# What to do with 4 yo abused bucking bronco?



## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi All:
My neighbor bought a beautiful 18H abused 4 yo gelding, turned him out with daily feeding and training and handling for 6 months, had him in training for 2 months with a very lightweight trainer, no problems, well behaved, then he comes back & bucks and spins every time someone gets on, including the trainer. Trainer didn't fall off, but most people would. What to do? Not a horse for my neighbor, can't sell him or donate to a school. He is afraid of everything, movement, people, loud noises, probably badly beaten, then allowed to bully children (he's not afraid of children) so he's both a scaredy horse and a bully. Spins and kicks or pushes/pulls. Doesn't bite, gets along w/other horses. Very handsom, smart, nimble, can do 1 tempi changes on his own. Probably draft/TB. I can't keep him, too many horses already, plus don't want to get hurt.

Any suggestions other than auction/sell would be welcome. What kind of person would want such a horse, handsome and troubled as he is?
Thanks,
Star


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## Skutterbotch (Dec 1, 2009)

get a trainer or rehome it and they can get a trainer


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Have they done a complete physical and blood panel workup on this animal? That would be the first place I'd start, to see if maybe he has some physical issue that makes riding painful for him.

If that turns out not to be the case and he's just a nut, unless they can give him to someone who is willing to take on a troubled, aggressive horse as a project, their best bet is to have him euthanised.

There are plenty of safe, sound, sane horses out there. Nobody needs to endanger themselves by trying to deal with this animal.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Yes, he's had a complete physical. No problems. Same saddle as before, same bridle. Just too hard to handle after the abuse & too big. Any other ideas? Not a lot of $$ for retraining. Plan to advertise & do a throrough reference check if prospective owner is found; put him down if no owners found. Might be a good candidate for a prison ministry if we can find one, since it will probably take a very long time to tame him.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I agree with Speedracer about the physical, not so much about the euthanization. They could give him to a reputable rescue. A rescue could be able to sort out his problems as they deal with abused horses on a daily basis. If they don't want to give him up and dont want to pay for training a pasture ornament is allways an option as long as they can keep him under control on the ground. If they are willing to spend the money then they could keep trying diffrent trainers. Maybe even "natural horsemanship". They just have to keep trying until they figure out how he works.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Lonestar, rescues are not dumping grounds for crazy, old, or unsound horses. 

I don't understand why so many people say, "Give it to a rescue!" as if they're just dying for everyone's cast offs. 

Besides that, most reputable rescues are already full to bursting right now, and don't have the ability to take on a horse that nobody else wants.

If the animal's current owners don't want to be bothered with him and a suitable home can't be found, there's no reason the horse shouldn't be euthed.

They _knowingly_ took on an abused animal, so it's their responsibility to either find the right situation or put him down.

I'm one of those people who believe in personal responsibility and taking care of my own messes. I don't try to fob them off onto someone else.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

Poor guy, what a sad case! I don't know about elsewhere in the country where land/board is much cheaper but rescues out here generally don't have the money and resources to deal with these sorts of horses. It seems like that would be the point of a rescue... but from my limited experience it seems like they mainly focus on taking new horses that can be turned around to find good homes. The more money and time and space a horse drains from a rescue the fewer horses they can help, especially when most of their money goes into medical rehabilitation and care.

If he's very good looking (unusually so) I bet you could find someone who could take him on as a project. Generally I would think there would have to be something unique / special about him to make him stand out from the other horses that need someone to put time/training/money into them as a project that are less dangerous.

Did you say he did very very well sent away to training and then became dangerous when he came back? Maybe just getting him out of that environment and somewhere else could turn him around and make his training easier?


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I know it's not a dumping ground. But I think that death should be the last option. The poster said that the horse was well behaved at the trainers, but crazy at their house. Maybe its a comfort thing. I do think a rescue would be a better option than death. But thats just my opinion.


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## GraciesMom (Jun 17, 2010)

What about some reputable rodeo stock breeder that will haul him to rodeos? A lot of rodeo stock are very well taken care of and treated with respect. Sounds like he would fit right in!


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I went through something very similar with my 16.2hh saddlebred. He was horribly abused, dangerous, and afraid of everything. He originally came to me as a retrain, but we bonded and i couldn't let him go once he established some trust in me. I'm willing to bet he can be rehabbed, but it would HAVE to be with someone knowledgeable and it will take time and lots of it. And obviously he will cope better in a forever home, selling him off to someone new might trigger a relapse. Best bet, find someone that knows their stuff to take him on.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I also believe death should be the very last option, but it should never be ruled out completely just because some people are squeamish.

If I had a dangerous horse I'd never be able to get rid of it, because I'd feel responsible if I let someone else take it and they got hurt or killed.

People like to put their fingers in their ears and go, "Lalalalala! I can't hear you!" when someone mentions euthing a dangerous or crippled animal. They'd rather bury their heads in the sand and try to get someone else to take on what is ultimately their responsibility.

I don't believe in doing that; I never have. If it's my mess I'll take care of the clean up, whatever that entails.

Some horses are just not fixable. It's nobody's fault, it just is. More people need to realize this.

Death is not a scary bugaboo. It happens to all of us, and sometimes unfortunately, it happens sooner rather than later.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> .
> 
> Some horses are just not fixable. It's nobody's fault, it just is.


I agree. While I think that euth should be the last option, it should still be an option. Some horses never come back from abuse. If he is dangerous on the ground and under saddle and his only redeeming quality is his looks, its time to call the vet. Handing off a problem horse onto someone else isn't very smart. We took in a horse at the rescue who was bat-sh*t crazy. Would attack people, dogs, other horses. We were told 'if you can get past that, hes a great ride'...if you never encounter other horses, people or dogs on your trails. After some time invested in him, he had to be put down. We could have moved him on to someone else. Im sure there are people who think he could have been 'fixed' but truth be told, someone would have gotten killed. Euth isn't always the sexiest option, but sometimes its the best


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I'm not against euthing a horse that in no way can be rehabed. i work at a vet clinic where people have brought in animals to be put down simply becuase they dont want them anymore. We try and get them to sign the animals over to us as much as possible but we still have those who wont. But this horse could have a chance if you can find a way to make it click to him that "hey this isnt so bad after all" I wouldnt let it go to someone who didnt understand the responsibility they were taking on. But he still needs to be givin a chance.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, some people do want animals euthed because they no longer want them. 

Would you rather they abandon them, hoping some kind soul will find and feed them? Dogs and cats like that either get hit by cars, or are eaten by wild predators. Very few actually find someone to take them in.

So even though you don't _like_ the idea, at least these people are responsible enough to bring the animal in to be euthed, instead of just throwing them out of the car on some lonely back road.

I've had emaciated dogs and sick cats show up at my place time and time again, because I'm out in the country and their moronic owners thought they'd give the animals 'a chance' at finding a farm home.

I have a different spin on things, having seen far too often what people do to get out of something they're too cowardly to have done.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Thank you for your opinions. I'd rather not put the horse down either, since he has come so far in 8 months. I don't have time to work with him, though.

Yes, the horse in my view is unusually handsome - 18H TB/Draft cross, well proportioned, tobiano - black w/4 white stockings and a white blanket over his shoulders. Also very sweet when being groomed or talked to, shews and licks his lips like he's really listening, follows you around the paddock, comes when called - if he feels like it.

He's also stubborn, a bully, and a bucking bronco! I still have a big bump on my leg 4 months later from where he kicked me because I didn't let go of him on the leadline when he felt like charging off - he runs past you straight ahead & kicks out on the way by, very quick. Could have broken my arm if he had gotten a little higher. Or if you are touching him on the side when he's not tied & he decides he doesn't like it (after calmly accepting the touch), he can wheel and kick out. I think he could hurt someone on the ground and in the saddle. Some of the wheeling is from being super sensitive and startled, but some is just plain irritation, I think.

He can't stay a pasture ornament - no room or $ or will.
Star


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Could they sell him to a rodeo ground or something? to be a bucking bronco again? 
just get a trainer to handle his ground manners (might take a lot) then sell him to a rodeo ground? 

I think a lot of bucking broncos have a great life... buck the cowboy off, go home, get fed, hang with your buddies, buck a few more cowboys into the dirt.lol. as long as its not an abusing rodeo, then i think he would like it.


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## randiekay215 (Feb 6, 2009)

I agree with ridergirl23. Why not get in touch with a rodeo stock contactor and see if they would be willing to buck him with the test dummy? Most rodeo contractors want big horses like yours-they arent easy to find. I would almost guarantee they'd show some interest. Does your horse haul in the trailer? Sounds to me like he's a little "bipolar" but that really wouldnt matter in this case. He wont be getting handled a great deal (lead line, etc) so this may be a good fit for him. Research the local stock contractors in your area and get in touch with them. Its really NOT an abusive world, rodeo. He'd be getting food, shelter, and medical care when needed. He may just be a good buckin horse! 

Good luck with whatever you decide!


ETA: You said the vet check was clean, so if there's no medical reason for him bucking then great (as far as rodeo goes)...This means that it would be safe to buck him for rodeos-he wouldnt be in any danger/trouble.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

Ah rodeos. :S :S :S :S :S :S I've seen way to many exposes about them and even the big expensive corporate sponsored fancy rodeos make me cringe. Encouraging horses/bulls to buck and be dangerous through abuse or electric prods or devices that make them seriously comfortable bother me. 

Plus, a panicked, terrified unwieldy horse can hurt itself very easily and they do! Thats not a life I would want to send any animal to. I don't care what people say - those bucking horses are not HAPPY or they wouldn't be behaving that way.

Edit: Frankly, I am horrified that anyone would want to capitalize on the abuse this horse has suffered. It's been stated the horse was ABUSED and this is why it bucks. Oh great, lets abuse it some more and make it re-live the trauma for entertainment! A horse bucking because it was abused and mistreated (as the OP has said) should not be exploited to make a bunch of "cowboys" look brave by making the issue worse.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Deerly said:


> Ah rodeos. :S :S :S :S :S :S I've seen way to many exposes about them and even the big expensive corporate sponsored fancy rodeos make me cringe. Encouraging horses/bulls to buck and be dangerous through abuse or electric prods or devices that make them seriously comfortable bother me.
> 
> Plus, a panicked, terrified unwieldy horse can hurt itself very easily and they do! Thats not a life I would want to send any animal to. I don't care what people say - those bucking horses are not HAPPY or they wouldn't be behaving that way.
> 
> Edit: Frankly, I am horrified that anyone would want to capitalize on the abuse this horse has suffered. It's been stated the horse was ABUSED and this is why it bucks. Oh great, lets abuse it some more and make it re-live the trauma for entertainment! A horse bucking because it was abused and mistreated (as the OP has said) should not be exploited to make a bunch of "cowboys" look brave by making the issue worse.


excuse me? you have been watching to many PETA videos on youtube. 
you know why they buck? SEE THAT BUCKING STRAP ON THEIR FLANKS? ya, you know, the one with SHEEPSKIN. ya, thats why they buck, NOT prods or anything. so DO NOT tell me they are abused. YES, there is some abuse in SOME rodeos... but tell me what discipline you ride in... I can show you some abuse in that too, AND i can make it seem like the most horrible thing in the world... THATS what PETA does. so DO NOT tell ME rodeos abuse their horses.

im sorry, but it makes me SOOOOOO mad when people pinpoint ONE discipline or sport and call it abuse when they watch PETA videos. Ive SEEN REAL abuse.

edit: A LOT of those horses DO like to buck. some of them dont even use bucking straps because they ENJOY it, ever seen a horse buck and play in the feild? ya, a lot of the horses like to do that.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

that may be true, ridergirl. yes there is some abuse in all disciplines, but i think the main point is that this is a fearful abused horse and the hustle and bustle of even a humane rodeo is no place for an animal like that. it would likely push him over the edge.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

apachiedragon said:


> that may be true, ridergirl. yes there is some abuse in all disciplines, but i think the main point is that this is a fearful abused horse and the hustle and bustle of even a humane rodeo is no place for an animal like that. it would likely push him over the edge.


im fine with that, but i absalutly hate it when people go on about how abusive rodeos are and how terrible they are. and i dont even go to rodeos! im a dressage rider!


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

I don't think he would enjoy a rodeo at all. He is still afraid of everything and a rodeo would probably blow his mind. If I didn't have too many horses I'd keep him myself, and might just keep him anyway if I can't find a brave, talented, and patient person who wants to work with him. I've just played with him on the ground a little, not really tried to get on him. He got along great with the trainer at her place, and never gave her a bit of trouble. I agree that he can't just go off with someone unsuspecting or ignorant. He does load (with some difficulty). 

I think a prison retraining program would be good since they have so much time on their hands. Anyone know of any in the Mid-Atlantic region?

When you compare this horse with the Romainian stallion, he's not at all as bad on the ground...usually handles fine; just pitched several bucking fits when he got home, and we havent' tried him since. 

Thanks,
Star


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I have seen horses and bulls be let out of the chute with no rider no strap no halter no NOTHING. And they buck like crazy! I have been to big rodeos, small rodeos, rodeos that were rigged up in crappy arenas and I have never seen abuse. One rodeo I went to was in the ****tiest arena I had seen in my life. They had about 10 bulls and one bronc. There was only one guy who rode broncs and after his ride the horses owner walked into the arena, haltered his horse and walked him through the crowd and back to his trailer where he sat a kid on him. The horse did nothing. But in the arena his job was to buck and he did. I have never seen an animal get majorly hurt at a rodeo. And I go to ALOT of rodeos.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Star Freedom said:


> I don't think he would enjoy a rodeo at all. He is still afraid of everything and a rodeo would probably blow his mind. If I didn't have too many horses I'd keep him myself, and might just keep him anyway if I can't find a brave, talented, and patient person who wants to work with him. I've just played with him on the ground a little, not really tried to get on him. He got along great with the trainer at her place, and never gave her a bit of trouble. I agree that he can't just go off with someone unsuspecting or ignorant. He does load (with some difficulty).
> 
> I think a prison retraining program would be good since they have so much time on their hands. Anyone know of any in the Mid-Atlantic region?
> 
> ...


if he was fine at the trainers... I would guess it would be handlers fault? im not pointing fingers or anything, but if hes fine with the trainer, but is not good with his owners.... wouldnt it be the handler doing something wrong?


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

About the handling; it's not normal for a horse to have a bucking bronco fit. I definitely think this horse is not right for his owner, but fault? It's the fault of whoever beat him up, then of whoever taught him to buck, and those people have yet to be ID'ed...my neighbor got him from a gal who buys horses at auction - New Holland in PA - & flips them. So she got this horse at auction & couldn't sell him (until my neighbor came along and fell in love w/his looks, even though we could barely handle him, and couldn't catch him at home for several weeks!).


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Star Freedom said:


> About the handling; it's not normal for a horse to have a bucking bronco fit. I definitely think this horse is not right for his owner, but fault? It's the fault of whoever beat him up, then of whoever taught him to buck, and those people have yet to be ID'ed...my neighbor got him from a gal who buys horses at auction - New Holland in PA - & flips them. So she got this horse at auction & couldn't sell him (until my neighbor came along and fell in love w/his looks, even though we could barely handle him, and couldn't catch him at home for several weeks!).


Im just wondering, if he was fine at the trainers, maybe the handlers are doing something to set him off? 

it just sounds weird that he was fine at the trainers but has fits at home... it just makes me think maybe they handle him somehow that set him off?


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

His problem lies in his insecurities, or "bulliness". His coping mechanism is to buck and bolt. The extreme measures of fight and flight that he is exhibiting are showing how mentally unstable he is at the moment. That is what needs to be addressed, the mental state.

I have retrained horses like this as well as horses that went through the bucking string of rodeos. The rodeos are hard on the horses body, but what discipline isn't? 

I also work at a rescue. There are 2 people at this rescue of hundreds of volunteers that would even be capable of handling a horse like you describe, myself being one of those people. The majority of the people at rescues are the nicest people you will meet, but many of them are bleeding hearts. We do end up getting some pretty extreme crazies in, which usually results in me or the other person being the sole handlers of those horses for a long time.

Even working at a rescue and having retrained some pretty monster cases before, I am not against euthanization. Many of the horses that get to me have a laundry list of homes that they've been run through and people that they have hurt. I have turned some pretty extreme cases into schooling horses, but I know for a fact that these horses would revert to their old ways if they had a lapse of leadership over a long period of time.

I often see horses in a distressed state of mind. This often makes me think along the lines that there are worse things in life than death. Very few people have the presence to change an extreme horse anymore, and the fact that these horses are then essentially left the only option to be live their life in fear, always on the defensive, is that any way to live?

If you can find someone that can handle him, then give him to them. Sadly these horses are usually the best mounts, since they have the mind to know when to say "no" to a bad deal. Unfortunately, when I travel from barn to barn, I see that there are far more bad deals out there than good deals when interpretted to the eyes of a horse.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

So, given that he's been with me & my neighbor for 6 months and at the trainer for 2 months, and is still in quite a state, how long do you think it would take him to get over it? Probably can't even hazard a guess. I think he is afraid of his owner, more so than of me, but he's bad with me too when he doesn't want to do something, like move over or stop or be led in a different direction than he wants to go.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

I just re-read your post. Hmmm...2 out of 100's. I'll be looking for a long time! Ask around at rescues for experienced handlers? This horse is so beautiful and lovable (when he's not causing harm!) that someone should want him, just not to ride for a while. Funny that he gave the trainer no trouble. But she has a very quiet stable, no visitors, just her & her kids and a very calm manner. My neighbor is not mean, just a little brusk.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

ridergirl23 said:


> excuse me? you have been watching to many PETA videos on youtube.
> you know why they buck? SEE THAT BUCKING STRAP ON THEIR FLANKS? ya, you know, the one with SHEEPSKIN. ya, thats why they buck, NOT prods or anything. so DO NOT tell me they are abused. YES, there is some abuse in SOME rodeos... but tell me what discipline you ride in... I can show you some abuse in that too, AND i can make it seem like the most horrible thing in the world... THATS what PETA does. so DO NOT tell ME rodeos abuse their horses.
> 
> im sorry, but it makes me SOOOOOO mad when people pinpoint ONE discipline or sport and call it abuse when they watch PETA videos. Ive SEEN REAL abuse.
> ...


Erm... I'm not saying anything about western disciplines or actual horseback riding of any kind. A horse bucking in exuberance and happiness is not what would make an interesting rodeo because he would do it once or twice and then stop. A bucking bronco is a wildly different spectacle and I don't care what a flank strap is made out of -- the entire point of any sort of device to make a horse (or bull or other animal) uncomfortable and buck is inhumane imho. A horse that is so mentally unstable and scared and violent that it would buck nonstop without any aids is not a healthy and happy animal.

My point was mostly that this horse was ABUSED and already traumatized and why anyone would want to exploit its traumatized condition for bucking entertainment is beyond me.

And btw, I'm not some PETA nut job and I think that organization has no credibility but any reputable animal advocate organizations frown on those type of rodeo events as the abuses are common place and prolific.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

All animal advocate organizations are against everything to do with rodeos, dog shows, cat shows, bird shows, racing, jumping,fishing, etc. They think any animal that doesn't just sit around all day is being forced into slavery... Sorry, don't buy your story about animal advocates, that's just another run off from PETA>
To the original OP, you state the horse is lovable and easy to handle, as long as you don't touch him in the wrong spot when he has decided he no longer likes it, don't ask him to lead where he doesn't want to go, don't ask him to be ridden, etc.... This is not a stable horse, this is a horse that will kick out one of these days and hit somebody in the head and kill them. He will run someone over and kill them. If he knows enough to kick out when he is pulling away from you, if he knows enough to kick out when he no longer wants to be touched or groomed, he is smart enough to know the person will walk away. Same story, just different excuses.
Once an animal, any animal learns it can scare away the person doing what it doesn't want to do, it will continue doing it. Anyway you look at it, he is dangerous because you will never know what sets him off. Sure there might be someone willing to take him on, but I would make sure the person getting the horse from your friends signs paperwork stating they KNOW the horse will kick, run over you, buck you off, etc. Otherwise the new owner could come back and sue the neighbor. I had a friend sell a beautiful registered QH mare bred back with a foal at her side. The new owner was told at the time and signed a paper stating the horse was for breeding purposes only, she was not to be ridden, period, that she was unridable. My friend did this for his safety.. Guess what, the new owner decided she knew more about this mare than the original owner, tried to ride her and got hurt very very badly. She lived, but immediatley tried to sue the original owner stating she was not told the mare was unridable. The old owner had the signed paperwork and the lawsuit failed. 
I would make sure if the neighbor signs the horse over to anyone, rescue, rodeo, prison, etc that they make sure the horse is sold as dangerous to ride and handle.
To me, the horse should be euthanized before it kills someone, it will happen since he sounds like a ticking time bomb.
Just not worth the risk.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Um, not ALL animal advocate groups are against rodeos. Our rescue doesn't abhor rodeo- as long as the animals are treated humanely.

OP, as a rescue person myself- I would ask you to please consider euthanizing this horse. Why? Because the more a rescue spends time and money on one horse saving it, that is that much we take away from a healthy, sane horse that just needs some groceries and love.

There are over 100,000 horses each year shipped to Canada and Mexico (that we can document, I am sure there are more!) that get cut up and put into little cans. We are working to help as many as possible avoid that fate. We do pull the ones we know we can save, turn around and place in a new home as fast as possible. Its like any business- and yes, rescue is a business. Only we have an overwhelming supply, and not enough demand.

Someone once said, here is a 5 gallon bucket, a one cup measuring cup, and a garden hose. First put the hose in the bucket, and using the cup bail the water out. You can do it for a while, but then after a bit the hose gets ahead of you, the bucket starts to overflow, and you exhaust yourself trying to bail the bucket out.

This is the reality of rescue. There are simply TOO MANY good horses for us to "waste" our time and resources trying to save one aggressive or unadoptable animal.

I am so sorry. I am sure he is a beautiful boy. Frankly, they all are.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Draftrider,I did not meant to imply rescue groups at all, I was meaning Peta, Hsus, and the knock off "humanics" who are using any excuse to further their agendas. Sorry if it seemed that is what I said. 
I do like the analogy of the bucket, hose and water, sure hits the nail on the head.
Rescue groups are so full of adoptable sound animals of any type, there is just not enough room for animals that are dangerous ones. People who dump horses because they no longer want to feed them, dump litters of puppies/kittens off on rescues because they would not neuter their animals, so figure rescues are there for them to leave the babies, dumping off dogs and cats in the country so they can "live free" and the story goes on and on.


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## purplefoal (Jun 30, 2010)

Hmm... could someone with extra pasture space take him in? If he's come so far in 8 months it would be terribly sad to have him euthanized. I know plenty of people (at least around here, where I am) who have extra pasture space for a horse just to chill and graze in. Someone would probably take him under, even if they don't intent to do anything with him. Maybe try the parelli method if you... or your neighbors want to continue working on him. Any pictures?

As for rodeos, I feel that many rodeo bucking horses are well treated, in fact they are bred to be bucking horses and are often sold at high prices because of their superb "bucking" bloodlines. The sheepskin sinch is there to make them buck, they aren't necessarily angry and often go home to lush pastures and buddies.

I understand, however, that this isn't always the case, and there are always sad situations like this where the horses are abused and treated unkindly. 

I am not opposed to rodeo. I am opposed to abuse, which can take place in any event with animals.

Good luck with your case. Poor horsey.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> Draftrider,I did not meant to imply rescue groups at all, I was meaning Peta, Hsus, and the knock off "humanics" who are using any excuse to further their agendas. Sorry if it seemed that is what I said.
> I do like the analogy of the bucket, hose and water, sure hits the nail on the head.
> Rescue groups are so full of adoptable sound animals of any type, there is just not enough room for animals that are dangerous ones. People who dump horses because they no longer want to feed them, dump litters of puppies/kittens off on rescues because they would not neuter their animals, so figure rescues are there for them to leave the babies, dumping off dogs and cats in the country so they can "live free" and the story goes on and on.


Oh ok! I can't stand Peta or the HSUS either. Neither of them do anything to directly help animals- they would rather kill them and remove our rights to own them. Sickening to me the donations that pour into those places, when our rescue is needing to buy another round pen we can't get hardly anyone to donate!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Star Freedom said:


> I think a prison retraining program would be good since they have so much time on their hands. Anyone know of any in the Mid-Atlantic region?


I actually replied to that one in your other thread, but I'm pretty sure they (as well as any rescue I know of around) will NOT take a horse just because the owner can't handle the behavioral issues. We have WAY too many starved horses around who indeed need help. 

If your friend doesn't have money for the trainer, then put the horse down if he's as dangerous as it sounds. Or try to give him -for free- to the good trainer if he/she agrees to take him in (and I know such cases too, BTW). I'm sorry to sound rude, but it sounds like your friend tries to move the financial problems on someone else (rescues in this case, which are pretty low financial themself). Because reputable rescues send such horses to the good trainers, who are not cheap even if they give rescue a break, and for such horse it = load of money (if he'll be able to be fixed at all to the point he's a reliable mount).


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

There comes a time when the right thing to do is not the most palatable. Dumping that horse to a rescue, or prison training program, even if it was feasible, would be taking away a spot that could go to trainable horse. Just like people, not all horses can be rehabilitated and to pawn him off somewhere may ease your mind so that you don't have to face it, but that horse is going to hurt or kill someone and I'm sure you don't want that on your conscious. Putting him down is the right thing to do.

(Of course all this depends on the information that the OP gave).


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Deerly said:


> I don't care what a flank strap is made out of -- the entire point of any sort of device to make a horse (or bull or other animal) uncomfortable and buck is inhumane imho.


What do you use on your horse? Bit, saddle, etc?

The bucking strap tells the bronc or the bull that it's time to go to work. Just the same as when you put your saddle and bridle on your horse.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Just for reference, there was a really good article in Western Horsemen a few months back about 'bucking stock' horses. They have their own bloodlines. They breed exclusivly for the buck. If nothing else, the article proves that a bronc has a few short minutes of bucking once a week. The rest of the time, they are pampered like show horses. The best bucking broncs are treated like superstars. 

When it came down to euthing a horse at our rescue, we all had to sit down and have a talk about it. We have horses and people of all ages and experience. One happened to be a young volunteer (12) and her personal rescue, an orphan foal. When this horse was at his worst, he knocked over another horse nearly twice his size and *stood* on him. Biting the whole time. When the young girl spoke up she asked "How would we all feel if instead of a horse twice his size, it had been star-baby?" We all agreed it was time. 

I think you need to step back from the situation and really consider your options. He may have made some progress, or he could have 'trained' you how to deal with him. How would you feel if instead of some innocent bystander...it was your daughter he decides to go after?


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

mls said:


> What do you use on your horse? Bit, saddle, etc?
> 
> The bucking strap tells the bronc or the bull that it's time to go to work. Just the same as when you put your saddle and bridle on your horse.


If my bit or girth made my horse buck or act in an aggressive or panicked way you had better bet I would find a different one. In fact, when your horse is bucking that's one of the first things you look for - if the girth or saddle or other tack is not fitting correctly and making them uncomfortable! The purpose of a girth is to keep the saddle on the horse, not to give it any cues or influence it's behavior. 

I'm amazed people who are around, love and own horses would think making them act that way is a form of good care and love. You don't need to be fed propaganda to have two eyes and WATCH the violence and testosterone driven bravado and feel some empathy to the animals.

I wasn't going to post anymore because clearly we'll never see eye to eye on the matter but I just had to say something to the whole girth comment.

I think it's pretty funny that you will knee-jerk against someone being concerned for the well being of an animal and automatically associate them with nutballs or disgusting organizations like PETA (who, as a feminist, I find completely appalling)... and yet, you get very upset if someone implies that "all" rodeos are bad, or that the concept is distasteful because some times they are in fact abusive and dangerous. Respect and open mindedness go both ways. Please don't pigeon hole me - even on the internet I don't appreciate that. 

So, agree to disagree


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Deerly said:


> If my bit or girth made my horse buck or act in an aggressive or panicked way you had better bet I would find a different one. In fact, when your horse is bucking that's one of the first things you look for - if the girth or saddle or other tack is not fitting correctly and making them uncomfortable! The purpose of a girth is to keep the saddle on the horse, not to give it any cues or influence it's behavior.


I think you missed the point of MLS's post.

Bucking horses are not panicked and are not bucking because they are in pain or scared to death. 

They are bucking because that is their job. The bucking strap is just their way of knowing it is time to go to work. Nothing more.

Nothing at all to do with the strap causing discomfort or anything else.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I'm not picking a fight or taking sides here. I have an honest to goodness question. How do they teach them to buck in the first place? Isn't the bucking strap initially used for this purpose? Not being ugly, I really don't know. If not then how else do they learn that the strap means time to buck? Please can someone clarify without being defensive?


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

You can train a horse to wear a strap in their flank and not buck. Just like you can train a horse to wear a saddle and not buck. After awhile they become used to it and it's not big deal. Deerly...how do you think your horse was trained? Do you think that first haltering...saddling...riding was just fine with him. He wasn't born like that. Bucking horses are encouraged to buck as where riding horses are discouraged to buck. When the horse bucks the person off they run back to the chute and once they are completely done with the rodeo the horse goes home and eats and relaxes just the same if you take your horse into the arena and do some riding...it's the horses job.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

DakotaLuv said:


> You can train a horse to wear a strap in their flank and not buck. Just like you can train a horse to wear a saddle and not buck. After awhile they become used to it and it's not big deal. Deerly...how do you think your horse was trained? Do you think that first haltering...saddling...riding was just fine with him. He wasn't born like that. Bucking horses are encouraged to buck as where riding horses are discouraged to buck. When the horse bucks the person off they run back to the chute and once they are completely done with the rodeo the horse goes home and eats and relaxes just the same if you take your horse into the arena and do some riding...it's the horses job.


Ugh no please stop dragging me in... we clearly aren't going to agree :lol:

I wasn't around when my horse was first saddled so I don't know but there sure are respectful ways to teach a horse to be ridden as opposed to "breaking" a horse and whipping the bucks out or tying their heads between their legs or any of the other things that make me (personally) uncomfortable - regardless of the end result.

A horse that constantly bucks violently is not the flipside of a horse that stands calmly when mounted. As you said, eventually the horse gets used to it and calms down. That's a natural animal response. They aren't looking for a few natural bucks, it's a very intense effect which is the point. I get that it's their "job" but that doesn't mean they are calm, happy horses during their job - I've never seen a calm happy horse act that violently. You can breed/train dogs and roosters to fight or be violent or any other creature but just because they are trained/bred to does not make it any less sad to me. 

Just like any commercially owned animals - I'm sure the very expensive "big time" animals are treated well in their time off and the vast majority of smaller time animals are not. Just like race horses, it comes down to money.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Deerly, I think you are missing the point people are trying to make (maybe on purpose).

Horses are bred to do certain things. When you have a horse that is good at something you breed that horse to another horse that is good at the same something in hopes of making more horses that are even better at that same something. Good bronc horses do not just happen. They are bred to happen.

Plus, you can train your horse to do just about anything. Jump jumps, run around barrels, etc. Training them that bucking when their strap is put on is no different than training a horse that when you turn the corner and point them at the jump they are supposed to take nice even strides all the way there and jump over it, not dodge around it.

You seem to insist that training a bronc horse has to include cruelty. I think you have been misguided some where along the way.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Here's a couple of interesting articles about bucking horses and suppliers. 

NAIA: Professional rodeo horses are bred to buck

Need An Ornery Critter? Harry Vold Supplies Bucking Stock - 12.09.85 - SI Vault

Kirsten Vold takes over family business, proves doubters wrong - ESPN


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Excellent articles - thank you!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree, thanks for posting the articles MN.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

No problem, I was curious so I did a little research into the subject.  I've heard before that broncs aren't forced/made but are born instead and I wondered if it was true.

Not saying this is the best option for this horse, but you may look into finding a REPUTABLE company and seeing if he has what it takes. He gets to spend most of his time outside eating. Goes to a couple of competitions where he gets to buck to his heart's content, gets some loving and back outside with the herd. LOL, I know several horses that would love that lifestyle (except for the bucking that is!)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

He may be fine as a rodeo bucking horse, but that does not change the fact that this horse is also dangerous on the ground. I cannot imagine trying to get him in a pen at a rodeo. And, with his size, I would have to say, as sad as it is, he needs to either go back to the trainer who he was fine for (free), or be euthed. We actually have one similar to this (only he was NEVER abused) but even after 8 months of training he remains dangerous and totally untrustworthy. One minute he is fine, the next he just explodes. Would sooner run over you than look at you, and bolts out into the iddle of the road, etc..... No explanation-ever. This is exactly the kind of horse who will find themselves in a really BAD situation, imo. Rehome after rehome and could get into the wrong hands easily. Wouldn't you rather know he was peacefully euthed rather than always wonder? I know if he were mine, I would. Good luck, and please, be careful.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Franknbeans - That was the one thing I thought of after I finished typing (and got back to work ). If he is dangerous on the ground I doubt they would want him anyways. They don't want horses that try to kill people leading/grooming them.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

It seems the owner and the OP are trying to ignore that this horse is dangerous. Not only being ridden, but on the ground also. Dangerous as able to kill a person should his temper tantrum of kicking out quickly hit a person in the head or chest. Okay, he can be cuddly at times, but what about the times he is not, and he is kicking and running over people.
No, they should do the best thing for the horse and have him euthanized and possible save someones life. I could not even give a horse away that was dangerous like that, would wonder for the rest of my life if he did indeed kill someone, and then feel totally responsible for it.
From the posts, I imagine the horse will be passed to someone else.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Thank you all very much for your responses. You know what? I think my neighbor tightened the girth too much because my neighbor is a big man and the saddle slipped. Then when the trainer went to get on at our place it was with the same saddle and the horse remembered the prior incident. So all the talk about bucking horses & straps was helpful in diagnosing the problem.

As far as dragging people around & kicking without warning, he hasn't done that in several months. He's not always unpredictable, I think he's afraid of being caught. The 3 times he has kicked out were all related to being caught or thinking he was going to be caught. First he kicked his owner who was following him around trying to catch him. Then he kicked me when I had caught him with a lead rope & hadn't quite gotten the halter on - and didn't want to let go of the lead line around his neck. That's when he ran past me & kicked. The 3rd time he thought I was trying to catch him (I wasn't, just petting him while he was not tied up or caught) and he wheeled and kicked out. I think his prior owners used to have trouble catching him, then when they did finally did catch him they beat him up. If one brings a bucket of grain over to his feed bucket he readily lets you catch him at home, without kicking. The trainer never had any trouble catching him since she always caught him and led him into the barn to feed 2X/day.

The advice about the sales contract (lease/give away contract) was very helpful. We think a friend of the trainer will take the horse. In addition to the info about his problems, I'll put a clause in the contract that states the horse must be returned if the new owner doesn't want him anytime within a year, and then after the year is up I would like first right of refusal in this and any subsequent sale so that he doesn't go to the wrong person.

Star


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Star Freedom said:


> He's not always unpredictable,


Sorry, this made me laugh . Horses that are unpredictable tend to not do bad things all the time, that is what makes them unpredictable, otherwise, they would be predictable.

I hope things work out with the trainers friend. I get a lot of horses that people buy because they are pretty and then can't ride. I always tell them "you can't ride pretty". I often find that pretty horses (some, not all), like pretty people, tend to have more insecurity problems because they are held on some type of an emotional pedestal. 

I can tell that by the way you are currently treating his issues, you are avoiding them, not fixing them, which means when he blows, its going to be sudden and hard. If you can find someone willing to work with this horse that has the skills to work with this horse, then great, but please don't get hurt.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Well, glad to brighten your day! 

With regards to letting him get away with things, I have always been a little lenient with horses and dogs, and find that they do come around. Sometimes ignoring problems is better than fighting them. Besides, what would one do with a horse that wheels and kicks out? Can't disciplin them because they are already across the paddock! Each time he has tried to kick, afterwards he cringes and skulks around - he knows he has been bad.

Cheers,
Star


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I won't say whether or not _you_ should euth him but I can tell you that if he were mine, I would probably go ahead and put him down. Horses, by nature (even the very well broke ones), are unpredictable because they are prey animals. Add to that fact that he is perfectly willing to kick and run you over given even the slightest provocation, and not only is he unpredictable, he is dangerous. It would be one thing if he was 11 hands tall and weighed 600 pounds. A horse that size that is dangerous will probably hurt you, but it is unlikely that they would be able to kill you unless they placed a kick perfectly. This horse is 18hh tall and likely weighs more than a ton, with him being already defensive and a kicker, it is only a matter of time before he _really _hurts someone or worse. Unless you can find someone who is very willing and capable of dealing with his issues, then it would be more fair to him to humanely end his life now rather than let him bump from home to home to home until he ends up somewhere worse than he was in previously where they will beat him and then let him starve to death. I hate the thought of any horse having to be put down but there are just some horses that can never be safely handled, let alone trusted. Whether it is due to some trauma that they suffered in their life or if it is just in their nature, there are some that will never change. I have personally known 2 horses that were never safe to ride regardless of how much training or handling they got. One was a QH stud that was given to my Dad because he was dangerous, he would kick, paw, bite, buck, rear, etc. After months of intensive training, my Dad could ride him successfully..............most the time. However, occasionally, something would just click in his mind and he would go completely nuts. My Dad sometimes talks about him as "The only horse who ever bucked the seat out of my pants....literally." The other was a beautiful 4 year old QH gelding. He had never been ridden before Dad got him to train, so no previous issues there, and he would ride nice........most of the time. But, one little thing would go wrong. You would touch him with your leg when he wasn't expecting it or the bridle rein would flap against his shoulder, or he would see something that spooked him a little bit and he would literally explode. I have never in my life seen a horse that would buck that hard and that tricksy.

Sometimes you just can't help a horse with a mental issue that is beyond correction.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha your last post made me laugh, because thats exactly it! and if you smacked him when you caught him, he would NEVER come to you! lol 

But if he doesnt like to be caught, maybe feed him his favourite treats when you catch him, then every once in a while (daily for a while) caatch him, feed him his treat, let him go. come back later and do the same


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Star Freedom said:


> Sometimes ignoring problems is better than fighting them. Besides, what would one do with a horse that wheels and kicks out? Can't disciplin them because they are already across the paddock! Each time he has tried to kick, afterwards he cringes and skulks around - he knows he has been bad.


Ignoring the problem doesn't help, but usually just make it worse. You don't have to fight, you have to teach. And yes, some horses will just never change because they are broke mentally (I've run into such horses in 2 rescues around). It's very sad.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I can honestly say that I have never met a horse that couldn't come back around. I'm not saying that they aren't out there, but I think they are actually "over diagnosed", heck, I have several horses that "would never be decent riding horses" teaching lessons to children now.

Wheeling and kicking is a relatively easy thing to fix. I never leave a problem unsolved when working with a horse. Everything that pops up is fixed quickly and correctly. Every problem is traced back to the source of the problem until there are no holes left in the foundation. The problem isn't in the action, its in the fact that the horse feels that he has to or even can do it.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi Flitter - so how does one fix wheeling and kicking? As I mentioned, he hasn't done it for several months. We coax him to come to us, and don't try to walk up to him if he moves away. He is greedy, and now always comes for food in a bucket (no hand treats - don't ever give them).
Star


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FlitterBug said:


> *I can honestly say that I have never met a horse that couldn't come back around. * I'm not saying that they aren't out there, but I think they are actually "over diagnosed", heck, I have several horses that "would never be decent riding horses" teaching lessons to children now.


You are lucky, FlitterBug! It was a big noise on our local forums couple years ago when Days End Rescue (and they are VERY well known in a area) should put 1 or 2 horses down. They tried for very long time to bring them to the point of being reliable and they just didn't succeed (and I know for sure they send horses to the really good trainers in area).


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## paddlefoot (Jul 9, 2008)

Get the trainer to work with him on your property. Or send him off again and ride him before he comes home. He seems to have serious insecurity issues, and this trainer knows how to deal with him. 
Maybe call the trainer up and ask for exercises that would settle him down??

And for the last question, the kind of person who would want a horse like this is someone who is experienced and can help, and have the financial resources to back it up. Why did you friend want this horse? If they bought him, someone else will likely buy him


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

paddlefoot said:


> Get the trainer to work with him on your property. Or send him off again and ride him before he comes home. He seems to have serious insecurity issues, and this trainer knows how to deal with him.
> Maybe call the trainer up and ask for exercises that would settle him down??
> 
> And for the last question, *the kind of person who would want a horse like this is someone who is experienced and can help, and have the financial resources to back it up. *Why did you friend want this horse? If they bought him, someone else will likely buy him


 
I have to disagree with this. There are plenty of twittering idiots that think "Gerd he's GORGEOUS! I know we can understand each other and bond. He just needs someone to LOVE. Just like Alec and the Black Stallion" *cue music and dreamy eyed look*

People are way more inclined to forgive or overlook bad behavior in beautiful animals even when they know (deep down) that this animal is too much for them. 

Plenty of people buy horses WAY over their heads and dangerous ones at that. Then they screw them up even further because they have no idea what they are doing and don't want (maybe don't have the money) to call in a trainer that can actually help the horse. 

I don't think there are all that many HORSES out there that can't be helped. The problem is that there are far to many PEOPLE out there that can't help a horse like this. And they always think that it can be fixed with "love" not experience. 

IF you can give him to someone who has the ability, money, experience, etc to fix this horse. Then I guess go-ahead with it. As long as he/she is completely aware of his unpredictable nature and isn't all starry eyed about how beautiful he is.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Star Freedom said:


> With regards to letting him get away with things, I have always been a little lenient with horses and dogs, and find that they do come around. Sometimes ignoring problems is better than fighting them. Besides, what would one do with a horse that wheels and kicks out? Can't disciplin them because they are already across the paddock! Each time he has tried to kick, afterwards he cringes and skulks around - he knows he has been bad.


This is the funniest thing I have ever read in my whole freaking life.

I know you (not you specifically, but the person you are). Years of teaching dog obedience I encountered you many times. 

You are the person whose dog is a holey terror but refuses to ever give the dog a boundary or a rule because that would hurt the dogs feelings. But then you can not understand, after you have paid for a session of dog obedience, why your dog still is so horrible.

Kids and animals like structure. Period. Rules are a good thing. 

I will be very sad when you post that he seriously hurt or killed someone. I will not be shocked though. 

When that happens will it be time to enforce some limits and rules and stop making excuses for him?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> It was a big noise on our local forums couple years ago when Days End Rescue (and they are VERY well known in a area) should put 1 or 2 horses down. They tried for very long time to bring them to the point of being reliable and they just didn't succeed (and I know for sure they send horses to the really good trainers in area).


Day's End is an extremely reputable rescue, and if they said the animals were dangerous and untrainable, I believe them.

I don't see why everyone screeches about euthanasia as if it's some horrible, evil thing.

For an animal who is dangerous, regardless of the reason, it's best to put them out of their misery. Their lives aren't happy, and most of them are living in fear.

How many chances are we supposed to give a horse when the animal has proven time and again that it's unpredictable and dangerous to itself as well as others?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well said, as usual SR~!:wink: I actually discussed this thread with my trainer yesterday briefly. His take was that this horse sure sounds dangerous, and it is better to euth it. He said if it is as unpredictable (as the one we currently have!) you may not ever be able to train it, but you can bury it!
(before it kills someone!)

Again-this horse is 4, and is HUGE. He is not going to get smaller, nor forget how big he is!

I read in one post here something to the effect that most times one kick won't kill you.......with a horse this size I would guess the odds are better for him to hit your chest or head.....:? with very little effort.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Maybe I have too much conscience. I could never, ever, EVER hand a horse like this to someone else. I couldn't live with the fact I just pawned off a potential ticking time bomb on to risk hurting or killing another person.


I just sat and read this entire thread, and I get one of two feelings. 


One, based on the initial post and responses of the OP, she is seriously over-dramatising the horse's reactive-ness for the attention factor, and the horse isn't anywhere near as bad as she claims, instead he's just kind of a meathead that she is badly scared by, and he's got her number. A realistic solution, such as euthanasia, or even the potential as bucking stock that would utilize the horses skills, is disregarded. Halfway through the thread, we have a lightbulb moment of "ahhhh, the girth was too tight, THAT'S the real reason he bucked". The unwillingness to admit danger when the horse is striking out from the ground tells me it probably didn't quite happen like she says.

Two, based strictly on the responses of the OP, she might instead be trying to seriously under-emphasize the danger this horse poses, because heck, he's pretty, and by posting him on a board like this, maybe someone will step forward and offer to buy him. She could post him on CL for 1000 dollars with a picture of his "handsome self" and specify he is "not for beginners"....that's pretty typical these days. Maybe she can make a few bucks out of the deal, or even if she can't get money for him then maybe someone will take him off her hands, relieve her of the responsibility of caring for this horse she is clearly not capable enough, experienced enough, or talented enough to handle herself. I always love when the excuse used is "not enough time". Rare is the occasion when all of a sudden you now have less time then was available to you when you purchased the horse. "Not enough guts" could and should replace the term "not enough time".


Regardless of what the reasoning is - it's clear this person doesn't have the ability to fix this horse. Pawning him off on an unsuspecting buyer, throwing him to a rescue, or an any way sending him down the road is an epic fail. You bought this horse, you owe him something. Spend the freaking money and get in a REAL trainer that can help you. The horse is young, very young, and I'd be willing to bet 90% of his antics are normal baby stuff resulting in lack of experienced handling. Not every "bad horse" is an abuse case, and I'd be curious to see how you drew the conclusion the horse has been abused. If you can't hold up your end of the bargain you made when you bought him, and spend the money and effort to fix his problems, then you should have him euthanised, because you are as good as dooming him anyways.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Indyhorse said:


> Maybe I have too much conscience. I could never, ever, EVER hand a horse like this to someone else. I couldn't live with the fact I just pawned off a potential ticking time bomb on to risk hurting or killing another person.


Why not to the trainer, Indy? I do remember the trainer starting horses took one bucking monster in. Not sure what happened eventually, but she knew what she's getting for sure and was OK with it.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Why not to the trainer, Indy? I do remember the trainer starting horses took one bucking monster in. Not sure what happened eventually, but she knew what she's getting for sure and was OK with it.


I should have specified. To a valid trainer who actually knows what he/she is doing, certainly. But someone who claims they are a trainer and actually only read a page they found on google? Not a chance. The horse would be my responsibility unless/until I found someone I was certain was equipped to properly deal with him.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Indyhorse said:


> I should have specified. To a valid trainer who actually knows what he/she is doing, certainly. But someone who claims they are a trainer and actually only read a page they found on google? Not a chance. The horse would be my responsibility unless/until I found someone I was certain was equipped to properly deal with him.


Oh yes, I agree. It's pretty hard to live with the feeling you hurt (or killed) another person. With that being said some people definitely have no problems doing it (talking about some sellers around, not the forum members). :?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Exactly, kitten.

People like that are the, 'out of sight, out of mind, not my problem anymore' types who apparently have no sense of personal responsibility.


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## Star Freedom (Jul 12, 2010)

Hi All:
People's posts here are not polite. I am no longer going to post here. 

I wish readers would go through the thread before stating that they know me, that I'm a bleeding heart who can't handle horses, or that I plan to sell this horse to an unsuspecting buyer. This is NOT my horse. I did not buy him, I am not his trainer, and I advised against the owner's purchase. I stated that I don't have the time and money for this horse. Haven't heard anyone here who does. I can't control what his owner does with the horse, I can only offer advice to the owner. I've already contacted rescues and they won't take him - they only want starving or physically injured horses, not untrained ones. Because this horse was well behaved at the trainers', and did not kick or buck or even not want to be caught, my view is that someone could do something with him.

What I said was "how do you disciplin a horse who has already run off across the paddoc? Haven't heard an answer. And I did not say I don't set limits; I said that I am lenient. Does everyone disciplin a horse for shifting one foot two inches while being groomed? No. Do some people? Yes. Is the latter wrong? Not necessarily.

I advise you all to try to be a little kinder to those who are looking for advice. 

Good by.
Star


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Well that's not entirely true Star. I offered in a PM to help and you turned me down. So don't claim no one has offered. Good luck elsewhere, you're likely going to find the same response at any responsible forum.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Do the owners KNOW the horse was abused? Is it possible that the trainer is an experienced horseman and knows how to handle a horse and the owners have allowed the horse to get away with murder (nearly) and he has taken advantage of the situation? It sounds to me like the horse is lacking any real discipline and leadership so he has taken over and isn't putting up with much from his human slaves. 

There is a very good reason horses end up going to auction to be sold by the pound. Some horses are screwed up or of a certain disposition as to make them not worth the effort to train them. Perhaps this will serve as a lesson to the owners to use thier brains when selecting a horse and not just thier eyeballs. If it were my horse I would send it right back through the auction I bought it at.


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