# Why are YOU breeding?



## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

You know this thread will be closed shortly. Train wreck written all over it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

mbender said:


> You know this thread will be closed shortly. Train wreck written all over it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


they can go ahead and close it. im just curious as to why people breed when theres horses out there needing homes.


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## FreeDestiny (Jul 3, 2011)

Maybe this thread could have been a discussion or sharing of opinions should you not have written it so harshly. Just think, you're really drilling YOUR opinion into others heads with this. Which is just as bad as the people who defend senseless breeding. This post wasn't necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

FreeDestiny said:


> Maybe this thread could have been a discussion or sharing of opinions should you not have written it so harshly. Just think, you're really drilling YOUR opinion into others heads with this. Which is just as bad as the people who defend senseless breeding. This post wasn't necessary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



then you if it wasn't necessary neither was your post on it just now. 

your right, i am boldy stating my opinion and sure, i am pushing it. 

and i didn't mean it to be harsh i'm just being blunt and honest and typing my thoughts without sugar coating them. if that means its offended somepeople i am sorry. Like i said every one is entitled to their opinions and their thoughts. those were mine.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

HannahFaith. I really do understand your reasons for posting as you did. There is obviously a whole lot more indisciminate and irresponsible breeding, than the horse world needs in this climate. However, you also need to know a few things about horses. 

It is confOrmation and not confirmation. Look it up on google to understand the difference. 

Secondly, Miniature Horses are not ponies. They are small horses.

Lizzie


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

FeatheredFeet said:


> HannahFaith. I really do understand your reasons for posting as you did. There is obviously a whole lot more indisciminate and irresponsible breeding, than the horse world needs in this climate. However, you also need to know a few things about horses.
> 
> It is confOrmation and not confirmation. Look it up on google to understand the difference.
> 
> ...



oh man, i missed it by one key. dang i bet you never make mistakes like that. 

Oh no really? i had noooo clue. i guess i shouldn't have called my 15.3 tb a pony either. he is after all a horse. *sigh*


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Seeing as you have appointed yourself judge, jury, and executioner, what are your qualifications to determine what is suitable to breed and what is not? Your profile states 15 years riding experience - which means nothing as far as breeding is concerned. You evidently worked at a TB barn for 5 years - again nothing to do with breeding, unless of course you helped with LC and births, which doesn't have anything to do with the science of breeding. Are you a breeder? Former breeder? A degree in A & P? I figure you must have some credentials to make such strong blanket statements...just curious what they are...


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## SMCLeenie (Mar 3, 2011)

HannahFaith, I think that FeatheredFeet was trying to help you by pointing those things out, I don't think she was trying to be rude and she certainly didn't warrant such a snippy response.
As to your original post, you are just begging for a fight. If you want to start a thread to discuss peoples reasons for breeding starting it out how you did is not the way to go about it.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Seeing as you have appointed yourself judge, jury, and executioner, what are your qualifications to determine what is suitable to breed and what is not? Your profile states 15 years riding experience - which means nothing as far as breeding is concerned. You evidently worked at a TB barn for 5 years - again nothing to do with breeding, unless of course you helped with LC and births, which doesn't have anything to do with the science of breeding. Are you a breeder? Former breeder? A degree in A & P? I figure you must have some credentials to make such strong blanket statements...just curious what they are...



you are completely right, i have no qualifications to breed, and no knowledge of it. which is why, i do not do it. 

in which statements do i need a degree for? honestly asking because i do not know.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

all i can see, is people jumping on me for stating my opinions and yet, i really havent gotten any answers to my question. 

why do people breed? i understand that yes, there could be accidents and their mares some how get pregnant or their stud gets loose and goes to their mare. cool that was an accident, thanks for taking responsibility for it... but why go out of your way to breed when there are perfectly good horses out there, pretty much for free....


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

and yes, i agree i should have worded it differently i forgot that some people don't appreciate bluntness. I'm sorry for offending every one that i did. i really do want to know though... its like.. backyard puppy breeders... theyre usually messed up puppies with tons of health issues... sure you get a few good ones here and there but i just dont understand WHY people feel the need to do so.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

After removing bunch of "popcorn" posts, just a friendly reminder to stay civil AND on topic. If you have something to say _*on this subject*_ - please, do so (whether you agree or disagree).


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## newbhj (Jul 31, 2011)

You won't get an answer to the question because nobody breeds their horse thinking that it's going to be a pointless horse that will go to slaughter/auction.
Nobody is going to come to this thread and say:
"I breed pointless horses because yadda yadda yadda."
If you want an answer, ask the question better.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Everyone has their own reasons. But no matter the answer people will do what they want whether we like it or not. It is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Like newbhj said, no one who breeds thinks, or is willing to admit, that they are breeding worthless animals. You can tell someone a hundred times that the animal should not be bred, but there is always another excuse to combat.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

This post reminded me of "should I breed her?" threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

HannahFaith said:


> If your mare or stud has amazing lines, temperament, skills, confirmation, yadda yadda , please go ahead breed your horses and give the world back a nice quality breed of horse. no more saddlebred thoroughbred crosses or miniature ponies with with donkies.


I do remember someone posting her grown baby on this forum (don't remember who was that though). The mare was grade, BUT with nice confo and disposition. The owner found a stud to compliment the mare. The outcome (bred for eventing and with the full intention of the owner to keep her) while being grade was absolutely lovely looking horse. So it's not so much about lines or show record, but about the owner being 1) responsible and 2) doing his/her homework and knowing what he/she is doing when it comes to breeding. With that being said it was more of an exception from what I could see.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I breed for one basic reason. I can not buy a prospect for the same price I can breed for.

I agree that breeding just to bred is a bad idea. I also think that people really need to think what they are doing and do all the research and make sure that what they are breeding is something that is better or at the very least as good as anything they can go out and buy for the same price or less most of the time. However there has always been and will always be a good market for well bred well conformed horses. Stopping breeding just to stop is a bad idea. The key is breeding quality not quantity.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Seriously why keep beating this same horse I am pretty sure folks with a brain get the message.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't believe in indiscriminately breeding horse whether they are grade or papered. I feel only proven horses that have shown they are exceptional at their discipline and have excellent conformation should be bred.
However, if everyone who bred held to those standards then none of my horses would have been born. That being said, obviously there is a market(although not a large one) for not so great mutt horses with less than flawless conformation since I own 2 and my sister has 4 .


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## morehandclaps (Aug 9, 2011)

IMO, like i said in another thread, a person needs to do their research before breeding a horse, whether grade or not. mutts can do just as well, if not better, than purebreds. i understand the prejudice against grade horses, i simply don't completely agree with it. 

anyway, if a person looks down both roads and sees if there are any horses for sale that are up to their criteria (a horse that is probably young/can be trained for what they want/the breed they want) and comes up with nothing, i don't see why they shouldn't breed their horse. again, conformation and such are important so they throw a good horse and not one that can't do anything other than bum around a farm. if all of that is true, then i see that it's fine, whether the horse being bred is grade or if the foal will be a mutt (grade or registered).

it's all up to being responsible, which doesn't always happen (in a lot of cases it doesn't), but i believe the only way to prevent irresponsible breeding is to *EDUCATE* those thinking about breeding. Tell them what's involved, show them the *FACTS* of breeding their horse and give them all the tools that they need to breed their horse. Be honest and show them exactly *WHY* the horse they have might not be good for breeding and tell them about *ALL* of their options, including going through the market to find a horse that's close to what they're looking for. i agree being blunt is sometimes necessary, but to be so blunt and in their face right away will do nothing but turn potential breeders off, make them shy away from doing research or asking questions and possibly breed irresponsibly. 

if a person does not listen to reason and refuses to see the facts about breeding, that is the time to be blunt. otherwise, try to be a* guiding hand *and show them to all the information they need. if we do that we can prevent unnecessary breeding, lead the person to buying a new horse, or allow them to breed a good horse safely. it may not stop pointless breeding of horses, but we can at least do something more than tell all of those thinking of breeding their horses that they're wrong. //rant over.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I do remember someone posting her grown baby on this forum (don't remember who was that though). The mare was grade, BUT with nice confo and disposition. The owner found a stud to compliment the mare. The outcome (bred for eventing and with the full intention of the owner to keep her) while being grade was absolutely lovely looking horse. So it's not so much about lines or show record, but about the owner being* 1) responsible and 2) doing his/her homework and knowing what he/she is doing when it comes to breeding. *With that being said it was more of an exception from what I could see.



See, i'm not saying your horse has to have perfect lines, i guess what i meant by that is well tempered parents, and if you know grandparents. I dont have a probly with mutt horses, i've loved many mutt horses. But dont breed mutt horses with bad confo, its just going to continue the vicious cycle of "bum" horses... 
If you want to breed, go for it. but like you said "* 1) responsible and 2) doing his/her homework and knowing what he/she is doing when it comes to breeding." *not these people that breed and then they start to ask questions. Im not pointing out just on here, but just people i've met or seen at barns through out my time in barns.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

flytobecat said:


> I don't believe in indiscriminately breeding horse whether they are grade or papered. I feel only proven horses that have shown they are exceptional at their discipline and have excellent conformation should be bred.
> However, if everyone who bred held to those standards then none of my horses would have been born. That being said, obviously there is a market(although not a large one) for not so great mutt horses with less than flawless conformation since I own 2 and my sister has 4 .



I'm not saying mutt horses are bad... im saying mutt horses that will never be sound, or are more likely to have soundness issues is just sad.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

morehandclaps said:


> IMO, like i said in another thread, a person needs to do their research before breeding a horse, whether grade or not. mutts can do just as well, if not better, than purebreds. i understand the prejudice against grade horses, i simply don't completely agree with it.
> 
> anyway, if a person looks down both roads and sees if there are any horses for sale that are up to their criteria (a horse that is probably young/can be trained for what they want/the breed they want) and comes up with nothing, i don't see why they shouldn't breed their horse. again, conformation and such are important so they throw a good horse and not one that can't do anything other than bum around a farm. if all of that is true, then i see that it's fine, whether the horse being bred is grade or if the foal will be a mutt (grade or registered).
> 
> ...



i agree with you. I suppose i should take lessons from every one on this thread and spent more time on wording my "speech" better. I forget that people are not all like me and hate when people wont speak their mind or opinions or beat around the bush. 

*sigh* time to take a speech class so i can rant without royal ****ing people off.


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## morehandclaps (Aug 9, 2011)

i'm not going to go into this anymore than what i'm saying next, because i don't want to end up in a fight of some sort.

my comments were not directed at you specifically. both sides, some people commenting about you, some you commenting on others have been hostile at the worst and antagonizing at the best. i was more responding to the question you posed. i was not trying to attack you or give you a lesson in the way you voice your opinions. on the other side, by you being so offended (if you are not offended, please tell me! i'm not trying to say you are, it's just what i'm perceiving from your response) by my post it's sort of telling me not to voice my opinion as well. 

it's wonderful that you agree with me, and i'm sorry if i've caused any offense or interpreted what you've posted wrongly. i'm simply trying to resolve this in the best way i know how. people have different ways of approaching things, and i appreciate that, i'm simply trying to bring another view into the discussion.

:]


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

morehandclaps said:


> i'm not going to go into this anymore than what i'm saying next, because i don't want to end up in a fight of some sort.
> 
> my comments were not directed at you specifically. both sides, some people commenting about you, some you commenting on others have been hostile at the worst and antagonizing at the best. i was more responding to the question you posed. i was not trying to attack you or give you a lesson in the way you voice your opinions. on the other side, by you being so offended (if you are not offended, please tell me! i'm not trying to say you are, it's just what i'm perceiving from your response) by my post it's sort of telling me not to voice my opinion as well.
> 
> ...



see, this is why i hate the internet... tones can not be heard or understood properly. . I am honestly in no way offended i genuinely respect what you just said in the previous post. and i'm realizing that i really should have worded my rant differently as it did seem to start fights. but the way i was raised, and the way i live is im blunt. im honest, and i tell it how it is. i forget sometimes that people can see that as rude or such. The way you worded what you said was brilliant. 

Its not that i have a problem with breeding, or mutts at all. I just hate when people have no idea what breeding requires or what comes with it. people think "get the mare pregnant baby pops out later! woo!" they dont think of all of the stuff that goes with breeding or the work that follows. 

As for mutts? I love them. if they are sound. if they have good conformation. not even that, if they are sound horses that can do what that person wants, cool. I worked for about 3 years (when i first started riding) with an OTTB with a broken knee and all he could do was walk trot canter. not even poles cause his leg wasn't healed properly due to lack of proper care. but i dont understand why people breed horses with problems, with a stud, to get a horse like their horse, but with no problems... its silly... idk... to each their own . and i just bit myself in the *** by posting this thread.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I bred my mare because I don't want to buy someone else's train wreck! She's an exceptional horse and I want her to be able to pass her genes on. When the foal hits the ground I KNOW how it is handled and raised. It won't know anything other than being a well behaved horse. The stallion I chose compliments my mare very well also.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Its ok Hanna, but like I said at the very beginning, its a train wreck. So many people out there are breeding for so many reasons. Whether its a good reason or not so good. But not one person here can control that with a rant. You will **** people off. 

No one here can judge another for the reasons they have to breed. We don't know each other and can't stop someone from breeding their "heart horse" because they want a "piece" of that horse to live on. We all know there is no guarantees. Genes can hide many faults even when its a proven horse. 

So my opinion is do what you think is right. But remember the consequences of your actions can result in a bad breeding. Its your own fault if the foal comes out completely wrong. And remember how many good animals out there really need a home. For all the expense put into breeding, you can probably use your money wiser on a foal or horse that is exactly what you've been looking for all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

How many threads are there on this topic? I mean seriously you open the breeding section and theres 10 why breed...dont breed you have to weed thru this "junk mail" to get to postings from good breeders.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> How many threads are there on this topic? I mean seriously you open the breeding section and theres 10 why breed...dont breed you have to weed thru this "junk mail" to get to postings from good breeders.


I think that is likely the nature of the beast. Everyone has an opinion and is an "expert", including those that have never bred, and novices that have bred a handful of foals. The water cooler draws all types.

But in a free exchange, everyone has the same right to express their opinion, regardless of how informed or uninformed that opinion may be. The difficulty in this venue is to try and figure out who is informed and knows what they are talking about and who is clueless but expressing their opinion anyway.

I sort of look at it this way...there are a lot of people out there that are NOT participating in horse forums that are breeding horses blindly. Even though there may be only a handful of experienced and responsible breeder responses buried in all that "junk mail" you refer to, that is still better than nothing, and the hope is that the baseline of breeding knowledge will gradually increase - in spite of the "junk mail", and we will all be better off for it...


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

mbender said:


> Its ok Hanna, but like I said at the very beginning, its a train wreck. So many people out there are breeding for so many reasons. Whether its a good reason or not so good. But not one person here can control that with a rant. You will **** people off.
> 
> No one here can judge another for the reasons they have to breed. We don't know each other and can't stop someone from breeding their "heart horse" because they want a "piece" of that horse to live on. We all know there is no guarantees. Genes can hide many faults even when its a proven horse.
> 
> ...


Its Hannah, same forwards and backwards. like in my name. 

I'm not trying to control anything, im not trying to change any one with my rant. and i completely agree with you 

"*So my opinion is do what you think is right. But remember the consequences of your actions can result in a bad breeding. Its your own fault if the foal comes out completely wrong. And remember how many good animals out there really need a home. For all the expense put into breeding, you can probably use your money wiser on a foal or horse that is exactly what you've been looking for all along."

*good thing we're on the same page.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_My Grandparents breed horses, and have for years. All papered, good quality stock. _

_They breed as I think they thoroughly enjoyed the aspect of raising them. Not to mention that then they are handled how they want them. Some were sold as yearlings, but others were kept and went on to race. Currently in their barn is a pair of half sisters, who are 12 and 11 (ish) who they bred, raised and raced, all them selves. I think to them, it gives them a sense of accomplishment. Of course, even with the years and years of experience they have, some of the horses haven't made it as good racing stock, but they go on to be buggy horses._


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

VelvetsAB said:


> _My Grandparents breed horses, and have for years. All papered, good quality stock. _
> 
> _They breed as I think they thoroughly enjoyed the aspect of raising them. Not to mention that then they are handled how they want them. Some were sold as yearlings, but others were kept and went on to race. Currently in their barn is a pair of half sisters, who are 12 and 11 (ish) who they bred, raised and raced, all them selves. I think to them, it gives them a sense of accomplishment. Of course, even with the years and years of experience they have, some of the horses haven't made it as good racing stock, but they go on to be buggy horses._



thank you =]


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

Just because I didn't want to read every single person respond to this, I'll just state what I think whether its been said or not.

Some people breed just to get a good horse of their own, which is all fine and dandy if they keep it.

I did that once, and ended up selling the colt for almost nothing even though his sire had great lines and his dam was grade because I couldn't handle it. (Have another foal coming but I'm attending Votech and I am in Equine Production, we are starting halter breaking here soon.)

Some people breed quality horses for a living, which is all well and fine if they aren't over running the population.

Then, there are the ones that end up with "accident" foals. Much like I'm dealing with. Though I bought the mare knowing fully well she could be bred, its still considered an accident because the vet didn't see it until it was about 5 months along. (Awesome vet, right?)

There are times when a stallion or mare gets out and hormones fly.

So I guess you can't really critize to many people for "breeding". The backyard breeders that just breed and sell grade horses that have horrible confirmation are the ones that deserve a good talking to.


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## DustyDiamond (Mar 18, 2010)

Ladybug2001 said:


> Just because I didn't want to read every single person respond to this, I'll just state what I think whether its been said or not.
> 
> Some people breed just to get a good horse of their own, which is all fine and dandy if they keep it.
> 
> ...



I agree

I don't know like pretty much anything about breeding but I know I wouldn't be one of the people to do it just because I want a cute little foal because there are so many complications and just things that can go wrong during the pregnancy, at birth, or even after and I'm not willing to risk the well-being of any mares or foals if I was to breed. I only see breeding as something that should be done if you have lots of knowledge and know exactly what you're going to do with the foal because it is a lot of work and breeding because you want a cute 'baby' but that's not a good reason for breeding but then again, that's just IMO.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HannahFaith said:


> I'm sure this has already been addressed but i want to know WHY you keep breeding pointless horses?


The birth of this thread is as pointless as the the birth of the foals you seem so intent are worthless.

With opinions and free exchange comes the responsibility to place those opinions in a way that becomes educational so that each difference of opinion can be respected and not judgmental.


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

Spyder said:


> The birth of this thread is as pointless as the the birth of the foals you seem so intent are worthless.
> 
> With opinions and free exchange comes the responsibility to place those opinions in a way that becomes educational so that each difference of opinion can be respected and not judgmental.


Good statement, Spyder. I believe the OP only created this so she could bash a few breeders.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

I think this whole forum needs to take a step back and really access the breeding question. People jump on any poster knife in hand who even mentions breeding. 
Not everyone wants to open their arms to a trainwreck of a foal someone else bred. Most people want a usable horse. And not everyone wants to pay the high dollars for a foal that's out of champion lines that's already on the ground. I look at weanlings with good barrel breeding, there priced high. Anywhere from 1,000 to even 3,000 or over, and im sure that goes with many disciplines. There's still a market for foals bred for a specific purpose and always will be. People will always be looking for the next great champion prospect.

The back yard breeders will never stop breeding, you can't fix it. You can cry and bash all you want most will never understand why their terribly ugly paint mare shouldn't be bred.

But everyone else shouldn't be punished for their mistakes, we shouldn't have to go buy their ugly nags so they don't end up in the slaughter house. I think if someone wants to breed, does all their research, is finding a stud to compliment their mare, and is breeding for a specific purpose. Not say crossing hhalter qh lines with barrel lines, because both sides will be turned away buy the other. Then let them get their foal, not everyone on the internet is the ignorant idiot everyone just assumes they are. This forum is going downhill fast with all this, people need to stop being so harsh. There's nicer forums out there.

Getting off my soap box now, that is just my 2 cents. Probably get flamed for it too, but oh well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

BarrelRacer86 said:


> I think this whole forum needs to take a step back and really access the breeding question. People jump on any poster knife in hand who even mentions breeding.
> Not everyone wants to open their arms to a trainwreck of a foal someone else bred. Most people want a usable horse. And not everyone wants to pay the high dollars for a foal that's out of champion lines that's already on the ground. I look at weanlings with good barrel breeding, there priced high. Anywhere from 1,000 to even 3,000 or over, and im sure that goes with many disciplines. There's still a market for foals bred for a specific purpose and always will be. People will always be looking for the next great champion prospect.
> 
> The back yard breeders will never stop breeding, you can't fix it. You can cry and bash all you want most will never understand why their terribly ugly paint mare shouldn't be bred.
> ...


Well said Girl!!

I have answered several "Why don't you adopt other horses" rants and my answer is this:

First- I have taken in rescues, and though I was lucky with my adoptees, I don't expect my luck to hold out..

Second, and MOST importantly- I have invested countless hours in training and untold thousands in money to make my Registered, Purebred Arabians, well trained, well-fed, well taken care of, and well mannered. Every unwanted horse I take in has the potential to:
deplete my resources with unforeseen medical bills..
deplete my resources with unforeseen training bills..
deplete my resources with unforeseen feed bills..
teach my horses dangerous behaviors
expose my horses to unknown communicable diseases
possibly never be socialized
Etc..
WHY... would a person risk their lifelong investment and resources for an unknown, potentially negative situation, instead of breeding what they have complete input and control over?? It makes little sense to take resources away from an existing known in favor of the unknown.
I, and others, are NOT responsible for people who are dumber than a bag of hammers or greedier than a ***** at a banker's convention.. we can NOT rescue everyone else's mistakes..
We can't take in every foal, homeless child, abused puppy, and bedraggled kitten..especially at our, and our horses, expense.
Reality check...


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

May I ask, honestly and without any desire to accuse anyone, how many of you who dislike all these "BYB"s are ACTUALLY bothered, angered and frustrated by backyard breeders, and how many of you are bothered because that is the general opinion on this forum and you want to agree with everyone else?


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

I personally don't mind someone who breeds their mare once for a project or to keep their bloodlines. The only thing that bothers me is when someone does it over and over just to gain money. Those horses end up being rescued and sent to a better home. 

So, I suppose a short answer would be yes and no.

Breed your mare for one foal that you will love and cherrish, I don't mind.

Throw a herd of broodmares into a herd with a stallion to leave them to starve while giving birth again and again just to sell their foals, then I get ****ed.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

pintophile said:


> May I ask, honestly and without any desire to accuse anyone, how many of you who dislike all these "BYB"s are ACTUALLY bothered, angered and frustrated by backyard breeders, and how many of you are bothered because that is the general opinion on this forum and you want to agree with everyone else?


I often disagree with popular opinion...LOL -- totally being humorous..  
But you may be on to something there- there is that whole follow the herd thing..

I think the real problem is big breeders who pump out dozens and hundreds to get one good one.. Therein lies the rub..


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't think the intention was to bash those folks that are breeding responsibly. Even if it was perhaps this can still evolve into a conversation about what constitutes responsible breeding (be it for show, personal, or whatever).


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It boils down to if you have to ask if your mare/stud is breeding quality on a forum there is a 99.9% chance that you should not be breeding regardless of whether or not the horse is breeding quality.

Big breeders are not the only problem. I see more small time breeders sending horse to auction knowing full well they will be bought by meat buyers 99% of the time than I do seeing the big breeders doing this. I also have seen/heard small time breeders proud of the fact they have produced OLWS foals and touting how many they have produced. 

If your horse has not proved itself in some way, shape or form (other than touting bloodlines, color, or something other such asinine thing) then they do not need to reproduce.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

flytobecat said:


> I don't think the intention was to bash those folks that are breeding responsibly. Even if it was perhaps this can still evolve into a conversation about what constitutes responsible breeding (be it for show, personal, or whatever).


That has the potential to be a very educational and insightful discussion Fly.. I think the major issue is that WHOMever begins a breeding thread is ASSumed to be irresponsible, never having entertained the myriad considerations that goes into breeding.. I have been the brunt of such self-righteous, narrow-minded arrogance and so many others have as well. It simply backfires every time.
NO person learns anything if they are attacked. 
Open, respectful, and two-way discussions are the only effective ways to introduce other ideas and increase awareness. I'd like to see more of that.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Only is a discussion if you don't ignore other posters and/or questions directed at you. :wink:

I stand behind what I previously posted and add to it in the fact that being "injured" in training is not an immediate pass to the breeding shed. 99% of the stallions out there need to be gelded and 99% of the mares out there do _not_ need to be bred.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The other issue I have to comment on is that even though an OP never asks for a breeding critique OR whether their horse SHOULD be bred... you can just hear the cowboys (or girls) thundering up, hooves and dust flying, to give their expert, unerring, very important opinion, which was never solicited..

It is always a good practice to converse with those who are addressing the original inquiry. Getting sidetracked just serves others' agendas.


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## morehandclaps (Aug 9, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> If your horse has not proved itself in some way, shape or form (other than touting bloodlines, color, or something other such asinine thing) then they do not need to reproduce.


The only problem I have with this is that not everyone is looking for a horse that WILL prove itself. I know many people who prefer horses that will only become companion horses or ones that they ride a few times a week at a w/t/c or on a trail "for fun". If those people were looking for such a horse and all there was were these wonderful, proven horses they probably wouldn't be able to get said horse as they wouldn't have the money to buy it. People who breed one or two horses either for themselves or for others because they believe their horses would throw a great personal horse, I say go for it. Of course, after proper education and thorough thinking through on the matter, and taking conformation and health issues into the picture.



*BUT*, If by proven you mean in all aspects including simply trail riding or a w/t/c for fun, then I completely get what you're saying. It takes training and a good horse to become quiet and good enough to consistently carry a rider around, even if it is strictly for leisure. :]


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It was over a decade & half ago I bred my mare. I did so because I wanted a horse to replace her as my showhorse. I selected a stallion of the best quality that I could find in my area (we had lots to choose from at the time, AI was rare). The resulting foal was not suitable for my needs, however I trained him as kid's horse & sold him as a 4yr old to a happy child. During this time I was still looking for a replacement showhorse & couldn't find one in my price range. I was offered a free breeding to a stallion I was riding & showing, I took the offer. The resulting filly was jaw dropping, however I really wasn't keen on another mare (no offense mare fans), but the stallion owner offered to trade any foal on her farm for the filly. I chose a breeding stock colt providing they foot the vet bill for gelding, they agreed. 12 years later, I still have him & show him & ride him & love him. She sold the filly before I had even weaned her to eager buyers. In today's market, and my energy level, I would chose an already born horse, At that time, even backyard breeders were making money, now it makes no sense.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

morehandclaps said:


> The only problem I have with this is that not everyone is looking for a horse that WILL prove itself. I know many people who prefer horses that will only become companion horses or ones that they ride a few times a week at a w/t/c or on a trail "for fun". If those people were looking for such a horse and all there was were these wonderful, proven horses they probably wouldn't be able to get said horse as they wouldn't have the money to buy it. People who breed one or two horses either for themselves or for others because they believe their horses would throw a great personal horse, I say go for it. Of course, after proper education and thorough thinking through on the matter, and taking conformation and health issues into the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> *BUT*, If by proven you mean in all aspects including simply trail riding or a w/t/c for fun, then I completely get what you're saying. It takes training and a good horse to become quiet and good enough to consistently carry a rider around, even if it is strictly for leisure. :]


I agree completely. If I wasn't planning AT SOME POINT to breed, I would not bother to show, and could care less about "proving" any of my horses. I am doing what's responsible for them and their future. Everyday mounts are priceless, and it seems they have little worth on forums.. Good thing most people feel otherwise.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

morehandclaps said:


> The only problem I have with this is that not everyone is looking for a horse that WILL prove itself. I know many people who prefer horses that will only become companion horses or ones that they ride a few times a week at a w/t/c or on a trail "for fun". If those people were looking for such a horse and all there was were these wonderful, proven horses they probably wouldn't be able to get said horse as they wouldn't have the money to buy it. People who breed one or two horses either for themselves or for others because they believe their horses would throw a great personal horse, I say go for it. Of course, after proper education and thorough thinking through on the matter, and taking conformation and health issues into the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> *BUT*, If by proven you mean in all aspects including simply trail riding or a w/t/c for fun, then I completely get what you're saying. It takes training and a good horse to become quiet and good enough to consistently carry a rider around, even if it is strictly for leisure. :]


I hear that argument a lot, but respectfully disagree. Even a well conformed, well bred stud with the show record to boot will throw mediocre offspring (the odds are simply better at getting a great quality foal out of him). The value of a foal will depend on how it looks when it hits the ground, but there are so many factors that will change that value over time (training, success or lack thereof in the show ring, overall age and abilty etc...). It's no different than what's become the accepted standard in buying a dog - go to a good breeder with good stock/health clearances/a performance record in _something_, and you'll still get your money's worth for a pet quality pup. IMO, a show record shows the breeder's interest in what their horses are capable of and improving the breed as a whole - not just pumping put babies.

In the end I don't see a demand for mediocre horses as a valid reason to breed mediocre horses.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Druydess said:


> I agree completely. If I wasn't planning AT SOME POINT to breed, I would not bother to show, and could care less about "proving" any of my horses. I am doing what's responsible for them and their future. Everyday mounts are priceless, and it seems they have little worth on forums.. Good thing most people feel otherwise.


Nice for ASSuming that.

Are my horses breed worthy? Not in the least. 

Do I plan on breeding them? Nope. I can buy what I want for cheaper than t would be to breed and I know this. 

Does this mean I love my horses any less? _*Hell no.*_

morehandclaps - if you use your horse often on trails, etc.(and I am talking more than randomly riding trails) and you do you research I have no problems with it. A hard trail horse has "proven" itself in that regard.

Breeding unknown lineage horses (grades/mutts/whatever) should not be done imo. There is no reason what so ever for breeding them regardless of what they have proven themselves. It's not worth it. More so since you don't know if they are/were breeding true or if it was a lucky thing they came out that nice. If it doesn't breed true/look like its breeding says it should, it should not be bred.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

I absolutely adore my new mare. She is intelligent, personable, and as I am now learning, has some really good Arab bloodlines. She is only 7 and I have to say that I have a really strong desire to conider breeding her in the not too distant future. The problem is I keep having these nagging thoughts of weather or not I should bring another horse into a world that already has more horses than good homes for those horses. Will the foal be good enough quality to be successfully placed if something happens to me? My mare was a product of a well meaning man who loved his mare and wanted her to have a foal. He became sick and died during her first year (see my thread meet Ebzeenah). Ebzeenah bounced around from home to home due to lack of time and or finances on the part of her owner(s). She has a forever home with me. I have no way of knowing if her foal would be as lucky if something were to happen to me. There is really no easy answer here.


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## RisingPhoenix (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh no, everyday mounts are not of little worth on forums. Most people on forums have them. The problem seems to be in the acceptable quality level of "everyday mounts". If by "everyday mount" you mean horses bred because they're a certain color or of some rare (for a reason) bloodline, then I guess it doesn't matter whether they are conformationally correct and have the ability to remain sound (and therefore usable) into their upper years. Personally, I would want an everyday mount produced from parents able to remain sound without training related injuries prior to their 6th year because I wouldn't want my horse having similar break downs. But that's just me. Difference in acceptable quality levels.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Ebzeenah said:


> I absolutely adore my new mare. She is intelligent, personable, and as I am now learning, has some really good Arab bloodlines. She is only 7 and I have to say that I have a really strong desire to conider breeding her in the not too distant future. The problem is I keep having these nagging thoughts of weather or not I should bring another horse into a world that already has more horses than good homes for those horses. Will the foal be good enough quality to be successfully placed if something happens to me? My mare was a product of a well meaning man who loved his mare and wanted her to have a foal. He became sick and died during her first year (see my thread meet Ebzeenah). Ebzeenah bounced around from home to home due to lack of time and or finances on the part of her owner(s). She has a forever home with me. I have no way of knowing if her foal would be as lucky if something were to happen to me. There is really no easy answer here.


Ebzeenah, you just have to do the best you can for her, do your research, and rely on truly experienced, trustworthy people. If you think of breeding, there'll always be small people with snide comments clamoring for attention. Ignore them and do what's right for you and your mare.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Nice for ASSuming that.
> 
> Are my horses breed worthy? Not in the least.
> 
> ...


Breeding is really a crap shoot. Despite careful planning, and impecable bloodlines, you really have no idea what you are going to get. That is why there are so darn many Thoroughbreds. The breeders crank out as many as they can in hope of having one that can make it to the triple crown. And they are being ridden and trained way too hard much too soon. No horse should have to undergo that kind of intense work at such a young age. Maybe it would be a better idea for them to work on the training and conditioning aspect to build winning race horses rather than the breeding numbers game. It would certainly be better for the horses.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes breeding is a crap shoot. Breeding for a type and breeding type to type you are more likely to get something that you expect rather then something random. Breeding grades is not worth it.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Ebzeenah said:


> Breeding is really a crap shoot. Despite careful planning, and impecable bloodlines, you really have no idea what you are going to get. That is why there are so darn many Thoroughbreds. The breeders crank out as many as they can in hope of having one that can make it to the triple crown. And they are being ridden and trained way too hard much too soon. No horse should have to undergo that kind of intense work at such a young age. Maybe it would be a better idea for them to work on the training and conditioning aspect to build winning race horses rather than the breeding numbers game. It would certainly be better for the horses.


And this is one of the major contributors of horse overpopulation..but is conveniently blamed on the "BYB." :-o

Bottom line: No one has the right to legislate who breeds what. Look at humans for God's sake- look at their ridiculous, petty behavior- who breeds THAT? .. However.. a little less self righteousness and some more tolerance might be helpful in horsepeople..


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Druydess said:


> And this is one of the major contributors of horse overpopulation..but is conveniently blamed on the "BYB." :-o
> 
> Bottom line: No one has the right to legislate who breeds what. Look at humans for God's sake- look at their ridiculous behavior- who breeds THAT? .. However.. a little less self righteousness and some more tolerance might be helpful in horsepeople..


Unfortunately, many other breeds/breeders do the same thing: over breeding to get the "one" that will make it at Scottsdale or whatever else. Then there are the horse trends: Fresians, Gypsy Vanner, etc. The backyard breeder is the one who breeds because it will be cute to have a foal, but they don't work with the cute foal and you end up with an untrained, hard to handle 1,000 lbs of horse flesh that probably doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of finding a good home and living a good life. The big breeders are responsible for the numbers, but the BYBs are responsible for the uncontrollable, dangerous horses that end up hurting people. 

And let's not forget the PMU foals. Don't even get me started on that one....


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Ebzeenah said:


> Unfortunately, many other breeds/breeders do the same thing: over breeding to get the "one" that will make it at Scottsdale or whatever else. Then there are the horse trends: Fresians, Gypsy Vanner, etc. The backyard breeder is the one who breeds because it will be cute to have a foal, but they don't work with the cute foal and you end up with an untrained, hard to handle 1,000 lbs of horse flesh that probably doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of finding a good home and living a good life. The big breeders are responsible for the numbers, but the BYBs are responsible for the uncontrollable, dangerous horses that end up hurting people.
> 
> And let's not forget the PMU foals. Don't even get me started on that one....


The PMU's are a disgusting result of corporate greed. Again- not something we have control over. Indiscriminate breeding is a different story. In my experience, more often than not, most "BYB's are more responsible than "THE Breeders." Many of those "unhandleable foals" come from big time breeders who throw them out in a field til they're 2 or 3.. All factions contribute to the problem. I don't see anyone taking on the big breeders though.. 
You can't teach integrity; you either have it- or you don't. Stupid is stupid whether it drives a Mercedes or a pick-up. 
Everyone has the potential to bring something to the table to improve the situation- but it helps if it's edible...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I thought this topic was on why YOU breed, not your speculations on reason why others breed or why they should or shouldn't. I hope to read more reasons from actual peops who have bred their horse & why.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

waresbear said:


> It was over a decade & half ago I bred my mare. I did so because I wanted a horse to replace her as my showhorse. I selected a stallion of the best quality that I could find in my area (we had lots to choose from at the time, AI was rare). The resulting foal was not suitable for my needs, however I trained him as kid's horse & sold him as a 4yr old to a happy child. During this time I was still looking for a replacement showhorse & couldn't find one in my price range. I was offered a free breeding to a stallion I was riding & showing, I took the offer. The resulting filly was jaw dropping, however I really wasn't keen on another mare (no offense mare fans), but the stallion owner offered to trade any foal on her farm for the filly. I chose a breeding stock colt providing they foot the vet bill for gelding, they agreed. 12 years later, I still have him & show him & ride him & love him. She sold the filly before I had even weaned her to eager buyers. In today's market, and my energy level, I would chose an already born horse, At that time, even backyard breeders were making money, now it makes no sense.



thank you =] for telling me WHY and not jumping on me, and for actually educating me. 

And also, thank you for being a responsible , educated breeder.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Actually, the OP started the thread with:

"I'm sure this has already been addressed but I want to know WHY you keep breeding pointless horses?"

I'd say that the reasons that I may or may not breed are intertwined with my opinions about the horse industry and indiscriminate breeding. I don't see how I could possibly express my thoughts about this without demonstrating how I formed my opinion.

But maybe I'm a PITA!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Druydess said:


> The PMU's are a disgusting result of corporate greed. Again- not something we have control over. Indiscriminate breeding is a different story. In my experience, more often than not, most "BYB's are more responsible than "THE Breeders." Many of those "unhandleable foals" come from big time breeders who throw them out in a field til they're 2 or 3.. All factions contribute to the problem. I don't see anyone taking on the big breeders though..
> You can't teach integrity; you either have it- or you don't. Stupid is stupid whether it drives a Mercedes or a pick-up.
> Everyone has the potential to bring something to the table to improve the situation- but it helps if it's edible...


Do you know anything about PMU farms, how they work and operate? They have made many changes. The whole practice is very strictly regulated now. Some fine horses have come from PMU farms. Some have gone to slaughter. Breeding is a crap shoot. For big business and small. 

By big breeders, racing for one is usually at the top of everyones list. Yet most of us still watch the triple crown races absolutely enthralled by racing. Never mind that racing TB's are being packed on to a trailer as we speak. 

Big name breeders of stock horses have culls too. The good breeders match a good mare on a good stallion hoping for a GREAT foal. I would estimate that even under those circumstances, odds aren't always in their favor. 

Back yard breeders, in my estimation, must have a screw loose. Financially, hobby breeders make absolutely no sense. You are putting your mare (that you probably love and adore) at risk...scratch that...you are PAYING to put your mare at risk. Any number of problems can happen to ANY pregnancy. All to have one little baby. While not the same exact blood, the same baby that you could pick up at the local auction house for $75. 

Breeding makes no sense to me. Thats why I wouldn't breed my horse...(outside of the fact that he is a gelding) . I would rather be able to pick exactly what I want. Not match a mare and a stallion and 'hope' for the best.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> Back yard breeders, in my estimation, must have a screw loose. Financially, hobby breeders make absolutely no sense. You are putting your mare (that you probably love and adore) at risk...scratch that...you are PAYING to put your mare at risk. Any number of problems can happen to ANY pregnancy. All to have one little baby. While not the same exact blood, the same baby that you could pick up at the local auction house for $75.
> 
> Breeding makes no sense to me. Thats why I wouldn't breed my horse...(outside of the fact that he is a gelding) . I would rather be able to pick exactly what I want. Not match a mare and a stallion and 'hope' for the best.


Your horse is at risk just by being in the pasture or in a stall. There is no guarantee your horse will be alive tomorrow or this afternoon, for that matter. It's a LOT cheaper for me to breed my mare than buy the show horse I want. Plus, I raise it and I know it will not be spoiled or have other issues from inadequate training.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

corinowalk said:


> Do you know anything about PMU farms, how they work and operate? They have made many changes. The whole practice is very strictly regulated now. Some fine horses have come from PMU farms. Some have gone to slaughter. Breeding is a crap shoot. For big business and small.
> 
> By big breeders, racing for one is usually at the top of everyones list. Yet most of us still watch the triple crown races absolutely enthralled by racing. Never mind that racing TB's are being packed on to a trailer as we speak.
> 
> ...


Being a medical professional, actually I do- and the senseless, pharmaceutical reason PMU foals exist in the first place.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Being a medical professional, actually I do- and the senseless, pharmaceutical reason PMU foals exist in the first place.


Very strange...if you are a "medical professional" you should know very well why PMU foals exist, and why it is not "senseless".

Fortunately with the advent of synthetics (although all women can't take them), and the emergence of lower dose protocols, the demand has greatly decreased, so the issue is not of the same magnitude it once was, but there is still a need and there is nothing senseless about it.

Hopefully a synthetic can be developed that all women can take that will negate the need for PMU farms, but all things considered, with the lesser demand and pressure from animal activists, there has been a pretty reasonable compromise/middleground achieved with fewer PMU farms/foals, more humane treatment, and using mares and stallions that produce marketable foals instead of draft crosses that nobody wants...


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

waresbear said:


> I thought this topic was on why YOU breed, not your speculations on reason why others breed or why they should or shouldn't. I hope to read more reasons from actual peops who have bred their horse & why.


I think there would have been more answers had the thread not started like this 



HannahFaith said:


> I'm sure this has already been addressed but i want to know WHY you keep breeding pointless horses?


 
I didn't bother to answer, though I am a breeder, because I'm not breeding pointless horses so for that I don't have an answer. I also have problem with the byb's out there and overproduction of horses that are a dime a dozen these days. 

I can tell you why I breed however. I'm the 3rd generation owner/trainer/breeder in my family. My grandfather started our farm in the 50's and started breeding in 1964 when he purchased a black son of Poco Dell from Jimmy Randalls. He then saved up and bought a few broodmares from the King Ranch & started a breeding program. He then added a second stud to the line up, a NCHA money earning son of Poco Pine. The farm has produced NRHA, NCHA, NRCHA money earners, AQHA pt earners, all-around champions, ROM's, superiors, Congress top 10 horses, & reserve world champions. 

While we are a small family owned farm, we breed with purpose and produce fine working horses with good conformation & excellent disposition. I however have cut back on what I breed for myself. I raise 2 or 3 babies a year, keep one (either for my personal horses or to finish out and sell later) and sell the others as weanlings. There was a time when we had a broodmare band of 30+. While I could probably still sell that many, I am the lone slave to my herd and that is more work than I personally want to take on. 

I can also raise a foal for a personal horse for much less than what I could buy one ready to go of the same quality. 

Here's my keeper this year. This is Merit at 7 weeks. (Need to get some new pics, he's 3 months now) He is out of our grandson of Poco Dell/Continental King and my gd of Peppy San Badger, Docs Tari & Docs Lynx. This little guy will be started as a reiner and cross trained in reined cowhorse. Because of the working relationships my grandfather, my mom & myself have created over the years, I've had 6 offers on him and he is not for sale nor has been advertised for sale. This is why I breed:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

corinowalk said:


> Back yard breeders, in my estimation, must have a screw loose. Financially, hobby breeders make absolutely no sense. You are putting your mare (that you probably love and adore) at risk...scratch that...you are PAYING to put your mare at risk. Any number of problems can happen to ANY pregnancy. All to have one little baby. While not the same exact blood, the same baby that you could pick up at the local auction house for $75.



This is a VERY weak argument. There is risk in anything and in fact most mares have their babies just fine...even WITHOUT our help.

This is like the alarmist calling out " the sky is falling, the sky is falling".



> Breeding makes no sense to me. Thats why I wouldn't breed my horse...(outside of the fact that he is a gelding) . I would rather be able to pick exactly what I want. Not match a mare and a stallion and 'hope' for the best.


The problem is that most animals you could go out and buy ARE NOT the lines you want and breeding IS the only option.

This is what I did. NOWHERE was anyone breeding what I wanted for me to pick up at ANY reasonable price.

If you do your research your "hope" for baby CAN be what you want. Again you keep calling out the extremes. You do have a way better chance of breeding the lines you want (esp if they are difficult to find at a reasonable price) than any expectation of finding them for $75.00.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Fortunately with the advent of synthetics (although all women can't take them), and the emergence of lower dose protocols, the demand has greatly decreased, so the issue is not of the same magnitude it once was, but there is still a need and there is nothing senseless about it.
> 
> Hopefully a synthetic can be developed that all women can take that will negate the need for PMU farms, but all things considered, with the lesser demand and pressure from animal activists, there has been a pretty reasonable compromise/middleground achieved with fewer PMU farms/foals, more humane treatment, and using mares and stallions that produce marketable foals instead of draft crosses that nobody wants...


Why are women taking these hormones to begin with? Being a woman I refuse to take hormones. My body will age and do what it is meant to and I'll deal with the results. Seems like women could make a difference with this issue by not taking them and lloking for alternatives.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Druydess said:


> I often disagree with popular opinion...LOL -- totally being humorous..
> But you may be on to something there- there is that whole follow the herd thing..
> 
> I think the real problem is big breeders who pump out dozens and hundreds to get one good one.. Therein lies the rub..



IMO the tb breeders and QH breeders throw a whole heck of a lot more horses on the ground than a back yard breeder ever could the tb industry being the worst of them all.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> By big breeders, racing for one is usually at the top of everyones list. Yet most of us still watch the triple crown races absolutely enthralled by racing. Never mind that racing TB's are being packed on to a trailer as we speak.
> *
> The problem that you see with TB stems from the fact that there is nothing more with in the Jockey Club then racing. So all the culls and finished TB that race and even the ones who do not have to find a new place to do anything. With say QH racing there are other events those horses with their owners can go and do. Racing the average owner can not just hop on and go show. You have to have a licensed trainer and Jockey and so on. So it makes it hard to find homes and uses for the culls.*
> 
> ...


You need to remember there is a BIG difference between a Hobby Breeder and a BYB. I am not a big breeder. I breed 1-2 mares a year. However I am no where close to a BYB. Not by a long shot. My stock rivals some of the top breeders in my Discipline. So what am I? Probably closer to a hobby breeder be it one that makes money at it. There is NO WAY I could find a prospect at the same price it cost for me to breed one. So I know I could not go to a local auction and pick up a prospect that is even close to the ones I have standing in my pasture.

However I do agree that for the most part what you said is true. The people who breed their average mare to an average stallion can go out and buy a foal for less then they can breed for. People need to think about what they are doing and think of it more as business with their mind and a lot less with emotion and their hart.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> IMO the tb breeders and QH breeders throw a whole heck of a lot more horses on the ground than a back yard breeder ever could the tb industry being the worst of them all.


While to an extent this is true think about all the foals produced by BYB who are TB and QH or what people THINK are TB or QH with out papers? These are all horses we can do with out 95% of the time. Yes there is a small need for lower end horses but not to the extent that there is a need to breed for them.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

gigem88 said:


> Why are women taking these hormones to begin with? Being a woman I refuse to take hormones. My body will age and do what it is meant to and I'll deal with the results.


You must still be young enough yet not to have to deal with the issues menopause causes, otherwise I don't think you'd be so flippant about just 'dealing with the results'.

Some women simply _cannot_ take the synthetic hormones or alternative treatments, and only actual Premarin will do. That's why there's still a need for it, not because the pharmaceutical companies and PMU farmers are making big bucks on production.

There are quite a few other things going on during menopause more than just the cessation of menstrual cycles. Physiological _and_ psychological changes abound, and some women need and _deserve_ a way to get relief from them.

There's no good reason women should have to 'deal with the results' of menopause when there's a perfectly good way to help control them.

I certainly hope you're not on any form of birth control if you have a problem with taking hormones.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> You must still be young enough yet not to have to deal with the issues menopause causes, otherwise I don't think you'd be so flippant about just 'dealing with the results'.
> 
> Some women simply _cannot_ take the synthetic hormones or alternative treatments, and only actual Premarin will do. That's why there's still a need for it, not because the pharmaceutical companies and PMU farmers are making big bucks on production.
> 
> ...


No, I'm not that young! lol I see one good reason to "deal with the results" and that is what just about everyone on here is complaining about....too many foals and horses with no jobs that end up at slaughter! Women have dealt with menopause and it's effects for hundreds of years, it's just another mile stone along the way. It seems like people think they can take a pill...and BOOM.....all their symtoms and pain and problems all go away.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> While to an extent this is true think about all the foals produced by BYB who are TB and QH or what people THINK are TB or QH with out papers? These are all horses we can do with out 95% of the time. Yes there is a small need for lower end horses but not to the extent that there is a need to breed for them.


This is true but you should see these farms down here they are loaded with foals and mares bred back how many of them are going to be successful at a racing career Makers Mark Secretariat center is over loaded as well as the animal shelters here that take horses 99% are tb's


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

gigem88 said:


> Women have dealt with menopause and it's effects for hundreds of years, it's just another mile stone along the way. It seems like people think they can take a pill...and BOOM.....all their symtoms and pain and problems all go away.


You know, karma has a way of dealing with people who make generalized, sweeping assumptions about something they have no experience in.

Call us back to tell us how you have changed your mind, when you're 55.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Gigem, people dealt with cancer for years before effective treatment was available for them too. Surely you are not against medical intervention in general? Or just the medically issues that are worthy to you?

My mother lost her mind after her medically necessary hysterectomy as she refused to take HRT until she was suicidal. Thankfully at that point she started taking the meds and has been fine since. 

I am glad that you don't feel that you would need the meds, but I don't think you should be as judgemental of others who do.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

gigem88 said:


> No, I'm not that young! lol I see one good reason to "deal with the results" and that is what just about everyone on here is complaining about....too many foals and horses with no jobs that end up at slaughter! Women have dealt with menopause and it's effects for hundreds of years, it's just another mile stone along the way. It seems like people think they can take a pill...and BOOM.....all their symtoms and pain and problems all go away.


Your information USED to be correct about the PMU farms, but is now completely out of date. PMU farms are not the horrible places you've been led to believe. There are very few actual licensed facilities that deal with the pharmaceutical companies. Anyone else claiming to be a PMU farm that isn't licensed is lying, and trying to play on peoples' sympathy and banking on their inability or laziness to do proper research.

PMU foals are going for pretty good prices now, because the mares and stallions being bred are picked for their conformation and ability to produce decent, marketable foals. Most of those foals are being sold to the sport horse people.

You're obviously not anywhere near menopause if you're still being so flippant about it. You never did say whether or not you're on birth control. After all, having baby after baby is 'completely natural' during your reproductive years, so if you're taking something to prevent them you're being awfully hypocritical about taking hormones.

I guess it's okay to take hormones if you don't want children, but God forbid you take them when you need some relief from symptoms that can lead to depression, suicide, and other emotional crises. :?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

gigem88 said:


> No, I'm not that young! lol I see one good reason to "deal with the results" and that is what just about everyone on here is complaining about....too many foals and horses with no jobs that end up at slaughter! Women have dealt with menopause and it's effects for hundreds of years, it's just another mile stone along the way. It seems like people think they can take a pill...and BOOM.....all their symtoms and pain and problems all go away.


Do you think if every woman in the country right now just got so disgusted with Premarin and they ALL stopped using it...what do you think would happen? Production isn't going to stop. Not right away. Premarin is necessary for some. There shouldn't be shame in having to use it.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

AlexS said:


> I am glad that you don't feel that you would need the meds, but I don't think you should be as judgemental of others who do.


I am NOT judging (but it seems like you are judging me!), but most of the women that I have encountered don't need to be on these hormones. Their symptoms are mild to none and they continue to take them whdn an herbal remedy would work just as good or better. I am going thru menopause and yes I refuse to take them. I have my therapy and I ride and groom them everyday!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Some women simply _cannot_ take the synthetic hormones or alternative treatments, and only actual Premarin will do. That's why there's still a need for it, not because the pharmaceutical companies and PMU farmers are making big bucks on production.


Great point, SR. 

I'm not going through menopause, but do have to take the real deal with my birth control for ovarian cysts. If I had a choice, of course I wouldn't take it but unfortunately for me it's a necessary evil.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

gigem88 said:


> Their symptoms are mild to none and they continue to take them whdn an herbal remedy would work just as good or better.


How do you know this? Are they confiding in you about how bad or not their symptoms are? Do you live in their homes and see them on a day to day basis and how they're dealing with menopause, or have you just decided because YOU don't need to take HRT, nobody else does either?

If you're not taking any hormones and are dealing with menopause just fine, good for you. You should feel lucky, because you ARE one of the lucky ones.

I also happen to be one of the lucky ones, and I thank God every day that I'm not going crazy, or having suicidal or homicidal thoughts. Many women I've known had actually appeared to lose their minds before their doctors finally decided to put them on HRT.

I don't judge anyone who needs medical/chemical intervention in order to live a normal, productive life.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Spyder said:


> This is a VERY weak argument. There is risk in anything and in fact most mares have their babies just fine...even WITHOUT our help.
> 
> This is like the alarmist calling out " the sky is falling, the sky is falling".
> 
> ...


See, when you want that exact line of horse and are willing to pay the price to get it and that foal is going to be marketable even if it *isn't* what you want, breeding makes more sense to me. If you have a $10K mare and find a stud that has everything you want and nothing you don't for a reasonable price, then I can see that being a sensible decision. 

What I am thinking of is Billy Bob and his brood of fresian/percheron/appy/tb/saddlebred cross mares breeding to his haflinger/qh/twh cross stallion and thinking that those foals will have more value than meat. 

I am not an alarmist at any rate about anything. I am part of the crowd that buys cheap horses. I ride the hell out of my $300 horse. If I had a $10K mare, I would be too busy wrapping her in bubble wrap to even think of breeding!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

gigem88 said:


> No, I'm not that young! lol I see one good reason to "deal with the results" and that is what just about everyone on here is complaining about....too many foals and horses with no jobs that end up at slaughter! Women have dealt with menopause and it's effects for hundreds of years, it's just another mile stone along the way. It seems like people think they can take a pill...and BOOM.....all their symtoms and pain and problems all go away.


In most cases you are correct...the same could be said about people who unnecessarily take pain pills or anti-depressants, or supposedly have "fybromyalgia" or "thyroid problems". I am an anti pill-popper myself and am disgusted by people that pop pills every time they stub their toe. 

But some women do truly have serious hormonal issues and do need Premarin if they are unable to take the synthetics, just as some people truly need pain or anti-depressant meds, and just as some people truly do have fybromyalgia or thyroid issues. It is not for you (or me) to say other people do or don't have an issue serious enough to warrant medication. That reeks of Obamacare where the government decides what people can and can't take or what procedures they can or can't obtain.

The fact is PMU farms and the whole PMU process are not what they used to be. Yes, there was a time when the uproar was justified, but it is hardly justified now. The horses are being used humanely - probably more humanely than in some of our "accepted" disciplines, and the foals being produced are far more marketable than they once were. Does it contribute to the over population problem? Of course, but no more or less than anyone anywhere that produces a foal, and in the case of PMU foals, there has at least been a constructive purpose accomplished in producing the foals, which is more than you can say for probably half the foals produced continent wide.

Don't get me wrong - I would be extremely happy to see a synthetic developed all women could use, and eliminate the need for Premarin altogether. But at this point that is fantasyland and we have to accept living in the real world. Animal activists accomplished a lot on the PMU issue. That is a good thing, but their job is done and it is time to move on to the next issue...


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Maybe I missed something in the original post but I didn't get the impression that this thread would mean war. She's right. Breeding horses should be a _thought out decision _made by those who can acknowledge the pros & cons. You are responsible for the foal that hits the ground. Why not atleast make it worth something in the event it needs to be sold? 
Same applies to dogs and cats. Breed responsibly. 
Who could argue with that? :hide::think:

(This is just my view on the OP, I only scanned through the following _confusing_ pages.)


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> This is true but you should see these farms down here they are loaded with foals and mares bred back how many of them are going to be successful at a racing career Makers Mark Secretariat center is over loaded as well as the animal shelters here that take horses 99% are tb's



Again I find this more of a Flaw in the JC then I do much of anything else. Think about it. Lets say I breed my mare. Which I do but that is not the point. Lets say her foal does not make a reiner. Ok not a big big deal. That foal can still go on and do many other events with in the AQHA/QH breed. There are a lot of people who line up wanting a cull reiner or one that has washed out or is being retired. Same with a lot of other QH lines. There are many many other events for them to do with in AQHA. There are also and this is a big one many many levels for the non pro/owner to use these horses in. If they are not an Open level horse they could easily be a non pro/Ammy/youth level horse. This is not the case with TB and the JC. They either race or what??? They have to find a home out out side of the JC. Yes they are great horses for other things but not with in the JC. The owners that breed race horses if they do not win in the track have nothing else to do with them. So they sell them.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Have I said lately how much I love Dusty, he's my rock yesterday I had to go hunt down my fave heifer who had gotten onto the neighbors farm because a tree on his side fell and took out the fencing and gate well I had to ride into a herd of like 30 cows with 5 bulls one of which I call king kong his head is as big as Dusty's butt and he was ticked at this horse coming thru his herd...he weighs over 2 tons I swear. so I have to sort my heifer out and get a rope on her and I dunno how to rope so I have to get out of the saddle to do this Dusty stood between me and the bull I got her roped and back in the saddle and we preceded to get her home bull wasnt happy but luckily didnt charge us. Dusty is an older wp bred horse or halter not sure he carries himself like a wp horse but yesterday he was a cow pony. Now isnt this why we're all here..because we love horses and I have to say nothing better than the view between the ears of your heart horse.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Again I find this more of a Flaw in the JC then I do much of anything else. Think about it. Lets say I breed my mare. Which I do but that is not the point. Lets say her foal does not make a reiner. Ok not a big big deal. That foal can still go on and do many other events with in the AQHA/QH breed. There are a lot of people who line up wanting a cull reiner or one that has washed out or is being retired. Same with a lot of other QH lines. There are many many other events for them to do with in AQHA. There are also and this is a big one many many levels for the non pro/owner to use these horses in. If they are not an Open level horse they could easily be a non pro/Ammy/youth level horse. This is not the case with TB and the JC. They either race or what??? They have to find a home out out side of the JC. Yes they are great horses for other things but not with in the JC. The owners that breed race horses if they do not win in the track have nothing else to do with them. So they sell them.



Exactly QH's are way more versatile and can do pretty much anything they area thinking horse I think the tb's are bred to run nothing more, well maybe jump and while there are alot of people who like them theres just so many more of them sitting in rescues or feedlots being honest if your looking at a rescue they have a tb and a qh who's gonna get a home first.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not even going to go as fare as to say that TB can do nothing more then Run and a big of jumping. I think that with the correct training they can be good mounts. The problem is more with the JC then with the TB as a breed. There is nothing more do it with in the JC then run. There is no Non pro or youth divisions. Nothing. There are no shows past the racing. So what are you going to do with these horses??

Just think is the JC added regular shows for TB like what AQHA has just think what that could open up for the TB horses as a whole?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Exactly QH's are way more versatile and can do pretty much anything they area thinking horse I think the tb's are bred to run nothing more, well maybe jump and while there are alot of people who like them theres just so many more of them sitting in rescues or feedlots being honest if your looking at a rescue they have a tb and a qh who's gonna get a home first.



I have to say, I *totally* disagree with this statement. I have owned QH most of my life. If it wasn't gaited, it was a QH. I switched it up a bit this time and have a TB. He is just as awesome and versatile as my QH's. He has more cowsense than most of the QH's I've ridden, he has a great ground covering gait that is wonderful for trail, he is highly trainable, smart, personable, goes english and western. Not to get too personal on this but this "TB's are only good for english riding or racing' is what is causing the problem. I've never had a better trail partner.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not even going to go as fare as to say that TB can do nothing more then Run and a big of jumping. I think that with the correct training they can be good mounts. The problem is more with the JC then with the TB as a breed. There is nothing more do it with in the JC then run. There is no Non pro or youth divisions. Nothing. There are no shows past the racing. So what are you going to do with these horses??
> 
> Just think is the JC added regular shows for TB like what AQHA has just think what that could open up for the TB horses as a whole?



Most defiantly.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Gigem, people dealt with cancer for years before effective treatment was available for them too. Surely you are not against medical intervention in general? Or just the medically issues that are worthy to you?
> 
> My mother lost her mind after her medically necessary hysterectomy as she refused to take HRT until she was suicidal. Thankfully at that point she started taking the meds and has been fine since.
> 
> I am glad that you don't feel that you would need the meds, but I don't think you should be as judgemental of others who do.


 
My mother came home in a sweat, literally, her blouse was soaking wet, & she was crying. She said she driving on the wrong side of the road to try & hit someone because she was mad at the world. Fortunately she snapped out of it before someone came along & they collided. She went right to the doctor & went through a series of hormones medications before she found one that would help her, it was premarin. Granted this was a few decades ago. Also please do not tell my mother I was discussing her menopause on a public forum.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> I have to say, I *totally* disagree with this statement. I have owned QH most of my life. If it wasn't gaited, it was a QH. I switched it up a bit this time and have a TB. He is just as awesome and versatile as my QH's. He has more cowsense than most of the QH's I've ridden, he has a great ground covering gait that is wonderful for trail, he is highly trainable, smart, personable, goes english and western. Not to get too personal on this but this "TB's are only good for english riding or racing' is what is causing the problem. I've never had a better trail partner.


You know this and I know this but in reality how many out there do just like the arabs have an unjust rep for being crazy tb's have the rep for doing nothing but run and being hard to handle.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

See, people believe that because statements like:

I think the tb's are bred to run nothing more, well maybe jump

are made and people believe it. 

There are far more sound, sane, easy going TB's in the world than crazies.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> You know this and I know this but in reality how many out there do just like the arabs have an unjust rep for being crazy tb's have the rep for doing nothing but run and being hard to handle.


Wait, _you're_ the one who stated QHs were more versatile than anything else, and that TBs are only good for 'English riding or racing', so how can you say 'you and I know this', when you said_ exactly_ the opposite? :?

I'd venture a guess my JJ, Alex's Luke, and Cori's Froggy are more the norm for TBs than the 'crazy' ones. It's always the nutsy ones that get the attention, so of course close minded people like to tar a whole breed with the same paintbrush. I think maybe the_ really_ successful racers are probably more sensitive and 'up', because that's what makes them successful. Many more TBs just don't have the drive to excel on the racetrack, which is what makes them so good at so many other things.

I can say I think QHs are lazy, stupid, and ugly, but that wouldn't make me any more right than someone saying TBs are unhandleable, loco, and only make good jumpers or racers. Neither is true.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Exactly QH's are way more versatile and can do pretty much anything they area thinking horse I think the tb's are bred to run nothing more, well maybe jump and while there are alot of people who like them theres just so many more of them sitting in rescues or feedlots being honest if your looking at a rescue they have a tb and a qh who's gonna get a home first.


I went to team penning (!) once. The team (of 3 younger girls) was kicking everyone butts just like that. Guess what? They all were riding TBs! Not a very cowey breed should I say, but they did wonder. ANY breed can do great in many disciplines. If you want to put time and training into it. High levels? Not so much. But then my cow bred qh wouldn't make a good cutting horse either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> I can say I think QHs are lazy, stupid, and ugly.


Now THAT is offensive, SR! :rofl:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

gigem88 said:


> I am NOT judging (but it seems like you are judging me!), but most of the women that I have encountered don't need to be on these hormones. Their symptoms are mild to none and they continue to take them whdn an herbal remedy would work just as good or better. I am going thru menopause and yes I refuse to take them. I have my therapy and I ride and groom them everyday!


Do you realize that you said 'I am NOT judging, but'
and went onto do a whole bunch of judging?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Wait, _you're_ the one who stated QHs were more versatile than anything else, and that TBs are only good for 'English riding or racing', so how can you say 'you and I know this', when you said_ exactly_ the opposite? :?
> 
> I'd venture a guess my JJ, Alex's Luke, and Cori's Froggy are more the norm for TBs than the 'crazy' ones. It's always the nutsy ones that get the attention, so of course close minded people like to tar a whole breed with the same paintbrush. I think maybe the_ really_ successful racers are probably more sensitive and 'up', because that's what makes them successful. Many more TBs just don't have the drive to excel on the racetrack, which is what makes them so good at so many other things.
> 
> I can say I think QHs are lazy, stupid, and ugly, but that wouldn't make me any more right than someone saying TBs are unhandleable, loco, and only make good jumpers or racers. Neither is true.



I say this because all I see are tb's that are ott but if you ask horse people about them thats the response you get QH's are know for being versatile some know by experience the tb can do most the same things qh or other breeds do but how many out there dont know this ask the rescues in Ky about this because they see it every day.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Now THAT is offensive, SR! :rofl:


Whut? Ain't it true just 'cause I said it was so, even though I have no proof, facts, or even experience to bolster my argument? :wink:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Whut? Ain't it true just 'cause I said it was so, even though I have no proof, facts, or even experience to bolster my argument? :wink:


LOL glass houses and stones come to mind.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I say this because all I see are tb's that are ott but if you ask horse people about them thats the response you get.


Really? Because JJ, Froggy, and Lucas are ALL ex-racers, and nobody I've been around has said anything like that at all. 

You need to start hanging out with horse people who know a little more than your friends do about ex-racing TBs. :?

I also think you don't understand sarcasm very well, if you're trying to point out stones and glass houses to_ me_. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Whut? Ain't it true just 'cause I said it was so, even though I have no proof, facts, or even experience to bolster my argument? :wink:


Pick a different breed, lady! I have my own lazy qh, so I don't need an extra-reminder how lazy she is (although I gonna argue about ugliness)! ****! And my paint (with lots of TB on her pedigree) is indeed good for just jumping (and dressage). She definitely is not a good pick for cow work. :lol:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Really? Because JJ, Froggy, and Lucas are ALL ex-racers, and nobody I've been around has said anything like that at all.
> 
> You need to start hanging out with horse people who know a little more than your friends do about ex-racing TBs. :?


You know its clear you dont like me its clear you come at everything I say how about just leaving me alone kk. I live in the horse racing capital almost every tb is ott and they cant give them away because they are either hurt or a basket case.... here in Ky now when you live here and see that this is the norm here for tb's then you can judge me and call me ignorant all you want .


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I wish my TB was hotter, he is the laziest darn mule I have ever owned. He has also only been off the track for 2 years and won $35k with only 10 races. 

When I ride, my legs get more of a work out than his do.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Really? Because JJ, Froggy, and Lucas are ALL ex-racers, and nobody I've been around has said anything like that at all.
> 
> You need to start hanging out with horse people who know a little more than your friends do about ex-racing TBs. :?
> 
> I also think you don't understand sarcasm very well, if you're trying to point out stones and glass houses to_ me_. :wink:


BTW what I really want to point out to you isnt forum approved.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

No, they're ALL fugly, lazy and should be doing WESTERN things, 'cause that's all QHs are good for! Psssh, don't you know *anything, *Kitten? :-x


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Perlino, every breed was "created" (hmmm... if it's a good word) for certain purpose. Including QHs and TBs. But again horse is the horse and is trainable in discipline of your choice (if it has a heart to do the particular discipline). While TBs are not my cup of tea (mostly because of the way most of them move - quite bumpy to my taste) they are very popular in all kinds of disciplines around here: english AND western.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

By the way, I think it needs mentioning that I totally agree that the JC needs to do more to promote the breed as a versatile horse. I once thought that a TB would *never* be the horse for me. Froggy (my OTTB who raced for 5 years, never successfully) is amazing. He is an awesome trail horse, has the wind for endurance (even if I don't), has an amazing cow sense, has a very nice trot when he isn't star gazing and I've seen him jump 2'+ on his own...lol 

Here he is being a 'typical' crazed racehorse!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Perlino, every breed was "created" (hmmm... if it's a good word) for certain purpose. Including QHs and TBs. But again horse is the horse and is trainable in discipline of your choice (if it has a heart to do the particular discipline). While TBs are not my cup of tea (mostly because of the way most of them move - quite bumpy to my taste) they are very popular in all kinds of disciplines around here: english AND western.



I dont disagree with this.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> No, they're ALL fugly, lazy and should be doing WESTERN things, 'cause that's all QHs are good for! Psssh, don't you know *anything, *Kitten? :-x


I know that, but my qh does NOT - so go tell her! :wink: Out of everything I tried with her (almost everything I could think of besides reining) she seems to enjoy dressage the most (as it gives her a chance to show off in arena when she is in mood for it).

P.S. Yes, yes, I'm good about feeling sarcasm.... Bahahahahahaha.....


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> You know its clear you dont like me its clear you come at everything I say how about just leaving me alone kk. I live in the horse racing capital almost every tb is ott and they cant give them away because they are either hurt or a basket case.... here in Ky now when you live here and see that this is the norm here for tb's then you can judge me and call me ignorant all you want .


I 'come at' everything you say because it's just plain WRONG. It has nothing to do with whether or not I do or don't like you. I don't like your spouting things as concrete fact, when all you're doing is posting_ opinions_.

You may live in KY, but if you own and ride QHs I hardly think you're a mover and shaker in the TB world, or know the slightest thing about racing and what goes on at the tracks.

You're merely blathering rumor and opinion as facts, and then getting your panties ruffled when someone calls you on it.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> By the way, I think it needs mentioning that I totally agree that the JC needs to do more to promote the breed as a versatile horse. I once thought that a TB would *never* be the horse for me. Froggy (my OTTB who raced for 5 years, never successfully) is amazing. He is an awesome trail horse, has the wind for endurance (even if I don't), has an amazing cow sense, has a very nice trot when he isn't star gazing and I've seen him jump 2'+ on his own...lol
> 
> Here he is being a 'typical' crazed racehorse!


UGH.... I dont think they are never said I thought that I said alot of people out there do think that.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> I 'come at' everything you say because it's just plain WRONG. It has nothing to do with whether or not I do or don't like you. I don't like your spouting things as concrete fact, when all you're doing is posting_ opinions_.
> 
> You may live in KY, but if you own and ride QHs I hardly think you're a mover and shaker in the TB world, or know the slightest thing about racing and what goes on at the tracks.
> 
> You're merely blathering rumor and opinion as facts, and then getting your panties ruffled when someone calls you on it.


**** if you say so....


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I know that, but my qh does NOT - so go tell her! :wink: Out of everything I tried with her (almost everything I could think of besides reining) she seems to enjoy dressage the most (as it gives her a chance to show off in arena when she is in mood for it).
> 
> P.S. Yes, yes, I'm good about feeling sarcasm.... Bahahahahahaha.....


Maybe your girl and my guy should swap breeds! *laugh* When I tell people I ride a TB, most of them are all 'ohh, do you do hunters or jumpers' or 'really? What level does he ride?'. If he were just a QH, no one would question me trail riding and playing with cows!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Exactly QH's are way more versatile and can do pretty much anything they area thinking horse *I think the tb's are bred to run nothing more, well maybe jump* and while there are alot of people who like them theres just so many more of them sitting in rescues or feedlots being honest if your looking at a rescue they have a tb and a qh who's gonna get a home first.



Your contradiction in bold.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> *I say this because all I see are tb's that are ott but if you ask horse people about them thats the response you get* QH's are know for being versatile some know by experience the tb can do most the same things qh or other breeds do *but how many out there dont know this ask the rescues in Ky about this because they see it every day*.


Your other contradictions in bold.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

corinowalk said:


> Maybe your girl and my guy should swap breeds! *laugh* When I tell people I ride a TB, most of them are all 'ohh, do you do hunters or jumpers' or 'really? What level does he ride?'. If he were just a QH, no one would question me trail riding and playing with cows!


LOL! I think I'm good, cori.  May be she's lazy at times and has her mind (all the time) but she'll give a heart for me when needed (and after she changed noone questions me anymore why I decided to do dressage with her despite her not being a "dressage breed", "dressage confo", etc.). 

Actually several people I know got OTTBs specifically for the trail riding. VERY quite and reliable mounts!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I suppose by Perlino's definition since I live in VA I should know, apparently just by osmosis and no real experience, how the tobacco industry works. Since y'know, I live here and that's one of the major money makers for the state. Oh, along with beef cattle. 

So since I _live_ here, I must certainly should have absorbed complete knowledge of both industries and how they work, without actually ever being an insider to either one. Merely a minor detail and of no importance, right?

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> LOL! I think I'm good, cori.  May be she's lazy at times and has her mind (all the time) but she'll give a heart for me when needed (and after she changed noone questions me anymore why I decided to do dressage with her despite her not being a "dressage breed", "dressage confo", etc.).
> 
> Actually several people I know got OTTBs specifically for the trail riding. VERY quite and reliable mounts!


That sounds more "Mare" than anything...LOL


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> No, they're ALL fugly, lazy and should be doing WESTERN things, 'cause that's all QHs are good for! Psssh, don't you know *anything, *Kitten? :-x


:lol: Please don't tell my herd that SR! I'll agree on the lazy for some of mine, but no fuglies! Jana likes to jump as much as slide & spin. I'd be sad if someone told her that she's not supposed to like other things! She'd also be sad if I told her that my friend's TB isn't supposed to like team penning with her. 

Interesting how this thread has went so many different directions. Went from BYBs to the PMU industry to now stereotyping breeds. :?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Interesting how this thread has went so many different directions. Went from BYBs to the PMU industry to now stereotyping breeds. :?


The Thread Drift Fairy; we haz her! 

I have Arabians and an ex-racing TB, so I know all about breed stereotyping. Doesn't help that Casper really _is _one of the few and far between Arabians who combines all the bad stereotypes into one cute, little, fleabitten body. :?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Haha...I went out to mow some grass, and this thread really took off on a TB drift...:lol:

I am an Appy man, and impartial when it comes to Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds, so I'll chip in with a more objective point of view.

Horses vary from individual to individual, but you do have to look at the breed as a whole and when you do so you can certainly generalize. Again, there are variances so your results may vary...

Thoroughbreds are indeed a versatile breed. It isn't rocket science to figure out why. They were develolped and have since been refined to have a near 50-50 ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fiber...that gives them a blend of endurance and performance (performance in this context means explosive power). No, they aren't as explosively powerful as a QH (higher percentage of fast twitch fiber), so don't do as well in performance, and no they do not have the endurance of an Arab (higher percentage of slow twitch fiber), but they are versatile enough to do both reasonably well. The problem with TB's is as a breed (referring to those bred for racing), they have been very poorly bred for many generations. Breeding has been for speed at the sacrifice of hardiness and soundness. Their bones are too light for their size, their hooves are poor, and they have weak tendons and joints...in other words, everything has been sacrificed for speed. Before anyone gets up in arms, stop and think - those are just plain facts. That certainly doesn't mean all TB's are crippled or unsound, it means on a relative basis compared to other breeds, the breed has more issues with the things I mentioned above.

With versatility comes a negative factor. That is, other than flat track racing, they generally do not excel at anything in particular. As a result, as Heidi said, there is a narrow market for racing bred TB's. Yes, they can run around barrels and trail ride and jump, but if someone is really serious about a partricular discipline, a TB is not going to be the breed of choice as often as other breeds.

Personally, I think that TB's, Appys, Appendix QH's, and half-Arabs are the "versatility" field of horses, which shouldn't come as a surprise if you know your horses. These are the horses that will come out on top in a "horsey decathalon", with the Quarterhorses winning the strength events and the Arabs winning the endurance events. But that is exactly what one should expect given the breeds themselves and why they were developed and how they have been bred and refined over the years. There is no breed prejudice there, simply stating what is....is. You wouldn't expect a St. Bernard to win a dog agility event or a Border Collie to win a sled pulling contest because that is not what each was bred to do. It is no different with horses.

To be redundant, individuals vary and there are also horses that are anomalous to their breeding, so no rule can be hard and fast, but to use a Yogi-ism, a horse is what it is and isn't what it isn't...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> The Thread Drift Fairy; we haz her!
> 
> I have Arabians and an ex-racing TB, so I know all about breed stereotyping. Doesn't help that Casper really _is _one of the few and far between Arabians who combines all the bad stereotypes into one cute, little, fleabitten body. :?


Maybe it comes with the name. My personal riding horse is named Casper,and is an Araloosa that should be able to do it all. On those rare occasions when he moves at all you sort of wish he hadn't. My best rides with him are when I walk him under a shade tree, mount, and then just enjoy the day...moving just enough to stay in the shade of the tree as the sun moves across the sky - taking frequent rest breaks, of course...:lol::lol:


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

They all just hay burning nags and we breed more of them because we need more life forms to suck our resources dry. There I am done.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I completely agree with you, Face. 

Actual _facts_ about a breed, and not merely _opinions_ ventured as fact, are in no way insulting to any breed aficionado.

I know all about bad feet in TBs, and I knew when I took on JJ that I'd probably have issues with his feet, unlike my Arabians, whose feet are almost as hard as iron. 

As you stated, each breed was purposely bred for a certain discipline. That doesn't make them completely wrong for other disciplines, but it does mean that except for a few stellar examples they'll fall somewhere in the middle of the road, talent wise.

Perhaps it is the name, and not the actual horse. Casper after all refers to a ghost, so maybe it's a jinxed name right from the start. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> Personally, I think that TB's, Appys, Appendix QH's, and half-Arabs are the "versatility" field of horses, which shouldn't come as a surprise if you know your horses.


Hmmmmm.... You took off foundation QHs from the list, as well as Paints (which is quite offensive). Should I go nasty and take off foundation Appys too? :rofl:


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Seems like many of the posts on this forum are of accidental breedings. So many "is my mare pregnant" threads or "my son in law put a stallion with my mare" or the stallion got loose or "my 2 yr old colt runs with the mares". But regardless there are lots of accidental breeding with all animals and including humans. That is just how life is.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Hmmmmm.... You took off foundation QHs from the list, as well as Paints (which is quite offensive). Should I go nasty and take off foundation Appys too? :rofl:


Hey now, no picking on my foundation QHs! :lol: I'll stick up for your paints too, KV! Guess I have to go tell Hondo now that his 5 AQHA All-Around titles were just a waste of bronze.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Hey now, no picking on my foundation QHs! :lol: I'll stick up for your paints too, KV! Guess I have to go tell Hondo now that his 5 AQHA All-Around titles were just a waste of bronze.


MHFQ, the point is my qh IS foundation too. And she was left behind the list! :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Seems like many of the posts on this forum are of accidental breedings. So many "is my mare pregnant" threads or "my son in law put a stallion with my mare" or the stallion got loose or "my 2 yr old colt runs with the mares". But regardless there are lots of accidental breeding with all animals and including humans. That is just how life is.



This is the problem. There is no reason for an accidental breeding when it comes to horses. Non at all.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

As far as all that goes, with the versatility, I firmly believe it's all in the individual horse. While I know mine are bred to be cutters and get down & dirty on a cow, they tend to be fairly good jacks of all trades. 

I think most breeds can be within reason, there's no super breed that can be great at it all but there's no reason that most can't do a bit of everything!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Hmmmmm.... You took off foundation QHs from the list, as well as Paints (which is quite offensive). Should I go nasty and take off foundation Appys too? :rofl:


Nope...foundation quarterhorses are as different from foundation 
Appys as night and day...no surprise as their origins are completely different. Appys were around as versatile horses arising from Spanish stock long before Quarterhorses were even developed. And until relatively recently, Paints were a color breed...in that respect you could say that the Paints of old were versatile as they had all kinds of origins and conformations, but weren't a breed as such - much like the modern day Appys as defined by ApHC...they are really not a breed...


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I just want to point out the fact that even breeders who have been in the business a long time can make mistakes._

_My grandparents bought a well bred stud, with a lifetime mark of 1:51:2, and well over $100,000 in the bank. They never would have been able to afford him, but he was in an accident, which left him banged up and "marked". The farm that owned him wouldn't have been able to stand him at stud without being laughed at, but he was perfect for someone who was wanting to breed a few mares. _

_He was bred to some of our mares, and all of the foals were solid, sound, great conformation. Turned out that some of them were to be too slow to do much on the track. A couple of them raced, and picked up some cheques, but not enough for them to be worthwhile keeping and having the expense of._

_Of course, he has since gone since he wasn't producing fast enough horses...but it still took us 4 years to find out nothing was fast enough, and the mares had been bred back a few times too him._

_So now, all his beautiful babies have gone on to be buggy horses._

_And thats the result of an educated breeder, and an experienced owner...._


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> As far as all that goes, with the versatility, I firmly believe it's all in the individual horse.


That's VERY true!


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is the problem. There is no reason for an accidental breeding when it comes to horses. Non at all.


Yeah, seems to happen a lot on here though. I am always skeptical about how accidental it is, but i really do try not to judge. I have had horses all my life, as have my parents and grandparents. There have been no foals born (accidental or otherwise), and I even owned a stallion for a little while. Maybe it is area specific? I don't know if I could orchestrate an "accident" even if I wanted to. I support everyone's right to breed a horse if they want to though... It is, after all, their horse. I might have done it if riding age Arabians were not so plentiful and cheep. I don't know that I would want to wait that long for the foal to mature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> Your contradiction in bold.



Because they were made to run duh


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is the problem. There is no reason for an accidental breeding when it comes to horses. Non at all.


 
With that said, how would you title a mare getting pregnant by a yearling whom the owners didn't know could bred at that age? Ignorance?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Ladybug2001 said:


> With that said, how would you title a mare getting pregnant by a yearling whom the owners didn't know could bred at that age? Ignorance?


Actually yes. Because _*educating *_yourself is part of "the must" for the responsible horse owner. If you keep intact animals they WILL breed sooner of later. It's that simple and any adult (and even teenager these days) should of know about it. So the first thing owner must do is to research if it's safe to keep them together. Just MHO.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I have a yearling colt and he is pastured with Dusty and the mini horse just to be safe I occasionally let them in the yard when I am out supervising but other than that I treat him as if he is a 10 yr old stallion because you never know when that part of their brain will mature.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I was told that the FQHA is a great way to show your QH because its not as political as the AQHA anyone else hear this My friend shows her QH's has for many years and she now is strictly FQHA. I have a few facebook friends who do this too course does the horse get the notoriety that one showing AQHA would get?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

By "F" you mean Foundation? Frankly I think it's a fake but I may be wrong. I remember running in at least 2 "foundation" associations (when I was looking to check % in my qh years back). Not positive how it can be, but it was what it was. I believe in one of them 85%+ was considered to be "foundation", in other one 90%+ (something like that).


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

VelvetsAB said:


> _I just want to point out the fact that even breeders who have been in the business a long time can make mistakes._


No doubt about it. I was a breeder for 20 years and bred some very good horses, but I certainly made some mistakes along the way...most breeders do. That's why some of us like to lend what expertise we have - to save other people from making the same mistakes. Just remember that no one - and I mean no one - is infallible. All experience and expertise do is help achieve the best possible odds, and no one hits a home run every time at bat.

Plus you get the occasional anomalies, and there is nothing you can do about that. A particular sire and dam can produce 5 or 6 great foals in a row, and then all of a sudden you get a dud. Of course a dud from a very good breeder is still usually a good horse by most standards, but every once in a while you get a real ringer like my horse Casper - a total train wreck from the same sire and dam that produced several good horses...funny thing is he is a perfectly good trail horse for an old far! like me, and curiously enough I have been offered quite a bit of money for him, but as the breeder, I figure it's my responsibility to keep the dufus. Besides, he's 11 now, and has never been off the ranch - he's so stupid he would probably get lost as soon as he crossed the fenceline...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> By "F" you mean Foundation? Frankly I think it's a fake but I may be wrong. I remember running in at least 2 "foundation" associations (when I was looking to check % in my qh years back). Not positive how it can be, but it was what it was. I believe in one of them 85%+ was considered to be "foundation", in other one 90%+ (something like that).


Hum heres the link Register & Join
I wondered about it too but Mary shows her QH's there


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

corinowalk said:


> If you have a $10K mare and find a stud that has everything you want and nothing you don't for a reasonable price, then I can see that being a sensible decision.


No a $1200.00 mare and a stud for a $850.00 stud fee. All with internationally proven blood lines.

And NOWHERE could I find anything already born that even matched it.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> BTW what I really want to point out to you isnt forum approved.





LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> duh



My goodness, you are rude.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

gigem88 said:


> Why are women taking these hormones to begin with? Being a woman I refuse to take hormones. My body will age and do what it is meant to and I'll deal with the results. Seems like women could make a difference with this issue by not taking them and lloking for alternatives.


That's my point- As I said being a Medical Professional- I KNOW what's behind it. It IS senseless, and THAT hormone, packaged and shoved down the throats of women at the tune of millions of $$, actually causes cancer. I find that senseless.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Where is the proof that Premarin causes cancer?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

AlexS said:


> My goodness, you are rude.


Since the one seems to enjoy attacking me this is the second week now I have had to put up with her attacking me a person can only take so much before they smack back.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

I've been asked by numerous people why I don't breed my hedgehogs. "But you know so much about them!"

Yes, because I did my research. I did enough research to know that I don't want to breed and run the risk of the delivery killing my girls, or the mother cannibalizing the litter. I've had hedgehogs long enough to know that I don't have the time for feedings every 2 hours, around the clock, for 6 weeks if mama can't handle them herself. I know enough to realize that the market for hedgehogs isn't good enough to warrant me breeding another litter. And the biggest reason... my hedgehogs are all rescues, of questionable lineage. There is no way in H-E-double hockey sticks that I'd continue that line. I paid to have my girls spayed in case my boy got loose. I keep them in separate cages, but they're accomplished climbers and if they want to escape, they will find a way. $200 for a spay seems quite worthwhile when I think of the potential costs incurred from a difficult delivery or illness.

I think the same can be translated to horse breeding. I don't do it because I don't have the time, money or stock.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Where is the proof that Premarin causes cancer?



Lol if you google it you get the same bunch of risks , well not the same, but an equally long list that you get with any medication.

Being poised on the very brink of menopause here, I won't rule anything in or out, just the same as any other condition that you have to deal with, if the cure is worse than condition, then I'll stick with the condition.

I think there is a lot of outdated thinking on PMU barns, they now have to breed quality foals, they are a source of income rather than an unfortunate by product of the production of urine.

Looking at the quality of life that the mares have, then actually it's not a bad life, there are many more mares who are living in far worse conditions for sure.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Not that my 20 +years in Critical Care, CCU, ICU, Medical/Surgical ICU, etc..in the best, pioneering hospitals all over the East coast, or my Chemo Certifications and Cancer experience, or tending the sawed of breasts of women who took Premarin is any kind of actual expertise.. 
Here is one of many articles..


Germany Study Shows Prempro & Premarin Increase Risk of Breast Cancer
A newly released German study found that the hormone replacement drugs, Prempro and Premarin, both manufactured by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, increase a woman’s risk of breast cancer if taken for over five years.
The study
Initiated by the German Cancer Research Center and University Hospitals, the study looked at over 10,000 women between the ages of 50 and 74 over a six year period. It concluded that women who have already been treated with hormone replacement therapy (HRT) drugs, such as Prempro or Premarin, have a 37 percent higher risk of developing breast cancer than who weren’t. It also concluded that women taking these HRT drugs have a 73 percent higher risk of developing breast cancer. While these numbers seem outrageous, they coincide with other studies that have been conducted in the United States by the Women’s Health Initiative and Harvard University.
What are these drugs?
Prempro is a combination therapy of the estrogen and progesterone replacement drugs generally referred to as hormone replacement therapy. Premarin is a compound drug consisting primarily of conjugated estrogens. Both are manufactured by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals and have been linked to increased rates of breast cancer. It is estimated that thousands of lawsuits have been filed against the company over these drugs’ usage.
Prempro Side Effects – Breast Cancer, Heart Attacks & Strokes
Despite information about serious side effects that have been available for more than 3 years, Pempro, Wyeth’s hormone replacement therapy (HRT) drug, is still a top-selling drug. Prempro combines estrogen and progesterone to treat the effects of menopause.
Life-threatening Prempro side effects include and increased risk of:
•	Breast cancer
•	Ovarian cancer
•	Gallbladder cancer
•	Strokes
•	Blood clots
•	Pulmonary embolisms
Other serious Prempro side effects include:
•	Severe asthma
•	Lupus
•	Scleroderma
•	Wyeth & Upjohn Ordered To Pay $27M in Punitive Damages over HRT Drugs
•	Following a jury trial in which Wyeth Pharmaceuticals and Upjohn Co. were ordered to pay $2.7M to an Arkansas woman who was diagnosed with breast cancer after taking hormone replacement therapy (HRT) drugs, the pharmaceutical companies were hit with another $27 million in punitive damages in the case.
•	The case
•	An Arkansas woman developed breast cancer and had to undergo a double mastectomy after taking HRT drugs for over 10 years. She sued Wyeth and Upjohn and was initially awarded $2.75 million on February 25, 2008. The jury then awarded her $27 million in punitive damages for the pharmaceutical companies' failure to warn about the increased risks of breast cancer associated with HRT drugs.
•	More and more lawsuits being filed
•	It is estimated that Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, the manufacturer of the Prempro and Premarin, and the Upjohn Company (now Pfizer and the manufacturer of Provera) face thousands of lawsuits from women alleging that these drugs caused their breast cancer.
•	Prempro, which received FDA approval in 1994, has been at the center of the HRT controversy as it has been prescribed to millions of women. Apart from breast cancer, the drug has been linked to various side effects including heart attacks and strokes.
•	Following a study conducted by the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) showing these links, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration required Wyeth to change Prempro's labeling to include information from the WHI study – specifically that the drug may increase the risk of myocardial infarctions (heart attacks), strokes, invasive breast cancer, pulmonary embolisms (blood clots), and deep vein thrombosis (deep vein blood clots) in postmenopausal women who take the drug for more than 5 years.
•	Only 5% of victims have filed cases thus far
•	Only five percent of potential victims have filed cases over HRT injuries thus far, according to Bryan Aylstock, a Florida attorney whose firm protects the rights of consumers who are seriously injured due to defective drugs such as Prempro. Aylstock says that the potential numbers of victims are staggering. In fact, he says that number exceeds 100,000. He explained that, "The number of filed cases is in the order of 5,000 at this point. So, there's a large population of people out there who still probably don't know that their use of this combination hormone replacement therapy could have caused their breast cancer."


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I was told that the FQHA is a great way to show your QH because its not as political as the AQHA anyone else hear this My friend shows her QH's has for many years and she now is strictly FQHA. I have a few facebook friends who do this too course does the horse get the notoriety that one showing AQHA would get?


 
It's not all it's made out to be. I have mine registered FQHR & NFQHA but only so that I can go to those shows to school youngsters before spending more money at breed or sanctioned shows for specific disciplines. There are foundation associations, ranch horse, etc. I'm of the belief that they are for those that can't cut it in the AQHA, NRHA, NCHA, NRCHA. While they are a more fun atmosphere and not political it really won't do much in the way of adding value to a horse. There's honestly more competition at an added money local show than these types of shows. If one was looking to have fun and enjoy a show now and then, they are good for that but if you are looking to add value or promotability to a horse it really doesn't do anymore for a horse than 4-H/open level shows.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> Hormone Myth #2: "Estrogen causes breast cancer"
> Fact: The estrogen only arm of the WHI showed no increase risk of breast cancer
> The Women's Health Initiative, WHI showed an increase risk of breast cancer in women who took a combination of Premarin and Provera known by the product name Prempro. The other arm that consisted of Premarin only showed no increase risk of breast cancer compared to the non hormone users. The factor seems to be the Provera used in Prempro. This is a synthetic hormone that is very much stronger than the body's own natural progesterone. This creates an imbalance in the two hormones that seem to predispose the breast to changes that may lead to cancer.
> A European study looked at estrogen with natural versus synthetic progesterone. The study showed no increase risk in the natural progesterone arm with a two fold increase risk in the synthetic progesterone arm. I think the take home message is to avoid synthetic progesterone until it is proven safe.


Exploring Hormone Myths

Or better yet: Questions and Answers About WHI Postmenopausal Hormone Therapy Trials, NHLBI, WHI

Read up on the Women's Health Initiative. They--meaning dedicated researchers, doctors, Ph.D.'s, etc.--not laymen--pretty well disproved most of the Premarin myths years ago.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

If anyone think the Pharmaceutical companies will post accurate information at the expense of billions, well, that's very naive..
I've been treating Cancer patients since before many on this forum were born. An RN with 20 years experience working with the best professionals in the country is HARDLY a layman.. I get paid well for my expertise.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Druydess said:


> If anyone think the Pharmaceutical companies will post accurate information at the expense of billions, well, *that's very naive.*.


YEP!:shock:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Actually, when I was getting my first hot flash, I did some digging with my physician. I did find studies that showed increase risks of cancer. I weighed the risk/benefit carefully and opted for no hormones. It is a personal choice, any way you look at it.

How about we drop the hormone bickering as it is detracting from the original intent of the thread, IMO.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

In addition, it may behoove one to know..research is a RESULT of who funds it, and organizations receive the current "research" information from... you guessed it- the pharmaceuticals.. 
You don't see much unbiased research - - because - - not many have the money to fund it..


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Actually, when I was getting my first hot flash, I did some digging with my physician. I did find studies that showed increase risks of cancer. I weighed the risk/benefit carefully and opted for no hormones. It is a personal choice, any way you look at it.
> 
> How about we drop the hormone bickering as it is detracting from the original intent of the thread, IMO.


Agreed..
Allison, and anyone who is interested, some of the natural supplements that have helped many of my patients, and friends, are Black Cohosh or Blue Cohosh. Pennyroyal can be helpful too, but dosing must be careful.. If you'd like more info PM me..


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Druydess said:


> In addition, it may behoove one to know.*.
> research is a RESULT of who funds it,*
> and organizations receive the current "research" information from... you guessed it- the pharmaceuticals..
> *You don't see much unbiased research *- - because - - not many have the money to fund it..


Yep again!:?


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Actually, when I was getting my first hot flash, I did some digging with my physician. I did find studies that showed increase risks of cancer. I weighed the risk/benefit carefully and opted for no hormones. It is a personal choice, any way you look at it.
> 
> How about we drop the hormone bickering as it is detracting from the original intent of the thread, IMO.


This. I thought we were on breeding. I get to the last few pages and only see.....an argument over hormones.


On the breeding topic, I think it takes a lot to be a stud...more than just 'the last of his lines!!!' or being born with testicles. 

I have seen some questionable posts from breeders, color, 'rare' blood lines...what does that matter when you're stallion/mare is average (if you're lucky) in conformation and hasn't actually ever done anything except run around while you snap photos?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> I have seen some questionable posts from breeders, color, 'rare' blood lines...what does that matter when you're stallion/mare is average (if you're lucky) in conformation and hasn't actually ever done anything except run around while you snap photos?


Yep :wink:


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

If one has the resources, time, money, has done their research, and are happy with what they have, what or who they breed is really no ones' business. The only person that HAS to be happy with the end result is the owner. 
Haranguing people along the way will serve the opposite purpose, where instead, respect and understanding can open untold doors for those seeking information. Judgement, especially from those not so worldly, is counterproductive. Experience is the best teacher, and that only comes with age..and from those with sincere interest in helping others succeed.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Druydess said:


> If one has the resources, time, money, has done their research, and are happy with what they have, what or who they breed is really no ones' business. The only person that HAS to be happy with the end result is the owner.



Sure, if you plan on keeping every foal you breed...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> Sure, if you plan on keeping every foal you breed...


Then you have the choice not to breed. There is no requirement that you must agree.
Others choose as they will, and it yet remains no ones business, but their own. Period.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Not that my 20 +years in Critical Care, CCU, ICU, Medical/Surgical ICU, etc..in the best, pioneering hospitals all over the East coast, or my Chemo Certifications and Cancer experience, or tending the sawed of breasts of women who took Premarin is any kind of actual expertise..
> Here is one of many articles..
> 
> 
> ...


All fine and good, but you seemed to have missed the point. Some women have no choice - as was clearly pointed out. Almost all medications have side affects and implications, but if you have to take them you have to take them. Again, as a supposed medical "professional", you know this pefectly well, so my assumption is you are just being argumentative. Quoting a study of side affects is not relevant to those that must have the medication - be it Premarin or any other drug.

I am about as anti-medication as they come. I am a strong believer that diet and exercise can accomplish miracles. But once again, there are times when medication is absolutely essential. As I said, you are perfectly aware of that...


ETA: I posted this before I saw the request to return to the thread subject, but the point that medication is not optional for some people needs to be understood. It is NOT always a matter of choice...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Faceman said:


> All fine and good, but you seemed to have missed the point. Some women have no choice - as was clearly pointed out. Almost all medications have side affects and implications, but if you have to take them you have to take them. Again, as a supposed medical "professional", you know this pefectly well, so my assumption is you are just being argumentative. Quoting a study of side affects is not relevant to those that must have the medication - be it Premarin or any other drug.
> 
> I am about as anti-medication as they come. I am a strong believer that diet and exercise can accomplish miracles. But once again, there are times when medication is absolutely essential. As I said, you are perfectly aware of that...


Allison has asked we get back to subject of the thread. If you'd like to debate this in PM's I'll be more than happy to.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Druydess said:


> Then you have the choice not to breed. There is no requirement that you must agree.
> Others choose as they will, and it yet remains no ones business, but their own. Period.


When it's posted online, it becomes everyone's business.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> When it's posted online, it becomes everyone's business.


The we will have to agree to disagree.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

MsBHavin said:


> When it's posted online, it becomes everyone's business.


And I disagree with this statement,..., EVERYONE'S business??
NOT!
Anyone can offer an opinion, but that doesn't make it their 'business'.

Then again MsBHavin, "opinions are like __________, everybody has one",.., LOL!



Druydess said:


> The we will have to agree to disagree.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Hum heres the link Register & Join
> I wondered about it too but Mary shows her QH's there


I got % for mine from the different one. I havn't seen this one, so probably there are 3 out there then? :lol: 

Well... Yes, you can show there. But in my understanding its like being part of the local club: you can show there too, but it doesn't give you anything really (except moral satisfaction of course :wink: ). I mean... I don't see anything bad with it. In fact I plan on joining the local dressage club next year (because I can show in their shows ONLY IF I'm the member), but its just not such a big deal.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Going to agree with MsBHavin. If you post it in a public place it becomes the business of others. You have no control over what happens from there. You don't want opinions? Don't post it online.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

WhoaNow said:


> And I disagree with this statement,..., EVERYONE'S business??
> NOT!
> Anyone can offer an opinion, but that doesn't make it their 'business'.
> 
> Then again MsBHavin, "opinions are like __________, everybody has one",.., LOL!


It is a dangerous game to assume everything goes, especially with the net, but here's a quote worth thinking about..
Each of us has rights to our own decisions, and breeding is one of them..
Erode another's rights at your own expense...

"Any doctrine of group activities that does not recognize individual rights is a doctrine of mob rule or legalized lynching... A nation that violates the rights of its own citizens cannot claim any rights whatsoever. In the issue of rights, as in all moral issues, there can be no double standard." 

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)."

-- Ayn Rand in "Collectivize"

No one's rights can be secured by the violation of the rights of others."

As to opinions:

I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.
Bethania McKenstry

Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.
Charles A. Dana (1819 - 1897)

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

WhoaNow said:


> And I disagree with this statement,..., EVERYONE'S business??
> NOT!
> Anyone can offer an opinion, but that doesn't make it their 'business'.
> 
> Then again MsBHavin, "opinions are like __________, everybody has one",.., LOL!


Anyone confidant in their breeding program would not need reassurance from people online..but then again when they've got sub-par stock...they need reassurance rotfl!


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Going to agree with MsBHavin. If you post it in a public place it becomes the business of others. You have no control over what happens from there. You don't want opinions? Don't post it online.


Your avatar cracks me up!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> When it's posted online, it becomes everyone's business.



Yup again :???:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MsBHavin said:


> Your avatar cracks me up!


^^ How about getting back on topic (as you yourself mentioned just a page back)? 



I think everyone should take a deep breath and calm down. Everyone has a right for own opinion. And if you bring opinion to the public you can expect disagreement (or even critique sometime). There is no need to _*fight *_over that though.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

MsBHavin said:


> Anyone confidant in their breeding program would not need reassurance from people online..


This is an accurate statement and also in keeping with the original topic.

There are many people who just back yard breed indiscrimately and turn out ALL kinds of strange combinations??
I can think of some people on this very forum that I question their logic, or the 'accident' they allowed to happen?

Hopefully *it* will have a forever home:-|

As I posted on the Pet Peeve thread, 'designer breed' horses are a TERRIBLE idea if you have no idea, or are an inexperienced at breeding.
I also really get my shorts in a wad over people who do not PROPERLY confine their stallions,..., and then,.., OPPS!!:shock:
2x breed, awaiting foal? 
But who's my baby daddy?? LOL!


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

WhoaNow said:


> This is an accurate statement and also in keeping with the original topic.
> 
> There are many people who just back yard breed indiscrimately and turn out ALL kinds of strange combinations??
> I can think of some people on this very forum that I question their logic, or the 'accident' they allowed to happen?
> ...




*scratches head* 'gee, I didn't know he could jump that thar field fence! Imma hire a trainer and make 'im a jumper horse!'


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

I believe the best scenario in breeding is to take one's time and do the best research they can to meet their goals. One of the mistakes I see people making is that they project their OWN predilections, mores, personal biases, and world view on other's choices..
I have had 5-6 mares for over 6 years and one stallion for over two, with access and money to use others along the way, and I have not bred ANY of them.
Yet... I have heard every kind of negative comment about MY breeding, all online and from unsolicited sources. This is completely unimportant as the sources are irrelevant by their own above-mentioned protective prejudices.. These are not the type of people that would garner my respect as to breeding opinions. Others, who have good intent, may disagree with my choices or simply not like my horses. I really don't care. If they are respectful and offer intelligent discourse, I will listen openly.
I am not 20-something, needing to win a popularity contest. I have horses I love and believe in and I will do my best for them. Others are irrelevant. I am fairly difficult to impress.

As for breeding, I have some very good and well known breeders in the business whom I rely on. Some are on this forum. Their opinion and advice is what gets my attention.

I will breed as I see fit when the time comes, and those who influence up until then and after, me will have proven worthy of that end.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> When it's posted online, it becomes everyone's business.



I have to disagree somewhat.

It does not become your business, it becomes your INTEREST. Certainly your opportunity to state your opinion but your business..no.

It is no ones business to tell anyone what they can and cannot do.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Spyder said:


> I have to disagree somewhat.
> 
> It does not become your business, it becomes your INTEREST. Certainly your opportunity to state your opinion but your business..no.
> 
> It is no ones business to tell anyone what they can and cannot do.



That may be. However when someone is going to breed sub par animals, with no regard to where they'll end up, or even if there's a market for their foals...that IS everyone's business.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WhoaNow said:


> I also really get my shorts in a wad over people who do not PROPERLY confine their stallions,..., and then,.., OPPS!!:shock:
> 2x breed, awaiting foal?
> But who's my baby daddy?? LOL!


I don't know why it gets your panties in a wadge, it happened to me you know and it is devastating, when you buy a beautifully bred mare, who is scanned and confirmed in foal to your dream stallion, which is why you buy her, it is SICKENING to find that she has lost it and is standing to your own stud.

Once I got over that disappointment then of course I am looking forward to my little mutt foal, well registrable part bred Arab foal, with two registered parents just not of the same breed, if Alto does his usual fine job we will have a stunning little addition to the herd here.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

MsBHavin said:


> That may be. However when someone is going to breed sub par animals, with no regard to where they'll end up, or even if there's a market for their foals...that IS everyone's business.


Nope, still none of your business, in the long run. 

State your opinion, fine. Beat a dead horse, pointless bickering.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I don't know why it gets your panties in a wadge, it happened to me you know and it is devastating, when you buy a beautifully bred mare, who is scanned and confirmed in foal to your dream stallion, which is why you buy her, it is SICKENING to find that she has lost it and is standing to your own stud.
> 
> Once I got over that disappointment then of course I am looking forward to my little mutt foal, well registrable part bred Arab foal, with two registered parents just not of the same breed, if Alto does his usual fine job we will have a stunning little addition to the herd here.


You always have goals for the animals you produce. It's not like you decided one day to buy a stallion and a ton of random mares to breed, because you thought it'd be awesome.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Nope, still none of your business, in the long run.
> 
> State your opinion, fine. Beat a dead horse, pointless bickering.


I am far from beating a dead horse


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I don't know why it gets your panties in a wadge, it happened to me you know and it is devastating,
> when you buy a beautifully bred mare, who is scanned and confirmed in foal to your dream stallion,
> which is why you buy her, it is SICKENING to find that she has lost it and is standing to your own stud.
> 
> ...


This type of 'management practice' goes hand in hand with exactly what MsBHavin has been saying.
I believe it also gets her 'panties in a 'wadge' (LOL).

And I don't believe I mentioned you,..., but now that you bring it up, 
I guess that is exactly your situation, isn't it?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

WhoaNow said:


> This is an accurate statement and also in keeping with the original topic.
> 
> There are many people who just back yard breed indiscrimately and turn out ALL kinds of strange combinations??
> I can think of some people on this very forum that I question their logic, or the 'accident' they allowed to happen?
> ...


Ya know- accidents do happen.. but I think what I've observed is that often, this is acceptable to some, yet the same people point fingers at others for the very same thing, or less. I often wonder how they don't see their own hypocrisy.. No one is perfect, yet it's sad to see people act as if they are and in the process, hurt others..


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> It's not all it's made out to be. I have mine registered FQHR & NFQHA but only so that I can go to those shows to school youngsters before spending more money at breed or sanctioned shows for specific disciplines. There are foundation associations, ranch horse, etc. I'm of the belief that they are for those that can't cut it in the AQHA, NRHA, NCHA, NRCHA. While they are a more fun atmosphere and not political it really won't do much in the way of adding value to a horse. There's honestly more competition at an added money local show than these types of shows. If one was looking to have fun and enjoy a show now and then, they are good for that but if you are looking to add value or promotability to a horse it really doesn't do anymore for a horse than 4-H/open level shows.



So its like the CKC dog reg dogs that cant cut it with the AKC


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> That may be. However when someone is going to breed sub par animals, with no regard to where they'll end up, or even if there's a market for their foals...that IS everyone's business.


Unless that sub par animal beats you in competition, affects your PERSONAL everyday life or affects the quality of YOUR life then if IS NOT your business.:wink:

Your original statement is the thinking of a those that feel they must "set straight" every thing they see and read on the net and around the world because it is your business to do so.:shock:

Those that feel they must "right every wrong" according to themselves have become so judgmental that I seriously wonder what sort of life they have.:-(

I really wonder if these type of people are up to 4 AM in the morning..."just in case someone posts something they disagree with. What a sad life.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Unless that sub par animal beats you in competition, affects your PERSONAL everyday life
> or affects the quality of YOUR life then if IS NOT your business.:wink:
> 
> Your original statement is the thinking of a those that feel they must "set straight" every thing they see and read
> ...


Yep.
Great post:wink:


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Unless that sub par animal beats you in competition, affects your PERSONAL everyday life or affects the quality of YOUR life then if IS NOT your business.:wink:
> 
> Your original statement is the thinking of a those that feel they must "set straight" every thing they see and read on the net and around the world because it is your business to do so.:shock:
> 
> ...


Spyder, I am about as speechless as is possible..
Great post!
Me, and my sub-par Arabians, who have beaten others in competition, Salute You!! :clap: :thumbsup:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spyder said:


> Unless that sub par animal beats you in competition, affects your PERSONAL everyday life or affects the quality of YOUR life then if IS NOT your business.:wink:


I actually gonna argue with you here to the point. For example, if state/county seizes the horses (sometime A LOT, and always in horrible condition), who's paying for the rehab if original owner has no money?

P.S> It's unrelated to anyone on thread.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I actually gonna argue with you here to the point. For example, if state/county seizes the horses (sometime A LOT, and always in horrible condition), who's paying for the rehab if original owner has no money?
> 
> P.S> It's unrelated to anyone on thread.


I think theres 1 shelter here in Ky in Lexington that will take in/seize for the most part there's a select group who will foster them they then rehabilitate the horse and keep it or rehome the horse I'm on that list I help when and where I can.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I think theres 1 shelter here in Ky in Lexington that will take in/seize for the most part there's a select group who will foster them they then rehabilitate the horse and keep it or rehome the horse I'm on that list I help when and where I can.


Yes, but who pays for rehab? If state gets animals I assume state will also pay for them (at least partially). Then they can try to retrieve the money from the original owner, but usually original owner in debt already.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I actually gonna argue with you here to the point. For example, if state/county seizes the horses (sometime A LOT, and always in horrible condition), who's paying for the rehab if original owner has no money?
> 
> P.S> It's unrelated to anyone on thread.


I've noticed in the past KV, it seems to often be the large respected breeders this happens to, due to sheer volume and numbers.
The funds come from different sources, some from Rescues that fund raise, private donations, personal adoption, and taxes, just as those of us without children still pay for school taxes, as well as a variety of other tax allotments that we may have no vested interest in. Liens can be levied against the original owner.
In this particular case, it would become someone else's business IF the animals were abused. Violating the law rescinds the right to choice. Those caring properly for their animals retain their rights, ergo, their freedom to choose, leaving others' noses where they belong..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Druydess said:


> I've noticed in the past KV, it seems to often be the large respected breeders this happens to, due to sheer volume and numbers.
> The funds come from different sources, some from Rescues that fund raise, private donations, personal adoption, and taxes, just as those of us without children still pay for school taxes, as well as a variety of other tax allotments that we may have no vested interest in. Liens can be levied against the original owner.
> In this particular case, it would become someone else's business IF the animals were abused. Violating the law rescinds the right to choice. Those caring properly for their animals retain their rights, ergo, their freedom to choose, leaving others' noses where they belong..


Oh, I'm not even talking about those who _*care *_for own animals. I don't have a problem with such people. All I'm saying some people don't care and breed, or buy, or "rescue" (in short accumulating animals) making others to clean up their mess eventually. That's where it becomes other people business unfortunately. But you can't draw a line anyway, because you can't tell "this is a good owner, that one is the bad owner" beforehand.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Yes, but who pays for rehab? If state gets animals I assume state will also pay for them (at least partially). Then they can try to retrieve the money from the original owner, but usually original owner in debt already.



If it goes to the shelter the tax payers pay but if it goes tot he volunteers then they pay lol so I guess it would still be a tax payer.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> If it goes to the shelter the tax payers pay but if it goes tot he volunteers then they pay lol so I guess it would still be a tax payer.


I was just curious. I do donate to the local horse rescues... So I guess I'm cleaning the mess too...? :lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WhoaNow said:


> This type of 'management practice' goes hand in hand with exactly what MsBHavin has been saying.
> I believe it also gets her 'panties in a 'wadge' (LOL).
> 
> And I don't believe I mentioned you,..., but now that you bring it up,
> I guess that is exactly your situation, isn't it?


No you didn't mention me, and YES is exactly my situation, I thought I just made that clear.

What I don't understand is what is bad management practice in having a safely in foal mare suddenly turn out to be a raving hussy??


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I was just curious. I do donate to the local horse rescues... So I guess I'm cleaning the mess too...? :lol:



I dont donate with money but I do give them quite a few round bales I also help feed when needed.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Oh, I'm not even talking about those who _*care *_for own animals. I don't have a problem with such people. All I'm saying some people don't care and breed, or buy, or "rescue" (in short accumulating animals) making others to clean up their mess eventually. That's where it becomes other people business unfortunately. But you can't draw a line anyway, because you can't tell "this is a good owner, that one is the bad owner" beforehand.


Understood..
It can become hairy when people with good intentions get in over their head.. or don't realize what's required. That's exactly how I ended up with rescues. People didn't intend to fall on hard times, but it does happen..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> No you didn't mention me, and YES is exactly my situation, I thought I just made that clear.
> 
> What I don't understand is what is bad management practice in having a safely in foal mare suddenly turn out to be a raving hussy??


GH, things DO happen. Often not what we expect (and what we want). You just get over it and deal with what you have.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> GH, things DO happen. Often not what we expect (and what we want). You just get over it and deal with what you have.


Esp with this economy its a wonder anyone can afford their horses I'm very fortunate my husband has a great job hopefully I get to take my state boards test in Sept (Ky closes down every summer for July and Aug. ) then I can start working again...second career lol law firms are over an hr away dont want to be that far from home between the kids and critters thats too far away not to mention I have a truck and gas would eat me up.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> GH, things DO happen. Often not what we expect (and what we want). You just get over it and deal with what you have.



Very true, can't change the past, only deal with it and move on


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

GH, what breed is your mare?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

waresbear said:


> GH, what breed is your mare?


There you go:wink:



Golden Horse said:


> I don't know why it gets your panties in a wadge, it happened to me you know and it is devastating, when you buy a beautifully bred mare, who is scanned and confirmed in foal to your dream stallion, which is why you buy her, it is SICKENING to find that she has lost it and is standing to your own stud.
> 
> Once I got over that disappointment then of course I am looking forward to my little mutt foal, well registrable part bred Arab foal, with two registered parents just not of the same breed, if Alto does his usual fine job we will have a stunning little addition to the herd here.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You're gonna make me figure it out from the horses in your barn! I have seen Alto, nice arab, now to hunt down the mare & figure out what the little mutt will be....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sorry, it's Ace the Arab who is the little hussy who lost my (potentially) stunning little pure bred Arab foal, and is now expecting a Haflinger x Arab Baby, to Alto.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

waresbear said:


> You're gonna make me figure it out from the horses in your barn!
> I have seen Alto, nice arab, now to hunt down the mare & figure out what the little mutt will be....


LOL, good question!:mrgreen:

Opps, I just see where GH has answered that question:wink:


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> If it goes to the shelter the tax payers pay but if it goes tot he volunteers then they pay lol so I guess it would still be a tax payer.





Druydess said:


> I've noticed in the past KV, it seems to often be the large respected breeders this happens to,
> due to sheer volume and numbers.
> The funds come from different sources, some from Rescues that fund raise,
> private donations, personal adoption, and taxes, just as those of us without children still pay for school taxes,
> ...


In our area, the tax supported shelters mostly deal with cats, dogs, and small domestic animals.
Our Humane Society is funded by both city taxes, and large donations.

I have been sadly disappointed when I've called different agencies to report livestock/horses that were in trouble:-(.

I had to actually call law enforcement to address 2 starving horses here.
It was the Sheriff's Department who stepped up and helped me, help those horses.
As well, I had to call an equine rescue some 2-3 hours away who were willing (and able) to take those horses in.

Now, there are rescues closer, but they are mostly supported by donations, and tax write offs.
I do support, with an annual donation, an equine rescue, and dog/cat shelter run by a long time family friend.

It's necessary, and worth it to me, as I agree that sometimes (many times) goodhearted people find their means exhausted 
by trying to do the 'right thing'.

As far as indiscrimately breeding, and, as well, 'designer breeding',..., 
I truly don't care for that practice (as I've already 'peeved' about):shock:.
I believe if you're going to own a stallion, he BETTER be in a secure pen,
and you should KNOW what you're doing *first*.
Not 'after the fact':?

I prefer to see someone breed more selectively, as there is a market for well bred, conformationally correct animals, 
that will hold up to the rigorous demands by more avid horse people.

Then again, look at all those 'well bred' halter QHs out there
that are genetic FREAKS, 'over bred' to the point of freakish??!!??:roll:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Unless that sub par animal beats you in competition, affects your PERSONAL everyday life or affects the quality of YOUR life then if IS NOT your business.:wink:
> 
> Your original statement is the thinking of a those that feel they must "set straight" every thing they see and read on the net and around the world because it is your business to do so.:shock:
> 
> ...


 
Spyder,

That is the very best post I have seen in a while!! Sadly, it will likely fall on the deaf ears of the ones who should listen most.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Spyder,
> 
> That is the very best post I have seen in a while!! Sadly, it will likely fall on the deaf ears of the ones who should listen most.


I agree wholeheartedly. Seems the ones with verbal diarrhea have the least self control, the most judgement, and the smallest capability to actually "hear" what others are saying. They get too much enjoyment out of arguing and discrediting others. Cliques such as these really aren't interested in bettering a person's or horse's situation. This isn't just on forums; it exists everywhere, but the anonymity of being safe behind a keyboard emboldens judgmental types bent on disruption and attention-seeking.
Those seeking information about horse breeding, if people were to stay with the OP's original question, would likely be much more amenable to new ideas or well thought out information.
Best we can do is ignore the unhelpful ones, which really annoys them, and encourage those with good information. Fighting with antagonists does absolutely no good as that's their end game.
The Mods do a great job of keeping things on the right track.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Druydess said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. Seems the ones with verbal diarrhea have the least self control, the most judgement, and the smallest capability to actually "hear" what others are saying. They get too much enjoyment out of arguing and discrediting others. Cliques such as these really aren't interested in bettering a person's or horse's situation. This isn't just on forums; it exists everywhere, but the anonymity of being safe behind a keyboard emboldens judgmental types bent on disruption and attention-seeking.
> Those seeking information about horse breeding, if people were to stay with the OP's original question, would likely be much more amenable to new ideas or well thought out information.
> Best we can do is ignore the unhelpful ones, which really annoys them, and encourage those with good information. Fighting with antagonists does absolutely no good as that's their end game.
> The Mods do a great job of keeping things on the right track.



I agree I have decided to ignore if you spat with them it just fuels their fire lifes more pleasant that way.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I feel that the only thing that is everyone's business is if a horse is being abused/starved/completely neglected. 

The rest of the time, it's just the sharing of opinions. Frankly if the horse owner is not seeking opinions, then they should reconsider their desire to share information on the board. 

There are even specific sections of this board where critiquing is discouraged, such as the pics and videos section. If information is shared in the other sections of the board, I would assume that the poster is looking for opinions and a conversation. 

I don't understand when people ask about breeding their horse, receive opinions and then get upset - surely when you ask for opinions, you will receive a range of them, some that agree with your own, and others that do not.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

This. I am completely sick of people who pitch a fit for getting "attacked" when they post completely rediculous things and ASK for opinions or to be critiqued. It's absolutely no different then posting pics of a starved horse or a video of you beating a horse and asking what people think - do you actually expect to get good responses?

People act like posting on online forums is a right and not a privilege. Nobody is making you post, and certainly nobody is making you ask for opinions. I will never understand how people can get so worked up when someone ASKS for the truth and then goes banana sandwich over the answer.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

AlexS said:


> I feel that the only thing that is everyone's business is if a horse is being abused/starved/completely neglected.
> 
> The rest of the time, it's just the sharing of opinions. Frankly if the horse owner is not seeking opinions, then they should reconsider their desire to share information on the board.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think anyone dislikes the sharing of opinions, here. The OP certainly knew the can of worms being opened. It is the WAY these opinions are delivered that people are taking exception to. The hot, personal attacks, on BOTH sides, are simply not going to be taken well. 

Some people here pride themselves in being able to cause as much dissention as they can, trying to "fly under the radar". This is only really appreciated by their close friends, usually. Often this is not shared by the rest of the members.

Just play nice, ALL of you out there.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> I don't think anyone dislikes the sharing of opinions, here. The OP certainly knew the can of worms being opened. It is the WAY these opinions are delivered that people are taking exception to. The hot, personal attacks, on BOTH sides, are simply not going to be taken well.
> 
> Some people here pride themselves in being able to cause as much dissention as they can, trying to "fly under the radar". This is only really appreciated by their close friends, usually. Often this is not shared by the rest of the members.
> 
> Just play nice, ALL of you out there.


This is a good point- delivery is the key to good communication. I believe most people don't have an issue with a differing opinion, after all, it's the only way to expand thought and create new ideas, however, picking at someone or some point over and over akin to a recalcitrant vulture feasting on bones, is plainly ridiculous. Make your point, if one does not agree, or has a differing thought, put on your big girl panties, and move on..

A good rule is, before hitting the send key, think whether you'd say the same thing to someone's face, If not, for fear of well-earned immediate repercussion,then perhaps keeping your moth in the shut position is the best choice. Whomever blithely insists they would say some of the things posted on this board to someone's face- -well, I'd check to see if they had any teeth left..


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> I don't think anyone dislikes the sharing of opinions, here. The OP certainly knew the can of worms being opened. It is the WAY these opinions are delivered that people are taking exception to. The hot, personal attacks, on BOTH sides, are simply not going to be taken well.
> 
> Some people here pride themselves in being able to cause as much dissention as they can, trying to "fly under the radar". This is only really appreciated by their close friends, usually. Often this is not shared by the rest of the members.
> 
> Just play nice, ALL of you out there.


Ha you know what they say about opinions....everyone has them and imo the world would be pretty dang dull but the way you express that should be in a civil manner no I have not followed my own thought I let my anger get the best of me I let something that happened a week ago build up and then when it happened again I had had enough now in the future I plan to not engage in it is there a way to block messages from certain people that would make it easier to do not having to see anything from them. I apologize for my comments.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I plan to not engage in it is there a way to block messages from certain people that would make it easier to do not having to see anything from them. I apologize for my comments.


I've just decided to make my life entirely more pleasant by blocking some people.

Go to your profile page, on the left hand side you will see an option to update ignore list, click the link and you get to choose those people you no longer wish to see.

Now I'll sit back and see if it works.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The whole byb of horses, and large breeders churning out too many horses, has created a glut of unwanted horses which is kind of following the trajectory of the cat and dog overpopulation and random breeding. It used to be much worse but thoughtful campaings to encourage sterilzation of pets made a real dent in the tragic numbers of pets that ended up euthanized in shelters.
There was a time when people resented being told to spay or nueter their pets and got ****ed off at their "rights" being tromped on. But the effectiveness of the campaign rested upon making people aware that it was the animals who suffered the most from this , and if you loved animals, you would do the right thing. you would CHOOSE to do the right thing.

The horse world is looking at a somewhat similar situation, especially with the banning of slaughter in the USA. Now, unwanted horses suffer for years. But that's another thread.

I am just saying that sometimes it does take people gently getting into other people's business, and I mean gently, to affect the change of mind and heart that will be required for the animal's wellfare. But it is called "persuasion" and it's not based on blame.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I've just decided to make my life entirely more pleasant by blocking some people.
> 
> Go to your profile page, on the left hand side you will see an option to update ignore list, click the link and you get to choose those people you no longer wish to see.
> 
> Now I'll sit back and see if it works.



I found it right after I posted and updated it LOL been fighting a migraine all day so I am hoping on and off the computer.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I found it right after I posted and updated it LOL been fighting a migraine all day so I am hoping on and off the computer.



But you read my post and I can read yours, so we are still talking, however the mute button mercifully works on others:wink:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I found it right after I posted and updated it LOL been fighting a migraine all day so I am hoping on and off the computer.


Just remember that the ignore button does not stop you from seeing the "ignored" if they are quoted in another post.

I have no one on ignore. I simply have the ability to ignore them entirely on my own.

I also respond to anyone in the same manner, whether I have been in disagreement with them before or not, for they can say something I am comfortable with.

However for those that get all worked up over certain people or subjects then yes the ignore button may be your best friend.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> But you read my post and I can read yours, so we are still talking, however the mute button mercifully works on others:wink:


Well I like you lol from what I've read imo your good people so unless you ignore me your stuck with me hehe


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Just remember that the ignore button does not stop you from seeing the "ignored" if they are quoted in another post.
> 
> I have no one on ignore. I simply have the ability to ignore them entirely on my own.
> 
> ...


Yea I know all this I normally have great restraint but this is me wanting peace and wanting to continue to be a part of this forum I kinda like it here...alot


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Yea I know all this I normally have great restraint but this is me wanting peace and wanting to continue to be a part of this forum I kinda like it here...alot


Me to :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> and is now expecting a Haflinger x Arab Baby, to Alto.


I'm very curious to see the mix. I've seen/ridden quarabs and they were very nice horses (arab-type head/body (more light) coupled with qh laid back attitude), but I doubt I've seen haffy/arab mix before (although I have to say we don't have too many haflingers around here).


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I'm very curious to see the mix. I've seen/ridden quarabs and they were very nice horses (arab-type head/body (more light) coupled with qh laid back attitude), but I doubt I've seen haffy/arab mix before (although I have to say we don't have too many haflingers around here).


I'm curious to see it too; I'll bet it'll be adorable!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I'm very curious to see the mix. I've seen/ridden quarabs and they were very nice horses (arab-type head/body (more light) coupled with qh laid back attitude), but I doubt I've seen haffy/arab mix before (although I have to say we don't have too many haflingers around here).


Well every Haflinger you look at is carrying a % of Arab blood, like many many breeds Arab blood was introduced to improve the Haflinger.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Is there lots of love going around? Scary!! LOL!


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Poor Kitty.. 

(Too cute)


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Druydess said:


> I'm curious to see it too; I'll bet it'll be adorable!


Me too. GH would you please go tell Ace that it's my guess day and she better get to it!!!!! :lol:


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

I know someone who has a half Halfinger/Arab cross  They are in Western PA....his barn name is Hemmie  I will ask for pics.

Denise Gainey


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

HGEsquire said:


> I know someone who has a half Halfinger/Arab cross  They are in Western PA....his barn name is Hemmie  I will ask for pics.
> 
> Denise Gainey


Hey Denise- good to see you here!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

HGEsquire said:


> I know someone who has a half Halfinger/Arab cross  They are in Western PA....his barn name is Hemmie  I will ask for pics.
> 
> Denise Gainey


Would that be because he breaks down a lot?

Sorry...Dodge joke...:lol:


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

hahaha No am thinking for a different reason but LOVE the joke!!!

Denise Gainey


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Would that be because he breaks down a lot?
> 
> Sorry...Dodge joke...:lol:



LOL love it


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> Well every Haflinger you look at is carrying a % of Arab blood, like many many breeds Arab blood was introduced to improve the Haflinger.


Really? Never knew! Well... Something new to learn every day.


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

Faceman said:


> In most cases you are correct...the same could be said about people who unnecessarily take pain pills or anti-depressants, or supposedly have "fybromyalgia" or "thyroid problems". I am an anti pill-popper myself and am disgusted by people that pop pills every time they stub their toe.


For some strange reason I was affronted by this post FM. I have a VERY underactive thyroid and fight the symptoms of it every day. I hate taking pills but if that's what it takes to make me "normal" i'll take as many as my endocronologist prescribes. It's a constant battle of tweaking my meds, blood tests every two months to see where i'm at until we "get the right dose", it's not a "mystery" disease, most obese people tout the "thyroid" horn because they like to eat mcdonalds and other fast food and are too lazy to get off thier butts and work it off. Look up hypothyroidism and see some of the effects it causes, infertility, hair loss, weight gain, dry patchy skin, depression to name a few. Trust me it's not all fun and games. 

From someone who was 115 pounds soaking wet to 160 pounds in a few years watching what I eat constantly, training, riding, working harder and longer hours on my feet and dropping 1 pound in a month, **** straight i'll take those pills to get me back to "normal" weight and "normal" mind.  -endrant- lol 

oh and if I misinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance!:hide:


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

Katze said:


> For some strange reason I was affronted by this post FM. I have a VERY underactive thyroid and fight the symptoms of it every day. I hate taking pills but if that's what it takes to make me "normal" i'll take as many as my endocronologist prescribes. It's a constant battle of tweaking my meds, blood tests every two months to see where i'm at until we "get the right dose", it's not a "mystery" disease, most obese people tout the "thyroid" horn because they like to eat mcdonalds and other fast food and are too lazy to get off thier butts and work it off. Look up hypothyroidism and see some of the effects it causes, infertility, hair loss, weight gain, dry patchy skin, depression to name a few. Trust me it's not all fun and games.
> 
> *From someone who was 115 pounds soaking wet to 160 pounds in a few years* watching what I eat constantly, training, riding, working harder and longer hours on my feet and dropping 1 pound in a month, **** straight i'll take those pills to get me back to "normal" weight and "normal" mind.  -endrant- lol
> 
> oh and if I misinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance!:hide:


This post is *TOTALLY* in the incorrect thread I am sure however I *MUST* comment. I too have this problem, have had it since my late 20's and have just recently did the *115lb to 160lb* thing  Just wanted to share you are *NOT* alone....back to regulary scheduled programming.

Denise Gainey


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Katze said:


> For some strange reason I was affronted by this post FM. I have a VERY underactive thyroid and fight the symptoms of it every day. I hate taking pills but if that's what it takes to make me "normal" i'll take as many as my endocronologist prescribes. It's a constant battle of tweaking my meds, blood tests every two months to see where i'm at until we "get the right dose", it's not a "mystery" disease, most obese people tout the "thyroid" horn because they like to eat mcdonalds and other fast food and are too lazy to get off thier butts and work it off. Look up hypothyroidism and see some of the effects it causes, infertility, hair loss, weight gain, dry patchy skin, depression to name a few. Trust me it's not all fun and games.
> 
> From someone who was 115 pounds soaking wet to 160 pounds in a few years watching what I eat constantly, training, riding, working harder and longer hours on my feet and dropping 1 pound in a month, **** straight i'll take those pills to get me back to "normal" weight and "normal" mind.  -endrant- lol
> 
> oh and if I misinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance!:hide:


You didn't misinterpret it, you just didn't read it in its entirety - or just glossed over it and picked out what caught your eye...otherwise you wouldn't have been offended....


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I agree that there are many irresponsible breeders out there. There are too many horses for the homes that exist and some end up going to slaughter and this breaks my heart. But if we step back and look at the whole situation from a biological point of view, in any species, horses, man, etc. diversity makes a species stronger. If only horses that fit certain breed standards are bred, this diversity will be lost. If some odd disease were to go through that only killed a narrow portion of the population, these extra horses would survive. Nature always provides extra organisms so that there will be some left in a major kill off. Breeding weak, sickly, lame horses is stupid. But if somebody breeds their mustang to a quarter horse or makes some other cross, and then they provide it a good home, why should I judge them? 

I will say that if I see a farm with starved out horses, I will go home immediately and report them to the department of agriculture. I am the bain of existance to people who neglect their horses, so don't think I don't believe in horse welfare.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't post much at all anymore but just as a side note, my grandmother and cousin went to New Holland three weeks ago. The prices were way down, and sane, sound broke horses with papers were going for less than $500. Crosses and mutts were going for less than $200. My cousin bought a grade QH yearling colt for $75 in a private sale. He went through the sale for $35, she went and found who bought him and re-bought him. He has excellent conformation, and was definitely someones forever baby at one point. My grandmother bought a cute little registered appaloosa filly as well for $75. Nothing special in her papers, but she's also decently put together and was also someones baby. Please people, do your homework. Breed for something marketable even if you plan on keeping it. Life happens.

Sorry for WOT. I'm on my phone and slightly lazy today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brighteyes08 (Jan 20, 2010)

ANYWAY back on topic. 

BYB is my favorite topic! I don't really know why some people get so offensive? Maybe because they do it themselves? I can tell you exactly why breeding of fugly, ill conformed equines occurs.. because humans are either greedy, irresponsible, stupid or all of the above. 

Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I'm not saying that of someone owns a mutt that they got for $200 should be condemned. If you gave one of them a loving home then kudos to you! Just don't breed it. I am also not saying that every horse bred needs to have fabulous blood lines and be registered, though that would defiantly help, then you know your getting something of quality, and your improving their chance of having a good life. 

I own an App, I've been around an App breeding farm so this next story of a BYB really pushes my buttons.. This person I have been acquainted with has a Appaloosa/newf/whatever else stallion that has a huge neck, upright shoulder, terrible hind, BUT WAIT, its got lots of color!.. she also has a couple other Newf/clyde/QH/whatever mares.. She is irresponsible enough to have her horses in together, and in result? well over the years her mares, and other peoples mares have popped out a bunch of foals! but oh what pretty colored foals, who cares about conformation? what do you think the chances of these foals have finding good forever home have against a foal with a proven sire, from a knowledgeable breeder? I'm not saying that this is the way it always is, because nothing is ever black and white. (except maybe paints, lol)


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

No, no drama. It sounded like you missed what he put in relation to slow twitch fibers, and fast twitch fibers.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Funny the turns this thread has taken ha maybe we need a thread for venting or one for controversial topics lol


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> What I _did_ see w.



What I have seen over the last 4-5 pages are arguments that are going around in circles with some interesting comments interspersed that are going to waste and totally forgotten BECAUSE they don't belong on this thread.

The original subject has gone so far off topic that it has become a monotonous haggling over which is the oldest breed.

You know what...I really don't care but I know others may and if they looked in the breeds section they will NOT find this information there.

Why?

Because the drama created by a few members here are haggling over it on a thread that originally has nothing to do with the history of certain pure breeds.

Maybe the ADMIN can remove these pages and reset them up as a new thread in the appropriate section or someone set up a new thread there.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Ha they also say the worlds gonna end in 2012 too lol I dont believe everything I read these days.


True (about the end of the world in 2012). :wink: However what I read (and posted) was based on scientific research (quite lengthy one BTW), not just blah-blah somewhere on wiki. I'd be happy to post, but it's in a different language (and I feel too lazy to translate as it's not always easy).

_*With that being said I think this thread is being off-track for quite a long time and we had enough drama. So how about taking a deep breath and getting back to the original question "Why are YOU breeding?"*_

I do like the suggestion about opening new thread on most pure(?)/old breed(s). May be someone want to take an initiative to start it? Then we could move part of the discussion there to continue. 

I'm not breeding, BTW, so don't even qualify for this thread...


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Done. *smile*


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/history-pure-breeds-95323/#post1140138


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> _*With that being said I think this thread is being off-track for quite a long time and we had enough drama. So how about taking a deep breath and getting back to the original question "Why are YOU breeding?"*_
> 
> I do like the suggestion about opening new thread on most pure(?)/old breed(s). May be someone want to take an initiative to start it? Then we could move part of the discussion there to continue.



Mike looked at this idea this morning and said he is going to split the thread when he gets back. He said to stay on the history idea so that everything after my post 297 can all be moved as one "history" thread to the Breeds section. 

His posts were set to delete after he left.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> True (about the end of the world in 2012). :wink: However what I read (and posted) was based on scientific research (quite lengthy one BTW), not just blah-blah somewhere on wiki. I'd be happy to post, but it's in a different language (and I feel too lazy to translate as it's not always easy).
> 
> _*With that being said I think this thread is being off-track for quite a long time and we had enough drama. So how about taking a deep breath and getting back to the original question "Why are YOU breeding?"*_
> 
> ...


This is true. I plan on breeding my filly next year so I hope the world doesnt end lol


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> True (about the end of the world in 2012). :wink: However what I read (and posted) was based on scientific research (quite lengthy one BTW), not just blah-blah somewhere on wiki. I'd be happy to post, but it's in a different language (and I feel too lazy to translate as it's not always easy).
> 
> _*With that being said I think this thread is being off-track for quite a long time and we had enough drama. So how about taking a deep breath and getting back to the original question "Why are YOU breeding?"*_
> 
> ...


Great idea.. :wink:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

This really could be kept as one thread.
Question: why are you breeding?
Answer: to get better crosses.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

It seems that a deep planted feud is still going on, far outpacing this simple thread. I wish I could send everyone participating, just for the sake of arguing, to their corners in a time out!! Folks, this is just becoming too tiresome....


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Just got in from feeding and working with my horses no better way to clear ones head I will say victory with Bourbon as she let me clean her front feet back feet I was able to pick up and set down on my own baby steps baby steps only thing is is she trusts no one but me the people I bought her from must have done a number on her to get her in a halter and lead.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

corinowalk said:


> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/history-pure-breeds-95323/#post1140138


Thank you, Cori! I gonna move part of the discussion there then (just have to go through to sort it out). 

Folks, if you want to continue, please do in new thread (after I'm done)!


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Thank you, Cori! I gonna move part of the discussion there then (just have to go through to sort it out).
> 
> Folks, if you want to continue, please do in new thread (after I'm done)!


Great idea- look forward to it! Thank you..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

OK, ladies and gentlemen, I moved all (or at least the majority) of the discussion about the specific breeds to http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/history-pure-breeds-95323/ . Please, enjoy!


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