# Farrier hitting horses.. Opinions?



## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

Personally, I don't mind it if it's not abusive and within good reason. Eventually your horse will stop pulling away, and stand quietly. If the farrier were to turn around and start whooping your horse like a crazed manic just for pulling away then yes i'd say get a new one, but if it's only a small reprimand for being irritating (pulling away nibbling butts, putting all the weight on the farrier) it's no biggie IMO.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i think its ok as long as its not abusive. i trust my farrier and i also dont want him to get hurt. if that means he has to hit my horse, im sure they deserved it.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

That's a tough one. Knee jerk reaction is to say, nobody should be hitting your horse. Farriers though have to work in a very dangerous area and it's not their job to train the horse. While she might not be using the best method to keep the horse from pulling back, she sounds like she's doing what's necessary to keep herself from getting kicked. 

Like you said, a good farrier is hard to come by. I finally found one worth his weight in gold, and my horse chose his first visit to act like a butthead. He repeatedly pulled his hind legs back and really ticked him off. I spent the next six weeks working with him on ground manners. Everyday I would pick up his back legs and just hold them. I didn't put them down until he was completely relaxed. I also did some other respect related things such as yielding his hind quarters, sending him through tight spaces and backing up all on a longe line. Next time my farrier came out, he stood like a champ. 

My point is, meet her half way. Try to provide her with a more compliant horse next time around. If you absolutely object to her hitting him, maybe ask that she simply hold the leg until he relaxes it. If you do the exercises in advance, you're horse should respond to it quickly and maybe she'll be good with that compromise. That's all I've got.


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## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

I view it kind of the same as with kids, there's a difference between a spanking and a beating. When it goes beyond disaplant to aggression, then theres a problem


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## wildberryxX3 (Jun 28, 2010)

I don't mind. I've witnessed my farrier give some horses a few pretty good whacks. He's probably the best farrier in our area and a very widely respected horseman in general. Not once have the "whacks" been uncalled for. He simply doesn't tolerate any nonsense - from any horse. He works in a dangerous area. If he has a horse that doesn't respect him, he's not going to tolerate it. He is in no way abusive, and the horses usually learn after a few good ones that enough is enough and they don't give him anymore problems in future visits. I love my farrier.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> That's a tough one. Knee jerk reaction is to say, nobody should be hitting your horse. Farriers though have to work in a very dangerous area and it's not their job to train the horse. While she might not be using the best method to keep the horse from pulling back, she sounds like she's doing what's necessary to keep herself from getting kicked.
> 
> Like you said, a good farrier is hard to come by. I finally found one worth his weight in gold, and my horse chose his first visit to act like a butthead. He repeatedly pulled his hind legs back and really ticked him off. I spent the next six weeks working with him on ground manners. Everyday I would pick up his back legs and just hold them. I didn't put them down until he was completely relaxed. I also did some other respect related things such as yielding his hind quarters, sending him through tight spaces and backing up all on a longe line. Next time my farrier came out, he stood like a champ.
> 
> My point is, meet her half way. Try to provide her with a more compliant horse next time around. If you absolutely object to her hitting him, maybe ask that she simply hold the leg until he relaxes it. If you do the exercises in advance, you're horse should respond to it quickly and maybe she'll be good with that compromise. That's all I've got.


This is my opinion. Farriers are literally in danger of dying when working under a horse. It is dangerous, and they will often correct a horse if it gets to be too much. If you don't want her correcting your horse, train it to stand properly.. especially if it is kicking out or acting like it might. I'm not sure if you mentioned kicking out because your horse does it or just for opinions.. but a horse kicking out when the farrier has his or her head down there could seriously injure or kill them, if not end their career. They aren't going to want to risk that, and you aren't paying them to train your horse for you, you're paying them to trim/shoe properly.. so if your horse is acting up, work with him, and perhaps discuss it with your farrier.. he or she -might- be willing to work with your horse as well for an additional fee.


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

NOBODY hits my horses! If they are having a problem standing for the farrier, then I have some training issues to take care of. If a farrier felt that my horse was misbehaving to the point that he wanted to smack him, I would rather he just walk away and I will gladly find another farrier.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

^^what if the show is halfway on and your horse is trying to kick him ?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If it were legal I'm sure the farrier would rather hit the owner than the horse. I only shoe my own horses and sometimes I have to give them a whack to get them paying attention and behaving themselves but most of the time I do it because I am frustrated and loose my temper. 

I think if your farrier has to strike your horse you need to work on your horse so that it doesn't happen anymore. It is not the farriers job to train or correct your horse.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

If the horse deserves it then so be it. It's just like a child getting a spanking.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I trim my own horses and have smacked them couple times. Usually, its because they did the same thing a few minutes before and I'm fed up. As long as it isn't abusive I don't see the problem. Its not ideal, but things in the moment rarely are.


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

If what the horse is doing is putting the farrier into an even more compromising, unsafe position than they are already, then I have absolutely no problem. I've been blessed with horses that stand like saints for the farrier, but I also know of horses that are incredibly ill-behaved, and a good smack from the rasp quiets them down right quick. The farriers we use are absolutely incredible at their jobs and I have no problem with them smacking a horse so they can finish what I'm paying them to do.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I am one of the lucky ones. My farrier, who is also my brother, has the same mentality in handling horses that I do and I trust his decisions. The way I see it, if the horse is pulling away or being silly because it's green or scared, then it just needs some more time and patience. However, if it's leaning, pulling, or kicking/pawing just to be obnoxious, then by all means give them a good whack to get their attention and respect focused back on him.

If it was a different farrier handling my horse, it would be strictly on a case by case basis and I would watch them closely to make sure that I approved of the way they handled a situation. If I thought the horse needed a pop, then I would not condemn the farrier for giving them one.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

It truly depends on how they hit the horse and with what. If the farrier took one of the tools and smacked the horse, that would not be okay. If it was say, my horse chewing on the farrier's butt, I would say it is alright for her to give that nosey horse a smack on the nose. Not a punch, but maybe a slap. If the horse pulled it's foot away, then that wouldn't be okay. That is not an aggressive act by the horse, so it shouldn't be really punished. The ferrier should just pick up the foot again.

If a horse kicks out at a ferrier with it's ears pinned, then the ferrier should have the right to have the horse do a couple circles and smack it with a leadrope a few times. 

If a horse is absolutely not listening, the ferrier should have the right to decline that customer. A person should be able to decide what they can and cannot handle. And if someone spazzes out at every tiny movement an animal makes they obviously shouldn't be a ferrier. (Or in anyway associated with any living creature.)

But there is no reason that a farrier has to deal with a poorly trained horse. If your horse is doing something wrong then you should defiantely fix that behavior, thusly making the farrier less of a trainer and more of a person who grooms horse's feet. If a farrier is flying off the handle for something, than that is the farrier's fault.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I told my farrier (because I cannot always be around when he shows up because he likes to shoe while I'm in school rather than wait until 5PM in the afternoon or so) to discipline my horses (within reason) as he see fit. If they act up, they should know better, and he has my permission to give them a good whack if they are acting out. That's usually all it takes (one whack) and then they stop.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

I agree with Kevin. However my friend's farrier (and by default, MY farrier, because I keep my horse with hers), is a jerk and as much as I hate HIM, he handles the horses very well and never has to strike one, even if it's misbehaving. When I got Savanna, the first time I had her trimmed he asked how she does with the farrier. I said I wasn't sure, but she picked up all her feet without a fuss. He just grumbled and said "Picking them up and putting pressure on them is completely different." He was right... she does not like all that pressure on her tootsies...lol. He never struck her, he just moved with her and hung on to her. Which surprises me, since he's such a jerk. Lol


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## AngieLee (Feb 20, 2011)

It really depends on the situation. the job there doing is extreamly dangorous, one wrong mood can seriously hurt them, even kill them. I think it really depends on what the horse is doing. If the horse is trying to kick them/bite them etc then yes a good whack is not out of order. But if there just trying to pull there leg away (unless there doing it in an extreamly violent or agressive mannor) i dont think hitting them is nesasary. Just hold on until they stop (which most will) or pick it up again if you can't hold on.

If its something that doing a bit of extra work with your horse can fix, then i would put the effort into doing that. It will make you, your horse, and your farrier alot happier and more comforable in the long run


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Katesrider011 said:


> If the horse deserves it then so be it. It's just like a child getting a spanking.


A child getting a "spanking" is much different. Spanking is a punishment. A horse doesn't think like that. Striking a horse for doing something wrong, if that is your chosen correction, has to be done timely and appropriately. If a horse bites you, you don't hit it on the rump. If a horse kicks you, you don't hit it on the neck. Saying a horse "deserves" to be struck is kind of close-minded thinking. You have to see it from the eye of the horse. What are they interpreting your strike as? Are they even associating it with the bad behavior? Sometimes striking the horse benefits nothing but the person's temper.


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## arashowjumper (Apr 28, 2011)

if its not abuse it just discipline i personally think the farrier has has the more dangerous horse, i have seen very bad accident happening to them just cos the horse doesent satnd still.
my ferrier is very prestigious one here in mexico and he is also a very good friend of mine, when he is working with my horses he is very kind an speak to them, so the horse will hear is him behind them not something elase, he works wit my yearling and green horses. but if they dont behave or stand still he does give them a couple of smacks, i dont have a problem with it cos he is not abusive he does it if its necesary, and i dont want him to get hurt.
and horses do lern, about it and srat cooperating with the ferrier.
about gettinn another ferrier to do the job, well you saw what your ferrier did to your horse only you can say if it was abuse or not, in my personal way if it was abuse i would certainly change the ferrier if not its just maners


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree its all in context. I actually wish my farrier would be more firm with my gelding.

Now my horse practically sleeps while getting shod. But it means he starts to lean...and lean hard. He also has a tendency to want to lay down after a while. Now my farrier just lets his hoof down when he starts to lay down. But that means that the next time he picks it up Jake starts to bow/lay down faster than before because he was rewarded for it. So I stay with my farrier when he shoes and I either use my palm to slap or I will 'bite' (open finger skin grab) under his belly to pick him up. If the farrier has to drop his hoof he gets a good wallop on the side from me. He now does it less and less.

On the other hand I have heard stories of farriers who would start kicking horses that act like Jake. I would never tolerate anyone to kick my horse. But a couple slaps with the hand or lead rope would be fine if the horse was being vicious or just plain mischievous.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

My very first horse had an attitude problem, she'd been passed from one new horse person to another and as a result, she tested each and every new person that handled her, just to see what she could get away with. I warned my farrier of this, she acted up, he gave her a warning. Tried it again, he smacked her one and that was that. She just needed to know that *he* meant business, she already knew I did and wouldn't have tried it with me.

It's not something my farrier normally does but he recognized like I did that unless she knew that he wasn't going to tolerate her crap, she would only get worse. I was fine with it, needed to happen!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I would not risk my farrier's income nor his health. I have a horse that just stands there, so it's fine. My previous horse was not so easy, so I made sure I was there, and I disciplined her, however when he did, that's fine too - I am not about to cover his wages for 2 weeks for a broken bone, or his loss of clients in that time - and really 2 weeks is about all they take off for a broken bone!


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

imho farriers should be patient for horses that pull away. My old horse hates getting shoes nailed on and would pull away a lot. My old farrier would stay calm no matter how peeved he was and would just follow the horse and keep at it. He would also start by just tapping his hoof and then the shoe with the hammer and would just 'play him a tune' as he put it until he stood.
My new farrier is amazing. She's been doing my new young horse since he was a 3 year old. So he pulled away a bit and tried putting all his weight on her and would try nibble anything/everything in her back pockets/tool belt. She never once lost her temper or lashed out at him. She would just follow him when he pulled and talk nicely and gentlly move his head away if he was nibbling and if he tried to lean on her she would just move away and let him fall off balance. He's gotten the hint and now she comes and trims him alone without my help.
So in short, no. I dont think its appropriate for your farrier to take it upon themselves to correct your horse for pulling a leg away or leaning on them. The only time it would be ok is if the horse tried to kick. As the owner you should be working with your horse to have them used to having their feet messed with and train them to stand yourself and not leave it to the farrier to correct bad behaviour. (im not saying you personally dont it was generalised)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Savvy Debonair (Feb 11, 2010)

I had this same issue. We used a farrier that the old owner used to use and he already new how to handle what Red was going to do. Before i got Red, the lady warned me that he had been beaten by a different farrier that never saw hide nor hair of Red again after that. Red hadn't been farried in a long time and was rearing, backing, pulling back and wrenching his feet away. And not once did this farrier hit him. The other one though, had pulled the rope from the lady's hand and continuly walloped Red with it. Needles to say this didnt help anything and traumatised Red beyond words.

Heith took 2 hours to shoe Red when i first got him. The last time he was out it took 15 minutes . Time paitence, ground manners and trust go along way to having a horse well handled and paitent, so just discuss the way the farrier works and how the horse is before hand, and finding a paitent farrier that knows how to handle the traumatised, antsy or impaitent horse can really be a god send. If you cant training, training, training.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

IMO jerking a foot away is as bad as a kick. The intention may be different from the horse's point of view but I've seen the damage unclenched nails can do to a farrier & a horse. Heck, even an unrounded hoof can cause quite a slice, not to mention the sharp knife that is usually involved. 
The farrier can reacte much quicker than the handler to what is happening. I don't mind them giving a slap when needed. 
There's been lots of times while I've been holding a horse that I've said,"My end is OK."


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

IMO if the horse deserved it, the horse deserved. They are big animals and and especially where the farrier is they can do a lot of damage. They need manners. I don't mean go abuse it but I do expect my horses to behave when having their feet done. One of my boys has a tendency to kick out with his back feet occasionally and I don't accept that no matter what. Then my other boy usually falls asleep when his feet are being done but twice recently he reared and kicked out quite violently with my farrier. I was very embarrassed and got up him for it. The last visit I had the other horses tied up nearby to test a theory as to why he suddenly did it and I am now going to work with him at home and with his feet. 

My farrier is great. Never has he gotten up my horses he has left it to me even when apache reared up on him. He just said I've had worse, he is an awesome farrier. I wouldn't say anything if he did hit one of mine though because if he did they probably deserved it.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

Hmmm my farrier has never hit or abused my horses All he does is just tell them to stand if they start to shift around. He hasn't evr hit them or anything so I'm thankful. Hmmmm my opinion would be to may e approach your farrier and tell her that u do t like it etc. A farrier has the right to do their job which is shoeing etc not to teach horses not to move etc. I do t thInk she should have hit them because it might have only made it worse hitting will not teach them to stand ! Do people hit their horse when the don't stand up ? Some do some don't. Anyway it's up to u


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

If it's warranted, I have no problem with a quick smack. All of mine pretty much stand ground tied, but our boss mare tests everyone new she meets. When our old farrier retired & we used our current farrier the first time, she was a pigheaded B and I told him prior she would test him and she needs to know who is boss or she will take full advantage. He smacked her once on the butt when she threw her weight and shoved him and she then stood like a trooper and hasn't given him a bit of grief since (this was almost 2 years ago). 

I do have a problem with farriers that smack for every little flinch or movement, there is a local guy who is known for taking his rasp to bellies and that I have big issue with. The current farrier has told me stories of horses he has done after this guy and how they shake like leaves as soon as a rasp is pulled out to be used. 

For me it depends on situation/horse and how it's handled. Being a farrier is dangerous work and if it's a choice between the farrier getting seriously injured or a horse getting a spanking, I'm all for the correction.


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## IPHDA (Jun 7, 2009)

Offer to pay him to train your horse properly to stand. It isn't the farriers job to train your horse to stand if he is paid to trim or shoe, 
I personally wont hit a horse very often because I do not think it helps as much as a lip cord etc. but the bottom line is if your horse wont stand and you are not as upset as the farrier and willing to fix the problem I would quit you as a customer or charge you a training fee.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I trust my farrier and if he feels my horse is doing something that is putting him at risk he has every right to correct my horse. Period. And yes, that means hitting them. 

Me correcting my horse while my farrier is under it really puts my farrier in danger. 

I try to present my farrier with horses who are clean and properly trained for his job to be as easy as possible. Like every living thing, the horses do not always want to be on the same page as we are.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Same farrier, two different horses.

The gelding had some traumatic times on a ranch just prior to coming to me, with holes in his sides from spurring. He would let me handle his feet, but was afraid of our farrier. The farrier spent 45 minutes round penning him until he calmed down for a trim. The farrier said it was worth it to him because the next time the gelding would be calmer, and the time after that would stand still - and it was true. No smack, just gentle working.

The mare has her faults, but she is great with farriers. Picks up her feet in order before he touches her leg & holds them for him. Once she suddenly pulled her leg away...and he gave her a smack on the shoulder with his file. She looked at him, he told her to stop being goofy, and she didn't move a muscle until he finished. Then he rubbed her face & she played with his hat.

The gelding was afraid and needed gentleness. The mare was just having a bad moment and needed to snap out of it. And the farrier was smart enough to know the difference & deal with each one as needed. Unfortunately, he has since needed back surgery and is now restricted to shoeing only a handful of horses...

And now BOTH horses stand calmly while being trimmed.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

If my horses are being pig headed i see no reason why they should not get a smack they are all thought to behave they just chose not to and need reminding!


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

IPHDA said:


> Offer to pay him to train your horse properly to stand. It isn't the farriers job to train your horse to stand if he is paid to trim or shoe,
> I personally wont hit a horse very often because I do not think it helps as much as a lip cord etc. but the bottom line is if your horse wont stand and you are not as upset as the farrier and willing to fix the problem I would quit you as a customer or charge you a training fee.



Exactly! 10 out of 10 here stand like statues and don't lean that is the first thing we teach them is to give the feet for cleaning and the farrier. 

That being said our guy is also a trainer we've used so not sure how to go about that.

As far as hitting... we don't hit we "bite" our horses, the lead ropes we use have a leather popper at the end a smack on the rump (never head) is the same thing as one horse nipping at another to Move the horse. 99% of the time one of us is on hand when they get trimmed so its not an issue.


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

None of my horses kick out, they all know better than that.. I just used that as an example. A couple have pulled their foot away before though (not aggressively) and they all stand there just fine, but as far as training goes, I pick my ponies feet frequently so it's not like there's really anything wrong with her, she merely pulled her foot away once.. And I'm ALWAYS there when the farrier comes because I hold the horses while she works.

On another note, does your opinion differ depending on if they hit with their rasp or any other tool as opposed to just with their hand?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I think it depends on they hit with the rasp is how hard and why they hit the horse.... I believe if needed use whatever tool to defend yourself from the horse if they try to attack, but if you have one that wont give you feet easily you should work on that before the farrier shows up..... if a new arrival/rescue/abused and it needs the feet trimmed in dire cases you can use Ace, Dramosiban or other liquid trainer


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

We have a very friendly relationship with our farrier, and he's awesome enough that he's willing to crawl under every crack pot half crazed horse we drag home with bad feet. He has the patience of a saint, and he's willing to work with us on a badly handled or even dangerous horse, so yeah, I COMPLETELY trust his judgment if one of our older trained crew is getting silly and he sees fit to smack 'em in the belly and tell 'em to smarten up.

It really boils down to your farrier and your horses - our farrier knows our horses almost as well as we do, he knows which ones need a smack once in awhile to regain that attention and which ones are being frightened or anxious.

For the most part ours stand quietly, but you get the occasional foot yanker who's gotten bored and doesn't want to stand anymore, or the leaner falling asleep. I trust his judgment completely.


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## Azale1 (Jul 5, 2010)

It is is good reason like the couple you mentioned I encourage it. I had a farrier that didn't want to hit my horse when she acted this way cause he was afraid to affend me and I flat out told him to smack the crud out of her for acting that way. It is a dangerous job that they are doing and they need to have a horse that behaves properly and so I believe they should be allowed to discipline when neccessary. I also see no harm in using the rasp that is in there hand to do the job. I often time have smacked my horse with the pitch fork for being stupid in the stall. Deffinitely not going to harm the horse by using a tool that is already in your hand.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

To me, pulling away is just as bad as kicking when it comes to the farrier. When you've got a hoof between your legs and have a shoe partly nailed on, a snatched away leg can cause major damage, not just to the farrier, but to the horse as well. 
I allow any farrier I use to use their own discretion when it comes to disciplining my horses. Now, I know that certain ones have reputations for being rough, so I simply don't use them. 
I am also willing to pay a training fee if my horse doesn't stand. I try to prepare them for the farrier, but sometimes they can still act out. 
As to hitting with tools, that all depends. I've smacked a few bellies with the flat of the rasp to get horses to quit leaning on me. I don't wallop them, I just give a "hey you, stand the heck up" smack. If the rasp was smacked across a cannon bone or knee or such, injury can occur. That's not ok. Poking them with the rasp is fine, as long it isn't a hard stab. 
There's a line with discipline that you need to draw. If I were a farrier doing a customer's horse who was misbehaving, but I was told not to discipline it, I'd either not do another job for that customer, or honestly, I'd ask the customer to go grab me something from my truck and do what needed to be done. 
If you can't have your horse behave (not directed at anyone in particular, just in general), don't call a farrier and expect them to be able to do their job. They have a hard, dangerous job. They should be able to expect well behaved horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reiterin (Mar 28, 2010)

I quit using a farrier because he hit my horse with his tools. - My horse was not acting up or being stupid. She just needed a break.
the farrier I have now never loses his temper and gives my horse breaks when she needs it.
I will not tolerate people hitting my horse. especially with metal tools. 
Yelling "Hey!" to my horse is more than she needs for a "correction."
and I am always there to hold her when the farrier is there. *I* will correct her if she needs to be. - I know when she needs to be. and how much of a correction is called for.


(plus I hated that #$&%$&@ of a farrier to begin with. Hitting my horse was the Last straw.)


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

My last farrier got mad at Sienna (it was a really hot day, and she was the last in the barn to be worked with) because she was leaning on him, and he took the lead out of my hand and hit her over and over and made her back up the length of the barn. I was so horror struck I just stood there. I never had him again and he was a good farrier, but he wasn't in any danger, she doesn't kick out, or move all around. He was hot, sweaty, and frustrated. And her chubby little body was heavy. I never saw him again or I would have told him what kind of person I thought he was. I get hot, sweaty and frustrated too when I work with her sometimes. I stick her in a stall or turn her loose in the arena, and walk away.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Absolutely, I would let them. Encourage them, even. The farrier's job is to get the job done correctly while keeping himself and the horse safe. His safety feels violated, he corrects the problem. It's a hard life to be a farrier with a physical injury because some owner won't let him discipline the horse.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

HorseOfCourse said:


> On another note, does your opinion differ depending on if they hit with their rasp or any other tool as opposed to just with their hand?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. It does not change. I trust my farrier.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't mind a little lesson to the horse from the farrier, like i saw a couple of people say...if it were legal they'd probably want to hit the owner for leaving the problem for them to deal with.

My mare was acomplete brat the first time when I had her trimmed. If she wasn't trying to reach around and bite him on one side, she was trying to kick him with the other. He finally got fed up and (without being abusive) tuned her up. After that I picked her feet up before and after every session and also had other people pick hers up as well ... it is hard for the farrier to do his job if we haven't done ours first. 

I wouldn't be upset about him tuning your horse up a bit because if she was kicking at him a bit and making a fuss he had a reason and likely won't have to do it again.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't consider leaning and dozing dangerous. Annoying yes, but Sienna gets her feet picked every time I see her and I've always made sure I decided when she put them down. I guide her foot back to the ground. I'm just not going to allow anyone to whip my horse who was abused, and that I work on constantly by putting my finger in the side of her mouth, and rubbing her ears because she was so head shy, in the face with a lead rope to back her 30 feet. You all know your horses and what they need and I know Sienna is an easy handler for a farrier and it was my fault for not noticing she was dozing off. But it was not my fault it was hot, and he was tired and frustrated. They're job may be dangerous, but so is working at the 7-11 and those clerks don't make $200.00 an hour.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I don't consider leaning and dozing dangerous.


Said by someone who does not work under a horse and whose paycheck does not require them to be able to work under a horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I actually encouraged my farrier to smack my qh's butt couple times. Because she throws nasty attitude refusing to pick and hold her back feet, doesn't do it on me though (as she knows perfectly I'm not gonna coop with it). Usually a good smack reminds her to behave. He refuses though.  So I usually smack her myself and after that she stands. 

BTW I truly think it depends on horse and situation. I'd NEVER suggest to smack my paint as most probably she won't let that person near by anymore. And she's pulling her legs sometime not because of the nasty attitude, but because she's loosing her balance pretty easily (so he should keep her foot under certain angle). 

So the bottom line there is nothing wrong with disciplining the horse (and in fact it's an OWNER's responsibility, not farrier). However I have problems if it's done in anger (thankfully never run into it myself, but heard some stories on local forum).


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> I don't consider leaning and dozing dangerous.


I did trim myself for while (had to learn it due some circumstances). Let me tell you it is VERY dangerous and VERY hard on back job. Even my horses are not the best angels in world with all training put in (especially in summer time with tons of flies when nothing help against them). I would be too afraid to do other horse's feet. Because they can get that hoof right into your knee, stomach, hip, even face in matter of seconds. And if you talk to the farrier all of them (at least I know of) had an experience being kicked. Heck, my horse lost balance once and FELL on poor guy leg. Definitely not intentionally still hurt as much.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

sometimes the things we don't think can be dangerous are the most of all because we aren't prepared for them. My mare was bored once while I was picking her front leg up, she started leaning back and forth and fell forward onto her knee, almost crushed my hand. I gave her crap because my horse should always be paying attention to me when I am handling her.

I'm not saying your horse is intentionally prosing a threat, but a horse falling (which is the next step in leaning) can seriously hurt -if not kill a person. 

I understand your shock at how he handled it, and it may not conincide with your methods....but seeing as it already happened you have to look at how it affected the horse...is she more head shy than before, more spooky about people around her feet etc...if the answer is no, I would think that sh eis okay and didn't put that much stress on what he did. 

Then you decide if you want him to come back or not (completely your decision and do whatever you're comfortable with), chances are he wont have to do that again as he woke her up and told her 'no pay attention while i'm down there" ...regardless of if the message was approved by you or not, that was really what he told her.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> My last farrier got mad at Sienna (it was a really hot day, and she was the last in the barn to be worked with) because she was leaning on him, and he took the lead out of my hand and hit her over and over and made her back up the length of the barn. I was so horror struck I just stood there. I never had him again and he was a good farrier, but he wasn't in any danger, she doesn't kick out, or move all around. He was hot, sweaty, and frustrated. And her chubby little body was heavy. I never saw him again or I would have told him what kind of person I thought he was. I get hot, sweaty and frustrated too when I work with her sometimes. I stick her in a stall or turn her loose in the arena, and walk away.



Okay your story is a bit one sided, how and where did he hit the horse. if backing my guess is the farrier hit her on the shoulder with the end of the rope. To me hitting the horse means you take a club to its head (more common than one may think) if its using the lead and hitting them on the shoulder to back them its not hitting its Biting. Not trying to defend someone who beats on a horse but a little more information on what exactly the farrier did would help.


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## WalkerLady (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes, farriers should be allowed to smack a horse. My farrier is currently nursing a broken hand from being kicked by a misbehaving horse. Thankfully he has an apprentice who's doing the shoeing while he directs and watches him like a hawk, but now he has to pay his apprentice a lot more and its eating up his income. And what if he had no apprentice? Weeks of income down the drain, and lost customers. And what if it had been his head, not his hand?


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

Actually I used to trim myself, and when i was younger I helped shoe the Standardbreds at the stable I worked at. So I would say to you.......Said by someone who's never been robbed at 7-11 making minimum wage. 
Ledge.....I said on this same page:
I'm just not going to allow anyone to whip my horse who was abused, and that I work on constantly by putting my finger in the side of her mouth, and rubbing her ears because she was so head shy, in the face with a lead rope to back her 30 feet.
Kitten.....So the bottom line there is nothing wrong with disciplining the horse (and in fact it's an OWNER's responsibility, not farrier)
I said......and I know Sienna is an easy handler for a farrier and it was my fault for not noticing she was dozing off.
And Kstinson....You asked, I understand your shock at how he handled it, and it may not conincide with your methods....but seeing as it already happened you have to look at how it affected the horse...is she more head shy than before
Before I got Sienna her previous owners used a crop on her and her face WASN'T off limits. She will always be head shy, I just try to minimize it as much as I can. Can I measure how much it affected her, and how far back I had to start over? Not statistically. Did I have ground to make up? Yes, a lot. Is she shy about people picking up her feet? No, because what he did was so extreme she never connected it to her feet, only her head. By the time he brought her back to finish her feet, she stood good for him like she always does the farrier. 
I have not said a single thing about you allowing people to hit your horses have I? I said you know your horses and what you do is your choice. I think I should be allowed the same freedom.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> Actually I used to trim myself, and when i was younger I helped shoe the Standardbreds at the stable I worked at. So I would say to you.......Said by someone who's never been robbed at 7-11 making minimum wage.


Yes, but your lively hood did not depend on the paycheck you made trimming.
Ask any full time farrier and they will have a very different opinion than you do on leaning.

And being robbed at 7-11 did not make you not able to work for the next few weeks while your injured back muscles healed.
(Said by someone who was actually mugged leaving work one day.)

And really, leaning being bad is a separate topic than farrier disciplining the horse. Though I would expect my farrier to refuse to work if I was not willing to let them discipline and I was not taking care of it at my end.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Sorry morab, but leaning is _very_ dangerous for anyone working underneath a horse. 

If I'm not attentive enough to keep the horse from leaning on, biting, or kicking at my farrier he's allowed to discipline them, but I'm usually faster than he is at administering punishment.

My horses know what is and isn't tolerated, which is why they don't lean, bite, kick, etc.

Just because a horse_ was_ abused doesn't give it carte blanche to act like a spoiled brat. It's not being abused_ now_, so there's no reason to keep letting it get away with acting like a fool.

Too many people make excuses for their horses. I don't care what happened _before_ the animal came to me; once it's in my possession it needs to behave or there will be consequences.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

HorseOfCourse said:


> I don't really know where this should go but..
> 
> What is your opinion on your farrier hitting your horse? If it pulls it's foot away or kicks out is it okay to you? What would you do if a farrier did hit your horse?
> 
> ...


As with any horse situation – it depends.

First off I want to say that if my horse misbehaves for the farrier I am mortified, apologise to him/her and practice with my horse before the next farrier visit. I do not pay my farrier to make up for holes in my horses training.

But they are horses and training never ‘finished’ as such, it is an ongoing process so there can be hiccups here and there.

It depends on timing: If the horse needs to be disciplined because of bad behavior, the farrier better be bloody quick otherwise I will beat them to the punch so to speak. By the time the farrier has straightened up and recovered from being off balance, not only has the moment been lost somewhat, but I would have admonished the horse myself. 

It depends on the farrier: I trust my farrier to discipline my horse in the event that they feel they need to. I have been fortunate to have had excellent farriers and have never had a problem with their horsemanship. Although my horses stand very well for the farrier so it is a bit of a non-issue for me.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

sarahver said:


> As with any horse situation – it depends.
> 
> First off I want to say that if my horse misbehaves for the farrier I am mortified, apologise to him/her and practice with my horse before the next farrier visit. I do not pay my farrier to make up for holes in my horses training.
> 
> ...


Well said...and back on track! :wink:


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Great post sarah


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

My farrier has given Norman a few pretty good whacks with his file on a couple occasions. I don't mind at all, in fact, I'm grateful he's strict. Norm needs a firm hand.

It depends on how good of a horseman your farrier is, I guess. Mine really knows what he's doing, and he has never hit my horse when he didn't deserve it. Now, if you don't trust your farrier or if he has questionable methods, then obviously, find someone else.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I have not read all the posts here, but I will say, that if one of mine is being disrespectful and stupid-kicking, striking, etc, I would actually APPRECIATE someone correcting them. The time to do it is when it happens. Otherwise, you just have a bigger issue. My dentist kicked my guy today-with my blessing. The horse got "bored" and frustrated and struck at the dentist. Altho it was small, so was the kick, and I thanked him. Had he not done that, who knows what would happen the next time.
I wouldn;t have people working on my horses I do not know and trust.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

As a barefoot trimmer, I can tell you that there a few instances where a horse should be slapped for acting stupid. I have been dealing with a critical hyperextention of the right arm and shoulder for 5 months, all because a well behaved horse decided he had had enough. If an owner does not allow a horse to be repremanded by a farrier [correctly not abusively] than that owner should make sure they have sufficient insurance coverage and should really learn to be a farrier to protect the working farriers in their vicinity.


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## lucky13 (Nov 9, 2010)

That is a tricky one. I never hit my horse, but Im not the one under her in danger either. I would keep an eye on the farrier and make sure it doesn't get more often or more "abusive" It is very hard to find a good farrier and if she is as good as you say...she's good at it for a reason. (keep in mind..most horse professionals don't get into the profession to abuse horses, but to help them


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Our farrier hits our horses when they need it....our mare especially, can be a real jerk for the farrier. Last time she was acting up big time.....so he tried to see if she'd cool it, and when she didn't ....he gave her a good whack. 

It's ok with me because she did indeed deserve it. I agreed with him totally....must've been her "mare mood" time.


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## shelleyb (May 13, 2011)

Funny i was talking to my farrier about this last week.... i personally would NOT let a farrier hit my horse... But my mare is an angel for the farrier so should she get irrateable a firm "Scarlet!!!!" from me should do the trick! because she respects ME and listnens to me bacause im her owner!!

My sisters youngster (5) jumps about a bit for the farrier and hes 17.1hh... BUT bacause we KNOW him we understand that hitting him will just make him worse (we dont want to fight with a 17.1 horse lol) we know its best to just be patient with him and re-assure him!

Its not the farriers job to discipline the horse its the owner... if the owner decides to be a 'pushover' then its nobody elses problem and the farrier has the right to walk away!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Just a friendly reminder to STAY ON TRACK please and leave drama behind (the posts this is in reference to have been removed)...


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

For me it depends on why and how the farrier hit the horse.

I would NEVER allow a farrier to hit them with any form of tool or impliment and I have kicked a farrier off my yard when he swung a hammer at my horses ribs. Said horse was 20 years old and artheritic, he couldnt lift his leg very high due to stiffness (and for a 12.2hh pony a tripod is very high) and started fidgetting and trying to put his leg down after a while. The farrier had been warned that the ponies hocks were very stiff and that he couldnt lift them for long amounts of time.

I've no problem whatsoever with my farrier giving any of mine a dig in the ribs with an elbow if they are leaning and I have no issues with the farrier smacking my horses if they play up, but it must be timely, appropriate and with an open hand not a fist or a tool.

My current farrier I have used for 8 years, he is brilliant and I trust him to shoe all of mine without me present. My horses are well trained and will stand for the farrier. My farrier lso takes into account the age and stiffness of my ponies (one is 28, anouther is 30 and both are stiff in thier hocks) and doesnt ask them to hold thier legs up for long periods of time and he certainly doesnt ask a 12.2hh pony to put thier hoof on a tripod.
I am always the last visit of the day for my farrier as he KNOWS my horses are good and will stand and he knows that after a long, tiring and often dangerous day my ponies are quickly done and safe. This is also one of the reasons that I can get a shoe put back on a pony at 9pm at night before a major show but many people in the area struggle to get a farrier at all.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

It completely depends on context, in my opinion. I work part-time as a trimmer and maintain around 70 horses. I never hit or react to a horse who is nervous, inexperienced with the farrier, or has a good reason for moving or pulling away (feeling imbalanced, older or arthritic, etc.).

However, I WILL give a good smack to a horse who a) tries to kick me (not pulling, but intentionally kicking), b) leans heavily or tries to lie down and is not worried or afraid, c) tries to bite me, or similar scenarios in which the horse -knows- the job at hand and is being physically dangerous.

Those horses are few and far between in my experience, and I have cut a few out of my clientele simply because the owners are not interested or able to teach their horse to stand safely for me to work. Most can be taught to stand nicely within a few sessions, if the owner hasn't done it themselves (which is much too often the case).


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Maggie, My farrier is the same way, he only picks the well behaved clients!

and a +1 to Faye that guy should have known that horse was arthritic and made the proper adjustments to his work.

But i dont see a little nudge with a rasp into the ribs to make them behave, when i say nudge i mean nudge not a whack. Go read up on tom dorrance and his methods, and you too can speak like a horse.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

I think it definately has to do with the horse and the situation. 

Zippy my BO's horse had an abcess that blew. It was bad, right at his heel. Well after that he's always been sensitive about that foot. A little bit after it happened the farrier came out to trim the boys up and he lifted up Zippy's foot(which was completely healed) and Zippy threw him 20ft backwards. He grabbed the leadline, popped him on the butt and worked him in circles a few minutes. After he was done Zippy stood like a gentleman and has since.

In Poppy's case, Poppy is about 30 yrs old with bad ringbone and arthritis in his one back leg. He knows leaning is bad and the poor old man tries with all of his might to stay up as straight as he can but it he is on that leg for too long it starts to irritate him. Our farrier understands this and let's him have a break every so often so the weight doesn't irritate him and he doesn't punish for the leaning because he knows it's really not Poppy's fault. 

Now Phantom decided to act like a goober one day. I swear every day I have owned him the boy has ALWAYS been great for the farrier. This one day he was acting like a butt and trying to swing his butt around and calling to his friends. I was at his head "using my man voice" as my friends call it haha telling him to knock it off and what not but he wasn't quitting. The farrier looked at me and asked "Is it okay if I bop him on the butt?" I gave him a look and said "I was waiting for you to." He smacked him on the butt and Phantom was like "Oh crap!" Stood like a gentleman for the remainder of the trimming. Afterwards my farrier asked how old he was I was like "24-25ish." He started laughing and said he was more like 24 going on 2 the way he was acting. 

I like my farrier, the only reason he asked me with Phantom was because it was only his second time doing Phantom's feet and he didn't know how I was. He will usually work a horse in tight circles if they're being bad or he'll give them an open palm smack.


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