# The genetics of blue eyes in a QH?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Your horse has white. Hence your horse has some sort of white pattern which is more then likely what caused her blue eyes. Whether it be splash, frame, or something else.


QH can and _do _have pinto and appaloosa genes. The only gene they don't have is tobiano.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

My vote, with two blue eyes, would be that she carries the Splash gene. 

Paint genes can 'hide' for several generations, she could have a great-grand parent that was a minimal Overo/Splash and it trickled down through the generations.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Your horse has white. Hence your horse has some sort of white pattern which is more then likely what caused her blue eyes. Whether it be splash, frame, or something else.
> 
> 
> QH can and _do _have pinto and appaloosa genes. The only gene they don't have is tobiano.


Not true. A Paint is nothing more then a Quarter Horse with spots they decided they didn't want to register as Quarter Horses all those years ago. So every tobiano Paint has QH ancestory, and even tobiano can hide in a minimal sense. I am not sure how it applies to Appaloosa though, I've never seen a tobiano Appaloosa. To find tobiano ALONE is fairly rare, but my Paint filly has tobiano and both her parents had tobiano and her entire pedigree is QH racing lines so one of them was carrying tobiano to make it down to the Paint genes.

However yes, blue eyes are most definitively associated with splash, and splash can be fairly easy to hide. Another member on here has a black mare with two blue eyes and almost no white - just a leg marking and a face marking. She is most definitely hiding splash.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Macabre you didn't understand my post. Tobiano is they _only_ lingo gene not found in quarter horses. Splash, frame, sabino, LP, etc., are naturally occuring in AQHA horses. Tobiano is not.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Then how do we have Paint horses with tobiano?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tobiano has never been in AQHA horses. Well maybe back when the registry first started there were carriers, but it is not possible today.

Tobiano does not hide like Frame, splash or LP.

APHA was not started because of cropout quarter horses. A tobiano horse will _never_ be eligible for AQHA papers the way that splash or frame APHA horses are (basically cropouts). Tobiano, as far as I know, was and has been around for a very long time and is found in many, many other breeds. It is not found in AQHA horses though. Tobiano may hide on one horse, but you can bet it wont hide for long if the horse reproduces. 

Do you have you horse on allbreed? I would like to see the pedigree if possible.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Technically, any horse with any white facial or leg marking carries a pinto gene. Tobiano alone doesn't put white on the face, so therefore any horse with white on their face carries overo. Overo is the pattern that causes blue eyes, and although it isn't fully understood which type of overo causes it, most people assume it's splash.

Pretty much every breed out there carries overo minimally. The odd Friesian with a small white star proves that even they carry it. If you look you can find pictures of solid horses of almost any breed with blue eyes.


Here are the photos of my mare's ancestors: Clouds Mystique W Missouri Fox Trotter

Nobody looks like a classic splash. Most horses are solid, and the few horses that have body white look sabino. But splash is there somewhere in a lot of those horses, because it gave her her blue eyes... (BTW - excuse the random warmbloods... somebody screwed up)

Tobiano and frame don't typically hide as well as splash and sabino.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

CloudsMystique said:


> Tobiano and frame don't typically hide as well as splash and sabino.


Agree'd. Loki and Red's sire is a Tobiano _Sabino_, possibly even with a dab of Splash (I can't be 100% sure on this, however). He looks almost 100% Tobiano, except his markings are slightly jagged, he has a star and half stripe/snip, and he has a band going around all his markings (caused by Sabino). 

Splash is a little devil of a gene. It hides....hides...hides...then BOOM! Surprise blue eyes or strange markings! Same goes for Sabino, I know of a Sabino colt with nothing more then some light Sabino roaning, I believe a star, and a slightly unusual sock.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

Ok thanks guys! I always wondered how try popped up! 

NdAppy, once again I'm checking hf from my phone and cannot post a direct link to her pedigree but I know it's on allbreedpedigree.com and her name is Playgirls Got Blues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Zeke said:


> Ok thanks guys! I always wondered how try popped up!
> 
> NdAppy, once again I'm checking hf from my phone and cannot post a direct link to her pedigree but I know it's on allbreedpedigree.com and her name is Playgirls Got Blues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whoops should have clarified.  I meant Macabre's mare. 

I looked at your girl's pedigree when you posted this.


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## hflmusicislife (Dec 15, 2010)

CloudsMystique said:


> Technically, any horse with any white facial or leg marking carries a pinto gene.


Were you including Sabino in the pinto category? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that scientists were trying to prove that 100% of facial/leg markings (other than those on a regular ol' pinto, obviously) are caused strictly by the sabino gene. 

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

hflmusicislife said:


> Were you including Sabino in the pinto category? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that scientists were trying to prove that 100% of facial/leg markings (other than those on a regular ol' pinto, obviously) are caused strictly by the sabino gene.
> 
> (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)


Sabino is a type of overo, just like frame and splash.

What you're saying doesn't really make sense to me. Are you saying that a classic frame or splash or tobiano with white on their face or legs is never caused by sabino - but white on the face and legs of solid horses always is?

I think a most facial and leg markings on solid horses are caused by sabino, but I think some are caused by frame and splash as well. Otherwise it would be as common to see frame and splash with no face white as it is to see tobiano with no face white. And I've *never *seen a splash or a frame with a solid face.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Macabre, 
The APHA (American Paint Horse Association) as well as the earlier registries which combined to form APHA were not always closed to just registered QH and TB breeding-- early on, they registered stock type horses with the proper markings-- known pedigrees were not always required. The hardship option which allowed horses with unknown ancestry to be APHA registered did not close until 1986, IIRC.

Now, MOST of the Paint bloodlines trace back to QH.... however there are definitely Paint horses which do not trace 100% to QH/TB ancestry, but which have lines which terminate in unknown ancestry. This would be the case with tobiano Paints-- also some Paints have overo (frame, sabino, etc.) lines which originated from an unregistered horse of unknown breeding.

Here is a very well known old sire whos overo dam traces off into unknown- 

Yellow Mount Paint

Because of this line which terminates in unknown, descendants of Yellow Mount are not able to be dually regstered with AQHA, no matter how much of the rest of their pedigree is QH.

Here is another well known Paint stallion-- a tobiano this time-- the tobinao ancestry behind Soft Music and the overo ancestry behind Dual Image trace off into unknown-- so another Paint whos ancestry is not 100% QH or TB, and whos descendants are not AQHA eligible.

Sacred Indian Paint

Here's another tobiano-- racing sire this time-- the tobiano behind Jody Bar (along with what appears to be an unregistered TB) trace to unknown.

Sky Bug Bingo Paint

Now of course the majority of these tobianos' pedigrees is AQHA, but the tobiano portion is not AQHA. If you research the pedigree of your tobiano filly I bet that her tobiano ancestry trails off to an unknown/unregistered ancestor as well.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Clouds I think the general consensus is that lumping Splash, Frame and Sab together as overo is becoming outdated since each does different things.

As far as white markings, until there is a test that proves it, theories are all we have. There are horses with leg white and face white that look very splashy without looking sabby IYKWIM? Without a test for splash, and with only a test for Sab1, it is impossible to tell if both or neither are creating the face and leg white. Then you have to factor in the theories that support white suppression genes. We can test for frame, so can rule out frame causing leg white, since it tends to leave legs solid on it's own.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

IN MY OPINION....

MOST of the white facial markings on otherwise SOLID horses are caused by Splash and Sabino and _possibly Dominate White_. A good percentage I think are also caused by Overo, but not as commonly as Splash or Sabino. 
_Tobiano_ is also the cause, though quite rarely, of white on the legs but no white on the face. Usually these horses are OBVIOUSLY Tobiano, however. 

In SPOTTED horses, most Overo's aren't really 100% Overo, but Overo + Sabino. IMO, Overo doesn't produce stockings, Sabino does. Overo doesn't produce milk chins. Sabino does. 

I'll find a few examples of what I'm talking about here. I hope this is clear 

*All photos are copyright of their respective owners, and are used here as example/educational purposes only*

*Quarter Horses*
From left to right: Splash, Overo, Sabino









*???*
Overo









*???*
Splash 









*??? - Probably a QH*
Splash









*Draft or Gaited*
Sabino









*???*
Sabino (note also the milk chin)









*Quarter Horse*
100% Overo, he MAY carry Sabino/Splash/Tobiano but he only SHOWS Overo. Note how the white markings are limited to the middle of the horse, do not cross the topline, and his blaze does not extend down past the chin.









*Quarter Horse*
Overo + Sabino. Note the high, unusually shaped stockings (very common of Sabino's, I can bring several examples of this in MINIMALLY marked Sabino's) and the milk chin. He is _mostly_ Overo but Sabino got a little boogey-woogey in there too. 









*My reasoning*
SPLASH - 
In it's minimal form, small or slightly unusual stripes, stars and snips. Blue eyes may or may not be present. In more loud form, the face head is often all white and the markings are semi-crisp. 

OVERO - 
Larger blazes that *do not extend down to the lower lip*. Remember that we are are talking about solid colored horses here. Blue eyes may or may not be present, though probably not horses that are not loudly expressed. 

SABINO - 
Large to medium blazes or bald-faces that extend to the lower lip, aka, milk chin. 

DOMINATE WHITE - 
Very, very tricky. These gene *probably* mimics Sabino. Sabino White and Dominate White are easily confused because they are so alike.
Dominate Whites have pink skin and brown eyes, but some alleles produce a colt that mimics Sabino. 
To quote,
_W5 is found in Thoroughbreds descending from Puchilingui, a 1984 stallion with sabino-like white spotting and roaning.[2] Horses with the W5 allele exhibit a huge range in white phenotype: a few have been pure white or near-white, while others have sabino-like spotting limited to high, irregular stockings and blazes that covered the face. Twenty-two members of this family were studied, and the 12 with some degree of dominant white spotting were found to have a deletion in exon 15_. 

I love genetics  Don't even get me started on the Vienna gene in rabbits, which is VERY interesting. This is obviously just the surface of Overo, Sabino, Splash, and Dominate White. There is much more involved-ESPECIALLY in Splash.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

It's also my opinion that small markings, such as small, crisply marked cornet bands, socks, and stockings are _usually_ caused by Splash. Stockings may also be caused by Tobiano, and jagged/unusual ones by Sabino.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Not true. A Paint is nothing more then a Quarter Horse with spots they decided they didn't want to register as Quarter Horses all those years ago. So every tobiano Paint has QH ancestory, and even tobiano can hide in a minimal sense. I am not sure how it applies to Appaloosa though, *I've never seen a tobiano Appaloosa*. To find tobiano ALONE is fairly rare, but my Paint filly has tobs carrying tobiano to make it down to the Paint genes.


Not AQHA, APHA or ApHc tobiano (minimal showing how it could be missed) and appaloosa in coloring:

My favorite guy who was recently purchased (not by me I wish) from Arrowrock Spanish Mustangs:


























It's relevant because the QH (some lines more than others) at one time had a large dose of Spanish blood which gave tobiano, app, splash, frame, DW and sabino coloring


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

There WAS a Tobiano Appaloosa living across the street from me. He 'grayed' off to the point where only his black butt spots showed. He started out as a Tobiano with a dash of Splash, I believe, with spots. Then his Tobiano slowly vanished over time


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

AGH! I hate grey it is a color killer


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

wakiya said:


> AGH! I hate grey it is a color killer


I have no idea why his Tobiano markings vanished and his Appaloosa ones stayed. Happened over a couple months too, thought about buying him until I talked with the owner. $500 for a horse that's wild as a mustang and you can't catch, no papers either. 

They got him broke though, still a cute gelding.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TG if he is an Appy it was probably his roaning spreading rather than him greying IYKWIM?


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## hflmusicislife (Dec 15, 2010)

CloudsMystique said:


> Sabino is a type of overo, just like frame and splash.
> 
> What you're saying doesn't really make sense to me. Are you saying that a classic frame or splash or tobiano with white on their face or legs is never caused by sabino - but white on the face and legs of solid horses always is?
> 
> I think a most facial and leg markings on solid horses are caused by sabino, but I think some are caused by frame and splash as well. Otherwise it would be as common to see frame and splash with no face white as it is to see tobiano with no face white. And I've *never *seen a splash or a frame with a solid face.


Sorry, I had a feeling that wasn't going to make sense... 
I really love genetics, and I read somewhere that they think sabino causes the white facial & leg markings on otherwise solid horses. That's a very good point though, I hadn't thought of that. 

I'll have to try to find the website I was talking about, because I'm sure I'm doing a horrible job trying to explain what I mean. :?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

There are a couple of Tobiano/Appy horses on this board. 

One is Golden Horse's Mr. G - Mr Appy Gilmore the various P.I.T.A. loosa

Another is Indyhorse's Claymore - Claymore the erm, lots of them Draft Cross

Tobiano is not an accepted pattern for Appaloosas anymore then it is for quarter horses. 

On thing about Tobiano and LP... Appaloosa spots will _only_ show on the colored areas. Anything whited out by the tobiano pattern stays white. LP can not and will not put spots on a white area caused by tobiano.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

This has all been very intresting. Now i want to add a question, because oveusly we have people who know genitics. What about the cemilos and champains? They have blue eyes.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

TwoGeldings - Frame Overo works by manipulating other pattern genes. If it doesn't have another pattern gene to work with, it will only be minimally expressed. That horse you posted with the solid legs & the loud Frame pattern is most certainly carrying Sabino as well (the loud white facial marking that is avoiding the eyes is a big giveaway).

raywonk - creme & champagne are both dilution genes. Horses carrying 2 copies of the creme gene (cremellos, perlinos, & smoky cremes) will have light coloured eyes. Horses carrying only 1 copy of the creme gene (palominos, buckskins, & smoky blacks) will have normal coloured eyes. Champagne horses only need 1 copy of the champagne gene in order to get the lightened eye-colour.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

raywonk said:


> This has all been very intresting. Now i want to add a question, because oveusly we have people who know genitics. What about the cemilos and champains? They have blue eyes.


Blue eyes are because of the Cream dilute gene, they have no relation to the spotting genes which carry and cause blue eyes. In order for a solid horse to have cream-caused eyes, it would have to be double cream. 

Cream horses with blue eyes (some have hazel or even green eyes) have a _much_ lighter shade of blue compared to a blue eye caused by Overo or Splash.


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## hflmusicislife (Dec 15, 2010)

twogeldings said:


> Blue eyes are because of the Cream dilute gene, they have no relation to the spotting genes which carry and cause blue eyes. In order for a solid horse to have cream-caused eyes, it would have to be double cream.
> 
> Cream horses with blue eyes (some have hazel or even green eyes) have a _much_ lighter shade of blue compared to a blue eye caused by Overo or Splash.


Just thought I'd add this in. 
CPEA Cremellos and Perlinos Explained
There's info there about the difference between Cream blue eyes and pinto-type blue eyes.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I've seen frames w/ solid faces, actually with completely solid bodies, only sign of anything is a blue eye or two.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup, it is actually becoming more apparent as more people test that white patterns are often minimal and you don't see them. I have seen pics of a solid filly, completely solid, not a speck of white on her, who tested homozygous for tobiano.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> Yup, it is actually becoming more apparent as more people test that white patterns are often minimal and you don't see them. I have seen pics of a solid filly, completely solid, not a speck of white on her, who tested homozygous for tobiano.


That's the first I've heard, very cool.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I want to test my mare to see if she carries frame or sabino. Her dam is an overo, but since her sire was a QH, she ended up solid with a pastern and wide blaze the extends down to her chin.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Poseidon, if you test your mare for SB1 she could very well be carrying another form of Sabino. There are more out there, there just happens to be the only test available at this time. 

Frame wouldn't be bad to test for. Always good to know if you ever plan on breeding her.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Poseidon, if you test your mare for SB1 she could very well be carrying another form of Sabino. There are more out there, there just happens to be the only test available at this time.
> 
> Frame wouldn't be bad to test for. Always good to know if you ever plan on breeding her.


That's the main reason I would test for frame. I can't see myself breeding her in the near future, but it would be nice to know if the occasion ever arises.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Do you happen to have any pictures of her dam?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

This is the best picture full body picture I can find.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Oh yeah, totally frame! lol I was curious if she was frame or splash you know?


And sorry to all for taking this so far off topic!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I also apologize for hijacking this thread! Sorry!


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Looks like Frame Overo x Sabino. As I said before, Frame Overo is literally the 'frame' of the horse, or the inside of it. Sabino causes the white chins and unusual leg markings.


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