# Tried disciplining my horse tonight, and I am currently in tears.



## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

I'm currently crying and somewhat miserable right now because I've been having a rough time with my horse. After moving to a new stable and getting bucked off (likely a spook) and kicked in the leg severely both in the first two weeks I was there, ground manners and respect have obviously been an issue. She's always loved me, but she also likes to push me around. She's affectionate. She loves to hug, she sighs, she licks me and kisses me, but when she wants what she wants, she will push me around to get it. Usually I'm not that strict, but tonight, I became really assertive. 

I led her around, made sure she had ample space from me and was respecting my space, then I had her back up. I tried to wiggle the line to have her back up but she didn't get it, she thought that meant move forward, so I applied backward pressure. She pulled against it (we did this probably hundreds of times) and didn't listen -- it seemed like she understood and was trying to disobey, but maybe she didn't understand. So I pushed hard, forced my entire body into her, and had her move back. There were a couple points where I got SO frustrated that I even yelled at her a little bit, said NO, waved my arms at her (she almost reared up) and told her seriously to GET OUT OF MY SPACE. I felt so bad for getting mad at her (and not that any of you have to know this, but it's that time of the month, and for anyone who knows how easy it is to get ticked off... grrrr). 

So yeah, I started crying. I felt terrible for getting angry at her and like a terrible person for being assertive. I whacked her chest (not super hard, probably like a tap to a horse) with the end of the line to ask her to move back, and whenever she stopped paying attention to me, I pulled her head forcefully (I think a couple times she even sort of lost her balance). I was sure to reward her and love on her and pet her but I still ended up leaving frustrated and having lost my calm. I feel terrible about tonight, and I don't know if I did something good, or bad. 

Please help me. Thank you


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I hate to say it but this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, and could quickly escalate from her being a little pushy to seriously injuring you. You need to remember that when you are around her you are the herd leader, and you need to act like one. Next time she lifts a leg to kick smack her on the butt, hard and give her a firm no. If she were out in the pasture and lifed her leg to kick at the dominant mare she would get bitten or kicked at. You will never hurt your horse more than they hurt each other. If she starts to get into your space back her up fast. Use a whip to encourage her if you have to. Do you have access to a round pen? Round penning can be a good way to get your horse looking to you as the herd leader. For a while (maybe forever) you are not going to be able to be lovey-dovey with her. You need to set firm boundaries and not say "oh well today its okay for you to be in my space, but tomorrow it won't be!" That will just confuse her and get you nowhere. 

Also keep in mind that you only have 3 seconds after the bad behavior to correct her or she won't understand what she is being corrected for. Don't feel bad! Horses are a lot bigger than us and can easily hurt or kill you.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Rule number one to horse training... Check your emotions at the door. If you get upset, angry, mad, etc just stop. Walk away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

iDressage said:


> She's always loved me, but *she also likes to push me around*. She's affectionate. She loves to hug, she sighs, she licks me and kisses me, but when she wants what she wants, *she will push me around to get it*. Usually I'm not that strict, *but tonight, I became really assertive*.
> 
> I led her around, made sure she had ample space from me and was respecting my space, then I had her back up. I tried to wiggle the line to have her back up but she didn't get it, *she thought that meant move forward, so I applied backward pressure*. *She pulled against it* (we did this probably hundreds of times) and didn't listen -- it seemed like she understood and was trying to disobey, but maybe she didn't understand. *So I pushed hard*, forced my entire body into her, and had her move back. There were a couple points where *I got SO frustrated that I even yelled at her a little bit*, said NO, *waved my arms at her (she almost reared up)* and told her seriously to GET OUT OF MY SPACE. I felt so bad for getting mad at her (and not that any of you have to know this, but it's that time of the month, and for anyone who knows how easy it is to get ticked off... grrrr).
> 
> ...


What you did was both confusing and unneccesary but not for the reasons that you believe. 

You NEED to get her to move when you ask. If she doesn't know what line wiggle means, then you should teach her. If she does and she's ignoring you, up the pressure.

Pushing your entire body into her is ridiculous. She's a horse. She weighs likely 10x as much as you do. If she KNOWS she can't be moved by you because she's bigger, you're in trouble.

You mentioned that she likes to push you around. Yeah.. she does not respect you or your space. Likely it was a test and you failed, and you got frustrated...took it out on the horse, and ended up crying because of it.

Leave those emotions at the door of the barn. They do not belong in there AT all. 

If she shifts her weight back, good. If she pushes forward, no! Get her to move back. If you have to smack her with the leadrope when she ignores you, sometimes that's necessary. If my horse doesn't back up when asked, I spin the rope infront of his nose until he makes a move to back up, then it stops.

Pressure, release.

Also.. I hardly call that assertive. If I were a horse, I'd be very unimpressed. You need to up the pressure in a more constructive way.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

iDressage,
I am going to speak bluntly. you have posted many times with issues with this mare. you keep asking for advice, and I know that i've taken quite a bit of time putting together some words that I thought might help you. 
But, your uncertainty and confusion about how to treat a horse , as opposed to a "friend" are making both you and your mare unhappy. 
you want more from your mare, and you know that you need to have a better relationship with her, where you are a leader and she a confident follower. you are confusing getting angry with your horse, with being firm with your horse, and you are worrying that you will not be loved by your horse. 
This is all a confused approach, mixing horses with human emotions. 

You sound like a sweet person, and when you get someone to show you how to get a good response from your horse without being angry, you will be so releived to know that being firm will not cost you your horse's love. becuase your horse will be so much happier to know where she stands, each and every time, not just when you get mad.

Is there any way you can hire a trainer to help you? It would be so much easier on you to have someone show you how to do this, without the guess work and the self doubt.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> iDressage,
> I am going to speak bluntly. you have posted many times with issues with this mare. you keep asking for advice, and I know that i've taken quite a bit of time putting together some words that I thought might help you.
> But, your uncertainty and confusion about how to treat a horse , as opposed to a "friend" are making both you and your mare unhappy.
> you want more from your mare, and you know that you need to have a better relationship with her, where you are a leader and she a confident follower. you are confusing getting angry with your horse, with being firm with your horse, and you are worrying that you will not be loved by your horse.
> ...


This is mostly what I wanted to say, but I wanted to be nice about it. :lol: It sounds to me like this poster wants a pet that loves and adores her, and I don't think a horse is the right animal to do that. Horses do not love you, that is a human emotion. Horses basically understand leadership and respect.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Try to stop thinking about it as "discipline" as if the horse is doing something wrong and you're getting cross at it. 

Think of it as training. Your horse as learned to do something you don't like so you're teaching it to do something new. 

Commit to what you're doing, if you want her to get out of your space commit to being assertive and doing whatever you need to do to get your horse away from you. Commit to not stopping until she does. Don't get angry or frustrated because your horse doesn't know. You have to keep teaching her until she understands. Get whatever you need to increase pressure, whether that's just a rope, or a long stick thing or even a plastic bag. Start soft, squaring up to the horse, walking towards it or wiggling your rope and increase and if she moves towards you increase more, swing your stick, wave your arms in the air, wave a bag around, whatever, and as soon as she takes that step back stop everything, turn away even. Make it perfectly clear what stops the pressure. If you stop before getting what you want, even if you drop the lead, walk forward, and use pressure you've already stopped your pressure and changed - she's learned to not move. 

My horse was very "dead" to pressure and pushy when I got him. He wouldn't move out of my space until he "ran into" my swinging stick and got a shock, stepping back. As I released all pressure immediately, he picked up pretty quickly to move. If you're always consistent and always follow through until you achieve what you want your horse will learn quickly.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You are treating and thinking of this horse like a she is a big dog. SHE'S NOT! She's a horse!!!



> She's always loved me


 No she hasn't. She has learned -- somewhat -- to tolerate you. Sometimes she doesn't. That is why you've been kicked and run all over.



> She's affectionate. She loves to hug, she sighs, she licks me and kisses me, but when she wants what she wants, she will push me around to get it.


 What you perceive as 'love', 'hugs' and 'kisses' is NOT what you think it is. Again, she is somewhat tolerating you and would really like a herd leader instead of a wannabe best friend.

You are going to get hurt badly if you do not stop anthropomorphising her relationship with you. Horses make really lousy pets. A few tolerate people to that degree, but it is very few. They only tolerate the hugging and kissing and I have not seen one that was not more comfortable without it. They need consistent handling and very firm boundaries. They need unquestionable respect for their handlers. Most of all, they need a fair handler that does not expect unrealistic interactions. It is not fair to a horse to expect them to act like a big friendly dog. 

Talk abut confusing -- You want a horse to hug you and lick your face one time and respect your space the next -- how on earth do you think a horse can understand that?

You should be crying, but not for pushing your horse around. You should feel bad that you have confused her so much that she literally does not know if she is washing or hanging out. [If you're too young to understand that old saying, ask your grandmother.]


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

You sound pretty novice.

And I hate to beat a dead horse, nor am I saying this in a mean way. But you need a trainer. Not just for the horse, for you both.

You need guidance, she needs guidance you need an outside eye looking on both for your safety and to teach you how to work together.

Horses are not humans.
Horses are not dogs.

They do not express emotion the way humans and dogs do.

They are 1 ton accidents waiting to happen and without the right knowledge, (or the right attitude going at it) you AND your horse will get hurt.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

iDressage. you have had so many complications with this horse, training wise and her arthritis. she is young, and she is never going to be the preformer you want in a horse due to her arthritis. she physically is unable to, and id guarantee she is in pain which can cause she poor behavior. this is only going to escalate. your going to be seriously injured. or killed. IMO, i think selling her and finding a different horse would be in your best interest. 

and yes, she is a horse, not a dog. I agree with everything Cherie has to say.

the truth of the whole matter is...you need a trainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oh iDressage, I knew you were young and novice but this post confirms that to an extent that I am concerned for your safety and horses welfare. 

Get a trainer, or sell your horse and have lessons for a while. Right now, you are dangerously clueless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

iDressage said:


> I'm currently crying and somewhat miserable right now because I've been having a rough time with my horse. After moving to a new stable and getting bucked off (likely a spook) and kicked in the leg severely both in the first two weeks I was there, *ground manners and respect have obviously been an issue*. *She's always loved me*, but she also likes to push me around. *She's affectionate. She loves to hug, she sighs, she licks me and kisses me,* but when she *wants what she wants, she will push me around *to get it. *Usually I'm not that strict*, but tonight, I became really assertive.
> 
> I led her around, made sure she had ample space from me and was respecting my space, then I had her back up. I tried to wiggle the line to have her back up but she didn't get it, she thought that meant move forward, so I applied backward pressure. She pulled against it (*we did this probably hundreds of times*) and didn't listen -- it seemed like she understood and was trying to disobey, but maybe she didn't understand. *So I pushed hard, forced my entire body into her*, and had her move back. There were a couple points where I got* SO frustrated* that I even yelled at her a little bit, said NO, waved my arms at her (she almost reared up) and told her seriously to GET OUT OF MY SPACE. I felt so bad for getting mad at her (and not that any of you have to know this, but it's that time of the month, and for anyone who knows how easy it is to get ticked off... grrrr).
> 
> ...


Green is where you got it right; Red is where you got it wrong. Well, actually there's more too it, but generally you have the answers you need from other posters already, even if you don't want to hear it. :-(

No ground manners; lack of general respect
Be strict ALL THE TIME
Horses don't love people, ever
You're not stronger than she is - you need to be smarter
If something isn't working, change it up
Don't reward bad behavior
Check your emotions at the door

Other posters have knowledge of previous posts you have made about your situation and I respect them -- if they say you are in trouble, then you are in trouble. Get help or get rid of the horse and don't get another one until YOU are trained.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with the others that a trainer is in order. You are interpreting licking and a few others as signs of affection and they are not. Horses don't lick to express submission or affection. A dog licks to express submission. The fact that this horse has kicked you shows that she has no respect for you. 

You lost your temper its okay it happens. You have to do your best to stop yourself next time. When I start to feel myself loose my temper I stop and back off and that is hands down the hardest part of horse ownership. To stop when you feel like the horse is "winning" because you know if you continued you would sabotage yourself. That said, you have to set some ground rules.

You are probably not discipling enough or strongly. You are probably picking at this mare and not giving firm enough discipline. This is done inconsistently so the horse is confused. Is she supposed to approach or not? Can she kick you and get away with it? Is she supposed to follow closely today or at a distance?

Horses may or may not feel love. I love my horse but I don't think I can assume she loves me. My horse respects me and we have a relationship based on respect more than love which is much more important.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

I don't know, I like to believe my horse loves AND respects me. But maybe that's just for my own comfort. But that being said, they are in no way like dogs. 
And respect comes before love. Always. 
I'd invest in a trainer. I have one. And she's great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

iDressage,

I hope you won't be so upset by these comments that you'll turn away from your horse and what you can do to learn what needs to be learned. It is NOT impossible. I have seen quite a few persons who were not naturally assertive, and felt uncomfortable at it, become adept at it, and soon, they feel so much happier with their horses. Dont' give up hope . Where do you live, in general? maybe there's someone here who could help you, or know of a good trainer in your neighborhood.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Ha I laugh at what Tinyliny has said because I have had people who I work for tell me I need to be more assertive. So, Tinyliny could easily be talking to/at me. When working with horses they were like you need to be more assertive. There exact words were "get mad". I was also told to "relax" more when I was working. The goal is not be mean and nasty and totally snotty. The goal is to be balanced. You want to be fair. 

Its far easier to learn to be assertive than to learn to be soft in my opinion. Being a bit of a softie is good because it probably means you are giving your horse and other people a more than fair shake. Which means that you are more likely to give things a second chance. The world is a better place when softies are involved, they bring a level of compassion to it. You just have to learn when to be compassionate and when to be firm. Don't worry and don't be too hard on yourself. Tomorrow is a new day!


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi everyone, 

I'd like to thank all of you for giving me advice. For some of you, the advice was a bit harsher than I had hoped and I don't feel that based on the posts that I have online, you can really have a completely accurate view of the situation, but thank you nonetheless. 

I have been working with horses for years and I do know how to handle horses and put them in their place -- I'm not a novice handler, and I'm not an idiot with horses. I've dealt with groundwork issues before, and they did get better, but right now, a variety of issues (originally problems in the saddle, now obviously including things out of the saddle) have been a bit out of my reach, and I'm questioning what to do in this situation. Even with more experienced handlers, it isn't the first time my horse has acted up. She's bolted from the BM, my friend (an older, well-seasoned, tough, and extremely advanced and aggressive handler) got kicked in the finger while instigating her to turn around, etc. Yes, I know a lot of these issues occurred back when we first moved to the stable, but still, things have been a problem for me. I'm in high school, almost college, and I've still never competed -- it's been my dream to do that while I'm still in high school, especially with her, but I also don't know how reasonable of a goal it is...? Keep in mind, she isn't always disrespectful -- I'm not trying to make her sound like an evil horse, because she isn't. She has some issues, yes I admit that, but even after pushing her around some more today, she was respecting my space more to a degree, not walking into me, etc. These problems exist, but aren't at their peak 100% of the time. She's a challenge, but she isn't a "problem horse."


I am not in a horribly hazardous situation, but evidently there are various dangers and risks involved with any horse, and my horse's current lack of respect is obviously a huge factor. I have brought this horse, with the help of others, from a rescue who knows nothing to a beautiful strong and powerful mare, but obviously one who does not seem to have power completely in place. I am more confident that I wouldn't be having these issues on an older, more seasoned horse. The better part of me says to stick this out-- to keep working at it until I get it, to acknowledge the fact that I had just a bad day, and that I have to keep going, because I love my horse, whether or not horses return the feeling. The other part of me says the problems have occurred many times and I am being naïve and putting myself in a potentially dangerous situation without realizing it, and that maybe my horse would do better in the hands of a more experienced handler. 

Also, I have been working with a trainer, for my horse and myself. I've worked with three highly ranked professionals for the past two and a half-three years, another trainer before those three, and a children's trainer for the several years before that while I was getting my bearings. Honestly, I also feel that when I'm not riding, my horse gets more frivolous and less willing to listen to me. When I'm in charge in the saddle (she still does test me, which is a whole 'nother issue, by walking the opposite way or turning at random points in the arena -- WHICH I HAVE WORKED ON TONS, WITH MY TRAINER), her ground manners are practically always SIGNIFICANTLY better. But, we haven't ridden in weeks due to weather, and I guess that's what we get. 

I'm confused, struggling, and clearly not enjoying myself right now... and I'm just waiting/hoping for things to get better. I've been extremely patient, but I find this to be a relationship of peaks and valleys. It hasn't been consistent due to various things... her arthritis (which has not been a significant issue in the saddle this year), her behavioral issues, weather, switching stables. It just doesn't seem things are working in our favor. I'm trying SO HARD. SO HARD. She is such a huge part of my life and I think about her all the time. But, my heart is also breaking when I see what's happening.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm confused.

You say youve been working horses for years, then say youre not experienced enough for her.

you know youre putting yourself into a dangerous situation. and ask us advice. while also saying you dont want the hard truth...from experienced people....
you want the nice truth? truth isnt always nice.

what DO you want from this thread? everybody has given you the advice they think is safe and what would work best for you and your horse and you dont like what that advice is so you say its harsh?

like i said...confused.


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

If you have moral issues with slapping and/or disciplining a horse than you really shouldnt be handling them. Take a step back. Learn horse psychology. Understand basic training. Grow a pair and put those emotion on low. 

Never. Ever. Let a horse come into your space. You can love on them on your terms if my horse comes to me and pokes my pocket looking for a treat she is more likely to get a slap or backed up 10 feet. I will reward when I feel like it not when she asks. You need to do the same or sell your horse. Those are your options.

Going back to dogs as others have, say your dog bites you. Hard. Draws blood. Just for walking by too close or near its toy. Do you think that happened because you are a strong leader? Does that dog respect you? No. Your horse kicking you is the same thing. No respect and in your horse's eyes, you are lower. She HAS to take the role of leader because you left her without one. So now you own a 1000 pound animal that thinks it needs to control you.

I know this sounds harsh. I'm sure you are looking for support or a pat on the head saying it will be ok. But it can only get better if you take steps to be the leader your horse is looking for. Her touching you has to stop. I hug, kiss, pet and love on my horse all the time. the key word being 'I'. Not 'she'. 


Please get a trainer. You need one. You HAVE to learn pressure and release asap before you are both hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi, 
For clarification: 
Yes I have been working with horses for years. However, my horse has proved a challenge in ways that I have never dealt with among other horses, and things that an _experienced _handler would need to deal with. I'm not a _novice -- _I'm not a beginner horseperson, I definitely HAVE experience. But, I would not consider myself an "experienced" horseperson, one who knows the ropes and ways to solve all of the issues.

The problem is, I really am not convinced that I'm putting myself in a dangerous situation. If I were, then I probably would have solved this issue long ago. I think I'm either in denial about it, but I can't seem to convince myself.

And no, I need the advice, as harsh as it is. I'm just saying it wasn't an harsh as I had expected. I wasn't expecting to read some of the responses I received, but I'm not saying they weren't necessary or most thoughtful. I trust that the HF community wants what is best for me, as well as what is best for my horse. 

Really, more than anything, I need as many critiques based on my current situation that I can get, and choices for the plan of action to solving them. 

It would absolutely break my heart to give up my horse, but I'm unsure if whether or not we just had a bad day, or if I've gotten myself into an area that I cannot get out of alone. I'm trying to keep it tough, but also realistic. I don't know what I can handle and what I can't at this point, as, like I said, I'm dealing with things I haven't dealt with in my years of handling.

Also, I've never even explored the idea of ground manner training. Like I said, I've had hundreds and hundreds of lessons, and none of them have emphasized groundwork. We've worked on lunging a good deal, obviously riding the majority, as well as basic manners here and there (mounting block, bridling, etc.).


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

iDressage said:


> Hi,
> For clarification:
> Yes I have been working with horses for years. However, my horse has proved a challenge in ways that I have never dealt with among other horses, and things that an _experienced _handler would need to deal with. I'm not a _novice -- _I'm not a beginner horseperson, I definitely HAVE experience. But, I would not consider myself an "experienced" horseperson, one who knows the ropes and ways to solve all of the issues.
> 
> ...


i think you just explained yourself into needing another hand with this? am i right?

all these things you just layed out are things a Trainer would help you learn and deal with.

i really do hope it all turns out well with you and the mare. and i really do hope you get a trainer, or at least an experienced friend there to help you out.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Roperchick said:


> i think you just explained yourself into needing another hand with this? am i right?
> 
> all these things you just layed out are things a Trainer would help you learn and deal with.
> 
> i really do hope it all turns out well with you and the mare. and i really do hope you get a trainer, or at least an experienced friend there to help you out.


Just to clarify to the OP, a riding instructor is not necessary a trainer. 

Groundwork is a crucial aspect of working with a horse _*well *_and _*harmoniously*_.


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## Brendagun (Nov 17, 2012)

Please don't consider this harsh, I mean only to help. 

If I understand what you have described the situation to be, I see two options. One would be only interacting with her when there is a trainer present to help you control her and help you rise to the experienced rider that is needed to control her. This horse can be disciplined, as you have acknowledged, so the issue lies with you learning the correct cues and mannerisms. I'd suggest supervised interaction so as to make progress. I don't think you'll get very far in this situation without help. 

The other option is to admit that she is a more demanding horse and give her to a home that can fulfill that need. Find a more submissive horse. I understand that this is the less desirable option. Right now your horse is unhappy. She is trying to figure out who the leader is. She does not see you as the leader, so she has undertook the position, and you struggling with her is only causing distress. You say you love her, and while she cannot love you back (she can respect and trust), you can get her to a more advanticious situation.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

A person can have a lot experience with horses, in terms of spending time with them, and riding them, without really knowing how to handle them correctly. there are lots of people who really do not know how to handle their horses. they get by because either the horse is pretty easy going (as yours is not!), or they stay in the same place and do the same stuff , so they are pretty safe, or, they just get lucky, AND, they don't mind riding a horse, or handling a horse, that is only "with" them about 30% of the time. They have the "she's being good" VS "she's being bad" approach.

the good happens when the horse is happy to go along with the rider because it's more or less what the horse wants to do anyway, or it's a habit. The rider thinks SHE is making the horse obey, and then when things are bad, she blames the horse. Both times the horse was basically doing what he wanted to do.the bad can happen for all kinds of reasons. the rider thinks it's about the hrose's mood, or his background of abuse, or outside circumstances, and when things get "good" again, they are back to being in control of the horse. 

The truth is, _they never really were in control of the horse_, and as soon as the circumstances weren't aligned with the horse's will, then it became obvious. the horse is basically going along with the program, at best, and directing it , at worst.

the reason that I say that it is YOU who needs to learn a different tack to take is that only you can change the real relationship with this horse. 
Otherwise, you will always be on a rollercoaster of "she's good now" and I'm doing ok ,I don't need to change anything, VS, "now she's behaving badly and I feel awful".

It's not about her being "good" or "bad". it's about her being "with" you, and I question whether even when you think she has been "good", and with you, that she really is not.

And let me clarify, that I do not consider myself any kind of expert in horse handling. the advice I have is pretty much what I would give myself , and still do.
I am not sure if I'd feel confident taking on your mare all by myself. If I thought I could not win any "battle" I took on with her, I would bring in someone who I knew could win, and could teach me to do so.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

It sounds like your mare is definitely a challenge. Any horse who thinks kicking people is a valid option, as your girl has proven on more than one occasion she does, requires experienced, confident, and very consistent handling to once again become and stay an equine 'good citizen.' As opposed to a general danger and liability when some unsuspecting human tries to be friendly or work with her. 

If you are not confident and committed to resolving her behavior issue (as well as medical/pain components that might play into it), then you need to give her to someone who can, and who will, if you are lucky enough to find that someone. Unfortunately there are not too many horsewise people looking for potentially lame project horses. If this horse seriously injures someone, you cannot claim that it comes as a surprise, and that will be on your conscience too. 

If you want to commit to 'fixing' this horse, and can accept the risk, the responsibility, and the known limits she may have on her performance given arthritis at an early age, then get a good horse trainer and get going! Mind you, this is not a riding instructor, you need someone to train you to train your horse, not to train you to ride your horse. Work hand in hand with a trainer so you have backup when you hit a wall or a challenge. I would consider adding in some pain meds for a little while too- chronic pain makes everyone tougher to work with. 

But every day is a new day for you and your horse. You can walk in there tomorrow like you own her, the barn and every blade of grass in that place, and so long as you back it up in a clear, consistent way that make sense to a horse, they will accept that as the new world order in a remarkably short time. The closer you can be to perfectly consistent, fair and 100% firm in what behavior you expect, the quicker the horses will learn what you want/the new rules, the fewer times you'll have to re-educate them on the Rules Of Life, and the easier it will be for all involved. If you are going to keep this horse, for your safety and hers, please commit to retraining her and holding her to standards that include 'thou shalt not kick at a human on fear of death.'


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

If you're not ready to give up on the horse then please get a trainer, one that is experienced in dealing with a pushy/dominant horse. I will also say this after dealing with a dominant horse that turned outright aggressive (with previous owner): Do not peck at a horse, especially one like this. If you're going to get after her, GET AFTER HER. Not a little slap here and there, not just a little wiggle of the lead rope. You have to let her know you're in charge, that you mean it, and that she better behave. If you're going to make her back, make her back! Make that lead rope come alive! Make her think you're a force to be reckoned with. It's all or nothing with these type of horses (really any but more submissive horses are a little more forgiving). Be firm but fair. Pecking at a horse like this will turn to aggression. Find a trainer who can help you with timing and can show you the ropes.


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## TrailTraveler (Jan 4, 2014)

Let me see if I've got this straight, iDressage: As a novice teenager, you purchased a young mare from a rescue, and over the past three years, she has exhibited some aggressive behavioral issues -- not only with you, but with your instructor and a horsey friend, as well. 

You write that, "The problem is, I really am not convinced that I'm putting myself in a dangerous situation. If I were, then I probably would have solved this issue long ago. I think I'm either in denial about it, but I can't seem to convince myself."

BINGO. That IS the problem, honey! Everyone here is telling you that your mare's behavior is wholly unacceptable, bordering on dangerous; and you are denying it. Part of this denial, I suspect, is because your mare was a rescue and you have a misplaced sense of uber-compassion that isn't allowing you to see the situation clearly. As a seasoned animal rehabber -- I have been trained to work with my local Humane Society, and also fostered for a government-run animal care/control facility in Northern California in the early 2000s-- I understand the need to handle abused/neglected/unsocialized animals with care. But your mare's problem isn't that she doesn't trust humans. It's that she doesn't respect humans -- or have confidence in your ability to be an alpha/leader. (That lack of respect may, in fact, stem from the fact that she imprinted on humans and sees herself as equal.)

She needs to be taught respect. NOW. No more excuses. She's not a lap-dog. She's a thousand-pound animal who could inflict serious damage -- or even death, with one kick to your noggin. Remember that the next time she acts up.

Finally, even though you "love" her, you need to be mature enough to accept that you may not be good for one another. She needs a firmer hand, a solid leader; and you may not be the person to provide that for her. There's no shame in saying that you're not a good fit. But it would be a shame if your horse does some serious damage to you, and your parents force you to sell her quickly (at auction) -- or worse, euthanize her because she is deemed dangerous and incorrigible. I would hope that the rescue organization would take her back, but if the horse develops serious aggression issues, they may opt to euthanize her, as well.

Get professional help -- or get rid of her. Those are the two choices I see. Good luck.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like what Sharpie said about every day being a "new" day:

"If you want to commit to 'fixing' this horse, and can accept the risk, the responsibility, and the known limits she may have on her performance given arthritis at an early age, then get a good horse trainer and get going! Mind you, this is not a riding instructor, you need someone to train you to train your horse, not to train you to ride your horse. Work hand in hand with a trainer so you have backup when you hit a wall or a challenge. I would consider adding in some pain meds for a little while too- chronic pain makes everyone tougher to work with. 

But every day is a new day for you and your horse. You can walk in there tomorrow like you own her, the barn and every blade of grass in that place, and so long as you back it up in a clear, consistent way that make sense to a horse, they will accept that as the new world order in a remarkably short time. The closer you can be to perfectly consistent, fair and 100% firm in what behavior you expect, the quicker the horses will learn what you want/the new rules, the fewer times you'll have to re-educate them on the Rules Of Life, and the easier it will be for all involved. If you are going to keep this horse, for your safety and hers, please commit to retraining her and holding her to standards that include 'thou shalt not kick at a human on fear of death.' "


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

Okay, hold your horses y'all, seriously! I understand the need to be serious due to safety reasons, but you need to keep in mind that the OP is younger _*AND STILL LEARNING *_about _*life in general.*_ Which, is exactly why your points aren't getting across to her. Most of you are adults who have long experienced many "real world" experiences, especially with people. If you don't follow, please keep reading my advice to the OP. I think it might "click." 

OP:
You want to have a relationship with your horse. I get that. And sometimes, training a horse and getting to where we want to get is so frustrating. I'm going to go through this with you, and hopefully you will see things clearer, because right now, I think your perspective is clouded so much that you don't know quite how to go about this. 

Let's talk about respect and people. We all like to be respected by other people, generally speaking. We don't want to get hurt, and we want to have positive relationships. We want to feel worth something.

We also want to be liked on some level and accepted. We don't like to get mad at people, especially people we want to be accepted by. So, we have two choices when something happens that displeases us: Let it fly or confront the person. 

By letting it fly, you feel more and more frustrated and begin to feel some sort of dislike for the other person. We wonder why they won't respect us, and sometimes, we try again to gain their affection by ignoring their mistreatment and trying harder to please them. Doesn't work.

The other option is confronting the person and *setting some boundaries. *By setting boundaries, you are not allowing the other person to disrespect you. You are also setting the stage for a positive relationship. Even if the person is someone that is not likeable, they will understand that you will not tolerate them crossing the boundaries. You will gain your respect, and things will run smoother. If the person is likeable, you can still be friends with them and be respected.

Now, what does this have to do with horses? Let me tell you, it's very similar.

Would you want your best friend to take advantage of you and walk all over you? No, of course not. You need to set boundaries with your mare. No means no. Right now, she is showing you no respect. The licking, itching, kisses...you're reading the cues wrong. This is *disrespect *from horses. She's getting in your space because she knows she can push you around. 

As with a person that is blatantly disrespecting you, you have to get tough on all levels. When that mare itches, kisses, or licks, push her away. When she gets in your space, move her out. *Ask, tell, demand.* If she does something really naughty like kicking or biting, rip into her. Don't feel bad that you are scaring her or being mean - you are protecting yourself, and she NEEDS to know better. In fact, she very well may not better. And you have to show her that in absolutely no circumstances is that behavior allowed.

I disagree to some level on not getting emotional. I think emotions, especially anger, are good, as long as they are *CONTROLLED. *If your horse does something dangerous and you get mad and yank the lead and back it into a corner and really get "scary," many times the horse will never do that behavior again because it was associated with a negative experience. 

You also have to understand that horses can seriously injury you or kill you. Think of the horse as a kid. Would you tolerate a young kid doing something that is dangerous to himself or others. No. So don't let your horse do it, especially since a horse is a lot bigger than you and can hurt you far easier.

Once your horse understands your boundaries, you can stop being as tough with the horse, once you've asserted your role as leader. That doesn't mean you give in and let the horse walk all over you, it just means that you can be more affectionate and positive. This respect is what makes a real relationship. 

My horse never used to respect me, and I was so frustrated with him. But once I set boundaries and taught him to respect me, we've both worked so much better together, and I would never trade him off in a million years. 


I hope you understand where I'm coming from - I'm giving you the same answers as others, but in a way I think you'll understand. I was there once, so don't worry, you're not alone.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

OP

I have read, and replied to SO many of your threads.

You want to do right by the horse... SO LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU.

They are telling you this for your own safety and for the best results for the horse. Right now you are allowing her to get away with the behaviour, which is making her the horse that she is. And that is dangerous.

Your 'trainer' friend... you do not need to be aggressive. Quite the opposite. You need an assertive look out towards the horse, and measure out the discipline, or punishement, to what 'crime' is commited.

You seriously need to look through some of the groundwork threads that have been created in horse training if you are not willing to look in to a groundwork trainer who specialises.

Despite what you say, this IS a problem horse. Beyond all her issues, stop making excuses for her and fix her. It is your responsobility to make her a decent horse, not to pet her like a baby and let this bad attitude continue.

Firstly, you need to stay safe. Hard hat and good gloves. ALL THE TIME when handling her. If she is attempting to rear, or rearing, then she is halfway to landing near or on you already.

Secondly, buy a rope headcollar that has one string, not two or a thicker string across the nose, or one with knots in it, and get a long leadrope with a leather tip.

This horse has to learn to respect your space. No more kisses. No more licking. Get a dog if you want cuddles. She is WAY past a come to jesus session.

Instead of getting defensive and labelling all your experience, open your eyes and try to take in what the good people of this forum are telling you. She isn't any different to any other horse. Respect is respect, and you are making her dangerous.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Corazon Lock said:


> I disagree to some level on not getting emotional. I think emotions, especially anger, are good, as long as they are *CONTROLLED. *If your horse does something dangerous and you get mad and yank the lead and back it into a corner and really get "scary," many times the horse will never do that behavior again because it was associated with a negative experience. [/FONT][/COLOR]


I couldn't disagree with this any more if I tried.

The ONLY emotion that is useable around horses is good emotions. Anger, frustration, taking things personally, can and will lead to a worse situation. 

This is a teenager you're talking to. Someone who is going through one of the most emotional stages in their life. An you're telling her to control her anger? 

This girl is as confused as the horse. This horse is a product of her own confusion. I do not think she is well equipped to handle this horse based on everything she has said. I'm not going to sugar coat it because this is a dangerous situation. 

iDressage, bottom line is either you need a trainer or you need to sell her.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think we sometimes forget we weren't born knowing how to handle horses and especially horses with issues. In addition, a lot of riding instructors do only that, teach riding. They don't teach a thing about ground manners, what they are, how to get them, how to keep them and what an important role they play in our interaction with horses. 

My boarder, who is a young college kid in a doctoral program, bought a young weanling colt while still in college. IMO, first mistake but it's her money. Horse experience, nil. She rode old farm nags as a kid. Has no clue about training this weaner, who has now grown up to be a 2 year old with no manners. Well, he didn't have any until he came here 6 months ago. She unwittingly put him in a bad situation and he was almost starved to death. She was spending her time trying to make up for the abuse and feeling guilty, none of which was teaching him who the leader is. 

Fast forward to the first time he tried to walk over me, tried to bite me, tried to kick me. That poor boy had about 6 CTJ meetings in his first 3 days here. Not because I want to train her horse for her, or because I enjoy whipping on a horse, but because he was a serious safety problem. And don't think a disrespectful horse won't rub off on others, he will. 

The first time I went after her horse she sat down and cried like her heart was breaking, she was so afraid he'd hate her for bringing him here where he had to behave. I was flummoxed. It had been so long since I had dealt with a true novice handler that I had forgotten all the things that go through their heads and how much they romanticize their relationship with their horse. She absolutely couldn't understand that I was doing what his mama would have done had he treated mom this way. To show her some herd dynamics and horsey discipline, I put him in with a bred mare, because he was still intact. She saw how that mare schooled him and I didn't look so awful anymore. When she's on break we do ground training, so she'll learn what to do when he's an a$$. 

One day I came home and she was in total tears and thought he hated her. I asked why, and she said, "Because he won't let me catch him and pet him.". I explained that horses don't think that way and that he was testing her leadership and his place in the pecking order. We went back outside and I showed her how to catch him and we did some ground work. He was more respectful, and happier because he got his place explained to him, and she left happy. 

Now, go forward to the time of gelding. He's out in the pasture with my stallion and a bred mare and a yearling gelding, so he didn't "need" to be gelded, except he's not stallion material and if she can't handle him as a baby how in the world will she handle him as a full grown hormonal stallion? She was afraid he was going to hate her for gelding him. I had to explain that horses don't have all their self esteem in their parts and that he would be happier when he was able to go anywhere with anyone. She's now thrilled with her gelding and I don't think we'll ever have that issue again, she's seen a dramatic difference in her boy. 

Because she's 25 and in a doctorate program, I have taken it on myself to put the ground manners and fear of God in this gelding. Now is not really the time for me to try to teach her and to expect her to be consistent with him. Right now, she is only able to come out sometimes once a month just to pet on him. I need to have him safe for me to handle and because I like her and don't want her killed, safe for her to handle. Later, when she's graduated, if she wants to she can help me school a young one of mine and she can learn all about how to teach manners to a horse. 

Good for you, OP, if you managed to get through this whole novel. My point is, you still have a lot to learn. Either because of school or other emotional issues, you're not ready to recognize that this horse can kill you in a hot second, never meaning to, and wouldn't lose an hour's sleep over it. You need someone to get her in hand, bring her back to a safe, sensible mare that anyone can handle and then, when you're more receptive, teach YOU what you need to do to maintain her respect. Find someone to train this mare on the ground for you and keep you safe.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

iDressage said:


> The problem is, I really am not convinced that I'm putting myself in a dangerous situation. If I were, then I probably would have solved this issue long ago. I think I'm either in denial about it, but I can't seem to convince myself.


You are in denial. 

I sure hope that you getting taken to the emergency room isn't the thing that has to make you come to your senses. 

Your horse has:
--bucked you off
--kicked you in the leg
--pushes you around
--licks you (to me, that's just a small step away from biting)
--has threatened to rear at you
--doesn't listen to you when you ride (ex: turning when SHE wants to)
--has bolted from your BM
--has kicked a friend in the finger
And I'll stop the list there. 
*
Your horse is dangerous. Period.*

You are simply lucky that she hasn't kicked you in the head and killed you. Or reared up and struck you with her front legs. 

You are in over your head with a dangerous horse. 



iDressage said:


> Also, I've never even explored the idea of ground manner training. Like I said, I've had hundreds and hundreds of lessons, and none of them have emphasized groundwork.


This horse needs to learn to respect people on the ground. 

I highly suggest you turn her over to someone who is experienced with dealing with aggressive and dangerous horses. Let that person get her straightened out, and then they can give you supervised ground lessons with your horse so you can learn how to correctly deal with her.

Your horse doesn't love you. Your horse doesn't sit around all day wondering when you are going to show up. She doesn't wonder how your day at school went. She doesn't think about how upset you may be. Yes, some horses are friendlier than others, but a horse is a horse. They learn to respect their LEADER and their BOSS. If they don't have respect for you, then they just treat you like one of the other horses lower on the totem pole than them. 


I was in denial with one of my horses too, a couple years ago. Until he kicked me in the thigh (lucky he didn't shatter my hip) and sent me flying about 15 feet.

Get out of denial. Your horse is dangerous and since you don't know how to properly handle her, you are putting yourself (and others who handle her) in danger.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

All I can add is that this horse is never going to be able to perform at the level you want because of the limitations from her health issues and she doesn't have the right personality and nature for someone like you - there are horses out there that aren't challenging you every inch of the way, they have calm placid natures and the ability to do the level of dressage you're interested in
Do yourself and the horse a favour and sell her ASAP


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

iDressage,

First, I would like to compliment you on writing posts that are not just one grotesque wall of text. I can read yours through and through. So thank you!

Second, I know you are having a hard time accepting the harshness of the posts. So far you have shown a great amount of grace in trying to accept what people are saying. You are more mature than you realize.

Now, I'm going to veer this post off into another direction than the 'you need a trainer' simply because you have shown grace. It might get long winded, so please, please hang in there with me.

Yes, you do have a difficult mare. And yes you need a trainer and not just a riding coach. With that said, I believe some people and some animals (usually the difficult ones) come into our lives for a reason.

This difficult mare can really teach you about horses, heck life in general too, if you open your mind, your spirit, your way of thinking. She will teach you how to be calmly assertive, which will serve you well for the rest of your life. She will teach you how to 'read' a situation, another good tool to have in your life's tool box. You will gain confidence in yourself and how to handle situations. And she will teach you to be a better rider; when you are more assertive and confident on the ground, you will be that way in the saddle and in life!

Lastly she will teach you to be a better listener.

I was having a dressage lesson this past year and my horse was not listening to me, and I was so ****ed frustrated that I yanked him around a wee bit. The conversation with my coach went something like this:

coach: "What is the #@$% matter with you?"
me: "he's not listening to me!"
coach: "Are you listening to him?"

Bam. Did that stop me in my tracks. I just sat there staring at the tips of his ears feeling stupid for not feeling my horse.

Listen to the people here and your mare.

Listen without ego.

Listen without emotion.

Listen with your soul.

Listen with your eyes as you watch your mare, and a trainer working your mare.

Whether you want to work with horses as a profession, or just have them in your life throughout your life, this mare will TEACH YOU mucho, if you let her.

Be careful in the process.

You will fall on your knees.

You will fly high.

It is your journey; enjoy it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-what I have to say basically echoes what everyone else has already. I am just going to add, that you are still in high school. You may think you are really experienced, but..guess what? You have a lot to learn, and this mare is a prime example. There will ALWAYS be another one out there to teach you something new. The key is to know when you are in over your head, and have someone to help you get through it safely..and come out the other side with both you and the horse the better for it. IMO there have been way too many horses spoiled by teenage girls who just want their horse to "love" them. It is a recipe for disaster.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_coach: "Are you listening to him?"

Bam. Did that stop me in my tracks. I just sat there staring at the tips of his ears feeling stupid for not feeling my horse._"

Hmmm...

Horse is reluctant to trot? I'll consider my riding and tack, while keeping in mind my HORSE may be the problem. 

Horse wants to kick me? 

I have no interest in my horse's thoughts, apart from having her/him thinking about deep and sincere repentance! Make sure the "_flying high_" isn't the result of a kick from a horse.

If one of our geldings was stupid enough to kick at lead mare Mia, Mia would not ask, "Was I listening to my geldings?" There would be a major league butt whoopin', and Mia would not be on the receiving end.

And if Mia wants a drink of water, she doesn't ask the geldings if they are finished, or if there is room for them both to drink. 

"_when she wants what she wants, she will push me around to get it_"

Yep. That is pretty much how Mia treats her subordinates. Horses are not big on equality, fair play, etc. It seems the OP can either learn to be a very submissive horse (since a 100-200 lbs horse would be VERY submissive to a 1200 lb horse), OR learn to change things around. But if a horse already considers you to be the subordinate, swapping places will probably require a trainer to show you how. Otherwise you might find the horse will do whatever it takes to keep you in your place - and they have a lot more muscle than we do. :?


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi everyone!!! 

First of all I want to thank you each for your advice. At this point I have stopped seeing it all as harsh and instead seeing it as the truth that I needed to hear. 

I'm starting off by taking it slow and considering my options. At least now when the weather is cold and I don't really have the option of riding, I can figure things out without being confused by the saddle. 

My opinion could change but I think the best option right now for me would be to sell her. It absolutely breaks my heart, but even when I am not emotional, I admit, I still don't know how to control her due to her challenges. 

Plus, I want to pursue showing and as selfish as it sounds, I want to have the same sort of experience that my friends are having as riders... Travel shows, competition, etc. and I only have a couple more years as a youth rider to do it. 

I tried to clear my mind and go to the stable again tonight to see if maybe last night was a rough night, but no. I watched a great YouTube video last night about ground manners and asking your horse to back up by shaking the lead and using a whip for reinforcement. Well I tried it tonight... I started by rubbing the whip all over her and moving it near her face and everything, so she was comfortable with it. I shook the lead -- she moved forward instead. Then I used the whip to tap her chest and back her up, and she decided she would then move into me and towards me. She was nervous and confused, because she didn't understand or didn't want to listen? 

So, I took the first step by speaking with my family and having everyone understand the situation. I also texted my old BO and trainer (two people) to see if they have any horses for sale..... 

Yes I am heartbroken. Yes I am in denial. But yes, I want what is best for her and to stay safe. Feel free to keep the advice coming. Thank you


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Glad you tried something different. 

Don't get discouraged that she seemed confused. Don't feel sorry for her. This is a new you. She will learn and adapt with consistent handling.

She will not hold a grudge or anything.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I hope you can learn to deal with your horses challenges - a lot of bad behavior does come from confusion, horses handle that in different ways and for some its by becoming confrontational towards the human
All that aside - this horse is never going to be your dressage prospect and its not fair to ask her to do more than she's able to deal with. For all you know that might be contributing to her crankiness


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

iDressage said:


> Hi everyone!!!
> 
> I shook the lead -- she moved forward instead. Then I used the whip to tap her chest and back her up, and she decided she would then move into me and towards me. She was nervous and confused, because she didn't understand or didn't want to listen?


She's challenging you by stepping forward, into you. Remember that "backing down" is a submissive act and one she will not perform willingly at first. When she steps forward, you have to UP your energy by shaking more vigorously on the lead, leaning into her, and tapping with the whip and you get more assertive with the whip as needed. Rarely will you have to actually really whip her back off of you, normally, a good solid whack in the middle of her chest will get the message across. When I do that, I tap tap tap the whip on the ground, not raising the tip very high to begin. If that's not enough, and in the beginning it probably won't be, I start putting more energy into the whip and raising the tip higher until I'm tapping between her front legs, all the while, shaking that lead rope vigorously. Instead of shaking back and forth or side to side on it, try up and down with it too, so it's undulating up and down like a sea serpent. Get your energy HIGH with her the first time or 2, and then after that you go from zero to 60 very quickly. By the 3rd time we're doing the exercise, if my horse isn't moving with a tap on the ground, then I bring that whip up quick and hard a time or 2, that will usually give them the message. Remind her who the predator is in this relationship. If she even gives a tiny step back, stop and reward her a bunch. Then pet her and let her think a minute, and repeat. Do it every single day and pretty soon she won't be challenging you. 

The main thing you don't do is, move YOUR feet. In a horsey challenge, the first one to move his feet loses. So, shake the lead, whack her with the whip, lean into her, but don't move your feet.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Bums, he is never reluctant to trot, canter, and move out. Not the issue.

I like the conversation between me and my Arab, especially on the trail. He has kept us out of trouble a time or two.

I don't want a machine, I want a partner. Who is smart enough to know the final decision will always be mine. If I didn't want that I would ride dirt bikes.

The whole point of my post was this mare was screaming to the op and was not being listened to. If you don't listen you don't learn, and you can get hurt.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when backing up the mare, the OP did the line shake /wiggle thing. horse responded by moving forward. that can be horse pushing on the owner, or can be confusion about how to respond. There's some difference between a horse stepping toward the handler just to get away from the shaking on the lead, 
and a horse stepping forward ONTO the handler to try and move the handler away. the reaction might be a bit different from the handler, as you need to cut short any idea of aggression on the horse's part, while if it's just confusion, you might be a little more patient , at first, in getting the horse to think "back", instead of the mistaken direction he chose.


either way, clarity is king. you remember what you are asking, stay focussed on that, and don't be dissuaded by a horse that tries this or that else, that makes incorrect, but not necessarily malavalent , choices. you stay in there with your "ask" and look for his "try", and reward that, and keep expecting better , as clarity lads to understanding.

NONE of that can happen with out the OP having that clarity, and that is where a trainer in ground work can really, really help her.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

I'm really confused because I don't know if I am giving up too easily... I don't know if I am giving up and not trying hard enough or if it's really time to let her go.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

iDressage said:


> I'm really confused because I don't know if I am giving up too easily... I don't know if I am giving up and not trying hard enough or if it's really time to let her go.


When a horse has you confused, that's when it's good to get an opinion from an objective person.

But I think you've had that in the past, haven't you?

That said, based on your habit of treating this one like a well-trained pet and based on your strong emotional needs that you try to get her to fulfill, you are giving up too soon. You only tried one evening! One evening! 

You've been putting up with being pushed around by this mare for a long time. It's going to take a while to undo what you've taught her is okay.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The whole point of my post was this mare was screaming to the op and was not being listened to._"

Well, yes...as in screaming, "I'm the Boss!!!" But THAT is not a message I have any intention of listening to, other than to reply, "NO YOU ARE NOT!"

If my horse is confused or possibly in pain, I'll listen. If my horse is trying to take over, I'm not going to hear her out. Unlike a dirt bike, a horse can decide to teach you a lesson you are not built to learn.

Horses normally don't start out by kicking. They act up in other ways, and when not corrected, they decide to take over. The best option is to be watching for the small things, and correct it then. Otherwise you set up a fight between yourself and an animal more powerful than you...and if you are not prepared in advance to win that one, you will be in deep doo-doo.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

iDressage said:


> I'm really confused because I don't know if I am giving up too easily... I don't know if I am giving up and not trying hard enough or if it's really time to let her go.



that could be confusing. I still think you should seek out someone to help with ground handling skills. even if you find she is too much for you, or that her arthritis makes her not your ideal future horse, you would have not wasted the time or money because you would be learning . 

I take every opportunity to do ground work with ANY horse, if I think I can manage. I know i'll learn something that will come in later. I usually can feel pretty quickly whether the horse needs someone better than me, or if I can muddle through without getting hurt. of course, a better trainer would get better results, but, we are learning, so we just have to use our horses a bit as our "guinea pigs", and they have to manage as best they can. Luckily, they are masters at that.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

At this point, I'm considering all my options, but before I give up completely, where can I find a groundwork trainer that can help me with her?

And the thing is, I don't know if she's still too much for me, or if I just need professional assistance. I almost feel like I've completely ruined our relationship, and not sure if I can get it back?


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

iDressage said:


> Hi everyone!!!
> First of all I want to thank you each for your advice. At this point I have stopped seeing it all as harsh and instead seeing it as the truth that I needed to hear. ...
> 
> My opinion could change but I think the best option right now for me would be to sell her. It absolutely breaks my heart, but even when I am not emotional, I admit, I still don't know how to control her due to her challenges.
> ...


I think you are being very thoughtful and acknowledge that that can be very difficult and painful. I think selling her is a very valid option that is probably the best choice for both her, so she gets the trainer she needs to become a safe horse, and for you to stay safe and have a little more sunshine and a little less heartache in your life. There is something to be said for sticking with something. There is something even more in knowing when to call it off. 

Many, many, many horsepeople have been through tough horses, and what I hear time and again when they finally decide that something isn't going to work out and sell/trade/switch horses is that they should have done it sooner. Especially when they've waited until they did wind up injured and their confidence shattered. I've said it before and I will again: Life is too short to ride a horse you don't like. 

Not that you don't love this horse or haven't tried, but horses should be fun. They should bring a smile to your face and have you eager to get to the barn. If that isn't happening, then something needs to change. There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking for and getting a horse that matches what you want both in temperament and performance ability.

If you do want to try with the help of a trainer, you can. As I said before, each day is a new day and a new chance. Horses don't hold grudges. But she still won't be your show prospect. Do you want a challenge and work everyday, or maybe a different horse that you can relax and enjoy yourself a bit more? Neither is wrong, but be honest with yourself.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I realize horses don't start out screaming. It is usually a whisper. The OP has missed it. And I believe she realizes it. So she is learning.

I believe at first there is a possibility the mare in question was confused. She is not now. She knows now she is the boss.

A badly ridden dirt bike can be deadly as well.

I still prefer to let my horse be boss at times. He has kept us from being bogged down, being sweep down a swollen river, and yellow jackets. Was he disobedient? Arguably, yes. But it was for the good.

Yet he doesn't kick, strike out, rear, buck, bolt, balk. He rides in a bosal as well as a bit. He rides with contact or loose rein. He is a nice thinking, intelligent horse. And I let him think things through.

Horses are a learning experience. Your experience(s) is yours, mine are mine, and the OP's will be hers. Her biggest accomplishment and her saving grace is she has opened herself up to criticism, which will help her grow.

She's listening. Which was the whole point of my original post.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You have to keep in mind, you own a horse and ride because....? Well, for me, it's enjoyment, first and foremost, face it, my nags cost me mucho dinero, if I didn't enjoy it and was sitting around crying out of frustration, I would punt riding and horses. I think you need a horse and some instruction where riding is fun and you get butterflies in your stomach thinking back to the last time you competed, rode or took a lesson. I do, and I have been at this horse "thing" for over 40 years.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

This advice has been extremely helpful, so thanks to all. 
I'm still back and forth, and I don't honestly feel like I'm emotionally ready to sell her -- not that I ever will be -- and I still feel like I have this emotional connection to her that I never want to rid. 

My very experienced horse friend (an older girl who is a tough handler, has a tough horse, has worked at numerous riding facilities, competes, a.k.a the girl who had her finger broken by my horse) is coming tomorrow afternoon to come help me and try to figure things out, and she also has various groundwork trainers she knows and is going to work something out for me. 

In addition (which this may or may not fall through), I'm going to see a horse I've known for a year and rode once last year (great ride, great horse) that the owner said she'd consider selling him to me.

I'm not throwing in the towel right now. I'm going to see if I can figure this out with the advice of my experienced friend and her trainers, and asking her reasonably what she thinks I should do. I also think I need to talk to my riding instructor about all of this, who has trained my horse for the past year, and let me know my thoughts and concerns.

Again, thank you for all of your advice. This is emotionally grueling and an absolutely terrible and heart-wrenching experience to be going through. I just can't wait for the calm after the storm.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

OP, I think that when you look for a trainer. You need to look less for a instructor and more of a horse trainer. I would go at it like you are looking to get a "tune up" or finishing work done on your horse. Find a trainer that is capable of that and make sure they are willing to work WITH YOU. You are basically sending your horse and yourself to training. 

I think the idea of rehoming this horse has merit. Not because the horse is to much for you. I believe you are very capable of learning to work with this horse with an appropriate trainer. I am not sure that this horse even 100% perfect manners is going to be physically able to give you what you want out of a horse ownership experience. I am not a fan of showing and don't see much to be lost in it. That said, I have gone to shows. If showing is something you want to do and is a priority than you need to consult a veterinarian and ask if this horse was perfectly behaved would she be sound enough to show. If the answer is "no" or "maybe" or even "for a few years" than she is not the right horse for you regardless of training. 

I am also flat out confused by the emotional/spiritual slant folks have mentioned. I have a stubborn mare who has saved my butt a time or two. She needs to be convinced that my idea is her idea (usually this just means me being more stubborn than her). We have as close to a partnership as I am probably going to have with a horse. She has stopped on the trail and I have listened, because when you have a horse that goes down a trail 10 times without a problem and on the 11th she stops than it merits listening. That said, this mare has earned that "trust" and the other green horse that stops/refuses every 3 rides in the same area does not get that trust. The OP's horse has not earned that trust in my opinion. I regard my mare as honest with me (due to a layer of understanding between the two of us regarding who wears the pants in our partnership) I don't regard the OP's horse as honest at this time.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_She has stopped on the trail and I have listened, because when you have a horse that goes down a trail 10 times without a problem and on the 11th she stops than it merits listening._"

So has Mia. The difference is that Mia wouldn't think of kicking a person. She'll stand still when I pull cactus spines out of her rump. She & I have been together for 5+ years, and I've never seen her act dominate toward me. If she is acting scared, she is scared...and I need to understand and work with her fears.

But if she started kicking at me, or biting, or even pulling her foot out of my hand when I'm cleaning her feet, I wouldn't feel very understanding. She will test a rider, but only to see if they are as serious about the ride as she is. If the answer is yes, she's a pretty willing horse. Or too scared about something, even if I can't see it. But after 5+ years, I trust her good will completely. She's proven herself. 

Still, when she knocked over the wheelbarrow of horse poop the other day, I shook the poop scoop above my head and ran at her shouting, "*Booga! Booga! Booga!*" She sprinted to the far side of the corral, and a few minutes later I brought her some hay and we were friends again. 

Horses don't hold grudges, not that I've seen. They do need to know who is in charge.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

now, I'm going to tease you a bit, Bob, but did you find that "Booga Booga Booga " in Littenauer's book?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ It more likely came from an old Bob Hope movie...maybe one of the "Road" pictures...:lol:


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

So basically here's my current plan of action. This is obviously subject to change. 

I'm going to go to the stable tomorrow, and I'll update everyone of how that goes and what my friend seems to think. She is an extremely experienced handler and while she isn't a trainer, she is helping me get on the track to one and know how serious my problem is (she already had a Come to Jesus session with my mare once before, so I wouldn't be surprised if she has another...). 

I'm planning on riding another horse that my old BO is selling on Saturday, so I can get a better feel for that and figure out what I want as well.

My trainer and vet both have emphasized that my horse's arthritis is not serious and that it is does not have any effect on her ability to ride. She gets a little stiff here and there, but she works through it easily and is now on a glucosamine supplement for it. 

I think what we're going to do is go through the month of February, try to build up our relationship, and see how we feel. If it's still this bad a month from now, then we have to seriously consider other options.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Glad youre getting some friendly assistqnce. Also glad youre not giving up.
My old mare had NUMEROUS health problems we had to work with and shes still one of the best kids horses ive ever had. 

Just stick with it, build up your confidence and your mares confidence IN YOU and I think yall can prosper.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

iDressage said:


> So basically here's my current plan of action. This is obviously subject to change.
> 
> I'm going to go to the stable tomorrow, and I'll update everyone of how that goes and what my friend seems to think. She is an extremely experienced handler and while she isn't a trainer, she is helping me get on the track to one and know how serious my problem is (she already had a Come to Jesus session with my mare once before, so I wouldn't be surprised if she has another...).
> 
> ...


Thought I'd just add that arthritis is progressive. It will get worse. Believe me. I'm having to put down my gelding due to arthritis (it gets to a point to where they're in so much pain it's cruel to let them go on like that), he can barely get up anymore. He is only 18 also, and his arthritis started at 15. I could only imagine how young he would have to be put down at if he had gotten arthritis at 7 (you mentioned it in another thread). He got injections as soon as it showed up and was on a joint supplement his whole life. Adequan helped at first, then it got too bad. So I would consider this in your decision also. I'm not saying just sell her because she won't be able to show. But keep the arthritis in mind when you make your decision. Although I do think this will be a good learning experience for you and that a good trainer will help you turn the situation around. And teach you valuable skills at the same time. Even if you do sell her for a horse that is sounder and able to compete, she will have helped you become a better horse person, even if it had to be through the circumstances it is.


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

iDressage said:


> This advice has been extremely helpful, so thanks to all.
> I'm still back and forth, and I don't honestly feel like I'm emotionally ready to sell her -- not that I ever will be -- and I still feel like I have this emotional connection to her that I never want to rid.
> 
> My very experienced horse friend (an older girl who is a tough handler, has a tough horse, has worked at numerous riding facilities, competes, a.k.a the girl who had her finger broken by my horse) is coming tomorrow afternoon to come help me and try to figure things out, and she also has various groundwork trainers she knows and is going to work something out for me.
> ...


WOW!!! You have a pretty great back bone and handled this situation stunningly on this post. Kudos!!! I love your passion and will power to figure this one out and take the harsh criticism. 

From what I see it will be tough. You have a sweet heart and love the horse and yet intellect to try to think through to the right choice. I think your mind and heart will continue to war with you. Love who you are and prepare yourself for this battle. Keep gaining more knowledge.

Knowing you have a heart for the horse, will have a hard time selling her if need be, and this is an emotional challenge because you strongly do not want to give up after all the hard work.

First off remember what you have learned and give kudos as you figure this out. Second, balance the emotions with the mind and good solid advice. I like how you ask for it.

Don't sell yourself short on time figuring out this horse too far into it. Hook up with a trainer, those who know you and your horse, ask them to ignore your emotions and give you blunt honest opinions. Put in the time now.... with advanced knowledgeable people. Gain knowledge from and with pros and seriously take to heart people around you and what they say. People that have the knowledge part down and can give advice to you with pure and experienced horse knowledge.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

After talking to some more people and gaining some perspective after a night of rest, I've realized this isn't something I'm going to give up on. I love her, and I am determined to do what is best for her. I know that the relationship can be strengthened and mended, especially because she is a horse and doesn't think in the same "relationship terms" that humans do. I'm going to speak to my trainer, maybe speak with my vet if necessary, and get a better understanding of how serious the situation is. I'll be sure to update everyone today. But I don't want to throw in the towel just yet... if I ever even do throw it in.


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

iDressage said:


> After talking to some more people and gaining some perspective after a night of rest, I've realized this isn't something I'm going to give up on. I love her, and I am determined to do what is best for her. I know that the relationship can be strengthened and mended, especially because she is a horse and doesn't think in the same "relationship terms" that humans do. I'm going to speak to my trainer, maybe speak with my vet if necessary, and get a better understanding of how serious the situation is. I'll be sure to update everyone today. But I don't want to throw in the towel just yet... if I ever even do throw it in.



Good on you  

You shouldn't give up, especially when seeking advice and guidance. I remember getting kicked in the side/hand one time, I was heartbroken. How could a horse that I loved and cared for, KICK me? I felt betrayed, but I was like 10... So needless to say I was confused. Then again I was in the pasture "playing" with her, so she treated me like a horse. My own darned fault for forcing what I thought was emotion into her. She was fired up and considered me a pasture mate when I was running around with her. Doh! 

Good luck, I hope your trail smooths out


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

iDressage said:


> Plus, I want to pursue showing and as selfish as it sounds, I want to have the same sort of experience that my friends are having as riders... Travel shows, competition, etc. and I only have a couple more years as a youth rider to do it.


That doesn't sound selfish at all to me.

Why do you own a horse? What do YOU want to accomplish? What are YOUR goals?

You need to put yourself into a situation that is going to allow you to achieve those dreams and goals. Maybe this horse is the one for you, but I'm getting the feeling that she is not. I agree with Sully that arthritis is progressive and it will get worse. If your horse's arthritis gets worse, is that going to allow you to achieve your dreams and goals? If you constantly struggle with her dominance, is that going to allow you to achieve your dreams and goals?

Obviously we can't make that decision for you. I think it is wise what you have planned out. 

Go and look at other horses. See what getting a different horse could offer you. See how a healthy and well-behaved horse could help you achieve your dreams and goals of showing. 

Have your friend help you for the time being but certainly try to find a ground work trainer. This can help you decide if you will be capable of fixing your horse's DANGEROUS behavior. To be quite honest though, I am doubting you. And I don't mean that in a mean way, but I mean that in terms of thinking about your _safety_. I suspect your timing is off (when you gave us the example of trying to ask her to back up with a jiggle of the leadrope) and I suspect you lack the confidence to show her that you are the leader. My assumptions, anyway, based on what you have typed and without seeing you in person. Again, just keeping your safety in mind here. There is absolutely NO SHAME in throwing in the towel. None at all.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think there is any shame in selling a horse that you are not enjoying. You should look forward to going to the barn not dread it. I think you would be happier with a quiet horse that you could enjoy. Since this horse is a rescue you really don't know his history. Perhaps he was abused by his former owner. Even if he is trained by an expert that training has to be kept up or he will fall into his former bad habits. I would sell or trade this horse before you get hurt!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Despite what the animal right nuts try to tell people:

You are not obligated morally or any other way to keep a horse that does not work out or fit for you.

This is a horse. This is not like adopting a child. You can take a horse that does not 'fit' you back to the rescue organization, to a sale or sell it privately. You OWN it. You gave it a chance. It is unsound and unsuitable. It is a money pit and the source of little enjoyment.

You can 'love' a suitable horse just as much -- probably more.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I want to share that I recently sold a horse and it was because he was a horse that needed more assertive handling than his rider wanted to do. 

She now has a horse that shares her laid back view on life. She enjoys handling this mare much more and rides more often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

waresbear said:


> You have to keep in mind, you own a horse and ride because....? Well, for me, it's enjoyment, first and foremost, face it, my nags cost me mucho dinero, if I didn't enjoy it and was sitting around crying out of frustration, I would punt riding and horses. I think you need a horse and some instruction where riding is fun and you get butterflies in your stomach thinking back to the last time you competed, rode or took a lesson. I do, and I have been at this horse "thing" for over 40 years.



I so agree with this and I was almost to that point with my last horse. I had a lot of the same issues as the OP. He kicked me, bit me, etc. I had trainers help me and a lot of it came down to just him and I. He was fine with other people and honestly I was afraid of him at times. I didn't enjoy him at all any more and didn't look forward to going to the barn. I loved him, I had him since he was 15 months (he will be 6 this April). It was the hardest decision but the best one I ever made. I sold him to a lady that does eventing and I fell in love with a great natured Morgan who has awesome ground manners and if he steps outta line I am not afraid to discipline. I now am loving riding and going to the barn again.


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi everyone!
So I sort of put this thread in the past and hadn't thought much about it, but I figured for the sake of updating I'd let you all know my current situation. 

We were just having a _bad week, _and yes, there was some issues that needed to be worked out and firmness needed to be put in place, but I overreacted to a lot of these issues and made my horse sound like she was a problem when really, she's just a horse. She has her days, her ups and downs, as we all do. Instead of focusing on all of the good she does, the respect she has, day in and day out, I chose to focus on the few negative things that had been slightly over-exaggerated because of a bad week, and my feelings made them sound a lot worse. 

After some more evaluation, we realized that the lack of riding and lack of trust (not that she doesn't trust me at all - but that we need to work on her trusting me more) both contributed to this. Since then, we've gone on several walks around the property (not just handwalking but walks into unfamiliar locations and whatnot) to get more comfortable, as well as daily handwalking and doing regular activities that keep us doing well together. 

I'm not giving up on this horse, regardless of her limits and occasional mistakes. I have my own limits, and I sure as heck make my own mistakes. I know my horse more than anyone else does, and I know what she is capable of and what kind of horse she tries to be.

So, thanks for all the advice. I can officially unsubscribe, as it is no longer a problem to me.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I am glad you have had the time to reflect on her behavior, and your own.

However, I would still seriously recommend you have a trainer teach you both for a while. The horse, as has been described, is a particularly dominant creature. You need to learn how to deal with situations when she tries it with you, and how to try and prevent them in the first place. You will both have a much happier working relationship.

Not giving up is a great thing to write down in words, but give yourselves the best opportunity to keep going forward and not have another melt down!


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I am going to address my main peeve first.

QUIT the WWJJWHACK method of trying to make your horse move. Singlehandedly that has to be the stupidest thing that anyone has ever suggested doing.

Backing or moving a horse needs to be concise and clear and calm, and that does not describe standing around wiggling a rope like you are trying to entice a cat to play.

Use your hand on nose to move horse back LIGHTLY, in same area as noseband of halter should rest....feather touch at first and a quiet "back up" to make horse step back, if horse resists, increase pressure a teensy bit, at same time you tip nose to chest...LIGHTLY...the instant you feel horse shift weight back to hind, take pressure off somewhat, and say "back" again. Get one step or two, release. Couple of pats, and no baby talk.

IF horse resists further, then rock nose to chest and back and I am NOT talking about making horse touch chest with nose, in case someone reading this is literal minded, but merely you are tipping nose towards chest.

This not only sets horse up to move off of front end from ground, but helps under saddle training too. And eventually, and won't take long, horse will move back if you say back, or even move into space with intent in your mind to back it.

And when moving from side to side, keep all actions as light as possible. Quiet voice and quiet hands.

But the WWJJWHACK method? Is confusing and ignorant to boot.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

There are two things you need to remember:

First, trust comes FROM respect -- not the other way around.

Always remember that the worst behavior you accept is the best behavior you have any right to expect. You can rationalize it any way you want to, but at the end of the day, THIS IS ALWAYS A FACT. Aggression is ALWAYS an act of disrespect. 

Good luck. You may need it.


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