# The difference?



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

About $300. 


*slaps self for posting.*

Ok, back to regular programming.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ROFLMFAO!! Allie, you are just too darn much.


----------



## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I really don't mean to offend any Parelli followers, but WHY is the Parelli stuff so expensive?? I just moved to a Parelli barn and its my first time being exposed to die hard NH. Everyone uses authentic Parelli gear (lead ropes, carrot stick, halters, saddles, etc). I am in total sticker shock when I see the prices on this stuff. Is it really completely different than other brands claming to have the same stuff? For example, the carrot stick is $60, plus $20 for the savvy string attachment. Abetta makes the same thing on ebay for something like $15. Is it really different?!?!


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't see any difference in quality. I'm not a die-hard Parelli follower, but I do like NH in general, and apply a lot of the groundwork principles when dealing with my own horse. I tend to lean towards Clinton Anderson's methods, but the same price tag argument can easily be made for his equipment.

I have a "bootleg carrot stick" (string with leather popper included at no extra cost... :winkthat I bought at Equine Affaire three years ago for under $10. The only reason I own it is beacuse I couldn't pass up the price (My dressage whip with baler twine tied to the end was doing a well enough job...). I can say that the concept is wonderful, the stick is a much better tool than my improvised version, but $60 (plus $20 for the string :shockwonderful? Methinks not.

As long as you know what you're doing, and the tack/tool fits you and your horse and you correctly (by fit I mean both physically accomodating, appropriate to the situation, and appropriate to the level of training/expertise), it's a good tool. 

For myself, I simply refuse to pay anything over $20 for a rope halter. The case can be made and argued for a saddle of higher price perhaps being of a generally higher quality, but a good rope halter is a rope halter. Why pay $60 for CA's when I can buy an equally serviceable halter at TSC for $12?

If I must have a brand name item (a truly rare occurrence; I think there have been a couple of eclipses, six blue moons, and a ****'s age since the last time that happened :lol, my favorite word... eBay!


----------



## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

LOL! The NH brand name stuff isn't any cheaper on ebay either!! Just seems a wee bit crazy... Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread but JustDressageIt's post seemed to hit the nail on the head!


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Pretty much what everyone else said. There isn't really much of a differance. If you find a similar bit your horse likes and use a regular old headstall, you'll be fine.


----------



## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

There is no difference, and I'm glad that you noticed something funny was going on here. I feel just awful for all of the people who think they need to pay all of that money on this name brand equipment in order for it to work. It really is a shame.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

The Cradle bits have independent side movement which is really nice. They come in 3 different mouthpieces, depending on which Horsenality your horse is. Have you seen the westen shank bits Parelli offers? There isn't too much difference b/w the shanked bits and the one you posted. However, with the Cradle bits you also have communication in 4 other areas, not just in the mouth like the bit you posted. The actual mouthpiece will "open up" when you pick up the rein, helping "open the door" for the horse, if you will. It makes things so much more clear to the horse. My warmblood is a LBI as well and he looooooves the Cradle Bridle! He likes his snaffle too, but I see a noticable difference when he's in the Cradle.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Alright, so I've been looking in to a lot of the NH approach just to kind of see what it has to offer for me and Ice....I was particularly struck by the Parelli "horsenality", mostly because it rang true for my horse. From what I can tell, Ice is an LB Introvert, which, later in the program, would mean he would get the C3 bit (to be used with the cradle bridle of course). So my question is....whats the difference between the C3 and something like a reining bit like this?


first off, that is a shank bit, whereas the cradle is not. The cradle, when put on the smaller of the rings, activates the noseband more than the bit, where on the loose ring, it activates the bit more. Where as with this bit, put on the ring right by the mouth piece, it activates the bit...put it on the lower one...and it activates the bit even more

Mouthpiece wise, that's about the same (though a little different), but the cradle was meant to be used with two hands (or you could use one), where all shank bits are supposed to be used with one hand.


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

I figured it out, it's a kimberwick they reinvented!








Ok so it doesn't have the nose dealy but you could probably get some hay twine and remove the chain and voila and 38$ investment in your horsenality. Also I have seen that nose band thingy used by some bull fighters at my barn and I am pretty sure they don't follow parelli, and the bits look pretty old, so maybe I can find out how they got theirs, one looks made but another manufactured, so maybe look up bits used on bull fighting horses? But I really think they made a modified kimberwick though I am sure there will be no shortage of parellites to tell me different.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

The cradle bridle is basically a combination bit with a much higher price tag. I used to see them most often in performance horses. I personally have never used one, nor do I desire to. I constantly tell students that we ride the horse, not the head. The main purpose of my reins is for listening, secondary purpose as guiding if the horse needs a little more encouragement to change its posture than my seat and leg can provide. I would expect a horse to get extremely light in the cradle bridle, if you were using five points on my head I would probably get pretty light to those touches as well, especially if I had already been preprogramed to come off of pressure and be light on the hands. To each his own I guess.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

The overall effect of the cradle is actually softer because you disperse the areas of communication over 5 areas, not just in the mouth. It's not putting pressure in all the areas all at once, nor is it tons of pressure. The cradle is meant for upper level students and for Finese riding. All the preperation we do BEFORE we ride with concentrated reins gets the horse soft and light to our seat, legs and hands, but the cradle is a refined tool and makes everything much more clear to the horse and gets the horse feeling more comfortable and confident with contact, based on which mouthpiece you get. The C1 mouthpiece is like a snaffle, however it has a 'float' that allows the horse to swallow even when the rider has contact on the reins, unlike regular snaffles. It has complete tongue contact with is comforting to nevous, tense horses (the RBEs). The C2 has half and half, so to speak....some tongue contact but some tongue relief for the little RBIs, and then the C3 that has ultimate tongue relief for the LB horses who really don't care for tongue contact because they feel blocked.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I'm sorry, but if this is for advanced riders and horses, shouldn't horses be past the point of being nervous and tense? Shouldn't my horse already be busting with confidence? Also, if the horse is so soft to seat, let, and hands, then how are we to recognize compensation patterns that would be masked by the horse taking themselves away from the pressure? I do want a horse to move when I ask it to move, but i don't want it to be so light to the pressure that it may need to be comforted in order to take a contact.
Also, with my experience, every horse has a full deck of cards, the introvert can rapidly become an extrovert once you break through that first defensive pattern. What I would consider a well grounded horse is one that doesn't show any of those imbalances from one side to the other, and I have yet to meet a horse that is incapable of always being in that calm, willing frame of mind. How can you label a bit to a horse's personality type when what we are labeling as "personality" are often times simply defensive patterns? If we are making progress with our horses, shouldn't they be more adaptable and no longer need the reassurance of more pressure like a nervous cow that is settled in a squeeze shoot? Or, shouldn't they be able to handle a little more pressure even if they were extremely skeptical of that pressure in the past? Also, if my horse has been doing so well to get to an advanced level, it doesn't seem like we should need too much pressure that we would need to distribute it so much. Actually, in my experience, we concentrate pressure when we want a response. When you mention distributing pressure, I think of the purpose of a saddle on a horses back, to distribute the constant pressure of the rider. This makes it seem like the cradle bridle would actually fudge the commands, allowing the horse to fall into the pressure, which is the reviews that I heard on the bridle from trainers who have worked with it.  I think of a contact as more of a feel, almost like holding hands. My husband can feel me squeeze his hand, he can feel if I get nervous, or anxious, just from the feel of my hand, so doesn't it make sense that with quiet hands, our horse could decipher those same messages, just as we can from them? If we are consistent, then communication shouldn't be a very hard thing to figure out, nor should it require excessive pressure in one place, right?


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

FlitterBug said:


> I'm sorry, but if this is for advanced riders and horses, shouldn't horses be past the point of being nervous and tense? *By that I meant that's what the horse innately is. An innately unconfident horse, one who is shy and timid, LEARNS how to be confident in himself and in his rider. Some horses don't need to learn confidence, some have too much for their own good! lol. Take Pat's mare Magic. She is an innately RBI horse, however when Pat rides her she appears very confident. That is a skill Magic has learned. Even watching her interract with other horses, her innate characteristics match that of a RBI.* Shouldn't my horse already be busting with confidence? Also, if the horse is so soft to seat, let, and hands, then how are we to recognize compensation patterns that would be masked by the horse taking themselves away from the pressure? *The cradle does not use excessive pressure (unless the rider abuses it, but that's with any bridle), so if the rider is using it softly and correctly, then the horse will have no reason to evade the pressure and compensate anywhere in their body.* I do want a horse to move when I ask it to move, but i don't want it to be so light to the pressure that it may need to be comforted in order to take a contact. *We want our horses to be sensitized to pressure but confident at the same time. Being super light, as in what you are describing, would be hyper sensitive and that's not what we want. We want the horse to be soft and light yet still go into the contact when we ask him to.*
> Also, with my experience, every horse has a full deck of cards, the introvert can rapidly become an extrovert once you break through that first defensive pattern. *If we have prepared the horse well on the ground, then transferred that to the saddle, the horse shouldn't have any defensive patterns whatsoever. We want positive reflexes, having the horse say "Yes" instead of getting scared or arguing with us.* What I would consider a well grounded horse is one that doesn't show any of those imbalances from one side to the other, and I have yet to meet a horse that is incapable of always being in that calm, willing frame of mind. *I agree, no horse is incapable of being in a willing frame of mind. The horse is only "incapable" of it if the rider isn't doing what he/she should be doing.* How can you label a bit to a horse's personality type when what we are labeling as "personality" are often times simply defensive patterns? *Again, a horse properly prepared should not have defensive patterns....because we shouldn't be giving them anything to feel defensive about.* If we are making progress with our horses, shouldn't they be more adaptable and no longer need the reassurance of more pressure like a nervous cow that is settled in a squeeze shoot?* Depends on the horse's innate characteristics. More and more pressure doesn't calm a horse down, it makes things worse.* Or, shouldn't they be able to handle a little more pressure even if they were extremely skeptical of that pressure in the past? *No, because that is human logic. If the horse was skeptical of pressure in the past, then that was a confidence issue that the rider has failed to fix.* Also, if my horse has been doing so well to get to an advanced level, it doesn't seem like we should need too much pressure that we would need to distribute it so much. *Say you ride with 8 ounces of pressure in a regular snaffle bridle. With the cradle, that 8 ounces is evenly distributed over the 5 areas, thus making the overall effect even softer (because there is no excessive pressure in one area) and it's much more clear to the horse.* Actually, in my experience, we concentrate pressure when we want a response. When you mention distributing pressure, I think of the purpose of a saddle on a horses back, to distribute the constant pressure of the rider. This makes it seem like the cradle bridle would actually fudge the commands, allowing the horse to fall into the pressure, which is the reviews that I heard on the bridle from trainers who have worked with it. *When the rider activates the reins, the first areas to receive contact is the poll, nose and chin....so you could say this is a preparatory command to the horse that we are trying to communicate something BEFORE the bit is actually activated. I myself have the cradle with the C3 bit and my horse goes very well in his snaffle, he doesn't lean, he's soft and stretches into it, yet when I put the cradle on him everything is much more subtle, he comes through nicely, he certainly is not evading, his ears are back and attentive, he foams a little bit, his flexion remains soft...and I'm using hardly any pressure on the reins at all. It's not because the bridle is harsh, it's because I don't NEED to use much because the bridle makes everything so much more clear. My horse is a VERY honset guy and if something ****es him off he lets me know! lol. He has never once opossed the cradle.* I think of a contact as more of a feel, almost like holding hands. *Absolutely  I completely agree.* My husband can feel me squeeze his hand, he can feel if I get nervous, or anxious, just from the feel of my hand, so doesn't it make sense that with quiet hands, our horse could decipher those same messages, just as we can from them? *Sure, IF the horse is in a learning frame of mind. If he's unconfident, we can be soft all we want to but it won't make any difference if we don't get to the root of the unconfidence and fix it. Say the horse is spooky at one end of the arena. We could ride him past that spot all day, with nice soft hands, never getting any firmer, but it wouldn't necessarily cause the horse to become more confident. He needs us to approach and retreat that threshold, but that's another topic * If we are consistent, then communication shouldn't be a very hard thing to figure out, nor should it require excessive pressure in one place, right? *Of course. Again, a lot of this lies in the horse's preparation as well as the person's. Like I said, the cradle does not use excessive pressure.*


Responses in bold


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Ok, for the most part, you basically confirmed everything that I said. As far as Magic goes, I know stories about that relationship that never hit the DVDs, so you won't get any respect from me there.
As far as pressure goes, pressure can relax as well. When we work cows, they go in a chute, when the chute closes, the cows don't panic, they relax. I know Temple Grandin actually made a squeeze chute for herself to help her with anxiety that has proven effective on many autistic people. That is what I was referring to by pressure. The cradle bridle almost seems to do the same thing to a horses head....
As far as the pressure distribution goes, that does not make sense either. Look at the laws of physics, I have to use more pressure on a larger area to get a response of less pressure on a smaller area. It may seem softer to the rider because of the amount of leverage that the bridle provides.
Also, if I am on a horse that is as finished as what you describe a horse should be before the cradle bridle, then spooking actually vanishes. Take my gelding, he is my right hand man when training other horses or just enjoying a ride. I have had him since he was 3. If anything catches him off guard, he doesn't react more than a slight tension. If I say its ok, he completely lets it go, he trusts my judgement as the herd leader without question, as do my other horses. If so much ground work is done on the ground, then why would there be any question to the herd leader's judgement?
IMO, the bridle seems to "babysit" the horse a bit too much. I feel as though everything that I am communicating to my horse is getting through granted that he is listening to me and I to him.
With everything, you pretty much confirmed that the properly prepared horse does not need a cradle bridle. It seems very far from "natural" to me, many people believe that it is their way of sweeping up the fact that people were going through the entire program and still having issues. Basically, isn't any bit just another tool of communication for the horse? The more complex, the lighter the contact necessary, why all the fluff? The same thing 10 years ago would be classified as a "torture device".


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

No one NEEDS the cradle bridle. But for those of us who want to head toward performance and to be as subtle as possible, and those of us who are interested in getting the right setup for our horse based on his innate characteristics while riding to make him as happy and comfortable as possible, then the cradle is a wonderful tool to have available to us. If someone just wants to trail ride, then the cradle isn't something that person needs. It's only for those of us who want to focus on Finesse. One of the keys to success with horses are the tools you choose to use.....it's no less important than anything else, and the cradle is a refined tool, and one I find extremely nice to have available. I have yet to ride a horse, or personally know a horse, who has hated the cradle bridle.


----------



## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

not to confuse people, but to also put a note on this more or less...the Cradle bit is something that you would use after your horse is familiar with contact, and in the stages of collection, and is a good "stepping stone" to using western shank bits or dressage bridles (like the double bridle). 
"Cradle Bridle For collection and as preparation for Curb Bits _Reins on Small Rings Add Curb Strap"_

They also mention somewhere that you would go from the natural hackamore, to their confidence snaffle, to their cradle bit if the horse does not know how to properly carry himself, and/or is hard on the bit and so on. The cradle is for refining...just like a double bridle in dressage or a western shank bit for western pleasure. Surely when you are starting a dressage horse you don't start out with a double bridle...and surely for a western trained horse, you don't start out with a bit with a shank on it? Neither would you immediately start out with the cradle. Natural Hackamore first, then confidence snaffle is optional (from my understandings of reading their articles) if your horse is evading the bit or something of that sorts, and then the cradle, used for refining and collection.

I'm sorry if that is confusing! I can see if I can find the actual sheet that says all of that if it is too confusing!


----------



## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I know that Myler makes the cradle bits for parelli, so can I ask what the difference is between the C1 cradle bit and any low port myler bit? (Though myler calls it a combination bit Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelCombo Bits Use)

And Myler categorizes the bits differently (with ports) than Parelli does
Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelMyler Selecting a Bit
Particullarly the bits in level 2-3 as opposed to the C2 and C3

I'd just hate for someone to put a C3/Level 3 bit in a horse's mouth when they are not any these:
Horse considered broke or finished; 
willing to obey commands 
Relaxed at the poll 
Possesses advanced skills; works well off seat, legs and hands

I know the bit is only as harsh as the hands of the rider, but I believe that Myler has these levels for a reason.

And one more question.. wouldn't you consider the cradle bits leverage bits since the reins are attached to a different place than the headstall is? And the fact that you can have the reins fixed?


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> No one NEEDS the cradle bridle. But for those of us who want to head toward performance and to be as subtle as possible, and those of us who are interested in getting the right setup for our horse based on his innate characteristics while riding to make him as happy and comfortable as possible, then the cradle is a wonderful tool to have available to us. If someone just wants to trail ride, then the cradle isn't something that person needs. It's only for those of us who want to focus on Finesse. One of the keys to success with horses are the tools you choose to use.....it's no less important than anything else, and the cradle is a refined tool, and one I find extremely nice to have available. I have yet to ride a horse, or personally know a horse, who has hated the cradle bridle.


NO it is not. Is an advertising ploy by a master of advertising. If you are looking for a performance horse that bit would be the last thing you would use. For one it is an illegal bit so you can not use it to show so why train with it. That bit will give you no more finesse then any other bit. Finesse dose not come from the bit it comes from a rider who understands the correct way to ask and the right time to reward the horse for what you are asking. No gimmicks no high priced junk that you can get for less then 1/2 that price.

I have nothing against NH. What I do not like is people like Parreli who get people thinking they need all the high priced crap to get a horse to work and be a willing partner.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

appylover, for your first question, the difference is that the Myler combo bit has a gag action where the cradle bridle does not. The rings on the Myler one are set one below the other, like in the Wonder Bit, where on the cradle the small ring is actually set inside the big ring not creating a gag like effect.

For your second question, Parelli has 3 mouthpieces to choose from based on the horse's Horsenality, which is based on how much tongue contact the horse does or does not like. Some horses need tongue contact, which is what the C1 is for. Some horses need a little tongue relief, but not totally, which is the C2. Some horses hate tongue contact which is what the C3 is for, to give the horse ultimate tongue relief. By the time the horse and rider are ready for the cradle, it won't matter whether it's the C1, C2 or C3 mouthpiece because the horse is already prepared for contact.....the rider will just pick which mouthpiece best suits their horse's needs.

For your last question, the cradle wasn't designed to be a leverage device. When you attach the reins to the small ring you do get more 'lift' but it's not your typical leverage, if that makes sense.....when attached to the small ring the bit is activated less and a lot of horses actually like the small ring setting better, my horse being one of them.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

appylover31803 said:


> I know that Myler makes the cradle bits for parelli, so can I ask what the difference is between the C1 cradle bit and any low port myler bit? (Though myler calls it a combination bit Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelCombo Bits Use)
> 
> And Myler categorizes the bits differently (with ports) than Parelli does
> Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelMyler Selecting a Bit
> ...


The only difference is the price tag.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> NO it is not. Is an advertising ploy by a master of advertising. If you are looking for a performance horse that bit would be the last thing you would use. For one it is an illegal bit so you can not use it to show so why train with it. That bit will give you no more finesse then any other bit. Finesse dose not come from the bit it comes from a rider who understands the correct way to ask and the right time to reward the horse for what you are asking. No gimmicks no high priced junk that you can get for less then 1/2 that price.
> 
> I have nothing against NH. What I do not like is people like Parreli who get people thinking they need all the high priced crap to get a horse to work and be a willing partner.


No, finesse doesn't come from a bit, and I never said it did, HOWEVER like I said, the tools you use to help your horse understand better are very important.....the right tools can make all the difference in the performance of the horse.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not care what tool you put on a horse if YOU do not understand the correct way to ask and the correct time to release the tool will make no difference. I can get my horses to do anything and everything with out paying out all that money on that type of stuff. Now I do use myler bits and always will. They are well worth the money paid. However if I wanted I can put a $10 bit in my mares mouth and get the same results. I choose to use the Mylar b/c they are a better bit and the horse likes them better. However it is not the bit that makes the difference. Plus the better bits like the Mylar last longer and no not pinch and such.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

If a horse is tossing his head with the bit, for example, and there are no physical issues causing it, usually when you change the bit to give him more tongue relief the behavior goes away. So yes, a bit can make a difference.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ I 100% agree with that


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes a bit can make a difference if a horse need something like Tongue relief. I have one like that. However changing a bit to give him that relief dose nothing past that. Different bit will give you a faster response with less movement of your hand. However if you do not know when to move your hand or move it back the bit dose no good. Some horses will like some bits better then others then there are horses who do not care what bit is in their mouth. I have several horses in that category. 

My point is that a bit will not make a horse work better if the rider dose not know how to use it or when to give relief or how to ask. Finesse comes from that not the bit.

Also to pay more b/c someone puts a name on something is not a reason to buy it. You can find the same thing for less money. Those Cradle bits that Parreli sells is a good example.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well whatever, you aren't changing my mind on the subject, and I'm not changing yours, not that I'm trying anyway. I let my horse tell me if I'm doing things right and if I'm using the right tools, and so far he's telling me I'm doing a good job and he's comfortable, happy and confident


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Nope, I'm still not buying it. Everything that you are saying sounds like it is coming off their FAQ site where they lay everything out in what they want people to read so they don't actually have to think. Common sense would tell me that the reason that the horse is so light is because of the leverage the bridle is giving. Its like sticking your horses entire head in a vice. When you do that with a horse that has had it drilled into their head to come off of pressure, then yeah, you are going to get extreme lightness with minimal pressure from the person. That is why people use combination bits on game horses and jumpers, for the leverage that they provide. I have yet to see a Parelli horse with good, honest movement. The last time I saw a video with Remmer in it, he looked dead lame. Obedience and softness only mask physical imbalances.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> NO it is not. Is an advertising ploy by a master of advertising. If you are looking for a performance horse that bit would be the last thing you would use. For one it is an illegal bit so you can not use it to show so why train with it. That bit will give you no more finesse then any other bit. Finesse dose not come from the bit it comes from a rider who understands the correct way to ask and the right time to reward the horse for what you are asking. No gimmicks no high priced junk that you can get for less then 1/2 that price.
> 
> I have nothing against NH. What I do not like is people like Parreli who get people thinking they need all the high priced crap to get a horse to work and be a willing partner.


I like you.
I do agree, if you're looking for competition, this is not the bit/bridle to do it in. I always encourage people to use the exact equipment at home that they're going to use in the show ring. If you're just pleasure riding, it doesn't matter. 
I also agree that a bit does no more to finesse a horse than your boots, it's all in the rider.
Parelli is a master genius of marketing. He has designed a human-attribute "hrosenality" system that EVERY owner can see their horse being. I don't care who you are, if you want to believe in that system, you CAN make your horse fit into the horsenality system. Just like if a person is reading a personality profile, and they see certain attributes that are mentioned, they go "aha! I'm this!" when really they don't fit, but they've seen one or two atrributes that "fit" even if the rest don't. It's a "want to be included" feeling or a "trying to figure things out the easy way" thing.


Anyways, after all that blabbing, here is my feeling:
There are a lot worse things out there than a "Parelli Cradle bit." From all I can see, they only offer a Baucher-type snaffle. They don't get into curbs or twisted wires or rawhide nosebands, so ... from what I can see, the bits they encourage their riders to use are all very mild bits. 
Now, what I don't like is the fact that they again market these bits to every horse. Not ever horse is going to like all that pressure; it's quite an intricate set-up they have! Not every horse is going to like a boucher cheek. Not every horse is going to like the nosepiece or chinstrap.

If a person wants to spend their hard-earned money... go for it. I'm just glad they aren't sticking this: http://www.jwcinc.net/1174886746/bits/251072.jpg in their horse's mouth. 


Funny story: when I was searching for the cradle bits just now on the Parelli website, I first typed "Parelli.con" - Freudian slip of the fingers? :lol:


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

If it wasn't a leverage bit, then the noseband and the chinstrap would never apply any pressure.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Funny story: when I was searching for the cradle bits just now on the Parelli website, I first typed "Parelli.con" -* Freudian slip of the fingers?* :lol:


Oh, no, no, no. I don't think so at all  Just the truth.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> About $300.
> 
> 
> *slaps self for posting.*
> ...


 
Okay this was just too funny! I was going to mention something about price...but you did that just fine! :lol:


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

300 dollars can buy you 6 lessons! 6! and I bet a half descent trainer can resolve the issues this bit is supposed to in about 5 lessons. So your getting a far better value to go the route of paying for instruction than hanging a hunk of metal in your horses mouth to make the problem go away. I am so tired of hearing how people bought this DVD and that carrot stick and this bit all to better understand their horse but wont pay for a knowledgeable horse person to actually watch them ride and tell them what they need to change or work on. I watch people learn from DVDs and I see how they exactly imitate the person on the TV but they have no intuition about what their horse is really thinking. It's funny because everything will be the same, where their feet are, how they are standing, everything but the horses reaction, and its because they can't tell that they are angled wrong or too close for their horse to see the cues they are trying to give, and so on, but they never bother and have someone actually analyze what they are doing, they just keep watching the guy on the video and mimicking exactly what they are doing. I would much rather study under someone who can watch what I am doing and tell me how to work with the horse that I have, even if they aren't as reputable as some of these DVD trainers. I think the problem with the DVD trainers is they don't take any direct responsibility for their students, instead, they are choosing to give very broad advise for their problems. Having someone work with you directly makes you and that person take direct responsibility for your advancement, since this person sees you every day they are going to want you to advance otherwise they have to suffer the consequences of dealing with a bad horseperson in the barn. I watch a NHer's horse bolt every day while being led and I think to myself "If Pat had to deal with the results of his training methods in his environment then maybe he would care more if the individual succeeds." Instead I have to watch the chaos of someone who listens to no one but Pat and is endangering the whole facility with their horse. When millions of people apply the techniques there are going to be some successes to note, but when failure is just met by another series of DVDs to fix the problem then I understand why marketing is the key to success in this business. People just keep buying stuff without knowing they reason behind it, and those people never realize that they aren't actually advancing anything because they have no one to compare themselves too or anyone who can confirm improvement because no one witnessed it. Pay a trainer, someone whose horses look fat and healthy and pop their heads out when you walk by. Chances are if the trainers horses are happy, your horse will gain confidence from a person like that.


----------



## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

TroubledTB said:


> 300 dollars can buy you 6 lessons! 6! and I bet a half descent trainer can resolve the issues this bit is supposed to in about 5 lessons. So your getting a far better value to go the route of paying for instruction than hanging a hunk of metal in your horses mouth to make the problem go away. I am so tired of hearing how people bought this DVD and that carrot stick and this bit all to better understand their horse but wont pay for a knowledgeable horse person to actually watch them ride and tell them what they need to change or work on. I watch people learn from DVDs and I see how they exactly imitate the person on the TV but they have no intuition about what their horse is really thinking. It's funny because everything will be the same, where their feet are, how they are standing, everything but the horses reaction, and its because they can't tell that they are angled wrong or too close for their horse to see the cues they are trying to give, and so on, but they never bother and have someone actually analyze what they are doing, they just keep watching the guy on the video and mimicking exactly what they are doing. I would much rather study under someone who can watch what I am doing and tell me how to work with the horse that I have, even if they aren't as reputable as some of these DVD trainers. I think the problem with the DVD trainers is they don't take any direct responsibility for their students, instead, they are choosing to give very broad advise for their problems. Having someone work with you directly makes you and that person take direct responsibility for your advancement, since this person sees you every day they are going to want you to advance otherwise they have to suffer the consequences of dealing with a bad horseperson in the barn. I watch a NHer's horse bolt every day while being led and I think to myself "If Pat had to deal with the results of his training methods in his environment then maybe he would care more if the individual succeeds." Instead I have to watch the chaos of someone who listens to no one but Pat and is endangering the whole facility with their horse. When millions of people apply the techniques there are going to be some successes to note, but when failure is just met by another series of DVDs to fix the problem then I understand why marketing is the key to success in this business. People just keep buying stuff without knowing they reason behind it, and those people never realize that they aren't actually advancing anything because they have no one to compare themselves too or anyone who can confirm improvement because no one witnessed it. Pay a trainer, someone whose horses look fat and healthy and pop their heads out when you walk by. Chances are if the trainers horses are happy, your horse will gain confidence from a person like that.


 
:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

I wish we had the hand clapping smilie on this board... Oh well.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Like I've said before, it's the difference between imitating someone and emulating them. Imitators don't have the in-depth knowledge, they don't have the finely tuned sense of reading a horse before acting, they don't know why they are doing what they are doing, they are just doing it. They know Steps 1-3 but don't know what to do at Step 1 3/4 if their horse does something unexpected because they are just using technique, they aren't using anything else. To be successful one must EMULATE. You've gotta know WHY you are doing what you're doing and why it works! You have to be willing to be uncomfortable to learn, because when is learning ever comfortable? You have to be the ultimate student, and no it's not easy, it's quite challenging. That's why Pat says his program isn't for every person, because not every person can handle the kind of learning that goes on.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Blah. Poppycock. 

The system isn't for any horse. 
And "Not every person can handle the kind of learning" that goes on? Between the this and "All other training problems have holes" "You must ask what is best for the horse" it's like seeing everything I dislike about Parelli (Sadly from one of the few Parelli people I can respect). 

The program is not perfect. If you are having a problem with the program, it is not always your fault. 

To get the results everyone is trying to achieve through Parelli, you don't have to emulate PP, imitate PP, or look at any DVD. You just have to listen to your horse. You are a student of your horse, not of Pat Parelli.


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

What is so bad about asking yourself if what you're doing with the horse is what is best for him? I ask myself that to this day, but not in a comparing trainers way, but from a "Was what I did just then the best thing/way to offer to my horse?" It could be a situation where I'm not sure if I went up my "phases" fast or slow enough....it could be blocking him at certian times....it could be a number of things. IMO this is what good horseman do, they ask themselves if they are doing right by their horses. If you don't have the horse's best interests in mind then you aren't a good horseman. JMO.

I at one time quit Parelli altogether for a different trainer. This trainer told me a number of things that "were wrong with the program" as he put it and that his way would fix all the issues I was having at the time. Well, unfortunately I believed him so I did his way for awhile. My horse stopped coming to me, he stopped wanting to play and he stopped trying for me. And this trainer's way wasn't mean or anything, it was just plain BORING and really has no long term benefits (this is what I finally decided). So I listened to my horse and started up with Parelli again and he started running to greet me at the gate again, his play drive returned and he again put his heart into things. Once I figured out that the problems I was having wasn't the result of the program, it was a result of me not executing things properly and me getting complacent and not advancing and listening to my horse when he told me he was ready to move on. Take that new knowledge and a fabulous clinic with a 5 star Instructor and we were FLYING through the rest of Level 2 and got to work on our Level 3/4. This was with my appy, not my current horse, and right before my appy started going blind we were inches away from flying lead changes, his collection was to die for and our halt to canter transitions were flawless. Once I got my act together, we moved forward.


----------



## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

It seems to me that almost every trainer out there is trying to prepare the same dish but they are all using a slightly different recipe. Some recipes reflect the original recipe they were taught but modified to suit their taste, others are using a general recipe that you can find at a multitude of different barns, and still others are creative and devise their own unique recipe to make the same meal. But I think that the best cooks in the horse world know the secret isn't in the recipe but thaving the freshest ingredients is what matters. Having the best ingredients can make the most bland recipe positively scrumptious. Having bad ingredients and a good recipe can result in totally inedible garbage. But better still is to remember who you are feeding it to and make something for their pallete. I see trainers feed people Kraft Mac and Cheese from the box and people eat it like its the finest food on earth. Same reason people eat McDonalds, but I would rather know what really goes into my dishes and I wont be force feeding it to anyone.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Of course you always have the horse in mind, but I got the impression that you were saying that Parelli is the one that is best for the horse -- The others are not putting the horse first in foremost. That is what I do not think is true.


----------



## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

Any training program can put the horse first, but its all up to the human involved if they want to do that.
Someone with parelli may want to just progress through all the levels and not care that the horse is still scared of the carrot stick or anything like that, yet someone with a different training program will make sure the horse is always put first.
Did that make any sense? I hope so


----------



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Of course you always have the horse in mind, but I got the impression that you were saying that Parelli is the one that is best for the horse -- The others are not putting the horse first in foremost. That is what I do not think is true.


No no no, not at all. Sorry if that's the way it came across. I do know that other trainers, like Denis Reis, have the horse's best interest in mind. I love Denis, I think he's great.....a little boring and monotone, but a fantastic horseman. He's not for me, but I have a ton of respect for him. 

Let me see if I can say this next part right.....for me personally, I feel Parelli has the best deal for the horse, otherwise I wouldn't be following it, however that doesn't mean I look down on people who don't follow Parelli. I only look down on people who don't care about the horse and treat them like robots, the people who really don't love the horse, they are just using them to fulfill some personal need for feeling powerful, in control of another being or just wanting to WIN....at any cost. Does that make sense?


----------

