# Pat Parelli's and Dennis Reis' position on Flooding



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I'd be curious too.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Some out there about it, but nothing with those two. 

And I am not a fan of it to begin with. 

And not a fan of them either.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Only speaking from many years ago, having been on the 'Parelli' wagon... I'd say the sort of technique he use(d?) for 'desensitising', while more gradual than some, was 'flooding'. He taught to allow the horse to move on the end of the line - not tie it down or such, but continue the 'stimuli' regardless of the horse's behaviour/emotion, until the horse finally quit reacting.

NB. I just remembered, a fair few years back I saw a newer vid of his on desensitisation & they(think Linda was the main person in it) advised to start 'desensitising' from a distance or intensity that only made the horse mildly uncomfortable, using 'approach & retreat' to get them comfortable with that before doing it at gradually closer/bigger intensity. I remember thinking nice they changed that...


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I would call Dennis Ries and ask him. Parelli....maybe an email....


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Out of interest Harold, what's your friend doing that's bugging you so much? Perhaps a general(not by Parelli) article on psychology & effects of 'flooding'. Perhaps one that compares it to other methods. Might give them enough 'food for thought'.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

It's a technique for curing people of crippling phobias. And it works. My issue would be, horses don't actually have irrational phobias. What they have is, I don't know, a whole lifestyle built around pre-fearing stuff. It's a successful evolutionary strategy which is encoded into them. Horse training is kind of built around that inescapable fact. I'm not sure what flooding would add to the techniques already used.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> Out of interest Harold, what's your friend doing that's bugging you so much? Perhaps a general(not by Parelli) article on psychology & effects of 'flooding'. Perhaps one that compares it to other methods. Might give them enough 'food for thought'.


Remember my first post on Willing Compliance or Aversive Reflex where I was being introduced to the round pen? Twirl rope, see him move, he knows if he doesn't I'll hit him.

Same person. New colt that "could" be a most remarkable horse is being tied until she quits fighting. She loves people and and is a real doll but for how long?

This is a person that is 59 YO and has a picture as a 3 YO wearing the same chaps that the father wore and is pictured with the exact same chaps as a 3 YO also. Born on horses. Taught in the old way but has leaned over to NH, or at least the part that preserves the old ways.

So it'll take someone that has already been bought into to make an impression. Pat or Dennis.

Sadly as I recall, my opinion is that Pat's snaking the rope at a horse that can't escape until the horse gives up and smacks his lips, (something all NH loves), is actually flooding to my understanding so I may not get much help from Pat. This person thinks snaking a rope at a horse is the best thing since sliced bread.

If I had a colt of my own, I would attempt to complete the major portions of training in a field without halter or rope. Zero confinement.

That could be done with this particular colt at this point, I believe.

@greentree I may do just exactly as you suggest if all else fails. I'd just love to find a magazine article where either rails against the perils of flooding.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yes, it still is used, on people too Avna, and CAN be effective. But often has the same sorts of 'side effects' as with horses - 'shell shocked' or 'shut down' kinds of emotions/reactions. Lock me in a small room full of spiders & I'm sure I'd self combust... whether or not I was eventually 'desensitised' as well... 

I recently saw a vid of 'modern' police horse training(think maybe Houston) & they have started to move away from flooding even for that.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Maybe this will help explain the difference between systematic and flooding.
equineinsanity.blogspot.com/2010/03/flooding.html
Not sure I did that right


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When I think of a prime example of flooding, it would be Foal imprinting ,as per Dr Miller, which has received lots of negative feedback, since the time it was so embraced by many, esp endorsed by a vet
If you are talking of endless sacking out, trying to expose a horse to everything he might encounter-again, not a fan. I do very littlle, including that tarp work, which many think is so important in starting any young horse
Get a horse well started, and he will walk over that tarp while ridden-even for the first time

However, I do some basic sacking out. I have learned to lunge a colt with a slicker drapped over him, take it on and off, while mounted, before needing to do so, for the first time, on a trail ride, during a downpour, with thunder booming away!
First time I clip a horse, I use the advance and retreat, until the hrose accepts it, and realizes those clippers won't either hurt him, nor am I going to just leave a clip job half done, or not at all
First time I bathe a horse, I use a long lead shank, or even a lunge line, and hold the horse with one hand, rather then tie him. I start at the feet, but the horse learns dancing around gets him nowhere, and he will be bathed
So< i guess you need to explain exactly what you call 'flooding'
There is exposing ahorse to something he is afraid of, in an advance and retreat method, rewarding, taking pressure off at the right time ect, and then there is what I regard true flooding, as was done in the good ole days, where a horse was hobbled, using three way hobbles, and then just sacked out, unable to flee, until he became like that mouse a cat has played with, who does not even attempt to escape any longer, or that deer in the headlights


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@Blue, that is not flooding, that is abuse. The proper reaction to flooding is that the subject quickly becomes inured to the stimulus because nothing ever happens. The trainer in question isn't causing the horse to become inured, he is causing the horse to shut down and stop trying to escape because he can't. That is emotionally very damaging to any sentient being. This is a good example of why it is so hard to set up flooding so that it accomplishes the goal, an animal who is unreactive and relaxed when exposed to the stimulus, because it has internalized how harmless it is. 

Since it is hard enough to learn how to desensitize using tried and true methods, it seems very dangerous to try out a new technique with such a capacity to go very wrong. I would think horses would be one of the worst candidate species for flooding. Maybe sheep would be worse. 

I am with Smilie, I think teaching "forward when I say forward" is a much greater tool than any desensitization, horses being so very willing to invent new reasons to be fearful. But there are times to try something else, as well. I related in another thread how I had accidentally made trailer loading for my mare into a battle ground, and how, in order to walk us both back from that, I had to spend about a month just letting her learn that I was not going to force her into the trailer nor trap her in there once she went in of her own accord. AFTER she was convinced that the trailer was a pleasant safe space (desensitization after a lot of bad experiences takes time), I went back to the 'go forward when I say forward' -- and it was a very short calm happy lesson in trailer loading.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm not familiar with the term flooding, but it sounds like the technique would dull up a horse to pressure and stimuli. I've helped rehome a couple supposed Parelli trained horses that behaved that way. They weren't reactive, but also weren't responsive either.
I would rather have a horse that has learned to listen to me.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Blue said:


> Maybe this will help explain the difference between systematic and flooding.
> equineinsanity.blogspot.com/2010/03/flooding.html
> Not sure I did that right


I read that today. Subscribed in fact. Here is a clickable link to it.



https://clickerhappyhorse.wordpress...-training-what-it-is-and-how-to-recognise-it/

Here is another good read. I saved it in my email drafts. Don't have the link. It's long but very descriptive.

Flooding
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. ~Alexander Solzhenitsyn


The horse stood in the center aisle of the barn, his ears alert and his eyes kind. He was a recent purchase from Germany, a three year old warm blood with “issues” as the owner delicately described him to the natural horsemanship trainer she had called for help. 

“He’s extremely fearful of the whip or any other object held in a hand. He grows even more anxious when this object is brought closer him, especially over his back. Touching him with it is completely out of question. “

“Really,” the trainer said, “looks like we have a candidate for desensitizing. How is he under saddle?” 

“Same thing, I can’t ride with a whip, and if I move around too much in the saddle, he bolts forward.” 

The instructor, a calm and determined looking man with an air of competence about him, led the horse into the arena in a rope halter. 

After smacking the horse a few times with the end of the long lead rope to establish “reaction and respect” as the trainer explained, he started what he called the desensitizing process. 

He held the whip next to the horse, about a foot away from his flanks and started moving it up and down aggressively, making a swishing noise as if he was going to hit the horse. The horse spun around frantically trying to get away from the whip, but the man was quicker and stayed with the horse, constantly moving the whip in an aggressive fashion while pulling the horse’s head to the inside, forcing him on a small circle. The whip whistled through the air. Finally, after spinning around several times, the horse slowed down a fraction. The man slowed down the whip as well. Soon the horse stopped. He shook from head to toe, his skin vibrating all over like it was getting poked by a thousand needles. I could see how afraid he was, but he had already realized that he could not make the whip go away, but if he stopped, he could make it slow down. He had learned that he had a choice between a bad predicament and a worse predicament, and he’d chosen the lesser evil. My heart went out to the young horse as I sat silently in the sidelines of the arena. This kind of “training” is sort of like giving a person with a fear of heights the choice of staying on the ground with man-eating alligators or climbing to “safety” up a 100 foot tree. Everyone would undoubtedly choose to climb the tree, but it wouldn’t mean they would never be afraid of heights again.

“This is really a sensitive horse, but we must teach him to stand still when he’s afraid. Then he’ll stop being afraid,” the trainer said. “Look, he is already better!”

I cared to disagree. The gelding seemed as afraid as he had been twenty minutes earlier, he was just no longer expressing his fear as he knew what the consequences were. I felt sick to my stomach. I remembered witnessing something similar in my son’s swimming class just this fall. My son has never been a great swimmer, but he’s always loved water. One morning, before leaving to school, he broke down crying and told me he didn’t want to swim with his class anymore. 

“Why is that?” I asked, surprised.

“I’m afraid of the teacher, she makes me do things.” 

“What kind of things?”

My son cried and told me that the teacher was forcing him to go to the deep end of the pool and he was afraid. He had told his teacher that he was afraid, but she hadn’t listened. Just talking about the swimming had my son in tears. I decided to drive to the pool and watch the swimming lesson that day. My son went to school relieved that finally someone was listening to him.

I watched the swimming from a balcony meant for spectators. I had no access to the pools, but at least I could observe what was causing my sons anxiety. What I witnessed broke my heart. The teacher coaxed my crying son to the edge of the 15 feet deep diving pool and then pulled him in despite his obvious resistance. My son panicked and clawing at his teacher tried to climb out of the pool. I watched in rage as the teacher pushed my son down into the water and forced him on his back for the backstroke. Sobbing and with the teacher supporting him, my son managed to make it to the other end of the pool. He clung to the side and I could see he was terrified; he thought he was fighting for his life. Which of course he was; his intense fear had pushed aside any swimming skills he had ever acquired in the seven years of his life. 

Helplessly I watched as the swim coach left my son hanging on the edge and went to work with the other kids, who had no problem swimming in the deep pool. Left alone, my son wailed in panic and gripped onto the side of the pool with dear life. He was left there, with his paralyzing fear, for a very long time until he stopped sobbing hysterically. By the time the teacher swam back to him, he was submissively waiting for her. He still was not able to swim across the pool on his own and when he finally was allowed out of the pool, I could see from his posture what kind of psychological damage had just been done before my eyes. 

In the arena the man proceeded with the "desensitizing" now touching the horse with the whip over the back. The gelding was emotionally exhausted, but there seemed to be no end to the process. After the horse “accepted” the whip, the trainer attached a plastic bag to the end of the whip and started the practice all over. 

The plastic bag prompted even stronger reactions from the horse: now he was terrified. The horse kicked at the man, reared and bucked, trying to free himself from the tight pressure of the halter. His eyes were rolling in his head as he fought to get away from the evil plastic but nothing helped; he was forever trapped on the small circle. Again, the more he moved, the stronger the pressure of the plastic and the whip became, but if he slowed down, the plastic slowed down as well. Finally the horse stood still, his hooves planted into the ground as if he had grown roots. He was breathing heavily and his whole body shook from tremors. I could see how much willpower it took from him not to move. He stood still while the plastic rested on his back, slowly moving over his skin, touching him everywhere. After 60 minutes of torment, he had climbed up the tree away from the alligators. But now he was stuck up in the tree with his fears.

So, what is the logic behind all this? After my son’s swimming lesson I had a lengthy discussions with his school and heard that the swim teacher believed that if my son was exposed to the scary thing i.e the deep pool long enough, he would have to “get over it” and learn to swim. In psychology this is not called desensitizing; it’s called flooding and is used to break extreme phobias. It is not for everybody, and with human patients the most important factor that determines the positive outcome of such a technique, is voluntary participation. Obviously this is not a prerequisite that can be fulfilled with either children or animals. In so many cases when done against one’s will flooding breaks something permanently inside the animal or person. It breaks trust. 

Unfortunately the elements that were present in my son’s swim lesson and this particular horsemanship lesson are often present in modern horse training. Ignoring the horse’s emotional state, applying significant amounts of pressure on the animal and using flooding and negative reinforcement as training tools are what horses face day after day. The trainer may not have physically abused the young gelding (apart from in the beginning when he smacked the horse with the lead rope), but in my opinion he did something even worse: abused the horse emotionally. 

But the saddest and most disheartening fact is not what this trainer did, but that he did it without realizing the effect of his actions. Despite my feelings over this issue, I can’t even begin to judge this man or other people who train their horses in this manner. I have no doubt in my mind that both the trainer and the owner of this young gelding didn’t mean to harm him; they thought they were helping him. Just like my son’s swim teacher thought she was teaching him how to swim. 

There is not a day in my life that I don’t think about this dilemma: Why can other people not see the suffering of these beautiful animals? Why can I? How can I, in an effective way, help people see what I see? 

I feel both blessed and cursed with this knowledge. Ignorance is truly bliss, and truth hurts more than words can say, but – that all said, I would never want to turn back on this path I am on. I have yet to talk to the owner of the young horse in this story. I know that when I see her again, she might ask what I thought of her trainer. I hope I can find the right words to reach her at that moment. So often I remain silent, but perhaps it’s time to speak up. The horse owner may never talk to me again, but on the other hand, she may listen.

~K


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, there are idiots everywhere,whether they call themselves NH trainers or traditional, and the way that trainer went about trying to de sensitize that hrose was absolutely wrong.
At the same time, the horse does need to learn to accept things, trust the handler/rider, versus just blowing, as a horse that blows is a ticking time bomb, thus there is ,as in everything, a middle ground approach
I saw a person have a wreak, on a 15 year old horse, simply by reaching back, and getting a plastic bag, which had his sandwich in them, out of his saddle bag
There is the gradual approach and retreat, while earning a horse's trust
Without being there, judging, evaluating the horse;s reaction, comfort level, recognizing when it is time to back off, no way I can post exactly how I would handle such a situation
You would first just handle that horse -period, and get him to trust you. Lead him, ride him, whatever.
After a time, you could just put that whip on the ground, and walk the horse around it. Once the hrose was good with that, just lead him, and perhaps drag that whip along. You can drop it, if he gets upset.
Most horses, when they start to trust you, will then let you just rub that whip over him, backing off, when he gets scared. Just a sort of outline,t aht would need modification, change in approach, with the idea you never force the hrose into blind fear based panic, where he goes into flight or fight mode, but you do eventually get the job doen, versus being afraid to ever expose the hrose to a lunge whip, afraid to ride ahorse when the wind is blowing, (just an example, where people are afraid to address the phobia a hrose might have, try to avoid any situation that might trigger that phobia, and thus risk at some point, having the horse blow, when he does have to, for some reason, deal with presence of what triggers his phobia,perhaps by someone, not knowing his issue, and that person even getting hurt, as aresult


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Blunt honesty ahead...

There are people who are exceptional at "sacking out" a horse. I assume this is the same meaning as "flooding", which I am unfamiliar with.

Take a look at what Wylene Wilson can do with a wild Mustang in 100 days. She has those horses more broke than a lot of people's horses get in a life time of ordinary horse owner trial and error. Frankly, they are more broke than most of the show horses I've seen. After about a week the round penning and flags are done, as far as I understand her magical ways, which is not much at all. 

When people ask my opinion on what horse to buy for their first, a trail horse or just want one they can trust I tell them to pick up the best veteran ranch horse they can find and afford. Why? Because these horses have been there, done that and have the t-shirt. 

There is virtually no such thing as a 12 year old spooky wild eyed ranch gelding. I think it is a worthwhile question to wonder why.

Assuming that "flooding" and "sacking out" are roughly the same concept; that is a pretty old idea. I wouldn't attribute it to the NH people, but I know they are fond of it. The famous saying is "put the horse in a bind and let them figure it out". 

My favorite coach has trained people in all disciplines and all levels. She has started several Mounted Police units and consulted on many more. I believe her position on this is that it is the rider's responsibility to use common sense, defensive horsemanship. 

My interpretation of what she means, to use an example is that you can get a horse to stand still for a chainsaw being waved around in their face. That doesn't mean they won't ever spook at a chainsaw ever again. Mounted Officers have to learn to be strong riders and leaders. Expecting the horse to behave mechanically and predictably is a fool's mission. 

In my home town there are some girls who like to ride their horses through a drive through. They ride all over, along the road. Stop and talk to their friends, and generally BS around on their horses. I can't begin to explain why those horses are more broke than the really sacked out to death horse, but they are. I think the girls don't think about how badly it could go wrong, so they end up giving their horses a lot of experience and confidence by accident. One take on it anyway. 

Long post, but interesting topic.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

From Blue's link; 


> *Desensitizing*: By repeatedly exposing a horse to low levels of its fears, and having nothing bad and preferably something good (like a treat) occur, the horse ultimately gets used to what he is afraid of.
> 
> *Flooding:* By forcing a horse to deal with something that scares it until he no longer seems fearful. Flooding teaches many scared animals that their only way out of a bad situation is to shut down. Some horses may get over their fear using this technique, but usually lose trust in the trainer during the process.


...About says it all. I was horrified to read about the poor child in the swimming pool - if that was my child, allowed or not, I would have been storming the pool, when the ABUSE was first evident!!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> So< i guess you need to explain exactly what you call 'flooding'
> There is exposing ahorse to something he is afraid of, in an advance and retreat method, rewarding, taking pressure off at the right time ect, and then there is what I regard true flooding, as was done in the good ole days, where a horse was hobbled, using three way hobbles, and then just sacked out,


Good point. IMO, it can still be 'flooding' if the horse is forced to just put up with something terrifying, whether it's with 'approach & retreat' or otherwise, such as it seemed was the horse eg in Blue's link. I suspect the guy at least thought of it as 'approach & retreat', because he lessened the scary stimuli when the horse hesitated - that is, he took some pressure of at 'the right time'.

If instead, for eg, you were to watch that horse's bodylanguage/emotional reactions & introduce the stimuli not close enough to frighten it, then gradually do more, quitting/retreating *before* it got to a 'scary' level, that is what I think of as 'correct' approach & retreat.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The part that I hooked into for defining flooding is that the desensitization has to be either voluntary or the ability to escape or flee has to be present, otherwise it's flooding. While an adult can choose to volunteer, it is questionable whether a child can under a certain age and doubtful that a horse can at all. But a horse can be provided the ability to flee and escape, and I think that is important.

I'll admit to flooding Hondo early on when trying to work with his feet. Flooding in the form of tying hard and fast and letting him struggle to no avail. One time. And then I said, "This is not right". I do all of his trimming and shoeing without being tied or even wearing a halter most of the time. Same with Rimmey. I can work on either of them out in the middle of a 60 acre field. No ropes. No halters. I'm working on that with Dragon. It's taking some time but we'll get there.

Yes @loosie, the lady was exceptional at restraint. I'm afraid the school would have either allowed me to reach the pool or called the police to escort me out.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jgnmoose said:


> Blunt honesty ahead...
> 
> There is virtually no such thing as a 12 year old spooky wild eyed ranch gelding. I think it is a worthwhile question to wonder why.


Hondo was given to me as a 14 YO ranch horse and had been on this ranch for 7 years.

I was told he was not safe to ride above a walk. He is the only horse on the ranch that unseated one veteran rider on the ranch and that was at a walk.

@bsms is struggling with a veteran ranch horse.

I will answer the worthwhile question for this ranch and I would guess for others as well. A cattle ranch simple gets rid of any horses that are spooky and wild eyed. They keep the good ones and get rid of the rest.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Hondo said:


> The part that I hooked into for defining flooding is that the desensitization has to be either voluntary or the ability to escape or flee has to be present, otherwise it's flooding. While an adult can choose to volunteer, it is questionable whether a child can under a certain age and doubtful that a horse can at all. But a horse can be provided the ability to flee and escape, and I think that is important.
> 
> I'll admit to flooding Hondo early on when trying to work with his feet. Flooding in the form of tying hard and fast and letting him struggle to no avail. One time. And then I said, "This is not right". I do all of his trimming and shoeing without being tied or even wearing a halter most of the time. Same with Rimmey. I can work on either of them out in the middle of a 60 acre field. No ropes. No halters. I'm working on that with Dragon. It's taking some time but we'll get there.
> 
> Yes @loosie, the lady was exceptional at restraint. I'm afraid the school would have either allowed me to reach the pool or called the police to escort me out.


In defense of the lady that wrote that blog whose child was in the pool incident, if you read the comments following her post someone really railed into her for it so she further explained how it happened. It was in Switzerland and she described how the pool was built and where the parents were seated behind a window to watch. She also explained her and her husbands meeting with the school officials following. I had a little more respect for her after reading that.

I liked Smilie's description of just laying a whip down where they have to see it and perhaps step near it. I've done that. In fact for a long time every time I went out there I'd carry a long whip with me everywhere. And plastic bags tied to the fence and moving slowly closer to "their favorite spot" works also. 

I believe there are varying degrees of "flooding" and the _concept_ can be used humanely and to mutual benefit or as a short cut that could result in a horse that just shuts down. A horse that shuts down is no use to me out in the middle of the desert when somebody's mylar balloon blew away and got stuck in a mesquite tree.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Blue said:


> In defense of the lady that wrote that blog whose child was in the pool incident,


I failed to make my feelings clear. I respect and admire the lady for her restraint. She did the correct thing in my opinion.

But I'm doubting I would have measured up to that restraint which would undoubtedly have been less productive of a positive outcome.

The lady, IMO, needs no defense. And it was a wonderful write up that to me really brought home what we can so easily do to our horses without knowing it.

Yes, with the whip on the ground it would be a volunteering to approach it. I like that idea and will use it. Thanks @Smilie!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Hondo, if your friend is more apt to consider the advice of an old-time “cowboy”, you might take a look at what Bill Dorrance has to say in “True Horsemanship Through Feel”. Bill Dorrance is considered one of the precursors of the US “natural horsemanship” movement. Lelie Desmond sought to preserve his teachings “in his own words” by writing this book.

My own advice would be to consider the individual horse when choosing a training method. Different horses – like different people – react differently in stressful situations. Some can be quickly brought to overcome their anxieties, through methods like flooding. Others, might be traumatized by such an approach. 

I prefer a more cautious approach. I would introduce stress gradually while paying attention to the individual’s reaction. I would stop before the reaction became too great – maybe even back off a bit. I would go step by step, letting the individual become accustomed to one level of stress before asking that individual to endure a greater level.

Paying careful attention to the individual’s reactions can help prevent later problems. Horses sometimes learn to mask their fears while providing the reaction sought by the trainer. This does not, however, eliminate the fear. While the immediate result may appear successful, future exposure to a similar or slightly different situation may have drastically different results.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Hondo was given to me as a 14 YO ranch horse and had been on this ranch for 7 years.
> 
> I was told he was not safe to ride above a walk. He is the only horse on the ranch that unseated one veteran rider on the ranch and that was at a walk.
> 
> ...


Yes, I've followed some of your posts and @bsms. 

What do you think makes the difference between the good ones and the ones they get rid of? If there is a common thread.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Spooky ranch horses: If you ride a ranch gelding in a ranch environment, similar to the one it was trained in, they rarely will be spooky. Change the environment - ask an ex-ranch horse to stroll thru NYC, and it could get very ugly.

Trooper is our Steady Eddie ex-ranch horse. He got that name on a ranch because he's "just a trooper" - someone who takes orders and does them without fuss or bother. He was loaned from his parent ranch to one in Colorado while we got corrals and shelters built. He arrived back at his parent ranch looking like this:








​
Two months on the Colorado ranch turned him from Steady Eddie - "Just a little trooper!" - into a horse who busted through the side of the corral at the sight of....a cowboy hat. It took a pro almost 5 weeks to get him to stay calm at the sight of someone wearing a cowboy hat.

Flooding may work for some scenarios. Seems a part of it would depend on the goal - obedient servant, or thinking partner? And while an obedient servant can be turned into a thinking partner, it seems like flooding could easily result in a horse who thinks of humans as opponents rather than partners, or who will fight to get away from cowboy hats. :?



jgnmoose said:


> ...What do you think makes the difference between the good ones and the ones they get rid of? If there is a common thread.


I think genetics plays a role. The other day, while I was feeding the horses and cleaning the corral, Bandit left his food and went on full alert at the north side of the corral. For 30 minutes, he didn't move 12 inches. After 30 minutes, I went in the house, so he may have stayed on full alert - ignoring his food and letting others eat it. My farrier was raised around horses and ranches and is almost as old as me. He says if I wanted a "_Yes sir!_" horse, I bought the wrong one. He also says that if ridden right, Bandit will give me all he has.

The ranch Trooper came from has both cattle and sheep. They realized early on that Trooper hated working cattle, but loved working sheep. So they used him in the role that fit him. They loaned him to the ranch in Colorado with the agreement he would be used on sheep. Instead, the owner decided he would make Trooper cut cattle - or else. But they obviously did not succeed at making him... 

OTOH, Trooper's sire LOVED working very rough, wild cattle. My friend said the sire was dangerous to ride UNTIL he associated humans with working rough cattle. He eventually became my friend's favorite horse. He has a picture of him hanging on the wall, and tells folks he has already ridden the finest horse he'll ever meet. 40 years ago, when we were in school together, he told me a horse was just a tool. Somewhere along the way, he decided horses were individuals and you needed to work with them as such. And some horses love working rough cattle, and some will herd sheep all day forever without complaint. If the horse isn't suited for any of the roles you want, sell him.

That makes sense to me.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jgnmoose said:


> What do you think makes the difference between the good ones and the ones they get rid of? If there is a common thread.


In answer to that I'd refer to @TXhorseman's post.

Flooding may seem to work well on some horses depending on their temperament and may traumatize others. The ones that become traumatized by methods used are simply deemed bad horses and gotten rid of. Simple as that. The good ones either survive the flooding or as TX mentioned learn to suppress it. But in either case, IMO, the retained horses operate more under aversive responses rather than willing compliance.

But also the horses that do remain have a greater number of pasture mates than the average confined horse and a greater amount of room to move around in. I think that helps stabilize those that remain. And they are often ridden more than the average horse. I'm beginning to more and more believe there is no substitute for time spent with the horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think there are \ranch horses, and then there are RANCH horses, and not all are one and the same, trained by the same level of horsemen, any more then anywhere else
There are still people working on ranches, that are not 'horsemen, ', but ones that can get a horse to work, same as any other \tool', through whatever method
Then there are ranch horses, where those ranches are noted for turning out great using hroses, and where those geldings sell for $8,000, up to $40,000 , to people just looking for good solid horses.
Afterall, many of the revered ground breaking horsemen, had their horse education, begin on working ranches, including people like Dorrance.
Martin Black, part of the team of "evidence horsemanship, started hundreds of hroses each year, on a working ranch. Ranches like the Bar 6666, Douglas Lake Cattle company, are know for turning out great horses.
Sure, a ranch horse that has never been subjected to any amount of traffic, has to get used to it, but will, if he has the correct foundation, same as a well broke horse, ridden just in arenas, will also adapt to riding out
The ranch horse sales here, command good prices. Horses that have doctored cattle, been roped off, ridden grazing leases, here anyway, are broke, and it great demand, by entry level people, willing to pay a good price for a broke horse
So, I am not quite sure I would have any great respect for any of the cowboys on those ranches that produced either Hondo, or the horse BSMS had, like MIa
At those ranch horse sales, the buyer is allowed to try the horse, in a large arena, with all the activities such a venue has, and they do fine.
So, to me, a 'good ranch horse, started by a horseman, and not some horse mechanic, would never have resulted in a 'Hondo'
My husband, before we got married, ans who worked on a ranch during the summer, while going to University,used to borrow a ranch stud, and meet me, to go riding down the road. This stud, was ridden into Calgary , along with my hrose at the time, trough thick traffic, over the dam and causeway, kept in my future in laws back yard overnight, and then ridden in the Calgary Stampede Parade the next morning, and handled that traffic, and noise of such a major parade, just fine.
Thus, I don't have any respect for the training ranch programs that produced Hondo, and what what else has been written by human Hondo, concerning some other hroses from that ranch-sorry, I shudder to consider that ranch a good example of 'ranch horses'!
Like I said, there is a halfway point, and extremes, on either end, are not good.
If a horse does not accept different stimuli, sooner or later, it will come back to haunt you. I had a plastic bag, blow under Smilie, at one show, after just having gotten on her, at my trailer Could have been 'rodeo time" !
Far as trimming feet, without tying ahrose, it is no different then riding without a bridle, once that horse has an ingrained response, by first being trained correctly in that bridle
I often trim feet, take boots on and off, with Smilie or Charlie just loose. In fact, I only have to look at a foot, bend slightly, and Smilie will pick it up. To get ahorse to that point, does not mean that in the beginning you use good standard methods, to make that foot handling accepted and normal.
Sacking out , for me, is not flooding. When you first saddle a colt, you place that saddle pad all over him, taking it on and off, until he relaxes, realizes it won't hurt him.Repeat with the saddle. You can then ground tie a colt, and saddle him.
That to me is just correct sacking out, versus tip toeing around a colt, for ages,easing the saddle up there, afraid to let the stirrups drop, like on 'broke horse', for ever and a day!

Lastly, in response jgnmoose's one post Those who take part in colt starting challenges do amazing things, in a few days, but will be the first to admit, those demos are for entertainment, competition, and not the rate of speed in training, they use, regularly , starting colts at home, as no horse, and I don't care by who, is trained a couple
of days
Sure, you can watch someone like Steve Rother, or Doug Mills, work an unhandled horse in a roundpen for three days, then ride that horse in that large arena, all all gaits, cracking a whip off of the horse, even taking that halter they are riding with off, and lope around that arena, with that huge crowd cheering and yelling, then end by standing on the back of that horse, but that does not mean that the average Joe can get on that horse the next day and ride!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ranch horses that don't want to work cattle, have no 'cow' so something is wrong with the breeding program of that ranch!
The hroses that we have had, that were cowhorse bred, were very 'cowy', wanting to work cattle, and when no cattle around, would work whatever they could, including a coyote out in the pasture!
What is the breeding program on those Ranches, BSMS and Hondo?
Breaking out of a corral at the sight of a cowboy hat?? Kinda tells you the quality of 'training' at that rancH!!! Good ranch horses also don't find their way onto those cheap bargain horse sites, like Craiglist

This is just a sample, from a small Alberta town, of prices at a Ranch horse sale

http://www.ranchhorseroundup.com/


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Ranch horses that don't want to work cattle, have no 'cow' so something is wrong with the breeding program of that ranch!...Breaking out of a corral at the sight of a cowboy hat?? Kinda tells you the quality of 'training' at that rancH!!! Good ranch horses also don't find their way onto those cheap bargain horse sites, like Craiglist


My friend has around 3,000 sheep and 300 cattle. Sheep work takes priority over cattle, and no harm in that. Sheep work differently. You don't want a horse to jump in and "work" the sheep. Low key gets better results.

Their work also requires a lot of long miles. 40 or 50 miles days are not uncommon. Most of the horses there are at least 1/2 Arabian. Trooper's dam was a purebred Arabian, and he got his calmness from her. The sire was half-Arabian & half-Appy. Barely 14 hands, 800 lbs, and he'd carry a big guy in a roping saddle for as many miles as asked.

The ranch Trooper was loaned to in Colorado screwed him up. Spurred the tar out of him trying to force him to cut cattle...and some horses just don't take to forcing.

This was my daughter riding one of the sire's offspring last June:








​ 
Another one of Trooper's relations:








​ 
Not the standard stock QH. Trooper was sold to us as an excellent beginner's horse, which he was before being loaned out. And he was again, after getting over his fear of cowboy hats. He has gotten along well with my 5'2" daughter since she first got on him as a very green rider. You don't ride like this on a horse you cannot trust:








​ 
Nothing special about being a "ranch horse". Some ranch hands are great with horses. Many suck at anything other than staying on. I've met some darn mean ranch horses. There are plenty of sour ranch horses. And there are some amazing ones. 

"_Horses sometimes learn to mask their fears while providing the reaction sought by the trainer. This does not, however, eliminate the fear._"- @*TXhorseman* 

That describes Bandit to the T. He'd go until he couldn't go, and then explode. I don't like explosions, so I've taught him to talk to me. How? By being willing to listen. So he is now more likely to balk, but doesn't explode. He may startle but he doesn't go into bucking fits and he doesn't try to run away with me. But it will never be his nature to meekly go on by. I like a thinking, interactive horse and I've got one. A lot of folks wouldn't want him. But I think he's a fun ride and a pleasure to own. Horses for courses - and for owners, and for goals.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am not afan of Arabian crosses, although recognize that there are some great Arabians out there, including some that work cattle well> Shiela Veridan had promoted those
They also excel at endurance racing, but any going through sale rings here, don't fetch a good price, and they are nicked named 'Air Heads", by many
Yes, I know, that is just as bad as people thinking Appaloosas are all stubborn, but we all form opinions by the examples we encounter, or any breed, and the worst horse I ever rode, was that spoiled Anglo Arabian stallion
I have gone on trail rides with Arabians, and haev yet to see one that did not dance, prance and jig, although I am sure that they are out there!
They are just not valued as working ranch horses here, but of course, sheep here are herded by trained dogs., requiring only one rider, plus those dogs


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not everyone likes Arabians. I prefer them over most of the Quarter Horses I've met. Individual preference. They make good ranch horses if your ranch work involves many miles of desert riding. 

"_I have gone on trail rides with Arabians, and haev yet to see one that did not dance, prance and jig.._."

You make that sound like a bad thing. If my horse does that, I just tip my imaginary top hat to the imaginary crowd, and wonder if we will qualify for the Olympics in 2020...


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Someone here already said that horses are individuals. And I believe that with all my heart. People, dogs, horses, whatever. A heart, a mind, a soul. A personality, a character. Likes, dislikes. 

I've had a well bred ranch horse that would and could only do some things, but was a complete knot head with others. I had a rangy, gangly Bar-N horse that was hard to catch and would colic every February. But he could work a cow, ride through town, past a train through a junkyard and would herd a barking dog. No idea of breeding.

There's just no explaining why a family of highly intelligent surgeons can produce 3 kids of superior intelligence and drive and one that just wants to flip burgers. No explaining too why a ranch of exceptional reputation can produce exceptional horses with a few interspersed duds. It just happens.

I think that having too rigid of an opinion or expectations is a mistake.


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## workforit (Aug 25, 2016)

I am a Parelli student and I've never heard of flooding. Advance and retreat is what Parelli teaches.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I am not afan of Arabian crosses, although recognize that there are some great Arabians out there, including some that work cattle well> Shiela Veridan had promoted those
> They also excel at endurance racing, but any going through sale rings here, don't fetch a good price, and they are nicked named 'Air Heads", by many
> Yes, I know, that is just as bad as people thinking Appaloosas are all stubborn, but we all form opinions by the examples we encounter, or any breed, and the worst horse I ever rode, was that spoiled Anglo Arabian stallion
> I have gone on trail rides with Arabians, and haev yet to see one that did not dance, prance and jig, although I am sure that they are out there!
> They are just not valued as working ranch horses here, but of course, sheep here are herded by trained dogs., requiring only one rider, plus those dogs


That would be the famous Sheila Varian.
Something like Quarter Horses, there are certainly types within the breed. I ride with a little Polish Arab endurance type who is as steady as any horse on the trail. A real point-and-go horse. Not that you are wrong.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jgnmoose said:


> <snip>
> 
> In my home town there are some girls who like to ride their horses through a drive through. They ride all over, along the road. Stop and talk to their friends, and generally BS around on their horses. I can't begin to explain why those horses are more broke than the really sacked out to death horse, but they are. I think the girls don't think about how badly it could go wrong, so they end up giving their horses a lot of experience and confidence by accident. One take on it anyway.


Would that more horses had the opportunity to be ridden all over the neighborhood by reckless young girls. I used to be one of the those! On a summer day we'd tack up and ride over roads and fields and orchards to get to our friends' house, knock on the bedroom window (what, get off the horse? Never!) and get them up and get their horses saddled . . . I used to pick apricots bareback with the halter rope in one hand and a bucket in the other. I used to tie my horse to the gas meter at the 7-11 and go get a slurpee! Those horses were broke to death. We used to fuss with them all day long. 

My horse suffers from me being an old lady, that's for sure.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Blue said:


> In defense of the lady that wrote that blog whose child was in the pool incident, if you read the comments following her post someone really railed into her for it so she further explained how it happened. It was in Switzerland and she described how the pool was built and where the parents were seated behind a window to watch. She also explained her and her husbands meeting with the school officials following. I had a little more respect for her after reading that.


I didn't read the comments, and my knee jerk reaction was to judge 'how could you allow...', but I figured there was probably more to it... I actually imagined she must have been behind a window, for her not to have roared.... wouldn't have stopped me banging on that window for all I was worth...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

workforit said:


> I am a Parelli student and I've never heard of flooding. Advance and retreat is what Parelli teaches.


If you have a look at my early post in this thread, you will see that he DID teach flooding. Not that he would have called it that. It is a behavioural term, as is A&R, and they don't have to be exclusive.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Avna said:


> Would that more horses had the opportunity to be ridden all over the neighborhood by reckless young girls. ...
> My horse suffers from me being an old lady, that's for sure.


Those were the days, my friend... 

I often drive the areas I used to ride & marvel at just how many kms I used to do... & at speed usually! A year ago a friend & I rode between suburbs where we used to ride(used to be towns w country between) - thought we'd do the easy ride, hour or so each way, cafe either end... It took us the whole day & we had to rush lunch & miss out on the cafe at the end!

...& while I pride myself on my horse's training & unflappable characters... I sometimes wonder how they'd cope, compared to the old days, when we'd do things like lead them over narrow swing bridges, gallop alongside speeding trains, etc, etc, without even thinking twice! Often, if on smooth trails, a non riding friend would also be 'tagging along' literally... wearing roller skates & hanging onto my horse's tail!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that horses are individuals, but having bred many horses over the years, inheritance of mind,,willingness, ect is passes on pretty consistently, and professional trainers, know which line of horses are most likely to be good minded, with heart, and which horses can be hard to ride, although some of those have exceptional talent, and will do very well with a pro, but will never be a horse suitable for the average non pro or youth
When you get a horse with both the ability and the mind, you have hit the \jack pot' I feel very lucky to have known/ridden, owned and raised some of those.
During that learning curve, I also raised some horses that never would be reliable, good minded, and that could be great one day, but were hroses you never could trust completely, and these were horses that received the same nurture , training, handling, as those great minded horses, so it did boil down to genetics.
I learned to avoid halter blood, esp that halter blood, where any proven performance, was left generations behind.
Some race blood worked way better then halter blood, but not all. I found the GO Man Go horses to be 'hot', yet one of my best young stallions, that I sold, after starting him, was strongly race bred. He was out of my running App mare, who I bought off the track, and who was half TB, and by an AQHA champion running horse
One of the worst minded horses I had, was an App stud that was a son of the AQHA world champion halter horse< crimson War. Perhaps, because his dam was Go Man Go bred, didn't help
Yes, he had a lot of athletic ability, and looked nothing like a halter horse, except that he was 'pretty', but he was an unpredictable horse to ride, and produced foals that were the same. Can you say, 'no brains home!"
Even though that stud won major championships, Ridden by a professional, while I was pregnant, I gelded him, as his foals proved to have the same lack of mind
On the other hand, the cross that produced my Einstein, and a host of full siblings, were all great minded horses, that were very willing, easy to train, excelled in many disciples, became 'family' to the homes they sold to
While handling, earning a horse;s trust, plays ahuge role in developing a great equine partner, one cannot simply dismiss that there are born some bad minded horses, that are that way, not through any mis handling, trauma , abuse, anymore then people like Ted Bundy, or Barnardo, who never had childhood abuse, yet were born with minds that made them into physcopaths
With so many good minded horses, going to slaughter, unwanted, simply because of circumstances, I do believe there are some horses that truly belong in a dogfood can, looking out, and that are not created by 'flooding', but simply are born that way


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Actually @Smilie, all of the horses that were born, raised, and trained on the ranch are very good horses. Hondo came with problems as did Rimmey. Both were improved but then set aside for another horse.

But they do use flooding in a way that I think prevents them from being a better horse. With me coming to the ranch with nearly zero saddle horse experience, there is no way I can make suggestions. As in, "What do I know?".

Frustrated at the flooding of little Sage Heart, I started this thread. They do many things that I believe to be correct in training. The round pen often looks like a trash dump from all the things the horses travel around and over.

Sage Heart walks through sets of tires like a pro. One day a person feeding the horses accidentally stepped into one of those funnel shaped dog collar thingies and it scared one colt to death with it on the persons foot. So yes, that person wore it at feeding time for a week or more ignoring the colt which was not restrained.

So don't jump on the ranch too hard. Not many around here have gone to Pat P., Dennis Ries, and Monty's clinics. They have. That says a lot on a 100+ year old ranch that began with the methods from the days of old. Old ingrained ways sometimes have to die a very slow death.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've had a couple of purebred Arabians and a lot of part breds - mostly because a lot of the top UK ponies are Arabian crosses.
They aren't bred to be a child's first pony so I do expect them to be more on the hot/high energy side but really I never found them to be spooky in the real fearful of everything sense but more inclined to be 'creative' if they get bored. I would say they're probably the most trainable horses that I've ever had but if they don't want to do something you might as well not waste your time trying to force them into it.


Re. the flooding - I don't think it works on many horses, they just get overwhelmed and confused so lose confidence in themselves and the trainer. You teach young children in small 'bite sized pieces' because it gives them time to think and absorb whatever it is before moving on to the next stage


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Smilie , I don't believe anybody has suggested flooding produces sociopathic horses. Not me nor any of the posted articles.

It has been suggested however that flooding often breaks down trust and often causes the horse to appear not to be afraid when they really are.

I think you even confirmed that you do not use flooding for those same reasons.

I see no reason to think that horses are not born with the same brain defects as humans at around the same frequency, but that says nothing about the pros or cons of flooding.

And because a horse or human may have experienced the misfortune of being born with a brain defect, I do not believe it is just to offhand either to a can of Alpo for just that reason.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think flooding, can mean different things to different people, far as degree, same as R- I have not watched to see whether P.P uses what I would consider flooding, or not
Correctly done, sacking out is not flooding Imprinting is not handling a foal at an early age, as often came up on the topic of Imprinting.
Thus, unless you define exactly what you consider flooding, we really don't know what we are discussing
If you believe a horse always must have the option of flight, when exposed to something he is scared of, I don't agree, as 'it depends' comes into that equation-you just try not to push the horse into a reactive, non thinking mode
For instance, when I clip a horse for the fist time, I am not going to just leave him loose, but will use the approach and retreat method, ditto first time I bath him, or apply fly spray, ect
Hopefully, I have also earned enough trust, so the horse knows I won't hurt him
I don't know, do you call spraying a horse with a hose, starting at the feet, backing off of the neck, ect, when he appears very apprehensive, but eventually having him stand there, realizing both that dancing around is futile, nor does that water spray hurt him, flooding?
Do you suggest, getting an endless length of hose, having the horse loose in a pasture, for that first bath, thus never taking the option of flight, away?
As James Bond said, Never say never!


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

You also have to take into account that hands on a working Ranch have a job to do, and a limited time to accomplish it. So techniques they use may not be the best way to do something but rather the fastest. 
I've had several old school Cowboys tell me they wouldn't bother with this or that horse because they aren't worth their time.
I do believe that nothing really replaces time spent with your horse, and just riding.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Can you post a link, Hondo, to a video , which you feel shows 'flooding', so that
we all have a base to start from, far as this subject?
I certainly do not agree with true flooding, but not knowing what video you are referring to, with those two trainers, can't judge if flooding is what is being applied


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Avna said:


> Would that more horses had the opportunity to be ridden all over the neighborhood by reckless young girls. I used to be one of the those! On a summer day we'd tack up and ride over roads and fields and orchards to get to our friends' house, knock on the bedroom window (what, get off the horse? Never!) and get them up and get their horses saddled . . . I used to pick apricots bareback with the halter rope in one hand and a bucket in the other. I used to tie my horse to the gas meter at the 7-11 and go get a slurpee! Those horses were broke to death. We used to fuss with them all day long.
> 
> My horse suffers from me being an old lady, that's for sure.


Exactly.

The common thread seems to be that they are decent horses to begin with, are loved and treated well and get a lot of miles and experience. 

Kind of wonder if that same level of broke and confidence for the horse is even possible messing with them a few days a week then turning them out or back to the stall. I'd love to have the time to spend several hours a day every day with mine, we'd both be better off for it.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Smilie flooding in behavior modification is very well defined and has been for a long time. Just type "flooding in behavior modification" into a search window and you will see lots of definitions. @Blue posted a link with a very good definition and discussion at the outset of this thread.

Flooding is all about the inability to escape the feared object. 

@flytobecat I agree with everything you posted 100%. In the early days of hardscrabble ranching before sweep pens and squeeze chutes the cattle had to be roped, snubbed, roped again on the hinds and stretched on the ground for doctoring and branding. It was hard dangerous work. And the horses needed to do the heaviest lifting. And there was just so many hours in a day to get stuff done. Still that way sometimes. So sometimes shortcuts are taken, both for people and horses.

And yeah, they look at a horse that is a little too hyper and a little too high fear and they say, naw, ain't got time for trying to train that. They got too much other work to do.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jgnmoose said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The common thread seems to be that they are decent horses to begin with, are loved and treated well and get a lot of miles and experience.
> 
> Kind of wonder if that same level of broke and confidence for the horse is even possible messing with them a few days a week then turning them out or back to the stall. I'd love to have the time to spend several hours a day every day with mine, we'd both be better off for it.


Loved that post by @Avna also. And agree with your comments and sentiments.

I am enjoying my retirement so much as it does allow me to interact with the horses several times every day. I think that may have more to do with my limited success than anything I know or do. Just time with the horse. I even adjust my breakfast and supper time to theirs and usually sit in a chair with them while they and I eat together.

And I often just walk out into the field to have conversations with them. (they are very good listeners


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Correctly done, sacking out is not flooding...
> If you believe a horse always must have the option of flight, when exposed to something he is scared of, I don't agree, as 'it depends' comes into that equation-you just try not to push the horse into a reactive, non thinking mode...
> Hopefully, I have also earned enough trust, so the horse knows I won't hurt him.


I think in order to avoid truly flooding a horse, the horse needs to _think _he has the ability to escape and also the stimulus can't be beyond what he can handle. That doesn't mean the horse is loose and can actually run away, but the horse has some room to move, to escape mentally before becoming panicked to the point of "fight or flight." This is first for the horse's sake, but also because a truly terrified horse is very dangerous and can hurt people badly as well as damage property. 

I do see people who are only used to horses with certain levels of high tolerance to pressure and they can easily push a more reactive horse to the point of terror more quickly and easily than they realize, creating a bad situation. So what might be seen as merely introducing a new object to one horse might be seen as flooding by another.

Like Hondo, I don't think a horse needs to be thrown away because of what might be seen by some as serious errors in personality. 
It is all a matter of perspective. There are those who value a horse most that is unflappable, does not panic or spook often. But seen from another perspective, sometimes these unflappable and stable temperaments are not the best for certain things. For instance, if I had to choose a horse that never spooks but also has a slogging pace and requires some incentive to keep cantering after we hit the mile mark, versus a horse that spooks every ride but I can hop on and the horse will gladly trot and canter for ten miles, speeding up each time I shift my weight forward to cue, I would choose the spooky ******. The prancy Arab that has energy coming out her ears will also be moving at a fast pace sixteen miles later, and the calm Paint is now discouraged, mentally tired and thinks walking might be better than trotting so fast. 

I think horses only disappoint when we try to shove them into boxes they were not designed to fit into. The wonderful ranch horses might have been bred for generations to do that work, but that won't make them so great if we try grand prix jumping. It's not just "training," it's taking a horse that was bred to do a certain thing, and then training them within the parameters of their physical and mental aptitude. We can't just train a horse to do anything or accept anything. It's not just having a good foundation on the horse, it's knowing what this horse will excel at and won't. You're never going to take one of the super hot, reactive types and turn them into a bomb proof mount, and flooding will tend to make these horses end up farther away from bomb proof than closer to it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

There is a difference between Flooding and Desensitization in psychology; thus the use of two different terms. They are not the same thing by any means. There are very different cognitive processes involved, which I won't bore you with.

In Desensitization the exposure to an anxiety causing stimuli is gradual beginning at the lowest point of anxiety;










I have a horse who had one of the worst bag phobias. His response was not just one of fear but a neurotic response. Plastic bags, paper bags, feed bags, treat bags……didn’t matter. They all ended up with a sweaty horse shaking in the corner or at the furthest reaches of the pasture. 

To his credit though, when he encountered a bag on the trail he would simply freeze and refuse to go forward no matter what you did to him. At least he didn't buck or bolt. 

My trainer tried “desensitizing” him using a traditional roundpen method and after several attempts gave up. I then sent him to a big-name trainer here in Texas who quickly sent him back saying he was afraid the horse was going to kill himself with anxiety (he was in his late teens) during the process. 
I brought him home. Assuming that a "professional" horse trainer could handle better the problem, was my mistake and a lack of thought on my part. It is why I no longer advocate "sending" a horse to a trainer and instead being as involved in the process as you can be. 

After discussing how they were approaching it, I figured out the problem was they were not desensitizing him but inadvertently flooding him.

Rather than starting out with the lowest level of stimuli that garnered a negative reaction and beginning there, they started where they traditionally would, which was at the upper end of this particular horse’s fear scale.

This is a horse that at liberty would not come anywhere near you if he thought you might have had a bag hiding in your back pocket! (he could hear it crinkle when you walked)

The difference between “Flooding” and “Desensitization” is where on the scale of anxiety you start for that particular individual. Therefore, what might have been an acceptable level to begin with one horse can be considered flooding to another. 

The biggest observational differentiation between the two terms is where you are starting on the INDIVIDUAL’s fear scale. With horses, we tend to just do without any consideration of how to tailor it to a specific animal. 

Hondo, what I would tell your friend that might make him more open to changing his approach is not to ditch what he is doing, but to simply start it on a different point on the individual horse’s scale of fear. Find the lowest level of stimulus to which the horse responds aversively and begin there.

There are several problems with flooding: It is less effective and more emotionally traumatic for the individual (in some cases it can lead to ancillary fear responses or even a catatonic state). The pro is that it is faster (which is why trainers, where time is money like it) but the increased risk that the fear may randomly pop back up at some time in the future (due to the specific cognitive processes involved) makes it a risky Band-Aid fix usually reserved for extreme cases where a phobia has really begun to disrupt an individual's ability to live their lives; immediate remedy is more important than long term results. 

Where there is an irrational fear but, it is not disruptive to the act of everyday living, desensitization is a better more effective long-term choice.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I have worked with a high-anxiety dog extensively (mainly because when he was anxious he'd bite), and by far the most important thing with the process of desensitization is to READ THE ANIMAL. Same with flooding, I am sure. The point is to find the threshold of fear, and work below or right at that threshold, which is going to be different

for every horse
for every exposure situation
every single different day, in fact every single minute

It is the responsibility of the trainer to read that horse every minute and set him up for success. Success being calmness. Not immobility.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not a sheep herder, but here is what I observed watching, what I was told, and it explains why Trooper walks very slow but trots and canters fast:

When moving along with the sheep, you walk SLOOOWWWW. The sheep are grazing. You do NOT want to disturb them. Let them eat.

If some sheep start to break away, or if they are about to flow into the wrong area, you do not move thru them. That would startle and break up the herd. Instead, you go out and AROUND, and you go fast. You also don't want to be chasing sheep, so you swing out wide past them and then come at them from the far side. So when you do that, you go as fast as the terrain allows.

Horses don't work sheep. When I was riding, I got off after a couple hours because I could do more on foot than on horseback. The dogs work the sheep. The horse allows the herder to keep up with the dog and to take the dog quickly to where the dog will work. Once man, horse and dog are in position, the dog works.

And Trooper was great at this sort of work. Also, the herders hired sometimes have never been on a horse before, so you need a care-taker type of horse. The new herder may get 10 minutes of instruction in a language he barely understands before going out to ride a horse all over rough country. You need a horse who isn't fussy, won't get upset if someone is unbalanced, who responds to very simple cues, but who can then get the job done. Although Trooper is 3/4 Arabian, he did that very well. And a horse like that is also great for a young girl to learn to ride.

But Trooper's sire like working the roughest cattle. He could be controlled when working normal cattle, but what he loved was when they'd find some cattle who had been missed before and spent a few years wild. He would then "work" them, using teeth and both hind feet if needed. Because cattle take more skill, and because they have fewer of them, the cattle are worked by the family - who all grew up riding.

*In terms of management, the ranch could then plug a given horse into a job that suited him*. They need calm, quiet horses and they need horses with cow sense. All of their horses need to cover a lot of miles, day after day. If they had too many of one type, they sell the excess. *It isn't worth their time to try to train a horse to do something it wasn't meant to do.*

I made a lot of mistakes with Mia - a purebred Arabian mare bred by people who had bred national champions, from a national champion mixed with Russian racing lines. Perhaps the biggest mistake, looking back, was spending 7 years trying to pound a round peg into a square hole. She was bred to cover a lot of miles quickly, and needed to do so regularly - and I couldn't offer her that. I miss her, but I suspect the best thing I did for her was send her to a place where she could be bred, and could be ridden many miles fast when her condition allowed.

Bandit was being used for relay racing. I'm told he was quite fast. But I don't think he enjoyed it. I'm sure he likes going fast, but he was very tense - physically and emotionally - when he arrived. After 18 months, he is much more relaxed. I think he has also come to enjoy being 'consulted' about where we are going and how we are going to get there. He stays alert and watchful - just like he does in the corral. I enjoy that. Many, many riders would not - and that is OK. I've got a number of books that include techniques to make Bandit ride like Trooper. I like him as he is, even if he is a PITA at times.

Flooding strikes me as taking a round peg and then taking an axe and lopping parts off to create a square peg. It is a way of breaking down a horse's resistance - which assumes a horse is a bunch of clay, and we get to shape him to match our will. And maybe it is successful with some horses, or when done by some horsemen. I'm inclined to think that if the horse needs that much reshaping, then the best bet for horse and rider is to sell him to someone who likes a horse of a different shape...

I really like some of what Etienne Beudant wrote, but have no idea how to reconcile it with his approval of "effet d'ensemble". As described in General Albert Decarpentry, Baucher et son ecole, Paris 1948, pp. 49-54:
."It consists of the simultaneous application of the driving and restraining aids, in such a way that the opposition of forces makes the latter annul the effects of the former completely.

"*Thus, driven forward by the legs, while being pulled back by the hand, the horse must remain completely immobilized by the effet d'ensemble*...

...By bringing the horse's forces into play, demanding them up to their limit and containing them, *he lets him experience the futility of any efforts to escape the constraints of the aids. The absolute domination over his instinctive forces, and, consequently, over his morale, is thus realized*. The horse has "all four legs tied", as Baucher put it. Convinced of his helplessness, he is "tamed"..."

Quotes of Fran?ois Baucher - ArtisticDressage.com​.
There is a description at The Effet d?Ensemble ? harmony+cross . Or as Etienne Beudant described:
."The effet d'ensemble produces results and is of universal application, regardless of the horse's temperament or disposition, which of course varies by the individual. *"However vicious he may be, the animal quickly learns that resistance is in vain. This feeling of helplessness causes him to abandon the struggle; his spirit is subdued; he is resigned to obedience" - General Faverot de Kerbrech*

The horse that is habituated to the effet d'ensemble never dreams of disobeying a rider who can employ it; its utility in ordinary equitation is indisputable; it is exactly what is needed..." - Etienne Beudant, Horse Training Outdoors and High School​.
That sounds like flooding to me. If the goal is a horse who "_is resigned to obedience_", then maybe flooding works. But I'd rather find a horse who wants to be ridden the way I like to ride, and for the purposes that I want to use him in. I want my peg to fit the hole I want to place it in!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Gottotrot made a very good point when she mentioned that a very experienced and confident rider/handler can push a horse harder than one who isn't because they have a much higher chance of dealing with a meltdown situation successfully and without getting hurt
We were at a dressage clinic recently where two horses were both doing things that were preventing them from progressing and needed a little push to get them through it but as soon as the horses started to show a resistance to any pressure to get them on the right course the riders (who weren't beginners by any means) backed down. 
The trainer then asked if he could ride them and the difference in both horses was a real eye opener. The horse that looked as if it was the most volatile of the two actually put up no fight at all and was instantly compliant - as if he sensed he had a rider that wasn't going to stand for any nonsense. The other horse did put up a bit of a fight but nothing dangerous to scare a good confident rider then he also decided to do what was asked of him
There was no flooding involved but the principle of how hard you can push a horse in a situation and deal with it still applies


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm beginning to be very very glad I posted this thread. And a very special "like and thanks" to @gottatrot and @Reiningcatsanddogs
for their typically clear and instructive inputs.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

_Flooding strikes me as taking a round peg and then taking an axe and lopping parts off to create a square peg. It is a way of breaking down a horse's resistance - which assumes a horse is a bunch of clay, and we get to shape him to match our will. And maybe it is successful with some horses, or when done by some horsemen. I'm inclined to think that if the horse needs that much reshaping, then the best bet for horse and rider is to sell him to someone who likes a horse of a different shape...

_Very well said. I really like this analogy.


_We were at a dressage clinic recently where two horses were both doing things that were preventing them from progressing and needed a little push to get them through it but as soon as the horses started to show a resistance to any pressure to get them on the right course the riders (who weren't beginners by any means) backed down. 
The trainer then asked if he could ride them and the difference in both horses was a real eye opener. The horse that looked as if it was the most volatile of the two actually put up no fight at all and was instantly compliant - as if he sensed he had a rider that wasn't going to stand for any nonsense. The other horse did put up a bit of a fight but nothing dangerous to scare a good confident rider then he also decided to do what was asked of him
There was no flooding involved but the principle of how hard you can push a horse in a situation and deal with it still applies
_
This actually brings to mind one of the horses that we have although an entirely different reason. I rode a qtr/morgan gelding for a little over 20 years. He's older now and I ride a 15.2hh percheron/qtr mare. She can be a b**** but I love her and our relationship is top notch. I trust her because she trusts me. She understands that I'd never ask her to do something she can't do. 

We also have a 17.2hh paint gelding. I ride him occasionally and do "ok" with him. However, his relationship and bond is with my son. When I ride this gelding and ask him to do something he either doesn't want to do or is anxious about he fusses and then I get nervous. Whether it's his size or whatever, I get nervous and he feels that and gets more fussy. You know how THAT escalates. However, my son with less than 1/3 the experience I have (not necessarily knowledge) can get him to do sooooo much more than I can. I'm not sure that in this case it has any thing to do with training, or confidence, or knowledge, as my son rides him maybe once a month. This big paint TRUSTS my son. They have a relationship ..... a bond, that I don't have with him.

Can't help but wonder how much that plays into the various scenarios.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure there are lots of things that factor in to how well a horse will go for another rider - sometimes its just about trust. We had lots of ponies around when I was growing up and a lot of them were probably very poorly trained, some were quite young and yet we would head off all over the place on our own and nothing really awful ever happened.
With some horses I think its just how they are. I always worm Lou and she's as easy as it gets so I was really shocked when DH decided to do her one morning and when he said 'I'm going to worm your now' she replied 'Oh no you're not' He ended up with a dislocated and broken finger.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am getting confused, far as this topic, as in is getting tentacles, far removed, JMO, from the original topic
Of course, a confident rider, can get a horse through stuff, , where a less confident rider, backs down, which in turn, teaches such a horse to try his riders
Of course, some horses work better for as a less experienced child, then from a more advanced rider at times, for several reasons.
At that age, you have little fear, and will ride about anything, and the horse feels both this confidence and relaxed attitude.
Second, the horse knows that youth is going to ask less of him

One of my first studs was that way. Since i rode him in reining, western riding, ect, he knew he was expected to perform, when I got on. At one show, I had a trail class to ride after lunch, and I could not get Classic calmed down, to the level you need, for a great trail class , where a horse is not trying to antispates, but waits on you for every move
In frustration, I put my then 14 year old son on him.and he calmed right down, and did a great trail class (yes, youth can show stallions in open classes, ApHC, but not in youth classes)

All this has nothing to do with true flooding, where I consider, two pure examples being, Dr Robert Miller;s foal imprinting, and old cowboy colt starting, where a un handled horse had a scotch hobble applied(front legs and one hind ) and then was sacked out


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> I think in order to avoid truly flooding a horse, the horse needs to _think _he has the ability to escape and also the stimulus can't be beyond what he can handle. That doesn't mean the horse is loose and can actually run away, but the horse has some room to move, to escape mentally before becoming panicked to the point of "fight or flight." This is first for the horse's sake, but also because a truly terrified horse is very dangerous and can hurt people badly as well as damage property.
> 
> I do see people who are only used to horses with certain levels of high tolerance to pressure and they can easily push a more reactive horse to the point of terror more quickly and easily than they realize, creating a bad situation. So what might be seen as merely introducing a new object to one horse might be seen as flooding by another.
> 
> ...


Agree that a horse is given some room to move, from that fearful object, and why I hold a horse on along lead shank or even a lunge line, for that first bath, versus tying him
I am also not saying all problem horses need to be discarded, as some can be fixed, have turned out the way they are, because of human error, JUST, that there truly are some horses just born with a bad mind, and with so many good horses winding up unwanted, horses that can be re rehabilitated, that true bad minded horse can indeed be eliminated
We are breeding better minded horses then in the past, and not every horse has to be made 'useful, as in the past, when we depended on horse power, thus, not every horse has to be 'saved'
If you don't believe true bad minded horses aren't born every once in awhile, you are not being realistic, nor talked to enough life time horsemen
You are preaching to the choir, far as taking into account, aptitude of individual horses, in training approach and suitable job
All these points I am not arguing.
I just want to see a video, with either of those trainers, and then discussing as whether they are using flooding,, explaining our views, and not dissect some dictionary term, but interpretation of what is being seen, in a training technique.
Without seeing what these trainers are doing, kinda hard to give a personnal judgement and label!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If "_The difference between “Flooding” and “Desensitization” is where on the scale of anxiety you start for that particular individual. Therefore, what might have been an acceptable level to begin with one horse can be considered flooding to another._"( @*Reiningcatsanddogs* ),

Then the horse's trust in the person will also affect at what point a horse is being overwhelmed.

It also affects the validity of the training. From the viewpoint of cavalry, where anyone might need to grab horse X and ride it into a fight, horses and riders MUST be interchangeable. An "effet d'ensemble" resulting in unquestioning obedience might be a reasonable tactic for training a cavalry horse. A horse who has been taught "_Resistance is futil_e" might work for a lot of ranch work, too. Trust and confidence in humans might be a better approach for those of us who ride our own horses for years.

"_Second, the horse knows that youth is going to ask less of him_" - @*Smilie* 

Might the difference be due, not to asking less, but asking? "_Hey, amigo, can you do X for me?_" gets me acting a whole lot more cooperative than _"Hey, butthead, give me X or else!_" Little Cowboy works his butt off for my wife - when she asks. He was a pretty sour lesson horse, though, back when no one asked him anything. Perhaps the genius of the child is in having fun with a friend...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, far as asking less, but asking.
If you have never ridden a performance horse, this might be less clear to you
if you have never ridden classes from reining to trail,on the same horse, again, you have not experienced this
It is also why you don't have a world champion in reining and also in trail 
Horses do expect to do 'jobs', they are use of doing. My son never rode this horse in either reining or western riding.
I also used to game this horse, thus did pole bending, as well as western riding
Plylons are used, for western riding classes, where a hrose does those collected lead changes, at exactly half way between them, while, poles are used for pole bending
Once, at an open show, I took him to where they offered western riding. You are lucky at those shows, if horses there can do simple changes between the pylons, so it was no big deal, having no pylons for them to set out poles for the western riding
We were half way up the long side, changing leads, between those poles, before my horse realized were were not pole bending, going for speed, but doing a western riding pattern, with slow, correct cadenced and exact lead changes
Far as one horse blowing before another, being sacked out, due to comfort level- also a no brainer, and why you read the horse, and use approach and retreat,a accordingly, and why I said you never push a horse into that fear, no thinking reactive stage
It is hard to write things down,explaining as to what I do, when a lot is taken for granted, as common good horse sense
I have long ago, learned not to try and make pleasure hroses out of reining bred horses, although I could have them win at open shows, just because they were 'broke' Thus the idea that ahrose can't be forced into a job role he does not fit or enjoy,to me is also just common good horse sense, and nothing to do with flooding
I don't flood horses, but if they are concerned about plastic wrap, better believe I sack them out first, before trying to extract a plastic wrapped sandwich out of my saddle bag! That is just common sense, and safety, JMO
I know people, that won't ride with saddle bags, esp if they have something noisy in them, won't put on slickers in pouring rain, because they are afraid of the hrose;s reaction- and I get a horse past that. I don't need a label, just common good hrose sense
I know people that have to wipe on fly spray, as they never got their horse past the point where they panic, when that fly spray is applied
Ever try packing a hrose, terrified of a tarp ?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmmm, I thought my self desensitisation of spiders was going well until I read your attached little list Reining... I've got as far as 4th on the list, doing well, but no. 5 & above made me seriously shudder. Still, there was a time when I couldn't even touch the page of a book if there was a spider photo on it...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> Flooding strikes me as taking a round peg and then taking an axe and lopping parts off to create a square peg. It is a way of breaking down a horse's resistance - which assumes a horse is a bunch of clay, and we get to shape him to match our will. And maybe it is successful with some horses, or when done by some horsemen. I'm inclined to think that if the horse needs that much reshaping, then the best bet for horse and rider is to sell him to someone who likes a horse of a different shape...


Really great explanation from Reining about desensitizing versus flooding, thank you for that. Such good points about how the individual horse and their perception is the most important thing.

I also love this about making a round peg square. What I've learned on the subject of flooding was taught to me by my little mare, Amore. I wrote a book describing our experiences for myself and friends to read, and titled it "Round pen, square horse." That's what I learned from her, that I couldn't take standard issue advice and systematically apply it to my horse and turn out a well trained product. 

As Reining points out, the individual tolerance varies so much. When I wanted to desensitize Amore to a blanket, I folded it up small and stepped into her stall with it, and she ran around me in circles for minutes, terrified at just the sight of it. 

I'm sure there are horses with such brain abnormalities there is nothing a person can do to work with them. I can agree on principle that there are so many wonderful horses out there, it doesn't make sense to waste time on the truly difficult ones. Yet some of the most influential horses in my life have been ones that would have been discarded or put down based on this principle. I've been advised by some in the past that either of my horses in their mind would fit into the "discard" category. 

When I tell some that one of my very best friends adopted a horse at 20 that reared straight up multiple times on every ride, for many, many rides, they tell me that horse was one that would not be worth the trouble. 
More than ten years later, after that mare was put down from old age, my friend will tell you that horse was her "once in a lifetime" horse, the most special horse friend she has had in her 50 some years with horses. 

That poor horse had been terrified of life for 20 years, and no one tried to understand. When my friend listened, this horse opened up and gave her all. She became so attuned to the rider she could be ridden almost on thoughts alone. I had the pleasure of riding that horse, and her grace and athleticism were something I have not yet felt on another horse. 

Another problem I've seen with discarding horses too quickly is that many horses seen as mentally unstable actually have a physical problem. Someone I know ended up with a beautiful, well bred horse that was discarded due to bolting randomly and unsafely. It was finally discovered that the horse had a nerve root exposed in his mouth, and certain actions by a rider would set off severe pain. After the tooth was removed, the horse stopped bolting.

Pain responses cannot be overcome by desensitizing or flooding. Yet people often try to train horses out of behaviors that are expressions of pain.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> "Round pen, square horse."


This gave me a big enough smile to make my eyes water. And my head wag from side to side. That is sooo good!

But now, is the book available? I think I'd like to read it!

If Temple Grandin had been a horse she would quite possibly have wound up in an Alpo can.

As it was she almost ended up being discarded into an institution from which she would never have emerged. But her mother saw something no one else saw.

Today Temple Grandin sports a PHD in animal science from the University of Arizona and is world famous for her work with cattle, autism, and of course her hug machine. I read only recently that a backpack model of the hug machine had been produced by others.

What a pity and what a loss to humanity it would have been without what she has given to humanity and many animals.

Wonderful story about the rearing horse. And the tooth. Both important stories. Very important.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

NOpe, not Temple Grandin, in that can, but people like Ted Bundy and Barnardo


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> If "_The difference between “Flooding” and “Desensitization” is where on the scale of anxiety you start for that particular individual. Therefore, what might have been an acceptable level to begin with one horse can be considered flooding to another._"( @*Reiningcatsanddogs* ),
> 
> Then the horse's trust in the person will also affect at what point a horse is being overwhelmed.
> 
> ...


 I am talking of a horse that anticipates, versus one that is not responsive
A horse can learn to associate certain tack and even a rider, with expectations
How well do you think, that show jumper, getting set to jump a course, is going to ride a calm trail pattern? After the horse has jumped that course, run a reining pattern, you will often see the rider put one of his kids up on the hrose, who knows his job is done, thus the relaxation Different horse coming in the in gate, in those events, and the horse leaving that ring

It has nothing to do with forcing a horse,, the horse not enjoying his job-Heck, I get tense in the hitching ring, as do many riders, before going through that in gate, and is part of competition, .
Still waiting for that video of flooding, after all, if those trainers are said to use flooding, then lets be able to judge, by actually seeing them in action, committing ;flooding'
Maybe they do, but I like to reserve opinion by observation, not just by accusation
Where is all the square peg and round hole coming from? I have yet to read where anyone suggested using a paint by number approach, to try and make a horse ill suited, not liking a particular job , do that job, because you are first of all working against yourself, trying to make a 'silk purse out of a pigs ear'
Never said to throw trust out the window either, nor to push a horse into fight/fight mode. The horse should be calmer after a lesson, then before it started. If he is scared of a a plastic bag, you don't try to avoid all plastic bags in the future, but have the horse trust you, accept having that plastic bag on him, by using approach and retreat, and the horse realizing that object is really no big deal
That does not mean you snub that horse up, hobble him, and then just subject him to all kinds of stuff, until he just tunes out, becomes that deer in the head lights
Yup, I do some sacking out. Before I put pop cans and other stuff, in my saddle bags on a colt, and trot off down the trail, I might lunge him at home first, with loaded saddle bags. Certainly, I have ridden many colts out, without doing this homework first, but I also saw a guy bucked off hard, who came with us on a trail ride, and we left the trailer at a trot. He never had saddle bags on that horse before.
I learned to have a horse I'm going to lead a pack horse off of, get used to the feel of a rope, under his trail-just in case. This is just common de sensitizing, and if you want to call it flooding, be my guest!
Never much agreed with throwing a hrose into a chicken coop either, -now that would be flooding!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> This gave me a big enough smile to make my eyes water. And my head wag from side to side. That is sooo good!
> 
> But now, is the book available? I think I'd like to read it!
> 
> ...


I have listened to temple Grandin, and yes, she has done great work for livestock handling, but her horse knowledge is lacking, JMO, reading her book
How in the heck did we even get on her as a subject? That rare truly dangerous horse I mentioned, born that way, not because he was abused, or has some un diagnosed pain issue , BUT A HORSE that is truly bad minded. Rare, yes, but not a mythical creature either, and not with a complex human brain, like Grandin, that functions a bit different, and a source of other gifts to both humanity and animals That comparison is completely off the wall!

I think you should read the book, EVIDENCE BASED HORSEMANSHIP, which is based on the partnership of a neuropsychologist and a person who started hundreds of colts, that links hands on horse experience with actual dissection of brains from both species, that relate directly to their thought process abilities


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

How about starting here, so we know what we are talking about:

During flooding, the horse is completely and utterly exposed to a thing or a situation that causes him fear. The horse is prevented from escaping the situation or object, by either direct physical restraint or confinement – haltered and held, tied, contained in a space he is unable to escape from etc. The horse is kept with the source of fear, until he stops responding to it.

During systematic desensitization, the horse is gradually exposed to a thing or situation that causes him fear. The exposure happens in such a way that the the horse is slowly exposed to the thing that scares him, in progressive increments, keeping him below a threshold where fear and panic would start

- See more at: Flooding and Systematic Desensitization in Horse Training

Now, I kinda agree , far as what this link states, so lets read the info, then watch what the trainers , who are subjects in this topic are using, and then base our thoughts on that, versus Temple Grandin, round holes and square pegs, , ect


AnoTher source of definition of flooding, plus various other terminologies, as related to training methods

Flooding is prolonged exposure to a stimulus until the horse eventually stops reacting. This is the opposite of the approach taken in desensitization. It is far more stressful than any of the other treatment strategies and if not used correctly could make things worse. This technique should be used only by a professional and only as a last resort.



http://www.merckvetmanual.com/pethe...f_horses/behavior_modification_in_horses.html


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> Hmmm, I thought my self desensitisation of spiders was going well until I read your attached little list Reining... I've got as far as 4th on the list, doing well, but no. 5 & above made me seriously shudder. Still, there was a time when I couldn't even touch the page of a book if there was a spider photo on it...


The spider chart really brings it home. Except for maybe a black widow or brown recluse, I have no problem at all watching a spider crawl on my arm and certainly have nothing called a phobia of the widow or recluse.

I unloaded a bunch of panels down by the ranch house the other day where the herd often hangs out waiting to be put in their pens for feed and we were talking specifically about how various horses reacted to the stack of panels.

Some hardly seemed to notice while some appeared to think the world was coming to an end.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> How in the heck did we even get on her as a subject?


I reckon about the same way we got on Ted Bundy as a subject?

I've heard Bundy's name tossed around but I was apparently not watching the news through that period of time.

Out of curiosity I Googled Ted Bundy. Wound up watching a 30 minute video of his last interview prior to execution. No way to enter his mind to determine if the interview was real but it seemed to be, at least to me. Very thought provoking.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I have been intending to make one more comment about the woman writing the blog about the swimming class.

Her statement towards the end, to me, reveals a person of unusual high character.

Quote: " Despite my feelings over this issue, I can’t even begin to judge this man or other people who train their horses in this manner. I have no doubt in my mind that both the trainer and the owner of this young gelding didn’t mean to harm him; they thought they were helping him. Just like my son’s swim teacher thought she was teaching him how to swim. "


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I am talking of a horse that anticipates, versus one that is not responsive
> A horse can learn to associate certain tack and even a rider, with expectations
> How well do you think, that show jumper, getting set to jump a course, is going to ride a calm trail pattern?...


I have no idea what that has to do with flooding or any training technique. Flooding seems to be a technique where the horse is completely overwhelmed. It seems like boot camp theory - break the new recruit down so you can then build a soldier.

*"However vicious he may be, the animal quickly learns that resistance is in vain. This feeling of helplessness causes him to abandon the struggle; his spirit is subdued; he is resigned to obedience" - General Faverot de Kerbrech*

There may be some horses who need that. I don't know. But if you need to destroy the horse's will so you can impose yours, is it worth it?

I understand it for some work horses, where the horse IS a tool (as are the men) and all the boss cares about is results. Been there, done that, hated it.

It treats the horse like a clump of clay, needing to be reformed into the image in the artist's mind. Which is fine for clay, but not so impressive with a living being.



Smilie said:


> ...Never said to throw trust out the window either, nor to push a horse into fight/fight mode. The horse should be calmer after a lesson, then before it started. If he is scared of a a plastic bag...but have the horse trust you, accept having that plastic bag on him, by using approach and retreat...This is just common de sensitizing, and if you want to call it flooding, be my guest!...


Never said you use flooding. It sounds like no one on this thread uses it.

I thought these were interesting:

Learned Helplessness and What It Taught Me About Training Horses. : On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch

Also:

"In order to fully understand what LH actually is, it’s useful—but certainly not pleasant—to describe its discovery by psychologists. Dogs were put in a test pen which was separated into two halves by a small barrier with an electrifiable floor on the start side. A warning light signal was given just before the floor was electrified. Dogs quickly learnt that the light meant “jump” (over the barrier) to avoid getting a shock. Some of these dogs were then tied up so that they could not avoid the shock that followed the light signal. These dogs were then untied and the light signal given again but they no longer attempted to avoid the shock by jumping over the barrier, and were deemed to have developed learned helplessness."

Learned Helplessness in Horses | TheHorse.com

"Learned helplessness can also develop when an animal is unable to escape from pain or distress, no matter how hard he tries. It leads to a depressed emotional state that is sometimes mistaken for obedience. Flooding is commonly used in horse training. It’s dramatic and can get quick results, which rewards the trainer with a strong sense of accomplishment. But when flooding backfires, the problem becomes much worse. For example, I was consulted after a failed flooding attempt involving a young Arabian gelding who was afraid of white plastic bags. The previous trainer had performed flooding by confining the horse in a stall with 100 plastic bags tied to every surface. From what I was told, the horse went berserk—screaming, frantically circling, and kicking the walls. Within a few minutes, he kicked out the stall door and ran off. From that moment on, the horse had refused to enter any stall and was more fearful than ever of plastic bags."

The 'Horse Waterboarding' Incident Deconstructed | TheHorse.com

Don't know if it is accurate, but I liked the explanations found here:

Are We Habituating to Inaccurate Terminology within the Field of Equestrian Science, and is this Overshadowing Our Progress? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

I also liked this, although it doesn't deal with flooding. It discusses the "Strong Leader" theory of horse training:

https://wildequus.org/2013/03/28/snapping-at-alphas-and-submission-in-horses/

I think it supports my own belief that much of what we call "being a leader" is viewed as "bullying" by a horse. I am increasingly convinced that trust in horses is developed like it is with humans - by showing you DESERVE trust. It supports my belief that a lot of "natural horsemanship" is not "natural" at all, but simply dominance.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> How about starting here, so we know what we are talking about:
> 
> _During flooding, the horse is completely and utterly exposed to a thing or a situation that causes him fear. The horse is prevented from escaping the situation or object, by either direct physical restraint or confinement – haltered and held, tied, contained in a space he is unable to escape from etc. The horse is kept with the source of fear, until he stops responding to it._
> _ - See more at: __Flooding and Systematic Desensitization in Horse Training_


And yet the method of training a horse to 'solid tie' by tying it to something that it can't break from using a halter that won't easily break and then leaving it to 'get on with it' is still commonly used and recommended by many.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> And yet the method of training a horse to 'solid tie' by tying it to something that it can't break from using a halter that won't easily break and then leaving it to 'get on with it' is still commonly used and recommended by many.


Yes, That is used by some, but it is not what is considered correct,a nd you take it in context.
Thus, you never tie ahrose solid, until he is 100% solid on giving to pressure, and when tying is practiced like that, using that trying regularly as part of training, horses generally accept it, and never learn to 'fight it out', same as when being led, never learn to pull away, if done correctly
Gone are the days, in my books, using good hrose training, where you take a horse, little handled, never taught to give to pressure , and snub him up to a post, \to fight it out'.
HOWEVER, and there always is a 'but, an 'exception', based on circumstances and the fundamental problem, that one learns to assess, as a horse person

THus, a horse that used to tie well, at first has a genuine fear spook, and breaks loose. Many horses learn by that, and then it takes very little for them to set back, or they only stand tied, until they no longer feel like it
In that case, the knows knows perfectly well how to give to that pressure and stand tied, but has found out he does not have to.
In that case, you either live with ahorse that won't stand tied, or you tie him in such a manner that future attempts to break loose, are not successful, and the hrose then accepts again, standing tied with just a halter and lead shank
My horses need to tie. Thus if I ever have a halter puller, then I will tie him with a body rope a few times, in a safe place
Trained correctly from day one, you never should have a halter puller to begin with, a horse that 'fights it out
None of the hroses we raised, were ever halter pullers, or ever were tied to fight it out. They were taught to accept tying, same as leading, same as anyuthing else
I did buy a halter puller, that came that way, off the track
Smilie has a brief period, through no fault of her own, that she halter pulled.
My son, going through a divorce, came to visit me, and I gave him Smilie to ride, while I rode another horse.
This usually very careful horseman, mind distracted, cinched Smilie up suddenly, and without noticing that the cinch was twisted. She of course, sat back, and broke free.
After that, she would use very little excuses to try and offer to set back-simple as me pinning on her show number
Even though she was my prime show horse at that time, I tied her with a body rope.She set back hard, twice, then never offered to halter pull again.
It has been 6 years at least, and she has never again resorted to offering to halter pull
Thus, taking an un trained horse, never taught to give to pressure, and just tying him, so he can't break loose, left to fight it out, I agree, is completely wrong, and would be considered flooding
On the other hand, taking a horse that has learned to halter pull, been accidentally rewarded for doing so, is a whole different matter. That horse has learned he does not need to give tot hat pressure, is not pulling back out of fear, but just because he has learned he can break free. Whatever mis handling caused that, you then have a problem, like any other training problem, be it rearing, balking, bucking, pulling away while led, and you either learn to live with those vises, make accommodations, or you decide to fix the horse. That is not flooding, but merely making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, the right thing successful, and the wrong thing unsucessful


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## avjudge (Feb 1, 2011)

jaydee said:


> And yet the method of training a horse to 'solid tie' by tying it to something that it can't break from using a halter that won't easily break and then leaving it to 'get on with it' is still commonly used and recommended by many.


If the horse is fearful, I agree, that would be absolutely the wrong approach. 

But I used that for my horse (lo, these many years ago) - and I still firmly believe it was the correct thing for her. Because _she wasn't fearful_ so it wasn't flooding. She had learned that if she was tired of standing, she just had to sit back and she could break free and do what she wanted to do. If it didn't work this time, it might the next. So for years we never tied her with something she could break.

ETA - and now I see Smilie just said pretty much the same thing, with a lot more experience behind it


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

avjudge said:


> If the horse is fearful, I agree, that would be absolutely the wrong approach.
> 
> But I used that for my horse (lo, these many years ago) - and I still firmly believe it was the correct thing for her. Because _she wasn't fearful_ so it wasn't flooding. She had learned that if she was tired of standing, she just had to sit back and she could break free and do what she wanted to do. If it didn't work this time, it might the next. So for years we never tied her with something she could break.
> 
> ETA - and now I see Smilie just said pretty much the same thing, with a lot more experience behind it


 And that is why having the experience to know when it's appropriate and when it isn't makes all the difference in the end result. It worries me when I see newbies, especially those with green horses being told to do things that could result in a real wreck.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

A friend's horse was very terrified of plastic bags. We tried some desensitizing methods, but they didn't work. She was just too fearful to even listen to the sound of plastic crinkling and would shut down mentally rather than becoming accustomed to it. She'd stand there but her eyes would glaze over and she'd be shaking. You couldn't help flooding her anytime a grain bag opened, or bag of bedding nearby.

My friend accidentally found a way to get her over it. She brought treats in a tiny sandwich bag, and doled them out to all the horses. The horse noticed even in her state that the other horses were getting treats, but my friend didn't give her any until she left her frozen state and came to the stall door. Soon she would accept a treat after the other horses. My friend started bringing the treats in slightly larger bags each day, until the horse was nosing around inside a big, crinkly bag for treats. She actually started going up to bags on her own to look at them rather than being afraid.

I agree with @jaydee that flooding can be very dangerous, especially for newbies. I remember a horse that was terrified of fly spray, so we decided to put her in a stall and just spray her down. The horse's owner leaned against the stall door while I went in the stall and sprayed the horse. As soon as I sprayed the horse the first time, the horse galloped forward, slammed against the swinging stall door, broke the latch and sent the owner flying across the barn. She sprained her wrist. 

In those days, I had thought it best just to get the horse over it. But after this accident we backed way off. I'd brush the horse for awhile, then do a half squirt into a rag, and then do something else while she relaxed again. It took some time for her to realize that sound would not hurt her, but desensitizing rather than flooding was what finally worked.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think we are all on the same page,far as flooding
As per my post, flooding is not what is being applied, when a horse that knows how to give to pressure, stands tied, then through a true fear spook, at first, breaking free, then learns to halter pull whenever that horse does not wish to stand tied
That is then a learned vise, that you either live with, never tying that horse again, or, you fix that horse.
In all the links I posted, \i don't think there is one that supports flooding, but does differentiate between flooding and desensitizing, which are not one and the same.
Yes, putting a horse in a stall, just loose and trying to use a fly spray bottle, is not the correct thing to do!
That owner obviously had no horse sense, and you could have been seriously hurt!
You first have that horse respectful of a halter and lead shank, and use along lead shank, if needed. You then use the approach and retreat, going with the horse some, if needed, knowing when to back off, never pushing that horse into either flight or fight mode
I have never had a horse take long to accept being sprayed this way, and usually is fine tied and sprayed, after the first lesson.
Ditto for that first bath, as described
I don't think anyone was giving flooding info advise, and yes, any hrose advise , over the internet can be dangerous, misapplied by beginner horse people, but when they ask advise, as to how to deal with a problem, besides putting in the disclaimer, 'get the help of a trainer' most people then try to give some helpful advise,esp if that person states that they have no money to hire a trainer
A horse that is so scared of plastic, even held by a familiar person, who uses desensitizing, NOt flooding (read above definitions of the differences ) is a horse that has yet to develop trust and respect for that person
We don't have chickens, The person who owns the indooor arena that I ride at, does. She put those chickens, when it got cold, in the first stall, by the side entry door.
Yes, Charlie sure was upset, when she first came through that door, and heard that flapping, squawking and crowing!
She she got 'high' at first, but never tried to pull away. As I reassured her, and gradually took her up tot hat stall front, she trusted me, calmed down, and eventually just stood there, looking curiously at those chickens
I think if you have horse, that goes so' nutso', better work on some trust and respect, before trying any desensitizing, or maybe ask yourself if you want to be riding such a horse, when it encounters something that will set it off as much as that plastic,, first time it sees it!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@gottatrot's story on the plastic bags sounds like a good example of what I just read in one of the links called Counter Conditioning. And I also read, in the same link I think, that horses learn from watching other horses.

That makes me proud of myself when I was giving Rimmey treats as I slowly waved my hands above his head and vigorously over Hondo's head while Rimmey was watching in effort to reduce his head shyness. And it worked really well.

Same with Rimmey's feet. No restraints in either case.

Don't worry about me being proud of myself, I've got a lot not to be proud of! 

I think the link was one of @bsms's. I need to start a collection of posts and links.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses might get reassured by another horse;s reactions, as that is all part of their herd/prey mechanism. Horses stare at some suspicious object, some lead horses then use body language that shows they do not consider that object a threat, and the rest of the herd also relaxes
On the other hand, horses really don't learn from each other, which would really make training a cinch-clinic for horses, just absorbing a lesson being taught on another horse!
On the other hand, it is also a good thing they don't learn from one another, or I would not be able to keep grazing muzzles on any of my horses, after they watched Carmen!
Never yet had a horse difficult to de -worm, get better just watching another horse that is easy to de-worm
Sure, they can associate reward, with some object, and thus people have also resorted to placing a treat on a tarp, for a horse that won't cross it
The problem with that approach, is you are using a bribe, and I rather give a reward, AFTER the horse does a task, if I am going to use R+
I don't work on the hopes that if I expose the horse to everything possible, then that horse is de -sensitized.
I do very little de sensitizing, but a whole lot on respect, which generates trust, and so you then can get you and the horse , safely through stuff they have never encountered before
For instance, at some early shows that I took Charlie to, she got exposed to stuff that were quite scary, and that I certainly never exposed her to before. 
First, was mini horses, and ponies, warming up for the driving classes.
The fact that other horses there, who had been exposed to horses pulling carts, and were un concerned, did not automatically have Charlie learning from them, as when those driving hroses came up behind her
I thus asked one lady, if I could just follow behind her, in those outside grounds, while she was warming up. It worked, as that Cart moved 'away from us, plus trust.
Second thing , that I had never prepared Charlie for, was an umbrella, suddenly being opened by someone walking towards her. Yes, there are people that watch horse shows, and have no horse sense!

I had just gotten on Charlie, at my trailer, and a woman, walking towards us, suddenly opened her umbella, as it had started to drizzle. I sure needed something beyond a gradual de sensitization! In that case, trust, and conditioned body control response, saved the day !

A horse might accept plastic, by eventually learning it contains a treat, but that still might not be enough, when something like what happened to Stitch (full sister to Smilie) when I was riding her. I had just gotten on her, again, out by my trailer, on a windy day.
A plastic bag blew right under her belly. You need other things besides just gradual de sensitization, and one is teaching a horse to face the object of his fear, trust you, and not try to' leave 'Dodge'


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia hated being hosed down. With a lot of work, we got her to sometimes accept some water on her legs. But she could get violent with fear pretty quick - all about being hosed down. Get water on her back and she could turn into a rearing, eye-rolling nightmare.

A couple of summers back, I was hosing down Cowboy. Cowboy LOVES water hoses - anywhere:










One day, Mia was watching him. She watched very closely. Then she walked up to me, about 5 feet away. I thought "What the heck?" - and started spraying her back. She tensed...and then...cool water running on her back when it was 100 degrees out. Ahhhhhh! So THAT'S what Cowboy liked!

She was a piece of cake to hose down ever after.

Horses are not quick to learn for others, but I'm pretty sure they sometimes do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think they can observe, recognize something is not scary from another horse,as a green horse will often just follow a seasoned horse over a tarp, But I don't believe they truly learn from each other.
I know that is a fine line, often not really distinguishable, but is still there none the less, , in my mind
We can use that desire to copy, trust a fellow herd specie's judgement, often to our advantage
A horse cannot watch another horse being trained, to perform some maneuver, and then just do it, while ridden 
A horse can be tied right next to a horse that has learned how to untie himself, and luckily, not just then absorb that technique and apply it himself-good thing!


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Smilie;9578474)
The problem with that approach said:


> This made me think of an example of why trust is important.
> I was trailering with a friend who had a slant load. My horse had never been in a slant load before. My friend started unloading the horses while I unloaded tack. She always unties her horses then let's them turn around and walk out on their own. I always back mine out. My horse started backing out, then tried to turn around in the doorway and got stuck. Fortunately he trusted me enough to get him unstuck instead of thrashing around which could have seriously hurt him.
> I take precautions to avoid situations like that now, but it wasn't really a situation I could have anticipated at the time so there was really no way to desensitize against it.
> Your horse has to be willing to rely on your Judgment at times like this and look to you for leadership.
> I'm sure techniques like flooding have their place when used correctly, but I think something like that would undermine the foundation of trust you trying to build with your horse


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Sure, they can associate reward, with some object, and thus people have also resorted to placing a treat on a tarp, for a horse that won't  cross it
> The problem with that approach, is you are using a bribe, and I rather give a reward, AFTER the horse does a task, if I am going to use R+


Yes, it can very easily become 'bribery'. In order to get a behaviour happening in the first place, and especially to start associating something with a 'good' emotional response, I don't think there's anything wrong with 'luring' to begin with. You have to make sure you're doing it in easy enough increments for the horse to *want* to get the treat. But once the behaviour is established, then it's important to quit bribery & just reward WHEN the horse does the task.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I treat. I treat for counter conditioning. I treat for a reward. Sometimes I treat just because I want to and because the horse likes it. 

I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. But as a reward has worked very well for me.

There is research that shows learning occurs more efficiently with treats given at any time. One suggestion is that it simply causes the horse to stay more focused on the trainer, but for what ever the reason, it does seem to help according to the studies that studied it.

Past President Regan always had a jar of Jelly Bellys on a table for meetings. His notion was that difficult decisions and difficult meetings went better with a nice taste in the mouth. Maybe that works for horses also.

Another thought (or question) occurred to me: I always have an inner feeling of affection when presenting a treat at any time for what ever reason. I wonder if the horse senses that feeling and if that has an effect also.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. ... I always have an inner feeling of affection when presenting a treat at any time for what ever reason. I wonder if the horse senses that feeling and if that has an effect also.


I bet you have different 'inner feelings' when trying to bribe! ;-) I think horses key into the way we're feeling, our intentions, so much. And especially when trying to lure a horse into something scary, it's vital to keep that trust, that respect & honesty, I reckon. Otherwise it can come across that we're trying to con the horse into something Bad.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Folks recommend singing if you are getting nervous. It wasn't long before Mia (the rather spooky mare I used to own) assumed my singing meant SHE ought to get nervous! I can fool my horse once or twice, but they always see thru me in the end.

I got better results when I'd say, "_If we're going to get busted up, let's get busted up together!_" Except, of course, those times when she'd reply, "_I'd rather stay whole. All engines, reverse!_"


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I am very much opposed to flooding, but have used desensitization very successfully as it was described above by Smilie, among others. 

My mare was flooded using hobbles. Flooding causes the horse to shut down rather than process what is happening and accept it. As a result, when she came to me supposedly bombproof and beginner-safe, she was scared of her own shadow - quite literally. She spooked very badly twice when I was on her and I came flying off. I hired a trainer to help desensitize her and after a couple of months, she had improved tremendously, but we never flooded her. She was always on a loose lead in the paddock when she was exposed to plastic bags, a tarp, etc. so she didn't feel trapped. It took a long time to undo the damage down by previous well-meaning owners. Flooding is just a way to temporarily repress the reactiveness in a horse, but it will come out in other forms, guaranteed.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Hondo said:


> I treat. I treat for counter conditioning. I treat for a reward. Sometimes I treat just because I want to and because the horse likes it.
> 
> I have tried treating to bribe and the horse seemed to sense it. Didn't work. But as a reward has worked very well for me.
> 
> ...


Treats are also effective because they encourage chewing, which helps the horse release the tightness in its jaw. If you have a very nervous mare like mine was, who clenches her teeth when she's nervous, the chewing is a way to help them relax - so it has a lot of benefits!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think you have to differentiate between what's a bribe and what's just creating a positive association with something
I've seen lots of horses that were very terribly nervous about being on a trailer or horsebox completely turned around by putting their feed in it and then leaving them to figure it out for themselves - I don't think the horse's saw that as bribery but as the trailer not being a scary place but a place where good things happened
If you put a treat in a plastic bag and make a really big deal of rustling it around when you get the treat out the horse learns to associate that bag and the strange noises with something good and not something terrifying
I will say though, if I'm in a win or lose situation and bribery is the last option on my list of things to try I'll use it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, finding the 'balance', as in the thread I posted, through experience, is what in the end, creates a willing , confident horse


l place alink to that thread here, as it has points very applicable


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-training-balance-735818/


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