# Double dosing dewormers?



## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

I've noticed lately that my horse is a little bit ribby, tail rubbing, and his belly seems kind of swollen.. time to deworm! He always seemed to be a little ribby after deworming though, so I asked his previous owner what he did when it came time (He owned him for 9 years). 

He told me that he gave him two tubes of paste dewormer, and then another 1 and a half 2 weeks later.. I am a little bit nervous about this because I really don't want to make my horse sick. He said that he double dosed it because the horse kept most of it on his tongue and would spit it out. Also, I went out and bought two tubes of Equimax dewormer, which is 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel.. I'm not too sure if it would be safe to double dose. Ps, my horse is in the 1100-1200 range. 

Thanks!


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

OMG, NO!!!!!:shock:

Dosing a 1,200 lb horse as if it were a DRAFT size horse is sooooo dangerous! Then to overdose him again two weeks later???!!!

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this sounds too bizarre to be true! I am sure u have no reason to make this up, but I sure do wish u were! 


tis scary to think that someone could do something so....irresponsible......and deadly.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Some dewormers have a very broad range of safety. Ivermectin, Moxidectin and Praziquantil DO NOT have a broad margin of safety and need to be dosed very carefully.

Pyrantel Pamoate, Fenbendazole, Oxybendazole (actually any of many dewormers that end is 'zole' are very safe and are frequently used with double or even triple doses. They are given in the high doses to get the immature strongyles.

You should not deworm your horse at all until you have taken a fresh fecal sample into your Vet and had it examined for parasites. Then, you need to use his recommendation as to type and amount of dewormer you need and the time of year it is. 

The Ivermectin dewormers are starting to show less effectiveness than they did for many years on some of the parasites. The dewormers ending in 'zole' have lost much of their effectiveness against Large Strongyles (blood worms). Ivermectin is very effective against Bots, but they can only be treated during the late winter and spring months. 

Praziquantil is specifically for removing Tape Worms. If you do not have Tapes, it is a waste of time and money and are pretty hard on a lot of horses.

Moxidectin can also be hard on a horse and has to be dosed pretty exactly.

So, it is unwise to just start throwing dewormers at a horse without know which one he specifically needs.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I've heard of people worming a horse and the worming them again 2 weeks later, but I would double check with your vet before you do that.
You can make a horse very sick by giving them to much wormer at once or giving it to often.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Some dewormers have a very broad range of safety. Ivermectin, Moxidectin and Praziquantil DO NOT have a broad margin of safety and need to be dosed very carefully.


I agree except, Ivermectin does not need to be on that list. You can safely double dose ivermectin. 


Deworming practices have changed quite a bit in recent years. With the amount of resistence that the darn parasites has developed and new deworming products not being researched it is better to not just randomly deworm like we used to do.

(Though it does sound like your horse is due with those symptoms.)

It might be best to ask your vet what the deworming protocol is for your area now.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

JavaLover said:


> I've noticed lately that my horse is a little bit ribby, tail rubbing, and his belly seems kind of swollen.. time to deworm! He always seemed to be a little ribby after deworming though, so I asked his previous owner what he did when it came time (He owned him for 9 years).
> 
> He told me that he gave him two tubes of paste dewormer, and then another 1 and a half 2 weeks later.. I am a little bit nervous about this because I really don't want to make my horse sick. He said that he double dosed it because the horse kept most of it on his tongue and would spit it out. Also, I went out and bought two tubes of Equimax dewormer, which is 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel.. I'm not too sure if it would be safe to double dose. Ps, my horse is in the 1100-1200 range.
> 
> Thanks!


Ribby, tail rubbing, and a swollen belly is how you determine if he needs worming?


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ditto, ditto, and ditto taking a fecal sample to the vet and letting the vet tell you what and how much to worm with.

There are legitimate reasons to overdose horses with wormers but it should NOT be done "just because" someone on a forum said so or "just because" the previous owner decided it was the right thing to do.

I double-dose with *pure* Ivermectin in mid to late summer if I see I am dealing with neck threadworms.

Neck threadworms are microfiliae from the bites of the same Midge Fly that causes sweet itch; they are not related to neglect in a worming schedule. They do not show up in a fecal count and only sometimes show up in a skin culture. They are sometimes the cause of moon blindness.

I do not double-dose every horse I own, just the ones that are showing me the specific skin symptoms neck threadworms produce. It's something a person learns over time OR ask the vet.

Then there's the Panacur PowerPacks, which I am against but who am I to say. Again -- a subject for discussion with the vet.

Like anything else, *under the correct circumstances*, double-dosing can serve a good purpose ---- the OP's conditions do not sound like a good purpose and ^5 to the OP for asking the question

The horse might be dealing with ulcers - has it been checked for them? Ulcers will cause a horse to not keep weight on - another reason to not be arbitrarily shoving wormer down a horse as the wormer only serves to aggravate the ulcers and the vicious "skinny cycle" goes on.


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

To GoneRiding, no. Those are definitely not the signs that I look for.. My horse has always had weight issues and his belly isn't completely swollen, and the tail rubbing only started about a week or so, maybe less. 

I'm not really new to owning a horse, but dewormers have always confused me.. I went to my vet yesterday and told him all that was going on with my horse and he recommended Equimax, but I'm not sure. I would never ever double dose my horse unless I knew it was completely 100% safe.. I'm not an irresponsible owner, I just figured I'd get some opinions from people who have more experience than I do.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Equimax is a good product.

Next time you talk to your vet ask about having a fecal count done.




Tail rubbing can be caused by many things. 
Something as simple as dry skin or bug bites for starters. Has your boy had his sheath cleaned lately? (In mares is there a gunk build up between their teats?)

Have you dewormed yet this spring/summer? If not then Equimax (used per the manufactures directions) is a great place to start.


I can totally see how deworming can be confusing. It used to be that you simply rotated and dewormed everyone every six to eight weeks. Now the general thought on that has changed so instead of getting more simple it has actually gotten more complicated.


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

I was thinking that it could be dry skin, but I'm not sure because I've been putting some stuff on his tail that is said to stop itching and it smells like bacon ahah.. the name has completely slipped my mind! 

He was dewormed back in May I do believe, so I know he is probably due for another one, and no.. his sheath has not been cleaned lately.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MTG?



I currently only deworm my horses twice per year. So he might not be due.


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

Yes, MTG. 

If he isn't wormy, then I really don't know what's going on.. He has been losing quite a bit of weight lately and he's still being fed the same amount. He gets 2 flakes of hay in the morning with a scoop of high-fat-high-fiber and a cup of beet pulp that has been soaked, and he gets that twice a day.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i would start with taking a fecal sample to to your vet.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I agree, a simple fecal sample would help and also a routine de-worming program that suits your location. It would keep you less confused by taking more of the guessing game out of "when" to use "what". 

On the double dose note, it really depends "what" this previous owner double dosed with. It is certainly not as scary as it sounds (although, could be horribly mis-used I suppose) we give in-coming horses a three day double dose of safeguard and one tube of Ivermectrin three weeks later before droping them in with the herd. The rest of the herd is fecal tested twice yearly and de-wormed according to a schedule that I've had success with over the years. 

Also, a handful of years back I had a Miniature gelding who was 29" tall and 250 pounds soaking wet. The plunger broke and he ended up with 1200 pounds of Zimectrin Gold. NOT recommended and boy was I in panic calling the vet at that time however he had no issues.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

New_image said:


> On the double dose note, it really depends "what" this previous owner double dosed with. It is certainly not as scary as it sounds


It certainly is! Unless a vet is consulted, double dosing is dangerous. And doing it again two weeks later is idiotic!!

Anyone ever consider that aside from the danger from the drug itself, that huge doses like that in such a short time can cause a quick die off of any worms present and colic the horse.





> we give in-coming horses a three day double dose of safeguard and one tube of Ivermectrin three weeks later before droping them in with the herd.


I would not allow that done to my horses, and would want a statement from your vet stating his/her reccomendation for such a regimen and the reasons why.

Even then, I would likely opt out of having my horses dosed with 6 doses of ANY wormer in three days....

The way some of you are downplaying such extreme overuse of wormers makes me wonder if you are in the Twilight Zone. 

PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE A BIG PART OF THE REASON WHY THESE WORMERS ARE LOSING THEIR EFFECTIVENESS..... overuse of the wormers are breeding resistance in the worms. 

WISE UP..... Use them when you KNOW you need them (fecal egg count) not because you have a worm phobia!!!


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

That was worded wrong. I am by no means promoting blind double dosing whatever you'd like. Hence the suggestion for a fecal and a schedule. However there is a reason Safeguard sells FIVE day DOUBLE dose pacs. If this former owner double dosed with Safeguard then doubled again two weeks later, thats a really odd way to do it but not 'scary' considering they sell packs to double up for five days in a row.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Beau, double dosing of most deworming products it truly not dangerous. Some of them have the ability to be given in huge doses compared to what they are in those tubes with out any ill affect to the animal.

And giving higher doses close together is a good way to take care of some issues that can not be dealt with any other way. It is not idiotic at all.


Under dosing is far more likely to lead to resistance issues than over dosing.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Under dosing is far more likely to lead to resistance issues than over dosing.


^^ THIS. Over-dosing of de-wormer does not cause resistance, under-dosing does.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> ^^ THIS. Over-dosing of de-wormer does not cause resistance, under-dosing does.


 
That is a not true.





Worms are building up resistance for the same reason bacteria are building up resistance to antibiotics.....OVERUSE!!!!!!!!! 

You might want to do some reading on this topic so you can be better informed. 

Suggested reading:
In January 2010 the British vetinary association issued new guidelines which called for "the immediate cessation of blanket worming in all grazing animals, including horses. This is because of increasing drug resistance of the worms caused by overuse of wormer chemicals. Each time a wormer is used it increases the chance of the worms developing resistance against the wormer. There are no new wormers being made, we need to change to "targeted worming"
80% of the worm burden is usually found in 20% of the horses. This means the 80% are being wormed unecessarly, ingesting strong chemicals,wasting money and increasing the chance of resistance to wormers.


Worming - cobswallop


*How bad is parasite resistance in horses today?*


Entire classes of equine dewormers no longer work well against small strongyles.1,2,4,5
Small strongyles — the major target of parasite control in mature horses — have demonstrated widespread resistance to two of the three major dewormer classes (benzimidazole and pyrantel products).1,2,4,5
While products in the third class (macrocyclic lactones) still control small strongyles,2,3,6* resistance could develop from overuse.7,8,9,10 *
 

Parasite Resistance

Parasite resistance to equine dewormers​ 
Drug resistance occurs by overexposing a pathogen to a medication. This *overexposure* gives the pathogen more opportunities to find a way to avoid the effects of the medication. Evidence has been presenting itself around the world that resistance of equine parasites to
current medications is already occurring. 

Parasite resistance to equine dewormers - Equiworld -Horse and Pony Informationon the internet- Text Only

My point to all of this is that double dosing should be done ONLY on a vet's reccomendation, not done by people just because their horse is losing weight, itchy tail, becaue its 6 weeks are up or has a "grass belly", etc. 

Let me be plain spoken: what I see on this thread is some posters advocating and engaging in (per their statements} gross MISUSE and OVERDOSING of wormers. While this may be a medical necessity in some rare vet endorsed cases, that is not what I am seeing here. I am seeing a bunch of worm phobic people going way above the reccomended dosage thinking that they are helping their horse, when all they are doing is breeding worm resistance that may some day come back on ALL horse owners, including themselves.

FYI, our vet recommends worming be done ONLY after a fecal test is done and worms found. She DOES NOT ENDORSE the routine six week worming.... nor do alot of boarding facilities around here. 

And when people like Indy horse and AB say things like above....it's downright scary how uninformed horse owners are to this threat.

I encourage BOTH of u and all horse owners to do some research on this topic. UNDERUSE is not the cause of worm resistance. INFORM yourself...do some googling.....


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

My vet too says to do fecals and only deworm as needed (with 2x per year no matter what fecals says).

That does not make it not a fact that under dosing of dewormer has be a cause of resistance.

Just like only taking 2/3 of your antibiotics when they are prescribed. If you are guessing your horse's weight and you give them dewormer for 1000lbs and they really weight 1500lbs you have under dosed them. This leads to the parasites developing a resistance.

Over use is different than double dosing at one time. It has a very different affect. And of course double dosing should be something you discuss with your vet first. I think that has been said many times already.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

AB .... what u r saying flies in the face of ALL RESEARCH DONE ON WORM RESISTANCE. In other words, You ARE WRONG.

I urge you to read up on the subject, and I urge all forum members to do so also....and I also urge them NOT to believe YOU over the tons of articles done by vets and researchers that say the opposite of what you, an anonymous persona, are saying.

And in truth, you are illogical in thinking UNDERUSE causes resistance. This has not proven true for bacteria (well known that overuse of antibiotics has caused superbugs like MRSA), viruses, or worms....

Your logic is flawed, and you are grossly uninformed.

again, i urge ALL MEMBERS to google worm resistance and read how overuse is causing it.

AND TALK TO YOUR VET. Most vets these days are knowledgeable about the worm resistance and what is causing it.....and can suggest a worming regimen for your horse IF YOUR HORSE NEEDS IT.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Beau, screaming at us is not necessary.

Stop screaming and read.

I did not say under USING. I said under DOSING.


I am correct. If you would read what I wrote you understand.

I have done research. I even attending a clinic my vet gave on deworming. 



Double dosing is not an issue (but again, discuss this with your vet) with most deworming products. Some parasite problems require that high dosage all at once to take care of the problem.
And yes, some parasite problems require the high dosage with another deworming a relative short time later on.

No one here is saying that everyone should do this. We are just saying your screaming post about how this is deadly is incorrect.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I urge you to research the difference between over-using (too frequent applications) and over-dosing (too much at once) so you can correctly understand all this scientific fact you are touting and use your arguments in a more valid perspective.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Actually Beau, under dosing _does_ cause resistance, and it's well documented. It's as bad for the horse as over dosing, which is _not_ the same thing as a Power Pack or double dosing.

Taking antibiotics for less than the recommended time or dosage can and does cause a resurgence of the bacteria, because you've just given it a way to build up an immunity. It works the same for under dosing of dewormer.

Yes, the six or eight times a year deworming that _used_ to be recommended has been amended to taking fecal counts and determining by that whether or not a horse needs to be dewormed and for which specific parasites.

Over dosing and double dosing are simply _not_ the same thing, and to presume the rest of us are ignorant of the dangers of over or under dosing our horses is rather presumptuous of you.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

FOR AB AND ALL FORUM MEMBERS:

http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/New%20Bolton/NBCNewsletter2011June_web.pdf


The same way that antibiotic resistance came
about: over-use, and indiscriminate use, of drugs. By de-worming
every horse every 8 weeks regardless of need, we selected for the
survival of parasites that have genes for resistance against those
drugs. With all the sensitive parasites being killed every 8 weeks,​the resistant parasites quickly took over

Interesting article, written by vets from New Bolton, an accredited and highly respected vet clinic here in PA..... 

Known as the hospital where Barbaro was taken.

The vets there state that this resistance came about by overuse and misuse of wormers.

I'd be inclined to believe them over forum member AB...


This article, and many others I've read actually state that underdosing is useful in that the horse develops resistance to the worms from continued low level exposure. Only high shedders (eggs) should be treated with wormers, low shedders need no treatement.

It's the latest cutting edge view of vets on this issue.

OVERUSE and OVERDOSING cause resistance.

Perhaps shouting is necessary so that those still clinging to the "old way of doing things" don't mess things up for all of us.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

They are saying the same thing I am.

So feel free to believe them.


Do you not know the difference between use and dosing? Indy gave you the definitions.


PS, you do not need to yell at us. You yelling does not make you more right.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You apparently have reading comprehension fail, since that article is telling you the EXACT SAME THING all of us have been saying. :?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

:rofl: This is getting kind of funny.

You are working yourself into a frenzy arguing a completely separate point to what is being said here, and a point none of us are disagreeing with. 

Certainly dosing your horse 8 times a year is a bad idea and OVERUSE. It is not however an OVERDOSE. And overdose would be giving the amount of those 8 times a year wormings, all at once. 

As SR said, a double dose is not the same thing as an overdose. And neither of the two are the same thing as OVERUSE that you are citing in all your articles.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

What I find most funny about Beau's screaming and yelling that I do not know what I am talking about is that my first post is quoted below (complete with bad spelling).



Alwaysbehind said:


> Deworming practices have changed quite a bit in recent years. With the amount of resistence that the darn parasites has developed and new deworming products not being researched it is better to not just randomly deworm like we used to do.
> 
> (Though it does sound like your horse is due with those symptoms.)
> 
> It might be best to ask your vet what the deworming protocol is for your area now.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Your
veterinarian should be involved in de-worming decisions. The first
step is to identify which horses are shedding the most worm eggs.
Each horse has a different level of natural immunity against
intestinal worms, which can’t be determined just by looking at
them. Your veterinarian can run a fecal (manure) test to identify​ 
which animals are the 
high-shedders of worm eggs; these 20% of

horses cause 80% of pasture contamination.​

High-shedders should

be de-wormed frequently, sometimes as often as once a month,
where​

low- and medium-shedders can be de-wormed as rarely as

twice a year. Next, rotating de-wormers must be stopped. Rapid
rotation is the fastest way to create multi-drug resistance as the
worms are exposed to many drugs over a short period of time,
allowing only the “super-worms” to survive. A slow rotation
program, where drugs are changed only once a year, is preferable.
Fecal egg tests should be repeated on a few of the horses 2 weeks
after administering a de-wormer for the first time to ensure the
product is effective against the worms on the farm. All horses on the
farm should be on the same program: it only takes one horse not
being treated appropriately to contaminate a whole pasture.
Reduce reliance on de-worming drugs and control your parasites
naturally. If manure is removed from the pasture every 3-4 days,
the eggs do not have time to hatch into the infectious larvae, and
the need for medications will fall dramatically. Chain harrowing
spreads worm eggs and larvae over the entire surface of a field and
should be avoided unless the weather is very hot and dry. Because​

the larvae die in cold weather there is no need to de-worm during​ 
From the above article.​ 
And No, New Bolton is NOT saying the same thing speed racer and Indy and AB are saying.​ 
In fact, New Bolton is saying MOST horses only need wormed once a year.​ 
some, not at all. It depends on the level of shedding. And the vet community is now saying low level shedding may not need treated at all....as a constant low level of worm infestation is beneficial as it makes the horse's immune system kick in to take care of the worms.
Not as one poster said, six doses in three days.​ 
SIX doses in THREE days can indeed be deadly for some horses. That is a serious misuse of wormer.​ 
My comprehension of this issue is in keeping with the current veterinary consensus. Overuse and overdosing of worming meds is causing worm resistance.​ 
It's a fact, even if you three ...and whoever else wants to join your pack.....disagree. It is what it is.​ 

As is this thread, which is NOT about underuse, it's about unusually high doses of wormer given to horses in an incredibly short time.​


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

That article says the same thing my vet says (though we deworm 2x per year on a non-shedders). 

Again, that is very different than double dosing.


My vet still recommends a power pac (double dose for five days in a row) for horses with unknown deworming back ground with a very high current worm load. It is a safe affective way to kill off a large quantity of worms.


PS, nothing you posted talked about over dosing.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> My vet still recommends a power pac (double dose for five days in a row) for horses with unknown deworming back ground with a very high current worm load. It is a safe affective way to kill off a large quantity of worms.


 
I hope you are joking..... you are saying that your vet reccomends doubling up on paste dewormer for five days....meaning 10 doses.... on a horse with an unknown worming background? I'm sorry but I don't believe that any vet would reccomend such a thing. And all we have is your WORD that that is what he or she said. I am calling shenanigans on this!!



Killing off large amounts of worms in a short time is NEVER safe.!!! And if the horse's worming background is unknown, then doing so is risking the horse's life. 
The rapid kill off can cause intestinal blockage if this horse with an unknown worming history just happens to have a high worm load.

*Again, I urge all forum members to talk with their vet. Ask about worm resistance and what causes it.*

Nothing else need be said as I am not interested in playing "shenanigans" with AB and his pack.....

I will say this: 10 doses in five days to create a rapid kill off of worms in a horse with an unknown worming history is not safe...or the consensus of the vet community.



Not my words, so no need to argue it:
If you suspect a severe parasite problem, discuss treatment with your veterinarian prior to administering any wormers. A sudden influx of "dead worms" in your horse's system can have toxic effects. Some wormers contain "rapid kill" chemicals and could be quite harmful. It is usually more appropriate to first dose a suspected wormy horse with a "slow kill" wormer, then follow up in a few weeks with a rapid kill wormer. New wormers are constantly coming on the market and some occasionally get reformulated so it is impractical to post a list of fast and slow kill wormers. Your veterinarian should be able to provide current advice and the veterinary pharmaceutical companies usually have qualified personnel who can give practical advice as to the correct product and dosage for your animal.
Colic Emergencies in Horses




*ask your vet about worm resistance and it's cause, don't take anonymous internet persons words as truth. *


*I'm am now*
*Done with the AB and his pack's shenanigans! Also known as what bulls leave in pasture.*


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Panacur is a pretty mild dewormer so a power pack is not likely to cause problems.

My vet recommends a fecal on every horse before doing anything.


Not shenanigans. Really. No more shenanigans than me being male.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You know what Beau, you being obnoxious and typing in *REALLY BIG* letters does nothing to convince me you're smarter or have more horse knowledge than the rest of us. :?

DOUBLE DOSING and OVERDOSING are not and have never been the same thing. You can scratch, claw, and be as snotty about it as you want, but they simply _are not_.

Different vets recommend different protocols, although it's been widely accepted in the veterinary community that doing fecal counts is the way to go nowadays. Which is_ exactly_ what the New Bolton vets have in their article, and with which none of us have disagreed, your temper tantrums to the contrary.

OVERUSE and OVERDOSING are_ not _synonymous, nor are they the same thing as DOUBLE DOSING.

Before you try and 'learn' us old timers something, maybe you should get your facts straight before you start going off the deep end.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Ummmm....speed racer, u r wrong.

Double dosing and overdosing are INDEED the same thing.

The OP (remember her??) was talking about the previous owner giving what is now her horse who is approx. 1,200 lbs a double dose of wormer. Meaning it was given what we give our DRAFT horse.

Doubling up a 1,200 lb horse's dose until it is the same as a 2,400 lb horse's dose IS INDEED an overdose. AND it is indeed OVERUSE. The fact that the same thing was done days later only amplifies what it already is: overuse, overdose, dose doubling.....because 1,200 doubled is in fact 2,400.

A dose for my draft is two tubes, so giving her two tubes is not double dosing, that would be four tubes..... A dose for a standard size horse, 1,200...is one tube, giving it two is double dosing. Either way it is overuse and *over the reccomended dosage*

IT is what it is.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Beauseant said:


> I'm sorry but I don't believe *that any vet would reccomend such a thing*. And all we have is your WORD that that is
> what he or she said. I am calling shenanigans on this!!
> 
> Gee - AB is on the east coast, I am in the midwest and our vets are of a like mind . . . .
> ...


Beau - you need to open your mind!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Beauseant said:


> FOR AB AND ALL FORUM MEMBERS:
> 
> http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/New%20Bolton/NBCNewsletter2011June_web.pdf


I re-read it twice and couldn't find the place where it says over-dosing is dangerous. Could you, please, point it out? 

I do fecal count every year. I did talk to 2 vets and one suggested deworming 3 times/year, other one 4 times/year (given fecal count is negative of course).

And folks, please calm down and don't use bold and too big/too small letters (I did change those to "normal" in several posts). Because, 1) it's HARD to read, and 2) bold and capital = scream on net. We don't need a scream in civil conversation. If you want to argue/disagree - do it politely, please!


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, my vet must be as dumb as AlwaysBehinds vet as that is where I picked up this "insane" method as well. I have de-wormed incoming horses with un-known de-worming background using the 3-5 days double of Safegaurd since before the official "Power dose pac" was even marketed. I flush the new horses out before they go on my pastures, they are then fecal tested and de-wormed or not de-wormed accordingly. 

I would also like to point out that only one thing has happened to these horses. The worms died and the fecal came back clear. The horses, however, lived.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

But that's not what YOU'RE arguing, now is it Beau? You're shrieking like the proverbial banshee about overdosing, double dosing and over use as being the _exact same things_.

If the horse was _overdosed_ with two dewormers at the same time, that's not _double_ dosing. Double dosing is something else entirely.

But again, I obviously don't have your 'smarts' and my vet must be a moron, since she follows the fecal count protocol and gives me deworming recommendations based on that. Never mind that she's one of the most sought after vets on the east coast, and gives symposiums that other vets regularly attend.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Beauseant,

While I would normally send a private message regarding the issues relating to the obnoxious style in which you posted on this thread (I have edited the font for obvious reasons), I felt that by calling out members the way you did and insisting that they have incorrect methods for deworming or that they may be misinforming the OP or members in the thread, nearly calling them "idiots", I figure it's ok to ask you to go back and read the forum rules and the conscienscious etiquette policy before responding to any further posts.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Thank you Farmpony.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mls said:


> Thank you Farmpony.


I second that.
(Though I now look silly for mentioning being yelled at since all the yelling has been removed.)


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> (Though I now look silly for mentioning being yelled at since all the yelling has been removed.)


Don't worry about it, AB. The yelling may be gone, but we all have long memories. :wink:

Yes, thank you Farmpony.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Don't worry about it, AB. The yelling may be gone, but we all have long memories. :wink:


How long will I remain a guy?


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Ok, believe what you want.... even though I posted a veterinary article that says rapid kill off of worms is dangerous and can cause colic....

believe that these people are telling the truth and not just trying to make me seem like I made it up....when they SAY their vets do this. Because, in fact, none of us have ANY proof their vets do this...we only have their word. And honestly, they can be lying.

I am also dismayed by the "pack" mentality I see on here. SOME of you must have read or talked to your vet about the worm resistance and that it is called by overuse....

and some of you must know that rapid kill off of worms is NOT reccomended......

yet where are your voices?

And if you DON'T know either, ask your vet....not just believe what anonymous people SAY their vet says or does. Because that isn't good enough as it can't be proven 


THe sum of it all: Ask your vet.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Beauseant said:


> and some of you must know that rapid kill off of worms is NOT reccomended......


I think we all know that, actually.

I think most of us also know that all deworming products are not the same so giving a double dose over several days (as a power pack does) is not over dosing in anyway so it will not cause a rapid kill off.




Beauseant said:


> THe sum of it all: Ask your vet.


I totally agree. (Which is what I said in my first post.)


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> ly.
> 
> I think most of us also know that all deworming products are not the same so giving a double dose over several days (as a power pack does) is not over dosing in anyway *so it will not cause a rapid kill off.*


 
In post #31 you said:


> My vet still recommends a power pac (double dose for five days in a row) for horses with unknown deworming back ground with a very high current worm load. *It is a safe affective way to kill off a large quantity of worms.*


Highlighted for specific attention ....

slight contradiction in stating your vet gives a power pac over five days as it is a safe and effective way to kill off a large quantity of worms, yet said in the top post that power pac "will not cause a rapid kill off"....

a 5 day blitzkrieg of wormer is going to cause a rapid kill off...and if the horse has a high worm load, a kill off in large numbers.

This is not safe. As you said, we all know that.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Beauseant said:


> I hope you are joking..... you are saying that your vet reccomends doubling up on paste dewormer for five days....meaning 10 doses.... on a horse with an unknown worming background? I'm sorry but I don't believe that any vet would reccomend such a thing. And all we have is your WORD that that is what he or she said. I am calling shenanigans on this!!
> 
> *Lets see Ohio State Unv. Recommends the same thing when needed. TESTING is the Key. There are times when a power pack in needed. It is safe and affective.*
> 
> ...


Like what has been stated just like anti biotic. The improper use of Dewormers is what has caused resistance. Using dewormers when they are not needed. Under dosing and not killing all of the parasites is what leads to resistance. Just like over use of Anti Biotic that are not needed or when they are needed not finishing your script.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Beauseant said:


> In post #31 you said:
> 
> Highlighted for specific attention ....
> 
> ...



Again it does not cause a rapid kill off of parasites. That is why it is double and is given over a 5 day period. Now let say you did this with Ivermec or one of the other types of dewormers. Now that would be a big problem. It kill fast and hard. Panacure however does not. It is slower does not kill off as many as fast. That is why you need to use in the way it is directed.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

The articles I supplied don't state underuse as the problem. They focus on overuse, not underuse. And the new thinking is that killing off all the worms may not be beneficial anyhow.....rather it is better to leave some so the horse's immune system kicks in to take care of them. This only works on low worm load, so some vets are now* recommending *underuse of wormer to lighten the load while still leaving enough to trigger an immune response.

Honestly, as weird as it sounds at first, I believe this is the future of equine worming. Due to overuse, the wormers are failing, like the Jurassic Park fences during the storm...in the end, all that will be left to stop the worms is the horse's own defense system. Which it can't build up a defense to if they are purged completely every six weeks.


I know it sounds bizarre to kill off most worms while leaving some to the immune system...i.e. underuse.....but i personally think the vets are on to something.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

This is why testing is so important. If the count is not high enough then you do not deworm at all. With the exception of foals I rarely over the past 10+ years have dewormed my horses including the show horses more then 2 times a year. I run fecals here at the house several times a year and then back that up with the vet about every 12-14 months.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Again it does not cause a rapid kill off of parasites. That is why it is double and is given over a 5 day period. Now let say you did this with Ivermec or one of the other types of dewormers. Now that would be a big problem. It kill fast and hard. Panacure however does not. It is slower does not kill off as many as fast. That is why you need to use in the way it is directed.


Thank you. Yes.

Giving a double dose of panacur for five days in a row in the end will kill off the large worm load. It does it over five days. Which the vast majority of horses handle easily.

(Where is that head banging on the wall smiley when you need it?)

(Double dosing of ivermectin is recommended for killing off some parasites, but obviously that is a specific situation and like has been said so very many times, it is something you would discuss with your vet, not something you would just run off and do on your own.)



Beauseant said:


> so some vets are now* recommending * underuse of wormer to lighten the load while still leaving enough to trigger an immune response.


Yes. I agree with this. It does sound weird but it is what vets are saying now. But under use is not the same as under dosing.

The vet does not say to use not enough deworming product when you do deworm.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> The vet does not say to use not enough deworming product when you do deworm.


 
Well, actually for the high shedders, yes, they are saying to use less than the reccomended dose. Their reasoning is that high worm load horses cannot mount an immune defense, so you want to kill off most but not all. Some have to remain to trigger the immune response. 

How many is needed to trigger the immune response has not been stated...and I suppose it varies from horse to horse.

How to come up with a guideline on how many to leave behind is going to be tricky.

It's a weird concept to be sure.....but I think it is a credible one. As the wormers fail one by one, what else do we have to hold on to? !! Funny thing is, in the end it may end up being what was there all along...the horse's immune system.

Ironic


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

That is not what my vet practice is suggesting. (Though I know you are going to say I am making that up.) My newest pony had a pretty crazy high worm count (not off the charts crazy, just crazy high considering the rest of mine are zero shedders and this pony came from a woman who insisted I should not have to do a pre-purchase because she takes such wonderful care of her animals but she had no clue when the last time they were dewormed was) when I bought her. I was told to give her a full tube of Equimax.

They realize that fecal counts are not the most accurate thing and even if you kill off to the point that they show none there are still worms in there.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Well, the problem is this:

The veterinary community has not established guidelines yet on how many worms should remain....

Nor what under dosage should be used

I suspect this is going to be a tricky situation, and vary widely.....

if a consensus is EVER reached.

so no, vets are not going to be practicing this newfangled under dosing for quite some time.....

If the idea EVER gains momentum that is.

I personally think it's worth considering, though.

What do you think?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Under dosing leads to resistance. Period.


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## zurmdahl (Feb 25, 2009)

I think everyone is pretty much getting at the same point and just getting confused over vocabulary. Not giving a horse the full dose it's suppose to get is what leads to resistance, I literally just learned about this in my AP bio class, and I'm sincerely doubting my teacher, the text book, and the multiple other sources we used to study were wrong. It leaves behind the worms that have more of a resistance than the ones that were initially killed off, so they all multiply, causing the whole issue. This is why is is extremely important to take your entire course of antibiotics, the bacteria do the same exact thing and it leads to the 'super bugs' that are popping up all over the place now. There was a really good video we watched about it but I doubt I can find it, I will do my best though


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Too much dewormer causing horse parasites resistance | Disease / Parasites 

*Too much dewormer causing horse parasites resistance *


 
Written by Lisa Kemp 



Parasitology experts, alarmed by signs of parasite resistance in global equine populations, are now advising a more sustainable approach to deworming, including different strategies in pasture management, fecal testing, and dewormer selection. Deworming is still necessary, but understanding how parasite resistance develops, and the latest guidance on equine parasite management, can guide you in making safe and effective choices for your horse.

*THE WORM DOCS*
Equine parasitologists are finding that parasite resistance to anthelmintics, drugs that expel parasitic worms (helminths), has increased since the 1950s. They’re sounding the alarm now because of the dearth of effective deworming drugs entering the marketplace, meaning we need to make sure what we have access to still works.

The parasitologists are also working to find solutions. Recent parasitology gatherings and conferences have focused on topics such as quantifying parasite resistance and developing sustainable practices. Eight video presentations from a March 2009 gathering at the University of Kentucky Gluck Equine Research Center have been recorded and archived at TheHorse.com, and together provide an overview of the issues and proposed solutions. Other informational resources are available online; simply do a search for ‘equine parasite resistance’ or related keywords.


The World Association for the Advancement of Veterinary Parasitology (WAAVP) conference, happening now (August 8-13) is titled ‘Parasites in a Changing Landscape.’ While the topic matter is broader than just equine, a quick scan of the scientific program shows that parasite resistance to anthelmintics, and managing and optimizing deworming protocols using fecal egg counts and sustainable practices, are hot topics in the industry.

*IT’S ABOUT TIME*
Parasite resistance didn’t develop overnight, and our past deworming practices played a role. Since the 1980s, a variety of over-the-counter paste wormers have made it easy to deworm horses according to the calendar. Squeeze, squirt, swallow -- another worm bites the dust. But that easy approach and sometimes prophylactic use of medication fostered an environment in which the parasites left behind are resistant to deworming medication, and they’re the ones passing on genes to future generations of parasites.

One indicator of anthelmintic resistance is the time interval between deworming and the recurrence of parasite eggs in the feces, referred to as an egg reappearance period (ERP). A 2008 study showed a shortened lifespan and maturation cycle in small strongyles (cyathostomes) following ivermectin treatment; the parasites returned more quickly than when ivermectin was first commercially available. The concern is that lower ERPs might indicate a resistant parasite population.

Experts differ in their opinion of just what constitutes a resistant population, whether it’s up to 25% of a population showing signs of resistance, or if it’s any indication of resistance at all. What they do agree on is that it’s irreversible.

*LET’S T
LET’S TALK WORMS
“When ivermectin came out about 30 years ago, Strongylus vulgaris (large strongyle) was the parasite we were targeting most; it did a large amount of damage to both young and adult horses,” says John Byrd, DVM, owner of Mahomet, Illinois-based Horsemen’s Laboratory. “Ivermectin killed adult S. vulgaris, but also 90% of the strongylus vulgaris larvae circulating through the horse. We never had a product that effective before,” says Dr. Byrd. “Due to ivermectin, we rarely see S. vulgaris anymore, yet we’re still deworming our horses as if it’s the big problem it was.”

Historically, large strongyles, also called bloodworms, were the origin of significant health issues in horse populations where they had gained a foothold. With larvae that migrate through a horse’s organs as well as its intestinal tract and arterial system, S. vulgaris have caused thromboembolism, colic, and death.

As for other parasites, they cause varying amounts of harm. Small strongyles are pesky and can bring about diarrhea and weight loss, but they remain in the gut for their lifecycle and don’t seem to cause the more serious health issues their larger brethren do. Various species of tapeworms (typically Anoplocephala magna or Anoplocephala perfoliata), long thought not to affect horses since segments dissolve in the large intestine and aren’t typically visible in manure, can contribute to a range of problems including ileal impaction or spasmodic (gas) colic.

Hoyt Cheramie, DVM, MS, DACVS, of Veterinary Professional Services at Merial Limited, says that ascarids (Parascaris equorum), also referred to as roundworms, are a serious issue for foals, and it’s the eggs that are infective. “After 10 days of being passed, ascarid eggs have infective larvae in them, and they can be picked up from almost any surface or contaminated water. Plus, they survive for an amazingly long time in the environment,” says Dr. Cheramie. The developing ascarid larvae travel through a foal’s liver and lungs, causing damage that can limit functionality and health. Fortunately, adult horses are generally resistant to ascarids.

Addressing parasites successfully has a proven, direct effect on the health of the horse; the question now is, what’s the best methodology to prevent parasite resistance and maintain anthelmintic efficacy?



Read rest of article at:
http://www.holistichorse.com/Disease-/-Parasites/equine-parasite-control-and-management.html 


*


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> another worm bites the dust. But that easy approach and sometimes prophylactic use of medication fostered an environment *in which the parasites left behind are resistant to deworming medication*, and they’re the ones passing on genes to future generations of parasites.


This is exactly what AB, SR, Indy and the others have been saying. If you don't give enough product to kill all the worms and the ones left behind are now resistant to the de-wormer. If you kill them all no resistance can build up. In the article they are talking about de-worming too often, not giving too much de-wormer at once. There are weaker de-wormers(such as panacure and safeguard) in which giving a high dose kills over numerous days *slowly *kills off the whole worm load over the course of the treatment.Everyone is pretty much in agreement that de-worming every 6-8 weeks is not an effective practice anymore. Get a fecal count and de-worm for what your horse is infected with rather then just taking a chance.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Umm....the POINT of the article was that the vet docs cannot stop the growing resistance...period. 

The general consensus is that it is likely too late 

The article discusses THE NEW theory swirling around the vet community now.....

And this new theory is to purposely under dose so that the horse has a light worm load but enough to trigger an immune response.

It is an odd theory, to be sure...but it is gaining some ground. Will it become the "new" way to treat equine worms? Who knows .. 

Depends on how people react to the idea of purposely leaving their horses with a light worm load, and how well the vet docs can get together and come up with guidelines.

The new theory does NOT address the under dosing causing worm resistance because, for the most part, that has become a storm that cannot be held back....the worms are and will continue to grow resistant..whether you dose your horse with double doses for two weeks, or a month....you cannot hold back the tide. 

So, the vet docs have decided that since they cannot stop the growing resistance, then they have to attack the worm problem on another front. Hence the article.

I repeat, the proposed under dosing causing worm resistance is not an issue per the new theory....because it is already happening.....

Who cares if the worms are resistant to every wormer on the market if your horse's immune system does the job?! 

In plain english, if the new theory works, wormers may be a thing of the past for healty horses with fully functioning immune systems ... Likely wormers would be used only on sick and debilitated animals.??!!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The problem is that not every part of the country has a resistance problem so to address it as though they do is only going to cause more of a problem.


I have been doings things differently when de worming my horses for about 12 years now. I have never de wormed every 6-8 weeks. I have only de wormed for what was needed and only when the count was up there. The only exception is with foals they get de wormed very 30 days for the first year and broodmares about 3-4 weeks prier to foaling and then 2 days after foaling.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Beauseant said:


> Umm....the POINT of the article was that the vet docs cannot stop the growing resistance...period.
> 
> So, the vet docs have decided that since they cannot stop the growing resistance, then they have to attack the worm problem on another front. Hence the article.


Vet docs? A veterinarian is a doctor.

Who is the author? What was her purpose in writing the article?


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

Well, amongst all of this fighting and such I just figured I'd let you all know that I got the fecal sample done. He did have worms, but not as much as I figured. He was only given 1100 lbs of the recommended dose of Equimax, and he needs to be dewormed approximately 4 times a year (at the beginning of every season). I did ask him about what his previous owner had been doing, and he said that it isn't as dangerous as it seems, depending on the severity of the wormer. Equimax should never be double dosed with, especially twice in 2 weeks. As for my horse, which is an ex standardbred racehorse, he said that it isn't all too uncommon. My horse, for example, will hold a good amount of the wormer in his cheek and spit it out when you're not looking, thus a bit of a second wormer may be needed to get the job done.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Java, I don't even try to fight with my horses about taking dewormer. I dissolve it in water then pour it over their feed. Let the water soak into the feed, stir it up, and give it to the horse.

Of course, I have geldings so they're all food hounds. I've heard this approach may not work with mares or really suspicious geldings, but even my PITA diva-esque Arab readily accepts the food with 'poison' in it. :wink:

Might be something you want to try as it will save you time, money, and frustration. I'm all for anything that makes horse keeping easier!


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## JavaLover (Nov 7, 2009)

Hmm.. do you think that will work? My horse is a gelding also and he will literally eat anything! Maybe that's worth a try, thanks for the suggestion! It would definitely be less of a hassle than dealing with his hate for dewormers, hahaha


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My old poco mare dose not like you to touch her mouth and deworming her was always a fight so I have always just put it on her feed. She has no problems eating it. Even with the others if I am in a hurry I do the same thing. They all eat it that way just fine.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Java, I don't even try to fight with my horses about taking dewormer. I dissolve it in water then pour it over their feed. Let the water soak into the feed, stir it up, and give it to the horse.
> 
> Of course, I have geldings so they're all food hounds. I've heard this approach may not work with mares or really suspicious geldings, but even my PITA diva-esque Arab readily accepts the food with 'poison' in it. :wink:
> 
> Might be something you want to try as it will save you time, money, and frustration. I'm all for anything that makes horse keeping easier!


I do this with all three of mine (one gelding, two mares). 
Some deworming products I have to add a little molasses to the mix, others I do not. Trial and error.


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