# Dangers of riding a strange horse.....!



## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

I have only been in this forum for a couple of weeks, and in this time I have read quite a lot of posts about folks having trouble with new arrival horses...

Why o why are so many of you folks eager to climb on this strange horse as soon as you can...?

Many many horses are sold because of one reason........ said horse has caused grief to a previous owner.....

Ask yourself.... how many horses are sold by an owner who is bombproof and a dream to ride in traffic,,, unphased with a brass band marching by etc etc...

Answer.... not MANY... these owners hang onto these horses,

Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...

Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse..

If you are unsure what this entails, google horse groundwork training,,

You must gain manners and your horse able to accept your commands from the ground before climbing on...

If the horse has no respect for you on the ground, guess what may well happen if you climb on and kick it in the ribs...

Trust me.. I have ...over my life time ...fully tested the "human unaided flight" theory and it always ends the same....... dumped on the ground..!

Personally, I take on troubled horses, and wont actually ride some of them for almost a year.

I take them thru a quiet retraining program and give them time to adjust to a new home..We use other bombproof horses to help retrain new horses..

I wont climb on a strange horse before I have full voice command from the ground or off another horse beside this one and until this horse has accepted me as its leader, .. the horse will decide this.... if and when...!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

If it's a horse I am looking to buy or a hrose someone is lending me, I want to see them ride it first unless I knew it before my time to ride it.

If it was a horse in training it would depend on the situation. Is the horse there for tune ups? Has it been causing problems before? WHY is it there to train?

I would be a little irritated if every friend I let ride my horses insisted on doing a bunch of groundwork first. Just get on the darned horse already!

If it was a horse I was bringing home for the first time I would ride it the first day. Why not? I will be expecting to haul this horse to about three new places a week and I won't have time to give them "settle down" time before I get on. Not always a place to do groundwork either.

As far as groundwork = respect under saddle, I disagree. Groundwork helps, that I will NEVER deny, but my older gelding is a dipstick on the ground but under saddle he is the best horse you could ever ask for. While our other gelding is a star student on the ground but awful under saddle. There are other factors that play into saddle work and behavior than just respect. i.e, learned habits, pain, environment, etc. Respect helps all these things but will not eliminate them.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> If it's a horse I am looking to buy or a hrose someone is lending me, I want to see them ride it first unless I knew it before my time to ride it.
> 
> If it was a horse in training it would depend on the situation. Is the horse there for tune ups? Has it been causing problems before? WHY is it there to train?
> 
> ...


I would be interested in you hoping on either one of the two most recent rescue horse we have without any ground work...

One in particular.... the previous owner just bought it three weeks earlier, and guess where he is still now......?

In hospital after this new horse bolted... he tried to turn it causing it to start rodeo bucking while galloping back to its paddock next to our place.. 

Please....be my guest...............Come ride it now!


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I won Grand champion on a horse I'd never sen in my life. 

I used to work for a broker. I didn't have time to sit around and do ground work, most of the time, the horse was right out of the trailer.

By the way, I had a mare that would buck at the canter, the years of ground work never fixed it.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm sorry please bold where I said anything about rescue horses. If oyu look back on what I said about training horses (Which would be on the same level of rescue horses to me) I stated I would evaluate the situation. I stated right in my post that I will never deny groundwork helps and is a tool for under saddle. All of my horses and horses that I am working with for other people get groundwork. With the exception of my older gelding but he's more of a "I need this horse to drag around this two year old for a few minutes" type horse. If he was doing more work, yes I would tune him up more, but he is not.

How I would assess the situation with a rescue horse is I would take them in the roundpen first. Then the lunge line yielding and changing direction. Yielding hindquarters/forequarters, sidepassing down the fence, sending on flat and on obstacles saddled and unsaddled, I would flex the horse, expect backing up, directionally as well. Usually around cones. All horses that come to me learn to do those things as well as a few other things.

Then, when it came time to ride them they get treated like unstarted colts. I'll lay on them bareback quite a bit in this groundwork phase so when I get on in the saddle no problem. Usually they will get ponied behind a horse like my older gelding who has been-there-done-that. Then we will take the older horse away and go around on our own.

I also fail to see where you got the whole "every horse sold is a problem horse except for on rare occasions."

Go on craigslist...Barrelhorseworld...reinersworld...dreamhorse...You will see a LOT more good horses people can't afford than bad horses people are trying to get rid of. You'll see a lot more "bad" horses being sent to slaughter or euth'd because no one will take them over the good horses! 

So, yes, if I buy a horse I'm going to bring it home and get on it with no groundwork. just like I would when I rode it at the owner's house. If I did buy a fix-er up-er, I would treat it like a colt who knew nothing. Not every horse requires a ton of groundwork before you get your butt in the saddle.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

myhorsesonador said:


> I won Grand champion on a horse I'd never sen in my life.
> 
> I used to work for a broker. I didn't have time to sit around and do ground work, most of the time, the horse was right out of the trailer.
> 
> *By the way, I had a mare that would buck at the canter, the years of ground work never fixed it*.


This.

My mare now that I love to pieces and is the most wonderful horse in the world is a wonderful groundwork student.

A year ago though, first time you asked her to lope she would explode. She didn't need groundwork. She was a spoiled brat who needed her *** smacked a few times with my crop because she learned that her rider would stop whenever she bucked. 

So, being the one who is good at this type of thing, got on and did just that.

A year from then she is the model horse. Packs kids around. Extreme trail challenge obstacles. Drug my three year old into the creek the other day. Ropes, moves cows, runs barrels, does dressage, etc. Just a wonderful, wonderful horse. And all because she finally got put in her place _under saddle._


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I regularly ride horses that i've never sat on before.

Actually quite a lot of horses for sale are good honest horses who are stars under saddle and are only for sale due to a change in the owners circumstances that means they can no longer afford to keep the horse.

i took stan to a show 3 days after he arrived on my yard, I had sat on him once (when i went to try him) and took champion at a show.

I rode a horse at a show where I had 5 mins to learn him before i took him into a championship (and won!)

I too would be offended if everyone who came to try my horse did ground work with him. It has its place with difficult and dangerous horses but the vast majority of horses need very little if any.

Jeff my new horse I sat on when i went to try him without having seen him ridden previously. I worked him in the school, took him for a hack and popped him over a couple of XC jumps all within 20 mins of sitting on him for the first time.
When he came up here he had 1 day to settle in as i was working late tht evening and then I have ridden him every evening since.

Not ever horse for sale is for sale because it is bad to ride, maybe in your price range they are but 90% of the horses actualy for sale are not!


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree with the others. Ground work has its place but it does not always mean that a horse who has 20 mins of ground work done before riding will behave any better. Some horses are amazing with groundwork but still act like cows under saddle that could be due to being green, pain or just being confused. 
My current lease mare is green in that she has all the training just needs the miles. I hopped on her the first day i actually went to see her with just 5 min little lunge to let her get her funnies out. Hadnt been ridden in 3 weeks as a green 6 yr old she did amazing and was fully in control the entire time. 
I havw hopped on countless other horses without seeing them ridden first and I havw seen tons of quality good trained horses being sold simply because times are hard and money gets tight mot because the horse is bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

as a breaker and one who people send spoiled horses too i will confidently say that a few moments of leading around and checking out how an unfamiliar horse responds to a person flapping the stirrups around, slapping the saddle and getting the right response from rein pressure while standing beside the horse has prevented more problems than its caused, and usually takes less than 5 minutes.

there's a happy and safe medium between spending your life doing groundwork and diving straight into the saddle expecting it to all go well.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

To clarify, Personally we take in horses that have caused previous folks grief,... I also restart OTTB type horses...

My good riding friend Rob bought the above mentioned horse from an auction.... the previous owner said it hadnt been ridden for a while...(I dont know how long a while was)

Rob said it looked a nice calm horse before he bought it..

He got it to his place and the first ride a couple days after it was ok.. no issue.. he didnt do much at all ground work, but the second ride he was on it about 15 mins when a truck went past and the horse just bolted,, He said he tried to pull its head around to break the bolt, but it started a rodeo bucking frenzie at a gallop back towards the paddock.

Rob is a good rider who can stick in the saddle well, but not many can out ride this situation.

Rob is still in hospital and has given said horse to me. he doesnt want it..

This is the type of horse that I personally treat as unknown even before this incident.
I am not talking about horses that you know, ride, and trust..

I read on here people buying for example horses off the track and wanting with little experience to get on these horses as soon as they get them home...

One post from a retrainer of OTTB horses is constantly amazed at inexperienced people rolling up to buy these and getting seriously hurt...


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> I agree with the others. Ground work has its place but it does not always mean that a horse who has 20 mins of ground work done before riding will behave any better. Some horses are amazing with groundwork but still act like cows under saddle that could be due to being green, pain or just being confused.
> My current lease mare is green in that she has all the training just needs the miles. I hopped on her the first day i actually went to see her with just 5 min little lunge to let her get her funnies out. Hadnt been ridden in 3 weeks as a green 6 yr old she did amazing and was fully in control the entire time.
> I havw hopped on countless other horses without seeing them ridden first and I havw seen tons of quality good trained horses being sold simply because times are hard and money gets tight mot because the horse is bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I extend my invitation to you as well to come saddle up this horse and take it out for a ride up the road as Rob did... I have no problem letting you do this...


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

And that right there is how lawsuits happen. If you KNOW your horse is dangerous amd you allow someone to get on it is your fault not the riders as just because you do some ground work does NOT mean the horse will behave under saddle and be a little angel. My gelding could do groundwork with his eyes closed but would run you into a fence the first chance he got.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Well said BRA,
Jeff gets incredibly frustrated with any form of ground work and is a total pillock whilst we try, but he is an angel under saddle, so much so that he is aimed at a para rider.

canterburyhorse - you made no distinction in your first post about difficult or dangerous horses, infact you made a point of saying "Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger".
That is blatently untrue. 90% of horses for sale are not unwanted, unridden or a danger. Generaly they are for sale because the owner can no longer afford it, the owner enjoys training horses and this horse is as far as the owner can take it, the owners kid has out grown it, the owner wants to compete at a higher level than the horse is capable of, the owner is going through divorce and thus must sell, etc. Infact there are a million and one reasons why people sell horses and the majority are not the horses fault.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

You get what you pay for! 

Horses go to auction for a reason! You better be **** good at picking one out, not have any gripes about returning it or have a dump truck full of money to care for Bronco for the rest of its life. 

The other key piece missing is common sense! If I have a horse straight from auction I wait a few weeks, lunge and start slow. Pony, pony, pony and start desensitizing them to thinks. If anyone thinks they are getting a bombproof, quiet trustworthy, babysitter for the rock bottom price of $400 maybe getting bucked off will actually knock some sense into you. 

On the other hang my friend is buying a mare from my trainer. She is pricey, about $5,000 and worth about $7,000. But we know EXACTLY what we are getting. She will ride the same on day 1, on trail or at the show. I wouldn't think twice about getting on her. I already know she is going to be 10x better then the auction horse rescue I'm working with now for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

The instructor/trainer who backed Alli and occasionally gives me lessons also reschools horses needing tune ups and takes on the odd horse who has been labled as 'problem' but really just needs time.

With Alli she spent lots of time doing ground work because it was all lunging, manners, longreining etc as she was being backed.

With a horse she is reschooling/tuning up she will give it a day or two to settle in, lunge to asses on the 2nd/3rd morning and hop on that afternoon. She isn't being paid to do ground work, shes being paid to reschool/tune up the horse _under saddle_. Groundwork helps the initial human boss- horse submissive stage but she doesn't do it extensively.

For 'problem' horses she does a heck of a lot more groundwork before even attempting to get on because the horse has to feel sequre in her hands, trust her, allow her to move all their feet, be supple and responsive in hand, be calm and trusting whilst claire is handling it. It could take months and months of groundwork before she feels happy the horse is confident enough to try out a bridle and saddle.

What I'm saying is you have to be flexible and treat each horse individually. 
No point in doing 2 weeks of ground work with a dead broke 25yr old kids pony who is only required to be lead around an arena, and there is no point in skipping ground work and jumping straight on a 'problem' horse as you will probably end up dead.

Horses being sold aren't all nut cases. At a view to buyI would be getting the owner to catch, groom, tack up, (meby lunge), ride, untack and turn out into its box/enclosed area for me to go through the process again. You should be able to get a pretty good idea what the horse is like doing this. I wouldn't dream of buying a horse I hadn't ridden on trial, unless of course it was an unbroke horse, or one I knew needed work.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Answer me please..... if most of the horses that are for sale as you folks say.... are well ridden and a great buy.... sold only as a result of cant afford to keep them or outgrown them etc... why is this forum FULL of stories of folks having trouble riding these horses and many many sending these darlings off to a trainer...?

My first thoughts are... horses just you above people boost..... have not been broken in properly... they to my personal mind have not had sufficient ground work as a part of the starting under saddle process..

I may have an old style of starting horses off slowly and over the course of a year take a horse that is a handful to a horse that is suitable for anyone to ride safely..

It is a free world we live in.... Personally I do ground work on any horse that is unknown to me before I climb on so I know I have some .....control measures...

I stand by what I have posted....If you dont know what a horse is like, aire on the side of caution, do some groundwork to see if this horse is willing to respond to your cues before hoping on it..

This is my personal experienced view only...it might just save another trip to hospital..! (smilies)


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

SlideStop said:


> You get what you pay for!
> 
> Horses go to auction for a reason! You better be **** good at picking one out, not have any gripes about returning it or have a dump truck full of money to care for Bronco for the rest of its life.
> 
> ...


I agree entirely... I have the bones broken from a younger life with unruley horses.. these days I like to know what is under me before climbing on..


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Answer me please..... if most of the horses that are for sale as you folks say.... are well ridden and a great buy.... sold only as a result of cant afford to keep them or outgrown them etc... why is this forum FULL of stories of folks having trouble riding these horses and many many sending these darlings off to a trainer...?


because people don't ask for help if they don't need it.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Exactly, people tend to go on forums for advice and suggestions.

You don't see many post on "I dont need advice because my horse is beautifuly behaved but please tell me what i should be doing".

I've had horses for over 20 years, i've bought many many horses for others, I have a reputation for sourcing good horses for Para riders and for schooling horses for Para riders (thats disabled riders for those that don't know).

In my last search for the perfect Para horse i probably sat on over 90 different horses, only one of them was "scarey" to ride, the rest were not suitable for a variety or reasons, sometimes as little as the fact that the horse was to quick off the leg for my clients disability (but it was very fun for me to ride not often do I get to ride advanced dressage school masters!), sometimes it was just that the horses trot was too big for my client.

You get what you pay for, I've never gone horse hunting with a budget of less than £2500, I have bought horses for less than that but I had at least £2500 to spend should I need it.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> This.
> 
> My mare now that I love to pieces and is the most wonderful horse in the world is a wonderful groundwork student.
> 
> ...


Thank you..(smilies)..

Nice to read that you have a great horse that does what you wish... Are all riders able to control and ride thru a bucking of rearing session such as what you have described..?

People have come to me to help them work thru issues... as you described.. horses learn naughty tricks some buck, some bolt... I wont hop on anyones horse until I know a horse has brakes.... and a steering wheel as a minimum.. Personally I start most..... horses off with ground work, then the more unruly horses, I use one of my experienced horses and lead the new horse off this so it learns some basic commands of stop. go, turn....
I can gain some insight as to where this horse is at... before climbing on...

I am not talking about the average riding horse that is just a bit naughty..

You really need to come take a look at some of the ones that we get to reschool to see what I mean..

I am proud of the horses we have restarted...and have a fairly safe way of doing it....


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

faye said:


> Exactly, people tend to go on forums for advice and suggestions.
> 
> You don't see many post on "I dont need advice because my horse is beautifuly behaved but please tell me what i should be doing".
> 
> ...


Am I right in what you are saying is....... folks dont worry, even though you dont know much about this new horse you have just bought... just saddle it up, and lets go trail riding or roadside riding up the road... dont worry even though you are still only a novice... she will be right jack...?
We have'nt got time to do this silly old fashioned ground work first thing... just do it..

Well folks..... Good luck..(smilies)


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

QUOTE
_why is this forum FULL of stories of folks having trouble riding these horses and many many sending these darlings off to a trainer_
_UNQUOTE_

GOOD QUESTION -one no doubt worthy of many anwers.

The Horseforum.com is an international medium for horse riders to communicate with eachother - sight unseen. It brings English speaking people from around the world together. The constant topic of conversation is the horse and bits and pieces of general advice fly across the ether.

The problem is that some folks perceive it to be more than that - they take it to be some form of 21st century university - a source of quick answers to all the problems raised by a horse. The HF will always fail in that respect.

Monty Roberts has a declared policy that he will not give advice over the Internet - not because he wants to charge for his words of wisdom but more because he feels that giving anything but very general advice is inappropriate if he has not met with either the owner or the horse and preferably both human and equine together. Probably he is right to take that approach.

On the other hand there are thousands of wannbe owners and riders who venture out and buy a horse because it has always been the dream to be a horse rider. There is an ancient expression: *"Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread".* Such people need some advice even if it is only: "*sell the horse, if you can, ASAP,"*

I have been troubled on many occasions about responding to a plea for help from someone - mostly a young woman- who obviously is in trouble with her horse. She appears to be, from the limited information provided by her, completely out of her depth. So far I can't remember having said :"* sell the horse", *usually I draw back and make no reply at all. 

_*If any of you can think of a better way to deal with this type of situation then please make some suggestions. *_

One thing I never do is to say that the novice has no right to buy a horse. I was once a novice myself. I have made a suggesiond before that in the UK one should have to apply for a provisional licence to own a horse - but for sure such an invasion of personal rights might be seen to be unacceptable. I have the feeling that sometime in the future such a licence will be necessary in Northern Europe but hopefully I will not see such a law in my lifetime.

I do not trust most people to handle my Rottweiler, let alone my horse - until I can see they are competent to do so. By adopting this policy I feel I honour my responsibility to keep safe my dog, my horse and the other human involved.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

What I am saying is that if you buy a good horse that is within your capabilities then there is no reason what so ever that you should have to do ground work.
e.g. if you are a novice and buy an aged, very placid school master then there is no problem at all with doing no ground work.
I had stan for 10 years and at no point did he ever to any ground work, yes he was an interesting quirky ride for me, but he was well within my capabilities, no i would not have let a novice ride him because he would have killed a novice, no amount of ground work would have fixed stans quirks, infact it probably would have backfired and the handler would have gotten badly hurt

I source good reliable horses for some pretty disabled riders, I have NEVER done any ground work before trying a horse, yes often I will see it ridden by someone else first.
Yes most of the time the riders I source horses for do get on and just get on with the job. I once bought a horse for a lady who took the horse to the national championships less than a week after I dropped the horse off with her.

I ride competition horses, I source competition horses, if it wont settle in a new environment within a couple of hours and preform to its best then it is no bnlinking good to me.

I do ground work with Reeco as he will likely kill me if i dont, however he is a problem horse. It never crossed my mind to do it with jeff as it simply isnt nessecary. Jeff played up under saddle yesterday as he wouldnt stand still when the other horses left him, One smacked botty later and he stood like an angel, no ground work required!


I don't believe in piddling around doing ground work with horses who just dont need it. 
Not everyone has the time to do it either. 

My trainer does a lot of ground work but even she never spends more than 6 weeks and that was the rankest horse she has ever come accross (rearing, bolting lunatic who had already put 4 very good riders in hospital)


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

At the end of the day.... I have experienced most things that a horse can throw....

My post here was, and is still intended ONLY... *to help keep folks safe...!*

If people want to disregard a safe way of looking before one leaps then they cant say they didnt know...... as they lie in an ambulance on its way to you know where>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I too have experianced everything a horse can throw at me, including rotational falls, bolting horses, bucking horses, horses rearing over on me, bucking bronking bolting horses, horses out to kill me on the floor.

Thing is ground work is not a good way of looking before you leap. If I did with Reeco then any novice would think they could ride him as he does ground work foot perfect and very sweetly and willingly even for tiny children

If I relied on ground work as an indicator of what I would get undersaddle then I would have never sat on Jeff as he can be a bargey pillock on the ground, but is generaly an angel under saddle (as much as any 4 yrold horse can be)

Heck if I relied on ground work I would never have bought Pride who was the best pony I ever bought. He is now 29 yrs old I've owned him for 15 years, we vbought him from a market, he would attack you on the ground, I have many many scars from where he has taken chunks out of me, he gave mum internal bleeding by kicking her in the stomach once. I've vaulted his stable door on more than one occasion to get away from his teeth and flying feet. 
However get him tacked up and I would trust him with a toddler on his back. He is the sweetest safest horse I have ever ridden.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

faye said:


> What I am saying is that if you buy a good horse that is within your capabilities then there is no reason what so ever that you should have to do ground work.
> e.g. if you are a novice and buy an aged, very placid school master then there is no problem at all with doing no ground work.
> I had stan for 10 years and at no point did he ever to any ground work, yes he was an interesting quirky ride for me, but he was well within my capabilities, no i would not have let a novice ride him because he would have killed a novice, no amount of ground work would have fixed stans quirks, infact it probably would have backfired and the handler would have gotten badly hurt
> 
> ...


 (smilies)... thank you for your submissions

I will feed the new rockets some hay in awaiting your arrival to show me your way to hop staight on either one of the two new arrivals..!

Second.. where have I said that I spend a year doing ground work..?

I do take sometimes a year to slowly reschool some....... horses, but in that year, yes I initially will do ground work , then the more unruly horses I will purposely lead off one of my experienced horse for quite a few trail rides, this is good for two reasons, the new horse gains cues off the other, and at the same time starts to learn quiet voice commands from myself.

I lead this horse out many times until it starts to settle, then will take it on one of our week long treks into the mountains with no saddle just leading it everyday..
The more unruly ones will then have a pack saddle put on them and packed for several treks.

These horses start to feel finally as if someone owns them, they learn trust and confidence..

I then saddle and ride them out again still with the experienced horse now being led,,,

And you know what.... After a year..... often guess what we have....???


Often a bombproof and school master horse..... yes.... so was this slow way worth it.....?

In my website, there is a pic of a horse I am riding right alongside a maintrunk railway line.. in this pic you will see that if a train came along we had nowhere for the horse and us to get off the trail,, if the train came along we were stuck there... you know... I trust that horse in this situation, he trusts me when I tell him.. its ok... and you know what....

A year earlier guess what that horse was.... yes a total unruly dangerous riding horse.... would you bring your horse along beside my horse if the train came along and feel comfortable....? 

I challenge you to do just this..!

Then we might go for a ride up our fowler pass.. again there are pics on my website of this horse doing just that.. Picture this.... a steep uphill with a mountainside up one side.. the track you will be riding on is only ONE FOOT WIDE...and look over the side.. no guard rail..... away down there........ the stream dropping off..... would you ride your horse following me on mine..???? I bet you would s.....t yourself..! (smilies)


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

No probelm, I took one of my ponies to a show and showjumped him in a ring next to one of the busiest high speed railway lines in the UK (train every 6 mins, london to holyhead line).

Jeff is quite happy when confronted with a combined harvester comeing at him out on a hack the first time I rode him after he arrived. 

Reeco is fine with combine harvesters, bird scarers, guns and funfairs, never had a reason to take him near a train, however I wouldnt worry about it if i did 

Stan had a helicopter land in the same field that I was riding in.
Pride had a hot airballoon come down in the show ring as we were doing our show.

We live in a low fly zone between 3 RAF bases, Jet fighters skimming the tree tops and rattling our windows is fairly normal

Yes I would S**t myself on that mpountain track but it would be because I am scared of heights not because I dont trust the horse. I'd take pride up it no problems, Harvey as well, I'd even take stan or Rian up it, If Jeff would fit i'd take him, however he is so wide i'm not sure he would fit! 
I wouldnt take Reeco up it however I dont concider Reeco to be schooled well enough yet and he is far from the finnished product, he is so sensitive that he would pick up on my nerves and my worry (about the height) and then he would be looking for dragons (that are obviously there because mummy thinks they are)

*I've got no problem doing ground work with difficult, dangerous or untrained horses. *
*however what I do have a problem with is people saying you must do ground work with every horse when it is unnessecary with most or saying that every horse that is for sale it is because the horse is bad, dangerous or untrained, when exactly the opposite is true.*

*Also you can do a heck of a lot of damage to a horses schooling and even Create a problem horse if you get the ground work wrong. So if your horse is too much for you undersaddle it is likely to be too much on the ground as well.*


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

faye said:


> Heck if I relied on ground work I would never have bought Pride who was the best pony I ever bought. He is now 29 yrs old I've owned him for 15 years, we vbought him from a market, he would attack you on the ground, I have many many scars from where he has taken chunks out of me, he gave mum internal bleeding by kicking her in the stomach once. I've vaulted his stable door on more than one occasion to get away from his teeth and flying feet.
> However get him tacked up and I would trust him with a toddler on his back. He is the sweetest safest horse I have ever ridden.


I'm sorry but I'm having some fantastically brilliant mental images of cartoon people leaping over stall doors :lol:

My two cents - Different horses for different courses. I used to ride with a woman who was mad about ground work.... 45 min before every ride and she was doing ground work.. her horse was no better behaved than mine.. infact her horse was a pushy tart of a thing and incredibly difficult to ride. I do very little groundwork with Bandit - infact it's non existant and he puts himself in and out of the paddock and into his box... Simba on the other hand is lunged before every ride as my little one is riding him on the lunge and I want him listening and responding to me before she hops up. 

Also the comment about getting what you pay for - this is very much a blanket statement that I can't really agree with. I bought Bandit in a package deal with a mare and a yearling... all three plus the kiddies pony set me back less than 1k. Bandit is worth far more, but he's got quirks. He's the love of my life, has never made me feel uneasy in the saddle and is entirely reliable. He's a proper babysitter that has been good to myself, my nonhorsey husband and my daughter. He is worth his weight in gold and any rider would be blessed to have him.He may not be a 10k show jumper or eventer... but if I wanted a horse of that standard I'd expect to pay that.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Maple, it was comical after the fact! mum cracked up laugghing after she had thourghly checked me over.

It did teach me never ever to work in a stable with a horse with the door locked. I now only ever skip out round a horse if I have the door only pushed too or have a bar accross the front instead of a door. Even the safest of horses can have a "moment" and you may need to exit quick. 
Stan was normaly an angel in his stable, I have photos of me lieing on him with him lieing down in his stable, you could leave the door wide open and he would stay in his stable, however my brother once got on the worng side of stans temper (which up to that point we had never seen before but he had been on 6 months of box rest) and narrowly avoided getting himself kicked, thankfully he had taken to leaving a door unlocked after seeing me vaulting it to get away from Pride and managed to get out quick.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Haven't read all the replies yet, but...

I sold an Arabian mare in Dec 2010. Purebred. Very sweet. My then 12 year old daughter learned to ride on her. I did a lot of my first riding on her. But she hated my gelding, and he hated her. Don't know why, but they had to be separated at all times. I wanted to keep her & sell the gelding, but the rest of the family outvoted me. So I sold her for $600 to a couple recommended by a trainer we knew as outstanding owners. They ride her daily & adore her. With good reason. I still miss her.

I was given a mustang pony last December. Didn't want him because I knew, in spite of my family saying otherwise, that he wouldn't be ridden very often - and he isn't. His owner bought him (a 13 hand, 650 lb-ish pony!) for her 200 lb husband and did trail riding - until they realized her husband was allergic to horses & rapidly getting worse. Within a month, he couldn't even visit the stable without tears rolling down his cheeks and sneezing himself senseless. The wife wanted to have more kids & didn't think she would have the time to ride, so both their horses were for sale. Except the pony was both small enough and energetic enough that there was no market - most pony riders want a pony for little kids, and Cowboy will cheerfully gallop and gallop and gallop...

So we got him, and he is not perfect. He dislikes arenas...gets very nervous there. But on the trail, he understands what is expected. He's a much safer trail ride than my mare is!

OK, not a big sample size. Neither horse was sold at auction.

But life changes, and people change, and families change. Lots of horses are for sale around here because feed had become very expensive & trailering costs have gone thru the roof and a lot of folks have lost their jobs. At a guess, half of the homes within 1/2 mile of me have gone thru foreclosure in the last 5 years. How many of us have heard of girls who LOVED horses...for a year or two - and then didn't?

I understand that many horses have issues. Believe me - the mare sold to me as perfect for a beginner was anything but! I eventually hired a trainer who concluded she had never been broke to ride...although the good news was that meant she was an uncommonly nice & willing horse, not an uncommonly spooky and erratic one. The gelding we kept was a fine horse on the ranch owned by an old friend, but we didn't have room for him right away and he was loaned to a ranch in Colorado for a few months...where they spurred him bloody. That experience was bad enough that we eventually went 8 months without riding him & then had him trained by a pro for 5 weeks. I understand horses are not ATVs or motorcycles.

But neither are most of them dangerous, out of control monsters waiting to kill an unsuspecting rider. Those DO exist. The lady who trained Trooper had a bunch of ribs broken by a horse that 'just needed a tune-up' - but that slammed her and himself into a fence a minute after mounting. Turned out he was a severe bucker & rearer who had terrified his owners...who lied about his need for training. I believe he went to auction a short time later after the local trainers refused to deal with him.

They do exist. And I do believe a lot of horses do best if they are given a few weeks to settle in to a new place before a lot is demanded of them. At least at my price range (the sub-$1000 one), most horses are not well-trained horses ready to compete in shows. But in that price range, where I live, there are a lot of decent-hearted horses needing a new home because the owner no longer wants to own horses. Speaking as someone who was just a few years ago a first time horse buyer who knew NOTHING about horses...most of the horses here are more honest and caring than their owners! :-x

Adding a note after reading a post from faye...the biggest problem my little mustang has is that they allowed students to do ground work with him...and an incompetent ground worker can ruin an otherwise good horse! When Mia needed training, I did some very basic ground work with her and then turned her over to a pro who spent 2 months doing daily ground work before mounting. The following day, I got back on her and I've been riding her almost daily ever since. Ground work has value - GOOD groundwork. There are a lot of amateurs who think they can do ground work, tho, and all they really do is screw the horse up. If you can read a horse well enough to be good at ground work, you are probably also a darn good rider!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Answer me please..... if most of the horses that are for sale as you folks say.... are well ridden and a great buy.... sold only as a result of cant afford to keep them or outgrown them etc... why is this forum FULL of stories of folks having trouble riding these horses and many many sending these darlings off to a trainer...?
> 
> My first thoughts are... horses just you above people boost..... have not been broken in properly... they to my personal mind have not had sufficient ground work as a part of the starting under saddle process..
> 
> ...


I haven't yet read past this post, so forgive me if I repeat something

I think most people do agree with you that ground work is helpful in getting to know a horse & the horse to know the handler. That said, unless your friend Robert was doing ground work by a road when a truck went by, how would he have known how the horse would react?

I think problems start when a less experienced person gets the perfect horse & all is fine until the horse does something the person does not know how to deal with, then things get worse from there.

I hope your friend makes a full & speedy recovery.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

I personally think that you might have used your post to better serve the green riders out there not the experienced horseman. 

The situation that happened to your friend can happen with any horse, sometimes things just come together for the perfect storm. It's the green riders who need this type of warning. I think you have to put a lot of miles on yourself with many different type of horses. This does require a certain amount of bravery and risk taking. It's us green riders who need this type of advice. I have the resources to take care of a horse I can ride a horse but don't have the experience to really size up a horse and have to rely on others to help me make a decision then I have to eventually ride said horse and may not be able to size up if the time to finally get on has arrived.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

This is an internet forum. By its very nature, it will attract a rather large subset of the general horse riding population who have training/behaviour issues with their horses and will be surfing the web, looking for answers. In another forum I hang around (not horsey), it is often said that the forum is a good resource for the under-resourced. In other words, if you are good a trainer yourself or you have one, you're not likely to be seeking answers to your training questions on the internet, are you? And to make a completely tautological point, the people who post about problems will be the ones who have problems. 

As someone earlier in this thread, most people aren't going to post, "I just did a half-pass today." Because, really, who cares?

Yes, I am aware that experienced horsepeople use fora but they're not posting training questions and needless to say, there is nothing quite so efficacious as the internet for skiving off work and wasting lots of time. ;-)


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok so I didn't read all of the replies since it was mostly just arguing the same point, but I skimmed most of them. So here's my input (really take it lightly if you please, I may be a bit crazy ha).

Last week a small group of us go for a ride. One of the horses we brought was another boarder's horse, she rarely rides. Now during our ride, we were just at the arenas, he was bucking or kicking out and very very rough. His rider wasn't sure if he was just kicking out when he went into a canter or if he was actually bucking. So another rider got on him, same thing. I was focusing on my horse as we are still training so I didn't see what he was doing. Well she still couldn't tell if he was being a PITA or if he had pain somewhere. He didn't buck or kick everytime.

So naturally I volunteer to get on and see whats going on. I've riden out everything a horse can do and oftentimes bailed off by choice or survival instinct. Well no longer than 30 seconds into our ride as soon as I ask for a canter he goes into full out bronc mode. I still have the lovely bruises to prove he really does buck and exactly why I hate western saddles.

But with the above story groundwork would not have shown anything. He behaves on the ground. We have concluded this horse has a back issue or something going on and we will not ride him anymore. But ground work is not the cure all. Sometimes a "problem" horse doesn't need groundwork but a vet.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Ask yourself.... how many horses are sold by an owner who is bombproof and a dream to ride in traffic,,, unphased with a brass band marching by etc etc...
> 
> Answer.... not MANY... these owners hang onto these horses,


Actually... in today's horse market... A LOT!



canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Am I right in what you are saying is....... folks dont worry, even though you dont know much about this new horse you have just bought... just saddle it up, and lets go trail riding or roadside riding up the road... dont worry even though you are still only a novice... she will be right jack...?


My therapist calls this "all or nothing thinking." Or "black and white thinking."

It's like you're saying you either buy a horse and don't get on him for months, or you buy a horse, slap on a saddle, and go romping merrily down the freeway. :lol:

What about buying a horse, doing a bit of ground work in your first session, deciding the horse is responding well, and then getting on _in a controlled setting_?

Not all of us are complete horse idiots.. some of us can judge a horse's personality well enough to determine whether more groundwork is warranted or whether we can get on and ride within the first few days.

Heck, I'm of the opinion that groundwork NEVER completely goes away but I still think there are situations where newly purchased horses can be ridden right away.

I'm not going to go get a fresh off the track thoroughbred, throw my Western saddle on him, and go ridin' the range.

But neither am I going to buy a well trained horse and leave him sit for months while I re-do groundwork he's already perfected. 

I'm going to take both horses, evaluate them, and then work with the level they're at. In the case of the OTTB, I'll do groundwork and spend a lot of time just letting him learn to be a horse and learn to trust me before ever swinging my leg over his back.

With the well trained horse, I'll take a bit of time determining whether or not he's indeed well trained (and I would have already ridden him during the process of purchasing him), ride him in a controlled setting a couple of times to determine what his capabilities are, and THEN go out on the trail.

What you posted HERE makes more sense:


canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> I stand by what I have posted....If you dont know what a horse is like, aire on the side of caution, do some groundwork to see if this horse is willing to respond to your cues before hoping on it..


But what you posted in the initial thread seemed to say that all horses up for sale are evil, spoiled creatures that will kill you if they get the chance, so you'd better not EVER plan on riding a horse you purchased right away.

Umm... no.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

Sold my last horse for one reason...bought it for my husband and he decided not to ride anymore after we had to have his old horse put down.


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## Mason72 (Jun 1, 2012)

get on Hang On and Enjoy the Ride....


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

The last one I sold was an unbacked greenie I acquired for the purpose of training and then selling on for more than I bought him as a useful, ridable equine citizen. The horse I sold before that was a lovely, kind mare who loved jumping and trail riding, but she didn't want to be a dressage horse (although she tolerated it) and I wanted to do more dressage.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I have only ever been involved in selling 2 horses. 
1 was a horse that wanted to jump when the owner wanted to do dressage (horse went on and has competed at young rider Europeans in 3DE).
the other was a lovely traditional coloured mare who would try and shift heaven and earth for you, she was bought to get a disabled rider back in the saddle, when the disabled rider thought she would only ever be able to hack out due to her disabilities, The rider then got into para Dressage and though the mare tried her heart out she was not physically able to do any more, getting her to collect put so much strain on her joints and she was very unhappy (although never did anything about it), the owner could only afford 1 horse so made the heart braking decision to sell her and get a horse that could do the level of dressage required. The mare went on to a lovely elderly lady and is hacking out 3 to 4 hrs a day and loving it!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Chandra,
It is very difficult to teach a green rider over the internet.
Humans come in various shapes & sizes
Horses come with different temperaments and histories.
What works for one pair of horse and rider might not work for another pair.

The professional handler/rider/trainer has one way of working and thinking - the amateur owner rider may well have completely different criteria as to how to handle any horse. 

If I described what I felt and saw when first I met with a strange horse it would take an hour to put my thoughts on paper and even then the novice might not 
understand what I written. Much of what I saw of the horse would go into the back of my brain and only be recalled when the information was relevant.

Not everyone believes in ground work. Personally I do but I work in an English environment where it is normal to sit on a postage sized saddle without a horn; where in due course it is expected that the rider's aids are barely to be seen;
in a small country where it is expected that the rider has almost full control of his mount at all times when in public.

A green rider - inexperienced maybe and not necessarily a novice- chooses to ride a strange horse at their peril. The only way to tackle the problem is to devize one's own procedure - a check list if you will - and then to be prepared to
dismount if the indications are not right.

When I was touring riding centres I would be presented with a fresh horse everytime I mounted. I'd always leave my riding hat and boots in the car - so that I could say I had forgotten them without causing offence to the owners. 

The final test for me before leaving the yard was always to mount up and then sit still on the horse for a few minutes.
Eventually I'd take up the reins in both hands,
I'd take up contact with the mouth thru the bit,
I'd flex the muscle in my under thigh and expect the horse to walk forwards.
Then I'd shorten the reins a fraction. I'd put a gentle tension into the reins and expect the horse to stop and stand.
I'd then ask for a turn to the right, then a turn to the left.
Then I'd ask for a backup.
And then I'd ask for another halt and stand.
I'd want to be confident that I had an accelerator, a brake, a steering wheel and a responsive horse.
There would be lots of gentle words exchanged by me with the horse and the occasional stroke would be offered. Throughout I'd have been watching the horse's ears and I'd have been feeling for the horse's adjustment to any adjustment of weight on my part.

Finally in my head there would be an exchange of views between my thinking brain in my head and my riding brain in my gut. If my riding brain felt happy, then off out we would go - if my thinking brain felt nervous then I'd make an excuse and dismount. The pit of my stomach was/is a very accurate barometer of a horse's temperament and suitability for me.

I can describe my system on a post but just how do I explain a feeling in the gut over the internet? 

What I never ever do is to enter a strange horse yard and brag that I can ride any horse likely to be presented to me. 

A couple of years ago, I drove for three hours to the West Coast to view a horse I had seen on the Internet. On arrival I asked for a cup of coffee from the owners. We chatted for half an hour or so and talked together about the horse and what I was seeking in a horse.
Then we went out into the yard and the owner brought out a steaming 16h+ beautiful Welsh cob which was foaming slightly at the mouth. He was beautiful to look at and could well make a superb hunter - so long as the rider was competent. I went close up to him and put my hand on the horse's neck and felt the power of him. I did not need to mount him to get a feel for the animal. He was far too much for me. I said 'thank you', I got back in the car and drove the 3 hours home.

There are no medals for bravery in horse riding. For most of us it is a sport to be enjoyed.


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## Mason72 (Jun 1, 2012)

one rein stop is the most important lesson any rider should have. it is the very first thing I taught my daughter when we started with the beginning of her lessons. i was never taught it until after many years and to this day it is the most important lesson i have ever learned.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

The problem with some novice riders/owners is that they don't know how much they don't know until theyre neck deep in it.

There are plenty of valid reasons for selling a horse that don't include the horse being dangerous. It's silly to think that. How would ANYONE buy a good mount if most of the ones for sale are dangerous?

I wouldn't consider myself a beginner but I'm no pro either. I don't have access to trainers or even well schooled riders to toss around ideas with - the riders where I board are strictly pleasure riders - so I come to the Internet. Sometimes my questions are noobish but it helps sometimes just to have my thoughts and conclusions set together in one spot. Having someone else chime in with something is grand too!

If there's a new horse that I'm asked to ride, I do groundwork first to get a feel for the horse but I don't let it blind me. I know several horses with atrocious ground manners but are lovely unde saddle and vice versa. Waiting a year before riding a horse just because it's new is absurd. Not everyone can afford to keep an expensive pasture pet for a year waiting for the day the horse runs to the gate whinnying, begging to go for a hack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Barry Godden said:


> The final test for me before leaving the yard was always to mount up and then sit still on the horse for a few minutes.
> Eventually I'd take up the reins in both hands,
> I'd take up contact with the mouth thru the bit,
> I'd flex the muscle in my under thigh and expect the horse to walk forwards.
> ...


I do this too. I have a system which I call my 'pre-ride'. If I'm catching, bringing in and tacking up my own horse the pre-ride starts as I'm walking out to the pasture. The horse tells me how he's going to be to ride by the way he is as I approach, catch, halter, lead out, tie up, groom, maintain his feet, saddle and bridle him. If I've paid attention to all of those things then I know how much groundwork/warming up I need to do before stepping on. My goal is to eventually forgo the groundwork and just step on, but that's after we've gotten to know each other!


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## HagonNag (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm old. I'm cautious. I'm beginning to think I should even be timid. I don't put anything past any horse after my horse that I had ridden for years sent me airborn for no discernable reason. No cause that we know of, no warning: Just, "I think I'll fling you today!" He did and I flew into a tree and almost died. I guess I'm lucky, because over the years, he could have chosen FAR worse places. 

Climb on a strange horse? I don't think so. I'll leave that to the young and the brave. I'd like to see someone else on the horse, I'd like to make his aquaintance...I'd like to feel comfortable around him and have him respond to some of my ground commands. Then, if he seems sane and I've heard and seen good things about him. THEN I'll climb on. Till then, I'll just pat him and say, "Nice horsie." I think that will improve my odds of getting even older.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> I would be interested in you hoping on either one of the two most recent rescue horse we have without any ground work...
> 
> One in particular.... the previous owner just bought it three weeks earlier, and guess where he is still now......?
> 
> ...


How exactly would groundwork prevent bolting?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> How exactly would groundwork prevent bolting?


In principle you can teach the basics of one-rein stop from the ground: give to the rein and all. 

I have to admit I'm not big about ground work. I did with my mares mostly because they were too young to be ridden when I got them, so ground work was pretty much all I could do (of course besides, brushing, spraying and bunch of other things related to horse care). When I started riding them I just got on. Sure, some horses may benefit from ground work, but ground work is not a 'cure-it-all', and some horses find it to be boring (both my mares prefer saddle work).


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Canterbury, Many of us here in the forum agree with ground work but that means we are willing to accept that it might take time to achieve the relationship with the horse that we are working with.

I have always believed that you can't teach a horse to do much that it does not know how to perform from instinct. The best the rider trainer can hope for is to teach the animal to understand when a specific move is asked for and to expect that the animal will perform the move immediately on request.That is after all what European English dressage is all about and a supreme example is the individual dressage tests in the Olympics.

What I do beleive is that a horse can be taught/dissuaded _NOT_ to do some things - such as bite or kick, rear or buck. However even so there is a dividing line when a horse for example deliberately bucks in order to discard its rider. Perhaps the most infuriating move a horse can deliberately make is the 'balk' that is when it simply refuses to move forwards. 

However if a horse 'runs away' through fear, perhaps at an unfamiliar sound or the grunt of a pig, then it is frightened and the cure must be to show the horse that there is nothing to fear. That training calls for the rider/trainer to be trusted and respected by the horse and in some horses, trusting humans doesnt come easy.

However a horse which strikes, whirls and bolts for no good reason, rears or continuously bucks or bolts is* lawless* and as such renders itself guilty of unacceptable behaviour towards the hobby rider. If you are unlucky enough to own such a horse then the question arises as to why the horse has turned this way. I personally do not accept that one can 'cure' a horse of such behaviour even with the whip, the harsher bit or leather restraints. The crafty animal will wait and bide its time. The horse obviously has a grudge against a particular rider and usually for some good reason. The sensible thing for the amateur to do especially in an economically depressed era is to get rid of the horse and to buy another which is not lawless. 

Fear in a horse is something which we may with time and patience reduce even erase. 

Aggression in a horse is a different problem altogether. A one rein stop, either the US version or the English version, might contain a bolting horse (at some risk to the rider) but it won't cure the problem of why did the horse bolt (as against runaway )in the first place.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Barry Godden said:


> Chandra,
> It is very difficult to teach a green rider over the internet.
> Humans come in various shapes & sizes
> Horses come with different temperaments and histories.
> ...


I think I didn't make my point well, what I was trying to say her post was recieving a lot of negative vibes from experienced horseman and the point was getting lost about the dangers of getting on a unknown horse. The experienced horsemen know, its the greenies who don't realise the dangers or think they know more then they do. ;-)


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

HagonNag said:


> I'm old. I'm cautious. I'm beginning to think I should even be timid. I don't put anything past any horse after my horse that I had ridden for years sent me airborn for no discernable reason. No cause that we know of, no warning: Just, "I think I'll fling you today!" He did and I flew into a tree and almost died. I guess I'm lucky, because over the years, he could have chosen FAR worse places.
> 
> Climb on a strange horse? I don't think so. I'll leave that to the young and the brave. I'd like to see someone else on the horse, I'd like to make his aquaintance...I'd like to feel comfortable around him and have him respond to some of my ground commands. Then, if he seems sane and I've heard and seen good things about him. THEN I'll climb on. Till then, I'll just pat him and say, "Nice horsie." I think that will improve my odds of getting even older.


 
;-) This is totally me, my friends get a new horse and they are always asking me do you wanna ride em, uh nah I will wait and see lol They always look at me with really but I like to get to know a horse. In the best situations something could go wrong, I want it to be something I couldn't have prevented not something I could have by not getting on lol but I consider myself a greenie even after riding for 3yrs, I don't ever see that cautious side of myself going away.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A one rein stop is a trained movement. It will not prevent a bolt, unless timed in such a way as to distract a nervous horse and get its attention back on the rider. It also will not stop a bolt, because a bolting horse is not listening to its training. A horse can gallop with its nose at your knee. I've been there and done that.

After the initial bolt, and while the horse is still upset, then circling can help the horse to slow and regain focus. And at some point, it will begin to respond to its training. That training may or may not have started on the ground.

There is ground training you can do that will help a horse learn to calm more quickly than it would otherwise. The trainer (and I under supervision) did that with my mare so that she would learn excitement doesn't mean you must run until exhausted.

There is some desensitizing that can be done from the ground, but that isn't the same as being desensitized to the same level when the person is in the saddle. There does come a point where you need to mount up.

When I approach a new horse, put a halter on it, lead it, clean its feet, etc, the horse is sizing me up and I'm sizing him up. By the time I have a saddle on and a bit in their mouth, we both usually have a good idea of our experience level, mutual respect and good will. Usually. Not always.

I don't think anyone is saying ground work is worthless or that all horses are angels. What many of us object to is this:

"Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...

Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse.."

Pretty much by definition, all horses for sale are no longer wanted by their owner, which is why they are for sale. That doesn't mean they are dangerous. If I have watched another person ride the horse and the horse behaves well, we've pretty much ruled out that the horse is in pain, or that it doesn't know basic cues. That doesn't mean they will do it for me. Most highly trained horses would find me annoying because I'm not highly trained. But again, most experienced riders (the trainer riding the horse before you) can pick up on that aspect.

Yes, there are people who buy a horse unsuited for them. I did and it has taken 4 years of work to change us into two beings suited for each other. Some will take it to extremes. There are people out there who want to buy an OTTB and toss little Suzie on his back because 'she loves horses and they understand her'. One guy I met told me of successfully talking a woman out of buying a green-broke 5 year old stallion for her little girl to ride. There are people like that, and most are hopeless. They also aren't typical. They tend to remove themselves from the gene pool rather quickly...


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## ChrisDCervantes (Aug 20, 2012)

There are many reasons as to why people are selling horses. You the purchaser before looking at horses, trying horses, should have questions lined up to ask the seller? Ask questions-lots. Why is the horse being sold? What has the horse done so far? What level was his rider at? Talk witht hat rider, it sounds like alot of people don't use trainers. Now I work for a top hunter/jumper barn on the west coast and couldn't imagine a client of purchasing horses they don't know anything about. part of the reason is you want to know the repuatation of the trainer who is selling the horse. 
After seeing a video of the horse, trying the horse as well as bringing him to the farm for a week trial is going to give you a better idea. If you are purchasing something under 5 years old than yes expect him to maybe be a bit more of a handful. He could be great but will need a little more work. Overall I suggest working with a professional trainer in your search for a horse. They will have more contacts as well as lead you to someone with a great rep.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Personally, I take on troubled horses, and wont actually ride some of them for almost a year.
> 
> ...!


 wow this would have to be so very Troubled horse.. I coulds see taking it slow but a Year? thats a bit much I wouldn't pay someone to Not ride my horse if they were training them.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Critter sitter said:


> wow this would have to be so very Troubled horse.. I coulds see taking it slow but a Year? thats a bit much I wouldn't pay someone to Not ride my horse if they were training them.


I'm guessing what's being referred to are rescue cases. The OP takes them in (as in adopts them/gives them a new home) and rehabilitates them.

I think it is absolutely reasonable to give a neglected/abused horse a year off before trying any serious training. I did the exact thing with one of the Arabs I took in. With the other one, it was over a year and he still wasn't ready (not physically sound). 

I have heard many recommend that OTTBs have at least a year to recover from the track before being re-trained, and I agree with them.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I have heard many recommend that OTTBs have at least a year to recover from the track before being re-trained, and I agree with them.


Mine had 2 months off. He was quite fine with being retrained without having to wait a year. 

Most ex-racing TBs sold or given away generally don't have the drive and temperament to be race horses, which makes them excellent candidates as regular under saddle companions.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow. I have ridden all of my horses on the trial and the first day they arrived at the barn. I certainly understand and appreciate the value of groundwork, but there's a point where you pull up your boot socks and get in the saddle. 
I've lunged Ronan twice only, to see his movement. He does get lunged once a week by a working student to allow me to have a day off - haha - but it is for exercise. I'm not one of those riders that lunges for 20 mins before hopping on. 
Now, having said that, ground work is absolutely the foundation for a horse new to training or needing retraining - that I do agree with - but there's a line and I'd rather be in the saddle. -Note that I will not forego groundwork as needed to get in the saddle faster!-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Groundwork or not... I think we all need to remember that riding is a risk sport. Everytime we sit on the back of a horse, we take a serious risk for our well being. 

A few years back, I took an awful fall off a TB mare. A person involved in one of the "forms" of NH had worked the mare already and done plenty of ground work. I simply lied across her back and she went plunging - this was a 7yo who had been broke as a 3yo. There was no reason for it. A few days later another person, within the same NH group told me that it happened because I didn't do things his way. I was told that if I had, it would never have happened. I was plenty annoyed with his statement but left him to it. I found out that 2 months later one of his horses, who was trained in this method, had thrown him and broke his leg. He was somebody who did hours upon hours of the rope shaking fluffin about. His horse has been trained in this way for a few years and was such and such star/grade/level/whatever, he had done more ground work with this one horse than I probably have with all horses combined in my whole life - yet he still ended up in hospital. 

When we take it upon ourselves to sit on the backs of 1000lb+ animals, with a mind of their own, it's a risk. It doesn't matter how low we spend on the ground, it is a risk. Any horse at any moment can decide that a horse eatting monster is about to feast on them, be it a 3yo greenie or a 25yo schoolmaster.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

All I can say is that if it takes you a year to gain a horse's respect and trust then you are doing something wrong.

One week - possibly two with a horse that is totally mentally messed up, and I will have its trust without a round pen or doing anything very much in the way of groundwork. 
General day to day handling of the horse will let it know whether you are a push over or a leader. I reckon it takes a horse all of 10 minutes maximum to decide.

99.9% of horses become problematic because more and more people are buying them when they have little or not much experience of either riding or handling them. Often the horses they have had connection with are well broke and quiet animals use to looking after people. These people have made up their mind as to what breed they want, the colour and size and only after these criteria are met do they even consider temperament. Rarely do they take their trainer with them to assess the suitability of the match.

I am old enough to have been taught at the outset, of how to ride. Concentration was on developing the riders seat and balance, teaching how to sit deep. Only once that had been determined were you taught the finer points.
I was always the gutsy kid who would get on anything - generally, thanks to having a strong sense of self preservation, good balance and knowing that if it was a problem horse or pony, I would get free rides until it was no longer this way. 
Did I fall off? Yes I did, on far more then one occasion. Was I hurt? Yes on more than one occasion, all that meant, unless your arm was dangling or you were knocked out cold, was that you caught the horse and got back on. 

In the UK if you buy a horse through the sale ring then you have 48 hours to return that horse if it is not as said in the sale catalogue. 

As for not riding a horse until you have had it at home for months, I think that is taking it all way to far.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Critter sitter said:


> wow this would have to be so very Troubled horse.. I coulds see taking it slow but a Year? thats a bit much I wouldn't pay someone to Not ride my horse if they were training them.


Smilies.. I dont take in other folks horses any more. My wife and I do take in rescue horses that are neglected or unwanted to save some from going to the dog meat man.

Some are reasonably easy to restart some take quite a bit longer..

I take as long as a horse needs to settle from it prior life and yes some do take upto a year to leave their past behind..

My aim in most cases to get every horse to a stage where they have been trained to be quite bombproof and school master style..

Thru there time with us, I quietly expose each one to anything and everything ( obviously only the things that wont hurt them ) and with time learn trust and inturn learn confidence..

It is very rewarding working with troubled horse to see the end results from where they started with us.. I love it..


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> All I can say is that if it takes you a year to gain a horse's respect and trust then you are doing something wrong.


I'm certainly not talking about your average case or even trying to say that a year was _required_. Instead, I simply believe some of the worst cases DESERVE a year off.

Part of that year is dealing with physical injuries/conditions. Before those are addressed, I think most of us would agree that saddle training is not a priority. Once the horse is sound, I like to give them a little down time to learn to be a horse again before getting to any real work. These are rescue cases taken in simply to save them from the lives they were living. If they can eventually be retrained to "do a job," that's just a bonus.

If I were to be claiming to be an actual "rescue," it might be different, because then I'd want to rehab/retrain a horse more quickly so as to have room for more. Both of the cases I took in, however, were just opportunities thrown my way and I took them in knowing that I would be their forever home, no matter what happened.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I actually just got my hands on a young, green broke horse. The breeder was selling it because he was bred to be sold. Took me all of 7 rides (the horse has never been out of a round pen, or had any contact at all) and he is going w/t/c into a good contact, starting turns on the forehand, probably starting a leg yield and a spiral sometime next week and he's going in his first horse show on the weekend. I let the horse have the first day at the property off (mind you he had been standing in a vet clinic for 4 hours that day) and then after that is was up into the saddle for me. I do lunge him as I think the side-reins help him to learn about contact and keep him in a better balance, but as soon as I'm happy with how he is developing schwung I will probably stop lunging him because I hate it.

It's not complete rocket science. As long as your tack fits, your horse is sound and has had a good backing, there is no sense not to climb onto them. My horse I would rather deal with in the saddle then on the ground.
I think a good, complete, pre purchase vet exam and a good fitting saddle would eliminate a lot of people's problems with new horses.

Rescues are a whole 'nother story. And for people who don't "know horses", yes they probably should have a coach or trainer clamber up on the horse for the first while.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Smiles.... Good morning from NZ...

A fine day for a change, winter is drawing to a close finally..

I have enjoyed this lively debate in this thread..

There are millions of folks who ride horses, there are a million different ways humans inflict their own stamp in the name of training on a horse..

Who is right, who is wrong.? it doesnt matter, your training dictates the perimeters you ask your horse to work within..

Some folks do things quickly some folks take their time.. again it doesnt matter..

At the end of the day, as long as you are happy that your horse is safe to ride and wont run you over on the ground or cause you to bolt over the stable door to save your skin, its all in a days fun with horses.

My aim is to achieve a safe and reliable mount, to me.... time is not the issue..

I love what I do and love working to achieve *a nice well rounded horse*..

Time to saddle up and go for a ride... enjoy your day folks...(smilies)

Cheers and thank you all...Tony


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

Sounds like pussyfootin to me . Sorry OP I have worked with Troubled horses and not troubled And I have Never seen a "sound " horse get a year off.. more power to you if you have the $$$$ to feed said horses.. Good luck to you.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Critter sitter said:


> Sounds like pussyfootin to me . Sorry OP I have worked with Troubled horses and not troubled And I have Never seen a "sound " horse get a year off.. more power to you if you have the $$$$ to feed said horses.. Good luck to you.


Does it cost any less to feed them if they're working?? Are you saying that they're worthless if they aren't "earning their keep?" What about old, retired horses? Should we just euthanize them because they are just getting fat off our hay/pastures and not doing anything for us in return?

I'm sure some feel this way, but to me horses are more than just something to ride. Since I haven't ridden in three years, if they were I certainly wouldn't be on a horse forum.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Good morning..

I have a number of ex race horses here that have rescued off the track to save some of them going to the dog meat man..

While they are turned out they dont cost anything to eat grass and it doesnt cost much to throw them a bale or two of hay in the mornings

I also have 5 other horses that are under saddle that between my wife and I try to ride most days so a lot of riding is done here..

I turn out all the race horses for about a year to let them relax and leave their past behind...

I have said many times in previous posts that I like to take my time in restarting our horses..... to us this works just fine thanks....

Please go ahead and train your horses as fast as you like...(smilies)

Have a great day...Tony..(smilies)


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Does it cost any less to feed them if they're working?? Are you saying that they're worthless if they aren't "earning their keep?" What about old, retired horses? Should we just euthanize them because they are just getting fat off our hay/pastures and not doing anything for us in return?
> 
> I'm sure some feel this way, but to me horses are more than just something to ride. Since I haven't ridden in three years, if they were I certainly wouldn't be on a horse forum.


I don't think the post was saying to shoot the old horses or anything like that. If a horse is being properly cared for, there are going to be expenses - blacksmith, worming, vaccs, dentist, whatever self inflicted pasture injury they decide to drain the bank balance with, ect. Take into account bad weather - you need hay and hard feed. If they decide they only need half their near hind leg? Add bedding onto that as well. 

A lot of people on here wouldn't have the means to keep a horse who isn't being used. I know i wouldnt! I'm restricted to what I have at the moment, I pay livery and don't have much of my own land. I'm choosing to ignore 10 years from now when Bandit is on his well earned pension cus I don't know whats going to happen. I can either choose to find him a retirement home or forget about riding - but he's a happy hacker, not competitive - my decision would be completely different from somebody who wants to compete. 

There is a significant different between a horse rider and a working yard. Not saying anybody is... but if you go out to ride and spend time with your own horse, that is great. If you are in a functioning yard, where you have to get tasks done and horses trained, 1 year is well OTT. 



canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> I have a number of ex race horses here that have rescued off the track to save some of them going to the dog meat man..
> 
> While they are turned out they dont cost anything to eat grass and it doesnt cost much to throw them a bale or two of hay in the mornings
> I turn out all the race horses for about a year to let them relax and leave their past behind...
> ...


Everybody on here are from different walks of life. I work in racing, I enjoy racing, I am also very aware that I'm in a minority on this forum. Of the 100+ TBs that are going to come my way this year... none of them will need to be rescued. The slow boats will be rehomed as riding horses. The good ones will be sold on to go jumps racing. The good fillies will find their way to the breeding shed in time. 

I know of TBs galloping in the morning, and doing dressage in the afternoon. I know of several who went from the racetrack to the arena in a few days. I've heard people say 6 weeks to chill, but this is obviously going to vary from horse to horse. I even knew of a horse who raced on the weekends and in a riding school during the week. 

The brilliant thing about a forum like this is that we get to have discussions with people about topics we feel passionate about. I would think that the majority of the people on here want whats best for horses and there are many different techniques that will be successful for different people. The general concept of needing to rescue these horses from the racecourse... I could be fairly certain if you saw the level of care that our horses receive, you could very well change your opinion.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Maple said:


> I don't think the post was saying to shoot the old horses or anything like that. If a horse is being properly cared for, there are going to be expenses - blacksmith, worming, vaccs, dentist, whatever self inflicted pasture injury they decide to drain the bank balance with, ect. Take into account bad weather - you need hay and hard feed. If they decide they only need half their near hind leg? Add bedding onto that as well.
> 
> A lot of people on here wouldn't have the means to keep a horse who isn't being used. I know i wouldnt! I'm restricted to what I have at the moment, I pay livery and don't have much of my own land. I'm choosing to ignore 10 years from now when Bandit is on his well earned pension cus I don't know whats going to happen. I can either choose to find him a retirement home or forget about riding - but he's a happy hacker, not competitive - my decision would be completely different from somebody who wants to compete.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your post.. different countrys do things differently, different trainers / owners do things differently..

Personally is use the word rescue... as here many ex race horses are infact sent straight to the dog meat man after track time.....

I hate hearing about this....

The Standy for example in my side pic with the pack saddle on at the rear, was just another heading to that fait... today is a cute little guy,, loving and always first to come up to the gate.. I love this repore...

Take care...(smilies)..Tony


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies but this seems to be a rapidly expanding thread and I'd like to put in my piece.

First of all, groundwork does assist with manners etc, however, there are so many situations that just don't warrant it. "Hey, wanna go on a trail ride with me? You can ride my 18 year old QH gelding that I teach very beginner lessons on." does not warrant 30 minutes of ground work. 

If I'm going to view a potential buy, I request to see that the basic things are in place (leading, tacking, touching all over, staying out of my space, all that good stuff) IN THE BARN before anyone gets on the horse, I look at the tack they use, the spurs (if any), and any other equipment they intend on using. Then, the owner gets on for a short period of time, and then I'm on there quick as a flash, pushing the horse to see what it can do. 

I have friends who have bought horses at auctions for PEANUTS and they've turned out to be some of the most fantastic horses I've ever met. In fact, my own horse was purchased at one. 

As for "getting what you paid for" you can find fabulous horses at auctions for goodness knows what reasons. The horse market in many places isn't doing so great, coupled with the lack of hay recently? Who knows what you'd find. I bought my horse (years ago), for $1,000. He had been raced, shown, and had some very solid dressage training. He came UTD on everything, with his blankets, and a whole bag of feed. Now, he's 12 years old, in his prime, doing everything from western gaming to teaching beginner lessons. He's worth his weight in gold as far as I'm concerned - AND I got him from an auction.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*buying a horse*

Seems to me that there are an abundance of very experienced riders on this thread all very keen to point out how great they are and how quickly they can turn a horse around. 
Unfortunately there are more and more people out there with not a lot of cash in a desperate rush to buy a cheap horse and not a lot of knowledge or common sense. these are the very people who will fall foul of unscrupulous sellers - one quick ride around a menage after watching a young girl who is a much better rider than you give her credit for make it look easy, quite often the horse has been ridden enough before they got there to wear it out and maybe also given a 'little shot of something' to settle it down. They are buying from sales with no warranty and not even a chance to ride. Even in the UK with a warranty at one time horses were being sent back to auctions like Brightwells as fast as they went out because they weren't what they were supposed to be. Trouble is you can't keep them long enough to see what they will be like after a lot of handling and settling in. 
There is groundwork and there is groundwork and if you dont know what you're doing you will mess it up anyway. A lot of problem horses are so messed up that it can take ages to sort them out mentally and physically before you even think of riding them. These horses are best left to the experts who can afford the time & money to do the job. A quick fix job by an experienced rider to sell a horse on fast usually involves some bullying, the moment that horse realises how easily it can get the upper hand with a novice it soon returns to its bad ways
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here but there are far too many people who think they are better than they are & buying out of their depth, not enough genuine good trainers willing to put the time into producing a safe horse, not enough honest sellers


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Randella said:


> I haven't read all the replies but this seems to be a rapidly expanding thread and I'd like to put in my piece.
> 
> First of all, groundwork does assist with manners etc, however, there are so many situations that just don't warrant it. "Hey, wanna go on a trail ride with me? You can ride my 18 year old QH gelding that I teach very beginner lessons on." does not warrant 30 minutes of ground work.
> 
> ...


Good morning to you.. I value your opinion..(smilies)

I would like to extend to you also to come ride one of the two recent arrivals here without doing any ground work to see what he does first...

He looks a great looking horse, calm in the paddock, all the bling that folks seem to look for today,....I will even help tack him up for you.......

This by the way, this is the horse a good friend bought bout three weeks ago from auction, my friend is a good rider who can stick fairly well but is currently resting up in hospital with four broken ribs after this horse bolted after a truck past it and at a gallop back to his paddock started rodeo bucking.....

I believe this horse may have a few issues but you will sort them in five....

Smilies.. I await your arrival.....

Cheers Tony


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Seems to me that there are an abundance of very experienced riders on this thread all very keen to point out how great they are and how quickly they can turn a horse around.


GREAT comment. Love it.

At any rate, I somewhat resent the fact that some posters (not the poster I quoted above, but others) seem to be trying to imply (or just coming flat out and saying it) that those of us who choose to take our time with horses are doing so because we can't handle it, are afraid, or don't know what we're doing. Maybe we're taking our time because we feel it's best for the horse. It's certainly not hurting the horse for them to have some time off just being a horse and being pampered for awhile. I certainly admit that it's not an option for everyone but I, like the original poster, have an abundance of pasture (and also free hay) and having an extra horse or two out there isn't going to cause me any extra grief. 

But... the fact that I prefer to move slowly with horses that I feel need it means that I would never cut it in the professional training world... I just don't operate well under timelines and prefer to let the horse... not the owner... dictate what speed the training progresses at. (I'm certainly not saying that all horses take a year but I certainly will never believe that 30 days training on a horse is enough for a greenhorn rider to be heading out on the range on it.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

If you'll scroll back to the second paragraph of my first submission, and read the first line, I do state that ground work has it's place. When rehabbing a rescue? sure.

I was merely stating there ARE situations where it's probably going to be okay to get on a horse you aren't familiar with.

After all, horses are horses and have brains of their own. It's just as easy for a rescue to throw a rider, as it is a very well schooled show horse. 

Finally, I never stated that I was a trainer, nor that I would be able to "fix" issue horses. All I said was that I bought a horse from an auction, and that I got him for what I consider cheap, taking into consideration his training and the items that came with him in the sale.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> Seems to me that there are an abundance of very experienced riders on this thread all very keen to point out how great they are and how quickly they can turn a horse around.
> Unfortunately there are more and more people out there with not a lot of cash in a desperate rush to buy a cheap horse and not a lot of knowledge or common sense. these are the very people who will fall foul of unscrupulous sellers - one quick ride around a menage after watching a young girl who is a much better rider than you give her credit for make it look easy, quite often the horse has been ridden enough before they got there to wear it out and maybe also given a 'little shot of something' to settle it down. They are buying from sales with no warranty and not even a chance to ride. Even in the UK with a warranty at one time horses were being sent back to auctions like Brightwells as fast as they went out because they weren't what they were supposed to be. Trouble is you can't keep them long enough to see what they will be like after a lot of handling and settling in.
> There is groundwork and there is groundwork and if you dont know what you're doing you will mess it up anyway. A lot of problem horses are so messed up that it can take ages to sort them out mentally and physically before you even think of riding them. These horses are best left to the experts who can afford the time & money to do the job. A quick fix job by an experienced rider to sell a horse on fast usually involves some bullying, the moment that horse realises how easily it can get the upper hand with a novice it soon returns to its bad ways
> I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here but there are far too many people who think they are better than they are & buying out of their depth, not enough genuine good trainers willing to put the time into producing a safe horse, not enough honest sellers


I rest my case......!


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## PaintedHeart (May 24, 2011)

i have nothing against ground work, if done properly and with the proper mentality going into it. 

Plenty of good horses can be ruined by inexperienced people who have no idea what they're doing. But I do think that groundwork has it's place, depending on the horse. I also agree that not every horse requires it. I've known horses that were terrible on the ground and fabulous under saddle, and vice versa. 

That being said, I believe that groundwork must not be thought of as a "cure all". In just the couple of years that I've been riding, I've seen too many people who seem to think that if their horse is solid at groundwork, nothing bad will EVER happen. Groundwork can be helpful, but do not assume that your horse will be perfect after. A girl I board with owns one of the calmest, most-laid back horses I have ever met. He has wonderful ground manners. However, he will still spook from time to time if he feels the situation warrants it. 

As for the idea that most horses being sold are problem horses, I feel that other posters have covered that pretty thoroughly. Particularly in this economy, most _aren't_.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> I rest my case......!


Tony, there are stupid / ignorant people who buy a horse that isn't a match for them. I'm one. That is, however, a completely different statement than what you made in your OP.

Darn near everyone on HF would agree folks buy a horse sometimes that isn't a good match. But giving all horses an automatic year off wouldn't do anything to correct that problem.



canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> ...Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...
> 
> Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse..
> 
> If you are unsure what this entails, google horse groundwork training,,...


If someone has to use Google to learn about horse groundwork training, then they aren't going to be ready to DO any significant retraining of a horse. Happily, most horses I've met do fine without a year off. And most do fine without needing professional retraining.

Maybe horses in America are a happier, more relaxed lot?:wink:


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Randella said:


> If you'll scroll back to the second paragraph of my first submission, and read the first line, I do state that ground work has it's place. When rehabbing a rescue? sure.
> 
> I was merely stating there ARE situations where it's probably going to be okay to get on a horse you aren't familiar with.
> 
> ...


Its folks like you, with your posts that cause others to think. *she did it* *ok*.. I guess I am a little nervous but ok. I will hop on this horse of hers..

My friend Rob, thought he was bullet proof and climbed on his new horse without doing any prep.. he is paying the price..

All I am saying to the general reader / rider. is be cautious before hoping on any horse you personally dont know.. make sure said horse has brakes, and can steer some first..

Its funny.. when I was younger and lived and worked on a high country sheep station in the mountains we used horses everyday, all day often, I used to think I could get on anything and ride with the best of them.. often this was the case... but equally often the horse ended up with the final say..... I have all the broken bones to brag about..

These days I still ride daily, infact in a short while am taking two down to the beach being Wed for a good gallop.. I love it.... but these days I am a little more experienced and have grown to dislike ambulance rides... so am a little more cautious with strange horses..

This is only *my opinion* with horses that come into my life..(smilies)

Cheers Tony


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Folks, some of you seem to dis interpret what I am saying on ground work..

I dont do any ground work on any of my normal riding horses before going for a ride.....

Having said this...

I take in some horses that for what ever reason have been mistreated or abused etc and in my time restart these..

Two totally different types of riding horse....

Personally with a few years of experience, I will not climb on any horse that is strange to me without some ground work first..

My original post on here was as a result of reading about people buying horses from Auction and getting them home saddling them up to be bucked off or have one of those hat flying off rides where this horse has bolted on them....
If perhaps before they hoped on said horse, did a little ground work to see if this horse had brakes or could be steered a little just may have helped reverse the trend of some of these folks learning the art of human un aided flight...

Secondly.... its none of you folks business how long I personally like to turn out any of my new arrivals.. I do this on purpose..

You all have you opinion.... some of you are perhaps better writers than horsefolks...

What I write is my experiences with horses from most walks of life in the 40 years of riding..

Have a nice day folks... time to log out and saddle up one of my broncs... cant wait..lol

Cheers Tony


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Its folks like you, with your posts that cause others to think. *she did it* *ok*.. I guess I am a little nervous but ok. I will hop on this horse of hers..


What exactly are you saying? Me finding a good horse at an auction makes me a bad example to other people? That I misguide, and intentionally make horses seem better than they are to riders who are newer than I am? 

First of all, YES. I did buy a horse from an auction. And he is a * phenomenal* horse. That's a bonus for me. I'm not saying all horses at auctions are great, some are completely insane. But there are some honest horses who need good homes. 

Secondly, *I make it a point to make sure if I'm selling a horse, or offering to allow someone to ride my horse, the horse and rider are suitable for one another.* I would under no circumstances show a horse in such a way that would misconstrue it's skill level or temperament. 

Horses are living things. They have brains of their own. No horse is bombproof or perfect all the time. Accidents happen on horses that you know, accidents happen on horses you don't know. 

And finally, I'm glad you have your own opinion of how terrible of a person I (and everyone else who disagrees with you), am/are but laying blame on people before you know anything about them and the way they operate is just plain ignorant.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Randella said:


> What exactly are you saying? Me finding a good horse at an auction makes me a bad example to other people? That I misguide, and intentionally make horses seem better than they are to riders who are newer than I am?
> 
> First of all, YES. I did buy a horse from an auction. And he is a *phenomenal* horse. That's a bonus for me. I'm not saying all horses at auctions are great, some are completely insane. But there are some honest horses who need good homes.
> 
> ...


I agree.. my wife will back you up.. I am a bull headed individual...but a safe one toboot..!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

anyone coming for a good gallop along the beach for a few kilometres with me in an hour.....?? smilies..

Now thats fun...!


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

OP you have the whole happy to be right no matter the circumstance. I can just see you telling the story of your poor friend with your happy to be right kind of thingie going on. Sad truly sad. I don't care how many cheerios you give out and smiles. Taunting is a very negative way to be, on the horse forum. It's fine to dissagree but the other remarks at the end aren't needed.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Good grief. If I avoided "strange" horses I wouldn't have a job. 

Just as you don't want the hypothetical 'everyone' to think they _can_ ride anything with hair, I don't want anyone to avoid riding because someone on the internet tells them it's a bad idea.

I'll give the readers who are interested in horses and riding more credit for common sense than you.

And, I completely disagree with your assertion that most horses who are on the market are being sold for dubious reasons. Please. The horses I buy for myself for resale are incredibly low end because I love finding those 'diamonds in the rough.' The horses I buy for sport horsemen are much higher quality. I get good ones in both bunches.

Thank goodness somebody sold good horses or most people wouldn't get to own one at all! lol


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## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Not all sale horses are created equal.
Not all folks that buy them are equal.

If you can't read a horse take someone that can when buying.

If it took me a year to get on one,
I would be rethinking my method way before a year hit.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Does it cost any less to feed them if they're working?? Are you saying that they're worthless if they aren't "earning their keep?" What about old, retired horses? Should we just euthanize them because they are just getting fat off our hay/pastures and not doing anything for us in return?
> 
> I'm sure some feel this way, but to me horses are more than just something to ride. Since I haven't ridden in three years, if they were I certainly wouldn't be on a horse forum.


No I am NOT saying anything of the sort. Please don't put words there that are not I do rescue work and that offends me you saying this '
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, what an interesting read, so many blanket statements..

I would of been shocked if the guy who Bought Mr G waited to ride him, he was safe, ready to go, and no need to wait.

My new mares, both have had some issues, so yea we are doing ground work, and Emmy has to learn to trust me an awful lot more before I get on her.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> OP you have the whole happy to be right no matter the circumstance. I can just see you telling the story of your poor friend with your happy to be right kind of thingie going on. Sad truly sad. I don't care how many cheerios you give out and smiles. Taunting is a very negative way to be, on the horse forum. It's fine to dissagree but the other remarks at the end aren't needed.


I'm more amused with the topic of the thread completely conflicting with the repeated offers to come ride the OP's horses


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## kizmet (Aug 19, 2012)

There is a HUGE difference between a weekend cowboy, and an experienced rider. There isalso a huge diffrence between an auction horse and a show horse.
I am somewhere between the first two, and I have to say that for me a few minutes will work. However I am not going to take off down the road on an unknown horse the first time up. In fact I have a rule that no horse leaves the yard without my taking them through obstacles.
The real problem starts when someone who rode a horse when they were a kid gets a $50 horse and thinks they know what to do. I broke horses when I was a kid. I had a bit to learn over when I got back to them.
Now I occasionally school some green-horn (feel free to change that) who has gone out and gotten a good horse, and messed them up.

"human unaided flight" LOL. I know how to do that! Last time I tried I had ****ed off the Shetland.

If wishes were horses; good God what a mess!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Canterbury, I'll happily come for a gallop down the beach with you! it is something i do on a regular basis and I do it bareback!
oh and i have lost my brakes on the beach before, but if you are going to lose them you may as well do it on a beach where you can let them run themselves into exhaustion!


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## kizmet (Aug 19, 2012)

And a word of wisdom. If you ever find yourself on a strange horse that freaks out the second you leave the safe zone, you may be wise to dismount. The doctor said I was OK; barely. 
I should not have turned her around. Eventually she became good enough fora novice.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Thank you to all that have posted on this thread....

Today was a blast on the horses thru the tight forest trail down to the beach and then we raced up the beach to the other end with my mount a 17 hand T/B racing a little 14.2 hand Standy....

The tide was out so a flat hard sand beach to race along..

The little standy was still extended trotting with us at a med fast canter, but as I pushed my mount along into a gallop the standy took off also into a gallop.. it was neck and neck for the 8 kilometres believe it or not even thought the two horses were very different in height and leg length..

We stopped for an icecream at the camping ground store and then back thru the forest to the float again... 

This to me is what horses are about... 

( please note no *smilies* posted at the end to keep some of my post friends happy..(Wink)


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider - you are being a little general in yourassumption that a horse is only sold for a few suspect reasons.

I have two for sale right now - I bred them to sell them - they are lovely honest horses. I don't ride anymore so can't bring them on myself.

Often the problem with a horse is the rider! Too many people think they are gods gift to the horse world and buy horses that are beyond their capabilities.

I've lost count of the number of horses I've got on without doing any ground work at all. If a horse has been broken well and schooled consistantly to the considered norm then I should be able to get on it and ride it with no problems.

Look at Mark Todd - he got a catch ride at Badminton and went on to win the competition. He only saw the horse the day before the competition.

Commonsense should prevail - if the horse is skittish then lunge it first to get rid of excess energy, or get on and just ride through the naught behaviour


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Lol you are a cheeky devil. Smiles all round.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many moons ago - long before I lost most of my bounce ability, I was working with an Irish horse dealer.
I cannot begin to tell you the number of horses I got on - often in the middle of the night when they arrived straight from Ireland, bareback with a rope halter fashioned out of string. 

A lot of them would never have been ridden before but, tired from the long journey, they would walk trot and canter and find their was to the other side of a couple of 3'6" telegraph poles with no problems.

On a trip to Eire I chose, in a big dealers yard, a chestnut horse to fox hunt in a couple of days time. I was the worse for drink at the time but I do recall looking in his mouth and seeing he was a six year old. Big horse with a kind eye.

At the meet a few days later I looked when I saw 'my' horse being unloaded. I did think that I had lost my eye as this was chestnut, but not the sort I would have picked. As they legged me up so the horse bucked before I had even got on. 
I did get on her and she took off bucking through the village with me. At the top of a hill she stopped and we turned and bucked our way back down the hill. 
At the first jump she chested it and fell. I stepped onto her as she got up. 
That days hunting was a bit hairy to say the least but she was popping all things and generally loving it. 
On my return to the dealers I commented that it was not the horse I had chosen and was told that the horse I had picked had been sold to Italy and this mare had been backed a few weeks before struck into herself and been lame. She was sound and they thought it would do her good to have a days hunting!
I was asked if I wanted to buy her and when I said "No thanks" he remarked "Well I shall be advertising her as 'Hunted By A Lady'" to which his grandson said "Granda, if you had heard some of the words yeed not be callin her a lady!"

Never did the mare any harm, nor me. Playing around doing ground work bores me and bores the horse. 
Why use six legs when you can use four?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

We write about riders mounting with trepidation a horse fresh to them for the first time. What about the poor horse?

For the intelligent sensitive horse, there can be nothing worse than to be mounted coarsely by an under educated and unsupervised novice in unfamiliar surroundings where:
a steel bit is to be stuffed between its teeth; 
an unfamiliar and possibly ill fitting saddle might be plonked and then
 strapped on tight with a girth;
an insensitive rider is to drop down on the horse's unsuspecting back;
an unfamiliar voice is to bark out unintelligible verbal instructions
 perhaps accompanied by a kick in the ribs or a jerk in the mouth.

A few years ago as a regular rider at a trail riding centre, I used to watch gross incompetence on numerous occasions. I would stand at the horse's head, holding a lead rope attached to a thin cord head collar. It was my job to keep the horse from taking off and not to re-educate the incompetent rider who was a paying customer. I have so many times stroked a horse's fevered brow and whispered to it soothing words, whilst yet another ignorant visitor cocked his or her leg over the horse's back and literally dropped down into the saddle, often only then to jerk the horse’s mouth with the bit. Most of the visitors never bothered to introduce themselves to the horse nor did they even check the fit of the saddle or the bridle.

Some of the more tolerant steeds to be found in that centre would submit themselves to the poor treatment with admirable stoicism. Others in the herd quivered and wondered what was in store for them over the next few hours.

I have long since made a rule that my own horse is never to be subjected to this form of abuse. 

For a rider to make initial contact with a horse through a metre of leather rein with a jointed steel bar wedged between the horse's teeth is an act of intimacy and it is not one to be carelessly abused perhaps through ignorance. Furthermore the rider once mounted is to sit quietly and upright on the horse, centrally in the saddle, with his or her weight equally distributed front to rear, side to side. Brute force, loud voices and clumsy hands have no place in any riding stable especially alongside the mounting bloc.

If the horse has been trained to stand whilst being mounted, then the rider must have been trained how to mount up correctly.

Much of how a horse subsequently responds to a fresh rider is determined in that first moment of mounting and if a horse does subsequently play up, the question must be asked if the horse’s negative reaction was in response to the rider’s initial clumsiness or ignorance.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> Lol you are a cheeky devil. Smiles all round.


Good Morning to you..(smilies)

I cant help it... again my wife will back you.. I am a cheeky ******, and love a good laugh and joke, 

Life is for living.... toooooooooo many serious folks these days...

_*Tony again hides behind a large tree to avoid the incoming flack..lol*_


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Tnavas said:


> canterburyhorsetrailrider - you are being a little general in yourassumption that a horse is only sold for a few suspect reasons.
> 
> I have two for sale right now - I bred them to sell them - they are lovely honest horses. I don't ride anymore so can't bring them on myself.
> 
> ...


Good morning to you.. thank you for your post..

In part I totally agree with you on your post..... ten times out of 9 most horse riding problems stem from the riders who inflict their stamp on the poor old horse, and with their whips and spurs insist the poor old horse do as they want....

*Its my opinion* that it should be the riders going to the trainer not the horse...

Funny enough.. I knew Mark and Caroline Todd personally... he used to own a property here in Rangiora next to our business yard..... and I know Mark would certainly not hop straight on one of the two recent arrivals I have here without checking to see if the horse had some controls first..

You are right.... Common sense is the key...


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Many moons ago - long before I lost most of my bounce ability, I was working with an Irish horse dealer.
> I cannot begin to tell you the number of horses I got on - often in the middle of the night when they arrived straight from Ireland, bareback with a rope halter fashioned out of string.
> 
> A lot of them would never have been ridden before but, tired from the long journey, they would walk trot and canter and find their was to the other side of a couple of 3'6" telegraph poles with no problems.
> ...


Smilies... that was some dream.....!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Barry Godden said:


> We write about riders mounting with trepidation a horse fresh to them for the first time. What about the poor horse?
> 
> For the intelligent sensitive horse, there can be nothing worse than to be mounted coarsely by an under educated and unsupervised novice in unfamiliar surroundings where:
> a steel bit is to be stuffed between its teeth;
> ...


Congratulations....... Finally a *true horseman* here on this forum.... Man your sort are few and far between from where I sit...

and I bet.... like *all* our riding horses here.. all of your riding horses are the *same style*....calm, safe, and a nice ride.....!
What does that tell you....?

Well done to try your best to look after those poor horses thru the ignorance of the average comer inflicting their moneys worth on said horses.

If I was one of those horse, I recon I would just give them their moneys worth and buck them off.....then I believe it would be..... one all....! (smilies)


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Good morning to you.. thank you for your post..
> 
> In part I totally agree with you on your post..... ten times out of 9 most horse riding problems stem from the riders who inflict their stamp on the poor old horse, and with their whips and spurs insist the poor old horse do as they want....
> 
> ...


I'm from Mark's home town - got a photo of him and me yesterday when the Olympic team were welcomed to Cambridge.

There will always be one or two horses that we consider before getting on and may do somegrouond or preparatory work first - I lunge all my suspect horses first before getting on. If I spent hours on the ground with each then they would never get ridden.

A good rider shouold be able to assess a horse within a few minutes of riding it, when I was studying for my teacing exams it was compusory that I get on the pupils horse, ride it for up to 10 mins, assess it so that I could then help them rather than just teach cold.

Look at all the show judges in the UK - they have to ride the horses too - not just look at them. Really sorts out the ones that look pretty but give a bad ride.

Looking after your own safety is important but being too cautious takes the fun out of riding. 

If a horse has been broken properly, schooled adequately using consistant aids its not crazy to get straight on a strange horse.

What we need to do is educate riders to use the same aids that are used world wide - then we won't have confused horses.

And the picture - have to share - he's my hero!


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Congratulations....... Finally a *true horseman* here on this forum.... Man your sort are few and far between from where I sit...
> 
> and I bet.... like *all* our riding horses here.. all of your riding horses are the *same style*....calm, safe, and a nice ride.....!
> What does that tell you....?
> ...


 
And with my inability of being a true horse(wo)man.. I'm going to take this opportunity to depart from this discussion. Heres hoping I can converse freely with the rest of those who are not true horsemen/women


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Congratulations....... Finally a *true horseman* here on this forum.... Man your sort are few and far between from where I sit...
> 
> and I bet.... like *all* our riding horses here.. all of your riding horses are the *same style*....calm, safe, and a nice ride.....!
> What does that tell you....?
> ...


What a totally condescending person you are. :-x


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Tnavas said:


> I'm from Mark's home town - got a photo of him and me yesterday when the Olympic team were welcomed to Cambridge.
> 
> There will always be one or two horses that we consider before getting on and may do somegrouond or preparatory work first - I lunge all my suspect horses first before getting on. If I spent hours on the ground with each then they would never get ridden.
> 
> ...


Good morning to you.. thank you for your post.

Yes it is about common sense, and yes I too am happy to climb on a horse I know or one that is a friends horse that I have seen ridden...

All the way thru this thread folks have taken bits of it, blown it up like topsy, and posted it..

*My* *initial reason*..... and I say it again for the hundreth time.........

Is if you buy a horse from an *auction.. that you have noooooooot seeeeeeeeeeeeen being ridden and have no hisssssstory of it under saddle......... dont hop on it until you "know" it has some control.....!*

ion


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> What a totally condescending person you are. :-x


Good morning to you... thank you for your post this morning... yes I am one of those in some folks eyes..!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Good Morning to you..(smilies)
> 
> I cant help it... again my wife will back you.. I am a cheeky ******, and love a good laugh and joke,
> 
> ...


Of course you are a cheeky ****** who likes throwing a skunk on the fires of those where most skunks come from!

Their humour is very different to antipodeans who are well related to us Brits!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Smiles.... I love a well rounded debate and it does seem that I have opened a rather large can of worms so to speak on on this forum...

We all have an opinion...... we all base that opinion on our own personal history of the event written about.....

Again who is right... again.. who is wrong....?

It doesnt matter.....!

What does matter is that we all love to hop on a horse and go riding in what ever pursuit we dream to follow....... *and be able to do it safely*....!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Of course you are a cheeky ****** who likes throwing a skunk on the fires of those where most skunks come from!
> 
> Their humour is very different to antipodeans who are well related to us Brits!


Smilies.. I couldnt possibly add further comment...!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> ...Many many horses are sold because of one reason........ said horse has caused grief to a previous owner.....
> 
> ...Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...
> 
> ...


vs



canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> ...*My* *initial reason*..... and I say it again for the hundreth time.........
> 
> Is if you buy a horse from an *auction.. that you have noooooooot seeeeeeeeeeeeen being ridden and have no hisssssstory of it under saddle......... dont hop on it until you "know" it has some control.....!*


Glad you're coming around to what so many others have pooossstttteeeeedddddddd.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Is if you buy a horse from an *auction.. that you have noooooooot seeeeeeeeeeeeen being ridden and have no hisssssstory of it under saddle......... dont hop on it until you "know" it has some control.....!*
> 
> ion


I don't usualy get snotty with posters but you are as others have put condescending! Where in your initial post did you mention

*BUYING FROM AN AUCTION..............?*

Any GOOD horseperson can reasonably assess a horse within a short time. 

Any GOOD horseperson will lunge a horse from an auction before getting on it

Any GOOD Horseperson will not need to spend hours and hours on the ground to prepare a horse prior to riding

Any GOOD Horseperson will notice how the horse behaves, once on ride quietly to feel the horses reactions and then push on to find out what the horse knows/understands.

Any GOOD Horseman will be able to sit a few angry bucks and if needs may, halt the horse, get off and organise Plan B.

Working on the ground ONLY DEALS WITH SITUATIONS ON THE GROUND

I used to get horses and ponies from all places - you will remember Sandow Riding School when it was at Yaldhurst - I ran it for 9 years - we got horses and ponies from all over the place - some from the meatman too. They arrived, were saddled up and ridden - assessment took usually 10 - 15 minutes - those with serious problems went back to the meat man, many others lived a long and usefull life as sweet as can be. I also got horses straight off the track, it usually took a quick look at them to know if they had the temperement for the school and a quick ride to see if they would be OK for novice riders. Some would take a few weeks to settle into the routine and the ones who didn't were schooled up and sold on. I've sent a few to the meatworks as the majority of riders looking for horses are average riders who don't have the skill or knowledge to deal with a problem horse - those that have the ability to aren't interested in taking them on.

Pussy footing around is a waste of time, hop on ride quietly, assess.


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## Critter sitter (Jun 2, 2012)

Opinons are like other things we all have them and yes some stink more than others.. You Tony are enjoying this WAY to much.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

Phew thats some long thread. LOL okaqy Im going to toss my 2 cents worth in.
Buying a horse from private party is by far different then buying from auction. As buying unabused horse is by far different then abused. Each case is different and anyone who has experience in handling horses is going to know what steps to take for each individual horse. I treat each of mine as a individual as it should be. Not all rescue horses are crack cases, and not all horses for sale are bad horses. I have hopped right on horses I do not know, when buying from private party you would have to be a idiot not to. when purchased from a auction its a bit different. I will take them in a round pen and work them some, but I will get on that same day if all looks good. Although ground work doesnt always tell a person how they are going to be in the saddle. Again experience comes in play here.
When it comes to buying horses I always take a sellers word like a grain of salt. *( some and I mean some will tell you what you want to hear)*

As far as a good debate goes yes true but snide rude remarks to follow is not warranted here. Good for you that you give them a year great now in the real world a year is too long to let down a horse. I have taken in rescues many times many of them OTTB and OTSTBs and never was it a year let down. Even rescues of abused cases its never a year. They are handled from day one.
Over seas has their ways of doing things and thats fine to each their own. 
But the rudeness can take a hike if you ask me.
JMHO

TRR


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Critter sitter said:


> Opinons are like Arsholes we all have them and yes some stink more than others.. You Tony are enjoying this WAY to much.


My wife keeps telling me I need to behave.. all my mates know me as a smart ***... and love to play jokes on me...!

I was born with this different way of life to the norm...

As a result I have to try and control myself but its not easy..(smilies)


Folks.... I am a pussy cat.....

And yes I do enjoy a great debate..... all sides.. good and not so good..

Its amazing .. I didnt intend to provoke but think we should perhaps move on from this subject before i GET KICKED OFF this site..!


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Why is it that a scene from Snowy River is playing in my head?

"He's no rider... he's a HORSEMAN."

:lol:


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

People without basic horse sense are going to get hurt sooner or later... very likely they don't have the intuition to do anything productive with groundwork when it is needed, anyhow. Ineffective passenger types are such a liablity to themselves, as well as those around them.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Its amazing .. I didnt intend to provoke but think we should perhaps move on from this subject before i GET KICKED OFF this site..!


A little less drama would be nice 

.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> A little less drama would be nice
> 
> .


Smilies. I agree..


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

*giggles* This was an interesting read.

So let me see if I have this right. The horse that put your friend in the hospital was a fine horse until a truck drove by. So now the horse is dangerous, unrideable, and needs a bunch of groundwork? Sheesh. My little one was frightened by traffic as well. I led her out to the road and stood there watching cars go by for awhile. She didn't need to have her hindquarters moved or to be worked in a roundpen. She needed to see that cars aren't going to eat her. Viola, road-safe filly.

I was neatly dropped from my little one when she scooted out from under me because she saw a particularly frightening cow. Please explain to me how groundwork would have fixed the problem better than just getting back on, or how it would have prevented the "problem" in the first place.

If a horse bucks going into the canter, again, please explain to me how groundwork will fix the problem or prevent it in the first place.

Of course groundwork has a place. It is good to observe a horse before you mount up and make sure it is responsive to you. But I think groundwork is usually more beneficial when applied to horses with a problem _on the ground. _Aside from general responsiveness, I don't think there is much you can do on the ground that will fix a problem under saddle.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

riccil0ve said:


> *giggles* This was an interesting read.
> 
> So let me see if I have this right. The horse that put your friend in the hospital was a fine horse until a truck drove by. So now the horse is dangerous, unrideable, and needs a bunch of groundwork? Sheesh. My little one was frightened by traffic as well. I led her out to the road and stood there watching cars go by for awhile. She didn't need to have her hindquarters moved or to be worked in a roundpen. She needed to see that cars aren't going to eat her. Viola, road-safe filly.
> 
> ...


Hello there..

One of my ground work things I like to do with my horses in the training phase, is desensitising them to reduce a horses natural tendancy to shy.. 

As you will know a horse sees things differently to you or I in that it doesnt have double eye focus (the same as we humans do ) to see things side on, and this results in things such as for example a stump in the long grass being shyed at may to a horse look larger and more intimidating than it does to you and I..

The horse is a flight wired animal if it feels it is facing danger, 

When I personally start training a new horse one of the first underlying things... is to work on gaining the horses trust in me.. this unfortunately does take some time.... everything we do with a horse.... it is summing you up as a leader / rider.. its the horse that decided if it is happy to trust you in situations where it feel threatened..

Working on this trust, among many other things is important.

With ground work, there is a whole range of things I do in this desensitising phase, such as a stick with a plastic flag that makes a noise,, gently rubbing it all over and around the horse, a rope throwing it over and back and around and thru its legs.. taking a scary plastic tarp and asking the horse to walk over it back and forth. picking the tarp up and flapping it in front, behind and all around the horse, pulling the tarp up over the horses back and up over it head... quietly repeating lots of different things with it.. leaving the tarp over the horses head for example.... all the time working quietly and talking to reassure the horse as we work.... the horse learns that after a while all those scary things are perhaps not quite so scary and it quietly learns to trust you... this is only a very small sample of the ground work training I do on all my new arrival horses... all with one aim in mind...

To produce a calm, safe confident riding horse that is equiped with knowledge to take its rider out on a trail ride and know that its rider wont put it in danger and the horse thru quietly talking and reassuring wont be nearly so inclined to shy at this and that..

So to answer your question... this is how ground work can help you and your horse enjoy your day better and minimise some of the shying you talked about while on its back..

This described above is only one phase in my ground work training (combined with ridden work ) in the education of my horse..

Other folks have heaps of other ways of training.. this works for me..!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

The above writer said her little pony was scared of car and nearly put her off....

Traffic desensitising is just another of the things I do in the training phase of a new horse..

I have mentioned before, in our riding area we live near a major forest and have log trucks coming and going some 20 hours a day,, we ride our horses most days along these same roads that the trucks use..

Our horses with training dont give a dam what passes them because they trust us with our training them to realise that even though these things are big and noisy... they pass and dont hurt me...

Training does take a little time. but.... I am proud of all my horses .

Often I take nervous or fresh returning to riding folks out on another of our horses when I go roadside riding... the new rider often tenses up as they see a big log truck heading towards them, but the old horse just carries on walking.. after it passes, they often start grinning and instant chatter.... your horse is amazing....... its not amazing.. its just been trained to accept that things wont hurt it as they pass...

A safe and pleasureable horse to ride..!


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

My mares must not have read the same horse handbook you did, because I've never done any of the routine desensitizing work with either of them and they are darn unflappable. Nothing phases my older mare and my little one has only had... four? moments in her little life. My little one is an onry little brat and there isn't enough groundwork you could do in a decade to change that. She is who she is. And I encourage you to come meet her and prove me wrong! Ha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My mare did a lot of desensitizing as part of her rehab (long story). Since I don't have experience, I hired a pro to do it. But 10,000 plastic bags don't mean a horse won't get scared of something else. At best, you teach them how to handle it in a productive way. 

A couple of weeks ago, we were riding in the desert and came across a truck parked in a wash getting some sand. Mia balked. Front feet wide, back rigid, snorting...all her standards signs of "THIS is SCARY!" So I backed her about 5 feet, then dismounted, and then led her to the truck. 10 feet past it, I mounted and we went on. She has seen trucks every day for the last 4 years...but not a truck parked in a wash. It was OUT OF PLACE. It was SCARY.

She didn't spin and bolt (aka 'turn & burn'). That is probably as good as she will ever get. She can get shaking scared, but I can back her & dismount and show her it isn't scary to me. Then she adds it to things that are not scary.

Now - how would ANYONE check for that doing ground work? It wasn't the truck that was scary, but the truck where a truck shouldn't be.

Mia & I have done a lot of bolts together, hence the training/retraining. But you could ride her for months without a complaint from her, particularly in an arena. In a round pen, she'll fall asleep. You won't learn her inner demons on a lunge line. You won't learn them in a round pen. And you can ride her and she'll give her best...until something SCARY comes up.

But in an arena? Does this look like a scary horse?


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

riccil0ve said:


> My mares must not have read the same horse handbook you did, because I've never done any of the routine desensitizing work with either of them and they are darn unflappable. Nothing phases my older mare and my little one has only had... four? moments in her little life. My little one is an onry little brat and there isn't enough groundwork you could do in a decade to change that. She is who she is. And I encourage you to come meet her and prove me wrong! Ha!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would be interested to see your unflappable horses reaction with you on its back and me see standing on the ground with a couple of things in my hand to see how unflappable it actually is..!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Well folks,
Again thank you for all your posts on this fun thread topic.

Its time to move on with happy feet..! 

Cheers Tony


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

bsms said:


> My mare did a lot of desensitizing as part of her rehab (long story). Since I don't have experience, I hired a pro to do it. But 10,000 plastic bags don't mean a horse won't get scared of something else. At best, you teach them how to handle it in a productive way.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, we were riding in the desert and came across a truck parked in a wash getting some sand. Mia balked. Front feet wide, back rigid, snorting...all her standards signs of "THIS is SCARY!" So I backed her about 5 feet, then dismounted, and then led her to the truck. 10 feet past it, I mounted and we went on. She has seen trucks every day for the last 4 years...but not a truck parked in a wash. It was OUT OF PLACE. It was SCARY.
> 
> ...


You did the right thing in getting off and walking her past the scary thing..

Your horse is all the time learning.... learning also to trust your quiet voice reassuring her that its ok....

Ground work is only one part of a horses training...... ONE of the most important tools a rider / trainer needs is that word "trust"...

You cant go and buy this..... if you send your horse to a trainer for what ever reason, the trainer cannot ask or make....your horse be accepting of you as its rider / leader... only time in the saddle with you and your horse dealing with each and every situation that crops up, combined with what you have taught it will hopefully result in your horse accepting and trusting you.
Again, this is only what I have found to work for me.!


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> I would be interested to see your unflappable horses reaction with you on its back and me see standing on the ground with a couple of things in my hand to see how unflappable it actually is..!


Do you mind if I also eat my breakfast, because I really don't have time to do both and quite frankly, we'll get bored. Get off your high horse, you aren't the only person in the world that can make a good horse.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> Do you mind if I also eat my breakfast, because I really don't have time to do both and quite frankly, we'll get bored. Get off your high horse, you aren't the only person in the world that can make a good horse.


I agree. The arrogant, "I know every thing" tone is really annoying.

We all agree that group work has it's place, but as every one has said over and over, it's not a fix all problem solver.


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## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

Horses are naturally fight or flight animals. No matter how much ground work is done with a horse, you will not be able to over ride that natural instinct. This instinct results in horses bolting, spooking, rearing and bucking, as they are, in most cases, trying to avoid something unfamiliar or a pressure/pain. The truth is that ground work might not have stopped that buddy of yours from being injured. The horse could have very easily lounged fine one day and the next time you go to ride he could have been stung by a bee. The majority of insidents regarding "dangerous" horses are caused by things that are out of our hands due to instincts the horse naturally has. 
For example: My sister and I were doing some endurance training at a working trot, on a trail the horse knows like the back of his hoof, when her horse saw something move out of the corner of his eye. He sat and spun one way while my sister went the other. She was fine, but no matter how much ground work she or I could have done would not have stopped her horse from spooking when he saw something he believed was a threat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Monty77 said:


> Horses are naturally fight or flight animals. No matter how much ground work is done with a horse, you will not be able to over ride that natural instinct. This instinct results in horses bolting, spooking, rearing and bucking, as they are, in most cases, trying to avoid something unfamiliar or a pressure/pain. The truth is that ground work might not have stopped that buddy of yours from being injured. The horse could have very easily lounged fine one day and the next time you go to ride he could have been stung by a bee. The majority of insidents regarding "dangerous" horses are caused by things that are out of our hands due to instincts the horse naturally has.
> For example: My sister and I were doing some endurance training at a working trot, on a trail the horse knows like the back of his hoof, when her horse saw something move out of the corner of his eye. He sat and spun one way while my sister went the other. She was fine, but no matter how much ground work she or I could have done would not have stopped her horse from spooking when he saw something he believed was a threat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you... all the training in the world will still end up with a horse that is a horse..

Training helps to desenitise the horse and in time learns hopefully to trust you when you tell it that its ok when a hazard is encountered

Nothing beats time in the saddle once basic training is done..

Thats what works for me.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'd rather drag a horse everywhere I go behind my 19yr old gelding than flap a bunch of plastic bags at it. They'll get all that and a bag of chips being ponied around the shows and in the mountains on trails.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Ruby is now 4 - she has spent most of her young life in the paddock being a horse.

As a foal she was shown in hand - she learnt to lead, stand, be bathed, feet done, walk on to the truck - she chooses to actually jump in and oout which is quite entertaining when she was young but is now 17hh. 

She spent a year in her paddock barely touched - on the Monday we collected her - she went straight on the truck - she bounced around a bit her lessons forgotten. On the Saturday after a good bath, trim and plait she went to a show took out the champion saddle hunter youngster for the 2nd year in a row.

A year later I had to move her to a paddock up the road. She had barely been out of her paddock except to have her feet trimmed. I ut a bridle on her and the lunge cavesson and led her up the road with the lunge line attached. She walked past road signs, drains, mail boxes and a couple of cars drove past - she didn't care. 

Just recently I took her to a friends place - I'd like their daughter to take her on as a show jumping prospect - she was put in the round pen while I examined some Pony Club kids. At one point I looked accross and she was standing there tied up. She's only ever been cross tied before. An hour later she is still quietly tied there when the train came through - I thought this might be interesting - it always goes slow past the riding school and there is my 4yr old watching with ears pricked, not a quivering step in sight. 
She will be a great horse one day - nothing phases her. Yet her father is Westminster a TB and was a good racehorse too. 

She really has had minimal handling - but what she had was quality handling. You really don't need to spend months and months - heaven help a year to develop trust and respect.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Reeco is unflappable inhand, walk him past combined harvesters, over tarpaulins, hang plastic bags off his ears etc.

Under saddle he is a nightmare and I've been told more then a few times to have him shot before he kills me. He is sharp and spooky and that is the way he will always be undersaddle, he has no trust issues on the ground, however undersaddle is a whole other kettle of fish.

No amount of Groundwork can make up for a lack of a decent rider!

My Trainer can take some of the Rankest horses in the UK and turn them into useful members of equine society in a max of 9 weeks.

Judges in the Uk showring will often ride over 100 strange horses in a day (heck some classes get on for 50 in a class) never ever seen one do any ground work with them. They watch them walk trot and cantered in a group and then get on each one in turn. Very few judges have been hurt doing this.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Well done to all you folks above.....(smilies)


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Had another cool ride up in the hills behind our block this afternoon with my hard case Irish Draught...

Its still muddy as up there after we have had 5 inches of rain in as many days but spring is not far away so time to start quietly working on reconditioning my trekking horses for the up coming season... Cant wait for the snow to melt and to be able to ride back up into the mountains again..


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> Get off your high horse, you aren't the only person in the world that can make a good horse.


Question: if you didn't do groundwork, what did YOU do to "make" them good horses? Or were they naturally unflappable?

Back when I was 16 and fearless (when I thought I was unbreakable) I might've skipped all groundwork but now that I'm old and feeble, I'd prefer to do the introductions to "potentially scary stuff" on the ground. Of course, the potentially scary stuff must then also be introduced while you're in the saddle, because we all know that horses don't really generalize and what's okay on the ground might not be okay in the saddle.

I don't think the OP is saying that saddle time is worthless, I think he's saying that FIRST comes groundwork, and THEN comes saddle time. I definitely agree with that. He ruffled some feathers with his comment re: what kind of horses are up for sale and I think some people are dwelling on that. 

I disagree with those posters who seem to be saying that groundwork is worthless and you should just get on and go, every time. Each horse is different and each requires a different amount of training time. We might be able to tell within a few moments of beginning groundwork that this horse is going to be okay, and then... by all means... get on and go. But I think what the OP is saying is that it's just a good, safe idea to at least get a read on the horse before hopping in the saddle. If you can tell what the horse is going to do by watching it standing there for a couple of seconds... then bless you with both hands and share some of your magic with me.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

No one said they thought groundwork was useless. We are all saying it has a place, but is not always necessary every time you get on a horse.

As for my girls, if they see something new and scary while on a trail, I just start distracting them. Little one once thought a tree stump was scary. I did a bunch of figure 8's and circles and just kept her feet moving and didn't let her dwell and we got past it just fine. I do this every time I have a horse get "looky." Doing groundwork isn't the only way you can show your horse that you are trustworthy and the leader. It's not just about throwing every scary thing you have at them at the ground, it's being able to control the spook. I can wave sticks at my horse all day long, it won't stop them from occasionally looking at a stick on the ground with wary eyes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

nikelodeon79 said:


> ...I disagree with those posters who seem to be saying that groundwork is worthless and you should just get on and go, every time...
> 
> ...But I think what the OP is saying is that it's just a good, safe idea to at least get a read on the horse before hopping in the saddle...


If that was what the OP had said, this would have been a short thread. Nor have I seen anyone say you should just hop on any horse, any time with zero evaluation.

From post #1:_"Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...

Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse.."_​THAT is what got folks spun up.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> No one said they thought groundwork was useless. We are all saying it has a place, but is not always necessary every time you get on a horse.


I don't think the OP is saying that, either. I think he's saying that you should at least do a little to gauge the temperament of a NEW horse that you've NEVER ridden before.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

bsms said:


> If that was what the OP had said, this would have been a short thread. Nor have I seen anyone say you should just hop on any horse, any time with zero evaluation.
> 
> From post #1:_"Generally horses that are for sale are either unwanted, unridden, or a danger... and you as the unsuspecting buyer falls in love with its colour and the fact that when you went to look at it, you saw it in its home enviroment calm and collected...
> 
> Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse.."_​THAT is what got folks spun up.


Umm... didn't I just say that?!?

I said that people got all bent out of shape (myself included) by THAT particular comment so are digging in their heels and saying that EVERYTHING this poster is saying is wrong.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

What about the story of his friend, who had this new horse that he HAS ridden before with no issue, and the horse spooked at a truck? This wasn't a new horse that the guy had never seen/ridden before, but even though this was the example the OP made, he is just saying to gauge temperament on the ground before you get on a new horse? Your idea of what the OP is saying and what the OP are saying are entirely different things. The OP is under the misguided impression that extensive groundwork would have prevented the horse from spooking. Groundwork has a place! If my little one gets pushy on the ground, as babies sometimes do, I do a bit of groundwork. If she doesn't want to trot under saddle, I'm going to make her **** trot UNDER SADDLE. Groundwork will not solve or prevent ALL your problems under saddle. Period. And it is foolish to think otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Nickelodeon did you not read the second part of that qoute? the bit that where the OP said:


> Please.. please... do not climb on a strange horse, until you... yes you... not your trainer etc. but you.. have done quite a lot of ground work with your new horse..


We've all come to the conclusion that the OP is a smug person. I've put him on my ignore list as I no longer want to read what ever twaddle is coming from him next.

Personaly no amount of ground work is going to stop a horse reacting when a bird scarer hidden in a scarecrow goes off less than 6ft from where you are cantering (sounds like a cannon going off and lots of smoke), what matters is how you cope with the reaction you get. 
When this happened to me Reeco's heart could be felt through my saddle, I felt him bunch up so put him on a tight circle instantly and waited for him to let go of his initial panic and started thinking again, I rode him towards it, sideways if I had to, let him sniff it, then I let him chew the scarecrow (he likes to investigate with his mouth) then we walked away.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

*What I am saying is that if you buy a good horse that is within your capabilities then there is no reason what so ever that you should have to do ground work.

*The above is sort of how I feel. I have ridden horses for close to 20 years and haven't learned how to do groundwork until a couple of years ago......and that was because my mare came pregnant and I had to learn how to train a foal. :shock:

But I never do groundwork on a "good" horse. I did get a couple of bad horses (purchased together and couldn't be seperated) that went down the road FAST. I don't think ground work would have cured them. Every other horse I have just ridden out their antics. I guess I have been blessed. 

I should also add that I have NEVER hired a trainer until the foal came into my life. Before that I just bought horses within my ability level. It's cheaper that way. I am always amazed by the amount of people with trainers on their payroll. They are wealthier than I!


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I guess I'm of the opinion that groundwork can be an opportunity to bond with my horse... rather than him just being a packmule to cart me around. *shrugs*

And I didn't see the "You, not your trainer" comment as being condescending/rude. Is it that far fetched to think that a trainer would do better on a horse (or "click" better with a particular horse) than their client??


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I guess I'm of the opinion that groundwork can be an opportunity to bond with my horse... rather than him just being a packmule to cart me around. *shrugs*
> 
> And I didn't see the "You, not your trainer" comment as being condescending/rude. Is it that far fetched to think that a trainer would do better on a horse (or "click" better with a particular horse) than their client??


Laugh. I can assure you, I have a very good bond with both my girls, and I didn't have to spend months on the ground to get it. I still stand in the pasture and love on them. I take my time to groom them. But when I want to ride, I get them ready to ride and get on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> Laugh. I can assure you, I have a very good bond with both my girls, and I didn't have to spend months on the ground to get it. I still stand in the pasture and love on them. I take my time to groom them. But when I want to ride, I get them ready to ride and get on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*deep breath*

*I am not talking about doing groundwork every single time with a horse you own and have owned for years.*

Any questions? 

Gawd I love the internet. People take what you write and interpret whatever they want out of it.

(Enter poster who will now quote bits and pieces of all my posts on this thread to prove that I feel every single horse needs months and months worth of groundwork and must be worked EVERY SINGLE TIME you ride.)

See? I've even made it easy. Just quote that last bit and leave off everything before "I feel." 

:lol:


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Look at you, taking what I wrote and interpreting it however you wanted to. I didn't think you were saying they must be worked every time you ride. But my point is still valid. Groundwork isn't the only way to get a good horse. Groundwork isn't going to solve all or even many of your under saddle problems. Groundwork isn't the only way to bond with your horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

None of my horses ever acted as if groundwork was fun. It was useful for teaching them certain things (such as obedience, that they don't get everything they want, and how to calm down quickly after getting spun up), but it isn't exactly what I would call bonding time.

Bonding comes with regular feeding, grooming, walking them on a lead for long times...and riding. I've only got three horses, but they all strongly prefer a rider on their back and a trail ahead of them to time on a lunge line or in a round pen. The little mustang was round penned badly, and he considers it torment time. Put a rider on his back and let him follow the other two horses thru the desert - THAT is relaxing to him.

I've been known to lead my spooky mare for 3 miles. We started at not much more than 100 yards before she would melt down, and worked our way up. Together. Bonding.

It was during those walks that I learned she considers some things cruel (turning circles) and other things fair (backing up). That is where I learned to read her so that I know the difference between "I don't want to" and "I'm scared". That is how she first learned that a blossoming Palo Verde tree isn't a threat, and that it is safe to follow me even past scary yellow blossoms! And yes, the first time we passed a blossoming Palo Verde, she melted...and then she melted again a week later when the blossoms came off.










The round pen was useful for teaching "Obey me". Long walks were and are good for teaching her "Trust me".


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

For the record, I consider time spent on lead part of "groundwork...." it's not just round penning them.

I once did some training on a friend's gelding and he HATED round penning. He just couldn't seem to get it. So, we skipped round penning. We did not, however, skip groundwork.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, I guess I should put in my two cents worth since everyone else has. If this point is redundant, please forgive me, I have only skimmed the replies. IMO, most horses for sale as general "pleasure" type horses have holes in their training. Most of the riders buying them certainly have holes in their training. 99% of the time this does NOT result in life threatening situations, as evidenced by the majority of posts in this forum. All the horses I currently own were purchased for less than $1000. Not one of them is a push button, finely tuned, bombproof saddle horse....all of them I consider perfectly safe for the average rider with average skills. I am constantly working on improving both their training and my riding. IMO, ground work is a valuable tool, but past a certain point does absolutely nothing to insure that a horse is safer under saddle. At some point, saddle training HAS to be done UNDER SADDLE.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*groundwork*



nikelodeon79 said:


> For the record, I consider time spent on lead part of "groundwork...." it's not just round penning them.
> 
> I once did some training on a friend's gelding and he HATED round penning. He just couldn't seem to get it. So, we skipped round penning. We did not, however, skip groundwork.


 I am from the UK so apart from the people who got sucked into the whole parelli type thing we dont do round penning as a part of our horses training. A lot of people do loose work in a menage type situation but its something that follows on from lunge rein work. I can't say that any of the hundreds of horses I've ridden and trained have suffered from a lack of it. My horses have always had to be safe to ride on busy roads and deal with farm traffic on narrow country lanes.
I have also never 'sacked a horse out' to anything - most UK people have never even heard of that word. My horses always have to learn to deal with stuff, I dont under expose them to anything. I have a radio blaring out in the barn, I have dogs roaming around, I empty shavings bags around their feet, take my coat off and on, bang buckets into their mangers, they all wear rugs/blankets etc. I have posted a video of one of my mares on the forum wrapped in a tarp - she had never seen a tarp in the context before and didn't blink an eye. Like Fayes horse she is a very excitable fizzy ride but unlike her horse never spooks - other than maybe the occasional 'ohh' and a tiny jump on the spot. The only time she 'lost it' was when we were attacked on a bridlepath by a herd of french cattle. She lost it because I paniced, if I'd stayed calm and relaxed so would she have done.
Horses need to have trust and confidence in a rider and the way you talk to them and handle them on the ground plays a huge part in that if you are able to maintain that same manner in the saddle. 
I had a mare that was boringly quiet with a capable confident rider but was dangerous if she sensed she had a nervous rider on board.
I have taken on rescue horses that needed 6 months to just put weight on and get healthy again and that was apart from trying to deal with their nervousness or confrontational attitude from god only knows what sort of abuse they'd suffered.
The OP may have been a bit widesweeping in his first post but I dont think he deserves all the dogs abuse that he's had hurled at him
Many years ago a horse dealer from Shropshire said to me 'My dear - there are more crooks in the horse world than in any other business - never trust any of them' I never have, you have to be a part of the horse world if you own a horse but its wise to tread carefully.
There are enough problem horses out there to keep the trainers, rescue centres and rehab. places busy and full and on the yards I worked on we always had a waiting list so something is wrong somewhere.
I dont care how people train their horses or what they do with them as long as the results are good, the horses are being cared for properly and they are honest in the way they sell them - if they ever do.
I honestly dont see what people are getting so fired up about. You dont agree with his methods - so what? Get over it and move on. Its not like he's suggesting you all saw your horses legs off at the knee to settle them down.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> I am from the UK so apart from the people who got sucked into the whole parelli type thing we dont do round penning as a part of our horses training.


I just wanted to point out that round penning has nothing to fo with parelli, people have been putting horses in the round pen way longer than PP has even been alive.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I , too , have not read every post here, so my addition is kind of a general one.

With regard to groundwork, it isn't a sure fire done deal that if ground work is done, a horse will be the better for it. It totally depends on the quality of the groundwork. Groundwork done poorly can just ruin a horse. Seen it many times. the Human thinks they are being a good owner and doing their groundwork diligently, just like they've been told to do. But, they are going through the motions and accepting responses from the horse that mearly build up ingrained bad habits.

So, ground work done poorly is perhaps worse than no ground work. If folks are going to do ground work, they should take lessons from a knowledgeable person , just as they need a trainer to learn correct riding. Not necessarily a ton of lessons, but quality instruction to be sure they are training in good habits, not bad ones.

ETA: I am a cautious rider who never gets on a horse without either doing some ground work or observing another person ride him. it's just common sense to me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*round penning*



myhorsesonador said:


> I just wanted to point out that round penning has nothing to fo with parelli, people have been putting horses in the round pen way longer than PP has even been alive.


 My point was that this whole style of working horses in a round pen was pretty much unheard of in the UK in general until people like Monty Roberts & Parelli introduced themselves to the UK horse scene. I wasnt giving PP the credit for 'inventing it'. As far as the UK goes I would imagine that its still not a training method used by many people over there since most feel that they got on very nicely without it. I would think it has a foundation in the western style of riding which has virtually no influence in the UK


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> My point was that this whole style of working horses in a round pen was pretty much unheard of in the UK in general until people like Monty Roberts & Parelli introduced themselves to the UK horse scene. I wasnt giving PP the credit for 'inventing it'. As far as the UK goes I would imagine that its still not a training method used by many people over there since most feel that they got on very nicely without it. I would think it has a foundation in the western style of riding which has virtually no influence in the UK


Oh ok, sorry, it looked like you were say that all of us americans that use a round pen are PP fallowers.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

bsms said:


> None of my horses ever acted as if groundwork was fun. It was useful for teaching them certain things (such as obedience, that they don't get everything they want, and how to calm down quickly after getting spun up), but it isn't exactly what I would call bonding time.
> 
> Bonding comes with regular feeding, grooming, walking them on a lead for long times...and riding. I've only got three horses, but they all strongly prefer a rider on their back and a trail ahead of them to time on a lunge line or in a round pen. The little mustang was round penned badly, and he considers it torment time. Put a rider on his back and let him follow the other two horses thru the desert - THAT is relaxing to him.
> 
> ...


Gorgeous pic love the scenery.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Canterbury is a cheeky ****** smiles lol He bites you in the **** just like a horsefly and then he is gone. Arguing amongst ourselves about groundwork is entertainmet for him smiles. Some people need to do lots of groundwork, myself included and some only a little to see where their horse is, and some none at all, they follow the road less traveled  

I'm not gonna lie I admire the heck out of people who get on horses without fear. I wanna be one ;0) but I was born this way ;-) I love watching someone with a great seat and quicksilver reflexes. 

We are all on here because we love horses.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

When I start a new horse, my aim at the end of the day so to speak is to achieve a well rounded safe fun riding horse, that has the knowledge from its training and repore to be able to *cope* with the great big outside world we ride in..

Some talked about round pens.... I dont have one or use one......

When a new horse arrives, I turn it out for a period, and in that time i basically introduce myself quietly by talking to it as I feed it hay, walk around touching and talking.. I do this on purpose so over a few months the horse has a little time to get used to me...

When I start a new horse I start with some ground work,, lead rope work... asking it to walk trot stop.back up stand, bend... 

I do this to see where the horse is at as I dont know this horses history..

Next as briefly explained earlier, I go thru a desensitising phase for a time with things that may be scary to it, all the time talking and reassuring 

The horse is saddled up and I will do some of the repeated work that was done on the ground on the horses back,, asking it to walk trot canter, stop, back up, turn, yeld..

This training phase is done to teach and consolidate my cues taught to a horse 

When I see a horse is working nicely, next is the big outside world desensitising phase..

I will saddle up and experienced horse and lead the new boy out road side riding, keeping my experienced horse between traffic and him...

I do this so the new horse can see the other is not phased by big scary log trucks tractors. motorbikes, etc etc..

I do this several times until I see the new boy is settling and is ok with this.
Next I will swap over, ride the new boy, lead the other... until the new boy is comfortable with what comes at him..

Then we start solo riding the new boy, and I over time expose him to anything and everything.. up steep banks back down, thru rivers up mountain sides cantering over the rolling hills..

All the time talking quietly and reassuring him as he develops...

After around a year, its amazing to see what I started with and what I have today...

I dont use any whips or spurs... I dont even own any... just gentle quiet repetitive, consistent, but persistent work...

Hope this may explain a little better what I do... this is only my way and for me it works well......!


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> Canterbury is a cheeky ****** smiles lol He bites you in the **** just like a horsefly and then he is gone. Arguing amongst ourselves about groundwork is entertainmet for him smiles. Some people need to do lots of groundwork, myself included and some only a little to see where their horse is, and some none at all, they follow the road less traveled
> 
> I'm not gonna lie I admire the heck out of people who get on horses without fear. I wanna be one ;0) but I was born this way ;-) I love watching someone with a great seat and quicksilver reflexes.
> 
> We are all on here because we love horses.


Hehehe.. you are a trick..(smilies)... life is for living...

I couldnt possibly comment on this post for fear of more pots and pans being thrown at the tree I am hiding behind in here..(smilies)


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> Hehehe.. you are a trick..(smilies)... life is for living...
> 
> I couldnt possibly comment on this post for fear of more pots and pans being thrown at the tree I am hiding behind in here..(smilies)


Absoulutely and completely you remind me of my own husband lmbo Once I realised that all the annoyances were washed away. You love the debate although your serious about what your talk about, you can't resist biting the hand that feeds you lol I have been desensitized to your type of personality lol


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## Joidigm (May 8, 2012)

This seems like a thread for a certain someone to toot his own horn and feel good about himself. Win for you. Lose for the 16 pages put into it. :rofl:


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> Absoulutely and completely you remind me of my own husband lmbo Once I realised that all the annoyances were washed away. You love the debate although your serious about what your talk about, you can't resist biting the hand that feeds you lol I have been desensitized to your type of personality lol


Smilies.. all my life I have this character problem.... I dont know why I was born standing out as different to the norm od society..

Yes I love a good debate..(as long as it doesnt get toooooooo serious...!)

And yes its been interesting to sit back and just read some of the other posts in my absense....opps.... I sort of feel I might have unintentionally opened a rather large can of worms..lol


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Joidigm said:


> This seems like a thread for a certain someone to toot his own horn and feel good about himself. Win for you. Lose for the 16 pages put into it. :rofl:


Perhaps... but perhaps not....!

I originally came to this site to ask advice on an American new style of horse Pack Saddle. but while in here started reading of some of the issues that folks have with their horse world..

In no way am I wanting to be a smart *** in here.. in no way am I wanting to **** folks off....

I posted for example this thread only as a safety warning....... for some of our horses are very good at not doing as we would like and some have learnt how to opt out of the riding by bucking its pilot off and running back to its paddock..

I have been in and around horses for almost 40 yrs now and in that time have had the odd hard lesson to cope with so with this knowledge hopefully some others can gain a bit of a short cut in getting on with their horse....

But it seems advice is shovelled out the door onto the poo pile..!

Its a free world we live in...some love to have the blinkers firmly attached to their head and blunder along in the dark..(smilies)

In my early days I used to think.. and did.. climb on anything and just ride it out like a man should........ I was blinkered as well....

But as many times as I got away with it I was bucked off and so.. sort of had to learn another way... as its not to fashionable to be on first name terms with the ambulance staff...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahh Bless your heart Canterbury, I wish you the best with your training and your unique outlook on life, I hope that works out well for you, and if your happy then I'm happy.

Sometimes people just don't respect a new and different perspective on life, but hey, if it works for you, then all is peachy keen:wink:


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Thank you Golden Horse.......( I would much rather address you by your name....)

Horsing around should be a fun and happy past time.....

In no way did I ever want to offend anyone in here or in life generally, I didnt know but seem to do things differently to other folks..

All my discussions in here, are based on *only* what I have experienced with horses....only one opinion......!

I need from my trekking horses a reliable safe, can go almost anywhere type of horse, from fully loaded with pack gear climbing at times over some high mountain passes and down the other side, to in spring, crossing some of our fairly deep rivers that are melted snow fed.. and all the trail in between..!

My horses trust me, and are reassured by my voice talking to them as they look at something scary, and together we overcome these things... the horse learns more trust....

One of our camps towards the end of last season,.... feed was short around one of the mountain huts and with Shae loose.. was grazing around half a mile away, I called out to him waving a brib carrot in the air.. he looked up and came cantering back up to the hut... thats trust... (and bribery..lol)

Never do I go on a trail ride without carrots..lol

These things take time... in not way a year earlier would I have let Shae off the lead rope at camp, he was'nt trust worthy enough... time is a great thing...

You may want a different style of training for your dressage or show jumping type horse....to me its firstly about getting on with your horse, it accepting you as its leader who will look after it and you not putting it in danger...

Folks, I wish each and everyone of you... fun and safe riding...(smilies)

IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE WOULD BE DOING IT..!

ps...... thank you to the *two individual people* who have both sent me rather nasty emails to my personal email address.....

I see my help in here is not welcome, this saddened me to read......!

Tony


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

stop bumping this thread


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> One of our camps towards the end of last season,.... feed was short around one of the mountain huts and with Shae loose.. was grazing around half a mile away, I called out to him waving a brib carrot in the air.. he looked up and came cantering back up to the hut... thats trust... (and bribery..lol)


99% of the time, my horse comes cantering to me. I don't treat my horse, ever. Heck I am trying to give ulcer meds at the moment and he is spitting out apples as he doesn't know what they are. He comes cantering when called because he likes me, wants to see me, trusts. 

I am the same person that in the other thread said I don't do any ground work with my horse. 



canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> ps...... thank you to the *two individual people* who have both sent me rather nasty emails to my personal email address.....
> 
> I see my help in here is not welcome, this saddened me to read......!
> 
> Tony


Chill out, in general. 

Any training advise is going to disagree with someone else's. Heck I can't go into the natural horsemanship section as I believe in whacking a kicking, biting horse. 

Secondly, you would do better to present information as 'in my experience', ' I have found this works for me' type wording rather than presenting as if you have all the answers. God like.


There are a lot of newer horse owners who come to this board. But there are a lot of life long trainers/owners who have worked through serious problems with horses. Just don't talk down to either of us, and you will be fine.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

canterburyhorsetrailrider said:


> ps...... thank you to the *two individual people* who have both sent me rather nasty emails to my personal email address.....
> 
> I see my help in here is not welcome, this saddened me to read......!
> 
> Tony


 
It saddens me, too, that members would chose to use your private email to express their dislike, disagreement or displeasure to you. That's just not nice , no how.

HOwever, Please do not bring back to the forum any outside drama that might be happening in your private email, which I assume was given out with your website. It's a shame that members here may have chosen to use your freely given website to bring nastiness there, but you will have to work it out with them there, now. Don't bring that issue back here with veiled comments like those you bolded.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm confused, not for the first time, negativity is not encouraged on the board, people with personal issues are advised to take it to PM, surely email is just one more step removed?

A freely shared email address will attract all sorts of spam mail, surely you just put it into junk and ignore it?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I mean if there is trouble happening in email, we dont' need to discuss it here.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I mean if there is trouble happening in email, we dont' need to discuss it here.


Its ok, I have not answered either, went in the delete and out.
folks are entitled to their opinion....

I love my horse world, its different to others... so what..!

We all have a shared love of horses.. I know I do.. they have a way for getting under my skin... yes a real bloke admiting his love of his horses..(smilies)


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Canterbury
A lot of us here on the forum will be unhappy to hear that you have received vindictive private messages. The HF is normally a friendly place and the members share a mutual love of horses.

Yes, there are some differences in opinion as to how to manage , even ride horses but mostly this is expressed in a positive but not aggressive mood.

I suggest you communicate with one of the moderators - who will tell you how to proceed. I hope very much that you will continue take part in the debates.

Remember an old English expression "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me". Of course the saying is not true but noone has yet worked out how to throw a stone over the internet.

With kindest regards
Barry G


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> stop bumping this thread


Bumping? No one is bumping

Christopher you can choose not to look if it annoys you.

.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

ALEX, ref Ulcers,

Have you found "Gastrogard" - it is an awfully expensive but the medecation worked very effectively for my mare. Once you have the ulcers under control, then management should keep them at bay.
Best of luck.

Barry


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> Canterbury
> A lot of us here on the forum will be unhappy to hear that you have received vindictive private messages.


I believe he said emails, and thinking about it unless the individuals shared their forum identities we don't even know that they are members here.

This forum is read by many people who are just browsing, and nothing to stop them responding to a person who has their email address linked to their profile. In that case the mods have no say in anything.

Tiny is right in that respect, emails are totally removed from anything here so it didn't need to be mentioned.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

ok so i got to about page 7 before i just decided to reply...


I have rescued in the past, my last was a 15 y/o mule who i bought out of an auction for $50. He was immaciated (he was a 1 or 2) and it took 5 months before he had gained enough to saddle. that was without him being too screwed up from his ordeal. Sometimes rescue horses take a while to get back on their feet, especially when they were REALLY wronged by people.
Where i boarded before we bought our farm, the people have a big paint stallion that was SOO tramatized by beatings and whatnot from previous owners that he will never be suitable for anything other than being a loved pasture pet. Hes a cuddle bug but as soon as you do something that reminds him of past indignities he. shuts. down. and heads to a corner of his stall..mind you this is several years later, and these people CODDLE this horse (he is so lucky he fell into these peoples path).

that all being said, i cant say i agree with doing a crum ton of ground work before getting on a strange horse, but then again i can usually tell by the horses demeanor pre saddling on how they will act. If i think i need to just in case, like if they are being grumpy/spooky about being saddled, then yes i will not hesitate, but usually its like a 10 minutes tops kinda thing. Now my mare pepper, if i havent ridden her in say a month, ill lung her a bit just to get her jollies out because sometimes she'll buck a little right after saddling.. and if shes being particularly pilley (sometimes its toward he end of the ride actually) , ill get off mid ride to do some "hey im boss, you better get your head out of your butt and listen to me" ground work, wich usually just involves me grumbling at her and making her move her feet.. always works with her.

I have had horses that you never had to do any ground work on, some that you have to do occasional, and some that it was nessesary every time- but i can tell you everytime i could tell what was needed long before ever getting the horse even saddle by how the horse was behaving.

As for horses for sale are usually bad, dangerous or whatever:

maybe in NZ this is a true statement, but here in 'murica- the horse market is a big steaming pile of poo... you can get a been there done that decently broke( knows leg cues ect) trail horse in the $200 to $1500 range..yes there are risks to be had in the the cheaper end of the speculum (money pits, 4 days younger than dirt, rideable and sane but really know NOTHING, not the best quality horse ect) but if you know what your looking for, there are nice horses to be had because people have lost their jobs or there is drought (like right now n the midwest) and hay is like coastline expensive ($10 small square mid quality alfalfa- absurd for this part of the country!))- people are dropping horses left and right.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Peppersgirl, and others - Canterburyhorsetrailrider was very misleading and misrepresented NZ horses there with his statement about the types of horses that are offered for sale.
*
I am from New Zealand and would like to put the record straight*

Generally in NZ horses and ponies that are for sale are being sold for a genuine reason, and are mostly sold by word of mouth, through Horse & Pony Magazine or from Trade Me. There are also a few very reputable horse Dealers who will bring on and sell horses for the owner - I am just about to have one of mine sold that way. 

They are sold for genuine reasons. Children have outgrown them in size or ability, child may want to concentrate on a specific discipline. Different horses for different levels of rider. I currently have a young horse for sale - nothing wrong with him at all - I breed the occaisional horse to sell on. 
Of course there are always some difficult horses on the market with some undesireble tendencies and buyers do need to be on their toes when looking and buying. I personally always like to see the horse ridden before I will ride it. Most sellers want to see the horse go to the right home so are usually honest and genuine. Those of us that are more horsewise than some know full well that the more sensitive the horse the more likely it's behavior will change with a new owner. I've refused to sell to some people because I know that their ability will not compliment the horse. I remember having a very big row with one lady who was determined that she would buy the horse and got most snotty when I told her I wouldn't sell it to her because she didn't ride well enough.

We don't often have horse auctions here in NZ - if we do they are likely to be at big stations (massive farms) or studs reducing their homebred stock. The odd private auction - training/schooling centres reducing numbers. There are TB auctions held around the country where the 'ready to run' horses come up and they often have older horses that have not proved themselves racing and are sold to become pleasure horses, one I had eventually ended up short listed for Olympic SJ and another sold to UK for eventing. I've bought from auction and had no problems with any of the horses I've bought.

Generally the problem horses find their way to people like Canterburyhorsetrailrider through word of mouth and are horses that have been bought by people who don't really know their actual ability on or around the horse and have ended up with problems. I've had a few that have come to the riding school - one wee pony a real treasure, but a bit smart on the ground - he'd obviously got his own way around children too often. Probably bought by a parent with little knowledge for a pony mad child.

NZ people are rather inclined to think that they can learn to ride without help (definately the case when I first arrived here 26yrs ago) there were very few riding schools around. These riders tend to go for the horses straight off the track as they are usually cheap. Often Standardbreds with no schooling. Not surprising that you get problems with a novice rider and an unschooled horse together. Now there are many more riding schools as the people living in urban areas are wanting to ride. Pony Club has also changed a great deal as it now has to cope with more riders without knowledgeable parents.

While I agree that some horses off the track need a few months out to get over being in training - I usually do it because most of them are so young that a few months just chilling and being a horse at grass helps them to grow, mature and enjoy life. The older Off the track will usually take from 6 - 8 weeks to bring on to sell on.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

I have read the above post and agree with quite a lot of it..

Several experiences thru our "Trade Me" Auctions of horses have left me on the side of caution...

Sure I agree there are any number of horses that are true to what is written about them in these auctions, However.....

When a horse is onsold not too long after a purchaser buys it, one should be cautious....

One should be cautious when a horses is for sale with the owner stating this riding horse has not been ridden for quite a long time... I ask myself why....?

Our horses, Tom , Zigs, Connor, Shae, Bracken, Red, have all been bought with previous owners having had difficulty with each and everyone...

All the above horses of ours have had problems to iron out..

Again with the risk of repeating myself.... when you buy a new horse, be careful.... A horse may work for one. but it wont necessarily work for you..

Next door, a girl bought a beautiful 16 hh Andalusian , she then bought a new saddle and bridle, climbed on and got about 1 kilometre away before it reared tipping her off the back and galloped back down the road, straight across a busy road and back to its paddock..
She asked me if I would go out riding next time with her.. yes... next time a car went past on a country road, the horse spun around sending her off again, and it high tailed back to its paddock..
This horse then sat in the paddock for several months..

I asked her if she would like some help..

I got on it, and just outside the gate, it had a bucking frenzie, I disengaged its hind quarters and it stopped.. we started out again and again it started... this is no horse for a learner..

He was a stubborn horse, jig jogging along there and back..
I rode this horse twice a week for several months, and next the girl wanted to sell it..

I had another friend with a good ability and she bought it..

Today this horse is still a handful, 

Are you seeing why I say.. be careful.....a horse that is not used to you can hurt you..!


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## justhorsinaround1 (Aug 26, 2012)

Not every horse has the same situation as a rescue. And i completely disagree that horses are put up for sale because they are unwanted, have problems or are a danger. Yes I know for sure some can be like that. But for just how many that are like that, there are that many that are wonderful horses.

Call me crazy but.. A year of just groundwork seems like overkill. I know you can never do 'too much' groundwork, but for a horse that just has some issues a few months and you should at least be starting undersaddle work. You can cover every inch of groundwork possible, and still have a monster under saddle. And not to mention - bolting, bucking, and all undersaddle issues can be helped but no fixed unless you work with them under the saddle!


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

faye said:


> We've all come to the conclusion that the OP is a smug person. I've put him on my ignore list as I no longer want to read what ever twaddle is coming from him next.


Smug. Condescending. Arrogant.

I started to write out a long post in answer to the OP, then decided it really wasn't worth my time and effort, quite a waste of resources. So I decided the above poster really said it all quite well!

Oh yeah, almost forgot, "smiles" all around.........


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> ALEX, ref Ulcers,
> 
> Have you found "Gastrogard" - it is an awfully expensive but the medecation worked very effectively for my mare. Once you have the ulcers under control, then management should keep them at bay.
> Best of luck.
> ...


Thanks Barry, I believe he has had them for some time, likely from when he raced - so I am not terribly concerned about the management issue. 

However I am having a real battle with the pills. He won't eat his feed with them in it, refuses apple sauce and apples. I am going to try to syringe them next. My wallet would really prefer for this to work rather than going to Gastrogard.


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider (Aug 7, 2012)

Silent one said:


> Smug. Condescending. Arrogant.
> 
> I started to write out a long post in answer to the OP, then decided it really wasn't worth my time and effort, quite a waste of resources. So I decided the above poster really said it all quite well!
> 
> Oh yeah, almost forgot, "smiles" all around.........


Smilies....All round alright..lol

Life is for living.....

Everyone is entitled to their own views..

I have *a whole string of well behaved, calm, and fun horses to ride*.....! I wonder why that is..?

How are your horses..? all calm and safe to ride.......? Seems from reading on here not really....!

Its spring almost here so near time to start preparing the boys for this seasons treks...

I am out of here.... enjoy your horses folks..love them and be kind...(smilies)..

Thank you to all the folks for your intercourse with horse issues..

Thank you also to the real trail folks who helps with references to my original reason for coming onto this site..

Cheers Folks.......Tony


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

My horses are all extremely well behaved, well trained, calm, and a pleasure to be around.

I won't go into anymore detail because I'm sure you would love to tell me how they aren't and how you could do it better.

I'm in the professional world. I've seen enough of the truly amazing horsemen to know the truly good ones aren't sitting on forums flaunting their abilities...They are out actually helping real clients. I'm just the apprentice with a laptop.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

A part of me wonders if this OP follows another horse "trainer" on youtube...wont mention any names. But am I the only one thinking it?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Alex -re the pills.
We mixed the pills up with sugar beet and even added a little treacle.

Sometimes we ground the pills down to a paste with a pestle & mortar
and then mixed them into sugar beet,

Sometimes I had to feed her with the 'mixture' by hand.
I always finished off with a couple of sliced up juicy pears

She had a sweet tooth my mare.

PS I am told that in the UK over 90% of active race horses have ulcers.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Barry, as ours seems to be a productive convo we may as well continue to derail the thread 

I have partly made my own issue with the pills as I don't treat my horse, only with praise and neck rubs. 
So honestly he didn't know what apples were when I tried my last assault on him. 










Of course he knows that I am coming to give him something nasty tasting, so would not cross the stream in his pasture to come to me. Leaving me to wade through, and lose a flip flop in the process. 

Apple juice is revolting. Apple sauce equally so. Apples themselves were tolerable until there was a pill in it. 

I've crushed the pills, hidden them in feed and treats all with the same lack of success. 

I don't believe treacle exists in the US, at least I have never seen it. My old mare would love treacle and lick it straight out of the can. 


The battle is not over yet, just paused while I regroup to outwit my horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*pills*



AlexS said:


> Barry, as ours seems to be a productive convo we may as well continue to derail the thread
> 
> I have partly made my own issue with the pills as I don't treat my horse, only with praise and neck rubs.
> So honestly he didn't know what apples were when I tried my last assault on him.
> ...


 My mare has a quarter of a previcox tablet daily for her arthritic type issues. I have found that if I cut a section off an apple and dig a hole in it to 'bury' the tablet in she will eat it no trouble. You might find that a dollop of molasses or honey on top of it will also help.
I've also mixed a concoction of honey or brown sugar and apple sauce with ground up tablet and syringed it into her mouth using an old wormer syringe.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> and syringed it into her mouth using an old wormer syringe.


Thanks Jaydee, that's my next attack strategy. I just need to get a syringe of some sort.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Similarities to a well loved trainer?*



Army wife said:


> A part of me wonders if this OP follows another horse "trainer" on youtube...wont mention any names. But am I the only one thinking it?


 I did wonder that too but I dont think so. he's just someone who is overly passionate about his methods and maybe too inclined to be all embracing with them and that makes for inflexibility.
Honestly I dont care how people train their horses if the end result is a good one as long as they dont use brute force and abuse to get there. You cant dictate and rubbish people for having their own ways - now that is how our 'favourite person' operates and I have no time for it & I think I've made myself very clear on that!!!.
I would never put an end date on training a horse though and a lot depends on the market you're selling it into - an experienced rider capable of taking it on to the next level or a total novice who wants an uncomplicated get on and go animal.
It does concern me that there are so many people out there buying 'blind', they must be so naive.
This is a comment I took straight from an article in the Horse & Hound (UK) where the various Racehorse Rehabilitation centres are voicing concerns about parents buying cheap TB's for young kids straight from sales or even less responsible yards. A rep from one well recognised centre said that they find that it usually takes no less than 6 months to retrain an OTTB to be a safe ride for an average rider, the shortest was 4 months and the longest they ever had was three & half years. These are experts in handling these type of horses. last year 11,972 TB's in the UK left racing - you have to wonder where they all ended up and with who.
I've bought loads of horses from sales but I've had as many bad ones as good ones, some I've sent straight back because you cant afford to spend the time to sort them out - its what all dealers do I'm afraid. Some I've spent a lot of time on because they seemed like it would pay off.
Even where sellers are honest people are stupid. We were at a sale yesterday where there were lots of good genuine horses & ponies that had been used at summer camps, the family running the sale had offered people the opportunity to go and try any of the horses over a period of several days before the sale and yet there was still one family wanting to buy a very pretty but green pony out of the ring for their total novice very young daughter that had played up ridden in the outdoor area and the owner wasn't willing to say it was suitable for her as it obviously wasnt
I think its a shame that a thread that could have been useful to highlight the dangers of buying unseen/untried by novices was taken right off course by so much 'bad mouthing'
Camelot auction, NJ Feedlot Horse Rescue Home
I wonder how many people have bought from this place thinking they were doing something good for some poor horse yet had no idea what they were getting into or how they could manage its problems or afford to keep it?
Please OP - I appreciate your sentiment but you have to be more tolerant of others opinions if you want to win friends and influence people on here & also know when to walk away from an argument - though at times you were visibly trying to raise the white flag so there is hope for you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*syringe*



AlexS said:


> Thanks Jaydee, that's my next attack strategy. I just need to get a syringe of some sort.


 We bought one from a store that sells horse and farm supplies but an empty paste worming thingy worked just as well - though the rat bag (I love her dearly) did spit it out all over me the first time so a good idea to have some treats on hand to shove in the mouth - I'm not a random cookie giver but seriously I will resort to them if it works.
If I could start my life over again I would take up ballet - has to be less stressful!!!!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

AlexS said:


> Barry, as ours seems to be a productive convo we may as well continue to derail the thread
> 
> I have partly made my own issue with the pills as I don't treat my horse, only with praise and neck rubs.
> So honestly he didn't know what apples were when I tried my last assault on him.
> ...


Maybe off topic...but my mare HATES apples...wont have anything to do with em...unless it's an apple granola bar


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Alex, we had an arab that wouldnt eat bute in any form, the only way we could get it down his throaght was a jam sandwich!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Oh my.. what a thread.. LOL
I bought all sorts of abused and misused horses and a few not when I was going to college (ah.. years ago). Most were partly ruined by ignorance and the rest by bad handling and cruel technique by less than knowledgeable individuals. Some of these horses were down right dangerous. 

Those that were supposed to be broke, I gave a go on after they settled in for a couple of days. This was not out in the wide open.. but in a small pen or arena and with a bit of caution. Not a few were lacking in steering and brakes and those were started over. Most were broke badly.. so giving them a second try at having a foundation was a smart thing. 

I treated them like unbroken 3 year olds and off we went. Never gave them a year off.. most were turned around in anywhere from 90-180 days. When turned around that had been well vetted and were solid in their foundation work.. often were starting more advanced maneuvers. 

I could only keep 2 horses at a time in those days.. and because this turning horses around business was also paying for college.. I could not fool around with the horse out on pasture for a year. 

Some were worse than others.. but I got them all figured out and turned around and resold to better places, better people, better homes and better lives as useful and reliable mounts.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I love how this thread continues to be an area for people to brag about how AWESOME they are for being able to train an abused horse without giving them time off.

I seem to recall saying that I wasn't giving the year off for ME, but instead for the HORSE, because I felt they deserved it.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nickelodeon, I didn't see anyone say how AWESOME they were for not giving a horse a year off.

If the animal actually needs that much time off, then sure, give it to them. Just saying that many of them don't need it, and actually blossom if put back into work instead of thrown out in a field to languish.

It's dependent on the animal and how they react to the situation, not what the _human_ thinks is best or 'less abusive'. Let the _animal _tell you whether it needs the time off.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Nickelodeon, I didn't see anyone say how AWESOME they were for not giving a horse a year off.
> 
> If the animal actually needs that much time off, then sure, give it to them. Just saying that many of them don't need it, and actually blossom if put back into work instead of thrown out in a field to languish.
> 
> It's dependent on the animal and how they react to the situation, not what the _human_ thinks is best or 'less abusive'. *Let the animal tell you whether it needs the time off.*


No one actually said it... it just really comes across that way.

I bolded your last sentence because it's a GREAT point. It's also why I don't understand why people keep coming onto this thread and talking about how they NEVER would give a year off. Unless they physically saw/worked with the particular horse, how can they judge what was the right thing to do?

I definitely agree that with some horses, a year off would NOT be a good thing. Some horses just love to work and are miserable when not worked. 

With others, though, there are physical and mental issues that need to be addressed before attempting a lot of intense training. When I say "a year off" I don't mean turning the horse loose in a field and never looking at them. Lots of training is done with little things like going for in hand walks, brushing, etc.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*time*



nikelodeon79 said:


> I love how this thread continues to be an area for people to brag about how AWESOME they are for being able to train an abused horse without giving them time off.
> 
> I seem to recall saying that I wasn't giving the year off for ME, but instead for the HORSE, because I felt they deserved it.


 I do have to agree that to do the job properly each horse has to be treated as an individual case because they all have different needs to be fixed and different health and mental issues that are totally separate from the actual riding & sometimes these thing have to be addressed before you can even think of getting on them.
Theres no way I could go and buy a problem horse from an auction or anywhere else and say ' This is going to take me X number of days to sort out to be safe & sound for an average rider. 
There are plenty of horses that you could spend a lifetime on and they wouldn't fit into that box anyway.
I've also bought loads of horses and ponies that were 100% on the ground, sweet natured, bombproof, good to clip, trailer, shoe etc but they were total nightmares under saddle. They could have taught Parelli how to write his books and then some.
I wouldn't confuse a rescue horse situation with just buying a horse in general thats being sold as OK to ride - if they seem Ok I have to get on them and test the water so to speak, I certainly wouldn't be suggesting that a novice rider do that though and though I have done it many times at auctions I wouldn't suggest that other people do the same. You should always see someone else ride the horse before you do and with sedatives so easily available I would recommend having a horse blood tested for dope and pain meds too.
The big issue here to me is that there are far too many total novices and average joes who may already keep a horse or lease horse on a yard under someone elses supervision or go for a ride lesson once a week - or even never at all, going out and getting horses on their own with no advice, vet checks, warranty and getting so far out of their depth they are going to drown pretty fast. If they're lucky they may keep them on a yard with a good trainer who can help but just as many are buying houses with a bit of land and making it up as they go along.
If you're lucky you get away with it, if you're not it could be a total disaster especially when you look at some of the hair brained Youtube advice churned out


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## ShezaCharmer (Mar 13, 2010)

I myself work at a trail riding stable and we rarely do groundwork with any of the horses that pass through there. We regularly get about five different horses each week and my boss will tell us to work with them right there and then once their feet have hit the ground coming out of the trailer. There is no fooling around. Either the horse works good or terribly and us workers have to figure it iout in about two hours. Not only is my butt on the line if something goes wrong or i misjudge a horse, but so is the novice riders who expect a fun relaxing trip through the woods. In my case groundwork isnt an option and respect must come from under saddle within hours. All the horses we get are the bottom of the totem pole and have many problems that need to be addressed quickly. 
On the other hand at my stable where i board my horse, everything is much slower and we will do the neccesary groundowrk with each horse but the point im trying to make is that there isnt always time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've given a horse 8 months off on two occasions. I was busy with other horses and felt they needed a reset. There is nothing wrong with giving a horse 6-12 months to feel like a new horse again. My objection was to the idea that most horses need this when sold, or that a buyer needed to ground work their horse extensively every time before riding. I think those long times off are an exception, not the rule.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

An emaciated/thin horse needs time to rest and recover but can still be brought in, groomed and taught ground manners.

A horse in light to good condition can get straight down to work

All get paddock time to play with their friends. I herd graze my horses - they are happier, they move around more and get the chance to be horses.

I DO NOT strip graze or graze in small areas - horses are wanderers and they need to be able to keep moving - their whole circulatory system relies on their ability to move around. Small areas = filled legs = excessive energy = bucked off rider. 

I also only hard feed when there is insufficient grass to meet work needs, when I do feed the horses get basic foods - oats, barley, hay, sugarbeet. Too many people are brainwashed by commercial advertising that their horse MUST be hardfed in order to survive. Composite feeds are a horses worst enemy - when will people realise this and stop buying in.

All the horses have free access to a composite mineral block 24/7

There have been the occaisional time when I've received a horse off the track that has mentally fried, and is anorexic as a result of being given steroid type additives. Coaxing these horses to eat is hard but they do get their heads down and graze.

Turning away for a year is a luxury only those with their own land of endless grazing available can afford - I have to pay per horse - so that horse has to get it's 'A int G' be worked, schooled and moved on.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Time off is great if you have the space and time and can afford it. I gave time off if one came in very thin and really needed groceries to work properly.. but other than that I did what I did. Sure ground work was part of it.. especially when I decided the best thing was to just retrain as if they never had been. I could never have afforded to lay up a horse for a year.

If you are doing stuff with horses for the fun of it and you have the $$ and the time.. heck.. give 'em time off if it floats your boat and helps the horse. OTOH if you cannot afford that, then you get them sorted out and go on. 

It really isn't rocket science.. as long as you are not abusing the beast or being unfair in your training you can do whatever you want to.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

ShezaCharmer said:


> I myself work at a trail riding stable and we rarely do groundwork with any of the horses that pass through there. We regularly get about five different horses each week and my boss will tell us to work with them right there and then once their feet have hit the ground coming out of the trailer. There is no fooling around. Either the horse works good or terribly and us workers have to figure it iout in about two hours. Not only is my butt on the line if something goes wrong or i misjudge a horse, but so is the novice riders who expect a fun relaxing trip through the woods. In my case groundwork isnt an option and respect must come from under saddle within hours. All the horses we get are the bottom of the totem pole and have many problems that need to be addressed quickly.
> On the other hand at my stable where i board my horse, everything is much slower and we will do the neccesary groundowrk with each horse but the point im trying to make is that there isnt always time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



When I was younger I worked at a riding stable too and we would ride the new horses in the evening. They would come in during the day and when the stabled closed we would hop on them and go out on the trails.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

ShezaCharmer said:


> I myself work at a trail riding stable and we rarely do groundwork with any of the horses that pass through there. We regularly get about five different horses each week and my boss will tell us to work with them right there and then once their feet have hit the ground coming out of the trailer. There is no fooling around. Either the horse works good or terribly and us workers have to figure it iout in about two hours. Not only is my butt on the line if something goes wrong or i misjudge a horse, but so is the novice riders who expect a fun relaxing trip through the woods. In my case groundwork isnt an option and respect must come from under saddle within hours. All the horses we get are the bottom of the totem pole and have many problems that need to be addressed quickly.


Sounds like an extremely irresponsible way to run a business and a good way for your employer to get themselves sued. 

I worked for a riding stable that was "outside the norm" for riding stables. We didn't leave horses saddled at all times in case guests showed up: we required advance reservations. Each horse would go out a maximum of three times per day and we would only go if it wasn't too hot. 

We got in new horses and they would be thoroughly evaluated (both from the ground and in the saddle) before we would ever DREAM of putting a guest on them. It was my job to ride the new horses out on actual trail rides and "act like a newbie" (sack of potatoes in the saddle, screaming loudly for no particular reason, etc.) to test the horse. Only after I'd had a few rides on the horse and we'd judged him safe (and it wasn't just MY decision, the stable owner would have the final say) would we put customers on him.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Sounds like an extremely irresponsible way to run a business and a good way for your employer to get themselves sued.
> 
> I worked for a riding stable that was "outside the norm" for riding stables. We didn't leave horses saddled at all times in case guests showed up: we required advance reservations. Each horse would go out a maximum of three times per day and we would only go if it wasn't too hot.
> 
> We got in new horses and they would be thoroughly evaluated (both from the ground and in the saddle) before we would ever DREAM of putting a guest on them. It was my job to ride the new horses out on actual trail rides and "act like a newbie" (sack of potatoes in the saddle, screaming loudly for no particular reason, etc.) to test the horse. Only after I'd had a few rides on the horse and we'd judged him safe (and it wasn't just MY decision, the stable owner would have the final say) would we put customers on him.



I wish our riding stable had been run that way. We only worked there because we felt so sorry for the horses and tried to do what we could to make their lives better. We saddled 150 horses every morning and we rarely had to wait for people to come riding there was usually a wait time. At least we would give the horses a break (if the boss wasn't around) when we could, if it was up to the boss they would just keep going out.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*trail horse*



nikelodeon79 said:


> Sounds like an extremely irresponsible way to run a business and a good way for your employer to get themselves sued.
> 
> I worked for a riding stable that was "outside the norm" for riding stables. We didn't leave horses saddled at all times in case guests showed up: we required advance reservations. Each horse would go out a maximum of three times per day and we would only go if it wasn't too hot.
> 
> We got in new horses and they would be thoroughly evaluated (both from the ground and in the saddle) before we would ever DREAM of putting a guest on them. It was my job to ride the new horses out on actual trail rides and "act like a newbie" (sack of potatoes in the saddle, screaming loudly for no particular reason, etc.) to test the horse. Only after I'd had a few rides on the horse and we'd judged him safe (and it wasn't just MY decision, the stable owner would have the final say) would we put customers on him.


 I would have been a nervous wreck taking inexperienced riders on horse like that - I dont mean your place. Surely a few accidents would have closed the place down under insurance & health & safety causes - maybe the UK is tighter than the US but safety issues on trekking and riding stables are huge there now and for good reason. 
We took a 13 hand pony on a loan with option to buy for a son when he was about 8 from a UK trekking centre that had been working all summer there, I got on it first in a menage and it had no clue what the aids/cues meant, couldn't turn or halt and threw a broncing fit when I tapped it lightly with a schooling whip - it just didn't mind having someone on its back & had no spook in it at all but all it knew how to do was follow another horse


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I would have been a nervous wreck taking inexperienced riders on horse like that - I dont mean your place. Surely a few accidents would have closed the place down under insurance & health & safety causes - maybe the UK is tighter than the US but safety issues on trekking and riding stables are huge there now and for good reason.
> We took a 13 hand pony on a loan with option to buy for a son when he was about 8 from a UK trekking centre that had been working all summer there, I got on it first in a menage and it had no clue what the aids/cues meant, couldn't turn or halt and threw a broncing fit when I tapped it lightly with a schooling whip - it just didn't mind having someone on its back & had no spook in it at all but all it knew how to do was follow another horse


I know numerous people who have been caught like that. There are plenty of trekking ponies advertised on buy and sell sites all the time as bombproof, but like you said all they know is to follow the one in front. 

Even my Bandit is an ex hunter... you can tell that he was obviously used by complete beginners to hunt and his mouth was like a rock. Being 16.2 I can just imagine the size of the riders sending him through ditches while yanking his mouth off and flopping about on his back . The chiro had to give him one heck of a going over when I first got him. Like that... hacking in company he's amazing - hacking alone, not so much. Likes to be in the middle of a crowd... which clearly he was in his hunting days.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*no training*



Maple said:


> I know numerous people who have been caught like that. There are plenty of trekking ponies advertised on buy and sell sites all the time as bombproof, but like you said all they know is to follow the one in front.
> 
> Even my Bandit is an ex hunter... you can tell that he was obviously used by complete beginners to hunt and his mouth was like a rock. Being 16.2 I can just imagine the size of the riders sending him through ditches while yanking his mouth off and flopping about on his back . The chiro had to give him one heck of a going over when I first got him. Like that... hacking in company he's amazing - hacking alone, not so much. Likes to be in the middle of a crowd... which clearly he was in his hunting days.


 You get a lot of that in Ireland especially - hirelings for tourists to have a days hunting - and it can be crazy over there. People must be mad to do it and so unfair for the horse too. A friend of mine had a new horse flip over and land on top of her out hunting when she asked it to stand and wait for someone she was with who was shutting a gate that was wired up, all it knew was to follow the crowd yet she was sold it as safe & experienced. She never rode again.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

jaydee said:


> You get a lot of that in Ireland especially - hirelings for tourists to have a days hunting - and it can be crazy over there. People must be mad to do it and so unfair for the horse too. A friend of mine had a new horse flip over and land on top of her out hunting when she asked it to stand and wait for someone she was with who was shutting a gate that was wired up, all it knew was to follow the crowd yet she was sold it as safe & experienced. She never rode again.


Horses get hired out every day of the week, epecially with the hunting ban in the UK. I'm not into hunting, and I'm not going to knock it as each to their own, but I do get very annoyed after a hunt when the horses are left standing in horseboxes while the riders head into the pub for several drinks. My thought would be to get my horse home, thank him for carrying me safely around the county, give him some dinner and a warm bed and THAN have a drink. Not leave him standing, sometimes, for hours. I've come across hunts where the riders can't even get on the flippin horse... yet it's got to carry this person across ditches and open land all the while having their mouths ripped apart. I'm sorry about your friend, suppose that's the risk we take.


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