# Laminitis of the Hoof? Suspect:De-Wormers



## MikeZulch (Mar 15, 2015)

Hey Guys,

I'm Back again with a new question regarding dewormers. Insight was introduced to me regarding a correlation between Laminitis of the Hoof and de-wormers. Can anyone further elaborate on an experience they have had with this? In other words, Has anyone noticed a bout of laminitis within 24 hours after administration of Pramox or any other drug?



Thanks You!
Michael Zulch
Elms College Biology

What's the Scoop on Poop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq6aeSmRToI
[email protected]


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Not full laminitis but low grade and footiness after Pramox. Annoyingly as the drug stays in their system for 16weeks it was a difficult time and now I never use Pramox, but keep the tape worm and encysted red worm treatments separate.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

To make that connection other factors have to first be ruled out, such as was it an unhealthy horse that someone wanted to quickly help & along with the dewormer also gave food it wasn't used to?
Was there such a large worm load that the kill caused toxins to be released into the blood stream?
Did the horse have a fever of some other etiology?
Could it be that the dewormer got the blame but it wasn't the culprit?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

natisha said:


> To make that connection other factors have to first be ruled out, such as was it an unhealthy horse that someone wanted to quickly help & along with the dewormer also gave food it wasn't used to?
> Was there such a large worm load that the kill caused toxins to be released into the blood stream?
> Did the horse have a fever of some other etiology?
> Could it be that the dewormer got the blame but it wasn't the culprit?


 I believe it was the wormer...the result was swift and the only thing to change. Not a large worm load as worm counted but encysted do not appear on worm counts so although possible, I doubt it.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

On the IR/Cushings Yahoo group only a couple of dewormers are considered safe for these horses, so I can imagine that some drugs can cause problems.


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## Luv equins (Oct 10, 2014)

Much likey. Probably. You can use diatomaceous earth!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Luv equins said:


> Much likey. Probably. You can use diatomaceous earth!


Do you know what vinyl records were & what they tended to do?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

No personal experience with laminitis from drugs of any kind(thank goodness), but yes, many drugs/vermicides can induce laminitis, particularly if the horse is already oversensitive(IR or cushings, or gut damage for eg). Thankfully in absence of mechanical problems too, short term use of a drug(such as wormers, as opposed to long term use of bute for eg) will induce only short term laminitis & if managed appropriately, no significant long term effects should generally come of it. But I have heard of one case where everything possible(& right) was done for a very expensive(think racehorse from memory) horse and he died anyway, from drug induced founder.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

I've worked with (yards of 100+ horses) and owned many horses over 50 years and never had a problem with laminitic symptoms following worming. I have had a problem with mild colic after worming for tapeworm, several of the school horses/ponies showed mild symptoms - vet said it can happen. 

Think it may just be a co-incidence


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Tnavas said:


> I've worked with (yards of 100+ horses) and owned many horses over 50 years and never had a problem with laminitic symptoms following worming. I have had a problem with mild colic after worming for tapeworm, several of the school horses/ponies showed mild symptoms - vet said it can happen.
> 
> Think it may just be a co-incidence


 I've never had an issue with other wormers, just Pramox and only with barefoot horse, anything shod I doubt would be obviously affected. It absolutely wasn't coincidence as I tried it again...mostly because there are only 3 wormers available for encysted redworm in the UK so choice is limited and you have to worm for this as worm counts don't work. (but now I have learnt to do separate wormers)


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

My school horses were all barefoot - what was the weather like at the time? Had there been some periods of rain?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Tnavas said:


> My school horses were all barefoot - what was the weather like at the time? Had there been some periods of rain?


 :lol: It's the Uk, there are always periods of rain!


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Clava said:


> :lol: It's the Uk, there are always periods of rain!


I know - that why I moved to New Zealand - I couldn't stand living through winter in UK ever again!

Most likely the footyness will have been from the feet being wet and soft. Abscesses love damp weather and your horse could have had one brewing - they can flare up and subside just as quick.

Was there any visible signs of lamintis in the hoof wall as it grew done?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Tnavas said:


> I know - that why I moved to New Zealand - I couldn't stand living through winter in UK ever again!
> 
> Most likely the footyness will have been from the feet being wet and soft. Abscesses love damp weather and your horse could have had one brewing - they can flare up and subside just as quick.
> 
> Was there any visible signs of lamintis in the hoof wall as it grew done?




No, my horses hooves are wet all winter they live out in mud but are not footy all winter. This was not an abscess, something I am familiar with, this was sensitivity with all 4 hooves. As said it was not full laminitis , just low grade - and very footy. Yes all four hooves showed a large event line.

Have you used Pramox?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Pramox is the equivalent to Quest Plus. It contains Praziquantel, which causes changes in glucose levels in rats, but is not tested/ proven in horses, but Dr.Kellon from the IR/Cushings group cautions against it's use.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

I'v never have used pramox,but use quest plus twice a year. Horses come up foot sore for about a week. Worst soreness is in the spring give a little bute and they improve but still sore. 

So i do my worming before riding season in spring and after riding season in fall.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

jazzy475 said:


> I'v never have used pramox,but use quest plus twice a year. Horses come up foot sore for about a week. Worst soreness is in the spring give a little bute and they improve but still sore.
> 
> So i do my worming before riding season in spring and after riding season in fall.


 So why are you still using it then???


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

deserthorsewoman said:


> So why are you still using it then???



Because it takes care of tape worms which are a problem in our area. They react to vaccines same way. Have to be vaccinated with 5 way, rabies and westnile. Indoor area i ride at requires it have to have proof they are current on vaccines proof has to come from a vet.:wink:


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Luv equins said:


> Much likey. Probably. You can use diatomaceous earth!


Why is DE the answer to every problem? Even to non-worming topics...

@Natisha, what do you mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

jazzy475 said:


> Because it takes care of tape worms which are a problem in our area. They react to vaccines same way. Have to be vaccinated with 5 way, rabies and westnile. Indoor area i ride at requires it have to have proof they are current on vaccines proof has to come from a vet.:wink:


 There is a safe way for tapes....4 weeks of double dose daily dewormer 2x-strength, Strongid 2x, for example.
Vaccines can be given in single doses, not 5-way, 2weeks apart. Much easier on the system. 
This is maybe not as convenient, but definitely safer.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have used the Pramox equivalent (Quest Plus) each year on a horse with IR and on one with Cushings as I've had/got one of each here and had no signs at all of laminitis in either horse
It is a wormer that you do have to be very careful of when you calculate correct dosage 
If a horse did have encysted worms or any other large burden of worms that were were suddenly killed by a wormer then that could cause enough of a digestive upset to give slight colic or toxicity that would result in laminitis
The problem then would be the worms and not the wormer though
This is from the info sheet for Equest Pramox and is the same on Quest Plus
QUOTE:
_In case of very high worm burdens, destruction of the parasites may cause a mild transient colic and loose faeces in the treated horse._

Though compared to the risks of not treating encysted worms
QUOTE
_Long term, small redworm infestation can cause serious damage to the intestinal wall, reducing the horse’s ability to absorb nutrients. The horse may become a chronic ‘bad doer’, and in some cases, a severe infestation can be fatal._
_In the active stage of redworm development, typically in spring and summer, the larvae can rapidly reach maturity, even within 5-6 weeks. However, this worm also has a unique attribute whereby the larvae can invade the intestinal wall and lie dormant. From here they wait for a suitable trigger to reactivate and continue developing to the adult worm. Such a trigger for reactivation can be the change in season from winter to spring and the larvae then all undergo a ‘mass emergence’ from the gut wall. From this mass emergence, severe disease and even death can result in affected horses. Signs of infection with cyathostome spp. can range from weight loss and diarrhoea through to colic and death, depending on the level of infection._
_Encysted larvae can comprise up to 90% of the total redworm burden, but can be hard to detect as they are encapsulated within the intestinal wall. *Monitoring methods such as faecal egg counting (FEC) are very useful as a monitor of worm infection when used as part of a worming plan however they can give a false negative result for the level of small redworm infection as these encysted stages will not be detected. *_

And then the risks associated with untreated tapeworm:

QUOTE:
_81 percent of ileal impactions (a blockage at the end of the small intestine, commonly referred to as an impaction colic) are associated with tapeworms.
_
_22 percent of spasmodic (gas) colics are tapeworm-related.
_
_Ileocecal intussusception (a serious, surgical form of colic where one part of the intestine telescopes into another) is almost always caused by tapeworm infection.
_
_On average, more than 54 percent of horses in the United States have been exposed to tapeworms, including 96 percent of horses in the upper Midwest, more than 80 percent of horses in some Southern regions, and 56 percent of horses in the northern Plains and Mountain regions. Even in the lowest-risk areas of the West Coast, at least one out of every 10 horses has tapeworm exposure. _

Tapeworm the same as encysted worms can't be detected in a fecal count


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I use Equest to kill encysted redworms, it is only the combination of tapeworm and encysted worm treatment in Pramox that is the problem...Pramox is a very strong wormer with two powerful chemicals involved( Moxidectin and Praziquantel.. ) . Many members of barefoot forums in the UK will not use Pramox but instead use two separate wormers.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Roman said:


> Why is DE the answer to every problem? Even to non-worming topics...
> 
> @Natisha, what do you mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The vinyl records?
Music used to be played on records (I'm sure you've seen them) with a needle running in the vinyl grooves. After a while they tended to skip which caused a repeating of whatever sound it was stuck on,stuckonstuckonstuckon. Really annoying & after bumping it a bit it would sometimes go on but always tended to skip at the same spots until you finally gave up & threw the record away. Thus it's said that some people sound like a broken record.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Equest in the UK is the same as Quest here in the US
Equest Pramox in the UK is the same as Quest Plus here

I personally haven't had any problems with it but its simple enough to use the actives separately with a few weeks between them if the combination wormer is likely to cause any upsets to trigger a laminitis attack


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Equest in the UK is the same as Quest here in the US
> Equest Pramox in the UK is the same as Quest Plus here
> 
> I personally haven't had any problems with it but its simple enough to use the actives separately with a few weeks between them if the combination wormer is likely to cause any upsets to trigger a laminitis attack


 Absolutely and that is what I do. It is only Pramox that is the problem one.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

deserthorsewoman said:


> There is a safe way for tapes....4 weeks of double dose daily dewormer 2x-strength, Strongid 2x, for example.
> Vaccines can be given in single doses, not 5-way, 2weeks apart. Much easier on the system.
> This is maybe not as convenient, but definitely safer.



I'v been told only chemical dewormer that kills tapes is praziquantel. Strongid 2x doesn't claim to take care of tapes. Have two horses that wont eat dewormer mixed with feed. 

Doing single vaccines don't know horses have to be up to date by beginning of march. They are already done this year foot soreness lasted only a week,no heat no pulse. :wink:


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Something you can all do to protect your horses from hormone related problems is to STOP FEEDING PRODUCTS WITH SOY IN THEM.

Get online and research the side effects of Soy - also good for yourselves to stop eating products with Soy in them.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Jazzy - A double dose of Strongid P was always the effective 'go to' wormer for tapeworm used in the UK. I never had trouble with it - it just cost more because you need to buy 2 packs (UK link but only posting for info)
Strongid P Paste [1012] - Â£9.90 : Wormers-direct.co.uk, Horse wormers direct,UK sales and horse worming guidance and advice Tel 0844 808 6070

Horses/ponies were getting laminitis long before soy was ever used in feeds - as far as diet related goes sugar and starch are the enemies but where its related to a digestive upset - well anything can cause that
I eat quite a lot of soy because I don't eat meat and have never had any problems but different people have different food sensitivities you just have to identify which are yours and avoid them


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

jaydee said:


> Jazzy - A double dose of Strongid P was always the effective 'go to' wormer for tapeworm used in the UK. I never had trouble with it - it just cost more because you need to buy 2 packs (UK link but only posting for info)
> Strongid P Paste [1012] - Â£9.90 : Wormers-direct.co.uk, Horse wormers direct,UK sales and horse worming guidance and advice Tel 0844 808 6070
> 
> 
> Didn't know that,i'll do the strongid P this fall then,was always told praziquantel was the one to use for tapes. Doing two tubes of the strongid ,would be easier then 4 weeks of strongid x2 daily dewormer.:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

^^ that.
I had a filly that colicked off and on, for apparently no reason. Friend of mine had her full sister, same breeder, same thing. Both got dewormed with double dose Strongid and never colicked again. And yes,I found a bunch of dead tapeworm segments in her poop. That was long before Praziquantel was used in horses.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

That really is good to know about the Strongid paste, I had no clue about that either, it was always use the combo paste and you're good.

Of course I've never had a reaction from the Quest Plus, so maybe I've been lucky. I should add that the horses had no known metabolic or laminitic issues either though. I will be filing the Strongid thing away for just in case.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Roman said:


> Why is DE the answer to every problem? Even to non-worming topics...


Have you not heard of snake oil Roman??  But seriously, bit like Manuka honey, there are many & varied benefits & uses for it.


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## MikeZulch (Mar 15, 2015)

Thank You everyone for your insight. I have gleaned a couple of things from these replies.
Laminitis, Footiness, Praziquantel, Pramox and many more are new avenues to look into.

I was overwhelmed by the response, but again, Thank you


Michael Zulch
Elms College Biology
What's the Scoop on Poop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq6aeSmRToI
[email protected]


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Jazzy - A double dose of Strongid P was always the effective 'go to' wormer for tapeworm used in the UK. I never had trouble with it - it just cost more because you need to buy 2 packs (UK link but only posting for info)
> Strongid P Paste [1012] - Â£9.90 : Wormers-direct.co.uk, Horse wormers direct,UK sales and horse worming guidance and advice Tel 0844 808 6070
> 
> Horses/ponies were getting laminitis long before soy was ever used in feeds - as far as diet related goes sugar and starch are the enemies but where its related to a digestive upset - well anything can cause that
> I eat quite a lot of soy because I don't eat meat and have never had any problems but different people have different food sensitivities you just have to identify which are yours and avoid them


Go and google the bad side of Soy - are you aware that it is extremely poisonous and that it has to go through so much treatment before it is safe for us to eat? 

Soy does not cause the laminitis but it causes problems with the metabolic system, it affects the hormones and all the related areas the hormones work on.

We did not have the current multitude of metabolic problems that we see now and laminitis was something overweight native ponies got when they got out of their fields and went on a feed room raid! 

Now we see it in all breeds and all ages. Soy also depresses the immune system.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can remember many native ponies in the 50's and 60's getting laminitis when people bought them and thought they could turn them out to live like cattle on lush grazing - the difference between then and now is that they were sent off to the slaughter yard or the kennels to be shot the moment they were no use to anyone so never lived long enough to develop Cushings - and no one even knew what IR in horses was
As for all that preparation to make them safe - have you never grown or bought and eaten Edamame soy beans straight from the pod - I eat them regularly and so far not been poisoned!!!


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