# my horse refuses to turn the way I ask



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Have you tried lunging for respect? 

When a horse refuses to move when being led, you give them a chance to move by pulling on the rope once, but if they ignore that, you move their feet.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Are you turning her with your legs at all? It sounds like you are pulling her head around, but since there is no pressure from your legs, she can still go wherever she wants - albeit crooked.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Is this your horse, a leased horse or a school horse? Are you taking lessons on this horse?


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

Are you using the same tack that the owner uses? Some horses (I ride one) are extremely picky with and sensitive with the tack you use on them. If the gelding I ride feels the slightest discomfort on his face and head, he comes across very "disrespectful." In reality, he's just trying to tell me he is uncomfortable.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, there is more then discomfort. The horse lacks basic good training.
I would work on making this hrose lead with respect. Lunging is not the answer to every horse problem! 
Lead the horse with something that gets his attention. For me, that is a stud shank run under the chin, but do not recommend it if not experienced in both introducing it and using it correctly
That leaves a rope halter, and perhaps a helper,with a whip behind, staying in safe zone, to make that horse give lightly, lead on a loose shank.
Don't know how you are riding, but I suspect you are trying to just turn the hrose in the direction you wish to go,with reins, and that the horse most likley has no body/shoulder control, and/or you do not know how to use it
A horse follows his shoulders, not his nose, until we teach him to follow his nose with those shoulders, and entire body in correct alignment, and for that you need to ride with legs

You should only indicate direction of turn, with slight rein, just so you can see the inside corner of that eye, and then, make those shoulders follow. Bump with outside leg, slightly head of the cinch. Use inside leg if horse is hanging ribs into the turn.

Yes, tack fit should be always looked at, but a well trained hrose leads =with anything, including just a binder twine thrown around his neck, in case a halter or lead shank was forgotten at the barn, and you just happen to have some twine in a pocket. 
I think you need to take some lessons, and if this horse acts the same with experienced people, find a horse more suitable for your level


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, I just re read your post. 
Leg yielding in the direction she wants to go, shows a horse that has zero respect for your leg, as she is moving into pressure from that leg, and not away from it
If she understands leg aids, then you have to use that leg she is moving into, hard as needed, to get her moving in the other direction, and thus off of it
Do you only have trouble turning this horse right, and does she turn willingly in the other direction, or were you just using right as an example?
If only turning to the right is a problem, you need to look for a physical reason , which could be mere stiffness on that side, or some lameness issues.

She does sound like she has your number, and some school horses get very good at working only at the skill level of a given rider.

She is either ignoring aids with you, or running through them


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I think you need some lessons with a really, really good coach. They can help better than we can because they can see what's going on and offer suggestions in real time. 

I think what we have here is a combination of rider error and a horse that has learned she doesn't have to do as she's told. It's a pain in the butt to fix, they WILL get worse before they get better because they're used to being able to get away with it. I had a horse who had, at some point, learned to drop a shoulder and spin. He dumped me every single time. I never did manage to learn the knack to staying on (and I stick pretty well!) which resulted in some pretty spectacular falls. I just got back on and asked again, every time. Often I'd be pretty battered and bruised by the time I got what I wanted, but I got. what. I. wanted.

My attitude with horses like this is that I will take as long as it takes and do whatever I have to to get what I want. With one that's taken to ignoring my legs, I'd ride with either two schooling whips, or spurs. Depending on the horse. And if I applied leg and was ignored, you bet your butt I'd be applying whip or spur. Hard. Until they got the heck off my leg.

(DO NOT do the above with a horse that doesn't understand. Be nicer. But if the horse KNOWS leg yield and just goes into your leg as a big 'screw you', don't be nice, be effective. Effective isn't always pretty. Make a CONSEQUENCE to ignoring you, and make it CONSISTENT and VERY CLEAR, and 99.9% of horses will get the picture.)


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I agree that this horse thinks he has very little reason to listen to you, or respect you, on the ground or in the saddle. I agree with Smilie that you should get this horse listening to you on the ground first - a lot of respect issues, when fixed on the ground, transfer over to ridden work. Not all, but a lot. Once he's no longer walking all over you on the ground, get in the saddle and demand the same respect. On a horse that doesn't want to listen to my legs, I'll wear spurs and ask with the rein, tell with my calf, and demand with my spur. Blue eyed pony has it right - sometimes it gets ugly before it gets pretty. With a horse that consistently ignores your legs, you might have to get pretty western to get him listening. Don't worry, it won't always be that way. Once he knows that you're serious about him turning, you can start to refine our leg aides. But in the beginning, do whatever you have to do to get the job done. 

On a horse that doesn't work well with spurs, I'll carry a crop or two and after using the rein to ask, tell him by tapping on his shoulder or neck and if that doesn't work, increase the pressure with your crop. Again, depending on how belligerent the horse is, it might get pretty western at first. This also works on horses that grab the bit when you ask them to turn - if he grabs the bit and doesn't yield his face or tries to pull the rein out of your hand tap him sharply up on the opposite side of his neck to bump his head in the direction of the rein you're pulling. 

-- Kai


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

OK... I read some but not all the responses..so,

_Wait...stop, slow down and *halt!!*_

So when you ask the horse to turn it turns opposite what you are asking....
Yes?

OK...this is going to sound crazy, _maybe..._
So a friends kid was riding my horse in lessons.
Instructor was having a fit in how the horse was responding when given cues...
{kid is a beginner rider}
So in exasperation the instructor gets on my horse and starts to make comment about you do it this way...and the horse did_ exactly_ what he was told.
My horse was taught opposite what many other horses have been taught we've discovered.
Instead of turning away from pressure he turns into it...
If you use left leg he turns a beautiful left turn, rounds right around your leg..harder you push/cue tighter he turns to a planted hoof and will pivot a complete circle that way.
Right leg, he turns right...
_He turns *into* not away from the pressure..._
Maybe this is what you are encountering?? :think:

Try it and see what happens...if that is the training then _you train you to ride the way the horse is educated _since it is easier to make your body do as your mind understands how it works together..
The horse is trained...it is the rider in this case that is _*not *_synchronized to the horse.
In my case, no one is going to just hop on and do a rail class and win unless they know the trick...and I don't let it be known to very many. 
No one else rides my horses often but me... 
When I bought him he was trained this way, right or wrong, I just adapted to him and yet ride each of my other horses differently anyhow.._all have quirks.

_Now I'm off to reading the rest of the responses... :smile:
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

OK after reading responses it sounds as if you are being tested by the horse...
You are _not_ demanding of her respect that she give it to you, so she does what she wants and says, "Make me" _and you *don't...*_
You need some help...
The horse needs some in hand work done in respect and needs some serious tune-up done astride...
But it is you who after tune-up is completed needs to know how to earn and keep that respect so she works with you not against you as she is doing...
A meeting of will and mind set needs done and it is hers that needs altering and yours that needs to learn leadership status shown...
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Years ago I rode a mule that only wanted to turn one way (I forget what way). She was blind in one eye.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It sounds as if the horse is testing the rider and winning.

You do need instruction on this horse. 

When she wants to turn one way you say you can turn her head in the direction she wants but not her body so you turn a full circle in the direction she wants to go until you are facing the way you want to go. 

*WRONG, * she _must _be made to turn whichever way you want. 

Shorten the rein keep her head turned in the direction you want to go, boot her _hard_ with the opposite leg and carry a whip which, in this instance I would say slap her hard down the shoulder. 

Let her know that you mean business. 

When leading her either carry a long dressage whip or have a longer then normal rope. When she stops, do not pull her but drop back a step so you are by her shoulder and use the whip/rope across her backside to drive her forward.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Lunging is not the answer to every horse problem!


Hardly. But, it is a good tool to use with a horse who lacks respect. You establish easily the fact that when you say "move", you mean it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sometimes when a horse doesn't want to turn where you want him to, people will think that the horse just doesn't want to turn right, or left, as the case may be. But, when a hrose wants to go the opposite way you do, it's not because they want to oppose you, but because they want something that's on the other side.

you want them to go AWAY from their friend, they want to go TO the friend.

you want them to leave the barn, they want to go back to it. etc. it may just happend that all the "I want " are the right, and all the "horse wants' are on the left, and so you think it's some kind of directional issue, but it's really just a matter of chance that all her wants are on the left, and all yours on the right.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I really don't care if people use an inside leg or an outside leg, in a turn, BUT the Standard, has to remain that a horse yields to pressure, versus moving into it
Having horses accept standing tied, leading, moving off a leg, giving to a bit, are all based on giving to pressure, versus resisting it, moving into it, which is also a normal response, until we teach a horse otherwise.
Thus, you have to think as to what you are doing, when using a leg to turn a horse and NOT the direction of that turn,per say
Sometimes, a horse will not follow the direction indicated by the reins, and then you use whatever leg is needed, applying the 'learning to give to pressure. 
There is NOT ONE case in training a horse, where you want him to move INTO PRESSURE. Not One!
Thus, when indicating a turn with either outside rein, or direct rein, and the horse just gives his neck, or even runs off in the opposite direction, following his shoulder, you use whatever leg is needed, to have that hrose move OFF of pressure. There can be no exception to this rule, in a good training program, as it is fundamental
Therefore, as stated before, if a horse does not easily turn off of a light rein signal alone, you use whatever leg is needed, to get the yield to pressure. Outside leg, if horse is just rubber necking, shoulders not following, inside leg, if horse is trying to turn like aboard, versus bending around inside leg.
How can you expect a horse to know the difference, as to when he should resist, thus move into pressure versus yielding to it, when you don't have consistant rules?
For instance, this horse evades going where asked, by moving sideways into a leg. You better believe, I would use spurs whatever, and get that horse moving off that leg!
The op needs help. No horse that I know, trained in any credible training program, moves into pressure, either riding , being led, whatever.
Any well trained horse should turn off of reins alone, with legs only needed when the hrose is not following that turn indication, with his entire body in correct aleignment


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Fimargue said:


> Hardly. But, it is a good tool to use with a horse who lacks respect. You establish easily the fact that when you say "move", you mean it.



This only works if the OP knows how to lunge correctly and the horse understands how and what lunging is...might bring on more problems than she currently has too...

True story...
One of my jobs was to lunge horses that had not been used in lessons for several days in winter so the "kinks" were gone..
Took a new leased to my boss lesson horse out to lunge..._and got charged!_ 
The horse turned, reared back and charged me...
And I RAN, hauled my butt over a 5' + high solid wall and was told never touched but my fingertips to it...
I know what I'm doing and can lunge many a horse most can not...
What was failed to tell us is this horse was taught to joust from lunging...he was taught to pivot, rear back and charge as he would to knock the opposing knight off their horse in competition..
_Wish someone would of told us about it before I near had a heart attack... :icon_rolleyes:_
Horse did not make it in our lesson program...nice horse, bad quirks.

Unless you are very well versed in handling a horse at the end of a long lunge line and can drive where you want them, how you want them successfully...lunging is *not* a good solution for all. :|
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo.._


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

There are some videos online that show lunging for respect - though always makes me wish being able to come show myself.

Round pen is definitely best for one who is not used to lunging.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Fimargue said:


> Hardly. But, it is a good tool to use with a horse who lacks respect. You establish easily the fact that when you say "move", you mean it.


 Still won't have a horse that needs to be dragged to lead correctly, nor have that horse yield to pressure correctly, like never moving into a leg, using side stepping as an evasion, nor locking shoulders, refusing to turn
Yeah, a horse that is totally disrespectful, charges people, challenges them,, balks, can benefit from some correct round pen work, BUT that will not teach a horse with no shoulder control to follow the rein indication of turn, or keep that horse from using the evasive technique of side stepping against a leg, when asked to go where he does not wish to.

There is a point, you need to get on and ride, effectively with legs, besides just hands,as reins only control a horse from the withers forward, legs the rest.
Thus, be having feel, knowing when to hold and drive, when to release, recognizing as to which body part is not yielding correctly to pressure, feeling that slight yield and rewarding by removal of that pressure, do you really train ahorse, JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You could most likley lunge this horse until the cows come home, and it would not improve his leading, nor would it prevent the horse from moving into pressure, as side stepping when not wanting to go where asked, nor in turning, not following his shoulders, with that nose.
I see no application for lunging this horse, for the issues given.
Disrespectful, charging people, balking with no forward, yeah, but not from what is written


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Fimargue said:


> There are some videos online that show lunging for respect - though always makes me wish being able to come show myself.
> 
> Round pen is definitely best for one who is not used to lunging.


The problem with those videos, is people watching, not knowing when to use them , and often not knowing how to use them correctly

If that is the case, more harm is done then good.There is no ABC to horse training, unfortunately. Thus many of these NH principles, given in good intentions, to the masses, have a great danger of being mis under stood, used incorrectly
Thus we have the over use of join up, on horses that are way past needing any join up, the over use of lateral flexion, esp at the stand still, the over use, or even single use of the one rein stop, the over and over round penning of horses, as a daily routine, ect, ect. In other words, mindless horse training attempts, like trying to follow a guideline, without understanding when to apply it, how to apply it correctly, when to use it, and when not.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@Smilie I agree with everything you said ... however I can think of a case where it is desirable that the horse moves into pressure - driving! You want the horse to lean into the pressure of the collar on his chest and shoulders and put his weight against the pull, and similarly to push against the breeching to back up the vehicle. It is for this reason that Thunder the Shire is the only horse I've ever owned that doesn't back up with a hand on his chest .... I've trained him to back up with the verbal cue "baaaaaack" and occasionally a hand on his nose. I didn't want to inadvertently confuse him by training him that my hand means back up but the pressure from the collar/breastcollar is desirable, even though I'm reasonably certain he'd be okay with it. 

-- Kai


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, forgot about pulling. It's been a long time since I hooked a hrose up to a tobacco or stone boat, LOL perhaps I should have said moving into a leg , resisting a bit, versus giving
You could also argue that a rope horse learns to keep that rope tight, after a calf is roped, yet I do not think of those situations as being not giving to an aid, be hands , legs or an artificial aid, like a whip.
I never back a horse, using pressure on his chest, and either use just stepping towards the horse, while saying , 'back, or use the lead shank, or reins, if bridled
Wonder if that would help, on a horse used for both pulling and riding, keeping the pressure he is asked to lean into, in a separate location?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

whatever is suggested, remember that this person seems to be a relative newbie to horses, and apparently without a trainer?

The help we offer has to be tailered to what the OP is likely able to put into action.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@Smilie Yeah I use two fingers on the chest to back a horse a step or two in a stall while I'm scooping poop, for instance, or in other instances where only a step or two is needed (and I find when I need a step or two back I'm never in a decent position to put a hand on the nose, or they're not bridled/haltered, or some other reason). I've never really taught it per se, but somehow or other every horse I interact with frequently learns that when I lightly touch the chest with two fingers I want him to step back. It's Dreams' favorite trick since I always give him rubbies after and he's a love ***** lol .... I barely touch his chest and he flexes his neck and takes exactly two very smart steps back, then stands there looking at me like, "Well? I did a good job didn't I? PRAISE ME!!"

I'd forgotten about roping horses, but you're right, even though the horse is taught to keep the rope tight, or in the instance of a driving horse to keep pressure on that collar, you always want him responsive to leg/whip aids and rein pressure. I have thought about using the two fingers in a different spot on his chest, but really I never place them in an exact location so I'm sure I wouldn't ever get them exactly where they are needed ... luckily Thunder is very eager to please and he caught on to verbal cues very quickly with minimal teaching effort on my part. He's actually quite a bit more responsive to verbal cues than a hand on the nose or pulling back on the lead ... hmmm ... I think we will have to work on this next time I have a minute ....

Anyway sorry to hijack the thread OP, I'll try not to do it again!!

-- Kai


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Easy to hijack a thread, so I will continue the 'hold up for just another second,as I have one more thought.
I guess I just work on having a horse yield, backing up, by yielding space to me.
I guess that might come partly from showing, as you can't use your hands in classes like showmanship.
Maybe I even place a hand on a horse, to ask for a step back, cleaning a stall, as at a show,without even being aware of doing it. At home, I don't have horses in stalls while I clean them. Mine will also back up, if I just say 'back' and step towards them
Another interesting thing, far as pulling. The horse is both yielding to pressure- going forward, driven by whatever aids, yet needing to lean into it with his chest at least, in order to pull.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

hi again, thanks for so many responses.
to awnser a few questions that have been asked;
I've been riding for about 3 years (so I'm still pretty new but I'm getting to be a confident rider, at least with flat work) its just the leasing is a pretty new thing for me.
I use the same tack as the owner and I don't think stirrup length is much of an issue as I tend to use what ever its left on
I loan her once a week (twice when it starts to get brighter) and she has 2 other people ride her, the owner about once a month, and another lady once a week
I've found that she's very good turning to the right (often where her fave routes are) but more difficult to turn to the left, She starts to leg yield
she's getting better at leading but is still very bad as I have to use ALOT of pressure.


I don't think lunging will be the right option for me, at least at the moment, we don't have a round pen and Ive never actually done it before. 
Ive started to carry a dressage whip for leading her, when she stops I start to tap her, would you say to continue tapping until she moves her self or to tap and then ask again with the head collar?
also she's no different in a rope halter to a nylon/thicker one, and I don't think her owner would be comfortable if I used a chain on her.
I'm going to try doing more of a warm up with her next as we normally just take the walk down to the woods as one (its pretty far but compleatly straight) so hopefully doing more 20m circles and focusing on bending her to the left might help 

most people have been saying I need to be more strict with her when she side steps, so ill work on that, ill use way more leg and whip if I have too. its deffonatly not her misunderstanding as she's 12 years old and works perfectly on the right so theres really no excuse for her.


thanks again
-lucy


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Yes, maybe it's not, the lunging.

When she refuses the move, you ask her once with the lead line and then you proceed to move her feet. I usually use just my energy, hand, or rope if needed, but you basically push them from behind for a forward movement, like you would do in a lunge line (that's why it's a good tool for teaching a horse move from pressure). If the horse doesn't move forward, you make them move sideways, backwards - and quickly at that - so they realise that when they have a change to move forward, it is a much more pleasant option. 

I wish I could find a video, but no success at that.

Horses are naturally one sided, and they sometimes challenge you, so you will have to push her harder in that turn. You start by putting the weight on your inside seat bone, then you take more rein turning left, asking for more pressure, block her with the right rein, and you push and tap her over with your right leg. 

One thing to pay attention is if your own body is more tilted to the other side. If your not straight, the horse can't be straight. I have to pay attention to this all the time as I have a mild scoliosis, so I'm naturally more tilted to the left.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

UnhappyHacker said:


> she's getting better at leading but is still very bad as I have to use ALOT of pressure.
> 
> . Ive started to carry a dressage whip for leading her, when she stops I start to tap her, would you say to continue tapping until she moves her self or to tap and then ask again with the head collar


All that tapping will do is frustrate her, you are just nagging. Use the whip hard so she really feels it and leaps forward as if someone let a rocket off behind her. 

Then stop her, ask her to walk on again - if you whacked her hard enough then she will immediately walk forward. 

Don't think that this is being mean/nasty/cruel horses learn from each other often with far more force we can inflict. 

You say something about leg yielding when she is turning left, I think she is running into your leg. You ask her to turn left and she 'leg yields' I assume she is running her body to the right, which is not leg yielding it is just being evasive to your aids.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

Fimargue said:


> Yes, maybe it's not, the lunging.
> 
> When she refuses the move, you ask her once with the lead line and then you proceed to move her feet. I usually use just my energy, hand, or rope if needed, but you basically push them from behind for a forward movement, like you would do in a lunge line (that's why it's a good tool for teaching a horse move from pressure). If the horse doesn't move forward, you make them move sideways, backwards - and quickly at that - so they realise that when they have a change to move forward, it is a much more pleasant option.
> 
> ...


Yes, I used to struggle with twisting/tilting quite a bit but I make sure I'm not doing it with her. i block her with the reins quite bit too, I think its having a stricter leg and making no compromises from now on when I ride her, I'm having a longer day at the stables tomorrow so I'm going to try and prove my point in the school then once she starts to get it Ill try it on a hack, she's more stubborn there.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> All that tapping will do is frustrate her, you are just nagging. Use the whip hard so she really feels it and leaps forward as if someone let a rocket off behind her.
> 
> Then stop her, ask her to walk on again - if you whacked her hard enough then she will immediately walk forward.
> 
> ...


ok thanks, ill try that for leading, I know she's not actually leg yielding but it sure does look like it, maybe she has a future in dressage? xD she basically ignores my leg and walkes into it, like I've said, I'm going to try and correct this in the school, using way more leg, at first I thought it was just about what path we went down, hence why I just circled her to the right spot but its probably more to do with her being stiff, she tends to be a bit more focused in the school so hopefully we can fix it there so we both have an easier time on hacks.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Good plan. Sometimes you just have to go for it to prove you point.

At least you are learning with her. If things would be too easy, we would never learn anything.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

Fimargue said:


> Good plan. Sometimes you just have to go for it to prove you point.
> 
> At least you are learning with her. If things would be too easy, we would never learn anything.


thank you! I really don't want to switch horses, she may not be the easiest horse but she's predictable and is really bringing my confidence along.


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## UnhappyHacker (Dec 30, 2017)

hi Foxhunter
regarding your PM, Im based in London not bonchurch, but thank you so much for your offer!
I'm looking into finding a trainer but it won't be possible for at least a few more weeks, in the mean time everyones advice has been so helpful and I really hope I can fix some of these problems before they see me.
sorry if this a pm, as you can see I'm really new to horse forum and still getting the hang of the layout.
thanks again for your advice, its good that people are so willing to help on here, I'm honestly surprised by the amount of replies I got!
-Lucy


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