# Feedback on Western position?



## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

My daughter is taking English lessons, but also gets a chance to ride Western saddle at the place where she volunteers. She doesn't get much / any instruction there. 

She got to participate in their fun show today. This pony is new to the stables, and she was told not to insist if the pony didn't want to do the cup picking activity. 

My daughter would like to ask you guys for any tips on her Western position. She was told that she's "Riding English in a Western saddle" but she didn't receive any other feedback on how to improve. 

Thanks!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

That video is set to private...


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Wallaby said:


> That video is set to private...


I just fixed that. I hope.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That little girl is a natural! I would not want her to feel bad about her seat, because she has a dandy little English seat. She rides better than many adults. She sits up pretty nicely, stays centered laterally very well, has a nicely following hand, look up and has a steady lower leg. 

The only thing I can see is that due to being a bit far forward, (maybe sitting on her peepee a bit too much) she has lost some of her strength. ON a pony like that, and her being a wee thing like she is, she needs the strength that comes from her core. She can only access this by sitting up really straight, not tipping forward, engaging the core muscles, (a bit like pushing a BM out), and not letting the pony tip her forward with a yank on the rein.

Honestly, she has the makings of a really good rider!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, that's a very forward little pony, isn't it? LOL. They make an adorable pair.

I see what those other folks meant by "riding english in a western saddle". That basically means that she has her stirrups up relatively short and she's actually riding with proper position. Most western riders have some level of chair seat, ranging from slight to severe. Whether that's a good thing or not is a constant subject of debate:lol:.

I really don't see anything wrong with her position. The thing about western riding, unless she plans to show in western horsemanship classes, then the proper position for her will be the one that she's most comfortable and most secure with.

And truthfully? If she plans to primarily ride english and just do western more for fun, I wouldn't go about trying to change her position. If she was taught this early in the game to adopt a more "western" position, then her proper english position would suffer.

She sits a horse well and she looked good riding a pony that doesn't appear to be very easy to ride :wink:.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

No time for a long post, which is probably a good thing...but I often ride 'English' in a western saddle. Most horses won't care, but here are a few differences I've found that SOME horses notice:

1 - Speed. Lots of western horses are used to someone riding "on their jeans pockets", and interpret a more forward seat as "he wants to go faster".

2 - Leg contact. With my western saddle, my lower leg contacts the horse when cuing. Many western riders - not all - only use lower leg contact for cueing the horse. Two of my horses interpreted having the leg wrapped more around the horse as "go faster" or "why won't he stop bugging me". Once they got used to it, they just think, "It is bsms...that is how he rides...don't worry". My mare, OTOH, prefers it.

3 - Reins. As a ROT, most western riders use the reins for cueing and have slack in them the rest of the time. English riders tend to want the horse 'on the bit' and have light contact all the time. I often ride with slack reins attached to a rope sidepull halter, which is more western. Some horses get irritated if a rider tries to keep contact, since they feel it is unneeded messing with their mouth. My mare prefers it most of the time.

The pictures below are of an older style of western riding (think 1900), but it may make some of the differences more obvious:








​


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> That little girl is a natural! I would not want her to feel bad about her seat, because she has a dandy little English seat. She rides better than many adults. She sits up pretty nicely, stays centered laterally very well, has a nicely following hand, look up and has a steady lower leg.
> 
> The only thing I can see is that due to being a bit far forward, (maybe sitting on her peepee a bit too much) she has lost some of her strength. ON a pony like that, and her being a wee thing like she is, she needs the strength that comes from her core. She can only access this by sitting up really straight, not tipping forward, engaging the core muscles, (a bit like pushing a BM out), and not letting the pony tip her forward with a yank on the rein.
> 
> Honestly, she has the makings of a really good rider!


Thank you! So are you saying she can ride in a Western saddle while keeping in mind what she's been learning in her English lessons and it won't make her position acceptable for the Western style? That's a reassuring.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Well, that's a very forward little pony, isn't it? LOL. They make an adorable pair.


Thanks! What exactly is meant by "a forward pony"? 



> I see what those other folks meant by "riding english in a western saddle". That basically means that she has her stirrups up relatively short and she's actually riding with proper position. Most western riders have some level of chair seat, ranging from slight to severe. Whether that's a good thing or not is a constant subject of debate:lol:.


The stirrups weren't even up to her, her Western place set them up. 




> I really don't see anything wrong with her position. The thing about western riding, unless she plans to show in western horsemanship classes, then the proper position for her will be the one that she's most comfortable and most secure with.


That's great. She doesn't plan on showing western. Though someone told her at one point, that really good English riders become really good Western riders, and can ride both. Is there any truth to this? 

She was expecting a stellar transition, and was a bit disappointed that she didn't magically transform into a great western rider after taking some English lessons. I reminded her that first of all, she wasn't (yet) a great English rider, but still a novice, and second of all, such a transition would still require proper instruction. She does want to ride both "well."




> And truthfully? If she plans to primarily ride english and just do western more for fun, I wouldn't go about trying to change her position. If she was taught this early in the game to adopt a more "western" position, then her proper english position would suffer.


 
That's her plan for now. I also wondered whether changing her position from saddle to saddle would interfere with her form at this stage. I remember when I played tennis at her age, my coach wouldn't allow us to play table tennis or badminton, as not to ruin our technique. 



> She sits a horse well and she looked good riding a pony that doesn't appear to be very easy to ride :wink:.


When my husband watched the video of her riding, he said, "Wow, she can get the horse walking sideways so well!" :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

A forward pony is a pony that is very forward moving, they move at a pretty good speed and are easy to get going, as opposed to a lazy or sluggish horse.

There's nothing _wrong_ with her stirrup length, I actually prefer shorter stirrups myself, but standard western riding has the stirrups longer, where the leg is almost just hanging off the side with very little contact in the stirrups.

A good rider is a good rider, regardless of discipline. However, english riders who have had proper instruction almost always have more proper "position" than western riders; their feet are under their hips where they should be instead of slung out in front of their body.

She has a ton of potential so tell her not to get discouraged or disappointed in herself, it will just take time and I can already see that she's going to be one heck of a good rider when she has a bit more experience. Changing tack can be very difficult; I bought an english saddle for the heck of it when I was a teenager and even though I had been riding all my life and was a very good western rider, I felt and looked completely unbalanced and almost out of control in that english saddle.

She's already a very good rider for her experience level. She'll be a great one soon enough :wink:.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you! These are more in depth differences, than the position, right? Something that she can get better with experience? 

Is it something that one can fairly easily adjust on a horse by horse basis (with experience)?

The photos do really show a difference in position. According to the quote in your siggy: would this also mean that if she's more comfortable sitting "English", that would be okay as well? 




bsms said:


> No time for a long post, which is probably a good thing...but I often ride 'English' in a western saddle. Most horses won't care, but here are a few differences I've found that SOME horses notice:
> 
> 1 - Speed. Lots of western horses are used to someone riding "on their jeans pockets", and interpret a more forward seat as "he wants to go faster".
> 
> ...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, yes, there are a lot more differences that are less obvious than just position and, like you said, they will come with time. Once a person can ride a horse well and has experience with both disciplines, it should be relatively easy to adjust her riding style to whatever discipline she's riding at that particular moment. Like all things, it just takes practice.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

smrobs said:


> A forward pony is a pony that is very forward moving, they move at a pretty good speed and are easy to get going, as opposed to a lazy or sluggish horse.
> 
> There's nothing _wrong_ with her stirrup length, I actually prefer shorter stirrups myself, but standard western riding has the stirrups longer, where the leg is almost just hanging off the side with very little contact in the stirrups.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will talk to her about not worrying about "proper western" position for now, and just focusing on what she's being taught in her lessons. 

Thank you for telling me that she is a good rider for her level. Although I'm incredibly proud of her for getting out there and doing the fun shows, especially as she gets very nervous in front of people (she did one English last week as well), it is hard for me to judge how well she's actually doing. I even thought that she got her ribbons because she was either the youngest, or maybe the barn owner's favorite--she was 3rd out of 5 in the Western show, and I was sure she'd be last. :lol: But I guess maybe she is not doing so poorly.  For her first show last week I even got her a consolation / encouragement prize, in case she came last in everything, but she did really well.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

_"According to the quote in your siggy: would this also mean that if she's more comfortable sitting "English", that would be okay as well"_​ 
Exactly! 

I started English, switched to Australian, went to western, and have now pretty much settled on Australian. But how I feel comfortable is kind of a stew. For most riding, I'm happiest riding with a forward seat, although with a very long stirrup compared to most English riders. I like having my leg sort of wrapped around the horse, and not just hanging down from the side. But when my mare gets nervous, I switch to a position very much like a 1910 cowboy - and she calms down quickly. I don't know why, but she does - so I do it that way. For going fast, all of my horses prefer a forward seat.

But two of my horses neck rein, and only the mare likes some contact with the bit. And she only likes contact when she is feeling nervous...which for her is about 50% of the time. That is a work in progress...

She looks like she has talent for riding English, so why not? However, when she is older and has her primary riding style down solid, she might want to trying riding in a more traditional western style, just to see & appreciate the differences.

I took western lessons all last summer. This summer, I expect to work with my mare on becoming a trail horse. Next summer, I'd like to take lessons in jumping.

When someone only rides one style, it becomes easy to become a style snob and look down on others. But those who have ridden some miles in the other person's saddle, so to speak, usually learn to respect ALL of their fellow riders. But your daughter is young, so let her get solid in the style she is using now. It is A-OK to ride a western saddle & western horse that way. Just be aware that some western trained horses will be kind of fast when ridden like that.


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

I ride both western and english,(and english in a western saddle and western in an english saddle, and bareback, etc) and you've been given some very good information. The one thing I thought might help you is to describe it this way. In English riding, the rider always looks like they are riding the horse, controlling the movement, etc. The rider is very 'alert' and 'in charge' looking.

In western riding it should look more like the rider is relaxed and just along for the ride (I said LOOK like that, in reality, the rider should still be controlling the movement, have good posture,etc.). 

That kind of 'look' will be easier for her when she has more experience overall, and there's really no reason to learn it now if she's enjoying English. Remind her that its better to learn to do the one thing well before you move on to another, that way she can focus on each, in turn, and do well at both, rather than just ok at both.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you. I really appreciate your thorough responses! 



bsms said:


> _"According to the quote in your siggy: would this also mean that if she's more comfortable sitting "English", that would be okay as well"_​
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> ...


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

calicokatt said:


> I ride both western and english,(and english in a western saddle and western in an english saddle, and bareback, etc) and you've been given some very good information. The one thing I thought might help you is to describe it this way. In English riding, the rider always looks like they are riding the horse, controlling the movement, etc. The rider is very 'alert' and 'in charge' looking.
> 
> In western riding it should look more like the rider is relaxed and just along for the ride (I said LOOK like that, in reality, the rider should still be controlling the movement, have good posture,etc.).
> 
> That kind of 'look' will be easier for her when she has more experience overall, and there's really no reason to learn it now if she's enjoying English. Remind her that its better to learn to do the one thing well before you move on to another, that way she can focus on each, in turn, and do well at both, rather than just ok at both.


I really like this description and explanation. 

I'm getting better equipped to talk to her about English vs. western.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The point is that she has a natural aptitude and sits remarkable well for her age, size and amount of experience. She dealt with the forward pony quite well. I was impressed by how she did not fall forward when correcting him, for the most part.

If she wants to ride Western more, then maybe encourage her to sometimes hold the reins in one hand. this will help her sit up really straight. 

Honestly, I just think that she has so much going right for her that I can't in good conciounce (spell?) , critisize much for being "unwestern-like".

Let her learn English. She's a natural.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> The point is that she has a natural aptitude and sits remarkable well for her age, size and amount of experience. She dealt with the forward pony quite well. I was impressed by how she did not fall forward when correcting him, for the most part.
> 
> If she wants to ride Western more, then maybe encourage her to sometimes hold the reins in one hand. this will help her sit up really straight.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the feedback and the tip abour the reins.  She's really loving her English lessons, so no problems there.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Yay for riding with an english seat in a western saddle! It's just my natural seat. The typical western seat never stuck with me and I always find myself in a half seat, the best part: I never had English lessons or anything, it's just how I naturally ride.

Your daughter looks fine! Just let her have fun! No need to worry about being perfect yet.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree with what everyone else has said. She's got a great natural seat.
At this point, when she's still new to it all, it's probably best for her to just stick with learning English. Not to say she shouldn't ride western, but she shouldn't worry to much about trying to be perfect.

As she gets more experience and her riding muscles develop, she'll have a pretty easy time adjusting to different riding styles and trying out new things. 
There are all kinds of different types of riding out there, I bet she becomes a 'jack of all trades'. I love her (and your) eager attitude about learning different types of riding. 

Google 'vaulting' and show her some of that! Perhaps she'll have interest in trying that out as well 
LOL, don't kill me for putting that idea in her head


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

My guess is that since her instructor has her half seating/two pointing most of the time in lessons, she has learned to naturally lean forward a little. I tend to do that in my riding as well, western or english, just because of my hunter background. I have always been an english rider in a western saddle as well.  If it becomes an issue much later on, she could try a few dressage lessons to deepen her seat. It helps a bunch.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

I hope nobody gets mad at me for saying this, as I'm not intending anything negative by it.


It has been my experience, from working at an equestrian summer camp where the girls ride western and english and we get riders from all different backgrounds --- it seems to be quite a bit easier for the english girls to switch to western than it is for the western girls to switch to english. I think the english position is much more 'engaged', in that the leg muscles are constantly active, because you're not often actually sitting in an english saddle. With western, I feel like there's a lot more butt-to-saddle contact so the lower body muscles don't work quite as hard to support the upper body, in a western saddle. I think it makes switching from a western seat to an english seat much more difficult that the reverse.

That being said, your girl is developing the right foundation to be able to do both well!


I started out english. Rode hunter/jumper for 12 or 13 years, with my only western riding coming from the aforementioned summer camp, when I attended as a camper. I am now a western girl. I don't think you could pay me and my knees to get in an english saddle anymore. 


If you want any information about the camp, pm me. It seems like your daughter would absolutely love it! Though I do have to warn, it's pretty pricey :\


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

enh817 said:


> I hope nobody gets mad at me for saying this, as I'm not intending anything negative by it.
> 
> 
> *It has been my experience, from working at an equestrian summer camp where the girls ride western and english and we get riders from all different backgrounds --- it seems to be quite a bit easier for the english girls to switch to western than it is for the western girls to switch to english. I think the english position is much more 'engaged', in that the leg muscles are constantly active, because you're not often actually sitting in an english saddle. With western, I feel like there's a lot more butt-to-saddle contact so the lower body muscles don't work quite as hard to support the upper body, in a western saddle. I think it makes switching from a western seat to an english seat much more difficult that the reverse.*
> ...


Now I find it to be the opposite. Most people I know have a hard time sitting straight up and centered/balanced in a western saddle (which is the CORRECT way) after riding in a more forward position such as hunt seat. One of my best friends did the hunter circuit for a very long time, and it took her FOREVER to get used to sitting and riding western. For regular rail work in western....the correct position is like a dressage position.


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

It seems that maybe her reins are too short. If she had some longer reins she wouldn't be pulled forward so much and would be able to sit deeper in the saddle. I bet she is an very good english rider!


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## DoubleS (Jun 11, 2012)

What would really help her look less like an "English rider in a western saddle" is to lengthen the stirrups and sit back a tad bit more. It will feel really weird at first but you get used to it 
She's an awesome rider though, and if she's not going to take Western seriously (like showing and stuff) then I wouldn't worry about it.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you so much for all the feedback. I've been reading this forum and am learning so much. You guys are awesome!


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