# Pangre At gene also wild bay color in quarter horses



## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Is anyone familiar with the At gene, also called pangre that causes extra creme on a horse? I would like to see some pictures of horses with this gene. 

I keep researching my filly. She is registered as a red dun and looks the part in the winter except very white belly and creme under the red. In summer she looks just like a buckskin. I have been told she is a wild bay.... which is pangre At gene
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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Isn't At just brown and pangare is something different (gene wise)? I may be wrong haha

Do you have any photos of your filly?

This horse has pangare


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I think you have been informed incorrectly. At is part of the agouti gene modifiers and creates brown. This does lighten the nose, belly and other soft points - but only on a black-based horse. The wild bay is a different modifier - but also part of the agouti series. Wild bay is denoted as A+ and it limited the bay markings to lower on the legs. Regular Agouti is of course bay.

Pangre (or mealy) is completely different - but the horse above is a perfect example. It lightens the nose and belly and other "soft points" on various colors when present. The one above is on a chestnut horse and combined with the flaxen makes it almost look palomino.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Wild Bay: (A+)










Brown: (At)










And compare those with the horse above who is pangare/mealy.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

OP - Pictures of your horse would also be helpful in seeing exactly what you are trying to describe.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

To me wild bay the black points only extend just slightly above the pasterns (like the horse posted here) and not up to the knee. However there is no test yet, so we don't know the exact range of what the gene does.

I wouldn't consider the horse Cat posted to be a wild bay.

But as others have said At is brown and pangere lightens the belly and muzzle to a cream color. Would love to see summer and winter pics of your filly.


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

I don't know how to post pictures on here no button to do so and a smart phone
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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

I have been told pangre or wild bay and one web site said they were the same.... she has a lot of white on her belly... the vet asked me if she was an appy because of the nickel size white spots on her chest

White hair on her belly.. she looks like the wild bay in cat's first picture in the summer except white stomach colors
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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Her dam was a bay dun her sire a sorrel. I need to see more pics... sorrels are A+ carriers... he also carrier rabicano which my filly has (skunk tail)
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorrels/chestnuts can carry any form of agouti (including a lack of agouti). 


What websites are you using for your information? 

To post pictures, try viewing the website full site and it will give you more posting options including posting pictures.


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Sorry I meant sorrels CAN be A+ carriers opps
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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Okay after twenty minutes I got to this on full site. It wants an URL for my picture which in on my cell phone. Full site on small screen is driving me crazy and I am not smart so smart phone illierate


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

http://www.horseforum.com/members/90001/album/sheriff-chica-9529/


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

I tried no picture


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

http://www.horseforum.com/members/90001/album/sheriff-chica-9529/img-20130919-135239-69009/

The link above has an album with several pictures. Some are of my gelding and some of my paint mare. The buckskin and red looking one are all Chica the possible wild bay in question


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Your horse is dun definitely not a red dun (chestnut + dun) I'm thinking maybe brown based agouti instead of bay agouti. But I'm not sure the lighting and angles aren't great. 
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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

In the winter she is red red


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Her mane and tail are black


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

She's black based definitely. She has agouti which makes a black horse bay or brown depending on the agouti type. Not red based. She has a dilution gene called dun I don't think she is wild bay. Could have pangre which makes the soft parts mousey grey does it look like this in the winter?


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

She looks bay dun to me. I don't see pangare, just dun frosting.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

As said a red dun is a chestnut with dun. If the horse has black it is not red based and cannot be red dun. While some colors can look similar red dun won't look anything like a black/bay based horse, since there is no black. If your mare has a black mane and tail she cannot be and does not "look" like a red dun.


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> She's black based definitely. She has agouti which makes a black horse bay or brown depending on the agouti type. Not red based. She has a dilution gene called dun I don't think she is wild bay. Could have pangre which makes the soft parts mousey grey does it look like this in the winter?


Yes a lot of that... the white shines on belly in winter


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> As said a red dun is a chestnut with dun. If the horse has black it is not red based and cannot be red dun. While some colors can look similar red dun won't look anything like a black/bay based horse, since there is no black. If your mare has a black mane and tail she cannot be and does not "look" like a red dun.


Thanks for that tid bit never dawned on me red dun should not have a black mane and tail!! Thanks!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Well technically a red dun can have a dark mane and tail if they for instance or liver chestnut or have sooty. But what makes the OP's horse bay is the clearly black legs. Chestnuts can have pretty dark legs but they will never have true black points.


And the colt I posted above his pangre kinda comes and goes depending on the time of the year. It expresses the most in winter.

Spring 2013


Summer 2013

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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

The pangre is pretty... I wonder how long before they come up with a test for it. I wish I had more and better pics of my girl but I don't I expected a red dun luckily the color change is gorgeous and I always wanted a buckskin... so ahhh she comes close.

The pictures are helpful I want to see more it is intreging even if my horse isn't a wild bay or pangre.... truthfully right now I will never know


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Get some clear pics of her in good lighting we can tell you a lot about her color.
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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

All the same horse black mane and tail.... I call her a bay dun.... registered as a red dun since she turns red in the winter... all the white is bizzare


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

White belly, under tail, chest is the pic above....


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Get some clear pics of her in good lighting we can tell you a lot about her color.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Sorry months later.... regular computer cell phone was a pain


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Bridgertrot said:


> Isn't At just brown and pangare is something different (gene wise)? I may be wrong haha
> 
> Do you have any photos of your filly?
> 
> This horse has pangare


Funny you should pick that picture, Bridgertrot. I couldn't see it at first on my computer, but whenever I think of pangare, that particular horse is always the first one on my mind.

Betcha can't guess why. :lol:


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

CaliforniaDreaming said:


> Funny you should pick that picture, Bridgertrot. I couldn't see it at first on my computer, but whenever I think of pangare, that particular horse is always the first one on my mind.
> 
> Betcha can't guess why. :lol:


Haha me too, which is why I posted it! :lol:

I saw this horse which has similar "armpit" markings as yours. Does your horse have rabicano? Almost looks as if she does. Not sure if it's rabicano or sabino causing it exactly.


















Although his is more spread out, maybe perhaps the OP horse is just some "trauma" from a breast collar? I dunno. lol


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## Nell J (Nov 28, 2013)

Rabicano, yes....  I didn't know robicano could cause that... she doesn't have much for white hairson her body.... tthanks


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Really interesting pics and informative thread :O


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Nell.. bay but in the pic of her saddled in the stall she almost looks buckskin/dun 
PBR .. that dun colt is stunning.


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