# Dapple grey/grey question



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

My bay filly's sire was a dapple grey shire.
Her mare is a black/blue roan.
How come the filly is bay and not greying out? She's a yearling now, no signs of greying at all!


Photos of mare and foal - photos of sire are on my p/c, I'll post later


----------



## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

Although one parent must be grey for the resulting foal to be grey, it does not guarantee that the foal will be grey. Looks like your filly has inherited her color from her dam line, not the sire. There are a whole bunch of color genetic experts on this forum who can explain the genetics of color in a lot more detail than I.
I'm sure they'll show up shortly.


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks for that! For some reason I thought all offspring from a grey parent ended up being grey! Thought maybe there was a difference in a dappled grey and a grey grey


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Also, mare had a foal by same sire who was also a bay. So I'm guessing Martha is little miss dominant in the genes department?!


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As the shire sire has non gray offspring he only has one copy of the gene. Gray is not his base color - it is a depigmentation of his base color which may have been bay or black. As you said the dam was black that makes bay his base as your horse had to get the agouti from somewhere unless the horse in the pics is a faded black. For some reason the pics aren't clear. With a roan dam that has has non roan offspring she only has one copy of roan to pass. You had a 50/50 chance of getting gray from the sire and a 50/50 chance of roan from the dam. You could have also ended up with both roan and gray. Dappling is an intermediate stage of graying and not all horses that are gray will dapple from the gray. It is caused by darker base color ringing areas of hair that is heavier with white. Horses can also dapple with or without the gray gene from good condition. Both roan and gray will show with only one copy of the gene but for it to be guaranteed to be passed from parent to offspring one of the parents had to have two copies meaning one would automatically be passed. I think I am seeing white hairs in the second pic so it may be that roan was passed.


----------



## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

If you're wondering where the bay has come from, is it possible that the sire was bay before greying out? If his 'base colour' was bay then he could've just passed on the bay without the grey over the top.
As far as dappled grey and grey-grey go, a dappled grey is just a grey horse that hasn't completely greyed out yet. All dapple greys will turn grey-grey eventually, but not all grey-greys were once dappled grey if you see what I mean


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

So I've been told that the mare is a black but I think she is blue roan simply because she has brown marks on her mussel. 
I'm bringing her home tomorrow so will take some better photos 


Thanks for clearing it up about the greys! I honestly thought dappled was a different colour all together!


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Now I see it is two different horses. Black clyde faded and roaning in second pic and last is the foal that does look to be bay with a lot of fading as well. A brown mark on her muzzle does not make her blue roan - the white hairs across her body would. The brown on the muzzle and in the soft points would mean brown/bay with roaning. It would also mean baby could have gotten agouti from the mother.


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

The first 2 photos are the same mare  the foal is her second foal


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

So she's brown? Do I need to start another thread on her?!  I had a thread on her and the general consensus was she was black. However, a friend of mine has a blue roan and Martha looks the same colour....
Horses are such problems


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The dam seems like a brown with roaning to me. The filly seems too light to be brown, more of a bay, but I guess she could be a brown with fading. 

Dappling is just a phase some grays go through as they change ultimately to solid white in appearance. I think age five to eight is when most grays are the most dappled.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Can you link that thread? I realized after the first post the top two were the same horse. I see a faded black with roaning which would mean the sire is bay (black based with agouti). Because I can't see the other side of the muzzle well and there appears to be some cinnamon coloring there I say bay is possible but I would expect more of her soft points to be the same.


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm wondering if the mare is sabino instead of roan. Does she have a white belly spot on her left side in the girth area (underneath between her legs)?


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sabino is also a possibility. Not uncommon in Clydes or Shires.


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Yup she has a tummy splodge. Someone did say sabino! 
I'll go find the thread hang on


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/what-colour-clyde-649041/
Here we go!


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

The foal is positively bay, a dark one now she is in her winter fluff. She has black points. So maybe the sire was a bay before greying? I will ask the breeder!


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I had replied to that that I thought faded black so I'll stick with that. better pics of her muzzle in winter would tell you. If that one side at the mouth is cinnamon then I'd change my mind especially since she wears a cover up to prevent burning. Color testing isn't all that expensive and it would tell you for sure. Let us know what the breeder says about the sire. They sure are pretty.


----------



## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

Your mare is black (or a slim possibility of Brown, it's hard to tell with the white covering her face but due to her clipped picture being such a rich black I think she's black), she is not blue roan.  Clydesdales are not supposed to carry the roan gene, the white hairs in her coat are very common in Clydesdales and it's thought to be a product of their particular type of Sabino which also causes the flashy white legs and face. Clydes with very heavy 'roaning' white hairs are sometimes called 'roan' but they're not a product of the actual roan gene, just the Sabino being a tricky little mimic.

Blue Roan1
Blue Roan2
As you can see in true roans the face is left pure black while the roaning shows up sharply behind the face and goes down to the legs.


As an aside the coat bleaching she gets during summer can be helped or reversed by giving her the right supplements, this article has information on it: Coat Bleaching
And I know several people on the forum have tried various companies so if you want to make a thread about it I'm sure they could give you advice.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Not much to add besides that the sire could also have been a chestnut. That would still allow him to pass on the agouti, and the foal would get her black copiy from the dam.


----------



## Cascading River (May 13, 2016)

What was the sires base color? He could be bay.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It is rare for a shire to be chestnut, I think the Op was going to inquire with the breeder. I'd love to see pics of the sire.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The mare could be brown (judging from the cinnamon coloring on her muzzle in the winter pic). If that's true, then the foal coloring could have come from her as well.

A gray horse is only guaranteed to produce a gray horse if they are homozygous for gray (G/G). If they are heterozygous (G/g), then they only have a 50% chance of producing gray foals. Since gray can cover any and every color, there is really no way to know for certain the sire's color without testing him but bay/black are most common in shires so that's a good probability.

One or both parents carried agouti (causes bay and brown) because that gorgeous foal is certainly brown.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Mama sure looks like black/sabino to me , she is defineately not blue roan. Baby got the A or At gene from daddy whatever color he originally was. This is what a blue roan looks like


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

EquineBovine said:


> Thanks for that! For some reason I thought all offspring from a grey parent ended up being grey! Thought maybe there was a difference in a dappled grey and a grey grey


Each parent contributes one gene, so unless a grey horse is homozygous for grey, he has a 50/50 chance of passing on his non grey gene


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

That's the only photo I have of the sire. Those photos are before I got them


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Oh, that bottom one is with me


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

From that I'd say he is not chestnut. If smrobs saw the cinnamon as well maybe I am not seeing things. Do you have pics of her muzzle that show that any better?


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

How's that? 
Breeder said the sire has always been grey so no help there sorry.


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm not a color expert. I read all of the replies and thought they were interesting.

If you showed me a picture of this horse with no input and asked me what color she is, I'd say she is a very pretty Brown. 

I'm basing that on the light coloring around her muzzle and the light areas in her "arm pits" for lack of a better term. 

The white flecking in her coat is interesting. I'm not seeing enough black in her ears, mane and tail to say Bay. Chestnut is a possibility, but I haven't seen many that have lightened areas in certain spots. If her skin is very light in those areas it could explain it, otherwise it reinforces my thought she is Brown.

Very pretty horse in any case.


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I'm not fussed either way, I've just never had a horse this colour  I love my bays!


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

After seeing her muzzle I would say that your mare is probably brown as well. They are all very pretty, I love bays too.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bay and Brown are both agouti modifiers. Some browns can look black they are so dark with only the telltale cinnamon muzzle, soft points and under eye mark especially in winter. Add fade and it makes it hard to tell if it is a bleached out/sweat marked black or a true brown. With how dark the sire is in between the dapples and the color at his knees he was bay or black. I'd say likely bay as the baby looks bay and bay is dominant over brown. It may be that she sheds out and you find she is brown as well though.


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks guys! 
The dam is looking quiet brown now as we head into winter. I'm going to be clipping her out again as she sweats like mad during work. Her butt cheeks are cinnamon coloured now so yeah, probs a dark brown. I'm certain the foal is a bay due to her black points


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This link might help. I would have said that she has enough white flecks in her coat to call her a roan - that's if I'm looking at the right picture.
What is a Roan? - American Roan Horse Association


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Some one did say Clydesdales can't be roan. The flecks are from sabino colouring?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The British Clydesdale breed society includes roan as one of its colours but there still isn't a mutation identified so no test for the gene so in that breed its recognized just as a colour type by the breed society
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/Roan.php
Breed History - The Clydesdale Horse Society
You could have her tested for the sabino gene if you're really keen to know
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/sabino1.php


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bay and brown both have black points. They are both an expression of agouti. There are three expressions of agouti. There is wild bay which restricts the black to the minimum. They will have the black tipped ears but the black on the legs is not solid and to the hock. I have seen some say it is kept at the ankle only on the leg but I have seen other resources say that the red extends down the sides and inside of the leg with black that can cover the front of the knee and back of the hock. There is standard bay with the black tipped ears and and black stockings and red body. The brown will have the same black tipped ears, black stockings and red body with cinnamon points that may or may not be visible in summer coats but will be there when the winter coat comes in. Brown will have the cinnamon coloring at the muzzle, sometimes under the eye and in the soft points. Some browns look very "bay" (reddish) in their summer coats and it is only in winter that you see the telltale cinnamon added in. There is a thread called Bad A** Brown that is worth looking up as it shows many of the variations you see. A friend has a mare that is extreme in that she looks black all summer(no fade) and come winter she has the cinnamon muzzle, under eye and soft points. Now her baby is the same except her "black" fades and she keeps the cinnamon all year. When she dapples she looks like a reverse giraffe with her markings. They are the darkest expression of brown I have seen.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/bay-not-modifier-604794/
This is a great thread that explains Bay
and here is the other thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/badass-brown-92038/


----------



## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks heaps!


----------

