# at which point do we screw up?



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

The black... the saddle seems squiffy in the second picture? This may be adding to your body position. 

Your hands are incredibly low in that picture too. It looks like... you tip, she throws her head up, your hands go in your pockets. Your reins do look a little long. I think you could have a better shoulder, elbow and wrist/hand position in all three pictures. Your shoulders look stiff and a little round, you're also looking down. It's one of my worst habits too.
When you feel things going downhill, roll those shoulder back and tip your chin up. Looking down is doing you na favours, or your horse. There is a picture somewhere that shows you how heavy your head actually is and by tipping forward how much it can unbalance you/the horse is then effected.

All in all I like your leg position, but your upper body needs to loosen off, and you need to think about your hand position. Its too low right now, and your arms are too straight.

Edit to add... Do you do any back strength work outside of riding? It helped mine a lot. I did back/core exercises two or three times a week at home and it not only loosened my back off, but I wasn't going in to the foetus position because I had the strength to keep my back straight and lower back active.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Duffy, you are relying on your hands to keep her head in position. Your hands need to be higher and a lot softer. 
Reins shorter.

When you are actually holding the reins it is only your thumb and forefinger that 'pinch' the rein to hold them, the rest of your hand is there to add extra feel for bend or transitions. 

When she resists do not pull back or down. As you are doing in the second picture but,Max her head has gone up, raise your hands and keep them soft. 

Also remember that your wrists should be as supple as a pianists!


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks guys! my instructor is always hollering at me to get my head up- I guess there are no new sins there. However I did not know about my hands- I thought they looked pretty good So I will definitely adjust them today when I ride. As for my shoulders- I know they are really stiff- as I mentioned before genetically they are positioned rolled forward- also they have a tendency to pop out of their sockets- it's a great party trick but no good for riding. Is there something I can do with my back or lower arms or anything that would make up for them?


Oh and PS what does 'squiffy' specify? I am not familiar with that technical term


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Squiffy is a highly scientific term. When was is squiffed, or skew-wiffed there is the possibility they are not set straight. 

The saddle in the middle picture appears to be hanging to the left, that's what I meant 

I hear you about dodgy shoulders! I would consider paying money out to seek advice from a physio who will check you out and give you a workout schedule for those shoulders. My left shoulder is mucked up after a dislocation and fracture, and repeat dislocations after. I was forced to attend physio three times a week for eight months (but this was a serious case after a bad dislocation). The physio showed me the exercises I needed to loosen off and strengthen the muscles around my shoulders. It doesn't have to be flinging weights around, it's mostly stretches. 

As for your hands.
Top picture they're curled in and sat too low, however you seem to have a good rein length and contact- it just means that you will have a harder time feeling the horse and the line from bit, rein, to hand is not clear for her.
The second picture your hands are completely rolled in at the wrists AND pointing down. Think about it now... if you have reins in your hands, where are you going from there, and how are you going to soften your horse and give a half halt in that position?

Third picture looks better, but they're still set pretty low and a bit motorbike ish. 
I have to leave now, but I;ll post some back and shoulder stretches for you to try tomorrow


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Off to barn. will update when I get back on how my adjustments went. Thanks everybody!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thank goodness you explained "squiffy". that was going to bother me all day.

I agree with Duffy's analysis.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You need a good week of walking without stirrups on a VERY safe horse, one hour/day. You will be amazed at how worn out you will become, but your torso must be independent of your legs and your arms. Right now you are balancing on the horse's mouth. The pictures show this, and the black horse isn't happy about it.
Keep the saddle. Bareback doesn't really teach you the balance and limber you up to follow the horse's movement as well as riding stirrupless IN a saddle. You will also follow the canter better afterwards.
My HS/J instructor had us warm up 3x each rein, posting without stirrups. You should do this after the no stirrup work.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*Word of the day = SQUiffy!* 

Odd you have never head of it before.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> You need a good week of walking without stirrups on a VERY safe horse, one hour/day. You will be amazed at how worn out you will become, but your torso must be independent of your legs and your arms. Right now you are balancing on the horse's mouth.


This might be hard because I don't have a safe horse to ride- but I'll do what I can. I do do a lot of stirrupless work already but I will be sure to fit in a lot of walk- it's Cru's worst gait too so it'll probably be good for both of us. In our first test I lost one stirrup- then kicked out the other so I could be even oddly we scored the best on this last part of the test. 

Note: I just came home from the barn and rode both of those horses- The black one first. I changed a few things about my ride: 1. I switched back to riding with my little finger under the rein (at a clinic one time the clinician told me to put my little finger on top of the rein so I could get a little more 'umph' out of my squeeze) I did this because changing something often makes one pay attention to it better. And it worked- suddenly I could keep them quiet and proactive because holding the reins felt new and different- I guess we get deadened to the aids as well. 2. I made a vow with myself that no matter what she did I would never let my butt leave the saddle. It worked for the most part 3. when she became snotty I would lift my hands to correct her and add leg to make her go deeper instead of trying to haul her down into a frame. These are all things I should know to do but I hadn't been doing unconsciously because I was being hurried and getting frustrated. We didn't do any real movements just worked on me and my going with her. Miracle of miracle it was like I had a totally different horse. Our canter was to die for- so uphill and light it had me grinning from ear to ear. Her trot work was better- she got a little upset that suddenly I could be effective even when she was being bad but we worked through it. I wish I could post critiques more often. They are so helpful for realizing what needs to be changed. 
I jumped the other horse because he has hot and I was bored- so not much to say there about my dressage eq on him.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Have you read Centered Riding? There's a tree trunk analogy that perfectly demonstrates all that's wrong with that second picture. Your core is very weak. (who's isn't. mine is like jello) It's putting you in a very weak position where your parts are not stacked up properly, so it's easy for your horse to pull you off balance. There's an exercise in the book that shows you how to center yourself to give yourself optimum position through your core while allowing you arms to be independent and free to follow your horse's motion. In that second pic, horsie pulled, you pulled back and you both ended up off balance. It might actually be the second CR book. Heck read them both. They are great for dressage related rider problems. 

For your shoulders, (and again, I'm a horrible slouch so speaking from experience) just remember this quote regarding riding. "Shoulders like a princess. Hips like a *****". Hopefully it's okay to use that word here. The visual works great for me.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> For your shoulders, (and again, I'm a horrible slouch so speaking from experience) just remember this quote regarding riding. "Shoulders like a princess. Hips like a *****". Hopefully it's okay to use that word here. The visual works great for me.


  
I will remember that....for sure now....

*Myboypuck*- I have not read centered riding- I would like to though darn libraries don't carry specific dressage related books- darned if I know why. I may have to invest in it though because you are the second person to recommend it to me. Unfortunately I quit my job about a half hour ago and will not be buying anything till I get another.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Instead of pulling your hands back try adjusting your reins so you can get a response by opening and closing your fingers. You may release only one inch of rein but the horse feels it. Try riding at the walk, sitting upright and ask the horse to turn by just tickling the rein with your pinky. It's surprising how quickly a horse can become responsive to this. Focus on looking at something 50 yards ahead of you. Chin up. This will help with your shoulders and upper back position. Every time your chin drops think of this that you are picking out a spot to land when this horse dumps you.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> You need a good week of walking without stirrups on a VERY safe horse, one hour/day. You will be amazed at how worn out you will become, but your torso must be independent of your legs and your arms.


I did this today. I left my stirrups in the tack cabin so i would not be tempted and did my whole ride w/o them. However i did not just walk. We did w/t/c with some laterals and a cavelleti thrown in. My legs are about dead at this point....and I'm going mountain climbing today....well that's just peachy. But I really really needed that. I have a lesson tomorrow, but other than that I will go through my week w/o stirrups.


> Every time your chin drops think of this that you are picking out a spot to land when this horse dumps you.


 Well unfortunately I learned this first hand today. as I mentioned before I had no stirrups. I had left a cavelleti out yesterday from riding the bay and decided to pop over it. About a stride out I remembered that I had no stirrups and was riding the horse that hates to jump. So I panicked, pinched with my knee, leaned forward and picked out my 'spot' She stopped then hopped over it and finished the 'jump' with a crowhop and a spin. Needless to say I landed on my backside with her witchy grin above me. I am unhurt though and I have now christened my helmet with it's first fall. I gave it a second go and a third and they both went much better once I had relaxed and let her motion just carry me. 

So once again, Thanks Everybody! You have no idea how much I needed this.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

When it comes to athletics period, not just riding the core is the center of everything. I think a part of your shoulder issue is related to having a weaker core than you need. With a stronger core and shoulders it would be easier for you to keep your shoulders back without it being forced. I say this because when your core is strong and stable it allows you to position more naturally with your shoulders and relax your thighs and hips into your seat bones. When your core is very strong you have the stability you need without resorting to using your legs or shoulders to find your balance, particularly if you are riding something that throws its weight around or attempts to pull down in the bridle excessively or whatever, you then have the strength to resist and push them forward to correct those issues without making it a bigger problem. 

Riding is SO difficult because there are so many moving parts and there is not a one size fits all formula for every horse and every rider. Sometimes things that work and are appropriate for one horse or rider are not appropriate for a different horse or rider. And sometimes our positions falter because we get so focussed on riding that we can forget our position. Influencing a horse and riding well does not mean you have to have a perfect position, a good position is useful but good riding is about having good use of aids. That is good timing, knowing when to apply an aid and when to release it and when to back off a horse and let them be. 

From the pictures, I don't particularly like heavily critiquing or forming a judgment of a rider off of a few pictures because I see what is happening in one moment but I have no idea what happened before or what came after so I have no idea of the real scenario or what you did to correct whatever reaction or why you reacted the way that you did. That said I would suggest doing planks perhaps start with 30 seconds in front, 30 seconds to both sides and 30 seconds doing a bridge and back to a 30 second hold in front and build from there. Push ups for your shoulders and training your body to more naturally go into the position you desire. I'd also suggest doing some dance and yoga to help with muscular strength, control, awareness and coordination. A lot of dance and yoga is focused on mind-body awareness which is intimately connected to riding in the sense that we have to be very coordinated and aware to communicate the right signals to the horse. This may sound silly but I am constantly amazed by how much little things like 10 minutes of floor exercises can help. Riders are athletes too.


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