# what do you think now?



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I got some better and collected pictures of my horse, Sonny. No videos, sadly, due to there was another lady in the arena with us and I don't think she'd appreciate us getting her on film.
These pictures are mainly to see what you guys think of him when he is collected. There will be a few of him without collection, and others with it.

Please note that my friend is the one riding him, not me. We tried getting some of me doing it, but all the pictures where blurry :x 














































I did realize that he does over reach occasionally while trotting, so that is more than likely the reason he isn't reaching really far anymore. I am going to keep bell boots on him when I work him, for both riding and lunging. And hopefully, if the over reaching is the culprit (sp?) then it should help in possibly a week to a months time. If it still continues to happen when I think it should go away, I'll have a different vet (a different one than the one I used for Sonny's pre-purchase) and have him inspect his legs and do flexation tests on him again.

I guess there was really only two pictures where he's collected, and none where very good...but I'm sure you guys should be able to see a different and such.

And one cute picture for the fun of it









Thanks everyone in advance!


----------



## arastangrider (Jan 5, 2008)

he seams like hes getting kinda bunches up you need to teach him to go long and low to come into the bit right now his head is colllected but his back isnt rounded


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

arastangrider said:


> he seams like hes getting kinda bunches up you need to teach him to go long and low to come into the bit right now his head is colllected but his back isnt rounded


 :? ?? How do I do that?


----------



## arastangrider (Jan 5, 2008)

Hope these help 


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070611193948AAE6nqc

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/how-to-porperly-do-long-low-work-178826.html


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm getting it a little bit, but not entirely understanding it. I'll talk to my trainer also and see what pointers she can give me. All the horses that are collected (whether professional dressage horses or random lesson horses) they are "hallowed" on the back.

Do you want them not to be hallow? I've always understood that as long as the head is flexed at the right angle that they are engaging their hindquarters, in which case, making them collected


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

This has nothing to do what you guys are talking about, this is just what i see. Your horse is working off its forehand way too much. He is too bunched up, behind the vertical.


----------



## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

Your horse moves off his forehand, it seems as if he wants to go faster than your friend is allowing him. I think next time you take pictures you need to have your friend take pictures of you riding him. His strides seem to be more elongated but not much.


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> This has nothing to do what you guys are talking about, this is just what i see. Your horse is working off its forehand way too much. He is too bunched up, behind the vertical.


behind the vertical? my trainer was there that day for a while, and said that he looked good.
He still is unsure of what he's supposed to do while he's collected.
He was fully trained as a western/trail horse...he's used to having his head, and doing really whatever he wants with his body. 
So I'm retraining him in English, it's going slowly, but he has made great progress from how he used to be.

He does still move off the forehand, but we are working on that...just taking it slow for both our sakes.



Harless rides horses said:


> Your horse moves off his forehand, it seems as if he wants to go faster than your friend is allowing him. I think next time you take pictures you need to have your friend take pictures of you riding him. His strides seem to be more elongated but not much.


My friend was letting him go at the spead he wanted, but just asked for collection. Occasionally she'd make him go faster than he'd originally go, or slower...but I can't remember at which time I took the photos at.

I will have some pictures of me riding him...like I said (at least I think I said) I did have pictures of me taken on him, but they were really blurry so I deleted them from my computer.

I want his strides elongated, right?


----------



## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

No offense... but you do know that collection isn't just a horse's head being on the vertical... right? You can't really 'just work on collection' and not on impulsion, or speed.


----------



## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

okay...I am wondering if your trainer is clear on all of the elements of collection? I am not the best to explain it...I can feel it, see it, and slightly describe it, but there are others on here who might be able to give you a very clear explanation. 

One of the things that I have learned is that when starting out in working toward collection...getting the head on vertical is NOT the major focus. 

You really have to get the horse moving with steady/balanced impulsion (impulsion being basically focused and controlled drive, not just all out speed). Your horse should be driving from behind, his back should be slightly rounded, he should feel light and very maneuverable on the forehand, you should feel like you are riding just ever so slightly uphill. 

Your horse does have to learn to be soft and supple on the bit to achieve this. One way to get his body into a collected frame is to (once he is soft on the bit) keep a light contact, or ride doing half halts, and while doing so use your legs and seat to drive his body forward. Imagine that you have faced him into a wall and then someone takes his bum and pushes the back legs/hips forward into a powerful position while shortening the overall length of the horse just a bit (varies depending on what you are doing). This would cause his back to round, and his front to become lighter. the front feet being lighter will help him be able to more quickly and accurately perform various maneuvers. Depending on your horse, your legs may have to work very hard to achieve the drive needed to create this... my horse has very low natural impulsion, so I am constantly driving with my seat and legs when I want performance with effort. 

when you have the body, you can then worry about finishing off the head. That is not to say that your horse should not take a steady soft contact willingly. You need him to accept your contact in order to drive his back end into it. Otherwise you will have a horse with a bent head whose body is sort of just running through the bit when drive is added. In the pictures, that is more of what appears to be going on. 

sorry to sound like a broken record, but the serpentines video exercise I posted is great for softening to bit and for the horse learning balance, rhythm, and self carriage. When you put all of those together, you basically have a horse that is collected. http://www.horseforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7552

I learned it for the purposes of reining, but the premise behind it will carry over to any discipline. It is a John/Josh Lyons method that was taught to me, that I am just a big fan of.

Other good activities for working on collection are half halts, spirals, and circles (done correctly). Also, I think that hills and low jumps can be helpful because they strengthen the hind and give the horse and rider the feel for the horse working off the hind. 

Keep working at him - he will be fabulous at it in no time.  I knew of and wanted to achieve collection for a long time, but really could not put my finger on what it was until I was all of a sudden working my horse collected, when all of the pieces just sort of fit together. When I am not really working at it, my horse feels like his front feet are full of bricks during his stops, turns, and gaits. When I get everything working together though, it feels great. 

I hope my novel was helpful in some way for you.


----------



## Delregans Way (Sep 11, 2007)

> No offense... but you do know that collection isn't just a horse's head being on the vertical... right? You can't really 'just work on collection' and not on impulsion, or speed.


True...



> This has nothing to do what you guys are talking about, this is just what i see. Your horse is working off its forehand way too much. He is too bunched up, behind the vertical.


I see that too... very heavy on the forehand.



> okay...I am wondering if your trainer is clear on all of the elements of collection? I am not the best to explain it...I can feel it, see it, and slightly describe it, but there are others on here who might be able to give you a very clear explanation.
> 
> One of the things that I have learned is that when starting out in working toward collection...getting the head on vertical is NOT the major focus.
> 
> ...


Very good... i enjoyed reading your novel lol :lol: Hope you understand this Sonny Wimps.


----------



## arastangrider (Jan 5, 2008)

anotherthing is that your friend is trying to get your horse to lower her head by holding her hands down low that is an old misconception that in order to get a horses head down your hands must be down.


----------



## MysticRealm (Feb 28, 2008)

I am guessing that your horse isn't actually over reaching (hind end to front heel) but is rather Forging (hind end to middle of front foot) This is probably caused by his on the forehand way of going. Bell boots wont help as obviously they protect the sides/back of the foot not the bottom of the foot. Getting him up off his forehand will help. My horse used to forge but now that we have him more up off his forehand he never does it.


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

MysticRealm said:


> I am guessing that your horse isn't actually over reaching (hind end to front heel) but is rather Forging (hind end to middle of front foot) This is probably caused by his on the forehand way of going. Bell boots wont help as obviously they protect the sides/back of the foot not the bottom of the foot. Getting him up off his forehand will help. My horse used to forge but now that we have him more up off his forehand he never does it.


no don't think it's that because he does it even at a walk when I'm off of him and no one is riding him. He definately oversteps most of the time (though sometimes he doesn't)


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I find alot of over stepping has to do with the horse doesn't know where its own feet are, which is a common problem. Too many people are wrapped up in stride, movement, collection and other things that they forget that without the mind being there, they will have nothing. Some people try to fix horses movement but never can, sometimes its confirmation and natural build, other times it the fact that the horse doesn't know where its feet are.

In your case i find that the horse is too ahead of its self and is forgetting where its feet are. You need the horse to think about where its feet are going and know its own limits as far as reaching goes. Ground poles ground poles gound poles, riding and lunging over ground poles. Also move your horse at a dead crawl walk. So slow that you can feel each shoulder lift then drop. Its boring, but it makes the horse focus on its own movement. Ground poles foces the horse to re-direct its mind to its feet and place it in the proper areas so not to step on the poles. The more you do this, the better it will get. Its almost like you horse is focusing so much on you and what you want that it forgets about its feet.

Remember, you have to have the mind moving in the right way before its feet will. 

I said that the horse is moving ahead of its self, meaning its thinking too far head, it goes along with forgetting its feet. Its just moving, not thinking about how or where its moving, it just is. I find the best horses are the ones that think in the moment, the ones that understand their own limits and boundries as far as moving. Of course you can make a horse over reach. Which i think your doing, because you are striving for reach correct? You want your horse to move out and push forward his feet. Your going about it the wrong way i think. Many people who swich from western to english do this. Your horse is already geared to go slow, to move in short motions, because in western thats what they want, a slow horse. Now your teaching the opposite, to move out. Your drilling that so hard into your horse and its over exaggerating its movement. Ground poles will help that. I would lunge for about 15-20min over ground poles before i ride, if i was you. Then after a week of that i would lunge for about 5min over ground poles then ride over and over again over ground poles. Don't hold the horse's head when going over them. Always let the horse have its head. Alot of walking and trotting over ground poles will do you some good.


Thats just my opinion on the matter. I know some people would disagree. But i know thats what works for me.

If your trainer thinks your horse is collected and looks fine. Depending on what you want, i'd say you need a new trainer :wink:


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

If he doesn't actually over-step, please explain why he hits himself even when I lunge him...or when we are walking around the arena (with me on the ground) or in his pasture.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

It could possibly be a confirmation flaw. Mine stopped hitting himself when i introduced ground poles.


----------



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> It could possibly be a confirmation flaw. Mine stopped hitting himself when i introduced ground poles.


if anything I think it is a conformation flaw. I will try setting up ground poles to see if that will help.
How far away should I have them for a walk? Trot? and Canter?


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Really i never measure. I just eye ball it. I set them up for that i think would be good then i work my horse over them, if i think they need adjusting i move them. I wouldnt' work the horse cantering over them just yet. a month or so over poles walking and trotting then canter. I wouldn't do it right away.


----------



## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

Moves off forehand. I would try some ground poles.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Harlee rides horses said:


> Moves off forehand. I would try some ground poles.


Apparently someone didn't read all the posts :wink:


----------



## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

I never really do.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Ha ha neither do i :lol:


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

http://www.horseforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7741&highlight=

heres a link to a thread i did about distances for jumps, poles etc 

he is still either behind or in front of the vertical. but it seems as though thats been pretty well covered already. 

how come your friend rides him so much? i mean no offence but at this stage of your riding i think it would be best if you did the most of the work with him as you and your friend are probably different when it comes to riding and its often a good idea to kinda be the only one riding your horse. it would also be good to see some pics of you on him. if your trainer said he looked good then maybe he did while YOU were on him but then your friend gets on and maybe he isnt as responsive to her???


----------



## arastangrider (Jan 5, 2008)

my horse did that when i first put shoes on him can you get pics of her hooves that also could be the reason


----------



## Roo B Tuesday (Apr 3, 2008)

first things first looking at your horse he is in no way collected and he could not physically collect anyways at the moment. being on the bit and round is entirely different than collection. collection is an advanced dressage movement that can only be achieved once a horse is on the bit, has rhythm, straightness, impulsion, connection and schwung. a horse on the bit is responding to all of your aids and being ridden from back to front. their inside hind leg will be engaged and they will be pushing from the backend up through their back, withers and neck into the bit. being on the bit has to do with rounding the back and engaging the hindend and the arch of the neck and head is just a side effect. a horse can have its neck arched and be off the bit.
a horse should always be on the bit, its the most basic thing any rider should learn once they have accomplished an independant seat. your horse must accept all aids and move off of them quickly and effectively. a horse who is extending is still on the bit therefore making it different than collection.
what i see from your horse is a rider who is pulling her hands downward with the common misconception that lower hands will equal a lower nose which will make them 'frame'. she is riding him from front to back instead of back to front. when riding him she should lift her hands and open her shoulders, chest and hip angle. wrapping her legs around the horse she will ask it to track up and bend laterally. lateral flexion leads to longitudinal flexion (the topline and poll). ask for bend as the inside hindleg is in the suspension stage and ask the horse to loosen throughout the entire ribcage.
ride with a quiet and consistant hand and a soft 'breathing' leg. and you will have to learn to ride every single step and constantly be adjusting the pace, rhythm, flexion and straightness of the horse. you want to maintain it and its hard work. there should be a straight line from bit to mouth but if it can be broken in any direction it would be up and not down. you never want to drop or widen your hands because this forces your horse to crunch up his topline instead of stretching it.
if any of this confuses you feel free to ask me to explain certain concepts. i hope i helped a bit.


----------

