# Why Do Horses Segregate Other Horses?



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Hierarchy. We have a herd of five here. The lead boss mare who is a WICKED crazy herd animal, her "favourite" is our oldest gelding. He follows her like a dog. Then there's our pony, who will push the others and test our other gelding but never boss mare. Then on the lowest is our Lady, she's the youngest mare at 12. Everyone will make her eat last, threaten whatever. She will not challenge the others, and the boss mare will keep her at a safe distance away from the others. She's submissive on the dominance scale and she's not a good leader so they will make her be a good follower. That's how natural order works. Then there's my colt, who bothers no one and keeps to himself away from the herd. He wont go near them. But, even lady will sink her teeth into him (he's 2) if he gets close. Our boss mare is the oldest at 21, and she KNOWS what to do in situation where they need guidance and she makes sure everyone's in line. She chooses whether they know enough to make decisions or not, if they don't, they WILL listen to her. No one goes near her favourite gelding, second in line. When he makes a decision he looks to her and she assesses it. Then they act on her "orders". I put this into as many human terms as possible to make it understandable lol


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Will add, if they didn't do this then everyone would be running around terrified because a herd member who's not a leader would be sending them off running from everything. When one reacts, the others look to the lead mare to see if the reaction should be followed. If they didn't they'd go nuts all the time over everything. When I sit in the pasture, sometimes one will bolt and the others will stand there looking at them like they have two heads, but when the seasoned leader bolts, no one questions whether they should run or not. The only one not looking at the random bolter is the lead mare, she's looking for what made them bolt and if it is worth running from.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've thought of hierarchy as the reason, but it doesn't make complete sense. 
For one thing, the horse that segregates another is sometimes 3rd or 4th down the line and will even keep the "boss" horse away.
In a herd of 10, there was a boss mare, a #2 gelding, and then a mare that seemed to be #3. Then there was this gelding that kept another "middle of the pack" mare segregated and made her stand and eat where he wanted. But he wouldn't let any of the other horses near. This mare did seem deferential to him and did whatever he said.
For another thing, the segregated horse sometimes doesn't seem to listen at all to the protecting horse and the protecting horse seems frustrated trying to keep that horse safe while he does whatever and goes wherever he wants. So sometimes it doesn't even seem like the segregating horse is dominant over the protected horse.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

For the most part I'm a paint & qh person but in the past there were a few times I dabbled with a gaited horse or two. What I tended to notice was the herd pretty much ostracized any gaited horses I brought in. Don't think it was because they were new herd members because I could bring in another paint/qh after the gaited horse and it would be accepted into the herd without a problem. Always made me wonder if horses have breed prejudices.


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## SeaBreezy (Jun 29, 2012)

It's natural for us humans to see patterns in things. We want to say that this horse is #1, this one is #2, etc.; but the herd dynamics of _domesticated_ horses is not always that simple.

Why? Because we buy new horses and introduce them to the herd. We sell horses, leaving a spot open in the hierarchy of the herd. Even just taking your horse out for a trail ride for an hour or two can disrupt the herd.

Feral horses generally know their place in the herd, and it usually doesn't change from birth until death. Our domesticated horses do a lot more 'jockeying', or bickering back and forth to try and establish a comfortable position. As a result, there may not even be a clear alpha horse. Some horses will become a 'bully', and the other horses will try to stay away from him/her.

That being said, most horses would much rather quietly get along rather than fight. I think that horses will 'buddy up' because they seek out a partner who they can get along with the easiest. Horses want harmony - they want a leader that they can follow, or they want to be able to lead by deciding what the others can and cannot do. And if there's too much chaos amongst all of the horses, I think that they pair up with a buddy that makes them feel safe and comfortable.

The hierarchical systems of horses is very complex and always amazing to observe. I love to watch my horses converse with one another with the flick of an ear or the swish of a tail, and it fascinates me to no end.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

I too love observing horses interacting with each other. As for the hierarchy, that is a normal thing for any pack or herd animal. People with more than two dogs will notice the same thing.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Get on youtube and watch a bunch of wild horse videos and you will see that as different things in their social structure change (food/water, age/injury, breeding, weaning, winter/summer, etc.) the hierarchy will change. It's for the most part a fluid thing that is really interesting!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SeaBreezy said:


> It's natural for us humans to see patterns in things. We want to say that this horse is #1, this one is #2, etc.; but the herd dynamics of _domesticated_ horses is not always that simple.
> 
> Why? Because we buy new horses and introduce them to the herd. We sell horses, leaving a spot open in the hierarchy of the herd. Even just taking your horse out for a trail ride for an hour or two can disrupt the herd.
> 
> ...



Just want to add a bit to above, which has very good detail
Domestic horses, because they are forced into being in certain groups, versus having total control of their herd dynamics, can become very protective and attached to another horse that they are very familiar with, and even have been raised with
Thus, we get the horse on a trail ride, ridden with is pasture mate, that threatens and even kicks out at any other horse that comes close (unless taught better by rider! )
Some geldings will drive other geldings off,esp when their favorite mare is in heat
I raised horses for many years, and kept my weanlings separate for the main herd, that first winter. Even after being integrated into the main herd, they kept their own inner 'circle'
In the wild, stallions drive off young stallions, once they reach sexual maturity, and these horses form 'bachelor groups, enjoying each other's company in perfect harmony, until one of them gets some mares of his own
Stallions will also kill foals from another stallion, and some of this instinct is retained by some geldings, to the point they will kill new born foals, and why I never let geldings stay with my late term mares
Thus, many of the herd interacts we see in our domestic horses, is based on their natural programmed behavior, as a herd /prey species, we have altered some of the dynamics that have created that behavior , through domestication
- programed weaning
- selecting the 'herd' a horse lives with, and often arbitrarily changing members in that ;herd'
Introducing the third 'gender', or non gender (geldings )
Actually fueling food aggression,by limiting access to food, by imposing feeding schedules. In the wild, horses don't feel they have to compete for food, or wolf it down 'now', as otherwise it might be gone

Just a few things that we have done, that modifies to some extent, what horses do in the ;wild'


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Domestic horses, because they are forced into being in certain groups, versus having total control of their herd dynamics, can become very protective and attached to another horse that they are very familiar with, and even have been raised with.


So do you feel this isolating other horses is an unnatural thing we've created? I've assumed it must be a natural thing, since it seems fairly common. 

I've wondered also if it could be about developing a secondary hierarchy in case the herd splits up. I suppose there could be different motivations for it depending on gender. I've read that geldings often still think like a stallion, so they may be establishing if they can break off from the group with another horse. If they feel threatened like they might get driven off the main group, maybe they want to prepare to take a gelding along to form a bachelor band, or else a mare to begin a herd.

For mares, I wonder if they may protect a horse from new horses because they might be coming in to disrupt the band or steal their buddy away. Or because they need to establish clearly their place in the hierarchy for the new horse to see.

Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there is no stallion in the herd? It seems like a band of mares only (perhaps the horses get confused about the geldings' role) would expect that a stallion might show up and join the herd. Chances are at that point there would be fighting and the group might split, so maybe this behavior helps the horses know who is going with whom?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Many mares, esp those that have never been bred, are often not aware that a gelding is missing any equipment! They will be quite the hussy, 'showing' to that gelding, when in heat.
There is also the fact that quite a few geldings will mount a mare, even if they have been properly gelded
Horses also don't keep track or who is dominant to whom. Horse A might be dominant to horse B, , but submissive to horse C that B dominates
No, horses don't plan on leaving herds, although anew horse might be kept away from the main herd by all members fro a while,esp those lower down, who don't wish to loose the position they now enjoy
I have had one horse (hubby's ), who always became hard to catch, after some hard days in the mountains, actually herd another horse away, who was very willing to be haltered. He just wanted to keep that horse's company, while not accepting being caught himself
Horses can become possessive of another horse, esp if they have been long time buddies , or raised together.
I'm sure you have seen buddy sour horse, who even when left with a bunch of other horses, and having his buddy taken away, carry on calling, running the fence, ect
Again, we help form these bonds, which at times can be as strong as that mare/foal bond, by keeping horses together long time,, versus letting them live in a large herd , as they would in the Wild, so that their security lies not with just any horse, but that certain buddy


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Funny, my teacher was just talking to me the other day about her Hanoverian mare, who is the dominant horse in her stable. This mare only needs to spend a few isolated hours with another horse (such as being trailered to an event together) and she assumes guardianship (or you could say, possession) of that horse. To the point of being a real pain about it, driving off other horses and always trying to be between other horses and her protege. All the horses at the stable are in individual turnouts, and if a horse is in the wrong turnout this mare has fits until everyone is back the way she thinks it ought to be. 

This mare has a very powerful personality in general and perhaps for lack of a stallion about the place she has assumed some of that role. She would be lead mare in most herds, I should think.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many people often get the herd dynamics wrong. You can have a very bossy horse that seems to assume leadership, often using teeth and heels to become alpha. You can have another horse that doesn't question this leadership and seems to be a follower but the other herd members congregate to her what is known as passive leadership. 

I have had two horses one a mare and the other a gelding that stand out in my memory as being passive leaders.

My old mare would be last to get to the feed bins, she never hassled over food. I would have her out with the mares and foals prior to her becoming 'Aunty' at weaning. 
Watching the feed regime never ceased to amaze me, some of the mares would not allow the foals to share hard food but they would go to Madam and share hers, soon she would have all the foals eating with her. The mares would finish their feed and hassle each other but they would not go anywhere near Madam and the foals. If the did she only had to give them a look - which was never terribly fierce, and they kept away. 

When she went away to stud as a matter of interest I had her turned out with the 'bossy' mares, about eight of them. 
On entering the field they all charged up and wanted to squeal and sort out the new interloper. Madam just ignored them and walked out tnto the field and started eating. Didn't matter what the others did she refused to sniff at them or take any notice. When one mare charged her she just moved out the way with no retaliation. 
A hour later that herd was following her around with no bickering with each other. The stud owner said that when they turned another mare out with them Madam just looked at the other horses and they didn't argue at all.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Foxhunter,
 
I have had a similar experience with my little gelding herd.

Cowboy was a typified micromanaging leader. I added Oliver to the mix, he walked in, ignored all of Cowboy’s gesticulations and threats and ate out of the hay pile without permission. Instant leader; Cowboy is now his ever loyal sidekick.

 I have seen Oliver do the same with a mixed gender herd of 13, and a herd of five mares, it took all of one minute and he had everyone following him without any muss on his part (though with the mare only herd he did have to take a double barrel kick to the ribs without a flinch before she would acquiesce to his leadership).

Watching the kind of leader he was and how he interacted with the other horses gave me a lot of clues as to how I needed to approach training to get the best response.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Herd dynamics are fascinating to watch in most creatures. Someone needs to be in charge for survival.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I read an article once with a theory that the blustering, aggressive type horse in a herd is not actually the #1 horse. The thought was that in the wild with predators watching, it might be a mechanism to "fool" the predators into thinking that horse was in charge. Which would mean that when the true leader led the horses in flight, the predator may be taken by surprise over what direction the horses take. 

I agree that our linear thinking about #1, #2, #3, etc horses in a herd is probably not correct. The horses instead have their place in a herd in relation to one another, which might vary.

It makes sense to me though that there could be a passive appearing lead horse that actually is the #1 horse to all the other horses, and the one they follow in an instant if they need to run from danger. 

It does make me wonder though...if the blustering, aggressive horse in the herd is not actually #1, then the methods some people use as "being the boss horse" might actually not be read in that way by horses. If we instead calmly and assertively just walk in and do what we want, that might be interpreted more as behavior the true lead mare would exhibit in the herd.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

All creatures do this. There are favored ones, there are bossy ones and there are less favored humble ones.

And when you introduce a new horse in herd, or any animal pack, the ones closest to bottom, will be the worst usually, as they have the most to lose.

They will be the ones fighting hardest as they do not want another boss.

They will segregate on color, type, height, or just because. Stallions may refuse to breed a mare whose color they do not like, and will refuse all mares that color too.

Just the way it is.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I also think every herd is different (obviously) but in dynamics. It depends what kind of personalities you mix. We had two very dominant mares, our "old" mare when we got her was 12, and we bought another mare at the same time. These mares fought like stallions. Now topliss(our old mare) almost never resorts to kicking and biting, she just lays ears back. When the other mare ignored these cues and gave her own, they fought worse than any stallions I've ever laid eyes on. Our pasture is 70 acres, it's huge. In the wild a stallion would back away and retreat when it gets too much. These mares were bleeding from wounds they inflicted on one another. My father had to mount his gelding and "step in" with a lariat and put one of the mares in the separate fence. Even then they fought over the fences. We eventually had to put her in the double fenced stallion corral, and only then did the fighting stop. It was interesting to watch, as we've penned several stallions together with mares on the side pens and never had fights break out like this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

the true alpha horse is secure in his/her position, once established, thus never has to do much more than flick an ear, swish her tail or even look at another horse, to enforce his/her position
In fact, when anew horse is introduced to that herd, it is usually those horses further down the pecking order, that act the most aggressive to that new horse, not wanting to be displaced anymore that what they are
My old reining mare, now 29, is still, and always has been the alpha horse in any herd I put her in. She ignored any new horses I introduced into her herd, secure in her position
Even now, I can supplement her with beet pulp, and not have to take her out of that field to do so, as all she has to do is give other horses that ;look', or cock a hind leg , while swishing her tail, for them to just watch her eat that extra food.
In the wild, it is the lead mare that leads the herd, while the stallion brings up the rear, protecting the herd's 'flank'
Far as predators, the individual they seek out, has nothing to do with herd position, but rather an individual in which they notice a weakness, be it a lameness, age or young. In other words, easy prey
It is also why a horse will often try to mask a soundness issue, as that weakness makes them a target

You don't often notice that true alpha horse, as he/she, seldom needs to display their dominance, as once established, it is an understood thing in that herd, that the alpha horse rarely has to demostrate


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

This thread has been fascinating to me because our 15 yr old Arab gelding seems to live outside a hierarchy. I say "seems" because I'm figuring things out as we go, but this is exactly how his previous owners described him - not high or low, but completely outside the hierarchy. He just kind of did his own thing according to them. In fact, they said it was because he's a gray, but I can't imagine colour would be a determining factor.

Since we've had him (granted, only about 2 months now), he's been in a small paddock with another gelding that beat him up all the time to the point where I didn't feel good leaving him in there, and now, spends his days in a large pasture (5 acres) with three other horses. For three weeks now, they have chased him away from hay (5 piles are put out) and he usually opts to enter one of the adjoining pastures which is open and paw the snow to eat grass. His weight is staying the same though, so I think he's an easy keeper and we make sure he has hay in the evening when he comes in. In this new herd, there are two geldings and a mare. The mare seemed to accept him initially (they were put in adjoining paddocks at first), but when they were all put in together, the two geldings chased him away. The three still stick together and he is always out on his own. Now, at no point does he feel cornered enough to fight back because he is an Arab and none of them come close to being able to keep up to him when he prances off, and given that there's lots of room, he can easily get away (it almost seems like a game, until heels and teeth get involved, but luckily for our guy, never actually reach the target). Mind you, they haven't been together that long so they may eventually accept him.

But how should this inform my approach to our horse? It almost seems like he prefers people to horses sometimes. Next summer, we expect to build our own barn and get another horse. Any tips as to what to look for so he doesn't get bullied yet again? What do you make of the "lone horse" who appears to have no real desire to enter the herd?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

He might wish to enter that herd, but it takes time for the rest to accept him.
I have had new horses live at the 'periphery of the herd, being sure to come up for water, where the area narrows, and they could get trapped, when the herd was busy grazing
Eventually, they are usually accepted.
I also once had two dominant mares fight it out quite seriously, but once there was a clear winner, that 'discussion was never made again, with the winner accepted as being so, by that other mare


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

It is always interesting to watch the interactions. Our largest group consists of four mares. The absolute leader is a thirty year old Trakener, #2 and #3 are TBs and #4 is a Welsh. The old mare keeps order with only a look and the most aggression is #3 towards the Welsh. The leader doesn't seem especially attached to the other three but her buddy is a young Dutch mare in the next pasture who at four already shows a dominant personality. We may eventually turn them all out together which might prove interesting.

The other situation is when I turned my mare out next to two geldings. one was quite taken with her and the other extremely aggressive toward her since his buddy was paying her too much attention


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