# Treeless - Experiences



## BlueSpark

I know there are quite a few threads on treeless saddles, but I was hoping for a collection of experiences - good and bad - to go off of.

I love my western. I will continue riding in it, and I in no way dislike treed saddles. However, my arab mare is hard to fit. I went through 14 saddles and a professional fitter before finding a saddle that was OK, and now her back has changed again, next spring I plan on getting her in shape, and I don't have anything that fits. Getting a custom saddle for a soon to be 17 year old that has a constantly changing back seem illogical.

I have been anti treeless for a while. Heard they roll, put uneven pressure on the horses back, wear out quickly, etc. I saw a rider with an uncomfortable, out of control horse in a treeless and bitless bridle, and I know someone with a billy cook treeless that cant mount from the ground and its absolutely hideous.

But I've been seeing how many endurance riders use them, I was told to check them out by a professional saddle fitter and my mare being so hard to fit has made me rethink these.

so? the good the bad and the ugly? 

can you mount from the ground?
sore horse?
rider?
do they tend to slide?


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## Saddlebag

If you are balanced side to side, then roll won't be an issue. Because there is not tree to distribute the weight of your legs, it's easier on the horse if you ride with quite a long stirrup. With the treeless the leathers create a narrow band of pressure, same with the girth. You might consider using a breast coller to give you something to grab on steep hills unless there's plenty of mane to grab.


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## jaydee

I read a research article somewhere in the last few weeks that was done using Icelandic horses that concluded treeless saddles were less comfortable for the horse than conventional saddles


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## BugZapper89

Aside from a custom saddle , some horses will do ok with them. I only have experience with the bob Marshall ones and they are a good quality. The cheap brands are trash. You must be a well balanced light rider. We do not allow riders over 150 lbs in our barrel racing training program to use them and they must be a very skilled rider. The max for every day riding is around 185 per the manufacturer


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## Atomicodyssey

Like you I was drawn to treeless for the fact they conform to the horses shape, whatever it may be. I have a TB like Appendix of which I've tried dozens of saddles trying to find the right one. I bought a free form knock off and I feel mostly neutral about the experience, I will share the pros and cons.

The best thing about it was it wasn't fixed and it didn't affect the horses shoulder or the contours of his back. Padding is very important as it creates the channel for spine clearance, there is a string test you can perform where you put a string under neath the pad and saddle along the spine with a knot tied in one end. You should be able to pull it through easily with you in the saddle. It was fairly comfortable, and I felt secure enough. I did not experience rolling but it is a good thing to be a balanced rider treeless or not.

However I've found most of these saddles are not made with a high withered horse in mind. There is a bar in the pommel you can mold to your horses wither but even at the highest it still created pressure. Even with the thick foam panels and a skito pad with inserts the spinal clearance still wasn't ideal. Forget about mounting from the ground. Many people can... But I'm in the majority that can't. You don't realize how much you take remounting for granted until you can't do it anymore. While the saddle itself was comfortable, it makes you feel perched because of all the padding underneath. Also I'm sure this is only because I bought an economy version and the reputable makes wouldn't do this but after one good hour ride the leather began to flake under my leg.

Overall? I feel a high quality one on a more low withered, rounder horse than my narrow TB type would be a far better match. Every saddle of any type has sored a horse before, it's unfair to write something off just because it didn't work for someone else. 

On another note, I've actually read a study done stating that a balanced and light bareback rider creates less pressure points than a treed saddle. As a BB rider you are using your thighs to lift and you are constantly adjusting yourself, whereas a treed saddles pressure points never change. Just something to think about.


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## phantomhorse13

I have had both good and bad experiences with treeless. Like everything related to horses, no single thing works for each horse in every circumstance.

My first dealings with treeless saddles was with Bob Marshall Sports Saddles. Several endurance friends swear by them and my DH rode exclusively in one with the boys. So when I rode one of the boys, I used it.. but for the life of me I couldn't find my balance point. It put me in a horrible chair seat no matter what I did (and I tend to do that anyway, so def don't need any help!). I hated it so much that I bought a friend's Torsion treeless, which suited me much better as it put me in a balanced position. It also meant we could ride both boys at the same time, as there was a saddle for each.

However, I didn't like the muscle pattern that Sultan was developing from the BMSS - he was getting big bulgy muscles between his shoulders and withers, but had a weird hollow behind his withers and poor topline muscling. He was having issues with back soreness and also issues with being girthy. He was also forging like crazy. After some back and forth with the vet, chiro, farrier, and riding him in the Torsion and not having as many issues, the BMSS seemed to be the problem. After Sultan was pulled at a couple rides, my DH was willing to invest in a treed saddle for him.. and like magic, his back and girth issues disappeared and the forging stopped.

Meanwhile, I continued to use the Torsion on George and as my catch-ride saddle. It did fine for 50s, but when we moved George up in distance, we saw girth/back issues about mile 75. In fact, I wound up riding the last 18 miles of that 100 with NO girth on the saddle at all because he was that sensitive. I am convinced his problem was actually back soreness causing him to move weirdly and rub his girth area. We got him a treed saddle and again, the girth issues disappeared (and I was able to finish the next 100 with all my tack on!).

As a note, both treed saddles were bought with the aid of a professional saddle fitter, who not only measured both boys before purchase, but also adjusted the flocking afterwards for the best fit. We still have that saddle fitter come out about every 6 months to evaluate the fit and make adjustments as necessary.

I still use the Torsion as my catch-ride saddle and I am currently using it for Gamer, who is young and fat and her back changes from season to season. 

My take on treeless is really no different than treed.. the saddle (and pad) need to be appropriate for both the horse and the rider. I wouldn't use a treeless saddle without one of the special pads with foam inserts for support and spine clearance (we use Skitos). 

I can mount from the ground using the Torsion or the BMSS (though I always try to mount from something just on principle). Never had issues with slippage (hell, I rode 18 miles of Vermont mountains at a trot with no girth and no breastcollar).. but I suspect the type of pad used would make a world of difference here.


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## tinyliny

Op, maybe you need to consider an English or AP or Dressage saddle? 

I rode briefly in an Ansur. hated, hated, hated it. did I say I hated it? . . I did.


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## 2SCHorses

I have ridden in treeless for a few years now. I will say, when I was starting out, my Barefoot was a very good saddle for my mare and, to a degree, myself. I had some issues with it on our first rides, but I think it was more due to my lesser riding skills. I like to think if something is going wrong, it is most likely me and I can try to fix it. Several years ago, however, I dislocated my hip, and it has never been the same ... and because of this, on longer rides (longer than LD), I absolutely hate my BF. It is because the twist is so wide and I cannot sit in such a wide twist for that many miles. I will say, YES, I stretch - I practice intermediate to advanced yoga six days a week, pre-load Advil at rides, take joint supplements - so I am doing what I can to mitigate the pain and issues, but I just can't overcome it after I hit 30+ miles. It's agonizing. When I got off my horse at a 50, I could hardly walk. Seriously, I needed someone else to do my trot out. If it had been anything longer, I would've had to RO. It was that crippling for me! But it works SO WELL for my mare, which is the real bummer. I did buy a Suber pad to bolster the twist, and it does help, but not enough. I got through another 50 with the Suber pad and was able to hobble the trot out, which was an improvement, but I wholly believe there is a saddle out there that will fit my horse AND allow me to walk at the end of the ride. It doesn't help at all that you could probably serve tea on my mare's back ...

I have bit the bullet and I am doing a trial of a soft tree saddle. Soft tree is a leather tree, so flexible, but still has more twist. I am hoping this will be the meeting in the middle for both me and my horse. It is a Heather Moffett flex panel Fhoenix saddle. Apparently, from reviews, I will either LOVE it or HATE it. Since I can trial it, I thought I would give it a shot before either dropping to LDs forever or getting a new horse. I will let you all know how it works out for us.

But, lack of twist is common in treeless saddles. That's sort of a major issue for me.


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## PSNapier

2SCHorses said:


> I did buy a Suber pad to bolster the twist, and it does help, but not enough.


I'm sure you've probably heard of it before, but have you looked into Heather Moffett's seatbone saver? Heather Moffett Products It's suppose to help add more twist to Barefoot and Barefoot-esque saddles... maybe it plus the suber pad would be enough to give you some relief?

Anyzuse, I've been studying treeless and saddle fitting for last year, but the only hands-on experience I've had so far has been with a Stunni FF style (cheap India-made knockoffs, didn't realize it was that brand because it was sold through another company I had some trust in) and a old Libra Hackabout. The Stunni didn't work... at all... just slipped back and forth. Granted, at this point I hadn't realized you needed a special pad, and the site I bought it from hadn't mentioned it either, but I don't think it would've worked with on either. The Libra... well, it hasn't exactly worked, haha. I'm getting a new pad to try with it, so my opinion might change soon, but at the moment I've found that it slid back and pressed on the withers (even if it didn't slide side to side). I really like the hackabout, but as other people have mentioned I just think it depends on what sort of conformation you and your horse have.


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## darkpony

I have a Bob Marshall Barrel saddle. It took a little bit for me to figure out how to set it up. The proper cinch and pad made all the difference. It is very comfortable to ride in, and I am never sore, however my stirrups hang slightly more back than I would like and in a canter I have to REALLY keep my heals down or it tends to sling me forward a little. My gelding is not really picky, but it doesnt bother him and he has never been sore from it. He has good sweat patterns everytime I ride. I can mount just fine from the ground with no saddle slippage, but it did slide back some with steep hills when I first got it. Like I said, It takes a bit to figure out the setup that works for both you and your horse. Overall I like it, It is nice that it fits more than one of the horses I ride. I have thought of selling it, just because I ride bareback 90% of the time, and it is one of 4 saddles that I own, but I think I may hold onto it for a bit longer and see how it goes.


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## greentree

I ride my endurance horses in a Bob Marshall Sport Saddle. I have had it since 2000. I bought it used, and it was old then. I am NOT a lightweight rider, but have (knock on wood) not had one problem with horse's backs. I did a 75 with it. 

I believe mine has the stirrup hangers set back, so it feels just like my dressage saddles.

The only negative for me is not being able to mount from the ground.


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## Cat

Not all treeless saddles are equal. There is wide variation of saddles. My first one - I can't remember what it was - looked like a barefoot Cheyenne - slid all over the place. Forget mounting from the ground or anything. It was very comfortable for both me and the horses, but security was lacking. And without a crupper, I would easily end up on my haflinger's withers/neck going down steep hills. Liked it for the comfort but hated it for the security issues. Didn't slide as much on horses that weren't mutton withered, but the whole reason I got it was to fit the hard-to-fit haflinger.

I now have a Rebecca Underwood softrider. They are custom made for each person so there can be a couple month wait period and they don't look like normal saddles, but I love mine. My husband got one and he loves his too. They even come with the pads (and breast collar and cantle bag) and you can send in pictures of your horse's back to get the right fit - including high wither. I've had mine on a haflinger, a thoroughbred, and a mustang. My husband has his on a Draft Cross. They fit great, no signs of soreness even after long rides, and nice and secure.

My saddle does not slide. At all. Mount from the ground easily, go up and down steep hills, even a horse unexpectedly bolting sideways and me hanging off the side of the saddle kept it in place. And I love the Oh Sh*t handle.


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## phantomhorse13

Cat said:


> I now have a Rebecca Underwood softrider. They are custom made for each person so there can be a couple month wait period and they don't look like normal saddles, but I love mine.


I have never heard of this brand and just had to google it for info. 

Is the pad attached to the saddle? It says the pommel and cantle rolls are stuffed with padding (versus being wood or something else rigid). Do you find that you can get wither and spine clearance from the saddle? Does the pad have inserts? 

Would love to see a picture of the underside of the saddle and of the pad in general. How long/what distance have you ridden in the saddle?


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## Cat

phantomhorse13 said:


> I have never heard of this brand and just had to google it for info.
> 
> Is the pad attached to the saddle? It says the pommel and cantle rolls are stuffed with padding (versus being wood or something else rigid). Do you find that you can get wither and spine clearance from the saddle? Does the pad have inserts?
> 
> Would love to see a picture of the underside of the saddle and of the pad in general. How long/what distance have you ridden in the saddle?


Yes, the pad attaches to the saddle via velcro. The pommel and cantle are stuffed. And yes, there is wither and spine clearance on the saddle - that is the reason you need to send her pics of the horse's back. I have 2 pads for mine - one for mutton withered horses and one for higher withered horses. The whole saddle is more formed than the other treeless I had and is built to work with the supplied pad to provide the clearance. 

I'm not sure what the distance is, but I've been in this saddle +5 hours in one day with no problems. 

I'll get pics of my saddle for you. It won't be tonight, but hopefully tomorrow.


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## 2SCHorses

PSNapier said:


> I'm sure you've probably heard of it before, but have you looked into Heather Moffett's seatbone saver? Heather Moffett Products It's suppose to help add more twist to Barefoot and Barefoot-esque saddles... maybe it plus the suber pad would be enough to give you some relief?



I thought about it, but with all that cork and padding, I'd be about a mile away. And it isn't just the twist, but I suppose it is a combo of the twist and stability. My hip gets tired from stabilizing me, and then the twist settles it in and just STRETCHES the snot out of the joint, and then I have pins, needles and agony. If I was injury free, or at least had no issues below my waist, I would keep the BF. It is a good saddle, but it isn't going to work for me if I want to eventually do 100s (that is my goal, at least).


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## lsdrider

I've been using a BMSS / Skito / Dixie Midnight combo for three years now. Got started on the BMSS after going thru many treed saddles and "fitters".

It has been a blessing to the horses and I find it very comfortable as well. I mount from the ground and do everything I did with treed saddles (no roping or pulling). I do grab a handful of mane when going up steep hills.


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## Saddlebag

You need to keep in mind that neither the tightness of the girth nor the weight of the stirrups (your legs) is spread over a tree but confined to small areas. This can make a horse's back sore. It is easier on the horse if a long stirrup is used to reduce the amount of pressure.


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## Deej

I have just ordered A "Sensation Treeless" {The Hybrid}.... I have been researching all the brands for the past 2 months, daily, hour after hour some days... I kept coming back to the Sensations. I got a chance to try one. I was amazed at how well my Peruvian mare felt and moved in this close contact saddle. I have been thru high end, 2 different gaited saddles, 2 Peruvian saddles, 1 Aussie, I had spent time and money on clinics, massage, and chrio to try to figure out way my mare was so unhappy under saddle. When I put the Sensation on her. She became a very different and willing horse. I always use a mounting block anyway, }or log or rock or picinic table  } because its so much easier on the horse. I have found you have to get a good one. And all the correct pads, breastplate, and even crupper if hill climbing.. But I gotta tell ya. It is worth it. Do your research. Sensation will even send you a demo saddle to try! Thats how confident they are in these amazing saddles. They may not be for everyone, But after riding in this Hybird It IS the saddle for me, and more impotantly, the saddle for my beautiful mare. Check them out at Sensation Treeless Saddles or go to Nickers Saddlery...


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## Saddlebag

My good trail gelding was very comfy bareback and if my seat bones dug in he didn't seem to mind. There were tell tale signs that he preferred my riding bareback than saddled and my saddles fit him well. I often rode for several hours bareback. Ladies, if you want a real nice tush, ride bareback and pinch your butt cheeks together to elevate the seat bones.


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## Corporal

"Corporal" (Arabian, 1982-2009, RIP) only had a problem with ONE saddle and that was bc it was too BIG. I would recommend trying a good English saddle WITH a breastplate and WITH a crupper. Invest in a wool girth cover and tighten only to mount. I used to finish ALL of my rides on Corporal with a loose girth. I didn't ride endurance racing but many of my rides topped 40 miles.
Everybody likes to think that these treeless saddles are kind to the horse. I believe that the tree is intended to protect your horse from YOUR body and to give you some depth to help you stay on him.


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## BlueSpark

It's funny, I've been thinking about bareback vs a treed saddle, and some horses just don't like bareback. There is a big strong gelding that I ride often that has a great back, very forward and willing english or western(treed), but hates bareback. Crow hops and pins his ears. 

I do think some horses like bareback and some don't. I think some have stronger backs and can get by with less weight distribution, depending of course on rider skill and size.

I think I may have to eventually go treeless, as I'm fairly sure pretzels already difficult to fit back will sway a bit as she ages. However, I really don't think they are the magical solution they are sometimes made out to be. For a new rider or one with ballance issues, they are a bad idea. For a heavy rider going any significant distance, they are maybe not the best. For any sort of high impact sport(like jumping), they are a bad idea, and even if it sounds like a good fit, the horse and/or rider may hate it regardless.

I would like to try one one day, but for now I'm sticking with my treed saddles.


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## BaoisGlas

I've had over 20 treeless saddles, and I have 4 Sensation saddles now (2 x Westlish Rebels, Hybrid and a Dressage Trail), I did have an English Trail and another Hybrid as well. 
Out of all the saddles I have tried the Sensations are my favourite. I can mount from the ground in them and had no issues with stirrup pressure due to the hard use and endurance stirrup settings.


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## george the mule

Hi All!

A friend spent most of her yearly "horse" budget on a treeless saddle a couple years back. She is an older lady, not large; perhaps 140lb. The saddle hurt her mares back to the point where the mare (whom she has owned and ridden for many, many years) finally unloaded her, damaging her foot and leg in the process. It took her most of a year to get back in the saddle, but she got rid of the treeless thing in favor of a modestly priced (used) english saddle; I think a Passier.

Personally, I won't ride until I am satisfied with saddle fit and a comfortable animal; it's just not fair to them. My big ol' TB "Oily" has prominent withers, and a back just made for a saddle. He owns a CrestRidge semi-custom endurance saddle. Perfect fit with only a gently-snugged cinch.

George_the_Mule is as round as a beer keg, with no perceptible withers at all, and was more of a challenge. The good people at Synergist made me one that "clicks" into place on his roundness; Awesome! I can (and do) ride him over highly technical terrain with a four-finger loose cinch w/o problems. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Every penny. FWIW, he does require a breast collar and breeching to locate the saddle fore and aft, but once I set them up for him they just snap into place.

IMO, fit is everything, and anything less is just another form of torture.

ByeBye! Steve


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## Southern Grace

I purchased a very hard to fit Arabian last September. He rejected every saddle I owned. After a lot of research, I ended up picking up a used FreeForm classic for him. He really did wonderfully in it as compared to the other saddles, open free movement all across. My biggest problems were that the Freeform has a rather padded flap and takes a padded saddle pad, stretching my legs even wider on an already wide backed horse. It is difficult to keep centered if you need to mount from the ground (we try to use a block anytime possible) or if your horse spooks hard to one direction. He has a tendancy to 180 and run when something scares him, and I'd always still be up there but maybe about an inch off center. We did need a breast collar and crupper when going out on steep hill areas as the saddle does slide around some, even with the sympnova lining on the pad. Also, my horse is fairly young and runs heavily on the forehand, I found I was constantly having to put my feet forward and really push myself back into the seat at the canter, not good habits for either of us. However, even with my legs out wide, I could ride all day and though I'd feel the strain on my inner legs, I wasn't sore anywhere else and all of my other friends were always worse off in treed saddles (all that foam and padding pays off sitting for a long time). He has never shown any soreness after a ride

Ultimately, I am training to be an eventer and want this horse to take me there (at least to some low level shows) and we really needed a treed saddle to keep my balance and positioning better and keep the saddle in place and clear of any sensitive spots on the horse when jumping. I recently purchased a Duett (designed for flat wide backs) and the saddle fitter gave us a big approval. It was a long hunt for the treed saddle in his size, my size, and my price range. The saddle fitter was never fond of my use of a treeless saddle, but I maintain treeless is better than an ill-fitting treed saddle any day. I plan to still keep the treeless for trail rides as it is just so comfortable, but now I have a normal saddle to do training work in. Ansur and Heather Moffett may make treeless saddles that would ride more correctly for my horse and discipline, but I just can't afford those even on the used market.


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## greentree

I trialled an Ansur.....that was the most uncomfortable saddle I ever sat on. It made my old Stuebben seen positively CUSHY! 

I still live my BMSS! I cannot mount from the ground, but you know what? I can't mount short horses in western saddles form the ground anymore, either!'


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## Cindyg

I also have a Rebecca Treeless, and have ridden in it for years. I am very happy with it. If you'd like to see pictures of it on my horse, send me a PM.


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## kiwi79

I got a torsion second-hand a couple of years but switched back to a treed saddle last year when dealing with a bucking issue. My torsion is now used by my partner until we can get him a good western saddles. Although on the whole I liked it I did have a number of issues with it. It was really really bulky and kept tipping me forward as the stirrup placement is non-adjustable. It really affected my balance and when I went back to a treed saddle was wonderful, felt like I was glued in place in comparision!
I rode my partners horse today in the torsion, first time I have been in that saddle in awhile and it was just - awful. I will probably hang onto it as an extra saddle but dont plan on using it much.


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## OTTBMomma

I ride in a Ghost saddle. Model is Quevis. I love it, it is so incredibly light and comfy. There was a little adjustment to it as my hips felt "wider" in the saddle, but it's tough to go back to my all purpose english saddle now. 

I'm thankful that I made the purchase though, I have a saddle that fits both my high withered TB, and my couch like draft cross.


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## blue eyed pony

I've never seen a treeless saddle sit well on a horse and I've never seen a horse go well in one.

That isn't to say that they can't and don't - I'm sure some of them do - but I haven't seen it happen.


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## KigerQueen

i know a horse chiro who used to work for a barrel racing trainer. she said that every horse ridden in a treeless has back issues. once they where ridden in properly fitted treed saddles their back issues vanished. there is a strap that hold the stirrups on, and without a tree that strap has a lot more weight on it and it dose not get dispersed.


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## DancingArabian

I have two treeless saddles and ride my horse exclusively in them. He has been treeless for over 4 years now. He has NEVER had a problem with soreness in his back. I am complimented very frequently about the condition of his back and body overall by the various pros (dentist, masseuse, vet). If anyone is curious, I have a Ghost Dressage saddle and an Ansur Konklusion.

I can mount from the ground if I have to. I prefer not to because it's bad for the horse's back, and I like my horse's back. However, you can learn how to mount from the ground without a girth even being attached to the saddle, so if you're (general you) are yanking the saddle around to mount from the ground, you're not doing the best thing for your horse.
Neither my horse nor myself have ever been sore from either treeless saddle. Longest ride was 100 miles, about 12 hours or so.
My saddles do not slide in any direction. My horse can really get in some wicked spooks on occasion and I ride those out no problem. I also ride on hilly terrain pretty often and still don't have a problem.

The last time I tried a treed saddle on my horse, he refused to go forward. This was with a saddle fitted by a fitter. It was a CWD saddle. That thing was awful - felt like sitting on the thin edge of a 2x4.


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## OTTBMomma

Did I post about my GHOST saddle experience? Girth straps came off after the first ride, the company was snippy with me.

Love my Freeform.


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## Saddlebag

I tried a Barefoot and a (german made one- long day) and on an extra wide horse the saddle and padding was just too wide.


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## lsdrider

I just received a new EZ Fit treeless saddle and put my first ride on it today. It is a well built piece of equipment and exhibits good craftsmanship It was easily set up for both my and my horses size and comfort. It was VERY comfortable on that first ride and fine tuning will be easily accomplished. Only put six miles on it this evening but am really looking forward to more tomorrow - the excitement continues! (That is coming off 5 years on a Bob Marshall original / Skito combo - not something to shake a stick at.)


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## Eole

lsdrider, please keep sharing your review of the saddle. And if you have pictures, of course it's always appreciated.

I'm starting to look around for a saddle for my new mare. Looking for close contact, short or no flaps, good position (not chair-seat), narrow twist and english rigging. Are Bob Marshalls all western rigged for a cinch?


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## greentree

Eole, there is just a 3" or so ring.....so it can be rigged English or western. I have a pair of biothane billets on mine, since I like mohair births, and those rings are quite low.....all of my horses wear an 18" dressage girth on the Bob Marshall!


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## greentree

That looks like a wonderful saddle! I may have to try one, but I have to win a lottery first, lol!


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## gottatrot

I know this is an old thread, but I have a treeless experience to share.

I've never been one that follows natural horsemanship trainers, but I try to do everything as painlessly as possible for the horse. Treeless saddles have always intrigued me, but I've been reluctant to try one due to the things I've heard about back pressure worries and slippage on the horse.

I ride my mare in two different English saddles that fit her as well as possible. Both are Lovatt and Ricketts, made for Arabs with a hoop tree. Still, she has huge shoulders and one is larger than the other. If you put the saddle forward, it interferes with her shoulder and the saddle tends to go to the right If you put it back far enough to clear her shoulders, you're sitting behind her motion and it's very rough going - she has a short back and downhill build. Shims only improve things a bit.

She's always been excitable and rushy. Lately she's been more calm due to some diet changes, and it seemed like a good time to try some things like a hackamore and a treeless saddle.

I bought a Freeform Classic, used. I've ridden in it three times. I cannot believe how happy my horse is. For the first time ever, she can sustain a slower trot and canter, and the saddle isn't trying to veer to the right. She's always been cinchy, and it was amazing that today she was chewing as I tightened her saddle instead of making faces. It's like someone has finally given her the ability to relax, and I've had her 5 years so I thought it was not in her nature. In that time I've tried 4 or 5 different treed saddles with her.

The Freeform is very secure for me, not like riding bareback at all. I can ride bareback, but I would not gallop this horse bareback - that would be dangerous for anyone at this point in her life. Maybe a beginner would want more stability to hold onto, but if you ride comfortably at all gaits in an English saddle, don't hesitate like I did (for years) or think a good treeless like this will make you less secure. There is no slippage side to side or front to back with a Haf pad on, and this is a horse that has major slippage issues with treed saddles. She is not that wide but is still round on top with low withers. 

I don't know what it would be like on a very wide horse. I notice my muscles are slightly sore from adjusting to a different feel, but it is no different to me than riding in another brand of treed saddle on a bigger horse for a long ride. I am a featherweight rider. After the rides there has been even sweat on both sides of the spine, and the spine is dry. My horse is practically shouting at me how comfortable she is. I wish I'd tried it sooner. Obviously treeless saddles are not going to be magical for every horse and rider combo, but if you have an asymmetrical horse like I do, it may be your solution. This is the first and only treeless I've tried other than bareback pads.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I ride my mare in two different English saddles that fit her as well as possible. Both are Lovatt and Ricketts, made for Arabs with a hoop tree.


So does that mean you are going to be selling your L&R saddle(s)?

Glad you had such a great experience with the Freeforms. Always awesome to finally find the right saddle for your horse!!


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> So does that mean you are going to be selling your L&R saddle(s)?



I am thinking about selling at least one of them, but it's a hard decision because they are such nice saddles. I have another mare and it's hard to justify keeping two saddles just for her, but they both fit her very nicely and I can't decide which one I like the best. One is a Sylvan, which is an all purpose model. The other one is an Ellipse dressage saddle. You can ride in either one of them all day and be comfortable.


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