# Who'd love to be this trainer's apprentice?



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Please note: I'm talking about his horse training only, not condoning his use for it in any way! The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE": Merlin--registered name Orpheo


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

Gorgeous working horse.. gotta say that I absolutely hate the use they're putting him to, but he's good at his job.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I have to say, that was pretty amazing. I've been told that dressage is dancing, but _this_ is incredible! I've never seen a horse move like that in my life. That horse has heart.


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## shesinthebarn (Aug 1, 2009)

Wow, major agility and "cow" displayed by that horse! Unreal...
I do hate bull fighting, but if you look beyond that and just focus on the horse, it's quite impressive!


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## payette (Jun 3, 2010)

Wow. All I can say is Wow.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Wanna know why he's so great? Cause he's got Quarter Horse in him. 

Just kidding. 

I enjoyed watching that, even though that bull's horn came pretty darn close to his butt quite a few times.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Glad you enjoyed Merlin (horse)! This pair rather sets a standard that's now indelibly etched in the minds of many who've seen them.


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow that is amazing. He is an amazing horse it looks like!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I didn't enjoy frankly. I think it's totally awful even though the way horse moves and all is impressive.


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

I have to agree with this quote (from the page the video was on):


> Fact is, Merlin and Pablo are performing high level dressage movements in the face of a charging bull.


I don't really like the thought of bullfighting, but you've got to commend the horse/rider team for their bravery.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

That's just _amazing!_ I've never seen anything like it!


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

I am a cowgirl to the core, and have always thought dressage moves were just fru-fru fancy footwork.

I watched this................MIND BLOWN! that 2min 30 sec video just changed my whole perspective on dressage work. It can actually be practical as well as pretty. I don't want to be in an arena with a bull, But I want to try that work in the cow pasture I ride in! Incredible horse.


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

karleen, not sure I would call this bravery, as the rider is putting himself in the position.. and causing the bull to behave that way by stabbing it repeatedly.. but it is truly an athletic and impressive horse.


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

No you don't cruelty is cruelty..I am no crazy PETA person and I understand what you mean when you say look at the movement of that horse, but the pain that animal endured is not something we as horse lovers can turn away from..a cow feels pain the same way our beloved horses do


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

Imagine if they were stabbing a horse like that...the world would be outraged I hope?


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

Whether or not it is provoked, you still have to be pretty darn brave to be doing that. Even _more_ so to be encouraging the bull to attack you.

I'm not the OP, but I am 95% sure that this thread was not started to discuss the ethics of bullfighting. It was started to show the incredible partnership between horse and rider and the amazing moves of that horse - which simply cannot be argued with. That horse can move!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't condone bullfighting. I think it is very cruel. But I can hardly notice the bull with my eyes on Merlin. I think he is truly amazing. I have never seen a horse move that way before. It is one of my favorite videos on the net.


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

Sorry, the horse is amazing, but there is no bravery here.


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## BJJ (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow! I have to say I was so intent on the horse that the bullfighting was really not even there for me. I realllllly need to step my riding up a notch (how inspiring).


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

This is part of the problem! We look at the horse who is not so different from a cow....i know breeding intelligence sensitivity...it is true but cows and horses get along great because they "get" each other. They are similar creatures...I love horses but any true animal lover can not look at this video without cringing. It's like foxhunting...I would love to run around in a field and jump and be with other horsepeole.....but I have no interest in killing a woodland creature for sport. And bullfighting is not a sport...it is a spectacle.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

*shrugs* Says you. Horseback riders put their mounts in immense danger every single day - or are you also completely against show jumping, eventing, barrel racing, racing, etc? Or is it acceptable that we break our horses legs and cause them great pain for our personal entertainment or agenda simply because we "didn't mean to"?

Ignorance can be worse then intention.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

The horse was beautiful.

It is a terrible beauty though, watching the video. I guess I would akin it to seeing a single white rose blooming on a battlefield of fallen soldiers.


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## Skutterbotch (Dec 1, 2009)

very well said draft


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A horse is a horse, of course, of course, & this was about the horse, of course, because of course the horse of course, is the famous Me-er-lin! Go right to the source & ask the horse, he'll give you the answer that you endorse, he's always on a steady course, the famous Merlin!


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## BritishReiner (Feb 12, 2010)

WOW!

He would make quite a cutting horse


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Gee Northern, sorry to tell you that its hard to just look at the horse when the bull is having things stabbed into his back and blood streaming down his shoulders. I'm not a Peta freak but its not humane in any way shape or form to go around stabbing animals with spears in the name of sport. Had this been a puppy the guy was stabbing no one would be saying "oh what a beautiful horse" they'd be expressing outrage that no one in the crowd stopped him and demanding his head on a platter.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

draftrider said:


> Gee Northern, sorry to tell you that its hard to just look at the horse when the bull is having things stabbed into his back and blood streaming down his shoulders. I'm not a Peta freak but its not humane in any way shape or form to go around stabbing animals with spears in the name of sport. Had this been a puppy the guy was stabbing no one would be saying "oh what a beautiful horse" they'd be expressing outrage that no one in the crowd stopped him and demanding his head on a platter.


Hmm...I agree with this.


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## goforgait (Jun 26, 2010)

A little scary for horse and rider but Wow score for training


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

well, at least we aren't so entertained by people killing people any longer, because as I recall, that's why the coliseum was built, guess there is hope that some people's source of delight will evolve...although, unfortunately cage-fighting and the UFC does still exist...

any who, I've watched the video before, and it is amazing..i like to show it to people that aren't clear of what it means when you tell them their horse is heavy on the forehand. it almost seems as if all four legs move independently from one another, which is what i suppose is easier to do when the energy comes from the back end of the horse. Merlin is an awesome horse, but I won't be surprised when I read about how an arena injury forces him to be put down, ala Eight Belles


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I would rather see humans willingly kill each other in the name of sport, at least they have a choice about it. Does the bull?


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

actually, if we are still talking about the Romans, a majority of them didn't. I don't like the idea of bull-fighting either, I struggle to understand what is so entertaining about it other than to watch the horse and rider. Why can't they use something more humane to tag the bull with?


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

Agreed seahorseys, why not mark it with a paint stick or something? Still have to get in just as close but without harming the bull. And as for comparing it to UFC and cage fighting, it's completely different in 2 ways. 1) The men CHOOSE to enter the cage and 2) it is supposed to end well before serious injury occurs, by which I mean life threatening injury. The whole purpose of the bull fighting is to torment and torture the bull before killing it. Not sure how this shows anything but a twisted side of human nature.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Maybe if you could be bothered to actually do some of your own research, you'd understand that the reason behind bull fighting is deeply entrenched in tradition.

It makes me laugh how people deem themselves so worthy to judge others without bothering to reflect their OWN culture and history.

I'm sure the Spanish think they way we slaughter our food is just peachy keen too. But we're not twisted like them right?


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Yeah well the times they need ta be a changin' now and then.

For one thing, we aren't killin Christians for sport no more after all. And we haven't gotten slaves lately from Afrika. So maybe traditions change and for good reason? Now, lets go tackle some more stuff, maybe we could convince Middle Easterners to let their women walk around baring some skin other than around their eyeballs, and oh lets not forget the tradition of FGM in third world countries. Those are 2 traditions that don't need to exist anymore than bloody bullfighting. 

This isn't how anyone slaughters their food. Its a sport! Kinda like we sit around the TV and watch football, the Spanish go to a bullfight. 

But, back to the video. I would not have had a problem with the video had the bull not been abused like that. Just dancing around it would have been beautiful. A savage beauty, but beautiful. The stabbing and blood ruined it for me. Ya'll asked opinions, I gave it. Don't trash my opinion.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

You're right, it's not. We're a lot more grotesque about how we treat our food.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Really? A modern slaughterhouse is less humane than slowly bleeding to death from being stabbed repeatedly in the back and spine? A captive bolt gun is less humane than this?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

An animal by far understands being able to attack it's attacker much more so then simply being prodded and controlled by fear. 

Bulls do not have human emotion. A human with a pointy stick is no different then a cougar with point claws. They are equipped and designed to fight back, which makes a LOT more sense to a prey animal then being kept in closed confines where people use fear to control them and they have no ability to fight back.

I'm not saying I necessarily AGREE with it, I am saying maybe we should look at our OWN culture before being so quick to judge another.


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

macabremikolaj, it doesn't MATTER how much tradition is behind it when they are still tormenting and torturing that animal. No, not all slaughterhouses are kind but you know what, people are omnivores, meant to eat meat. It's the food chain. Just because I believe in eating it doesn't make me twisted, I don't go out and torture the things I eat. 

If you think that a slaughterhouse is less humane than running that bull in circles WHILE stabbing him for no reason when they could very easily just go for a kill shot, you're bonkers. It's cruelty and nothing else. Regardless of how "traditional" it is.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Well, MY culture is different from YOUR culture. MY culture- we respect animals and give thanks for their service, and give thanks for their lives should they die for us. 

I raise my OWN meat. I take their lives myself. I certainly don't run my steers in circles getting their heart pumping and stab them in the back until the collapse. A careful single shot with a .40 caliber rifle and they drop instantly brain dead. They aren't scared, they aren't upset, they are eating corn one minute and dead the next.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

BellaAndOlly said:


> macabremikolaj, it doesn't MATTER how much tradition is behind it when they are still tormenting and torturing that animal. No, not all slaughterhouses are kind but you know what, people are omnivores, meant to eat meat. It's the food chain. Just because I believe in eating it doesn't make me twisted, I don't go out and torture the things I eat.
> 
> If you think that a slaughterhouse is less humane than running that bull in circles WHILE stabbing him for no reason when they could very easily just go for a kill shot, you're bonkers. It's cruelty and nothing else. Regardless of how "traditional" it is.


No, you pay extra for someone ELSE to go out and torture you're food. Congrats, you're a stand up citizen because you refuse to acknowledge how your food actually got on your plate.

Until you pick up a gun like draftrider and go kill your own food, you're WORSE then someone who runs a bull in circles because you sit on your high horse and pretend you're somehow removed from the abuse because you don't PERSONALLY partake in it - you just reap the benefits of it.


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm not ABLE to have my own livestock, simply for the fact that I live in town and don't have any property. And no, they don't torture the animals. They don't chase them and stab them repeatedly. They kill them with one push of a button. Yes, that's much more cruel than chasing a bull for no reason. 

And you know what, I don't sit on my high horse. I'm just able to realize what cruelty is, regardless of it being disguised as tradition. It's completely unnecessary to torment that bull. 

I don't deny that my food came through a slaughterhouse. Where did yours come from? Does that mean I agree with the way the animals are treated? No. But one person not purchasing meat isn't gonna stop the slaughterhouses. Nor is one voice gonna change anything.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Does you saying it make it any more true? Not really. The abuses our food suffer throughout their entire lives is horrific - and it begins LONG before they're finally put out of their misery.

I do not fully agree with how our food is raised, nor do I agree with bull fighting. My POINT is to make you look beyond what you see with tunnel vision and to realize you calling someone else "sick and twisted" for doing what tradition has preached for years is the height of hypocricy when you continue to eat meat, regardless of whether you refuse to accept or not how badly our food is treated when it's alive.

At least he's facing the bull head on and giving it a chance to fight back. You're hiding behind fable and myth that you choose to believe so you won't have to face the horror on your plate. How is that any less sadistic?


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

How do you come off telling me that I have tunnel vision? You don't even know me. Just because that bull rider is sadistically torturing an animal for his own and other's pleasure makes me a hypocrite? Not quite. 

I don't hide behind anything, I already told you, I know what goes on in the slaughterhouses. I'm not blind to anything, but again, does knowing about it make it different? No. Does knowing about it make what that man is doing to that bull "for fun" any less twisted and cruel? No. It doesn't. Do his "traditions" make it any less cruel? NO. End of story.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I'm not necessarily saying the man isn't twisted and cruel.

What I am saying is that if HE is twisted and cruel - then so are you.

End of story.


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

I cannot find ANYTHING on Rafi Dumond via a Google search. I think he's mythical or something.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

draftrider said:


> Gee Northern, sorry to tell you that *its hard to just look at the horse when the bull is having things stabbed into his back and blood streaming down his shoulders.* I'm not a Peta freak but its not humane in any way shape or form to go around stabbing animals with spears in the name of sport. Had this been a puppy the guy was stabbing no one would be saying "oh what a beautiful horse" they'd be expressing outrage that no one in the crowd stopped him and demanding his head on a platter.


!! Agree. I'm not a PETA follower in any way (and I'd say even opposite, I really dislike some things they say and the ways they want things to be done), but it's just cruelty, which hides the beauty of the horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Maybe if you could be bothered to actually do some of your own research, you'd understand that the reason behind bull fighting is deeply entrenched in tradition.


MM, doesn't matter if it's traditional or not, you still have a right to own opinion and to express that opinion (given it's done in a polite way). And something being "traditional" does not mean it's right.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

People are completely missing my point.

I am not defending bull fighting. I do not think it's "right". What I am trying to point out is that freaking out and calling the bull fighter "a sick twisted sadistic mofo" is ridiculous. He's not DOING it for some sick and twisted pleasure - in his eyes, the bull is a worthy advesary and they are doing a "dance of the ages", pitting man against beast.

My end point is that jumping to assumptions based on what you see in front of you makes an opinion seem baseless. At least they have the defense of tradition - what defense do we have for how we treat our livestock?

I'm not trying to defend it, I'm trying to make people understand before going off the handle and likening these individuals to serial killers who prey on children.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Ok MM I get your point. For a while I thought you were off your rocker and defending this practice.

Slaughterhouse cruelty exists. The vast majority of them are NOT overtly inhumane though. I have worked in several feedlots, slaughterhouses and a packing plant. I did so because I wanted to learn the skills necessary to process my own meat. I did see stuff that disturbed me, and I brought it to the attention of the house owner who put a stop to it- such as men kicking cows when they wouldn't line up and file in. 

There are... sick and sadistic people everywhere. I think sometimes that they do tend to gravitate towards activities that give them a little rush, such as the man who has to use a captive bolt gun on cows 12 hours a day all week long. But, I also met a lot of very honest and caring people at the yards too, who genuinely DID care about the animals and did everything they could to make it as untraumatic and painless as possible.

There are many cruelties in the livestock industry. Dehorning, castrating... all are necessary evils in their opinion. There IS a better way. Sadly not everyone lives on a farm to raise their own anymore.

What I would say is that if you cannot raise your own meat, milk and eggs, to either choose to live a vegetarian lifestyle, or to support local farmers. Visit farmers markets, get to know them. You can purchase your meat through local co-ops so you don't need to buy a whole steer at a time =) You are going to get delicious, healthy meat and you will know it was treated humanely.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I am not defending bull fighting. I do not think it's "right". What I am trying to point out is that freaking out and calling the bull fighter "a sick twisted sadistic mofo" is ridiculous. He's not DOING it for some sick and twisted pleasure - in his eyes, the bull is a worthy advesary and they are doing a "dance of the ages", pitting man against beast.


I didn't even think you are defending bull fighting!  

As for everything else... Well... Killing the woman with stones in some Muslim countries just because she was raped by someone.... It's been a tradition for centrures. Do you think calling those people "murderers" (I can't think of a better word at the moment) is ridiculous? In their eyes it's not "the murder", it's a "deserved punishment of the ages". I'm not trying to compare animal with people here, but I just don't see why I have to respect that "dance of the ages", which I do find cruel. And BTW yes you are right, there is lots of cruelty here in US as well, which is very sad. Do people try to do something about it? Many people indeed try.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Oh for sure! I agree it's cruel. I think my problem is just in trying to call these people "sick and twisted" and indicating they get some sick pleasure from it, like a serial killer who tortures his victims. I just don't find them anymore sick and twisted then people who partake/watch rodeos, or people who event their horses KNOWING they'll be injured and very possibly killed at some point. We're all cruel in our own way, whether we intend it or not. So long as we use animals for our own entertainment, we will all partake in an act of cruelty, regardless if it was intentional or not.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, and I've always tried to put myself in someone elses shoes. I was just trying to open the conversation up to seeing the picture as a whole instead of focusing on someone killing an animal. To me it's like calling a cheetah cruel because of the pain a gazelle may endure during death - why is it cruel when we do it? Because we know better? 

I just like questioning things! :lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^
> 
> Oh for sure! I agree it's cruel. I think my problem is just in trying to call these people "sick and twisted" and indicating they get some sick pleasure from it, like a serial killer who tortures his victims. I just don't find them anymore sick and twisted then people who partake/watch rodeos, or people who event their horses KNOWING they'll be injured and very possibly killed at some point. We're all cruel in our own way, whether we intend it or not. So long as we use animals for our own entertainment, we will all partake in an act of cruelty, regardless if it was intentional or not.
> 
> ...


Oh, yes, you are right. There are lots of people everywhere here, who do cruel things to the horses (like some you mentioned) without even thinking about it being cruel. I'd say "without even thinking" is the key problem here. Because we have the brain we can (occasionally) use for that purpose (and what makes us different from the cheetah :wink: ).


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Imo, MM has made some very thoughtful posts here. _It's true_ that we need to look at the lives of stock in our feedlots, the way in which we slaughter them, rodeo, CC jumps, etc.. I did some digging on the mindset of bullfighters, & found that a bullfighter can respect & "love"--direct quote--the bull, and can wish to & work to bring out the best (valor, physical deftness) in the bull, as well as use the fight to bring out the best in himself. The fight is not a situation where cowards sadistically torture a defenseless bull because the bull & matador are one-to-one, enabling the victory to be either one's, & the matador cannot be a coward for the fight to even take place. Also, if the bull has fought with valor, the matador is allowed to spare his life, & he never has to fight again, instead gets a luxurious pasture till death. I probably will always prefer the bloodless bullfights (bloodless for the bull, that is), because the spikes & death-blow I find to be cruel, but I still want to learn more.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Northern!  I don't know if I could ever watch a "true" bull fight, I just find cultural differences fascinating.

It's sort of how the cow is revered for Hindus. To them, we must be absolutely barbaric on how we not only treat them, but regard them.

I always like to try walking a mile in someone elses shoes for some insight.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

No, I wouldn't want to work with him. I refuse to associate myself with the bull fighting ring, including being an apprentice to the trainer. It is not something I wish support in any way. There are plenty of wonderful trainers that do not advocate repeatedly spearing animals for sport.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Definitely not a fan of bull fighting, as it always ends in the bull's death...but the horse is absolutely stunning


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## BellaAndOlly (Jun 25, 2010)

MM you're ridiculous. You like to argue and that's the end of it. You like to name call and really, it's petty. Calling me a hypocrite because I FEEL THIS PERSON IS CRUEL is simply stupid. Telling me that I have tunnel vision, again, stupid. You don't know people you're talking to and you immediately jump to the defensive and pull out the name calling, yet you "like to walk a mile in other people's shoes"? Really. I didn't call him "a sick twisted sadistic mofo" nor did I "freak out". I stated my opinion, which you have no right to belittle. I'm done with you.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Sweetie, you're doing the name-calling here. I was attempting to show you another side of the argument and you refuse to hear it, so yes, I do call that tunnel vision. Just because you hate a certain type of music does that mean the person singing it is actually a bad singer? No, and yet so many people convince themselves of that being correct. You are so focused on the cruelty at hand, you refuse to see past it and understand WHY. And yes, I stand by my judgment that you are a hypocrite if you can get SO upset over what is happening to this bull and yet continue eating meat knowing what our food suffers.

And if trying to see past the end of my nose makes me stupid, so be it. I don't like to argue, I merely like to see PAST what's in front of me instead of living my life as a sheeple.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Bulls in corridas have their vocal cords sliced up. 
So you don't hear them in pain. 
All those arrows in their necks have irritant substances on. It burns, it aches.
They ingest some stuff right before entering that also causes them burns and pains and a state of irascibility. And above all, fear.

Yes, the horse is amazing. But f!ck me. I'd rather chase him myself and replace that bull, to entertain the applauding twats, if I could. 

It is abuse. It is a wonderful horse,performing high level dressage, led by a talented dimwit who tortures an agonizing cow.

That's all.
I don;t care about cultural differences. it's still cruel in my eyes.
Why can't they just replace that bull with dunno some trained dogs, an ATV, a motorcycle, a freaking PLANE, Superman with horns, anything?
I would gladly come and pay and watch then...

But as it is now, even if Merlin started reciting Pitagoras theories I would refuse to promote and pass on anything that has to do with this horrible, horrible....amusement form.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

inaclick said:


> Bulls in corridas have their vocal cords sliced up.
> So you don't hear them in pain.
> All those arrows in their necks have irritant substances on. It burns, it aches.
> They ingest some stuff right before entering that also causes them burns and pains and a state of irascibility. And above all, fear.


:shock: Are you serious? 

Wow. We don't have bull fighting in America do we? I didn't know it was that bad.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Your calves / bulls / cows DO make noises during rodeo, etc, and other events...
Because well, they are scared, eh. Cows are not a mute species, they are quite vocal.

You can actually hear them. 

Have you ever heard a single noise made by a corrida bull? :/
They would if they could. 

Research a tad more eventually....it's really really cruel and sadistic and yet it's kept and will never be banned because of this cultural bullcrap.
Certain types of "ethic" bullfights and corridas appeared though and lets hope those gain popularity. Such as some from Latin America where the bull is kept alive. 
To be honest, compared to corridas even the toughest western rodeo seems gentle as an angel's lullaby lol.
Or even those cuckoo-heads from Spain who run away from a huge herd of bulls getting always trampled every year. To be honest, even that seems more fair. At least the humans made a choice in getting chased


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

inaclick said:


> Your calves / bulls / cows DO make noises during rodeo, etc, and other events...
> Because well, they are scared, eh.


You do not seriously believe that?


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

I heard them?!
I mean they are actually able to "baa" something along the lines sometimes.
Corrida bulls are mute(d)
Show me an animal that is chased 2 hours, poked, pierced and stabbed and makes no noise naturally.
Just show me a single one.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

inaclick said:


> I heard them?!
> I mean they are actually able to "baa" something along the lines sometimes.
> Corrida bulls are mute(d)
> Show me an animal that is chased 2 hours, poked, pierced and stabbed and makes no noise naturally.
> Just show me a single one.


Do you actually handle stock?

I do - DAILY.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Post-edit:
Also, although I find many western shows rough, at least they have some sort of practical background.
Such as calf roping and so on. Almost all could be applied in real life with some work result.
But corridas?
Sure, maybe 500 years ago it had some meaning. But now, seeing Mr Hotpants all high and mighty on his horse, chasing that cow all over the place, _biting / cutting its ears off_ and prancing around like a peacock?
What the heck is that?
Why?
To show what? That you can indeed scare the crap out of a bovine and make its last living hours as painful as you can?


Everyone is endowed to an opinion and this is mine. Corridas are cruel and lame.

And regarding Merlin: that horse is poetry on 4 hooves. Replace the bull with a human or a machine or something that does not suffer and die in the end, and I'll become Merlin's number 1 fan


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> You do not seriously believe that?


Calves are definitely very noisy at the team penning, sorting, and cutting events I've been to.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Someone [can't find the post to quote it now, lol] said that being a vegetarian won't make a difference so why try? I am a vegetarian. I don't think I'm going to change the world or make a difference in the lives of animals slaughtered for food. I chose this lifestyle because I feel BETTER about MYSELF for chosing NOT to eat meat of an animal when I don't know where it came from, and how it was treated prior to death.

I also think it's absurd to look at a video and call out "abuse" in outrage, when all you think when you look at your McDonald's hamburger is, "Mmm, tasty!"


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Yep cattle are vocal. This morning I was 10 minutes late for putting out cake and they were bellowing outside.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Ricci, I think that was me- I didn't say it won't make a difference- I said if a person wants to avoid supporting factory farming and slaughterhouse cruelty their only choices are to become a vegetarian or to raise their own meat. I chose to raise my own meat, milk, eggs, wool etc. =)


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

True Ricci, but it didn't take 3 matadors, 5 picadors and Merlin to make me that hamburger :/

We have cattle farms here too. Most are for meat.
The sacrifice moment takes at most err...3 to 5 minutes. Corridas take a bit longer.
However, regarding calling out abuse. I think it will work on the long term. I could give an example.

Remember how in the 80's movies smoking was so cool and trendy?
Everyone smoked in movies. In videoclips. In commercials. The Marlboro Man, smoking on his horse. MTV - lots of smoke everywhere.

After a while, we finally woke up. Smoking was banned in movies, commercials, etc etc, public places.

Now, it is perceived by a vast % (compared to the 80% generation) as an uncool and dangerous habit. Because we worked on it. Not everyone has quit smoking but at least not showing gorgeous top models puffing around in every musical clip helped a lot.

I do believe that people buy what they see and get their likes and dislikes based on society trend many times. 
I do believe that certain things can be slowly changed in time.
And I do believe dog fights, bull fights are some of those things.

Perhaps when I'll be a grandma my kid will say "how rude, how cruel" seeing an old corrida clip, just as some say "how nasty, how filthy " if they see someone smoking.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

inaclick said:


> True Ricci, but it didn't take 3 matadors, 5 picadors and Merlin to make me that hamburger :/


No, it only took several years of being locked into filthy pens and being kicked, punched, electrocuted, cracked with a shovel, hit with a 2x4, etc.

And I would really LOVE to see you dig up some proof on slicing vocal cords and putting caustic substances on the weaponry - REALLY. Cattle will CALL to each other - I have never, in all my years of rodeo, ever heard a steer or a bull make a noise when they are being ridden/roped/wrestled. Do they cut their vocal cords as well?

I have difficulty believing that "fear" is driving this bull. You couldn't do this to a beef cow, you couldn't do this to a horse, you couldn't even do this to a dog - they would run and try to desperately escape, not be "on the fight" from the get go.

Again, I find it ironic that I am in a sense defending this, but look inside your own backyard before you go sounding off on other cultures for their barbaric treatment of animals - we're not so far off the mark.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

My backyard is clean, Miko

The only issue with "cultural" animal handling that EU had with us was the traditional way of sacrificing pigs. Which is, if I am not mistaking, actually overlapping the "kosher" and "hallah" way - or however the muslims call it, sorry spelling approximate - 
More exactly the pig was killed by cutting it's neck main blood veins. Oh, the horrors, right?
Nowadays, the laws stipulate that it should be shot in the head by a trained guy. We do it like that since then.

...and that;s the only cultural skeleton we've got, really.

However, we're in the same big garden with Spain. And if cutting a pigs throat was a manifestation of cruelty, it appears chasing a bull all over the place and torturing it for hours is a wonderful manifestation of fine arts, talents and courage.

Why? Because our pigs don't have horns?
Because we don't wear red sparkly ***** pants when doing it?
Because we don't chase them around and just get the deal done?

Let's be serious, however you try turning it and to no matter how many backyards you send me, corrida is a manifestation of cruelty and the opposite of bravery.
I think a horseman in an ordinary ranch day of work shows more bravery than those inflated matadors.

As for the vocal chords - yeh I've been digging today for the email of the person who told me this, trying to get a hold of him and ask him to reply directly on this thread eventually. He's the one who told me, apparently from living in Toledo and seeing many of those events + backdoor stuff so he might as well come himself and explain wherefrom he got the info.

And getting back to the initial purpose of this thread, Merlin: yes, he's amazing. No, I'd rather get trained in knitting carpets with my toes than having anything to do with that..sorry, what was it?...art form.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

I'm sure the cow in your backyard is very understanding that he was only mistreated out of necessity and not sport.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

The way that a fighting bull is killed and the way a cow is killed for consumption are quite different. I think everyone knows this.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

roro said:


> The way that a fighting bull is killed and the way a cow is killed for consumption are quite different. I think everyone knows this.


So because a captive bolt is considered more humane (when it actually works, don't forget the percentage of animals that are left hanging alive) that negates the treatment of the animal up TO it's death? Chickens, pigs, beef cattle, dairy cattle, all victims of factory farming long before they're the victims of the slaughter floor.

The misery a factory farmed animal endures persist for a LOT longer then a bull fighting bull, and yet we're content to eat our meat and point out the cruelty and fallacy of others?

If you raise and personally shoot every animal that lands on your plate, you may have a right to point fingers. But so long as you support an industry that makes it's money off the suffering of animals, you're just a pot calling the kettle black.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

In my haste to post this morning, I forgot to answer the question. =P Yes, I would like to work with this trainer. Just not in the bull-fighting arena, I wouldn't, couldn't, even be there. But work with him on my mare? Heck yes! Choosing not to because he fights bulls would be like me choosing not to work with Clinton Anderson, Stacy Westfall, etc etc, because they eat meat. And that's just ridiculous. You don't have to like everything about a person to learn how to make an amazing horse with them.

I think one of the biggest problems with our culture is we like to point the finger at anyone and anything but ourselves. The Europeans eat horse meat; BAD! The Koreans eat dog; BAD! The spanish fight bulls; BAD! The Americans eat beef; BAD! The so-and-so eat pork; BAD! The French eat snails; GROSS! Etc, etc. Just because we pamper our horses and let the dogs sleep on the couch doesn't mean EVERY person in EVERY culture around the world should treat them the same way. Just like it doesn't mean that a person can't just have a horse to ride and work without being in love with it, and a person doesn't have to let their dog sleep on the couch to be a good owner. 

So, maybe the Spanish fight bulls for a few hours how ever many times a week. But when it comes time to kill a steer for it's meat, who does it better? The Spanish or the Americans?

And since so many people are pointing the finger at bull-fighting, and are disgusted by it, what are you going to do about it? 99% of you will just post these words on a forum, but never bother to try and make a difference. And doesn't that make you just as "guilty" as the person doing the atrocious action? If a man is walking past an alley and sees, quite clearly, a guy raping and murdering a girl. He saw his face, and his license plate number. But he just turns his head and walks away. Isn't he almost MORE responsible for the terrible act than the guy doing it? Isn't the man who walked away MORE responsible for the fate of the girl, and any girl afterwards?


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> So because a captive bolt is considered more humane (when it actually works, don't forget the percentage of animals that are left hanging alive) that negates the treatment of the animal up TO it's death? Chickens, pigs, beef cattle, dairy cattle, all victims of factory farming long before they're the victims of the slaughter floor.
> 
> The misery a factory farmed animal endures persist for a LOT longer then a bull fighting bull, and yet we're content to eat our meat and point out the cruelty and fallacy of others?
> 
> If you raise and personally shoot every animal that lands on your plate, you may have a right to point fingers. But so long as you support an industry that makes it's money off the suffering of animals, you're just a pot calling the kettle black.


Well, the difference here is, this is a thread about bull fighting. Not about the faults of factory farming. You cannot justify bull fighting with the fact that we have factory farming. If we dismissed faults of others just because we have our own, very little would be accomplished to stop them. It's a one at a time process, and frankly I'd bet money on the bull fighting industry shutting down way before the meat industries in America would.

So yes, I'm content to point out the fallacies of others because it is reasonable to do so. Just because I eat meat does not mean that I am not entitled to share my opinion on bull fighting. And if I'm not, that's unfortunate, because I'm doing it anyways


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

roro said:


> Well, the difference here is, this is a thread about bull fighting. Not about the faults of factory farming. You cannot justify bull fighting with the fact that we have factory farming. If we dismissed faults of others just because we have our own, very little would be accomplished to stop them. It's a one at a time process, and frankly I'd bet money on the bull fighting industry shutting down way before the meat industries in America would.
> 
> So yes, I'm content to point out the fallacies of others because it is reasonable to do so. Just because I eat meat does not mean that I am not entitled to share my opinion on bull fighting. And if I'm not, that's unfortunate, because I'm doing it anyways


You have a great point, but you lead by example. If we can't get our own sh*t together, what right do we have to try and get other's sh*t together? America is great about imposing our beliefs on others, but that doesn't make it ok.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

BTW, compared with the life-long suffering from feedlot/slaughter abuses, the luxe life of each bull killed is ended within about a 15 minute fight. Nice, *riccilOve,* that you can separate Pablo's horsemanship from its use in the corrida. Yet, I must draw the line at escargot! NO WAY ARE YOU GONNA TELL ME THAT SLAUGHTERING SNAILS IS OK!


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> You have a great point, but you lead by example. If we can't get our own sh*t together, what right do we have to try and get other's sh*t together? America is great about imposing our beliefs on others, but that doesn't make it ok.


This thread is about "Would you want to be this trainer's apprentice?" My answer was no and I explained why. I was not saying "LET'S AMBUSH SPPAAAIIINNN!!!!" People here are, for the most part, expressing their opinions of bull fighting. You cannot tell me that they are not allowed to do so specifically because they eat meat. It is often unrelated to their opinion of bull fighting. I would be perfectly happy to hear what people from a bull fighting country think of our faults as well. Discussion is good, no matter who's "side" it's on. And even if people are pushing for it to be stopped, why is that terrible? Let them try. If it's a good idea then it will be successful to some degree, if not the idea will be stopped. 

Animal cruelty is essentially universal, and I will point at it when I see it regardless of what country or culture it belongs to. I am not pointing at America's faults in this thread because that is not the topic at hand.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

roro said:


> This thread is about "Would you want to be this trainer's apprentice?" My answer was no and I explained why. I was not saying "LET'S AMBUSH SPPAAAIIINNN!!!!" People here are, for the most part, expressing their opinions of bull fighting. You cannot tell me that they are not allowed to do so specifically because they eat meat. It is often unrelated to their opinion of bull fighting. I would be perfectly happy to hear what people from a bull fighting country think of our faults as well. Discussion is good, no matter who's "side" it's on. And even if people are pushing for it to be stopped, why is that terrible? Let them try. If it's a good idea then it will be successful to some degree, if not the idea will be stopped.
> 
> Animal cruelty is essentially universal, and I will point at it when I see it regardless of what country or culture it belongs to. I am not pointing at America's faults in this thread because that is not the topic at hand.


Your response confuses me. 

I wasn't attacking you, just making a statement. You said you were happy to point out fallacies in others and making a change elsewhere, when there are just as many fallacies in your town. And you are right, we can't dismiss one bad thing because we also have one bad thing. 

But you seemed to take a lot from my post that I didn't actually say. Of course meat-eaters can express their opinion on bull-fighting. I have no idea where you saw me trying to say otherwise? And duh, meat-eating isn't related to bull-fighting. Again, not sure where you saw that. Nor did I say it's a terrible idea to try to stop bull-fighting, or at least change it to using paint instead of spears. I'd be more than willing to jump on the bandwagon.

My point is that it seems we're more willing to stop bull-fighting in a different country than we are to make [more important, IMO] changes within our own country and culture.

And on another note, you say you are happy to point out abuse whenever and wherever you see it. But their culture doesn't think it's abuse. It's only abuse to you. To them, it's a time-honored tradition of proving their manhood and battling the beast. To you, it's sadistic and twisted. It's a different culture, a different place. And I don't see why we feel we have the right to change THEIR culture, when we can't even help our own.

PS. Northern, you got quite the laugh from me! SAY NO TO SNAIL SLAUGHTER! SAY NO TO SNAIL SLAUGHTER! =D


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

roro - Thank you for taking the time to debate with me, it's thoroughly appreciated.  I don't respect anyone less for speaking their opinions and welcome it.

I think you're missing my point though. I don't like bull fighting. Nor am I fond of factory farming. By all means, you have EVERY right to speak your mind about bull fighting. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of calling a man sick and twisted when we promote and accept just as violent behavior in our own culture and country. And for sure, you didn't say any of that, so that wasn't directed at you. But that was essentially the premise of my argument - people who are so quick to judge the emotions and intentions of another human being without realizing they are themselves a part of said cruelty. And I, don't believe, anyone here is sick and twisted either.

A bull fights back which is why these matadors see it as a cultural pride thing. They would find no pleasure in torturing a screaming kitten in the corner, which is what I personally would define as sick and twisted - finding immense pleasure in the suffering of others. These matadors don't SEE the bull as suffering - they see him as a worthy foe, capable of holding his own and free to kill the human if he figures out the game and is quick enough on his feet.

I agree 100% it is cruel and I would never condone it - I am, in a sense, actually deviating away from the actual topic of bull fighting and instead questioning the human intention when situations like this occur. I just find it interesting to find out WHY - this man is no more sick and twisted then you and I, so there must be a reason for him to do what he's doing, and I enjoy discovering and debating the human sense of right and wrong.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I just find it interesting to find out WHY - this man is no more sick and twisted then you and I, so there must be a reason for him to do what he's doing, and I enjoy discovering and debating the human sense of right and wrong.


Hey, Miko

The reason is money and social acknowledgement.
If there were not huge money involved and if they were not local stars, you think they'd do that in their own backyard?
And about screaming kitty in a corner. If they'd be payed, who knows, really. There are people paying to see fighting chicken, for pete's sake. Also, the screaming kitty does not give the crowd the false feeling of power and majestic - oooh the big bull, look how superior we are - 

As for debating; You seem to take every opinion very personal, are you sure your cousin or something is not a matador, because you snapped quite aggressively at 3 of us already 

I enjoy debating as well and don't mind it, however , make a difference and draw a line between "I disagree" and "No, you!"
If you scroll back on the thread you'll notice that all who posted here and agreed or disagreed referred to:
a) the horse
b) the trainer
c) obviously the bullfighting

Your posts however referred to the forum posters mostly?!
Being rude and snappy does not equal being a good debater, kind of like a supporter of Manchester United cannot apply to the Opera just because he screams his lungs out at every match he goes.
I don't mind debating, by contrary, I think the forum is here to educate ourselves and even change opinions sometimes, mine or yours and argumentative opinions are valuable


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## Pony Tail (Jun 26, 2010)

Carleen said:


> I don't really like the thought of bullfighting, but you've got to commend the horse/rider team for their bravery.


the horse nor the bull have a choice in the matter. the horse has his head cranked in, held in position. at least in real dressage, they're not just tying the head in. 

also, I think that dressage is way better done without all the bloodshed and disgusting use and abuse of innocent animals.

how many horses got gored so that rider could get to be that "good?" 

sorry, but I just don't see what's so great about this video. It makes me cringe. I didn't bother seeing it all the way through.

call me a sap, but that's my take on it.:?

Macabre....interesting and well thought out post. I agree to some extent. It's a twisted world. But I personally can't say that just because the rider thinks he's doing a great thing that it is. Yes, there's animal cruelty going on in the food industry....but there's also people doing their best not to support that. Not everyone is a silent supporter of that. 

Then again....the ol saying....you can't save the world....the big machines (politicians and big business will do what they do because of greed and power...blah blah blah.....) but does that mean that we should simply watch bull fighting and say, hey, that's cool what they can do with the horse! 

I might not be able to stop the big business and all that goes with it....from torturing chickens and cows....but I can certainly turn my back on bull fighting and the use of purposefully putting an innocent horse in harms way for human entertainment.

Anyhow....I'm not arguing one side or the other. I'm just being me.


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## Pony Tail (Jun 26, 2010)

Excuse the soap box above. lol

I didn't answer the OP's question....

Do I want to be that trainer's apprentice? No.

Funny thing....I recently got the chance to study abroad in Spain with a trainer who trained horses for bull fights...seriously! He comes from a long line of matadors. And his wife trains using "natural horsemanship" methods....so, I thought, cool! But when I found out about the bull fighting, I said, no thanks.

So, nah. I think I'll pass on this one.


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## saberdanes (Jun 29, 2010)

nice horse!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Pony Tail, I can't help but wonder whether your studying with the Spaniard would have supported the fights financially; if not, & you had made your opinion known to them beforehand, what would have been the harm?


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

What an amazing horse. So beautiful too. I really enjoy watching how the horse keeps his feet moving up and down even while the bull is a ways away so that he can stay quick on his feet.

Then that bull gets closer and he begins side stepping left and right faking out the bull. 

And when it's practically running sideways. So amazing to watch.

And then reading that it was basically just high level dressage lower down on that page.

Amazing horse.


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## ilyTango (Mar 7, 2010)

That was...incredible. I literally sat there with my mouth hanging open. That was amazing.


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## RogueMare (Feb 17, 2010)

Personally, watching the video I was stunned at the movement of that horse. Enough so that at first I wasn't watching the bull. 

Then, I read the thread. 
Everyone is capable of pointing fingers, and for every one we point- there are at least ten pointing back at us. No, America is not perfect, but no one is. Bullfighting is not horrific, sticking the spears in the bulls back is. But anyone could compare the "horrors" of rodeos to the same thing. Minus sticking spears in the bulls back, aren't we doing the same thing? I'm not saying Bullfighting is ok, and I'm not against rodeos completely. But I do think there are some Aspects of each sport that are horrific. Break it down, there are goods and bads to every sport. You can google any number of things on bullfighting and learn quite a bit. The history I honestly think is very interesting. 

But to go on a rant about Americas food industry has nothing to do with bullfighting. Yes there are some slaughter houses that are horrible. But there are also some that aren't. (Human nature comes out when we have to deal with animals that can't speak out and tell everyone about how horrible, or great they're being treated. ) Think of the amount of meat that's eaten *DAILY *in the United states, and how many cattle that takes, now take into consideration how you want each and every individual cow treated. I think thats asking a little much. They're going to stand in pens with poo in them. They're cows for Christs sake. But the physical abuse they endure is not ok.(hitting, punching, kicking, stabbing etc..) So do something about it other than getting on your soap box on a forum. I personally am vegetarian if I can't get my city slicker hands on some farm raised and slaughtered cattle. What are you doing about it? 

Another thing that comes to mind, when everyone says "Well I'm just one voice. What I say doesn't matter anyways." It does, if every single person that took place in the Boston Tea Party said "Well, I'm just one person, and a single voice won't do anything." Do you think it would have happened? What if every single person that wanted to abolish slavery said "I'm just one person." Think on it. A rope is strong. but if you take it apart, to each individual string that makes up the rope, its weak.. I dunno, just a thought rant... 

On the OP's original reason for posting this thread. I would LOVE to apprentice this trainer. I think it would open my eyes not only to other training methods, but also to another culture and aspects outside of my own world. I may not agree with it, but I can still learn from it.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

As thread hostess , I want to say thanks to all contributors! I just had to share this footage of this awesome horse & rider, even though I expected the discussion to get around to the animal cruelty issues. (feel free to post more)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

As a note, I'm not ranting about the food industry, that wasn't my intention whatsoever. I was only drawing a comparison to point out to people who are so quick to judge another culture that maybe their own culture isn't as sunshine and rainbows as they seem to think.

As already mentioned, my debate rather removed itself from the actual spectacle of the video and bull fighting entirely and was focusing on the sense of human nature and morale right and wrong.

Northern - either way, thanks for posting the video, I've always rather liked it. And I don't know if I even answered your original question lol but I would definitely like to follow him around for awhile! I can very easily remove myself from the bull fighting part of it and focus on the training that goes into the horse.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I found your posts to be appropriate, MM; I know you weren't trying to hijack the thread.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> Your response confuses me.
> 
> I wasn't attacking you, just making a statement.


As was I.


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## ChloeButler09 (May 2, 2010)

the horses movement is totally amazing, but i couldnt stop looking at the poor bull, they should haev used that horses ability differently but that is just my view


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Have ya guys seen the "bloodless bullfighting"? They use a velcro patch on the bulls shoulder and the bandarills are velcro. I could go for that. The bull is not harmed, not killed, and goes back home to eat his oats.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

You mean sow his oats & eat his grass?  The bloodless fight is fairer to the bull, I think: the sticking weakens his neck muscles, hurts horribly, & weakens him due to loss of blood.


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## RogueMare (Feb 17, 2010)

Northern said:


> You mean sow his oats & eat his grass?



This made me Rolflmao


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

On another thread Northern asked me to view the video.
I do not believe in the sport, however, the video is so much more than that. What follows is from the other thread:

Northern;
Competitive dressage riders should learn the true foundation of dressage, battle movements. From there the other competitive manuevers would excel. The dressage schooling that these horses go through is far superior than the competitive dressage horse today.

Tetanic contractions can only be varifed through palpation, observations are predicated upon use of the joints, fluidity, stride length and suppleness.
Because of the extension of the hindlegs, I believe this horse probably may have minor tetanic contractions in the upper hindquarter, but not in the extender muscles and he definitly has minor tetanic contractions in the lumbar region.
I do believe that his topline in the neck and his shoulders do have major tetanic contractions. This is because the forelegs are not extending at any time, the shoulders are tense and the neck is very rigid....no suppleness or fluidity in the neck at all.
This is a direct and proximate result of the pressure upon the bit which is causing the tetanic contractions of the neck. 

Does this help? 
__________________


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