# Red Dun or chestnut



## ConfusedHuman (Oct 28, 2021)

ConfusedHuman said:


> Chestnut Or Red Dun?
> Saddlebred colt of mine, lighter in the back end, no chance to roan out, sire is chestnut, dam is bay with a dorsal and the Nd1 gene. i just find his color unusual compared to our other foals
> View attachment 1119631
> 
> ...


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## ConfusedHuman (Oct 28, 2021)

im just curious because out of several foals ive had this one is quite weird


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As neither parent carries dun the foal cannot be dun. Heavy foal camo and likely inherited the nd1. Perhaps the sire carries as well. Homozygous presentations of nd1 are typically more pronounced.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Sire is a chestnut, dam is bay. Not going to get a red dun from that. What you are seeing is counter shading. It will fade as he grows. Nice baby!


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## 294223 (Nov 2, 2021)

You won't really know until the foal sheds it's coat.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Keep in mind first shed is usually to a darker shade than what the horse will mature to.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Aafke Art Horse Painter said:


> You won't really know until the foal sheds it's coat.


In this case, you will know and not have to wait. Neither of the parents are in the dun family.
Chestnut and bay, you don't get dun out of that.


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## ConfusedHuman (Oct 28, 2021)

Zimalia22 said:


> In this case, you will know and not have to wait. Neither of the parents are in the dun family.
> Chestnut and bay, you don't get dun out of that.


actually the dams mother has a dun gene and several vets said he was a apricot dun


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Dun does not hide. It is a dilution gene. For the foal to have it one of his parents had to have it to pass. Neither does. There is a nd1 gene that was likely passed. That causes primitives and some fading. Not dilution to the level dun will though in homozygous form there are some nd1 that may show a slight dilution. I find they fade more which some people mistake for dilution. Many vets don't get color right. They've had genetics but color genetics isn't their focus so they go by what they see and think of as belonging to one color type or another. Foal coats are not adult color.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

ConfusedHuman said:


> Chestnut Or Red Dun?
> Saddlebred colt of mine, lighter in the back end, no chance to roan out, sire is chestnut, dam is bay with a dorsal and the Nd1 gene. i just find his color unusual compared to our other foals
> View attachment 1119634
> 
> ...


Nd1 is what put the dorsal on the mare. She is bay. Does not have the dun gene as there is no dilution to her coat so there is no Dn to pass. Foal coats are called foal camo as they are typically showing lighter under belly, darker dorsal, a coat that fades or shades. That may or may not reflect the genetic phenotype but because certain coloration go with certain adult color a good guess can be made. Foal is red. Likely has nd1 and will keep some degree of dorsal.


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## ConfusedHuman (Oct 28, 2021)

there is a few duns in his pedigree and he is getting color tested. hes definitely not a chestnut. hes continuing to get lighter and lighter.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Genes inheritance is very specific. Phenotype (what they look like) may not always be what you expect from the genotype because of interaction between genes or other factors (diet, nutrition, mineral imbalances, climate and exposure). You have said the dam is bay with nd1. Her genes are EeA_nd1_. There is no dun to pass or she would be D_. The sire is ee. You don't know A/a or nd status but you do know no D. The dun gene does not hide. If it is there it is visible in the dilution of the coat and primitive markings present. Your foal cannot be dun unless the sire is not the sire. There are three genes that concern dun. D which causes dilution and primitives. Nd1 which causes primitives and possible light dilution in homozygous form as well as fading that may be mistaken for dilution and primitives that vary in strength again depending on homozygous or not. Lastly there is nd2 which is no dilution or fading and no primitives. Foal coats are not representative of adult coloration. The genes don't change and foal coat indicates what is present but not final phenotype. The parents to your foal did not inherit dun therefore they cannot pass dun. That has been mentioned several times by different users. If they had dun to pass they would exhibit dun traits and they don't. You are willing to accept this about roan. It is the same for dun. No dun parent = no dun offspring. Foal camo can be heavy or light and includes primitives, dilution and fading. If there is no gene to support that phenotype in the foal coat the adult coat won't have it.

He is ee. That makes him red. Sorrel, chestnut, whatever you choose to call it. All horses are either ee(red), E_A_(bay) or E_aa(black). With ee A/a doesn't matter in color as it doesn't effect red but can effect offspring. With E the A/a matters as A_ makes for bay and aa combined with E makes for black. The _ represent the second gene inherited that does not effect the final color but can effect a foal if passed. That is why two blacks or bays that are both Ee can produce red (ee) foals. They each passed the recessive e and neither passed the dominant E.

With your horses you know the mare is EeA_nd1_. She was tested, correct? No D appeared in her results. You state the sire is chestnut. He is ee. You know there is no D or he would have dilution and primitives. You don't know the combination of nd1/nd2 though if he had nd1 you would likely see a dorsal or some other primitive marking so let's assume nd2nd2. That means your baby got e from both mom and dad and is chestnut(sorrel). He is red ee. He likely got nd1 from mom and that is why it is pronounced in his foal coat. The lighter coloration is just him. Odd but not out of the realm of normal. He is not dun. Unless a dun stallion jumped your fence.

I'll also add if the lightness you are referring to is the whiter area on his upper back thighs - combined with the muzzle I would say very possible the sire also carries pangare which primarily lightens the ventral as a primitive camo in the opposite manner dun puts darker marks primarily dorsally. On a bay pangare would mean a white ventral line along with other possible lighter areas especially the muzzle.

Ticking is also very common in red based horses. No gene as yet identified as a cause. But it can be localized or extensive to the point it covers the entire body.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

ConfusedHuman said:


> actually the dams mother has a dun gene and several vets said he was a apricot dun


Vets are notorious for being wrong about color. While they do understand the basics of genetic inheritance they do not study color or the genes responsible unless there is a defect that goes along with it and didn't then they may not put the two together.

To her dying day I had vets across three states label this mare as a strawberry roan. She is ee (sorrel based on breed and regional preferences for shade distinction). She has no roan but does have very extensive ticking. I've also had her labeled as palomino when I tell them she is not roan. She has no cream gene. Neither parent was palomino.

Here are two pictures of her in her winter coat. The ticking is not as obvious but I have none of her summer pics on my phone. She also has pangare. The other is a palomino with nd1/nd1. I've had him labeled dunalino by vets. His foal coat was pure white. His full brother had the same pure white foal coat but is what many call chocolate he is so dark. He got sooty instead of nd1.





















He is not dun.








This is not the full brother but is what he looks like.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Based on pics and your description of his parents he is a chestnut. Every single horse behind the parents can be dun, but if the parents aren't the baby isn't. If a mistake was made and mom is actually dun it's possible he could be, from the pics I'd say no, he looks like a pretty typical chestnut baby, but babies can fool ya and he could end up a darker/brighter red dun. And just fyi vets are generally a terrible source for color identifications, like people in general you may come across one with more experience then others, but in my experience generally they aren't that up on colors, especially with babies (they'll want to label them with the color they come closest to as a baby still in foal camo, but babies change ALOT from there). Most recently while discussing my very obvious bay colt (out of a grulla mare), they pointed out his apparent dorsal (counter shading, many bays have) and said something like 'I bet he'll surprise you and end up looking more like his mom', I just smiled and nodded, as much as I would have loved if he'd have been a dun he's definitely a bay.


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