# The ultimate bit discussion thread!



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I have always wondered about boucher (baucher?) bits. In particular, I'm having a SUPER hard time finding something for Thunder the Shire. He's not yet 2 so I have time, but I wanted to have at least 3 bits available so that if he doesn't take to a particular one I don't have to wait a week to order something, since there are no draft bits available in my area. I am looking for something that is "flavored" - sweet iron, copper, etc - that is a snaffle of a sort that won't pinch (so no rings), that is not shanked. I have found very little that is in my price range of $50 or so (though once I find something that Thunder goes well in, I will be more willing to spend more money), because while I don't mind expensive bits, why buy one that I don't know will work?

I have a ton of different bits in my tack room since I ride a good many colts, but they are all "normal" sized horses lol so I can get away with having a large selection of bits that I might not use often, as there will always be another horse that I will use it on eventually. Thunder is different - he's the only draft I have ever or will ever break, in all likelihood, unless I decide that I want to make the switch to draft horses (possible but not probable). So far the only bit I have for him is a stainless steel (ergh) loose ring (eeww) single jointed snaffle that came with a draft bridle I bought online. I will try it out on him, of course, but I would like another bit or two in case he doesn't take to that one. 

I have found a boucher (baucher?) with a cuprium lozenge that I would like to try. I have read that bouchers use poll pressure, though I think the amount of poll pressure used will be slight if anything, since this is not a leverage bit and the bit won't rotate very much in the horse's mouth. I have also read that people use them to encourage the horse to lower its head, which I can see being useful to a degree, since Thunder moves naturally with his head very high. Thunder is the first horse I will be breaking with more of an emphasis on dressage, so I will want him to go long and low frequently. 

The bit I have in mind is the one about halfway down on this page, the SW-3999 hanging cheek with cuprium link: 

https://drafttack.com/page172.html

It seems reasonable price wise. Will it work the way I'm thinking though? Or am I wanting a different sort of bit? Tell me more about bauchers, for those who use them!

-- Kai


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Boucher bit doesn't give you any poll pressure and it won't 'mechanically' lower the head. 
I've seen articles that say that they work similar to a D ring or a full cheek but I don't agree with that because the rein action can pull the bit into the horse's mouth if the horse is resistant to direct reining 
If you want just a small amount of poll pressure then look at the Bevel bits or an Uxeter Kimberwick


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Golden Horse can you post the bit outside of her mouth, so we can see the mouthpiece?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I posted my reply on the wrong thread, so copied it here. It was just a general remark, far as a bit thread



I think it is very difficult to include all bits under just one topic, and should be divided ,far as use, judgement of severity, (taking the variable of the hands on the reins out of the equation), as to whether that bit is being used with one hand, no constant contract, or with two hands, and some degree of contact at all times
Therefore, I think two separate topics are required, one which goes into different bits used English, or with contact and bits used western with no constant contact, esp beyond the snaffle stage, and ridden one handed.
I don't see how you could broadly discuss bits without this separation into two categories of riding


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I posted my reply on the wrong thread, so copied it here. It was just a general remark, far as a bit thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that distinction is not as clear as you would like to make it is it? Because if no Western rider uses contact ever, after the snaffle stage why are there so many variations of curb? Like, oh for instance, barrel racers, who seem to want all sorts of weird and wonderful devices. Again though why look to make the sides different, why not try and find common ground, and maybe, just maybe we could all be open to learning something new?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jaydee said:


> The Boucher bit doesn't give you any poll pressure and it won't 'mechanically' lower the head.
> I've seen articles that say that they work similar to a D ring or a full cheek but I don't agree with that because the rein action can pull the bit into the horse's mouth if the horse is resistant to direct reining


Agree that the Boucher doesn't give any poll pressure. The way it works similar to a D ring or full cheek is just by being more stable in the mouth than an O ring bit. But it does have differences too, as mentioned.

I also was wondering about the mouthpiece on @Goldenhorse's bit. It looks like it may give some pre-signal from the cheeks, even just because of the swivel in the cheekpieces. Some horses actually like a Tom Thumb anyway. The main culprits that cause the head tossing and such are ones that are cheaply made with poor balance.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> @*Golden Horse* can you post the bit outside of her mouth, so we can see the mouthpiece?


Here you go.









Which is all kinds of better in the mouthpiece dept than the last curb we tried on her









Now that one caused all kinds of controversy elsewhere, but once again, I listen to what my horse is telling me, and she liked that better than the snaffles that we had been using, we swapped her out mid lesson, and she just went so well in it, despite my many misgivings.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

interesting. I've never seen such a beautiful, fancy side piece. and, what is the material? very pretty bit.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I don't have a horse over which I have ultimate equipment control, but my BO from whom I lease swears by rubber Pelhams. She does not use double reins, though; she uses only the leveraged rein attachments as she favors poll pressure. 

She once used my Dita for a lesson and switched her bit to "snaffle" - later on asking me cheekily whether I noticed that Dita was a bit harder to stop. It was, but I left it like that for quite some time. However, she came up with all kinds of maneuvers to evade when I kept her on contact, and she's also not very impressed by it judging from the strength of contact I need sometimes to keep her at a canter (though this can vary within the same ride). So, I put it back to a "curb bit". (The purchase is about 1.5 in, the shank about 2 in, so there isn't a whole lot of force amplification, just some rotation to get the poll pressure.) 

I'm still going to be happy if I can slow her to a walk by slowing my posting, or slow her canter by stop following her movement, but I also got a little extra "Pay attention!" when she goes all race-horsey on me. I don't yank and I don't keep more contact than necessary - in fact, I'm one of the few people allowed to ride BO's horses that _require_ quiet hands - so I don't get giraffing or head-shaking a lot. She also doesn't associate the bit with pain as I have to problem bridling her at shoulder's height.

I don't have much experience with anything else, so it's hard for me to see what's around the corner.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> interesting. I've never seen such a beautiful, fancy side piece. and, what is the material? very pretty bit.


Not quite sure what the material is, but it is very solid feeling. I was convinced that she would hate it, being as I wanted one for so long, I was pleasantly surprised that it met with immediate approval.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I tend to keep things very simple. I start everybody in a loose ring or D ring snaffle from Myler. (Level 1, beginner bits).









When we're done with that we graduate to a correction bit, I use these: https://www.sstack.com/western_bitscurbs_robart-bits/robart-spring-loaded-low-port-correction/

When we're done with correction bits, then we go to either a Cathedral bit or a Spade bit, depending on what the horse likes.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Kaifyre said:


> The bit I have in mind is the one about halfway down on this page, the SW-3999 hanging cheek with cuprium link:
> 
> https://drafttack.com/page172.html
> -- Kai


I actually like this one better...








This is what you picked out...









Can you see the difference in the mouthpiece itself?

The first bit is the same width continuous across...
The second bit has a graduated mouth thickness...
Unless you know there is room to fit that graduated thickness in the oral cavity sometimes it is better to stay with "sameness"...
The purchase amount you need to watch, where the bit ring that holds the headstall is, as that is what can exert poll pressure to your babies head....

This is another so very similar...









There is a man not far from my home who has pulling horses...Belgians..
He has a new one he is breaking to harness, pulling and eventaully it will also ride.
I will see if I can ask him what he uses if that helps... "????"
Qtrbell though should be a wealth of information for you though with the array of "big boys" is that stable yard...
:runninghorse2:.....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

@Kaifyre if you are on FB, maybe join some of the draft horse groups and you may be able to pick up some second hand bargains in a bigger size.

I have no aversion to stainless, so I think in your position I would look for a french link, a mullen mouth, and a single joint snaffle all with eggbutt cheeks as my starting point.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I like using different bits, though I own very few myself. I shamelessly borrow or swap, though. 

I ride for many people, all good horsemen. I love getting on a horse that is wearing a bit I'm not familiar with. I think the most unsure I was, was the first time I rode a horse in a gag bit. I really didn't know how it would respond and I was afraid I'd give mixed signals.

One of my favorite ranchers starts everything in a Tom Thumb. Amazing to me. And his ranch horses are light and handy and good work partners. Some stay in the TT, most move on to a curb. According to some that simply can't happen. But it does.

Back when I started riding I had notions about what is a good bit. Those ideas have changed. I used to only have an aluminum grazer and a rubber-covered ring snaffle. I was quite a snob toward people I thought were using "meaner" bits. Now I consider that shape of the horse's mouth, how they respond to learning or being introduced to new things. And, of course, their response to any of my brilliant ideas!

My daughter just got a horse that dislikes the average D-ring french link snaffle. He prefers a snaffle with thinner bars and heavy rings. What is he thinking? lol

And my own goes in a medium port, loose jawed curb, or his pelham. He was trained through the spade level of buckaroo horsemanship, but I have no desire to buy a really good spade bit and I'm picky about balance with those. When it was below zero and I rode a couple weeks ago I merely used a halter for us to plod around with.

The ranch horses go in a variety of curbs and all are started in snaffles and on to bosals, the two rein, bit. The polo ponies I'm riding right now are all in pelhams, though not all go in a standing martingales.

Fun stuff. And just when you think you have a good grasp on bits...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Does anybody else look at, or consider, their horse's natural carriage when buying a bit? I'm a geek and know how my horse, and each of the ranch remuda, carry their heads. 

The sales people at King's Saddlery have gotten used to me balancing bits on my index finger and walking around for a really long time while I try to figure if a particular bit will sit well in Pancho, Rollin' Roland, or Fluffy's (real names of horses for the hands) mouths. 

If a cowboy has a bit with rein chains he has to convince me that the weight of the chains are correct to the horse's in his string. Or he can pull them and use what the horse has been going in. Those aren't just for decoration, IMO. I get real squinty-eyed when they are presenting their case. lol It's a source of teasing among the long-timers and fear for the newbies.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Lets see...Flash and Cutter prefer O rings, TJ and Cloud both like this bit https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2E87C00B-7B6A-11D5-A192-00B0D0204AE5 , Gamble prefers a stainless Tom Thumb, Freckles only likes a sweet iron grazing bit and Thunder can't have a bit in his mouth due to an almost severed tongue so on the very rare occasion I even get on him it's with a halter and two lead ropes. I'm not picky about which bit is in their mouth, I let them be the picky ones. I've had horses enough years and have been to enough auctions that I have a large variety of bits at my disposal so it's easy enough to switch bits out until I find one they seem to be happy (as in quiet mouth and not trying to evade it) with.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@Golden Wow, where did you find that bit? It's gorgeous ... never seen anything like it. 
@horselovinguy Thank you for the analysis. I actually hadn't looked closely at the thickness of the mouthpieces, but I see what you mean. I think I read somewhere (maybe it was here?) that draft horses tend to have bigger tongues and lower palates than light horses so I want to stay away from single jointed mouthpieces if at all possible ... plus I want Thunder going as light as I can get him and more joints = less potential for poking him sharply in the mouth = a lighter mouth overall. Please, if you could ask your draft trainer friend what he uses ... I mean, everything I normally use on colts is not available in a 6" mouth unless I want to get a custom bit. I'm not averse to spending money on a good bit that is well balanced and well made, but I don't want to unload all that cash for a bit that Thunder won't like. 

And @Golden I guess the only reason I don't care for stainless is that the majority of the horses I've ridden rode better in other metals. But since Thunder has never had a bit in his mouth, he may very well take to stainless. And it's not about me anyway I suppose, the final authority on bits is always the horse itself. I actually hadn't even thought of a mullen mouth for Thunder either ... I may have to try one of those out on him. I'll check out the draft horse FB groups, they probably have some very good stuff being bought and sold.

-- Kai


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Well that distinction is not as clear as you would like to make it is it? Because if no Western rider uses contact ever, after the snaffle stage why are there so many variations of curb? Like, oh for instance, barrel racers, who seem to want all sorts of weird and wonderful devices. Again though why look to make the sides different, why not try and find common ground, and maybe, just maybe we could all be open to learning something new?


 I thought that is why I put the word "CONSTANT [ in there,
Even in the snaffle bit stage, once the horse is going, you start to give him periods where you expect him to stay the same, without rein contact, working towards that eventual goal. As I most likely posted multi times, at first, you will only get a stride or so,before you need to take contact and build on that
Jr western horses, even in the snaffle stage are shown on a loose rein

I also said that when it comes tot he point the horse is up in a curb, then that difference becomes even more pronounced

THIS IS NOT A NEGATIVE STATEMENT, but just one of reality when discussing different bit functions

Look, barrel racing is as distinct from judged western events as English.
I am also not criticizing as to what happens in that discipline, except to say, only in barrel racing, games, are two hands allowed on the reins, gag bits, chain mouth pieces, tiedowns (well tiedowns are used in roping also ) ect, so to compare that discipline, to how curbs are meant to be used in judged western events is not even feasible


It has nothing to do with common ground! . I don't see your problem-sorry!

When riding one handed with a curb, the rein signal is higher, more upward, versus back, allowing the mouth piece to rotate correctly Sorry, it does make a difference
Find me one site , that goes into depth, far as different bit functions, that does not go into bits English versus western. If bit makers make that distinction, trainers, it does affect the use of a bit

The action of abit will be different, when used differently, ESP BEYOND The snaffle stage. Curbs with fixed shanks, should not be used for direct reining

My comment was not in any manner or form meant to be dividing, negative, just a plain simple fact.Carry on!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is very common, when bits are discussed,esp curbs, and most sites will not just say 'curbs' but English or western curbs and how they are used. NEITHER IS BETTER THEN THE OTHER<JUST DIFFERENT
QUOTE
Taken from https://www.equisearch.com/articles/types-of-horse-bits-17010
_'Types of Curb Bits_
_A basic Western Curb Bit has a gently ported mouthpiece and shanks to which the reins attach. As the rider takes a feel of the reins, more leverage is exerted on the horse's mouth and also on the poll (where the bridle goes over the head, behind the ears). By increasing the amount of port on the mouthpiece, pressure is applied to the roof of the mouth also. Since Western horses are ridden on a loose rein, the longer shank allows the rider to utilize the leverage by giving extremely light rein aids and attaining the same result as a rider using a snaffle on a firmer contact._

_In the English Curb Bit the port can also vary in severity. In general the shanks on English bits are shorter than on Western bits - four to five inches on an English bit as opposed to up to eight or nine inches on a Western one. The English Curb bit is often used in a double bridle. In the double bridle, two bits are actually used. One is the curb, called the Weymouth and one is the snaffle, called the Bridoon. Both of these bits are used together to refine the aids in the higher levels of dressage competition.'_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here we have an article on bits for ENGLISH riding

Of course, you can mix them up at home, out of the showring, but in a discussion on bits seems logical to take what is standard in either discipline, and sites on bitting discuss how those bits function, beyond the snaffle, by how they are used in that discipline

Bits for English Riding

Bits for English Riding

I was not replying to your bit, GOLDEN, but on what I thought was the subject of your thread- a wide open all comprehensive discussion of bits in general, and then, sorry, no apologies, you have to make that distinction as part of the discussion. Afterall, horsemen do, on any threads on the subject!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

You know @*Smilie* you don’t like this thread, go make your own one to discuss Western bits, and stop trying to derail mine....it was building so well, but again you want to divide and not unite.

You know the reason why I started it? Because there was a great discussion building in this thread 

http://www.horseforum.com/barrel-racing/iron-wrapped-mouth-piece-786449/#post1970478307

Which a lot of people would miss, because it started off about barrel racing, so people may not revisit, and they would miss out.

Seriously do you think that this should all be about English and Western? Not all English riders are Looking for the same thing from their bits, same as not all Western riders are.

This was an attempt to have a place where we could chat about bits among ourselves, sharing experiences, and I am BITTERLY DISAPPOINTED at your attempt to change it into a Western is different, here is a bunch of cut and paste stuff about bits.....


If you want to have a Western only thread, feel free to start one.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

@Kaifyre, it is a gorgeous bit, I have wanted one for so long, but didn’t have anything in a curb. When Fergie started going so well in hers, I found one on a FB page, Baroque horses and tack, or something and just had to order it. As I say, was convinced that it was going to end up being a wall hanging, but she actually likes it.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I wish I had photos of all the interesting bits I've seen used. 

I remember having a large pony given to me. She was very good looking but unhandled at 6. I started where I usually do, with a D-ring snaffle. Things went okay but not great. I tried a few different bits with her. A buddy on the next ranch thought she might do with a bit of poll pressure. He suggested a Wonder Bit. I thought he was joking. What a name!

She liked it. Relaxed. Carried it nicely. I tried transitioning her to more traditional curbs or back to snaffles (I think because the name seems silly!), but always went back to the Wonder Bit.

I worked an Arab that was being conditioned for endurance racing. He acted a little like that mare. I offered the Wonder Bit and he, too, did nicely in it. His owner was a very serious competitor, and when I apologized for the bit's name he said something about it could be called a (something obscene) but if the horse goes well he doesn't care what it's called.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm interested in peoples' experience with "elevator" bits. Those are something I've not used. I don't think ever.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

He also has a 30 minute video on "Correction Bits and Single vs Double Jointed Mouthpieces".

With curb bits, how they "balance" in the mouth is important. Curb bits ROTATE. The weight of the reins will pull the end of the shank under the mouthpiece. If the horse carries its head at a 45 degree angle, then a 45 degree bend in the shanks will result in the end of the shanks sitting directly under the mouthpiece. If the rider pulls on the reins, the mouthpiece rotates freely until the curb strap tightens - which is about 45-60 degrees in a properly adjusted curb strap. 

This rotation doesn't cause pressure in the horse's mouth. It provides a very clear SIGNAL of what the rider wants, and does so without creating pressure. Used as a signal bit, curbs are very gentle.

If the horse is expected to carry its head in the vertical, then it needs straight shanks. This still allows the curb to rotate 45 degrees before the curb strap tightens, again giving a signal.

If a horse carries its head in the vertical, and you use a bit with a 45 degree bend, then the bit is "overbalanced" (if I remember the term Greg Darnell uses). By the time the reins pull the bit back into balance, the ends are pointed 45 degrees toward the rider - just to get neutral. Further rotation to tighten the curb strap and apply pressure leaves the shanks pointed 90-105 degrees back, almost in a straight line to the rider's hands. Once there is a straight line, the curb bit cannot rotate further

As @*Smilie* pointed out, the way the bit is intended to be used is important. Most western riding emphasizes using the curb bit to SIGNAL the horse, which requires the bit to be used between the resting position (slack in the reins) and the engaged position (which comes when there is still a little curve in the reins).

A longer shank has to move further (measured in inches) to rotate 45-60 degrees than a short shank. Long shanks allow a rider's hands to move a little more without affecting the pressure in the horse's mouth. Short shanks - sides really - allow the same cues to be given a horse with less hand movement. But in return, they need a rider whose hands WILL move less.

The ratio between the top of the shank to the total side gives the mechanical advantage. With this Pelham, the bottom is about twice as long as the top. Assuming a 2nd class lever, the mechanical advantage would be 3:1.








​ 
In this Billy Allen curb bit, the ratio is about the same...a little less by my attempts to measure:








​
Same mechanical advantage, or perhaps LESS with this particular western curb. 2.5 or 3 to 1 is a pretty standard mechanical advantage in the curbs I've measured. I've seen as little as 2 to 1, and up to 5+ to one. But 2.5:1 or 3:1 seems to be a sweet spot. 

One MUST think about the style of riding to understand how bits work. How you plan to use it, how your horse is expected to move and carry itself, what you WANT from a bit - without those, a discussion of bits is meaningless.

@*boots* , I tried an elevator bit once. Twice, actually. The third time, Mia refused to open her mouth for it. Don't think it was because of the elevator action, but because of the thick and hollow mouthpiece that particular elevator bit had.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> One MUST think about the style of riding to understand how bits work. How you plan to use it, how your horse is expected to move and carry itself, what you WANT from a bit - without those, a discussion of bits is meaningless.
> .


I do not find bits discipline specific UNLESS one chooses to show, thereby agreeing to ride within the confines of whatever rules the governing body sets.

I use a pelham with two reins to work cattle. I exercisevery high dollar polo ponies in a Tom Thumb, or a halter with a couple lead ropes snapped on. Deal with it. 

I DO agree that bits impact movement and for that reason a discussion on bits is useful. Not all of us choose to be constrained in our riding by outside influences.

I feel strongly about people seeking discussion about what they've tried and their experiences with various items of tack. It's all about the horse, after all.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> You know @*Smilie* you don’t like this thread, go make your own one to discuss Western bits, and stop trying to derail mine....it was building so well, but again you want to divide and not unite.
> 
> You know the reason why I started it? Because there was a great discussion building in this thread
> 
> ...


Wrong
In the other thread, you said you wanted a broad discussion on bits, and that was the sole basis of my comment. 
Sorry if I mis under stood your intent.

I'll pass on your suggestion, as you obviously took my comment as not constructive, when I made it in context of discussing all bits, and actually thought I was putting in a useful comment,


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

boots said:


> I do not find bits discipline specific UNLESS one chooses to show, thereby agreeing to ride within the confines of whatever rules the governing body sets...


I haven't said ANYTHING about disciplines. So...let me give an example:

I sometimes ride Bandit in a solid shank, low port curb. He does fine with it. He isn't unhappy, abused, or bothered. The bit is hanging with the other bits, in a bridle, ready to be used.

But MOST of my issues with Bandit involve lateral direction, not rate. That is a function of where we ride. So while I still use the solid-shank curb at times, I mostly use a snaffle. He can be ridden in either, successfully and without stress. But a single-joint O-ring snaffle is a very good option for how we ride.

If one wants to use a curb bit as a signal bit, then how it rests at the neutral position is important. If one doesn't care, then design won't matter.

A guy in his mid-80s who raised and trained horses most of his life - and well, I'm told - told me to throw away all my snaffles and just use only a solid shank low port curb. Said after his first year, that was the ONLY bit he ever used on any horse. And people who rode his horses said they were very good trail horses.

But I didn't throw away all my snaffles because I think snaffles make sense for some situations - a more functional design for certain goals. I'll use my truck later to go to work. It is fine for that. But if all I wanted was a vehicle to use for work, an economy car would be a better design. I just cannot afford both.

I guess it depends on if this is a thread discussing bits, or a thread to show off bits we like. I thought it was the former. If it is the latter, I'll drop off because it will hold no interest to me.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

boots said:


> I'm interested in peoples' experience with "elevator" bits. Those are something I've not used. I don't think ever.


I used a Happy Mouth dutch gag for an Irish mare who did not like snaffles, most likely from previous hard hands, and she would basically fight against it and lack brakes lol. She was in her mid twenties and I didn't see the point of training her to accept the snaffle again as we were riding out long distance and I would mostly use one hand with her anyway. She was always soft and responsive with the dutch gag.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I think it is very difficult to include all bits under just one topic, and should be divided ,far as use, judgement of severity, (taking the variable of the hands on the reins out of the equation), as to whether that bit is being used with one hand, no constant contract, or with two hands, and some degree of contact at all times
> Therefore, I think two separate topics are required, one which goes into different bits used English, or with contact and bits used western with no constant contact, esp beyond the snaffle stage, and ridden one handed.
> I don't see how you could broadly discuss bits without this separation into two categories of riding





Smilie said:


> Wrong
> In the other thread, you said you wanted a broad discussion on bits, and that was the sole basis of my comment.
> Sorry if I mis under stood your intent.
> 
> I'll pass on your suggestion, as you obviously took my comment as not constructive, when I made it in context of discussing all bits, and actually thought I was putting in a useful comment,


Where am I wrong? you CLEARLY say here that two separate topics are needed, and go on to say English and Western, so how is your comment promoting a broad discussion?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

One of my favorite parts about starting new horses is deciding what bit they like. 

My 3 favorite bits(not for starting, just in general) are bauchers, Waterfords, and fulmers. I rarely use them, so when I say favorite is more in the manner of that I really like the concept of them and how they function. They are also relatively unknown or misunderstood.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

boots said:


> I'm interested in peoples' experience with "elevator" bits. Those are something I've not used. I don't think ever.


Help me out with defining 'Elevator bit' a term I am very familair with, then it suddenly hits me that I can't describe one.......<- feeling stupid!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Help me out with defining 'Elevator bit' a term I am very familair with, then it suddenly hits me that I can't describe one.......<- feeling stupid!


That makes two of us! I suspect there is no definitive definition, just like we see jointed mouthpiece bits with shanks called both snaffles and curbs. 

But, I'd like to read the what's and why's from people who have an opinion on them.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> Help me out with defining 'Elevator bit' a term I am very familair with, then it suddenly hits me that I can't describe one......._*<- feeling stupid!*_


_*Never.....

*_And you know what it is, and can describe it but are now accustomed to a slightly different terminology/word...
_GAG bit...._

Now, a true elevator bit is different than a gag but has many of the same principles and ways it works.
Elevator bits that I was familiar with had a hole aligned through a ring {where headstall and rein attached} that a round cord would slip and slide affording the similar action as a gag bit.
You needed shorter cheek pieces to attach that long leather covered wing to also...









Today, the "old" style elevator has morphed into a _gag bit_...however, still used or overused by to many and for not training but quick fixes in holes in the education of many horses and for that matter many riders.
You don't continually ride a gag bit on a horse...you use a gag bit as a tool when training and working a issue but you daily ride in a much simpler, kinder bit.
Again, riders hands have much to do with the skills taught to the horse...but today it is to common to see horses ridden haphazardly in a bit that can apply a awful lot of pressure to them instead of training and closing the missing links in their education.
For that matter, those who use these kinds of bits also need educating in what ring attached to the rein does what...yikes!!
_jmo...
:runninghorse2:*....*
_


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

I used this style:










Basicly a bit that works with poll pressure.









The lower the ring, the more pressure.

Not allowed in dressage as ridden in contact creates a false headset with the head squeezing action, not encouraging working from behind.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Mmm, makes it very clear, both gag and curb in a way....I saw someone warming up at the barn using roundings on a set up like that...said her horse went well in it....looked odd to me.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Basicly it should be used if you need more brakes temporarily or more control in certain environment, but not meant for riding in constant contact. Can be very useful for jumping.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Interesting. So that old Wonder Bit could be termed an elevator bit?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@ApuetsoT Why do you like those styles of bits? I love to hear why people use the bits they use, particularly if they're not that common (I mean, tons of people ride in a smooth snaffle for instance ... not so in a fulmer!)

-- Kai


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have used the western version of the elevator bit.
Found it handy for horses who want to hide their heads on their chest. It will not lift shoulders or the back but it will keep one from hiding his head.
Used it help fix the issue then switch to a different bit. Another I have but don't use as an every day or every ride bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Gag bits have been brought up. We have a bannana gag a well know cutting horse trainer built before gag bits got popular with barrel racing crowd.
It looks scary but it really isn't.
It can be ridden with or without a curb strap/chain. It works off the poll and lips before the bars of the mouth. Of course curb adjustment dictates when the mouthpiece and jaw comes into play.

We've used it on young horses, it doesn't scare them at all.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can I use one post to put in two things? one as a member, and one as a moderator? 

First, as a member, I love it when people share in a thread like this , based on their OWN actual experience, instead of just rephrasing what is written in a book.

Second, as a moderator, Please, if you post a quote from a book, please note that this IS a quote from somewhere else (not your own musings), and offer the title if possible, or even a link to the source ( as long as it's not from another social networking site)

Thanks.


My own experience with bits is limited. I have never really used a curb, except a Tom Thumb, and the horse was always behind the vertical, overcurled and stressed, and would run through it easily. I am sure that was a combo of the bit and my not riding well, though.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> My own experience with bits is limited. I have never really used a curb, except a Tom Thumb, and the horse was always behind the vertical, overcurled and stressed, and would run through it easily. I am sure that was a combo of the bit and my not riding well, though.


I was worried about that with Fergie, and was actually surprised how well she went in it and how quickly I adapted to riding in it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I've seen a lot people ride in a Tom Thumb and not well so I'll admit my experience and opinion is based soley on that. (Plus general bit mechanics)
I've seen people claim that their horse ride well in one. If I see someone do it and do it well perhaps my opinion of the bit would change. I know I shouldn't be so judgmental as I posted a couple bits most people could say the same as I feel about the TT.
@Golden Horse, in you're OP you mentioned you were worried about your Baroque bit being too much like the TT. Not in my opinion. By the mouthpiece it's not plus the fact the style of the cheeks put the weight of the bit behind the mouthpiece allowing the horse to find the balance of it in most likely a more natural spot for her. Also being swept back makes it slower to engage.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> @*Golden Horse* , in you're OP you mentioned you were worried about your Baroque bit being too much like the TT. Not in my opinion. By the mouthpiece it's not p*lus the fact the style of the cheeks put the weight of the bit behind the mouthpiece allowing the horse to find the balance of it in most likely a more natural spot for her. Also being swept back makes it slower to engage*.


I'm going to confess something that will be embarassing, and reveal how ignorant I am; I do not get it.

I do not understand WHY a TT 'engages' any quicker than a style with a more 'swept back' side piece, and, how it differs from a simple swept back to an "S' type. I mean, from a physics point of view, how one 'engages' faster than another. 

First of all, 'engage' means, as I understand it, make the mouthpiece 'roll' forward. ?

It seems to me that even though there is a bend in the shank of one, that it is still attached to the mouth piece. if a person has some slack in the rein, they start lifting the rein, the slack is removed until there begins to be tautness. then, enough pressure so that the ring where in the rein is attached starts to move backward and upward. the amount that the mouthpiece rolls is connected to the amount that the ring at the base of the shaft moves, no? I just don't understand how the 'roll' felt in the mouth is any less or later in one than the other. 
@bsms where are you??? can you explain with pretty colored lines and numbers so that I can not feel like the only one that doesn't get it????


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I'm going to confess something that will be embarassing, and reveal how ignorant I am; I do not get it.
> 
> I do not understand WHY a TT 'engages' any quicker than a style with a more 'swept back' side piece, and, how it differs from a simple swept back to an "S' type. I mean, from a physics point of view, how one 'engages' faster than another.
> 
> ...


Well if we've learned anything from my years on the forum, weve learned I'm not very articulate...Lol

Let me try again. I don't think I'm using my words.

So you mentioned when you've seen a TT used the horse was curled.
When you look at the balance of a TT, due to the shanks the horse needs to be on the vertical to find neutral on a slack rein.
When you pick up the reins the horse has to go behind the vertical to match the new balance.
If you look at other bits where the balance is different, allowing the horse to hold its nose out farther when the reins are picked up the horse is allowed more room or time to come to vertical. To me that makes the bit more forgiving or slower. 
Of course curb strap adjustment plays a roll as to when the jaw and bar pressure comes into play but not necessarily when the port does. The balance plus the angle and height of port in relation to the cannon bars are factors to consider.
In my opinion....


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Kaifyre said:


> @ApuetsoT Why do you like those styles of bits? I love to hear why people use the bits they use, particularly if they're not that common (I mean, tons of people ride in a smooth snaffle for instance ... not so in a fulmer!)
> 
> -- Kai


To be clear, I don't often use those bits. All I use right now is a french link Loose ring. Those bits all have pretty unique functions that can be very nice depending on the horse. 

Waterfords have a cool combination of being formless and hard for them to grab, but without being harsh like a traditional chain mouthpiece. I used one on a strong, red headed mare I jumped. She was thick and knew she was stronger than me. Rode her in the waterford for 2 weeks, then went back to her loose ring. She was golden after that with the occasional reminder ride. It's not a bit for everyone. If you ride off the hands, it's not for you. Imo, it's not a bit you plan to stay in, more of a correction bit, but there are always horses who just prefer it.

Bauchers are so misunderstood. I rode in a clinic a while ago and used it. Pony went great in it, no issues. First ride, the clinician starts telling me how harsh of a bit it is and that it's basically a gag, ect. Tells me to change it for the rest of the weekend. So I change it... to a full cheek with keepers (which as pretty similar, but is more accepted). I've run into the same reaction plenty since. It's a cool bit because of how it sits in the mouth. The way the ring attaches to the cheek piece keeps it very still and hold it up off the tongue. Everyone thinks it adds poll pressure, but if you look, it actually _removes _poll pressure. (There is a youtube video of someone measuring the pressure during use, as well as a Neue Schule(??) document with their own research).

Fulmers are pretty uncommon over here. They're lovely though. Started my current horse in one, it's a great baby bit. It combines the traditional loose ring with a full cheek. No need to choose lateral pressure over a mobile bit any longer. It's a traditional bit in the Spanish Riding School (and used with a drop noseband), and is in general more common over in Europe. Ended up having to order mine from overseas. Beyond that, they are like a regular loose ring snaffle but with more support for babies. This is another I don't view as a forever bit. Once they know their basics, you can transition them out to a regular loose ring.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> @*Golden Horse* , in you're OP you mentioned you were worried about your Baroque bit being too much like the TT. Not in my opinion. By the mouthpiece it's not plus the fact the style of the cheeks put the weight of the bit behind the mouthpiece allowing the horse to find the balance of it in most likely a more natural spot for her. Also being swept back makes it slower to engage.


I guess it is the swept back bit I come back to. It is a beautiful bit, and does feel nicely balanced, but if you draw a line from ring to ring, there isn't much sweep.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Great thread! Open discussion of bits of all kinds for all horses! 

IMO bits can suffer or shine based on current trends or fads might be a better word.

Back when Tom Thumb bits first came out, it was advertised as an "in between" bit for a horse used to a snaffle to learn how a curb works. It was felt to be a kinder way to introduce the curb action to a horse. 

So that is where I learned about those bits, and I used them for years and years. Honestly, I still would if I wanted the curb action. 

Most of the horses I have bought have been ones that no-one else wanted. I got them cheap and got them going good. Most were sold, some I kept. 

Almost all the horses came with a curb bit and they would fling their noses to the sky. Had several that would rear-up. One of the very first things I would do is put them in a Tom thumb, preferably a copper mouth, and they would suddenly stop tossing their heads. They would be calmer the first ride and be much more willing to take the bit after a few rides. 

The only time one of my horse reacted badly to the Tom Thumb is when my DD forgot to put the curb strap on and rode the Saddlebred gelding in a saddleseat class. She had no breaks :eek_color: and was rather put out that the horse was sticking his nose out and up and going much faster than she intended!! 

My current favorite bit that I put every horse in is a nickel-free German silver double-jointed bean snaffle with O-rings. I have a pile of them in sizes from 4.5" to 6". 

My horses seem to react the same to a copper mouth as a SS mouth, but they do a little better if started in a copper mouth first. 

The Tom Thumb bit was mostly used with direct reining, although we could neck rein them too. It seemed to be a good bit to teach neck reining. 


So I am one of those that just doesn't believe it is a harsh bit...

First is Tom Thumb, Second picture is snaffle


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

will add that most of the curb bits we used back then had quite long shanks or else were the $5 bits that would rust.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Well if we've learned anything from my years on the forum, weve learned I'm not very articulate...Lol
> 
> Let me try again. I don't think I'm using my words.
> 
> ...



I thought that was perfectly articulate!!! and , you explained what is missing, talk of the balance of the rein, due to gravity pulling on the reins themselves.

in terms of how quickly any pressure 'engages' the bit, they ARE equal, in the sense that they act on the bit the minute slack is taken out . . however, due to the balance of the bit (due to position of the shanks with regard to the center of the balance, the fulcrum of the teeter-tooter), the TT will already be in a slight engagement all the time that the horse does not have it's head in a vertical position. . . whereas the other bits allow that nuetral place to be in more natural position.

NOW I see!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Golden I really love the side pieces on that bit. They are a work of art. 

I'll have to get pictures of the combination but like Dreamcatcher Arabians in post #12 I use the Myler bit (mouth pieces) for mine. Copper inlay and roller. I start work in a combination bit (same mouth piece add in a chin strap and nose piece). They have the option of a curb with a ring so you can go with either direct or indirect action. That bit can also be used with two reins like a pelham. They move into a bridle with the comfort snaffle (D ring) unless they are going on the street driving then I use a military elbow on the mouthpiece. Everyone gets started the same with just the simple bit to get used to something in their mouth then they go to ground driving. The drafts are started around 18 - 24 moths. The saddle horses 24 - 30. It really just depends on if they are mentally ready. I can start earlier or later. between 18 and 24 months they fit in the horse bit so I don't have a draft combination bit. Once they get into a draft size then all of mine have used a low port. That is what they like. Look at the shape of the mouth. There are some decent tutorials on fitting Myler bits.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I am strictly a trail rider -- I ride with one hand and my horses learn to neck rein with a light touch. I was taught years and years ago to NOT ride the horse's head ---- stay out of its mouth unless I need the horse to do something different.

That means I apply the KISS principle to head gear. I either ride with a low port curb attached to swivel shanks or a mechanical hackamore.

The exceptions to the curb bit would be horses with thick tongues, low palettes or, like my good friend's sweet trail horse who had its tongue ripped nearly clear off by an Amish "trainer" before she bought the horse. She ended up calling the Myler bit company and after an hour of conversation, they sent a bit that worked. It cost $80 quite a few years ago but the horse is happy, she has light hands and their trail riding life is good.

IMHO too many people are heavy handed and try to find bits to accommodate their own issue they don't want to admit to, regardless of what venue the horse has been trained for. My grandfather used to call that heavy-handed action "sawing the horse's mouth"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ... @*bsms* where are you??? can you explain with pretty colored lines and numbers so that I can not feel like the only one that doesn't get it????


It has already been addressed, clearly. But that is part of where how one wishes to ride affects things. 

If one rides with constant contact, the reins will rotate the bit - any curb bit - until the curb strap has tightened. One cannot have reins in a straight line with a curb bit without rotating the bit enough to engage the curb strap. Thus it doesn't matter if the shanks are straight or curved.

But if one desires that period of free rotation prior to the curb strap tightening and pressure being applied - the signal phase - then the balance of the bit (including the shape of the shanks) is important.

Of course...I rode this horse a year before I took this picture. I was told before mounting the horse didn't like too much rein - which would be an insult, except the guy had never seen me ride so it was just a friendly warning.








​ 
Traditional Tom Thumb bit. The day I rode the horse last year, it didn't even have a curb strap on it. For how that horse is ridden, just about ANY bit will do. If you work sheep with him...well, he knows the job better than me anyways. Doesn't need much guidance! And he eats along the way.

OTOH, Bandit has an odd mouth. The corner of his lips is right above his canines. Finding a bit that doesn't pull his lips back like The Joker while also not hitting his teeth is tough. He's learned to carry his bit on his own, but I think he gets tired of it. Bandit does OK in Tom Thumbs, Billy Allens and a solid shank curb, is good with an O-ring snaffle...but I've been trying some bitless options lately. With him, bit choice really comes down to one that won't stretch his lips too much while still avoiding his canine teeth. Since he hasn't spooked bad in ages, or tried to run away from anything in a couple of years now, bitless is a reasonable option to try. As I try different bitless options, the O-ring and solid shank low port curb are my standby bits. I've spent $50 buying them both. For what I do, those two bits could probably last me a lifetime.

PS: Bandit in a jumping cavesson. Works pretty good with him so far, but trying a Dr Cook's as well. Not a bit, but bits were an important part of getting him to where I felt good trying bitless:








​


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I guess it is the swept back bit I come back to. It is a beautiful bit, and does feel nicely balanced, but if you draw a line from ring to ring, there isn't much sweep.


When I look at it I see, because of the "S" in the cheek, there's a more cheek behind the mouthpiece than a TT.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> I am strictly a trail rider -- I ride with one hand and my horses learn to neck rein with a light touch. I was taught years and years ago to NOT ride the horse's head ---- stay out of its mouth unless I need the horse to do something different.
> 
> That means I apply the KISS principle to head gear. I either ride with a low port curb attached to swivel shanks or a mechanical hackamore.


I am interested why using the KISS principle leads you to a curb bit? If you are a trail rider, not riding the head, why not stick to a snaffle? You can neck rein just as easy with a snaffle? 

Please don't read any sort of snark into the question, it is out of genuine interest, from someone who, when they were trail riding, rode in a snaffle.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> I am interested why using the KISS principle leads you to a curb bit? If you are a trail rider, not riding the head, why not stick to a snaffle? You can neck rein just as easy with a snaffle?
> 
> Please don't read any sort of snark into the question, it is out of genuine interest, from someone who, when they were trail riding, rode in a snaffle.


Because that's how I was raised, lollol. I think this one of those things that old spots don't change. We used snaffle bits for driving and back in the 50's and 60's all the farm kids had for bits were those $5 bits that rusted, that someone else mentioned, lollol. As years progressed and so did the improvement of curb bits, I eventually evolved to low port curbs with swivel shanks.

We rode bareback most of the time and learned to use a lot of body cues instead of sitting on the reins. Even that had to be subtle contact that "even the man on a galloping horse" couldn't see, or grandad was standing there shaking his head --- and if we still didn't get "being quiet" his neck would turn purple clear up to his forehead --- at us kids, never the horse, lollol

I have a plethora of other types of bits in an old tack box. The horses I bought them for, never worked well in them and maybe that was partly my fault because mentally I did not want to change. Those were the horses who came to me already functioning well in mechanical hackamores, so I ended up leaving them in hackamores.

I should also say, in my defense, that anyone I grew up trail riding with also used low port curb bits, likely because they were also farm kids and that's all we knew, lol


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> Because that's how I was raised, lollol


 Yeah, that is why up until about 10 years ago all I had was single joint snaffles, and mullen mouth pelhams, because that is what I knew. I can't believe it took me so long, and the purchase of a random box of bits at an auction, to discover French Link snaffles.

Now I am more open to trying new things, I love having a trainer with so many bits, we can try different ones.

General Question, I have seen lots of people say they like Myler bits, so do I, I think they feel great, I just never have had a horse that really goes well in them. Anyone else have horses that seem underwhelmed by them.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Now I am more open to trying new things, I love having a trainer with so many bits, we can try different ones.
> 
> General Question, I have seen lots of people say they like Myler bits, so do I, I think they feel great, I just never have had a horse that really goes well in them. Anyone else have horses that seem underwhelmed by them.


I tip my hat to you for being open to change

I hate change,lollol

The only reason I bought new living room furniture several years ago was because the dog ate the couch,lollol.

However, you could walk into my house 1, 5, 10, or more years later and the furniture may be different but it will be positioned the same way.

The lady who owns the horse that had its tongue ripped almost completely off, uses a Myler the company recommended for that horse. He goes well in it. I don't know of anyone else who uses Myler bits.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I've never had a horse who didn't like Myler bits. Now that said, they may not have cared for a particular Myler, but eventually I have found what they like. Or, if they aren't great in the snaffle, they usually LIKE the Robart Pinchless Correction that I go to from the snaffle. Sometimes, they prefer a more advanced bit over the snaffle, they like the "pre-signal" that comes with the advancement in bit. I just tend to fool around until I find what they like and they let me know, pretty darn quick if they do or don't like a certain bit.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't like snaffle bits. 

There. It's out!

I like French Link or dogbone snaffles only a little more than I like the single jointed snaffle. Though heaven only knows how many times I've ridden horses with snaffle bits!

I prefer the feel and action of a Kimberwick with no joint, even with young horses. I have the reins attached with little to no curb action. I had a boss who called them "Boots's un-jointed snaffles."


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Having to rack my brain, I have owned some kimberwicks, but never have ridden in one that I can remember.....MUST of done..Why do you like them over a mullen mouth or straight bar eggbutt? I presume that you are using the slots so making them act like a baby curb?


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

This thread is timely as I am doing a lot of experimentation for the 10-year-old mare I've had for about 3 months now. We have two goals: limited distance endurance rides (25 mile trails over varied terrain) and training level dressage. She is a fairly green 10 year old; she's done lots of trail riding and some 4H/IHSA hunter jumper shows with teens. Before I got her, she'd been off for about a year with a foal. She's a very independent horse and can get tense when overwhelmed.

She has a massive head and to me, there is something weird about how small the lower half of her mouth looks compared to the rest of that noggin :wink:









For a sense of how she moves, this is the first time I ever rode her when testing her out at the seller's, and I think it gives you a sense of how she'd like to go if mostly left to her own devices:









Once I got her home, I just kept her in what her previous owner had her in, a straightforward d-ring with a lozenge, like this one:








I admit to buying the cheepo brand because I didn't know if she'd like it.

She does fine with it out on the trail, she is mostly responsive, she bends ok negotiating obstacles and has a decent if not always stop-on-a-dime whoa. And, since I haven't had her that long I haven't yet had her out in a big, exciting group ride moving at speed- we've mostly just been happy hackers on woods trails that don't allow for much more than a big trot. In the indoor, she gets very strong in it- she likes to "go," so as we work from trot to canter she throws her nose up and out to run through it making downward transitions challenging. 

I am taking lessons with an excellent instructor and having this discussion with her in real life, and working on teaching my horse to stop with seat as well (this seemed like a very foreign concept to her, but she's learning). She is also struggling to learn elementary lateral work, it seems like in her prior education leg anywhere just meant "faster," so having a good conversation with the bit in conjunction with the new leg cues she's learning would be helpful.

Since things are just "ok" with the current bit, and brakes are touchy, I've been exploring whether there might be something better for her. I also wonder if the current bit is just too fat in her mouth?

In the past week, I've tried just a simple 12 mm d-ring single jointed snaffle and a single jointed baucher (we decided to start in the single jointed realm first and then move on from there). In the basic d-ring, she seemed mainly the same as the original d-ring lozenge. The first few downward transitions, she was pretty prompt, but then after she got used to it, she started throwing the nose up and out and plowing ahead again. Today I tried the baucher, and she was very clear she did NOT like how that felt- gaping her mouth, curling her head to her chest, and getting really resentful (pinned ears and swishing tail) when asked to whoa. So that seems like a no-go. From here, I think we explore other types of mouthpieces...

Like I said- I do have a trainer and help on the ground, but figured I'd see what the knowledgeable folks here think. What might you try with a horse like this, and what kind of response might you look for to see if it's a good match?

PS- I don't want anyone to read into this that I'm looking for a bit to "solve" the problems of better downward transitions and good lateral responses. I'm working on the overall package of my riding, her training, AND our equipment. Just would love to hear suggestions on bits that might be a helpful part of the puzzle :grin:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

From a quick read seems like she doesn't care for the single joint that much, maybe a mullen mouth, no joint would work....This is where access to the bit bank helps...

Example I had my Arab in a French link Eggbut snaffle, when my so called trainer at the time told me it was illegal for dressage, and I would have to use a loose ring....wham, from soft and responsive to heavy in my hand and no brakes, just from the change in cheek piece...who would have thought?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

From what you're describing, she sounds like she's not real 'broke in the face'. I put mine in a surcingle with 1 side rein and lunge them. I start with the rein loose at first so they don't bang their face while they get used to the side rein. Then I start bringing it back one hole at a time until they learn that when they throw the nose out and try to run through the bit, they bang their face hard, themselves. Once they have started to lighten up and keep their nose slightly in front of vertical, I add the 2nd rein on the outside, and start the one hole at a time thing until they are used to having the 2 reins and have learned to carry the bit without doing the reaching for the stars thing. Once they are ok with the 2 side reins, I put driving lines on them and we do lots of ground driving and up/down transitions and whoa. I don't get on until they have a good solid whoa and understand up/down transitions without fuss. A horse who throws their nose up and runs through the bit is a personal pet peeve and either they get over it quick or they go live somewhere else. When a horse evades the bit that way you have absolutely NO control over them.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I agree with trying the mullen mouth, in a small but not too small diameter. They are good for horses with low palates

We used to use those for driving, or an mullen Liverpool bit for the tougher mouthed ones, but I'm not sure I ever knew it was called a Liverpool - they looked a little different then. 

The Liverpool, for when one has to stop a hard-mouthed draft in harness:


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you @GoldenHorse, @DreamCatcherArabians & @AnitaAnne. So now it’s my turn to admit I don’t know anything about a Mullen mouth except it’s a solid bar as the mouthpiece. What about that might be promising for a horse without a willing whoa?

Dreamcatcher, we have just started some brief lunging in sidereins set very loose-BO suggested that as well. She does a lot of long lining with her training clients and it’s sometbing I could ask her to give me a lesson on. I always feel like I have 3 left hands when lunging and I can imagine that’s only magnified with two lines in hand.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

egrogan said:


> She has a massive head and to me, there is something weird about how small the lower half of her mouth looks compared to the rest of that noggin :wink:


Definitely look inside and see how thick her tongue looks, and where her canines are. 








I've run across several horses that have a short mouth like your mare and also the canines are fairly high. I think one of @bsms' horses is also like this? 
It can be a trick finding the right bit. For some reason the short mouthed horse seems less likely to want any wrinkles in the lips, so they want the bit a little lower, but also it still has to stay clear of those canines. 
I've found that a thinner but stable mouthpiece is helpful for this.
My newest ride Rascal has the same issues and is very particular. He likes a Myler mouthpiece that has some curve in it but is also thin. 
I haven't had good luck with a completely straight mouthpiece, having had many horses that preferred tongue relief.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

egrogan said:


> Thank you @GoldenHorse, @DreamCatcherArabians & @AnitaAnne. So now it’s my turn to admit I don’t know anything about a Mullen mouth except it’s a solid bar as the mouthpiece. What about that might be promising for a horse without a willing whoa?
> 
> Dreamcatcher, we have just started some brief lunging in sidereins set very loose-BO suggested that as well. She does a lot of long lining with her training clients and it’s sometbing I could ask her to give me a lesson on. I always feel like I have 3 left hands when lunging and I can imagine that’s only magnified with two lines in hand.


Some horse with smaller mouths or low palates do not like jointed bits. The mullen snaffle is just a bit stronger and horse seem to like it. Look for one with a little bit of curve to it though as opposed to a totally straight bit. 

Had a TB/Appy mare that worked best in a D-ring roller jointed snaffle. Playing with the rollers helped keep her calm. As she progressed in her training I was able to put her back in a jointed snaffle without issue. At that time no rollers were allowed in Dressage, and it was before the double jointed bits too.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

egrogan said:


> Thank you @GoldenHorse, @DreamCatcherArabians & @AnitaAnne. So now it’s my turn to admit I don’t know anything about a Mullen mouth except it’s a solid bar as the mouthpiece. What about that might be promising for a horse without a willing whoa?
> 
> Dreamcatcher, we have just started some brief lunging in sidereins set very loose-BO suggested that as well. She does a lot of long lining with her training clients and it’s sometbing I could ask her to give me a lesson on. I always feel like I have 3 left hands when lunging and I can imagine that’s only magnified with two lines in hand.


Does your BO have a round pen? If so, you can start out free lunging in the round pen while she gets accustomed to the side rein. Quick note, I only use one to begin with, with the nose flippers, because sometimes when you put 2 on right away they get scared and feel trapped. I haven't had one do that when I start with 1 rein and add the 2nd later. Once I can do both reins and they have learned to drop their nose to vertical (I don't tighten down all the way to vertical) to get relief from the bit, then we can start to drive. If you're not confident with lunging, have your BO teach you without using and side reins, the horse can be bitted up but put a halter on for the lunge line. That way, no matter how clumsy you are, you won't be banging up her face.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

egrogan said:


> Thank you @*Gold* enHorse, @*DreamCatcher* Arabians & @*AnitaAnne* . So now it’s my turn to admit I don’t know anything about a Mullen mouth except it’s a solid bar as the mouthpiece. What about that might be promising for a horse without a willing whoa?


Not sure about the others but my suggestion is based on the fact that experience shows me that is a bit well tolerated by the short mouthed types. I'm thinking in two stages, find something that reacts less strongly too, then work on the brakes. What you are describing sounds more like general evasion than bad brakes.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> What you are describing sounds more like general evasion than bad brakes.


Agreed! Another thing you can do, is teach the horse to flex to both sides from the ground first. Teach the horse to give to the bit and 1 rein. Then do it sitting on the horse but not asking for movement. Then you work on the 1 Rein Emergency Whoa at the walk. Then work up to the Trot etc, etc. If you can get the horse to yield, you can teach them to stop. I think I said before, I won't get on a horse with no whoa. We do it from the ground and then work on it from the saddle, in a fairly confined area, so they can't build up too much of a head of steam until you're sure of them.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Are you open, @*egrogan* , to trying a Billy Allen curb? A horse cannot get its own relief by sticking its nose up and out with a curb bit. Just keep giving light bumps, 2-3/second, until it yields. Then release. I understand it isn't a dressage bit, but it sounds like you are looking for a good design to teach a horse it makes sense to slow when asked. Mia was a confirmed bolter, but a Billy Allen helped break her of the habit, and she later mostly slowed well with a snaffle too.

This one has worked well for me:








​ 
https://www.statelinetack.com/item/bob-avila-straight-roller-training-bit/E003287/​ 
Mine is sitting in the garage...could mail it to you, if interested. If it didn't help, just mail it back. BTW - it looks like it would pinch, but it hasn't. Not even with Bandit's fleshy lips. This one:

Weaver Sweet Iron Medium Port Curb Bit​
isn't supposed to be for two handed riding. That is part of why I stopped using it except on trails. But to be honest...Bandit doesn't seem to know it can't be used with two hands.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Having to rack my brain, I have owned some kimberwicks, but never have ridden in one that I can remember.....MUST of done..Why do you like them over a mullen mouth or straight bar eggbutt? I presume that you are using the slots so making them act like a baby curb?


I do like mullens with the right mouthpiece for the horse. Not super fond on straight bars since it doesn't fit how I like in most mouths. I've ridden a few horses in a straight bar, per owner/trainer preference, they didn't carry themselves naturally (like they moved when at pasture). Almost as if they were having to adjust their head carriage in order to find a spot for the bit.

Oddly, I use the kimberwick like a mullen mouth. I don't attach reins to engage the curb. 

Sometimes I think about how adaptable horses are with what we do with them. I compare it to those horses that were taught to jump off platforms into large tanks of water. Amazing what they put up with.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Here you go.
> 
> View attachment 950565
> 
> ...


Oh those dragons almost make me want a curb!

Seriously tho, I think most horses (IME at least) tend to like a double jointed rather than single jointed mouthpiece better. I wonder, have you tried a double jointed snaffle, rather than having one with leverage too? 

If I felt the need for leverage(or for that matter, any heavy bit pressure) for control, then I'd be considering the horse needed a lot more training on the basics, before putting ANY bit on them personally. But of course, if it's not about control, but for specific headset 'refinement', then curbs do tend to help make that easier.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

loosie said:


> Oh those dragons almost make me want a curb!
> 
> Seriously tho, I think most horses (IME at least) tend to like a double jointed rather than single jointed mouthpiece better. I wonder, have you tried a double jointed snaffle, rather than having one with leverage too?
> 
> If I felt the need for leverage(or for that matter, any heavy bit pressure) for control, then I'd be considering the horse needed a lot more training on the basics, before putting ANY bit on them personally. But of course, if it's not about control, but for specific headset 'refinement', then curbs do tend to help make that easier.


One reason I like a pelham with two reins is that I can ride off the snaffle rein. Usually that's all I'll ever touch. I ride one-handed, with the curb reins low. IF I need an emergency stop or turn, only to avoid a wreck when working cattle or playing polo, I can turn my hand inward (ulnar deviate) and get the curb action. I rarely do. Maybe twice this past year?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

loosie said:


> Oh those dragons almost make me want a curb!
> 
> Seriously tho, I think most horses (IME at least) tend to like a double jointed rather than single jointed mouthpiece better. I wonder, have you tried a double jointed snaffle, rather than having one with leverage too?
> 
> If I felt the need for leverage(or for that matter, any heavy bit pressure) for control, then I'd be considering the horse needed a lot more training on the basics, before putting ANY bit on them personally. But of course, if it's not about control, but for specific headset 'refinement', then curbs do tend to help make that easier.


Yup tried a French link, a ball jointed snaffle and a myler snaffle, and she was OK in all of them, it was only when we put the curb on that we found softness.

It wasn't a route I would have taken, my coach had to talk me into trying it, and it just worked really well for us, and yes for her it was for refinement nothing about control at all. If I was to take her out on a trail ride I will be using a snaffle, maybe a pelham, so if I needed to take a pull I could. It is really really hard to explain, but now I have a mare who is working from behind, and is able to self carry her head...It has been an amazing revelation for me, just how little you have to do when everything is right.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> It is really really hard to explain, but now I have a mare who is working from behind, and is able to self carry her head...


Something to do with how it encourages her to hold her *tongue* maybe... I didn't get the idea of a certain bit enhancing/enabling *true* vertical collection until(well, TBH still don't quite, but...) I did a whole horse dissection workshop, and one thing the teacher had us all take in turns to feel was putting our fingers on the tongue while another moved a hind leg, or putting pressure on the tongue in different ways while we were holding/feeling the hind quarters ~ it's connected intimately... somehow, so that different tongue pressure effects the hind end & vice versa.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Definitely look inside and see how thick her tongue looks, and where her canines are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mares don't usually have canines.


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

So far I have my guy in a french link loose ring bit, and it seems to be working pretty well for the both of us. I am pretty curious about trying a baucher on him, since I've noticed that at times, he seems to be quite mouthy with his loose ring. I am wondering if that is because its mobility in his mouth.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Mares don't usually have canines.


Something like a quarter of mares? I think. They're usually smaller than in geldings. Some people think it can mean the mare is more dominant, but I haven't seen that correlation myself.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

I use this one in 125mm, the flat part rests on the tongue. 









Most of the horses seem to go well in oval mouth snaffle. 

I had a Happy Mouth double jointed before, but my mare chewed it in pieces.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> Some horse with smaller mouths or low palates do not like jointed bits. The mullen snaffle is just a bit stronger and horse seem to like it. Look for one with a little bit of curve to it though as opposed to a totally straight bit.
> 
> Had a TB/Appy mare that worked best in a D-ring roller jointed snaffle. Playing with the rollers helped keep her calm. As she progressed in her training I was able to put her back in a jointed snaffle without issue. At that time no rollers were allowed in Dressage, and it was before the double jointed bits too.


I have the experience that the straight bar mullen mouth can be too thick for small mouths. Experienced with Arabs and TBs and TBx.

Then again the double jointed ones can be easily chewed if that's what the horse likes.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Does your BO have a round pen? If so, you can start out free lunging in the round pen while she gets accustomed to the side rein. Quick note, I only use one to begin with, with the nose flippers, because sometimes when you put 2 on right away they get scared and feel trapped. I haven't had one do that when I start with 1 rein and add the 2nd later. Once I can do both reins and they have learned to drop their nose to vertical (I don't tighten down all the way to vertical) to get relief from the bit, then we can start to drive. If you're not confident with lunging, have your BO teach you without using and side reins, the horse can be bitted up but put a halter on for the lunge line. That way, no matter how clumsy you are, you won't be banging up her face.


There is a round pen, but it's an ice slick right now so will be some time before it's usable again.

You diagnosed Fizz to a T, she definitely is a horse that can feel trapped easily. We're also working on getting her better about tying right now. I was very nervous how she'd react to the sidereins but she hasn't shown any panicky behavior with them very loose. And yes, BO has me lunging her with the line on a rope halter right now so my clumsiness doesn't become the horse's problem.



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Another thing you can do, is teach the horse to flex to both sides from the ground first. Teach the horse to give to the bit and 1 rein. Then do it sitting on the horse but not asking for movement.


This is about all we did for our first lesson a month ago. She is SO resistant to bending through her body, but is getting better with the "give."

Have you been talking to my BO, since I feel like you know both me and Fizz and all our issues?! :wink:



Golden Horse said:


> What you are describing sounds more like general evasion than bad brakes.


Yes, thank you for putting it that way. I think you are right!



bsms said:


> Are you open, @*egrogan* , to trying a Billy Allen curb? A horse cannot get its own relief by sticking its nose up and out with a curb bit.
> 
> Mine is sitting in the garage...could mail it to you, if interested. If it didn't help, just mail it back.
> 
> ...isn't supposed to be for two handed riding. That is part of why I stopped using it except on trails. But to be honest...Bandit doesn't seem to know it can't be used with two hands.


That's a really nice offer @*bsms* . And, my first reaction is that I don't know if I could teach myself to ride without "two hands on the wheel" so to speak. I'm going to keep this in mind and see where we are in a couple of weeks as we continue to experiment. May be worth a try!



gottatrot said:


> Definitely look inside and see how thick her tongue looks, and where her canines are.


I will do some investigation inside to see what I can see. When we had the PPE done, she absolutely refused to let anyone handle her mouth even just to open it to look inside. Two vets and her original owner couldn't get it open and she was getting super distressed. I had her teeth done the first week she was with me (there were no issues in there so not sure what she had been so resistant to) but she was sedated. A couple of weeks ago, I figured I'd give it a try and see how she reacted, and she was fine about it. I was mostly focused on just the mechanics of having her let me open it, and was paying attention more to her eyes and ears to see if she was worried about it. But I'll look again and actually pay attention to what's inside.

This has all been hugely helpful and gives me a lot of good ideas for what to try next. Thanks everyone for taking the time to give suggestions! My first horse was so easy, she wants only a plain single jointed d-ring and is also happy bitless, so I never really had to give much thought to bit selection. This kind of experimentation is all new to me, but it's very interesting to try to figure out the mystery of what will be the best match.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

egrogan said:


> There is a round pen, but it's an ice slick right now so will be some time before it's usable again.
> 
> You diagnosed Fizz to a T, she definitely is a horse that can feel trapped easily. We're also working on getting her better about tying right now. I was very nervous how she'd react to the sidereins but she hasn't shown any panicky behavior with them very loose. And yes, BO has me lunging her with the line on a rope halter right now so my clumsiness doesn't become the horse's problem.
> 
> ...


I'm just going by the steps, how I break my horses vs what some trainers do and say a horse is broke. They may be broke in to the saddle and not squirt out from under you or from between your legs, but touch their face and it's Katy Bar The Door, nose goes to the moon, horse does a bolt and you're off to the races. When I was younger, would ride out a bolt and just keep on working. Now, I'm too old and have too many reminders of old, bad decisions to take those chances. What I'm describing to you is what I do to avoid things that shouldn't happen in a "broke" horse. The thing with the flexing is to limber up the horse, teach them to give and it will show you where they're being resistant and whether or not they're in the mental frame that you should be comfortable getting on them. A horse who won't flex or bend is not mentally where you want to be.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

My favorite discussion  BITS! Lol. Keep the knowledge coming everyone. I enjoyed reading everything so far. Plus this gives me an excuse to expand the bit bank!



ApuetsoT said:


> Fulmers are pretty uncommon over here. They're lovely though. Started my current horse in one, it's a great baby bit. It combines the traditional loose ring with a full cheek. No need to choose lateral pressure over a mobile bit any longer. It's a traditional bit in the Spanish Riding School (and used with a drop noseband), and is in general more common over in Europe. Ended up having to order mine from overseas. Beyond that, they are like a regular loose ring snaffle but with more support for babies. This is another I don't view as a forever bit. Once they know their basics, you can transition them out to a regular loose ring.


Interesting ApuestoT. I've collected a couple fulmers over the years because they also really interested me. They're just so different, but the concept seems fantastic. 

I decided to finally try one on my current gelding. We normally ride in a thinner loose ring single joint. After trying multiple different bits (mullen, lozenge, french link, full cheek, d ring) that's where we ended up. I like having separate bridles for dressage & jumping, but didn't have a second loose ring. Closest thing I had was the fulmer. Slightly thicker mouthpiece.

Your comment about a good starter/baby bit makes a lot of sense now that I think on it. My gelding goes well in his loose ring. Zero complaints, but we mostly jump with it. There is definitely something more stable about the fulmer without allowing him the ability to drop heavily on my hands. He can take the contact he needs. It's also kinda funny that he's basically going backwards. Jumping he doesn't need much from me. He's balanced, consistent - bit is just basically there to help rate speeds & turns. Dressage? Oh boy. He needs me there a bit more.
@egrogan - I don't have much to comment on the training aspect as much more experienced people than myself are helping there  That bit you pictured is the exact same one I started my gelding in. He did also did ok. Nothing to write home about. He just felt heavy & dull though. It sounds like it's not uncommon with that bit... my friends OTTB loved it *shrug*

Since you've already gone the single joint route I might try a myler style mouthpiece like suggested. A true mullen made my gelding get heavier/duller. Single joint thick loose ring was our breakthrough bit. Doesn't sound like it'll work for your mare though... Just thoughts


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> Something like a quarter of mares? I think. They're usually smaller than in geldings. Some people think it can mean the mare is more dominant, but I haven't seen that correlation myself.


My mare Ori is one of those! I bought her when she was 11, when I tried her out she was tossing her head a lot...I didn't like the bit they had her in but they also had NO idea when her teeth were last done! So I scheduled to have them floated ASAP when I got her home...Well vet found a wolf tooth on one side! He took it out and shes been much happier 
@egrogan Myler actually makes a 3 barrel mullen mouth piece. So it can be more rigid and straight like a mullen or when at rest it kind of curves with the mouth. I have one and both horses do pretty well in it! I've recently switched Jax to a Myler that has a larger port though. Orianna still likes the mullen. I could probably let you try it out if interested, they're expensive to buy and she hate it! I try to get most of my Mylers used off a facebook group though.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When I was young I spent too much time hanging out at a local riding school/dealer/competition yard in the UK. The owner bought horses and ponies in all shapes and sizes, breeds, temperament and level of training/not trained at all. The go to bit mouthpieces were either a single jointed snaffle, a mullen mouth or a low port.
I don't remember any of the ponies or horses having mouthing problems. No one used flash straps or figure 8 nosebands to hold mouths shut.
I do wonder if the double jointed mouthpiece gives some horses too much to fiddle and play around with?
We had an ongoing problem with Jazzie when we bought her that went on for a few years and then on a whim put Flo's old thin loose ring snaffle on her and the all of the messing with the bit and trying to get her tongue over it went away


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks @evilamc- I will message you about the bit; BO suggested something similar yesterday too.

Has anyone in the US found a reputable bit rental place? Seems like the UK has "The Bit Bank" but a quick Google search didn't turn up many similar options here. Anyone use this place: https://marystack.com/marys-bit-rental-program/? 

My old barn had an overflowing bit sharing wall but the barn where I am now, people are a little more reserved as far as personal stuff so I don't have access to anything I don't buy and try.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

egrogan said:


> Thanks @evilamc- I will message you about the bit; BO suggested something similar yesterday too.
> 
> Has anyone in the US found a reputable bit rental place? Seems like the UK has "The Bit Bank" but a quick Google search didn't turn up many similar options here. Anyone use this place: https://marystack.com/marys-bit-rental-program/?
> 
> My old barn had an overflowing bit sharing wall but the barn where I am now, people are a little more reserved as far as personal stuff so I don't have access to anything I don't buy and try.


I think Myler has a bit rental program? I'd have to do some googling. I have like 4 I could probably send LOL! Well ones a curb so you probably arent interested in that. I have that mullen one, a loose ring snaffle, curb then 2 of the same mouth piece but one is D ring and 1 is french link of the mouth piece with the high port. I really like Mylers though, Jax loves the rollers on them, hes got a busy head (As I'm sure you've noticed from pics I post LOL!). They all feel very well made too.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

@jaydee, you ask a very good question, like you i was only used to single joint snaffles, or mullen mouth, I don't know if they all just worked well, or if we just accepted it. I remember one horse had a dropped noseband, everything else just had straight cavassons.

I thought Fergie would hate the jointed curb, but she went well in it, still wonder if a single joint snaffle would work with her.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Todays discussion bit...seen on a local sales page.....thoughts...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^By no means the worst bit I've seen, but I'd like to put that in the mouth of a few horse people... might teach them a bit of consideration...


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

To me that bit looks pretty harsh, but then again I have no experience with that type of bit.

For me, the most challenging things about bits is finding one that fit my pony’s mouth. I went searching all over for a 4” French Link and finally had success on horze.com when getting Jet’s first bit. I am wondering if searching for other 4” bits will still be a challenge. It seems that most bits come in 4.5” or higher. 4” seems rare for certain types of mouth pieces. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

evilamc said:


> My mare Ori is one of those! I bought her when she was 11, when I tried her out she was tossing her head a lot...I didn't like the bit they had her in but they also had NO idea when her teeth were last done! So I scheduled to have them floated ASAP when I got her home...Well vet found a wolf tooth on one side! He took it out and shes been much happier
> 
> @egrogan Myler actually makes a 3 barrel mullen mouth piece. So it can be more rigid and straight like a mullen or when at rest it kind of curves with the mouth. I have one and both horses do pretty well in it! I've recently switched Jax to a Myler that has a larger port though. Orianna still likes the mullen. I could probably let you try it out if interested, they're expensive to buy and she hate it! I try to get most of my Mylers used off a facebook group though.


Wolf teeth are not canines. Any sex of horse can have wolf tooth, and they are the ones noted for being a problem far as any bit interference. Even with geldings, I have never had canines interfere with any bit. Sometimes canines are shortened some, but they are not extracted routinely, as they are deeply rooted in the jaw bone
Wold teeth are sort of residual teeth, from the horse evolution, and really serve no purpose, and are usually very easy to extract, being shallow rooted

Yes, the idea that the thicker the mouth piece the milder, but that is only up to a certain point, and the mouth of a quarter horse for instance can't accommodate a bit thickness designed for a warmblood
I find it hard to visualize canines being a problem, far as a bit, unless that bit is hanging very low in the mouth of the horse

Canine teeth

Canine teeth in horses: all you need to know - Horse & Hound

Wolf teeth

Wolf Teeth in Horses - Article - Equine Veterinary and Dental Instruments, Grafton NSW


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Todays discussion bit...seen on a local sales page.....thoughts...
> 
> View attachment 950844


Doesn't that just look hideous? I think so.

However, I have ridden for a couple people who had horses go in them. With shorter shanks. Needing the money, though my eyes probably bugged out, I didn't say anything the first time I saw one and just prayed the horse was sensitive to seat and leg cues.

After riding a couple times for the first guy I asked what he liked about it and just who in the heck ever thought of using one.

He said that particular horse liked to mouth a bit and produced a lot of saliva. The horse didn't like a snaffle or solid mouthpiece and objected to bosals and hacks. He didn't know where they originated.

Long story made (a little) shorter: Someone, pondering the problem with him, offered "this thing hanging in his trailer." Put it on and the horse just stood there with a minimal amount of cud-chewing motion. 

He had me lay it over the back of my hand and play with the reins. It was surprisingly not uncomfortable even with some pressure. 

The gal who used it on one of hers that I rode simply told me, when asked why she went to it with her horse, "Because he likes it." I didn't see any sign of him not liking it, so I guess was right!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I found agood artcile, concerning bits, bit fit, evaluating each horse;s mouth,on The horsecom

What has to also be taken into account, and not just the bit and shape of an individual horse's mouth, but incorrect bridle adjustment. It is well worth the read and here is one key point:

'Goostree points out that many riders seek miracle cures in bits marketed to fix horses' behavioral problems. "And sometimes the bit does fix their problem," she says. "But often, riders just need to go back to some basic training."

Bit Fit

The Problem--Your horse's bit doesn't fit his mouth or jaw. The bit is either too wide or too narrow against the outer corners of the lips, or too fat or too thin inside the horse's mouth. A poorly fitted bit can cause a horse to loll his tongue, which in turn can obstruct airflow or inhibit swallowing during exercise. An ill-fitted bit can also rub and cause irritation to your horse's mouth corners, bars, or tongue.

Another bit fit problem is caused by an incorrectly adjusted bridle, which can pull a bit too tight in the mouth, causing pinching and tension, or drop the bit too low, where it can bump against the canine teeth or buds.


Bits: Pain in the Mouth | TheHorse.com


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The reason I do not like a true TT, is summed up in the following paragraph-it gives very little signal

'a curb or leverage bit should hang lower in the mouth, but without hitting any teeth.

Also with a leverage bit, make sure the curb strap is adjusted correctly. "People always want to set a curb strap by how many fingers you can put between it and the chin, and that really doesn't make any sense," Bennett says. "What you want to do is decide how much you want the bit to rotate and set the curb accordingly."

The more "signal" a leverage bit has, the more you have to pull the reins for it to engage. The more you tighten the curb strap, the more you take the signal out of the bit. Along the same lines, a bit with straight shanks will give very little signal and engages quickly. "Most training is based on pressure and release, so riding the horse with a swept shank, or the so-called grazing bit, will release more quickly and reward the horse for his response," says Bennett.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Wolf teeth are not canines. Any sex of horse can have wolf tooth, and they are the ones noted for being a problem far as any bit interference. Even with geldings, I have never had canines interfere with any bit. Sometimes canines are shortened some, but they are not extracted routinely, as they are deeply rooted in the jaw bone
> Wold teeth are sort of residual teeth, from the horse evolution, and really serve no purpose, and are usually very easy to extract, being shallow rooted
> 
> Yes, the idea that the thicker the mouth piece the milder, but that is only up to a certain point, and the mouth of a quarter horse for instance can't accommodate a bit thickness designed for a warmblood
> ...


Derp I'm dumb, for some reason I SWORE you guys said wolf teeth LOL! I guess others were just surprised she had the one still so my brain jumped to that. I'm running on little sleep lately, ignore me!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Todays discussion bit...seen on a local sales page.....thoughts...
> 
> View attachment 950844


I assume a barrel racing bit, as not legal elsewhere. If a horse likes it, the owner is happy, does not show western, then go for it

There is a good point though, in the article I posted-the less trained the horse and the less skilled the rider, the INCORRECT move is to go to a bit designed for a more advanced horse

A Spade bit is a very well crafted bit, that allows a great deal of finesse, used by a person that knows how to use it, and on a horse that has gone through the training program of a Spade bit bridle horse.

In the mouth of a less educated horse, esp combined with less educated hands, it can be very severe


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Phantomrose said:


> For me, the most challenging things about bits is finding one that fit my pony’s mouth. I went searching all over for a 4” French Link and finally had success on horze.com when getting Jet’s first bit. I am wondering if searching for other 4” bits will still be a challenge. It seems that most bits come in 4.5” or higher. 4” seems rare for certain types of mouth pieces.


And if you have a horse bigger than 5" in Western you struggle. Gibbs, although he was QH was very wide in the mouth needed 5.5 or 5.75"



boots said:


> Doesn't that just look hideous? I think so.
> 
> However, I have ridden for a couple people who had horses go in them. With shorter shanks. Needing the money, though my eyes probably bugged out, I didn't say anything the first time I saw one and just prayed the horse was sensitive to seat and leg cues.
> 
> ...


I think it is the combination of chain and gag that makes me go :shock:

I can understand how some horses might prefer something like a Waterford, or even the chain, in some ways in 'neutral' I would think it would be very comfortable.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I find it hard to visualize canines being a problem, far as a bit, unless that bit is hanging very low in the mouth of the horse.


It's rare, but the reason I mentioned it is that where I've seen it happen is on horses with very short mouth openings like @egrogan's horse. In the several cases I've seen, the horse was fussy about having any wrinkles in the lip, but that made the distance between the bit and the canines short enough that some mouthpieces can bang against them. 
When the horse moves the bit on his tongue in a mouthpiece that has a lot of play like this Waterford, I've heard the teeth getting hit on the short mouthed horse and seen the horse getting perturbed. When I looked in the mouth and pulled the bit down, I could see that it was touching the teeth. It can also happen in some other styles.









It's one of those things you may not think of unless you see it. I used to use Kimberwicke bits with the chain just hooked on but not clamped down, so it could be adjusted for other horses. I didn't even know about lip straps back then. That was all just fine for years until one horse was galloping, threw his head and one side of the chain came off. With each stride the chain was hitting him on the side of the face and in the eye, but thankfully I was able to get him stopped and he wasn't injured. Now I secure the chain.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Todays discussion bit...seen on a local sales page.....thoughts...
> 
> View attachment 950844


I agree with boots - it gives you that immediate almost _ewww_ reaction. It's when you start breaking the bit down though that your mind kinda slows or calms down lol.

Also agree with loosie. Not the best, but not the worst. 

I've heard the chain mouthpiece is pretty mild & gentle, due to it's ability to mold to their mouth. I'm not sure _how_ as it looks like it would pinch the heck out of their mouth. I can't speak from experience though as I've never had the desire to buy, much less, bring one home to try on my horse.

The amount of gag is decent, but honestly not a _lot_. It's hard to tell in the picture but I would say maybe 2 inches? The dutch/3 ring gags have much more range of motion/gag. Which I have used previously & didn't cringe over (they also didn't bother my mare).

I'd have to say the only thing that really turns me away from this bit is the shanks. If they were a little more balanced top to bottom or shorter I'd say it could honestly be a fairly mild, stronger bit. Similar to a Jr Cowhorse with more gag action. Although you could say it probably is about the same as a 3 ring gag on the bottom ring. Hm.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Todays discussion bit...seen on a local sales page.....thoughts...
> 
> View attachment 950844


 It looks horrible though likely not as harsh as some of the twisted bits
I would think these sort of bits are designed to deter a horse from making/seeking contact so they appear to be super light on the hands


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

A lot of western riders do not want the horse to 'seek contact'. They use seat and legs and hands are the LAST thing that comes into play.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> A lot of western riders do not want the horse to 'seek contact'. They use seat and legs and hands are the LAST thing that comes into play.


 And in that case a bit like that chain wouldn't essentially be harsh at all because its the pressure from the hands to the mouth that decide how much the actual bit impacts on the mouth.
When an 'english' horse seeks the contact it shouldn't be leaning on the bit or pulling against it though. If the horse has accepted the contact, is correctly responsive to pressure and works in a good self carriage it should feel very light on your hands. Its just hard to know how those rings would feel inside the mouth. If they're smooth and chunky then likely not that bad.
Unfortunately even with western riders the less experienced one's can hang on their reins and yank on them and too many riders believe themselves to be better than they actually are.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

gottatrot said:


> .
> 
> It's one of those things you may not think of unless you see it. I used to use Kimberwicke bits with the chain just hooked on but not clamped down, so it could be adjusted for other horses. I didn't even know about lip straps back then. That was all just fine for years until one horse was galloping, threw his head and one side of the chain came off. With each stride the chain was hitting him on the side of the face and in the eye, but thankfully I was able to get him stopped and he wasn't injured. Now I secure the chain.


Slightly off track from bits but bit related as this reminded me of a horrible freak accident I had when riding a pony I had that went very well in a low ported Kimberwick (not the slotted type) but disliked the feel of the curb chain and would shake his head in reaction too it so I used to ride without the curb chain but the hooks still on the bit. I was riding him and leading another pony off him one day and when they had to get close together to get through a narrow gap the hook somehow went right through the other pony's nostril and when it reared up to try to get away it ripped right through.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> And in that case a bit like that chain wouldn't essentially be harsh at all because its the pressure from the hands to the mouth that decide how much the actual bit impacts on the mouth.
> When an 'english' horse seeks the contact it shouldn't be leaning on the bit or pulling against it though. If the horse has accepted the contact, is correctly responsive to pressure and works in a good self carriage it should feel very light on your hands. Its just hard to know how those rings would feel inside the mouth. If they're smooth and chunky then likely not that bad.
> Unfortunately even with western riders the less experienced one's can hang on their reins and yank on them and too many riders believe themselves to be better than they actually are.


Yup, no argument from me there. Since I started out English, when I'm riding 2 handed, I demand the horse accept contact. A lot of Western trainers don't know how to get that done (think ropers). So now, when I have a young one, we start dressage and switch from english to western when I get on. Then we start working from snaffle to bosalito and 2 rein to low ported curb on up to a spade bit if the horse can go that far.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I haven't kept up with the "bit" thread in a while, but I'm almost halfway through a video over on YouTube by a young woman who strikes me as quite thoughtful. I offer it in the spirit of "general bit discussion".


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Chain bits, I've found horses either love them or hate them.
Mike Beers made the chain bit popular with the team ropers.
I too found the bit handy for horses who had learned to brace on the bit and run through it. It's harder for them to brace on it because there's so much movement in it.

Also, even broke horses who don't brace against the bridle and run through your hand can like the chain bit. It lays across the mouth, no pressure on the palette like a ported bit, if the horse prefers tongue pressure over palette.

My bay horses likes the chain bit I own.
The one Golden Horse pictured is a little more than I need but I don't think it's horrible or cruel.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think most western horses, in basic good training, that creates rail and pattern horses, understand contact.
I have taken numerous clinics with those whose disciplines revolve around western pl, eq , trail, western riding, and the common principle they all use, is, there are times you have to take hold of ahorse, and then continue to hold him, WHILE driving with legs, until that horse softens.
There certainly are people that ride with western saddles that jerk on a horse, but that doesn't mean it is accepted practice. 

There was a concept given to me, by an AQHA trainer, that I have taken to heart: You can hold a horse, for as much as it takes, while driving him up with legs, until he softens, BUT never jerk on a horse, or you will soon have a jerk for a horse'

Yes, in roping it gets, 'cowboy, as there is no time to set up the hrose for acorrect stop, and the horse is jerked to a stop, soon as that rope falls over that calf's neck That is also a reason ropers use tiedowns. If you were to suddenly just take the slack out of those reins, at a full gallop,with no tie down, the end result for the rider could be not good!
All the comment I will make on rodeo type riding.
I think the link I posted goes into Jaydee's comment very well, and if you read that Horsecom link, all that info is there.
The more 'advanced, or call it severe bit ( taking the idea hands on the reins are the same), belongs in the hands of a more advanced rider and educated hrose, for increased finesse,as that rider will have the hands and knowledge to use that bit as it is designed-increased communication and signal

Unfortunately, that is often not the case.Those bits are often used on hroses not soft, not educated,, and by a rider with harsh hands, for control

I already gave the analogy of an educated Spade bit horse and rider, compared to putting that Spade in the mouth of a green horse and in the hands of a rider that has no business riding with a Spade bit

We all here,I think, know the general principle that any bit can be harsh in the wrong hands, and that a very advanced bit can be very kind in educated hands

However, when one compares bits, one has to standardize one variable. Thus, if bits vary , by different ones being discussed, you have to make one factor that is a constant, in order to make any intelligent comparison possible.

That is how any product is evaluated. You have only one variable at a time
Thus, bits have to be rated, with the idea that the hands on the reins are the same, FOR THAT COMPARISON and rating.

You can then take each bit in turn, and compare how their action differs according to hands, adjustment, bridle fit

There is no argument on my part, that a Spade bit , for instance, is a great communication tool, on a horse that has gone through that training program, ridden by someone that understands the production of a bridle horse, while a snaffle, in the hands of a poor horseman, can be a torture


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think the idea , far as I have read, far as chain mouth pieces, is that there is nothing solid for the hrose to brace against


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## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

mmshiro said:


> I haven't kept up with the "bit" thread in a while, but I'm almost halfway through a video over on YouTube by a young woman who strikes me as quite thoughtful. I offer it in the spirit of "general bit discussion".
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdymVjMhTP8




I actually watched her video earlier today. I enjoy watching her videos, and what she has to say. I agree with her in that people should do their research, and not rely on studies that only have once source, and that sounds heavily biased. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a great article that explains how shank angle, length affect signal time, and how leverage is affected by the ratio of purchase to shank length

https://www.equisearch.com/HorseJournal/custom-bits-require-a-savvy-owner


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mmshiro said:


> I haven't kept up with the "bit" thread in a while, but I'm almost halfway through a video over on YouTube by a young woman who strikes me as quite thoughtful. I offer it in the spirit of "general bit discussion".
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdymVjMhTP8


Admittedly, just skimmed over the vid, but what I heard, based on my own learning/experience is spot on. Except possibly around the 9 min mark, when she goes on about hackamores. I did rewind to try to find if she was talking about a specific type, and I did hear her say something about curb chains, so I think she might be talking mechanical 'hackamores'. I agree with her on those being generally a bad choice. But if we're talking true hackamores, I think they CAN be harsh, but again, depends on type as to the points she made. Traditionally they are made with rawhide or otherwise hard & stiff. Also the knots on the side(forget what they're called) can be pretty harsh if big & depending where they sit. However, if it's a flat &/or soft noseband, without knots or such to work on so called 'pressure points', I don't see that as any more harsh than a halter - and less so than many rope halters.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I watched Mshiro's video - some interesting points but she isn't totally correct. If a horse pulls enough in a double jointed mouthpiece then it will have fold either side of the centre joint and though not as bad as a single jointed bit it can still have the nutcracker effect. The exceptions are the Myler bits because they have a different design - though not all horses like them because of that design
If you have a horse that regularly pulls or leans on your hands enough to make the bit fold then it shouldn't be in that bit.
If your hands are so heavy that you're causing the effect then the same applies (you used in the general sense)
She's also incorrect about the rubber bit versus the Happy Mouth plastic one. Its the rubber bits that can cause a dry mouth. The plastic bits don't do that


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Regarding signal time and curb bits...

Could a tom thumb bit with a straight shank and looser curb chain give the same signal time and release as a similar bit with swept back shanks and a normal fitting curb chain? Why or why not?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mkmurphy81 said:


> ...Could a tom thumb bit with a straight shank and looser curb chain give the same signal time and release as a similar bit with swept back shanks and a normal fitting curb chain? Why or why not?


How a curb bit affect "signal" is based on the combination of how the horse carries its head, the straightness of the shank, and the adjustment of the curb strap.

"Signal" is irrelevant if ridden with continual contact, because the signal phase comes before all the slack is out of the reins.

If a horse carries its head mostly vertical, then it NEEDS a straight shank so the ends of the shanks will fall under the mouthpiece. If the horse carries its head at 45 degrees, then a straight shank bit will rotate 45 degrees so the ends will be under the mouthpiece, thus removing the "signal".

This picture was taken shortly after I switch Mia to curb bits, and it taught me a lot. Click on it to enlarge if needed.








​ 
The wrinkle in the shank doesn't change its fundamental geometry. It is nearly straight. She carried her head at 45 degrees. I have ample slack in the reins, but the weight of the reins has rotated the shanks 45 degrees. Thus Mia had no signal with this bit, because it wasn't balanced right.

I switched her to a Billy Allen with shanks that bent 45 degrees. The ends then rested, by gravity, in the neutral position. So as I took the slack out of the reins, the shanks could freely rotate 45-60 degrees before applying pressure to her mouth, giving her time to obey without pressure.

If a horse carries its head more in the vertical, then a straight shank works fine. And in the picture of Mia...had it been a Tom Thumb with a looser curb strap, it would still give some signal. But it would be harder to adjust it and one probably couldn't get a full 45-60 degrees of signal.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue." 

- Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS 

http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> So as I took the slack out of the reins, the shanks could freely rotate 45-60 degrees before applying pressure.


I understand the principles of 'signal' re shanks, as you've explained, but I don't get how the above is supposed to work. I don't see how pressure/taking slack could possibly cause the bit to rotate but without any pressure?? Especially when headpiece is connected to a shank section above the mouth. I think perhaps its confusing light pressure with no pressure...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Nothing to add to the bit discussion so far as using one, but I thought I'd share these bits. A lot of the baroque ones are being made in Pakistan (or sold from that country). I think I ran across some made in Iran???? the other day (Surely my memory is wrong, but IDK now)

Here's a nice low port curb bit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HACKAMORE-BIT-HORSE-GOLDEN-SHANKS-CHAIN/322962776635?hash=item4b3214e23b:gpsAAOSwpoxZlZSs

And here's a really lovely English style hackamore:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/hackamore-bit-In-Black-brown-Leather-Golden-Shanks/322964894510?hash=item4b3235332e:g:XAsAAOSw-K9ZJYC4

I'd seriously considered the later when we thought we might have Trigger ready to ride with the Trail Riders in the Christmas parade. He's not ready and neither am I, so I've not committed to buying one yet.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

They are pretty, you can get my Dragon bit as a hack as well


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Golden Horse said:


> They are pretty, you can get my Dragon bit as a hack as well


I've seen the dragon shanked bits somewhere... and I've been combing through ebay to see if that's the place I stumbled over them. Apparently not. 15 pages in... and nada.

That just drives me nuts too.

But yeah. The dragon hack is an option. Definitely an option for Trigger.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I've seen the dragon shanked bits somewhere... and I've been combing through ebay to see if that's the place I stumbled over them. Apparently not. 15 pages in... and nada.
> 
> That just drives me nuts too.
> 
> But yeah. The dragon hack is an option. Definitely an option for Trigger.


There's a page on FB that has baroque,bling,and custom designed tack from bhe, they have lots of things.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I'll have to do that. I spend untold amounts of time chasing rabbits online when I'm 'researching' tack to buy and sell. The baroque stuff really caught my eye and I've ALWAYS loved the traditional Arabian tack, so yeah. Love it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> ...I don't see how pressure/taking slack could possibly cause the bit to rotate but without any pressure?? Especially when headpiece is connected to a shank section above the mouth. I think perhaps its confusing light pressure with no pressure...


Before the curb strap tightens, the shanks rotate freely. How freely? You can do it with a single tail hair, pulling while holding the hair between your thumb and index finger. The mouthpiece will rise in the mouth by maybe 1/2-3/4 inch, but that isn't any more than my horse will sometimes raise it himself. 

Now...is there NO pressure? Well, no additional pressure against the tongue and bars.

Once the curb strap tightens, the top end of the shank becomes the fulcrum of a Class 2 lever. Only then is leverage created. The easiest way to judge it is to stand next to the horse's head and fiddle with the shanks, and feel how lightly they move.

Now that our HF Barn Pictures are fixed, here is Mia with a curb. Notice the near side had rotated 45 degrees due to the rein sliding a little on her neck. But it hasn't even created a wrinkle in her lip.








​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, a Spade bit,sums up the rider;s responsibility, and I found the following article to have application for anyone riding a horse in an advanced bit;

he Horseman’s Responsibility

It is no surprise that in the age recently passed, when social trends seemed bent on dodging responsibility, that the spade bit and its use would fall from favor.

The use of the spade bit brings with it a measure of responsibility. Users must handle their mount in a manner that protects and preserves their horse’s mouth. Romal reins with accompanying rein chains for balance and presentation are needed. Horses should be managed in a way when bridled to prevent bumping the bit into objects or hanging a portion of the bit on a fence or similar snag. There are some tasks in a buckaroo’s work when the spade may not be the best choice. Teeth need to be maintained to allow horses to carry the spade with comfort.

All souls criticize that which they do not understand. These notes are not an effort to get everyone to jump on the spade bit band wagon. The spade bit is not for everyone or for every situation. The band wagon is not very big; but oh what beautiful music it plays.

Bon Voyage

The spade bit is not a piece of equipment, it is a philosophy. To use it and use it well an entire school of thought must be sought and explored. For thoseBit 9 100 interested in doing just that; welcome to the journey of a lifetime. A human life can barely encompass all there is to know about the mysteries of the discipline.

Yes, there are many who use the spade with little or no understanding or appreciation for it. But then, you can kill cockroaches with a violin – yet that is not how the violin might best serve us.

A truly great ride on a finished bridle horse is regarded as a precious gift from above; but the rider must be made as equally sensitive to the spade bit as the horse is for both things to work together. The numb or heavy handed have no business on a fine bridle horse and some would argue that they would have no business on any horse.

So while the leverage bit user only wants to get from point A to point B; to the spade bit horseman it’s all about the ride. It’s the difference between jumping into the pool and climbing to the highest cliff and executing the perfect swan dive. Both ways get you wet, it’s just about what you want to experience on the way.

To engage in a discipline that requires and promotes feeling and sensitivity is a noble thing. To feel deeply is to live fully; a goal we would all do well to achieve before the last song is sung.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Nothing to add to the bit discussion so far as using one, but I thought I'd share these bits. A lot of the baroque ones are being made in Pakistan (or sold from that country). I think I ran across some made in Iran???? the other day (Surely my memory is wrong, but IDK now)
> 
> Here's a nice low port curb bit:
> 
> ...


That bit might have a low port, but look at the shank and purchase ratio, and how those shanks hang. The shanks are also fixed. Not a mild curb by any means,esp for a horse that is not 'very broke'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This aluminium grazing bit, on the other hand, is a pretty mild curb. The shanks are loose, swept back, medium port

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Cheeks-Horse-Grazing-Sweet/dp/B002HKHKOU


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation bsms. I see what you mean now. I would say it is very dependent on the mouthpiece, and the actual design of the shanks too, as to whether there is any pressure before the curb engages. Also the top of the shank being attached to the headpiece like that, I can't see how there would not be *some* pressure even without the curb. Not that I have a problem with that concept either way, just from an academic point of view, I'm not sure I could agree there's NO pressure.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> If a horse carries its head mostly vertical, then it NEEDS a straight shank so the ends of the shanks will fall under the mouthpiece. If the horse carries its head at 45 degrees, then a straight shank bit will rotate 45 degrees so the ends will be under the mouthpiece, thus removing the "signal".


Excellent post. This is what I believe explains the real reason why Tom Thumb bits with a straight shank and broken mouthpiece are not tolerated by some horses. This has made many people say Tom Thumbs are bad bits. For many horses that carry their head at a 45 degree angle, the Tom Thumb provides no signal. When you combine that with leverage and a chain, many riders may think they are being light but every time they pull on the rein the horse is hit unexpectedly with the pressure. 

This never becomes a problem for horses that are mainly neck reined, or if the rider uses light pressure only occasionally. So those people can't figure out why others think Tom Thumb bits cause head tossing. I saw this illustrated by a friend, her mare always carried her head at 45 degrees and whenever my friend "hit" her mouth with the Tom Thumb (not harshly), the mare would toss her head. It would always come out of the blue for the horse and she would react. If the rider gives presignal in another way such as with the seat or legs, then the horse will also tend to not be annoyed by the TT.

A comment (not judgment) on Spade bits. I can never guarantee for myself that I won't come off a horse due to some unforseen circumstance. Because of that, I will not use a mouthpiece that can injure a horse severely if he runs and gets the reins caught, steps on them or etc. Sharp bits may be fine with the best riders' hands, but not against the weight of a horse in the case of an accident.

This might also be a slight judgment: how can this be seen as an appropriate use for a spade, when there is no draping rein and lightness?








According to Les Vogt:


> A spade bit is designed to work more on the interior of the horse’s mouth than on the corners or the curb strap. The spade itself works towards the palette. A trained spade bit horse will hold the bit so that the spoon cannot rotate towards his palette. He will give to the bit as you tighten the reins which creates a cushion.


This makes me skeptical. It's OK to use pressure because the horse will hold the bit so it doesn't hurt him?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> A comment (not judgment) on Spade bits. I can never guarantee for myself that I won't come off a horse due to some unforseen circumstance. Because of that, I will not use a mouthpiece that can injure a horse severely if he runs and gets the reins caught, steps on them or etc. Sharp bits may be fine with the best riders' hands, but not against the weight of a horse in the case of an accident.
> 
> This might also be a slight judgment: how can this be seen as an appropriate use for a spade, when there is no draping rein and lightness?
> 
> ...


A spade bite is not a sharp bit. It may have a high port and a roller, but a good one will never have sharp points or edges. A true bridle horse is taught to use seat & legs and very little hand, and if the rider comes off for any reason, they've been taught to stop and ground tie until the rider comes back. A bridle horse rider won't need the pressure, the movement of the hand in a 4 square inch area above & in front of the horn is all that's necessary.










This is an old Garcia bit.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, while I think that all bits can be discussed together I do think a Spade IS a whole 'nother discussion. There is so much ignorance out there when it comes to them...count me as one when I first met them, NOW I get it, and I can admire their beauty and craftsmanship, at the same time knowing for sure and certain I will never have the skill or the partnership with any horse to be able to ride with one, I do not have enough years left in the saddle to take that journey.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, while I think that all bits can be discussed together I do think a Spade IS a whole 'nother discussion. There is so much ignorance out there when it comes to them...count me as one when I first met them, NOW I get it, and I can admire their beauty and craftsmanship, at the same time knowing for sure and certain I will never have the skill or the partnership with any horse to be able to ride with one, I do not have enough years left in the saddle to take that journey.


There's no bigger pleasure than riding a super well trained bridle horse. When the horse is trained enough to be 'straight up in the bridle', it's the smoothest communication you'll ever have.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I picked up a true vintage Crockett Renalde spade bit at an estate auction last month. Also available, but was literally STOLEN before they could auction it, was an Al Tietjen spade bit. Both were/are silver mounted, etc.

I've had a lot of novice and medium skilled people look at the CR bit, and mouth off something silly like, I'm going to use that on SO AND SO, (in the I'm Gonna Show Him Who's Boss kinda way). Sigh.

No. No you are not. 

A spade bit like this requires a person who absolutely knows what they're doing, but also a HORSE that knows what they're doing with it in their mouth. And each of you need to know the other knows what they're doing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> A spade bit like this requires a person who absolutely knows what they're doing, but also a HORSE that knows what they're doing with it in their mouth. And each of you need to know the other knows what they're doing.


Exactly!

And the "I'll show him/her" types usually rue the day they start futzing with a spade in a horse's face.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And the "I'll show him/her" types usually rue the day they start futzing with a spade in a horse's face.


I can't even imagine.....maybe I don't want to imagine...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I picked up a true vintage Crockett Renalde spade bit at an estate auction last month. Also available, but was literally STOLEN before they could auction it, was an Al Tietjen spade bit. Both were/are silver mounted, etc.
> 
> I've had a lot of novice and medium skilled people look at the CR bit, and mouth off something silly like, I'm going to use that on SO AND SO, (in the I'm Gonna Show Him Who's Boss kinda way). Sigh.
> 
> ...


Exactly!
That is why it takes time to make a bridle horse.
According to Ed Corrnel, even when a horse was up in a spade, some of those old Vaqueros packed a snaffle tied on behind their saddle, in case they ran into a situation out on the range, working cows,where they had to take hold of the horse, more then a Spade was ever designed for


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And yes, trotting a true TT has very little signal, due to design. Straight up and down short fixed shanks .
However, the poor jointed mouth curb, for lack of any better term to define it, , either has all of those bits lumped as being TT or shanked snaffles
Thus, a jointed mouth curb, with loose swept back shanks has a great deal of signal, and is good for hroses that still need some individual signal from each rein,to make the cue clear at times

A curb with fixed shanks, thus even signal across it, requires a much more e'broke' horse
Longer shanks also create longer signal time, but do have more leverage, thus on a greener horse the increased signal from longer shanks is sacrificed for less leverage.
Sure, you can ride a well broke horse in almost anything, working of the indirect rein, but that still doe snot make the TT a great bit, as even with horses, or esp with horses that respond before bit engagement, feeling that uptake or signal, a bit that provides very little is not a good choice
That is why well broke horses working mainly off of the indirect loose rein, are ridden in a curb with longer shanks, with some sweep to them


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Before the curb strap tightens, the shanks rotate freely. How freely? You can do it with a single tail hair, pulling while holding the hair between your thumb and index finger. The mouthpiece will rise in the mouth by maybe 1/2-3/4 inch, but that isn't any more than my horse will sometimes raise it himself.
> 
> Now...is there NO pressure? Well, no additional pressure against the tongue and bars.
> 
> ...


Not a TT, I hope you realize, or perhaps it was just Trottin who thought all jointed mouth curbs are TT?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I can ride one of my broke horses in a true TT and never have head tossing-still does not make it a good bit
The faster a maneuver, the faster hands tend to be, which has to be worked at, obviously, but a bit with very little signal just compounds the problem


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Smilie said:


> ...However, the poor jointed mouth curb, for lack of any better term to define it, either has all of those bits lumped as being TT or shanked snaffles
> Thus, a jointed mouth curb, with loose swept back shanks has a great deal of signal, and is good for horses that still need some individual signal from each rein,to make the cue clear at times...


Exactly! That's why the JMC (because that poor bit really needs a nickname) is one of my favorite bits for kids. My horses aren't green, but my riders are, and sometimes they need to direct rein to communicate more clearly.

Also, my earlier question about a TT with a loose curb chain was purely for discussion. I don't like them, I don't own one, and I don't want one.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Smilie said:


> Exactly!
> That is why it takes time to make a bridle horse.
> According to Ed Corrnel, even when a horse was up in a spade, some of those old Vaqueros packed a snaffle tied on behind their saddle, in case they ran into a situation out on the range, working cows,where they had to take hold of the horse, more then a Spade was ever designed for


Right. And a lot of people think the spade bits are like this one are like putting Brembo brakes on a sports car... the bigger the brakes the better the control/stop.

Uh. Negative. That's not what these bits are made to do and all you're going to do if you don't know what you're doing is cause your horse to stand straight up in it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

"The wrinkle in the shank doesn't change its fundamental geometry. It is nearly straight. She carried her head at 45 degrees. I have ample slack in the reins, but the weight of the reins has rotated the shanks 45 degrees. Thus Mia had no signal with this bit, because it wasn't balanced right."

But what that "wrinkle" does is change the balance of the bit by putting weight behind the mouthpiece allowing the horse to carry it's nose out a bit more due to where "nuetral" is in the bit.

Ive taken some pictures of my bits. Bits with the same mouthpieces but different cheek styles to demonstrate how the cheek affects the balance of the bit.

If you look at bit #1 and #2, both have a san joaquin mouthpiece. I have balanced both on my fingers to demonstrate the neutral spot in the bit. 
#1 the Teitjen is laid back which would allow the horse if he seeked the neutral spot to pack his nose out in front of the vertical.

#2 The Garcia Las Cruces style is straight up and down, if a horse was to seek the neutral spot he would have to pack his head on the vertical to find the relief.

And this is because of how much cheek and weight in behind the mouthpiece.
If you were to draw an imaginary from the center of the bridle you can see how much more cheek is behind the mouthpiece on the Teitjen than there is on the Garcia Las Cruces.
Also note where the mouthpiece is in the cheek.
The Teitjen mouthpiece is place in the front of the cheek as the Garcia is hung in the middle of the cheek.


Same with bits #3 and #4. Half breed mouthpieces.
#3 Iveson Kissing Bird
#4 Anders Las Cruces
Draw the imaginary line again through both bits and see how much cheek is behind the mouthpieces in relation to how they balance naturally.

Then compare #2 and #4 Both Las Cruces style cheeks but in the Anders bit the half breed staple is laid back at a slight angle allowing a little more "nose room", if you want to call it that, than the Garcia mouthpiece.

So the "wrinkle" or "S" bend in that shank of is more than just keeping a horse from lipping the shanks, it changes the balance of the bit even if the the bridle ring and rein ring are on a straight line or close to it.

Hope that makes sense.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Excellent post. This is what I believe explains the real reason why Tom Thumb bits with a straight shank and broken mouthpiece are not tolerated by some horses. This has made many people say Tom Thumbs are bad bits. For many horses that carry their head at a 45 degree angle, the Tom Thumb provides no signal. When you combine that with leverage and a chain, many riders may think they are being light but every time they pull on the rein the horse is hit unexpectedly with the pressure.
> 
> This never becomes a problem for horses that are mainly neck reined, or if the rider uses light pressure only occasionally. So those people can't figure out why others think Tom Thumb bits cause head tossing. I saw this illustrated by a friend, her mare always carried her head at 45 degrees and whenever my friend "hit" her mouth with the Tom Thumb (not harshly), the mare would toss her head. It would always come out of the blue for the horse and she would react. If the rider gives presignal in another way such as with the seat or legs, then the horse will also tend to not be annoyed by the TT.
> 
> ...


I am going to address the spade bit.

Theres a couple different schools of thoughts on the use of the spade. The purist, traditional and more of the modern cow horse style.

The picture of Les Vogt shows the modern cow horse style and what has been discussed earlier is the purist/traditional.

You can bloody a horse's mouth with any bit. Ive seen a lot of damage done with a snaffle even though they are though of the kindest bit.
The spade though intimidating looking due to the height of the spoon really isn't. You can teach a horse to run through a spade as fast as any bit.
Look at how much surface area the spoon and braces cover, more than any bit made. That spreads pressure over a pretty big area. Picture below is my EL Gato with open roller braces and a roller on top of the spoon.

Where you can cause the most damage is if the curb isn't adjusted correctly causing excessive rotation of the bit.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> "The wrinkle in the shank doesn't change its fundamental geometry. It is nearly straight. She carried her head at 45 degrees. I have ample slack in the reins, but the weight of the reins has rotated the shanks 45 degrees. Thus Mia had no signal with this bit, because it wasn't balanced right."
> 
> But what that "wrinkle" does is change the balance of the bit by putting weight behind the mouthpiece allowing the horse to carry it's nose out a bit more due to where "nuetral" is in the bit.
> 
> ...



Your Teitjen is the exact same style as what was stolen at the auction I was at. Man it was a gorgeous bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I found a bit in the tack room with a "S" cheek to demonstrate what I was talking about in my other post.

You can see how the cheek weights the bit and allows it to lay. If the cheeks were straight it would allow the mouthpiece to lay back like it is in the photo.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Your Teitjen is the exact same style as what was stolen at the auction I was at. Man it was a gorgeous bit.


Most of his bits were stainless, like mine. He made very few inlaid silver ones. The stainless ones are worth about $400 depending on the style. The silver ones about $2500.

After Al died the Marsh Bros. Bought the molds and are still producing the stainless bits. I havent looked for quite some time but i think they are about $250-$325. 

Too bad people feel the need to steal! What a shame, especially if it was silver one.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Not a TT, I hope you realize, or perhaps it was just Trottin who thought all jointed mouth curbs are TT?


No, not a Tom Thumb. A Billy Allen, actually, so not a jointed mouthpiece, either. Nothing particularly wrong with a Tom Thumb, though - provided the bit is little used.








​
But, as an example of misconceptions, some say a sideways pull on a TT will cause the top to swivel into the horse's face. Doesn't happen that I can see:








​
Certainly not my "Go To" bit, but they aren't guilty of all the things people say. I think my favorite curb is the solid shank low port curb...very basic, but Bandit does well in it. My Tom Thumb is currently out in the garage, in the Sack of Discarded Bits. Wouldn't hesitate to ride a horse in one, but Billy Allens and my cheap solid shank give me better results. Need more time to decide if the Dr Cook's will replace them as my "Go To Bitless"....


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Most of his bits were stainless, like mine. He made very few inlaid silver ones. The stainless ones are worth about $400 depending on the style. The silver ones about $2500.
> 
> After Al died the Marsh Bros. Bought the molds and are still producing the stainless bits. I havent looked for quite some time but i think they are about $250-$325.
> 
> Too bad people feel the need to steal! What a shame, especially if it was silver one.


I think it was stainless. It was identical to yours. I was stunned that someone had the cajones to do that, but also, they literally stole from a widow. It was the estate auction of Jerry Painter, an old school champion roper in McAlester, Oklahoma.

The Crockett bit I brought home is stainless with silver mountings. Both were/are gorgeous.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS on the TT:


Certainly not my "Go To" bit, but they aren't guilty of all the things people say. I think my favorite curb is the solid shank low port curb...very basic, but Bandit does well in it. My Tom Thumb is currently out in the garage, in the Sack of Discarded Bits. Wouldn't hesitate to ride a horse in one, but Billy Allens and my cheap solid shank give me better results. Need more time to decide if the Dr Cook's will replace them as my "Go To Bitless"'

If you are referring to Rashids rant on the TT, where in fact, he is making a general rant against all jointed mouth curbs, with them being used on a green horse to start it, versus being used correctly AFTER the snaffle stage, then I agree none of those jointed mouth curbs, true TT or not, can have a confusing effect, not because of their design , not meant to be used on a green horse, where a non leverage bit is designed to be used.
Once ahorse understands how to give tot hat direct pressure, sure you can direct rein in many of these bits, esp those that are loose jawed

Rashid belongs to the mindset that a jointed mouth curb is is not a curb, but some sort of abomination, and that comes in part from the Vaquero tradition, where that bit was never used, but instead evolved when a well trained western horse did not necessarily go through that vaquero training, with the jointed mouth curb facilitating those programs in producing well broke horses also. He is thus looking at those jointed mouth curbs as being used like a true snaffle or bosal.

Can a broke horse be ridden in a TT. Sure. Would I chose to do so, NO. Not for the reasons Rashid gives,using that bit like it never was intended to be, but because it lacks signal time, and the best curbs on well broke horses have lots of signal time
I did use a Billy Allen curb in reining for a while. Not a bad bit, but also not my favorite.
I also had horses that referred to stay in a jointed mouth curb, versus one with a port. They rode okay in either, but rode a tad better in the jointed mouth.
Charlie likes a medium port bit with loose shanks and with that port being wide. 
She will ride though, really well in a bit with a correction type narrower port, at shows, being a tad lighter in it
Does not mean I don't go back to riding her in a snaffle, just riding out, or working on her flying changes.
Carmen likes the pictured bit, and I often will ride Charlie in it also.

Second picture shows Smilie with a bosal

Third picture shows my son riding his trail horse, after a long ride, into the river with halter

Broke is broke. On one mountain ride, my son rode his working cowhorse with a curb. When we stopped for lunch,, we took bridles off as usual, let horses graze for awhile an then tie them up.
He opted not to re bridle his horse, and rode him back with just the halter.
In the end, different bits are designed to give nuisances in communication, but the 'broke' is between the ears.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I've always wondered why spades have that bar connecting the rein ends if the shanks are solid? I understand the chains connecting the rein ends, to keep swivel shanks from moving too much, but if the shanks are solid what use is that bottom bar? Is it just for looks? To better balance the bit?

I have always admired and respected riders and horses who ride in spades - the sheer amount of training that goes into both of them is incredible! I would love to train a spade horse someday .... I have the light hands for it but I know there's so, so much more to it than that. I'd love to see the whole process from start to finish. 

-- Kai


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Smilie

I hope your son doesn't know you posted that photo of him in his tidy whities . . . or is he?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> @Smilie
> 
> I hope your son doesn't know you posted that photo of him in his tidy whities . . . or is he?


What can I say, it is a new generation! It is not like that river hole was secluded, being just before the camp ground!
Spur of the moment thing, and obviously no worries about who rode by.He is in his early forties, so not under mother;s influence!


Smilie and I are a bit more 'traditional', and since I don't swim, that is as deep as we go!
He did pack his swimming trunks this summer, when we camped together with him and his girl friend. They swam their horses after a day long ride, while hubby and I were content to sponge bath our horses on the river bank, then go back and relax with a drink!

And yes, he does have white under shorts on


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> I've always wondered why spades have that bar connecting the rein ends if the shanks are solid? I understand the chains connecting the rein ends, to keep swivel shanks from moving too much, but if the shanks are solid what use is that bottom bar? Is it just for looks? To better balance the bit?
> 
> I have always admired and respected riders and horses who ride in spades - the sheer amount of training that goes into both of them is incredible! I would love to train a spade horse someday .... I have the light hands for it but I know there's so, so much more to it than that. I'd love to see the whole process from start to finish.
> 
> -- Kai


Weight and if you're roping it helps keep your rope from getting hung in between the cheeks. Or get them hung on anything really, fence rail, limbs, etc.
Solid slobber bars are pretty but if a horse trips and he accidently steps on it, it can hurt a horses mouth and usually bends or breaks the bit.
The advantage of slobber chains is they will break before it wrecks much else and can easily be replaced.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> There's no bigger pleasure than riding a super well trained bridle horse. When the horse is trained enough to be 'straight up in the bridle', it's the smoothest communication you'll ever have.


I agree. You think it and the horse does it kind of communication.


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