# Improving a Rough Lope.



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I've looked up a few other threads on this and none are exactly the same, so I figured I'd ask.

My mare pickles has a rough lope. She is an appaloosa that is dreamfinder\coolest dream bred on the top and three dimension zip on the bottom. Here is a bit of history for you.

Got her off a great breeder I really like when she was 10months, and I've done all the work with her. Never had a lame day. I left her till she was 3, put a few rides on her late into the fall and then left her for the winter. She is definitely a late bloomer and just didn't seem to be ready for much. I startedher in the spring as a four year old and started very light. Focus was on getting her out and about. Lots of long sslow miles at a w/t with a bit of loping. Her lope wasn't terrible, but definitely not as forward and coordinated as the thoroughbreds and Arabs I'm used to. I chalked it up to her age/inexperience/breeding and figured it would get better as a 5 year old. Which brings us to the present.

She's had light riding all winter and the footing has finally been good enough to cover some miles again in the last 3 ish weeks. Well her lope is horrid. I'm not sure if its just fitness or ?. I struggled for ages and finally have a saddle that fits perfect. She feels a lot more mature and sure of herself this year. She has a lovely silky slow trot and a ground covering extended trot. No visible pain or stiffness. She lopes with her head down loose reins, no rushing at all. Its horrid to sit, major work out to move with her, and this is coming from someone who rides bouncy Arabs, big moving thoroughbreds and not so smooth drafts. I never thought a lope would be more work than posting a big trot, but this one really is a lot of work. Other than that she is willing, sure footed and happy. A total joy to work with that loves her job.

So suggestions? Transitions? Half halts? More miles? Hill work?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I sure know that the Three Dimension Zips are good movers, having bred to that stud, and knowing all the great pleasure horses he has produced.
Three Dimension Zip is double pleasure bred (Zippo Pine Three and Dynanic Deluxe
Of course, you have halter horse breeding on the top. There are still people that believe if you breed a pleasure horse to a halter horse, you get a pretty mover, when in fact, you might get neither a halter nor a pleasure horse
So, without seeing your horse move, ahard to tell if the horse can be a good loper.
Doug Carpenter calls the lope the 'money gear' Almost any horse can have his jog improved with training, but great lopers are born, and we only refine that natural ability
You are talking western, so first of all, how is her jog?
Long trotting is great for strength building, but even an extended jog is not a trot
Forget the loose rein, until you have the movement
My hubby's trail horse goes on a loose rein, but I can assure you that the horse knows nothing about moving collected and in frame on that loose rein
That loose rein is an end result, after a horse has learned true collection, able to keep frame and topline off of legs and seat alone
Your horse sounds no where near ready for that
To lope great, a horse needs several basics on him, Shoulder and hip control, plus knowing how to give softly in the face
You thus can set the horse up for agood lead departure, and if the first strides of that lope are correct, then so will thew rest of that lope be, prviidng you know when to hold with reins, drive with legs and release when the horse is correct.
Conversely, just fall into that lope out of forward momentum, you will have a horse on his forhand, fast legged, which alone make that lope rough, regardless of natural ability tro move flat kneed, deep hocked and slow legged


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

First, I want to say I love that picture of the extended trot. Does pickles look that good with a rider on her back? You should understand that, because of their conformation, horses that perform extended gaits well cannot perform shortened work as well and vise versa. Also, horses that work well in freedom will need to learn how to move as well when carrying a rider.

Your first picture shows a Western saddle and you mention the “lope” rather than the “canter”. While the footfalls are the same, some people consciously make a distinction between the two. Are you trying to get a “Western Pleasure” type of look and movement or simply a good three-beat gait?

Do you have any images of pickles cantering on her own? Such images could give an indication of what kind of canter or lope she is capable if free to move her body as she wills. Of course, her movements would need to be refined to be able to perform with good movement while carrying a rider. 

Development of the strength and flexibility of the hindquarters is important to enable a horse to balance with its center of gravity more towards the rear. In addition, the flexibility of the back as well as the hind legs can assist in producing movement that is powerful, smooth, and shock absorbing.

The outside hind leg in the lope or canter will remain straighter as it acts as a pivot receiving the weight of the horse after the suspension phase and transferring this weight to the diagonal pair. The inside hind leg of the diagonal pair, however, should be flexible and strong enough to provide shock absorbing ability, weight carrying ability, and a powerful driving force.

More miles of cantering alone will not produce what you want. Such an approach would probably only reinforce what you are already experiencing. A horse is generally best balanced during the first few strides of the canter, so transition work would be useful. Half-halts can prove useful in regaining and maintaining balance if the horse is capable of such balance in the first place. Hill climbing can help develop the strength of a horse’s hindquarters.

For nearly three centuries, lateral exercises have been used to help develop the strength and flexibility of a horse’s hindquarters. This is especially true of the shoulder-in, the haunches-in and the haunches-out if performed properly. 

I will point out that some Western riders reject the use of such exercises feeling that using them would somehow indicate that “English” riding is better than “Western” riding. It is important to realize that these exercises were not designed as movements for “Dressage” competition. They were designed as exercises to develop the strength and flexibility of any horse to allow them to perform as needed in the arena, on the battle field, during the hunt, or for any other purpose. 

Football players have been known to take ballet lessons to improve their performance on the football field. Were these players indicating that ballet is superior to football? Were they less “football” oriented than other players? Shouldn’t an individual feel free to use any tool or exercise that will help improve either themselves or their horses?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd love to see a video of her moving, w/o rider and with.


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## waymire01 (Mar 13, 2015)

Just based on the photos I see an underdeveloped neck which is slightly upside down (more muscle under than over) and she looks stiff in the poll and withers, topline is a bit weak as well. All of which is typical for a green horse. I would start with working on flexibility and balance while building the muscle she needs to carry you properly. Cantering wrong will only build the wrong muscle. Lots of correct lateral flexion, serpentines, some hills couldn't hurt (start slow or it could). Not necessarily arena work, you can certainly do it out in the open, but you need somewhere you can wander not a confined trail. In hand work at the walk and trot would be a great start.. nice bend in a circle, yield haunches while moving forward, bring the forehand through, change bend, continue. If she is out of balance, stiff, and weak she could possibly be counter cantering behind and that feels awful to ride. Set up the bend first, then canter out of it. Simple change (trot) then go the other way. See if you can find a helper to video you or at least watch, that can really help see what is actually going on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with TX horseman, that conformation plays a major role in how smooth a horse can move, as does strength building.
I do not agree that a horse that can collect and move slow legged with a shorter stride, as in western pl, cannot also move out and extend.
Many of my horses that I have shown all around, have certainly proven that point incorrect!
It is also not true that great western training programs, never let a western pleasure horse move out, or use body control type exercises to build strength and ability to hold that correct lope
In fact, it takes a heck of a lot more strength and ability to perform a true three beat lope while moving slow, and why a four beat lope is the result of a western pl horse being asked to move slower at the lope, then he has the strength or training, to do so, yet move true. The four beat lope is entirely man made
Any horse can perform a true three beat lope, moving on, and why the lope is what defines a great western pl horse from the 'want to bes.
I know many western pleasure trainers that use long trotting, with the horse using himself correctly, half passing , and many other such exercises to train pleasure horses
Nothing wrong with using any of the basic body control concepts used in dressage-that is not the conflict.
What is the problem, is never advancing to the point where that horse learns total self carriage, without constant rein support
If you always train, without that total loose rein, when the horse is moving correctly, the horse cannot learn to stay correct, or rate speed, without rein support-that is the key difference, and not the basic body control , between western and dressage.
Certainly, a horse has to know how to move with true collection, versus loping on his forehand, in order to have a key component of a smooth lope- and that includes trianing, strenght building, 'ya da, ya da'
BUT, if all those things are in place, which I doubt the case is here, there is a great deal of difference in the smoothness of that lope, due to breeding and natural ability. I should know, as I used to ride working bred stock horses, that were very broke, but could not come close to smoothness, as my well bred pleasure horses, no matter how broke or condtioned
Smilie has won ROMs in western pl (non pro and open ), yet I have also won large open English classes against TB's and other more traditional English horses, under a judges with a dressage or English background, which mor eor less dis proves the idea that if a horse can execute a good length of stride, then he is not capable of moving with a shorter stride, or visa versa
I admit that there are some western pl horses that have been trained with the spur stop, and thus become a' one pony show', , being intimidated to move out.
The spur stop, in this case, is not just rating a horse with your legs, but actually have that spur into the horse the entire time, esp at the lope, to the point scars are left.
Another great controversy , and which is being spoken out against, with judges not to use those horses any more that the former 'peanut rollers'
I really get a bit upset, when the picture is put out there, that all a western pl horse is ever taught, is to move around that rail slow, with a head set, and that picture comes from people that have never picked up a DVD by top western pleasure trainers that proves this notion is completely off the wall!
Before assuming western pl horses are never taught to move out, do lateral exercises, long trotted, counter cantered, please read some books by people like Doug Carpenter, Dana Hockana , Steve Hechaman, etc


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If the horse has a back, pelvis, hoof, saddle issue, that will make it harder for her to move well, often esp at a canter. Chiropractic check/treatment mightn't go astray.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

loosie said:


> If the horse has a back, pelvis, hoof, saddle issue, that will make it harder for her to move well, often esp at a canter. Chiropractic check/treatment mightn't go astray.


This first. Then, if all is well, it's spring and your prime opportunity to carefully work her in a disked field, with the owners permission.

It's how we put the smooth in all my grandad's horses when we were training them.

If she seems to be a jiggy horse, she may very have the ability to gait (The Indian Shuffle). She is a beautiful horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> This first. Then, if all is well, it's spring and your prime opportunity to carefully work her in a disked field, with the owners permission.
> 
> It's how we put the smooth in all my grandad's horses when we were training them.
> 
> If she seems to be a jiggy horse, she may very have the ability to gait (The Indian Shuffle). She is a beautiful horse


I remember this horse from another board, and assume it is the same "Pickles', as the Breeding is all familar Alberta bloodlines
I doubt she can single foot, as her bottom side a mare from Three Dimension Zip, a well known AQHA modern bred pleasure horse

The top is strong Appaloosa modern halter breeding. 
The Appaloosas that gait, are strongly foundation bred, and that gaiting is credited to the Spanish Jennet

I used to cross halter horses with riding horses, when I first started breeding, and while that works at some times, it is not the best way to try and get a good riding horse.
Way back when, I bred to an Appaloosa son of AQHA world halter champion-Crimson War . Very attractive horse with loads of ability.
We kept him as a stallion, and since I was pregnant when it was time to start him, sent 'Rambo' to a well known AQHA trainer.
Soon as he knew his breeding-he said-well, some of those halter horses ride!
Same trainer, I also complained to, far as the direction halter horses were going. His answer, ' halter people have a right to breed what they want, just like you, and it in no way affects you if you, as a performance rider, breeds like to like' That was a very important learning curve for me, and _followed his advise form then on_
I'm not saying that some horses half halter bred can't make good riding horses, nor that is the problem here, it is just not apoint to completely ignore , when looking at all possible parameters for that rough lope, besides the obvious reason of some physical problem, training level and conditioning


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> Never had a lame day.
> 
> No visible pain or stiffness.


I agree with Loosie. If your horse has never been checked by a lameness vet or a chiro, you should at least do it to rule it out. 

Just because a horse doesn't act lame (ex: limping or head bobbing) does not mean there ISN'T a problem ... and could just mean you have a _very_ tolerating horse!

Also, when were her teeth done last?


I had a horse once who had a HORRIBLE lope. Super high strung horse, but such a sweetheart and he taught me so much (his ears NEVER left your attention). But my goodness, that horse couldn't lope to save his life. It was like he was a bunny rabbit. I hated loping him because it was uncomfortable. I rode him every single day for an entire summer and it never got better. 

Looking back now, I wonder if he did have a back problem that made him move that way. I didn't know any better at the time so I didn't check. Never took a lame step either. He was in great physical shape. There was only 1 time that he loped like a normal horse (and I was in shock when it happened); but other than that, he never figured it out (and I guess neither did I). 


So it could be because your horse isn't in the greatest shape and needs to build muscle in order to be able to carry herself nicely .... or she might have back pain (that you should check out) .... or it just might be the way she is. 

Do you have a video you can post?


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

I was thinking cross cantering .....I had a QH that was notorious for it (old injury made him prone to right leads in the rear) See if you can get a video of it in a round pen and then under saddle... some times, not always...it's done out of discomfort. Sometimes it's simply a young horse that needs collection and time.


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## waymire01 (Mar 13, 2015)

IndianaJones said:


> I was thinking cross cantering .....I had a QH that was notorious for it (old injury made him prone to right leads in the rear) See if you can get a video of it in a round pen and then under saddle... some times, not always...it's done out of discomfort. Sometimes it's simply a young horse that needs collection and time.


One of my first rehabs was a 8yr old paint mare that cross cantered horribly. We had her checked out top to bottom (chiro, vet, farrier) and no one could find a thing wrong with her.. she was just kept in a pen and bred for her entire life and never learned to use herself properly. If it is CC be careful how tight a circle you ask for.. this particular mare got her feet tangled up and fell flat on her face with me on her back in a 50ft round.. very nasty wreck. Neither of us were seriously hurt (I have a tendency to stick and wound up sliding down her neck onto the ground with her bridle in one hand and the reins under both her front legs) just lots of scrapes and bruises for both of us, but it scared the heck out of me. Even now 20 years later I have an 80ft round. She did figure it out eventually with lots of serpentines, lateral movement, and collection at the trot to build muscle, balance, and coordination.. followed by lots of trot/canter and walk/canter transitions.


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm all about the big round pens!! I can't imagine the falling!! Mine would trip in the rear...which can be just as bad.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't have a video.
Yes Smile, it is the same horse. 

Thank you all for your advice.her teeth were just done. I'm pretty sure at this point she is just maturing and finding her balance. We are focusing on some arena work this week and we'll see how it goes.

I was surprised at her breeding when I first got her, and I never would of thought to cross the two, but her breeder is experienced and knew what he was doing. You absolutely cannot beat her disposition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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