# Swivel vs Fixed Western Shanks



## Bluroan (Mar 26, 2021)

The topic says it all.. I'm looking into using a correction bit on my horse and it has been tested and approved by my horse that he indeed likes it. I'm just not sure if the swivel (on the left) or the fixed western shank (on the right) make that much of a difference? If this helps, I prefer direct rein style and sometimes, I would like to do lateral work or require them to flex to inside of the circle during riding work.
Also, I want to hear thoughts on correction bit versus the swivel ported bit? Thank you all!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

My opinion is probably unpopular, but correction bits aren't all that awesome. Especially the ones that break (swivel) on each side of the port. I used 2 or 3 different ones on rope horses and I formed the opinion that they were trash for direct reining. On a more or less finished rope/ranch horse being rode primarily 1 handed they were alright, but I got along better with more of a Billy Allen type of mouthpiece or a dogbone on a shorter shank.

As far as shanks go, a solid shank is more stable with less "noise" so might be a better option on a horse that tends to be a little mouthy and may have more nervous tendencies.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what is a 'correction' bit? what qualifies a bit for that name?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I like a Billy Allen. I like the swivel shanks but also like the quietness of the mouthpiece. 




  








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bsms


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Nov 10, 2020







I think the swivel shanks help with direct reining but I've also direct reined with a solid low port curb. Day to day, though, I'm more likely to reach for the Billy Allen.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> what is a 'correction' bit? what qualifies a bit for that


A ported leverage bit that swivels on either side of the port. 

Shank styles and port style/height vary.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

do you mean swivel, or rotate? On some bits the shank can swivel outward, meaning away from the face, but cannot reallly rotate independently on each side. Rotate meaning swing upward/backward greater on one side than the other. Some bits have both actions.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

@tinyliny 

All correction bits I've seen have a swivel cheek of some kind. Custom ones may have other options though.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Following, wondering the same thing...not using a correction, just a low port curb, but wondering if I should use a fixed shank for everyday riding. My critter neck reins and responds to leg pressure very well. She does best in a mullen mouthpiece. Thinking that all the moving parts might be the problem since she's a fidgety thing.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

So, basically, the swivel cheeks are designed for direct reining and to be more lateral than fixed cheeks. In basic and typical progressions, the correction bit is a sort of bottleneck of biting and finishing a horse. It is the first type of mouthpiece for many horses where the cheeks do not move independently. That being said, any bit that articulates, either in the cheek, the mouthpiece, or both, adds more signal to the bit in terms of it taking more time for the curb to come tight and the real leverage of the bit to be enacted (and motion in the mouth to end). So, fixed cheeks and solid mouthpieces inherently have a quicker action than any articulating bit of the same leverage ration, and they will also tend to stiffen a horse up. These fixed bits are best reserved for very finished horses that yield laterally with just a hint from the hand and no need to actually handle the horse's mouth. Beyond the correction bit is also where most trainers would really force themselves to ride in just one hand, where most of us will occasionally two hand a correction bit.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I have a low port fixed shanked bit my gelding likes. He's very soft in the face laterally an vertically an one handed broke. When doing circles he laterally bends in direction of circle. He rides off seat an legs. 

Does spins all I do is lay rein on neck direction I want put leg on an he spins. Does this both directions. Want more speed I cluck. 

Will ride in a swivel shank port bit but doesn't like it as much. Does two handed in a fixed shank so I mostly ride in a fixed shank bit. Not very often I ride two handed no need to. If I want to ride two handed, I put him a D ring snaffle. 

Think if horse is well trained bit doesn't matter. My gelding will do all of above in a rope halter.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Not to distract from the OP, since this question could help clarify why or why not to use swivel or fixed shanks, but I have an inquiry. 

Which shank would be better for a horse who doesn't like movement in her mouth/around her mouth? The horse neckreins and responds to leg pressure well for turns but is still working on sidepassing and turning on the haunches. So basically we still need to work on some things, but she performs best in a curb, and the few times she's been ridden in a fixed shank, she's done great.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm 98% sure that both of those mouthpieces swivel, as well as the cheeks, and I'd call them both correction bits. 

Those two bits have relatively the same shank, it's just that the Balding (the first one) has those little D's on the side so you could put reins on them and use the bit essentially like a snaffle if you needed to. The Balding may have a tiny bit more sweep to the shank as well. It's said that a more swept back shank offers more pre-signal to the horse, but between the two bits you posted, it would be a very minimal difference. 

Also, the Balding is probably a $250-$300 bit whereas the other one might be $70-$100. Higher end bits do usually have a nicer feel, if it fits in your budget.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Just another thought; if you are showing make sure if you use a correction bit they are show legal. None of the shows I show in allow correction bits. I don't own a correction bit; not a fan of them and the bits I have fit my purpose, so never felt the need for one. My transition bit is a swivel cheek Billy Allen. My bridle bits are are fixed shanked ported mouths with rollers (rollers are required in bridle bits for cow horse).


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Bluroan said:


> The topic says it all.. I'm looking into using a correction bit on my horse and it has been tested and approved by my horse that he indeed likes it. I'm just not sure if the swivel or the fixed western shank make that much of a difference? If this helps, I prefer direct rein style and sometimes, I would like to do lateral work or require them to flex to inside of the circle during riding work.
> Also, I want to hear thoughts on correction bit versus the swivel ported bit? Thank you all!
> View attachment 1111328


Do you realize that both of those bits you posted will SWIVEL? If you think the one on the right is fixed, it is not. It will move.

This is a correction bit that has fixed shanks (also has a fixed mouthpiece)


It is NOT a good idea to use a bit that is fixed for direct reining. They are intended for finished horses that neck rein and work off seat/legs. 

The ones you posted originally could be used for direct reining because they have movement on both the shanks and the mouthpieces.

Both of the bits you posted are STRONG correction bits. There is an EDGE on the bottom of that port that will touch the tongue/bars, versus something is a more an upside down V or U shape with a rounded softer edge. It will give tongue relief because of the port (and some horses really like tongue relief), but be warned you need to keep your hands light. Even the horse tossing their head a couple times, or the riding yanking on the bit, can easily result in bruising of the bars inside the horse's mouth, due to the action of leverage. 

I ride in correction bits myself from time to time but you need to be educated to use them. I have one like you had pictured on the right (Bob Avila bit), and I am impatiently waiting a new Jim Edwards bit I ordered.

Go on YouTube and search for Jim Edwards Bits. He has some really great explanations of the correction bits he makes, and how the different designs affect the horse's mouth.


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## Bluroan (Mar 26, 2021)

beau159 said:


> Do you realize that both of those bits you posted will SWIVEL? If you think the one on the right is fixed, it is not. It will move.
> 
> This is a correction bit that has fixed shanks (also has a fixed mouthpiece)
> 
> ...


Hi, 

I didn't realize that because I've dealt with bits that have a "slip" shank and I didn't know if this applies to the western bits based on the design. Whereas some horses prefer that they can "hold" the bit in their mouth or give them a more little more pre-warning of the actual curb use. I wasn't sure if the design was just purely for a cosmetic look or it actually had a purpose to it. Thank you! 
I can assure you that I'm an experienced handler working directly under the supervision of horse trainers and they actually allowed me to ride my gelding in this bit and experimented. It was a supervised and controlled ride that went well. 
I'll certainly look into this further.


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## Bluroan (Mar 26, 2021)

tinyliny said:


> do you mean swivel, or rotate? On some bits the shank can swivel outward, meaning away from the face, but cannot reallly rotate independently on each side. Rotate meaning swing upward/backward greater on one side than the other. Some bits have both actions.


I guess it can be both. I'm a primarily an english rider but I don't mind exploring other options! I've thought about the bit that would actually rotate to try on my gelding to see if he would like that as well. I wasn't sure the one on the left does anything different due to the d-rings on the side compared to the fixed shanks on the left.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Bluroan said:


> I didn't realize that because I've dealt with bits that have a "slip" shank and I didn't know if this applies to the western bits based on the design. Whereas some horses prefer that they can "hold" the bit in their mouth or give them a more little more pre-warning of the actual curb use. I wasn't sure if the design was just purely for a cosmetic look or it actually had a purpose to it. Thank you!
> I can assure you that I'm an experienced handler working directly under the supervision of horse trainers and they actually allowed me to ride my gelding in this bit and experimented. It was a supervised and controlled ride that went well.
> I'll certainly look into this further.


In the western world, this is called a gag bit (not a slip shank). Yes, the idea is that it could give the horse a pre-warning before the bit is fully engaged. Note that gag bits are NOT legal to show in, if you do any showing. 

The gag can be small, such as with a Jr. Cowhorse

Or the gag action can be very large, such as with a Carol GooseTree Simplicity where it can slide the whole length.




Bluroan said:


> I guess it can be both. I'm a primarily an english rider but I don't mind exploring other options! I've thought about the bit that would actually rotate to try on my gelding to see if he would like that as well. I wasn't sure the one on the left does anything different due to the d-rings on the side compared to the fixed shanks on the left.


The bit on the left will have less play on the movement of the shanks, because of the large D rings that will "stabilize" it. 
The bit on the right (I feel) would be a better option for direction reining b/c the design will allow for more movement.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Correction bits don’t correct anything, clever name for a bad bit. Les Vogt sells an Argentine bit that does a good job of being a transition bit. Several makers like David Hunt make a similar bit that is quite popular here.

@DanielDauphin has some good videos on bits to check out.

I think people see a bit that swivels and articulates in every direction and think that is going to be more mild, easier on the horse. A solid bar has many advantages for the horse but it is a longer process to get there.


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## Bluroan (Mar 26, 2021)

beau159 said:


> In the western world, this is called a gag bit (not a slip shank). Yes, the idea is that it could give the horse a pre-warning before the bit is fully engaged. Note that gag bits are NOT legal to show in, if you do any showing.
> 
> The gag can be small, such as with a Jr. Cowhorse
> 
> ...


Oh okay! This helps so much! I was really stumped and didn’t know because I was also comparing prices as well. Thank you for your time and patience explaining the differences with the shank styles and such. I’ll certainly look into getting a fixed shank now.
Is there any videos demonstrating that difference and effectiveness of the fixed shanks vs the d ring shanks?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielDauphin/videos



It will take a few hours to watch, but well worth it if you are seriously interested in bits. Post #9 on this thread came from @DanielDauphin .


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Can someone post a picture of a correction bit with a completely solid shank? Google isn't giving me anything.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I think this might qualify as appears not much moves independently, especially the shanks that I can detect..








Oxbow Tack Brown Dot Correction Bit


Check out the deal on Oxbow Tack Brown Dot Correction Bit at Coolhorse




shop.coolhorse.com


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

@horselovinguy

The shanks still swivel in and out. 

When someone says solid shank I picture this:









And I have yet to see a shank like that on a correction type mouthpiece. 

Just some confusion with definitions over here 🤦‍♀️


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Me too....but I've never seen shanks like what you pictured either...
And a cricket ported mouthpiece to me is not "correction" ....
Or is it???
🐴...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

horselovinguy said:


> Me too....but I've never seen shanks like what you pictured either...
> And a cricket ported mouthpiece to me is not "correction" ....
> Or is it???
> 🐴...


It's not a correction bit, just a simple curb bit, example of a solid shank. 

I'm just struggling to find a correction mouthpiece on a completely solid shank. Seems like if a bit has movement in the mouthpiece, it's put on a swivel shank. 

I suppose one could make a swivel shank more solid by attaching a metal slobber bar.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

ChieTheRider said:


> Following, wondering the same thing...not using a correction, just a low port curb, but wondering if I should use a fixed shank for everyday riding. My critter neck reins and responds to leg pressure very well. She does best in a mullen mouthpiece. Thinking that all the moving parts might be the problem since she's a fidgety thing.


I was raised, in the early 60’s on a farm, using two kinds of bits — one for driving and one for riding.

Riding bits were always low port curb bits with solid shanks and that is what I trained my Arab/Saddlebred with but he was never truly happy in that bit.

Some years later, a wise Amish man who owned a tack shop had me try a Walking Horse bit on my Arab/Saddlebred. It was a low port curb with swivel shanks.

Seeing the look on my face, he chuckled and said. “a horse does not have to be a Tennessee Walker to like this bit. I will take it back if he doesn’t like it”.

That was late 1960’s and I still have that bit. My horse loved it. My Walking Horses that wear or wore bits, all use low port curbs with swivel shanks. There are different shank lengths.

My first Walking Horse, Duke, (RIP) loved his bit and would occasionally get the reins swinging on purpose for my entertainment. He was a step pacer so his neck moved side-to-side, it was easy for him to swing those reins.

People think these bits are evil — it’s the hands on the reins that make them harsh - people who ride the horse’s head can get into trouble regardless of what kind of bit they use———-











Unless I was driving a horse, I will not direct rein. All my trail horses were broke to neck rein and they know leg cues. If the horse can’t neck rein with the flick of a finger on the rein, it’s going to learn to, if i’m buying the feed for it

I am not a fan of those correction bits @QHriderKE posted - not at all a fan.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

To find a correction bit with a fixed cheek, you'll have to look in the custom world as that would be highly non-typical. Having a swivel cheek is one of the defining characteristics of correction bits. I can't post a link to the video, due to forum rules.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

To get a correction bit with a fixed shank kind of defeats the use of a correction bit. Because of the loose shanks and moving mouthpiece it is the versatile training bit it's meant to be used as.
I work for a cutting horse trainer and the correction bit other than a snaffle is the most used bit. We have a whole bridle rack full of them with varying differences. All corrections are not created equal. Some have short shanks, long shanks, swept back cheeks, taller ports, D on the shank. I seen this mentioned earlier, the D adds weight behind the mouthpiece allowing it lay flatter, also you can use reins on the D.

The correction is our transition bit out of the simple snaffle their 3-4 year old year. Some may clutch at their pearls but it is an easy transition. Also I ride the majority of the horses two handed in the correction. Even the older aged event, aged out and open horses. Riding in it two handed I can get my job done pretty fast, I make sure all the body parts are soft and responsive while knocking the fresh off and hand over to the trainer to get worked on a cow or flag. He may use that same bit to work cows or may change it up but he will go one handed and drop his hand completely and only pick it up to "correct" as needed.(see what I did there..lol) It's a schooling/training bit.

On the other hand, my bay horse who can be quite noodly and is bothered by a busy mouthpiece will try to hide from a correction and get overbent. He rides much better in a more traditional bridle. He likes a Mona Lisa or frog mouthpiece the best. And I have an old aluminum cheek Buster Welch cutter bit with a low or Sweetwater mouthpiece in it that he loves.

In my opinion, it depends on the horse and the style of training. I'm not going to look at a bit and say it's awful. Like the Billy Allen bits posted earlier, people have success with them but I sold the one I had.
To the OP, try bits out, buy used and resell if they don't work for you and your horse.


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