# Good Hand Gun To Trail Ride With



## Irish Wake

Hi What is the best hand gun to carry while trail riding. We often go out for 6-8 hours in the National Forests and WMA's.
Thanks
Randy


----------



## walkinthewalk

From a 5'2" female point-of-view, that I can quickly draw the gun up and be dead accurate:

.38 snub with hollow points.

Granted it's only a five shot revolver but, I can still "hit the heart" target practicing. If I can't get someone in five shots, I'm just going to throw up my hands and say "have at it"

IMHO, you want something you can easily carry on your person and that doesn't take an Act of Congress to quickly draw up and be ready to pull the trigger.


----------



## Dustbunny

walkinthewalk said:


> Granted it's only a five shot revolver but, I can still "hit the heart" target practicing. If I can't get someone in five shots, I'm just going to throw up my hands and say "have at it"


Thanks for the morning laugh!!!!!! :lol:

I think one thing to consider is what sort of hazard you are likely to encounter. In Montana it might be bears...really big cranky ones. Some parts of the country have those nasty wild hogs.
I wouldn't want to shoot anything unless absolutely necessary but it would be good to have the fire power needed for the occasion.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

I load hollow points and snake shot alternatively for the reason above: cougar, bear and rattlesnake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bsms

Depends...how good are you with a gun? How much do you want to spend? Do you want to carry concealed or open? Are you more worried about people or bears?

For open carry outside of grizzly country, I like my Ruger Vaquero Montado in 357...but I like single actions and this gun fits my hand well. For self defense against a human, concealed, I might go with a Ruger LCP, or a good 22 LR revolver:


----------



## futuredoctor

I like the glock 19.


----------



## smrobs

I have a Taurus (though I'm looking to trade in for a glock when I've got the money) 24/7 pro carry that I carry with me. It's a .40 and I usually keep it loaded with hollowpoints unless I'm going out to practice. Around here, there aren't many non-human predators, but I have killed a few rattlers with it.

What I like is that it's got a 12 round magazine...and a 15 round spare mag. I kind of have the same thinking as Walkin regarding the number of shots. If something can walk through 12-25 rounds from a .40, then maybe they deserve to get me LOL.


----------



## its lbs not miles

Since I don't carry a hand gun while riding. Use to carry rifles and shotguns years ago, but never found a real use for a handgun :lol:.
Found that a 20" double barreled 12 ga more than took care of anything I could possibly encounter (including deer when in season :lol. Of course your only options are a scabbard or to sling it (sling giving you the option of it on your person or your saddle)
Today I don't take anything (although I'm thinking of getting a tradition recurve bow and move to mounted archery). Decided I'd give the ears of my more recent horses a break :lol: so no more firearms. Although today, with the popularity of mounted shooting competitions, they have ear plugs for horses which is certainly more than we had back when I use to hunt mounted (although I don't think I'd have used them while out riding the roads and woods to hunt so it wouldn't have mattered).

Anyway, for those in love the Glock (even though I prefer revolvers) I'd recommend the CZ 75 over the Glock. And if you want the compact Glock go with the CZ 75 P07 Duty (the standard mag holds 16, so you're 1 up on the Glock there too). With both clips and starting with one in the chamber you'll have 33 rounds (if you honestly need that many so you can send a stream of lead down range.....and scare the poop out of your horse and anything else within 25 yards.....even if you miss :rofl. Also has enough weight to it that you can go through 100 rounds and your hand doesn't feel beat up when you finish.


----------



## TheOtherHorse

*Ruger LCP .380*

For concealed carry on a small framed person, I love my .380 Ruger LCP. I use a Cross Breed holster, which is very comfy and stays put in my tights waistband, even riding fast long endurance miles. It is very light weight and small, I don't even notice its there most of the time.


----------



## jamesqf

I dunno... Judging from the way our horses reacted the time some folks started target shooting on the other side of a meadow from the track we were riding, I'd suggest working to get them used to shooting first, otherwise your first shot might send you flying.

Don't have any recommendations myself, as I've never felt any need for one. My usual riding buddy carries an older S&W .38 revolver (I think, never looked that closely). A couple of other women we ride with from time to time were recently talking up Glocks.


----------



## gunslinger

While riding in the Cherokee National Forest I like the nostalgia of a western rig, a nice leather gun belt and holster and carry a Ruger Vaquero in .44 mag.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

I carry a Taurus Ultra Lite .38 snub nose. Its in a plastic holster that has a button release. Its perfect for me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fort fireman

asking what kind of gun is kind of like asking which truck should I get.:lol: It is all based on what your needs are. Will it be a concealed carry gun, open carry gun, self defense against 2 legged or 4 legged predators? stuff like that. Answer those questions and that will narrow down your options. I will say this and it is totally my opinion. With horses I like a single action revolver. (cowboy gun) the reason is two fold. 
1. They are just reall cool guns and go well with horses like gunslinger stated. Nostalgia.
2. is a funtional thing. if your horse is not all that used to guns firing it may react adversely to the gun shot. It may spook and the natural reaction of most people is to tense up. Now your symathatic nervous system causes tension throughout your body, including your trigger finger that may still be on the trigger. Now with a single action revolver the gun will not fire again until you physically pull the hammer back. As opposed to a semi auto or and double action revovler. With those you very well could have a second round go off that was unintended and uncontroled and causes even more reaction from your horse. Just a little food for thought on the double action, semi auto, single action front.

This is what i carry if out riding( and not often) but it is totally because I like old timey(cowboy) stuff. It's an 1858 remington new army. Cap and ball. I wear it cross draw and it sts pretty well for how big it is.


----------



## jamesqf

Fort fireman said:


> With those you very well could have a second round go off that was unintended and uncontroled and causes even more reaction from your horse. Just a little food for thought on the double action, semi auto, single action front.


Very good point.

I also have to wonder how many of those who carry have actually practiced 1) shooting it; and 2) from horseback. And if you haven't... Well, would you put a new rider on your horse, and send him up a mountainside?


----------



## Irish Wake

Fort fireman said:


> asking what kind of gun is kind of like asking which truck should I get.:lol: It is all based on what your needs are. Will it be a concealed carry gun, open carry gun, self defense against 2 legged or 4 legged predators? stuff like that. Answer those questions and that will narrow down your options. I will say this and it is totally my opinion. With horses I like a single action revolver. (cowboy gun) the reason is two fold.
> 1. They are just reall cool guns and go well with horses like gunslinger stated. Nostalgia.
> 2. is a funtional thing. if your horse is not all that used to guns firing it may react adversely to the gun shot. It may spook and the natural reaction of most people is to tense up. Now your symathatic nervous system causes tension throughout your body, including your trigger finger that may still be on the trigger. Now with a single action revolver the gun will not fire again until you physically pull the hammer back. As opposed to a semi auto or and double action revovler. With those you very well could have a second round go off that was unintended and uncontroled and causes even more reaction from your horse. Just a little food for thought on the double action, semi auto, single action front.
> 
> This is what i carry if out riding( and not often) but it is totally because I like old timey(cowboy) stuff. It's an 1858 remington new army. Cap and ball. I wear it cross draw and it sts pretty well for how big it is.


It will be be for anything I may encounter in the North Georgia Mtns. Two legged, four legged, no legged. It will be carried which ever way is most comfortable. In the winter, concealed, in the summer open.


----------



## Irish Wake

tiffanyodonnell said:


> I carry a Taurus Ultra Lite .38 snub nose. Its in a plastic holster that has a button release. Its perfect for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tiffany, what position on your body do you carry it?


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

It's on my front right hip. The plastic holster has a big molded piece that goes inside my jeans and braces the holster so I can draw without things flopping and getting caught. 

I have fired my gun at a rattler once, but I dismounted first, held my horse by the lead, and then fired. She did well, just backing up a bit. But I missed the snake!


----------



## smrobs

LOL, what I do when I'm not sure how my horse will react is I'll simply pop my magazine out so that the only round is the chambered one. That way, if things go pear shaped, the worst that can happen is I have to clean my gun.

Thankfully, all of mine except for Rafe have been shot off of. That might be a good project for next summer...get him cool with gunshots.


----------



## Saddlebag

You can hit a heart target from from the back of a horse? My father tried that once with a snub nosed pistol. Couldn't even hit the barn door yet give him a 22 and a fence post to lean on and he could shoot the tip off a wooden match.


----------



## smrobs

I can hit a rattlesnake head from a safe distance, but not from a moving horse. I usually stop them and have them stand when I'm shooting.

As for hitting a heart target on something big, I've never tried as we have no real threatening predators around here of the 4-legged variety. We'll occasionally see a mountain lion or a bobcat, but they are so few and far between that it's unlikely I'll ever be threatened by one.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

Three years ago, I used to board my horses across the road from a shooting range and race track. They were so used to loud noises, i was worried about trail erring them to the quiet woods! But seriously, I miss having them so actively exposed to loud noises.


----------



## gunslinger

Irish Wake said:


> It will be be for anything I may encounter in the North Georgia Mtns. Two legged, four legged, no legged. It will be carried which ever way is most comfortable. In the winter, concealed, in the summer open.


A few years back, after backpacking the Jacks river trail, and returning to the trail head at Dally Gap on the East side of the Cohutta's, I loaded up the truck and headed north. 

A black bear, what looked as large as a horse, crossed the road. Normally we never see anything near that big as most of the bears we see are in the 100 to 150lb range.

When I saw that old boar I realized the .38 snubby wasn't near enough gun.

There are places the western rig and open carry really aren't appropriate, so I have a much smaller Taurus Tracker in 44 mag that I also carry........then there's the naa 22 mag in my pocket...

Fireman, that's a darn nice rig.....I've been looking for nice Ruger Old Army with the conversion cylinder...love the nostalgia...


----------



## Fort fireman

Thank you gun slinger. It's a Pietta from cabelas. If you go check them out they are always putting them on sale. I recently bought an 1860 colt on sale for 199.00. I don't have a picture of that yet.:lol:

Good luck on you hunt for a ruger. they don't make them anymore so they are hard to come by and ussually the price reflects that. i found one at a pawn shop that looked decent until I looked at the bore. it looked like the surface of the moon with all the pits. Just handed it back to the guy.

An option for you would be a gun like mine and get a conversion for it. How ever the Kirst or Howell(R&D) are about the same price as the gun itself if not more:shock:.


----------



## bbsmfg3

In this day and age, you might get yourself in big trouble packing a gun. A lot of places outlaw them. AND, unless your horse is ready to be shot off of, you could be in worse trouble.

We switched to bear mace several years ago. Much more affective for bear and human beast. And just might keep you out of the jail house.


----------



## Fort fireman

When someone posts a question such as this I take for granted that they are speaking from the point of view of a responsible gun owner. That meaning they are aware of their local laws regarding the carry ( whether concealed or open) of a firearm. Have or will get the appropriate certifications and permits and exercise this right with the appropriate consideration. 
That being said, yes, carrying has alot of responsibility that goes with it. Do not take carrying lightly and know your areas laws and restrictions.


----------



## OutOfTheLoop

I carry a s&w bodygaurd 380. Its small enough to fit in my waistband or my boot, and enough power for what I need it. The only thing I worry about on trails is snakes or coyotes, nothing larger around here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gunslinger

bbsmfg3 said:


> In this day and age, you might get yourself in big trouble packing a gun. A lot of places outlaw them. AND, unless your horse is ready to be shot off of, you could be in worse trouble.
> 
> We switched to bear mace several years ago. Much more affective for bear and human beast. And just might keep you out of the jail house.


Thanks for the advice Bob.

The Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency is advising horseback riders, hikers, hunters, fishermen and golfers to take extra precautions and keep alert for bears while engaging in outdoor activities.

They advise riders to wear noise producing devices such as little bells on their clothing to alert but not startle the bear unexpectedly.

They also advise carrying pepper spray in case of an encounter with a bear. 
It is also a good idea to watch for fresh signs of bear activity.

Black bear scat has little bells in it and smells like pepper spray.

In this day and time, if the liberals have there way, every place will be a no carry zone.

National Forest Land, subject to state law, is one of the few places a properly permitted person is still allowed to carry.

I hope we change that to include many, many more places.


----------



## jamesqf

gunslinger said:


> In this day and time, if the liberals have there way, every place will be a no carry zone.


Not really the question here, is it? Seems to me there are really two questions. First, are you going to get in more trouble firing a gun from horseback? Heck, yesterday my horse spooked a bit just from the snapping of a dead pine branch.

Second, and I think more important: Just what the heck is out there in the woods that you need a weapon to protect yourself from? Maybe if you're a woman and riding fairly close to civilization, I could see a need for protection from two-legged predators, but otherwise? To me, anyway, the mountains are where I feel safest.


----------



## gunslinger

jamesqf said:


> Not really the question here, is it? Seems to me there are really two questions. First, are you going to get in more trouble firing a gun from horseback? Heck, yesterday my horse spooked a bit just from the snapping of a dead pine branch.
> 
> Second, and I think more important: Just what the heck is out there in the woods that you need a weapon to protect yourself from? Maybe if you're a woman and riding fairly close to civilization, I could see a need for protection from two-legged predators, but otherwise? To me, anyway, the mountains are where I feel safest.


To answer the first question, as for your horse, sorry he spooked. Maybe take up mounted shooting and that might help?

To answer the second question, this has nothing to do with fear but rather, it has to do with security. As there are 690,000 acres of CNF and only 12 Leo's there's very little in the way of security and for the most part, if you want any security, you better provide for your own.

Most people aren't afraid of kitchen fires either but I, like many others, still keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen in the unlikely event that a fire does occur.

If you choose to go unarmed then I'm all for your right to make that choice. If the OP chooses to go armed then I'm all for his right to make that choice as well.

See, I'm pro-choice....at least on this one.


----------



## jamesqf

gunslinger said:


> To answer the second question, this has nothing to do with fear but rather, it has to do with security. As there are 690,000 acres of CNF and only 12 Leo's there's very little in the way of security and for the most part, if you want any security, you better provide for your own.


But that seems to be changing the discussion, as most/all of the comments talk about bears, mountain lions, rattlesnakes, and other wildlife, rather than the sort of two-legged predators that law enforcement officers might be concerned with. As I said, I can certainly see why a woman might reasonably feel the need for protection. But the wild critters? Not in my experience.



> See, I'm pro-choice....at least on this one.


Sure, me too. I've no objection to someone carrying if they want to (as I think I mentioned, my usual riding buddy always carries her .38), I just think that in most places it's nothing but extra weight for your horse to carry.


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

Irish Wake said:


> Hi What is the best hand gun to carry while trail riding. We often go out for 6-8 hours in the National Forests and WMA's.
> Thanks
> Randy


That's an easy question to answer. The best gun to carry while on trail is:

1. A gun that you have practiced with extensively and have become proficient with.
2. A gun that you can get to easily when you need it.

Everyone is different. Some might do better with a 1911, some a small Glock, others a single action. Those decisions are less important than training and proficiency. Training and practice is also how you can find the right handgun for you.

As others have mentioned, also practice shooting from horseback. When you actually have to use a weapon in self defense is NOT the time to find out about your mounted shooting skills (or your horse's).

Handling a firearm in a high pressure situation is difficult enough. Doing it from horseback is a whole 'nother can o' worms.

Practice, practice, practice until you are proficient. One hit with a .38 will do much better than 10 misses with a .50 caliber. Even worse is shooting yourself, your horse, an innocent bystander - or having someone disarm you and use your gun against you.


----------



## Celeste

bbsmfg3 said:


> In this day and age, you might get yourself in big trouble packing a gun. A lot of places outlaw them.............................. And just might keep you out of the jail house.


Down here, if I were to shoot some guy that was trying to attack me, I would not get in trouble. I would be awarded a medal for bravery and make the news.


----------



## Painted Horse

I don't worry much about conceal carry, although I do have a permit. For the most part, if I pack a gun, Its open carry in a holster on my belt.

I believe that if you are in bear country, The gun should start with a 4 and end in Magnum. And even then they are not much more than a serious noise make to scare off a bear. Most pistols can't kill a grizzly fast enough to stop a charging bear. Where as a good shot of bear spray in the face can stop a bear from charging.

I personally carry a Taurus 41mag in Titanium. It weighs 22 oz so plenty light weight to pack, It has plenty of power for most things that need to be shot, and has incredible noise.

If I'm not in bear country, I have a 9mm Browning HiPower that I carry. Ammo is cheaper, much lighter recoil and a whole lot less noise. It's heavier than my Taurus, but more fun to shoot.


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

Painted Horse said:


> I believe that if you are in bear country, The gun should start with a 4 and end in Magnum.



From what I have learned, caliber doesn't matter in bear country. Any caliber will do just fine.

The trick is to file down the front sight nice and smooth.

This way - after you shoot the bear and make him really angry - when he rips the gun from your hand and shoves it up your *radio edit* it won't hurt as much. 


Of course, there is also the old trick of facing down a bear with a .22, which can be very effective when used properly. Properly means bringing a friend. When the bear is going to attack, shoot your friend in the leg with your .22 and run like hell.


On a more serious note, I think people should carefully consider riding with a sidearm. There are many variables in that equation.

First, think about a situation where you would feel the need to shoot. Doesn't matter what type of predator - human or beast. It is likely to be a high stress situation. Both you and your horse will have adrenaline pumping and be nervous. If you have a horse that can stand still while you calmly take aim, more power to you. More likely, your horse will be ready to bolt and you will be grabbing the reins.

I am active in cowboy mounted shooting and have seen things that would have turned tragic with live ammo (we use blanks). When a horse spins/crow hops/tries to run our first tendency is usually to grab the reins and/or tighten our grip. Guess what happens when you do that while holding a cocked gun? Bang.

I'm not saying it isn't for everyone. Many people carry and safely use firearms while riding and from horseback. Just pointing out that thing are very different in practice. That bear/bad guy usually shows up when we least expect it. We also don't know how we (or our horse) will react until we are in the situation.


----------



## goneriding

See what a simple question gets ya'?


----------



## Irish Wake

jamesqf said:


> Not really the question here, is it? Seems to me there are really two questions. First, are you going to get in more trouble firing a gun from horseback? Heck, yesterday my horse spooked a bit just from the snapping of a dead pine branch.
> 
> Second, and I think more important: Just what the heck is out there in the woods that you need a weapon to protect yourself from? Maybe if you're a woman and riding fairly close to civilization, I could see a need for protection from two-legged predators, but otherwise? To me, anyway, the mountains are where I feel safest.


To answer your question on why I carry while trail riding. You don't know who or what you may run into out in the wilderness 8-10 miles from camp but I darn sure want to be prepared.

A feral dog or hog, a rapid animal, a bear with cubs, Big Foot, a Meth Head or other unsavory human bent on harming you or robbing you. I ride along the river Deleverance was filmed and **** Mountain Men scare the hell out of me.
Also if my horse breaks his leg, I'd rather shoot him then beat him to death with my cell phone.


----------



## Celeste

Irish Wake said:


> A feral dog or hog, a rapid animal, a bear with cubs, Big Foot, a Meth Head or other unsavory human bent on harming you or robbing you.


I carry when I ride, not so much that I am all that worried about all those things, but because my husband is. We argued all the time about me riding off alone until I agreed to carry. It makes him feel better.


----------



## jamesqf

Irish Wake said:


> I ride along the river Deleverance was filmed and **** Mountain Men scare the hell out of me.


You do know that "Deliverance" was a work of fiction, don't you? Likewise Bigfoot.

"Meth heads" may be real, but I doubt you're going to find them that far out in the woods. Seems like they're urban wildlife, mainly. For the rest, it seems like actually encountering one is about on a par with worrying about getting hit by a meteor or falling satellite pieces  And worst case? You're sitting on a horse: how hard is it to turn around and trot/canter/gallop away?


----------



## Celeste

James, I suspect that most of us will never need a weapon out on the trail, but it is really up to the individual to choose what they want to do.


----------



## Irish Wake

jamesqf said:


> You do know that "Deliverance" was a work of fiction, don't you? Likewise Bigfoot.
> 
> "Meth heads" may be real, but I doubt you're going to find them that far out in the woods. Seems like they're urban wildlife, mainly. For the rest, it seems like actually encountering one is about on a par with worrying about getting hit by a meteor or falling satellite pieces  And worst case? You're sitting on a horse: how hard is it to turn around and trot/canter/gallop away?


Hang out in the North Georgia Mtns and you might think it was based on a true story. As far as Meth Heads go, ever seen Breaking Bad? There's been over a thousand Meth Labs busted up in Ga last year. I see dogs, hogs and bear almost every time I ride. And I always ride with good looking women that really get off when I protect them.
Celeste is right, if I want to carry a gun or a cinder block when I ride, it's my business.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention all the moonshine stills I might run across.


----------



## jamesqf

Celeste said:


> James, I suspect that most of us will never need a weapon out on the trail, but it is really up to the individual to choose what they want to do.


Sure. As I've said, I don't in the least object to people carrying if they want to. I just think some, if not most, of the reasons they give are based on really mistaken ideas of what is or isn't dangerous.


----------



## jamesqf

Irish Wake said:


> As far as Meth Heads go, ever seen Breaking Bad?


Nope. I try not to base my opinions on TV shows or movies. Just as I wouldn't expect to acquire decent riding skills by watching westerns.



> And I always ride with good looking women that really get off when I protect them.


Well, tastes differ. Me, I prefer women who're competent enough not to need protection. And I have mentioned that most of my (exclusively female, so far) riding companions do carry.


----------



## Irish Wake

jamesqf said:


> Nope. I try not to base my opinions on TV shows or movies. Just as I wouldn't expect to acquire decent riding skills by watching westerns.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, tastes differ. Me, I prefer women who're competent enough not to need protection. And I have mentioned that most of my (exclusively female, so far) riding companions do carry.


I prefer not to have to rely on other people to protect me.


----------



## Roux

I'm with James on this one. I have run into bears, cats and coyotes as well as nefarious peoples and never felt the need to shoot them. 

The only time I think a person might need a gun on the trail is if your horse got hurt pretty bad and you needed to shoot it. Or if it bolted whilst you had your foot caught in the stirrup and you needed to shoot it to keep from getting drug to death. 

I figure me and my horse can outrun nearly everything we need to and it would be more trouble then its worth to shoot at it. Granted I am a poor shot with a handgun (decent with a rifle.)


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> I'm with James on this one. I have run into bears, cats and coyotes as well as nefarious peoples and never felt the need to shoot them.
> 
> The only time I think a person might need a gun on the trail is if your horse got hurt pretty bad and you needed to shoot it. Or if it bolted whilst you had your foot caught in the stirrup and you needed to shoot it to keep from getting drug to death.
> 
> I figure me and my horse can outrun nearly everything we need to and it would be more trouble then its worth to shoot at it. Granted I am a poor shot with a handgun (decent with a rifle.)


It's better to have a gun and not need it then to need it and not have it.


----------



## Irish Wake

Also I started this thread to ask people's opinion on what type gun is best to carry. I didn't ask nor do I care whether or not you agree on carrying or not carrying


----------



## Roux

And unless I am mistaken you were given several helpful answers before the conversation evolved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gunslinger

jamesqf said:


> Sure. As I've said, I don't in the least object to people carrying if they want to. I just think some, if not most, of the reasons they give are based on really mistaken ideas of what is or isn't dangerous.


For the most part I agree with you james. However, sometimes when things go bad they go really bad.

In the area where I frequently ride, the following occured easter week of 2006
Story of bear attack to air | timesfreepress.com

I'm friends of some who know the first responders. It took over an hour for them to get there. The bear was still on the body.

Yea, it doesn't happen often I'll agree but yet is does happen from time to time. 

In all honesty, we seldom see bears and it's always a thrill to see them.

I don't think they're as unpredictable as some of the two legged varmints previously mentioned.

Story of bear attack to air comment 
share 
email 
print 
font size 














 
By Tammie Goins
Correspondent
When a 200-pound black bear grabbed her 2-year-old son in the Cherokee National Forest, Susan Cenkus launched herself at the animal and nearly lost her life.
The bear tore at her neck, tossed her aside and grabbed her daughter, Elora Petrosek, 6. The little girl didn't survive the shattering attack, and Mrs. Cenkus and her son Luke carry permanent scars.
Now the world will have a chance to hear the chilling tale of how Mrs. Cenkus risked her life to save her children in the 2006 attack on the Animal Planet show "I'm Alive" tonight at 9 and 11 p.m.
Mrs. Cenkus and her children were hiking near the Chilhowee Campground near Benton Falls on April 13, 2006, when the bear attacked Luke, then 2.
She screamed for help and tried to fight off the animal, which turned on her, then Elora.
Help came quickly and Mrs. Cenkus and Luke were rushed to the hospital in Chattanooga.
Erlanger trauma surgeon Vicente Mejia treated Mrs. Cenkus about two hours after the attack. She was conscious but had deep punctures and crush wounds on her neck from the bear's teeth, which had severed her vertebral arteries, he said.
"When these bears attack, they often go to the neck to get the airways and paralyze the victim," he said. Doctors tied closed the arteries to stop the bleeding, because a repair was impossible, Dr. Mejia said.
With extensive soft-tissue injuries to her arms and legs, she lay in a drug-induced coma for nine days while Erlanger doctors performed seven surgeries to save her life.
Luke underwent surgery for significant puncture wounds to his skull, but healed quickly and was released from T.C. Thompson Children's Hospital after a week.
Elora's death was only the second fatal attack by a black bear in Tennessee. The other was in 2000 in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
The family had come from York Township, Ohio, to see Mrs. Cenkus' oldest son, Christopher Dennison, 23, perform in a recital at Lee University in Cleveland, Tenn.
Mrs. Cenkus, who attended Lee in the 1980s, had camped at and hiked Chilhowee Mountain many times in the past, but had never seen a bear.
According to Cherokee National Forest authorities, the bear responsible for the attack was captured a few days after the incident. DNA samples from the 200-pound bear's front claws linked it to the attack. The bear was euthanized.
Experts concluded the attack was unprovoked and predatory, given that it happened in the spring when bears emerge from hibernation and food sources are scarce.
Mrs. Cenkus made the difficult journey back to Chilhowee Mountain in 2008 where Elora, whose name means "God is my light," lost her life.
She has returned to Tennessee several times to thank paramedics and other emergency workers for risking their lives to help families like hers.
In published reports, she said her faith has made the path easier to walk and credits God for her strength to carry on and help others.
Staff writer Emily Bregel contributed to this report.
Tammie Goins is based in Bradley County. Contact her at [email protected].


----------



## bsms

jamesqf said:


> ...Just what the heck is out there in the woods that you need a weapon to protect yourself from? Maybe if you're a woman and riding fairly close to civilization, I could see a need for protection from two-legged predators, but otherwise? To me, anyway, the mountains are where I feel safest.


Well, in southern Arizona, where the US government doesn't care about enforcing the border, we have drug runners bringing drugs up from Mexico. I don't ride far enough from home for it to be a problem. My son-in-law has come across both drug and weapon caches while riding his dirt bike...and he didn't hang around to investigate further.

Outside of bear country, your worst problem is likely to be the two-legged kind. There is a good sticky on self-defense using your horse's weight and speed. But not everyone acts dangerous from the start, and a person could be pulled from their horse. It isn't too likely someone would try if they realized the rider was armed. And if they succeed, there is a lot to be said for one of the NAA derringers. They are small enough to hide almost anywhere, and it wouldn't be hard to shoot someone in the face from 3-5 feet. They have their drawbacks (single action, small enough to require some practice holding), but are worth thinking about for a last-ditch, 'this has been a really bad day and it is looking to get worse' kind of gun:








​ 
North American Arms "Sidewinder" 22 Magnum/ 22 Long Rifle* Mini Revolver with Swing-Out Cylinder


----------



## Painted Horse

I have been on numerous rides where horses have gone down. One in particular was 20 miles into Yellowstone Park back in the days when guns were not allowed in the park. Horse broke it leg crossing a river. Nothing we could do but put the horse out of it's misery. There is just no option for getting a horse 20 miles back to a trailer when it can't move. With no gun you are limited to cutting it's throat with a knife. It's no joy to have to put a old partner down, but having to do it the hard way really adds to the displeasure.

I've had Grizzly bears charge and threaten us in Alaska, I've been sitting in camo while hunting and had cougars sneek up behinds us and when I turn around and see the cat sitting 15 yards away trying to figure out what we are, it's spooky. Usually the loud noise from a gun is more than enough to shoo them away. I suspect one day I may return to my truck/trailer to find some yahoo breaking in to steal my extra saddles and a pistol may prove a sufficient deterrent to persuade him to leave things alone. A good friend came off his horse one afternoon and broke his pelvis. He laid on the ground for 16 hours. He could see the lights of the search and rescue crews looking for him, but they couldn't find him. Coyotes also circled him all night as he lay on the ground. I doubt the coyotes would attack or bother him while alive, But it sure scared him to see them circling. The noise from a pistol may have scared the coyotes off and helped the search crews find him faster.

These are all reason why I carry a gun.


----------



## TrailheadSupply

I carry when I ride, but it is not to save me from man or animal. but more for my first aid kit in case I need to put one of the stock down.


----------



## Irish Wake

Painted Horse said:


> I have been on numerous rides where horses have gone down. One in particular was 20 miles into Yellowstone Park back in the days when guns were not allowed in the park. Horse broke it leg crossing a river. Nothing we could do but put the horse out of it's misery. There is just no option for getting a horse 20 miles back to a trailer when it can't move. With no gun you are limited to cutting it's throat with a knife. It's no joy to have to put a old partner down, but having to do it the hard way really adds to the displeasure.
> 
> I've had Grizzly bears charge and threaten us in Alaska, I've been sitting in camo while hunting and had cougars sneek up behinds us and when I turn around and see the cat sitting 15 yards away trying to figure out what we are, it's spooky. Usually the loud noise from a gun is more than enough to shoo them away. I suspect one day I may return to my truck/trailer to find some yahoo breaking in to steal my extra saddles and a pistol may prove a sufficient deterrent to persuade him to leave things alone. A good friend came off his horse one afternoon and broke his pelvis. He laid on the ground for 16 hours. He could see the lights of the search and rescue crews looking for him, but they couldn't find him. Coyotes also circled him all night as he lay on the ground. I doubt the coyotes would attack or bother him while alive, But it sure scared him to see them circling. The noise from a pistol may have scared the coyotes off and helped the search crews find him faster.
> 
> These are all reason why I carry a gun.


Great Post Painted!


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> And unless I am mistaken you were given several helpful answers before the conversation evolved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh this thread "Evolved" I call it pushing your opinion and agenda when it wasnt ask for. In the future just start a new thread and don't try to derail mine.


----------



## Roux

> Oh this thread "Evolved" I call it pushing your opinion and agenda when it wasnt ask for. In the future just start a new thread and don't try to derail mine.


I have no agenda, I merely offered my own opinion and preferences when it comes to carrying a handgun when trail riding. Further I never told you what to do or even said that I believe you shouldn't carry. Again just offered the opinion of a humble pacifist. 

I understand that new ideas can be scary and threatening and I didn't mean to frighten you but I assure you I wasn't going after your guns by golly!


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> I have no agenda, I merely offered my own opinion and preferences when it comes to carrying a handgun when trail riding. Further I never told you what to do or even said that I believe you shouldn't carry. Again just offered the opinion of a humble pacifist.
> 
> I understand that new ideas can be scary and threatening and I didn't mean to frighten you but I assure you I wasn't going after your guns by golly!


I'm neither scared, frightened or feel threatened, Remember I carry a gun!


----------



## jamesqf

Roux said:


> I have no agenda, I merely offered my own opinion and preferences when it comes to carrying a handgun when trail riding. Further I never told you what to do or even said that I believe you shouldn't carry. Again just offered the opinion of a humble pacifist.


Yeah - except I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a pacifist 

If I have an agenda, it's with those who seem to think a gun is some sort of magic wand, so all you have to do is wave it in the direction of a problem and the problem disappears. In the real world, it takes training & practice to be able to use one effectively. Kinda like horses, really 

It'd be interesting to see some numbers comparing deaths & injuries from wildlife attacks to the number of accidents that happen to unskilled people carrying guns to protect themselves from such attacks. And I say this as someone who once had a rifle fire from a slight jar, even though the safety was on, and my finger outside the trigger guard.


----------



## bsms

jamesqf said:


> ...And I say this as someone who once had a rifle fire from a slight jar, even though the safety was on, and my finger outside the trigger guard.


I could throw my Ruger or Smith & Wesson handguns on the ground - not that I'd abuse a revolver like that - and they would not fire. Time to upgrade to one of these:








​ 
In the military, I've heard of people firing a rifle that had the safety on, but I've never heard of a genuine case of it happening. Maybe we just had better quality rifles...


----------



## jamesqf

bsms said:


> In the military, I've heard of people firing a rifle that had the safety on, but I've never heard of a genuine case of it happening. Maybe we just had better quality rifles...


Granted, it was a surplus AK-47, but it did happen. Friend had bought a bunch as a political statement, back around the start of the Clinton administration, and we were test-firing them. I'd loaded it, and was walking with the muzzle pointed skywards, when BANG!


----------



## bsms

^^ I hope your friend either took it to a gunsmith for repairs, or destroyed it.


----------



## goneriding

Again, see what a simple question gets ya"?…..:wink:

If you choose to carry, that is YOUR business. I get tired of hearing do gooders feelings….You do what fits your situation, period! Not every one else is in your situation, so how on earth do they have a place to judge?


----------



## Irish Wake

goneriding said:


> Again, see what a simple question gets ya"?…..:wink:
> 
> If you choose to carry, that is YOUR business. I get tired of hearing do gooders feelings….You do what fits your situation, period! Not every one else is in your situation, so how on earth do they have a place to judge?


Bravo Goneriding! I agree 100% Two people decided to hijack a thread about what type of gun is good for trail riding into a lecture on carry or not carrying. 
If people don't want to carry thats fine with me but dont tell me if i should carry when I asked what to carry!


----------



## jamesqf

Irish Wake said:


> I agree 100% Two people decided to hijack a thread about what type of gun is good for trail riding into a lecture on carry or not carrying.


Hijack? I think the hijackers are the ones who tried to turn a practical discussion into a political thread. 

Suppose the question had been "What's the best chainsaw to carry when trail riding?" Would you have objected to answers along the lines of "Well, unless you need to clear a lot of deadfall off a trail, it's probably better not to carry one at all"?

Anyway, I'll stick with my original answer: if you want to carry, then in almost all cases it's best to stick with something that you and your horse have practiced with.


----------



## Celeste

Actually, it is illegal to take chainsaws into a lot of parks............


----------



## gunslinger

Irish Wake said:


> I'm neither scared, frightened or feel threatened, Remember I carry a gun!


What I'm scared of is liberal Democrats with a super majority.


----------



## Zexious

^Oh please, haha...


----------



## goneriding

I carry…..:clap:


----------



## Irish Wake

Celeste said:


> Actually, it is illegal to take chainsaws into a lot of parks............


But Celeste if it wasn't illegal everyone knows a Stihl chainsaw is the best carry chainsaw!


----------



## Irish Wake

gunslinger said:


> What I'm scared of is liberal Democrats with a super majority.


Gunslinger you're braver then me, I'm scared of a liberal Democrat period.


----------



## jamesqf

Tell you the truth, I worry about chainsaws in the wrong hands.


----------



## Roux

> I'm scared of a liberal Democrat period.


Well then even with your gun your are scared of me!!

We almost have something in common, because the only thing that scares me worse than a republican is a gun totin' republican.


----------



## 6gun Kid

wow quite a kettle of fish here, lol. As a former LEO, my advice to you is one you are competent and comfortable with. When I ride I generally lean with the nostalgia crowd and carry a single action with matching gunleather, and I have several to choose from, A ruger vaquero in .45, a Taurus gaucho in.357, and Colt SAA in .45, and a ruger conversion in .454 casull.
However about 4 years ago I came across what I consider the finest personal defense weapon ever. Now this is just speculation and personal preference. One thing I know about choosing the "perfect firearm" is there are as many opinions as there are weapons. But that said, like I mentioned I feel that I have found the perfect one. The Taurus Judge. I alternate loading .410 000 buckshot and 250 grain fully jacketed solid bullets. Around here drug labs/pot fields and feral pigs are serious nuisance. Big cats and coyotes a close second.
But whatever you choose practice, practice, practice....then practice some more. The once you have done that desensitize your pony to gunfire and practice some more.


----------



## 6gun Kid

jamesqf said:


> Granted, it was a surplus AK-47, but it did happen. Friend had bought a bunch as a political statement, back around the start of the Clinton administration, and we were test-firing them. I'd loaded it, and was walking with the muzzle pointed skywards, when BANG!


 out of battery discharges are a scary,scary situation. Happened to me once. What made it worse was I had my small son with me, thankfully I was "playing by the rules" and had the muzzle where it was supposed to be. To this day I still get cold sweats thinking about "what might have been". It was also with a surplus AK.


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> Well then even with your gun your are scared of me!!
> 
> We almost have something in common, because the only thing that scares me worse than a republican is a gun totin' republican.


If your not scared to death about your President Obama then you are the bravest man in the world. Enjoy your Obamacare, sounds like its a real winner!


----------



## Roux

You are right progressives are brave, I will accept your compliment and add I am a woman not a man. Change can be threatening and it takes bravery to accept that.

Change is not also flawless, I am sure we have all stumbled when we were learning to walk. There are to be obstacles along the way and it takes bravery to jump them.


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> You are right progressives are brave, I will accept your compliment and add I am a woman not a man. Change can be threatening and it takes bravery to accept that.
> 
> Change is not also flawless, I am sure we have all stumbled when we were learning to walk. There are to be obstacles along the way and it takes bravery to jump them.


Sugar coated Socialism isnt brave, it's cowardly. But I will agree it's definitely change.


----------



## Roux

Nothing wrong with socialism in my opinion! 

I believe we have a fundamental difference in philosophy which will be futile to discuss. You may have the last word, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you or change your mind, nor have I told you or will tell you what to do. 

“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”

Going back to your original post, be safe out there on the trails! Thanks for the conversation, and Happy Trails!


----------



## SouthernTrails

.

Mod Note:

After reading the last few pages, I must say everyone needs to behave and if you want to talk Politics, there is a section for that :wink:

.


----------



## smrobs

Agreed, lets get back to the topic at hand....

My brother has recently started carrying a Springfield 1911 and he loves it. The only real problem I've noticed with that one is the noise. It's _so _much louder than his Glock or my Taurus .40. Oh, and it's a big gun so it's harder to conceal on a smaller body size. I guess it's a good thing that OK is now an open carry state LOL.


----------



## jamesqf

6gun Kid said:


> Around here drug labs/pot fields and feral pigs are serious nuisance. Big cats and coyotes a close second.


Different conditions. Don't have feral pigs hereabouts (Northern Nevada/California), and if there are drug labs & pot fields, the operators have the sense to keep it to themselves. Do have mountain lions: I've seen exactly one in the wild - or maybe it'd be more accurate to say I've seen half of one, his butt as he hightailed off through the woods. Coyotes we have in plenty, but they're only a problem to people who keep outdoor cats. IOW, all these things exist, but I have a problem seeing them as any sort of a threat.


----------



## smrobs

Except, of course, if they're rabid. Rabies isn't terribly _common_ in my area, but it's not unheard of either. In my life, I've shot several pest animals (skunks, possums, and a couple of coyotes) that either were or appeared to be rabid. I didn't have the chance to take _all _the heads, but the ones I did get tested positive.

Even a skunk can pose a serious threat to a horse and/or rider if it's sick like that.


----------



## 6gun Kid

jamesqf said:


> Different conditions. Don't have feral pigs hereabouts (Northern Nevada/California), and if there are drug labs & pot fields, the operators have the sense to keep it to themselves.


 feral pigs are a huge problem and they will charge you and your horse in a flat second. The methlabs and pot fields are often set up in the national forest to avoid detection and thats where I ride.


----------



## gunslinger

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> Mod Note:
> 
> After reading the last few pages, I must say everyone needs to behave and if you want to talk Politics, there is a section for that :wink:
> 
> .


Ahh...sorry....I guess I'm the one that took it that direction and do admit it's a hot button issue for me and danged if that button didn't get pushed....

The Taurus Judge is sure an interesting piece....but dang it's ugly....

I carry a couple of rounds of rat shot in my shirt pocket....seems to server the same purpose.

I guess my hero's have always been cowboys....I grew up watching Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and Trigger, and of course the great one, John Wayne.....Wagon Train, Rawhide....death valley days....etc... I think now that I'm in my second childhood a single action revolver seems to be my favorite as a horse and rider with a single action brings me back to the days of my youth.

Yep, my choice is based more on nostalgia and most autoloaders, (other than a 1911), just don't seem natural to me....at least not while I'm on my horse.

The good thing is there's a lot of different types of pistols and a different choice for every rider is a good thing....

Ride with what you're comfortable with.


----------



## bbsmfg3

"What I'm scared of is liberal Democrats with a super majority."

Now I know why I carry the 10 mm, with armor piercing shells. The bear mace is better for the bear, but the liberal Democrat wouldn't pay any attention to the mace.


----------



## SouthernTrails

bbsmfg3 said:


> "What I'm scared of is liberal Democrats with a super majority."
> 
> Now I know why I carry the 10 mm, with armor piercing shells. The bear mace is better for the bear, but the liberal Democrat wouldn't pay any attention to the mace.


Since you chose to ignore the leave out the Politics note, I might as well say that armor piercing shells still wont do any good as they are way too thick headed even for those type of shells :lol::lol::lol:

PS... Actually both parties are awful thick headed :twisted:


Seriously, leave out the political in-undoes or face the consequences :wink:

.


----------



## jamesqf

6gun Kid said:


> feral pigs are a huge problem and they will charge you and your horse in a flat second.


As I said, I've no experience of pigs (except as sausage ), but I can't help but wonder whether most people, who've maybe fired a few rounds at a target, if that, would be able to draw, fire, and hit the charging pig, while at the same time controlling a horse which is probably spooking.



> The methlabs and pot fields are often set up in the national forest to avoid detection and thats where I ride.


Yeah, I understand that. It's just that there seems to be an inherent conflict between "avoiding detection" and "getting into a firefight with someone who happens to ride by on a horse"


----------



## Fort fireman

jamesqf said:


> As I said, I've no experience of pigs (except as sausage ), but I can't help but wonder whether most people, who've maybe fired a few rounds at a target, if that, would be able to draw, fire, and hit the charging pig, while at the same time controlling a horse which is probably spooking.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I understand that. It's just that there seems to be an inherent conflict between "avoiding detection" and "getting into a firefight with someone who happens to ride by on a horse"


The problemn is there are those that just as soon eliminate the "witness" as lose the capital they would lose by having it reported to the athorities. Long shot I know but possible.


----------



## Irish Wake

Roux said:


> Nothing wrong with socialism in my opinion!
> 
> I believe we have a fundamental difference in philosophy which will be futile to discuss. You may have the last word, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you or change your mind, nor have I told you or will tell you what to do.
> 
> “Whenever you feel like criticizing any one just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”
> 
> Going back to your original post, be safe out there on the trails! Thanks for the conversation, and Happy Trails!


Roux, that was a very nice way to end things 
Thank you and same to you


----------



## jamesqf

Fort fireman said:


> The problemn is there are those that just as soon eliminate the "witness" as lose the capital they would lose by having it reported to the athorities. Long shot I know but possible.


Maybe so - I won't pretend to have any insight into how that sort of person thinks. But I'd ask what's the best option for the person on a horse? Use the horse to evade/escape, or try to engage in a firefight?


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

I have been participating in a discussion in our local school district about teachers carrying guns and defending students in a lockdown. Research shows that "caveman tactics" work best in this type of situation; throwing things, hiding behind the door and attacking as the assailant enters...

In light of that data, in a confrontation with a two-legged predator, I would turn and gallop away as fast as I could. I would reserve the gun until I felt I must use it. I know my horse is not trained for gunfire and that I am also green with firearms. Others may spend more time practicing with guns. I prefer to spend my time practicing my horseback riding.


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

tiffanyodonnell said:


> I have been participating in a discussion in our local school district about teachers carrying guns and defending students in a lockdown. Research shows that "caveman tactics" work best in this type of situation; throwing things, hiding behind the door and attacking as the assailant enters...


That's interesting and I would like to see that "research." My bet is that there is a fundamental flaw in it. Schools are typically "gun free zones." This translates to "target rich environments." 

Criminals, by definition, to not obey the law. That means the only people with firearms in a school are criminals. Therefore, the ONLY tactics available to law-abiding citizens in that environment are the "caveman tactics" described. Research would have to conclude that these tactics works best, since no armed tactics are historically available for study.

As an aside, those findings could be used to argue that police only need things to throw in a confrontation with armed assailants.

I would also submit that the known presence of armed resistance in any environment would act as a strong deterrent to an armed attacker. All recent mass shootings have been in "gun free zones." This is not something research takes into account. To be fair, the research would have to look at the target the attacker did not consider due to the possibility of armed resistance. (Why don't they ever shoot up a police station?)

As the old cowboy saying goes - you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.



> In light of that data, in a confrontation with a two-legged predator, I would turn and gallop away as fast as I could. I would reserve the gun until I felt I must use it. I know my horse is not trained for gunfire and that I am also green with firearms. Others may spend more time practicing with guns. I prefer to spend my time practicing my horseback riding.


Which is exactly correct. If you are not trained and proficient with a firearm, you should not be using it in a self-defense situation. Also, any responsible gun owner (and hopefully any responsible human) would tell you that the use of deadly force should always be a last resort. Those who are intimidated by or unfamiliar with firearms sometimes view gun owners as "Rambo" types. In reality, we are people like everyone else. I know many gun owners and NONE of them has the desire to take someone else's life. If they were ever forced to do so, it would be with great regret and the understanding they would have to live with that for the rest of their life.

If I was in an elementary school and someone came in shooting little kids - I don't think (never know until you are there) I would have any hesitation in pulling a trigger to stop the lunatic. As much as I could justify my actions, I would still have to live with the fact that I took a life. No one wants to carry that burden. Everyone I know would all rather be able to run away, hide or throw a rock. Sometimes that is not an option. Other times - when others are in danger and we can help them - our conscience won't allow it.

How can I run away when I am riding with my wife or child? Does it become everyone for themselves? Maybe I am "old school" but I feel the responsibility to protect them. Every situation is unique and there is no "one size fits all" action to take. Many times there are non-lethal ways to avoid a bad confrontation. Other times, there are no options.

As to practicing, there are many reasons for owning and using guns. Target shooting and/or hunting are two very popular ones. We don't necessarily practice for "self-defense" reasons. We practice because we enjoy the sport of shooting. Just as you may "practice" barrels or dressage on your horse.

Then, there are also people like me who do cowboy mounted shooting. This requires us to be relatively proficient with firearms. It also requires a horse that is very comfortable around gunfire. The ability to hunt or possibly defined yourself while riding with your horse is just an added bonus of that game.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

> That's interesting and I would like to see that "research." My bet is that there is a fundamental flaw in it. Schools are typically "gun free zones." This translates to "target rich environments."


Yes, the research would be interesting to read. The person who shared the research was actually a firearms trainer who supported teachers carrying guns, but cautioned that those teachers should have adequate and ongoing firearm training. 

Schools are not a necessarily gun free zones in my state of Oregon. Teachers can carry firearms if they have concealed weapons permit, unless SB policy specifically prohibits staff from doing so. We had a case here where a teacher was fired for carrying her weapon at work, though she had a CWP. Courts ruled against the district. When I go to a basketball game at my local HS, anyone in that gym could be legally carrying.



> As an aside, those findings could be used to argue that police only need things to throw in a confrontation with armed assailants.


No need to make silly if then statements. Of course police should be armed. I was just sharing something that was interesting, and actually sounds plausible. We really should be training teachers how to plan and act in the event of an attack on the school. Much of what they can do is simple, tactical strategy. 



> I would also submit that the known presence of armed resistance in any environment would act as a strong deterrent to an armed attacker. All recent mass shootings have been in "gun free zones." This is not something research takes into account. To be fair, the research would have to look at the target the attacker did not consider due to the possibility of armed resistance. (Why don't they ever shoot up a police station?)


Yes, wouldn't it be great if we had protection at every school? And who will pay for that? Its hard enough to get anyone to pay for proper remediation for kids that really need it to be able to read and do Algebra. Honestly, if I could get more money for schools, i would spend it on that because those kids need Algebra before they need an armed guard, if you consider the statistical possibilities.



> Which is exactly correct. If you are not trained and proficient with a firearm, you should not be using it in a self-defense situation. Also, any responsible gun owner (and hopefully any responsible human) would tell you that the use of deadly force should always be a last resort. Those who are intimidated by or unfamiliar with firearms sometimes view gun owners as "Rambo" types. In reality, we are people like everyone else. I know many gun owners and NONE of them has the desire to take someone else's life. If they were ever forced to do so, it would be with great regret and the understanding they would have to live with that for the rest of their life.


I agree with you completely. I have worked in the schools and thought of just this very thing. What would I do to save the lives of the kids and staff? Anything! I know myself in life and death situations, unfortunately, and I know i would do whatever it took to keep others safe, whether its taking a life or losing mine.



> How can I run away when I am riding with my wife or child? Does it become everyone for themselves? Maybe I am "old school" but I feel the responsibility to protect them. Every situation is unique and there is no "one size fits all" action to take. Many times there are non-lethal ways to avoid a bad confrontation. Other times, there are no options.


Again, I agree. If i needed to protect another, I would use lethal force, whether they were my family or complete strangers. 



> Then, there are also people like me who do cowboy mounted shooting. This requires us to be relatively proficient with firearms. It also requires a horse that is very comfortable around gunfire. The ability to hunt or possibly defined yourself while riding with your horse is just an added bonus of that game.


I have considered mounted shooting as a fun horse activity. I just haven't followed up on it at the moment, but it sounds like it would be fun. Honestly, though, I really don't like loud noises. That is why I like horses and sailboats and foreign-made motorcycles! 

This is a fun discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

I don't know how to do the quote thing. Sorry for the confusing format!


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

tiffanyodonnell said:


> No need to make silly if then statements. Of course police should be armed. I was just sharing something that was interesting, and actually sounds plausible. We really should be training teachers how to plan and act in the event of an attack on the school. Much of what they can do is simple, tactical strategy.


I don't think it silly... more the logical conclusion of that kind of thinking. I find it hard to believe any serious research could conclude that "throwing things" or "hiding behind a door to attack" is ever a better strategy than having an armed and trained person to defend against an armed intruder who's sole purpose it to shoot you. Of course you do whatever you have to with whatever is at hand. That doesn't make it a preferred method of defense.

My point is that if this "research" shows it more effective to NOT have a gun to defend against an armed attacker, why would the police (or anyone else) need guns for this purpose?

Again, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Even worse if all you brought is a looseleaf binder. I think the research is fundamentally flawed or was done by a group with an agenda (as is most research on this topic).



> Yes, wouldn't it be great if we had protection at every school? And who will pay for that? Its hard enough to get anyone to pay for proper remediation for kids that really need it to be able to read and do Algebra. Honestly, if I could get more money for schools, i would spend it on that because those kids need Algebra before they need an armed guard, if you consider the statistical possibilities.


Who/how it gets paid for is another discussion. I agree that the education part of schools are if not underfunded, than at least improperly funded. Where I completely agree are the "statistical possibilities." However, I am in New York where we had an obscene anti-gun bill shoved down our throats based on a single school shooting in the neighboring state. The unfortunate reality is that statistical improbablilites often get more attention than realities. 



> I have considered mounted shooting as a fun horse activity. I just haven't followed up on it at the moment, but it sounds like it would be fun. Honestly, though, I really don't like loud noises. That is why I like horses and sailboats and foreign-made motorcycles!


Getting it back on equine topics...

VERY simple solution to your problem. Earplugs. Cheap and simple to use.





> This is a fun discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!


And the same to you!


BTW - your use of quotes was perfect.


----------



## jamesqf

Tazmanian Devil said:


> My point is that if this "research" shows it more effective to NOT have a gun to defend against an armed attacker, why would the police (or anyone else) need guns for this purpose?


Getting pretty off-topic, but I would argue that the police do not carry guns to defend against armed attackers. 99% of the time, they are the ones doing the attacking - and they're probably wearing Kevlar body armor, too.



> Again, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.


Sure, if you know there's going to be a gun fight  But as you say,



> The unfortunate reality is that statistical improbablilites often get more attention than realities.


and the reality is that most times & places, it's highly improbable that the average rider would ever find themselves in a situation where a gun could be used to good effect.



> Getting it back on equine topics...


What you said about riding with your wife & child raises a question. If you have particular risks where you ride - wild pigs, meth labs, or whatever - do you discuss what to do if you run into one, and maybe even practice doing it?

The problem I have with people thinking they need to carry (as I said, I have no problems with them actually doing it) is not that they're Rambo types, but that they seem to have gotten their ideas of gun use from John Wayne movies. When did you ever see a western showing the good guy (or the bad guys, FTM) actually learning to use their guns - or indeed, to ride their horses? It's as though it's all supposed to be instinctive, and of course the good guy is going to be better at it than the bad guy. Just ain't like that in the real world.

So you have people like my riding buddy, who carries her revolver on every ride even though I'm pretty sure that she's never practiced with it in the 10 years or so that I've known her. If something should ever happen, will she be able to react quickly and appropriately? Or will she metaphorically be thumbing through the user manual?


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

jamesqf said:


> Getting pretty off-topic, but I would argue that the police do not carry guns to defend against armed attackers. 99% of the time, they are the ones doing the attacking - and they're probably wearing Kevlar body armor, too.


Not sure I agree with that. Pretty sure the police can only use deadly force as a defensive measure. Police have guns so they posses an equal or greater force than an adversary. To put it more in context of the question - if the police KNEW they were going into a situation with an armed aggressor, would they question the need for their own firearms? Of course not. I only brought this up in answer the "research" which seemed to state having no guns was preferable in response to an attacker with a gun.



> and the reality is that most times & places, it's highly improbable that the average rider would ever find themselves in a situation where a gun could be used to good effect.


Of course. It would be a really sad world if most of us _needed_ a gun for any significant percentage of our time. However, those who carry would argue that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Looked at another way - do you wear a seatbelt? How often has it saved your life? How about those who promote the use of helmets for riding? Same basic "better safe than sorry" concept.

Along the same line... from what I have read, most cops never have to fire their gun in the line of duty. And these are people who by nature of their job have to deal with criminals. The odds are low they will ever need a gun yet they all carry one.



> What you said about riding with your wife & child raises a question. If you have particular risks where you ride - wild pigs, meth labs, or whatever - do you discuss what to do if you run into one, and maybe even practice doing it?


I don't ride, or frequent any locations where I would need a gun. Living in downstate NY, there is no way I can get a carry permit (only restricted permits are issued). If I did frequent a place where I needed a gun, I would already be dead. Well, maybe not... I have spent my fair share of time in "bad" neighborhoods and have learned how to "get along." I would still not stand a chance against someone with a gun or knife.

Nevertheless, I have trained and am proficient with shooting from the ground and from horseback. I gained the proficiency for sporting, not self-defense purposes. Ability to use my firearms for self defense is a side benefit. _Could_ I actually shoot someone? I hope I never have to find out. 




> The problem I have with people thinking they need to carry (as I said, I have no problems with them actually doing it) is not that they're Rambo types, but that they seem to have gotten their ideas of gun use from John Wayne movies. When did you ever see a western showing the good guy (or the bad guys, FTM) actually learning to use their guns - or indeed, to ride their horses? It's as though it's all supposed to be instinctive, and of course the good guy is going to be better at it than the bad guy. Just ain't like that in the real world.


To a degree, yes. In those movies, they don't show the part where the characters grew up using a gun. Shooting off their horse for food and to keep predators away from their livestock. There are still people like that today. Of course, it was much more common years ago. For many people, using a firearm almost was instinctive. Unfortunately, today we are taught from an early age to "fear" guns. They are not good or bad - just a tool.



> So you have people like my riding buddy, who carries her revolver on every ride even though I'm pretty sure that she's never practiced with it in the 10 years or so that I've known her. If something should ever happen, will she be able to react quickly and appropriately? Or will she metaphorically be thumbing through the user manual?


Agreed 100%. From my first post in this thread I have been consistent - don't even think of carrying unless you are trained and proficient. Carrying for self defense requires (IMO) a very high level of training and regular practice. Doing it from horseback requires even more training, to include the horse.

No offense to the original poster, but you could almost argue the right answer to the thread's question is: "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be carrying for self-defense."



Bottom line for me... I can't carry due to my local laws. Would I if I could? I'm not sure. Frankly I am not sure I want the responsibility. I LIKE the ability to get into an argument when I come across an idiot. I like the ability to tell someone to **** off if they get in my face. Can't do that if I am carrying. 

I still 100% support anyone who wants to carry. That's their right and their choice. At the same time, I 100% support anyone who does NOT want to carry - that is also their choice. Don't take my guns away and I won't force you to shoot a gun. That way, everyone gets what they want.


----------



## jamesqf

Tazmanian Devil said:


> Not sure I agree with that. Pretty sure the police can only use deadly force as a defensive measure. Police have guns so they posses an equal or greater force than an adversary.


Perhaps I phrased it badly. What I meant was more along the lines of "It's the cop stopping you, not you stopping the cop." Or maybe in the context of riding, someone going out to hunt bear from horseback, as opposed to going out for a trail ride and having a bear attack you.



> Looked at another way - do you wear a seatbelt? How often has it saved your life? How about those who promote the use of helmets for riding? Same basic "better safe than sorry" concept.


Except that I don't usually wear a helmet. Never for bicycles, for motorcycles only when state laws require it. For horses, never with my old horse. With the new one, who's pretty green, my riding buddy/teacher insists. The other thing is that these are passive devices, so you don't really need to learn to use them.



> To a degree, yes. In those movies, they don't show the part where the characters grew up using a gun. Shooting off their horse for food and to keep predators away from their livestock. There are still people like that today.


Indeed, I grew up like that, with guns. (Only rich people had horses.) Probably was about 10-12 when I started carrying a .22 for squirrels & woodchucks. So like you say, I never learned to fear guns, but neither did I learn the "macho" attraction. They were a tool. 



> No offense to the original poster, but you could almost argue the right answer to the thread's question is: "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be carrying for self-defense."


Couldn't have said it better myself 



> I LIKE the ability to get into an argument when I come across an idiot. I like the ability to tell someone to **** off if they get in my face. Can't do that if I am carrying.


Yeah, I know the feeling.


----------



## 6gun Kid

gunslinger said:


> The Taurus Judge is sure an interesting piece....but dang it's ugly....


 yeah well so am I


----------



## Darrin

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Schools are not a necessarily gun free zones in my state of Oregon. Teachers can carry firearms if they have concealed weapons permit, unless SB policy specifically prohibits staff from doing so. We had a case here where a teacher was fired for carrying her weapon at work, though she had a CWP. Courts ruled against the district. When I go to a basketball game at my local HS, anyone in that gym could be legally carrying.


Is that from the appeals court? Last I heard the courts upheld the schools decision because no fire arms was a condition of her employment.

FYI for non Oregonians. In Oregon the only body capable of denying CWP on state owned lands is the Senate and they haven't denied CWP on any state land. So the above decision flies in the face of state law.

I've come late to this thread but it was a good read. I've been considering getting a carry gun for rides and never considered the implications of double action guns and possibly panicked horse. I'll have to think on that. Anyway been eyeing the Judge as my carry gun.

James to answer your question about why carry and why I'm considering it. They outlawed hound hunting for bear and cats several years ago now. End results is bear hunting is way down and cat hunting is almost extinct. There no longer is any alive that still humans so encounters are up. So far no deaths but I consider that only a matter of time. They have found both bear and cat inside of towns. 

There's also the illegal alien illegal pot growing operations in our national forests to consider. These guys can be desperate because many of them have had family members kidnapped to force them into cultivating the pot. I don't want to get between a man trying to save his family, his pot grow operation and the cartel running things. Luckily I haven't run across any active operations but have come across quite a few old grow sites that are no longer in use.

We did used to have a bad meth lab problem on public lands. It's actually an ideal place to cook meth because if you're caught you lose your vehicle but not your house when busted. National/state forest are also good due to the remoteness and chance of getting caught. Anyway that's not much of a threat anymore as state law was changed to make getting enough ingredients to cook up any quantity is hard. We went from hundreds of labs being found in the woods every year to it being a rare news report now.


----------



## Painted Horse

Darrin said:


> We did used to have a bad meth lab problem on public lands. It's actually an ideal place to cook meth because if you're caught you lose your vehicle but not your house when busted. National/state forest are also good due to the remoteness and chance of getting caught. Anyway that's not much of a threat anymore as state law was changed to make getting enough ingredients to cook up any quantity is hard. We went from hundreds of labs being found in the woods every year to it being a rare news report now.


In doing so, It now impossible to buy Iodine to treat my horse, decent matches to start a fire with and Sudafed to clear my stuffy nose. Glad to see the meth heads having a problem with supplies, But I do miss some of the stuff I used to buy.


----------



## jamesqf

Darrin said:


> I
> James to answer your question about why carry and why I'm considering it. They outlawed hound hunting for bear and cats several years ago now. End results is bear hunting is way down and cat hunting is almost extinct. There no longer is any alive that still humans so encounters are up. So far no deaths but I consider that only a matter of time. They have found both bear and cat inside of towns.


Think I addressed this already, but I've spent a lot of my adult life hiking, biking, and so on in cat/bear country. Seen exactly one mountain lion - or rather, the butt end of one headed away at speed. See maybe one or two bears a year, the closest near enough that - if I was a durn fool - I could have reached out and touched it. Critters don't worry me.

I'm more afraid of my horse spooking, either from a gun shot, or from the critter. My friend still thinks it must have been a cat that spooked Nova, leaving me laid up with a busted wrist.



> As for pot, meth, and so on, I still say the best alternative is to ride your horse away at speed. And - at the risk of getting into politics - work to legalize the stuff, so illegal operations don't have to screw up public lands, and maybe I'll be able to buy effective decongestants again.


----------



## Allison Finch

gunslinger said:


> In this day and time,* if the liberals have there way, every place will be a no carry zone.
> *
> National Forest Land, subject to state law, is one of the few places a properly permitted person is still allowed to carry.
> 
> I hope we change that to include many, many more places.


Nonsense. I, and many of my "liberal" friends are gun owners and shooters. A number of us shoot competitively. I often carry when I am in the backcountry. I will wear a small concealed pistol in .380 and will often have a lever action rifle in a scabbard.

Don't label all "liberals" as gun haters. It is no more true than saying all conservatives love guns.


----------



## Allison Finch

Irish Wake said:


> Sugar coated Socialism isnt brave, it's cowardly. But I will agree it's definitely change.


 
I posted my previous post when reading early on in this thread. It had not, yet, so spiraled out of control as to become unpleasant. It has now, however.

Folks, if you want to talk politics, start a thread in the News and Politics forum. This is not the place to bash political parties.

Consider this a gentle warning to stop the partisan squabbling.


----------



## Allison Finch

I will, occasionally, wear a western style gunbelt on a ride. I like my rifle, but my rugers are awful pretty and fun to shoot. I have "girlie" grips on my 45's....




Yes, it is always a risk to shoot around horses. If a horse is less trained, I will always dismount and tie the reins around the horse's neck. I use a halter with a lead rope and will hang onto the lead rope. If the horse breaks away, I'll just track it and catch it.


----------



## bsms

Allison Finch said:


> Nonsense. I, and many of my "liberal" friends are gun owners and shooters. A number of us shoot competitively. I often carry when I am in the backcountry. I will wear a small concealed pistol in .380 and will often have a lever action rifle in a scabbard.
> 
> Don't label all "liberals" as gun haters. It is no more true than saying all conservatives love guns.


It may not be an absolute rule, but it is certainly largely true. If you were to look at the conservative/liberal rating of those who consistently vote for gun control in Congress, the gun grabbers ARE liberals.

By party, and I grant that party affiliation is not a perfect indicator of political belief, it is largely Democrats who want gun control.

However, as you point out, this is an issue where liberal/conservative is an imperfect predictor. I have several neighbors who are very liberal (and who came to Arizona from NJ or NY), but who strongly support the right to own and carry guns. My neighbor is a handicapped woman in her 60s who called the cops when someone tried to force her window open. It took them 40 minutes to respond. When that bit of information got around, a lot of my neighbors began to take the right to self defense seriously.

And happily, whoever tried to force the window was scared off by something. There was damage to the window frame, but no entry. I told her if it happened again to call us as well as 911. Headlights sweeping across a house can be a deterrent, and a neighbor with a shotgun (or rifle in my case) can encourage someone to move on ASAP. She decided to buy a gun and get lessons on how to use it.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Allison Finch said:


> I have "girlie" grips on my 45's....


 yeah ya do!


----------



## 6gun Kid

I am trying to find some decent looking stag grips for my Vaquero and Gaucho. I love the grips that came with my .454 Casull so they wont get changed. My Grandads colt .45 has true Ivory grips on it, but that gun doesn't get fired, its 100 years old, he carried it on the border in the teens and 20's of the 20th century.


----------



## Fort fireman

Allison, I love your 1866 yellowboy. I'm assuming is an uberti? I've been looking for one for a decent price for awhile . A decent price being under a grand. Even used they seem to be going for a pretty penny. Mainly because of the popularity of the cowboy action shooting stuff. I guess. Anyway I'm assuming that is 45 lc as well?


----------



## Fort fireman

6 gun, I've heard good things about this guys grips from some sass shooters. Take it for what it's worth. :lol:

Stag grips for sixguns...Rugers, Uberti's, more...

By the way I am jealous over your 100 yr old colt.


----------



## Herosbud

I am a new kid on the block here but I would like to join in this thread about carrying a firearm while riding. The meth lab thing is the very reason that I carry here in Missouri. We ride in remote areas of the Mark Twain National Forest and it would be and ideal place to cook some of that stuff up. Even though Missouri is the meth lab capital of the world I have never come across anyone that I even suspected was up to something. But there is still tomorrow I guess. My handgun of choice is a Colt SAA in 44 special - hammer on an empty cylinder. I don't want to even think about shooting off of my horse!


----------



## Darrin

jamesqf said:


> Think I addressed this already, but I've spent a lot of my adult life hiking, biking, and so on in cat/bear country. Seen exactly one mountain lion - or rather, the butt end of one headed away at speed. See maybe one or two bears a year, the closest near enough that - if I was a durn fool - I could have reached out and touched it. Critters don't worry me.
> 
> I'm more afraid of my horse spooking, either from a gun shot, or from the critter. My friend still thinks it must have been a cat that spooked Nova, leaving me laid up with a busted wrist.


Don't think you really understood what I'm getting at. Cats used to be hunted, chased by hounds and humans together. Running into a cat during this time was extremely rare as the population was kept in check and they had a healthy fear of people. If you did see one it was like you said, their *** end heading over the hill.

Cats are no longer hunted here to any extent and have lost their fear of man. Cat population and encounters are way up now. So far nobody has been attacked but quite a few have been killed by the official state hunter (who gets to use hounds, go figure) for showing signs of aggression. It's only a matter of time and the clock is ticking before we have an attack.

Bear are not much of a problem unless you get between them and their cubs. Unfortunately that is getting to more of an issue too. While bears are still being hunted (hound hunting bears is a convenience) they are not being hunted as much as they were. This means a larger bear population so yes, encounters are up there as well. Just makes it more likely to get in between momma bear and her cubs.

I'm actually surprised you only see a couple bears a year, must not have a large bear population where you live. We see bear here all the time even when they were hunted more than now. I've seen multiple bears in a day just screwing around in the forest and not trying to find them. Personal record was 13 bear in one 5 day packing trip.


----------



## jamesqf

Darrin said:


> I'm actually surprised you only see a couple bears a year, must not have a large bear population where you live. We see bear here all the time even when they were hunted more than now. I've seen multiple bears in a day just screwing around in the forest and not trying to find them. Personal record was 13 bear in one 5 day packing trip.


Depends on what you mean by 'large'. I'm on the east side of the Sierra, so it's not exactly lush. OTOH, while I don't see all that many bears, it's quite common to see... well, shall I say evidence of them? (We all know what a bear does in the woods, right?) Nor is it uncommon for them to follow the creek down from the mountains in the fall to eat windfall fruit from the yard.

But it's not really a question of how common bears & mountain lions are, but of effective ways to deal with them when/if you do encounter them. As I've explained above, I think that unless both you and your horse are well trained in shooting, trying to use a gun is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

Again, I'm not saying anything against your right to carry - which I fully support - just the practical effectiveness.


----------



## Painted Horse

As a hunter and person who uses his horses to go big game hunting each fall. I've never found it difficult to desensitize my horses to guns. I start of by having a friend fire a pistol or 22 a few yards off to the side as I hold the lead. Once the horse is comfortable with that, I shoot the gun while standing next to the horse and then from their backs.

When hunting I'm careful not to blow out my horses ears with the muzzle blast from a 300 mag by not shooting over their head ( besides the fact that I would really hate for my horse to lift his head just as I pulled the trigger) And regardless of what the westerns portray, You are not an accurate shot when trying to shoot off the back off a horse. So I always climb off, usually step a few paces in front of my horses and shoot the rifles.

My horses have learned to let me shoot pistols out of the saddle. A 9mm is not that loud, Especially if it's not held close to their ears. Most horse will quickly learn to tolerate that.

It's just not that big of a deal to teach your horse to deal with loud noises


----------



## jamesqf

Painted Horse said:


> It's just not that big of a deal to teach your horse to deal with loud noises


Sure. I don't doubt that at all, especially given the evidence of several centuries of calvary and guns. It's also not all that hard to learn to handle a pistol competently. One of my points is that the great majority of people wanting to carry for 'protection' out in the woods don't do either sort of training. I think they're thinking that they can draw their gun and instantly turn into John Wayne 

I'm also a bit dubious - though admittedly not on the basis of personal experience - as to whether any pistol would stand much chance of stopping a charging momma bear.


----------



## Darrin

jamesqf said:


> Sure. I don't doubt that at all, especially given the evidence of several centuries of calvary and guns. It's also not all that hard to learn to handle a pistol competently. One of my points is that the great majority of people wanting to carry for 'protection' out in the woods don't do either sort of training. I think they're thinking that they can draw their gun and instantly turn into John Wayne
> 
> I'm also a bit dubious - though admittedly not on the basis of personal experience - as to whether any pistol would stand much chance of stopping a charging momma bear.


I'm more hoping the bang will scare it away than anything. I know I don't have a chance in hell of hitting a charging bear from horse back as my horse wouldn't be standing still in that situation. If on foot I wouldn't have a prayer of out running momma so I had best plug her and pray she stops.

Anyway I don't know a single person that thinks they are John Wayne just because they have a gun. I know 3 types of people. Those with a gun who neither carry or shoot their gun (as in <4 times a year). Those who own and shoot their gun all the time and those who don't own a gun. None of these three act like John Wayne. I do realize there is an ignorant gun waving group out there but I don't come across them since I stopped hunting and I don't ride during hunting season. I've also never ran into a trail rider that fits into this category.


----------



## Herosbud

6gun, Put me on the jealous list about the 100 year old Colt. The 454 Casull too


----------



## Herosbud

Allison, I really like your pictures. I have a thing for yellow aspens. Could you tell me where those were taken. Thanks


----------



## Allison Finch

That was in the East Maroon Bells wilderness area, just off the East Maroon pass. I was guiding a trip into Aspen from Crested Butte. That grey I am on was my prelim event horse. She got to do it all and loved her life.


----------



## gunslinger

Darrin said:


> I'm more hoping the bang will scare it away than anything. I know I don't have a chance in hell of hitting a charging bear from horse back as my horse wouldn't be standing still in that situation. If on foot I wouldn't have a prayer of out running momma so I had best plug her and pray she stops.
> .


I know for a fact you don't have a chance in hell hitting a charging bear if you don't have a gun......just sayin....

I think I posted this link before:

Story of bear attack to air | timesfreepress.com

It would be interesting to ask this young mother what she thinks.......I bet she would have loved to have had a pistol with her that fateful day.

We ride quite often in this area......


----------



## bsms

Remember that a self-defense situation could easily involve what happens after you have been pulled from a horse, or the guy trying to figure out what you will do if he tries to pull you off. From a distance measured in inches, one doesn't need to be very accurate. And if your horse takes off, all the better - if you stay on him!

That is why I sometimes argue for the NAA 22s. They are very small and light, but might give a person one last chance if things have really gone wrong. However, I also believe anyone who carries ought to learn their gun inside and out. That is why I don't carry a semi-automatic. I carried them in the military sometimes, but 30 years of using revolvers means they are what I carry.

My family has all learned shooting using the same gun I learned with - a 4" S&W 22/32 kit gun. There is nothing like putting 10,000 rounds down range to start feeling comfortable with a gun! And that little gun has now fired far more than 10,000 rounds during 35 years with me. My oldest daughter and daughter-in-law plan to fight over it when I die...just hope they don't decide to hurry that day up! :wink:


----------



## Painted Horse

I hope I don't have to worry about actually hitting the charging bear. For me the gun is a noise maker and I hope that is enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bx-0Jg3tX0


----------



## jamesqf

gunslinger said:


> It would be interesting to ask this young mother what she thinks.......I bet she would have loved to have had a pistol with her that fateful day.


You can always use hindsight to play what-if games. I bet these guys wish the hadn't had guns that day.

Father Fatally Shoots Son While Deer Hunting, Then Kills Himself - NYTimes.com
Son shoots father with bird shot during hunting trip in NH | Local News - WCVB Home
Father Accidentally Shoots Son in the Face While Hunting Deer: Police | NBC 10 Philadelphia

(Just a few of many stories Google pulls up.) Compare the number of accidental shootings by hunters and others who presumably should know something about safe gun handling, with the miniscule number of injuries from wildlife attacks, and play the odds.


----------



## 6gun Kid

There are many examples to both sides of the argument. I also don't think James is trying to insult anyone. The decision to carry is a very personal one. I choose to carry, and I feel that as a former LEO I am better equipped to make that decision than most. I have also taken the time and great pains to train Jackson to gunfire and I know that he is pretty steady as a firing platform. I have been in 2 situations where I was glad I was carrying, one a group of us were riding and we were charged by a feral sow protecting her piglets (she went to piggy heaven) and the second was a very sketchy dude carrying an axe ( only took my presence with a very large pistol on my hip for him to disappear into the brush). I have also ridden up on 2 pot fields, luckily we encountered no one and were able to just backtrack and leave.... but I wont lie both times the pucker factor was very high, especially the one when I had my 2 daughters with me.


----------



## gunslinger

These gun threads are beginning to be a lot like helmet threads....

You do, or you don't....and everyone else is wrong.....

I doesn't matter why, what or how.

It's called individual liberty.


----------



## jamesqf

gunslinger said:


> It's called individual liberty.


Nope, at least not as far as what I've been saying. If you want to carry a gun when you ride, or anywhere else FTM, that's your right, end of discussion. 

What I've been trying to discuss is a) whether there's any practical reason to do so; and b) whether an untrained rider & horse aren't likely to get themselves in more trouble with a gun than without.

So let's try an analogy. It's possible that my horse could throw a shoe when I'm out riding. Shouldn't I carry around spare shoes and a complete farrier kit, just in case? And despite the fact that all I know about shoeing comes from holding the lead rope while the farrier does his job?


----------



## bsms

Worst case, after you've been pulled off your horse, it doesn't take much training to stuff a revolver in his belly and pull the trigger. And if a would-be bad guys sees two riders, and one is armed, the would-be bad guy is more likely to act like a nice guy on that day.

The one time I pulled a gun, I didn't shoot. Good thing, since it was my 6-shot 22 revolver and there were 8 of them. But since no one wanted to be first, and since they didn't seem to realize it was 'just a 22', I walked away that day. I'm not sure a farrier kit would have had the same effect...:wink:


----------



## smrobs

But, james, along that same analogical line....you aren't likely to be seriously injured or killed if your horse throws a shoe. If you are attacked, you might not end up so lucky.

I think we're actually all of the same mind here, we're just having trouble articulating our feelings correctly. Nobody is advocating folks who've never handled a gun to start carrying "just because".

I'm a firm believer in allowing folks to carry who want to carry, but I'm also a firm believer that the carrier needs to have the working knowledge and familiarity and confidence to be able to handle the gun correctly and have good enough judgement to know when they really need to use it and when they don't.

But, IMHO, that extends to every person who is deciding whether to carry or not...not just for riders.


----------



## gunslinger

jamesqf said:


> What I've been trying to discuss is a) whether there's any practical reason to do so; and b) whether an untrained rider & horse aren't likely to get themselves in more trouble with a gun than without.


I guess that's the good thing about the second amendment. It's an individual right so neither question is relevant.

As it seems nobody has provided an answer that suits you then how about....I can, and I will, or, because I want to?


----------



## jamesqf

bsms said:


> Worst case, after you've been pulled off your horse...


There's the thing that really perplexes me: where are you folks riding that is so darn dangerous? Or are you just dealing with the boogyman in the closet?


----------



## Celeste

I carry because it keeps my husband from being upset that I am riding alone when the woods can be full of people that are hunting or getting ready for hunting season. 

I once pulled my gun out. I was riding alone down a narrow road. A truck went by me. It turned around and started coming at me. There was no way that I could get off of the road. My horse ran as fast as she possible could, but he was obviously planning on hitting her. I pulled out my gun and pointed it at the truck while at full gallop. I aimed it right at the guy. Suddenly he changed his mind. I think he may have damaged his transmission backing up so fast. 

I don't know what he had in mind, but it was not a good thing. Soon after that, man of the same description was trespassing on our elderly neighbor's land. The neighbor (aged 80) approached the man and told him he was on private property. He pushed the old man down and pulled a knife out and threatened him. The man's son arrived and the man ran away. 

To make a long story short, I am glad that I didn't have to shoot him, but I did realize that I would have if pushed. My life and the life of my children's mother is more important than that of someone who tries to run over women and old men. 

I don't think he ever did get caught, but he left this community alone anyway.


----------



## Painted Horse

James, Have you ever been charged by a Grizzly? 

Grizzly Bear ran 200 yards in seconds and stopped 10 yards in front of us and stood up on its hind legs and barked at us. fortunately it dropped to all 4 legs and wandered over to where I had a couple fish laying on the bank and took them and started to eat them at I left. I have never been so scared in my life

I had a moose chase me up a tree. She kept me up there for 20 minutes. Every time I tried to climb down, she rushed back over. I'm sure a loud bang would have been all I needed to persuade her to leave.

I also had a friends horse go down with a broken leg. It was 20 miles back inside yellowstone. It was not going to walk out. You either leave it for the bears to find an injured horse or you put it down. I had no gun that trip and I had to use a knife in the throat. I much prefer to dispatch a horse with single shot to the brain vs a knife.

On another pack trip, we had a pack horse crowd a saddle horse on a narrow trail. The saddle horse went off a 40 foot cliff. In that case it broke its neck and we didn't have to put it out of it's misery. But it could have required us to. 

The point is. Spend enough time in the back country and you will experience something like the above and need a gun.

I have a conceal carry permit. But I NEVER carry gun in town. I've never been too worried about bad people. But the permit allows me to carry a gun into Yellowstone. Where I have run into bears, wolves and moose.


----------



## bsms

jamesqf said:


> There's the thing that really perplexes me: where are you folks riding that is so darn dangerous? Or are you just dealing with the boogyman in the closet?


I've pulled a gun once, over 30 years ago. If I hadn't, would I be here to type these words? Was it worth having a gun with me on a hike where I expected nothing to go wrong?

I live 60 miles from the Mexican border. Where I ride, the risk is near 0 and I don't carry when I ride. My son-in-law has come across drug and weapons caches while using his dirt bike. He didn't see anyone around, and he didn't stay long to look. I don't go that far out because there is no water for my horse.


----------



## jamesqf

Painted Horse said:


> James, Have you ever been charged by a Grizzly?


Nope. Now give me a couple of honest answers. First, do you really think there is any pistol in this world that is going to stop a charging grizzly, even if fired by a cool-headed expert marksman from the back of a trained horse? Second, are you & your horse that expert?

As for the horse breaking a leg scenario, sure, that's reasonable on a long ride, but is that really the question under discussion?



> But the permit allows me to carry a gun into Yellowstone. Where I have run into bears, wolves and moose.


As I've said, I run into (non-grizzly) bears, no problems. Wolves I would like to see, but would not regard as any sort of threat.  Moose I don't know all that much about, except that most people aren't likely to encounter them where they ride.


----------



## Painted Horse

There is no way a pistol will kill a grizzly bear fast enough. My hopes would be (like the video I posted a few messages earlier) that noise would be enough to scare the bear off. Even a fatal wound to a grizzly, may still give the bear enough time to do some serious damage to you. The point is, that when the bear charges, I would rather have the option of inflicting damage or hopefully enough noise to scare the bear rather than just shaking from the fear.

I can shoot a gun off my horses back. I've practiced that. What I can't do is practice having a 900lb bear charge my horse to see if he will stand still. I have a strong belief that I would have a difficult time getting my horse to stand still during such an encounter. Again my belief is that the ear splitting noise of discharging a large caliber handgun is more of a deterrent than the impact of a bullet. And I don't have to be accurate with noise.

But in reality, I suspect I'm more prone to run into a bear invading my camp where I would most likely be off the horse and cooking dinner, fishing, sleeping or some other activity, than to encounter a bear on the trail while in the saddle.

The wolves I've encountered have all been very eager to put distance between me and them. It would be a rare circumstance that I think they would attack or endanger a human. I've had cougars sneek up to with in 15 yards of me and sit and try and figure out what I was. But I was not on a horse, but rather hidden with camo and scent free while I was hunting. The cats have been more curious as to what I was, knowing something was close by, but just not able to place what I was or exactly where I was positioned. I strongly suspect if I had been on the horse and moving, I would rarely ever see a cougar that close.

A man on a horse is a very large opponent to most predators and you are unlikely to be threaten by all but the largest of predators. But there are so many times when you are out in the wilderness areas, that you may not be in the saddle and could be at risk.

And why is a horse breaking it's leg not really what we are discussing here. We are discussing why I carry a firearm, and what type of firearm to carry. I frequently do 20+ miles rides. That's 10 miles out and 10 miles back. If a horse goes down 10 miles from the trailer. He is not going to make the trip back and needs to be humanly put down. Spend enough time riding and you will get to witness something similar to this. And when you do, you will wish that somebody in your group had a firearm to take care of this task.


----------



## Painted Horse

One night, I heard a ruckus coming from the horses. I crawled out of my tent and shined a light on the horses to see what the problem was. They were all backed up as far as their lead ropes with stretch and cow moose was eating their hay. She wanted it and wasn't afraid to intimated my horses to get them to move off and leave it for her. Now discharging a pistol to scare her off, My have furthered spooked my horses that were already at wits end because of the moose's actions. Luckily she was willing to move off with just my presence.

Another trip, I pulled into the trail head and young bull was eating a bale of hay out of the back of a parked truck. He was pretty belligerent that he was staying and finishing that meal. Since it wasn't my truck or my hay, I left him to enjoy it. He had pulled the entire bale out of the back of the truck and broke it open on the ground by the truck.


I encounter moose frequently here in Utah. They are very common to see along the trail. Here is a photo of a young bull I called Lefty. He had broken off his right antler, probably while rubbing the velvet. So he only had his left antler.


Neither of these incidents required a gun. But the time when I got tree'd by a moose and it would have been nice to have loud noise maker, I didn't have a gun. I survived all the encounters. But I would have been happier if I could have scared that cow moose off rather waiting for her to get bored and leave.

Carrying a gun is just tool. Like carrying a knife or matches. Some times you don't need it. But you are usually happy if when you do need it, you have it.


----------



## SueNH

For about 5 yrs, in early spring I would get a cow moose eating off my round bales with my horses. The horses didn't seem to mind other than a few odd looks when she first appeared. Every darn time I'd go back for my camera and she would be gone. I think she just got lonely once and awhile and early in spring there isn't much to eat. Didn't see her this spring or any sign of her. Kind of makes me sad. Lot of moose tracks further out on my property. They use the snowmobile trails traveling a lot.









This guy lives about 5 miles from here.

Had a friend treed by a bull moose once. He was eating his lunch on a stump at a logging site. Moose came charging out of the woods, my friend jumped into the skidder thinking the giant tractor with it's roll cage would protect him. Moose tipped it over. My friend went up the nearest tree and stayed until the others came to pick him up at quitting time.

When the meth lab was up the road I used to carry quite a bit. Mostly when I was on foot. Lot of creepy folk wandered around then. I knew the state police were "working" there so had to just bare with it. On horseback I figured I'd just run away from the creepy. Also used to be a big pot farm under the guise of a turkey farm. Tractor trailer loads would leave there. More iffy characters. We don't have a full time police dept and state police would be responding from who knows where. Nearest full time PD is 15 miles. Cell phone service is at best spotty to nonexistent.

My father was charged by a white tail buck in the woods. He actually had to kill the thing. No suitable trees and the deer wasn't backing off. I was really small so I don't really remember the details but the stick, a charred and sharp small pine still hangs in his man cave to this day.

Friend of mine was charged by a wild boar and had to shoot it. Not a feral pig but a real wild boar. They don't officially exist here either like the cougar and wolf sightings that people must be mistaken about. I'd rather have wolves than meth labs anyhow.

If I do carry a gun it's my glock. I carried one like it when I was with a local PD. It's the one I'm trained with, the one I'm likely to hit the target with. I know what it does and doesn't do.


----------



## jamesqf

Painted Horse said:


> Carrying a gun is just tool. Like carrying a knife or matches. Some times you don't need it. But you are usually happy if when you do need it, you have it.


Which has been part of what I've been arguing about all along. It's a tool, not - as all too many people seem to think - a magic wand that you can just pull out and wave around to make the bad things go away. And like any other tool, if you don't know how to use it properly, you can easily discover that it causes more problems than it solves.


----------



## bsms

If a gunshot causes your horse to bolt when you are being charged by a grizzly...then good for the gunshot! I'm pretty sure my horse would already be going top speed...but if it takes a gun going off to encourage her, so be it.

A rifle can stop a grizzly. A handgun won't be likely to kill it, but it may convince it to retreat. I guess in the worst case, you could turn it on yourself.

Heck, carry a black powder gun. You fire it. Your horse bolts. The grizzly thinks you are a magician who has disappeared in a cloud of smoke!

Personally, I would be more concerned about the scenario where I have pulled a gun. I was returning from a hike. There were 8 guys sitting on or around my car, drinking. I was alone, and several miles from the nearest paved road. The nearest cop was probably 30 miles away. The guys stood up and started to surround me.

When I pulled my gun, even though it was a 22, and got myself ready to shoot the nearest one in the face, they lost interest in surrounding me. I moved around them, got my keys out with my left hand, got in and started the car and put the automatic transmission into drive with my left hand, and drove off.

Imagine coming back to the trailer you used to get your horses near the trail. There are 3-5 guys there. They act friendly and ask what sort of horse you have, but the hairs on your neck start to stand up. While doing that, they start to surround you.

Depending on your horse, you may be able to bolt. There is a sticky thread on defensive reactions while on your horse. But there is something to be said for being able to rest your hand on the gun in your in-waist holster, and tell the guys you prefer to be left alone. Or even to rest it on the gun on your hip, and explain the same thing.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

bsms said:


> If a gunshot causes your horse to bolt when you are being charged by a grizzly...then good for the gunshot! I'm pretty sure my horse would already be going top speed...but if it takes a gun going off to encourage her, so be it.
> 
> A rifle can stop a grizzly. A handgun won't be likely to kill it, but it may convince it to retreat. I guess in the worst case, you could turn it on yourself.
> 
> Heck, carry a black powder gun. You fire it. Your horse bolts. The grizzly thinks you are a magician who has disappeared in a cloud of smoke!
> 
> Personally, I would be more concerned about the scenario where I have pulled a gun. I was returning from a hike. There were 8 guys sitting on or around my car, drinking. I was alone, and several miles from the nearest paved road. The nearest cop was probably 30 miles away. The guys stood up and started to surround me.
> 
> When I pulled my gun, even though it was a 22, and got myself ready to shoot the nearest one in the face, they lost interest in surrounding me. I moved around them, got my keys out with my left hand, got in and started the car and put the automatic transmission into drive with my left hand, and drove off.
> 
> Imagine coming back to the trailer you used to get your horses near the trail. There are 3-5 guys there. They act friendly and ask what sort of horse you have, but the hairs on your neck start to stand up. While doing that, they start to surround you.
> 
> Depending on your horse, you may be able to bolt. There is a sticky thread on defensive reactions while on your horse. But there is something to be said for being able to rest your hand on the gun in your in-waist holster, and tell the guys you prefer to be left alone. Or even to rest it on the gun on your hip, and explain the same thing.


Woah. That sounds extremely scary.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Painted Horse said:


> If a horse goes down 10 miles from the trailer. He is not going to make the trip back and needs to be humanly put down. Spend enough time riding and you will get to witness something similar to this. And when you do, you will wish that somebody in your group had a firearm to take care of this task.


I can second this statement - it happened to me.

Was on a trail ride in Oregon with some friends and a horse fell off the mountain trail. Landed at the bottom of an incline after a horrific tumble with 2 broken legs. Nobody had a firearm. I wound up cutting the horse's throat as it was the most humane thing we could do. I had nightmares about it for months. 

It was all the incentive I needed to learn to shoot. Never again.


----------



## Zexious

Painted and Sue--Those are beautiful pictures.

This has been an incredibly interesting thread! You have all run into some amazing, and scary stuff!
I really hope I can start some trail riding adventures soon, so I can have neato stories like you all /admiration


----------



## Darrin

phantomhorse13 said:


> I can second this statement - it happened to me.
> 
> Was on a trail ride in Oregon with some friends and a horse fell off the mountain trail. Landed at the bottom of an incline after a horrific tumble with 2 broken legs. Nobody had a firearm. I wound up cutting the horse's throat as it was the most humane thing we could do. I had nightmares about it for months.
> 
> It was all the incentive I needed to learn to shoot. Never again.


Out of curiosity where were you riding in Oregon when that happened? Biggest horse killer trails I know our here is Hells Canyon.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Darrin said:


> Out of curiosity where were you riding in Oregon when that happened? Biggest horse killer trails I know our here is Hells Canyon.


We were in the Mt Hood National Forest. We had trailered up to somewhere in the Zigzag area (I lived outside Hood River). Beautiful area, though it often tweaked my fear of heights!


----------



## Darrin

Ok, some steep country out in that area too. Only rode over there a couple times though.


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

Painted Horse said:


> Again my belief is that the ear splitting noise of discharging a large caliber handgun is more of a deterrent than the impact of a bullet. And I don't have to be accurate with noise.


There have been a few posts in this thread about the noise factor and its effectiveness. Yes, noise can be very effective with animals (just as simple brandishing can be effective with 2-legged predators).

IMO, if that is your goal, I would highly suggest using blanks instead of live ammo.

One of the "basic rules" of gun safety is "know your target - and what is BEHIND it." The back country may be safer, but you still never know where that "miss" will end up. Even a handgun round can travel quite a distance.


----------



## Painted Horse

If I'm going to trouble to load cartridges, I'm going to load the real things, not blanks. I'm smart enough to pick an effective back drop.


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

Painted Horse said:


> I'm smart enough to pick an effective back drop.


My comment wasn't directed at you personally and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything about your intelligence.

It is, however, safe to assume there are _some_ people who will read this thread who have no knowledge of or experience with firearms. With that in mind, I felt it important to state what should be obvious. Which is that no one should infer a "spray 'n pray" approach is ever a good idea.


----------



## Herosbud

While riding above timber line in southern Colorado we were going up a very rocky trail when my horse suddenly stopped dead. I dismounted to see what was wrong and found that his hoof was wedged between two large immovable rocks. My wife dismounted and just had to depend on her horse to stay put - and came to the front of my horse to keep him from going forward. It surely would have broken his leg. I saw some remains of a tree some distance away and went to get a log, or stick that I could get under the toe of the hoof and pry it out. Well the logs and sticks broke and we were out of ideas. With that old Blaze reared back and jerked the hoof out almost taking off the shoe and badly scarring the hoof wall. If he would have broken the leg or pulled off the hoof the horse would have had to have been put down. In which case we would have needed two guns - One to hold to my head and one to shoot the horse!


----------



## jamesqf

Tazmanian Devil said:


> It is, however, safe to assume there are _some_ people who will read this thread who have no knowledge of or experience with firearms.


Yes. I also wonder whether, if scaring the hypothetical charging grizzly with a bang is the goal, flash-bang grenades might not be more effective? After all, the typical pistol isn't all that loud unless you're really close.


----------



## phantomhorse13

jamesqf said:


> I also wonder whether, if scaring the hypothetical charging grizzly with a bang is the goal, flash-bang grenades might not be more effective?


Why not an _actual_ grenade? Don't even need to be able to aim well..

:rofl:


----------



## Darrin

Then everybody would be running from that forest fire you just started.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Painted Horse

James, Please you are showing just how little you have been around guns. We are not talking about carrying little 22 pistols or a 32 auto. If you are going to be in Big Bear country, Carry a proper gun.

Pretty much most guns that start with a 4 and end in Magnum will make your ears hurt. Painfully hurt. If you are in the 10-15 yards in front of it when discharged. If it makes my hearing loss ears hurt. I can imagine what it does to a animal that has better hearing than me to start with.

I refuse to shoot my magnums with out hearing protection. It would take a serious threat on the trail before I would subject my ears to that pain. If I discharged a pistol on the trail, The threat is going to be right close and in front of me. I'm not worried about a bear 100 yards away. I'm worried about the grizzly bear that is almost right on top of me and this is a last attempt to save my life. And at that distance the noise most certainly is LOUD.

If I need to use it to put a horse down, Then I have the time to dig out some hearing protection.

If you are carrying a 38 or 9mm, You are not worried about Bears. You are carrying a gun for two legged predators. And noise is not the deterrent there, but penetration is.


----------



## bsms

Painted Horse said:


> ...Pretty much most guns that start with a 4 and end in Magnum will make your ears hurt. Painfully hurt. If you are in the 10-15 yards in front of it when discharged. If it makes my hearing loss ears hurt. I can imagine what it does to a animal that has better hearing than me to start with...


I don't know. Last time I fired a 44 Mag without hearing protection, I didn't hear a thing.

For a week!

Except for the doorbell that someone kept ringing. Must have had a remote control, because there was never anyone standing at the door...

If I were in grizzly country, I'd seriously consider carrying a rifle. A friend of mine carried a 375 H&H Magnum...that's about the bottom end of what I'd like to have with me. I had a professor who was mauled by a grizzly. He survived, but it left me no doubt about what those beasts can do!

Still, when you care enough to send the best...a bit short of barrel, though, if I had to do it all over again :wink: :








​


----------



## jamesqf

bsms said:


> I don't know. Last time I fired a 44 Mag without hearing protection, I didn't hear a thing.
> 
> For a week!


And I bet you were really close to it when you fired it, unless you have really long arms 

I will admit to not having a whole lot of experience at being in front of guns when they're fired, at least at close range. I do try to avoid that sort of thing, as it's not real good for the health. As for experience... Well, I'm no gun enthusiast, but I did get a fairly intensive education in using them, courtesy of the USMC.


----------



## Irish Wake

As the starter of this thread I thought I'd give you an update I now carry a Rossi 357 magnum revolver while trail riding. Nice simple pistol that can shoot 357's 38's and the all important Snake Shot.

A quick story, riding this weekend with 3 friends in the North Ga Mtns we came upon about 10 acres of area that was deeply rooted out by Feral Hogs. As we rewched the top of the ridge there were close to 20 good sized hogs in the 150lb range.
When they noticed us the hogs all banded together and came running up the back side of the ridge towards us. I dismounted, drew my pistol and when I saw they were getting within 20 yds of us and still headed towards us I fired a shot over top of them.

They did a 180 ran back down the ridge over a small creek and up the opposite side of the ridge and disappeared over the next ridge.

I don't know what they were planning but I'm glad I had my pistol!

Also the two mules and the two horses didn't spook, they just stood there and really didn't react at all.

It was neat to get that close to that many hogs but the damage they do is amazing to see


----------



## gunslinger

Wow...I've ridden the North GA mountains to some extent....every time I've seen hogs they've went the other way.......

Where were you riding?


----------



## Irish Wake

gunslinger said:


> Wow...I've ridden the North GA mountains to some extent....every time I've seen hogs they've went the other way.......
> 
> Where were you riding?


We were riding at Lake Russell WMA it surrounds Currahee Mtn which is real close to Toccoa,Ga
Beautiful place to ride


----------



## Zexious

Irish--Wow, that's insane! Were you scared at all? :O


----------



## gunslinger

Irish Wake said:


> We were riding at Lake Russell WMA it surrounds Currahee Mtn which is real close to Toccoa,Ga
> Beautiful place to ride


I met a couple of guys at the Cataloochee horse camp in the Smoky's back in late September that were from that area.....

I haven't ridden in N. Georgia that far East yet.....I'll have to add that to my "to ride" list. By any chance, do you have any waypoints for the trail heads in that area?

After watching "Band Of Brothers", I'd like to spend some time over that way.....although I've heard there isn't much left of the old army camp....


----------



## Irish Wake

gunslinger said:


> I met a couple of guys at the Cataloochee horse camp in the Smoky's back in late September that were from that area.....
> 
> I haven't ridden in N. Georgia that far East yet.....I'll have to add that to my "to ride" list. By any chance, do you have any waypoints for the trail heads in that area?
> 
> After watching "Band Of Brothers", I'd like to spend some time over that way.....although I've heard there isn't much left of the old army camp....


Those are the guys I ride with Stan, Jerry, Joe, Matt. Most of them ride mules. I couldn't make that trip but I ride with them almost every weekend. They were with me when we encountered the hogs.

I do have the way points, I'll get them to you. What's your name I'll tell Stan we talked.
Regards
Randy


----------



## Irish Wake

Zexious said:


> Irish--Wow, that's insane! Were you scared at all? :O


Z, to be honest I really wasn't scared, it was just so neat to see that many wild hogs at once and it happened so quickly.


----------



## Zexious

^I'm pretty jelly! Were there any babies? Too bad it happened too fast for pictures (not that you would have really wanted to take the time to snap any xD)


----------



## 6gun Kid

Good job on keeping your cool, it can be an exciting time to sat the least. I was charged about 2 years ago by a large feral sow (in the 200# range) from about 30 yards. So I know the feeling.


----------



## gunslinger

Irish Wake said:


> Those are the guys I ride with Stan, Jerry, Joe, Matt. Most of them ride mules. I couldn't make that trip but I ride with them almost every weekend. They were with me when we encountered the hogs.
> 
> I do have the way points, I'll get them to you. What's your name I'll tell Stan we talked.
> Regards
> Randy


Hey Randy...name is Bill but while we talked for a bit they may or may not remember the conversation......again, that's an area I'd love to spend a bit of time in.....if nothing more, for the history.....of Easy Company....


----------



## Irish Wake

gunslinger said:


> Hey Randy...name is Bill but while we talked for a bit they may or may not remember the conversation......again, that's an area I'd love to spend a bit of time in.....if nothing more, for the history.....of Easy Company....


What were you riding while you were there in Sept


----------



## Darrin

Irish Wake said:


> What were you riding while you were there in Sept


This gave me a good chuckle. Most of us remember the horse but not the rider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gunslinger

Irish Wake said:


> What were you riding while you were there in Sept


Miss Lacy, the bald face walking mare in my avatar.....DW was riding a palomino Qh....Sonny Boy....we were tent camping....


----------

