# Need a bit slightly harsher than a Tom thumb?



## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Your yanking on your horse with a Tom Thumb?? :/ Go bitless. Sounds dumb, but if you keep getting harsher and it doesn't get better, maybe your horse works better with no bit. I got up to a high port solid before figuring that this wasn't working - Stuck a lead around her halter, she rides like a charm


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

You can't get much worse than a Tom Thumb.

Sounds like a bit isn't going to solve your problem...training...


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I'd suggest training(for both of you) over a harsher bit, jmo.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Search "tom thumb" on this forum. It is NOT nice bit. It is poorly designed, causes mixed signals, and all-in-all is just not functional and isn't worth the material its made of. Horses will often fight this bit and develop behaviors out of pain or confusion.

I would suggest a billy allen bit instead.

Billy Allen Bits


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't like harsh bits. Reason is horses are animals and they are allowing us to get on their backs and well, practically control them and they are doing it willingly, not from fear. No matter how bad my horse got I would not put a harsher bit on, he has a tom thumb atm and i dont like it i'm debating whether to get just a ring one coz he works fine in both only reason we have the tomb thumb on him was his old owner felt it was better 'for me' but she screwed us over on a lot of things, not the point lol.. I just have never seen a horse work better with a harsher bit. A pony club horse had a harsh bit on, he was so numb in the mouth they changed the bit to a harsher one, he ended up bolting on someone they tried to pull him back, he couldnt even feel it and we checked his mouth and there was a little bit of blood after that (beginner rider) so then we changed him to a bitless and now he actually listens. We've also gone back into reteaching leg aids and all to help him understand and hes a great little kids pony now. So mmay i suggest trying everything else before going to a harsher bit. the word 'harsher' makes me sad.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

They make a bit harsher than a Tom Thumb?? Go back to basics and fix the holes in your training. We all have them. A harsh bit won't solve much of anything.


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

On the trail I ride my mare with a gag bit, as she has run away with me twice, and no matter how hard I tried, I could NOT effect a one rein stop (couldn't even pop her nose out with my feet braced in the stirrups and both hands on one rein, and I'm not a wimp) in a Kimberwicke. With the gag bit, I can ride her with one finger and really not have to use the bit. 

That said, I have put away all of my Tom Thumb's after reading about them on this forum. I'm working with my mare now in a ring snaffle with a french link. We're not ready to hit the trail in it, but we're getting there! Every one of our horses that was in a Tom Thumb has responded better to a different bit. 

Kathy


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If you are pulling and yanking on the reins to get the horse to do anything, then you are causing every problem the horse has. Going to a harsher bit will only make the problem worse.

I strongly suggest finding a good trainer to work with you and your horse; they can teach you how to be a more effective rider and can teach your horse how to respond properly.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> They make a bit harsher than a Tom Thumb??


Yep.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/will-your-horse-respond-your-bit-62456/


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

I have to echo everyone one else so far. A harsher bit is not for fixing a problem. It will actually amplify the problem and cement it even further. It sounds like your horse is hard mouthed and that comes from hard hands caused by inadequate training for both the horse and the rider. 

Maybe you could give some information on what is going on and we might be able to offer some suggestions that would help you get better results.
Just hate to see you go to a stronger bit as it will very likely turn a difficult horse right into an impossible and dangerous horse.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

SorrelHorse - That second bit makes my heart cry :'( People put that in their babies' mouths? I outta shoot those s.o.bs... the first bit isn't any better...


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## Luckyrider503 (Mar 9, 2012)

*The right bit?*



MyBoyPuck said:


> They make a bit harsher than a Tom Thumb?? Go back to basics and fix the holes in your training. We all have them. A harsh bit won't solve much of anything.


There are plenty harsher bits than a Tom thumb. I am not looking for something that is going to make my horse uncomfortable, as the Tom thumb is clearly doing that already. The only reason I am using it on him is because that's what the woman said he was trained with. I am notduring harsh with him, I was simply stating that I don't want to resort in pulling in his mouth, not that I am already. Also, I am trying to just find a bit that will work best with him without trying a million different ones. I just need ideas in which direction to turn when I go to purchase a new one. And btw, I have rode him with a hackamore and it is not working the best either. he is not responding very well to turning/stopping and it has been several different occasions with the hackamore. And as I said before, I am using leg cues and positioning the reins correctly. Either way, I am looking for positive advice, thank you!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The tom thumb bit itself will cause a lot of problems just due to a flawed design.

I apologize for jumping in the middle of you for your original post, but many of us tend to get on the fight quickly when posters here ask questions that we read as "what bit will hurt my horse enough that he'll listen to me".

There are a lot of bits that are much better options than a tom thumb. Unfortunately, if he was trained in a TT, then the original training that he got was likely not top quality so you're going to have a ton of re-training work to do after you get the bit issue sorted out.

Does this horse neck rein well? If not, then I strongly suggest going back to a regular type snaffle, perhaps one with a french link type mouth or perhaps a billy allen/myler type mouth.

French Link type
Myler type

If he does neck rein well, then perhaps a mild ported curb bit would be more comfortable for him.
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Reiner WIde Port Swivel Shank Bit
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit


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## Luckyrider503 (Mar 9, 2012)

thank you all for the useful information, i have taken much of it into consideration. i guess i should have posted the title as "ways to get my horse to respond better"...because that is my whole goal. i am very gentle with my gelding, and i very strongly believe in the horse/human bond and i wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize the bond we already share. as i said before, the only reason i had used the tom thumb is because that's what he was previously trained on, and that's what i was told he used. i have been talking with a few people in my area and they had suggested a Mylar or french link (thank you for letting me know what the bits are called, as i wasn't sure, i had only seen pictures of them). i think that would be the best way to go and just to continue working with him with gentle hands...thanks again, i will update our progress


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> Yep.



This kind of stuff makes me want to scream. Why would you do this to an animal you supposedly care about?????


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

Have you tried just a siimple snaffle with him? one of those ring ones? Whats he like when you do half halts with him, and halts?


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I love Smrobs post. A lot of good bits posted.

I have a feeling with this situation, a different shank (or dee ring, or loose ring, or full cheek!) shape, and the right mouthpiece, he'll be a lot softer.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some of the stuff folks have used over the ages is frightening:

India, around 1900:










Greek, around the time of Xenophon:










From my very limited experience, it seems it is sometimes best to assume your horse has no training, and then start over - particularly if he was trained with a Tom Thumb. If you go with a snaffle, you can practice bit cues with him from the ground before working him from the back. Work on his responsiveness when just standing next to him, and train him to respond to gentle pressure with a snaffle. I've seen it done or done it with 3 of our horses, and it makes it easy to teach him without worrying about 'will he stop/turn'.

Our mustang pony was used as a lesson horse, and he's kind of hard-mouthed. We just ride him with a snaffle, and pull light, not so light, then firm. If he hasn't responded by firm, we just hold it at that level until he responds, then immediately release. He usually starts up again, and then we go thru the same steps again. He gets to decide if he wants to respond to light pressure, not so light, or firm. After 4 months, he now mostly responds at light. If he gets wound up, then we might need to escalate to firm and hold it there - but he's probably at about 90% on light now (versus 10% 4 months ago).

It isn't the bit that trains, but consistent hands. You soften a horse by ALWAYS giving him the same sequence, and letting him decide when he will respond. It may take 300 tries, but eventually it clicks that he can respond to lighter cues. It is just like leg cues - if you always start with light pressure, then firm, then bump, then firm bump, then light heel, etc, then eventually the horse figures out he can respond BEFORE you get to a crop or kicking. From my limited experience, it seems they can do the same with a bit.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

If the bitless did no good, then there are definatly holes in the training. I don't mean to sound mean, or nasty, but whoever trained your horse had no clue what they were doing, especially if they started him in a TT. 

I would go to groundwork immediatly - put a french link in his mouth, take the reins off of your bridle, saddle him up, and put him through the paces. Walk, Trot, Canter. Make him 100% responsive. I may put a video up here later on how I like to make greenies responsive through lunging. When you are done lunging, put your reins on, get on, and just cool him out. This will a) cool him out after what should be a pretty athletic training session b) make him see riding as more enjoyable. It never hurts. 

When he is completely and totally responsive, (as in when changing directions, all you have to do is point your finger) get on. Do what bsms said - Lots of walking, and practicing halting. Start with light pressure and "woah." If you don't get it, pull a little harder, and "woah," with a little more volume. If you still don't get it, give a sharp pull and "Woah!" If your horse is still walking along, pull and don't let go, saying "Woah!" just once. When he does stop, pet him, make him stand a few seconds, and walk. You need to go back to basics.

Hope we can help you and your gelding to be a happier team


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

What kind of mouth are we talking about here? Flat tongue, or big fat sausage tongue? Low palette or mouth with lots of room in it? Any existing bar damage? Once you determine the shape of your horse's mouth, you'll be able to narrow down your bit choices more.


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## TraceyAnn (Mar 9, 2012)

When I bought my TWH a couple of weeks ago, I also bought the saddle he had on her and several other pieces of tack (lumped together).. 

The bit below is not the one that I rode her in before buying her but it is the one he told me she was used to riding in.. I think it looks harsh!! Yesterday I put it on the bridle and put it in her mouth. I will tell you this... 

She was irritable from the moment I put it in. I did not, I repeat DID NOT ride her with it in her mouth. I walked her around and she was just not acting the same as she has since I got her home.. I have not seen this behaviour before putting the bit in her mouth. 

I removed the bit, and the saddle, did a little ground work, groomed her and put her back out to pasture. 

I think the previous owner had no problem using the harsher bit, but he acted as if it were her favorite one.. I tend to disagree. I will continue use a snaffle or hackamore. 

What kind of bit is this anyway and what is it's purpose? Did I do the right thing by not riding her and just removing it? I dont want her to feel like she WON, but I dont want her to be in pain or unneccesary discomfort either as I feel that might cause an accident.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Is that a correction bit of some sort?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, that is a correction bit and can be very harsh. That is a kind of bit that I don't suggest to anyone because if people know how to use it properly and know _why_ they are using it, then they are already going to know if it would help their horse or not.


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## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

Tom Thumb is the harshest bit there is. And you don't need anything that is harsher, trust me. What are you thinking? Your HANDS are what makes the bit harsh or not, and if you already have harsh hands, go bitless. You'll be doing your horse a favor, and he'll thank you for it because you won't be causing him pain. Tom Thumb bits are cruel, and I hate to say it, but you shouldn't be allowed to ride a horse if you are using one. Just plain mean.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't think you need to go to a bitless (these can be harsh as well, btw), but a simple snaffle would work fine too.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't think your answer is going to be a 'harsher' bit, you need a friendlier one!! You won't get the desired results with your horse and pain and getting mixed signals. I agree with the going back to a snaffle butttt I know we are all human and people go on the curb power trip. If you do keep a curb in his mouth, please change it!! 

I ride my mare in this, she loves it. 
Argentine Colt Three Piece dog bone Snaffle:Amazon:Sports & Outdoors 

And one of the other barrel mares at my place rides in this
Reinsman Sharon Camarillo SS Tender Touch Bit 5in - Horse.com
And she does barrels in this (similar to the one I ride in)
AT Silver Argentine Dog Bone Western Bit5in - Horse.com 

They all ride very well in these. Obviously it depends on the hands its in but when used properly these are pretty gentle but get the point across!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ripplewind said:


> Tom Thumb is the harshest bit there is. And you don't need anything that is harsher, trust me. What are you thinking? Your HANDS are what makes the bit harsh or not, and if you already have harsh hands, go bitless. You'll be doing your horse a favor, and he'll thank you for it because you won't be causing him pain. Tom Thumb bits are cruel, and I hate to say it, but you shouldn't be allowed to ride a horse if you are using one. Just plain mean.


A little harsh, huh? It doesn't sound like the OP knows much about bits. We have all been there at some point. Sounds like she is open to suggestion, which is good. I would not consider the OP "mean" at all, in fact, probably not as "mean" as you have been to her.

I wonder if many of you who recommend "bit less" as the cure all end all have ever tried one? Some horses do NOT like them and are pretty uncomfortable in one. I have one who would not even take a STEP, he was so petrified of it. I took it right off and went back to a snaffle, which, by the way, is none too kind if someone is yanking on it.

THe "fix", as has been said-is in training the horse and human. THe horse to respond, and the human to be gentle with the mouth. I spent many hours in a round pen getting my guy to move on leg/seat pressure alone so I could stay out of his mouth. It takes time, patience and consistency.


JMHO, but I doubt that any of us are perfect and know it all. We ALL make mistakes, and it is not necessary to jump all over it this late in the game. THe OP has been corrected already. Thanks RIpplewind.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Um, I think some of the newest posters haven't read the entire thread :?. The OP was not looking for a "harsher" bit than a TT, even though that's what she wrote. She was just looking for something that would be more effective at communicating with the horse.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> Yep.


Huh. I've heard people talk about bits with a bicycle chain for a mouthpiece but I thought they were just exaggerating.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Just take a step back, try a simple snaffle or french link with no leverage and go back to doing lots of circles and flexing, getting him sensitive to a bit. I ride all mine in a simple snaffle or rope halter. Even retrained a gelding that had a super hard mouth(would run through a severe curb) to use a snaffle


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

I agree about taking a step back, a huge one. Learn to communicate with your horse without all the harsh equipment. The horse doesn't need it and you shouldn't need it either. You need to get him listening to use with the lightest touch, not the harshest, hardest, forceful touch that forces him to do what you want to achieve. Soft hands make soft horses and vice versa.


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