# How to stop a horse that won't listen



## western walking horse (Nov 27, 2009)

a few questions how long has she been with this horse


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Try the one rein stop.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

i used a twisted wire bit ob my horse, you just have to be gentle most of the time, and really use it when you have too


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Borrow someones western bridle and give it a try. What have you got to loose? Just use the curb bit and curb chain and see if it works? Again what have you got to loose??

If you insist on keeping the snaffle then add a running martingale. It adds alot of control with the snaffle


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

She has been with this horse for three months because we moved the horses and they are by themselves.


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

I have tried the one rein stop but it makes her go faster in a circle.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Please don't go to a harsher bit, that is never the answer. For the one rein stop, you need to bend his nose to your boot, "stab" yourself in the thigh with your hand that is bending him, and PUSH yourself back into the saddle with your other hand to anchor your butt to the saddle. DO NOT release until his feet are stopped and he is soft in your hand. Work on bending him on the ground first so that it's easier in the saddle.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

1. When you go to stop, use a word. Like "hoooo" or "whoa" so she can associate stopping with a certain word.
2. Pull back giving and taking with your fingers, and tighten your butt muscles saying "whao" or "ho".

Just see what happens using a certain word she can eventually associate.

Would not reccommend buying any equipment or changing bits. It may work for a short while, but the problem will just get worse as time goes by.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Please don't go to a harsher bit, that is never the answer. For the one rein stop, you need to bend his nose to your boot, "stab" yourself in the thigh with your hand that is bending him, and PUSH yourself back into the saddle with your other hand to anchor your butt to the saddle. DO NOT release until his feet are stopped and he is soft in your hand. Work on bending him on the ground first so that it's easier in the saddle.


And what is wrong with a curb bit?? Nearly every western horse wears one and on the average I would say the western horses are easier/softer then english horses.
As for the one rein stop look at the second video. He talks about using all the power in your muscle that you can. Brace the feet forward and pull as hard as you can with your muscle??
What does she have to loose by trying a curb?? The curb is not harsh by nature and it is only the person using a bit that makes it harsh.
Did you notice that the guy in the one rein stop wore spurs???

Give the curb bit a try. Be gentle but if you ask the horse to stop and he doesn't then get harsh with a good pull on the bit. You might be suprised at the respect it gains you and you also might find you need only a light touch to stop him in future.
If you don't try something how do you know it doesn't work. Just because you use a snaffle doesn't mean you are not harsh on the horses mouth


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Make sure you're stopping with mainly your seat and weight. (It's should be firmly put back).
Especially willing, sensetive horses can be hard to stop if your seaty say forward and your rein say stop. Itr sounds just as Crow if I don't do it right. Works fine in walk, but the more speed the worse it is. I could pull his jaw off and it woyuldn't help if I'm not in a good seat. With a good seat, I barely touch the reins, if at all.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You should NEVER use a one rein stop with a curb bit! That's a great way to destroy a horse's mouth. You shouldn't have to go to a different bit for control....no matter what the bit is. Curb bits (some) themselves are not bad, but in this situation, IMO, it's not a right move to make.

The way I described doing the one rein stop is how I learned, and it works, and I don't really care what that guy says


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> 1.
> Would not reccommend buying any equipment or changing bits. It may work for a short while, but the problem will just get worse as time goes by.


Why do you say it will only work for a short while?? If you can shut the horse down great. If you use your hands gentle but when the need arrises you shut him down harder he will learn respect.
I don't know the rider or her strength but all too often I see little girls on big horses that they can not control. A snaffle bit has a 1 to 1 ratio while a curb can have 2 or 3 times the ratio giving the girl an added strength.

I train in a snaffle, use them for years and then switch to the curb for the rest of his life.
I know a number of dressage people and after a lesson they come out and complain about their sore hands and arms from pulling?? They pull back with their arms and push with thier legs to make the horse soft??

They ask me to ride their horses some times and I have never owned such hard mouthed animals.
You don't get soft mouthed animals but being gentle all the time. Yes soft gentle most of the time but when the time comes you shut them down quickly, harshly and then go back to being gentle.

Again what do you have to loose by borrowing a western bridle from someone and giving it a try. Is it going to suddenly make the horse hard to handle or ruin the mouth?? Give something a try before condeming it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Getting a horse soft in a snaffle isn't about yanking on them when they brace, it isn't about getting stronger and firmer and more aggressive....it requires FEEL, time, patience, and understanding WHY the horse is bracing or any other behavior. I've ridden hard mouthed horses, I've started horses in the bridle who have never had a bit in their mouths before, and I have NEVER been hard on their mouths. And a horse "respecting" stopping by being hard on them is not respect, it's fear of the pain the rider is inflicting.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> You should NEVER use a one rein stop with a curb bit! That's a great way to destroy a horse's mouth. You shouldn't have to go to a different bit for control....no matter what the bit is. Curb bits (some) themselves are not bad, but in this situation, IMO, it's not a right move to make.
> 
> The way I described doing the one rein stop is how I learned, and it works, and I don't really care what that guy says


 
I would never do a one rein stop in the first place. You hate curbs but have you honestly tried one on a horse that runs through a snaffle? HOw about a running martingale?? It too adds alot of control.

Again I don't know the OP? I don't know her skill level, her strength, or how strong her horse is but regardless a curb will give her a added advantage. Again alot of horses on this forum wear curbs with no ill effect.

To the OP. Give it a try and prove me wrong. Borrow a curb and just take a ride in it and see if you have more control. Borrow a running martingale, adjust it properly and see if that gives you more control using your existing snaffle?? What have you got to loose??


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

First of all, I don't hate curbs. Secondly, I have ridden horses in curbs before who were ready for a curb. Thirdly, I don't have horses who run through snaffles....and when I ride a horse, I always start in a halter and teach them self control...so I never have the issue of a horse running through the bit


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> I have a mare and she is perfect except when you try to stop her. She uses a plain snaffle and an english bridle but I guess she is hard mouthed. In a walk she is fine but in a trot takes a little longer to stop her. In a canter she is hopeless it take her fifteen strides to stop I have fallen off of her because she won't stop. Other than that she has no problem but she exspelily won't stop if her herd bound friend is not with her she gets all crazy and wants to run to the pasture. I tried for a week or two trying to stop her by going up and down fence lines at walk trot and canter but it does not seem to help. PLEASE HELP ME


How can this horse be perfect when she is unstoppable and herd bound? I don't understand how people can type this stuff and not realize that not only is she not perfect but she is fundementally unsafe.

Hire a trainer to fix her and then teach you how to ride her so it doesn't happen again.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Getting a horse soft in a snaffle isn't about yanking on them when they brace, it isn't about getting stronger and firmer and more aggressive....it requires FEEL, time, patience, and understanding WHY the horse is bracing or any other behavior. I've ridden hard mouthed horses, I've started horses in the bridle who have never had a bit in their mouths before, and I have NEVER been hard on their mouths. And a horse "respecting" stopping by being hard on them is not respect, it's fear of the pain the rider is inflicting.


I've started many horse too, rode bitless for more then 20 years, ride problem horses too with great success. So what?? Does it hurt the OP to try something different?? All the OP has to do it borrow a bridle and give it a try. It won't ruin the horse and she might be suprised. If a curb destroys the horse then try a running martingale? Adjusted properly. Your one rein stop video shows a running martingale plus SPURS?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Why do you say it will only work for a short while?? If you can shut the horse down great. If you use your hands gentle but when the need arrises you shut him down harder he will learn respect.
> .


I think if the OP was horseman enough to do this she wouldn't have the problem she has now. Most of the time when a horse gets a hard mouth it's because they are not getting the release of pressure when they perform what is being ask of it.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Hire a trainer to fix her and then teach you how to ride her so it doesn't happen again.


Kevin I could fix her quickly but to what end?? Give her back and most of the time they revert back to their old self. It is not a horse problem but a rider problem. You have to fix your own problems. Sure I will ride a run away, shut her down hard a few times then turn the horse back to her owner and if she doesn't do as you recommend the horse will revert back to the same old problems.
Skilled riders don't have these problems


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> I have tried the one rein stop but it makes her go faster in a circle.


You're not doing it correctly.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Kevin I could fix her quickly but to what end?? Give her back and most of the time they revert back to their old self. It is not a horse problem but a rider problem. You have to fix your own problems. Sure I will ride a run away, shut her down hard a few times then turn the horse back to her owner and if she doesn't do as you recommend the horse will revert back to the same old problems.
> *Skilled riders don't have these problems*


But it takes a skilled rider to fix them. That's why she needs to learn to ride.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

You need to teach a horse a one rein stop before getting in the saddle. They need to actually stop and flex on the ground before you get on them. When you are on they have to actually stop before you give.


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## Hunter (Oct 9, 2009)

*Quick easy emergancy stop that I learned before I even got in the saddle, Your horse wont stop, Grab which ever rein you have, pull it hard to your knee. This has not failed to stop any horse I know.. As for her to stop, as for her to stop again, then demand it and swing her head around. She will teach herself that it is easier to stop the first of secound time you ask, then to spin.. Be ready with your leg as you do it too : ) Try westurn for a bit, You will stay in the saddle easier.*


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Hunter said:


> *Quick easy emergancy stop that I learned before I even got in the saddle, Your horse wont stop, Grab which ever rein you have, pull it hard to your knee. This has not failed to stop any horse I know.. As for her to stop, as for her to stop again, then demand it and swing her head around. She will teach herself that it is easier to stop the first of secound time you ask, then to spin.. Be ready with your leg as you do it too : ) Try westurn for a bit, You will stay in the saddle easier.*


According to the expert on the video pulling to the knee is wrong. It uses shoulder muscles to pull to the knee and your arm muscles are stronger by pulling straight back. Seems that pulling with all your might is ok as long as you are using one rein but if you use a curb and pull with 2 hands you are wrong?????
One rein stops on a speeding horse can be very dangerous, particilarly out in the open where it involves circling off the trail.


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## Hunter (Oct 9, 2009)

And if your horse is about to jump a fence? Or stop dead at it and send you flying over it. I was taught that you pull to your knee, which gives them enough ease to turn their Head right away, My shoulders are stronger then my arms, in lifting weights area haha.. 
Try which ever one works, Most of the horse I have ridden spin faster when it goes to your knee. But I guess it all depends on how you ride. I find it easy to slide my hands forward and turn them. I find that just pulling back give the horse a chance to grab the bit and not let it go, but if instead of using the pressure points you just pull their heads around, I guess it works that way as well.. Hmm which ever one your horse does.. The horse I have at the moment dosn't listen to the pull back : )


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yea, um, I didn't post that one rein stop video, and whatever that guy suggests I don't agree with....I actually never suggest anyone ride in a martingale, so comparing what I do to that video is absurd.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> How can this horse be perfect when she is unstoppable and herd bound? I don't understand how people can type this stuff and not realize that not only is she not perfect but she is fundementally unsafe.
> 
> Hire a trainer to fix her and then teach you how to ride her so it doesn't happen again.



Kevin,
I think we must have gone to the same school or something as this is what I was thinking also.

Let's look at the environmental problems here for a moment.

Herd bound horse.
No stop.
Questionable training background of rider and horse.
No trainer.
Owner thinks the horse is perfect.


Start with basic ground work because there is a chance that the horse is not even green broke!

Do you know how to ground drive?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> One rein stops on a speeding horse can be very dangerous, particilarly out in the open where it involves circling off the trail.


 
Very true!! One rein stop is a great tool but you can't use it always and if you haven't done the homework it won't work on the runaway anyways. I have had a horse runaway with its head pulled clear to the side. It was far more frightening than a regular runaway and I learned a great lesson about preparing a horse to use the one rein stop.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Spirit-I was just using the video as an example. 

Kevin-I agree. But she was saying the horse won't stop period. I wouldn't one rein stop a run away but I would for one that wouldn't stop at a slower gait.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> Kevin-I agree. But she was saying the horse won't stop period. I wouldn't one rein stop a run away but I would for one that wouldn't stop at a slower gait.


A run away is a run away regardless of how much ground your covering.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Well...what would you do in this case?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes, I wouldn't use it on a horse that was going full out, they can flip over. However if the horse is trotting or cantering and won't stop, I won't hesitate to bend them around. If the horse is going full out, do a spiral coming down to a stop.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> Well...what would you do in this case?


I wouldn't get on him untill he understood how to stop and I wouldn't ridde at a trot untill he could stop at a walk ect. ect.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Just going to put in my 2c since I not only had my horse take off on me today, but he also bucked.....

I used a deep seat AND voice commands. When he was still jittery and felt like he could take off again, I turned him in tight circles till he calmed down, because he's not flexible enough to do a one rein stop. It also helped that I was steering him towards a group of jumps, none of which he would have gone over to save his life.

But I agree with the other people that he needs to get back to groundwork/stopping/moving away from the herd at a walk. Trotting and cantering while trying to teach a horse something just make the issue worse. Thats like trying to swim in the deep end when you haven't even learned how to keep yourself above water.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> Well...what would you do in this case?


If that horse was at my barn and I was asked to ride him I would stop him. I would use a simple curb bit and chain and when I asked/told him to stop he would stop. I have done this alot for others and I have yet to run into a horse I couldn't stop. It might take me a few tries before a simple word from me brought the horse to a sliding stop but he gets 2 stops the hard way and on the 3rd he will stop on his own and hard.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I wouldn't get on him untill he understood how to stop and I wouldn't ridde at a trot untill he could stop at a walk ect. ect.



.... I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like the horse needs to be taken back to step 1 in an enclosed area.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If that horse was at my barn and I was asked to ride him I would stop him. I would use a simple curb bit and chain and when I asked/told him to stop he would stop. I have done this alot for others and I have yet to run into a horse I couldn't stop. It might take me a few tries before a simple word from me brought the horse to a sliding stop but he gets 2 stops the hard way and on the 3rd he will stop on his own and hard.


Maybe thats why your horses listen so well to you? I'd listen to anyone who was going to jab me in the mouth with a needle, but not because i really wanted to do what they were asking me....You may know how to use a curb, but I'm guessing she does not. Why don't you try censoring your advice based on what you perceive to be the riders level of experience rather than giving a bunch of generalized statements, and then getting belligerent when people disagree with you because we actually tailor our responses.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I'm sorry but putting a curb in a horses mouth who may have never had a curb in his mouth could potentially lead to more problems (head tossing, or possibly even an out right flip out, because he doesn't understand the pressure!); no matter what way you suger coat it, tossing a curb in only coats the problem. 

Curbs DO have their place, but NOT in an instance like this; you might get him stopping, but like justsambam pointed out, I would probably do it too after a couple of good yanks on my mouth! But it certainly wouldn't be because I 'understood' that pressure, but because it hurt NOT too! 

To the OP, please go back to the basics, and don't proceed with any faster gaits until she listens to you at a walk first; and preferably to your seat, more so than a raising of your hands. Teach her the one rein stop, as that will not only help you supple her up, but will give you an 'emergency' type stop should she not listen the first time you have asked. Taught correctly, it will put a stop to a run-a-way instance; but she needs to learn it too from walk first, then progress from there.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Maybe thats why your horses listen so well to you? I'd listen to anyone who was going to jab me in the mouth with a needle, but not because i really wanted to do what they were asking me....You may know how to use a curb, but I'm guessing she does not. Why don't you try censoring your advice based on what you perceive to be the riders level of experience rather than giving a bunch of generalized statements, and then getting belligerent when people disagree with you because we actually tailor our responses.


 I don't understand why everyone is against using a curb. It is nothing but a snaffle with a multiplicator. Half the people on this forum use one. Go to the western section and there are lots of posters with curb bits. They are no harsher then snaffles. It is just that you can exert increased force if you require it.
Do do not get light horses by being light all the time. It is all about giving a suttle cue and then following it up with a harsher one. Someone who is gentle all the time will end up with a hard mouthed horse
If you do a simple weight shift, a slight movement of the rein, apply a slight pressure with your leg and the horse doesn't respond then follow it up with a harsher command, one he can't ignore. That is how you get light responsive horses that respond to the first cue, the light one.
I don't haul on my horses mouth, I barely touch it but BUT if he doesn't respond to the slight pressure I will back it up with a much firmer command.
As for being happy, fearful. BS. The girl hanging on the mouth is alot harder on the horse then one that knews the rules of the game. The one that yeilds but still doesn't get releif is the abused animal here.
So back to the curb. I see alot of horses in the snaffle raising their head to escape the bit while horses in a curb can't escape by raising their heads. The curb chain keeps the bit against the bars.
A running martingale keeps the bit against the bars also.
Both seem to be taboo around here.

A top trainer in my eyes is Al Dunning, google him. He always starts a horse in a running martingale. It doesn't do anything if the horse keeps his head down put if the horse puts his head up to escape the bit it comes into play.

Again a curb is nothing but a snaffle with mulitplation capabilities and used softly is gentler then a snaffle on a horse. Most western contented horses use a curb.

If the girl is having a run through the bit problem why can't see just try a curb, borrow one and give it a try?????
Don't be so narrow minded.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Maybe thats why your horses listen so well to you? I'd listen to anyone who was going to jab me in the mouth with a needle, .


Just noticed the needle?? Where did that come from??
As for hores listening to me?? They do it because they know the rules. You need to define your rules and stick to them.. Animals do not fear me, dogs, cats , horses because I treat them with kindness and respect but they NOW THE RULES, keep within those rules and you will be spoiled, set outside and there a consequences.
I take care of the hoof needs of a 25 horse barn therefore I have to handle every one of those horses and they respond to me better then alot of their owners. Hard to catch horse?? They come to me??
Why????

Horses need boundaries, they need to know what is acceptable, what is not, cross the line, they get punished, stay on the right side and you shower them with praise.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is a girl having the same problems as the OP is having. It is from another forum but this is the suggestions she got there. 
haflinger is too strong, how to bit her? - Chronicle Forums


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I don't understand why everyone is against using a curb. It is nothing but a snaffle with a multiplicator. Half the people on this forum use one. Go to the western section and there are lots of posters with curb bits. They are no harsher then snaffles. It is just that you can exert increased force if you require it.
> Do do not get light horses by being light all the time. It is all about giving a suttle cue and then following it up with a harsher one. Someone who is gentle all the time will end up with a hard mouthed horse
> If you do a simple weight shift, a slight movement of the rein, apply a slight pressure with your leg and the horse doesn't respond then follow it up with a harsher command, one he can't ignore. That is how you get light responsive horses that respond to the first cue, the light one.
> I don't haul on my horses mouth, I barely touch it but BUT if he doesn't respond to the slight pressure I will back it up with a much firmer command.
> ...


Because generally the problem isn't the bit, (_and a curb does give different cues than a snaffle._) If the problem isn't the bit, and you use a sharper bit withuot fixing the real problem, you're just gonna go down even further.

But then sometimes a curb can make life easier as well I've switched to a curb on Crow now for two reasons; i fiddle too much when I have a snaffle, but I don't dare to do that with a curb but use completely loose reins  And, he doesn't stop as fast as I'd like. He stops but it takes a little while of slowly slowing down. I got a little tired of it and wanted something that ''woke him up'' without me jabbing him or pull to hard. Since he's used to be ridden in halters, simple snaffles or other bitless things, I barely had to touch the reins at all to get his focus back on me whn he didn't stop at my seat cues. I think it's mainly that they wern't clear enough for him to understand that they mean ''stop, and stop now'' rather than ''slow down a little''. Soon enough I hope that the stop will be reinforced and work with seat only.

I still say that most of the times a harsher bit isn't the solution tho.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

the whole point of this is to help this girl out. to fight over your methods is rediculous. everyone does it their own way. i do believe in the one rein stop. but if your horse is not used to this, you need to back up and do this on the ground. bending your horses head to the side (flexion) and getting them soft before you get in the saddle. when your in the saddle, do it several times again. they are going to move,,, but move with them or as in the saddle dont let go until their feet stop moving. takes alot of patience!!!!! you work your way up to the trot and so forth. and yeah, your arms will hurt. especially if you have a hard mouthed horse. letting go before they bend that neck to their belly only defeats the purpose. this girl needs a safe way to do this and starting out on the ground is my recommendation. horse buddy/sour, can be fixed too. if your horse wants to be with his buddy so bad. let him. but work him/her in and around his buddy. only taking her/him out of the pasture to rest. the reward of not working is being away from buddy. give it time and you will get results.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mbender said:


> the whole point of this is to help this girl out. to fight over your methods is rediculous. .


I am offering help. I am suggesting TRYING a curb bit and see if it helps. What does she have to loose???
You do your one rein stop, I recommend the curb.
It is up to her if she wants to try one method or the other.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

i agree with you. like i said, everyone has their own opinions and ways of training. curb bit may work, one rein may work, whatever it is, she will find a solution. i dont even know what a curb bit is. when it comes to bits,,,, i get lost. trying to learn more about them. but having a relationship and trust with your horse does also play out on training.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

To the OP, here is the way I personally would deal with the situation, were I In your shoes:

1) Get a stop on the ground. If you don't have it in the saddle, it's probably faulty on the ground, too. I recommend leading her in hand doing walk/halt, trot/walk, trot/halt transitions, in that progression. When you halt, say "whooooaaaaa." It's just another bolster to your cue. Get the mare stopping with you on a slack lead. If you can get the same response at liberty, so much the better, but I'm happy if my horses do this task on a slack lead.

2) Saddle up with whatever saddle you're most comfortable in and a snaffle bridle (loop reins, not split). ONLY WALK. Think about your own position, your seat especially. Sit deep and follow the motion of the horse's body, and be as relaxed as possible. Let the reins be slack, don't touch her mouth unless you're asking for something at this point. If you're in her mouth all the time, more pulling means nothing to her. I see lots of people with problems stopping simply because the horse is desensitized to bit/halter pressure. When you're ready, still the motion of your hips, stop following the motion, restrict it. Exhale and say "whooooaaaa." That should remind her that the expectation that she stop her feet has not changed. ONLY if she's still walking at this point, pick up one rein about halfway down it's length, and smoothly bring it to where the seam of your jeans meets your belt. When she stops her feet, release the rein and rub her withers. 

3) When she no longer walks through everything but the single rein, try picking up 2 reins at that point. Your hands should still be the last resort to stopping her. Granted, in an emergency whatever stops you safely stops you safely, but building a correct and respectful halt will dramatically decrease the number and frequency of emergencies.


My comments on previous points that jump out at me:


One rein stop takes away the "braceability" of the two rein hold, and is much more effective at getting a give from a stiff horse. Can be dangerous... best to teach it to the horse before you need it, and to soften and spiral a full out runner. I agree wholeheartedly with whoever said that a runaway is a runaway no matter how much or little ground is covered. Amen.

Any dressage rider who is sore in the arms from pulling the horse into frame or into a slower gait isn't doing it right. The horse can feel a fly land on his back, think about that sensitive mouth tissue! If he understands what you're asking, most are willing to comply with a bit cue with mere ounces of pressure on the mouth, (if any, providing that the rider is applying seat first). Riding isn't about strength, in my own relatively short and sheltered experience. It's about building a foundation (or filling the holes in the existing one) as gently as possible and as firmly as necessary. With a good foundation, the "as firmly as necessary" probably won't be beyond the physical strength of the average woman. If it were, I think we would either be seeing a lot fewer horse enthusiasts, or a lot more men in the barns, trails, and arenas of the world.

Curbs are great bits, but to one rein stop in a curb can have its own problems, mainly because they're designed, if to be touched at all, to be touched with 2 reins at the same time. Mechanically, it just doesn't work to 2 hand or single rein a curb. That being said, if I were on a runaway wearing a curb, I'd get it to stop, probably one reining a spiral. It's more of a finished horse's bit, and the horse wearing it is assumed to understand the rudiments of stopping and turning. It is a refining bit. 

Back to the OP: Take it back to square 1. Build a stop from a walk in an enclosed area, and go from there. Maybe invest in some lessons on a schoolmaster and get the feel for riding a well broke horse, and what a good whoa is all about.

Good luck!


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

I say whoo and she does not listen


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> I say whoo and she does not listen



Then teach her what "Whoo" means.

It could just be that she IS listening BUT does not understand.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Then teach her what "Whoo" means.
> 
> It could just be that she IS listening BUT does not understand.


Precisely. That's why I recommend using the verbal "whoa" on the ground and building the halt there first, that way when you try it under saddle, there is a common denominator between the two requests, that otherwise have fairly different cues for the horse. From pressure on the top of the nose to in the mouth, weight on the back, and whatever else you normally do to ask for a whoa astride.

In my experience, there are 2 kinds of misbehavior in horses. 1) Willful disobedience, usually a lack of respect, and not viewing the handler as a more dominant (for lack of a better word right now) herd member, and 2) Misunderstanding, either from lack of exposure to what the handler is asking (the horse is learning something totally new), or from confusion (the horse has mislearned something, or learned something in a different way from what is actually being asked for). Confusion can come from inconsistency in cueing, or from pushing the horse to fast in training, generally, but there can definitely be other sources. It sounds to me (granted, over the Internet it's hard to say much definitively) that your mare, who is "perfect" in every other way, is not understanding how to halt on cue, for whatever reason, and things are getting out of hand.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Wow some of you are down right rude. I could be wrong but sounds to me like a younger girl and her first horse. _Of course_ its perfect in her eyes, its her baby! Judging by her other post she loves her little mare. My first horse, whom I still own, bit me, kicked me, bucked me off, took off, never stopped. She was perfect to me, a dream come true. Sure we had issues but when you toss a ten year old weighing 65 pounds soaking wet out on a horse in a field... Uh duh?! I was so clueless about horses when we purchased her that I didn't even know if her ears were suppose to bend so I could put them in the bridle, didn't want to hurt her you know ; -)

Rios dad has given good advice. A girl with out the muscle against a stubborn pony could use a little more pull. Fancy girl try a tom thumb snaffle or curb bit with chain chin strap. Make sure when she slows or does as asked that you give her back her head as reward, do not keep the level of contact you would with a basic snaffle. Don't be afraid to pull hard however and give her a deep, mean, loud WHOA when asking her to stop! When she does stop, even pause at first, release and say good girl! My guess is this mare knows what to do, shes pulling your leg and being with her buddy munching looks like more fun. 
I also agree sending the pony to the trailer would do next to nothing if its a simple matter of big pony/little girl. As Rio said I to could stop her on a dime but that doesn't help if she stops for me, not her rider.

OP Do you have a friend who could help, a trainer, someone with more experience? Its hard for anyone to give advice over the internet. You can try the one rein stop, its never worked for me either though, I prefer they stop the normal way  
Don't be discouraged. As I said years ago my mare was a snot to she even had me tricked into thinking horses couldn't ride in the snow!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> try a tom thumb snaffle or curb bit with chain chin strap.


Unless you are talking about the Australian Tom Thumb - It's not a snaffle.

Sorry, but i'm a stickler for this :]


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

^^ Me, too! A true snaffle does not have shanks. And a TT is pretty harsh, and really just a crap bit.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry, experts. The package & my old dressage instructor who recommended them back in the day both call them tom thumb snaffle. Call them what _you_ like, I'm a big tom thumb bit fan and use them on most of our horses. However since they sell them called, and I quote, Copper Plated Tom Thumb Western *Snaffle* Bit - Chrome W/ Copper 5"... I'll continue to call them just that


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

People interested in learning a little more about Tom Thumb bits.

http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Except that it is incorrect :]

A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio. A curb or gag is any bit with a pressure ratio greater than 1:1 - it is as simple as that. Not bit with shanks can EVER be a snaffle.

A tom thumb is simply a broken mouthed curb.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

New_image said:


> Call them what _you_ like, I'm a big tom thumb bit fan and use them on most of our horses. However since they sell them called, and I quote, Copper Plated Tom Thumb Western *Snaffle* Bit - Chrome W/ Copper 5"... I'll continue to call them just that


Fine. Be ignorant if you want. Never mind that the magazine writers are regular people just like you and me. They are just out to get money; not to educate you on bit fundamentals. 

Curb-wise, I agree with RiosDad to a certain extent.. Yes you have nothing to lose, however I'd rather start off RIGHT. Curbs are nice, snaffles are nice. I'd recommend a pelham. A good in-between bit if I had to choose one


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I don't feel I am being ignorant by calling a bit by the name on its package. If someone wrote that Sony TVs weren't TVs they are T's I guess I'd still call them a TV  The maker of the bits call them this, someone in some magazine calls them something else so I should... who really cares anyway? Pretty sure thats not what this thread is about and I don't care to argue. Have it ya'lls way its a "tom thumb pretty mucha curb but broken not snaffle" and I'll remember it.

... Interesting article btw, I have never read this about these bits. I have never had any confused horses so I'm not sure what to think as far as the article but I guess I'll keep that in mind, makes me want to go watch someone turn and stop a horse with that bit, I'd never noticed before. Lucky me I only have about 47 bits to replace if I opted away from them.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I agree with the people that said "teach her what whoa means".
If she is hard to stop at the faster gates,start working on "whoa" at a walk.Beats me why someone would lope a horse knowing, they are hard to stop.
Thats irresponsible and just asking for trouble.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Except that it is incorrect :]
> 
> A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio. A curb or gag is any bit with a pressure ratio greater than 1:1 - it is as simple as that. Not bit with shanks can EVER be a snaffle.
> 
> A tom thumb is simply a broken mouthed curb.


 
You are absolutely right. The mouth piece has nothing to do with deciding if it is a curb or snaffle. The location of the reins to the bit are the only thing that decides if it is a snaffle or not.
If the reins have no mechanical advantage by coming directly off the bit it is a snaffle no matter what mouth piece it has.
_If the reins are attached below the mouth piece causing a mechanical advantage it is a curb, no matter what the mouth piece looks like._

_He keeps referring to the tom thumb as a snaffle with shanks?? That is wrong._

_Also interesting that he says that when you pull the left rein it is the mouth piece sliding through the mouth and when the right ring hits the mouth it pulls the horse to the left?? I always thought it was the contact between the bit on the left side bar when the left rein is pulled??_


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> I agree with the people that said "teach her what whoa means".
> If she is hard to stop at the faster gates,start working on "whoa" at a walk.Beats me why someone would lope a horse knowing, they are hard to stop.
> Thats irresponsible and just asking for trouble.


You can teach all the WHOA you want but when something happens that the horse gets too excited it will run right through your training and the bit and your skill at using it are the only things you have left. That or your strength.
An example. You are riding through the bush and a hunter suddenly fires a gun, very close scaring the crap out of you and your horse. Do you think your trained whoa are going to stop this scared horse??? or is it going to take off running wildly through the forest?? Try your one rein stop in a dense bush on a running horse??
If you have a good bit or strength you can set that horse right down on his butt before any real damage is done. All the controlled training you have done in a controled situation goes right out the window.

Any body that rides a horse that is capable of running right through their bit and the rider knows this is a brave soul. Alot braver then me. I know at all times I can shut my horse down hard and fast. I would not ride knowing a horse could run out from under me. I am not that brave.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

When I first started riding my lease hose Duke, he scared the crap outta me. Could not stop him. They had a plain snaffle on him (the most overrode bit in the world). Check out Myler bits.

I switched to a kimberwick and had absolutely no problems with him. Being a percheron he was a very strong horse.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Riosdad I wasn't referring to runaways.Runaways are totally different than a horse that just takes awhile to stop.Iv rode both and I'm pretty sure you have to.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

It isn't ignorant to call the bit what it sayd on the package. It IS ignorant, and choosingly, to continue to label it incorrectly when you now know better.

The misslabelling of the tom thumb curb is not just a simple mistake - It encourages begginer horse people to use it because of the term 'snaffle' - The mildest of bits; when it is actually very different in action, use and intent to a snaffle and not altogether appropriate for begginner people or horses.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> a horse that just takes awhile to stop.


So you wouldn't canter ANY horse that takes a while to stop? Wow. That would cut out about half of the horses i've ridden and competed in my lifetime!


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Are you serious? Did you read both of my post or just skim through it and pick out something and quote it?

This forum has gone so downhill since I joined a few years ago.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> If she is hard to stop at the faster gates,start working on "whoa" at a walk.Beats me why someone would lope a horse knowing, they are hard to stop.
> Thats irresponsible and just asking for trouble.





> Riosdad I wasn't referring to runaways.Runaways are totally different than a horse that just takes awhile to stop.


Yup, read your whole post. Did you?


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

> Yup,





> read





> your





> whole





> post.





> Did





> you?


 Thats correct



So your saying, you competed on a horse/horses that you KNEW had issues with stopping, but you ran them anyways without TRYING to fix the problem first???

Or are you just boasting about being brave?? 
I'm confused :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ yep, because I ride mounted games, on borrowed ponies, and you have a total of about 3 minutes riding before you race them. Not much can be fixed in that time. My personal horses? I still ride, but while i'm riding I work on the problem. It makes sense not not to canter a horse if it bolts - But just hard to stop? It just seems like overkill to me. I prefer to fix problems in the saddle, as they happen.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

My point is.... YOU know how to work with stopping problems,*The OP doesn't.* You originally misunderstood what I had said and took it as "I wouldn't do it,thats dangerous".I know how to work with stopping problems,*the OP doesn't*.Therefor she is riding a train wreck and is asking for advice on a forum.Not good

Iv said all iv gotta say so I'm done.
,peace


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Okay, from what I've skimmed, I agree %110 with ScoutRider.

Teach 'Whoa' on the ground first. Start by working on it on a lead rope at the walk, then trot, then on a lunge line at the WTC. She needs to learn that whoa means "all four feet stop NOW" not "stop when I feel like it".

After that, I'd see if I could get a pelham (not single jointed), with two reins. I love this bit for strong horses because you have a regular bit + emergency brake to be used at your discretion.

Now, starting at the walk, work simply on walk-halt-walk transitions, getting your horse listening to you. Pay attention to your position and breathing, and work on getting her to stop from your seat and thighs. Then, try it at the trot.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I don't think a pelham is a good bit for an inexperienced rider....too many things could go wrong in that situation.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I think that the OP is still trying to stop that horse because she never came back.
Sooner or later the horse has to slow down I think.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I don't think a pelham is a good bit for an inexperienced rider....too many things could go wrong in that situation.


As opposed to when the inexperienced rider can't stop her horse. Not much can go wrong in that situation.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

This is a training issue, not a bit issue....the OP doesn't need a harsher/special bit to stop her horse, bits should not be used to stop horses. It just takes proper, consistent foundation training.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Just noticed the needle?? Where did that come from??
> As for hores listening to me?? They do it because they know the rules. You need to define your rules and stick to them.. Animals do not fear me, dogs, cats , horses because I treat them with kindness and respect but they NOW THE RULES, keep within those rules and you will be spoiled, set outside and there a consequences.
> I take care of the hoof needs of a 25 horse barn therefore I have to handle every one of those horses and they respond to me better then alot of their owners. Hard to catch horse?? They come to me??
> Why????
> ...


I agree with you 100%. Check some of my other posts, and I'm not a horse hugger in any way. My TB knows what he can and can't get away with, and what will happen if he tries to pull stupid crap. I've even considered using a curb or a ported bit on him because he has a huge tongue and hates his snaffle. BUT, I am not a novice rider. I know how to have light hands, how to one rein stop a horse that takes off on me, and I know how a curb bit works on a horses mouth. I'm a western rider. *The OP sounds like a novice*, so even borrowing one without knowing how to use it would be unwise. If she treats a curb bit like she does her snaffle, yanking on it to get him to stop, she's going to have a ****ed off horse who will probably dead stop, and then do who knows what else. Maybe rear, maybe buck, maybe fall over on top of her....maybe even just continue going if he's ****ed off enough.

I am not against curb bits. I'm against uneducated people using equipment incorrectly. The comparison of the needle came from the fact that some bits when used incorrectly stab or pinch a horses mouth.....ever had a shot of novicaine at the dentist? I personally don't like that feeling, and I can't imagine a horse would either.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I don't think a pelham is a good bit for an inexperienced rider....too many things could go wrong in that situation.


I agree that generally a pelham isn't the best with an inexperienced rider. However, when it comes down it it, an inexperienced rider shouldn't be riding a horse without brakes to begin with. 

As it stands now, I think the pelham is the lesser of two evils. Also, I agree that this is a training issue not a bit issue. That's the beauty of a pelham. It allows you to work through the problem in a simple snaffle, and you only need to use the curb rein in an "Oh crap" situation where you NEED to be able to stop for safety reasons. Like I said, it's an emergency brake.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry - I'm getting used to this forum. I wrote this post in response to the *first page* -- when I hit submit, I suddenly saw I missed 7 pages. 

I have a couple of follow up questions to ask the OP:

Does the mare respond to voice commands? 

Is the reason she is harder to stop at the canter have something to do with her balance at that gait or do you feel like she's just ignoring you?

Is your postion secure? Meaning are you confident that you're sitting up, seat in the saddle and using your weight, seat, voice *and* reins to ask for the whoa? 

Can you have someone observe you on her and critique your postiion and use of aids; and make sure you're asking correctly and clearly? 

As a general rule, if a horse isn't respecting the bit, it doesn't matter *which* bit they're not respecting. I wouldn't immediately jump to tack to fix what sounds like a training problem. 

Sounds like you had a good idea working her up and down the fence line and working on downward transitions; I would try more of that ensuring that I gave very obvious cues - sit, use your voice, big pull and release. If you don't get an adequate response with clear aids repeated 2 - 3x, go ahead and do whatever you need to do to get the stop, including a pulley rein or one rein stop. Keep repeating in a clear sequence - ask nicely twice, then do whatever it takes to get the whoa. Pretty quickly she'll start to anticipate this sequence and start braking the first time your ask. 

If you do opt to try another bit, go a small step up - a twisted snaffle would be sensible, just something to get a little more attention and respect. 

Remember that a bit in a horse's mouth does nothing physically to stop the horse; it's how we train the horse to respond to the bit. There's value in changing bits occassionally to freshen or sharpen a horse's response, but there's no special magic in a new bit that replaces the need for training. 

RiosDad, I generally wouldn't advise someone riding English to go straight to a curb bit, particularly a Western style curb with long shanks, ie, a leverage bit. They're designed to be used while riding mostly on a loose rein, with only brief periods of the leverage coming into play. Not suitable for a horse that will be ridden on constant contact as most English horses are. You're right, there's nothing inherently wrong with the bit. However, I have seen horses new to curb bits react *very* strongly to opening their jaw and hitting the curb chain the first time, and that's something you want to try in a controlled situation.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

maura said:


> Remember that a bit in a horse's mouth does nothing physically to stop the horse; it's how we train the horse to respond to the bit. .


If the bit doesn't physically stop the horse what does?? You are saying "training"

Then how is it that I get on young stallions with no trianing and almost immediately head out into the open fields and the bush?? I hate round pens, to confining and I don't like outdoor arenas so it is the open fields for me and my new guys?
Yes I get bucking at times and I get a sudden leap forward into an attempted run but I shut anything down withing a jump or two. Anything.
If it is training then the horse learned quickly?? I also ride with a copper "D" ring snaffle.

If I am dealing with someone elses runaway, a horse that will not stop regardless of what the owner does then I put in a ported curb, heavy reins and I WILL stop that guy quickly.
If someone asks me to ride a runaway I head into a big open field and ask for a run, a good run and when I decide I yell WHOA and put on the brakes with everything I have, my shoulders, my legs and I will shut that horse down with a sliding stop. I then repeat, another hard run and the big WHOA with no warning and again hit the horse hard with the bit.
The horse will slide to a stop and stand there shaking.
I then ask for the 3rd run and this time when I decide I yell WHOA but do not touch the reins.
EVERY time I have done this to a horse they stop on their own when I yell WHOA. Again they stand and shake but this time I get off , praise the horse and then remount and with a loose rein walk the horse home with lots of praise.
Funny but this seems to cure the run away and put a good stop on them. I ran into one of the horses I did at a rental stable years later and I asked how she was doing. The only complaint they had was about her stop?? If any of the renters yelled WHOA she stopped tooooo quickly.:lol:
Guess my training stuck.

What is better?? A roughed up horse that learned a valueable lesson or a runaway that is likely to injure his rider and himself and probably end up being sold?


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If I am dealing with someone elses runaway, a horse that will not stop regardless of what the owner does then *I put in a ported curb,* *heavy reins and I WILL stop that guy quickly.*


And THIS my friend, is how you make a hard mouth


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> And THIS my friend, is how you make a hard mouth


Actually - While you may not agree with it, Riosdad's methods actually make for a very soft mouthed horse. You don't acheive a soft mouth through always being soft - You *can* achieve it by asking softly but shutting down hard if you don't get the response. You may not like it, but it is VERY effective at creating a soft mouthed, responsive horse.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Fighting a horse in his mouth with a curb does not equal a soft mouth.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Fighting a horse in his mouth with a curb does not equal a soft mouth.


I never said it did.

Asking softly and then following through with a consequence - As Riosdad puts it shutting him down - DOES. There are many, many BNT who successfully use this method to train. It just depends on how far they take the consequence.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> What is better?? A roughed up horse that learned a valueable lesson or a runaway that is likely to injure his rider and himself and probably end up being sold?


I agree with this - I leased a pony when I was younger who had a neck like cement and who had been horribly spoiled by the owner. I was ten - I had NO HOPE of stopping this pony when she bolted (as she did every ride) no matter what bit - I just didn't have the strength. It taught me a lot, but it also put me in a lot of unecessary danger and scared the cr*p out of me. That pony could have been changed into an awesome little pony if someone had shut her down hard a few times so she respected the stop. 

Not all problems can be fixed from the ground or with a soft touch.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

^I agree it can work, but it greatly depends on how it's used.

Personally, I've been known to sit a horse or two down before if they're iffy about the brakes. 

But, this is on horses that know better, or it's a safety situation.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Exactly - The situation determines the strength of the consequence. I've also shut a couple of horse down hard - When it was a safety issue or serious misbehaviour. Just like you. I also agree that to maintain a soft mouthed horse, the consequence doesn't have to be huge - My show horse sometimes gets sticky in his stops and my consequence is a hard and fast back up - His next stop is always snappy and fluid.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

practice walking, then stopping. Use your seat first, then voice, then rein. only do walking. Walk 5 steps, then stop. Also, practice slowing and speeding up her gaits. (starting with the walk) do 5 steps extended walk, 5 steps collected, then halt. Switch up the numbers of steps, too. (4 steps, halt. then 7 steps and halt etc) until she is absolutely PERFECT at halting at the walk. then do all this at a trot. 
practice collected walk for a few steps, then extended trot then halt. then extended walk to collected trot then halt. etc etc. mix it up! practice all this, going no faster than a trot, until she stops PERFECTLY. 
Once she stops absolutely perfectly at the walk, do all this at the canter. If she doesnt stop, go back to the trot, repeat the halting exercise again, then try the canter again. It will work, you have to be patient. 

Also, try the one reined stop in times of emergency!!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow, creating a "soft mouth" through pain? What happened to working with the horse and training him and putting a proper foundation on him so that we never have issues like this?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> And THIS my friend, is how you make a hard mouth


 
No this is how you make a soft mouth. After a few hard stops that horse for me will stop without the use of the reins in the future. It will always remember the lesson and in future just picking up the reins will cause that horse to stop. A hard mouth comes from people who constantly are pulling on the mouth, riding with contact and asking, not telling the horse.
If you ask softly and when the horse doesn't respond you follow it up with harch repromand the horse will learn quickly to respond to the light cue because a harsh one will follow it is doesn't.

THIS my friend is from experience and making horses for a long long time.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Actually - While you may not agree with it, Riosdad's methods actually make for a very soft mouthed horse. You don't acheive a soft mouth through always being soft - You *can* achieve it by asking softly but shutting down hard if you don't get the response. You may not like it, but it is VERY effective at creating a soft mouthed, responsive horse.


 
You are a smart girl:lol::lol::lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ That is the ideal situation. However, there are many, many horses who have NOT had a start like that and if they don't stop unsafe behaviour, will be sent from home to home, or to slaughter. I believe, like Riosdad, that it is better for the horse to be taught to respect the stop and become a useful, safe horse and have a better chance at a good life than the alternative.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Wow, creating a "soft mouth" through pain? What happened to working with the horse and training him and putting a proper foundation on him so that we never have issues like this?


 
That didn't happen in this case probably because the rider didn't want to hurt the nice horsie by pulling hard enough to stop him. as far as the OP goes I think she needs to hire a trainer to fix the horse and teach her to ride.

As far as the debate we are engaging in about how to stop a horse, I think if you use the principles of pressure and release you can get any horse to stop. Hold the pressure until you get the wanted response then release the pressure completely.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> You are a smart girl:lol::lol::lol:


Only because she sees training from your point of veiw. 

I've retrained unstoppable runaway type horses without resorting to a heavy bit. And you contradict yourself by saying when you "ride runaways" in this thread, but then in other posts you say you don't get on other people's "problem horses"???? ... you're so full of it it comes out both ends...sorry...


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> That didn't happen in this case probably because the rider didn't want to hurt the nice horsie by pulling hard enough to stop him. as far as the OP goes I think she needs to hire a trainer to fix the horse and teach her to ride.
> 
> As far as the debate we are engaging in about how to stop a horse, I think if you use the principles of pressure and release you can get any horse to stop. Hold the pressure until you get the wanted response then release the pressure completely.



I kind of like the one that you were talking about a month or so ago when you just ran them till they started to get tired and took the up a hill.
I have used that with a few that did not understand.
Just let them go and after about 5 miles they start thinking about looking for the whoa.

Here is a horse that had very little stop when she came in and here is the hills that I worked her in.
The horse has to get their rear end under themselves to come down the hill and the whoa just gets better and better.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Personally, I have never ridden any horse in anything other than a snaffle by choice. I orefer to rely on my own strength than a harsher bit - Now that i'm older, I do have a good amount of strength thank god! :]


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I kind of like the one that you were talking about a month or so ago when you just ran them till they started to get tired and took the up a hill.
> I have used that with a few that did not understand.
> Just let them go and after about 5 miles they start thinking about looking for the whoa.
> 
> ...


Backing up a hill works really well too.


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

Lots of good information in this thread. I hope the OP will try some of the tips recommended, and get her pony under control.

Twisted wire snaffles... I just shudder when I read those three words....


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Me too! Totally unecessary IMO.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> . And you contradict yourself by saying when you "ride runaways" in this thread, but then in other posts you say you don't get on other people's "problem horses"???? ... you're so full of it it comes out both ends...sorry...


I do ride problem horses. I have never said I won't. IF someone is having a problem and they ask me to ride the horse I certainly will. 
I use to spend my sunday mornings at a rental place riding their problems to straighten them out.
I run a post on barn sour horses and how I fixed one for a girl??

If it is a horse I own and start it will not have the problems I read about on here.

You know what you can do with yourself.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mom2pride. I think where you are become comfused is when I said I will NOT BUY SOMEONES PET. They are usually spoiled bratts and I would rather deal with a half wild youngster. They are easier and quicker to bring along.
As for run aways I have broken 2 really bad cases in my 3 stop approach. The whole thing didn't take 5 minutes for the 3 stops and both horses remember their lesson. One was named Beauty and the other was Porcha.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I once took a twisted wire snaffle and used it on my arm to simulate its action, and low-and-behold it DID hurt. Can't imagine how it feels to a horse's tongue!

As for curbs, I've never had anything against them. In fact, I absolutely MUST use one on Sunny. It's a matter of SAFETY.

I just thought that if you have a horse that has a softish mouth, then keep it as soft as possible as long as possible.

I guess times have changed


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Why do you say it will only work for a short while?? If you can shut the horse down great. If you use your hands gentle but when the need arrises you shut him down harder he will learn respect.
> I don't know the rider or her strength but all too often I see little girls on big horses that they can not control. A snaffle bit has a 1 to 1 ratio while a curb can have 2 or 3 times the ratio giving the girl an added strength.
> 
> I train in a snaffle, use them for years and then switch to the curb for the rest of his life.
> ...


 Well I am not a little girl and my horse is a small horse lol


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> How can this horse be perfect when she is unstoppable and herd bound? I don't understand how people can type this stuff and not realize that not only is she not perfect but she is fundementally unsafe.
> 
> Hire a trainer to fix her and then teach you how to ride her so it doesn't happen again.


I can say that cause she is MY horse. Thankyou:twisted:


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> But it takes a skilled rider to fix them. That's why she needs to learn to ride.


 Hey ....


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## Painted Hotrod (Dec 3, 2009)

A bit isn't harsh unless you don't know how to properly handle it..


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This is a girl having the same problems as the OP is having. It is from another forum but this is the suggestions she got there.
> haflinger is too strong, how to bit her? - Chronicle Forums


What is a OP?


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

original post or poster


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> That didn't happen in this case probably because the rider didn't want to hurt the nice horsie by pulling hard enough to stop him. as far as the OP goes I think she needs to hire a trainer to fix the horse and teach her to ride.
> 
> As far as the debate we are engaging in about how to stop a horse, I think if you use the principles of pressure and release you can get any horse to stop. Hold the pressure until you get the wanted response then release the pressure completely.


 
Well I pull as hard as I can dosen't help but after a minute or two she stops so I guess it is working:lol:


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

Misfit said:


> Okay, from what I've skimmed, I agree %110 with ScoutRider.
> 
> Teach 'Whoa' on the ground first. Start by working on it on a lead rope at the walk, then trot, then on a lunge line at the WTC. She needs to learn that whoa means "all four feet stop NOW" not "stop when I feel like it".
> 
> ...


 
i'll try that first.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> Hey ....


I didn't mean to insult you but if you really knew how to ride you wouldn't have needed to post this. A tainer will be much cheaper than an emergency room visit.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> Well I pull as hard as I can dosen't help but after a minute or two she stops so I guess it is working:lol:


 
You don't have to pull really hard you just have to keep it constant untill she stops then *immediately relieve all pressure*. Put a lot of slack in your reins and let her stand for a while. Then do it over and over again untill she stops as soon as you pick up on your reins. The reason horses get hard mouthed isn't from using a harsh bit or a soft one, it's from the rider not releasing the pressure soon enough.


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## Fancy Girl Haflinger (Jan 7, 2009)

okay thanks seee if i can get a trainer, maybe a another bit and do groundwork what can it hurt.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Now look real close at the reins and how the horse is stopping.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I've always wanted to rein


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Fancy Girl Haflinger said:


> I have tried the one rein stop but it makes her go faster in a circle.



Then just hold her head to your knee until she stops. Eventually she will get tired or going in a tight circle. The second she stops release her and praise her them move on.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

QHDragon said:


> Then just hold her head to your knee until she stops. Eventually she will get tired or going in a tight circle. The second she stops release her and praise her them move on.


Some horses keep right on going even with their heads cranked over to your knee.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

They will stop at some point lol


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Mmm.. Not Cricket <:/


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> They will stop at some point lol


Not before you get dizzy and topple off :]


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Not before you get dizzy and topple off :]


 haha true.

I remember when I first got Shocks.She WOULD NOT give me her head...It was right after she had come home from the trainers and we purchased her.I have no clue why he didn't teach her but I ended up doing it.

Boy was she hard headed,of course I started out working with her in the round pen on the ground.I taught my other horse everything she knows,so I figured Shocks wouldn't be any different. WRONG, I swear it took me 25 minutes to get her to bend her head to the left side...I cant even count how many times she stepped on my feet .I was so dizzy but I knew if I gave in she would "win" and I would have wasted my time.But it only took that ONE time and she picked it right up.  Silly horse


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

A one rein stop isn't about just cranking a horses head around to your knee. They can and will keep running. You need to get them to step over with thier hindquarters and you have to do it before they get a full head of steam up. If you wait untill your horse is running hell bent for leather to ask for a stop you are way too late and it won't work.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Just To clarify my post,I was talking about flexing in general not run aways.I was just running my mouth lol


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

yeah same here.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I posted a link to another girl with a haflinger who was having problems stopping. She tried the curb bit and this is her results.
For the complete post |I added the link earlier.
This is her results


well we have had very good results with a low port, longer shanked western curb. she was so much better today, soft and responsive like the pony i remember. there was no bracing, no head tossing either. she is actively listening again for my cues, and no longer just being naughty and disrespectful for the heck of it.
i'm no expert rider, but i am a fairly profficient english rider and my pony has had a very good education. when in the arena she is a beautifully responsive and subtle dressage pony; it's on the trail that she gets willful and naughty.
thanks to those who suggested the low port curb, that was the answer for us, as she has demonstrated that she really hates a snaffle in any way, shape or form


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

Everything you ask of a horse requires one thing--control of the horses feet!! All four of them! Gain respect and control of the feet and this all goes away. Without the above don't get on.


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## LolaGirl160 (Sep 12, 2009)

I rode a horse named Maverick for a while. He lliked to take off. Everytime he tried to I would really get on his case, and be very firm with my words and my reins. If there were a bunch of people in the arena, he didnt care and he would go taking off wherever he wanted. So whenever he took off I would really get on his case, and be very firm with my words and my reins. and the minute he did take off i would drop my whip. If i was about to run into someone or something i sat back, and pop him in the mouth about three times. I wouldn't recomend doing this unless its your last resort bacause all orses can react differently to this. But if you do try this be ready for what your horse throws at you. (sry i wrote so much) HOPE THIS HELPS!


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## Mustangg (Dec 15, 2009)

Maybe you could try and tie her friend to a near by fence, but then she might want to run back, if she hard mouthed ask your farrier.?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Mustangg said:


> Maybe you could try and tie her friend to a near by fence, but then she might want to run back, if she hard mouthed ask your farrier.?


What??? Why would the farrier be able to solve the problem of not stopping. Maybe you should stay on the kid forum.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Hehe, old grump.


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