# Roan or grey



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Foal cannot be roan unless a parent is roan. While it's possible the grey mare is hiding roan, I am not sure how common roan is in shires.

Seeing her newborn picture, she is black based, but with her lack of hyperpigmentation, I lean towards not carrying grey.

Many draft breeds carry a sabino-like white pattern which gives them the big blazes, jagged white on the legs, and can include white ticking throughout the body. I suspect that is what may be going on with your filly.

I would be interested in some close up pictures of her head in good light, as that is often one of the first places they show the greying process.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Thanks, I've not got good daylight pics of her head at the mo, I know the dams sire was bay and her Dam was grey, I've had black foals too but they were a darker shade then she was. I've just added a pic of a black foal I've had and the filly in question was born a lot lighter, she is probably what you have said and not the roan people have told me


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

If the dam is sired by a bay, then you know she can't be homozygous for grey. So I think you have yourself a lovely black filly with some interesting markings. She is very striking with all her chrome!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Based on the baby pic and the flank ticking, id say black, no grey, with some sort of sabino ticking that can be common in drafts.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

While her foal picture isn’t typical of a grey foal, normally they are super saturated with color. 

The fading of her mane, tail and look of the coat scream greying out to me. You could color test to be sure, but I would be willing to put money on it.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

*Grey or sabino rather then roan*

Thanks All for your feed back, I may need to colour test to be sure, her new born colour wasnt typical of a grey but was a lot lighter then the blacks we usually have, she was a late born foal in October too and still young and does appear to be changing. Least I can rule out the roan, so if Def not going to end up grey then she is black with sabino ticking. 😊


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Picture if what her back legs are like


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sometimes the Sabino ticking can look like roan. I have a Belgian that has that. The vet keeps listing her as red roan. The ticking is extensive enough she looks like a palomino.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

*Shire filly*

Yeah she is a little odd right now, she doesn't even look black with the ticking either. 
Thanks for your reply


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

She is definitely a sabino. Shires also have the rabicano gene, and based on her tail colour, she could well be a rabicano as well.

Meaning she has them both.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

She does appear to be lightening more, would she have so much of this ticking? She has changed a lot in 6 weeks, her winter coat is coming out but she doesn't look black based now.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Subbing


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

She could be grey but usually it starts more around the face. A lot of blacks are born that mousy grey color. I'm going to vote black sabino


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Agree 100% she is black turning grey or black with ticking caused by her sabino. The mention of the foal color is that foals with grey tend to not be a normal foal color but more of a dark adult color, and she was normal/light even for a foal. But that is not 100% at all.

I'm going with grey, I would think that her face would be lighter, but not uncommon, and I would also think her tail wouldn't be so white with just ticking. So reasons for her not to be grey are not set in stone, and I think reasons for her to not have ticking are.

Anyways, if you're impatient test for grey, and if not then wait and see.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Thanks, I was just updating you all really on her changes, I would of also thought she should be more grey on her face, but like you have all said and what I have read that's not always the case and they all grey out differently. Her tail is very light and looking and most sabinos there tails appear to be dark. I've just had a know it all person keeping on at me and generally not being nice about my filly and is adamant she is roan, but you can't get roan from a non roan parent. Not any one on here, you have all been nice and friendly with your opinions. 
Time will tell or I get her tested but it's interesting watching her change. 
Thank you 
😊


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

How stupid, even if she was roan does it matter? Just ignore busy bodies, I'm also a stickler for correctness but a) make sure I know, and b) keep my mouth shut anyways lol! You could also write up a detailed article about how she is not roan...or test her and tape it to the ladies stall, etc, etc lol!

Anyways. She DOES have sabino, the question is if it's the sabino causing her ticking or not. I haven't found too many drafts with obvious sabino ticking (and it doesn't cause tail white).

Here's regular sabino







here's a horse with extreme ticking caused by sabino







. Sabino almost always is subtle like the first horse.

I do not think she has rabicano.

Updates are good, it's always fun to watch color changes.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Thank you 😊


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I just wanted to throw in another example of a case of sabino ticking for you to compare.

This is my sister's horse. He's a gypsy vanner. He's actually bay with sabino ticking, not roan and not gray. The sabino ticking can definitely do weird things. It makes him look somewhat roan, and it actually makes his bay coat look almost blue in some seasons and lighting. He definitely gets lighter or darker with the seasons, but obviously, the changes have not been progressive like gray.










The foal you have there is very cute! Congratulations! I don't think your foal is roan, maybe in the very early stages of gray, or maybe just sabino. I suggest not wasting your money on a genetic test. You should be able to tell what color your foal is if you just have the patience to wait. Foals can be really tricky to guess color because they do change so much through their first few sheddings, and as others have already said, gray horses do not all always go through the process at the same rate or in the exact same way.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying this thread <3 There are some really smart people here on HF!


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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

kiltsrhott said:


> I just wanted to throw in another example of a case of sabino ticking for you to compare.
> 
> This is my sister's horse. He's a gypsy vanner. He's actually bay with sabino ticking, not roan and not gray. The sabino ticking can definitely do weird things. It makes him look somewhat roan, and it actually makes his bay coat look almost blue in some seasons and lighting. He definitely gets lighter or darker with the seasons, but obviously, the changes have not been progressive like gray.


I've been following this thread to see what more experienced people say, but I want to just comment it's so fascinating to see unusual gene expressions like this, thank you for sharing! What a gorgeous boy!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I remember looking up what a bay roan was as I've found people either say bay roan or lump it in with blue roan which is black... a bay roan is apparently a "purple" roan. Which I can definitely see there 

Note how the sabino ticking is linked with more extreme sabino markings, both the vanner and the paint I posted have white on the body "stretching" from the leg white vs the more traditional "blaze and high socks" that just has the tell tale sabino edging (points on the legs and lip white on the blaze). The Paint has more white, and more ticking. Both of them have "pinto" markings.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Thank you for all of your views, all been helpful, will post more photos if any further changes occur throughout the year 😊


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

She will be grey eventually. 

I have had foals born that were obviously going to be grey, they have been chestnut and black/dark brown (or the foal coat equivalent) some have greyed out earlier than others. 

One filly was bay/brown (by a grey stud, mother bay) she was five before she started to show grey hair around her flanks and eyes. By 10 she was totally grey.


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## rodeomom91 (Apr 9, 2018)

She has the appearance of sabino, not roan or grey.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi all thanks for all your feedback, gave my filly a much needed bath as we now finally have good weather, changed a little again. She is growing into a lovely shire, she is coming up 19 months now 😊


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Do you have a close up of her face? I'll try to get a picture of my mare this weekend that has the ticking so you can see how extensive it can be and that there does not need to be much at all of white expressed.

She really is a pretty girl!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That lighting makes her look that much cooler!


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## Loner (Dec 21, 2017)

Beautiful colt never the less.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi all, I've not posted for a while but update on my filly, recent photo and I had her dna colour tested and they have confirmed she is a grey. Thanks for all your comments


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I can't see that clearly but it looks like there are two lower case g's. That says she is not gray. She would get g from the sire as he is not gray and IF the mother passed gray it would be G but with those results the mother did not pass the gene. As only one parent is gray if it was passed she would be Gg and both letters look the same just not distinct. If you read the bottom under the picture gg = does *not* show progressive silvering with age.


Regardless she is turning out to be a beautiful young lady.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I read back through to refresh and realized I never updated with pictures. These are face shots but you can see the extensive ticking. She is not roan. The second picture is of her two sisters. The closer one has ticking just on the face outside the blaze. The one in the back has no ticking. All are the same cherry red with flaxen and pangare but the mare in the top looks so much lighter from all of the white in her coat. Easy to see on a black as it makes them look gray when that extensive - makes a red look like a palomino. Their winter coat colors are much closer as there is much less white in the winter coat.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My first thought was that I was very surprised that she was grey because she was so mousy colored as a foal. Then I took a closer look at the results of her testing. gg is not grey. GG or Gg would be grey.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

Still under grey and lab results at the top have said she is a grey


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That bottom is just an explanation for the results. Above your mare's name it shows name of horse and gray as that who they are testing and what they are testing for. Next to your mares name it shows her results gg. The bottom portion shows you the the reference used for G(gray) and shows the three different combinations possible. The lower case g is indicating not present. There are two places on every strand for each gene. One place is filled by the sire and one by the dam. The mare is G*g *as she had a bay parent so you know she is not GG. The sire is gg because he has no gray. Your mare passed her *g *and the sire passed his g. That Gg meant the mare could pass either gray (G) or non gray (g) - she passed g (non gray). The way a gene pair works is that the dominant gene is what is expressed on the coat. In this case the dominant is G. What your results show gg not Gg. There is no dominant there to express that gene (gray).


Another example would be the gene for extension (black or red). E is what you have if the horse is black and e is red. A horse has a pair (two). Black is dominant so it is expressed with a capital. Red is recessive so it gets the lower case. A horse can be EE, Ee or ee. A homozygous (same) black is EE. He got E from each parent. A heterozygous (different) is Ee but is still black because E is dominant. He got E from one parent (black) and e from the other (red). The last possible is ee - it is also homozygous but because it is recessive and there must be two lower case present for it to express you don't have to make a distinction of homologous. That is automatically understood. 



Let me dig up some results that came with one of my saddle horses. I'll see if it will scan and post with an explanation.


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## Kaylie 30 (Mar 10, 2018)

OK thanks doesn't help on what her colour is then.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It does. She is likely EE (black) as that is more common than ee (chestnut). The mare does not show signs of ee and I suspect she is EE as well with gray turning her white. To confuse matters more the gene A (agouti) acts on a black based horse (Ee or Ee) to create bay or brown. Had your foal been bay or brown though the body of the foal coat would have been red. A is the dominant and a is the recessive. Your horse's sire is Aa (bay) and I suspect the dam is aa. aa means there is nothing to act on the black so she remains black. If your horse's sire would have been AA you would have had a bay or brown not black because he would only have had A to pass. The foal coat says the baby is black not bay so sire passed his a. Think of gray as the candy coating. It comes along and changes any coat color eventually to white. Your baby would likely be EE aa gg SS. You know the gg because you tested for Gray and that was the result. Sabino puts ticking on drafts that can be that extensive. It can also express as all white or in the most minimal form just a few white hairs on the face, belly or legs. Most typical is a face mark (star, strip, snip or blaze usually with white on the chin) and white on some or all legs even if not high white (over the knee/hock). Shires are exclusively sabino so you know she has SS for that gene. Clydes are too.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Ok lets try to attach these results. One is the email which looks like yours and the other is the result sheet they mailed out. The email shows only he HYPP results but you can see they are in the same format as your results. The spread sheet portion showing Horse Name, Breed and HYPP (which is what I asked them to send) at the top. Then directly below is her name Miss Boston Heathen then Paint Horse and n/n as her results for that test. She could have had any of the following H/H (homozygous - she would pass it) n/H (heterozygous or carrier - there is a 50% chance she would pass it) or n/n (she does not carry the mutation and cannot pass it). Her results are n/n. The explanation portion is at the bottom under Result Guide.



On the sheet they mailed it shows the different things they can test and the only spaces filled out are Red/Black factor - her results are Ee and there is a comment next to it saying she is heterozygous (she can pass either E or e which we found out later when she had a palomino colt) and under Genetic Disorders the test for HYPP. Her results again show n/n.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Try again file was to big. Now invalid file. Can I say I H*TE Adobe. Let me work on this.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

One last time. WOOT! Not all the same direction or the original order I intended but here they are. One note - Do you see where it says phenotype? That is what the gene expresses on the surface. It is a result of the genotype. If your geneotype is EE or Ee your horse's phenotype is black. Add in dominant Agouti and it becomes Bay (or brown) which would be shown on the next line. a phenotype of sorrel or chestnut would be expressed by the genotype ee. No matter what Agouti is present it does not show on a sorrel or chestnut horse. It only becomes important when breeding. 



Example. I had a palomino stallion when bred to a black mare the baby was bay. The bay could not come from the dam as she was black (tested Eeaa). He carried it from several generations back where it had been passed from pally to pally. Because it came from further back than shown we did not expect it. because all palominos are ee the agouti does not show on them.


In post #37 that should be (EE or Ee) not (Ee or Ee)


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Kaylie 30 said:


> OK thanks doesn't help on what her colour is then.



Well, she is definitely black. And you know that it is probably sabino causing white hairs and not grey.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Exactly. So what this means in practical terms, is she will NOT turn white, and will always look roughly the way she looks now- which is cool!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Kaylie 30 said:


> Still under grey and lab results at the top have said she is a grey


But here are the results for your filly.









The portion that you just showed explains what the results mean

GG is homozygous grey will turn grey and always produce grey
Gg is heterozygous will still be grey 50% chance of throwing it to offspring
gg is non grey

none of my horses are grey. If I were to test them for grey, all of their results would be gg.


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