# Dangerous Advice!



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree with you (at least I think I do). Helmets are not to make up for a lack of horsemanship skills. 

I trail rode without a helmet for YEARS. Up and down mountains. Through city streets, everywhere. But just recently I have started wearing a helmet. Not because my horsemanship has backslide- I am actually a much better rider than I used to be when I rode everywhere without one. But because I now have a yearling, and I know ponying him out increases my risks of a wreck. And now that I have a helmet that I find comfortable and attractive, I say heck, why not wear it on every ride?

Making the argument that someone is a good rider and therefore doesn't need a helmet is kind of stupid. It's like saying that you don't need to wear a seat-belt because you are a good driver. Well, even a good driver can have someone else hit them or slide off the road in icy weather. A good rider can have an accident through no fault of their riding. 

BUT, I am pro-choice when it comes to helmets. I think it is a personal decision based on your comfort level with your horses and how much danger you perceive yourself to be in.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am pro-choice too, even in regard to seat belts. But I think these whom many people--for good or for ill--see as experts don't advise them to use helmets and even go on--in word and deed--to imply that helmets are bad or not needed are being irresponsible.

And since I mentioned RG, I will say that I am all on board for his basic philosophy of horses. But the more I watched, the less impressed with him I got. He got into an embroilment with a woman and published her name, place of residence and email on his website, tacitly encouraging others to harrass her. (Posting someone's info on a website without consent is a dangerous business, especially when you are potentially starting fires in the dark woods of the internet--and "she made me mad first" is not an excuse for putting her at risk.) And then I stopped watching altogether after seeing him endanger himself (his business) and two horses in his video on the "One Rein Stop" by charging one horse at another which was rolling on the ground. The latter flipped up with a mighty kick, barely missing a HELMETLESS head.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DSJ46 said:


> I am pro-choice too, even in regard to seat belts. But I think these whom many people--for good or for ill--see as experts don't advise them to use helmets and even go on--in word and deed--to imply that helmets are bad or not needed are being irresponsible.
> 
> *I agree! To discourage someone from wearing safety equipment is almost like having their blood on your hands. If they choose not to wear it, that is their choice. But I would never discourage someone from wearing something that could potentially save their life.*
> 
> And since I mentioned RG, I will say that I am all on board for his basic philosophy of horses. But the more I watched, the less impressed with him I got. He got into an embroilment with a woman and published her name, place of residence and email on his website, tacitly encouraging others to harrass her. (Posting someone's info on a website without consent is a dangerous business, especially when you are potentially starting fires in the dark woods of the internet--and "she made me mad first" is not an excuse for putting her at risk.) And then I stopped watching altogether after seeing him endanger himself (his business) and two horses in his video on the "One Rein Stop" by charging one horse at another which was rolling on the ground. The latter flipped up with a mighty kick, barely missing a HELMETLESS head.


*I have never even heard of the "RG" in question. If I felt like Googling him, I would, but I don't even feel the need to. :lol:*


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

R ick G ore. His early vids are great, and his horse philosophy is great. But he has increasingly become a Jerry Springer parody of his former self, many of his later vids encouraging controversy, and his misogyny is notorious.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I understand why some people choose to go without a helmet, but I cannot imagine encouraging someone to do so. I've ridden calm horses in an arena without a helmet, but my mare is way too spooky and the trails around here far too rocky for me to consider going without. I've only got one noggin, and it already has few enough active brain cells left in it...


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Neither of them actually says "DON'T wear a helmet," but they both definitely say, more or less in word and definitely in deed, that helmets are not necessary and that you can become a good enough rider not to need one. There are a lot of kids riding, and they need to be encouraged to wear helmets, and the best way is for adults to set an example. Seatbelts save lives, and so do helmets, and you will never become such a great driver that you can never have an accident, and the same goes for horseback riding.


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## FledgeOfNarnia (Apr 18, 2008)

It's almost like the mentality of wearing helmets show a weakness in horsemanship. You don't wear a helmet because you're so good in riding, but because it's safer in that you can't control everything or know everything that will happen.

When I was younger, I wished I could ride without a helmet, some of my friends did. But now I realize that's just dumb . . .not calling my friends dumb . . .but it's not "cool" to not wear a helmet. It's dangerous. So it's unfortunate that these horsemen are not thinking of the safety of their riders first.


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## horseloverd2 (Jan 23, 2009)

There was a guy here just recently who died in a skateboarding accident because he wasn't wearing his helmet. Granted it is a little different than riding horses but it does go to show that no matter how experienced you are in something there are always risks involved. The area he fell off at was some place he skated all the time in, too. Wasn't doing tricks as far as they know. And he was experienced. (But young and probably overconfident)

I think Parelli and the RG guy have the same thought in mind: "I hate wearing helmets, so I'm going to come up with some lame excuse why they are unneeded so I don't lose credibility."

Just my two cents.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Skipping a helmet isn't a particularly dangerous act for many riders. The vast majority of head injuries come in jumping. Anyone who jumps, including those who wear helmets, engages in an activity with a much higher risk of head injury than those going bare-headed but not jumping (jumping increases the risk at least 10-fold, while wearing a helmet cuts it only about 50%).

That is why it should be an individual's choice. But a helmet doesn't increase the risk for any riding, so discouraging someone from wearing a helmet is stupid and arguably immoral. And a 50% decrease, even if it is from 2% down to 1%, isn't bad for a $50 investment.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Wow, DSJ! Do they really say so?! Of course helmet will NOT make you a good rider, but using it as an argument to discourage people (especially beginners)... I just have no words how dumb one can be to say that... Then because bridle and saddle doesn't make us good riders either lets all ride bridleless and bareback!


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## SkyeAngel (Sep 8, 2010)

Eurgh, Don't they realise kids are listening to them? Young, impressionable, innocent kids. Like most of you, I am pro-choice. My personal choice is that I wear a helmet EVERYtime I ride. Let me tell you there have been a couple of times I have been pretty glad of it too!

I remember hacking out with my mum once, we were both wearing helmets. We were trotting along the road, and mid-post one of my mum's stirrup leathers came off the saddle, bless her she lost balance and hit the tarmac, pretty much head-first. She was concussed, and that was with a helmet on! I think without it, she might have died. Honestly.

If I ever had kids and they wanted to ride, my kids would not get on a horse without a helmet until they are 18. THEN they can do as they wish. 

I really don't have a problem with anyone choosing not to wear a helmet. But I really don't think people should be out there discouraging it. That's so irresponsble as role-models. Others look up to these people, IMO kids particularly are not always capable of making a fully-informed desicion. If these people don't want to wear helmets, fine to them. But I feel they should be promoting _safety _to all their followers. Not encouraging them to put themselves at risk. 

Just my thoughts. :wink:


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

I am pro choice here, but I will say that, at least in my state, kids are required to wear them anyway right? I am 18 so I don't wear one, or worry about getting caught without one. I cannot find a comfortable one that doesn't make me sweat to death or make me look like alien-head lol. But my mares are so good. the only time I wear one is when I'm working with Kip- a VERY rowdy horse with absolutely no breaks at a boarding facility I work at.


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## SkyeAngel (Sep 8, 2010)

In the UK childre under 14 are required to wear a helmet by law, however I have seen cases where this is ignored or not enforced. Also, I believe that may be only on the roads as it is in the highway code? I'm not sure. It also states: "These requirements do not apply to a child who is a follower of the Sikh religion while wearing a turban."

As far as i'm aware helmets are not required for children by law in EVERY US state, although this is the case in New York and Florida, at least. (those are the only ones i'm sure of)


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

I am pro choice when it comes to helmet use for adults. For kids, I think we need to protect them as best we can. 
I wear a helmet when doing speed events or when riding young horses. I don't always wear one otherwise, but I would never discourage the use. 
As public figures, people like RG & Parelli need to just come out and say that they don't like wearing a helmet, so they don't. They don't need to be making excuses for not wearing one or implying that they aren't worth wearing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I am also pro-choice on wearing a helmet. I haven't worn one in years and only then did so for one year after they changed the laws about youth being required to wear one. Prior to that when I rode english, I wore a dress cap. The laws have since been changed that a helmet is required for anyone under 18 while riding, at least at 4-H events and on their grounds. My daughter & husband both wear one every time they ride, it's a requirement for my daughter and my hubby chooses to wear one. I require anyone regardless of age that rides here on their horse or mine to wear one, not only lesson students but clients who also have their horses in for training. What they do when they go home is their business, but in my barn if they want to ride they wear one. (unless they want to pay for my liability policy, haven't had any takers on that one yet....)

I just can't believe any responsible adult, especially one that labels themselves a trainer to suggest not wearing one. I've also seen the personal attacks put out by RG. The other thing about him that got me was a video & article of his I had emailed to me a long time ago about why women aren't successful with horses, that really got my blood boiling. Sad to say that I think he probably was/is a fairly competent horseman, but his extreme views & antics make him read idiot to me.....


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I just can't believe any responsible adult, especially one that labels themselves a trainer to suggest not wearing one.


I totally agree.
And to make it sound like if you are a real horseman you do not need one just makes it even worse.


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## Snowkicker (Dec 23, 2009)

I have a good friend that would have been dead last summer if she had not been wearing one when her horse reared and came over backwards. She showed me the mangled remains of her helmet and I became a believer. I even went out and bought a new helmet as the one I was using for my lessons was old and had a dent or two in it. When I started giving lessons this year I made sure to buy a helmet in each size. You can't ride here if you don't wear one.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

I'm all for helmets when you're on the back of a horse. I used to ride at a barn which required every single person ON SITE to wear a helmet. They might not be near a horse, but they had to have a helmet on. I will always wear a helmet while riding a horse, but I refuse to wear one if I'm just grooming or mucking a stall.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For safety statistics involving wearing/not wearing helmets, I posted a thread a while back with some studies:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/helmets-injuries-some-studies-long-81416/

Anyone riding on my property wears a helmet, and my daughter doesn't get a choice either. Anywhere else, I'm happy to let folks decide for themselves.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Giving people the option is very different than saying 'if you were a real horseman you would not need one'.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes, Fledge. I think you have it. They want to put out their vids, but they still want to look cool. Linda Parelli was thrown while jumping helmetless a year or so ago and was unconscious on the ground for a while. And I wear a helmet not only as a safety measure for myself but as a good example for my kids.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes, MHFoundation. That is another thing that puts me off about RG. I don't know if the dude's wife left him for the mailman or what, but he rails on women, one way or another, in nearly every vid now. Like I said, his early vids are great, and his philosophy on horses is great, but his ego is getting the better of him. He rants, he condescends, he tells women they had better have "their big girl panties on" to watch his videos, but then, like a coward, he blocks anyone who criticises him and even, on his website, encourages his followers to harrass a woman with whom he had a dispute, revealing her personal info. in the process.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW (and I had never heard of this guy until this thread):

"1. Between 1999-2002 there were 76 fatal injuries to youth under 20 years. The most frequent cause of death and serious injury is head injuries.
2. Over 23,000 youth (under 20) are injured every year.
3. The severity of equestrian injuries is greater than other sports-related injuries.
4. Between 20% - 30% of the injuries are while dismounted while leading, grooming or playing around the horse – and most of those are by being kicked.
Let's bring this down to earth - what should we do about it?
*Here are a few points you can ponder:*
1. *To wear or not to wear a hard shell helmet*. With so many injuries and deaths caused by head trauma it can literally save your life. I know it's not sexy and all. But why do you think football players, motorcycle riders and race car drivers wear helmets? I do not wear a helmet unless working with a known bucker or troubled horse. My choice." - Rick Gore

Horsemanship-Think Like a Horse-Rick Gore Horsemanship

But he also writes this:

"I love horses, but they are freaking DANGEROUS. Don't underestimate the gravity of this statement. They will kill themselves if they are scared and trapped, if they think they can get away. It is their nature. So people want to wear a plastic helmet and feel safe. A helmet will not stop your neck or back from getting broke. It will not stop you from breaking a hip or leg. It will not help keep you stay in the saddle or stop your from being dragged with a foot in the stirrup when you fall off. A helmet gives a "false since of security" and causes people to do things they would not normally do without a helmet, because they FEEL safe. This is bad when it comes to horses. A horse does not care if your head is protected or if you ride him in a Styrofoam body suit. If he gets nervous, scared or feels you are not in control and you are putting his safety in jeopardy, he will take charge and react. And when he does it will be with extreme force and strength and you and your safety will be of no consideration to him."

Horsemanship-Think Like a Horse-Rick Gore Horsemanship

Speaking for myself only, I have never said to myself, "Since I've got a helmet on, I'm safe!" I've had two falls, one with and one without a helmet, and on the one without I landed about 18 inches from rocks that would have killed or crippled me if I had landed there with either back or head. That was why I started wearing helmets. It would not have hurt, and it may have helped.

When I had to get off Mia while moving a couple of months back, I was glad I had a helmet - but I needed to get off regardless. She was getting more agitated, not less, and staying on longer wasn't going to make things better. I didn't make the decision based on wearing a helmet, but I was sure glad I was - although I landed on my feet. (And as soon as Mia saw me, she came back and wanted me to take care of her...so why not while I was on her back? Oh well.)

Anyone saying 'I wear a helmet, I am invincible!' would deserve what they get, but who says it? :shock:


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

DSJ46 said:


> I don't know if the dude's wife left him for the mailman or what, but he rails on women, one way or another, in nearly every vid now.


She might have and if she hasn't maybe she should :rofl:


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

BS MS His latest video certainly seems to be giving certain of his followers the idea that horse riding helmets are bad--perhaps because the video is called "Why Horse Riding Helmets Are Bad." (while you are on his website, see how he encourages the harrassment of the woman with whom he had a dispute) Watch the vid--the overall tone is anti-helmet (I think there's some anti-woman in there too), despite him half heartedly saying "I am not telling you not to wear a helmet..." a couple of times. (Overall tone often speaks louder than words.) Also see if there is anything on his site about charging a mounted horse at a horse rolling on the ground, like he does in his "One Rein Stop" video. In the end, I think the guy could have been a great video instructor. No matter what the guy has in the discipline of riding, he doesn't seem to have much in the way of self-discipline, and ego often overrides genius.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I love cars, but they are freaking DANGEROUS. Don't underestimate the gravity of this statement. They will crash if a tire blows, and some lighter ones have flipped simply from the wind getting under them. It is their nature. So people want to wear a cloth seat belt and feel safe. A seat belt will not stop a broken window from cutting your face up or a crushed piece of car metal going through your skull. It will not stop you from breaking a hip or leg. It will not help if the car flips and the roof caves into your head. A seat belt gives a "false since of security" and causes people to drive faster than they normally do without a seat belt, because they FEEL safe. This is bad when it comes to cars. A car does not care if your head is protected or if you ride in it in a Styrofoam body suit. If it flips, it will flip, and if it explodes, it will explode. And when it does it will be with extreme force and strength and you and your safety will be of no consideration to it.

This is Gore's argument EXACTLY. Now, you tell me--HAVE I MADE A GOOD ARGUMENT AGAINST WEARING A SEATBELT OR MAKING A CHILD WEAR A SEATBELT??? Or is most of this argument simply based in the logical falacy of "begging the question"?

AND WHAT ABOUT ACCIDENTS, ON HORSES AND IN CARS, THAT OCCUR DUE TO FREAK OF NATURE OR SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT? Gore can not defend his position here! (and if you bring this up, or anything else he views as remotely critical, on youtube or on his site, you are blocked and mocked)


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

and just to keep this in mind, I am free choice...I don't believe the government should tell me when to wear a helmet, or a seatbelt, for that matter...but helmets, like seatbelts, clearly save lives and should be used


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Wait...I have another one (and you can begin to see where the logic breaks down... Again, using Gore's riding logic and many of the words in the quote BSMS cited...)

I love sex, but it is freaking DANGEROUS. Don't underestimate the gravity of this statement. Sex causes unwanted pregnancies and you can end up dead from certain diseases. It is the nature of sex. So people want to wear a latex condom and feel safe. A condom will not stop your wife from finding out you are cheating, and it will not protect you against the crabs. It will not stop you from breaking a hip or leg during particularly wild sex. It will not help if the condom itself breaks. A condom gives a "false since of security" and causes people to have sex more casually than they normally do without a condom, because they FEEL safe. This is bad when it comes to sex. Sex does not care if your head is protected or if you do in it in a Styrofoam body suit. (Yeah, that works!) If you have a heart attack during, you have a heart attack during, and if your wife finds out, your wife finds out. A condom will not help you. And when your wife does find out she will punish you with extreme force and strength and you and your safety will be of no consideration to her.

Good argument for unprotected sex?

The "logic" goes like this:

Argument: "I don't want to do X."
Counter argument: "But X will protect you against A."
Argument: "But X will not protect you against B, C, D, E F... so it is not necessary."
Bad logic. It still protects against A, and A, if it is a freak head injury, is a very important thing to protect against.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

WOW! Just WOW! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

He says, "I think they do more damage than good...Here's why helmets are bad, people!" The studies I pointed out earlier indicate a 50% reduction in head injuries when helmets are used. Even if you aren't at high risk for a head injury, a 50% reduction is not bad.

Yes, good riding skills are better than just wearing a piece of equipment, but you cannot learn to ride a horse without actually BEING on a horse. And no matter how much experience you have, can you guarantee you will not ever fall? That Ol' Bombproof doesn't have at least one explosion left in him?

If someone wants to ride without a helmet, all they need to do for my satisfaction is say they understand and accept the risk. It is like jumping - that increases the risk even more, but folks can understand and accept that risk. But to say a helmet is *worse* than going without?

"A bit causes pain and increases your chance of getting hurt, I think."

Yeah, I guess that is why they have been in use for 3000 years. I couldn't stand to listen to the end. Now I need to find a way to wash off stupidity. I haven't lost so many brain cells in such a short time since I tried to watch the movie "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea"!


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Scary, isn't he? And if you find that stupidity wash, please let me know where to purchase it. I come in contact with a lot of it during the course of a day. ; )

"...you cannot learn to ride a horse without actually BEING on a horse." Tremendously good argument, BSMS.

He hasn't always been like this, by the way. But his ego is causing him to find outlandish arguments for doing things all his way--and no other way is acceptable.

I can't resist...watch this jackass 14:25 min. into this long-winded (pun intended!) video!


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

I fail to see the point of this video...not why it was posted, but just what his point is???? He doesn't explain very well...he sort of jumps around :/ And what s the point of the other horse.... And whats with laughing all the time!!! He did it in the last video too...is he on something????


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Courtney Dye, champion dressage rider. Was she a good enough rider? She has second thoughts, I am sure, as she recoveres from her devastating brain injuries.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

DSJ46 said:


> Wait...I have another one (and you can begin to see where the logic breaks down... Again, using Gore's riding logic and many of the words in the quote BSMS cited...)
> 
> I love sex, but it is freaking DANGEROUS. Don't underestimate the gravity of this statement. Sex causes unwanted pregnancies and you can end up dead from certain diseases. It is the nature of sex. So people want to wear a latex condom and feel safe. A condom will not stop your wife from finding out you are cheating, and it will not protect you against the crabs. It will not stop you from breaking a hip or leg during particularly wild sex. It will not help if the condom itself breaks. A condom gives a "false since of security" and causes people to have sex more casually than they normally do without a condom, because they FEEL safe. This is bad when it comes to sex. Sex does not care if your head is protected or if you do in it in a Styrofoam body suit. (Yeah, that works!) If you have a heart attack during, you have a heart attack during, and if your wife finds out, your wife finds out. A condom will not help you. And when your wife does find out she will punish you with extreme force and strength and you and your safety will be of no consideration to her.
> 
> ...


****!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

That guy is heffed up on loof balls. What a narcissistic jabber jaw that likes to hear himself talk. Someone needs to teach him how to ride a canter.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Sahara said:


> ...Someone needs to teach him how to ride a canter.


That was intentional. He's just using the horse's motion to air out his crotch. < / sarcasm >

My daughter's first canter was this last week, and she stayed in the saddle a lot better than that!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DSJ46 said:


> Scary, isn't he? And if you find that stupidity wash, please let me know where to purchase it. I come in contact with a lot of it during the course of a day. ; )
> 
> "...you cannot learn to ride a horse without actually BEING on a horse." Tremendously good argument, BSMS.
> 
> ...



Do you have something personal with this trainer?????

There are tons out there just as bad or worse so wondering if there is a personal matter here?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Spyder... Well, sort of. I am disturbed at how drawn in I was by his early videos and his long talks about the philosophy of horses. I even sent him this long, gushing email about how we thought exactly the same about "always listening to the horse" and so forth. And then as I progressed in his videos and saw some of the things on-line about how he treated people and watched as he became this gigantic megalomanic over time and the ranting against women, and then that vid I posted in which he charges the rolling horse and the fact that he blocks anyone who even slightly disagrees with him and then mocks that person in the next video--and then the vid on helmets! It was too much... I guess, to use another metaphor, I had a big, satisfying meal of this guy's early work, and then, as I kept eating, I got sicker and sicker. I guess I came here to vomit it all up. (Ick!) And I guess I was upset that I got so suckered into his world (and that hundreds of others have too), and I needed to come here and have people confirm that this guy really was a nut job. Thanks for that, forum, by the way! ; ) I feel better.


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## Jessskater (Mar 16, 2011)

I searched him up and I already dislike him -.-


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