# Training to pick up feet on a spooky/kicky horse?



## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Hello, I've been lurking on the forum for a while and finally decided that with my new project horse that I needed some help. My friend was giving a 5 year old Morgan/QH stallion that the people that owned him thought it was cute when he did such things as rearing, biting, striking, etc. That is until he hit 1200lbs and was no longer cute. So for the last 3-4 years he has been sitting in a pasture bored out of his mind. I was deployed this summer when my friend got him and she quickly had him gelded and taught him the very basics on ground manners. After I got back, I got him and between her and me, he is learning not to do all the "cute" things but 1) he is still very spooky of people touching him 2) he has a nervous habit of striking the ground with his back hooves 3)he still is pulling back but now he thinks about it and usually comes back to the hitch.

After about a week of work I got his front feet to be able to hold up and work on but if you get close to his butt/back feet he still wants to haunch up and either plant his feet or starts his nervous kicking. He doesn't read like he's doing it to be mean or a jerk. His back feet are not that bad of shape but I'm hoping that I can get them trimmed before winter hits when it may not be possible for the farrier to get up there for a while. I've never worked with a horse that has never has his feet done that is also kick happy. I do have the goal of trying to do it without getting another hoof shaped scar on my thigh. Any suggestions?


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## Breella (May 26, 2012)

Grooming. Brush him, run your hands around his back. Work your way to his legs. You need to desensitize him to having his body touched. Every day work your way a little lower. Don't forget to reward him for standing! It's working with my horse. I can get his fronts up now to clean them (for about 30 seconds)-- and I can even get him to partially lift his backs though I haven't tried holding them yet.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

Sounds like you've done a wonderful job so far.

As for the back legs, get a towel or, for more safety, a soft rope (and gloves to prevent some serious rope burn), and some brute strength. You want to loop it around his leg, just below the fetlock, and stand by his shoulder. Pulling on the rope/towel will (hopefully!) Make him lift his hoof off the ground, enough that it looks like he is resting the leg just above the ground. The brute force comes in when he starts kicking. If he manages to pull the towel/rope through your hands, he wins. Once he stops kicking, drop the rope and let him have his leg back. It's a lot like the pressure system - once he behaves, he gets relief. Eventually you can bring the leg up higher or hold it up longer and, with any luck, you can eventually do it with your hands.

I've only use this method on 3 Y/O TB mare who had a habit of kicking her hind feet out of my hand, but it should work the same.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Forget picking his back feet up until you address the greater problem -- the spookines, the goosiness, the kicking and stomping of his feet, the setting back, the threatening of a handler that demonstrates a lack of basic ground training. He is not ready to pick his feet up.

I used to get in older unbroke and spoiled horses all of the time. I tried many different approaches and the one the worked well for all of them was 'sacking out'. I do not sack a horse out with a sack but with a 25 foot long soft cotton rope. I start out with 25 feet of 1 inch, 3 strand rope. I untwist 20 feet of it and re-braid it in a soft 3 strand braid. 

I tie the un-braided part around a horse's neck and use the soft part to get a horse used to having it flipped, flopped and flung all over it. I flip it up over a horse's back, around its hind feet and legs, under its belly, between its hind legs, everywhere. There is not a spot you cannot reach with this long soft rope. I have had horses kick at it for an hour or longer but I outlasted every one of them. I have had mean horses that have hurt people and when I was through, they were just standing there resting a hind foot. 

Once a horse quits trying to fight the rope, you can run it inside of and under the back pastern and can easily pull a hind foot forward. You do not need to tie the foot up (referred to as a 'Scotch hobble' or 'Scotching' a horse). You just bring it forward and rub it while it is off of the ground. If the horse has given up fighting the rope, it is really easy to pick up the foot with it, remove it from the rope and handle it. I usually do this for three or four sessions before I start 'walking the foot back' to set it on my knee. 

The biggest thing to remember is that this horse got this way because people tried to do something (like touch his back legs), he reacted, the person backed away to stay safe and the horse learned that he could make people 'give ground' to him. That is all it takes to spoil a horse. You do not have to step back from a horse very many times and he decides to make you back up or move away by threatening you. He will decide to accept less and less and will get more reactive as time goes. It works for them every time.

Teach him to accept the long soft cotton rope and all of the other problems will just go away. You do not have to go after one aggressively, just flip and flop the rope around on one spot until he quits reacting. The instant he accepts that spot, you stop and 'retreat'. Then, go after another spot. Stop as soon as he quits fighting that spot. When he quits fighting the rope, use it to 'pull his hip over'. Teach him that HE needs to give ground to you when you ask him to. The whole time, you are in a safe place where you cannot lose and you never have to give ground to him.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Thank you for your service time



> Forget picking his back feet up until you address the greater problem -- the spookines, the goosiness, the kicking and stomping of his feet, the setting back, the threatening of a handler that demonstrates a lack of basic ground training. He is not ready to pick his feet up


.

^^^This, unless his hooves are so bad he absolutely has to be trimmed; which that doesn't seem to be the case right now.

Work with him every day, if you can. Also, if it's possible I would get him out several times in a day but for short lessons. Whether it's you by yourself, your friend, or both of you, work him several times a day.

As soon as he complies with a request, stop the lessons, do something fun with him that you know he likes, then put him back to pasture or whereever he's kept through the day.

When it's time to mess with his back hooves, this may be up for debate but, for my part, I wouldn't tie him. I would put him someplace safe, like a round pen, big alley way, or anywhere that is sort of confining in case he would get away from you.

I have custom lead ropes that are around 15' long - that gives me plenty of rope to hang the horse or myself (JK:lol:. Really, it gives me enough rope to hold onto it while picking up a back hoof with the other hand, if there's nobody to help.

If the horse wants to dance, I'd let them dance but they did it on three legs; I'm only 5'2" but I wasn't letting go of that hoof until they stopped their Two-Steppin' around. The horse did have some manners by this time and I was reasonably sure it wasn't going to land on top of me.

You sound to be fairly experienced with horses or I wouldn't eeeeeeven mention that method --- it's not something an inexperienced horse owner wants to try as there's a lot of human instinct involved in knowing when to let go or keep holding the leg near the fetlock joint.

I'm glad your friend bought the horse - it sounds like the horse was "kindly abused", if that makes any sense:?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've had good luck with this method of either you cooperate or you work. Have your lunge line on him and your whip and the moment he spooks or gets goosey, send him out to lunge like you plan on killing him. Do 3 (no more, no less) circles at a brisk trot (no canter). Stand him where he was and start again. Again send him out if you have to. It often takes 2-4 times for the horse to make the mental connection. Since horses like to conserve energy for the fast get-away, they soon opt to stand quietly.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree with the last 3, also.

When I do have to get close to those back feet, even after I've gotten everything else ironed out, I use my "stupid on a stick."

It's a glove, filled with plastic bags until it's firm. Has a broom handle stuck up the middle, to which it is taped securely. I let this unfortunate piece of equipment go in first. It works well, and after the horse is giving his hoof to the glove, I go in as others described.


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses, looks like I'll be picking up a longer rope today. I've been making him stand normal and disengage his hind end when he starts hunching up to do his kicking/pulling. He is slowly picking up the idea that doing the idiot things is just making him go through yet more stuff and that when he relaxes and stands quiet he gets rewarded. The hard part for me is trying to get up to her house to work with him more as she has enough projects on her own and I live a hour away. I'm keeping him up there at this point because of money issues that just popped up and that I may be deploying some time this winter.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

Agree with most of the above. Agree fully with Cherie, although I have a feeling I approach things a bit differently:wink: and I would do the 'sacking out' using 'approach & retreat' techniques, to keep the horse's fear & reactivity to a minimum. I would ensure he was truly comfortable - not just putting up with it - about being touched all over & down his legs before attempting to ask him to pick them up.

Disagree with the 'you cooperate or you work' approach, as it sounds like the horse is afraid and so needs to get over that first at least, not just be forced into it despite his fear - I feel that's asking for 'accidents'.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

How many farriers screw around with all this stuff and still get their work done? Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that good ones don't seem to get bothered by anything that a horse does. They don't get afraid when the horse acts up, they don't get frustrated and hit the horse with their rasp, they just calmly, patiently and persistently go about their work until the work is done. If the horse takes his foot away, let him. Don't do anything about it. Pretend it never happened. Pet him and try to make him comfortable, then start again. Next time try to give it back before he has to take it. If he won't stand due to having too much energy, you'll have a lot easier of a time if you do something to get some of that out of his system before fooling with his feet. 

It's really just common sense stuff, but for some reason we seem to think that we need to do all these training exercises before we can deal with the feet. But it's not the case.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ian McDonald said:


> How many farriers screw around with all this stuff and still get their work done?


I don't think I get your comments, but I know a fair number of farriers with the "Stand up ya ba*****d" approach that will attempt to manhandle any horse. Many of them hate horses & have been kicked & injured repeatedly. Many of them succeed in getting the job done & many horses put up with it out of fear. But many more become gradually worse about having feet handled & become a problem for anyone with less brawn. I would not allow this type anywhere near my horses.

Good farriers I know of will take the time to calm and trim an 'edgy' horse or one who hasn't had much training, but will tell the owner the horse is not safe & needs more training before it can have it's hooves trimmed if/when that applies. Most of them understandably want to get the job done that they're being paid for & don't get offered extra to spend the time to train.... or unnecessarily risk injuries. Of course there are countless occurences of farriers just not returning the calls of owners of 'difficult' horses & there are also known 'blacklisted' horses(& owners) that the local professionals know not to have a bar of.



> Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed that good ones don't seem to get bothered by anything that a horse does.


Not just you. IMO that's one measure of a good horseperson:wink:. 



> Next time try to give it back before he has to take it. If he won't stand due to having too much energy, you'll have a lot easier of a time if you do something to get some of that out of his system before fooling with his feet.


Very good advice IMO.



> It's really just common sense stuff, but for some reason we seem to think that we need to do all these training exercises before we can deal with the feet. But it's not the case.


Well since you brought up 'common sense', considering we're dealing with a large prey/flight animal & we're talking about handling the most dangerous part of their anatomy and taking away their ability of flight, I consider it 'common sense stuff' & good safety precautions to get the horse comfortable & confident with me being handled generally before I direct my focus at their feet. I actually doubt there's much sense involved at all if someone just attempts to get in & focus on picking up/trimming a horse's feet regardless of the horse's preparation, behaviour, bodylanguage, etc.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

loosie said:


> Well since you brought up 'common sense', considering we're dealing with a large prey/flight animal & we're talking about handling the most dangerous part of their anatomy and taking away their ability of flight, I consider it 'common sense stuff' & good safety precautions to get the horse comfortable & confident with me being handled generally before I direct my focus at their feet. I actually doubt there's much sense involved at all if someone just attempts to get in & focus on picking up/trimming a horse's feet regardless of the horse's preparation, behaviour, bodylanguage, etc.


Maybe. XD though I can tell you that the better you get, the more you can get straight to the point with these horses and actually make them better (do your 'training') as you're working on their feet. It requires the human to have a little more courage though. :wink:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You have to decide if he is truly spooky or is skillful at using his jumpiness to get out of doing what you want. Take the horse and lunge him at the trot, both ways for about 10 min. He doesn't really want to do this as he'd rather save his energy for that fast getaway should a predator show up. Now is the time to ask for a foot, then do as I've mentioned in my earlier post. If you have to send (chase) him out he's really thinking about conserving energy. Life would be easier for farriers if horses got a good workout before his arrival, so the horse is enjoying a rest as the farrier works on the hooves.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think a lot of people are missing entirely what I am doing with the long rope and the 'sacking out' process. I am 'teaching' the horse that there is nothing to fear and all of the 'perceived scary objects or moves' are actually no threat to his safety. 

I, in no way, 'force' a terrified horse to stand tied. Unless a horse is very spoiled and mad from the git-go, they do very little. They seldom set back because I have tied them a lot BEFORE I start sacking out.

*Remember my outline for ALL training? Never ask a horse to do anything that he is not ready and able to do! *

When I sack a horse out, reactive or not, he is already tying well. I do not approach a horse like I am trying to scare him. I never get right up in a horse's face. I am trying to show him there is nothing to be feared -- I am not trying to see if I can get him to react violently. Any dummy can get a horse to throw a fit. If one goes about it intelligently, you can teach a horse to accept that soft rope everywhere, can teach him to yield to any pressure from this rope and can have each hind foot picked up very quickly. I use 'approach and retreat' for every move the rope or I make. I back off and take all pressure off the instant the horse does the right thing.

Now, if a horse is already very spoiled and already has learned to kick at people, to threaten people, to make people step back away from them, then they may get really mad. This is a safe way to 'outlast' the most spoiled kicker while he is making it hard on himself and the easy thing for him to do is to 'give it up'. You never punish the horse and sure never hit the horse. You just let him decide that fighting is the hard thing to do and standing and 'giving' is the easy thing to do. You never have to do anything that the horse EVER resents.

As for a 'sneaking' around an untrained horse --- yes, there are good farriers (not a whole lot of them) that can sneak around a pretty green and a pretty tough horse and get him trimmed. A lot fewer can get one shod. Shame on you if you think this is the 'ideal' situation and all anyone needs is a better farrier. 

It should NOT be the farrier's problem. Around here, most would just pack up their tools and drive off -- and not come back. They are not getting paid to train anyone's horse, unless, of course, that person has actually hired them to take the extra time to train and trim their horse. This is the owner's job. Farriers do not get paid enough to try to trim your rank, spoiled horse.

I have mentioned before that almost all of our shoeing is done by the Oklahoma State Horseshoeing School in Ardmore, OK, 30 miles from home. We keep shoes on 20 to 25 horses at all times. Seven or 8 of them are young, green horses while the others are pretty solid horses. Every young horse that I haul down there for their first shoes must let a student (oftentimes pretty ineptly) take most of a day to get shoes on their feet. They all come home shod and I never get any complaints from the students or the instructors. That is because I 'train' then first.

When I sell a horse, it will stand tied anywhere and let anyone that knows how to handle a horse's feet step up and trim or shoe them. I never want to hand a person the lead-rope and then give them a 'list' of what the handler does and does not have to do to get along with the horse. Every item on a 'list' is a hole in a horse's training. Same was true when I trained for the public. Horses had to go home without a list.

As for 'running a horse around' when it does not do the right thing --- I won't even consider going there. I have had horses that would bolt and run every time they did something wrong because that is what someone did before I got them. Can it work? Sure, on some horses. 'Actual training' always works better. I have seen 'hot-bloods' that could run in circles for 10 miles and still want to grab a foot away and run off. If this is how you 'train' a horse (and I use 'train' very loosely), I hate to see what happens if the horse is lame or has some leg or foot problem that preceded the farrier visit. If I ever encourage a horse to move away from me, you can bet it will be backing up and not running forward.

JMHO on how it works at my house. Cherie


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Shame on you if you think this is the 'ideal' situation and all anyone needs is a better farrier.


:shock: 

LOL I can't speak for everyone but I understood what you meant about the long rope. Craig Cameron uses a similar method as his personal style of getting things done. You can see it in action on his "Darkness into Light" DVD. You can also use a reata for the same purpose, rope the hind feet and teach them to lead up by the front feet like Ray Hunt used to do. Though usually it's tough for the less experienced person do deal with having extra rope, but they really do need to just suck it up and learn to if they want to get good haha. Personally, I usually start with La Reata and once they're cool with that, hobble break them. Then I rarely have much trouble with the feet. But that's just me. 

Btw I don't sneak around a horse. I make them better.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> *Remember my outline for ALL training? Never ask a horse to do anything that he is not ready and able to do! *
> ............
> As for a 'sneaking' around an untrained horse --- yes, there are good farriers (not a whole lot of them) that can sneak around a pretty green and a pretty tough horse and get him trimmed. A lot fewer can get one shod. Shame on you if you think this is the 'ideal' situation and all anyone needs is a better farrier.
> 
> ...


Just thought those bits especially wouldn't hurt to be repeated!:wink:


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I absolutely LOVE a hobble broke horse. I hobble broke ALL my horses. It was interesting when I took a Warm Blood or a Thoroughbred and threw a set of hobbles on them when I went somewhere and everyone was riding English (as was I). 

I still have those hobbles I used to hobble break a horse. 

I did have one horse that would take off and could move as fast with hobbles as without them. She needed 3 way hobbles or you were walking home. LOL


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

I have to wonder how often farriers has to work with horses that will not stand for them. I know the farrier we use has commented in the past on how pain in the butt a lot of horses are getting because they are not taught to stand there and not lean or chew on the farrier. My mom did a lot of the farrier work growing up and she drilled into both my head and the horses that they have to stand quiet and absolutely no touching or leaning on the farrier. As for training, I have used the "run you into the ground if you are an arsehole" on a few horses who where both _lazy and spoiled_. The problem is that lot of the horses I have worked with love to move anyway so it would have defeated it being a punishment. 

With my new guy, he's more of a honest idiot. He doesn't have a whole lot of foundation to work with or act up in defiance of. And never fear, he is getting a really in depth foundation on ground manners, right now the feet are our main concern because he's never had them done and now that he's on softer ground he's not going to be able to grind them down like before. With that though, I got him out yesterday and by the end of an hour I could take a brush and get down to his hock area with him being relaxed.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

When we first got Harley, you couldn't touch his back legs. The only way one could trim them was to tie or chain his back leg to a tree. Yes, they did use a chain. After I was able to work with him, he now lifts his back leg before you can reach for it.

Here's what I did. Some may reiterate some things already mentioned. I started with sacking out with the rope. Getting him comfortable with the rope being tossed anywhere around his body. Use approach and retreat, keep tossing the rope at the same area if he reacts, stop when he stands calmly. When he stands calmly no matter where you toss the rope, start rubbing him down with your hand. Start at his neck and move towards his back end and down his legs. If he tries to move away, keep rubbing the same spot until he stops moving. At that point, go back towards his neck a little and start over. 

Once you can run your hand down both back legs, take your rope again and loop around one back leg. I don't stand at their shoulder but straight out from their butt on th side. Use a second rope to their halter or a helper to keep the horse from turning away from you. Pull slightly on the looped rope until the horse lifts that leg. If the horse tries to kick out of the rope and you are standing out to the side, the force of the kick will be side to side for you where you can keep steady pressure on the rope. If you are standing at his side, you can easily be puled towards his kicking leg or have the rope pulled from you which releases the pressure. That release can enforce that his kicking is the correct answer. You want the pressure to remain until he stops kicking, then release the pressure. 

When he doesn't kick using the rope, go back to using your hand. Start with letting go as soon as he lifts his hoof comes off the ground and slowly increase the time he keeps it off the ground. When you let go, rub him on his back and let him stand for a few seconds before you try again. 

As for farriers tollerating horses that won't stand still or kick out, that is not their job. That is up to the owner to have the horse stand nicely. All the farriers I know would quit with the horse until the behavior was fixed. I also have no issue with a farrier giving correction to the horse if needed. Sometimes a horse will behave for the owner but will test a new or infrequent person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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