# 4 year old 18 hand OTTB



## tinyliny

the first thing I see is that he is quite ewe necked, and his neck is set on pretty low, with big shark fin withers. His hip is angled forward quite alot , so he has a really flat croup. and it's a small hip , too. the angle, rotate forward so much, make his hind legs rather sickle hocked. 

he has a nice shoulder, with a good open angle at the point of shoulder, and his knees are big, with decent bone. pasterns are a bit long looking, but might be in proportion with the rest.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

thank you!


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

anybody else have any opinions on him?


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## Nikkibella

Who measured him ? If he is 18hh , that would make the woman holding him in the photo +6'5 :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikkibella

The only thing I see really is that his pasterns appear pretty long so I wouldn't advise too much hard jumping
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

He looks like he's still growing into himself in those pics - probably a late mature. I'd like to see what he looks like this summer when he's fully grown and in better condition - I'm sure he's going to be a very different horse


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## Corporal

Nikkibella said:


> Who measured him ? If he is 18hh , that would make the woman holding him in the photo +6'5 :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Remeasure him. My KMH is 16'3hh, his back measures 5'6" off of the ground, and his withers measure 5'7" off of the ground. I am 5'4" tall and both back and withers are taller than me. I suspect that your guy is about THAT height.
Agreed about the neck, but IMHO the legs are more important, and you can strengthen the neck. No hoof, nor horse AND poor legs, poor horse. I see no problems with the legs and the back. I don't think he'd make a good jumping candidate, but his flatwork should be ok, so maybe a Dressage candidate? Long pasterns don't help. I think you are looking at a horse with conformation faults, but they aren't too bad.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

the vet did when I bought him. he was 17.3 1/2 and he grew little bit since I got him. I am 5'6 which is 66 inches. 18 hands is 72 inches. if I did the math correctly. I can not see the top of his back. the pic must have been at a weird angle, and I was leaning back for some reason. I don't know. but he is definitely 18 hands if not a tiny big taller.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

yeah these pictures are soon after when I got him. and he still had a baby face and looked not mature. I guess I should have posted up to date photos! I just dont have any loaded on my computer.


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## Corporal

ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey said:


> the vet did when I bought him. he was 17.3 1/2 and he grew little bit since I got him. I am 5'6 which is 66 inches. 18 hands is 72 inches. if I did the math correctly. I can not see the top of his back. the pic must have been at a weird angle, and I was leaning back for some reason. I don't know. but he is definitely 18 hands if not a tiny big taller.


Sorry, he would be 6 inches taller than you. *Height does not equal quality.* I still think he looks like the same height as my gelding, 16'2-16'3hh. 

Zenyatta â€” Forum








Zenyatta is reported to be 17'3hh, the height that you say that your horse is. I would take a tape measure and measure again. My gelding has a 7 ft measured girth, and is an anamoly bc KMH's are preferred to be one hand shorter than he is. It only works for me and my DH bc my DH is 6'5" tall and looks great on a taller horse.

I prefer 15'2hh myself and we've had many interesting threads here about height preferances. There is no rhyme or reason why people like certain heights, but everyone agrees, the taller the horse, the HARDER it is to mount!
This is a picture of my 15'3hh QH, and the "help" is about my height, just for comparison.

Also, bigger horses and bigger dogs don't tend to have the longevity of smaller breeds, just FYI.


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## Zexious

The ewe neck was the first thing I noticed... And then his pretty color 

Corporal--That sure is a pretty bay. <3

For what it's worth, I'm generally a fan of taller horses. It's just personal preference, really.


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## jaydee

This horse was 17.2 and I'm 5ft 4 so I don't think your horse is 18 hands - might be an off angle though
Not that height matters that much - in fact it was a disadvantage to this horse when jumping courses had related distances set for an average 16.2 or were really tight - I had to work that much harder on having him canter on a really collected energetic stride and be able to shorten his stride at a touch


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

okay corporal...I never said that the taller a horse is makes the horse better. my first two horses were 15'2 and the next one 15'3. So I dont know why you feel the need to say that? I find that kind of rude. You do not need to be telling me how shorter horses are better for you etc... I never even said that gigantic horses are better then the average and shorties. I fell in love with smokey because of his personality, not his height. so please refrain yourself from those comments because they are untrue. and I know how tall he is, he is 18 hands. maybe a dash taller. if you were next to him you would not doubt it.he is taller then me. I was there when the vet measured him. and I know he grew a tiny bit.


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## Corporal

Thanks, Zexious! He is actually registered black, but bleaches this color every summer. My Amish farrier says that he is _"Amish Black,"_ black ONLY if you keep the black horse indoors all summer.


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## Corporal

Sorry, OP, not trying to be rude. I didn't call him "UGLY!!", or you either. *THAT would be rude.*
Many of us here have years of experience, training and study. I, for instance am NOT expert on how to breed color, and I'm not the best HERE to talk about conformation, either, but facts are facts. Face that you don't know everything, and take everyone's comments graciously, and sometimes, with a grain of salt, if it is an opinion.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I understand that I dont know everything! trust me. i got soo much to learn! and I know for fact that I have very little knowledge compared to some on HF. With horses, you will never stop learning, nobody will know everything. that's why I asked about his conformation because I know I do not know much. You didn't really state any facts corporal. You said how height does not mean quality and things on that line. I never said it did! I just feel you weren't stating anything that was helpful or productive. and why is it so hard to believe he 6 inches taller then me? I know that pic is deceiving. I dont know why it looks like that.. but he is. stand next to him and you will know. but like I said, it doesn't matter how tall he is and how short yours is. too me the bond between horse and its owner is most important. and I love him for him. we have a bond, and that's why I love him..not because I tower over others. I could care less if I on a horse that's bigger then most or if I riding a short cute pony. its all about the bond to me.


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## Corporal

I am glad you love your horse.


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## morganarab94

I'm not really sure where Corporal said anything that was so negative...but anyway. 
I'm not much on confo either, but he is very pretty. I love greys.


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## Zexious

Amish black... That's interesting! I've never heard that term before. /SorryToHighjack


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## morganarab94

Zexious said:


> Amish black... That's interesting! I've never heard that term before. /SorryToHighjack


Me neither! But I kinda like the term.:lol:


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## Zexious

^Me too. Amish people are silly. <3 I like'um! xD

OP, what are you plans for your handsome boy? ^^


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## JustDressageIt

With some filling out, weight, and correct muscle he will look a lot different than he does now.. Poor guy looks like he was put together by a committee and being young and gangly doesn't help either. He reminds me of a gelding a used to work with - heart of a saint, that guy. Anyways. He has quite the open angle through his pelvis through to his stifle. He's got your typical shark fin wither which extends quite a ways back, past his point of balance. His neck is attached low and has quite the ewe shape to it. His pasterns are a bit longer than I'd like. His shoulder is quite straight. 
All in all, correct work will improve his look quite a bit, but it obviously won't change the basic skeletal structure underneath. I'd be willing to bet it's going to be a battle and a half getting him to work correctly through his back. He will look a lot different with correct muscle and as he starts to mature and fill out. What are your plans with him?


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

he was raced only few times before they realized he doesn't have the drive to want to run to be successful. I brought him a long way since the track, and he is doing great, but now I looking for a trainer because I want to improve myself. I like to try little bit of everything. I mostly enjoy going on long trail rides. I not into competing. but maybe some small shows just for fun. I really do however, really interested in dressage. Really find in so beautiful and think I would really enjoy it. I live in western texas in middle of nowhere, and everyone rides western here. so it will be very difficult to find a dressage trainer here. I also want to do some small jumps. nothing crazy. just time to time.


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## Elana

I don't care about his height. He looks 16 hh but I don't care. If he is 16hh he will likely stay sound longer. 

He, like any horse, is not without faults. In the fault department the first thing I notice is his wasp waist (arrows). the dashed line along his stomach to his flank is where his bottom line should be. He has a very flat croup and a weak hind quarter with a high placed point of buttock. The dashed line shows (sort of.. my drawing with a mouse is not good) where his but should be. It cannot be there because that is how he is built. He is also a bit sickle hocked (see dashed line from hock to ground). 

His shoulder is pretty good but he is built down hill. Dressage will not be his forte. His front leg is good (matching the shoulder) and his bone is adequate. His neck ties into knife withers quite low. He is not going to be an easy saddle fit. Due to the low set at the withers that indicates a ewe neck he has over developed muscles on the underside of his neck. 

He will do fine at low levels. His rear end lacks power for large jumps and his down hill build will make dressage a challenge. He may (and I mean MAY) do OK jumping up to 2'6" but be careful. A horse with such a weak build behind with a flat croup and ewe neck set may tend to jump high headed and back hollow.. bringing his back legs down on the jump. 

Lots of trotting up long hills with you in a 2 point and very light contact will help this horse a lot as such work will stretch his top line and build his abdominal muscles. 

Pretty color.


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## Strawberry4Me

Corporal said:


> Sorry, OP, not trying to be rude. I didn't call him "UGLY!!", or you either. *THAT would be rude.*
> Many of us here have years of experience, training and study. I, for instance am NOT expert on how to breed color, and I'm not the best HERE to talk about conformation, either, but facts are facts. Face that you don't know everything, and take everyone's comments graciously, and sometimes, with a grain of salt, if it is an opinion.


I am not much for conformation myself, but when you see a title that says a horse is 18hh, you HAVE to look! My immediate thoughts were that this horse is nowhere near 18hh. Maybe the pictures are just bad angles and he's grown since they were taken. Benefit of the doubt here- but in general people tend to think their horses are bigger than they really are. 

I didn't think anything you said was offensive. I hope its not just the OP being DEfensive. 

I love his color, and since he is so young, I bet he is going to lighten up quite a bit! He will be very pretty!


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## Rideordie112

Very very pretty color! But I don't believe that horse is 18 hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

I also think he is 16 something…it would be REALLY unusual for a TB to be 18 hh. Anyway-what is up with his left hind? Does that look really wonky to anyone else? Perhaps it is how he is standing.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I apologize for being defensive. I just don't like it when people make it out like I am saying something when I wasn't. Anyways thank you Elana! very informative. I appreciate it. I just plan on having fun with him, I don't need him to be a high jumper or amazing at dressage, just the basics. Like I said I mostly enjoy going on long trail rides. Im sorry that you guys do not believe how tall he is. he really Is 18 hands. I been around 16 hand horses a lot. Actually one of my closest friends who I used to ride with her horse is 16.1. well I don't care if you guys believe me or not. I know the truth. whoever sees him in person will believe it. anyways, do you recommend any other exercises or work outs I can do to improve him? I used to live in KY with him, and always did hill work. i now live in practically desert, so it is very flat. thank you for the people who gave me their knowledge on his conformation.


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## DuckDodgers

What really strikes me about him (mostly in the second and third picture) is that, as others have mentioned already, he has a very flat croup and weak hind end along with an ewe neck. His front looks much better, but I think that his hind end will restrict you quite a bit if you have any strenuous jumping or dressage plans for him. My guess would be that posting more up to date photos would do him a lot of favors! He has a really sweet face! He looks to be kind and quiet, which is ideal. I also love his color- and I am NOT a fan of grays. I would love them if they always stayed his color :wink: :wink:

You seemed to get touchy when his height was mentioned, but I do have to agree that I don't think he is 18hh. Most folks (vets included!) tend to drastically overestimate their horses' heights. If you're happy with your horse then whatever height they are is great, but since the trend is for taller horses most sales ads list horses as well taller than they are. Most horses listed as 17hh that I've seen in person are barely pushing 16. I'm not going to tell you not to keep thinking that he is 18hh, but his withers would be 6" past the top of your head (not eye level).


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

oh thank you Duckdodgers! can you fix ewe necks? or improve it? He is very quiet and one of kindest horses I ever met. I don't mean to be touchy about his height, I just don't get why nobody believes he is 18hands. I am saying the truth. I not just guessing or exaggerating. his withers are around 6 inches higher then the top of my head. but I give up trying to convince everyone he is. i know for fact he is, and that is all that matters. but to me it really doesn't matter that he is that tall. i can admit that getting on him is sometimes a BIG hassle and sometimes extremely uncomfortable because of my lack of flexibility lol


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

and i definitely should have posted up to date photos. cause at least to my eye, he looks much better. obviously you cant change bone structure. but he does look better and more mature.


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## DuckDodgers

An ewe neck can be fixed to a certain degree, depending on the cause. Some are caused by true conformation defects, and there's not too much you can do about that. For example, like a long back will be a long back, a conformational ewe neck will be such. Sometimes the cause is incorrect muscling, in which case correct work will help to fix the problem. Your horse seems to have a poorly developed topline as well(due partially to his age), so you may be able to fix it to a certain degree with correct working. How to do that? I'm probably not the best person on the forum to ask!

As far as his height goes? You can think and tell people whatever you want. That won't affect your horse in any way. However, unless you show me with a stick besides him I wouldn't believe that this horse is 18 hands. Sorry. We may have to agree to disagree on that one, but I feel pretty strongly about it- it doesn't affect me in the slightest, but I'm not gonna agree for the sake of agreeing! I have a friend with what she claims to be a 19hh Belgian/tb cross. Lovely horse, but he's at least two hands shorter than that. He has a loving home with her, so she isn't doing him a disservice by calling him such. It's just not an accurate portrayal, so I just smile and nod!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherrij

ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey said:


> and i definitely should have posted up to date photos. cause at least to my eye, he looks much better. obviously you cant change bone structure. but he does look better and more mature.


you can still add more photos, to see the change etc.


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## Ellieandrose

I am no agreeing or disagreeing on the height. But, for a comparison this is Omega. My horse is next to her, Denny(my horse) is around 14.1hh. The person behind Omega would be 5'8. I have a horse height tape measure and it goes to 17.3hh, it's too short for her. And no doubt the photo will be side ways. I can figure out how to fix it.


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## GracielaGata

Ellieandrose said:


> I am no agreeing or disagreeing on the height. But, for a comparison this is Omega. My horse is next to her, Denny(my horse) is around 14.1hh. The person behind Omega would be 5'8. I have a horse height tape measure and it goes to 17.3hh, it's too short for her. And no doubt the photo will be side ways. I can figure out how to fix it.


I also couldn't care less about the height of this horse... I just wanted to comment on your pic- your boy is beautiful, and I love the contrast with Omega! My mare is 14.2ish... I say -ish because I am perfectly fine if she is 14.1, 14.0, .... lol The shorter she is, in my mind, if I ever fall, the fall will be less, lol. But I am fairly 99% sure that she is 14.2 (good commitment, right?!) It looks like Omega could eat your horse fro breakfast... not to count the missing person behind him!  Anyhoo. Beautiful horse!


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## jaydee

Lets have those more recent pics please - Its not really fair to critique him on the old ones when he's obviously still growing


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## Elana

If you do not have hills to work this horse, then build Cavaletti. You need 8 and they need to be 10 feet long poles such that they can be raised. Start with trotting over one. Add two (on the ground). Work up to 8 (about 5 days to get up to 8). Then work a week with 8 on the ground. Change the distance between them a little so he has to lengthen stride to get through them. Raise them up (they will need to be a little closer together). Eventually get them up to 12 inches off the ground and have him trot over those with you in a 2 point. 

As to his height, why not just get a stick and measure him? I bought a horse height measuring stick years ago. Still have it. I would go look at horses and someone would say in the ad the horse was 16.2 hands (perfect size for field hunter and so forth). I would go look at the horse with stick in hand.. and most of those 16 plus hh horses were 15.2 or 15.3 hh which also made a drastic difference in price (1970's). 
It was sort of fun to stick the horse and watch the owner's face. Most of the 16.2 horses were 16 hh. 

Anyway, what you need is a second person, a stick as tall as your horse's withers with a line level taped to it (so you get it plumb). A second stick with a line level taped along the top edge that is long enough to reach the horse's withers. A magic marker. Get the horse holder to hold the horse and you put the vertical stick next to the front leg and the horizontal stick over to the withers. Mark the vertical stick with a magic marker and then get a tape and measure the length.. ground to mark. 

Trust me on this. If you want a long and fun life with this horse you should be thrilled if he sticks at 16 hh or less. JMO.


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## CandyCanes

Elana said:


> Trust me on this. If you want a long and fun life with this horse you should be thrilled if he sticks at 16hh or less. JMO.


Aha! Someone else who thinks that the size of the horse affects its soundness! I couldn't agree more! Horses were absolutely not meant to get to 18hh. They wren't even meant to get to 15.2hh. But we made them like that. And look where we are now. Lame horses left, right and center. I am a little annoyed that diddly is 16.1/2, because I don't feel I can push him as hard. Candy was tiny. Only 13.3hh... She could do ANYTHING. Yet diddly is twice her size, and you won't see him tearing around the country side like a mad thing. 

So seriously OP... Put a stick to him. If you don't have a stick, borrow a stick, or buy a stick. I am highly doubting that horse is 18hh. Highly. He looks about 16hh to me. At most. So get a stick and measure him. And post those more recent pictures too please.


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## SullysRider

CandyCanes said:


> Aha! Someone else who thinks that the size of the horse affects its soundness! I couldn't agree more! Horses were absolutely not meant to get to 18hh. They wren't even meant to get to 15.2hh. But we made them like that. And look where we are now. Lame horses left, right and center. I am a little annoyed that diddly is 16.1/2, because I don't feel I can push him as hard. Candy was tiny. Only 13.3hh... She could do ANYTHING. Yet diddly is twice her size, and you won't see him tearing around the country side like a mad thing.
> 
> So seriously OP... Put a stick to him. If you don't have a stick, borrow a stick, or buy a stick. I am highly doubting that horse is 18hh. Highly. He looks about 16hh to me. At most. So get a stick and measure him. And post those more recent pictures too please.


I have also seen a correlation between size and future soundness, the bigger guys just don't seem to stay sound as long. Which is why I was shopping for 16.2 and under this last time around (don't ask how I ended up with 17.3 (he may even be taller))


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## jaydee

I'm not sure if its the size of the horse that causes the problem as much as the fact that people don't allow big horses enough time to mature. They can look fully grown as 2 yr olds because they're already quite tall but their joints and bones are still developing. The grey I rode was 15.2 as a 3 year old and in good condition but we didn't break him until he was 4 by which time he'd grown to 16.3 and still shot up a few more inches after that
He competed and hunted all his life and lived to be a good age with no soundness issues at all


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## rhosroyalvelvet

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure if its the size of the horse that causes the problem as much as the fact that people don't allow big horses enough time to mature. They can look fully grown as 2 yr olds because they're already quite tall but their joints and bones are still developing. The grey I rode was 15.2 as a 3 year old and in good condition but we didn't break him until he was 4 by which time he'd grown to 16.3 and still shot up a few more inches after that
> He competed and hunted all his life and lived to be a good age with no soundness issues at all


I don't think size causes soundness issues. Soundness issues come from conformation issues, hereditary issues or as said above being pushed too hard to young. If a horse has correctly sized legs and hooves in proportion to their size they should be able to carry their upper body with no problems. And if they are correctly put together they should be able to move correctly and should have no problems with unsure footing. And if you look at ponies with bad conformation you will see that they get lame more often than well put together ponies. It's the same with horses.

If you are trying to say that horses weren't meant to be 18hh originally thats fine but please bear in mind they weren't supposed to be 13hh or 12hh or even 11hh originally either. They were only a couple of inches tall and had three toes as you probably know. Horses evolved, they changed so they are taller now than they were originally. Yes some are taller than we ever imagined but that is not the cause of lameness in horses. Good conformation will always prevail.

You say that ponies are lame less often than horses and you blame this on size? Mabey you should take into consideration that ponies have more native pony in them than horses do. The native ponies lived on the mountains and the moorlands so naturally have stronger feet and legs. So would it not be logical to say that if they are more closely related to the native ponies than horses are they are more likely to inherit the stong feet and legs? 

So hopefully from those few points you can see why I think it is nonsense to blame lameness completely on height.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

im not going to be wasting my money on buying a measuring stick, because quite frankly I don't really care if people online do not believe how tall he is. I was present when the vet measured him with the measuring stick. he was on a cement so it was perfectly straight. it showed 17.3 1/2 hands. He did it correctly and he was standing square, and the cement was perfectly even. he measured that high on Oct 19 of 2012. I have no need to buy a stick, because I know that he grew little bit since I got him. if someone I know has one handy, sure I will measure him to see how much he grew since I got him, but I don't really care how much he grew since then, because it does not matter to me how tall he is. I know he grew at least 1/2 inch so I say he 18 hands. even though he prob is even lil taller then that. I really am done talking about how people doubt his hight and how I should go prove it with a measuring stick. when I know the truth. I made this post to see his conformation and to see if I could improve his faults.

Thank you Elana for the advice, I will definitely do that as soon as I can. I do not have the poles. So I will have to buy them when I save up enough money. 

Does anyone else have any advice on exercises and workouts I should do with him? I probably wont be able to get a trainer for a while, so I look forward to your advice.


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## boldnheart

Honey, we just don't want you to look silly when you say your horse is 18 hh around other people. That horse is NOT 18 hh. I had a 16.1 horse and I am 5'8". Your horse looks about the same in height as him. If he was 18 hh you would need at least a stool to get on him. If everyone thinks he's not 18 hh, then he probably isn't 18 hh. Just accept it.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I do need a stool to get on him... i cant get on him without being on a mounting block or fence. even then I still need to reach. and that pic with me in it is wrong angle or something cause I know it looks like he isn't that big. but it just looks that way in the picture. his withers are six inches above my head. I kept him at a pretty big barn. with over 40 people easily. and they all know he that big. nobody who sees him and stands next to him doubts it. I don't look silly saying he that big, when he truly is that big. I think you guys sound silly saying he not because I countless times telling you the truth. so don't be telling me he is NOT that big. cause YES he is THAT big. some lady who I rode with had a Belgium who was 18 hands exactly, and my horse and hers were the same height if not a dash taller. her horse was obviously round while smokey was skin and bones compared to him. 

and I cant believe I started this thread to get help from people who are knowledgeable about conformation and it turned into a battle over how tall he is. I wish that people would just post on here to help me with what I was asking...how his conformation is and how I could improve it if it was possible.


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## Yogiwick

rhosroyalvelvet said:


> I don't think size causes soundness issues. Soundness issues come from conformation issues, hereditary issues or as said above being pushed too hard to young. If a horse has correctly sized legs and hooves in proportion to their size they should be able to carry their upper body with no problems. And if they are correctly put together they should be able to move correctly and should have no problems with unsure footing. And if you look at ponies with bad conformation you will see that they get lame more often than well put together ponies. It's the same with horses.
> 
> If you are trying to say that horses weren't meant to be 18hh originally thats fine but please bear in mind they weren't supposed to be 13hh or 12hh or even 11hh originally either. They were only a couple of inches tall and had three toes as you probably know. Horses evolved, they changed so they are taller now than they were originally. Yes some are taller than we ever imagined but that is not the cause of lameness in horses. Good conformation will always prevail.
> 
> You say that ponies are lame less often than horses and you blame this on size? Mabey you should take into consideration that ponies have more native pony in them than horses do. The native ponies lived on the mountains and the moorlands so naturally have stronger feet and legs. So would it not be logical to say that if they are more closely related to the native ponies than horses are they are more likely to inherit the stong feet and legs?
> 
> So hopefully from those few points you can see why I think it is nonsense to blame lameness completely on height.




I do agree with what you are saying but what I got out of that post and also agree with is the gangly awkwardness some big horses have. Picture really tall awkward teenagers all arms and legs. I know a young big warmblood who is nicely built and proportional who keeps on hurting himself because he's in a very awkward stage and doesn't know where his feet are! Of course a young pony may not be super coordinated but its never as much of an issue.


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## Yogiwick

You can't improve conformation. You can improve muscling and work with his conformation to train him the best/easiest way possible.


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## shesocalifornia

Have any recent pictures? Would love to see then compared to now.  young horses are always changing and growing although some things will not change. Angle of the photo can make something seem shorter. Was someone taking the picture from above you both? I would just post some new photos so we can see how he has filled out.  my horse is 15.3 and I have trouble getting on....I swear he grew more lol but I think I am shrinking!!! Lol...happens as you get older.  pretty boy ..


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

Yes he was. he was on a rock that was on the edge of the woods. I wanted him to capture his feet so he stood on the rock. don't have any recent photos yet. in all of them that I have he is moving, or weird angles, or he trying to eat the camera. its like he realizes when I trying to take a pic of him, cause he immediately puts his nose to camera or moves around. Right now he is a fuzz ball, so you cant really tell how he changed so when he looses his winter coat I will take some! I missing an sd card that has good photos on it of him but I lost it somewhere because I moved recently. so I will be looking for it in the meantime.


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## tinyliny

I have only lightly perused the answers you have gotten. I gave my impression at the beginning, and the two negative points I made were his ewe neck and his hip angle (and thus weak hind end). you cannot change what he is born with , but you can improve it with correct riding. that would be , as Elana said, doing hill work to get him pushing with his hind end, and tucking under as much as he physically can. And avoiding any kind of riding where your horse braces tightly against the bit (and thus has hard muscles under his neck but flaccid ones on the upper edge.). the "long and low" exersize is often prescribed for re-balancing a ewe neck. look that up, both here and on the web in general. cavaletti work, and transitions always help to build the hind end and the abdominal muscles which support the back and hip.

I also see what looks like a hint of an underrun heel on his hind feet. the angle of his coronet band is just a wee bit on the steep side, which, as I said, hints at underrun heels. those can put a strain on the hind leg tendons and encourage a flat hip angle (rolled forward) and a sickle hocked stance as the horse tries to relieve the exaggerated pull on the tendons that are up the back side of the leg.

Elana, help me out here. I have a feeling for what I want to say , but not the words.


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## DuffyDuck

As someone who owned an 18.1hh beastie, he certainly looks smaller. I would re-stick him just to make sure. What harm can it do? I am also 5ft6, and have just checked out pictures of me standing next to the mare. I will post them to here later to show you.

To be quite honest, I would never want to own such a big horse again. For our height it takes an awful lot to try and put them together and get good work. Not to mention the elephant sized poops..


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## Shacane

franknbeans said:


> I also think he is 16 something…it would be REALLY unusual for a TB to be 18 hh. Anyway-what is up with his left hind? Does that look really wonky to anyone else? Perhaps it is how he is standing.


I think it's the way he's standing.

I'm 6'2 and that's how I look standing next to an 18hh horse...photos can be deceiving though. And his height isn't relevant to his conformation IMO. This whole "he is!"/"he doesn't look like it" argument is pretty silly.


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## DuffyDuck

I don't think its a silly thing at all, its informative. 

If someone says their horse is chestnut when its quite clearly grey, you help inform people.

This is the mare I had. She was 18hh-18.1hh. She grew when I had her, so I am unsure of her height in this picture. My mum is 5ft2. The one of myself and her I can't upload from work. As you can see, the horse isn't exactly small.

I would put Smokey between 17.1hh-17.2hh at a push. He is a nice size, and with good work will build up a nice topline and look more in proportion. As he is four, he will still grow and may get a few more centimeters. 

I would stick him again now and then you can chart his growth.


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## Shacane

DuffyDuck said:


> I don't think its a silly thing at all, its informative.
> 
> If someone says their horse is chestnut when its quite clearly grey, you help inform people.
> 
> This is the mare I had. She was 18hh-18.1hh. She grew when I had her, so I am unsure of her height in this picture. My mum is 5ft2. The one of myself and her I can't upload from work. As you can see, the horse isn't exactly small.
> 
> I would put Smokey between 17.1hh-17.2hh at a push. He is a nice size, and with good work will build up a nice topline and look more in proportion. As he is four, he will still grow and may get a few more centimeters.
> 
> I would stick him again now and then you can chart his growth.


Yes, I understand how it could be informative. But to ARGUE about it, as is being done here is SILLY.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I agree with you completely Shacane. I did not make this thread to argue his height. I know I obviously part of this argument. but it was the pictures angle and it is a deceiving photo! I only posted that he 18 hands because I really do not know much about conformation at all, and didn't know if it was important for people to know how tall he is.


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## Elana

To answer Tinyliny's question about hind foot.. it looks as if the near hind foot has its heel dropped and/or the toe elevated (might be standing with a stone under the toe). If that foot is on the level and still looks like that there is an issue as the horse is standing on his heel not on the entirety of the foot. This will put tremendous stress on the hock and can worsen soundness in a sickle hocked horse.

As to size and soundness NO QUESTION a poorly conformed small horse can be more unsound than a correctly conformed large horse. A large horse well conformed and a small horse equally well conformed with both horses put at a similarly strenuous task, the small horse usually stays sounder longer. It is simple physics. 

Say you want to do 3 day eventing. You have an 18hh horse and a 16 hh horse. The 18hh horse will weigh more and just simply put more wear and tear on joints, tendons and ligaments even if they are well aligned. Assuming no accidents, the 16 hh horse will _probably_ last longer in the sport. 

Dogs are the same way.. a German Shepherd that is over size and weighs over 100 pounds will not physically have the number of useful years his equally well conformed 75 pound brother will have. 

No one is dissing size.. just physics and things such as arthritis. Wear and tear.


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## boldnheart

How tall do you think this mare is ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey?


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## alyssaanne

Lol. Well to contribute to the off topic discussion...boldnheart: if I'm to assume you're of average height, I'd assume your mare is between 16.2-17.1 hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alyssaanne

Guess in the dark. Only comparing to where my leg hits on the horse I ride. I'm about 5'5" and I ride a 16.3 horse and my foots in a similar (a bit lower) position to yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boldnheart

alyssaanne said:


> Lol. Well to contribute to the off topic discussion...boldnheart: if I'm to assume you're of average height, I'd assume your mare is between 16.2-17.1 hands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't meant to be off topic haha. I was just letting the OP-er view what her horse's height appears to be at instead of this massive 18 hands horse she claims she has. My mare in that picture is 16.1 hands.


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## wyominggrandma

This is the worlds tallest TB listed in the Guiness Book.... 19.2 hands
La Grande Chavel.


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## alyssaanne

boldnheart said:


> It wasn't meant to be off topic haha. I was just letting the OP-er view what her horse's height appears to be at instead of this massive 18 hands horse she claims she has. My mare in that picture is 16.1 hands.


Lol. Well I was sort of close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I am done with this thread. I couldn't possibly care less of what you guys think. I not trying to make a record either. its just the truth. i can not help that he that tall. I don't care that he that tall and i have no reason to lie about it. I had 2 horses who were less then 16 hands. One being much better trained then Smokey. that makes no sense to me. height does not matter to me at all. I just said he was 18 hands cause I didn't know if you needed to know for his conformation. i know that its not common for TB to be that tall. but it does happen. move on. its really getting old. if you don't believe he that tall, then keep your stupid comments to yourselves.


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## Oliveren15

I agree about the ewe neck and flat croup. I may be seeing things, but he looks a little tied in at the knee. He's adorable though, he has a very sweet looking face. 

And really guys, has this conformation critique request thread just turned into everyone jumping down ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey's throat about her horses height? Pictures more often than not distort reality. And like I've heard echoed throughout this forum many times, Lets stay on topic here. I'm sure the OP has had enough about hearing about her horses height.


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## tinyliny

Moderator note:
This is a conformation critique thread. The OP asked for opinions on her horse. You can certainly say that you think he might not be as big as she says, but please do not belabor the point, and do not make personal jabs . She did not ever say that bigger was better, just that he IS big, and we can see that.

so, what about his conformation?


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

thank you Oliveren. It is getting annoying. how does a flat croup effect a horse?


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## Roperchick

I'm not gonna beat a dead horse here about height. pics can be deceiving. i personally wouldnt call that horse at 18hh (sorry OP)

but just to kind of put in my 2 cents.....if you look at this thread-http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/putting-things-into-perspective-not-343401/#post4724745

you can see how view of height and measurement can really be up for debate just looking at a picture.


back on topic. the biggest thing that stands out with me for him is his hind quarters. i think if he can build up some bulk and muscle he'll look alot better. i think y'all can be pretty good if you build some muscle.

You willing to share any updated pics OP?


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I don't have any photos on this computer. and I lost my sd card that does, so I don't have any at moment. I will definitely be working on muscling him up more. he has gained muscle since those pictures, but I definitely have much more work I need to do. I just need to find a trainer to work with!


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey

I hoping by end of summer, i will get him in better shape. and then get a trainer in fall to help me improve. you can never stop improving your riding.


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## nitapitalou

If you could post some current pictures, that would help a lot! The bigger horses take a long time to mature and unfortunately, racing Thoroughbreds, trainers push to get on the track by the time that they are 2, meaning that a lot of these guys have riders on their backs when they are only a year and a half old. Carrying that extra weight, little as those jockeys are, puts so much strain on growing joints. 

I'd work on muscle building and teaching him to carry himself with balance and flexibility. I think he will have a hard time "lightening" up his front end with the weaker hind at the moment. 

Try not to take offense to what people are saying, though I understand that is hard when you love your horse! I don't think anyone has meant you disrespect. I haven't been brave enough to put pics of my filly on the critique thread yet. Partially, she is young and growing, she changes so much; she is one of the big ones too, and she may look gorgeous at one moment, but the next I cringe. Okay, well not really cringe, because she is perfect in my mind, but.........  The other, is we have FINALLY gotten some much needed rain. She is loving it and is a huge mud ball at the moment.

As to the, uggg, height issue, it wouldn't hurt to restick him, for your own information. If he was 3 when you got him, he has grown. Having his true, final height is helpful for you to know. Like, will he fit in a friend's trailer without bonking his head. ***Grin*** 

Enjoy him, that is the most important thing!


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## tinyliny

yep, trailer limitations are a good thing to know ahead of time. good point, Nitapitalou


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## GracielaGata

nitapitalou said:


> If you could post some current pictures, that would help a lot! The bigger horses take a long time to mature and unfortunately, racing Thoroughbreds, trainers push to get on the track by the time that they are 2, meaning that a lot of these guys have riders on their backs when they are only a year and a half old. Carrying that extra weight, little as those jockeys are, puts so much strain on growing joints.
> 
> I'd work on muscle building and teaching him to carry himself with balance and flexibility. I think he will have a hard time "lightening" up his front end with the weaker hind at the moment.
> 
> Try not to take offense to what people are saying, though I understand that is hard when you love your horse! I don't think anyone has meant you disrespect. I haven't been brave enough to put pics of my filly on the critique thread yet. Partially, she is young and growing, she changes so much; she is one of the big ones too, and she may look gorgeous at one moment, but the next I cringe. Okay, well not really cringe, because she is perfect in my mind, but.........  The other, is we have FINALLY gotten some much needed rain. She is loving it and is a huge mud ball at the moment.
> 
> As to the, uggg, height issue, it wouldn't hurt to restick him, for your own information. If he was 3 when you got him, he has grown. Having his true, final height is helpful for you to know. Like, will he fit in a friend's trailer without bonking his head. ***Grin***
> 
> Enjoy him, that is the most important thing!


Hehe, so true on the trailer fit! 
My DH"s BLM mustang gelding.. only ever had one trailer/one owner before us... at first he hated our trailer, since it was not a Thuro-built, i.e. taller.... When we finally convinced his 15.2 self to get on it, dippy jumped onto it, b/c he was nervous of it... he hit his poor noggin... after that he had no problems or fear, and never again did he hit his head... he overdid his head lowering for the longest time! 
Unrelated, but a funny story about trailer vs. horse heights.


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## Elana

A flat croup equals a weak back and lack of power behind. Such a croup limits hind leg forward reach and such horse's may leave their hind legs behind.


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