# Young horse English riding critique



## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

This is my 5 yo Macarena in August of this year. We mostly ride on trails but I also school her in these fields to do basic dressage. She is stiff on the riaght rein and finds canter departures on this rein quite hard. Recently she is throwing in the odd head shake (at 0:50 m) which I'm not sure if it's protest or attitude?

Sorry about the white noise in the video - the video editor did this so the only thing to do is turn the volume down. 

I'm interested in any comments on her level, what I should be doing with her, my mistakes.... the more the better! No one much rides English round here and I don't have anyone knowledgeable to guide me. Thanks!

https://youtu.be/jHP0_qrXFJA
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I got to 1:03 and then stopped the video.

The major thing that I see if inconsistency, with her as a reflection of you. I feel as though you should spend more time at the walk, asking her to RELAX, give to the bit, bend through her body, and not fight the contact.

This will also allow you to work on truly following her with your hands, arms, seat, and legs.. to develop her rhythm and match it to yours in time. All of these are cohesive yet _independent_ and right now you are still working on that aspect.

Only then would I ask her to trot, and I would work on slowing it down considerably so you still have impulsion but a slower rhythm (she seems like she's steam rolling along in her trot, I don't blame her since it's a large open area) but the challenge is to have independent hands... so that the contact is soft no matter which gait she is in, and so she stays relaxed through the transition. 

How does she back up? Does she back up with her head held up high like a llama or down like she's trying to use her rear?

Does she know how to yield to pressure like turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand? Can she leg yield? If not, work on that on the ground and then bring it under saddle slowly.

I hope I don't sound hoity toighty. I'm still learning for myself, and struggle with independent hands as well. The more you practice, the better you will get at developing that feel and not relying on your arm-hand to be one piece.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I got to 1:03 and then stopped the video.
> 
> The major thing that I see if inconsistency, with her as a reflection of you. I feel as though you should spend more time at the walk, asking her to RELAX, give to the bit, bend through her body, and not fight the contact.


You're right about her not being very relaxed. She tends to be forward and in a lot of our photos her head is high, which I guess means a tense back. But look at this shot from a different ride - is that what you're talking about? 



That day she gave me this beautiful trot a couple of times, but it wasn't slow either. In fact I think the more impulsion she has, the more likely she is to relax her neck. So maybe she isn't actually relaxing??



Skyseternalangel said:


> This will also allow you to work on truly following her with your hands, arms, seat, and legs.. to develop her rhythm and match it to yours in time. All of these are cohesive yet _independent_ and right now you are still working on that aspect.
> 
> Only then would I ask her to trot, and I would work on slowing it down considerably so you still have impulsion but a slower rhythm (she seems like she's steam rolling along in her trot, I don't blame her since it's a large open area) but the challenge is to have independent hands... so that the contact is soft no matter which gait she is in, and so she stays relaxed through the transition.


Steam-rolling lol, yes, she is very active in her gaits ;-) Hard to get her to slow down when there are no enclosed spaces for us to work in. She's actually better at going slow within the gait at the canter (in the second part of the video). Trot is definitely a work in progress.

I know it's hard to see detail in the video as we're just too far away most of the time, but my contact is flexible and, I think, consistent. I ride with light contact at trot and canter because we do best like that, but I'm certainly not pulling or jabbing on her.



Skyseternalangel said:


> How does she back up? Does she back up with her head held up high like a llama or down like she's trying to use her rear?
> 
> Does she know how to yield to pressure like turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand? Can she leg yield? If not, work on that on the ground and then bring it under saddle slowly.


You got it, she backs up llama - style. She knows turn on the haunches under saddle, and we are starting turn on the forehand on the ground at present. She leg yields quite well. I have started doing more groundwork with her in the last four months, as since that video we began to have some problems under saddle and so we have gone back several steps. When I started her I didn't know much about groundwork - I taught her to lunge and then started riding - and so now we're going back over what I missed then.



Skyseternalangel said:


> I hope I don't sound hoity toighty. I'm still learning for myself, and struggle with independent hands as well. The more you practice, the better you will get at developing that feel and not relying on your arm-hand to be one piece.


Thanks for taking the time to comment. Independent eyes are always so useful.

ETA I forgot to say in my first post that I'm riding her in a crossunder bitless bridle, in case that's an important consideration.
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Bondre said:


> You're right about her not being very relaxed. She tends to be forward and in a lot of our photos her head is high, which I guess means a tense back. But look at this shot from a different ride - is that what you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I've never heard of that kind of apparatus, I'm going to look it up!

Re the backing, if you work on it on the ground, in time she will get better and less llama-like! And then, that will translate to under saddle... so long as she gives, and THEN you will have more of a connection!

If I watch the rein, it gets loose-tight in a lot of the video, it's never like a guitar string... taught but still giving (as in not locking her head down but not flapping loose either) 

I didn't watch the rest of the video because I feel as though when you move up a gait, the gait before it should be relaxed and I didn't quite see that. I try not to trot my horse until he's nice and relaxed at the walk which can take some time. Otherwise he's dialed up and stiff, and then you add speed to that, which is quite different from impulsion. 

Just conversation, not trying to argue.

In your photo, I do see her head is down but I see stiffness in her face, neck, back... do you see it too? But it's a VAST improvement from llama mama mode. It's better to be there 80% of the ride and have moments of relaxation, than try and force her to do something she isn't mentally prepared for.

Forward is okay so long as she isn't trying to run away from your aids. She just seems stiffer and worried. When my horse is like that, I give him something to do (lateral work, figures, bending cues) and it helps a lot... it's a process but we get there and then he gets HUGE walk breaks in between. Huge as in long loose rein but he's still expected to walk with good impulsion, and a few laps of walk. That's his reward for getting it right, or trying to. Nothing worse than when a horse doesn't try, which I don't see when I watch you and her ride together, I just see worry and stiffness and maybe some sass thrown in as well.

I'm going to try and share some still of Sky throughout his riding career.. how he started and how he is now (we still have FAR to go) shortly in this thread.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I didn't watch the rest of the video because I feel as though when you move up a gait, the gait before it should be relaxed and I didn't quite see that. I try not to trot my horse until he's nice and relaxed at the walk which can take some time. Otherwise he's dialed up and stiff, and then you add speed to that, which is quite different from impulsion.
> 
> Just conversation, not trying to argue.
> 
> ...


Very interesting that you say she looks worried - and you're right about the bit of sass thrown in. This could explain so many of our current problems. 

And yes, now you say it I CAN see the stiffness in her neck in that photo I posted.
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Okay we'll see how this works 

These pictures range from 2011-oct 2015

Many different types of riding, my knowledge expanded (both good and bad), my position got better, and Sky became more trusting as well.

MANY tack changes, hoof issues, time away from him and he was with other people...

But I hope you can see the progression and more importantly I hope you can notice the stiffness in the earlier photos. I have plenty of awkward riding videos I can share with you as well, haha..

So what she's giving you is a starting point, from there you and her have to learn to give, to bend, to yield, and then it'll become more relaxed and more connected.

We are still working on it, this is a horse that was a bolting, spooking, I'm-outta-here-and-you-get-off-me freak.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I used to ride an Andalusian horse, and he would often trot like that; sometimes just racing along, then slow, then racing. Getting a consistent speed was really challenging. What helps is to set a rhythm that is fair to him, meaning realistic for his natural trot, and then YOU keep that speed in your posting, forcing him to slow and meet you. Again, your horse will by nature have a fast trot, but make sure it isn't sliding to faster and faster and she becomes in balanced. This tends to make us lean forward so focusing on sitting upright. And maybe sitting the trot if she starts to get fizzy. When you post, it's harder to utilize your powerful core to "hold" a horse. I see you do it a bit at the canter, but I a.so see a bit of rigidity that has you bouncing a bit at the canter. Really sit down into her back and get everything going and coming from your core.

You legs are a bit out in front of you, but that might be the saddle type and you might try shortening the stirrup just a bit. You actually are doin well and have a ton of potential with this lovely mare.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> I used to ride an Andalusian horse, and he would often trot like that; sometimes just racing along, then slow, then racing. Getting a consistent speed was really challenging. What helps is to set a rhythm that is fair to him, meaning realistic for his natural trot, and then YOU keep that speed in your posting, forcing him to slow and meet you. Again, your horse will by nature have a fast trot, but make sure it isn't sliding to faster and faster and she becomes in balanced. This tends to make us lean forward so focusing on sitting upright.


You've put your finger on it here, Caroline. I have a big issue with leaning forward at the trot with her. I am continually correcting myself on it, but there's something about her trot which makes my shoulders creep forward however hard I try not to. 



tinyliny said:


> And maybe sitting the trot if she starts to get fizzy. When you post, it's harder to utilize your powerful core to "hold" a horse. I see you do it a bit at the canter, but I a.so see a bit of rigidity that has you bouncing a bit at the canter. Really sit down into her back and get everything going and coming from your core.


Spot on again. I hate sitting the trot with her because she is a big mover, but I must make myself do it if I want to improve my control with my seat. The deeper seat contact at the canter is no doubt why sometimes we achieve a really nice collected canter.



tinyliny said:


> You legs are a bit out in front of you, but that might be the saddle type and you might try shortening the stirrup just a bit. You actually are doin well and have a ton of potential with this lovely mare.


It may be the saddle. I often look at my photos and think what a horrible chair seat I have. I have actually recently lengthened my stirrups to try and correct my lower leg position. I think shortening them would actually make it worse.

Thank you for your encouragement and perceptive, constructive comments.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Having your legs out in front, due to the saddle balance , will automatically make you need to put your upper body out there,too, when posting. its hard to rise without throwing the upper body forward to get over your center of gravity.


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## 2horses (Oct 11, 2009)

This isn't much of a critique, but I wanted to mention that I have seen a lot of horses hold their head high and brace their necks like that when they wear bitless bridles. I think I read that the bitless bridle can put pressure on their chin. I wonder if you would get a better result with a bit.


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## kellison (Nov 20, 2015)

I find that when working with a young horse in transitions, it's best to ask while you are in two-point. This ensures you don't pull on the horse's mouth, bang your seat against the saddle, or lose your position. Once you can get her transitioning well, you can try to sit the canter AFTER the transition is complete, and then begin to ask while seated. 

Speaking of position, you mentioned the "chair position" which is great that you noticed it yourself! I do think that lengthening your stirrups would help. Also, you aren't going forward enough in your posting, which is putting you behind the motion. I'm sure this is to help with the "steam-rolling trot", but it's just stiffening your seat and creating tension in both you and her. Try to sit deeper in the saddle, open your hips, and pull your pelvis up to your hands, not forward to the pommel of the saddle. This will engage her hind end more, which will help lengthen the trot. Also, try widening your hands a little, probably to the width of your hips. When working with young horses, this creates a stability and encourages them to round their back and find the bit. 

An exercise to try: Make a small circle (roughly 15 m) and work on the trot. Find the rhythm will all of the advice above. Make sure you are supporting with your outside leg and rein. Do this by just lengthening your outside leg, not applying excessive pressure. You want to engage your inside leg to keep the movement and encourage the bend of the ribcage. If you have a buck strap, hold on to that with the pinky of your outside hand so you are sure you aren't losing that connection. With your inside hand, try to encourage the round frame. Do this by shortening slightly, and move your wrist like you are scooping ice cream. 

Once you achieve the desired frame, really move the mare up by encouraging her to lengthen her stride and step into it. Once you can accomplish this in both directions, move on to the canter exercises.

Canter exercise: Find the seat you are most confident with (two-point, half-seat, etc.) Make sure there is NO bouncing in the saddle (which unfortunately is the case in your video). Ask for the canter while in a 20 m circle. Once you have the transition, go back to the trot immediately. Have her settle back in the rhythm, and ask for the canter again, and then trot again. Do this until she keeps her frame while in both directions. Once she does this, work on the canter on a straight line. If she loses her frame, do a 10 m circle at the canter until she collects her frame, then go back on the straight line. Repeat as necessary.

Good luck!


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Thank you, Kellison! You've given me a lot to work on. Really helpful 

I wish I had someone on the ground shouting all this stuff out to me as necessary. I find it hard to keep it all in my head, plus a lot of the time I don't even realise when I'm doing something wrong. What I'd give to have my old riding instructor out here yelling at me to open my hips, square my shoulders and sit deep!
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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Good advice. However, if your saddle balance, the position of the stirrup bars and/or the if the saddle is pommel high , it is very hard to get your legs under you. You are fighting gravity constantly and lengthening your stirrups won't help that if they are already pretty long, which they are.


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## kellison (Nov 20, 2015)

After watching the video again, and paying attention to your leg specifically, I do agree with tinyliny. That's what I get for just watching the video once haha. Try shortening your stirrups a couple of holes while walking and see how they feel. If your leg is still too far forward, you need to condition your thighs more (posting without stirrups, two-point, etc.) Thank you, tinyliny, for pointing out my mistake.


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## kellison (Nov 20, 2015)

Bondre, I'm glad I could help. Perhaps you could post a new thread under the trainer's section and see if there is anyone around you that could help in person? A lot of times, there are other riders in the same situation as you that you just haven't connected with yet.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Bondre, I had the same problem with not having eyes on the ground. What helped me was PMing a forum member to help me out.

I think for when you ride, you need to learn how to tell how your mare feels and how YOU feel. What I mean is, when is he too fast and when are you posting too fast or chasing her, when is she too stiff and are you too stiff, when is she wound up and when are you nervous

I would personally work more at the walk, and try and teach her on the ground to yield.. so that you can incorporate that in your riding. That will help her stay soft, and slow down.

Then, record it and review it later. And then find someone to help coach you or tell you "hey that part was really nice!" 

Sky used to be a freight train and now he has different tempos within almost every gait (canter is rusty) and in time and with work she will too!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree with trying shorter stirrups at this stage - it will give you a stronger seat and help stabilize your lower legs
I disagree with doing any type of what I call basic low level dressage schooling on a green horse in 2 Point. To get good transitions from any horse you need to be sitting up and sitting down with your shoulders straight but not stiff or tense if you're going to 'hold them together'.
Try to get her more between your leg and your hand - she needs to be in front of your leg (which she seems to do well) and going into your hands but then you need to use your hand and seat to dictate how fast she's going because at present her version of trotting is what I call 'running', too flat and rushed like its all about speed and not enough about energy
If you want to stay bitless you might find that an English hackamore or the Stubben style of the English hackamore will give you more power than a simple sidepull without the severity of the long shanks you see on the typical German or US Western ones


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I find it interesting that pretty much everyone is commenting on her fast trot. I see her trotting fast at the start of the video, but she settles into a better rhythm and after we change the rein and come back past the camera on the right rein, she is doing what I would call a nice working trot. I don't actually see her steam-rolling along with her head up like a giraffe and her back hollow. I'm sure we do lack finesse and balance, but I can't see the big problem with the pace myself.

Here is a video of another session as comparison. I think she is working nicely in the first part of the video. The second part was the same day but it was getting late and she was anxious to call it a day and go home. Here she was REALLY trying to tank along - you can see the speed but I still don't think she looks flat - until we turned away from home and the tempo came back down to normal. But even after being very hyped up, she walked out nicely on a loose rein when we finished.

 https://youtu.be/FYC1cCN4Ci8 
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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Slow and steady. You do want impulsion and foreward but that will not come through the kind of speed you are seeing in the video.

She dislikes the contact and wants to go. I agree with going back to basics and I would also try her in a plan snaffle bit. I think the design of that bridle is just not going to be conductive to what you want to do with contact.

You do want to push her into contact but right now it looks like she's just pushing through contact or evading as opposed to pushing INTO it.

I would try to work in a smaller area if possible. But MAN I wish I had a field like that!!!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think he's particularly hollow backed or giraffe necked
The breed has a naturally high head carriage but they also have natural elevation and that's what I'm *not *seeing in these videos because he's running through your hands and wanting to treat the work like a speed race
The working trot is about power and energy and covering the ground with a good sweeping stride not about how fast the legs move or how much speed you can get up
Slow it all down a notch, try working on some flexion exercises like leg yields and shoulder in to encourage relaxation and suppleness
I agree with Yogiwick - a smaller schooling area might be helpful at this point in your schooling if she's a bit too forward


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

To improve your chair seat until you can change saddles, you might try letting your stirrups out a whole or two. This may help your leg hang, and therefore stay under you better. 

I hope later my internet will let me watch the video, but I agree with Sky....walk more with LOOSE arms, continually asking for length. Also, work on a spiral, asking for yielding out, and then you can use your inside leg as a slow down command. 

I have never trained a horse in an arena.....so I understand!


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I agree that if we were in an enclosed arena she would probably slow down several notches, but that isn't available so I'll have to teach her using a combination of lateral work as you've all suggested.

At the moment we're actually working on a bad balking problem so we won't be schooling in those fields again until we get it sorted, but I was interested to see what people thought of our pre-balking schooling work, in case anything really stood out that could have been the cause of our current issues. Sky pointed out that she seems tense and hurried, and you've all confirmed the hurried aspect though perhaps not the tense. This points towards her always having wanted to rush through the work to get done faster, and she has now realised that if she just flat-out refuses to go out, perhaps she won't have to do anything. All combined with my not having time to do any consistent riding for the last two months, and you have an idle, barn sour horse. :-(

I mention all this to explain that I unfortunately won't be putting all your useful suggestions into practice real soon, but I will do so once we are ready. 

Yogiwick, I wish those huge fields were mine too! They are unused as the owners neither want to sell nor rent them, which is good for me as I can use them for riding. If they sold the local broccoli king would be in there like a flash, offering more then I could afford, and likewise if they rented, so it's best like this. I don't have a smaller area for schooling with decent footing; there is a small patch of land beside the yard where I do groundwork but it's very stony for riding.
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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, I REALLY like your mare! She has impulsion and carries her weight very well, and even though bracing against the bit, she is travelling at the posting trot speed UPhill. These as training aspects that many people have to work hard to achieve, so you don't have to.
Regarding yourself, here is what I suggest:
1) MY PET PEEVE: TUCK YOUR SHIRT IN YOUR PANTS!!! You will be sitting on it, and you don't need that to deal with. Plus, it is just neater. (I'm surprised that your previous instructor let you get away with that, bc I wouldn't have.)
2) Either take your saddle to a babysitter horse, or put it on the fence, drop your legs straight down and readjust your stirrups to sit where the BOTTOM of the stirrup iron rests just below your ankle BONE. This is average setting for an English Stirrup. Pay attention to where your foot is just hanging. You should not be able to see any more than the tip of your boot, looking down over your knee. If you see more while riding, you are sitting in a chair seat.
3) If it helps give you more security, ride this horse with a Western saddle. The horse never cares which saddle you use, as long as it doesn't pinch or rub.
4) DRILL the whoa into this horse. If she doesn't listen the first time, pull her head to the side and deMAND it. She is really cruising along and every time you turn it looks jerky as if she doesn't care which direction she moves as long as she can continue to go fast.
5) You CAN train a young horse with a bit. Many here prefer a French Link Snaffle, which is mild.
6) When a green horse shakes his/her head, they are telling you "No, I DON'T want to do this!"
When a more seasoned horse shakes his/her head, they are telling you, "I don't understand how to do what you want."


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

If there a way you could ride with your son with your more experienced horse and ride parallel (side by side but with GOOD room inbetween) and have that experienced horse set a slower tempo that she could match?

I've noticed that when I did "follow the leader" with my friend and her son, that helped his slow horse speed up, yet my fast pacer slow down to roughly the same tempo... and THAT was great learning for both of them.

Sky used to freight around too, and he was MUCH more "runaway" than your mare is being.

Something to try. We did it at walk and trot but you could also try it at canter, just put a little more space inbetween you both, and call out directions so you don't crash.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's not about speed, it's about impulsion.

You want the horse nice and relaxed, slow even. You build up impulsion and PUSH from the hind end.

"Speed" means a horse dragging itself forward quickly. It's about mindset. You PUSH forward, INTO the bridle.

Not "speed" forward THOUGH the bridle!

The starting point is the even "slow and steady" relaxed. Look up the dressage pyramid and use it.

You need tempo and theme. You don't actually want "slow and steady" but that may be a good mindset to be in for her at this point. just to get that relaxation and rhythm.


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