# Pura raza espanola experts please



## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

No expert, but I would be interested in any replies, too.


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

I'm told by a friend that breeds Spanish Horses in the UK that Iberian Dun is found on a different locus to other Duns.
Is this correct?


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

Okay I now have further info. Apparently Iberian Dun does express a little differently to other breeds. This was a reply I got from a friend that knows:-



> UC Davis had an Iberian dun research project a few years ago and I was asked to send off samples of some of my horses, mainly the dna tested blacks that weren’t actually black to look at. They ran out of money and the actual test for Iberian dun wasn’t viable because of the cost, so the research has sadly been dropped. So there is very little correct information out there. UC Davis have changed their website because it did used to say the test was not available for Iberian horses, but I can’t see that on there anymore


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Virtually _all_ foals, regardless of breed, can and will present primitive markings (leg barring, countershading, shoulder barring, etc) as a means of camouflage. It can be extreme (to the point of you're scratching your head because you're confused as to how it's possible you ended up with a dun foal out of two obviously non-dun parents) or in can be practically nonexistent.


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

> Virtually _all_ foals, regardless of breed, can and will present primitive markings (leg barring, countershading, shoulder barring, etc) as a means of camouflage. It can be extreme (to the point of you're scratching your head because you're confused as to how it's possible you ended up with a dun foal out of two obviously non-dun parents) or in can be practically nonexistent.


This is exactly what I have been wondering about. I have noticed leg barring on Iberian foals but little else to say that they are dun, yet plenty of people are advertising these Iberian horses as dun. That is why I want to hear from PRE experts because I'm a learner when it comes to the Iberian horses.
I thought all dun could be tested for.
I'm told that this Iberian stallion has been tested for dun.http://www.millpark-andalusians.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=39


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Interesting. In some pics he looks very grullo, but in others, he just looks like a faded black. At least to me...


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

I was thinking the same thing. I actually emailed her to ask questions from a learning perspective and also asked if he has been tested but I never got a reply. I know what grulla looks like and I don't see enough in that stallion to say he is but if Iberian breeders state it expresses differently then maybe we can be fooled???


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

The same breeder has two other stallions (Mill Gravitar and Mill Sonador) that he claims to be bay dun. The breeder even states genotypes (Dd for Mill Gravitar and DD for Mill Sonador).) Both look very much like regular bays though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

I just got a reply from Millpark and it would appear that Iberian Dun is definitely different to Dun as we know it. Here's the reply:-



> My horses were used for the research testing program at UC Davis CA USA unfortunately the recession put a stop to a lot of the research, and they wanted to keep things undercover for as long as possible because they had managed to isolate the gene's responsible, as they are different to the same colour gene in other breeds,


There is definitely dilution in the coat and she states he does (the stallion) have the dorsal stripe and leg bars, so definitely Dun.
I find colour in horses interesting and it pays to ask questions, as we are not always aware of current research etc. Some breeds express colour quite differently to others.
Now I still want to know about Champagne in Iberian horses. Does it exist or is it mistaken for something else?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I can't comment on the breed here but as far as "some breeds express colour quite differently to others".. I never really thought about that but went to visit a herd of Icelandics. Now our mare is a little odd looking but whatever and they have pretty much every color under the rainbow in that breed... but looking at the herd even horses that I KNEW must be a normal color (bay/chestnut) just didn't even look it. It was really interesting. I still have some pictures where I'm not even sure what color the horses are and I'm pretty good with that. They had a chestnut stallion that was just the oddest color ever.

Now Icelandics are obviously very isolated but I can definitely see some of the older breeds having that same thing going even if it's not to an extreme extent.


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

I think what happens sometimes is that colours mutate. They believe the Pearl gene is a mutation of cream and you can get a double dilute with one cream gene and one pearl gene.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

what happens when they breed a PRE with a supposed dun gene with an horse of another breed (that is obviously not dun)? do they ever get a dun or dun ike horse as a result? interesting about pearl. im looking to get an arabian mare and breed her to a PRE stud in a few years.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I hadn't heard of a different Iberian dun, but I've often wondered about Fjord dun. AFAIK it tests like regular dun, but certainly expresses differently in purebred Fjords! I knew a Fjord/Morgan cross that was colored like a typical non-Fjord bay dun.


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## thecolorquest (Nov 30, 2011)

There is no champagne in the PREs. There is double-pearl, which has been called champagne in the past. Any PRE you see advertised as Champagne is Pearl or is not PRE.


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## Southern Grace (Feb 15, 2013)

For the dun gene not testing on the same location in Iberian breeds, see the Sorraia pony (or very small horse, I don't remember what is considered the correct term). They are a predominately, if not always dun breed that does not DNA test as a dun at UC Davis. So we know the location is different for them, could easily be possible in the PRE as well.

Another common issue is that the term "dun" is frequently used for a buckskin horse in Europe. So when you are looking an a European breeder, or Mexico too I think, they will call a horse dun that is definitely a buckskin, it's just a centuries old terminology issue.

I genuinely believe that Hatero de PB is a grullo, but until someone gets the genes worked out, we may never really know.

















I have never heard of Champagne in the PRE, so I'm guessing that one is terminology as well.


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

thecolorquest said:


> There is no champagne in the PREs. There is double-pearl, which has been called champagne in the past. Any PRE you see advertised as Champagne is Pearl or is not PRE.


Thank you for that as I have heard Pearl refered to as Champgane before and this is what made me wonder whether champagne wqas in facta PRE colour.


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

Southern Grace said:


> For the dun gene not testing on the same location in Iberian breeds, see the Sorraia pony (or very small horse, I don't remember what is considered the correct term). They are a predominately, if not always dun breed that does not DNA test as a dun at UC Davis. So we know the location is different for them, could easily be possible in the PRE as well.
> 
> Another common issue is that the term "dun" is frequently used for a buckskin horse in Europe. So when you are looking an a European breeder, or Mexico too I think, they will call a horse dun that is definitely a buckskin, it's just a centuries old terminology issue.
> 
> ...


 Yep I've seen that as well so this is why I'm asking the experts. I know with Welsh ponies in New Zealand they refer to buckskin as Dun and this is why I want clarification, however I do have it on good authority that UC Davis was testing true PRE Dun and its found on a different locus to Dun as we know it, howver they could not complete the research as the recession his and money was tight. They were getting sample from two studs but needed many more to complete the research.


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