# uh, cow kicking?



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

My 5 y/o mare has started cow kicking recently. this is a very new thing for her, and she ONLY does it in her stall while grooming. I can tack her up, put on her blankets, feed - basically anything else in her stall and she will not kick. She only ever does it in her stall, grooming. I have even brushed her off in the arena and zero kicks. She gets her blanket on/off every night - no kicks. tacking up? no kicks.
when she does kick it's not even that eccentric (it's actually better than it was when it started 3 weeks ago). When she kicks it's really just a no effort cow kick that's slowly diminishing into lifting her leg so slightly. but it's still a cow kick, and still needs to stop! I can't have her doing this, it's just not acceptable at all. Every time I catch her going to do it I give her a pretty legit smack on the belly and throw in a "HEY!". 
Obviously there's a reason she started doing this, I just do not know what it is. She is currently in training (ground training) and doing SO much better all around in every aspect so like I said, the kicking has diminished significantly but still needs to STOP. what else can I do? 

(keep in mind I have never had a horse kick at me like this, and so consistently. the most I have ever had a horse do is me standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and she kicked at a mosquito, otherwise I have never ever dealt with a horse who cow kicks ...and one who only does it in her stall for grooming only.)

help???


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> Obviously there's a reason she started doing this, I just do not know what it is.


The first time you were bothering her and she though she would treat you like another horse that was bothering her. Now, the only reason she needs is that you did not try to kill her the first time it happened. She would have thought it was a very bad idea and that would have been the end of the story.

She took up a position higher than you on her 'pecking order' and you have not made it plain that you will not tolerate the tiniest bit of aggression. Your first response should have been so severe that she never, ever even thought about doing it again let alone did it.


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Doesn't really matter much what the reason is, she needs to be taught, in no uncertain terms, kicking at a human is not acceptable under any circumstances, period. Correction needs to be immediate & consistent, but I think you already know that.


----------



## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Your first response should have been so severe that she never, ever even thought about doing it again let alone did it.


This has proven very effective, take it from the owner of the formerly known cow kicking queen!


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Yup-Totally right again Cherie! OP-you may think you are giving her substantial smacks, but obviously you need to step it up. She needs to think-just for a couple brief moments-that she is going to die. You need to be the biggest bad a$$ you can possibly be. Nothing you can do will be nearly as bad as an alpha mare if she pulled that on them!


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

My mare picked up the habit of cowkicking when she got ulcers last December. She would do threaten it whenever I annoyed her for a while after she had been treated. Every time she did it, she got a good hard smack (if not just punched if she tried it repeatedly) on the neck and me shouting at her to knock it off or to put her foot down. 

It took a few times for her to figure out she ought not do that. She's only threatened it once or twice since then and all I have to do is say, "Put your foot back down" in a low voice and she's back on all 4 hooves, albeit I receive pretty dirty looks from her. :lol:


----------



## highlonesome (Nov 3, 2011)

Bad habit to let go.SHE is ascerting her authority when she does it.If let be,she would continue until she did it when you're tacking up or...?A nasty surprise to say the least and just bad manners in a horse you love,right?


----------



## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Ditto what the others said.
Our filly kicked out at me a few weeks ago. She didn't realize it was me behind her. I know this because as soon as she saw me, the kick changed momentum & didn't hit target.
It was kind of funny, because you could tell that she knew she had done something wrong.
Needless to say, I still smacked her and got after her hard. Even though it was an accident, I don't want her to forget that when I'm around she needs to watch me, and that I'm the one in charge.


----------



## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

Disrespect at its finest. 

When she kicks, kick her back. Either a hard toe to the leg she kicked you with or a hard toe to her belly. Either way she needs to know its the end of the world if she _attempts_ to kick. Make a huge deal out of, and ignore all the looks you might get from passerbyers ;D


----------



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sounds like this mare needs a 'come to jesus' session!!
Just a subtle lift of a back leg may seem harmless enough... but once she realises you're not going to kill her for it, it'll turn into a more threatening and eventually dangerous behaviour. Cow kicking is nasty business, my coach had her femur snapped clean in horse by a young but very big warmblood cowkicking when she did up his girth. 

You don't have to be violent, taking a steel rod and beating her to get the message across. Instead, just make yourself bigger, hands in the air waving towards her and run straight her yelling. Make her think you are about to kill her if she doesn't get out of your way. Smacking does nothing unless the horse moves away. I see so many people smacking their horse for pinning its ears or lifting a leg, but the horse doesn't move away, thus the smack was just a waste of energy. If a horse wants to try and dominate you, you must move it out of your space pronto!


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A mare here took to cow kicking when being saddled. I took my lunge whip and rubbed it up and down her leg, just letting her know, When the saddling began I just tickled her leg with the tip. She kept her hoof on the ground. That routine was repeated for about a week but she never did lift a hoof during saddling after that.


----------



## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

not to sound mean.. .but the OP sounds like she nows her horse is disrespecting her... you guys don't need to remind her of it. 

and i love all the suggestions about making her feel like death is upon her (that is meant as a serious remark, not sarcastic.) the mare needs to learn but the OP is asking you guys what she needs to do to make the horse feel that way. only 2 posts gave her ideas on how to get the job done. only reason i am asking is because i would like to know in case i ever have to deal with it. 
what does the horse realize as death. just being run at and having moving hands cooming at her - like one suggested or do we need to get a boot to a belly for a kick or should she have a crop in her hands and every time she picks up a hoof to do a cowkick she gets a wack in the hind, a push from the side to move away... what are the techniques(sp) you guys use??? 

sorry if i sound mean not trying to :/ just want to learn...


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I prefer to start with the lightest touch that might work. The mare may consider the stall her space and wants to be left alone. Regardless, the behaviour is unacceptable. The reason why doesn't really matter.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

In a situation like this, you often do just the first thing that comes to mind with whatever is available. The key is to react INSTANTLY, briefly and HUGE. Loud noise, quick action, whether it be boot to the belly (which is frankly what I have done, since I always have that, and it is about as quick as I can get. With any horse I do not trust 100%, or one like this one that has proven to be bad at times, I would never touch the horse without first having a rope halter and lead on them. That way, you can grab the lead, kick them and MAKE THEM MOVE (After the kick I would start swinging the end of the lead at that hindquarters and make them yield it-all while screaming)......but that is just how I would deal. Then after a few seconds, it all ends, and go back to what you were doing, like nothing happened. If they decide it is a good idea again-Same thing, but now I would probably smack the hindquarters with the lead. After that-I would have a whip or crop in the stall with me. Doubt it would be needed.

I DO NOT subscribe to being gentle, like Saddlebag does. If you try that, the horse, much like the OP's, may not take the hint, and the second time may just be your last.


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You could try Saddlebag's suggestion, if you really want to. But if I did the tickling with a lunge whip to my horse, I would be turning a cowkick threat (hoof up by belly) to an actual kick. She would be entirely annoyed by it. I was taught that if a horse disrespects you by doing something like this, you make them regret even thinking about it. 

To discipline Abby's cowkicking, the first thing I thought of when she did was to smack her a good one and yell. She knows better and is well aware that if she does something disrespectful, she's going to get smacked. She's a dominant horse and when she's around a new person, she tends to test what she can get away with. That's usually the first thing I tell someone: smack her if she's being rude. My BOs and the main employee at my barn have full permission to smack her. Back when Abby had a gelding in with her, they would get really aggressive at meal times. She behaved around me because she knew better, but when the employee would come out, she didn't respect him nearly as much...and she got punched for it one day. She smartened up real quick.


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

My TBx did this.

However, I have to question that if she is only doing this when you tack her up, does her saddle fit and is she happy in her back? Get this checked out first, she may be trying to tell you its pinching, or she's sore.

HOWEVER, if she doesn't have any saddle issues, I would do one of two options. If her stall is big enough, ask a friend to help. Which ever side she cow kicks on, pick up the front leg and tie a lead rope on to it firmly so it doesn't slip and give her rope burn. Hang on.
You or the friend puts the saddle on, and if she does attempt to cow kick, she'll either unbalance herself, or fall, and hopefully won't do it again. This stopped my mares asap. Only took one time.

If not, and again, your stable is big enough to give you room to get out, when she does it, I would give her a good hard smack with a whip on her rump. Smacking with your hand is futile, a horse doesn't think of this as reprimand, its a playful nudge or bump. You don't have to be whip happy, but you have to make it hard enough for her to realise that it is unexceptable.

Good luck!


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have watched many, many herds of horses reinforce their pecking order and you know what? I have never seen a lead mare 'tap' or 'swat' another horse that has kicked at her. That lead horse would dive at the insubordinate herd member and take hunks of flesh and skin or would whirl around and kick the underling 2 or 3 times and then dive at it. They would make sure that this horse NEVER tried it again.

What I tell people when they ask me "How hard should I punish my horse for x,y, or z?" I usually tell them that it has to be rough enough to stop the behavior. If you have to discipline a horse more than once, you did not do it right the first time. I usually cut people some slack and tell them that a second reprimand needs to end the behavior for good. If the horse tries the behavior after a second reprimand, you have only 'pecked' on the horse and may have made it a lot worse by teaching it that they can do as they want without showing any respect. At best, you have not figured out how to interact with a horse effectively. At worst, your horse is probably learning little else from you and may get much more aggressive and dangerous. 

Horses 'cow-kicking' break a lot of legs and have ended many riding careers. My first dressage instructor was a great rider and instructor from Poland named Jan Schmigarro. His career ended when he was cow-kicked while blanketing a show mare in her stall.

The kind of punishment to use can be anything from two or three good swats with the end of a lead-rope or a dressage whip, can be 3 or 4 hard jerks on a lead-rope that is attached to a halter, can be a hard jerk followed by backing the horse up aggressively for 10 or 12 quick steps. I never swat a horse just once for serious aggressive move. I make sure they know that they should NEVER try it again. 

If you hit a horse with a rope or a whip, after the dust has settled, go back and swing a rope or whip around the horse and lightly swing the lead-rope at the same place you hit or rub the place with the whip and tap it lightly. Yow will sensitize a horse when you hit it or jerk it. Then, when it is behaving, you go back and desensitize it to the moves and tools you used to discipline it. This way, you will not teach it to fear a big arm movement or a rope or ???? They will associate the reprimand with the crime and not the person or the tool.


----------



## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

It really depends on the situation, but like Frank said you have to react instantly and assertively.
When my girl kicked out, I had the muck rake in my hand and it was feeding time.
Out of instinct, I hit her once with the end of the rake on the rump (not the best solution but its what I had). I then made a ruckus waving my arms and yelling until she moved. I kept her moving where I wanted her, which was separate from the herd and away from the food. Once she stopped pacing and trying to get around me and was standing watching me, I let her buddy up & go back to the herd & eat.


----------



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

kait18 said:


> not to sound mean.. .but the OP sounds like she nows her horse is disrespecting her... you guys don't need to remind her of it.
> 
> and i love all the suggestions about making her feel like death is upon her (that is meant as a serious remark, not sarcastic.) the mare needs to learn but the OP is asking you guys what she needs to do to make the horse feel that way. only 2 posts gave her ideas on how to get the job done. only reason i am asking is because i would like to know in case i ever have to deal with it.
> what does the horse realize as death. just being run at and having moving hands cooming at her - like one suggested or do we need to get a boot to a belly for a kick or should she have a crop in her hands and every time she picks up a hoof to do a cowkick she gets a wack in the hind, a push from the side to move away... what are the techniques(sp) you guys use???
> ...


Thank you!

(just so we're all clear, I have not read any posts past this as of yet, only what was above this, I will read the rest as soon as I make this post lol)

you're right, I definitely know my horse is being disrespectful. otherwise I wouldn't even try to stop her. I would have let it happen in the first place. I definitely made it known (or did what I have always been told is what you do when a horse kicks) the very first time she pulled this on me. I certainly didn't (and never have) just let her kick and not do anything about it. I do what I have always been told is what you do in this situation. Obviously it's not working as well as it should (and by that I mean she doesn't do it nearly as often or as harshly, she only lifts her leg now, so I must be doing something right). I only wanted suggestions on how to stop this completely. I wouldn't have posted this thread otherwise, because I certainly was not making a post asking "my mare is cow kicking, is that bad, should I ask her to stop!??" lol:lol:

this reply isn't meant to be rude in any way, I only want to point out that YES I know it's bad of course. I wouldn't be trying everything I know to stop it otherwise. this topic would have a different title if I didn't know it was bad


----------



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I wanted to edit my previous post but couldn't figure out how:lol:

anyway, I just finished reading over the replies. I would just like to add again that this is not a tacking up issue. this is ONLY when being groomed, and ONLY in her stall. I can groom her fine anywhere else (crossties, indoor arena, isle way, whatever) and she will not kick. I can put her blanket on just fine without kicks, and tack up without any kicks or lifts of the leg. It is only when being groomed in her stall.

I would not consider her a horse that behaves badly otherwise. She stands,, lifts her feet, backs up when asked, doesn't walk all over you (and by this I mean I don't worry about her walking into me, not caring that I am there, etc etc. When I very first purchased her there were kinks to be worked out - she needed to learn to stand, which she now does no problem. That was just one issue she had, but I know plenty of young horses that have things to learn. She now does this no problem. I do not have problems with her otherwise.

Of course I know it's dangerous/disrespectful for her to be cow kicking. Would I yell at her/smack her/back her up if I thought it was okay for her to do? no, lol. 

My op was only asking for suggestions on another way I could stop this before it starts getting bad again. And like I said it is MUCH better than it was when it originally started. When it started I did the only thing I knew to do when a horse kicks at me - smack it hard and yell. I've never once had a horse repeatedly cow kick. Obviously if I had known in the first place that my yelling and smacking and backing up wasn't going to do the trick I would have tried a different approach. Of course I don't want her kicking and me or anybody else. I completely realize how dangerous it is. This is why I posted asking for a better solution. I am also a little baffled as to why a mare would only kick during grooming time, and only in her stall. So yes, I was also looking for opinions on why that may be.

Anyway, this was much longer than I had wanted. I don't mean this to be a rude post in any way, I would only like to clear up the fact that I am not incompetent (jk) Really though, if I didn't know it was bad - like I posted previously - I wouldn't have tried the only thing I knew in the first place, and I would have posted the op differently. & by that I mean I would have said something along the lines of "yo is cow kicking bad!?" hehe.


----------



## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I do agree that it is unacceptable behavior. It should be dealt with. However, we should be also addressing why she does it. 

Is it disrespect? I don't think so because she would do it out of the stall. There would be other signs as well, such as being pushy.

Is it from pain? Again, no. She would also do that out of the stall. 

Is she doing just to do it? Nope. Horses don't do things out of spite. Everything they do has a reason.

So why does she do it? What is she trying to tell you? She can't vocally tell you that she doesn't like something so she has to do it with actions. What is it she doesn't like? Grooming? She does it fine out of the stall. So it all comes back to the stall. 

In my opinion, their stall is their place like we have our homes. Would we allow someone to come into our homes and make us uncomfortable? Heck no! Even if you can tack her up or put her blanket on in the stall, grooming takes more time. She may tolerate letting you tack her and blanket because that only makes her uncomfortable for a short time. Where grooming makes her uncomfortable for longer. How big is her stall? Horses are claustrophobic. She may feel trapped with you in there with her. Personally, when they are in their stall, I feel that is their time/ place and try to not bother them at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

If it's just in her stall then she has learnt that the stable is her place and she doesn't want you bothering her in it. Tough. You're the boss/owner/chief of that horse and she should know it. " don't bite the hand that feeds" springs to mind. She's a horse, she doesn't get to have personal space, so she needs to learn this as she had elsewhere. Take in to account what people have told you, she needs a lesson in respect, and a smack with your band isn't doing the trick, I'd take the advice and use it well. A cow kick today, tomorrow cornered in a box with teeth bared, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

usandpets - that makes a lot of sense, the fact that grooming is a longer process than simply putting her blanket on and her stall is her space.

I know that with my pony, I would (and still do) spend time with her in her stall, not necessarily doing anything, just hanging out. And I know for her at least it worked. She's never bossy in her stall. I don't spend a ton of time in my mare's stall (the one who is cow kicking). I should probably start doing that? From what I gather she needs to learn that when I am in her stall I am not there to make her feel uncomfortable.

thanks for the reply =)


----------

