# You Can Lead someone to Water but You Can’t Make Them Think



## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

While I believe that an adult can make their own choice, I also think helmets should be mandatory for anyone under age 18. I am surprised the barn doesn't have a policy enforcing that. 
Not much you can do otherwise, aside from insisting she wear one if you are giving her a lesson.
Actually, while you are an instructor, maybe you should set an example for your students and wear a helmet while riding at the barn? Kids definitely look up to their mentors


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately, it often takes either an injury or a close call before the alarm bells go off. If something happens to her daughter, no one will cry louder than the mother and she'll be looking for someone to blame. Perhaps the BO should be informed. In ON I believe it is the law to wear a helmet if under 18 plus boots with a defined heel of 1" or more.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I nearly always ride with a helmet. Sunday I was taking a well broke but frisky mare out for a ride in the field. I nearly didn't wear a helmet, but grabbed it at the last second. I haven't come off in years. Well, my frisky horse was being a brat, I tried to turn her on what looked like good footing and she hit a patch of mud under the grass, slid out and slammed down flat on her side. My whole right side is bruised and my helmet slammed into the ground, preventing what would surely have been a nasty concussion.

Any parent that does not insist on basic safety gear for their child is extremely foolish.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

It's pure ignorance that allows a parent to act like that. You see the same parents letting their kids ride bikes without helmets, or they have helmets on with the chin strap unattached.

Any BO that doesn't have a very strong, clear policy in writing posted for all to see that all riders under 18 are required to wear helmets and all riders regardless of age are encouraged to wear them is asking for a lawsuit. As an attorney, I'd advise BOs to have extra helmets available for riders who don't bring their own, and never ignore a situation when they see a child without one on. It's the only way to protect your assets and the brains of kids whose parents are too foolish to do it for them.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Agree with all posts here. I never go without my helmet on any horse. I was not a fan of helmets in my early years, but fear of my own green broke horse's antics caused me to wear one at all times. Now I wear a helmet no matter what. My mother has only been riding for a couple years and always wears a helmet. We are the helmet wearing (and I am the english) freaks of our horse neighborhood and proud of it! We don't care what other people say about it-we always wear helmets. Needless to say, my local arena's royal court was discreetly unhappy with their state flag carrier's helmet wearing ways, although they said and pretended they were OK with it. I was the only one on a court of five girls (three of them riding hot insane rearing barrel horses) who wore a helmet. IMO, climbing on any horse, especially ones like they rode, without a helmet is asking for a death certificate.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

ecasey-I just noticed that you live in Southern France. LUCKY!!! It must be so gorgeous! I want to live somewhere green like that instead of an endless dirt, sand, rock and cactus desert. Sorry for being OT!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ANOTHER "Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is an idiot" thread?

If you want safety, don't ride horses. If you ride, you accept a certain amount of risk. How much? No one can quantify it because there are too many variables. If you jump because it is fun, or you ride bareback because it is fun, or if you ride where the ground is rocky and any fall can cripple or kill you because it is fun, then you are taking risks for the fun of it. If you allow you kid to do any of those things, you accept the risk of their dying...for the fun of riding!

I almost always wear a helmet, but I dislike people who call others idiots for making a different decision about how much risk to accept. 

I know people who have ridden for 50+ years, often on green horses and in rough terrain, without helmets...and who did so without busting their heads. In fact, I know folks whose family has done so for generations without ever having a head injury.

There are studies that support the idea that we are at greater risk while working with horses while on the ground than we are in many forms of riding. I've hit the ground more times trying to calm a scared horse while I was on foot than I have from my spooky mare bolting, spinning or spooking. Yet how many of us insist on wearing a helmet any time we pick up a lead rope? How many parents insist their kids wear helmets any time they are in a corral or pasture?
_
"Statistics are just statistics and are of no comfort when it’s your child that becomes 1 in a million._"

Yep! So don't ride. Don't go hiking in the desert - I once heard a rattle, and finally found the source coiled up between my feet! Don't ride motorcycles. I spent my adult life flying in jet fighters, strapped to an ejection seat - don't do that! Heck, I watched an F-4 explode in a ball of flame taking off out of George AFB, CA once, and then strapped in and took off the other runway!

Statistics are the only meaningful way to discuss risk. If the chance of injury is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000, it will still suck if your kid is that one...but no one can avoid that level of risk.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I agree to some extent. I understand the barn owners need to protect themselves from a lawsuit, and I also understand that we have freedom of choice. I believe that kids should be required to wear helmets when riding until the age of 18. After that, legally, the barn owner is at very little risk of a lawsuit, so it's not their problem what they decide to do. I can easily see a barn owner being sued for not requiring helmets for minors. If your kid ended up being the one in a million, who would you most likely go after? The barn owner or the horse owner if the horse is owned by a boarder. It seems stupid, but you always have to look out for your own interests. We live in a very sue happy society now a days.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

Well I guess I'm the idiot then...

I don't wear a helmet. I was not taught to ride with one, and I was 4 when I started lessons. 

I do own a helmet. I took lessons later in life and it was mandated by the facility that all people wore them. 

When I am riding my personal horse I do not wear one. Whenever I ride a strange horse or if I feel that my personal horse may act up I put the helmet on. 

When I go with friends I make them wear a helmet always. 

It's a double standard, yes. Yes, I understand the risk of riding. Yes I understand the choice I make whenever I mount without a helmet. Yes I accept any and all potential situations that may occur when riding a horse. 

But in the end, it's my choice.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

While I understand everyone's concerns about children wearing helmets I also feel that the drama and judgment get way overblown.

I come from rodeo country where the lead line classes have 18month old walking around barrels all the way up to 7, 8, 9 year olds running full speed in the event. None of these kids wear helmets. I feel no judgment toward their parents for this.

What I do feel is grateful that there are still families that spend the weekend with their kids and share their love of horses. I see happy kids and proud mom and dads. I see successful families who are raising their kids right. Its amazing. 

Its ok to recognize that there is room for improvement but I think its important to take the good with the bad.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I don’t really care whether adults wear helmets or not, however as a parent myself I know that children are little bundles of emotion and have not been on this earth long enough to develop judgement . 
 This 11 year old I am talking about is bowing to peer pressure from the other kids in her riding group and her mother is going along with it. 
I still believe that the parent is ulitimately responsiblefor the protection of them in any way possible until they are old enough to make rational decisions.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Actually, while you are an instructor, maybe you should set an example for your students and wear a helmet while riding at the barn? Kids definitely look up to their mentors


I just wanted to give a thumbs up to this. 

Some instructors and some barns require that those under the age of 18 wear a helmet while taking lessons or riding. To "back that up" then the instructors and barn owners (adults) should be expected to wear helmets to set a good example for the kids. 

My English riding instructor requires I wear a helmet when I ride (and I am well over 18). And she wears a helmet herself, even while she is just on the ground while I am riding. 

When we were younger, my mother made us all wear helmets. And she got one for herself too. 

So to the OP --> If you feel strongly that all children should wear helmets, then you should don one yourself to set a good example.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The gal who posted the thread is aware of the dangers. She is just trying to understand why someone would risk a head injury when it could possibly be prevented by the use of a helmet. Everything in life has risk but we can't lock our kids up to keep them safe. There are mothers who can't say no to their kids because they want to be pals instead of having a parent - child relationship.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Chasin Ponies said:


> ...I still believe that the parent is ulitimately responsiblefor the protection of them in any way possible until they are old enough to make rational decisions.


That is what the parent is doing. You dislike how the parent assess and handles the risk. That does not make the parent an idiot or irrational. Most of the people I've known who ride have ridden their entire lives without a head injury, and without anyone in their family injuring their head.

Do you complain about the irrational behavior of parents who let their kids learn to jump horses? Do you complain about parents who let their kids use English saddles, when Australian saddles have more safety features? Do you complain about parents who let their kids ride without body protectors, when a smashed back can cripple their kid for life? Do you complain about parents who let their kids climb trees? Do you complain about parents who let their kids ride dirt bikes? 

After all, "_Statistics are just statistics and are of no comfort when it’s your child that becomes 1 in a million._"


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I never wore a helmet as a minor. I ran around through trails helmetless, no cell phone and sometimes no shoes, and usually by myself. I don't think it made my parents irresponsible or foolish, I just didn't. I never thought about minimizing risk when I was doing a whole lot of stupid things.Now, I always wear one on a client's horse, for liability reasons, but that's about it. Are helmets a good, safe idea? Of course. But it's my choice.

And it's up to the individual parents to make that call for their kids, though I think that property owners and instructors would be foolish if they didn't make helmets mandatory for minors in today's sue-happy world.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

While I think it's important to wear a helmet, unfortunately the helmet debate will be raging on for generations to come. Some people don't like wearing one, some people flip out every time they see somebody not wearing one and start hollering up and down. Honestly the best you can do is state your piece, and then if the person refuses to listen, it is on their heads (literally and figuratively) if they become that one in a million. 

Unfortunately any sport runs the risk of injury. I think that a $50 helmet is cheap insurance against what could be a lifetime of medical costs and heartbreak. But I choose this for myself- I don't have the authority to choose it for other people. 

To me, the importance is WHAT you are protecting. A traumatic brain injury can mean the difference between living a normal life and being a vegetable. You can heal from a broken leg/arm, cracked ribs, a bad fall- you might have lasting effects, but typically they are not going to change how life is lived. My brain is how I make my living and survive. I insure my car, my apartment, my belongings, so insuring that my brain is protected (so far as it can be, no safety method is 100%) is important to me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> ANOTHER "Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is an idiot" thread?
> 
> If you want safety, don't ride horses. If you ride, you accept a certain amount of risk. How much? No one can quantify it because there are too many variables. If you jump because it is fun, or you ride bareback because it is fun, or if you ride where the ground is rocky and any fall can cripple or kill you because it is fun, then you are taking risks for the fun of it. If you allow you kid to do any of those things, you accept the risk of their dying...for the fun of riding!
> 
> ...


I find this an odd post coming from you bsms because I don't think I've ever seen a photograph of you on a horse where you aren't wearing a helmet?
I've had a head injury that would have been much less severe if I'd been wearing one so nothing would get me on a horse now without one
Apart from my own family or anyone riding one of my horses I really don't get involved with people's choices as far as helmets are concerned because it's their head, their brain, their risk, their problem if it gets damaged
However
I would never in a million years give reasons or excuses to try to illustrate or persuade anyone that wearing a helmet is a pointless exercise because if I convince them of that and they do end up with a head injury that might have been greatly reduced by wearing a helmet then I have been partly responsible for it.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

> I find this an odd post coming from you bsms because I don't think I've ever seen a photograph of you on a horse where you aren't wearing a helmet?


Its even odder because I don't think I have seen a post by him that didn't include a _photograph_ of him and Mia. lol - im just teasing. 

Actually while I disagree with bsms on many other threads I thought the fact that he is a helmet-wearer but is a non-judgmental one was pretty right on! Its not a matter of what a person chooses to do but respecting others, no need to call be idiots who wont drink just because they make a different choice.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Roux said:


> Its even odder because I don't think I have seen a post by him that didn't include a _photograph_ of him and Mia. lol - im just teasing.
> 
> Actually while I disagree with bsms on many other threads I thought the fact that he is a helmet-wearer but is a non-judgmental one was pretty right on! Its not a matter of what a person chooses to do but respecting others, no need to call be idiots who wont drink just because they make a different choice.


I always wear a helmet and I am non-judgmental too - however you will not see me posting anything that sounds as if I'm trying to justify other peoples decisions to not wear one by pointing out all the reasons why they shouldn't be bothered to protect their heads
As far as I'm concerned if someone doesn't wear a helmet its for no other reason than they don't want too and I respect their choice


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I find bsms' post odd because he says no one can quantify the risk because there are too many variables, but on every other helmet thread he has quoted numbers.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I always wear a helmet and I am non-judgmental too - however you will not see me posting anything that sounds as if I'm trying to justify other peoples decisions to not wear one...


I don't rock climb. I wouldn't consider it. But I also don't call people idiots for loving something I wouldn't think of doing. My brother-in-law rides motorcycles in city traffic daily, and will pass thru Phoenix on the weekend for the sheer FUN of riding a motorcycle...knowing that a single fall could cost him his life. He refuses to get on a horse, however, because 'horses are dangerous'!

I think too many people think helmet=safety. It is just one item, and maybe not the most important. Riding bareback increases risk, so why do it? Because it is fun? So what - it isn't as safe! People jump, and let their kids learn to jump, but statistically, jumping is probably the most dangerous thing you can do with horses. The risk of injury during jumping is far greater than the protection one receives from a helmet, so everyone who is jumping with a helmet is taking more risk than someone riding the flats without a helmet...yet how many post threads here saying no kid should be allowed to jump?

I like my helmet. It fits me fine, and is cool enough (in temperature, at least) for me to wear on a 1 hour ride. If I rode 3+ hours in the Arizona sun, I'd probably grab a cowboy hat instead. But if folks want others to convert, maybe they should simply explain why they like using a helmet instead of calling people 'idiots' and saying all kids should be required to wear one. You'd be surprised at how hard it is to make a sale to someone when you start by calling him an idiot!

But if we are going to be serious about safety and horses, then we need to look at where and how people are injured using statistics. That is the only way to see if doing X will help, or if it helps, how much it helps. In 6 years of riding, I've had one fall & one jump off my horse's back from a standstill - that being when my saddle slipped and I knew things were not going to get better. During the fall, I was wearing a cloth ball cap and didn't hurt my head. During the jump, I was wearing a helmet and didn't hurt my head. Yet that anecdotal evidence is worthless for analyzing risk. I've also been sent flying, and hit the ground hard in places with things that could hurt me, while trying to deal with a horse FROM THE GROUND. I've had 4 of those, so for me, it seems I would be better off taking my helmet off when I get ON, instead of removing it when I get OFF! And yes, there are studies that indicate we may be at greater risk when handling horses than we are in some types of riding.

When I see threads saying you need to fall 12 times to be an experienced rider, I cringe. ANY fall can be your last. There is an element of luck to every fall. I think too many people put a helmet on and then accept falling, when they would be better off to analyze each fall and figure out what the cause was and how to avoid another one.

And when people want to jump, I'm fine with it. I just find it very hypocritical for jumpers to then complain about the low safety standards of the typical western rider. I think everyone who rides should THINK about the dangers and decide for themselves how much risk they will accept in return for how much fun.

And since I rarely post without getting a picture of Mia in ( :wink: )...this was on a day when I forgot my helmet:








​


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

I have broken an arm, a leg, a tailbone, and several ribs playing on horses. So understand I know all well the risk involved in riding. I have also suffered a few concussions between HS, and Collegiate football (guess who was wearing a helmet....)

My daughter wears a helmet because she is 28mo, and as a parent I feel obligated to make her wear it. In 10yrs Im not sure how I will feel about it. I will say however, that though I have seen a few TBIs (Traumatic Brain Injury) related to horse falls, I worry more about a broken neck, and no helmet on the planet will stop that. 

I would never give some one a hard time about wearing a helmet even though I do not, but at the same time I know all to well that most parents feel like they are doing an adequate job of raising their kids and sometimes they need to learn the hard way that S^!# happens.

All you can do is voice your opinion, and let it ride.....

Also..... If I were a barn manager/owner I would require helmets for anyone under 18. From a liability standpoint I feel like you would be a fool not to. but to call someone an idiot because their kid doesn't wear a helmet is silly.

Jim

Jim


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> I find bsms' post odd because he says no one can quantify the risk because there are too many variables, but on every other helmet thread he has quoted numbers.


No one can quantify the risk on any given ride. No one can quantify the risk on a future ride. But with statistics, you can see where the risks are greatest, and how effective certain measures are at reducing overall risks.

But no - for a given horse and a given rider on a given day, no one can give a hard number about the risk.


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## Luvs Horses (Jan 9, 2014)

For some reason this makes me think of motorcyclists debating helmets.

Both my Mom and Dad ride motorcycles. They are very safety conscious and always have protective gear. 
Helmets are a good safety measure but is only part of what a person needs when riding. 
A awesome, breathable, Teflon jacket saves a motorcyclists hide if the bike drops and they are sent sliding down the road. Thick blue jeans a must for this reason as well. Biker boots are designed to protect feet n ankles. Good gloves to protect hands.

I cringe seeing folks on bikes with loose tank shorts and flip flops. 

Yeah it is their choice and yes they are playing with fire by thumbing their noses up at safety. The best us safety conscious folks can do is politely and respectfully explain our view at the same time respecting that it is their choice to do as they choose.

With kids involved it changes though. Kids do what is fun and are not grasping the consequences until after the fact. It is the responsibility of the adults in charge to make sure the kids are following safety when riding. 

I agree with most of the posts. I also agree that it is rude to call someone an idiotic for having a different view even if it is dumbbell ad that just makes them shut u out. 
Sorry for any misspell as I am on my ornery phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> During the fall, I was wearing a cloth ball cap and didn't hurt my head. During the jump, I was wearing a helmet and didn't hurt my head. Yet that anecdotal evidence is worthless for analyzing risk.


Your missing one very important piece of information bsms:

Your helmet can possibly prevent your skull from cracking against a rock, in the event your skull hits a rock. Your soft ball cap _cannot_. Neither will a cowboy hat.

Plain and simple *FACT* to reduce risk, that cannot be disputed. 

Whether or not someone _chooses_ to reduce their risk with a helmet, well that's their call. 



bsms said:


> And yes, there are studies that indicate we may be at greater risk when handling horses than we are in some types of riding.


Hence why the first thing I do when I get to my trailer is put on my helmet. :wink: And it's the last thing I do (take it off) when I leave. 

You can very easily get kicked in the head when bending over to pick a rock out of a hoof (for example). My helmet stays on, even when I am just on the ground around horses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The people who avoided serious injury and a hospital visit because they were wearing a helmet don't appear on statistic lists therefore they are unreliable
The same goes for people who escaped injury because they were wearing a safety vest
Respecting someone's choice to not wear a helmet is one thing and I support that - but doing or saying anything to persuade them not to wear one IMO is irresponsible


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

LOL that's more like bsms!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

beau159 said:


> Your missing one very important piece of information bsms:
> 
> Your helmet can possibly prevent your skull from cracking against a rock, in the event your skull hits a rock. Your soft ball cap _cannot_. Neither will a cowboy hat.
> 
> Plain and simple *FACT* to reduce risk, that cannot be disputed...


I've not disputed it. However, how much you have reduced your risk depends on how likely you are to fall. From the statistics I've seen, it is likely a helmet reduces the chance of injury in a fall by 50-80%. However, if you do something that increases the chance of falling by more than 5 fold - such as jumping - then you are accepting a greater risk of head injury while wearing a helmet than you have on the flat without one.

I like the idea of a 50-80% reduction, even if my risk of falling in the first place is very low. So I wear a helmet. But some people do not like wearing a helmet. If they are a western rider riding the flats, their risk of head injury is already less than that of a jumper wearing a helmet - so who is "an idiot"?

I'd say neither. I think it is normal to accept some level of risk in return for a certain amount of pleasure. I also think it is normal for different people to be willing to accept different levels of risk, and to take pleasure from different aspects of things. I can have fun riding without jumping. I don't feel a need to barrel race to have fun either. I usually ride alone, so I have no social needs to be met. I get no pleasure out of riding without a helmet - but others do. I may not identify with them, but I can respect them.



jaydee said:


> The people who avoided serious injury and a hospital visit because they were wearing a helmet don't appear on statistic lists therefore they are unreliable...


Actually, the statistics come from reductions in injuries in things like Pony Clubs, or in sports like eventing. If you have the same number participating, but you have 50% fewer injuries when wearing helmets, then it is reasonable to guess helmets had a big part in that reduction.

Surveys have been taken to find out what people were doing at the time they were injured, and that gives us a pretty good idea of relative risk. Folks who study riding accidents are drawn to jumping events like buzzards to carrion. In eventing, falls at the fence accounted for 96% of injuries between 2004-2008, vs 4% on the flats. That is a 24:1 ratio.

A profile of horse riding injuries in South Africa:_The conclusion to Sorli’s (2000) five-year study was that head injuries and other serious traumatic injuries occur with equestrian activities and the use of appropriate safety equipment, including helmets should be promoted. Abu-Zidan andRao (2003)found that those with a helmet had significantly less incidence of intracranial injuries than those not wearing one and Fantus and Fildes (2007) found a fourfold greater mortality for the non-helmeted rider compared to those wearing a helmet._

_ Of all the horse riding activities, according to Silver (2002) and Paix (1999) jumping is most likely to produce an injury, and according to Paix (1999), the cross country phase of eventing is more than 70 times as dangerous as horse riding in general, with an overall injury rate of one per 14 hours of cross country riding..._

_ ...Table 4.9 shows that most injuries occurred whilst jumping (63.8%) and the least occurred during flatwork (10.3%). ["Hacking" was 25.9%]..._

_ ...Helmet use was negatively associated with head injuries. Showing that helmet use is effective in preventing head injuries. This could be due to improved helmet protective design, compulsory wearing of helmets that meet safety standards at competitions and the majority of riders wearing helmets when jumping, which is where the most severe injuries occur (Section 5.3.2.2.4). Moss, Wan and Whitlock (2002) review of findings between 1971 and 1991 found that helmet use is assisting in reducing the incidence of skull fractures and severity of the injury._

_ Fantus and Fildes (2007) found a fourfold greater mortality for the non-helmeted rider and Abu-Zidan and Rao (2003) comparatively found that those with a helmet had significantly less incidence of intracranial injuries than those who did not..._​http://ir.dut.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10321/537/Catlin_2010.pdf?sequence=1

One cannot precisely quantify risks using statistics, but one can reasonably conclude both that a helmet helps protect your noggin if you fall, and that jumping is associated with a much higher risk of falling.

Of course, most folks don't read studies. They base their risk assessment on the experiences of folks they know. I've met plenty of riders who have ridden for decades without a head injury, and who haven't known anyone who had a serious head injury. I know folks who haven't had an serious head injuries in generations of riding. So someone like myself might rate the risk of head injury as low. Frankly, I'd rather ride an Australian saddle without a helmet than an English saddle with one. That is based on my experience and the people I know. That doesn't make me stupid. And because I am actually very safety conscious, I normally ride western or Australian WITH a helmet.

I have never encouraged anyone to stop wearing a helmet. I have argued that calling people names is not a good way to advance a cause, and that some people will cheerfully take risks that I will not.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I rode for 30+ years without wearing a helmet (other than in competitions and hunting where it was compulsory) then went out one day for a quiet hack with friends and ended up in hospital with a fractured skull
Basing any decision on the theory 'That it's never happened to me yet' is not very bright


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

OP I've never heard of a barn not requiring people under 18 to wear helmets. I've always wore a helmet when I was under that age for liability reasons. 

That being said, it's her child, her problem sadly. Where I'm from loads of kids ride without helmets, their parents know the risks and accept it. But honestly, why worry yourself over someone else? Just because their child doesn't have a helmet on does not make them bad or evil (or any person who doesn't wear a helmet), you can disagree but in the end it's not your problem, nor your decision. 

I personally wear a helmet when taking lessons because I respect that the owner has a liability. I wear a helmet on certain horses and on some I don't, it's a personal preference for me depending on what I'm doing and the horse. My worst accident to date was a fractured spine, collar bone and hip and I was wearing a helmet. Not all accidents are preventable, that's a fact of life. My point is do I agree with a kid not wearing a helmet? No. Absolutely they should. Am I going to condemn the parents and people who don't use helmets? No their life, their body their actions. Not my business nor for me to judge.


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## MyBoySi (Dec 1, 2011)

Personally I wear a helmet, this will be the first year actually. Do I care if other people wear a helmet? Nope, it's your head. 

My daughter will wear a helmet (she's only 6 days old so jumping the gun a bit lol) as long as I'm in control of her head. Do I care if other people's children wear a helmet? Nope, their choice. 

Personally I feel for the $30 investment it's worth it if it might prevent something happening. 

That being said I didn't wear a helmet before I had a husband/child. Having them made me rethink my own safety enough to take the precautionary measure. 

It's your head, your choice (or your child's head) period. Do I concern myself with what you choose? Nope.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Out come the statistics.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...Basing any decision on the theory 'That it's never happened to me yet' is not very bright


Basing our behavior on the theory that "anything can happen to me" would prevent us from ever doing anything. I could be killed in a car crash when I drive later this afternoon to do volunteer work, but I think I will chance it. And I'll drive my Miata because it is fun, although my truck would protect me more.

Later, I hope to go for a ride. That could hurt me too. I'll wear a helmet, but skip a body protector. If I ride Mia, I will be a greater risk than if I ride Trooper...so why should I ever choose Mia over Trooper?

That is kind of the point. Just about everything we do has risk associated with it, and rewards. What constitutes a reward for one isn't a reward for another. I could go the rest of my life without touching a motorcycle and be happy. That would make my BIL miserable. But my BIL won't even enter a corral with horses because he thinks they are too dangerous.

I wear a helmet because it improves safety, and because it has no downside for me - I get no pleasure out of NOT wearing it! But some DO enjoy riding without a helmet. I don't know why, but I'm not going to call them idiots for enjoying something that I don't enjoy. My sister & BIL may take a motorcycle out for a 300+ mile ride this weekend...and call it fun! YGBSM! Make one mistake, and you can lose a leg, or your life! What is fun about that? But of course, they think the same of me when I get on a horse...:?


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Those of you who don't wear helmets, do you wear seatbelts? If so, I don't see why. Same risk. Your head injury might be your fault or it might be the fault of someone else (some_thing_ else), but the FACT is that wearing a helmet will protect your skull from most falls and not wearing one won't. Why gamble with your brain? Just because it looks cooler? You've only got one, you know. Once you damage that one, it's all over.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Ecasy I really don't wear a seat belt. Same thing imo. I will make anyone under 18 wear them but I personally hate them. Believe me I know I've only got one brain, but it's MY brain. If I get killed/crippled due to my bad choices.... well that's Darwinism in action. 

I also would like to point out that even WITH a helmet you can still get massive brain injuries. I knew a woman one time who even wearing a grade A helmet sustained severe cerebral hemorrhages even from a simple fall. I'm not saying don't wear a helmet but respect others choices and let them do what they want with their body and life. 

Or should I not get any tattoos/piercings because of the risks involved with surgeries, MRI's and other tests and infections? And because of this should we judge the people who do have them?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Incitatus32 said:


> Believe me I know I've only got one brain, but it's MY brain. If I get killed/crippled due to my bad choices.... well that's Darwinism in action.


I really, really didn't want to comment any further on this thread because the helmet debate is always a huge can of worms, but....

How would your death affect your mother? Father? Siblings? Significant other?


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Honestly with my family and the culture I live in it would probably amount to "bet she won't be making that mistake again." But seriously, my family knows that I'm an adult, I'm going to make my own decisions and they don't take it too personally. People do loads of risky things like smoke, drink, and other risky behavior and know that it will affect our family. Now that being said I've told them that if because of my bad decision I'm crippled or an inconvenience they need to shoot me then and there like they would a horse. But this is a separate issue imo. I was referring mainly to people outside of my loved ones, my family respects my decision and is at terms with it; I wouldn't ride without a helmet ever if they didn't say "It's okay we don't care".


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

ecasey said:


> Those of you who don't wear helmets, do you wear seatbelts? If so, I don't see why. Same risk. Your head injury might be your fault or it might be the fault of someone else (some_thing_ else), but the FACT is that wearing a helmet will protect your skull from most falls and not wearing one won't. Why gamble with your brain? Just because it looks cooler? You've only got one, you know. Once you damage that one, it's all over.


I actually don't wear a seatbelt most of the time. I live in the only state that doesn't have a seatbelt law (there is only one for minors.) A lot of people I know here don't wear them. To me, this thread isn't about whether or not people should wear helmets, it's about whether minors should wear them. I don't have kids, so I don't really feel that I can offer any opinion except that an instructor or property owner would be foolish not to insist on a helmet rule for minors. On their own property and on their own horses, it becomes the parent's call.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Incitatus32 said:


> Now that being said I've told them that if because of my bad decision I'm crippled or an inconvenience they need to shoot me then and there like they would a horse.


Did you mean that literally? :shock:


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

ecasey said:


> Those of you who don't wear helmets, do you wear seatbelts? If so, I don't see why. Same risk. Your head injury might be your fault or it might be the fault of someone else (some_thing_ else), but the FACT is that wearing a helmet will protect your skull from most falls and not wearing one won't. Why gamble with your brain? Just because it looks cooler? You've only got one, you know. Once you damage that one, it's all over.


I wear a seat belt because the police will give me a ticket if I don't. Police have a bit of a hard time pulling a horse over. :lol:

Hope this lightens the topic a little.

If not, I'm sorry.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ForeverSunRider said:


> Police have a bit of a hard time pulling a horse over. :lol:


On the contrary, you can get a DUI on a horse. 

They can and will "pull you over". :lol:


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## jackboy (Jul 8, 2012)

I myself don't wear a helmet ever in all of my life and get this I Still break horses the cowboy way I know I'm evil and an idiot for not wearing a helmet


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I always wear a helmet now but I didn't for years. I started wearing one because I got my first green horse and felt my risk of a fall was much greater than it used to be. But I wear a helmet on well broke horses now too, because I am comfortable it in and I know I could crash on any horse, not just the greenie. And yes, I DO know of people who have had brain injuries from coming off a horse.....at least two that I can think of off-hand. So it does actually happen out in the real world, unfortunately. To me, the potential benefit outweighs the inconvenience of wearing a helmet.

But I really don't get why this is always a controversial topic. Just take care of your own body and let everyone else determine how to take care of theirs. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves as I've made it for myself. As for other adults and their children, to steal a quote from another thread........"not my circus, not my monkeys." :lol:


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## Houston (Apr 15, 2012)

I also don't understand why this remains a controversial topic... 

I always wear a helmet while riding, but that's me. If I see someone without a helmet, it doesn't even cross my mind; I have my own things to worry about and take care of! 

Unless I see an act of deliberate abuse or negligence (and no, I don't consider a parent not making their kid wear a helmet abuse or negligence), or one that is dangerous to the people around them, you will not see me scold someone else based of their choice.


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## Chokolate (Nov 24, 2012)

I always ride with a helmet. I would never not! Horses are, among other things, unpredictable and dangerous animals. If I can minimise the chance of injury to myself and those around me, be that wearing a helmet, wearing shoes, not having people standing on both sides...I will always do it!

I understand that it's the adult's choice whether or not they're going to wear one, but it makes no sense to me that they would choose not to. The arguments I've heard for not wearing one generally come down to 'It's uncomfortable' 'I can't be bothered with the trouble' and 'I was hurt but I still don't wear one.' None of these make sense to be, it's going to be a whole lot more painful and a lot more trouble when you have your head split open and permanent brain damage, and if you were hurt and you still don't wear one...I have no words. HOWEVER, even though I don't understand it, if you've weighed out the risks for yourself and you're not going to wear one, I won't shun you or not let you ride with me or tell you off for it. It's your choice.

As for kids, every child should wear one, always. They're not yet old enough to make that decision for themselves.


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## oobiedoo (Apr 28, 2012)

I feel the same way about children wearing helmets, they're my old enough to make the decision,kinda like the car seat,child restraints laws.
I was surprised when I stopped in at an AQHA circuit show today and the really little children weren't required to wear helmets in the lead line class.
Our local shows require all children even in lead line classes to wear a helmet.Being on a lead line is no guarantee that a horse won't do anything to unseat a young rider,I've seen it happen.Cowboy hats are adorable on little ones but not cute enough to risk it to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

people are as dumb as stumps. there's a lot of regret in life and I for one try to err in the side of caution, particularly when it comes to children. 

I don't know why helmets aren't mandatory in lesson situations. frankly I think it wouldn't hurt if they were mandatory for motorcycle riders too (and I'm glad I'm anonymous because I'm sure there are some who would want to tar and feather me for saying this) but when I see people, particularly young people with their whole lifes ahead of them riding anything without a helmet where a helmet might save their bacon, I get the willies. 

I know there's a lot of serendipity when it comes to luck in life and I also know we make quite a bit of it. So some people don't ever wear helmets and they're golden and they go from cradle to grave in one piece. And there are others who end up in not such a good place. 

I know life takes a long time to live. You can't avoid everything and there is some destiny involved too...but why not at least try if not for your own peace of mind then for the sake of the kids, to protect the little skulls that hold their brains in there. I mean...really. THAT is a no brainer to me. But like I said, some people are as dumb as stumps..


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

horseluvr2524 said:


> Did you mean that literally? :shock:


Really not trying to be off topic but metaphorically yeah haha. I never want to put that strain on my family if I can't care for myself. I was solely dependent on their care for darn near 6 months (still am to an extent) and I hated the entire time (it was not for a brain injury but for a spine/knee injury). I'm a bad patient. I couldn't move and still managed to crawl around the house to do things for myself (even crawled outside a few times and they had to call my doctor to drag my butt home from the barn) so I can imagine the stupid stunts I would try if I was like that for a long time. 

Now do I think they'd shoot me? Well..... I don't think so :lol: but I wouldn't stay with them that's for sure, I'd probably put myself in a nice home or hospital. Then again if I'm so bad I can't make that call and put that strain on them then heck yeah I'd hope they'd put me out of my misery. But I'm really independent and I don't take no as an answer so that might be why I think the way I do!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When someone does rock climbing, are they stupid? Or do they get pleasure from something I do not understand? 

When jogging in the desert, I never take a cell phone with me. It could save my life someday, in case of a heart attack or a really bad fall, and it weighs almost nothing...but I would HATE jogging with a cell phone. Am I dumb as a stump, or do I find much of my pleasure in being free from modern society as I jog? It weighs almost nothing, it could potentially save my life...but hell will freeze over before I take one with me on a run! I don't even take any water with me. It seems a part of my pleasure comes from it being ME against the DESERT, without any backup.

Wearing a helmet doesn't spoil the pleasure of riding for me....but then, many runners wouldn't be bothered by having a cell phone and a pint of water with them while jogging in a desert. Why denigrate someone for taking pleasure from something that we do not?


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## Janskee (Nov 16, 2013)

I'd say at least half of the adults at my barn don't wear a helmet, including my instructor (I've seen her wear one just a few times, once when riding my horse... hmmm, maybe I should take that as a sign, lol), but I always do. The one and only time I fell off a horse in my 15 years of riding, I hit my head (helmeted) and am sure I would have been injured badly if I hadn't been wearing it. Actually, I usually wear a helmet when working with horses on the ground, too. While the risk is not higher than while riding, it is still significant. A woman at my barn was walking her horse when he slipped and fell, pulling her down and hitting her head. She was injured badly, but her doctor said her helmet saved her life. I wouldn't tell other adults what to do, but people are often bad at gauging risk and so information can help people make more informed decisions. Yes, riding in an English saddle increases the risk of injury about 70%, but I still choose to ride in an English saddle with that knowledge. If people know the risks of not wearing a helmet and choose to do so anyway, then at least they are making an informed choice.

I feel a bit differently about children, though, as our role as adults is to protect them because they are not able to make those informed choices because of the lack of a fully mature brain and abstract reasoning. Also, nobody has mentioned this yet, but children are actually more vulnerable to head injuries when they ride than adults, due to the larger size of their heads relative to their body size. 

Now, as far as the statistics go, when injured in a fall where they hit their head, only 5% of people wearing helmets suffered a brain injury compared to 60% of those not wearing a helmet. That is a 12-fold increased risk of brain injury, or 1200%. Yes, there are many factors that go into safety around horses, but it seems to me like this is a huge one, especially for kids.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I let other parents determine acceptable risk for their kids in exchange for them doing likewise for me. Thus my nephew was allowed to race dirt bikes as a teen, breaking multiple bones in the process. Not my kid, not my choice.

"_ when injured in a fall where they hit their head, only 5% of people wearing helmets suffered a brain injury compared to 60% of those not wearing a helmet. That is a 12-fold increased risk of brain injury, or 1200%._"

I hadn't seen that statistic, although it seem plausible. However, someone riding deep in the saddle, western or dressage style, is more likely to land on their back than someone jumping with a forward seat. That could explain why helmet use normally reduces injuries in the 4-fold range instead of 12 fold. I think 4-fold is still pretty good!

From my perspective, folks jump horses for the fun of it. I have no objection. It is more dangerous, but so what? Their body, their sport, their choice. Some people - not me - obviously dislike wearing helmets. For a reason I do not share, they strongly prefer to ride without a helmet. I don't think that makes them stupid or deserving of insults. It merely means their priorities and what they will risk for certain pleasures differs from my choices.

I'll go on wearing a helmet. If anyone asks why, I'll point to the pavement or the rocky trails and say my mare is a klutz. If & when I come down on that hard stuff, I want a helmet. To date, no one has ever blinked an eye or given me a lecture or laughed at me for my choice. I think a simple example, possibly combined with, "I've got a spare, would you like to try it for a couple of rides?" is a better approach than calling people idiots.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are plenty of head injuries that happen when a rider is 'slopping along' and off with the fairies on a half awake horse on a loose rein, the horse trips, stumbles and goes down on its knees and the rider goes headfirst over the shoulder
Its also common for a horse's hoof to accidentally hit a rider on the head when they're lying on the ground after a fall - which is why curling up and protecting your head if you can is an instinct worth developing


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> When someone does rock climbing, are they stupid? Or do they get pleasure from something I do not understand?
> 
> When jogging in the desert, I never take a cell phone with me. It could save my life someday, in case of a heart attack or a really bad fall, and it weighs almost nothing...but I would HATE jogging with a cell phone. Am I dumb as a stump, or do I find much of my pleasure in being free from modern society as I jog? It weighs almost nothing, it could potentially save my life...but hell will freeze over before I take one with me on a run! I don't even take any water with me. It seems a part of my pleasure comes from it being ME against the DESERT, without any backup.
> 
> Wearing a helmet doesn't spoil the pleasure of riding for me....but then, many runners wouldn't be bothered by having a cell phone and a pint of water with them while jogging in a desert. Why denigrate someone for taking pleasure from something that we do not?


first off, we're talking about children not wearing helmets. any parent with a child not wearing a helmet in any number of sports is dumb. as a stump. a rock. whatever. and I'll argue it in person too. kids depend on ADULTS for their cues, their safety, their lives. adults have no business being cavalier about their kid's brains. 

the motorcycle riders, ya...I know...I KNOW. and ya...it's all on them. yes it is. except I'll be driving along, doing my 80 on the interstate and I'm going to be zoom passed by two kids on a motorcycle, having the best time int he world, not a care in the world, no helmets...and I look at that and I think, that egg could crack and that would be a sad state and all that carefree could be totally done. 

maybe it's darwin, you know. maybe it's okay. maybe so long as it's not mine, why should I care. but i care. I see motorcycle guys and they WEAR those helmets, old as they are. they want to be riding until they can't see the road in front of them. they're not stupid. hitting the skull on a hard surface makes dents in the skull, rearranges the grey matter, sometimes in a not good way. 

b, I know and you know...you're not dumb. I get what you're saying about civilization. but I'll tell you this, if you were emergency dismounted and on your back and hurting in the glorious wilderness you might feel otherwise. if something happened to you, your family would wish you had had one with you. and I'll tell you as someone I admire, I think you shouldn't be so stubborn. but you're a grown man. 

look...as far as phones - shut the **** thing off. shove it in a little case you can attach to your boot. cause if you're emergency dismounted, mia doesnt know how to use a phone if it's attached to her.

I may be right. I may be wrong. but I don't think in this I am. ERR on the side of the brain. ERR on the side of caution. it's all that stands between us and not being able to do a ****ed thing for ourselves for the rest of our lives.


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## Saddlebred11 (Mar 27, 2014)

At my barn everyone wears a helmet, I understand that doesn't mean we cannot be harmed but it can prevent a lot. I feel wearing a helmet sometimes and not other times is the most annoying it is like really, *really, REALLY.* Why should you be safe when here but it doesn't matter here?


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

I am sitting here today because I wore a helmet.

I will forever and forever wear helmets. It provokes me to no extent when I see young girls finding reasons not wear one, they are fragile beings and have not developed a caution for risk yet. 
If a grown adult wants to ride without one, then they have made a chioce which I will respect. Even tough I can't understand why.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Simple thing to do is to put up a notice stating that Anyone under the age of 18 _has to wear a helmet._ when riding from this barn.


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