# You just want to shoot some people-poor mare



## JennKzoo (Sep 23, 2010)

3 in 1 package deal (thats how its listed on Craigslist).
















$3,500 
Chic Olena Holly
Dewitt, Michigan 48820 Breed: Quarter Horse Sex: Mare Color: Sorrel Birth Date: Apr 1, 2002 Height: 14.0 hh Weight: 0.0 lbs Registry: AQHA Reg. #: ask  In Foal: No *Temperament:*








3 / 10 



_ More Information at: zoomshare.com _ 
*Additional Comments:*
Holly has a great foundation in reining and is a really nice mare. She rides around real nice, and shows alot of talent. She has been exposed to a cremello own son of Nu Chex to Cash for a 2010 foal. Will be vet checked on 10/5 to see if she is in foal, comes with a free breeding to same stud for 2011


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Is your problem that she is already bred? Looks like a nice mare and foal.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

ya.... im not seeing the problem???? the mare looks nice and so does the foal.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Yes, please explain...


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## horseluver250 (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm not getting it either. Why poor mare? She looks well cared for.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

She looks very well cared for.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I think the idea of the mare having a foal at side and being bred again is the big idea. 

I think.

But, that's a normal thing. Lots of breeders do it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I think they are pointing out that not only has she been re-bred for 2010, but they are offering a 2011 breeding in the price too, so the mare will have had 3 foals in as many years. Again, common practice by some breeders, but it can be tough on the mare.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

You don't see many mares that look like that with a baby on their side. She looks really well cared for in my opinion.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Like the others have mentioned, it is a common practice. If she looked horrible and ill kept, then I would take issue. But not with this particular mare.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Hey don't get me wrong, I don't see anything to worry about either. I was just playing Devil's advocate and pointing out what some people might not like about the situation. I personally wouldn't breed a mare every year, but I don't think that it is wrong, I just wouldn't do it. Just like I wouldn't like to have a baby every year myself (although if there was a market for my bloodlines maybe I would consider it rofl)


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

But then you'd have the last name as 'Duggar' right?!?!!!!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

OMG I feel so sorry for that woman! Being pregnant is so tough on your body, why would you do that to yourself! Just buy a TV woman!


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## JennKzoo (Sep 23, 2010)

Sorry guys I posted this and was going to say something and I had kind of an emergency at home.. 
The mare definately looks great, but with all the unwanted horses out there, is this really necessary to have a foal by her side, already rebred and offer a breeding for next year? I just don't see the need to breed that fast and so often no matter how well a horse is.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Yes that is a concern. I dont see any problem with re-breeding a mare even several years in a row as long as she's healthly & takes to it well. Animals tend not to complain as much as people ****, but it's true they're just making even _more _horses.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

It all depends on what area you are in though. Some places the horse market is doing just fine. Others, not so much.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Sometimes it seems like the folks on the internet are the breeding police. If they have a nice mare and want to breed her, so be it. When they stop making money on horses I guess they will stop breeding them. But I don't see this as a low-end mare. People breed a lot worse. :-|


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Not only are her foals marketable, she is also. Shes got a good conformation on her. Its not like she is popping out craptastic grade horses. This is a well bred QH broodmare who looks to be bred back to a decently bred QH stud. I don't agree with the over breeding but if her babies are doing well....


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Well, the only indication is that a mare, a foal and a second foal are likely "lower-end" if the price is only $3500. It's probably a pretty good indication she's not being bred by any sort of true responsible breeders, and her foals will likely end up in the kills pens anyway.

It's hard to judge with that ad, but I see what the OP is getting at - we really DON'T need anyone breeding the crap out of a mediocre at best mare. The fact that she's being bred to a cremello kind of alerts me to the "Krazy Kolor Breeder" factor as well.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok, I don't claim to know tons about AQHA but when I looked into this mare a little further, she does have a few good names on her papers. Heres more info from the website. *(MM is correct...they are Krazy Kolor Breeders...but have decent stock)*


Sired by Hickory Chic Olena. Hickory Chic Olena is sired by Smart Chic Olena, who has sired offspring earning over $7 Million in reining, cutting, and working cowhorse events. His dam, SR Hickory Lynn, has produced 10 Foals of which 8 were performers including: Hickory Chic Olena, Hold That Cow, Smart Chicory, and Olena Covergirl. Her offspring earnings exceed $90,000. His 2nd maternal dam, Oaklynn, is the dam of 12 foals of which 9 were performers -- including SR Hickory Lynn, Paid By Chic, A Lasting Affair, Just Chicynn, Just Like Chicynn and Party Chics. Hickory Chic Olena began his dynamic career in 1994 with a top 10 placing in the NRHA Limited Open Futurity. In January of 2005 he retired at the age of 14 with 176.5 AQHA Performance points and more than $45,300 to his credit after earning numerous championships, reserves and top 10 finishes in Open, Non Pro and Amateur divisions. He was already making his mark as a sire before his retirement from the show pen. His highest money earner, Diamonds For Chic, has lifetime earnings in excess of $52,900. This 2000 mare rocketed into the spotlight after carrying Wendy Latimer to the 2005 National Reining Breeders Classic Non Pro and Intermediate Non Pro Championships. As of August 1, 2006, Hickory Chic Olena is the sire of earners of over $160,000 (NRHA - $139,600+). Hickory was known in the arena for his electrifying moves and tremendous heart. He is exceptionally good-minded, intelligent, determined and charismatic. As a performer, he was precise, honest and dependable, even as a "Super Senior" at age 14. His foals inherit so many of his qualities including trainability, talent, consistency and 'sweetheart' dispositions.
Smart Little Lena Smart Chic Olena Gay Sugar ChicHickory Chic Olena Doc's Hickory SR Hickory Lynn Oaklynn Doc Tari Taris Catalyst Minnick's Goldie Hollybelena Doc Tari Golden Holly Day Holly B Gold
Her dam is an own daughter of Taris Catalyst AQHA World Champion Junior Cutting Horse-NCHA Open Futurity Co-Reserve Champion. Earning $336,219 in cutting and sire awards, Taris Catalyst was the 1982 NCHA Open Futurity Co-Reserve Champion, 1983 gold and silver open stakes champion, 1982 Texas Bred Open Futurity Champion, 1984 Govoners Open Classic Champion, third in the 1983 NCHA Open Derby, 1983 Tropicana Spectacular 4 year old Open Futurity Co-Reserve Champion. He is an NRHA top ten all time leading sire and Equistat all time leading cutting sire.








Holly is 8 years old, and has a great foundation in reining and is a really nice mare. She rides around real nice, and shows allot of talent. She is very stylish, is a low headed stopper, steps around cute and clean in her turn arounds. She is a real nice minded mare and is very natural leaded. She is a good mover, goes around low headed, is soft and supple. Below is a picture of her 2006 Filly by a performing son of Shining Spark. Exposed to Corona White Chex for a 2011 foal. Priced at $3,500


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## JennKzoo (Sep 23, 2010)

I did not realize that on the ad I copied there is a link to click and it goes directly to the breeders web site. 
I am in Michigan and the market here is so full of unwanted babies and horses and people complaining about breeding qualities of true QHs and ending up with a lame horse in 3-5 years.


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## JennKzoo (Sep 23, 2010)

I wanted to add, its not about the quality of the horses here. Looks like some awesome background. For me personally, its just the fact that I feel some breeders need to slow down a little and not keep overpopulating the horse industry. I am on an Arab site and just seen this beautiful mare sent that was sent to auction, oh my this mare could move. They pulled her out of the kill pen from donations the day before her closed date, luckily she was adopted by someone wanting to get back to showing. I guess I am having one of those days and wish people would slow down with the breeding so there are not so many unwanted ones out there.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It annoys me when people are breeding bloodlines alone. Most horses have a recent famous ancestor, and it drives me nuts when I see things like "own son of". Even worse is seeing "sired by own son of". All this tells me is you have a stallion that's so unimportant you need to use his SIRE'S name to gain attention. What about the dam? There are a LOT of fugly horses that are siblings by stud to champions and nobody looks at the MARE.

In this day and age, using a mare strictly as an every year broodmare should be something reserved for people producing foals that are worth thousands upon hitting the ground. I would almost see an irresponsible backyard breeder breed for ONE "kyoot" foal because at least they do have every intention of keeping it - not breeding the heck out of a mare just to sell mediocre foals.

Shay-la just purchased a registered Appaloosa colt who's sire is a local halter champion and who's dam never showed but her sire is known for producing champions. That's great, but it doesn't make her foal worth much - he's just not well bred enough to gain attention for being born. The problem comes in with WHAT was being bred - sure, his grand sire sired champions, but he sired champions who were NOT out of the mare Shay-las colt calls grand dam - his grand dam was a completely unrecognized nothing of a mare and the resulting offspring meant a nicely conformed horse but yet another one that did absolutely nothing.

It takes TWO parents to make a foal worth something when he hits the ground - having a champion sire means diddly squat if the mare is straight off a Mustang range. Nobody is going to buy these colts because of some bloodlines when the immediate parents haven't done much of anything but stand around and breed.

Just my two cents!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Nobody is going to buy these colts because of some bloodlines when the immediate parents haven't done much of anything but stand around and breed.


I don't even consider bloodlines when I buy a horse. I want temperment and training. I wouldn't care if the parents were famous or never known for anything other than standing around and breeding as long as the offspring were sound, trainable and had good dispositions. Bloodlines don't impress me much, as long as the horse is good and usable. 

There are all sorts of horse buyers out there. Some of us don't care if the horse is a grade or papered up the wazoo. Papers just don't make the horse to me. Other people can ride the papers, I want a good HORSE. :lol:


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I don't think everyone goes ga-ga over bloodlines. Most people are just looking for decent riding horses. Maybe some for lower level open showing.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

JennKzoo said:


> I did not realize that on the ad I copied there is a link to click and it goes directly to the breeders web site.
> I am in Michigan and the market here is so full of unwanted babies and horses and people complaining about breeding qualities of true QHs and ending up with a lame horse in 3-5 years.


I agree with you there. I want a horse that is sound into it's early twenties at least. I don't like the build of some of the modern Quarter Horses. They just don't have the frame to carry their own weight.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Well, the only indication is that a mare, a foal and a second foal are likely "lower-end" if the price is only $3500. It's probably a pretty good indication she's not being bred by any sort of true responsible breeders, and her foals will likely end up in the kills pens anyway.


Well, thank God for lower end horses then, or I wouldn't be able to afford one. I have never paid even close to that amount for a good horse. So to me, that's a goodly sum of cash. Especially since folks are selling horses around here for a lot less than that. So to me, that's a respectable amount. Most foals around here are lucky to bring a few hundred dollars, so that still prices the mare at almost $3000. I really don't think that's a kill pen horse. Could they end up there, sure, but that's not a cheap grade horse in my book. 

I guess it's good there are a few folks like me who will pick up the low end horses and actually ride and enjoy them and not care about whether or not it has famous relatives that won a prize somewhere.

Now if I were breeding, I would be more selective. But as a non-breeder I just want soundness, temperment and training in my horses.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I've never paid over 3000 for a horse. I thought that was high end! At least for me it was. I don't think money adequately reflects horses often though. You can get a cheapy horse that is a complete winner and you can pay thousands of dollars for a horse that's about as smart as a corn flake.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Solon said:


> I've never paid over 3000 for a horse. I thought that was high end! At least for me it was. I don't think money adequately reflects horses often though. You can get a cheapy horse that is a complete winner and you can pay thousands of dollars for a horse that's about as smart as a corn flake.


I totally agree! I paid $2000 for a trained BLM Mustang, and I would gladly pay that again, or more, to get such an awesome horse. He's the best horse I've ever ridden. And then I hear horror stories of people paying alot more than that and getting a dangerous horse they can't ride or use in any way. 

My latest horse was $500 and is a real sweetheart. She isn't as perfectly trained as the Mustang, but she is safe and fun to ride. Heck, it's a wonder she found time to be saddle broke at all, as I called the registry and she had 7 registered foals, plus the 3 grades the last owner bred (which includes the one she was carrying when I bought her). So considering she spent most of her adult life pregnant, she is a great riding horse. I love her very much. I guess by all accounts she should have ended up in a kill pen somewhere, but I am so glad I found her. 

So I guess our opinions are colored by our life experiences.

So yeah, if I paid $3500 for a mare/two foals, that is a bit upper crust for me. :lol: Not that they aren't worth it, they would probably be worth a lot more than that if the market were strong, but as it stands, I don't consider them cheap horses.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Wow if $3000 is a cheap horse.... 

Well I could get this girl for $2500 and probably a few more like her for cheaper...

Quarter Horse For Sale










The way the economy is (at least around here) horses don't go for half the cash they used to.


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## ilovesonya (Oct 12, 2009)

Jeez, around here, that mare would be double her price. 
There are hunter-jumper ponies around here going for 15-25 000, and that is just provincial level!
But then on the lower end, you can go pick up an OTTB for 10 bucks at the auction..
Guess it all depends on quality, ability, and all that..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, the most I've ever paid for a horse of my own was $150. Most I paid for a horse ever was $1200 (Dad's horse Pokey). I can't imagine forking out $12-15000 for a horse.

That being said, I actually really like that mare. Her conformation appears to be nice and solid and papers with good lines on them certainly don't hurt re-sale value. The stud is mediocre at best but it is possible that she will throw a good foal. What I don't get is advertising a stud that is in pasture form. Get him up, get him fitted and groomed up. Get his coat shiny and his muscles bulging and he would look so much better. He would still be mediocre but at least he would look like he belonged to an owner who gave a ****.

However, around here, for a mare with those bloodlines and 2 possible foals, $3500 isn't a bad price.


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## ilovesonya (Oct 12, 2009)

I agree, I won't pay that much for a horse, unless I win the jackpot . 

I only payed $ 300 for Sonya, and she was a yearling.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Right, the point was that the $3500 is not for the MARE - it's for potentially 4 horses (mare, foal at side, foal in belly and next year's foal). So why not just sell the MARE instead of breeding her repeatedly to a nobody of a stallion? It's not the mare that's the problem, it's the constant breeding and the $3500 covering four horses, not one.

I have nothing against low end horses,, but there's almost no market for these foals as all of you have only confirmed - you pay for temperment and training, so even bloodlines don't matter on these colts. It's 3 colts that aren't good enough for people to want to wait 2-3 years of feeding them before they can do anything with.

The mare is great - but you don't need to breed her 14 times before you sell her just to get an extra $1500 out of the deal.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree with that. Although I do see it happen a lot.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

I notice that the ad says she was exposed FOR a 2010 foal but was being checked in Oct to see if she is in foal? Is this a mistake? Did they mean exposed in 2010 for a 2011 foal? It also says she comes with a breeding for 2011. So that would be the mare, and potentially 2011 and 2012 foals. The ad does not mention anywhere that she has actually had a 2010 foal, does it? it certainly does not give any details about a 2010 foal (colt, filly, month foaled, etc.) and in fact the photo of the mare with foal might possibly not even be her current foal.... Just wondering......confusing......


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

This is not specifically about this horse, but just in general. The answer to overpopulation is not slowing down production of well conformed, useful horses it cracking down on breeding of horses that are unmarketable. Sure, it's very nice to think about slowing down breeding will help the problem, but the truth is, most horses that are unwanted are unwanted for a reason. People who want to buy a high performance will continue to spend money and responsible breeders will continued to be rewarded for their outstanding breeding programs.

This mare is not terribly conformed and she's trained (which is absolutely great!), though if she is only being sold for 3000 (as a 3 in one package) then clearly there is a problem! Yes, there is definitely a market for these kinds of horses, but if you need to sell your breeding quality, pregnant mare that has a foal by her side and a breeding for next year for that little, that's when you need to reevaluate.

And I must say, I'm not a huge fan of that stallion... he seems to have color, a nice sire, and that's about it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JennKzoo said:


> Sorry guys I posted this and was going to say something and I had kind of an emergency at home..
> The mare definately looks great, but with all the unwanted horses out there, is this really necessary to have a foal by her side, already rebred and offer a breeding for next year? I just don't see the need to breed that fast and so often no matter how well a horse is.


Not sure that is a problem. That is a nice well bred mare who has been trained under saddle. She is being bred to a nice well bred stallion. Those foals sell very well. They are not your $500 foals. At that price if I was in the market I would go up and take a look. 

I have no problems selling my foals for 10 times what they are asking for that mare. Those foals will more then pay for the price of the mare. Like I said if I was in the market I would grab her up. Foal her out breed her back and put her back under saddle then leave her open and put some money on her. Then put her back into my broodmare band. Good breeders with well bred horses are the ones who need to keep breeding. The ones breeding mares who have not proven them selves who have poor breeding and/or conformation are the ones who need to stop breeding.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> I totally agree! I paid $2000 for a trained BLM Mustang, and I would gladly pay that again, or more, to get such an awesome horse.* He's the best horse I've ever ridden.* And then I hear horror stories of people paying alot more than that and getting a dangerous horse they can't ride or use in any way.
> 
> My latest horse was $500 and is a real sweetheart. She isn't as perfectly trained as the Mustang, but she is safe and fun to ride. Heck, it's a wonder she found time to be saddle broke at all, as I called the registry and she had 7 registered foals, plus the 3 grades the last owner bred (which includes the one she was carrying when I bought her). So considering she spent most of her adult life pregnant, she is a great riding horse. I love her very much. I guess by all accounts she should have ended up in a kill pen somewhere, but I am so glad I found her.
> 
> ...


This is the problem I see a lot. People say this all the time. This is the best horse I HAVE EVER ridden. TO me that can mean that you may not have ever ridden a well bred well trained horse. I have had several people tell me that same thing and I tell them come to my house and take a spin. I have had a few take me up on that. Needless to say that line could not be used about their horses again. They realize what a well bred well trained horse is like.

I am not saying that you horse is not well trained. It could very well be. What I am saying is that most people have never ridden a truly well trained horse.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Im sorry but this is a very nice mare that is in very good condition. Why is it that people have a problem breeding a well pedigreed mare to a well bred stallion. It is that persons business wether she wants to breed her mare once or every year. I believe that is a very marketable colt and I am suprised for the price she hasn't sold. The stallion is an own son of Nu Chex to Cash whose son, Wimpys Little Step is leading the NRHA producer list for 2010. So what is the problem with the stallions pedigree? His dam is a performer and a producer....isn't that what we want in our horses? Breeding the best genetics to the best genetics! And she is guaranteed to have a palomino colt, who said that isn't marketable? With all that, what is the problem? Yes there are a lot of horses out there and its not getting better but when it costs more to geld a stallion than you will get at the local dump auction house, people wont pay for it, then you get junk breeding junk and sons breeding mothers, I have seen it. So lets leave the people that are making responsible breeding decisions alone and go after the ones that shouldn't own a pet mouse!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

4theloveofhorses said:


> Im sorry but this is a very nice mare that is in very good condition. Why is it that people have a problem breeding a well pedigreed mare to a well bred stallion. It is that persons business wether she wants to breed her mare once or every year. I believe that is a very marketable colt and I am suprised for the price she hasn't sold. The stallion is an own son of Nu Chex to Cash whose son, Wimpys Little Step is leading the NRHA producer list for 2010. So what is the problem with the stallions pedigree? His dam is a performer and a producer....isn't that what we want in our horses? Breeding the best genetics to the best genetics! And she is guaranteed to have a palomino colt, who said that isn't marketable? With all that, what is the problem? Yes there are a lot of horses out there and its not getting better but when it costs more to geld a stallion than you will get at the local dump auction house, people wont pay for it, then you get junk breeding junk and sons breeding mothers, I have seen it. So lets leave the people that are making responsible breeding decisions alone and go after the ones that shouldn't own a pet mouse!


Aside from this topic already being 6 months old, you answered your own question with "I'm surprised she's still for sale at that price."

I'm not. These foals are a dime a dozen. Obviously it's NOT marketable if selling is such a problem. Selling FOUR horses for $3500 does not even begin to describe marketable in this day and age.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

"These foals are a dime a dozen."
ACTUALLY the mare is rebred after having a year off, she is selling with a potential rebreed if someone is so inclined...so it is a possible 3-1 but for now it is just a mare and colt. She is listed on reinersworld and she upped her price to 4500.00...the reason I came across this is because I was looking for colts by a Nu Chex son, I cant afford the 20,000.-500,000. for a son of Nu Chex, so if you think that is not a marketable mare and colt maybe you should do some more research. So far I havent even been able to find yearlings out of a son for less than 3,000.00 with color. So if you could direct me to where there are some out of well bred mares, such as this, then I would be glad to look them up. Until then I think you need to do a little more research on the subject...and yes I am a few months late on this thread...obviously you are still following it. 
And she sold the colt in the picture at weaning, which she used that particular picture to show what a nice colt she had the previous year. Also before you repost maybe you should have gotten more info directly from the owner, which I have. She lost both her parents in an auto accident, found out she was pregnant and her father in law was diagnosed with agressive brain cancer, she priced her low trying to get a quick sale! The mare is not a "DIME A DOZEN" mare as you have stated.

If you truly are interested in non-marketable horses join the Camelot Crusade on facebook....search for "Camelot" they buy horses out of the slaughter pens and try to resale them on facebook...they have good luck and save a couple horses from the slaughter trucks. Those are the breeders you should be following, I believe there was a mare and daughter on there and the mare was possibly rebred by her son...at least I know these are not inberd.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Well lets just say that the foal I sold a couple years ago who was by a son of Nu Chex to Cash was sold for a $25K profit.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

That, my dear, is AWESOME! Glad to see some people have their eyes on the stars! A little out of my pocketbook range though. I am looking in the 3000.00 to 12,000. range. I love the Nu Chex lines, they make really good non-pro and amateur horses. QHD just posted online that Wimpys Little Step so far is at the top of the list for money earners in 2011.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I will have a Roosters Wrangler and a Hollywood vintage foal for sale next year. This years for is already sold too. 

Nu Chex to Cash is a nice line as long as you have a strong mare.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

I have an own daughter of Continental Jose by Continental King with Poco Bueno still on the papers. She is a very nice shapy mare, about 14.2 with a very pretty head. How do you like the Hollywood Vintage horses? I like the Hollywood Jac line.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I like Hollywood Vintage. Very great mare like. I am a big fan of the Dun It line. One of my mares is by Hollywood Dun it. The mare who I am breeding to HV is by Zan Freckles Hickory out of a -g-daughter of Poco Bueno who is out of a g-daughter of King. Should be a very very nice foal.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

That will be a great foal! Sounds like you have a very nice breeding program.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

I am new to this forum and found it because I was looking at the Holly mare online and the stud she is bred to. Was googling the names and came across this thread. I love the posts about finding well broke sane horses for 300.00 and to think I paid 15g for my reiner...ha guess i over paid!...NOT!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Reiners are not cheap.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Nope they are not, but worth the price! I saved for 3 years to buy mine and I think I got a pretty good deal. Now I am looking at yearling prospects and stallions. I have a dun High Brow Hickory mare I am saving to breed to Spooks Gotta Gun for 2012. And the Continental mare I am going to breed to a son of Nu Chex.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I fail to understand entirely the line of thinking that "all Nu Chex sons = awesome foals". That's complete fallacy. One Nu Chex son may be worth millions, and the next could be destined for the kill pens based on the weakness of the mare. It happens constantly.

Nothing annoys me more then seeing ads selling horses as "half brother of champion so and so!" like somehow that will make THEIR horse a champion even though he's 8 years old and obviously done nothing.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Didn't that ad say that she was bred to her own son?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> Didn't that ad say that she was bred to her own son?


No, it said "own son of Nu Chex" which is like a fancy way of saying "our stud has done absolutely NOTHING for himself, so his only claim to fame is a good sire." A quick glance at their webpage shows a decent stud who's done absolutely nothing but sire color.

Basically they have an entire website of horses who seem to have decent lines, but haven't done a **** thing themselves but breed which is what I have an issue with. We have PLENTY of stock running around from "claim to fame" parents. I fail to see how these colts are worth much more then auction colts being from a $500 stud fee sire who's done NOTHING but breed, and a mare with the same.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Didn't that ad say that she was bred to her own son?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! It stated that a kill horse was bred to her own son from a completly differnet line of thinking....the mare in question is bred to a cremello son of Nu Chex to Cash and she is by Hickory Chic Olena.

So what do you think? Shall we just breed un proven horses...I really cant follow your thought process on this. Either we breed for top blood lines out of stock that has conformation, temperament, and athletic ability or we breed to nothing horses and hope for the best? Or are you one of those people that believe we shouldn't breed at all? Your statements lead me too believe you don't want any horses bred. This horse is marketable with a marketable colt. She is broke to be a reiner and could be put back into training after the foal is weaned. She doesn't have to be rebred. But guess what? If someone buys her as a broodmare and chooses to breed her and rebreed her that is their choice. She has the pedigree to do that, I am certainly under the impression you are not familiar with the bloodlines or the price of reining horses in general.

As far as the Nu Chex bloodlines go... He is the top producer of novice and amateur horses, so being an amateur rider I am going to place my bet with the numbers. He is proven in the breeding shed and the arena. Because of your statements and the argumentative reasoning behind them, I am led to believe you know nothing on this subject. Accept you believe that mares shouldn't be bred. Thats all thats really coming across from you.

IF you follow the auctions and visit kill pens often, when you come across a NU Chex colt there please call me immediatly and I will come rescue it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Oh good grief, fine, continue interpreting my posts however you see fit. I have a friend who has a stallion with solid bloodlines, he's a local champion who's racked up an enormous amount of trophies. Her mares have never done anything but be produced by good bloodlines. Guess what her foals are selling for?

Welcome to the economy. Good bloodlines do NOT make a horse. The minute you are getting second and third generation of stock that's done absolutely NOTHING to prove itself in the breeding shed, you are getting kill pen colts. Not only has the sire and dam done nothing, there seems to be absolutely no information on whether they've ever sired/produced anything that's done anything.

Practically ANY backyard bred horse can claim a famous ancestor. Most horses are chock full of them - especially in stock horses. There's no end to the fantastic lines - so where exactly is the purpose in producing a bunch of colts from totally unproven parents when you can breed to Nu Chex sons with PROVEN results?

I am not against breeding whatsoever. That stud may be worth something and that mare may be worth something, but in THIS economy, those colts ain't worth a whole heckuva lot and are the EXACT same colts we constantly see ended up at auctions.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

In reality the mare is worth the price they are asking regardless of the foal at her side or bred back.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> In reality the mare is worth the price they are asking regardless of the foal at her side or bred back.


Yes, I'd agree with you there. I think that's the issue - they're breeding as much as they can get off their stud in an effort to promote him instead of bothering to actually DO some work and make a name for him which you know he's capable of. In this day and age, it's just so much riskier on the colt with technically good bloodlines but nothing proven on momma and poppa then going after that Nu Chex grandson who's coming from proven parents.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

While this is not something I personally would do. The fact is that there are people out there that will buy this colt and pay about what they are asking for the mare. When it comes down to it if you are going to take a risk and put money into training a 2yo I would would take this colt over most found at auction or even those who can only command $500.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe the post where I stated the owners hardships were missed. The reason he was not shown was because she could not justify sending him to a trainer while her family was suffering. Three Bars was an unproven horse at the track but proved to be a prolific sire of performance horses. There are many different reasons for not having a performance record. For MY PURPOSES, this is the best I can afford. If I could afford a 50,000.00 open horse that is what I would have. I am glad there are mid-level breeders where I can get similar bloodlines to champions and not have to pay 20,000.00 and up for a "prospect" I am not looking for a stallion, I am looking for a couple colts that will make nice amateur horses, and as I stated before the Nu Chex LINES produce very good amateur and novice horses and THAT has been proven! I paid for a nice horse to learn on and now I am ready to "move up" with a 2-3 year old. And if I can raise one out of a nice mare then so be it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Personally if I was in the market looking at this mare. I would take her as a 3-1 package. I would geld the colt and sell him. Could probable get between $3K-$4500. Have not see him but just on lines that would be about right. I would take that money leg the mare back up over the next few weeks and then take that money send her to my trainer let him finish her off and show her over the summer and put a few thousand on her. Bring her home foal her out. Sell that colt and use that money to pay a stud fee for a well proven sire and that one would be my next prospect. In the end you have a proven mare with very very little out of pocket cost.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

If that's the case, why has nobody bought her?

I respect your opinions greatly nrhareiner, but I am not seeing whatsoever where you're getting $4500 for a completely unproven unbroke colt. I understand good bloodlines, but there are TONS of horses with good second and third generation bloodlines going for peanuts. 

If that colt was worth so much, why aren't they selling him alone instead of trying to hawk him off with the mare, along with another breeding?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I can think of several reasons why this mare has not sold. One is that the owner is not marketing her correctly. That plays a big big role in selling a reining horse. Craigs list is not a good place. Then it looks like they put her on Reinings World. That is a good place but not the best.

Then her age. She is a 9yo. Maybe she is not as well trained as they say? I will say the pictures they are using are BAD. That plays a big role when people are looking at reining horses. Reiners expect a certain look when we go looking. If you do not at the very least clean the horse up for the picture....

Some people looking for a show horse are not going to look at her b/c you do not know how well broke she is, how much time it will take to finish her. Some times people looking do not have a good trainer to finish one off quickly and show it at first. Could be as simple as location. I can keep going on and on. I have an out let to sell prospects so I would not have a lot of trouble selling that colt. Others might not look at it that way. Why are they selling him with his dam? I can not say. I would. 

Again you are looking at the price as the price for the colt. That is a bonus. I am looking at it as is that a good price for that mare. It really is. I will say that from the pictures that if you where not verse in the pedigree you might run the other way. Those are some pad pictures. I would want some more pictures and some video of the mare and even the colt and would get more info and such before I would rule her out or in.


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

She is selling the mare "in foal" the colt from the original picture is already sold and is a coming 2 year old now. I agree that they could have better pictures and I have contacted her about this mare. She is willing to foal the mare out and sell the colt seperatly. I have a friend that wants the mare but not the colt. I would like to have the colt....so it may work out and I have no problem paying 4500.00 for the mare bred and the breed back is a bonus in my book.

What gets me about the whole deal is not a single person contacted her and inquired about the mare but instead chose to pass judgement on her based on a Craigslist ad. She has had a lot to deal with the last couple of years and has no intentions of breeding any more mares but if she did, it is not a complete strangers place to pass judgement. I like the bloodlines, I like the mare and I have inquired about purchasing the stallion also. He is very nice and conformationally correct. I have the ability to break him out and then send him to a trainer to finish him. The NRBC now has aged event classes for older horses. The FEI does not allow any horse under the age of 6 to be shown and I could show him in AQHA events to accumulate points, so it just takes a little effort but I think this horse with his bloodlines and color is very much worth the effort! In the pictures he is very structurally sound and from what the lady has said about him has a great temperament. SSOOO....I will end up with a nice gelding/filly prospect and possibly a nice stallion prospect and most important, I have made a new friend because I chose to inquire instead of passing judgement!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

A lot of what you can get for a particular horse also depends on who you know and who knows you. For me, I would be unable to sell any foal for $10000+ regardless of bloodlines because I don't know anyone with that kind of money. At the same time, most folks who buy horses for that price aren't really interested in buying from an unknown (me).


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

I think bloodlines play a pretty good roll in horses. My baby goes to a well known barrel sire on her sire's side, he raced, he sucked. But his babies did good in other events. But that's mainly the horse ppl comment on when I tell them how she's bred. Her sire never did anything. Now her dam won money on the track, but she's a no name that goes back to a good barrel sire who won a lot of money racing. And another race horse who won a lot more money racing, that only the racing ppl have heard of. So her sire who did nothing made her worth more than her dam who did good at something. I'm not saying its all about bloodlines, but that's what people who are into showing want. A good bred registered horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

That's the point though BarrelRacer, he SIRED good foals. So he did do something. Nu Chex may be great bloodlines, but this cremello stud has not only done nothing himself but has sired nothing of merit. So as of this point, he's another dime a dozen sire with good bloodlines.

The mare is impressive for bloodlines, I just personally find in this day and age that we have TONS of "good bloodlines" on horses sitting around doing nothing. And we have tons of good bloodlines on horses who've proven themselves, so who are you going to choose?

It's great to provide horses that aren't 20K, I just personally feel this mating is NOT producing marketable foals. Take that mare and breed her to a proven sire, and we may be talking different. But otherwise, these are the same colts ending up at auction - good on paper, with nothing to back it up. It's ENTIRELY possibly for a sire/dam to have a dud, which is why you want to see the sire proven in SOMETHING.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

I just wanted to throw this out there...

When I look at horses to potentially purchase, the asking price does make a difference...

For example, if I was looking for a "nice" horse with good bloodlines, etc etc, and most of these horses were in the $15K price range, if I saw an ad for one that was drastically lower, say for $3K...I would be very, very cautious about that deal.

You just really have to be careful about scams, etc. A lot of people looking at more "pricey" horses wont even touch the lower priced ads. They could potentially miss a good deal if they didnt even entertain the idea of looking.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is why when I am looking I do not put in a price range. I put in what I am looking for and see what pops.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Very good plan nrha...I am just saying a lot of people dont do that


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

JennKzoo said:


> I wanted to add, its not about the quality of the horses here. Looks like some awesome background. For me personally, its just the fact that I feel some breeders need to slow down a little and not keep overpopulating the horse industry. I am on an Arab site and just seen this beautiful mare sent that was sent to auction, oh my this mare could move. They pulled her out of the kill pen from donations the day before her closed date, luckily she was adopted by someone wanting to get back to showing. I guess I am having one of those days and wish people would slow down with the breeding so there are not so many unwanted ones out there.



I suppose the same could be said about people having babies considering the number of children out there in need of loving parents. I'm just sayin'.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> That's the point though BarrelRacer, he SIRED good foals. So he did do something. Nu Chex may be great bloodlines, but this cremello stud has not only done nothing himself but has sired nothing of merit. So as of this point, he's another dime a dozen sire with good bloodlines.
> 
> The mare is impressive for bloodlines, I just personally find in this day and age that we have TONS of "good bloodlines" on horses sitting around doing nothing. And we have tons of good bloodlines on horses who've proven themselves, so who are you going to choose?
> 
> It's great to provide horses that aren't 20K, I just personally feel this mating is NOT producing marketable foals. Take that mare and breed her to a proven sire, and we may be talking different. But otherwise, these are the same colts ending up at auction - good on paper, with nothing to back it up. It's ENTIRELY possibly for a sire/dam to have a dud, which is why you want to see the sire proven in SOMETHING.


I want to get this straight...

You're saying that because these foals aren't DOING SOMETHING in the POINTS that they aren't WORTH anything? Chili has great bloodlines and stands in my backyard, eating grain and hay all day long. She gets ridden (for maybe 30mins-1hr) every other day when it's nice outside but she is DEFINITELY NOT going to be shown, so because she hasn't PROVEN herself, she isn't WORTH ANYTHING!?

At least, I think that's what you're saying.

She is worth more to me than any paper - any points she could earn or her dam/sire did earn. Her marketability would come into play if she were dead broke for anyone, was in your pocket and actually registered (she's not but can be) but all of that doesn't matter to me. She's MINE and THAT is what makes her WORTH something.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

I want to clarify something about my above statement. 

Do not let said statement lend you any credence to think I'm not knowledgeable about breeding and bloodlines and marketability. What I was trying to impress upon you is that what you find marketable and what someone else finds marketable are different. Maybe one person is JUST looking for bloodlines and doesn't really care that the stallion OR the mare have done anything in the ring - but the bloodlines are there TO DO something in the ring and therefore, they see the potential. 

What you keep saying over and over is that a horse with good bloodlines has a lower chance of marketability and a lower chance to actually do anything if the bloodlines above him haven't done anything. Perhaps it's not that they COULDN'T, they just weren't given the chance? Ya never know. In fact, there are horses who have raced in the Derby who came in dead last who are set up for breeding after retirement and they obviously aren't on the end-all/be-all of winning!

Again, marketability is all in who is looking, what they're looking for and if the ad is up at the time they are looking.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

Chele11 - thats what I took from it also - 

I resent the idea that my not ridable , fugly as hell , no papers old shetland and god only knows what pony is worthless because he has never done anything ?

That pony is worth more to his two year old little mate than any price tag you could put on his head. He spends his days chill-axing in his paddock , getting loved on and brushed until he shines like a new dollar by his little mates , he spends his weekends getting flowers braided into his mane and tail and fed treats and generally being worshipped by the children that visit and stay with us.

That pony lives the life of a god out there, and if I could put myself in his shoes I would in an instant.

like Chele above , he is ours and to us he is worth more than money could buy - no papers and no show record and all.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

and as above , In terms of marketability , I often look for the no papered horses that I can DO somthing with before I would look for one with papers.

It is somthing that is worth somthing to me - heck , if I were a horse , I would be the fugly, grade mare that no one wants.

I just dont think you should close all your doors and windows before you've looked outside.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Hold your horses for just a second (pun intended).

No one is saying that your horse is worthless because it hasn't done anything and is just a pasture puff or a trail mate. That's not the impression I am getting at all.

The point that most responsible and sustainability minded people are making is that a horse, be it a mare or a stallion, should have to prove themselves before they breed. Not that a horse that hasn't is worthless, because we all know that isn't the case. But that a horse should prove their genes before given the chance to inflict them upon another generation.

From a marketing perspective, of course it makes far more sense to prove your horse. "Son of Sat-In-A-Pasture-All-My-Life out of I-Have-A-Uterus" isn't going to attract nearly as much attention as "Son of Won-16-Significant-Level-Championships out of I-Scored-All-These-Points-Look-At-Me". Its fairly simple - marketing comes down to getting the word out, and reputation is by far the most cost effective way to do it.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> Hold your horses for just a second (pun intended).
> 
> No one is saying that your horse is worthless because it hasn't done anything and is just a pasture puff or a trail mate. That's not the impression I am getting at all.
> 
> ...


Well said. And I love those horse names.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Well said. And I love those horse names.


Exactly (I think I owned 1 or 2 of those horses)


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> I want to get this straight...
> 
> You're saying that because these foals aren't DOING SOMETHING in the POINTS that they aren't WORTH anything? Chili has great bloodlines and stands in my backyard, eating grain and hay all day long. She gets ridden (for maybe 30mins-1hr) every other day when it's nice outside but she is DEFINITELY NOT going to be shown, so because she hasn't PROVEN herself, she isn't WORTH ANYTHING!?
> 
> ...


In one post you state that there are to many horses and you should not be breeding then when someone about a horse who is not what you really need in the breeding shed you say something like this.

It is great that you love your horse and it is worth the world to you but I would hope you would not be considering breeding it. There are a lot of horses that are loved by their owners and are worth the world to them but worthless to every other person on the planet.

You say your horse is not registered but could be? Why did your horses breeders not register the horse as a foal then? That is **** poor breeders and are the ones adding to the problem.

There is a lot that goes into breeding and if using proven stock helps the resulting foal have a better chance then that is what we need to do. Like it or not.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that there is sentimental value and then there is market value. They are rarely ever the same.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Hold your horses for just a second (pun intended).
> 
> No one is saying that your horse is worthless because it hasn't done anything and is just a pasture puff or a trail mate. That's not the impression I am getting at all.
> 
> ...


Again, just because a horse is PROVEN does not make him worth any more than one that "just hasn't done anything". I'm not saying a reputable breeder shouldn't DO something with said horse before breeding him/her but at the same time, it doesn't mean their offspring can't do well. To me, that's similar to saying that just because I didn't go to college or have a cushy job, my kids have no chance and aren't (marketable) worth anything bc I (or my husband) didn't prove ourselves. And before ya'll jump - no, it's no different really.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> In one post you state that there are to many horses and you should not be breeding then when someone about a horse who is not what you really need in the breeding shed you say something like this.
> *I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here... *
> 
> It is great that you love your horse and it is worth the world to you but I would hope you would not be considering breeding it. There are a lot of horses that are loved by their owners and are worth the world to them but worthless to every other person on the planet.
> ...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> And before ya'll jump - no, it's no different really.


Yes, it is. I really hate when people try to make comparisons between ANIMALS and HUMANS when it comes to value or future worth. It's not even comparing apples to oranges, it's like comparing elephants to kumquats!

If you breed a done-nothing stally to a done-nothing mare, how do you KNOW what the foal's potential will be? You _don't_. You have no clue, because the parents have done nothing but eat, poop, and have sex. Just because some horse in one of the parents' pedigrees 6 generations back did something, does not ensure that the foal will be able to do anything except what its parents have already proven they can do; eat, poop, and have sex.

Do we really _need_ more done nothing, will never do anything, grade horses? No, we don't. Horses are supposed to be useful ANIMALS. They're _not_ hairy, 4-legged people who don't speak well. If they're _useless_, then they have no _worth_.

Just because _you_ love your fugly wittle snookie uggums, doesn't mean the animal has value. It just means you love it. While there's nothing wrong with loving it, don't say we need more of them, or that they have the same worth as a human being.

Stop anthropomorphizing animals. You do them a grave disservice.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> Again, just because a horse is PROVEN does not make him worth any more than one that "just hasn't done anything". I'm not saying a reputable breeder shouldn't DO something with said horse before breeding him/her but at the same time, it doesn't mean their offspring can't do well. To me, that's similar to saying that just because I didn't go to college or have a cushy job, my kids have no chance and aren't (marketable) worth anything bc I (or my husband) didn't prove ourselves. And before ya'll jump - no, it's no different really.


Jumping off the deep end a little are you?

Are you trying to sell your kids? I thought that was illegal.

Kids prove (or disprove) their worth when they become adults, until then they are the responsibility of their parents. 
They are not a commodity that can be legally sold.
There are programs to assist to make sure they are fed and clothed if you as a parent are not able to do so.

This is not the case with horses.
Horses are a large and expensive luxury item.
If you can not afford them anymore they have to be sellable in the marketplace.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Yes, it is. I really hate when people try to make comparisons between ANIMALS and HUMANS when it comes to value or future worth. It's not even comparing apples to oranges, it's like comparing elephants to kumquats!
> 
> If you breed a done-nothing stally to a done-nothing mare, how do you KNOW what the foal's potential will be? You _don't_. You have no clue, because the parents have done nothing but eat, poop, and have sex. Just because some horse in one of the parents' pedigrees 6 generations back did something, does not ensure that the foal will be able to do anything except what its parents have already proven they can do; eat, poop, and have sex.
> 
> ...


And you honestly think that's different from humans? How so? We do not need more do-nothing, sit on welfare and soak up money undeserving of them ignorant humans and yet, they are allowed to continue to breed. Yes, breed. Because ultimately all they are dong is: eat, sleep, poop have sex. What contributions are they making to their lineage or to society? So, yeah, I think it is the same concept. I am just not afraid to speak it.

I never said I was gonna breed my "fugly wittle snookie uggums" although I've been asked by (what I thought were) reputable breeders to do just that! But then, those same people also breed their dogs when they are barely past a year old. I don't think people should breed horses back every year or breed a 23 yr old mare... but THEY are the reputable ones in the industry. Not me. But then, I'm just a fugly, useless human who woves her ugly-wuggly schnookie-wookums.

Again, useless to you may not be useless to someone else. 

I'd take quite a few horses over a many number of humans any day - including paying for them.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Jumping off the deep end a little are you?
> *Nope. Not really. I just think by stating that a horse has little to no value simply because they are not proven in a show ring is ridiculous. I was simply making a point.*
> 
> Are you trying to sell your kids? I thought that was illegal.
> ...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> Again, just because a horse is PROVEN does not make him worth any more than one that "just hasn't done anything". I'm not saying a reputable breeder shouldn't DO something with said horse before breeding him/her but at the same time, it doesn't mean their offspring can't do well. To me, that's similar to saying that just because I didn't go to college or have a cushy job, my kids have no chance and aren't (marketable) worth anything bc I (or my husband) didn't prove ourselves. And before ya'll jump - no, it's no different really.



Then why do proven sires get bigger stud fee? Why do get of proven stock sell for more money? Why do people who are looking at horses look at pedigrees?


You can not compare people to horses. There are so many differences that it is not funny. Also if you want to go down that road then why is it that people who live in low income areas have a harder time getting a good job?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> There is a lot that goes into breeding and if using proven stock helps the resulting foal have a better chance then that is what we need to do. Like it or not.
> *Have a better chance and bringing in more money you mean? That's what it boils down to, right? *



Bring better money, a better chance of doing what they are bred for, a better chance in so many ways. Why is it do you think that we track pedigrees and performance records and get/produce records? Just for Sh.. and giggles?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> *And as stated, a horse is only worth as much as someone is willing to spend on it - regardless of bloodlines. Well bred, proven horses today are not worth what they were 10-20 years ago.*


Actrually at least in my discipline yes they are worth more today they 10 years ago. They are selling for more now then they did last year.

[/QUOTE]
* Someone can buy a REGISTERED, UNproven horse right now for $500 and MAKE it a proven winner. I've seen it happen.*[/QUOTE]

Perhaps that that is not the rule it is the exception and by a proven winner in what and where? Local show? Breed Show? At what level?
[/QUOTE]
* And reputable, industry leading breeders/showpeople sell grade horses. I know someone who is well known in the cutting industry who is selling a grade horse who isn't even completely broke for almost $2k. I laughed when I heard about it bc there is no way I'd pay that kinda money for an unregistered animal. I could buy a grade horse for $100 and finish it out myself (send it to a trainer) for less money! Do you think they are really going to get that kinda money outta that horse because of how he was bred and what he could be doing bc HIS parents ARE PROVEN. *[/QUOTE]

I can not speak to this b/c I do not know you are talking about. There are a lot of cutters out there who are not registered with AQHA but are registered in a DNA registry so you can prove parentage.


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## ptvintage (Feb 12, 2010)

This is mainly directed at Chele11, but I felt like this quote goes along with my thought.



nrhareiner said:


> Then why do proven sires get bigger stud fee? Why do get of proven stock sell for more money? Why do people who are looking at horses look at pedigrees?


I don't think your people vs horses argument is valid. It could also be brought up how people who are getting sperm or eggs at a sperm bank go for the educated/attractive/good medical history ones. aka, the ones that could be said to be "proven". I've seen plenty of ads requesting college educated women to apply to be egg donors. 

I don't think you can compare people to animals in general though. People have free will and can therefore have sex with whomever they want, or no one if they choose. Some people do make decisions on breeding I wouldn't agree with, and I don't appreciate having my tax dollars pay for their bad decisions, but I think that's a subject for another thread.

Horses are livestock that are kept in human controlled conditions. A mare will breed to an unfit stallion if they are put together, because that's what animals do. If it was a mare out in the wild, I don't think she'd be bred by the conformational trainwreck because the conformational trainwreck is unlikely to survive against the one that's built perfectly to escape predators. Therefore, the "best" stallion, the healthy, well put together one is the one that would lead the herd and make the babies. Darwin picks which of the animals survive. 

I think that's putting it very simply, but I thought maybe you could look at it from another angle. It's the human's responsibility to do they best they can for the horses they bring into this world, and that means giving them the best chance at a happy life by breeding the best to the best. If the best can be measurable by achievements and facts, why is that a bad thing?

(To go with your human vs horse argument, parents try to do the best for their kids by sending their children to school/college because they know it will increase their worth. Just like a horse being proven in public will increase it's worth)

I think you brought up it costing more too... if there's more well built and well bred animals in the world, the price of the animals is going to go down due to the large supply. So how could you think that people are doing this just for the money? Clearly, they are shooting themselves in the foot if all they care about is money.
(This also goes with the non-registered, didn't do anything, bred horse WILL be worth little to nothing against them. Which is why these animals should not be bred!)


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

This thread is so far removed from the OP feeling sorry for a package deal...

I have better things to do with my time than argue about the fundamentals of breeding - especially when I agree with them! I just don't agree with the philosophy that a horse has to be the end all/be all of winners to prove his/her worth.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> This thread is so far removed from the OP feeling sorry for a package deal...
> 
> I have better things to do with my time than argue about the fundamentals of breeding - especially when I agree with them! I just don't agree with the philosophy that a horse has to be the end all/be all of winners to prove his/her worth.



There is a difference between worth as an individual horse and worth as a breeding animal.

If you think that a proven pedigree with proven sires means nothing to the resulting foals worth then go look through sale sites and auctions like the NRHA futurity sale, NCHA, NRCHA, AQHA sales. Look at the differences in prices. Even foals/horses with the same sire will vary in price. Why do you think that is? B/C of the dams. 

Why do you think some horses bring better money then others? Especially before they are trained when they are still prospects? Why do you think that if you take 2 horses with equal training the one with a better pedigree will bring more money as a rule?

If you agree with the fundamentals of breeding then you must under stand why a proven horse is a better gamble then an unproven horse when it comes to breeding. If you do not see that then you do not under stand the fundamentals of breeding at all.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Chele11 said:


> Again, just because a horse is PROVEN does not make him worth any more than one that "just hasn't done anything".


This doesn't make sense. Proven horses will (99% of the time, gotta cover my butt here) sell better than a horse that hasn't done anything. Why would people spend more on a horse that hasn't done anything over a horse that has?? Simple economics tell you that. 
Horse A is proven in its discipline. Horse B is a pasture puff. Assuming everything else is equal, who in their right mind would choose the pasture puff over the proven horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> Again, just because a horse is PROVEN does not make him worth any more than one that "just hasn't done anything". I'm not saying a reputable breeder shouldn't DO something with said horse before breeding him/her but at the same time, it doesn't mean their offspring can't do well.


 I'm afraid I don't quite understand, or agree with, this statement. You're saying that two full brothers, for example, are worth the exact same in breeding worth, even though one may be an unbroken, unhaltered mess, and the other a proven GP showjumper? Which one is going to go for a heftier stud fee? The GP showjumper. Same reason why Secretariat was worth so much as a stud, but other sons of Bold Ruler were not--they were of similar breeding, but most of BR's offspring didn't have it in them to go the distance....though their breeding was very similar. A breedable horse should _add_ something to his genetics, not carry on less than or the same as their predecessors, to be worthy of breeding.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

I have better things to do with my time than argue about the fundamentals of breeding - especially when I agree with them! *I just don't agree with the philosophy that a horse has to be the end all/be all of winners to prove his/her worth.* A good solid horse doesn't have to be the BEST in order to be bred. If that is the case, then nearly ALL equine breeding farms should be shut down. 

And no, I'm not saying that a GP showjumper vs his brother who is an unbroken, unhaltered mess have the same breeding worth. I'm saying that the other COULD BE worth the same IF he has something done with him - that's what I keep trying to say over and over. That just because a horse HASN'T done anything, doesn't mean it CAN'T. A horse isn't going to just run out to a show and start doing his thing in front of a crowd even though that's what it was bred to do. It sill have to be trained and without the training, what's the point. I was AGREEING with other statements that a horse that has a good bloodline but no training isn't going to garner as much money as one with training. BUT. I don't believe that saying the proven horse WILL produce as good of offspring as the unproven.

IF BOTH horses were trained and one did poorly with the same bloodlines, then that horse shouldn't be bred. But if that horse was never trained in the first place, it's a 50-50 shot because you don't know what he can produce or not produce. I'd say you'd be more likely to get more money out of a horse with good bloodlines who is a (quote unquote) pasture puff than out of one who has good bloodlines but just couldn't cut the mustard when given the opportunity. 

and yes, I think that A GOOD NUMBER of breeders are mainly in it for the money. Not all of them, but quite a few of them.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer earlier.

I was trying to work, keep tabs on my daughter and keep my eyes open at the same time. I was up a little late last night reading the threads! <bad me>


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> IF BOTH horses were trained and one did poorly with the same bloodlines, then that horse shouldn't be bred. But if that horse was never trained in the first place, it's a 50-50 shot because you don't know what he can produce or not produce.


 Why would you take this chance, though? I strongly believe in never breeding for bloodlines, but if there's a 50/50 chance that a horse will either be great or be a dud, why would you take the chance and breed? Why is this horse being bred, then? For bloodlines?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have stated this before and I will state it again. If you are breeding and at the very very least not braking even then stop. I have been breeding horses for about 15 years and have NOTHING into any of my horses. They have all paid their own way. 

Think about it. Why is it that people seem to think that people who breed be it horses dog or what ever should not be in it to make money? If you do not make money doing it then how is that business going to survive?

Do you think people breed cattle not to make money? What about Dairy farms? They breed and do it to make money. There is NOTHING wrong with making money breeding. Some will make more then others some on an individual bases will lose money on a certain horse but in the end it should come out in the wash.

Also if you think a horse with a great pedigree will not sell for more then even a trained horse then why is it that the prospects at the futurity sale bring better money them some if not most of the finished geldings??

If all you are looking for is a nice well trained horse to ride and play with then yes you can easily find a nice older horse who will not cost a lot. They are out there. So why breed more middle of the rode horses. Just like has been stated even when breeding the best to the best sometimes you do not get the best. So why start with mediocre horses in the first place??

Also there are many different level of horses. Even with in a given discipline. So that needs to be looked at too. I breed for horses who can do just as well in the open as they do with the non pro. However that does not mean that just anyone can ride one of my horses. They are not easy horses to get shown. Even though they have earnings in green and rookie classes. Yet there are horses who b/c of their breeding are not going to make an open level horse but are great for Green and Rookie riders who can not quite ride an open level horse. There is a place for both. Both however come from proven breedings/pedigrees.

This is why I say that there is so much that goes into breeding that you can not just say I will cross this proven sire to this proven dam. It is not that simple.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> Why would you take this chance, though? I strongly believe in never breeding for bloodlines, but if there's a 50/50 chance that a horse will either be great or be a dud, why would you take the chance and breed? Why is this horse being bred, then? For bloodlines?



See now I want the bloodlines. They can tell you so much about a horse. However I also want to see the individual horse do something. I guess I want it all. I want pedigree I want a horse with proven sire and dam. One with good conformation and an even better work ethic.

Until you actually back a horse it is hard to tell if they have what it takes. I am good at picking out prospects. I am typically correct 98% of the time about what a horse will be. However the work ethic is one of the harder things to predict. A pedigree will give you a good incite on that one. Along with how they learn and how fast they will pick things up.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> See now I want the bloodlines. They can tell you so much about a horse. However I also want to see the individual horse do something. I guess I want it all. I want pedigree I want a horse with proven sire and dam. One with good conformation and an even better work ethic.


Perhaps I should have clarified. Bloodlines are nice to have, and boost the market for a horse, but if the horse is only being bred because he has nice lines, that's where I have a problem.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Chele11 said:


> I have better things to do with my time than argue about the fundamentals of breeding


I always laugh when I see someone post something like this. For some reason they never stop posting even after they say it is not worth their time.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> Perhaps I should have clarified. Bloodlines are nice to have, and boost the market for a horse, but if the horse is only being bred because he has nice lines, that's where I have a problem.



I agree. I like to use proven horses. Now given 2 horses both done nothing horses one who is a son or daughter of top producing parents and the other has nothing until you get 3-4+ generations back. I will take the one with a proven pedigree every time. Given they do not have crappy conformation or something like that.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I agree. I like to use proven horses. Now given 2 horses both done nothing horses one who is a son or daughter of top producing parents and the other has nothing until you get 3-4+ generations back. I will take the one with a proven pedigree every time. Given they do not have crappy conformation or something like that.


 Absolutely, but I would not breed either unless they prove themselves.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

equiniphile said:


> Why would you take this chance, though? I strongly believe in never breeding for bloodlines, but if there's a 50/50 chance that a horse will either be great or be a dud, why would you take the chance and breed? Why is this horse being bred, then? For bloodlines?


I wouldn't.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Chele I am sorry, but you just aren't making sense. You are AGREEING with the points people are raising, am I correct? You do agree that a horse should prove itself before breeding? 

Your posts are a little hard to make sense of, so I just want to clarify. Because when I read them, I get that impression.


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## Chele11 (Nov 29, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I always laugh when I see someone post something like this. For some reason they never stop posting even after they say it is not worth their time.


Perhaps because we just can't help ourselves!


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

This is a very odd thread. Just sayin


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