# Parelli Level 4 Finesse.. what do you see???



## paintsrule (Aug 20, 2009)

Looks like what anyone with a well trained horse could do with out having to audition for the success or approve it with the all knowing leader. Or without spending thousands of dollars to buy something they could have figured out through expierence and a GOOD hands on trainer to guide them, and hey, maybe there horse would be happy.

But hey that right thurr is savvy, they even bought the thousand dollar t shirt, or should I say carrot stick.

Snaps for them.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He doesn't look so bad. A little bit unbalanced on that second time she asked for the lope (hence the flipping head) but looks like an enjoyable little horse to ride. There are a couple times when he looks a little sluggish to her leg but that might be nothing. His stops are a little squishy for my taste but I guess not everyone wants their horse to plant their butt the instant they cue for it LOL. He is a cute little horse and they fit well together but they didn't do much that I would consider terribly advanced. I did most of those things yesterday while working cattle.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I thought they did a beautiful job. A couple times the rider's upper body could have been more engaged but other than that, wonderful ride.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

What finesse level are you when you can do it with out hanging on the reins. I have 3 horses that could do everything on that video but without taking the slack out of the reins.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Hope she sticks to the 80/20 % rule!*

Parelli says one should not spend more than 20% of riding time on a contact rein, to his credit. I was thinking, also, that she could do what she did there on a loose rein, but maybe it's to prove horse accepts bit.


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## IllComeALopin (Apr 6, 2010)

I was not aware that in Parelli Level 4 Finesse you could use spurs...

so; are those special Parelli spurs, or just normal spurs?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Northern said:


> Parelli says one should not spend more than 20% of riding time on a contact rein, to his credit. I was thinking, also, that she could do what she did there on a loose rein, but maybe it's to prove horse accepts bit.


How do they do dressage then? I thought Linda was now saying dressage is a good thing and the basis of dressage is contact and accepting the bit.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> How do they do dressage then? I thought Linda was now saying dressage is a good thing and the basis of dressage is contact and accepting the bit.


I can't imagine riding _any_ English discipline without having direct contact, especially dressage.

I imagine ole Pat is talking about Western riding, where the idea is to be on a loose rein.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, some Parelli party line has changed (like re: helmets), but I don't think the 80/20 rule has changed. PP said _whatever_ specialization you practice, (that'd include Linda doing dressage) the contact rein should be only 20% of the time.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Northern said:


> Well, some Parelli party line has changed (like re: helmets), but I don't think the 80/20 rule has changed. PP said _whatever_ specialization you practice, (that'd include Linda doing dressage) the contact rein should be only 20% of the time.


The Mustachioed One doesn't ride _*any*_ English disciplines, so how can he possibly have any clue what's correct or not concerning contact?

Linda 'does' dressage about as well as I 'do' barrel racing. :rofl:


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Speed Racer, stay off the Parelli sub-forum *

Riding Western doesn't preclude one from knowing the effects of "contact" or loose reins, on the horse. Now, about those goofy moustachios so many "cowboys" sport: WHY, WHY, WHY?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Northern said:


> Well, some Parelli party line has changed (like re: helmets), but I don't think the 80/20 rule has changed. PP said _whatever_ specialization you practice, (that'd include Linda doing dressage) the contact rein should be only 20% of the time.



Then she is not doing dressage. Period! The same way it is not really dressage with out a bit. The most basic principal of dressage is accepting the bit and that contact.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Very nice horse/rider team, I enjoyed watching the video. They could stand to learn a bit more about impulsion and working from the hind end forwards, but all in all, it was a pleasant video to watch.
Here's my criticism: What is level 4 in the grand scheme of things? I didn't see anything "wow" there; it was pretty, to be sure, but I was under the impression level 4 is getting up there in the pyramid of Parelli. They have a great base, but still have a ways to go before their performance is "wow." 
Northern, if you would look at any English discipline, you're looking at the horse being on the bit (with contact) the entire ride, and that is correct. Even on a loose rein taking a break they are supposed to be on the bit. Saying otherwise is incorrect.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> I thought they did a beautiful job. A couple times the rider's upper body could have been more engaged but other than that, wonderful ride.


Unfortunately there was no finesse in this ride.

Lacked impulsion, and was crooked through 90% of the ride. It appeared to be a horse ready for training level dressage test with a few extra movements thrown in and them being done at a 40 % dressage score level.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Ok, I'll try to clarify*

1) PP's 80/20 means Linda's _practicing dressage _only 20% of her riding time.
2) the second poster, you refer to "contact" rein both during a discipline (so far, so good) but then, "even when on loose rein, should be on contact" - ? If you mean, that even at rest, after the discipline session's over, the horse should be held on "contact" rein, I disagree. I agree with loose rein as much as possible, for the horse's mouth. I've already posted on other thread that the unnecessary "contact" is incrementally diminishing the horse's mouth, & no one has given me any _facts_ proving it isn't so. (Please back up claims with reasons/facts; why should you be listened to otherwise?)
3) I get uncomfortable around "contact" people anyway, because so often, they're interfering with the horse's movement, rather than helping the horse in hand. I really enjoy seeing a human stay out of the way on a loose rein & let the horse do its job, like in cutting.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't ride english but I do believe there is a huge difference between being "on the bit" like JDI said and having contact. A horse can be on the bit with the reins hanging slack, it is all a matter of training.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

When I let my horse walk on a "loose rein" I will ask them to come to the bridle and follow my rein to the ground. They hold themselves round, and continue to march forwards from the hind end first. They are still round, they are still carrying themselves. 


> I've already posted on other thread that the unnecessary "contact" is incrementally diminishing the horse's mouth, & no one has given me any facts proving it isn't so.


Conversely -- can you provide proof that a horse ridden correctly on contact will diminish the horse's mouth? I have never heard that, or experienced it myself. There is a distinct difference between "contact" and a person hauling on the horse's mouth though; perhaps there's some confusion there? 



> I get uncomfortable around "contact" people anyway, because so often, they're interfering with the horse's movement, rather than helping the horse in hand. I really enjoy seeing a human stay out of the way on a loose rein & let the horse do its job, like in cutting.


I'm sorry, but if a person is ruining a horse's mouth by asking for contact, and if they are interfering with the horse's movement, they are *doing it wrong.* In English disciplines, you MUST maintain contact unless specified - there is nothing wrong with this, it is not detrimental to the horse, nor does it interfere with the horse's natural movement - quite the opposite actually...


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

What Pat means about the whole 80/20 ratio is that you shouldn't focus on Finesse riding (contact) more than Freestyle (loose reins, brideless, etc). It has nothing to do with the length of time you hold the reins.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

are you sure..................?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes, I am sure


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Easily proven, the 20/80 rule of PP..*

Simply find out from PP materials/call or write to them if you can't find the subject in the materials. Re: "contact" rein diminishing horses' mouths, the proof of the veracity of the statement is given only by the horse itself! The only way one is going to know anything for sure is to listen to & learn from_ the horse_! Tom Dorrance said that _everything_ he learned, he learned from_ the horse_! You might ask why I post, then: I post in the hope that people will check out a subject of horsemanship_ with their horses_, because they care enough about them to want to be 100% sure that they're doing the right thing with them.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Northern said:


> Simply find out from PP materials/call or write to them if you can't find the subject in the materials. Re: "contact" rein diminishing horses' mouths, the proof of the veracity of the statement is given only by the horse itself! The only way one is going to know anything for sure is to listen to & learn from_ the horse_! Tom Dorrance said that _everything_ he learned, he learned from_ the horse_! You might ask why I post, then: I post in the hope that people will check out a subject of horsemanship_ with their horses_, because they care enough about them to want to be 100% sure that they're doing the right thing with them.


I'm sorry, I still do not understand at all why you think that a horse being on contact diminishes the horse's mouth...? In English disciplines, the horse is expected to accept and actually seek the rider's contact - it is considered correct. We are not punishing our horses, we do listen to our horses. I am wondering if YOU yourself have resources that prove that a horse being on contact is detrimental?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I can only ask you to re-read my post -_ the horse will show you if you listen_ - plus repeat what I said in prior post that what *passes* as "contact" is so often in fact interference with the horse's movement & energy, rollkur being an extreme & therefore obvious example of that. I_ didn't_ say, nor am I of the opinion, that there's no place for proper in-hand riding! Why are you telling me that you do listen to your horse? Saying it proves nothing! Rather than_ telling me_ you love your horse, see to it that he knows it!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Northern said:


> -_ the horse will show you if you listen_ -


Deal! I will go with that.

When I add leg to my horse the first thing he does is reach for the bit. Looking for contact. Even if my reins are long.

So, I am listening. He has told me. Pushes from behind, rounds his back and looks for contact.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Northern said:


> I can only ask you to re-read my post -_ the horse will show you if you listen_ - plus repeat what I said in prior post that what *passes* as "contact" is so often in fact interference with the horse's movement & energy, rollkur being an extreme & therefore obvious example of that. I_ didn't_ say, nor am I of the opinion, that there's no place for proper in-hand riding! Why are you telling me that you do listen to your horse? Saying it proves nothing! Rather than_ telling me_ you love your horse, see to it that he knows it!


I am oh-so-very confused with your posts, Northern.... I have no idea what we're talking about. Rollkur is not correct contact. I'm not talking about extreme contact, as that is not correct. *Correct* contact is in no way detrimental to the horse, nor does it hinder movement whatsoever. 
The reason I said something about my horse is that you asked it of me...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I thought it was a cute horse and not a bad ride. Not overly impressive but it was pleasent to watch. That horse has a lot more training then just natural horsemanship. If you look closely he's actually got some spur training going on. I see nothing wrong with mixing training techniques which is what this rider is doing.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Even though she is riding with contact, he looks like he has been trained more western than english. Some of how he moves reminds me of WP training.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

smrobs said:


> i don't ride english but i do believe there is a huge difference between being "on the bit" like jdi said and having contact. A horse can be on the bit with the reins hanging slack, it is all a matter of training.


thank you!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted by smrobs
> i don't ride english but i do believe there is a huge difference between being "on the bit" like jdi said and having contact. A horse can be on the bit with the reins hanging slack, it is all a matter of training


I'm quoting this again, because smrobs had an excellent point in saying this -- Northern, this is what we're getting at.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

Thunderhooves - I'm sorry, but you need to treat others with more respect. I don't know how old you are, but honestly, to be talking to others like this is just plain rude.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Northern said:


> Simply find out from PP materials/call or write to them if you can't find the subject in the materials. Re: "contact" rein diminishing horses' mouths, the proof of the veracity of the statement is given only by the horse itself! The only way one is going to know anything for sure is to listen to & learn from_ the horse_! Tom Dorrance said that _everything_ he learned, he learned from_ the horse_! You might ask why I post, then: I post in the hope that people will check out a subject of horsemanship_ with their horses_, because they care enough about them to want to be 100% sure that they're doing the right thing with them.


(Roll eyes here) And there's actually a thread asking why people like to jump down Parelli people's throats??? Because you see life through a straw! Parelli is one training method. It is not THE training method. Please show me in what official training manual in any discipline that does NOT have the name Parelli anywhere on it, says that contact must be applied only 20% of the time? My horse would go nuts if I dropped him without warning 80% of the time during our rides. It was also be insanely dangerous for me if a car backfired or a deer came running by at a time when I was just up there plodding along as a passenger instead of actively riding. You rant and rave that people are not training their horses the way that you see fit and have the nerve to suggest they do not care about their horses??? If you want to use this PP stuff, that's your choice. It does not give you the right to throw tantrums on people who don't see through your eyes. The second you believe there is only one way to train a horse is the second you stop growing as a horseperson.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

keep in mind that not all people do that, this is why that thread was made...look in the mirror, you too are ranting & raving.... feel free to speak your mind, but you dont have to be so rude about it...


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> keep in mind that not all people do that, =


Do what? I'm simply answering the question that you all keep asking and also asking that she offer up some concrete evidence to back up the training theory that she so completely supports to the point of insulting the rest of us who disagree with it. I don't see where that is rude. My question is to only the person I addressed it to. She's free to answer it or ignore it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm with gypsygirl, not all Parelli people say that anyone who doesn't follow PNH abuses their horses and all that stuff. I certainly don't say that. I have never said that....and I'm a loyal follower of the program. IMO Parelli is a darn good way to train a horse...maybe I could say I think it's the best way, seeing as I chose it and I'm not one to be easily convinced....however that doesn't mean I think other ways are bad. Nor do I look down on those who choose not to follow it. What I DO look down on are those who bash me for MY choice and tell me I'm mediocre and all that crap. I think it's pretty rude to take ALL Parelli students and lump them into the statistic that they are like that because it's certainly not true. At all. Sure there are training techniques I do not agree with and will never use, but everyone has their own opinions. It's not closed minded to say, "After much thought, I don't agree with ______ and I choose not to use it in my training." I always ask myself, "Is it in the best interest of the horse?" If so, then I'm supportive of it. If not, I disagree with it. That simple.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I havent read all the posts.
I have heard parelli say some things that i agree with, but everyone has to remember... plenty of his training methods were around hundreds of years before he was, he just put them into levels and called it his own. He may have changed some stuff, but its all basically the same. I have to say one thing: always question anything a trainer says, never put your complete trust in a trainer and do every single thing they say even if its not for the horse. because THAT is when you stop progressing, or thinking for yourself. I have seen so many followers of a trainer mess up a horse because they buy the trainers dvd's and stuff, but the material just doesnt work on their horse, but they keep doing it anyway.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

All, 

At this time, it is really important that we all abide by the rules of this forum. Please treat others with respect and respect opinions. 

Thanks


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

I didn't think they were bad at all. They did exeptionally well in "my book". I do have to say that the horse did look off balance a few times, and the stops could use some improvement. Also, I don't quite like the fact that she had so much contact with the bit. A few times he was trying to ask for his head. At least her arms weren't flailing around lol that would have made it worse.


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## welshies rule (Feb 7, 2010)

I ride english not western and it could just be me but that horse looked disunited during quite a bit of that vid. how can this be good


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## IllComeALopin (Apr 6, 2010)

I think that horse looks better broke than many horses out there. They are trying, the horse is getting some form of training, and he looks fit and well fed.

Think of how many horses out there can only go left- right- somtimes stop- and streight down the trail... 
How many horses sit in backyards and just rot away with little to no care and never even get rode? 
How many people do you know with horses that rear, buck, bolt, step all over their owners.
How many horses get ridden more than once or twice a week?

How many people are willing to invest time and money into training? Into a trainer? Into proper horse care? I've seen many on this forum who are not, but I hope in their future they might have a little more and be able to, I know many really want it. 

So, at least this person is doing somthing with her horse. 
If she is giving someone the insperation and guts to try again and get out there and ride... even if you do look like a fool for a long long time, then all the better.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

IllComeALopin said:


> I think that horse looks better broke than many horses out there. They are trying, the horse is getting some form of training, and he looks fit and well fed.
> 
> Think of how many horses out there can only go left- right- somtimes stop- and streight down the trail...
> How many horses sit in backyards and just rot away with little to no care and never even get rode?
> ...


I agree.

I'm not at all a fan of Parelli, as I think that it's a fluffy, feel-good, highly over-priced and over-rated way to learn some very basic horse-handling skills.

Still, while this pair does have some work to do (I agree with the points made earlier in the thread about the "squishy" stops, etc.), at least the rider is actually doing _something_ with her horse.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Oy!*

In case this may help anyone: 1) I am not a Parelli kool-aider (a person who says only Parelli works) 2) I truly don't intend to insult people here; I've been direct, & there's a difference 3) I already know that a horse on a loose rein can be "on the bit", or accepting the bit; that's what I was talking about re: a cutting horse 4) Sharing your successes with horses is great, but telling humans, "I loooove my horse soooo much!" doesn't mean squat to the horse, who knows the truth. 5) I do agree with the 80/20 rule of thumb. I'm tired now; hope this helps clear up confusion about my views.:-|


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