# Am I the only one to catch on..



## KennyRogersPaints (Jan 9, 2011)

My barn owner recently purchased a PSG horse for $130k he had never been shown, he is on the hotter side, but very reasonable and polite on the ground. He was shown by someone and apparently he reared and flipped over, I believe this was only a one time occurrence. My barn owner is in her early 60's and is a timid rider, she shows PSG but has a packet type horse who takes care of her, so she is not looking for a hot head. Her solution to the misbehavior is to euthanize the horse. Many clients haven't questioned her reasoning behind it, she claims he is dangerous. But I'm thinking it's more along the lines of claiming insurance money if she is to put him down. Just though I'd share, sometimes the horse world can be quite nasty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KennyRogersPaints said:


> My barn owner recently purchased a PSG horse for $130k he had never been shown, he is on the hotter side, but very reasonable and polite on the ground. He was shown by someone and apparently he reared and flipped over, I believe this was only a one time occurrence. My barn owner is in her early 60's and is a timid rider, she shows PSG but has a packet type horse who takes care of her, so she is not looking for a hot head. Her solution to the misbehavior is to euthanize the horse. Many clients haven't questioned her reasoning behind it, she claims he is dangerous. But I'm thinking it's more along the lines of claiming insurance money if she is to put him down. Just though I'd share, sometimes the horse world can be quite nasty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


60 year old woman and the horse rears and flips over? Yep, that would be the end of the horse for me too. 1.3 K or 130 K doesn't matter, insurance or no.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

She claims the horse is dangerous because it is. Usually rearing isn't a one time thing, and if he rears high enough to flip on his rider then yep, he's dangerous. I know countless trainers who wont touch a horse that rears with a ten foot pole, because while riding itself is a dangerous sport, a horse that rears isn't worth a penny (to most). My previous horse took up rearing, just little hops off the ground but it was constant. Eventually I put him up for free as a riding horse (if you dare) or a companion because he was Mr. Manners on the ground. Somebody DID take him from me (a guy who was just as crazy as the horse :lol and they're happy, he's willing to take the risk, but he brought that horse over for me to have a ride on and even after months of no-rearing I wouldn't want to get on.

The fact is, it isn't your horse, so as much as you do know or think you know about it, you probably don't know 100% of the story, and it would probably suit you well not to judge too harshly.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Unless you know how to deal with a rearing horse, and you're got the guts and grit to do what needs to be done, you have no business even touching one. I don't blame her for thinking the horse is dangerous, and if she doesn't think she can sell it then yeah...Maybe it's best to put the animal down rather than either a) let it be dangerous to others, b) let it keep eating what she pays for, or c) let it be sold to someone who either doesn't have a clue or just intends to send him to the meat factory.

Now, I will deal with rearers. I know how, I'm one who loses fear in the moment of action(Though I sure as hell have a ton of fear thinking about it), and I am young and still "bouncing". I've jumped off a lot of rearing horses and absolutely whalloped them on the ground...However, I wouldn't expect a 60yr old woman to do that!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

*Whispers* What's a PSG horse, OK it suddenly hit me












But still asking...

what does $130K look like?:shock:

For that money I'd send a horse back if it didn't **** gold bars!

Horse rears it's dangerous, when you are 60, and I am looking at that number closely, ever more closely, you don't want to have to deal with issues, believe me, I know.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd never judge a person's decision to euthanize a horse that rears and flips, nor would I then come on a public bulletin board and accuse that person of insurance fraud just to "share".


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## Customcanines (Jun 17, 2012)

When I was 15 - 20 I rode several horses that reared, and a few that would flip over - didn't bother me a bit and I broke 2 of them so they didn't do it again. Now, I am 60 years old, and believe me, that horse would be gone in an instant. That is, if I could scape myself off the ground to do it.


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## KennyRogersPaints (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm not judging her decisions as harshly as you may think, knowing the person and knowing the horse, I just think it really isn't fair to the animal. I do not blame her one bit for deciding that he horse isn't for her, but knowing the horse and watching him show this weekend, and score a 67 is PSG... He does not need to be euthanized, quite a few people at my farm would take him if need be, but she seems to be set on destroying him, I just wanted to share this story to get a good opinion from other horse people, but I obviously did not post enough background information... This horse is hot, his previous owners were feeding him TWENTY FOUR quarts of grain a day, can't blame him for being a bit upiddy... I do agree my BO should not ride him, let me make that clear, but there are plenty of people who could handle this horse and have him be 100% manageable. But they probably won't pay astronomical amounts of money like my BO did, so she sees the dollar signs and would rather have her money versus looking out for the animals quality of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KennyRogersPaints said:


> But they probably won't pay astronomical amounts of money like my BO did, so she sees the dollar signs and would rather have her money versus looking out for the animals quality of life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Horses are a large investment and a horse that rears and flips is not going to recoup what you spent on him at $130K. It's also a serious liability to sell on a horse that is known to flip and rear. It isn't a quality of life issue for the horse at all, it's a protecting herself from a HUGE lawsuit issue. 

As you've read, most of us here on the forum wouldn't touch a horse like that for any amount of money. There are far too many nice tempered, talented horses out there who would LOVE to have a home like she's providing this one. 

In a sense, that horse is lucky she's willing to spend the money to euth him, a lot of folks would just drop him at the meat buyer's or take him out and shoot him themselves. She sounds like she DOES care that he not be mistreated or abused and suffer.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

Kenny Rogers, I agree with you. While the horse may have once flipped over, it was mostly the rider's mistake. Horses do not rear for no reason. Yes, it is her horse and she can do what she wants. But, I'm sure with more time and patience, this horse, like any horse, could be a perfectly good companion. When it comes to it, she chose to buy the horse, which entails an obligation. Would you adopt a child, and then decide to "put it down" at the first sign of misbehavior? Of course not. She bought this horse, and now has an obligation to yes, FEED it, and care for it, no matter the costs. NO horse should be put down for the mistake of people. This horse was not born wishing to harm people. If it is harming anyone, it is because of people themselves. Perhaps the person that taught this horse to rear should be taken out of the horse business to keep further animals from suffering. Not all horses are meant to be ridden, that does not mean it cannot be useful.


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## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

I can't think of one insurance company that allows you to claim a horse because s it's dangerous and has been put down. Illness, yes. Sudden death, yes. Life altering injury, yes. Being put down due to temperament or training issues? 

Who does she have this insurance with? I need to give them a call if this is the case.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> *Whispers* What's a PSG horse, OK it suddenly hit me


They haven't fallen on me yet, I'm still trying to figure it out.:?


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

JCnGrace said:


> They haven't fallen on me yet, I'm still trying to figure it out.:?


 
It's means Prix St. George. It's a high level of dressage.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't know of a single insurance policy that pays out when a horse is put down without serious health reasons.

The pay out for death is always an "accidental" death. Not "horse is dangerous so i'm putting it down". Just like it does not cover a horse being put down for old age.

The BO doesn't want to rehome him because she doesn't want to be responsible for someone getting hurt. She knows the horse rears and it has gone over. Imagine the guilt of handing that horse off to someone else, knowing it's history, and the horse rears over and kills the new rider. Even passing him off as a pasture companion. Someone is going to go "oh look hes nice and quiet on the ground and he is sound. I want to try and ride him!" then the person gets on, horse goes over backwards and kills the rider. It is just to dangerous. While he may be a nice and sweet horse, he could likely kill someone some day.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Rearing _can_ happen for no reason, as in, it is not always the rider's fault.

My last mare had a significant rearing issue. I'm assuming she reared once with her last owner out of fear or sticky feet, he did not correct it or got off and stopped riding.

So, she got it in her head to rear whenever she wanted to stop working or didn't want to go away from the barn. She was a nightmare. Some days she was awesome, but the bad days outweighed the good. I ended up retraining her enough to where she would go away from the barn quietly and then I sold her (with full disclosure). It was unfortunate, because she was an awesome horse.

Point being, it isn't fair to say, "Horses don't rear for no reason, it is the rider's fault," because that is not true.


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

OP did the horse rear and flip after the BO purchased him or did that happen before she purchased him?


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

NBEventer said:


> The BO doesn't want to rehome him because she doesn't want to be responsible for someone getting hurt. She knows the horse rears and it has gone over. Imagine the guilt of handing that horse off to someone else, knowing it's history, and the horse rears over and kills the new rider. Even passing him off as a pasture companion. Someone is going to go "oh look hes nice and quiet on the ground and he is sound. I want to try and ride him!" then the person gets on, horse goes over backwards and kills the rider. It is just to dangerous. While he may be a nice and sweet horse, he could likely kill someone some day.


 
So he deserves to die? She doesnt have to, or need to, sell the horse. And if she does, as long as she is honest about the horse's past, then there should be no reason for her to feel guilty. There is no reason this horse cannot be properly trained and ridden by an experienced rider. If she feels too nervous about selling the horse, then she can keep it. Putting down a perfectly healthy horse just because she isn't qualified to ride it is completely irresposible. She should not have bought the horse without properly vetting it's background and training first. This was her mistake, and she needs to live with it. 

I don't know how someone could claim to love horses, and yet so easily murder one just because it may not suit his/her needs. All horses are dangerous. They are 1,000 pound animals with a mind of their own. All horses rear, whether it be under saddle or not. People simply need to learn how to properly deal with the situation.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

Sunny said:


> I'm assuming she reared once with her last owner out of fear or sticky feet, he did not correct it or got off and stopped riding.


 
You simply proved my point. The RIDER did not correct the issue, and so she continued to rear.

Also, I said it was usually the rider's fault, not a definite always. Let's not quote incorrectly. 

Your solution was to deal with the issue, retrain, and learn to work with the horse. NOT to put it down because of a flaw. That's all I'm stating.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

thatkrayz said:


> So he deserves to die? She doesnt have to, or need to, sell the horse. And if she does, as long as she is honest about the horse's past, then there should be no reason for her to feel guilty. There is no reason this horse cannot be properly trained and ridden by an experienced rider. If she feels too nervous about selling the horse, then she can keep it. Putting down a perfectly healthy horse just because she isn't qualified to ride it is completely irresposible. She should not have bought the horse without properly vetting it's background and training first. This was her mistake, and she needs to live with it.
> 
> I don't know how someone could claim to love horses, and yet so easily murder one just because it may not suit his/her needs. All horses are dangerous. They are 1,000 pound animals with a mind of their own. All horses rear, whether it be under saddle or not. People simply need to learn how to properly deal with the situation.



I am not going to sit here and argue with you. But the fact remains that the horse world is over populated. We have millions of horses out there who do not have a deadly dangerous habit that need homes. 

But as you are new, I will give you a heads up about this forum. The majority of members on this forum are realistic. We all love horses. But we all know that some horses simply are dangerous and its safer for everyone that the animal be PTS. Oh and a good chunk of members here are pro-slaughter. Another heads up :wink:

The horses current owner may sell the horse with the disclaimer. But what if that person decides to sell the horse after it goes over backwards on them and they don't provide the disclosure of the horses deadly vice?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh and an add on. It may not be a training issue. It could very well not even be a pain issue. Its just something the horse does. Not every horse can be "fixed" with training.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

The human race is over populated. So are dogs, cats, and most domestic animals. Do we go around sending people to the slaughter?

And the fact that someone would be PROUD to be pro-slaughter is saddening. "Realistic" is a great virtue. And I'm realisitic myself. It's REALISTIC that she take responsibility for her choices. It's REALISTIC that she chose to buy a horse, and must now live with her actions. 

If the horse has only done this once, and is perfectly well mannered on the ground, than I simply don't see where the need for euthenizing comes in. Would you kill a horse for being a biter, but a prize winner in the show ring?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

thatkrayz said:


> Would you kill a horse for being a biter, but a prize winner in the show ring?


Comparing biting to rearing? Not really comparable but if you want to go down that route...

We had a horse at a barn I was at years ago who was a biter. We were just careful about how we handled her. Until one day she picked a little kid up by its head. That horse found itself in the kill pen the next day.

Horse was a gem to ride but you couldn't put her in a box stall because she would spin around and kick you. You couldn't put her in a straight stall because she kicked. We were willing to work with that though so we built a straight stall that she could be backed into and it had a door on the front. This worked great for the longest time until she started biting. When she picked a little kid up by her head though that was the end of it. 

Millions of horses need homes right now. Why not give one of those horses a chance?

By law if your dog attacks someone it has to be PTS. Should the same not be true for a horse?


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

A horse rearing, usually out of pain or fear, is not the same as a dog attacking someone. Horses are not preditory animals. It's lovely that you went through those extremes to help that horse. And, I agree, after literally picking a child up by the head, then that may have been the best option. But, you clearly stated that the horse also had other bad habits. 

In this case, the horse has reared and fallen once. It doesn't seem from the OP that any means are being taken to try and re-train the horse of this flaw. Or that it has even been considered. Only after truely trying to save a horse should the option of putting him to sleep be brought up. 

Simply killing an animal because it is the easy thing to do, is disgusting.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

thatkrayz said:


> A horse rearing, usually out of pain or fear, is not the same as a dog attacking someone. Horses are not preditory animals. It's lovely that you went through those extremes to help that horse. And, I agree, after literally picking a child up by the head, then that may have been the best option. But, you clearly stated that the horse also had other bad habits.
> 
> In this case, the horse has reared and fallen once. It doesn't seem from the OP that any means are being taken to try and re-train the horse of this flaw. Or that it has even been considered. Only after truely trying to save a horse should the option of putting him to sleep be brought up.
> 
> Simply killing an animal because it is the easy thing to do, is disgusting.


This horse of the OP's description is not in pain or fear.

I can tell right now you have never been flipped over on, have you?
Why don't you offer to go work with the horse then?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

The horse is a PSG horse but never went into the show ring. I highly doubt this was a one time thing. Obviously there is far more to the story that we don't know. If a horse is trained to PSG and hasn't made it to the shower ring there is a reason.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

KennyRogersPaints said:


> I'm not judging her decisions as harshly as you may think, knowing the person and knowing the horse, _I just think it really isn't fair to the animal_... This horse is hot, his previous owners were feeding him TWENTY FOUR quarts of grain a day, can't blame him for being a bit upiddy... looking out for the animals quality of life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


THIS is the type of thinking that I just have to laugh over. You do not KNOW the #'s of much safer horses out there that need homes. UNfortunately, it is ridiculous to believe that a horse that flips is worth _any_ money spent on fixing this *dangerous* *habit*.


KennyRogersPaints said:


> This horse is hot, _his previous owners were feeding him TWENTY FOUR quarts of grain a day,_ c*an't blame him for being a bit uppitty...* looking out for the animals quality of life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Lots of well mannered and hot horses do NOT rear and flip on their owners. My Arabian horse, "Corporal" (1982-2009, RIP) was bored at our last National CW Reenactment (2008) bc our commander gave us NOTHING to do. He jigged for a full hour, trying to burn off steam and THIS is what a well mannered and/or over-grained horse will do. No rearing, no flipping, no bolting.
Congress is trying as we write to outlaw all US horse slaughter, which will make for even MORE homeless horses.
I am sorry to tell you that you that horses are property. You wouldn't buy a house that was structurally unsound just bc it's pretty, and you shouldn't value dangerous horses, either.
But, there is still the freedom in this country to value dangerous animals. I wouldn't touch this horse with a 10 foot pole. I am too old and I would break if he flipped on me. Bleed your heart more, if you wish.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

The OP clearly stated that this horse could be manageable with an experienced rider. I don't know where you're getting the solid infomation this this horse is niether scared nor in pain.

"I do agree my BO should not ride him, let me make that clear, but there are plenty of people who could handle this horse and have him be 100% manageable."

SorrelHorse, no, I have never been flippped over on. I never put a horse in enough fear or pain to cause a situation like that. I know what proper measures to take when a horse DOES rear to keep them from collapsing on themselves. Many horses flip because a rider pulls back while the horse is only on two legs, looses balance, or both. I coulnd't image a horse that willingly plans on flipping itself over, putting himself in danger as well. 

I'm mature enough to admit that when my horse does occasionally have her rearing fits, that it's most likely my fault.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

thatkrayz said:


> It's lovely that you went through those extremes to help that horse. And, I agree, after literally picking a child up by the head, then that may have been the best option. But, you clearly stated that the horse also had other bad habits..


This horse had other habits yes, but these habits escalated over time. It started as kicking in a box stall, and snow balled over time. If a horse starts with one dangerous habit for no reason(seriously this mare had NO reason to be this much of a cow) it will just snow ball and get worse and worse. 

The horse the OP is talking about already has one very deadly habit that pain and training has been ruled out to be the cause of. I can only imagine how much worse it can get over time.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

I don't "value" dangrous horses. And no, I would not buy an unsound horse just because of how it looks. But, I'm not the one with a horse flipping over. Perhaps, that sentiment should have been shared with the owner of this horse.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

thatkrayz said:


> *The OP clearly stated that this horse could be manageable with an experienced rider.* I don't know where you're getting the solid infomation this this horse is niether scared nor in pain.
> 
> "I do agree my BO should not ride him, let me make that clear, but there are plenty of people who could handle this horse and have him be 100% manageable."
> 
> ...


This is what the OP believes. How do we know if this is fact? I would never knowingly unload a horse that goes over backwards on anyone. Because like I already mentioned. How do we know the person who takes the horse with the disclosure will not hand it off to someone else without the disclosure? 

What if this horse gets sold to a kid in the future without knowing that its a rearer?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

thatkrayz said:


> The OP clearly stated that this horse could be manageable with an experienced rider. I don't know where you're getting the solid infomation this this horse is niether scared nor in pain.
> 
> "I do agree my BO should not ride him, let me make that clear, but there are plenty of people who could handle this horse and have him be 100% manageable."
> 
> ...


Get flipped over on and then come back and talk to me about it.

I've had horses flip on me, by no fault of mine. I've seen horses flip by no fault of others. I had a rearer come to me to get broken of the habit, and while I was holding onto his mane thinking "I'm going to die today" he flipped over. Thankfully, I jumped off and rolled out of the way. Otherwise, I truly think I would not be alive to tell you about it. We fixed the problem later.

I am not saying that this horse could not be fixed. However the arrogance of saying she should keep a horse she deems to be dangerous is incredulous to me. Many people buy horses, then get them home and realize they are not something they could get along with.

Maybe we don't know if it's pain or fear. Neither do you.

If we are are not in a position to say the horse should be put down, you are in no position to say the horse should NOT be put down.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

OP, why don't you make her an offer to buy him then?
If you think this horse is so worth saving, save him yourself.

This very much reminds me of the anti slaughter people with plan for where all the unwanted horses will go. Not their backyards!
This horse is unwanted, so what is he supposed to do? Stand in a stall or paddock unused and keep racking up bills? 
Once a horse flips over on a rider, they will do it again. Horses don't just rear out of pain or fear, I don't know where you got that idea. Once they learn that they can get out of work, they'll rear and flip. Once a horse goes to that place where it disregards its own safety, it loses any and all value. I currently own my heart horse, and if he flipped on me, I would have the vet out that same day. No ones life should be ended because of an animal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

I have no plans of ever having a horse flip over on me, thanks though. Perhaps, with so many horses rearing and fliping over with you, you should consider that there is only one consistant element. You. 

I'm not saying that she should have to keep the horse. By all means, sell it. If a parent is silly enough to buy this horse later on down the road without proper information, or seeing it ridden, then that's a shame. 

Before putting this horse down, it should be ruled out that the problem cannot be fixed. That's all I'm stating. A rash decision to put an animal down should never be made. If this habbit continues, then yes, I agree that it is a danger. But, a one time rear is not reason enough, to me, to condemn an animal to death.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

The complete disregard for the lives of the animals you claim to "love" in this thread disgusts me. And the fact that NO ONE here is willing to admitt that a lot of major horse flaws derive from the flaws of their owners is ridiculous. Horses are trained by PEOPLE, it is us who make them, or break them. 

Perhaps some people should take a look in the mirror and realize that their animals are only a reflection of themselves. I never seen a horse flip, rear, or even buck without a reason to do so. No matter how small or silly it may seem to the human eye. Whether is be pain, fear, extra energy, barn sour, buddy sour, or a mare in heat. There is always a reason for a horse to misbehave.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

I've never had a horse rear and flip on me. Never a full rear either. I wouldn't let it get to that point. A half rear in protest, and I'm on the ground having that horse flying backwards 50 feet.

I'd also suggest having a deeper look into this forum, and seeing that while this is a community of horse owners an lovers, we all have limits. None of us are going to throw our lives away to try to give a dangerous animal a second chance. A bucker, sure. A biter, no problem. Incredibly foundered only pasture pet? Sure, it can stay at my place and rack up the bills. A flipper? No. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

thatkrayz said:


> I have no plans of ever having a horse flip over on me, thanks though. Perhaps, with so many horses rearing and fliping over with you, you should consider that there is only one consistant element. You.
> 
> I'm not saying that she should have to keep the horse. By all means, sell it. If a parent is silly enough to buy this horse later on down the road without proper information, or seeing it ridden, then that's a shame.
> 
> Before putting this horse down, it should be ruled out that the problem cannot be fixed. That's all I'm stating. A rash decision to put an animal down should never be made. If this habbit continues, then yes, I agree that it is a danger. But, a one time rear is not reason enough, to me, to condemn an animal to death.


Quite arrogant since I told you I fixed the problem. Also quite arrogant to say "so many horses" that have flipped on me. How do you know how many have flipped on me? I'm the one who takes the horses after they learn to throw themselves on the ground. I don't think you can truly understand how terrifying that is until you ride it, or how brave you have to be. I'm not bragging because I'm no big name trainer - But I don't tolerate that, and I don't expect anyone else to. If you can't fix it, get rid of it, before you get killed. You don't always plan to get flipped on, it just happens and sometimes it is nobody's fault.

A parent being silly enough to buy it...So sell it to the ignorant, and pray they don't get their kid killed? Great philosophy, not all sellers are honest, and not all buyers are born with the decades of experience it takes to recognize the signs.

There are too many factors, and I'm simply saying that you have no right to tell the owner she is making the incorrect decision when you know nothing about the horse. I've said what I would do, and I've said I understand if the owner feels that this is the best option.

Like I said, how about you volunteer to go save the horse? How about you find homes for all the non-dangerous horses too? I have an unstarted mare who was left unhandled for her entire eleven years. If you can find any market value for her, I'll be really impressed. You can't always play the self righteous. You can't always find the solution. You can't make everything black and white with horses. You can't make a decision based on a thread on a forum.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

thatkrayz said:


> The complete disregard for the lives of the animals you claim to "love" in this thread disgusts me. And the fact that NO ONE here is willing to admitt that a lot of major horse flaws derive from the flaws of their owners is ridiculous. Horses are trained by PEOPLE, it is us who make them, or break them.
> 
> Perhaps some people should take a look in the mirror and realize that their animals are only a reflection of themselves. I never seen a horse flip, rear, or even buck without a reason to do so. No matter how small or silly it may seem to the human eye. Whether is be pain, fear, extra energy, barn sour, buddy sour, or a mare in heat. There is always a reason for a horse to misbehave.


Of course humans train things. But not every human is capable of dealing with it.

All my personal horses are angels because I instruct kids. I would shoot the horse myself before I let them hurt a kid when it could have been prevented. I expect them to step up and perform for me with high intensity and then slow down for a kid. In return, I feed, water, groom, provide for their medical needs, etc. 

Let's see...Reasons for the horse to misbehave that you listed:

Pain
Fear
Energy
Sourness
Heat

The ONLY acceptable reason in this situation is pain. My mare gets ****y when she's in heat, but I'll be damned if my whole world is gonna stop to accomadate her. If she had ovarian cysts however, or was suffering from poor saddle fit, I would understand. I don't let a horse with energy misbehave either, because then they just learn whenever they want to "play" they can play and ol' stupid human will just let them. Fear on a green horse is one thing, but if you start a colt right you will NOT have a fear problem. They'll check with you before they panic. I've never had a horse spook that I've started myself.

Where did we ever say horses behavior wasn't a reflection of humans?
And where did you figure horses I got in for training were a reflection of ME, and not their owners?


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

I'm not saying that you should tolerate bad behavior. I'm just stating that their is always a reason for it. It's not just "random" or "for no reason" like some have stated. 

You've made YOUR decision based on a thread in a forum. I'm not going to volunteer to buy anyone's horse. I know I can't afford, nor want, more than the one I have now. I'm a realistic horse owner. 

"A parent being silly enough to buy it...So sell it to the ignorant, and pray they don't get their kid killed? Great philosophy, not all sellers are honest, and not all buyers are born with the decades of experience it takes to recognize the signs."

A little hypocritcal to condem my "philosphy" when you suggested that I go get a horse to flip over on me. I also stated that it would be a "shame" and in no way wish it on anyone. 

My original point was that no horse should be condmed for a trait that other's could easily fix. The OP himself stated that this horse could be perfectly fine in the hands of another owner, and that multiple people who actually KNOW the horse are questioning her decision. 

Kill all the horses you want, have a blast with it.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

Yep. I'll just go load up my shotgun and pick off a few. Hays getting expensive anyways.

Maybe you should read a thread where we all mourn with the poster when a horse passes, be it put down or illness or a tragic accident. None of us would be gung-ho to put a horse down, it'd be heartbreaking and I'm sure tears would be shed no matter what the circumstances. We are, after all, horse lovers here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

Obviously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

thatkrayz said:


> I'm not saying that you should tolerate bad behavior. I'm just stating that their is always a reason for it. It's not just "random" or "for no reason" like some have stated.
> 
> *Never said it was no reason. Sometimes it's just nobody's fault.*
> 
> ...



Oh wow, okay, let me put all my answers in bold in the quote for this one.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

_Jeeze.


*That was a little quip, to make a point that I believe you have NO idea how dangerous this situation is, and yet you have the audacity to come onto a public forum as a new user with no credible reputation here and say we're all cruel for being realistic. I said that to prove a point, not because I actually want a horse to flip on you. I'm quite surprised you did not catch that. -- *I have every idea how dangerous it is. Just because it has not happened does not mean I don't empathize. I've also nevr been shot, but I understand the dangers. I have been reared, bucked, kicked, I've had a horse trip and fall, and I have every comprhension of what dangers are involved when a horse flips over. Just because I'm "new" doesn't mean that I lack credibiliy. I've never seen you on this forum either, does that make you less credible?



*How do you know the OP is credible? How do you know you are credible? How can you make a decision like this, without knowing the horse? How dare you accuse us of making a decision, when none of us have done anything but say "Yeah, we understand". Don't put words in our mouths. - *Asking someone if they know they are credible is silly. I can ask you the same. I'm not making any decision. I have said mutiple times that every other option should be exhuasted before a decision to kill the horse should be made. It should have every chance to redeem itself. Or do you not believe in second chances? I'm sure you've never made a mistake. Take your own advice, and don't put words in my mouth. You have no more information about this animal than I do, and yet you assume that there is no possible way the horse is simply acting out of fear or pain. 


*Wow, that escalated quickly. You are completely overeacting. Do you feel that no horse, ever, should be put down? Do you feel that a rearer should NEVERbe put down? Please enlighten me... - *Of course there are circumstances. Horses suffering or in severe pain should be put down. A habitual rearer? Perhaps. But, as of the OP, this horse is NOT a habitual rearer. It was a one-time occurance. _

I'm just surprised to see so little effort among "horse lovers" to at least attempt to stand up for this animal. One occurance, one possible accident, does not mean that a horse should be put down. The situation for this horses actions could be totally explainable, and yet everyone wants to talk about what a dangerous horse this is. He could have been in danger himself, depending on the people that were around him. Maybe people should look at the glass half-full for a moment before they decide that murder is the best option.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

Euthanisia does not equal murder.
Statements like that make you lose any credibility that you had, and make you look like a PETA nutjob.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

The horse dies, does it not? It's being put down for behavioral reasons that were most likely preventable. If someone can't see that as murder, then I would question their morality.

A doctor who carelessly looses a patient can be sued for murder. Even though the patient didn't feel any pain, it still counts. 

This horse is not suffering from pain, in which is is humane is end its life. He simply does not live up to the expectations of his owner, and some have deamed him "dangerous." Which is still questionable.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

This is going in complete circles.

I have stayed on the same track this entire time. I would not put the horse down, but I would not condemn someone who did as cruel.

You have no provided any credibility for us, most everyone already here knows each other, has met in real life, etc. That's all that's coming into play here. 

I've told you already that I make mistakes. You aren't human if you don't. You being snarky at all of us, accusing us of being cruel or not standing up for the horse. That speaks for itself. I already addressed that I have made no decision on this horse several times, yet you continually insist we are wrong. I already made the argument that no decision can be made over a public forum several posts ago. I'm glad we can agree, however I have made NO decision. You have.

As for the horse not being a habitual rearer, how can you be any more certain than the rest of us? You have no more information than we do. Once a horse throws away regard for it's own safety, it will do it again. I have seen a lot of "one time rearers" turn bad fast, when someone cannot deal with them. And who would buy a horse who will flip over? If they can find a home for it, great. If not, and they can't fix it, it's not fair to the horse or the owner to keep him.

There is a lot of effort on this forum. We are all horse lovers, however we will not see someone hurt because of the pretty little pony. We did not say the horse is expendable or worthless. We did not say there was no reason. We said we don't know the circumstances, and examined the options. We never decided on one.

And since there doesn't seem to be enough to grasp on that subject, I'll say it again.

*No one, not myself nor anyone else, has made the definite decision regarding this horse.*


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

Alrighty.


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

thatkrayz said:


> The complete disregard for the lives of the animals you claim to "love" in this thread disgusts me. And the fact that NO ONE here is willing to admitt that a lot of major horse flaws derive from the flaws of their owners is ridiculous. Horses are trained by PEOPLE, it is us who make them, or break them.
> 
> Perhaps some people should take a look in the mirror and realize that their animals are only a reflection of themselves. I never seen a horse flip, rear, or even buck without a reason to do so. No matter how small or silly it may seem to the human eye. Whether is be pain, fear, extra energy, barn sour, buddy sour, or a mare in heat. There is always a reason for a horse to misbehave.


 
Yes, we love our horses; however, that doesn't mean that we are willing to risk someone getting hurt. The owner of this horse now has a responsiblity of telling any prospective buyers/trainers/handlers that this horse has reared and flipped over *no matter the cause*. This puts everyone in danger; it doesn't matter if its happened once or ten times. It happened. That's clearly a liability the owner does not want to have. I wouldnt either. She could love the horse immensely, but is that worth putting all those involved in danger? I think not.


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## thatkrayz (Apr 3, 2013)

Well, I wish this horse well, and hope that someone takes a chance in letting him survive to reach his full potential. If not, then I respect the owners decsion. While I don't condone or understand it, it _is _her property. This has been an educational conversation.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

thatkrayz said:


> Well, I wish this horse well, and hope that someone takes a chance in letting him survive to reach his full potential.* If not, then I respect the owners decsion. While I don't condone or understand it, it is her property.* This has been an educational conversation.


ANd that is just what it is, property, and the difference between humans and animals. 

I do not OWN any humans, but I do own horses, and with ownership comes responsibility, and with that comes dammed hard decisions.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

thatkrayz said:


> You simply proved my point. The RIDER did not correct the issue, and so she continued to rear.
> 
> Also, I said it was usually the rider's fault, not a definite always. Let's not quote incorrectly.
> 
> Your solution was to deal with the issue, retrain, and learn to work with the horse. NOT to put it down because of a flaw. That's all I'm stating.


I believe you took the wrong point of my post.

This horse may have had an issue before the lady bought him that did not show up until she owned him.

You expect a 60 year old to retrain him? I was 16 and "invincible," she is not that stupid.
And has been stated, many trainers will not work with a confirmed reared.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Retraining a rearer, a flipper is dangerous and not many peops want to risk it. I don't care what the reason for the rear and the flip, the horse has learned to do it and that is a vice which kills, in a split second. I saw a girl killed by a rearer when I was kid and I will never forget the blood coming out her ears. Temper pops I can handle, a horse that rears & flips over? Never, ever, not, no way! A 130K horse? I would seek out a trainer experienced in rearers, I would not let anyone else on the horse until I knew 100% that this horse's issues were resolved. Anything less is playing Russian Roulette.


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## JaphyJaphy (Nov 15, 2012)

thatkrayz said:


> I'm just surprised to see so little effort among "horse lovers" to at least attempt to stand up for this animal. One occurance, one possible accident, does not mean that a horse should be put down. The situation for this horses actions could be totally explainable, and yet everyone wants to talk about what a dangerous horse this is. He could have been in danger himself, depending on the people that were around him. Maybe people should look at the glass half-full for a moment before they decide that murder is the best option.


A horse rearing and flipping over is on the extreme end of "possible accidents". Regardless of the _cause_ of the horses actions, its behavior still makes it *very dangerous*. "Totally explainable" or not!

Murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another". Euthenasia is _not_. I find your assertion on that rather dramatic and incorrect.

I have had a horse rear and flip over on me once before, and I really hope it never happens again. It was terrifying, and I was extrememly lucky to not be fatally injured. And I still have quite a while before I hit 60.

I do not know the whole story, but from what I do know, I cannot blame the owner for chosing this option. Frankly, there is no guarantee that a rearer will ever be fully "cured", and I think it is very noble of her to consider euthanasia when she could simply sell the horse to an unsuspecting buyer to regain some of her investment.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Well, I'm not 60 yet, but it's getting a lot closer. 56 and very arthritic. If I get on a horse, I can not get off without a mounting block or help. None of my horses rear. If one of them ever does, unless it's something totally explainable and not a temper tantrum, then that horse will be gone one way or another. If I don't get hurt, then I'll probably feel kindly enough to euthanize it. If I get hurt, when I get home from the E.R. I may load it up and head for the auction or go straight to the meat guy. If I got killed, my husband would shoot it himself.


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## Lx3 (Jun 16, 2013)

NBEventer said:


> By law if your dog attacks someone it has to be PTS. Should the same not be true for a horse?



Hm, you might want to double check this fact. Maybe in your state but I know here if someone is bitten by a dog in my state the dog is quarantined for like 10 days to make sure it doesn't have rabies or anything of the like and then is released to the owner. 

Irrelevant, my only comment on this. 

Carry on 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lx3 (Jun 16, 2013)

Actually, I will say this. I am by no means anti slaughter and I fully understand the dangers of a rearer and flipper. I'm not trying to take sides and I'm not sure if this is even possible for the OP.. But in theory, couldn't you just retire the horse? Maybe make it just a pasture buddy? Broodmare? I guess you always run the risk of it ending up with someone who tries to hop on... Though with full disclosure that would be no fault of your own.

Idk, it'd just be a shame to have such a nice horse go to waste.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Nice horse or not, it's dangerous. 
I think some passionate posters have neglected to realize that this isn't OP's horse, so OP doesn't know anything 100%. So what we have been told might not be fact, this might _not_ be a one time thing, the horse _might_ be incredibly dangerous. Like another poster has said, people don't invest so much money into upper level show horses only to _not_ show them, that's a little red flag that there might be more to the story. Either way, if the owner decides to have the horse PTS because of bad behaviour that's her decision, end of story. 

Lx3, even with full disclosure the owner or previous owner can be blamed and for myself, personally, I would be less worried about the 'blame' and more worried about the possibility of someone being hurt or killed. That's the very reason I turned away young people willing to pay money for my rearer (and note, HIS rears were just little bunny hops, nowhere close to going high enough to flip). I was terrified some young girl would play trainer and get herself killed, I wasn't going to let it happen.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

alexischristina said:


> Nice horse or not, it's dangerous. ........
> 
> Like another poster has said, people don't invest so much money into upper level show horses only to _not_ show them, that's a little red flag that there might be more to the story.


There's 2 things here that I keep coming back to when I read this thread. 

The first one is, folks keep saying, "NICE" about this horse. IMO, once a horse rears and flips over ONCE, it's not a "NICE" horse. I don't care if it never rears again, sits around a campfire making baskets and singing Kumbayah, it's not trustworthy, EVER again, for me. 

The 2nd thing is the whole train it up to PSG level and it's never been shown, not even once? There's a WHOLE lot more to this story that we're not hearing. There's a REASON this horse hasn't been shown. And the it gets sold without the owner who spent all those wads of cash ever showing or having it shown even once? For $130K? Either a fool and their money got parted or.....??? 

There's a whole lot of this story we're not hearing.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Maybe it was $130? Not $130K.... just a thought lol.

Seriously though I highly doubt this horse has not been in the show ring if it was priced that high and trained to that level. 

Either that or we are getting a fabricated story. Or the OP is very young.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

NBEventer said:


> Either that or we are getting a fabricated story. Or the OP is very young.


The OP is a teenager, going by previous posts.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

The whole story isn't adding up...

The OP states said horse was trained to PSG but never shown prior to BO purchasing her. BO purchases her, has *somebody* show her last weekend and obtained a 67 but horse reared and flipped. 

Sooo.... someone took a horse that had never ever been to a showed and showed it at PSG level and obtained a 67??

Something is really missing here. I don't know ANYONE who who A) train a horse to PSG level without showing it. B) would take a horse to compete at PSG level without having shown at a schooling show, a training level, a low level, a SOMETHING just to see WTH the horse's response to being shown is! A horse's first show is generally somewhat of a disaster, not a rearing/flipping type of disaster but one where horse isn't performing as expected due to concern about an umbrella, a child bawling, tons of strange horses around, being at a strange location or whatever.... A first show is a learning experience for the horse and I don't know of anyone who chooses a PSG show for that!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I could be wrong here, but don't you need to "qualify" or something before being able to show FEI level dressage? I am fairly sure you can't just walk up and say "I am entering PSG" and then show.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> I could be wrong here, but don't you need to "qualify" or something before being able to show FEI level dressage? I am fairly sure you can't just walk up and say "I am entering PSG" and then show.


The horse may have been trained and schooling at PSG levels, but I doubt that's where they'd make their show ring debut. There's a lot that doesn't add up here. I'm starting to suspect that this was just a vehicle to poke the hornet's nest and see what popped out, and a chance to "abuse" folks who agreed with the purported BO.


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## ptvintage (Feb 12, 2010)

A horse like this is put down to protect innocents, like the OP and some of the posters in this thread, who refuse to acknowledge some of the more unpleasant sides to horses. 

Could it be managed? Possibly. Is it worth losing your life over? Never. It's like riding an amusement park ride that flies off the track 1% of the time. It will happen eventually.

If the owner left the horse alive and then she passed, that horse could end up anywhere and the new owners could have no idea. How many hands would it have to pass through and damage to make it worth ending the horse's life?


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The horse may have been trained and schooling at PSG levels, but I doubt that's where they'd make their show ring debut. There's a lot that doesn't add up here. I'm starting to suspect that this was just a vehicle to poke the hornet's nest and see what popped out, and a chance to "abuse" folks who agreed with the purported BO.


That is what I mean. Sure he may very well have been schooling that level. But you go to a show and sign up for PSG without and prior show record. 

I am in agreement that this is likely fabricated, or at the very least exaggerated in a HUGE way.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I've noticed that the OP hasn't come back to offer any clarity on the subject, though s/he is reading this thread right now according to my "currently active" banner....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> I've noticed that the OP hasn't come back to offer any clarity on the subject, though s/he is reading this thread right now according to my "currently active" banner....


Yep. So this keeps failing the "smell" test.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I guess since I've already subbed this topic by posting, I might as well offer my two cents, which is simple:

If a horse puts me or my family at a higher-than-normal risk, it goes. Hopefully, that will mean rehoming, but sometimes it doesn't.

I have my limit on behaviors - if it's something I don't feel confident handling, but could be safely fixed, I will pay the money for the horse to be trained by a professional trainer or re-home permanently with someone who can safely handle it and that I trust would not unload the horse on someone who would be in danger. This is not a horse that I would try to get money out of nor sell to just anyone.

I also have my limit on cost. I cannot afford a pasture pet at this point in my life. If I cannot re-home nor pay to fix the behavior, euthanasia is on the table and will only be chosen after much thought and consideration primarily for the horse and the ability for that horse to be cared for properly and not end up in a kill pen. If I cannot guarantee the horse a happy life here on earth, then it'll go be happy somewhere else where it won't be putting my family at risk.

I don't see this as being much different than my limit on vet bills either. I know that I can afford up to about $1000, maybe even $1500 in special circumstances, to take care of my baby. But should the estimated costs of treatment exceed that or the value of the horse (which is inflated, of course, my my own bias of how wonderful and amazing of a horse he is), then I'm prepared to take the less expensive option of euthanasia rather than put my family at financial risk.

I love horses enough to know when to have them PTS. It's a much kinder alternative to ending up in a kill pen, which is still kinder than becoming unloved and neglected.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Sounds like an envious teenager making a bit of an exaggeration on the 130k part, IMO.


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## ARTEMISBLOSSOM (Apr 3, 2011)

I have been reading this post with great interest and I think the owner of this horse is trying to do the responsible thing by wanting to put the horse down. Two years ago this weekend I was out riding my new horse and from a dead standstill he suddenly reared up and flipped over on me. I suppose there must have been warning signs but I never seen them and being 50 years old and not the most agile I didn't escape unhurt. in fact I am very lucky to be alive. As I laid in the ICU ward of the hospital for weeks trying to heal my broken body and shattered confidence I had a lot of time to think about things like if I was going to walk out of that hospital or if I would be a burden on my family the rest of my life. When I got out of the hospital do you think I kept that horse and risked my life or anyone else's ? No I did not. Because he was registered I was able to trace his previous owners and do you know what I found out from his original owner?? She sold him because she was terrified of him, he was very aggressive toward her and he reared all the time. She said she sold him with full disclosure but a few owners later I got him (and he was advertised as a kid safe trail horse) and nearly died. Rearing and flipping is just about the most dangerous thing a horse can do in my opinion and I don't think they can really ever be cured. There are just too many good horses out there to deal with a horse with such a dangerous habit. I have 2 safe gentle horses now and I have worked really hard to heal physically and emotionally but I don't think I will ever completely get my confidence back. it really makes me angry to think someone would knowingly sell what is in essence a ticking time bomb to an innocent person just to make a few bucks.


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