# Help me out - She's brown, not bay, right?



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Alright so me and my Mom are arguing over this so I want to get a second opinion.

My Mom says Selena is bay. I say she is brown based on what I have read on here. It is quite possible I am wrong. She has very black points but her "soft" areas lighten a lot in the winter. There is no mistaking a brown horse in the winter, right? 

Also, her sire is Lean With Me who I'm positive is brown unless everything I've guessed is wrong so far.











Her dam was a solid sorrel. No pictures though.

Here is a link to her pedigree.

Leana Little Quarter Horse

Pictures of the little monster:





































So, what's the verdict based on the info here? I know there's not a huge amount of difference between brown and bay but I'd like to make the best educated assumption without testing.


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

The horse in the pictures with the rider etc is a wry clear bay. Blood bay if you want to be specific. This is because she is a reddish overall body colour with clear black points on her legs and mane and tail. If she were brown then her whole body would be one colour with hard to distinguish black points and possibly brown mane and tail. The picture of the horse at the top, the sire? That is a brown horse.  hope this helps
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Very*
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm gonna say she's brown. The light tan on her muzzle, by her eyes, and in her soft points are good indicators of brown.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

However the rest of her body is clear bay??
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Morgan Colors- The Base Colors: Chestnut, Black, Bay and Brown Morgan Horses
Based on genes, and on the photos posted, the horse can be bay with a light nose but this horse is definitely NOT brown.
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## KyMoMoF3CuTiEs (Feb 5, 2013)

Are bays not brown? The undercoat? Or is it red? 
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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Wildcard said:


> However the rest of her body is clear bay??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you understand what it means to be genetically brown vs bay? The OP's horse is clearly brown. And the darker horse at the top of the page is bay. Genetically speaking, of course. _Litterally_though, yeah, they are both brownish. :wink:


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Bay is the agouti gene, can be variations of red and brown however there is a distinct difference between what is commonly seen as bay and brown. My friends blood bay Arab is the exact colour as this horse and he has been colour tested.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

I believe you are backwards lol


grayshell38 said:


> Do you understand what it means to be genetically brown vs bay? The OP's horse is clearly brown. And the darker horse at the top of the page is bay. Genetically speaking, of course. _Litterally_though, yeah, they are both brownish. :wink:


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Shade of body color has nothing to do with it. Agouti has three variations. Standard bay, Brown, and Wild bay.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

It's quite possible to have a brighter red base coat and still technically be a brown. 

Compare the OP's horse to my old gelding, who is a definite bay. Notice there are no lighter areas on my gelding like there are on the OP's horse.








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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

This horse is a standard bay according to the markings and colour and markings. Not a brown.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Look on the website I posted. The first horse listed is a genetic bay and has light muzzle. So is my friends Arab who has been colour tested and found as a bay!!
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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Incorrect. 



> Modifying black: Agouti (bay, brown, or solid)
> 
> We've only discussed one LOCUS (spot where a pair of genes exists) on the horse's chromosome, so far: the E/e locus. Now we move on to another one, the AGOUTI locus, which contains a pair of genes that only affect black pigment.
> 
> ...


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

What are you saying is incorrect?


grayshell38 said:


> Incorrect.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

That the OP's horse is standard bay. It is Brown. Light coloration on the "soft" parts of the horse. Muzzle and around the eyes.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The first horse on the website you posted is a wild bay, which yes, have lighter points. However, wild bay also affects the leg points and mane, making them less black. The OP's horse has definite black legs and a black mane, nothing like the wild bay picture on that website.

I agree with grayshell that, without better pictures, the sire actually appears to be a (dark) true bay, not a brown.
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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Browns can have black points. That is a fact that I know. However, the shading (lighter muzzle, soft points light) will show a clear brown. A real bay won't have those shades. Right?

bay: "will limit the black pigment to the points (mane, tail, lower legs) of the horse."

brown: "will allow the black pigment to spread over most of the body, but restrict it on the muzzle and underbelly, etc., causing those areas to be a tan color. "


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

unnecessary double when I realized I could still edit lol


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

:S I have seen the DNA clarification for a horse that is the exact colouring of this horse and it is a bay. I don't remember whether it is wild bay or standard.
The light muzzle can be caused by the wild bay gene. I've never heard of a horse with a red body be called brown. :/
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SorrelHorse, does her color vary season to season? As in, she's one shade of red in the summer and a different shade in the winter? That's another hallmark of brown. The gelding that I posted the picture of (who is a true bay) was the same color always, regardless of season.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

My suggestion to the OP is that if you want a clear answer, get testing done  because its clear we can sit here and argue every point forever and ever! Lol or just decide based on information on websites etc and figure out what she is in your opinion!
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Wildcard said:


> :S I have seen the DNA clarification for a horse that is the exact colouring of this horse and it is a bay. I don't remember whether it is wild bay or standard.
> The light muzzle can be caused by the wild bay gene. I've never heard of a horse with a red body be called brown. :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like I said, wild bay would affect the legs and mane, turning them lighter like the soft points. The OP's horse is not wild bay and unless she has pangere (which I highly doubt), given the mealiness of her soft points, the only other option is brown.

Wildcard, check out the thread on here called The Bad-*** Brown (or something like that). There's a lot of browns on there that are lighter.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Wild bay can manifest in more than one way and not always affect the mane. 
Again, my friends horse looks like this one and is NOT a brown. Does NOT have the gene for a brown horse and he has the light nose and eyes too.
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Ill check that out! I'm just very confused as it goes against the actual tests we have from the uni for my friends horse!
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Wildcard said:


> Wild bay can manifest in more than one way and not always affect the mane.
> Again, my friends horse looks like this one and is NOT a brown. Does NOT have the gene for a brown horse and he has the light nose and eyes too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But does he have the lighter soft points (inside of elbow, under flank, etc) that the OP's horse has?
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes he does. He could be here twin other than he has only a snip no star!
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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Wildcard, I'm sorry for sounding rude, but I really don't take any credibility from "my friend's horse looked like this"....

I'm not completely ignorant, I know my mare is definitely not a wild bay.

Yes, Aires, in the summer she is a bright copper/red color.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Wildcard said:


> The light muzzle can be caused by the wild bay gene.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except if it was wild bay, then her horse would not have black legs or black mane and tail. Which leaves: Brown. 

What a horse expresses as their phenotype, is not always congruent to their genotype. 

Case and point, guess what color this horse is genetically-


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> Yes, Aires, in the summer she is a bright copper/red color.


But she's darker in the winter (like the last pic you posted)? If so, then I still say she's brown. Would be interested to see what Chillaa and NDAppy have to say.
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> Case and point, guess what color this horse is genetically-


I know!! I know!!!

And, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't wild bay pretty much always express in the same way (light legs and mane with black on the end of the muzzle and ears tips)?
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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for being rude when I was just trying to help. I'm repeating what I know and do not appreciate being basically called a liar. 
Have fun figuring out what colour your horse is. If you were asking what she was, how do you know she's not a wild bay? Doesn't make sense to me..


SorrelHorse said:


> Wildcard, I'm sorry for sounding rude, but I really don't take any credibility from "my friend's horse looked like this"....
> 
> I'm not completely ignorant, I know my mare is definitely not a wild bay.
> 
> Yes, Aires, in the summer she is a bright copper/red color.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm curious too! I'd love their opinions on this.

Of course now I'm looking at these pictures I have of her in the summer and wondering about how big of a difference there really is, and how much I might be exaggerating what my mind THINKS it sees in her vs. what the photo proof is telling me. :lol:

Summer:



















Hmmm. She looks lighter but not a significant amount I guess. Am I overthinking?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Wildcard said:


> Thanks for being rude when I was just trying to help. I'm repeating what I know and do not appreciate being basically called a liar.
> Have fun figuring out what colour your horse is. If you were asking what she was, how do you know she's not a wild bay? Doesn't make sense to me..
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't ever say you were lying. Nor did I imply it.
I simply stated I don't think that statement is a credible one. Never said you were telling me lies.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

There is a difference. Not huge, but she is definitely darker in winter and you can see the lighter soft points.
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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I know!! I know!!!
> 
> And, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't wild bay pretty much always express in the same way (light legs and mane with black on the end of the muzzle and ears tips)?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I never was too fond of this color until I ended up with one. (Not this shade, mind you, but genetically speaking...):wink:

Bay, brown, and Wild bay are black base. They are black horses that are affected by the Agouti gene. The three colors/patterns whatever, are three variations on that gene. 

Agouti suppresses the black body color of the horse and pushes it to the points. Each of the variations affect the black in differing amounts. 

Bay pushes the black to the points of the horse. 
Brown does the same but causes lighter coloration at the soft points of a horse. 
Wild Bay really pushes the black off the map. Very low or nonexistant black points. Also, may demonstrate lightening on soft points.

Definitely NOT a pro or anything, this is just my plebeian go at it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> Bay pushes the black to the points of the horse.
> Brown does the same but causes lighter coloration at the soft points of a horse.
> Wild Bay really pushes the black off the map. Very low or nonexistant black points. Also, may demonstrate lightening on soft points.


That's the way I understood it, too.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Sorrel, I would love to see Selena tested, just to satisfy my own curiousity. I personally think that she is probably going to test as being bay. However, I would hesitate to just call her bay, because she definitely has the lighter soft points, which a "real" bay does not. So go test her *poke*

Wildcard - just a few clarifications for you. First of all, there is no way that the OP's mare is wild bay. Wild bay restricts black extremely, and this includes on the legs and the mane and tail. Selena has far too much black on her legs for wild bay to be even a remote possibility. Secondly, the tests run by most labs for "bay" are not testing for the bay gene, but assuming it is there by elimination. They actually test for the recessive agouti gene, and if they cannot find it, they assume that the horse is carrying a dominant agouti gene. However, the flaw of this test is that there are three dominant agouti genes - wild bay, classic bay and brown - but the labs do not distinguish between them. The only lab that has any test that does is Pet DNA, so unless your friend had her arab tested through that particular lab, then the test result doesn't say the horse is bay - the results actually say the horse is not unrestricted black.


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah I realized she is not a wild bay, I got confused there  and no my friend tested him through a university genetics lab, it cost her 50$ and they sent the paper back saying something along the lines of dominant agouti 
Etc therefore the horse is tested as bay. Ill see if I can get her to scan the test for me. I'm not sure what you mean by pet lab?


Chiilaa said:


> Sorrel, I would love to see Selena tested, just to satisfy my own curiousity. I personally think that she is probably going to test as being bay. However, I would hesitate to just call her bay, because she definitely has the lighter soft points, which a "real" bay does not. So go test her *poke*
> 
> Wildcard - just a few clarifications for you. First of all, there is no way that the OP's mare is wild bay. Wild bay restricts black extremely, and this includes on the legs and the mane and tail. Selena has far too much black on her legs for wild bay to be even a remote possibility. Secondly, the tests run by most labs for "bay" are not testing for the bay gene, but assuming it is there by elimination. They actually test for the recessive agouti gene, and if they cannot find it, they assume that the horse is carrying a dominant agouti gene. However, the flaw of this test is that there are three dominant agouti genes - wild bay, classic bay and brown - but the labs do not distinguish between them. The only lab that has any test that does is Pet DNA, so unless your friend had her arab tested through that particular lab, then the test result doesn't say the horse is bay - the results actually say the horse is not unrestricted black.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Wildcard said:


> Yeah I realized she is not a wild bay, I got confused there  and no my friend tested him through a university genetics lab, it cost her 50$ and they sent the paper back saying something along the lines of dominant agouti
> Etc therefore the horse is tested as bay. Ill see if I can get her to scan the test for me. I'm not sure what you mean by pet lab?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she tested through a uni lab, then she didn't test for a dominant agouti gene, but rather the lack of a recessive one.

The generic agouti test seeks the recessive "a" allele. If they find two, then the horse is not carrying agouti, and is "a/a". If they find one, they get a result along the lines of "a/_", and if they don't find any, they get a "_/_". The labs then fill in the blanks with a dominant gene - "A". They haven't detected a dominant gene, just a lack of the recessive one. So while they can tell how many dominant genes are there through elimination, they can't tell what dominant gene it is.

Pet DNA of Arizona is a private lab. They are the lab that has isolated the gene responsible for brown, and are the only lab that tests for the dominant allele on the agouti locus.


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Agouti - Horse Coat Color
Here's the place she got the test from, I'm in the process of sending my grullas DNA in to see if he has a red or not. I see what you mean about how it just says testing for the dominant, I would imagine your right in that they assumed it would be bay. This stuff is all so complicated! Ill stick to my duns and grullas  they're easier!
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Wildcard said:


> Agouti - Horse Coat Color
> Here's the place she got the test from, I'm in the process of sending my grullas DNA in to see if he has a red or not. I see what you mean about how it just says testing for the dominant, I would imagine your right in that they assumed it would be bay. This stuff is all so complicated! Ill stick to my duns and grullas  they're easier!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Until you get a brown dun - one that looks bay dun in summer, and grulla in winter.... *cackle*


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I would LOVE to get her tested and find out as well. Thanks for your input, Chiila. I like seeing what you have to say about these types of things.

Will be looking into the testing soon, lord willing.


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

My apologies for thinking you were being rude, I'm tired and cranky and took it the wrong way  good luck with your mare! 


SorrelHorse said:


> I would LOVE to get her tested and find out as well. Thanks for your input, Chiila. I like seeing what you have to say about these types of things.
> 
> Will be looking into the testing soon, lord willing.


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Lol! Or the claybank/ grey debate. Never a fun time  baby looks dun or grulla and grows up all funky computer til it turns grey  talk about confusing! I like my red duns, buttermilk duns and grullas 


Chiilaa said:


> Until you get a brown dun - one that looks bay dun in summer, and grulla in winter.... *cackle*


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## Wildcard (Mar 17, 2013)

Colored! Not computer. Sheesh autocorrect is hating on me today!
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Here is the link to the PetDNA lab. They test only for brown and aqouti status (homozygous/heterozygous), nothing else. Equine DNA Testing Lab | Pet DNA Services AZ


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Subscribing--I must know what the test results are--im thinkin 'A' not 'At', and this mare is definitely NOT 'A+' 

She has the light muzzle.. not really, but is kinda visable, but not light in the flank, belly, insides of legs, or girth/armpit area.. 

I do love her bright amazing color.. just sayin' ill come pick her up if youre disappointed in the results.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

IMO she will test bay instead of brown. If you test her let us know! 
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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I vote bay. Something is going on, but my horse does the same thing and he is clearly a bay. But at times he makes me think brown, and I'd be more inclined to call mine a brown than yours. Test! I'm curious!

Summer:

















Late fall: Slightly lighter areas on the withers and between his hind legs.









Early Winter, bay, no light areas.









Just the other day: Faded "feathers",lips, nose, around eyes, withers. He's shedding.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

I vote bay on the OP's horse. ;-) I'm not even close to an expert on color, but I feel like (especially in the first photo) you can see darkening around the eye and nostril/muzzle, however there's that puzzling tan muzzle in the last picture...

It'll be fun if you do have your horse tested! I wish we could put drink bets on the outcome. ;-)

ETA.. my "definite bay" actually has some light coloring around the sides of his muzzle, but definite black around his nostrils and front of the muzzle. I 100% say bay!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Flygap, your horse is definitely brown 

Existential, I think yours is brown too.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

My horse's first owners had him tested. He is definitely bay. ;-)


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> Flygap, your horse is definitely brown
> 
> Existential, I think yours is brown too.


Exactly what I was gonna type, lol. That horse is for sure 'At'


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

. Thanks! It's what I figured, but he's been called bay on here before so since I'm no color guru I went with it.

You guys rock!
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

existentialpony said:


> My horse's first owners had him tested. He is definitely bay. ;-)


As stated numerous times in this and many other threads, there is only one lab that tests for "brown" vs "bay" - the other labs just test for "has something there" without narrowing it down further.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I sometimes wish they would have named the color something other than "brown". Like Wild Bay - it seems easier for people to grasp that they are related genes and how the testing works if Bay would be in the name of the color. I never seem to have a problem explaining that wild bay is a variation of bay - everyone gets that, but for some reason those same people get lost when discussing brown.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown bay maybe? I agree that it can be confusing, but I think differently - I think that wild bay is the one that needs a different name. Not just to stop confusion, but for the sake of the horse. "Which one is yours?" "Oh, the wild bay." "Oh wow, so when are you going to break him?" "-.-"


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

LOL - I never thought of that!


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> As stated numerous times in this and many other threads, there is only one lab that tests for "brown" vs "bay" - the other labs just test for "has something there" without narrowing it down further.


Thanks for the presumptuous note. My gelding was foaled in Scottsdale, half an hour from that facility and tested there. Next time, try politely asking if he was tested at that facility or not before making assumptions.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Considering that 99.999% of the people who say their horse has test as bay have not tested with PetDNA I think that is/was a pretty safe assumption on Chiilaa's part.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Well, you know what they say when we assume...

I just thought there was no need to get rude about it (ie. the implication that I had ignored/overlooked previous comments that were alongside my own). Assumptions aren't an excuse.

Moving on.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

existentialpony said:


> Thanks for the presumptuous note. My gelding was foaled in Scottsdale, half an hour from that facility and tested there. Next time, try politely asking if he was tested at that facility or not before making assumptions.


Wouldn't it have been easier to post if/where he'd been tested instead of getting mad at someone for stating what color he is?


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Cat said:


> I sometimes wish they would have named the color something other than "brown". Like Wild Bay - it seems easier for people to grasp that they are related genes and how the testing works if Bay would be in the name of the color. I never seem to have a problem explaining that wild bay is a variation of bay - everyone gets that, but for some reason those same people get lost when discussing brown.


I'm with you 100% on that sentiment. I wish it were called seal bay (and am often tempted to use that instead of brown in posts...) It has already been used for a long time to describe dark bay horses, many of which are likely 'At' in reality. Then you could have classic bay, seal bay, and wild bay- seems a lot clearer that they're closely related colors to me! 

I think a lot of people who know just a little bit about genetics think that 'brown' is an uneducated term when they first hear it used to describe a horse (since so many horses have brown-ish colored coats) and don't realize it's based on a specific genetic marker.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

PetDNA actually refers to it as "seal brown"


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Interesting... they were the ones who isolated the gene, right? So whose idea was it to call it just 'brown'?  With this new info, I feel OK calling it seal bay going forward ;-)


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

MsBHavin said:


> Wouldn't it have been easier to post if/where he'd been tested instead of getting mad at someone for stating what color he is?


Not to perpetuate this... but I did point out that my gelding was tested before this comment. Given the conversation and also the little "not really anyone's business" since I wasn't asking what color he was, I didn't feel the need to qualify where until I was reproached.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

existentialpony said:


> Not to perpetuate this... but I did point out that my gelding was tested before this comment. Given the conversation and also the little "not really anyone's business" since I wasn't asking what color he was, I didn't feel the need to qualify where until I was reproached.


Then I guess just ignore the conversation about him rather than get cranky over a color comment. Guess I just don't understand.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

And respectfully, you could do the same.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And like I pointed out, a majority of people who say "my horse has been tested" do not know about PetDNA being the only place that tests for brown and believes that any agouti test means their horse is bay. If you didn't want to be called out on it why didn't you just say you had him tested for brown, not just -


existentialpony said:


> My horse's first owners had him tested. He is definitely bay. :wink:


^ That leaves it wide open as to whether he was tested by PetDNA or elsewhere.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Gosh guys. And now I'm going to defer to the idea that this is none of your gosh darn business to begin with. I wasn't asking what his color was, I wasn't asking for approval. I was simply stating (with regard to the OP): similar to the OP's horse, my horse has some light coloring before the black on his muzzle, but he is tested bay. Are we done now?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*shrugs* You're the one that has the issues with it being brought up about testing and Chiilaa commenting on what you said. If you didn't want comments in regards to what you post maybe you shouldn't post on a public forum...


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Well I try to stick to forums where people are predominantly civil and respectful. Sadly there will always be those lackluster individuals who simply love to step on toes. Doesn't mean I let them walk all over mine, though.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And who was trying to step on your toes? No one. 

In all honesty you are the one who got bent out of shape at Chiilaa's reply, and the subsequent ones by myself and MsBehavin.


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

Enough!
Move on.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Careful, if we don't stop "last wording" we will get the sister involved!!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*sits on hands and tries to look innocent*


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Careful, if we don't stop "last wording" we will get the sister involved!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Be afraid, be very afraid...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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