# Trying to bite me when I mount



## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Also - it's not a pain issue.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't have any advice other than what you did. I am interested to hear that it was successful becasue I have a friend whose horse is cinch sour.
There was another thread about biting which was really interesting. I know that some horses will only get more into it if you hit back at them (or have them "run into" your elbow). It's almost like they are bored and get a kick out of engaging you in a sort of game. They can get meaner and meaner. I know I have smacked back at several horses who bit at me. I should try your method. I think it will be better at changing the mental attitude that creates the urge to bite anyway.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I don't have any advice other than what you did. I am interested to hear that it was successful becasue I have a friend whose horse is cinch sour.
> There was another thread about biting which was really interesting. I know that some horses will only get more into it if you hit back at them (or have them "run into" your elbow). It's almost like they are bored and get a kick out of engaging you in a sort of game. They can get meaner and meaner. I know I have smacked back at several horses who bit at me. I should try your method. I think it will be better at changing the mental attitude that creates the urge to bite anyway.


It seemed to work but I wasn't sure if anyone had any other suggestions. What I ended up doing was taking off his bridle and haltering him, getting a long lead, and I would pretend I was getting on (reach for the saddle, bend my leg, etc) and whenever he cocked an attitude, I swung the lead at his bum and send him running, only for a few steps with his neck bent toward me, and then walked back over to him and tried again. It worked the first time I tried it. Then I had to leave him for a moment because some of the horses got into the grain roll: fatties) and when I came back, I did the same exercise, and he was being aggressive again. Sent him off, returned his aggression (without smacking him or hitting him) and he was fine. Unless I get some other good suggestions on here, that's what I'm gonna keep doing until he learns human = dominant. Smacking him on the face when he turned to bite me was pointless ! Lol


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I think the thread you saw may have been mine, which I still haven't fixed. The only piece of advice I can offer with biting problems is that whacking them will either fix the problem or make them faster, which is where I'm hung up because for the first time in my life I have horse who got faster rather than just stopping.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

You can take your right rein and bring his head around a bit, so he can't reach you; eventually he won't even try, because he just can't reach. Others will bring the left rein around. Essentially just ignoring the 'attempts'. 

The thing that you did with making him move his feet would work as well; though that's usually my tactic for getting a horse to stand still. With a horse that wants to bite as I'm getting on, I may work his tail off for a bit before going to mount, and then simply work on mounting...put foot up to stirrup, and retreat...walk horse away from 'mounting spot', repeating...basically retraining his mind, to NOT anticipate the mounting, because he doesn't know when it's going to happen. 

I do that alot with horses I train, whether they nip or not, and whether they stand nice or not...I don't ever want a horse anticipating when I'm getting on, and deciding it's a good time to take a bite out of me, or walking off as soon as I go to swing my leg over. Now I'm not saying one has to mount and dismount 50 times per session, but don't just get on, ride, get off...engage the horse's mind, during every aspect of the time you handle him. 

My mare likes to get 'over eager' every once in a while, when I go to get on, so we will sometimes spend 5-10 minutes walking up to the block, sending back and forth while I'm on it, halting next to it, then backing away, etc...I'll figit with her tack and what not, may get on, and get back off, etc, and start over...she stands like a rock, no matter how long I have her set there, even once mounted, as a result. 

One thing I also don't do, is get on and immediately send a horse forward; I might do a bunch of flexing laterally, and some backing, hip and shoulder yielding, etc...but I don't just get on and "GO"...that helps alot with anticipatory responses as well, as they really don't know when to expect your forward cue.


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## nate1 (Jul 4, 2009)

are you sure it's not a pain issue? have you looked at your tack it may have something rubbing/pinching him I don't really believe in Chiropracters but some people do... have you had his back looked at his back may be out of alignment.. I would think that he is biting for a reason and if you can figure the reason out then you should be able to stop it


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## Crickett (Nov 4, 2010)

Is this your own horse you're riding, a lesson horse, or ????

I'm with Nate on this one. Also might want to have a vet check done, see if there isn't a kidney problem. It could be something you're doing. :?::?::?: He's trying to tell you something, you just have to figure out what it is, and then fix it.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks guys - problem is resolving with the make-his-feet-move method. Went out today and he pinned his ears, not trying to bite this time, just copped an attitude. Got his feet moving and tried to get on him again - he didn't twitch a muscle. Rode him for a short time, got off, tied him up, and came back. Went to mount - not a problem.

He is my horse; I just brought him in last Saturday. He's an older thoroughbred. He almost acts like a sour old lesson horse. He's very pokey, and kind of boring under saddle. Was gonna train him to be a kids horse for 4h or something, but I think he would enjoy trails with me much more :]

Edit: And yes, I'm sure it's not a pain issue. Tack is fine, his back is fine, everything is fine. That was already considered before I even posted, which is why I said "No, it's not a pain issue" because I didn't want to have to explain it (since I knew that's what people would immediately say/ask, and I wouldn't get any advice). Crickett - I actually thought about that! I thought it was far-fetched, and my friend looked at me funny when I asked the horse, "Is it your kidneys? Are ya passin a kidney stone, you old fart?" Haha.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

I personally don't like the punishment tactic for this sort of thing, as it is generally a pain issue, or otherwise related to inconsiderate, rude or novice handling. That is to say, the horse is trying to tell, then attempting to punish the rider for what he's having to put up with. 

**Not assuming any of that is necessarily your doing, or even a current problem BTW. Perhaps he had badly fitting tack or an inconsiderate handler who reefed the girth up or some such in his past. But I think why I still thought pain a possibility and others asked despite you saying it wasn't, is that it is so common for 'bad' behaviour to be pain related and so common for people not to see it, or to check the horse out incompletely... or even pay good money for 'experts'(such as professional saddle fitters) who don't have a clue themselves. So perhaps you can tell us what you have done to rule out pain? 

Also have you considered that he's OK aside from the act of mounting, particularly if you're mounting from the ground? It can be uncomfortable for any horse to be mounted from the ground & depending on the saddle, your skill(or lack of) at bouncing up, your weight, etc, it can be very hard on them.

Punishing him and forcing him to put up with it is not fair IMO, let alone potentially just leads to worse, more reactive behaviour from the horse. At best, used alone without actually 'retraining', punishment is generally only temporary too, and each time the horse tries again, it will take harsher punishment to make him think twice. 

I would instead try to get him confident & comfortable with the situation, using gradual approach & retreat tactics and positive reinforcement(rewards) for any 'good' behaviour. In that manner I would change his attitude & therefore behaviour towards being saddled/mounted/ridden & make it worth his while to 'be good', rather than just the lesser punishment.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Loosie - I get what you're saying, but, the problem has resolved. He was being sour and copping an attitude - nothing more, nothing less. All I did was assert my dominance, and he no longer shows any attitude. It was the first time I'd ridden him since I got him.


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

Smacking him in the face would have been punishment. What you did was NOT punishment, it was him learning to respect you as his leader...or you making it hard to do the wrong thing and easy to do the right thing. There's more than one way to do that but it worked, so I'd say you did the right thing!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Amlalriiee said:


> Smacking him in the face would have been punishment. What you did was NOT punishment, it was him learning to respect you as his leader...or you making it hard to do the wrong thing and easy to do the right thing. There's more than one way to do that but it worked, so I'd say you did the right thing!


It seems that you don't understand what punishment is. As far as behavioural effect and what you'd call it, there is no difference between smacking a horse in the face or 'popping' him on the chin or 'kicking like a mare'. Or for that matter, making the horse 'work' when he does 'wrong'. Don't get why you call one punishment & not the others? The term 'respect' and 'dominance' & the attitudes about 'getting it' are very subjective too. 

So for future reference... 
Positive punishment(+P) is ADDING something UNDESIRABLE('bad' consequence) at the time of a behaviour in order to WEAKEN it. Eg. any of the consequences OP tried.
Negative Punishment(-P) is TAKING AWAY something DESIRABLE('bad' consequence) at the time of a behaviour in order to weaken it. Eg. removing food, freedom, etc.

So that's how you weaken unwanted behaviours, and to make wanted behaviours stronger...

Positive Reinforcement(+R) is ADDING something DESIRABLE('good' consequence) at the time of a behaviour in order to STRENGTHEN it. Eg. Treats, a good scratchie, etc.
Negative Reinforcement(-R) is TAKING AWAY something UNDESIRABLE(good consequence) at the time of a behaviour in order to strengthen it. Eg. removal of pressure, quitting 'work', giving freedom, etc.

Anyway, as OP said, she thinks it's resolved, and also appears to understand that punishment is possibly a temporary 'fix' so she's probably already working with other tactics too, to prevent the 'weakened' behaviour reoccurring. 

BTW, I don't just disagree with punishment regardless - I think it has it's place, but I reckon it's important to understand the principles that govern it, so you know when it's appropriate or not and what the 'side effects' are likely to be. I just gave my opinion that I personally wouldn't use punishment in this situation, but would just work on changing his attitude, rather than him just 'copping an attitude' from me.


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

Actually, I do understand + and - punishment and reinforcement, as a psych minor and behavioral health professional I can't help but having heard those terms 500,000 times. However, I didn't really think we were speaking in psychological terms here. As far as the situation she was in and speaking of punishment in the traditional sense rather than the psychological sense, it is NOT punishment because it is not "you are BAD here is your CONSEQUENCE" is is simply shaping behavior by using the animals natural instincts. It's "If you don't want me on you, ok, but your feet will be moving." I see that as very different from the traditional sense of the word "punishment" It's more of a deal, and an understanding...planned actions rather than angry REactions....perhaps I didn't read your post as carefully, and maybe you specified that you meant "punishment" in psychological terms. If so, sorry for the oversight...if not, then you probably understand what I mean now?


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

haha I love semantics...

I forgot to add that I actually would see her method as negative reinforcement since she's making him move until he doesn't bite, and then the unwanted work is taken away....?


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

loosie said:


> It seems that you don't understand what punishment is. As far as behavioural effect and what you'd call it, there is no difference between smacking a horse in the face or 'popping' him on the chin or 'kicking like a mare'. Or for that matter, making the horse 'work' when he does 'wrong'. Don't get why you call one punishment & not the others? The term 'respect' and 'dominance' & the attitudes about 'getting it' are very subjective too.
> 
> So for future reference...
> Positive punishment(+P) is ADDING something UNDESIRABLE('bad' consequence) at the time of a behaviour in order to WEAKEN it. Eg. any of the consequences OP tried.
> ...


Are you saying you don't think my method will work for very long? That pretty soon, he'll be back to pinning his ears and trying to bite?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Amlalriiee said:


> As far as the situation she was in and speaking of punishment in the traditional sense rather than the psychological sense, it is NOT punishment because it is not "you are BAD here is your CONSEQUENCE"


Oh OK, yes, semantics I guess it is then! Glad you enjoy it then, as I'm sure it's just pedantics for some!!:wink: I definitely was talking in behavioural/shaping terms, as that is just the proper definition of punishment, whereas it sounds that 'angry reactions', what you are calling 'traditional' is what I would consider just emotional retribution without understanding:wink:.... Although as you have put it above, regardless of what the punishment was - moving feet, smacking, 'popping', etc - I don't get why you perceive it is not still a case of 'you are bad(wrong, mistaken, incorrect, whatever) and this is the consequence.'




> I forgot to add that I actually would see her method as negative reinforcement since she's making him move until he doesn't bite, and then the unwanted work is taken away....?


The way I understood it, she was making him move or whatever *because* he was pinning his ears/threatening. If she were *only* doing this *at the time of* his threatening behaviour & quitting the instant he quit, yes, this would be -R, but it is also +P that happens before the -R. Getting even more pedantic, in the strictest sense, you can't really have -R if you don't have +P to start with. Eg. the pressure in the first place, to motivate the horse to do the 'right' thing when it's removed. 

On that note, we could also consider that the horse is perceiving the attempt to mount as a punishment, and that is being negatively reinforced because I'm gathering that as soon as he pins his ears, she removes her foot from the stirrup. I would personally be endevouring to work gradually & positively enough that I would be able to keep up whatever stage of mounting I was up to until he offered 'good' behaviour, at which time I'd -R him by removing my foot & backing off.




> Are you saying you don't think my method will work for very long? That pretty soon, he'll be back to pinning his ears and trying to bite?


Yes, I'm saying it's *quite probably* only temporary, depending on the horse, the situation, his previous experience, etc. Got the idea you understood this from I think it was the original post. Punishment *weakens* behaviour, it depends whether there's much motivation for the behaviour and how big the punishment as to whether it may actually stop it totally or not. That's why regardless of whether you use punishment, it's a good idea to also use other tactics to change the *motivation & attitude* behind it. I tend to use punishment as an 'emergency plug' while I train better behaviour.
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http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=810588#ixzz14r5Y60uw​


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't think of me making him move his feet as punishment. Since horses don't understand punishment, things like smacking him under the chin just make him momentarily uncomfortable, and make him turn his head. A temp fix. Which is why I did it twice, and then rolled my eyes at my own ignorance. By showing him I'm the leader and earning his respect, the problem is gone and not even bubbling at the surface. He hasn't tried it since, or even acted like he wants to. After our first ride I think he realized "Hey, this ain't so bad." So yes, maybe a past experience made him sour to the saddle. I don't know, and will never know.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Snookeys said:


> Are you saying you don't think my method will work for very long? That pretty soon, he'll be back to pinning his ears and trying to bite?


I think it will work just fine.

If you just got this horse, he very likely had poor fitting tack or as a lesson horse was poked with toes, had riders haul themselves up and plop on his back. His attempting to bite was developed in response to the poor manners he was treated with. Or perhaps he was smart enough to intimidate the students into not mounting?

Sorry Loosie - I have taught more than one horse to stand and or not bite while being mounted by the good old boot to the belly trick. It's not punishment. It's establishing to the horse that in the herd of him and me, I am the leader.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

mls said:


> I think it will work just fine.
> 
> If you just got this horse, he very likely had poor fitting tack or as a lesson horse was poked with toes, had riders haul themselves up and plop on his back. His attempting to bite was developed in response to the poor manners he was treated with. Or perhaps he was smart enough to intimidate the students into not mounting?
> 
> Sorry Loosie - I have taught more than one horse to stand and or not bite while being mounted by the good old boot to the belly trick. It's not punishment. It's establishing to the horse that in the herd of him and me, I am the leader.


Oh he wasn't a lesson horse, he was sitting in a field doing nothing when I got him haha. I just used it as an example.  Thanks!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mls said:


> Sorry Loosie - I have taught more than one horse to stand and or not bite while being mounted by the good old boot to the belly trick. It's not punishment. It's establishing to the horse that in the herd of him and me, I am the leader.


Like I said, I generally disagree with using this sort of treatment in this situation personally, but I never said it wouldn't work. Just that depending on other factors & training, it *may well* be a temporary fix. 

A 'good old':? boot to the belly may help 'establish' your leadership, but it IS DEFINITELY punishment & I don't get why you're debating that? Perhaps like Amlalriiee you perceive punishment is only what is done in anger without thought? Perhaps it's the general definition in your area? It is simply any 'bad' consequence that happens when the horse has offered you unwanted behaviour. Done *properly & appropriately*, I don't think punishment is any less effective or understood as for any other species, Snooky. Just as discussed with Amlal, many people use it badly and don't understand it's limitations & possible problems.


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

All very good points loosie, while we may differ in opinion on things I like your way of explaining yourself instead of lashing out  I do love semantics....AND pedantics for that matter!


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## Amlalriiee (Feb 22, 2010)

Alright, here goes: I was too tired last night to respond properly. I do agree with your suggestion of removing the foot or the attempt to mount as soon as the horse relaxes/stops trying to bite/etc. That's what I do with my horse on things like tacking up if she acts up. I will hold the saddle up to her until her ears go forward and she ignores it, then take it away. YES, it does make perfect sense.

However, I wouldn't say that what the OP is doing is wrong either. I think there are definitely many ways to achieve the same goal. I think it will work, wouldn't be the FIRST thing I'd try, because of my horse's personality, but it's by no means cruel. It's actually along the lines of Clinton Anderson in that his whole training philosophy is to communicate as horses would with one another and to make it MORE comfortable to do the right thing than the wrong thing. In order to assert themselves in a herd, horses make each others' feet move, so that is actually a good tactic to use. 

I see what you mean about how it is still reacting to the horse being "bad", but I guess I was looking at it in that you're not hurting the horse in any way, you're not saying "if you're bad I'll hurt you". You're simply saying that biting is not okay...and certainly it isn't. I could even see the boot to belly thing working depending on the horse, because it's just like in a herd when they get bit back. Not something I'd do with my horse but I can see it working with some.

Anyway, I think it is largely dependent on the specifics of the horse you're working with. Whether they're pretending/trying to bite or if they're actually biting. What do they do when they CAN reach you to bite? I mean...don't offer a finger but just observe. When my mare did this, she never actually bit me...even if I was a few inches away. Anyway, it's all about the individual horse I think. Not that ABUSE is ever okay, but different degrees of REASONABLE and MEANINGFUL reinforcement/punishment, depending on the horse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

loosie said:


> Like I said, I generally disagree with using this sort of treatment in this situation personally, but I never said it wouldn't work. Just that depending on other factors & training, it *may well* be a temporary fix.
> 
> A 'good old':? boot to the belly may help 'establish' your leadership, but it IS DEFINITELY punishment & I don't get why you're debating that? Perhaps like Amlalriiee you perceive punishment is only what is done in anger without thought? Perhaps it's the general definition in your area?


Well - if temporary is going on two years (in one particular horses case), yep then it's just a temporary fix!

I weigh 1/10th of most of the horses I work with. My boot in their belly is an attention getter. When you tap someone on the shoulder - is that punishment?


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## Cowboy Ken (Oct 28, 2010)

Black and White, keep it Black and White!
this is a good thread.
My guy likes to toss his head my way as I am tacking him up
and he runs into my elbow every time now!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree completely & totally with your last post Amlalriiee. You put it very well:wink:. 

To be sure, I wasn't saying OP was doing the wrong thing either, just that (depending on specifics) it could well be perceived by the horse as -R when she removed her foot..... which may also have been fine too for that matter, but I think it's helpful to understand the principles of everything you do, so you can understand better what messages you may be giving to your horse at all times. That's why I may appear to get carried away with 'semantics' & 'pedantics'!:lol: Just trying to explain the psychological differences between 'methods'.



mls said:


> Well - if temporary is going on two years (in one particular horses case), yep then it's just a temporary fix!


Please re-read what I said, if you don't get what I was getting at with the possibility of punishment being temporary. Or better still(& likely clearer than my convoluted thoughts:?), do a bit of study into behavioural psychology, to learn it's limitations & possible 'side effects', _how_ it works.

[/quote]I weigh 1/10th of most of the horses I work with. My boot in their belly is an attention getter. When you tap someone on the shoulder - is that punishment?[/QUOTE]

Well to get particular, of course it's not *usually* perceived as a punishment to tap someone on the shoulder, but to really consider it, depending on the situation, person, etc, it certainly could well be. Again, I'm discussing principles, not wishing to be judging specific situations(of which I don't feel I'd have the right, with only a few words to go on anyway), but I did perceive your words of 'boot to the belly' to mean something a lot stronger than an attention getting tap. 




> My guy likes to toss his head my way as I am tacking him up
> and he runs into my elbow every time now!


Yes! When I do choose to use punishment, if it is a situation that can be planned for like that, I think that's a great way to use it, because it is more of a 'self punishment' to *himself*, rather than being perceived as *you* paying out on the horse(he was silly enough to run into your elbow). It also means the punishment happens in perfect timing - at the time of the 'bad' behaviour, rather than after it's happened, which means it's far more likely to be associated with that particular behaviour.
http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=812590#ixzz151UgtzcL​


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