# Interesting color, any thoughts?



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

I stumbled across this horse today and I have to say, I haven't seen anything like her. Is it probably a skin condition? She is listed for sale and her owner does state that she's healthy. I'm guessing she's an appaloosa from the skin mottling on her muzzle.. but other than that, any thoughts?

I hope this hasn't been discussed already


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I would guess this might be some sort of fungal infection, as I don't know of any color traits that manifest this way (It's not stripy enough for brindle; not blocky enough to be a chimera; etc, etc). 
Subbing to hear what the experts say!


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

I was thinking fungal too, but when I look at horses who actually have infections (via google), she seems a bit different. Is it an illness or could it be genetics somehow?


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

Very interesting looking. It does look like she might have hair missing in areas as well, which would make me lean even more toward a skin infection/fungal issue.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It's got to be a skin infection. There is no gloss to that coat. Look at your own horse, who, even when muddy has a sheen to his coat.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree with fungal, and still infected. The fungal pictures readily available are usually once the infection is gone, and the hair has "healed" which is why they appear white. This looks like it is part way through the damage to the skin, which eventually will scar white, but it doesn't just turn white instantly.


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## Thoroughbredlover33 (Mar 19, 2014)

I'd say it is most certainly a fungal infection of some sort. There was a Saddlebred who got a fungal infection and his coat got large white blotches on it. While the horse above doesn't have white blotches, it looks like she could have some early stages of whatever this may be. Below are pictures of Simply Striking before and after the infection.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Wow, the before and after photos above are crazy!

Does anyone know much about the Saddleseat ring? Was he still successfully shown after overcoming the infection, given those scars?


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

If anyone figures this out, let me know! I don't think it's fungal.

My grandfather's double registered Appaloosa/Colorado Ranger mare has that same thing going on. She's black with a small blanket, and has other characteristics of Lp, such as mottled skin, white sclera, and striped hooves. My grandfather has owned her since she was about 8 or so. She did not have any copper spots when he bought her. When she was about 15, they started appearing, a few on her face at first, and then more appeared. They seem to appear and disappear, with the seasons, and with each shedding. She's never had any sort of fungus, or balding at all.

Maybe it's some strange effect of Lp?

I'll post pictures when I get home. I'm at work right now and can't access them.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry, this took a little longer than I had hoped. Here are the pictures I promised.

This is summer 2006 before the copper spots appeared









Summer 2013


















October 2013









December 2013


















July 2014


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

That just DOESN'T look healthy.
Roaning (rabicauno, which I just heard about last year...), white spots from injury, yeah, but this, NO.
In fact, that SB looks like he's recovered and the skin went white where it was injured.
What you the VET say?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

kiltsrhott said:


> Sorry, this took a little longer than I had hoped. Here are the pictures I promised.
> 
> This is summer 2006 before the copper spots appeared
> 
> ...


Really cool, thanks for sharing! Looks a lot like the horse in question. My guess is the horse in question is also an appy. Not only the mottled skin as someone else mentioned, but the sclera as well.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

Interesting indeed! I had a sorrel mare that got these kinds of spots all over her muzzle, every single spring. They disappeared after a few months and reappeared next spring. I'm guessing that's some sort of fungal thing, though, since it only appears in springtime.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

If the original horse in question doesn't have some sort of skin condition, then it's almost as if it got a messed up version of an agouti gene that, instead of having a very specific large area where it blocks the production of black pigment, it has small random spots! Or some form of chimera? Really hard to say, but very interesting.

BTW, I did notice that on both horses, the color of the spots appears to perfectly match the color of the hair inside the ears. Don't know if that means anything ... just saying ....


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Take a look at Ava Minted Design, a DNA tested grulla appaloosa (black + dun + appaloosa)

As a yearling:









Copper spots started showing up as a long yearling:









And as a 3 year old:









I'd be willing to guess this is a 'common' appy trait that is shown in the extreme in this horse, with more 'normal' examples from OP and kiltsrhott.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

What kind of fungus causes this???


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

OP . it could be fungus, it could be the appy gene dong its odd appy thing. It could be seasonal , from something in the dirt/soil


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

verona1016 said:


> Take a look at Ava Minted Design, a DNA tested grulla appaloosa (black + dun + appaloosa)
> 
> As a yearling:
> 
> ...


Wow! This is crazy! What an extreme example!

I can't speak for the horse in the OP's original post, but I know for 100% certain that my grandfather's horse doesn't have fungus. There is no flaking skin, dull coat, or hair loss what so ever, just a color change. Some of her white spots migrate and change with the seasons too. One year, she developed an array of dime to nickel sized white spots all over her neck. They disappeared at her next shedding and never returned. Scars tend to leave a white mark behind, not a red mark. They tend to be permanent, and fixed in location. There is also a visual lesion before the formation of the scar. My grandfather's mare has never had a visible skin lesion. I have also never seen another horse with the same traits or "symptoms", despite her being in contact with other horses.

Regardless of what they are, I think they look kinda neat. They're part of what makes our Foxy unique! She's 19 this year and has never been unhealthy; that's what really counts.


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## quinn (Nov 8, 2013)

Thoroughbredlover33 said:


> I'd say it is most certainly a fungal infection of some sort. There was a Saddlebred who got a fungal infection and his coat got large white blotches on it. While the horse above doesn't have white blotches, it looks like she could have some early stages of whatever this may be. Below are pictures of Simply Striking before and after the infection.



I don't like sick horses, but I kinda like the spots in the after pic. NOT worth getting an infection for though.





kiltsrhott said:


> Sorry, this took a little longer than I had hoped. Here are the pictures I promised.
> 
> This is summer 2006 before the copper spots appeared
> 
> ...


I love her expressions. It looks like she has quite a personality!


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

quinn said:


> I love her expressions. It looks like she has quite a personality!


Thanks! She certainly does have quite the personality! Foxy's very smart, and so well-behaved. She just knows things, and doesn't behave at all like a horse. Working with Foxy is like working with another human being. She's so expressive, and I'm 100% certain she's understands and uses sarcasm through her expressions.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

To me on the Appy and if the first horse is Appy of some sort, and a fungus is ruled out. I think it might have something to do with the Appy 'Bronzing effect' going a bit 'off' or slowly changing the coat as in the pictures from Verona.

The 'Bronzing' will make a black horse look chestnut/ chocolate brown. As far as I know the bronze effect is present early on, but maybe something triggered it later on with these horses.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Kyro said:


> I was thinking fungal too, but when I look at horses who actually have infections (via google), she seems a bit different. Is it an illness or could it be genetics somehow?


This is just some general info for you: When a female animal is like that from the beginning, you could be looking at a similar thing (perhaps by recent mutation) as the mechanism behind tortoiseshell patterning in cats. When colour information is carried on X chromosomes rather than autosomes, then things can get binary when the X chromosomes are carrying different colour alleles because one X chromosome from each pair is "turned off" randomly during embryonic development. (The "switched off" Xs are called Barr bodies.) Tortoiseshells are usually tricolour, and the X-switching is responsible for two of the three colours, but there are other situations where the additional colour factor doesn't come into play.

In acquired cases of spottiness, besides infections and other forms of skin irritation, it's also good to consider trace element deficiencies. In typical mammals, the colour effects of certain trace element deficiencies (copper is one, but only one) tend to be more even, e.g. yellowing/loss of depth to the coat pigment - although of course, pale "spectacles" around the eyes are a classical sign of copper deficiency in cattle. In atypical animals, the effect could be spotty - especially if they're female. It could be a "Barr body/ X switching" type effect that affects how well the deficiency is handled by the pigmentation mechanism (not as well in the paler areas, better in the darker areas).

Total loss of pigmentation (white patches/spots appearing) is more typically associated with severe skin irritations and infections than mere change of colour from one to another, paler/darker colour.

(Sorry it's so late, but it was interesting! )


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

PS: I should have said "female mammal" - since in some other types of animals, it is the male who has two identical sex chromosomes! ;-)


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

I bred Appalooas for years. Some black based horses carry very strong colour suppression genes. Chances are what you are seeing is the white spotting being suppressed. This is more common in mares than stallions/geldings. Hope this helps.


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