# I need HELP >.<



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Today was a very frustrating/infuriating day. My mare has ALWAYS been terrified of leaving her paddock at our last home. I found many excuses for her behavior about her past, about her fear issues, then I settled that it was because there were too many scary things outside that barn. I moved to a new house where I could keep her and there is nothing around besides grass, grass and more grass. The only potentially scary thing is the dumpster for the manure. She has her friend, a pony, living with us. With a great deal of work she is no longer herd bound. I walked him out in circles where she could and couldn't see him for periods of time progressively making the time she couldn't see him longer until she just didn't care anymore. I can now take the pony out for hours on hikes without any fuss from her.

Now when we first moved to our new house I said "I am nipping this no leaving the paddock thing in the bud!" The fourth day she was in I marched her giant patooty outside her paddock, past the dumpster and found a good place to let her graze. She calmly walked out, calmly ate grass and then coming back she got a little nervous of the dumpster (odd because this time I was between her and the dumpster) but we walked past it back and forth about 10 times until it no longer phased her.

Then the past almost 3 weeks the bugs have been SO completely miserable I've only been able to put her out long enough to do her stall, or not at all. She has a serious allergy to bug bites and it's been awful lately so I didn't want to risk letting her out much. But we practiced all our basic ground work techniques for a few minutes every day. Yielding her hind end, front end, backing up, leading and halting in turn with me, turning to and away from me without ever invading my space. She has been doing incredibly well with all these skills. She has learned to put her head down with just a tiny amount of pressure on her halter, even when we are walking by a scary object she'll put her head to the ground.

Well today was pretty cool and there weren't too many bugs so I decided today would be a good day to venture out again. We practiced all our ground work skills until she was very light, as usual. I opened the gate and she backed violently away from it to the end of the lead rope before I managed to stop her backing. I immediately made her lunge in a tight trot around me until I got lip-licking. I marched her toward the gate BOOM she's backing up again!! So I do what a number of trainers had told me and backed her up more. I backed her until she was all the way at the other end of the paddock. And that's where we stayed for a good 20 minutes. She would NOT move any forward steps AT ALL. I was ****ed at this point and was yielding her hind and front end quite aggressively. She was spinning till she was dizzy - but STILL wouldn't take a step forward. I decided forward wasn't the way to go, so I zig-zagged her accross her paddock, whenever she stopped I changed direction but still walking a tiny bit toward the gate. This took about 30 minutes of me getting more and more furious and repeated yielding practices. Finally she got to the gate opening. At this point I was exhausted and furious and I was willing to take ANYTHING she'd give me. So I went as far as the rope would reach and stood there holding all my strength on the rope. I just waited. After about 5 whole minutes she took 1 step forward. I let her eat some grass and while eating she meandered a few more steps out of her paddock. She got the front half of her body out of the paddock and then started to graze backwards so I decided to just call that a day. 
I turned to walk her back to her paddock and she lunged past me scared of something, god knows what. I turned her around and marched her back to where we were grazing I was NOT going to let it end on that note! She went back, ate some more and we turned back more slowly this time I made her face the wall that she was now suddenly afraid of for no reason. We looked at it, walked by it, turned and walked by it in both directions a few times - then went back home. 

I'm exhausted, furious and my back is killing me.

I have asked for help from a number of trainers and had a few come to help me. One was a big cowboy who tried forcing her out and had essentially the same story as what I just posted. Another tried bribing her out with grain, which she just didn't care about. Others tried all the same ground work, repetition - no go. People have suggested just about everything to me but NOTHING has worked. What do I do? 
Do I just keep doing what I did today pushing a little further each time? 
Clearly trucking her to a trainer wouldn't work as this issue restarted every time she moves. And clearly no trainers in my area seem to know how to fix this. -.-' 

I'm going to ask a woman who delivers my hay who worked with draft horses to see if she has any ideas. I'm out of options. I'm at the point where this horse will just be a complete pasture ornament, because I KNOW she'd never be able to find another home, not that I'd want to give her up anyway regardless of whether or not she can leave her paddock.

I kept reminded her ALL day today the only reason she wasn't on a truck to auctions was because she's SO freaking pretty!


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I told you a long time ago what I would do with her but you rejected 50 years of having it do wonders for every horse I have ever trained. 

I suggested tying her out until she got relaxed and happy. I would not even bother training a horse that I have not already taught to be patient and non-reactive. It would be a HUGE waste of my time and I would get little done with them, kind of like you are not getting done now.

They do a far better job of teaching themselves than anything we can do with them.

So, do whatever YOU think will work. I would just ask: "How's it working?"

Cherie


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Like I said last time, I don't have a single thing I could tie her to that she won't kill herself on anywhere I can get her too. The only trees on my property are a good walk outside of her paddock and I have NO other thing to tie her to. I don't have the money to buy those fancy patience poles. Also, she ties fine. I can tie her to the spots I tie her and she's fine, she'll stay there as long as I want. She doesn't paw or pull or fuss. So what would be the point of tying her to anything else? If she ever felt truly threatened or afraid, if she were tied and couldn't get away I'm SURE she'd kill herself before giving in. I know her. 

Perhaps for her previous herd bound issue it could have worked, tying her away from her friend, but she no longer cares where the pony is. So tying her somewhere would just result in her standing for hours, getting eatten by bugs and causing her allergic reaction to flare up worse than ever. To be tied and not be able to get away from the bugs eating her. And no matter how much I bug spray her the flies out now just don't care.

I'd love any suggestion that may help though - It took me a long time and a lot of thinking to decide tying her out for multiple days was a BAD idea for my horse. Maybe it would work for other horses or horses who need to learn to tie, but it just isn't going to do anything productive for her. But I appreciate your suggestion - and I wish it would be as simple as tying her to a tree for hours then *poof* she's a perfect horse.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Do you have a pasture you can put her in? I would put her out of the barn and out of the paddock permanently. 

Also, if she is afraid to go beyond her normal boundaries, and she is attached to her pony, could you use both of those thought processes together? Could you take her and the pony out for a nice stroll together? It might not be a total training victory, but it would be a step in the right direction if it worked.


----------



## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

Why didn't you turn her around and just back her out the gate since she was willing to go backwards?


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh spur! I forgot to mention, yes I tried that. I backed her very aggressively toward the gate and watched her keep trying to face the gate and she couldn't tell whether she was more afraid of me or the gate - I saw the explosion about to happen. She has NEVER reared or acted aggressively - I nipped that in the bud the first few days I had her. But I could see her thinking about it because she was feeling so trapped, so I quickly started lunging her around me, tightly and trying to back her again - rinse and repeat.


Holy CRAP Celeste! I feel like a moron! We couldn't do that at the rescue because none of the horses were sound or sane enough to get out of her way if she were to explode or something - didn't want two crazed broken horses. So I had ruled that option out and forgot I had it again now that we've moved!!! I will try to see if my fiance can lead the pony or get my friend who's pretty decent with horses. I could just hug you right now!!!!! 
You're right, it's not a big victory, but I think once she starts venturing out and seeing that the world isn't filled with horse-eating monsters that she won't need the confidence of her pony. But she needs to get out to see that.  Oh thank you!!


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

My mare can be pretty psycho. I like to trail ride. If I have someone to ride another horse (preferably her favorite stable mate), she is so much better. I have ridden her off alone, but she loves the company.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I know you do not want to listen, but tying her out as far away from her comfort zone as possible would do more than all of the fighting and fussing with her that you can do. It does MUCH MORE than help horses that are herd-bound. It is essential for any horse to change from 'reactive' to a thinking and 'responsive' horse.

I have watched some people fight their spooky and reactive horses for years and once they finally listened to me and tied them out until they got quiet and relaxed (and happy). They were amazed that they turned into different horses almost overnight. 

As long as you are dealing with a reactive horse, you are just spinning your wheels. A reactive horse is not learning much and it is literally 'one step forward and two steps back'.

She needs to get 'settled' and comfortable away from her comfort zone. Right now, she has you trained. It will stay that way until you figure out that she must learn that the world beyond her comfort zone is not going to kill her.

If you have to, MAKE place to safely tie her. Sink two old telephone poles in the ground and stretch a nylon lariat rope high between them. Find a neighbor with a tree that will let you tie a rope from a tree limb. Put a high tie ring on the outside wall of a distant outbuilding. There is a place somewhere that will hold her until she figures out she should stop, relax and think. She is not unique. She is not going to be the only horse that cannot be tied up for a full day.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Cherie, honestly at this point I would try it. But she physically will not go beyond her comfort zone. There is no moving her beyond that. 
Also I'm renting, so digging telephone poles into the ground I'm fairly sure isn't allowed on our lease. I have a tree I could tie her to, but there's no way to get her to the tree. 
As of right now I can tie her to the O ring screwed into the side of the barn and she will stand there quietly for as long as I leave her there. I have never left her there unsupervised, but I've done it while I was in the barn fussing. I've never tied her to anything for more than an hour or so, because there's no need for her to stand there all that time. Her previous owner had one of those posts that's mad out of two short logs and one really long log laid on top of it. He had tied her up there for days at a time due to different situations. She does all that perfectly. 
But she won't walk out to any trees I could tie her to. There's no place she's uncomfortable where I can both get her to and tie her up to. I wish it were that easy.


Celeste- you're right, I've always known that was a good way to teach new or nervous horses trails and the first day I had this mare we used a pony to get her out of her paddock, but coming back she had nearly run her over because a truck fired. So I couldn't do that anymore. But my pony a friend could lead and just be cautious to be well out of her way if needed. Thank you!


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You do not even have her broke to lead. Can you get someone to haze her from behind until you get her to a good place? I think you may need to start there anyway if she is not better broke to lead that this.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I just wanted to add... Cherie, I think you need to work on the way you word things. If you want someone to listen to you and honestly consider your opinions you should offer them as ideas or options that, in your experience, have worked. 
But inferring that they're stupid or incapable or a bad horse person, just because they don't use your methods isn't a great way to make someone _want_ to do what you suggest. Luckily I can filter through your insults and find the true suggestion underneath, then I think it over and decide whether it would or wouldn't work in my situation. But I have to say, all the insults don't make me want to consider you're ideas very much.
I'm referring specifically to things like "Right now, she has you trained. It will stay that way until you figure out that she must learn..." She has not got me trained, she's horrified, and I have never let her fear stop her. Regardless of if she's scared or falling apart inside I keep at her until _she does what I say_. In that there is NO part where SHE has ME trained. She's scared, she needs to get over it. I need to figure out how to get her out of it. Which is _exactly_ what I was asking for suggestions on how to do, so don't act like I don't know that, that's what I'm asking for. 

You have very good ideas and methods, but you make it so hard for people to want to try them because you attack us first. 

Things like "I told you a long time ago what I would do with her but you rejected" and "
So, do whatever YOU think will work. I would just ask: 'How's it working?'"
Those are attacks that make people close their mind to you're very good suggestions. You have a GREAT deal of experience and are VERY knowledgeable on how to handle/train horses. I just wish your messages could come through, but it's hard to filter out the attacks.

Sorry if that was out of bounds, I just see that as an ongoing thing in many of your posts. I hope you take that constructively - not as a personal attack, as that's not how it's meant.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Cherie, she is broke to lead, she will lead all around where ever I ask her, the moment I ask her. It has taken us a GREAT deal of time but she will now lead safely and well. She is SCARED of leaving, no matter how broke to lead they are if they're scared of something they're not going to walk towards it without work and patience. If a horse is afraid of a tarp, being broke to lead isn't going to make them walk over it, NO desensitizing them to the tarp is going to make them walk over it.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I beg to differ. She is not properly broke to lead. You have let leading be optional. She is broke to follow when she wants to. 

Leading should never be optional -- or -- only when you are going where a horse wants to any way.

Sorry -- she is NOT broke to lead. Heaven forbid that you ever have to quickly get her out of harm's way, like an approaching fire.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I repeat... She goes Wherever I want, Whenever I want, regardless of what she's doing - if there's a big freaking pile of apples that she's eating she will leave it. She leads _where I tell her_. She is SCARED of the outside. Just like most horses start out scared of a tarp. But I can't desensitize her to the whole world the way you desensitize a horse to a tarp. AGAIN - if they're afraid of something, no matter how well broke to lead they are they aren't going to go to it without at least a fight or a fussing. 
You're making inferences from something you haven't even seen or really know about based on the fact she won't go outside her gate. She leads well, she doesn't lead well into something scary. She needs to learn how to handle scary situations. Maybe your idea would work, but I'm going to try Celeste's idea first, as it's less horrific than violently chasing my horse out her gate - running her to a tree- tying her to it- and _praying_ she doesn't rip her head off trying to get away. 

And again, you lead with an attack - you put a person's defenses up making them NOT want to listen or understand. Try leading with something positive sometime and see where it gets you 

How - in your way would you make this horse be broke to lead? Is your only suggestion that I chase her out to a tree and tie her to it? If me and whoever was helping me didn't get killed doing that I'd be amazed if my horse lived through it. She is afraid, building her confidence is a more ideal path than violently making her face the horrors she seems to think there are, until she gives up all hope to ever have any sense of safety again in her life.

What ELSE would you suggest? Do you have ANY other ideas or suggestions?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

No, No, No! She is not as scared as she has you trained. 

I give up.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wonder if you made the decision to go out that gate hers. If you started feeding that pony on the other side of that gate, and it looked like she was missing out on the party happenind out there, on the other side of the OPEN gate, I bet eventually she'd choose to walk herself right through it, on her own.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

If she's not scared - then what? Why won't she leave? Are you now you're saying I can't tell a frightened horse from a naughty horse? If she simple doesn't want to leave, why not? She gets to eat grass out there and has to work in her paddock Why wouldn't she want to leave if not fear? You haven't seen her, but when she gets close to the gate her eyes are as wide as they get, her breathing is heavy and loud, she huffs and puffs and makes herself huge and backs away as fast as she can manage. If that's not a scared horse I don't know what is. She is horrified.

Do you have any other suggestions? I'm not above my horse getting their butt kicked for being bad, in fact she did get kicked more than a few times during that episode of hers today. She was listening and yielding every inch of her, spinning in circles so tight she nearly fell over. If that's not a responsive well trained horse I don't know what is. She did _everything_ I asked despite being horrified. Except walking out the gate. She would yield her everything, she would lunge, she would back and turn and walk straight, but not through the gate. She's Afraid. 

Unless you have a better suggestion that is actually possible without killing anyone - I'll go with Celeste's Idea.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiny, maybe, I don't think so though, as I do often graze the pony there (easier than mowing ). She will hang out on the other side of the fence and watch him graze but won't go out. But I haven't tried doing it while the pony is there, only going out alone. I think she will go out if the pony is there, but I think because she feels safe with him. Unfortunately I don't know how to make her feel that safe with me too. I wish I did. 

I have tried letting her out with just a long lunge line on and no force, me just sitting somewhere on the other side of the gate and her inside. She'll normally go as far as the lunge line lets her and stay there. But again didn't try it with the pony there to make her feel safe.

That's a very good idea though - it worked at our previous home I could open the gate to the next paddock over (multiple connecting paddocks) and I would just go eat or read in the other one. She would come in to be with me, then with any noise or breeze she'd gallop back to her stall, then meander her way back to me.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

She has simply talked herself into being silly. You have gone along with it and reinforced that she should be fearful

She needs a strong leader that she has respect for and she would follow you off of a cliff if you were that person.

You have reinforced and played into her every little whim and fear. She will only get worse and worse. I think you are seeing that now.

With respect comes trust and obedience. She has zero respect for you.

I NEVER said to 'chase' her. I said a second person may have to haze her since she does not respect you or a halter enough to go where you want her to go.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with Celeste's idea. I think letting her and the pony spend time in a paddock is good. I am not sure that I would want to tie a horse that sounds as intense on this issue as your mare is. I just think she could learn that if she leans back hard enough, long enough and fast enough that she can break her halter or lead rope. Which is not something you necessarily need. I think an element that might be at play is worry. I have a gelding that for some weird reason gets worried in the barn. Our barn is older and a bit narrow. The barn connects to the garage. If I get worried about it and think "oh no we are going to walk through the barn" he is much worse. If I think "stop being an idiot its the barn get over it" then he is better. The thing is that he is most nervous when he is looking into the garage, he turns around and see the grain and is like "Oh Snacks!". So, I tend to ignore him. 

It almost sounds like your horse lacks confidence. She is buddy bonded, worries about being alone and seems a bit well flighty. I have a gelding thats the same way. It just means that I have to be extra confident. The real key might be convincing her and finding a way to build her confidence. Like, instead of saying today we are walking past the dumpster. Its today we are standing next to our stall. Next week we will stand three feet farther from our stall. 

On an unrelated note, I believe you moved to MA recently and with the bugs being bad I would make sure your horses are vaccinated (I know they probably are) but the state is having a bit of a EEE and West Nile issue.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok - I'm going to, yet again, ignore the slighted insults, and carry on. How, aside from tying to a tree. Would _you_ go about teaching a horse that you are a strong leader. And how have I played into her whim? I have never EVER let her get away with not going through the gate when I ask. She has ALWAYS gotten as far as I have asked of her in the end. I have NEVER let her win any battle, so I don't know how I reinforced her fear - but I'd love to be told! I'd love to know how I can be a better leader for my horse! Step by step method would be great.

As for chasing vs. hazing. When she first moved to our new house she was afraid of her stall and wouldn't go in. I lead her to it and tried to make her go through. After hours of doing everything I described in my OP she still wouldn't go in. But I wasn't going to let her win, I had my fiance go into her stall and stand behind her stall door and hold her lead rope as strong as he could. I went out - her whole body was tense, her tail was tucked a good 6 inches into her bum, she was trembling all over - but I wasn't going to let her win. I pushed her and commanded "walk on", she just trembled and was as hard as a rock and soaked in sweat from me working her butt off. But she was afraid of her stall. Yes you're right, she does talk herself into being afraid. But how am I to show her there's nothing to fear if she won't trust me? How am I to build her trust? I finally had to whack her butt with another rope. Nothing. She just trembled, couldn't get away, couldn't go forward. I continued whacking her and pushing her until she finally just jumped into her stall. I slammed the door shut behind her and left her in for 2 days. Now she loves her stall. What MORE can I do than that?!

If I were to try the same approach, out in the open, where there was no stall door to protect my fiance (who is NOT a horse person) she would have killed one of us. What more can I do? Please tell me what better I can do? I have got her yielding to every pressure I ever apply at the slightest amount. I don't even need to touch her I just step into her space and wiggle my fingers and she's moving away. What more can I do? Please tell me what to do and how I want to know. But trying to 'haze' her out to a tree will get us killed.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Can you take the paddock fence down? 
Then there would be no paddock.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Rookie- thanks for the vote of confidence, you're right, going into it with the right attitude is important. Even if I'm acting confident I was certainly thinking "maybe I shouldn't try today" "it's not going to end well" and half way through "I should give up but I can't" and allll those thoughts that I'm sure she was picking up on no matter how hard I tried to push them down.

You're right she is NOT confident at all, she is definitely not alpha mare even in her herd of 1. I'm trying so hard to be the confident handler she needs, but I just don't know how to do better than what I have been. None of the trainers I hired really did either.
You're right about her learning she could break her halters, I've also known a horse who broke his neck being hard tied, so I'm extra wary. 

As soon as I have someone who can handle my pony outside (he's fine, I just need someone who can get him out of the way if my mare does something) I'm going to try that. It won't hurt 
You're right too about breaking it into small bits. Today we got most of her out the gate, next time I'm hoping to get her fully out the gate. The next time to the dumpster, next past it, and so on.


----------



## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

PunksTank, I'm just wondering if you have access to portable corral panels? If you had say 140 or 150 running feet worth you could put a corral at her gate, let her move her in to that on her own; then when she's comfortable move the corral a few feet further away and in a different location, etc. The reason I am suggesting this is that she almost sounds like she's got the equine equivalent of human agoraphobia. (And I don't think anyone will dispute this) She evidently has a very small comfort zone; so this may be a way to start increasing it without risk of life and limb to all involved.

I think it was Celeste that suggested following of the pony - also a good way to kick start ventures into the world.

Finally, don't give up. You have to extinquish this behaviour of hers and replace it with one you want. That takes persistence and patience in great great doses. Behaviours and habits (no matter what their basis) can be incredibly resilient (just ask someone who's trying to quit smoking or lose weight) but they can eventually be squashed. May be you have to go through this performance another 20 times and come the 21st time she's good to go. 

Take care and good luck.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Celeste, We're renting so I don't think so. But where was that line of thought going? Out front is a busy road that I'd be afraid of. I'd also be afraid because the neighbors have a stallion. If she did decide to venture out xD If I owned the property it might have been a good idea to just fence the whole property with one big fence you're right, that would have been a great idea.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I remember an older horseman that was a mentor to me when I was young saying that once a horse does something 20 times, they will do it well.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Celeste, We're renting so I don't think so. But where was that line of thought going? Out front is a busy road that I'd be afraid of. I'd also be afraid because the neighbors have a stallion. If she did decide to venture out xD If I owned the property it might have been a good idea to just fence the whole property with one big fence you're right, that would have been a great idea.


Well I was hoping that the paddock led out into a big pasture.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks that's encouraging. No I don't have portable panels, but there's also no room to really put them the way it's designed is:
The barn is a big square, her paddock is connected to the side of the barn (indoor/outdoor) and then there's a paddock behind hers, which I wanted to open up to make her one really big one but there are black walnut trees in there, so that paddock's off limits. Then there's two more paddocks paralel to the one behind hers, so her gate is right between the back of the barn and the pony's paddock which is kitty-corner to her paddock. So it's a fairly thin path. Plenty wide for a dumpster and a hay truck, but there's also a ledge for the dumpster, so not a place I could put a corral. xD Sorry for the novel!


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Celeste - I wish!! That'd be perfect! it does lead out to a hay field - not mine but the owners don't mind me walking my pony around the edge. I couldn't ever let her just be loose out there though, and there are too many dangerous things like barbed wire fences and cars and tractors between us and them.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Ok. Here's the plan. First you need to win the lottery. Then, buy a huge ranch with giant fields. No paddocks. 

Oh, and don't forget to send a few million my way.........


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Haha ok! Deal  When I do win the lottery I'm going to make the horse rescue/therapy barn I've always dreamed of  I've got the rescue half now but we're broke and have to hold the barn up with 10x2x4s in the winter xD


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Check out 'send though exercises'. Clinton Anderson & others have some that may help you.

I don't think Cherie was insulting at all but maybe our perceptions are different.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Did you see that I wrote "feed the horses" on the other side of that paddock gate? regularly , for a bit. she don't come, she dont' eat.

Did you use an approach and retreat type of ground work to get her toward the thing that she fears. Just as if you were trying to load her in a trailer.

I think working on sending her places will be a good excersize. once you are good at sending her places, through doors and between narrow spaces, start sending her in a circle "near" the gate. She'll rush past that area, but it doesn't matter. after going by it, both directions, she will become comfortable and accepting. then move the circle closer.

When she can go past the circle without speeding up start asking her to stand near it and she can rest there. Let her leave if she needs to, and , in fact, send her away from the gate, too. But you just work on getting closer and closer, while allowing retreat as an option when the pressure gets to the point where she is going to make the decisinon to flee, YOU send her away from the gate first. Then back, then away, always BEFORE she makes the decision to flee.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Those are both great ideas!

I used the 'sending' method only briefly and not very well, I just used it to teach her to move away from me when I was first teaching her to ground drive. I didn't even think of that.

Yes I typically use the approach + retreat method, in every other case it worked, but in this case 1 step forward was met with 2 steps back. I will practice the sending methods!


----------



## livelovelaughride (Sep 13, 2011)

Another poster recently mentioned blindfolding a horse (in this case, it was to cross a stream). Once blindfolded, the horse led. Huh. Very interesting.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Hi punks, 
Have you considered clicker training or some of those space game type things that parelli does? I just ask because I don't think you want to use force as she is already having a fear response. Even if its not a fear response you can rewire it to a positive response. If she is bit of low confidence horse than clicker training could give her a positive reason to approach new things and give her a confidence boost.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

livelaugh- Yes I have heard of that, I thought about it a long time ago, I tried just putting a shirt over her eyes, just draped, and she FROZE she went tense and heavy breathing in seconds. So we spent some time learning about things covering her eyes and not to be nervous, but I don't think she'd ever lead in one. But I've heard it works wonders for others!

Rookie- I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yes, I've been clicker training my pony. I started clicker trainer her, my mare, but have been having some issues. She doesn't seem to connect the click (i use a smooch noise) to the treat, just my outreached hand. So she isn't getting the immediate bridge she needs. So I worked for a while teaching her to turn her head away even when my hand with treats in it is outreached. So she's sort of figured that out. But she also has this nasty habit of engulfing my whole hand in her mouth and sucking the carrots out. She has NEVER bit, but I want her to be more gentle about taking the treats, I've felt teeth before, but never made contact if you know what I mean. So I know it'd just be a matter of time before she mistook my fingers with carrots. How can I teach her to take treats more gently? And I tried having her touch her target outside at liberty, which she thought was fun for all of 5 minutes before she realized she could just look down and there was grass just as good as the treats I had. Do I need better treats? If so what? Or should I try her target training on lead outside so she doesn't just graze? Any suggestions would be hugely appreciated.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Hi, 
I think it might be a good idea to switch treats/food rewards. Unless she has a metabolic issue and you are worried about sugar consumption. I just say that because I don't care for carrots for the exact reason you have mentioned they look to much like fingers. I know horses know the difference between one and the other, but even great white's take test bites on surfers. With a grabby patty I would either try to find a small bowl that you could have the treat in that. There might be a way to not reward her when she is grabby Ie. she puts to much of her mouth on you then you snatch your hand and food away. She only gets the reward when she takes it nicely. Still, that could be dangerous and I would be more inclined to use the bowl. 

I would not let her graze when you are working. Even though you are doing positive reinforcement she still needs to focus and that means no grazing. My gelding tried to do this too and I just pulled his head up and redirected him with the food reward. It was not a big dramatic thing but it is a sign of disrespect. I would not work a horse at liberty until they were 100% on the lead rope. 

I think she is confused and not associating the sound with the food. You may not have loaded the sound. I would do a few session where you just put the reward in your hand and then make the sound as she has her mouth on it. I looked a little crazy when I first loaded my word. Standing out in the barn feeding my horse small pieces of horse treat saying "yes, yes, yes, yes", every time he got a piece in his mouth. If your horse is not getting one thing break it down to an even smaller question.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That's a great idea! Maybe I can get her a little plastic tea cup, big enough to get her giant muzzle in, but one I could hold the handle of! 
I tried doing what you said about not rewarding the grabbiness but I got stuck in this catch 22, where if I grabbed the food away she got more anxious about it and tried harder to get it next time. Or I then would have clicked but not treated because she was grabby.
So I think I'll use the cup idea!

I tried loading the treat, but maybe I didn't spend enough time on it. Instead of just doing it everytime I fed her I waited for her to turn her head away, then click/treated. So that she'd learn that being grabby wouldn't get her food. I only did that for 3 5 minute sessions, she seemed to get the turning her head away thing but I'm not sure if she connected the click yet.. So I'll try working on it more.  

Yes, when we get back to that point I'll try on lead, I guess it was asking alot for her not to graze without a lead to stop her. 

Thanks so much for all your help!


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

When my horses get grabby for treats when we "play the game"(ct), I close my hand and turn it over and wait 1-2 seconds, then turn my fist over. If they get grabby, I turn over again. If calm, I open my fingers. I have found they can't really bite my hand when it's closed and they quickly calm down and take the treats nicely. My 3 yo TB has to be reminded at the beginning of most sessions bc she gets so excited and she is still I mouthy baby. 

I also want to share with you that I have been playing ct with 4 horses and one donkey since July and I about gave up on the Donk. She just didn't seem interested after a while. Then I watched "the poisoned cue" by Kurland and decided I had done some things wrong with her so we started again. I changed the target, the reward, and charged it up again. She responded beautifully ! She likes the pellet feed I got, the new target and she loves to play now. 

Plus I learned that with all the equines, you need to vary your target behaviors, standing still with yielding hind quarters for example. You probably knew that tho! I've read your posts about ct and been very encouraged!

Anyway, I think ct is a great way to help with fear, confidence and attitude issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Oh, and if it's not that the horse is grabby as you move the treat, but bares teeth as they are eating the treat to scrape it off your palm, I just drop my hand. You lose the treat but the horse quickly understands and won't do it again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

I know you have tried a lot, but pay attention to your body language. Open your chest, walk purposefully, eyes up, and don't look at her when she stops, just keep going about what you were going to do. Don't pat or comfort her when she is scared.

It sounds like you're on the right track, I also would not "tie out" this type of horse. I think there are some you can, and some who WILL kill themselves, and I think your gut is right (based your description) that she is the latter. I have one too, and while she had a similar issue as a younger, it was not impossible to solve. It took a lot of learning and self-awareness on my part.

Where are you located? Maybe one of us is close to you and can come out and help!


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

This is going to make me sound horrible .. But I went through this same situation with drifter pretty much. And I think I know what Cherie was trying to get across..

Here's my example:
When I first started working with him, drifter was a total nut job. He was reactive and incredibly explosive. He would panic in situations to where he almost killed himself. He was starved, has been knocked around and was an auction rescue so I took the same approach you did. I THOUGHT I was the one leading him and having him do his yields and such, but really what was happening was he was learning how to use explosions to get what he wanted. 

I had to change my whole attitude. There is no reason he cannot be a perfectly same equine citizen. NO reason. Before I would work him when he was scared with the mentality of "come in please I know your scared but you gotta do it..nothing's gonna hurt you..come on man...I'm getting frustrated!! Come on!!!"

I thought I was doing right, but I as still hesitant beause or his past. And he picked up on it. I changed my attitude and we've made leaps and bounds. Me making the excuse hes scared as I ask him to back for the 105th time... Has turned to me yelling (literally. Yelling. It ensures I have the correct body language) "quit being a freaking idiot!!!!!" and he snaps right to attention and does what is expected. We haven't had a meltdown in 4 months. 

Really square up and get attitude OP. don't let her take you for a ride


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Tiffany- That's a good idea, I'll spend some time with her on that, she has _never_ bared teeth or even really used them to scrape treats off, but she sucks my whole hand into her giant lips to suck the treat off, which sometimes my wiggly fingers meet with the edge of a tooth. I was thinking about using larger less sugary treats, maybe celery? If it's larger it'll be easier for her to get without my hand? Any other ideas on what a good food treat might be?

Neurotic - You're right, maybe my body language is lacking - I will try looking more directly, but I'm pretty sure I did. I'd be happy to have someone come help me, I'm in northern MA.

Drifter - I'm so glad I'm not the only one, my mare I got as a 7 year old untouched draft horse, she had bounced auction to auction for a while, settled at a trainers house who 'free to good home'd her to me. I should have known something was wrong, but I was up to the challenge (little did I know ). 
You're right, in the beginning when I first started dealing with this I babied her, stopping to pet her and reassure her, which never worked and I always ended up ending our sessions on me having to get mean to make her go to wherever I asked. So lately I've been skipping the snuggly section, as it seemed to only reinforce to her that she should be scared. So the last few times have been intense work, with no stopping. The first time it worked, but it may have just been the newness of it all she didn't know what to do or how to not do it, the second time though is what I posted about, she just wasn't going through the gate.

How did you specifically (what skills) work on getting your horse to do it? Aside from just being more assertive (I'm pretty sure I'm as assertive as I can get). There were more swear words in that session than regular words xD I was quite ticked and she knew it. But it wasn't enough.
Maybe my body language is lacking, next time, I'll try videoing it to watch later - I always find my mistakes when doing that. But first I am going to get her responding to touching the target outside and try working her with that as well. I will probably go about as normal then, just before I notice her looking to freeze up, I'll try a target. 
I think a lot of what happens is that she has trouble focusing on more than one thing (as most horses do), and she gets so consumed with whatever is scaring her that she has absolutely no focus on me. So I make her work to get her focus back, but only loose it again as soon as we get within range of the scary thing. The problem is, making her yield or lunge requires me repositioning myself, which looses us precious ground near the gate. I need something I can do to get her attention back on me while still being near the gate. 

Thank you all so much for your help.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

What kind if halter do you use? If you don't already have one get a rope halter with knots on the nose and toward the back of the cheeks I use a thin one similar to a parelli rope halter. Rope halters are amazing for teaching to yield to pressure my pally mare when she was younger used to explode to get her way, rear up and get pretty annoyed and she would freak out when tied.. A few downward tugs or me holding tight uncomfortable pressure changed her tune pretty fast. When she would balk I'd put constant pressure till she yielded then I would turn around walk squarely and if she balk again I'd put on the pressure till she would release it on her own. Rope halters put pressure behind the ears and on the nose it's uncomfortable. So if u can't tie her this a different way to do pressure release training. If she reared up I'd give her hard downward tugs till she came down then I would back her a bit turn around and go forward. No rewards for bad behavior only reward if she's gone where she was suppossed to go and a quick pat and a good girl is all he needs. Before I had a rope halter I'd be so annoyed and angry at her the horse feels that too and that can make it even less willing to do what you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have skipped some so apologise if I am repeating what someone else has said
Our gypsy will ride on the roads with articulated trucks going by, she will walk over tarps that are blowing around, she never flinches when people are shooting in the woods next to us. She wants to come into the barn at night, she gallops up to be caught but every night this week she has spooked at the garden wheelbarrow. She has a wheelbarrow parked in her stable when she's being mucked out, she stands right by one with no fear so why is the one in the garden any different. Well it isn't and I have no idea why she disliked it - but if it wasn't this it would be something else if she was in the mood. If I were to let her go she would race into the barn so its not because she wants to stay in the field
So what did I do?
I hit her really hard on Friday night. Shes not nervous, she's just being a pain and trying it on and she's way to bulky and powerful to allow it. Last night totally ignored the wheelbarrow and walked sweetly by my side.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I absolutely hate the excuse of "He/she is scared!'

I could not give two hoots if Satan himself is standing there, if I say 'go' then the horse will go. 

This horse is not frightened, you are, by acting as you do, allowing her to get away with frightening herself.

She has no respect for you and lack of respect leads to lack of trust. If she can back away from the gate then she can jolly well back across the field to the gate. If she threatened to rear then she would get a darn good wallop with a dressage whip across her back legs. Come to that, should she start to reverse away from the gate then she would have that whip wrapped around her backside faster than she could think about taking another step in reverse.

I do not beat my horses, but they do know that they have to behave. They have two choices, the easy way or the hard way. The hard way is with me getting cross or _very, very cross_ whereby they think I am the devil. Arm waving, a whack across the chest with the halter rope and generally scaring the crap out of them. Immediately they submit I continue as if nothing has happened. 

If a horse has trust it will follow you to hell and that trust comes from firm fair leadership. 

People say that it is body language but I think it is more mental attitude. I have a submissive body language in that I am very round shouldered due to having busted my shoulders and collarbones more than once yet I have no problem with any horse knowing that I intend to take charge.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Foxhunter is absolutely right. 

You are accepting crap from her so crap is what she is going to dish out to you.

Remember:

*The worst behavior that you accept is the very best behavior you have any right to expect.

*It is past due time that you step up and be the adult -- the boss -- the one in charge -- the leader.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok Fox and Cherie, you've told me all I've done wrong - what do I need to do? write me a checklist, or a how to, HOW do I make my horse trust me? HOW do I make her do something she's scared to do? Aside from what I've already been doing. I appreciate being told everything I've done wrong - but that doesn't help much when I don't know Any more options. So PLEASE educate me.

ETA: I have NEVER allowed her to not do something I've asked, she's NEVER done less than what I ask, the problem is that I have to fight for nearly an hour to get it Every Time. I have never let her 'get away' with anything, she has always been kept in check, usually it just requires a 'ahhh' growl for make her straighten out. But in the case of leaving her paddock that obviously won't work, nor will making her work for hours or constant pressure forcing her forward, All that only works to make her do what I ask after a long time. But I have NEVER let her get away with anything - any disrespect is met with a LOT of work.


----------



## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

She's said it before time and time again. 

Tie her away from the herd and let her fight it out herself until she is relaxed.
no place to tie? Make a spot. Don't have materials? Ask a neighbor to use a branch.

edit:
No need to get snippy at them either.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You ought to read my response to that - There is no getting this horse to a tree I could tie her to - she expect me to chase the horse out to a tree and have me and whoever's chasing her NOT to be killed. She knows how to tie, and when she gets to a 'new' place out of her comfort zone she is comfortable in it in minutes the problem is getting her there. Do I beat her over there? Do I make her work until she goes over there? Do I bribe her over there? I've had myself and trainers try ALL those options. So PLEASE tell me what I else I can do?

Like Celeste and the others did - providing Positive, Constructive options on how to fix a situation, rather than just saying 'you did it all wrong', without reasoning. I did _everything_ physically possible outside of getting killed. As for what fox said, yes she has gotten seriously smacked with a dressage whip when I first got her and she threatened to paw. She WOULD get seriously punished for trying to rear. I didn't have a whip in my hand and leaving to get one wasn't an option. I also don't think I could have gotten behind her fast enough to whack her to make her go forward again.

I'm not trying to 'get snippy' but I'm getting sick of 'you did it all wrong, you did it wrong' but NO actual possible suggestion on how to fix it. Telling someone they did something wrong only tells them what not to do in the future. 

I repeat, the problem isn't that the horse isn't trained, it's that she's not trained well enough to pay attention to me when she's scared, and I don't know how to make her put her attention back on me. I would be thrilled if someone had a suggestion, that wouldn't get me killed.


----------



## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

I think Foxhunter was pretty specific with what she'd do with the horse. They're telling you, you're just not hearing it.

I'm also a little concerned with this mare's turnout situation. It sounds to me like she got maybe a few minutes here and there for three weeks. You had trouble getting her in her stall, so you forced her in and then left her for two days. She has lots of pent up energy, and you come at her with lots of emotion and frustration. That's pretty much a textbook recipe for disaster.


----------



## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes stuff with horses isnt always unicorns and puppy dogs. 

And besides... it always takes two to tango. I wonder who threw the gauntlet first, hm? Seems more like what draftxdressage said, and you're just not wanting to listen. Don't take your frustrations out on someone who is genuinely giving you advice that has worked, for various horses and owners. Just because your methods dont doesn't mean you have to attack others for offering an alternative.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Peppy- yes I have used a rope halter on her, that's how I originally got her used to giving to pressure - then I had to completely reteach her how to give to pressure in a flat halter. 
When I had the episode of her not going into her stall I tried using the rope halter again. She ignored it just as well as she ignored her regular halter. When I just stood and applied a moderate amount of pressure on the rope halter - to wait her out- she wouldn't budge. After a while she started to get woozy, I finally had to let go when her knees buckled and she fell down. As soon as she got up again (which was _right_ as soon as I softened the pressure) then I made her work again right away. So I don't think the rope halter would do it either, but I will give it a try - maybe she has more respect for it now? It's even got a twisted piece over her poll - so I don't think it could get any more intense. 

But thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have another idea. Can you modify the paddock so that it has a larger gate? If the gate were wide open, it might not be so scary.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Draft, like I said I'd would try the whip but I don't think I could get behind her fast enough to stop the backing. She runs backwards so fast I can barely stop her, and if I did get behind her enough to hit her hind end she'd just do what she was doing, lunging or yielding. Not sure how much more that would help, but I'll try it if all the less peaceable options don't work.

Draft, she was in for the first 2 days(over a month ago), since then she's been out at least 4 hours everday, but she mostly spends the time she has out in her stall by choice because she's so horribly allergic to bugs. 

Deschutes- I'm happy to try any method people try (outside of blatant abuse), which is why I came to the forum. But Cherie and I had a separate conversation previously about tying my mare out. I have come to the conclusion someone would die if I were to try what she wants me to do, and many of the trainers I've worked with agree tying out this horse will not help, only get someone hurt. 
I'm not opposed to trying again with a dressage whip in hand. But I'd also like to try some of the other paths suggested that are less aggressive, if those don't work I'll have to settle for that. 

I came here looking for help - a large number of people have suggested some very good ideas, I'll try them. I didn't come here for people to criticize because I was looking for help and don't want to try their method first. I'd always rather try for the path of least resistance.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Celeste, that's a great idea! She doesn't like narrow paths, she has a scar on her shoulder, she may have got hung up on something before. At our last house she would always lunge through the tight gates - we worked on that for a long time before she would walk calmly through them. But here the gate is really, really wide (about 6 feet wide). 

I will try your other idea though, I'm going to tie my pony up to the side of the barn outside her gate (as no one seems to be able to help me and handle him while I work with her). I think she'll go out if she sees him out there, the first time I got her out (all the way) was the same day I put the pony in the far paddock, so she may have seen him and realized it was safe. Or maybe I was just more confident last time. I don't know we'll see!


----------



## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Draft, she was in for the first 2 days(over a month ago), since then she's been out at least 4 hours everday, but she mostly spends the time she has out in her stall by choice because she's so horribly allergic to bugs.


I'm having trouble reconciling that ^ with what you wrote on the OP:



> Then the past almost 3 weeks the bugs have been SO completely miserable I've only been able to put her out long enough to do her stall, or not at all.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok well I hope you figure it out. I'm sure it's frustrating if you lived close to me I'd come over and try to help you. You sound like your trying hard there must be something to get her out of there to get her out of the paddock. If she balks and doesn't move try putting her off balance and try not to anticipate her balking that may help its hard to say what to do exactly when I'm not there in person I suggest using two people at least to practice taking her out. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Draft, I put her out while I do her stall - and force her out the door and don't let her in again. The door is open the entire time I'm home, but she hides inside because the bugs are so miserable. Despite the fly spray and swat slathered on her belly (and now she has a mix of Prep H, antibiotic cream, and Desitin slathered on her belly because it got so bad). She lays down and rubs her belly into the ground causing her to get all cut up and swollen. I've tried everything for it and done anything everyone on the forum and my vet has suggested, but not much seems to make the bugs actually stay off her. Even one bug bite sends her rolling and scratching. There have been a couple days, when I am at work all day that I don't let her out, just because by the time I'm home the bugs are just too nasty, but that's been a total of 3 days in the past 4 weeks.

Do you have any ideas how I can make can keep the bugs off her? I've spent some time working on her lunging skills and line driving skills to help her burn of any extra energy, but I'm not a fan of doing excessive lunge work. Any other ideas on how to help her burn some energy? (I had a thread about that too )


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Peppy I just tried her again in her rope halter and I'm thinking the problem is in the knots, the nose knots are really tiny on mine and the ear band is twisted, it's all made of really thin rope, so it's very harsh but not very clear. So I'm going to look for a more traditional one. That was the only one my tack shop had at that time.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah you know that may be true it's not putting pressure in the right places definitely worth trying another 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I recently have been having problems with my mare. I haven't read all the replies but I'll just contribute. 

We've moved to a new place and she is really jumpy, spinny etc. She's not refusing to go like yours is but she hasn't been good. She was "afraid". But like you noted earlier - these fears are completely irrational. The reason she is afraid is because you're not being the leader - I was completely the same. Horses follow their leaders anywhere, regardless of how terrified they are. They are built to be part of a herd. So you have to be the leader, right now you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be having this problem. Likely, the pony is the leader. I'd be firm and I'd always "win" battles but the fact that you are fighting the battles means you're losing. 

Maybe you can't attack these issues head on without getting in a fight, but I don't think behaviours such of this are an isolated occurrence. They're part of a greater whole. You have to look at the big picture and see where you can be the leader and you can instil confidence rather than staging a fight where you're struggling to even stay even. 

Sure the tying up would probably work - but as you said you haven't got her to the point where you can get her safely there. 

A few things I noted from your post - your horse has been inside for weeks without exercise (thats what it seemed to say)? So really, its no surprise that when you take her out she's ready for a battle. If my horse was fed up, locked inside, she'd be nuts. Horses need to be outside or get proper regular work. I know you mentioned insect problem - is there something you can do to combat that? Medication? Rugging? Sprays? If your horse has this problem other horses in the area probably do too, so its worth contacting a few vets. Also, some bugs don't come out at night - maybe you can turn her out in the evening?

Another thing - it sounds like you haven't really worked with her for weeks. When you have a problem with a horse you have to work at it everyday. It's like trying to learn the saxophone and practicing once a week - you'll get nowhere! You'll forget everything! To learn new things you need to do them very regularly. So I know you have problems, but I don't think you're going to fix things without finding a way to work with her everyday on them.

To be honest, your horse sounds vaguely agoraphobic. The best thing would be to just turn her out 24/7 for a while. I'd be getting her out as much as possible.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I don't want to wade into a interpersonal argument. I will say that the idea of tying the horse has been suggested and for various reason's the owner has decided not to pursue. Its horse training which means that there about 1000 different ways to get the same result. Which means that we should find alternative options and suggestions. The great thing I think about horses and horse training is that there is no one over all best, greatest training method that works for everything or every situation. Training is about having an entire tool box and not just a hammer, in my opinion. 

For the flies would your mare tolerate a fly sheet? If you could find one with a large belly strap it might help her with the flies. There is also a topical month long fly preventative (sort of like a flea or tick preventative that they use on dogs) that works for horses. It might be worth investigating. I do think that she/you might appreciate getting her getting her yayas out. Do you feel comfortable having her turned out at night?


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Tank, I know various celebrity trainers recommend backing the horse but my preference is to encourage forward movement. And one way to do that is to get her moving forward enough to complete a circle then start with the changes of direction every half circle. She is still moving forward and you're still telling her feet to move which proves your dominance. She has just graduated to a lower standing in the pecking order. One thing I strongly recommend is the moment you feel frustration or anger sneaking up, stop right then and there and walk away. Do not return until you have taken the time to assess what you've done and how she reacted and what could you change. Only when you are relaxed and with a clear mind should you return to the pen. Ask for something easy for her and keep the energy low and be sure you breathe. Again ask her to leave and if she refuses lunge her as described above for no more than 3 minutes, then square your shoulders, look at a point well beyond the gate and walk with confidence. Don't look at her or the ground in front or you will confuse her. She will think she's where you want her that is why looking beyond. The gate becomes secondary as you both have a destination.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses,

Peppy- yes I'm going to check the tack shop and just give it a shot - wont hurt right? 

Saskia- I'm glad I'm not the only one. Maybe there are parts I'm not being assertive enough with, I think I ought to be more assertive in general, sometimes I just get gooshy with her. 
As for going out - someone else mentioned that. Every day I have the stall door open for as long as I'm home, but usually she'll stay inside after just a few minutes of bugs eating her. I usually have to push her out to do her stall. So she actually doesn't get out much at all. I've been reducing her diet too, because she clearly has too much energy in her diet for her exercise level.

Rookie- Thanks, there are lots of different ways, I'm glad to try new ways but I'm always going to start with the mildest option and work my way until there are results. 
As for bugs, she destroyed 1 fly sheet in 4 days from rubbing her belly and scratching in it. I soak her with bug spray before I let her out and every couple hours, she hates it. I cover her belly and the base of her mane with swat (so she's always sticky and covered in dirt from it). I haven't tried those leave on things, but I'll definitely look into it. 
I wouldn't mind if the bugs just caused her to be a little uncomfortable, but she won't go outside even for grass and when she does she spends the whole time rolling and belly scratching and pawing at her belly. Then she gets giant cuts/welts/bald spots all on her belly. She didn't rub her mane out this year, but her belly has been worse than ever. I've had to cover her belly in furazone at night to help reduce the swelling and keep the boo-boos clean. My vet says those are the best things I can do for her outside of keeping her locked up. She's allergic to the black flies I think and the mosquitoes make her rub her mane out. So day and night are both awful for her. >.<


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Tank, I know various celebrity trainers recommend backing the horse but my preference is to encourage forward movement. And one way to do that is to get her moving forward enough to complete a circle then start with the changes of direction every half circle. She is still moving forward and you're still telling her feet to move which proves your dominance. She has just graduated to a lower standing in the pecking order. One thing I strongly recommend is the moment you feel frustration or anger sneaking up, stop right then and there and walk away. Do not return until you have taken the time to assess what you've done and how she reacted and what could you change. Only when you are relaxed and with a clear mind should you return to the pen. Ask for something easy for her and keep the energy low and be sure you breathe. Again ask her to leave and if she refuses lunge her as described above for no more than 3 minutes, then square your shoulders, look at a point well beyond the gate and walk with confidence. Don't look at her or the ground in front or you will confuse her. She will think she's where you want her that is why looking beyond. The gate becomes secondary as you both have a destination.



WOW! Thank You!! I was thinking about EXACTLY this today. I realized that I've trained her a million ways to move away from me, but not a single way to move toward me. Since the beginning she has always followed me wherever I've gone. Her problems were always space invasion and pushing into me. So we spent a great deal of time focusing completely on teaching her to yield, left and right and front and back and all around, but I never taught her to yield forward o.o So I'm going to practice her with that. Working her to back away and stand, then teaching her to come to me.

I will work on exactly what you said, those are great skills! Do you think though that leaving is really the best option? Isn't that letting her win? But I do know what you mean, once I'm frustrated it's just a battle.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A battle is what you want to avoid. When you ask her to back away from you then ask her to come forward she is not to come any closer than your outstretched arm. Some prefer it even farther back, the reason being is that should something out of the blue give your horse an awful fright it has somewhere to go instead of over top of you. Now when you enter her space give her lots of lead, hold your hand up like a stop sign and circle around until you can face (your shoulders) her shoulder about 3' away. Approach her, rub only a line that runs vertically thro her shoulder then back up a few steps and turn. I do this two or three times on each side and it has quit a calming effect as this line is it's neutral line. You will notice that you are feeling calmer as well. And you have asked nothing of her at this time.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That's a very good point about keeping her a safe distance even when I ask her to come to me. Can you possibly rephrase what you said, I'm not sure I'm following you, do you mean I ask her to come to me, with my hand outstretched, then when she reaches my hand I walk over and pet each shoulder? Sorry I feel like I'm missing something obvious xD


----------



## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

okay... i've tried to read as much of this thread as i can so that i don't go over the same thing someone has already said... but if i do, i apologize. 
I bought my horse in July 2011 and began ground training him (with a Parelli trainer) in November. He wouldn't back up. Not one single step. If he was asked to back, he would rear straight up in the air. I would get so angry and so frustrated with him, that it would exacerbate the issue even more and he would become wide eyes, panicked, and would try to run from me. 
I later learned to just relax. To allow him to be afraid, but not reactive. We as humans want the results that WE want when WE want them. 
So in my very limited knowledge of horse training... what if you just made simple little accomplishments, and then left it at that. Take it one day at a time. Get her to just walk up to the fence. Get her to touch the fence with her nose. Give her a pat or a treat and then say goodbye to her. Open the gate, and get her to just yield around the open gates area... like, we're not leaving... we're just gonna' hang out around this open fence here. Pat/treat and goodbye. In my experience, if you build and build and build... then the horse will too. If you just take your time, and let there be positive little accomplishments, then it will come in time.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Oxer, you're right with that too, I may have bitten off more than she could deal with right then. I thought that because she went out the first time, this time would be the same, but maybe I should have set my goals a little lower and then expanded on them if they went perfectly. I'll work on that idea, just doing a tiny bit at a time.

I think I'm going to mix Everyone's ideas, pretty much. Working on teaching her to 'come here' to a safe distance, keeping myself calm, using the 'target' to help keep her focus on me. I'm going to work more on our ground work and probably have the pony waiting for us wherever our 'goal' is.
Thank you all - I have a renewed sense of hope. I have all day tomorrow, I'm going to try to get time to do a few, short sessions with her. I'll let you all know how it goes.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Sorry, but I have to agree with Cherie....I am not a NH person by far, but what I am seeing (no offense intended) is a horse that has trained you to leave her alone when she gets scared......her anxiety is so high that it has overwhelmed your ability to demand her t do something.......personally I would put a bum rope on that horse and get a good pal out to drive her from behind while I lead the horse....and I would dare her to stop and balk on me......also, does this horse get ridden? Or regular exercise (I mean the break a sweat kind of exercise?) exercise is a great reducer of anxiety for horses......

Also, really let's get this in perspective here, you are not asking this horse to fly to the moon, I wouldn't waste anytime in fixing this problem face on and now....something take months to train and only 5 seconds for it to all be screwed up.....then it take twice as long to fix the wreck we have created....I've been there....


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Well, I'm not sure how I've ever let her get away with anything, as she has never been allowed to not go out the gate when I ask her, it just takes longer than I want.

A bum rope is a GREAT idea! I will also see if maybe someone can drive her from behind while I lead- that's a good idea too! Thanks  I'm a little concerned that if she does go she'll blow up with all that, but I guess I can just take it a step at a time and judge when she's reached her breaking point. 
There's no point in pushing her past her breaking point, I'll stop when she's going good and ask for a little more each time.

No unfortunately she doesn't get strong exercise like that, I could work more on her riding skills, but like I said I'm stuck to doing it all in the paddock - I wanted to fix these obvious gaps in her ground work before reaching further on her riding skills. But you're right about her needing more real exercise. I don't like the idea of lunging more than a trot, I'm so concerned about her joints, especially with her being overweight right now (my vet and I have been fixing her diet). She is on a diet that's far more high energy than her exercise level, but we're working on it. That could also be a huge part of the problem. I wrote another thread about ideas on how to exercise a horse like her, but nothing is hard work, mostly brain work. She line-drives and lunges, but only walk/trot.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes please get a bum rope and thread it up through the ottom of your head collar and give her a tug on the but every time she balks, and if she doesn't respond get a buddy to drive her up from behind. Also, if you are worried about getting run over or trampled by this horse, because she sounds awfully fresh to me, I would put a colt bit on her ( it's a bit that circles through the horses mouth and out under her chin and you snap it on to your halter then clip your lead rope through the ring on the bit AND onto the halter at the same time) these bits are excellent for young horses/racehorses/stallions I've used them a lot. There, so you have control of her head (therefore you can control where her nose goes) you have a bum rope driving her butt where you need it to go....and you've good old buddy as back up following behind (at a safe distance) to back you up.

Also, don't go buy a bum rope, you know all that string you have left over from your hay? That stuff makes a perfect in a pinch lifesaver bum rope! It's cheap, it's strong, and it's thin enough to have some 'bite' when you give it a tug....good luck, I want o hear how you get on 

Also, exercise, here's a tip, for a fat horse - trot! You trot her until she's blowing, if we don't exercise until we blow and sweat we'd never lose weight or get fit......her joints will actually be better for it t get the weight off.....and I would cut back ALL the hard feed....hay is just fine as long as its good hay


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks, that's a great idea! Yes I've used those bits on stallions and nasty stud colts before, I didn't think about using one on her *dope*. I'll try with just the bum rope and halter, I don't think she'll run me over, she has learned _very_ well that bumping me gets her bum kicked worse than anything any scary object in the world could do to her. She doesn't run me over, but she'll run out of my hands if she's scared enough (which has allllwaayyss been met with much more, serious work, she's Never gotten away with that). So I'm concerned that if she just decides to make a run for it to wherever she see's as safe, like where the pony is standing outside her field, she may just bomb off over there with us dangling in the breeze.  But again, I'll take things just a step at a time and try to stop on a good note. I've gotten pretty good at reading her.
Also I have a giant rope, it was a lead rope that came on my rope halter (so no clip), I'm sure it'll reach all the way around, I'll just tie it onto her halter. 

I'll let everyone know what I end up doing tomorrow - I have a LOT of great suggestions, I'm not sure which I'm going to go with, probably a combination of all of them xD Thanks everyone.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I was also wondering, right now her diet is very high energy and her exercise level is low, I'm working with my vet to fix both those issues, in the mean time though, what about trying a calming supplement? Has anyone tried anything like that? I'm thinking something like one of smart pak's calming supplements? I know it's a sort of cheat, but I think it may help settle her out while we make her diet more appropriate. Maybe this should go in another post?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I wasn't going to come back here, but I will try one more time. She needs no excuses. She just plain needs to be broke to lead and needs a firm, EFFECTIVE training hand.

First of all, when you had to haze her into her stall, I believe you said after she finally went you quickly shut the door. That was a mistake. Once you actually had her lead into her stall, you should have taken her in and our about 20 times. You should have done it repeatedly until she walked right in without being hazed. Then, she actually would have learned something.

That is where I would start now. She is way too big to drag around by a butt rope. They are real effective for foals and weanlings but you are asking to get run over or have her jerk away as big as she is.

Get the same person to haze her now. Have someone haze her while you lead her everywhere she does not want to go. But first, you have to recognize that she DOES NOT behave well and does not lead anywhere she does not want to. 


> I have NEVER allowed her to not do something I've asked, she's NEVER done less than what I ask, the problem is that I have to fight for nearly an hour to get it Every Time. I have never let her 'get away' with anything, she has always been kept in check, usually it just requires a 'ahhh' growl for make her straighten out.


You cannot say she does everything you ask her to do and then tell us how you cannot lead her anywhere she does not want to go.

She is so thoroughly in charge that I am just sitting her shaking my head. I do not understand how to be that far in denial.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

You're right, she doesn't lead where I want her to lead, when I want her to get there, it takes an hour of fighting to make it happen. You're right I should have made her march in and out of the stall 20 times, but at that point that day there was a thunderstorm, I was well soaked and we had all worked for over an hour to get her in the first time. I planned on having that battle with her the next time I let her out. That opportunity didn't arise, because next time I wanted her in her stall I just said "get in your stall" and she merry trotted over from the other side of her paddock and got in. 

She is in charge, I really want to fix that, I'm trying very hard to. I have had a number of other people try, but no one else seems to be able to either. I really want to know how to be more in charge. I'm fairly certain having someone haze her from behind will likely get me killed though - my fiance was on the other side of her stall door holding the rope while I went at her hind end. So he was safe, had the door not been there I'm sure she could have killed him. 
I'm also very afraid if we do, haze her out from behind that she doesn't just gallop off into the street and get hit by a car. This is all assuming I could even find someone willing to haze her from behind while I try to lead her, which I don't think anyone I know would be willing to do that.

You're right this is a BAD situation - it needs to be fixed - I'm searching desperately to find out HOW to fix it. I will do whatever it takes that will leave us all safe in the end. But I'd rather have her stuck in her paddock completely disrespecting me than dead in a street, or me dead. 

What I mean by the portion you quoted, is you act like I allow her to get away with things, I don't allow her, I just can't stop her. When I can't stop her I make her work and work and work and I chase her and work her more until she finally gives in and does what I want, but that often takes a very long time. I don't know how to get her to do what I want _when_ I want. I know it's her disrespecting me, I know it's me not being forceful enough, but I don't know how to be any more forceful without being so forceful that she kills me or herself. I need something in between.

I also really believe the problem is in her attention. I find often, even in our training session in her paddock, her attention wanders easily. I am quick to get it back in a calm situation, but I haven't found an effective way to get her attention when she's scared, like leaving her paddock. She is so hyper-focused on the gate and her fear she isn't listening one bit to me. I make her yield and dance and do everything, but her attention is still off in scary-land. I don't know how to get it back.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2010)

Forgive me if I say something deemed stupid, however from the first few pages I read and this last page, it seems like you like the thought of tying her somewhere out of her comfort zone, but cannot lead her there to tie? Random idea,...but have you tried teaching her to lead blindfolded? I haven't used the method myself, but I have heard of it being used when a horse is in a frightening situation to calm the horse. I think I would try getting her desensitized to a blindfold, and work up to leading her in her "safe" area with it on. After she allows this, blindfold her and walk her to a safe tying spot away from comfort. Tie then remove the blindfold. At least, that is what I would try.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Coyote, that's a good idea, and I did think of it, someone else mentioned it to. It took a long time to even get her to let me put my shirt over her eyes, and when she was finally comfortable with that she would NOT budge for anything, not even yielding. I'm sure if I hit her hard enough she'd jump, but I don't want to make her run away blind folded either. 
Thanks for the idea though.

I have a long list of fantastic ideas to try. I'm going to try a large number of them tomorrow. Hopefully all will go well. I really appreciate everyone's time and effort in this and I hope to have good news to report.  I wish I knew how to be a more assertive leader, or get her to trust me better, whatever she needs. 

I'm also going to be more vigilent about her exercise. She's going to get lunged walk/trot or line-drive walk/trot at least a short while everyday. I think that will help her, along with her diet change. I'm sure my consistent working will also help reassert myself as the dominant one. I really need to step up to the plate on this one, can't let my pony down any more.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2010)

Alright, I have one more thing to ask then -- probably one of the most basic things considered, however when you ask her to walk forward from the front, do you stand directly in front and ask with even pressure until she gives? If so I have found things can take much longer to progress. It is easier to get the forward movement if you step to either side just a little and ask for a lateral movement, it causes the horse to "unstick", though for a balky horse it might mean walking zig-zags for a little while. We use this method to halter break untouched 2 year olds.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Zig-zags is exactly what got her out the gate in the end. It forced her to stay paying attention to me because I kept changing direction, they were really tight with not much forward motion, mostly back and forth, but we did make it to and out the gate. At the gate I stood out ahead of her, but to the side and just kept constant pressure on her. I can't remember why I stopped the zig-zag at that point other than just cause I was so sick of her. xD

But yes, typically when leading her I stand next to her and walk forward, she walks with me, When she freezes I stay located and keep marching in place, with as much pressure as I can pulling her along with me. When that doesn't work I disengage her hind end or yield her front end or make her lunge. I guess just turning at that point would be better. Maybe next time she gets balky I'll just start with the zig-zags.

Thank you again for the constructive help


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am certain this is *not* fear. It is plain 'I am not going to do it!'

Fear is picked up from those around. If you, as a child, had a mother who was frightened of thunder storms, then the chances are that you to will be frightened of them. The reason for this is because you feel their fear. 

Horses and dogs are exactly the same. You expect her not to come in so she does what you expect. The fact that you say you spent an hour trying and got frustrated confirms what she is feeling so she plays up. _She is behaving the way you expect her to behave._ The moment your heart rate changes or your thoughts become negative she reacts.

_The art of good horsemanship is to never let your heart rate alter and not to have negative expectations. 
_ This is proven with people like Parelli, Roberts, Anderson, Cesar Milan with dogs and Jo Frost (Super Nanny) with children. Their common factor is that they have no doubt they will achieve the desired effects and the determination and stamina to follow through _without allowing the tantrums and bad behaviour to effect them._

We breed TBs for jump racing. They are usually horses well over 16 hands. I have little time to mess around with the youngsters. what handling they have is done correctly and every little thing that they show that is unwanted is corrected firmly and fairly. 
I often have eight of them in a loose shed, at feed times when I walk in, they stand back and wait until I start feeding they know they have to give me room, to stand back from the feed bowls. Hassling and shoving is corrected with me whacking them with the feed bowl and chasing them off. They know that I mean what I say and say what I mean. It is consistent. 

As for fear, that is picked up from the handler/rider. A horse that looks at something, stops and stares needs to be corrected. A sharp jerk on the halter a word of correction should be enough. Make a fuss and coo at them and you are reinforcing the bad behaviour. 

I was bringing in five unbroken youngsters one day when a hot air balloon came directly over us. The flame was being blasted and the balloonist had brown eyes - he was that low and landed in the adjoining field. He had not seen the horses because of the trees around us. 
A couple of the horses started to try and run back. A quick verbal correction "You DARE!" a jerk on the rope and they immediately stopped. Their respect for me was greater than their fear of the balloon. 

The balloon went over and I led them in as if nothing had happened. 

It is the little things that need to be corrected. Every time you walk into the stable the horse should move back to give you room. When the door is open the horse should stand at the back of the stable waiting until invited before making a move to the door. Standing still regardless of what you are doing to it, whether tied or loose. 
It is not rocket science it is being determined, confident and not allowing it to get to you.

I would bet my last penny that should Cherie or I go to get that horse in from the field it would be done in less than 10 minutes and that there would be very little trouble because A) we know what we are doing, B) can read the body language before anything happens, C) have no doubt that we would achieve what we want and D) would make the horse realise that not doing what we wanted would be far worse than walking from the field.


----------



## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I have another example to addto the mix:

Before I moved,I had the opportunity to work with an arab mare who was deemed 'crazy' by a lot of people, including my handler namely because of her unpredictability.

Well, as I got to know her,I realized, she's only fussing and acting 'scared' because she flat out doesn't like working! She doesn't want to leave her nice pasture, her buddies, her hay. 

A lot of times, when she's brought out, people encourage her to be a freaky horse because they think she's dangerous and outright crazy. Sure, she is unpredictable when it comes to certain things, but if someone had the time to work with her and take care of it, she wouldn't have become how she is now.

Example:

Every now and then I would take her out, and tack her up. I wouldn't ride, just tack and lunge as a part of our ground work. First time we brought a big "scary" western out, she flipped. We had to untie her and have someone hold her in attempts, while she kept freaking out.

Fast forward a couple months. 
I bring an english out, and she did fine. [Mostly brought the english out because it was hot in the summer, and I didn't want to struggle carrying out a western.] I try putting on a bridle, and she fought me all the way. 

Next day: I bring out the saddle again, and she freaks out.Rears, and pulls,and all that stuff. So I bop her hard with the lead rope and give her a scolding. She sat nicely for me after. No more repeat attempts of freaking.

Took out the bridle. As usual, she fights me on it. A quick bop on the lead rope and a scolding, and she settles and stops.

After our work, I found out she had a scrape from the halter. It was a clinton anderson, and the rope must have been too harsh for her. So I brought out some stuff for it. As soon as I putmy finger in the goop, she did the same thing in with the saddle. Same action, same response. she settled and I administered.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Fox - that's so well put, she has never been out of any paddock her entire life, she has always been in one paddock, then loaded right from there into a trailer to her next home. So she has no reason to be afraid of leaving her paddock - no horror has happened to her out there, she has no experience with it. The first time we left her paddock at our last home, was 2 days after I got her, and she was not halter broke (I was told she was halter broke and broke up to line-driving) I had no idea, so we walked out, she was nervous at the gate because she was still nervous with narrow gates, but then went through and walked all the way out to our riding ring, coming back she was barging and rough and plowing me over and being so awful and rude. So I spent the next few months thinking "she is afraid to leave her paddock, she's scared, she's scared" so after months of working on getting her respecting space, yielding, alllll the basics I decided to take her out again. But in my head I had the image of her bull dozing me again. So naturally, she picked up on that (me being scared) and was not going to go.
Finally when I did work her out after repeated attempts and work she would walk down the driveway one way (but always with her attention off in scary-land) but she would behave and stay respectful distance from me. But coming the other way was a huge issue - now she was between me and the barn, not the other way around, there are decorations and buckets and bedding bags and water gardens in front of the barn, even a bicycle sometimes. So that meant more of her sidestepping into my space, me having to remind her never to do that, making her face the things she was afraid of, rinse+repeat= leaving the paddock was awful! Everytime we left I was the one afraid, afraid she'd crush me or something.
Maybe those same fears all the trainers I hired had too? I don't know why she wouldn't do it for them, they all said "oh I can fix that, you just need to ____". But typically she wouldn't even pass the gate for them.
One trainer had me and her stand on either side with lead ropes (I had one with a chain, cause I'm not nearly as strong), we practiced inside her paddock until she was fine with us both being their, then marched her all the way down the driveway, shoving a treat in her mouth before her attention would wander, so she kept looking for treats, rather than worrying about where we were going, we got her ALL the way past the scary barn, past the scary bedding bags and through the path in the woods and down to the round pen. We let her go to let her blow off steam. Well she certainly did as she careened back through the gate (which was shut and locked, pipe metal round pen) and galloped her way back up to her paddock. o.o we were flabbergasted. I had no idea she could have done that, until later she rolled into it and bent our pipe metal fencing into a pretzel xD 
I'm thinking your right fox, me and the other trainer were so pent up with anxiety the horse probably wasn't at all scared of leaving or the pen, but scared because we were both horrified! 
The first time we left at our new property, I was in the mindset of "it's a new property with nothing scary, she'lll definitely leave the paddock!" but the end of the first time she got a bit disrespectful when she determined a bush on the ground was pretty horrifying. So by the time I asked her to leave again, guess what, I was the nervous one. 

Do you suggest I leave her if I start getting frustrated? Isn't that like letting her win? I will start carrying my whip in with her to encourage forward movement, I also have a crop she'll target with her nose to see if that would help. I can also put the pony outside to maybe give me the confidence that she'll leave xD. I need to have no doubt in my mind that she'll leave and remain respectful. 
Do you have any tips on getting her attention back when she's off in "scary-land"? I feel her attention wanders from me quite easily and I need to constantly change pace or direction to get it back, but that hasn't effected how long she'll stay focusing.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've already said this - but this horse is NOT afraid or nervous, it just doesn't want to do whats asked of it and is focusing on something to use as an excuse for not moving
Horse do lie. There is no monster in the corner of our menage - my horses know that but its a great excuse for trying to get out of work - unfortunately for them that just means extra work for them
If rearing is a problem you could try a 'chifney bit' to lead him in. They stopped any rearers that I've had that tried similar tricks to your one, even a normal bridle might get more respect than a headcollar or halter


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have a yearling gelding that seriously slashed his side open about 6 weeks ago. He had to stay stabled and then in the loose pen for 5 weeks. He lost a lot of weight because he was stressing so I decided that he would be better turned out with a very steady nanny mare. 
That was all fine and he is happier but, today he decided that because the mare had her halter on and was being led out, that he could push and barge into me. 
Physically I have the strength to barge him back and shove him over but, he just came back so, I pulled out a hoof pick and when he pushed into me he had the point shoved into his shoulder. He moved away but barged forward so, the point was shoved into his chest. 
In about 2 minutes he learned that my space is mine and he had better keep put of it or it hurts. 
He wasn't doing anything terribly bad, just being a pushy baby. He was anxious to go out and it would have been no bother for me to just open the door and lead him out. I have the strength to have held him but, that was not the point. Manners are to be to the fore all the time. I will not tolerate anything else. Majority of people would have just let him get away with it and thought nothing of it. 

When a horse is getting ansty and coming into my space I will use the hoof pick to shove it over. if it is not concentrating on me then it will get a good shake up via the halter rope. If it is a bigger horse than I will use a control alter but most I can fix with a normal halter. 

As I said I do not care if the devil is stood there, if they are with me then I am the one that owns the air they breathe and they have to concentrate on me and me alone. 

I do not beat my horses around, there generally is no need but, if they have earned a wallop then they will certainly feel it.

I would not lunge her when she is refusing to go I would have a long whip and the moment she stopped she would get it wrapped around her butt before she could take another breath. I certainly would not get ahead of her. You can whack them without stopping just by using your outside hand behind your body. One hard sharp zing and she should jump her body length forward. 

When she comes into your space be quick to use the hoof pick or shake the rope, make her throw her head in the air and get after her. Make her think that if she doesn't watch you she is going to die. 

As for you, then you are going to have to learn breathing techniques and how not to get frustrated. Think calm. think positive and most of all picture her walking through the gate with no problems at all.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok so here's today's results, not nearly as good as I wanted to report but I've learned some things and she's learned some things.

I started the day by doing a 5 minute clicker session - for my clicker training helpers, I found that using larger, less potent treats (hay stretcher pellets mixed with larger cut carrots and larger cut celery) made her less grabby, we practiced learning to take the teach calmly. She did well by the end. Still need more work, but she is connecting the click to the treat better.
Then I went out to get Apple Cider Vinegar to hopefully help with the bugs and Omega 3 for her to hopefully help with her sweet itch.
Then I came home (much later than I wanted cause the boy had a list of things he needed). I let her out and after a few minutes went out to lunge her, just to get her thinking and listening and a little more tired. 
Here's where all hell broke loose. She is still learning to lunge well and still makes ovals and D-shaped circles around me, rather than round circles. So we worked on just walking and halting and changing directions and trying to stay out. When I asked her to go out away from me, pointing the lunge whip to her shoulder - she'd simply speed up and not move out, even when the whip was on her chest (in front). This is the first time I've ever really pushed her beyond her comfort zone, aside from asking her to leave her paddock. All our other training is just yielding, very non-confrontational and she handled all that well. But during our lunging today I was more confrontational, not letting her get away with crap, working to keep her focus on me, making sure her ears and inside eye was on me at all times, shuffling the ground or shaking the rope to get the attention back, or just saying "hey, Attention!". She wouldn't walk for quite a while, just trotted all around and wouldn't slow for anything - of course she is quite hopped up from being stuck inside all morning. But when I started asking her to do anything, move out, slow down, halt, anything, she decided "screw you, I don't wanna and you can't make me" and would gallop off until I would have to let go, minor rope burns and a pair of gloves later, she ran into her stall. I promptly re-got her, gave her the fright of her life in her stall, cursed more swears than I ever thought I knew, then took a deep breath and said "ok lets try again". We tried again, guess what happened again. Back to her stall, this time there were no threats, only actions, and actions until her head was down and there was licking and chewing. This time I shut her stall door and brought her out and asked her to walk, she walked, she stayed out on her circle, but then the neighbor let his dog out (quite far enough away for us to not care) I didn't notice the dog was out until Tank was at the other end of the paddock and I had no rope in my hand. This time I had enough and she had no where to go. So I pseudo-round penned her. I let her run and run and run and wouldn't let her stop, when she started getting tired I made her change direction a million and a half times. Of course my paddock has to be huge and rectangular, so I'm running myself ragged trying to keep up with her and get her to change direction, but she didn't break below a trot the entire time, was cantering most of it. She licked and chewed a few times, but she's licked and chewed more than a few times in our previous similar sessions and when I relieved my pressure she'd just stop and eat. So this time I just kept at her despite her licking and chewing. I kept at her until her head was down, her focus was completely on me, she was licking and chewing till her mouth was white, and she was clearly tired. I stopped and turned away and for the _first time ever_ she truly came over to me. She has submitted more time than I can count, but always would just ignore me after. But this time I earned a bit of her respect. She came all the way over to me, from the other side of the field and stood behind me, a respectful distance, without stopping to eat grass like she usually would, I pet her forhead and put her in her stall with a fan on to cool off for a few.
I went upstairs and had a total emotional breakdown. I'm so far in over my head with this fricken horse, nothing I do is working, I can't do this - all those awful thoughts. Then I went back downstairs and cried in front of her stall and asked her why she had to be such a jerk. Then I realized, she's just doing what horses do, I'm not being a good enough leader. I'm letting her down, not the other way around. So I got up. Got the lunge line and took her back outside. 
This time I ditched the whip, it was just making us both uncomfortable. But I kept it at my feet in case I needed it. I told her to walk - she walked out, probably because she was exhausted. She walked calmly in both directions, she kept her circles pretty round, but not perfect, but she was _trying_. I asked her for one small trot in both directions and then continued walking. She did everything quite well. She clearly learned that lesson. I kept at it until she was soft and responsive to all I asked, changing directions and changing speeds. At one point a motorcycle went by and she jumped, a full spook, but rather than galloping away I said "hey, attention!" and she came right over and stood by me for a minute then I sent her out again and continued working. MUCH better response! Not perfect, but better!!

Then I took her for a hand walk around her paddock. The corner near her gate made her tense and nervous, I don't know why. But the first time I let her walk through it fussing and huffing, then we walked past it again, stopping every 2 steps and 'putting her head down'. She would be responsive until we were right at the gate, where I told her to stop, and she promptly spun into my space, which was greeted with being whacked, quite intensely with the extra lunge line. I lined my elbow up with the crook of her neck/shoulder area for her to meet if she pushed into me again, which she met twice before she stopped doing that. But then she would start turning her hind end in and be walking next to me by side stepping so she could face the gate and walk where I steered without pushing into me, but after a minute she froze because I was asking her to get closer to the gate (not an intention of her going out, just by it). So I used Fox's suggestion about the whip, but I didn't have it in my hand so I swung the extra rope around to her bum, she lunged forward and spun around to face me- I quickly got myself next to her again, marched her around and walked her by the fence, this time just rattling the extra rope to keep her walking straight next to me. She walked by the gate! Huffing and puffing, but no space invading and no sidestepping. We did that a few more times until she would go by it calmly. 

I still have no idea what gets her in such a fuss about the gate, I was not expecting her to react that way, as I've gotten her comfortable there a number of times before. I thought and had in my head that she'd walk right by the area. So I don't think I fed any anxiety in her. The only thing else I can think of, which is another excuse, is that she is completely miserable with these bugs the way they are, our whole time lunging she'd be kicking/pawing her belly or shaking, and the area where the gate is is more overgrown and more buggy, which may have just been making her tense/uncomfortable in general. Regardless of why she's acting like that though, it DID end on her being respectful and leading where I lead her without any fuss or anything. She did very well by the end, I guess that's my baby step for today, I wish I had better to report.

I'm going to make sure to lunge or line-drive her every day to keep her schooling and to keep her exercised. I agree, exercise is a great way to work out the anxiety. I'm going to head down now to give her a massage to help her muscles, she hasn't worked that hard in quite a while 

Thank you all so much for your help you've given me a fantastic list of ideas and methods I'll definitely be working on them


----------



## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Good for you, and all the hard work you've put in!! My beloved QH used to test me at times, so I know that it takes time, patience and determination - all very well worth it


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I do think that you saw some light at the end of that very long dark tunnel today and realised that sometimes getting angry & tough with them isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't you reacting in a temper or losing your calm - not the same thing
You can spend way too much time trying to understand why horses do some things because a lot of the time its 'just because they can'
We cant even understand why our fellow humans behave they way they do so what chance do we have of understanding another species?
The green tub that Looby walks past every day - and drinks from when she's in that paddock becomes a terrifying monster when its moved a few feet down the fence. I dont even waste time wondering why - she just has to deal with it
As someone with 5 horses who all suffer with bug phobia I have recently found that Mosquito halt seems to work better than all the others I've tried. 
Have you tried leaving him out at night and bringing him in at mid day?
Dont get depressed or beat yourself up, this horse needs a very dominant leader but you will get there
As he sounds to be so easily stressed and high strung for the breed have you ever considered that he might have ulcers - they can make a horse very fractious and edgy?


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks, you're right I do spend too much time focused on that, I have an arab mare at our rescue who's like the horse you described, but I've never cared with her - just made her deal with it. But it's so much easier making a horse deal with being scared of a solid object, especially one you can pick up and hold and turn into a game. 
But you're right, WHY doesn't matter - she needs to do it.
I have tried mosquito halt and it caused her to break out in massive welts, Pyranna did the same thing, must be a common ingredient. I have always used Repel X which really doesn't do the job, but I just started adding Apple Cider Vinegar, which helped yesterday for maybe 5 minutes longer than repel x alone -.-
She is seriously stressed all the time, when she's outside I'll hear her (from upstairs) spontaneously start galloping around. Everything causes her to spook - with or without me around. At our old home she spooked over IDK the wind blew or something and galloped from her front field to her stall and cut a gash in her side from the latch on the gate she bombed through. She has bombed through that fence a number of times after that too without thinking, luckily I learned to turn the latch when she's out. I was assured by the BO of our last home that there was no way she could have ulcers because the high calcium levels of the alfalfa pellets we give her. But I'm thinking with her high stress and spontaneous explosions maybe she could? Maybe I should just put her on magnesium and see if that helps - won't hurt right?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Thanks, you're right I do spend too much time focused on that, I have an arab mare at our rescue who's like the horse you described, but I've never cared with her - just made her deal with it. But it's so much easier making a horse deal with being scared of a solid object, especially one you can pick up and hold and turn into a game.
> But you're right, WHY doesn't matter - she needs to do it.
> I have tried mosquito halt and it caused her to break out in massive welts, Pyranna did the same thing, must be a common ingredient. I have always used Repel X which really doesn't do the job, but I just started adding Apple Cider Vinegar, which helped yesterday for maybe 5 minutes longer than repel x alone -.-
> She is seriously stressed all the time, when she's outside I'll hear her (from upstairs) spontaneously start galloping around. Everything causes her to spook - with or without me around. At our old home she spooked over IDK the wind blew or something and galloped from her front field to her stall and cut a gash in her side from the latch on the gate she bombed through. She has bombed through that fence a number of times after that too without thinking, luckily I learned to turn the latch when she's out. I was assured by the BO of our last home that there was no way she could have ulcers because the high calcium levels of the alfalfa pellets we give her. But I'm thinking with her high stress and spontaneous explosions maybe she could? Maybe I should just put her on magnesium and see if that helps - won't hurt right?


 Our gypsy became like that about 6 months after we moved here (they must have had a really stressful time flying and being in quarantine etc) but she became like a different horse to ride and handle and we'd had her a few years since she was 3 so knew her well. Her Lymes count was high so she was treated for that but it made no difference to her mental attitude then after seeing the dramatic change in Flo's behaviour when she definitely had ulcers I've decided to try the Gypsy (Honey) on antacids and also adding Quiessence (magnesium/chromium) to her feed. Its still early days but I'm sure she seems more relaxed already so I'm going to continue with it
I've had horses many years and grew up with them so I know that dealing with a naughty horse that just needs a firm hand and a good slap is very different to one thats having a 'nobody at home blue haze moment' when they really dont give a stuff if they run right over the top of you or injure themself


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ya, she definitely has no sense of self preservation, you'd think a flighty horse would be more looking to be safe, not hurt themselves in their flight. I've herd of quiessence, a friend i knew used it and it worked wonders. I'll go to smart pak and see what they say. I really do think she wants to be a good girl, but she's so hugh strung and can't focus on anything for more than a second. I'm not stingy with punishment if she's rude or dangerous, but it seems to make no difference. That being said i'm also not stingy with rewards either when she's being good, she seems to be the type that i can get more with rewards - even just a belly scratcg  She's not a typical draft though, she's a canadian horse which is made from norman barb sort of ancestory- they are the ancestors of morgans and saddlebreds and that section of horses. I think she closest resembles a morgan's brain in a draft body, smart but hot. Thank you so much for your help, it's great to get advice from all angles!! You definitely have exerience 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> Ya, she definitely has no sense of self preservation, you'd think a flighty horse would be more looking to be safe, not hurt themselves in their flight. I've herd of quiessence, a friend i knew used it and it worked wonders. I'll go to smart pak and see what they say. I really do think she wants to be a good girl, but she's so hugh strung and can't focus on anything for more than a second. I'm not stingy with punishment if she's rude or dangerous, but it seems to make no difference. That being said i'm also not stingy with rewards either when she's being good, she seems to be the type that i can get more with rewards - even just a belly scratcg  She's not a typical draft though, she's a canadian horse which is made from norman barb sort of ancestory- they are the ancestors of morgans and saddlebreds and that section of horses. I think she closest resembles a morgan's brain in a draft body, smart but hot. Thank you so much for your help, it's great to get advice from all angles!! You definitely have exerience
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Our gypsy looks like a mini Clydesdale but we know that she is actually a Clyde x arab which does gives her a lot more 'buzz' than you'd expect and if we just bought her we would expect her behaviour to be 'normal for her' but because we had her before she started with all this attitude we know it isnt. Yes she is forward going and energetic and was unsettled for a few weeks when we bought her but she was never fractious and high strung. She has no aggression in her and will still go up front on the trails and recently passed the 'tarp challenge' so what we're seeing now is a different thing altogether. A few weeks ago if she had had a turn at something I could have thrashed the hide of her and she would have not even noticed - just got worse if anything - but this week when she got a good smack for getting wound up by the wheelbarrow she backed right down and walked past it no argument - she is NOT afraid of wheelbarrows.
My old TB x welsh mare is super hot to ride, gets very excitable, the minute your butt hits that saddle she's bouncing on the spot and all go go go but she has never been spooky and isn't high strung - for someone who's used to her type of horse she is 100% safe
The more you talk about your horse the more I'm inclined to think that there is something else going on and I'm not one to make excuses for bad behaviour


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Aww you're poor mare! Yes, Tank is the same way, when she invades my space she gets a prompt spanking, and she either explodes and gallops off or just ignores me completely. When she's calm and focused she can do anything, i've rubbed her with big white plastic bedding bags, put every sort of tack tou could imagine on her, the only thing that she fusses about is bug spray but she's learned to stand for that. But when she's worked up she can't even see straight anymore, her ears and eyes are a mile a minute her entire body is like a rock and she's ready to fly regardless of any consequences. It scares me when she gets like that, but i try to keep a brave face and keep her marching. I've found getting her to put her head down will shift her out of flight mode, but with her it only lasts until i release pressure and her heads up again. I'm headed to smart pak now  thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been said.. but have you tried lunging her and only letting her stop if she'll walk towards the gate? Kinda like trailering?
_Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy?_


----------



## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I only read your first post, so...

Personally, I would make her leave the paddock and tie her to a tree or something until she calms down and stands patiently, then work with her. teach her that the only way she will go back inside the paddock is if and when she's nice and patient.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Britt said:


> I only read your first post, so...
> 
> Personally, I would make her leave the paddock and tie her to a tree or something until she calms down and stands patiently, then work with her. teach her that the only way she will go back inside the paddock is if and when she's nice and patient.


 The OP's first post is a bit confusing - got me too. The horses problem isn't about coming out of the paddock - she actually dislikes being in it and would rather stay in the barn - a lot of it is fly phobia and maybe some insecurity/agrophobia stuff going on too


----------



## Coloureds4Mimi (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi PunkTank, I have been reading this thread with interest! I think that was much more than a babystep! It does seem to me that playing up with the gate has almost become a habit for your mare and up until now she's probably felt like she got away with it. Today you showed her that you ARE boss and that you DO mean business, well done! I had a similar sort of problem with mine, he wouldn't walk through the gate in the electric fence which had zapped him previously which I "understood" so let him get away with it and it got to the point where he'd just try and barge right through you.... anyway he got a crack from the rope I was carrying and never did it again...he now walks through perfect every time. It improved respect in general too - with some horses you have to get their respect by showing them that you are in fact in charge and they need to listen the hell up!

Take that "you ARE going to do it" mindset with you every time you work with her - but remain calm - if you're in a high emotional state then she will be too!

Good luck, please keep us updated with your progress!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've been following this thread silently.
I think I said that before in another....grass hay and a ration balancer or a vitamin/ mineral supplement is all she needs. No oats, no alfalfa pellets, period. I know plenty of horses who go absolutely crazy by just a handful of oats. You don't need the extra horsepower in this situation.
She is in too good of flesh, she doesn't get enough exercise due to her fly problem and she can read you like a book. And she is smart and takes advantage of you. 

If she has a reaction to Mosquito Halt you either put too much on or she us sensitive to an ingredient. Ultra shield works quite well too, btw, and I never wet my horses completely with flyspray. I use a mit for application. 
I think I suggested Avon Skin-so-Soft bath oil, too. Try that, keeps the gnats away. 

You also could add flax seed, in any form, I use omega horseshine and it really helped my fly allergic mare a lot. 

As for your most recent session with her, well done! Keep going like that.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you all, glad to hear i did well  she is definitely just uncomfortable everywhere. Very nervous and tense. 
Yes desert i really appreciate your advice theee, i've been working with my vet to get her diet better. She's down to 1/3 the grain she used to get and i'm very gradually reducing that. In the mean time i've added smart omega 3. And just went to smart pak to talk about her anxiety issues. I was looking at quiessence but they recommended that until her diet is balanced i put her on smart calm ultra then moe her down to either smart calm or quiessence when she evens out a bit.

I'm going to lunge or line drive her every day from now on and not going to slack on her manners, i really did let her get away with too much for too long. It's time she learns to be a horse and i learn to be a horse leader. Thank you all sooo much for your advice and confidence boost i'll keep you posted!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I think I just realized what your problem is ;-)
You only "reduce". Reduce the grain, accept only partial improvement, still finding excuses for her behavior. 
GO ALL THE WAY! 
NO grain....a ration balancer is the way...you're still giving her asmall meal, but only what she really needs, not what makes mommy feel better. 
Any supplements apart from the RB and maybe the omega stuff are a band aid, sort of, for YOU. 
And I bet without grain and alfalfa her protein intake goes down which in turn leads to less bug sensibility. Its proven that hardier breeds like drafts, ponies, Arabians etc can't handle rich feed and become sensitive to bug bites.

Soo....start from there and keep up the "I'm not gonna let you get away with that" attitude. 

Currently your mare jumps out of her skin because she is bothered by bugs, has way too much pent up energy and a tender-hearted mommy. BAD combination for 1200lbs of horse flesh.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Definitely agree with all that, my vet doesn't want me taking her off completely quickly, she wants me to gradually reduce it until she's off. Whih makes sense to me, yes the others are just band aids until this transition is over, but i'd rather take it safe. I will keep up with the attitude and will keep her exercise up and hopefully all will go well. 
Can you explain to me what a ration balancer is? I've never heard of it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

A ration balancer is a grain without grain, especially for easy keepers and horses who have trouble with Carb overload, are Insulin resistant and such. It contains everything a hay/grass-only diet is lacking. Most feed manufacturers have one at least, sometimes two, one for grass based, one for alfalfa based forage. 
It has the appropriate amount of vitamins and minerals, usually yeast, flax, ricebran added to get the protein balance right. You can't go wrong with it. You feed little, maybe a pound a day. If you start working her seriously then you can add a small amount of grain in case she should be losing too much weight. 
You are not depriving her of anything with it, you'll be doing her a world of good. 
Google it, show it to your vet and while you phase out the grain get her started on that.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

There's a thread on the nutrition forum here about ration balancers


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you very much, I am going to look into those threads and talk to my vet about it as soon as I can. I think that may be best as she'll never do hard work, the most I have planned for her is a leisurely trail ride every once in a while - if she ever gets there xD 
I really do think her diet is all sorts of screwed up.
She was on, 3 cups alfalfa pellets, 3 cups crimped oats and 1 cup corn, split into 3 meals. Now she's on 2 cups alfalfa pellets, 2 cups crimped oats and NO corn, split into two meals. With MSM, Brewer's yeast, Smart Omega 3 and Smart Calm Ultra (the last two I just started yesterday). I'm trying to design a better diet for her, but I just don't know enough about it all! Every new supplement I learn about I feel like she needs to be on x.x I really need a better education but I don't know where to start and I'm SO afraid of screwing up!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I see what you're saying. This is why I recommend that ration balancer. Takes the guess work out of it. Haven't worked with SmartPac, but they DO sell supplements....understand what im saying?(I know im gonna catch he** now;-))
IMO she'd do just fine with the RB, some omega(I use Omega Horseshine and am very very pleased with it) and the MSM. 
If she's still too full of herself then, you could try a calmer. 
How did somebody here say? KISS...keep it simple....stupid...;-)


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm looking at the ration balancer posts and they're very overwhelming, I think this is getting off target xD I'm going to post up on the nutrition forum about my two and their current diet, and see what others think too. My vet doesn't seem super knowledgeable about nutrition, just the basics. I'm so afraid of messing up xD and I know what you mean about smart pak


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You'll get even more confused when you hear more opinions.....
I'd go either with a RB, brand of what's readily available in your area

or

1 cup WET alfalfa cubes/pellets, the omega stuff you have and a general vitamin/mineral supplement. 
As easy as that


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok so I found a list of ration balancers in my area and am comparing the ingredients @[email protected] I think my head is spinning! I don't know which is best for what. Maybe I'll do that, what's a good brand of ration balancer or all around vitamin/mineral supplement?


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Like I said, what's readily available, I.e. what the feedstore ALWAYS has in stock.
I personally like the Nutrena, Empower Balance, others swear by whatever. That's why I said what's readily available.

Vitamin/mineral supplement....you want your head REALLY spinning?;-)


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I feel like i've learned so much since coming to this forum. I think i'll do what you said about the soaked hay cubes with her omega, i'll probably include her calming stuff but after she's done with this one i'll move her down to the regular smart calm, it's really just magnesium and b1 vitamins. I really want to learn about all this but i get confused when reading through it all like conversations. I'm goin to continue to wean her off her grain real slow maybe by the end of the month.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You can just sprinkle a little on it...no need to wean her, she doesn't need it, remember?
Man came up with feeding grain, because working horses didn't have enough time to consume the amount of good giveor grass they need. And it has become normal and makes feel horse Momma guilty when nothing is given. They survive just fine on hay/grass alone.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

lol well I might as well finish off the bags, I've got about 20 pounds of crushed corn I need to find a way to get rid of xD so I'll use it up and switch over to hay cubes + supplements


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Got chickens or other birds?....for the corn


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Nah i can't stand em xD too loud!! But i can sprinkle it outside for the wild birds 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Centaurheart (Jul 9, 2012)

Punks... Got this thread caught up finally and I'm sitting here shaking my head. My first thought, and this is probably a rude one, is that Tank is beyond naughty and has been getting away with things for way too long. No one, however, is here to assign blame. I think these Horse forums are here to start fresh, move on, and move forward. That's what you are doing with Tank, moving forward.

Now.. I have a few comments. I would go back and read what Cherie said (even if it was abrupt and to the point) very very carefully. She knows her business and truthfully got me through my issue with my black arab not wanting to walk forward under saddle. I think the advice she gave was stellar and what I would do. Her business is to make trail safe horses and that's what she does. That's what you want. You want Tank to be safe, mindful, and respectful.

Now... sometimes I think you need to throw Natural Horsemanship mythos' out the window. NH is great in its place and what its designed for... but people think NH is one thing and I know fundamentally its something entirely different. I've been to clinton anderson clinics and watched him 'get a horses' attention' by jerking its head around violently and abruptly so its showing him 'two eyes'.

Tank needs this treatment too. IF she strays her attention off you, get her in a rope halter and haul her head around roughly and make her look at you. Keep doing it until you have her attention. Every sign indicates this horse does not respect you and could care less what your doing or what you want. It's time to earn that respect. And frankly if you watch other horses, they do it by threatening each other with appropriate posture, squealing, kicking, etc. When you want her attention, make her pay attention. IF shes on you, hold your hand up and bounce it towards her eye. She'll move. Don't push on her shoulder or have your arm in the crook of her shoulder like you described. That's a horse's strongest part. Go for her eye.. she'll yield. I'm not saying poke her in it.. but hold your hand up with the lead in it right like your going to slap it with the palm of your hand and she'll move over. It seems like you need to teach this mare to move her feet when you want them to move and not a bit sooner. And once you can move her feet, yield her hindquarters, you can move her anywhere...

Now about the bugs. I have a mare (the black arab actually) thats allergic for some reason to most flysprays. It gives her little bumps that itch all over. I use Avon's Skin So Soft which I dose a little makeup removing pad with and smear it all over her... keeps the bugs off, she smells great, and it doesn't make her skin go wonkers.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks i think you're mostly right and the things i agree with i'm definitely doing. I'm no longer taking any of her silly "but i'm too busy worrying about the wind blowing to pay attention to you" sort o games. I am not all NH or all CT or all tradtional, i finding mixing and matching according to the horse and situation is the only way to train.
I do believe her diet is far too high energy and the fact that she can't even be comfortable in her own field tells me there's something wrong internally. I'm doing all i can to fix it, but it takes time.
In the meantime i'm working on being a fair firm leader - not getting frustrated or wish-washy about what i expect. I also realize there are bigger gaps in our training than just walking past the gate, those clearly need to be addressed first. Things like her focus while i'm leading or lunging her. I am being more strict about requiring that, she's proven that she can't be good or safe with only half her attention on me - so clearly i need all of it. I think her diet change and my firmness will address both these issues. But it will take more than a few sessions to undo a years worth of wishy-washy pseudo-leadership i've been giving her. 

My plan is to spend the next few weeks correcting her diet and increasing her exercise. Lunging and line driving will also help reinforce those gaps by requiring her attention on me and by teaching her she needs to do as i ask, even if it wasn't in her plan. I'll also work on leading, especially in and around the gate area. As my confidence and her behavior get better we'll work on being near the gate and eventually through it. 
I was in a huge rush to show her i was boss and make her do what i wanted yesterday and i made a step, but because i was rushing i made stupid mistakes i then needed to undo. It's time for me to take a step back and focus on us now and our relationship, with me in charge this time.

As for the bugs i've been spraying her with apple cider vinegar which seems to be working and giving her omega 3 - i will trt avon skin so soft when i can find it 

I suppose the only thing, i don't believe tying her oUt would be safe. I know a large number of horses i believe it would be seriously beneficial for and i they were mine they'd be tied out right now. I know cherie is a great trainer and has far more experience than me. But she hasn't met this horse. She's injured herself more than a few times during her little melt downs and i won't risk her killing herself tied to a tree. I'd rather have a pasture horse who completely disrespects me than a dead horse. I love her too much to risk that.

But i am working and will keep everyone posted on our progress. I really appreciate everyone's time and thoughtful responses. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Here's today's tiny update, I just spent some time grooming her in her stall - the wind and rain is horrendous outside - I could barely stand up - so no going out.
My mini-win for the day. She was being very good about moving wherever I asked before I needed to even touch her, she likes to stay close to the wall to have her head looking out her door, but when I groom that side I move her over. Typically I back her up, walk around the front and move her over. Typically this is met with her walking forward, me backing her up - rinse repeat. This time when she walked back forward I backed up her, but only with body language, I didn't need to touch her - then said "stand" firmly, when she went to go forward I just "ahh" and she stood the entire rest of the time. I started to let my mind wander and was just grooming her and she, in turn, let her mind wander, she took a step and landed on my foot. Typically this would be met with me moving her off me and telling her she's naughty. Today it was met with a swift hard kick in the behind, then some choice swears and strong body language until she was licking and chewing in a corner in her stall, then I pointed to where I wanted her and said "get back!" she went back and stood perfectly, even when my fiance came down with a smelly ferret (which she LOVES to sniff) xD not sure why!
So it's not big, but I think even those little things build up, I'm maintaining my position as the leader.  Tomorrow - outside!


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

She has got you trained, 100%! If she makes a big enough fuss, then gives you one tiny step forward, you quit! Pretty sweet deal as far as she is concerned!

Rewarding the try is a great concept. However it doesn't always mean you only accept that try. She has learned that she only has to give you a small try and you quit bugging her.

Walking through a gate is not a little quirk, it's not a 'We will work on it' problem. it's a need to be fixed NOW problem! What if there is a barn fire, or some other danger, and you can't walk your horse out that darn gate?

This is not something you can negotiaite with her. You keep saying 'She NEVER gets away with anything!' Then turn around and say you can't lead her through the gate. She is getting away with murder.

Groundowkr has it's place. However with your horse, I think it's kind of like I was with my times tables. I learned to recite them, and could do it really well! But ask me one of them out of the blue, and I don't know it. She is going through the motions because she knows if she does, she gets a break. It isn't re-enforcing dominance, it's just another way she has you trained. 

A mare that I broke in a while ago was the QUEEN of insecurities. She wasn't taken away from her mum until she was 5. She was terrified of anything new, anything unknown. Super reactive, very cunning, lightning quick. She would decide something was scary and completely work herself up over it. Our 'calm down cue' was head to knee (When in the saddle). She could spin as fast as she wanted but she didn't get a release until she stopped and her brain kicked back in. I did not do much groundwork with her except a little lunging. Being able to do set excercises had no relevance to her when she went into her zone - The leadership and assertiveness I showed was what counted, and you don't get that from practicing excercises, its an attitude and body lnaguage 100% of the time when you are handling them. If you don't have it, you better learn, because no amount of set excercises are going to replace it. 

Here is what I would do if I were you. I would get that darn horse through the gate, no arguments. No 'One step forward without freaking so I quit'. There might be shorts breaks of pressure when we get a try, but we would not stop until we got through the gate. It is not a difficult task, it is not complicated. 

I would hire or borrow some portable panels and set them up as wings either side of the gate. If you get enough, I would close the back too so she is in a yard, but that isn't necessary. One person is wearing gloves, and holding the end of a long, strong lunge line, running to a rope halter. This person stands through the gate and to the left a little so they are protected behind the fence if she runs forward. If they are worried about holding her, take a few wraps around the strainer post and hold the end so they an play the rope in and out but have more leverage. Second person has a long whip, whichever you prefer. 

Pressure on halter. If she moves forward, great, pressure off. If she freezes, it depends on the attitude. If she is focussing through the gate, she gets a few moments to suss it out and have a look before getting asked for forward again. If she is focussing elsewhere, person with the whip hunts her forward. If she runs backward, then she gets a wallop on the *** with the whip pluss pressure on the lead until she at least stands looking out the gate. If she bolts through, just keep pressure on until she stops and thinks. 

Once she is through, giver her a little chill out time. Let her graze, or take her for a walk. Just until she relaxes. Then rinse and repeat a few times.

This method has minimum risk of injury to the people and the horse. She needs to get through that darn gate and realise she isn't going to die and that you mean business.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Tank, even when grooming you are making her move, it doesn't always have to be on the lunge. If she stepped on your foot she knew exactly what she was doing. When you head for the gate and she moves around you, don't line yourself up with her to begin walking, make her get into the correct position. As long as you move she has taken on the dominant role, That is why the expression "you move, you lose". which refers to losing your dominance. Go cut yourself a 4-5' thin willowy branch and strip the leaves off. This is as effective as easier to carry than a lunge whip. As the two of you are walking and she hangs back just touch her anywhere behind her shoulder and she'll likely move forward. Don't pull on her. All forward movement comes from the hindquarters, her engine. I've pretty much parked my lunge whip for the thin willowy branch and find the horses more responsive as it seems less intrusive.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Wild Stop - I appreciate your thoughts, I agree, it has been too long of me allowing her to be in charge. But it takes more than one act of dominance to change a years worth of letting her be in charge. Based on the shape of the land, there's no way to put portable panels. I agree this is something that needs to be dealt with fast and furious. But at the same time I do believe there are a number of things wrong with her diet and health, I'd like to deal with those issues _as well_ (not instead of). In the mean time I'm realizing going through the gate isn't her only serious act of disrespect - running away on the lunge line (I'm not sure if you read my follow up post, I think on page 10 xD) and other little nuances that tell me she knows she can get away from me and if she doesn't want to do what I ask she's just going to walk away. I think I need to fix those HUGE gaps in our relationship before I attempt to do the hardest thing we've dealt with again. Clearly I need to build my confidence and reassert myself as dominant, so I'm going to work on it with the smaller battles I face with her.

Saddlebag - a branch is a good idea, yes my lunge whip is very cumbersome. You're right, I'm always pulling from her head - in my follow up, when I swung the extra lunge line around and tapped her side that Certainly worked, I didn't have the whip in my hand like Fox had suggested.

I have a game plan on how to handle this situation- I think trying to rush it will only make things worse. I think I need to restart her from the beginning - this time with me in charge.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So I've been a little nervous to post my updates, as I don't think very many people would agree with my methods. Which is why I waited so long to update. Today has proven to me that I am on the right track - so I'm more confident posting my update.

When I last posted I was planning on changing her diet - I did. She's now getting a ration balancer + hay + Smart Omega 3 and Smart Calm Ultra. Since starting her on Omega 3, she hasn't laid down to scratch her belly even once! Her belly is healing, but she still enjoys a good belly rub. She is definitely more comfortable with the bugs. Tomorrow will be her first day fully on the new diet, she's been transitioning since. I've noticed small changes - despite today's wind, the neighbors landscapers and other noisey vehicles - and even the neighbors barking dog! Tank was surprisingly calm. She still spooked a number of times alone in her field, but now where near to the extent she used to. I'm amazed at her rapid turn around, She's feeling better and better every day. If she continues to get better on this new diet I'll move her down to regular Smart Calm - as her ration balancer doesn't have the Magnesium or B1 she seems to be deficient in. I also noticed since starting this she hasn't had her eye twitch anymore either - clearly it _was_ a magnesium deficiency.

Now as far as training. I spent the first few days just lunging her walk/trot and walking her around the field. Despite constant reminders of 'who's in charge' smacks with the crop for invading my space, using the end of the rope to force her to walk forward when she was nervous, all of that. Yes, I got her to walk to all the parts of the paddock I never have before. But she was scared witless the entire time. No matter how many times we walked past the area she was still spooky there, no matter how much 'work' I made her do in that area when she was spooky, or how many spankings she got for invading my space, even if I had her yielding her front end seriously out of my space. None of those things made her not fear that corner any more. In fact, she grew to hate that area, not just because she was afraid of it, but because she knew she was going to get in trouble over there. There was no way for her to not invade my space when she's pinned between me and the 'scary place she needs to get away from'. So she began to just hate that area, she would listen, but she was miserable. She no longer greeted me at the door, I had to go chase her to catch her when it was time to work, she no longer wanted anything to do with me, even though I made every attempt to spend equal amounts of positive time with her grooming and all. She hated me and that half of her paddock - not to mention that she was _still_ afraid. 
When I say afraid here's specifically what would happen. She would walk by my side, we'd approach the corner directly across from the gate - she's walk beside me with her nose flaring and eyes wide and ears everywhere but me. I'd remind her to put her head down to help shift out of flight mode, when she was calm, a few more steps. One more step and her head would be up and her focus would be on 'scary things'. Then walking along the fence toward the direction of the gate. At this point she feels the need to look up and over the fence, not paying attention to us walking forward. I would straighten her out with the crop or extra rope, so that she's walking beside me, not walking with me but facing the fence. This was repeated hundred of times in the 20 steps we have to take before reaching the gate. Then we're at the gate, she's dancing in her skin, all sirens are on. She can barely stand still and she's pushing into my space to get away from the gate area. I reprimand that with a whack of the crop and a firm growl. She continues flipping out in place, then finally gallops off, reaching the end of the lead and then spinning around and facing me. No there isn't a way to stop her from doing this, Nothing has. Then we cut back to just before the gate and repeat this process until she walks completely by the gate without an explosion. Every day we repeated this process and everyday she grew to hate me and that area even more. And no matter how many times a day we practiced, she didn't get any better.

So I talked to a trainer who helped me with her before, who also couldn't get her out her paddock originally. I asked her if she could come try to help me again, as I've made some small progress. She asked me what I'd been doing with her and I told her everything, including the clicker training work. She said "well why not try more of that? Clearly that keeps her attention". I thought about it but was stuck in the conundrum of "I don't want to bribe her" and "I want to earn her respect". Then I talked to a CT trainer on here, who gave me some advice on how to maintain respect while doing CT and how to help her overcome her fears - Thank you very much, I won't mention your name in case this turns into a big horrible negative thing, I don't want you to be attacked, but if you want to you can say it's you. 

That morning, before I messaged the CT trainer, I worked on reteaching Tank to back-up. At this point she is hating me and my training and each time I work with her she's gotten worse. So I wanted to go back to something basic - like backing up. I started with a small amount of pressure on the rope and saying "back" and stepping into her space. She KNEW this command. But she didn't respond. So I slowly increased the pressure, giving her time to react with each gradual increase. Until, after ten minutes of her tossing her head and being rude and ignoring me. I had to yank on the rope repeatedly and push hard into her chest - JUST to get her to move 1 step back. I immediately released pressure and said "good" I rubbed out her nose and walked a small circle before asking her again. Another 10 minutes of fighting and she backed a full step. Rinse repeat again and again she would not back up until I was using as much pressure as I possibly could. I had to yank repeatedly on the rope and push into her chest to get her to budge. She had stopped trying to run away, she had just given up fighting, she just wouldn't respond to anything I did anymore. As soon as I put her lead on it's like she turned off, but instead of being good, she just turned to stone. Here's the part I'm most mortified to admit. My fiance came in right as I was trying to get her to back up, reminding myself to remain calm, but nothing was getting her to back up. I was wearing just my sneakers that day - so I kicked her in her chest to get her to back up. My fiance was quite stunned as he knows me well enough to know I'm _not_ that type of person. 

I stopped and looked at my horse who was just broken. I realized what I did and I went upstairs and cried. Maybe what I did is no big deal to most people - it may even be what some people thrive for. But that horse that day is NOT my horse!
At that point I wrote to the CT trainer.
I went downstairs again, before she responded and kissed my pony's nose. I got her lead rope, a cup full of treats attached to my belt and brought her outside. I put my hand by her chest with the treat in it and told her to 'back up'. Guess what she did? She backed up. Just 1 step, but she got her treat. 5 minutes later I could stand in front of her pick up my arms into her direction and she'd back up 3-4 steps - then C/T. In 5 minutes I achieved what I couldn't achieve in 30 minutes of aggressive fighting with my horse. 
I repeated this work for 3 more 10 minute sessions with her until she was readily backing up with just a verbal and little wave of my arms. She was excited and happy to do as I asked. Then I spent a few 10 minute sessions reminding her how to take a treat respectfully for the first 1-2 minutes, then spent 1-2 minutes on backing up, then working on teaching her to follow the crop (Which she already knew how to target). Tonight was our second time working on 'following the crop'. She followed the crop around the 'safe' area of her paddock, then we inched into the 'scary side' she was following the crop well.

We walked into the side across from the gate, she was nervous and hesitated, but she would reach to touch the crop, C/T. She was still very nervous, but touching the crop was worth it. By the end of our 10 minutes of following the crop she was touching the crop, on the gate! with her nose for a C/T!!! As of tonight she was nervously following the crop through the 'scary' area. She did NOT invade my space a single time, she was nervous, but would put her head down to touch the crop, staying out of flight mode, she didn't spook or get worked up like before - she didn't fight me or gallop off, she stayed, with her head low, touching the crop. She was still very hesitant, and still very tense the entire time - but in our first session on the 'scary' side - she did Incredibly well - already 100 times better than with negative reinforcement+negative punishment. 

Clearly not all horses are the same and those other methods probably do work with most horses, and maybe they'd work with my horse if someone else did them - I could be doing something wrong, but clearly it's not how her and I communicate in an effective way.

She has excelled SO far in such a short time - I am very proud of us. Despite our new training style, she is still being made to respect my space and still being made to be respectful. She is getting much better. I'm very happy with our current results, the next two days I work full days so I'll only be able to do 1 session a day so I'm not going to attempt to leave, just continue 'following the crop' through the 'scary' area, until she is perfectly comfortable. Then I'll be breaking it into baby steps, following the crop with the gate open, then around the outside gate area, then we'll progress from there  

Thank you _all_ for your very good advice - I'm sure the advice I didn't take or didn't work for me and my horse is still good advice and I'm sure there are people and horses it does work for. But I'm happy with the wonderful results I'm seeing.


----------



## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

You _should _be proud!! Every little step to a horse owner having issues is a very big deal - only another horse owner would ever understand. Last fall, my QH had a major scare one day while I had her out front grazing (just on the lead rope), when someone decided to go over to the US Forest land adjoining ours and proceed to fire off an _hour's worth _of ammunition for target practice (it's normally silent where we live here in a wilderness setting, outside of the expected 1 or 2 distant shots @ hunting season)... it also didn't help that it was uber windy by then as well. It took me what seems like _forever _to get her to be led on her lead rope without rearing!!! I've worked and worked meticulously, and as you're discovering, _patience, repetition and perserverence _works!! What would seem to an average person, "what's the big deal?", was a _milestone _for us when I got her to be obedient and trained on the lead again!! So glad for you, and keep up the good work!!


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Whew *lets out a giant breath* I was so expecting a firing squad with that last post xD Thanks Northern!! I am very excited - I had to remember, she is her own self, she won't progress at the same speed or with the same methods as 'everyone else'. 

You poor thing, I can't stand the crazy macho men who do things like that -.-' We used to live with a construction company on either side of our barn - so of course whichever day I set out to be Tank's big training day was the day the construction companies did their noisiest projects. Once they had a chainsaw going louder than most motorcycles - I went over to ask how long they'd be doing that, they had an engine bigger than my car's engine on the biggest chainsaw you'd ever believe - they were trimming the freaking hedges!! It took all I had not to ask them what they were compensating for ^^'

I am actually very proud of my girl - she's come quite far, even if it seems like nothing. I'm also working on playing some other games with her - I'm planning on getting rid of the crop target and rather work with teaching her to keep her shoulder on my hand. So wherever I put my hand she'll put her shoulder. That's our goal once we successfully maneuver '_the gate'_.


----------



## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Sounds like an excellent next goal!!! Best of luck, and don't ever think that 'it seems like nothing', because any of us who's been through issues before can relate - I was waiting for confetti to fall from the sky when Star was calm and obedient on the lead again!


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Whew *lets out a giant breath* I was so expecting a firing squad with that last post xD Thanks Northern!! I am very excited - I had to remember, she is her own self, she won't progress at the same speed or with the same methods as 'everyone else'.
> 
> You poor thing, I can't stand the crazy macho men who do things like that -.-' We used to live with a construction company on either side of our barn - so of course whichever day I set out to be Tank's big training day was the day the construction companies did their noisiest projects. Once they had a chainsaw going louder than most motorcycles - I went over to ask how long they'd be doing that, they had an engine bigger than my car's engine on the biggest chainsaw you'd ever believe - they were trimming the freaking hedges!! It took all I had not to ask them what they were compensating for ^^'
> 
> I am actually very proud of my girl - she's come quite far, even if it seems like nothing. I'm also working on playing some other games with her - I'm planning on getting rid of the crop target and rather work with teaching her to keep her shoulder on my hand. So wherever I put my hand she'll put her shoulder. That's our goal once we successfully maneuver '_the gate'_.


I'm seriously wondering what scares or scared her so much in these spots.......


----------



## RedBlaze (May 31, 2011)

I haven't read through all the comments, so I don't really know if this has already been suggested. If you feed her grain, you could start in the middle of the pasture, where she feels comfortable and each day move her bucket a bit closer to the gate or paddock exit. You could also try putting her buddy in the paddock with her, and leading him out with her. Or try the buddy with her, and if she doesn't go, just get close as you can to the gate where she feels comfortable, pet her then turn back around and walk her away, do it a couple more times then try seeing if she will take a step or to toward the gate then reward and walk her away. I've never had a horse with this problem so I may be no help at all, but good luck with her.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Desert- ya know I was really trying to analyse those spots and I have a few ideas of what it is. The first, she can see the backdoor of the barn from the gate of her paddock. I, not knowing she'd be such a lunatic, would go out the door without warning, or push the wheel barrow out the door, which the metal stand would smack on the cement foundation of the door. Which would scare the crap out of her. I thought it was just her getting used to our new home. So, just a couple days ago, I saw her on that side of the paddock so I practiced with her with just me coming in and out until she'd stay calm with her head down even if I popped out or ran out the door. Then practiced for a while with the wheel barrow. I just have to be sure that I call her name when I'm coming out so she knows it's me not a monster.
The other thing is that's where my AC is - I didn't even think of that until we were working on that end and my fiance turned it out and she just about exploded inside herself - but she did stay still which was very good. So it's a new noise she's not used to.
The other thing is the dumpster for the poop- which can make a lot of metallic noise when I go in with the wheel barrow, I practiced that with her too, she still doesn't like it but doesn't flip anymore.
The only other thing that I never really thought of, but now I'm thinking this maybe the real route. All on the other side of her paddock on that side, right up to the side of the fence - is seriously overgrown with weeds up to 4-5 feet of it. So she may be scared of what may pop out of the weeds. Particularly because we do have a gopher who had a hole in her paddock (I covered it with a rock so hopefully he won't be back inside) - but having actually seen a creature come running out of the weeds may have affirmed her fears, even though it wasn't going to eat her. 
The property is rented and we just moved in - it was left empty for a whole lot of summer months so it got nasty overgrown. I weed whacked a path in her paddock, to get her to her stall the first time. Then she cleared out the rest of her paddock. But her's was in the best condition anyway. So I think I'm going to borrow my family's weed whacker again to see if I can clear out at least the part that touches her fence, between her paddock and the unusable one behind her's (stupid black walnut trees).
Desert, I just want to say, thank you again SO much for all your fantastic help with her diet, she really likes her new food and - I may be imagining this - but I think she already looks better  I'll get pics in a few weeks, but her fat roll behind her shoulder is getting softer and less defined and the ring of fat over the base of her tail is gone! But that's also from the decrease in her old grain I made before. I just feel she's getting so much healthier.

Red blaze - yes - those are great ideas! I do plan on using the pony outside her paddock to help her feel more comfortable leaving and going to him - unfortunately they can't be turned out together cause she'll kill him (intentionally or not). But those are good ideas, thanks


----------



## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I guess I'm confused. On another forum you said you're a horse trainer. How are you a trainer, and still having all these issues with your mare? How are you not willing to LISTEN to the advice given here? I've seen some fantastic advice, and you poo poo it and move on.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh dear......not a very confident horse you have there....
I had one who was scared of his own shadow...about ready to jump out of his hide for every little thing....that had to do with people. When there were no people involved and he could see it, better yet touch it, he was okay. Big agricultural machinery ...nit even a blink...trucks, helicopters and such....not a blink ...somebody working behind the barn with him in....up under the roof he went. And nothing, absolutely nothing would bring him back down...except seeing the culprit. This horse was NEVER by himself, his buddy was extremely "shockproof", nothing rattled him.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Punks, sounds like she doesn't trust you as a leader if she's not trusting you to lead her somewhere. You're telling her "it's safe" but she isn't believing you (possibly because you're not confident yourself after her initial resistance). So she's decided a big boogie man lives outside her paddock, and won't be convinced otherwise until you've asserted your authority on all matters (boogie or otherwise).

What I'd do with her is what I did with Brock when he became a complete nightmare to lead (and whenever he tries this on now). Brock, on a bad day, will refuse to take a step out of his paddock. He'll throw his head up, rear, try and push me over, try and turn around and gallop back home. Sometimes he'll spin and start striking. So what I do is this:

I get a good driving whip (find them to be a perfect length for groundwork) and I move him around the paddock, controlling every change of direction or gait. If he tries to go left and I want right, I head him off. If he looks like stopping I drive him on, give him a lick across the hocks if he doesn't obey. We do this for about 10 mins. I go over, stroke his head once, turn and walk away, indicating him to follow. If he does, great. If he doesn't, another 5 mins moving him around the paddock. (I never expend a heap of energy, just move toward him, crack the whip if necessary and make him move off.)

Once he starts following me we walk around for a while, and I get him to stop when I stop and walk when I walk - but never get his nose in front. I then put on a good rope headcollar, clip a 12ft lead on and start asking for backing up. He does it, is praised, we move on. He tries to eat grass, I jerk the lead and say "up", he lifts his head. 

Once I'm satisfied his entire attention is on me and ONLY then, I lead him through the gate, whip still in my left hand and upright. If he shows the least bit of attention to anything else I give a quick little jerk on the headcollar to say "hey, pay attention". If he starts shifting into my space I show the whip (just means moving it quietly into his line of sight) or flick the lead loop toward his nose. If he acts jumpy, I don't soothe (which rewards the silly behaviour), I say "Oi!" or "Git out!" and give a quick pull on the lead before he thinks to get his front hooves in the air. I never pull constantly (he'll ignore or fight that), it's always a quick jerk. It usually doesn't need repeating but if he doesn't listen then he gets a bigger jerk and a loud but low verbal growl. Mostly he just leads nose to my shoulder on a slack line - entirely different to if I don't do the initial paddock stuff.

This also worked for getting him to go to a "scary" spot in the arena, where he'd always back up rapidly, and twice bucked me when I pushed him there. Chased him round, had him follow, led him to the spot (no leadrope needed) and made him stand there. Never had a problem riding him there again.

Back in the stables when I handled him daily he only needed the lesson once but since I can't see him regularly now I've started doing it every time. Some days I only need 2 mins before I'm satisfied I've got his full attention, but we never go anywhere til I'm satisfied because if I lose the battle it's going to be hell from thereon in. It's probably a slower way than others but it's never failed me and doesn't require anything expensive like a roundyard or moveable fencing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I've trained a number of horses, i'm not a trainer, i don't think i'd ever call myself an actual trainer. But i've trained and retrained a number of horses at our rescue and for a few people in the public as well as some friends. I'm a licensed recreational and therapeutic riding instructor, not trainer - i'm sorry if i miss stated that somewhere i'll be glad to go correct that if i did miss-speak. 

As for 'dismissing their ideas' i haven't dismissed a single idea. Every single idea they presented i have thoroughly thought over, most of the ideas i have physically tried with this horse. The only ideas presente that have made any sort of progress is the clicker training and the diet change. I did try forcing her, making her submit, i tried using a crop to drive her from the hind end. But if those methods couldn't even get her to be comfortable walking near the closed gate, obviously it's not going to work to get her through it open. I have sincerely thought and tried almost every method presented, those i chose not to do i found too dangerous and perhaps out of my skill level. I can't stop my horse if she decides to gallop off, so i can't use the method of 'hazing' her. Maybe someone else can, the trainer i hired couldn't. 

I have followed a method people have presented to me on here, so is your problem simply that the one you liked didn't work for my horse? Some horses don't deal well with pressure. I applied all the pressure and fight i had and my horse shut down. 
When a horse gets to the point that the moment you clip a lead on them they freeze clearly something has gone wrong And communication was lost. I forced her into something she wasn't comfortable with - that has lost me any trust i had ever gained from her. In her eyes i just fed her to the wolves, that doesn't make her respect me, just fear and hate me. 

The methods i tried and didn't work and the methods i didn't try are alll valid, useful methods and they probably do work for other horses. I know more than a few i've used similar techniques for similar issues and had wonderful success. That's why i had suh an issue here, the obvious methods weren't working. But they are fine and good methods for other horses and i've learned alot from this thread and am happy to do some of those other ideas for other horses who may benefit from it in the future.

I appreciate all the time and effort people put into helping me, you taught me alot, and so has my horse.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

That last post was for msbehavin, didnt see the other two till just now.

Desert, she has no confidence, but i'm working on building it by making that area a positive place for her. That sounds so frustrating with the horse and shadow >.<

evil- yes that's exactly what i did, i know my latest update was long. Fox and some other recommended something similar. But i found hitting her with a stick certainly made her goto those scary places, but she now had even more reason to be afraid of them. Every time we went over there i needed to whack her, because gentle didn't make her go. I always gradually increase pressure. But it just taught her that that area means she's going to be scared and get hit with a stick. Then she saw me as the culprit, which made her hate me, not respect me. Fear and respect may look similar and get similar results, but not in this case. It resulted in her shutting down and nothing i did, no matter how much force would get her to go anywhere. She would just freeze in the lead rope and kind of shiver. 
You're absolutely right, she needs to trust me more, but hitting her didn't gain trust only fear. 
Not to say that method wouldn't usually work, most horses you push them into a scary place and they realise 'oh you were right it's not scary' and determine to trust you. I forced my horse into a scary place and it was still scary for her, and she in turn decided i'm no longer to be trusted as i put her in dangerous places.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Punks, I wasn't finished with my post, phone decided it had enuff;-)

Im not a trainer or a NH guru. I only have a few years experience (44). So I might not be in any position to give you advice on that;-)
But, what I learned with this freak if mine....getting rough, mad or sneaky didn't help at all. 
What made html live that long was being with his herd who gave him security. So, question is, is it possible to put the pony in with her? Weeds need to be cleaned out, in and around her paddock so she can see. You changed her diet already, to stop her from having excess energy. You work her now. All good. But she has trust issues. 
What somewhat worked for my lunatic was acting as if there was nothing scary, as if he wasn't totally unreasonable with his reactions, not feeling either mad or sorry for him but at the same time not letting him get away with murder. 
Very hard sometimes, VERY hard. 
Im a believer in treats sometimes, haven't tried CT, I make it as easy as possible for the horse to do the right thing. 
Now, where she's at, I'd insist on good behavior at her comfortable places but would bring her to scary spots and just make her stand where she is still okay and try for one more step towards it. Praise her and take her away. Just THAT. No more.

You might want to look into Bach Flower remedies.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Glad you seem to have worked stuff out, Punks! But you don't drive her to the scary place with a stick with the method I use, you merely use the whip (and frankly I only use it with Brock because he's butt-lazy) to move them round the paddock. The whip isn't used to force them into an uncomfortable place but to get the horse following you and seeing you as leader before the uncomfortable place is tackled. Brock is certainly not a horse to force out of his comfort zone - one experienced horsewoman tried and he went crazy and backed up so fast that sparks flew from his shoes. But by establishing leadership *beforehand* I can lead him past any frightening place, challenging colt, mountain of hay or flirty mare, and he won't even pause to think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> I've trained a number of horses, i'm not a trainer, i don't think i'd ever call myself an actual trainer.


That's interesting, because I've seen you call yourself "a licensed horse trainer."


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh no! Please can you tell me what thread i said something like that on?! I definitely want to correct that! I only have 3 horse related licenses, carriage driver, mass riding instructor and path intl certified instructor. I honestly must have mispoke! Maybe i meant "i'm a licensed trainer" meaning people trainer, not horse.
I've only had 8 years experience with 1 trainer and a few years of me training our horses and for friends - that does not make me a trainer and i know it! 
I really feel bad if i misspoke or made myself ou to be what i'm not. Please let me know so i can fix it.


----------



## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

Oh don't worry, you went on a massive post-deleting spree on the forum where you made those comments, so they exist only in other people's quoting of your posts before you deleted them.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Please, don't let us go to the "dirty-laundry" stage here too.
If I remember right there is a thread here on this forum which states that "anything you do with your horse is training".....or something along that line....WHICH IS TRUE

Any trainer can be at a loss with a certain problem, period. And if a trainer says it never happened, I wouldn't trust him/her from here to the next cigarette machine.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have trained several horses. The horse that I ride now was way too difficult for me to start, so I sent her out to someone with more ability. She also had a difficult time with her, but she is more stubborn (and a lot younger) than I am. The horse is doing pretty good now. I don't think that there is anything that makes me a bad horseman because I had problems with a particular horse. Tank is most likely one of those difficult horses. We've all seen them.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Draft, if you saw that forum you know exactly why i deleted those posts, those people were horrible. I can generally take constructive criticism - but they were just horrible. The comment that threw me over the edge was when someone told me i should euthanize her because i'm obviously a completely incapable handler and my horse was better off dead. 
I was not going to just stay there and be attacked. 

If i said i was licensed i was wrong, it's not what i meant.

Thanks you guys, that made me feel better, yes she is very tough. And if the other trainers i hired had been successful i'd agree that it's just me being incapable. But everyone seemed to have the same amount of trouble, even veteran licensed trainers.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Please do not bring drama from other forums here.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sorry Tiny,

So I was just going to let this thread go, but then something happened today and I decided I had to do just one more update.

I went to do more clicker following around the scary area of her paddock, but she was already over there. So we started in that section, in the first minutes she was already touching the gate with her nose for her C/T so I decided it would be worth practicing our following just working around the open gate. 
So I opened it, she was nervous at first, but probably because I was excited, I took some calming breaths and had her follow the crop just outside the gate- She DID! She walked right out the gate, touched, C/T. Then I just stopped and let her graze a bit, she was on edge, kind of dancing around, looking around everywhere, but she was outside her gate. After a couple minutes I picked her up and worked on a bit more of our following the crop game, she did very well, she walked over and touched the crop sitting on the dumpster, which is a good 30 feet away from her gate. She was doing so well I decided to push my luck and take her as far as the furthest paddock. From that spot you can see/hear the street traffic and can see everything around us - the crop and hay field and the neighbor's landscaping machines everything. She walked RIGHT over following the crop. When I stopped she fussed for a little minute, walked around me sorta like lunging, but not with intent. She stayed with the lead rope slack the entire time, walked around me and looked every where. I stopped and sighed loudly and she looked at me and sighed too! Then she put her head down and grazed. I rubbed her and scratched her belly and told her what a wonderful horse she was and fed her the rest of the treats in my cup xD After a few minutes we went back, while she was still loving it out there - so she'll wanna go back 

Unfortunately I had to lock her up just a few minutes after we got back, hopefully she doesn't connect those dots. But I had to go out.

I'm SOOO proud of my horse!! She came so far today! I think I might just explode.

Thank you all so much for all your help, it's meant so much to me, you all taught me a great deal! 

Evil - I'm sorry I misread your post, I thought you meant whacking them to make them walk forward when your leading. It sounds like you did what I did in my first update  Round penning without a round pen xD That did help us both a great deal, she stopped pulling on the lead and stopped running away when she got overwhelmed and stayed with me instead, but it didn't make her go places she was afraid to unfortunately. That was very good advice though, sorry I read it wrong.

Desert - You so rock, I so appreciate everything you've done to help my horse. I wish I could put the pony in with her, he's only ever gotten in with her once by accident and before I could blink she had him pinned to the gate ready to double barrel kick him, I screamed and she ran off before she killed him - thank god. I think they might be ok in their new paddock, because he has enough room to get away from her, but he so loves to pick fights and if she so much as flicks him wrong she's big enough to do serious damage. I'm also concerned if she spooks she'd run him over or something. So they can't.
The other method, of just going as far as she's comfortable and then letting her stand and figure it out - that's exactly what I did with her at our last home. Just took it realllllyyy slow. That was my plan at our new home, and our first day going out it worked wonders. But then the second time trying resulted in disaster, so I was done with being patient with her. I think that method would still have worked, but every inch she goes is another day of getting comfortable. She doesn't make much progress or get comfortable with anything very easily. But I figure if I make 'new' places as wonderful as possible she'll always want to go somewhere new. 

Now! to show of my joy!
Tank after just a minute or two outside in the big open area, looking around trying to decide whether it was wonderful or awful xD









Tank, deciding it's pretty wonderful


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

good work


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Good for you. I just watched an interesting video on rewarding and endorphin levels. There was a belief that enforphins peaked at the receiving of the reward. What was discovered was that endorphins are much greater when a challenge is perceived that will be followed with a reward. This is why clicker / treat training can work so well. Do you click when she does as requested? The click teaches that the reward is coming. The handler is buying time if the hands are full but the horse knows it's coming. I just make a cluck sound with my tongue as I need my hands instead of trying to hold a clicker.


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Good to hear
Maybe with time she could accept the pony. I'd keep trying, maybe on neutral territory.

And with Tank, even if she spooks of these days, keep your calm and finish with positive. That's what she'll remember and carry over to the next time.
Nice place you got there


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Saddlebag- that's very interesting! It makes sense and I'm sure those positive thoughts help her come out of her 'I'm scared I can't handle this' mind set. Yes I use a click, well I 'smooch' for the same reason of not wanting to carry a clicker around. I've even begun clicking and treating for her responding calmly in a situation she'd typically be nervous. Today, while we were out, there's a particular bush we pass that was making her nervous, I let her stand there and look at it and when she softened up and stopped being so concerned, I clicked and treated. Waited a while more, she was calm more, Click treat and walk away. I repeated this at each thing she was nervous with, and by the 3rd thing it only took her a second to realize that calm was the response I was looking for and she got nervous - stopped and calmed herself. I don't plan on using that long, I don't want to build a chain command of her looking to get upset then become calm again, but today she made great strides. She also is backing up about 5-6 steps without stopping with me just picking up my hands in her direction.  I'm so proud of her!

Desert - haha thanks xD We're just renting, but I loveee it! I would love if she could be with the pony but I think she needs to calm a little and he needs to mature a little, he loves to pick fights, they used to share a fence and he'd go over and she'd groom him, then he'd bite her just to make her mad  little dirt bag is always looking for a fight - thus his new name, Rebel. and Yes I'm working very hard to shift Tank and my own mentalities both to focus more on the positive and learn from our positive experiences.


ALLL this being said Tank is STILL being held to strict standards, she is still getting a whap if she invades my space (which she has NOT sense the day I psuedo-round penned her) She is still being made to lead respectfully and never pull on the rope. She hasn't even tried to get away from me since our psuedo round penning either. She also comes Running to me when she sees me with the lead rope, very excited for our training now. She seems to be excited to try and figure out what new game I have for her to figure out today.  I love seeing her like this, she is truly herself in the best of ways!


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Just be sure to take her out of the pen every day. Preferably several times a day. Pretty soon she will follow you right out because she will consider it the norm. She will do it because she will understand that is what horses do.


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Yup i have been! She's doing great she made it as far as the edge of my riding area comfortably today- she did great! Theres tall grass bordering the riding area that i need to fix before going through it with her - but it was quite the success!! She is really getting the hang of it. When we were by the neighbor's yard (which is massive) i think she just about exploded in joy. She started trotting around me and doing little bunny hops and squealing! But she never let the rope get taught she just did what she just jumped aroun excited xD i dont think she's seen that much open space in a loonnngg time  or ever! She got scared o my car coming back but within 2 minutes of clicking when she came closer she was touching the car with her nose! The same for a blue pallet we passed later  she's doing so well! I want to get a friend to come with me and take her and the pony for a longer walk out in the hay field out back  i'm so thrilled


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Uh-oh.....tall grass..............THAT'S where mosquitoes and other bugs hang out during non-fly time. I think if you'd have BF cut it, especially around and in paddock and near the horses you might have less of an itching problem.
At first you'll have tons of homeless bugs swarming but they will go away and maybe find other targets
=
a less bothered Tank


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Yes absolutely - unfortunately my boy doesn't do the whole outdoors thing. The people we rent from have a company to mow the lawn but have been told not to touch the horse area (by the owners not me). I asked if i could pay them extra to clean up those areas, they say at the point it's at they'd have to bring in a group of people with weed whackers and would have to ask their boss as it would be tough on their tools. So i'm whacking away at it myself a little at a time. Starting with the parimeter of her paddock


----------



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Gotta get him trained.....;-)


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Haha here i thought i was supposed to train the horses not the boy! XD i don't mind he's paying for my ferret's surgery - i'll let him gt away with not mowing the lawn


----------



## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Congratulations on such a _huge _turning point!!! I'll bet you were wearing the same "perma smile" I had when I got Star on the lead again after her episode.... She looks amazingly like the Morgan I've had for 6 wks now, btw! I'll have to round up some of the other photos I have of her. What is Tanks registered name, if you don't mind my asking? (New to the Morgan World, and finding her pedigree interesting) Again, so happy for you and Tank!


----------



## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

North thanks!! Absolutely perma smile! I'm so freaking thrilled for her, especially seeing how happy she was getting excited over the open space. Now i gotta teach her to ride better so we can gallop across it!! xD
I want pics of your morgan! I love morgans! Tank is actually a Canadian horse, the ancestor breed of a morgan, basically the draft version of a morgan. I think she's registered my vet had her checked and it said there was a micro chip, but the reader couldn't recognize it- i think it may be canadian. She was bought through the auctions bounced all around with pmu foals which is what she was assumed to be. Until she settled with the trainer who gave her to me, who called her a perch morgan cross. There's actually a few canadian breeders near me i'm going to visit to see if they may know anything about her but i think they're roo careful to let one of theirs go to auction.


----------

