# Bay is boring.



## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

He's brown, not bay. He's very cute though, nonetheless. An absolutely adorable face!
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## TownesThatBigChestnut (Sep 8, 2013)

Bay is classic and elegant.

How I ended up with this copper penny chestnut, I'll never know.
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

lower legs and ears look black to me. I'll go with a bay.

I was also a non bay fan. Everybody has bays. When I bred my mare I got a bay w/ no white markings. Amazing how beautiful they are when you love them!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> lower legs and ears look black to me. I'll go with a bay.


Brown horses also have black points.

OP - I also think your horse is brown. We have a thread somewhere in this section for the Bad *** Browns.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

From the summer photo he is almost certainly bay, what shade is variable.


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## DraftOn (Dec 4, 2013)

I must say, I disagree ... A bay----by definition----is a brown horse, with black tips (socks) and a black mane and tail. This horse certainly fits that category! Beautiful boy you've got there!
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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

^^ The discussion above is why I don't understand the difference between browns and bays. I have decided it's just personal preference lol. 

In any case, he's a pretty boy.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

No..those are charactaristics, not genetics. The horse is genetically brown, not bay. I have a brown that you would SWEAR is a bay in the summer, but winter coat says otherwise, all soft points are lighter, thus making her (and him) a brown.

Also, I think his legs look more of a dark brown than black in the summer picture.
Nonetheless, a beautiful horse.

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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Whoops, replied instead of editted!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

DraftOn said:


> I must say, I disagree ... A bay----by definition----is a brown horse, with black tips (socks) and a black mane and tail. This horse certainly fits that category! Beautiful boy you've got there!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet horses that have been genetically certified to be brown also have black points.




























These horses have all been genetically tested, and are all BROWN not bay.


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

So he's possibly just plain ol brown. I have to reevaluate everything I thought I knew about Bay, lol. Here is a better picture of him I took a few days ago. And wow! Who knew what a great feeling it is when people tell you your horse is cute, thank you for those comments. I thought a big sign of a bay horse was the solid black leg markings--- most importantly no white on the legs?, along with black mane and tail.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Genetic brown (At) and bay (A) are both agouti forms. Which means they both restrict black to the points. This is why both bays and browns have black points, because they are both black based horses with agouti restricting their black. But they are genetically different agouti forms. And both have phenotypic identifiers.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Btw I see mousey gray pangare on the OP's horse instead of brown. Though it's possible to be both brown with pangare.
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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I think he looks bay with pangare, he stays way too bay looking in the winter and his points are orange like a brown.
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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Pangare! I googled images and came up with this guy. They look similar up close. In the summer.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

SullysRider said:


> I think he looks bay with pangare, he stays way too bay looking in the winter and his points are orange like a brown.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Supposed to be aren't*
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Here is my colt Jet he has pangare.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I think the second picture shows well how he could be bay with pangare, he is super light on the muzzle.

ETA Thought I'd clarify that I'm talking about the OP's horse. I think in the recent picture he looks it too, just hard to see on the face since he has a lot of white there. He also has the lightness on his legs to go along with pangare. I attached a head shot of my brown gelding to compare to, browns have orangey points.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I see brown in the paler soft points, and also in the change from summer to winter coat. As well as that, the darker topline screams brown to me too.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Beautiful horse!
I have yet to see a horse be classified as bay on this site.
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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

For what it's worth, I see bay.

I really like bays. I think they are lovely


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I've never seen a genetically confirmed brown with that light of points on their legs, that definitely screams pangare. Plus he stays light on the winter, all the browns I've seen get dark in the winter.
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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I LOVE brown and bay there was a time when I really disliked them and I still love my duns, roans, greys and buckskins, but I seem to attract bays.:shock:. I ended up with my bay arab(in foal to a bay thoroughbred), a bay appaloosa, and now I'm in love with my BO's little bay qh.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

DraftOn said:


> I must say, I disagree ... A bay----by definition----is a brown horse, with black tips (socks) and a black mane and tail. This horse certainly fits that category! Beautiful boy you've got there!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is one reason why I prefer the term "seal bay" to brown (and technically it should be seal brown- not just "brown"- anyway, since that's what the researchers who identified the gene dubbed it). Seal bay and classic bay (and wild bay!) are very similar because they're variations of the same gene. They all restrict the expression of black on a horse's body, but in slightly different ways. They all end up having black "hard" points (mane, tail, legs). The rest of the body is what's different, with seal bay being characterized largely by cinnamon-colored "soft" points (muzzle, flank) and significant seasonal variation.

I disagree when people say "brown" isn't "bay." It's just a different form of bay than the "classic" bay. Wild bays aren't nearly as common, but you never see people arguing that a horse isn't bay because it's wild bay


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## peppersonlygirl (Jan 21, 2014)

Oh I thought seal bay was a near-black body color.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> I disagree when people say "brown" isn't "bay." It's just a different form of bay than the "classic" bay. Wild bays aren't nearly as common, but you never see people arguing that a horse isn't bay because it's wild bay


I disagree with calling brown a different form of bay. Just because they are mutations of the same allele doesn't mean they are the same colour. Look at the multitude of KIT mutations - are we going to start calling them all tobiano? Roan, Sabino 1, all the known DW, probably rabicano too, are all on that one loci... Doesn't mean they are the same colour.


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## Houston (Apr 15, 2012)

Brown, Bay. Whatever he is- he's a beauty. :lol:

Bay/Brown/Whathaveyou has turned into a simple, classic, clean color for me. I also used to think bays/browns/whathaveyous were boring. Especially after my gorgeous buckskin lease horse.

Until I fell in love with my current bay/brown/whathaveyou Arab mare. Very little white/chrome; just a small star on her forehead. Now I think it's the most fantastic color ever- HA! Funny how that works.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> I disagree with calling brown a different form of bay. Just because they are mutations of the same allele doesn't mean they are the same colour. Look at the multitude of KIT mutations - are we going to start calling them all tobiano? Roan, Sabino 1, all the known DW, probably rabicano too, are all on that one loci... Doesn't mean they are the same colour.


I get your point there, and perhaps being located at the same locus isn't enough to group them in one category. However, classic/seal/wild bay all essentially do the same thing- restrict the expression of black- and can be very difficult to distinguish visually, especially in the summer.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

My horse is Black with Brown Agouti, Bay Agouti, Wild Agouti......


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