# Are you sure its a black horse? Color help!



## .Delete.

A true black horse does not fade correct? And if they do fade they are considered brown, because brown horses are born black and eventually fade into brown. There is a "black" horse at my barn that is fading. Aswell as my friend cory (AQHA1994) his "black" horse fades. Iv heard several opinions on this, im so confused please help.


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## equiniphile

I've heard that a black horse that fades is called a fading black, and a black horse that doesn't fade is a true black


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## sarahver

There is a genetic difference between a fading black and a true black however all colours fade as a result of exposure to sunlight so it can be difficult to tell without a genetic test.

Inheritance of colour is multi factorial (interactions of several different genes control the phenotype) so it is slightly more complicated than simply being homozygous or heterozygous for a certain gene.

The best time to tell would be around Spring time as the new coat is coming in so if he doesn't appear true black now and doesn't spend time outside (poor horse) it doesn't sound like he is a true black.


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## Vidaloco

I call Vida a "faded" black. She is very black until she sun fades in late summer. Her mane and tail remain black year round. 
Here's a quote from http://www.equusite.com/articles/basics/colors/colorsBlack.shtml
"Black horses have pure black coats with no signs of brown or any other color. Many horse-people mistake dark bays or liver chestnuts for black. If you can see any other color (with the exception of white markings) on the horse's coat in the winter, he is not a true black. The reason I say "in the winter" is because the sun tends to lighten a dark horse's coat in the summer, and the exception is when the hair has been sun-burnt.


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## CheyAut

My purebred Friesian (RIP), so 100% BLACK, no ifs ands or buts.
Blacks definately CAN fade (not all of them do) and it has nothing to do with them being true black or not.


















(the Az summer sun is brutal!)


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## .Delete.

Now, if it is a liver chesnut would it fade at all if the horse is exposed to the sun all the time? The horse at my barn most certainly looks liver chesnut.


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## SorrelHorse

Horses, if exposed to the sun, will lighten just like your hair does in the summer. My hair is naturally a chocolate brown color but in the summer it lightens within the first two weeks to almost a total golden blonde. Every horse I havever had gets lighter in the summer, even Jester who's already red in the winter turns nearly gold in the summer. The black horses I've had get brown in the summer. It's just like pouring bleach onto them. The sun does the same thing.


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## smrobs

I have never had a chestnut horse fade out in the summer :?. Even John (my perch) doesn't fade. He might get a few burned hairs but he doesn't fade, and he is outside 24/7.


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## MacabreMikolaj

There is a very clear genetic difference between black and brown, and a fading black does not make a horse a brown. A brown horse would not have the ability to appear jet black at certain times of the years - he may be brown, or faded brown, but you won't get that jet black Friesian color on a brown.

Someone posted an excellent point - Friesians. Friesians are exclusively black with an occasional chestnut throwback. Agouti flat out doesn't exist in the breed - and yet you'll often see, as pictured, extremely brown/bay colored Friesians during summer.

There is a genetic black that does not fade, Risa's Keegan is a non-fading black, even in summer he is glossy glossy black. "True black" is a very misleading term, and one I wouldn't personally use. True blacks are horses that are genetically black with the absence of agouti, regardless of what physical color they may appear.


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## .Delete.

Parden my ignorance but what is Agouti?


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## MacabreMikolaj

Agouti is what causes bay and brown. The only two "true" horse colors are black and chestnut - every single horse in the world is either black or chestnut. The rest of the colors are just modifiers and extra genes acting on "top" of one of the two base colors.

Bay is what happens when a black horse gets agouti. Hence why two black horses can never sire a bay - if they were carrying the agouti gene to pass on, they would be bay themselves.


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## .Delete.

Interesting! Learn somethin new every day. Thank you!


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## HowClever

sorry to hijack the thread here, but I am trying to learn more about colours. Genetically speaking what would it be with a horse who is pitch black all year round, except for being tan coloured around the eyes and muzzle?


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

You may be referring to "mealy". It is a modifier that causes a paler shade on the muzzle, sometimes around the eyes and often in the flank or belly area. An example of a mealy horse and a non-mealy horse:


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## HowClever

That looks and sounds about right. This is the horse I was asking about


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## speedy da fish

equiniphile said:


> I've heard that a black horse that fades is called a fading black, and a black horse that doesn't fade is a true black


yepI second this! It is right, a lot of black horses fade (fading black) in the winter they may have a brownish tinge to their winter coat.


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## RowdyLover

I have a little black/brown mare who is chocolate in the winter and jet black in the summer. What would cause the browning in winter? Obviously not the sun even though she is paddocked all year round.


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## mls

I have two horses that are black according to the AQHA. My gelding is black. He does not 'fade' in the sun. He bleaches in his tack area from /sweat salt. He is NOT brown in the winter. My mare is a smokey black - she can bleach out all over. I do not consider her to be a true black but AQHA does not have the smokey option as a color choice.

BLACK IS BLACK.


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## .Delete.

We are talking technical standards, not opinions.


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## CheyAut

HowClever said:


> That looks and sounds about right. This is the horse I was asking about


Brown.


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## Alwaysbehind

CheyAut said:


> Brown.


Yeah, dark bay or brown.


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## mls

.Delete. said:


> We are talking technical standards, not opinions.


Are you responding to my post?


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## farley

Im not sure I think it depends, im sure some horses look black when they are actually brown, but my mustang mare Onyx was a sold black, however in the summer she had alil redish high light, very faint unless you where up close, she was the blackest horse off color supluments I have ever seen.


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## TheRoughrider21

my black/white Paint turns a lil browner in the winter but is dark ebony black during the summer. I'll try to post some pics of this spring and now in summer.


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## Donanuge

Agouti fur contains a pattern of pigmentation in which individual hairs have several bands of light and dark pigment with black tips.


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## CheyAut

^ While that is true in several species, it's not the case in equines.


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## MacabreMikolaj

mls said:


> I have two horses that are black according to the AQHA. My gelding is black. He does not 'fade' in the sun. He bleaches in his tack area from /sweat salt. He is NOT brown in the winter. My mare is a smokey black - she can bleach out all over. I do not consider her to be a true black but AQHA does not have the smokey option as a color choice.
> 
> BLACK IS BLACK.


No, actually, genetically it's not. Regardless of the physical representation, my money would be on both your horses having the same basic genetic makeup for color. And "smokey black" means a black horse with a cream gene.

It's no different then having a sorrel, a chestnut, a liver chestnut, a flaxen chestnut, etc. Genetically, they are all "red".


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## mom2pride

A horse can be genetically black, and still fade, or have the appearance of a really dark bay or brown...


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## Miss Neigh

a true black can fade, it's the sun bleaching the hair.. this will happen wither the horse is "true black" or black/brown..


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## farmpony84

Black never faded. not even the tips of his mane and he was never covered.


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## westonsma

HowClever said:


> sorry to hijack the thread here, but I am trying to learn more about colours. Genetically speaking what would it be with a horse who is pitch black all year round, except for being tan coloured around the eyes and muzzle?


This one is "brown." He's not chesnut, but he's not black. He very well could be a very dark bay, but depending on what his parents were, I would register him as brown.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=82069&id=502996794&op=12#!/photo.php?pid=1062928&id=502996794

This horse is also brown.


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## westonsma

Sorry, link wouldn't work.


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## DressageIsToDance

Looks like seal brown to me.


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## AfterParty

equiniphile said:


> I've heard that a black horse that fades is called a fading black, and a black horse that doesn't fade is a true black


 
This is what I've always known and heard .


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## mls

AfterParty said:


> This is what I've always known and heard .


True blacks do not fade. They may bleach from salt but they do not fade.


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## CloudsMystique

sarahver said:


> There is a genetic difference between a fading black and a true black however all colours fade as a result of exposure to sunlight so it can be difficult to tell without a genetic test.



Wrong.

What exactly do you think the genetic difference is? Black horses can only be EE or Ee, and that doesn't affect their appearance at all.

"True black" is just words. It's used to describe a black horse that doesn't fade. It's not genetic and it's not scientific. Same with "fading black."

You cannot genetically determine the difference between a "true black" and a "fading black."


Like you said, all colors can fade with sun damage. It's especially obvious on black hair - as in blacks, bays, browns, buckskins, etc. You don't hear anybody talking about a "true buckskin" or a "true bay." That's because it's simply a descriptive term.

I dislike the term "*true *black," because it makes it sound like fading blacks are not actually blacks - which couldn't be further from the truth. I think the word "true" is what has caused some people to think that fading blacks are not black or are genetically different to blacks.


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## gypsygirl

CloudsMystique said:


> Wrong.
> 
> What exactly do you think the genetic difference is? Black horses can only be EE or Ee, and that doesn't affect their appearance at all.
> 
> "True black" is just words. It's used to describe a black horse that doesn't fade. It's not genetic and it's not scientific. Same with "fading black."
> 
> You cannot genetically determine the difference between a "true black" and a "fading black."
> 
> 
> Like you said, all colors can fade with sun damage. It's especially obvious on black hair - as in blacks, bays, browns, buckskins, etc. You don't hear anybody talking about a "true buckskin" or a "true bay." That's because it's simply a descriptive term.
> 
> I dislike the term "*true *black," because it makes it sound like fading blacks are not actually blacks - which couldn't be further from the truth. I think the word "true" is what has caused some people to think that fading blacks are not black or are genetically different to blacks.


 
great post i agree 100%


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