# Want opinions on this foundation QH



## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi all - I am looking for an all around foundation bred QH with solid conformation that will last a long time and carry me on the trails. I also want a horse that will bridle up that will do a little western dressage. 

What do you think of this horse? I usually like a tall horse (16h +) but he has so much bone i think the fact that he's only 15.1 won't bother me. He is 12 hours away so distance is a factor and I want to be sure. Asking price is $7,500 which i feel is a little steep...

Here is ad:
_2011, 15.1, AQHA Gray Roan gelding

Sire: Poco Tivio Klem (Jessie Tivio x Jessie Klem)

Dam: MCR Priss Dee Doc (Two Eyed Dominator x Tee J Mr Joe)

Festus is a nice, solid, big boned gelding. Old school foundation bloodlines. Great, go anywhere trail horse. Nice young gelding with a bright future. Unusual color. Great laid back disposition_.

and here is video - not the greatest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx-r3l7ZrqE


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Hard to tell with the saddle on and without pictures from the front and back at least. At a quick glance, pasterns look long & low in the front and are at different angles (could be the ground he's standing on). More on the "fluffy" side than the "beefy"


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

busysmurf said:


> Hard to tell with the saddle on and without pictures from the front and back at least. At a quick glance, pasterns look long & low in the front and are at different angles (could be the ground he's standing on). More on the "fluffy" side than the "beefy"


I asked for additional pics of him un-tacked. I think the angle of the pasterns is the ground, but we will see when I get additional pictures. 

Horse buying isn't fun. Unless there's an unlimited budget


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

He looks like a nice, stout animal and he should be really strong and probably pretty powerful and good minded based on that breeding. He seems to be the type that would just go - And he should be by all means. It's easy to teach one to bridle up. I'd be most interested in his brain.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> He looks like a nice, stout animal and he should be really strong and probably pretty powerful and good minded based on that breeding. He seems to be the type that would just go - And he should be by all means. It's easy to teach one to bridle up. I'd be most interested in his brain.


I felt the same way - but wasnt sure about his breeding. I definitely want a QH but the modern conformations and riding styles scare me. I don't want to be dealing with hock injections and arthritis at 5...which seems to just be a readily accepted part of the industry now. Except on the ranches. Where I've found some nice horses, but distance is always a factor with me being so far east.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that is one good, good horse!!!

buy him now before someone else does. he's built like a tank. I love the way he moves. appears to be very intiuned with his rider, carries himself well up hill and down, has a great walk out gait, canters nice, trots off with ears up and looking out .

that is exactly the kind of horse I would want. to a T.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yes, very nice horse.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Nice horse although I think he's a grey instead of a roan. While allbreed doesn't give the color on his dam or sire his dam has grey listed in her lines top and bottom so it wouldn't surprise me if she was. Makes me wonder why they are advertising him as roan though.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'd get some weight off him and keep it off if you don't want knee and ankle problems. Get a really good farrier to check those front feet.

Otherwise, he looks okay.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> Nice horse although I think he's a grey instead of a roan. While allbreed doesn't give the color on his dam or sire his dam has grey listed in her lines top and bottom so it wouldn't surprise me if she was. Makes me wonder why they are advertising him as roan though.


They're advertising him as "grey roan," which is only partly accurate. He is grey. Early stages of greying out, so it's doing funky things to his color. Really hope they don't have him priced so high because of his supposed "unusual" color. With his training and breeding, I'm really not seeing another reason for him to be priced the way he is, other than they're trying to make his color something it's not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

Looks nice to me! 

I've always been a fan of the foundation QH - they just always look so sturdy to me.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

he seems like a nice horse, but for that price, would expect a little more basic working horse type maneuvers 
What I notice, from that standing picture, is that he appears back at the knees, which can be a more serious defect then over at the knees, far a future soundness


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> They're advertising him as "grey roan," which is only partly accurate. He is grey. Early stages of greying out, so it's doing funky things to his color. Really hope they don't have him priced so high because of his supposed "unusual" color. With his training and breeding, I'm really not seeing another reason for him to be priced the way he is, other than they're trying to make his color something it's not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think his price is steep too. But I don't believe it is due to his color. This really isn't that kind of operation at this particular ranch  And I definitely do not think this horse is grey ...he appears to be a roan. Of what variety i don't know but I definitely think there is way too much red in his coat at almost 6 years old for him to be a "grey" horse. Any color experts want to weigh in? I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think he is a nice, well-started 'gray' horse. [He is not roan'] I would call him 'ranch broke' and a trail horse. He has had little training beyond that. He has no 'handle' on him at all and barely rides one handed. I would say he is a decent (but not great) Western Dressage' prospect. I think he is way over-priced for his training level.

My criticism of the horse himself would be that he is heavy on his forehand and from his breeding and way of going, I would bet he is not 'light' and 'feely' but tends to be a LOT more heavy and clunky. I would think he might be really difficult to get very collected. These horses are usually not great athletes. Western Dressage training will not do much for that. I would bet he is very pleasant and very good minded as long as you do not ask for a whole lot of athletic moves out of him.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

He is absolutely 100% gray. He will gray out in the next few years, but I promise you he will get lighter every year. He has a gray tail and does not have the solid colored head of a roan horse.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Cherie said:


> I think he is a nice, well-started 'gray' horse. [He is not roan'] I would call him 'ranch broke' and a trail horse. He has had little training beyond that. He has no 'handle' on him at all and barely rides one handed. I would say he is a decent (but not great) Western Dressage' prospect. I think he is way over-priced for his training level.
> 
> My criticism of the horse himself would be that he is heavy on his forehand and from his breeding and way of going, I would bet he is not 'light' and 'feely' but tends to be a LOT more heavy and clunky. I would think he might be really difficult to get very collected. These horses are usually not great athletes. Western Dressage training will not do much for that. I would bet he is very pleasant and very good minded as long as you do not ask for a whole lot of athletic moves out of him.


Thank you! So he is grey. Cherie can you point me in the right direction? I would like to find a handy, good minded horse that is nice on the trails and a candidate for western dressage. Most important to me is a conformation that is solid and a solid foundation in its early training. I have a very reasonable budget, and I am open to most parts of the country. Any suggestions on programs that sell horses like this?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We have always raised the kind of horse you are looking for. Our only problem is that I got too crippled up to train them and get a really good foundation on them any more. They are good minded solid, sound and easy to get along with only they are a lot lighter and more feely. 

We now only have horses are are prospects and lightly started (green broke) or not started at all. So, until I find a rider that can follow my directions to get more handle and more training on them, they are not as 'broke' as the horse pictured but will train a lot better for Western Dressage. 

Our horses (and the kind you need) have more modern reining and cutting lines but are bigger and better boned than most of the reiners and cutters that get to the show-ring. The reining and cutting breeders took the most athletic foundation lines and developed them into the extreme athletes that you see today. If you do not have some of that more modern (but still foundation) breeding, you are left with the thick skinned clunky ones that can go to the roping pen (if they are fast enough and can stop a 'little') and with recreational trail horses. [When is the last time you saw Two Eyed Jack or Jackie Bee in a cowhorse's or reiner's pedigree?] They are just not quick footed or athletic and have been left behind like the Weisecamp and other King and Poco horses.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think you could check some Ranch horse versatility type organizations, as those breeders raise horses along the lines that you are looking for.
Living in Alberta, I have this link to Ranch hOrse versatility, knowing friends active in that organization. There must be similar organizations near you

Home Page - Alberta Ranch Horse Versatility Association


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Starlite said:


> I felt the same way - but wasnt sure about his breeding. I definitely want a QH but the modern conformations and riding styles scare me. I don't want to be dealing with hock injections and arthritis at 5...which seems to just be a readily accepted part of the industry now. Except on the ranches. Where I've found some nice horses, but distance is always a factor with me being so far east.


Hock injections have nothing to do with body type. It has everything to do with work, individual horses, and owner/vet decisions. I have horses of both modern and foundation lines and very rarely do they need injecting, and even when they do it is important to understand that it is genuinely for the good of the animal and that they aren't anything to be afraid of. 

I would take a modern bred QH over a foundation for myself, but for ranch work and for what you are seeking they are going to be a pretty good suitable mount.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Certain lines and conformation types will stress the joints and the horse will develop Spurs and other arthritic changes. Especially in young horses that are very large very young, i.e. 17h at 2 etc. also horses that are too straight, upright in pasterns and other issues will affect joint health. This is per my vet, as I'm dealing with a 3 year old with arthritic changes who's 17h and a modern QH build. My vet says he rarely sees modern QH's with clean rads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You're comparing apples and oranges -- comparing two completely different things. Foundation breeding and being 'ranch raised' are two completely different aspects of horse breeding. One only refers to bloodlines. Modern Cutting, Reining, and Reined Cowhorses are ALL foundation breeding. With the exception of Doc Bar, every other bloodline seen in modern 'cow bred' horses are foundation lines. Almost all cutting, reining and Reined Cowhorses are eligible for all of the Foundation Quarter Horse Registries and shows. 

If you are looking at 17 hand horses, you are not looking at Foundation breeding or at horses suitable for what you want to do. You are looking at Hunt Seat horses and one of them is the last thing you want to do ranch or stock horses classes with. 

Several different things contribute to early leg problems and soundnes problems. They are interrelated in some ways and not in others. Breeding and bloodlines is only a small part of it. All of these things contribute to whether a horse stays sound for decades instead of just a few years.

1) The way a horse is raised after weaning is a very big and important part of it. Horses raised in stalls and small pens do not develop the good structure that horses running out on big ranches develop. The rougher the ground is and the bigger the pastures are, the better a horse's legs and feet can develop.

2) The way a horse is fed between weaning and maturity is also very important in how sound its structure will be. Horses that are 'pushed' and fed a lot of hard feed (grain and high protein supplements) after weaning are a lot more prone to have problems. If a horse is fully grown and developed by the time they are 2 to 2 1/2 years old, they have been fed a lot of high calorie and high protein feed. These horses are a LOT more prone to DOD problems like OCD. 

3) How hard was horse pushed as a 2 year old. Many horses that are headed to futurities are started as long yearlings. Many have several months of hard training (not light riding) before their 2nd birthday. You will see many futurity-bound horses that are already sliding and asked for spins and roll-backs when they are barely 2 by the calendar. Some horses can take this hard early training, but I would not buy one of them. That is why I would stay away from breeders that breed specifically for the Futurity market. 

It is true that some bloodlines develop OCD in greater numbers than others. It is also true that horses of that same breeding that are raised running out and growing until they are 4 or 5 rarely get developmental problems and stay sound for years and years. They can be ridden lightly at 2 and 3 and never have a problem. DOD comes mostly with over-feeding, pushing for early growth and development and early hard training.

When it comes to cutting and reining bloodlines, you need to look at whether the breeder is raising horses for the cutting and reining futurities or for ranch and other athletic uses. Without some of this modern breeding, you get heavy, thick skinned clunky old ranch horses. With too much of this breeding and inbred or closely linebred horses of this breeding, you get tiny little rats that can move quicker than you can blink but there is just not enough horse there.

When you look for cutting lines, look at how their horses are raised. Are they pushed for the futurities or are they allowed to grow out more slowly and naturally? Are they big enough and have enough bone to be sturdy? Do they have 4 crosses to Doc O'Lena or do they have 1 cross to him along with King Ranch or Colonel Freckles, Freckles Playboy and other athletic horse lines that are known for good bone and substance? There are precious few true athletes that do not have at least one or two crosses to a Three Bars horse in their lineage. A little Three Bars through Doc Bar or Sugar Bars never hurt any horse. 

A horse with a good dose of modern athletic breeding is going to have 100X more ability on its worst day then a Hancock, Weiscamp or Pitzer bred horse is going to have on its best day. This is why big ranches like the Waggoner Ranch, the 6666s, Craig Haythorn, etc have all added modern cutting breeding to their programs. They figured out that they needed the athletic ability to be competitive in even ranch horse competitions. 

You just have to keep in mind that a horse need good horse conformation with good bone and feet as well as a performance / cowhorse pedigree.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Cherie - what is your website? Husband may be looking for a 30-day colt this fall, and I would like to see what you have. Depending on where you are located of course..,

Sorry for going off topic op.


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

Knave - There's one listed in her signature


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The website is not current. A man is supposed to be rebuilding it for us, but he has not got it done yet. The software I used making the original site was on my old xp computer. When that computer died, I found that there were no updates for the software and it would not work on the newer computer. So, I cannot make changes to it. I cannot update any of the information on it.

The man that is working on it, was supposed to have all of the information transferred by the first of the year. Well, so much for that. He is transferring the data into a Wordpress site and then will give me the password and I can edit the information. I hope he gets it done pretty quickly.

We have several started 3 year olds, several unstarted 2 year olds and few 4 year olds and up that we are riding but are not very finished since I cannot ride anymore. They are by our stud, Call Him The Flash, a gray son of Real Gun (AQHA Super Horse), a son of Dun It With a Twist and a couple of others.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Cherie said:


> The website is not current. A man is supposed to be rebuilding it for us, but he has not got it done yet. The software I used making the original site was on my old xp computer. When that computer died, I found that there were no updates for the software and it would not work on the newer computer. So, I cannot make changes to it. I cannot update any of the information on it.
> 
> The man that is working on it, was supposed to have all of the information transferred by the first of the year. Well, so much for that. He is transferring the data into a Wordpress site and then will give me the password and I can edit the information. I hope he gets it done pretty quickly.
> 
> We have several started 3 year olds, several unstarted 2 year olds and few 4 year olds and up that we are riding but are not very finished since I cannot ride anymore. They are by our stud, Call Him The Flash, a gray son of Real Gun (AQHA Super Horse), a son of Dun It With a Twist and a couple of others.


Yes count me as one who is anxiously awaiting seeing your updated website. I'm definitely trying to stay away from soundness issues. My biggest desire is to own a horse that is sound and handy and has a good mind that is comfortable to ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

So, there are no signature lines on my phone... Just like I can't like texts or any of that. One of these days I'll get on my computer then and see if I can get on it. Hopefully you'll have it up and running then.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

OP, hope you find out more info before you go look at that horse. I found it slightly suspicious that the seller did not show the horse loping on the right lead, only the left. So I looked and found another video of the horse in which the rider also trots around quite a bit and hopes you won't notice the horse never goes on the right lead again. It seems quite likely the seller is trying to pull a fast one and the horse is lame or has back issues or training issues making the right lead difficult or impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dft0kwNQQVk


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

OP, I watched this last video. I think the horse is cute, but I think he could be hot and chargy. I could definitely be misreading him, but that was my gut. I don't know why they didn't lope him in the one direction, but I didn't read too much into that.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

I passed on the horse, asking way too much and yes only moved him in select directions at select gaits. Too many nice horses out there for that kind of money.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess, for your goals, I would be looking at slightly different bloodlines, versus just straight foundation breeding, and look at horses with some infusion of more modern lines
The horse you were looking at, will never be a great mover, being front end heavy
I see, though, that you have passed on him


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Starlite said:


> I'm sorry but you're wrong. Certain lines and conformation types will stress the joints and the horse will develop Spurs and other arthritic changes. Especially in young horses that are very large very young, i.e. 17h at 2 etc. also horses that are too straight, upright in pasterns and other issues will affect joint health. This is per my vet, as I'm dealing with a 3 year old with arthritic changes who's 17h and a modern QH build. My vet says he rarely sees modern QH's with clean rads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, conformation plays apart, far as joint injections, but there is also that fact that those modern performance horses are pushed, so you cnaèt compare them to ranch raised horses, who are not pushed to compete in things like the nRHA 3 year old futurity, where those horses are up in the bridle, running, sliding , spinning, as three year olds, to the level needed to win those type of big money futurities
It is also a fact that many trainers, getting a young horse ready for a two year old pleasure futurity, three year old reining or cutting futurities, routinely inject healthy hocks with HA, thinking that practice is harmless, they can then push that young horse to the max.
Not so. besides the risk of infection, it is a fact, as I asked a vet that presented a topic on ethics and drugs in show horses, point blank if injecting those healthy hocks with HA (naturally in joint fluid ), was totally benign.
Not so, as those hocks will develop issues way before they ever would, if they were not injected, but those futurity horses are not trained for longevity
of soundness, in many cases Money talks.
Thus, you are comparing apples and oranges, far as comparing a working ranch horse, where more time is taken to train him, where he is not pushed as a two and three year old, or even started as a yearling!
It is a what came first-the chicken or the egg, far as why those horses then NEED joint injections
Better put in the disclaimer, in case someone fails to read what I am saying.
I am all for injecting hocks or other joints, that are arthritic, to give that horse some more useful pain free years, but I am totally against prophylactic injection of healthy joints!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm not comparing. I'm hedging my bet by avoiding certain types that are more prone to certain ailments. Due to nature or nurture doesn't really matter to me, I just don't want to deal with it. Per my vet there's types to avoid and types to persue. This post was originally asking for opinions on a horse. 1 horse. Not comparing anything to anything. The latter type horse came up because I have one. He wasn't pushed, but he has arthritic changes in his hocks. At 3.5. He was raised in a pasture. Broke at almost three then put back out until I bought him. Since he's been with me (7 months) he's been ridden lightly - 20 minutes a day maybe 3-4 days a week. Trail rides too, light ones more for experience - learning to carry a bit and a rider confidently and quietly. My point is he isn't a Reiner or a WP horse or a HUS horse. But he was very large very fast which is what the vet is blaming. We aren't injecting the hocks, but we did start him on adequan. I was considering selling him to find a smaller horse without issues like these that may or may not affect our future but I've decided not to, after seeing what's out there id rather stay with a horse I already know.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Also - I don't know why hock injections are becoming the focal point here. My original comments where that I was considering hearty trail horse for pleasure. I want to stay within AQHA but want to avoid modern conformation and all the baggage that comes with it. Genetic, poor training, misuse of anti inflammatories and ALL of THAT. Who what when where and why doesn't really matter to me, TBH. I am already dealing with it to an extent in the horse I already own and consider myself lucky that it isn't worse. Also - my point for considering horses like the one posted here is that bottom line riding a 16+ hand horse on the trail isn't comfortable. I like the short wide ones for trail riding with confirmation that lends itself to years of good use.


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