# Snickers and the mysterious hind end saga



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So, many of you, I am sure, have seen my past pictures and videos. This time I hope this video is a little better. I actually got my daughter to ride her so I could video.

The most recent vet diagnosed her with a mild version of stringhalt. He said it would basically just be a handicap that she would learn to adapt to with her body. He did offer the suggestion of going to a specialist/surgeon to deny/confirm that diagnosis. He said it is definately not wobblers or EPSM.

But still mysterious at this point.....

I'd love to hear from anyone with any further insight to this.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok guys, I'm having another chiro/massage therapist come mid-month. She has a great reputation....so I am giving her a try.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Odd....like there is an interruption between croup and feet....tail hanging rather lifeless too. Has she been checked for nerve damage? Have you checked into acupuncture? It's definitely not locking stifles;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Desert....Haven't done any accupuncture yet. I'm really hoping this chiro can help. She is highly recommended and I chatted with her online a bit after she reviewed this video. She is quite interested in this too. She disagrees with both vets dx so far. She knows the one that just gave the stringhalt dx. She also does TTouch and Craniosacral work. So, it's just another avenue. I can't just say, "Oh, I need to call a vet"...because the vets are just as much at a loss, except for this possible stringhalt dx.

The only time I thought there may be a locking stifle thing was when I was leading her down a hill and I saw the popping in them.

Today when she was walking, I noticed, for a moment, that it was almost like her hind fetlocks popped making her strides short. I just don't know. I wish a vet would be interested in the mystery and take on her care at their cost just to learn! I'd love to do a bone scan....once I save my pennies.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Desert.....nothing done to check for nerve damage yet either. She has good tail tone standing still and at the walk when the vet pulled on it for neuro issues. She never does the arab tail thing when running around, but she does move it around fine.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

She moves a little like either no nerve impulses or only some, arriving down there, or not enough blood arriving.....a little like a flashlight flickers a little when not screwed together all the way.......serious lack of ideas to describe it on my part, sorry....;-)
It seems to come from hip/croup/hamstrings, from what I can see. Her butt should go up and down when she walks. It doesn't, it stays "flat"
I might not see everything, I watch in my cell, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> She moves a little like either no nerve impulses or only some, arriving down there, or not enough blood arriving.....a little like a flashlight flickers a little when not screwed together all the way.......serious lack of ideas to describe it on my part, sorry....;-)
> It seems to come from hip/croup/hamstrings, from what I can see. Her butt should go up and down when she walks. It doesn't, it stays "flat"
> I might not see everything, I watch in my cell, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


Thanks for trying Desert....it's just another something to think about....:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Sorry


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Would video taping her while she is walking out on a trail over uneven terrain help? Obviously, some type of definate diagnosis may not be in our reach, but maybe seeing how her hind end functions with different situations will make it easier to tell which parts are at least dysfunctional?...or not. Idk. I can't imagine a vet following me out on a trail...lol.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Just another reminder....I have always had 'wobblers' in the back of my mind since the day I bought her. However, she passes most of the physical tests and the vets say 'no'.

1. Back Withdrawl.....she does fine. The only time I have seen any squatting is when she gets a bath and the hose running cold water over her back/butt. I've seen many other horses do that too....so I've never been concerned.

2. Tail and anal tone....she is fine in those areas.

3. Panniculus/skin sensation....no problems there.

4. Mobility of the neck....no problems bending around with her neck and then walking off. I have noticed though, when she lifts her hind leg and bends around to scratch her face with it like a dog...that she can be thrown off balance sometimes where she has to start over.

5. Leg placement....this one is questionable. She will cross her legs and stand there and look like, "Sure, ok...if this is what you want me to do, I'm ok with it." I've seen other horses do this too, even on their own though. Snickers is one of those horses that you can mold and she just goes along with it....it's her personality....so not sure on this one.

6. Tail sway....she passes this fine.

7. Tight circles.....she does fine on the ground and under saddle with yielding. Nothing weird there.

8. Hills....I'm not too sure yet. I haven't had the chance to be behind her for this. I think I will get some help and video tape here.

9. Free exercise.....Well, this is where ??? may come in....she used to bunny hop at the canter a year ago. I don't really see it any longer. Her trot is obviously funny. Almost, at times, like her hind legs hit the ground just after her front ones, not in rythm...but sometimes she has rythm. When she is really moving in the trot and even canter and holdiing it well, she is very smooth, almost arabish? Then, when she slows down, it all falls apart. She does knuckle over on occasion.

10. Hopping...I don't remember this one.

11. Blindfold....Hmmmmm....I did ride her with a tarp on her head the other day, but only at the walk. I am going to try the blindfold and lead her around.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Honestly? I would see what the chiropractor has to say and talk about acupuncture with her/him. If there is any interruption anywhere, like I think, acupuncture should pick it up and help. It will not hurt and as a minimum, exclude some things. Don't you wishes they could talk sometimes?.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Honestly? I would see what the chiropractor has to say and talk about acupuncture with her/him. If there is any interruption anywhere, like I think, acupuncture should pick it up and help. It will not hurt and as a minimum, exclude some things. Don't you wishes they could talk sometimes?.....


Desert...exactly right at this point....just trying to hopefully rule some things out at least. Accupuncture is interesting. How does that pick up those type of things? I will ask around about finding someone. Oh yes, it would be MUCH easier if she could talk.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Acupuncture is all about energy flow and to reconnect where its interrupted. Google it for a better explanation....please........... too early for me , im a night owl;-)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Veterinary Acupuncture | IVAS


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I see a horse that is plodding around toe first on her front feet and not bending her hocks at all in the back end. She looks like an arthritic old horse that is trying to avoid bending her joints/moving them much and as a result, looks weak to me. Id be checking joints just to be sure. Have you tried putting her on an NSAID for a week and see if she improves at all? There are several things this could be. 

I also believe that fitness is a big part of this. Is she in a small area all the time standing around or is she turned out over a larger variable terrain area with other horses making her move? 

If this were my horse, id X ray joints if you haven't already to get a baseline, try a pain trial and turn this horse out in a large area where she will be made to move for a couple months and see if she improves. If she worked out of the bunny hopping, that says a strength issue to me, weakness that improved with work. I'm a big believer in turnout with a herd over varied terrain when there are odd soundness issues happening that cant be pinpointed despite the best care. Especially for a youngster.

After I tried those things, if there is no improvement, I would be looking at doing some in depth scanning if I really wanted to figure things out. http://www.equinechronicle.com/health/the-use-of-bone-scan-nuclear-scintigraphy-in-horses.html


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

One of my horses used to sometimes move like that. A few years ago she was partially paralyzed from West Niles. 
She had been vaccinated.
She fine when brought in & at night check she was down & could only get up & walk with help. She spent some time at the vet clinic & came back with some hind end weakness. Her weakness seems to originate from the back of her buttocks & the muscles there are more flat & soft than they used to be.
She is fine if ridden collected but if allowed to string out she will sometimes collapse a leg for a stride.

Maybe something like that happened to your horse? I don't know if there is any test to see if a horse ever had WNV or not.

I hope you find an easy answer.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Trinity3205 said:


> I see a horse that is plodding around toe first on her front feet and not bending her hocks at all in the back end. She looks like an arthritic old horse that is trying to avoid bending her joints/moving them much and as a result, looks weak to me. Id be checking joints just to be sure. Have you tried putting her on an NSAID for a week and see if she improves at all? There are several things this could be.
> 
> I also believe that fitness is a big part of this. Is she in a small area all the time standing around or is she turned out over a larger variable terrain area with other horses making her move?
> 
> ...


Thanks Trinity....
She has always been turned out in a pasture where she can run with my other horse(s) since I've owned her, over a year now. Even the place she came from, which was horrible, except for the fact that she was turned out in a dry pasture with other mares. She has never been cooped up.

I am very hands on with my horses daily, always doing something with them. Even before she was started under saddle, I lead her around for walks or ponied her, did some light roundpen work. Now that she is under saddle, she is ridden almost everyday. LOTS of trails, sometimes for a couple hours on different terrain and hills etc. She is never in a stall. Her turnout area is 48 x 48 and then they have an attached grass pasture which is probably 48 x 96 and they are turned out daily....that is besides there walks and being ridden. My goal was to, exactly that, build strength and have her more balanced since she is green.

I did notice today, after turning her out and she ran off, later that she knicked her hind cannon bone. There was already a bump there on the bone from when she knicked it about a year ago, after I first got her. So she must hit it with maybe her other hind foot?

I really would like to take a video of her from behind while being walked up and down a hill etc and when she is turned out and running.....her fetlocks definately seem to lock up or something. I will work on that just so you guys can see how odd it is.

I did do the hopping test today and she hopped on both sides with me holding her front leg up. I also blindfolded her and walked her and she just followed me along like nothing was up....no drunken walking or anything either.

The chiro I have coming out I am hoping can really give me a good professional opinion and direction. I just want to start ruling some things out at least.

I have not tried any meds etc., really focusing on building up strength etc. No x-rays done yet since nobody really is sure on where to start.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

natisha said:


> One of my horses used to sometimes move like that. A few years ago she was partially paralyzed from West Niles.
> She had been vaccinated.
> She fine when brought in & at night check she was down & could only get up & walk with help. She spent some time at the vet clinic & came back with some hind end weakness. Her weakness seems to originate from the back of her buttocks & the muscles there are more flat & soft than they used to be.
> She is fine if ridden collected but if allowed to string out she will sometimes collapse a leg for a stride.
> ...


Thanks Natsha....my mare has done nothing but blossomed in the booty in this past year. When I got her she was 2 1/2 and quite butt high, but has leveled off now and has a nice round hind end. Absolutely no muscle atrophy. I wish I knew her full history since birth, but don't. When I had the vet look at her before taking her home, the girl I bought her from was asked about any injury etc and she denied anything. Both the vet and the girl both thought she was growing into her legs and learning how to use them.

Here is a picture of when I got her....









Here is a picture now....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Just one more note, while I am thinking of it....

If you are standing with your knees locked, and someone comes up behind you and karate chops you from behind your knees, and your knees give out....THAT is something like it looks with her legs when she is slowing down from a canter and you see the popping action and where she would knuckle over.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Wanted to update really:

Chiro came out today and strongly feels that this is a type of neurological problem....where there is a missing link from the brain to the hind end. She does not think, and would be shocked, if it was stringhalt. Said it didn't look like shivers. EPSM/PSSM is possible, but it is still a mystery. She did say that because Snickers adapts so well to her hind end, that this could be the way she was born and all she knows...simply her 'normal' way of going.

Snickers always seems willing and trying to figure things out with a smile. If she could only talk! For example...when I first tried to ride her down a hill, she hesitated and backed up, completely wanted to avoid the situation. Then, after a few times, it got better....she would hesitate, but zigzag or whatever it took to get down that hill. Then after a few times of that...she seemed to have figured it out and just went down. I know this is probably normal for any green, young horse....but she really seems like she is trying to think about the task at hand due to her legs. When she does go down the hill, it definately looks different than the other horses...lol. She really pauses, calmly, and seems like she is trying to assess it all and be safe carrying me with her. Maybe I'm crazy...idk.

Anyhoo.....my next step is to have her tested for EPSM/PSSM because if she is positive, I can change her diet and see if it helps. I think there is also a possible medication for one of the neurological disorders to try. If all else fails then, there is nothing further I probably will do, except accept it and go on. If I didn't have those possibilities to help her, I would just accept it right now. She will just be a horse with limited capacity like no type of lunging, minimal arena work, going up/down steep or lengthy hills and cantering. I'm good with her just being a to die for, sane trail horse with no fireworks!!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Did you ask about acupuncture? I would consider it after the EPSM/PSSM Tests if they come up negative.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Did you ask about acupuncture? I would consider it after the EPSM/PSSM Tests if they come up negative.


Hey Desert...still have it in the back of my mind. I am still trying to find one. The only one I have so far is supposed to be EXTREMELY rediculously expensive. I've been told to be careful with choosing someone, and I've heard bad things about two others. So, I'm still on the search.

Chiro didn't even adjust her today saying that she felt it was a waste of my money while she may have a few little things to adjust, her hind end issue is much bigger and she wants me to put my money towards that. I asked her why, if it was a neurological thing, would she pass the physical tests that I've tried with her. She said it is probably because it is nothing new to her and she has adapted already since she has most likely already been like this since birth...this was just her observation and opinion, since she is not a vet. I appreciated it because the two vets I've had out to look at her haven't even been able to dx what it is with certainty.

I've been in touch with Dr. Beth Valentine, and she suggested starting with the EPSM/PSSM testing and go from there because if the test is positive, I can immediately try the diet change adding the fat etc....same as you suggested in the past. If it is negative, then I have the choice of taking her to a specialist to try and figure out if it is another neurological thing that they have come out with medication for or not that could possibly help. If not, then that's it.....just live with it. I can live with it at any time really and not do the other things, but since there is that glimmer of hope, I will try.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Have you done X rays to check for arthritis? She could have multiple joints with arthritis which would make it even harder to pinpoint the problem. 

She moves very stiffly in her back legs and doesn't want to bring them under her at all. I would guess some combination of hock/stifle problem or arthritis?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

4horses said:


> Have you done X rays to check for arthritis? She could have multiple joints with arthritis which would make it even harder to pinpoint the problem.
> 
> She moves very stiffly in her back legs and doesn't want to bring them under her at all. I would guess some combination of hock/stifle problem or arthritis?


No, I haven't. Vets and other professionals have sent me in so many different directions. I was hoping to at least kind of get two people saying the same type of thing instead of shaking their heads and guessing, at my expense. I wish I could just could take her somewhere and afford every test imagineable to be done on her, trust me, I would. I've gone from, "Oh it's her growing into her legs and being crossed with draft" to "It's stringhalt, here is the number for the surgeon" from vets. If I took everything I've been told to do, I'd be spending endless amounts of $$ already. So, I'm trying to start small with least invasive, least costly and work my way up. Granted, I am trying not to nickle and dime myself to death either. If I end up taking her to the specialist, that is likely where the xrays will come in amoungst who knows what else.

I'm supposed to take a video of her just being lead around and include going up and down a little hill. I will post it when I do. Thanks for the interest....I appreciate all the eyes I can get.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Can't really say much on this.

Along with the accupuncture suggestion, if you go that route I'd also suggest possibly looking into practitioners of animal EFT (emotional freedom technique aka tapping). It's essentially accupuncture without needles. It completely cured my mother of her 50+ year strong bridge phobia and turned my severe social anxiety disorder very mild in one session (I'm still working on that, it can take time because believe it or not, tapping can really wear you out).

I hope you find out what's going on with Snickers (my favorite candy bar by the way). She's a gorgeous mare.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If a saddle causes pain the path of the nerves extends all the way down the back legs to both sides of the each hoof. Give her a few days off, give her a good massage with the curry and try her bareback. It won't cost you anything and may provide a clue.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Reno Bay said:


> Can't really say much on this.
> 
> Along with the accupuncture suggestion, if you go that route I'd also suggest possibly looking into practitioners of animal EFT (emotional freedom technique aka tapping). It's essentially accupuncture without needles. It completely cured my mother of her 50+ year strong bridge phobia and turned my severe social anxiety disorder very mild in one session (I'm still working on that, it can take time because believe it or not, tapping can really wear you out).
> 
> I hope you find out what's going on with Snickers (my favorite candy bar by the way). She's a gorgeous mare.


Thanks...we have a girl at our ranch who does holistic stuff. She does accupuncture stuff, but only to humans. She did mention doing something to Snickers using rods???? Do you know what that would be? She was curious to see what chiro did first...she even highly recommended this particular chiro too.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I was thinking of asking specifically this chiro since she comes so highly recommended if she could refer you to an acupuncturist. 
The girl who does it...there are graphics with all horse acupuncture points online, I ran into some searching for you. 
Another possibility is finding a holistic forum or website specifically for horses. Google this. As you said, the more folks hear about it the greater the chance for constructive advice.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> If a saddle causes pain the path of the nerves extends all the way down the back legs to both sides of the each hoof. Give her a few days off, give her a good massage with the curry and try her bareback. It won't cost you anything and may provide a clue.


Thanks saddlebag....I had her saddle checked by chiro who is also a saddle fitter. She said it fit quite well. She didn't do any adjustments today, since she felt it would be a waste at this point. She did check her muscles and she was in good shape. I have ridden her before, multiple times, after not riding her under saddle and it was no different. It is even noticable without being under saddle, just on her own. I notice it most in the trot and definately the canter, not really the walk. But I am always in front of her or on her. Today chiro said it was there at the walk too....she would be walking fine and then like a step or two would be wider...she said her rhythm and cadence was off....but it is not consistent. I've noticed the inconsistency too in her gaits....it's almost like she can sometimes hold a rhythm like she is fine, and then it just falls apart and she has to start over.

She does not do the circling with her legs when turning, she backs up just fine, she doesn't walk drunk when she is blindfolded, she has great tail tone, she has great lateral flexion...the one think I question is when she takes her rear leg to scratch her face, like a dog, she sometimes needs to reposition to keep from falling over. Today chiro did a test where she would have a front leg forward, with the opposite rear leg forward...she would then try to pick up that diagonal front leg, and Snickers wouldn't reposition the hind leg appropriately. I tried to understand the best I could, but am not the best at seeing the way those things should work...lol.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I was thinking of asking specifically this chiro since she comes so highly recommended if she could refer you to an acupuncturist.
> The girl who does it...there are graphics with all horse acupuncture points online, I ran into some searching for you.
> Another possibility is finding a holistic forum or website specifically for horses. Google this. As you said, the more folks hear about it the greater the chance for constructive advice.


desert....I asked chiro about acupuncture, which she is and highly recommends it for horses....but, that I need to have an actual diagnosis made first.:<


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Makes sense.....so I guess the tests first. Gotta rule out one after the other, obviously.
If they come up negative, did she say what to do next?
I'm kinda with you in just living with it once certain things are ruled out. If Snickers can live with it.....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Makes sense.....so I guess the tests first. Gotta rule out one after the other, obviously.
> If they come up negative, did she say what to do next?
> I'm kinda with you in just living with it once certain things are ruled out. If Snickers can live with it.....


Well, I figured I'd do the EPSM/PSSM hair test...since that has a chance to be helped with the high fat diet. If neg, I may just chalk it up to it being her 'horsie disability' and only do things within her limits, taking a little at a time. No future of hacking up narrow, steep trails, cantering of any kind under saddle, no arena work and absolutely no lunging of any kind.

If I come up with $2000+ and someone to trailer her to the specialist that was suggested, I would think about it. But really...why? There is only a small chance that a neurological medication would be effective, if it would even apply to her specific problem anyway. I could spend another $2000 for a bone scan...again, really?...why? I can't fix her anyway.

We will just continue on, the way we already do. She is awesome.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Like I said, I'm with you on that. If she's okay with it and doesn't become a danger to you or herself....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Like I said, I'm with you on that. If she's okay with it and doesn't become a danger to you or herself....


If she ever declines to where she can't be ridden, then she will just be my happy pasture pet and go for walks being lead. I still woudln't give her up. Her personality has so much life and sweetness. Her best interest is always first.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Has this mare ever foaled? I've seen a horse who'd had a difficult delivery sustain severe nerve damage that affected her gait - particularly one leg and her yail. Hmmm... the mare I'm referring to made a complete recovery, although it was after extensive veterinary intervention and lots of $$$$$


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

sillyhorses said:


> Has this mare ever foaled? I've seen a horse who'd had a difficult delivery sustain severe nerve damage that affected her gait - particularly one leg and her yail. Hmmm... the mare I'm referring to made a complete recovery, although it was after extensive veterinary intervention and lots of $$$$$


No, she is a coming four year old. I got her when she was two. I'm thinking along the lines of that 'she' suffered the nerve damage when coming into the world. Maybe she has cerebral palsy? I had a dog suffer nerve damage after spending $2000 on her anal glands to be surgically fixed. She was never the same after that surgery....she turned into a three legged dog and had to eventually be put down from all the arthritis. I can't say I would risk it with my horse and pay LOTS of dollars.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Sorry, I can't read through this whole post. But you can answer or not, it's up to you  Has your vet done blood work and checked her Vit E levels? Does she have any stiffness when stretching anywhere through her body? Kissing Spines? Saddle soreness? Neck problems? 
If it was neuro, I don't think horses can just "adapt" since it is misfiring signals in the brain and neuro system. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem possible to me. Usually hind end neuro problems are caused by a neck injury.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I did not read through all of the answers, but I can tell you what I would do:

I would pull about 200 pounds of excess weight off of this mare and would put her on high doses of both Vitamin E and Vitamin B 1 (Thiamin).

I have used both with great success for several different neurological problems.

If you Google 'Vitamin B1 for nerve damage' and 'Vitamin E for nerve damage', you will find several articles and websites with these vitamins being used successfully for nerve damage and other neurological problems.

The huge amount of weight this mare is carrying has to be making her problem many times worse than it would be if she were at a healthy weight. It also has to exacerbate any metabolic problems she might have and puts her at risk for Laminitis.

Again, if she were mine and I lived in CA, after pulling the weight off of her and putting her on the Vitamins E and Thiamin for 60 days and she still had problems, I would take her to Dr. Doug Herthel at Alamo Pintado in Los Olivos, CA. His clinic is World Renowned for diagnosing difficult problems. I have recommended him to several people in CA and he has been fantastic. He is also the person that developed the 'Platinum Performance' set of supplements. He is not cheap, but he is good. I think he is probably 250 to 300 miles from you. He is near Santa Barbara.

But, I would try the weight loss and Vitamins first, before I did anything else.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Sorry, I can't read through this whole post. But you can answer or not, it's up to you  Has your vet done blood work and checked her Vit E levels? Does she have any stiffness when stretching anywhere through her body? Kissing Spines? Saddle soreness? Neck problems?
> If it was neuro, I don't think horses can just "adapt" since it is misfiring signals in the brain and neuro system. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem possible to me. Usually hind end neuro problems are caused by a neck injury.


Thanks for the post. Kissing spine is interesting to me. I just had chiro out and she had nothing going on in her neck. She never shows any signs of soreness or being unhappy. She is always quite aloof and goes along with everything. She was only started under saddle this past summer and has been trail riding over the past few months. She showed the abnormality when I first purchased her as a two year old and has the same gait whether she is under saddle or not. When I purchased her, I noticed something different, but wasn't sure if it was anything to be concerned with or not. I had the vet look at her before taking her. The vet said she was butt high and a draft cross....she seemed to be growing into her legs and was in a growth spurt. Since then, more vet visits to look at her, farriers, chiro, massage therapy, trainers....nobody can seem to pinpoint anything at all. I was concerned with wobblers....she passes all the physical tests. She is very flexible in her neck, does lateral movements, backs up fine, can walk blind-folded, does not do circling with her legs in a tight circle, good tail tone, doesn't show any type of misfiring at the walk. Some people thought she was trying to gait. Her cadence/rhythm is way off at times, but not always. When she walks, she walks base narrow, then may take a step or two wider, then back to base narrow...she seems 'loosy goosy' in the behind. At the trot, she smacks her hind legs down, this I guess was why the recent vet diagnosed her with stringhalt. She also crosses over with her legs. When she steps out of the trot to the walk she goes from base narrow out to a wider stance maybe?...for balance?...I think. At the canter she sometimes gets a good rhythm and she looks fine, and then something happens and her legs go wonky. When slowing down, her butt and legs go underneath her like she is doing a reining stop. It looks like if you were standing with your knees locked, and someone did the karate chop thing behind your knees and they gave out. It looks like the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz. The weird thing is that it is all not consistent. It almost looks like her fetlocks lock up sometimes.

I am going to try and get some video with the help of a friend while I lead her so people can see. Nothing has changed since I got her and started riding her. I ride her almost everyday from just riding around the ranch to trail riding for a couple hours. There are times when she was hesitent with something, like an incline on a trail, but she seems to think and figure it out and then does not hesitate the next time. I don't over push or expect too much. If it seems like a situation that may not be good for her, I get off and walk her over it. She has never fallen or anything such as that.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I did not read through all of the answers, but I can tell you what I would do:
> 
> I would pull about 200 pounds of excess weight off of this mare and would put her on high doses of both Vitamin E and Vitamin B 1 (Thiamin).
> 
> ...


Thank you Cherie...

I would LOVE to get some weight off! I just don't know how? I have her and my percheron...I would love for both of them to be slimmer. Between the two of them, they get about 8 flakes of bermuda hay a day and a ration balancer. Snickers gets 1.5lbs of Nutrena Empower Balance....in the middle of switching to the Purina Enrich 32. That is all they get. When I am out there, their grass is opened up for a couple hours and the grass right now is mixed with green grass and dead grass right now. How do I lessen their hay to where they aren't going all day/night without eating? These guys are trail ridden almost daily right now. I can't ride more than I do. I had signed up for the FeedXL site and thought that it had said with the ration balancer and hay/grass combo that they were getting all the vit amounts they needed already. I'd be glad to try supplementing more, if I need to, just don't want to OD.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Slowfeeder nets for slowing and consequently lessening hay intake. If you don't use them already I'd wholeheartedly recommend them.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Slowfeeder nets for slowing and consequently lessening hay intake. If you don't use them already I'd wholeheartedly recommend them.


Oh yes, I remember reading that before. Excellent. I will be investing in some of them.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've made my own, with slightly bigger holes for the oat hay, a couple of hours work and some baling twine, and am now at 2" standard holes, since they mastered the oat hay;-)
My hay bill is down dramatically, horses are never out of hay and consequently never hungry. 
They used to have about 30lbs each a day, nearly 10 lbs each ended up inedible, now maybe a pound, max 2 is on the ground, but not trampled and they together eat 20-25 lbs. Together, not each!. I keep my nets full, but weighed everything daily for about a month, and that is what they consume. Most amazing!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I've made my own, with slightly bigger holes for the oat hay, a couple of hours work and some baling twine, and am now at 2" standard holes, since they mastered the oat hay;-)
> My hay bill is down dramatically, horses are never out of hay and consequently never hungry.
> They used to have about 30lbs each a day, nearly 10 lbs each ended up inedible, now maybe a pound, max 2 is on the ground, but not trampled and they together eat 20-25 lbs. Together, not each!. I keep my nets full, but weighed everything daily for about a month, and that is what they consume. Most amazing!


I bought two hay nets this afternoon and used them for their evening feeding. I think the holes are too big though since they could stick their muzzles right in it no problem. Good idea with baling twine...I could maybe just fix those making the holes smaller rather than buy new ones?

So, is it that they don't eat as fast that makes them loose the weight? Or, do they actually have to have less hay daily? The hay they got for their dinner was enough to fill two large hay bags comfortably, not stuffed.


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## Shenandoah (Aug 9, 2010)

Have you had her tested for Lymes? I've seen horses with similar hind end problems test positive for Lymes, and then improve after a round of Doxy.
Just another of the many things to check.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Shenandoah said:


> Have you had her tested for Lymes? I've seen horses with similar hind end problems test positive for Lymes, and then improve after a round of Doxy.
> Just another of the many things to check.


Yeah, thanks though....I really do appreciate the interest from everyone. I'm a little overwhelmed with information and things to think about at the moment. I'm going to start with the hair testing so I at least know what diet to stick to right now. Then, I will mention everything again to the vet at spring shots time and see if any additional bloodwork should be drawn for anything while they are there. Then, when I win the lottery or at least am hopefully still not unemployed, I will put money away for future expensive stuff, if necessary. I am going to simply enjoy walking on the trails with her and try to breathe again a little.

I will still continue to post any videos, if I get some decent ones...it's hard not having them be shakey....just in case it makes a light bulb go off in someone's head.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> I bought two hay nets this afternoon and used them for their evening feeding. I think the holes are too big though since they could stick their muzzles right in it no problem. Good idea with baling twine...I could maybe just fix those making the holes smaller rather than buy new ones?
> 
> So, is it that they don't eat as fast that makes them loose the weight? Or, do they actually have to have less hay daily? The hay they got for their dinner was enough to fill two large hay bags comfortably, not stuffed.


definitely too big...the holes. With grasshay they shouldn't be bigger than 2". You can put one into the other to reduce the size of the holes until you can get real ones or make them.
The idea behind them is mimicking grazing, a bite here, a bite there, not stuffing mouths full into themselves. They can pull out little only, so they have to work for it. So they chew better, have always a little in the stomach and learn that they never run out. 
Amazingly enough, fat horses slim down, skinny ones gain.
Best thing for horses since sliced bread... .. kinda


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## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> <snip> Best thing for horses since sliced bread... .. kinda <snip>


Absolutely agree with this statement. I was feeding hay loose on the ground in Fayde's stall and she wasted more than she ate by rooting around in it and spreading it out and stomping it into the poo.  :-(

Since I put up slow feed 2"x2" hay nets there is almost no wasted hay. As she pulls out each little bite some loose stuff falls to the ground under the net, but not even much of that goes to waste. As a little pile forms under the net, Fayde reaches down and vacuums it right up.

And she went from being finished eating most and ruining the rest in an hour or so, to a net full lasting her a good 4 or 5 hours. Woot! bonus! :happydance:


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I think I actually took some decent video today. Here is 1 of 3. The others are still uploading....just incase anyone wants to see....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

#2


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> I think I actually took some decent video today. Here is 1 of 3. The others are still uploading....just incase anyone wants to see....
> 
> 20130222_104401.mp4 - YouTube


This really looks like locking stifle, coming out of the canter.....


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Sticking to my "diagnosis".....you're sure you don't want to try the squared toe
?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree.. sublaxation of the stifle.. looks like her "knee cap" locks..


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Last one....
She CAN run, it's just when she slows down....everything falls apart.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Really?..locking stifle? Maybe she has more than one thing happening? I am particularly wondering how she throws her right hind leg/hip out after she slows from trot to walk....

I will try and get video walking up and down a hill this weekend. Chiro thought her cadence was just waaaay off.

Thanks guys.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

As far as hay bags go, I highly recommend this one. My 10 month old colt has had it for a couple months now and it's in perfect condition even though he absolutely abuses it. The description says it only holds 2 flakes, but I can stuff almost 20 pounds of hay in there, which is about 4 flakes of my coastal hay. It really slows down their consumption so they eat longer on less hay. It's great! 

Slow Feed Nylon Hay Bags by Derby Originals


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Kayella said:


> As far as hay bags go, I highly recommend this one. My 10 month old colt has had it for a couple months now and it's in perfect condition even though he absolutely abuses it. The description says it only holds 2 flakes, but I can stuff almost 20 pounds of hay in there, which is about 4 flakes of my coastal hay. It really slows down their consumption so they eat longer on less hay. It's great!
> 
> Slow Feed Nylon Hay Bags by Derby Originals


Thanks Kayella! No problems with lips getting sores or anything? I think I may try this one too. I double bagged the two large hole ones I had today...really need the smaller hole ones.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, so is her RH the main problem? And the first video, right at about 47 seconds....is that what your mainly concerned with? I believe, if it is locking stifles, there is a very simple and easy procedure that will fix it. I know the procedure, just can't remember if it is for locking stifles. You need to send these videos (esp the first one) to a few vets. I HIGHLY recommend Oregon State University. Dr. Mckenzie is AMAZING!!! And so incredibly helpful. You should try calling vets from around your state and asking their opinion and if they wouldn't mind looking at the vids for you.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Nope, no sore lips. The holes are just big enough for him to pull strands of hay through without any issues.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Those look like regular hay nets. Am i wrong?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Ok, so is her RH the main problem? And the first video, right at about 47 seconds....is that what your mainly concerned with? I believe, if it is locking stifles, there is a very simple and easy procedure that will fix it. I know the procedure, just can't remember if it is for locking stifles. You need to send these videos (esp the first one) to a few vets. I HIGHLY recommend Oregon State University. Dr. Mckenzie is AMAZING!!! And so incredibly helpful. You should try calling vets from around your state and asking their opinion and if they wouldn't mind looking at the vids for you.


Thanks Army wife! No, actually the 47 sec thing I think was her being a goof over the bucket and she hopped. You can see where she throws her rt hip/leg out at 1:13 of that first video. She does that whenever she comes from a trot to a walk.

Oh how I wish I could go up to Oregon! I think that is where Dr. Beth Valentine is too! I could have them look at Snicker's legs AND diet all at the same time!...lol.

Someone else told me today about sending the video to vets....that may be a good idea. Can't hurt. I would like to get the videos this weekend with her going up and down a hill too before I do though. Kind of well-rounds everything, I think.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Those look like regular hay nets. Am i wrong?


Yes, I bought them temporarily until I get the other one through the mail.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Yes! Send em to any vet who will watch it!!! When I couldn't find out what was wrong with my mare, I called almost every vet in Oregon and northern Cali!!! Don't give up. McKenzie sent my mares vids to uc davis just to confirm her diagnosis. OSU is amazing. I can't say enough about the vets there  even their head surgeon came out to do her lameness exam. And the price!!!!! Cheapest vet trip (as far as total package) I've ever had.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I thought this was really interesting.....especially the 'Fibrotic myopathy' and 'locking stifle' part. Now I am really looking forward to submitting her mane hair to check for the EPSM gene.....

Rural Heritage Vet Clinic - Signs of EPSM in Draft Horses


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I, after seeing a thread about an awkward gait, recognized fibrotic myopathy in my Snipper. She has that "slapping" down way of moving her right hind, shorter stride to. She does have a fist size lump on her hamstring and I can feel the scar below the lump. Her way of setting that foot down is pretty similar to Snickers' moving. The locking stifle signs I know from a standardbred I had in Italy, he would come out of a canter like that sometimes. He also seriously locked his stifle, so I'm sure about this causing his problem cantering.
Sooooooo.......maybe you're close to a solution ......finally. 
Btw, got a kick out of your Belle when she was taking off after Snickers


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I, after seeing a thread about an awkward gait, recognized fibrotic myopathy in my Snipper. She has that "slapping" down way of moving her right hind, shorter stride to. She does have a fist size lump on her hamstring and I can feel the scar below the lump. Her way of setting that foot down is pretty similar to Snickers' moving. The locking stifle signs I know from a standardbred I had in Italy, he would come out of a canter like that sometimes. He also seriously locked his stifle, so I'm sure about this causing his problem cantering.
> Sooooooo.......maybe you're close to a solution ......finally.
> Btw, got a kick out of your Belle when she was taking off after Snickers


I really am starting to think that Snickers has more than one thing going on. In watching her canter around the arena today, while playing with Belle, her leg all the sudden looked like it wouldn't bend. She slowed down with her legs all over the place and then got herself together. Stifle, hock?....idk...just no bend to it in one of the strides. None of this is consistent. Sometimes, she looks great and then other times different things happen. I didn't get the peg leg on video though.

So, I will continue on the way I have. I started both girls on a EPSM high fat diet today. Didn't have to alter too much so far with the gradual adding of oil. I ordered the small hole hay nets yesterday. I will send in the manes of both girls to be tested for the EPSM/PSSM gene soon.

I must say though....I rode Snickers today, walking around the ranch and in the arena. I had her sidepassing, yielding hindquarters and forequarters, and backing. She has absolutely no problems and just does everything I ask without hesitation. I decided to jog her lightly for the exercise. I ride her as a passenger, no steering really, just having her hold the gait. She has really come a long way in the past several weeks. I used to carry a crop and have to constantly get after her to hold the jog. Now she holds it really well! I hear her hind feet slapping the ground and she probably looks like a goof, but she is doing it!

I did these couple of videos today of her going uphill and downhill and in the arena running with Belle. She seems ok going uphill, but downhill you can see how she knuckles over...I'm not thinking it's normal. She doesn knuckle over in the arena once too. These will most likely be it for the video. I think with these recent videos, I've captured most of what she does. I'll update with the EPSM results and if the diet affects her at all.

Yes, Belle is quite a character. She acts prudish most of the time, but gets her playfulness on once in a while too. She is doing really well, in my opinion, for almost being 20 years old and in such rough shape a couple years ago.

Sorry for my daughter holding the camera the wrong way and making the first two videos narrow....


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

She has, from what you describe and from what can be seen in the videos, she shows classic signs of EPSM. The slapping down, the pseudo- locking stifle, appearing weak in the hind, being a draft cross on top. All there. Can't remember if the article mentioned when you can expect to see changes. It will take some time, I guess.
I'll be crossing everything cross-able


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Does she have a hard time holding that left lead in the hind?

desert, isn't muscle wastage a symptom? Especially over the topline?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Army wife....it's all in the link OHL posted further up, #64. I think it said especially hind end.
I just learned all that after reading about EPSM/PSSM....I never had drafts. I've just seen these particular symptoms in my horses, one each


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> She has, from what you describe and from what can be seen in the videos, she shows classic signs of EPSM. The slapping down, the pseudo- locking stifle, appearing weak in the hind, being a draft cross on top. All there. Can't remember if the article mentioned when you can expect to see changes. It will take some time, I guess.
> I'll be crossing everything cross-able


Would you say she has muscle wasting? I thought if she did, that you would really be able to tell by looking at her....I also have no eye for that kind of stuff. She has definately gained muscle over the past year and filled out.

The only thing she doesn't have, at least yet, are the symptoms:

Muscle wasting?
Trembling after work
Difficulty rising and backing
Lying down suddenly
Tying up

But, if it is EPSM, maybe it is a milder version or just hasn't happend yet.

Thanks for the support.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Feedingfattomanagemuscledisorders.pdf

In reading this article today, I found some points quite interesting....

On page 3, it talks about the differences between the EPSM and PSSM....
It talks about PSSM horses having calm dispositions. It talks about the horses being unable to stand etc. While Snickers doesn't lay down or anything, she is fidgety...not sure if that is because she is young or just her personality though. It also states, that in PSSM the horses would not have the muscle loss and backing problems etc. like in EPSM. Wow.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Would you say she has muscle wasting? I thought if she did, that you would really be able to tell by looking at her....I also have no eye for that kind of stuff. She has definately gained muscle over the past year and filled out.
> 
> The only thing she doesn't have, at least yet, are the symptoms:
> 
> ...


Like I said, I know only what I read. What I can imagine is that her being young might be one reason she might have less symptoms. Another I can think of is nutrition. I don't think she ever ate like a drafty in work would. 
Tying up happens after work or after a starch overload. Muscle wasting....hard to tell from video and pics. Plus she's a bit rotund at the moment. 

But, if you think about what job muscles have....it could be that lack/waste of muscle causes the gait abnormalities.

Btw, I'm having fun guessing and reasoning....and all will be stored for later use;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Like I said, I know only what I read. What I can imagine is that her being young might be one reason she might have less symptoms. Another I can think of is nutrition. I don't think she ever ate like a drafty in work would.
> Tying up happens after work or after a starch overload. Muscle wasting....hard to tell from video and pics. Plus she's a bit rotund at the moment.
> 
> But, if you think about what job muscles have....it could be that lack/waste of muscle causes the gait abnormalities.
> ...


 
You are right desert....once diet is completely adjusted with the hay nets for weight loss and then adding the full ration of oil, I think that will play a big part over the next several weeks.

The muscle part makes much more sense now, especially after learning more about the PSSM....so much so, it brought me to tears...because I feel like I am not crazy and it's a relief. Same reaction when my daughter was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome after so many other ailments that didn't seem to quite fit.

Onward we go.....at least I have a direction now.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Subbing as I would like to know the diagnosis. 

Keep at it! I hope it all comes together soon.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I just went and searched on my tried and true favourite health website thehorse.com

Long long and very interesting article came up. The diet change seems to be the only cure there is for EPSM. It will take up to 6 months to see a change, it might get worse before it gets better, there is not really proof of it being genetic, the biopsy is sometimes misleading. Lots of owners change diet and, if horse has improved after 6 months, have their diagnosis.

It did name a lot of symptoms, says some horses show them more, others more subtle.
But it fits Snickers.

TheHorse: Your Guide to Equine Health Care | TheHorse.com
Sign up, it's free, and type "EPSM" in the search bar. Firs article who comes up, big horses big appetite.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I just went and searched on my tried and true favourite health website thehorse.com
> 
> Long long and very interesting article came up. The diet change seems to be the only cure there is for EPSM. It will take up to 6 months to see a change, it might get worse before it gets better, there is not really proof of it being genetic, the biopsy is sometimes misleading. Lots of owners change diet and, if horse has improved after 6 months, have their diagnosis.
> 
> ...


I will definately read that, thank you.

I went on a ride today on Belle, while Snickers was lead by my daughter. We rode up and down the side of the mountain across the street on one of the boarder patrol gravel roads. I was glad to be behind Snickers so I could see her feet, since I'm usually the one leading her. The slope was pretty good incline. It kills me when I've walked it. Snickers seemed fine on the way up mostly. She would stop to take a break every so often. Going down, she didn't stop, but you could clearly see that her hind fetlocks would pop and drag after a little while or when the slope got a little steeper.

At this point, I would be surprised if she didn't have EPSM/PSSM.

I weighed their hay today and they get about 40lbs a day for the two of them and often have some left over....so they are not getting too much for sure. My small hole haybags are on backorder. So, I'm waiting. Just doubled the large hole one I have.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Could you manage to make one out of bale strings? Requires no hardware and a couple of hours time. I can walk you through it if you want;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks again desert....I read the article and am very familiar with Dr. Valentine and the diet. So, even though the girls have been on a low sugar, low carb diet......they still need that fat increase for the diet to be successful. I hadn't added the fat in the past because of them being overweight. But, what I've learned is, that these horses will actually soak up the added fat like a sponge, since their muscles need it to use for energy. Plus you have to reach that 20-25% level in order for it to be effective. So, now it makes sense to me.

They are getting their portion of their ration balancer mixed with soaked alfalfa cubes and the oil. It will get harder as I increase their oil....Belle will have to have 4 cups...so, hopefully she will keep eating. I'll increase the soaked alfalfa cubes if I need to. I don't want to do the rice bran. Then they get the 40 pounds of hay a day between the two of them and their pasture, later on.

I really feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I don't think of it as a death sentence. I hope she improved over the months. But a walking trail horse for me is good too as long as she can before she is retired later in life.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

There's always the possibility of adding Purina Amplify, or the Omega Horseshine, which gives extra fat AND "matter" to put the oil in.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Could you manage to make one out of bale strings? Requires no hardware and a couple of hours time. I can walk you through it if you want;-)


Sure! I'm still unemployed and nothing but time to kill out there!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Knfl90aSzM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Basic how to
You need to try a little how far apart you want the knots, so the holes don't get too big/small. 
With the strings, it will not be very long, so your best bet is make two parts, door width, and mend them. Then take 3 strings and braid them, as the draw string to close it and hang it up on. Ta-daaaaahhh....done


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND. 
I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND. 
I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND.
> I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?


 
I just figured out that EPSM and PSSM are the same as you said. I was under the impression that they may have been two seperate, but related things...but I was wrong.

Army...how do you supplement vit E? I'm not sure if she gets enough with the ration balancer or not now. Snickers has never tied up or had muscle tremors either. After my really observing her and learning much lately, she looks like she has a combination of fibrotic myopathy with locking stifle. She is actually very controlled under saddle, more so as to when she is just running around. However, I don't have her cantering or anything either. I would not ever ride her down a steep trail either. I witnessed her from behind yesterday walking down a steep gravel road. Her fetlocks would look like they would pop and then drag with each step at times.

Desert.....I was going to attempt the hay bag today, however, the original ones I ordered are on back order and so I found a local tack store that has them instead. I'm going to get them today....same ones, the nibble nets.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Great!
Since you mentioned locking stifle and fibromyopathy again.....I'm wondering, seriously, if it would help her to square her hind toes. What it does, and why it helps with LS, is, it makes her come off the foot before the leg is fully stretched, which is the moment when the ligament catches on the patella in a true LS horse. It just might be worth a try and for sure doesn't hurt, it'll grow back.
For FM I read feeding extra magnesium is helpful. People use mag for muscle cramps and such, so it makes sense.....I also got Thermaflex liniment for Snipper, to massage the scar tissue on her butt. Thermaflex deep-heats tissues. But that wouldn't do much for Snickers, I guess.....;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here is an email from Dr. Valentine today....

Lisa, I just checked out the you tube walk/trot video and this looks just like so many EPSM horses I have worked with. It has served me well to say “anything unexplained about the hind end of a draft related horse is EPSM until proven otherwise.” She has that slightly stiff “swing from the hip with little hock or stifle bend” that is very common in EPSM horses. At a trot she looks “pony gaited.”

So, no matter what the test results I definitely recommend diet change. I suspect that you will find you have more horse than you thought, with more energy (I hope this is OK!), and I’m betting you’ll be eventually able to canter along as well as walk and trot. 

Definitely let me know. And keep videotaping as that is a great way to see changes.

Beth V

Desert....Well, the haynets are being ordered at my local tack shock now...they ran out of them. :-( So, I attempted to modify my big hole ones. Not sure how much it did though. I will attempt making some for fun.

I brought up the square toe with my farrier and he, at this point, disagrees. He has done a really good job for me so far in keeping them both very sound. So, for now, I will leave it as it is. I totally get what you are saying though.:wink:

I bought vit E today and I'm thinking about the Mag. Just wondering if they are already getting what they need in the ration balancer? I have to look at the label again and hope I don't get too confused.:shock:


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> I just figured out that EPSM and PSSM are the same as you said. I was under the impression that they may have been two seperate, but related things...but I was wrong.
> 
> Army...how do you supplement vit E? I'm not sure if she gets enough with the ration balancer or not now. Snickers has never tied up or had muscle tremors either. After my really observing her and learning much lately, she looks like she has a combination of fibrotic myopathy with locking stifle. She is actually very controlled under saddle, more so as to when she is just running around. However, I don't have her cantering or anything either. I would not ever ride her down a steep trail either. I witnessed her from behind yesterday walking down a steep gravel road. Her fetlocks would look like they would pop and then drag with each step at times.
> 
> Desert.....I was going to attempt the hay bag today, however, the original ones I ordered are on back order and so I found a local tack store that has them instead. I'm going to get them today....same ones, the nibble nets.



Look at your balancer and let me know how many UI's she's getting daily. Also, (VERY IMPORTANT) is the scientific name. Does it start with a D-ALPHA-...
or does it start with DL-ALPHA-....
D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL (last word can be slightly diff,) is the natural form of vit E. If your feeding synthetic, your probably just wasting your time and money. 
Natural vit E is EXTREMELY important. It's one of those vitamins that can't really be replicated in a way that makes it effective. Horses getting synthetic vit E only get about half the UI's as it says they will. Ask Dr. Beth and see what she thinks maybe?
I THINK a normal horse should be on about 1,000 UI's daily. 
Since my horse developed EMND, she will be on at least 2,000 UI's daily for the rest of her life. And maybe even more, a lot more. So that is one disease that you want to prevent, and it's incredibly easy to do so!!!
Also worth noting....vit E has been known to play a huge role in horses with neuro problems.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Chicks sells the small mesh hay nets, for less than $9 each. Are you familiar with kissing spine? The closest comparison is low back pain in humans. I've seen people with low back pain walking in a peculair fashion in an effort to reduce the pain. This generally occurs in shorter backed horses.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Here is an email from Dr. Valentine today....
> 
> Lisa, I just checked out the you tube walk/trot video and this looks just like so many EPSM horses I have worked with. It has served me well to say “anything unexplained about the hind end of a draft related horse is EPSM until proven otherwise.” She has that slightly stiff “swing from the hip with little hock or stifle bend” that is very common in EPSM horses. At a trot she looks “pony gaited.”
> 
> ...


Well, she basically said what we assumed...change diet and you might not need to do anything else.
pretty soon you'll be complaining and posting a new thread" how to calm an overly lively draftX"....
And by all means, go by what your farrier says. It was just an idea and probably wouldn't even do anything anyway;-)
Mag....the RB will probably take care of it, but it wouldn't hurt asking Dr. Valentine about it when you get a chance


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Look at your balancer and let me know how many UI's she's getting daily. Also, (VERY IMPORTANT) is the scientific name. Does it start with a D-ALPHA-...
> or does it start with DL-ALPHA-....
> D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL (last word can be slightly diff,) is the natural form of vit E. If your feeding synthetic, your probably just wasting your time and money.
> Natural vit E is EXTREMELY important. It's one of those vitamins that can't really be replicated in a way that makes it effective. Horses getting synthetic vit E only get about half the UI's as it says they will. Ask Dr. Beth and see what she thinks maybe?
> ...


Oh thank you for that information! I had NO idea about the vit E....or anything else dietary really....it gets so confusing. I will have to look at the bottle tomorrow. It is at the ranch.

She has been on a pound and a half of Nutrena Empower Balance for about a year. After reviewing the information provided by FeedXL, and looking at the Purina Enrich 32, I thought it was better to change over to the Purina. So, she is getting half and half right now to change over. Here are the values from the websites:

Purina Enrich 32:

CRUDE PROTEINMIN32.00%LYSINEMIN2.70%CRUDE FATMAX5.00%CRUDE FIBERMIN5.50%CALCIUM (CA)MIN2.85%CALCIUM (CA)MAX3.85%PHOSPHORUSMIN1.60%COPPER (CU)MIN185PPMSELENIUM (SE)MIN1.50PPMZINC (ZN)MIN500PPMVITAMIN AMIN24000IU/LBVITAMIN EMIN500IU/LB


and then the Nutrena Empower Balance:

*Nutrient**Level*Crude Protein30.0%Lysine2.2%Methionine0.6%Threonine1.2%Crude Fat5.0%Crude Fibermax. 8.0%Dietary Starch*max. 8.0%Sugar*max. 6.0%Calcium3.0% - 3.5%Phosphorus1.5%Copper250 ppmZinc750 ppmSelenium2.5 ppmVitamin A18,000 IU/lbVitamin D1,800 IU/lbVitamin E600 IU/lbBiotin1.5 mg/lb
* NSC (Non-structural Carbohydrates) = Dietary Starch + Sugar

I really appreciate all the help I can get to get this all squared away. Thanks again!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Chicks sells the small mesh hay nets, for less than $9 each. Are you familiar with kissing spine? The closest comparison is low back pain in humans. I've seen people with low back pain walking in a peculair fashion in an effort to reduce the pain. This generally occurs in shorter backed horses.


Thanks Saddlebag....I'll just wait, it shouldn't be too long.

I never heard of Kissing Spine until it was mentioned recently...maybe by you? I did read some about it. Chiro never mentioned anything about it when she checked her. I'm thinking she really felt there was something else going on that wasn't spinal. For now, I will continue on the EPSM route and see where it gets me.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Well, she basically said what we assumed...change diet and you might not need to do anything else.
> pretty soon you'll be complaining and posting a new thread" how to calm an overly lively draftX"....
> And by all means, go by what your farrier says. It was just an idea and probably wouldn't even do anything anyway;-)
> Mag....the RB will probably take care of it, but it wouldn't hurt asking Dr. Valentine about it when you get a chance


Toooooo funny desert! I'm interested in seeing if her behavior will really change!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

P.S. What is 'pony gaited'?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Short, quick steps, sewing machine like.....I guess;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Look at your balancer and let me know how many UI's she's getting daily. Also, (VERY IMPORTANT) is the scientific name. Does it start with a D-ALPHA-...
> or does it start with DL-ALPHA-....
> D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL (last word can be slightly diff,) is the natural form of vit E. If your feeding synthetic, your probably just wasting your time and money.
> Natural vit E is EXTREMELY important. It's one of those vitamins that can't really be replicated in a way that makes it effective. Horses getting synthetic vit E only get about half the UI's as it says they will. Ask Dr. Beth and see what she thinks maybe?
> ...


Ugh....I have the vit e dl.......


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, I'm told that Snickers fell down today by another boarder. She was running around because of another lose horse or something. I did notice her balking today when leading her. She stops for like 5 seconds, then continues on. Poor baby.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Poor baby:-(
But it will get better.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> Ugh....I have the vit e dl.......


Darn it!! But at least now you know for next time you buy!! How many units is she getting daily?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Army wife said:


> Darn it!! But at least now you know for next time you buy!! How many units is she getting daily?


Where do I buy the natural? According to her ration balancer...she is probably getting about 60UI's from that.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I found on Horse Supplies, Pet Supplies, Farm Supplies, Goat Supplies - Valley Vet Supply

Elevate Maintenance powder and Elevate Se, both by Kentucky Performance.
#20854 and #20855
the second is with selenium.
They ship very quickly, I get my stuff from them all the time.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I found on Horse Supplies, Pet Supplies, Farm Supplies, Goat Supplies - Valley Vet Supply
> 
> Elevate Maintenance powder and Elevate Se, both by Kentucky Performance.
> #20854 and #20855
> ...


Our area is not supposed to be selenium deficient and RB has 2.5ppm...whatever that means. Do you think that would be enough? I have my Valley Vet Supply catalogue here so I will look the Elevate up. Thanks!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> Our area is not supposed to be selenium deficient and RB has 2.5ppm...whatever that means. Do you think that would be enough? I have my Valley Vet Supply catalogue here so I will look the Elevate up. Thanks!


Oops...SE is 1.50ppm.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

How much selenium is good and how much too much is somewhere online, I'm sure......whoever finds it post please;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> How much selenium is good and how much too much is somewhere online, I'm sure......whoever finds it post please;-)


Rural Heritage Vet Clinic - Importance of Selenium

1-3mg is ok, but 50mg is toxic? I think the 1.5ppm is less than 1mg?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That is 0,00015%.....the.1,5ppm. 
Pure math....allow me to do that tomorrow morning....;-)


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> Rural Heritage Vet Clinic - Importance of Selenium
> 
> 1-3mg is ok, but 50mg is toxic? I think the 1.5ppm is less than 1mg?


Yeah, too much SEL is toxic. Desert, was that link for EquiSe-E? (something like that...lol)
If so, they also use synthetic vit E, I already looked  
That stuff was recommended by a lot of ppl. But you can buy natural E at the health food store. Much cheaper and its still the same vitamin.
Geesh, I would think a RB would have a much higher dose!! Good to know though, I'll probably be switching to an RB when I get home


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

No, its Elevate, natural vit e...I made sure after you reminded me of the difference;-)


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> No, its Elevate, natural vit e...I made sure after you reminded me of the difference;-)


Hhmm, thank you  i just might have to look into that!


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

I feed 4 mg of selenium yeast along with 1200 mg of Vitamin E. My horses selenium range from 0.19 tp 0.215.

Hind end lameness can also be attributed to a low selenium. My guy was both low and had PSSM......getting his selenium helped alot with the soreness issue but because he has a moderate case of PSSM he will never be rideable.....he is the best baby sitter every.

Super Nova


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok, I think I will be ordering the Elevate with the SE in it.

Today Snickers seemed irritated a bit. I rode her briefly bareback in a halter at the walk, just for exercise. She seemed fine then. But, then I gave her a bath and I think I got water in her ears. She did do a bit of bucking when I walked her back to her pasture. When she was loose, she did all kinds of bucks too, the four legs off the ground type and the rear end off the ground kind. She was bit**ier with Belle too. I pet them both for a bit while they were eating and Snickers kept pinning her ears at Belle and walking away from me. I walked after her at one point and she bucked and trotted off. So, unless it is a coincidence, she is not feeling good. I've NEVER had her act like this. So, I'm going to lay off. Lead her around the ranch for exercise, but not too much pressure on her, just take it slow. Maybe her muscles are hurting now. I feel so bad.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Don't. We are all no masters in reading minds. 
She could be coming in heat, too.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Don't. We are all no masters in reading minds.
> She could be coming in heat, too.


 
I know, just letting my worries get ahead of me. When Snickers is in season, she is actually like a cat and loves everybody even more..lol.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I can imagine lol, but....she's almost grown up now, so that might change.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I can imagine lol, but....she's almost grown up now, so that might change.


 
Noooooooooooooo....not my pooky doo pony baby!...lol, just kidding. I know she is going through the lovely teenage years at the moment. I've already raised two teenage human daughters, so I have my big guns ready! :hide:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Four legged children are a lot easier;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Today is the day where I will be taking 20 hair samples from both my girls and send them off to University of Minnesota for EPSM testing.

What do you think is the best way to get a good sample with roots? Website doesn't say. I guess pluck them and as long as they have that little ball of white at the end I'm good?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'd say to grab the hair as close as possible to the root and tug;-). So it doesn't break off leaving the "little white ball" in;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Lunged Snickers today and she slapped the ground a little more than yesterday in the trot with her hind feet, but still improved as far as being able to actually hold it.

It is very hard to hold my phone to video tape and not confuse her....lol.

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?video_id=NbgtUQK1ZOo&ns=1


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Ehm...the link sends me to Google????.....notorious for not remembering my password........I.e......no clue......


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Ehm...the link sends me to Google????.....notorious for not remembering my password........I.e......no clue......


 
Hmmmm...that is wierd, I just clicked on it and it was fine. Here is my FB page link...see if that works.

https://www.facebook.com/lisa.siege...747742720765&set=vb.1378144969&type=2&theater


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I watched the video, read the first page and then the last two pages. It seems like you are going in a completely different direction - but it looks like stifle injuries to me.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Hmmmm...that is wierd, I just clicked on it and it was fine. Here is my FB page link...see if that works.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/lisa.siege...747742720765&set=vb.1378144969&type=2&theater


FB requires flash player, don't have one on the phone....I guess I'll have to search for my Google password( im on a Google phone, maybe that's why I have to go through Google?)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> FB requires flash player, don't have one on the phone....I guess I'll have to search for my Google password( im on a Google phone, maybe that's why I have to go through Google?)


Not sure...I'm computer illiterate.

If you can go to You Tube directly and search Snickers EPSM...It will be the one that says....EPSM Snickers trot in roundpen.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That worked
It might sound stupid.....im still seeing the lack of " connection" between hip/ butt and legs. 
She looks like she is trying to keep her knees together while trotting, all movement is below the stifles. Emphasis on " looks like". Lack of strength in the large muscles makes more and more sense, tho.
And is she ever so sweet....;-)


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Did her epsm test come back yet?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

EPSM results not back yet. Even if they come back neg I will stay on this diet for a few months and see what happens. I am glad to see that she now is able to at least hold her trot, unlike before, before giving up or bucking. To me, she is controlling this exercise better even though to you it may look rediculous. Could also be her maturing, idk. I just want to stay on one path for awhile to get a good feel if there is actually improvement with consistency. If months from now, if she hasn't improved, I will go another route.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Yeah, it takes time. Besides, you have one competent voice already. Just keep her updated. She will see the progress, since she doesn't see Snickers every day and knows best as to what to look for;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm tucking this information away, in case I need it in six months.....
http://www.thehorse.com/videos/30364/neuroaxonal-dystrophy-in-quarter-horses


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That is rather scary.....we don't want that....:-(


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I agree....just keeping it real. I really don't feel, at this point, that she doesn't know where her feet are, so I'm saying it's not neurological, for now.

Dr. Valentine did get back to me and say to stick to the diet. It could even take up to a year for the body to change. So, that is what I'm doing. Good news is they are eating fine now that I've eliminated the soaked alfalfa cubes.....(Snickers is still boss mare...lol). It rained here the last two days, so we have mud. I could only ride them both around the ranch at the walk pretty much. A few of us are supposed to take a ride to the beach today. I think I will ride Snickers.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

It rained a little here too;-)

So, basically, the test didn't really help clearing things up. 
If I had Snickers, I'd listen to my gut which tells me to wait the year to see if the diet change does anything. Symptoms are so on the spot with Dr.V's description. 

I've noticed mine refusing alfalfa pellets at times. So I give very little for a while, until they show me they're ready for more again


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> It rained a little here too;-)
> 
> So, basically, the test didn't really help clearing things up.
> If I had Snickers, I'd listen to my gut which tells me to wait the year to see if the diet change does anything. Symptoms are so on the spot with Dr.V's description.
> ...


Just because she tested neg for Type I, doesn't rule out Type II since she is only part draft. The lighter breeds are often Type II...only diagnosed with a muscle biopsy....but not going to do it just yet since the only thing I could do if she was positive would be the diet change anyway.

Hopefully, I will be updating slow positive changes on here with her.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I know it's hard not to look every day, but I would try for taking video of the same activities you already have, once a month only. And compare. Other than that I'd make it a point not to look


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Just saying......I lunged Snickers yesterday, and her trot is smoother, not all clunky. I'm sure to other people she probably still looks pretty goofy, but to me, the one who obssesses over her movement daily, it looks better! I'm hoping it is not an illusion.

I took her on a trail ride the day before....about 2-3 miles total. At one point she spooked at a squeaky tree and ran up the side of a berm with me...about ten feet up. On this berm, it is narrow and nowhere for me to really even jump off without hitting the slope of it. I figured we would end up tumbling down it together, so I took my legs out of the stirrups to prevent her crushing my legs if she fell. She kind of hesitated, as if she was assessing her ability and the predicament she got us into, and slowly went down the side of the berm sideways just fine.

I am happy to say that both of my horses are eating their high fat diet just fine now. I can get half of the fat in them with oil...the other half is a combo of the Omega Horseshine and their TC Senior and Ration Balancer. I'm still waiting for the Cool Cal to come in. I would like to replace some of the Omega if I can since it is so expensive. I'm going to start fine tuning now and hopefully normalizing my routine....yay!

Desert.....I don't know if I can wait a month to video yet......How about a week if I still see the improvement?!!!!!! I'm so excited, but trying not to get ahead of myself.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Let's meet in the middle.....two weeks. I want you to really SEE improvements, real obvious ones.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> I would like to replace some of the Omega if I can since it is so expensive.


This is one of my top 3 overspending feeding petpeeves.  For a small container you are paying over $5/# for the Horseshine. It's nothing more than ground flax with a few goodies mixed in. You should be able to buy 50# bags of whole flax at the feed store (they will order it in if they don't have it) for less than $40. That's $.80/# and you can feed as much as she'll eat. That one bag will last both of them at least one month. Grind a gallon ziplock bag at a time.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Re Omega Horseshine....it used to be 40$....at TSC, bearable, but went up sharply to 48$.
I compared it to their Dumor brand Ultra Shine. 1% more fat, Cah ratio better, more magnesium, copper and manganese. The omega's are pretty much the same, NSC is higher with 8,8%, but still very good. Best is the price....30$....... if you can't find straight flax.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok, we are around a month into the diet and it has been a couple weeks since I did the last video.

I still would say that her gait is slightly smoother. She seems to spring up a little now, rather than slapping those hind feet down. Her transitions don't seem as difficult and the legs getting twisted up seem to not happen as often. No major miracles, but I'll take the slight ones so far!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Transitions are smoother, a little less slapping in trot. Tail is still kinda dangling dead-ish. What is very obvious, her head and neck are more normal, natural, position wise. She held them very low, especially under saddle. 
I see improvement


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Transitions are smoother, a little less slapping in trot. Tail is still kinda dangling dead-ish. What is very obvious, her head and neck are more normal, natural, position wise. She held them very low, especially under saddle.
> I see improvement


and I must say....when I am not trying to hold the camera and she sees her normal cues, she looks even better. She is able to trot with more ease and with more speed and her canter isn't throwing her into a pretzel...lol. She has a little bit of rhythm now. Not perfect, but better.:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Out off-and into canter has improved a lot. Definitely de- pretzeled.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Just a side note....not as good today. Hard for her to canter to the left and trotting was not as smooth.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much. We have off- days, too.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

After a few days of disappointment where Snickers seemed to regress, I was pleasently surprised when I lunged her yesterday. I went into it thinking it would only be a few minutes in the roundpen, like last week when I could have cried. However, I was elated when I worked with her. I would say the best moment was the transition downward from the canter to the trot. Last week she couldn't even canter a few strides. And, cantering to the left for her looked impossible. Yesterday I cantered her and she held it fine. During the downward transition to the trot, I pushed her to hold her trot and she did great. Usually she falls out of it and her feet get all twisted from the canter. So it was a good day for sure.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

There ya go!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

The last two lunging sessions have made me very happy. Snickers continues to have smoother downward transitions in all gaits, not perfect, but so much better than before.

At the canter she now holds it and rarely gets her legs tangled up, bunny hops or turn her butt towards the inside of the circle shaping her body like a coma. When she is at the trot and I ask for the canter, she does sometimes look right at me first and pin her outer ear while having her inner ear on me. Wasn't sure if that meant she was uncomfortable or just arguing. Cantering to the left before was nearly impossible. She does well now, but does sometimes lead with her rt hind and has to switch legs when she finally seems to realize how odd it is to lead with the outside hind leg.

So overall, I am happy. Let me know if any of the above notes mean anything in particular. Can't wait to show the next video soon!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That sounds really really good!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> That sounds really really good!!!


Desert....would her leading with her wrong hind leg at the canter just be a young horse/unbalanced thing? What about her pinning that outside ear when asked to canter? She is going through her 'I can possibly try and be the boss of you for a minute' thing sometimes....sooooo....maybe she is just being a little bratty? I think if it was pain it would be more extreme....idk.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oldhorselady said:


> Desert....would her leading with her wrong hind leg at the canter just be a young horse/unbalanced thing? What about her pinning that outside ear when asked to canter? She is going through her 'I can possibly try and be the boss of you for a minute' thing sometimes....sooooo....maybe she is just being a little bratty? I think if it was pain it would be more extreme....idk.


many young horses have balance problems, she's probably no exception. Then add that she couldn't do it at all. Just watch for progress. 
She could be just bratty, she could be mad at herself, she could still be in the " but I can't" mode.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> many young horses have balance problems, she's probably no exception. Then add that she couldn't do it at all. Just watch for progress.
> She could be just bratty, she could be mad at herself, she could still be in the " but I can't" mode.


It's so funny....I try not to be creepy attached/emotional with them. But, if I could put captions with some of their looks, it would be hilarious. When I ask Snickers to canter, she turns to look at me with both eyes first, but still keeps going forward.....I would say that she is saying, "But Mom, you know when I do that I look like an ***!" Then she actually does it now, and looks decent, and surprises us both I think!....lol.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

The aha moment


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I think Snickers has lost some weight finally too. I'm going to upload video soon. Roundpen work has been steady. Off on her own, she is less controlled, but seems more comfortable with herself anyway.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

looking great! I see some muscling coming on top of the croup....


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

She's coming along great! Must have missed this, did she get an official diagnosis?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

To me she looked very stiff. Maybe her stifle is locking up?
For a very short period of time we had a buckskin pinto horse/pony youngster that had that issue. She'd be walking/trotting around then her stifle would lock up and she couldnt move her leg for a minute. Here's a video of a horse with his stifle locking up
Cowboy's Locking Stifle - YouTube


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Kayella no official diagnosis yet. I've decided to go the muscular route, rather than skeletal route right now. I want to see where we are at in six months with this first.

Nokot I am still not ruling out something else, or even multiple things. I still question the stifle at times. Yesterday was one of those times in the round pen. I could actually see it maybe 'shift' a couple times during the walk after trotting. Not sure though. Plus there is the downhill stuff with her where she knuckles over those back feet. It's almost like she has peg legs and she doesn't bend when the ground isn't flat. She will put at least that right hind leg down straight on hills or uneven ground it seems.

She has improved in the round pen with 'controlling' her body more fluidly anyway...from what it was. So it is hopefully building a little muscle that lacked before. She will probably never be perfect, but I'm so happy to see it becoming a little easier for her.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Nokotaheaven said:


> To me she looked very stiff. Maybe her stifle is locking up?
> For a very short period of time we had a buckskin pinto horse/pony youngster that had that issue. She'd be walking/trotting around then her stifle would lock up and she couldnt move her leg for a minute. Here's a video of a horse with his stifle locking up
> Cowboy's Locking Stifle - YouTube


Nokot I've seen that video before. I've never seen her lock up that like or drag her leg either. I've seen some occassional popping in that joint, I thought, on her hand walks going down hills and when she is at a gallop ini the field and comes to a complete stop when her legs buckle under her. Sometimes it seems like her fetlocks even have the popping action, even though I've never heard of that before.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Having had a horse with locking stifles, I thought she could have that problem. But it's also one if the symptoms of EPSM/PSSM, and if I think about the "mechanics" if LS...the ligament is a tad lose, gets caught on the patella, and developing muscle to pull the ligament tighter helps for LS, it makes total sense that LS is one of the symptoms of EPSM. So in other words building up muscle(through work and appropriate diet), should " cure" the LS symptom.
My horse with LS never locked up while in race training. Never.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Oh okay xP


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here is a video of Snickers from today in the round pen. She is remaining stable. The downward transitions and her ability to hold gaits longer is still improving a little bit at a time. She does still throw her hips/legs out in the downward transition to walk. Even so, I am really happy with her movement improving.

I apologize because it is VERY hard to video while I lunge. She gets confused on what I am asking and I had to keep pausing the video taping.

Next time I am going to lunge on a line in the arena and have someone else video.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now I see her hips going up and down!!!! Remember I said that hip swinging was missing before? 
She still has a way to go, but is MUCH better.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now I see her hips going up and down!!!! Remember I said that hip swinging was missing before?
> She still has a way to go, but is MUCH better.


Really????? Yay!!! You see the more refined things than I do. So, if I see improvement, there really must be some...lol! I'm so glad that someone else can see something. Tears of joy!:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't see her every day. So the changes are much more obvious to me. 
I would now trot trot trot her. Not in circles, rather straight. And forward. That'll help build more muscle, even on both sides. With her new diet she has the fuel for it. Take her in the arena, on a longe, and go with her down along the fenceline. Or ride her, fresh forward. Once she gains strength, she'll canter more easily.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Today I rode Snickers in the arena. I just played passenger and didn't direct her too much as long as she was trotting. She did wonderful! She held onto it without me having to get after her, like before. I used to have to ask over and over every few steps. Mind you, I am riding her differently after having some lessons too, so I'm sure that helps her along. Poor little thing....she has to put up with her abnormal body and then me too! She is such a little trooper. I love this little horse.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I know you do ;-)


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I submitted the video of Snickers rubbing her belly on the ground where it looked like she was dancing to the music in the background, to America's Funniest Home Videos about six months ago. I received a packet Friday from them to sign release forms!!!

One thing I noticed the other day, even with her gaits having some improvement, she does swing her hocks inward quite significantly at least at the trot. She becomes very narrow. Maybe that is why she has that prominant swing outward when she slows to the walk, to balance her wide body once it is not in a faster motion. Maybe that is a deformity?

A little longer and I will get another video.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

My Beau does that too. I believe in his case, its a little lack of strength due to have been borderline thin. Maybe she will improve once she gets her muscles working properly. Im just guessing, so grain of salt lol....besides...we can overlook imperfections in a movie star, can we


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok, good to know that she isn't the only one. We will see if strength improves it in time. Yeah, she's a movie star alright....if she were to win $10,000 the first thing I would do is buy a trailer and take her to UC Davis.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That's right, you still have to test her for the other type. 
Need a sticker on the trailer" my horse earned that"


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here was Snickers today.....trying to be spooked by something. She attended her first 'parade' practice last Sunday. I believe she will be in the Ramona Rodeo Parade on May 18th!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Collecting trash and making recycling money on the way;-)
Good girl!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Collecting trash and making recycling money on the way;-)
> Good girl!


Preeeeeety funny....:lol:

Desert....I think it would be best if I move Snicker's progress to the journal thread perhaps. It is no longer relating, except on occasion, to horse health any longer. I hope you continue to watch her progress. You have been a great support and help. Thanks so much!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You're so welcome
I'll for sure keep following!


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

She looks like a cute little unicorn in that picture, if you look at it just right. 

What a brave horse. 

My horse spooked at a cat today. One of the sweet barn cats that she sees every day.

Or maybe it was that tree that has been there for, oh...100 years or more?? 

Guess I will never know. But she will if it happens to show up again. 

Your horse is great. I can do the occasional hat with mine but that's about it. 

Hope to see your horse on tv soon.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

lightning said:


> She looks like a cute little unicorn in that picture, if you look at it just right.
> 
> What a brave horse.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lightning! I never would have made that observation until you pointed it out...lol. Very sweet.

Keep working with your horse and spooking. May just take a little time. I found out that the more confident I am, the more confident she is.

I hope to see Snickers on TV too!! Keep watching her updates now in a new thread under 'Member Journals' titled 'Snickers-the noodle-legged pinto!


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