# Please critique 7 year-old TB and recommend a sport for us



## Monkey (Dec 26, 2013)

Sorry, the vertical photo posted sideways, and I can't figure out how to rotate it....


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Starting with the feet... I see high/low pathology, and I seriously doubt this was caused by a fever. More likely to be the work of a bad farrier. The simpler explanation is the more plausible, particularly in cases like this. A good farrier will be able to correct it to some degree even if it WAS caused by some random fever, and many, many horses do just fine with mild club feet. 

I don't see a steep croup when she's standing square. She actually has quite a correct hind end, particularly for jumping, though her LS joint could stand to be a little farther back and I'd like to see a rounder stifle. 

Her back isn't outside the realm of reasonable. It's a tiny bit long because of her LS placement but shouldn't affect her.

Functionally, she is a little downhill (not butt high, it comes from her highish point of rump and lowish neck set). She has a nice shoulder and I like the shape of her neck and the way it meets her head. Attractive, feminine head under the fluff. Good straight front legs. The feet are.... not good. But I already talked about that, and like I said a good farrier can do a lot about it if you're ready and able to pay for the corrective work that needs to be done.

She is a sound-looking, functional horse who should be able to do most things with the right training and attitude. The one thing no horseperson can judge from a photo is the horse's heart. Find what she likes, and you'll find what she'll be best at.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

She is very fine boned which would be my concern at her being able to hold up to a demanding discipline like endurance. I don't see a long back at all, just a long butt but I don't know if that has an effect on performance.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think her worst fault is bad farriery.

I dont' see any issue with position of LS joint at all.

yeah, a bit fineboned.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Agree with most of the others - I don't think her croup is steep, but there is a mis-match between croup and shoulder angle. The shoulder is a bit steep which could limit her jumping ability. Nothing I see is limiting for lower level sports, but a very large horse is unlikely to be as efficient for endurance. The one concern I have is her hooves, as others have said. To me the worst looking hoof is the right front. The left front may have a contracted heel, but unless that's from a deep central sulcus infection it would rarely affect the horse's soundness. Club hooves are often either started when the horse is a foal, or they can develop from an injury to the heel where the horse doesn't weight it for awhile. It's possible the horse developed it after a fever if the fever caused laminitis. The right front is more likely to have problems with thin sole and coffin bone out of place due to the long toe and low heels.

If you want the horse to do something requiring a lot of bending like dressage, a high/low hoof to this degree will present a challenge. The right shoulder is going to be larger because that low hoof sits lower to the ground and if you look at the horse from the front you will see the left knee sits higher. Because the right hoof is lower, more of the weight is on that leg/shoulder and it over develops that right shoulder. This means the horse will have difficulty bending to the left, away from the larger/tighter shoulder. To correct the muscle development requires a lot of work including getting the hooves more even in height, lots of bending/stretching to loosen the larger shoulder and more work that loads the smaller shoulder to develop it. Even then the horse might always have a bit of unbalance, and sometimes this affects saddle fit too if the shoulder muscle comes back under the saddle and makes it uneven.

For straight work and jumping you will not see as much of a problem, but the horse might have difficulty picking up the left lead and following straight lines.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing <3


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its hard to tell how bad the club foot is because all of her feet need some serious attention
I have ridden a horse that had a bad club foot that had some good corrective shoeing but he was still really weird cantering on the right lead in one direction - he could do it but he didn't feel right. It hadn't stopped him winning a lot of rail classes though
I don't think the croups steep in any worrying sense
She's fine boned, most TB's are fine boned, it doesn't stop them eventing, racing, in the UK hunting and racing over fences on sometimes awful ground conditions so no reason why this one can't do endurance if she's otherwise sound. Arabians are fine boned, they're still the 'go too' horse for endurance


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I kind of have to disagree with the "Arabians are fine boned" part. maybe some of the show ones are. but, if you look at the canons on them, the hoof size, knee size, in proportion to their overall weight, they are not fine boned, in general. some of the Polish style are really solid legged.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The British Crabbet bred Arabians tended to be sturdier but when we came here and I rode at a local show barn I was amazed at how narrow and spindly legged most of them were. They were all really quite 'lean' but if they'd been on the plumper side they would have looked very out of proportion with their limbs
If this mare was competition fit I don't think her legs would look out of sync with her body mass


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jaydee said:


> If this mare was competition fit I don't think her legs would look out of sync with her body mass


Agree.
There are many references on Arabian sites and in books about them having especially dense bones, which means they might look finer boned sometimes but still are strong and will hold up to distance riding. I'd avoid buying any horse that appeared to have very fine bones, but when I see an Arab with heavy bone I assume he will hold up to about anything. 

(Somewhat off topic)
Thoroughbreds are also genetically supposed to have dense bones but I've read studies that seem to say that overly strenuous exercise when a horse is growing can cause bone to thicken too quickly from the concussive exercise which means the bone has more volume but is less dense and more prone to fracture. 

Tendons also do not seem to develop as well when a horse is growing but on stall rest with daily sprinting exercise versus slower continuous exercise during turnout. Tendons seem to strengthen by developing smaller fibers over time which seems to require more continuous movement.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100207/


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that the feet are a concern, and would like to see better pictures of them, to see how much is due to neglect and poor trimming, and how much pathology
Definately right foot is long toe, under run heel, but hard to tell from those pictures if left is a true club foot, and if it is,appears fairly low grade. It is the under run foot that often becomes the problem, far as soundness.
Anyway, I would get the feet trimmed ,evaluated, and then assess the rest of the horse, because if the feet are not sound, rest does not matter!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is WAY off topic, but the arab I used to ride was a daughter of this famous Polish Arabian Stud: Gdansk

plenty good bone!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

gottatrot said:


> Agree.
> (Somewhat off topic)
> Thoroughbreds are also genetically supposed to have dense bones but I've read studies that seem to say that overly strenuous exercise when a horse is growing can cause bone to thicken too quickly from the concussive exercise which means the bone has more volume but is less dense and more prone to fracture.
> 
> ...


 I don't think it is off topic really in a critique of TB's that are OTTB's that have been kept stabled/stalled for the most of their lives. If they go into racing as rising 2 year olds and then spend most of their growing years with their only exercise being training sessions plus the fact that they're mostly running in one direction I would think that they're likely to have a lot more leg problems than the same horse that's spent most of its life outside and wasn't started in more strenuous work until it was 4 or 5 years old and had been built up gradually towards that.


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## Monkey (Dec 26, 2013)

The conformation forum is one of my favorites because there's such a wealth of knowledge here! Thank you for setting me straight about her croup and being fine boned. I also talked to my vet and I've decided not to take this mare. As sweet as her personality is, the hooves (and associated bio-mechanical issues) concern me. I already have one gimpy horse that I'm easing in to retirement because of advancing arthritis (now walk/trot on the flat only), so the second horse I get would need to be my sound, sane, "do it all" horse. While this mare very well could be that with some corrective work, it's too big a risk for me to take right now.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with others, shes nice looking. Not really long backed. Maybe a bit pointy in the SI/tuber sacrale area - maybe get her looked at by a vet chiro. 

The becoming clubbed from a fever is an... interesting assumption! Various reasons for hooves to become clubbed, but when its only one (common) it is usually a body issue/imbalance, not due to bad farriery. So *with the help of a vet chiro or other bodyworker*, in conjunction with good farrier, its possible it could be improved/fixed, but quite possibly not, esp at 7yo, and a farrier should NOT attempt to just correct it with trimming alone.

But it doesnt look terribly clubbed, & as others have said, feet all in dire need of good farriery. After theyre in shape, may look less issue still. And a severe club can cause difficulties but a mild-moderate even not necessarily at all, unless youre aiming for an elite athlete/dressage star!

If u want hoof critique see link in signature below n post to hoofcare section.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I don't think it is off topic really in a critique of TB's that are OTTB's that have been kept stabled/stalled for the most of their lives. If they go into racing as rising 2 year olds and then spend most of their growing years with their only exercise being training sessions plus the fact that they're mostly running in one direction I would think that they're likely to have a lot more leg problems than the same horse that's spent most of its life outside and wasn't started in more strenuous work until it was 4 or 5 years old and had been built up gradually towards that.


Outside of individual bad backyard race breeders, _all_ race-bred Thoroughbreds live outside until they start training. Even the yearlings being prepped for auctions spend a good 12 hours outside. Once they're at the track, that's a different story. However the common practice and belief is that racehorses _have_ to grow up in a field, to build competitive drive and social skills. You will never see a bottle-raised racehorse because of this.

@gottatrot In the years since that study the Equine Injury Database has sprung up and has disproven that running 2yos increases risk of complex fracture/breakdown. 2yos are actually the least likely of all to breakdown, and in general horses that start at 2 are less likely to breakdown than horses that get in the gate later on.
The microfractures sustained by 2yos while galloping at race speed, actually seem to build up _good_ density and make the horses less likely to breakdown. Here is a solid article, Dr. Parkin has published more before and since but this one covers the jist of the matter:
Racehorse deaths spur equine database research, safety drive | Newsday

Since the EID has been implemented there has been a 23% drop in racehorse deaths:
Equine Fatality Rate Declines for Fourth Straight Year | BloodHorse.com

Anyway OP, sorry for going OT, but I really quite like that mare. As has been said, better farrier work should clean her right up. I know you said you're going to pass, but I'd keep in mind that you can never know the hoof history of any horse. I'd still X-ray her.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

EliRose said:


> @gottatrot In the years since that study the Equine Injury Database has sprung up and has disproven that running 2yos increases risk of complex fracture/breakdown. 2yos are actually the least likely of all to breakdown, and in general horses that start at 2 are less likely to breakdown than horses that get in the gate later on.
> The microfractures sustained by 2yos while galloping at race speed, actually seem to build up _good_ density and make the horses less likely to breakdown. Here is a solid article, Dr. Parkin has published more before and since but this one covers the jist of the matter:
> Racehorse deaths spur equine database research, safety drive | Newsday


Hmm, so then just racing in general makes a horse more prone to injuries and therefore more likely to have more injuries at a younger age which makes them more predisposed to a fatal injury when running? 

It seems a difficult argument to make that microfractures can be healthy. Until the microfractures do heal, they would make a horse more predisposed to injury.
I'm not positive that part of their data is correct. There is a lot of scientific evidence that bones previously fractured (or microfractured) are no weaker but also no stronger than other bones. Yet while healing they are more at risk for worsening injury.

While it seems a horse that begins racing slightly older is more likely to be injured, all race horses seem more likely to be injured than other horses, at a young age.
Although I look frequently at OTTB sites, so many of these young horses have had serious injuries already as well as bad hooves. Which makes me very hesitant to buy one although I'd like to own one that had never been injured.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

EliRose said:


> Outside of individual bad backyard race breeders, _all_ race-bred Thoroughbreds live outside until they start training. Even the yearlings being prepped for auctions spend a good 12 hours outside


Considering 'outside' often means a small, rather cushy paddock, where they're not motivated to do a heap of exercise, and considering training often starts around 18mo, that's not necessarily saying much. And as bone density etc. is largely from frequent aerobic exercise, and is gained or lost at any age, once they're in training, where they may stand around in stables 23hrs a day, regardless of the age they start that, it's not good for them.



> @*gottatrot* In the years since that study the Equine Injury Database has sprung up and has disproven that running 2yos increases risk of complex fracture/breakdown. 2yos are actually the least likely of all to breakdown, and in general horses that start at 2 are less likely to breakdown than horses that get in the gate later on.
> The microfractures sustained by 2yos while galloping at race speed, actually seem to build up _good_ density and make the horses less likely to breakdown.


I'd like to see those studies. It sounds like, horses that start racing at 2yo are stronger & sounder than those started later. But what of those started later - have they been just left 'turned out' in a nice paddock until then? Have they done a lot or a little work? Certainly regular exercise from a young age is important, and so if they don't get exercised until they're in training...

And it's not all about bone density, but probably more to the point, growth plates aren't all 'closed' by that age - some not till around 6yo. As for stats, sooo many young horses are broken (down) before they're even mature over here. It is a rare thing for a racehorse to be still going strong by 8-10yo. And yet, in places like Ireland, where it's common to start them a lot later(but with exercise & fitting work early), it's not that uncommon for them still to be racing at that age, sounder through the back, etc.

While any bone fracture, 'micro' or otherwise, will calcify around the break when healing, making a larger bone mass in that area, until it's properly healed at least, I don't know if you can reasonably say this is good for the horse. Let alone if it's damaged growth plates that are what has ossified.


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