I havent been to the barn in about a week so I hadn't seen the newest behaviour first hand until yesterday. I agree with the person who says he doesnt like her, in a way. All of a sudden he seems to have started disliking her and I dont understand why he would do that. 

I have worked with horses my entire life, but due to my health and bone problems I dont personally work with them anymore, my daughter does that for me. If she gets stuck she comes to me, if I dont know the answer she gets on here and asks for help, she has gotten some good advice from everyone on here. Now it seems everyone is torn. We cant afford to hire a top notch trainer, or send him away for a month to some trainer who is gonna teach him things that we can teach him ourselves. This is simply a disrespect thing it seems.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

@Arabian Spirit. I don't mean to sound harsh but the reason he acts like he doesn't like her is because he associates her with confusion, frustration, and tension. She confuses him with mixed signals (as was apparent in the video), rewards him for bad behavior (ie. putting him away whenever he acts up), and he cannot understand what she wants when she does handle him, so he is frustrated. She is obviously very tense around him, and he can feel that and reacts with the same tension. Add to that that he is on way too much feed and not enough turnout, and you have a problem that WILL escalate. What he needs is less feed, more exercise and consistent work with someone who is very clear with what they want, and is not nervous around him. This is why everyone is suggesting a professional. We are not questioning your daughter's ability with horses in general, just this particular horse in this particular situation. If you cannot afford to get him the help he needs, it would be best if you let someone have him that could. Best of luck sorting this out.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_^^Agree._


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

I agree with Apachie. You are turning a blind eye to the fact that she is confusing him with mixed signals and it is deepening the tension between them. My old horse Stiffler lunged the EXACT same way right before I decided to sell him. We were both stressed with each other, we'd lost trust in each other and it wasn't a good situation for either of us. Your daughter or the horse or someone else is going to get hurt if you don't snap to reality and realize that this partnership isn't going to work out. The video of you lunging him proves this. Please sell him so someone can give him the time and training he deserves.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I wouldn't even say the horse doesn't "like" you, OP. The problem is that he doesn't respect you. At all. You are letting him walk all over you. The last thing he needs is sweet feed, by the way.

Sell him to an experienced horse person and give him a chance at a good life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Redial (Oct 1, 2010)

I've read everything and watched the video. I've seen this happen multiple times with inexperienced or uneducated riders. They get the horse they love the horse, the horse usually loves them, they starta bond, they get attached and let the horse get away with little things, the horse grows increasingly disrespectful, inexperience and fear rear their heads and the rider/owner responds inappropriately to what could be an easy fix issue, the horse grows more disrespectful and more frustrated. Its confusion grows until it's left without direction, it's a vicious circle that usually ends with the rider not being able to admit they don't have the experience to carry on their horses training so come to the conclusion that it must have been abused or had past trauma, when the truth is different. This horse has you scared, that's ok just admit it, and move on, get a trainer for a couple of week to deal with his issues sell him to an experienced horse person and get yourself something on your level, because I give him a few weeks before he breaks someone's arm and you're in lots of trouble with the police and then he has to get destroyed, i've seen that happen, it's traumatic for all involved and it doesn't have to get to that point. i'd leave him turned out 24/7, blanket him if you have to. stop feeding him high energy feed when he's not doing anything to work it off, if you want to feed him, give timothy hay white chaff and pellets is all he really needs. I wish you the best and I hope this turns out ok, but I'm worried.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts, but when I watched the video, I saw a horse who was looking for direction but was just plain confused and frustrated. The first time you stopped him, he stood quietly, lowered his head and licked his lips. Those are all good signs. Even though he did stop on his own several times, he at least turned in toward you instead of showing you his butt. Again, good thing. Your body language was very confusing to him. At one point you ask him to go to change direction, but are standing at his shoulder which effectively tells him exactly the opposite. Also you body language is loud. A horse this sensitive could easily be longed without any sounds. Poofing up your chest like a rooster would be enough to send him off and exhaling deeply would accomplish the down transition. I think you would benefit greatly from bringing somebody in to show you how to longe him more effectively and how to not send unintended cues with your body. Once your more clear to your horse, things should improve.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I seriously think you need to send this horse to a proper trainer, and you tag along so that you can learn and educate yourself as to how and why and when.

I agree with MyBoyPuck - this horse is very much confused and is trying hard to decipher what it is that you are asking, with no luck.

As Reiner Klimke says "It is not our horses job to learn to speak our language, but it is ours to learn to speak our horses language and to make sure that we are loud and clear as to what we are saying, so that they can better understand what it is that we are asking of them"


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## leonalee (Jul 1, 2010)

Arabian Spirit said:


> All of a sudden he seems to have started disliking her and I dont understand why he would do that... We cant afford to hire a top notch trainer, or send him away for a month to some trainer who is gonna teach him things that we can teach him ourselves. This is simply a disrespect thing it seems.


Arabian Spirit: respectfully, it is obvious it *is not something you can teach him yourselves.* That is very clear from all of the posts and the video: if you can't get past figuring out how to handle him in regards to basic horsemanship (leading properly, entering/leaving stalls and gates properly, etc), then you CAN'T DO IT YOURSELVES; he is above your level and is certainly above your daughters level. The video clearly shows a girl who is frustrated, annoyed and it almost looks like she doesn't care to try. Her posture is "There... I showed the people who will watch this video how badly he behaves"... if you are training a horse, your demeanor needs to be "Lets figure this horse out... my goal is _______, my plan of action is ________", with constant reassessment/arrangement in regards to how your plan is actually working. He has scared her, and it will take someone with more experience than either of you (and someone with the ability to step in and physically take the reins) to help her overcome this. 

Every horse is different; just because you may have successfully handled/trained another horse who had behavior issues does not mean you have the right tools to train _this_ horse by yourselves. 

It is not necessary to send him to a top notch trainer, or even send him away. If you have a local instructor/trainer who is willing to come to your farm once a week to work with your daughter and give her accurate, adequate guidance, and step in/hop on where necessary, that will be your best bet. It will be infinitely cheaper than sending him for training, and you will both learn much more. If you want to keep him. I bet one session with a trainer on ground work will make a world of difference to your daughter: provided she is willing to approach it from a inquisitive, considerate and conscientious manner and not a "This sucks" manner. I think your daughter has the capacity to work with this horse... WITH A TRAINER/INSTRUCTOR. There is NOTHING wrong with having a trainer/instructor help you out. I really don't understand when people are too proud to say someone else with more experience/ability is helping them. The BEST top notch equestrians competing work with trainers, too! I hope either of you do not have this problem...

Please know that I understand every horse/rider/trainer combo have their bad days, and I'm not trying to attack either of you... but you are mistaken in your statement that it is something you can do yourselves.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Arabian Spirit said:


> We cant afford to hire a top notch trainer, or send him away for a month to some trainer who is gonna teach him things that we can teach him ourselves. This is simply a disrespect thing it seems.


If you cannot afford a professional to help, then you need to get rid of the horse and find him a home with someone who _can_ understand him and _can_ help before he seriously hurts either himself or your daughter. No disrespect intended but I believe if you were capable of teaching him the things he needs to know yourselves, then you wouldn't be having the problems you are. A disrespect thing is _never_ simple, it's 1000 pounds of dangerous, especially if you don't know how to fix it.


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## Redial (Oct 1, 2010)

I've been riding for 20 years and breaking/training for 7, I still get horses that i'm scared of or know are too much horse for me and I admit it. there's no shame in saying you can't do it and there's no point in trying to prove you can at the expense of the horse that is just thinking "WTH is happening?" I've sent away quite a few horses to people with more experienc,e better knowledge and a complete disregard for their own mortality. If a horse doesn't like you, it's hard to get it to change its mind. I know you want to tryw ith this horse, that's why you searched out answers, but accepting the situation as above your level is the best bet here. It's like biting into an orange and expecting to taste a banana, no matter how many times you do it, it's always going to taste like an orange. This is what you're doing, going out there and expecting to be able to change a situation that is beyond your natural ability and control. Accept defeat, before defeat accepts you and sends you to hospital.


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## Destinyblooms (Oct 15, 2010)

So I have read most of the post and I have seen your video. I have a 16 hand mare that I got when I was 13 and she was 12. All of my friends, family, riding trainers and I think that she was abused before I got her because of how she acted and looked. Within the first year of me having her she; Bit me, kicked me, threw me over her head braking my arm, she almost kick the farrier's head, she almost broke Misty's (the lady how owns the barn 
I keep her at) hand and she would not "listen" to me at all. We did NOT have and still don't have the money to send her to a "top notch" trainer. Also I did not want to sell her. So what I did was have Misty (who is also a local trainer) watch me when I worked with Bloom. And she would sometimes work with Bloom while I was there to show me and teach me how to correct her behavior. So a BIG part of my advice to you is to find a local trainer that you like and respect. And try to work out something where they watch you work Nash and even give you advice on what you can do and even work with both of you.

Now Nash to me seems like a ever intelligent, strong willed, alpha horse. He reminds me of Misty's 16.3 hand gelding Moony. Moony had to be bottle feed when he was a foal so by the time he was 1 he was doing all of what Nash is doing and more. So when Moony was 3 she got all of the Parelli equipment and stared to self train him because she too could not affored to send him to a trainer. Now keep in mind Misty is only 4'10". But with persistence and showing Moony that SHE was the alpha horse and NOT him she finally got him to where she could control. Durning this time she took him to Congers and placed 5th in halter with only 6 months of training on him when he was 4. And now she is a level 2 Parelli trainer Now i am not telling you this trying to say if you use the Parelli then you will get amazing results. Or that Parelli's training method is the only way to go. Or that you should do all the train by yourself and with no help. What i am trying to say is that no matter what training style you use that you need to show that you are not afraid of him, that he WILL do what you ask and that you ARE the boss. And it would be a very stupid thing for you to work alone. And that you need to be more of an alpha horse and show him that you can make him do what you want. 

Now something i think MIGHT help you are to do the join up exercise. So that you get him to the point where he wants to work with you. It is best to do it in a round pin but a squire pin will work to. Now for the lungeing.. I can see that you are trying to slow him down by wiggling the rope and being slightly in front of him. Also you have a go "aggressive" stance by having you shoulders back saying "I will make you work and you will listen to me." But your "energy" is not matching it. All your energy is say "please slow down". Something all my riding trainers either western or english have all said, "If they are not listening to then give them a good smack to wake them up". So when you ask him to slow down and he at first does not slow down then give him a good pop the rope and if that doesn't work then keep popping him until he slows down or stops. If he stops then ask him to walk off again. If he goes faster then a walk then stop him again and ask him to walk off again. Keep repeating this until he walk a few steps. Now if he tries to change directions on you then block the way he wants to go and pop him a good one to make him go the other way. And if that does not work then keep "bulldogging" him until he goes the way you want him to. Now all of this is tiring so it is a good idea to have one or more experienced horse people there with you so you can take a breather and he still gets worked. Then when you are ready you take back the rope and work with him. Also make sure that everyone is doing the same cues so he doesn't get confused. Now it is always good to end on a good note so if you are working for a long time and he finally slows down to a walk when you ask him to. Then stop him immediately and praise him. Then with each training sessions have him walk for a longer time. 

So I could go on forever about what I think you should do. But I am not there with you so I do not know what is going on first hand. So my advice is find a local trainer that you like and respect that will work with you and Nash. Focus on showing that you are alpha over him and that he will respect you and work A LOT on respect until you can get him to to what ever you want both on the ground and saddle. I wish you and Nash the best of luck. I really respect for not wanting to give up. You will grow more as a horse woman doing this then if you where to send him of somewhere and have someone else work with him. Because a top notch trainer can work with him all they want and he can still come back and act like a butt for you because he knows he can get away with it. You will learn a lot about him and yourself by working with him. Good luck!!! Stay strong and never give up.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

smrobs said:


> If you cannot afford a professional to help, then you need to get rid of the horse and find him a home with someone who _can_ understand him and _can_ help before he seriously hurts either himself or your daughter. No disrespect intended but I believe if you were capable of teaching him the things he needs to know yourselves, then you wouldn't be having the problems you are. A disrespect thing is _never_ simple, it's 1000 pounds of dangerous, especially if you don't know how to fix it.


Whole heartedly agree with this!!! It's not a matter of "if" this horse is going to hurt someone, it's "when and how bad"...


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

mom2pride said:


> Whole heartedly agree with this!!! It's not a matter of "if" this horse is going to hurt someone, it's "when and how bad"...


Ultimately it won't be the horse's fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

ok so i was told by someone in the barn i board at that i should just get on him and go, hes so short that it wont be a very far fall.... i just looked at her.. hes already thrown me off once... and it was a bronco type spin.. if i end up keeping him and working thru it im not getting on him until i know for sure that we trust each other...


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

And how do you expect his behavior to be any better with no riding? You again are rewarding him for his bad behavior. You really aren't going to get it. This horse is going to hurt you or someone else and all you will continue to say is "he's a dangerous horse!" 

We've tried to be nice and helpful but it's been pretty much like talking to a brick wall. Stop trying to downplay this. Sell the poor horse before he gets euthanized because he hurts you because you give him mixed signals like in the video and he flips his lid. 

Yes, this is rude and I know it. But it kills me when a horse is pushed to this level of behavior because someone who doesn't have the appropraite level of knowledge refuses to seek professional help or find a ride better suited to their riding level. Hope you have good insurance.


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Im trying to fricken sell the horse he has been posted on every horse sale site for a week! no one wants him!!! i dont want to send him to a fricken auction because i know whats gonna happen... so until i find someone to take him from my i will continue to try to work with him... half of you say work with him half of you say sell him! I CANT SELL HIM! I'VE BEEN TRYING! god its like everyone on here thinks im some stupid little girl who has this idea in her head that love will cure all.. and that isnt it at all i want to find this horse another home because he isnt happy with me and with my moms health problems she cant work him and he only doesnt like me he loves everyone else that walks up to him everyone else can rub all over him and kiss him and brush him and do whatever they want with him but he pins his ears back at me and at my barn owner...


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

^^sorry amarea... im stressed i just had to put a 7 week old puppy down yesterday... im just tired of crap....


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

PM me a link to his ads. I will be more than happy to give you some pointers on getting him sold.

And speaking from personal experience, not all auctions are bad. I bought my 2 girls from an auction in August.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

It may be the wording in your ad or you may be asking too much.

Sometimes you just have to take a hit on a horse.

My new pony, Lily was bought by the previous owner 1 month before I bought her for $750 more than I paid for her. They also paid $400 to have her shipped. They lost over (counting feed expenses) $1150 on this horse. But she was too much for them and they knew it, they just wanted her gone. Preferably to someone who could fix her. Not that she is terrible by any means, but not worth what they paid for her. You may be in the same position.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

^^ I totally agree. At some point, we all lose money on horses. Its a hard thing to do but occasionally you have to do it.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

*GIVE* hime to someone who can handle him. Preferably a trainer.


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I have already lost money on him im just asking what i have in him vet bill wise... Im asking 300 for him... Which around here is CHEAP
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Maybe your ad isn't worded well. Do you have a link to it and maybe we can help?


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

You might only be asking $300 for him, but at what point is it going to be cheaper to give him away? How much is your monthly board? If it takes 2 months to sell him- which isn't unreasonable- at $200/month board, which is cheap, you're losing $50 trying to make your money back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

mjnltnmh said:


> he has been posted on every horse sale site for a week! no one wants him!!!


Where are the links? I have looked at at least a dozen sites today and haven't found him yet. Why haven't you posted him here in the for sale section if you want him sold?


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok so i took down all my ads and am reposting them later today... i do have a question about what could be the cause of all of this... Remember when i said that i went away and my mom and dad took care of him? well i guess the first day nash was deathly afraid of my dad, the second day he ran right up to him and walked politly with him... yesterday i was out at the barn working my arabian.. i had gone out to the field and nash had walked up to me and sniffed me so i stood there and he let me pet him for a second.. then he walked away... 

Well my mom went out to see louie in the field and thought i had said i was gonna work nash, so she brought him in... i didnt plan on lunging him but i did take the oppurtunity to pet him and talk to him, showing him that he doesnt have to hate me and that im not gonna hurt him.. and the ears were pinned off and on this whole time.. so my mom comes out and takes over petting him and stuff and his ears are a little more perked with her petting him. I asked my dad to come out and mess with him because i hadnt seen yet how nash acted with him... the fricken horse turned to putty in my dads hands.. he dropped his head, let him pet whatever he wanted my dad ran his hands all over him messed with his tail.. i was amazed... 

Could nash have switched owners in his mind? or does he just like men better? or did he decide my dad is the alpha and im not anything?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Charis said:


> You might only be asking $300 for him, but at what point is it going to be cheaper to give him away? How much is your monthly board? If it takes 2 months to sell him- which isn't unreasonable- at $200/month board, which is cheap, you're losing $50 trying to make your money back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a point that so many horse people seem to forget when they are selling.


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I pay $100 for board


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

Wow, that's a steal of a deal. So in 1 month, you'd be making $200. In 2 months you'd be making $100. At the third month, you would be breaking even. Add farrier and potential vet care on top of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

mjnltnmh said:


> Ok so i took down all my ads and am reposting them later today... i do have a question about what could be the cause of all of this... Remember when i said that i went away and my mom and dad took care of him? well i guess the first day nash was deathly afraid of my dad, the second day he ran right up to him and walked politly with him... yesterday i was out at the barn working my arabian.. i had gone out to the field and nash had walked up to me and sniffed me so i stood there and he let me pet him for a second.. then he walked away...
> 
> Well my mom went out to see louie in the field and thought i had said i was gonna work nash, so she brought him in... i didnt plan on lunging him but i did take the oppurtunity to pet him and talk to him, showing him that he doesnt have to hate me and that im not gonna hurt him.. and the ears were pinned off and on this whole time.. so my mom comes out and takes over petting him and stuff and his ears are a little more perked with her petting him. I asked my dad to come out and mess with him because i hadnt seen yet how nash acted with him... the fricken horse turned to putty in my dads hands.. he dropped his head, let him pet whatever he wanted my dad ran his hands all over him messed with his tail.. i was amazed...
> 
> Could nash have switched owners in his mind? or does he just like men better? or did he decide my dad is the alpha and im not anything?


 
what about this?


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

Personally, at this point, I think you are still trying to justify everything in your mind and to continue to make excuses for him. Your dad isn't his owner, you are. He obviously doesn't respect you and for safety sake, I think you need to sell him. I don't know where in OH you are but if you are near Indiana, I suggest taking him to the Shipshewana horse auction on Friday. You may not get what you want out of him but at least he wouldn't put you in danger anymore.


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## JustPaint (Sep 27, 2010)

mjnltnmh said:


> I pay $100 for board


Whoa, that's nice!


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Amarea,

Im not making excuses i want to sell the horse, as i said when i got on her today i took down my ads so i can repost them all.... i just would like to know why the heck my horse decided he didnt like me anymore.. and when i said could he think my dad is his owner i meant could he believe my dad is the leader? i know im the horses fricken owner...


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Your horse doesn't like you anymore because he is confused by what you ask of him. This is stressful for horses and they will generally avoid a confusing (i.e. unpredictable in their minds) situation or person. Your dad isn't confusing to Nash, he understands what your dad wants of him and it stays the same.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

^ Agreed 110%. 

Your video showed exactly why he doesn't "like" you. You confused him and the reactions you are getting are that of a confused horse who just doesn't understand what you want of him. You are stressing him out which is frustrating him. Like MN said, he knows what your dad wants of him. 

I'm sorry you are having an issue knowing that this is being caused because you've confused and frustrated him. Use it as a learning situation. There's no reason to get mad about it as you clearly are. Seek the advice of a trainer on how to lunge properly to help avoid the same thing happening with any new horse you buy.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sunny said:


> I wouldn't even say the horse doesn't "like" you, OP. The problem is that he doesn't respect you. At all. You are letting him walk all over you. The last thing he needs is sweet feed, by the way.
> 
> Sell him to an experienced horse person and give him a chance at a good life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can respect someone with out having any feeling for them. This horse has gone the next step down from respect to dislike. Most trainers/clients to not have a "like" relationship - it's mutual respect.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

mjnltnmh said:


> Ok so i took down all my ads and am reposting them later today... i do have a question about what could be the cause of all of this... Remember when i said that i went away and my mom and dad took care of him? well i guess the first day nash was deathly afraid of my dad, the second day he ran right up to him and walked politly with him... yesterday i was out at the barn working my arabian.. i had gone out to the field and nash had walked up to me and sniffed me so i stood there and he let me pet him for a second.. then he walked away...
> 
> Well my mom went out to see louie in the field and thought i had said i was gonna work nash, so she brought him in... i didnt plan on lunging him but i did take the oppurtunity to pet him and talk to him, showing him that he doesnt have to hate me and that im not gonna hurt him.. and the ears were pinned off and on this whole time.. so my mom comes out and takes over petting him and stuff and his ears are a little more perked with her petting him. I asked my dad to come out and mess with him because i hadnt seen yet how nash acted with him... the fricken horse turned to putty in my dads hands.. he dropped his head, let him pet whatever he wanted my dad ran his hands all over him messed with his tail.. i was amazed...
> 
> Could nash have switched owners in his mind? or does he just like men better? or did he decide my dad is the alpha and im not anything?


Horses don't think like that. No, he didn't "switch" owners.... I am willing to bet that your dad has a bit more agressive body language (most men do, they aren't as soft) and thats what Nash needs. Since he was first wary of your dad and now is good for him, Nash is responding to his body language and obviously feels he is more of a leader.
I just wanted to touch on your last question since no one else had yet.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

mls said:


> You can respect someone with out having any feeling for them. This horse has gone the next step down from respect to dislike. Most trainers/clients to not have a "like" relationship - it's mutual respect.


 
I would agree with this, he is actively trying to warn her off. He doesn't want her anywhere around him. That's a little more than lack of respect in my opinion. I've seen horses that don't have respect for someone and still like them. 

Soda is a prime example with some of my friends/family. He "loves" them but walks all over them. Wouldn't hurt them for anything, but doesn't do anything they tell him. 

He also dislikes another one of my friends, BUT he does respect her. He does what she says, but won't choose to be around her. 

He likes and respects me. He chooses to be around me when he isn't asked, he will groom me if I allow it. But he moves when I tell him, does what I say, and trusts me to "protect" him. He's aware of and responds to my position in the pasture when I'm in the pasture. 

Horses can have any combination of like/dislike and respect/lack of respect for a person. It sounds like Nash doesn't respect or like you. I'm sorry to say it, but that's what I see in the video and what I read.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

mls said:


> You can respect someone with out having any feeling for them. This horse has gone the next step down from respect to dislike. Most trainers/clients to not have a "like" relationship - it's mutual respect.


I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me because, unless I misunderstood your post, we're having the same thoughts. :lol:
What I meant by my first sentence was that everyone was screaming, "He doesn't like you, he doesn't like you!" and I was trying to say that it isn't just that he doesn't like her, he disrespects her. Sorry if I was unclear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

mjnltnmh said:


> what about this?


Since horses are now domesticated animals, as a horse trainer, I do NOT make 'excuses' for a horse's change in behavior, especially ones such as yours is exhibiting. Plain and simply put this horse has your number and he knows how to dial it...so he does, frequently. As far as your parents...well he liked you at some point, so I'm not going to take that to mean anything; this horse needs someone who will gain his respect and work to truly keep it, not just tell him it's okay to be a jerk to who ever he pleases. He needs hard work, not just love and scratches on the nose when HE dictates it.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

*Do you want help, as the thread is titled ?*

I've made 3 or 4 efforts to contact you, have discovered our horses are less than 5 miles from each other, have sent you my phone number by PM, have now sent a PM to your Mom (just in case you didn't tell her), and asked her to call me, too. I've received no calls.

I'm no professional, not a trainer, I have not been condensending or critical, or talked down to you. It is really not you I'd like to see if I can help, it is your horse. I can give you references from Barn Owners and trainers in the area that will attest to my character and level of horsemanship.

I am familiar with many facilities around here, but do not recognize your barn from the photo's, but I have mostly been south of town, not north around the Walmart Distribution center. However, it is likely that I know someone at your barn.

Do you want help?

For the group: there are several places around here that will rent stalls for $100 per mo, they usually are less service than partial board - I call it self service. Generally for that price you get a stall but have to bring in all hay, feed, bedding, do the feeding, watering, turn-out yourself.

I was at a really great place for 3 years where the BO took orders for hay and feed, had it delivered, and collected money from the boarders to give the feed store ..., bulk bedding was available and an honor system in place where you signed a list on the wall when you took a wheelbarrow full. She had a small indoor, outdoor, round pen. The BO did the watering and feeding, too and she would turn-out upon request for $1 per day. Biggest drawback: she only permitted 2 hours of turn-out per day.


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## justinebee (Jul 21, 2010)

Okay so I'm a little behind since I skipped a few pages  I got impatient haha

I watched your lunging video. The biggest thing I see is your body position with him. Horses are very in tune with what our body is telling them (even when we don't think we are telling them anything). I'm pretty good with lunging-not trying to brag at all, just saying I understand the concept of it pretty well (the horse I work with lunges with nothing but where I position my body. no vocal cues, no whip, no rope). When you overstep a horse's front leg, you are telling them to slow down or stop. You want to stay just behind that front leg. When you understep the leg too much, you are getting closer to their rear (with lunge whip in hand), which is signaling them to go faster. In some parts of the video, you are understepping your horses front leg, and you can see the horse begin to run faster. In addition to that, when he begins to go faster, you aren't overstepping him to stop him (so he doesn't stop). Also, getting in closer to the horses's rear increases pressure, which causes him to run. Stepping away releases the pressure. When you run at your horse in the beginning of the video, you are telling him "GO!", but then you yell "WALK!" at him right after. This is confusing to him, not because he understands English, but because he doesn't know why you are yelling at him in a scolding tone.

Remember, though the lunge whip is a wonderful tool, it shouldn't be the only thing which is controlling the horse. You need to combine it with body communication. You hould get a trainer who can show you how to properly lunge him. It's an important skill and can strengthen or weaken your relationship with your horse.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

anndankev said:


> I've made 3 or 4 efforts to contact you, have discovered our horses are less than 5 miles from each other, have sent you my phone number by PM, have now sent a PM to your Mom (just in case you didn't tell her), and asked her to call me, too. I've received no calls.
> 
> I'm no professional, not a trainer, I have not been condensending or critical, or talked down to you. It is really not you I'd like to see if I can help, it is your horse. I can give you references from Barn Owners and trainers in the area that will attest to my character and level of horsemanship.
> 
> ...


wow. What an offer. This poster has gone above and beyond trying to contact you and help, OP. I hope you take this opportunity to learn. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

anndankev said:


> I've made 3 or 4 efforts to contact you, have discovered our horses are less than 5 miles from each other, have sent you my phone number by PM, have now sent a PM to your Mom (just in case you didn't tell her), and asked her to call me, too. I've received no calls.
> 
> I'm no professional, not a trainer, I have not been condensending or critical, or talked down to you. It is really not you I'd like to see if I can help, it is your horse. I can give you references from Barn Owners and trainers in the area that will attest to my character and level of horsemanship.
> 
> ...


OMG. im so sorry i forgot to call you i had your number in my phone and it slipped my mind ive been having a bad week/weekend and forgot.. i tried calling you today when i read this but no one answered i will try calling again tomorrow... what is the best time to call you?

About my barn.... i provide everything myself, they turn out if the BO has time in the morning, they will fill water buckets/feed and bring in if we need them too and the horses get as much turn out as they want as long as they arent out all night... 12 acres of pure pasture so i like it... i dont know that you would know anyone at my barn tho.. its me and my mom the BO and the BO cousin... just 5 stall horse barn really little and quiet


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## leonalee (Jul 1, 2010)

Let us know how your guys' meeting goes! Hopefully being able to be there in person with an extra set of "outside" eyes will help you guys figure out something new (since, even though you have him for sale, you still need to be able to safely handle him in the mean-time)!


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

So anndankev and i met last night... it was fun and interesting to see how someone who doesnt know nash worked with him... lol i like her style of work but i dont know that it is for us... i did however do what someone on another thread said about when a horse does something that you dont want him to do MAKE him do it more.. like the running when i ask for a walk, i made him canter until he willingly walked again =) and he did great lol he still looks angry just not as much..

Anndankev says that i should keep trying to sell him, but that the people who are gonna want him are gonna be people looking for a kid safe horse and he is defintly not kid safe.. so i will probably keep him through the winter while continuing to work with him, and see how it goes...


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

mjnltnmh said:


> but that the people who are gonna want him are gonna be people looking for a kid safe horse and he is defintly not kid safe..


It will depend on how you market him. If he is not kid safe - do not market to that audience.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

How tall is he again? He was in the 14 hh range if I remember right. I would think a smaller adult rider, or even a capable older teenager with experience handling a variety of horses could safely take him on. He appears stout enough that he could safely handle a smaller adult, with no problems. Even a taller one, that is not real heavy should be fine. The key in advertising is making sure to state that he is not a kids horse. Someone looking for a project may snap him up if you are willing to take a hit on him, price wise. I know when I look for project horses, I refuse to pay more than 500$ for it, especially if it's a horse that needs ALOT of work...


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

If you were in my area and I could afford to feed him over the winter I would take him on in a second. Not sure why you think people would want him for a kids horse.... 

Advertise him as a project horse, $300 obo. Get some good pics of him, confo shots and some "action" shots. Somebody will snap him up, I'm sure.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I went out to see Nash late Wednesday night, he is very small I would say a pony. My horse is 14.1 and I can put my arm over his back without reaching up. Nash is at least 5 inches short of this, he has a big grass lower belly, but is very ribby higher up with a raised backbone, needing muscle and toning badly. His feet looked good and well trimmed; however his front legs are prominently benched. I do not feel he will make a suitable mount for an adult. The owner indicated she is interested in trail riding, she is a young woman and not too large. I said she could probably ride Nash ok, but as she has a nice size 18 year old Arabian there I would think he would make a better horse for her and what she wants to do. I did say anyone looking for a horse Nash's size would be wanting a horse for a child, and he would probably not be saleable unless he was child-safe.

I asked to work him online and she wanted to lunge him herself first to show that the video was not a good example of what she does. She did a lot of slapping the ground behind him with the whip while gripping the line about 5-6 feet from his nose, giving him no place to go. With no body language cues that I could see. He did move as best he could, when she got a little quieter with the whip he did walk a bit, or stop. I did not feel she had much gait or direction control , and did not get him out on a circle any bigger than 6 feet from herself. When she stopped I did tell her it was much better than the video, it was -- he had not challenged her. I guess she must have made him canter until he willingly walked again during the 30 seconds or so that it took for me to walk to my car and get my halter and line.

I advised her that I work with natural horsemanship methods, and do not even know how to properly "lunge". The cues I use are different, for example I put pressure on the hindquarters/flank area to ask for them to turn toward me and stop, rather than to go faster. And I told her I have been told so many times that I will ruin a horse, that I mostly work with horses that have already been ruined so that I will not cause any great loss if I'm doing something wrong. 

He moved his hindquarters off finger pressure fairly well, much more resistance with the front feet, but after releasing pressure when I got a cross over step in front about 3 times I could see he would improve. I sent him out on a circle with driving pressure to the neck/shoulder area, he went out well increased gait to trot, so I stopped him and started again until he walked at full length of the line calmly about twice around, then turned him the other way and repeat, then turned him the other way and trotted, then the other way. He was moving well with some slack in the line as I like, not pulling out or trying to run off. I even passed the line behind me once or twice. When asking him to disengage and turn and stop at first he would try to go faster, I moved some towards him increasing pressure on his hip without pulling on his face and the first time actually had to touch him on the flank with the tip of the stick before he moved hip away and stopped. Release of pressure, stand a minute, lip licking. Much improvement over the course of the 15 minutes the entire session took. He was paying attention and willing to do what I asked.

So I recommend that she continue to work with him while trying to sell him, to improve his chances of finding a good home. She said he had worked better with me than she had seen him work with anybody since she has had him, wanted to know how much money I would want to continue. I said I am not qualified to be a trainer or instructor, I have a soft spot for bald face black overo's and I would just come over and work with him for 2-3 weeks for nothing if she would start to learn nh herself by reading and such, and she could watch me work with him as well. Also I invited her to my barn try working a bit with Elwood, who would respond as soon as she got the moves correct. Then after a bit we could review and see where to go from there.

I feel like Nash is just a poor little pony who is looking for a leader. He has been sick lately and likely to have been shuffled around between owners/horse traders and has finally looked to himself to be the leader, but he is not up to the job.


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I kept him reeled in because i was taught that a horse has to earn the right to go out, and when he did walk when i asked he got to go out on a bigger circle... its harder for "most" horses, from what ive seen, to canter or trot fast on a small little circle..


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

The horse needs room to be able to move. If they can't balance properly on a 20m circle, they will be even more unbalanced on a 6' line, and therefore will have to [note: have to, not want to!] speed up in order to keep balanced. It seems to me that you do need to either let this horse go to an experienced horseperson, or get someone to work with you on a regular basis.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Ann&Kev - It seems you give a pretty good advisory service, complete with practical aid. All promptly given and free of charge plus a written report.
Amazing 

Nicely done. It is good to think that there are knowledgeable folks willing to help. 

Luckily we have British Horse Society affiliated riding clubs in Britain where advice is freely available.

Advice given over the internet may sometimes help in a situation but nothing replaces hands on advice. It is difficult enough to read a horse's mind when standing in front of it - over the internet there is little chance to accurately assess what is going wrong in the relationship between horse and handler.

But I think the way forward remains the same - MJN should continue to try to find the little chap a new home where he hopefully he can find some knowledgeable and tender loving care.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What a well written report and sounds like a produtive session for all concerned. That is so cool that a total stranger offered help and the owner graciously accepted. Neat!
One thing that kind of made me ***** up my ears; I have never heard a trainer say that a horse had to "earn the right to "anything. It is , for me, a totally foreign concept in regard to training a horse. Anyone else heard this concept used?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Nope...A disrespectful horse is a disrespectful horse, and you're darn right I will be trying hard to get that horse OUT of my space, rather than keeping him within 6 ft of me at all times. Lol! Now with some stuff, like being had fed, a horse will have to prove to me (via not being pushy or rude) that he can handle being handfed. But most other stuff...no...


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

*Looking for Ponies Ad on Columbus craigslist*

columbus craigslist > for sale / wanted > farm & garden 
please flag with care: 

miscategorized 
prohibited 
spam/overpost 
best of craigslist 


_Avoid scams and fraud by dealing locally!_ Beware any deal involving Western Union, Moneygram, wire transfer, cashier check, money order, shipping, escrow, or any promise of transaction protection/certification/guarantee. More info
*Looking for Ponies*

Date: 2010-10-24, 5:12AM EDT
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]



Looking to buy a few Ponies. Should atleeast be halter borke . Prefer they are broke to ride or drive . Under 14 hands. 
Reasonably priced ! Email description of Pony , location , price and contact info. 
Thanks.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

Color me surprised.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm confused...?


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

She's apparently looking for ponies and doesn't mind if they aren't broken beyond halter broke. Perhaps this is how she came to acquire Nash in the first place?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

::shocked::


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

How are we sure that's the OP? I'm CL dumb.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Anndankev posted that _*for*_ the OP..... a possible, future new home for Nash.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

Ah that is quite possible! I was thinking it was a posting the OP had put up.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

anndankev said:


> I went out to see Nash late Wednesday night, he is very small I would say a pony. My horse is 14.1 and I can put my arm over his back without reaching up. Nash is at least 5 inches short of this, he has a big grass lower belly, but is very ribby higher up with a raised backbone, needing muscle and toning badly. His feet looked good and well trimmed; however his front legs are prominently benched. I do not feel he will make a suitable mount for an adult. The owner indicated she is interested in trail riding, she is a young woman and not too large. I said she could probably ride Nash ok, but as she has a nice size 18 year old Arabian there I would think he would make a better horse for her and what she wants to do. I did say anyone looking for a horse Nash's size would be wanting a horse for a child, and he would probably not be saleable unless he was child-safe.
> 
> I asked to work him online and she wanted to lunge him herself first to show that the video was not a good example of what she does. She did a lot of slapping the ground behind him with the whip while gripping the line about 5-6 feet from his nose, giving him no place to go. With no body language cues that I could see. He did move as best he could, when she got a little quieter with the whip he did walk a bit, or stop. I did not feel she had much gait or direction control , and did not get him out on a circle any bigger than 6 feet from herself. When she stopped I did tell her it was much better than the video, it was -- he had not challenged her. I guess she must have made him canter until he willingly walked again during the 30 seconds or so that it took for me to walk to my car and get my halter and line.
> 
> ...



Well, I was gonna put in my two cents, but it looks like you guys have worked it out!  I hope everything works out with Nash one way or another.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes you are right ImagineThat, I posted that as a lead for a possible buyer for Nash.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

Oh! I gotcha now! Good thinking!


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Judging by your video I would suggest you buy an older dead-broke horse that has lots of experience (and won't frustrate you). You tend to express your frustration through tensity and your horse can sense that. He's already confused... no need to make it worse by scaring him. He's very pretty.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Here is another Craigslist ad

*Fall Pony Sale October 30 - 9:00 Am (Danville, Ohio )*

Date: 2010-10-25, 9:25AM EDT
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]


 
Fall Pony Sale 
Ponies, Minis, and Horses. 

Will take consignments up to the day of the sale. 
Many Minis Already consigned. 

New and used Tack sells at 9:00. 

Please call 740-599-6607 if you have any questions. 

Danville Auction 
15780 Body Rd. 
Danville, Ohio 43014


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

Ive contacted the person looking for ponies on cl.. no response i sent pictures, two contact numbers for me and information on nash.. no luck yet...


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

*DRUM ROLL* I SOLD NASH!! he is going to a family that trains horses and then leases them out to 4h kids who cant afford a horse of their own, this 17 year old girl comes out to the barn were he is lunges him, hes a total butt about it, i go to answer my phone i come back and she is jumping up on him.. and he was perfect. They picked up his feet and he let them, they rubbed all over him and he loved it, and he tried to follow them out the gate.. they come to get him on saturday =))


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Congratulations!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok, I read until about page 7 and got tired so I'll just post my thoughts at this point and then read backwards.

I don't think the horse hates you.
I don't think the chain was a bad idea, abusive, horrible, awful, etc.

What I do see in the video is a horse that doesn't know how to lunge. He needs more ground work. 

In my opinion,
He needs to spend time tied to a "thinking post". I mean he needs to spend a half hour to an hour a day tied to a strong post.
He also needs to be seperated from "the heard" for a while. Putting a horse in solitary confinement is a very humbling experience. He needs to be humbled.
You do need help. You may not need a full blown trainer, but you need help. I was having issues with my gelding when he was about 17 months. I paid a guy to come out everyday and help me teach him manners. There was no abuse involved but there was a "dominance" sort of training that went on. He was taught that the person is in control. Now, I'm timid on the ground so I've had to go back for help several times, my horse isn't bad, just big.

You keep saying he's only 14 something hands. That doesn't matter. at 14 hands he still weighs about 800 lbs. That's a big animal. You need to take this seriously. I'm not ready to say quit on him yet, but I do agree, you need some help. Just someone that knows how to deal with these issues.

Also, for those of you giving her a hard time about a sale. I had a pony that would rear and was dangerous. I never did sell her. I ended up trading her with my trainer (who knew her issues). I couldn't rightfully sell her without being completely honost with the buyer. Telling someone a 12 h pony is a rearer is a big turn off....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

oopsie... horse sold... never mind.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

No never mind farm. Good post. It can help others.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Sounds like Nash will be very happy with his new home. Congrats.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Congrats, that's really good news for both of you!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

That's great news, congrats.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I'm so glad you have found someone who can work with the horse!!! Best wishes to them and to you in your horse search (assuming you are looking for a new one of course!!!).


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## mjnltnmh (Sep 19, 2010)

I think im gonna wait until spring.. i just got a new job and i dont want to have to worry about whether or not im spending enough time with a new pony.. so i will wait


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I think that sounds like a smart decision. It will also give you time to save up a bit, so you have more options when you are ready.


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