# New rider needs advice on horse communication.



## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Hello.
I've been riding for about...I guess if it's hours, I have maybe 50 hours: a week of intensive trail riding twice a day where I sat on a hearty very patient Belgian girl who did all the thinking, climbed like a champion, dived for weeds and pretty much ignored my ignorance. Lesson wise to date: I have about 15 hours with four hours english and the remainder western. I tack up groom clean up wash down, clean the stall, etc etc. basic beginner. I walk, trot, lope/canter erratically but i'm very comfortable on my horse, sit pretty well and I like handling horses. I am 65 years old and I am not small, but I am fit as hell - couldn't do this if I weren't (the saddle alone would lay me down to rest). 

I have always wanted to ride but I didn't have the money or the accessibility. In fact, I am an artist and did a few paintings about riding, knowing nothing. Trust me when I say I know what I'm doing now is a pure gift.

You gotta know the first time I got up on a horse, I teared up. What moved me was that immediate willingness and stoicism, how his beautiful muscles gently shifted for me and how he instantly did his job trying to understand what I was trying to tell him. 

I've learned to be still although I'm not nearly as still as I should be, but I work at it, my body is talking to him and I don't know what I'm saying half the time. And I don't know what my horse is saying the other half. So I need some help.

While I will take lessons I know that I need to learn as much as I can off my horse to understand them. You see I have a wonderful Morgan I am riding this summer. He is an excellent horse, almost perfect (he thinks). Patient. Well trained. English and Western. He's huge. And gentle. He and I are trying very hard to understand each other and we've become pretty good friends...I do everything I can to communicate love to him. Because he is worthy of nothing less. 

MY PROBLEM: I thought yesterday he wasn't into our lesson. Right off the bat he wouldn't even move forward for me, nomatter whether I let up or kicked or clicked or encouraged. Wouldn't take direction, leg or hand. Eventually he went along with the lesson, but then he stumbled twice. And during the canter, I know I was sending him mis-clues but even from the start nomatter where I looked or where I pressed or reined he went where he went. Or where he thought I wanted to go. Then he took off like crazy, I got him halted but it was scary. No doubt I sent the wrong message. But I know he is sending me messages too. My instructor said (and she is a smart girl) he didn't have much patience for me yesterday. I think she is right. 

My instinct was, and I know I know nothing, that he wasn't into the lesson from the getgo. I asked her in the beginning of the lesson if I should dismount and stop but she said no. I know he is well trained. He knows how to do a lesson. So maybe I was being indulgent or maybe he really didn't feel up to it. Maybe he ate something or whatever. 

It was hot and very humid and we were in mud and I am not small and neither is he. So maybe he was tired? I mean he's alive and he has a mind. 

Is it his job to always be there for me? Can he tell me "I"m tired"? What do I do when he does? 

In any case, I think he is always telling me things. Just like I tell him things. I don't understand him yet. And I want to more than anything. He is a grand horse and I'm so loving his generous spirit.

are there books I can read? Or videos or places to go online where I can get more information about how horses think, how horses communicate and how I can better communicate with them? I know it will take riding to know how to handle myself more effectively. But in the meantime, there are only so many hours in the day and I'd like to learn what I can when not I'm up and in the saddle.

Thank you in advance,
Cynthia


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Cynthia, 
and welcome to the forum. You write so very beautifully. I loved your descriptions of how the horse moved under you. One notices those things when they slow down. That's why I appreciate some long, slow walks in the woods.

anyway, I think you are becoming very empathetic to your horse, and knowing that he might not want to do antoher lesson is wieghing on your mind. I can totally relate to that. It's hard for me to demand much of a school horse when I know that he does this for so many times, over and over, the same thing. 
But, his life is not bad. He is well fed, he works maybe three hourse a day, four tops, and usually more like two. That's pretty good wages ; room and board for a few hours a day of work.
And, if you allow the horse to be less than honest in his responses to your requests, then you make him duller for the next person , who may not treat his laziness with as much empathy as you do.

I try to stay "fair" when dealing with a school horse. Don't blame him for trying to conserve energy, dont' expect him to be super responsive. So, I give him every chance to respond when I ask, but, I will let him know that I wont' ask indefinitely, I will lay a little whip on him if he ignores me, then I'll go right back to "asking".
And, if he gives me a good effort, I 'll take the time to let him walk on a long rein and give him some nice wither scratches. 

I cannot indulge him totally in not doing any work, but I won't expect him to be perfect. Lesson horses learn a lot of tricks that they use to protect their mouths and backs, but you can't blame them. Horses are super good at self preservation.


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## kac7700 (Apr 20, 2012)

Wow Cynthia, I'm pretty new to this too and you put this so eloquently. I've studied, I've read, I've watched videos on YouTube and don't miss a Julie Goodnight or Clinton Anderson show on RFD-TV, take lessons, and spend every spare minute I have with my horse (it's our 2 month "anniversary" today.) You put into words what I hope a lot of new horse people are feeling...I have learned that if you don't get the right answer from your horse, you're not asking the right question, but I do believe there are off days too. 

I'm very curious what replies come here because I want to know too. Welcome to the forum and thank you for this.


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

wild old thing said:


> You gotta know the first time I got up on a horse, I teared up. What moved me was that immediate willingness and stoicism, how his beautiful muscles gently shifted for me and how he instantly did his job trying to understand what I was trying to tell him.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> Cynthia


The fact that you noticed/felt/grasped/found significant what you stated in that paragraph alone is HUGE, in my opinion. I have to be honest and admit that reading what you wrote caused ME to tear up...

For me (and apparently you too), it's all about the relationship between you and your horse and the bond that is built between the two of you. Whatever else is involved, that's the core of it. I started riding when I was 10 (in the early 60s) and through western pleasure, barrels, poles, reining, various other events and a seriously large amount of trail riding, that's always been the core of it for me.

You may be a beginner, but you've already got a mighty important part of it right! 

Whatever you do, stick with it....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Liny, ordinarily that will work: i try to ask quietly, then insist, then demand and with him it's usually where I'll ask and he'll do either instantly or within a try or two. he's not just for lessons. he's also a competition horse. I'm very lucky to have him these next couple of months. 

but he was definitely off yesterday. or he AND I were. 

but you are right, I know that. I am trying to be more decisive with him. but I haven't found the exact right way of addressing him or his complaints. I tend to think we are having a kind of dialogue. I do expect him to be consistent, like I try to be. but he has moments when he's not paying attention or he's feeling like he'd rather be rolling in the dirt and not bothering. 

I've never been angry with him. in fact, he makes me laugh because he IS so damned good and makes me look good. I do get annoyed that he will balk at a go ahead and then i have to kick, which I can do pretty effectively, maybe too effectively now. he doesn't like the kick. (like I said, he thinks he's perfect.)

sometimes my legs are working so well and his flanks respond perfectly to the pressure. and sometimes it's crazy, it's so inconsistent, like he's never laid eyes on me before in his life. he has those moments, usually in the beginning of a lesson. and I'm not good enough yet to ease him out of it smoothly and quickly. I have to find the way that works instinctively for me. 

so I think that's what I need to learn, to understand what he's complaining about so I can deal with it if you follow my drift. it could be he's just playing games, whining or whatever horses do to avoid putting it out. but I think sometimes its that I'm not doing it right, not speaking right, not being clear and he's telling ME something and I'm not getting it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, being aware when there is a shishm in the lines of communication is certainly a great skill to have. It sounds that you are maintaining a pretty solid focus on your horse, thus you can tell when he is with you and when he is not. This is kind of rare in a lot of riders. They just assume that since THEY want to slow down/speed up, that the horse is thinking with them. But the hrose is thinking about what the other horses are doing back at the barn, or what the rustling in the bushes is all about.

It really is absolute key to riding to be aware of "where your horse's mind is". horses are programmed to keep being outwardly focussed and scan their environment for danger every 30 secs or so. We have to be aware of that and alway be aware of when our horse has left us mentally. But neither do we want to yank their attention back, unless the horse has yanked his attention far away and endangers us. If the though is still light, it may not take much at all to bring them back. It can be like a silk thread; I light hand brings it back, pull too hard and it will break.

I thought about this this morning when I tried like the dickens to get Zulu to cross the muddy creek and come to me for 'catching", instead of me having to cross it and go to him. The most of the herd came over to see if I had carrots, but Zulu stood watching. I tried to keep him watching me, and I watched his face to see the "click" when he makes the decision to move. I tried moving his rear feet a bit, because sometiems just moving a horse's feet will tip him over the balance into a decision. But, push too hard and he will decide to leave me for the open 40 acres. 
So, like I said, I "broke" out his rear feet, but he did not come, and in fact, chose to start walking away. So, I crossed the creek and walked partly behind, partly in his left eye and gently scuffled the rope against my thigh to get his attention. When he looked out of curiousity, I paused and held out my hand (with small carrot, which he can barely see). He goes to eat the grass, and I gently scuffle the rope (hey! I am still here!) he looks back, pauses and then decides "well, she's not going to leave me alone so I might as well go see what she wants". He walks right up. gets carrot and some rubs. No rushing. just some petting and time together then put the halter on.

walking him the long road back to the barn, if he starts to turn back to "hollar" at the herd, I look for him to leave me mentally, and i give the rope the tiniest little wiggle, . . he comes back to me. The sooner I catch the thought that is leaving, the lighter that thought is and the easier it is to invite it back to me.

Look to your horse, where is his thought? How heavy is it?


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

kac and radiowaves, thank you so much for making me feel welcome. really. and you too Tiny. 

I do love riding horses. communicating with animals is something I have come to rather late in my life. being a city girl, I always had some animal or another but never dogs who are intense animals to bond with. but then fifteen years ago we got a rescue dog. my first dog. a great american bulldog. what a girl she was! then we got another rescue. and another. and by luck, I've come to horses. I could kick myself that I didn't do this fifty years ago! but this will do.

I know animals talk to us - they have to, we are so imposing in their lives. I believe we have to listen, that's all there is to it. if we are going to be together then I have to learn their language. they don't seem to have a problem understanding me when they want to. that's what I learned from dogs..that they get us alright and they know how to say what they need to say. we just have to watch them. I think it's the same with all animals in our sphere...they do a real effective job of communicating - something. but I haven't learned horse yet! and I need to.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Call me "Tiny", if you don't mind. It inflates my ego because I am pretty overweight.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Tiny, I can tell you after that lesson he was very pensive. VERY heavy. he didn't put up a fuss for treats. (I always have carrots and an apple for him) and when I took him across the way to turn him out, instead of running off like a happy boy and rolling in the dirt, he stood there with me about three feet away, just looking at me. rosie the young mare who always greets us was there but he didn't go to her. he stood looking at me for a while. and I looked at him. I called him to me to come closer but he didn't move. he just stood for the longest time, and then turned and went out to his pasture with his friend.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

hahahha tiny. hahahahah

you can call me tiny too. hahahahahahah (I'm cracking up here)


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> Well, being aware when there is a shishm in the lines of communication is certainly a great skill to have. It sounds that you are maintaining a pretty solid focus on your horse, thus you can tell when he is with you and when he is not. This is kind of rare in a lot of riders. They just assume that since THEY want to slow down/speed up, that the horse is thinking with them. But the hrose is thinking about what the other horses are doing back at the barn, or what the rustling in the bushes is all about.
> 
> It really is absolute key to riding to be aware of "where your horse's mind is". horses are programmed to keep being outwardly focussed and scan their environment for danger every 30 secs or so. We have to be aware of that and alway be aware of when our horse has left us mentally. But neither do we want to yank their attention back, unless the horse has yanked his attention far away and endangers us. If the though is still light, it may not take much at all to bring them back. It can be like a silk thread; I light hand brings it back, pull too hard and it will break.
> 
> ...


I woke up this morning thinking of about this wonderful slice of advice. you're quite the writer your own self! I realize now there's a certain quiet I haven't achieved. i'm so damned excited when I get up there to ride. for me, this is a great adventure. and now that i think about it, I go in to his stall probably too exuberant and while he always greets me in a way that seems happy: he nods his great head and then I'll hug him hello and rub his head and flank. still, I must consider he's in a cow collar so he's not going anywhere. 

my routine is I'll start talking nonsense, saying hello while I rub his neck and sides. then I groom and talk and tell him he's great and we're going to have a good ride. maybe it's time to stop being so happy and excited and be slower and steady with him. 

they are very different, horses. I thought of them as I would dogs but I think in fact, they may be opposites. dogs are predatory. so you can baby them, talk high pitched and keep them happy and excited. but horses, maybe not. maybe it's time for deeper quiet.

Tiny I thank you for this particular bit of information about how they continuously scan for danger. I knew they are prey but it never occurred to me that they are proactively on the alert all the time. this is an exceptional horse, btw. he's got a strong personality but he's compliant, knowledgeable and **** near as perfect as he thinks he is. 

I'm not in awe of him but I am very grateful for his good nature and his exceptional abilities. I know he'll provide what I ask for when I learn how to. now I'll have to start asking quieter and more definitively. I think I understand a little more and for this I am very grateful. Thank you so much.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Basically, you can affect horses by either "pushing" them or "drawing" them.
We push them when we ride, because we put our leg on and cause the hrose to move away from the leg. We push them when we ask them to step their hinds over, or to move their shoulders over, or to move away from us or to go through a gate, into a trailer and such. We apply either a direct feel of pressure via our hands or use a tool of some sort.
We draw a horse by using their intrinsic curiousity to make them want to come closer. They want to be near things that make them feel safe and stable. They want to approach things that they need to check out; safe or not safe?
A skilled rider also "draws" the horse, by using his seat he creates more energy than the horse's current gait, thus the horse is "drawn" into this state of more energy and picks ups speed or puts more "umph" into his movement.

In the stall, you can push the horse to move his bum away from you, if he doesn't do so on his own when you arrive at the door (you should always have the horse with bum away from you to enter), or you can 'draw" him to you by pickng on his natural curiosity and making him want to look at you, approach you and see what you might have for him. One is him responding by moving away, (he wants to keep his bum safe , because if a dominat horse asks him to move and he doesnt', he'd get a sharp bite). The other is him checking out a stiumuls to see if it's good or bad.

I like to draw a horse to me, whenever I can. And I enjoy seeing how little I can use to achieve this. you watch the horse's eye and ear and when you see him make any kind of change, you know he has seen your draw and is thinking about it. Stop right there. Let him make the decision to come and investigate. You stop BEFORE he actually turns, you stop where he is thinking about the decision, but you let him tip himself over into being committed to moving his feet. It's a very fine line, but if you can let the hrose make this decision on his own, it carries much more weight, so to speak. He may decide NOT to come toward you. So, you put a little more activity into getting his attention, but not much more and wait to see if he'll come this time. When he does make that decision, you stand calm and steady, and may even turn your core (your belly) away from him at a slight angle . This takes off pressure. you can also take a small step backward or off to the side, if the hrose needs a bit more "invitation".


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

wild old thing said:


> they are very different, horses. I thought of them as I would dogs but I think in fact, they may be opposites. dogs are predatory. so you can baby them, talk high pitched and keep them happy and excited. but horses, maybe not. maybe it's time for deeper quiet.


That's the ticket!

They assess & read YOUR manner/state-of-alertness/etc extremely well. If you seem "excited" then he'll perceive that and may become agitated/excited as well. He doesn't know if you are excited because (1) the feed truck just turned over and there is an all-you-can-eat buffet a few feet away or (2) there is a dragon a few feet behind you ready to eat both of you; he just knows you're excited! ;-) You are right on target with the "quieter manner" on your part. He'll perceive that as well....

A while back, right before a trail ride my horse and I had to chase down and drive a runaway horse back in through the front gate.
He's a very quiet/calm trail horse but he sensed MY sense of urgency and he ramped up to "roundup mode" almost instantly. After we had (with much Divine help) driven the runaway horse back inside the gate, he was keyed up and all but asking me "come on dad, who can we chase NOW?".  So, I calmed MY manner back down to trail ride mode and he followed suit almost immediately. They are incredibly perceptive.

I bet your horse will pick up on your quieter manner very quickly....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katbalu (Sep 8, 2011)

(quietly subbing, because I want to read this later, when I'm not so tired, and I don't want to forget to look it up. Things are quieter when they are in parenthesis)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

katbalu said:


> (quietly subbing, because I want to read this later, when I'm not so tired, and I don't want to forget to look it up. Things are quieter when they are in parenthesis)
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could barely hear you.... ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

quit whispering, you two!


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## katbalu (Sep 8, 2011)

Son of a b****. I didn't mean to kill this thread 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey! ain't dead yet!  

(But ask me later - unseasonable heatwave moving in and that stall can get hellishly hot even with fans going.)

I have a lesson late today. And I've decided on a plan to reintroduce myself to him, assuming he thinks I'm an idiot and has settled on his own plan which might be to either ignore me mostly and look at what everyone else is doing or what he thinks everyone should be doing, or respond slowly while trying to figure out what in hell I'm asking him to do. The last one is okay with me. I'll ask. I'll keep asking. If I think he's being stubborn, I'll press harder, but I'm going to take it slow this time around. And maybe the next. However long it takes. We'll find our way. And I'll find my voice.

Today I won't enter his stall but stand a bit outside his range and rustle a rope or something or talk to my neighbor, but I'll have a carrot close by, figuring he can smell it and me. When he looks at me, then I'll move in his stall slowly and give him his carrot, rub his head and proceed to grooming, slowly. Low pitched, low key talk. And being that it's hot and I'm old they won't push us during our lesson like they might the kids, and I can take it slow and easy with the big boy until he and I have found a way to understand each other.

Like I've said, he's a real good horse, a gentleman. So we'll proceed from that vantage point, and I'll try to be a lady with all fingers and toes crossed.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

How did it go today?


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Lesson's at 4. 

I promise to report how it goes!


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Excellent lesson this afternoon.

I followed the plan and came in, waiting for him to notice and acknowlege me, standing just out of range beside the stall, talking to my neighbor, gathering up our stuff/grooming tools/reins/etc but not going in. he's big and wide (too much grass lately I think), so he had to move his hind quarters to the side to see me. and he did. I went in, very easy...said hello and gently touched his flank. I fed him a nice apple quarter and then slowly started grooming. this time I did not speak conversationally, but kept my voice down, almost whispering to him. he was obviously happy to see me. but I didn't let that make me excited or happier. I stayed calm and cool. 

the difference was dramatic. he actually helped me get his bridle on, opening his mouth wide. it was hilarious. he's SUCH a great horse! 

we had moments when he still wasn't understanding me, but it's okay. the chief instructor was there today helping with my issue with steering him and showing me how to press his side and let go. press and as soon as he even moves in that direction, to let go. (I had sent her an email over the weekend, describing my difficulties and concerns as I did with you all and she and I had a short discussion beforehand). 

there is another student who has the same concerns as I, although he is far more experienced with horses (just not riding). he and I are not big believers in the kick. I know it has it's place but it's not a solution to a horse not understanding what you're telling him in the first place. we feel it's on us to convey properly. 

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE we have been assigned the best of the best horses at this stable (and this is a seriously excellent fascility. I won't name it but you'd know it if I did.) we are given the easiest horses to ride, meaning the most patient and experienced. and if we can't communicate with THESE horses, these highly trained horses, then it's time to hang up the proverbial hat. and for me - well, I'm not about to do that by a long shot. 

So thank you for all your kind words of encouragment, your advice and your assistance. Today was a good day thanks to you (particularly you, Tiny) (big hug from here).


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

wild old thing said:


> Excellent lesson this afternoon.


Well how cool is all that!!!! Ain't it wonderful when things work out so well?  Sounds like you did really well with the "quiet manner" thing and it sounds like he picked right up on it just like we'd hoped!

So glad it all went well and was a fun/good time...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you are remarkably perceptive.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiowaves said:


> Well how cool is all that!!!! Ain't it wonderful when things work out so well?  Sounds like you did really well with the "quiet manner" thing and it sounds like he picked right up on it just like we'd hoped!
> 
> So glad it all went well and was a fun/good time...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it is SO cool. we had a great time. 

tomorrow it's going to be a scorcher here..possibly over a hundred. I know for some of you that's a walk in the park but up here this kind of heat is rare this time of year and bodies haven't acclimated. I'll be up there for my lesson but if it's dangerously hot, I might sit it out but more likely work in slooooooooooooooooooooooow motion.

Thanks.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> you are remarkably perceptive.


ah thanks. I don't know about that. I just know I like hanging out with horses.


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