# Impulsion and Extension without false aids



## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

When i first bought my paint he was hot, unrefined, and out of shape. We have worked a TON with just the basic stuff. Walk. Trot. Canter. Circles. Stop. Easy... and so on. 
So now that he's been in training, and is so much more fit, he really is a joy to ride both on the flat and over fences. 

However, here's my problem:
He's kinda' got my number when i try to get him to move off my leg. I ask him to collect and extend his trot a little bit, but he tends to just poke his nose out and continue to plod along unchanged. i will pony kick him with my legs and i will get a momentary reaction, but he seems pretty unimpressed by actual "kicking". 
His canter is really nice and adjustable. I can get him to collect and keep a nice hunter canter, or i can get him to give me a little more and hand gallop along the long side of the arena, and come back quiet on the short side.
Truth is, i tired using a crop once with this whole trotting issue. I didn't even touch him with it. NOT ONCE! but he was so worried, and so upset by the fact that i was even carrying it, that he was all strung out and a worried mess the whole time we hacked! So no more of that. 

What is something i can try to get him to move off my leg more without the aid of spurs, crops, or dressage whips (omg he would have a melt down!). I would effectively like to whisper my aids... not scream them at him. 
Just not entirely sure how to do that!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A quick flick of a dressage whip on his hindquarters is a lot quieter and more effective aid than a 'pony kick' unless you're looking to just irritate him and make him even duller to your driving aids.
Don't know why dressage whips and spurs are so taboo among some in the horse world, a light flick or a tap of the spur to get a reaction if you don't get a reaction from a light touch of the leg is much more efficient training than kicking and kicking and kicking until horse has bruised ribs and rider's legs are dropping off, only to make a horse even more dead to the leg.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I would have said to use a dressage whip! But since that is not ok, here's athought:

When you ask him to move out, even if it's from a halt to a walk, expect a prompt reaction and get it. So, NEVER allow him to loll into a walk or a trot.

Ask with a light flutter of your ankle, then a strong Plump, plump , then if he doesnt' go, really crack him with your lower leg and take your own hand and smack your own thigh to make a good loud noise. 

I sometime use only one leg to ask for the horse to walk off from a walk. I think it's becuase I used to "squeeze" for go andmy trainer said it was making my horse suck back.

But slapping your own thigh can work wonders in waking up the horse.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

i am definitely NOT against using spurs, crops, and dressage whips. It simply is a matter of him becoming almost _unsafe _when i use anything like that. 
i flipped the ends of the reins over his withers once because he was being a snot about his changes, and he proceeded to bolt like a mad man around the arena like i had beat him with a hot poker! 

I will give the thigh slap a try. My barn mates will likely think i've gone and lost my marbles. But if it works, i'm comfortable with being the creep that trots around slapping herself! haha!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

If he's reacting so strongly to those aids, I'd be doing a lot of work on the ground with him before under saddle. Asking him to step forward from a tap of the whip and move sideways from it will do wonders for him under saddle.
Rather than avoiding a problem, we need to address the problem and solve it. The horse will be much better for it.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

i do work with him a lot on the ground... 
what kind of exercises can i do with him involving the whip.. should i use a dressage whip? more like a pressure and release type of exercise? 
when we lunge, i use a lunge whip... but i don't normally have to actually do anything with it. he will trot out, canter, and then come back down to a nice active walk. Mostly just by voice or clucking/kissing.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I would put him in a bridle, and work him in hand with a dressage whip. If he is THAT terrified of it, start with just rubbing the handle over his shoulders and neck and gradually get him comfortable with the feel of the whip, so that he will start to cease his association between a whip and fear. 
When he is comfortable with having the whip in contact with him, stand by his shoulder, facing his shoulder and ask him to walk forward, with a small amount of pressure on the bridle and a gentle tap of the whip on his hindquarters. You want to be able to get to the point where he will walk on as soon as you point the whip to his quarters. 

Whip training is really important for me as a dressage rider, no matter how nervous a horse is with the whip under saddle, I'll work through it, because it is such a fantastic training aid. In the end, I am able to just lift my whip hand slightly without giving the tap, and the horse will give me a hind leg reaction. That is the goal!! It also helps in championship competitions when often you are not permitted to carry a whip - I can still lift my whip hand slightly and get a reaction to the hind leg from the anticipation of a tap on the quarters.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Yup, whips are VITAL when you're training a horse that's dead to the aids.

My coach and I are working on getting Monty more forward and responsive and I am NOT ALLOWED to stay 'nice'. If Monty doesn't move instantly on nice, then I get BIG and say GO FORWARD NOW. It doesn't matter how fast he goes, in fact faster is better.

I think in "phases" when I'm training. Phase one to four, in order, are, ask, tell, demand, promise. I have never had to go beyond phase three with Monty but I do often skip phase two when I'm working with him because he KNOWS what I'm asking for.

All that being said I don't ride with spurs or a whip, because I don't need them. I'll flick my saddle with the reins for phase three, and Monty's shoulders at phase four. It's gotten to the point where even the threat of getting flicked gets him really moving. The trick is knowing how much ask you need with YOUR horse to get the speed YOU want. Monty will go from a fast reinback into a fast gallop, or just to a walk, and it all depends on the intensity of my aids.

If he's ignoring you, then you need to get SERIOUS with him. If he's scared of that then desensitise him. If you don't know how to do that then get someone to help you.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I know exactly what you mean! Duffy only had the basics when I got her in Jun and as well as putting muscle on, we've had to work. However, if I pick up a whip, she bucks. I refuse to put it down, but it doesn't make for a comfortable ride. Even training to be a dressage rider, I don't feel I need to whip with her as she responds well enough to my legs.

My advice would be to use some training spurs, or baby spurs. And have a three step rule. He'll learn quick enough. If my 19yo can learn this, any horse can!
1) Ask with your normal leg aids. If this is ignored, proceed to step two.
2) Tell with your spurs. Make him realise its there. Generally you'll get a reaction. If ignored, step three.
3) Pony club kick. He will soon realise that step 1 and go is better than having to go to step three.

My girl is 18.1hh, and I'm only 5ft7 and its really helped us.
Also, for sharper transitions, ask someone to stand in the school who knows you and the horse. When they see him relax, they give you a command (halt, walk, trot, canter) etc so you don't think about it just before you do it. I used to loll in to it, and when I watched it back it was lazy! Doing this will also help him listen to your seat more.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree that he has no respect for your leg. The dressage whip is a wonderful tool that he is making you forgo. I would spend time on the ground rubbing the horse with the whip to show him that this is not a weapon. Keep rubbing with it until he relaxes a bit. Then, hold it in your hand mounted and do the same thing. Rub him everywhere. Simply hold it for a while, not using it. Then slightly tap him all over, little more than a touch. Remember to praise him EVERY time he accepts the touch without reaction. Just keep doing this until he understands you will never use the whip as a weapon.

Once he accepts you holding the whip, the training for you leg begins. You should never have to "kick" the horse the way you say you need to. One small squeeze with your leg should get a reaction to energize. If the horse ignores that, you squeeze harder. If he ignores that, give a light tap...then a little harder tap. Wherever he finally reacts, I give immediate praise to show him what I am looking for. He needs to know that if he ignores you, there will be something else coming.

A dressage whip is an invaluable extension of the leg for a horse who is ignoring you.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> Once he accepts you holding the whip, the training for you leg begins. You should never have to "kick" the horse the way you say you need to. One small squeeze with your leg should get a reaction to energize. If the horse ignores that, you squeeze harder. If he ignores that, give a light tap...then a little harder tap. Wherever he finally reacts, I give immediate praise to show him what I am looking for. He needs to know that if he ignores you, there will be something else coming.
> 
> A dressage whip is an invaluable extension of the leg for a horse who is ignoring you.


The top paragraph is a better explanation of what I was trying to say! If he has no respect for your legs, dressage will be very difficult. I don't compete out here as I live in Germany and you have to do something called a reitabzeichen and you have to be able to jump 100-110cm, and that petrifies me. However, I train at a high level, legs are the most important thing.

Also, if he's finding the impulsion hard, have you tried lunging him with a lunge whip. Be gentle and use your voice, there is very rarely and need to crack a lunge whip. It may help his impulsion and you'llbe able to see if he's working correctly from his hind  After he's worked well in that, it would be a super time to start desensitising if you decide to use a schooling whip.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

so the consensus here seems to be the dressage whip. is there any reason that most of you prefer a dressage whip over spurs or a crop? i only used the dressage whip with my last horse... but when i bought him, that's what the previous owner told me to use. so i still don't have much clarity on why you would use one over the others.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

The dressage whip is longer and lighter than a crop. You can use it with very little hand movements. With a crop you have to pull your hand back to touch the hindquarters.

I don't use spurs because I don't feel I'm experienced enough. Plus, I've always been taught that they shouldn't really be used to make a horse go faster, just to refine the aids.

I'll second on the dressage whips. My mare isn't fond of crops or whips or anything like that, but I don't even use the whip on her, I will press it against her side, or just tap her. It's very effective and won't hurt a bit.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

LOVE THIS SITE!! Lots of horsepeople with really good advice, and seldom judgemental. I LIKE the ideas suggested above. Might I add that your horse has some baggage, and it will take him LONGER to get rid of it than it would a horse trained correctly from the start, which was before you bought him.
I suggest that you teach him loose lunging, always turning towards you in the center when changing reins. CARRY A LUNGE WHIP!!! Also, the first time you do it, have an escape plan ready. You never know what ALL the baggage is until you cue for it. (He probably will be ok. I guess that being kicked in the head by one horse and thrown by another keep ME on the defensive. Just an FYI.)=b
After that, teach him to lunge on a line. You are looking (intially) for any sign of obedience, then you stop and rewad him to develop confidence and to set you up as the lead broodmare (or, if you're a man, you are the lead stallion) in the relationship.
JUST LIKE when you were in school, every session you will teach your horse more. What is initially rewarded in the first ground schooling *will be expected after a week of same. * Then, you ask for more. I am teaching my two 5 yo geldings changes within gait on the loose lunge and on the lunge line, for example, I get a faster and a slower trot out of them, on command.
I like to use the word, "no" when my horse gets it wrong, then the praise is the "yes." "No" doesn't frighten a horse, and sometimes people still hit them when they don't do things right.
Although I pick and choose from the current tv trainers I agree with them that you horse needs to be desensitized to your tools. It's always a good idea to approach your horse with the whip and rub him with it, so he KNOWS it won't eat him.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Oxer said:


> so the consensus here seems to be the dressage whip. is there any reason that most of you prefer a dressage whip over spurs or a crop? i only used the dressage whip with my last horse... but when i bought him, that's what the previous owner told me to use. so i still don't have much clarity on why you would use one over the others.


Actually, to get a horse on the aids, I prefer a short crop, because I get a better response when tapping--or slapping!-- the base of the neck. I generally don't use force with a dressage whip-- it's used to touch areas I can't otherwise reach. (I have short legs.) Of course, it IS occasionally used more sharply if I need it. (I use the 2-second rule: a light leg aid, count two seconds, then both legs and the whip hard and fast, accepting whatever happens-- then back to the walk or whatever, and lo and behold, the soft leg "works" again.)

Do get him used to your carrying a crop--and a bag--and a raincoat-- in fact, anything you need to tote around some day. It took a long time with a previous hot little horse I had, but it was worth it to get her used to "things" behind her head.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Beling said:


> Do *get him used to* your carrying a crop--and a bag--and a raincoat-- in fact, *anything you need to tote around some day.* It took a long time with a previous hot little horse I had, but it was worth it to get her used to "things" behind her head.


Agreed.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't think it's the whip since he also reacted to the reins. Have you noticed if it is just one side or the other that he reacts to things behind him?


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

mls said:


> I don't think it's the whip since he also reacted to the reins. Have you noticed if it is just one side or the other that he reacts to things behind him?


the reins i had swatted him over both sides of his withers. i also carried the crop once and he was sensitive to it being in either hand, on either side. 
When he came to me he was painfully head shy. Which we have worked through. He's only been with me for about 3 months so i am finding things out about him as i go. The crop thing was unexpected and i should have taken a moment to find out how he would react to it before i mounted with it in my hands! He's smart and desensitizes pretty well... so it's something we're going to need to take time to work on.

So much good information here. Thanks a ton everybody!


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Yesterday I rode with a crop for the first time. I kept thinking about it and before I did, I hit it against my leg to see how it felt. It really does not hurt at all. I also wore spurs first starting but ditched them a long time ago. I think we can underestimate the strength of our legs. 

Hardest thing for me is getting coordinated enough to carry it. Also, I assume you carry the crop on the inside of the circle?


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## MicKey73 (Dec 26, 2010)

Oxer said:


> so the consensus here seems to be the dressage whip. is there any reason that most of you prefer a dressage whip over spurs or a crop? i only used the dressage whip with my last horse... but when i bought him, that's what the previous owner told me to use. so i still don't have much clarity on why you would use one over the others.


With a dressage whip, you can reach anywhere you need your horse to move. The difference between a tap on the rump and a tap on the shoulder is that the horse will be reminded to move forward from his hind end, not just string himself out and go faster. You can reach his shoulder, barrel, and rump and get him moving off exactly how he needs to. It allows for refinement without changing reins or contact that a crop and/or spurs can't offer.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I was also taught a whip is for "Forward!" while spurs are more for refinement.
I know horses can dull out to spurs faster than to a whip, but it all depends on how these tools are used. It's jsut that so many riders apply leg with nearly every stride. Nothing could dull a horse out faster then if you did this with spurs on.

I think several folks keyed into the point that if your horse freaks out with a whip/crop in hand, then this is something that needs to be looked at as a place for desensitizing. He might be reactive to a lot of things, so maybe you should look at that and see if can tolerate things above and around him and such. I agree that work on the ground with a dressage whip in hand may help here.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

BaileyJo said:


> Also, I assume you carry the crop on the inside of the circle?


yes. crop and/or dressage whip i always carry on the inside. 

I went out to ride today. our weather is changing from pretty cool to pretty hot, so he was feeling quite spry today. We hacked around for a while and he was a joy. 
I decided to take advantage of his good mood and i put him in the round pen. I brought the dressage whip out with me and he was fine with it until i touched him. haha! 
he snorted at me and was moving away from it, but he didn't get explosive. We got to the point to where i could run it over her shoulder, belly, and the top of his rump without him moving away. I think it's something i will do with him every day for the next couple weeks before i actually try carrying it in the saddle.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

eventually you will want to be able to put the dressage whip on him even when he is walking and not have him wig out. it's important to have horses accept scary things while standing AND moving. There are horses that seem ok with a rope on them or a whip or a jacket bumping on them while they are standing, but once they start to move, they lose it. I would work with him on a leadline and being real friendly just walke next to him and eventually get him to tolerate the whip moving around him while he continues to walk around you.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Oxer said:


> yes. crop and/or dressage whip i always carry on the inside.


That was a question for myself. Not meaning to ask you directly in such a a tone. Is that where we carry it? I didn't know. 

Sorry!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

BaileyJo said:


> That was a question for myself. Not meaning to ask you directly in such a a tone. Is that where we carry it? I didn't know.
> 
> Sorry!


As to why - the most obvious reason is carrying on the rail could interfere with movement - smacking rails or posts. 

However my dressage instructor told me it was so the judge could see that you were using it correctly.

If I need to carry a whip - it's a dressage whip. And always contact behind the riders leg. A crop, quirt and bat are short. You have to shift your body to use. The horse gets the idea and will pop their body out of position to avoid contact.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mls said:


> As to why - the most obvious reason is carrying on the rail could interfere with movement - smacking rails or posts.
> 
> However my dressage instructor told me it was so the judge could see that you were using it correctly.
> 
> If I need to carry a whip - it's a dressage whip. And always contact behind the riders leg. A crop, quirt and bat are short. You have to shift your body to use. The horse gets the idea and will pop their body out of position to avoid contact.


 
See over here above the first two levels you're not to compete with a whip! Spurs, no problemos, but no whips. Where as I can appreciate schooling with a whip on the odd occassion if a horse needs correcting, I really don't enjoy having to carry one all the time, and find that if you can, training your horse with your seat and legs is better for impulsion.

Despite wearing spurs, they're very rarely needed, only if she needs a wee reminder that yes, thats my outside leg or for her to pick her trunk up so she can move better once warmed up.

Just a personal opinion though, everyone has to try whats right for them and their situation


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I didnt read this whole thing, only the first few threads. But what i would do. 

Put both reins in one hand, reach back and pop him in the butt with your hand. Grab the cantle once you do so if you are worried about a reaction. This will keep your but in place incase of something happening. If he takes off dont pull back and stop him, let him move forward. After all that is what you want right? He is only doing what he is told, so if he breaks into a canter let him canter a few strides, break down and ask for the extension again. Sounds like to me he is rather feel-y. So riding with a crop or something along those lines might not be needed. He just needs a little wake up call. Make sure when you pop him in the butt you make a sound such as a cluck or say "trot". Do this a few times so he associates the sound with the pop, and he will move. This eliminates the hassle of carrying a crop or a whip. Along with him "freaking out" as much. I would also suggest spurs, they will help reinforce forward motion. Good luck.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I usually carry my whip in my right hand. When in a dressage ring, there usually is no high rail for the whip to hit. The only real disdvantage is when doing a circle and the whip is on the outside. I have to flip the whip a bit harder to go across my thigh and still hit the haunch (since the bend puts the haunch a bit further away. If a horse has a really bad left side, then I will carry in just the left hand.

I never change the whip to the other hand in a test....never. The inconsistency in contact that it would cause is not an option, IMO.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> I never change the whip to the other hand in a test....never. The inconsistency in contact that it would cause is not an option, IMO.


This is good to know. I always change to the inside because i always thought it was some kind of unspoken rule. 

Also i have one more question:
If just carrying the whip gives me the reaction i want from him without ever having to touch him with it, is this a good thing or is this just him being fearful still? does anyone have horses that are like that, where you can just carry it and the horse knows you mean business without tapping them with it??


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Oxer said:


> Also i have one more question:
> If just carrying the whip gives me the reaction i want from him without ever having to touch him with it, is this a good thing or is this just him being fearful still? does anyone have horses that are like that, where you can just carry it and the horse knows you mean business without tapping them with it??


Yes, carry it! It's a win-win situation: either you will get the energy you want without effort; or your horse will get so used to the whip he'll ignore it-- which is almost what you wanted to begin with! Don't worry about what the horse thinks you think; they don't think the same way.

I carried a whip for a year before my horse finally got used to it. When I actually had to use it, it was easy. It wasn't till afterwards that it occurred to me to carry other things (duh!) and I had to deal with difficulties all over again, but finally I was able to take a paper bag of cookies to my friend about a mile away-- that was a real accomplishment.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> I usually carry my whip in my right hand. When in a dressage ring, there usually is no high rail for the whip to hit. The only real disdvantage is when doing a circle and the whip is on the outside. I have to flip the whip a bit harder to go across my thigh and still hit the haunch (since the bend puts the haunch a bit further away. If a horse has a really bad left side, then I will carry in just the left hand.
> 
> I never change the whip to the other hand in a test....never. The inconsistency in contact that it would cause is not an option, IMO.


Actually the whip can be carried in either hand.

There will be times when you will be wanting to correct the weaker side of the horse and if you are carrying ONLY ONE whip then it is more advantages to carry it on the side you need it the most.

I ALWAYS ( outside of competition) carry TWO whips. This reduces the rein inconsistency contact and I can correct either side right away.

As far as the dressage judge seeing the whip mls posted that is not correct as half the time one side of the horse will be seen by the judge and half the time they will not. So the whip is carried in the hand the rider feels it will be the most useful and comfortable for the rider/horse.

The only rule here is that you must salute with the NON whip hand.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Spyder, in my post I did say I might carry in the other hand, if the horse had a weak side. I just seldom need to. I can only think of several occasions I carried dual whips. I like having a free hand for occasional pats, or whatever.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Spyder, in my post I did say I might carry in the other hand, if the horse had a weak side. I just seldom need to. I can only think of several occasions I carried dual whips. I like having a free hand for occasional pats, or whatever.



I never pat my horse while working with him.

In competition you can't do this so I learned a way to reward him without taking my hand off the reins and he knew he was being praised.

That left me free to use my hands for reins and whips only.

Just something I learned over the years.

Just a note..you will very very very rarely find ANY top trainer pat the horse while working with them...possibly they may after but never during the work session. I asked my coach why he had that same response and he said the horse is to focus on you and what you do and it is a distraction. This is something I understand but only half agree with.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Steffan Peters is always saying to praise the horse while working well. I definitely subscribe to the praise method, though mostly verbal until I am free to pat between movement exercises.


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