# Brutal Honesty Accepted Here



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I Cantered Cinny for the first time yesterday, it felt like a train wreck ha ha. I thought he was trying to get his head to buck, but looking at the video I think he just wanted his head. Overall it was very very vertical and he felt like he was crow hopping more than cantering....watching the vid I now see he wasn't.

Remember, Cinny is a Green Reclaim. In this vid I am riding him with an indian knotted hackamore and it's what he does best in. Once we get comfortable under saddle and working well, we will work on bitting. 

Oh, and I was also trying out a used saddle I might buy so at the walk I am talking to my fiance' (videotaping) about the saddle.

My own critiques....

1) I need to loose um....50 pounds

2) I need a HELMET on

3) I need to relax and give him his head

4) I Lean a bit too forward at the posting trot

5) I need to relax more at the canter and give him his head and stop being a scared baby ha ha.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Oh, and sorry vid bad....Rob accidentally put it on low res!


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm no good at critiques, especially of riders, but Cinny seems VERY uncomfortable in that vid, I think you really want to have someone who knows what they are doing check out your saddle - to my his body language is saying it's ouchy. And you definitely need to get out of his face - even with the indian hack you are still yanking his face off while asking him to canter - driving with the brakes on. I'm kinda glad there isn't a bit in his mouth there! How come you are riding him one handed there? I understand it being the first time on him and you are nervous. But definitely lighten up your hands and get your saddle checked out.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> I'm no good at critiques, especially of riders, but Cinny seems VERY uncomfortable in that vid, I think you really want to have someone who knows what they are doing check out your saddle - to my his body language is saying it's ouchy.


Thank you, I think I can see the possible discomfort in the saddle too. I probably won't buy it. 


Indyhorse said:


> And you definitely need to get out of his face - even with the indian hack you are still yanking his face off while asking him to canter - driving with the brakes on. I'm kinda glad there isn't a bit in his mouth there! How come you are riding him one handed there? I understand it being the first time on him and you are nervous. But definitely lighten up your hands and get your saddle checked out.


Riding one handed because I have discovered that he neck reins like a dream...so I felt more in control this way. I think I still have in the back of my mind that he threw his previous owner and it's doing bad things with my mind....and my seat.

I agree, I really need to relax, get out of his face. Although this isn't my first time riding him, it is the first time I have asked him for a canter. It really was an eye opener because it really exaggerated the things I really need to work on with myself.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I agree with indy on the saddle. Its hard to tell in the picture but cinnys face says it all. Something is bothering him and with all that 'tail talking' i would guess its that saddle. I wont even mention the getting in his face thing...you noticed it right off. It can be hard to trust a reclaim with its head but eventually you just have to do it. It took me a while (i had a 'reclaimer' too) but now that I did...he is so much more relaxed on that loose rein. 

The canter looks a lil 'jumpy' to me but if this is the first time he has cantered with you on...it looked pretty ok to me. He is a very forward mover...his walk is like a power walk! As far as the trot...why not sit it until he gets comfortable moving out. 

One last thing...i dont know him well enough to tell but if im interpretting my horse speak right...he hates that hackamore. When ridden on a tight rein, a hack can really do some damage...what did he ride on before? What did he do before? I thought i saw a peek of a lope there...was he trained western and you are trying to switch?

Now on to the nice part...
1) if you need to lose 50, i need to lose 100...dont get down about the weight...i like to think that the camera adds 10 pounds...to each leg and another 20 to my hind end!

2) I think your horse wants to do right by you. He seems very willing and really does want to try. He doesnt seem to resent your cues and he listens pretty well for possibly being uncomfortable.

3) He has beautiful straight-forward movement and a hes a real cutie...

Good luck! I hope this helped!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Saddle looked too small for you regardless what the horse thought. Your stirrups are too long also. Are you taking lessons? I would find a good instructor to help you as your posting and control needs alot of work.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> I agree with indy on the saddle. Its hard to tell in the picture but cinnys face says it all. Something is bothering him and with all that 'tail talking' i would guess its that saddle. I wont even mention the getting in his face thing...you noticed it right off. It can be hard to trust a reclaim with its head but eventually you just have to do it. It took me a while (i had a 'reclaimer' too) but now that I did...he is so much more relaxed on that loose rein.
> 
> The canter looks a lil 'jumpy' to me but if this is the first time he has cantered with you on...it looked pretty ok to me. He is a very forward mover...his walk is like a power walk! As far as the trot...why not sit it until he gets comfortable moving out.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what he did before. The lady I got him from said he had 30 days pro training about 5 years ago. I asked who trained him, she doesn't remember. He sat in pasture with him mommy till last summer when she started riding him on trail. After about a month he dumped her and she never got on again. I know she rode western but that's about it. I asked what kind of bit she used she said she didn't know, it was the one that came with the bridle. I have had him in a plain full cheek snaffle as I am trying to switch him but he doesn't direct rein at all. This puzzles my trainer friend and she's trying to figure out how they taught him to neck rein without ever direct reining him. 

I have used the hackamore a few times...and it isn't like a normal mechanical with a cub chain and all, just knotted rope. Since this was the first time cantering, and he neck reins like a dream, I thought this would be more appropriate because I had a feeling I might get in his face if I felt like he was gonna take me for more of a ride than I wanted...so I opted to stay out of his mouth.

Does this info help?


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

About the saddle, I'm pretty sure it's a few inches too small for you which probably isn't helping you be effective or him be comfortable. 

If it's any consolation to you, if he threw his last owner, his last owner must have been a terrible rider or must have done something really stupid because most of the horses I know, if they were looking as uncomfortable as he was right there, would have tried to throw you right there. And since he didn't even really try anything funny, just looked super uncomfortable, I'd bet that you'll have to work hard to get him to throw you. 

*hugs* I totally understand how you're feeling. I still remember the fourth day I had Lacey (back when she was certifiably psycho) when this dumb girl decided to tack her up and ride her without lunging her first and without asking me. I discovered them right as the girl climbed on and Lacey bolted, bucking as hard as she could until the girl came off. After that I was terrified of riding her. Lacey would jump around a little and I would get right off. Eventually, I realized that it really wasn't Lacey's fault and that I needed to trust her. Yknow what happened once I started trusting her? She started calming right down. Now I make it a point of doing things that give me less control with her sometimes just to show myself "look, you have a good horse, she could take off right now and there would be no stopping her, but she's turning off just your leg even though she desperately wants to go the other direction." Currently, I'm the only person that's ridden Lacey more than once that hasn't fallen off her, and I've ridden her more than anyone else in the last 2 years! So, have a little faith in Cinny, and yourself. I think once you loosen up and bring your energy down, you two will be just fine. 

Another thought: if he neckreins, have you tried riding him in a western saddle? I tried to make Lacey go english for the first year and a half, but one day I decided, out of the blue, to tack her up in a western saddle. She was trained as a dressage horse, way back in the day, so I'm pretty sure she's never had extensive time in a western saddle. Well, she took to the western saddle like it was her new best friend. She started getting calmer and moving better, it was just an all around change. Personally, I still prefer english but since Lacey doesn't, I'm gonna go with what she wants since it's not just a little preference, she really obviously prefers western.

Good luck!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> Saddle looked too small for you regardless what the horse thought. Your stirrups are too long also. Are you taking lessons? I would find a good instructor to help you as your posting and control needs alot of work.


Thank you, I agree the saddle was too small. I am glad I was able to try it before buying it.

This is where my stirrups are comfortable, if I go a whole shorter the outsides my knees start to KILL me. Maybe this is because something else is wrong with my seat??


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Hackamores can be very painfull if used incorrectly. At your level I would not use one


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Hackamores can be very painfull if used incorrectly. At your level I would not use one


I agree with this, but at the same time I'd hate to see her yanking on him like that with a bit in his mouth.

I'd suggest slowing down - get good with him at the walk and trot and not be in a hurry to canter until you have gotten to know him and his cues/vice versa. Working with a good instructor would be key here. I think you are trying to do too much too soon, you've only had him home for like, 2 weeks right?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Wallaby said:


> Another thought: if he neckreins, have you tried riding him in a western saddle? I tried to make Lacey go english for the first year and a half, but one day I decided, out of the blue, to tack her up in a western saddle. She was trained as a dressage horse, way back in the day, so I'm pretty sure she's never had extensive time in a western saddle. Well, she took to the western saddle like it was her new best friend. She started getting calmer and moving better, it was just an all around change. Personally, I still prefer english but since Lacey doesn't, I'm gonna go with what she wants since it's not just a little preference, she really obviously prefers western.
> 
> Good luck!


Actually I am considering it a bit. I am sort of torn, I really want to slim down and try hunter/jumper with him and yet I also think he may be a barrel horse in the making. So I'm torn. For now, we are just a "basics" team, walk trot, canter, halt, back....and when we are a smooth team doing that then we will decide where to go from there. I am trying out a barrel saddle this week..we'll see how it goes.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> I agree with this, but at the same time I'd hate to see her yanking on him like that with a bit in his mouth.
> 
> I'd suggest slowing down - get good with him at the walk and trot and not be in a hurry to canter until you have gotten to know him and his cues/vice versa. Working with a good instructor would be key here. I think you are trying to do too much too soon, you've only had him home for like, 2 weeks right?


I've had him for a little over a month but only been riding him 1 week. And I agree...too much too soon...my impatience has definatly taken over again.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Agree that the saddle is too small and your stirrups are too long. If your knees are killing you when you shorten stirrups, something else is going on - have an instructor look at your position in a coreectly fitting saddle and see if you can figure out what that is. You have to have your stirrups short enough that you can get out of the saddle readily and it doesn't look like that's happening. 

At the trot, I would really like to see you to exagerate your posting rhythm to *allow* him to lengthen the trot and *give* him the rhythm you want. To me, it looks like someone tried to produce a western jog in him with a harsh bit and sitting hard - that may be the origin of some of the tension and discomfort. You're barely posting and barely clearing the saddel; to help him, try a big, dressagy, slow motion post. Horses want to adjust to our rhythm; if you follow his incorrect, erratic rhythm, you're reinforcing undesirable behavior. Give him the rhythm you want, and he'll follow you. 

At the canter, just go *forward* and get out of his face. 

I agree with corino - he really is a nice guy who's trying to do right. For a horse that's clearly that uncomfortable that he's still trying is amazing. He also looks very prompt and obedient in the downward transitions. 

The more I look at him, the more I think someone tried to create western gaits on him overnight with a big old curb bit and a lot of crude riding. That may very well be why he goes better in the hackamore. I do agree with churumbeque though - a hackamore is not as benign as some folks believe, and you can abuse one in much the same way you can abuse a bit. Do make sure you keep your hand down and quiet, and allow as much forward as his willing to give. 

Finally, I'm not the moderator here, but wouldn't it make more sense to combine all your threads about Cinny's training in one place so all the info, photos and video clips are together?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> Hackamores can be very painfull if used incorrectly. At your level I would not use one


I agree. Although I am not quite a beginner (I rode western, english and showed both from ages 7 to 25) I am not quite where I should be. This is why I stayed away from the "headcracker" action of a typical mechanical hack and went with this one. here is a closer look of the type I am using.

I agree, it can still be painful, but it's the mildest thing I can think of right now.










And I have the rein connections tied so that it is in "sidepull mode" not squeezing...


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> Agree that the saddle is too small and your stirrups are too long. If your knees are killing you when you shorten stirrups, something else is going on - have an instructor look at your position in a coreectly fitting saddle and see if you can figure out what that is. You have to have your stirrups short enough that you can get out of the saddle readily and it doesn't look like that's happening.


This will be my next plan of attack as I will have the help of a dressage trainer starting this week. I also plan to go back to my saddle and not buy this one, even though mine is the same size. It's the one I've always had...for 15 years now but I clearly have outgrown it. I am on my way to slimming down so I think for now I will go for a cheaper "for now" saddle that actually fits me, as well as finding one that helps Cinny's comfort level.



maura said:


> At the trot, I would really like to see you to exagerate your posting rhythm to *allow* him to lengthen the trot and *give* him the rhythm you want. To me, it looks like someone tried to produce a western jog in him with a harsh bit and sitting hard - that may be the origin of some of the tension and discomfort. You're barely posting and barely clearing the saddel; to help him, try a big, dressagy, slow motion post. Horses want to adjust to our rhythm; if you follow his incorrect, erratic rhythm, you're reinforcing undesirable behavior. Give him the rhythm you want, and he'll follow you.
> 
> At the canter, just go *forward* and get out of his face.


 My next ride will DEFINITELY be with the intent of putting these suggestions to use!



maura said:


> I agree with corino - he really is a nice guy who's trying to do right. For a horse that's clearly that uncomfortable that he's still trying is amazing. He also looks very prompt and obedient in the downward transitions.
> 
> The more I look at him, the more I think someone tried to create western gaits on him overnight with a big old curb bit and a lot of crude riding. That may very well be why he goes better in the hackamore. I do agree with churumbeque though - a hackamore is not as benign as some folks believe, and you can abuse one in much the same way you can abuse a bit. Do make sure you keep your hand down and quiet, and allow as much forward as his willing to give.
> 
> Finally, I'm not the moderator here, but wouldn't it make more sense to combine all your threads about Cinny's training in one place so all the info, photos and video clips are together?


I agree, he is a very willing and obedient horse. He has a great DOWN transition, and it seems like his UP transitions are pretty smooth it's just that second and third stride that it starts to go wrong, and I'm even more sure it is me doing it and not him. Amazing what a video and other peoples insights can do!

And I agree, I should just start a Cinny Training thread


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

In re: saddle fitting. Yes, losing weight helps, but weight has nothing to do with the length of your femur. If the saddle is too smalll to allow correct leg position without your knee jutting over or jamming into the knee roll, that's a bone/skeleton issue, not a weight issue. 

Losing weight will make the seat of the saddle fit better, and allow you to adjust your seatbone position; but it won't do anything for where your leg falls on the saddle flap.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I used to use a western saddle that my knees screamed in the whole ride. I could hardly walk for 20 mins after a ride. I got an Aussie saddle and now I can ride all day.

How about trying a bitless bridle. Thats what I am starting Hunter in. Have only used it once but he responded very well to it.

Here is a picture (this bridle is a Barefoot Bitless Bridle)


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> In re: saddle fitting. Yes, losing weight helps, but weight has nothing to do with the length of your femur. If the saddle is too smalll to allow correct leg position without your knee jutting over or jamming into the knee roll, that's a bone/skeleton issue, not a weight issue.
> 
> Losing weight will make the seat of the saddle fit better, and allow you to adjust your seatbone position; but it won't do anything for where your leg falls on the saddle flap.


Oh My Gosh....I think you have just hit me on the head with an epiphany!!! Here are some pics of me in MY saddle (not the one in the vid) from um..I think 1992..I was 22 so fully grown minus padding lol. Sorry they are such bad quality but I think you can clearly see my leg position. The red head with the hat was my trainer at the time. Anyway, does it appear that my saddle was an improper fit back then? My trainer NEVER said anything, but now...I really think that it may have started me off on years of bad riding!!

















Oh, and I know the hunt coat was ENORMOUS...it was borrowed cuz I was a poor college student. And my trainer said I had bad feet so she made me pull the heels down on my boot so I looked good...which I HATED.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I would personally like to see you in a Western saddle at this time. I know how it feels - I am just over 200 pounds now and it's affected my riding HORRIBLY. I've BEEN 130 pounds before, I know what the difference feels like, as I'm well sure you do.

I've almost completely stopped riding English. :-( I understand I can probably do it with some work, but I have the exact same problem you do - when I post, my dimpy little stirrup leathers swing forward under my weight, and I "crash" back into the saddle. I can keep it up for periods of time, but every few strides I'll lose my balance, my leg swings forward and my whole body swings back.

I'm working hard to lose some weight and I'd like to start taking Dressage lessons again when I drop about 20-30 pounds. I feel MUCH more comfortable in a big Western pleasure saddle right now, as I also have problems with my knees! I'm able to let my Western stirrup out comfortably whereas I can't do that with an English stirrup or I flop like a bag of potatoes.

I think your confidence and Cinny's comfort would improve with a Western saddle for now, especially if you're riding him one handed in a hack anyway. You can always learn to ride English again, it looks like we both knew how to do it very well at one point, but we both need the help of an instructor to learn how to do it right again with with our "extra padding"! :lol:


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Try western! You never know what you will spark in him and a lil extra leather between you and your horse right now wont hurt a thing. Also, on the bit front...if he was trained western and neck reins...have you tried a curb...(please dont kill me for suggesting!) My boy came to me with NO background. You could see that he was, at one time, properly trained. I tried everything up to and including that indian bosal hack. He went well in a hack...he went well on a Tom Thumb. He was clueless in any type of snaffle, full cheek-eggbutt-frenchlink...i got nothing but running through the bit and resentment of me attempting to correct him. I tried a curb bit thinking there was a slight possibility if he was trained to ride western that he would take to it and he did. I still kept looking because I was uncomfortable with the curb and how much stopping power i had. 12 new bits later, we ride on a 6 dollar aluminum curb that is light in his mouth. I am a very cautious rider and i always like a lil more bit than I need. If he isn't responding to a snaffle, it may be because he was trained different and a curb uses poll pressure. Give it a try. Im sure someone you know has an old curb laying in the bottom of a tack trunk


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Try western! You never know what you will spark in him and a lil extra leather between you and your horse right now wont hurt a thing. Also, on the bit front...if he was trained western and neck reins...have you tried a curb...(please dont kill me for suggesting!) My boy came to me with NO background. You could see that he was, at one time, properly trained. I tried everything up to and including that indian bosal hack. He went well in a hack...he went well on a Tom Thumb. He was clueless in any type of snaffle, full cheek-eggbutt-frenchlink...i got nothing but running through the bit and resentment of me attempting to correct him. I tried a curb bit thinking there was a slight possibility if he was trained to ride western that he would take to it and he did. I still kept looking because I was uncomfortable with the curb and how much stopping power i had. 12 new bits later, we ride on a 6 dollar aluminum curb that is light in his mouth. I am a very cautious rider and i always like a lil more bit than I need. If he isn't responding to a snaffle, it may be because he was trained different and a curb uses poll pressure. Give it a try. Im sure someone you know has an old curb laying in the bottom of a tack trunk


Actually it's not really stopping I have an issue with. He stops wonderfully. I always joke that he has power brakes....and he does so with me shifting weight back and saying whoa NOT WITH REIN PRESSURE... and it's the same whatever down transition I want. It's the steering with a direct rein that he doesn't really respond to. He has the beginnings of it with a plain full cheek snaffle. If I ask him to bend his nose the the girth he will "give" and then occasionally grab my foot in his mouth. It's just when we are in motion that he sort of forgets what that direct rein means and starts to get tense. That and I really try super hard to stay out of his mouth with his snaffle.

My plan is to use the neck reining as sort of a "crutch" (for want of a better word) and use leg and posture cues with it. Then ask with leg/posture cues first with reins as a secondary. Once he's going on leg/posture cues alone I am planning on reintroducing the snaffle.

And I wouldn't "kill" you for suggesting a curb...I have used them on other horses and there is nothing wrong with your suggestion  But I think for a curb I need to be a bit more settled with my hands or I will only be introducing pain to his poll and chin.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have to agree that a curb would not be a good idea right now. There is too much bite there for someone with hands as busy as your's are. If you think the hackamore is being a bit too harsh, you might try a simple halter and see how he goes. Also, with as green as he is, you shouldn't be trying to control his speed with 2 reins right now. Ride him on a loose rein and if he starts going too fast, pick up the inside rein and make your circle smaller. That will slow him down. Also, a western saddle wouldn't be a terrible idea. If nothing else, it will spread your weight out over a bigger surface area and that will make him more comfortable and you will be less concerned about hurting him. It would also offer you a horn that you can use to help get yourself more balanced and help you keep time with him. For right now, just focus on yourself and get control of your own body. Do a lot of work at the walk and trot, get your position solid before trying to move up to the canter. One of the reasons that he is so rough is because he is travelling really hollow and has his head in the air. If you get a saddle that is comfortable for him and put something on his head that is soft and forgiving, that will likely improve his movement a lot.


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

I have to agree with others on the western saddle. A western saddle may be much more comfortable for you and for your horse, at least right now. If anything, it will help you sit quietly and with a nice deep seat which will help Cinny balance and move forward better. This will also help steady and soften your hands. I also agree with the suggestion to go to a bitless bridle or a gentle snaffle bit. You can use the neck reining as an additional aid, but at some point, you will want Cinny to accept and respond to gentle rein contact. You will need to keep soft steady hands to make this more obvious to him. You also need to be confident enough and solid enough in your seat to provide a quick release when you get even a little give from him. Again, the western saddle might be just the thing to give you the support you need. Once both of you have steadied and are giving nicely, then you could go back to a properly fitted english saddle.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Everything that Maura said plus one other little suggestion:

I was always taught never to canter from an unbalanced trot as the result is always an unbalanced canter. Why don't you wait a while for the cantering, at least until his trot is even, balanced and controlled (and you feel comfortable posting also). His canter will improve immensely as a result. Also, whilst he is still in the early stages of training, you may need to make your circles a little wider so he can establish a nice even rhythym without too much worry about lopsided turns.

Good luck with him he looks like a sweetheart!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Here's a suggestion...

One, his sidepull seems to be set way too low on his nose; that may be why he is trying to evade it, and tosses his head...bring it up, and slightly above the end of the cartilage on his nose, and I bet you see a big difference in his comfort level in regard to the head peice. 

Two, you need a bigger saddle...there should be a bit of room between your hiney and the 'end' of the saddle; that would help with your balance, and seat ALOT. 

Three, raise your stirrups a bit...you have too much length to help you balance, and post properly, and raising them slightly should help you bring your leg under you properly, and help you use your body more effectively while riding.


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## danastark (Jul 17, 2008)

I agree with the western saddle advice. My friend is learning how to ride on our large pony gelding and her balance isn't the best yet, getting better though! She's finally accomplished posting by going on lots of trail rides and following along behind me on long, flat dirt roads so she can concentrate on what she's doing and not worry about having to turn or really keep him going. I let her hang on to the saddle horn when she needs to, makes her feel more comfortable and saves his mouth. She cantered for the first time this last week using these techniques, reins in one hand, holding the saddle horn and just following me and did very well  When you need to lose weight, you tend to be top heavy and that makes it harder to stay balanced. Goodluck on that one. I think we all look at pictures of ourselves as younger riders and sigh........ As far as fit of the english saddle, sit in a chair and measure your thigh from the back of your rear to your knee. That, in inches is the size of seat you would be best in. I ride in a 19 inch seat now but when I was younger, I rode in a 16 in. so things do change as you get older. Another way to tell if a saddle fits is if you can fit 4 fingers between your rear and the cantle (end of your saddle).

Cinny looks like a really good boy. Goodluck to you!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> This will be my next plan of attack as I will have the help of a dressage trainer starting this week.



Probably a good idea.

I won't go over what has already been said but you are not in shape and this horse doesn't really know where to put its feet. You position doesn't help and you look to be trying western reining but actually riding english. 

Just a tip....the farther out in front of your body your arms are the more steady they MUST be. If you kept your arms closer to your body with a bent elbow your hands and body will be more stable.

What I would be doing with this horse right now is lunging ( and free lunging) as well as a lot of ground work with a bit. This can be done very easily with a bridle and two leads attached to the bit one on either side with the outside rein over the withers so you are on the ground and holding two reins and work the reins as if you were riding.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you so much to everyone for your advice. I have a nice big list of things to remember and work on and I plan to put the bulk of it into my future rides....including borrowing a western saddle as I can't afford two new saddles and if I invest in one I really want to invest in either a forward seat or dressage saddle.

I think I'm going to work my butt off (no pun intended...okay so maybe it was intentional) and maybe later put up a one month progress for comparison. I'm so excited. I thought I was doing very well, then I decided I was doing really bad....but now I have new direction. You guys are great!!!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cinny - 

In re: saddle size and fitting the rider, yes, the saddle in your old photos is way too small and the flap was the wrong shape and length for your leg. The knee roll is *under* your knee, forcing it off the horse; in one photo, your knee is actually in front of the knee roll. Ideally, you shouldn't even know there's a knee roll on your saddle until you're landing from a big fence, going downhill or riding a buck. It should act as emergency support, nothing else. 

As for seat size, the old rule about a full hand's width behind your seat to the cantle is a good one; but it's also important not to be bumping your pubic bone into the cantle, and not to feel "locked" in the seat. You want your seat bones to have room to slide back and forth in a following seat; and to be able to adjust your postion in the saddle when you need to.

I suspect your knees hurting when you shorten stirrups has a lot to do with the saddle fit.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> Cinny -
> 
> In re: saddle size and fitting the rider, yes, the saddle in your old photos is way too small and the flap was the wrong shape and length for your leg. The knee roll is *under* your knee, forcing it off the horse; in one photo, your knee is actually in front of the knee roll. Ideally, you shouldn't even know there's a knee roll on your saddle until you're landing from a big fence, going downhill or riding a buck. It should act as emergency support, nothing else.
> 
> ...


GHAAAAAAAAAAAAHH

I know it's in the past...by over 10 years....but why the heck did the 2 trainers that worked with me in THAT saddle ever not say ANYTHING about the fit.

Note to self: Tell all new trainers to be brutally honest about any and all tack fit issues!!

I swear, I NEVER KNEW!


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## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

your leg looks unstable and moves back and forth alot with each stride . Aswell as the other things people have said I agree with.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Cinny is such a little cutey! What a big heart, he's there to please you, that is a definite. As for the stirrups, I have no issues with them being longer, rather them too short when training a horse... but they are long for show.

I agree with you, put your big girl panties on and let that horse run! LOL... I think you are definitely on the right track. Have you tried a bit? Just curious.

PS - I only read page 1 so apoligizing in advance...


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

From what I saw in the first few minutes: I would either stop neck reining or get lessons on how to. You put the rein over her neck but at the same time was pulling on both sides of her face. You didn't reward her once with release of pressure. From what others have said I would get a western saddle, or possibly look into western lessons? I feel you would be more comfortable riding western.

Your balance is horrible, you are turning way too much. Which results in being more off balance. 

At the trot and canter you didn't get out of your horses face once and that is why her head is up high and why she keeps throwing it.

When your done posting or at the canter you land so hard on your horses back, it probably is very uncomfortable for him and hurts him.

My advice? Don't even work at the trot or canter until you can relax and get the correct balance at the walk.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

ok ill let everyone else tell you about your tack, coz they already have! but when youve got your saddle sorted i would shorten your stirrups so your posting is more comfortable for you and him and in canter try a light seat- standing up, weight in the stirrups, butt outta saddle. 
good luck, he is a lovely horse.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey, there is an excercise I recommed to people to improve their leg and core strength for riding and might be useful for you too:

Place your back against a wall, squatting your legs, your knees should be at a right angle (kind of like you are sitting in a chair but without the chair itself). See how long you can hold that position with your arms at your sides. Sounds easy right? It's really really hard, when you first try it you might only be able to hold the position for 10 or 20 seconds, just hold the pose a little longer each time you do it. This builds great leg strength.

When you have the hang of that, grab a medicine ball (2-4 kgs) and hold it. If you can, raise the medicine ball above your head, slowly. This one will build core strength.

I only suggest this as a way to improve your balance and control when you are posting, not trying to be a personal trainer or anything!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Oh man, I HATED the chair during track practice, but saraver is right when she says it builds leg strength...that and abdominal strength, when done properly! But oh the burn!!!! hahahahaha


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

About your knees, a friend of my mother has horrible knees, and is always in a lot of pain when she rides, but she bought a sort of stretchy 'brace' that she uses now that offers the right support for her knees and they don't hurt her as much. Perhaps that's an option?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Sarahver...I totally FORGOT about that exercise...or I blocked it out, one or the other. I'll start doing that one again, it's great! You also made me remember another one my trainer used to have me do years ago...you get one of those toy balls from the toy store and while you are at the computer, watching tv, etc...you squeeze it between your knees....cheap thigh master lol.

I got Cin moved in to the Equestrian Center. I spoke with the trainer and she said there is no reason why I can't continue on with dressage with a proper fitting saddle (she's a curvy woman too and still competes in ribbons). So we are on the look out for an affordable dressage saddle the correct size...which has been determined to be 18 1/2 which um...is more of a custom deal. She said I can do an 18 or a 19. For now I will be riding with my bareback pad and my 16 inch forward seat will be inherited by my daughter or sold..my daughter is still deciding as she currently is just getting in to riding and trying out all disciplines to decide which one is "for her." I'm leaning toward Western Pleasure because it's what she's best at, but I haven't told her, it's her choice.

Also...something that came as a surprise to both Cinny and myself, the indoor arena at our new EQ center has mirrors in all the corners! That is going to be so helpful!! I took Cin over to stand in front of them so he would get used to them and it only took him one nose bump to realize that other horse had no way of jumping out and "getting" him. There is another horse in Cin's pasture that is black with a white star and he chases Cin from the round bale currently, so I'm sure Cin thought it was THAT horse getting ready to chase him again. Can't wait until Cin figures out that he is stronger than that 25 YO TB and get himself some of that round bale.

I have also joined curves...now I need to rearrange my day even more to fit THAT in but it will be better for Cin and myself to make it work.

Again, thank you everyone for your help. Even if I haven't addressed you by name, I have read EVERY post and considered ALL advice. I know several of you say I should go Western for a while but I am going to try dressage for a bit longer with the watchful eye of the 3 dressage trainers at the Equestrian center. I started out riding western pleasure for the first 5 years that I rode back in the early 80's and...well, I just really feel more comfortable English. I have nothing against Western and Western Pleasure, I just don't like it for myself as well as the way they want the horses to move. It's a personal thing...and it's just not "for me."


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I know how it feels - I am just over 200 pounds now and it's affected my riding HORRIBLY. I've BEEN 130 pounds before, I know what the difference feels like, as I'm well sure you do.


I was at the dressage clinic in April and couple ladies there were way over 200 lbs and in their 50th may be. However they had a great seat, calm legs and hands, and rode nicely (although I didn't stay till they cantered, I'm talking only about the trot). I must admit they had even more quiet seat then me. So I'm 100% positive with the all experience you have you can ride english. 

To the OP, getting lessons is a great idea. He looks like a very nice horse, and I agree with other people comments - that saddle looks very uncomfortable to you and him. Good luck with your riding!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

maura said:


> Finally, I'm not the moderator here, but wouldn't it make more sense to combine all your threads about Cinny's training in one place so all the info, photos and video clips are together?


Great Idea! I have finally done this by starting a journal http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/cinnys-going-journey-requests-advice-critiques-57355/ And will start posting all my questions, etc there for anybody who wants to follow my journey with Cin.


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## maz78 (Jun 15, 2010)

I'm no expert but agree with not using a hackmore unless you are very experience as they can do more damage than a gentle bit. Have a friend who rides in one because her horse hates a bit but she barely has contanct with her horses mouth and rides with her seat. Agree with the other posts that the saddle is a problem. And also the horse is obvisously a gem because as uncomfortable as he looked he didn't look as though he was going to do anything nasty. However I have just got a new horse and realise how hard it is to put your trust in them and let them have there head. But you have to give to recieve, as hard as it is. Lovely horse though, I'm sure you will both get there.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The saddle it too small and also is not right for you since it pitches you backward a bit. See how your legs shoot forward each time you try to post? Besides your stirrups being a bit long, having the counterbalance against a saddle that throws you back into the saddle makes it very difficult to post. If you can, visit a tack shop that has a large variety of saddles, so you can sit in as many as possible. Some will tip you forward, some backward and some will balance you well. For a saddle size, a decent rule of thumb is to measure the length from the back of your bum to the tip of your knee. I forget the exact sizing, but I think 19-21" is a 17, 21"-23" is an 18, etc. If you cannot fit your hand behind your butt, it's too small.


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