# Eating horses



## Speed Racer

Um, you've picked the wrong forum to be hatin' on people eating horses. Very few of us here have a problem with it, especially since many European horses are raised primarily as food animals, just like cattle.

I'd think being French, you wouldn't have a problem with it since you've been raised to think it's normal.


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## Katesrider011

Yeah, you're on the wrong forum for this. 

I just hope you realize the debate this will probably cause. But I respect everyone's opinion.


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## Dayane

I realize that the debate will probably cause, but I thought that we could talk about everything here. Sorry.


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## Katesrider011

Dayane said:


> I realize that the debate will probably cause, but I thought that we could talk about everything here. Sorry.


Well you can talk about anything, but the majority of people here are pro slaughter. 

Sorry if I came off as rude.


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## Speed Racer

We can, just don't get upset if the majority of people here don't share your opinion. That's all I'm saying.


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## Dayane

I won't feel upset, I'm very open minded, but, even if in France a lot of horses are raised for food, many people send their horses at the butchery because they are hurt, or something like that, and if people are fighting against something in France, it's most of the time to forbid this possibility, and if I asked this question, it was just for know know if it's the reality I've heard was right for the United Kingdom.


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## ladybugsgirl

Wow I didnt realize alot of you were ok with slaughter. Glad I can keep my opinion to myself on this topic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katesrider011

What people do with their horses is not decided by you. Yes it's very unfortunate for the horse sometimes. I personally would try to find an alternative other than slaughter for an injured horse, but not everyone thinks the same way. Some people make a living off horses and have no time to try to sale it when it is injured. It's a sad outcome for the horse, but it'll still serve a purpose to feed people. They don't go through anything worse than cows, pigs, chickens, and etc.


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## ladybugsgirl

Katie chill just a little I was just stating I didnt realize alot of you were pro slaughter. I didnt say anything about what someone should or shouldnt do with there horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cloud9

Hi Dayane. I don't believe that in the UK there is a law against eating horses. It's just that the majority of people in the UK would choose not too. I don't know of any butcher that sells horse meat so obviously in the UK there isn't a great demand for it. Hope that helps.


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## Katesrider011

ladybugsgirl said:


> Katie chill just a little I was just stating I didnt realize alot of you were pro slaughter. I didnt say anything about what someone should or shouldnt do with there horse
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was not referring to you, and I am chill. I calmly stated an opinion. That is all. And I'd rather you call me Kates, not Katie. Thanks. 

I'm not here to start a debate.


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## Dayane

Cloud9 : Thanks, you helped me! 

Katesrider011: For sure, it's will be unfortunate for the horses, but i keep my opinion and think that it will be other possibilities to that. 

(Sorry if I'm a bit too long to answer, but I have to search my words in english and try to make good sentences LOL)


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## Katesrider011

Dayane said:


> Cloud9 :
> 
> Katesrider011: For sure, it's will be unfortunate for the horses, but i keep my opinion and think that it will be other possibilities to that.
> 
> (Sorry if I'm a bit too long to answer, but I have to search my words in english and try to make good sentences LOL)


That's fine, I respect that.


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## ladybugsgirl

Sorry kates it was a typo. you might not want to sit and accuse someone thought
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

ladybugsgirl said:


> Sorry kates it was a typo. you might not want to sit and accuse someone though.


I didn't see where he was accusing anyone of anything, merely stating his opinion.

If you don't want your horses going to slaughter, great. But we have no right to impose our own ideals on others when it comes to their own legal chattel (horses).


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## Katesrider011

ladybugsgirl said:


> Sorry kates it was a typo. you might not want to sit and accuse someone thought
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What was I accusing someone of?


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## DrumRunner

Ohhh lord...here we go again..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shasta1981

DrumRunner said:


> Ohhh lord...here we go again..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha! Right? Why does this topic come up so often??


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## ladybugsgirl

Well I was just stating a fact like wow I didnt realize so many of you were pro slaughter and kates has to state "what people do with there horses isnt up to me". Well duh but I didnt state anything saying I was judging or told people that they should or shouldnt send there horse to slaughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katesrider011

ladybugsgirl said:


> Well I was just stating a fact like wow I didnt realize so many of you were pro slaughter and kates has to state "what people do with there horses isnt up to me". Well duh but I didnt state anything saying I was judging or told people that they should or shouldnt send there horse to slaughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I was stating a fact, I didn't mean it in any bad judgmental way. And again I wasn't talking to you when I said that, I was talking the OP. 

I will respect this OP because she has in no way deserved criticism for her opinion, and I did NOT criticize her in ANY way. Cause like in the past where the OP's of these kind of threads end in insulting Pro slaughter people. Like saying "I feel sorry for your horses" "You don't love horses" and blah blah blah. This OP hasn't done that, so I respect her opinion.

I don't know where in the world you think I'm accusing anyone of anything. Sorry you think I came off that way.


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## Dayane

Oh, I see that I've asked the bad question... :/


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## Katesrider011

Dayane said:


> Oh, I see that I've asked the bad question... :/


No... No you haven't.


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## Dayane

Katesrider011 said:


> No... No you haven't.


Hm... I'm not sure.


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## Spastic_Dove

You've asked a controversial question. 

Most of the people here would rather see a horse meet a quick death at slaughter than starve to death in a field somewhere. 

They happen to be pets for us, but for many cultures they are food just like a cow or chicken. 

I rather see it legalized and strictly regulated than legalized to save the pretty horses who end up having to drive to some other country to get slaughtered (speaking of the states here).


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## Speed Racer

You're exactly right, Spastic.

I'd rather the plants here in the U.S. were reopened, so we could regulate the horses and their care. As it is, with all the plants shut down, once they leave our borders we have no way to track them.


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## xxBarry Godden

As an ageing old man, I have yet to see horse flesh being sold for human consumption although during the second world war and for some years afterwards it was sold as edible meat.
Likewise you will not see whalemeat on sale in the UK.

It is a cultural issue and any cook offering horse, whale, dog or cat's meat would 
soon be struck off the visiting list. We Brits are also fussy about which fish we eat and also which wild bird meat.

But despite these cultural idiosyncracies you can enjoy offal in the form of - liver, kidneys, hearts and in the case of sheep and pig, their brains. Old fashioned traditional cuisine is still to be discovered even in the twenty first century. We eat certain offals in my house. 

but regarding horse meat:
If my horse were to die or be put down, then the carcass would most likely be collected by the local fox hunt and fed to the hounds.
Alternatively at great expense, the horse'c carcass can be incinerated.

It is still possible to get permission for a horse to be buried on private land but some local governments withhold permission since in some low lying areas it is undersirable to pollute the water table with rotting flesh.

All horses nowadays are supposed to be registered with passports which contain details of all the drugs which may have been administered by a vet and which might have rendered the flesh inedible by humans after euthanasia. This system has the effect that relatively little horse meat can be considered for human consumption.

Except in wartime, there is rarely a shortage of food in Britain and there is plenty of meat of all types to eat without needing to consider horse flesh.
If you know where to hunt, there is a lot of game meat - venison, rabbit, hare pheasant or pidgeon.

But I suspect the fundamental issue in this thread is that I have yet to meet a Brit who would _*choose*_ to eat horse flesh - especially if it previously had been 
kept as a riding horse.

Likewise we are reluctant to eat a pot bellied pig, or a courtyard chicken kept primarily for eggs, or a pet dog or a cat (which when skinned looks remarkably like wild rabbit (which we do eat). 

If this subject relates to the over population of wild mustangs in the US, then the problem does not apply in Britain. There are relatively few areas on the island of Great Britain where wild horses roam unfettered. Most of the open land is to be found in the national parks - the Highlands, the Lake District, The Cambrian Mountains etc, each of which are managed by wardens, who would not tolerate too many wild 'ponies'. On Dartmoor, from time to time the ponies are rounded up and shipped off alive to France - where the French do eat horse meat. There might be a market for an American to airfreight frozen horsemeat to France - if the EU strict regulations could be met. The French eat a lot of unusual foods - including snails (delicious if done in garlic butter)

But please, keep your eyes off my tubby Irish mare. She's not for eating - ever.


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## equiniphile

Umm, maybe we should get a mod before this one blows up. It's only a matter of time, and we've proved time and time again we're not capable of having a mature discussion on this topic without people getting emotional.


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## Heatherloveslottie

I think people are trying to start a debate here, if you look properly she isn't really asking for the for/against eating horse meat.

She just wanted to know if it was legal to eat horse meat in the UK, annd if so, how it came about.

Just before the argument gets too bad when there wasn't really cause for an argument


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## Speed Racer

Equiniphile, it's been fairly civil so far. We can only hope it stays that way. Of course, the real die hard antis haven't shown up yet.


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## christabelle

I am neutral on the topic. I feel badly for the horse that meets its end in the hands of the creatures it lived to serve (and in my opinion, loved... Though some may debate that horses love us). I would rather people were more responsible, but they are not... Thus it is a necessary evil in my mind... But it is also the reason that to this day, I still have not sold a horse of mine. I cringe at the thought that one of mine could walk this road. Their only claim to fame is being good old trail horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner

I'm choosing to stay out of this one for now..everyone from the last thread knows my opinion lol..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xxBarry Godden

Regarding the legality of eating horse meat in the UK - I personally do not know of any rule which prohibits eating horse meat per se.

But there are very strict rules about knowing the complete history of any animal carcass which is presented to a licensed slaughter house for butchering and entering the meat marketing chain. For example, even the movement of beef cattle from pasture to pasture is carefully recorded on farm records.


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## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> If you don't want your horses going to slaughter, great. But we have no right to impose our own ideals on others when it comes to their own legal chattel (horses).





Spastic_Dove said:


> You've asked a controversial question.
> 
> Most of the people here would rather see a horse meet a quick death at slaughter than starve to death in a field somewhere.
> 
> They happen to be pets for us, but for many cultures they are food just like a cow or chicken.
> 
> I rather see it legalized and strictly regulated than legalized to save the pretty horses who end up having to drive to some other country to get slaughtered (speaking of the states here).


What they said.

I think we have some UK members. Hopefully they can stop in and answer the question about it being legal there.


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## xxBarry Godden

Mostly the Brits choose not to eat horse flesh but it is not illegal to do so.

_*I sense another underlying issue in this thread - what is it you want clarifying about the horse scene in Britain? Maybe, just maybe, I can answer.*_

Typically we Brits are a nation of animal lovers, but there as exceptions. Many retired horses, no longer usable, end their days in pastures eating, in competition with the sheep, the abundant grass which grows almost everywhere in Britain. 

There is a very significant horse rescue system operating nationally in the UK, most branches of which are supported by charity. I can pay to 'retire' my horse
to pasture should she become unrideable.

However the final outlet for some unfortunate horses and unwanted wild ponies is at the horse auctions which operate around the country. The horses are sold at minimal prices to the horse meat marketeers who ship them by lorry to the Continent where they are slaughtered for their flesh to feed humans or dogs. The horses are following the same route to market as do the sheep and cattle from off the farm. British lamb and beef are highly prized in Europe, but usually the animals are transported alive across the Channel. 

As in many other scenarios, we Brits ease our conscience, in this case about horses, by letting the French do the eating.


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## HopalongCassidy

Katesrider011 said:


> What people do with their horses is not decided by you. Yes it's very unfortunate for the horse sometimes. I personally would try to find an alternative other than slaughter for an injured horse, but not everyone thinks the same way. Some people make a living off horses and have no time to try to sale it when it is injured. It's a sad outcome for the horse, but it'll still serve a purpose to feed people. They don't go through anything worse than cows, pigs, chickens, and etc.


I agree with this.


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## Dayane

Hum, I didn't wanted to make a debate if you were for or against eating horses. I just wanted to KNOW if in England eating horses is forbidden because I've heard it one time, and I wanted to know HOW they did it. I respect if you are for or against, but it wasn't my question.


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## faye

In the UK it is perfectly legal to eat horse meat.

I am British, but I am also half Belgian (Dayane if you are happier discussing this in french PM me and I'll explain what you want to know in french). I have eaten horse meat in the past and I will in the future. Just like with Beef if you know where your meat is coming from then meat is meat. Horse meat just tastes slightly different and goes off faster.


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## Marlea Warlea

SAVE THE HORSES!!

horses have done everything for us, they have carried us, helped us out for hundreds even thousands of years... and what do we do, eat em!!


And BTW dont go on and say to me, oh but what about cows, you eat them, and they have done stuff for us.... IM A VEGOTARIAN!!!


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## Allison Finch

I suspect there are a number of horses I would rather eat than ride!!! :wink:


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## Marlea Warlea

*shocked* WAAAAAAAAAAATT???


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## vikki92

WOW!!!! horses are not to be eaten, no matter what size, shape, health, looks!! horses are like people!!! not like cows or tukeys are whatever animal!! HORSES are MORE! then Animals!! they are everything and More! to me eating a horse is like eating a person!! but thats just me! I would never even think about eating a horse, i would die of straveation before i ate a horse of any kind.


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## .Delete.

Marlea Warlea said:


> SAVE THE HORSES!!
> 
> horses have done everything for us, they have carried us, helped us out for hundreds even thousands of years... and what do we do, eat em!!
> 
> 
> And BTW dont go on and say to me, oh but what about cows, you eat them, and they have done stuff for us.... IM A VEGOTARIAN!!!


:-|

Enough said.


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## Marlea Warlea

ohhh... getting to rough for ya?


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## .Delete.

vikki92 said:


> WOW!!!! horses are not to be eaten, no matter what size, shape, health, looks!! horses are like people!!! not like cows or tukeys are whatever animal!! HORSES are MORE! then Animals!! they are everything and More! to me eating a horse is like eating a person!! but thats just me! I would never even think about eating a horse, i would die of straveation before i ate a horse of any kind.


Horses are defined as livestock, along with cows, chickens, etc etc. Perhaps _your_ horse is more then just an animal to you but in the end horses are just animals, like we humans are just animals. 

People rant about how eating a horse is cruel and they would never ever ever eat a poor wittle horsie or "I would rather die of starvation before i ate a horse of any kind" this really gets under my skin. There are starving people all over the world who would give anything to have the opportunity to eat a horse, or anything for that matter. Yet people freak out at the very thought of eating a horse saying its cruel or evil. *Every 5 seconds* a child dies of starvation in Africa is that not cruel? Mind you, a child who would be more then happy to eat your beloved pet.


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## Marlea Warlea

every 4 seconds an amarican horse gets slaughtered for human consumption


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## .Delete.

Personally Marlea i have no problem with horses being slaughtered for consumption. They are livestock and should be treated as such, i find it much more repulsive that humans are dying of starvation then horses. I would love to try horse meat, keeps things in perspective. 

Once a horse crosses the boarder its no longer an "American Horse" unless its illegally being slaughtered in the states. America has no control over a horse once it leaves the country.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I'm sure the cows appreciate your sentiment towards horses.

It's called the chain of life. You must REALLY hate lions and wolves.






Now THAT'S humane!


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## Katesrider011

I have to agree with MM and Delete. Although I dislike thinking about it, and I don't go off defending it much. I do think it's necassary. But other than that I don't go all out to try to get it reopened, but I don't think it should've been banned in the U.S. either. Poor horses have to travel a looongg ways, and god help them if they get sent to Mexico. If they are lucky they get sent to Canada and blah blah blah nothing no one didn't know already.


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## vikki92

.Delete. said:


> Horses are defined as livestock, along with cows, chickens, etc etc. Perhaps _your_ horse is more then just an animal to you but in the end horses are just animals, like we humans are just animals.
> 
> People rant about how eating a horse is cruel and they would never ever ever eat a poor wittle horsie or "I would rather die of starvation before i ate a horse of any kind" this really gets under my skin. There are starving people all over the world who would give anything to have the opportunity to eat a horse, or anything for that matter. Yet people freak out at the very thought of eating a horse saying its cruel or evil. *Every 5 seconds* a child dies of starvation in Africa is that not cruel? Mind you, a child who would be more then happy to eat your beloved pet.


well i guess we can say i care more about horses (not just mine) then i do people! so ur saying also that we humans are animals so i guess its ok to eat people, if thats the case i would rather eat a person then i would a horse!


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## .Delete.

vikki92 said:


> well i guess we can say i care more about horses (not just mine) then i do people! so ur saying also that we humans are animals so i guess its ok to eat people, if thats the case i would rather eat a person then i would a horse!


Do you eat Beef? Chicken? Pork? They are all in the same category as horses. a.k.a *livestock*

Also there are instances where humans have been the prey of bigger animals. People who live around larger predators such as lions, tigers, bears, even wolves have been eaten. Animals eat other animals, as MM said, its the circle of life.


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## DrumRunner

Hey. People all over the world eat people..There was a thread a few weeks ago about eating horses and Most people would said they would taste horse meat. I agree that they should open the slaughter houses back up. Like Delete said, horses are livestock. I think of mine as my best friends and my kids But, you have to look at the fact that it is still an animal. Horses are still going to kill pens and being transported out of the country to slaughter houses. The way I see it is that there are MORE starving and uncared for horses NOW than there were when the houses were open. now that the slaughter houses are closed the "unwanted" horses have no where to go. People now will just LEAVE their horses. This is why alot of horses now are uncared for and abandoned. I'm not saying it's right to eat a horse. I couldn't even imagine eating one of mine. BUT you have to look at the fact that horse meat is VERY high priced and in todays economy money is everything. Horses going to the slaughter houses are treated no different than other livestock that people use for human consumption. Most of us eat meat and do you think it's ok for cows, chickens, pigs, etc. to be treated that way?..I will say that some houses and companies are worse than others but not all are god awful and cruel...Do a little research about the topic before blasting away with SAVE THE HORSES.


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## vikki92

.Delete. said:


> Do you eat Beef? Chicken? Pork? They are all in the same category as horses. a.k.a *livestock*
> 
> Also there are instances where humans have been the prey of bigger animals. People who live around larger predators such as lions, tigers, bears, even wolves have been eaten. Animals eat other animals, as MM said, its the circle of life.


 yes i love beef, chicken & pork, but beef, chicken & pork are not horses! they are very difffrent, i could care less about cow chicken & pigs. its horses i care about! and horses i will not eat!


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## DrumRunner

IMHO chickens have it the worst..


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## Katesrider011

vikki92 said:


> yes i love beef, chicken & pork, but beef, chicken & pork are not horses! they are very difffrent, i could care less about cow chicken & pigs. its horses i care about! and horses i will not eat!


What's so different? Chickens and cows are living creatures as well. 

What's different is that you love horses more, but I don't think horses should get anymore special treatment. If you feel slaughter is bad for horses then it should be seen as bad for every other creature as well.


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## .Delete.

Here is the thread DR was talking about 

Would you eat a horse?

I started that thread because i was doing a research project on why Americas refuse horse meat. I also posted the same thing on a few other horse fourms The most common excuse i found from people saying no was "horses are pets to me not food" which is perfectly fine. If you dont like it then dont eat it, but dont put down others who do eat it.


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## MacabreMikolaj

The only purpose of prey animals is to be food - period. In the circle of life, they exist solely to feed predators and those that survive exist solely to regenerate the population (as well as obviously to balance the ecosystem by eating vegetation). Humans are predators, not prey, and not meant to be eaten - they are meant to EAT.

Nature really doesn't care about your silly little emotional attachments.


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## .Delete.

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Nature really doesn't care about your silly little emotional attachments.


Well said


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## DrumRunner

yeeaah..I didn't realize it was you who started that thread Delete..I enjoyed it lol..I think I actually got a little heated in it..oh well..

Very well said Macabre


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## .Delete.

Nothing wrong with a little debate ;]


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## lacyloo

> yes i love beef, chicken & pork, but beef, chicken & pork are not horses! they are very different, i could care less about cow chicken & pigs. its horses i care about! and horses i will not eat!



Alittle hypocritical tonight are we?
Both members appear to be young so theres no use beating a dead horse.


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## vikki92

just stateing my thoughts. yes i guess you could say im young im 19 years old and married.


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## DrumRunner

.Delete. said:


> Nothing wrong with a little debate ;]


I know! I personally think a debate category should be on the forum..as long as it stayed CIVIL..lol On second thought it might not be a good idea..I looked and I didn't get really bad on your thread but I remember there being one and I read it later and was like "wow, I was kinda HARSH"..lol


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## Marlea Warlea

WHY SHOULDN'T HORSES BE SLAUGHTERED:
.horses are companions, not livestock
.horses are killed in a horedous way, sometimes with a gun shot in the head, sometimes being skinned while still alive!!
.horse slaughter houses harm the environment
. many horses only end up there because of bad face markings



many horses have been stolen for slaughter houses!!


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## lacyloo

Wording things differently can gain more respect and be taken seriously.


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## Katesrider011

Marlea Warlea said:


> WHY SHOULDN'T HORSES BE SLAUGHTERED:
> .horses are companions, not livestock
> .horses are killed in a horedous way, sometimes with a gun shot in the head, sometimes being skinned while still alive!!
> .horse slaughter houses harm the environment
> . many horses only end up there because of bad face markings
> 
> 
> 
> many horses have been stolen for slaughter houses!!


Again, if people send their horse there for bad face markings then that's their choice. 
They are viewed as pets by many, but are considered livestock. 
They aren't skinned alive, The captive bolt or bullet takes care of it, they don't feel a thing.

Now I'm not gonna say slaughter is 100% efficient. Things do go wrong, but more things go right than wrong. Peta and shark only show you what goes wrong.


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## lacyloo

Marlea Warlea said:


> WHY SHOULDN'T HORSES BE SLAUGHTERED:
> .horses are companions, not livestock
> .horses are killed in a horedous way, sometimes with a gun shot in the head, sometimes being skinned while still alive!!
> .horse slaughter houses harm the environment
> . many horses only end up there because of bad face markings
> 
> 
> 
> many horses have been stolen for slaughter houses!!


 May I ask where you have got these statements from?


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## Marlea Warlea

yeah except for the bullet which doesnt take them out straight away, and alot of places DO shock them and skin them alive


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## .Delete.

DrumRunner said:


> I know! I personally think a debate category should be on the forum..as long as it stayed CIVIL..lol On second thought it might not be a good idea..I looked and I didn't get really bad on your thread but I remember there being one and I read it later and was like "wow, I was kinda HARSH"..lol


Im getting off topic here but

I joined before we had a etiquette policy, and i will be the first to admit i was pretty nasty to alot of people. I can almost guarantee i played a roll in the policy being enforced. I stalked the critique section waiting for people's horses to make fun of. "Bashings" are mild now compared to before we had the etiquette policy.


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## .Delete.

Marlea Warlea said:


> WHY SHOULDN'T HORSES BE SLAUGHTERED:
> .horses are companions, not livestock
> .horses are killed in a horedous way, sometimes with a gun shot in the head, sometimes being skinned while still alive!!
> .horse slaughter houses harm the environment
> . many horses only end up there because of bad face markings
> 
> 
> 
> many horses have been stolen for slaughter houses!!


Marlea i realize that you are young. But this post isnt even worth the lengthy response it needs. Please educate yourself better. 

US slaughter horses were regulated and BY LAW had to have a vet over see the euthanization of _every_ horse while the plant was in operation. If there was any evidence of inhumane treatment they were required to shut the plant down.


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## lacyloo

Marlea Warlea said:


> yeah except for the bullet which doesnt take them out straight away


 Can you show me facts of where a bullet is not a sufficient euthanasia method ?


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## Marlea Warlea

well... would you wanna be shot in the head with a bullet??


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## lacyloo

Marlea Warlea said:


> well... would you wanna be shot in the head with a bullet??


 Yes. Muscle twitching can and often occurs with the carcass. That doesn't equal- alive. 

Have you ever seen a snake get its head chopped off? Notice how, even with the head removed the snake moves? its nerves.


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## Katesrider011

Marlea Warlea said:


> yeah except for the bullet which doesnt take them out straight away, and alot of places DO shock them and skin them alive


I've seen horses get shot before. Done right it takes them out straight away. The workers know where to shoot them. They aren't gonna let a horse squirm around in pain for crying out loud. The moving is nerves twitching. Humans even do it sometimes if shot. 

And yeah I'd rather be shot than have a needle stuck in me waiting to die.


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## .Delete.

They are killed instantly and dont feel anything. Marlea i feel your statments are just false assumptions based on your emotional attachments. Like i said before please do some real research before you go around spitting out things like "an american horse dies every 4 seconds for human consumption" or "SAVE THE HORSES". I know your young, but it would be good for you to start getting a grasp on the real reality of things


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## Marlea Warlea

young doesnt = dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
go on to the website just say whoa, it'll explain, i can't be bothered to someone with a thich head


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## Katesrider011

Marlea Warlea said:


> young doesnt = dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> go on to the website just say whoa, it'll explain, i can't be bothered to someone with a thich head


I'm pretty sure that website is similar to peta. They give you false information to get people so emotionally attached that they forget the reality of slaughter.


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## Marlea Warlea

no its not, i have seen many clips, heard true life stories, pictures, etc etc


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## .Delete.

I have gone to that website and i have read alot on it.

Here Marlea read this 
Roots of horse meat taboo

Its good to know both sides of the argument


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## Katesrider011

Clips of the few slaughter cases gone wrong. I've already went over that. We all here know slaughter isn't 100% efficient. Sometimes the animal doesn't die straight away. But the sites like that overexaggerate the amount that happens.


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## lacyloo

Marlea Warlea said:


> young doesnt = dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> go on to the website just say whoa, it'll explain, i can't be bothered to someone with a thich head


 Have you ever thought about the possibility of those sites being based off of propaganda? They give false facts in order to effect ones emotions.


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## Marlea Warlea

it doesnt matter if it happens once a year!! every case of a horse in pain is not good!!


----------



## .Delete.

99% of horrible videos are from other countries like Mexico *where horses are being shipped too because the US banned slaughter*


----------



## vikki92

Well if thay all (as in everywhere in the world) whould shut down then there whould be no problem!


----------



## .Delete.

Quote from the article i posted "The fact remains that every horse dies. Horses' carcasses can be buried, or left out for the worms and buzzards, but what good is that? Neglected horses living out their days can be a horrible cruel sight too. Of course, conditions in slaughterhouses can be no better. What of all this is reconcilable?"

But we are just beating a dead horse here.


----------



## Katesrider011

vikki92 said:


> Well if thay all (as in everywhere in the world) whould shut down then there whould be no problem!


Quite the contrary. More horses would be abused and neglected.


----------



## Katesrider011

.Delete. said:


> 99% of horrible videos are from other countries like Mexico *where horses are being shipped too because the US banned slaughter*


I watched a video of Mexican slaughter. The guy stabbed the horse in the neck. And it was very graphic (not going into details). That's when I decided slaughter should be opened back up in the US.


----------



## .Delete.

Katesrider011 said:


> I watched a video of Mexican slaughter. The guy stabbed the horse in the neck. And it was very graphic (not going into details). That's when I decided slaughter should be opened back up in the US.


Atleast when they are slaughtering in the US we can regulate it and can enforce humane laws


----------



## Katesrider011

.Delete. said:


> Atleast when they are slaughtering in the US we can regulate it and can enforce humane laws


I know right! I know what being a die hard anti slaughter person was like. But this forum has desensitized me to it since I've been on.


----------



## .Delete.

Im glad you'v come back from the dark side ;]


----------



## lacyloo

Katesrider011 said:


> I know right! I know what being a die hard anti slaughter person was like. But this forum has desensitized me to it since I've been on.


Agreed. I never would have thought that I would be pro-slaughter. One side brings facts and the other relies on emotion based statements from propaganda videos. I like facts :wink:


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

.Delete. said:


> Atleast when they are slaughtering in the US we can regulate it and can enforce humane laws


I completely agree! My non-horse friends after seeing a special on the news about slaughter houses across the borders asked me where I stood on slaughter as a horse owner and they couldn't believe that I am pro-slaughter. Does it need to be better regulated, absolutely. Unfortunately we do not live in a world of rainbows and butterflies and there are some things that are necessary. I can't say that I've eaten horse meat, but if it came down to it for survival, I wouldn't be above it.


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## vikki92

This makes me sick! i cant even eat the horse shaped animal cookies! 
no matter how they kill the horses it shouldnt be done, and people if there gonna have horses should take care of them, i know its wishful dreaming! but at leaset im one person who will always take horses & will take them in when & if i can, and love & care for them till they die on there own.


----------



## Speed Racer

vikki92 said:


> but at leaset im one person who will always take horses & will take them in when & if i can, and love & care for them till they die on there own.


Nothing but emotional, over dramatic rhetoric.

None of us here neglect or abuse our horses, and for you to take that attitude just shows me how little of the real world you actually understand, regardless of whether or not you're married and believe yourself to be a mature adult. Your emotional outburst is more akin to a 12 y/o, than someone who's supposed to be over the age of majority.

So vikki, you're going to let a horse die on its own? That means you won't stop an animal's suffering by euthing it? That's complete and utter cruelty. If you own animals you need to be prepared to let them go, and 99.9% of the time, it's by euthing. Very few die on their own without prolonged suffering.

Horse slaughter is no more barbaric or cruel than any other livestock slaughter. If you eat meat, and use/wear leather, then you're being a complete hypocrite for saying horses are 'more special' than any other food animal.

I won't even get into Marlea's opinions, because she's just a child and still believes all the hype and propaganda put out by the animal rights fanatics.


----------



## faye

Well said Speed racer. 

Horses are an animal like any other. I eat horse meat and I'm quite open about it.

Would I eat my horses, no way on earth would I eat them mainly because I know what crap I've put into them and hence the section on thier passport is signed that these horses are not fit for human consumption. 

Yes I care deeply for all my horses and yes, I will and I have put a horse down both by injection, captive bolt and by live rounds if the situation warrents it. 

I live in the real world and realise that not everyone will care for thier animals for their entire lives (I will, I've got a 30 yr old pony sitting in my field) and I'd rather a horse has a short trip and a quick bullet rather then a long drawn out death by starvation, poisoning or gangrinous injury!


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Faye - you've got my curiosity now I must ask what it tastes like? Feel free to pm me if you want, lol 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Katesrider011

I don't eat horses well because I can't eat something I own. It's silly but I feel like I'm betraying my horse by eating her species. But that's just me. Anyone can do what they want.


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## DrumRunner

I was wondering when you would get here SpeedRacer..it kinda makes me happy lol..



vikki92 said:


> This makes me sick! i cant even eat the horse shaped animal cookies!
> QUOTE]
> now that's ridiculous..
> 
> AND..
> 
> Ok Vikki, What happens when your horse gets hurt beyond repair, has no chance of ever being able to be pain free, would only be miserable if it lived, and you HAVE to euthanize it?? umm they die..and as a Responsible owner you would do the RIGHT thing and make the best decision for the horse..Yep..you would be making a decision to kill your horse..as harsh as it is, it's the truth..What would you do?? Be a Smart and Caring owner?? or be Cruel and keep it alive for your own emotional attachment with it and be that selfish..
> 
> I am pro-slaughter and I'll stay that way..PETA, SHARK, and all of the other idiots should show the WHOLE truth and cold hard facts. That is what I believe is right. Not, I would NEVER kill my horsie because I love him and I love all horsies so I don't like them to be killed.
> 
> Just sayin..


----------



## Speed Racer

DrumRunner said:


> I was wondering when you would get here SpeedRacer.


I've been away, Drum. Had a family crisis to deal with, and I didn't have the time or desire to be on the interwebz.

Good to know someone was wondering about me! :wink:


----------



## DrumRunner

Speed Racer said:


> I've been away, Drum. Had a family crisis to deal with, and I didn't have the time or desire to be on the interwebz.
> 
> Good to know someone was wondering about me! :wink:


Ohh. Hope everything's ok now..Yep. I really have been..It got a little dull in a thread when I didn't have anyone to laugh with..


----------



## goldilockz

I sincerely adore these threads <3

As it stands right now, I wouldn't eat horse meat because of my own personal squeamishes. I would, however, sponsor a program that slaughtered unwanted and neglected horses and sent them to starving children, if such a program existed. It takes care of two majorly depressing issues: Animal cruelty and human starvation.

Now, lemme just tell you, if the apocalypse hits and there is no meat to be found... you can bet your booty that Dixie the Fatty out there in my pasture better plan her escape, because she'll be feeding us. It would take the apocalypse for me to eat a horse, but if the apocalypse happened, I'd do it.


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## DrumRunner

I think that would be a FANTASTIC idea!! I haven't ever thought about it but it would be awesome..


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## Katesrider011

goldilockz said:


> I sincerely adore these threads <3
> 
> As it stands right now, I wouldn't eat horse meat because of my own personal squeamishes. I would, however, sponsor a program that slaughtered unwanted and neglected horses and sent them to starving children, if such a program existed. It takes care of two majorly depressing issues: Animal cruelty and human starvation.
> 
> Now, lemme just tell you, if the apocalypse hits and there is no meat to be found... you can bet your booty that Dixie the Fatty out there in my pasture better plan her escape, because she'll be feeding us. It would take the apocalypse for me to eat a horse, but if the apocalypse happened, I'd do it.


That'd be a good idea. 

The only spot we differ is in the case of an apocalypse leading to the end of the world. I think I'd rather die than worry about staying in a world that's gonna end anyway.


----------



## goldilockz

Katesrider011 said:


> That'd be a good idea.
> 
> The only spot we differ is in the case of an apocalypse leading to the end of the world. I think I'd rather die than worry about staying in a world that's gonna end anyway.


LOL! That makes sense. I'm a survivalist though, so I plan to be one of a dozen or so people battling it out for world supremacy if mankind is obliterated :twisted:


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

goldilockz said:


> LOL! That makes sense. I'm a survivalist though, so I plan to be one of a dozen or so people battling it out for world supremacy if mankind is obliterated :twisted:


ROFL, I have ZERO desire to survive in such circumstances, so on the chance I DO survive ya'll have my permission to shoot me in the head with a bullet and use my carcass as you see fit! I know I sure as heck would rather be shot than starve to death!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Katesrider011

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ROFL, I have ZERO desire to survive in such circumstances, so on the chance I DO survive ya'll have my permission to shoot me in the head with a bullet and use my carcass as you see fit! I know I sure as heck would rather be shot than starve to death!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HAHA They can shoot me too! :lol: That way I wouldn't have to do it myself ;-)


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## DrumRunner

Lol I would try to survive..if there were quite a few people left you and I can plan together and dominate the other people for control of the world..all non horsey people would be exiled if they wont accept the contageous disease we all carry.. we could live for a WHILE off your Dixie and my Hickory..he is nice an juicy lol.


----------



## faye

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Faye - you've got my curiosity now I must ask what it tastes like? Feel free to pm me if you want, lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me it tastes slightly richer then top quality beef. SOme people have described it as sweeter then beef but I don't think so.

TBH i Personaly think that if you swaped beef mince for horse meat mince and put it in a burger hardly anyone would be able to tell the difference, maybe someone accustomed to eating horse meat might.


----------



## Allison Finch

vikki92 said:


> WOW!!!! horses are not to be eaten to me eating a horse is like eating a person!! but thats just me! I.


 
I suspect there are some PEOPLE I would rather eat than deal with......:twisted:


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

Thanks Faye. It sounds good, if I'm ever somewhere to try it, I think I will. 

Allison - I agree completely!!!!!! You had me busting up over that one 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

Allison Finch said:


> I suspect there are some PEOPLE I would rather eat than deal with......:twisted:


:rofl:


----------



## vikki92

Hey i never said i wuldnt put one down, i have had to put down a couple of my horses  becasue they were suffureing. im talking about just killing for meat! and people selling there horses to murderers!


----------



## vikki92

I believe that if any horse is hurting or suffering, they should be put out of there misery!!! but i DONT believe in killing horses just for meat!!!! and other animals are NOT the same as a Horses! call me a hypocrite, but i could care less about eating a nother animal, just so it isnt a horse!


----------



## .Delete.

Just because you wouldnt eat a horse doesnt mean others are wrong by doing so.


----------



## VelvetsAB

.Delete. said:


> *Every 5 seconds* a child dies of starvation in Africa is that not cruel? Mind you, a child who would be more then happy to eat your beloved pet.


_So very true....but you don't see as many people ranting and raving about saving them. _



vikki92 said:


> yes i love beef, chicken & pork, but beef, chicken & pork are not horses! they are very difffrent, i could care less about cow chicken & pigs. its horses i care about! and horses i will not eat!


_So what about the kids who raise up beef or pigs as a 4H project? Don't you think that they would be just as attached to them as we can get to our horses?_



goldilockz said:


> I sincerely adore these threads <3
> 
> As it stands right now, I wouldn't eat horse meat because of my own personal squeamishes. I would, however, sponsor a program that slaughtered unwanted and neglected horses and sent them to starving children, if such a program existed. It takes care of two majorly depressing issues: Animal cruelty and human starvation.


_This is a great idea._


_Allison....you crack me up._


_Just for a few *ahem* certain debaters on the anti-slaughter side....this thread was started because someone was wanting to know if it was or was not illegal in Britian (so not even in the United States) and if it was illegal, how did it come about. The only two posters from that way have been the OP, Barry and Faye....I doubt the rest of us can answer that question. So can we please go back to the OP?_

_Faye and Barry--I find it quite interesting how your passport system works. Here, to the best of my knowledge, a passport is used as a piece of ID for showing. It has more of a list of what classes have been competed in, and where....rather then what drugs have been administered. _


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## faye

Passport is an ID system, it has a description and diagram of the horse, as of 2009, all horses wanting a new passport must be microchip, it contains the horses vaccine record, a record of other drugs administered (must be filled in by the vet who administers the vaccine), a section for you to sign if the horse has been administered any drugs that will make it unfit for human consumption. If it is a breed society passport then it will also contain full breeding and a history of ownership.

These details are collected by the passport issueing authorities (Normaly breed societies and a few others) and all information is put onto the national equine database.
It is illegal too sell a horse without a passport (but not illegal to buy it)

I personaly think passports are brilliant. It has virtualy stopped the indescriminate breeding of scrub ponies as now it costs more to passport them then they sell for in the auction ring. 
I went to Beeston horse market several times over the winter and the number of them has dropped by 90%. last time I went there was 2 maybe 3 scrub ponies (destined for the meatman from birth), when I went in 2007 you would get 40+ scrub ponies per sale!

Personaly I'm not sure I like being called a horse murderer by hysterical child.
I'll call her a cow murderer because to some religions cows are sacred and held in higher regard then horses have ever been.


----------



## Speed Racer

vikki92 said:


> im talking about just killing for meat! and people selling there horses to murderers!


You can't* murder* an animal. Stop being such a drama llama. :roll:

So horses are 'more special' than anything else, and all the rest are just yucky, ugly, stupid meat? You're the type of person I wouldn't let near my animals, _especially_ my horses. You have no empathy for anything unless you personally like it, and that's the wrong attitude to have if you're going to consider yourself an animal advocate.

I believe in the kind and humane treatment of _all_ animals, regardless of whether they're going to wind up as food or pets. If you truly care about the welfare of animals, it shouldn't matter WHAT the species is. You missy, are no animal lover. You're narrow minded and hateful if it doesn't involve horses, and that's a very nasty attitude to have.


----------



## Katesrider011

I believe that animals raised for meat are sometimes better cared for than our pets  Lives are shorter yes, but they are well cared for. Cause happy animals make better meat. Or like that cheese commercial. Happy cows make better cheese. But in the case of horses its usually the unwanted that go to slaughter. well in the US anyway. Just think of what hands a cheap rank horse in the kill pen could go to. Yes there are people out there who target cheap animals to abuse them. An animal abuser could easily buy that cheap horse and abuse it. Id rather see that horse get slaughtered than abused. 

Oh and Lol Allison, thanks for making me laugh!


----------



## DrumRunner

speed racer said:


> you can't* murder* an animal. Stop being such a drama llama. :roll:
> 
> So horses are 'more special' than anything else, and all the rest are just yucky, ugly, stupid meat? You're the type of person i wouldn't let near my animals, _especially_ my horses. You have no empathy for anything unless you personally like it, and that's the wrong attitude to have if you're going to consider yourself an animal advocate.
> 
> I believe in the kind and humane treatment of _all_ animals, regardless of whether they're going to wind up as food or pets. If you truly care about the welfare of animals, it shouldn't matter what the species is. You missy, are no animal lover. You're narrow minded and hateful if it doesn't involve horses, and that's a very nasty attitude to have.


love it!


----------



## vikki92

I am a HORSE lover!! I love My HORSES & Every other HORSE in this WORLD! and i take very good care of my horses! just casue i dont care bout other kinds of animals dont mean i wouldnt take care of them, im just sayin it dont bother me if people eat beef,pork etc. it very much bothers me if people eat horses! its wrong and it is murder. lets just say ill eat it if it has a split hoof (horses dont have split hoofs) its just the way i believe & how i feel yes its from my heart i listen to my heart & my Brain!! but i feel no one should eat horses!! and like i said before i will strave before i eat a horse.
no hard feelings to anyone who thinks its alright to eat horses, i just think its super wrong thats all! thank little of me all you want to! and try & tell me diffrent but its not gonna change my mind. so with this i have said my peace and will say no more on the matter!


----------



## .Delete.

If you love every horse in the world then you apparently haven't ridden many horses. Horses are my life, I go to college for horses. But there are some horses that would do better as a slab a meat on a plate then under a saddle. 

I'm starting to think your younger then 19, either that or your very poorly educated. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong. 

SR I thoroughly enjoy your posts, I have to admit I look forward to what you have to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DrumRunner

Well your heart is that of a five year old who has gotten their candy taken away and your brain is closed minded and ridiculous..


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Allison Finch said:


> I suspect there are a number of horses I would rather eat than ride!!! :wink:


Best post ever!




MacabreMikolaj said:


> The only purpose of prey animals is to be food - period. In the circle of life, they exist solely to feed predators and those that survive exist solely to regenerate the population (as well as obviously to balance the ecosystem by eating vegetation). Humans are predators, not prey, and not meant to be eaten - they are meant to EAT.
> 
> Nature really doesn't care about your silly little emotional attachments.


Great post MM. Simple truth.


Marlea Warlea said:


> yeah except for the bullet which doesnt take them out straight away, and alot of places DO shock them and skin them alive


Marlea, please get some FACTS on information. You have several posts here that are nothing more than propganda.



Marlea Warlea said:


> well... would you wanna be shot in the head with a bullet??


If I had to die getting shot in the head with a bullet is probably the best way to do it. It kills you instantly.




vikki92 said:


> but at leaset im one person who will always take horses & will take them in when & if i can, and love & care for them till they die on there own.


so wait, this sounds like Vikki is saying she is the savior of all horses. Why are all the rescues over flowing when they can simply send every unwanted horse to Vikki to care for it for life.


----------



## DrumRunner

WHAT?!?! Where did teddy go?! That upsets me..I loved that teddy..


----------



## Alwaysbehind

My avatar replacement service (isn't that a catchy name for the friend I ask to change my avatar for me?) decided I needed this cute rat (though it is labeled a mouse but I am pretty sure it is a rat).

Suicidal teddy will come back, I am sure. He is too good to get rid of forever.


----------



## DrumRunner

Yeah, thats definitely a rat..


----------



## faye

hang on a sec Teddy???? who brought a teddy into this????


----------



## faye

AB looks like a rat to me too


----------



## Speed Racer

AB's previous avatar was Suicidal Teddy Bear. It got changed to a cute picture of a rat with a cookie.

Like Teddy, I'm thinking Ouchy-Bleedy needs to make a return engagement. :wink:


----------



## DrumRunner

Sorry, it was I who brought teddy into this..it just caught me off guard lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## faye

DR it doesnt take much to confuddle me! lol don't worry about it.

I think I'm going to go back to reading my little book of bunny suicides since I'm obviously a horse murderer.

Question for you Vikki, when you had a horse PTS because it was "suffering" what did you do with it afterwards? 
I can tell you exactly what was done with mine and I was there to witness it too. Stan went for a postmortem and then to the hunt, Rian is burried in the field as he was put down by lethal injection and thus the hunt wouldnt take him.

Personaly I prefer to have a horse shot rather then injected if i'm going to have them PTS. Have had all 3 and by far the most plesent was actualy the captive bolt gun.
Only resorted to the injection for Rian because we couldnt get to his head and the position he was in made it incredibly difficult to get to his head at all


----------



## Dayane

Wow. I didn't realized that my question would create this big debate. I'm sorry for this, _(or that? I don't know )_ but I think that at the beggining you had not understood my question. I didn't wanted to know if you are for or against horse meat. I'm personnaly against, but it's just my opinion and I'm totaly respectful of all the people who are pro-slaughter. I hadn't ask this question because I know that it's a big debate today. That's why I hadn't ask it, maybe because in my country (France), there's a lot of propaganda against horse meat to, I don't know. But I'm very sorry for everyone.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

DR, talking about my suicidal teddy is not off topic to this thread, really. Cutting your own head off with a good pair of scissors is just another way to kill something. That is basically the topic at hand.

Faye, I agree on shooting is a much nicer way to put a horse down. Easier for the animal.


----------



## faye

Dayane, don't worry about it. I feel the drift fairy may have taken over!
I will PM you.


----------



## Dayane

faye said:


> Dayane, don't worry about it. I feel the drift fairy may have taken over!
> I will PM you.


Ok !


----------



## Speed Racer

Dayane, it's a controversial topic. You don't need to feel sorry for bringing it up, so no need for apologies.

Although you yourself don't advocate slaughter, you don't have an issue with someone else doing it. As long as you respect different choices, I have no problem if you don't agree with me.

However, as you can see, there are those who think they have moral superiority over others who don't agree with their opinion, and think the world should do AS THEY SAY, because theirs is the only opinion that matters. :?

Certain people are unable to realize that the world doesn't_ have_ to conform to what they have specifically deemed as Right and Good, even if they believe all other opinions are Evil and Wrong.


----------



## vikki92

To answer Fayes questions, when my horse was suffering my dad went out and shot her in the head and he dug a hole and buried her. but thats not eating!!


----------



## vikki92

To delete. WOW! just becasue a horse may act unloveable dont mean you cant love them! i have been around a many of horse who made me mad, but that dont mean they deserve to die!! i have a horse who gets under my skin but that dont mean i dont love him. i have family members who just are very grrrrrr but that dont mean i dont love them. i love all horse i dont care how they act or look!! im not picky when it comes to horses! if i had the money i would gladly go out and get all the homeless horses!! just becasue i think like this dont mean im immature or stupid!! i have lived around horses my whole life!!!!!! all my 19 years i have been on this earth!! i may not be an xpert but im not horse dumb!!


----------



## Dayane

Speed Racer said:


> Dayane, it's a controversial topic. You don't need to feel sorry for bringing it up, so no need for apologies.
> 
> Although you yourself don't advocate slaughter, you don't have an issue with someone else doing it. As long as you respect different choices, I have no problem if you don't agree with me.
> 
> However, as you can see, there are those who think they have moral superiority over others who don't agree with their opinion, and think the world should do AS THEY SAY, because theirs is the only opinion that matters. :?
> 
> Certain people are unable to realize that the world doesn't_ have_ to conform to what they have specifically deemed as Right and Good, even if they believe all other opinions are Evil and Wrong.


I know, it's the reason why I wouldn't ask this question, and it's the reason why I won't say why I'm against it, because everyone have his own opinion, and I'm totaly respectful of that.


----------



## faye

Vikki you are obviously not a mature 19 years!

I've met more then one horse that was better off dead. Infact I had one shot and been part of the decision with anouther. The horse in question was not only dangerous but it activly attacked people. I tried to sort it myself, I sent it to several top class proffessionals, the final straw came when the horse attacked the trainer and put him in ICU for 3 weeks! At that point we decided the horse was better off dead. We bought the horse at a market, it had been doped to the eyeballs and had passed from pillar to post for over 5 years. That horse was going to kill someone, infact he had tried several times I could not have it on my concience if he did it to someone else. We tried everything before deciding that it was in his best interest to go on to the rainbowbridge.

I've also known a section A yearling who was a nasty piece of work and had no reason to be, you couldnt go into the stable on your own with him, you had to go in with 2 others and wearing full helmets and body protector. It was decided that he was too nasty to be a childs pony and it was in his best intrests to be PTS


----------



## faye

Oh and mother just reminded me of her lovely old hunter Oscar who we decided to have PTS because of his behavior.

He was a wonderful horse untill he was involved in a stable fire and was badly burned. He came to associate people with the painful changing of dressings, with skin grafts and with pain.
We tried for 4 years after wards to rehab him, we tried turning him away and just giving him a brush each day unfortunalty he started attacking anyone who went into the field and as the field was near a housing estate (and thus children) we could not risk it, we tried re educating him about handling on a private yard but it became too dangerous, we tried putting him in an environment where he was handled every day and it was a pleasent form of handling, we tried NH, conventional methods, everything.
Unfortunatly it all came to a head one day when he came over the stable door at one of the stable hands, picked her up by her ear and ripped her ear off. where do you go from there?
Though he was very much loved there is only so much risk you can take with a horse. Passing him on would have been cruel in the extreme and we ran out of options so we had him taken away by the hunt, he was loaded onto a lorry, taken to the hunt kennels, had his head in a bucket of feed, loud bang and that was it, he was then fed to the hounds.

Some horses are just dangerous no matter how much you love them, some horses are nasty pieces of work that cannot be handled, some horses have had horrific experiances that mean whilst they are not suffering physically they may well be suffering mentaly. Often the kindest thing to do is to have these animals PTS so that they cannot fall into the wrong hands and so that they do not suffer through ignorance or fear.


----------



## .Delete.

vikki92 said:


> To delete. WOW! just becasue a horse may act unloveable dont mean you cant love them! i have been around a many of horse who made me mad, but that dont mean they deserve to die!! i have a horse who gets under my skin but that dont mean i dont love him. i have family members who just are very grrrrrr but that dont mean i dont love them. i love all horse i dont care how they act or look!! im not picky when it comes to horses! if i had the money i would gladly go out and get all the homeless horses!! just becasue i think like this dont mean im immature or stupid!! i have lived around horses my whole life!!!!!! all my 19 years i have been on this earth!! i may not be an xpert but im not horse dumb!!


Like the others stated, some horses are a danger to themselves and others around them. In that case they are better off being euthanized.

What you say and the way you say it tells me your much younger then you claim. But who knows, perhaps your just a very poorly educated 19 year old.


----------



## Speed Racer

vikki92 said:


> To answer Fayes questions, when my horse was suffering my dad went out and shot her in the head and he dug a hole and buried her. but thats not eating!!


As long as the animal had a good life and a _humane_ death those are the ONLY things that matter, not if it was eaten. The animal's dead, what you do with its carcass only matters to_ you_.

If you've been around horses your WHOLE LIFE, how come you're so rabidly anti equine slaughter? _Most_ people whose livelihoods even partially depend upon livestock have a realistic view of the world, not some pie in the sky idea that horses are 'more special' than any other animal.

If you don't ever want to send a horse to slaughter, that's your right. What's NOT your right is to tell others that they can't if they so choose.

You think everyone who doesn't have a problem with equine slaughter is horrible and cruel, but you don't have any real solutions to the problem of too many horses and not enough homes. Typical of the anti movement; they hate something, but think it's someone_ else's_ responsibility to make their desires come true without any icky REALITY actually entering into the picture.


----------



## faye

Delete I too think she is much younger then she says she is. sorry but that hysterical clattrap is not what I would expect from anyone over the age of 12!


----------



## vikki92

Well think what you want to but i really am 19 yrs old i can show u a picture of my drivers lie. or birth cer. my birthday is 2/9/1992!!!!!!


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## MacabreMikolaj

vikki92 said:


> to answer fayes questions, when my horse was suffering my dad went out and shot her in the head and he dug a hole and buried her. But thats not eating!!


Murderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DrumRunner

**** MM!!

Vikki, YEAH! That is soooooooo smart!! Post your drivers license or birth certificate on a public forum! That isn't stupid as h*** at all! I wish I had thought of that..darn..


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## vikki92

@DR just casue i said it didnt mean i was going to gosh!! just trying to defend my self. all im doing is stateing the way I believe! im not telling everyone to do as i say!! im just saying what I think! just like the rest of yall! 
i really dont care if yall believe im 19 or not! that really dont have anything to do with anything!


----------



## Quariesian

I agee with the fact that some horses are beyond saving. I knew this insane stallion once at a stable where I was riding. He would kick and buck all frickin day long in his stall and we were strickly told to never go in his stall because he was dangerous and would attack anyone who went in, they used him in their breeding program. That's the type of horse that isn't fit to be around people, and they had tried everything to get him under control. Some genes he was passing on temperment wise.


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## hflmusicislife

Well, reading this thread was clearly an hour well spent. Some of you guys are hilarious :wink:

Vikki- When you end up with a broken jaw from a horse who was (unfortunately) saved from slaughter, then try to tell me every horse should be kept alive. No one on here is trying to say they _want _horses to die, however sometimes it is certainly appropriate for a horse's life to be ended if they are suffering or becoming a danger to other horses or humans. 
I also have to agree with everyone else; you do not sound 19. If you were 19, I sure hope you'd be mature enough to accept others thoughts and not get so defensive about it. I'm 14, and even I feel I act more maturely than you... Just because you have a different opinion than other doesn't make it right to start telling everyone else they're wrong. That's why they're called opinions, not facts :wink:


----------



## vikki92

hflmusicislife said:


> Well, reading this thread was clearly an hour well spent. Some of you guys are hilarious :wink:
> 
> Vikki- When you end up with a broken jaw from a horse who was (unfortunately) saved from slaughter, then try to tell me every horse should be kept alive. No one on here is trying to say they _want _horses to die, however sometimes it is certainly appropriate for a horse's life to be ended if they are suffering or becoming a danger to other horses or humans.
> I also have to agree with everyone else; you do not sound 19. If you were 19, I sure hope you'd be mature enough to accept others thoughts and not get so defensive about it. I'm 14, and even I feel I act more maturely than you... Just because you have a different opinion than other doesn't make it right to start telling everyone else they're wrong. That's why they're called opinions, not facts :wink:


well i am 19. guess its just my personality! lol! i am known for my attitude lol! just ask my husband lol!


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## Hlover

The problem with horse slaughter being illegal is them being shipped in humanely to Mexico hooooowever considering how messed up the food system in America is it is a terrible end for a horse(not to say that other countries kill the animals inhumanely) but I know for a fact in America they were if our slaughter houses wer more regulated and the workers wer treated right it wouldn't be the worst thing but as is it is a terrible thing. However I could respect the frenchs opinion on slaughter but I don't want to eat any animal that is killed that unsanitarilly from my own country. 

I'm just wondering so don't get mad or anything but how do the people (pro slaughter) balance your opinion of owning and riding a horse and eating them too? Just wondering since it is a horse forum and all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner

HHAHAHAHAHA! Oh my god. Tears...

Vikki, why do EVERYONE of your sentences end with an exclamation point? I think I am just about done with this thread but really, the 14 year old just made you seem 10. I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I am just wasting my breath.. smh..


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## hflmusicislife

DrumRunner said:


> HHAHAHAHAHA! Oh my god. Tears...
> 
> Vikki, why do EVERYONE of your sentences end with an exclamation point? I think I am just about done with this thread but really, the 14 year old just made you seem 10. I'm not going to argue with you anymore because I am just wasting my breath.. smh..


I was gonna ask if there's no period key on her keyboard, but I figured that might've been over-doing it :wink:


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## vikki92

hflmusicislife said:


> I was gonna ask if there's no period key on her keyboard, but I figured that might've been over-doing it :wink:


I guess its just one of those keyboard habits, you know like some people write in all CAPS. 
and im one the most MATURE people, have been told this by lots of people. just becasue i dont agree with everything dont mean im a inmature little kid! im not trying to agrue with any of yall and im sorry if i came off like that, its just when i believe in something i try to put all my heart & mind into it, thats just the way i was raised, disgree if you want. i dont want this whole fourm to be grrr towards to me just becasue i disagree with some things, im sure not everyone in this fourm agrees all 100 percent on anything, we are all deffernt and have diffrent ideas on things ands thats ok, i have mine yall have yours life goes on!
Sorry if I made people mad. !!!!!  lol!


----------



## Katesrider011

Hlover said:


> The problem with horse slaughter being illegal is them being shipped in humanely to Mexico hooooowever considering how messed up the food system in America is it is a terrible end for a horse(not to say that other countries kill the animals inhumanely) but I know for a fact in America they were if our slaughter houses wer more regulated and the workers wer treated right it wouldn't be the worst thing but as is it is a terrible thing. However I could respect the frenchs opinion on slaughter but I don't want to eat any animal that is killed that unsanitarilly from my own country.
> 
> I'm just wondering so don't get mad or anything but how do the people (pro slaughter) balance your opinion of owning and riding a horse and eating them too? Just wondering since it is a horse forum and all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It depends on the person. Im pro slaughter but i wont eat a horse, because i own one. If i owned cows I probably wouldnt be able to eat beef either. Like I said it all depends on the person.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I'm not sure what being pro-slaughter has to do with riding and loving horses. Cats and dogs are euthanized every single day, and I still own them as pets. I don't like waste, and if we could find a way to use cat and dog carcasses, I sure wish we would.

Slaughter is a necessary evil in my mind. Being as how we don't as a culture eat horses, I DON'T have a vested interest in horses being slaughtered such as I do with pigs, cows, chickens, etc. Would I prefer horses DIDN'T have to be slaughtered? Of course. But I also think it's absolutely stupidly foolish to waste hundreds of thousands of carcasses a year because a few people have a hang up about eating what THEY consider a pet. If they have to die ANYWAY, I would much prefer they be slaughtered and used.

Being against slaughter is living in a fantasy world - until you find a solution to all of the thousands of unwanted horses being produced every single year, slaughter will continue to be a necessary evil. We simply do not have the economy nor resources to support thousands of horses that nobody wants because of a few sentiments. If they're not being slaughtered, they WILL starve to death and quite frankly I find it sickening and disgusting that anybody could be so naive, innocent and ignorant as to actually believe ending slaughter will "save all the pretty horses". No, it WON'T, they just die a LOT more horrifically.


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## vivache

I work at an animal sanctuary. We are currently nursing a horse who does not need to live, with her amount of pain.

If any horse I owned had to go through what she is, I'd be glad to send them to be used for meat. It's better than the alternative.


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## myhorsesonador

Ok wow I just read all thoughs pages.  

I'm pro slaughter. If I ran out of food you'll be glad to know that after I eat what little meat is on my brother that my horse would be next!

To the 2 that are trying to cause a stink. Learn how to spell and maybe learn some grammer. Your posts make my head hurt.

Oh and BTW If you want to claim that you are 19, act like it. You give kids our age a bad name. You sicken me. I'm 18 just so you know. I also don't know why you keep pushing that you are married. What does that have to do with any thing? Sounds very childish to me.


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## vikki92

myhorsesonador said:


> Ok wow I just read all thoughs pages.
> 
> I'm pro slaughter. If I ran out of food you'll be glad to know that after I eat what little meat is on my brother that my horse would be next!
> 
> To the 2 that are trying to cause a stink. Learn how to spell and maybe learn some grammer. Your posts make my head hurt.
> 
> Oh and BTW If you want to claim that you are 19, act like it. You give kids our age a bad name. You sicken me. I'm 18 just so you know. I also don't know why you keep pushing that you are married. What does that have to do with any thing? Sounds very childish to me.


 everyone has there own opions. and spelling has never be my best subject sorry no ones perfect (didnt know this was grammer school). and if i do recall i only said i was married once. sorry if i sicken you! but i still stand by to what i believe in! yes i know im stubborn.  lol!


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## myhorsesonador

vikki92 said:


> everyone has there own opions. and spelling has never be my best subject sorry no ones perfect (didnt know this was grammer school). and if i do recall i only said i was married once. sorry if i sicken you! but i still stand by to what i believe in! yes i know im stubborn.  lol!


at least try to sound edgamacted. I be home teached so I be very smart. I is stubbbbborrun as well.

See how hard that is to read? It's so hard I had to think to even type that way. If you wan't to sound your age there is a spell check on most sites. I'm not the best speller in the world, so if I don't feel like I spelled some thing right I use microsoft word.


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## vikki92

myhorsesonador said:


> at least try to sound edgamacted. I be home teached so I be very smart. I is stubbbbborrun as well.
> 
> See how hard that is to read? It's so hard I had to think to even type that way. If you wan't to sound your age there is a spell check on most sites. I'm not the best speller in the world, so if I don't feel like I spelled some thing right I use microsoft word.


 sorry! i dont really take my time when i type on sites like fb or hf didnt think it was such a big deal! lol i hope you never see my mom type, u would never be able to read it lol! (no hard feelings)


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## faye

Vikki. You may be physically 19 but honestly you come accross s a spoilt child who is uneducated enough to believe that oppinion is fact and that stopping slaughter will save horses from death.

Grow up!

The only thing you get with age is wrinkles, everything else you have to work for. Which means that you need to go away and educate yourself to the point where you can respect others oppinions and take them onboard. Calling everyone who eats meat a "murderer" is the hysterical reaction I would expect from a 10 yearold child. If you want people to listen to your point of view then you need to state it calmly and objectivly and with facts to back you up.

Please stop useing exclamation marks after every sentance. If you cant use punctuation correctly then please go and learn how.


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## Henk Plompen

Just for the record:
- eating horse meat is not illegal in the UK, it is just not done, there is no market.
- In France horses are not bread for meat, because it is too expensive. When horses are put down, they are indeed eaten.

I don't know if this is the right forum for ethical discussions, but the animals people eat are very culturally defined.
In India, they don't eat their Holy Cow.
Muslims don't eat pigs.
In China they eat dogs (in fact they eat anything there).
In Japan they eat rainworms.

Unless you are a vegetarian, I thing you have ethically very little ground to stand on.
No matter how much you personally dislike it, as soon as you judge this I am afraid you are slightly narrow-minded - with all due respect.

I am a biologist, and I hate to see how far townees are from nature.
If you don't understand the food pyramid, you don't understand nature.
I once had a discussion with an animal welfare guy that believed we should feed the lions at the zoo soja burgers, as long as there are hungry people in the world.
I could see his point of view, but someway I thing the lions wouldn't agree...

I do apologize if I offended anybody.

Henk


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## lacyloo

*One mans pet is another mans dinner.* :wink:


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## lacyloo

Welcome to the forum, Henk.


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## Saddlebag

A friend visited a rural area of Norway when the folk still used horses for pulling carts thro the mountainous areas. He recalled just such a trip up the mountain with an old Fjord horse pulling the cart with a young horse tied on behind. On the return trip the young yourse was hitched and the old one had been left at the butcher's. Too much meat to waste when times are frugal. At the rate our population is growing within a hundred years we will be eating anything that moves if it's edible.


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## DrumRunner

Vikki, being "stubborn" is not an excuse. Yes, people have their opinions. We would listen to your's if you made more sense. Being married has nothing to do with your attitude and closemindness of things. You are just making it worse for yourself by saying things like that. You are always defensive and immature about everything we try to explain to you. Grow up a little before you try to post on another thread that seems over your head. Also, please try to at least make sense in your sentences. It would be so much easier for the people trying to read it if you would atleast spell check some words that you try to use. Using exclamation marks in every sentence is not necessary and all of your smilies just make you seem younger.

Hlover, I am pro-slaughter..I am not saying that I would eat my horses, unless necessary, like the world ending and I had to to survive. Having and riding horses have nothing to do with being for slaughter or against it. I agree that some horses are better off euthanized or a quick shot to the head. I think the slaughter houses should be able to open back up. I will say that I think they could be run a little smoother. Horses are livestock just like cows, pigs, chickens, and any other animal intended to human consumption. They are bred for that purpose. PETA and SHARK are groups of insane people who make decisions to show the absolute worst parts of the situations they animals are put in. They don't show the houses that are in fine working order and are run like every other livestock slaughter house. Just because the houses have been closed in American doesn't save the horses like some people think. The horses are just confined in a trailer longer to the houses in places like Mexico. 

I personally would rather a horse die with a quick show than starve to death in a field where the owner left them to die. In today's economy people can't pay for the expenses of horses, so what do they do? They leave them unable to care for them then are charged with animal cruelty. It would have been a better end for the horse to travel to the slaughter house or be killed quick than stay in a situation where they are miserable and die slowly. I could go on and on with the reasons why I am pro-slaughter but that would just be wasting my breath on someone (Vikki) closeminded and who won't see and respect another's opinions. Vikki, I think you are an irresponsible owner and you are one of the people who would collect horses thinking you are doing them a favor. It's not that way. Grow up, learn some TRUE facts and then you might be abke to come back and make sense in your opinions and you "attitude".


OH and when you get run over by a horse who should have been shot or euthanized and you thought you could "change" because you "Wuv all horsies foreber and want to save dem all because they will wuv you back for sabing dem." Dont come back asking why it happened. We all know..

Sorry this is such a book. I haven't been able to be around my computer all weekend. It has beeen killing me to read and not respond. Had to say my opinion on everything.


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## hflmusicislife

Drum, I could not agree with you more...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

vikki92 said:


> I guess its just one of those keyboard habits, you know like some people write in all CAPS.
> and im one the most MATURE people, have been told this by lots of people. just becasue i dont agree with everything dont mean im a inmature little kid! im not trying to agrue with any of yall and im sorry if i came off like that, its just when i believe in something i try to put all my heart & mind into it, thats just the way i was raised, disgree if you want.


I believe the reason most people are not willing to believe you are actually 19 is not that you are disagreeing with them, or that you are using too many commas and not enough periods.

It has to do with how you are disagreeing.

Truly mature people do not throw a temper tantrum to get their point across. Most of your posts in this thread have pretty much been a temper tantrum.

Go back and read them. You will realize why people are questioning your age.

If you truly want to put your heart into the 'problem' of slaughter then do some research. Real research. Really use your mind. Develop your side of the argument with facts and real information. That will win people over far more than tantrums and name calling.



Welcome, Hank.
I think that the fact that some ethnic groups eat dogs and cats would be a great outlet for the unwanted pet population in the US. Too bad we simply euthanize and dispose of all that meat.


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## vikki92

Alwaysbehind said:


> I believe the reason most people are not willing to believe you are actually 19 is not that you are disagreeing with them, or that you are using too many commas and not enough periods.
> 
> It has to do with how you are disagreeing.
> 
> Truly mature people do not throw a temper tantrum to get their point across. Most of your posts in this thread have pretty much been a temper tantrum.
> 
> Go back and read them. You will realize why people are questioning your age.
> 
> If you truly want to put your heart into the 'problem' of slaughter then do some research. Real research. Really use your mind. Develop your side of the argument with facts and real information. That will win people over far more than tantrums and name calling.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome, Hank.
> I think that the fact that some ethnic groups eat dogs and cats would be a great outlet for the unwanted pet population in the US. Too bad we simply euthanize and dispose of all that meat.


I sorry I didnt mean for it to sound like a temper tantrum, I wasnt having a temper tantrum on my end on the line. And sorry for not useing perfect grammer and spelling, I dont go over what I have typed over again I just type. I'm not trying to disagree with you I'm just standing up for myself on the matter, I know my spelling & grammer is wrong (and I'm not the only person on this fourm who isnt grammer perfect)
sorry if this sounds like im throwing a temper tantrum. 
And as for the eating horses and killing them, I cant get "Facts" on what I believe in, its just one of those things that I know is wrong and I wish I could do something about it, wishful thinking huh? I know eating horses is probably the smart thing to do when theres no other food to eat and putting down horses who are killer themselves. It just hurts me to know this is going on.
So sorry if I agrued with any of yall, I wasnt meaning to i was just trying to word my opinions.


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## Speed Racer

Vikki, you're most certainly allowed to have your opinions. 

I don't have an issue with someone who is anti equine slaughter, as long as they're not denigrating me for having a different opinion.

Too many times the antis start shrieking about how those of us who don't have a problem with equines going to slaughter MUST BE evil, cruel, and couldn't possibly love our own animals, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

I love all my animals dearly, but it's not my place to tell others what they can and can't do with their own livestock. The fact that I don't have a problem with someone who wants to eat horses has _no_ bearing on whether or not I consider my own animals as pets.

If you've ever eaten imported salami or pepperoni, you've eaten horse meat.


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## Alwaysbehind

Vikki, none of us (well, with a few exceptions of course) use proper grammar and spelling.

Don't worry about that. Simply do your best. I was only stating that is why everyone thinks you are far younger than the age you state.


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## Moonstruck

@[email protected] SO MUCH READING....

Now that I have finally gotten to the last page I can speak.

I'm kind of going both ways on this... UNFORTUNATELY, overpopulation of the human-kind is an issue, so we have to feed everybody. Can't do much about preventing the increase in population - soon we will have to make homes underwater and finding an earth-substitute somewhere in the universe hasn't yet been discovered. 

And to be perfectly honest, I love salami and pepperoni. And if i had ever in the past unknowingly put horse meat in my mouth, well, it was **** tasty. 

Now, Bear Grylls, if you asked him to gut a horse and climb in its belly to keep warm if we were suffering from a global ice age - I'm sure he'd dive right in. WITHOUT there being that drastic of a situation.

Vikki - as a 20 year old, who in the past watched all of peta's videos in horror, I didn't shed a tear. Sure I was sad for the baby seal being clubbed and the hundred of dogs and cats being tested on and the monkey being abused. And they did pretty good when taking down Michael Vic. But, I REALLY just want to be able to feed my tummy some bacon.

If all of the cows were raised like kobe cows - that'd be fine and dandy. But I've gotta live by survival of the fittest. Charles Darwin takes my vote on this one guys.


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## bubba13

I'm really curious what Darwin has to do with eating cows?


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## Alwaysbehind

I thought of this thread when I saw a show listed called; Kill, cook, eat. (Or something like that.)


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## tempest

bubba13 said:


> I'm really curious what Darwin has to do with eating cows?


Social Darwinism: survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, eat or be eaten. 

Social Darwinism

Social Darwinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Moonstruck

bubba13 said:


> I'm really curious what Darwin has to do with eating cows?


Survival of the fittest - you do all you can to survive. Eating = survival?


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## Moonstruck

Alwaysbehind said:


> I thought of this thread when I saw a show listed called; Kill, cook, eat. (Or something like that.)


OMG i watched that!  Very informative I actually only saw one episode but it was very interesting to see vegans and vegetarians kill and cook and sometimes eat the meats  I giggled in their disgust lol


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## bubba13

Social Darwinism is a *******ization of Charles Darwin's ideas--not at all what he meant, and used to justify all sorts of ethical nightmares and inequalities. He said survival of the _fittest_, not _strongest_, but sadly the latter is what a lot of people interpret.

It's not "kill or be killed." It's "adapt to your environment or face extinction."


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## Moonstruck

Adapting to your environment also means adapting to surviving on your surroundings. Hell I'd eat BUGS if thats all I had but a horse would be a grand prize to find but as i know nothing of hunting I wouldn't know how to preserve it properly.


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## arkangel

yay me to i love horses to much and im apart of stop the abuse and slaughter so im just saying gross


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## bubba13

Survival would work if we were natural-born carnivores. We're not. We're omnivores. People CAN eat meat, and in some cultures/environments where alternative mineral and protein sources are not available, people probably HAVE to eat meat. But that's actually a pretty rare scenario. Historically, and in terms of evolution, people are meant to eat a largely plant-based diet with only occasional meals of animal origin. In this day and age, it is perfectly feasible and healthy to survive as a vegetarian or vegan. In fact, it's much healthier than the typical American meat- and fat-saturated diet. Now is it expensive and impractical? Sure. But it can absolutely be done, and it has many benefits, ethical, health, and otherwise.


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## Moonstruck

mmmmm......bacon.....


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## Moonstruck

dripping bloody meaty steak @[email protected] I wants. With A1 sauce on the side too please


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## Speed Racer

Bubba, the theory is that humans got their big brains from being able to utilize animal protein as well as plants. It was the animal protein that allowed us to surpass the other mammals in cognitive abilities and functions.

So, if we gots our big brains from da meats, does that mean da vegetarians iz getting smaller brains? :wink:

Bacon is great! As are pork chops, venison steaks, beef roast, salmon, lobster, crabs, shrimp, and chicken any way you can fix it. I don't eat a lot of meat, but I try and eat some type of animal protein once or twice a week.

There's room for all of God's creatures; on my plate, next to the mashed potatoes.


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## Moonstruck

I see what you're sayin, but i tried going vegetarian and it wasn't for me. Not enough bacon involved with the equation. No disrespect for those who do not prefer meat. I dont doubt that its healthier and I sometimes wish that i COULD adjust to that, but *sigh* no....can't part with the glory of pigs and cows and lovely chickens.


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## Moonstruck

"vegetarians kill the rainforest!"


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## DrumRunner

Lol moonstruck..I like mine with ranch dressing..french if I want to be a little wild..and a little cup of the juicy goodness that comes off the steak after you get it off the grill..yum yum..

And mashed potatoes like SR..with cheese and a little garlic in them..

Then chocolate mousse pie..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck

Have you ever had fresh roast pig like straight from the fire pit? 

The skin......dear god the skin is so crispy and orgasmic....


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## DrumRunner

Heck yes! We kill a wild hog and roast him up allll day putting a kinda Cajun sauce on him..fantastic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck

Never tried it with fresh dressing but isn't the like thousand island? (aka mayo, ketchup mixed together and some other ingredient that i don't remember) I usually mix the two for fried chicken or french fries. On my McDouble at mcdonalds I'll get some mac sauce on it. Which funny enough is thousand island dressing.


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## Moonstruck

Moonstruck said:


> Never tried it with fresh dressing but isn't the like thousand island? (aka mayo, ketchup mixed together and some other ingredient that i don't remember) I usually mix the two for fried chicken or french fries. On my McDouble at mcdonalds I'll get some mac sauce on it. Which funny enough is thousand island dressing.


GOD this makes me sound like i have a terrible diet lol
No I'm at work and just had a handful of trail mix and a cup of key lime garlic shrimp. Courtesy of Whole Foods


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## DrumRunner

Lol its way better..I eat ranch with almost everything..but french is really good with like steaks, pork chops, pot roast, really any thing that once walked..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner

I do have a terrible diet..im going to get yelled at for saying it too..seriously, I eat NO fruits or veggies..I have lived my whole 22 year life off of junk food and meats..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck

DrumRunner said:


> Lol its way better..I eat ranch with almost everything..but french is really good with like steaks, pork chops, pot roast, really any thing that once walked..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its my mandatory condiment. I always have to have it on the side with most fatty foods that I eat, which is fairly rare. I'll have to try it with my regular dinners. This is groundbreaking. I now know that my habit has a multipurpose use! :twisted:


----------



## Moonstruck

DrumRunner said:


> I do have a terrible diet..im going to get yelled at for saying it too..seriously, I eat NO fruits or veggies..I have lived my whole 22 year life off of junk food and meats..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL you sound a lot like my sister. Except she's 24 :lol: she hates eating veggies and I dont recal the last time she picked up any kind of fruit. She's a real carnivore, that one.


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## DrumRunner

That's funny..I eat alot of potatoes, pastas and breads too though..I hate rice..unless its with chinese..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck

DrumRunner said:


> That's funny..I eat alot of potatoes, pastas and breads too though..I hate rice..unless its with chinese..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Omg bread is my life. I can't have a day where i'm not eating it. Which is where my large latina booty comes from. And i grew up eating rice with just about everything, lol


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## bubba13

Speed Racer said:


> Bubba, the theory is that humans got their big brains from being able to utilize animal protein as well as plants. It was the animal protein that allowed us to surpass the other mammals in cognitive abilities and functions.
> 
> So, if we gots our big brains from da meats, does that mean da vegetarians iz getting smaller brains? :wink:


That is an interesting theory and I've never heard anything to conclusively prove or disprove it. Could very well be the case.

I'm not denying that people need protein. Obviously they do--it's vital for survival (of all organisms, not just humans). But in this day and age, there are plenty of meat-alternative options that provide the proteins we need. Probably isn't true on a strictly hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but maybe it is. It's just a matter of a diversified plant/vegetable/grain/fruit diet. With the supplements you can purchase in the supermarket now, and the availability of nutritious, balanced, vegetarian options, one can absolutely survive and thrive as a 21st century vegan. Which sort of undermines the "eat or be eaten" argument. We aren't wild animals anymore...


----------



## Moonstruck

i'm a wild animal..... you can ask my boyfriend


----------



## Moonstruck

We sure tackled that roast pig like we were animals - ripping that crisp skin off and stuffing it in our mouths not even waiting till it was on our plates. There was a crowd of ***** around that thing. You don't think we're animals?... I'm very surprised.


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## bubba13

*****? Seriously?


----------



## Moonstruck

Oh yes, WE EXIST...c'mon bubba, lighten up. I'm hispanic, so I am allowed to say that. Sorry if you're offended for whatever reason that may be. But all I'm saying, all humans have animalistic attributes to them. You can't deny that. But you have, so, I guess thats where you stand on the other side of the line and I stand on the other.


----------



## bubba13

I am offended, quite frankly, just as I'd be offended by a black person (or anyone else) saying "*****." It's just horribly inappropriate and it perpetuates stereotypes, racism, and a sense of us vs. them.

Of course we're bloody animals. But we're not wild, again like I said, and we are no longer bound by Darwin's laws. If we were, most of us would be dead by now. With my 20/80 vision, I might not have lasted long. Thank God for contacts...


----------



## faye

I'm so blind without my contacts that a lion would have to be in my face before I could see it.

I'd have been eaten long ago.


----------



## Moonstruck

Okay, but they do say "*****". It takes up like 95% of most of their conversations so I would hope and assume that you have learned to understand and deal with it, regardless of your sensitivities to the word. I have appologized about me saying it as well, and with that I believe that I can still stand up and say "I'm a ****!" And will.

And I know what you mean as far as eyesight goes, I'm practically blind and own glasses.


----------



## bubba13

> Okay, but they do say "*****". It takes up like 95% of most of their conversations


Oh good (vegetarian) gravy....


----------



## Moonstruck

You'd be surprised how wild people can be in other parts of the world and in other cultures for the sake of survival. But as americans, I think we'd fail as far as having and finding the resources to survive as successfully as the natives in other countries would if we hadn't been so spoiled.


----------



## Moonstruck

bubba13 said:


> oh good (vegetarian) gravy....


Exactly!  Good job.


----------



## Moonstruck

Didn't think vegetarian was an ethnic category but sure i guess we can work that in next to pacific islander.


----------



## Moonstruck

lol not sure if i read your sentence right but i made it look like you were using "vegetarian" as one would use "*****" in a sentence lol my bad. holy brainfart batman.


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## bubba13

No, that was not my intention....

I'm just aghas....never mind. Carry on.


----------



## Moonstruck

No i know what you meant now lol but anyways all racism and ethnicities aside. I personally believe we are all still pretty wild (of course not as wild as we once were or as wild as animals) but it is a current attribute in todays world. Not calling natives wild animals just saying they survive amongst themselves just as a pack of wolves would survive in the wilderness. I find that admirable. But we as a more sophisticated race of human - have grocery stores and restaurants to cater to us, but once in a while we manage to kill and forage on our own and do pretty well that way. Social Darwinism is just a small part of what I believe to be beneficial. Look at it this way - if we WERE like the natives, we wouldn't find soya burgers hidden underground somewhere, and we wouldn't find non-dairy cheese anywhere. Like wolves our source of vegetables would come from the contents of a prey animal's stomach. And THAT my friends - is a can of stewed veggies  so if you personally were a native how would you survive? I think in the wild protein sort of outgrows mulitple sources of vegetables UNLESS we had seeds and that is possible but what if your climate couldn't grow them successfully and as hunter gatherers we wouldn't be able to sit and wait for a plant to grow...because we'd always be following the migration pattern of prey animals. 

Just sayin!


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## Alwaysbehind

Moonstruck you can edit a post for awhile after you post it. There is no reason for you to have endless quantities of double posts.


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## Moonstruck

Sorry always my brain switches a lot from one thing to the next. >_<

I'll be sure to keep that in mind. And keep it to a minimum.

By the way cute rat, I love rats I used to have them as pets  Although I'm sure that one isn't yours.


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## DrumRunner

Ugh..that rat pic makes me sad..I miss suicide teddy..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

DrumRunner said:


> Ugh..that rat pic makes me sad..I miss suicide teddy..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry.

I will work on getting something more appropriate. Give me a bit. Then if that is a fail I can go back to teddy, how is that for a deal?


Rat is pretty darn cute though!


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## Moonstruck

Never met suicide teddy but i will have my chance once he is resurrected lol


----------



## bubba13

But my point is that we DON'T live in the jungle and thus any argument to that effect is moot....


----------



## Moonstruck

Yeah you're right bubba - we got it good


----------



## DrumRunner

Ok. That should work. I just don't think the rat matches your personality??..I don't know. Im used to your 'take that!' Posts..the cute rat just doesn't fit..lol sorry, I probably sound crazy..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twogeldings

I'm *pro slaughter* but *against* inhumane treatment. 

Closing the US plants was a completely brainless idea, IMO. You know what they do to them in Mexico? Hello double-decker, hello very inhumane treatment. 

A lot of people yelled: SAVE THE HORSES!
While in the background, horse dealers were snickering: Send them to Mexico!


Just my two cents


----------



## chevaliernr

Just spent half an hour reading this thread instead of writing my term papers...:lol:



Moonstruck said:


> No i know what you meant now lol but anyways all racism and ethnicities aside. I personally believe we are all still pretty wild (of course not as wild as we once were or as wild as animals) but it is a current attribute in todays world. Not calling natives wild animals just saying they survive amongst themselves just as a pack of wolves would survive in the wilderness. I find that admirable. But we as a more sophisticated race of human - have grocery stores and restaurants to cater to us, but once in a while we manage to kill and forage on our own and do pretty well that way. Social Darwinism is just a small part of what I believe to be beneficial. Look at it this way - if we WERE like the natives, we wouldn't find soya burgers hidden underground somewhere, and we wouldn't find non-dairy cheese anywhere. Like wolves our source of vegetables would come from the contents of a prey animal's stomach. And THAT my friends - is a can of stewed veggies  so if you personally were a native how would you survive? I think in the wild protein sort of outgrows mulitple sources of vegetables UNLESS we had seeds and that is possible but what if your climate couldn't grow them successfully and as hunter gatherers we wouldn't be able to sit and wait for a plant to grow...because we'd always be following the migration pattern of prey animals.
> 
> Just sayin!


Moonstruck, I disagree with your with your classification of industrialized societies as "more sophisticated." Maybe this isn't what you intended and I'm just being picky with your words, but this notion of the "primitive hunter-gatherer" and "sophisticated civilization" is a Eurocentric, westernized, industrial view of the world. 

I also wouldn't say that we're better off than historical or modern-day foragers. People's health and nutrition actually declined with the advent of agriculture. And today, I'm sure many foraging societies' resources are much healthier and wholesome than the crap we buy at the supermarket. In many Native American populations, health problems such as diabetes and obesity were virtually unheard of because of the food they ate and their lifestyle, but is now a huge problem because many are dependent on federal issued processed, unhealthy foods.

And to the vegetarians who believe that we were not intended to eat meat, neither were we intended to eat starchy plants. Human teeth were worn down because they weren't meant to process starchy plants. Also, if you think about it, agriculture is very much to blame for so many of today's environmental problems. Agriculture almost always preceded or followed increases in population number and density. The downfall of many civilizations can be attributed to environmental degradation, something that we are doing at a global scale today (an oversimplification). 

And to at least stay remotely on topic after my tangets, I have no problem with horse meat consumption.

Back to writing term papers...


----------



## Moonstruck

Cheva ~ I wasn't quite talking about nutrition but more about finding ways to eat. Whether something is more or less healthy or safer than the other I am not sure. I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure where it differs from what I had said.. :-/


----------



## chevaliernr

Understood. Looking back at it, I can see where my tangent stopped being a direct address to what you said. Just take the first part as directed towards you, then. :wink:


----------



## kevinshorses

chevaliernr said:


> Just spent half an hour reading this thread instead of writing my term papers...:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Moonstruck, I disagree with your with your classification of industrialized societies as "more sophisticated." Maybe this isn't what you intended and I'm just being picky with your words, but this notion of the "primitive hunter-gatherer" and "sophisticated civilization" is a Eurocentric, westernized, industrial view of the world.
> 
> I also wouldn't say that we're better off than historical or modern-day foragers. People's health and nutrition actually declined with the advent of agriculture. And today, I'm sure many foraging societies' resources are much healthier and wholesome than the crap we buy at the supermarket. In many Native American populations, health problems such as diabetes and obesity were virtually unheard of because of the food they ate and their lifestyle, but is now a huge problem because many are dependent on federal issued processed, unhealthy foods.
> 
> And to the vegetarians who believe that we were not intended to eat meat, neither were we intended to eat starchy plants. Human teeth were worn down because they weren't meant to process starchy plants. Also, if you think about it, agriculture is very much to blame for so many of today's environmental problems. Agriculture almost always preceded or followed increases in population number and density. The downfall of many civilizations can be attributed to environmental degradation, something that we are doing at a global scale today (an oversimplification).
> 
> And to at least stay remotely on topic after my tangets, I have no problem with horse meat consumption.
> 
> Back to writing term papers...


I hope you are not a history major because if so you are in danger of failing. 

Agriculture lenghtened peoples lifespan and gave the population a steady food supply that required less effort which gave them more time to further civilize thier lives.


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## Moonstruck

lol okay 

Well hmm...I agree that it is eurocentric. BUT I don't believe what I said was industrialized. And the western way is, "Go get a burger...and some fries." Westerners want everything NOW. As a hunter-gatherer wouldn't really have a choice to settle and grow nutritious plants, I didn't mean that we didn't want to wait. But we would lose out on prize game if we settled somewhere and didn't follow "dinner". Maybe as nomadic as I am, I sort of hinder on these characteristics myself.


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## chevaliernr

kevinshorses said:


> I hope you are not a history major because if so you are in danger of failing.
> 
> Agriculture lenghtened peoples lifespan and gave the population a steady food supply that required less effort which gave them more time to further civilize thier lives.


Kevin, I am not a history major by any means, nor am I in danger of failing any of my classes, including my agriculture course. From the classes I've taken thus far (which I concede haven't been that many), the initial advent of agriculture did not significantly increase average lifespan. I understand that lifespan eventually followed agriculture and sedentism, but I don't believe agriculture itself significantly increased lifespan. I am not an expert by any means, but I imagine that crop failures and disease would have put initial agricultural population's mortality close to those of foragers. Please let me know if you believe I'm grossly wrong with my thinking. 

As for agriculture requiring less effort, I feel I can safely say that you're wrong. As a generalization, hunter-gatherers actually expended much less labor and had far more leisure time than agriculturalists. 

And can you explain to me what you mean by "civilize their lives?" What exactly is civilization?

Moonstruck, I should not have lumped all of those terms together. I tend to use westernized and Eurocentric interchangeably, and I view "industrialized" partially as a product of those views.


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## bubba13

Here is a long but very interesting article about agriculture. You'll want to check it out, Kevin.

Jared Diamond - The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race


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## Moonstruck

Thats quite alright cheva - I clump a lot of words together sometimes like that too


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## Moonstruck

Good thing I'm thinking about studying anthropology..


----------



## chevaliernr

Well, I'm going to trust that nice UCLA doctor and my professors until compelling evidence proves otherwise. Thanks for the article, Bubba.

Moonstruck, I must have been writing this while you replied. I took a cultural anthropology course last semester and it was really intriguing. It definitely changes the way you view the world.


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## glitterhorse

I personally will never eat horse meat (it's like eating a friend of a friend to me lol), but I'm not against slaughter. My point of
view is that no animal should have to suffer for the joy of humans. 
Funny story. My German grandmother was talking to me one day when she randomly pulled out horse meat saying "You want a horseburger??". I don't even know where she got it from..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

DrumRunner said:


> Ok. That should work. I just don't think the rat matches your personality??..I don't know. Im used to your 'take that!' Posts..the cute rat just doesn't fit..lol sorry, I probably sound crazy..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? I am not cute and fuzzy? 


Giggle!


Does this one work better for you?


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## MacabreMikolaj

chevaliernr said:


> Well, I'm going to trust that nice UCLA doctor and my professors until compelling evidence proves otherwise. Thanks for the article, Bubba.
> 
> Moonstruck, I must have been writing this while you replied. I took a cultural anthropology course last semester and it was really intriguing. It definitely changes the way you view the world.


You are officially my new HERO. Srsly, it's amazing what society has convinced us is "healthy". The fall of almost any major ancient civilization has disturbing ties to agriculture and the sedentary lifestyle. It astounds and disturbs me that people actually believe we were designed to live on wheat, and that MEAT is the cause of all our problems.

Funny how no hunter/gatherer society seemed to have health problems until we forced agriculture on them. Agriculture is the only way to sustain a population in the billions, so we refuse to see it's also what is killing us.


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## fuadteagan

I hate slaughterhouses and such! Gosh, I wish that we could kill the people that run these places! I mean it is so sad. Some of the world's best horses are rescued from slaughter houses and I mean the best. If you ride eventing in USA you have probably heard of Allison Springer, the eventer. She rescued one of her better horses was rescued from slaughter. What do you know? Some day she could end up riding in the olympics on that horse? But that horse (A.K.A. burger) could be a real burger right now.


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## MacabreMikolaj

fuadteagan said:


> I hate slaughterhouses and such! Gosh, I wish that we could kill the people that run these places! I mean it is so sad. Some of the world's best horses are rescued from slaughter houses and I mean the best. If you ride eventing in USA you have probably heard of Allison Springer, the eventer. She rescued one of her better horses was rescued from slaughter. What do you know? Some day she could end up riding in the olympics on that horse? But that horse (A.K.A. burger) could be a real burger right now.


Do you honestly believe a horse gives a hoot if he's an "Olympic champion"? That's a pretty arrogant human assumption. Considering a horse's entire purpose in life is to be eaten by a predator, I'm pretty sure they're not nearly as emotional about the whole thing as we humans are.

I love how people act like there's a difference between riding a horse and breaking his leg and slaughter. Do you actually believe a horse understands the difference? Like somehow because we "love him" that makes his pain and subsequent death ANY different from a slaughterhouse? Or even better yet, let's keep him ALIVE for 6 months for our own selfish purposes, hung from a ceiling in a dark barn with no idea why he's being put through such torment. Oh yeah, let's kill those meanie slaughter house people, how DARE they make their death quick and efficient! The nerve!


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## DrumRunner

Alwaysbehind said:


> What? I am not cute and fuzzy?
> 
> 
> Giggle!
> 
> 
> Does this one work better for you?


Haha..hmm.. well, you may or may not be cute and fluffy but that rat just wasn't working. I really like the owl though, he makes me smile..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WildJessie

I personally wouldn't eat a horse, I have eaten lamb, squid, pigeon, cow, chicken, and pig. But to me a horse is more than just an animal, they are a friend/companion. I love dogs and cats, and some countries eat dogs & cats. Funny story, I was at my great grandfathers funeral reception and they were having it catered. I forgot who catered it, but anywho, I went to get some meat because it smelled so good. I got some, and asked the man who was serving the meat "What is this?" He said "Lamb." I started thinking I am eating Lamb chop!(A character I loved as a child) but the lamb was very delicious and wouldn't hesitate to eat it again, as long as the food is cooked right.lol. Now what if the same situation happened and it was horse, would I still eat it?Depends if it tastes good and if I don't have some sort of weird reaction to it. But its not something I am not about to go "OMG YES! HORSE MEAT YUM!" for. If I am at a dinner, or something and the main dish is horse, then fine, but I prefer not to be told its a horse.lol.

But when it comes to dogs and cats. Sorry, thats just gross, IMO, and I have seen how they are transported and handled. I know most countries like the US, UK, and most European countries don't eat dog and cat. I would rather keep my horses than send them off to the slaughterhouse. My cousin who lives in OK had a bull who her kids bonded too and they eventually killed him and ate him. I can see how people consider them livestock, but some people need to understand that to some they are not considered livestock.

We have "canines" those pointy teeth, and they are there for a reason. I respect those who are vegans/vegetarians, but I HATE it when they go and try to shove their beliefs down my throat(PETA for example.) I HATE PETA, Never will I support them. Their ultimate goal is to END ALL ANIMAL OWNERSHIP, because they think its cruel and is like slavery.

I RESPECT other countries cultures and wouldn't force them to change it because I don't like what they are eating, and I hope they do the same in return.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Good post WildJessie! I have zero issues with anyone who has a differing opinion from mine, it's just throwing around attitudes and words like "murderer" that make me roll my eyes.

I full understand and accept that many people could never eat horse, could never send their own horse to slaughter and will never support slaughter. I understand and accept that some people choose to be vegans, and regardless the reason why, it IS their choice.

If more people could post as eloquently and open as you could, I think we'd have a lot less arguments!


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## WildJessie

Thanks. I try.lol.


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## savannab

well hore slaughter is wrong period if u dont want it to go thru with its misery then shoot it but if theres nothin wrong then dont think about killin a horse PLAIN AND SIMPLE


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## myhorsesonador

lol you might want to re-read that statement.


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## arashowjumper

i keep myself neutral on this one, personally i havent send a horse to a slaugther house, and certainly i wouldnt ever eat horse meat. but that doesent mean other people and other curtures cant do it. 
what can i say, im not against slaugther but not also in favor i think that there are better ways of killing a horse i would do it if it was necesary like accidents or sevral health cases to end the suffering. 
even thoug i dont see myself breeding horses to be food (isnt that what cows are for?) i rather see people eating horse meat than ppl staring to dead. the same way i rather see my hrose dead than in a long agony.
i thingk this forum is full of adult people that can talk this matter with inteligence and respect.
in mexico we have a right ti know what we are served and i think this works to all everybody is free to choose what they eat. 
and this is just my personal opinion


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## Katesrider011

myhorsesonador said:


> lol you might want to re-read that statement.


Lol I saw that too.


----------



## SocietyJoe

I personally am against slaughtering horses or 'eating them' but alas horses ARE expensive, and some people just don't have other options. 

I hate seeing horses get hurt as much as the next person, and I think slaughting is horrible, but I do understand why some people use this option. You also can't stop slaughting as there would be alot of horses just wasting away in paddocks, and no one to care for them.

We saved Joe from a life like that, which is why I hate seeing horses get hurt.


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## Marlea Warlea

im a vego so i personally hate the entire idea of killings of all animals but i would never eat a horse because i would prob throw up at the idea of me eating a pretty pony


----------



## VelvetsAB

I still enjoy a nice big steak, and partially wiggly bacon!

I would eat it if I had to......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WildJessie

Humans are omnivores, and have canines. I know I do, so I use them to eat steak, pork, chicken, burgers, hot dogs, bacon, lamb, ribs, turkey, hot wings, sausage. Remember people used to eat horses way back then, so its not that weird.


----------



## cloud9

This thread is bonkers!


----------



## Marlea Warlea

no, i think its good


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## MacabreMikolaj

I guess it does make sense, most cultures do have their "taboos". It's not a whole lot different then the place of the cow in Hinduism. Cow slaughter is unheard of (and I believe illegal like horse slaughter?) in India. Taboo for eating the horse was born from Christianity I do believe, so it also has it's religious roots.

I think I just, in general, have an issue with people who think it's ok to eat one type of animal and not another. If you're a vegetarian, that's fine, that's your choice, but to scream about the poor horses while you eat a hamburger is just the height of hypocrisy in my mind. No one animal deserves life anymore then the next.


----------



## Juna

I am pro slaughter. I wish that there was a organization (unlike PETA) that documents and goes public about all the un-wanted, neglected, abused, starved horses that exist now as the result of banning equine slaughter in the US. An organization like that would be thinking and working for the _animal's_ humane treatment and needs. PETA and other anti-slaughter groups, are really only working to fulfill _human_ emotions. Yes, there can always be room for improvement on the slaughter process and environment, and working towards that goal is a whole lot better for the horses than outright banning slaughter. 

I hope that the US slaughter houses get re-opened soon. Better regulation and the best, humane slaughter process is all we need. The horses deserve that much. They don't deserve dying of starvation or being shipped to Mexico to heaven knows what conditions.


----------



## Juna

Buuuut, I don't think I could ever eat horse meat. All bets are off if I'm staving to death though. :lol: If it's the horse or me, the horse loses. 

Btw, the funniest bumper sticker I ever saw was this: 

PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals


----------



## DarkBucephalus

I can't really add much to the conversation other than what's already been said I'm sure. Whether Im pro-slaughter or anti-slaughter is very much up to debate. 
Would I ever send a horse to slaughter for any reason? Probably not. Do I see benefits in slaughter? Yes and no. 
Logically I do see the point in it, emotionally (yes I am a very emotional person) I do not. It would make sense to send a horse to slaughter rather than let it starve to death, wich is a very slow agonizing death, as opposed to the slaughter wich is alot faster, and has a lot less suffering, physically, involved. 
The horse is killed in a matter of minutes, or hours (I don't know how long it takes at the slaughter houses), as opposed to days, months, even years for a horse to starve to death. 

If there is no other option than to send the horse to slaughter or to let it starve, I would rather send it to slaughter where it does not have to suffer. In a perfect world we'd all be vegetarians, and aptly able to care for all of the horses and animals in the world with no concerns. Hell in an even more perfect world, living organisms would have no need to eat at all! Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world, and all too many horses end up suffering. Would I eat a horse myself? No, I couldn't bring myself to eat anything I see as a companion. That includes rabbits, iguanas, horses, dogs and cats. If I owned a cow, I likely would not be able to eat beef. Same goes for pigs. Just because I refuse to eat the specified animals, does not make them any less "special" than a horse. These are just my own emotional hang ups. But getting back on track and cutting to the chase, no I don't want there to be slaughter at all, but I do see the logical aspects of it. If there were any other solution to the growing amount of horses with the dwindling amount of homes for them, I would opt for that over slaughter, but as it stands, if you can't find a home for the horse and are unable to care for it properly and rescue orgnizations are full and can't take anymore, then yes, the most humane thing to do, in my logical opinion, is send the horse to slaughter where the horse won't suffer, and the meat would go to use.


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## Skittlenatt

It's not "eating horses is wrong", just how they're slaughtered and cared for in the time that they're at the slaughter yard.


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## myhorsesonador

Skittlenatt said:


> It's not "eating horses is wrong", just how they're slaughtered and cared for in the time that they're at the slaughter yard.


This thread is old, just want to make sure you knew that.


----------



## Mike_User

myhorsesonador, if a member wants to contribute something to a thread, they can, even if the thread hasn't received replies in a while.


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## myhorsesonador

Administrator said:


> myhorsesonador, if a member wants to contribute something to a thread, they can, even if the thread hasn't received replies in a while.


 
I know that. I was just making sure the member knew that it was old. we are all pretty tired of ths thread so they probably wount get any response.


----------



## NdAppy

myhorsesonador - they have to click a box when a thread gets past a certain date saying that they know a thread is old. You don't need to jump on every old post and remind people. :wink:


----------



## Alwaysbehind

NdAppy said:


> myhorsesonador - they have to click a box when a thread gets past a certain date saying that they know a thread is old. You don't need to jump on every old post and remind people. :wink:


I was wondering about that.

I found a not very old thread when doing a search on a topic and I went to reply to it and I got this pop up that seemed like it wanted my first born child in order to bump the thread back up.
Then there are people who bump old threads and say 'oh, I did not realize how old it was'.


----------



## NdAppy

AB I think a lot people click check boxes without reading sometimes :lol:


----------



## Speed Racer

NdAppy said:


> AB I think a lot people click check boxes without reading sometimes :lol:


Say it ain't so!!!! :shock:

You mean, like the FAQs and Rules of the BB? Nooo way!!! :wink:


----------



## Mike_User

myhorsesonador said:


> I know that. I was just making sure the member knew that it was old. we are all pretty tired of ths thread so they probably wount get any response.


Generally speaking, when it comes to active communities consisting of members from all walks of life from many countries around the world, each of whom have been a part of the community for varying lengths of time and have had different exposure to different threads, no one member or group of members is qualified to speak for everyone.



Alwaysbehind said:


> I was wondering about that.
> 
> I found a not very old thread when doing a search on a topic and I went to reply to it and I got this pop up that seemed like it wanted my first born child in order to bump the thread back up.
> Then there are people who bump old threads and say 'oh, I did not realize how old it was'.


I believe that only appears if a thread has not received a reply in 90 days. The last post this thread received before Skittlenatt's was on 5-30-11, so she would not have been required to check a checkbox to post to this thread. Also, we realized that asking members for their first born children was a bit over the top, so any child born thereafter will now suffice as well.

Anyhow, I hope this didn't scare you off from the thread Skittlenat. Nobody owns this discussion, so if you have anything else you'd like to add to it, feel free. Similarly, anyone who would like to reply to Skittlenat's post, any post before it, or make a point of your own, either because you haven't participated in a discussion like this before or would simply like to participate in a discussion like this again, is welcome to.


----------



## HorseFahj

I realize this thread is old, so I hope I'm not opening a can of worms.

Slaughtering horses for meat is not murder as a previous poster put. Our 11 month old dog was stolen from our back yard 2 years ago by a man and he killed her just for the heck of it. I won't go into detail as this is a kid friendly site, but THAT's murder, this is not murder.

Now I would never eat horse meat just because I don't think it would be that tasty, but I am nowhere near against anyone who does. 

My daughter, who is actually the horseback rider in the family, has worked very hard to make it known on the internet that she is pro-slaughter and that they should legalize horse slaughter in America again. Granted, she's only 13.

As long as the slaughtering is regulated and done humanely, which it cannot be done that way in Mexico, it's the best way to go. He**, just the transporting to Mexico/Canada is torture!

Just my 2 cents and I hope I don't bring any old news back up.


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## coffeegod

Speed Racer said:


> Say it ain't so!!!! :shock:
> 
> You mean, like the FAQs and Rules of the BB? Nooo way!!! :wink:


You mean there are rules?? :shock::shock:


----------



## Speed Racer

coffeegod said:


> You mean there are rules?? :shock::shock:


As far fetched as it sounds, yes! Amazing, I know! :wink:

HorseFahj, many people believe like your daughter does, myself included. The fact that she's only 13 y/o, I find extremely refreshing. Usually at that age they're all about emotion, and being overwrought at the thought of 'pwetty horsies' being cruelly killed so people can eat them.

From what I understand, horse meat is leaner than beef, so is actually better for you in the long run. I've always wanted to try it. I had donkey meat when I was in Morocco, so I don't think horse meat is probably much different.


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## heartprints62

HorseFahj said:


> I realize this thread is old, so I hope I'm not opening a can of worms.
> 
> Slaughtering horses for meat is not murder as a previous poster put. Our 11 month old dog was stolen from our back yard 2 years ago by a man and he killed her just for the heck of it. I won't go into detail as this is a kid friendly site, but THAT's murder, this is not murder.
> 
> Now I would never eat horse meat just because I don't think it would be that tasty, but I am nowhere near against anyone who does.
> 
> My daughter, who is actually the horseback rider in the family, has worked very hard to make it known on the internet that she is pro-slaughter and that they should legalize horse slaughter in America again. Granted, she's only 13.
> 
> *As long as the slaughtering is regulated and done humanely, which it cannot be done that way in Mexico, it's the best way to go. He**, just the transporting to Mexico/Canada is torture!*
> 
> Just my 2 cents and I hope I don't bring any old news back up.


 
I have been doing research and making speaches about this subject since high school... many many moons ago.... 
I agree completely with that statement.


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## DieselPony

I avoided posting in this thread when it first came around, and I know it is old and way off the original topic, but something has been bugging and I would just like to say that I am getting tired of Canada being lumped in with Mexico all the time on the slaughter thing. Not pointing my fingers at any one person really, its just something I've seen a lot.

No, the travel for the horse really isn't any better, but I'm pretty dang sure we have better slaughter standards than Mexico. I don't know the difference between what US's standards and Canada's standards were, but it couldn't be that different. 

I live on the main route from the USA/Canada border to the slaughter house. Practically lived in the border town. Never seen a double decker of horses and very rarely do they like to delay animals at the crossing. 

I have been to the slaughter facility nearest me. It is clean, calm, quiet. Food/water in the many large pens, horse are quiet, no freaking out any more then when any horse at any boarding barn/farm is taking away from the herd.

Plus, some of the horses are kept on pasture waiting for their days to end. Yeah, real hard life for the meat horse :roll: . Just has spoiled as meat cows.


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## faye

Dieselpony, with canada I do think people are concidering the very long journey in horrific conditions rather than the method of slaughter.

i know I'd rather have a horse slaughtered in canada as opposed to mexico.


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## MacabreMikolaj

DieselPony does have an excellent point though - double deckers are illegal and have been for awhile. Every so often you hear a horror story about some jerk who left a load of horses baking in the 40 degree heat, but considering someone does that to their own CHILD every second day around here I really think it's less a case of "industry abuses" and more a case of "this person is dumber then a rock, and half as compassionate".

No, a journey that long isn't pleasant, I don't think for ANY horse really. They weren't made to travel for such long distances. But I really don't think the journey is quite as horrendous (to Canada anyway) as they make it out to be. Not a whole heckuva lot different then shipping rodeo stock halfway across the country in a big open stock trailer, or heck, even polo players or anyone who has a LOT of horses to ship at once.


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## faye

The whole argument in europe is not about eating them it is about travelling them accross europe.
If horses went on the hook not the hoof very few people over here would have issues with it.
Now from UK to italy can take the average slaughter horse 4days. They stop several times on route, not for horse comfort but to cram more horses on. They dont get unloaded in that time (even though legaly they should unload every 8hrs. Horses dont get any hay in that time and they very rarely get water and certainly nowhere near what they should. they are not padded, they are not separated and they are certainly not given anywhere near enough space. I've never heard of a double decker wagon

Europe has strict animal welfare laws(from what i've learnt far stricter then the US) however enforcing them is nigh on impossible in the case of transporting horses. It is not unknown for horses to die on route to slaughter, either through trampleing, dehydration, broken leg from a kick (generaly resulting in either massive bleeding or a fall and trampling). You get pregnant mares, stallions, foals, youngstock, mares in season, mares, everything all crammed in together.

Transport of horses to slaughter is not pleasent. Which is why when I do eat horsemeat i eat it from a local source whith a horse who was bred and slaughtered localy.


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## Wheatermay

Ok, I know none of you know me, but Im the one of those..."hey a stray dog! I'm gonna pick it up! Find its home!" or "O turtle in the middle of the road! I'll take him to the woods!", yea thats the kind of animal lover I am....Yet, I am pro slaughter. My hubby's family raises cattle to butcher (even names them-which I hate b/c I dont want to know WHO im eating!). But yet, If a field full of horses are found and all of them put down bc they r emaciated, and lame the horse is then sent to a landfill where the meat is eaten by birds and rots and decays. I grew up poor and had lots of occasions where there was no meat in the house! I love all animals, but I would rather that horse be eaten by some little kid's family who is hungry, than a crow.... The crow can find something else. I would like it done with regulations as someone else has stated previously here in the US. BC like it or not, even in the US here where its illegal... its still happening. I live in WV, and if I tried to sell my gelding right now (he's 3 and not broken)... he'd go up to a little place called SugarCreek here, where he's be bought and trailered up to Canada to be slaughtered legally there! (Which isnt going to happen b/c he's getting broken this fall for that sole reason that a broken horse usually can get a home). But these horses that are 9-12 yrs old havent been rode for a years and is no longer broken... people trying to sell them, thats where they go... So why not regulate it here? Feed some people here!

I cant lie tho...for some reason I have an easier time accepting people eat horses than I can people eating cats and dogs... Why that is, I have no clue...


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## bubba13

The only thing I'll say to that, without giving any value judgement to "pro" or "anti" slaughter, is that the ponies that get et sure aren't going to feed starving children. They're being sold by the pound for high prices on a gourmet market.


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## ellabella97

Hi, I am from England where it is illegal- I am with most English people in saying that eating and selling horse meat is disgusting and shouldn't be allowed- you wouldn't eat other pets like your dog or cat or hamster- would you?! There are not bred as food they are bred as a hobby, as a mode of transport, for love. xxx


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## Speed Racer

If you're really from England you should know that it's NOT illegal to consume horse meat in your country. Many of them are slaughtered IN ENGLAND to be sold to other European markets who don't have the mindset that a livestock animal is a pet, and comparable to a hamster.


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## ShutUpJoe

Alls I can say is I'm against slaughter. I have my reasons. I tried to stay off this thread... but I just couldn't. For all of the people that eat American horses in foreign countries do not realize the drugs that MOST horses have been given that were never intended to put in animals raised for human consumption. Some of the horses that ship to slaughter are broken down race horses or show horses that have at one point been given bute. Bute is not intended for human consumption and causes cancer. 

"While there is list of medications that require a withholding period of six months, others such as the common anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone, or bute, cannot be given to horses at all if they are to enter the human food chain."

New requirements set to bite American horse slaughter trade | Horsetalk - International horse news

I'm all for the big time breeders not getting breeding incentives for producing 100 foals and only keeping 5, and then shipping out the other 95. How is that okay? 

Did you know that many of the horses shipped are usable, sound, ridable, young and fat? Did you know that horses sitting at holding pens aren't given the proper care they need while they wait for their trip to the slaughter house?

I'm sure you guys have watched the videos that show how a horse is actually slaughtered? Bolted in the head several times and still strung up conscious by one leg. If they are pregnant their foals are cut from their bellies. In Mexico they use a knife to paralyze the horse and believe the heart should still be beating when the horse is bled out. 

Then there are the economic problems faced with slaughter houses. Here is a letter from the former Mayor of Kaufman, TX: 

Former Mayor: Horse Slaughterhouses a Drain on Taypayers — Never Mind the Ditches of Blood | Pith in the Wind

I'll just paste some really important parts:

o Dallas Crown had a very long history of violations to their industrial waste permit, ‘loading' the capacity of the wastewater treatment plant. o Dallas Crown denied the City access to their property for wastewater testing beginning October 1, 2004 until July 6, 2005, despite requirement by city ordinance, city permit agreement, and court order.
o City staff reported that a $6 million upgrade to our wastewater treatment plant would be required even though the plant was planned and financed to last through 2015. 
o Odor problems resulting from the outside storage of offal and hides over several days persisted not only in traditionally African-American neighborhood known as "Boggy Bottom", but at the nearby Presbyterian Hospital, the daycare center, and surrounding areas.
o Transport of offal and fresh hides on City and state thoroughfares is conducted in leaking containers without covers.
o City documents reveal an extended history of efforts to have Dallas Crown address various environmental issues. Reports include descriptive language including such as "blood flowing east and west in the ditches from your plant," "It has been over 45 days [it had been 59 days] and no apparent cleanup has occurred," "Your system has not improved and subsequently it has gotten a lot worse," "Words cannot express the seriousness" of recent violations and the "adverse effects on the wastewater treatment plant," and "Please be sure trailers are secured before leaving your premises to prevent spills," noting also "bones and blood laying in front of the facility," problems with bones and parts in neighboring yards and the attraction of "dogs and other animals."
o In response to 29 citations for wastewater violations, each accompanied by a potential fine of $2,000, Dallas Crown requested 29 separate jury trials, potentially causing yet another economic strain to the City's budget. We could, of course, not afford to litigate in order to extract the fines.
o Dallas Crown took 11 months to submit a mandatory "sludge control plan" to assist efficient operation of the wastewater treatment plant though City staff requested it orally and in writing many times.
o The City Manager advised me that the City would have to spend $70,000 in legal fees because of Dallas Crown problems, which was the entire legal budget for the fiscal year.
o During this period, Dallas Crown paid property taxes that were less than half of what the City spent on legal fees directly related to Dallas Crown violations.
o Generally, Dallas Crown has the economic ability to prevail, to exceed the constraints of the City's budget.




Who wants that in our town? I sure in the hell don't. And if it happened I'd move so fast it'd make your head spin. 





As far as horses on the trailer go. The double deckers were designed for cattle. Not horses. Horses get their legs stuck and break them, skin them. The talls one knock their heads against the top because cows...well they just aren't that tall! They are crowded, they trip, they fall and get trampled on. 





Horses are slaughtered with communicable diseases such as strangles (which is very common in slaughter horses). Honestly... I would never eat horse meat. I'd rather become a vegetarian first. But to think that people are actually eating horses that are filled with bute and have strangles. Makes me sick to my stomach! 



I know that some people don't agree with me. And that's fine. But A LOT of people do, and I'm glad they do. I won't chime in anymore on this because I know this forum is pro-slaughter. I'm just voicing my opinion on the matter. I tried to open up my mind and see it the other way and I couldn't wrap around it, so I'm sticking to my guns. Call me a bleeding heart, I don't care. Maybe I am one and I'm okay with that. 





Did you also know that it's supposed to be illegal for BLM Mustangs to go to slaughter but since there is no brand inspection in Mexico or Canada they do anyway? Once they are on Canadian land they are Canadian horses. The slaughter house that was moved from TX to Canada is under review right now for their actions. 



ksl.com - BLM horses seized in suspected slaughter ring


Update: Federal Probe Raises Questions About 47 Seized BLM Horses Going Out of Holding Pens to Alleged Slaughter Ring « Straight from the Horse's Heart






Watch J.D. Alexander eat his words! 

I could go on with that. My point is that there are a lot of illegal actions involved with horse slaughter. From forging health certificates, owner information, theft of horses and inhumane actions from the auction house to the very end. I'll never support horse slaughter and I'll fight against it coming back to America as well. I'm not on the band wagon here and you can hate me all you want for it.


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## Wheatermay

There is...and your right....my thinking was that if someone is just going to buy them put them in their feild, run out of money, then stop feeding them....it might be better in the long run that they r sold to slaughter. I would not eat horse meat, but then I should have thought also, that if the slaughter of horses is made legal, then they will be super overbred by people trying to make money on meat, so its not going to help is it. So ShutupJoe, dont shut up... u have changed my mind about it! And I didnt read all of those links. I do plan on it later. I would like more information, and also if I am steaming mad, how I can help...


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## Wheatermay

Plus, if they slaughter these little farm horses, what has that horse eaten, taken, medicines? The only way it would be legal is thru Heath Administraton, and then its become a big time business..... No, I want to help the horses who r being neglected before it happens, not aid in a campaign to make horse meat available on market shelves...


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## ShutUpJoe

The point pro-slaughter people are trying to make is that sending them to slaughter is a humane end to their "suffering" and a way to get rid of our over abundant amount of horses. 

I cried when I watched these videos:

Toward the end of this one there is a very nice Welsh Pony and a BEAUTIFUL pregnant mare. 






This is the Canadian Horse Defense Coalitions website. If you can stomach it check out their videos. It shows how it is all done. The horses are herded into a little box, where they can move their heads around. The person takes a shot and sometimes it doesn't hit the horse where it is supposed to (I'm saying sometimes lightly because they did research and said half the horses were still alive when they were lifted out of the box) and they have to take more than one shot. I couldn't watch the videos all the way through. I couldn't get past the pinto that they shot and he flipped over and wash thrashing around before they took another shot. It's not a humane end. I don't care what anyone says. There is help out there. If you aren't lazy all you have to do is look for it! 

CHDC Chambers of Carnage

Bouvry is the largest exporter of American horses. They used a hidden camera to show what happens in the kill box.

If you have a facebook add Rhapsody Rose. It's the story of how someone's 20 year old Arabian mare was stolen from her and sent to slaughter. Sad stuff.


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## Appyfreak

I have no problem with the act of eating horse meat. However, I would never eat any store meat.
1: unless rules were made for humane slaughter.
2: as has been already said, you don't know what are are gtting in your meat. Bute, joint injections, steriods, wormers, ect.

I would have no problem raising a horse to eat. I raise cows, they are here for meat, they have a great life, and then are food. I would not eat one of my good riding horses, but if it was something I knew I was rasing for the freezer it would be ok. 
I also would have no problem butchering out the horse myself. 
I have done more rabbits, and chickens/turkeys than I can count, many deer, elk, veal calves, ect.


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## Wheatermay

If I didnt like beef so much, I wouldnt eat it, lol... I have watched some on there before about chicken/cow/ etc, and I was bawling...of course I cant make it through an ASPCA commercial either.... If they dont treat these kinds of animals with respect, they wont a horse either... I dont know if I wanna see that.... I just kept picturing my horse in the last video.... I dont want to eat horse meat tho... I cant. I have officially been converted...thanks to ShutupJoe, lol...


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## faye

ellabella97 said:


> Hi, I am from England where it is illegal- I am with most English people in saying that eating and selling horse meat is disgusting and shouldn't be allowed- you wouldn't eat other pets like your dog or cat or hamster- would you?! There are not bred as food they are bred as a hobby, as a mode of transport, for love. xxx


ERm it is deffinatly perfectly legal to eat horse meat in the UK. Get your facts right!!!!!!!

I'm from the UK too. Horses are deffinatly still bred for meat here. YOu just need to go along to Beeston horse market each wednesday (except the 1st of the month) and see the meat man buying all the unhandled and ill bred scrub ponies for less then the cost of thier passport to realise that the horse meat trade is still going strong.

Also there are many dedicated equine abattiors. Potters in cheshire being a very well known one.


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## faye

ShutupJoe so you prefer horses being shipped to Mexico and slaughtered in such a horriic way? or for horses to starve to death in a field because their owner has gone broke and cant sell them? or like in Ireland at the moment, tied to a tree and left to starve because people can no longer afford them? lovely real horse lover you are! 

Untill we achieve a state where people have oodles of money, time and land and breeders stop overbreeding then excess numbers of horses will always be an issue. Horse slaughter is the only relativly humane way of dealing with it,

I'd much rather any of my horses were shot/went to an abattoir over an uncertain future of pain and fear.
I've got 2 very old horses. one is 29 the other is 30, if I went bust tommorow I'd have both horses shot and sent to the hunt (because I know they have had far to many drugs in them for human consumption).

In the UK they use a free bullet not a captive bolt so it is much more humane but still I do think the US should allow horse slaughter in the country again because at least then you will have some control over animal welfare. Also if you have a passport system that works correctly horses who have had drugs don't get into the human food chain. All my horses have a signature in the box in thier passports saying that they are not suitable for human consumption.


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## Wheatermay

Yea, but they are not going to allow people to eat a owners horse who has been vaccinated and wormed and some ointment seven say do not use on horse meant for consumption. And they have programs starting that will help horse owners either place their horses or euthanize them. All legalizing it will do is cause more breeding. Slaughter hasnt really helped out cows, has it? You cant tell me you have never seen a skinny, ill-kept cow? Chickens? Even in the US, like I was saying I watched a video of an over-turned chicken truck, and they were just throwing these poor chickens through a hole in the truck to get them back in.... the regulations doesnt really protect the animals we slaughter now...


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## Alwaysbehind

ellabella97 said:


> you wouldn't eat other pets like your dog or cat or hamster- would you?!


Me specifically, no. I would not. But I would never think to make it so that others, who find eating such things as the norm, can not do that.

*AB wonders if there is any meat on a hamster anyway.....



I personally think the meat market would be a wonderful outlet for the huge overpopulation problem we have with cats and dogs in the US. Far better than spending a small fortune euthanizing them and disposing of the bodies. That is such a horrible waste of perfectly good meat. And we (general we) have proven that we are unable to not over produce our pet animals so it is silly to not have a useful outlet for them.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I totally agree AB. Don't know about the hamster though...kabob? Just kidding! 

I would love to see the slaughter houses opened back up here in the states. It would be a solution to many problems in our horse market. It could be regulated & done humanely if kept in house, it would drastically reduce the amount of unfit animals running through auctions every day of the week here, it could create jobs and would eventually aid the horse market that is overflooded with junk horses level back out. I've seen the hidden videos in the plants out of the country and though how it is handled is less than humane and frankly quite sick, it is a necessary evil. 

I also have no problem with the consumption aspect. While I love my horses and couldn't eat them, they are in all reality livestock like any other. If they had been raised for meat and not for our own pleasure I'd be totally fine with it, I'd probably try it myself. I've heard its quite good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack

Alwaysbehind said:


> Me specifically, no. I would not. But I would never think to make it so that others, who find eating such things as the norm, can not do that.
> 
> **AB wonders if there is any meat on a hamster anyway.....*
> 
> 
> 
> I personally think the meat market would be a wonderful outlet for the huge overpopulation problem we have with cats and dogs in the US. Far better than spending a small fortune euthanizing them and disposing of the bodies. That is such a horrible waste of perfectly good meat. And we (general we) have proven that we are unable to not over produce our pet animals so it is silly to not have a useful outlet for them.


cavies/guinea pigs are actually raised specifically for consumption in some South American areas - true they are bigger than hamsters, but still points out it is always an option.

It's all about perspective. If you see something as your pet, you are not going to be inclined to eat it. If you see something as a livestock animal or an animal raised specifically for consumption, you aren't going to have that emotional qualm. 
I can't say I would never eat horse - frankly I've never been presented with having to make the choice. I will say I don't hold any ill will towards those who do consume the meat of horses - or any other animal. My personal preference does not dictate the choices of others.


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## Speed Racer

EXACTLY, Mac! :thumbsup:

Just because _I_ don't like something doesn't give me the right to tell others they can't do it as long as it's perfectly legal. Unfortunately, too many 'rainbow sprinkles/butterfly farts' people think if_ they_ don't like, then nobody else has any rights to do as they please, legal or not.

As far as eating horse meat? Yep, I'd try it. I'd also like to try guinea pig. I've already eaten camel, pigeon, and donkey while I was over in Morocco.

Another thing; if you've ever eaten any imported salami or pepperoni, you've eaten horse meat.


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## Alwaysbehind

Another :thumbsup: for Mac!


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## faye

Wheatermay said:


> Slaughter hasnt really helped out cows, has it? You cant tell me you have never seen a skinny, ill-kept cow?


Actualy I've never seen a skinny cow. I used to work in an abattoir, they slaughtered cows and sheep there. Skinny cows/sheep are not worth much, far better to have fat healthy cows. Infact in the entire time I worked there I never ever saw any animal abuse happen at all and believe me I am one person who would speak out if I saw it happen.


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## Appyfreak

An old friend said back when he was in the army (Think MANY years ago) they use to get in crates of USDA inspected horse meat, to feed the troops.


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## DrumRunner

But SR, Mac, and AB, you don't mean that you could actually eat your wittle horseies? They are pets, not food. The aren't livestock either and they are not like other animals and they shouldn't be treated like them. They are here to be people's best friends and will love you forever and ever.


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## Alwaysbehind

Horses are livestock and it is in their and our best interest that they stay classified as livestock.


Would I eat my horses? No. Would I eat horse meat? For sure.


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## .Delete.

DrumRunner said:


> But SR, Mac, and AB, you don't mean that you could actually eat your wittle horseies? They are pets, not food. The aren't livestock either and they are not like other animals and they shouldn't be treated like them. They are here to be people's best friends and will love you forever and ever.


I would try horse meat and with a smile on my face. Horses are livestock, by definition. Before we begun riding horses 5-6,000 years ago we used them for MEAT and MILK. They might be a pet _to you_, but to another person they are what keeps them from going to the light. Many people enjoy horse meat, there is nothing wrong with that. To each is own, its not right to condone someone just because they eat something you wouldn't. Try being a little open minded, its amazing what you realize/learn.


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## Speed Racer

I'm not going eat my own horses Drum, but I have no such qualms about anyone elses! I love_ my _horses. Anybody elses? not so much. :wink:

Yes, we can't _possibly_ eat horsies, 'cause they are _totally _speshul, and they will love us forever and ever! Nothing _at all_ like those ugly ole cows, pigs, goats, sheep and chickens! 

I will say to all the people appalled at eating horses, do you take the Hindus into consideration when you're chowing down on a burger? To them, cattle are sacred. HOW DARE you eat the meat of such a sacred animal! :shock:


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## faye

Would I eat my horses? No because I know what crap has gone into them in the form of drugs.

Would I eat horses, yes i would and I have regularly.

Would I eat my horses if I was starving and there was no other food, probably.

Are horses livestock? According to DEFRA (the animal part of the UK gov) they are and Equestrian properties fall under agricultural rates, horses fall under the category of livestock when it comes to tax, disease prevention and control.


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## DrumRunner

lol Whoops. My post was said in total mock sarcasm.. Sorry should have clarified that.. I sai exactly how I felt in Delete's "would you eat a horse?" thread. 

Heck yes, I would try horse. They are livestock and should be considered that. I'm also pro slaughter and think the houses should be opened back up.


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## Speed Racer

Oh yes Drum, we got it. Now, are you going to send me your horse so I can try loin of Flicka? :wink:


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## Alwaysbehind

Oh cool, we are meeting at SR's house.


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## Speed Racer

Yep! Horse on the barbie at my place! :lol:


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## DrumRunner

:wink: I think Hickory would be the best. He is nice and plump.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Speed Racer said:


> Oh yes Drum, we got it. Now, are you going to send me your horse so I can try loin of Flicka? :wink:


 
I'd offer up Woodstock for ya today SR! Just got in from pedicures and he was a total asshat for the farrier today. I'm contemplating where I can string him up to field dress :evil:


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## Alwaysbehind

Cool, the bbq has grown in size now.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

He should make a feast AB. I even have a smoker :lol:


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## Speed Racer

Mmmmm....smoked horse.....


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## Alwaysbehind

We can probably makes some really yummy jerky too, hu?


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## DrumRunner

Please! Please! Just let me ride him and love on him first! I love Woodstock.

lol You can cook Hickory up first.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Does make good jerky, only tried it with venison so far though...got a killer teriyaki recipe! 

Drum, drive on up here and get his butt.  He made me mad enough today I'd give him to you.


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## DrumRunner

* runs away from work to load up trailer and head to Indiana.

See ya soon! 

I'm so broke now that I couldn't afford to feed another horse. Mine already eat better than I do. I would definitely take Woodstock though, he's just so cute!


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## Alwaysbehind

Woodstock Jerky. It is kind of a catchy name. We could market that.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Lol AB! Tie dye packaging? 

I'll trade for your mare Drum, even out the feed bill


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## DrumRunner

LOL Literally just choked drinking and laughing at the same time...Not a good idea..

Hmm, how about a temporary lease?? We'll take turns 

This isn't a great picture ( Just took it with my phone at my desk, from a picture lol) I think shoulder of Hickory's thick little self would work..


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Aww, poor Hickory!  We could do a joint custody thing. She's Reminic bred right? Maybe a breeding lease, I'll keep the baby and you can just have ol' knothead for keeps lol! 

Ladies, I think we're on the wrong track though. Maybe we should pick one who's a pasture puff that doesn't get worked...might not be as tough?


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## DrumRunner

Yep. Reminic is her grandsire.. Sounds good to me. I'm really thinking about breeding her in the next year or so. But, I'm anal so I'm planning like two years in advance and I have to have everything absolutely right and in order. She's got a really nice head about her and very sweet personality.. lol So, you could probably get a nice foal out of her.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I am having Hondo collected (he's Woodstock's sire) for myself, not breeding anymore outside mares - he will be 30 this year. He's from the last living son of Poco Dell and a producing mare off the King Ranch. It would be a good working cross for sure!  

Sorry for the derailement all, back to your regularly scheduled programming


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## DrumRunner

Woo.. I bet it would.. lol yeah, sorry guys. Got distracted.


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## Alwaysbehind

I suppose you are right about the meat being too tough. Though it would not make a difference for the jerky.

Does anyone have any good marinate to help with the tough meat issue?


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## bubba13

Who likes The Office?

"Oh yeah. you've got a knot in your crest. This remedy has been passed down in my family for generations. and it always works. My grandfather was told that Diamond Dancer would never race again. they were wrong. He came in 9th in the Apple Creek Derby and his jerky came in 3rd the following year. A majestic beast. So fast. So tender."

"I invented a device called 'Burger on the Go'. It allows you to obtain 6 regular size hamburgers, or 12 sliders, from a horse without killing the animal. George Foreman is still considering it. Sharper Image is still considering it. Sky Mall's considering it. Hammacher Schlemer is still considering it. Sears said, 'No'."


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## Appyfreak

Alwaysbehind said:


> Woodstock Jerky. It is kind of a catchy name. We could market that.


 
What about Whinny Strips, or Nag nuggets?

It can come in many flavors! Hot to trot (spicey) Ole Nelly (origional) Caballo (fiesta lime) Ninja nuggets (terriaky) and Appy spots (peppered)


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## LovesMyDunnBoy

Personally, I am against horse slaughter. Not because the thought of eating horse meat, butit's what some slaughter houses put the animals thru to begin with. Beating, not being properly killed. I saw a video of a mexixan slaughter horse, this guy used a dagger to sever the spinal cord. Only he missed about three times...and they get starved and beaten. It's ridiculous. And I don't believe in sending a horse off to the SH just because they are crippled and can't ride or event. As long as they can live a pain free life, I think they should KEEP their life. And yes, I would euth my horse if the situation calls for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QH Gunner

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> Personally, I am against horse slaughter. Not because the thought of eating horse meat, butit's what some slaughter houses put the animals thru to begin with. Beating, not being properly killed. I saw a video of a mexixan slaughter horse, this guy used a dagger to sever the spinal cord. Only he missed about three times...and they get starved and beaten. It's ridiculous. And I don't believe in sending a horse off to the SH just because they are crippled and can't ride or event. As long as they can live a pain free life, I think they should KEEP their life. And yes, I would euth my horse if the situation calls for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you missed a point in this. That DOESN'T happen everywhere. & while yes, that may happen in some places, it happens to cows, pigs, chickens etc. as well... So, to be fair, are you against those too? Because in all the same, there are bad places for those too. It's just we don't think of that. What about hunting deer? They suffer too, yet we still do it. There are good places people/ & bad. I know a guy who trucks hay down from Canada to my job (I work for a hay broker, kinda) EVERYTIME he's down he asks if we have any horses to go, I don't... But if I did I would send them to him bc he has does go to a great slaughter house where where the animals are killed in a decent way & are kept properly (& they look happy) till they do. 
I think people think of it as more of a horrible thing bc we become attached to such animal- well not everyone does. Just like people who raise cows for slaughter. My dad use to have his own butcher shop, & I do not feel bad for a single animal that was raised by him. Well fed & taken care of. My boyfriend raises steer in the same manner. 
Just because a person feels a certain way, does not make it wrong for everyone. Therefore, if you feel so bad for the "poor horsies" who go thru, well you better become a vegetarian bc the same things happen to all animals at the wrong places. You should be against those particular places, not the practice itself. I wouldn't eat my guys, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't eat horse meat. & if I, or my son, was starving- well then... Survival of the fittest. 
(Tho, I know people who have had it & they said is not all that good, so maybe it would need to be prepared a special way, same with bear or rabbit- I don't think it's good unless cooked right, & seasoned well.. Just sayin  ) 

On a side note, the horse jerky names - I love them!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dlilly

I think it is interesting to see horse peeps on here who are okay with horses being food. I am okay with it too. I often get people yelling at me for that.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy

I am against the abuse part, not the slaughter. So no I'm not completely against any of them. I just believe any animal being killed, should live the life until that day lol. I personally, couldn't eat it. But that's just my own squeemishness. Ha. But as long as they are treated well, I don't mind. And I don't hunt (I love to shoot but not animals) just for the reason of I can't kill an innocent animal. Unless of course it's suffering. We recently found a doe paralyzed on the side of the road. We stopped and called to have her put down by animal control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dlilly

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> I am against the abuse part, not the slaughter. So no I'm not completely against any of them. I just believe any animal being killed, should live the life until that day lol. I personally, couldn't eat it. But that's just my own squeemishness. Ha. But as long as they are treated well, I don't mind. And I don't hunt (I love to shoot but not animals) just for the reason of I can't kill an innocent animal. Unless of course it's suffering. We recently found a doe paralyzed on the side of the road. We stopped and called to have her put down by animal control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I wouldn't eat a horse because... I would feel like a traitor. As long as the horse is raised humanely, I'm fine with it being eaten.


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## QH Gunner

Well see, that was much better stated, I dont think any animal should die inhumanely (of course, truth be told- it will always happen) As for hunting, I like dear meat, & it keeps too many of them out of my corn/hay fields/ vegetable garden. & I wouldn't eat MY horses, but as for trying it, well I guess I would. I'd just brush me teeth before I went to the barn so they never knew 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye

and let me guess animal control took at least 10mins to get to you. That is 10 mins an animal had to needlessly suffer.

Personaly I would have either snapped her neck or cut her jugular (depending on the size of said doe, since i'm only tiny if it had been of any size at all I wouldnt have managed to snap its neck.). Snapped neck would have been instant, cut jugular is less then 2 mins to bleed out.


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## myhorsesonador

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it came down to it, after I eat what little meat is on my brother my horse would come next. Dogs are good for hunting so I'll let them stick around as long as there usefull!


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## FIREBLADE

I have never belonged to a Horse Forum where the issue of slaughter didn't come up but I have to say for the most part people here at least can respect opinions.
Germany does Slaughter Horses and they are on the menu of many people I prefer pig or cow but that is my preference.
Germany went thru a huge overhaul as far as treating animals period that are headed to slaughter.
But like someone here said if you make your living with Horses sometimes people just don't have the time or want to invest in a horse that may or may not recover after a lot of money and time.
But I know since slaughter has been stopped her it has gotten much worse for the Horses they are still going to Slaughter now they just go to Mexico and canada further to travel and less control of how they die did we really do a great thing by stopping it????


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## Alwaysbehind

Appyfreak said:


> What about Whinny Strips, or Nag nuggets?
> 
> It can come in many flavors! Hot to trot (spicey) Ole Nelly (origional) Caballo (fiesta lime) Ninja nuggets (terriaky) and Appy spots (peppered)


I think we are on to something.



Dlilly said:


> I think it is interesting to see horse peeps on here who are okay with horses being food. I am okay with it too. I often get people yelling at me for that.


We tend to be a realistic crowd here.


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## wyominggrandma

The videos show up alot to get the anti slaughter folks going. These same bleeding hearts don't see what is happening in our own country. I hunt "poor inocent animals" every fall.... Have shot and filled my freezer with buffalo, moose, deer and elk..... Doesn't bother me to eat any of them.. They are not poor inocent animals, they are part of herds that are all over the mountains and if they are not thinned out, the winter will kill them, the wolves will kill them, the bears will kill them. Thinning out the wild populations help the others live. 
I can understand how some folks are saying" let the horses live out their lives".. Unfortunately these days, with hay at 250 a ton(last year it sold for $75-80) there will be more horses starving to death in their own pastures or taken and turned out on National forests to slowly starve to death or get eaten by wolves, bears, etc. Opening up slaughter houses again would at least put these animals to death in a timely manner, not weeks and weeks of starving and/or being eaten alive by the predators. Yes, some places, outside of the US are not regulated and therefore don't seem to care how they are killing the horses, BUT if there were opened up again here in the US, then they would be regulated and therefore deaths would be faster and more humane.
People who are losing their homes, cars, jobs that had horses are left with no choice but to let a horse starve to death or turn it loose, or sell it for slaughter to get something back. People come first and animals after that. You have to be able to keep your family safe and sound and fed. I would rather see horses sent to a humane slaughter in US, then to Mexico or Canada.
Cows are killed the same way, sometimes one shot works sometimes it doesn't. Nobody is perfect when it comes to killing a moving animal. But the bleeding hearts, PETA, etc have videos made that only show the worst offenders and they are not even in the US. 
I love the jerky names. Have a great recipe for terriyaki jerky.. lol


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## goneriding

Not to change the subject but I dream to haul our horses to Wyoming to ride! I would love to see Jackson Hole.


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## wyominggrandma

I live about 50 miles from Jackson Hole, and yellowstone park. Absolutely beautiful country. Let me know if you ever get this way.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy

People always say the "wild horse" population needs to be thinned, why not just catch, spay and geld then release..that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spookychick13

Spaying is not really an option for female horses.


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## bubba13

If you fund it, go for it.


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## wyominggrandma

Spaying IS an option for mares. I have had all my mares spayed, it is done alot. It is done with mild sedation, standing in stocks.......... No outside incisions to heal............


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## spookychick13

wyominggrandma said:


> Spaying IS an option for mares. I have had all my mares spayed, it is done alot. It is done with mild sedation, standing in stocks.......... No outside incisions to heal............


Ok, I should have said a 'feasible' option. What was the cost?
Pretty up there, I would guess.

Was it Laparoscopic?


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## wyominggrandma

No, they go in through the vagina/rectum...... It costs about $700.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I hate slaughter. I hate the necessity of it. I also hate waste and the way we're doing now, we're needlessly wasting a lot of good, usable meat. We have starving folks in this country, how is shipping horses out of the country to slaughter helping them? 

And to stir the pot with one more thought......Does anyone really believe that somewhere in this country an enterprising entrepeneur has not already started raising a herd by strict EU standards to meet all the most stringent requirements, so they can get top $$$ from the gourmet 'organic' horse meat market? 

We need to bring slaughter back to this country and ease our repugnance and restrictions on eating horse meat. I understand having laws and tabboos in place if there are no starving people but when I live in a state that has to send back packs full of food home with some kids so they can eat over the weekend, it makes me livid to see any source of nutrition that could be given to the hungry go to waste.

***Re: Spaying Mares*** Since I can get a colt gelded in my back yard for $45, $700 for a 'tubal ligation' on a mare makes no kinda sense to me. It would make more sense if the various registries would make provision for the 'paper spay' or yeld option so that a mare could be registered as non-breedable stock and no foals out of that mare would be eligible for registration.


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## NdAppy

Regarding your last paragraph Dreamcatcher - Your idea is good in a sense, but, and this is a _big_ but, it wont work. As long as there are reproductive organs people are going to breed them regardless of whether or not they have papers. Spaying is a good option in another sense as it only takes one colt/stallion to impregnate a lot of mares...


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## kevinshorses

wyominggrandma said:


> No, they go in through the vagina/rectum...... It costs about $700.


It's funny that they do heifers the same way and it costs $6 per head.


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> It's funny that they do heifers the same way and it costs $6 per head.


Really? I didn't think they spayed heifers, Kevin. I thought the idea was they were either breeders or they went for meat.


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## Alwaysbehind

I am confused too, Kevin. Where is it that they spay heifers?


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## kevinshorses

They spay them so they don't go into heat and they will gain wieght faster.


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## Alwaysbehind

There are operations that do not keep the females to produce more? They actually spay them and sell them for beef?


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## kevinshorses

Yes, most ranchers replace 10-15% of thier cows every year and about half of the calves are female so that leaves 35-40% of thier heifer calves going to meat. Also some ranchers use what is called a terminal cross. It's a crossbreed that makes great beef but may not make good breeding stock.


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## Speed Racer

Interesting! Thanks for the info, Kevin. It's always a successful day when I learn something new.


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## Alwaysbehind

Learned something...very interesting.


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## wyominggrandma

Yep, we do heifers all the time here, but they are so easy to do, less bleeding, less stress. Lets face it, cows can take alot, pulling calves, dead calves inside them, cutting up dead calves inside, they will still just stand there and eat and go about daily stuff with a half stuck calf hanging out. Do what you gotta do, stitch them up and off they go.
Horses??? Heck you look at them wrong and they fall apart.


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## MouseZ

Here's my deal. Would I kill a horse for food? No. But I also wouldn't kill a cow, deer, rabbit or chicken. I still eat them, but if I had to kill my own food I would go veggie. I would eat a dog or cat RAISED for consumption the same way I eat a cow. I think it's naive and asinine to say that a horse or dog or cat's life is more valuable and meaningful than lowly livestock. A pet is a pet and obviously I don't believe should be eaten, I am speaking strictly on animals raised to be consumed.

Hell, build a breeding facility, raise me a human, slice me a tender bit away from my eyesight and I will pretty much **** well enjoy it. I put NO animal above any other, humans vastly included.


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## bubba13

Why does it matter what purpose they were originally raised for?


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## MouseZ

It doesn't really, I just wouldn't eat a pet of mine, I think most people wouldn't. But I am not antislaughter. I hope it is under humane conditions but that unfortunately is asking a lot. Again, everything is on level playing field of love with me, pet or domistated livestock or wild. I think in the case of humans they would have to be raised for consumption, dont think people take to kindly to the eating of their relatives and loved ones lol.


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## Celeste

kevinshorses said:


> It's funny that they do heifers the same way and it costs $6 per head.


Heifers are spayed for $6 per head. It is done without anesthesia and without aseptic technique. A horse treated this way would be likely to die from infection. Cows are hard to kill. Horses are easy to kill. 

I personally will not cut parts off of any animal without anesthesia. It is inhumane beyond belief. It causes extreme pain and is certainly not a way to make friends. If a mare must be spayed, pay the $700 and have it done in a real hospital. My mares can live their entire life without being spayed or bred. I keep my fences maintained.


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## WildJessie

I will repeat what I said earlier again: 

_"I personally wouldn't eat a horse, I have eaten lamb, squid, pigeon, cow, chicken, and pig. But to me a horse is more than just an animal, they are a friend/companion. I love dogs and cats, and some countries eat dogs & cats. Funny story, I was at my great grandfathers funeral reception and they were having it catered. I forgot who catered it, but anywho, I went to get some meat because it smelled so good. I got some, and asked the man who was serving the meat "What is this?" He said "Lamb." I started thinking I am eating Lamb chop!(A character I loved as a child) but the lamb was very delicious and wouldn't hesitate to eat it again, as long as the food is cooked right.lol. Now what if the same situation happened and it was horse, would I still eat it?Depends if it tastes good and if I don't have some sort of weird reaction to it. But its not something I am not about to go "OMG YES! HORSE MEAT YUM!" for. If I am at a dinner, or something and the main dish is horse, then fine, but I prefer not to be told its a horse.lol.

But when it comes to dogs and cats. Sorry, that's just gross, IMO, and I have seen how they are transported and handled. I know most countries like the US, UK, and most European countries don't eat dog and cat. I would rather keep my horses than send them off to the slaughterhouse. My cousin who lives in OK had a bull who her kids bonded too and they eventually killed him and ate him. I can see how people consider them livestock, but some people need to understand that to some they are not considered livestock.

We have "canines" those pointy teeth, and they are there for a reason. I respect those who are vegans/vegetarians, but I HATE it when they go and try to shove their beliefs down my throat(PETA for example.) I HATE PETA, Never will I support them. Their ultimate goal is to END ALL ANIMAL OWNERSHIP, because they think its cruel and is like slavery.

I RESPECT other countries cultures and wouldn't force them to change it because I don't like what they are eating, and I hope they do the same in return."_

And I will add a few other things. I am ONLY against horse slaughter IF its done INHUMANELY. If its done HUMANELY then I am for it. If someone wants to eat horse, fine, I personally won't. BUT I won't bash them for it. Personally I would eat my own horses when they pass on or slaughter them for eating when they become too old. But if someone else does that fine. I may want to know why and want to know why they won't just let the horse pass on naturally. But thats just me.


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## sandy2u1

I bet there are horses and other animals owned by people right here on this forum that would happily sign up for slaughter as opposed to having to live in the situation they have been dealt. People letting their animals slowly starve to death and needlessly suffer in other ways seems to be the trend here lately.

There are worse fates than death.


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## WildJessie

sandy2u1 said:


> I bet there are horses and other animals owned by people right here on this forum that would happily sign up for slaughter as opposed to having to live in the situation they have been dealt. People letting their animals slowly starve to death and needlessly suffer in other ways seems to be the trend here lately.
> 
> There are worse fates than death.


If someone is letting their animals starve to death and needlessly suffer, then they should give the animal to someone who won't let the animal live that kind of life.


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## AlexS

WildJessie said:


> If someone is letting their animals starve to death and needlessly suffer, then they should give the animal to someone who won't let the animal live that kind of life.


More often than not, they don't see a problem with their animal care.


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## WildJessie

AlexS said:


> More often than not, they don't see a problem with their animal care.


Which is so sad.


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## Alwaysbehind

WildJessie said:


> If someone is letting their animals starve to death and needlessly suffer, then they should give the animal to someone who won't let the animal live that kind of life.


And really, where are all these homes that want to or can take on horses other people do not want? 

It is nice to think that there are enough homes out there but there just are not.


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## QH Gunner

WildJessie said:


> If someone is letting their animals starve to death and needlessly suffer, then they should give the animal to someone who won't let the animal live that kind of life.



Where do you suggest people find these homes? Not exactly everywhere. Even rescues are turning people down. There is no money. I've gotten 3 "free to a good home" horses in the last 2 months- all registered, trained, rideable, (except for the foal) beautiful horses. If people are giving these away- what do you think will happen to the untrained, unpapered animals? 

In a perfect world- your right. But as of right now, that's just unfeasible & not gonna happen. I'd rather see an animal humanely slaughtered then starve to death. I know ppl myself who need to get rid of their horses bc they just can not afford them. And they love them, don't want them to go.. But that kinda situation is presenting itself everywhere, & more then people think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

While people are conjuring up homes for the horses we can toss in a few cats and dogs too, and that will take care of the pet over population problem too.


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## bubba13

And unwanted/abused/neglected childen. Don't forget them!


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## Speed Racer

bubba13 said:


> And unwanted/abused/neglected children. Don't forget them!


Yeah, but we're not allowed to euth/eat them, and people get all fired up when you tell them maybe they should be using birth control instead of popping out more and more kids they can't or won't care for. :?


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## tempest

Speed Racer said:


> Yeah, but we're not allowed to euth/eat them, and people get all fired up when you tell them maybe they should be using birth control instead of popping out more and more kids they can't or won't care for. :?


Many of those people can't afford birth control. And if they can't afford birth control, they may do any job possible to earn money.

But my friend pointed something out one day. He said, "I don't get why people care more about animals than they do little children. You see all those comercials for abused and neglected animals, but people don't give a crap about the starving children."

Now what he said may not be completely and totally true, but there is a lot of truth to what he said.


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## Speed Racer

tempest said:


> Many of those people can't afford birth control. And if they can't afford birth control, they may do any job possible to earn money.


Children are much more expensive that birth control. Besides, many Planned Parenthood places give it away for free. There's no excuse to have children you can't care for. _None._

Many of these people popping out kids like watermelon seeds don't WANT to work. They're doing it so they can get welfare and WIC.


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## bubba13

_But my friend pointed something out one day. He said, "I don't get why people care more about animals than they do little children. You see all those comercials for abused and neglected animals, but people don't give a crap about the starving children."_

Just because one cares about or chooses to support one good cause, that does not mean that the other cause is not thought to be worthwhile--there are many, many needy charities.


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## Alwaysbehind

tempest said:


> Many of those people can't afford birth control. And if they can't afford birth control, they may do any job possible to earn money.


If you can not afford birth control or the amount of exercise it takes to walk over to the closest free clinic that will give you birth control free of charge no questions asked then maybe you should not be doing what it is that causes the making of children. :wink:

We are humans. We have the ability to make conscious decisions. We do not act solely on instinct like animals do. Animals reproduce because instinct tells them they have to. We do not have this problem so there is no excuse to be squeezing out kids that you say you are only having because you can not afford birth control.



tempest said:


> But my friend pointed something out one day. He said, "I don't get why people care more about animals than they do little children. You see all those comercials for abused and neglected animals, but people don't give a crap about the starving children."


Um...there are lots of commercials on TV all over the place about starving kids in other countries. Your friend is obviously simply not seeing them. If you only watch Animal planet you are not likely to see anything but animal commercials.

In the US there is no reason to have starving children. Free breakfast at the schools, even all summer long. Free lunch at the schools, even all summer long. Food stamps for dinner.


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## MN Tigerstripes

> Many of those people can't afford birth control. And if they can't afford birth control, they may do any job possible to earn money.


Speaking from experience it is incredibly easy to get free birth control. It's something I've done on and off for the last 10 years depending on how much money I had or didn't have. My IUD was even free because I made so little money. It really isn't that hard to prevent pregnancy, no matter how little money you make.

_



If someone is letting their animals starve to death and needlessly suffer, then they should give the animal to someone who won't let the animal live that kind of life.

Click to expand...

__This weeks paper had 2 free horses and 1 for $50, these people probably cannot afford to feed their animals and are trying to find them new homes, but a lot of other people in the area are struggling too. Finding homes for all of them is not all that easy. If I could I'd take all three of those horses (I'm a huge softie, heck I'd take half the ones on CL too) but there is just no way I can afford to feed another horse right now. Many horse people are in the same position. _


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## Celeste

If you can't afford birth control, you can do without sex. We can survive without it.

About horse slaughter facilities; one of the problems when there was a slaughter plant in Alabama was that horse theft was way up. People would steal kids pets and drive them on the back roads over the state line. Before anybody knew they were missing, they were dead. I also remember being harrassed by horse traders trying to scam me into selling my nice fat horses for cheap. They said that they wanted them for 4-H kids. I suspect that they wanted to feed them to European kids. 

I would rather eat a dog than a horse. Please make mine well done. They carry trichinosis.


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## Speed Racer

I have an actual aversion to eating a carnivore, for some reason. I don't have a problem if someone else wants to eat a dog or cat, but for some reason the squick factor is pretty high for me.

Yep, the scammers are still out there. Promise a loving, wonderful forever home to the pretty ponehs, then take them straight to auction. :-x


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## AlexS

tempest said:


> But my friend pointed something out one day. He said, "I don't get why people care more about animals than they do little children. You see all those comercials for abused and neglected animals, but people don't give a crap about the starving children."


There is no reason for children to be starving in this country, however if it did occur through cruelty it should be noticed in school and the kids would be removed. 

I cannot think of a single person who does not care about abused or neglected children.


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## themacpack

AlexS said:


> There is no reason for children to be starving in this country, however if it did occur through cruelty it should be noticed in school and the kids would be removed.
> 
> I cannot think of a single person who does not care about abused or neglected children.


There may be no reason, but it is happening. You don't have to be on death's door from malnutirtion to be suffering from hunger. There are plenty of people (children and adult alike) who do not have enough food on a daily basis. Hunger in America is a very real problem.


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## themacpack

> Originally Posted by *tempest*
> _But my friend pointed something out one day. He said, "I don't get why people care more about animals than they do little children. You see all those comercials for abused and neglected animals, but people don't give a crap about the starving children."_


How has he missed seeing all the same commercials about the starving children? I see them all the time, usually right along with the ones about animal cruelty.


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## Alwaysbehind

themacpack said:


> There may be no reason, but it is happening. You don't have to be on death's door from malnutirtion to be suffering from hunger. There are plenty of people (children and adult alike) who do not have enough food on a daily basis. Hunger in America is a very real problem.


I am hungry!

Now, that might be because I am trying to eat less. 
But I am for sure hungry.



Lots of the lower income (on food stamps and welfare) people who might be hungry are hungry because they are not shopping wisely with their available funds.


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## Speed Racer

Many actual starving children are in poor rural places, such as Appalachia.

Of course, their parents are starving too. No jobs, no money, and those rural people are proud and won't ask for help or go on welfare.


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## AlexS

I realize that hunger in commonplace. But there is a significant difference between hunger and starvation.


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## Celeste

A lot of children that are hungry in America are hungry because their parents use all the money to buy drugs and alcohol.

In developing countries, a lot of hunger is due to political unrest.


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## Celeste

By the way, I would not eat a dog either. Or a cat or a rat. But then, I am not really hungry.


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## WildJessie

I wouldn't eat a dog or cat either. But there are cultures that do, so I respect them.


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## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> By the way, I would not eat a dog either. Or a cat or a rat. But then, I am not really hungry.


I doubt any of us are who can afford computers, horses, and homes. I've been known to get peckish once in awhile, but real hunger? Nope.


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## Speed Racer

Weird double post, please ignore, nothing to see, let's keep moving.....


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## AlexS

Rubber necking to see what is going on!


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## themacpack

Why does it matter "why" people are hungry/starving/doing without? Especially when those people are children?


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## Alwaysbehind

themacpack said:


> Why does it matter "why" people are hungry/starving/doing without? Especially when those people are children?


Hu?

I am not sure I get your point.

I am sure everyone is willing to agree that it is sad that their are kids who are hungry because their parents are idiots. 

The way matters because we as a society are already doing just about everything we can to make sure they are not hungry (free breakfast and lunch at schools and food stamps for the family). We can not make the parents act like responsible people and not use their welfare monies for things they were not intended for, etc.

Do you think we (society) should give more monies to these families just so the parents can get their nails done more often and get high a little more frequently with better quality drugs? Do you think it will help the kids hunger? I am thinking not.


----------



## themacpack

Alwaysbehind said:


> Hu?
> 
> I am not sure I get your point.
> 
> I am sure everyone is willing to agree that it is sad that their are kids who are hungry because their parents are idiots.
> 
> The way matters because we as a society are already doing just about everything we can to make sure they are not hungry (free breakfast and lunch at schools and food stamps for the family). We can not make the parents act like responsible people and not use their welfare monies for things they were not intended for, etc.
> 
> Do you think we (society) should give more monies to these families just so the parents can get their nails done more often and get high a little more frequently with better quality drugs? Do you think it will help the kids hunger? I am thinking not.


To me, the discussion of "why" people are hungry is important IF it is about identifying the causes and working towards solutions - however, it is more often a matter of why people 'deserve' to be suffering because of the sucky choices they (or the parents, in the case of children effected by hunger) are making. My point in asking was to try and get people to think about why they were making a point about making an issue of why people they were speaking of were/would be dealing with hunger in their life. It was asked to provoke thought..........
Poverty and all that comes with it (ie hunger) is something I am deeply passionate about and something I am forever looking to expand my knowledge of -- including knowledge of the perception and thoughts of others.


----------



## Celeste

Nobody deserves to be hungry. Adults often have choices; children rarely do.
Just because people are concerned about neglected animals doesn't mean that they don't care about hungry children.

One thing for sure; if you can't afford to take care of your kids, you sure don't need pets.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

I definitely care about hungry children, but frankly most of the hungry adults I know have plenty of money for booze and smokes so I have a lot less sympathy for them. The families I know that have some trouble keeping food in the kids' mouths usually have 2 parents that smoke at least a pack a day and probably drink a 6 pack every night. That's $25 each day that could be better served feeding their children, but to them their addiction is more important and there is very little that can be done about that. 

I'm a hunter and I usually end up giving food to these families to help them out. It does **** me off a bit when I see the parents outside smoking/drinking and I'm the one giving their kids food. Especially because I'm just as broke as most of them.

As to the question of whether or not someone deserves to suffer for their poor choices? Yes they do. That's how you (in theory) learn to stop making bad decisions. I am suffering for my past in some ways as are plenty of my friends, but I don't expect other people or the government to help me. 

This doesn't apply to children or the mentally ill either. I would do a lot to help someone out who is unable to help themselves, but I draw the line at healthy, capable adults.


----------



## Rowdy Girl

Speed Racer said:


> Um, you've picked the wrong forum to be hatin' on people eating horses. Very few of us here have a problem with it, especially since many European horses are raised primarily as food animals, just like cattle.
> 
> I'd think being French, you wouldn't have a problem with it since you've been raised to think it's normal.


Jeeez !... couldn't agree more....for a Equine Lov'n site... I'm floored to EVEN see this question and no, I didn't read the entire thread...the heading was enough to gross the crap outta me... :twisted:

Ok.... read some more and still sick'ned.... Understand the hungrey issue and I'll tell you all that... I will for go a nice evening out with my husband, new shoe's...whatever, but my horse's will have the proper food and care in all aspect's... WE are thier voice's ( wish there was a smacking head smiley)


----------



## kevinshorses

I love horses. Sometimes I love them under saddle and sometimes I love them under gravy!


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

If Soda doesn't come out sound soon, he's going to be under gravy... :lol: He's even nice and fat from having the last month off and grazing in the pasture...


----------



## Celeste

I never ate a horse, but my cousin was forced to either eat horse or starve years ago when he was in some remote 3rd world place in the military. He said that it is very poor quality meat and tastes bad. He said that it was similar to moose meat, which I hate. (I don't hate all wild game, but moose doesn't agree with my palate.)


----------



## NdAppy

Celeste a lot of the meat's flavor depends on what and how often an animal is fed. Good example for me are deer. The deer we harvest have a good flavor, but they regularly feed on corn and soybeans. Go farther west and they get into sage and their meat tends to have a sage flavor to it that I cannot stand.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_^^Thats why I didn't like plains antelope. Stupid ******s eat sage all day._


----------



## MouseZ

NdAppy said:


> Go farther west and they get into sage and their meat tends to have a sage flavor to it that I cannot stand.





VelvetsAB said:


> _^^Thats why I didn't like plains antelope. Stupid ******s eat sage all day._


Sounds like a brilliant strategy! Point - herbivores.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

First world problems man, first world problems! :lol: It's become a running joke in our household, and it really does apply here.


----------



## goodhrs

ellabella97 said:


> Hi, I am from England where it is illegal- I am with most English people in saying that eating and selling horse meat is disgusting and shouldn't be allowed-


 Well, you stay there & we'll stay here. We dont want your rules, Remember the May Flower?


----------



## faye

goodhrs, ellabella doesnt have a clue. I'm also british and I eat horse meat. It is NOT illegal here and if she bothered to do her research a lot of people in the uk would say they would try it!


----------



## Celeste

Enjoy. Me, I think I will have a nice beef steak.


----------



## tempest

Celeste said:


> Enjoy. Me, I think I will have a nice beef steak.


Steak is very good. I wouldn't be opposed to trying horse meat though.


----------



## NdAppy

tempest said:


> Steak is very good. I wouldn't be opposed to trying horse meat though.


I wouldn't either. 

That doesn't mean that any of us are going to go out of our way looking for it either.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

Re: horse meat is poor quality, like moose meat

Quality depends on the condition of the animal as well as the cut of meat. Personal tastes also comes into play.
I have never eaten horse, but I was once in a restaurant where the guy at the next table was having horse steak. (I am in Ontario, and this one restaurant was the only one I have seen before or since with horse on the menu. It is no longer here, btw). I agree that it Looks like moose, in that it was a very dark rich red.
I personally like moose, deer not as much. Although I wouldn't go out of my way to eat horse, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Naturally I wouldn't eat my horses, but yes, I would eat yours, lol.
I would have to be pretty desperate to eat cat. I have heard that the meat is just bad.


----------



## Celeste

I will eat horse meant when I am too poor to afford what I consider proper food.
I don't see that happening in the near future.

I'll gladly pass the salt though.


----------



## Celeste

Even if I can't afford beef steak, there are other options.

Chitlins!!

Not terribly appetizing to me, but to each his own...........


----------



## Celeste

They say the French love to eat horses. They also love snails. I don't go that route.......


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

MMm, love me some pig intestines, lol.
Actually, celeste, the horse on the menu was far from cheap!


----------



## Celeste

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Actually, celeste, the horse on the menu was far from cheap!


Now that is amazing.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

Ha, I love escargot!! lol.
If we ever meet, lets just go for drinks, ok?


----------



## Skipsfirstspike

Well, they Were trying to sell it to city folk who don't know any better. 
Just like escargot!!!


----------



## Celeste

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Ha, I love escargot!! lol.
> If we ever meet, lets just go for drinks, ok?


 
You got a deal!

I don't actually eat pig intestines.

I do, however, absolutely love fried pig skins.


----------



## goodhrs

faye said:


> goodhrs, ellabella doesnt have a clue. I'm also british and I eat horse meat.


 That's the problem, most people dont, they just talk alot of trash & make a bunch of noise but dont put any financial support out there. If they had even seen a horse starve, or suffer with chronic pain, they would maybe realize that the process plants are a nessacary evil. It would be a boost to the economy and provide much needed jobs & food. I am sure the starving people in Africa wouldnt care if it was beef or horse meat:shock:. JMO


----------



## Celeste

goodhrs said:


> I am sure the starving people in Africa wouldnt care if it was beef or horse meat:shock:. JMO


This is correct. They will also eat your dog or your cat and I don't blame them. What would be wrong with processing Spot and Fluffy into food? Well your average American is not going for that. We also decided as a nation that we would not support horse slaughter. People don't want their tax money going to the inspection of these animals. If you feel differently, then vote that way.

If tests were done for drugs in the meat, most would fail inspection. Horses that have had bute for cronic pain are not considered quality food for humans. Bute can cause liver damage in humans. There have been no tests studying the effects of dewormers and vaccinations in horses on humans. With cattle, all approved drugs have specific withdrawal times that must be adhered to before the animals enter the human food chain. This is a human safety issue.


----------



## goodhrs

Celeste said:


> We also decided as a nation that we would not support horse slaughter. People don't want their tax money going to the inspection of these animals.QUOTE] Well, I never voted against it, I support it. So it wasnt me as a nation.


----------



## Celeste

goodhrs said:


> Celeste said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also decided as a nation that we would not support horse slaughter. People don't want their tax money going to the inspection of these animals.QUOTE] Well, I never voted against it, I support it. So it wasnt me as a nation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of things that "the nation" voted for are not supported by me.
> I personally would like to see a lot less rules and regulations on a lot of stuff. Food safety is only fair though. If we are going to sell food to a wide market, we need to finance a way to be sure it is safe. Things that could be cut in my opinion include but are not limited to:
> 
> bombs
> killing people
> putting kids in prison for non-violent crimes
> huge salaries for politicians
> 
> This is just a short list. Even those four being cut out would leave enough money to support food safety and probably free homes for all horses..........
Click to expand...


----------



## Celeste

There is no way to continue this conversation without it becoming extremely political. Since I don't want to get kicked off the forum, I believe I'll quit here.


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> We also decided as a nation that we would not support horse slaughter.


I seem to recall that 'we as a nation' decided on prohibition too, and you see how well THAT turned out. :rofl:

I liken the closing of the slaughter plants to prohibition. A certain, hysterical segment of society caused the issues, and the rest of the nation eventually realized, 'Hey, we were stupid to even_ consider_ something that boneheaded! What the heck is wrong with us?' 

Prohibition was repealed, and I'll bet the slaughter plants will reopen again. The minority of crazy people eventually get pushed aside, as is well and proper.


----------



## Celeste

Speed Racer said:


> I seem to recall that 'we as a nation' decided on prohibition too, and you see how well THAT turned out. :rofl:
> Prohibition was repealed


More people are concerned with the pros and cons of the legalization of cannibus than they are with horse slaughter, yet it is still illegal.


----------



## Celeste

oops. double post


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> More people are concerned with the pros and cons of the legalization of cannibus than they are with horse slaughter, yet it is still illegal.


I don't have a problem with marijuana becoming legalized. Heck, it's no more damaging than alcohol, and most people who smoke it tend to be mellow instead of aggressive, as some folks seem to get when they're drunk.

Horse slaughter in this country isn't illegal, so there's really no comparison to the legalization/nonlegalization of marijuana. Don't know why people think it's illegal to slaughter horses in the US, because it's not.

Oh, in a few states like the Land of Fruits and Nuts (California) and Oregon it's illegal, but the majority of the US have no such laws on the books.


----------



## Celeste

So slaughter is not illegal, but the USDA is not willing to foot the bill on inspection? This would mean it is not illegal, but not profitable. Each facility would have to hire trained inspectors on their own. Correct? If this is true, maybe people who feel that horse slaughter is good for horses should open their own slaughter plant. Invest their own money into the venture. People like me who like horses better alive would just not do business with them. 

I'm leaving the marijuana discussion where it is for now..........


----------



## bubba13

They're working on doing it through the states' funding and inspections now. Last I heard it sounded like a plant is almost definitely going to open in Wyoming.


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> So slaughter is not illegal, but the USDA is not willing to foot the bill on inspection? This would mean it is not illegal, but not profitable.


Actually, it's _quite_ profitable from what I understand, but the owners of the plants had a Catch 22 situation when the USDA inspectors were pulled from the plants. If you can't hire actual USDA inspectors, the meat can't be approved by the USDA for human consumption. So hiring private inspectors would not only be expensive, but useless.

The problem is that the plants were owned by Europeans, who have no such scruples about putting Sparkplug steaks onto someone's plate, and they were forced out because of the cost and hassle created by the anti equine slaughter contingent.

Since the number of US horses slaughtered hasn't changed one iota, except that they're being sent outside the country instead of being processed here, I foresee the US government reevaluating their decision to pull the USDA inspectors.



Celeste said:


> People like me who like horses better alive would just not do business with them.


I don't think anyone has an issue with this opinion. It's just when someone tries to force their ideas and opinions down everyone elses throats as the only MORAL option, is where people not opposed to equine slaughter have a problem.

I don't plan on eating any of my personal horses, but I'd be tempted to try filet of Flicka if it was made available to me.

Celeste, you've actually been a breath of fresh air concerning the slaughter issue. It's nice to be able to have an actual, adult discussion with someone opposed to it. If all antis were as reasonable and well written (well spoken?) as you, maybe people wouldn't keep falling back on hysteria and name calling. Both sides have their fanatics, so neither side can claim the moral high ground.


----------



## VelvetsAB

Celeste said:


> If this is true, maybe people who feel that horse slaughter is good for horses should open their own slaughter plant. .


_I doubt anyone feels that it is *GOOD* for horses to be slaughtered, but rather a necessary evil._

_Honestly, I can say that I would rather it not have to happen, but my realist brain realizes that that would be impossible._

_All those people complaining about horses being mistreated on trucks and having to suffer long drives to the meat plants, are the ones who put them in that situation by shutting down the American plants. Would it have not made more sense to have a shorter drive for them to go to?_



_And as an Ontario resident, I can say that the legalization of pot (albeit you are only allowed to have enough for one on you) hasn't had any negative effects that I am aware of. _


----------



## Celeste

Speed Racer said:


> I don't plan on eating any of my personal horses, but I'd be tempted to try filet of Flicka if it was made available to me.


They say if you roll one and light it you won't feel so hostile..........


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> They say if you roll one and light it you won't feel so hostile..........


Now now, I just gave you kudos for not hitting below the belt, and here you go. I rescind what I just said about you being reasonable and adult. :?


----------



## Celeste

Lol! Sorry.

I am an old hippy at heart. What can I say?

It wasn't a cut.........

Is big brother reading these posts?


----------



## Celeste

Ok, I'll go back to being an adult.

My biggest concern is the horse theft issue. It was very real when there was a plant in Alabama. People would steal horses and take them to the slaughter plant immediately. As soon as the animals were noticed missing, they were dead and disposed of. No evidence left behind.


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> It wasn't a cut.........


Awright, but I'm keepin' an eye on you, ya hippie! Dang long hairs! 



Celeste said:


> Is big brother reading these posts?


Most likely. Big Brother, aka Admin and the mods, try to keep a handle on us. It's tough herding cats, though. :wink:

Horses are still being stolen. They had that big brouhaha about it in the Florida papers, where horses were being snatched and then illegally butchered for meat. I'm not sure theft is ever going to be completely eradicated, no matter whether the plants are here in the US or not.

If it's a real concern, maybe the regulations on accepting single animals from individuals need to be tightened. Most kill buyers bring a whole truck full of horses, not by ones and two.


----------



## Celeste

There needs to be a holding time and perhaps a mandatory reporting to the local sherriff's office. 

With pets, pounds must scan all animals for microchips before 
re-homing or euthanazia. Something like that would help. 

There is also the problem of drug withdrawals. There are no established withdrawals on most equine veterinary drugs. Which would you prefer in your food? Ivermectin, pyrantel, rabies vaccine, west nile vaccine, eastern equine encephalitis vaccine (make that 
attenuated --- aka modified live) ............
Oh, what about Winstrol V? What if your old man gets some of that and loses his mojo?

A point in history: 

Early canine rabies vaccines were attenuated. Cats exposed to the vaccines could develop rabies and die. There were cases of such infected cats that may have been able to transmit viable virus to other cats. Rabies vaccines in horses are killed, however, some other human pathogens such as eastern equine encephalitis virus may be 
attenuated. Without controlled studies, who can say whether these vaccine virus particles may or may not be infectious to humans? 

I prefer to consume USDA inspected food. It still has enough problems to kill you. Why go further from safety?

One more note on eating non-USDA inspected food. Mexican food inspection.... It may have changed, but when I was involved in meat inspection, I was informed that Mexican inspection authorities allowed rabies infected beef to pass inspection. Granted, there is not proof that rabies virus can survive meat processing. Is there proof that it cannot?


----------



## Speed Racer

The majority of beef and dairy cattle get the same types of drugs/chemicals as horses, just in different dosages. So how can it be okay to give them to cattle and yet not raise holy heck when the animals are milked or processed for meat?

Besides, if something stayed in the muscle mass indefinitely, why would we need to continue to dose them? The drugs lose their potency once they've been absorbed into the animal's system, and will eventually be flushed out.

So if the same drugs and chemicals can be given to cattle that are going to be turned into meat, why does everyone use the argument that horses are just FULL of the same drugs, yet no one raises the alarm about the burgers they're wolfing down or the milk they're drinking?

That has puzzled me for years, and I've never gotten a definitive answer.


----------



## Celeste

Excellent point. 

In the state of Georgia, it is not legal to use antibiotics continuously or to use growth hormones at all in pork or poultry. 
I do not know if other states are the same. 
There is no such law for cattle in Georgia. There are withdrawal times in cattle that have been established through testing. They are on the drug labels. 
Most equine drug labels read "not for horses intended for food."


----------



## kevinshorses

Celeste said:


> Ok, I'll go back to being an adult.
> 
> My biggest concern is the horse theft issue. It was very real when there was a plant in Alabama. People would steal horses and take them to the slaughter plant immediately. As soon as the animals were noticed missing, they were dead and disposed of. No evidence left behind.


The best way to combat this is with brand inspection laws and branding your animals. Here in the west we have brand inspectors that look at every animal that goes through an auction or through a plant and if the paperwork doesn't match the brand then the animal is put on hold until it's sorted out.


----------



## ShutUpJoe

Trust me Speed Racer. The alarm is being raised for cattle as well. This was brought up at the Horse Summit this year and is the whole reason I don't eat beef.
http://thepersianhorse.wordpress.co...-slaughter-wants-you-to-eat-your-own-partner/


----------



## faye

In the UK we have microchips and freezebrands. All horses are checked before they go to slaughter and they also have thier passport checked. In the passport is a section that the owner has to sign if they don't want the horse to go for slaughter or the vet has to sign before administering medication to the horse that should not enter the human food chain.


----------



## ShutUpJoe

Here is an article on horse VS cow and bute:
Disquieting Truth about Toxic Horse Meat Part 2

Very informative.


----------



## faye

Having worked in an abattoir in the UK I can tell you that the drug legislation is incredibly tight for beef and lamb. You can litteraly trace meat from the packet on the supermarket shelf right back to the individual cows and all drugs it has ever had.

Heck the abattoir where I worked was incredibly strict about animal welfare and cattle only came from within a 50mile radius. Also in order to be called welsh beef the animal has to be born, raised and slaughtered in wales. It can NEVER leave wales whilst alive. Organic meat is even stricter.


----------



## Celeste

If I am going to take drugs into my body, I prefer to choose which ones.............

I don't eat much meat. Mostly drug free poultry or pork. Very occasionally will I some beef.


----------



## DrumRunner

If you live in Georgia there is almost no way you're eating drug free poultry unless you are raising and eating your own chickens..The poultry houses in Georgia get as much steroids as they do feed.


----------



## Celeste

Have you looked at a label lately?
They have changed.


----------



## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> There are withdrawal times in cattle that have been established through testing. They are on the drug labels.
> Most equine drug labels read "not for horses intended for food."


So why, if there have been withdrawal times established for cattle, the same hasn't been done for horses?

Regardless of whether they're sent to slaughter, isn't that something vets and the general horse owning populace would benefit from knowing? I most certainly would find that information helpful.


----------



## Celeste

Some drugs have withdrawals listed. Many just say not to eat the horse.


----------



## DrumRunner

Have you ever been to a chicken house? Please don't tell me you believe everything on a label.


----------



## spookychick13

I just asked my boss (Vet) who used to do farm calls if they used Bute in cows.
He said 'No, not if they were intended for human consumption.'


----------



## Speed Racer

That's not helpful, since many people who have no intentions of sending their horses to slaughter would still like to know when their animals will be free from a particular drug or chemical.

Again, if they've already done tests for it on cattle, _why_ hasn't it been done on horses? Horses are just as much livestock as cattle, swine, goats, and sheep, so I don't see why they've been exempted. 

It's also an anti argument that the drugs and chemicals NEVER leave the body, which is just silly. The kidneys and liver filter out toxins continuously, so there's no way something will stay in the animal forever.


----------



## spookychick13

I know there is a blood/urine screening available to check for bute in the system.


----------



## Celeste

DrumRunner said:


> Have you ever been to a chicken house? Please don't tell me you believe everything on a label.


If a label says "hormone and antibiotic free" and I send a sample to the department of agriculture and they test it and find these drugs, the company will be forced to do a massive recall. I could also sue them. I could use some extra money. Hmmmmmmmm. I see a plan................


----------



## kevinshorses

Speed Racer said:


> It's also an anti argument that the drugs and chemicals NEVER leave the body, which is just silly. The kidneys and liver filter out toxins continuously, so there's no way something will stay in the animal forever.


It's something that makes so little sense that it amazes me why normally intelligent people believe it.


----------



## Celeste

I doubt anybody thinks that they don't leave the body.
The question is when.
Also, there are no particular regulations in the states for horse drug withdrawal times even if they are established.


----------



## spookychick13

I suppose this is all wrong, correct?
Disquieting Truth about Toxic Horse Meat Part 2


----------



## ShutUpJoe

"While there is list of medications that require a withholding period of six months, others such as the common anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone, or bute, cannot be given to horses at all if they are to enter the human food chain."

New requirements set to bite American horse slaughter trade | Horsetalk - International horse news


Why would the BAN the use of bute in horses intended for slaughter... if it was okay to eat it? 


And they do ship to slaughter:
ScienceDirect - Food and Chemical Toxicology : Association of phenylbutazone usage with horses bought for slaughter: A public health risk


So even if meat buyers are required to have 6 month "quarantine" on horses intended for slaughter, doesn't mean they actually do it. They forge paperword or EIDs and send the horse through straight from the auction. And Bute, if a horse is given enough, can damage the bone marrow of a human. And this isn't the only dangerous drug that is on the Not Intended list. 

Here is more information:
Canadian Food Inspection Agency - Meat Hygiene Manual of Procedures - Chapter 17 - Annex E

Complete with the EID paperwork. So you can see how easy it is to forge it. If you scroll down you will see a chart that lists all the drugs. You will see how many say horses not intended for food. And if you recall in the 1970s people stopped using horses for dog food because the meat was poisoning their dogs. 

Here is some of what the chart says:

Thyrostats, antithyroid agents administered under any circumstances for the purpose of growth promotion

-Approved for use in humans. Use in animals would be under veterinary control, but animals treated with these substances would not be eligible for slaughter.

Steroidal hormonal implants used for growth promotion purposes

-Equine animals treated with steroid containing hormone implants used to promote growth are not eligible for slaughter in Canada.


Phenylbutazone (bute)

-*Note: All of the products listed carry an indication for use in equine (but not equine intended to be slaughtered for food)


*Estradiol
*Nitrofurazone
*Boldenone
Ventipulmin Syrup
Antibiotics used for growth promotion purposes such as olaquindox, carbadox, and tylosin

All not for horses intended for food. Now that is a perfectly good link that says it clear as day.


----------



## Celeste

spookychick13 said:


> I suppose this is all wrong, correct?
> Disquieting Truth about Toxic Horse Meat Part 2



I think it has a lot of validity.

Quote from article:

"C*learly there is apt rationale for banning phenylbutazone for human use as well as animals intended for human consumption both as a function of its toxicity and the causal certainty that residues will always be present to some extent in the blood and hence tissues of animals slaughtered for food. *Additionally, what is most disconcerting is that the lethal adverse effects in humans are not always dose-dependent and demonstrate unique outcomes contingent on a particular individual’s susceptibility.* In essence what this implies is that even in small quantities phenylbutazone and its metabolites can have deleterious effects on human health.* [7]

*To this end, the FDA has banned the use of phenylbutazone in horses destined for slaughter."*


----------



## VelvetsAB

_I guess no one should be eating fruits and vegetables either, because most come with pesticides on them. _


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Stop with all that logic, Velvet.


----------



## Speed Racer

Wasn't bute originally manufactured for humans, but they had to stop when it kept causing -oopsie!- unwanted deaths?


----------



## spookychick13

I knew a vet that took it on a daily basis.
Rumor was when he passed away he had 0 bone marrow left.


----------



## ShutUpJoe

Well, I get my fruit from the farmer's market and I always make sure I wash it off before I eat it.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_Sorry Always. Just couldn't help myself. My next comment will also be logical._

_I really don't think rinsing with water will really help, cause otherwise the rain would just wash it off...no? _

_Just because fruit is from the farmers market, does not mean that it doesn't have some type of pesticide on it._



_But then again, I'm the person who will test a(as in one) grape at the store to make sure they taste ok before buying. Full pesticide into my belly, and I'm still alive... _

_Not to mention, meat is normally frozen, partially unthawed, then refrozen, making it susceptible (sp??) to germs like samonila (sp?). It is partially unthawed for cutting purposes. __Oh, and don't forget to not eat the cuts that have gone through bone, because there is a germ, whose name I forget, can contaminate the meat._

_Also don't use mobile phones or microwaves, because those aren't good for us either._


----------



## spookychick13

You can buy vegetable wash.

I don't really see how pesticide on fruit/veggies is really that comparable.

It's like comparing apples and horses. Har har har.
Or would that be horses and oranges?

Anyway, this discussion is always going to be pro-slaughter vs. anti-slaughter and I'm pretty sure that neither group will ever change the other's mind.

I just find it interesting that some of the people who are pro-slaughter on this thread will jump right down the throat of someone who is doing something that might be considered neglect or abuse.

Double standards apply.

My personal opinion is that some people can justify anything to assuage guilt.

And with that, I'm done with this debate.


----------



## Speed Racer

spookychick13 said:


> I just find it interesting that some of the people who are pro-slaughter on this thread will jump right down the throat of someone who is doing something that might be considered neglect or abuse.


What does expecting someone to be responsible for their animals have to do with whether they go for meat or not?

I've never understood the logic that those of us who aren't opposed to slaughter are somehow okay with neglect and abuse.

I believe in the fair treatment and responsible stewardship of _all_ animals, regardless of their ultimate fate. 

How that applies to being a double standard, I have no clue. :?


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## VelvetsAB

_How is it NOT compareable? The only difference being it is put on our food, rather then in it._


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## ShutUpJoe

Spookychic! I was thinking the same darn thing and was talking to another member on here about it earlier! 


As far as washing my veggies and fruits, yes we use a specific wash for them.  And in the summer we grow some of our own things pesticide free. And our neighbor gives us corn, squash, peppers and tomatoes. And my mother in law grows potatoes, peppers, grapes, carrots, onions and lots of other things.


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## greenhorn7

Unfortunately, we allowed a small group of people who think they are "saving the horses" to push through legislation to close U.S. slaughterhouses. Better legislation would have been to regulate the houses to ensure humane conditions of slaughter. Now, horses are subjected to inhumane conditions of transport as well as who knows what kinds of slaughter. It is no longer in our (U.S.) hands. It was a mistake.


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## ShutUpJoe

No it was not a mistake. American horses are not raised for slaughter. There is no market for them here. Their meat is toxic and it doesn't end cruel shipping or treatment of the plants. If you'd read the letter I provided from the mayor of a town of one of the last slaughter houses you'll see that the city or town that housed one of theses slaughter houses could quickly go broke trying to regulate the slaughter house. The plants will be foreigned owned because that is where the demand is, the same as it was before. 

The letter:

Dear State Legislator: You will soon be asked to vote on ... legislation regarding the commercial slaughter of American horses of which you probably have very little firsthand knowledge. No doubt you have heard from lobbyists and organizations who want you to support the practice, but before you do, you should ask yourself why the residents of Texas and Illinois worked so hard to rid their states of their horse slaughter plants. The answer may surprise you.
As a mayor who lived with this plague in her town for many years, who knows what the horse slaughter industry really is and what it does to a community, please allow me to tell you what we experienced. The industry caused significant and long term hardship to my community which was home to Dallas Crown, one of the last three horse slaughter plants in the United States. 
All three plants were foreign-owned, and since the market for horsemeat is entirely foreign, the industry will always be dominated by these foreign interests. The corporations involved in this industry have consistently proven themselves to be the worst possible corporate citizens.
The Dallas Crown horse slaughtering facility had been in operation in Kaufman since the late 70's and from the beginning had caused problems both economically and environmentally. I have listed some of the specific issues below.
I will gladly provide you with detailed reports from my former City Manager, Police Chief, and Public Works Director regarding odor and wastewater effluence violations at the Dallas Crown horse slaughter plant in the City of Kaufman. The reports reference "decaying meat [which] provides a foul odor and is an attraction for vermin and carrion," containers conveyed "uncovered and leaking liquids," there are "significant foul odors during the daily monitoring of the area," and "Dallas Crown continually neglects to perform within the standards required of them."

Therefore, in August of 2005, our City Council decided by unanimous decision to send the Dallas Crown issue to the Board of Adjustments for termination of their non-conforming use status. In March of 2006, the Board of Adjustments voted to order Dallas Crown closed, but the plant was able to tie the enforcement up in the courts until they were finally closed under state law in February of 2007. 
Dallas Crown repeatedly described itself as a "good corporate citizen." I will be straightforward in asserting that they are the very antithesis of such.

o Dallas Crown had a very long history of violations to their industrial waste permit, ‘loading' the capacity of the wastewater treatment plant.
o Dallas Crown denied the City access to their property for wastewater testing beginning October 1, 2004 until July 6, 2005, despite requirement by city ordinance, city permit agreement, and court order.
o City staff reported that a $6 million upgrade to our wastewater treatment plant would be required even though the plant was planned and financed to last through 2015. 
o Odor problems resulting from the outside storage of offal and hides over several days persisted not only in traditionally African-American neighborhood known as "Boggy Bottom", but at the nearby Presbyterian Hospital, the daycare center, and surrounding areas.
o Transport of offal and fresh hides on City and state thoroughfares is conducted in leaking containers without covers.
o City documents reveal an extended history of efforts to have Dallas Crown address various environmental issues. Reports include descriptive language including such as "blood flowing east and west in the ditches from your plant," "It has been over 45 days [it had been 59 days] and no apparent cleanup has occurred," "Your system has not improved and subsequently it has gotten a lot worse," "Words cannot express the seriousness" of recent violations and the "adverse effects on the wastewater treatment plant," and "Please be sure trailers are secured before leaving your premises to prevent spills," noting also "bones and blood laying in front of the facility," problems with bones and parts in neighboring yards and the attraction of "dogs and other animals."
o In response to 29 citations for wastewater violations, each accompanied by a potential fine of $2,000, Dallas Crown requested 29 separate jury trials, potentially causing yet another economic strain to the City's budget. We could, of course, not afford to litigate in order to extract the fines.
o Dallas Crown took 11 months to submit a mandatory "sludge control plan" to assist efficient operation of the wastewater treatment plant though City staff requested it orally and in writing many times.
o The City Manager advised me that the City would have to spend $70,000 in legal fees because of Dallas Crown problems, which was the entire legal budget for the fiscal year.
o During this period, Dallas Crown paid property taxes that were less than half of what the City spent on legal fees directly related to Dallas Crown violations.
o Generally, Dallas Crown has the economic ability to prevail, to exceed the constraints of the City's budget.
Dallas Crown had a negative effect on the development of surrounding properties, and a horse slaughter plant is a stigma to the development of our city generally. I have since learned that these problems were mirrored at the other two plants. Fort Worth's Beltex horse slaughter plant also violated Ft. Worth's wastewater regulations several times, clogged sewer lines, and both spilled and pumped blood into a nearby creek (San Antonio Current, June 19, 2003 ). Texas State Rep. Lon Burnam, D-Fort Worth, whose district includes Beltex, and Rep. Toby Goodman, R-Arlington, fought hard against legislation that would have legalized horse slaughter in Texas in 2003.

The horse slaughter plant in DeKalb, IL had a similar pattern. It was destroyed by fire in 2002, and rebuilt in 2004. It was charged and fined by the DeKalb Sanitary District almost every month from the reopening until its closing in 2007 under a new state law for consistently exceeding wastewater discharge guidelines. I can provide you with the documentation of those violations. Like Dallas Crown, Cavel refused to pay their fines for years. 
During this time, I learned that an estimated $5 million in Federal funding was being spent annually to support three foreign-owned horse slaughter plants! And when the Dallas Crown tax records were exposed in the city's legal struggle, we found that they had paid only $5 in federal taxes on a gross income of over $12,000,000!
Moreover, the parent company of Cavel has since moved its operations to Canada and continued to slaughter American horses. In Canada they have apparently become even more blatant, dumping huge untreated piles of entrails onto open ground and even using a tanker truck to discharge blood and refuse into a local river.
I have mentioned only the pollution issue, but this is but one negative aspect of horse slaughter. I have subsequently learned of a USDA document containing 900 pages of graphic photos that show the horrors that the horses were subject to. Behind the privacy fences of these plants, trucks arrived continuously and on those trucks was every form of inhumane violation one can imagine from mares birthing foals to horses with eyes dangling from their sockets and legs ripped from their bodies.
The more I learn about horse slaughter, the more certain I am: There is no justification for horse slaughter in this country. My city was little more than a door mat for a foreign-owned business that drained our resources, thwarted economic development and stigmatized our community. Americans don't eat horses, and we don't raise them for human consumption. There is no justification for spending American tax dollars to support this industry at the expense of Americans and our horses. 
Sincerely,
Former Mayor Paula Bacon

Former Mayor: Horse Slaughterhouses a Drain on Taypayers — Never Mind the Ditches of Blood | Pith in the Wind


The link.


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## greenhorn7

So...pass the problems to countries on our north and south borders??? That doesn't solve the problem. Better legislation and regulation would help both horses and citizens.


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## FIREBLADE

Regulation should be in line first off all but like BP on the oil they just pay there fines and go on about there buisness nothing realy changes.
Big corporations will do what it takes to make money that comes first no matter who or what gets hurt.
I know most people are in uproar about horse slaugher but I have seen a few plants that slaughter cows wow talk about cruelty but there just cows as I was told not my opinion.
But when it comes to Horses everyone gets in an uproar why is that.
I love my Horse and I have no intention of sending it to die in a slaughter house but comming from a country that does do it it was part of life for me.


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## Saddlebag

I'm wondering where you people get your info regarding Canadian slaughter houses. They are closely regulated. If it's so bad, why are you people sending your horses to us. Please do not lump us in with Mexico, get your facts straight first and don't listen to gossip.


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## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> What does expecting someone to be responsible for their animals have to do with whether they go for meat or not?
> 
> I've never understood the logic that those of us who aren't opposed to slaughter are somehow okay with neglect and abuse.
> 
> I believe in the fair treatment and responsible stewardship of _all_ animals, regardless of their ultimate fate.
> 
> How that applies to being a double standard, I have no clue. :?


I am just as confused as you.

Because I like a good burger does that mean it should be OK with me that people might abuse a steer?

I am dumbfounded how anyone can even slightly draw a line that slaughter being OK means abuse is OK.

PS - I think euthanasia because of over population is OK but I do not think abusing cats and dogs is OK.


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## Speed Racer

Exactly right, Always.

I'm _very_ insulted that anyone would think just because I don't oppose equine slaughter, it means I'm all for abusing and neglecting animals. 

Spooky, I like you quite a bit, but you've disappointed me by assuming something that isn't true. I thought you were far too rational and intelligent to believe something like that. I guess I was wrong, and gave you too much credit. :?


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## Speed Racer

Saddlebag said:


> I'm wondering where you people get your info regarding Canadian slaughter houses. They are closely regulated. If it's so bad, why are you people sending your horses to us. Please do not lump us in with Mexico, get your facts straight first and don't listen to gossip.


I have no problem with the Canadian slaughter houses Saddlebag, it's just the longer trips the horses not close to the Canadian border have to make in order to get there. If we still had the plants open here in the US, local horses wouldn't _have_ to travel 3,000 miles.


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## spookychick13

Oh boy.
I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

I should clarify myself a bit, I wanted to be finished with this debate but I feel misunderstood.

If slaughter was done humanely for horses (and cows too!) it would be a different story. I mostly eat free range and organic (yes I know that's sketchy too, but I guess it makes me feel a little better?). 

The videos all over the place of horses getting slaughtered inhumanely is what makes me shocked and appalled. If there was even a 0.1% chance that my horses would end up in a situation like that I wouldn't know what to do. I had no idea that is what slaughter looked like for horses. I HAVE been on a kill floor for cows (I used to work for Manpower back in the day, and hired temps)...and that was enough to stop me from eating any kind of red meat for years, and now I've only delved back into free range.

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart, maybe I'm getting soft, I don't know, but regardless, I can't handle those videos and the thought of that being done to horses (or any other living creature). It makes me sick. I can't imagine that it's just some kind of weird propaganda either, that footage is real. I just don't get it. Those videos deeply disturbed me.

I also can't get my head around the concept of sending a horse I have had for years as a pet/mount/work partner out to slaughter when he/she was no longer useful to me. I understand that it's a financial concern for some people to pay board or to feed a horse that is no longer useful, but I am fully prepared to keep paying board when the time comes to retire my horse. I just think it seems cruel to send an animal that has been with you almost his/her whole life off with strangers and a ton of other frightened horses to be slaughtered. It just doesn't seem right to me.

I feel like I owe it to ALL of my animals to be there with them when it is time to end their suffering.


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## Alwaysbehind

spookychick13 said:


> I feel like I owe it to ALL of my animals to be there with them when it is time to end their suffering.


And that is how I feel about all of my animals too. As does SR I am sure.

That does not make slaughter cruel. It also does not mean that my choice should be imposed on the rest of the world to the detriment of horses that still go to slaughter.


I am sure the videos are real to a point. In other words, yes, a horse/cow/goat/pig/whatever was abused or not treated right or whatever term you would like to use.

There is also a VERY good chance those videos were shot in a place that is not the US. Mexico (for example) has far less restrictions in their slaughter plants. 
You do realize that by making it difficult for slaughter plants to be open in the US the horses that used to be slaughtered here, with pretty tight regulations, are now shipped off to places like Mexico to be slaughtered, don't you?
Slaughter did not end.
People still eat meat. People will continue to eat meat.

If I wanted to twist some logic around (like the animal rights people like to do), it would be far easier for me to say that you (the people who wanted the plants closed in the US) support animal abuse. You are the reason the horses now have to have long trailer rides to another country and suffer in situations where the safeguards are not in place.

Back to the videos.
It is really easy to make anything look the way you want it to look.
A few seconds/minutes of poor treatment can be made into a really impressively long torture video by using slow motion, changing camera angles, etc.

There are bad people in every job.
If (big if) that video was shot here in the US it is an example of that. Not the norm. It is an example of a bad person.
When you get the bad plumber do you insist the whole plumbing industry is evil? If you get a bad vet do you insist the whole vet industry is bad?

You are feeling what the animal rights people want you to feel. You are thinking with emotion instead of with logic and fact.


Tangential thought - a bit back I was dealing with a colic episode with my old man. He wanted nothing more than to collapse to the ground and roll like a fool. We did a good job of not allowing this but every now and again he would manage to trick us into thinking he was going to lay their quietly. Do you know what I had to do to get him up again? Lets just say it was not pretty. It involved a whip and lots of yanking.
If that was video taped and put together (it happened more than once until the meds kicked in) into one video with lovely drama inducing music in the back ground you would be sure with out a doubt I regularly beat my horse for no good reason.


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## Speed Racer

spookychick13 said:


> I also can't get my head around the concept of sending a horse I have had for years as a pet/mount/work partner out to slaughter when he/she was no longer useful to me. I understand that it's a financial concern for some people to pay board or to feed a horse that is no longer useful, but I am fully prepared to keep paying board when the time comes to retire my horse. I just think it seems cruel to send an animal that has been with you almost his/her whole life off with strangers and a ton of other frightened horses to be slaughtered. It just doesn't seem right to me.


I feel the same way, but that doesn't mean I get to impose _my_ opinions on everyone else who thinks they should be able to sell a horse to slaughter without being vilified as an animal hater/abuser.

Nobody is forcing _anyone_ to sell their pet horses to the kill buyers, so I truly have never understood that argument.

If you don't want your own horses going to slaughter, then make sure they're never in a position where it might be a possibility. However, if someone else chooses to sell to a known kill buyer, it's not your right to paint them with the 'evil abuser' brush. You don't know their situation, nor do you know if they consider their horses pets or merely livestock.



spookychick13 said:


> I feel like I owe it to ALL of my animals to be there with them when it is time to end their suffering.


As do I. When I laid my heart horse to rest, I was there with him every second until he was gone. I also didn't consider the matter completely finished until I saw him safely buried the next day. I had his body tarped and stood guard over it all night.

So please, consider what you're saying _before_ you blurt out things that condemn others without knowing the whole story or how they actually feel.

I don't think anyone on this BB is a heartless, cruel person when it comes to animals, but that doesn't mean some of us can't see equine slaughter for what it is; a way to use livestock that otherwise have no purpose.


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## VelvetsAB

spookychick13 said:


> I also can't get my head around the concept of sending a horse I have had for years as a pet/mount/work partner out to slaughter when he/she was no longer useful to me. I understand that it's a financial concern for some people to pay board or to feed a horse that is no longer useful, but I am fully prepared to keep paying board when the time comes to retire my horse. I just think it seems cruel to send an animal that has been with you almost his/her whole life off with strangers and a ton of other frightened horses to be slaughtered. It just doesn't seem right to me.


_Hypothetical situation._

_I own a horse (which we know is the hypothetical). I got laid off this year (true). I now have no money to keep horse, and must sell him, as keeping a roof over my head and food in my stomach is more important. I couldn't find a buyer for him, even though he was priced to sell, so I have to send him through auction, and just hope for the best. Except then the worst happens. The kill buyer picks him up. I cannot undo that, as once the horse is sold, its sold._

_I wanted Dobbin to go to a great home, where he would be useful, but sadly it didn't turn out that way. _

_/hypo situation_

_So just because a horse ends up on the meat truck, does not mean that they were meant to end up there, or that the owner even wanted them there. _


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## spookychick13

Hypothetical situation:
Grandma can't work anymore, she can't afford to keep her house. She is getting dementia and is hard to deal with, she can even be mean.

I can't afford to pay for her to go to a nursing home.
Gee, I sure wish there was a grandmother slaughter house. 

I went to film school, I know about camera tricks, I am not that naive.

I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings or condemn them with my opinion, which is just that, my opinion. If you don't like it, well ... that's life.

In other words, I guess we can just agree to disagree on the situation.
Sorry if you are now disappointed in me or think I am an idiot.


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## Speed Racer

spookychick13 said:


> In other words, I guess we can just agree to disagree on the situation.


Absolutely. 



spookychick13 said:


> Sorry if you are now disappointed in me or think I am an idiot.


Not at all.


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## VelvetsAB

I'm sure some Grandmas would prefer the slaughterhouse over losing their minds, or like mine, having to be on constantly so drugged up, she was out of it the last 5 years of her life. 

I would definitely choose the "Million Dollar Baby" way out, over suffering, or not realizing who I was. Quality over quantity for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

I think we SHOULD euthanize people who have become so old and ill that they have no idea where they are, who they are or any hope of ever recovering. It's a colossal waste of resources to keep these people alive, an enormous burden of healthcare that could be better spent helping the people who DO have hope. Again, human emotion interferes. 

My favorite part is how it's okay to pull life support and let someone starve to death, and yet illegal to give them a lethal injection when they ASK for it. Yeah, really makes a lot of sense.

Attempting to compare horse slaughter to other kinds of death is a moot point for most of the people who believe in slaughter because our beliefs have nothing to do with the actual horse - our beliefs stem from an overall acceptance that death is part of life and not something to be grieved over every time it happens and prevented in every way possible. Oh no, the pretty pony died - look there's six million more! It's a belief based on simple logic, not irrational emotions.


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## spookychick13

I was joking around on the grandma/horse comparison.

I actually liked Dr. Kevorkian, but there is a giant difference between humane euthanasia and slaughter, but let's not go there. 

I wonder how people would react to dog slaughter/eating, etc?
There's millions of those too. Yet somehow dogs transcend livestock to most people.

I somehow missed Million Dollar Baby...I should put that on my Netflix list, I hear nothing but good things about it.


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## Alwaysbehind

spookychick13 said:


> I wonder how people would react to dog slaughter/eating, etc?
> There's millions of those too. Yet somehow dogs transcend livestock to most people.


You have obviously not read this or any of the many other threads on this subject.


Having spent a good quantity of time at an animal shelter, some of that time being the helper for the euthanasia tech I firmly believe that we waste a large quantity of viable meat.

There are cultures that eat cat and dog.

Since we refuse to not breed far more cats and dogs than we have homes for it seems far more responsible to humanely slaughter them for meat than it does to simply euthanize them. 

Why does it sound so much better to you (general you that look like this :shock: at the thought of slaughter) that their dead bodies are tossed in a trash bag with a bunch of other dead bodies and then tossed in a freezer? Kept in that freezer until there are enough dead bodies piled on top of each other to either run the mass crematoria or ship them to a landfill.
Are they any less scared when me, a stranger, lifts them up on to the cold stainless table at an animal shelter while they are injected than they would be if instead of being injected some other humane way was used to end their life?

To me it seems far more noble that their life had a use at the end.


ETA - I do not have any problem with you being against slaughter, etc. That I for sure can agree to disagree with you on since I see no reason to make it my way or the highway like the anti slaughter people do. I do have an issue with you proclaiming that since we are not against slaughter we must be for animal abuse. That I will not agree to disagree on because that is just wrong.


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## spookychick13

I didn't say pro-slaughter was pro-abuse. I was just interested in where the line was. It does look like the way the animal is treated prior to slaughter is pretty awful.

Once an animal is dead, I don't care what happens to the body. Dead is dead. It's the way they are treated prior to and during the life ending process that concerns me.

I knew I should have kept my opinion to myself, I usually do because I hate internet debate. People take everything personally, etc. At least I learned my lesson. *I* didn't personally oppose slaughter in the US, while I might not have liked it, I think this current situation is worse, but hopefully it will be corrected.

I am also sure you are aware that an animal injected with euthanasia solution cannot be eaten (it's not supposed to go to a landfill either, one of the local crematoriums just got sued up the wazoo for that, apparently a bald eagle ate some remains in a landfill...and died).

I've worked in shelters as well, and we still have clients that would prefer to drop their pet off to put down. I try to make it as easy and gentle as possible for the animal, as I am sure you did too. Still, I would prefer a kind stranger to some pi$$ed off minimum wage employee who thought it was funny to miss a few times when trying to hit me with a bolt gun, or sawed away at my spinal cord (Yes I'm sure these were Mexican slaughter houses) while laughing and talking to friends.
As far as eating dogs and cats, YOU might not have a problem with it, but I can promise you that even mentioning it to some of my more frou frou clients would cause fainting or worse.


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## Speed Racer

spookychick13 said:


> Once an animal is dead, I don't care what happens to the body. Dead is dead. It's the way they are treated prior to and during the life ending process that concerns me.


I'm fairly certain everyone feels the same way spooky, regardless of which side of the slaughter issue they happen to fall.

For me, it's all about how they're treated while they're _alive_. Once they're dead, they're just another carcass like every other food animal.


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## spookychick13

I feel that way about people too!
I wish they could just toss me in a pine box and bury me.


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## Alwaysbehind

spookychick13 said:


> It does look like the way the animal is treated prior to slaughter is pretty awful.


It looked pretty horrible how I was treating my old man while he was sick too.
Things taken out of context can be horrible to see.
Considering the videos you are using for reference were put together by people that want you to be horrified it is not shocking that you find them to be horrific.



spookychick13 said:


> Once an animal is dead, I don't care what happens to the body. Dead is dead. It's the way they are treated prior to and during the life ending process that concerns me.


I totally agree. I do not know anyone who does not totally agree.




spookychick13 said:


> I am also sure you are aware that an animal injected with euthanasia solution cannot be eaten (it's not supposed to go to a landfill either, one of the local crematoriums just got sued up the wazoo for that, apparently a bald eagle ate some remains in a landfill...and died).


Yes, well aware of that fact. I stated in my post that cats and dogs would be killed some other way. You must have missed that line.

Carcasses do go to landfills now. Landfills are not just big open pits of trash. At least not modern landfills. (That is why the commercials about stuff 'getting in my drinking water' make me laugh.)
Trash is dumped and buried, dumped and buried, dumped and buried. It is a constant process of dirt being put over and mixed in. 

The shelter I am talking about has a huge crematorium. They fill a truly huge freezer and then do a mass cremation.

I only know about the landfill taking carcasses now because a bit back a friend lost their horse and we learned that there is no local rendering company anymore. One of the options was to have the body picked up and taken to the landfill.



spookychick13 said:


> Still, I would prefer a kind stranger to some pi$$ed off minimum wage employee ...


Most of the employees at the shelter make minimum wage or are there because they are doing community service.
Just saying.



spookychick13 said:


> As far as eating dogs and cats, YOU might not have a problem with it, but I can promise you that even mentioning it to some of my more frou frou clients would cause fainting or worse.


Those same clients probably ignore the fact that the shelters euthanize large quantities of cats and dogs every year. 
To them it is a none issue.





spookychick13 said:


> I didn't say pro-slaughter was pro-abuse.


Then what did you mean by these comments?



spookychick13 said:


> I just find it interesting that some of the people who are pro-slaughter on this thread will jump right down the throat of someone who is doing something that might be considered neglect or abuse.
> 
> Double standards apply.
> 
> My personal opinion is that some people can justify anything to assuage guilt.


----------



## DrumRunner

I'm sorry but I just couldn't do it, I couldn't send my either of my horses to a landfill. Mine will be buried on my land and marked. I know that's not an option for alot of people out there but When my sister's pony died a few years ago (at age 36) We dug a big hole with a track hoe and buried her. My sister couldn't handle seeing the bulldozer push her into the hole because it started tearing at her skin so we stopped it and She and I pushed the pony into the hole and climbed down and put a shirt around her face.. Call me crazy or sentimental but I just can't do it. I know it's just a carcass and it's kinda stupid for me to be like that but seeing Holly's pony pushed around made me change my mind about dumping them in a landfill..


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## Speed Racer

spookychick13 said:


> I feel that way about people too!
> I wish they could just toss me in a pine box and bury me.


My father was cremated because he always said he couldn't see taking up a huge burial space; said it was a tremendous waste of usable land. My mother will be cremated when her times comes too, and they'll be buried in one small plot together.

I plan to donate my body to science, and they'll either cremate it and give it to my family, or will bury it somewhere. I won't care, since I'll be long gone and it's just a carcass.


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## Alwaysbehind

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

That friend actually paid the fees to have the body trucked to a mass pet burial site. 


I plan on composting mine. http://compost.css.cornell.edu/naturalrenderingFS.pdf


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## Celeste

Speed Racer said:


> I have no problem with the Canadian slaughter houses Saddlebag, it's just the longer trips the horses not close to the Canadian border have to make in order to get there. If we still had the plants open here in the US, local horses wouldn't _have_ to travel 3,000 miles.


 
My horses live love at least 2000 miles from Wyoming. 
It is probably a bit closer to the Canadian border........


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## Speed Racer

Celeste said:


> My horses live at least 2000 miles from Wyoming.
> It is probably a bit closer to the Canadian border........


Of _course_ some horses are going to be closer to Canada even if/when the US slaughter houses are reopened. I don't see the Canadian plants shutting down, since there will be plenty of horses close enough to them to make it easier and more humane for the animals to be sent there than anywhere else.


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## Alwaysbehind

What SR said. The Canadian plants near the border did not just open when ours closed.


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## spookychick13

My point was (and I realize you think those videos I was talking about are propaganda) that the exposure to slaughter I had made it seem like abuse. I should have clarified. I just knew what I saw at that point. I am sorry you took that so personally. The videos made me sick and reactive. Yes I *AM* emotional about the issue. Who wants to see that kind of thing happening? I was just surprised that more people didn't think that it was horrible.


Maybe things are different in WI, but I don't think that they hire minimum wage employees. One of my close friends who used to work here is now at our biggest shelter. She makes a whole heck of a lot more money than I do and mostly spends the day doing euths.

As far as people freaking out about dead bodies, you'd be surprised. I get 'what happens to the body?' pretty frequently, and people get genuinely upset about them being in a freezer. Not sure what they expect.


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## spookychick13

I like the composting idea!

That is pretty awesome.


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## Alwaysbehind

I find the propaganda videos very disgusting, actually. I really can not imagine anyone would feel differently.

They are sad and horrible and just plain yucky (how is that for a highly technical word).

Thankfully I know that most slaughter is not done that way. 



Yeah, I learned about the composting one year at Farm Days. They had a pile that months earlier they had put a few critters in to compost. 
We were allowed to dig in the pile to see what was left. 
Bones. Some hair but mainly just bones.

My farrier would like a lower leg or two pre-composting and I have agreed that if he is willing to do the removal in a timely manner (with out my help, eek) he is welcome to them. Dead horses do not need hooves. 

I am hoping that after composting I can recover the skull. 




Around here a good percentage of the staff at the shelter is minimum wage. The higher up staff is paid well. There is also a vet staff now so they are probably paid well. 
(Now the euthanasia is done by the vet staff too. Back when I helped it was just an hourly employee who took a course and was certified to do euthanasia.)
I am just saying the people who handle the animals most of the time are minimum wage people. The people who feed and clean kennels are community service workers and the people who walk the dogs are volunteers.


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## jannette

sometimes i think i live in a cave lol...i did not know that some cultures, people whatever even ate horses :? in the states, well the part i live in it has only been talked about in survival stories...again i dont get out much just never new...we dont even have a slaughter facility around its my understanding everything has to be shipped to canada...not that i think that's ok just sayin..


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## Celeste

Some people eat horses, armadillos, goats, rabbits, rattlesnakes, and/or guinea pigs. I don't think it would make one fit in with the upper crust of society to serve such to company, at least not in the south...........


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## DrumRunner

<< Also from the south, as you know.. 

We "fit in" just fine and serve deer, rabbit, dove, squirrel, wild hog, rattlesnake, alligator, and more to company. My family hunts we eat what we kill, Celeste. Don't try to stereotype the "south" by pointing out your opinion. You don't speak for everyone and your expert knowledge of the "south" is false. My opinion is, if you don't agree with serving these things at your house fine, but don't tell me I don't fit in with the "upper crust of society" because I chose to hunt and eat the things I do.


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## Celeste

I don't care if you eat wild game. 
Just don't eat my horse.


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## spirithorse8

*Reality Check*

If one is sincere about the health and welfare of horses, one must realize that all the unwanted horses cannot be taken care of through rescue and adoption programs.

That means there must be in place a HUMANE program for the transportation of and slaughter of unwanted horses.


https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petition...-jobs/2QtJRrxY


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## kevinshorses

Celeste said:


> I don't care if you eat wild game.
> Just don't eat my horse.


I don't care if you don't want to eat your horse but don't tell me what to do with mine.


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## Celeste

kevinshorses said:


> I don't care if you don't want to eat your horse but don't tell me what to do with mine.


Kevin, I've had horses like that too..............


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