# Lethal White Overo info



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That site has ****ed me off more than one time. It was put up before it was proved that frame was linked to OLWS and was just still a theory. They are going off of the basis that they haven't lost 25% of foals so they believe the math is wrong. No they are wrong! It's a 25% chance of a lethal foal from _*EVERY BREEDIN*_G not ALL BREEDINGS. The "breeder" who wrote that site is in an irresponsible idiot for promoting and encourage frame to frame breeding. 

Anyone who intentionally breeds frame to frame is a moron IMPO. Same goes for people breeding HYPP for that matter. 

Breeding frame to frame DOES NOT increase your chance of producing a loud colored foal. All it does is give you the chance of a dead foal!

I personally know breeders who BRAG about breeding frame to frame and how many lethal foals they have produced over the years...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Hey guys long time no chat. I recently got into a fight with a local breeder over her willingness to breed LWO foals and sell the pregnant mares with no warning to potential buyers. She sent me this link as a rebuttal and as "proof that if you breed for 20 years, you are an expert." I just wanted some of our color experts to weigh in on this link as it seems like a big bunch of horse punky to me - relating to albinosim on horses??? Really??? Looking forward to responses!
> 
> Lethals White Gene - Page 1
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Welcome back, good for you for arguing, and the page you linked to is bull hockey. I find it amusing that she said he sired 210 foals and only 4 were lethal whites, but she made no mention of how many of the mares were themselves frame, which is what really matters. She gave the overall numbers as if they were a defense for breeding frames, yet for all we know, the 4 lethal whites represent 100% of frame to frame breeding. If her point was frame to non frame is OK, she sure went about it in the wrong way with her statistics. It sounds to me as if she is trying to justify breeding her frame stallion to anything that moves...frame or not...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> They are going off of the basis that they haven't lost 25% of foals so they believe the math is wrong. No they are wrong! It's a 25% chance of a lethal foal from EVERY BREEDING not ALL BREEDINGS.


This. This drives me nuts when people assume that their mare is going to produce 3 foals from frame to frame breedings and then is going to suddenly go, "Oh hey, that 25% thing. This fourth foal is going I have to die, I guess. "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. I read it and bashed my head on a desk but wanted to verify my source. The reason I am SO ****ed is this pregnant mare is for sale, in foal to a frame, and NO mention of it to future buyers. Its bad enough when you're irresponsible with your own horses, but dumping her on some poor unsuspecting sap is just beyond irresponsible!

She also brags about twins on her website though so why am I not surprised? She's also threatening to "sue me for slander" because I posted her Kijiji link on FB and warned my fellow friends. What a moron. It's not defamation if its the TRUTH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

broodmares for sale all exposed to stallions for 2013 foals! - Winnipeg Livestock For Sale - Kijiji Winnipeg

Home
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

"Exposed" - aka, I'm too lazy and cheap to actually have a vet check my dozens of done nothing broodmares to a bunch of done nothing stallions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Betting she's also one that believes that AQHA horses can't produced lethals as well...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

That website made my head hurt. Especially the twins "brag." 

Grammar, why hast thou abandoned us?! And thee, punctuation, thou charlatan!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Ahahahaha Drafty, thank you for feeling my pain when she e-mails me. This was the one I got today:

Hello Nicole, 

You probably don't remember the conversation we had, you sent me a nasty e-mail telling me about my breeding program. Im not sure if you realize this but someone has brought it to my attention that you are slandering my name and my program on fb. I now have a copy of what was all said and posted. if you dont believe me see below.

Mikolaj Falk It happens a lot out of ignorance - a lot of us know to check for things like 
HYPP and HERDA in Quarter Horses but we don't realize that a color could be a lurking 
doomsday. I just e-mailed her to tell her she should be more careful and basically got told 
off for assuming she "doesn't know what she's doing" and that she's perfectly aware of the 
risk and is fine with it. Though she also brags about having twins on her website which is 
highly fatal in horses and entirely preventable with a proper vet check, so I'm not 
surprised. No wonder people think we're the ******** of the horse breeding world.
February 11 at 5:55pm via mobile · Like · 1

Now I'm not sure if you realize this but this is SLANDER and we can go to court over this. So im am kindly advising you to remove your post from fb and mind your business or we will take further action.

you might find this interesting to read... Lethals White Gene - Page 1 and if you don't you might want to e-mail her as well as she has been breeding 10 times longer than myself.

Jenna


BTW, this was my "nasty email" to her originally:

I hope you realize that "Cowpie" and "Shady" are both frame overos and therefore have 25% chance of producing a lethal white overo foal which will have to be euthanized at birth. You should be more careful with the genetics you're working with. Just an FYI.

Yep. Just call me Mikolaj the cold hearted monster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*rolls eyes*


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Bwahaha...the old "or we will take farther action" routine...:rofl:

That ranks right up there with my favorite expressions of 10 year old boys...
"Get off my property"

...and 10 year old girls...
"You aren't the boss of me"


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Oh my god people are crazy I'm mean she is seriously like a child putting her hands over her ears blocking out the truth going lalalala I'm not listening!!!! I can't admit that I'm a horrible person and that "slander" would not hold up in court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

This is why there should be schooling and liscencing for commercial breeding programs this should be considered animal abuse and I'd report her to the better business bureau for have no warning of possible death of foals to buyers for frame to frame breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Totally agree Peppy. My favorite part is it's not even like she's breeding champions here. It's not like "Cowpie" and "Shady" are such PHENOMONAL examples of their breed that it *might* be worth the risk. Even better yet, she has like half a dozen OTHER stallions she could breed this mare to that likely don't carry frame. I love how she says "program" like she put intense thought and ambition into breeding a bunch of crappy foals who are ALL for sale now for like $500. We have so many of these "breeders" who provide NO real care for their horses, throw stallions in with groups of mares and then dump the babies for a few hundred bucks because you might actually make some money that way if you never call a vet, never feed anything but ditch hay, and run them in big pastures for summer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Haha "program" that would require thought, research, training, constant learning, and to actually care about her horses and what happens when people buy them. You should send her a link to this post and show her what people think of her "program" I'd like to see her "slander" charge hold up after you provide factual evidence from educated people and what we think of a backyard breeder like her. Two heterozygous horses with any gene gives a 25% chance to produce a homozygous inheritance of the dominant gene, 50% chance the horse will be herterozygous like its parents and 25% of the horse being homozygous recessive it's the plain mathematics of a simple punnet square. This of course being for every breeding not all breedings and this is why frame to frame is 25% lethal. There are plenty of safer ways to produce color I don't understand people's logic poor people who buy from her and god bless the mares and foals she owns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That website made my head hurt. Especially the twins "brag."
> 
> *Grammar, why hast thou abandoned us?! And thee, punctuation, thou charlatan!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thinkist thou owest thy a new keyboard.... :lol:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I intend to when/if she replies to my responses!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I take it you had more self control than I would have and didn't respond to her email with "You think you can sue me for slander over this? _Bring it._"


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Wow, i had done research on OLWS before when i was younger. And now that i have an overo mare, i really understand it. 
I like how it changed from just overo to tobiano carry it now and it a possible realated gene to albinoism. Whoever is doing this study really needs to take a few courses on equine genetics and colors. The study was done on only 700 horses, it didn't specify on what kind of horses, maybe they should go to a big name top of the line breeder and do studies and ask questions and look back on the color lineage. Then make an assessment. Just wow.... :?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

EB - I seriously think that "breeder" was just trying to justify breeding frame to frame with no real clue what the heck they were talking about.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Verona - ahahahaha of course not. My initial response was "*snorts* Slander my ***. Good luck." Then I responded twice more explaining first that it would be LIBEL since it was written and then to respond to the link she sent with *headdesk*. That's about as nature as I can be. I also called her an irresponsible ****wit the first go around. But then managed to not respond when she replied again. And that was WEEKS ago. Even my post on FB was beginning of February. It's like some idiot friend convined her she had a case. Ah well. Makes for amusement for my boring day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Verona - ahahahaha of course not. My initial response was "*snorts* Slander my ***. Good luck." Then I responded twice more explaining first that it would be LIBEL since it was written and then to respond to the link she sent with *headdesk*. That's about as mature as I can be. I also called her an irresponsible ****wit the first go around. But then managed to not respond when she replied again. And that was WEEKS ago. Even my post on FB was beginning of February. It's like some idiot friend convined her she had a case. Ah well. Makes for amusement for my boring day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Double post


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

MM I would also say to her to "bring it" because she is wrong and what you said, while it may seem negative to her, is not actually false. Slander and libel is not "telling the truth hurt my feelings/cost me money". It's when someone LIES about what happened that it is either. You haven't lied, and there are plenty of good sources including well regarded universities that support your accusations. She has two sources - her own website, and that of another nutjob. I would be giddy with excitement should you receive any sort of court papers - who doesn't love a sure win???


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

My sentiments exactly ^^^^ 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I know. I honestly and truly wish with all my might that she actually goes through with this just so I can publically humiliate her. I've gotten both equine and non-equine friends researching LWO and are HORRFIED anyone could be so ignorant and irresponsible. She still hasn't responded. I figure she either finally grew a brain or is actually trying to have me served - I PROMISE photos if I really do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

This is the sort of case that should be on Judge Judy. I would love to see her take the ignorant so-and-so down a notch or two...


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

> she has been breeding 10 times longer than myself


Haha, this made me laugh. Unless her "friend" has been breeding for hundreds of years, I would say based on that statement, she either has 5 or less years breeding experience or is so terribly ignorant she can't do math or figure out a simple Punnett's square. The logic of that website reminds me of an elderly smoker... "well, I've been smoking for 40 years and I haven't gotten cancer yet..."


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Do we really gotta go back to biology and whip out the Punnett's square? REALLY? Maybe, just maybe, if we showed that to them they would possibly understand. That LWOS website made me want to punch my computer. "They will either never throw lethal, or always throw lethal." What the hell kind of thinking is that? She even refutes HERSELF with her own personal experience!! 1 out 3 foals was lethal, so does that mean the mare forgot she's not supposed to throw lethal and tossed it in there? -headdesk-


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Never trust a color breeder.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Breeding for color isn't bad if there is research and education on what they are breeding for, plus breeding conformationally/genetically worthy horses. Not all color breeder are this irresponsible. But it really is a shame for these particular horses to have such an irresponsible and ignorant owner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Holy crow is that one twin is back at the knee!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I agree witb ponyboy for once. In general, the term itself "color breeder" is indicative of being a moron much like "backyard breeder". Yes there are SOME responsible ones but they are few and far between. I would label anyone who has a pasture of colorful horses that have done jack nothing a "color breeder" along with being a backyard breeder. A responsible breeder with a loudy colored stallion typically can still show accomplishments by both stallion and get and focuses on the loud color very last and results in color just being a happy byproduct of an already outstanding stallion. 

And just to clarify, I consider "backyard breeder" a term to describe someone who breeds low quality horses irresponsibly without any adequete veterinary attention. An individual who made an informed decision to breed their mare, purebred or not, did all their research and is willing to provide proper care is not a "backyard breeder" to me. 

Oh and FYI, I've never heard back from little miss know it all OR her imaginary lawyer, though she continues to pimp the 37 useless horses she has for sale on Kijiji because she's pregnant and somehow a new child is the deciding factor on why none of them have had a lick of training done with them. 

The sad thing is, a lot of them are decent looking horses who likely could have had productive careers and earned the right to use their testicles and ovaries and ultimately be selling for more then under $1000 a piece. *shakes head*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Well, I agree about "color" breeders, but for us Appy folks the color just comes with anything we breed...most of us don't breed specifically for color but have a colorful pasture - although the people that use junk stallions or mares just because they are homozyous fall into that category...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah I think the issue is I only view "color breeder" as a derogatory term because anyone breeding quality horses with color as either a happy byproduct or impossible to avoid circumstance isn't a "color breeder" nor "backyard breeder". I would only ever use the term color breeder to describe a useless twit who bred everything in sight just to produce color. You breed quality animals with purpose and form in mind. If you bred out a loudly patterned stud that wowed everyone with his color but could barely walk from how severely pigeon toed he was, you'd geld him the second you could because you would never sacrifice conformation for a pretty coat. Ergo, you are a well respected breeder and not a color breeder! 

I just stumbled across a Kijiji ad for a Warmblood cross weanling - bred a Warmblood to a Paint mare and the colt came out solid bay and as soon as I see that all I can think is "DUH! Obviously that didn't go as planned!" or else he wouldn't be for sale as soon as he was weaned!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha so I've never received a response from little Miss Sue My Pantz, however I DID weed out who was feeding her information on Facebook (another krazy kolor breeder, surprise surprise) AND when this individual attempted to start a little war with me over a recent FB post, a well respeted and well known horse woman got involved and informed me about how Miss Sue My Pantz likes to starve horses on top of not giving a darn over what genetic disease/disorder pops out. 

Is anyone surprised? It's always the ones that protest the loudest that live in the most fragile glass houses. Here's hoping she sells all her stock and does the horse world a favor by taking up a new hobby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Not unless she wants her lions to turn blue...


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