# Saddles too far forward??...



## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

So on a thread a little while ago people told me my saddle was too far forward on the horse's shoulder. I was confused, and am now questioning how I have always been tacking up horses, as well as paying attention to other peoples' horses and how they tack up and now I am confused at just exactly HOW forward is TOO far forward. I understand that shoulder movement is important, and the saddle can restrict the movement if placed incorrectly. I found this video and thought the saddle looked WAY too far forward. It's hard to judge because I can't see the rest of the horse's body, but if you watch the shoulder you can clearly tell it's moving under the saddle. I may be pegging it wrong; what do you guys think? I'd love to learn more.

Also, a picture of the horse that people told me the saddle was too far forward on.

Video:


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

bumpedy bumppp


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*saddle placement in general*

I haven't watched the video yet but let me answer you question regarding the placement of saddles. I looked at your photo and it may be a bit too far forward, the photo is kind of dark so that it's hard to see where that horse's shoulder blade and its' back edge really are. In any case, in a Western saddle, the *conch* (which marks the front edge of the tree) should be just *about an inch behind the back edge of the shoulder blade* of the horse when it is standing square. The western saddles's skirt will extend actually over the shoulder area, and as such it must be loose enough (have enough "flare" outward from the body of the horse) so that the shoulder blade can move back and forth to a small degree UNDER the skirt. If the saddle is too tightly fitted at the shoulder it will disallow this freedom of movement. Or if it is too far forward the tree itself , where the actual weight of the rider is carried, will be on top of the shoulder and pinching it.

Does this make sense? Looking at that photo, I am wondering if that saddle isn't lacking in the kind of freedom for the shoulderblade that I talked about with "flare" in the front edge.
Or, it is a bit too far forward.

Now, to watch that video and if you can stand my yakking, I will make another post. . . .


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes, you are sooOO right! That saddle is way too far forward. It is totally resting right on top of that poor horse's shoulder blade. It is probably 3 to 4 inches too far forward. That horse is in so much discomfort. And then they throw all that crap on it; martingales, tiedown and such, put a rider on it who won't post to ease it's back and then have her mindlessly snap, snap at it's head to get a headset? Yikes!


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## NannonsWhiskey (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree with tinyliny from above. Looks too far forward to me. I know too many people who only look at the whithers and the cinch strap for placement of their saddles insted of where the tree lays on the horse.


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## Fifty (Jul 1, 2010)

I think it may be a bit too far forward, but not bad. Maybe back just a little!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Who has a picture of what a saddle should look like on a horse. I probably put my saddle too far forward too. I have seen the cinch on horses further back, like not near the elbows. I dont get it. When I put my saddle further back I feel like it isnt right. In fact, when she moves the saddle starts to scoot forward into the position I normally have it. I know when you put a saddle on you should start at the withers and pull it back until it settles in its spot. I honestly think saddle fitting is the hardest thing to have to fix. How old is the horse in the video? I just watched Julie Goodnight yesturday on head set and this was an arab she worked with. You have so much on that horse I cant tell what your riding in. Let me know how old the horse is and if you are just starting to train it.


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## ChevyPrincess (Aug 27, 2009)

That video is not of her horse, lol. Just a clip she found on Youtube. I never heard of saddle fitting until I cam on this forum, folks around her don't take that into mind. They just slap the saddles on and go, so naturally, I did that too.

I know that the saddle is supposed to clear the withers, the back (spine) and heard the saddle should actually put the moet pressure on the horse's sides. Also, It shouldn't restrict shoulder movement, by what was called flaring out? 

Can the saddle rest on the shoulders if you can fit your fingers in there to know it's not restricting movement? You guys just make it seem like the saddle needs to fit half way down the horses back or something, where, I have always thought it further up than that. 

This is a helpful video I came across:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

^^ That is one of the better videos on saddle fit that I've seen. Thanks.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I only every fit english saddles but even I can see that that saddle is half way up the poor horses neck.

Its amazing howmany riders put thier saddle too far forwards.
Putting a saddle back a few inches can free the horses shoulder, make it easier for the horse to lift his withers and free the horses neck so he can balance himself properly.

A properly fitting saddle is essential. A badly fitting saddle Will cause pain, bad behavior, rearing, bucking, evasions, muscle damage, nerve damage and in some severe cases can cause skeletal issues like kissing spines.

A saddle should be fitted to the HORSE primarily and then to the rider. That said a good rider should be able to ride in any saddle.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

NannonsWhiskey said:


> I agree with tinyliny from above. Looks too far forward to me. I know too many people who only look at the whithers and the cinch strap for placement of their saddles insted of where the tree lays on the horse.


The picture, or the video?

Tinyliny - thanks! Good advice. I could always run my hand underneath the front of the saddlepad and under the saddle (the skirt part on the shoulder) without it pinching, something I do before I ride to assure no debris is under there that I missed. I attached this picture because he is lifting his leg up; kind of help you guys see where his shoulder blade is moving. I didn't understand when people said it was too far forward... the next day I went out there and saddled him up and scooted it back "just for giggles" as someone said, and when I cinched him up, the girth was not in the groove of his belly behind his elbows. It looked like it fit him worse. He also jigged around like he was uncomfortable... Maybe I did something wrong? Here's another picture of him standing still... Please! Let me know the faults! I want him to be comfortable...


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

could it be that the saddle doesnt fit him properlyy rather then it not being in the right place?


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Oops! Forgot to add the pic!


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

faye said:


> could it be that the saddle doesnt fit him properlyy rather then it not being in the right place?


Assuming I have it in the right place, and not forward and hurting him, then it does fit him correctly


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Personaly I think your girth is also too far forward in that picture, if western is anything like english riding then there is the common misconception that the girth has to go just behind the elbow (I dont think even western saddles are supposed to be girthed up under the elbow, that will stop him putting his shoulder back and will pinch), in reality it needs to go about 6 inches further back then that.

This is me in an english saddle but it gives a good idea of where the girth groove realy is!


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

See that's weird... your horse doesn't have that distinct girth-groove right behind his front legs. But I see what you're saying. I tried to move the saddle back and the girth seemed to make him uncomfortable


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

mbender said:


> Who has a picture of what a saddle should look like on a horse. I probably put my saddle too far forward too. I have seen the cinch on horses further back, like not near the elbows. I dont get it. When I put my saddle further back I feel like it isnt right. In fact, when she moves the saddle starts to scoot forward into the position I normally have it. I know when you put a saddle on you should start at the withers and pull it back until it settles in its spot. I honestly think saddle fitting is the hardest thing to have to fix. How old is the horse in the video? I just watched Julie Goodnight yesturday on head set and this was an arab she worked with. You have so much on that horse I cant tell what your riding in. Let me know how old the horse is and if you are just starting to train it.


Yeah, that's not my horse. I wouldn't ride in shorts lol OUCH


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Doing a girth up just under the elbow like you do not only resricts shoulder movement and will pinch with his elow movement, but it will also put pressure on the nerve that runs along the equine equivalent of our sternum.
Anouther couple of photos of different horses:


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## ChevyPrincess (Aug 27, 2009)

The girth can go there on western saddles depending on the rigging. If you watched the video I posted, the woman says it depends where the saddle lines up and where the girth is rigged on the saddle (how far it front of the stirrups) It can be different lengths designed for different purposes.

With that saddle, it could be a bit farther back, so the cinch is straight and not at an angle, but there are some cases where it lines up by the elbow like that, but that's not always the case.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Its still going to block the horses elbow even if that is where it is supposed to go on that saddle.
Going to be uncomfortable for the horse.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

When I saddle, before I ride I stretch my horses front legs forward and this seems to move the girth back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The saddlel fitting video was great! She stresses that the point of the tree (bars) must be behind the back edge of the shoulder blade by about an inch. So, you need to be able to feel where that point is. It looks very different in English vs Western saddle because of the skirt of the western saddle.

1. put the saddle on padless (naked), and tap,tap it on the front , like the fork area, until it settles back onto the back where it will naturally go to. If the fit is good, the saddle will find a really solid fit. However, it can fit the back ok , find it's settling point but STILL be too tight at the shoulder. 
What's important is to not measure the amount of freedome (flare) at the front edge of the skirt until the saddle is settled into its' natural position; tap, tap back and at least 1" behind the shoulder.

2 then test the shoulder freedom. Where the girth lies is last.
Alot of western saddles have the girth in the 7/8th position, which is not quite directly under the point of the tree (the concho). This type of rigging is meant to function best with the use of a rear (flank) cinch, and not so loose that it is virtually doing nothing

Now, in looking at the picture of the black horse, if the saddle is too far forward, it isn't by much. However, whether or not there is room for the shoulder blade to pass under the skirt, only the owner can tell with her fingers.

There are, of course, other problems with saddle fit like bridging and rocking, but cannot be seen from a photo like that.
If the horse is going fine with the saddle like it WAS, and no evidence of soreness, no white hairs no soreness and no radical dry spots, then what's the fuss?


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> If the horse is going fine with the saddle like it WAS, and no evidence of soreness, no white hairs no soreness and no radical dry spots, then what's the fuss?


I'd like to know that, too. Everyone told me it was way too far forward and lectured me about saddle fit, even though the thread was about the horse's behavior. He was behaving dangerously and even though I told them I had two professional opinions about the saddle fit, they swore it was the saddle causing problems. He's never had soreness issues. That's why I started this thread, to see if what I was doing was wrong. Thanks for your insight!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

bad behavior is very often a good indicator of a sore back. 

My connemara was good as gold, but when his saddle wasnt perfect boy did you know all about it. Bucking, rearing and trying to turn himself inside out! My saddler said he had never seen a horse quite so sensitive about saddle fit. 

That said you dont need saddle sores or white hairs to show that a saddle isnt fitting properly, a lack of preformance or bad behavior is often the first sign.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am afraid I had lost the original info from the first post, sorry. I don't remember what the behavior issues were.
Besides, as I said, there can be other ways that a saddle is causing pain. Have you run your hand down the back, ala the way the lady did in that recently posted video?
It is tough to guage why horses are in pain, IF they are.
Is the horse's behavior issue apparent only when under saddle? Only when ridden by you (sorry)? Anything else that has changed such as farrier, feed, turnout, companion.?


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## SarahRicoh (Jun 23, 2010)

Should the girth be that far back with a treeless saddle do you think?


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

SarahRicoh said:


> Should the girth be that far back with a treeless saddle do you think?


What do you mean? Are you using a treeless? How far back?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Snookeys said:


> I'd like to know that, too. Everyone told me it was way too far forward and lectured me about saddle fit, even though the thread was about the horse's behavior. He was behaving dangerously and even though I told them I had two professional opinions about the saddle fit, they swore it was the saddle causing problems. He's never had soreness issues. That's why I started this thread, to see if what I was doing was wrong. Thanks for your insight!


If you would like to know, here is your answer. This is the picture you posted on your old thread. The saddle *IS* too far forward and appears to be a poor fit in this picture. This horse is gaited and therefore needs even more freedom of motion on the shoulder than say your average QH. 

As far as your *professionals* opinion on saddle fit, you claimed to have your vet look at your saddle. Not to be snarky but vets around here could care less about saddles and fit. My vet knows medicine, not tack. 

I am still of the opinion that this horse was behaving badly because of ingrained responses such as : I throw a fit, she gets off, I win. I also strongly believe that when he went to lift himself into a decent walking frame and his neck came up, those withers rubbed on your saddle. But since you have stated over and over again that you believe this not to be true and have started another thread about this...I will let it go. I just think you should take a closer look. I also thought that before you labeled your other thread a total fail because in the end, we all agreed that the saddle *could* be your major issue. You have since abandoned that thread and started over here...why not bring the pictures with you?


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

True, my vet and farrier are not professional saddle fitters, but neither are any of the people telling me about the saddle (that I know of). I would listen to someone who had a flesh-and-blood examination over people on the internet judging by photos. That doesn't mean I am going to totally disregard your opinions, because all you had were the photos which, I agree, aren't the best example of how the saddle fits. It does look like it's rubbing his withers, I get that. That's why I got better photos, to prove that his withers are at no risk. My only concern with what you guys said was the saddle being too far forward. I posted a new photo because I wanted everyone to be able to see his entire back, his entire frame, and judge based on better photographs. In the photo you posted, you can't even see his entire body, and it's a bad example of the fit in my opinion. When I posted it initially in the other thread, it was just to show everyone what the horse looked like, and it turned into something else.

Make sense?

No snark intended! ;]


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

On a slightly different, but related topic: 

Pull your saddle pad up into the gullet of your saddle rather than letting it rest on the withers. Having the pad rest directly on top of the withers is annoying to the horse, sort of like having tight clothing pinch your underarm.

Somewhere, at sometime, people were taught that the saddle is in the correct place if the girth or cinch falls directly behind the elbow. This is simply not true for most horses. Individual conformation and choulder movement have to be taken into account.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't know if this works as well for Western saddles, but what I always did to see where a saddle should go the first time is put it on without pads too high up, then stretch each front leg out far forward. The saddle will move into place on its own. if you put a girth on one side and hang it down, you now have a reference for where it should go from then on. The way I check this is by putting the saddle REALLY far forward, then sliding it back until it "sticks." It should be in the same spot.

Of course, this doesn't check fit whatsoever. This only tells you where to put that particular saddle.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

Snookeys said:


> True, my vet and farrier are not professional saddle fitters, but neither are any of the people telling me about the saddle (that I know of). I would listen to someone who had a flesh-and-blood examination over people on the internet judging by photos. That doesn't mean I am going to totally disregard your opinions, because all you had were the photos which, I agree, aren't the best example of how the saddle fits. It does look like it's rubbing his withers, I get that. That's why I got better photos, to prove that his withers are at no risk. My only concern with what you guys said was the saddle being too far forward. I posted a new photo because I wanted everyone to be able to see his entire back, his entire frame, and judge based on better photographs. In the photo you posted, you can't even see his entire body, and it's a bad example of the fit in my opinion. When I posted it initially in the other thread, it was just to show everyone what the horse looked like, and it turned into something else.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> No snark intended! ;]


The comments you are making show that you don't really care about stopping his behavior and think we are just blowing smoke up your bum about the saddle fit/placement. Cori knows what she is talking about as does pretty much ANY person with a gaited horse. Please look at the photos below. Both saddles are far enough back the horses can lift their heads without being pinched. Gaited horses carry themselves in a different way. While your "professionals" and other people might think the saddle placement is fine, they probably aren't taking into consideration that he's gaited. Your boy is already showing signs of being in pain. Why don't you listen to him?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Amarea - those saddles and girths look right even to someone who doesnt do western (only english) and doesnt know gaited horses. The placement gives plenty of room for the shoulder and elbow doesnt press on the nerves of the sternum and allows the horse to lift his withers (and I suppose for gaiteds its head). It is no different for english horses as you need them to lift and release thier withers in order for them to move correctl.


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