# Equine Meat at my Local Grocer



## livvsabourin (Jan 18, 2014)

Hi, not sure if anyone has info or advice as far as this issue is concerned. I am a horse-person but more importantly longtime horse-lover from Ontario, Canada. My family has long been involved in the equine industry in a variety of areas but most specifically insofar as Thoroughbred racing (my Dad was a jockey at Woodbine for a number of years). The struggles which have recently been seen by horse-racing have been a major area of concern for me lately but most recently hit home in a very significant way when I saw horse-meat being sold at my local grocery. I know that with the challenges that Ontario racing is facing right now, horse-slaughter is becoming more and more common in Ontario. That being said, I do recognize that this has been an issue for a very long time and I regret that it is only now becoming very evident to myself as a primarily racehorse focussed person. Anyways, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by the casual availability of horse meat at my local grocery store and was wondering if anyone had any advice as far as what I might do i.e) via petition might I be able to stop it/I was planning on writing a letter to the owner of the store (it is privately owned rather than a franchise)? Is this a matter I might take up with my local government? I apologize for my long-winded post I'm just not sure of what approach to take but feel very, very strongly that I must do something. I hope that someone might be able to help.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Your best bet? Accept that people can and do eat horse meat. It is also often fed to pets, in fact a lot of pet foods that don't state that they are 100% beef/lamb/etc probably contain at least some horse meat. 

With such an over supply of horses worldwide I would far rather the excess were processed and used than left to starve in someone's paddock. Why is it ok for beef, lamb, veal, venison, etc to be readily available, but it isn't ok for horse meat? They are all livestock.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

As long as the meat is suitable for consumption and not contaminated by drugs I have no problem with it being in the shops, at least you know it is horse meat unlike the issues we had in the UK.

Personally I have more issues with the racing industry and the high turnover and destruction of horses than I have with horse meat.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

There isn't much to do. Often things happen in this world that you don't agree with. While you can get all up in arms over it sometimes it's worth thinking over and working out while you're unhappy about this. What would you prefer happened, that their meat was wasted, discarded? In what way is a horse any different to a cow or sheep? Why should your dislike of this change what other people do? 

Freedom is a wonderful thing, and it allows you think what you want and do what you want - but when your actions are effecting other people's freedoms you need to check what you're doing and why. I have many strong beliefs, perhaps stronger than yours. I don't eat any meat and I am glad that I am in the position and have the freedom to make choices in accordance with my personal beliefs. At the same time I recognize that everyone else should have the freedom to make their own decision, and I am glad that they can make their own choices in accordance to their beliefs, even if they are different to mine. This is the sort of society I am grateful to live in. 

Perhaps the best thing to do is try to address the problem, minimizing "wastage" whether it be through encouraging responsible breeding, rescuing horses or encouraging industries to adopt new practices.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I say try it. Buy some and have a good cook prepare it for you.

If you don't want your horse to be slaughtered and eaten, don't ever sell him. That is the only way you can guarantee it won't happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

If it makes you feel better, write up a well reasoned and POLITE letter to the shop owner telling him why you think he shouldn't carry horse meat. 

Then let it go. People eat all kinds of meat and you shouldn't force your dietary restrictions on other people. If he's selling it, people are buying it.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't know about anyone else but I for one would love to try horse meat! As long as it was prepared correctly and I was aware of it. I am tracked to many types of animals used for meat such as cows and lambs and with them you just have to understand that it is a fact of life that animals are used for food. If it is alright for them why not horses? Some people want to throw in the argument that horses are pets.. But what about my bottle calves? Or my show cow who is trained to lead and load and has a very strong personality. She is my pet yet cows aren't pets. I have a lamb I hand raised who paws at me when I am not paying her enough attention. Is she not a pet as well? What determines a pet? Because to me all of them have personality and enjoy human interaction. A horse is no different.


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

I don't see any problems with it. I love horses, but just because I love them doesn't mean I'm going to stop them being in stores. Unless you're a 100% vegetarian it's unfair to say no to one of kind meat vs cows. Is it more okay for cows to be slaughtered then horses? Nope.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Meat is meat

As long as the animals (ALL meat animals) are treated humanely and killed humanely, I have no problem at all with what is sold. These won't be your "pet" horse because the drugs/wormers we use won't make them legal for consumption. 

What I don't know.....is if they keep the horses in a feed lot, how long before the drugs might be purged making them legal for human consumption. Anyone know?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Meat is meat
> 
> As long as the animals (ALL meat animals) are treated humanely and killed humanely, I have no problem at all with what is sold. These won't be your "pet" horse because the drugs/wormers we use won't make them legal for consumption.
> 
> What I don't know.....is if they keep the horses in a feed lot, how long before the drugs might be purged making them legal for human consumption. Anyone know?


 
I don't think bute does leave the system:? All my horses are signed out of the food chain as my vet insists on it.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The shop is entitled to make a living. It is available and if there's a demand then why not. You must know how many young race horses wind up at the slaughter plants, thousands and thousands. Ask your father.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> Meat is meat
> 
> As long as the animals (ALL meat animals) are treated humanely and killed humanely, I have no problem at all with what is sold. These won't be your "pet" horse because the drugs/wormers we use won't make them legal for consumption.
> 
> What I don't know.....is if they keep the horses in a feed lot, how long before the drugs might be purged making them legal for human consumption. Anyone know?


As far as I know there have never been any controlled recognized Lab tests done to confirm this in horses because the pharmaceutical industry and the Crop protection Industry (They also have to do withdrawal tests on livestock for pesticides etc where the crop is going to be used as animal feed) don't recognize horses as livestock
Bute is always going to be the biggest issue as its not allowed globally for use in any animal that's going into the food chain


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Well let's think of this another way: Do you think it would be fair if all grocery stores stopped selling ALL meat because one vegetarian wrote a letter to the grocery store because they were disturbed by all the meat being freely sold?

Everyone comes from different backgrounds and have the freedom to make their own decisions on what you eat. 

Meat is meat. Turn your cheek when you walk by. 

I actually would love the opportunity to try horse meat. I have heard it's quite good. And eating horse meat is quite commonplace in other cultures. 

Cows receive shots and pain meds too. My parents raise cattle and we've often butchered old thin cows to eat. I'm sure I've eaten "medications" but I haven't thought twice about it because that cow has been in our possession for well over a decade in our pastures. So I wouldn't personally think twice about buying meat from a grocery store because it wouldn't be any different for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

If you don't believe in eating equine meat, don't!

Grocery stores sell based on demand. If everyone feels similarly to you, the store will stop selling it because nobody is buying it. 

I think Brussels Sprouts are just plain horrid and nasty.... I'm certainly not about to start a campaign to force stores to not sell them. Obviously other people like and buy them. Same with all the 98% sugar cereals the store sells.... no way in heck am I going to let my kids eat them but if other people are ok with it, more power to them!

I raise cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys for meat. I didn't sit back and watch my pigs with pneumonia die, no I was out there 2x a day giving them shots and was thrilled when they got well enough that catching them was practically impossible. They grew into mighty nice, fat pigs and off to the butcher they went. Mighty tasty pigs they were too!


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I say avoid the store if you want. If you feel the need, I also see no reason not to tell the store owner why you will not be shopping there. As other posters have said, stores won't keep bringing in supplies if they are not selling. My sister, one time, refused to go a certain restaurant as it served shark meat (in a soup, as I recall) -- I don't know if other patrons felt the same way or not but I notice they stopped serving shark just before they went out of business.

I believe it to be true that horse meat is routinely put into pet food. My small animal vet has said that when you read the list of ingredients on the label, the ones identified as just 'meat' are horse meat. 

Unfortunately I don't have a solution to keep the thousands of horses that end up in the slaughter plants out of those places. I can only urge people to think responsibly and compassionately when it comes to breeding the backyard mare, keeping the large brood mare band, starting horses too young, or using horses too hard.


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## Houston (Apr 15, 2012)

They have the right to make it available to customers. 

You won't find me eating horse meat, but I recognize that not everyone shares my opinions and they have the right to eat horse meat if they please. As long as the animals are treated humanely and laws are followed, there probably isn't much you can do. 

As someone else mentioned, it would be like a vegan protesting against your normal local grocery store selling meat. It's just not going to have much of an impact, IMO.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I'd be asking where this meat comes from and how they know it's safe. To the best of my knowledge, no one in Ontario raises horses for meat, and it's possible the people buying it don't understand the safety issues involved with eating an animal that wasn't raised for human consumption.

If there are safety issues I would spread awareness based on that. Forget the humane angle as people don't care about that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You know, I've never understood the need for folks to push their beliefs onto others for absolutely no good reason.

You don't believe it's okay to eat horse. That's fine.

In Hinduism, cows are sacred and it's blasphemy to kill or eat one. Is that going to stop you from having a burger?

In Judaism, pork is prohibited because it's viewed as an "unclean meat". Does that stop you from having a pork chop or adding bacon to your burger?

If you don't agree with horse meat, then just don't buy any. I don't like fish, I think it's nasty, but you don't see me complaining that my supermarkets sell it.


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## kiwi79 (Nov 11, 2011)

If a horse was slaughtered humanely and there was minimal suffering and ended up being sold in a butcher shop as opposed to a neglected horse left sitting in a paddock with inadequate care/feed then I know which one I would which one I would feel sorriest for. I find it interesting that this bothers you more than the racing industry which creates so many unwanted horses. I do not participate in anything relating to this industry for that reason but also accept that it is there and not likely to go anywhere anytime soon.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I'd be asking where this meat comes from and how they know it's safe. To the best of my knowledge, no one in Ontario raises horses for meat, and it's possible the people buying it don't understand the safety issues involved with eating an animal that wasn't raised for human consumption.
> 
> If there are safety issues I would spread awareness based on that. Forget the humane angle as people don't care about that.


Horsemeat from Canadian slaughterhouses goes into the EU so I imagine its being supplied direct to Canadian butcher shops from the same source
Canada has the same passport system as the EU which has been designed to track any drugs that are administered for slaughter for human consumption purposes
Horses don't have to be specifically bred for meat to end up on the table
Of course after the scandals in Europe we all know that the system isn't by any means foolproof but in the light of those recent events, the drop in sales of horse meat and general distrust in the slaughter houses they have had to tighten up their acts so the risks of contaminated meat getting through is much less likely than it used to.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Everyone wants to be hard on the OP for stating her disgust at finding horse meat in the local store. I just wonder how everybody would feel if it were dog meat or cat meat. Just so you cook it well, it should be perfectly nutritious. Yum, yum.


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

Celeste said:


> Everyone wants to be hard on the OP for stating her disgust at finding horse meat in the local store. I just wonder how everybody would feel if it were dog meat or cat meat. Just so you cook it well, it should be perfectly nutritious. Yum, yum.


But people do eat that. And it wouldn't surprise me in certain asian stores, if they did sell that. Idk if it's legal. But it wouldn't surprise me. And please don't take that as racist either, because it's true. A lot will eat anything, for instance, in vietnam my friends mom her family was poor. They ate cats and dogs, anything. Hell she asked why we don't eat the Pidgeons here. 

Just a fact of life.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Horsemeat from Canadian slaughterhouses goes into the EU so I imagine its being supplied direct to Canadian butcher shops from the same source
> Canada has the same passport system as the EU which has been designed to track any drugs that are administered for slaughter for human consumption purposes
> Horses don't have to be specifically bred for meat to end up on the table
> Of course after the scandals in Europe we all know that the system isn't by any means foolproof but in the light of those recent events, the drop in sales of horse meat and general distrust in the slaughter houses they have had to tighten up their acts so the risks of contaminated meat getting through is much less likely than it used to.


I didn't think our standards were as tough as the EU's, they usually aren't. I still wouldn't eat our the horse meat though, because I do care about humane slaughter.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

If you are really that concerned, I would write a letter to the owner of the store. Or, simply stop shopping there.

Really, I agree with what has been said thus far. Just because it isn't something you condone or would eat yourself, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be an option for others. I wouldn't eat it, but I wouldn't look down on those that do.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

As far as cat or dog meat...if there was a market for it, then I'd be happier with that meat actually going somewhere other than into an incinerator.

I'm all for people eating whatever the heck they want as far as animals are concerned. It may gross me out, but as far as I'm concerned, it's their choice. After all, it's not like they're forcing _me _to eat it. _Then _I might raise a ruckus LOL.


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## thetempest89 (Aug 18, 2013)

smrobs said:


> As far as cat or dog meat...if there was a market for it, then I'd be happier with that meat actually going somewhere other than into an incinerator.
> 
> I'm all for people eating whatever the heck they want as far as animals are concerned. It may gross me out, but as far as I'm concerned, it's their choice. After all, it's not like they're forcing _me _to eat it. _Then _I might raise a ruckus LOL.



My friends are mostly asian. One of them got mad because I wouldn't try chicken feet. 

But agreed. As long as nobody forces me to eat it, then it's fine.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

thetempest89 said:


> I don't see any problems with it. I love horses, but just because I love them doesn't mean I'm going to stop them being in stores. Unless you're a 100% vegetarian it's unfair to say no to one of kind meat vs cows. Is it more okay for cows to be slaughtered then horses? Nope.


This is a really good point. I use to fairly mindless eat meat, not really caring where it came from. Then I moved to my current home. The cattle processing plant is the next road over. Every day I see hundreds of cows taking a one way trip. It really got to me, and I have cut back the amount of beef that I eat. Do you think they are any less scared than the horses because they were raised specifically for slaughter? Cows are fairly intelligent. They know what is going on, but somewhere along the way horses became a "higher life form" than a cow. 

The same goes for pigs. Heck, pigs can be trained like dogs! There are studies about how smart they are, yet we still eat them.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Celeste said:


> Everyone wants to be hard on the OP for stating her disgust at finding horse meat in the local store. I just wonder how everybody would feel if it were dog meat or cat meat. Just so you cook it well, it should be perfectly nutritious. Yum, yum.


I was just coming on here to state this. Thank you Celeste! 

To me, my horses are every bit as much a part of the family as a dog or a cat. As a matter of fact, we don't even have a dog or a cat at the moment. Horses are companion animals to me. After all, it's not like I am using them to work a job or make money. They are a money pit. But I love them dearly and they are worth it to me. If I didn't have a special companion-animal relationship with my horses, I might as well ride a bicycle! Lord knows it would be a lot cheaper and less heart-ache.

So I think to eat horses is akin to eating cats and dogs. And there are people who would do that. And there are people who live in places where they HAVE to do that to survive. But in the United States (and I assume Canada) we tend not to eat our companion animals. We are a rich country. We don't have to eat dogs, cats, horses or even pigeons.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

For whomever might be interested, I thought I would put a link to just part of a scientific study on drugs clearing from horses. Right now, drug companies and Universities are conducting scientific studies on more than 100 drugs labeled for horses but not labeled for withdrawal times for slaughter. 

This lack of test studies is the ONLY reason they have been labeled "not for use in animals used for human consumption". Bute is one of the first drugs they have been testing. They are finding that it clears faster from horses than any other animal (except donkeys). Below is a link to the ongoing scientific study.

Phenylbutazone in horses and man: Properties relevant to safety of humans consuming horse meat containing phenylbutazone and its metabolites - Lees - 2013 - Equine Veterinary Education - Wiley Online Library

I think it is quite enlightening in regards to all of the lies and non-scientific propaganda put forth by the anti-slaughter zealots. 

As far as horse-meat being available in Canada: I have run into several people over the last several years that have said it was being served in very high class restaurants in Montreal. _bon appétit_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Clava said:


> As long as the meat is suitable for consumption and not contaminated by drugs


A very real and worrisome issue. Unless the horse is specifically raised for meat I'm sure it's had LOTS of medication. Pretty much everything you give your horse says "not for animals for consumption" even if it's something that has a withdrawal date (which a lot don't) you don't know that it has reached that point.

If you have an issue write a letter and send a petition to the owner. I do think it's something you may just need to accept though. Shrug. If it's more and more available it's just a matter of time before it's mainstream.

Cherie beat me to it. Interesting link, I'll be sure to check it out!


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Yogiwick said:


> Unless the horse is specifically raised for meat I'm sure it's had LOTS of medication.


And same goes for many of the animals purpose-bred for consumption. Pretty much all dairy cows are given antibiotics at different periods in their lives to treat mastitis or other disease, and then of course, the heifer calves are dehorned, so some of those may or may not get pain meds depending on the producer. Then there are the normal dewormers and vaccines. Remember, every dairy cow ends her life as a beef cow. 

Horses aren't really all that different. I am with smrobs- best for the animals be put to use. I have often advocated that the 4 million plus unowned cats and dogs this country kills annually out to be slaughtered and shipped to a country that is less squeamish than the US. Cow and pigs are no different than cats and dogs. And horses.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I just think it's more carefully regulated and probably given in the first place if the animal is intended for consumption. Shrug.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Ok, let's get rid of the emotion of eating a pet (for those with hang ups about it). :lol:

We've been eating horses since before man painted on cave walls. If you spend enough time Western Europe you've likely eaten equine and not realized it (it had a tendency to turn up in sausages along with other meats) and it's not that uncommon in good restaurants in France and Italy (just look for "equine", but expect to pay more for it).

But all that aside, let's look at practicality.
1. Equine is one of the healthiest sources of domestic red meat. It's leaner than most and equal to the leanest cuts of any.
2. It's got amazingly high rates of iron and B-12 (and we must have B-12...sorry vegans, but's why you need supplements while we omnivores don't)
3. If you don't care for oily fish (salmon, etc...) the horse is the go to choice for omega 3. It's loaded with it (way over 300 mg/100 grams).
4. It's one of the few domestic animals who's meat is actually better when it's older. e.g. The meat from a 20 year old horse generally has a better flavor, etc... than that of a 5 year old.

With the exception of religious taboos (e.g. Judaism and Islam both have dietary restrictions against eating equine) it's only been in the last 100 years that the English speaking world went on a crusade against eating horse (it was still being eaten during WW I).

In general pigs are as smart as dogs (smarter than all the other domestic animals) and yet no one is bothered about eating an animal that is more intelligent than their cat or horse (and possibly their dog too, depending on the breed).

Now for the ultimate practicality. The TB racing industry alone (not counting any other source of "horse flesh") dumps about 5,000 horses a year on the market (OTTB's). That comes out to about 50,000 a decade. Add to that the number of horses that come from other sources and the number becomes staggering. The reality is that probably less than 20% (on a great year) of all these animals find a "home". Rescues can't handle the numbers and there will NEVER be enough people who want to AND can afford to take on the care of that many horses.
So, we kill off the rest (or the die from neglect or for what ever reason). Now we have to bury them to feed the worms, leave them out to feed the buzzards or expend an excessive amount of energy to cremate them.
Realistically it's a greater crime to let that much nutrition be deliberately wasted when it could go to much better use.
Personally it bothers me more to think that my horses we be recycled into a lower life form than it would to think that they'd provide good nutrition to another human (or even a dog). While I would be too keen on dressing mine out for meat like I would a dear or hog, a dead animal is no longer the "being" it was. At that point it's just a piece of meat and if you put a nice equine steak on my plate or cooked a nice equine roast I'd gladly eat it (and be healthier for it).

So rather than just have all this "excess" (and that's what they are....excess) horses, donkeys, mules, just be disposed of and go to waste I say put them to good use. Our ancestors certainly would have (and did).


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Sharpie said:


> I have often advocated that the 4 million plus unowned cats and dogs this country kills annually out to be slaughtered and shipped to a country that is less squeamish than the US. Cow and pigs are no different than cats and dogs. And horses.


Why ship them out? 
Some of the old timers can attest that cat taste amazing like rabbit :lol: (hence the term "roof rabbit" and why some butchers in the UK during the big war required hunters who brought in rabbits to have the heads still attached....dressed out they are quite similar). And I love a well prepared rabbit (just as soon as a stray cat shows up in the back yard :lol.
Dog is suppose to taste like pork.

While shipping them out is a good use for the excess, I suggest we start a campaign to educate and eliminate the general attitude that certain animals should never be eaten so they can be eaten here (and get the price of meat down by increasing the supply of meats available). The concept of certain types of animals that are kept as "pets" are "untouchable" is ridiculous. I've know people with pet chickens, pigs, cows, goats, sheep, rabbits, etc, etc, etc...... (I myself have had a pet cow) so all domestic and many non domestic animals would be taboo.
I say make them all available. Turn them into sausages if need be (make a hotdog a "hot dog" :lol


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## sunset878 (Nov 26, 2012)

I personally wouldn't eat horsemeat, but then I don't like venison, duck, goose, or seafood either. I think as long as it is slaughtered under the same conditions as cattle etc there isn't any problems. Only people who want to eat it will buy it.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Celeste said:


> Everyone wants to be hard on the OP for stating her disgust at finding horse meat in the local store. I just wonder how everybody would feel if it were dog meat or cat meat. Just so you cook it well, it should be perfectly nutritious. Yum, yum.


I travel all over the world and have, undoubtedly, eaten things I haven't been able to identify. No doubt horse, monkey and who knows what has been on my plate. At the market I visited I saw rat on a stick, roasted dog and roasted bats. As I said....meat is meat.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

My daughter is a vegan, my son will eat whatever meat he can get his hands on (and has tried Kangaroo, snake, turtle, racoon, and various other "exotic" meats), and me and my wife are "traditional" meat eaters. I've never tried horse, and not sure I'd necessarily rush to either as that "pet/food" barrier exists in my mind that I'll admit (as others have clearly touched on here) doesn't necessarily make much sense when the road comes to an end, but it exists for me nonetheless.

It has been an interesting thread to read, however, especially given the nature of the forum. Quite frankly, I'm surprised. Not offended or anything, just surprised - one might expect to come to a horse forum and see a 100% vehement fight _against_ horse meat, so it's been an enlightening situation here.


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

I really wouldn't mind horse meat. I would mind cat or dog, but not because they are pets- I refuse to eat carnivores. That means no alligator, cat, dog, coyote. I would also have an issue with just grinding them into sausage and hotdog unless it is labeled, since it is almost a religious thing to me. 

But rabbit, goat, horse...it's all free game to me! One of my friends even said her parents used to fill their freezer that way- go to an auction,and they could cut and wrap it themselves for a final cost of maybe $2 a pound.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Quite frankly, I'm surprised. Not offended or anything, just surprised - one might expect to come to a horse forum and see a 100% vehement fight _against_ horse meat, so it's been an enlightening situation here.


Let me give you some insight into why most serious horse people favor domestic processing of unwanted horses.

There is always going to be a large number of horses that no one wants. When there is a downturn n the economy, this number gets larger. There are many reasons there are 'unwanted horses'. Some are breeding horses that are no longer useful for breeding. There are ill-tempered horses that do not train well or are mean. There are badly spoiled horses that are dangerous. There are many horses that may appear sound but go lame with any riding. (I have 2 of those now.) Some horses are so ugly and unattractive that no one will buy them. Some just are in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

For whatever reason, most have been offered for sale (sometimes multiple times) because their current owner no longer want them or can afford them. No one should have to justify not wanting to keep a horse for any reason. No one should tell anyone else they cannot sell a car, a house or a horse they own. I don't care if it is not gentle enough for the kids or it is too slow on a barrel pattern or it goes lame if ridden hard, it is the owner's right to NOT keep it forever.

Now, most horses offered for sale are purchased by someone else that is going to ride it, use it for a different purpose, train it to make money on (called project horses) or 1000 other reasons. But, when a horse is offered for sale and no one wants it or it has no useful purpose at all, it has to go somewhere.

The ideal system of capitalism is ruled by supply and demand. When the demand is high, so is the price; a LOT of people buy project horses because well-trained horses are very expensive. When money is tight and people lose jobs, many people have to get rid of horses for simple economic reasons. So, untrained horses and other 'useable horses' become unwanted. This is what we have seen the last few years. Many pretty nice horses have become unwanted. The owners cannot be faulted because circumstances change -- can change many times during the 20--30 year lifespan of a horse. So, if a horse is offered for sale and no one wants to buy it, it has to go somewhere. Unlike a 4-wheeler or a car that can be parked until it can be sold, horses continue to need $100.00 to $200.00 of feed every month.

There are a lot of good people that get put into bad circumstances and cannot keep feeding and caring for their horse(s). It is their legal and moral right to sell any horse they own. Their family must come first. If no one wants to buy the horse for riding purposes, then the slaughter market has to be there to pick up the slack. Without it, there will still be just as many unwanted horses. The problem is that most of them will receive little or no care, get little or no feed and will be terribly neglected or will have to travel thousands of miles to Mexico or Canada. 

You answer this for me and you will answer your own question. Is it better for a horse to be hauled a short distance and quickly killed and processed into useful meat or is it better for the horse to stand in some back pasture and die of starvation or nearly starve waiting for spring (and grass) or waiting until the owner is able to get a job and be able to buy feed again?

So, while every horse lover, including myself, would love to see every useful horse in a good home, the reality is that domestic processing is better than any other alternative for the hundreds of thousands of horses that are unwanted by anyone that actually wants them.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> I travel all over the world and have, undoubtedly, eaten things I haven't been able to identify. No doubt horse, monkey and who knows what has been on my plate. At the market I visited I saw rat on a stick, roasted dog and roasted bats. As I said....meat is meat.


I will eat labeled, USDA stamped beef, pork, or chicken. I will not eat "mystery meat". Not only do I worry about the "yuck" factor, but also about disease such as trichinosis from dogs and rats, not to mention bubonic plague from cats and rats. I will rapidly go on a vegetarian diet if I can't identify my food source. 

As far as the "yuck" factor, I like my horse a lot more than I like my dog. I have much more of an attachment, and therefore anthropomorphic about her. If I were Hindu, she would be my sacred cow.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Let me give you some insight into why most serious horse people favor domestic processing of unwanted horses..


I don't debate (and actually agree with) many of your points, with the exception of the word "most" in the above phrase. That hasn't been my experience around here. 

And as for being surprised at the opinions on this thread, it's just that - my viewpoint on the direction this thread went versus how many might have expected. I'm guessing the OP is aghast right now. 

Take note that the OP is from my locale as well, hence why the views may be different in this neck of the woods in general - Southern Ontario is like Kentucky North from a horse perspective, and I think if you went to the heart of Kentucky horse country you'd find similar sentiment on the anti horsemeat campaign.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I didn't think our standards were as tough as the EU's, they usually aren't. I still wouldn't eat our the horse meat though, because I do care about humane slaughter.


I assume that means you are a vegetarian

I can appreciate that many people don't want to eat horse meat because they see them in the same way that they see their dogs, cats etc but not everyone has the view - to many people a horse is just another large animal and no different to a cow


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Celeste said:


> I will eat labeled, USDA stamped beef, pork, or chicken. I will not eat "mystery meat". Not only do I worry about the "yuck" factor, but also about disease such as trichinosis from dogs and rats, not to mention bubonic plague from cats and rats. I will rapidly go on a vegetarian diet if I can't identify my food source.


I'm sorry, but I can't resist :rofl:

:lol: You might want to seriously consider not leaving the U.S.A or at least staying in North America (and avoid ordering "meat" off of a menu and inspect the "side of beef" before they start to cut it up for you to buy at the store since you're unlikely to (rarely) see the USDA stamp on anything after it's been cut up for sale).
I suppose you might be able to manage the vegetarian diet in some countries you could visit, but that's not always easy (in some places you won't enjoy your "new diet" much when eating out. Being rather limited in what's available for you to eat unless you rent a house so you can buy and prepare all your food) :lol:.
In most of the world (including the US) when you go to a place to eat you don't get to inspect the meat (see comment above for checking the USDA stamp and you'd be hard pressed to tell what cut piece of meat came from anyway). You order a dish off the menu (or in some places you point to what you want like the pot of stew or the whatever else might have been prepared that day for customers to select from). In any eating establishment anywhere in the world you are going on "faith" that you're getting what you ordered (basically "mystery meat" in most cases since you can't usually positively know what it came from). Unless of course it's one of the places (and you order something small) where they bring the entire fish, rabbit, etc..... (head and all). Then you have excellent odds of knowing almost exactly what you got (providing of course that you're familiar with what it would look like in it's skinless and cooked state..... e.g. squirrels have an uncanny resemblance to rats once the skin and tales are removed, but then their almost 1st cousins) :rofl:.

Oh, and trichinosis is a greater concern with pork than with canine .....unless you only eat US factory raised pork in which case they've almost eliminated it, but with grazing, free range "healthier" pork you still run a risk of it unless you cook it properly. But then cooking something properly is how we make poultry and eggs safe to eat too. The need to prepare/cook food properly to avoid a health risk is not just restricted to one or two species of animal.
And be careful with the vegetarian diets. Make sure you take your supplements (e.g. remember we all must have B-12....not to mention the human body has difficult time processing omega 3 from vegetable sources and can't get as much as we really need except from animal sources which we can process very efficiently) and look out for contamination (people die for that too).


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

PrivatePilot said:


> Take note that the OP is from my locale as well, hence why the views may be different in this neck of the woods in general - Southern Ontario is like Kentucky North from a horse perspective, and I think if you went to the heart of Kentucky horse country you'd find similar sentiment on the anti horsemeat campaign.


 
The Uk is almost a nation of horse lovers, but loving horses is nothing to do with what happens to their bodies once they are dead. It is how they are treated up to the moment they die which is important.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Celeste said:


> I will eat labeled, USDA stamped beef, pork, or chicken. I will not eat "mystery meat". Not only do I worry about the "yuck" factor, but also about disease such as trichinosis from dogs and rats, not to mention bubonic plague from cats and rats. I will rapidly go on a vegetarian diet if I can't identify my food source.
> 
> As far as the "yuck" factor, I like my horse a lot more than I like my dog. I have much more of an attachment, and therefore anthropomorphic about her. If I were Hindu, she would be my sacred cow.


I guess you will be stuck with traveling only in the USA. Heck, you don't really know what is in that stew at any restaurant. It could be anything and not necessarily USDA stamped.

LOL!!
Its lbs, I just read your post. Great minds think alike.....and post alike, it seems!!

As fr trichinosis, better never eat pork products, Or simply cook well whatever you prepare. 

BTW, Bubonic plague doesn't come from eating any meat. It comes from being bitten by a parasitic vector like a flea.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

PrivatePilot said:


> I don't debate (and actually agree with) many of your points, with the exception of the word "most" in the above phrase. That hasn't been my experience around here.
> 
> And as for being surprised at the opinions on this thread, it's just that - my viewpoint on the direction this thread went versus how many might have expected. I'm guessing the OP is aghast right now.
> 
> Take note that the OP is from my locale as well, hence why the views may be different in this neck of the woods in general - Southern Ontario is like Kentucky North from a horse perspective, and I think if you went to the heart of Kentucky horse country you'd find similar sentiment on the anti horsemeat campaign.


Relatively speaking Kentucky isn't really "horse" country for the US (which has the largest horse population in the world). TX and CA have more, but that's to be expected given their size. Even FL has significantly more horses than KY. I'm sure KY remains in the top 10, but can easily be trading places with OH and some other states that also have between 250,000 - 350,000 thousand. Keep in mind that the US has well over 9 million horse (the most in the world by well ove a million).

And has already brought out earlier, if someone really cares about the well being of horses they would want at least one slaughterhouse per state (more in the larger states). The horses are going to die anyway. No need to make them suffer more in the process of reaching that point. Human doesn't mean keeping them alive. It means preventing the suffering.

I can't say about everyone on who posts on this site, but there are certainly enough who have been dealing with horses long enough to understand that they are livestock. Just because you make a piece of livestock a pet doesn't alter that fact. My pet cow (I fed from a nipple bucket) lived a long (for a cow), productive life and when her time came I had to say good-bye and she became ground beef (well, a lot of her did). One of my cousins had a pet porker (Bosco) who was the best "watch dog" they'd ever had and he provided some really nice hams (and a LOT of good sausage).

Pets come and pets go. I think turning them into worms or buzzards is the most demeaning thing we allow to happen to them. It's nature's way, but so is turning them any other creature. Seeing what the process is like for them to become worms or buzzards made it a lot easier for me to say it's better to have them processed and eaten by something else.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

You actually can get plague just from handling infected rats. Or humans. It is not always transmitted by a bite wound or by a rat flea.

According to the CDC, "Humans usually get plague after being bitten by a rodent flea that is carrying the plague bacterium or by *handling an animal* infected with plague." 

Yes humans can eat horses, rats, dogs, cats, lizards, snakes, bugs, and a lot of other things. I will have to be a lot hungrier than I am to try any of the above.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I have a "minimum waste" view, not just for animals but for me too as I am an organ donor and will hopefully be "parted out" after my death. 

All creatures deserve as natural, healthy and abundant life as is possible, and a quick death with as little pain as possible. They also deserve to make their contribution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It wasn't uncommon for spot checks on Chinese takeouts in the UK to reveal they were selling meat from cats and rats - not nice but I don't think anyone was actually ill from eating them


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I'd be quite disgusted if I saw something like that at a grocers' in my country. Then again, horses are historically and culturally honored around here, so it's not considered appropriate to eat a horse, who is traditionally viewed as a friend, a partner and a part of the family. Then again, I'm not okay with animals being slaughtered for consumption as such, but I'm not a battling vegetarian - I just make my own choices. Also, there are influences from other cultures, because of which one can find horse meat sausages, canned horse meat and such in the shop shelves. Most are appalled to see that, though.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Yes humans can eat horses, rats, dogs, cats, *lizards, snakes*, bugs, and a lot of other things. I will have to be a lot hungrier than I am to try any of the above.


Oh, you are missing out. :lol: Snake (and the few other types of reptiles I've partaken of) is better than chicken. Taste better with a nicer texture. Prettier meat too. Nice and clean looking right out of the skin (easier to clean too). All the reptiles I've had taste better than chicken (although I've never cared for frog legs as much). After my first snake while survival camping as a teen they became a "game" animal for me. While they do taste great roasted over a fire I enjoy being able to be versatile with them and use them with other dishes in the kitchen. And give me a nice meaty snapping turtle for making soup any day.

And by-the-by....snakes and the like are better for you health wise than the domestic "food" animals we raise (cattle, pork, chicken), although goat is rather healthy nutritional domestic animal (possibly the second after equine).

Now I'm hungry and not a snake around :-(.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Does anybody know where the "don't like" button is?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree that snake is very good. I've had rattlesnake in this country and Asian snake soup in Asia. I have also eaten iguana, which doesn't take anything from the fact that I used to rehab sick iguanas and find them good homes afterwards. I often eat raccoon and squirrel and will be getting my first opossum stew this week. 

I trap varmints because they attack my chicken coops. I believe in trying to make use of anything I have to kill. The lady who dispatches them for me also cooks them up. She used to discard the possum, but I told her that I had heard it was good. She cooked the last one and agreed it was very good. She is bringing me a jar of the stew. I have also eaten groundhog and muskrat (which was incredibly good. Better than beef).
Meat is meat, as I keep saying.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Ok, let's get rid of the emotion of eating a pet (for those with hang ups about it). :lol:


My objection to eating horse is not based on emotion. It's based on the physiological differences between horses and cattle. Compared to cattle, horses are more reactive, they kick each other in close quarters, they are afraid of going into trailers at the best of times, and they have longer, more mobile necks that make it easier for them to avoid the stun gun. What is humane treatment for cattle is not necessarily humane treatment for horses. 

People like to say that "meat is meat" but we don't train goats to hunt or get cats to pull carts. We treat animals differently because they ARE different, and that should include how they are slaughtered.

If I were in Iceland I would eat horse because they have better methods of slaughter there. North American methods just aren't good enough. They aren't good enough for pigs either which is why I don't eat them.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Have you personally observed horse slaughter?

If not, then whose scientific 'live and in person' observations have you scrutinized.

Or are you going by the very biased propaganda put forth by the radical Animal Rights activists like the HSUS, etc?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> My objection to eating horse is not based on emotion. It's based on the physiological differences between horses and cattle. Compared to cattle, horses are more reactive, they kick each other in close quarters, they are afraid of going into trailers at the best of times, and they have longer, more mobile necks that make it easier for them to avoid the stun gun. What is humane treatment for cattle is not necessarily humane treatment for horses.
> 
> People like to say that "meat is meat" but we don't train goats to hunt or get cats to pull carts. We treat animals differently because they ARE different, and that should include how they are slaughtered.
> 
> If I were in Iceland I would eat horse because they have better methods of slaughter there. North American methods just aren't good enough. They aren't good enough for pigs either which is why I don't eat them.


You apparently haven't dealt with cattle a great deal.
About the only thing that horses do that cows don't is bite (but horses have upper and lower teeth while cows only have lower teeth). But then cows will head butt and heaven help them if some have horns, because goring will also be a norm (something you never have to worry about with horses.....unless you found a unicorn :lol:, but although mythical, they were more correctly more like a large goat than a true horse). I'm not sure where you got the image what cattle are like vs horses, but it's a bit flawed.
(I'm qualifying the following is with non feed lot livestock, since we kept all our cattle on grazing they didn't have a feed lot behavior)
I've never seen cattle load as easily as a horse. The reason we can usually "force" cattle easier than horses is because in most cases horses tend to be larger and more powerful that cattle (although you get a 2,000 lb bull with a bad attitude and I'd rather deal with an unruly 1,000 lb horse). You can still load a horse on a lead through 4' door. With an 8' opening we still had to force the cattle in by eliminating the ability to exit from behind so forward was their only option.
Of course you cut down on the risk of injury any animal is subjected to by having processing facilities close enough to cut down on travel time, so every state should have at least one or more depending on size. That would be the more humane thing.

If using a bullet, as long as the line of the trajectory passes through a point about half way between the eyes and the ears the result is the same. The concussion will knock them out and in most cases cause death. If the concussion does not kill them right then they'll die from the injury before they ever regain consciousness. I've never seen someone have a problem hitting the right spot. (note: do not shoot them between the eyes. It will just blow out the sinuses and might not knock them out).
Using a piston, while I've never actually seen that done on a horse, would be much the same except that it has a larger impact surface area. Meaning you have a greater variation of exactly where the impact is needed since as long as part of it is on the correct trajectory (from any area along the front or sides it will work) the result will be the same....knocked out by and usually killed by the concussion, but if not already killed will die before regaining consciousness. Of course with a piston you can also come from the top and that's a sure thing.
Yes, we raised stock and we did this enough to know with cows, hogs, goats, etc.... Of course I imaging it was different for the chickens since they usually got their neck wrung (hate cleaning poultry).

What we do or don't use an animal for has not bearing on it's value as a food item. In point of fact the animals that serve a purpose beyond their potential for food are the better choices. They're productiveness makes them a better choice. Of course in the case of cats you're lucky if 1 in 10 is actually useful for anything beyond killing birds and lizards (they're seldom much good at catching mice but are the most destructive of all animals in terms of damaging non pest wild life). In 20 years my grandparents had two that were any good. One eventually died of old age and the other (a "tom") after about 7 years sampled a chicken and decided that he liked it. A couple days later he got caught in the act and.....then my ferrets were all we used to keep out the pests. (unfortunately I was still in my teens and didn't yet know that cat tasted like rabbit....oh well) 

But then you've established that you'll eat horse so long as it comes from Iceland, so it's still "meat is meat" . You just want it to come from someplace else.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I lived in Puerto Rico for a a while and discovered quickly that Puerto Ricans have little liking or use for dogs and cats. Now horses, on the other hand, were adored and you would see them tied out on roadsides all over the island, even grazing calmly in the middle of a highway cloverleaf. Folks in city apartments had horses, they just picketed them in different spots around the city, and no one seemed to be bothered about it. They were mainly the lithe little Paso Finos, and most Puerto Ricans loved to talk about those horses! 

There are wild dogs everywhere and they are a big problem for parents of small children because they would attack a child with food in their hands. The cats were quite nasty, crapping on your porch, in a "statement" of possession. Both brought ticks, fleas, and disease. We trapped some and took them to a shelter, but there were so many, it was overwhelming.

Roadside food vendors are everywhere in PR, and actually the best place to get food. If you really want hot, creamy doughnuts first thing in the morning, just roll down your window at the intersection. If you want fresh lettuce, and not the wilted wad they sell in the store, you could find it at Calle Wilson & 37. 

The best eats were pincho stands. They sold skewers of meat barbecue right there, after a long soak in a green or red sauce. Buy a pincho and a coco frio and you had a heavenly meal. But we all knew there was no guarantees about what kind of meat was in that pincho. And curiously, the wild dogs did not pester those pincho stands. In fact, they were nowhere in sight of pincho stands.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> My objection to eating horse is not based on emotion. It's based on the physiological differences between horses and cattle. Compared to cattle, horses are more reactive, they kick each other in close quarters, they are afraid of going into trailers at the best of times, and they have longer, more mobile necks that make it easier for them to avoid the stun gun. What is humane treatment for cattle is not necessarily humane treatment for horses.


Have you ever gotten within a mile of a cow!!??

I have a bull at my place that ended up needing an abscess drained after granny cow decided he was eating more than his fair share of the protein cakes, booted him one and then stuck a horn into him. 

Last week a coyote decided he wanted a nice chicken dinner. My COW stomped on the coyote after he grabbed a chicken. I'd say that's pretty darn reactive and my then slimy silkie escaped to tell the tale. 

Last of all..... if you think cows WANT to go into trailers. :lol: :lol: :lol: I have a welded metal pen, chute and swinging gates. All of which are very necessary to shove cows on into a trailer. There is no bribing a cow into a trailer with food, there is no pointing and watching a cow load up. No, you chase them into the trailer and they go in because they think the trailer is less scary than the human with the cattle prod! 

A horse does have a longer neck, I will give you that. However, when you consider that you shove the cow into such tight quarters it has no choice about evading the death shot... :wink:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The most far reaching example of the "meat is meat" was the plane crash in the Andes.

If you are too young to remember it, a plane full of South American rugby players, and their families, crashed on a mountaintop in the Andes. The 45 of them (29 survived the crash) were there for more than 72 days. 16 survived the subzero temps, avalanches and death due to injuries sustained in the crash. There was nothing but snow and ice on that mountain top. Needless to say, the dead were the only source of food left to them.

As horrible as it was, they survived. When they were rescued, they were all of the opinion that they would be vilified and even excommunicated by the Catholic Church, of which they were all members.

The pope did something that will forever have my respect. He assured each survivor that what they did was absolutely acceptable, since they only fed on the dead, not killing anyone for this. In fact, he carried it even farther. He said that God provided that meat for them and, if they had not partaken of it, they would have spurned him and essentially commit suicide (which IS a huge sin). 

I, for one, was pretty amazed at the far thinking of this pontiff. Even he recognized that "meat is meat".


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

And "we" taste like pork :lol: (hence the old nautical term "long pork" which meant they were down to eating humans)

Granted it's been a "few" years, but I seem to recall that all the of the final survivors were men (although there were women who survived the crash). Aside of some events that killed others, there apparently were some who had issues with eating what was available (and died).

Actually starvation is an interesting subject since it's mostly about the brain and the brain can basically "starve" even when you have enough to eat, but not enough fat. The common term for that is rabbit starvation (plenty of meat, but it's too lean). It's why in cases like the Donner Expedition eating the dead (or the starved and near dead) didn't help. It was all lean with no fat. The human body (especially the brain) needs some fat. Even the lean cuts of most animals have a degree of fat (rabbits tend to not have much and are exceedingly lean in the wild)

The guys in the Andes had bodies that had been well fed at the time of death and quickly frozen so well preserved. Not the remains of starving people who had already burned off any fat reserves they had.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Cherie said:


> Have you personally observed horse slaughter?


Yes. And I have seen it done in ways that I would call humane. But those are not the ways our slaughter houses use, and I don't believe they ever will. 



its lbs not miles said:


> You apparently haven't dealt with cattle a great deal.


All I'm saying is that horses are different animals with different needs. In Iceland they lead horses *by hand, one by one, into a closed room* and shoot them. That is a huge difference.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> All I'm saying is that horses are different animals with different needs. In Iceland they lead horses *by hand, one by one, into a closed room* and shoot them. That is a huge difference.


Yes, horses are different, but they are not any more hyper-reactive or prone to injure themselves or others than cattle are.

It's all very well and good if they can lead the horse calmly into a closed room to dispatch it quietly but I ask you this:

Who in _this _country is going to take the time to break all those slaughter bound horses to lead, and lead calmly? 

There are a good portion of horses who are only slaughter-bound because they are older and have never been touched (and, therefore, never taught to lead) or they are spoiled and dangerous (therefore, leading them into a room without some form of serious restraint would be dangerous to the humans involved).

What's your solution there?


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Celeste said:


> Everyone wants to be hard on the OP for stating her disgust at finding horse meat in the local store. I just wonder how everybody would feel if it were dog meat or cat meat. Just so you cook it well, it should be perfectly nutritious. Yum, yum.


My favorite response so far. ^^^^^^^ 

If I saw horse, dog, or cat meat in a store I think I would have to buy some and try it.

On an other note, Most stores sell magazines I don't approve of,. Do you know what I do about them, nothing, I just don't buy them.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I had Cheval in a restaurant years ago. I didn't know it at the time so not intentionally ordered. The taste was different and repeated on me the entire evening making it a most unpleasant experience. I've also had buffalo which, dietary wise, is an excellent lean meat, so lean in fact one has to had about 1/3 ground pork to make burgers and even then they might burn. I love moose meat from a cow or calf, and venison if a doe. Hunting season coincides with the rut and the males stink to high heaven which taints the meat. I'm not much of a meat eater so hopefully I won't feel the need to try rover or kitty.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Hello, 
I have constantly struggled with the idea of horse slaughter. I'm not a vegetarian by any means but horses are definitely friends, not food. If this is something you feel strongly about, which I'm sure it does, I would write a respectful letter stating your experience with horses and your opinion, and if that doesn't work, consider formulating an online petition and sharing it with other horse lovers. If you post something on here or Youtube or another horse-site, I can practically assure you that you will get hundreds of people supporting you. 

People can argue all they want about horses being livestock just as much as a chicken or a cow, but I would have to disagree. There's a reason chickens aren't in the Olympics.

I'm sorry that you had to see this, but way to go for standing up for what you believe in!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Yes. And I have seen it done in ways that I would call humane. But those are not the ways our slaughter houses use, and I don't believe they ever will.
> 
> 
> 
> All I'm saying is that horses are different animals with different needs. In Iceland they lead horses *by hand, one by one, into a closed room* and shoot them. That is a huge difference.


Based on your description the only difference is we don't lead them in by hand and tell them everything is going to be ok, so just relax while I scrabble your brain.

I don't know what you saw outside of Iceland, but the "killing horses is inhumane" crowd will say that Island's method is inhumane too, because they say the shot to the head doesn't actually kill them and they are still aware (I'm still trying to figure that one out....fractured skull, massive brain trauma, hung to drain the blood out and yet they claim the horse is alive and aware during the skinning process).
1. Island doesn't process around 200 horses a day so low numbers means they can take the horse to lunch before killing it.
2. Islandic ponies are handled and easily lead around so they can do that.
3. With the exception of being hand led, the killing technique is the same. They are still killed one-by-one by a shot to the brain (and just so you know...unless a horse is accustom to being in a closed room it's very likely going to panic and become difficult to handle...horses don't naturally like closed spaces so the Islandic way will panic a horse not already trained for it). The method for killing is a high powered bullet or a penetrating bolt gun. The effect on the horse is the same. (or is it that we can kill more than they do that's the problem?) I don't think a horse killed in Island or a horse killed in the US are going to compare notes to see which one was deader or which bullet or bolt did the most damage. The damage and result is the same, and dead is dead.

The real inhumane issue for the US is the transportation and holding. That's an issue because states and the US gov't act on the outcry from people who don't know enough to realize that the laws they are screaming to enact actually promote massive numbers of horses being subjected to everything from bad to horrible conditions/situations for long periods of time (often years), because they cannot be disposed of. If people really cared about the well being of these animals they would have a processing facility or more in every state to cut down on the practice of collecting horses from all over. Hauling and holding them until they could be processed at one of the very few facilities that were operating (I don't think we had a half dozen when they tried to get congress to pass a bill then never made it through the Senate). Although they did (back in the 70's????) pass the law that made it illegal to put horse meat in pet food. Zoo's use to grab up the parts that weren't shipped out for human consumption for feeding their carnivores.

If people over here looked at it like beef or pork and started eating it then the demand for it would make an increase in processing facilities more likely which in turn would cut down on the amount of transportation and holding. Thus reducing the inhumane conditions. BUT, people would rather ignore that horses are starving or living in terrible conditions for long periods of time before they finally die or are discovered and put down so that they can feed the worms and buzzards. The result is death and consumption anyway. Just by a lower life form so why is that better than killing them to cut down on the lengthy suffering? And why is it better for the worms and buzzards to eat them then people?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I couldn't get the exact figures on horse slaughter in Iceland, but I would imagine they slaughter more than 200 a day, I know it is extremely common on the menu and they export a good deal as well. Although I highly doubt it's anywhere near our numbers. Also, something like 50% of the horse population is basically loose and only gathered 1-2x a year. Of course, they also eat a ton of those adorable little lamb creatures. 

Either which way, when I was there I ate horse. It tasted wonderful, but I couldn't get beyond the fact that I was eating one of those gorgeous ponies I'd been drooling over lol all day. So, I probably won't eat horse again and to be honest that experience made me decide to not try whale as well. I stuck to fish/seafood and lamb. Not sure why I don't have an issue eating an adorable baby sheep... 

All the same this whole issue is less about an argument of meat being meat than it is about people forcing their ideals and opinions upon other people. I doubt any of us would appreciate being forced to live as strict Muslims or Hindus or Mormons or Christians when we are not following that religion. Nor would most of us that enjoy meat be ok with banning wide scale chicken/egg production, which I find to be personally extremely distasteful.

It boils down to allowing people freedom to make their own decisions about how they are living their lives as long as they are not infringing upon someone else's freedom or endangering other people, butt out. Go ahead and express your opinion, but taking it to the point of bullying some business to stop selling a product that people want is taking it too far.

ETA - Actually upon thinking about it, less than 200 is probably accurate considering they only have 320,000 people on the island and they apparently only consume 3 kg a year of horse meat. A good majority of the horse meat is exported as well, but the only figure I could find was 1500 tons a year to the EU.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> ETA - Actually upon thinking about it, less than 200 is probably accurate considering they only have 320,000 people on the island and they apparently only consume 3 kg a year of horse meat. A good majority of the horse meat is exported as well, but the only figure I could find was 1500 tons a year to the EU.


You're ETA is correct. They only slaughter in the area of around 10,000 horses per hear (which is close to 20% of their horse population....they have a lot of horses for when you consider the amount of usable land....they have 5 glaciers...and almost all of the horses are left out doors year round). I highly recommend visiting Island if you ever get the chance. Food is pricy and it's not an inexpensive place to go, but it's an interesting place (and the Blue Lagoon is worth a day of swimming around in :lol. One of the most educated populations in the world. I think everyone on the island can read and the language hasn't changed much in 1,000 years (not many languages can say that).
Let's see, if we did 20% of just the US horse population that would be in the neighborhood of a little under 200,000 horses a year. Granted, that would only be a small dent in the number of unwanted, uncared for or poorly cared for horses (beyond the ones that are rescued) that need to be disposed of, but it's a start and saving a horse from suffering comes down to the same thing no matter what path is taken.
There's always going to be too many horses and they can't all be saved (even rescues shouldn't take some that are a risk). Even if the system was perfect and every horse was picked up by a rescue facility as soon as it become unwanted (unneeded, useless, dangerous, whatever word(s) work best) so that it didn't suffer, what are these facilities going to do? They'll never have the space to keep so many horses. Never have the money or resources to feed, provide medical care, etc....for all those horses. So what happens in the end? The excess equines that can't be placed in homes (that hopefully will keep them forever) will be disposed of (i.e. killed). Now what happens to all that highly nutritional and useful protein? Feed the worms? Feed the buzzards? Waste even more energy burning them (don't get the environmentalist started on what the environmental cost of burning so many horses will be....I'll agree with them :lol? Or feed people and other animals (lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, etc.... have to eat too).

The excess are going to be killed. That's what happens and so long as there are horses it will happen (been going on for 1,000's of years). That fact is unavoidable. So all we have to ask is what's the best use for the carcass after it's dead and no longer a "horse", but a piece of meat.

No one who doesn't want to eat horse has to. No one has to eat what they don't want (unless you were one of my children :rofl. I think the example already given a few times here is a good one. What if all the extreme animal rights folks who want to ban all animal protein (also egg and milk exploitation from those poor cows and chickens) managed to get the political pull to succeed (the dream of a few vegans :lol. I'm not talking about the ones that just want to eliminate "factory farming" (they sometimes have a point), but ones who believe killing or exploiting any animal is wrong and shouldn't be allowed. So your backyard chickens that give you eggs, your pigs that roam around the woods behind your house, and even the horses your ride all have to go or if you keep them it can't be for food and you have to keep them under conditions that nature intended for them (riding a horse is not what nature designed it for....so STOP exploiting you horse :lol: and let them be free to roam).
That's just as reasonable as banning the use of horses as food.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Oh and Tigerstipes. Only the part with the numbers of horses processed in Island was directed as a reply to you.  Just filling in more for your ETA.
The rest is just for anyone who reads it. (wasn't saying "you" should go to Island, since you've already been)


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

It is a beautiful place to visit, I'll definitely be going back. I spent 2 weeks driving around the entire country this last October and that wasn't nearly long enough!


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Who in _this _country is going to take the time to break all those slaughter bound horses to lead, and lead calmly?


Well that's exactly the problem isn't it? We're just not willing to go to those lengths for our animals.

And it's not my responsibility to come up with a "solution" because I never said that horse slaughter should be illegal. Just that _I_ will not be contributing to it. I'm not obligated to eat horse meat just because there are unwanted horses out there.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No one said you would be obligated to eat the meat. This whole thread isn't about being obligated to eat the meat, it was about being upset that the meat was _available_.

No one can force you to eat a meat you didn't want. I have eaten horse and didn't like it. Even if it were available in my markets, I wouldn't buy it...but I don't like fish or most types of pork either. All I'm saying is that it's not my place to get my panties in a bunch about seeing fish or pork chops in the meat isle *shrugs*.

Folks like different meats, all non-humans are meat animals in the grand scheme of things. If you don't approve of a certain meat...for whatever reason, then just don't buy it/eat it. It's that simple.

It's the folks who scream bloody murder about slaughter and then can't come up with a viable alternative that bug the crap out of me.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Well that's exactly the problem isn't it? We're just not willing to go to those lengths for our animals.
> 
> And it's not my responsibility to come up with a "solution" because I never said that horse slaughter should be illegal. Just that _I_ will not be contributing to it. I'm not obligated to eat horse meat just because there are unwanted horses out there.


No, that's not the problem. It's not about what lengths we are willing to go "for our animals". "We" are not willing to do that for "everyone else's" horse(s). And why should we (would you?) It's not necessary to lead a horse in by hand to be killed. It doesn't make them die any better. It's certainly not any more humane just because the horse is being lead. It might give someone a "warm fuzzy" because it "looks" nicer, but the reality is that it doesn't make a difference. If I walk a creature to the place it will die, give it a pat on the head, step back and it's killed that is no different than if the next creature rides in on a conveyor belt to the same point and is killed without the pat on the head. Neither one is any more or any less humane. It's been said to death. It's not the killing that's inhumane. It's the system that has to be used for hauling and holding, because there are so few processing centers (not sure if any have opened up recently, but for awhile it's seemed that they are all being shipped to Mexico or Canada). You can get a pig or cow processed within a couple hundred miles or less in most places (at least in the deep South), but horses have to hauled, held, hauled and held before they can reach their final destination, because the majority of people in the US are so hung up on animals being pets that they only care about not slaughtering them, even if it has to result in an even less humane situation for the animals (at least we didn't slaughter them so they could starve or die in some other more prolonged and unpleasant way).
Even the anti slaughter groups biggest point (which is not invalid) is the cruelty of getting the horses to the processing facility. They ignore that by shutting down and making it impossible to have more processing facilities they are contributing to the problem. Even the AVMA (the Vet equivalent to the AMA) realizes the problem and supports having more facilities in the US.

In the words of my CO (and my father too for that matter). "Don't want to hear about problems. Give me solutions".
So I DO have a solution for all the people who want to save all equines in the US from slaughter and all the people who want them to live humanely.
1. Proved me roughly 4 million (4,000,000) contiguous acres of acceptable rural land in the area of the deep South with a subtropical climate (most cost effective and healthy when you can graze almost all year) suitable for raising horses.
2. Provide me with a 501C3 status.
3. Grant me a waiver to provide the meat of horses when they die for use in feeding carnivores and meat eating animals.
4. Provide gov't funds to cover inspections, vet expenses, locating and transporting horses that need to be sent to this rescue facility, a sufficient number of wranglers, etc... (basically create a LOT of civil service jobs for the man power and activities required to operate a facility of this magnitude successfully and humanely).
5. Provide $50 billion ($50,000,000,000.00) in "seed" money to cover the cost of fencing, buildings, equipment, a needed medical facility, etc, etc, etc.... to include housing for the people who work this facility since they'll need to be living at various locations spread out over this massive area in order to do the job.

It will be monumental, but it will allow for all horses to avoid slaughter by being sent here to live out their life and die of natural (or at least relatively natural - e.g. colic- causes.
There's the solution to the problem and even the AVMA will likely support it from the humane position.

Now give the price tag to the American public, especially their political representation and see how far it gets. The 50 billion won't even be the biggest problem. It's the cost of all those new public sector jobs and the expenses of operating it. Granted the sale of the meat from the horse that eventually die will provide a small amount of income (and every little bit helps) but the vast majority will be bourn by the US taxpayer and you find that their love for the beautiful "pet" horses will disappear faster than an August snow fall in Miami. It's easy for people to say they want to don't want something when they don't see the whole picture and it doesn't directly impact them. But show them the whole situation and let them have to pay for the solution and it becomes a different matter.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We, (the taxpayers) already do that.

We've almost gone that far with the mustang surplus here on Oklahoma. We taxpayers only spend $100 million a year, mostly to keep aging old unadoptable mustangs on year 'round beautiful pastures until they die of natural causes. Some big ranches near here have sold all their cattle and run these aging mustangs and collect more than $1 million each for the herds of mustangs they pasture for us taxpayers. One ranch, owned by friends of ours up in Osage County, gets over $2 million a year.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Cherie said:


> We, (the taxpayers) already do that.
> 
> We've almost gone that far with the mustang surplus here on Oklahoma. We taxpayers only spend $100 million a year, mostly to keep aging old unadoptable mustangs on year 'round beautiful pastures until they die of natural causes. Some big ranches near here have sold all their cattle and run these aging mustangs and collect more than $1 million each for the herds of mustangs they pasture for us taxpayers. One ranch, owned by friends of ours up in Osage County, gets over $2 million a year.


Ah, but my way covers all equines (including the unwanted ones from the BLM) :lol:. Of course the annual cost will be MUCH higher, since it's many times that number of horses coming in annually (the civil service salaries alone for the number of people needed will be in the multi millions - in the 8 digits - not counting the rest of the massive operating expense). 4 million acres is a lot of real estate to maintain and the number of horses will be staggering so the expense of maintaining them will be too (but the feed bill will be comparative less per horse than in OK). Of course I'm gambling that the 4 million acres will be enough to handle the near steady stream of arrivals and that enough will die off before it reaches capacity so that before it maxes out the outgoing bodies will keep pace with the incoming rescues. Otherwise we'll have to get more money to buy more land and the additional cost of preparing it for keeping more horses. We'd have to have more land ready if the numbers start approaching 1.5 million rescues (and it could easily exceed that since they are all being kept until they die a natural death). A horse kept on grazing with good management and medical care can exceed 30 years so the facility could eventually end up with having to be 3X the size with all the associated cost.
We could end up being in the top 10 items on the budget, bases on cost. But before then the tax payer and gov't would say enough is enough and probably put a massive processing center on the facility to slaughter all horses over a certain age and start recouping some of the expense (and most of the population would be ok with that by then, because they won't want to keep paying equine welfare for every unwanted horse in the country)


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## sparks879 (Apr 14, 2013)

kiwi79 said:


> If a horse was slaughtered humanely and there was minimal suffering and ended up being sold in a butcher shop as opposed to a neglected horse left sitting in a paddock with inadequate care/feed then I know which one I would which one I would feel sorriest for. I find it interesting that this bothers you more than the racing industry which creates so many unwanted horses. I do not participate in anything relating to this industry for that reason but also accept that it is there and not likely to go anywhere anytime soon.


totally agree with this! I would much rather see an animal get slaughtered then be neglected. 
I used to raise dairy goats, I showed on a national level. Most times there were more little boys then were needed to breed. And not everyone wants a 200+ lb pet goat. I had a deal with a local raptor rehabilitation center. They came and got any male goat that was not good enough quality for breeding. They would raise them up to about eight months old and butcher them. they fed them to the birds. A lot of my friends thought this was horrible. But goats are cute when little, and a lot of people don't realize how much care they are. They need their feet trimmed every four weeks, and they don't eat everything contrary to popular belief. They are very needy animals and you cant just tie them out and expect them to behave. 
Horses were livestock long before we rode them and made them pets. and I would much rather see them not go to waste then be tied out and forgotten about.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Cherie said:


> We, (the taxpayers) already do that.
> 
> We've almost gone that far with the mustang surplus here on Oklahoma. We taxpayers only spend $100 million a year, mostly to keep aging old unadoptable mustangs on year 'round beautiful pastures until they die of natural causes. Some big ranches near here have sold all their cattle and run these aging mustangs and collect more than $1 million each for the herds of mustangs they pasture for us taxpayers. One ranch, owned by friends of ours up in Osage County, gets over $2 million a year.


Any idea how I can get in on that scheme? I would like to make $2 million to watch horses graze. 

Of course if that program is discontinued, we'll have more money for bombs and such we need.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

I wish there was an easy solution. I do know they could make the transport and slaughter process lots kinder.

There are things available in markets I wouldn't touch unless starvation was close.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Any idea how I can get in on that scheme? I would like to make $2 million to watch horses graze.


The people that collect $2 mil a year own 25,000 deeded acres of tall grass prairie plus leased ground in Northern Ok. 

The ranch out east of us is also around that size. Last I heard, they had almost 1500 mustang geldings (some may still be studs) that have all been declared 'un-adoptable'.

Back to that old saying "It takes money to make money".


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