# Dressage vs. Equitation



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

What specifically are you wanting to know? Do you have pictures of yourself riding? What is your overall goal? What level do you want to ride at? 

What is your current perception of the difference between equitation and dressage, so I can give some better feedback.

This is a bit of what I think of with equitation









low level dressage 









Dressage is graded primarily on effect vs position. How well the horse goes, accuracy, etc. You are expected to ride accurate figures, have a higher degree of throughness, true acceptance of contact, true engagement from the hind end connecting to the bridle. The equitation horses aren't particularly through or really engaged from behind or really over their back. They're just there. They don't want them deep and they don't have to have the same degree of throughness because they never have to prepare for a sequence of movements, so the expectation is different and the degree of expectation and timing of aids is higher. The shorter the reins, the more skilled and better timing the rider has to have to maintain relaxation and throughness. As well as the horse needs to be stronger to maintain it.
I'm being vague until I know specifically what you want to know.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks,
I'm just looking for some of the differences, not really about me or my horse in particular. 



In reference to the videos you posted, I wouldn't consider the AQHA one what I consider equitation, it looks more like pleasure or undersaddle. It's close, but I wouldn't be caught doing a half seat in an equitation class unless they asked for a hand gallop. Maybe rules have changed in that over the past few years. Her stirrups look like jumping length more than flat equitation length to me. That could be an east coast west coast difference. 

The ones in the morgan class look a little more as what I would expect, but some of their horses seem a little too into the bit, which again might be a breed thing. When I think of hunt seat equitation I think of the maclay finals on the east coast, but they do tend to ride a little differently than we do on the west coast. 



I would expect a good equitation horse to go well and carry the rider so that the rider can show off. I would also expect a good equitation horse to really move up to the bit and be round as it makes it easier and smoother for the rider to sit, and so they look better. An equitation horse could have more action but I would expect less movement through the back so the rider can sit nicely without having to move too much, and a reduction of bouncy hands. 



How does riding in a deeper seat change how the horse moves in dressage? In some western riding you sit back and your horse stops, and in jumpers you sit back and your horse moves in front of you to go more forward.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Filou said:


> How does riding in a deeper seat change how the horse moves in dressage? In some western riding you sit back and your horse stops, and in jumpers you sit back and your horse moves in front of you to go more forward.



Depends on what else you are doing...Dressage is a dance with your horse, and a constant conversation, carried out with the smallest of aids, that many might miss.


I can sit deep, wrap my legs around her and ask her to collect and shorten, or I can sit deep, apply a long leg and give more, and she will lengthen, I can sit deep and tickle the reins, as a half halt "heads up we are about to do something" 



I can sit deep and tickle the reins, as a half halt "come back to me a little balance"


So it's hard to answer your question.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

A deep seat is not necessarily a heavy seat, it's a seat that allows the rider to fully become part of the horse's back and improve the quality of gaits. I find posting improves rhythm and tempo but to actually really improve the quality of gaits and improve sit, flexibility and reach a deep seat, sitting is better (once the horse has progressed to that point). The deep seat allows for finer communication and really allows the rider to engage the core and create more lift in the back. A lot of people don't understand sitting trot at all, a stiller seat is not a better seat. A still seat most often will hollow out the back and stop the movement of the horse. You don't want a loud seat but there should be movement in the hip, Id MUCH MUCH rather see hip movement than a still seat with still legs. In a sitting trot legs arent perfectly still but not swinging madly. If the hands are bouncing then that is a sign the rider isn't supple in their hip and is carrying too much tension and likely has a weak core and back.

Being round and over the back doesn't necessarily make a horse smoother. All my horses were MUCH springier the more they moved over their back, the more swing they had the more power they developed. I had one horse who was smooth as silk with his back disengaged but get him using himself and he was like being catapulted into the rafters every stride. Same with my ottb, the better he moves, the more swing he develops and the more suspension he has the springier and more bouncy his gaits become. 

Correctly trained dressage horses follow the riders position and body, as well as really respond to seat and core aids. The higher up a person rides or a horse is trained, the more direct and precise the aiding system needs to be.

The position is to be in balance with the horse based on the movements executed. One might sit a hair back in a lengthening or extension to be over the horse's point of balance. 

Absolutely beautiful seat, hands and rider


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

How would you compare/contrast what the riders are doing in the eq flat class video you linked in post 5 to what a horse would do in dressage? I see them using subtle cues, having forward impulsion, doing collection and extension, lateral movements etc. 

How would those movements be different for an eq horse versus a dressage horse? How would they be different for the rider? 

I personally tend to ride with lighter hands, shorter reins with give through my elbows, and do quite a bit with my hips/seat and leg to request certain things such as lateral movements, bending, etc. Depending on the level of the horse, I can add in more subtle ques like were mentioned, a tiny squeeze on the rein, and lowering a hip a tiny bit to let him know we are about to canter, for example. If we had to do an extended sitting trot, I would sit back and try to absorb as much of the force as I could in my hips/abs to keep my shoulders still. 

How would this process be different if I were to train a horse for dressage rather than for equitation?


The most obvious difference I see if the action of the horses legs. From what I understand that would come from cavaletti work or piaffe / Spanish walk training, though sometimes the horse could give this action without being trained in it explicitly. Is that correct? I would say we don't do much of in equitation. 



Also, totally off topic, but what is that magical looking footing in that London Olympia arena O:! It leaves no tracks!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Filou said:


> How would this process be different if I were to train a horse for dressage rather than for equitation?



You would not be training a horse for dressage if you lack the understanding of what it actually is surely? 



It helps if either you or the horse knows about the discipline when you start, and then if both of you have a trainer to help you figure all this stuff out, then so much the better.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

It depends on what your goals are. If you're aiming to only show training or 1st level it may not necessarily be that different. 

But a lot of the differences, I feel are in the details and they are qualities that can be very hard to describe. I'll give an example my horse is very hard to ride and I've had quite a few people who were pretty sure they could ride him and couldn't even trot on him. They saw me walk, trot, canter, half pass, single change, shoulder in, haunches in, half steps, medium and collected and thought oh he's easy and couldn't even trot on him. He flat out refused to be ridden and did whatever he wanted. I think they didn't have a clue that could happen. The riders themselves didn't do anything wrong but mentally they were not able to project their thoughts or influence his mind and that quality you flat out cant explain to someone. But very few horses are like mine. You need to be VERY strong but very quick to release pressure, your timing has to be perfect. Absolutely cannot be held or he will grab the bit, bear down and bolt. He's something that someone has to be a pro to ride. It's very hard to explain because a lot of people have no clue what I mean, unless they sit on a horse like him. But my point in mentioning a horse like mine is that it's in details that you can't always describe. It's like trying to describe the color orange to a person who has never seen color.

How dressage changes are ridden is different than hunter or equitation changes. 

Cavaletti is a good exercise but it isnt how you get "sit." Sit come from development and timing and sequence of aids. It begins with transitions, walk-trot, trot-walk, etc. And then it is in your body that you "sit the croup down" and allow the shoulder to come up. Then there is also things in the canter to create a better canter and improve the rhythm and overall quality. There are a lot of pros who are useless at improving gaits. But it is in the seat, you don't sit harder into the saddle or grid but you almost think of exaggerating the upswing of the canter inviting the shoulders up while you sit the croup down and half halt. Half halt comes from the core, closing of thighs or closing of fingers. It's really hard to explain. But it's like you close fingers, hold core, sit the croup down and soften the fingers. I hold the reins primarily between my index finger and thumb and when I apply pressure I close my fingers and engage my core and when I feel the croup lower, I soften but I also ask for a lateral movement so I don't lose the suppleness and don't create tension. I use shoulder in to teach the connection between inside leg and outside rein. I also use haunches in to really teach the horse to come around and how to connect their body and round their rib cage, each exercise has a purpose. It is rarely to simply school movements. I like half pass because it greatly improves the degree of throughness. turn on the haunches and even roll backs I'll use to teach a horse to move off the outside rein and learn not to drift through the outside shoulder. I'll use turn on the forehand to engage the hind end better and connect the inside hind more clearly to the outside rein. Anytime I take a step forward a horse doesn't understand, I take a few steps back to make it clear.

If I have a horse that goes out through the outside rein, I will often do a counter flex shoulder in with a loop in my inside rein. Or I'll ask them to leg yield off my outside aids. then keep my outside rein and use my inside leg to get the inside bend. I've had students pet with the inside rein because I feel a lot of riders over use the inside rein and don't use enough outside rein or inside leg but it's a balance, not a hold. 

My horse is so sensitive I flat out couldn't balance him going right today until I changed the position of my sternum. He is that sensitive to tiny details like that. During winter he's like riding a saddlebred park horse with the fireworks and fire extinguishers going off, so it's a lot of core and using your figures and circles. A lot of the time when he rushes, I use circles to cross his legs and slow him down. If he's mentally hot then we walk until he calms, if it's he's amped up and just being hot and tense then we use circles, serpentines and just keep his brain busy, lots of laterals to get him to soften and relax. 

There is also a way of making movement from the seat and timing of aids. With fancy warmbloods I find it MUCH easier to do what I call "auction" gaits and really show how big, expressive and powerful they are with my ottb I have to be very careful or he'll lose his rhythm at the trot. But for example for a medium trot we often sit a hair longer in the air like 2 counts in the air, 1 count in the saddle to create a loftier pace. And sit 2 counts, up 1 count for a smaller pace. 

Spanish walk is more about leg awareness and it's sort of trick training, I taught my horse the spanish walk to help him have more control of his shoulders and legs. I'm still improving the quality of it where he can fully extend one leg and hold it but it's a process. Piaffe is built from trot and developing collected trot and coming back to half steps. So how much can you sit and keep active behind then send them on out of it to a medium, so they don't lose activity behind but basically all dressage riders continue to take lessons and work with trainers and coaches. The top riders in the world all have coaches and trainers. If you're serious about getting into dressage, definitely work with a trainer because a lot of the times what "seems" correct isnt' and what is counter intuitive is correct and we don't always know our bad habits because we only know to the extent of what we've experienced.

It's hard for me to say how I'd train a dressage horse differently than an equitation horse because I've only produced dressage horses. I've started horses in saddle seat, reining, eventing, hunters, etc but didn't produce them.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

I assume your ultimate goal is to show. 

With that said, I would encourage you to watch and attend local shows in your area. Schooling shows and non - even if you're just watching! Watch what the judge asks for in each class. Some of the local shows in my area have pattern equitation classes which really mimic a basic, "beginner" dressage test. In a hunt seat saddle, usually. I think we even have dressage suitability classes at one of our local shows that is actually a rail class but looks for dressage potential in the horses.

We also have schooling dressage shows. Some of the classes are great for beginners. You can do a training test and don't even have to canter in some of the classes.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you're aiming only at the lower levels in dressage then you'd see little difference.
When you go up through the levels in Dressage compared to the higher levels of Equitation then the difference becomes pretty huge
The horses in this Equitation class in the top video I've posted wouldn't look out of place in the lower levels of dressage performing as they are but unless they could pull together a lot more impulsion to contain the energy and thus get some real elevation they'd get nowhere. The purpose bred dressage horses are born with natural elevation - it just makes the job a lot easier
They move nicely and have lovely manners but look to be more in self carriage than in true collection. A few do appear heavy on the forehand which is a sign that they're not pushing forwards and upwards the way a dressage horse does.
The horses in the top video compare well with a horse working at Prelim level (UK dressage) - next video down - but when you move to the third video of a horse at Prix St George level the difference is very apparent


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I think these last posts really help narrow it down for me. 

DanteDressageNerd- I understand what you are saying. It's similar to riding an hunter under saddle horse where the show is judged on the horse's movement. When showing those horses for the sale barn I would have to ride them in a way to show off their movements best. For me that meant lengthening their stride with my seat (as the reins are loopy), so I would slowly ease the horse into a longer stride by staying in the air a fraction of a second longer, and sitting a fraction of a second longer. This also included a soft sit at the post, where I would sit super lightly, to the point where I'm not sure I'd even call it sitting because just my pants would touch the saddle and not my body. Also giving the horse little bumps on the bit now and then to ask to stretch into the bit with the nose forward and out. These all improved the horses movements for those under saddle classes. 

There are times where my horse will offer me that very lofty trot, or will show it in freework, but he is still fairly unfit and can't maintain it. He is level across the withers and croup as well. I've ridden a few dressage horses that feel like they are going up stairs as you ride them. I'm sure this can be trained or enhanced to some degree, as you said by positioning your body in a way to allow for the space for that movement, and then asking the horse to try for it, but it also sounds like a lot of the time that's something that's been bred into them!



I actually was able to dig up my dressage scores from 2012-2013!
This were all 1st level tests

8th with (62.7027%), 7th with (63.3870%), 7th with (58.4%)
In regards to showing, could I show down a level since I've already shown in first level? In equitation we couldn't show down once we entered a certain level. In this case, my horse isn't capable of 1st level, he finally just started giving me a mild canter to work off of and it will be a while before I even try to collect it. 



Horseylover1_1- I don't know that I necessarily want to show for wins, but might be interested just for fun at this point, and to get the horse some experience. He is pretty bottom of the barrel as far as talent goes, but I can take him along as far as he wants to go. In owning this horse I wanted to give him a safe and healthy home since he was neglected previously. In bringing him along and finishing him, I just want to have fun for as long as he is willing to keep at it for me! 



jaydee- I see little difference between the eq riders and the lower level dressage riders other than what you point out with the impulsion and heavy on the forehand. I do see a big difference in the upper levels as you say. Thank you!


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I'd say accuracy and quality of movements are judged higher than movement. The lower levels emphasize movement but at the higher levels it's execution of movements which is why a lot of the times the horses you see at the GP aren't nearly as flashy or large of movers as what you see winning the lower levels or young horse classes. The "type" of movers that succeed at the GP are not the same that succeed at the young horse classes. 

You don't have to watch all these but here is a sample.





























Education samples





























I feel with sit, finding a horse who is purpose bred and naturally has it saves a good year of training. But collection is trained and developed, though I have found a lot of foreign riders can't develop true collection in a horse, especially not one that isn't purpose bred. A GP horse is hard to find. It's not just about talent, it's about a horse with the right sort of mind, as well as something that can stay sound at that level and can do the movements well. A fabulous mover doesn't mean they can do the movements well or use themselves with good technique or correctly. I've seen quite a few horses trained to GP incorrectly that would be unsound if correct because those horses can't sit to the degree necessary or execute the movements without in a way faking them. 

I used to take lessons on a horse who I schooled PSG-I1 on and he wasn't able to truly sit or collect. He just couldn't do it but he could do the movements accurately. He was great for lessons because he was not an easy horse. He was honest but you had to really earn and ride him well to get anything from. Had to be much more mindful to keep him in rhythm. His canter easily turned into a bunny hop if not right, so no changes or pirouette if not mindfully ridden. I learned a TON every lesson. Right half pass on him was very hard, I had to learn all sorts of tricks to improve the quality of the half pass because he had an old injury. 

My ottb, he can sit like nobodies business. I cant wait for his piaffe and passage work. I think he will rock the GP but I think he'd do quite poorly at training and 1st level because he doesn't move like they want to see. He's too uphill. He isn't naturally very supple, he's not a relaxed, floaty mover. He doesn't really track up at the trot, never really has. But he has a talent for collection and an incredible amount of power. I've ridden well bred 18h+ wbs who didn't have half his power. Tempi changes, pirouettes and piaffe-passage will be very easy for him. But a rider really has to know what they're doing on him or all they'll have is a horse who grabs the bit, takes control and bolts or will just stand in the center of the arena and refuse to work. What succeeds at the lower levels won't necessarily succeed at the higher levels and vice versa. I like a VERY VERY hot, sensitive horse with an active thinking and independent mind with an overachiever temperament


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm loving how in the first video the judge makes comments on the horses movements. I will have fun watching those and looking for the differences between the different types. 

One of the things that all makes me think of is how some jumping horses are lazy over small jumps are do better with bigger jumps as they get more careful, and some horses are more careful at smaller jumps and are more suited for that level. They can both jump, but they are better suited to different skill levels. 



I have restarted a handful of ottbs, if it's hot out, I like the hot ones, they don't get too crazy, and I hate to be working so hard to ride the lazy ones on a hot day... If it's cold, I like the lazys, I don't want to deal with the hot ones getting extra nuts! 

I can see how the mind would really make a big difference going up in the levels, as well as the athletic ability. I mean, we all want that smart horse that seems like it was born knowing how to do it all, but there's also something fun and challenging about getting a less interested horse engaged. I think if I'm training the horse for someone I want the smart one to make the job easy, and if it's my own, I want the slower one cause it's more rewarding and you get that relationship. 


In the hunter riding if we had a horse that was heavy on the forehand we would typically stop them, back up and have them lift their head, do lateral work, turn on haunches, encouraging good transitions, etc. Is the process similar for dressage? How could I really encourage the horse to want to carry it's self naturally with all that impulsion? Are some of those horses built more uphill which allows that to be easier for them?


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

It depends. I actually find especially smart horses harder to ride and train than horses that are sort of dumb or smart enough. Dumb ones usually make the best amateur horses and they might take longer to train but they also usually aren't the type of horses who are smart enough to figure out ways around work or take too much advantage of their riders. The smart ones are the ones who exploit riders and make it difficult for their amateur riders. A lot of people, even pros cant ride especially smart or independent minded horses. It's interesting some horses need a professional rider or they're not happy, others LOVE having amateur riders who don't ask as much from them, others love having beginners who don't ask anything from them. It just depends on the horse. My ottb is a professional's ride, if he doesn't respect the rider or the rider can't win his mind, he flat out refuses to be ridden. He thinks for himself and is too smart for his own good. For my trainer and myself, not a problem. Cannot be dominated or made to do anything. But I've put bronze and silver medalists on him who are good riders and Wonder fully exploits whatever holes he finds or will stand in the center and refuse to be ridden or grab the bit and bolt. A horse that smart causes problems if the brain isnt occupied. When I was in Denmark he drug an international groom who weighed over 200lbs about 40 or 50ft down the aisle. He'd get loose from a good handler and run around, climb walls, etc. A horse like that NEEDS a job, for a while it was 2hrs a day 6 days a week. Smart horses are more often problem horses than the less intelligent ones. The less intelligent ones can't figure out the evasions or think as fast. They tend to be more simple, straight forward rides if they're not super smart. Dante, my quarab was very smart and he was another problem child, all the super duper smart ones I've known have been problem children but they're my favorites.

If a horse is on the forehand, transitions, laterals, etc are helpful, but it's in conjunction with the core seat half halt which I feel a horse and rider figures out by doing a lot of transitions and half transitions. Half transitions are the way to the half halt. So it's like half halt, hold core, close thigh, close fingers, leg and soften finger, relax thigh and core. The release is as important as the aid, nothing is held. Impulsion can be developed by transitions, shortening to lengthening. Lengthening on the short sides, shortening on the long sides on a hot horse and vice versa on something behind the leg. Lots of serpentines, preparing for changes of bend with a few lateral steps. Turn on the forehand feeling into the turns can help a lot. I also use it to create better rhythm for horses who have a poor canter rhythm and counter canter. I've ridden a lot of horses I've had to fix the canter and it shocks me, in Europe many pro riders were so used to riding such quality horses they didn't have a clue how to fix canter rhythm or how to create movement. They sort of just held, posed and made things happen but they had quality enough horses to ride their whole career they could get away with it. I can create suspension in the trot over time, some have it naturally. It's more so in my core and seat and it's a feeling I project to the horse and they read from me, it's hard to explain as it is something that took me years to really learn. Developing a dressage horses takes years and years of careful progression. To be honest there are days I go out and just hack out up and down hills, we do trot sets and a little galloping as if I were conditioning an event horse. Other days we'll do more mental type arena work like laterals, improving reaction to aids and movements, other days it's simple walk, trot, canter, medium and shorten gaits, few half steps with emphasis on long and low, lots of bending lines, shallow loops, serpentines and changes of direction for suppling and relaxation. Other days it's emphasis on collection, so a few minutes of the maximum degree of collection they can give me, then walk on the buckle. Sometimes we do polls and cavaletti or a little jumping (my horse HATES jumping) but he'll do it if I ask. Trails are good. Variety is necessary imo for a work program. I don't like drilling if I can avoid it.

Too uphill is actually a thing, a horse can be too uphill. My ottb is too uphill meaning it's hard to get his back softer and create relaxation and suppleness in his body. He also doesn't over track at the trot, so long and low type work is actually harder for him than collected work but he needs it to soften his muscle and learn to relax and become more supple in his work. He's actually JUST started to get some swing and suspension in his trot but in a few years it will be far better. Some horses have natural ability to sit, some have the potential to sit and some simply can't a well bred wp horse can't sit in the dressage sense.


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