# Discussion of showjumping deaths



## SarahAnn

bubba13 said:


> My question is, after reading all these responses saying, "yep, I've seen horses collapse and die, too!"--um, what is going on? Now I'm out of the horse racing loop by a long shot, but I hear about breakdowns from leg injuries all the time....but never heart attack / aneurysm deaths. And I'm around a lot of Western performance, rodeo, and trail horses, and have known a very few catastrophic injuries (actually, only one of which happened to a horse I knew, and none in my presence)....but again, no horses collapsing and dying. These things do, occasionally, happen in freak circumstances, I know. I saw a video of a mariachi musician's horse falling, convulsing, and dying with no warning, and heard a story of the same happening during a parade. Again, freak circumstances, just coincidental, horses with underlying problems. But multiples in a single sport like that, according to the above posters, happening with regularity? What gives?


Took the words right out of my mouth... What's going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Allison Finch said:


>


This piqued my curiosity, so I have to ask now, too....what's up with this?


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## bubba13

Well, the owner and people personally affected by the tragedy aren't here reading it, and the horse sure doesn't know or care (and wouldn't, even if he were alive), so I suppose I don't see much of a point to be expressing public sympathy to a bunch of bystanders with no dog in the fight. I'd rather think it would go without saying that it's sad when _any_ horse dies, phenomenal athlete or not. I also think it would be rather even more inappropriate to start a thread for the sole purpose of criticizing the rider's bit choice.

And to me, if you can make a learning opportunity out of a tragedy, well, that's about the only good that can come of it. Rather like the deaths of famous racehorses (Ruffian/Barbaro/Eight Belles) and subsequent investigations into industry policy change.


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## Dressage10135

You wouldn't be criticizing the choice of the bit, you'd be learning about it. Right? 

You can say none of us have a "dog in the fight", but I, as well as others, loved watching this horse perform so I truly did feel sad when this happened. It doesn't matter that any of us knew him personally, he was a legend and a representative of the Canadian team. Its called respect. 

Of course learning is always a good thing, I just think it could be separated so that those who actually feel bad can express that.


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## kevinshorses

A rider at that level won't stay horseless for long. 

I don't pretend to know much about showjumping but it seems to me that the reason it may be less uncommon to see horses die like that in a jumping ring is that they are generally large horses and older than most TB racehorses. It's also quite an athletic feat to jump that high and must put quite a strain on the horse.


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## VelvetsAB

_It is quite common for horses at that level to be over 10 years old, with some competing well into their late teens. _

_Big Ben was retired at 18, after 11 years of competition._


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## bubba13

Dressage10135 said:


> You wouldn't be criticizing the choice of the bit, you'd be learning about it. Right?


Right, but I suspect it would turn ugly quickly, and _that_ would be disrespectful.



> You can say none of us have a "dog in the fight", but I, as well as others, loved watching this horse perform so I truly did feel sad when this happened. It doesn't matter that any of us knew him personally, he was a legend and a representative of the Canadian team. Its called respect.
> 
> Of course learning is always a good thing, I just think it could be separated so that those who actually feel bad can express that.


To be honest, given all the views this thread has had, I thought it would be the best place to start a discussion of good information--to get some answers. And at any rate I can't change what's been posted.

Kevin, what you are saying makes sense; I hadn't considered that. But if that is the case, and if these events are occuring with any frequency whatsoever, perhaps it is time to reevaluate standards.


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## kitten_Val

VelvetsAB said:


> _It is quite common for horses at that level to be over 10 years old, with some competing well into their late teens. _


True. All horses (24 of them) at GP last week were from 10 to 14 years old.


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## maura

I don't have any facts or figures, but based on my memory of news reports, deaths while performing are more common in show jumpers than any other discipline except racing. 

I remember Richard Spooner literally had a horse die underneatch in the ring some years back.

There are a couple of factors that contribute; first, they are incredibly fit athletes. If they have any kind of cardiovascular problem or weakness, show jumping is going to aggravate it. If a horse had a small aneurism, he could live a long healthy life in another discipline. Go look at some GP video - a horse making a big effort over a large spread fence is likely to rupture that aneurism, break blood vessels or otherwise aggravate any other underlying structural weakness. 

I don't know for sure that it's a factor, but if you follow Hickstead's career, he had a lot of frequent flyer miles. He was in Hong Kong for the Olympics, and this show was in Verona, Italy. International travel in general and flying in particular is incredibly stressful on horses. 

As far as the hackamore/bit combo, I have seen it before in jumpers. The idea is pretty staightforward - you have two ways of influencing the horse's way of going instead of one. Looks like he has a modified bit converter on there, so he's always exerting some pressure on the hack and some on the bit. 

I have never ridden a horse in this setup; so I can't speak more directly to it than that. Jumpers can be hot and jumper riders tend to work their way through a tack catalog as a horse's career progresses. Hickstead certainly appears to be "up" and very forward in the ring if you watch him perform.

The proof is in the pudding - the horse clearly likes his job, and jumps classically correctly, round and with a relaxed and extended head and neck. And while he's very forward, he doesn't appear to be resisting or fighting his rider down to his fences. So while I'm not going to recommend this equipment to a Pony Clubber, I am loathe to criticize a world class rider using it on a very talented horse with great success.


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## thesilverspear

I have known of a few horses -- far from Hickstead's level of performance -- who have died of heart attacks or aneurisms. These were amateur, low level competition horses, but all were also thoroughbreds. I hazily remember reading something somewhere about a genetic defect, found especially in TBs, which predisposes them to specifically aortic aneurisms. Has anyone else heard of this? Am I remembering this right?


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## maura

FYI, Hickstead was a Dutch Warmblood, not a TB. 

I'm not familiar with TBs being congenitally prone to aortic aneurisms, but it may very well be true.


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## thesilverspear

Sorry, I assumed he was a TB. But I suppose a lot of KWPN horses will have a fair bit of TB in them. In any case, I think it was an owner who lost her horse -- a TB -- to an an aortic aneurism who may have told me this. So not an authoritative source, but I just thought I'd put it out there.


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## Allison Finch

I saw a QH die the same way in a warm-up ring. I'm not sure the TB link would apply, here. As for the deaths, horses competing at the top of the game, especially in such a demanding sport of as showjumping and putting extreme demands on themselves. And, to get to these levels they have a long history of training and experience, so most are no spring chickens.

Think of the human athletes who die in similar circumstances. It is not uncommon to see the same collapses among the human sports, although most human athletes are on the younger side.

I think it would be ridiculous to say horses shouldn't be asked to jump, as I see this is the direction Bubba seems to be going. Once that theory pops up, all disciplines can be opened to the same scrutiny. Just because we haven't been shown live telecasts of reining horses collapsing may be more a factor of the popularity of televising this sport than whether or not similar incidents happen.

Horses keel over doing all types of sports or simply die in a pasture. Horses putting such passion in their work, as showjumpers do, will definitely be more prone to the effects of congenital weaknesses than a horse standing around doing little.

A horse at these levels LOVES what they do. Several horses I have worked with at this level would free jump any jumps set up in a ring if I turned them out to frolic in a ring with courses set up.

So, Bubba, do you think that no horses have ever collapsed running barrels, a passion of yours?


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## Jake and Dai

I went back yesterday and watched a lot of Hickstead and Eric's performances and the sheer *joy* that lovely horse showed when jumping was palpable. He was obviously born to jump GP...and looked incredibly happy as he rocketed around the arena and sailed over the poles. I could not imagine a horse such as he doing anything else.


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## Allison Finch

A stallion I jumped at that level loved jumping so much it was funny. If I put dressage tack on him for flatwork, you could feel his strong disapproval. He would moan as he was asked to do halfpass and other more demanding movements. He would do it to please me, but he didn't enjoy it. BUT, when I put jumping tack on him he would grab for the bit. It made bridling him even harder.

If the jumps were low and boring, he would show his displeasure. The infrequent times when the jumps were high and tight, you could feel him come alive. The tighter the turns, the more he loved it. 

You may ask....Well, how do YOU know he loved it?" If you ever saw the horse, you wouldn't ask this question. The few who have ridden him (a member of another forum is one of the few who did ride him, though many were offered the opportunity, will tell you how much he lived to jump.

Sadly, this stallion died, recently, after long health related infirmities. Not nice seeing this noble horse go this way. I almost wish HE had left doing what he loved....quickly, as Hickstead did.


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## maura

As horrible as that video is to watch, and as horrible as it must have been for Eric Lamaze, from the horse's point of view...it was quick, probably fairly painless and he died at the height of his ability and prowess. So not such a bad way for a great one to go, except for the utter shock of it.


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## bsms

I've read of steeplechase horses whose rider came off in the first couple of jumps running the rest of the course on their own.

**** Francis, best known as a mystery writer, wrote of a horse that drove him nuts as a rider. When he was in the mood to jump, he'd win. When he wasn't...well, no rider could make him win. Francis would know, before the race started, if he was going to win or finish near the end. And the bettors would give him hell for losing, and even suggest he was holding the horse back, because they KNEW he was capable of better. And he was - if he felt like winning that day.

I'm at the lowest level of pleasure riding, but even I can tell that sometimes the horse is having fun, and sometimes not. If Mia is having a good day, and we have a good ride, at the end she'll give me a look that makes me think I ought to offer her a cigarette...


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## Jake and Dai

Off topic but...*bsms*...do you recall the title of that book? I've read all of **** Francis' mystery novels multiple times (love him) but don't think I've read any of his non-fiction work. I'm about to head off on a business trip and need to load up my Kindle.


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## Buckcherry

I have a question, Do these owner think to have these horses checked for any medical problems before each competition. I would think and hope that being a responsible horse owner they would and hopefully if it was something evident that this could have been prevented. Usually there are some sort of signs of a heart attack before it happens.


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## kevinshorses

In most people they don't have many symptoms before a heartattack so I would imagine that it would be much harder in a horse. I am sure that a horse like the one that died yesterday have the very best medical care available to any animal (humans included). The owners of the horse lost hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions when that horse tipped over in the ring. People that own horses like that don't only view them as investments and they would do the best for the horse regardless but nobody in thier right mind would risk a horse that could have made millions as a sire if they had to retire him early.


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## Jake and Dai

I read an article a while back (it was fairly old) about the veterinary support that went with the US team to Beijing. And oh my! I wish I could afford that kind of care for myself and my family. It was the best of the best (in my completely uneducated view). I have to believe Hickstead had that all along in his amazing career.


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## Annnie31

Eric and Hickstead's story would be a great novel. The man who struggled with his professional and personal life being matched up to a horse that was considered unrideable in many circles. They met, and they succeeded and I believe had it not been for the incredible lack of understanding Eric had with this horse, Hickstead may never have become the world class show jumper he was.
As with any athlete, there comes risk with age and I believe Hickstead loved his job, loved his rider, and died doing his job...with great dignity. It doesnt matter how much some would like to make this into something it isnt, the horse was not ready to retire, he loved his job too much. 
I have watched many videos of these two, and if there is one thing I can say for certain, Eric wanted what was best for that horse, and the _gentle_ tap he gave Hickstead on his forehead in the end was no more that Eric saying..."Get up my friend, dont give up on me." 
The Royal will be filled with tears as they salute Hickstead on opening nite. Wish I was going this year.


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## Allison Finch

Buckcherry said:


> I have a question, Do these owner think to have these horses checked for any medical problems before each competition. I would think and hope that being a responsible horse owner they would and hopefully if it was something evident that this could have been prevented. Usually there are some sort of signs of a heart attack before it happens.


I understand what you are asking and, yes, horses at that level are checked often for their health. But I have to ask you, do you get checked by a doctor every time you jog, or go bowling, or play golf? Many times the only way a human knows that they have coronary artery disease or any other heart trouble is when they have an acute attack....some of those fatal. I doubt that if they had any knowledge that Hickstead had a heart problem that they would have kept jumping him. He could make almost as much money standing in his paddock breeding.


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## bsms

Jake and Dai said:


> Off topic but...*bsms*...do you recall the title of that book? I've read all of **** Francis' mystery novels multiple times (love him) but don't think I've read any of his non-fiction work. I'm about to head off on a business trip and need to load up my Kindle.








It is a collection of a series of articles he wrote after he stopped riding. It is a bit uneven, but I really enjoyed it.


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## gigem88

Annnie31 said:


> Eric and Hickstead's story would be a great novel. The man who struggled with his professional and personal life being matched up to a horse that was considered unrideable in many circles. They met, and they succeeded and I believe had it not been for the incredible lack of understanding Eric had with this horse, Hickstead may never have become the world class show jumper he was.


It makes one wonder what great horses (past and present) that never were because they weren't paired with the right rider, trainer, owner, etc.


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## Jake and Dai

Thanks *bsms*.

**runs off to Amazon**


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## Buckcherry

This is not as simple as going for a jog or going bowling this it hard competition which horses were not really made for. Yes certain breeds excell at the sport but jumping is not a natural thing for horses. Just like racing long distances and starting them at the age of 2 isn't nautral. People need to consider the horses health over all, especially if they want their horse to live a long and happy life. 

Its not just about winning money and competing, owners and riders need to take into consideration their horse health and it should be a bigger issue than it is. And yes if I competed my horse that seriously I would have him vet checked before and after each show. I think a responsible horse owner should, if they cared more about their horse and less about how much money they are winning. 



> The owners of the horse lost hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions when that horse tipped over in the ring


This is what I'm saying, people think to much about the money and not enough about the actual horse and it's well being. IMO


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## kevinshorses

What I'm saying is that the two are often the same thing as they were in this case. If I own a $250,000 Ferrari I'm not going to miss too many oil changes or take it to some half-assed shade tree mechanic. I'm going to make sure that whoever works on the car is the best money can hire. The same goes for a horse like this. 

There is FAR more abuse in the local shows than there is at the high levels. There are far more backyard pets that are crippled or dead at 15 than there are high level jumpers or eventers or rope horses or cutters because they don't get the medical care or the hoof care or the exercise and training that these athletes do. If you don't wan tot compete in this type of activity then don't. Most of us wouldn't get there anyway.


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## thesilverspear

Buckcherry said:


> This is not as simple as going for a jog or going bowling this it hard competition which horses were not really made for. Yes certain breeds excell at the sport but jumping is not a natural thing for horses. Just like racing long distances and starting them at the age of 2 isn't nautral. People need to consider the horses health over all, especially if they want their horse to live a long and happy life.


Horses were "not really made for" riding, but I imagine you ride them. If you don't have evidence that more Grand Prix showjumpers break down or fall over dead from sudden heart failure than backyard, amateur horses, I'd be interested in seeing it. But I bet you don't, because as Kevin says, those GP horses are treated far better and receive far superior care, veterinary and otherwise, than your average backyard nag.


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## Golden Horse

thesilverspear said:


> those GP horses are treated far better and receive far superior care, veterinary and otherwise, than your average backyard nag.


Absolutely, they are treated like the pampered athletes that they are, first class travel, a groom to wait in their every need, first class food, proper training, etc etc.

I would argue that the horse who belongs to a teenager who has left it in the field all summer, then suddenly decides to go out and take it for a run, is at more danger of injury or breakdown.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Buckcherry said:


> This is not as simple as going for a jog or going bowling this it hard competition which horses were not really made for. Yes certain breeds excell at the sport but jumping is not a natural thing for horses. Just like racing long distances and starting them at the age of 2 isn't nautral. People need to consider the horses health over all, especially if they want their horse to live a long and happy life.
> 
> Its not just about winning money and competing, owners and riders need to take into consideration their horse health and it should be a bigger issue than it is. And yes if I competed my horse that seriously I would have him vet checked before and after each show. I think a responsible horse owner should, if they cared more about their horse and less about how much money they are winning.
> 
> This is what I'm saying, people think to much about the money and not enough about the actual horse and it's well being. IMO


Methinks you need to go out and do some research. I knew a guy who raced QHs when I was in high school (my dad sold him the ranch where he raised and trained them). Those horses were *required* to be vetted thoroughly before and after each race, at the owners' expense. Endurance horses are vetted before, during and after each race. I find it hard to believe that show jumpers and XC horses aren't the same. Instead of just assuming that the horses aren't vetted and making a huge deal out of it, go do the research.

As for caring about the money more than the actual horse, can you really not see that the two go hand-in-hand? Without the horse, the money isn't there, so it's in the owners' best interest to keep the horse as healthy as possible. Also, without the money, the horse couldn't get the absolute best care possible. Heck, with as much as Hickstead made, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he had his own personal vet on-call 24-7.

Touching on the subject of preventing such a tragedy...sometimes it's impossible to detect any signs of illness, just as others have said. Animals are programmed not to show pain. Especially prey animals, like horses. They show pain or weakness and they are an easy target for predators. Sometimes you don't know anything is wrong until it's too late. Also, they aren't like humans, who it seems are programmed to complain about every little tiny inconvenience or ache. They can't tell us when something hurts, especially not when it's on the inside. We do the best we can checking them, but without them able to tell us "You know, my heart feels a little weird today," there may not be the signs that we can see to know that something isn't right.

A perfect (human) example of a life-threatening illness/injury occurring with no warning, to someone in their prime, in good health overall, is what happened with a dear friend of my family's from Russia. She was my parents' translator when they were in Russia for a year and a half and since moving the the US to pursue her education, has become more like a sister to us than a friend. She is a year older than I am (which makes her 30), in perfect overall health. She has an internship as a translator for the LDS church working out of Manhattan, and was about to interview for a job at the United Nations doing the same thing. Three weeks ago, she was hospitalized with some very odd symptoms. It turns out that she had had a stroke, then had another one while in the hospital. The doctors are still at a loss to explain where the strokes came from or what triggered them. If something as dangerous as a stroke can come out of nowhere in a person who is overall healthy, watches what they eat, and is young, how much moreso is it possible for something like what happened with Hickstead to happen without warning?


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Autopsys are mandatory for insurance claims. The owners of the horse are not losing a penny as every horse at that level will be insured for a lot of money, especially mortality.
The horses at that level, at those events are getting evaluated by veterinarians every day. The health of the horse is paramount and if that horse had taken a hoofstep wrong he would not have been in the competition. Comparatively to human medicine, cardiovascular monitoring in equines is in its infancy. Even were the horse being very closely monitored it would not have been a predictable event.

And yes, horses do just collapse and die from heart attacks. At my own barn a woman was hand walking her horse and it keeled over dead. Hand walking. The horse was fit, well take care of and showed no prior signs of heart disease.

So let's take this as what it is - a tragedy. It was not a predictable event and everything possible was done to prevent this from happening. Of course the horse was receiving the best in vet care in the world, he was the number one ranked show jumper in the world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buckcherry

I didn't say that the owners don't have their horses vet checked 
I was asking if they do make sure their horses are in perfect health before competing. 
Because I think that taking the time to do a quick vet check before competing could possibly prevent some injuries/deaths. Thats what I was saying

I know the horses are well taken care of because they are investments for their owners and they are going to protect their investments. I get all of that, but sometimes I feel as though they care more about the money they are making than they care about the horse. 

I can't help but wonder if they are more sad about losing a wonderful horse or more sad about losing out on all the breeding and winnings he would have brought in. Because there are a lot of people in the competing world that think that way. I'm not saying his owners are like that but I do wonder. 

Sometimes I get a little bend out of shape because I care so much about animals and hate to see things like this happen, and can't help but wonder if it could have been prevented. 

And I know riding "isn't natural" either and yes I ride my horses. I wasn't saying we shouldn't ride horses I am not one of "those peopel" I was saying that If you are competing horses you should give them the best veterinary care you can find so to prolong your horses health/life.


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## Golden Horse

Buckcherry said:


> I know the horses are well taken care of because they are investments for their owners and they are going to protect their investments. I get all of that, but sometimes I feel as though they care more about the money they are making than they care about the horse.


These days the actual owner of the horse is many steps removed from it's day to day care, I don't know enough about Eric and Hickstead to comment, but I was listening to a recorded interview with him over the weekend, before the tragedy, where he was saying that he hoped to jump Hickstead at the 2012 games, but he would have to listen to the horse, who would tell him if he was fit enough.

The riders who compete on these horses, and especially their grooms who look after them daily care for these horses, they are not investments to them in most cases, but partners.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Sorry, but you seriously just contradicted yourself there. You're not saying that the owners don't have their horses vet checked, but you wonder if they make sure the horse is in perfect health before competing. Those are one-in-the-same. Vet checking means they are making sure the horse is in perfect health before competing (or, more accurately, as perfect health as can be determined). Making sure the horse is in perfect health before competing requires vet checking. *scratches head*

I would be willing to bet that all involved with Hickstead are devastated at losing such a brilliant horse, nevermind the money. It is almost inevitable that a bond develops between the horse and the humans who interact with him on a daily basis. How much would you want to bet that Hickstead's groom(s) cried themselves to sleep that night? I don't even want to imagine how poor Eric Lamaze is feeling right now. After watching the Hickstead tribute video posted in the other thread and seeing how much Eric Lamaze trusted Hickstead and *knew* that it was Hickstead winning all those medals, not Eric, I would find it impossible to believe that he is not grieving as much over the loss of Hickstead as he would over the loss of a human family member.


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## Buckcherry

OK let me break it down for you. I asked if they have their horses vet checked before competing. I'm asking a question that I don't know the answer to.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Drafty, every day. There is a vet looking at those horses every day. If its raining, sun shining, at a competition or at home the same vet is looking at the horse every day. Those horses are receiving better care than many people can even fathom. The issue is a lack of technology. All vets have for heart health is really a stethoscope...
Also, Eric would have known if something was wrong. He knee that horse better than anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

In eventing, the horses have to pass several vet checks to be allowed to continue in the competition. The vet check after XC is very comprehensive and if the horse isn't in the peak of fitness and health, no way they will pass.


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## Buckcherry

Thank you AF, thats what I was asking I did not know that.


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## Jake and Dai

I was just taking a break from work and suddenly realized that I had a 'backyard nag' that might have had a heart attack.

He was my first horse. I got him when he was approx. 16 and he died one night when he was approx. 24. My husband at the time when out to feed in the morning and came back in the house to say he was lying dead in the paddock.

If I recall correctly, he showed no symptoms. Did I have full vet checks every year? No. The vet came out, gave shots and gave him the once over but that was the extent of his exam because Pappy seemed fine. Could I have prevented it? Possibly. I'll never know and also never know how he died. I did not have a necropsy done on him.

And at the time of his passing, he was simply a pasture puff, in good weight, with good teeth and feet. But I'll never know what was going on inside of him because nothing showed on the outside.


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## VelvetsAB

_Regarding the hack-a-bit...._

_We have a horse in our barn that goes in one. He is mouth sensitive, and doesn't like pressure in his mouth (if you were trying to rate him going into a jump) and becomes pretty upset. So, he was put in a hack-a-bit. The hack controls speed, while the bit is used for turning. Yes, it still does cause some pressure, but the horse is much more argreeable and manageable on course in it. It looks ugly as hell, but thats what works on him._

_****This is how I understood the explanation that was given to me on how it worked. It may not be 100% accurate, but is MY interpretation of it***_

_I would assume, and could very possibly be wrong, that Hickstead went in the hack-a-bit for the same sort of reason. And again, it may look ugly as hell, but if thats what works for the horse...then thats what you go with. _

_I don't know about any of you, but I am definitely not going to go tell Mr. Lamaze or the Torrey Pines Stable that they shouldn't use that bit on a horse...because really...I am sure they know what they are doing._


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## Jake and Dai

Thanks for that explanation Velvets. I was wondering as well in a completely-non-critical-totally-curious way what that combo was called and how it worked. Neat!


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## maura

Couple of points -

Allison talked about the vetting procedure for combined training, but not for show jumping. I'm not sure exactly what the procedure is for show jumping at the international , but do remember there was a big controversy at an FEI event recently because the ground jury would not let McLain Ward and Sapphire compete. Sapphire wasn't lame, or in any way unhealthy, but she was fussy, uncooperative and "hypersenstive" when they attempted to examine her and ultrasound her legs, so the ground jury wouldn't let her proceed in the competion. There was a huge uproar and an investigation over the ground jury's decision. 

So there's already a system in place whereby you can exclude a horse from competition with very little evidence of a problem. I think it's highly unlikely that there's a level of veterinary scrutiny that would have prevented this tragedy. 

Also, this horse has very, very well known and popular jumping bloodlines, and is from a long line of performance horses on both sides of his pedigree. If the horse had a a congenital heart problem, it would show up somewhere in else by now. 

As hard as it is to accept, it may well be that this horrible freak accident is just a horrible freak accident, and that no amount of care or diligence could have prevented it.


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## bubba13

kitten_Val said:


> True. All horses (24 of them) at GP last week were from 10 to 14 years old.


That is an "aged" horse, yes, but by no means an ancient one. For a domestic horse with good health care and conditioning, that should really be the prime of life.



maura said:


> I don't have any facts or figures, but based on my memory of news reports, deaths while performing are more common in show jumpers than other discipline except racing.


Is no one concerned about this, or researching the "hows" and "whys" of the phenomenon? And by racing deaths, are we largely talking about catastrophic leg injuries that lead to euthanasia, or something else? I'd be interested to read the stats, if you can find them.



> There are a couple of factros that contribute; first, they are incredibly fit athletes. If they have any kind of cardiovascular problem or weakness, show jumping is going to aggravate it.


I believe that. But how common, really, are such medical issues? And if they are occuring in a particular breed or line, why are we not selecting _against_ these weak traits to prevent further tragedy? And why are we not testing for these things before the fact? Many weaknesses are detectable with a veterinary exam. They have very strict requirements for endurance horses, for example. Why is this equally-strenuous event not treated in the same manner?



> If a horse had a small aneurism, he could live a long healthy life in another discipline. Go look at some GP video - a horse making a big effort over a large spread fence is likely to rupture that aneurism, break blood vessels or otherwise aggravate any other underlying structural weakness.


Again--perhaps preventative testing would go a long way.



> I don't know for sure that it's a factor, but if you follow Hickstead's career, he had a lot of frequent flyer miles. He was in Hong Kong for the Olympics, and this show was in Verona, Italy. International travel in general and flying in particular is incredibly stressful on horses.


And if this is found to be a factor, then it is inexcusable and quite frankly animal abuse. The horse loved his job and was very talented, sure, but everyone knows that this is an unnatural, extremely stressful lifestyle for a horse. No good for the welfare of the _animal _(as opposed to the _athlete_).



> As far as the hackamore/bit combo, I have seen it before in jumpers. The idea is pretty staightforward - you have two ways of influencing the horse's way of going instead of one. Looks like he has a modified bit converter on there, so he's always exerting some pressure on the hack and some on the bit.


Yep, and he had the whole thing rigged through a running martingale. My concern is that the hackamore is getting hung up on the bit and all the various leather straps. I'm not sure it's doing the job it was intended to do, due to the glut of hardware on the face.



> I have never ridden a horse in this setup; so I can't speak more directly to it than that. Jumpers can be hot and jumper riders tend to work their way through a tack catalog as a horse's career progresses. Hickstead certainly appears to be "up" and very forward in the ring if you watch him perform.
> 
> The proof is in the pudding - the horse clearly likes his job, and jumps classically correctly, round and with a relaxed and extended head and neck. And while he's very forward, he doesn't appear to be resisting or fighting his rider down to his fences. So while I'm not going to recommend this equipment to a Pony Clubber, I am loathe to criticize a world class rider using it on a very talented horse with great success.


I won't criticize too hard, either, but the appearance really caught me off guard. I just find it ironic, when so often people from the English disciplines are scoffing at Western riders for their usage of mechanical hackamores, curb bits, martingales, etc.



thesilverspear said:


> I have known of a few horses -- far from Hickstead's level of performance -- who have died of heart attacks or aneurisms. These were amateur, low level competition horses, but all were also thoroughbreds. I hazily remember reading something somewhere about a genetic defect, found especially in TBs, which predisposes them to specifically aortic aneurisms. Has anyone else heard of this? Am I remembering this right?


I think I've heard that, too, but don't know the specifics. I'd be interested in seeing the study again.



Allison Finch said:


> I saw a QH die the same way in a warm-up ring. I'm not sure the TB link would apply, here. As for the deaths, horses competing at the top of the game, especially in such a demanding sport of as showjumping and putting extreme demands on themselves. And, to get to these levels they have a long history of training and experience, so most are no spring chickens.
> 
> Think of the human athletes who die in similar circumstances. It is not uncommon to see the same collapses among the human sports, although most human athletes are on the younger side.


I've seen a few on medical shows--kids collapsing during high school games. I would think that's a different phenomenon than a world-class athlete. Underlying weakness and all. You say it's "not uncommon"--but really, how often does it happen?



> I think it would be ridiculous to say horses shouldn't be asked to jump, as I see this is the direction Bubba seems to be going.


Really? News to me.



> Once that theory pops up, all disciplines can be opened to the same scrutiny.


Yep. 



> Just because we haven't been shown live telecasts of reining horses collapsing may be more a factor of the popularity of televising this sport than whether or not similar incidents happen.


These events are under a lot of public scutiny--look at the Swedish (?) "reining abuse" scandal a few months ago. And cutting is very popular and televised. If horses were dropping like flies in these events, it would be public knowledge, and there would be outcry.



> Horses keel over doing all types of sports or simply die in a pasture. Horses putting such passion in their work, as showjumpers do, will definitely be more prone to the effects of congenital weaknesses than a horse standing around doing little.


You and several other posters mentioned seeing _multiple_ horses die in this manner. You can't attribute that to the same thing as freak pasture deaths. It's statistically significant, and there's obviously more at play here.



> A horse at these levels LOVES what they do. Several horses I have worked with at this level would free jump any jumps set up in a ring if I turned them out to frolic in a ring with courses set up.
> 
> So, Bubba, do you think that no horses have ever collapsed running barrels, a passion of yours?


Really?

Tell you what. I've seen thousands of barrel runs and watched numerous rodeos. I've seen phenomenal barrel athletes at the top of their game and I've seen rinky-dink shodeos. I've seen horses run from age three to age 30. I've seen horses run beyond the limits of sensibility, over and over again, until they were exhausted. But nope, I've never seen or heard of one keeling over dead. Now statistically speaking, probably somewhere, somehow, one has.....I do know of a local woman who died of a heart attack rounding the third barrel and fell face down in the dirt while her horse ran home, so does that count? :shock:

In fact, in over a decade of running barrels, I knew exactly two horses who died of the sport. One was a very famous horse, the barrel racing equivalent of Hickstead. He took off in the alley and shattered his hind leg--had to be destroyed, obviously. And a local girl's nice little horse broke his front leg in a freak mis-step on the way to the second barrel and was euth'd on the spot.

Obviously barrel racing is hard on horses, but it's from an injury standpoint. They get arthritis, navicular, soft tissue problems. I quit the sport due to the wear and tear on horses, which I felt couldn't be justified. But no, barrel horses most certainly are not falling over from heart attacks, or whatever, on a regular basis.



Allison Finch said:


> You may ask....Well, how do YOU know he loved it?" If you ever saw the horse, you wouldn't ask this question. The few who have ridden him (a member of another forum is one of the few who did ride him, though many were offered the opportunity, will tell you how much he lived to jump.


And that's how my gray mare was with barrels. Ran herself lame. I guarantee you I could pull her out of the pasture, three-legged, haul her to a barrel race, and she'd run her heart out. Either win or die trying. She'd snap her leg right in two if it came to that....so I just had to take away the opportunity. Even out in the pasture she'll run herself until she's sore. She doesn't understand the concept of taking it easy. That's _heart_ in a horse. And that's why sometimes we have to use our alleged superior intelligence and make the decision to quit for them.



Buckcherry said:


> I have a question, Do these owner think to have these horses checked for any medical problems before each competition. I would think and hope that being a responsible horse owner they would and hopefully if it was something evident that this could have been prevented.


I agree. I'm sure there are vets on grounds, and I'm sure that the owners/riders take many precautions to ensure the horses' safety, but why are there not mandatory physical and fitness exams?



kevinshorses said:


> In most people they don't have many symptoms before a heartattack so I would imagine that it would be much harder in a horse. I am sure that a horse like the one that died yesterday have the very best medical care available to any animal (humans included). The owners of the horse lost hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions when that horse tipped over in the ring. People that own horses like that don't only view them as investments and they would do the best for the horse regardless but nobody in thier right mind would risk a horse that could have made millions as a sire if they had to retire him early.


I am _by no means_ suggesting a conspiracy theory. What happened was clearly a sad accident. But I also know that that horse was very well-insured, and there will be plenty of monetary compensation to make up for that end of his loss.


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## maura

> but why are there not mandatory physical and fitness exams?


There are. 

Please read my post above, where I talked about the McClain Ward/Sapphire scandal. Google that if you're interested, because frankly I don't know about how mandatory vet checks really work at the international levels. 

I do also know that there's a very thorough vetting procedure before US horses compete internationally, I can't imagine Canada is that different. Considering that this horse shipped to Hong Kong for the Beijing Olympics, and has competed at the WEG and the Pan American Games, I would guess that he was one of the most thoroughly scruntinized equine athletes in the world. 

I understand no horseman wants to look at this event and shrug and say "It happens." And it's human nature to look back and to try and see how a tragedy was preventable. However, there is absolutely no evidence that this is anything but a tragic accident.


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## bubba13

I see that there were additional replies stating that vet tests before competition are mandatory. Good. And that the issue is a technogical one. That may be the case, but I sure hope they are doing research. Cardiac arrhythmia, I know, can be detected with a stethoscope. Other conditions may not.

And yes, I am perfectly willing to accept that the case of Hickstead may just have been a random tragedy, unpreventable, etc. 

But at the same time, the anecdotal posts by other members and the suggestion of an increased death rate in showjumping by Maura tell me that something is definitely up. People are up in arms about racehorse breakdowns. They are up in arms about cross country / steeplechase falls and deaths. Why are they not equally up in arms about showjumping collapses, since even devotees of the sport admit its increased death risk? Why is no one working to minimize the risk, such as by doing genetic testing to look for cardiovascular defects in jumping bloodlines, or looking for incidences of deaths when compared to course conditions or jump height, or lessening some of the physical toll by having shorter courses or less strenuous jumps, or having shorter seasons so that horses are not constantly stressed from travel? Is no research on these factors being done?


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## maura

Because you can't launch that kind of research based on anecdotal evidence. 

And that's what we have. Anecdotal evidence. And since the only other anecdote I have is Richard Spooner from the 80's, I suspect the incidence rate is quite low, just that when it happens, it's sticks in people's minds. 

And yes, racehorses have died from heart attack and stroke, related to exertion, but the deaths related to horrific on track break downs get more notice and more ink.


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## bubba13

I can't find the posts now, but I think Allison said that she had seen three horses die that way. And someone else said that they had seen two. To me, that's not exactly a rarity....


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## maura

Still anecdotal.


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## kevinshorses

In our culture today there seems a tendency to try to live forever. None of us are getting out of this life alive. Sopmetimes in trying to extend our lives we forget to LIVE. No horse is going to live forever even with the best of care so if we keep the horse comfortable and healthy for the time it has then we as horsemen have done our job.


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## bubba13

I am not sure how that precludes research from being launched. Compare it to all the racehorse breakdown research they're doing now, with track surfaces, age of horse, length of course, etc. You have to start somewhere.

Surely they have necropsy reports, bloodlines, genetic tests on relatives, career history, course descriptions, and so on to begin with. Why not start hooking electrodes up to horses and running the courses, monitoring the results? Is anyone doing this?


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## kevinshorses

I would bet that Allison has seen and riden thousands of horses in her carreer and she has seen three colapse and die suddenly. I'd say that's pretty rare.


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## bubba13

kevinshorses said:


> In our culture today there seems a tendency to try to live forever. None of us are getting out of this life alive. Sopmetimes in trying to extend our lives we forget to LIVE. No horse is going to live forever even with the best of care so if we keep the horse comfortable and healthy for the time it has then we as horsemen have done our job.


Kevin, I don't think we're doing our job if our horses are dying in the line of duty, of something that may have been preventable, if we are pushing them beyond what they are physically capable of achieving.

These things may_ not_ be preventable, in the end, but how do we know unless we try to find out?


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## franknbeans

[_QUOTE=Buckcherry;1225318]This is not as simple as going for a jog or going bowling this it hard competition which horses were not really made for. Yes certain breeds excell at the sport but jumping is not a natural thing for horses. Just like racing long distances and starting them at the age of 2 isn't nautral. People need to consider the horses health over all, especially if they want their horse to live a long and happy life. _

_Its not just about winning money and competing, owners and riders need to take into consideration their horse health and it should be a bigger issue than it is. And yes if I competed my horse that seriously I would have him vet checked before and after each show. I think a responsible horse owner should, if they cared more about their horse and less about how much money they are winning. ......"_


I am sorry, I have not read the entire thread, but you, my dear are a bit naive. Have you never heard of people dropping dead after entire physicals including cardiac workups? Do you really think is would be realistic to do total vet checks prior to every show, and really think that is some sort of majic wand that would avoid this? I am not even sure they have the technology with animals they have with people, and it is not avoidable with us, now is it? Where would you draw the line? Cardiac catheterization prior to each competition? Not very realistic, now is it. Not even a horsey EKG is. 

I think you are a but "pie in the sky". SOmetimes stuff just happens. It cannot be foreseen. Like the high school athlete who drops dead at the basketball game, the marathoner who has a heart attack during the race....same sort of thing. You cannot avoid it all, sorry.

Think about what you are really saying. A vet listening to a horses heart and breath sounds doesn't give them some crystal ball as to what MIGHT happen.

My issue is, if I had a foal from this horse I would be concerned. Truly concerned that it might be something hereditary and there is nothing they could really do or say that would allay my fears. Sorry. Personally, even tho I have nothing to do with the jumper world, I would never consider breeding to this guy......I think that is a bit shortsighted and selfish. JMHO.

THis was a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to all who knew and loved this horse. He was truly incredible.


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## kevinshorses

They aren't dragging a horse out of every event. While I don't know for a fact that research is being done you don't know that it isn't either. I really don't think it's needed.


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> Kevin, I don't think we're doing our job if our horses are dying in the line of duty, of something that may have been preventable, if we are pushing them beyond what they are physically capable of achieving.


I think if it would be something very common it would be spread all over the Internet. Things happen. You can't tell "this horse will collapse" or "this one will stay healthy". Just never know. I'm not positive one can push horse "too far" while the horse is still enjoying it.


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## ponyboy

Buckcherry said:


> TYes certain breeds excell at the sport but jumping is not a natural thing for horses.


Tell that to the Connemara ponies who survived in the wild in Ireland for so long. I've seen those hills laced with stone fences - there's a ton of them and they ain't small. 

We don't know for sure yet that it was a heart attack. It could have been an aneurism or a blood clot from flying - I have heard of apparently healthy people under age 30 dying from both. Or, I hate to say it, foul play. We have to wait and see.


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## SarahAnn

VelvetsAB said:


> _Regarding the hack-a-bit...._
> _I would assume, and could very possibly be wrong, that Hickstead went in the hack-a-bit for the same sort of reason. And again, it may look ugly as hell, but if thats what works for the horse...then thats what you go with. _
> 
> _I don't know about any of you, but I am definitely not going to go tell Mr. Lamaze or the Torrey Pines Stable that they shouldn't use that bit on a horse...because really...I am sure they know what they are doing._


Love this. I think its safe to assume that they know what they're doing! This made me chuckle a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

When people compete hard, they sometimes die. Plenty of runners have had heart attacks while running. I have never been a competitive runner, but I've pushed myself to the point I had to stop and find a tiny bit of shade in the desert and wait for the pounding in my chest to slow.

Horses also are competitive. They can and will push themselves very hard. I doubt any horse is a champion at racing, steeplechase, jumping, etc unless the horse WANTS to win. You cannot beat a horse into giving its best, and nothing less than the best will win at the top levels.

Barrel racing is an anaerobic sport. In humans, even the mile run is primarily an anaerobic event. Anaerobic events do not tax the heart the way aerobic ones do. There isn't time for the heart to adapt to the stress and fully engage. The human body doesn't ramp up fully in 15 seconds, and I doubt horses do either.

Depending on the cause, it may not take a full ramp up by the heart for death to occur, but it seems more likely when the heart is operating at or near maximum capacity. It seems plausible that barrel racing would be less likely to cause a horse heart failure than longer duration efforts.

All of which is speculation. I'm sure the subject has been studied in humans, but I'm to lazy right now to try to find out what they found.


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## Northern

Well, all bubba's talking about is research & preventative medicine, such as is being done in the wake of the race horse disasters. Why shouldn't that extend to jumpers?

This isn't to say that all sudden deaths of horse athletes will be eliminated, if scientists just work hard enough. Yet, it makes sense all around to try to prevent these sudden deaths on the field, just as the original purpose of dressage training was to render the horse fit for a long life of service.


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## sarahver

So incredibly sad, this story truly brings a tear to my eye and I know I am not the only one around the world truly heartbroken to see such a wonderful athlete die suddenly. 

In regards to some of the previous comments, this is not directed at anyone in particular but I feel the need to comment. There seems to be the feeling (in many areas of life) that as soon as money, fame or success is involved, these accolades are mutually excusive from human emotion. This is not always the case.

I really think that Hickstead was loved and valued greatly by those close to him and he wasn't just a money spinner. I also believe that if those close to him had any inkling that there was a chance that something of this magnitude would happen, they would have taken action to prevent it. Not because they were worried about losing money, but because when you work with a horse that closely, day in, day out, they are your _partner_. Whether you are competing at the Olympics or working on a ranch it becomes a partnership.

In regards to the research, Bubba this is kinda directed towards you in response to your initial question, I think the problem lies within sampling, rather than a reluctance to actually _perform_ the research.

1.) It is relatively easy to analyse samples of racehorses because they are all of the same breed, it is easy to select data from the same area/track/surface/age, the training regimens are similar, they are started at similar ages and most importantly; there are multitudes of the little tackers.

2.) Trying to analyse samples of world class showjumpers is more problematic; you can't control for breed, international travel, age, training regimens etc and there's just not that many competing at that level.

3.) Getting data for a reference sample would be a nightmare - which breeds do you choose? From which countries? If a horse drops dead in the pasture, how often is the cause of death determined? Determining the base rate for congenital heart failure (or anything else for that matter) will be inherently flawed because so many deaths are not reported, nor a cause determined.

I guess my opinion is that research is not being done because it would be nigh impossible to come up with an experimental design that would be of any merit. 

Could it be done? Perhaps. But my goodness the research parameters would have to be stringent, the sample sizes large and I think it would be difficult to generate funding given the *overall* low fatality rate.


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## bubba13

sarahver said:


> In regards to the research, Bubba this is kinda directed towards you in response to your initial question, I think the problem lies within sampling, rather than a reluctance to actually _perform_ the research.


I getcha. Controlled research would be a bear. You'd have to start with a retrospective study, assuming the data is available. And yes, it would be somewhat anecdotal. But if the incidences are as frequent as people have suggested (and I don't know the actual numbers at all; I didn't even know how "risky" showjumping was until yesterday), you might get something statistically viable. 



> 1.) It is relatively easy to analyse samples of racehorses because they are all of the same breed, it is easy to select data from the same area/track/surface/age, the training regimens are similar, they are started at similar ages and most importantly; there are multitudes of the little tackers.


I'm well out of the jumping loop, I know, but are there no related lines or such that could control this somewhat, or is it largely random? Still, using necropsy results, vet exams, and genetic tests (and yes, this would be an exhausting effort), I think you could eventually come up with some tying factors.



> 2.) Trying to analyse samples of world class showjumpers is more problematic; you can't control for breed, international travel, age, training regimens etc.
> 
> 3.) Getting data for a reference sample would be a nightmare - which breeds do you choose? From which countries? If a horse drops dead in the pasture, how often is the cause of death determined? Determining the base rate for congenital heart failure (or anything else for that matter) will be inherently flawed because so many deaths are reported or a cause determined.


I dunno. I would *guess* that some veterinary universities would have compiled some data here. But I'd still argue that dropping dead in the pasture is a different phenomenon that dropping dead after strenuous exercise. Do you agree? Don't you think that Hickstead would have been perfectly fine that day had he not jumped the course, or do you think it was just terrible timing?



> I guess my opinion is that research is not being done because it would be nigh impossible to come up with an experimental design that would be of any merit.


I'd just like to start with electrode monitoring during runs!



> Could it be done? Perhaps. But my goodness the research parameters would have to be stringent, the sample sizes large and I think it would be difficult to generate funding given the *overall* low fatality rate.


That's why I'd really like to know the actual fatality stats. Does anyone have them?


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## maura

No, no one has the actual fatality stats because of the same limitations that Sarah is talking about above. 

Are you going to limit this to FEI competition? Just the United States or North America or all the countries that participate in FEI show jumping? That's a pretty small, elite group. Are you going to include Open/Modified or A/O Jumpers or just Gran Prix? Just deaths that occur while competing, or deaths during strenuous exercise? What resources are you going to use to track this? There's no requirement saying that you must report a death during competition to a governing body, so it's not like you can ask the FEI or the USEF or USET to provide you with a report like the OHSA form 300. You'd have to gather data by relying on newspaper accounts, COTH reporting and oh, yeah, anecdotal evidence. 

Then it's complicated further that if you're looking for a congenital problem - there is no one breed of horse that competes; lots of crosses that do compete, and no requirement that you report exactly what the horse's breeding is before you compete it. (A Canadian rider had a grade horse with a big, common head that was actually a very successful jumper. ETA fun trivia - that horse was Cagney, the horse Eric Lamaze made his early reputation on. His retirement ceremony at Spruce Meadows made me cry.) So it would be nearly impossible to slice and dice the data by breed factors.

I'm not saying it's not worthy of investigation; or that the research couldn't be done - it would just be very, very difficult. And I don't really have any sense of the size or scope of the problem.


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## MudPaint

Racehorses and Jumpers are typically very exciteable horses. When they get into their zone, that heart pounds away. Generally the conditioning, breeding and training help minimize the risk of injury.... but they are their own creature and as such as just a hair out of our control. Should they get overly excited or push themselves beyond their capabilities, yes a heart attack or aneurism is possible... just as it is with a person. And just like people there may be underlying factors that couldn't be detected till after the accident. A friend of mine, someone who ran marathons, suffered an aneurism at age 23... this is a person in fit condition, healthy in all aspects, and no hereditary indicators. The doctors noted there was no way to have detected it prior and she was lucky to survive. 

As for changes... There have been many. On the track, the current attempt at saving the horse's legs is a synthetic track amongst other safety precautions. The same can be said for show jumping and other strenuous events. Every year there is newer/better footing, new vet procedures, medical pasties to help a horse breath more efficiently, etc... to the point I can't keep up. 

Hickstead was an amazing horse. I feel honored to have seen him jump several times in person. He rivals other greats like Gem Twist. 

The question on breeding out the weakness.... I think most breeders looking to truly produce a world class horse would weigh into their consideration a line that was known to produce horses that had heart issues. It would be like any other soundness... why continue to breed it? Much like the HYPP syndrome that curses quarter horses... the smart breeders are staying away from it... unfortunately we aren't all smart.


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## bubba13

maura said:


> No, no one has the actual fatality stats because of the same limitations that Sarah is talking about above.
> 
> Are you going to limit this to FEI competition? Just the United States or North America or all the countries that participate in FEI show jumping? That's a pretty small, elite group. Are you going to include Open/Modified or A/O Jumpers or just Gran Prix? Just deaths that occur while competing, or deaths during strenuous exercise? What resources are you going to use to track this? There's no requirement saying that you must report a death during competition to a governing body, so it's not like you can ask the FEI or the USEF or USET to provide you with a report like the OHSA form 300. You'd have to gather data by relying on newspaper accounts, COTH reporting and oh, yeah, anecdotal evidence.
> 
> Then it's complicated further that if you're looking for a congenital problem - there is no one breed of horse that competes; lots of crosses that do compete, and no requirement that you report exactly what the horse's breeding is before you compete it. (A Canadian rider had a grade horse with a big, common head that was actually a very successful jumper.) So it would be nearly impossible to slice and dice the data by breed factors.


I'm just going based off of what you yourself said:

*I don't have any facts or figures, but based on my memory of news reports, deaths while performing are more common in show jumpers than any other discipline except racing. *

Are you not implying, then, that you read published results of some sort, somewhere?


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## upnover

Oh my gosh... do you realize that these top competition horses are worth MILLIONS?? That they have the absolute best veterinary care that the world has to offer? The best quality feed and supplements that have been formulated to their individual needs? That he was as fit as horses get? Owners of horses like these don't scrimp or cut corners. Whoever said his health is probably the most scrutinized in the world of horses is right. He was better taken care of then most people in the world. 

Could something like this have been prevented? Who knows. But what we do know is that this horse was 15 and a horse at this level has flown overseas more often then most people on this forum and has spent more way time living at shows then he does at home. My guess is that if he was going to break down he would have broken down already. Sometimes tragedies just happen.

And FWIW... I've been in the show industry a while and *never* seen or heard of a horse just falling down dead at a show. Not saying it never happens, but it's not like it's that commonplace amongst jumpers. However, when talking to a medic at a show, I was informed that he had seen a few at barrel races. Usually from people who drag their fat unfit horses from their backyard and run them as fast they can with no warmup. Although, not exactly what happened with Hickstead...


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## sarahver

bubba13 said:


> I getcha. Controlled research would be a bear. You'd have to start with a retrospective study, assuming the data is available. And yes, it would be somewhat anecdotal. But if the incidences are as frequent as people have suggested (and I don't know the actual numbers at all; I didn't even know how "risky" showjumping was until yesterday), you might get something statistically viable.


Statistically viable is in the eye of the beholder :wink: 

I suppose the golden rule for sampling is between 30 and 300 but if you took a random sample of 30 top level show jumpers I don't think you would find many deaths. Likewise, if you could find a comparable sample of 300 you would be hard pressed to control for other variables such as age.



bubba13 said:


> But I'd still argue that dropping dead in the pasture is a different phenomenon that dropping dead after strenuous exercise. Do you agree? Don't you think that Hickstead would have been perfectly fine that day had he not jumped the course, or do you think it was just terrible timing?
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I do agree, however how do you construct your baseline? As for Hickstead being fine if he hadn't have jumped, I truly don't know. I doubt it was that particular round ALONE that solely caused a heart attack (if that's what it was) and *if* it was environmental stress caused by his competitive lifestyle one could argue that it was a cumulative effect. So he may have passed in his stall or playing in the field and it wouldn't have made a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> bubba13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm well out of the jumping loop, I know, but are there no related lines or such that could control this somewhat, or is it largely random? Still, using necropsy results, vet exams, and genetic tests (and yes, this would be an exhausting effort), I think you could eventually come up with some tying factors.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you could analyse related lines but a _line_ is closely related enough that congenital defects could be related to breeding alone, not environmental stresses. It would become a chicken or egg problem. If it was a single breed (many lines) being compared you could have better chance of ruling out genetic defect and making conclusions based on the sport itself.
> 
> In this case, the research question would be "Would Hickstead have died if he _wasn't_ a top level international showjumper?" You would need a statistically significant sample of comparable horses, of similar breeding (but not too closely related) both competing and non-competing in order to develop a conclusion that it was either the showjumping that caused his death, or it wasn't.
> 
> 
> I completely understand your sentiment and I too hope that some answers can come out of this as I would never wish that fate on ANY horse, whether it is someone's best mate hanging out in the pasure or an international superstar. However attributing his death to his lifestyle will be difficult.
Click to expand...


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## maura

More common than in other disciplines except racing, yup. That's what I said. 

I've never heard of a show hunter or a cutting horse dying during competetion. 

I've heard of one event horse (Might Tango, back in the late 70s) that collapsed from exhaustion at the end of XC, none that have died from exercise induced stress. 

But there's a good reason I didn't quantify that statement - it's because I can't. Other than this dreadful incident, I remember Richard Spooner had a horse die in competition. (I now think that it was in the 90s, I said 80s earlier.) So that's two that I recall specific details of, and I have heard of others, but have no details. 

I can't extrapolate form 40 years of horse show gossip and two specific incidents to a statistically viable number.


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## MIEventer

upnover said:


> Oh my gosh... do you realize that these top competition horses are worth MILLIONS?? That they have the absolute best veterinary care that the world has to offer? The best quality feed and supplements that have been formulated to their individual needs? That he was as fit as horses get? Owners of horses like these don't scrimp or cut corners. Whoever said his health is probably the most scrutinized in the world of horses is right. He was better taken care of then most people in the world.
> 
> Could something like this have been prevented? Who knows. But what we do know is that this horse was 15 and a horse at this level has flown overseas more often then most people on this forum and has spent more way time living at shows then he does at home. My guess is that if he was going to break down he would have broken down already. Sometimes tragedies just happen.
> 
> And FWIW... I've been in the show industry a while and *never* seen or heard of a horse just falling down dead at a show. Not saying it never happens, but it's not like it's that commonplace amongst jumpers. However, when talking to a medic at a show, I was informed that he had seen a few at barrel races. Usually from people who drag their fat unfit horses from their backyard and run them as fast they can with no warmup. Although, not exactly what happened with Hickstead...


Well said!


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## Kayty

It happens everywhere, no not common, put possible.
There's been a low level dressage horse drop dead in the arena in my state, lovely horse, owner took fantastic care of it, was only 8 years old and lived 24/7 in the paddock. Anuerism.
A friend from my pony club days had a lovely little mare that she did low level PC eventing on - again, dropped dead underneath her after a short gallop at home.

The stud that bred my yearling had a 2 year old, by an international hanoverian stallion with probably thousands of youngsters to his name. She went out to feed them one morning, and he was dead. Again, aortic anuerism. 

Would Hickstead be dead if he hadn't jumped that round? Well maybe not, but what about the next round he jumped? It could have happened at any time. 
Same thing in humans, my uncle was a healthy, fit and lovely bloke, didn't smoke or drink. One day, he just dropped dead in the kitchen. Turns out a piece of 'gunk' (brain dead today... its been a long day at work! 2 hours to go..) had come loose and block a valve in his heart. No prior warnings what so ever.

These things happen, it's tragic, but it happens. If showjumping and elite horse sports were so dangerous to horses - why aren't we getting horses dropping dead on a regular basis under saddle?


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## upnover

MIEventer said:


> Well said!



Thanks MIE! I think things like this makes people want to point fingers but sometimes there's nothing to point at... if there was something that was preventable I really think they would have caught it. Like I said, sometimes tragedies happen.


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## sarahver

I would also like to add that just because the question is difficult to answer, doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked. Although I too am retiscent to attribute Hickstead's death to his career, I am just as retiscent to rule that possiblity out _entirely_.

If solid findings are made, and improvements can be made in the future I am all FOR advancement in the interests of the health and well being of horses worldwide, as we all are. I would just need to know that the findings were watertight and unbiased.


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## kitten_Val

upnover said:


> I think things like this makes people want to point fingers but sometimes there's nothing to point at... if there was something that was preventable I really think they would have caught it. Like I said, sometimes tragedies happen.


True. I'm having hard time to believe Eric knowing him so well wouldn't notice horse being off . Heck, I notice my horse is off on ground, I don't even have to get in saddle, I'm sure every owner spending lots of time with the animal is no different. The horse was very well cared, loved, and pampered - there is no even a question on that. I do find it ridiculous when people start to blame the rider or the owners for the death of the horse (which I run into on Internet).


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## Allison Finch

bubba13 said:


> I can't find the posts now, but I think Allison said that she had seen three horses die that way. And someone else said that they had seen two. To me, that's not exactly a rarity....


Bubba, you have to weigh that with the fact that at the time I was involved with high level showing 24/7 (so to speak). The only time I wasn't schooling for shows, traveling to shows and riding in shows, I was sleeping. It was a consumed life of training, travel and show. So I was in a position to see it more than many other people. Only two were at a "high" level show. The other was at a smaller, lower level recognized show.

So, I was involved with horses jumping with tremendous effort. That effort, likely, contributed to the possibility of heart related problems, maybe, But I have seen more people keel over at shows than horses. Is that not important, too?


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## thesilverspear

It seems to me that some people have a hard time accepting that "sh*t happens." It happens to international competition horses and to backyard pets, except in the case of the former it is more likely to make the news. The two horses I knew of who keeled over from heart failure were in the backyard pet category.


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## Allison Finch

Bubba, you have medical training, so you will know that an aortic anuerism is almost impossible to predict. The aortic wall has a weakness. This is not detectable with most medical testing. An animal with a weakness in the aorta can be absolutely the picture of health until the day that the weak wall ruptures and gives way. Is it a genetic trait? A congenital trait? We don't really understand that in humans, much less horses.

Studies are good. In eventing, when XC courses were under pressure to try to cause more faults, courses were getting bigger and scarier. Then, accidents started happening at an increased rate. There was an uproar and change did happen. Courses became trickier, not bigger and harder. Jumps became narrow and uninviting increasing faults by encouraging refusals and runouts. Emphasis in making "frangible" jumps that will give way in the case of a hard contact is improving many of the tougher jumps.

So change does happen when there is a problem. Sadly, obscure health problems like the one that likely caused Hickstead's collapse, will probably slip through the cracks.


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## egrogan

Someone just posted a nice article over on the other Hickstead thread, but I thought a lot of it was relevant here because it got at the question of how often heart-related deaths occur. In summary, not common, but almost all data come from racing horses (TB's and SB's)...not sure what the author means by "equestrian horses" but seems to suggest there's not much research in the show disciplines.

Quoting from the article directly:
"While autopsy results on the horse are pending, a University of Guelph veterinarian believes there’s a likely “smoking gun” behind the horse’s death.

Dr. Peter Physick-Sheard, who has studied the racing heart rates of both thoroughbred and standardbred horses, says many of these animals experience cardiac arrhythmias during the cool-down periods after competition.

In research published last year, Physick-Sheard found that some 16 per cent of trotters and pacers experienced irregular heartbeats in the immediate aftermath of races.

And while the erratic heart rates cause only a few to collapse, the arrhythmias remain potential killers.

“The fact that the arrhythmias occur is a smoking gun,” says Physick-Sheard. “The arrhythmias are occurring at precisely the time that you tend to see a peak in the (occurrence) of death,” he says.

Physick-Sheard says it’s likely equestrian horses would experience similar erratic heartbeat risks after completing show jumping courses.

“We don’t know in show horses, but it’s certainly possible because that’s what we’ve seen in race horses,” he says.

Yet despite their appearances, with slender forelegs supporting such monumental racing and jumping pressures, horses of both stripes are actually extremely tough, Physick-Sheard says.

This is especially true of their hearts, which even with the high, post-race arrhythmia potential, give out on average just once per 2,000 starts in thoroughbreds and once in 20,000 starts on the standardbred side. There is no similar data for equestrian horses, which are under far less regulatory scrutiny than their pari-mutuel counterparts."


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## bubba13

Thank you for that post, egrogan!
Sounds like they may well be on to something, should they choose to pursue it...


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## bubba13

Here's another article: Sudden death of famed show-jumping horse consistent with severe heart stress - The Globe and Mail

One of the comments suggested that simply trotting a horse out gradually would reduce the risk. I wonder if this is the case....


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## amschrader87

I think we are all aware that sometimes "stuff happens" but it doesn't hurt to investigate each case a little to see if there are some similarities. There could be some underline thing that all these cases have in common but we're not seeing it because it doesn't happen frequently enough. 
It can't hurt, especially if it turns out to be something preventable. 
We can chose to learn from each experience or we can chose to ignore it.


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## maura

Interesting. And I'm glad to hear that research is being done into exercise related arrhythmias in racehorses.

But racehorses to showhorses is not exactly an apples to apples comparision. Racehorses are in an aerobic state for most of a race, and their peak workout is both longer and more intense than show jumpers. Also, the strain on a racehorse is primarily cardiovascular and skeletal; show jumpers use more slow twitch muscle to perform their jobs. A fit jumper going around a standard indoor stadium course (Usually less than a minute in duration; longer in at outdoor stadium or derby cours) may not show *any* shortness of breath or sweating, and his heart rate may only rise slightly, but he will have expended incredible muscle energy. 

If I were to make a guess, even a wildass guess, I would say that what happened to Hickstead was a massive heart attack, but that it was related to some sort of underlying defect and was not a exercise induced arrhythmia, because I doubt he raised his heart rate to the point that it would induce arhyhtmia.. Just my guess, but at this point, before the results of the necropsy are released, my guess is as good as anyone else's.


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## amschrader87

This is an interesting quote I found

The horse is a natural blood doper,” director of the Equine Science Center at Rutgers University in New Jersey, Karyn Malinowski, told the New York Times. “When the horse does an athletic event, it will automatically dump tons of red blood cells into the bloodstream,” she said. “It’s what makes the horse a fabulous athlete. And at the same time, because you have an increase, the blood does become thicker, and if the horse was prone to a weakened heart, it could have burst.”

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's Marketplace co-anchor Tom Harrington repo


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## kitten_Val

Well... Thicker blood may lead to stroke anyway - whether the heart is weakened or not. I wonder though if those horses get blood thinner (like aspirin). My guess would be heart attack too, but it very well may be triple A as well (that one has basically no chance to survive).


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## Annnie31

Eric Lamaze just held a press conference in Toronto this am, and has said Hickstead died of an Acute Aortic Rupture. He said his previous days jumping were very normal, he was in excellent health and in fact even his final jump was performed with nothing out of the normal. He was vetted a minimum of 3 times weekly even when he was not being shown so he had the best care possible. 
He also said he is not at the Royal to compete, but to honour Hickstead. Eric believes Hickstead will be considered the best horse in history, and in the world.


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## jinxremoving

Annnie31 said:


> Eric Lamaze just held a press conference in Toronto this am, and has said Hickstead died of an Acute Aortic Rupture. He said his previous days jumping were very normal, he was in excellent health and in fact even his final jump was performed with nothing out of the normal. He was vetted a minimum of 3 times weekly even when he was not being shown so he had the best care possible.
> He also said he is not at the Royal to compete, but to honour Hickstead. Eric believes Hickstead will be considered the best horse in history, and in the world.


The CBC reported that he's thinking of retiring?! 

Emotional Lamaze mulling retirement in wake of horse's death

He can't retire! Look at Ian Miller, up there in his 60's still competing... would be a huge, huge blow to Canadian Show Jumping for Lamaze to retire.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

From watching the video you can tell its not a heart attack, the trainer at the barn I board at and I were talking about it yesterday and we thought it would have had to have been a massive bleed or rupture because of how prolonged the "attack" was.
Nice to know the vet doing the autopsy concluded it was a non predictable event.

Of course Eric is considering retirement, that man has been through so much in his life. Ten times the hardship as Ian millar. He knows that the likelihood of ever having half the horse as Hickstead is nil. Hickstead was his once in a lifetime horse, the horse that pulled him out from addiction and the gutters of the sport. Without that horse he still wouldn't be allowed on half the show grounds in na, including spruce. I would consider retirement as well. He's worked his butt off for everything he's ever gotten, with very few favours, watches others get horses handed to them that they don't even train on a daily basis and go to the shows and win because they have money. He finally was getting the recognition he deserves for his riding and his once in a lifetime horse dies horifically... I'm amazed the guy is still sober!! What a strong man to be taking this basically in stride and if he wants to retire I'm 100% behind him. He owes absolutely nothing to Canadian show jumping as they have done extremely little to support him compared ro other athletes except when he had Hickstead and was doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses

Not to mention that he could write a book about his life and give clinics and lessons and make as much money as he does now.


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## DuffyDuck

I just looked at the video, and had to turn it off.. it completely turned my stomach.. I can't begin to imagine what Eric Lamaze is going through, he lost his one horse, the one, his partner.

No matter what he decides to do, he will be known world wide in clinics, jumping, and as a sportsman. I'm in so much shock I can barely even think about it, poor, poor man.


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## jinxremoving

I mentioned this in another thread, but Lamaze is showing tonight at The Royal (20:00 EST) and you can watch free from anywhere in the world:

Royal Agricultural Winter Fair 2011 Free Access

Schedule of events:

http://royalfair.org/files/rawf_time_schedule-final_20-11_11_0.pdf


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## ponyboy

Oh man did you have to post that? I've got an assignment to do :lol:

I would support Eric's decision to retire too. We don't *need* to win the Olympics again.


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## Jake and Dai

I'm getting sound but no picture!


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## jinxremoving

****! Beth Underhill (CAN) was just taken away on a stretcher, apparently not moving... very scary. No word yet on her condition. Lamaze still to come.


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## kevinshorses

I just watched Ian Miller withdraw from the round after about 20 faults. I think he should quit jumping that white nag and bring him to my house. He'd make a fine cowboy horse.


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## kitten_Val

I sincerely hope Eric will find another heart horse - I just can't imagine him retiring from something he loves and does so well. Miracles happen whether one believe it or not, you never know what is waiting for you around the riverbend.


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## Allison Finch

He did well with his student's horse. Only one fault and he has hardly ridden him. Good show, Eric!


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## kevinshorses

He seems pretty well mounted on the horse he rode today. It may not be a world beater but it's a pretty good horse and it's pretty dang broke unlike some of them.


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## VelvetsAB

Kevin...this will be the third or fourth class that the white horse has been in since last Friday. 

Friday and Saturday night was a two part event I believe, plus tonight, and probably a class on Monday night. I watched the Saturday night class, and the horse had some lovely rounds. 

There will be a few more classes as well to finish out the week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annnie31

Eric loves to compete, he loves they Olympics, and I believe he will find a new horse. I would imagine his phone is ringing off the wall with owners who have prospects for him. We will all have to see.


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## jinxremoving

jinxremoving said:


> ****! Beth Underhill (CAN) was just taken away on a stretcher, apparently not moving... very scary. No word yet on her condition. Lamaze still to come.


Beth Underhill has a concussion but nothing broken; they are going to hold her for another 24 hours in the hospital.


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## Allison Finch

Thanks for her update. I was looking for one and couldn't find it.


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## jinxremoving

Allison Finch said:


> Thanks for her update. I was looking for one and couldn't find it.


Twitter is awesome for these things! 

http://twitter.com/#!/royalhorseshow/status/134674739439480832


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## ClaireDee

The International riders are competing right now.. i should probly be working.. oh well...

Royal Agricultural Winter Fair 2011 Free Access<


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## munschk

I didn't get through all eleven pages so forgive me if I'm repeating.

But if you think all us vets have for cardiac evaluation is a stethoscope, you are sorely mistaken. At the academic hospital were I am completing my veterinary degree, we have far more sophisticated technology.

We routinely do heart ECG in both relaxed and exercising horses which reveals a variety of conditions such as atrial fibrillation, mumours, heart chamber enlargements and even metabolic imbalances. We do ECGs on every horse before surgery as well as when horses come in for cardiac complaints so you can be pretty sure that it would be a standard test for a check-up of a super-athlete. It is not that expensive to do and is incredibly simple to do, you just need the knowledge to interpret the results.

We run ultrasounds of the heart to evaluate chamber size and contraction in multiple modes. We do doppler ultrasound to look for any abnormalities in cardiac blood flow. While we are certainly far behind the medical world when it comes to technology, we are not as outdated as you assume.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amschrader87

Im glad you shedded some light ob that topic. Its good to know that there is some good technology out there and hopefully the owners of big athlete horses are responsible enough to make sure their horses are in good cardiac health before big competitions. Which im sure they do... especially when they see or hear about things like that happening

But I don't think that what he died from could have been diagnosed before it happened as there were no signs. Correct me if im wrong.


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## munschk

He died from an aortic rupture am I right?

I'm not sure if they know the reason behind the rupture - there are many that can damage the integrity of the vessel wall and predispose it to rupture - stressful blood flow, jet lesions, atherosclerosis, an aneurysm - the list goes on. But most of these would be very difficult to diagnose without symptoms. Sometimes aneurysm can be diagnosed on radiographs but it would have to be an excellent quality radiograph and a big aneuryms so the chances are slim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

At an academic hospital, not at the competition. I would think it funny to see anyone fly across the Atlantic to compete with an ECG unit... And as you say, diagnosis of aneurysms even with high quality diagnostic equipment is sketchy at best.
Of course these horses are getting routine evaluations of cardiac health but if they aren't showing symptoms and are as extremely fit as Hickstead was, they aren't going to be trailering the horse to the veterinary college once a week to get an ECG done... often times a stethoscope is all that is used to evaluate the horses hearth health at home on a routine basis (ie after workouts) and an ECG will only be done every once in a while, but still routinely (twice a year maybe). If it ain't broke don't try to fix it mentality. 
Hicksteads death was a freak incident and I honestly don't think, especially after the Lamaze interview, that there is anything more that could have been done for that horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## munschk

Whilst I agree with you that nothing could have been done and it was a freak accident. I must point out that the new ECG machines link to a laptop so they are in fact very small and portable (even one of our older models is a little bigger than an A3 so not out of the realm of possibility to fly with or for a veterinarian to carry with him in his car). 

And most specialised equine veterinarians, at least the ones I know, also have ultrasound machines - routinely used on farms to evaluate tendons etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NothingButSmiles

Man, what happened to Hickstead is upsetting and a freak accident. 
As to some of you who have been wondering if the horses are checked before and after the competition the answer is yes. I know on the "A" circuit, I had a horse competing in the Grand Prix at the end of the week in Atlanta, we were required to have the horseshow vet check his health and everything. I'm not sure if it's like this at all A Shows, but it's like that in Atlanta. 

I know for the American Invitational all the horses are checked thoroughly before and after entering the ring.

Also these things are hard to detect and don't just happen to world class athletes. This happened to me, while I was showing a coming four year old, at a local schooling show. We finished our little 2ft 6 fence hunter course and as we were coming out of the ring he just collapsed with me on top of him. The horse is extremely calm and was acting perfectly normal. The vet had checked him maybe a few days before the show! It was also an at home schooling show so there was no stress due to traveling involved. Turns out that coming four year old had a aortic rupture. 

So it's not unheard of at the local events either people. World Class athletes are vetted a lot!


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