# Interstiing Stallion Article



## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

Can't say I've met any of those bad boys or their immediate offspring. 

Slightly off topic, I would love to see the fall and rise of Dyna King (son of Dynaformer) made into a movie - willing to bet there wouldn't be a dry eye in the house.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I have known a few stallions like that in my life but many are fairly easy going. The thing some folks forget is that they are a stallion and one cannot be quite so relaxed around them. One must pay closer attention to what they are doing and what is going on around them. 

I remember one Saddlebred stallion that some rocket scientist put out with several mares for the spring for breeding. Just put them out together and forgot about them for the most part. Trying to bring in this Stallion with his "band of mares" proved a challenge for sure. People were literally hitting him with 2x4's and throwing brick size rocks at him to get him off of a person he attacked. It wasn't pretty. In that case however, it was the situation that prompted it. Once away from his mares for awhile, he settled down a bit. 
I also knew of a stallion that bit off a persons finger. Apparently that is more common then it seems.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I realize those stallions are valuable and sire some great race horses.
However one does not have to be a genie to know what happens to those who dont make it to the racetrack. Shalom


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

They are lovely looking... What an interesting article!

I've never met any of them, and have never dealt with any genuinely nasty stallions.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I am surprised that tabasco cat was missing from the list after all he did put the owner's son in a wheelchair. I think its interesting article.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

There are just plain old nasty stallions out there but how many of those man eating boys were made by how they are raised and handled from the beginning? My first stallion had both Ribot and Grey Sovereign up close and he was a piece of cake to be around.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I knew a QH stallion named Smart Lil (little?) Boots. He was nicer then the mares. He waas turned out with mares for most of the year. When it was time to take him away you just called him over with a halter and he went quietly. Didn't even need a stud chain. He was also unhanded for most of the year. This horse produced the nicest foals in conformation and temperament. Always a gentle man, never aggressive to humans. He even tolerated geldings/mules until they got to close to a mare (Some how all the horses got in the same paddock one day, idk how).
Im sorry but if you need a baseball bat to handle a horse he should not keep his 'Boys'. I don't care it this is the best performance horse is history, if hes trying to kill everyone ALL the time he should NOT be a stud.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Most of the studs I've had to deal with have all been extremely well mannered and never had ANY problems. There was one morgan stud who my boss leased and for about the first year she had him he was awful. Bit, kicked, would try to kill you if you turned your back. Luckily he never got any chunks out of me or took any appendages but I was always on my toes and there were a few near misses. 

Sadly we couldn't cut him or return him as the contract was for a year. He did, however, get put through boot camp and every little thing he did wrong put the fear of god into him. I remember at one point he tried to bite me and I actually bit him back and hung on with my teeth as we ran out of the barn together. After that year he was a perfect gentleman for anyone to handle (the owner actually sent us a thank you card for 'curing him' when she got him back....). 

IMO if a stud can't behave then he loses his man bits, no matter how good he or his bloodlines are.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Didn't read the article. What would be the point?
You looking at the TB track racing industry (and it is an industry) which in my personal opinion is made up of some of the most irresponsible "professional" breeders in the world. That's because it's an industry that has only one goal. To produce horses that can outrun the rest of their peers during the time period between the time they are about 18+ months old (all their birthdays are official 1 Jan of that year so many are not really "2 year olds") until they are about 36 months (give or take). Some that have reasonably good records might continue to run a couple more years if their bodies hold up (since their racing career ends before their body finishes developing....over 5 years for a stallion to complete it's physical development). Any big winners are put out to stud before then and losers become part of the roughly 5,000 horses that are dumped (OTTB's) from the industry every year.

In that kind of business what do you expect. It's not about making a good horse. It's about making a fast horse (lighter bones and other traits that help increase speed matter...who cares if they it creates an inferior horse or a nut case....as long as it wins).

Responsibly bred there are some wonderful TB out there, but you don't tend to find them coming from the racing industry which is where most of the TB come from. Hence the glut of OTTB's. You're more likely to find them being bred by someone for something like polo.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

If you look outside the TB racing industry you'll find a great many wonderful stallions.
Yes, they are different than geldings and with more of everything you get in mare.
Yes, they are hard wired to breed, but that's not usually a problem if you deal with it.
Yes, you have to stay a bit more in tune with a stallion when out on a joy ride, but I can say the same about some mares I've had.

I've known stallions that would come the gate, leaving the mares, so they could get attention from their owners. Ride them bareback across the field with just a hand full of mane. The horse most determined to do what I wanted and do it best was a stallion.

Stallions just get a bum rap from bad breeding because they are larger and stronger than mares, but there are mare just as nutty.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think there are some good TB racing stables out there who do try to do the best by the horses. The problem is that there are folks that are doing the opposite. I think you could make the same comments about the racing industry that you make about the halter industry, or the reining or dressage industry etc. They are all selecting horses for one specific trait (or set of traits if lucky) to the expense of all other traits. Which results in horses that are not fit or desired for anything outside that set of things. I think the thoroughbred industry does need to reassess its plan and goals for these horses. I think they do need to clean up their act with respect to drug use and seriously consider other issues like jockey weights (out dated and lead to very scary weight loss practices). That said, I think every industry has its characters. TBs get called on it because when the horses break down its in a big way and often in front of thousands of people (like eight bells on derby day). Which draws an uneducated non-equine public to call foul for about fifteen minutes, after which their attention goes elsewhere. So, no real change can be made but a great villain is created.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

rookie said:


> I think there are some good TB racing stables out there who do try to do the best by the horses. The problem is that there are folks that are doing the opposite. I think you could make the same comments about the racing industry that you make about the halter industry, or the reining or dressage industry etc. They are all selecting horses for one specific trait (or set of traits if lucky) to the expense of all other traits. Which results in horses that are not fit or desired for anything outside that set of things. I think the thoroughbred industry does need to reassess its plan and goals for these horses. I think they do need to clean up their act with respect to drug use and seriously consider other issues like jockey weights (out dated and lead to very scary weight loss practices). That said, I think every industry has its characters. TBs get called on it because when the horses break down its in a big way and often in front of thousands of people (like eight bells on derby day). Which draws an uneducated non-equine public to call foul for about fifteen minutes, after which their attention goes elsewhere. So, no real change can be made but a great villain is created.


You cannot be conscientious and truly caring about the horse and be in the TB racing industry. The industry doesn't not allow for it.
You MUST race the horse before it's body is developed enough to handle the stresses from hard running at the distances required. We'll just use one example. The legs. A horse's legs do not finish developing until 3.5 and sometime 4 years (that's real years..42-48 months). A horse's complete body doesn't finish developing (the vertebrate at the base of the neck are usually last) for 5 or more years (stallions always take longer for at every stage). The reason you see dramatic injuries (an almost always with their legs) is because their legs are being damaged in the process of getting them ready to race and then racing them.
Someone who "really" cared about their animal would have to do lighter training with a very slow progression. Not reaching the harder conditioning until 48 months of age. The horse wouldn't be really ready to win a race until it was over 4 years old. That removes the horse from being able to compete in some of the biggest races. Now in point of fact that horse is faster at 5 than it would be at 2. Once upon a time, a long, long, long time ago, horse races were much longer (TB racing). Horses might run in a couple of 4 mile long races during a day of racing. These were older horses that had been prepared over time. The breed was also much more solid (heavier bones, etc...) than today.
Today's industry is like it is so that the owners can make their money quickly on a successful horse and get rid of the loser before they waste more money on it.
Sure they cry and are sad with a winner or potential winner goes down. It's a lot of money gone. There wasn't a dry eye in house that owned Ruffian when she went town in a matched race against Foolish Pleasure (that years Derby winner). But the same stables that owns these winners don't bat an eye at dumping a losing horse on the market without a real care about what happens to them.

Doesn't matter how anyone paints the TB racing industry. To them the horse is a product of the industry to make money on as quickly as possible so that less money is wasted on it. If any of them really cared they would not be part of it, because it's NOT good for the horse.

While I'm the first to say that show breeding has virtually ruined some horse breeds with respect to what they once were and were originally bred for, I also no that there are far fewer show horses "dumped". People will keep the horse and enjoy it for pleasure riding even if it doesn't win. While the show industry and breeders catering to it have messed with the breeds (just like TB racing breeders) the people who compete in tend to few participants who unload the loser. You don't see 5,000 show horses dumbed on the market every year. If so we'd have OSTWH, OSASB, OSM, etc..... to go along with the OTTB :lol:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

What about reining quarter horses? These horses are competing in futurities by the age of 2. They are doing tight turns and sliding stops. Most of them end up unsound by the age of 5. Those horses do get placed in homes and often just as much heartache follows when an owner buys a "pleasure horse" that ends up to lame to ride at the age 7. Then there is navicular. 

I know a lot of money goes into thoroughbreds. There are a few farms in KY that give all foals on the ground plasma transfusions regardless of need or cost. I also know that the folks who handle these horses are two things: dam good horsemen and they don't regard them as pets. As a general rule, the horses are the play things of the wealthy as a general rule; however, that is not unique to the breed. 

They get more attention because most TB are better known by the general population than QH, walkers, fiords or even my beloved Standardbreds. I know that some ranches out west deal with "excesses horses" which is code for too old, to thin, to crazy, to lame to ride by turning them out on national forest land to starve. Others send them to slaughter. 

In addition, the folks at Stonestreet (Owners/breeders of Rachael Alexandra) work very closely with New Vocations to find their horses that don't make it at the track suitable alternatives if racing does not work out.

I do think something needs to change. I look at Standardbreds, who are started in harness at the same age but have a mandatory retirement age of 14. Many of them have successful careers as older horses. To retire to stud they have to race as a four year old and they have brought back heat races for the trotting triple crown. The standardbreds don't have the same issues that plague many thoroughbreds; however, they go to slaughter or the Amish just as often if not more that thoroughbreds. Yes, the USTA has the full circle program and various large stables retire and keep up care on any broodmare for life after age 15; however, public perception does not give them a home. If the racing industry and starting horses young is horrible why are their research papers that suggest that some work actually increases bone density?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

rookie said:


> What about reining quarter horses? These horses are competing in futurities by the age of 2. They are doing tight turns and sliding stops. Most of them end up unsound by the age of 5. Those horses do get placed in homes and often just as much heartache follows when an owner buys a "pleasure horse" that ends up to lame to ride at the age 7. Then there is navicular.
> 
> I know a lot of money goes into thoroughbreds. There are a few farms in KY that give all foals on the ground plasma transfusions regardless of need or cost. I also know that the folks who handle these horses are two things: dam good horsemen and they don't regard them as pets. As a general rule, the horses are the play things of the wealthy as a general rule; however, that is not unique to the breed.
> 
> ...


1. No one disputes that a lot of money is spent on these TB bred for racing. That's why they have to earn their keep so soon

2. No one disputes that other competitive equine sports can be damaging if not done with the horse in mine vs the competition in mind.

BUT. No other equine industry dumps, on average, 5,000 unwanted horses a year on the market. Only TB racing does that. They break down more horses and dump more horses than all the others combined.

Saying that someone spends a lot of money to do things to hopefully keep a horse from breaking down so they can subject it to more than it should be subjected to in preparation for racing it (and hoping it doesn't break down then) doesn't alter the fact that they are still just doing it in hopes of making money and if the horse is a loser, no matter what they spent earlier, it's gone like any other bad investment. That's NOT caring about the horse. That's trying to take care of an investment and hoping that it turns a profit. if it was caring about the horse then you wouldn't have this huge glut of OTTB's every single year.
Hey, we all have to eat. It you can get them to stop all the drugs we can put it on the table. Horse meat is actually very good and one of the two healthiest domestic red meats you can find. That will at least give these trashed horses a higher purpose than just a failed investment.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Arabians do not go to the track until they are truly 3 years of age and race longer than most TB's. Those that dont run fast enough or are retired sound find homes and careers as endurance mounts usually .
Horses are livestock and are a business for most large breeders. they are not viewed as pets. Most QHs raised on large ranches are treated as livestock.
Now I do cringe when I hear of a long yearling being trained and truly think TBs are rushed into training and the racetrack far too young. 
With the big important races at 3 years of age and millions in purse money and stud fees at stake I dont see any changes on in the near future.
I dont know if it is fair to say that if you support TB racing you are not an advocate for horses.
The TB industry has been a leader in equine research and in equine medical advancements.
IMO the TB industry is no more guilty of being cruel than any other major breed that demands young horses undergo advanced training at an early age to prove their worth as breeding animals. Shalom


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Arabians do not go to the track until they are truly 3 years of age and race longer than most TB's. Those that dont run fast enough or are retired sound find homes and careers as endurance mounts usually .
> Horses are livestock and are a business for most large breeders. they are not viewed as pets. Most QHs raised on large ranches are treated as livestock.
> Now I do cringe when I hear of a long yearling being trained and truly think TBs are rushed into training and the racetrack far too young.
> With the big important races at 3 years of age and millions in purse money and stud fees at stake I dont see any changes on in the near future.
> ...


I might agree EXCEPT that TB racing did not start out this way (ok, we're talking a VERY long time ago). It was once called the sport of kings for a reason. Only the nobility had the money to take a young horse, train it, condition it and then when it was older and at it's peak, race it. They raced mostly for bragging rights, since the only part of this that was a business was the few entrepreneurial breeders that hoped to breed a fast horse that they could sell to a nobleman who wanted to have bragging rights.

It wasn't until relatively recently (still before any of us were born) that it moved to becoming what it is today. When's the last time someone gathered at the races to watch horses run 4 mile long races? (why to you thing Arabian blood was used to create the TB anyway :lol:....endurance!) Almost any horse breed can be conditioned to run a mile or two. There are horses that can run faster than a TB. The TB was created for speed AND distance. Modern TB flat track racing does little to show what the breed was originally bred for or what it's potential could be.

Money, money and more money (i.e. greed) is what ultimately created what we have today in the TB racing industry.
I'll agree that they could change it by backing up in history, but I also agree that it will never happen. Too much money.
As I said (and you basically did too) no other equine industry goes through as much horse flesh as the TB racing industry.
Horses are absolutely livestock. And are usually treated as such my people who've dealt with them in any kind of numbers. That being the case the TB racing industry should shop doing all the PR and damage control saying how much they try to do what right (because they don't) and just say that the horses are like cattle. A means of making money and if they don't we dump them. At least that would be honest :lol: (it would ruin the image they strive so hard to create and keep, but honest).
And then we wouldn't have to deal with people who believe all the hype they put out about how wonderful they are to the horses.
I've heard racing industry vet's dispute that the leg joints aren't ready at 2 years of age. Put me in mind of the tobacco industry Dr's who said that smoking wasn't harmful :lol:.
And if they were right...why are they changing the surface of some tracks. converting it to a more giving artificial surface to make it easier on the joints. There would be no need to do all this if what the preached for decades was true. They've known the trueth for a long time. Had to, since even my grandfather (who did not have a higher education) knew.
The sad thing is that the general public won't care until the next Ruffian or Barbarossa breakdown. They don't see all the broken down 4 year old OTTB's who leave damaged or broken down. Just not severely enough that they're put down.

I've known (and still know) people who've adopted some of these still young, but already broken down horses. It's sad to look at a horse that hasn't even reached it's prime, but will likely suffer to some degree from the effects of an abusive youth for the rest of it's life.
We didn't treat our cattle that way, and they were just headed for the market.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> Didn't read the article. What would be the point?
> You looking at the TB track racing industry (and it is an industry) which in my personal opinion is made up of some of the most irresponsible "professional" breeders in the world. That's because it's an industry that has only one goal. To produce horses that can outrun the rest of their peers during the time period between the time they are about 18+ months old (all their birthdays are official 1 Jan of that year so many are not really "2 year olds") until they are about 36 months (give or take). Some that have reasonably good records might continue to run a couple more years if their bodies hold up (since their racing career ends before their body finishes developing....over 5 years for a stallion to complete it's physical development). Any big winners are put out to stud before then and losers become part of the roughly 5,000 horses that are dumped (OTTB's) from the industry every year.
> 
> In that kind of business what do you expect. It's not about making a good horse. It's about making a fast horse (lighter bones and other traits that help increase speed matter...who cares if they it creates an inferior horse or a nut case....as long as it wins).
> ...


Amen. Well said. 

They aren't bred for their personality, they're bred to run. Plus they don't exactly get groundwork training. They get a saddle, made to run, and thrown back in a stall. 

Some of them I'm not exactly sure why they're considered the "baddest of the bad" since there's no description except for a picture. A lot of TBs rear on the lead (a lot of horses in general do it too) or are geared up with crazy leading bits etc. Those two I was like okeeeey....? I'm surprised War Admiral wasn't up there. From what I've read he was as nasty as his great-grandsire Hastings. Seabiscuits father Hard Tack (also a great-grandson) was a bit of a doozy too. Apparently his wonderful temperament liked to skip a few generations


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

So, the real question is this the result of "bad genes" or people tolerating bad behavior? I agree in large that the large scale breeding of thoroughbreds as is done on many farms can result in a conveyer like system. Some will say that "short cuts" in training are taken. So, are these stallions really bad boys or are they just manifesting trained behaviors? 

I worked with a guy who had spent years at the TB track. He said "Thoroughbreds are not really broke. Broke horses don't run that fast". I think that is true. Buyers who are not the same folks who are riding or training them see fight and bad behavior as "spirit" and thus this bad behavior is somewhat desired.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have 2 OTTB mares neither one knew anything but to run.
One I have owned for 13 years and you cannot walk behind her when she is eating. She will kick out with both back legs the entire time she is feeding. 
She does this whether anything is behind her or not.
She has killed barn cats but is gentle with her foals. 
I had a stall built to feed her in and she kicked it to pieces within 6 month
She was raced for 3 years and IMO her behavior stems from being stalled continually the entire time.
The other mare had no respect for humans.
Both mares had to be taught to lead stand tied and stand for the farrier.
Their daughters that I have retained or sold did not exhibit any bad behavior.
Being highstrung might have been passed on but not the kicking.
I know there are certain families of horses that are difficult to handle but if bad behavior is allowed to go unchecked it will IMO become dangerous.
Seabiscuit was difficult until he was purchased by the Howards. Kind treatment and consistent discipline made him a well behaved horse. Shalom


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

rookie said:


> So, the real question is this the result of "bad genes" or people tolerating bad behavior? I agree in large that the large scale breeding of thoroughbreds as is done on many farms can result in a conveyer like system. Some will say that "short cuts" in training are taken. So, are these stallions really bad boys or are they just manifesting trained behaviors?
> 
> I worked with a guy who had spent years at the TB track. He said "Thoroughbreds are not really broke. Broke horses don't run that fast". I think that is true. Buyers who are not the same folks who are riding or training them see fight and bad behavior as "spirit" and thus this bad behavior is somewhat desired.


When I say a "broken" OTTB I'm not taking about the training (or lack there of) :lol:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

These horses can run. They'd never reach the track if they couldn't. Its the racing (and getting them ready to race) that breaks them down. Screws up undeveloped joints, etc....
The majority of the OTTB's I've dealt with (never owned one) or been around were actually very nice animals. Granted, I've only been around less the 1% of the OTTB's that are out there (at 5,000 horses per year it's unlikely that anyone outside the industry is around more than 1% :lol

They can run, but their break down rate is terrible.
The result of breeding strictly for speed while giving up on having the more robust TB of centuries ago and pushing their bodies too hard before they've finished growing.

I've no doubt that many that have personalities issues are like that because of their environment and not their genetics, but how is anyone going to know. The industry doesn't care to weed out any that are nutty (and true nut cases are not really that common with horses...most are the result of environment) just as long as they can win the money (and make even more from breeding if they win big and don't breakdown too soon).

People who work in the TB racing industry use to amaze me. Since leaving VA I haven't been around any, but the BS they repeat and many believe would be comical except that many of them believe it and expect other people to.

A good example is that you have to feed these race horses grain. They need the energy (etc, etc,....). So they completely ignore the fact that they are harming the horse for sake of following an old habit with the same reasoning that many knew wasn't true over 100 years ago. Heaven forbid that they switch to any of the healthier things that can give just as much if not more energy. Look at Secretariat (a good example actually...on multiple areas). A BIG winner in racing. Syndicated and put out to stud after his big season. And dead at 19. Put down due to laminitis (which he probably could have been saved from, but that's a different issue) that, while no one will say it, was most likely the result of his diet (but they loved him and took great care of him????). He did live a rather "pampered" life, but basically was killed with kindness. But in industry insists that what they do isn't bad. If you want to kill the animal then kill it. Don't make it suffer so much first.

Don't get me wrong. I love a good race, but with horses that are 5 years and older (based on the date they were born). I can get just as worked up watching some young people on a mixed bag of horse (QH, Arabian, TWH, etc...) running for all their worth down a 1/2 mile of dirt road as I would watching the Derby. Probably more worked up, because it's more fun. No money, horses are usually between 8 - 15, although I've seen 6 - 18 at times, and it's all for bragging rights until the next race. I've even watched (and done) races against a pickup truck (1/4 mile and the horses often win....takes the truck longer to get traction on the dirt road :lol: and reach the speed). Racing is great when it's done responsibly.


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## MarchingOn (Nov 3, 2013)

okay all equestrian based sports have there bad points, the one that always comes to my mind is what goes on at SOME Tennessee Walking Horse barns. There are good and bad sides to every equestrian sport. That is not why I posted this article. I posted this article because I thought it was fascinating. Makes me wonder if there is a list of mares out there...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Inga said:


> I remember one Saddlebred stallion that some rocket scientist put out with several mares for the spring for breeding. Just put them out together and forgot about them for the most part. Trying to bring in this Stallion with his "band of mares" proved a challenge for sure. People were literally hitting him with 2x4's and throwing brick size rocks at him to get him off of a person he attacked. It wasn't pretty. In that case however, it was the situation that prompted it. Once away from his mares for awhile, he settled down a bit.


Putting a stud out with mares is common with many breeders, at least with Quarter Horses. When we bought my Fox Trotter mare she was turned out with a bunch of other mares and a QH stud at pasture and he was fine. We put her on a trailer and separated her from her foal and there was a good deal of ruckus and the stud came over to see what was happening but he never threatened anyone.

I have a friend who buys her purebred QH's from a farm that routinely puts the stud out with the mares for pasture breeding. Never heard of the stud attacking anyone. So I don't think pasture breeding is a bad idea. It apparently just didn't work well for the Saddlebred stallion in question.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

One rule I have whenever a stallion is pastured with the mares is to catch him first.
His instinct tells him to keep the mare with the herd and if you remove the mare without restraining the stallion I have seen them become aggressive or try and steal the mare back. 
My stallions are manageable and can be handled with a simple rope halter even around mares in heat.
When Sam escaped his pen and was herding a few of my mares it took me 30 minutes to catch one of the mares. Sam was too elusive and kept herding the mares away from me. I caught the lead mare and the rest followed me to the barn but Sam kept trying to steal her from me. i had a lunge whip with me and that is the only thing that kept him at a safe distance.
Sam was a successful race horse a son of the great Samtyr. His demeanor is almost like that of the two OTTB mares that I own.
All of them pin their ears back when being saddled and threaten to kick at the same time.
Once in the saddle they do seem to enjoy being ridden but all still want to run and fight for their heads when heading for home.
Sam hasnt raced in 12 years and he will be 20 soon. Chisos a grandaughter of both Alydar and Secretariat are the same age and she has not raced in 15 years. Shalom


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

dbarabians said:


> One rule I have whenever a stallion is pastured with the mares is to catch him first.
> His instinct tells him to keep the mare with the herd and if you remove the mare without restraining the stallion I have seen them become aggressive or try and steal the mare back.
> My stallions are manageable and can be handled with a simple rope halter even around mares in heat.
> When Sam escaped his pen and was herding a few of my mares it took me 30 minutes to catch one of the mares. Sam was too elusive and kept herding the mares away from me. I caught the lead mare and the rest followed me to the barn but Sam kept trying to steal her from me. i had a lunge whip with me and that is the only thing that kept him at a safe distance.
> ...


Interesting information! I didn't know pastured stallions tended to be aggressive when they are in with mares. I've really only had that one experience and the horse trotted over to see what was going on but didn't do anything. That was my gelding's daddy. I was naive enough to not know the mare I bought would be pregnant when she was kept out with a stud all summer! So I'm learning. :lol:

_Once in the saddle they do seem to enjoy being ridden but all still want to run and fight for their heads when heading for home.

_Sounds like my Fox Trotter mare. And she has no excuse like being an ex-race horse. :lol:​


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Its--If horses are anything like people, genetics and environment are BOTH influential in personality and behaviors.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> They can run, but their break down rate is terrible.
> The result of breeding strictly for speed while giving up on having the more robust TB of centuries ago and pushing their bodies too hard before they've finished growing.


 although breeding for speed instead of soundness is undoubtedly a factor, I think running them so young has more to do with it than anything else. There is a gelding boarding at the farm right now, race horse owners, who is two, and 17hh. he is decently built, but very upright through his back legs. He became known as a bit of a nightmare for the jockeys, because he would buck and stop randomly. turns out he has a groin pull that was undiagnosed, swelling and the start of major problems in both hind fetlocks, the start of a bow in a front leg, and he is just tired. And barely two. Did his large size and upright legs CAUSE the problems? no, but only the most well built horses can run at two and remain sound, the conformation issues contributed to the problem, but if he was started at 3 or 4, brought along lightly, he could have been a nice jumper or low level dressage prospect, and likely not had any soundness issues at all.

Of the 15 I have seen come off the track this year, only one had a bad attitude, and only one had what I would mark as notably bad or severely light boned conformation. The rest have average-fantastic conformation, one has bone like a warmblood, and generally they are incredible horses. Not one is a bucker, bolter or rearer, they have all be really easy to work with and retrain. In fact, 7 in the last year came off with only minor fine tuning needed. Hop on them after a month off, w/t/c stop, turn, back, trails, no problem, fresh off the track

the best stallion I ever knew was a thoroughbred, could ride him in a halter, with mares in heat, and he didn't even bat an eyelash, after a year off.

as for those who say the thoroughbred industry is evil for the volume of horses discarded, blow the reining/halter/ even western pleasure industries up to the same size and see how many are thrown away. you would have just as many, or perhaps more, as most halter horses are not only unsound very young, but also unsuitable for anything other than standing still, and even their cross bred off spring are often so upright and tiny footed as to be useless as saddle or driving horses.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I knew a daughter of devil his due. crazy athletic, very dominant and opinionated, the epitome of a hot, reactive thoroughbred. My friend ended up with her after someone who owned her(and was way over horsed) bent over behind her to pick something up and got kicked in the face with a shod hoof. Required quite a lot of surgery. My friend however, loved her, and greatly enjoyed riding her for years before she was put down. She always was a lot of horse. 

I now work with her son, a grandson of devil his due, Belongs to the same friend who owned his dam. Awesome horse. He has done fairly well on the track, and is a spectacular saddle horse. Very athletic and bossy, but a great horse, and gorgeous.

If devil his due was anything like his daughter, he would have been a handful.


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