# What is abusive?



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I have noticed that the definition of abuse varies greatly from person to person. Some think that using a twisted wire snaffle is abuse. Some think that it's a tool. 

Some think that striking a horse anywhere is abuse and some don't think it's abuse until there is blood.

Some people think it is abusive to stall a horse and others think a horse should never be left out over night.

Where is the line where abuse starts for you?


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

abuse to me is pure neglect or stupidity. Ie a horse in the freezing rain in 20 degree weather with no shelter and no blanket.

abuse is some one riding their horse into the ground past the horses durability, so to say.

abuse is some one who has a horse and NEVER spends time with it other than to ride it when they feel like it. in this case i call it abuse b.c the animal has no affection given to it and is just used to be a fun ride.

abuse is some one feeding their horse once a day or once a week for that matter.

abuse is no shelter and no blanket being outside 24.7 (not a horse being out 24.7 in general every one that has their horses out 24.7 (normally) has shelter and a blanket or one or the other )

abuse is some one beating their horse for refusing a jump b.c the rider didn't ride up to it properly

abuse is some one who ride's their horse in an ill-fitting saddle and knowing it dosent fit.

the list can go and go and go lol


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

When it becomes more than discipline and stems from anger. I'm sure that's still a very vague answer but here is an example. And please keep in mind that previously abused horses are a different case, and require more trust building exercises than anything else. In my scenarios, I'm talking about my personal horses or horses I come in contact with fairly consistently.

If a horse bites at me, I will smack it in the muzzle. It needs to know that biting is a definite NO. Then I will do what I can to figure out what made it bite me in the first place and fix the problem. Abuse, in that situation, would be hitting it several times, even after the horse has already retreated out of your space. It is also unfair in this case, as in all of them, to continue to be angry at the horse. It is necessary to move on and start on a clean slate immediately after the horse backs off.

When I taught my at the time 8 month old filly to crosstie, I tied her solidly to one tree, and wrapped a rope around the second, and I held the slack tight enough to be a crosstie but was able to release her if I needed to. Once she got over that bucking fit and decided to stand still, we started addressing crosstie manners. Meaning to stand still in the middle of the crossties. I put her in the barn crossties, stood in front of her with her lead rope clipped up with a dressage whip in my hand. When she swung her butt to the side, I'd give her a tug on the lead with a firm "Stand!" and tapped her butt with the whip, increasing the pressure until she moved. The process continued until I was able to stick an arm out and she'd move over. I spread all this over a month, and now she steps over with a wiggle of my fingers. This is not beating a horse while it is in the crossties for pooping. She was given the pressure she needed to move off, and I was putting the pressure on the offending object; her rear. I didn't hit her in the head or neck or shoulder, because it wasn't the head or neck or shoulder that invaded the no-occupancy space.

A couple weeks ago, I was out in the pasture, fooling around with the "herd." My friend's horse seemed to think it would be cute to rear up at me. I leaped up and smacked her horse in the side of her face, between her muzzle and eyes. She came down, looked at me all offended, and went about her business. I can still walk up to her, fuss with her face, do whatever I want with her, but now she knows not to rear up at me.

Discipline is just that, discipline. And it needs to be given in the right dosage, at the right time, in a way that the one being disciplined will understand. We can't give a horse a talking to, we must play the role of alpha in the herd, and the head of the herd will kick or bite a horse that is doing something wrong. How can you say it's wrong for us, as the owner, handler, and boss to do the same?


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i just want to add to ricci's post

i dont advise hitting a horse in the face EVER even on the nose. this is the #1 cause of head shyness. i always always aaaaaalways smack on the neck. never the face. sorry but thats IMO


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## paintsrule (Aug 20, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> abuse to me is pure neglect or stupidity. Ie a horse in the freezing rain in 20 degree weather with no shelter and no blanket.


I dont think that is neccesarely abuse. Horses were made to be outside and most of the time if not all of the time horses will not go in the shelter when it is cold and raniy but will huddle together as nature intended, with there backs to the wind. 

Abuse of horses to me is when people fail to learn. They dont understand about horses and either go to far with keeping there horse humanized or dont do enough to help the horse out while letting them be as natural as possible. To me abuse doesnt have to be "neglect" it can also be to much overzeolous protection.

Also the obvious lack of care both physical and mental. No food. Carelesness in riding and tending to the horse. All that stuff.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I have noticed that the definition of abuse varies greatly from person to person. Some think that using a twisted wire snaffle is abuse. Some think that it's a tool.
> 
> *I think abuse is ANYTHING that causes unnecessary pain or stress to the horse. I don't personally think a twisted wire bit is a tool, except on short and very rare circumstances. It is a substitute for good training, IMO. *
> 
> ...


I think the line, for me, is drawn over whether what you are doing is CONSTRUCTIVE or DESTRUCTIVE. I find other ways to get my point across than inflicting pain....always.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Horses were made to be outside and most of the time if not all of the time horses will not go in the shelter when it is cold and raniy but will huddle together as nature intended, with there backs to the wind.


you need to remember this isnt the wild... horses cannot survive long if they are let to fend on their own with no other horses. ive seen people with horses in their back yards , alone , in 4 ft of snow no blanket no shelter makes me wonder if they even have water. i think thats pure abuse and in the state of NY it IS abuse and you can have your horse taken away.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

This really is a post with so many different views. There are some things that I consider abuse in one person's hands but not in anothers. I would be comfortable using a twisted wire snaffle for a short time because I know how to use it properly (though other people may not think so), though I choose not to. However, many people have no business with anything harsher than a french link snaffle in their horse's mouth. I agree completely with Ricci,


> When it becomes more than discipline and stems from anger


. I personally believe that some horses do occasionally need a firm smack to regain their respect. I have smacked a horse on the nose or pinched their lip for nipping me and it never resulted in them being headshy. I consider these things acceptable because it is the same way in a horse herd. An offending horse will be warned with actions and sounds, then physically reprimanded with either teeth or hooves. I will warn with a firm "EH" or "NO" and make my posture more assertive before taking it to a smack. There are certain things that a horse should never be punished for; being afraid, or showing pain or uncertainty, or being "stubborn" about picking up a new thing that I am teaching them. After they know what is expected, it might be a different thing. It is a case by case basis for me. Dobe might do something and I smack him on the shoulder whereas Denny would do the same thing and I just back him out of my space for a few feet. It all depends on the horse, the circumstances, and the environment of the situation.

However, there are certain things that I consider abuse no matter the situation or circumstances.
-leaving bloody sides from spurs
-leaving bloody mouths from bits
-hitting a horse out of anger for any reason
-hitting a horse for no reason; ie, when they haven't done anything wrong
-leaving a horse with no food or water
-leaving a serious injury untreated when it is known about
-tying a horse with his head in the rafters (seen it happen)
And there are some other things that I can't think of right now but my ideas of what is and is not acceptable treatment of a horse are pretty black and white.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Abuse is doing damage that cannot be fixed or easily fixed, whether it be physically, mentally or emotionally.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> i just want to add to ricci's post
> 
> i dont advise hitting a horse in the face EVER even on the nose. this is the #1 cause of head shyness. i always always aaaaaalways smack on the neck. never the face. sorry but thats IMO


If a horse bits me he will get it as hard as I can right in the mouth. If I have a brush in my hand at the time he lashes out with me I will try to jab it into his mouth. The more I can hurt him the better but then it is done. I don't continue to yell at him, I just carry on.
To me that is not abuse. I watch horses play fight and kick each other really hard and do you think they think it is abuse??
The way alot of you guys handle your horse to me is abuse. You are creating monsters with your love taps on the neck.
Head shying is not a problem. Horses need to know the rules and they also learn to stay within guidelines and they will not be smacked.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> You are creating monsters with your love taps on the neck.


my horses have never bitten, kicked, reared or done any dissrespecful movment/ action since my 'love tap' so , sorry if you think its creating a monster . they sure listen to me i guess that makes them monsters.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I have noticed that the definition of abuse varies greatly from person to person. Some think that using a twisted wire snaffle is abuse. Some think that it's a tool.
> 
> Some think that striking a horse anywhere is abuse and some don't think it's abuse until there is blood.
> 
> ...



Great question Kevin,

Abuse is up for such broad interpretation.
Like many terms around horses I feel that it is overused.
A twisted wire snaffle is not abuse,but it can be.
A smack is not abuse,but it can be.

I would say that there are many training subjects that can be handled in a softer fashion than they are.
It really goes to the presentation of the subject and how the handler support the horse.

We all know that the auctions are filled with the failures of many and yet people find nice horses at these auctions at every sale.
Willing,working horses.
Why didn't they work for the last people?
Why were they dumped in many cases for pennies on the dollar?

Not always,but in many cases the people were not equipped to deal with very simple problems and the horse lost in the end.

This forum and many others like it hopefully help a little.
I personally doubt that there are many belly kicking,2x4 smacking,and mouth ripping trainers on this forum,but people do run out of ideas and get darn frustrated and maybe solve problems a little rougher than MIGHT be necessary.

I feel that neglect is one of the greatest abuses.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> We all know that the auctions are filled with the failures of many and yet people find nice horses at these auctions at every sale.
> Willing,working horses.
> Why didn't they work for the last people?
> Why were they dumped in many cases for pennies on the dollar?


 
=D lovvvve that quote. ive pulled 4 horses from the kill pen. and each and every one of them had BIG issues . and were ALL fixed with 4 months of love and correct training. its such a miracle what a little bit of love does.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think there are two types of abuse.


Neglegent abuse includes things like leaving the halter on a horse that's turned out or still growing. Letting a horse become so disrespectful that it can't be safely handled or ridden, improper feeding and care (too much or not enough), and poor hoof care. I also think that allowing horses that are crippled or blind or otherwise incapable of living a usefull life alive is negligent abuse. Horses that have had several colic surgeries are another good example. Sometimes "saving" the horse from slaughter is not the best thing.

Active abuse is easier to identify in some cases. Someone that inflicts pain on a horse without any expectation of a positive outcome is an abuser. People that embrace thier ignorance when it comes to training techniques are on the verge of becoming abusive. I rode with a lady that would allow her very well trained horse to stop whenever it wanted in the trail was not yet guilty of abuse but when the horse developes worse bad habits then she may be. People that buy a two year old horse for thier ten year old child so they can learn together is guilty of abusing the horse and the child. The well-meaning folks that "rescue" horses and have no idea of how to train them are also bordering on abuse. Nagging a horse constantly is worse than using more force and getting the response that you require.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> abuse is some one who has a horse and NEVER spends time with it other than to ride it when they feel like it. in this case i call it abuse b.c the animal has no affection given to it and is just used to be a fun ride.
> 
> abuse is some one feeding their horse once a day or once a week for that matter.


 
Abuse is not the same a neglect. They can be the same but neglect is usually lack of care and abuse too much negative attention. People who board sometimes cannot come out to see their horses alot. Maybe they are sick or chronicly ill. I think alot of owners would fall into you category of abuse in the winter. Alot of people I know usually feed, and also ride on occasion, but thats it because it is so cold, it can be dangerous. I was away at school and didnt take my horse the last year so I could take all my difficult accounting classes, that in no way makes me an abusive person. My horse had food, water, saw the vet and farrier while I was away.

Feeding once a day is not abuse. Its a little narrow minded to say that. My horses get grained, a small amount once a day they watered and hayed. In the summer they eat grass all the time and get grained and watered once a day.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I agree with all of that kevin!


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> Neglegent abuse includes things like leaving the halter on a horse that's turned out


Thats what a breakaway halter is for. Some people even keep halters/id tags on their horses so they can be caught if they are loose runing wild.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree with Kevin. 

I see abuse a couple ways, one is* willfull* neglect. I don't think it's fair that when someone that is new to the horse world or inexperienced does something on their own, or something they read in a book, or something that someone told them to do and are accused of being abusive. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. Sometimes people really think they are correctly feeding their animals, sometimes they don't see the hip bones and the ribs and realize their horse is underfed, sometimes they honostly don't know that a every horse should have their feet done. I remember when I first bought my horse, I was told that you didn't need to worry about their teeth until they got sloppy with their feed. He was a neglect and abuse case, had I not listened to that person and gotten his teeth fixed years earlier, he'd probably be able to chew hay today. Was I abusive? Nope, just ignorant, I was 15 and owned my first horse, and did not come from a horse savvy family. My advice was coming from other 15 year olds. Had someone told me I was abusing him, I'd have been devastated. Another issue with him was that he had been abused, and I don't mean he had a rough handling owner. He had teenagers that sat on their porch and shot him with a beebee gun just to watch him buck, he had people that would put him in the stall and feed him Monday and then not come back for three or four days. He had owners that watched a hose die of colic in their back field. He had owners that chased him and beat him with a 2x4 when he got into the corn. So... knowing I had a previously abused horse I went completely the other way, I don't think it had a label back then but it does now... natural horsemanship. I made so many mistakes with that horse by never discipling him that he's a mess. At 25 anyone should be able to ride him, but I'm the only one...

When it comes to physical abuse I think there is a line. I believe in a smack or a jerk. I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's fair though when a twelve year old posts a picture of their horse and they are accused of being abusive. heavy handedness is something that stems from a riders own fear. Oh well. My rant has gone to far. I'll stop now.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

every one one is diff. but i dont care how cold it is im still out back, wether its 100 degrees out or 10 below, caring for my horses and spending time with them.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

is kicking a horse in the under side of the belly abuse? like keeping you foot bent back so it even with your leg?

To me abuse is drawing blood with spurs, double wire twisted bit, chain bits like a bike chain(Bicycle Chain Draft/Mule Bit Weaver Leather (Equine - Horse Tack Supplies - Bits - Working)) 
beating a horse for no aparent reason.

NOT Abuse to me is smacking a horse when it acts up. smacking it when it bites a person, useing spurs and/or a whip. kneeing a horse in the belly is not abuse. its like a kick from another horse.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> is kicking a horse in the under side of the belly abuse? like keeping you foot bent back so it even with your leg?


I sort of think so. If you kick a horse under the ribs or behind them it is very painful. Im assuming you mean while riding? If you go out of your way to do this i think i would consider this abuse. You have alot of training/riding issues if you have to do this. I have had to encourage a mare very hard to keep/get her going on a ride yesterday but I wouldnt call a soft kick abuse. If I was going out of my way to kick her in a vulerable sensative area there is intent.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

like if a horse kicks you and you kick/ knee it in the under belly


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ I would think so. Thats one of the most sensative parts of the horse. Why would anyone kick there anyway, unless they really didnt care if the horse got bruised/ damaged insides.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I completely agree with Kevin here. I know some overpampered horses living what a person would see as a life of luxary, but the horses are miserable. The horses first priority is safety, and that doesn't mean shelter or a good stall to sleep in at night. It means security and solidity in its herd.

I know some people that put money into good saddles, but never learn how to ride for the horse and still end up ruining it. I personally think its hillarious when people think that carrots buy them good behavior under saddle. They are well meaning, but not offering the horse what it needs physically or mentally. Is that not another definition of abuse?

And yes, in some cases I have seen where there are worse things in life than death. I think that saving sometimes includes ending pain and sometimes that can only be done by ending life. To keep an animal alive when its in pain just for the sake of it not dieing in my opinion is abuse.

Also, I don't think hitting a horse in the face makes it headshy. It can, if done in the wrong way, but I personally have seen more horses become headshy from people avoiding fast movements around their face.

There are so many different situations in this world that we have created for them. In many ways, ignorance without seeking advice could be considered abuse.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

ok. i was taught that it was ok to do that.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> ^^ I would think so. Thats one of the most sensative parts of the horse. Why would anyone kick there anyway, unless they really didnt care if the horse got bruised/ damaged insides.


If a horse kicks me I will immediately move into the horse and knee him hard in the rib cage with a firm NO. I will knee him as hard as I can. That is how I handle a kick and they usually don't kick again.
There is no way that my kneeing in the ribs is anywhere near as hard as another horse landing a good kick.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^ not to hijack the topic, but I would have to agree with this, although I've never heard of this method or used it. No matter what anyone says, an animals first instincts are going to be to communicate with you as if you were an animal of the same species. In showing the same courtesy, it saves a lot of stress on everyones part, anger, etc. Horses don't come out of the womb knowing what the word "NO" means....they don't even know what a good kick in the chest means until their mother teaches them. By using their language, i.e. physical contact when neccesary, we're a lot better off than trying to yell and scream at them.

I think abuse and neglect often go hand and hand.....you wouldn't expect to see a horse who has weekly massages and is fed an individualized diet to also get beaten with a bull whip by the owner for no reason. However, their are circumstances where, despite the best intentions of the owner, ignorance has lead to one or both of these conditions. I've seen people who love their animals more than themselves and would rather waste a paycheck on hay than on food for their families, but that doesn't change the fact that the horse isn't getting enough to eat. as someone said, theres the kind of abuse of "too much love" i.e over pampering or not being able to let the animal go, and then there is the kind of abuse thats out of anger or resentment or just plain sick and twisted pleasure....like riding a horse into the ground, and then tying it up with its tack still on with no food or water (I've seen this, its just down the road from me at a for-hire place--they've actually had a little boy die because they put him on the back of a too hot horse with his dad, who had no experience riding) or chasing a horse around with a four wheeler. A lot of times, people also take their anger out on an animal because its convenient, and most people won't call the police or whatever if they see someone beating on a horse the same way someone would if a human was being beaten.


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

i think kicking a horse in the lower belly is deffinitly abuse.there was a girl at my barn that would kick horses in the bellies (from the ground, not while riding) and she would tell the other kids to do it too.
she got kicked out and banned from my barn for doing so. its a very sensitive part of a horses body and there are other ways to disapline a horse.
abuse to me is hurting a horse without any positive gain for the horse, or unnecessary punishing.

dont get me wrong, when my horse trys to bite me ill smack him in the mouth with my hand or a brush if im holding it. not hard enough to do any damage but enough to get the message across. biting is very dangerous and not tolerated.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Lets assume for a moment (benefit of the doubt) that all the horse forums on the Internet have nothing but well meaning,educated,and informed owners of horses.
Everyone that subscribes to Horse and Rider or Equus is cool and without guilt.

So where are all the beaten,abused,and neglected horses coming from?
Where do all the by the pound horse auctions find their horses to sell?
Where do all the CL free horses come from?

Oh,they must be the non-forum members...OK.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

heyycutter said:


> i think kicking a horse in the lower belly is deffinitly abuse.there was a girl at my barn that would kick horses in the bellies (from the ground, not while riding) and she would tell the other kids to do it too.
> she got kicked out and banned from my barn for doing so. its a very sensitive part of a horses body and there are other ways to disapline a horse.
> abuse to me is hurting a horse without any positive gain for the horse, or unnecessary punishing.
> 
> dont get me wrong, when my horse trys to bite me ill smack him in the mouth with my hand or a brush if im holding it. not hard enough to do any damage but enough to get the message across. biting is very dangerous and not tolerated.


Ever been cow kicked by a horse?? It hurts and can do real damage. I start alot of unbroke young stallions and when they cow kick me I immediately move in fast and knee them hard and fast in the rib cage with a firm NO. 
They don't usually kick again. I don't carry on, just quick and fast, just like when I got kicked, it is over and done with in a second.
Where is the abuse, it hurt me more then it did him.


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## JoJo1950 (Dec 14, 2009)

Darn Kevin, I was about to call it a night and you went and started this. 

The action is out of anger---it is abusive.
Neglect because of irresponsibility---it is abusive.
Pain is inflicted because one is too stupid to find another method—it is abusive.
Pain is given reflexively rather that constructively---it is abusive.
Lack of proper nourishment, for whatever reason----it is abusive.
Lack of proper shelter---it is abusive.
If the action is based on one’s personal comfort rather that the good of the horse—it is abusive.

Actions based on stupidity, impatience, ego, laziness (both physical and intellectual) or actions fostered by conceit are all basis for abusive actions.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I've only been kicked at a few times, only one of which made contact, and that horse dropped me so fast, there was no way to go back and discipline. All the other times, once the horse decided it was going to play the kicking game, I kept a dressage whip on hand. When it turned it's butt to me in the pasture, it got nailed in the rear with that whip so hard, none of those horses have dared show me their butts again.

I can't imagine kneeing a horse in the belly or gut, mostly because I've never been that close or in a position to quickly and efficiently place the pressure in that particular place. I don't see how being kneed one time would cause a lot of damage... some of us human folk may be strong by human standards, but by horse standards, we are quite the weaklings.

As to the "hitting a horse in the face makes it headshy" argument, try telling my horses that. They have both tried one time each to try and bite me when they were unhappy with whatever I was doing, and they each got one solid smack in the muzzle. They jerked their head away and have never, EVER, tried to bite me again, no matter what I did. Gracie [the little one] still gets a little lippy, but it stems more from a snuggle than viciousness, and a shove and a cold shoulder usually reminds her to keep her mouth to herself. Neither or my horses are headshy, not in the least. I can twirl all sorts of "scary" objects around by their faces, I can come up and give them a pat right between the eyes, I can do whatever want to any part of them. To make a horse headshy by smacking it in the face, you have to hit than more than once and at the wrong time. A horse knows when it's getting smacked for misbehaving. The same horse will also know when it's getting beat around the face unnecessarily. One smack for biting will almost always stop them from trying again, and I don't know a single horse who would instantly become headshy because of it. Abuse starts when it becomes to excessive, like hitting the horse several times for one misdeed, and at that point, you've crossed the line to acting in anger, not simply disciplinary action. The punishment should fit the crime. You need the right amount of pressure applied to the part of the body doing the act at the time that it's happening, when it makes sense to the horse.

Lecture over. =]


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## snoggle (Jun 13, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Lets assume for a moment (benefit of the doubt) that all the horse forums on the Internet have nothing but well meaning,educated,and informed owners of horses.
> Everyone that subscribes to Horse and Rider or Equus is cool and without guilt.
> 
> So where are all the beaten,abused,and neglected horses coming from?
> ...


To some extent I think you are right (though I know you were being sarcastic). I think people who seek out information about proper horse ownership are more likely to provide proper and non-abusive care. 

My husband and I have been horse owners less than a year. We were neither one raised with horses. Before we got our girls we spent a lot of time reading and learning about proper horse care. We spent a lot of time with our horse owning friends - watching and learning. A big part of why I am on this forum is that I want to learn how to provide a good home and proper training to my horses.

One of my neighbors, who is at times abusive and neglectful with his horses, made fun of me when he saw all of the books I had gotten on horses, particularly "Horses for Dummies". He doesn't think he needs to learn a thing about horses, their care, or their training, and that is part of why he is a lousy owner. 

Some neglect and abuse is a result of ignorance and some neglectful and abusive owners don't care enough to learn anything to become less ignorant. The ignorance can be both the cause and the effect of abuse/neglect.

So yeah, I have a feeling most of the owners on forums like this one aren't too bad to their horses since they care enough to be on forums like this one.

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

i for one am not bad to my horses. yeah they arent show ring ready but they are not mistreated in any way. yeah i have a run in shed and no indoor arena but they get the best i can afford. that to me doesnt mean calling the vet for stocking up like they were, or getting a cut on his leg. i call the vet and do the best i can. if you call that abuse or neglect so be it. i do the best i can for these horses and if that means eating mac and cheese and not steak and potatoes, i'll do it.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I see abuse a few ways-

-Neglegent- Complete ignorance or lack of care for the safety and well being of the animal that either actively harms or places the animal in harms way. Leaving a halter on in a field or pasture, leaving piles of junk that a horse could become entangled in or harmed on. Feeding moldy or diseased feed and/or hay with the knowledge that it is in that condition. Not feeding a horse enough to maintain a healthy weight, not being able to provide (or purposefully not providing) necessary and basic essentials like quality feed, hay, clean water, vet care, farrier work, dental care, excersize, and a safe enviornment. Denying a horse emergency care or any necessary medical care.

-Ignorant- Just plain not knowing how to care for a horse and not seeking help in a way that endangers the health, safety, or well being of the animal. Buying a young horse for an inexperienced rider so they can "grow up together". Allowing a child to be the sole care giver for a horse without supervision. Not knowing how much you can take on responsably and the horse having to suffer because of it.

-Active- Knowingly putting a horse in harms way or knowingly harming a horse. Can be out of anger or just to do it. Continuing disciplinary action past the point of discipline, continuing the action after point is made and horse begins to retreat. Harming for no reason. Harming for profit or vanity/pride. Using a cruel device on a horse in the wrong hands. Abusing a training aide so that is does not work its intended purpose, unless that purpose is pain, then using the device at all.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Just for the record I think kicking the under belly is abuse. there is a huge difference though with a kick in the sensitive belly and a knee to the hard bony ribs, which I think is not abuse. Kickin g can cause too much damage simply from the momentum and pendulum effect of the leg, where as with a knee you have to use your abs to bring it up and make contact and there fore cannot put too much force behind it.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

snoggle said:


> To some extent I think you are right (though I know you were being sarcastic). I think people who seek out information about proper horse ownership are more likely to provide proper and non-abusive care.
> 
> My husband and I have been horse owners less than a year. We were neither one raised with horses. Before we got our girls we spent a lot of time reading and learning about proper horse care. We spent a lot of time with our horse owning friends - watching and learning. A big part of why I am on this forum is that I want to learn how to provide a good home and proper training to my horses.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the comments snoggle,
I guess the point that I was trying to make with the post is that there is a good chance that many of us know in person someone that does not care well for their horses.
I see the aftermath of poor care on a regular basis.
The abuse comes in the form of very bad or no training,Bad nutritional care,poor living environment,failure of the owners to develop a plan of action,being out horsed and choosing to do nothing,lack of commitment on the part of the owners,breeding because they want a baby,and on and on.
Horse abuse is quite common and wide spread.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I agree with virtually all the comments relating to abuse being considered destructive - if the "discipline" you're dolling out isn't teaching the horse anything but utter panic and fear, it's time to re-evaluate. If you proceed knowing it's not helping, you're becoming abusive.

Every single horse is different. A perfect case in point is the nippiness of my 2 year old and Shay-las 2 year old. Eve is very sensitive. She also has close to zero manners when it comes to feeding treats (or any hand feeding). In this case, slapping Eve on the nose was tried and all that resulted was her getting shy about her face. This form of discipline immediately stopped because it was counter productive and she wasn't learning to stop nipping, she was learning to fear hands. At this point, Shay-la is simply ceasing with the hand feeding and using an elbow in her neck if she gets into her space which is working.

Jynx has close to zero sensitivity. She went through a stage of grabbing at my jacket and yanking which resulted in getting slapped hard across the nose. I have also resorted to bumping her with my finger or elbow in the nose when she gets pushy or grabby. The result is a horse that has zero fear of my hands, and has since stopped grabbing at my jacket, and also stands quietly while I hold a carrot behind my back, touching me with her muzzle but not nipping.

In these two case scenerios, I would have considered it bordering on abuse if Shay-la continued slapping Eve on the nose, knowing it was counter productive and nothing was being learned but fear. I do not consider slapping Jynx on the nose abuse because she learned from it and was not affected negatively by it.

I don't use the term abuse loosely - just because I don't agree with things, doesn't make it abuse. To me, abuse is blatant - a violently shaking and bloody animal after a "schooling" session, a visibly thin horse without adequete shelter or food, etc. It bothers me when people scream abuse just because it goes against what THEY believe in. So many people will see someone in a ring smacking a horse with a crop and immediately assume it's abuse without having ANY knowledge of why it's occuring. We should definately be vigilant about identifying abuse, but some people take it to far in my opinion.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I believe there are two ways in which harm can be done to horses, neglect and abuse.

Examples of neglect:
underfeeding a horse
overfeeding a horse
leaving a horse in a box stall all day without any turn out or exercise
not picking the hooves after a ride
never washing saddle pads and boots
letting the hooves grow too long

Examples of abuse:
soring
bleeding
rollkur
tearing a horse's mouth with a bit
leaving marks on the horse's side from spurs
making a horse work past the point of exhaustion

Both can be equally damaging to the horse depending on the circumstances. The difference is the intent of the person. Neglect happens when someone doesn't have the means (time, money, or motivation) or knowledge to care for a horse. Abuse is when a person is doing something intentionally to cause discomfort to a horse, or is at the least pursuing the results of the discomfort.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I can't imagine kneeing a horse in the belly or gut, mostly because I've never been that close or in a position to quickly and efficiently place the pressure in that particular place. I don't see how being kneed one time would cause a lot of damage... some of us human folk may be strong by human standards, but by horse standards, we are quite the weaklings.
> 
> . =]


I've been cow kicked a number of times. While I am not afraid of it it still hurts. No anger is involved. I have a plan to deal with kickers and I use it as soon as it happens and it works.
I am also a part time farrier and I get some bad horses and I just have to deal with them. A lady will tell me her horse is a kicker and the last farrier at her last place told her to warn the next guy about his habit of kicking. I usually fix the horse in a few sessions.


To me the worst abuse I see is the ones out 24/7 in all sorts of weather, cold , rain, sleet, mud. They never get a chance to dry out. They might have shelters but in high winds they can not escape. There feet are always wet, their coats are wet and they spend a miserable night.
I couldn't stand my horse out 24/7.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

I would have to tell someone to get the heck out of my barn if they EVER kick my horse in the belly area, even ribs or face. And you are kind of opening yourself up to being kicked again if you knee them. Spin your horse around or smack them hard with a lead. You dont need to use an eye for an eye approach. Most horses understand when someone is angry with them. Some horses will do anything to get attention, like pawing. Its rewarded by the owner coming back to yell at the horse. Even if its negative, he's still getting attention, which is why its such a hard habit to breal

Alpha mares in the herd have no intention of hurting a horse, it makes the herd weaker. They usually discipline a young horse my scaring them, not acutally hurting them. All my mare has to do is put her ears back and look at my other horse and hes outta there. Thats what you should strive for with your horse. The worst thing a mare does to other horses is put her ears back and shun a horse from the herd to punish it for a few minutes. Being kicked from the herd is a horses worst nightmare.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

What is abusive? I think it's very hard to give the definite answer to that. 

If horses are skinny, wormy, hoofs are neglected - those are abuse, NO exceptions. On other hand if the horse is fat as pig - that could be considered as abuse as well some sort. Not intentional though: most times it comes from the person being uneducated and in fact thinking it's the best for the horse, and often the proper advise can help with that one. 

I'm very much against kicking the horse. Yes, they are stronger, and do it to themself, but I just find it unacceptable. There are other ways to teach the horse. I have no problem with smack on shoulder (or even on nose if absolutely needed and light). 

Spurs, bits, whips are all as abusive as person using them. Unfortunately many beginners, people thinking they are trainers, and just plain pos using them in very abusive way leaving marks both external and internal. Should be they forbidden to sell then? Of course not!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I agree with Kevin.
> 
> I see abuse a couple ways, one is* willfull* neglect. I don't think it's fair that when someone that is new to the horse world or inexperienced does something on their own, or something they read in a book, or something that someone told them to do and are accused of being abusive. .


It may be more easily excused by us but abuse feels the same to the horse rather the person knows better or not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> I would have to tell someone to get the heck out of my barn if they EVER kick my horse in the belly area, even ribs or face. And you are kind of opening yourself up to being kicked again if you knee them. Spin your horse around or smack them hard with a lead. You dont need to use an eye for an eye approach. Most horses understand when someone is angry with them. Some horses will do anything to get attention, like pawing. Its rewarded by the owner coming back to yell at the horse. Even if its negative, he's still getting attention, which is why its such a hard habit to breal
> 
> Alpha mares in the herd have no intention of hurting a horse, it makes the herd weaker. They usually discipline a young horse my scaring them, not acutally hurting them. All my mare has to do is put her ears back and look at my other horse and hes outta there. Thats what you should strive for with your horse. The worst thing a mare does to other horses is put her ears back and shun a horse from the herd to punish it for a few minutes. Being kicked from the herd is a horses worst nightmare.


1. Do you think the average person actually hurts a horse if they kick it or knee it in the belly? Compared to the impact of a hoof the amount of force is trivial.
2. Geez, even if I watch the ever revered Cloud videos on TV I see horses being kicked and bit. Kicking and biting are how horses do discipline.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> . Some horses will do anything to get attention, like pawing. Its rewarded by the owner coming back to yell at the horse. Even if its negative, he's still getting attention, which is why its such a hard habit to breal
> 
> .


Funny but I have never had a problem with horse's pawing. They try it a time or two and then give it up as a bad idea.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> 1. Do you think the average person actually hurts a horse if they kick it or knee it in the belly? Compared to the impact of a hoof the amount of force is trivial.
> 2. Geez, even if I watch the ever revered Cloud videos on TV I see horses being kicked and bit. Kicking and biting are how horses do discipline.



I don't really think whether I hurt the horse or not is really the point,
It LOWERS me as a person to resort to such a low form of communication to get a point across.(just like it does if I use force with other people).

I use my brain to think so I don't have to use my brawn.
It does not matter to me how a horse disciplines a horse.
It matters about the interaction that I create.

I think if anyone were to look closer into the topic they would find how "Abuse" carries over into their personal life also.

The people that give it have gotten it.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> 1. Do you think the average person actually hurts a horse if they kick it or knee it in the belly? Compared to the impact of a hoof the amount of force is trivial.


No, but person can outsmart the horse and use another approach then just kicking it in belly.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

^^^Exactly!! It is much better to address the problem before you need to punish the horse. Instead of kicking the horse in the belly after he kicks you, why not check the horse out and find out if it's a kicker and solve the problem in a pro-active way. The only reason a horse kicks is because it thinks it has to to save it's life.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> Funny but I have never had a problem with horse's pawing. They try it a time or two and then give it up as a bad idea.


Well most people who have pawers leave their horse unattended for a while, and they just get bored. Its like of like a natural thing for them to do. Some horses do it when confused or frustrated as well. But I see it alot more as people who leave their horse tied up on cross ties so they cant move, and leave them there.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Like insanity. Asking for something the same way and expecting a different response.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

If a horse kicks or tries to kick me, if I'm holding them, I spin them around to sort of startle them. I've only had it happen once with a nasty mare I used to ride. My baby does it once in a while to test boundries, I push him away from me, and yell at him.

I'd rather not envoke my horse to kick me again. Most (really always) of the time a human will loose a battle of stength, but you certainly can win by outsmarting him. People usually know right away if a horse has bad behavior, its your job as an owner to calm them down, make them feel like you arent going to hurt/ threaten them. Sometimes horses feed of anger/ fear, so if you let them know they've upset or injured you they've already won.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Darn. I guess I abuse my horse  

He is out 24/7 There is a shed, but he never uses it. He has a blanket on and gets chucked a lunch when its exceptionally cold out. 

Im in college so I can't ride every day like I did in high school or do during the summer. I ride when I can but to some this is abuse. 

My horses are dewormed, get their feet done, and are fat and happy. So I don't think of my "lack of affection" or having them out 24/7 is abusive (even in Montana winters)


I think abuse neglect (Not giving your horse everything he needs to be healthy in all aspects) or more the " smack the tar out of him because he doesn't understand/isn't ready/etc. It usually comes from either ignorance or anger. I have nothing against hitting a horse. I have popped them in the mouth if they've tried to bite me. I will smack them pretty much anywhere other than their heads (mouth excluded) and usually with my hand -- Does more damage to me than to them half the time. The point is not to inflict pain, it's to make them know you don't like whatever you're doing. More often than not a strong "EHHHH" will do the trick. 

I think abuse happens when you do the same thing, but it is excessive. Tapping a horse with a crop to encourage him to go to the fence is fine and not abusive. Slapping him with it repeatedly because he refused is not. Giving a smack with the end of the leadrope because your horse is in your space is fine. If you keep going, your horse forgets all about what he did wrong then and is trying to figure out what he is doing wrong NOW to cause you not to stop.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

My comment about kicking a horse back was only addressing Sillybunny's point about other horses not wanting to injure each other..... 

I was not saying it was right or wrong, just making a point.

Shrug.


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

Abuse and Neglect both are the result of ignorance period. Either you are informed, experienced and capable of interacting with a horse or you are not.

It is impossible to say when and how much pressure is required to gain a positive result unless you are there.

The biggest problem that I see in the current interaction between humans and horses is that most humans gain a little knowledge and all of a sudden they are experts who will not listen to other points of view and will defend their wrongness to the death--usually of their horses.

I can say that I always use as much pressure as required for a positive outcome. However, I work hard to gain a mutual respect and discernable communication with the horse before I ask them to begin the learning process.

Dangerous habits--kicking, charging, bucking, rearing, biting etc.--have to be overcome before any training can begin. How to accomplish that depends on the horse and removing any fear that is involved.

Great discussion--I like discussions--I despise arguments with both humans and horses.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> ^^^Exactly!! It is much better to address the problem before you need to punish the horse. Instead of kicking the horse in the belly after he kicks you, why not check the horse out and find out if it's a kicker and solve the problem in a pro-active way. The only reason a horse kicks is because it thinks it has to to save it's life.


Kevin I start alot of young unbroke horses. I prefer them barely handled and most are barely halter broke. I will take a horse like that and tie him up solid right off the bat and start treating him like the horse I want him to end up being.
I will brush him and when I get near the back end my last guy up and cow kicked me in the hip. I DON'T KICK OUT WITH MY FOOT, I USE MY KNEE hard and fast in the rib cage, walking into the horse and lift the knee quick and hard while yelling NO. Let him hit the end of the tie if he wants but I end it there and go back to brushing. The strange part is it seems to get through to them and they don't repeat the kick?? Some of these guys have have not handled for 1 day .
I do not step back and kick with a leg or toe of a boot. I step in close and lift the knee. I am not the least bit bothered if I hurt the horse, he will quit kicking right then and there.

As for anticipation?? I don't care. He will act the horse I want him to end up being right from day one, He learns the boundaries and must stay withing them. The same with biting, if I am brushing and he snakes his head around to grab me I will not jump back but meet his mouth with the corner of a brush, hard and fast with the same NO. They usually learn quickly not to bite.

Call me abusive, call me whatever you want but in a week I will show you a well behaved horse, one that is riding out alone on the road and trails. A leader. A well mannered barn horse.
I don't hit a horse with a whip, I don't use stud chains very often, I don't hit them with a lead shank but they will behave.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> It may be more easily excused by us but abuse feels the same to the horse rather the person knows better or not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


I do understand that but in a case like that, rather then throw stones as so many people so quickly do, we need to teach.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

> I will take a horse like that and tie him up solid right off the bat and start treating him like the horse I want him to end up being.


Thats why you get kicked and I dont. You cant bombard an unhandled horse with so much at once. You're just asking for trouble, now or later down the road. Too much stimulation can turn a horse off to people all together.


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## Smarby (Oct 27, 2007)

barnprincess said:


> abuse to me is pure neglect or stupidity. Ie a horse in the freezing rain in 20 degree weather with no shelter and no blanket.
> 
> abuse is some one riding their horse into the ground past the horses durability, so to say.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I'm abusive then. Dougal lives out all year round with no blanket. And he doesn't get fed. Because he doesn't need it. Applying those bolded ones to every horse is ridiculous. If it was a horse that needed feed, needed stabling, needed a rug and yet its needs were ignored - yes, thats abuse.neglect. But you can't apply those to every horse you know.

Abuse and neglect to me is harming the horses mental and physical well being intentionally or perhaps even unintentionally. This could be through beating it severly and unneccassarily, starving it of certain essential needs [food, water, shelter] and other more subtle ways of abuse. Whether you think it is right or not, it is still abuse/neglect. 

Everyones opinions differs on this matter at the end of the day. But it is preventable and should be stopped, even if in the most minor and unintentional forms.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Kevin I start alot of young unbroke horses. I prefer them barely handled and most are barely halter broke. I will take a horse like that and tie him up solid right off the bat and start treating him like the horse I want him to end up being.
> I will brush him and when I get near the back end my last guy up and cow kicked me in the hip. I DON'T KICK OUT WITH MY FOOT, I USE MY KNEE hard and fast in the rib cage, walking into the horse and lift the knee quick and hard while yelling NO. Let him hit the end of the tie if he wants but I end it there and go back to brushing. The strange part is it seems to get through to them and they don't repeat the kick?? Some of these guys have have not handled for 1 day .
> I do not step back and kick with a leg or toe of a boot. I step in close and lift the knee. I am not the least bit bothered if I hurt the horse, he will quit kicking right then and there.
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with your technique except that there is a chance for serious injury any time a horse kicks you. I think you have a good way of handling the situation but I wouldn't want to get kicked before solving the problem.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Thats why you get kicked and I dont. You cant bombard an unhandled horse with so much at once. You're just asking for trouble, now or later down the road. Too much stimulation can turn a horse off to people all together.


ive gotten kick for no reason. if i were training a horse thats how i would traet him. not walking on eggshells around him. even with jasper i treat him the way i want him to act. if he kicks me i kick him back. if he bites me i'll smack him in the nose. i mean if he bites or kick outta meanness not like nibbling. i wont except that. i wont tolorate kicking or nipping. i respect the way riosdad treats his horses


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## aynelson (Jun 13, 2009)

Wow! You can see in these posts this is not a black and white issue. What is abuse to one person is discipline to another. Maybe the action has to do with intent - is this coming from a place of hate or love. Hopefully all of our training comes from love. 

What is the horse perceiving? Are they frightened by you or in pain because of you? This could add to the abuse issue. Also, are you losing control of yourself or your temper during the discipline? 

Remember: Respect can never be achieved through force. This has to be built. You can't trust someone who scares you, frustrates you, or neglects you.

The other day I came across this idea that there is no black and white in the world - only shades of gray. The only black and white you should apply is with yourself when deciding are you going to love or to hate. I hope this decision is obvious.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

aynelson said:


> Wow! You can see in these posts this is not a black and white issue. What is abuse to one person is discipline to another. Maybe the action has to do with intent - is this coming from a place of hate or love. Hopefully all of our training comes from love.
> 
> What is the horse perceiving? Are they frightened by you or in pain because of you? This could add to the abuse issue. Also, are you losing control of yourself or your temper during the discipline?
> 
> ...





Unfortunately aynelson it is not obvious and humans have so much pain inside that they want to project.
We really are a self destructive species and have such a hard time expressing ourselves.
We have such a need to dominate and control everything in or path.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Good question. It IS a human thing: horses starve (bad winter) and are starved (abuse.)

RiosDad: Your way of training is quick, simple, and would be very, very difficult for most of us gals (and guys too). You need to be quick, have the right timing, consistent, and be utterly unafraid. I believe you also have an innate "horse sense" you probably hardly recognize in yourself. 
From what I've learned about you, I don't think you're abusive; but I think that someone who wanted to _use your methods, without your skills,_ very well could be.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Beling said:


> RiosDad: Your way of training is quick, simple, and would be very, very difficult for most of us gals (and guys too). You need to be quick, have the right timing, consistent, and be utterly unafraid. I believe you also have an innate "horse sense" you probably hardly recognize in yourself.
> From what I've learned about you, I don't think you're abusive; but I think that someone who wanted to _use your methods, without your skills,_ very well could be.


Thank you Beling. That is very kind of you. Yes I have absolutely no fear and know every move without thinking about it. It just comes naturally. I have been a trainer for over 50 years and know how to win in a ring.
Besides the winning which I no long have an interest in my life is horses. A day is not a good day unless I spend part of it with my guys.
My wife will even give me a few hours to spend with them on Christmas day because she knows how much it means to me. I in no way consider myself abusive.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> Thats why you get kicked and I dont. You cant bombard an unhandled horse with so much at once. You're just asking for trouble, now or later down the road. Too much stimulation can turn a horse off to people all together.


I don't find it that way. I bombard the horse with everything right of the bat. Sometime when a horse is unloaded from the trailer the saddle goes on even before the horse is taken into the barn. I use the prevous owner to hold the horse while I climp aboard.
I always tie the first day regarless of what the horse knows. I do the feet the next day, could be shoing if it is winter or trimming if it is summer but one way or another the horse has his feet done. Might even have to tie his head to a post and have my wife play with his gums but the shoes get nailed on.
I break them to ride within 2 or 3 days and head out in the open fields and bush trails right away. They will learn by doing. I have no fear of being bucked off or run away with. NONE.
I don't beleive in pussy footing around anything. I want the horse to learn something and I just do it by doing.

My horses reputations are solid. Fearless, impeccible manners and well trained.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

My definition of abuse is any kind of training that involves physical or mental bullying or brutality, or using any kind of technique or equipment that causes the horse pain or discomfort. Anything that frightens the horse, makes them feel insecure, or forces them to hold their bodies or move in a way that causes physical or mental distress is, in my view, cruel. I don't believe that striking a horse is abusive, as long as it's never in the face or legs, and that it's timed right and never overboard. It's the same as the lead mare kicking or nipping a belligerent yearling; enough to be unpleasant, but not enough to do any harm. I also believe that horses have the right to be horses, and taking that away is definitely cruel (keeping them stalled 24/7, for example). 

Horsemanship is about education, discipline, and working with your horse as your partner. Training should focus on the horse's way of thinking (not the human's), and should teach the horse _without force_ to work willingly with its handler. It should be educational and fun for both horse and rider, as well as observers. All training, no matter what discipline or method, should have a progression of development that works at the horse's pace. I believe that pushing a horse do something that he's not physically and mentally ready for could be considered abusive. Most importantly, the horse's welfare should be the top priority and be given the utmost consideration. If not, I would consider it abuse.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

This is an interesting thread, I just thought this was a good spot to throw in a reminder of the Conscientious Etiquette Policy. We've stayed on track thus far, let's keep it going!


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> My horses reputations are solid. Fearless, impeccible manners and well trained.


do you have a website? id like to check your horses out. you can pm me if ya want.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Jessabel said:


> My definition of abuse is any kind of training that involves physical or mental bullying or brutality, or *using any kind of technique or equipment that causes the horse pain or discomfort*. *Anything that frightens the horse, makes them feel insecure,* or forces them to hold their bodies or move in a way that causes physical or mental distress is, in my view, cruel.


 
Just about any method you use to train a horse uses the application and release of discomfort or pain to get the desired response and just about everything you do with a young horse will frighten them and cause them to feel insecure. I think it is far more abusive to allow them to continue to feel scared or insecure rather than teach them there is nothing to fear even if it requires some pain or discomfort temporarily. *What lessons have we as people and horseman learned that did not reqiure us to be scared or uncomfortable?*


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I don't find it that way. I bombard the horse with everything right of the bat. Sometime when a horse is unloaded from the trailer the saddle goes on even before the horse is taken into the barn. I use the prevous owner to hold the horse while I climp aboard.
> I always tie the first day regarless of what the horse knows. I do the feet the next day, could be shoing if it is winter or trimming if it is summer but one way or another the horse has his feet done. Might even have to tie his head to a post and have my wife play with his gums but the shoes get nailed on.
> I break them to ride within 2 or 3 days and head out in the open fields and bush trails right away. They will learn by doing. I have no fear of being bucked off or run away with. NONE.
> I don't beleive in pussy footing around anything. I want the horse to learn something and I just do it by doing.
> ...


I absolutely love your way of thinking and now have so much respect for you.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Just about any method you use to train a horse uses the application and release of discomfort or pain to get the desired response and just about everything you do with a young horse will frighten them and cause them to feel insecure. I think it is far more abusive to allow them to continue to feel scared or insecure rather than teach them there is nothing to fear even if it requires some pain or discomfort temporarily. *What lessons have we as people and horseman learned that did not reqiure us to be scared or uncomfortable?*


Amen. 
Horses learn effectively through the system of pressure-release. Negative reactions from a horse results in pressure from the rider. As soon as a positive response is a achieved, then they get a 'release' of pressure. 

I train my horses using this system. Horse bucks, horse gets gobbed briefly then asked again. 9 times out of 10 the horse will not, or will very rarely, use this behaviour again as an evasion. To me, it is far kinder to give a horse a moment of discomfort, than a lifetime of confusion.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

snoggle said:


> Some neglect and abuse is a result of ignorance and some neglectful and abusive owners don't care enough to learn anything to become less ignorant. The ignorance can be both the cause and the effect of abuse/neglect.


I agree. Unless a person is illiterate not knowing any better is not an excuse... Pick up a darn book.


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## JoJo1950 (Dec 14, 2009)

I’m very impressed with these posts. No name calling, no retaliatory, inflammatory retorts. Just discussion and ideas. RiosDad, it seems you became the lighting rod for your technique. Yet it appears to have resulted in safe horses, both for themselves and riders. After reading your posts I would guess that you know exactly how much power to put in that kick. Thanks for sharing and expanding my knowledge.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

RiosDad definately reminds me of my grandpa. I believe they were cute from about the same mold. We were ironically having a discussion at my aunt's last night at a Christmas get together that regardless of how wrong you may have thought my grandpa's methods were, no matter how much you disagreed with him, not a single person could ever dispute that his farm turned out the best mannered and most docile, affectinate and ethically sound Arabians for miles around.

His methods are almost exactly up RiosDad's alley - he spent every minute with those animals, singing to them when he cleaned stalls, giving them praise when they did good, treating them with respect. But he was not afraid to lay the rod down and lay it down HARD when one stepped out of line. Once is typically all it ever took for a horse on his property to learn not to do something.

Do I necessarily agree with his methods all the time? Probably not. But the fact that my eyes never laid sight on a single horse in his care that could even remotely be called "afraid" speaks for itself. The entire farm shook when he hollered because those ******s stampeded as fast as they could from the back 40 when they heard his voice. Every horse had a personality, every horse was affectionate as all get out, every horse was an absolute joy to work with.

I definately believe a forceful method can be used with extremely good results as long as you know EXACTLY what you are doing. The force has to be in direct corralation to the action, and you need to know exactly where that line between discipline and "to much" is. 

Then again, I am also firmly of the opinion that this world wouldn't be such a crappy place if parents would just beat their **** children once in awhile :lol: I may not be a horse, but my parents raised me without being afraid to tan my backside and there has never been any resentment to them. Fear is healthy - it really annoys me how people think it's Satan itself, when fear is what rules us. There has GOT to be a fear of a consequence, or what exactly is convincing the animal OR child to obey? It's the same principal. That fear doesn't always have to be physical, but it must exist to a certain degree or else leadership simply cannot be properly established, in my opinion.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> RiosDad definately reminds me of my grandpa. .


I take that as a compliment MacabreMikolaj. Thank you and merry Christmas


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha, definately a compliment. Though my grandpa is from the same mold of thinking everyone is an idiot and doesn't know how to handle a horse :lol: You sure you're not him in disguise with a renewed respect for the internet?

Merry Christmas to you to! We'll be spending it with the horses as well - ain't Christmas without ponies!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I don't find it that way. I bombard the horse with everything right of the bat. Sometime when a horse is unloaded from the trailer the saddle goes on even before the horse is taken into the barn. I use the prevous owner to hold the horse while I climp aboard.
> I always tie the first day regarless of what the horse knows. I do the feet the next day, could be shoing if it is winter or trimming if it is summer but one way or another the horse has his feet done. Might even have to tie his head to a post and have my wife play with his gums but the shoes get nailed on.
> I break them to ride within 2 or 3 days and head out in the open fields and bush trails right away. They will learn by doing. I have no fear of being bucked off or run away with. NONE.
> I don't beleive in pussy footing around anything. I want the horse to learn something and I just do it by doing.
> ...


RD, it's a very impressive approach. 

And it's not(!) a stone in your garden, but what about the crazy horses and possibility of being hurt (pretty bad sometime) when bucked off or if the horse falls while taking off? How do you approach those? That's what always bothers me the most - that human are very fragile (unfortunately).


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

paintsrule said:


> I dont think that is neccesarely abuse. Horses were made to be outside and most of the time if not all of the time horses will not go in the shelter when it is cold and raniy but will huddle together as nature intended, with there backs to the wind.


I believe this to an extent.. Even though horses used to be wild, I think some are a little more domesticated than others and can't survive outside all the time.. What I mean is, is my friend has a thoroughbred farm and her horses have thinner hair then say a quarter horse, plus they're slender. Her horses shiver when it gets too cold and show signs of distress. Another friend of mine has Arabians and they shiver in autumn. But, my trainer's quarter horses and ponies are perfectly happy to be out in the freezing rain or snow, even without blankets. They're fuzzy enough and bulky enough. Another friend of mine also has a quarter horse, who is very stocky and bulky, but she has VERY fine hair. It's so thin, that in the fall, her winter coat is the same density of an average horse's summer coat. 

My mare looks like she could physically stand being outside in cold weather. She gets really fuzzy and she isnt incredibly slender. BUT She'll stand by the gait sivering dramatically until someone brings her in.

So for this case, I think it depends on the horse, whether or not its abuse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> RD, it's a very impressive approach.
> 
> And it's not(!) a stone in your garden, but what about the crazy horses and possibility of being hurt (pretty bad sometime) when bucked off or if the horse falls while taking off? How do you approach those? That's what always bothers me the most - that human are very fragile (unfortunately).


I am not that fragile and have been bucked off many a time, had horses fall on me, been kicked alot but I always seem to stand right back up and get back on.
I do not buy idiots. I ride idiots for others but most of those problems are made by the people themselves.
I pick my new prospects carefully. I hobble , well a form of hobble right away with the owners permission to see how they fight. I blind fold to again see how they fight. My gut tells me pretty quick if this horse has a self distruct instinct or not?? I will not buy an idiot. A fighter yes but not one that will self disctruct.

As for strength I feel I can handle just about any horse I choose, he will not run over me, dominate me or get away with anything. 
I am strong , lots of experience and no fear. A combination hard to beat.
Did I mention a true love for all animals.  I will not harm a worm if I can help it.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I am not that fragile and have been bucked off many a time, had horses fall on me, been kicked alot but I always seem to stand right back up and get back on.
> I do not buy idiots. I ride idiots for others but most of those problems are made by the people themselves.
> I pick my new prospects carefully. I hobble , well a form of hobble right away with the owners permission to see how they fight. I blind fold to again see how they fight. My gut tells me pretty quick if this horse has a self distruct instinct or not?? I will not buy an idiot. A fighter yes but not one that will self disctruct.
> 
> ...


I don't have fear, per say, but I do know what I can't handle and whats too dangerous for me. I, unfortunately, am not a strong guy who can handle a whole bunch of beatings, I am a skinny little girl and I've been hurt trying to go past my limits. I do try to be brave, but I do tend to get nervous sometimes. 

BTW I couldn't hurt any kind of animal, either. lol I can't even squash a spider. lol


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:


> I don't have fear, per say, but I do know what I can't handle and whats too dangerous for me. I, unfortunately, am not a strong guy who can handle a whole bunch of beatings, I am a skinny little girl and I've been hurt trying to go past my limits. I do try to be brave, but I do tend to get nervous sometimes.
> 
> BTW I couldn't hurt any kind of animal, either. lol I can't even squash a spider. lol


You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you. I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. *All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you.* I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
> To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.


Ha-ha! Thanks, RD! Most of us need to hear it from time to time. Lol! Merry X-mas to you (and everyone else) too!


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> You are far braver then I am. You realize this animal can hurt you and yet you still do it. All of you who have fears and still ride are brave and my hat is off to you. I don't think I would enjoy riding if for one minute I thought the horse could beat me.
> To all the brave woman out there Merry Christmas and I think I have railroaded this post enough. I am out of it.


RD that is definitely what a lot of people need to hear...lol. I know I fall into that category of having that fear and having to try to work through it. I've been working hard to get over it and ride more and more difficult horses. I have disagreed with some of your methods before, but I am learning from my step-dad that it works well if you know what you are doing. You are a lot like him. And it seems that you turn out really good horses. 

Merry Christmas everyone!!!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> you need to remember this isnt the wild... horses cannot survive long if they are let to fend on their own with no other horses. ive seen people with horses in their back yards , alone , in 4 ft of snow no blanket no shelter makes me wonder if they even have water. i think thats pure abuse and in the state of NY it IS abuse and you can have your horse taken away.


If a horse were actually left out (no fences), he would actually probably fare quite well. Out here where I live, it's not uncommon for people to turn their horses loose at any given time, to graze over the open prairies, even in the winter time, the horses are still loose; they are rounded up and caught when they are needed (for ranch work, or otherwise). Granted I live in high desert, but when I was growing up, our horses were always out in the fields scratching for food, EVEN while there was hay available; and forget bringing them in sometimes, even in the middle of snow storms...they would stand out in the middle of the field, butts to the wind; we'd have to go out and bring them in!!! They aren't so removed from nature, that they couldn't live that way if they had too. 

Now, I am not talking about the people who have horses living in small paddocks, and not feeding often enough, or having a shelter available...yes, that is abuse in the form of neglect. 

But to say a horse absolutely couldn't survive if it was turned out in in the wild...that's pretty far fetched. Humans have made horse life 'cush', by adding blankets, heated barns, and limited turn out, for fear of the horse getting 'too cold'...I grew up in MN, and my horses were NEVER blanketed, even in some of the most inclimate weather; they had access to shelter, but rarely used it, until I brought them in. 

Now, back to the actual OP's question, I think what I constitute as abuse is 1) owning it, but not caring for it (ie, feeding, and making sure there is adequate water) or 2) inflicting pain just to inflict pain; can be out of anger, or otherwise, but isn't constructive.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> ^^^Exactly!! It is much better to address the problem before you need to punish the horse. Instead of kicking the horse in the belly after he kicks you, why not check the horse out and find out if it's a kicker and solve the problem in a pro-active way. The only reason a horse kicks is because it thinks it has to to save it's life.


 
Well, there are times when extreme measures are warranted.
I train using positive reinforcement and my students will tell you it is RARE that I ever use "corporal" punishment.

BUT, there is a time and place....

Many years ago I was new to a riding team. I came with the reputation of getting along with rank horses. The coach pointed to a stall and said that was my horse. He said, quietly "be careful when you go in his stall". I guess I should have listened more carefully....

When I fully entered the stall, the horse pinned his ears and attacked. All I could do (my exit was blocked) was kick him with my instep (top of foot, not the toe) right under his belly. He stopped and stared at me. Three times he attacked, three times I kicked back, but only one kick for one attack. I refused to leave the stall until this was resolved, or I would never have been able to deal with him. I spent and hour standing there as we measured each other up. He, eventually came over to check me out closer. This time he was interested in being touched. Needless to say, from that time on, we became a team and competed well together. No one else could, or WOULD, ride hime. I loved that guy, and I believe the love and respect were mutual.

What I did was born in neccessity and was not inflicting pain, as much as showing that I was going to stand my ground. I don't remember ever having to lay a hand on him again.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Well unless a tree line counts as shelter, we are horsey abusers. We typically get mass amounts of snow and temps in the -40's all winter, for many months, and our herd lives outside 24/7 without blankets (except my Arab mare who never grows a proper coat) and no "shelter". Funny how they all come though into spring fatter then when they went in.


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## Kansasbarrelracer (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow so many different views on this. Great topic Kevin.

From reading what other people read then I must be one abusive son of a gun. When my horses are bad, you better believe their gonna get a smack on the muzzle or a kick to the belly.

I don't do it for the hell of it. I do it because my horses need to know that what they did was wrong, and they tend to never forget that. You have 3 seconds to discipline a horse before they don't know why you did it. I always react within those 3 seconds. I will not let my horses get away with ANYTHING. Biting, kicking, bucking, rearing, cow kicking, etc. my horses don't know the meaning to any of those when I'm around.

But as for abuse, I see it as someone consistently whipping their horse for no good reason, using high ported bits (I hate them), using any type of equipment that is ill fitting or hurts the animal in any way, shape, or form.

I have friends who's horses say outside 24/7, with no shelter, or a blanket and thoses horses are just fine. Yes they have water, and yes they have hay but her horses are fat and happy. They stand against the trees to block the wind, so in all I don't believe its neglect for a horse to be out 24/7 without a blanket.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

*The root causes*

We have just scratched the surface of the topic and this might be called "Chapter two"

Now I am not talking about the actual smack or kick here,but the ground work that sets up the situation of abuse.

Husband and wife get pressure from their daughter buy buy her a pony because the neighbors bought their little girl a pony.

The wife pet a horse when she was 8 year old and an aunt got her 3 riding lessons for a birthday when she was 9.
Mom thinks this is a great idea and has been promised by a friend to help out and it will be great.

So mom and dad want their daughter to have what they had when they were growing up(but they really didn't have it either).
Dad remember the visits to his grandfathers farm and "OL Gus" the plow horse and he is filled with memories also.

So off to the auction they go to find their daughter a pony.
Now the friend that is going to help pick out "Sparkles the wonder horse" had 5 lessons when she was 9 and so she is in charge of the operation because of her superior insight.

Dad is put in charge of converting the old gardening shed into housing for Sparkles.
He uses what ever he has on hand for the project and follows the basic guide of "well,it's just a horse".

Food?
We have lots of weeds that need to be taken out and maybe this is a way to get out of doing that and having a little more time to watch some football is dads first thought.
Dad thinks they are buying a goat.

Now things are going along pretty well because Sparkles had not been wormed for three years before he got to the auction and he is so underweight that he doesn't even care when the little girl climbs up on his back and hang on to the mane.
Mom just thinks it looks so cute and takes a couple hundred pictures to send to the relatives.

This is just one of thousands of scenarios that get played out every day across the country.

Tell me one of yours.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

"All I could do (my exit was blocked) was kick him with my instep (top of foot, not the toe)"

thats what i was saying/ment!!!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Well, mine isn't what I would call 'abuse', as much as just plain ignorance and stupidity; something like what yours is...

My first year in college I met a family at the church I was attending; turned out they had a yearling Paint\Mustang colt who was out of control. They had bought him the prior year off of a feedlot; they got him back into condition, and he was well cared for, but they had NO clue how to train a young horse. They were of the mentality that "lets get one that our daughter can grow up with." 

Well, when they found out that I trained horses as a 'side' when ever I could, they asked if I could come out and evaluate him. So I went out one night after prayer meeting, and yes, this boy was out of control. 

He bit, he would kick, charge...anything to get "his" way. HE was in control. So after the owner stepped away from the gate (hadn't entered), I asked for a lead rope. I went stepped in the stall\run in and when he came at me, I flung the lead rope at his chest...he gave me a "what the???" type look, and backed off a few steps...he tried charging again, and I did the same...this time he went out the gate and into the paddock. We kept doing this 'dance' until he finally came up with a friendly curious posture. When I reached to rub his neck, he snaked his neck around to bite me, but I just raised me arm...he hit my elbow and decided he wouldn't try that again (at least for that night). When that was over, I was rubbing his neck and body all over, and when I got around to his right side, he tried to strike at me with his front foot...I flipped the lead rope at his chest again, and we started our 'dance' again...til he finally came up, friendly, and let me rub him all over. This was not a horse who was afraid of humans; on the contrary, he was so used to being the leader, that he had a hard time submitting to leadership. It took a long time for me to undo the damage. 

Like I said, not necessarily 'abuse' in the terms most people think of, but if a person goes into horse ownership blindly, the horse will suffer, whether it's physically, or mentally. I wound up buying that horse from my friends, spent two years training him, and wound up selling him to some really good friends of mine.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

thats a good story M2P. if i had an outta control horse i'd take your methods. and im not being sarcastic at all


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I believe that "abuse" is widespread and just everywhere.

Why is it that every other horse that gets rescued or purchased for a very low price is described by the new owner to be "Abused" and mishandled?

There has to be someone out there that is beating up all these horses.

So who is it?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I consider my paint as abused. However the guy I took her from as yearling considered it as "training". Well. If 24/7 in 8 X 10 (if not smaller) never cleaned stall in mud up to the knee and the rope on neck tied to the rail so the guy can drag the horse to the wall is TRAINING (of course I don't even talk about never done hoofs, never done deworming, and underweight), then I don't know what ABUSE is. :shock:


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## snoggle (Jun 13, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I believe that "abuse" is widespread and just everywhere.
> 
> Why is it that every other horse that gets rescued or purchased for a very low price is described by the new owner to be "Abused" and mishandled?
> 
> ...


Yes, abuse and neglect are rampant. The problem is that the people who are doing the abusing don't feel that they are abusing their horses. Usually they think they are training them or "not babying them".  

My neighbor thinks he is quite good to his horses, but after I boarded mine there for a little while, I beg to differ. If a horse isn't doing what he wants, he assumes that they are acting up and either hits them or forces them to do what they don't want to do. I've seen him do this when there was an obvious tack problem (ill fitting saddle which resulted in severe saddle sores, bleeding mouth from a too tight bit). Once he forced a horse to cross an ice filled creek, even though she didn't want to at all - she got stuck in the frigid water and almost didn't make it out alive. He once forced the same horse to keep going in the dark when she didn't want to, she ended up falling in a deep trench that was in the road that he couldn't see. They both ended up badly injured.  (BTW - Hubby and I tended to the horses wounds - owner couldn't be bothered to check on her himself or call a vet! :-x)

He doesn't ever trust their judgement or give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of his "forceful" training would be appropriate if the horse really were "acting up". But all too often the horse is using good judgement or reacting out of fear or pain - behaviors which should never be punished! I had a hard time differentiating this when I first got my girl and I was opposed to any physical methods. Then I saw how much the horses kick and bite each other and realized that there are times a smack from me is okay (like when my mare really did try to test me a couple of times with biting for no reason - I smacked her immediately, she's been a delight ever since). 

This is why it isn't black or white. This is why you don't have people posting, "Hi my name is Bob and I abuse my horses daily." Saying you punish a certain behavior isn't enough to differentiate abuse from training. It often depends on why the horse is exhibiting the behavior and whether or not the owner or trainer tries to figure that out.


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