# Saddle Breaking horses REALLY young........



## Bobthebuilder (Jan 8, 2012)

Well at the end of the day it is up to the rider.
Unfortunately the horse world becomes a very hostile place when opinions differ, sort of a 'My way or you're stupid' thing, which is a shame.
Personally I don't agree with backing horses before the age of 3, and jumping before the age of 5. 
Theres so much you can do in hand, I just don't see the rush to ride them. Theres also a lot of information about how and when horses mature out there, so I see no good reason to go against facts.
But, like said, it is ultimately up to the rider. As long as you're willing to take the consequences. Ie, care for the horse when it can't be ridden anymore.
But yeah, to each his own


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't break mine that young, but I will ride them around 2, whether it be a little before or a little after. I don't do and hard riding at that age, but i do walk/ trot/ arena work, and take on some easy trails
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Not only the physical aspect, but the mental. 

Sure I threw a saddle on my mare and sat on her as a two year old, but only just in the past year or so (she is 8) has she come into her own and been mentally ready for real training and not just playing around from day to day. I did not have her with me while I was away at college but did get to see her often enough to see the mental change. 

Was she physically ready? Yes. Mentally? I don't think so. She was just a late bloomer. 

My personal opinion with my horses being a hobby, they should be allowed to be horses in a herd for the first few years. I want my horse to be with me, sound, for 20 plus years, and there is no reason to push for that year sooner to ride. IMHO.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Money is a huge incentive to do things a person normally wouldn't do and a lot of trainers aren't going to say anything publically that may alienate any current or potential future clients.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Such a touchy subject ..

Many many many many ranches that raise ranch horses back their long yearlings, geld them, put them back in the pasture until they are 2 - 2 1/2 and then start riding them.

These horse go on to be USING horses, riding, penning, sorting, etc for many many many years of their lives .. and then teach young cowboys and cowgirls in their late teens and 20's.. 

These horses are not pampered... and WORK ... for years. Who am I to say that this is "wrong" ??

Having said that, I have an Arabian, and have been around Arabians and wouldn't consider backing at arab until 3 .. and then if they are mature enough.

I guess it depends on the breed, build, use, etc.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Lets start by saying a horse turns 2 on january 1st. And the fulurity is December the next year. So if they can break them at 18 months of age to light riding so they can start working the horses towards the futuritys sooner they have a better chance. But you hear these horses are old when they hit 10. But futuritys is where the money is.

Personally I wait to start mine till they are close to 24 months old.


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## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

Personally if I am still counting a horses age in months I will not be doing any real riding on them. I don't care how big they are at twelve months old it's still a baby to me. Just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it right. 

Sitting on them and maybe walking around a few minutes before two is ok. Some very light riding like walking and limited trotting is ok after two. Three is the youngest I would feel comfortable starting "real" riding like trotting for more than a few minutes and cantering. I'm not out to make money or win awards though. Personally I get just as much pleasure out of my horses doing ground work as saddle time so riding them is not a must for me.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Who said twelve months?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Did the article mention how many of these colts are crippled by the age of 5 or so because of the stresses on young joints?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I have no desire these days to push futurity horses. I started out that way and have the arthritic mare in my pasture to show for it, winning isn't that important to me anymore. I like to start mine as long 2's, slow & easy walk/a bit of trot through fall/winter and then start into more work as 3's in the spring. By the time spring rolls around they've got a great neck rein, understand leg pressure and have control over every part independently. Makes for an easy finish as 3 yo's.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Thought this was interesting.

I have a two year old. I might get on her a couple times, but I ride hard, and she wont be ready for that till 5, so why rush?


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

ive personally known several 6-8 year olds that were put down because of degenerative joint issues that vets believed were most likely from heavy use/training as young hroses. These horses competed in futurities at 2 years old and were ridden pretty hard as yearlings. I'd never do it to mine personally. 

I breed mares at 3 and break at 4. My stud colts dont start under saddle until a minimum of three years old.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

From what I have observed it seems to be somewhat cultural. 
It seems that Western riders start them at about 2. English at about 3. 

It's more common in England to wait until 4, at least in my experience.


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## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

texasgal said:


> Who said twelve months?


Nobody on this thread specifically but I have seen it both done in person and mentioned on here in another thread.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh, OK .. I thought I missed something...


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## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

Sorry about that. Sometimes I don't manage to type out everything that is going through my head.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Ugh, I couldn't imagine breaking a long yearling... there's so much training you can do with them at that stage that DOESN'T involve riding that will make their training just as good, if not better, once they mature. =/ I just don't see the point in breaking them down like that.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

I hate saying this, but I do personally know a person that started their baby undersaddle, at a w/t at about 14 months. Riding at a w/t, not just leading around. 

They started cantering the baby 3 months before it turned 2. Trail riding, arena work, you name it, pony has done it. And he's just turned 2 in May.

I don't think it's right. In fact, I think it's horrible. I don't even jump my 4 year old but twice a week, 3 or 4 times a day. He's mentally ready, but physically? I'm not taking the chance.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

that is your oppinion. but professionals have more experiance than us. If a horse is matured,which they can be with a very sertain amount of protein and excercize,then they can be rode lightly.if there knees are closed on the inside they are fne some horses mature at 4 some at 1. they know wat they are doing,especially if alot of them r doing it.


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## Journey (Apr 26, 2011)

A couple of the above posts said that they wouldn't back horses before the age of 3. What do you mean by that? Under saddle or in hand? 'Cause I recently taught my will be 2y/o in July to back in hand and she's quite good at it.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I'll admit that I've never worked with a young horse and so have never experienced the "when to ride" dilemma in real life.

However, I have been around horses that were constantly "broken" and ridden hard by the age of 2 (the horses from the summer camp I worked at for 4 years) and I can tell you that nothing about their attitudes or how sore their bodies constantly were by the time I was working with them (10-15yr olds) makes me want to condone riding a horse that young.
Those poor horses, the "oldest" one I have got to be around was 20 - lame as all get out and HATED humans. She looked about 30 and there was nothing about using her in our riding program that I really liked. She was super broke and a really easy ride, but at what price? Just carrying small (under 100lb) kids all day obviously made her tired and sore.
The 15yr olds were, as a group, unreliably sound and were constantly playing up because they stepped wrong/twisted something/etc and most of those horses had to be given a week off every couple of weeks if I wanted the kids riding them to survive. Swollen joints were par for the course and it was very unusual to have a horse that wasn't obviously in some sort of pain - joint pain or otherwise.
I just couldn't handle it anymore so that's why I'm not working there this summer, before anyone asks. 

Anyway, I think that if a person is able to accurately pick out the broke early horse from a group of 15 year old horses after seeing those horse interact with people and move around - you have a problem. 
The difference may not be in the lameness or not of the horse but there's just something about a horse that wasn't allowed to have a "childhood".
I liken it to teenage girls having babies or not. Sure, a 14 year old can get pregnant, keep her baby, and care for it as best she can, but, we all know the answer to this, how well is that young mom and her baby really going to fare in this world? That girl "lost" her teenage years when she was going to be truly developing who she is and what she stands for. Now, she's a mom and she stands for raising her child. She's going to have a hard time going to college and she might even have difficulty finishing high school. It's possible for her to do those things (just like it's possible for a horse that was broke early to end up fine) but it's going to be about a bazillion times harder for her.
A 2 year old (or younger) CAN be ridden but is it reeeaaalllllyyy the 100% best option for that baby?


For me, I like my horses old and sound. Take Lacey, for instance. She's 27 and still going strong. No lamenesses, never been injured - no swollen anything ever even though I ride her hard for her age, does get sore sometimes but reasonably so, still loves to run - runs around the pasture often, etc. Right now, the only thing changing Lacey's way of living is her failing eyesight. If she could see 100%, there'd be no telling her apart from a 10 year old. Depending on the 10 year old, you might even be tricked into thinking she's younger than the 10 year old!
She was started late, retired at 12ish for "behavioral issues", and only brought back at 23 when I got her. Now, I'm not saying that all horses should be retired at 12 to have active senior years (though I'm sure it helped us) but I think that breaking a horse at 4 or 5 is the key to creating a horse that'll do well as a senior horse.

That's just me though, I figure wait now to get ahead later. 
It probably depends on the person. I personally don't see the logic to it, but people sometimes seem to think 20-somethings are plugs and therefore don't want to ride them. In that case, I can see twisted logic in risking "using up" your horse young because if 15-19 is "the end" of when you want to be riding horse, why does it need to be riding sound after that?
I really don't like that logic because I adore old horses, but I can see that being reasonable in someone's mind. 

Just my thoughts.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm just a hobby rider, but personally, I believe in starting horses at 2 years if they are mature enough mentally and physically and getting a good walk, trot, and canter on them, then let them be a horse until their third year. That's basically when I did with my gelding and he's turned into a great horse.

Some horses, though, need a while longer. My stallion was nowhere near mentally or phyciall ready to ride when I got him at two and a half, but he was at three so I started him, and he's four now and still greenbroke, but well trained enough that I can let my youger family members on him and they walk, trot, and canter him.


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

I put a pony saddle on my yearling, (not really tighten) and walked her around (nobody in the saddle) and then as a 2 year I started sitting on her...


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I breed mares at 3 and break at 4. My stud colts dont start under saddle until a minimum of three years old.


Why whould you breed a mare before it is broke. You dont even know if it will be good enough to prove itself.
I start horses at 2, but wouldnt breed till 4.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

The Link I posted talks about the rate a young horses joints fuse. Everone is really focused on the knees, but a horses back fuses last(5+ years) and being horizontal takes alot of stress(noticed how many equine acupuncturists, massage therapists and chiro's are popping up for back problems??)

Also, ever wondered why hocks of performance horses need so many injections, etc to stay sound? the hock growth plates dont fuse untill 3-3.5.

The whole world is in a rush, we all just need to slow down.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Whelp. All I can say is that it's my horse, and it's my rules. 
Plus, if you are a light rider that doesn't bounce around like a sack of poh-tay-toes, it makes a world of difference.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Journey .. backing a horse in this text means "getting on their back" .. riding.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

horseandme said:


> that is your oppinion. but professionals have more experiance than us. If a horse is matured,which they can be with a very sertain amount of protein and excercize,then they can be rode lightly.if there knees are closed on the inside they are fne some horses mature at 4 some at 1. *they know wat they are doing,especially if alot of them r doing it*.


Yes, a lot of professionals do it because of the money involved. To show in futurities, the horse almost has to be started as a yearling.

And no, protein and overfeeding does NOTHING to mature a horse. If anything, this can create more problems with their joint development than help.

Personally, I think futurity competitions are the worst thing that has happened in the horse world. Sadly, even dressage is starting to push young horse competitions. 

Too much of a rush to produce "marketable" horses, in my opinion.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

horseandme said:


> they know wat they are doing,especially if alot of them r doing it.


It has nothing to do with 'a lot of them are doing it', so it must be okay. :?

Those types of professional trainers are in it for the *money*. They're NOT in it for the best interests of the animals in their care. 

Don't urinate on my leg and tell me it's raining; baby horses are baby horses regardless of nutrition, or when some 'professional' decides to put them under saddle in order to make as much money out of them as possible before they break down.

My TB is an ex-racer. I look _every day_ for signs of him breaking down due to him being trained to race so young, and he's only* 8 y/o*. Hopefully, since he was taken off the track at 5, he'll have a long, healthy life under my care.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have seen a lot long yearlings started and when done correctly it is no worse then what I have seen on horses who where started as 3+ years old. 

This is simply do to the fact that starting them that young the trainer is not felling pushed to get them ready. They spend A LOT more time just walking the horse and pushing the horses body around. This builds musle in the horse gets them fit gets them use to carrying weight. By the time they are into their 2 yo year and ready to get more into real work they are more fit and so on to do the work proplery. I would much rather have a horse started say in Dec of their yearling year and started slow like most good trainers will do then stay wait until they are well into their 2 yo year and then you have to push them a bit more to catch up. The people I see waithing until the horse is older just end up thinking the horse is ready to be pushed faster and at the end of the day they stay no more sound then the one started correctly as a long yearling early 2yo.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> They spend A LOT more time just walking the horse and pushing the horses body around. This builds musle in the horse gets them fit gets them use to carrying weight. By the time they are into their 2 yo year and ready to get more into real work they are more fit and so on to do the work proplery. I would much rather have a horse started say in Dec of their yearling year and started slow like most good trainers will do then stay wait until they are well into their 2 yo year and then you have to push them a bit more to catch up. The people I see waithing until the horse is older just end up thinking the horse is ready to be pushed faster and at the end of the day they stay no more sound then the one started correctly as a long yearling early 2yo.


 it seems logical a trainer who takes the time to get a horse in shape will have a sounder immature horse than one who condenses the same amount of training into a shorter period while the horse is still immature.

The issue (to me) is that people are putting immature horses into serious work. If a horse doesnt have all its joints fuse untill 5-6 years old, it stands to reason that the harder a horse is worked before that point, the more likely you are to have issues down the road.

I was just reading a cowboys life story, and the thing I really noticed was in his youth, they rounded up 5-6 year olds for rodeo, not two year olds and If they started the saddle horses at two, they made sure they were not put to hard work until 4 or 5.

Its every owners choice, what risks they take with the lives under their care.


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## xVannaIsLifex (Jun 21, 2012)

I started riding my horse when she was around a year and a half at a walk for a while and then moving onto a trot by the winter time. Right now, she is a little over 4 and I ride her w/t/c and I'm teaching her to barrel race. I also plan on beginning to break my other horse later this summer. He's only 15 months now. My vet said it was fine that I was riding them so young. I'm a light rider and never over work them so I don't see a problem with it.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

If the youngster is physically and mentally ready for some very light starting under saddle, and COMMONSENSE is used....I see no problem with it. My AQHA gelding was started at 2 and shown lightly....and he's 17 years old now, and still showing AQHA and has never taken a lame step in his life. So much for saying they all end up crippled and useless before they turn 10! I'm retiring him next month after the AQHA Regional Champ show simply because I have a 3 YO WP mare that will be ready to show this fall. 

As for futurities....you really don't see many 2 YO futurities at AQHA shows anymore except Congress. I haven't seen a 2 YO futurity at any of the AQHA shows I've gone to in over 5/6 years. You can't show a 2 YO under saddle until July 1st and even then, at the AQHA shows I go to....there are usually no 2 YO's in the WP classes...maybe as a warm up right before Congress in October.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> it seems logical a trainer who takes the time to get a horse in shape will have a sounder immature horse than one who condenses the same amount of training into a shorter period while the horse is still immature.
> 
> The issue (to me) is that people are putting immature horses into serious work. If a horse doesnt have all its joints fuse untill 5-6 years old, it stands to reason that the harder a horse is worked before that point, the more likely you are to have issues down the road.
> 
> ...


 
Again define hard work? Also are you sure those 5-6yo horses stayed sound any longer then a young horse started properly and slow? People seem to think b/c a horse is 5-6 they can just go out and push then to train them. They will try and fit everything we do in 2-3 years in 6 months. Which is better? Which horse is going to stay sound physically and mentaly longer?


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

The issue I see with some of it is that there is no solid way to track late age lameness and discomfort *strictly* to the age they are started. It is just as feasible, in my opinion, that a horse who is started at age 3 or even 4 or 5 for that matter, could end up with arthritis, stiffness in their back, weakness and general discomfort if they are ridden poorly all their life. 

I have been on my 2yo about three times, totaling less than 10 min in her life with a rider. I work her lightly in side reins about 3 days a week. When I say lightly, I mean that she spend only 3 or 4 minutes with the side reins attached and that covers going both directions and her lounge sessions are less than 20 minutes all told to protect her knees. I do a lot of in hand work, leading, line driving and exposing her to weird obstacles. I will not trot her under saddle until spring of her 3yo year and asking for canter will come as a result of her being mentally mature enough to handle it. I am guessing that will come close to the end of summer her 3yo year based on how she has learned up to this point. I find it hard to believe that this level of work and slow methodical conditioning is going to make my horse a cripple as some people have claimed.

Conversely, I personally know a horse who was not started until he was 5. However, from the first day, he was ridden with his head pulled up, hollowing his back and putting strain on his neck. There was no forward drive, no relaxation and certainly no concern for his top line. This horse was totally shot by the time he was 15. The poor guy was so arthritic he was unridable. He was put down at age 17 because the pain was so bad he became aggressive and dangerous.

I would LOVE to see a study done where a handful of trainers were given horses to start at different ages. The horses would need to be as similar in structure and temperament as possible so that the ONLY variable would be the age at which they were started. Track these horses over the course of 20 years and then determine what age would be optimal to start a horse for health and performance.


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## madeline97 (Jun 27, 2012)

I personally don't agree with it. There is so much groundwork and everything to do that it seems like there is plenty to keep a young horse busy until 3! If you think about it, teaching it to them early is better because it will be more natural the older they become. It's kind of like starting school in kindergarten so that kids have a "childhood" I guess hah, but thats just how i would relate it


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> 5-6yo horses stayed sound any longer then a young horse started properly and slow?


Not a fair comparison. Do I think a 5-6 year old started slowly the right way is more likely to stay sound longer than a yearling started the same way? Yes I do.



> *You first need to define serious work. When I have or I do it start a long yearling or early 2yo it is all walk and maybe a bit of troting.
> *


I didn't claim you were putting your horses into "serious work" But there are an aweful lot of people doing many disaplines where the horse is spinning, stopping, running, jumping(etc, all of which could be classified as "serious" work) and expected to be collected and ballanced while doing it as barely two year olds. 



> The issue I see with some of it is that there is no solid way to track late age lameness and discomfort *strictly* to the age they are started. It is just as feasible, in my opinion, that a horse who is started at age 3 or even 4 or 5 for that matter, could end up with arthritis, stiffness in their back, weakness and general discomfort if they are ridden poorly all their life.


They are living creatures. Conformation, feeding, type of work they are asked to do, age they are asked to do it, the way they are stabled all contribute to soundness. There is no way to conclusively track the cause of lameness, all we can do is do our best to prevent it.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Meh. You just have to be considerate of the horse.

I'm going to show my girl in yearling lungeline and yearling in-hand trail, and I know there's a lot of controversy over that too. But the trick is to train _smarter_, not harder. 

After getting conditioned from that kind of work, I would naturally want to hop on her back as soon as her knees have closed. There are other factors, but that is my main concern. Again, working smarter and laying down the fundamentals of softness. 

I would hope to show her in English pleasure at the end of her 2 year old year, if she's ready, because I feel the english style is her more natural gait. I would definitely wait until she is 3 before seriously grinding down the western pleasure gaits. Just because it would take more serious training. 

This has been done to every horse I've had, and they've all went on to long happy lives. Don't really have any opinion on the long yearling though, don't really see the need for it if I do lungeline already.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

madeline97 said:


> I personally don't agree with it. There is so much groundwork and everything to do that it seems like there is plenty to keep a young horse busy until 3!
> 
> *Really? Mine are board past a few hourse over a week of ground work. Once they get use to the saddle and bit and are moving and stopping on cue they start under saddle work. Most of what a horse needs to learn under saddle does not translate from ground work. *
> 
> If you think about it, teaching it to them early is better because it will be more natural the older they become. It's kind of like starting school in kindergarten so that kids have a "childhood" I guess hah, but thats just how i would relate it


 
Starting them early has a lot of advantages over starting them latter. Have seen it time and time again. Horses who become lame latter is life have many other problems out side of when they where started.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> Not a fair comparison. Do I think a 5-6 year old started slowly the right way is more likely to stay sound longer than a yearling started the same way? Yes I do.
> 
> * So you are going to take a 5-6 yo horse and spend the first 6 months at a walk trot? Then spend the next 2-3 months working up to the lope and doing all the work so slow that it would take 2 years before you really get them working correctly consistently and well then anouther 2-3 years before they are truely finished? By the time you have a truely finished horse it will be into its teens. That is a wast of a good horse. I have a lot of horses started at 2 or a bit before and some who where started at 5 or around that age. The older horse was not more sound into its 20's then the younger horses but the younger horses where much better trained even with the same training. They just pick it up better and faster. Better muscle memory.*
> 
> ...


 
Yes they are and just like any living thing instilling a work eithic young is so much better and easier then when they are older.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> *Really? Mine are board past a few hourse over a week of ground work. Once they get use to the saddle and bit and are moving and stopping on cue they start under saddle work. Most of what a horse needs to learn under saddle does not translate from ground work
> *


I disagree. Softness, flexiblility, trust, respect, Giving to preasure when asked can all be taught on the ground, and translate, in varying degrees, to under saddle work. I really don't see why you would need any more than "a few hours a week" though. Mine are kicked out to be horses the majority of the time.

Ground work bores me to tears, but I would rather build that relationship on the ground first.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> *You first need to define serious work. When I have or I do it start a long yearling or early 2yo it is all walk and maybe a bit of troting. *





> I didn't claim you were putting your horses into "serious work" But there are an aweful lot of people doing many disaplines where the horse is spinning, stopping, running, jumping(etc, all of which could be classified as "serious" work) and expected to be collected and ballanced while doing it as barely two year olds.
> *Well are you sure. You say spinning and stopping and that is a big thing reiners do and most reiners are started early their 2yo year so about 20-22 months of age.*


See, I'm not sure where you are going with this. First you say its walking and a bit of trotting when you start a 1.5-2 year old, then this last comment leads me to think you are spinning and doing stops on 20-22 month olds. Which is it?



> Yes they are and just like any living thing instilling a work eithic young is so much better and easier then when they are older.


True, but you would not make a child do an 8 hour shift as a professional cleaner to instill "work ethic", asking them to clean their room would be more appropriate. Similarly Asking an immature horse to do the work of an adult has no benifit(except satisfying impatient owners and/or making money) and can cause physical and mental issues.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> I disagree. Softness, flexiblility, trust, respect, Giving to preasure when asked can all be taught on the ground, and translate, in varying degrees, to under saddle work. *I really don't see why you would need any more than "a few hours a week" though. Mine are kicked out to be horses the majority of the time.*
> 
> Ground work bores me to tears, but I would rather build that relationship on the ground first.


I'm happy for you that you can "kick them out to be horses", most of us can't. 

If we want to do things with our horses daily, (you know, the reason we HAVE horses?) they get bored. There is only so much you can do from the ground before you run out of fresh new stuff to engage their minds. 

If the individual horse is physically and mentally ready, then there is no reason not to go on.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

^^ I love the bay roan in your avatar .. just sayin'.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I try and work with my 2 year old every day. But, I just can't sometimes. I have my 4 year old that needs work. My rope horse needs conditioning. My mom's 3 year old needs miles. There's a 6 year old out there that we want to sell soon, so she needs to be fine tuned. Theres another 2 year old that needs groundwork like... yesterday. And I'm the only one here that rides a horse or works with a horse because it needs time.

So what if I ride my 2 year old for 20 minutes 5 days out of the week? She'll have at least two months off right away, and then the whole winter.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

texasgal said:


> ^^ I love the bay roan in your avatar .. just sayin'.


Why, thank you!


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> I try and work with my 2 year old every day. But, I just can't sometimes. I have my 4 year old that needs work. My rope horse needs conditioning. My mom's 3 year old needs miles. There's a 6 year old out there that we want to sell soon, so she needs to be fine tuned. Theres another 2 year old that needs groundwork like... yesterday. And I'm the only one here that rides a horse or works with a horse because it needs time.
> 
> So what if I ride my 2 year old for 20 minutes 5 days out of the week? She'll have at least two months off right away, and then the whole winter.



I disagree, if you don't have time for them, then you should of not got them then. So you're saying if you hurt your 2 year,.for riding that much,it will be fine,cause it won't be rode all Winter? Thats stupid... sry. Thats not how it works. I started riding my horse Lolly at 2 years old,and I rode her about 2-3 times a week.. just LIGHT rides, some trotting and stuff,mostly walking,and bending,and backing.. then at about 2 and half I started on cantering and stuff. A 2 year old horse,does not need to be rode that much, they are not mature enough... it will hurt there back and knee's in the long run.. Now light riding they can handle.. And also make sure, they are good enough for it,my one horse I started at 2, the vet okayed, and she was filled out,and just good.. she matured fast, now I had a fillly ( I gave her away to some one) that I would not of started till she was 3....


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> I disagree. Softness, flexiblility, trust, respect, Giving to preasure when asked can all be taught on the ground, and translate, in varying degrees, to under saddle work. I really don't see why you would need any more than "a few hours a week" though. Mine are kicked out to be horses the majority of the time.
> 
> Ground work bores me to tears, but I would rather build that relationship on the ground first.


Working a horse only one or two days a week is like picking a 100 acre hayfield by hand. You just cant do it right. If your teaching a horse you have to stay with it. And do everything the same. You can only ground work them so long. 
I work my 2 year old 5 days a week. I took 1 week off to go on vacation and i could tell she had the time off. And if you think she dont like working she see my coming with a halter and she comes running, or gets mad when i take another horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> I disagree. Softness, flexiblility, trust, respect, Giving to preasure when asked can all be taught on the ground, and translate, in varying degrees, to under saddle work. I really don't see why you would need any more than "a few hours a week" though. Mine are kicked out to be horses the majority of the time.
> 
> Ground work bores me to tears, but I would rather build that relationship on the ground first.


Again my horses would be so board doing that much ground work. While I know you can teach some of these things and I do to some extent it does not take but a day or 2 to each these things well enough to start them under saddle. They learn most of this by the time they are weaned. They learn to give to pressure move their hips with just a touch give to presure and all the other things so they have already got all this stuff by the time they are 2. There is also a relationship. By the time they head to the trainers they have all the basics. No need for the trainer to spend a lot of time rehashing what has already been done.

Mine are also out enjoying life the majority of the time. At 2 they are only being worked including saddleing about 30 min. So they have 23 and a half hours to do what they want.


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> Working a horse only one or two days a week is like picking a 100 acre hayfield by hand. You just cant do it right. If your teaching a horse you have to stay with it. And do everything the same. You can only ground work them so long.
> I work my 2 year old 5 days a week. I took 1 week off to go on vacation and i could tell she had the time off. And if you think she dont like working she see my coming with a halter and she comes running, or gets mad when i take another horse.


Er, wrong... I rode my 2 year old about 2-3 days a week,and she is now almost 4 years old,and I want people wanting to buy her... She'll do anything I ask... I also did ground work with her too.


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

I had my two year old started at 23 months. That was March, and to-date he has had 7 rides, the last being a trail ride- which he thoroughly enjoyed. He will be having a few more rides, maybe a show, and then going out to pasture for the rest of the summer to grow up. He is mentally there, and has been okay'd for being started. In October he will be going to a breed show for under saddle classes (2-3 classes). 

He will not be pushed more than he can mentally or physically handle. I see nothing wrong with this.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> See, I'm not sure where you are going with this. First you say its walking and a bit of trotting when you start a 1.5-2 year old, then this last comment leads me to think you are spinning and doing stops on 20-22 month olds. Which is it?
> 
> *I think you need to re read what I was refering too. It was stated that some trainers do serious work like spinning and stoping. Which we do. However that dose not start until the horse is a bit older. The forst 4-5 or so months are spend working at the walk and trot and moving the horses body all over getting them soft not only in the face but body too.*
> 
> ...


Never said that the young horses are worked the same way an older horse is worked. The way a young 2yo is worked would be like getting a kid to clean his room. It is not going to be as clean as a teen or adults room might get but they are still doing the work. They are not just allowed to mess up the room and not clean it up.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I think there is no answer to the question. Each horse is different. What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for the other. Then there is the rider, again, all different. Then it depends on what you are going to do. My personal opinions may not be another persons opinions due to their experiences or circumstances. When it comes to money or sport, it is absolutely a money/ego thing at the expense of the horse. I think the horse's physical and mental maturity mean a lot in the equation. However, human desires/needs cloud that.

I will throw this out there, even though it may or may not have anything to do with this for some people......the human sport or ballet world. In ballet the ongoing arguement is when to start young girls 'en pointe' (to stand on their toes). The whole growth plate thing comes into play, even x-raying the feet to see if the plates have closed. Some pay attention to that, some don't and do what they want to do because of the strong desire to be en pointe either by student, teacher or parent. Does this mean that the child will grow up and have arthritis in her feet.....pretty sure. But is it from early pointe, simply the stresses from dancing or genetics? Same as for sports. The BIG difference here is that the horse doesn't have the choice U guess.....their fate is decided by the human.

I think it is wisest to be in tune with your horse to where you can make the best decisions for it. However, for some people it is not as personal as a life-long partner. For some it is sport or money.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

coltrule said:


> I disagree, if you don't have time for them, then you should of not got them then. So you're saying if you hurt your 2 year,.for riding that much,it will be fine,cause it won't be rode all Winter? Thats stupid... sry. Thats not how it works. I started riding my horse Lolly at 2 years old,and I rode her about 2-3 times a week.. just LIGHT rides, some trotting and stuff,mostly walking,and bending,and backing.. then at about 2 and half I started on cantering and stuff. A 2 year old horse,does not need to be rode that much, they are not mature enough... it will hurt there back and knee's in the long run.. Now light riding they can handle.. And also make sure, they are good enough for it,my one horse I started at 2, the vet okayed, and she was filled out,and just good.. she matured fast, now I had a fillly ( I gave her away to some one) that I would not of started till she was 3....


Obviously you didn't get what I was saying.
I have a lot of horses at home that need work. 
I have a lot of horses at work that need work.
And my 2 year old is one of them.
I'm getting my ACL reconstructed in a month.
I have things that need to be done soon.
As a result, I did a ton of groundwork with my 2 year old all Spring, got her giving to the bit, and backing up with it on the ground.
Then, I got on her. 
She only has five rides now because of the crappy weather.... and they've been no more than 20 minutes long. And guess what we do? Bending, bending, stopping, forward cues, moving her shoulder, moving her hiney, desensitizing to me and the ends of my reins touching her everywhere and a lot more.

I'm just saying that I can "push" her a bit (I'm not really pushing her at all... we've trotted twice), because she will be getting some time off to grow up (over winter.) But here you are calling ME stupid when you were working on cantering your horse when it was 2 and a half? When my horse is two and a half, it's going to be out in the big pasture being a horse. 
I dont consider canter work "light" riding, especially for youngsters.

You don't go around telling people on this forum that they shouldn't have their horses. It just doesn't end well. I am more than capable to handling all of my horses and others now that I'm done school for the summer. 

Maybe you should learn the whole story before speaking to me the way you did. 
Here are some good places to start.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/first-ride-127172/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/riding-my-2-year-old-5th-128625/


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I look at my horses as life-long partners. I want them to stay as sound as possible because I plan to keep them "forever." I know life may happen, but I truly intend to keep them until they (or I) die. 

But I think about the starting issue a lot as I am raising my first youngster. He is currently a 23 month old gelding. Raised him from birth. It's been quite the experience!

He does a TON of good things. He trailers, ties, good with his feet, bathes, clips, leads, saddles, round pens, etc. 

But he is also a spoiled and playful baby. I tried not to spoil him, and maybe it's partially due to imprinting, but he thinks of me as a giant play mate. Sure he "listens" but he also does things to irritate me, like nip at my clothing and get pushy when leading.

So I am torn. Spend more money on ground work training or wait until he's old enough to saddle break? And when should that be? Right now I'm planning on early next spring. But sometimes I pull my hair out and want to ship him off NOW. I have sat on him bareback. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to saddle break if he just had better manners. But I can't seem to accomplish that alone.

Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I just thought the Western Horseman article was interesting because I didn't know people started them as long yearlings.

My baby acts mentally like a big baby. I hope he achieves mental maturity at some point. He wants to do nothing but chew and play with everything. Even though he is 15.1, 1100 lbs. :shock:


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Obviously you didn't get what I was saying.
> I have a lot of horses at home that need work.
> I have a lot of horses at work that need work.
> And my 2 year old is one of them.
> ...


I'm sorry, I did misread it, I thought you meant, you was riding it hard now, and let it be all winter,so it should be fine. I did not say for you not to have you horse, I just said that if don't have the time I take care of them right (which I now know you are) then people should not have them. I hope you'll accept my apoligey.


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I look at my horses as life-long partners. I want them to stay as sound as possible because I plan to keep them "forever." I know life may happen, but I truly intend to keep them until they (or I) die.
> 
> But I think about the starting issue a lot as I am raising my first youngster. He is currently a 23 month old gelding. Raised him from birth. It's been quite the experience!
> 
> ...



If it was me, I would start him.. he is big enough, its time for the next level, no hard riding,just light...


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

> But he is also a spoiled and playful baby. I tried not to spoil him, and maybe it's partially due to imprinting, but he thinks of me as a giant play mate. Sure he "listens" but he also does things to irritate me, like nip at my clothing and get pushy when leading.
> 
> So I am torn. Spend more money on ground work training or wait until he's old enough to saddle break? And when should that be? Right now I'm planning on early next spring. But sometimes I pull my hair out and want to ship him off NOW. I have sat on him bareback. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to saddle break if he just had better manners. But I can't seem to accomplish that alone.
> 
> ...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

coltrule said:


> I'm sorry, I did misread it, I thought you meant, you was riding it hard now, and let it be all winter,so it should be fine. I did not say for you not to have you horse, I just said that if don't have the time I take care of them right (which I now know you are) then people should not have them. I hope you'll accept my apoligey.


That's alright. I just have to get defensive sometimes... these debate threads always need some drama. I was just letting you know I wasn't one of the people who ride the hide off of their 2 year olds to enter them in futurities in the fall. Heck... my 4 year old isn't even ready for a "futurity".


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> > But he is also a spoiled and playful baby. I tried not to spoil him, and maybe it's partially due to imprinting, but he thinks of me as a giant play mate. Sure he "listens" but he also does things to irritate me, like nip at my clothing and get pushy when leading.
> >
> > So I am torn. Spend more money on ground work training or wait until he's old enough to saddle break? And when should that be? Right now I'm planning on early next spring. But sometimes I pull my hair out and want to ship him off NOW. I have sat on him bareback. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to saddle break if he just had better manners. But I can't seem to accomplish that alone.
> >
> > ...


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I am in the boat with several other members here. I just dont look at my horse as anything but a baby until 3 years of age, both physically and mentally. My mare came to me at 3 years old, and just in a year between 3-4 she has mentally and physically matured so much that it is amazing to me. 

I mostly deal with Quarter Horses, and I just don't see the rush. When we've had young horses waiting to be broken out, we've had older horses we used to compete on or to ride, so it wasn't like there was ever damper on being able to ride.

I guess I can understand how some people do this as a career and are die hard about some futurities and such, but why do they have to be set at such a young age? (I also don't know anything about futurities, so I'm actually genuinely asking why they are set at such a young age).

I guess an owner/trainer just has to weigh out what's important to them. For me, I want to be 100% sure my horses have the best chance at growing and being ready mentally before being too excited about climbing on their backs because my horses are with me for life. They aren't a competition horse I want to be done with physically by age 10. I want them to be around, healthy, and happy for many years with me.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

Oldhorselady said:


> I think there is no answer to the question. Each horse is different. What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for the other. Then there is the rider, again, all different. Then it depends on what you are going to do. My personal opinions may not be another persons opinions due to their experiences or circumstances. When it comes to money or sport, it is absolutely a money/ego thing at the expense of the horse. I think the horse's physical and mental maturity mean a lot in the equation. However, human desires/needs cloud that.
> 
> I will throw this out there, even though it may or may not have anything to do with this for some people......the human sport or ballet world. In ballet the ongoing arguement is when to start young girls 'en pointe' (to stand on their toes). The whole growth plate thing comes into play, even x-raying the feet to see if the plates have closed. Some pay attention to that, some don't and do what they want to do because of the strong desire to be en pointe either by student, teacher or parent. Does this mean that the child will grow up and have arthritis in her feet.....pretty sure. But is it from early pointe, simply the stresses from dancing or genetics? Same as for sports. The BIG difference here is that the horse doesn't have the choice U guess.....their fate is decided by the human.
> 
> I think it is wisest to be in tune with your horse to where you can make the best decisions for it. However, for some people it is not as personal as a life-long partner. For some it is sport or money.



I think that is a FANTASTIC parallel. Even if the child can express their opinion, they are just as easy for adults to ignore sometimes. If there is pain, a horse will let you know. 

As for being in tune with your horse, that is absolutely the best way to judge it. My two year old does enjoy the ground work, but she is mentall ready to be doing more. Other horses I have worked with were just not mentally ready for a rider until they were much older. If you take it slow, keep the horses well being in mind at all times, don't over do it and listen to what your horse "tells" you, there is nothing wrong with getting on them a little bit when they are young.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

In our area, it's pretty standard to start a colt at two. I never had an issue with it until now. My Rain will be two years old tomorrow (happy early birthday baby girl!). When I look at her, I just can't imagine breaking her to saddle any time soon. She still looks too coltish to be ridden in any way. It has made for a bit of drama in our house, because my son in law said they always broke their horses to saddle as yearlings, so as far as he's concerned, we've wasted a year already. 

Fortunately for Rain, she's my horse, and son in law has no say in when she gets backed. Yes, she leads well (most of the time - she has a stubborn streak, just like her mother), stands like a champ for the farrier, we can put a saddle pad on her back and cinch it down, and she could care less. We have started working on improving her leading and giving to pressure- my daughter says it looks like we are dancing in the round pen, LOL. She flat refuses to load, so that will be our next major project.

I have no plans to saddle break her any time soon. I will re-think it when she's three - if she looks like she's ready. I also don't have a problem with waiting until she's four if that's what she needs.

I'm not knocking anyone who starts their youngsters early. It's not my business, and I don't really know enough about horses to be allowed an opinion on how young or old a horse should be before they are ridden. I just know that I don't think Rain is ready, yet, and I have the luxury of waiting until she is ready - both physically and mentally.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

coltrule said:


> Er, wrong... I rode my 2 year old about 2-3 days a week,and she is now almost 4 years old,and I want people wanting to buy her... She'll do anything I ask... I also did ground work with her too.


I dont thing im wrong. I try to have my horses to the point i can sell them at 2.5 to 3 years old to go to futuritys. 
You want to talk about 4 year olds. I just took mine out to the mountains very hard riding. Didnt make a bad step. And she only has 250 rides on her. She also has NCHA money and AQHA points.

Now lets talk about letting them sit. I have seen many horse that can go months without work. But i ride horses with alot of energy and It is not good to let them sit along time. And this fresh to starting training. Im only about 4 months into on 2 year old this year.
Ok now lets talk about older horses. Smart Little Lena, Have you heard of him?????? He couldnt sit more then one day or he would buck or something.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

coltrule said:


> I also agree with that, if he is nipping, and being pushy, he needs ground work... he has no respect for you.


Yeah, I know. But I seem unable to accomplish dominance on my own. I guess my dilemma is do I spend $550- $700 for a month of groundwork when that could be spent on saddle breaking in about 8 months. I'm not a rich girl, so I have to decide where the money would be best alloted. A month of ground work costs the same as a month of saddle breaking. 

I'm hoping that while getting him saddle broke his ground manners will also improve. Heck, if he is safe to ride I can handle him not leading perfectly and pop him if he tries to nip, which is what I do now. :-|


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> You don't go around telling people on this forum that they shouldn't have their horses. It just doesn't end well. I am more than capable to handling all of my horses and others now that I'm done school for the summer.


You have to realize QHriderKE. YOu always get people to think they know everything like this and well have to come on here and confront people and get them defensive. They dont argue the point they just go at the people making the point they dont like.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Yeah, I know. But I seem unable to accomplish dominance on my own. I guess my dilemma is do I spend $550- $700 for a month of groundwork when that could be spent on saddle breaking in about 8 months. I'm not a rich girl, so I have to decide where the money would be best alloted. A month of ground work costs the same as a month of saddle breaking.
> 
> I'm hoping that while getting him saddle broke his ground manners will also improve. Heck, if he is safe to ride I can handle him not leading perfectly and pop him if he tries to nip, which is what I do now. :-|


You are going to be very disappointed when your horse comes back ridable by the trainer, but not you because if you don't have the horses respect on the ground he will learn to not give it to you under saddle either. Then your money was wasted. Educate yourself with the never-ending plethera of knowledge out there and teach him manners and respect.....you may find you can even save your money later and saddle break yourself if you take your time and do it right.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

P.S. An unknowledgable human can even ruin a well trained horse if the horse doesn't have a leader or respect for the human.


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Yeah, I know. But I seem unable to accomplish dominance on my own. I guess my dilemma is do I spend $550- $700 for a month of groundwork when that could be spent on saddle breaking in about 8 months. I'm not a rich girl, so I have to decide where the money would be best alloted. A month of ground work costs the same as a month of saddle breaking.
> 
> I'm hoping that while getting him saddle broke his ground manners will also improve. Heck, if he is safe to ride I can handle him not leading perfectly and pop him if he tries to nip, which is what I do now. :-|



I understand,because I have no extra money to spend at all,but how do you buy groundwork? Check out Clinton Anderson's web site and watch some of his free TV shows... if you ever need help on ground work, we all would love to help


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> P.S. An unknowledgable human can even ruin a well trained horse if the horse doesn't have a leader or respect for the human.


 AGREED, I was watching CA work with her a horse today.. ( TV show) And she had a great horse,but she thought it was bad,she could not bridle it, or get on it without it moving, it took CA to get the bridle on ,with him on 2 knee's on the ground, the horse was great.. he got on it just fine, the owner was pulling on the saddle to get up,it was hurting the horses back... so owners fauilt.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

coltrule said:


> AGREED, I was watching CA work with her a horse today.. ( TV show) And she had a great horse,but she thought it was bad,she could not bridle it, or get on it without it moving, it took CA to get the bridle on ,with him on 2 knee's on the ground, the horse was great.. he got on it just fine, the owner was pulling on the saddle to get up,it was hurting the horses back... so owners fauilt.


Watched that one too! There are sooooo many ways to obtain information these days. There are no excuses for ignorance......books, videos, RFDTV, seminars, forums, Youtube.......

Even spending money on a trainer is no guarantee that you won't end up with a pasture pet if you don't educate yourself enough to build a relationship with the horse with you as the leader.:?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Oldhorselady said:


> You are going to be very disappointed when your horse comes back ridable by the trainer, but not you because if you don't have the horses respect on the ground he will learn to not give it to you under saddle either. Then your money was wasted. Educate yourself with the never-ending plethera of knowledge out there and teach him manners and respect.....you may find you can even save your money later and saddle break yourself if you take your time and do it right.


You don't know all the effort I put into this horse. He is my life. Short of beating the crap out of him, I don't know what else to do. He finds it humorous do naughty things. He knows he will get punished and he does it anyway. So short of beating him up, I don't know what else to do. I already carry a whip most of the time I work with him so I can back up what I say. 

I have had trainers work with me and him twice. So short of sending him out for a month of groundwork I don't know what to do. 

I am confident I can handle him under saddle if he is even 1/2 way broke. I have had horses for 18 years. This is just the first (and last) foal I have ever had to train. 

My adult horses don't walk all over me, they are soft and well trained. I think the baby and I are just TOO familiar with each other.

So you think it's hopeless and I should just give up now?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

coltrule said:


> I understand,because I have no extra money to spend at all,but how do you buy groundwork? Check out Clinton Anderson's web site and watch some of his free TV shows... if you ever need help on ground work, we all would love to help


I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> You don't know all the effort I put into this horse. He is my life. Short of beating the crap out of him, I don't know what else to do. He finds it humorous do naughty things. He knows he will get punished and he does it anyway. So short of beating him up, I don't know what else to do. I already carry a whip most of the time I work with him so I can back up what I say.
> 
> I have had trainers work with me and him twice. So short of sending him out for a month of groundwork I don't know what to do.
> 
> ...


Using a whip as a weapon or beating a horse or always being mad at him is acting like a predator.....he is probably thinking it is a challenge and retaliating. I don't know your horse so I can't remedy the situation. I don't like giving up on any horse. You have a more challenging personality of a horse it sounds like so you must be firm, but fair. Put the pressure on at the right time and release the pressure at the right time. Being with a youngster may make you softer and baby him because he is young....but this is where you are going wrong if it is the case. You don't have to be mean or abusive to get the point across, but you have to be firm, patient, consistent and mean what you say. If you release the pressure and give up before you get the result you are asking for, you will only make things worse.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


I wouldn't say you are screwed....it depends on the horse you are dealing with. However, if he is a strong-willed type, it will be hard for you if you don't educate yourself.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


 
You are right Get a trainer that has dont this before. If they have been training for many years they may have had this problem before, get it and fix your horse and show you how to work with it. Trainers are not as scary as everyone here thinks. They have dealt with many horses and have seen many problems and know how to work through problems. It sounds like you know what your doing. Some colts can be crazy, and help may make your colt way better.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I unserstand how you feel. I have my first youngster. I love her, she is like my little huggie pookie bear. Want nothing but kisses and hugs and fluffy fluff stuff. However, even as nice of a horse she is, she is still and still a horse who needs leadership. She is trying to establish herself, as a normal youngster does, within the herd of her and I at times. Have to swallow those pookie doo feelings and be firm. Biting is never tolerated, kicking pushing.....never. Lessons are constant not just in the roundpen. I am always testing her to keep her guessing what I am going to do and pay attention. You can do it, just need to learn the language.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


If you feel really stuck and dont think videos will help, I would first see if You can go to a ground work clinic, then you would get some hands on help without the cost of a month of training, and you learn at the same time.

Otherwise, do the ground training, with a trainer that will show you exactly how to do it. I had a friend in the same "boat" that didn't get the instruction she needed and had a very hard time of it. Everyone learns differently, some people do better with hands on instruction.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

I didnt read everyones response. but I'm just going to put my two cents in on how I do things. I start putting the saddle and bridle on when they turn 1 -1 1/2, and lunge then around (with out rider) for a few mins and just let him get used to me putting everything on him I also use long reins to get him to know how to turn and stop. then when he turns 2 -2 1/2 I start light rideing mostly walking little trotting for bout 30 mins to an hour aday. thats how my dad taught me to do it.
I dont believe in rideing horses before they are two, I was told they can get sway back and have lots more problems down the road if you ride them before 2.


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## possumhollow (Apr 19, 2012)

In the Saddlebred world, one of the top breeding and training farms in the country started between 60 and 80 long yearlings and early 2 year olds for years. Not only started them, but they were sold at auction within 9 1/2 months ready to hit the show ring for the new owners.

My husband worked there for years and so did I. These horses were left to be horses for up to 2 years of age before they were all herded into the training barns, run into stalls and their 'education' began.

They were worked 6 days a week for 15 to 30 minutes at a time apiece. They were broke under saddle, wtc as well as some of them gaited, they were also broke to drive and did tons of work in harness.

The farm owner expected these horses to be polished and to be bringing in up to $300K within the 91/2 months. They were 'product' to her.

Having said that, you might think that this is how we break out our own personal horses. It isn't. Ours start ground driving at 2 and might be lightly backed a couple of times before winter IF they are mentally ready. If not, it's no biggie to let them sit the winter and see how they are doing the following spring. We take our time and don't want a blessed rodeo or damage to the animal.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I got Sun as a long yearling, sat on her once as a LY for a total of 10 seconds, was led around on her at a walk three times during her 2Y0 year, and she was started w/t at 3 1/2 and started cantering a month before she turned 4.

She's now a little over 4 with a nice w/t/c, great on the trail, and we pop over a crossrail or log every now and then. Works just fine for my horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Starting a youngster at the age of 2 is NOT a death sentence and it's silly to think that, IF the horse is ready to learn more. This will always be a hot button issue.....BUT horses are individuals and need to be treated as such. To make blanket statements that NO HORSE should be started at the age of 2, just doesn't hold water. Some are ready, some aren't...and I've owned both. My QH mare, totally not ready at age 2....but at that age she could do showmanship without a halter and lead. But for swinging a leg over? She was neither physically or mentally ready. She came from a certain line of Poco Bueno breds that were VERY VERY slow to mature mentally. BUT she wanted to keep her mind engaged and learning stuff. The QH gelding I mentioned earlier? He's the perfect example of a horse started at 2 and SHOWN at 2 and STILL showing at the age of 17. Like I said earlier...commonsense was used. There are a TON of them out there, showing late in life and started early.

Now the 3 YO QH filly I own, was started at 2....and her training has been going at HER speed mentally and physically. If she needs some downtime to "think" about what she's learned, we will do that. But so far she has not shown that, so her training will continue AT HER PACE. THIS is the commonsense I talk about.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

How would you guys describe a horse that is mentally not ready?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> How would you guys describe a horse that is mentally not ready?


Lack of focus and lack of memory retention. Horses learn by repetition...CONSISTENCY in your way of "asking" and the horse's ability to respond consistently. In the case of my mare, she was extremely busy minded, and youngsters have an attention span....some longer than others. Her attention span was short. So all training needed to be done in short spans of time...and QUITTING before she lost focus. My gelding, quite the opposite....he always had a work ethic and attention span that was eons long. The 3 YO WP prospect I have now, has the same type of focus and attention span, yet...she's going through a growth spurt....so physically, we are paying attention to that.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

I think breeding plays a BIG part in this debate. 

Remembering many breeds mature at a slower rate cold blooded breeds especially. 

As for me personally Ella is a wb and I wasn't getting on her till she could go from a gallop to halt to calm walk on the line. I needed her to cope with herself. Because of this method I had to wait.
In the mean time we did other groundwork extensively. 

The plan was to start her at 4 But she had an argument with a fence and lost!

She was started at 4y 9 months. First 3 months were w/t month 4 we started cross rails ( 30cm ish) at trot. Halfway through month 5 she started feeling ready for canter so popped a bit if leg on over a jump and got a beautiful canter.

We've started doin some work in a contact as well as a loose rein. Another 4 months and I'll look at mouthing her ready for Pre season hunts next year,

Her age has created a mature horse. Our second ride we got caught in a mini twister complete with flower pots and rocks smashing into us and I couldn't see her head. She stood. Stock still. A year before that would have ended badly. 

Of course not everyone should wait as long as I did. I'd prefer to start at 3.5-4 the method I use produces quiet horses so what of I have to wait a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Watched that one too! There are sooooo many ways to obtain information these days. There are no excuses for ignorance......books, videos, RFDTV, seminars, forums, Youtube.......
> 
> Even spending money on a trainer is no guarantee that you won't end up with a pasture pet if you don't educate yourself enough to build a relationship with the horse with you as the leader.:?



Exactly! I hate it when people say...oh I don't have the money to train the horse.. um... well why don't you get cheap books.. watch CA for free lol. I would LOVE to have his DVDs,but guess what I don't have the money lol :lol:


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


To be honest, I really don't think sending a horse to the trainer is that good for you, Go here Downunder Horsemanship TV And watch all of those... they will help.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This topic always amazes me....there just is not a definite answer.

Going back to Futurities, they did not end up like they were intended to be when they started, that is for sure. When the original Snaffle Bit Futurity was started, it was intended for showing the same horse and show his progression. For example, the first year you showed a horse in the snaffle or the hackamore, then the next year(if he was ready) you showed him in the two-rein, and finally the bridle, but all with the same horse. It wasn't started just to be a big money marketing deal, it was to showcase a horse and his progression in training.

Anyhow, not all trainers that show in futurities are big money mongers only thinking about fame and fortune, forgeting the welfare of the horses in the process. 
(Bob Loomis used to bring his babies in sack them out, turn out until next year, as two year olds they get started, then turned back out until they were ready to be rode) 
Some will start colts as two year olds put about 10 to 20 rides on them and make an assessment. The trainer will make a decision on which ones to go with that might make a futurity horse, some may get turned out again but may make a derby horse or culled completely.
HOWEVER, just because a horse is culled, doesn't mean that he goes to the kill pen or that he's not going to make a good horse. He just isn't ready mentally or physically. But will be great later on. Usually those horses end up being great horses for anyone, feedlot riders, ranch horses or pleasure riders. I know of a few "culls" that went on to be great barrel horses or whatever.

The situation differs if the trainer does not own the horse. The owner may have bred their own futurity prospect or bought one for the trainer to train for a futurity. I believe the trainer and owner must be realistic about the expectations. It costs thousands of dollars in training and entry fees to get to a futurity.You can't force a horse to be a winner. He must have the talent and love what he is doing. And just because he isn't prime futurity material doesn't mean he wont make a good derby horse or perfect for a owner to show.

So going back to starting two year olds, I have started a fair pile of two year olds in my career. I have yet to cripple one....knock on wood. It depnds so much on the colt and what he can handle, it is my responsibility to know those limitations. My sessions are very short. I do not spend a lot of time in a roundpen, it is boring for a smart horse and it makes them sticky. As soon as as I see an improvement, I get off. I do that with my older horses as well...no need to drill into the ground. Again they get bored and resentful. 


I have seen futurity horses that were started as two year olds go on to lead successful show careers, pack non pros around as well seasoned show ponies then retired as pleasure/trail horses with no problems. I have seen ranch horses started as 5 year olds crippled at 10. 
To say that one is better than the other is kinda ridiculous.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't think it's so much when you start a horse (if done sensibly) as dependent upon it's soundness through it's life as the nature of it's job. You use the horse as an athlete, it will probably has soundness/soreness issues, as most human athletes do. We deal with it, treat the symptoms and keep on in the sport. Some horses deal with soreness differently, some shut down & can't even stand to have a few hairs crossed under their saddle pad, while others like their sport & suck it up, just like humans. Obviously no one here is condoning running the snot out of a baby & jumping oxers, but how we train our athletes is a personal choice and for some trainers, it's a financial choice, it's how they make a living, whether we think it's ethical or not. If you feel racing yearlings is wrong, don't support it, don't go the track, don't watch the triple crown on tv and don't watch the movies about such horses, if everyone did that, you would see things change. Same with futuries, don't watch them or buy them or use the trainer, they will get the message. Pretty much your only power to change things.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

All I know is I want my horse to be able to be comfortable, happy, sound and still competing FEI dressage when it is 20+ years old and if that means I have to wait until it is a 3 y/o to sit on it, then I will happily wait. (Figuratively... since I don't own a youngster and purposely buy older horses to save myself the wait.)


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Putting a little dressage spin on it to go with IslandWave's post. 
In dressage we're starting to get a huge surge of popularity towards young horse classes. We have FEI 4, 5 and 6 year old tests. The 4 year olds are expected to perform a basic preliminary test, which certainly isn't out of reach for a late 4 year old. The 5 year olds are expected to ride between a novice/elementary, with counter canter, loops, walk-canter-walk and other similar movements. The 6 year olds are expected to perform a medium level test. 

Now, when you look at the young horses that are out there doing well in these young horse tests, give them a few years - where have they gone? Funny that the FEI horses tend to be those who did not compete or do so well in the young horse classes.
Some 4 year olds might well be ready for these classes, but most of the warmbloods are not. And many are pushed through before they really should be. 

My own youngster, now 20 months, looks hugely like a baby still, I can't even fathom getting on him at this age. I have no problem putting a roller or saddle on, mouthing him etc. But he won't feel the weight of a rider on his back until he is at least a late 2 year old and more likely into his 3 year old year. I have no great desire to show him in the young horse tests - I'm more interested in keeping him physically and mentally sound, keeping him happy and working at the pace he is ready for. 

So many horses are ruined along the path of trying to push them into young horse classes, they could be potential FEI horses, but have their brains blown before they turn 7. I don't want this for my youngster.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If you want some real data, talk to the likes of Deb Bennett or Sharon May-Davis!


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

I can add some input here, coming from a background of starting TB's and reiner's.
Now I just train my own ( and my very bestest friends...LOL)....horses.

Sophie is six, and wasnt started AT ALL. That was 31 days ago.

Because she has physical and mental maturity, she is learning at an amazing

rate.

Because she has physical and mental maturity, any problems that arise during

training, are harder and more dangerous for the rider (me) to fix.

I think working with a young horse periodically during it's formative years, with

lots of pasture time to build wind and limb, is ideal.

I will not give specifics, as this amount of time will vary from horse to horse

and from breed to breed. 

I do not think saddle breaking a 2 year old makes them lame, it did not

make my TWH lame, he has many, many miles on him.

But he was ridden just 30 days, walking and turned out until 3.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Putting a little dressage spin on it to go with IslandWave's post.
> In dressage we're starting to get a huge surge of popularity towards young horse classes. We have FEI 4, 5 and 6 year old tests. The 4 year olds are expected to perform a basic preliminary test, which certainly isn't out of reach for a late 4 year old. The 5 year olds are expected to ride between a novice/elementary, with counter canter, loops, walk-canter-walk and other similar movements. The 6 year olds are expected to perform a medium level test.
> 
> Now, when you look at the young horses that are out there doing well in these young horse tests, give them a few years - where have they gone? Funny that the FEI horses tend to be those who did not compete or do so well in the young horse classes.
> ...


 
While I uder stand what you are getting at and maybe it is the differeance in breeds or how they are trained as young horses. But Reiners also show FEI and all those horses who compet at that level where Futurity horses so started at 2. They do very well compet getter and better as they get older. Would be interesting to see what the difference is between the horses and how they are trained. B/C those basic test are very very easy in compairison.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Early hard work can reshape their bone structure. My OTTB had a discernable bow in his back cannon bones from racing at the "accepted" age of 2yo and 3yo. I'm betting you'll get similar stories from others who own off the track racehorses, TB's and others.
IMHO, young horses should be handled and worked with short, regular GROUND WORK. They should also have plenty of turnout with horses their own age, and a herd (minus stallions) so that they have free movement, beneficial to their Mental health, and the mares teach them respect and desensitize them to strange (to them) objects and noises.
You cannot go back and reshape their legs, or fix back injuries that start bc of early and physically demanding work like this.
I am Sure that this is a knee-jerk reaction to all of the dangerous spoiled brats out of the market right now.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I tend to think that the problem with OTTB has more to with the way they are being bred then being started at 2. Take a look at the lack of bone in many of them. Speed has taken over and to get that something has to go and in this case it has been bone.

If you say that that type of work or any hard work at 3 dose that to a well bred well conformed horse with good bone then you would be seeing this in more QH and you do not.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Corporal said:


> My OTTB had a discernable bow in his back cannon bones from racing at the "accepted" age of 2yo and 3yo.


You don't happen to have any pictures of his cannon bones handy, do you? 

The reason I ask is my gelding was born with a warped cannon bone. I'm sure they look different, but I would be curious what your horses cannon bones looked like.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

The reason I have an issue with horses being started young mostly stems from the race track I believe. I personally think racing 2 or 3 year olds is wrong and I see the results on a regular basis. TBs around here are a dime a dozen. I often see TBs that did very well in their careers, won their owners lots of money, and now they are 4 and lame or just crazy so are up for sale very cheap, sometimes free. That just makes me angry. 

I personally started the only horse I've ever raised as a 3 year old. We did tons of ground work with her before then and I definitely think horses can learn a great deal from that. She didn't start having longer rides till she was 4. Teaching her everything was so simple. It honestly felt like she already knew everything! No bucks, no bolting, and no spooking. Great stop and voice control. Very giving to pressure. And because she knew all that everything else was SO easy to teach her.

BUT... today at around 10 she's only ridden walk trot because a conformation flaw got the best of her...


I think wisdom needs to be used and horses not pushed beyond what is beneficial for them to do. At any age. 

And I think stabling young horses so they can't have freedom to move around 24/7 is less natural and far worse for their growing joints than reasonable work started younger.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> While I uder stand what you are getting at and maybe it is the differeance in breeds or how they are trained as young horses. But Reiners also show FEI and all those horses who compet at that level where Futurity horses so started at 2. They do very well compet getter and better as they get older. Would be interesting to see what the difference is between the horses and how they are trained. B/C those basic test are very very easy in compairison.


 As I said in my post, the 4 year old dressage horse classes are fairly easy for most 4 year olds, if they have been bought on quietly. The test itself is not difficult, just basic walk, trot and canter. HOWEVER, I attended the national young horse championships a little earlier in the year with my coach, who competed her 4 year old there. 
The 4 years that won, looked like 6-7 year olds. Short neck, bulging muscles, collection already established. One was dong 4-tempi changes in the warmup. As a FOUR year old. Now, I don't know about others, but to me, and in the descriptions of these classes which is not unlike a preliminary class - the horse should show simply that it is on the aids, in a fairly open, free frame, going kindly. Not cranked in looked like it's ready to go out and do a medium/advanced test. 

The 6 year olds are expected to perform a medium level test with SOME advanced movements. Changes, collection, extended paces, steep half pass, pirouettes etc. Now some 6 year olds may well be ready for this. But the pushing of the young horse classes is encouraging riders and breeders, to push horses hard and fast as young horses to reach this level ready for the young horse classes. 
The amount of youngsters you see absolutely blowing their brains at these competitions is interesting - the 4 year olds ridden in a nice open, free, forward moving frame seemed to be far more relaxed, than those jammed up looking ready and muscled for an advanced. 

Then you look at how many of the young horse class winners, that actually go on to compete in the Prix St George's and above. Not many. The 'young horse class' bred young horses, tend have have enormous, flashy paces but are very much mechanical with little if any swing through the back. 
We recently had an internationally competitive rider, in both Dressage and Eventing, who is also a serious breeder with a number of his own imported studs, come over to do some clinics, master classes and seminars. Interestingly, on his website he heavily promotes his fery flashy moving young horses as 'Hot Young Horse prospects' and puts huge money on them. 
He spoke about the difference in the horse ridden through the young horse tests, and those prepared for FEI, and noted that the ones he breeds with less flamboyant paces and more swing through the back, he keeps, trains himself, and sells as 8+ year olds training FEI. 
He never keeps the flashy young horse prospects. 

I guess its another case of horses for courses. Some people like the glory of the young horse classes. Others, like myself, prefer the enjoyment of training steadily and improving step by step as the horse is ready to progress. If my youngster isn't ready for young horse classes, thats no skin off my nose. I'd rather just play at home and take him out when he's ready to start at medium/advanced.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Again I under stand what you are saying and I think it is a differance between English type mind set and western type mind set. I say this b/c with reiners for example out 3yo futurity horses are running the same paterns and being scored the same way that the 4,5 and 6yo derby horses are, and they are doing the same as all the other horses regardless of age. So I am just trying to figure out why a horse would have a problem doing a lower level test and then keep going into a higher level test. Even though the maneuvers in reining do not have all the maneuvers has at the higher level of Dressage they do have all the same things you discribed. Change of pase lead changes and then you add in the stops turns and rollbacks and such. Not to mention what the horse dose at home to refine these maneuvers for the show. So again I am just trying to figure out why our futurity horses are still showing when they get to the FEI level and the younger dressage horses are not.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I think it is very much to do with how they are bred - as I said before. The young horse class horses, tend to be bred with enormous, flashy paces in mind with a back that doesn't swing. The horses bred to be superstars in the higher levels, are bred for good paces yes, but we also want swing and adjustability within the paces - not just going hell for leather in a big flashy trot constantly. 

Also, the nature of dressage training. It is something that is developed over many, many years. A dressage horse or indeed a warmblood, is not considered mature until at least 6-7 years of age. We want to work them gymnastically, developing each step of the training scale. Perfecting each step before progressing. It is very much a sport for the perfectionist. To develop enough strength and balance for a horse to perform a movement such as the piaffe, or passage - and perform it true to its description - lowered croup, hocks closer to the ground, low stepping hind legs, high stepping fore legs, remaining on the spot or very slight forward movement etc etc etc takes years upon years of careful and correct training. 
I believe the warmbloods are also less 'hardy' than your quarter horses - they seem to break down much more easily! As much as I hate to admit it, but warmbloods are not bred with hardiness and soundness in mind. Hence, we take things very, very, very cautiously to keep a horse sound at a high level into its teenage years.


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## HarleyWood (Oct 14, 2011)

i bought my moms horse last year and the guy said he turned three last month and broke him then and a month later hes home with me. he seems a little young yet.. to me he looks 3 to 3 and a half.. right now a year after we got him. so they could have broke him at 2 and then we got him i am going to have my horse dentist to look at his teeth to tell me but his teeth are really little yet and his ankles fused this winter and he still looks young.. ive been barrel racing him for 10 months now.. and working on jumping..


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Some soundness issues may have been caused by breeding/stabling in race horses, but the work they are asked to do under saddle at a young age is crazy. on the farm we have 
miss - arthritis in her back and front end, started at 2 on the track
cat - big boned gelding, started at 2, knees messed up by 3
raz - arthrisis, severe mental issues from over stabling at 7
S - Had to be put down at 8, arthritis, navicular

But if you want some western examples:
digger - Western pleasure, started at 2, hocks ruined by 4
Silver - Started for cutting at 2, severe arthris in the front end, hock issues, he's 11
Barn that trains for reigning and cattle work periodically runs 9-10 head throught the auction as "broke but sore". Started at 2, sold to the meat buyer so arthritic they could hardly walk at 5-7..

I'm not saying starting young is the only cause, but I think it definately contributes alot to young break downs. Young human athletes have similar problems when they compete too hard too young.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

For every 1 of those I can give you 1 started at 2 that are now in their teen and20s and are fine. Again how are those horses started? That and other factors including maintenance goes into a lot of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i also think there's a big difference between backing v. starting v. riding. i backed my QH at 16 mos. but he's not yet started, nor ridden. i backed my WB at 2.5 yrs, but he too is not yet started nor really ridden as his joints are very open still.

backing to accept weight (lean across, eventually sit on, maybe walk a few steps, get off) once every few months (as in a total 3-4x per YEAR) i have no issue with and i find with a more temperamental or opinionated horse it can definitely be beneficial to get them used to the concept of being sat on while they are still younger. fully STARTING (training to accept aids) takes far more time imo than 3-4x of sitting on the horse for under 3 minutes a year, and is something i feel should be reserved based on individual horse, their development, and maturity with a specific focus on their joints and growth plates.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Some soundness issues may have been caused by breeding/stabling in race horses, but the work they are asked to do under saddle at a young age is crazy. on the farm we have
> miss - arthritis in her back and front end, started at 2 on the track
> cat - big boned gelding, started at 2, knees messed up by 3
> raz - arthrisis, severe mental issues from over stabling at 7
> ...


In all of these examples....sounds to me like commonsense was NOT used. I could go through one of the barns I board at and do the same thing, for horses that weren't EVEN shown, started later, and the owners haven't done proper horse maintenance on their horses...because all horses ARE athletes and need maintenance.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

What does it mean to "back" a young horse?


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I think this is really sad.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

We rescued an appendix filly who is supposed to be 2-3 yo and she grew 4 inches in 3 months this spring. We are not riding her, just working on ground work and ponying. We have placed empty packsaddles and saddles on her, but that is it so far, and as long as she is still growing, we plan on waiting another year at least. And its tempting because she is such a SWEETIE!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> My Vital Valentine - 2 Year Old Western Pleasure Final - 2011 AQHA World Show - YouTube
> 
> I think this is really sad.


LOL, I'm having a hard time finding what is so sad about that.


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## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Question You see 2 ads:

"Nice horse for sale, Reg QH Mare 15.2 hands, 4 or 5 years old, not broke or started. Not Shown. Clips, loads, bathes. UTD on shots, coggins, and farrier. asking $5000"

"Nice horse for sale, Reg QH Mare 15.2 hands, 3 years old, Shown in QH shows at 2. Does very well in WP and can hold her own in HUS classes. 90 days professional training, still with trainer, you can also speak to them. Clips, loads, bathes. UTD on shots, coggins, and farrier. asking $5000"

Both are bred well. Both have decent conformation. Even say both will pass a PPE. A lot of you are saying you would pick the 4 or 5 year old over the 3 with training and show experience FOR THE SAME PRICE?

Just curious....


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> My Vital Valentine - 2 Year Old Western Pleasure Final - 2011 AQHA World Show - YouTube
> 
> I think this is really sad.


Yeah, I agree. Those horses are NOT walking, trotting OR loping. They look like they are afraid to take a step for fear of getting their face ripped off for actually MOVING!! Look at that poor grey, taking one tiny step at a time...shameful. And the lope...looks more like a bunny rabbit hopping along. :evil::evil:

I HATE what they have done to WP horses lately.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Futurities and young horse classes sometimes feel like watching "Toddlers and Tiaras"...


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

FaydesMom said:


> Yeah, I agree. Those horses are NOT walking, trotting OR loping. They look like they are afraid to take a step for fear of getting their face ripped off for actually MOVING!! Look at that poor grey, taking one tiny step at a time...shameful. And the lope...looks more like a bunny rabbit hopping along. :evil::evil:
> 
> I HATE what they have done to WP horses lately.


 
Guess you don't know WP horses much. They aren't afraid to move, they are bred to want to go slow. NONE of these horses looked intimidated in the face, they ALL look laid back and relax. That is what a good WP horse is! Ugh....I hate it when people look at something and think they have it figured out. I'd hate to have you look at my horse or watch a vid, because you would ASSUME I ripped his face off constantly and on a daily basis and you couldn't be farther from the truth. LOOK....these horses are bred with slow in the head and slow in the conformation. I guess, if their heads were up, backs hollow and they were running...it would be ok with you.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Definitely way late to this thread and I have not read anything but the first page so bear with me.

Anywho I will start colts are two. I mean sure if it's a little before that and I start getting them used to the saddle my 110lb self laying (not riding, laying) on them isn't going to hurt them. At two years old they start work, knowing what legs are, flexing and bending, etc. There is SO MUCH you can di with a two year old without even getting out of a slow trot. I don't work two year olds hard. I generally do all the leg work, walk/trot and a little brief canters. That way they are getting experience and geting in shape too. Then we just progress as the horse does at the colts pace.

Now I would not start an Arab, warmblood, or anything along those lines that young with work, but my paints and QHs are a totally differant breed. They are sound enough to learn at that age. I don't expect them to lope for hours or slide 30 feet, nor do I expect them to run the barrel pattern or jump... Just know how to move off my leg, frame up when I ask, and have a solid foundation. That does not take as big a toll as people think. The majority of the time we are at a walk learning these things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I absolutely agree. That horse looks in pain, and moves in pain. What that breed has become, so sad.


FaydesMom said:


> Yeah, I agree. Those horses are NOT walking, trotting OR loping. They look like they are afraid to take a step for fear of getting their face ripped off for actually MOVING!! Look at that poor grey, taking one tiny step at a time...shameful. And the lope...looks more like a bunny rabbit hopping along. :evil::evil:
> 
> I HATE what they have done to WP horses lately.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I am having an even harder what what is not. The horse is moving in pain, and only 2 years old, showing in WORLDS???? That horse must have been started VERY young to get to the level that they want them to be at, which is basically not letting them move naturally, just restricting their movement and forcing a horribly low headset. Those aren't even a true trot or canter, barely a walk, I couldn't even tell when he was walking VS trotting.
Poor guys 


GotaDunQH said:


> LOL, I'm having a hard time finding what is so sad about that.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

You are just pushing "QH ways" onto other people, those aren't even true speeds of the gaits! I only say that because that is not natural. 
ALL and I mean ALL QH/Paint riders I have seen have ripped on their face to get them that low. A low headset is good, not dragging on the ground. No horse naturally has that low of a headset. That horse is NOT relaxed. Just because he has a low headset and is moving slowly doesn't mean he is collected/relaxed.


GotaDunQH said:


> Guess you don't know WP horses much. They aren't afraid to move, they are bred to want to go slow. NONE of these horses looked intimidated in the face, they ALL look laid back and relax. That is what a good WP horse is! Ugh....I hate it when people look at something and think they have it figured out. I'd hate to have you look at my horse or watch a vid, because you would ASSUME I ripped his face off constantly and on a daily basis and you couldn't be farther from the truth. LOOK....these horses are bred with slow in the head and slow in the conformation. I guess, if their heads were up, backs hollow and they were running...it would be ok with you.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Totally with you there


Regula said:


> Futurities and young horse classes sometimes feel like watching "Toddlers and Tiaras"...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Whoa whoa WHOA. I have shown at APHA worlds and I ride rail classes still and I have NEVER once ripped on my horses face. I borrowed a really nice WP colt (Zips Chocolate Chip lines) and i can guarantee he NEVER got his face ripped on. Granted my rail class career was short lived as two shows and I did not show rail classes at worlds (I showed a halter colt back in the day before I discovered speed classes) but I spent almost all day watching those classes and the warmup pen included, and the majority of the people at he barn I work at show pleasure. 

You train the body, the head will naturally go into frame. For some horses it is lower than others. Now, however, it says in the rulebook that a correct headset and frame is with the head even with the whithers.

Do me a favor and stop taking stabs at other peoples sports. I don't show rail classes anymore nor was I a huge fan, but sayin that ALL people in the breed rip and yank on the faces is wrong and uneducated. Whatever you have been watching is incorrect training and must not have been anyone worth a penny. End of story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> I thought by hiring a trainer I was hiring the expertise of someone (hopefully) better at training horses than I am. I thought that's the way it was done. I know the trainer has to train me as much as the horse. But I thought that was a good thing. Now you guys are saying that if I can't get my act together without the help of a real live trainer I am screwed?


You're fine. Work with your trainer. Tell him/her what issues you have with the horse and go out when you can to learn from the trainer what you should be doing with your horse.

You're fine and doing a good thing.


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Guess you don't know WP horses much. They aren't afraid to move, they are bred to want to go slow. NONE of these horses looked intimidated in the face, they ALL look laid back and relax. That is what a good WP horse is! Ugh....I hate it when people look at something and think they have it figured out. I'd hate to have you look at my horse or watch a vid, because you would ASSUME I ripped his face off constantly and on a daily basis and you couldn't be farther from the truth. LOOK....these horses are bred with slow in the head and slow in the conformation. I guess, if their heads were up, backs hollow and they were running...it would be ok with you.


I DO know WP horses. Bred to move slow is one thing, 4 beating, hesitating to step and short striding and hopping isn't a "pleasure" to watch or ride. When you watch a class and see the "riders" looking to see if the judge is watching and jerking on faces when the judge has their back turned, that's not right. When the horse is hesitating to put it's foot down and take the next step, when the horse has to bunny hop to take the next lope stride because they have no momentum...yeah, bad stuff.

And with that, I'm done with this thread before I get in trouble with the moderators.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

All I ask is for people to stop making total stereotypes. I don't even show pleasure anymore and I am highly offended. That's like me saying all jumpers beat their horses to make them jump or all TWH people sore their horses, or all barrel horses are crazy. I'm done with this thread too, I can't handle listening to this total off set information feast.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

I must have been watching a different video.

Sorrel, I just roll my eyes and go on. The discipline bashing is annoying, but I look at the people who are doing it and get a chuckle.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The large majority of the time the head set of a horse is natural. It is now they are bred how they are built. Then you add in good correct training to get the horse to use themselves correctly and the head will go where it goes.

Here is a good example.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

GotaDunQH said:


> Guess you don't know WP horses much. They aren't afraid to move, they are bred to want to go slow.


Are they really though? I had a WP-bred horse out of Ready to Zip/ Dynamic Deluxe lines that moved like a normal horse. In fact, he enjoyed moving out quite quickly and we got places. He was smooth and easy to ride, but nothing I would have considered slow about him. 

I don't believe they are really bred for going slow. Their conformation may encourage a lower head set (I'm thinking carriage at or below the top line) but I believe most of the result you see in the WP ring is in the training. And I'm not saying the training is wrong. While I don't care for my horses to move that way, I doubt the training is any worse for them than many of the other disciplines out there. Just a different method and desire for a way to go.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Lopin N Paint said:


> Question You see 2 ads:
> 
> "Nice horse for sale, Reg QH Mare 15.2 hands, 4 or 5 years old, not broke or started. Not Shown. Clips, loads, bathes. UTD on shots, coggins, and farrier. asking $5000"
> 
> ...


Definitely the first, but I'm in it for horses, because I love horses. If I were in it for prestige & prizes, I'd probably think the second a better deal... & if I had that sort of money to spend on a horse & prizes mattered more, well I could just throw it away & get a new one when it broke.



> Futurities and young horse classes sometimes feel like watching "Toddlers and Tiaras"...


I can't watch:wink:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Cat said:


> Are they really though? I had a WP-bred horse out of Ready to Zip/ Dynamic Deluxe lines that moved like a normal horse. In fact, he enjoyed moving out quite quickly and we got places. He was smooth and easy to ride, but nothing I would have considered slow about him.
> 
> I don't believe they are really bred for going slow. Their conformation may encourage a lower head set (I'm thinking carriage at or below the top line) but I believe most of the result you see in the WP ring is in the training. And I'm not saying the training is wrong. While I don't care for my horses to move that way, I doubt the training is any worse for them than many of the other disciplines out there. Just a different method and desire for a way to go.


I guess you missed the part of my post that talked about mind-set. I can get my WP gelding to move out when I want...FCS, I can hand gallop him, but when I ask him to so go slow...there is no fight, he does it because he would rather go slow.

It appears that the majority of people complaining about the 2 YO vid, really do have no clue about WP at all, don't show WP, don't train WP, don't know how we breed them and so on. SO like Spurstop said...I'll just roll my eyes at the uneducated comments and move on.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

They are not uneducated, horses age 3 times as fast as humans (anyone correct me if I am wrong with this) so in human years that would be 6 years old.
Would you expect a 6 year old to train heavily for something? No, you wouldn't. They don't have the capability to stay concentrated, and do not have the capability to stay one way for a long period of time. 
With that, I am done 


GotaDunQH said:


> I guess you missed the part of my post that talked about mind-set. I can get my WP gelding to move out when I want...FCS, I can hand gallop him, but when I ask him to so go slow...there is no fight, he does it because he would rather go slow.
> 
> It appears that the majority of people complaining about the 2 YO vid, really do have no clue about WP at all, don't show WP, don't train WP, don't know how we breed them and so on. SO like Spurstop said...I'll just roll my eyes at the uneducated comments and move on.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> *They are not uneducated, horses age 3 times as fast as humans (anyone correct me if I am wrong with this) so in human years that would be 6 years old.*
> Would you expect a 6 year old to train heavily for something? No, you wouldn't. They don't have the capability to stay concentrated, and do not have the capability to stay one way for a long period of time.
> With that, I am done


And here, you have put every horse as the same....they are NOT COOKIE CUTTER! MY horse is not the exact same as YOUR horse....so don't say that they are! They have their own individual mindset, growth rates, attention span or lack there of, willingness or lack there of, conformation, suitability etc. Treat them as individuals because THAT is what they are. To think horses are cookie cutter and what applies to ONE, applies to all...is doing a HUGE and VAST dis-service to the horse.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes, horses are individuals. I do find mental maturity on horses varies wildly and some horses while physically mature enough to do things are not mentally mature enough or vise versa. 

When it comes to physical maturity the experts tend to agree that horses - no matter the breed - tend to mature at a relatively similar rate. Now a small horse like a pony will usually mature a bit faster than a really tall horse like a WB, but overall they are still within months of each other as to when plates close. 

So while they are individuals that does not mean one horse is going to be physically mature as a 2 year old while another not until 6. Do I think everyone should wait until the horse is fully mature before riding? No, but I do think a basic understanding of when maturity happens and plates close on a horse should be had before someone chooses when to start them and move up in the level of training. 

Sometimes I think there are those that think just because a horse is big and willing as a 18-24 month old it means its physically ready. The horse may be mentally ready which is a great time to introduce concepts on the ground to them, but it does not mean they are physically ready. Especially considering its the big ones that take longer to physically mature.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I have absolutely no issue with the way WP horses are trained, what they do, etc etc.

The walk and trot don't bother me in the slightest. But that lope? Ugh. It may be a pleasure to ride, but not to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

That video is a prime example of what I will NEVER seek of my horse. If that means we will never place in our home-grown backyard shows, so-be-it. My horse will always be encouraged to find his natural gait and balance. I'm perfectly capable of keeping up with him and prefer it.

It's almost as though they're trying to imitate or create another gaited breed.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

But your saying that 2 is an OK age to show, and that is a generalization. So you can't really say that because your doing it :rofl:


GotaDunQH said:


> And here, you have put every horse as the same....they are NOT COOKIE CUTTER! MY horse is not the exact same as YOUR horse....so don't say that they are! They have their own individual mindset, growth rates, attention span or lack there of, willingness or lack there of, conformation, suitability etc. Treat them as individuals because THAT is what they are. To think horses are cookie cutter and what applies to ONE, applies to all...is doing a HUGE and VAST dis-service to the horse.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

That video makes me sick, it looks like a bunch of crippled horses on their last leg trying to hobble along. If you want to break your horse at 2 then at least let them normally walk and trot not look like its going to fall over. Am I for breaking a horse at 2? Not really, there are a lot of other thing you can work on with such a young horse. Would I start a fight if someone is sitting on or lunging a horse that is 2? No.. But it does makes me wonder what they do to the horse so they are ready to show at the age of 2..


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> But your saying that 2 is an OK age to show, and that is a generalization. So you can't really say that because your doing it :rofl:


Where did I say that? If you read my posts, I said SOME HORSES are ready to be started at 2 and SOME aren't.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Casey02 said:


> *That video makes me sick, it looks like a bunch of crippled horses on their last leg trying to hobble along. If you want to break your horse at 2 then at least let them normally walk and trot not look like its going to fall over*. Am I for breaking a horse at 2? Not really, there are a lot of other thing you can work on with such a young horse. Would I start a fight if someone is sitting on or lunging a horse that is 2? No.. But it does makes me wonder what they do to the horse so they are ready to show at the age of 2..


You just aren't used to seeing really slow legged horses...everyone without WP experience says the same thing. It takes a talented horse with the right conformation to be able to move their legs that slow. Ready to show at the age of 2.....these ones aren't shown until the end of their 2 YO year. So they have most of the year with some under saddle time. And you can see by the vid, that MOST of these youngsters are far from being finished.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Your so right!!


Casey02 said:


> That video makes me sick, it looks like a bunch of crippled horses on their last leg trying to hobble along. If you want to break your horse at 2 then at least let them normally walk and trot not look like its going to fall over. Am I for breaking a horse at 2? Not really, there are a lot of other thing you can work on with such a young horse. Would I start a fight if someone is sitting on or lunging a horse that is 2? No.. But it does makes me wonder what they do to the horse so they are ready to show at the age of 2..


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> You just aren't used to seeing really slow legged horses...everyone without WP experience says the same thing. It takes a talented horse with the right conformation to be able to move their legs that slow. Ready to show at the age of 2.....these ones aren't shown until the end of their 2 YO year. So they have most of the year with some under saddle time. And you can see by the vid, that MOST of these youngsters are far from being finished.


Are these horses generally born earlier in the year too? So come time to show they are 2 and a bit?


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

My filly turned 2 in Feb. this year. I got her 5 weeks ago, many of you remember her - skinny little white girl named Ivy :lol:. She's picking up weight, filling out, and I am starting her now. 

By starting I mean, lunging until she accepts w/t/c calmly and with contact on the bit, saddling, backing her, teaching her to lead correctly at w/t and whoa... and we are moving onto ground driving. She clearly isn't ready to carry a rider yet, but can easily accept me sitting on her, getting her comfortable with the concept of a rider. Hopefully by the end of the year we will be walking and jogging serpentines, learning body control, etc, it just depends on her body and how she grows.

It is my humble opinion that a horse started slowly as a 2 year old and in accordance with what their body can handle is a much more eager study than a horse started as a 4 or 5 year old. In my experience more mature horses have decided their own way to approach things and you have to convince them otherwise. Easier to start a baby - you just have to do it right.

Here's a video from today of me backing Ivy - no pressure, no problems, she is totally confident with this...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree, but you haven't started riding her right? That is what I mean, your doing a great job with her 


Ace80908 said:


> My filly turned 2 in Feb. this year. I got her 5 weeks ago, many of you remember her - skinny little white girl named Ivy :lol:. She's picking up weight, filling out, and I am starting her now.
> 
> By starting I mean, lunging until she accepts w/t/c calmly and with contact on the bit, saddling, backing her, teaching her to lead correctly at w/t and whoa... and we are moving onto ground driving. She clearly isn't ready to carry a rider yet, but can easily accept me sitting on her, getting her comfortable with the concept of a rider. Hopefully by the end of the year we will be walking and jogging serpentines, learning body control, etc, it just depends on her body and how she grows.
> 
> ...


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> But your saying that 2 is an OK age to show, and that is a generalization. So you can't really say that because your doing it :rofl:


I have to say 2 is old enough to train. And 3 is old enough to show. Ill have my 2 year old on cattle and sorting when she is 3.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> You just aren't used to seeing really slow legged horses...everyone without WP experience says the same thing


Ok, I'm not one to pick on a particular disapline, but I don't like seeing horses moving unnaturally, what ever the disapline. You will never see a horse lope like those wp horses naturaly.

The only ones who understand a western pleasure horse and think they look great are those in the disapline?

I think that is an aweful lot of training to get a horse to the stage those horses are at, and alot of control they have to have, causing alot of joint stress. I wonder when his hocks will start giving him trouble? Or have they already?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Ok, I'm not one to pick on a particular disapline, but I don't like seeing horses moving unnaturally, what ever the disapline.* You will never see a horse lope like those wp horses naturaly.*
> 
> The only ones who understand a western pleasure horse and think they look great are those in the disapline?
> 
> I think that is an aweful lot of training to get a horse to the stage those horses are at, and alot of control they have to have, causing alot of joint stress. I wonder when his hocks will start giving him trouble? Or have they already?


The heck you don't! I don't know where you live, but go to my trainer's in Andover CT (I can give you the address) and watch my horse...lope in the paddock or being free longed. You WILL change your mind about your blanket statement.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> and watch my horse...lope in the paddock or being free longed. You WILL change your mind about your blanket statement.


I own a horse that is mostly pleasure bred, have ridden several and observed others, including a gelding that was trained and shown western pleasure. Not one of them ever did a lope in the pasture or free lunging even close to the one in the video. Slow, with a nice even top line, sure. like the horse in the video? Not even close.

I just dont understand a sport where the vast majority of people look at it and go "whats wrong with him" or "is he hurt".

As far as changing my mind, sure, give me enough evidence and I'm more than willing to change my oppinion, but as of this moment, all my experience thus far has told me otherwise.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow :rofl:

No horse at liberty goes that slow and uncomfortable


GotaDunQH said:


> The heck you don't! I don't know where you live, but go to my trainer's in Andover CT (I can give you the address) and watch my horse...lope in the paddock or being free longed. You WILL change your mind about your blanket statement.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Look at that walk-this disgusts me, poor guy


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't care who you are, I will never believe that any horse naturally walks like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I have never seen a horse whether it be western pleasure trained or not, go that slow on their own free will. That video is insane. That horse doesnt look happy at all. I hate to bash other people and how they like to ride but this is nuts. I cant believe how people now days breed their horses to act this way. I get western pleasure but why is that the horse has to look like its lame? Why can it be who ever has the nicest normal walk, the nicest normal trot and the nicest normal canter?


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Is it just me or does that lady look like she is going to fall off the back of her saddle


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## Shadow Puppet (Aug 15, 2011)

Well someone at my barn saddle broke a yearling, in the late winter of her yearling year and she seems to be fine? Personally I think breaking them young wouldn't do anything, just not heavily working or doing any jumping until they are completely mature. Although all she did was walking down the trail in the saddle. But more walk trot bareback stuff. I don't know but I don't think it's a Terrible thing to do as others might. Oh well...My opinion


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Why did a conversation about colt starting age turn into a WP thrashing thread? 
I can think of a lot more things done to horses that would be considered abuse or cruel to horses that are not WP. Western Pleasure may not be my class of choice, but neither is a pile of other disciplines....don't make it wrong.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Casey02 said:


> I have never seen a horse whether it be western pleasure trained or not, go that slow on their own free will. That video is insane. That horse doesnt look happy at all. I hate to bash other people and how they like to ride but this is nuts. I cant believe how people now days breed their horses to act this way. I get western pleasure but why is that the horse has to look like its lame? Why can it be who ever has the nicest normal walk, the nicest normal trot and the nicest normal canter?


This is just silly to me. Nothing about riding in any style is natural to a horse. Horse don't naturally jump fences or naturally passage. I do not ride WP but it is no different then any other style in that it is about control, collection, and partnership. Whether you are asking a horse to walk slowly, do a collected canter, or an extended trot. Unless you only showing in a liberty classes and don't ride at all, I don't see how you can call any style more unnatural then the another.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I got my 20 month old warmblood out this morning for a brush and a bit of a ground work tune up before I went to work. 
He looks so ridiculously young still, bum high, short back, no wither, enormous gaps in his knees.... I couldn't imagine even sitting on him for a minute let alone breaking him! He's very smart and eager to learn, and I'm sure some may think he's ready for basic breaking due to this.... personally, I would much rather be patient and wait for him to mature.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Warmbloods are very slow maturing horses. A QH, TB, or Arab may be ready at 2 while a Hanovarian is still growing even at 4 or 5. It's very breed specific. Still, I have never started a horse under saddle earlier then 2 and never felt the reason to.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

uflrh9y said:


> Warmbloods are very slow maturing horses. A QH, TB, or Arab may be ready at 2 while a Hanovarian is still growing even at 4 or 5. It's very breed specific. Still, I have never started a horse under saddle earlier then 2 and never felt the reason to.


 I'm well aware of that thank you - I was simply giving my own experience with a particular breed - as the QH people have with their horses.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Wow :rofl:
> 
> No horse at liberty goes that slow and uncomfortable


Hmmm....so I guess you are calling me a liar then? How nice.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Kayty said:


> I'm well aware of that thank you - I was simply giving my own experience with a particular breed - as the QH people have with their horses.


I apologize if you took my post as instructional directed at you. I didn't quote you so my intention wasn't to say you didn't know it. I just joined so I really don't know what anyone knows or doesn't know. If anything, I am just trying to prove to posters what I know because it seems like everyone here is very knowledgeable.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Nothing about riding in any style is natural to a horse. Horse don't naturally jump fences or naturally passage.


Yes, they do. They leap things, prance with necks arched, rear, flying lead changes, all in the pasture. 

Any who, I don't really care what things you want your horse to do, or how you make your horse move. There are several disaplines that have become so specialized that the majority of people outside the disapline look at it and go "what have they done to that horse?". That is what I dont understand. Especially when the horses are started at 1.5 so they can have months of training and be showing solidly by 2.5. I hate to see horses with physical problems so young all because people want their "sport".


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Saying a WP horse is not naturally show is like saying a reiner is not a natural stopper or a cutte does not natrually cut a cow. Yes we refine these things to give them a cue and enhance them but these are things that these horses are bred to to do and they do then naturally. If this was not so then ANY horse could be taught to slow lope like that will (not get into the walk b/c that is one that can be taught with little problems). That is why you can not tach a horse to do a 35 foot stop or cut a cow. Yes you can get them to stop or follow a cow to they will never be able to do it like one bred to to do it.

What you see is nothing more then a horse who does something naturally and enhancing it. Nothing more or less.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Yes, they do. They leap things, prance with necks arched, rear, flying lead changes, all in the pasture.
> 
> Any who, I don't really care what things you want your horse to do, or how you make your horse move. There are several disaplines that have become so specialized that the majority of people outside the disapline look at it and go "what have they done to that horse?". *That is what I dont understand. Especially when the horses are started at 1.5 so they can have months of training and be showing solidly by 2.5. I hate to see horses with physical problems so young all because people want their "sport*".


Because you don't WANT to understand. You simply want to sit there and pass uninformed judgement. The ignorance on this thread is a pretty sad commentary on the horse industry in general. 

Show me proof that all horses started at 1.5 years end up with physical problems at a young age. You put it out there, not prove it. Sure, if you don't use commonsense...you can have problems. The SAME problems with a horse started later in life...if you don't use commonsense.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> Yes, they do. They leap things, prance with necks arched, rear, flying lead changes, all in the pasture.
> 
> Any who, I don't really care what things you want your horse to do, or how you make your horse move. There are several disaplines that have become so specialized that the majority of people outside the disapline look at it and go "what have they done to that horse?". That is what I dont understand. Especially when the horses are started at 1.5 so they can have months of training and be showing solidly by 2.5. I hate to see horses with physical problems so young all because people want their "sport".


Yes I agree, leaping and prancing, etc. are all natural tings. But when you ride you are enhancing and exaggerating those natural tendencies and controlling them. No horse sees an obstacle course and on it's own jumps them in a pattern. That is my point. Does a horse slow jog around a pasture for the heck of it? Not often. Do they do a collected slow walk for no reason? Maybe not. But they do walk slow and they do jog and WP is just exaggerating their natural tendencies and conformation and showing the ability to control a horses movement and work as a team. Same as any other style. 

And every style has bad trainers and ruined horses.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm really tired of people claiming everyone else is ignorant just because of a difference of opinions.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Cat said:


> I'm really tired of people claiming everyone else is ignorant just because of a difference of opinions.


Opinions are one thing...CLAIMING to have it all figured out without ANY experience or knowledge to back it up...is ignorant.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

nrhareiner said:


> Saying a WP horse is not naturally show is like saying a reiner is not a natural stopper or a cutte does not natrually cut a cow. Yes we refine these things to give them a cue and enhance them but these are things that these horses are bred to to do and they do then naturally. If this was not so then ANY horse could be taught to slow lope like that will (not get into the walk b/c that is one that can be taught with little problems). That is why you can not tach a horse to do a 35 foot stop or cut a cow. Yes you can get them to stop or follow a cow to they will never be able to do it like one bred to to do it.
> 
> What you see is nothing more then a horse who does something naturally and enhancing it. Nothing more or less.


I wasn't going to comment on this, but I changed my mind. I do see the training on a cutter or reiner as naturally enhancing what the horse already has. It brings out the best in them and there is a beauty in the way they work that even someone who does not have a trained-eye for that discipline can usually see it. 

But after growing up with a family friend who owns, raises and shows WP horses I just can't see the beauty and grace they have naturally out in the field as being enhanced by the training they receive for in the ring. Yes, this is purely my own opinion, but to me I see what is currently happening in the WP ring a perversion rather than an enhancement on what the WP-bred horse has to naturally offer. 

It first happened with the peanut rollers - a low head set supposidly showed a relaxed pleasure horse so it was desired. The judges rewarded for it and eventually the training and rewarding brought their heads so low we ended up with peanut rollers, which thankfully now is no longer desired.  Instead the judges are rewarding slow horses as being a "pleasure" to ride and the perversion in training is seeing how slow they can get them in all gaits no matter how skewed the results look. Its taking it to extremes rather than focusing on the horse and really enhancing what they have to offer.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

GotaDunQH said:


> Opinions are one thing...CLAIMING to have it all figured out without ANY experience or knowledge to back it up...is ignorant.


And I'm sure you know the exact experiences and knowledge level of each and every person on this thread in order to make a well rounded decision on who is ignorant and who is not? Fascinating.


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

You also need to be clear on which subject you are posting on. You title says saddle breaking and we have put a kids saddle on a six month old before however saddle braking is NOT riding. Braking to ride is a lot hard you long yearlings and unless thy are being trained for a 2yr old futerity is rarely done by anyone looking to make a profit from a saddle horse. And while braking a horse to hound dose cause risks I personally believe that if handled properly they can be broke to ride by the time they are two. Sitting on a yearling once it is saddle broke for short periods of time (10 minutes out of an hour session) is something I don't have a opposition towards but never take anything under two out to work cattle or trail rides. We do however usually also halter break filter young, I know one dance that throws a halter on as soon as the mare has clean the foal and then keeps them up in the front pasture for the first two or three weeks while it is still glued to its dams side. 

Every trainers ideas are different I prefer to handle colts as much as possible until they are 2 start ground work and saddle and bit training then start braking to ride 2.5 or 3 years. In the end it all comes down to opinion and what they are being trained for and even their breed. The QH matures faster then a hano so yes they do normally get trained sooner.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ Well, because the majority of the people ON this thread, DO NOT own/ride/train WP horses....and have said so!! I'm a little confused because I guess you aren't reading the same thread I am.

ETA: This is my response to Cat...not the post above mine.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> DO NOT own/ride/train WP horses....and have said so!!


Well I said I owned a horse that was pleasure bred and had ridden a wp trained horse, Though I suppose that doesnt count. 

So first I posted this:


> As far as changing my mind, sure, give me enough evidence and I'm more than willing to change my oppinion, but as of this moment, all my experience thus far has told me otherwise.


And then you posted this:


> Because you don't WANT to understand. You simply want to sit there and pass uninformed judgement. The ignorance on this thread is a pretty sad commentary on the horse industry in general.


Remind me, who is ignorant here?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Well I said I owned a horse that was pleasure bred and had ridden a wp trained horse, Though I suppose that doesnt count.
> 
> So first I posted this:
> 
> ...


Excuse me but I HAVE posted information concerning the makings of a WP horse, but it has been ignored as hogwash. It REALLY is hard for a closed mind to learn. An open mind WILL learn. So don't put this on me, because I have put information out there.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Show me proof that all horses started at 1.5 years end up with physical problems at a young age. You put it out there, not prove it. Sure, if you don't use commonsense...you can have problems. The SAME problems with a horse started later in life...if you don't use commonsense.


Starting a very immature animal into hard work, is common sense, how? I'm not talking about sitting on, or even walking/ a bit of trotting, I'm talking about hard work, stressful on the body, being asked of horses that are still growing fairly rapidly.

And no, there is no way to absolutely, conclusively, prove the soundness issues that plague increasingly young show horses are ONLY due to hard work at a young age. There will always be those who think it makes no difference what age you start, if their horse breaks down at 5 its "she was fed too rich of food as a weanling", "Its her bloodlines, they all have weak hocks" or "the trainer must have not been doing their job properly".

If there is even a reasonable chance of starting a horse into hard work while its very immature causing significant damage and a higher chance of future lameness, wouldn't it be wise to wait, even just a little while?


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

:? Wow. In reading this thread I am amazed at the level of animosity towards a discipline. A difference of opinion is fine, but saying that those who own/ride/train wp horses have horses that are crippled, lame, or disgusting - or my favorite - a PERVERSION - to watch (just a small sample of the bashing comments in this thread) is rude.

I show all around and my mare does have APHA points in both amt and open western pleasure, as well as hunter under saddle, showmanship, horsemanship, trail, reining, and stake race. She got those points in WP for being collected, slow legged, with a naturally level head carriage. She will never be the slowest horse in the pen, but the judges are placing her, and the general statements on this thread are not compatible with what I have seen in the ring - 

It is offensive for posters to slam a discipline using generalities - many, MANY, wp horses are used in other events and are successful. If the horse were the crippled, lame, perversions that some take them for they wouldn't be able to compete in all around events. 

Not that any of this has to do with the original posters statements about starting horses early...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> Starting a very immature animal into hard work, is common sense, how? I'm not talking about sitting on, or even walking/ a bit of trotting, I'm talking about hard work, stressful on the body, being asked of horses that are still growing fairly rapidly.
> 
> *This has been said before but I will again say it. No one who start their horses at 2 (22-24 months normally) are saying go out and start running them and ask for a sliding stop and turns. Fare from it. Most of these horses at least with reiners they are not out of the walk/trot for the first 4-6 months. So not sure where the hard work is coming from. It is not stressful to the horse when done correctly. Been doing this a long time and have a lot of horses that where started at 2 and vetted clean at 12+ years old after a lot of work over the years.*
> 
> ...


B/C when done properly there is no more risk starting them at 2 and working up to showing as 3/4 yo then it is to start them latter and then have to push them to be ready. I have seen more horses injured early when started latter then I have horses started younger. People seem to think b/c the horse is older they can work a bit longer a bit harder and not given the time off when needed b/c they are older.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Starting a very immature animal into hard work, is common sense, how? I'm not talking about sitting on, or even walking/ a bit of trotting, I'm talking about hard work, stressful on the body, being asked of horses that are still growing fairly rapidly.
> 
> And no, there is no way to absolutely, conclusively, prove the soundness issues that plague increasingly young show horses are ONLY due to hard work at a young age. There will always be those who think it makes no difference what age you start, if their horse breaks down at 5 its "she was fed too rich of food as a weanling", "Its her bloodlines, they all have weak hocks" or "the trainer must have not been doing their job properly".
> 
> If there is even a reasonable chance of starting a horse into hard work while its very immature causing significant damage and a higher chance of future lameness, wouldn't it be wise to wait, even just a little while?


Look....personally, I would not start a horse at 1.5 years of age. Many of these 2 YO's competing aren't started until AFTER their 2 YO (January 1st before most of them are born before March)....and aren't shown until (as in the case of the video) until November. Like I said earlier, in AQHA a 2 YO can not be shown under saddle until July. I have NOT seen any 2 YO's being shown at the AQHA shows I go to...the class is always cancelled due to lack of entries. They are prepped for the big shows in October and November and they are FAR from being finished. There are some that crash and burn and it appears THOSE are the only ones people want to talk about. No one ever talks about the many that DON'T crash and burn at the age of 2 and go on to show into their late teens. But what fun would THAT be to talk about the vast positives, instead of concentrating on the negatives. It wouldn't be fine at all, cuz then ya'll wouldn't be bashing WP.

You know what bothers me more than starting a 2 YO and showing it 7 months later? Longe line classes for the yearlings and 2 YO's. I have yet to see one come back and be a successful under saddle horse because their minds have been blown far too young...without even swinging a leg over!


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

You haven't proved or shown us ANY horses that were started horribly young that are older and are fine after age 15-20


GotaDunQH said:


> Excuse me but I HAVE posted information concerning the makings of a WP horse, but it has been ignored as hogwash. It REALLY is hard for a closed mind to learn. An open mind WILL learn. So don't put this on me, because I have put information out there.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I just feel horrible for horses that are expected to show and be perfect at 2, are shown VERY hard until their 10 and then basically thrown away. 

People aren't enjoying horses for what they are, their changing them to get what they want, not something the horse wants to give. They are expecting these baby horses to show this young, it is plan horrible to me.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

You know what bothers me more than starting a 2 YO and showing it 7 months later? Longe line classes for the yearlings and 2 YO's. I have yet to see one come back and be a successful under saddle horse because their minds have been blown far too young...without even swinging a leg over!

what proof do you have you here? It is ALOT less likely for a horse to become messed up with lounging at a young age vs riding. An owner can not have as much control over a horse lounging (what they do and how they look) as in the saddle.

Riding requires muscle that horses that young DO NOT have, and are not able to ride like that comfortably. period.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You haven't proved or shown us ANY horses that were started horribly young that are older and are fine after age 15-20


Hello!!!!!! I own one! Have you not been comprehending what you are reading? I can name many more....


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You haven't proved or shown us ANY horses that were started horribly young that are older and are fine after age 15-20


I have seen a pile of them!(not sure what you consider"horribly young", assuming two.)

They go on to have show careers, futurity, derby, pack pros and non-pros then retired as as pleasure horses....

And like I said before I have had ranch horses strated at 4/5 years and crippled and used at 10...

And some started at two, crippled young. Ranch horses started at 4/5 went on to pack kids around in their twenties.....

DEPENDS on the horse, conformation, breed and use- not only as a youngster but throughout their riding career.


Also- Lunging is hard on a young horse..small circles. that is also why I dont spend much time(5-10 rides) in a roundpen.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You know what bothers me more than starting a 2 YO and showing it 7 months later? Longe line classes for the yearlings and 2 YO's. I have yet to see one come back and be a successful under saddle horse because their minds have been blown far too young...without even swinging a leg over!
> 
> what proof do you have you here? It is ALOT less likely for a horse to become messed up with lounging at a young age vs riding. An owner can not have as much control over a horse lounging (what they do and how they look) as in the saddle.
> 
> Riding requires muscle that horses that young DO NOT have, and are not able to ride like that comfortably. period.


 
Once again...HELLO!!!!! This is the discipline and show circuit I personally have shown for over 20 years! I have eyewitnessed it!!!!! YOU haven't...have you? SERIOUSLY, answer that question. Anyone who has been in the horse industry seriously and long enough, knows loneging a yearling and 2 YO consistently for training....wreaks on their knees and leg from the torque of going in small circles.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

You have yet to show prove, you claim to have been in their for 20 years, no one really knows it is true.
How is lounging a horse worse then riding it at 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SENSE.


GotaDunQH said:


> Look....personally, I would not start a horse at 1.5 years of age. Many of these 2 YO's competing aren't started until AFTER their 2 YO (January 1st before most of them are born before March)....and aren't shown until (as in the case of the video) until November. Like I said earlier, in AQHA a 2 YO can not be shown under saddle until July. I have NOT seen any 2 YO's being shown at the AQHA shows I go to...the class is always cancelled due to lack of entries. They are prepped for the big shows in October and November and they are FAR from being finished. There are some that crash and burn and it appears THOSE are the only ones people want to talk about. No one ever talks about the many that DON'T crash and burn at the age of 2 and go on to show into their late teens. But what fun would THAT be to talk about the vast positives, instead of concentrating on the negatives. It wouldn't be fine at all, cuz then ya'll wouldn't be bashing WP.
> 
> You know what bothers me more than starting a 2 YO and showing it 7 months later? Longe line classes for the yearlings and 2 YO's. I have yet to see one come back and be a successful under saddle horse because their minds have been blown far too young...without even swinging a leg over!





GotaDunQH said:


> Once again...HELLO!!!!! This is the discipline and show circuit I personally have shown for over 20 years! I have eyewitnessed it!!!!! YOU haven't...have you? SERIOUSLY, answer that question. Anyone who has been in the horse industry seriously and long enough, knows loneging a yearling and 2 YO consistently for training....wreaks on their knees and leg from the torque of going in small circles.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You haven't proved or shown us ANY horses that were started horribly young that are older and are fine after age 15-20


 
Take a look at Rowdy Yankee. He was started at 2 shown at the NRHA Futuriy and derby. Retired to stud braught back out at 12 legged up and showing at the USEF and did very very well and is still sound. Heck look at all the FEI horses they are all older and they where all started as 2yo.

My mares full brouther. Started also at 2. Shown at the Tradition and won that finished 4th at the futurity and he is now teaching his 4th non pro to rein. Still going strong and still winning in both rookie and open. Great horse.

Just take a look at the youth green rookie and non pro horses out there showing at the affiliate level. Most of those where started as 2yo and still going strong. 

Reason you do not see a lot of stallions and mares showing into their latter years is that they are more valuble as breeding stock.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You have yet to show prove, you claim to have been in their for 20 years, no one really knows it is true.
> How is lounging a horse worse then riding it at 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SENSE.


I will give you my AQHA number and pin number and you are MORE than welcome to look up my show record. If you don't know why loneging a youngster (yearling and 2 YO)does to a horse for long period of time....then wow, you need an education.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You know what bothers me more than starting a 2 YO and showing it 7 months later? Longe line classes for the yearlings and 2 YO's. I have yet to see one come back and be a successful under saddle horse because their minds have been blown far too young...without even swinging a leg over!
> 
> what proof do you have you here? It is ALOT less likely for a horse to become messed up with lounging at a young age vs riding. An owner can not have as much control over a horse lounging (what they do and how they look) as in the saddle.
> 
> Riding requires muscle that horses that young DO NOT have, and are not able to ride like that comfortably. period.


 
Getting horses ready for the lungeline classes is very very hard on them. I have friends how use to do them back in the day when they where new and the big things. They stoped b/c of the tole it took on the young horse. They went back to just starting them under saddle at 2 and never had problems again.

This is also why I spend very very little time lunging horses young or old. It is very hard on their legs.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> You have yet to show prove, you claim to have been in their for 20 years, no one really knows it is true.
> How is lounging a horse worse then riding it at 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SENSE.


 
It is physics. When you take anything and make it circle you are putting more stress to the out side. So by lunging a horse young or old you are putting more lateral pressure on their joings which in turns brakes them down. When you ride you do not put that type of lateral pressure on their joints it is more down and straight on which is how the joint is desinged to work.

Lunging is bad for a horse especilly a young horse.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

12 isn't old :rofl:


nrhareiner said:


> Take a look at Rowdy Yankee. He was started at 2 shown at the NRHA Futuriy and derby. Retired to stud braught back out at 12 legged up and showing at the USEF and did very very well and is still sound. Heck look at all the FEI horses they are all older and they where all started as 2yo.
> 
> My mares full brouther. Started also at 2. Shown at the Tradition and won that finished 4th at the futurity and he is now teaching his 4th non pro to rein. Still going strong and still winning in both rookie and open. Great horse.
> 
> ...


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Lunging a horse torques his body, forcing him to lean in a circle and putting stress on knees and joints. There is no doubt in the horse community that that torque and stress is bad for the baby, and you will not find any reputable trainer that advocates keeping a horse on a lunge or in a round pen for long. 

Riding allows a horse to go in straight lines, which is why those fitting yearlings and two year olds build muscle by ponying their show string using horses or more often, golf carts. I used to board at a training barn and it was interesting to watch a golf cart go by with three 2 year olds trotting behind, it reminded me of the old west with the horses hooked behind the wagon. Except for the neck sweats, as I am fairly confident pioneers didn't use those 

Lunging, round penning, hot walkers - they have their place but need to be used sparingly... indisputable fact.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^and why you have seen Longe Line futurities fall by the wayside at the big shows, except Congress. Actually, it's not even an AQHA approved event...the state AQHA affiliate (Ohio QHA) just adds it to the Congress for prospects.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Obviously if it is for a long time.
If you think it is Ok for a horse to be shown at 2, with not being devolved and taking pain in each step, then you need to learn how to be a good horse owner. 
I don't need to look at your show record.


GotaDunQH said:


> I will give you my AQHA number and pin number and you are MORE than welcome to look up my show record. If you don't know why loneging a youngster (yearling and 2 YO)does to a horse for long period of time....then wow, you need an education.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Those QH/paints didn't poof into the world moving that slow and painful. The things that are done to those horses to get them to be that way are alot more horrible.


nrhareiner said:


> It is physics. When you take anything and make it circle you are putting more stress to the out side. So by lunging a horse young or old you are putting more lateral pressure on their joings which in turns brakes them down. When you ride you do not put that type of lateral pressure on their joints it is more down and straight on which is how the joint is desinged to work.
> 
> Lunging is bad for a horse especilly a young horse.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I am not experienced in ANY discipline. I am only experienced in training my own horses and trail riding. So, I can only comment on this from a non-professional viewpoint. So, please do not take offence since these are only my simple opinion as an outsider......When I see this video, to me it looks like the horse was shot and trying to hobble along before it falls over. There is no personality or energy. It does not look comfortable or natural.

When I watch racing, it makes me cringe, like the horses are hot on crack waiting to expell energy. Running is not un-natural for the horse, but being hit with a crop and made to live a life in a stall is not natural and is simply done for the human.

English types of riding I guess are controversial due to their necks being held in un-natural positions for extended periods.

Now, I am assuming that there are horses that seem to have a drive to actually do these sports....which is what I have heard people say about certain horses. But mostly, I would think it is all for human desires that they do these things. Trail riding could go along in that category too. I mean does the horse really ever want a human riding it at all?

I think the main issue in this thread was starting horses young. Some disciplines are more intense than others. However, even this video....that is not intense at all.....obviously there still had to be a lot of time spent prior to teach the horse to do these things....it didn't just learn these things overnight. Meaning the horse was in training as a yearling or early 2yo. That is where the arguement is I believe, no matter what discipline....even trail riding.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> 12 isn't old :rofl:


 
Add in breeding between 50-100 mares a year and competing at the highest level there is. That is not too bad. 

Again take a look at the Affiliate standings in the NRHA. You will see a lot of horses into the 20 still packing around non pros and youth riders. Again most started at 2. 

I sold a stallion a few years ago. Started at 2 shown for years in reining and cow horse events. ex rayed at 12-13 when I sold him. He vetted as clean as a un started 2yo. 

My Dun It mare. Again started at 2. Shown for 5-6 years at a very high level in the NRHA this mare is a 73-74 mare again the year before she was retired she was vetted. CLEAN. Again like a horse who has never been worked hard at all. It all comes down to how they are started how they are maintained and other factors. Her full brother like I stated earlier is still out there packing non pros around. Again started at 2 shown at a very high level for about 3 years then off to his non pro owners.

Just go and take a look around. There are around at the affiliate levels.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Their breed because they can't be used for anything else.


nrhareiner said:


> Add in breeding between 50-100 mares a year and competing at the highest level there is. That is not too bad.
> 
> Again take a look at the Affiliate standings in the NRHA. You will see a lot of horses into the 20 still packing around non pros and youth riders. Again most started at 2.
> 
> ...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Those QH/paints didn't poof into the world moving that slow and painful. The things that are done to those horses to get them to be that way are alot more horrible.


 
First WP horses are bred to do slow just as reiners are bred to slide and cutters are bred to cut cattle. It is in their conformation and DNA. Plane and simple.

Also lunging a young horse has nothing to do with speed. Slower would actually be better on them. 

These horses are not in pain. Far from it. That is just the way they move. Is it my things? No not really. However I can certainly aprecialte and under stand the training and breeding it takes to get those horses. Just as I can with my reiners.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I said lounging has to do with how the horse is holding itself, and an owner can't have as much control over what the horse does.

But that is overdoing it, I know that. I think they look nice, when they are natural.


nrhareiner said:


> First WP horses are bred to do slow just as reiners are bred to slide and cutters are bred to cut cattle. It is in their conformation and DNA. Plane and simple.
> 
> Also lunging a young horse has nothing to do with speed. Slower would actually be better on them.
> 
> These horses are not in pain. Far from it. That is just the way they move. Is it my things? No not really. However I can certainly aprecialte and under stand the training and breeding it takes to get those horses. Just as I can with my reiners.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

SHE has a ton of examples for you


BlueSpark said:


> Some soundness issues may have been caused by breeding/stabling in race horses, but the work they are asked to do under saddle at a young age is crazy. on the farm we have
> miss - arthritis in her back and front end, started at 2 on the track
> cat - big boned gelding, started at 2, knees messed up by 3
> raz - arthrisis, severe mental issues from over stabling at 7
> ...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Their breed because they can't be used for anything else.


 
Would love for you to tell that to his owners. He is now a 17yo stallion an NRHA million $$ sire.

Here is a list of his accomplishments. I highlighed a big one. USEF qualifier and a gold medalist. Who can not do anything else ha?? Really? This horse is still sound today. Reason he is retired is b/c he is more valuble making the next generation of great hores.

06 NRBC *USEF Qualifier Gold Medalist* (with a 226.5!)
06 NRBC Open Class Champion (with a 226.5!)
06 Gordyville USEF Qualifier Bronze Medalist (with a 225.5!)
1997 NRHA Non Pro Futurity Champion
NRHA Saddlesmith Non Pro Champion
Reining By The Bay Open and Non Pro Derby Champion
(with a 232.5!)
Gordyville Breeders Cup Non Pro Futurity Champion

Multiple Futurity Winner At Three
1997 NRHA Futurity Non-Pro Champion
1997 Tradition Futurity Non-Pro Co-Champion
1997 NCRHA Futurity Non-Pro Champion
1997 $1000.00 Snaffle Bit Non-Pro Champion

Multiple Event Winner At Four
1998 National Reining Breeders Classic Non-Pro Champion (Lazy E)
1998 Gordyville Breeders Cup Non-Pro Futurity Champion
1998 $5,000.00 Saddlesmith Non-Pro Champion - NRHA Futurity
1998 $3,000.00 Non-Pro Champion - Florida Classic

Multiple Championship Winner At Five
1999 Open & Non-Pro Champion - Reining By the Bay
1999 World Champion - Saddlesmith Non-Pro
1999 Saddlesmith Non-Pro Champion - Rocky Mtn Summer Slide
1999 Saddlesmith Non-Pro Champion - Tradition Futurity
1999 Saddlesmith Non-Pro Champion - NRHA Futurity


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> there is no more risk starting them at 2 and working up to showing as 3/4 yo


Its not the caring owners who value their horses mental and physical health that are the problem, its the ones that are just in it for money or success in the show ring, or those who truly dont care. Example:

I saw a 1.5 year old qh filly at auction who was advertised as having 30 days on her chasing cows. Her owner was around the 200# mark and had a big old style western saddle.

The thoroughbreds that start training at 1.5 years old so they can race at 2 and are often cripled(mentally and/or physically) by 5

I went to a reining sale where the horses were barely two, most were packing big guys and huge western saddles, doing sliding stops and spins. The majority of these horses were 13.2-15hh, and built relitively light.

I don't care what disapline people choose to to compete it(or how funny i think it looks, we dont all like the same things), but when they cripple horses, then abandon them to the meat buyer, I have a problem with it. and unfortunately I've had to work with many horses who's owners started them young, rode them too hard, then ran them through an auction mentally or physically ruined.

Thankfully I think the majority of the people on this forum would not fall into this catagory.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^watch out NRHA...the owners of that stud will be accused of doing terrible things to him when he was young.

ETA: that was meant for NRHAreiner.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Its not the caring owners who value their horses mental and physical health that are the problem, its the ones that are just in it for money or success in the show ring, or those who truly dont care. Example:
> 
> I saw a 1.5 year old qh filly at auction who was advertised as having 30 days on her chasing cows. Her owner was around the 200# mark and had a big old style western saddle.
> 
> ...


I'm a huge horse racing fan....I have a love/hate relationship with it though. I follow it daily and have for the past 30 years. They are racing these 2 YO's starting in March/April of their 2 YO year. They are breeding them for speed and forsaking bone in the legs. The breakdown rate at the Aqueduct meet from the end of 2011 to early 2012 was incredible this year. So much so, that racing as a whole is taking a serious look as to why breakdowns are happening at this rate, task forces, government involvement etc. Horses racing in bute and lasix even before they turn 3 is a major problem.

As for the meat buyers, I see just as many non-descript grade horses being abandoned by owners and sold by the killers as I do any other horse. It does not discriminate between breeds, disciplines, when they were started etc. It's has EVERYTHING to do with irresponsible horse ownership and indiscriminate breeding betweenn unworthy animals....the resulting offspring having no market value and tossed aside.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

For every horse who comes up lame from being started early I can show you 10 that do not. It is not that they are started early but how they are started. 

Also if your horse needs MSN and he it out into his late 20's or 30s and has not been worked hard then I would take a good look at to why they need it to begine with. I just put down a 31 YO broodmare who never needed any suplinments of any time to stay sound.

I have a 22 yo stallion who has been worked hard he whole life and out side of being bioscaned and adjusted as needed he has never had his hocks injected or taken a lame step.

Same with the horses I posted earlier. How well a horse holds up has more do to with maintanance then anything.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^watch out NRHA...the owners of that stud will be accused of doing terrible things to him when he was young.
> 
> ETA: that was meant for NRHAreiner.


 
She asked for proof. Gave it. It is part of public record. So posted it here. I will make a correction to that post though. The horse is now 18 not 17. My bad.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Just in case that you think RW is a fluck.

How about Nu Chex To Cash? He is 22 this year still going strong.

Here is his list of accomplishments.

AQHA #1 All Time Reining Point Earner. The only horse in AQHA history to win both the Reining and Working Cow Horse high point titles the same year. 2002 NRHA Intermediate and Limited Open World Champion. 2002 Non Pro and Intermediate Non Pro Reserve World Champion. PHBA World Champion Senior Reining and Senior Working Cow Horse. Earner of over $61,000.

Oh and lets not forget about Trash. I will say that I like his sister better but that is just me.

Oh ya how about ENTERPRISE LADY. Now that was a mare.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Ace80908 said:


> :? Wow. In reading this thread I am amazed at the level of animosity towards a discipline. A difference of opinion is fine, but saying that those who own/ride/train wp horses have horses that are crippled, lame, or disgusting - or my favorite - a PERVERSION - to watch (just a small sample of the bashing comments in this thread) is rude.


Ace, I'm really sorry if you were offended by my use of the word perversion. Outside of street slang, it means a change to what is unnatural or abnormal. I find the way a WP show horse moves in the ring as unnatural. If that is being extremely rude and bashing - I'm am extremely sorry. I have been trying to voice my opinion without bashing anyone. I love WP horses, just not a fan of how they are asked to move in the show ring. 

Back to the rest on age starting horses. I see some of the discussion on starting 2 year olds undersaddle and defending that. Honestly if someone is starting a 2 year old under saddle, I'm not overly upset about that as long as the knees are closed. I prefer 3-4 years of age but I don't think if they are started in a reasonable manner at two that its the end of the world for that horse. Unfortunately I know some in the name of showing are starting 18 month olds to get them ready for shows by the time they are 2. I just can't see any justification of that other than greed.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Like has been stated many many times there are VERY few 2yo classes and the ones that are out there are at the end of their 2yo year. These horses are closer to being 3 then 2. They are not what I would considered finished show horses either. They are just well started horses aked to walk trot and lope stop (not a sliding stop either) and back. Something that every horse learns to do. Not overly hard work.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

* 1 Ok Conquistador * 2006 Gelding* 2 Shining In The Shade * 1995 gelding* 3 Pearls King Whiz *1999 gelding* 4 Mr Crometastic *2007 gelding* 5 Jac Out Freckles *
*2002 mare*


These are the NRHA Limited Non Pro top 5 horses. I can go back and find out how much they have been shown but to be at this level they where I would bet started at 2. All older and all still showing. Youngest one is 5 oldest 17.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

nrhareiner said:


> Like has been stated many many times there are VERY few 2yo classes and the ones that are out there are at the end of their 2yo year. These horses are closer to being 3 then 2. They are not what I would considered finished show horses either. They are just well started horses aked to walk trot and lope stop (not a sliding stop either) and back. Something that every horse learns to do. Not overly hard work.


I know what has been stated here, but I am also aware of what happens at a few WP breeders that I personally know - one being a pretty big-name farm (APHA). They all start them at 18 months and are loping them before 2 years of age. If the folks on this thread don't start until 2 - good for them and I don't have an issue with when they start.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Cat - I was offended, as I think anyone who rides, owns, or trains a western pleasure horse is at this thread. Describing our discipline as a perversion cannot be taken any other way. It has already been stated that many disciplines take a natural movement and enhance it (the piaffe in dressage, the spins in reining, the jumps in grand prix). Does that make those horses a perversion as well??

Regardless, I accept your apology and thank you for offering it. We can just agree to disagree on this one...


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

My goodness, this thread is full of generalizations and uneducated judgements ):

I hate the fact that if I say I start my horse at 2 and ride WP/HUS, everyone automatically thinks I'm a torturer, face-ripper, and a selfish futurity "beauty pageant" rider. When in fact, I look after every detail of my horse's health and while I do want to show big, I also combine training from natural horsemanship...

Just because you've seen it done wrong a couple times, doesn't mean _everybody_ does it wrong. Just because your horses are happy your way, doesn't mean my horses aren't happy _my_ way. 

On reading this thread _some people_ have just been pretty rude and closed-minded. :/ You have to realize when you make these harsh judgements on a particular discipline, you are insulting all those hard-working people who ride that way and are trying to make things better.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Don't worry Oh Vair Oh, I also start my pleasure/hus horses at 2, and I am also not a face ripper offer, torturer, or beauty pageant rider (my butts too big :lol... 

One day we will meet at Worlds or Congress and share a beer over the misguided opinions on this thread - in between showing in hus, wp, and the pattern classes on our cared for, well rounded, well trained, well bred babies.

Now ON WITH THE SHOW !! ;-)


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have to admire the dedication..lol



Black Beauty 94 said:


> SHE has a ton of examples for you


A couple of examples out of how many hundreds and thousands of horses....let's do the math...

Just curious BB, how much showing have you done or have you worked around showhorses? It sounds to me like you or basing you are not basing your opinions on 

_experience._


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

xxdanioo said:


> Are these horses generally born earlier in the year too? So come time to show they are 2 and a bit?


Yes. If people are breeding with the hope of getting a futurity horse, they try to have them born as close to January 1 as possible.

The show that the two's are at is held in November. They are not permitted to start showing at breed shows until June or July. I don't remember which. So before most of these horses ever hit a show pen, they are over two years old.


Going off on a tangent now....

There are a ton, TON, of horses that are bred specifically for the breed show events that don't make it as two year olds. If they aren't ready, they don't go out because the very last thing anyone wants to do is put a horse out there before it's ready. 

One of the things that I think is really disconnected from people that show regularly on the breed circuits and those who own horses just because they like them and are happy trail-riding and such is that breed show people seem more aware that there is a possibility that we will sell the horse. (Long, run on sentence.) We take our horses out where they are seen by trainers and fellow exhibitors who may at some point be shopping for a new horse. If I put my horse on the market, I don't want her being remembered for being a bad loper. So she didn't hit a QH show until she was a strong, able loper. 

For example, there is a young up-and-coming stallion who is with a very big name barn whose owner's original intent was to have him show in the 2's at Congress. He wasn't ready. So they sat on him a year, and this spring put him out with an introductory fee and a video of him being ridden at home. And mare owners booked their mares to him because they could see the potential and the quality there. It doesn't hurt at all that he is a sibling to two very, very successful horses (one gelding, one mare). Had he been shown as a two-year-old before he was ready, would he have had the mares booked to him that he did this year? Would people be talking about him as a horse to watch? No, they would remember him as the horse who couldn't lope despite what his famous siblings could do. 

Part of the issue when it comes to pleasure horses is that the average Joe's mental picture of a horse is a horse running around with it's mane whipping in the wind. Face it, that's true. People ooh and ahh over pictures of horses that look like that. 

Our pleasure horses don't look like that when they come in the pen. We have them going round and looking through the bridle. We cut their manes off. It's not Spirit, or Hidalgo, or Black Beauty or any sort of Hollywood depiction of a horse. There will never be a movie about a western pleasure horse, let's face it.

Unfortunately, for most of the horse-owning population, there is a distinct lack of education as well. The number of people who are showing their horses at the breed show level is very, very small compared to the number of horse owners out there. Let's face it, the average Joe horse owner is someone who rides maybe weekly or a few times a week. They own the horse because they enjoy it. They may take lessons occasionally. They probably enjoy going on trail rides and beach rides. They don't compete or ever plan to compete. 

They have basic horse knowledge and since they are not interested in the upper levels of competition, they don't bother to educate themselves about it. Maybe there is some resentment toward the people who do ride at the breed levels (or USEF hunters, or FEI dressage, or whatever) because they don't have the horse-power or the finances to be able to do that. I don't know. But, the bottom line is there a lack of knowledge and often no desire to learn about something with an open mind.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i simply cannot believe this thread is still going.

i know people in racing (firsthand) who don't start their horses too hard too young, race them right, retire them sound, and ALWAYS have the best interest of the horses at heart. i wish they weren't the exception, but the rule.

i know people that love and own and show TWH with a foundation in solid, natural training and don't perpetuate or support the Big Lick showing and style of training with the heavy, unnatural shoes.

i know people and ride dressage myself who do not use short cuts in training and are against rollkur and work their horses properly for lightness and suppleness without overuse or force such as rollkur. i wish people who trained with rollkur never won a show - but the reality is they do, just not all the time, or all of them.

i ride eventing and jumpers. i know high level jumper riders and trainers that train balance and suppleness and responsiveness to the aids and don't believe in big bits and gadgets but prefer the slow and steady and will drop a horse down a level or sell a horse to a lower level rider if they feel it's not in the horse's best interest to stay at GP - EVEN when that horse has won GPs and made it to numerous jumpoffs. is every jumper rider like this? unfortunately, no.

i know hunters that believe in balance and rhythm and style, without use of drugs or riding on the fore or just "buying their way into the show ring" by riding horses with poise and balance and movement. again does that mean every hunter is like this? no. there are hunters that ride on the fore doing the "bump bump release" to get their horse to look "long and low" and relaxed for the flat classes, and use dex or other drugs or inject hocks "just because". but again, that's not everyone.

the list goes on. halter bred QH. hatler arabs. sport arabs. "dumbbloods". i mean really, people...

any time you make a massive generalization about any discipline, you are grossly misrepresenting YOURSELF as a knowledgeable horse person. ANY horse person worth their salt imo knows that there are two sides to every coin, and good and bad to every discipline. for every positive training method, there is a negative one. for every honest trainer, there is a dishonest one.

let's do all of ourselves a favor and stop bashing any breed or discipline as overall good OR bad. there is - simply put - NO SUCH THING. that's every bit the same as me coming in here and making racial slurs or religious generalizations. and everybody knows that doing something THAT rude is well, just plain unacceptable.

come on folks, let's move on.


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Those QH/paints didn't poof into the world moving that slow and painful. The things that are done to those horses to get them to be that way are alot more horrible.


You have no freaking clue what you are talking about, but you will make wild accusations and comments.

This is exactly what is wrong with the horse industry. 


And for the record, my trainer's son shows a gelding that is in his twenties and was started as a two.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I have to admire the dedication..lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I screwed that sentence up...lol!
What I meant to say was-
"It sounds like you are not basing your opinions from experience"


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I am stepping in here with a warning. We are done with the back and forth attacks here. If you can't offer constructive comments about the original topic, stay away. We are done with the dramatics. This thread will be kept open a little longer in the hope of going back on topic. If not, kiss this thread good bye. 

In the meantime, surgery may be performed on this thread.


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## madeline97 (Jun 27, 2012)

The one this I don't like to see is such low head carriage, it just seems more like submission to me, but I guess if it is what is sought after in classes such as these, then it is fine so long as it is gained by NATURAL methods, not ropes pulling there heads to their ankles. But its not sad guys, this is what these horses are bred to do? People don't say "Awww thats so sad. Those TBs are out there running their hearts out!" because the majority of those horses LOVE what they do, and to me, WP is the same. Most of the horses competing at this level are talented, natural horses, and you can't force an unnatural horse into this frame and make it this far.


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