# brown or smoky black or?



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm curious as the what color you guys think my mustang is. He is listed as black, but he is a bit "off" of a true black. I have been leaning towards smoky black because his eyes are a lighter shade than most horses and the cream gene can cause that and it wold have explained the off coloring. But after these pics I took today I am wondering maybe brown? What do you guys think? 


Please excuse the dirt - I didn't get a chance to groom him when these were taken.



















And from the summer....


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Idk that I'd call him black. But I'd be happy to call him mine!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Me too, my black girl looks red sometimes and I start to question her color also.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Looks like he's a black that is prone to sun fading, to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

^^^That is what I used to think but my mare has been wearing a blanket all winter.


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

My boy is grey, but in the summer you'd never know from 30' So I pose the question, what is a black horse? Visually? No blood tests etc.... I've been under the impression that a black horse is black. Any devience is ... Grey, paint, roan etc. I'm sorry if I shouldn't of asked on this thread, but the OP had color questions so maybe we can dump the black answer here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Mine last week while wearing a blanket all winter.....










This in October after the summer without a blanket............. go figure....


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Phly said:


> My boy is grey, but in the summer you'd never know from 30' So I pose the question, what is a black horse? Visually? No blood tests etc.... I've been under the impression that a black horse is black. Any devience is ... Grey, paint, roan etc. I'm sorry if I shouldn't of asked on this thread, but the OP had color questions so maybe we can dump the black answer here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A black horse is a horse that is genetically E_ aa. There are fading and non-fading blacks; both will be visually a "true" black whenever a new coat grows in. Fading blacks can bleach out dramatically in the sun, but are still considered black. The other colors you mentioned (gray, pinto, roan, etc.) are due to other genetics that may or may not be present in addition to having a black base color.

Smoky black is a black base color with a cream gene. While smoky blacks tend to fade more than "true" black horses, they are most often indistinguishable from each other and can only be determined with genetic testing or by producing offspring expressing the cream gene (from a non-cream horse).

OP's horse looks like a fading black to me.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Phly said:


> My boy is grey, but in the summer you'd never know from 30' So I pose the question, what is a black horse? Visually? No blood tests etc.... I've been under the impression that a black horse is black. Any devience is ... Grey, paint, roan etc. I'm sorry if I shouldn't of asked on this thread, but the OP had color questions so maybe we can dump the black answer here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh and my gelding is a grey.... vet has him charted, "white", lol. I like to call it as I see it but that is just not how it goes in the horse world. But if my horse was stolen I would be saying white. Most would not think of grey".


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

awesome color but i would say brown , i see to much red


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Probably his worst picture ever but this is my grey horse. But if he was lost, I'd feel calling him black would be more effective to the general public.








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Definitely black! He could be smokey black but you would have to test him. Cute horse


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was just curious because it seems his muzzle, underbelly soft spots and under his tail are the faded areas rather than the back and such you would expect with normal fading. 

I was looking at his paperwork and it seems for his one coggins he must have been really faded because he was listed as bay! All other markings were perfectly correct on the paperwork. And last spring at the adoption he looked like more like a dark liver chestnut. 

I need to find a good picture of his eyes. They look more like a dark amber than the brown you typically see.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My Mustang has amber eyes like your guy. And he is chestnut. 

Based on that and the photos you posted I would call him liver chestnut. 

Are his mane and trail true black? Because in the photos, they don't look really black like I would expect to see on a black horse.

Heck, I don't know. He could be a fading black. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was chestnut based. But what do I know. :lol:

I have a mare (who is a gray) who is black based and her eyes are VERY dark. And her gray son (bay based) also has very dark eyes. But I don't know if black horses HAVE to have dark brown eyes.

But my chestnut Mustang sure has the amber eyes. Here is a photo (best I could find) showing his eye color.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely fading black IMO. If he were red based, I would definitely expect at least a paler coronet band, but he is dark to the hoof. As far as the fading in the soft points, they don't seem hugely lighter to me. As well as that, I would expect far more change from season to season if he were brown, but he is fairly consistent in colour from what I can see.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

What is the genetics of brown?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Cat, I'd just call him beautiful :wink:.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Celeste said:


> What is the genetics of brown?


Brown is a mutation of the agouti locus, related to but different from bay. It restricts black differently, in that it actively tries to keep black off the "soft" points of the horse first and foremost, namely the muzzle, eye, elbow, flank, and under the tail. A brown horse can be very light, enough to mimic bay, or dark enough to be close to black. 

Genetics wise, brown is notated as an "At" on the agouti locus. It is thought to be recessive to classic bay, but the order of dominance is not really well understood as some bay horses have produced brown foals, while some brown horses have produced bays. As it is a form of agouti, the horse must be black based, as it will not express on a red based horse.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Chiilaa - can a real black have light under the tail as well?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

So a genetics test that can determine the difference in bay and brown is available? Right? Years ago, we called them dark bay. Same horse.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Cat said:


> Chiilaa - can a real black have light under the tail as well?


Fading can be caused by sweat as well as sun, so I would not be surprised. He doesn't seem to be as pale in these areas as I would expect.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Celeste said:


> So a genetics test that can determine the difference in bay and brown is available? Right? Years ago, we called them dark bay. Same horse.


Yup. There is a test available from Pet DNA in Arizona, they are the only lab that tests for the brown allele. All the other labs don't test for bay as such, their test actually finds the recessive "a" allele, and they count how many of those the horse does or does not have. So it's not really a test for classic bay, so much as a test for the presence of an agouti allele that isn't recessive.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Celeste said:


> So a genetics test that can determine the difference in bay and brown is available? Right? Years ago, we called them dark bay. Same horse.


As far as I know only one lab tests for brown and I have not been able to get any answers on if there are any peer reviews or verifications by outside sources that their test results are actually factual and accurate. Leaves me a bit sceptical of it especially since none of the main color testing labs like UC Davis has it and its really the only equine color test the company tests for.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Cat said:


> As far as I know only one lab tests for brown and I have not been able to get any answers on if there are any peer reviews or verifications by outside sources that their test results are actually factual and accurate. Leaves me a bit sceptical of it especially since none of the main color testing labs like UC Davis has it and its really the only equine color test the company tests for.


The guy in charge at Pet DNA has not released a paper, no. One thing to bear in mind is that if he does, the other labs can then just test for it too, so part of him not releasing it could be to maintain his business' niche in the market.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Cat, I'd just call him beautiful :wink:.


Trust me I do! This is just for curiosity's sake. He's a gelding so it will never have an impact on anything important. 

A couple more pics - this is how faded he was last spring when we adopted him.











And here is a pic that shows the lighter eye color. With his tendency to fade and the lighter eye color which I've seen in other known smoky blacks it made me suspect smoky. But who knows if that really is the cause.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> The guy in charge at Pet DNA has not released a paper, no. One thing to bear in mind is that if he does, the other labs can then just test for it too, so part of him not releasing it could be to maintain his business' niche in the market.


I've heard that excuse and while that may end up being the case, it is very hard for me to put faith and money into a scientific test that has no validation. I've been around the block in research and development a time or two and it just goes against everything I know for good, valid science.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Cat said:


> I've heard that excuse and while that may end up being the case, it is very hard for me to put faith and money into a scientific test that has no validation. I've been around the block in research and development a time or two and it just goes against everything I know for good, valid science.


I agree with this, however, I do see how that could be a compelling case. Regardless, a paper would be nice, until then, I am trying to collect as many pictures of tested horses through Pet DNA as I can, so if you do test, let me know. Working on a theory of my own, so need lots of tests, but without a poneh of my own, I am out of mane samples lol.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Hmmm...a theory of your own. That could be interesting!

Not sure if I'm going to spend money on testing him since its not going to impact a breeding program or anything, but if I ever do have extra cash to spend and do it - I will let you know. Maybe I'll get my mare tested someday - I was told she was solid black but her muzzle is distinctly brown and I don't know what she looks like during the summer yet. Guess we will see.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

In most of your pictures he looks pretty brown to me, but my grey is white, lol. :lol:


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> I agree with this, however, I do see how that could be a compelling case. Regardless, a paper would be nice, until then, I am trying to collect as many pictures of tested horses through Pet DNA as I can, so if you do test, let me know. Working on a theory of my own, so need lots of tests, but without a poneh of my own, I am out of mane samples lol.


If it's mane samples you need, I could pull a bunch from the bay & brown horses at my barn. I'd love to see which ones actually test positive for brown! Unfortunately I'd have to leave the fees up to you ;-)


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Pics from yesterday - and I am hoping to get cream tested here soon - so after all the feed back I will at least have an answer on cream/Smokey or not that I will be able to share. He is starting to shed and I will post more pictures when he is finally shed.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Love those lips! Well he sure looks brown to me, but close up you can see the black. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Well I'm thinking if he tests positive for cream then I'll have my answer on smokey. If he tests negative for cream maybe I will send samples in to that other lab for brown and see what they say. Not sure if I want to spend that much money on this curiosity of mine, but I think the first $25 sure. 

Now I'm curious about brown vs. bay testing and might have to post another thread on this. But since brown is so closely related to bay, if you tested for bay - would browns come back as carrying the agouti gene on those tests from the labs that don't specifically test for brown? And so if a horse came back as not an agouti carrier would that mean brown would not be an option? I'm curious how that works.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Cat said:


> Well I'm thinking if he tests positive for cream then I'll have my answer on smokey. If he tests negative for cream maybe I will send samples in to that other lab for brown and see what they say. Not sure if I want to spend that much money on this curiosity of mine, but I think the first $25 sure.
> 
> Now I'm curious about brown vs. bay testing and might have to post another thread on this. But since brown is so closely related to bay, if you tested for bay - would browns come back as carrying the agouti gene on those tests from the labs that don't specifically test for brown? And so if a horse came back as not an agouti carrier would that mean brown would not be an option? I'm curious how that works.


You are exactly right.

The labs that run "agouti" tests, not the brown specific, test for the presence of the recessive "a" allele. If they find two, the horse is aa, if they find one the result is a_, and if they don't find any at all, the horse is _ _. The result is then flipped - where no recessive allele is found, a dominant one has to be. Since all three variants of agouti (classic bay, wild bay and brown) are dominant, it doesn't actually specify which of these, just that the recessive is not there.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Okay - cool. So if I did have the test run at UC Davis or one of those and the cream was not found so I had them test for agouti and it came back a_ or _ _ - I could be fairly certain he is brown then since he sure doesn't look bay?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It would be a fair assumption to make. I won't say 110% totally accurate, because without the test, it never is, but I would be happy to say it. For what it's worth, I think he will come back as smoky black


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks Chiilaa - that is what I suspect too. And I really don't need 100% - just trying to feed my curiosity a bit. LOL.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Let the rest of us know when you do too lol.


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