# Rant: Bruce Jenner



## karliejaye

GreySorrel said:


> I can't be the only one tired of hearing about him....So he is transforming himself into a woman....big whoop!! He still has his bits and pieces, he is still a male as far as I am concerned. He will always be a male, he can't have a baby, he can't have a period, he can't do anything a real woman can or has done. This is news worthy?!


So a woman is only a woman if she can have a baby!? Wow, I didn't know I am not a woman. :shock:


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## Red Gate Farm

They will print whatever news people are buying.

I just ignore a lot of stuff.


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## TessaMay

If it doesn't hurt you, why would you care? If Caitlin Jenner says she's a woman, let her be. If you are "tired of hearing about it" then stop paying attention. 

You're obviously very closed minded and have no idea the kind of hurt your statements can inflict on transgender community. Try educating yourself. If you're still close minded after some real education, then at least don't cause other people harm by spouting the kind of nonsense you wrote above about your requirements for "real women". 

I haven't had a period in years and will never have a child. Good to know I'm not a woman, does that make me a man then? Guess I should go grow some "bits".


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## Roman

Call me a transphobic if ya want, I believe if God wanted Bruce to be a woman, He would have made him a girl at birth. 

But I saw this on Facebook.


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## celestejasper13

Just because you don't agree with something someone says (such as 'I am a woman') does not make their opinion any less valid, nor does it mean the they had a choice over how they feel and are.
By what standards are you classifying 'male'? If your only understanding of the role gender plays is its use in reproduction, then, as karliejaye put it, you are missing the point a little.
Alternatively, if then, you agree that the gender you are born with in your mind is a part of who you are, then Caitlyn Jenner is as much of a woman as you or I.
What makes it newsworthy is that she has chosen to present herself as who she really is, despite the bigoted opinions that are being raised because of it. The media is fuelled by public interest, and it certainly interested you enough to start a rant about it!



God also gave us free will - and nowhere in the Bible does it call out transgenderism as sinful. 
In fact, much more emphasised in the Bible is the belief that you should love your neighbours (like the Good Samaritan) and Jesus' Golden Rule of 'treat others how you wish to be treated'. Religion and other people's life decisions are perfectly able to get along fine, if you choose to follow the loving side of your religion, and as long as you don't use your faith as an excuse to spread your close minded opinions.


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## karliejaye

Roman said:


> Call me a transphobic if ya want, I believe if God wanted Bruce to be a woman, He would have made him a girl at birth.
> 
> But I saw this on Facebook.



I have heard this argument for SO many things and it really irks me! I respect your and other's beliefs, but have trouble understanding how some folks pick and choose. For example, my cousin was born with a hole in his heart. You could say, God made him that way, he only gets 5 years to live. But instead he got surgery and is now a productive 31 year old member of society. Did Dr's interfere with God's will?
Just one example of what I refer to Religious picking and choosing.


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## Saddlebag

I rarely listen to the news or Hollywood views but so many times while checking channels, there something about the Kardashians. Like who cares. So now the guy who married a Kardashian is getting some attention. Again, who cares.


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## celestejasper13

karliejaye exactly! So people believe that homosexuality, transgenderism and premarital sex are wrong because the Bible says so, but the Bible also says to eat no shellfish, that women should be silent in the presence of men, and condones slavery! 
If you want to be liberal enough to ignore these things, then be liberal enough to loving to people around you. If you want to be hardline fundamentalist, then make sure you don't leave anything out!


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## SlideStop

Your gender and your sexuality don't have to coincide. You can biologically be male, but still feel female like you ARE a female and visa versa. I'm tired of hearing about it too... Just let Caitlyn Jenner do what makes Caitlyn happy. What difference does it matter to anyone else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman

karliejaye said:


> I have heard this argument for SO many things and it really irks me! I respect your and other's beliefs, but have trouble understanding how some folks pick and choose. For example, my cousin was born with a hole in his heart. You could say, God made him that way, he only gets 5 years to live. But instead he got surgery and is now a productive 31 year old member of society. Did Dr's interfere with God's will?
> Just one example of what I refer to Religious picking and choosing.


You're twisting things up. If God didn't want the kid to have surgery, he wouldn't have had surgery. But obviously God wanted him to, so that he'd live.



celestejasper13 said:


> God also gave us free will - and nowhere in the Bible does it call out transgenderism as sinful.
> In fact, much more emphasised in the Bible is the belief that you should love your neighbours (like the Good Samaritan) and Jesus' Golden Rule of 'treat others how you wish to be treated'. Religion and other people's life decisions are perfectly able to get along fine, if you choose to follow the loving side of your religion, and as long as you don't use your faith as an excuse to spread your close minded opinions.


Have you read Deuteronomy 22:5? I do not *hate* people like Bruce Jenner, I do not *hate* them, however, I do not believe he should be doing what he's doing nor others. I still love them, but not what they do.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

GreySorrel said:


> He will always be a male, he can't have a baby


I can't have a baby. I remember being younger and the doctor telling me everything wasn't in the right place (or not even there at all) and that I'd never physically have kids. I figured ok, great, more money for future horses then. 



> he can't have a period


Can't have those either. Mixed blessing I guess, never never have to worry about shark week and being miserable. 



> he can't do anything a real woman can or has done.


So because you're trying to quantify things that Caitlyn Jenner can't do and saying she's not a "real woman" because of this, ergo, you're also saying that plenty of women who were born with the same condition that I was are not "real" women either because we can't do those things. 

Well bless your heart. Aren't you a real peach.


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## SlideStop

Roman said:


> You're twisting things up. If God didn't want the kid to have surgery, he wouldn't have had surgery. But obviously God wanted him to, so that he'd live.


Or maybe God wants Caitlyn Jenner to be a transgender martyr? Who are you to say what God wants and doesn't want?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye

Roman said:


> You're twisting things up. If God didn't want the kid to have surgery, he wouldn't have had surgery. But obviously God wanted him to, so that he'd live.


On the same line of thought, if He didn't want Bruce to become Caitlyn, the option would never have been presented.

You can believe that it is going against God's will all you want. That is fine, but I do hope you are able to respect people who go through gender dysphoria. You can't know what they feel or how God has answered their prayers unless you are in their shoes. JMO


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## Speed Racer

Just because those born hardwired into a 'correct' gender don't understand, doesn't make transgender people wrong, sinful or disgusting.

Gender identity and sexuality may not match the body you're given, and for those people it's literally hell on earth.

Do I think Bruce/Caitlyn is doing this whole reveal the wrong way and for publicity's sake? Yes. Do I think she's also making it more open for trans and regular people to meet in the middle and talk? Yes, I do.

I've never had a gender or sexuality identity crisis. I'm a completely hetero female, but I don't believe that everyone has to be be like me or even be heterosexual to deserve love and understanding. 

People hate and vilify what they don't understand, be it religion, gender identity or sexuality, and that's simply wrong. This is the time to be understanding and compassionate, and learn a thing or two about the real world we live in. 

It's not black and white; life is complex and made up of many fabulous colors. We have room for all of them, if we could just learn to accept everyone else's differences.


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## karliejaye

Roman, I just want to make sure you don't think I am ragging on you. Not at all. I really do appreciate how you have presented your argument, regardless of my opposing opinion. Thank you for not using hateful language and talking about the action, not the people.


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## churumbeque

Saddlebag said:


> I rarely listen to the news or Hollywood views but so many times while checking channels, there something about the Kardashians. Like who cares. So now the guy who married a Kardashian is getting some attention. Again, who cares.


Bruce Jenner is not a guy who married a Karsashian. A Kardshian married Bruce a world champion triathlete. Bruce is far more famous than the Kardashians. I am guessing you are young or you would know that.


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## churumbeque

GreySorrel said:


> I can't be the only one tired of hearing about him....So he is transforming himself into a woman....big whoop!! He still has his bits and pieces, he is still a male as far as I am concerned. He will always be a male, he can't have a baby, he can't have a period, he can't do anything a real woman can or has done. This is news worthy?!


I think it's pretty interesting. I can only imagine how hard it was for Bruce to finally come public with his struggles.


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## Speed Racer

I believe the correct term is '_Kartrashian_', churumbeque.


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## aubie

He is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If this is his pursuit, so be it.

If this in some way helps someone else, I'm all for it. Maybe it gives someone hope, and shows them they can change their circumstances in life. Maybe even keep them from ending theirs. 

I can't imagine what it must be like to feel this way. I can't imagine what its like to face the struggles that transgenders or gay people face.


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## alexischristina

> You're twisting things up. If God didn't want the kid to have surgery, he wouldn't have had surgery. But obviously God wanted him to, so that he'd live.


Others have said it and I'll say it again... by that logic, if God didn't want Caitlin to have the surgery, she would not have had the surgery and would not have been able to transition to her correct gender.

You know... I'm a firm believer that people are entitled to their opinions, but I can't wrap my head around WHY people become so upset when they see another person living their life as they choose. The argument that it's in the public eye is a moot point, in my opinion because heterosexuality, Christianity, etc. are also displayed very prominently in the public eye and receives much less flak and when you really scrape it down neither are "natural" or "right." If you don't like it, don't listen. Change the channel, change the station, don't buy the tabloids... it's simple because representation is VERY important and right now the trans community is getting some representation that is actually very necessary... 

I don't personally understand what it must feel like to be born in the wrong body, I don't pretend to. But you don't have to understand the feeling to be supportive of another persons' struggle.


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## Mulefeather

I'm glad that transgender folks are gaining a voice, and if Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner wants to be the face of that movement, at least he is doing something positive with his fame and fortune. 

I personally feel very sorry for transgender folks - while I will never be able to see their POV directly, as I am not transgender myself, I have met many TG folks in my travels. Not a one of them has escaped their experience without deep and lasting mental and emotional scars, and many of them lead lonely and short lives. 

I do admit that I see a lot more people claiming to be "transgender" now, mostly young people who are looking for something to latch onto because they are desperate to form an identity. But confused and lost people will either grow until they are not confused or lost anymore, or they will remain so their entire lives. If it wasn't transgenderism, it'd be something else.


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## Foxhunter

I knew a man who transgendered to a woman.

He said he knew from an early age he should have been a girl. He loved dressing up, playing with dolls and makeup. 
As he reached puberty he realised he had to stop to be accepted into society. He joined the army - the Marines and from there went into the SAS. Cannot get much more macho than that. 
He married and had two children. Came out the army and became a welder. 

All this time he was living a lie. He loved his wife and his children and tried to make it all work. It was his wife who encouraged him to seek advice, she worked with him and after much soul seeking and psychiatric help, he decided to transgender.

When I knew him he was waiting the final operation. He was still very close to his wife and children. He dressed as a woman but, with the tattoos he had on his arms and body there was no disguising the fact he had been a man. 

His children, the lad about twelve and the daughter sixteen, we're not bothered about his change to her. I spoke to both and they said the same thing. "Dad is much happier now as a she than she was as a he." They still called her Dad. 

She went to their schools for activities, taught karate after school, and the other children just accepted the change and admired her for it. 

In talking she said that she had chosen the most macho jobs possible to try and deny to herself what she really wanted and felt she was. 

There are cases where girls born with a protruding clitoris have been labeled as boys and brought up as such. There have been cases of hermaphrodites where a child has both sexual organs - should they suffer or have medical assistance to help them be what they feel they should be?

As for the Bible, it contradicts itself all the time. There are even some parts that suggest that Jesus had homosexual relationships.

Depends on how you translate it.


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## bkylem

Saddlebag said:


> I rarely listen to the news or Hollywood views but so many times while checking channels, there something about the Kardashians. Like who cares. So now the guy who married a Kardashian is getting some attention. Again, who cares.


The Kardashians are famous for being famous. The media says that they are special so we believe it. They tell us to watch, so we do. They indirectly tell us that they are better than we are and we accept it. They then tell us that this is "Reality". 

Reality is home.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

aubie said:


> I can't imagine what it must be like to feel this way. I can't imagine what its like to face the struggles that transgenders or gay people face.


I can't imagine what they face either, especially not in a world where some people seem to insist on exact shades of black and white/"right and wrong"

I've never had the same challenges in life as transgendered men and women have faced, and one really has to admire them for trying to be who they really are, as they see themselves and how they want to be seen.


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## Incitatus32

GreySorrel said:


> I can't be the only one tired of hearing about him....So he is transforming himself into a woman....big whoop!! He still has his bits and pieces, he is still a male as far as I am concerned. He will always be a male, he can't have a baby, he can't have a period, he can't do anything a real woman can or has done. This is news worthy?!


But what things make a "real woman"? I am a woman in the prime of her life. I have a career, I do my own property maitenance, I rarely cook or clean and I refuse to get married or have kids. I have absolutely no desire to ever procreate. So does that make me less of a person than Caitlyn Jenner? Am I not a woman because of my views and decisions? 

Is a woman solely a vessel for child bearing and rearing? What makes a "real woman" and what makes a "real man"? 

There is a key difference between woman and female. Female implies (IMHO) a biological nature of the body. Such as sex chromosomes. A BIOLOGICAL MALE has an XY, a BIOLOGICAL FEMALE has an XX. 

Woman and man however implies social gender roles. For instance, in some cultures in Indo-china 'woman' and 'man' simply define the roles the individual plays in that culture. If a MALE does the housework, cares for the children he is classified as a 'woman'. If a FEMALE does the hunting and gathering and (even though she has bore the children) does maintenance she is the 'male'. Of course woman and man are not the terms utilized here, but the idea is the same without diving into another language. 



Roman said:


> Call me a transphobic if ya want, I believe if God wanted Bruce to be a woman, He would have made him a girl at birth.


God's words not mine: "Judge ye not" or something like that ;-) I don't think it's fair to bring any deity into this simply because the nature of the beast is that if "God" had anything against Caitlyn Jenner he would have made sure she perished long ago. We live in a society where times have changed. There no longer is a 'mass' religion and the beliefs within established religions are rapidly changing. Because of this we have to adapt and learn when religion plays a part in an argument and when it does not. (For instance my church, Roman Catholic, just married two gay couples. This might seem to be off topic, but for a backwater, holier than thou multi international business conglomerate this is HUGE.) 

Transgender is something we have seen culturally, and naturally for eons. Certain species will swap genders AND they will switch gender roles within packs. Human beings have done the same things since the beginning of time. We just NOW have hit the point where we are advanced enough to do things on a surgical level to alter anatomy. 

All in all I tend to agree that this is over publicized. Then again it highlights a big issue. If you all have noticed, all the publicity is over how she LOOKS. There is nothing about her feelings, her aspirations, her motivations. It's all about how 'feminine' she looks. This disgusts me more than anything. And the fact that we have to have this much publicity because of ignorance and intolerance. 

I have a dear friend who recently made the decision to become a woman. Now unlike Jenner he is too poor to do anything surgically but he presents himself as a woman, he lives like a woman and he's happy with that. Seeing someone happy is reward enough for me and I will combat any negativity that attempts to demonize someone's personal (and private) choices. 

I guess my point is that transgender is NOTHING NEW to us. It is, however something that now has come to the forefront because of medicine and it's capabilities. If someone's happy let them be happy. If someone wants to change social gender then let them. All this debate about how it's 'unnatural' is ridiculous. There are too many cases in nature that speak for the opposite. Leave the judging and worrying to any deity that's going to be at the end. Save your worries and butterflies for other, more important things.


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## karliejaye

Just a bit of food for thought and a reminder that Christianity (or the judeo monothiesms for that matter) are not the only religions.

The 'Two-Spirit' people of indigenous North Americans


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## Allison Finch

Roman said:


> You're twisting things up. If God didn't want the kid to have surgery, he wouldn't have had surgery. But obviously God wanted him to, so that he'd live.


And GOD gave doctors the ability to reassign a persons gender surgically. I guess that is the same as operating on a baby.


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## Saddlebag

Roman, how many Christians follow the bible as they claim - don't see any obese parishioners and pastors cutting their throats. It's one of the rules. How about stoning your kids to death for lipping off their parents or the husband stoning his wife to death for talking back and talking back has many meanings. I could go on. This is what your god has written in the bible.


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## Roman

Saddlebag said:


> Roman, how many Christians follow the bible as they claim - don't see any obese parishioners and pastors cutting their throats. It's one of the rules. How about stoning your kids to death for lipping off their parents or the husband stoning his wife to death for talking back and talking back has many meanings. I could go on. This is what your god has written in the bible.


That is the Old Law. If you read the Bible, you'd know God created a New Law. We still read the Old Testament and learn from it, but we are under the New Law.


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## celestejasper13

The New Testament, above all, preaches love and acceptance, following the example of Jesus. 
God will judge people when it is time, transgender people face enough problems coming to terms with themselves, let alone facing judgement from people around them who are, to be honest, unaffected by their life choices.


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## Zexious

The bible should be a way to live one's own life, not means through which to judge other people's lives.


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## jaydee

It's only 'news' because the media has decided to pick it up and run with it

I really don't see what God has got to do with it - not everyone in the world believes in God so religion has no place in what Caitlin has decided to do

I don't pretend to understand 'why' but there's an old saying
'You should walk a mile in someone else's shoes before judging them'
Live and let live. It's hurting no one.
The world would be a better place if everyone could learn to be more tolerant of things that don't cause any trouble or harm


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## beau159

If Bruce wants to be Caitlin now, have at it. Do what makes you happy. 

But I am sick of hearing about it. 
And the Kardashians. 
And all other famous people for that matter. 

It bothers me when "gossip" and celebrities becomes NEWS. Leave the gossip to the gossip show, and leave the news to the news shows. Gossip is not news!!


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## alexischristina

beau159 said:


> If Bruce wants to be Caitlin now, have at it. Do what makes you happy.
> 
> But I am sick of hearing about it.
> And the Kardashians.
> And all other famous people for that matter.
> 
> It bothers me when "gossip" and celebrities becomes NEWS. Leave the gossip to the gossip show, and leave the news to the news shows. Gossip is not news!!


It bothers me too when gossip becomes news. It bothers me when gossip hits the tabloids, period. But this isn't just gossip. Representation of the transgender community is incredibly important for other transgender people. This might not be important to you, but there's an entire community of people for whom this "gossip" as you call it is VERY important. For a lot of people it's good news that might help to help them function as themselves and find their identities.


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## Saddlebag

Didn't Jesus say to not pass judgement upon people, yet so many Christians do and other religions for that matter.


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## Roman

alexischristina said:


> It bothers me too when gossip becomes news. It bothers me when gossip hits the tabloids, period. But this isn't just gossip. Representation of the transgender community is incredibly important for other transgender people. This might not be important to you, but there's an entire community of people for whom this "gossip" as you call it is VERY important. For a lot of people it's good news that might help to help them function as themselves and find their identities.


Lots of other people have turned transgender. Why were they not a "hero" or an "influence"?


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## alexischristina

Roman said:


> Lots of other people have turned transgender. Why were they not a "hero" or an "influence"?


Yes, many other people have become transgender and you're right... most of them have not been recognized as heroes but that's because they weren't public figures to begin with. People seem to forget that in Caitlin's past she was a fairly influential athlete... that she's not just a 'Kardashian' (not a Kardashian at all, actually) but her presence as an athlete and her presence on reality television as controversial / generally hated as that might be has made her a public figure... so her transition has caught the attention of the news and become visible. She's being considered an influence because she is, her visible transition is acting as a visible representation not only for other transgender people but particularly for transgender men and women who are older who have are represented to an even lesser extent.

And to touch on the rest of your comment... yeah, many other people are transgender and many other transgender people are recognized as icons, heroes and influences, all you have to do is dig a little. Just because _you_ don't know who they are, doesn't mean they aren't heroes to another community or other people.


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## aubie

Roman said:


> Lots of other people have turned transgender. Why were they not a "hero" or an "influence"?


That part is just what society/media age has become. Click on yahoo at anytime and there are stories about what the Kardasians are wearing, going, doing. As I type this there are people going to stores and businesses to gather food to serve at a shelter. People handing out food and needs to the homeless. Volunteers comforting the sick, injured and dying. It goes on and on. Very rarely do these heroes get any ink either.


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## karliejaye

Roman said:


> Lots of other people have turned transgender. Why were they not a "hero" or an "influence"?


I so wish others could be the role models for the trans community. That such a high-profile Olympian and [sadly] reality TV star making the transition is what it took to wake up the general populace into having a frank discussion about it speaks volumes about where our society is right now :? 
Not to belittle Caitlyn's transformation, but there are countless other transgender heros out there.


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## beverleyy

karliejaye said:


> So a woman is only a woman if she can have a baby!? Wow, I didn't know I am not a woman. :shock:


My sister apparently isn't a woman either. :wink:

In all honesty though, I think if ANYBODY wants to be identified as a woman or man, or whatever, so be it. That's their choice and I really don't see how that effects anyone but themselves.


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## Allison Finch

Bruce Jenner was a hero of mine in the 1976 Olympics when he won the gold medal in the modern decathlon. That event is a HUGE thing, where you have to compete in TEN track and field events to win. these events are;


*Day 1*
100 metres
Long jump
Shot put
High jump
400 metres


*Day 2*
110 metres hurdles
Discus throw
Pole vault
Javelin throw
1500 metres

It takes a heck of an athlete to win this. I watched almost every event hoping he would win. He was such a handsome rascal.



















I think this makes him an excellent spokeswoman for this situation. To show that you can be athletic and successful......but still be supremely unhappy with what life has granted you.


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## RegalCharm

He sure didn't mind being a male to much when he married a woman and started making kids with her.


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## beverleyy

RegalCharm said:


> He sure didn't mind being a male to much when he married a woman and started making kids with her.


While I cannot speak from personal experience, I can definitely say that sometimes, that's just how it goes. I have a close friend who's mum and dad were married 20+ years (3 kids). The friend's mum was aware for a large portion of the marriage that he was not into women. They stayed together because while he was not physically attracted to women, he loved his wife and family and she loved him. They are now divorced, and both remarried, yet both new families remain on great terms.


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## Allison Finch

RegalCharm said:


> He sure didn't mind being a male to much when he married a woman and started making kids with her.


So?

Many people try very hard to be "normal". Why are you so harsh about that. Do you think his wife didn't figure it out?


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## GreySorrel

It is my opinion, same as what others said is theirs. I may not like others opinions or views, but I respect that they said it and responded. Not going to sit here and say someone is a "transphobe" or what not, nor am I going to call names, that isn't right in a debate or a group airing their views.

And just because Bruce looks like a woman and took a female's name, he STILL has a penis...and his DNA will always be male...

Courageous? No...courage is a fire fighter or EMT running into a burning building to rescue a person, courage is dying with dignity when you know there is no other option and doing so with grace, courage is a soldier fighting over seas for our freedom, courage is a battered woman leaving her abusive husband/boyfriend and finding it in herself to stand up and say no more. Those are some examples of courage....


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## Allison Finch

Well, when Bruce was male, he was celebrated for being a great athlete, good businessman.....

Now that she is a woman, all they can talk about is her looks.....and her age.....

Welcome to being a woman in America. Will you enjoy being objectified in a way you never were before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE2_4yt0Aow


The video speaks.....


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## GreySorrel

This was a really well written article:
https://emilysuzanne11.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/bruce-jenner-is-not-a-hero/

June 2, 2015 
* Bruce Jenner Is Not A Hero *

I generally try to steer clear of controversial issues on here. Most are so deeply embedded in presuppositions that writing about them generally just generates more anger and frustration than meaningful discussion. However, I never want to shy away from speaking something that needs to be said even if I know it is not something people want to hear. So, I want to talk about Bruce Jenner.


Today, Bruce Jenner appeared on the cover of Vanity Fair, dressed as a woman and introducing himself to the world as “Caitlyn Jenner.” You see, he has decided that he is a woman and that by saying it and probably some very extensive surgery, he can make it so. In today’s world, we think gender is something we get to choose, like our career path or our clothes. So, people across the nation have lauded him as a hero. Certainly, this is the current opinion of the masses, but I have to say it. The emperor has no clothes and Bruce Jenner is not a woman.


You can tell me that there is a difference between gender and sex, that Bruce was born with a male body and a female soul, but I would ask where did he get this soul? If there is no God, we are all nothing more than raw matter, we have no souls. If, however, we do have souls, there must be something more than the material. There must be something spiritual and if there is something spiritual, there must be a God who gave us these spirits, but if there is a God, would He make the mistake of putting a female soul in a male body? How can we know? We can know by what He tells us in His word. “Male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27) and He does not make mistakes, but does everything perfectly with love and wisdom.


We seem to want to erase the idea of gender and reinforce it all at once. We don’t want to have to conform to gender stereotypes. We don’t want to be put into categories and yet we want to be able to transfer ourselves by self-declaration from one category to another. We are so in love with our rebellion against God that we cannot see the absurdity and inconsistency of it all.


You may scoff at me. You may call me close-minded because I have allowed my religious beliefs to (gasp!) affect my judgments of propositions such as “Bruce Jenner is a woman trapped in a man’s body.” But if being open-minded means unquestioningly accepting anything and everything because it is progressive or popular, then I want no part of it. If you think I view the world from a Christian perspective and reject things that, based on that world view and common sense, are absurd, I will unabashedly and unapologetically agree.


If you don’t see things from the same Christian world view that I do, we probably do not agree and that is no surprise, but I must insist on one thing. Bruce Jenner is not a hero. A hero is someone who has done something brave or noble, who has sacrificed for others. Bruce Jenner has done none of these things. He is a man who has posed in women’s clothing on the cover of a magazine, garnering excessive media attention. What’s more he has waited to do so until the optimum moment when he was most sure to receive praise and acceptance. Heroes risk much and gain little. Bruce Jenner has risked little and gained much. I am sure there are many people out there who do things to deserve the title of “hero,” but Bruce Jenner is not one of them. He is not a hero and he is not a woman. He is what we all are: lost, sinful, and desperately in need of Jesus. I pray he finds Him.


----------



## Speed Racer

Some of you are far too young to remember Renée Richards. She was one of the first transgender women to come out and demand that she be treated as a woman. She was a professional tennis player back in the 1970s.

Transgender people have been around since humanity crawled out of the muck. As someone else stated, medical science has now advanced to the point where their outsides can match their inner identities.

Some of you astonish me with your hatred and bigotry. I thought the younger generations were supposed to be more open and accepting of gender reassignment, homosexuality and all the other myriad ways humans identify themselves.

Seems it's us older folks who understand and believe in live and let live. Maybe it's because we've seen and been through so much in our lives, and realize that everyone deserves to live peacefully as they see fit, as long as it doesn't involve hurting others.

Caitlyn isn't hurting any of you, and her gender has no affect on you at all.


----------



## Zexious

Grey, So if Caitlin goes through a surgery to be outfitted with a vagina and breasts then she will count as a woman?

I don't get why people care... Whether or not she calls herself a man, a woman, or a butterfly really shouldn't be of any consequence to anyone else, particularly no one on this site.


----------



## alexischristina

RegalCharm said:


> He sure didn't mind being a male to much when he married a woman and started making kids with her.


Maybe he did. I'm sure you are not Caitlin Jenner, therefore you don't know exactly HOW she felt at the time, do you? Perhaps as a man Bruce was profoundly unhappy... I suspect that's the case. But societal norms tell you to get married... have kids... you can be married with children and STILL be unhappy, as Allison said, sometimes people try very hard to be "normal."



GreySorrel said:


> It is my opinion, same as what others said is theirs. I may not like others opinions or views, but I respect that they said it and responded. Not going to sit here and say someone is a "transphobe" or what not, nor am I going to call names, that isn't right in a debate or a group airing their views.
> 
> And just because Bruce looks like a woman and took a female's name, he STILL has a penis...and his DNA will always be male...
> 
> Courageous? No...courage is a fire fighter or EMT running into a burning building to rescue a person, courage is dying with dignity when you know there is no other option and doing so with grace, courage is a soldier fighting over seas for our freedom, courage is a battered woman leaving her abusive husband/boyfriend and finding it in herself to stand up and say no more. Those are some examples of courage....


Yes, those are some examples of courage, but those examples of courage don't negate the courage Caitlin is expressing... Deciding to come out as a woman despite the scrutiny, insults and degradation is INCREDIBLY courageous in my opinion. 

I'm a firm believer that biological sex and gender are two entirely different things. Have you ever heard the term gender identity?

IMO calling someone transphobic isn't calling names, it's stating facts. Continuing to call Caitlin Bruce (you know, the whole "call me Caitlin" is a pretty simple request...) and continuing to be so adamant that "Bruce is a MAN" is totally disrespectful. Suppose people started calling you by someone elses name and referring to you as your incorrect gender, how would YOU feel?

We have to remember that despite being a celebrity, despite being an athlete or a reality TV star, we are talking about a HUMAN BEING here, another person who has feelings, who has struggled with this for a very long time, we need to be a bit respectful.


----------



## GreySorrel

Zexious said:


> Grey, So if Caitlin goes through a surgery to be outfitted with a vagina and breasts then she will count as a woman?
> 
> I don't get why people care... Whether or not she calls herself a man, a woman, or a butterfly really shouldn't be of any consequence to anyone else, particularly no one on this site.


Nope...Bruce is Bruce and always will be Bruce because his DNA will never change...

Yes, live and let live and don't invite everyone into your home to know every move you make, say, breath, do, or sleep with. There is a big difference. Don't want people to say something negative, don't share it with the world because not everyone will agree. 

That is called an opinion....everyone is entitled to it regardless of whether we agree or not. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, nor does it mean I need to be called names that are just not true.


----------



## alexischristina

GreySorrel said:


> Nope...Bruce is Bruce and always will be Bruce because his DNA will never change...
> 
> Yes, live and let live and don't invite everyone into your home to know every move you make, say, breath, do, or sleep with. There is a big difference. Don't want people to say something negative, don't share it with the world because not everyone will agree.
> 
> That is called an opinion....everyone is entitled to it regardless of whether we agree or not. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, nor does it mean I need to be called names that are just not true.


The problem is bigger than Caitlyn (I realize I've been spelling it wrong this entire time ). There are countless people in the world going through the same issue, every time someone says something negative about Caitlyn adults and children alike read it and are invalidated. The way they feel, the way they live their lives. Transphobic comments directed at Caitlyn are problematic because they affect more than those directly involved. 

Why are you so offended by Caitlyn's life choices? How does it affect you?


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## GreySorrel

I don't think I am offended...I have already said I am tired of hearing about his new life....to me personally this is not newsworthy....but then again, I care more about real world issues....


----------



## CaliforniaDreaming

GreySorrel said:


> And just because Bruce looks like a woman and took a female's name, he STILL has a penis...and his DNA will always be male.


So lemme see if I get this straight. You're saying that because someone has an XY DNA sequence, they MUST be male and will always be male?

Just trying to clarify something here.


----------



## GreySorrel

CaliforniaDreaming said:


> So lemme see if I get this straight. You're saying that because someone has an XY DNA sequence, they MUST be male and will always be male?
> 
> Just trying to clarify something here.


I a pretty sure that is what we were taught in college Biology...yea, you may look like a woman, you may have reconstruction surgery but your DNA stays the same so yep....he will always be a man. 

And what does it matter what I think anyhow? Like you, right or wrong, I am entitled to my own opinion.


----------



## alexischristina

What is news worthy to you?

Was Leelah Alcorns death newsworthy?

Was Cameron Langrells death newsworthy?

Was Taylor Alesenas death newsworthy?

What about Ash Haffner? Zander Mahaffey? Eylül Cansın?


----------



## GreySorrel

alexischristina said:


> What is news worthy to you?
> 
> Was Leelah Alcorns death newsworthy?
> 
> Was Cameron Langrells death newsworthy?
> 
> Was Taylor Alesenas death newsworthy?
> 
> What about Ash Haffner? Zander Mahaffey? Eylül Cansın?


I read about those yes....to their parents they were worthy....

Newsworthy to me is what our soldiers are doing, what support they receive. What is our government doing? Who is running for presidency and what is their background. What is the price of corn, beef, things that effect a farm, that relate to me personally. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Just because I personally have no use for what I view as not news worthy doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

Again, just because my view doesn't agree with you or anyone else doesn't mean it isn't valid....


----------



## alexischristina

Is it newsworthy when those deaths were the result of a systemic societal issue? 

What about the world outside your door, that doesn't affect you directly? What about OTHER people?


----------



## GreySorrel

alexischristina said:


> Is it newsworthy when those deaths were the result of a systemic societal issue?
> 
> What about the world outside your door, that doesn't affect you directly? What about OTHER people?


Were going to have to agree to disagree..I am NOT going to get into a ****ing contest with you because my idea of news worthy and yours differ.


----------



## alexischristina

I wouldn't call this a ****ing contest, I'd call it a conversation... a debate, maybe and I really would like to try to understand your point of view, and maybe spread some awareness in the process, but if you would rather not reply that's obviously totally ok.


----------



## farmpony84

*Moderator Note*

All - While it is fine to disagree, argue, and debate within this thread, please be mindful of the conscientious etiquette policy when posting your responses. Also, please remember this thread is listed under the open forum so all members can read it, therefore please remember to keep your opinions at the PG-13 level.

Thanks.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

GreySorrel said:


> I a pretty sure that is what we were taught in college Biology...yea, you may look like a woman, you may have reconstruction surgery but your DNA stays the same so yep....he will always be a man.
> 
> And what does it matter what I think anyhow? Like you, right or wrong, I am entitled to my own opinion.


Well, I think people are entitled to their own opinions, as long as they're open minded enough to understand that right or wrong, yes or no, etc. does not always come out in perfect shades of black and white. But to say that XX=female and XY=male and that's your final answer is well, naive, really. 

There's a lot of research that's been coming out over the years (heck, even within my own lifetime) where I've learned things about my own condition that people didn't talk about before, or didn't want to accept because it's outside the norm. 

For the record, I'm not transgendered female, nor am I transgendered male. I'm fully heterosexual female. I just happen to have a condition that occurs in one of about 13,000 births, and my mom has 2 kids with XY chromosomes. One of them is my brother, and the other one is me. 

All those things said about Caitlyn Jenner (can't have kids, can't have a period, etc) happens to every single woman with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) which used to be called testicular feminization until the name was changed, and there's nothing masculine about a CAIS woman. She IS a woman, no mistaking that. If someone were to pull blood and run a DNA analysis without knowing who I was, you'd get that XY sequencing that says "Male" and that couldn't be farther from the truth. 

Look, I'm not trying to argue and say your opinion is invalid, but I think the whole fact that so much has come out over the years in regards to intersexuality (and these are just "normal" people who feel their gender identity matches the gender they were raised with) that I think it does raise the questions and possibilities for gender dysphoria. I think it was Speed Racer who pointed out that gender identity doesn't equal biological sex and I think that's really true. You've got XY females, XXY males, and something called alpha-5-reductase deficiency which you can read about in Jeffrey Eugenides _Middlesex_ where the protagonist was raised female due to feminine characteristics, but has a male gender identity.

I'm not trying to get long winded and boring here, just trying to say why I'm definitely on the side of anyone who feels insecure in their gender identity. I've never doubted who I was in any way, I might have been born genetically male, but I've been raised female and have never thought "hey, maybe I'm a really a guy." But I think the fact that I am who I am and how I'm put together mentally, physically and emotionally could very well be a way of saying that there are others out ther who feel differently about themselves and that they ought to have that right to be who they feel they are, and who are we to have any say against it except to accept it and move on. Don't like it, ya don't gotta listen to it, that's all I can say. 

(Of course, since it's a whooooooole other kettle of fish, this is probably why I champion same sex marriage too. Because someone once said to me that marriage was between a man and a woman, at which point my rebuttal was "define man and define woman")


----------



## Incitatus32

Zexious said:


> The bible should be a way to live one's own life, not means through which to judge other people's lives.


Can I just say I love this and that this is probably the wisest thing I've read in a long while? :lol: 



RegalCharm said:


> He sure didn't mind being a male to much when he married a woman and started making kids with her.


Regal, it happens. One of my friends is gender neutral. She didn't realize she was gender neutral until she tried to conform and live her life as a woman. She was in a long term relationship with a man, she fostered two children and then she decided one day that being gender neutral was what made her happy. So it does happen, people constantly change. 



GreySorrel said:


> It is my opinion, same as what others said is theirs. I may not like others opinions or views, but I respect that they said it and responded. Not going to sit here and say someone is a "transphobe" or what not, nor am I going to call names, that isn't right in a debate or a group airing their views.
> 
> And just because Bruce looks like a woman and took a female's name, he STILL has a penis...and his DNA will always be male...
> 
> Courageous? No...courage is a fire fighter or EMT running into a burning building to rescue a person, courage is dying with dignity when you know there is no other option and doing so with grace, courage is a soldier fighting over seas for our freedom, courage is a battered woman leaving her abusive husband/boyfriend and finding it in herself to stand up and say no more. Those are some examples of courage....





GreySorrel said:


> I don't think I am offended...I have already said I am tired of hearing about his new life....to me personally this is not newsworthy....but then again, I care more about real world issues....


I'm bothered by these statements. My friend that I mentioned in a previous post has been put in the hospital twice by ignorant 'people'. One time he was in a coma for a month. Until you have had a close friend or family member, or ever watched a person go through the torture that our society puts on the LGBT community please refrain from saying they are anything other than 'heros'. 

When he woke up he didn't wake up angry or hateful. He woke up and said that he was sad that they felt the need to harm a fellow human being. That was time one. Time two he ended up on my doorstep at midnight beat to a bloody pulp and after that particular hospital visit he became an outspoken advocate for LGBT rights and support groups. 

The problem and the reason why this is newsworthy is that these cases are not rare. They happen every day and to every extent. Heck, he STILL comes home sometimes beat up or gets threatening calls. Do you know what the authorities do? They laugh and tell him to shape up his act. 

Tell me that someone who does not voice their connection to LGBT or their decisions and lifestyle and gets ridiculed and physically threatened or harmed every day (or at least risks that) is NOT a hero. Tell me that the people who strive for social acceptance and equality are less of a hero than an EMT or firefighter. 

My father, grandfather, uncles and cousins are all ex-military. When someone made the comment that these activist LGBT members were not heroes and basically barely people my father stood at attention and said: "You seem to forget that your soldiers are over seas fighting for the rights of ALL Americans, and trying to ensure that ALL Americans are protected and feel safe at home." 

We won't be America if we deny equal rights and safety to LGBT members.


----------



## JCnGrace

It doesn't bother me if hes want to become shes or shes want to become hes but after watching Bruce's interview with Diane Sawyer it did make me wonder if he was just doing this for the attention. In the interview he said he's never been attracted to men, loved his wives, had no problems sexually, and a few other things that added to that thought and I can't specifically remember now. All in all he sounded more like a man who enjoys cross dressing than he did a transgender. 

I will say I haven't looked into it anymore than that interview so there could be other things that weren't covered, said or were edited out.


----------



## Foxhunter

I dislike these reality shows and never bother to watch them. They are not 'reality' at all. 

I have been Chanel hopping and watched a few minutes or, fallen asleep and woken and one is on. When you get the 'real' housewives and see the women I have to wonder - not many housewives I know of spend their time bitching and drinking, in the beauty salons etc. they are rushing around some holding down a job, caring for the home, driving children to various activities, holding down a job, they don't have time for three hour luncheons or the energy or money to attend the expensive charity events. 

Haven't a clue who this man/woman is. He is not the first to transgender nor will he be the last. Seems from what has been said that he is just making money from it.


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## Speed Racer

What some of you fail to realize is that gender identity is completely separate from sexuality. Gays and lesbians are comfortable with their genders, they're just not attracted to the opposite sex.

Being transgender means the person feels their GENDER is wrong, not their sexuality. Caitlyn has said she's attracted to women, and that's not going to change. So there's something else for people to get up in arms about; a transgender lesbian.

As far as being entitled to your opinion, that is untrue. You're entitled to an INFORMED opinion, which means actual research and at least a rudimentary understanding of the issues. No one is entitled to remain ignorant and call it an opinion.


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## gigem88

I am so sick of hearing about this, what a laughing stock our country has become to other countries. The worst is ESPN giving him the courageous award. Nothing courageous compared to others fighting for their lives and continuing to live despite their staring at death's door. I don't give a rat's behind whether people believe they are a man or woman, but there are more important world issues to worry about. Let him go to the middle east and see how accepting they are!


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## churumbeque

GreySorrel said:


> Nope...Bruce is Bruce and always will be Bruce because his DNA will never change...
> 
> Yes, live and let live and don't invite everyone into your home to know every move you make, say, breath, do, or sleep with. There is a big difference. Don't want people to say something negative, don't share it with the world because not everyone will agree.
> 
> That is called an opinion....everyone is entitled to it regardless of whether we agree or not. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, nor does it mean I need to be called names that are just not true.


He was forced to share it because he doesn't have any privacy. If he was just a normal person we wouldn't even know about it.


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## churumbeque

JCnGrace said:


> It doesn't bother me if hes want to become shes or shes want to become hes but after watching Bruce's interview with Diane Sawyer it did make me wonder if he was just doing this for the attention. In the interview he said he's never been attracted to men, loved his wives, had no problems sexually, and a few other things that added to that thought and I can't specifically remember now. All in all he sounded more like a man who enjoys cross dressing than he did a transgender.
> 
> I will say I haven't looked into it anymore than that interview so there could be other things that weren't covered, said or were edited out.


I can't imagine he would go to this extreme for attention. I got the impression that he may be a lesbian now that he is a woman.


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## boots

I don't have TV. For more than ten years. And, I'm weary of hearing about this fellow.

What he chooses to do in private, with his privates, should be private!

My question is: What is the fascination with celebrities? They contribute NOTHING beyond a little entertainment. Beyond that, why anyone cares what they wear, where they go, or what their opinions are on anything, is truly beyond me.


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## Rainaisabelle

I skipped through some of the posts but i would like to give me 2 cents worth. 

I have a friend who is transgender she went male to female. I have known this person for maybe 7 years ? All of that time she was man. She came out last year and we were so happy for her as this is obviously a huge deal. Don't get me wrong it was hard to understand and adjust to sometimes we would have problems with what to say and sometimes it would be uncomfortable when she came with us to the ladies room. But eventually it just became what it was end of story.

I guess that eventually this will just become what it is and that's that? I totally support LBGT, I am happy that caitlyn has come out to be who she truly is and is a spokesperson for the transgender community. Reality is though that this doesn't effect anyone's lives so why bother getting upset about it?


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## Kotori

Some of the replies in this thread really shock me. Before making a definitive statement that XX=female and XY=male, we should look at a few of the different issues that can happen. XX male syndrome. According to GreySorrel's definition, they would not be true men, as they are sterile. Yet, they wouldn't be female either, since they still have their male bits, despite having breasts. What would you call them, GreySorrel? Would they be the gender they appear to be, male, or the gender they are DNA? Would they use the men or the women's restroom?

Or Klinefelter syndrome, also known as XXY. The men affected are again sterile, with breasts. In both cases, they can be 'fixed' to look like 'normal' men, but that would be going against God's plan for them, wouldn't it? 

Also diverting from the standard XY, is XYY. Phenotypically identical to 'normal' men, but their DNA is different, so therefore, not male.

I guess it boils down to, there is not only two genders, even if we just go into the physical possibilities, and only looking at DNA. When the mind is brought in, even more possibilities appear.


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## natisha

I'd date him...um, her.


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## karliejaye

natisha said:


> I'd date him...um, her.


Oh phew, I am glad I'm not the only one! :lol:


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## natisha

karliejaye said:


> Oh phew, I am glad I'm not the only one! :lol:


Let me clarify that. I'd date him now but not after the final surgery, which he may never get.

I've watched the Kardashians a few times, mainly because by comparison I felt normal. :wink: To me Bruce was the only one who wasn't dramatic. I hope he's happy with whatever he decides to do with his life.


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## beau159

Kotori said:


> Some of the replies in this thread really shock me. Before making a definitive statement that XX=female and XY=male, we should look at a few of the different issues that can happen. XX male syndrome. According to GreySorrel's definition, they would not be true men, as they are sterile. Yet, they wouldn't be female either, since they still have their male bits, despite having breasts. What would you call them, GreySorrel? Would they be the gender they appear to be, male, or the gender they are DNA? Would they use the men or the women's restroom?
> 
> Or Klinefelter syndrome, also known as XXY. The men affected are again sterile, with breasts. In both cases, they can be 'fixed' to look like 'normal' men, but that would be going against God's plan for them, wouldn't it?
> 
> Also diverting from the standard XY, is XYY. Phenotypically identical to 'normal' men, but their DNA is different, so therefore, not male.
> 
> I guess it boils down to, there is not only two genders, even if we just go into the physical possibilities, and only looking at DNA. When the mind is brought in, even more possibilities appear.


I was going to ask this exact same question of the OP but you beat me to it!


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## alexischristina

gigem88 said:


> I am so sick of hearing about this, what a laughing stock our country has become to other countries. The worst is ESPN giving him the courageous award. Nothing courageous compared to others fighting for their lives and continuing to live despite their staring at death's door. I don't give a rat's behind whether people believe they are a man or woman, but there are more important world issues to worry about. Let him go to the middle east and see how accepting they are!


What isn't courageous about Caitlyn's transition? You say what's courageous is people living whilst staring at deaths door... do you realize what the suicide rate is for transgender people? And if you're one of those who think suicide is a manifestation of weakness... do you know what the homicide rate is? How many transgender people are MURDERED for being transgender (or how many gays are murdered for being gay, etc). The average lifespan of a transgender person is 30 - 32 years. This IS an important world issue. People are killing themselves and being killed because the USA and Canada (and other Westernized countries) are NOT accepting of transgender people. Why? Is it because there's a lack of representation and a surplus of ignorance? I'm a firm believer that ignorance breeds violence and while Caitlyn may not be the ideal spokesperson of the transgender community, her visibility IS a big deal.

I have a friend who, whilst in high school, identified publicly as a female because that's what was on his documentation. After he turned 18 he began the official transition, and now identifies as a man, including on paper. We lived and went to school in an upper middle class neighbourhood, as a CHILD he was hospitalized multiple times because he was jumped and beaten in his own neighbourhood. He couldn't use the bathrooms at school because the boys would harass him, and he didn't feel comfortable using the womens' bathroom. Gym class was a nightmare because how was he supposed to use the locker rooms? And you try to tell me that transgender people aren't courageous...




Rainaisabelle said:


> I guess that eventually this will just become what it is and that's that? I totally support LBGT, I am happy that caitlyn has come out to be who she truly is and is a spokesperson for the transgender community. Reality is though that this doesn't effect anyone's lives so why bother getting upset about it?



It may not affect your life directly, but Caitlyn's public transformation affects many people including the rest of the transgender community who are severely lacking in the department of transgender public figures.


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## aubie

The award given by espn is the Author Ash award. Since he faced many of the same issues at the time, I am okay with it.


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## TessaMay

GreySorrel said:


> I have already said I am tired of hearing about his new life....


 You're tired of hearing about "his" new life so you started a thread about it. Because you will definitely not hear more about it that way. It's a great way to distance yourself *sarasm*




GreySorrel said:


> to me personally this is not newsworthy....


 Then don't watch programs about it. Don't open and read articles about it. Don't talk about it. Hit 'ignore' on facebook threads. Don't start Horseforum threads about it. 

It is only a part of your life if you let it be. Instead of distancing yourself, you jumped in thigh deep and then started crying about how it was being pushed on you. 




GreySorrel said:


> but then again, I care more about real world issues....


 Like it or not, this is a real world issue. In the end, this isn't about the Kardashians or any other celebrity, it's about the transgender community, their acceptance (or lack thereof) and how you treat humans who are different then you. It's about a large portion of the population being ok deigning other humans the basic rights they enjoy every day because they are different. Caitlyn has merely highlighted this issue by coming out as a woman.


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## Saskia

I don't follow celebrity news, I don't even own a TV, but if Bruce Jenner transitioning to Caitlin Jenner makes just one scared little boy look up and for once feel that he's not alone, that he's not wrong then I think having this as a news article is worth it.

It might not mean much to people, but on average about one in ten high school students attempts suicide. For transgender people one in two people have attempted suicide before they're 20. Having one celebrity transition could actually give people hope.


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## bkylem

Let's first recognize that Bruce Jenner is still Bruce Jenner. He is undergoing a slow transformation, but to date he is simply a man dressed as a woman on the cover of Vogue. He hasn't legally changed his name nor has he changed his gender.
What he has done is bring attention to the decision making process that so many people in our society either openly accept or live in fear of. He should be applauded for that whether he continues along his own path or not.


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## bkylem

bkylem said:


> Let's first recognize that Bruce Jenner is still Bruce Jenner. He is undergoing a slow transformation, but to date he is simply a man dressed as a woman on the cover of Vogue. He hasn't legally changed his name nor has he changed his gender.
> What he has done is bring attention to the decision making process that so many people in our society either openly accept or live in fear of. He should be applauded for that whether he continues along his own path or not.


It appears I was wrong in saying that he had not legally changed his name. According to all reports he did in fact change it to Brucelda.

Sorry.


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## alexischristina

bkylem said:


> Let's first recognize that Bruce Jenner is still Bruce Jenner. He is undergoing a slow transformation, but to date he is simply a man dressed as a woman on the cover of Vogue. He hasn't legally changed his name nor has he changed his gender.
> What he has done is bring attention to the decision making process that so many people in our society either openly accept or live in fear of. He should be applauded for that whether he continues along his own path or not.


Or perhaps we should recognize that Caitlyn Jenner has made a public request to be recognized as Caitlyn Jenner (not Brucelda, not sure where you got that as the only places I've seen "Brucelda Jenner" posts are the internet... where people are using it to make fun of her transition). Caitlyn has said that she identifies as a woman. I'm not sure how someone can applaud the transition but refuse to accept the decisions and requests made by the _person_ behind it.


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## bkylem

alexischristina said:


> Or perhaps we should recognize that Caitlyn Jenner has made a public request to be recognized as Caitlyn Jenner (not Brucelda, not sure where you got that as the only places I've seen "Brucelda Jenner" posts are the internet... where people are using it to make fun of her transition). Caitlyn has said that she identifies as a woman. I'm not sure how someone can applaud the transition but refuse to accept the decisions and requests made by the _person_ behind it.


I checked several sources again and though they seemed legit, the Brucelda name must have been used to ridicule him. You were right.


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## NBEventer

How is this not newsworthy? I think gender identity is a BIG thing for the news right now. Kids/Teens and even adults are harassed on a daily basis because of gender identity. People are committing suicide daily because of these things.

By bringing it to the front page of the news is helping open peoples eyes to the struggles of gender identity.

Is it not said that if you are not happy with who you are, do something to change it? Is that not exactly what Caitlyn has done? And by doing so she is showing others who have the same identity struggles that it is okay to come out and be happy about who they want to be.

The closed mindedness of some people here makes me seriously sick. Though it in no way surprises me. To those offended by being called bigots, well i'm sorry but that is exactly what you are being.


----------



## Saddlebag

As a decathlon winning athlete, Jenner would have, at that time and a long time afterwards, been under a lot of pressure to be a "guy". Winning this means sponsors jump on the bandwagon and turn the athlete into a multi millionaire. To confess he felt he was a woman, the sponsors would have dumped him like a hot potato. I remember gays feeling pressured entering into heterosexual relationships but it wasn't who they were. Same with star hockey and football players only nowadays the leagues wouldn't dare dump them.


----------



## Horse Poor

Saddlebag said:


> As a decathlon winning athlete, Jenner would have, at that time and a long time afterwards, been under a lot of pressure to be a "guy". Winning this means sponsors jump on the bandwagon and turn the athlete into a multi millionaire. To confess he felt he was a woman, the sponsors would have dumped him like a hot potato. I remember gays feeling pressured entering into heterosexual relationships but it wasn't who they were. Same with star hockey and football players only nowadays the leagues wouldn't dare dump them.


Now what does that tell you about his true character? His "coming out" has nothing whatsoever to do with helping any cause but his own. As long as the big bucks were rolling in as a male athlete, he was fine with staying in the proverbial closet.


----------



## boots

NBEventer said:


> The closed mindedness of some people here makes me seriously sick. Though it in no way surprises me. To those offended by being called bigots, well i'm sorry but that is exactly what you are being.


Not sure why it is considered bigoted by anyone if a person objects to a celeb dominating the news.

I consider starvation, epidemics, war and peace to be more newsworthy than anything about Jenner. Unless he can solve starvation, cure epidemics, stop wars and create peace for all. 

But, my disgust with the obsession with anything celeb, isn't limited to Jenner. I would rather gender issues, and any other world problem, be presented by everyday people and supported by well-known scientific persons who are knowledgeable and credible in the area in question. Not pop stars. 

The obsession with, and credence given, pop stars is so very odd. 

Study something serious, for goodness sakes. Get beyond sound bites and photo ops. Dig deeper. Feed the brain!


----------



## Kotori

Horse Poor said:


> Now what does that tell you about his true character? His "coming out" has nothing whatsoever to do with helping any cause but his own. As long as the big bucks were rolling in as a male athlete, he was fine with staying in the proverbial closet.


 Honestly, I don't think any of us will ever know his real reason for coming out. Could he have felt pressured to stay a man after his Olympic win? Could he have been intimidated in the all-around crappy way trans people were treated then? Could he be trying to get back in the limelight?

I can't say anything about his reasons, but I feel changing genders would be extreme, even by todays standards.

Boots, I'd just like to say that I completely understand being tired of hearing about celebrities, and that isn't what sounds so close minded, but rather the fact that so maybe people don't believe that trans people are 'real'. While it is using a celebrity as a springboard, this is really just a way to talk about LGBT issues and see how people react to them


----------



## Roman

I think someone had said on here we're using our faith as an excuse, and are close-minded. 

My faith is not my excuse. It is my REASON.

You can say I'm close-minded. I like Bruce Jenner, but I do not support what he's doing.


----------



## Kotori

Roman said:


> I think someone had said on here we're using our faith as an excuse, and are close-minded.
> 
> My faith is not my excuse. It is my REASON.
> 
> You can say I'm close-minded. I like Bruce Jenner, but I do not support what he's doing.


 Where in the bible does it say to judge someone over their choices? 

Matthew 7:1 'Do not judge, or you too will be judged'

And I believe the part about surgeries was already gone over. If not, I'd like to point out all the children, including my sister, that needed surgeries or would have died. God might have made them that way, but He also gave us doctors that can fix it. Why should Jenner be any different? Because he is an adult?


----------



## MyBayQHFilly

celestejasper13 said:


> Just because you don't agree with something someone says (such as 'I am a woman') does not make their opinion any less valid, nor does it mean the they had a choice over how they feel and are.
> By what standards are you classifying 'male'? If your only understanding of the role gender plays is its use in reproduction, then, as karliejaye put it, you are missing the point a little.
> Alternatively, if then, you agree that the gender you are born with in your mind is a part of who you are, then Caitlyn Jenner is as much of a woman as you or I.
> What makes it newsworthy is that she has chosen to present herself as who she really is, despite the bigoted opinions that are being raised because of it. The media is fuelled by public interest, and it certainly interested you enough to start a rant about it!
> 
> 
> 
> God also gave us free will - and nowhere in the Bible does it call out transgenderism as sinful.
> In fact, much more emphasised in the Bible is the belief that you should love your neighbours (like the Good Samaritan) and Jesus' Golden Rule of 'treat others how you wish to be treated'. Religion and other people's life decisions are perfectly able to get along fine, if you choose to follow the loving side of your religion, and as long as you don't use your faith as an excuse to spread your close minded opinions.


If he decided he was a rutabaga, would I have to agree and gush over how "brave" he is or risk being veggiephobic? He can never be a woman and he's mentally ill. Are We Allowed To Call Transabled People Mentally Disturbed? Lets chew on that for a bit, shall we?


----------



## alexischristina

MyBayQHFilly said:


> If he decided he was a rutabaga, would I have to agree and gush over how "brave" he is or risk being veggiephobic? He can never be a woman and he's mentally ill. Are We Allowed To Call Transabled People Mentally Disturbed? Lets chew on that for a bit, shall we?


That is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard.

How do _you_ define womanhood?


----------



## Speed Racer

Why is she mentally ill? Transgenders have been around since the dawn of humankind. Pretty flippant to call them 'mentally ill', just because they don't fit in with your rigid mindset. 

I consider people who let someone else do their thinking as mentally ill, such as parishioners who base their lives on a book written by a bunch of power mad men, preached by another man as 'the one truth'. There are many true paths to God, but none of them preach hated and intolerance. Those are evil's words.

Beware of false prophets.


----------



## Roman

Kotori said:


> Where in the bible does it say to judge someone over their choices?
> 
> Matthew 7:1 'Do not judge, or you too will be judged'
> 
> And I believe the part about surgeries was already gone over. If not, I'd like to point out all the children, including my sister, that needed surgeries or would have died. God might have made them that way, but He also gave us doctors that can fix it. Why should Jenner be any different? Because he is an adult?





> "Some cite Matthew 7:1 as proof that we should do no judging whatsoever: "Judge not, that you be not judged." Here, the Greek word for "judge" is krino, meaning to condemn, avenge, ****, sentence, or levy a punishment. Christ plainly says that if we condemn others, we will be condemned ourselves."


I am not condemning him. I am not saying "LOL, he's going to Hell!" I do NOT support what he has done and I never will. I don't hate him, but I do not agree with what he's doing. 

1 Corinthians 6:9


----------



## Horse Poor

"E! just released the first promo for Caitlyn Jenner's new reality show

E! Entertainment has just released the first promo for Caitlyn Jenner's new reality show, "I am Cait."

The show will be an eight-part, one-hour documentary series that will show Jenner's transition and how it affects her friends and family. It will premiere on Sunday, July 26, at 9 p.m.

Read more: Caitlyn Bruce Jenner E! reality show promo - Business Insider


----------



## Canterklutz

NBEventer said:


> How is this not newsworthy? I think gender identity is a BIG thing for the news right now. Kids/Teens and even adults are harassed on a daily basis because of gender identity. People are committing suicide daily because of these things.
> 
> By bringing it to the front page of the news is helping open peoples eyes to the struggles of gender identity.
> 
> Is it not said that if you are not happy with who you are, do something to change it? Is that not exactly what Caitlyn has done? And by doing so she is showing others who have the same identity struggles that it is okay to come out and be happy about who they want to be.
> 
> The closed mindedness of some people here makes me seriously sick. Though it in no way surprises me. To those offended by being called bigots, well i'm sorry but that is exactly what you are being.


Not even just harassed. Dehumanized, deemed "its," hunted down like animals, having their genitals cut off and mutilated by assailants, set afire, murdered even by family members, denied life saving treatment and basic healthcare just to list a few...

How dare a celebrity attempt to empower and shed light to a population which has been dehumanized and beset with adversity...


----------



## Horse Poor

FWIW, I think this entire situation sounds completely contrived. I sincerely hope that after the attention is gone, the cameras aren't rolling and no one cares about Bruce/Caitlin Jenner anymore, that he will still believe he made the right decision.


----------



## MyBayQHFilly

alexischristina said:


> That is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard.
> 
> How do _you_ define womanhood?


Being born with the XX chromosomes. You know, science.


----------



## MyBayQHFilly

alexischristina said:


> Or perhaps we should recognize that Caitlyn Jenner has made a public request to be recognized as Caitlyn Jenner (not Brucelda, not sure where you got that as the only places I've seen "Brucelda Jenner" posts are the internet... where people are using it to make fun of her transition). Caitlyn has said that she identifies as a woman. I'm not sure how someone can applaud the transition but refuse to accept the decisions and requests made by the _person_ behind it.


I don't care what Bruce Jenner, in his delusional mental illness, "identifies" as. He's a man, he will always be a man and I will NOT buy into this gender fluid, s/he claptrap.


----------



## alexischristina

MyBayQHFilly said:


> Being born with the XX chromosomes. You know, science.


But we've already had several people debunk that assumption. Women are born with XY chromosomes for several reasons and we don't call them men. In other cases, people are born with extra chromosomes and we don't call them its (unless you actually do, in which case, shame on you). So clearly manhood / womanhood isn't as simple as XX or XY.


----------



## dkb811

Roman said:


> I think someone had said on here we're using our faith as an excuse, and are close-minded.
> 
> My faith is not my excuse. It is my REASON.
> 
> You can say I'm close-minded. I like Bruce Jenner, but I do not support what he's doing.


I commend you for standing up for your beliefs, I haven't read through all of the posts, but it appears you are outnumbered, so you are my brave hero!! Of course you don't wish him any ill will or harm, as I don't either. Just because you don't support what he is doing doesn't mean you are judging him, I get that! It's clear to me you have no hatred in your heart towards him.


----------



## FlyGap

He's not a hero. But good for him and anyone else that wants to do this, I and most others could care less.

What I don't agree with is making a media spectacle over gay and all other deviant forms of sexuality. Don't take my use of deviant out of context, less than 5 percent of the population is gay or whatever, but according to polls people believe its closer to 25%! Good grief.
There are equally as many people that "like" balloons or other "items" as people who like the same sex etc. but rarely does it crop up as mainstream news. It's all about love right?

And as far as mental anguish, support, and blah blah blah, nobody really cares. There are infinitely more people with "regular" mental issues and depression, especially for our veterans, mainstream, why is the majority of support for the deviant population? You don't see them on the cover of magazines and lauded as heros, they are largely forgotten in comparison. Unless it's to sell them some form of drug.

Again, who cares, take this carp off the media, quit focusing on such a small minority on television, and let's lead our lives and focus on those that really need our support and awareness, true heros, that make a difference in this world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman

dkb811 said:


> I commend you for standing up for your beliefs, I haven't read through all of the posts, but it appears you are outnumbered, so you are my brave hero!! Of course you don't wish him any ill will or harm, as I don't either. Just because you don't support what he is doing doesn't mean you are judging him, I get that! It's clear to me you have no hatred in your heart towards him.


Thank you very much!


----------



## alexischristina

dkb811 said:


> I commend you for standing up for your beliefs, I haven't read through all of the posts, but it appears you are outnumbered, so you are my brave hero!! Of course you don't wish him any ill will or harm, as I don't either. Just because you don't support what he is doing doesn't mean you are judging him, I get that! It's clear to me you have no hatred in your heart towards him.


I want to be clear here that I don't judge or hold resentment toward any person who does not agree with transgenderism because of their religious beliefs, so long as they respect transgendered peoples' autonomy to do what they choose with their own bodies and respect their desire to go by a certain name, or identify as a certain gender.

You can choose to believe what you wish so long as your actions or your words aren't degrading, hurting or disrespecting another person.


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## Kotori

MyBayQHFilly said:


> Being born with the XX chromosomes. You know, science.


xx male syndrome is a thing, as is XY woman syndrome. You'll have to find a better way of defining women.


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## boots

Kotori said:


> xx male syndrome is a thing, as is XY woman syndrome. You'll have to find a better way of defining women.


Basic gender is a "syndrome" now, to some?

Something like Down's syndrome. With deficits to be treated and compensated for?


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## CaliforniaDreaming

boots said:


> Basic gender is a "syndrome" now, to some?
> 
> Something like Down's syndrome. With deficits to be treated and compensated for?


Actually, yes. 

The definition of a syndrome, as defined by Wikipedia, is 



> A syndrome is a set of medical signs and symptoms that are correlated with each other and, often, with a specific disease. The word derives from the Greek σύνδρομον, meaning "concurrence".


The aforementioned XY female situation is called CAIS which stands for Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.


----------



## stevenson

IMO .. you are born female or male. He produces testosterone therefore male. He chose to add breast and estrogen. 
He could have stayed a male, no breast, grown long hair, worn makeup and worn a dress and 10 inch hi heels if he chose. Lots of men do that.
what it comes down to.. is what he/she did have any affect on me ? my family ? will it change how i live my life... ? NOPE . I change the channel when it comes on. If I see post on my FB , I delete them. Just as I delete and do not watch about his step daughters.


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## HowClever

You know what, I can't just leave this be any longer. 

First and foremost, perhaps if you don't want to hear about it anymore, change the channel, close the newspaper, hit the little red x on your internet browser. What I wouldn't suggest is starting a thread on a forum with thousands of members, believe it or not, you're probably going to hear more about it that way. 

Secondly, how in the heck does the fact that somebody else is transgender have any effect on your life? You know those who's lives it might effect? The kids that feel like their stuck in the wrong body. The kids lost and confused trying to understand why everything they are supposed to be feels wrongs. The kids that feel like they're the only ones in the world. 

Thirdly, those saying it should be kept private, how exactly do you suggest Caitlyn and her family keep it private when the media is stuck in their face 24/7. 

Fourth, not everybody in the world follows YOUR religion and therefore not everybody in the world is interested in being governed by YOUR religion. Stop thinking you get to spout whatever bigoted BS you like and palm it off by saying "the bible says..." It's not gonna fly and it doesn't make you look any less judgemental. 

I'm so disappointed in the things I've seen posted in this thread and the people that posted them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer

If I recall correctly, we have a long time member who is transgendered. She is male to female. I can only wonder how she feels reading this. Knowing a community she enjoys has members considering her mentally ill.

Its moments like this where I am almost embarrassed to be Christian.


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## HowClever

Oh, I forgot another point too. You do realise there are all different kinds of bravery and courage right? Firefighters are brave, soldiers are brave, police, nurses, etc all brave. Somebody fighting severe depression is brave. Somebody preparing to leave an abusive relationship is brave. And somebody who stands up and says "this is who I really am" knowing full well the close minded comments they're going to wear is brave too. 

Bravery is not a competition.


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## Speed Racer

HowClever said:


> I'm so disappointed in the things I've seen posted in this thread and the people that posted them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too, HC. I never knew there were so many bigoted, narrow minded, hateful people on this BB. 

Good that they've shown their true colors, as we can better avoid them in the future.


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## boots

Speed Racer said:


> Me too, HC. I never knew there were so many bigoted, narrow minded, hateful people on this BB.
> 
> Good that they've shown their true colors, as we can better avoid them in the future.


By expressing the opinion that is different than a pop star's, a person is a bigot? 

By disagreeing with a pop star, a person is a bigot?

I don't want to hear about their personal decisions, because I believe the person behind them is disingenuous, that makes me a bigot? 



^^^ Examples of the problem I have with the focus on pop cultural icons. They are held in awe. Like they are especially important.

And, I can't just change the channel. I don't even have TV! But it sickens and worries me that so many are focused on some dude/dudette they don't even know and never will, but they can't even balance a check book, live by a budget, know what issues are going on in their town, can't be active as advocates in the horse industry, remember when their last tetanus shot was... But, by gosh, they know what led up to some guy's decision to try to be a woman. 

Fluff! A nation of people whose brains are obese with fluff.

The people you see and interact with today in your life are more important.


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## DuffyDuck

I am so glad that I am surrounded by my wonderful family and friends, some of whom are gay, bi, transexual, transgender.. whatever label you want to put on them. Goodness knows, at least they keep their thoughts to themselves and resolve their issues with hugs and a bar of chocolate.

It's made me really sad to read some of this thread.

I did see something on facebook.

A doctor gives a five year old an injection. He tells him "You're so brave!". Then the door is slammed open and the internet shouts at the doctor "He's not brave, he's not a soldier!"

Everyone fights their own personal battles. Does it effect me? No. I have my own battles to fight. Again, I'm glad I'm surrounded by those who love me no matter what to help fight them with me.

I'm happy for Caitlyn. I don't follow the family, but why wouldn't you be happy for someone who finally has peace within themselves and is happy? You don't have to read it, but I hope that those who struggle with their own identity manage to take something from him/ her.


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## Speed Racer

I hold no one in awe, I have no idols, and no heroes other than my deceased parents. I couldn't tell you the most famous pop star's name, because I don't know or care.

You're allowed to have a dissenting opinion, but pronouncing the person 'mentally ill' because they don't follow your narrow description of normal is neither Christian nor tolerant. 

I don't care about the Kardashians, but I remember Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner from my teenage years and I wish her the best. Her decision has nothing to do with my life, and it has nothing to do with yours. If being public with her transgender transformation helps even ONE young person realize their feelings are valid and worthwhile, then it's done some good.

I was raised in a deeply religious family. My parents loved and served God, but they didn't blindly follow the more bigoted tenets, and treated everyone with love and respect. They were raised in a much more rigid and less tolerant time, but somehow managed to understand that life is never black and white, and that all people have a right to live peacefully without ridicule and hatred. _That's_ the definition of Christianity I grew up with, and try to continue to practice.


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## Roman

Speed Racer said:


> Me too, HC. I never knew there were so many bigoted, narrow minded, hateful people on this BB.
> 
> Good that they've shown their true colors, as we can better avoid them in the future.


Oh how kind. Glad to know I'm narrow minded, hateful, and bigoted. I'll add those to my labels. 

You expect us, those that don't support what Bruce Jenner has done, to change our beliefs and say "Horray for him, soo happy". You expect US to respect YOUR opinion or Bruce Jenner's yet you don't RESPECT our opinion and turn around and say we are HATEFUL, BIGOTED, narrow minded, and whatever else you probably thought of. 

We are outnumbered it seems, we who don't support Bruce, but I WILL NOT back down, I will not go against the Word of God no matter how much you think its phony and a made up fairytale. Those here that don't support Bruce's decision, I HIGHLY doubt that they HATE Bruce. I'm sure they love him like the rest of you do, but we do not support his choice.

You can stick as many labels onto me, but I won't change my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck

Roman said:


> Oh how kind. Glad to know I'm narrow minded, hateful, and bigoted. I'll add those to my labels.
> 
> You expect us, those that don't support what Bruce Jenner has done, to change our beliefs and say "Horray for him, soo happy". You expect US to respect YOUR opinion or Bruce Jenner yet you don't RESPECT our opinion and turn around and say we are HATEFUL, BIGOTED, narrow minded, and whatever else you probably thought of.
> 
> We are outnumbered it seems, we who don't support Bruce, but I WILL NOT back down, I will not go against the Word of God no matter how much you think its phony and a made up fairytale.
> 
> You can stick as many labels onto me, but I won't change my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I hope one day, when you perhaps have children of your own, or when a close friend or family member may go through this you learn to be happy for them.

I find it sad you can't support anyone in their happiness. That actually cuts me to the core, that someone would be like that. What a sad, sad world we live in. Maybe I take the small things for granted, but when someone smiles, it makes me smile. When someone is happy, I find myself happy. 

I'm also there to help make my friends and family happy no matter what and support them, even if I don't understand, no matter what.

I hope one day you can open your mind and be more accepting of the ever changing world around you.


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## dkb811

I fail to see Bruce Jenner condemned to hell or called names in the name of religion. However, if our opinion isn't inline with yours, we are called names. As far as the media being stuck in their face 24/7 Yes, they have asked for it.We all live different lifestyles, and that is okay. No, we shouldn't ridicule, humiliate or cause harm to ANY human, but we don't have to like it!


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## karliejaye

I am fine with folks disagreeing with her choice. In my eyes 98% of the posts in opposition have been respectful. There are a handful that I thought were out of line, but really guys, I think this has been a largely respectful debate. 
The one point that does bother me is comparing Caitlyn's choice to mental illness. They are two utterly different things. And then to think if it is a mental illness that we shouldn't condone it and should hide her away...what does that say about society's view of folks struggling with mental illness? Ouch!

ETA, please know, just because my opinion differs from yours in a few areas, I will still respect your opinion on other topics, too. You don't have to share my thoughts on gender fluidity to know good horse conformation, or have some great ideas on barn maintenance!


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## Roman

dkb811 said:


> I fail to see Bruce Jenner condemned to hell or called names in the name of religion. However, if our opinion isn't inline with yours, we are called names. As far as the media being stuck in their face 24/7 Yes, they have asked for it.We all live different lifestyles, and that is okay. No, we shouldn't ridicule, humiliate or cause harm to ANY human, but we don't have to like it!


Amen. :clap:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

Roman said:


> I WILL NOT back down, I will not go against the Word of God no matter how much you think its phony and a made up fairytale.


You ARE going against the word of GOD, though. Remember, it is not YOUR place to offer a judgement on anyone. THOSE are GOD'S words....Judge not lest YOU be judged.

You say you follow the new testament, I say you don't.


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## NBEventer

To follow the New Testament you need to be far more open minded.

I follow the New Testament and I am pro gay marriage, pro choice(I would never have an abottion myself unless it was for life threatening reasons, but why should I stand in the way of someone who wants to go that route). I also believe people should be able to do what they need to do to be happy, as long as it's not breaking the law.

It is not our place to judge someone. That is Gods place. God says we should respect others and not be judgemental. 

I find people who claim to be Christian some of the most judgemental people. Which makes me shake my head because it says in the bible that we shouldn't.

This is why I don't follow organized religion. I do belong to a church but I rarely go. Thankfully my minister is very open minded. A rareity in Baptist religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye

fftopic:

Isn't judging people for being judgmental also a misuse of judgment which should be reserved for God? :wink:

ETA: and now I am finding myself in a neverending loop of reasoning. How can anyone truly hold NO judgment? On a day to day basis we all judge others in some way or another...this is why I opted to stay far away from theology and philosophy and religion.


----------



## Roman

Allison Finch said:


> You ARE going against the word of GOD, though. Remember, it is not YOUR place to offer a judgement on anyone. THOSE are GOD'S words....Judge not lest YOU be judged.
> 
> You say you follow the new testament, I say you don't.


If you read my earlier post...



> "Some cite Matthew 7:1 as proof that we should do no judging whatsoever: "Judge not, that you be not judged." Here, the Greek word for "judge" is krino, meaning to condemn, avenge, ****, sentence, or levy a punishment. Christ plainly says that if we condemn others, we will be condemned ourselves."





> I am not condemning him. I am not saying "LOL, he's going to Hell!" I do NOT support what he has done and I never will. I don't hate him, but I do not agree with what he's doing.


Read 1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind..."

Or Deuteronomy 22:5 - "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."


----------



## HowClever

Sure is lucky that "god" and I aren't pals then hey. Coz I've gotta say any "god" who thinks it's cool to condemn people to eternal ****ation because of who they love or what they do with their body is actually probably not somebody I want to chill with.


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## Saddlebag

It is so nice to not have to endure the stress of agreeing or disagreeing in a case like this, by remaining NEUTRAL.


----------



## Tazzie

I too am sick of seeing this everywhere. BUT not because I have any issues at all with a man becoming a woman. What I can't stand is anything pertaining to the Kartrashians (thanks who ever came up with that lol!) I am SOO tired of seeing this everywhere. Congrats, Jenner is becoming what was felt on the inside all along. It doesn't affect my life at all. Just annoys the crap out of to see it plastered EVERYWHERE I look (I scroll through it on Facebook, etc, and HATE when commercials pop up if we are watching stuff on TV; I don't normally actively seek out stuff about it).

I'm sure a whole lot of it was to gain even more publicity. Why else would there be a show coming out called Call Me Caitlyn (which drives me looney since my name is Caitlyn, and of all the spellings that one was picked). Even better, kids from previous marriages (or maybe just the Jenner kids?) aren't even on it, but guess who is?? You guessed it! The Kartrashians! Fame hungry idiots.

I'm pro gay marriage, pro abortion (though I'd never have one myself), and pro transgender. I don't care if it makes someone happy. My best friend in the world is gay and working on a proposal to his boyfriend. I've been helping with how to ask him.

What I'm tired of seeing is that it is still in the news everywhere. It's gotta die down soon, right? And what about things that should be in there? How about this for example? Have ANY of you heard of this?? Covington-based Bexion to Be Honored at White House | The River City News Probably not. I work in the exact same building as this company, and good friends with the girl who has been doing the bench top research. Shouldn't something as huge as a possible cure for brain cancer be in the news??


----------



## Kotori

karliejaye said:


> fftopic:
> 
> Isn't judging people for being judgmental also a misuse of judgment which should be reserved for God? :wink:
> 
> ETA: and now I am finding myself in a neverending loop of reasoning. How can anyone truly hold NO judgment? On a day to day basis we all judge others in some way or another...this is why I opted to stay far away from theology and philosophy and religion.


 Except that by realizing someone is being judgmental is just an observation, like the sky is blue. It is only when you start looking down on them for being such that you yourself become judgmental. After all, if, as Roman says, non-support can be declared without being judgmental, than it would have to apply the other way as well. 

In general, people are a very, very judgmental species. Every second of every day is spent judging, which is great; it is the basis for all rational thinking. It is only when such thinking and judgments are turned towards other people that it becomes bad. Bad things happen when you stop seeing people as people and just another thing to be forced into perfect molds.


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## natisha

Do we really know the truth? Do we need to?
Jenner has lived in the spotlight for a long time, most of it as a sideline to the freak show family. Now that he's not associated with them so much he can have his own spotlight, be it real or Hollywood. 
I wish Jenner well, be it real or a show or both.


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## Tazzie

natisha said:


> Do we really know the truth? Do we need to?
> Jenner has lived in the spotlight for a long time, most of it as a sideline to the freak show family. Now that he's not associated with them so much he can have his own spotlight, be it real or Hollywood.
> I wish Jenner well, be it real or a show or both.


But he isn't leaving them behind. The Kardasians will be in his show Call Me Caitlyn. So no, he is still associated with them.


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## Zexious

The whole religious aspect of this conversation is driving me nuts.

As I stated before, "your" (the generic "your" here and everywhere else in this post) religion is a script for YOU to live by, not to impose upon others. You don't like transgender individuals? Not a fan of homosexuals or bisexuals or any other type of people who identify as anything other than cis and hetero? Cool. That's fine. I do hope, though, that none of your siblings/children/parents/extended family/friends never come out as anything other than straight. Or, if they do, I hope that you can look past your religious lens and be happy for them.

There is a great quote in Moby **** (from a Christian!) that I feel suits this conversation well... "Better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian." 
...There is so much more to being a "good" person than the label of Christianity, or any other religion.


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## Roman

Zexious said:


> The whole religious aspect of this conversation is driving me nuts.
> 
> As I stated before, "your" (the generic "your" here and everywhere else in this post) religion is a script for YOU to live by, not to impose upon others. You don't like transgender individuals? Not a fan of homosexuals or bisexuals or any other type of people who identify as anything other than cis and hetero? Cool. That's fine. I do hope, though, that none of your siblings/children/parents/extended family/friends never come out as anything other than straight. Or, if they do, I hope that you can look past your religious lens and be happy for them.
> 
> There is a great quote in Moby **** (from a Christian!) that I feel suits this conversation well... "Better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian."
> ...There is so much more to being a "good" person than the label of Christianity, or any other religion.


My cousin is GAY!! You think I hate him? I don't support him being gay but I still love him. 

You want people like me to be happy and respect your beliefs and all the gays, transgenders, etc. Yet you wont respect our beliefs!!! You continue to nip and bite at us.

Have a little respect for others' opinions and beliefs, religious or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

Roman--I was careful to specify that I was not calling anyone specific out in this thread, but rather using the generic "you." But since you (specifically, you) have called me out directly, I will respond directly.

Firstly, no where did I insinuate anyone HATING anyone. Please read posts for what they are, rather than what you assume them to be. Lack of tone or facial expressions leave too much room for assumption, so it is easier to read what is there rather than what isn't.

I have seen many disrespectful comments toward the LGBTQ community in this thread. It isn't fair to preach for respect for all religions and viewpoints when the same courtesy is not being extended.
By that same token, I would like for you to point out for me where you think that I am not being respectful.

This conversation seems to be going in circles.
You say you "do not support what he is doing." I would assert that he doesn't need *your* support.
You question why other transgender people aren't an influence--they are. However, they don't have the platform that he does. Being an Olympic medalist and marrying into even more wealth has given him a platform that the majority of other transgender people (that the majority of /all/ people) simply don't have. It's neither here nor there, and just a matter of circumstance.
You say that if God wanted Caitlyn to be a woman, he would have been born that way: why then has God given us the ability to perform sex changes?

Just food for thought.


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## NBEventer

Zexious said:


> Roman--I was careful to specify that I was not calling anyone specific out in this thread, but rather using the generic "you." But since you (specifically, you) have called me out directly, I will respond directly.
> 
> Firstly, no where did I insinuate anyone HATING anyone. Please read posts for what they are, rather than what you assume them to be. Lack of tone or facial expressions leave too much room for assumption, so it is easier to read what is there rather than what isn't.
> 
> I have seen many disrespectful comments toward the LGBTQ community in this thread. It isn't fair to preach for respect for all religions and viewpoints when the same courtesy is not being extended.
> By that same token, I would like for you to point out for me where you think that I am not being respectful.
> 
> This conversation seems to be going in circles.
> You say you "do not support what he is doing." I would assert that he doesn't need *your* support.
> You question why other transgender people aren't an influence--they are. However, they don't have the platform that he does. Being an Olympic medalist and marrying into even more wealth has given him a platform that the majority of other transgender people (that the majority of /all/ people) simply don't have. It's neither here nor there, and just a matter of circumstance.
> You say that if God wanted Caitlyn to be a woman, he would have been born that way: why then has God given us the ability to perform sex changes?
> 
> Just food for thought.


I wish there was a like button on mobile! This is a really well written reply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

Roman said:


> My cousin is GAY!! You think I hate him? I don't support him being gay but I still love him.
> 
> You want people like me to be happy and respect your beliefs and all the gays, transgenders, etc. Yet you wont respect our beliefs!!! You continue to nip and bite at us.
> 
> Have a little respect for others' opinions and beliefs, religious or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I absolutely respect your right to have your beliefs. It is when you use beliefs not universally accepted and use them to tell people they are sick, evil or condemned to hell that I take exception to.

The people I respect the most are those who hold deep beliefs but don't think it is their right (or DUTY) to foist them on others nor use them to judge.


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## Roman

Allison Finch said:


> I absolutely respect your right to have your beliefs. It is when you use beliefs not universally accepted and use them to tell people they are sick, evil or condemned to hell that I take exception to.
> 
> The people I respect the most are those who hold deep beliefs but don't think it is their right (or DUTY) to foist them on others nor use them to judge.


When have I forced my beliefs on anyone? When have I said that he's sick, evil, and going to Hell?

Yea, I never have. 

You all need to respect others' opinions and beliefs even if they don't go on YOUR terms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

Tazzie said:


> But he isn't leaving them behind. The Kardasians will be in his show Call Me Caitlyn. So no, he is still associated with them.


Yes but they'll be his sideline now. We'll see how long they like that.


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## faiza425

God loved Bruce Jenner. God loves Caitlyn Jenner. God loves everyone regardless of their sexuality, choices, and beliefs. 

Therefore, if I profess to follow God and want to grow more like Him (which I do), then it is my job to love everyone just as he loves me regardless of anything I do. 

When others make a decision, it's none of my business, even if it goes against what I believe. It is not for me to judge. If I don't agree, it does not matter. If I don't support the choice, I still support the person as a human being.


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## churumbeque

Roman said:


> When have I forced my beliefs on anyone? When have I said that he's sick, evil, and going to Hell?
> 
> Yea, I never have.
> 
> You all need to respect others' opinions and beliefs even if they don't go on YOUR terms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's judgements like this from those that believe in the word of God that make me think Christians are not good people.


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## Roman

faiza425 said:


> God loved Bruce Jenner. God loves Caitlyn Jenner. God loves everyone regardless of their sexuality, choices, and beliefs.
> 
> Therefore, if I profess to follow God and want to grow more like Him (which I do), then it is my job to love everyone just as he loves me regardless of anything I do.
> 
> When others make a decision, it's none of my business, even if it goes against what I believe. It is not for me to judge. If I don't agree, it does not matter. If I don't support the choice, I still support the person as a human being.


Exactly what I'm trying to say. :clap:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman

churumbeque said:


> It's judgements like this from those that believe in the word of God that make me think Christians are not good people.


Can you further explain what these "judgements" are that you are talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

Roman said:


> Read 1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind..."
> 
> Or Deuteronomy 22:5 - "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."


You call these passages unbiased and non-judgmental? You bleat about being a good person, but if you live by these hateful tenets and believe that only straight, completely faithful to the CHRISTIAN Bible folks are going to Heaven, then it's going to be a cold, lonely place and not somewhere I want to go.

How many 'good heterosexual Christians' have sex before marriage? That right there is only one tenet and most people, 'good Christians' or not, don't follow. So which is it? You follow your book to the letter or don't go to Heaven, or like most religious folks, pick and choose which rules to follow.

Most bigots always say, 'I'm not bigoted! Some of my dearest friends are black/Muslim/homosexual!', while bashing them out the other side of their mouth. 

Tell me, do you try to 'save' your cousin and turn him from his 'ungodly' ways? If you do, stop. He's not sick or being sinful, and you'll soon find he wants nothing to do with you if you continue to harass him.

The God I serve loves all His children equally, and isn't concerned with what's going on in consenting adults' bedrooms. The religious folks are the only ones worrying themselves over that.


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## Zexious

Faiza--Beautifully said.

Speed--Precisely. 
I love the comment "My -EnterRelationshipHere- is -EnterMinorityHere-!" I think it's so funny... Like, appreciating someone who is black/muslim/gay excuses all the horribly rude comments that are made xD

EDIT--Reworded~


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## DreaMy

The thing is while you (the proverbial you) can say that you (again _proverbial_) love someone despite the fact that they are gay/trans/bi/etc, there are many things that you (yep, proverbial) do to still harm them. 

A friend of our family was disowned by his millionaire father when he came out. This kid was essentially homeless (living with friends) and in high school. His father maintained that he loved this kid and this was for his own good and so he would learn something. He learned that that his family wasn't there for him.

Also we have the same people insisting that this story is worthless and not relevant to them but also insisting that their behavior is a sin or somehow damaging to society?


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## MaximasMommy

I think it's more amazing that the women in his family are so famous. They shop and fight. Woooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I don't know anyone else that can do that! (and get paid millions of dollars)


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## DreaMy

So? Are they doing something to offend you specifically or is it just their very existence? Just because I don't care to know what kind of underwear x celebrity is wearing doesn't mean I get myself in a twist over them broadcasting it. How is it any different than any other TV show?

The reason that celebrities have power is because they have money and they have influence. When Ellen Degeneres came out as lesbian it was a huge leap because she was an icon. When Ellen Degeneres (or any other celebrity) comes out its like taking a mass poll. Everyone has an opinion on it, heck in this thread I'd say at least 90% of the people have prefaced their posts with something along the lines of "I don't watch TV" yet they still have an opinion on this? 

This is what those of us who are pro-LGBT mean when we say that this kind of publicity (_even though it is garnering Brunner and others personal attention_) mean when we say that this is courageous and inspiring to others. People might not care if an "everyday person" is rallying for these rights or comes out, frankly they don't have money or "social" capital. These people do, they are successful and they are people that most can say are decent people with respectable careers etc. You may not think that the Kardashians are human beings but does that discount Brunner because of her association with them? (If their TV personnas are so obviously faked what makes you think it bares _any_ resemblance to what they are like in real life?) Besides it has already been pointed out that Brunner was very successful by herself in the Olympics (are you saying the Olympics are superficial). Again my previous example of Ellen Degeneres: she is quite successful don't you think?


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## EliRose

Tazzie said:


> But he isn't leaving them behind. The Kardasians will be in his show Call Me Caitlyn. So no, he is still associated with them.


She is still associated with them because she has two daughters who are the Kardashian's half-sisters and daughters. Of course they're going to be on her show.

I'm hearing much about the "Word of God" on this thread . . . Y'all know HUMANS wrote that book, right? It "contains" the Word of God, but is not the Word of God. _Jesus's_ teachings are the Word, not the parts made up by some dudes a thousand years ago. Heck, the scripture states that! Stop worshiping a book.

By the way, I am a confirmed Catholic.

People like Leela Alcorn are dead because of the ignorance of their parents and the society that raised and psychologically tortured them. THAT'S why Caitlyn matters. That's why she should be news. If her story helps just that one person live another day, then all of the coverage is worth it. I actually don't really care if you think something shouldn't be news - it is. Deal with it.

There are plenty of publications that pander to exactly the kind of stories y'all want to hear. Look at them.


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## churumbeque

Roman said:


> Can you further explain what these "judgements" are that you are talking about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When people judge others and say that people that have different beliefs are not going to heaven. Many Christians seem so not excepting of others that are differnt then them in beliefs. I don't agree with judging homosexuals. When you meet many male homosexual it's obvious that they are lacking some masculine qualities and are more feminine. They didn't choose those qualities they were born that way. I can't judge someone that didn't have a choice in the way they were born.


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## SlideStop

churumbeque said:


> When people judge others and say that people that have different beliefs are not going to heaven. Many Christians seem so not excepting of others that are differnt then them in beliefs. I don't agree with judging homosexuals. When you meet many male homosexual it's obvious that they are lacking some masculine qualities and are more feminine. They didn't choose those qualities they were born that way. I can't judge someone that didn't have a choice in the way they were born.


I have a really neat book, the name escapes me right now, about people's coming out stories. MANY people knew they were homosexual when they were YOUNG, as young as 3 or 4, before they could even know what being gay is. Same thing with me. I knew I had feelings for girls in elementary school, way before I knew you could like people of the same sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag

I'm wondering of Jenner's "coming out" has to do with his drop in testosterone levels and his increase in the female hormones which happens as men age. That's why they are often wonderful nurturing grandfathers.


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## Saddlebag

Just tho't of something. If modern medicine could give the Bruce Jenners of this world the real deal, I wonder how many would still want it after experiencing pms, the monthlys with it's cramps, bloating, etc. Men think they are dying when they get a cold, so how would they deal with woman issues? They'd never get out of bed. Roman, I respect your feelings but despite your beliefs, the bible wasn't written by God nor was anything recorded during Jesus time. It all began about 50 yrs after by Paul who was trying out "out-religion" the Jews. The story of the crucifix, that it was Jews who were responsible, was part of this. The Jews disdained people who didn't follow their Sabbath but they didn't kill anyone over this. They'd complain to the Romans and someone would try to resolve the issue. The Romans practised freedom of religion to keep peace. Why are there no records of what happened the day you Jesus was crucified? The Romans kept careful records as scribes (early day reporters) were sent out to record various events.


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