# I feel like my riding is a hot mess.



## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

First of all, one hour group lessons for 12 months isn't much !! Add to that a different horse every lesson, and some of them not listening to cues,,,equals frustration, no wonder you're feeling frustrated. If it's not an option at that barn, is there another that allows private lessons and can provide you the same horse at least some of the time ? 

What I've learned that helps when a horse won't move off my leg (not legs as in go, but leg as in a lateral move as in getting too close to other horses or cutting corners, or just leaking out of the straight path that I want) is to lift the rein opposite of the way I want him to move. I learned this technique from a Julie Goodnight video and it's worked for me. Lift,up-down-up-down in conjunction to my leg on and my weight slightly shifted in the saddle to the side that I want him to go toward. keep the rein close to or even touching his neck, but don't let your hand go across midline --its not a neck reining move. It has worked for me without requiring 'teaching', and could be subtle enough that the instructor doesn't notice or scold you for it (not that they should,,,but .... ) Re: the weight shift---while standing with equal weight on each foot, very slightly move your shoulders over in one direction and notice how much you feel the weight change in that foot. It does the same thing to your seat bone/hip in the saddle. Don't lean enough to effect your balance, just a slight change will be felt by the horse. Imagine carrying a backpack,,what is the natural response to rebalance it if it goes over to one side? ...to move yourself under it to get it back in balance ....horses respond the same, they naturally will shift their selves to that side (MOST of the time, there's always that oddball exception) 
The above can also help with getting the turn that you want, add that weight shift to your leg and rein. If you know and the horse knows how to do hindquarter yields, you can also steer like steering a boat--get the direction you want by steering the backend , and that effects the front end. I would only try this at walk or trot,,,can't remember for sure if it's effected by what lead the horse is in, so before trying it at canter, ask someone more knowledgable than me. Also, for getting the turns that you want, be sure you are looking in the direction you want, and make sure your body is turning from shoulders down to and including hips,,,not just leg on. I sometimes make a somewhat jerky move with the hips and a bump on the rein to say 'Hey!, I really do mean turn right , right now' and that has worked with a horse that was ignoring softer cues. They seem to 'hear' the hips better than leg, shoulders, waist , in my experience. It was a little difficult for me to do at first, something about being in the saddle made it feel strange to me, but it did work and I added it to my arsenal of techniques to use when needed. 
I fault your instructors in good measure for not helping you with these things and allowing your frustration to continue. Example, if you're having any of these issues at walk or trot, they shouldn't be asking you to canter. Higher gaits magnify problems. 
For a horse that won't let you pick up , or hold up a foot....be as annoying as a younger sibling to an older sibling...don't get stronger on the chestnut, just be persistent, and (hard to do) keep an 'I will do this' attitude. Pinch the chestnut (not too hard) and either hold until he finally lifts the foot, or pinch-release-pinch-release untill he's annoyed enough to lift it. I wouldn't advise leaning into him to try to unbalance him at all. When he slams it back down, remain calm, fight your own annoyance feeling (hard to do), and rinse and repeat the process untill he finally allows you to hold it. Praise him when he does. Also, while pinching the chestnut with one hand, slide the other hand from a few inches above the foot down to nearly the foot with a feeling of 'I'm going to lift the foot with this leg when he picks it up'. 
Unfortunately , lessons horses get burned out and can be very stubborn and 'lazy', I can sympathize with them. Whereas you get a different horse every lesson, they get a different, often beginner-unbalanced, hard handed student. Who can blame them for some of their behavior? 
I wouldn't use the outside rein to avoid him cutting corners, for the reason you mentioned. I'd add weight shift and lifting the rein as described above to keep him from cutting corners, plus your focus. 
Elbows out and hands high is the classic, natural response to an uncomfortable trot or being unbalanced at the trot. However, it only makes things worse, in my personal experience. Have they taught you a correct seat of alignment of ears, shoulders,hips, back of heels, with heels even with or slightly lower than toes? Also, I learned from one of my instructors that when I think I'm sitting straight, I'm not, I felt like I was leaning way too far back when she finally said I was straight. Felt really awkward until I got accustomed to it. So if you already feel like you are leaning forward, I think you may be reallllly leaning forward. I've never heard that leaning forward softens the down portion of posting trot, but I do end up slightly , barely more forward in posting trot than in sitting trot, not saying that's correct, just saying that's me, and the same instructor never asked me to correct that. Also, for me, I find it more difficult to give leg cues when posting. Will they allow you to do some sitting trot ? As to hurting the horse, unless you are outright plopping back down, your probably NOT hurting him. It should be a controlled down with a soft landing, but I've not seen very many people plopping down hard, even beginner posters. 
It's ridiculous that you don't get to even ask for help during or after the lesson. I think you could find a better lesson situation. I hope you can. 
Hope some of what I said will be helpful to you. 
Keep up the good work and update on your progress, please.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

tinytrees11 said:


> Hi! I have been riding for 12 months total, group lesson only, 1 hour a week. I have been cantering 4 months after starting riding, and currently I'm doing jumps at a trot. Every time I come to my lesson, I get a different horse. Every horse seems to have their own problems and because of this, lessons can be frustrating.


Have you requested sticking to one or two horses, until you are comfortable with them, and then trying different horses?




> Sometimes, I ride this horse who I have a lot of trouble controlling in the canter. Once we start cantering, he bombs around the arena, cutting off other horses, getting super close to them, and completely ignoring any cues I give. What's worse is that today we had a substitute coach who kept egging me on to go faster, and the horse was just going crazy-- cutting corners, not listening to turns, not slowing down or stopping when I asked. I don't know how to deal with a horse like this. I know it's my fault, not the horse's. Another (much more experienced) rider rode him three weeks ago in my lesson, before she switched to a different class, and he was completely different with her-- he was listening, he was calm, so I know he's capable of this. Where am I mistaken? I feel like with him, I'm not collected, I'm out of control. But I don't know what being in control means. I don't know what to do to be in control.


You should not be riding this horse if you do not have the tools in your toolbox to know what to do to re-grain control. I will generally use circles to rate the speed of a canter, and really emphasize my lower leg to push the horse's belly out, and have them soften through the bridle.

If you don't feel comfortable on this horse, you shouldn't be riding it - nor should the instructor be watching you struggle with this horse and not intervening with techniques to try, or getting on themselves to show you how.




> This same horse also causes me problems during grooming and tacking. He will be very cooperative when I let him eat while I groom him, but if I tie him up in his stall, he becomes very salty. He'll paw at the ground and refuse to pick his hooves up (I've tried so many things: horse cookies, pinching/twisting the chestnut, getting him to move around a bit to throw him off balance, leaning into him). If I manage to get a hoof up, I'll be able to hold it for two seconds before he angrily slams it down on the ground. The school expects the horses to be tied up during grooming and tacking (I have no idea why this is necessary), but I've given up on this after a stablehand "helped" me by punching this horse in the barrel to get him to cooperate. What should I do?


It's not your horse, so it shouldn't be your problem - but the horse has your number and is doing what he/she wants. If you don't have the experience to fix this problem by yourself, then don't try - again, you shouldn't be stuck with this horse.

If this was your horse, I fully agree with the stablehand - I wouldn't have punched, but my horses fully know that if they give me problems with their feet, they get smacked in the belly. If he/she isn't lifting her leg, you can take the pick of the hoofpick and press it into the side of their cannon - they will generally quickly lift their leg. If the horse is able to get his foot out of your hand, you need to think ahead and have a better handle on his foot - this comes with confidence. If you ever watch a farrier, they generally can hold onto one leg and not let go of it, even if a horse is jumping around. Even try just saying a firm, nasty "QUIT IT" or "KNOCK IT OFF" - this may be enough. Again, if it were my horse, it would be paired with a solid slap to the belly.





> Secondly, I tend to end up most often on stubborn and very lazy horses. In particular, ones that don't like to turn when I ask them to (they prefer to follow their friends). When turning, I rely on my outside leg primarily, and if that isn't working, I add the inside rein, and press the crop into the shoulder, but for some reason nothing happens. These same horses also cut corners, especially during the canter, and no amount of leg and rein seems to help. I know I should start doing little pulls on the outside rein before the corners when we're cantering, but the horse seems to take it as a cue to slow down, and we end up falling apart into the trot again.


Managing horses like this comes with experience. Instead of using outside rein, I would be using inside leg on the corners - start with gentle squeezing, up the energy to taps if nothing happens, and continue to add more from there. If something small isn't work, you need to increase the volume of your aid - if you don't have the experience to do so, then the instructor should really be helping you...A theme is appearing here.



[quoteI do have the following issues as a rider. I have a tendency to lean forward in my trot (I get anxious about hurting the horse while I post, so I had previously thought leaning forward means I have a softer landing). I also tend to stick my elbows out, and sometimes my hands are in the wrong position (too high or too low). I'm working hard to correct these issues, and remind myself throughout each lesson to fix these things, but I don't know if they are what causes the above undesirable behaviour in the horses I ride.[/QUOTE]

You won't hurt the horse posting - post properly, it will increase your chances of staying on. Where you focus your weight is where you will go when things go haywire - leaning forward means you will end up on the ground. I don't think these things are causing the issues are having, but I do think your confidence may be.





> Finally, I'm not sure how much crop use is too much, and how much rein use is too much. The substitute coach kept telling me to use more crop, whereas my regular coach has gotten mad at me for this and has threatened to take the crop away. I also tend to rely too much on reins instead of leg when cantering, and I don't know how to correct this.


Aids (spur, crop, rein) are used on a situation by situation basis, and horse by horse basis. Some horses you have to be quiet and soft on, and some horses need more of a firm touch. Again, this is coming down to your instructor for you not knowing how/when/how often/how hard to use these aids.

IMO - after 48 hours of lessons, give or take, I would expect that you would have some of your own answers to these questions + a relationship with your instructor where you can ask questions, and they will step in when you need help. Without seeing the situation firsthand, I will say this is a *failure on the instructors part*, because the safety of a lesson student is the *number one priority* - and that doesn't seem prioritized.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

mslady254 said:


> First of all, one hour group lessons for 12 months isn't much !! Add to that a different horse every lesson, and some of them not listening to cues,,,equals frustration, no wonder you're feeling frustrated. If it's not an option at that barn, is there another that allows private lessons and can provide you the same horse at least some of the time ?



Thank you so much for your response, I appreciate it! I am currently restricted to this barn only, as I live in a big city (for the next couple years), and this is the only barn accessible by public transit as it's in the city (I don't have a car or access to one currently). The barn gets a lot of riders (kids especially), and each horse ends up in 1-3 lessons per day, so I think it would be difficult for me to get the same horse each time.




mslady254 said:


> What I've learned that helps when a horse won't move off my leg (not legs as in go, but leg as in a lateral move as in getting too close to other horses or cutting corners, or just leaking out of the straight path that I want) is to lift the rein opposite of the way I want him to move. I learned this technique from a Julie Goodnight video and it's worked for me.



I found the Julie Goodnight video and watched it. It seems to me like, for example if I'm turning to the left, my right hand draws the outside rein towards the neck, while my left hand opens the rein like an invitation. It sounds like the rein is creating a barrier for the horse, so really both hands are supposed to be participating in the turning? I had only been using one hand at this point. I think I also understood the torso part. The weight shift happens naturally, right? When my chest and hips move towards the direction I want to turn?





mslady254 said:


> For a horse that won't let you pick up , or hold up a foot....be as annoying as a younger sibling to an older sibling...don't get stronger on the chestnut, just be persistent, and (hard to do) keep an 'I will do this' attitude.



This is a good suggestion. The thing I'm worried about is that we have a limited time to groom and tack. Normally I arrive early so it's not an issue, but because of Covid right now, we have time restrictions for how early/late we are allowed to arrive to groom and tack (everything is indoors). So I'm worried I might run out of time with tacking if the horse is trying to fight me on this.


I have tried as you suggested, as a couple of websites I had previously found had written this as a solution, and it works well with other horses at this barn with the same problem. Once they realize I'm not going to go away, they give up. This particular horse, however, has no plans to let me have my way. A stablehand often has to get involved. Is there a reason it's not advisable to let him just eat his hay while I groom and tack him?





mslady254 said:


> Elbows out and hands high is the classic, natural response to an uncomfortable trot or being unbalanced at the trot. However, it only makes things worse, in my personal experience. Have they taught you a correct seat of alignment of ears, shoulders,hips, back of heels, with heels even with or slightly lower than toes? Also, I learned from one of my instructors that when I think I'm sitting straight, I'm not, I felt like I was leaning way too far back when she finally said I was straight. Felt really awkward until I got accustomed to it. So if you already feel like you are leaning forward, I think you may be reallllly leaning forward. I've never heard that leaning forward softens the down portion of posting trot, but I do end up slightly , barely more forward in posting trot than in sitting trot, not saying that's correct, just saying that's me, and the same instructor never asked me to correct that. Also, for me, I find it more difficult to give leg cues when posting. Will they allow you to do some sitting trot ? As to hurting the horse, unless you are outright plopping back down, your probably NOT hurting him. It should be a controlled down with a soft landing, but I've not seen very many people plopping down hard, even beginner posters.
> It's ridiculous that you don't get to even ask for help during or after the lesson. I think you could find a better lesson situation. I hope you can.
> Hope some of what I said will be helpful to you.
> Keep up the good work and update on your progress, please.



We did get told about heels down, and toes in so that the side of the calf is connected to the barrel. Ears, shoulders, hips, no. I'll have to look that up.



We do indeed do sitting trot, and apparently I don't have posture problems then. It's only in the posting trot that my trainer reminds me every class not to lean forward. What do you mean by uncomfortable trot? Does it mean I am too tense? I do get stiff shoulders, so maybe I am tense and the horse can sense this, although I am not sure I understand why it would make him refuse instructions. I think logically I haven't figured out how my torso being tense could affect the horse, since my legs are doing the bulk of the work and my lower body is not tense.



I am able to ask questions sometimes, but we don't get much chance in the ring right after the lesson because the next group will file in. As much as this school has some issues, I am reluctant to quit because I've wanted to ride for over 15 years and finally got the chance. Your response has really helped me, and I appreciate it. I was frustrated after my lesson today because regardless of how much time I've spent in the saddle and also reading about horses on the side, sometimes I wonder if maybe I don't understand horses in a way that experienced people do.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Is there any way you could, for a couple of weeks, pay extra for a private lesson, and address these issues with an instructor present?


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

ClearDonkey said:


> Have you requested sticking to one or two horses, until you are comfortable with them, and then trying different horses?



I will see if I can make that happen. I do usually end up on one of 3-4 horses, some which have the same issues, so it's not normally this overwhelming. I usually see it as a plus to end up on different horses since it gives me experience with different behaviours, but on the flip side, I have to accommodate these behaviours as a beginner and be able to anticipate them, and on top of that still be able to complete what my trainer requires during the lesson.




ClearDonkey said:


> You should not be riding this horse if you do not have the tools in your toolbox to know what to do to re-grain control. I will generally use circles to rate the speed of a canter, and really emphasize my lower leg to push the horse's belly out, and have them soften through the bridle.
> 
> If you don't feel comfortable on this horse, you shouldn't be riding it - nor should the instructor be watching you struggle with this horse and not intervening with techniques to try, or getting on themselves to show you how.



You're right. I'm still learning to use my legs to steer in the canter, as I find I get tense and my knees start to creep up without me noticing. The circles are also hard for me. The horses I get put on have trouble responding to my instructions to turn at the trot, so at the canter this is even harder to do. What do you mean by soften through the bridle? Do you mean not pulling on the reins much?




ClearDonkey said:


> It's not your horse, so it shouldn't be your problem - but the horse has your number and is doing what he/she wants. If you don't have the experience to fix this problem by yourself, then don't try - again, you shouldn't be stuck with this horse.
> 
> If this was your horse, I fully agree with the stablehand - I wouldn't have punched, but my horses fully know that if they give me problems with their feet, they get smacked in the belly. If he/she isn't lifting her leg, you can take the pick of the hoofpick and press it into the side of their cannon - they will generally quickly lift their leg. If the horse is able to get his foot out of your hand, you need to think ahead and have a better handle on his foot - this comes with confidence. If you ever watch a farrier, they generally can hold onto one leg and not let go of it, even if a horse is jumping around. Even try just saying a firm, nasty "QUIT IT" or "KNOCK IT OFF" - this may be enough. Again, if it were my horse, it would be paired with a solid slap to the belly.



I didn't punch the horse-- the stablehand did. I was pretty shocked to see that though, since I had assumed that such things would hurt the horse. I think I will do as you suggest and request not to be put on this horse anymore. I do hold pretty firmly when I've got the hoof up, and with any other horse this has worked (normally they yank a bit and then give up), but this horse continues to yank and yank and yank with more force each time until he can rip his hoof out of my hands. Even when I'm taking him for a cooldown walk, he'll frequently stop and try to twist the bridle off his face and jerk the reins out of my hands, and I need to pull with my entire body on the reins for him to go. I don't know why he does this, but it drives me crazy.




ClearDonkey said:


> Managing horses like this comes with experience. Instead of using outside rein, I would be using inside leg on the corners - start with gentle squeezing, up the energy to taps if nothing happens, and continue to add more from there. If something small isn't work, you need to increase the volume of your aid - if you don't have the experience to do so, then the instructor should really be helping you...A theme is appearing here.
> 
> Aids (spur, crop, rein) are used on a situation by situation basis, and horse by horse basis. Some horses you have to be quiet and soft on, and some horses need more of a firm touch. Again, this is coming down to your instructor for you not knowing how/when/how often/how hard to use these aids.
> 
> IMO - after 48 hours of lessons, give or take, I would expect that you would have some of your own answers to these questions + a relationship with your instructor where you can ask questions, and they will step in when you need help. Without seeing the situation firsthand, I will say this is a *failure on the instructors part*, because the safety of a lesson student is the *number one priority* - and that doesn't seem prioritized.



Yes, I agree with this. I had thought that maybe I was just a bad rider. When I was cantering on the crazy horse, and he kept cutting other horses off, the instructor would get irritated that my horse and I were getting in the way of others, but surely she could see that the horse was not listening and that I was struggling with him? I felt like I was at fault for not controlling my horse better, but how can I control this horse when he doesn't want to do what I'm asking? Very frustrating.


Thank you for your response. There is a lot for me to think about.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

tinytrees11 said:


> I will see if I can make that happen. I do usually end up on one of 3-4 horses, some which have the same issues, so it's not normally this overwhelming. I usually see it as a plus to end up on different horses since it gives me experience with different behaviours, but on the flip side, I have to accommodate these behaviours as a beginner and be able to anticipate them, and on top of that still be able to complete what my trainer requires during the lesson.


There is zero shame of not being able to accommodate all of these horses' behaviors after only a year of riding, _especially_ horses that may or may not be suited as beginner's mounts. Getting on different horses and learning from each is indeed invaluable, but not when it is leaving you frustrated - many people leave the sport because of their introduction to riding being like this.

Something that you could do is occasionally ask to ride a more difficult horse, but in a private lesson rather than group. You will still be getting the experience on the more difficult horse, but I bet this will leave you feeling a lot safer and less frustrated having 100% of the coaches attention and teaching on you.



> You're right. I'm still learning to use my legs to steer in the canter, as I find I get tense and my knees start to creep up without me noticing. The circles are also hard for me. The horses I get put on have trouble responding to my instructions to turn at the trot, so at the canter this is even harder to do. What do you mean by soften through the bridle? Do you mean not pulling on the reins much?


I will tell you, I have been riding for nearly 15 years, and the canter is the one thing that I still struggle at from time to time still - it is hard for me to "perfect" it, so kudos for you on wanting to learn how to do better and be better.

It is hard to give you solid advice on how to improve these things without knowing exactly what is going on, but if a horse isn't good at the trot, it definitely won't be better at the canter 99% of the time (and the training of this horse falls onto your trainer's shoulders - a beginner shouldn't be riding a horse that resists the basics, like doing a circle!).

Have you done a half-seat at all yet? Where you stand in your stirrups, focus your weight into your heels, and 'sweep' your bum across the seat of the saddle? This is what makes me relax in the canter before having a full-seat (bum fully in saddle), because I can feel the security of my heels and calves on the horse, and I know that the horse isn't being influence by my unconfident seat in the beginning. Here is a video showing the difference, though I wouldn't consider their "half-seat" a true half-seat.






And on the topic of softening through the bridle - I mean that the horse decreases his resistance in the bridle, and becomes supple through the mouth. A way to think of this is that instead of having an argument with the horse, you are instead having a conversation. I encourage you to check out Amelia Newcombe on YouTube - she has great explanations in her videos.






Hopefully others can offer more insight on softening through the bridle, because I am at a loss for words right now (I need more coffee!).




> I didn't punch the horse-- the stablehand did. I was pretty shocked to see that though, since I had assumed that such things would hurt the horse. I think I will do as you suggest and request not to be put on this horse anymore. I do hold pretty firmly when I've got the hoof up, and with any other horse this has worked (normally they yank a bit and then give up), but this horse continues to yank and yank and yank with more force each time until he can rip his hoof out of my hands. Even when I'm taking him for a cooldown walk, he'll frequently stop and try to twist the bridle off his face and jerk the reins out of my hands, and I need to pull with my entire body on the reins for him to go. I don't know why he does this, but it drives me crazy.


I know you didn't do it  Remember that horses are 1,000lb animals, and think about what they do to each other in pasture when one horse doesn't respect another. Sometimes firm, quick smacks (not punches!) can quickly resolve an issue. I don't think you should handle this issue, the trainer and stablehands should. If you owned the horse and he began doing the 'yank, yank, yank' of his foot, I would encourage you to yell at him to 'KNOCK IT OFF' and smack his belly. But, since it's not your horse, it's not your problem.

As for him being a jerk while walking...I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Because you are a beginner, you shouldn't have to deal with this, especially without someone more experienced helping you. I will generally carry a driving whip with horses like these, because with a flick of the wrist, you can wrap the whip around their bum and make them go forward. He does this because he is disrespectful and needs corrected, but this shouldn't be your responsibility.




> Yes, I agree with this. I had thought that maybe I was just a bad rider. When I was cantering on the crazy horse, and he kept cutting other horses off, the instructor would get irritated that my horse and I were getting in the way of others, but surely she could see that the horse was not listening and that I was struggling with him? I felt like I was at fault for not controlling my horse better, but how can I control this horse when he doesn't want to do what I'm asking? Very frustrating.
> 
> Thank you for your response. There is a lot for me to think about.


I highly doubt you are a bad rider - especially because you are trying to get better. The next time you are in this situation, I encourage you to ride to the middle of the arena and stop next to your instructor, and tell them you don't know what to do to remedy the situation and need help. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but if your instructor gives you a reason not to ask questions, you need a new instructor.

Remember, the most important thing about horseback riding - _you should be enjoying yourself._ If you aren't at this barn, there is no shame in switching to a different barn.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

I once had an black Arabian stallion that would not let me pick up his hind feet and would kick at me. Other than that he was a nice horse. I made a loop in a soft rope and laid it on the ground. When he stepped into it I would pull it up behind his pastern and let him kick away. He soon learned to stand quietly and let me pick up the feet.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

Well, it seems like you've already gotten quite a lot of advice! So I'll try not to over complicate things by adding too much, but I might end up doing so regardless because I've read a few things I dont personally agree with. But take whatever advice you feel makes the most sense for you.
First of all, I agree that if you had the opportunity to move to a different barn, I would. It sounds like these horses have gotten really fed up with how often they're being ridden and how much beginner bull**** they have to put up with... but since you can't, we'll work with what we have!
When it comes to your issues with riding... it sounds like people are giving you a lot of really specific advice... my advice is the complete opposite... don't overthink it! All these tips and tricks are more suited to riders who have already gotten really comfortable at the canter and are ready to start micro-managing their movements for a better, more precise ride. This can take years. The canter is fast, obviously, and it takes a lot of time to get to the point where you can even really process and logically consider what you're doing besides the basics of turning and keeping pace in my opinion. My first recommendation would be to ask the coach to split you in groups of two, have half the group stand in the middle while the other half canter on the rail. Makes it a lot easier to think when your space isn't as crowded. Then you can switch off when one group is done. Its difficult to tell exactly whats wrong with that one horse, but I find that horses tend to rush around corners and speed up when the rider is off balance. Its like they're constantly trying to catch themselves, and have to keep running to keep their feet under them, if that makes sense. They lean around corners because they feel you lean and are trying to keep themselves under you (sort of like when you're carrying a heavy bucket and your body drops to that side, the horses body will drop to that side if the heavy weight theyre carrying drops that way) I would just try and keep things as simple as possible for now. Before you canter, take a deep breath, and relax. Don't get nervous or overthink things as it will only make you less balanced and less in control. Be okay with not doing well even before you start, because the horse can feel you worrying and your worrying will keep you from focusing on your job. When you transition, think about sitting up tall and putting your leg back just a bit. The horse can feel the difference even if its just a bit, and if you put your leg too far back it'll make you lean forward. Then when you're cantering, just focus on keeping tall and half-halting as you need. Slowly, as you get more comfortable with these first few steps, you'll be able to integrate more and more advanced stuff. But even with 6 months or a year of cantering, you're likely still too overwhelmed with the speed and chaos of it all to worry about micro managing your reins and legs. I could be wrong, so sorry for assuming, but that's certainly how I felt for a long time. I took group lessons for 8 years!
For posting - just do your best to grip with your knees. When you do, your knees act like a spring, cushioning your body as you drop like the shocks on a bike or car. Also a lot of newer riders make the mistake of over-posting - meaning they rise really high up out of the saddle, which, in turn, means you have to drop a far ways back down which can feel like you're slamming into their back. Let the trot control how much you post. Let the horses body push you out of the saddle naturally, follow the movement by extending your knees with it. Dont try overly hard to get as far out of the saddle as you can. Your knees should never really be fully extended unless your stirrups are too long or the trot is very very bouncy. 
For the feet- yeah, I'd agree to do your best and just hold the foot until he relaxes, then reward him by putting the foot back down or rubbing/telling him good job. Please, id really really advise against hitting or yelling at your horse as someone else recommended to do. The reason the horse is pulling away is because he's expecting this and his scared of it. Horses don't yank their feet away to be mean, they do it because they're scared of the person holding their feet, or worried you'll do something sudden like hit them or drop their feet. As prey animals horses feel very vulnerable when you take away theyre ability to escape (their feet and balance) so if the horse is nervous, they won't want you to have their feet. Smacking the horse just makes this worse. He's probably learned to do this because of many different riders punishing him like this when he's already vulnerable without all four feet on the ground. Dont make the situation worse by making him more anxious. If you lose it, just pick it back up in time. I dont like the chestnut squeeze method, and prefer to gently rock their weight off that foot. If the horse is really bad, ill just pick their feet for literally 1 second, then reward them vy putting it back down before they reward themselves by yanking it away from you. Then repeat.
For the pulling - i remember one time I was waiting at a pasture gate for this girl to bring her horse through the gate before i went and got mine. She pulled and pulled this horse, who just planted and yanked his head back. I got frustrated from waiting, went in, took the lead from her and he calmly walked out no problem XD I find when a horse won't lead, it's almost always one or both of 2 things: you're walking ahead of your horse, and the horse doesn't like walking straight toward you, or you're pulling on the horse - horses do not like to be pulled around and would rather resist it than listen. This is exactly what that girl was doing. As soon as I stood beside the horse and stopped dragging him, he was fine. When a horse doesn't want to walk, I make sure I'm standing next to him, then I gently indicate with the reins or lead to walk forward with a light tug. If this doesn't work, I will pull and wiggle the lead at the same time, while still standing beside him, to annoy him into moving. I'll add a whip to the butt if this fails, as someone else said. The SECOND he takes a step forward, I reward by letting the reins go slack and giving him a chance to lead on a loose rein. As I said, horses hate being dragged. They just want to pull away from the overwhelming pressure. So once he's going dont pull. Just let him walk beside you and if he falls behind or stops, ask again until he responds and reward by taking pressure off. Never walk in front of them and never drag/pull continuously. 
It sounds like this one horse is probably not suited to you and i agree to ask to change from this horse. However i disagree with other people telling you to ask to just stick to one horse for awhile. It definitely feels nice and its less frustrating but its an essential part of learning especially in the early phases. Ive met riders who got to just ride the same horse over and over again and they got very scared and out of control when put on something new. Its annoying, but essential you learn how to adapt to a new horse, how to learn what a new horse is like quickly and be comfortable in any variety of situations. Its especially good to learn this while you're new to riding, you're in a school where you have access to many horses and not leasing or owning. All the variety will feel like its slowing you down and in a sense it is, but you're always improving the diversity of your skills and learning to perform all sorts of different things (canter, jumps etc) in different scenarios which will make all those skills better in the long run.
Hope this helps!


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## Danneq (Sep 18, 2020)

tinytrees11 said:


> Thank you so much for your response, I appreciate it! I am currently restricted to this barn only, as I live in a big city (for the next couple years), and this is the only barn accessible by public transit as it's in the city (I don't have a car or access to one currently). The barn gets a lot of riders (kids especially), and each horse ends up in 1-3 lessons per day, so I think it would be difficult for me to get the same horse each time.


You might want to ask if they have any horses up for partial lease, if you can afford it. Then you'd for sure have the same horse for each lesson. You'd want it to definitely be a horse you like to work with, though.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I don't really understand the idea of these lesson barns. Are they there to help the paying clients? Or are the paying clients there to help the barn? 



From what I understand of the situation, you are being pushed along by the trainers, bossed around and pushed ahead into situations that you do not have the skills yet required to manage. The horses that you are working with are in the same situation, the problems that you are having are as a result of issues not being addressed when they occur, just constant pressure to keep moving forward, glossing over issues.


As a paying client, (i.e theoretically the boss - the one paying the bills and the wages) maybe it is time you began to create your own training program, define your own goals and create the time schedule required to meet these goals. You sound like a very intelligent person, you have given me a very good sense of where you are at and a sense that you know where things are falling down. You seem to know that you are being pushed along too fast, that you are not being given the chance to correct the mistakes you are making or find the solutions to the problems you are having.


I personally am a quite difficult person in the sense that I do not like to be pushed around - especially if I am paying for something. If I was you I would be digging in my toes and doing what the heck I wanted. Every time I went for a lesson I would be picking something that I wanted to master, transitioning from the trot to the canter for example and that is what I would work on. The "trainer" could scream herself blue in the face for all I would care. After all I would be paying to be there for me - not them.


The reason you are having all these issues seems to be because the barn is playing the numbers game and pushing students through with a mind toward making the most money with the least investment in energy. My advice would be dig in your toes. There is more to horsemanship than just riding. Decide to dedicate your lesson time to improving one aspect of the horse you have been allocated. You might have to forget about riding for that lesson as you may decide that instead, you are going to work toward feeling better around your horses feet today or to lead it nicely or something. Do this for your own confidence sake! Every time you encounter something that you wish could be better just STOP! Dig in your toes and decide to work with this one issue, allow yourself time to experiment and learn what works and in the meantime look outside the barn for alternative learning methods, Warwick Schiller videos are a great source of info on how to work with shut down horses.


Ultimately I think you are just being bullied and the fact that you consider yourself so inexperienced is allowing lazy people to take advantage of you. You are paying to gain these skills, if I was you I would be deciding on how I wanted my lessons to go and ensuring that that is how they went.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

kiwigirl said:


> I don't really understand the idea of these lesson barns. Are they there to help the paying clients? Or are the paying clients there to help the barn?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is exactly it!!
I've had my fair share of putting up with lesson barns and man - they really seem to go out of their way to treat their students like ****.
There's some sort of superiority complex that runs rampant in barns, and lesson barns seem to be a black hole for this kind of behavior - just draws the worst of the worst in. Probably, as above said, because they can make money off of bossing others around and parading their superiority in front of people who don't know better. 
They know they can tell you to do whatever you want, make you feel as vulnerable as you want and still get paid for their minimum effort because you're around these big animals you don't understand and many people feel they have no control or say of the situation because they feel their expertise isn't there.
Plus, as in your situation, barns are few and far in between so they monopolize the market - dont like how we coach? Too bad, there's nowhere else to go!
I qas once paying $60 per hour long lesson in which, as a rider jumping 2ft courses, was put on lame horses and sat in the middle for 90% of rhe lesson watching riders who had been there longer or leased a horse get preferential treatment (more attention from the cksch, more canter time, more chances at a jump course). Boy did I get sick of it FAST. 
Above is right - complain, did in your toes, don't let them get away with treating you like crap. You pay them, so they should respect you. Only problems is, they do have the monopoly power ON TOP OF the group majority power - since all the other students politely get their as**s kicked by coaches without saying a word, they'll expect you to follow along (and if you don't, it means nothing to them, since they'll still have plenty enough students to fund their backwards management style without you). Not to mention theyll likely assume you don't know what neoprene talking about and have no right to put in your two scents from the previously mentioned superiority complex. UGH
Its risky, to be aggressively demanding on how you're treated at a lesson barn. But yeah, it def makes me angry too .


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

Aww, I feel really bad for you. Riding should be fun. From your description of the place, it sounds more like a daily grind for man and beast. It seems as if everyone's lost their passion. 

You need one-on-one time in the saddle on the lunge with an instructor that _wants_ to be there teaching! Riding multiple horses is great, but for later, when you have a solid understanding and feeling of the aids and their application. Sticking with one horse will allow you to build confidence and a relationship with an equine partner--what every rider wants! 

Is there any possibility of achieving this at this barn?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

@AliceWalker: I love your passion lol!!


However, I have to say that I wasn't suggesting torch wielding, pitch fork branding anarchy or dancing naked in the light of our burning bridges lol - But I love it!!


I just mean to suggest the OP quietly and stubbornly take responsibility for her own learning within the system she currently finds herself. She doesn't have to get into fights or confrontations, simply decide what she chooses to learn of a day and then become selectively deaf to those who have different ideas. Consider herself hiring a horse for an hour to do with as she pleases (sensibly of course) because she has realized she is not going to get the results she desires by using the existing methods pushed by the barn. Like I said there is a lot of good info available to aid us to learn online, study that, watch it and then see if you can put it into practice at your barn - at YOUR own leisure - forget other peoples ideas, even those that have set themselves up as a "trainer".


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

kiwigirl said:


> @AliceWalker: I love your passion lol!!
> 
> 
> However, I have to say that I wasn't suggesting torch wielding, pitch fork branding anarchy or dancing naked in the light of our burning bridges lol - But I love it!.


Trust me, that isn't what I had in mind! From my experience, even the slightest resistance at these kinds of barns can bring a lot of wrath. I remember once working my part-board horse during a lesson, specficially during the warm-up which after 6 years of lesson I was finally allowed to do on my own. I was doing some transitions, and asked my horse to back up. Then proceeded to get lectured for 10 minutes (no exaggeration) on how asking my horse to back up is dangerous and would cause him to rear (mind you I was not yanking the reins or making him run backwards, just gently asked for it and the horse gently responded appropriately) Every one of these barns I've been is so strict because of a combo of superiority complex from adults, fear of lawsuits if something dangerous happens, and just a deep need of constant control that seems to be really common in riders in general. Can't have a horse on crossties for more than a half hour. Weird looks when you graze your lesson horse in hand. Can't clean a stall any way other than what you're told. Have to do up elastic side of girth on a specific side. Can't ride on a loose rein. Once even got yelled at for walking a horse up a tiny ramp that she was supposedly terrified of... after she had already gone up it perfectly calmly. As O.P said, she doesn't even seem to be allowed to get her horse ready IN A STALL without him being tied! Any time I've ever tried to ignore a coach even when all I want is to have a slightly loose rein at a trot, I got chewed out. Trust me, with these people, even the slightest requests can turn into massive issues. Then more often or not youre branded amongst the coaches and even other riders as difficult, willful, stupid, etc. Barn school culture is just in its own little world and you have to really live it to know the rules. Maybe you got lucky with the barns you learned at or didn't have to learn at one of these barns. But most of them are like this. It's really hard to do anything that they don't explicitly allow you to do.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

kiwigirl said:


> The reason you are having all these issues seems to be because the barn is playing the numbers game and pushing students through with a mind toward making the most money with the least investment in energy. My advice would be dig in your toes. There is more to horsemanship than just riding. Decide to dedicate your lesson time to improving one aspect of the horse you have been allocated. You might have to forget about riding for that lesson as you may decide that instead, you are going to work toward feeling better around your horses feet today or to lead it nicely or something. Do this for your own confidence sake! Every time you encounter something that you wish could be better just STOP! Dig in your toes and decide to work with this one issue, allow yourself time to experiment and learn what works and in the meantime look outside the barn for alternative learning methods, Warwick Schiller videos are a great source of info on how to work with shut down horses.



This might be why this school cycles through so many students. I had assumed people quickly lose interest in riding, but maybe that's not the case. Of the old group I used to ride with, before I got moved to the advanced level, only two riders have stuck with it for more than a year. Everyone else had quit.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

Danneq said:


> You might want to ask if they have any horses up for partial lease, if you can afford it. Then you'd for sure have the same horse for each lesson. You'd want it to definitely be a horse you like to work with, though.





ACinATX said:


> Is there any way you could, for a couple of weeks, pay extra for a private lesson, and address these issues with an instructor present?



I have considered paying for a set of private lessons, but I'm a bit on the fence at the moment. First, the private lessons are pretty pricey; I'm already paying a decent sum to afford the group. I'm also unsure about how much I can accomplish on my own, since I'm aware of what needs to be fixed. I was thinking private might be better when the corrections aren't so easy to figure out, when I'm more experienced, but perhaps this is the wrong mindset. 



I think, based on the response of @kiwigirl, I should be more assertive/vocal in asking questions and requesting help, which is definitely an area I should work on. I think I could have stopped the crazy horse in the middle of the ring during the canter and asked for help, but for whatever reason this didn't occur to me at the time.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

AliceWalker said:


> For the feet- yeah, I'd agree to do your best and just hold the foot until he relaxes, then reward him by putting the foot back down or rubbing/telling him good job. Please, id really really advise against hitting or yelling at your horse as someone else recommended to do. The reason the horse is pulling away is because he's expecting this and his scared of it. Horses don't yank their feet away to be mean, they do it because they're scared of the person holding their feet, or worried you'll do something sudden like hit them or drop their feet. As prey animals horses feel very vulnerable when you take away theyre ability to escape (their feet and balance) so if the horse is nervous, they won't want you to have their feet. Smacking the horse just makes this worse. He's probably learned to do this because of many different riders punishing him like this when he's already vulnerable without all four feet on the ground. Dont make the situation worse by making him more anxious. If you lose it, just pick it back up in time. I dont like the chestnut squeeze method, and prefer to gently rock their weight off that foot. If the horse is really bad, ill just pick their feet for literally 1 second, then reward them vy putting it back down before they reward themselves by yanking it away from you. Then repeat.



Good suggestions! I do agree with this. I prefer to avoid slapping/punching horses if I can, and usually seek a different method to get the point across. We have a couple of biters at this barn as well, and they usually bite once you start grooming/tacking them. I'll usually keep an eye out for the horse's head, and tie the lead rope short. If I see him lunging at me, I'll push his head away real quick. The biters are usually using these tactics as a way to get out of having to ride, so when they see it isn't working, they give up. I've seen other people slap these horses hard, and it makes me cringe a bit.




AliceWalker said:


> For the pulling - i remember one time I was waiting at a pasture gate for this girl to bring her horse through the gate before i went and got mine. She pulled and pulled this horse, who just planted and yanked his head back. I got frustrated from waiting, went in, took the lead from her and he calmly walked out no problem XD I find when a horse won't lead, it's almost always one or both of 2 things: you're walking ahead of your horse, and the horse doesn't like walking straight toward you, or you're pulling on the horse - horses do not like to be pulled around and would rather resist it than listen.



Thank you, I'll try that! 




AliceWalker said:


> As O.P said, she doesn't even seem to be allowed to get her horse ready IN A STALL without him being tied!



I had initially assumed that maybe the barn was worried some horses would have a natural instinct to get territorial about their food, but I've never seen any behaviour like that from these horses. I usually let the horse eat (despite the school's weird rules), because my lesson is in the morning, and I start grooming right after the horses get their morning feed distributed (they get their food pretty much right when I walk in). Tying up a horse at this time, when they know they have their unfinished breakfast in their stall, makes them understandably very salty. None of them seem to mind me grooming them while they're eating.


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

Just a quick response for the horse pulling the hoof away when you go to pick it out, when the horse does that, do you try to hold the hoof so that you maintain it in the same position or do you hold the hoof firmly but allow the horse to move it back and forth? Hope that makes sense. Anyway, what I have found with a horse doing that, is that if you try to strongly hold their hoof in the same position, it just makes them try to pull it away more. Like they go OMG, my hoof is trapped, I had better pull really hard now. By contrast, if you hold it firmly but allow for movement (so your hand/arm follows their hoof back and forth), I have found they go "oh right, it is not trapped, but I am not getting it back either, so I will just calm down now. If they try snatch it and stamp it down when you go to put it down, I also just do the same thing. Relaxed but firm hold, allowing for movement back and forth till they stop, and then put it down and reward them (pat, praise etc.). This tends to work well with the ones who are not really bad about pulling/snatching their hoof away. If they are really bad, they sometimes need a firm "no" at the same time. Also, this is if the horse is going back and forth with the hoof or just snatch it and put it down, not if they are actively trying to kick out sideways at you.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

"found the Julie Goodnight video and watched it. It seems to me like, for example if I'm turning to the left, my right hand draws the outside rein towards the neck, while my left hand opens the rein like an invitation. It sounds like the rein is creating a barrier for the horse, so really both hands are supposed to be participating in the turning? I had only been using one hand at this point. I think I also understood the torso part. The weight shift happens naturally, right? When my chest and hips move towards the direction I want to turn?"

Glad you found one of her videos. Actually the difference is a turn Vs a move over (sideways, which is only move over ,,,, side pass-which is sideways and forward at the same time). Hope that makes sense. If you turn to get further from the horses he is about to run into, you'd be somewhat turning his butt to them and changing the direction that you are going. As I understood, you are having issues with 1) getting the turn that you want and 2) he cuts corners and gets too close to the other horses. Two different problems with 2 slightly different solutions. You are absolutely right above regarding a turn via rein positions. However the weight shift that I was trying to describe is added to the turn of the torso by just slightly moving your shoulders over,,,,so if neutral is left shoulder over left hip and right shoulder over right hip,,,then to weight the left hip (for added umps for left turn cue), then left shoulder slightly beyond left hip and right shoulder slightly left of right hip. Try it just standing on the ground to get the feel of it in your feet. 
Also, to get the move over, the rein action is a bit different that you describe above for a simple turn. (you didn't find the exact same video of Julie's). If he is crowding horses that are to the right of him, weight the left hip and lift then put down the right rein -up-down,up-down, close to or brushing against his neck. If you hold your reins with your thumb up (don't know if you do), you can also turn your thumb outward about 45 degrees which brings the bottom of your hand (and the rein) closer to his neck. While doing this, keep your focus ahead and just slightly to the left, but not fully left as you would for a turn. And keep your right leg on--pulse it if you think he would respond better to that, take the left leg slightly off . (open and close doors)(Julie also has a good video on the 'doors') 
It's difficult to describe things in text and I hope the mental picture you're getting is correct !

As someone said, this is considered an advanced technique, but I honestly don't think it is difficult if I've made the steps clear to you. It is something that seems to speak naturally to the horses that I've ridden, without lots of 'training' for it. However a horse that ignores and blow thru any cues is a different situation. 

I understand your limitation of time regarding the lifting the foot issue. I guess that comes down to either asking for stablehand help with that one horse, or doing as others have suggested to be assertive with the barn instructors to try to progress on your own. 

I agree with the other posters that you have a very good assessment of yourself and where you need help. It's a shame that such a good student has such a difficult situation to deal with. I do 'get' it that if this is your only opportunity to have some horse time, that even subpar instruction is worth it to be able to ride.


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## Danneq (Sep 18, 2020)

tinytrees11 said:


> I have considered paying for a set of private lessons, but I'm a bit on the fence at the moment. First, the private lessons are pretty pricey; I'm already paying a decent sum to afford the group. I'm also unsure about how much I can accomplish on my own, since I'm aware of what needs to be fixed. I was thinking private might be better when the corrections aren't so easy to figure out, when I'm more experienced, but perhaps this is the wrong mindset.


 I think that private lessons are what you really need. One-on-one time with a good teacher will help you to lay a good strong foundation that you can build upon in group lessons. Of course, money is always a problem, especially if the teachers aren't taking their students seriously. Could you pay for a mixture of private and group, to alleviate the cost? Do a private, then a month of group, then another private, etc?


Also, kiwigirl is right, the instructors are bullying you. Saying "you need to stand up for yourself" is cliché and also is really easy for me to say when I'm on the internet and not in your position, but I definitely wish it's something I'd been better at when I took lessons as a kid. Try practicing what you want to say ("I don't understand how to X, please explain it to me," "I'm not ready to do Y, what can I do help me prepare?" "I don't feel safe on this particular horse," etc.) at home until you can say them confidently.


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hi OP  I just briefly read the two pages here on your situation (forgive me if I miss some things). I definitely agree that this is not the ideal barn for you, but I can also understand the limitations you have, at the moment. 

I have some alternatives and also suggestions for things you could do in the future, which may or may not be feasible for you.

Firstly, I think I saw you mentioned that you prefer one instructor over the other? If so, would it be possible to contact her directly and book a lesson with her only (make that emphasized) on a lesson by lesson basis? I used to do this at a lesson barn I used to ride at to get the head coach, instead of the other instructors, who were in training. On that same note, you could request to ride the same horse for a few weeks, so you are able to get some consistency. Tell the instructor that you would really like to focus on correcting your posting and you feel it would be helpful to ride one horse to do this, for consistency. Another thing you could do is to set goals (such as fixing one aspect of your position in a lesson or two) and then have a chat with your instructor to discuss and implement a plan to move towards your goal. 

Something you could do outside of lessons to improve is some homework. Read, ask questions, watch instructional youtube videos, and maybe even start up a targeted workout routine. Having an understanding of an idea prior to trying to physically learn it can help speed the process up a bit. Furthermore, there are some concepts in riding that can be a bit more difficult to explain. For example, reading about all the different ways you can use seat aids (driving, passive, resisting, using individual seat bones) can help clarify things before your instructor teaches it to you. Developing a targeted workout plan alongside that will help you develop the proper muscles to keep proper position, which is hard to do with only one ride per week. 

Lastly, private lessons are easier to improve in because of the one-on-one instruction. In group lessons, particularly with beginners, an instructors main focus is safety and traffic control (which it seems your substitute instructor did not do very well). Additionally, we have to divide our attention between everyone in the lesson, so are not able to pick up on everything. You could try a private lesson or two to see if the quality of instruction improves much. However, if it doesn't, then I'd probably reserve my extra cash for an instructor who is able to provide you the quality instruction you are paying for. 

Aside from that, I can't think of any more current things you would be able to do to improve your situation without having to drive further. If you are able to get a car ride further out though, I would recommend looking at other barn options that better suit your goals. Personally, I've found that barns with instructors that specialize (not necessarily competition orientated) in a certain discipline are best for people who are ambitious in improving. There are also some special gems that just don't advertise and operate mostly through word of mouth. If you have the chance to chat with avid horseback riders or horse owners in the community, ask who they like as an instructor in the area. If you have a local tack store, then it might be a good idea to ask the sales associates. I used to work at a tack store and you get to know the community pretty well, plus we had people ask about riding schools all the time, so even had a list to hand out. I'd also recommend looking to see if there are any places you may volunteer your time (like a therapeutic riding center), as they sometimes offer volunteers they trust to exercise their horses for them. 

When you feel a little more confident in your independent riding skills and are looking to expand your riding skills, I'd also recommend searching for a reliable lease horse (on-site, 2 days per week). This is location dependent, but where I am, most of the better instructors only travel to give lessons and do not have their own lesson horses.


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## BetterLateThanNever (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi! 

I've only been taking lessons for a few months, but I was at a barn with what sounds like a very similar crop of lesson horses. This barn is huge--in addition to lessons, has camps and trail rides. So the horses there were often tired, cranky, girthy, and often either lazy or reactive. The more I learned about being a good horse owner, the more I realized that this place was NOT taking great care of their horses. It sounds like you don't have the option to switch barns, but if you ever are able, I definitely would. I left in July and have since found a wonderful instructor through a rescue ranch and she's finally showing me what happy, well-trained horses are!

My instructor at my original barn was certainly not a bully, but she was inexperienced and also had me doing things before I felt I had a good foundation. I was never taught proper balance, position, or cues and mostly was just taught to kick the horse, pull with the reins to go the direction you want, and GOOD LUCK! So, I started looking up things on my own. I found a great website that showed the progression of skills a rider might go through and I looked up videos and articles about each skill. At lessons, I would ask TONS of questions and make sure my instructor was giving me specific feedback, including WHY she was telling me to do what I was doing. I'm sure she got sick of me saying, "I read in an article that..." but I didn't care. I started to progress a bit more then, but when my group lesson got up to 8 people, I was done. 

All in all, I'd say that if you can't switch barns, at least go for private lessons. I think it will really help. I'm taking private lessons now and I can't believe how much I've grown already. She is constantly talking to me about form, balance, and proper cuing and I'm having FUN! 

Best of luck! I'll look forward to hearing updates!


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

Hi all,


I've got an update. First, huge thank you to all who gave me tips. I spent a good amount of my spare time this week watching Julie Goodnight videos, and reviewed the tips in this thread before my lesson, and honestly, it made a world of difference! I had another substitute coach again, so I hijacked my lesson as suggested, and practiced my stuff. I also rode my favourite lazy boy, but he has the same behavioural problems as the crazy horse in my OP, just on a smaller scale.


First, the hoof suggestion worked amazingly. My lazy boy will pick up his feet no problem, but will pull and slam his hooves down shortly after. I noticed that while his hoof was up, he would periodically "test" it by pulling it to see if it was stuck. Previously, I would pull it in the opposite direction to tell him "no, I'm busy, you'll get your hoof back when I'm finished", but that would usually result in a tug-o-war which he'd obviously win. Now, I let my arm relax and go with his little tugging motions, and once he realized his hoof wasn't stuck and he could move it, he'd relax. He didn't put his hooves down once, until I was done. :grin: I gave him plenty of rewarding pats in between each hoof because he was being such a good boy. 



I also watched a Julie Goodnight video on seat gears, and it was honestly like discovering a magic button I didn't know existed. I found out that just by sitting deep into the saddle, curling my pelvis inwards towards my stomach, pushing my shoulders down, and making myself heavy (the "stop" gear), I could stop my horse without using the reins at all! I had always relied on harshly pulling back on the reins before. The "forward" gear also helped immensely. We did a lot of trot/walk/stop transitions today, and I found that if I urge the horse forward in my seat by repeatedly using the "forward" gear, he would give me a very active walk that would transition easily to the trot with a slight pressure of my heels. Every time I had ridden this horse before, he'd always require a ton of kicking and crop use to get him trotting, and he'd barely crawl along in his walk. It was like night and day with him today.


I also worked hard on my posture. It seems obvious, but it was a lot easier to post with a good posture when I was looking straight ahead (for some reason I had never made that connection before). I was able to maintain a correct posture throughout the entire lesson. Normally, I look down at the horse's head, which makes me also lean forward in the trot. Julie had also said not to land on your crotch, but land on your seat bones during the post, so I made sure to keep that in mind as well and it helped.



There are still things that didn't work. I can't seem to turn the horse without a struggle at the trot and canter (where I can't rely on opening my chest and seat bones to turn like in the walk). I think I'm focusing on the reins too much, because the outside rein would cross over, which is what Julie said not to do. My lazy boy was cutting corners sometimes, and I couldn't figure out how to make him stop doing that (I did watch the Julie Goodnight video about opening and closing doors, but it was a little over my head). The canter was still a mess (the horse didn't want to turn in the canter no matter how much I tried, and the worst corner cutting was here). However, I did succeed more at relaxing before and during the canter in my upper body (I'm still struggling to keep my heels down though), and breathing in and out deeply before asking for the canter, like Amelia Newcombe said to do. My arms and hands are also all over the place in all gaits. But I figured that this isn't going to be fixed right away.


I finally felt like I was understanding the horse I was riding. I felt like I had made breakthroughs, and this stuff finally clicked for me. Today's lesson felt less like an argument and more like we were being a team.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

BetterLateThanNever said:


> ...the more I realized that this place was NOT taking great care of their horses. It sounds like you don't have the option to switch barns, but if you ever are able, I definitely would...



For sure, you are right! I will be living in this current city for a few more years, and then moving to the opposite side of the country. There are many more barns in close proximity to the city I want to live in, and I will definitely be shopping around for a good barn, rather than settling for the first one from the get go.





BetterLateThanNever said:


> I was never taught proper balance, position, or cues and mostly was just taught to kick the horse, pull with the reins to go the direction you want, and GOOD LUCK! So, I started looking up things on my own.
> 
> All in all, I'd say that if you can't switch barns, at least go for private lessons. I think it will really help. I'm taking private lessons now and I can't believe how much I've grown already. She is constantly talking to me about form, balance, and proper cuing and I'm having FUN!


This is EXACTLY how the instructors at my barn teach. Maybe it's just my impression, but I feel like all the aids are very disconnected. You just jerk on the correct rein, kick with the correct leg, and that's it. Oh, and add heavy crop use to that pile. I know there are riders out there who barely use the reins, who ride their horses bitless, so SURELY it is possible to communicate to your horse what you want without having to constantly kick and smack them to get your way. I feel like you did-- why we do what we do is not explained at this barn to me at all. I feel like I'm just going along for the ride, instead of understanding the horse and communicating effectively what I want to do. It gets frustrating because I feel like I'm constantly having an argument with my horse.



I will definitely be saving up for private. This barn charges very high rates, and the private lesson quotes are even higher, so it might take a while, but in the meantime I will be experimenting on my own during the lesson. I'm currently a grad student, so money's on the tight side, but hopefully once I finish school and get a job, I can afford to maybe even lease my own horse, and take private lessons more often.





Jolly101 said:


> Firstly, I think I saw you mentioned that you prefer one instructor over the other? If so, would it be possible to contact her directly and book a lesson with her only (make that emphasized) on a lesson by lesson basis? On that same note, you could request to ride the same horse for a few weeks, so you are able to get some consistency. Another thing you could do is to set goals (such as fixing one aspect of your position in a lesson or two) and then have a chat with your instructor to discuss and implement a plan to move towards your goal.



My regular coach is the one I like! It was the sub coach that was giving me problems but I don't expect to be dealing with her anytime soon (phew). I don't know how much luck I would have to request the same horse, but I can see if I can get a certain horse more often. I should talk to my instructor about my goals for sure. I reviewed them today before my lesson, but just on my own.




Jolly101 said:


> Something you could do outside of lessons to improve is some homework.



No worries there, I do this plenty already! I relied heavily on extra homework to figure out how to post on the correct diagonal, and thanks to the Julie Goodnight videos I discovered how to use the seat.


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

Sounds like a great update. Glad the hoof tip about going with their movement so they don't feel trapped helped.

The rest will come with time and practice. It is a shame you do not have a good coach to help out, but just keep watching lots of videos and experimenting.

I used to ride a lesson horse that was terrible at cutting corners and I had to put on a lot of inside leg at the corners (really turn my toe out and heel in) and make sure I did not give away the contact on the outside rein. I think an instruction that helped me was to make sure that as much contact as I put on the inside rein to open for the turn, I needed to have that much contact on the outside rein but holding it steady in position. To do this, my coach said to think about the outside rein going back toward my body a little so that I did not either drop the contact on it (I had a tendency to let that outside hand go forward) or cross it over. At the same time, I had to give the horse firm leg pressure on the inside. And to start doing this just before the corner before the horse started trying to cut in.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

So glad to hear you feel things are improving! As I think I mentioned, I think your canter and hands will come together more in time, it just takes repetition. The more you do it, the more comfortable you feel, the more your balance improves and the better your steering and corners will become. The more you sit up and deep in the saddle the less your horse will lose balance and tend to turn in sharp around corners.
All the best!


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

OP (reading from your first post), I am in a similar situation as you are currently concerning my main barn. It is difficult working with multiple lazy or hard to handle school horses. It is also not too easy to find a schooling barn that has stellar horses all the time. The more hours in the saddle you get , the better you'll be--but arguably, bad horses will wreck havoc on your equitation, riding and confidence..

I second private lessons, or leasing a good horse if you can afford it. Sometimes the only way to get around bad school horses is to 1.) request/get first dibs, 2.)lease, 3.) own your own horse. If not, then you can try to find a different barn eventually, but until then, I would absorb all the tips and tricks that are being touted here, as well as reputable trainers (I also like Julie Goodnight!)-- even if you have to write down tips in a notebook so you can always go back to them. Heck, I'm just now starting to do this and it really is reassuring. You might not be able to 're-train' a sour school horse, but you can always try to adjust your riding and see what can be accomplished. 

And let me tell you....frustration will be a part of that process at times. I'm going trough the motions now, but try not to be too disheartened. Progress is slow going at times.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

MeditativeRider said:


> I used to ride a lesson horse that was terrible at cutting corners and I had to put on a lot of inside leg at the corners (really turn my toe out and heel in) and make sure I did not give away the contact on the outside rein. I think an instruction that helped me was to make sure that as much contact as I put on the inside rein to open for the turn, I needed to have that much contact on the outside rein but holding it steady in position. To do this, my coach said to think about the outside rein going back toward my body a little so that I did not either drop the contact on it (I had a tendency to let that outside hand go forward) or cross it over. At the same time, I had to give the horse firm leg pressure on the inside. And to start doing this just before the corner before the horse started trying to cut in.



Is it not the case to have the outside rein be more open, and the inside rein be more closed? I had thought that while the leg is used to push the horse out, the inside rein should cut off access while the outside rein should be more open?


I think for turns, it seems to me there are three things I need to do. I need to use the outside leg to push the horse to turn, the inside rein to open more and the outside rein to close towards the neck. I think what's also important is having a good posture, and to use my seat and chest to turn in the direction that my face is looking, so that the seat tells the horse to move that way. The only problem is that during the trot, the seat isn't connected to the saddle while posting, so I don't know if that means I should still turn my upper body slightly in the direction I want to turn.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

Finalcanter said:


> OP (reading from your first post), I am in a similar situation as you are currently concerning my main barn. It is difficult working with multiple lazy or hard to handle school horses. It is also not too easy to find a schooling barn that has stellar horses all the time. The more hours in the saddle you get , the better you'll be--but arguably, bad horses will wreck havoc on your equitation, riding and confidence..
> 
> I second private lessons, or leasing a good horse if you can afford it. Sometimes the only way to get around bad school horses is to 1.) request/get first dibs, 2.)lease, 3.) own your own horse. If not, then you can try to find a different barn eventually, but until then, I would absorb all the tips and tricks that are being touted here, as well as reputable trainers (I also like Julie Goodnight!)-- even if you have to write down tips in a notebook so you can always go back to them. Heck, I'm just now starting to do this and it really is reassuring. You might not be able to 're-train' a sour school horse, but you can always try to adjust your riding and see what can be accomplished.
> 
> And let me tell you....frustration will be a part of that process at times. I'm going trough the motions now, but try not to be too disheartened. Progress is slow going at times.



Funny enough, I started a notebook today! I wrote down a list of things I struggle with, and of those things that I've finally gotten solutions for, I wrote those down too. I am so glad for the posters here, I feel like many of my questions have been answered in a logical way that makes so much sense, that it's almost hard to go back to my bad habits!


You are right. I feel like on one hand, while it's frustrating to work around difficult horse behaviours, I would probably not learn quite this much if all I got were agreeable horses, so there is a silver lining there. I feel like even from this lesson today, I was testing new things and absorbing so much. I'm going to come up with a new lesson plan for next week of new things to try (turns are next on my list to tackle, I want to try and get responsive turns every time). This is of course where a leased horse would be handy-- what I feel I'm missing most is being able to get on a horse by myself and trying some stuff on my own to get the hang of what the posters here and Julie Goodnight are trying to explain to me.


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

tinytrees11 said:


> Is it not the case to have the outside rein be more open, and the inside rein be more closed? I had thought that while the leg is used to push the horse out, the inside rein should cut off access while the outside rein should be more open?
> 
> 
> I think for turns, it seems to me there are three things I need to do. I need to use the outside leg to push the horse to turn, the inside rein to open more and the outside rein to close towards the neck. I think what's also important is having a good posture, and to use my seat and chest to turn in the direction that my face is looking, so that the seat tells the horse to move that way. The only problem is that during the trot, the seat isn't connected to the saddle while posting, so I don't know if that means I should still turn my upper body slightly in the direction I want to turn.


The inside rein opening yes and the outside rein blocking. 

I am terrible at describing things in words as I am very visual spatial. Pretty much "make your horse look like a banana" means more to me as an instruction than do X, Y, Z with your legs and hands, lol. But pretty much the main things with this corner cutting horse were inside leg on strongly and really focusing not giving away the contact on the outside rein. 

If you use your inside leg, they are going to bend around it (think banana), and if they are a corner cutter, inside leg will help push them out as well. I have not ridden a horse that I would use the outside leg to push around a turn (not sure if you mean the leg is turning them or just promoting forward motion there), but maybe the horses you are riding are trained differently. If you are using lots of outside leg and not much inside leg, then that could be contributing to the corner cutting.

And yes, always look and turn your body slightly to where you want to go. As you would if you were riding a bike. If you are looking up and around to where you want to do, that should do the upper body positioning for you (i.e., it would be pretty hard to look around a corner and keep your upper body straight on).


Maybe these articles will describe it better than me:
https://www.horselistening.com/2017...between-the-inside-rein-and-the-outside-rein/

https://www.horselistening.com/2016/11/30/inside-leg-to-outside-rein-the-cheat-sheet/


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

tinytrees11 said:


> Is it not the case to have the outside rein be more open, and the inside rein be more closed? I had thought that while the leg is used to push the horse out, the inside rein should cut off access while the outside rein should be more open?
> 
> 
> I think for turns, it seems to me there are three things I need to do. I need to use the outside leg to push the horse to turn, the inside rein to open more and the outside rein to close towards the neck. I think what's also important is having a good posture, and to use my seat and chest to turn in the direction that my face is looking, so that the seat tells the horse to move that way. The only problem is that during the trot, the seat isn't connected to the saddle while posting, so I don't know if that means I should still turn my upper body slightly in the direction I want to turn.



Hm...I was not taught to turn that way in my experiences, A horse moves away from your leg pressure, so using the outside leg while using the inside rein sends mixed signals (the horse is moving his body away from your leg but you are bending his head in the same direction with the inside rein). 

If a horse is cutting a corner you would make him get closer to that corner by putting your pressure cue with your inside leg, while keeping your outside rein open and your inside rein close to 'push' him over to the wall side of the arena (I _believe _this is called a leg yield). On a good horse, all you need is your leg, but op is dealing with a criminal corner cutter. If you just want to turn, it's: move the horses head by guiding the inside rein towards your hip, apply your inside leg so the horse curls around it. You should have the horse move in a circle that way, or in any direction you want.

This is how I was taught anyway, english style..


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

I mean if I want to cut across the arena. So say if I want to cut halfway down the arena by turning right, I'd need to use my left leg and open my right hand out, while closing the right rein towards the neck. This is what I'm struggling with, in addition to the corner cutting, because when I want to cut across, there's always some slow pony in the lesson I get stuck behind, and trying to get my horse to stop following the pony is impossible, as he will fight me to cut across the arena and ignore my wishes. When I am asking the horse to make a decision that doesn't require him to be on autopilot, following whoever is in front of him, I'm often met with strong resistance.


Edit: sorry guys I suck at explaining.


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

Finalcanter said:


> Hm...I was not taught to turn that way in my experiences, A horse moves away from your leg pressure, so using the outside leg while using the inside rein sends mixed signals (the horse is moving his body away from your leg but you are bending his head in the same direction with the inside rein).
> 
> If a horse is cutting a corner you would make him get closer to that corner by putting your pressure cue with your inside leg, while keeping your outside rein open and your inside rein close to 'push' him over to the wall side of the arena (I _believe _this is called a leg yield). On a good horse, all you need is your leg, but op is dealing with a criminal corner cutter. If you just want to turn, it's: move the horses head by guiding the inside rein towards your hip, apply your inside leg so the horse curls around it. You should have the horse move in a circle that way, or in any direction you want.
> 
> This is how I was taught anyway, english style..



Yes, I think in my head I kind of consider turning and corner cutting to be sort of similar. So basically, to prevent a corner cut, I am pushing the horse outwards with my inside leg, while using the inside rein as a barrier, and opening the outside rein. 



For the turn, I want to do sort of the opposite, yes? To cut across the arena, for example, or to make a circle, I need to use my outside leg to turn the horse, while opening the inside rein and closing the outside rein? You mention using my inside leg in a turn? I was taught to use my outside leg... How does the horse know that he's supposed to move away from the inside leg? MeditativeRider posted some articles, which I read just now that mention this, but I don't know how the horse would figure this out? Does he just know?


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

Oooh now you have added in left and right, my visual spatial and left/right issues mean that my brain has just exploded. Sorry I will be of no help. My coach instructing me involves a lot of "make this shape" and "go that way", lol.

Do you practice doing circles? Perhaps practicing doing some good circles (so making them a nice circular shape) and spiraling them in and out using leg pressure might help you get the right body awareness for what you need to be doing with the aids to do turns.


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

tinytrees11 said:


> For the turn, I want to do sort of the opposite, yes? To cut across the arena, for example, or to make a circle, I need to use my outside leg to turn the horse, while opening the inside rein and closing the outside rein? You mention using my inside leg in a turn? I was taught to use my outside leg...


For the leg, this is very different to what I have been taught. What did your coach say the outside leg does for the turn? Are they meaning it to actually turn the horse or just to provide forward momentum and then you have other aids that are making the turn.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

It always amazes me how things are taught! My brain too has been fried with all the left,right,outside, inside haha!
I agree with @MeditativeRider, I'd like to know the coach's explanation. 

But on that note:


> So basically, to prevent a corner cut, I am pushing the horse outwards with my inside leg, while using the inside rein as a barrier, and opening the outside rein.


Yep! This is how I would do it, and how I would teach it. 


> To cut across the arena, for example, or to make a circle, I need to use my outside leg to turn the horse, while opening the inside rein and closing the outside rein? You mention using my inside leg in a turn? I was taught to use my outside leg.


Alright, so you were taught in a different way I guess. I hope the articles can help!


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

MeditativeRider said:


> For the leg, this is very different to what I have been taught. What did your coach say the outside leg does for the turn? Are they meaning it to actually turn the horse or just to provide forward momentum and then you have other aids that are making the turn.



Sorry I disappeared for a while!


The coach said to use the outside leg to turn the horse into the arena from the track when making a circle because horses move away from leg pressure. By applying pressure with the outside leg, the horse will move in the opposite direction by curving away from the leg. The inside leg would only tell the horse to move closer to the arena wall. So I suppose I'm surprised that horses can understand the opposite thing! I've been doing it the way that the coach taught me because logically it made sense, but I don't know if it's the "right" way.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It sounds like you are taking hunt seat lessons.


I think, seriously, if you were to take 6 months of dressage lessons you would benefit a lot in terms of how to keep your horse more straight, not falling into the arena, etc. 

Then go back to hunt seat and jumping. Both disciplines give great training to a rider, just in different ways.


If the horse is cutting the corner, he is leaning over, much like a horse might do in barrel racing, or cutting, etc. This is a very normal way for a horse to move quickly around a corner, but, it literally requires the horse to speed up, since he is 'falling' around the corner, and if he doesn't speed up, he will fall over sideways. This is likely why your horse gets faster and faster, leaning and cutting corners and making your feel out of control.


The classical dressage use of the inside leg as a 'support', around which the horse 'bends' (bananas if you like), is part of the use of cues to get the horse to slow a bit, reach more under with the inside rear leg, thus carry a bit more push on it, and most importantly, keep his shoulders more upright. No lean.


If you used the inside leg, without the support of the outside rein, It would encourage a trained horse to move sideways, away from the inside leg, toward the outer ring of the arena.


But, you use the INSIDE rein to suggest to the horse that he think inside the curve, that he soften his jaw and poll so that he flexs his head just a bit to the inside, and the outside rein becomes a bit more firm, both asking for the horse to NOT speed up, and by soft pressure agains the neck, asks the horse to step it's front legs to the inside. Becuase the outside rein does not lengthen, the horse cannot really swing it's head strongly to the inside, instead, it must lift it's head a bit, soften at the jaw and flex to the inside from the poll.


does any of this start to make sense to you?


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## tinytrees11 (Oct 4, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> It sounds like you are taking hunt seat lessons.
> 
> I think, seriously, if you were to take 6 months of dressage lessons you would benefit a lot in terms of how to keep your horse more straight, not falling into the arena, etc.
> 
> Then go back to hunt seat and jumping. Both disciplines give great training to a rider, just in different ways.



I will ask tomorrow during my lesson to see if I can do that. I don't know if it would be possible for me to be moved to a dressage class, and you're right about the hunt seat as almost every class we are practicing jumps. 




tinyliny said:


> If the horse is cutting the corner, he is leaning over, much like a horse might do in barrel racing, or cutting, etc. This is a very normal way for a horse to move quickly around a corner, but, it literally requires the horse to speed up, since he is 'falling' around the corner, and if he doesn't speed up, he will fall over sideways. This is likely why your horse gets faster and faster, leaning and cutting corners and making your feel out of control.
> 
> 
> The classical dressage use of the inside leg as a 'support', around which the horse 'bends' (bananas if you like), is part of the use of cues to get the horse to slow a bit, reach more under with the inside rear leg, thus carry a bit more push on it, and most importantly, keep his shoulders more upright. No lean.
> ...



Yes. I think I understand. I read a few more articles about how to achieve this, and I will also ask my coach about this tomorrow. When I turn like this, is there any specific placement of my leg that I need to have? Or do I simply move the outside rein in to touch the neck, open the inside rein, and apply pressure with the inside leg? I'm assuming I don't need to pull my hands-- the horse will just know. I also read that the outside leg should somehow prevent the horse's hindquarters from going out or something, to keep him aligned and straight, but I don't know how much pressure to apply-- if the pressure from both legs is even, or if the outside leg is only there to correct anything wrong. The articles weren't clear about this. I want to try this tomorrow to see what happens. Also, say if I'm able to do dressage techniques by transferring to a different class, are these skills still transferrable to a hunt seat class?


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