# licking lips



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Goodbye13lueSky said:


> When a horse learns and understands they lick their lips or chew, but if they respond the same but stops licking and chewing, does that mean they get it and think there is nothing more to know about it?


I know this'll likely upset a few people, but licking and chewing is considered within scientific and equine behavioural circles to be a sign of stress and anxiety.

This is is direct contradiction with what many trainers will tell you. Or is it (if you think about it).

Secondly in answer to your question from an aspect of brain activity, no it doesn't mean they get it. Horses like many humans (and babies) need to process information before it becomes linked and learned. That means they need to rest and 'file' the information. That is why short bursts of training, then quitting for a day work as fast if not faster than prolonged episodes.


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## Goodbye13lueSky (Sep 22, 2009)

I suppose that makes sense. So if you ask something of the and they lick and chew it could mean they are a bit concerned if they are doing it right? 
In my own experience it seems more of a sign that they understand. If I am trying to teach a horse something small and they do it correctly I pat them then they lick and chew for a few seconds.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Well in the learning sense as I say it's not actually in direct contradiction if you accept that enforced problem solving is stressful for horses. It's not how they evolved, or how they work naturally. Hence why NH is anything but, and when trainers talk of how horses think they have it the wrong way round....

Anyway that aside, in those circumstances then even mild challenges will cause some anxiety and hence the chewing. (not saying that's necessarily bad and or avoidable). Secondly in cases like 'Join Up' it demonstrates just how stressful that is - nothing to do with 'look at me I'm a herbivore'. Like the other horses didn't already know that lol but then that comes back to the other thread around common sense.........


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Doe said:


> I know this'll likely upset a few people, but licking and chewing is considered within scientific and equine behavioural circles to be a sign of stress and anxiety.
> 
> This is is direct contradiction with what many trainers will tell you. Or is it (if you think about it).
> 
> Secondly in answer to your question from an aspect of brain activity, no it doesn't mean they get it. Horses like many humans (and babies) need to process information before it becomes linked and learned. That means they need to rest and 'file' the information. That is why short bursts of training, then quitting for a day work as fast if not faster than prolonged episodes.


 
My understanding it that the lick and chew is the actual release of tension. Horse hold tension in their jaw, just as we do! When they have gone through a stressful situation, and the pressure is eased off a bit, they will often lick and chew to dispell the tension. Does not mean they are totally relaxed or comprehending, just that the tension has momentarily crested and is being expelled by the movement of the jaw.

Plenty of jaw movement can bring about greater relaxation. This is one of the reasons why classical dressage seeks to have the horse relax his jaw and mouth the bit.


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## Goodbye13lueSky (Sep 22, 2009)

This is all confusing yet it makes perfect sense....hm


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> My understanding it that the lick and chew is the actual release of tension. Horse hold tension in their jaw, just as we do! When they have gone through a stressful situation, and the pressure is eased off a bit, they will often lick and chew to dispell the tension. Does not mean they are totally relaxed or comprehending, just that the tension has momentarily crested and is being expelled by the movement of the jaw.
> 
> Plenty of jaw movement can bring about greater relaxation. This is one of the reasons why classical dressage seeks to have the horse relax his jaw and mouth the bit.


Yes tiny that is correct to a point. It is considered the are three stages with chewing.

1 release of tension as you say
2 zoning out - the horse is mentally trying to escape - chewing is a bit like grinding our teeth.
3 acid release - stomach acids rise (and potentially blood ph shifts with the stress) chewing accompanies this mechanism with the release of saliva. 

There are various studies, one was the same team that did the cardiac transfer experiment.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

very interesting. I am not familiar with the cardiac transfer experiment. Is that something you want to elaborate on?


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## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

My yearling was licking & chewing like crazy this morning while she was trying to figure out how to dump out the dog food can with me sitting next to it! I laughed my fanny off!!! Then told her to leave the porch!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I have observed licking lips to be a sign of releasing tension, or relaxation more than an 'understanding' situation. I have seen some horses that will be lightly stressed and will lick lips as they are processing information after a release of pressure. 

Now I never see chewing as relaxing. Chewing to me shows anxiety and higher stress levels. Then extreme stress is with tight lips and jaw. Chewing can be from boredom as well.


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## Goodbye13lueSky (Sep 22, 2009)

thanks everyone for the info!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IMHO, horses are individuals and there is no set rule as to what "licking and chewing" means. Licking and chewing are a horse using his mouth, but without reading the rest of the body, I wouldn't assume anything. A horse with a hard eye and a tight lip chewing means he's thinking about USING those teeth. I had a roundpenning wannabe point to the horse they were "free lunging" proudly announce to everyone within earshot "See? He's chewing, relaxed and listening to me" but what I saw was an angry horse grinding it's teeth - completely focused on the person alright, but high headed, wide eyed and body bow string tight, so tense you could bounce a quarter off him and catch it in the stands - like a horse ready to explode. A horse who is bored to tears might lick, chew and even yawn and not be relaxed - looking around, not paying attention, handler constantly nagging, etc . Babies will show submission by mouthing (which looks a lot like chewing) when they approach older horses - some have even done it to me. Some horses will chew with their ears pinned as a warning and others can develop a habit of fiddling/playing with the bit that seems to carry over when a bit isn't in the mouth. Others will pick up bites of whatever footing they're on and mouth it while they are being worked. Some will relax their lower lip and sometimes their ears so that they flop and others will never lick or chew no matter how many laps they make around a pen. I've also seen a horse who was performing perfectly begin to chew/bite the air, when asked to whoa, he did and immediately began scratching the wrap on his front leg with his teeth.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Horse poor

Yes and no.

Of course everything has to be taken in context, however the rules are set. The animal kingdom all have physiological 'triggers' associated with certain neurological functions. For example in humans, recollection of memories etc is triggered by eye movement. That is the basis of NLP (neuro linguistic programming). If the eyes are restricted, for example with nerve blocks, then the memory recall is slowed and accuracy reduces.

Horses are the same in that they have triggers though they are different triggers to ours. The important point is simply to debunk the commonly promoted belief that licking and chewing is a good thing, and is more commonly related in one form or another to stress and anxiety.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My extremely people fearful horse had a hugh breakthrough. I'd been working with him at liberty, respecting his wishes for most of a month. Altho he'd freguently mouth I also observed the rest of his body which was always rock hard. This particular evening I approached him and just began grooming his body with my hand. His head was high and neck muscles tense. I found a few bug bites and rubbed them. His lip twitched, a first. I then moved to face him and rubbed his cheeks and foerhead. He started mouthing like mad and head bobbing so I took a few steps back. This kept up for about half a minute. What I began to witness was all the tension leaving his body, almost an ethereal quality. He is now a completely different horse, no more jumpiness, bolting, and no more zoning out.And he's a vey nice horse now.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Foals chew when they are anxious and want their mommy. Do you think that this is the same process?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Doe said:


> Horse poor
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> ...


Why is it so important to you to "debunk commonly promoted beliefs"? I fail to see the point are you trying to prove other than everyone is wrong except you. And I disagree, any sense can trigger a memory… I've never seen a blind person have a problem with memory and you can't get more "eyes are restricted" than that. I've also seen blind horses and deaf horses who were ridden beautifully and you wouldn't know they were blind or deaf by their actions (Bright Zip and Gunner).


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Horse Poor said:


> Why is it so important to you to "debunk commonly promoted beliefs"? I fail to see the point are you trying to prove other than everyone is wrong except you. And I disagree, any sense can trigger a memory… I've never seen a blind person have a problem with memory and you can't get more "eyes are restricted" than that. I've also seen blind horses and deaf horses who were ridden beautifully and you wouldn't know they were blind or deaf by their actions (Bright Zip and Gunner).


Because if the 'commonly promoted belief' is based on myth rather than fact, then it is of no use to horse or human. Historically some beliefs were simply based on a lack of understanding or knowledge. Unfortunately today many are perpetuated by trainers and gurus who seek to make their methods more acceptable or seem 'kinder' to people who seek such a way with their horses.

Returning to NLP I did not say that other senses could not trigger a memory, indeed they can. What I said was - physical movement of the eyes (not sight) helps the brain to unlock it's memories. Eye movement in different directions indicates the type of recollection. For example created memory ie making an image of something you have not seen versus recollection of a real memory. That is accepted science and is an industry in itself. Blind people are still able to move their eyes in general it has nothing to do with the ability to see.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Interesting. Ive also been told that licking and chewing means the horse is relaxed. I've seen licking and chewing when another horse has some kind of infection too. Has anyone else seen that? That kind of makes Doe's position sound right too. As in, perhaps the other horses are getting stressed because they are aware that another horse nearby is sick/not well.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Foals chew when they are anxious and want their mommy. Do you think that this is the same process?


That's an interesting point, I'm not sure to be honest. I will have to look into that.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

I don't think that bringing in fringe practices like NLP is helping your argument here, Doe. What would be useful would be to provide some links or citations to the scientific/equine circles to support the claim that licking/chewing is a sign of stress. I don't have a strong opinion on this matter - I do know that when the horse I ride a couple times a week decides to stop racing around the paddock and stand, licking and chewing, it is an indicator that he's ready to get haltered up, and that his body doesn't display any of the other typical signs that I observe when he is definitely stressed or anxious. But I do know that I'd find this discussion more informative and persuasive if I had more information about the basic assumptions that are being advanced.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Shasta1981 said:


> Interesting. Ive also been told that licking and chewing means the horse is relaxed. I've seen licking and chewing when another horse has some kind of infection too. Has anyone else seen that? That kind of makes Doe's position sound right too. As in, perhaps the other horses are getting stressed because they are aware that another horse nearby is sick/not well.


Yes good point, I've seen that when another horse was put to sleep and when horses have been stabled with a sick horse nearby.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

> I don't think that bringing in fringe practices like NLP


I understand and accept your point. I would hardly consider NLP a fringe practice however. It is an accepted science within mainstream psychology as another form of neuro-associative conditioning. It is widely used in everything from business psychology to tv adverts, and was arguably the basis for the development of CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) which is the most effective form of non-repetitive therapy currently known to man.

In terms of sources there are many and I'm happy provide as many as you wish. The limitating factor is that unless you have a Vetlib subscription or the like, you cannot read them. However I know some universities and farrier libraries allow access too.

Your observation about the field and not displaying the usual signs is perfect for discussion. One of the things i would love to discuss is exactly that. Our natural or learned interpretation of stress signs in a horse are not necessarily what a horse may display. For example I have been fortunate enough to observe the Tarpan in their natural habitat. (in this case S Russia) In that sense I am truly privileged. They are the closest thing to wild horses left that a human being can possibly observe during our lifetime. Interestingly when stressed they stand still but still chew like antelope. Is that connected? Who knows.


I will go and gather a listing for you now.


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Thanks, that would be great. I live in the States, and here NLP seems to be considered a pseudo-science that is lacking in empirical evidence of efficacy, ungrounded in credible scientific principles. My sister has a master's in clinical therapy and considers it to be "discredited". I do know several people who are involved with it here, and it seems to be largely the provenance of those who make money by selling inspirational conventions, books, and tapes. I am wondering if it has a different meaning in the UK.

The signs of stress I look for in the horse are an allover tensing that makes it seem like his skin has gotten tight, rapidly flicking or pinned ears, head raised high and/or tossing, sharply focused eyes and/or the whites, flaring nostrils, tail twitching, feet shifting, collected haunch muscles, etc. Not all of these mean he is stressed, but some assortment of them appear when he is stressed. He doesn't like to stand still for grooming, and he either dislikes or is frightened by the sound of farm equipment, so I get a lot of opportunity to observe his "stressed" state. 

When this horse is standing and chewing, getting ready to get haltered, his skin and muscles are relaxed, his head is lowered and stretching out to me, his ears are forward, his nostrils are relaxed, his breathing is regular, and his eyes are not staring. I don't know about wild horses or horses in general, but I do know about *this* horse, and this licking and chewing is not part of his stress behavior package.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

> Thanks, that would be great. I live in the States, and here NLP seems to be considered a pseudo-science that is lacking in empirical evidence of efficacy, ungrounded in credible scientific principles. My sister has a master's in clinical therapy and considers it to be "discredited". I do know several people who are involved with it here, and it seems to be largely the provenance of those who make money by selling inspirational conventions, books, and tapes. I am wondering if it has a different meaning in the UK.


Yes I think the US suffered from the watered down and commercialised version by people such as Anthony Robbins. In the practical use sense it is not meant for that purpose. What it does do is prove the importance and the connection between physiology and mental state. How the two are aligned, they reflect each other and alter each other.

We see this in horses all the time. Most people recognise that a horse with his head down can become calmer versus a horse with his head in flight mode. Such that teaching a horse to drop his head on cue is used as a control/calming mechanism. The physiology of the horse affects his mental state.

Similarly when I work with arena sour horses, they are not lazy they just see no purpose. When I show them how they can move naturally, allow them to feel powerful and move like a stallion - they begin to act that way. Even to the extent that their position in their group changes.

We are no different. Walk with poor posture, breath slowing, shoulders down etc, and after a while you will feel flat or depressed. Walk upright, smiling, faster breathing, etc etc and it's much less likely you will feel depressed. Very anecdotal example I know, but you get the impression I'm sure.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

> The signs of stress I look for in the horse are an allover tensing that makes it seem like his skin has gotten tight, rapidly flicking or pinned ears, head raised high and/or tossing, sharply focused eyes and/or the whites, flaring nostrils, tail twitching, feet shifting, collected haunch muscles, etc. Not all of these mean he is stressed, but some assortment of them appear when he is stressed. He doesn't like to stand still for grooming, and he either dislikes or is frightened by the sound of farm equipment, so I get a lot of opportunity to observe his "stressed" state.
> 
> When this horse is standing and chewing, getting ready to get haltered, his skin and muscles are relaxed, his head is lowered and stretching out to me, his ears are forward, his nostrils are relaxed, his breathing is regular, and his eyes are not staring. I don't know about wild horses or horses in general, but I do know about *this* horse, and this licking and chewing is not part of his stress behavior package.


Indeed the skin tightening etc are all signs of an elevated state. There are however levels of stress. One thing is that we are taking a wild animal and domesticating it. As such there is a confusion between evolved survival instincts and breeding/familiarity. Sometimes we are overloading the system and horses are showing that they lack coping mechanisms and begin to exhibit almost catatonic behaviour (another expression *******ised by certain US moneymakers).

So high stress scenarios actually cause many horses to shut down and it is easy to confuse with a calm horse unless they explode. (and I am merely discussion I am not suggesting this is your horse in anyway)

In reality it makes sense. If a horses natural instinct is to run with the herd, and we both remove it from the herd and restrict it ability to run, then how does it cope. When cornered some animals attack, others simply lie down.

I know a girl who lost her lower leg to a horse like that. She never balked, grunted, pulled, took off or anything. However push her just that little bit too far and she would stop, look like she was asleep, then bronc almost pneumatically it was so slow and controlled yet so high. The second time she didn't land well. After 2 years and several operations the leg had to be amputated. That cause? Well as far as I could tell it was the result of sending her to stand (ie to be impregnated by a stud) The handling eighths chains, being poled etc broke her mentally and certain innocent touches triggered that response.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, from 50 years of training and observing -- let me explain what I have observed. Didn't read it anywhere. Just have watched it -- a lot.

There are 2 -- actually 3 different kinds of chewing. 

1) Nervous, tense chewing where you hear the teeth grind and there is absolutely NO relaxation. It denotes fear, apprehension, uneasiness, anything BUT being relaxed and comfortable.

2) Relaxed chewing (comes frequently with licking the lips) when a horse 'lets down' after having his teeth clinched or has been grinding and chewing with fear and apprehension. This is the relaxing that I am sure trainers and clinicians are referring to. It is definitely a 'let down' moment that is much like the big 'sigh' some horses give when they let down.

3) Clacking or the chewing motion that foals make in stressful situations -- especially when being confronted by horses they do not know or trust. I think it simply is a baby's way of say "Don't hurt me. I am just a baby."

I love to see this 'clacking' when a big tough 2 year old colt is confronted by a bigger tougher stallion or gelding and he wants to be viewed as a baby and not a threat to the bigger horse. I have observed horses as old as 4 do this baby chewing when they were really afraid that their mouth had over-loaded their **** and they wanted a way out.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What Cherie said. I'm too inexperienced to have seen #3, but I've seen both 1 & 2.

Like most things in language, context is important. I've watch Mia chewing when she was on the edge of exploding, and I've seen her do it when she 'understood'. By that, I mean she visibly relaxed, and relaxing is the full release. If she associates that with the thing she did that bought her the release, then yes, she has 'understood'.

And for those like me who had no idea what NLP was, here is a Wiki article:

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Doe said:


> I know a girl who lost her lower leg to a horse like that. She never balked, grunted, pulled, took off or anything. However push her just that little bit too far and she would stop, look like she was asleep, then bronc almost pneumatically it was so slow and controlled yet so high. The second time she didn't land well. After 2 years and several operations the leg had to be amputated. That cause? Well as far as I could tell it was the result of sending her to stand (ie to be impregnated by a stud) The handling eighths chains, being poled etc broke her mentally and certain innocent touches triggered that response.


IMHO... Horses don't associate or think like we do - that's why you have to train them from both sides. When a horse reacts as this one did, they aren't thinking of prior instances in some other place, they are thinking of now - right now - where they are now and what is happening now. Horses don't lump experiences together in one big package. She would not associate the ring and riding with the abuse of hand breeding at the pole. If this horse exploded in the ring, then something set her off there - the rider, saddle fit, frustration, etc. I know a horse who loads perfectly on the left side of a trailer, but will violently refuse to be loaded on the right. The horse was in a trailering accident and associates being on the right side with the accident, but not the left side. He doesn't care if the trailer is identical to the one the accident occurred in or some other make/model/color, he'll load like a champ on the left side - but only on the left.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

There's an interesting response here from Sue McDonnell PhD who's a ve't I believe as well as a specialist in animal behavioural science.

"The lowered head, relaxed posture, licking, and chewing are part of an autonomic response when stress or pain fluctuates, or when panic or startle resolve. The first scientific description I encountered was in the field of neurophysiology. In mammals, this cluster of responses occurs when the animal is returning from predominantly sympathetic tone (fight or flight response) back to parasympathetic tone (feed or breed response). This process is also known as sympathetic attenuation. So it is seen in all sorts of situations.

The textbook example of this relief after distress is that moment after the police's flashing light and siren whizzes on by without pulling you over. You might have a little itch on the scalp or neck, have to swallow, or exhale long and hard. A more dramatic driving scenario would be spinning out on ice, where your heart rate jumps, you break into a cold sweat, and have to pull over and hold your head in your hands before regaining focus.

These are the same signs in horses, to various degrees.

When a horse is suddenly frightened, then quiets down, the head drops, there might be salivation, tongue and jaw movements, and a sigh. It does occur in all horses, feral or domestic, whenever startled by something in the environment, or after a disturbance. In domestic horses, we see it most often when evaluating video of hospitalized horses in association with episode of pain, a minor seizure, or the collapse of narcolepsy. The scenario can be reliably provoked by presenting a startling noise, then letting things quiet down.

These behaviors also can be induced by administering drugs that produce the neurochemical conditions in the brain corresponding to anxiety and panic. Some have been studied in horses. At certain blood levels, panic followed by relief responses is seen. Rapid blinking and yawning, which are signs of the related autonomic state of mild anxiety, are seen at different blood levels. So these behaviors have always seemed very physiologic--plain and simple, no thought is required.

So in the popular demonstrations in which a horse is run around a pen, then allowed to stop--I think of the same simple underlying autonomic physiology. Scare or excite the horse, then stop.

Certainly, it could also be consistent with the more complex behavioral concept of displacement behavior. This term refers to behavior occurring out of context (usually feeding behavior) in a thwarted goal or conflicted situation. The horse is motivated to escape, but is thwarted from escape and the energy is redirected to feeding motivation, which induces salivation, chewing, etc. The jaw and tongue movements relieve the energy and so attenuate the stress.

The physiologist's and behaviorist's interpretations seem much more plausible than the submission, trust, "digesting a thought," or "dawning moment" you hear about in popular horse talk. That's why some people question whether the high-pressure aspect of some "natural horsemanship" techniques are the most humane. They would say that if the horse is thinking, it's likely "I'm scared, want to get out of here now," or "Thank goodness this guy has stopped chasing me in circles so I can relax for a minute."

Years ago we studied punishment in horse training. In that context, when subjects "figured out" how to avoid the punishment, they usually showed the lowered head, lip licking, chewing, and sighing. They then responded correctly and avoided punishment, so they had learned. But they usually showed signs of anxiety and mild depression. The end of a training trial seemed like relief, "Thank goodness that's over," and they became reluctant to do the trials.

In contrast, more recently we've been doing some cognition studies using all positive reinforcement. This involves basic operant conditioning trials designed to test the ability of horses to understand a concept in relation to discriminating between various olfactory, auditory, or visual stimuli, presented two at a time. When at first the horse accidentally made the correct response, it got a food reward. If the choice was incorrect, no treat, no punishment, we just went on to the next presentation.

Each horse reached an "Ah ha!" point where they seemed to "get it," after which they made nearly 100% correct choices. They seemed more eager in their anticipation of the next presentation and more enthusiastic in their response as if they could play the game all day. And their enthusiasm for learning seemed to stay with them.

Some individuals do go through a stage of apparent frustration when early--or by chance--they have a series of incorrect choices. They might paw and turn their head back away from the stimulus presentation board as if they want to leave. When those animals finally "get it," they might show some lip licking, jaw movements, and deep exhalation, but those signs are not as strong as the situations involving fear, pain, or punishment learning paradigms.

These differences in the "dawning moments" of the punishment vs. negative reinforcement vs. all-positive reinforcement learning models--with and without a period of frustration--are very interesting.

Katrina, you didn't mention the training method in your "dawning moment," but I guess it was primarily pressure and release (negative reinforcement) as opposed to positive reinforcement. I'm becoming convinced that study of the relative effectiveness of pressure and release methods vs. positive reinforcement-based training might lead to advances in horse science and more humane training methods."


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

There's also this article, which although is predominantly about not agreeing with round penning focuses on what the licking,chewing means, and has contributions from leading behaviourists and trainers.

http://www.concaballos.com.ar/articulos/Article%20from%20Cavallo.pdf


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, I will say that round penning has worked well with the 3 horses I've tried it on. They have become more relaxed, not more tense. They calm down quicker after a fright and are less pushy when I feed them.

It is negative reinforcement training, but what is 'unnatural' about that? When my mare kicks or bites my gelding, it is natural and it sure isn't positive reinforcement!

I've also watched my mare 'round pen' the others in the corral for hours on end after behavior she didn't appreciate. She hasn't watched any DVDs, but she expects to be able to control the movement of a subordinate horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ray Hunt used to say that he would "put a horse in a bind, then give him a way out". It's definitely an artificial way of making the horse look to the human as the leader, and no doubt stressful for a bit. but it works. If he had had to train every horse that he trained with the clicker method or other positive (treats) way, he would not have had the time to do so. It's much slower and more dependent on having treats available at all time (most times, rather).

There is no doubt that round penning and most training methods used cause the horse stress. I think it is rather unavoidable . You are trying to make an animal that would really rather have nothing to do with you on its back, change its way of being and put you in leadership over itself.

When I am round penning,. and I am NO expert, the thing I am looking for is that the horse is looking to me for instruction and stability, not outside the pen. So, I may have to make looking outward an uncomfortable place to be until the horse starts looking somewhere else and then I make being with me a peaceful place to be. I think that is the idea.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

BSMS, Tiny

I'm more than happy to discuss the merits or otherwise of round penning in it's various forms, and/or positive reinforcement vs negative reinforcement training. However perhaps we should start another thread for that as I do not wish to derail the OPs thread. The question was around the meaning and interpretation of licking/chewing. I was asked to provide some supporting opinion contrary to the common view of what it represents. The above articles were for that purpose and not to question round penning or negative reinforcement as I tried to make clear when I posted them.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I, pretty much, agree with the article. Licking and chewing has absolutely nothing to do with 'getting it'. It is in no part connected to learning anything. It is just what I called it -- A letdown from being fearful, mad or a least uncomfortable. It denote, to me, that a horse is going from a 'reactive mode' to a 'responsive or thinking mode'. 

When a horse is tense, it is going to react to any and every stimulus, but it is going to be a flight, fear or mad reaction until it is too tired to fight any longer. There are much better ways to get it to that point. When it is reacting, it is not thinking or learning. 

I also agree that the learning that comes with the release of pressure does not work when the horse is reacting. ONLY after the horse has 'let down' and is thinking and responding is the pressure and release even going to work and then the pressure only has to be a light touch.

I have never seen any sense in running a horse around a round pen unless it is hard to catch or turns its butt. Then, you do not have to chase it or tire it out; but you only have to wave it away from you until it looks at you.

I am a firm believer in tying a horse out until it is in a responsive mode and would much rather get a horse to start thinking that way. What I can tell you is useless, is trying to teach a horse anything that is scared, mad, upset about leaving its buddies, or in a reactive mode for any other reason. It is simply going to ware out the horse and the person and get nothing done until the horse 'lets down'. It will show you that it is letting down by dropping its head, relaxing its jaw (licking and chewing) and giving a big 'sigh'. 

When anyone comes and works as an apprentice, one of the first things I tell them is that I do not want them 'fighting' a horse. When a conflict first starts, I want them to tie the horse in the shade and I want both them and the horse to 'let down' and go back to thinking.

There are times when you need to win battles, but you need to think them out carefully and decide: 

1) Have you asked the horse to do something that it was ready and able to do?

2) Have you asked in a way that the horse understands? Have you made the response you want to be the obvious easy choice for the horse?

3) Are you calm and asking in a deliberate and low-key manner that will not send the horse into a 'reacting mode'? 

4) Are you ready to step back and let both you and the horse 'cool off' and start over if the horse gets into a reacting mode?

A trainer just has to always remember that the horse is NOT learning anything good when it is in a reacting mode.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"A trainer just has to always remember that the horse is NOT learning anything good when it is in a reacting mode."

That is kind of the point in saying they learn at the lick & chew. A horse that panics isn't learning anything. A horse that STOPS panicking and that then does what you were asking, and licks & chews, is no longer reacting and may be associating the obedient action with being 'safe' - and maybe learning to look to you for guidance when things get tough.

When I went to teach Mia how to tie a few weeks ago, I didn't have any tall trees. I had a railing sunk 3 feet into the ground. At first, she panicked and pulled back, and wouldn't think of getting close to that 'scary spot' again...so she got to run in circles on a lunge line. For about 25 minutes, since she refused each invitation to return to the scary spot. 

When she was exhausted, she gave in, returned, and 5 minutes later was standing quietly with about a foot of slack. And yes, she licked and chewed...and the next day, we went to the scary spot without trouble, and it took about a minute of coaxing to get her to stand quietly with a foot of slack.

While she was galloping around on a lunge line, was she learning? Of course not. When she STOPPED running, and obeyed, and got to relax & smoke a cigarette (OK, she didn't smoke, but licked and chewed), was she learning?

Well, it sure seems like it. And when I go into the corral, she comes to me and stands with me, so she doesn't seem to resent it any more than Trooper does when Mia kicks/bites him for insubordination.

When I see Mia treat other horses with a clicker & treats, I'll believe positive reinforcement is 'natural horsemanship'. Until then, I'll go on believing the natural way involves a healthy dose of negative reinforcement, as well as calming times...


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