# When a horse stops working and shows his teeth at you, then what?



## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I woulda laid into him like the wrath of God, that "its ok boo boo "stuff will get you or someone else hurt or killed.
He does that again shake snot out the lead rope and charge right at him smacking the crap out of his chest with the lead line, lunge whip, baseball bat, whatevers handy. Hes testing you this time, to see what he can get away with. Next time he will escalate.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

Personally I think it all depends and it is hard to determine from the description. Was the lip up actually the horse giving you "lip" and on the verge of being dangerous (prepped to lunge at you or some other nasty act) or just his way of saying, excuse the phrase, "nah nah you can't make me" type spoiled behavior. One would require the proverbial come to Jesus moment, the other more of a yeah yeah just move your feet type response, strong, firm and determined type response but not that come to Jesus reaction. Just out of curiosity...the lip was up and showing teeth ...was he shaking his head at the same time? That to me would show aggression. One of my past horses did that routinely but he did it in times of play..he was a bit of a clown at times.

Don't get me wrong, I like Anderson's methods. I've used them and they have worked very well on horses that were both settled and just needed some adjustment to their ground manners to others that were just hellions on four hooves. I tempered the response depending upon their attitudes. If they were being nasty about it they got that come to Jesus moment but if it was just a sticky hoof here or there and a start to being stubborn with no real aggression, my reaction was more of a firm and determined movement to get them to move again.

Obviously your safety comes first..always so if you have even a hint in your gut the horse is moving towards dangerous, you react just the way Joe described. I think in many cases it is more the surprise of you going after the horse that gets them thinking "maybe I better not try that again" more than the action of smacking the chest etc. They aren't expecting the reaction they get.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm taking a slightly different take on this. I'm thinking something happened physically that caused him discomfort and he reacted to it. You mentioned that the clockwise direction is the one he doesn't like and that the next time you lounged him he was OK; chances are he doesn't like clockwise because his body is naturally stiffer on that side or he has an old injury that bothers him at certain times. The old injury could be anything that caused damage to a muscle/ligament/tendon, and while healed, has left it somewhat weaker and prone to camps, soreness, etc. 

I think, under the circumstances, you took the right course of action in moving to another spot and continuing again. The important part of what you did was continue as it showed the horse (and just as importantly you) that you will prevail and you are the one who decides when to finish and head back to the barn.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Anderson's and the other assorted popular trainers methods work best if you actually know then yourself. Groundwork is groundwork, there's no "English" or "western" to it. If the horse knows certain cues then you need to learn them yourself in order to be able to use them. 

The horse was acting bratty. Maybe he caught a whiff if something that smelled funny, maybe he was being aggressive. Without photos we can only guess. When he stops and makes faces or whatever else, you need to insist that he goes forward. If he resists, then you demand it.

It also sounds like you might be scared of this horse.

My recommendation to start would be to learn the methods and cues he knows. If he's been trained CA style then get some of his videos and books and educate yourself. Someone at your barn may have materials to loan you.

(FWIW I do CA style with my horse and we do English trail and Dressage)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> Just out of curiosity...the lip was up and showing teeth ...was he shaking his head at the same time? That to me would show aggression.


He definitely didn't shake his head and he didn't bare his teeth like an angry horse does. It was like he was lifting his lips and I was getting glimpses of his teeth. If he was just tacked up and standing around, it would have looked like he was smelling something bad. But with lunging I just couldn't read what his expression meant. 
It was obvious he didn't want to lunge. I just couldn't tell if he was angry or being bratty.
I was definitely scared for a moment there! I won't lie! But normally I'm very comfortable with this particular horse. That's why I started leasing him. But my fear did die down quickly when I took him to the other side of the ring and just tried again. 
My first reaction is to do what you describe Joe and just lay into him. But I want to be sure that was the best way to handle a normally calm horse who seems like he's blowing up or "getting bigger" if that makes sense. 

My trainer said that he's harder to work on his right side. She said that all horses have a side just like people are either left or right handed. She said that he works easier to his left and will sometimes resist his right. I assume this is correct information, isn't it? He doesn't seem to be in any pain. But it's certainly possible that he's sore on that side. 

I should clarify, I definitely didn't coo him. It was more of a "It's alright" calm voice but I think I was telling myself that more than I was telling him!  I wasn't expecting his reaction like that. But we did work at least another 15 minutes after that. Then I called it quits. I wanted to end on a high note. 

If I had to guess, I think this horse is used to a person being heavy handed and hard on him. He belonged to a man before he came to the barn and the guys I know who do roping aren't exactly soft on their horses. And I think I need to ramp up my commands on him. It's certainly possible I'm being too soft with him and he's realizing that.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Also I'm definitely going to get the Clinton Anderson dvds. They were pretty expensive so I was looking on ebay. I do watch his show and I enjoy it. But I remember reading a thread a while back where a few people said his methods don't work on all horses and they didn't work well on English horses. I'm not exactly sure what they meant by that as it was an old thread but it stuck in my head. 
I do like him and I think he's good for someone who is still new-ish to horses like me. (barely 3 years) He doesn't take crap from horses, that's for sure!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_*This looked like a horse who was smelling something bad. You know that look when their lip is turning up.

*_sounds like a horse that is doing the flemin gesture. (I think that's what it's caled). He is using a special scent organ in his mouth to catch the scent of a mare in heat. you still might need to get his attention off of that and back onto you, but from your description, it's more a matter of his mind wandering than him making an outright aggressive threat gesture to you.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I have to agree that without actually seeing what the horse did, we can only guess what his intentions were. Was his tail swishing? Ears pinned? Did he start pawing? Usually there other signs saying what his intentions are. 

My wife's horse likes to "smile" at in opportune times. He figured out that she thought it was cute and he could stop working. He's part Arab and too smart for his own good. 

Back to your horse. It just could have been that he caught a whiff of a mare in heat. It doesn't really sound like he was showing his teeth. I've never seen a horse raise their lip to show teeth as a warning. Usually, they will open their mouth as to bite. Dogs raise their lip to show teeth but I don't think horses do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Arching neck, then the flehmen means a sharp pain, not necessarily lasting long. Flehmen can be a sign of pain, I've seen it with colicky horses. 
So, I'd probably have him, especially with him having been a roping horse, checked out by a chiropractor or massage therapist, before thinking about harsher measures.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I didn't realize until recently that the lifting of the lip was called Flehems. I had just read that not too long ago. I've seen horses do it at random times. Like there is one horse at the barn who likes to paw his food dish until it flips over and then he'll do the lip thing. Another horse there will turn her lip up if you offer her watermelon or some food she hates. She also turns her lip if you spray fly spray or put on some kind of stinky salve. 
Then I've seen a couple of horses bare their teeth and lunge. I remember at the one barn where I used to live there was a horse who'd pin his ears and bare his teeth if you walked past his stall when he was eating. It was really obvious that it was total aggression on his part.

Yesterday I was just confused and kind of frightened for the moment. There was no doubt brattiness and unwillingness involved. The rolkur-like thing he was doing with his neck, while looked pretty, was the beginning of him starting to slow down and balk. Then when I tried to make him go again was when he did the lip thing. He didn't paw or pin his ears. That I would have been able to read. 
He did however, stomp hard a few times around the lunge and there was some tail swishing going on. So I know he wasn't pleased to be working. 

usandpets, that is cute that your wife's horse does that and I'd feel better if I knew it was a "nah nah" thing like tlking1 mentioned and that it wasn't aggression.

Either way, I will definitely take a firmer hand on him next time.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Arching neck, then the flehmen means a sharp pain, not necessarily lasting long. Flehmen can be a sign of pain, I've seen it with colicky horses.
> So, I'd probably have him, especially with him having been a roping horse, checked out by a chiropractor or massage therapist, before thinking about harsher measures.


Really? I didn't know that. :-( I know that he just had his vaccinations earlier in the week but my trainer said he was good to go. Do you think that it could have been the vaccination site? 
I will definitely ask my trainer about getting him checked. I know she's going to say he's fine and he was testing me. And I'm sure he was. But if there was pain involved that could explain that weird reaction of the neck and lip.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

If he was stomping, slinging his head from side to side, and pawing, it's him expressing his displeasure about working, either from just pure laziness and his belief that you cannot move his feet if he really gets balky, or from him saying "going this direction hurts me somewhere".


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> If he was stomping, slinging his head from side to side, and pawing, it's him expressing his displeasure about working, either from just pure laziness and his belief that you cannot move his feet if he really gets balky, or from him saying "going this direction hurts me somewhere".


Really thinking about it, I think it's a combination of all three of those. I know he can be lazy. He's not a high energy horse at all. He's got some spunk but overall he's pretty calm and laid back. He also likes to test me now and again and lunging is something that he doesn't do often. But he may have also been pain from the shots. Or pain from something else. :?

Well I'm going to ask my trainer about checking his neck and back. If he was my horse, I'd absolutely get him vet checked and call a chiro just to be sure. But I will still get tougher on him. I need to get those CA dvds.

Thank you all for helping me brainstorm here. I appreciate it!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Heelsdown said:


> Really? I didn't know that. :-( I know that he just had his vaccinations earlier in the week but my trainer said he was good to go. Do you think that it could have been the vaccination site?
> I will definitely ask my trainer about getting him checked. I know she's going to say he's fine and he was testing me. And I'm sure he was. But if there was pain involved that could explain that weird reaction of the neck and lip.


I don't think it's from the shot, but it's possible. I think it's a musculo-skeletal thing. Roping can be quite hard on them.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

He may also be responding to a mare in heat as that is typical gesturing. He may have been gelded late. When you lunge him keep it to a couple of circles each direction, more of a warm up and keep it to walking and trotting. It isn't imperative that you lunge him if you do walking and trotting for 10 or so minutes prior to serious work. Do not treat him like a toddler by petting him to soothe him as he sees that as a reward for his unwanted actions. Straighten your shoulders, walk like a soldier and just continue on. Don't talk to him, to the horse it is just noise. No "poor baby" attitude.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

If you want to view CA videos but don't want to spend a lot of money, check out Giddyupflix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

He just lifted his lip but didn't do anything wrong (other than stop)?
Use whip to tell him to move forward - he's just testing you. The teeth mean nothing unless he is flattening his ears to his head. 

Have you had a horse chiropractor look at him? Sounds like he may need adjusting to make the one side (direction) easier for him. It may be an uncomfortable/pain issue so punishing him is NOT the way to go.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

tiffany thanks for the tip! I definitely will check that out!

Valentina yes after the neck thing, he just stopped and did the lip thing. 

I'm definitely going to have a chiro look at him. I doubt my trainer will mind. She'll just say it's a waste of money but really if I'm going to be working with this horse and possibly buying him, it's worth it to rule out any pain.

But I will still be a little tougher on him. I'm sure he wasn't allowed to get away with stuff before he came to this barn and now he's testing the waters. Horses are so smart that way I'm seeing more and more.


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