# Bay or Blue Roan?



## DieselPony

Can someone tell me what color my mare actually is?
I've always been told she is a blue roan, but I'm just not sure. Doesn't look like an actual black horse underneath the roaning. 
Pictures are one from middle of summer as a yearling, one from middle of winter(actually Christmas day, just one without snow), and one from middle of summer as a four year old.
Thanks.


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## myhorsesonador

yes she is blue roan. A very pritty one at that.


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## Frankiee

i also vote for blue roan  and very cute !


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## DieselPony

Thanks!

So she is black as a base color then? The brown hairs are just fading?


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## equus717

I also think she is a blue roan. Nice looking mare to by the way.


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## NdAppy

Brown roan IMO.


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## Chiilaa

Once again, as ever, I agree with ND. Brown roan. This explains why she looks like a black roan, but still has red on her nose. Very gorgeous


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## DieselPony

So I was right in thinking she isn't black enough to be a blue roan?

Just out of curiosity, is there a possibility she is a fading black? Or whatever else there is that modifies black? Or is roan the only modifier a horse can have?
And that would be why you don't see palomino roans?


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## NdAppy

Oh there _are_ palomino roans. It is usually just harder to tell the roan on their already lighten coats. There are quite a few modifiers that a horse can carry at once. 

As for fading black... she is brown. She is a brown roan. Not blue roan, not bay roan, but brown roan.


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## Chiilaa

You do see palomino roans, they are just harder to see since they are so light already 

As far as modifiers, I think the only ones they can't carry is related to the KIT gene. Roan and Tobiano are on the KIT gene and so you can't have a horse that is homozygous in one while it carries the other. I could be wrong but I think that is it.

I don't think she is fading black to be honest. While her mane is faded, that can happen with any dark colour. Fading doesn't usually occur on that part of the face in my experience.


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## NdAppy

Chiilaa said:


> ...
> As far as modifiers, I think the only ones they can't carry is related to the KIT gene. Roan and Tobiano are on the KIT gene and so you can't have a horse that is homozygous in one while it carries the other. I could be wrong but I think that is it.
> ...


On this, this is correct as far as I know. If a horse is both traditional roan and tobiano you will never have the horse homozygous for either roan or tobiano (all in the same horse that is).


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## DieselPony

Well, learn something new every day. So every color can have roaning? 

And I didn't really _think_ she was fading black, as the brown on her nose is there year round, doesn't lessen at all during winter. It was just more curiosity.


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## equiniphile

I see a classic blue roan!


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## Chiilaa

http://equine-color.info/gallery/v/white/roan/

This page has a few pics of different roans, however they only have the roan on 'normal' base colours.


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## Juna

Looks like a blue roan to me.


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## Chiilaa

It's the brown phenotype that is making her look blue roan. Blue roan is a black based roan. A brown horse can be very dark and look black over most of it's body, but the brown on the nose is a dead give-away. She is a brown based roan. It doesn't mean she is any less beautiful.


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## Chiilaa

Here is another brown based roan:










As you can see, blue roan in appearance, with red on the muzzle.


Here is a black based roan:










There is a clear difference.


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## Juna

This looks more like a brown roan to me. I would have said that the browning on the mare's nose on the top picture you posted, Chilla, was just sun bleaching. But I could be wrong. I guess I do see some brown flank hairs, too. btw, what breed of horse is that? Paso? Beautiful!


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## MacabreMikolaj

Juna said:


> This looks more like a brown roan to me. I would have said that the browning on the mare's nose on the top picture you posted, Chilla, was just sun bleaching. But I could be wrong. I guess I do see some brown flank hairs, too. btw, what breed of horse is that? Paso? Beautiful!
> 
> View attachment 61664


To me, that horse is blatantly bay roan. Brown is usually almost black with only the nose and possibly flank area being a shade of mahogany to indicate the horse isn't black, hence the body often IS still black and why you'll have a "blue roan" with a brown nose - because that horse would look almost black without the roaning anyway. Of course you can get slightly lighter browns, but they're still far closer to black then they usually are the rich mahogany shade of bay.


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## Chiilaa

That one is a bay roan  Sun bleaching doesn't tend to happen on the nose IME, and the OP has also said that the amount of red doesn't change with the seasons.

And yes, a Paso in my pic.


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## Chiilaa

Beat me MM


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## NdAppy

People wpuld refer to this horse as a bay roan, but IMO it's a brown roan. 









Brown _can_ be light as well. It is not just limited to blacker/darker horses with brown around the muzzle, etc.


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## MacabreMikolaj

How would you go about determining the difference between a bay and a brown then? I thought the very definitive black legs were indicative of bay, whereas brown would remain more or less the same uniform shade? I haven't really seen a lighter brown before, I would definitely say the horse you posted is bay roan, could you post some pics of lighter browns? I'm not well educated on brown and like to learn!


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## NdAppy

It's the muzzle that gives it away. How the color is around the muzzle and the nostrils. I will try and dig up some pictures of what I am talking about.


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## MacabreMikolaj

NdAppy said:


> It's the muzzle that gives it away. How the color is around the muzzle and the nostrils. I will try and dig up some pictures of what I am talking about.


Thaaaaaanks! We're having an argument at the barn over the color of a Trakehner, he's almost PITCH black except for a patch on his neck and an area on his body that are a lighter shade. We've also been arguing for awhile over whether Eve is bay or brown.


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## NdAppy

Brown. Totally brown in my mind.


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## MacabreMikolaj

NdAppy said:


> Brown. Totally brown in my mind.


Muahaha, I totally win. I told Shay-la she was brown and she just keeps kicking dirt and cursing at me to shut my piehole, she's bay.  :lol:


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## NdAppy

lol well technically you are both right. :rofl: Brown is a form of bay. 


Here are some quick examples (hopefully you can see what i am talking about. It's the clear delineation between the black nose and the super light color surrounding it, such as on the darker brown horses). As far as I know none of these horses are tested for brown, and most people wouldn't test. It's more just a gut feeling on my part I guess.

Here is a lighter brown (note the muzzle)-









I can’t tell on the dam in this one, but the foal is brown












It is soooo much easier to see brown on a lighter horse in a winter coat, same goes for some of the dark browns as well.


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## Haylee

100% Blue Roan! lol, Those are hard to come by! ^^


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## Quariesian

I'd have to agree, brown roan. such a beautiful shiny silvery look in the first picture, though.


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## smrobs

I also agree with brown roan. However, I am not sure that the AQHA recognizes that color so she would likely be registered as a blue roan.

Either way, she's stunning.


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## DarkRider

To me she looks blue roan a little sun bleached though. Ok now , I have much experience with this.I have a beautiful blue roan stallion...or so I thought. After breeding him now for 9 years.
I bred one outside mare who was a summer black. The foal that resulted was a bay roan....bay head , blue body , black legs , mane and tail. 

Now, My stallion has thrown many blue babies, bay roans , a few solid bays , jet blacks, duns, buckskins and one palomino. However when the guy sent the papers in on the foal the AQHA said there can be no horse born to that union of that color. So an investigation was launched and I was asked to send in pictures of my stallion. OK, he is a blue roan they said.....BUT a year later they demanded I send HIS papers in so they can change HIS color to bay roan on his papers , but with the markings of a blue roan. Now , you look at this horse he does not have a brown hair on his body! He is black and looks like polished steel. I did an independent genetic testing to find he was in fact Aa on the genetic level. Which would explain why he could throw so many colors. What bugs me is the way AQHA handled it, the horse HIMSELF IS BLUE ROAN. I think keeping HIM registered as a blue roan and adding to the side, Aa or carries the bay gene. But they would not. 

No matter, that does not change him for the horse he is nor the foals he puts on the ground. Just an inconvenience ! LOL

I would LOVE to post a picture of him here so you all can see what I am talking about .....how do you do it?


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## Chiilaa

DarkRider, why would you keep him as a blue roan when he is genetically a bay roan? Is it because it is a 'fancier' colour? 

A horse can't 'carry' the bay gene as a black base - bay (Aa) is dominant and displays on black. So he can't 'carry' it, he IS bay.


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## DarkRider

Chiilaa, great question! I paid $10,000 for this horse as a blue roan. OK, the color thing was a bonus he has proven himself as a stallion and is well known in our area. If you SAW the horse you will see what I am talking about. Bottom line....if he were a gelding he would keep his " original papered" color. The rules were changed in the AQHA rule book because of my horse concerning this. Cool huh! Many at the AQHA were shaking their heads too.

I have worked with other breeders on this that said they have NEVER seen a horse HIS color but still BE considered a "bay" roan so to say...OUTWARD APPEARANCE....so he IS a bay roan on a genetic level. Believe me I have been on top of this. Again , as I said above...the color does not change what he puts on the ground nor the horse he is. So it really is not a big deal....BTW that is HIM in my Avatar!


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## wyominggrandma

Here is my Blue Roan mare. Not a brown hair anywhere on her body. She gets a bit more white on her in winter, but thats it. Then it changes back to blue.


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## DarkRider

Might not be the best picture in the world of him but here he is.


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## DarkRider

Chiilaa, Here was some research I had done. Perhaps this may be use full to others here concerning black roans and genetics. Very interesting!


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## NdAppy

DarkRider, that is to small to read.


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## DarkRider

I KNOW! I am getting used to this place! LOL I waited too long and it would not let me fix it! Here it is!


Chiilaa, Here was some research I had done. Perhaps this may be use full to others here concerning black roans and genetics. Very interesting! 

Q: AA means no black or blue foals?

A: Correct


Q: aa means he is true blue right?

A: Correct Does that mean then he would be unable to produce bay roan at all even if bred with a bay mare? No, aa horses can produce bay-based colors if the mare they are bred to is either Aa or AA. But if an aa horse is bred to another aa horse (such as 2 blue roans, 2 blacks, a blue roan and black), then the foal can not be bay-based. I think this is what raised the flag with AQHA. They think your stallion is bay based (AA or Aa) because he threw a bay or bay roan foal from a mare that they think is black (aa). 


Q: Aa means he can throw both right? Why should the colors be questioned?*****

A: If he is Aa (bay roan or brown roan, but not blue roan) then they should not question whether his foals are bay, bay roan, blue roan, or black unless photos that are sent in with the registration make them think that the foal isn't the color that the owner thinks the foal is. If he is Aa (bay/brown roan), then he can sire blue roan and bay/brown roan from a wide variety of mare colors. 


Q: Another question is when researching a horses color history and one is able to see what is in his or her background, is it so far fetched to say some of those colors can surface , or doesn't it matter?


A: Some color genes can skip a generation...recessive genes like red can do this. For example, two black-legged horses bred together can produce a sorrel. And Agouti can surface visually...a sorrel bred to a black can produce a bay if the sorrel was Aa or AA for Agouti. Agouti doesn't show up visually on sorrels, as it only affects black-legged horses. 

But dominant genes can not skip a generation. So two black horses can not produce a roan, because the true roan gene is dominant. Cream causes buckskins and palominos, and is dominant. It can't skip a generation. But, many people don't recognize a "smoky black" horse, which is a black that carries cream. So they can be surprised when a smoky black has a buckskin foal. 

Dominant genes like Roan, gray, black (E, capital) can not skip a generation. Two sorrels can not have a black. So, it depends upon what gene you are talking about. 
Still, he sure looked true blue in the pictures if I am thinking of the correct stallion.

HOME: Grullo ( grulla ) quarter horses and blue roans at Cedar Ridge; reining, cutting, and roping


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## Chiilaa

The genetics are simple. Because all the genes involved in this case are dominant.

I get what you are saying. Phenotype wise, he is so dark that he has been mistaken as a blue roan all his life. However, phenotype is not the correct way to refer to a horse. Otherwise, all those silver bays would still be called flaxen chestnut.

And I respectfully disagree - his GENETIC colour DOES affect what he puts on the ground. If I were a mare owner that happened to have an EE aa mare that I wanted to breed to your boy, in the hope of getting a black or black roan foal, I would be mislead by him being called a blue roan when he isn't one. 

If you hadn't tested him, then I would not disagree. Phenotypically, he does look like a blue roan. But you have had him tested, and still calling him that regardless of the results is not something I would expect.

For once, I agree with the registering body. That kind of scares me


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## DarkRider

OK ,I think you once again missed my point. 

I DO NOT WISH TO HIDE THE FACT HE IS NOT TRUE BLUE.

I am merely creating an awareness , in case someone else runs into the same issue. Genetic testing in this way is rather new back when this happened, AQHA never questioned it either until THAT PARTICULAR UNION!!

I WOULD NEVER MISLEAD MY CUSTOMERS , AND NEVER WILL!

By my SAYING , "IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE HORSE HE IS OR WHAT HE PUTS ON THE GROUND" , 

....is ment by his wonderful disposition , his confirmation , great foot , bone, ect , ect. Many of his babies have gone on to be wonderful horses as far as a real working horses , roping and barrel horses. COLOR IS ONLY A BONUS! Do you REALLY think ALL people are out to mislead others?

In the end...I was not surprised and since I do not breed for color over all, I was not that worried , and neither was anyone who bred to him , because I informed them. I have always been honest with anyone I have bred outside to , and have had many repeat customers.

...and yes, it scares me too....how many are out there that have not had the type of union that would raise that red flag? 

Should my stallion have been a gelding , it never would have been an issue. I thought bringing this up would be an interesting subject, considering his outward appearance.


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## DarkRider

Since this has happened , I have taken a vested interest in genetics and have complied, turning my lemons into lemonade if you will.

I am also very picky about the mares I breed. One has to be.


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## Chiilaa

Oh I am sorry. I was under the impression you still had him registered as a blue roan.


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## DarkRider

Nope, changed a few years ago. Thanks for the interaction! Be well!


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## Reiner8

for sure a blue roan


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## CLaPorte432

Reiner8, please look at the dates before you post. Several threads you have posts on are months or YEARS old.


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## Chiilaa

CLaPorte432 said:


> Reiner8, please look at the dates before you post. Several threads you have posts on are months or YEARS old.


This.

Plus the OP's horse is clearly brown roan.


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## Critter sitter

Opinions Opinions LOL 
That is why we are all individuals We all have our Own Opinions 
Only way to know foe sure is to test. I see Blue But some are clearly Color Blind.  And yes I know it is OLD thread.


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## texasgal

Old thread, yes, but .02 of mine.

Take away the "roan" and that horse is BROWN. Add the roan and he's a BROWN ROAN.

Having said that, I think AQHA would register him as a blue roan, much the same way so many bay roans are "red roan" to AQHA.


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