# Potential breeders please read this first!!



## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

I know everyone who read this forum are horse lovers, i also know a lot of people dream of breeding their own horses. But jsut because you love them doesnt mean you should breed them! Lately i hav ebeen looking for a pony to buy to break in and turn into a child pony. This search has taken me to backyard breeders all over the country. Its also left me seriously upset! PLeas take the following into consideration before you breed!

1. Way to many start breeding horses as a fun backyard buisness with their non horsey spouse/partners- To many times this ends in divorce, i have seen so many cases this month of non horsey ex partener dumped with a whole bunch of semi wild stallions,mares, and all offspring! You will not make money breedina few cute ponies(not matter how many you breed) they are **** expensive creautres that are impossible to budget for. They cause stress, arguments, financial strain and are a lot more hardwork than you bargained for.

2. How much do you actually know- you may have owned horses a long time this dosnt always mean your good judges of horses. do you know good conformantion when you see it. What are cow hocks, swayed back, ewe necks, a horse that dishes or weaves? do you know these things? are they desirable?

3. is their actually a market for what you want to breed? usally if no one else is breeding them it because its not a good idea. If their is a market can you produce them to a marketable standard.?Just because coloured ponies sell for lots of money dosent mean your will, if their half wild, ugly, knock kneed and unbroken, or weaninlings.

4.do you have an idea of how gentics actually work? and what some crosses will produce. crossing a minature with a large pony wll not getr you a small pony- most of the time it will get u a large bodied horse, on tiny midget legs that will never stay sound. Blood over bone, is an old saying that is very true, do you know what it means? Some Cheap crazy OTTB crossed with a draft/qh/paint etc will not always result in great offspring. heavy mare over light stallion is a better way to go

5. temperamnt and movement is important- breeding highly strung choppy quick ponies are no good for anybody- they bounce kids out of the saddle and require experianced rider, which there arnt many of. 

6. do u know anything about training, or horse pyscology. becauif you breed them gurantee you will have to do some of the work- what happens if a foal dosnt want to be handled? can you deal with halter breaking. Waht about handling stallions? are you confident enough around dominant mare that you can work around them if somethign goes wrong?

7. can you handle loss? greif? drama? disaster? if a horse has birthing porblems can you cope until a vet gets there? can you be strong enough to be able to make decision to have an animal out to sleep if it is born with birth deformities, or dies in birth. One abandoned all her horse to starve because she was to distraught to look at them after a favorite mare died. as a breeder your playing god with these animal and will have to make hard descisions

8. do u know you breed standard? what should your horse lok like. If your breeding welsh ponies are you breeding show quality ones? fugly horse dont sell well- its the hard facts. Go get experiance with the breed, breeders and in the industry before you start!! it is essential

9. breedin horses is really realy realy expensive both money and timewise! People very rarely make money out of it.can you cope with expense?worming, farrier, vet, breeding, feed, remember 4 broodmares can mean 16 horses in 3 years- it can get out of control pretty quickly

10. Most very bad conditions in horses are inheritable=please dont continute to breed them not matter how good the horse is otherwise- bone disease-hernias, weak feet, these can all be inheraitbe and make a horses life misery! as is HYPP etc etc

please please think about this before you breed. I have seen far to many, ignorant people that have produced ugly,lame, deformed, or neglected,malnourished horses. These are sad creatures that will never be guranteed good lives. Therse is no shortage of horses in the world, just a shortage of good owners!!


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Where are you from?


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## 2manypets (Mar 28, 2011)

"Therse is no shortage of horses in the world, just a shortage of good owners!"

AMEN


​


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

2manypets said:


> "Therse is no shortage of horses in the world, just a shortage of good owners!"
> 
> AMEN


 
Thanks seen way to many horses recently that wouldnt suit anyone! same rules apply for dogs & cats to. I brought 2 ponys & got 2 free foals off 1 property and they were the only ones that had any potential for anything. another 10 that were there were going to meatworks if homes wernt found...i cant imagine them selling. the guy wasnt a bad guy bt ignorance, divorce, and bad quality animals in a recession wernt a good situation with a lot of half wild horses


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

So if the horse has a bad temperament but awesome conformation and movement (with potential for the foal to compete successfully to the higher levels given the match is correct), is it worth to breed it?


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for your post Wild Horses. I agree, this needs to be said. We don't often associate 'back yard breeders' with horses, but they do exist. One only needs to attend a non-specialty horse auction to see how true your words are. I went to an auction with friends about 3 months ago and at least 75% of the horses there were young, wild horses that had been bred out in an unmanaged pasture by a couple that thought it would be a good hobby to breed horses for some extra cash. Most of these animals ended up selling for less than $150 to the meat buyers. Some had potential, but many had some serious problems due to defect and malnutrition. Most people (including myself) don't have the knowledge and experience to distinguish between true potential and potential disaster. 

That said, I admire those who have the time, money, knowledge and commitment to rescue horses. Thank you! My hope is there will be far fewer horses in need of rescue.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> So if the horse has a bad temperament but awesome conformation and movement (with potential for the foal to compete successfully to the higher levels given the match is correct), is it worth to breed it?


 
i personally wouldnt! a bad tempered mare raises a bad tempered foal. hot headed, hard to train stallionsusally pass it on to. likewise i know stallion that every single one of their offspring turns out quiet and good tempered enuf for even the most novice rider. 

horses make it to the top level of every discipline with all kinds of confromation faults, but very few/none make it with a bad attitude.

yet this seems to be the solution for every owner with a nasty mare, breed it and get something better. nice idea, doesnt usally work, and agian their are so many horses without home already do you really need to breed more??


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

wild horses said:


> i personally wouldnt! a bad tempered mare raises a bad tempered foal. hot headed, hard to train stallionsusally pass it on to. likewise i know stallion that every single one of their offspring turns out quiet and good tempered enuf for even the most novice rider.
> 
> horses make it to the top level of every discipline with all kinds of confromation faults, but very few/none make it with a bad attitude.
> 
> yet this seems to be the solution for every owner with a nasty mare, breed it and get something better. nice idea, doesnt usally work, and agian their are so many horses without home already do you really need to breed more??


pretty much what I would say, thanks wild horses....


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Thank Goodness for me, I answered most of your questions with a 'yes', and have a good quality horse to breed from. I think everyone should answer yes to most, if not all of these questions before considering breeding. The only one I had trouble with was coping until the vet arrives, as depending on what went wrong, I possibly couldn't cope. If it was a matter of the foal not passing its first poop, or no afterbirth/placenta (whichever comes out after the foal is born), then I could cope. If the foal was the wrong way round, or something drastic, I would have a clue, but wouldn't know what to do step by step.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

MadamKing said:


> Thank Goodness for me, I answered most of your questions with a 'yes', and have a good quality horse to breed from. I think everyone should answer yes to most, if not all of these questions before considering breeding. The only one I had trouble with was coping until the vet arrives, as depending on what went wrong, I possibly couldn't cope. If it was a matter of the foal not passing its first poop, or no afterbirth/placenta (whichever comes out after the foal is born), then I could cope. If the foal was the wrong way round, or something drastic, I would have a clue, but wouldn't know what to do step by step.


good on you 

i think you dont need to know how to do each procedure, but you want to make sure your not going to break in to hysterical crying when things start heading downhill. If you can stay calm your halfway there!

lol i didnt know how to get a stuck foal out either until, i had to deliver a foal without a vet in the middle of the night. Was not fun or easy. but i got it done and now i know how  i think if you dont have this attittude maybe dont put yourself in a position where you have to deal with these kind of things


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes, and seeing as I have a mare who has had issues before, I have made sure I know my stuff, just in case. And I agree that you need to have the 'I Can Do It' attitude, because sometimes the vet isnt always available. My friend who breeds Australian Stock Horses had a maiden mare birth standing up and the foal dropped into a pile of mud and needed instant care. Just goes to show that you need to be prepared.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

wild horses said:


> i know everyone who read this forum are horse lovers, i also know a lot of people dream of breeding their own horses. But jsut because you love them doesnt mean you should breed them! Lately i hav ebeen looking for a pony to buy to break in and turn into a child pony. This search has taken me to backyard breeders all over the country. Its also left me seriously upset! Pleas take the following into consideration before you breed!
> 
> 1. Way to many start breeding horses as a fun backyard buisness with their non horsey spouse/partners- to many times this ends in divorce, i have seen so many cases this month of non horsey ex partener dumped with a whole bunch of semi wild stallions,mares, and all offspring! You will not make money breedina few cute ponies(not matter how many you breed) they are **** expensive creautres that are impossible to budget for. They cause stress, arguments, financial strain and are a lot more hardwork than you bargained for.
> 
> ...


amen!:d


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

The sad fact is though the more you tell them not to do it the more they want to do it.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

yep hopfully this get through to someone though! 

Jus wanted to add at the moment you can get unraced Thouroughbreds, for $150 at bloodstock sales, i have seen show quality arabs been given away thorugh divorce, mustangs, wild horses there are still hundreds that go to slaughter each year and their are tons of horses at animal shelters. All of these make fantastic horses and will cost you 1/10th the cost of breeding and raising your own....

also just cos you breed something doesnt mean you will have some kind of magical bond with it!

everyone please think about this first!


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

another thing standardbred/pacers do not cross well with anything! the offspring will never be worth more than meatwork value. So many people are ignorant and pick up ex harness racing mare and think they will be great to cross.. i see so many proud breeders of skinny, ugly, funky moving horses that nobody will buy


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## lalaleelu (Aug 30, 2009)

for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

wild horses said:


> another thing standardbred/pacers do not cross well with anything! the offspring will never be worth more than meatwork value. So many people are ignorant and pick up ex harness racing mare and think they will be great to cross.. i see so many proud breeders of skinny, ugly, funky moving horses that nobody will buy


I wholeheartedly disagree with this.


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## sssmith (Apr 11, 2010)

I hate the word meatwork. I do agree that we do not need alot of breeding going on.... way too many horses out there.... and if u have an itch to have a foal, do ur research on health issues and expenses for a pregnant horse and then a mama and a foal, and go buy a pregnant mare from the sale barn. Even though they aren't supposed to slaughter pregnant mares, they do it all the time.... very obviously pregnant mares. Makes me sick really. So instead of breeding your horse just for fun, go save 2 lives instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

lalaleelu said:


> for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


Well lalaleelu, I tend to think (know) you are very young and have not had many years in the horse industry. Unfortunately, there are millions across the world, who do NOT know that breeding can be expensive. For every responsible breeder, there are many thousands who breed irresponsibly.

So now you breed Arabian Tobianos eh? Lets see some of your horses. I remember it was only a little while back, that you asked what breed others here thought your pony might be. Also I remember you had a horse which had some major bucking issues. 

Since then you seem to have come a long way. So brag about your new herd and tell/show us what you have and have bred. 

Lizzie


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

lalaleelu said:


> for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


I just have to say wow that is a horrible post. I also think when the OP said an ugly horse they were talking about ones that have conformation faults. Most 'ugly' horses are that way because something is up with their conformation.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

lalaleelu said:


> for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


I have been breeding for a long time. What is being stated here has a lot of truth to it. I do not want an fugly horse any more then I want one that is a walking train wreck.

There are too many people breeding who should not be breeding. They breed for the wrong reasons. Wanting a cute baby is not a good enough reason. Wanting a part of your mare is not a good enough reason. As much as you love the horse you have now you will love the next one just as much. There needs to be more. By more I mean more then color or looks I want a horse who can perform and do exactly what it was bred to do. I want a horse who looks like its breeding.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

lalaleelu said:


> for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


There are several very experienced breeders on here. Most of us have been there, done that, and have many years of research, trial and error, successes, and failures behind us. That doesn't make us better than anyone else, but rather than being resentful of advice on a subject on which you obviously have limited knowledge, you should be thankful that experienced breeders are willing to share the expertise they have acquired over the years with you so you don't have to reinvent the wheel and make the same mistakes that we have made.

I don't mean to come off as preachy or rude - just stating my opinion. Advice is not only free...it actually pays dividends...


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

THANK GOODNESS this thread is here! I was starting to get a headache from some of the subject lines I was seeing in the Horse Breeding forum.

I'm so glad that there are at least a few horse people who have some brains in them.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

lalaleelu said:


> for goodness sake since when is it your place to advise everybody else on breeding, do you even breed you're own horses? I mean seriously, I doubt anyone on this forum doesnt know that breeding horses is expensive you dont have to tell people things they already know. And why does it matter if you breed an ugly horse? I personally would get a horse based on its temperament rather than its looks. Unless of course they are conformational issues not just being "UGLY". Nobody really cares what your opinion of a good horse to breed is, let people breed the horses they want to breed!And how dare you call any horse fugly! Horses are beautiful creatures no horse should be referred to as fugly. and about a foal not wanting to be handled, its not really up to the foal whether it wants to be handled or not! After a bit of work and it would be fine!I dont think you are experienced enough to understand ANYTHING about breeding horses, I however would know as I breed horses myself, arabian tobiano's.


i put this up here because unfortunatly i do know a lot about breeding, i know how hard it is. I know how hard it is to make sure anythign you breed ends up in good homes. 

i have seen so many horses recently that have so many conformation faults, are unhealthy, and are ugly. I chose for tempermant overlooks too. but the sad fact is that ugly horses do not sell as well, they usally wont end up with as good care because they go to for cheap. ugly looks do = confromation faults alot of the time leading to problems. like i said before there are so many good horses out there that you can already buy for cheap and gurantee you like them, without investing all that money in breeding and maybe not end up with you want. 

p.s i also have nothing against standardbred crosses but again very small market for them as the ones that pace dont make the best riding horses (they are harness horses after all), most do have really good temperments, but i have seen so many standardbred cross ponies, bred by backyard breeders, most were for sale for $100, $200 that dosnt make the breeder any money and the a lot of those horses end up in really unsuitable homes. Just a note i brought one pony for $250 dollars for that is a standard bred coss last week, because she was so sweet and moves nicely, where i picked her up from were 20 more just like her but uglier, or skinnier,or with other problems, in 3 months mine was the only one that sold, the guy was going through a divorce and the other were all going to dog food if not sold. That is the sad fact of irresponsible breeding! 

i definatly do know what im talking about, so think about your arabian tobianos? how many do you need? will hey end up like these horses i saw?


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Unfortunately a lot of people really need to read this. I rescued an 8 yr old stud not too long ago who had been initially bought as part of a backyard breeding program. These folks thought they were going to get rich breeding this unproven stud to half wide cheap mares(they were all registered though so that's one up on some people). When they realized there was no money in this they sold the mares they could but the ill mannered stud was left to rot in a stall for 4 years with no vet care, little food(he was super skinny) and no hoof trims. 

He was way too much horse for me but I got him gelded, got his hooves and teeth done, vaccines etc then gave him to someone who trains and can handle his issues. 

It irks me when people who know very little about the horse industry think breeding is some sort of get rich quick scheme. I know very little but I at least I am ignorant and thus don't breed. 

Maybe this thread will make some people think before they act. Thanks for posting it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*NHRA, you keep saying this so I need to respond*



> Wanting a part of your mare is not a good enough reason.


I just don't understand why it is you consider yourself the expert in what is a GOOD reason to breed a horse. And to say as much as I love my horse, I'll love my next one just as much. That's words right out of a 'breeding as business' mouth. 
I have had 3 rescued dogs so far, and when I lose one, and get over grieving, I rescue another one. And yes, I love them all but never the same. I don't intend on having 'another horse' to love because some of us DON'T see them as a business and my greatest worry is my mare will outlive me. Because I also rescued her but got a great, sound, do anything type of horse that may live forever. I was very lucky. Do I want a piece of her in my life? You betcha. And I intend to breed her later because I've already one foal from birth years ago. I'm not sure I qualify as a 'backyard' breeder because I am going to look very carefully at the stallions I am interested in, and I'm not trying to make money. As far as 'just because you bred it, doesn't mean you'll have a special bond' well DUH. You have to build a bond with living creatures, they don't have a clue who bred them. I've done it before with foals just by sitting in a pasture until their curiosity was killing them, and they had to come and check me out. Have you ever just SAT with any animal, thankful to be graced with their presence? 
The economy downturn hit people hard. A lot of registered, non-fugly horses were abandoned or turned loose too you know. 
I guess I'm just trying to say I'll do with my animals, healthy and well cared for, as I please.


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I just don't understand why it is you consider yourself the expert in what is a GOOD reason to breed a horse. And to say as much as I love my horse, I'll love my next one just as much. That's words right out of a 'breeding as business' mouth.
> I have had 3 rescued dogs so far, and when I lose one, and get over grieving, I rescue another one. And yes, I love them all but never the same. I don't intend on having 'another horse' to love because some of us DON'T see them as a business and my greatest worry is my mare will outlive me. Because I also rescued her but got a great, sound, do anything type of horse that may live forever. I was very lucky. Do I want a piece of her in my life? You betcha. And I intend to breed her later because I've already one foal from birth years ago. I'm not sure I qualify as a 'backyard' breeder because I am going to look very carefully at the stallions I am interested in, and I'm not trying to make money. As far as 'just because you bred it, doesn't mean you'll have a special bond' well DUH. You have to build a bond with living creatures, they don't have a clue who bred them. I've done it before with foals just by sitting in a pasture until their curiosity was killing them, and they had to come and check me out. Have you ever just SAT with any animal, thankful to be graced with their presence?
> The economy downturn hit people hard. A lot of registered, non-fugly horses were abandoned or turned loose too you know.
> I guess I'm just trying to say I'll do with my animals, healthy and well cared for, as I please.


While you're doing as you please, there are many horses out there being starved and neglected and getting auctioned off to meat buyers because no one would buy them, being too busy breeding more horses into the world because they just wanted a piece of their beloved horse to treasure forever. By bringing yet another unnecessary horse into the world, that's one more perfectly good horse who will end up as a steak instead of being bought by a loving owner for a forever home.

Do horses everywhere a favor and buy an already existing horse. Please!


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

OK, someone please tell me what a 'necessary' horse is, since you and NH seem to know. I'm not going into the 'breeding' business, I'm breeding my mare if possible in the next few years. I own 1 horse. I own 1 dog. I don't see how I am irresponsible in my opinion in any way. I missed it when the BLM had their auction at our fairgrounds last year and they aren't coming again this year. If they do in the next few years, I'll buy a foal there to raise if I can find one that has good conformation, I don't care about colors. If not I'll breed my mare.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I just don't understand why it is you consider yourself the expert in what is a GOOD reason to breed a horse. *Doing it a long time and I have done a lot of research at to what is out there what they cost related to what it cost to breed and what different types of horses produce. * And to say as much as I love my horse, I'll love my next one just as much. That's words right out of a 'breeding as business' mouth. *I love all my horses. Each and every one of them. So much that I have a 31yo broodmare who has been living out her retirement here. She has earned it and she is getting it. I have been doing this long enough and bred enough horses over the years to know that regardless of how much you love your horse their get/produce are their own horse. If you try and compare them you are only in for disappointment. *
> I have had 3 rescued dogs so far, and when I lose one, and get over grieving, I rescue another one. And yes, I love them all but never the same. *Yet you do not want to breed them? Correct? Why? B/C you can get anouther rescue dog that you will love just as much. Having one of their offspring you still will not feel the same about that dog as you did the parent. You will love them but in a bit of a different way for different reasons.*
> 
> 
> ...


Yes you can do with your animals the what ever you want. They are yours and the great thing about this country is that you can do as you wish in many things and ways.

Problem is that what you breed will cost you more then buying one already on the ground. By adding one more horse who offers nothing more then any other horse out there is not helping anything.

If I could find a foal that is equal to the ones I breed for the same price it cost me to breed I would not breed. Things is I can not. If this is something you can HONESTLY say then great breed. However this is not what most people can say.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Not sure anyone has said that any horse is necessary. What I know I am saying is that it is not necessary to breed a mare just b/c she is a mare and has the parts to be bred or that it is necessary to breed your mare b/c you love her and want one just like her. Chances are you will not get it. Especially with a grade horse. You just do not know if that mare is a representative of her breeding or a fluke.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I just don't understand why it is you consider yourself the expert in what is a GOOD reason to breed a horse. And to say as much as I love my horse, I'll love my next one just as much. That's words right out of a 'breeding as business' mouth.
> I have had 3 rescued dogs so far, and when I lose one, and get over grieving, I rescue another one. And yes, I love them all but never the same. I don't intend on having 'another horse' to love because some of us DON'T see them as a business and my greatest worry is my mare will outlive me. *Because I also rescued her *but got a great, sound, do anything type of horse that may live forever. I was very lucky. Do I want a piece of her in my life? You betcha. And I intend to breed her later because I've already one foal from birth years ago. I'm not sure I qualify as a 'backyard' breeder because I am going to look very carefully at the stallions I am interested in, and I'm not trying to make money. As far as 'just because you bred it, doesn't mean you'll have a special bond' well DUH. You have to build a bond with living creatures, they don't have a clue who bred them. I've done it before with foals just by sitting in a pasture until their curiosity was killing them, and they had to come and check me out. Have you ever just SAT with any animal, thankful to be graced with their presence?
> The economy downturn hit people hard. A lot of registered, non-fugly horses were abandoned or turned loose too you know.
> I guess I'm just trying to say I'll do with my animals, healthy and well cared for, as I please.


You are breeding your rescued mare? Sorry, that is NOT smart and it is unethical. Do you breed your rescued dogs too? Sorry breeding an animal from a rescue, with an unknown pedigree, and unknown health background, is wrong and irresponsible. Do you know what she can pass onto her foal? She may be sound and an all around great horse, but without knowing HER background and just breeding her because you want another like her is NOT a good reason to breed a horse, a dog, cat, whatever. If you want another horse like her, go back to the rescue you got her from and find another good horse. No horse is the same.

You do know that the people who bred your rescue dogs were thinking the EXACT same thing as you are thinking when they had your dog's parents? They wanted a dog just like the one they had and decided to breed. Sorry that is not a good reason to breed. Just because you love your horse and want one just like her is NOT a reason to breed. Its unethical and irresponsible. Especially and rescue horse.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Yes you can do with your animals the what ever you want. They are yours and the great thing about this country is that you can do as you wish in many things and ways.
> 
> Problem is that what you breed will cost you more then buying one already on the ground. By adding one more horse who offers nothing more then any other horse out there is not helping anything.
> 
> If I could find a foal that is equal to the ones I breed for the same price it cost me to breed I would not breed. Things is I can not. If this is something you can HONESTLY say then great breed. However this is not what most people can say.


I agree 100% with what you said in her post and this. I will never breed a horse with an unknown past. Thank you for being responsible and researching and doing what you can be a responsible breeder. I wish more people would be like that.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Its unethical and irresponsible. Especially and rescue horse*

To add to my unethical and irresponsible behavior, I've always been sorry I got the dog I currently have spayed. I got her sight unseen and trained her to be a service dog for me, and she has the perfect temperament for the job, plus being part Blue Tic and part Retriever she's a great hunting dog, only unfortunately I don't hunt. However the last time I went fishing she went leaping into the other side of the lake and tried to retrieve me a live duck.....I didn't want one just like her, I don't know where you people get that idea about breeding anything. I wish I'd taken my chances on getting one 1/2 half as good as what she does though. I don't want an identical horse to my mare, I said I want a 'piece' of her. 
Don't start calling me unethical when my mare is 10 years old, and is sound, healthy, an easy keeper AND of course gets her shots every year so is seen by a vet every year. Fortunately she's been so healthy that's the only time she's seen one. 
You call me unethical? Irresponsible? I think you better look to the purebred breeders for that. Actually NRHA and I have been following a thread together on AQHA halter bred horses. To carry it on to dogs, find me an Irish setter that still knows how to bite it's own fleas, and I'll show you a backyard breeder. 
There are new breeds introduced over time to keep ALL the breeds infused with life. Always Behind mention 1/2 Arabs, and Appendix QH. And since my mare is an unregistered Morab, I first intend to have the vet do a blood test on genetics, I've been told it's a fairly easy thing to do to track down her parents if either were ever registered. If not, I'm planing on breeding to a registered Arab anyway. Anything else You want to assume about me?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Not going to get into the breeding hysterics, but I did want to point out that Appendix QHs and Half Arabians have been around a _very_ long time. They're hardly 'new breeds'. 

Any horse with a registered, DNA-typed Arabian parent can be registered as Half Arabian. That's not something new, and it's certainly not to 'bring fresh blood' into the Arabian breed. They'll_ never_ be registerable as purebreds. Even with 16/17ths breeding, they're still registered as _Half _Arabians, and any get they produce will be registerable only as Half Arabians.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*NHRA This brought tears to my eyes*



> Not sure why you think you are the only one who thinks about this type of thing. It is called being responsible. One of my best friends asked if she could put me in her will to care for her horse is something happen to her and her husband. Thinking sure I love the mare and would have no problem taking her on, plus she is in her mid to late 20's so there is no way that mare will out live my friend anyway. Guess what? My friend was killed in a car accident 2 years ago


Maybe we should quit assuming things about each other. I sincerely apologize. Cheryl


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

So Speed Racer, what is wrong with that? You act like grade or registered 1/2 Arabs are some kind of dirty word. I wasn't talking about infusing Arabs with new blood, but the other breeds they cross with, LOL. 
It amazes me that it seems like there's a kind of grapevine on here that brings people to thread in which they weren't interested before OP start having a friendly difference of opinion. I could actually name 4-5 right off hand. And speed Racer, what kind of horses do you breed anyway?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> T...And since my mare is an unregistered Morab, I first intend to have the vet do a blood test on genetics, I've been told it's a fairly easy thing to do to track down her parents if either were ever registered. If not, I'm planing on breeding to a registered Arab anyway. Anything else You want to assume about me?


On this...

You will not be able to just randomly test to find her parents. You can only test against what you think are the horse's parents. There is no horse DNA database to test against. So there is no way to find her sire/dam without knowing who exactly you want to test against.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> You act like grade or registered 1/2 Arabs are some kind of dirty word.


Nope, you're deliberately reading something into my post that was never intended. I have no problem whatsoever with grade horses, and I've met some fine Half Arabians in my time that I wouldn't have minded owning. 

Just stating that Half Arabians aren't a new breed, nor are Appendix QHs. They've both been around a lot longer than either of us.

I've had purebred Arabians for the last 3 decades, and know a quite a bit more than you about the registration process and how adamant the Arabian registries are about keeping the breed_ pure_. That's the point I was trying to make, not that grade or cross horses are somehow inferior.

I don't breed. Although I'm a horse _owner_, I have no delusions of grandeur about producing the next Huckleberry Bey or Khemosabi. Breeding correctly, with an eye to marketability and usefulness of the animals in question, takes years of experience and skill. I only have years of experience in owning, not breeding.

Anybody can put a stallion to a mare, but that doesn't make the resulting foal some miracle of wonderfulness. It's merely a horse whose breeding wasn't thought through completely, especially when the lineage of either parent is questionable.

I personally don't care whether or not you breed your mare. I have geldings. I'm a consumer, not a breeder.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*NDAppy, sorry I was misinformed*

That's the great thing about this forum, I never come here that I don't learn something. Someone told me she could be tested for Arab/Morgan types, you know how far DNA testing has come, testing recessive genes combined, etc. I just assumed it was true. I guess the way humans can be tested for certain things. I was going to ask my vet about it. I'm glad you saved me the embarrassment. Thanks, Cheryl


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> To add to my unethical and irresponsible behavior, *I've always been sorry I got the dog I currently have spayed*. I got her sight unseen and trained her to be a service dog for me, and she has the perfect temperament for the job, plus being part Blue Tic and part Retriever she's a great hunting dog, only unfortunately I don't hunt. However the last time I went fishing she went leaping into the other side of the lake and tried to retrieve me a live duck.....I didn't want one just like her, I don't know where you people get that idea about breeding anything. I wish I'd taken my chances on getting one 1/2 half as good as what she does though. I don't want an identical horse to my mare, I said I want a 'piece' of her.
> Don't start calling me unethical when my mare is 10 years old, and is sound, healthy, an easy keeper AND of course gets her shots every year so is seen by a vet every year. Fortunately she's been so healthy that's the only time she's seen one.
> You call me unethical? Irresponsible? I think you better look to the purebred breeders for that. Actually NRHA and I have been following a thread together on AQHA halter bred horses. To carry it on to dogs, find me an Irish setter that still knows how to bite it's own fleas, and I'll show you a backyard breeder.
> There are new breeds introduced over time to keep ALL the breeds infused with life. Always Behind mention 1/2 Arabs, and Appendix QH. And since my mare is an unregistered Morab, I first intend to have the vet do a blood test on genetics, I've been told it's a fairly easy thing to do to track down her parents if either were ever registered. If not, I'm planing on breeding to a registered Arab anyway. Anything else You want to assume about me?


Just because you want a "piece of her" is still NOT a reason to breed her.

So what if she gets her shots and is healthy?Many people on this board have horses who are healthy and have their shots, but they don't breed. She could be a carrier of something and you may not even know because you won't health test. What makes her breeding material? What does she have to contribute to the gene pool? Besides just wanting a "piece of her" why does she have to be bred?

If you researched like good breeders do, you will find wonderful, ethical, responsible, Irish Setter breeders. Why are you sorry about your dog? Because she is spayed and you can't make puppies? Sorry, I see no use in breeding mutts(Yes, I call them mutts, I am not using it as a degrading term.)Unless its for a darn good reason, and so far with all the mixed breed dog breeding craze going on, I see no reason to breed mutts. In horses, they have a darn good reason to create Anglo Arabs, and other crossbreeds, for health, temperament, working ability etc. I also don't think non-registered horses should be bred. I also think its very wrong to breed a rescue horse.

I still do not see anything responsible or right about why you want to breed your mare, That is one of the reasons BYBs breed their horse for their own selfish reasons.You are only breeding to satisfy yourself. You are breeding an unregistered, untested, rescue horse who you have no idea what her background is like. That is irresponsible breeding. Breeding should be left to those who are responsible, health test their animals, have a good reason why to breed(and that does NOT include "because I want a piece of her"), aren't in it for the money, are educated on the horses they breed and breeding in general.

Breed responsibly or don't breed at all!


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

If the horse world were different nowadays and there weren't far more unwanted horses in the world than we knew what to do with, I would say, fine. If you're only breeding one foal and you plan on keeping it forever and loving it no matter what, that's great. I wish you the best.

But unfortunately the horse world is in a bit of a crisis. Now is not the time be breeding more horses just like the ones that are already out there, begging for good homes.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

LOL, Wild Jessie, I'm trying to have a good natured discussion with people who have been there, done that and have the T to prove it. I'm sorry, could you list your the attributes of responsible breeders again, because I want to see which one I didn't qualify for. 


> She could be a carrier of something and you may not even know because you won't health test.


Exactly where did I say I wouldn't test my mare's health? And you can call either of my girls mutts, I don't care, but give me a link to a sane Irish setter, bred by responsible breeders. If the dog is sane, it won't have a coat brushing the floor, etc. Perhaps you might look in Ireland at what an Irish setter is SUPPOSED to look like and what their purpose is.
And would you mind as you keep accusing me of atrocity after atrocity tell me what exactly do you know about breeding anything  So far my biggest atrocities seem to be I spayed my rescue dog, and I rescued a mare. What are your qualifications on anything if you wouldn't mind sharing?


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Bagof4grapes, that's all I want to do*

I don't know how it became a blow-up of forum issue. I want to raise another foal in my lifetime, I'd like it to be my mare's, and I really don't have a need to research what's selling since I'm not going to sell. If that's selfish, so be it. I have one rescue, why doesn't everyone who is currently all over me go rescue just ONE horse, and make a difference?


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> LOL, Wild Jessie, I'm trying to have a good natured discussion with people who have been there, done that and have the T to prove it. I'm sorry, could you list your the attributes of responsible breeders again, because I want to see which one I didn't qualify for.
> 
> Exactly where did I say I wouldn't test my mare's health? And you can call either of my girls mutts, I don't care, but give me a link to a sane Irish setter, bred by responsible breeders. If the dog is sane, it won't have a coat brushing the floor, etc. Perhaps you might look in Ireland at what an Irish setter is SUPPOSED to look like and what their purpose is.
> And would you mind as you keep accusing me of atrocity after atrocity tell me what exactly do you know about breeding anything  So far my biggest atrocities seem to be I spayed my rescue dog, and I rescued a mare. What are your qualifications on anything if you wouldn't mind sharing?


No one said you were doing anything wrong by spaying a dog or rescuing a mare. We're saying that BREEDING a rescued mare is wrong. I don't know how this became a discussion about Irish Setters. We're trying to tell you that you have no good reason to breed your horse. In fact, if anything, it's a BAD idea.

You don't need to know my qualifications because I don't plan on breeding anything any time soon, if ever. It's unnecessary in a world where there are far too many horses already existing who are in desperate need of a good home.


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I don't know how it became a blow-up of forum issue. I want to raise another foal in my lifetime, I'd like it to be my mare's, and I really don't have a need to research what's selling since I'm not going to sell. If that's selfish, so be it. I have one rescue, why doesn't everyone who is currently all over me go rescue just ONE horse, and make a difference?


Because I can't afford it right now. Trust me, otherwise I would. But obviously you can afford to rescue a horse several times over if you're going to be breeding. Why don't YOU go rescue a few horses? THAT's what we're trying to get at and you seem to keep skirting the issue.

In fact, you don't even need to rescue a horse. Just buying one from a seller would be far better than bringing yet another horse into the world. Don't let your pride get the better of you. We're arguing this not to "prove" we're right or whatever. We're arguing for the horses. Don't help make their situation worse for your own selfish reasons.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Oh Good Grief, now I have to go*

and check you and wild jessie's profile, not that it necessarily will be true, because I AGREED with you Bag and I ASKED Wild's qualifications. So I have to guess you're the same person, sigh. 
Have you two ever heard of TGIF? Where you chill, catch up on your posts you may have not yet responded to, check out new threads? 
Thankfully I don't have to worry about my sanity since it's already gone.


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> and check you and wild jessie's profile, not that it necessarily will be true, because I AGREED with you Bag and I ASKED Wild's qualifications. So I have to guess you're the same person, sigh.
> Have you two ever heard of TGIF? Where you chill, catch up on your posts you may have not yet responded to, check out new threads?
> Thankfully I don't have to worry about my sanity since it's already gone.


What? You didn't agree with me. I'm still trying to convince you to that breeding your unpapered rescue mare is a really bad idea.

And wait, are you suggesting that I have two accounts on this forum? Sorry, but Wild and I are two different people. There really ARE multiple people thinking that your mare really shouldn't be bred.

And I'm not sure what you mean about TGIF. A good debate IS how I relax at the end of the week.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

> If you're only breeding one foal and you plan on keeping it forever and loving it no matter what, that's great. I wish you the best.


OK, what part of this did I misunderstand? Oh and I love good debates, just as long as everyone knows the rules, LOL. EVERYONE has a right to an opinion. And if you and wild are different people then why did you think I asked YOU for your qualifications? Because that was in a message to wild. I think it's kinda of cool if you are the same person, LOL, wild can be the really 'in your face' one and you can be the voice of reason. What would be REALLY cool would be if you didn't even know you were the same person. Sorry I was a School Psych. before i was disabled, and i keep hoping for a great psychological mystery to come my way  So I say......LET THE GOOD DEBATE CONTINUE, LOL


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> And if you and wild are different people then why did you think I asked YOU for your qualifications?


Because this isn't a private chat with Wild and I thought you were asking everyone who was opposing your breeding for their qualifications. Maybe it was just my bad for not reading that part more carefully.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

It has nothing to do with your 'bad' or private chats, or silly things like that. I direct my comments back, in as organized way as I can, by putting in the title who I'm addressing the comments to. Only way I can keep who I'm talking to straight. Old folk are like that 


> If you're only breeding one foal and you plan on keeping it forever and loving it no matter what, that's great. I wish you the best.


Didn't you say this? Didn't I title a message to you saying that's what I was going to do, if I EVER do it, which I have explained several times is in the several years future. And this is an opinion based outlet based on horses. You can't REALLY oppose anything I say, as long as it's not rude etc., or say I'm going to do, LOL. I can tell you that I intend to go and eat my mare tonight so I can keep a piece of her, and what is your recourse? EWWWW, grossed myself out, gotta get away from watching those brit. mysteries, LOL


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> It has nothing to do with your 'bad' or private chats, or silly things like that. I direct my comments back, in as organized way as I can, by putting in the title who I'm addressing the comments to. Only way I can keep who I'm talking to straight. Old folk are like that
> 
> Didn't you say this? Didn't I title a message to you saying that's what I was going to do, if I EVER do it, which I have explained several times is in the several years future. And this is an opinion based outlet based on horses. You can't REALLY oppose anything I say, as long as it's not rude etc., or say I'm going to do, LOL. I can tell you that I intend to go and eat my mare tonight so I can keep a piece of her, and what is your recourse? EWWWW, grossed myself out, gotta get away from watching those brit. mysteries, LOL


I did say that but you seemed to have missed the rest of my post. Read it again:

"If the horse world were different nowadays and there weren't far more unwanted horses in the world than we knew what to do with, I would say, fine. If you're only breeding one foal and you plan on keeping it forever and loving it no matter what, that's great. I wish you the best.

But unfortunately the horse world is in a bit of a crisis. Now is not the time be breeding more horses just like the ones that are already out there, begging for good homes."

Basically, IF things were different, I would say it's okay to breed just one foal that you plan on keeping forever, IF you do your research, have a good mare, and find a good stallion, and have the proper finances and resources for it. But only under those conditions.

However, the biggest of those conditions is not anywhere close to being met. The quality of life of horses everywhere is in *shambles* and the last thing these horses need is yet another horse to be brought into this world and win the good home that one of them could have had.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

OK, bagof4grapes, let me REPEAT. I'm looking a few years into the future and if you happen to know what the horse situation will be then, please let me know. And you can't AFFORD a rescue horse, yet you think I can afford dozens? ROFL, if that were only true. Did you miss the part where I said I was on disability? I do without eating out, expensive clothes, even going to the MOVIES because I decided that Sienna was more important to me than other things people take for granted. DON'T you dare doubt my commitment and do without just ONE thing for a year and you'll be able to rescue a horse. Yeah, like that's going to happen with any of you 'talk-gooders' as opposed to DO-GOODERS who may be extremist but walk the walk when they talk the talk. The reason, grapes, I'm looking into the future is because it will take me that long to save up for everything that must be done to ensure a healthy foal. You say you can't afford to rescue a horse? Of course not, because you can express your heartfelt disapproval here without giving up a single thing, like I have.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm going to agree with the others that are telling you not to breed your mare. 

What has she done to deserve to pass on her genes other than being your horse?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If somebody has a nice, sane, sound mare and wants a foal from her, can afford to raise it, train it, and care for it for life, who can complain? If she breeds to an arab, then she will have a registered half arab. Maybe she will prefer to breed to a quarter horse or a thoroughbred. It's all good. 

Being a rescue does not mean that a horse is no good. Lots of rescues are good, sound, registered horses that fell into the hands of idiots. 

I have raised several foals (mostly because my neighbor's stallion is such a good jumper). They all have a forever home. They are well fed and happy. 

The thing with raising foals is to be sure that there is a plan for their life. Few breeders that I know make all that much money at it. It costs me a fortune. I am glad that the stallion next door moved away. (His foals did make excellent jumpers though.... )


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

OMG yall seriously arent adding anything productive to this thread yall sound like the teacher from Charlie Brown agree to disagree. If a person is going to breed their horse a horse forum with unknown people isnt going to sway them not to...infact may push them to do it out of spite.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I think about breeding my Bourbon to A Shiner Named Sioux, then I stop and think **** be 3 years before I can sit my butt on its back by then I'll be 40 (yikes) because she's just 2 now wont breed till shes finished training will I still be physically able to ride then (arthritis) because I know I dont bounce well now imagine I'd be dead weight at that age. Then it his me as I look at Carol Roses for sale page and say to myself **** what I want is already on the ground I can buy now train and ride in a year instead of 4.


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## bagof4grapes (Jul 31, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> OK, bagof4grapes, let me REPEAT. I'm looking a few years into the future and if you happen to know what the horse situation will be then, please let me know. And you can't AFFORD a rescue horse, yet you think I can afford dozens? ROFL, if that were only true. Did you miss the part where I said I was on disability? I do without eating out, expensive clothes, even going to the MOVIES because I decided that Sienna was more important to me than other things people take for granted. DON'T you dare doubt my commitment and do without just ONE thing for a year and you'll be able to rescue a horse. Yeah, like that's going to happen with any of you 'talk-gooders' as opposed to DO-GOODERS who may be extremist but walk the walk when they talk the talk. The reason, grapes, I'm looking into the future is because it will take me that long to save up for everything that must be done to ensure a healthy foal. You say you can't afford to rescue a horse? Of course not, because you can express your heartfelt disapproval here without giving up a single thing, like I have.


.....

Wait, WHY do you have ANY horses if you're living off of disability? That's not the kind of living situation that a horse owner should be in, let alone someone who's considering BREEDING a horse! Just BARELY being able to afford the upkeep of one horse if you give up a few minor luxuries is NOT something to brag about. Sure, I could afford another horse if I scrimped and saved and gave up a few things and lived with no financial elbow room whatsoever, too. But I won't do that to myself or to my horses. After paying my bills and board each month I have enough money left over to put into savings in case of an emergency or unexpected expense, which a horse owner (or any animal owner for that matter) should be prepared for!

I don't just rescue horses willy-nilly if I can scrape the money together. THAT is severely irresponsible. Being rescued by someone who can barely feed themselves isn't much of an improvement for the horse. I make darn sure that I am financially flexible so that I can pay for any need or comfort that my horse could possibly require and I don't buy more horses than I can handle. That's only BEGGING for disaster, especially for the horses.

You don't need to be super rich to own horses, but you do at least need to be able to have a solid savings and plenty of elbow room for the just-in-cases, which, with horses, WILL happen.

I'm leaving this conversation before I do something I regret, as I can see I'm getting nowhere with you. Arguing over _this_ particular topic is just going to make me angry and begin ranting about how stupid people are. Good grief!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I know someone on disability who has a horse makes me shake my head if your physically unable to work how the heck can you care for a horse that is all out hard physical labor..... imo its fraudulent use of my tax dollars.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I know someone on disability who has a horse makes me shake my head if your physically unable to work how the heck can you care for a horse that is all out hard physical labor..... imo its fraudulent use of my tax dollars.


That's a good point. How can you ride a horse but not sit at a desk? Not directed at anyone in particular, just musing. I suppose with boarding you can avoid mucking stalls etc but there's still lifting a saddle and the actual riding...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> LOL, Wild Jessie, I'm trying to have a good natured discussion with people who have been there, done that and have the T to prove it. I'm sorry, could you list your the attributes of responsible breeders again, because I want to see which one I didn't qualify for.
> 
> Exactly where did I say I wouldn't test my mare's health? And you can call either of my girls mutts, I don't care, but give me a link to a sane Irish setter, bred by responsible breeders. If the dog is sane, it won't have a coat brushing the floor, etc. Perhaps you might look in Ireland at what an Irish setter is SUPPOSED to look like and what their purpose is.
> And would you mind as you keep accusing me of atrocity after atrocity tell me what exactly do you know about breeding anything  So far my biggest atrocities seem to be I spayed my rescue dog, and I rescued a mare. What are your qualifications on anything if you wouldn't mind sharing?


Excuse me?Just because I haven't bred an animal(I don't plan too.) doesn't mean I don't have experience in anything.You say to quit making assumptions, quit making assumptions about me. I volunteer at 2 animal shelters, and have to work with the dogs and cats who are the products of bad breeding. No they are not horses, but I have talked to people who are in the dog breeding world, and the horse breeding world. What qualificaations? I am agreeing with others who are saying that you are wrong to breed your mare, who is a rescue. I have read and research. I didn't know I had to have a qualification such as a degree to post in an OPEN FORUM.

YOU ARE BREEDING A RESCUED MARE! Who breeds an animal they rescued? The attributss for responsible breeders, since you failed to read them are: Those who health test, which you failed to mention, you mentioned that she is healthy and gets her shots, thats not health testing. Those who have a goal in breeding, which yours is just to have a "piece of your" horse for when she is gone. Who prove their horses are breeding material such as titling and working or showing their horses in something, another thing that you failed to mention.

I don't have to give you a link, as they are not my breed of choice. But if you know what to look for in a responsible breeder you can find one. Find a breed club, talk to other Irish Setter owners. Not that hard if you are really set on looking for one.

Breeding anything? You keep stating you want to breed your RESCUED MARE, because you want "a piece of her", your own selfish reasons. Did you not read your own posts? I didn't say that was wrong to spay your dog, thats a good thing. You are the one who said "I've always been sorry I got the dog I currently have spayed." Your words. I read that as if you were sad that you got your dog spayed. And no I also NEVER said anything was wrong with rescuing a mare, or any horse. YOU are the one who said you rescued your mare and want to breed her and people are saying that is not good and you are getting mad.

I really think you just trying to start stuff.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I don't know how it became a blow-up of forum issue. I want to raise another foal in my lifetime, I'd like it to be my mare's, and I really don't have a need to research what's selling since I'm not going to sell. If that's selfish, so be it. I have one rescue, why doesn't everyone who is currently all over me go rescue just ONE horse, and make a difference?


I would, but I can't afford to and I don't have the room. I plan on getting my first horse from a rescue and plan on volunteering at a horse rescue. You want to breed a horse that you rescued. Breeding a rescue horse is not right.

You need to research about breeding, not just selling.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

bagof4grapes said:


> No one said you were doing anything wrong by spaying a dog or rescuing a mare. We're saying that BREEDING a rescued mare is wrong. I don't know how this became a discussion about Irish Setters. We're trying to tell you that you have no good reason to breed your horse. In fact, if anything, it's a BAD idea.
> 
> You don't need to know my qualifications because I don't plan on breeding anything any time soon, if ever. It's unnecessary in a world where there are far too many horses already existing who are in desperate need of a good home.


This is exactly what I was saying! I agree 100%.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

Post was a little extra.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Hey guys, wow did this thread get heated or what!! please try and keep it PC as i would like alot more to read it and think before they breed.

I have a rescue dog, i love her dearly. although i would love a puppy from her i wont breed, because i know there will be another dog at the shelter to love and cherish when shes gone. remember with puppies you dont just get 1. If you keep the one you love, will you find homes for all the others, they might not be as special to someone else.

I have rescued and rehabilitated so many horses i have lost count. Thouroughbreds, mustangs, mongrel ponies the list goes on.I love doing this. i get immense pleasure out of seeing otherwise futureless horses go on to have succesful competition careers, kids mounts, pleasure horses and treasured family members. But it makes me so sad to see the all the ones that dont end up with someone like me, and end up as pet food. 

Since this thread started, i did end up buying four ponies, (i was only looking for one). I dont think anyone starts breeding with cruel intentions.. But i would describe all four of these ponies as rescue cases. Skinny, unknown breeding, and pretty much wild. Every place i got them from there was plenty more like them. The breeders had given up due to divorve, financial strife, pysically couldnt deal with it, or realised they didnt actually have the knowledge to deal with these horses past the cute foal stage. This is the reality!

for those of you who scream at those of us who mention the financial side of horses. please come to the real world. Horses cost a lot and they are also part of an industry. Sad but true. You can not be a responisble breeder/owner if you do not take the finances into account. Yes horses are my proffesion, but its because i really do love them and care about them, im also very realistic about how much they cost because of this. im not a cold hearted person who treats them as a buisness item, this is why it upsets me to see so much ignorance causing so much suffering for our much loved equine freinds.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I don't know how it became a blow-up of forum issue. I want to raise another foal in my lifetime, I'd like it to be my mare's, and I really don't have a need to research what's selling since I'm not going to sell. If that's selfish, so be it. I have one rescue, why doesn't everyone who is currently all over me go rescue just ONE horse, and make a difference?


 If you want to breed your mare, than by all means do so. It's your dime, if you plan on keeping it than it isnt part of the problem of unwanted horses. Your vet can tell you the most prominate genetic problems that both breeds arabs & morgans have and test for those to set your mind at ease about scids, lavendar foal syndrome and such. Evaluate your mares confirmation and the studs to make sure that you dont enhance any of eithers confirmation faults. People have alot of strong opinions when they are spending other peoples money. GOOD LUCK on what ever decision you chose.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Dresden said:


> That's a good point. How can you ride a horse but not sit at a desk? Not directed at anyone in particular, just musing. I suppose with boarding you can avoid mucking stalls etc but there's still lifting a saddle and the actual riding...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This woman is at a self care boarding place so she's cleaning a stall loading/unloading bales of hay rides all the time she has a very athletic morgan mare has a multitude of animals all on disability.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I know someone on disability who has a horse makes me shake my head if your physically unable to work how the heck can you care for a horse that is all out hard physical labor..... imo its fraudulent use of my tax dollars.


True. Since we talk about ethics here I find it _*HIGHLY unethical*_ to spend other people tax money on own hobbies, much less on _*breeding *_the horse and spending them on 2 horses (mare and foal). Especially when there are so many people in need in this economy.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Morab could have a mental disability and not a physical one, y'all. Doesn't mean I think she should be breeding a rescue on other people's tax money, but she could be legitimately disabled even if it's not a physical issue.

I am a little taken aback that she's already living hand to mouth, yet thinks it's okay to bring another living being into the world. That's really poor planning, and sounds to me that it's an emotional and not logical reasoning.

I don't adopt rescues for the simple reason that I'd rather _know_ my animals' pedigree, background, and possible genetic problems. That doesn't mean I don't donate or volunteer time where it's needed, but Morab seems to be operating under the impression that she's somehow _better_ than those of us who don't feel a need to brag about our accomplishments to all and sundry.

Taking on previously rescued animals when you're on disability is only opening them up to having to be rescued again if you get too far in the hole. Breeding one on top of that is the height of irresponsibility.

Nothing she's crowing about having to 'sacrifice' is anything different than what the rest of us on a budget are also doing. I don't eat out, I go to the local beauty college to have my hair cut, I color my own hair, I buy all my outerwear at Goodwill, and shop for bargains wherever I can. That's so I can continue to give my animals what they need. They didn't get a choice on where they live or who owns them, so it's _my_ responsibility to make sure they're well cared for. That's not being a martyr, it's just keeping the animals' welfare first and foremost.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Morab could have a mental disability and not a physical one, y'all. Doesn't mean I think she should be breeding a rescue on other people's tax money, but she could be legitimately disabled even if it's not a physical issue.
> 
> I am a little taken aback that she's already living hand to mouth, yet thinks it's okay to bring another living being into the world. That's really poor planning, and sounds to me that it's an emotional and not logical reasoning.
> 
> ...


Difference is those on a budget made the money they spend they arent using MY tax dollars...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Most people on disability should not have horses. They should not have any pets if they cannot afford them. I think, however, that people are people are judging without knowing the facts. I work full time and have no problem taking care of my seven horses. (Work does make it so that I don't get to ride as much as I like.) I have disability insurance that will pay me if I am unable to keep my current job due to disability. If I lost a hand or foot, or maybe my mind, I could not do the job I have. I would still have plenty of money to live on and keep my horses if I were forced to draw disability. So if I were on disabilty, my horses would be well provided for. If I could not throw around a sack of feed, my husband would do it for me. If he died or were also disabled, my grown kids would help. Thankfully, this is not nor is it likely to be an issue. I have thought about it and made arrangements so that my horses will always be cared for. I think we should all plan for our horses in the future so that they will be in good shape if we are sick or even dead. My disabilty insurance as well as my life insurance is private pay. The little bit that social security would contribute is negligable. I do pay my hard earned money into social security as well but I do not expect to get it back. 

If this person is living off of other people or not able to take care of their animals, then it is a no brainer that they should not be breeding. I am saying that I don't know this person's situation.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes Perlino, but don't the people on disability have just as much right as the rest of us to spend their money how they see fit? That's a slippery slope I'm not willing to go down, because now we're talking about policing others for doing something of which we don't _approve_, regardless of the legality of it.

Disability is not the same as welfare. Yes, there are those who abuse both systems, but there are also others who are legitimately in need. I _understand_ your outrage, I truly do, but I can't honestly say I want to deny someone who really needs it.

Plus, I'd rather not get into a political discussion, as those always get ugly no matter what the topic.

Do I think someone living hand to mouth needs horses? No, I do not, and I _certainly_ don't think they should be breeding anything, but I'm not aware of any restrictions placed on disability monies and how they're spent.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If this person were living totally off of US social security disability, they would not be paying board for a horse. There is just not enough money. I guess an exception would be if they slept in the stall with the horse. I know people who are on social security disability and they get between $600 and $1200 dollars a month. They are not getting rich.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Difference is those on a budget made the money they spend they arent using MY tax dollars...



She is not using YOUR tax $$ either. She is using HERS. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different types of disabilities and many different types of pay outs for it. There is disability insurance you get from your employer from insurance you purchase then there is SDI and SSI. The last two YOU pay into like you do your social security. All but SSI the person has paid into all their working life. Just like people who retire and get social security. Should they give up their horses too? After all they are living off tax payers money.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Speed racer, there aren't any restrictions and shouldn't be. I honestly didn't consider mental disabilities but in that case having a horse may actually help said disability...

Also to say someone on disability can NOT be paying board is incorrect. If one lives hand to mouth and has a cheap apartment or a paid off house, they could scrape by and pay board. 

There are just too many shades of gray in this discussion, too many "if's" and its way off topic now 

What about unemployment? Should people have to give up their horses when they get laid off and are searching for another job? Not to challenge anyones opinion. I'm just interested in this subject as I had never considered it before...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dresden, very good point; many people with mental illnesses or disabilities are helped by having an animal or two in their lives. 

I don't think any of us have the right to tell another person how they should spend their own money, be it from an earned wage or a disability pension.

I do think that people need to realize when they're getting in over their heads, though. If I were suddenly out of a job, I'd sell or give away the two riding horses and euth the old, crippled pasture pet. At that point, it's more necessary for me to keep body and soul together than have expensive luxury items draining what little money I do have.

I love my animals and it would hurt me tremendously to have to divest myself of them, but I'd rather they go to homes who could afford them, than try to keep them and all of us end up destitute.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Her money isn't money she has earned she does board this mare she's getting a check from the government every month she had 1 job for 6 mths to a year well over 10 yrs ago no way in heck she paid into it and is living off of that to my knowledge its welfare money so that makes it my tax dollars
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You sound as if you know Morab personally, Perlino. Otherwise, I'm not sure how you would be aware of her circumstances. Regardless, if the government is giving her a_ disability_ check, it most certainly is not the same thing as welfare.

Since I don't know Morab from Adam's house cat, I can't tar and feather her based on another internet stranger's pronouncements.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Unemployment would be something you paid into because you had to be employed to get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

No not her person I know lives in Mich.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

To clarify, Perlino knows a different woman personally whom she is referring to. Morabs statement was just the catalyst for the discussion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks I thought I said I knew of someone else who did it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Just b/c that one person did it that way dose not mean everyone who is disable has done it that way. 

I know with my health problems if it was not for my horses I would be in real trouble. It is the one thing that gets me up and out most days.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I am not claiming all do it no not at all I respect you a lot and would never think of you in any other way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> No not her person I know lives in Mich.


Then how is it germane to_ this_ particular conversation? 

If you know someone personally who is doing something illegal, then report her to the proper authorities. Disability, insurance, and welfare fraud aren't taken lightly.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

**** are you the forum police get off my back everyone here posts on things they wish that is horse related so who are you to tell me what I can and can't post on and since it isn't off topic its a valid post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

Wow did you folks have fun trashing me while I was asleep. I'd like to thank nrha and speed for trying to defend me whether they agree with a dream I have of doing someday. Let's see I've been called lazy, a tax defrauder, disability and welfare scum who seem to think they = the same thing, not that people on welfare that need it are scum in my opinion. Oh, and martyr. And a few I lost count of. 
I can't leave that many people in suspense that are so interested in my personal life. 
I am on SSDI, yes, that I paid into while I was working, my last job having been a School Psychologist that I had to go to grad school 3 years to get certified for. After several years in that field my panic attacks and depression became so severe I couldn't work. I have both a genetic and upbringing that predisposed me for that. Talk about your bad, thoughtless breeding, eh? 
If any of you knew how hard it is to face people day after day that think just like most of you after having once being a respected professional, well you just once again proved we've made no gains in the understanding of Mental health or it's issues. As for my 'selfish' behavior, I have a dr. who has written me letters to help me get transportation to see my horse, housing with my service dog, etc. My rescue is both physically and mentally in my best interest, or so think the professionals in that field. And my rescue dog, that I trained as a service dog, goes everywhere with me. Everywhere being the barn, PT on my shoulder, and MH across the street. She rides to the drs. with me on the medicaid bus, and literally has to drag me out of the house sometimes. Do I feel sorry for myself? Not usually and especially since the economic downturn, living cheap comes easy to me after this last very long years of being mostly housebound. But reading these posts made after I went to bed last night, one after the other I'm afraid actually has me in tears. I just stating that so you know even thieving, tax cheating, selfish martyrs get down in the dumps sometimes. I'm afraid i'm going to have to unsubscribe from this, it has just been way not fun. So you are all going to have to talk about me without me I'm afraid.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok that has been beat to death so lets get back on topic.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

What was the topic?


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

Celeste said:


> What was the topic?


"Potential breeders please read this first!!"


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Ok, to get back on track, the original post was a statement that breeding a few backyard horses was not likely to be a profitable venture. 

I agree with that. 

That is the reason that I bought my last horse rather than breed my mare to get a baby. The stud fee for the stallion I was looking at was so high that it did not make sense to breed.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

Celeste said:


> Ok, to get back on track, the original post was a statement that breeding a few backyard horses was not likely to be a profitable venture.
> 
> I agree with that.
> 
> That is the reason that I bought my last horse rather than breed my mare to get a baby. The stud fee for the stallion I was looking at was so high that it did not make sense to breed.


How high can stud fees go?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

WildJessie said:


> How high can stud fees go?



Depending on the discipline quite high. The TB race industry has some really high stud fees like over a $100K.

Average reiner is between $3500-$25K. Cutters are up there with reiners some even higher.

WP and Halter tend to be more around the $1K price range. 

So it really can vary.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The Arabians I looked at ranged from $1200 - $2500. Some are a lot higher.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

I have a question. If someone desperately wanted to raise a foal( I am not that person, I have no interest) in the horse industry are foals ever pre-purchased, like before birth or before weaning? 

I know some dog breeders will sell the pups before weaning and some even encourage new owners to come interact with them before they are ready to go home. Is that unusual in the horse industry?

I'm just curious as to what options there might be for people who want to raise a foal (for whatever reason) that wouldn't include actually breeding their mare?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I know of an arab breeder who has foals sold before conception lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have sold foals before the mare was ever bred. I have also sold Embryos. This way you can foal the mare out and raise the foal from day one yet have an out standing foal.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Disability is not the same as welfare. Yes, there are those who abuse both systems, but there are also others who are legitimately in need.


That's very true too. 

morab, I want to apologize for my words. I was referring to the people on welfare, not disability (got messed up in my head). As I know too many on welfare badly abusing the privilege. And yes, I do think that disability is something one can deserve, like retirement (although I'm sure there are those out there abusing the system as well). 

With that being said, I'm out of this discussion back on topic.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> **** are you the forum police get off my back everyone here posts on things they wish that is horse related so who are you to tell me what I can and can't post on and since it isn't off topic its a valid post.


How is it a valid post when it doesn't pertain to _anything_ concerning this thread? Your tangent about people 'stealing' your tax money has nothing whatsoever to do with disability payments and what people may or may not do _with their_ _own funds_. Either learn to communicate properly, or get used to people not understanding why or from where your rant is coming. :?

I've stated previously and more than once, I _personally_ don't care if anyone wants to breed their mare. I may think it's a bad idea, but that doesn't give me the right to castigate them or cast aspersions on their character, or second guess their financial stability.

As far as selling foals in utero, it's not that uncommon. During the Arabian heydey, it wasn't unusual for in utero foals to be sold for big bucks based on nothing but their hoped for future potential and their parentage. 

I remember the Arabian craze and subsequent fallout when the bubble burst. My heart horse was a $10,000 foal that I got for $3,500 as a 4 y/o, because the market was crashing down around the ears of all the breeders who thought they were going to make big bucks.

The idea as I see it, is in order to be sucessful someone needs to breed for what people are going to want in the long run, not what the public perceives as the horse du jour.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> .
> 
> I remember the Arabian craze and subsequent fallout when the bubble burst. My heart horse was a $10,000 foal that I got for $3,500 as a 4 y/o, because the market was crashing down around the ears of all the breeders who thought they were going to make big bucks.
> 
> The idea as I see it, is in order to be sucessful someone needs to breed for what people are going to want in the long run, not what the public perceives as the horse du jour.


yep similar situation im trying to point out- ignorant people think they are on to the next big thing, breed squillions of horses that they think are in fashion. just for example palimino ponies, they pay no attention to, conformation, training, worming,vaccination. Then realise that actaully the 50 or so ponies they bred have no market value. Financial stress occurs and usally you end up with all the ponies runing feral in someones back paddock, or more responsible people will just give them away to homes. its very rarely good for the horses. What i have seen is ponies advertised for $2-5000 realisically sell for $2-500


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Depending on the discipline quite high. The TB race industry has some really high stud fees like over a $100K.
> 
> Average reiner is between $3500-$25K. Cutters are up there with reiners some even higher.
> 
> ...


Oh wow. I sure hope that stallions i worth every penny!


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

Back yard breeding is each their own choice regardless if other people agree or diagree.

The owner has to suffer the loss if it doesn't turn out the way they think it will.

Here is advice for all you guys.
Remember you can buy good conformation horses.
You can breed good conformation horses but its still no guarantee the foal will have good conformation.

I have seen the nicest and best looking horses bred only to have a
dud foal and the owners upset and they still had to pay the expensive stud fees.

So everyone has their own decision to make.

Good Luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> How is it a valid post when it doesn't pertain to _anything_ concerning this thread? Your tangent about people 'stealing' your tax money has nothing whatsoever to do with disability payments and what people may or may not do _with their_ _own funds_. Either learn to communicate properly, or get used to people not understanding why or from where your rant is coming. :?
> 
> I've stated previously and more than once, I _personally_ don't care if anyone wants to breed their mare. I may think it's a bad idea, but that doesn't give me the right to castigate them or cast aspersions on their character, or second guess their financial stability.
> 
> ...


We were discussing the financial liability of breeding and clearly some one on government aid welfare clearly doesnt have the financial means to be able to take care of the mare and foal thats how it pertains the arabian thing was me replying to someone who asked a question on whats the earliest we had seen foals sold at and I answered that question now please continue with your bashing of me some where else this topic was laid to rest.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

How early a foal is sold has nothing to do with financial means or anything more then the quality of the mare most of the time.

Both foals out of my one mare the oldest is now 2 where sold about 6-7 years ago. So they it is never about anything but the quality of the mare and some times the stallion as to how early a foal is sold.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> How early a foal is sold has nothing to do with financial means or anything more then the quality of the mare most of the time.
> 
> Both foals out of my one mare the oldest is now 2 where sold about 6-7 years ago. So they it is never about anything but the quality of the mare and some times the stallion as to how early a foal is sold.


If this was to me I was answering a two part question.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

wild horses said:


> yep similar situation im trying to point out- ignorant people think they are on to the next big thing, breed squillions of horses that they think are in fashion. just for example palimino ponies, they pay no attention to, conformation, training, worming,vaccination.


Interesting enough the owner of the place my paint came from (I'd call typical BYB) tried to combine the confo with color and (to the point) with disposition (no attention to hoof care, health care, proper nutrition, etc.). I remember talking to him about it and yes, he confirmed he looks for combining both. And I have to say he had some of the most nice looking paints I've ever seen (even though I'm not a fan of the paint pattern and they were not well cared). So definitely some of those breeders put _*some *_thinking in it. With that being said having 80+ horses on property (some of those went on meat truck after the owner died in accident) is a NO-NO IMHO.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Scary meat buyer story here. This loser lives about 10 miles from me I have rescued 5 from them well the Horse network here stumbled upon the farm or the holding area they had over 150 head on this farm on the body scale from 1-10 they rated them from a 4 on down to a 1.5 what hay they had was in manure and urine soaked standing in stalls knee deep manure. These horses all waiting for their turn to go north or south. The group called the Dept of Agric. he investigated found they had food and water so no charges brought. Now before you think all grade horses nope one of my rescues was the arab he was extremely well bred came from North Dakota all old polish breeding. Anything can end up in their hands. These people are scum I hope karma catches up to them really soon.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

Some back your breeders breed good stock, but most not so much. But it's the big ramuda's that breed 100+ mares that sell the colts off as weanlings that are wild and never even been touched. Those are the ones that are flooding the market. Not the dinky byb. JMO


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Hey i dont think its really has that much to do with how many you breed, either 1 or2, or 50+. You really just need to think if you need to be breeding, do your research. I know some people who are professionals who are breeding tons of crap foals that they now cant sell. There are to many ignorant breeders who dont do any market research and there are just not enough kind ignorant buyers to purchase what being bred. ypu can breed nice horses but without the whole package it doesnt work, i.e bad nutrition and hoofcare will cause conformation faults that might not have been there to begin with. No training = harder to sell etc etc


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

There is a big breeder not that far from us that breeds up to 100 mares per year. Some of his horses sell for $10,000 and more as two year olds. He does almost no hoof care, no training, and he gets in trouble with the department of agriculture on occasion for keeping his horses too thin. When the horses are close to being ready to show, he takes them to a show barn with a trainer. They get a crash course in training and get their hooves fixed and they get some grooming. I think that this guy is the biggest jerk on the planet. He cares nothing about the horses except for the money he can make off of them. I would much rather buy a horse from a back yard breeder that owned a couple of mares. At least the baby would have been handled and loved.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Celeste said:


> I would much rather buy a horse from a back yard breeder that owned a couple of mares. At least the baby would have been handled and loved.


Not necessarily true. I know backyard breeders who are in it for money, have skinny horses with way overgrown hooves and the babies are not handled or trained and they certainly aren't loved. Backyard breeding does NOT ensure handling or love with horses any more than it does with dogs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

Dresden said:


> Not necessarily true. I know backyard breeders who are in it for money, have skinny horses with way overgrown hooves and the babies are not handled or trained and they certainly aren't loved. Backyard breeding does NOT ensure handling or love with horses any more than it does with dogs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Dresden said:


> Not necessarily true. I know backyard breeders who are in it for money, have skinny horses with way overgrown hooves and the babies are not handled or trained and they certainly aren't loved. Backyard breeding does NOT ensure handling or love with horses any more than it does with dogs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Unfortunately, you are probably right.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

What constitutes a backyard breeder say for instance someone has a stallion with a proven show record and a mare with a similar or better record breeds these two the resulting foal was wanted for purchase by someone or the breeder wanted to put the two together in hopes of getting a equal or better show horse. Say your a barrel racer you have two great horses always in the money you breed them to get your next barrel horse or because another racer wants to buy said foal.


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## morehandclaps (Aug 9, 2011)

wild horses said:


> You really just need to think if you need to be breeding, do your research.


I completely agree with this. As it is with most things in life and almost all things involving horses (especially when a big choice is involved), you need to do your research. Even if someone who wants to breed a horse thinks they know enough, they should check it over with people who have already bred good horses, their vet, and/or books and such to make sure they do. 

In the end it is a person's own choice to breed or not to breed, but there are a growing number of horses in the US, at least, and aren't enough people to take care of them or raise them to be sell-able horses. What happens when someone with even ten horses they bred themselves need to be sold because they got over their head? It's a wonderful, huge lesson to learn, but at what point does the damage outweigh the knowledge? Being prepared doesn't hurt, even if it seems they're over-prepared, it's better than not being prepared enough.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

morehandclaps said:


> I completely agree with this. As it is with most things in life and almost all things involving horses (especially when a big choice is involved), you need to do your research. Even if someone who wants to breed a horse thinks they know enough, they should check it over with people who have already bred good horses, their vet, and/or books and such to make sure they do.


I can not ever figure out why people seem to think checking with a vet is such a mark of asking for good advice. I have yet to find a vet who actually can pick out a good breeding horse. Several of the vets I know actually breed too. They are Ok but I would never ask their advice on what I should or should not bred. Heck they are not even good at the vet part of breeding either. 

If you need advice find a mentor who has been breeding what you are wanting to breed and have been success full in it over the long haul. I have mentors who have owned and breed Hall of Fame horses OPEN world champions and so on. I know when I get advice from them they know what they are talking about as they have been doing it for a long time. Vets not so much.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

wild horses said:


> another thing standardbred/pacers do not cross well with anything! the offspring will never be worth more than meatwork value. So many people are ignorant and pick up ex harness racing mare and think they will be great to cross.. i see so many proud breeders of skinny, ugly, funky moving horses that nobody will buy


Since when? Standardbreds are JUST a breed... just like Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, Arabians. Yes, they are well known for the extreme speed at which they can trot and pace, but that doesn't mean they can't be cross bred successfully. Should they be? Probably not, but then again, nor should other breeds. Personally, I love Standardbreds. They are beautiful, kind, affectionate and intelligent. Throw a Standardbred in a field with other horses and most people would be hard-pressed to pick the Standie out. They're just like other horses... and have just as much a chance to produce a gorgeous grade foal as a Quarter Horse has to produce a mess of a foal.


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## morehandclaps (Aug 9, 2011)

With the vet I was thinking more along the lines of their physical ability to breed and to make sure there aren't any problems with the mares body overall that could affect foals when they're born or during pregnancy/birth. I understand that many vets (probably most) don't know the last thing about breeding horses past being able to help the foal out if there are complications and so forth. The vets I have encountered have known those things (physical-wise), but you're right- not much more when it comes to actually breeding a good line/good horses in general. I was also simply giving a list of things they should check with, the most important first in the list. On top of talking with experienced friends, having a vet check out your horse(s) would not be a bad idea. Vets may not know anything about breeding, but most of them do what they're paid for, which is to tell an owner if the horse is healthy or not. 

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I can definitely see your point. Those with experience should be asked first and foremost about such things, especially if they've had success in their endeavours!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Not a problem. I do agree that a vet needs to be part of the equation but not past the normal vet type deal.


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## sssmith (Apr 11, 2010)

My mother breeds dogs. She had a beautiful dog... with a great personality and perfect in every way. She ithey are all registered and she researches all if their lineage. However, said dog had a certain gene from her great grandfather that my mother did not catch somehow until it was too late. The ***** had a litter of 5 puppies that all lived about 10 daysand then started showing their deformities. She had to havethem all euthanized and their mama spayed. It was very sad for all involved. Sorry. That was just an example. Lineage is very important when intentionally breeding anything. Because sometimes even fatal genes xan be suppressed for generations. Just to make sure everyone and everything involved doesn't end up broken hearted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Since when? Standardbreds are JUST a breed... just like Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, Arabians. Yes, they are well known for the extreme speed at which they can trot and pace, but that doesn't mean they can't be cross bred successfully. Should they be? Probably not, but then again, nor should other breeds. Personally, I love Standardbreds. They are beautiful, kind, affectionate and intelligent. Throw a Standardbred in a field with other horses and most people would be hard-pressed to pick the Standie out. They're just like other horses... and have just as much a chance to produce a gorgeous grade foal as a Quarter Horse has to produce a mess of a foal.


Standard bred horses are lovely, they are fantastic horses for what they are bred for. Read back through and you will find i posted something about this. Its just that people pick them up for cheap and breed from them, for What?? the standy cross i just brought, the guy who bred her didnt even realise standart bred horses are pacers..... for english riders, which is what most of the horseriders in my country are, standy crosses, with ugly head and paces, are not desirable, i dont know a single riding instructor who would recomend them to be brought for a childs pony, yet peopl breed them by the bucketload. Its not that they are bad horses, its just that there is a very limited market for them, for every lovely one, that goes on to be a multi discipline awsome horses theres is about 20 who end up in a trekking string or dog food because know one wants them.


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## Angelina1 (Apr 11, 2011)

I have a Standardbred Cross and she is just perfect for my expectations. In my country Standardbreds are crossed with Arabians for Endurance Horses which is quite successful. Also many instructors here also recommend that first time horse owners, beginners and children should start with a Standardbred due to thier temperament etc. Plus the PACE is taught and trained into the breed it is not a natural gait that they are born with. A foal will learn from the Mare if she is the Standie and paces, which is where people become confused. I have seen some of the most gorgeous, well conformed Standie crosses that out shine the most so called well breed horses in the show ring..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Dresden said:


> Not necessarily true. I know backyard breeders who are in it for money, have skinny horses with way overgrown hooves and the babies are not handled or trained and they certainly aren't loved. Backyard breeding does NOT ensure handling or love with horses any more than it does with dogs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very true. I think it all depends on what one calls BYB. There is BYB and "home" breeder. 1st one is usually someone breeding for just money or out of ignorance and very often the horses and babies are not well cared (if at all). 2nd is someone breeding own mare knowing what (s)he is doing and with plan on what to do with the baby. BYB != "home breeder". Personally I have no problems at all with "home" breeders.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

wild horses said:


> Standard bred horses are lovely, they are fantastic horses for what they are bred for. Read back through and you will find i posted something about this. Its just that people pick them up for cheap and breed from them, for What?? the standy cross i just brought, the guy who bred her didnt even realise standart bred horses are pacers..... for english riders, which is what most of the horseriders in my country are, standy crosses, with ugly head and paces, are not desirable, i dont know a single riding instructor who would recomend them to be brought for a childs pony, yet peopl breed them by the bucketload. Its not that they are bad horses, its just that there is a very limited market for them, for every lovely one, that goes on to be a multi discipline awsome horses theres is about 20 who end up in a trekking string or dog food because know one wants them.


You're wrong. Not all Standardbreds are pacers. Even fewer are natural pacers. Why do you think they wear hobbles and other gear? It's to help them keep the pace because it's not always a natural gait for them. Standardbreds will naturally walk, trot, canter and gallop. Some have a higher affinity for pacing, but few come by it so naturally that they don't require the use of hobbles.

I don't agree with breeding a cheap, poorly conformed horse. I really don't. But at the same time, I don't think a horse should be deemed unworthy because of it's breed. In my experience, Standardbreds make wonderful riding horses. Yes, their trot can be rather uncomfortable to sit, but that's temporary until they learn how to collect themselves. Almost every Standardbred I've worked with has demonstrated a calm, kind and high amicable demeanor. Few have ever offered to nip and even fewer have attempted to buck when we'd hop on in the middle of a field. Keep in mind that these horses had never been formally backed... they just accepted us on their back. They don't understand leg cues right off the bat, but they are completely broken and bombproof otherwise.

Not all Standies come with ugly heads, either. They are just as likely to have a dainty Arabian-type head, or one that resembles a Warmblood or Thoroughbred. Old-style Standardbreds did have the workhorse, jughead type head but years of breeding has created an extreme variation in appearance. I've seen purebred Standies that I could have sworn were overgrown Arabians or Quarter Horses. My soon to be mare looks like a stocky Thoroughbred. She has a lovely, fine and dainty face. 

I agree with you when you say poorly bred horses shouldn't be bred. However, I do not agree with your statement that all Standies are ugly or poor riding horses. That's like saying all Arabians are crazy or that draft horses are useless for anything but plodding work. Standardbreds were bred for a purpose, but they are amazingly versatile. Just because you don't know a single instructor that would recommend them as a riding horse/child's pony doesn't mean they can't excel at it. It's a matter of training and temperament, and with the proper handling... almost any horse can become a good riding horse.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Why should ugly horses not be good horses anyway?
I happen to ride a pretty horse, but if she were ugly, I would still ride her. I don't have to look at her because I am on her; the people I ride with do. Who cares whether she is pretty or ugly if she is a solid, sound, sane horse? 
By the way, don't standardbreds race at a trot as well as at a pace? I thought most of them were trotters.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

Celeste said:


> Who cares whether she is pretty or ugly if she is a solid, sound, sane horse? QUOTE] I agree, cant ride pretty, my best mount and companion when I was a kid, would have won the ugly award, but fifty years has pasted, still havent found one as good as he was. :-|


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Just wanted to add my two cents...

My Aires is from a breeder out of Canada (was told by my BO that he was a PMU foal...come to find out from his breeder, he was actually NOT bred as part of the PMU program). He was bred at a fairly large stable that produces some good-looking Percherons and crosses their mares to TBs, QHs, and paints to produce sport horses. His sire is one of the fugliest horses I've seen and all his fugliness is conformational (long back, thick neck, weird legs), but luckily Aires has taken after his dam (with his sire's paint coloring) and is a darned good-looking horse. Even with all this working in his favor, he was going to be sent to the slaughter house as a weanling because the breeder anticipated the market wrong and overbred, so they had almost a dozen foals they couldn't sell, including purebred Percherons, not just their sport horses. This was a responsible, respected breeder who carefully manages their breeding program and yet even THEY had too many foals to sell. 

I look at all that Aires went through to get to where he is today and it seriously turns me off to breeding horses. If a responsible breeder can end up in the mess that his breeders were in, how much more likely is that to happen to someone who just throws two horses together to get a pretty horse and sell it, as many backyard or home breeders do.

Also, there's the case of Aires' half sister, who was also rescued by our BO. She is out of the same sire and was foaled within a month of Aires. She inherited their sire's conformational faults (long back, thick neck, etc) and her temperament is a bit...off. She friendly enough, but she is completely unwilling to learn (or maybe even uncapable of it?). We tried lunging her one day (my friend was looking at buying her), but whereas Aires picked up lunging within a few minutes, Piper just stood there looking at us with her ears pinned back. Added to that, she was perfectly sound when they put her on the trailer to come down to Arizona...when they unloaded her, her left front leg was twisted out at almost a 45 degree angle and they have yet to figure out how or why. There was no evidence of injury or trauma at all (they had the vet check all four of the foals they brought down immediately after they arrived). She is now a two-year-old who has a severe deformation of her front leg that makes her useless as anything but a light riding/trail horse. And this is a horse that came from the exact same breeder (and same sire) that my intelligent, athletic, eager-to-please, sane Aires came from. Just goes to show that the good traits don't always get passed on to the next generation, regardless of how much you want them to be like their sire or dam.

When I first purchased Aires, he was intact (BO didn't see a reason to geld him yet since he wasn't acting studdy). I remember several of the girls at the stable asking me if I was going to breed him before I gelded him because he was so "purdy." My friend even wondered aloud what a cross between Aires and her 14hh chestnut arab mare would end up like. I do admit, I sometimes wonder what we would have ended up with if the foal had inherited Cassie's insanely fast single-foot combined with Aires' smooth-as-glass trot, but then I think "What would we have done with the foal? I don't need another horse and neither does my friend...and there's no way I'd sell a grade foal on the open market in my area. Too many 'oh, look, a pretty horsey...let's buy it!' kind of people out there who don't know what the heck they're doing."

If you're breeding for a purpose and producing quality horses for a specific job where there's a market, great. More power to you. If you're breeding just because you want one "just like Fifi," you're taking a page from the oldest BYB book out there and seriously need to rethink your priorities. Are you doing this to satisfy some emotional need of yours or because you really feel that your horse combined with an exceptional and complimentary mate could produce a great performance horse? If it's the former, save yourself the trouble and money, and buy a foal already on the ground.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

Celeste said:


> By the way, don't standardbreds race at a trot as well as at a pace? I thought most of them were trotters.


All Standies trot, but not all Standies pace. Most Standies are raced at a trot, but some have a natural affinity for pacing and race in that gait. Most have to use hobbles to retain the pace in a race. That said, most trainers don't cross enter their horses - you either have a trotter or a pacer and your horse races in whatever gait it performs best at. At the barn I worked at, we had 40-50 horses at any given time. Of those 50, only about 10 or 11 were pacers. The rest were trotters. We had one oddball who would naturally pace in the field during turnout, but as soon as he was hooked to a training cart or sulky... he forgot how. He'd trip if we stuck him in hobbles and he'd trot if we free-legged him. So he raced in the trotter division.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

okay, lets move on from the standardbred thing. I know some are good, i just dont understand crossing them and where i am there is no market for crossebreds. like someone mentioned they can have nice paces if trained, but some will pace, ,eaning they are incredibly uncomfortable to ride. the people i have met who are breeding standy crosses, were because you can get mares off the track for $100-$800 and breed them to your fugly stallion. the resulting progency are pointless they dont find suitable homes and end up in bad situations its really sad. I dont hate them i feel really bad for the resulting progency that do not have good quality of life because they cannot be assured good homes, just because of their breeding, however this is true of any badly bred horse, the standardbred was just an example.

i really just want people to think before they breed. does it need to be bred? Do you actually know enough to be breeding? is their a market for what your breeding? and can you take good enough care of these horses so that they are happy and healthy? as well as train them well enough to ensure they sell on to good homes?

i dont have a problem with people bredding 1 horse for themselves. But i do with people breeding irresposibly not matter if they breed 1 or 100. 

i dont hate ugly hores, i do think they shouldnt be bred, because alot of ugly horses are that way because of cofmation flaws (it is also harde to find homes for horses that are less than attractive). But i dont agree with breeding horses that are maybe conformationally perfect, but cant stay sound, due to feet, health or genetic weaknesses. 

I just dont want to see all theses horses being bred that end up homeless in bad conditions etc etc because we already have so many horses and not enough buyers!!

p.s standardbred, thouroughbred, mustangs, all of these you can pretty much pick up for free, and they all have huge fanclubs, as well as shelter horses etc etc, why not before breeding go see if your magical horse is there before breeding more horses that may not find a home? You could spend 6 months and a lot less money retraining a horse off the track or 4 years & a lot more money rasing something and get the same result.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

eeekkk just to make me more passionate about not breeding unless you have a whole lot of experiance in the horse industry, i have received so many emails this last week about people giving away horses, it is a recession and suddenly people cant financially support animals that have no value. Horses numbers can become overwhelming pretty quickly, and if you have a whole bunch of feral, ugly, unhealthy horses they are going to be pretty hard to sell when you want to cut your financial loses in a rush.

there seem to be a lot of minatures horses these days being given away. Why ? because while extremly loveable, they dont have much use beside pets. If you have bred 50+, or even jsut a couple, of these little hayburners, and now need to get rid of them its hard enough just to give them away let alone sell them.. They are to small to be ridden, still cost a a fair bit to maitain, you still need grass, good fences, vet care, farrier, and lets face it people are still going to pick pretty ones over ugly ones, so if your mini's are fugly and unregistered its going to be hard to find good homes for them. 

im not anti-breeding, just anti irresponsible breeding i hate seeing horses end up in a bad way. i know mini horses especialy have a lot of potential to end up in bad places because a lot of non-horsey people buy them and assume they will make great family pets......


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## Eclipse295 (Nov 30, 2010)

I voleenteer at a horse rescue I know what you mean, 

An example of things that can go wrong:

We had several mini mares brought in that had been running with a mini stud. No clue when they were due. One of them went into labor, her name is Charm, sweet little chunky pony with red spots on her butt. The foal was *Upside-down, with it's head turned back and one leg folded back, * we had to call 3 vets, the first one got there said, "oh ****" the second 2 came out and actually could help pull the foal, we almost had to cut the foal out of the mare:shockbut didn't) The mare then tried to colic and die for nearly a week after that, however still alive and a real sweet heart. If she hadn't found a great home in a therapy program(which she did) I probably would have brought her home.

*Know ask yourself this question, "What would you do if this happened to you and your favorite mare?"*

Charms story is a great ending to something that could have gone horribly wrong without such great vets and volunteers.


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Eclipse295 said:


> I voleenteer at a horse rescue I know what you mean,
> 
> An example of things that can go wrong:
> 
> ...


 
yea i think when you get a lot of hands on expperiance you come out with a differant veiw on things, you see so many sad situations you cant help but think some would have been better not being born...

funnily enough we got given and old ex-racehorse broodmare, she was in foal when we got her and absaloute skin n bone.. she did exactly the same thing when it came time to foal....it took my mother and me 4 hours to deliver the foal, we live to far away for any vets to get there in the middle of thenight...unfortunatly the reason for the horrible birth was that the foal had such terrible leg deformities which is how it got twisted and stuck. we put the foal down within twentyfour hours......interestingly enough the vet mentioned that this can be caused by lack of nutrition during foal development, meaning that mare was in agony, and that foal died just because some one didnt look after her.


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