# Unbalanced at the canter (me)



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I rode Teddy in the round pen today. The good news: he picked up the correct lead going left almost every time, and and least at the beginning he was really relaxed about it.

Then I fell off.

See, I've been told repeatedly not to lean in in turns (like you would with a motorcycle for instance) because it throws the horse off balance. My instinct is to lean in. So I tried to lean out a little, thinking that since I was already leaning in, if I went out a little I would be in the middle. I was wrong. I was leaning out, I got unbalanced, and I fell off. 

I don't want to imbalance my horse to the middle, but I also really don't want to keep falling off (the novelty has worn off, I gotta say). Any thoughts about how I can stay in the middle? I'm OK in arenas because it's a small amount of turning, then I guess I must be righting myself on the straight parts.

It's a 60-foot round pen.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I hope you don’t take offense, but how long have you been riding for?

I only ask because your experience will influence how people answer this particular question.

If you’ve only been riding regularly for a year or two, this fall is understandable because your body is still forming the spinal neural pathways and muscles needed to keep you balanced. In this case, it’s just takes more practice. Ask for lunge lessons and hold onto a neck strap, your horse’s mane or even the saddle. Do a lot of sitting trot, without stirrups if you can. Bareback, if you can and your horse is suitable for it. There isn’t much more you can do, your body just needs time in the saddle.

Also, if you are a new rider it is more than likely that you are inadvertently causing the issues with the lead - we’ve all been there. If you aren’t causing it, it is unlikely that you will be able to fix it on your own but it wouldn’t hurt to keep trying. It helps to always ask for canter in a corner or on a circle until you get more experienced.

I personally would continue to lean slightly into corners if I needed to for the time being and revisit (thoroughly) at a later stage. No need to fall off all the time. Most people on here will disagree with me because it might form a bad habit, but my personal philosophy is safely first - education later. Btw, leaning into corners isn’t incorrect for all riding disciplines but I don’t think we should restart that particular argument all over again (I don’t lean, for what it’s worth).

However, if you are an established rider, I have nothing. This type of fall doesn’t really happen once your body learns to follow the horse. Maybe a medical issue with balance or something neurological? Recent change in weight distribution?


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Learning to keep your balance might be easier if you begin to practice at a slower gait where balance may be less critical. Think of how you would stay balanced if you were sitting on a stool attached to a platform that was being rocked by waves. Release all unnecessary tension in your muscles so they are free to respond to changes in the stool so your body can remain balanced over your feet. This same idea should apply when sitting in a saddle attached to a horse that is changing its balance.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

It might be the horse. Do you have opportunities to canter on different horses? Sonny was prone to leaning in on a turn, the greater the turn/smaller the circle, the more he would lean. If you have a tendency to lean in AND the horse is also leaning in, that would certainly increase the chances of falling off, I'd think. On the other hand, if the horse is leaning in but you are trying to lean out to compensate for your tendency to lean in, I think that would also make you at greater risk of falling off. 

I'm curious....did you fall off on the rail side or the inside? 

I'm thinking about pictures of barrel racers...those horses reallllly lean to the inside, but the riders don't,,,seems like they look upright/straigh. Not sure how that relates to your problem, but seems like there's an answer/idea there somewhere to help u. 

Anyhow, if it were me, I think I'd try on a couple of other horses and see if you still have that issue. If not, then Teddy needs help learning not to lean so much. I don't know what those steps or techniques would be, but probably others on here will know.

Novelty worn off, indeed. I hope you're wearing a helmet in the meantime! when I read that you were leaning to the outside and fell off, I hoped to goodness that you didn't hit the rail !! 

Stay safe! 
Fay


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

It's good not to want to lean, but if your horse is leaning, unfortunately you have to lean a bit with them to stay balanced, yourself. You just don't want to encourage the horse to lean *by* leaning, or lean more than the horse is, if that makes sense. But you do need to go with whatever they're doing.

Have a look at my profile picture, for instance. We're cantering around a corner. And... we're both leaning. But we're leaning the same amount. If you drew a straight line up from the horse's spine, mine's in line with it there. 

Until your horse is stronger and more balanced on that lead, there will be lean. And with most horses, there will always be SOME lean on a turn. You just don't want to go around like you're on a dirt bike. But that doesn't mean you need to throw yourself to the outside, either!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Katie used to motorbike corners **** and I was like "is mah knee gonna touch the ground?!" while she galloped like a drunk rhino in the arena (thoroughly enjoying herself may I add!). I would never have had the physical strength and skill to guide her much less "force" her to even out. It has taken work of better riders than me over two years to get her to a point she can nicely canter around now. A lot of hind strengthening exercises and her learning to not be so front heavy. I never thought of it as trying to counter balance by leaning to the outside but was instructed not to lean any further than needed - just like a passenger that over-leans on turns when riding a bike can be REALLY irritable as when you do straighten up you're lugging all their weight. At the very least stay neutral and in line with them (so I was told to initially do... as a first step). I did a fair bit of leaning in sitting trot as well... just working even at a walk, putting slightly more weight on the outside seat bone and seeing how she reacted was a good start. If I leaned whichever way she would walk under me to "catch" me so to speak and we'd go in spirals. Once I got "neutral" we were leaning but I wasn't adding extra unnecessarily if that makes sense. I don't have the vocab to better explain... I like threads like this. But whatever you think.. it's gonna take quite some time. Might be better if you can ride an even horse to know at least what you're aiming for. It's so easy riding something well schooled (lesson horse wise) now after all the above effort with a greenie ****.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm... No you have mirrors in your arena? If so, I have a movement that may help.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wouldn't worry too much. Round pens can make for small circles, which are harder to ride at a canter. 

I bet it was more just the pony dodging, or you leaning forward, out gripping up with your lower leg. Eyes on the ground would have given you better help. Brush yourself off, get on and maybe trot some circles, for today.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks ***EVERYONE***! Even if I don't call you out by name, thank you for responding. I have read through everything.

I have been riding not quite two years. But I ride a lot. I thought I had the muscles there, but I've only been seriously working on my canter for a few months.

I did fall off to the outside, but Teddy swerved inside when I did and I didn't hit the fence. I had two thoughts in quick succession as I was falling (after the first "I am going to fall off" thought): (1) am I going to hit the fence? (2) no I am not going to hit the fence. Don't worry, I ALWAYS wear a helmet. I've fallen off horses four times (always at the canter), twice landing on my hands and knees, and twice on my back, so I've never hit my head, but yes I always wear one. 

I rode the lesson pony last week and cantered her. I cantered in an arena with other people also cantering, for the first time ever, and it was easy! When she caught up with another lesson horse, I simply turned her in to a nice easy 20-meter circle then continued on. When she got too fast I half-halted her, and when she got to slow I clucked her on. No thoughts about falling off. So yes it might be Teddy. His left lead is really sticky, which is why we were riding in the round pen in the first place.

@boots we do as a matter of fact have an arena with a mirror.

@mslady254 it's interesting, I was thinking about barrel riders, also, before I fell off. I was thinking about how their horse always seems to be leaning in hard, but the barrel rider seems to be vertical relative to the ground, not even with the horse. So I was thinking that's how I should look, then I leaned out too far. So I guess maybe I need to stop thinking about barrel riders. Maybe the point is that they have been riding for years before they can do that, and like @Horsef suggested, I don't have the muscle yet.

I'm thinking that maybe I will continue to lunge Teddy at a canter in there, to work on his left lead, but not ride him again in there for a while, maybe a week or two. Then maybe trot and think about how the circle feels, and where my weight goes, and then see what I think about cantering. And make sure he feels happy about it also.

As a side note, I feel really bad for Teddy. He had a nice, easy canter the first time. Instructor pointed out how relaxed he was. Then I fell off. I got on again and cantered again, but this time he was super anxious, speedy, and choppy. I think he got worried because I fell off. Another reason go back to just lunging him in there, I think, rather than riding right away. I want to be sure he's happy about what he's doing.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

@ACinATX - Well... You might try this. 

Ride up to face the mirror. Check to see if you are straight up. Get straight up. Reach down and touch your left foot with your left hand. Quickly come back up to where you feel you are sitting straight. Check yourself in the mirror. Straighten up. Repeat on the right. When you come up, check yourself. Try it at a fast pace, after a bit, too.

Some people will even do the movement with their eyes closed only opening them once they think they are upright to check.

When you feel you are straight up, are you? Or do you see you are actually off to one side. 

Sometimes it helps to have someone watching from behind because they can be more objective. 

If you find you feel upright, when you are not quite, it's no reason to think there is something really wrong. We can actually reset our center of balance to be off a bit by how we sit in our favorite chair, or maybe because of a repetitive action we do at work.

A game, or you could call it an exercise, is having someone to you an 8" foam ball from different directions, different heights. That really gets the systems and muscles working together to keep you balanced. We do that with some adult competitive riders and they are surprised at what it takes.

Since I get there impression that you ride a lot, and are active otherwise in your life, I'm just wondering if something like this is impacting your balance.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Cantering in a 60 ft round pen is hard. I have been riding for decades and i try to get my babies out of the round pen as fast as possible me. Many Horses find the area tight, so scramble or get nervous, and often lean in as well or cheat. Honestly, the best way to get comfortable at the canter is to do it. A lot. Start in a long straight line (a long dirt trail (with a bit of an incline is the most comfortable) or a BIG circle on a well trained, QUIET, COMFORTABLE horse. Can’t repeat this enough. You want a nice slow- rolling canter to learn on. Some horses don’t have a super canter(choppy)- you learn to ride them later. 

Many people just plain don’t spend time at the canter and gallop and so never get comfortable.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You don't lean on corners, you stay balanced at all times even when the horse is bucking. I have pretty good balance, pretty rare if l fall but that is from close to 6 decades of riding. A great exercise to get your balance is no hands, no stirrups on the longe line. Also no stirrups whenever possible. About the only time I fall off now is in deep snow when the horse is bouncing around. I probably could stay on, but it's easier to just fall in the snow and soft, lol.

I found a couple of pictures of me riding the circle, or corner. The English one is at a trot, notice how I'm even with the horse? Same with the Western one at a lope, I am balanced on the horse even though he's going in a circle, I am not leaning I am balanced. Those are different horses I am riding, but the balance is the same


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

So it's OK to be not vertical with respect to the ground, but rather to be parallel to the horse?


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

ACinATX, thanks for the update. So you you know that it's not you. Its Teddy and/or Teddy and you together, OR, its the size of the round pen. When you are ready to canter on Teddy again, can you try it in the arena? That would allow you to narrow down the possibilities further. Even though a 60 ft RP is a nice size, it is harder on some horses than others to canter in one, and it may be difficult for Teddy. Sounds like you have a good plan, keep us updated. 

Stay safe, have fun!
Fay


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

ACinATX said:


> So it's OK to be not vertical with respect to the ground, but rather to be parallel to the horse?


It's the horse you have to be balanced with. Think about if you are jumping your horse, your balance is more forward to be balanced with the horse, the ground is nowhere to be seen, lol.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@mslady254 I have cantered him in the arena a fair amount, and while he sometimes gets speedy, we do fine. Except. He has problems with his left lead. That's why we were thinking to canter in the round pen -- basically almost force him to pick up that lead, with a rider on him. He did get the correct lead, which is good. So he CAN do it. The problem must be either that I'm not signalling correctly or (quite probably) I'm off balance, so in the arena, where it feels like he has more choice, he just picks up the right lead. Which is obviously his preferred lead.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Sometimes horses can be REALLY rough on their not-so-good leads, until they build more fitness on that side (or if they're sore for any reason). The horse I'm part boarding right now is a senior, and she is usually fine but damp weather will make her stiff. And her right lead is great, but when she's stiff, her left lead is HIDEOUS. I could easily ride her right lead without stirrups right now, but her left lead? No heckin' way.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

There are no fast rules about leaning in turns.

Whether and how much a horse leans depends on the radius of the turn, the speed, and how the horse is shaped bends its legs.

Whether a rider remains in lateral alignment with a horse or leans may depend on how much the horse itself leans. The basic idea is for the rider's center of gravity to remain over the horse's center of gravity. An exception to this occurs when centrifugal force becomes a factor.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ACinATX said:


> So it's OK to be not vertical with respect to the ground, but rather to be parallel to the horse?


This is a really good question. I just organized and attended a talk by a PhD student on how rider movements impact the horse's movements. While this specific question wasn't asked, she emphasized that horses must compensate when our weight isn't balanced. Think of carrying someone on your shoulders or piggy-back; if they shifted their weight backwards, you'd feel the need to take a step back or compensate by leaning forward. Sure, it's different for 4-legged critters compared to us 2-legged ones, but if your weight isn't aligned with their center of mass, then you are causing the horse to shift its weight to maintain balance. She explained it more in terms of vertical alignment (your core should be just slightly behind the girth according to her), but it would stand to reason that the same thing applies to lateral movement when you take into account centrifugal forces. 

So I guess the idea is that when you ride a motorcycle, it doesn't lean on its own so you have to lean in to CAUSE it to lean. A horse naturally leans (some more than others - my daughter's Arab leans a lot) so you have to stay within that center of mass (which according to our speaker, is roughly at the girth of the horse) to maintain stability. You don't anticipate the lean, but you move with it. That makes the most sense to me, but I'm here to learn, like you, and have only been back to riding regularly for a little over 4 years now. Others who are far more advanced than me can feel free to contradict me on this point. I will say that my balance has improved tremendously in the last year or so. Not sure why, but when I went back to do a few lessons with my daughter's coach recently, she noticed it right away. That was somewhat reassuring, I have to say!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Lunge line. No stirrups, no reins. Can start by holding the front of the saddle. If you find yourself slipping to the outside stretch your inside, you can reach your inside hand above your head, stretch the inside leg down. Seriously look into lunge line lessons. They help so much with so many things.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

ACinATX said:


> @mslady254 I have cantered him in the arena a fair amount, and while he sometimes gets speedy, we do fine. Except. He has problems with his left lead. That's why we were thinking to canter in the round pen -- basically almost force him to pick up that lead, with a rider on him. He did get the correct lead, which is good. So he CAN do it. The problem must be either that I'm not signalling correctly or (quite probably) I'm off balance, so in the arena, where it feels like he has more choice, he just picks up the right lead. Which is obviously his preferred lead.


Ahhhh, so the leaning is probably due to being in the round pen, and not because of you. 

Apologies if this has been addressed already, I didn't go back and read all the posts......can he pick up the left lead without a rider? ie in the pasture or being lounged? 

I'll defer to someone more experienced than me to give tips on how to help him pick up the left lead , if he doesn't do it readily even without a rider. If it's only with a rider, then my next question would be 'is it every rider, or with most riders......or (sorry) just with you. ?

Fay


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@mslady254 He picks up the left lead fine when being lunged. I've don't remember seeing him cantering around much in the pasture. He actually picked it up fine, even with me on him, in the round pen. I was the one who messed that up, with my ideas about leaning out.

One more idea I had was maybe to trot him in 20-meter circles in the arena, like do maybe 3-4 circles and then ask for the canter. I think he picks it up fine in the round pen because he sort of has to; maybe if we were just circling left in the arena he would just be thinking "I'm going left" and pick it up. He HAS picked it up for me in the arena, in the past, but I thinking back on them I can't figure out how those times were different from the times he didn't.

No one else has cantered Teddy for at least the last year and a half. But, I'm pretty sure that it's not him, it's me. I mean, yes maybe he's a little off-balance himself to the left, but having a floppy, bumpy, off-balance rider who shifts her weight strangely and then falls off unpredictably certainly isn't helping him. I suspect that a competent rider (once that rider had gained his trust) would be able to pick up his left lead pretty consistently.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

The closer you can time your cue to match the footfalls, the more natural it should be for him to pick up the asked for lead. For example, if you ask for left lead canter when he has just picked up the right hind, he would likely be able to strike off with the right hind into a left lead canter as he places it back down. Does that make sense? So, if you're posting the trot, and on the correct diagonal, going counter clockwise in the arena, you will be rising (up) when the right hind is on the ground, and sitting when it is lifted. The best tip I've been given is instead of up, down,up,down, up, down...........do up, down, down, and on the third 'down', cue for canter. gives you time to be sitting when cue-ing and causes the cue to be when the right hind is off the ground. Buck Brannaman, or was it Jack Brainard...? says that you can only influence the foot when is it in the air (just lifted or not yet down),,,or maybe it was Tom Dorrance. I don't have any tips on asking from walk other than if you can be aware when the right hind is lifted, which would be when your right hip drops. Hope that all makes sense, and that I didn't get my ups/downs mixed up...lol... I know that's a lot to have to think about along with everything else going on in your brain, the less you have to think about the actual canter cue (have practiced a lot) , the easier it will be to think about the footfalls. 

Good luck, hope this is helpful.
Fay


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

ummmm, wondering why you are floppy and bumpy at the canter....are you leaning forward at all , are your heels under, or almost under your shoulders ? are you in alignment of ears, shoulder, mid hip, back of heel? Ideally, your butt/seat shouldn't be bouncing up off the saddle at canter (or at sitting trot for that matter). Just trying to be helpful.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@mslady254 Thank you!!! When I was thinking over the problem recently, I remembered reading something like this. At the time, I was like, "Yup, I'm sure that makes sense but I can't understand it." But I started thinking about it again when I started having this problem, and from what I could remember it seemed like a really obvious solution.

I googled the heck out of it, and asked two instructors, and could not find someone to explain it to me.

This is exactly what I have been looking for! I will try this next time for sure!


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

ACinATX said:


> @mslady254 Thank you!!! When I was thinking over the problem recently, I remembered reading something like this. But I googled the heck out of it, and asked two instructors, and could not find someone to explain it to me.
> 
> This is exactly what I have been looking for! I will try this next time for sure!



Yay!! I look forward to hearing about your success!!
Fay


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm floppy and bumpy because I don't have a good following seat, IMO. So I've been trying to do more no-stirrups work, and really thinking about where my butt bones are.

FWIW I may be exaggerating a little about being floppy and bumpy -- both instructors I've ridden with lately say it's not as bad as I think it is, but they do acknowledge that it's a problem.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

ACinATX said:


> I'm floppy and bumpy because I don't have a good following seat, IMO. So I've been trying to do more no-stirrups work, and really thinking about where my butt bones are.
> 
> FWIW I may be exaggerating a little about being floppy and bumpy -- both instructors I've ridden with lately say it's not as bad as I think it is, but they do acknowledge that it's a problem.



You CAN'T have a good following seat if you don't have a good seat. ...as in what I said earlier about alignment. The first time I had an instructor get me to sit really 'straight', I felt like I was leaning back recliner style. She swore that I wasn't and I had to realize that I was leaning forward previously without even realizing it. It took a while for 'straight' to no longer feel like leaning too far back. 

Maybe try leaning back a bit, think about weighting your heels without pushing them down, and see if that helps you get into a 'following' seat. Be safe. Shoulder more 'back' will push your seat down, shoulders more forward will cause your seat to lift off the saddle and you'll be constantly fighting to try to have a following seat. 
(It will also help to sit a choppy trot without banging on the saddle)


Fay


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks! Yes, I definitely found today, sitting the trot on Teddy, that putting my shoulders back was better, pushed my seat down and resulted in less bumping. Teddy seemed to appreciate it as well. But like you said it felt weird to me, like I was actually leaning back. I'm sure I wasn't. So, based on what you said I probably am leaning forward too much, in general. I will ask my instructor at my next lesson.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

An update. I showed up ready to ride the small pony bareback (per my other thread) but it didn't end up working out that day.

Today I rode PLP (Perfect Lesson Pony). I decided (1) to forget about trying to sit the canter, and just sort of go into two-point, or what counts as two-point when I do it and (2) to not think about where my body was, to just ride.

So, I did pretty well. I actually rode a whole course of poles, some ground and some raised (which she jumped), with some pretty tight turns, in a canter. I didn't feel unbalanced one time (although my butt did hit her back on one of the jumps, which I feel bad about, but I don't think she HAD to jump those poles, they weren't THAT high, so that was sort of her choice). I was in control, with light steady contact and soft hands, steered her around everything with ease, and she did great. The whole thing was actually really easy. I was unable to get her to do a flying lead change, twice, in the same place each time, but it's her sticky side so I don't feel too bad about that. This was the first time I had EVER done any cantering besides just cantering around the edge of the arena or cantering out of a raised pole when Teddy got too excited.


So, I guess my takeaways are (1) to try to forget about sitting the canter right now, even though my Pony has a habit of rooting so I get nervous riding him in two-point, and (2) to stop thinking about whether I need to lean in or out or sideways or what, and just ride.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Update: I cantered Pony bareback today! My instructor had been working up to it by having me really focus on my legs, and in fact she had been pushing the last few lessons for me to try. My daughter was having a lesson in one arena, so I was riding him in the arena that has really deep sand (so it sort of slows the horses down, not to mention it's great to fall in, ask me how I know!) and I just decided to go for it. I cantered 5-10 strides then walked. Then I cantered another 10 strides or so and stopped.

I'm going to work up to this slowly, BUT I have to say that it felt great! For once I wasn't worried about what my body was supposed to be doing -- his movement under the bareback pad just sort of pushed me into the right rhythm, and I guess my legs and seat have improved to where they were just holding me in place while my body just naturally followed his movement.

I'm so stoked!

I'm still looking for a saddle for him, though.


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