# Post-delivery complications with TB Rachel Alexandra



## CCH

I've seen the web links on Facebook and read them. It kind of sounds like fancy talk for colic surgery. Bruising is not something you surgically remove. Now she could have ruptured the area from straining or a hoof and that would require repair. Or she could have possibly had some hemorrhaging that required them to remove the damaged tissue. 140lbs a big foal any number of things can go wrong when foaling. I'm glad they got her to a vet in time. It is nice that they are keeping her fans updated even if it is a little vague.


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## rookie

my guess is colic, or rupture/repair. Its more likely colic as the rupture and perforation would require much more work. Bruised intestine sounds like code for necrotic (dead) tissue. Which is a serious condition and would require the removal of that section. The horses with that surgery do okay. Post foaling colic is not terribly uncommon. They often go to surgery because the value of the mare is basically doubled when it has a foal on the ground. Not in the value of the foal but in the value of the mare to be able to take care of that foal. Nursing an orphan is no fun and finding a suitable nurse mare is tricky and expensive.


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## Maple

rookie said:


> my guess is colic, or rupture/repair. Its more likely colic as the rupture and perforation would require much more work. Bruised intestine sounds like code for necrotic (dead) tissue. Which is a serious condition and would require the removal of that section. The horses with that surgery do okay. Post foaling colic is not terribly uncommon. They often go to surgery because the value of the mare is basically doubled when it has a foal on the ground. Not in the value of the foal but in the value of the mare to be able to take care of that foal. Nursing an orphan is no fun and finding a suitable nurse mare is tricky and expensive.


 
Any money says that there is a nursemare already well in place. I know over here there are some places that's sole business is to supply nurse mares to large breeding operations if something should happen to the dam. 

I'm hoping for a full, speedy recovery. Only the other day I was admiring all the photos of the foal on facebook - amazing how quickly things can change.


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## rookie

You may be right Ireland, I only know of one farm who ended up using a nurse mare and it was from a farm that specifically bred mares to be used as nurse mares. That said thoroughbreds at this level are a whole other ball of wax. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. I am also not sure where the jockey association in the USA stands on embryo transfer horses. Does anyone on the forum?


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## Left Hand Percherons

Another example how the Jockey Club needs to get with the 20th Century and allow embryo transplants (and AI) on their mares. What's the harm in having a genetically less valuable mare carry her foal? If she's had complications with both deliveries, this one should be her last.

I also question the attending vets who could allow the foal to reach 140#. That's larger than a draft foal.

All these TB farms employ nurse mares. They are often better qualified to raise the foals than their dams.


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## egrogan

Maple said:


> Any money says that there is a nursemare already well in place.


Yes, all the articles have said the foal is very healthy and went on a nursemare last night.


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## rookie

Left Hand Percherons, its really difficult to deliver a live foal prematurely. The saying is that the foal decides the foaling date. If you go in and try to do a C-section on a mare thats not actively foaling then you are just killing the foal. Which is really different from dogs and cats where you can sort of play with due dates and still get a live baby. Induction of labor is the same thing, if the baby is not "ready" then its not going to live. The mare can decide the hour but the baby decides the date.


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## Celeste

Embryo transfer would surely be a better plan. It is crazy to risk a mare like this.


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## egrogan

Not looking good: Rachel Alexandra's condition "very serious" following surgery | Daily Racing Form or http://link.brightcove.com/services...VwfoJ0rgqddiXEN769O1Jswvu&bctid=2165778455001 

Would be sad for the racing world to lose a mare like this.

ETA: Of course, it's heartbreaking to lose any of them. One thing's for sure, I don't have the stomach for putting a mare in foal. I just couldn't deal with the "what ifs"- if a multi-million dollar mare with the best care in the world can go through this, it just makes you think about what a crapshoot it is.


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## sunset878

A nurse mare has to have a foal of her own to nurse another foal. In Aust some large breeding farms breed their mares to be used as nurse mares, and when their foals are born they are usually put down. I know a lady who rescued some of these foals and I bought 2 from her. They are now 17 months old and are growing into beautiful horses, and I will train them for trail riding when they are old enough.


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## dbarabians

Most mare foal without complications and very little distress or discomfort.
that was one large foal as most are about 125. If Rachel alexandra recovers she will probably be bred back this year or next. the resulting foal will be worth millions potentially. He r value as a broodmare demands this. Shalom


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## rbarlo32

The nurses mares foal is being hand raised.
Stonestreet Farm: LatestNews


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## Celeste

I am so glad that they care enough to take care of the nurse mare's babies. I feel so sorry for them. The little foal looks alike a happy little baby!


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## egrogan

Seems like Rachel Alexandra may have turned a corner. According to this story, she is at least eating a bit now: Rachel Alexandra remains stable Monday | Daily Racing Form


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## albertaeventer

*fingers crossed* that she makes a full recovery!!


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## Endiku

Someone needs to buy Ojho's biological filly for me  that little gal is adorable!


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## Nightside

Not to make light of a hurting horse, but did anyone else spot the pun?

Remains stable?

...yeah, I'm terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gogaited

dbarabians said:


> Most mare foal without complications and very little distress or discomfort.
> that was one large foal as most are about 125. If Rachel alexandra recovers she will probably be bred back this year or next. the resulting foal will be worth millions potentially. He r value as a broodmare demands this. Shalom


She's had two pregnancy and severe complications with both. Only the love of the almighty dollar demands she be bred again.


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## dbarabians

gogaited, as I said the foal could be worth millions. Its breeding potential and racing career would force most breeders to make that decision.
If she is unable to carry a foal then her value is the same as any horse at a public auction.
I am not saying its moral but a breeder needs to recoup any profit when they can. that is simple financial logic. we are not talking about Backyard Betty here. Shalom


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## Celeste

There are millions of dollars at stake here. If she is unable to produce foals, she may end up in lasagna.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

Celeste said:


> There are millions of dollars at stake here. If she is unable to produce foals, she may end up in lasagna.


Is it wrong that I suddenly feel hungry?


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## dbarabians

evilhorseofdoom You just aint right.
Rachel Alexandria is a horse that can not only impact a breed with her offspring but a sport as well. Her popularity gained racing a new audience and renewed interest.
Her foals that reach the track can do the same thing. Shalom


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## trailhorserider

I really don't get it. There are lots of horses out there that are nothing but money pits. Their owners simply have them because they love them. Maybe they ride for pleasure or maybe the horse is just a lawn ornament.

So if a big-name race horse can no longer breed, that's too bad, but why do we then deem them worthless? Only fit for an auction or meat? Honestly? 

I would think (hope?) Rachel Alexandra has earned her retirement if she can no longer be a broodmare. Surely her owners love her or would get her to a home that appreciates her? Even as a pasture pet.....right? Who wouldn't love to have Rachel Alexandra in their barn? 

So if a lowly grade horse or pleasure horse can be a money pit and have a great home, why do we think famous racehorses are worthless if they can no longer race or breed. Doesn't anyone love horses just for the sake of loving horses anymore? 

Unfortunately lots of "lower end" horses fall through the cracks. And occasionally a famous one like Ferdinand. But why do we not think successful racehorses have earned a retirement or second career as a pleasure horse after racing? Why must they continue to be money makers forever or be deemed worthless? They have done more to earn their keep that just about any other segment of the horse population.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

dbarabians said:


> evilhorseofdoom You just aint right.
> Rachel Alexandria is a horse that can not only impact a breed with her offspring but a sport as well. Her popularity gained racing a new audience and renewed interest.
> Her foals that reach the track can do the same thing. Shalom


Hopefully even if she can't breed she could go to one of those retirement farms for champion racehorses. We have one here (mostly filled with geldings) called Living Legends - people can visit them and buy memorabilia and stuff.

Hope she pulls through OK and has a happy ending...

(Still want my lasagna though...)


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## dbarabians

Her value is based on what she can produce.
She can have a retirement no one has said she couldnt. If it is possible for this mare to carry a foal her value is greatly increased. Anyone owning a share of this mare would desire a return of their investment Millons of dollars probably.
If not then what is she worth?
Allow me to inform you that I have 28 horses. Most are over 18 YO and some in their mid 20's to early 30's.
We are not discussing a horse only worth hundred or even thousands of $. that des not even speak of the interest her foals that are sold or reach the track would recieve. Millions of dollars are at stake and the continutity and success of the owners breeding program.
The profit made from this mare and her foals would ensure the breeding program of the owners for years. Breeding horses is a business and an expensive one. 
Once again we are not discussing an average horse here. she is a well bred talented mare that can command a breeding by any of the sires of the TB industry . Her importance as a broodmare is great not only to the TB but to the sport of racing. Shalom


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## jumanji321

If she can't have babies they can send her to me!


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## dbarabians

If she is insured and probably is then the insurance company may have the final say in when and if she is bred again. The vet says she can carry a foal the insurance company might demand that she be bred before paying out any claims.
I am a breeder and there are mares here that i am attached to. Yet if they cannot contribute to this breeding program or do not produce good foals they have to go. Horses are expensive and time consuming. Shalom


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## texasreb

They could do ET's for the Quarter Horse racing industry. That would recoup some of her value. Who wouldn't want a little Appendix Rachel Alexandra?


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## Celeste

Or somebody could get into the 21st century and allow ET with the thoroughbreds.....


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## texasreb

celeste said:


> or somebody could get into the 21st century and allow et with the thoroughbreds.....


agreed!


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## dbarabians

This mare that has a lot riding on her foals future might be the motivation behind the change. She made headlines and brought tons of interest to a sport suffering from a spell of bad luck and declining numbers.
Her breeding future will be as much about money as it is about Public relations. Shalom


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## churumbeque

dbarabians said:


> gogaited, as I said the foal could be worth millions. Its breeding potential and racing career would force most breeders to make that decision.
> If she is unable to carry a foal then her value is the same as any horse at a public auction.
> I am not saying its moral but a breeder needs to recoup any profit when they can. that is simple financial logic. we are not talking about Backyard Betty here. Shalom


 Can they not use surogates?


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## Celeste

They could use embryo transfer except that the registry won't let them.


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## jumanji321

Hmm, I just thought of this. Can they do ET and surrogates with TBs? They have to be pregnant via live cover to produce a registerable foal. Do those methods still work from live cover?


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## dbarabians

No the Jockey club does not allow for embryo transfers or artificial insemination.
So the foal would have to be born of its dam and by live cover. Shalom


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## rookie

its in part the strict adherence to tradition that is hurting the Jockey club and the industry. Its embryo transfer, live cover and extends to jockey weight limits (how many 5ft 90 pound men do you know today?), and even how they attract people to the track. Thats why the tracks are closing and those that are open are in such trouble. 

The mare is a PR minefield. No matter what you do someone will think its wrong. You don't breed her and your missing out on mega money. You do breed her and people are not happy. I think she is a celebrity in her own equine right. That said, among the average joe Q populous she is not known. People that follow racing know about this mare. She is a good mare but she is not secretariat.


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## texasreb

How is RA and her filly?


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## egrogan

From what I've read, the filly is doing great with her nursemare, and Rachel's condition is improving: Stonestreet Farm: LatestNews


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## Maple

I personally don't feel that requiring the mare to carry her own foal is a bad thing - it ensures that the mare is properly cared for throughout her pregnancy and when the foal hits the ground. How many of the average broodmares out there would be shifted to the back the property and barely looked at if they weren't going to carry their own foal? Mares receive good feed, vitamins and proper vet care - do we all think this would continue otherwise?

I think from the general public's view, they want to see this mare's foals. Heck, I get excited when we get in a foal by/out of somebody important as I'm eager to see what the foal turns out to be like.. this year we've got an alphabet soup grandbaby, and it's my pick of the bunch just because I was a fan of alphabet soup (I'm dreamin of group 1 glory here guys haha!) 

I'm delighted she has improved, and I'm sure that every possible step is being taken to achieve a full recovery.


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## BlueSpark

I'm not a fan of embryo transfer, I really think it diminishes the value of a bloodline and the resulting off spring. Say this mare had 15 foals. With embryo transfer she could easily tripple that.

Its unfortunate she is having such trouble, but with each foal being worth so much she will likely be bred again.

these high end thoroughbred brood mares are some of the best cared for, and I'm sure she is receiving the best vet care humanly possible.


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## Left Hand Percherons

BlueSpark said:


> I'm not a fan of embryo transfer, I really think it diminishes the value of a bloodline and the resulting off spring. Say this mare had 15 foals. With embryo transfer she could easily tripple that.


I don't get this logic. The top stallions are putting upwards of 600 foals on the ground in their careers. It's not diminishing their value. The mares are providing more genetic diversity.


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## Left Hand Percherons

Maple said:


> I personally don't feel that requiring the mare to carry her own foal is a bad thing - it ensures that the mare is properly cared for throughout her pregnancy and when the foal hits the ground. How many of the average broodmares out there would be shifted to the back the property and barely looked at if they weren't going to carry their own foal? Mares receive good feed, vitamins and proper vet care - do we all think this would continue otherwise?.


Any surrogate mare is going to receive top notch care. You are not going to go into ET without the best of everything to ensure that you reap your financial goal with this pregnancy. You are only going to use proven mares so you are eliminating most of the potential risk factors that happens more often with high end maiden mares. You are going to virtually eliminate the nurse mare industry as the surrogates are more suited to raising the foals. Mares such as RA are never going to be shuffled off to the back pasture.


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## Maple

Left Hand Percherons said:


> Any surrogate mare is going to receive top notch care. You are not going to go into ET without the best of everything to ensure that you reap your financial goal with this pregnancy. You are only going to use proven mares so you are eliminating most of the potential risk factors that happens more often with high end maiden mares. You are going to virtually eliminate the nurse mare industry as the surrogates are more suited to raising the foals. Mares such as RA are never going to be shuffled off to the back pasture.


I didn't say anything about the level of care of a surrogate mare, my comments were about the TBs. Yes, mares such as Rachel will receive top notch care - but for every one Rachel, there are thousands of everyday, average TB broodmares that would possibly be shoved out to the side and not receive the proper care. 

I don't feel you would eliminate the nurse mare industry - will always be a need for nurse mares because we will never elimate the risk of losing any mare, of any age/breed/side, ect.


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## BlueSpark

> I don't get this logic. The top stallions are putting upwards of 600 foals on the ground in their careers. It's not diminishing their value. The mares are providing more genetic diversity.


I dont agree with the stallions having dozens of offspring world wide every year using AI either, but to each their own.


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## dbarabians

There are thousands of jobs and many farms that only exist to provide care for those TB broodmares and their foals.
Embryo transfer does lessen the value of a broodmare. 
Rachel Alexandria and Zenyatta both are expected to only have so many foals. That increases their and their foals value immensely..
10 - 12 foals from each mare instead of 20-30 ensures those 10 foals are valuable even if they never race. Shalom


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## rookie

I think one of the pros to embryo transfer is that you could get nurse mares carrying better quality foals. Right now, farms put mares into foal with whatever as long as its living thats what matter. Which creates some less then quality horses and results in young horses without much hope of finding a home. If those foals had value they would have a better chance of finding a home. Some will say that then the nurse mare would not be separated from the foal which is a possibility. 

The thing about embryo transfer is that its so expensive right now. If your horse is not worth a certain dollar amount you are probably not going to embryo transfer on it. Which after you have spent as much as embryo costs you are going to make sure that mare and foal is well cared for.


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## Celeste

Embryo transfer will no doubt be limited to very valuable animals. I think that it would be a good thing in any breed to allow an exceptionally valuable mare to produce more than one foal a year. This is not going to increase the population of mediocre foals. It will only increase the population of good foals due to the expense of the procedure. This means that the breed will improve.


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## Left Hand Percherons

Celeste said:


> Embryo transfer will no doubt be limited to very valuable animals. I think that it would be a good thing in any breed to allow an exceptionally valuable mare to produce more than one foal a year. This is not going to increase the population of mediocre foals. It will only increase the population of good foals due to the expense of the procedure. This means that the breed will improve.


Not even taking multiple births into consideration, allowing ET gives the breed the ability to reproduce a mare with valuable genetics who could otherwise not carry a foal to term. You have to verify parentage on any ET foal in the breeds that allow it. The JC require DNA testing on every foal eligible for registration now. What are they afraid of? I think RA will at least get them talking but nothing is going to change.


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## Left Hand Percherons

BlueSpark said:


> I dont agree with the stallions having dozens of offspring world wide every year using AI either, but to each their own.


The top stallion in #s of covered mare for 2011 covered over 200 mares. Why take the chances with your multi million dollar syndicated stallion by requiring live cover?


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## rookie

why risk the people? AI is safer for the handlers because they only associate one area with the task and it can make them easier to handle around mares. They don't associate the mares with breeding. 

I do agree that the Jockey club won't change any time soon. This mare won't be more then a blip on the radar screen. Thats in part because I don't see the mares being valued as much as the stallions. Its only been in the last few years that we have heard about great mares. The same is somewhat true of geldings, really it is Cigar representing the seedless grapes club.


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## dbarabians

You still have to lead that stallion into the breeding shed to be collected. the danger is the same to any handler with live cover or AI.
Those mares are restrained and very little danger to any stallion when you are dealing with a multimillion dollar stallion. 
There have always been great fillies and mares in TB racing. Not just recently. Shalom


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## Maple

Left Hand Percherons said:


> You have to verify parentage on any ET foal in the breeds that allow it. The JC require DNA testing on every foal eligible for registration now. What are they afraid of? .


They are ensuring that the horse being registered is infact the offspring of the alleged sire and dam. It is not as simple as just having a foal and it turning into a racehorse. You have foal sales, yearling sales, breezers and then the value of the stallion can be increased greatly when the progeny do well on the track. When a horse is entered in a sale, the buyer needs to know that it is infact out of Stallion A and not some backyard stud with his legs on backwards.


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## egrogan

Just happened to catch an update on Facebook and thought I'd share for anyone still interested. To sum up, sounds like Rachel is still recovering well from the original abdominal problems, but abscessed "adjacent to her reproductive tract" and had to have it drained:
Stonestreet Farm: LatestNews

Poor girl. I really do hope she pulls through.


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## PonyPainter

egrogan said:


> Just happened to catch an update on Facebook and thought I'd share for anyone still interested. To sum up, sounds like Rachel is still recovering well from the original abdominal problems, but abscessed "adjacent to her reproductive tract" and had to have it drained:
> Stonestreet Farm: LatestNews
> 
> Poor girl. I really do hope she pulls through.


Thanks for the update. Rachel is doing well after having the area drained and Rood/Riddle is taking amazing care of her. We are close to the Jackson's and the report is positive from their end at this time.


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