# Picking Up Arthritic Feet--And Senior Horse Other Questions



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

I wasn't sure whether I should post this in the training or health section, but I'll put it here. 

As you may know, I was given a 27 year old appaloosa gelding. He has some arthritis in his knees and a bit in his hocks. His right knee is noticeably "chunkier" than his left--perhaps the remains of an old injury. Would it help to post pictures?

Anyway, he is either a testy or completely desensitized horse. He doesn't like to yield to pressure, ignores my legs (he was used for therapeutic riding), and doesn't like to stop when I'm riding him (but never runs off and he'll stop fine when leading from the ground). Is he being disrespectful or am I asking too much of him?

So we have been having troubles picking up his feet. His right front in particular. He paws out forwards when I ask (more like pull with all my might) to pick it up. He walks, trots, and canters in the pasture and it doesn't seem like he is favoring that leg (I'm not real keen at picking up slight lameness--but he is NOT limping). His other feet are hard to pick up (you've really gotta pull--you can't nicely ask him) but you can get them up.

The farrier thinks he is sore because of the extra arthritis in that knee, so I put him on a strong joint supplement and have some aspirin for longer rides and such. 

Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

My 31 yr old appy is on a double dose of MSM daily to help with his arthritis. He has great difficulty picking up one front hoof for cleaning or trimming without bute for several days. In his case it's his shoulder, opposite side, that hurts him. He will paw, pull away, and groan if we try to manipulate it without sufficient bute. He does walk around, trot some and gives the grandkids rides without lameness. The more exercise he gets the better he moves. Just don't shut an arthritic horse in a stall. Make sure they have room to move around.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Appyt's advice is excellent, ESPECIALLY no stall time, 24/7 turnour.

Here's a simple diagnostic. Give him 2 grams of bute in the evening; the following morning, try picking his feet up and see if he's more cooperative. If so, you have your answer - it's not behavioral, it's pain. 

Of course, you can't keep him on bute long term, but I would def give him bute the evening before and the morning of a farrier appointment. There's also lots you can do to manage arthritis in an older horse: MSM or other joint supplements, injections, mild, consistent forced exercise, 24/7 turnout. 

If bute doesn't change his behavior; then you can feel free to address this as a training issue and assume he learned to get over on his handlers during his time as a therapuetic horse. 

I'd bet that it has more to do with pain and stiffness.


----------



## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

You farrier gave you excellent advice about the joint supplements - those and as much turnout as you can give him will help.

Asking the horses to stop (and he doesn't) means he needs to learn to stop - so ask nicely once (saying whoa) and if he doesn't really get on his case to stop. 

(Always ask nicely first THEN if horse doesn't listen get on his case - teaches them to listen to the quiet/subtle request.)


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Everyone else hit the nail on the head. My old mare (30) has extreme difficulty picking up all of her legs due to arthritis/balance issues. Find out if it is pain (Maura's suggestion is excellent) and go from there.

If it is pain make sure to find a farrier who is willing to take it slow and give him multiple breaks during the process. When I trim my mare's hooves I rotate every minute or so to give her a break. Give some bute the night before and the morning of trimming.


----------



## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

I have a little tip to add to help you to pick up his feet. When you ask softly for him to lift his leg and he doesn't, use the end of your hoofpick and gently tap his fetlock with it. You might need to tap harder depending on him, but as soon as he lifts his leg take your hand away. Repeat this until when you ask gently he picks up his foot. Easy thing to help you not strain yourself too hard, because you know he's laughing inside watching you struggle. hehe


----------



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for all of the advice everyone!

Kubie is turned out 24/7 in a 3/4 acre pasture with my other horses. I have been lightly riding him and he hasn't shown any soreness or pain. He loves to get out and go places! 

He is on a glucosamine/MSM + supplement by Direct Equine. It has 10,000 mg Glucosamine and 8,000 mg of MSM. Is this a good choice? 

Direct Flex™

I don't have any bute (do you need to get it through a vet or under a vet's supervision?), but I do have a bunch of horse aspirin. That would have a similar effect to bute, right? I will give that a try to see if that is why he is picky about that foot--thanks so much for that idea!

I have an amazing farrier. Kubie was acting a little stiff with his hoof up on the hoofjack, so she let us take a few minute long walking breaks. Those seemed to help a lot. I'm glad I have such a patient and helpful farrier! My farrier mentioned how some bute/aspirin would be a good idea before a trim--just to make him a bit more comfortable.


----------



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

So I tried the aspirin today--the dosage on the package suggested 1/8 to 4 tablespoons. I gave him 1 tablespoon, and it seemed to help I bit. I could tell his knee wasn't as swollen, and he would lift it up a bit. I still couldn't pick it out though...should I try more so I will know how much to give him for when the farrier comes out?

I watched Kubie closely when he walked, and he flexes his knee and everything when he walks--pretty much to a lower position where I could pick it out (I tend to hold my horses feet lower to the ground when I handle their hooves). Unless holding it there is painful, I'm not quite sure why he won't let me pick up that leg...or at least tilt his hoof to a position where I could clean it out.

In his previous home, he was the boss and would sometimes eat the other horse's grain, which contained bute. Perhaps that might be why he let me pick up his feet for the first few days I had him? How long does bute stay in the system?


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

According to my vet it depends on the horse and the amount of pain they are in. Flame seems to feel the effects of just a gram for 1-2 days. 

I've noticed that the leg I have the most problems picking up w/ Flame isn't the really injured one (that she can't bend all the way). She gives me the stiff leg very easily. But she is always very reluctant to give me her other front leg and from her actions it seems to be very uncomfortable to put her weight on the injured/stiffer leg while I'm working on her better one. That may be a problem for him too.


----------



## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

That is the way my appy is. Opposite from bad shoulder.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I'd be very careful giving him stuff like bute and asprin - being very strong and can effect his tummy and digestive tract. You could run into issues like ulcers and other digestive issues, leading to colic.

I would go and pick up B-L Solution, and MSM. B-L Solution does just as good of a job as Bute and Asprin, but is does not have the strong chemicals to it so it wont effect your horses stomache or digestive tract. AND you can give it to him on a daily basis in his feed rations, as a suppliment.

My fellow, is 21 years old and is now showing arthritus in his hind right hock, and I have just started him on B-L Solution. I like it because my fellow already has ulcers, and digestive issues, so the B-L will not contradict his already ulcer treating suppliments, nor will it effect his system - WHILE it relieves arthritic pain and inflamation.

I have also just started him on his loading dose of Adequan, which is $40 a shot, once a month. It is an Intramuscular Injection, that way - you know it is doing its job as it is supposed to be. *I am doing the loading dose, which is 1 shot once a week for 7 weeks* If you cannot afford that, it's alright to do a shot once a month. It takes 48 hours for the injection to take effect, but once it does, your horse will be more the merrier.

I would be careful with oral suppliments. They have not been proven to be effective, nor have they been proven to contain the ingredients that the lables claim to have.

The reason being, is because Oral suppliments fall under the Equine Nutrition Category, where rules and regulations are not that strict. So the makers can say that "this and this" is in it, but it may really not because the "authorities" do not keep tabs. There could also be alot of fillers in it.

If you do go with an Oral - please make sure that NASC has examined the product, and "ok'd" it to be put on the shelf. The container will have their lable on it, stating that "yes we examined this product and it is what it claims to be"

The other reason why orals are not 100%, is because the amount you put into their mouths, is not the amount that is going to get to the specified area to do its' job. The scoop may be 1 ounce, but in reality, what actually targets the issue may be far less than the innitial scoop given. Because it has to travel through the digestive system, get into the blood stream and then so on and so on.

Injections - such as Glucosamine IM's, Polyglycam IM's, Adequan IM's, and Legen IV's .....fall under the Equine Medical Category. Where rules, regulations and investigations are strict and regulated. So, the product you buy and administer to your horse, is exactly as it says it is, and has been proven time and time again to do the job that they are meant to do - beacuse of the category they fall under.



From one Senior Owner to another, I would look into a stronger Joint Care Regime, but even if you remain with orals - please, please drop the Bute and the Asprin, and pick up B-L Solution.


~~~


As others already stated, turn out 100% of the time. No stall, I find that when Nelson is put into a stall, his mental health not only deteriorates, but his physical health as well. He stocks up, stffens up and when taken out, he looks rickity and stiff.

He does very well when he is left outside day and night. The only time he does come in, is to eat his breakfast and his dinner, then he gets sent back out on his way with his buddy.

~~~

All the best to the both of you!


----------



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for all of the information! I did look into the B-L Solution (by Equine America, right?) but because my dad is a pharmacist, I have inherited his wariness of "natural" treatments. How well does the B-L Solution work compaired to bute and aspirin? Is it powerful enough to control joint pain? Are there any studies comparing B-L Solution to the more common pain killers? 

I've read up on the whole stomach ulcer thing (and talked to my dad about it), and I don't think it is likely to be something to worry about unless you are administering it every day for a prolonged period. I think a gentle day-to-day type pain killer might be helpful for Kubie though.

The week after I bought that tub of supplements I was reading a book that said the same things you did--supplements aren't usually worth your money. There was a study in that book that stated only 6% of the glucosamine from a supplement actually makes it to the desired location in the horse. The supplement I have does contain a bunch of MSM and yucca, so perhaps it may do him a little good. 

I do not have a barn, just a run-in shed, so Kubie is out 24/7. He trots up to get his grain and seems way more active than what I had pictured for a senior horse.


----------



## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

CharliGirl said:


> I've read up on the whole stomach ulcer thing (and talked to my dad about it), and I don't think it is likely to be something to worry about unless you are administering it every day for a prolonged period. I think a gentle day-to-day type pain killer might be helpful for Kubie though.


You are right to be wary of "natural" products as they are less researched and regulated than pharmaceuticals, however do not right them off completely.

Note: not meant in a snarky way here... is your dad a veterinary pharmacist? If not, he may be unaware that horses are exquisitely sensitive to the effects of NSAIDS like bute. It is recommended that they not be on them for more than 4 days and if already stressed or pre-disposed to ulcers, you should use them only concurrently with a drug such as omeprazole (gastro guard in horses, prilosec in humans). Animals and humans are very different when it comes to the effects of certain drugs, for example one half of an advil tablet will kill your cat or dog if you do not intervene aggressively.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

My mare has obvious scarring from old injuries on her left front and right rear hind legs. Her rear leg doesn't bother her to pick up, but she has issues having me pick up her right leg because I think there is discomfort with her having to rest on the left front for long periods of time. She almost 'bows' sometimes, in order to relieve some of the pressure. She never really pulls her foot away, and she picks all four feet up with just a touch of my hand, but I can tell she gets uncomfortable after a bit of having to stand on that left front, so when I'm trimming (the time I have to hold her longest), I will do the initial clean and trimming of the excess, then give her a break before I go into filing. She isn't visibly lame either, so your gelding could certainly just experience some discomfort when he has to rest on that leg.

However, that said, his reluctance to lift any of this feet IS a training thing...he probably has never really be taught to 'give' his feet, and rather has just been coaxed into giving it up...thus the stubborn behavior and you having to physically try to lift his legs. I had an Appy for part of last year, and he was like that; so what I did was kept his lead looped over my arm and would apply a bit of pressure on his leg, then bump his halter lightly, to get him to begin to back up, while simultaneously saying "up"...as soon as he lifted the foot, I would hold it for just a second, then give it back to him; soon he was giving the foot before I had to bump his halter...and he learned really quickly to give his feet to light pressure from my hand alone, rather than making me try to physically lift his feet up. My current mare was like that too, when I first got her, and I did the same, and now she lifts her foot as soon as I tap her lower leg.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> for example one half of an advil tablet will kill your cat or dog if you do not intervene aggressively.


Uh...no it won't...maybe you're thinking about acetaminophen (tylenol) :wink:, but ibuprofen can be administered fairly safely in dogs...cats are more reactive to it, but it's not fatal if they get it every once in a while or on accident. HOWEVER, you must know how much to give and how often; a dog will keep ibuprofen in his system I think it's 6-10 hours longer than a human, so you don't want to administer it more than once in a day...which is probably why aspirin is the preferred 'at home' pain reliever for dogs and cats.


----------



## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

I once had to give my Appy Bute for more than 4 days. He was fine. It really does depend on the horse, but it's good to know you can use an ulcer guard while administering it.


----------



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> However, that said, his reluctance to lift any of this feet IS a training thing...he probably has never really be taught to 'give' his feet, and rather has just been coaxed into giving it up...thus the stubborn behavior and you having to physically try to lift his legs.


I think this is the case with Kubie. He doesn't "give" easily to any sort of pressure, whether it is picking up a foot, backing him up by touching his nose, pushing his hindquarters away from me, etc. I've been trying to do some more groundwork with him to help with this.


----------



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

Appyt said:


> I once had to give my Appy Bute for more than 4 days. He was fine. It really does depend on the horse, but it's good to know you can use an ulcer guard while administering it.


Kubie's pasture mate sounded like she was on bute for more that 4 days. Her navicular bone was hollowing itself out and was on daily bute for awhile before she was put down. Kubie and this horse were pastured together, and I am told that he sometimes would get into her grain. :?


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I just had a conversation with my vet about putting Flame on regular Bute. Her supplement really helped for awhile, but it's getting the the point where it isn't doing any good any more. 

My vet repeated everything that I already knew about Bute use and then told me that the time it takes to have a bad effect depends on the horse. There are other treatments to relieve her pain, but they are all very expensive. This is looking to be her last summer, so I'm just looking for a way to keep her comfy for the next 4-5 months or so. We talked about playing with the dosage so as to give her just enough to take the edge off so she can walk more comfortably and hopefully stop falling (about 2-3x a week now she goes down hard on her knees). 

I'll have to ask her about Adequan w/o doing the weekly loading. I don't have that kind of money, but if it would provide some relief even without loading that could be what I'm looking for.


----------

