# Guessing what colour this filly will be?



## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

At first I thought a number of different colours, from smoky blacks to bays and ending with even buckskins. But as she has started to shed off her winter coat this year, I noticed some white hairs mixed with her base coat colour on ONE of her legs (left front).
I'm a little confused about them, as if she is a bay - shouldn't she have all four legs with 'dark points ?

sire is a dark bay, with both parents bay aswell.
dam of the filly is bay aswell, but the dams father is dun (with greyish mane, he is registered as a grey though). Dam's mother is a black horse, who has a grey and a black parent.
Probably some cream gene is acting on the filly from the dams side, or maybe a grey gene? Though its funny, when visibly both parents are just bay. Any opinions on what colour she could be?








More pictures of her in my album.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A horse can only be grey if their sire or dam or grey. It doesn't hide and doesn't skip generations. 

Do you have any better pics of her than what are in your album and also some pics of her dam and sire?


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Her sire:








the sire's father can be seen here.
no picture records of mother sadly.

Her dam:
















Dam's father is here.
Dam's mother's picture is here.


I'll do some more pictures of the filly tomorrow, I hope that's okay. 
Still, any opinions based on the pictures so far?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am tending toward brown to be honest. I can see what looks like a bit of lightening around her muzzle area, and a touch of it on her flank too. However, I am not willing to say for certain without waiting for the pics lol


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I would guess that she will shed out similar to the sire. I dont believe grey _or_ dun skip generations. They need to be passed directly from parent to offspring.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> I would guess that she will shed out similar to the sire. I dont believe grey _or_ dun skip generations. They need to be passed directly from parent to offspring.



I am voting brown too. BTW the sire is a brown not a bay. Cream does not skip generations or 'hide' either.

And not that it matters here, but the dam's sire IS a gray.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks for the opinions  Seems legit, about her being brown. Just the white hairs on her leg are still quite interesting, for me at least. It may be that she's just shedding her coat like that, but still.

These are the pictures from today:









Thought, I'm not a professional or anything, but I talked about her with someone who has been breeding horses for quite a while. She said that actually, she could have a cream gene acting on her coat. So I don't know what to belive.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Well she is interesting for sure! In the recent photo she almost looks like a grulla. Does she have a dark dorsal stripe? I am seeing what looks like leg barring on her front leg? Does then dam have a dorsal? Could Mom be a bay dun (you did say her sire was dun before he grayed out, so it would be possible)? I look forward to seeing more photos as she sheds out. And I am not sure what is causing the roaning in her leg either.

Do you have any photos from behind where we can see her back? Of her Mom's?


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

*e th*

Both she and her dam have a dorsal stripe  It could be very possible that the dam is a bay dun, i guess, is there any other way to know for sure except the stripe? I can try to find more pictures if needed.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dam is not dun, she is brown. She has no dun factor at all.

As for the breeder that you spoke to, completely disregard what she said. There is NO way that your mare could be cream. Cream doesn't skip a generation. It can't. Cream is a partial dominant - one copy dilutes the coat a little, two copies dilute the coat a lot. Because it is dominant, it can't be "carried". If the horse has cream, they HAVE to display it.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I agree that the mare would not be typical expression for a dun and shows little dun factor, however, IMO, the filly would not be typical expression for brown as she is shedding out either. Chiilaa what do you make of the recent photo of her?

OP do you have photos of the filly from last summer as a foal?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's a tough photo to form any judgement on. The parts I would look at to see brown are the muzzle and eyes and the flank. The face being front on to the camera means I can't really see anything there, and the flank is shadowed.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Kyro said:


> Both she and her dam have a dorsal stripe  It could be very possible that the dam is a bay dun, i guess, is there any other way to know for sure except the stripe? I can try to find more pictures if needed.



A dorsal stripe is only one of many traits that dun horses will usually have. Dun also dilutes the body color, usually gives leg barring and sometimes shoulder bars. The problem is that many horses that Are NOT dun also have a stripe down he back and we all it counter shading. MANY foals show counter shading at birth that has nothing to do with being dun. Dun is dominant gene and can not skip a generation either. usually in true duns the dorsal stripe will be visible and run through the top part of the tail and have very crisp, defined edges, where as counter shading usually ends at the tail and may have less sharp edges.

So even though your mare may have a dorsal she really does not show these other traits as far as I can tell in the photos. I would be curious to see the fillys dorsal, as the leg barring and mousy grey color has me confused.

Dun Central Station - Home Page has lots of photos and info about dun gene.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm currently checking out the 'Dun Central Station', very interesting. I can definatly see why the dam could be a bay dun, even though I have always thought of her as a regular bay. 

Here is a picture of the filly last summer:









This year:









The dorsal stripe is sort of faint though..but it might be because she is still partly covered with her winter 'baby coat'. 









I sadly don't have a picture of the dams dorsal.
I think I might agree with people who think she is brown. As I have some pictures of her in autumn, when she's starting to grow her winter coat - where there is no dorsal stripe at all, she is brown-ish all over. I'm thinking she will grow out of it. Also, I notice her coat has darkened since last summer. 
I'm actually considering learning colour genetics, as I really love guessing colours and how genes work etc. So this is another reason why I'm so interested in this. 
That being said, I really would love to know how she can have that leg with white hairs. 

Tryst, I don't actually think it's leg barring, at least it doesn't seem to make a pattern. It looks exactly like she's going grey or roaning.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Dam is not dun, she is brown. She has no dun factor at all.
> 
> As for the breeder that you spoke to, completely disregard what she said. There is NO way that your mare could be cream. Cream doesn't skip a generation. It can't. Cream is a partial dominant - one copy dilutes the coat a little, two copies dilute the coat a lot. Because it is dominant, it can't be "carried". If the horse has cream, they HAVE to display it.


Sorry but, how can the dam be brown? In my eyes she has always been bay - because of her black points. This is the first time ever anybody has said that she is brown, so it's a little shock to me. Could you explain?

EDIT: I just noticed something very interesting. The dams registered colour is grey. Either the people who registered her made a huge typo or she will start to grey out.. The dam is 6 years old at the moment. This is getting weird


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## Jacksmama (Jan 27, 2010)

That's a pretty distinct dorsal, when its just counter shading isn't it normally wider and kind of fade on the edges? I may be imagining it but it almost looks like there is some leg barring coming in on the left front in the pic above...?


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Well I am still not sure... sometimes the dorsal is thin and sometimes thick  There is a dun marker test where you send in hair for DNA testing

Is that the mom in the background of the 1st photo above? It does appear that the dorsal goes into the tail, but she isn't a normal dilution of coat color that you see in bay dun and her legs don't show any indicators at all. 

Attached I marked where I am seeing possible leg barring. I darkened it slightly in a photo editing program too to show where I am seeing it better. It has nothing to do with the white hairs coming in on that leg, but is faint areas of light and dark barring higher up on the leg. It is not really distinct, but appears in both recent photos. 

Most likely she is 'just brown' (usually the simple answer is the correct one  but I don't personally find her to be a typical expression or shade at all. I hope you will post more photos once she sheds out so we can see her in her summer cloths.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Also found this picture, if it helps anything  This is the most recent picture of the dam, taken yesterday. Her coat is darker because the sun is behind her, but if you look closely you can actually see spots on her shoulder. 









EDIT: Yes, that's the mom in the background. She herself doesn't have any leg barring that I'm aware of, as well as her dorsal isn't as visible as the filly's. 
You made the barring quite clear there and it surely would be 'awesome' if she would end up to have fancy legs like that  
I agree that the best way is just to wait and see. Maybe I'll try to keep this thread updated with some pictures from time-to-time, just so I can monitor the progress and you guys can check if you were right - if you happen to stumble here again


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Dam is not gray. Apparently as a foal with one gray parent they thought she would gray out. It can be difficult to tell in young foals if they will gray or not and apparently they registered your mare thinking that she would (which she obviously hasn't).


The 'spots on her shoulder' are just dappling as far as I can tell, however it does depict why Chiilaa calls her 'brown' better. See those light areas behind her armpit, in her flank and inside her hind leg? In bay those would be the same color as her body. In brown they are lighter, like in your mare. Many 'bays' are, in fact, brown. Brown can range from very dark (almost black with just lighter 'soft' areas), to lighter like the mare.

And no I doubt the fily's leg bars will get that dark, I was just trying to show you where I was seeing possible barring. They may go away full when she is done shedding - they could just be an illusion created by how she is shedding out.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Brown seems like the most appropriate color possibility. That baby does looks like my Grey kids in coloring though. I know baby would have to have a grey parent & seeing the mare is older and does yet look to be greying that possiblity is kinda shot out the window.I know unlikely at this age but Does the mare show any signs of greying?? I know had a friend that sold her Buckskin mare overseas as a 4 yr old,Hmm wasn't both she & the new owner surprised when she shed out grey the next spring:shock:


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

paintedpastures said:


> Brown seems like the most appropriate color possibility. That baby does looks like my Grey kids in coloring though. I know baby would have to have a grey parent & seeing the mare is older and does yet look to be greying that possiblity is kinda shot out the window.I know unlikely at this age but Does the mare show any signs of greying?? I know had a friend that sold her Buckskin mare overseas as a 4 yr old,Hmm wasn't both she & the new owner surprised when she shed out grey the next spring:shock:


Sadly my memory is quite blank at the moment, as I don't remember her having any white hairs last summer. But I shall check her next time I'm going to the stable : )


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dam's dorsal is due to countershading, not dun. See how it's all blurry and spreads out. Also, the filly's dorsal is countershading too. A dun dorsal stays all year, in all coat changes.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Dam's dorsal is due to countershading, not dun. See how it's all blurry and spreads out. Also, the filly's dorsal is countershading too. A dun dorsal stays all year, in all coat changes.


Agree looks more like countershading:wink:. I had a Black overo stud. His baby pics he looked like a Grullo.every year In spring before shedding all his hair he also looked like a Grullo,he had a definite Black dorsal.Whenever his black would fade on his body he always retained that black dorsal & black points in his legs. There was no Dun Gene obvious in his parentage.


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

A question for you all that I think may have an obvious answer:

Duns are born with their dorsal stripes, yes?

We have a baby in our herd off a dun mare with the same robicano dusting on her tailhead as her mom, but no dorsal. I'm thinking she's going to be sorrel or bay? I'm totally ignorant of these things, though.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you got a side on of this foal Hemms?


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Sure do:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That one is for sure a bay foal.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Hemms, what colour is the sire? If black or grey, the foal could shed out to be either of those colours too 

I'm in love with this site here.
It has really good pictures and info about foals and what colour they might be. Maybe it will help?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Kyro - No. Hemms' foal is a bay with 100% typical bay presentation.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Kyro - No. Hemms' foal is a bay with 100% typical bay presentation.


Absolutely, the foal does look like a bay, and probably is one. Though, if her sire is grey, then correct me if I'm wrong but there'd be a 50% chance of a grey filly.
EDIT: Oh, my bad, forgot about the 'has to have dark skin'


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Kyro said:


> Absolutely, the foal does look like a bay, and probably is one. Though, if her sire is grey, then correct me if I'm wrong but there'd be a 50% chance of a grey filly.
> EDIT: Oh, my bad, forgot about the 'has to have dark skin'


What about dark skin..? 


Yes, if one parent was a gray, there would either be a 50% chance of the foal being gray also if the parent was heterozygous and a 100% chance if the parent is homozygous. However, there usually giveaways as very young foals that it might gray, such as "goggles" around the eyes.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> What about dark skin..?
> 
> 
> Yes, if one parent was a gray, there would either be a 50% chance of the foal being gray also if the parent was heterozygous and a 100% chance if the parent is homozygous. However, there usually giveaways as very young foals that it might gray, such as "goggles" around the eyes.


Hmm, just educated myself some. Yes, I did think that gray horses would be born with black or darkish skin and legs for some reason. But turns out they can literally look like anything before graying. Oh well. I'm tired and obviously not thinking things clearly


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks for the help!

The mare belongs to a boarder of mine. Sweet 16 YO girl who bought her first horse totally unaware there was even a stud on the seller's property, let alone that her sweet mare was preggo. I was 1/2 expecting a mule baby! No idea what sire was. 

This is the second year in a row this has happened here... what is with newbie luck in my barn? If only one of my geldings would get knocked up. Dream barn, here I come!


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Today, I did some more photoshooting, to keep this updated. 

I discovered some light leg barring on the dams front legs and occasional white hairs in her rump, but the white hairs looked quite normal and you really can't see them unless you look closely. I think that she won't grey out and her coat colour will remain beautiful like it is 

Funny thing about the foal, is that she does appear to have the leg barring that Tryst suggested before. I guess I can't see for sure until she has shedded her whole coat.
Now, the coat itself is shedding in a pretty creative way, making my eyes believe she has dapples (when obviously she doesnt lol). 

The white hairs on her leg, though, have spread and you can see some brown mixed in there. The blaze running across her face has started 'spreading' too, towards one eye. Pictures:

















Dam's legs:









Random:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

IMO filly is grulla and dam is dun.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Filly looks to be a bay to me.


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Your filly looks just like my dappling grullo boy (coat luster is a marker of good health). He's shedding out just like her. 

I'd say her mom is a dun, too and passed the gene on to her filly. She'd be a _very_ light bay and those bars speak loud and clear, to my mind.

Very popular colours and marketable, unfortuantely... lol!


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

Just updating for the fun of it, here she is with her winter coat almost completely shed out.
The rearing pic was just cute


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

Pretty filly


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