# Drugging at shows



## .Delete.

ACE-ing a horse is becoming more and more accepted...it's very common


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## Siren

Yup. Unfortunately becoming very common. I worked at one of the top barns in Canada and, while they didn't use ace before a show, there was one horse in particular that was not ever ridden without being given chill first. That horse was nuts and needed it so I never had a problem with it... Until someone came to look at the horse and they tried to sell it as a calm hunter jumper for a mid level, fairly timid rider without disclosing that this horse was vicious and unpredictable when he didn't get his chill...... 

It's just part and parcel with the show world unfortunately... It is what it is. At least you know better but it's not always illegal to use ace so if your friend and their trainer aren't breaking any rules, it all comes down to personal choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4horses

Very common I'm afraid. Why many shows are drug testing horses. The problem is there are too many drugs and not enough enforcement.

I knew a trainer who never trained his horses to load. He would drug them for every trailer ride to and from the shows. He also gave banamine for every colic instead of calling the vet. He said his horses didn't live past 20. 

The rest of the time they were stuck in stalls with no turnout. Terrible way to live.


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## farmpony84

I have a friend that aces for all of her shows. I don't think any of the local level shows do any sort of testing. People don't realize that what they are doing is quite unsafe. Horses that have been aced tend to trip and stumble. They also don't retain any of the "training" that they might receive while aced so really, the main reason people do it, is to cheat.

Breed shows test for drugs fairly often...


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## Saddlebag

One day pee tests will be done at the shows too. I over heard one lady "(profanity) the bute is wearing off". The horse was beginning to limp. Question regarding Ace. When my NH was trailered about 300 km his owner said she'd given him Ace. Now, there are two drugs called Ace. One is Acetazolamide (sp) and Acepromazine. Acetazolamide is a diuretic and is given to horses, especially an NH to get them to pee. Acepromazine has a tranquilizing effect. Perhaps the horse was a nervous hauler. I never did clarify this with his previous owner. It was a one time use. Can someone tell me how Acepromazine affects a horse, what to look for, etc.


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## farmpony84

Both types of Aces are illegal in shows unless your horse is HYPP/NH or HH and even then you have to fill out a form to declare the use before you show. As for Bute, certain amounts of it are usually legal in most shows.


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## .Delete.

I worked with a really well known HUS horse with my previous employer. He could not even be at a show without ACE. The problem was he was drugged almost his entire show career. He was a wildly successful in his day, but when he got older and turned into a youth horse it became a problem. When he wasn't drugged he was very hard to handle. Very spooky, would freak out randomly, etc. He would even have meltdowns in his stall....just randomly. 

There IMO is some serious long term effects to people doing this to horses often. An even at the breed shows people still do it and get away with it.


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## 40232

I used to work at an Arabian barn, where instead of using Ace, they used Melatonin. In my personal opinion, if a horse has to be drugged to be ridden and/or shown, it has no place being in the show ring.


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## BugZapper89

Its not your horse, hence its not your problem or business. This is how you become successful at the upper levels, by keeping your mouth shut and your nose out of what other trainers or riders are doing. My barn policy is exactly the same as the trainers I had coming up through the ranks " if its not your horse its not your business what they do or dont do to it". 
I show at the upper levels and I really dont care if someone has holes in their horses side from spurs or is shooting it up to hopefully be sound for a class or two. Its not my horse and I am not the rider on it. I mind my own business and get my job done with the horses under MY care. This keeps the stress levels down and a target off your back. While I show for the money, its really nice not to have to worry about getting railed, when you PO either another big trainer or worse yet a judge that is also a trainer.


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## Jumping4Joy

You're right ^. I'm not going to say anything. I'm definitely not at the upper levels by any means, even though I know quite a few professionals, but I know if I want to get there I should just keep my mouth shut. Thanks for all of the comments, guys!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

If I was competing against someone that was using drugs on their horse because it was the only way they could show it and they were beating me then I would certainly say something about it
The reason this stuff keeps going on is because too many people turn a blind eye. It's cheating and needs to be stopped
If speaking up might mean you being asked to leave the barn and you have no where else to go then you might have to think harder about it


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## trailhorserider

I know this won't make me popular, but where do you guys draw the line? Maybe you are only one step of away from being like the Big Lick people and soring? Because it helps you win and everyone is doing it so it must be okay? 

I would be ashamed of myself if I drugged my trail horse because I couldn't handle it. I would throw in the towel and say the horse is too much for me before I did that. And what I do doesn't effect other people like it does at a show. You guy don't consider that downright cheating? If that horse beat you, wouldn't you feel it was unfair?

I think it shows a serious lack of morals in both the riders and the trainers if this is considered the accepted norm. :-(

But then again, that's why I just ride for the fun of it. I actually have horses because I love horses. What a concept. :shock:

I know horses can be dangerous and get you hurt. But if we are drugging horses _just_ to win a ribbon, what's the point? If it acts up, well, crap happens and better luck next time. They are sensitive prey animals after all and we know that going in.

Say the hypothetical show horse, which has done well but been drugged most of it's career, then retires to the breeding shed. How do you even know if you want to breed to that horse? How do you know if it even has a good temperment and it's offspring will as well? How do you know you are not just breeding a nervous wreck? Ideally we should be breeding for a sound mind and body. People already breed horses of questionable soundness for the sake of showing. Now we have to worry about their mental health as well? 

Give me a good solid using horse any day. I don't care if it has papers or if it comes from the BLM (actually, I had one of those and he was the best horse I've ever ridden). I am starting to think all show bloodlines are a negative, the same way halter Quarter Horse bloodlines are a negative. :evil: 

I like the concept of showing. But the reality seems to be that when people focus on showing they ruin the breed they are showing.


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## waresbear

The association that sanctions the show has rules. Make sure they have a rule about drugging before you report. In most cases it's just best to keep your mouth shut. The ones who go running to the officials are looked down upon especially if there is no testing, ergo no proof. It just makes you look like a poor sport and word gets around, sad but true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintmered

Personally, I don't think ace is all that bad. If the horse is dangerous then that's ok. and by the way ace isn't given by a pill it is a liquid that could be given orally or in a shot.


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## COWCHICK77

trailhorserider said:


> I know this won't make me popular, but where do you guys draw the line? Maybe you are only one step of away from being like the Big Lick people and soring? Because it helps you win and everyone is doing it so it must be okay?
> 
> I would be ashamed of myself if I drugged my trail horse because I couldn't handle it. I would throw in the towel and say the horse is too much for me before I did that. And what I do doesn't effect other people like it does at a show. You guy don't consider that downright cheating? If that horse beat you, wouldn't you feel it was unfair?
> 
> I think it shows a serious lack of morals in both the riders and the trainers if this is considered the accepted norm. :-(
> 
> But then again, that's why I just ride for the fun of it. I actually have horses because I love horses. What a concept. :shock:
> 
> I know horses can be dangerous and get you hurt. But if we are drugging horses _just_ to win a ribbon, what's the point? If it acts up, well, crap happens and better luck next time. They are sensitive prey animals after all and we know that going in.
> 
> Say the hypothetical show horse, which has done well but been drugged most of it's career, then retires to the breeding shed. How do you even know if you want to breed to that horse? How do you know if it even has a good temperment and it's offspring will as well? How do you know you are not just breeding a nervous wreck? Ideally we should be breeding for a sound mind and body. People already breed horses of questionable soundness for the sake of showing. Now we have to worry about their mental health as well?
> 
> Give me a good solid using horse any day. I don't care if it has papers or if it comes from the BLM (actually, I had one of those and he was the best horse I've ever ridden). I am starting to think all show bloodlines are a negative, the same way halter Quarter Horse bloodlines are a negative. :evil:
> 
> I like the concept of showing. But the reality seems to be that when people focus on showing they ruin the breed they are showing.


Like Wares said some shows/assoc. it is legal and some it is not.
Do I think it is fair? Not really.
But I know that I didn't ACE my horse to get through a class or show and I relied on my training, had trust in my horse to do his job, rode to the best of my ability to place how I did. 
If the show didn't go well I go home and work on what needs to be fixed. Maybe my horse needs more exposure to the show/rodeo environment, maybe I need to change my warm up routine to get him focused. 
_One thing I have learned is that you show the horse you brought, you don't change your training in the warm up pen or do whatever(drugging) because you feel intimidated by what you see in the warm up pen. _It is the fastest way to ruin a good show horse and you are beat mentally before you make the show ring.

Please don't think that all show bloodlines have bad temperaments because some people ACE. I have a few horses that are bred decent that come from reined cowhorse/reining lines and even though they get excited at a show and a little charg-y on cattle I have never thought of ACE-ing to hopefully place better. In my opinion if someone has to ACE, either the time hasn't been put in to acclimate the horse to the pressures of showing or the horse simply doesn't have the temperament to make a solid show mount.


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## HorseMom1025

If my daughter cannot ride her horse at a show without drugs, then she has no business showing. We spend hours training both horse and child every week. The horse show is where she gets to test her progress. Drugging a horse is just like cheating on the test.

I will forgive bute for minor ailments, but I believe it is abuse if a horse is truly injured to bute them up and risk further injury all for a bit of satin or even $$$. The horse's welfare must be first. Does it suck to arrive at a show and realize your horse is lame? Yes. But I would rather not show and lose the money than cause our horse more pain and risk ruining her for life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BugZapper89

Ace if available in a tablet form and often used on stall rest horses. The normal dose is 2 to 4 tablets daily. 

Again, at the end of the day its best to just walk away. While I may not agree the way some trainers train and they may not like what I do either, we have the agreement to just mind our own business and let the chips fall where they may. If you are lucky, you will just be considered a nuisance and your life made uncomfortable, if you are not so lucky you or your horse may end up hurt and for what, because you stuck your nose where it shouldnt have been. Just walk away. Trust me, the ones relying on the drugs run into problems at some point. They either end up with a horse they misread and give too much, which can cause a crash and burn, or they dont give enough and their client becomes a yard dart in public.


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## farmpony84

I have said something before. I'm not the kind of person that screams abuse at someone with a harsh hand or even a quick temper. But I was at a show where an old man (who apparently is a very well known, very highly thought of trainer) had put cathedral bits in his horses mouths and then tied the reins to the saddle horn so tight they had their mouths wide open. It was awful to look at. He won his classes later that day so the people running the shows allowed it. I also heard comments from competitors, offended remarks that basically said you can cheat at this show and you won't get in trouble. I don't show there anymore and that's been hard on me because it's a really great series and tons of fun. 

I'm not worried about being blackballed at a show for reporting something that is wrong. Again, I'm not going to run and tattle because someone warms up in an illegal bit or uses bungees in a back ring. But drugging or major abuse should always be reported in my opinion and shame on the show or the association for allowing it. The next time I see something like what I saw that day, I'm going to snap a picture and mail it to the association. The rest is on them.

Standing back and doing nothing isn't the right thing to do, but I do completely understand where that could and does happen. and it's hard to blame someone or say they are wrong for standing by and watching because the chances that they will be blackballed over it are very likely....


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## farmpony84

paintmered said:


> Personally, I don't think ace is all that bad. If the horse is dangerous then that's ok. and by the way ace isn't given by a pill it is a liquid that could be given orally or in a shot.


Ace is also a pill and it can be dangerous for the horse because it can lowers the blood pressure . I've also seen aced horses trip a lot.


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## SorrelHorse

I feel like if you know how to handle a horse and how to season a young one properly, you are horseman enough to not need the ACE.

There were opportunities for me to drug Selena when I was trying to show her in reining. Probably would of had us winning. Instead I opted to work her through her insecurities and she became a great show horse. She still gets a little hot every now and then but I would trust her with a kid in the ring any day. If I had drugged her, she'd probably still need to be drugged for years to come.


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## rookie

I think its interesting that people decry the use of drugs in the thoroughbred racing world but think using drugs in a horse show is okay. Isn't it the same coin but different sides? I also think its a slippery slope. Ace is okay and a small amount of bute is okay, injecting hocks are okay but banamine is bad and forcing your horse to work through pain is bad. I think we we are going to tar one industry with the drugs are bad and need better/stronger enforcement that we should take that same brush to other areas of the equine industry. 

In my opinion, if you need to ace your horse to ride than you need to go back in training. Self control is important and can be/should be taught. I can see its value in horses (particularly young active horses) that are put on stall rest after an injury. Using a tranquilizer because your healthy horse is unmannerly is just poor training.


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## BugZapper89

Farmpony, if you are lucky you just get blackballed. I was at a show, three years ago, and stabled next to another trainer, who also holds a judges card. We had 14 stalls and they had about 20, so between the two of us we had an entire row. I swear the show management stuck me there, because we are a sure fire group to shut up and walk away. I dont ever think I have seen such a group of trash. 
If it was just one horse in their bunch, that was getting worked over well I might have figured it was just a tough nut, but no over half had spur holes in them. I am not talking some missing hair a little blood, I am talking finger deep holes. They had an assistant with them that did nothing but lunge horses for hours at a time all night long. They even had the row blocked at their stalls, so you had to walk all the way around the barn. This had the makings of the worst show ever. I spent the weekend just drinking my coffee, racking up our winnings, and enjoying our own group.
However, one of those must get involved people from a row over decided to stir the pot. Bad move on their part. By the end of the show , they had a hurt rider, who had been railed and word had got to the other judges about their running to the show management. The do gooders horses and riders were blacklisted and I have not seen that group since the beginning of last year, when I think they have finally given up trying show. However, the group of chaos is still going strong and winning. Do I agree with it, well no, but life is much happier for me and my group with our beer goggles on.


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## luvmydrafts

ACE is also unsafe for male horses so ive heard...if we are talking about the same ACE...acepromazine? that is serious stuff...i wouldnt feel safe on a horse drugged with that ive seen how it really knocks them out...that is crazy...


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## COWCHICK77

I know what you been BugZapper, with my extremely short stint in low level racing there were barn rows you just didn't walk down...

The show world is what you make of it in my opinion and it _all _isn't evil for the sake of winning a buckle/ribbon/check.
You can get ****ed about what other people do or you can enjoy what _you_ do within it. After all showing is basically paying for someone else's opinion. 
It truly never is completely fair or unbiased all the way across the board. 
I am not condoning abuse or drugging nor does every one or all big name trainers do it either. I enjoy showing and rodeoing and I know sometimes someone gets the upper hand by doing something shady. But I know that *I *did the right thing and shown to the best of my abilities.


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## BugZapper89

Cowchick, that pretty much sums it up. Showing is suppose to be fun for the clients and ammy and or youth exhibitors. Oddly enough, that group did have a wreck early this year and their client became a yard dart on a 50K horse. I guess they missed on the dose and it woke up. I have beaten them plenty, but they never bother or harass us. I much rather have it that way, then cause a scene at a show and while they may get a slap on the wrist, you are sure to get a lifetime of misery. I just keep them on my OFF list for prospects.


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## Dustbunny

:shock: Holy crap!!! This makes my hair stand on end.

I have been away from the show world a long time. Give me a good trail horse, the wide open spaces, and a nice day. Nothing to prove and no trail pals with a thought of competition.


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## waresbear

If you keep your attention on your horse, your performance and your coach, you don't have the attention to notice, nor care what others are doing. When I am showing, my focus is my horse and my performance, I have no idea what others are doing except when the gossips attempt to tell me, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear

Oh yeah, if it's after the show & we are having a beer & dinner post showing, I listen, with all ears. Yep, mybad!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84

BugZap, I don't know what kind of shows you are showing at but they sound like something I would want no part in. It's bad enough what I see at the breed shows I attend. The people at them though do not run around hurting other people. I've seen plenty and I walk away. I do not agree with it and it's not something I will be a part of. If I can't win a class on my own then I'm just going to be that girl that rides and never wins. But I'm not in it for the business, I'm in it for the fun and I have the money to spend. I don't think it's ok. I never will. It is what it is.


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## SouthernTrails

BugZapper89 said:


> Its not your horse, hence its not your problem or business. This is how you become successful at the upper levels, by keeping your mouth shut and your nose out of what other trainers or riders are doing. My barn policy is exactly the same as the trainers I had coming up through the ranks " if its not your horse its not your business what they do or dont do to it".


Sorry, giving a Horse Drugs to win at a Show is my Business if I am in that show.

Ignoring illegal activities or people cheating makes you no better than the ones doing it.

That is one of the problems today, people just ignore far too much that is wrong in this world :-(

JMHO 

.


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## Foxhunter

BugZapper89 said:


> Its not your horse, hence its not your problem or business. This is how you become successful at the upper levels, by keeping your mouth shut and your nose out of what other trainers or riders are doing. My barn policy is exactly the same as the trainers I had coming up through the ranks " if its not your horse its not your business what they do or dont do to it".
> I show at the upper levels and I really dont care if someone has holes in their horses side from spurs or is shooting it up to hopefully be sound for a class or two. Its not my horse and I am not the rider on it. I mind my own business and get my job done with the horses under MY care. This keeps the stress levels down and a target off your back. While I show for the money, its really nice not to have to worry about getting railed, when you PO either another big trainer or worse yet a judge that is also a trainer.




This is _exactly_ the reason _why_ such things continue to go on. People reckoning that it is none of their business what others do to their animals. 

Bad/cruel and cheating practises will continue to go on unless people stand up for the rules being adhered to - large or small shows. 

Personally I consider it totally gutless to turn a blind eye.


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## kiwigirl

I agree with Foxhunter. It is gutless people that are not willing to make their life uncomfortable for the sake of doing the right thing, that allow cruelty to be perpetuated. The wonderful attitude of: "as long as it's not happening to me, I don't give a rats ****". 

I was curious about the gait of Tennesse walking horses and ended up watching a couple of youtube videos on the practice of soring. I mean WTF? Seriously? That sort of thing can only become common practice if people who know better refuse to take action. And I know the argument is going to be that this is NOT common practice, and is only done by the few BAD people, blah blah blah. Well if you have, say, a random number of 400 people at an event and only 2 of them are soring, spurring, gagging, tying a horses tongue to its nuts for all I know, doesn't it seem ludicrous that 398 "good horse people" can not be bothered preventing those 2 bad eggs from mistreating their animals? So if the mistreatment of animals at shows seems to be an everyday occurrence, then the assumption has to be that there are a lot more bad eggs in the showing world than good eggs. 

I know this thread was about drugging horses for a show and I may have seemed to veer off on a tangent but I cant help wondering, at what point does a bit of "Harmless" drugging become something like soring? " Oh look, I gave 
Winston Watford Charles Mcghinty Hopkirk the third a pessary for constipation and now look at his marvelous head carriage! I think I might give him one before his next show!" Three years later Winston Watford Charles Mcghinty Hopkirk the third is destroyed because he kicked someone to death and it is discovered he had a ruptured bowel from one to many pessaries shoved up his bum. And sadly, horses dying from ruptured bowels reach epidemic proportions because quite a large portion of the showing world were envious of Winston's marvelous head carriage.

If you are prepared to turn a blind eye to the mistreatment of an animal that has no voice of its own and no escape from that treatment then you too are guilty of mistreating that animal. If you know better then you have to do better. There is no excuse to stand by and do nothing. If people within the show industry do nothing about the wrongful practices exhibited, in todays world where youtube and facebook are so prevalent, organizations such as PETA will step in - and it won't be pretty. And then all those who never actually did their horses wrong - but did nothing to stop the cruelty they saw at various shows are going to ***** and moan because suddenly everyone in the showing world is being thrown under the bus. I'm just saying.


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## Cherie

First of all, I have not read all of the posts on this. Secondly, we quit showing some 20 years ago because we did not like the change in styles of what was judged to be winning. I had shown both Quarter Horses and Arabians at a National level and quit hauling both. But, it is the judging and the styles that I blame, particularly in the Western World of AQHA showing.

The super slow, super low-headed style requires a horse to be trained and collected to a level that is not really 'natural'. It also requires a horse to learn to travel in a manners that is not useful for any other purpose outside of the show-ring. 

Now, to play the 'devil's advocate' here: If you want to show in this venue, only a very small percentage of horses can actually be trained to go that slow and look that relaxed and not get mad or cranky about it. So, trainers and riders can use 'lopers' that sometimes ride horses for 2 or 3 or even more hours at a lope to 'work them down' or they can chemically 'slow' them down with Dermosodan, Resurpine or cheap old ACE. They can drain blood from them to make them tired and anemic (no test can detect this) or ???? If you ride them long enough and hard enough to 'work' them down, you cripple many of them. Making them anemic destroys their immune system and makes them puny and susceptible to illness and other problems. Giving one a little chemical help is actually the lesser of several evils.

This goes right along with 'blocking tails'. Since judges mark a horse down so bad for a 'swish' of a tail and the training techniques to get these artificial gaits make so many horses 'ill' to the point that they wring their tail, I again, blame the judging. When a horse that travels naturally cannot win, the whole system get screwed up. 

So, I just left the AQHA show ring. So many people left showing, that ranch horse associations, stock horse association and foundation QH associations took off like a rocket. I can not longer show, but a fried near me is still showing in the Oklahoma Foundation Association and their last show had 900 entries. They are family friendly and horses are not tortured to be something so unnatural. AQHA is finally getting the message (after being told for more than 20 years) and have started putting in Ranch Pleasure, trail, etc. where horses can be shown at a show and still be useful for 'regular' riding.

If you do not like what has to be done to a horse to make it competitive, don't give them your time and money. I do not care if it is Arabians, QHs or TWHs, you do not HAVE to show against the trainers and riders that use practices you do not like, particularly when those practices are what make horses able to win. If you are competitive, get involved in mounted shooting, extreme trail, ranch or stock horse associations, etc. There are dozens of other venues where natural horses are shown only with 'training'. You, keeping your dollars out of the rat race is the only voice you really have. Put your dollars where they do not perpetuate what you hate. That is what I did. It turns out, I could make more money training horses to do what I liked than I could in the show ring. There is a HUGE demand for well-trained horses that anyone can ride for their own pleasure. I would bet there are a hundred or more people looking for a safe, well-trained, user-friendly horse for every one person looking for a horse to show. There is no reason to do what you do not like or do what is not good for a horse.

Would I turn in someone that is doing something that is unethical to win? Probably not -- since the alternative would probably be worse or more damaging to the horse. JMHO Cherie


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## COWCHICK77

Cherie said:


> So, I just left the AQHA show ring. So many people left showing, that ranch horse associations, stock horse association and foundation QH associations took off like a rocket. I can not longer show, but a fried near me is still showing in the Oklahoma Foundation Association and their last show had 900 entries. They are family friendly and horses are not tortured to be something so unnatural. AQHA is finally getting the message (after being told for more than 20 years) and have started putting in Ranch Pleasure, trail, etc. where horses can be shown at a show and still be useful for 'regular' riding.
> 
> If you do not like what has to be done to a horse to make it competitive, don't give them your time and money. I do not care if it is Arabians, QHs or TWHs, you do not HAVE to show against the trainers and riders that use practices you do not like, particularly when those practices are what make horses able to win. If you are competitive, get involved in mounted shooting, extreme trail, ranch or stock horse associations, etc. There are dozens of other venues where natural horses are shown only with 'training'. You, keeping your dollars out of the rat race is the only voice you really have. Put your dollars where they do not perpetuate what you hate. That is what I did. It turns out, I could make more money training horses to do what I liked than I could in the show ring. There is a HUGE demand for well-trained horses that anyone can ride for their own pleasure. I would bet there are a hundred or more people looking for a safe, well-trained, user-friendly horse for every one person looking for a horse to show. There is no reason to do what you do not like or do what is not good for a horse.


 
(slightly off topic)
I actually thought about showing AQHA this year because they have the ranch style classes. But we have to travel quite far and the payout doesn't make it worth it when we can travel the same distances to ranch rodeos that have stock horse events or stock horse assoc. shows that pay good! Good enough to make back entries and fuel. Also we are showing against other 'using' horses. 

I am not completely convinced that AQHA has gotten the hint with their declining show entries. I think they added the ranch horse classes because they seen it as a trend and wanted a piece of the pie. Hopefully I am wrong and they are trying to do the right thing.


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## trailhorserider

Cherie said:


> First of all, I have not read all of the posts on this. Secondly, we quit showing some 20 years ago because we did not like the change in styles of what was judged to be winning. I had shown both Quarter Horses and Arabians at a National level and quit hauling both. But, it is the judging and the styles that I blame, particularly in the Western World of AQHA showing.
> 
> The super slow, super low-headed style requires a horse to be trained and collected to a level that is not really 'natural'. It also requires a horse to learn to travel in a manners that is not useful for any other purpose outside of the show-ring.
> 
> Now, to play the 'devil's advocate' here: If you want to show in this venue, only a very small percentage of horses can actually be trained to go that slow and look that relaxed and not get mad or cranky about it. So, trainers and riders can use 'lopers' that sometimes ride horses for 2 or 3 or even more hours at a lope to 'work them down' or they can chemically 'slow' them down with Dermosodan, Resurpine or cheap old ACE. They can drain blood from them to make them tired and anemic (no test can detect this) or ???? If you ride them long enough and hard enough to 'work' them down, you cripple many of them. Making them anemic destroys their immune system and makes them puny and susceptible to illness and other problems. Giving one a little chemical help is actually the lesser of several evils.
> 
> This goes right along with 'blocking tails'. Since judges mark a horse down so bad for a 'swish' of a tail and the training techniques to get these artificial gaits make so many horses 'ill' to the point that they wring their tail, I again, blame the judging. When a horse that travels naturally cannot win, the whole system get screwed up.
> 
> So, I just left the AQHA show ring. So many people left showing, that ranch horse associations, stock horse association and foundation QH associations took off like a rocket. I can not longer show, but a fried near me is still showing in the Oklahoma Foundation Association and their last show had 900 entries. They are family friendly and horses are not tortured to be something so unnatural. AQHA is finally getting the message (after being told for more than 20 years) and have started putting in Ranch Pleasure, trail, etc. where horses can be shown at a show and still be useful for 'regular' riding.
> 
> If you do not like what has to be done to a horse to make it competitive, don't give them your time and money. I do not care if it is Arabians, QHs or TWHs, you do not HAVE to show against the trainers and riders that use practices you do not like, particularly when those practices are what make horses able to win. If you are competitive, get involved in mounted shooting, extreme trail, ranch or stock horse associations, etc. There are dozens of other venues where natural horses are shown only with 'training'. You, keeping your dollars out of the rat race is the only voice you really have. Put your dollars where they do not perpetuate what you hate. That is what I did. It turns out, I could make more money training horses to do what I liked than I could in the show ring. There is a HUGE demand for well-trained horses that anyone can ride for their own pleasure. I would bet there are a hundred or more people looking for a safe, well-trained, user-friendly horse for every one person looking for a horse to show. There is no reason to do what you do not like or do what is not good for a horse.
> 
> Would I turn in someone that is doing something that is unethical to win? Probably not -- since the alternative would probably be worse or more damaging to the horse. JMHO Cherie


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## SorrelHorse

As usual, Amen Cherie.


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## SorrelHorse

That is one reason why I barrel race now. I'm tired of the judges. I work for a man who has reined cowhorses and they're alright, I love riding them, but the thought of showing again and being around it makes me feel emotionally drained. I might play every now and then or take a colt to show, the thought was brought up that I should show our stud horse, but I don't know if that is something my heart is in anymore. I know a lot of people look down on barrel racers, but at least my horse is happy, healthy, and doing a fun job that she enjoys.


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## jaydee

I would feel that avoiding competing in an event because I knew someone in it was cheating by using drugs would be similar to cutting off my nose to spite my face if it was something I wanted to do and ignoring what they were doing would be as good as condoning it
And what happens if the horse gets sold to some unsuspecting person and finds out its a nutcase when they get it in the ring - maybe say 'not my business' but that unsuspecting person could be me or my child and suddenly it is my business.
The only way to stop all the drugging is for people to make a lot of noise about it if they are certain of their facts


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## Foxhunter

Unless something is done by the shows and the societies to stop this then it will continue forever.

I fully understand the 'old boy' network where people vote for those that have always done the running of the committees. Unless the members, who have a vote, are prepared to vote for those that are against detrimental practises and follow through with bans and heavy fines. 
It wouldn't happen instantly but over the course of a few years change would happen,

In the UK Shores were winning when they had feet that were so long and shoes on the length to make their feet look bigger. Very bad for the horses. It had gone on for years. 
Many people started to complain about this so the Shire Horse Society told all judges that horses with such long feet and bad farrier work, were not to be placed. Also farriers doing such shoeing were not to win Best Shod. It all stopped withing two seasons.


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## Horse Poor

Cherie said:


> I again, blame the judging. When a horse that travels naturally cannot win, the whole system get screwed up.


I agree! Unfortunately, this is also why I believe it continues…winners are not supposed to be "natural"...they are supposed to be "supernatural". And winners are what perspective owners look for in bloodlines/pedigrees, etc., so the cycle continues. When "natural" horses begin winning, then that's what you'll see in the ring. Until then,


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## COWCHICK77

I agree. Look how long everyone has been disgusted and complaining about troping, crab walking peanut rollers. Finally got a 'rule change' and I'm using that term loosely, and still the judges are pinning horses that are not truly shown at extension when called for in the class. It won't change until the judges start rewarding the right horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie

Yes but in order for the "right horses" to win you have to have a legal precedence. Think about what Britain has done with Crufts where dogs are required to pass a health inspection. A few years ago they actually disqualified a Bull dog because its very physical appearance was a detriment to its health. We are getting to that point with elements of the horse world. Where the horses physical body is actually harmful to its health. Which is not right and is allowed to continue for the sake of a 93 cent ribbon. Unless you start requiring and ENFORCING rules and regulations nothing is going to change. You can either walk away or find a way to deal with it.


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## HorseMom1025

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

There is truly nothing you can do. There is nothing the 'good' men can do. The judges are all trainers. Most of the higher ranking trainers are judges. They place horses that travel the way they also train them to travel. They have figured out a way to judge them that makes it impossible for ordinary people, even very advanced 'world class' riders, to maintain them and tune them up and haul them and win. They are perpetuating a style that requires the horses to be kept in a training barn where the horses can be forced into this imitation way of going. They all judge the horses in a way that keeps the ones they train also winning. Since they all spend most of their time judging each other, it just keeps going on and on and on. 

People have complained to the Association and to board members until we have finally been heard and rules have changed. BUT, the judging has changed little. As long as the judges are all trainers with a barn full of the same kind of horses, nothing can really change.

Halter is the same way. As long as horses with conformation that does NOT lend itself to riding well are placed, we will keep seeing 1400# and 1500# massive horses on 00 feet with hocks so straight and standing under them so far, that the horse is completely useless. Show breeders breed horses that win, so they do not care if they ride or stay sound or can 'do' anything. This is why we still breed the same kind of 'all-around' horses that we raised 40 years ago. Many of them trace back to a mare named Miss Keck that put me in the breeding business in 1967. I still have 2 of her granddaughters and several of their daughters. I do not care what 'wins'. I will keep breeding and training these good minded horses to ride the way we think a horse should ride. We run into plenty of people who love riding them and keep buying them and keep coming back for more just like them.


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## .Delete.

I completely agree that this is 100% the judges fault. An AQHA is slowly recognizing it. When I was in school for horses the program director was heavy into AQHA judging. He would always lecture us about the rule changes and how AQHA is trying to change their ways.

He claimed that at the higher level judging they are changing quickly. But it's the lower-level AQHA judges who are still very political and flawed. Infact he "claims" judges can get in trouble now for placing horses that are 4beating. There has been a few judges with their cards revoked because of the way they had been placing. I don't know how true this is, but if it were I'd consider that a good thing.


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## walkinthewalk

46 posts and most of them reminders as to why I have always been a trail rider.

Cheating started in my area way back in 1963 when one of the good doctors in town went out west and paid $1,200 for a push-button Quarter Horse that would allow his sweet daughter to winwinwin at all the 4-H shows. Yes, 4-H.

Cheating, beating, drugging has been escalating in all breed shows, ever since.

Myself, I prefer to take my horse into the high mountains where peace and quiet abound, hope that hunky Marlboro man swaggers out from behind a tall oak tree and says in his deep raspy voice, while peering out from under that wide-brimmed hat: "hey gurrrilll, got a light?"

Actually all I've ever seen are bear and rattlesnakes but they're still on a pedestal compared to what goes on in anybody's show ring


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## Dustbunny

walkinthewalk said:


> .
> Myself, I prefer to take my horse into the high mountains where peace and quiet abound, hope that hunky Marlboro man swaggers out from behind a tall oak tree and says in his deep raspy voice, while peering out from under that wide-brimmed hat: "hey gurrrilll, got a light?"


 Well, good luck with that!!!!!!!:happydance:


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## verona1016

It's a bit disheartening to hear that so many people accept drugging as part of the show experience, whether they're doing it themselves or seeing other people do it :-| 

I haven't seen other people doing this, though I don't know if it's because I haven't paid enough attention to what other people are doing or because I'm only going to local/unrated shows. Perhaps this is also more common at jumping events where the horses are more likely to get 'hot'? (As opposed to the dressage shows I tend to go to)

I took my horse to his first eventing show earlier this year (two one-day trials). It was a MUCH different environment than our typical dressage shows, with a lot more noise and stuff going. He flipped out in the dressage warm-up and tried to bolt. I went into the dressage arena anyway, where he tried bolting again and got us disqualified. Luckily, I was there with my trainer who rode him in the jumping and cross country rounds for me that day (after a "come to jesus" meeting in the jumping warm up!). The next day my horse was much more obedient and I was able to ride him through all three rounds without him pulling any major stunts. Had my trainer just suggested drugging him, he wouldn't have actually learned anything from the experience; I would have just had to keep drugging him every time I took him to a show where he might be overwhelmed by the atmosphere. Of course, had my trainer suggested drugging him, I would have just loaded him up, driven home, and never taken a lesson with that trainer again.


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## thesilverspear

And this goes on in hunters: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/u...ice-to-drugs-in-show-ring.html?pagewanted=all


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## jaydee

And that pony could so easily have collapsed when the child was riding it


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## Chasin Ponies

.Delete. said:


> I completely agree that this is 100% the judges fault. An AQHA is slowly recognizing it. When I was in school for horses the program director was heavy into AQHA judging. He would always lecture us about the rule changes and how AQHA is trying to change their ways.
> 
> He claimed that at the higher level judging they are changing quickly. But it's the lower-level AQHA judges who are still very political and flawed. Infact he "claims" judges can get in trouble now for placing horses that are 4beating. There has been a few judges with their cards revoked because of the way they had been placing. I don't know how true this is, but if it were I'd consider that a good thing.


Yes the judges drive what is being done to these creatures. Even though I own several registered quarter horses, I refuse to be a member and stopped showing and attending shows many years ago when I saw horses being destroyed by the horrific WP training tactics that are the norm to keep them winning. Plus the ACE and routine nerve blocks-syringes lined up on every tack box every Friday night before a show.

Now I have heard (through the horsey grapevine) that the AQHA is sending stewards & monitors with video cameras up in the stands to keep track of how their sanctioned judges are placing and threatening to pull their cards if they don't judge by the new rules. I really wonder if it's true-I can tell you for a fact that at the lower level shows the WP nastiness continues and is still rewarded.


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## .Delete.

Chasin Ponies said:


> Now I have heard (through the horsey grapevine) that the AQHA is sending stewards & monitors with video cameras up in the stands to keep track of how their sanctioned judges are placing and threatening to pull their cards if they don't judge by the new rules. I really wonder if it's true-I can tell you for a fact that at the lower level shows the WP nastiness continues and is still rewarded.


This is true. Last time I worked at the Congress (2 years ago) was when these new rules just came into play. There were stewards at every practice ring at varying hours of the day. They asked several people to get off and change tack, and even leave if they continued to disobey the rules. That year, the big ordeal was people using draw reins with a curb bit. 

Stewards were asking people to go change tack left and right. Eventually people would only ride in a curb & draw reins at times they knew Stewards weren't around. Plus, during the cutting segment of the Congress, there was aloooooooot of drama over it. Many of the cutters use questionable techniques and have a serious problem with people telling them to stop.


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## stevenson

This is dishonest. Totally dishonest . Drug a horse to make it calm for someone to ride is dishonest. Horse traders used to drug and sell horses, get them home nice horse, couple days later (depending on how often they doped it) you had a crazed horse. 
Dishonest.


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## .Delete.

stevenson said:


> This is dishonest. Totally dishonest . Drug a horse to make it calm for someone to ride is dishonest. Horse traders used to drug and sell horses, get them home nice horse, couple days later (depending on how often they doped it) you had a crazed horse.
> Dishonest.


No one is saying it's not dishonest. Like Cherie's point, so many people try to make their horses something they are not. I once heard that 1% of show horses are truly great and good enough to be higher level. So the rest of these people are left with less-than horses. Which the only way for them to even compete with these naturally level headed horses, is to ACE them. 

Which IS dishonest, however to many trainers its the only way they can compete. Horses that make it to the top honestly, are incredibly hard to come by.


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## stevenson

Delete.. the OP asked what do you think .. so thats my thought and opinion.
The judges are only Part of a large problem. 
If Trainers spent the time working horses making them calm instead of short cut and doping, then calm top horses would be easy to find. Doping is the easy way out , its dishonest, its cheating.


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## .Delete.

stevenson said:


> If Trainers spent the time working horses making them calm instead of short cut and doping, then calm top horses would be easy to find. Doping is the easy way out , its dishonest, its cheating.


It's my belief that you can't make a horse something it's not. Just like you can't make a horse have a better shoulder or a bigger hip. Horses have certain dispositions and there is only so much you can do for that. They are unique unto themselves and we can only shape them so much. Certainly you can "bomb proof" a horse, desentize it to everything under the sun, and that still might not translate into a slow legged loose rein show horse. 

You have what you have with horses. The top ones are born slow legged, they are not made that way. That is why they are the top horses. No one has forced them to shorten their stride, no one has worked hours on getting them to relax, they are just naturally level headed and slow. That is why people resort to ACE. If you don't have a horse that was born slow legged, how do you achieve it, compete against it, etc? With ACE. 

I know you were voicing your opinion. I didn't mean to seem like I was jumping on you for it.


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## stevenson

Wow.. I would never buy a horse from anyone that thought Ace was the answer to making a show horse.
You don't take a horse bred for speed and put it in WP etc.
Horses are Trained , some excel at a discipline some do not. A good trainer will tell you , this horse would be better at WP than Cutting, etc etc.. This horse would be a better equitation horse and not a hunter, or a better jumper etc etc.


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## Foxhunter

The USA which likes to think it is the leader in all fields. Is miles behind other countries when it comes to animals and drugs.

It should fall into line with the rest of Europe and *ban the use of ALL drugs in competitions at affiliated shows.*

It would take less than a show season for it all to stop because those giving out pain killers and tranquillisers would be named, shamed, fined and banned from affiliated shows, even as a spectator, for a period of time. 

What good is a horse if it has to be drugged and given pain killers before competing? 

It has been this way in the UK for many years. Random testing whether winners or not keeps the sport clean.

Another thing that happens here is that no judge can have a horse/pony come in front of them if they have had anything to do with that animal, whether it has been through their hands or by a stallion the judge might own. 

Horses and ponies are expected to be well mannered and loose marks of they aren't well behaved. At one major show, several years ago, the First Ridden ponies were in for final judging. They judges made their decision and called them in. First Ridden ponies, 12.2 and under, have to be perfectly safe for children under 10 years to ride. 
They all lined up to the applause from the audience and when the judge went to present to winning pony its rosette and cup the pony spooked away had and fast. That was enough for the judges to demote it to the bottom of the line. 

Hard but correct, that pony was not 100% for a small child.


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## CandyCanes

i agree foxhunter... And if drugs are found in the horses system, the horse is stripped of his title. For example, Jock Paget, event rider, had a horse tested positive for drugs, and was stripped of his Burley horse trials title. 
The rules are harsh, but that's what keeps the sport clean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter

It happens but riders are given the chance to prove innocence. 

David Broome was disqualified from some big class when his horse tested positive and stood to have a lengthy ban. 
He knew the horse had not been given anything (it was not a drug as such, just a banned substance) and he was able to prove that at th feed mill a worker had been clearing cattle food and never washed the shovel before using it on horse feed.


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## .Delete.

If only it was that way in the states Fox. That would be so great really, however there would be so much drama put inplace. I have no doubt the breed shows who put this in place would see numbers at their shows drop dramatically, which means less money. Unfortunately, AQHA, APHA, etc aren't about to willingly lose money.


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## stevenson

The Registry shows would still have big classes. That was also said about the WP peanut rollers.. some trainer started that Fad to make his horses neck look better and all the little horse yuppies jumped up and down and said make mine look like that to ! and because some judge placed the horse first. 
Registry shows would still go on, as the horses that place high in those shows Command a bigger dollar in the show horse world. They would just add more glitter to their outfits, you know the shinier glittery you are, the more the judge will notice you and it makes you a better rider.. lol


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## franknbeans

stevenson said:


> Wow.. I would never buy a horse from anyone that thought Ace was the answer to making a show horse.
> You don't take a horse bred for speed and put it in WP etc.
> Horses are Trained , some excel at a discipline some do not. A good trainer will tell you , this horse would be better at WP than Cutting, etc etc.. This horse would be a better equitation horse and not a hunter, or a better jumper etc etc.


I think perhaps you mean "I would never KNOWINGLY buy a horse from anyone that thought Ace was the answer……."

However-you UNKNOWINGLY buy such horse, get it home after paying at least 5 figures for the horse….and the horse is crazy. Now what? Take the loss and sell the horse for what it is? That would be the "right" thing to do, wouldn't it? How many folks can realistically afford such a loss and still have to go buy a horse to compete with? Not many. This also perpetuates the drugging, IMO. I have sworn-I will NEVER pay over $5K for a horse. Period. Once the $$ get involved things go downhill in a hurry. JMHO. I would rather buy a young well bred one and spend the $$ on training. My BFF has 2 horses…..both $30K horses. Neither one would I own. Sorry-but nerved tail on one, and the other cribs…and bubble wrapped to turn out. No thanks.


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## Prinella

As many have said. 
If you can't ride it without drugging you have no place riding it! Train it through the issues, it's not that hard

As it's a friend I would bring it up with her depending on how good a friend would depend how nicely I did it. I am far harder on those closest to me and they are all appreciative of it. The odd time my best friend and I haven't spoken for a week after I have told her to pull her head out of her bum. That's fine. She always calls eventually, normally saying "it worked"


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## farmpony84

franknbeans said:


> I think perhaps you mean "I would never KNOWINGLY buy a horse from anyone that thought Ace was the answer……."
> 
> However-you UNKNOWINGLY buy such horse, get it home after paying at least 5 figures for the horse….and the horse is crazy. Now what? Take the loss and sell the horse for what it is? That would be the "right" thing to do, wouldn't it? How many folks can realistically afford such a loss and still have to go buy a horse to compete with? Not many. This also perpetuates the drugging, IMO. I have sworn-I will NEVER pay over $5K for a horse. Period. Once the $$ get involved things go downhill in a hurry. JMHO. I would rather buy a young well bred one and spend the $$ on training. My BFF has 2 horses…..both $30K horses. Neither one would I own. Sorry-but nerved tail on one, and the other cribs…and bubble wrapped to turn out. No thanks.


 There is another drug out there, I don't remember the name of it, but it's a long lasting drug. I want to say it lasts weeks or even months? A friend of mine bought a horse that was on it. (They think) because when it wore off the animal snapped and went completely insane. She drug tests all horses now before purchase. I can not remember the name of the drug...


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## franknbeans

farmpony84 said:


> There is another drug out there, I don't remember the name of it, but it's a long lasting drug. I want to say it lasts weeks or even months? A friend of mine bought a horse that was on it. (They think) because when it wore off the animal snapped and went completely insane. She drug tests all horses now before purchase. I can not remember the name of the drug...


And when that one becomes easily detected there will be another. There will always be another, I am afraid.:-(


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## stevenson

Franknbeans.. yes, not knowingly. And if I knew that a trainer had been aceing show horses I would never buy from them. We did end up with a horse that was sweet and nice, and about 4 days later, loonier than a toon, actually it was a relatives horse, that horse was kept here for many years , until it was Euthanized. It was not passed on to some other person, It was euthanized when it became to difficult to keep. 
We do not pass on unwanted horses, They get a trip to the Vet instead of ending up hurting someone, at the auction, at horse tripping rodeos in Mexico, or standing in line at the slaughter plant. 
and When we do end up with a horse that was sold to us , and it was doped to the gills, I let people know that Mr or Miss or Mrs is selling doped horses.


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## Chasin Ponies

.Delete. said:


> This is true. Last time I worked at the Congress (2 years ago) was when these new rules just came into play. There were stewards at every practice ring at varying hours of the day. They asked several people to get off and change tack, and even leave if they continued to disobey the rules. That year, the big ordeal was people using draw reins with a curb bit.
> 
> Stewards were asking people to go change tack left and right. Eventually people would only ride in a curb & draw reins at times they knew Stewards weren't around. Plus, during the cutting segment of the Congress, there was aloooooooot of drama over it. Many of the cutters use questionable techniques and have a serious problem with people telling them to stop.


 This is fantastic news and will hopefully change AQHA showing (and the training methods) for the better. It's about time!!Now they need to work on HUS and make a hunter horse move like a hunter horse. Of course, most of the people I know who shown both WP and HUS haven't the foggiest idea how to ride a hunter. They just change tack and ride exactly the same speed and same way.

It's actually comical to watch these WP people now try to figure out how to bring their horses heads up and move them out. When these horses are allowed to actually cover some ground maybe they won't end up permanently lame at the age of 7!


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## .Delete.

Chasin Ponies said:


> This is fantastic news and will hopefully change AQHA showing (and the training methods) for the better. It's about time!!Now they need to work on HUS and make a hunter horse move like a hunter horse. Of course, most of the people I know who shown both WP and HUS haven't the foggiest idea how to ride a hunter. * They just change tack and ride exactly the same speed and same way.*
> 
> It's actually comical to watch these WP people now try to figure out how to bring their horses heads up and move them out. When these horses are allowed to actually cover some ground maybe they won't end up permanently lame at the age of 7!


I have to slightly disagree here. Although this is true for many many all around WP and HUS horses. The horses that are strictly HUS are much different. My favorite class to show and train for is HUS, don't ask me why, it just is. I also tried jumping and CC for a good while, and you're right, I couldn't ride a hunter to save my life. 

Also, these horses are supposed to move our and cover ground. A sweeping, flat kneed, quiet hocked, mover is just what we want in the HUS show pen. Where AQHA people have gone wrong is thinking that height = stride. Which isn't the case. Many of these HUS horses who end up crippled is because of their confirmation and the countless rides/lunges trying to "get the fresh off". Many of these horses are fractious minded and trainers would rather lunge them for hours than get on them "fresh".


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