# Barrel Horse with no rate..bit help?



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

First off, welcome to the forum .

Fiinx, I am willing to bet money that your mare's problem doesn't have anything to do with the bit, problems like this seldom do. First thing you should really do is have her teeth checked by a dentist and check her back to ensure that she's not in pain somewhere. 

After that's done, if her teeth/back aren't the problem, then what she needs is some re-training. If it was me, I would put her back into a simple snaffle (smooth, not twisted) and go back to working on the basics. Get her supple and responsive on the flat before you even look at the pattern again and when you do start her back, start her back slow as if she had never been patterned before.

Also, not to sound harsh, but if this is a sudden onset problem since you started riding her, perhaps you need to have a professional help you to re-evaluate the way that you ride just to see if you're doing something to cause this problem.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

She needs to come OFF the barrels until the problem is fixed. Smrobs' "general" advice is good.

Your horse does NOT need to be running right now. She needs to be learning subtleties and softness. Get her riding off of your seat and legs, not your hands. The reins/bit are not the brakes. They simply allow for ease of the rating cue. 

When you do, eventually, after a lot of re-training, come back to barrels, start with slow work. Make her trot up to the barrel, stop (on a "whoa" and sit-down command, not on a yank of the reins), back up, and wait. Do a rollback in the opposite direction if you have to to get the point across. Then walk around the barrel, trot to the next one, and repeat. Repeat the whole thing at a lope, too. Don't allow her to anticipate or to rush. If she stops rating and starts going wide, slow her back down and reinforce her stop off the seat again.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

smrobs said:


> After that's done, if her teeth/back aren't the problem, then what she needs is some re-training. If it was me, I would put her back into a simple snaffle (smooth, not twisted) and go back to working on the basics. Get her supple and responsive on the flat before you even look at the pattern again and when you do start her back, start her back slow as if she had never been patterned before.


Thank-you! This is some pretty good advice. I do have a snaffle and I will try softening her up to see if that helps. I have been watching videos of me riding her and nothing is off compared to how I have ridden her in the past and how I have ridden other horses (way too many to count) so I do know what I am doing and I have even taught horses to rate..with her if she is going at a canter or slower, she is perfect...its when we add speed that Im not sure what to do.

We did have her teeth done and her back is good. She is also on joint supplements and has the best farrier we could ask for. And she does love to run so I think that's where your advice might prove helpful!!! I think in April when I did the clinic it was my first couple runs on her and now that we are showing every weekend, she has gotten more hyped up and that might be why also...Do you think this is a possibility.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> When you do, eventually, after a lot of re-training, come back to barrels, start with slow work. Make her trot up to the barrel, stop (on a "whoa" and sit-down command, not on a yank of the reins), back up, and wait. Do a rollback in the opposite direction if you have to to get the point across.


Thank you bubba13! Grinder was a cutting horse before the last owners had her so I don't yank on her mouth at all. I have found what makes her happy is if I use both my hands and legs for a whoa.

Question..if I need to do the rollback in the opposite direction, do I go back to the starting point or circle her and try it again?


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, the Josey O-gag has pretty much no rate to speak of.

The point I disagree on with smrobs is the necessity of going back to a snaffle. I don't think that has to be the case. I would ditch the gadgety Josey combos and go to a simpler curb, though. Something like an Argentine or loose-jawed, wide-ported grazing bit, depending on how your horse works.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Rollback? Roll her around right where you stopped her, so you end up still at the entrance to your pocket. Then turn the barrel like normal.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Oh okay. That makes sense now! Thank you. can you maybe send some links of what bits you are talking about exactly so I can see what they look like?

and for getting her subtle again...do you know of any workouts i could do? 

Thanks so much I really appreciate it!


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The three above are good for general Western riding and training--they aren't specifically/necessarily barrel racing bits, but they can help you on the road to achieving brokeness.

For exercises, trail ride her! Set up some barrels/poles/cones in a _different_ pattern and work on turning those. Keep her guessing and listening to you. And keep things slow and collected for awhile.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Thank-you!! that first bit kind of reminds me of the Wonder bit except without the rings part where you can use it as a snaffle...do you think that would work the same? I know I have a wonder bit...


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bubba, one of the main reasons why I suggested the snaffle is because they are much more effective than a curb at lateral softening and it's easier to re-train a horse to bend in them. Not to mention that if you can ride a horse in a mild snaffle, they can go in just about anything and go with less cueing.

I do agree on that last curb you posted with the billy allen mouth though. I have one of those and my horse loves it.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

What is the last bit called as I havent ever seen this bit before?


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Wonder bit has gag (and loads of it), which means a lot of lift, but not much stop, and also slow action. You want fast, immediate action, for quick cues and quick reward. Like you said, you can use the Wonder bit as a regular O-ring snaffle if you choose, but it's not a good substitute for an Argentine (the bit I posted).


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Here is a link to that last bit.

Antique Low Port Hinged Futurity Bit | Pet Supplies, Horse Supplies, Dog Supplies | KVsupply.com


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

:wink:

And the reason I'm not so keen on a snaffle with a running-through-the-bit barrel horse is that the tendency is going to be to puuuuuuull them to a stop when they fight. They're already bit-sour, and this can just compound the problem and toughen their mouths up even more. It's been my experience that they're far more apt to respond to the curb, as they've been trained in and are used to its pressure.

Of course, it's not like there's a definite right or wrong way to go about this. I've just had a fair amount of personal experience with this very thing and have found this method to be effective....but in the end, whatever works, works.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes, she does have a hard mouth which i think takes softening. I think I have a bit similar to that one. I actually tried it on a simple down and back run and she still had a wide turn but I definitely felt a difference as she did slow down and turn a little better. The only difference is it is a longer shank not a short shank.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I wouldn't pull straight on a running through the bit horse in a snaffle OR curb. I would work on softening laterally and only use one rein to stop/rate for a while until they learn they can't run through the bit, they have to soften. 

OP - I agree with Smrobs about putting him back in a snaffle for a while (not forever) and doing the above. I also agree with whoever said to get her out on trails and doing some different exercises that still utilize skills you use on the pattern. Give her mind a break and do some new things - running every weekend is a lot for any horse and some horses get wound up in the head. Trail rides give them a chance to unwind a bit - especially if you can lope along on a loose rein - it's nice to give them a chance to stretch out and run sometime other than at a show or on a pattern. It is also a good chance to work on rate and body control at faster speeds but without the pressure or time constraints.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

I tried a snaffle this morning on her and all we did was walk. She stops fine still as I use my legs to stop her. I went on a trail ride also and she did good...My problem came when I was trying to soften her at the poll. She grabs the bit and instead of giving into the pressure like other horses I have ridden, she would hold on and pull against it. I did no barrel work what so ever and even took them completely down and out of the arena. I ended up getting frustrated after asking nicely for her head and she still refused to give it. Im not sure what else I can do..I don't think she is a mean horse and she wont take off with me if I dont ask her to go fast and she stops fine...but she just refuses to soften up. 

I feel completely stuck...


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Might try a short session of bitting her back so that you don't end up losing your temper with her.


----------



## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I agree with bitting up - I do this on Scooby when he wants to be fussy. It is much easier to bit him up, loose at first, and then lunge him and let him fight himself. I listen to my ipod and let him figure it out. Then when he softens, I tighten it up and let him figure out where his head needs to be to get a release from pressure.

Scooby also gets hot with a lot of barrel drills. I spent this week just walk/whoa and jog/whoa, serpentines and circles. I kept my reins loose and we ride in a snaffle, and if he didn't listen to a verbal whoa and seat cue then I followed with the reins and backed a few steps then repeated. We also do trail rides as well - lots of good advice from everybody about letting her relax under saddle by staying away from the speed and pressure. I go to a barrel clinic every Monday, and some of the horses there are nut jobs - too much speed, too much pressure, they just bolt away from it... rearing, jumping, running out of the bridle - all signs of too much speed work.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Ace80908 said:


> I agree with bitting up - I do this on Scooby when he wants to be fussy. It is much easier to bit him up, loose at first, and then lunge him and let him fight himself. I listen to my ipod and let him figure it out. Then when he softens, I tighten it up and let him figure out where his head needs to be to get a release from pressure.


Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but I've never heard the phrase bitting up ever..Could you explain it a little better?

Thanks!


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Fiinx said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but I've never heard the phrase bitting up ever..Could you explain it a little better?
> 
> Thanks!


It usually means putting bigger and tougher bits on the horse. I am with SMROBS. Too many people automatically go to a tougher bit when a horse gets strong. I retrain sour horses and many come with this issue. The first thing I always do is put a MUCH softer bit on a horse. It is amazing how many times this improves the horse. I think too many horses are over bitted and they are resisting and fighting the pain/strength of the bits on them.

I l*ove* bit #3 that bubba13 showed. I like Bit #2 OK, but I would avoid #1, personally. I don't like any broken mouth curb. Either go curb leverage or go snaffle "nutcracker"....both not both, IMHO.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

"Bitting up" refers to the idea of putting a horse in a harsher bit for a few rides to get their respect back and get them listening to the bit again. I am not a huge fan of people doing this unless they _really_ know what they are doing. There is a fine line between doing it right and lightening them up and doing it wrong and making them worse.

Wild_Spot hit the nail on the head, if the horse is not responding to your cues to slow and rate, then pulling harder with both reins certainly isn't going to help. Completely ditch the idea of stopping or slowing down by using both reins for a while. Start at the walk and ask for the stop with your seat and legs. If she doesn't stop, then take one rein and use a one-rein stop. Then do it again...and again...and again, switching up which rein you take to stop her. She'll soon start listening to your seat and legs and when she's solid with that, you can move up to the trot. Then, when she's solid at the trot, you can move up to the lope. When she's solid at all 3 gaits like that, then you can begin to re-introduce the two-rein stop at the beginning, with the walk. Of course, you can only do this effectively in a standard snaffle.

Clinton Anderson has an excellent video about this that I saw on TV. I can't find the video but here is a good article about it.
Clinton Anderson: Using the One-Rein Stop for Western Lope Control Slideshow

There isn't going to be a quick fix and you probably won't see improvement in just a couple of sessions. It will take lots of time, patience, and repetition.

Edited to add: Breaking at the poll often isn't something that will come in one ride. On a horse that is already bracing, you have to be that much more perfect about releasing pressure at the exact right moment. If you get her soft every other way, then breaking at the poll will come in time with proper handling.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Ok that makes sense now. Thanks. I think I will actually try riding her again later today as earlier we just did a short trail ride and walked in the arena. I have been looking everywhere to find how to soften your horse but I cant find any good topics. Is there anything that you do that works? I used a d ring snaffle with copper rollers. I didnt put a curb chain on her and used very light hands. When I added pressure she would push her nose out and resist it rather than give into it...


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

smrobs, I am going to try the one rein stop and read more into that article. The thing I may be concerned with on how effective it will be is that she is a verrrryyyy touchy mare. If i so much as move my rein to one side or the other she turns. Do you think this would be a problem? Or if she turns do i just wait for her to stop..? Thanks


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

When she pushes against the bit, take one rein and push her into a tiny circle and keep working her until she softens to your hand. If she is content to lean on you, don't be afraid to give her a decent bump in the mouth. Getting a soft horse _is_ about being soft with your hands and giving a good release at the right time, but that's not all. You also need to know when you need to be hard and how hard you have to be to get the best response.

Don't worry about getting her to break at the poll right now, stop using two reins for _anything_ so long as she is bracing against you. Bracing against bit pressure from pulling straight back is one of the easiest things for a horse to brace against and ignore. Use one rein to stop her, one rein to slow her down, get her soft and supple to each side. If you work and get her 100% solid on every bit of that, you might be surprised to find that she'll be quick to break at the poll when she has her mind right again.

ETA: if she turns when you pick up one rein, then just let her turn until her feet stop and she's soft and bent to the side. Sometimes it takes 3 circles, sometimes 300, you just have to outlast them.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Great thank-you! I will try this and let you know how it goes!! Thanks bunches everyone


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No problem . I hope it helps you out.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Exactly what Smrobs said - easiest way to get her to break at the poll is to forget about breaking at the poll and get her giving laterally, perfectly every time. It is very hard for a horse to brace effectively or raise/push out their head when you have one rein flexing them. 

So lots of small circles with her head flexed to the inside, but your inside leg keeping her body out on the circle. She should only turn when she gets a signal from seat, leg and rein. She needs to learn that an open rein doesn't necessarily mean turn unless it is accompanied the the aids from seat and leg - because you want to be able to ask for her face or change the bend through her body using that inside rein, too. Lots of yielding away from your inside leg (crossing her legs over) with her bend away from the direction of travel also helps gaming horses a lot, because it makes it very easy to step them away from your barrel/pole if needed without losing the correct shape through the body.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

When I suggested bitting back--and when Ace suggested "bitting up"--we didn't mean switching to a harsher bit, but rather to fastening the reins down low and working the horse from the ground.

Like so: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/purpose-tying-horses-head-down-88788/


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Ok so are ride went better this afternoon because we were both calm. She is actually really responsive in the D-ring snaffle. I just focused on the one rein stops and *smrobs, *she did turn a LOT at first but after a while she started to get it and stop faster and straighter. 

I tried laterally flexing her today and I don't think she was ever taught how to do that...I read the article and I am going to try tying her head laterally tomorrow and see if it works. What is a general amount of time that it make take to teach her to flex laterally?


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Not a fan, at all, of leaving a horse with its head tied in any way...whether between it's legs or left tied to the side. I don't think it stretches anything, except by force. I do all my bending exercises from the saddle and can offer instant relief and praise.


----------



## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

Just want everyone to know Grinder is doing wonderfully! She is laterally flexing great and she learned how to rather quickly and she does it without fighting me, She is also breaking at the poll now. Hopefully we can see some improvement soon!


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Yay! Good job :]


----------

