# Belle and Snickers, the EPSM mare divas



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Today I:

Fired my farrier
Moved my horses to a paddock that will not include grass turnout
Began to get things together to make a Freedom Feeder for the horses to slow graze their hay
Began to order the necessary vit/min supplements to change their diets over completely.
Found a recommended barefoot farrier to start a 4 week cycle trim until I can take over later, after all of the overwhelming diet changes.

I would say it was quite productive.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

*Snicker’s Diet​*
Uckele-Thompson Custom 11/12 (1 105g scoop daily)
•	Phosphorus	7g
•	Zinc 1056mg
•	Copper 354mg
•	Selenium	1gm
•	Magnesium	3g
•	Manganese	1041mg
•	Biotin 30mg
•	Flaxseed Meal	60g

Gateway Su-Per Psyllium Whole Blond Husk Powder (daily)

Anti-Carb

Alfalfa Pellets (only ¼” sun-cured)

3 Tablespoons iodized salt

4000iU + Vit E (d-alpha or dl-alpha)

Beet Pulp (shredded, no molasses)….no need to rinse.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle:









Snickers:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Subbing!!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle's feet the day she was rescued....









Hooves after first trims:


















Belle's extremely thin soles:










Belle's been shod for a year. This was her feet in January 2013:


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Freedom Feeder nets used in a boarding situation where the BO needs to be able to just throw hay inside without securing nets.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Subbing!!!!


Desert...got your messege....she said she's reply tonight.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Great, thanks 
love the net,, btw. I guess I can make that.....;-).... once I don't have to soak my hay anymore.... at the moment we're working on a hay soaker with room for three nets, a spigot and a contraption for draining the nets. I found out 5 lbs of hay get awfully heavy when soaked.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Great, thanks
> love the net,, btw. I guess I can make that.....;-).... once I don't have to soak my hay anymore.... at the moment we're working on a hay soaker with room for three nets, a spigot and a contraption for draining the nets. I found out 5 lbs of hay get awfully heavy when soaked.....


Yes, such a simple, cheap design....just add a board and eye hooks, secure with zip ties! On pipe corral, just attach with zip ties. I did my 'flood emergency' pipe corral yesterday with my regular nibble net and zip ties. It would definitely help you with soaking!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

When I started taking Snickers off of her high fat diet, she became extremely cranky. So much so that I didn't recognize her attitude. Very scary, different horse, but understandable. I was leading her, asked her for a trot to check her legs, and she was resistant and bit my arm! She was also doing a lot of kicking at her belly and more nuzzling of her barrel than usual. She is very sensitive, wanting me to rub and scratch her all around her barrel and belly.

I hadn't been able to work her for a few days, not that she could do much anyway since her relapse. Her attitude was much better and seemed back to normal. I decided yesterday to take her on a trail ride, at the walk only, and ready to get off at any time to lead her. She seemed fine. The junk in her trunk was maybe a little more exaggerated and loose, so we took it slow on the two inclines we faced. She seemed to adjust her hind end along the way, not unusual, just a little more often maybe. We only walked, so I did not see her trot or canter yesterday.

I am interested in putting up their Freedom Feeder nets and try and get them to slow their eating down and eat more all day. I'm wondering how the glucose ups and down may be a part of this.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

My guess would be that a stay flow would guarantee steady availability for the muscles to utilize vs. ups and downs due to a feeding schedule, where she ends on empty for some time between feedings. Like I said, my best guess.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Girls are all moved into their new paddock. Just waiting on the Freedom Feeder nets in the mail for their hay.

Since I wasn't aware about the iron being so high in CA, I never paid attention to iron. So, who knows how much extra I have been feeding mine with their feed AND the nice himalayan salt lick and natural mineral salt lick I bought for them. Would never have even thought about iron in them too! So, I've been pretty much ODing my horses on iron.

I read a quote from Dr. Kellon saying the following about iron toxicity:

"The outwardly obvious symptoms {of iron overload} are often caused by secondary deficiencies of copper and zinc, compounded in many cases by actual primary deficiencies too. Bleaching of coats/manes/tails, "rings" of light colored hair around the eyes of horses with dark faces, low grade chronic skin problems, easy loss of hair under areas in contact with tack, unexplained (by level of work) joint fillings or tendon and ligament insertion site problems (e.g. high suspensory, sesamoiditis, extensor process proliferations, calcifications at insertion sites of the distal sesamoidean ligaments, collateral ligament calcifications, ringbone with no obvious conformational or trim cause), poor hoof quality and white line issues, exaggerated inflammatory responses to minor injuries. If you have all of these rolled into one horse, be highly suspicious--I've seen this. The individual problems though can have other causes. If you really want to know, test."

I am curious to see if Snicker's mid-line 'sweet itch' goes away once her iron levels go down.

Ordered the min/vit supplement today. Takes about two weeks.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Apparently it's not only iron what is responsible for sweet itch, it's a general mineral imbalance and too rich feed. Sweet itch occurs mainly on so called robust breeds.... ponies, some drafts, Arabians, all those with origin with poor vegetation. So,I think feeding them" simple" is already if big help. The two I had improved greatly when fed nothing processed, very little grain, and had the possibility to stay away from the bugs dusk and dawn. Greatly means from no mane and tail to full mane and tail within one year.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Apparently it's not only iron what is responsible for sweet itch, it's a general mineral imbalance and too rich feed. Sweet itch occurs mainly on so called robust breeds.... ponies, some drafts, Arabians, all those with origin with poor vegetation. So,I think feeding them" simple" is already if big help. The two I had improved greatly when fed nothing processed, very little grain, and had the possibility to stay away from the bugs dusk and dawn. Greatly means from no mane and tail to full mane and tail within one year.


Awesome....I hope this getting their diet straight helps. Funny, she came from this place that was horribly run down and gross and wasn't fed anything special. I really don't remember the sweet itch....I could be wrong, and just wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember it as bad. In Lemoore, we had a very bad problem with several horses, a few of them much worse than mine. We thought maybe neck thread worms. But nothing ever worked. Then we thought all the crop duster chemicals. A couple of those horses moved away, and their problem disappeared. Snickers isn't as bad now, but it's bad enough. Only time will tell now.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, the itch is triggered by the saliva of the gnats,. which are most active dusk and dawn, and like a certain environment also. My one mare came from pasture on a creek, was always very round in summer and rather thin in winter. No bugs in winter there,so.... The other one from flat open land, but also water nearby and not kept clean, and rather tight with hay and grass, but generous with sweet feed, because she was constantly pregnant and/ or lactating. Both had dark sheds available, just like they had at my place. 
You will no by next summer, if there is a change with the itch.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Well, the itch is triggered by the saliva of the gnats,. which are most active dusk and dawn, and like a certain environment also. My one mare came from pasture on a creek, was always very round in summer and rather thin in winter. No bugs in winter there,so.... The other one from flat open land, but also water nearby and not kept clean, and rather tight with hay and grass, but generous with sweet feed, because she was constantly pregnant and/ or lactating. Both had dark sheds available, just like they had at my place.
> You will no by next summer, if there is a change with the itch.


Yep, we will see, all I can do. Funny though, sometimes I think Snickers was healthier, despite where she came from, before i adopted her and stuffed her with all this stuff!! lol.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

not so far fetched.... hubby keeps saying that about my IR horse, too.... two flakes of oat hay a day...., slim and trim, but certainly no IR....;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Soooooo, new farrier came out today....poor thing, she tried so hard with Belle. But, she is simply scared of her and not strong enough to trim her. If it wasn't for my friend Maren there to direct her and help her....it never would have happend. Just getting the two shoes off took forever. But, she is done and I'm very happy.

Snickers is easy, her feet are easy.

Needless to say, I will, for sure, be doing my own trimming now.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Awesome article written by Pete Ramey....

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/support-files/feeding-the-hoof.pdf


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Feeling happy, happy, happy!!!!

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/support-files/barefoot-option-draft-horse.pdf


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

great article!

oh, and when you get your tools, get some gloves, too. No need for battle scars;-)

One of my favorite sites on hooftrimming is Bare Foot Horse


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> great article!
> 
> oh, and when you get your tools, get some gloves, too. No need for battle scars;-)
> 
> One of my favorite sites on hooftrimming is Bare Foot Horse


I have everything I need already from a couple years ago in Lemoore.

I did learn to get arm guards used in archery when using a loop knife!!!....similar to this.....

100 Handmade Arm Protector Guard Archery Protective Cow Leather Useful | eBay


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oooohh, nice .....I never even get this far up....I chop a piece of my thumb off or rasp my knuckles lol


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle currently would fit a size #6 Easyboot Epic. Waiting a week or so to see if her hooves spread out after shoes being removed. :wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

They were in decent shape for shod hooves. So you know we need pics of the barefoot beauties


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, they were MUCH better than expected, after the shoes finally came off...NOT an easy job. The laminae looked pretty in tack. Only one small area at the toe with a little fungal pocket. Found a little area where the sole was growing around a piece of gravel. Frogs in decent shape...could be much worse.
It was only the past few months that I started to notice the heel bulbs starting to pinch. Toe was waaaaaaaaaaay long. I got before pics (not very good ones), but forgot afters with all the commotion. I'll get some.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

The ex farrier did a pretty good job on that horrendous crack, tho. See how she" rolled" the toe of the shoe? My old farrier told me 25 years ago already that a horse shouldn't have to do that and worked the break over in the shoe. I guess he was way ahead of time..... He also did a pasture trim that was pretty close to a" modern" barefoot trim.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> The ex farrier did a pretty good job on that horrendous crack, tho. See how she" rolled" the toe of the shoe? My old farrier told me 25 years ago already that a horse shouldn't have to do that and worked the break over in the shoe. I guess he was way ahead of time..... He also did a pasture trim that was pretty close to a" modern" barefoot trim.


Actually????.....No....her shoe was not made with the rocker toe....Belle created it from walking toe first. Her shoe was the same thickness all the way around. A friend and I were just talking about that today when we were looking at it ourselves.....paper thin worn out in front.

However, this farrier did the best of anyone around here and I was quite happy with it, for shoes.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

You can look at the pictures on the beginning of this threat, they show the shoe the day he shod her. The crack was healed by the time we moved down here.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Actually????.....No....her shoe was not made with the rocker toe....Belle created it from walking toe first. Her shoe was the same thickness all the way around. A friend and I were just talking about that today when we were looking at it ourselves.....paper thin worn out in front.
> 
> However, this farrier did the best of anyone around here and I was quite happy with it, for shoes.


 With" she" I meant Belle, not the farrier lol


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> With" she" I meant Belle, not the farrier lol


Ohhhh ok, gotcha. 

I worked on that crack religiously. The old farrier could only come out every seven weeks and that was it. The back piece of her hoof would grow much faster than the rest. That was where I had to start learning about tidying up her foot in between trims the best I could. The abscess, I would take a syringe with a diluted betadine, and put it in the abscess to flush it out...it would leak out of the bottom of the foot following the crack. Plus I would soak it twice a day. She abscessed for a long time. I'm so glad the crack did grow out ok.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Yup, good job


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Today I am sooooo happy. It has been a couple weeks of diet change and ALCAR. Snickers is totally back to her sweet, calm self.
I lunged her to see how her legs were doing since her relapse and she did AWESOME!!! The transitions are sooooooo smooth. As usual, it's is hard to get decent video while actually holding the camera and asking her to go forward....but at least I got one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL38icxE1MA
Since she did so well in the round pen, I rode her at w/t/c in the arena and she was awesome again. So we went on a short trail ride....where she was.......AWESOME! So relieved.
Belle was a little sore today, but not as bad as I thought she would be. We walked around our 1/4 track, which is the same sand as her paddock. I also put down pea gravel where her water is and where she stands at the hitching post by my tack room. I took a couple pictures, but they aren't the best, because I didn't want to mess with her feet and just let her rest after yesterday.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Awesooooooome


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok, here are a few pictures of before and after with Belle:

After we finally got the shoes pulled......









Hmmmm....this is going to be a test....it's not letting me post in here, like I usually do....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Wierd...ok, before trim, after shoe taken off.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Before, shoe removed...









After shoe removed, before trim....









Some hind, non-shoe, before trim....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Mind you, this trim was very difficult. It was a team effort. Belle was not being the most cooperative, not sure why. Not perfect, but better.

After pics:










Shod foot, after trim...


















Shod foot, afte trim....









Hind feet, non-shod, after trim....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here are a few pictures of Snickers feet post-trim. No need to get before/after pic crazy, because her feet are nice and she doesn't have any problems.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Belle looking much better!
Snickers... you'll be surprised how much concavity you will get.... ask that dead brittle sole that wants to come out....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Even though Snickers has strong hooves, they still have a ways to go. She was still walking toe first, like Belle. She would wear her toes down, while the rest of the wall remained long. So, she is still going through her own transition stage, even though not as severe as Belle. Sole and frog are being trimmed only by mother nature.

I'm so excited to see what the differences in their hooves will be next summer with their diet change and trimming change.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Keep taking pictures for comparison later. And if it's just to show off;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So, today Belle hit her head, on what I am assuming, her shelter. I'm thinking that when they are thrown their hay in their feed bin, Snickers is mean to Belle for the alfalfa and Belle threw her head up and hit the shelter.

Belle is fine. But I did go ahead and finish hanging their Freedom Feeder nets. I had them hung before all over their paddock to get them used to it. The bo will only throw grass hay now into the nets. Hopefully, this will keep the tension down from Snickers thinking she has to inhale alfalfa at feed time. I will throw my own alfalfa when I am out there and I will spread it around.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Besides the excitement of today's events.....Snickers has been doing very well on a lunge line. I haven't lunged her on a line in a long while, just free lunging in the round pen. I've decided that I wanted to try it on a line again to keep her balancing herself, without using the rail of a round pen. I also wanted to put a surcingle on her with a rope behind her hocks to maybe help her hold her hind end under her better and use those muscles....that is the thought anyway. Today was the second time for her and she was awesome. She is listening very well, with minimal cue from me to move her forward and do it calmly and controlled. This would be a great thing to take a video of. I'll try and get someone else to help me and post it.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

One more note from today.....here is Snickers, being Snickers.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhSlNgwLmyI


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oooohh, she's rubbing her belly.... my Snipper does that too. A lot less, with 4oz of flaxseed, tho. First year she was rubbing and biting herself raw everywhere she could reach. 

Belle... that's rather unfortunate what she did. But it will heal(Furazone does an excellent job)

I'm so thrilled to hear Snickers is doing so well on the" reverse" diet. And the nets are super


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Freedom Feeder nets are doing a great job. Hay that was consumed in an hour or two, is now lasting 24 hours a day. Hopefully with them not every being without hay and eating slower, will limit glucose spikes. So much easier than making hay nets too and having to be there to do so. Loving it!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Grade of happiness of the ladies, from 1-10?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Everyone is happy....horses, me and bo!!

The hay in this picture was from breakfast still and the picture was taken mid afternoon. There is hay on the ground, but they still keep pecking away at the net!










Belle's head is getting better already!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've noticed the same with my nets, they prefer them over hay on the ground, and if eating from the ground, they take tiny little bites also


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle got her Big Mamma boots today!....Well, boot, not boots.....lol. I didn't realize that I ordered one, not a pair. No wonder it was a good deal...lol.




























I am quite happy with how 'not' sore she is. She was running around the arena bucking and having fun today. I am really excited for this transition. After reading Pete Ramey's whole book...I've come to realize, that I may have been on the right track with her before the shoes, but I just needing that last bit of knowledge and a little more time. I think this is going to be a good thing.

Snickers is still doing well. I don't think she is any better now than she was before. I have heard a lot of EPSM horses doing worse with the colder weather though...so maybe she will be a little better in summer.

Needless to say, this summer will be quite an event to watch out for!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

The girls had their tootsies trimmed today. Two weeks since the last one. Belle's feet are holding together really well. Snickers feet are great to begin with. Maren didn't even see Snicker's feet to trim them last time. By the time she finished with Belle's one difficult foot, the farrier was done with Snickers and we were all exhausted. So, Maren did Snickers today and said that it looked like she was more like four weeks out, heels were high and not balanced. So she took care of it all today. Belle also did better than last time. Very happy. Pics to come tomorrow, since we ran out of daylight and were trimming by flashlight.:shock:


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here are some pictures from yesterday's two week touch up. You can definitely tell, on Belle, the two feet that have been shod, compared to the two that weren't. The feet have a long way to go, but so far so good in such a short time!

Belle:




































Snickers:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Snickers seems three-legged.... 
the second pic,, of Snickers, is that a hind? One weird looking frog....
you're in good hands, tho


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Snickers seems three-legged....
> the second pic,, of Snickers, is that a hind? One weird looking frog....
> you're in good hands, tho


Hmmmmm....that DOES look peculiar! I'll have to check it out tomorrow....I'm thinking it's lh???...lol. Funny how things like different in person than in a picture....nothing struck me odd when I took them, unless I was just concentrating on getting the picture...lol.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle got to try on her new boots today! They fit great. Can't wait to ride her in them Sunday!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Finally enough horse above the boots... they look so huge on thin TB legs lol
She seems pretty pleased with her new foot wear


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Finally enough horse above the boots... they look so huge on thin TB legs lol
> She seems pretty pleased with her new foot wear


Well, I always say.....Even though Belle is more like a bull in a china shop, she still thinks she is a ballerina......they just look like little ballet shoes on her, don't they???? lol.:lol:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

exactly


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I am starting to wonder if Snickers was doing better on the high fat diet. Still want to watch and try to play around with a couple things with her diet, but really, there is not much room for change, outside of adding the fat again.

Cantering has been seeming difficult for her under saddle. I've heard several people say that their horses get worse with the symptoms in colder temps. However, living in San Diego, temps aren't all that different, except at night.

The girls have been off grass for a while now. They have been eating the min/vit supplement fine with their alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. They have been getting the same amount of grass hay in their nibble net set up....where it lasts almost all day and night. I have been giving them the same two flakes of alfalfa, but together, rather than split up.

The only room to give at this point, would be to give them one flake of alfalfa to share, rather than two, especially since they get the alfalfa pellets now. Don't think I can go backwards too much on the alfalfa pellets, since they only get 1 lb - 1.5 lbs a day. Maybe eliminate beet pulp? They've only been getting about two cups each a day. Hmmmmm.

What I have noticed with Snickers, is her neck maybe being more cresty? However, she has lost some of her udder fat. Her back still looks the same.

So, I will make the small changes and see if they make any difference. Otherwise, I may go back to high fat....oy.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Have you run your observations by the group? 
One general thing I noticed is vast differences in alfalfa. I currently have obviously first cutting, stemmy, a bit more brown than green, but they eat it better. the previous was very green, shorter stems, but they left a lot. So they seem to like the brown stuff better, which should also be lower in nutrients. Do you supplement magnesium too?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Have you run your observations by the group?
> One general thing I noticed is vast differences in alfalfa. I currently have obviously first cutting, stemmy, a bit more brown than green, but they eat it better. the previous was very green, shorter stems, but they left a lot. So they seem to like the brown stuff better, which should also be lower in nutrients. Do you supplement magnesium too?


I haven't mentioned it on the group just yet. I'm going to give it a little more time after the small changes in diet.

They are getting magnesium too. They have been getting a full dose now of their supplement that Maren had made after the hay was tested. They get 3 grams in the supplement.

I would have thought if her neck was more cresty, that I would see it in her other fat areas too???


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Could be that she's done growing and now puts on what makes her an adult draft cross. Dunno, seriously. Do you have anybody that could have a look, who hasn't seen her since you started the new diet? To counteract the crest, you might want to up the Mg. It's pretty safe, up to 10g ids recommended, and you can easily see if her storage is full( rather loose stools). Might be worth a try. The cold.... it is cold at night for our area, could have an effect on her muscles. As I said, I'd ask the group.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Could be that she's done growing and now puts on what makes her an adult draft cross. Dunno, seriously. Do you have anybody that could have a look, who hasn't seen her since you started the new diet? To counteract the crest, you might want to up the Mg. It's pretty safe, up to 10g ids recommended, and you can easily see if her storage is full( rather loose stools). Might be worth a try. The cold.... it is cold at night for our area, could have an effect on her muscles. As I said, I'd ask the group.


Yes, I can up the Mag again. I think they were pretty close to the 10g before, but once they started on the full dose of the Uckele, I wanted to start from the minimum again and go from there with anything. Guess this would be a good time.  Never any loose stools with them. I'll start tomorrow. What does the Mag do again?

Haven't had anyone to look at her, unless I call another vet who has never seen her. So annoying and frustrating, because when I talk EPSM with even the vets so far, I get the deer in the headlights look. I'll add the Mag starting tomorrow.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

More Mg is needed with the alfalfa since its high in Ca. Mg does all kinds of neat things, nerves, muscles, helps getting rid of the crest, and a bunch of other stuff. It's pretty safe to give, unlike other minerals, and it's chronically low in our soils. 
Did Maren take the alfalfa into consideration or did she only balance the grass hay?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> More Mg is needed with the alfalfa since its high in Ca. Mg does all kinds of neat things, nerves, muscles, helps getting rid of the crest, and a bunch of other stuff. It's pretty safe to give, unlike other minerals, and it's chronically low in our soils.
> Did Maren take the alfalfa into consideration or did she only balance the grass hay?


Yes, she tests both once a year. The vit/min supplement is created based on 1/3 alfalfa and 2/3 grass per feeding diet.

I started with only giving 1 flake now of the alfalfa instead of the two when I get there. The barn only feeds the grass in the nets. I also increased Mag yesterday to 8000mg for Snickers. Gotta go from here. Maybe I'm just imagining it. I'm going to take a picture and compare to past ones.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Good idea with the one flake only. It does make a difference calorie wise. You can always throw a little more to Belle while you work with Snickers. Are you adding E/Se too?
I'm thoroughly pleased with that diet for mine . The blimp has lost the upholstery( well, almost lol), the other two are in perfect weight, and all three still have plenty of energy. I hope it'll work out for you, too.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Good idea with the one flake only. It does make a difference calorie wise. You can always throw a little more to Belle while you work with Snickers. Are you adding E/Se too?
> I'm thoroughly pleased with that diet for mine . The blimp has lost the upholstery( well, almost lol), the other two are in perfect weight, and all three still have plenty of energy. I hope it'll work out for you, too.


Yeah Desert....I still supplement the Vit E at 5000iu. The selenium is in the vit/min supplement.

I posted on the EPSM group about the possible crest and my feeling that Snicker's movement is not as good as when she was on high fat. Still didn't take a comparison picture and trying not to jump to conclusions to quickly.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So Snickers is really at where we started before we started her on the high fat diet last spring. However, I don't want to make any drastic change back to adding the fat just yet. There are other factors involved, like the days being shorter and the holidays where she has been worked less. The temperatures are also much cooler at night, which I've heard many EPSM horse owners say their horses get very stiff with the colder temps.

Today I rode Snickers in the arena to practice with the flag. She has been off consistently with the tightness in the hind end for sure. I cantered her and she went down. We are both just fine. I just feel guilty. So, I put away the flag and decided to just take her for a trail ride at the walk. It's frustrating, because I know I need to exercise her, but she is so limited. I rode her on a short trail ride and then rode with some of the other girls, just doing serpentines at the trot. Following the other horses really kept her going well and that was the first time she ever held the trot so long. I'm very proud of her. One of the girls said her horse's locking stifle has also been acting up and her horse is more stiff recently. I'm going to get more consistent with Snickers again and keep her trotting. I think canter is too hard for her right now.

I also have come to the decision that I'm going to have the muscle biopsy done. Don't ask me why....if it's neg? Then what? If it's pos? Then what? I guess I just want to know. Plus MSU tests for a handful of other muscular things with the specimen. I will probably due this in January. I have to find a vet that is familiar with what to do to be sure they take the correct specimen and handle it correctly when sending it to MSU. They give instructions on the website, but I still need some type of confidence knowing that the vet is at least familiar with it all.

Belle had torn the gaiter off her boot, so I contacted Easyboot for a replacement, but they are closed until Jan 6. So still waiting.

Both horses' feet are doing pretty darn well though. That's good news anyway. Belle had been a little more sore since we had rain and her feet were softer. But still she is doing very well.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Good to hear the feet are doing well, at least. 
Have you got any feedback from the group? It's bad timing with the holidays, I bet. I would probably read and read and read until I find cases similar to Snickers' on it, thinking that somebody on there must have had delay in improvement also lol


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Good to hear the feet are doing well, at least.
> Have you got any feedback from the group? It's bad timing with the holidays, I bet. I would probably read and read and read until I find cases similar to Snickers' on it, thinking that somebody on there must have had delay in improvement also lol


No, can't say that the group has given me much information. Really disappointed. Dr. Valentine always got back to me very quickly. I did email Dr. Valberg this morning to ask if she possibly had a list of vets familiar with EPSM in my are to do the biopsy. The vet I was using didn't seem very familiar with it at all. I emailed another vet, recommended to me, to see if she was familiar with it and I still haven't heard anything. So frustrating.

Yes, feet in Belle and Snickers are doing awesome!!! Belle was a little sore when they were wet for a few days, but I walked her on gravel yesterday and she seemed fine. Both are beginning to take shape very nicely. I will try and get pictures soon. Snickers has solid feet, but they still needed some tweaking.

With Belle's boots, I tried them back on yesterday because the Easyboot Epic is just the Epic with the gaiter attached. So, you can use them without the gaiter anyway. I found that the wires are stretched out. So, that one time of her running around stretched them. There isn't another setting to make them tighter, so I am going to try and alter them today, making the wire a little shorter. You can buy the wire and copper fittings at Lowes I found. I'll go from there.

Someone posted this on one of the EPSM forums...what do you think? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...98826824356.1073741828.632186293492276&type=1

or if you can't see this because it is on FB....here is the link.....http://emergesupplements.com/our-products/


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Another observation I've made with Belle....

She has always had weepy, watery eyes. I thought maybe she had blocked tear ducts. Well, as of late, they are not running anymore. Could possibly be contributed to her vit/min being balanced now, especially with all the extra Mag added?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now here is what I think, my very own, personal opinion.
Seeing what is happening right now, I would think really hard. My first idea would be going back to the Valentine diet, with some modifications, to keep a healthy weight despite feeding high fat. I might consider waiting till it warms up to see if winter had something to do with it, no improvement= going back to the other diet. With concerns about getting fat, I'd ditch the alfalfa before I'd ditch fat, and I'd up the exercise.
That supplement.... again, my own opinion..... If you feel like spending on what you can add with what you're already feeding(vit E and flax), go ahead... lol. I couldn't find any ingredient list of how much is in it of each on that site.... bad.

So, again, my point of view here. The article about PSSM on that site was good, and could actually give some ideas to what to do. 
I'd sit down and think. Hard. Previous diet she did well on. But new worries popped up, need to be addressed. How can I do that without making her bad again. That's where logic comes into play;-)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Another observation I've made with Belle....
> 
> She has always had weepy, watery eyes. I thought maybe she had blocked tear ducts. Well, as of late, they are not running anymore. Could possibly be contributed to her vit/min being balanced now, especially with all the extra Mag added?


I think it is mineral related, can't remember what it was, tho.....


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have found that any horse or pony we had that had some form of metabolic/diet related laminitis/thyroid/cushings issues also suffered with runny eyes and often a runny nose when the problems were 'active'
I'm inclined to think that its related to a poor immune system as they can't utilize glucose correctly
I've been adding Vitamin C to my two that have problems and it seems to help - horses make vitamin C from glucose and if they can't produce glucose correctly then chances are they will be deficient
Horses and vitamins


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle has always been a very oozy, drippy horse....lol. Besides her eyes always watering, when worked her nose drips quite a bit and she drools...lol. It was only now that I've noticed her eyes have not been draining like they used to and I thought I had read somewhere about a Mag deficiency can cause that..idk. Time will tell now that the girls have been on the custom Uckele vit/min balancing their hay. There is only 3000mg of Mag Ox in it and I've added 10,000mg due to the special circumstances....the custom Uckele supplement is balanced to the hay for a 'normal' horse.

This is why I am thinking that having the muscle biopsy done next month is a good thing.....that way I can confirm or deny the EPSM diagnosis and then go from their with diet modifications. Because some things ie: adding chromium to an IR diet is not good for an EPSM horse. I won't solve my problems, but I won't have to be scared of changing her diet in a way that may not benefit an actual EPSM horse.

Desert...I don't want to jump around from thing to thing. As tempting as it is, I would looooove to just jump back to the high fat diet. But I really want to rule out the weather change and less exercise at the moment out. But, I think my first step is doing this biopsy.

Jaydee...funny, because I'm always talking about Snickers and her problems with 'un-diagnosed' EPSM....when Belle is EPSM pos without the physical symptoms...I often overlook some of her issues being related to the EPSM.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I read that runny eyes thing also, but can't remember what it is that's missing. Cushings horses often have it, tho. 

For waiting for warmer weather... that probably would be my choice, before changing anything. Another thing to keep in mind... high fat is bad for confirmed IR/ Cushings horses. So as long as that's not the case, it should be okay feeding the fat. Watching the weight, of course.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, I just received an email back from Dr. Valberg! She gave me the name of a vet that she knew quite a while back that she taught and even asked me to say hi to him...lol.

See, Dr. Valentine and Dr. Valberg make me happy! I know they are all extremely busy and there are millions more like me, but that makes me feel like someone actually cares in a time where I'm ready to pull my hair out. Hopefully I will find this vet now.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Today was a great day!

Rode Belle in her boots for the first time. She was awesome, as always.

Lunged Snickers with a ground pole to get her to pick up her hinds. At first, this was veeeeeery scary. But only after a few times of her tumbling over the pole, she actually did a great job picking them up. I couldn't believe it. So, this will be a good exercise for her. Afterwards, she had her second ground driving lesson. Even went out of the arena, all over the ranch and she was a natural. She never ceases to amaze me...she is one fantastic girl.

The only problem was that I forgot to use my new Gopro camera that my husband bought me for Christmas!!! No more holding my phone in one hand for video!!!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow, taking video is sooooooo much cooler with this Gopro camera!

Well, here is some video showing how Snickers has regressed.....she is worse going to the right and will even break into the canter, like she is annoyed to get her legs right.

To the right:

EPSM Snickers lunging to the right - YouTube

To the left:

EPSM Snickers lunging to the left - YouTube

And on a better note.....here was Snicker's third time learning to ground drive...

EPSM Snickers learning to drive - YouTube


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

back to square one....
honestly... if she was mine, I'd be back on the high fat diet, would try to keep it as close as possible to the lowest must have% and keep sugars/ starches low also. like the best of both worlds thing.... hoping it would be possible. Oh, and shed be on diet... gained lots of weight, it seems. could be winter woolies, tho.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> back to square one....
> honestly... if she was mine, I'd be back on the high fat diet, would try to keep it as close as possible to the lowest must have% and keep sugars/ starches low also. like the best of both worlds thing.... hoping it would be possible. Oh, and shed be on diet... gained lots of weight, it seems. could be winter woolies, tho.


I'm going to take a short video of her tomorrow in the round pen with my phone and see if maybe the Gopro makes her look different. I can see what you are saying when I compare these videos to the old ones. In person, it doesn't seem as dramatic, except her crest, which I still am not sure. Yes, winter woolies too.

I'm going to have the biopsy done in the next few weeks. I have to request the day off and arrange transportation to a vet that can do the biopsy. Haven't figured out which of two vets yet, since their offices were closed today.

The girls get less alfalfa now then they used to and their grass hay is the same and only goes into the Freedom Feeders. The only thing they get with their vit min is 1 lb pure alfalfa pellets and 1 lb plain beet pulp. They are not getting any pasture grass. If I need to add fat again, not sure if I should try the oil again or adding the Purina Amplify???? I'm trying not to panic, again.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Is that wet or dry weight? 
Try leaving out the alfalfa hay or the a- pellets and beets. The latter are 2500 calories. Or at least the beets. And less alfalfa pellets, just enough for the supplement. Belle can have more, of course. It will be math again;-) . And logic.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Is that wet or dry weight?
> Try leaving out the alfalfa hay or the a- pellets and beets. The latter are 2500 calories. Or at least the beets. And less alfalfa pellets, just enough for the supplement. Belle can have more, of course. It will be math again;-) . And logic.


I am going to weigh the beet pulp and pellets today to get an accurate measurement. I had been just using a l lb scoop from a feed, so the #'s will be different. I didn't think it would be a big deal, but now I want to be more accurate. The mix I have with the beet pulp and pellets is the smallest ratio to get them to eat their slop. The vit/min are balanced for a diet of 2/3 bermuda and 1/3 alfalfa. The alfalfa is supposed to be needed for EPSM horses to begin with.

I also posted on the Yahoo forum and waiting from a reply from Dr. Kellon maybe.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

She is around, she was on the IR group as recent as yesterday. 
One thing you can do is spacing the hay nets more over the entire area they have to encourage movement. I know it's more convenient to have it all on one spot, but the small portions spread out really gets them going all day. I have proof, mine are directly at the house,I have several nets hanging, and a little here and there on the ground and they move around constantly. Low impact exercise lol


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Dr. Kellon response....

Cold weather and seasonal rise in ACTH can also worsen insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome. Next time your vet is out it would also be a good idea to check blood glucose and insulin levels, do nerve blocks to the front feet. Low grade chronic laminitis could easily explain what you are seeing too and her weight plus crest changes raise the index of suspicion. This can be VERY difficult to see because both front feet are involved (and possibly hinds as well) so they move fairly evenly. Signs include slow movement,reluctance to move, rigid head carriage, reluctance to turn, nonspecific pain indicators like ear pinning, sensitivity to touch.

Eleanor

She has always moved like this, even when she was a thinner two year old.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would go back to the high fat diet as it seemed to work for her
I looked at the first video and it really does look like Flo when she's having a bad day with her stifle arthritis
I've also seen horses with laminitis move like that when they have it in their hind feet


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Hmmm... while I'm with jaydee, I'd make sure it is not IR before starting with the high fat. Just to be able to sleep well.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm waiting on any diet changes until she goes to the specialist for blood work and her biopsy.

FYI...I weighed beet pulp and pellets today. Pellets = 1lb and beet pulp = 1/2 lb (dry).


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Didn't get video today, but got a pic.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Hmmmmm.....again......


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)




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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

She did bulk up, but not excessively from what I can see. Although hard to tell, but neck doesn't look cresty. 
On thehorse.com is a poster of body condition scoring fir download. Get her score. As long as she's not over 5.5, she should be okay.
Oh, and...oooohh, shiny.... both of them


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Flo is IR and I've had her on a high fat diet for a long time now - its never had a negative affect on her and is really the only way I can keep 'good weight' on her - as opposed to her looking ribby but with abnormal fat deposits in places
Snickers doesn't look typical of an IR victim but it always starts somewhere. Often with 'bulges' in the sockets above the eye
With Flo's stifle arthritis - its not that noticeable in the summer months but now its cold she looks quite lame, it is a lot colder here though than where you are


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok, today I had Maren, my friend on the ranch that has been helping me with trimming and diet, watch Snickers lunge. She had seen me ride Snickers in the past, and felt that her weak stifles were familiar, since she has dealt with it with her young four year old horse. I toldl her about what Dr. Kellon had said about possible laminitis. So, we decided to boot her and see the difference. The observation was made that she did look a little better with boots moving forward more, but also, that I haven't pushed her to really 'mean' move forward enough to her. Once she got much more forward, and wasn't allowed to plod along, she was way better.

I called the vet recommended to me by Dr. Valberg. The person that answered the phone apparently has worked with him for a long time and said that he was in school with Dr. Valberg, and has never, in twenty years there, heard of EPSM testing. I'm waiting for her to talk to the vet and get back to me.

With the observations that were made today, I am going to get boots for Snickers and ask more of her when lunging, to see if we can get weight off and strengthen at the same time and go from there for now. I will still continue my search for a vet, if needed in the future.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Bummer with the vet. 
I guess time will tell if these measures will do the trick. 
But when I think about it, why was she so much better on the fat diet, she did work as slow as she is in the video.... somewhere something doesn't go together.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Bummer with the vet.
> I guess time will tell if these measures will do the trick.
> But when I think about it, why was she so much better on the fat diet, she did work as slow as she is in the video.... somewhere something doesn't go together.


You are right.....we will see.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Ha, you watch, a couple of months from now, everything will fall into place... Warmer weather, getting more fit, and adaption to the new diet and bam... a sound Snickers;-)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Ugh, this sounds frustrating ): Keep us updated..


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I hope you are right desert....

Good news is that I now have two vets to choose from that can do the biopsy, if needed. One is the first one that Dr. Valberg gave me the name of. The other is the major equine vet in the area (the one you take your horse to for surgery) that does the testing. I spoke to one of the vets there on the phone and she sounded like she knew exactly what to do and even asked me which vet out of MSU I've been working with, after naming them for herself. Yay!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well at least that is working lol. 
Have her IR tested also, and if it's only to rule it out and not being so restricted in feed. On ecirhorse.com you'll find the protocol for it.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, I am a very skeptical person, until I am proven wrong, which then...I am willing to accept things. With that being said, I've been increasing Snicker's lunge work, making her go more forward and really working on impulsion. Today was the first day, which I really saw her noticeably different. She looked more mature and she has picked up on how to go forward, like she should, without me having to constantly nag, as before. When she is going forward, her legs don't act up near as much. And I've really been enjoying all of this, because she seems to totally 'get it'. Maybe that's why she looks more mature to me now. Once we got past the whole, yes you HAVE to go more forward, she seemed to start enjoying it, even getting a little snooty as to say, "I got this Mom, let's go!"

Maren still thinks there is nothing wrong with her except weak stifles and her being an awkward four year old. She obviously doesn't spend as much time with her as I do, so I can't say I have been swayed yet. But Snicker's had a really good mile stone of a day today during her lunge work.

I also set up an appointment with a chiro she uses exclusively for Belle and Snicker's both on the 21st. I am really starting to trust Maren's instincts and wisdom and decided to go with it, though I've already had two. We will see.

Belle went on a trail ride in her boots for the first time and was her usual, wonderful and easy self. Feet will be working on concavity for months. I did also pony her off of Snickers yesterday for the first time off of the ranch. That was fabulous as well.

So honestly, things are good around here...sooooooo happy. I will video this week some of Snicker's lunge work. Like I said, not yet swayed, but it's looking up!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Whatever works... as easy as that. 
Looking forward to the video


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You have to stay positive - she was going so well in the summer so proves you can beat whatever it is


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, today...not so good during lunge work. Staying positive Jaydee! Because no matter what, she is the best horse ever!

Matter of fact, I am taking her and riding in a Buck Brannaman clinic this April!!! Soooooooooooooooooooo excited!!!!!!! She is my perfect horse, no matter what disabilities she may have. She has so many other things going for her that make her so special.

Thanks for the support everyone!!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here are short videos of her noodle legs failing today....I did video hoping to have a repeat of yesterday, but it was opposite.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I am so jealous...... you are going to a BB clinic.....

Watched both videos and then the"6 weeks into new diet" one that happened to be right there.... she is moving better now than then. She is a bit chubbier now, tho
So something seems to work now. Maybe you should do that.... watch an old, then a current video?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I am so jealous...... you are going to a BB clinic.....
> 
> Watched both videos and then the"6 weeks into new diet" one that happened to be right there.... she is moving better now than then. She is a bit chubbier now, tho
> So something seems to work now. Maybe you should do that.... watch an old, then a current video?


We are going to keep working. I really think this camera distorts images, like a fun house mirror. Gawd, I better stay out of the view then! Seriously, I think it does, not saying she is not overweight, just saying.

Well, at least she has improved from something, especially since this was really horrible compared to yesterday. I hate watching old video...because I over analyze everything and worry!

Her next trim is this Thurs. Maybe I'll get some pics then and also update after chiro on the 21st.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

your filming her from above. that might distort things. lense should be at the height of withers


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She looks to be moving forwards with a lot more energy - I think I can still see a bit of a hopping action but that little bucking fit says to me that whatever is going on isn't bothering her much!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> She looks to be moving forwards with a lot more energy - I think I can still see a bit of a hopping action but that little bucking fit says to me that whatever is going on isn't bothering her much!!


It's funny that you make light of what she is doing as I panic like these are her final days in life!! lol. My friend, Maren watched the video too. She has a horse the exact same age to the month with sticky stifles. She makes light of it all saying that she just needs to keep maturing. Since I am unfamiliar with young horses, could it be possible that that may be part truth? Is any of this look like normal stuff?

The bucking fits, I was thinking was from her muscles cramping up or her legs getting twisted and she was having a tantrum out of frustration....could it be that this is normal and the tantrum is towards me working her instead? Should I push her to keep going when she looks like she starts locking up or let her slow down and then start over?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I thought her bucking looked like her saying ' 'whoopee look at me go!!!'
I try to compare it to how I feel when I have aches, pains and stiff joints or muscles - the last thing I'd want to do is kick my legs up in the air!!
Flo didn't begin her stifle problems until about 5 years ago (she's now 23) and at the start no one else could see it - not even my vet but I could feel the change in her. She seems to go through periods of being OK and then not so good again. She's better in the warm weather and I'm sure the high fat diet has improved her a lot as she's hardly ever on pain meds now but looks no worse for it. Maybe its helped her produce more muscle to hold things in place - I don't know.
Her biggest problem now is that the arthritis in her hind fetlocks is really restricting the action in them - but again - when she feels like galloping and broncing around the field it doesn't see to bother her as much as I worry about it


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Agree with jaydee . I also read "you want me to canter? YOU WANT ME TO CANTER?????HERE!!!"
and she does, without hesitating. 
And for the stifles..... I've met a couple of QH who simply grew out of it. Both did seriously lock up, but it went away. My standardbred was maintained with the square toe behind.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, I've been slowly learning a lot over the past couple of weeks. I'm realizing that my horse is a four year old, only trained by myself, lazy and trying to pull the wool over my eyes...lol.

I had a lesson on Sunday. I wanted to work on steering so I could figure out the mystery behind us drunk driving. That helped. Did a lot of turning corners and yielding haunches and on the forehand. Snickers cooperates so nicely and it doesn't take much for her to respond to me, once she figures out what it is. I have a lot to work on with how I carry myself when I'm asking for some things.

Today I rode with some of the girls in the arena, where they witnessed what Snickers does when I ask for the trot at times, and she tries to scrape my leg off on the rail. I was doing some things to try and resolve this before, but was confused as to how to remain in a correct body position to give her the right cues, when my leg was about to get squished. She would even throw her shoulder right out and we would go right out of the gate on a diagonal....lol. Well today, we resolved it!!! Have a lot of work to do, but I feel great!!

I'm still concentrating on getting Snickers, and myself, in better condition and seeing what happens.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Such WONDERFUL news for me!!!

Had new chiro out today. Had no idea that she was not only a chiro and vet, but human MD. She was soooooo knowledgeable and I felt like I could say anything and she knew exactly what I was saying. Such a relief.

Snickers: She is definitely built and moves like a draft. She does many drafts and also does the Budweiser Clydes when they are here! She didn't find anything huge. Did say something about her sternum being out of whack. She said that it is very obvious that Snickers is not using her butt muscles, but instead using her tendons?/ligaments? on her back where it meets the butt???....this is NOT her terminology btw...lol. She said that the stifle on that right hind, she is able to push out of place waaaaaay too easily, even when Snicker's is standing with her leg locked, she is able to manipulate it and make it give. Other stifle not as bad, but not great. She did some stretches and manipulating and does not agree, at all, with the last vets assessment of 'Stringhalt'. She also is 99% sure that it is not boney or neurological. She said to keep EPSM in the back of my mind, but mostly to get her working much more with the things I've started....hills, groundpoles, backing etc. I am so happy!!!!! But, I refuse to let Maren tell me, "I told you so!"

Belle: Looks very good and healthy for her age and the work she probably did in her life. She found two other muscular injuries in her chest, where she has that broken breast bone already. She also found one under her chin in her neck. She said that this probably went with some type of carriage wreck. I had been told in the past that she was a runaway at some point. She was more stiff on one side. Belle is like two separate horses in the front and in the back. The back is stiff and the front much more supple. The tendons above her hocks are consistent with a horse that pulled a lot of weight. She thought that with the way Belle's body is that she was a show hitch horse, not just a plow horse. Her hamstrings are tight and it will help if I massage them cross-wise. She also recommended a joint supplement.

I really couldn't be happier with this chiro/MD....and my friend Maren, who has helped me so much. Happy dance for me.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)




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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh my 
I guess now I have my explanation for the "dangling" tail also  it all makes sense now!

Now, get to work, lady


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Oh my
> I guess now I have my explanation for the "dangling" tail also  it all makes sense now!
> 
> Now, get to work, lady


The tendons/ligaments she showed me were above the sacrum on the sides of the spine. You could feel them. So, she is using those, rather than her muscles for movement.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

would be interesting to know why..... if EPSM is to be ruled out, more or less.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That chiro sounds great - honestly I prefer those that are also vets because there are some real 'fakes' out there that can do more harm than good
The fact that she doesn't use her muscles properly would make you wonder if there is something like EPSM or even IRS going on that would cause muscle weakness?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

We are doing the 'Biggest Loser' at our ranch. Two week weigh in was tonight....I am down 7.4 lbs! Yay from me and my horses! Snickers is doing quite well with her work too. It is our year!!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm on a diet too but failing miserably at present!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

diet here,too..... growing awfully long ears and front teeth.... could I mutate into a rabbit eating all these vegetables..........


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Diets are good for the soul ;D Keep up the good work!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm not calling mine a diet...more of change in my lifestyle. Keep trying Jaydee!!!! Desert and Zexious...thanks for the support....Desert I hope you keep succeeding too! I've gotten used to all the fruit and veggies now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure its doing my soul any good Zex - I'm suffering from withdrawal symptoms I think and its making me very cranky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^ Oh no! D:
You know what I love to munch on? Little celeries :> It helps me to be constantly nomming on something...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If I can get hypnosis to make me believe that celery tastes like chocolate then I'll give it a try!!!
Apologies for hijacking your thread Snickers!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> I'm not calling mine a diet...more of change in my lifestyle. Keep trying Jaydee!!!! Desert and Zexious...thanks for the support....Desert I hope you keep succeeding too! I've gotten used to all the fruit and veggies now.


 Yeah, me too. 6 weeks, no starving, 15lbs down. Just by not eating white bread, white rice, potatoes, high fructose corn syrup and sugar. First two weeks were the hardest, serious withdrawal symptoms, and yes, CRANKYYYYYYY. 
We're doing South Beach, now at phase 2. Works! And I have a lot less aches and pains, especially joints. 
So totally off topic....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So good to hear I'm not the only one suffering! Snickers is in the same boat as we are...lol....AND cranky doing it...lol.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

at least she doesn't have to deal with a cranky husband.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok peeps.....Snickers is lunging REALLY well now. I have added a fence post for her to go over while lunging in the round pen. She used to trip and fall on her face just walking and trotting over it. She didn't seem to know how to pick up her feet. Then she improved at the trot and looked nice. Yesterday she cantered over it, several times, beautifully and with ease. She is moving forward very nicely. I don't let her get slow and sloppy. She doesn't even try to avoid the post, she seems to enjoy going over it now! Hunter jumper on my hands....lol!!! I will probably do a GoPro video this weekend, depending if we actually get some rain down here.....


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sounds good - looks as if she's moving in the right direction again


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here is the updated video from today. I really don't like how this camera distorts things, but it's better than holding my cell phone in my hand. I am really happy with how things are going. AND I've lost 10 pounds!!!! Win, win!!! Here is a picture of Snickers in case the video distorts her.....










EPSM Snickers lunge 02/09/14 - YouTube


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She's looking great but I hate you for losing so much weight!!!! Not fair


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, this is my goofy horse Snickers.....

New phone takes video differently and I couldn't figure out how to change the video to make it upright....

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=dWUVswsf2W0


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle has been lame x 6 days now. Thought it was maybe an abscess coming. It happend so sudden. I rode her at the walk around the ranch for a half hour, walked over a few logs. Once I got off she was holding her rt hind up a little. Within an hour, she was dead lame. She would only touch her toe down on the ground and hop on the other leg. Been treating it by scrubbing, soaking and wrapping. Finally called out the vet today.

Vet said it wasn't a clear abscess, if that is what it is. Passed hoof tester test. She was concerned with cellulitis and possible collateral ligament issue since her foot is so unstable when you pick it up. That foot has always been like that since I've owned her and she walked supinated on it.

She was given a sedative, a steroid shot and pain med injection. Her foot and leg were wrapped with a goop on her sole and as a pressure wrap up top for the swelling. She will remain on antibiotics and pain med for five days.

The vet later called with the xray results.....Belle's x-rays did show some old collateral ligament strain/damage and coffin bone deterioration and bone chips, some ring bone development. Nothing that would be considerably abnormal for this stage in her life, especially after the earlier life that we don't know much about before I adopted her. We have found so many injuries on her body, it makes me sad to think what she must have gone through. Just glad I have her now and am trying to keep the later years of her life the best they can be.

She did also mention keeping the heels higher with short toes due to the coffin bone angle.

I did lunge her before all of this asking for the canter. Maybe it was too much for her now? I was just trying to keep her in shape. But I think she will just be retired to a walking trail horse.

She does seem better now with the meds. Not just standing around and me having to lay hay in front of her. She actually went over to the freedom feeder nets, as usual and put a little weight on that foot. So glad to have her ok.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's tough - hopefully its just something that will sort itself out and not a long term thing
Sending hugs to Belle
I'll check out the video later on


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Belle is much better! Took the wrap off after five days, and there was an abscess that ruptured above her coronet band. She is running around really well and went out for a trail walk today.

Also had some fun today with my Gopro. Here is Snickers riding around the ranch.....






Here is a video of some of our first jumps together!.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

.....and riding to the other side of our ranch.....

EPSM Snickers going out on a trail ride with friends..... - YouTube


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

...AND and finally, I've got 13 pounds off!.....Well, probably mostly off of my breasts, lol, but off!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Final video for the day....after we all came back from our day of riding....

EPSM Snickers back home from her day of riding..... - YouTube


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I love how she just deals with everything so well - looks as if she really enjoys the jumping work
Well done on the weight loss!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

After riding Snickers in a four day Buck Brannaman clinic, we have had our moment. This horse and I are partners and I have learned just how much try she has in her. I have always been amazed with her and everything she has done with me, but this was over the top amazing. Perhaps I can maybe try and register her with the pinto assoc? Because I finally came up with her show name......"Sheeza Rockstar Snickerbar" :wink:


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)




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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can see her as a perfect Western or Cowboy dressage horse - plus the agility classes that I think she'd be great for


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I can see her as a perfect Western or Cowboy dressage horse - plus the agility classes that I think she'd be great for


Thanks Jaydee. I think you are right!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Day 1 of the Buck clinic was pretty incredible. I was so nervous, but actually relaxed pretty quickly because I was concentrating so hard. I've learned how much I haven't done with Snickers and how much work we have. I also realized how much time I have not taken consistently in order to accomplish certain basic riding elements. It's a whole different ball game when you are forced to work on something, that is very necessary, for hours at a time...compared to trying to do it for ten minutes and thinking it's just something you will never learn. It's also a completely different ball game riding in the clinic than observing. I didn't even see the other riders or notice the audience. I could keep my focus on what Buck was saying along with what my horse and I were attempting to do, but that was about it.

It is also quite another experience going to a clinic where it's not a complete marketing show. Doing his clinic is very intimate. He made the comment about not allowing video and his reasons. He included the fact that this is our time together and personal, not everybody else's time.

Snickers was not quite as fond of Buck...lol. She showed me a few tantrums, reminding me how spoiled she is and how much I have not made her do. After I watched the cow clinic, I went to saddle her up again to practice and do our homework for the evening. In the arena, twice, she did lines of bronco bucking in protest. The good thing is, that she is very easy to ride through this!! We just continued on and kept working for a good hour. She chilled out and I could really see the difference in what we were starting to learn together. I'm so excited to continue on this journey over the next three days.

Buck clinic Day 2......Completed exhausted. I hope I can finish this post before going to bed! Exhausted, but such a great day. Some really BIG stars came into alignment and feel very successful, even though it didn't happen until later in the day when I was practicing. 

After Snicker's little tantrums yesterday, she decided to start out the day with them today in the clinic. She was being the total mare stereotype. I felt less confident today with what was asked of us, because I was so worried about her behavior. I asked Buck what to do if my mare was pinning her ears at others. He told me to get her moving. That was the last thing I wanted to hear, because I was scared of what that may lead to between us running into other riders or me falling off if she moved forward too much. But, I had to suck it up and do it! So, I felt like I was kinda working on her attitude and not the work at hand during the clinic. Almost felt like we regressed. But towards the end of the clinic, after hearing Buck complain about 'dull' horses and making them go, I began working on roll backs and then pushing Snickers forward through the feel of my pelvis tilting, then the slight movement in my legs and, if she didn't go, kick her. Oh, well she got it veeeeeery quickly. Some of these things I hadn't heard for the first time, and even had tried to work through in the past.....but I really didn't get it until Buck kept on about it, over and over. Some of the other things started to make slight sense too, but not that total 'aha' moment.

After watching the second clinic and having to go back and saddle her up to practice. I realized that Snickers learned to go more forward from those earlier exercises and Buck saying it over and over, making me do it, over and over. It's such a true statement when it is said that the rider often gives up just before success. You have to stick it out and hang in there....not just for ten minutes, once a week. While I have no problem executing those things with groundwork, it had been very hard under saddle for me. When I found that she was listening to my seat and leg to go forward, I was able to then focus on getting her soft/collecting/bridling her up. And once my hands had purpose and I was focused watching for the opportunities to offer release to her, I wasn't scared of her forward movement anymore. We were moving out, at the trot, way faster than she has ever given me before, and instead of focusing on how scared I was of the forward movement, and instead focusing on her so I could release to her, it all fell into place. And when that happend, Snickers got better and better, looking for that and the misbehaving went away. So hard to explain, but so freaking cool. There were all kinds of things going on in that arena and outside of the arena, and we were just both going on like it was our own little bubble. She was happy she was in her rectangle and I was happy in it too.

Buck clinic Day 3:

Did I already say I was exhausted yesterday? lol. Today was a good day. Feeling the confidence developed from yesterday. Snickers argued a few times during the clinic, but not like yesterday and no bucking streaks. He had us trying to back circles today...and I and my horse are pretty lost with those right now, but we tried. Things are still shuffling around in my brain, but coming together nicely. It's so nice to not be scared and bracing for something to go wrong. Now I am using much more leg as an aid and not thinking of using my hands. Snickers being bridled up is helping her keep her body in her rectangle, which is her peace. I am constantly seeking when I can release to her and she is seeking it, so we are always working together as a team now. After practicing this evening, I even rode all around the ranch, by myself. I rode up and down the hills and went to see the cattle, and it was so relaxing.

The final day 4 of the Buck clinic:

We continued with the same exercises today, feeling better about everything each day. We added short serpentines, and I actually enjoyed doing these. Those actually made me get the understanding of picking up her inside front foot, and placing it with the rein on the ground. I get how those reins are attached to the feet, not only the mouth. I now understand feeling your horse between you, as if it is your actual legs. I understand riding your horse, though not easy, like you are an athlete, not just a passenger. I understand not letting your horse being a bump on a log and that my horse can be slow, without being dull. I felt the joy of having my horse engaged mentally with me as a team, both of us understanding we need to search for that 'release' and be in peace.

I have struggled over these past couple of years, as those who know Snickers, about her noodle legs, always wondering what her body is simply incapable of doing. I asked Buck about it today. He told me that she may not be able to do the things his horse can do, but she can do what she can do, and there is nothing in that clinic that she is incapable of. He said to just ride her. ))))

I have also struggled over the years, feeling like my two mares have had to always be in the shadow of my late mare, Cheyanne. RIP Cheyanne, this was Snicker's moment. She was a rockstar and we rode with Buck Brannaman for hours, for four days straight. We both were committed, and gave to each other each step of the way. She gave me her all. My fear has been replaced with joy, which she so much deserves to have from me. She is my very special, Snickerdoo.

A few pics from the clinic:




























Very special picture here. This was the moment that I asked about Snickers having her hind end issues and how do I know if she is capable of doing these things physically? He told me that she may not be able to do everything his horse can do, but she can do everything she can do, including what was asked at that clinic. He told me she is not lame and to just ride her and enjoy her.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)




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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He sounds a lot nicer and far more personable than some people make him out to be at these clinics


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> he sounds a lot nicer and far more personable than some people make him out to be at these clinics


amen,


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> He sounds a lot nicer and far more personable than some people make him out to be at these clinics


Jaydee....I was so nervous to meet him, thinking he wouldn't live up to my expectations, after hearing negative comments.

I can see where people may get some of these negative things. If you are a person that can't be told something without it being 'politically correct' or covered in sugar....then you may be a little too sensitive for the truth. He would mention things about many different disciplines, pointing out the contraptions that people use on their horses. He didn't have favorites or bite his tongue on riders that he has had ride in his clinics many times over. He was not impressed by any fashion show or people that would feel like they were going to show Buck how they ride instead. He told us that if we tried our hardest and were there to learn, he would give us everything. So, if he did clinics where the riders didn't seem interested, then he wasn't interested either and probably did more rope tricks in the center instead.

People also have to remember, that he spends most of the year traveling to give clinics. So, he is not at home to train his horses. So, he uses his time wisely by teaching us while teaching his own horse as he goes. So, if he is doing something on his horse, or swinging his rope, he is killing two birds with one stone basically.

This was my take on it all. I think he was very serious and passionate with what he does. He is very good at it too. He is honest, warm, wise, tells you like it is and takes no bs. He told us that it was ten years before Ray Hunt offered him any type of comment that made him feel like he was doing ok...lol.

It was also refreshing to not have half of an arena filled with him marketing himself. Just a little card table with flags, his book, or his video.

I respect him more, than I did before. I can't wait to get the opportunity to ride with him again. It was really an honor for me.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Another complaint I have heard is people saying that all you do at his clinics is a few basic exercises, over and over, like it's boring. I think he bases what exercises he teaches individually at each clinic, depending on what he sees the group needs to do. Then he will make the group perform those exercises, as long as he feels they need to. I think that was the most important thing, doing the same exercises over and over...because that is how I eventually felt the change and got it!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I often think some people are not as good as they think they are so can't deal with criticism or going back to basics
If I pay for a lesson and don't get lots of critique then I feel like I've wasted my money because I'm there to have my faults picked out and corrected


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Observation I have made with Snickers. Her neck crest is muuuuuuch more supple and smaller. The changes that have been made are that she is no longer fed alfalfa of any kind and exercise that is not as restricted, where I'm asking for her to do more work than before.

Chiro also came out yesterday and complemented how well Belle and Snickers both seem. She mentioned possibly from their feet being trimmed helping them move. So that was great!

I also noticed, that when I turn Snickers out in the grass pasture now, she canters on her own a lot more than she used to without all of the stifle popping stuff. Maybe it's more comfortable now???

I'll try and get some pictures!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

URL=http://s381.photobucket.comhttp://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo260/Ashersz08/10251947_10203726561109363_951459996448479452_n_zps9f2fce53.jpg


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Again.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Really???


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here is a quick video from my phone.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hY5I53SW70


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

she looks a bit slimmer than on an earlier post. i like the purrr you do for her to slow to a trot ! thats cute. I may have to try that for one i have that had been taught round pen means run like a nut case.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Took pictures today and sent them off with the application for Snicker's registration with the Pinto Assoc. Yay! Hopefully she will be registered as 'Sheeza Rockstar Snickerbar'. This horse proves to me everyday how special of a horse she is.

I rode Snicker's out on the trail yesterday and came to a steep hill that has a narrow trail that goes up it. When you get almost to the top, you have to squeeze between two dirt mounds that are like dirt walls to get through. Once you are on top, there is a cliff that over looks some duck ponds. I have always ridden PAST this and never thought to attempt it, instead going up a back way that is much gentler. Well, one of the girls I was riding with, encouraged me and I trust her.....so we went!!!! Snickers hesitated once we reached the final area where she had to squeeze through those dirt walls, but she followed the other horse through it just fine. THEN, we went down it too!!! She was so awesome! AND the other girl said her legs were working just fine!

Today I rode Snickers in the round pen, to practice some stuff from my lesson the other day. We are working on bending her head to the inside and outside while still going forward on a circle. This is very hard for her to the left...she counter-bends that direction. I seem to counter-bend myself that way! But we are getting it now and she is picking it up very quickly. I'm also cantering her in the round pen, so I can focus on getting my position together. It really helped. That left direction is so hard for both of us, but it is coming along a little better each time.

She is losing weight!!!










Here is a picture of the view on top of that cliff over looking the duck pond from last year, when I'd only walk her up it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A part of me thinks she could stand to lose more weight but then I look at her and see a cob that wouldn't look out of place in a UK show ring so she's close to being just right
She's come on so well, you must be so thrilled with her


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes Jaydee.....she can still lose more weight. But I'm thrilled that her crest has gone away significantly. She will never be a slim/dainty horse...she is quite stocky and wide. She is only 14.2hh and I never feel too big for her, so that says that she is not a small horse for sure!

We went out on the trail today and rode up and down that hill again. This time, we went by ourselves and left the other horses behind...she was fantastic!!

Going up.....









Going down.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Again....up......


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Went on a trail ride with friends, on Snickers. We had never been on this trail before, and there was an area where it dipped down, where the river, when flooded, brought garbage from TJ. Snickers did not want to cross!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFPQDLEF4Ao&feature=youtu.be

My friend got on her, to try and make her cross. She wouldn't, until I crossed first!! Crazy horse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWTlxT0bIkY&feature=youtu.be


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She probably won't give it a second look the next time


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> She probably won't give it a second look the next time


You are probably right Jaydee! We will be experiencing it again in the next few days!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Couldn't help it....had to post this. This was the final meeting of 'The Biggest Loser' at our ranch. Snickers photo-bombed the picture!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think HF has something going on against me because I can't see any pics - sometimes I can and then sometimes I cant
I keep checking back in to see if somethings changed!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I think HF has something going on against me because I can't see any pics - sometimes I can and then sometimes I cant
> I keep checking back in to see if somethings changed!!


Ohhhhhh, keep trying Jaydee! Picture is very cute. We were getting a group picture, and Snickers just started smiling with us!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Finally got it!!
She knows she's the star of the show doesn't she!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> Finally got it!!
> She knows she's the star of the show doesn't she!


Well, she did lose weight too and wanted it known!! Yes, she is something.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Snickers is doing soooooo well. The crest on her neck is normal!!!










While she doesn't love the water like Belle, she is getting closer and less reactive about the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3cMZWMmeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDh6Yn2zOA


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