# My horse is acting up



## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi. 

How long have you had her? How much training has she had? What is an arena fun day? 

First of course you need to rule out any pain issue or saddle fit issue. Also rule out any bit issue. 

Has anything changed? Tack? Your riding? A fall? 

The rearing is concerning. Is she actually rearing or just throwing her head up? 

I would try to find a good trainer to work with both of you. The rearing if she is actually rearing is very dangerous. Can you post a video of you riding her? 

Side note: When I ride my horse past something that frightens her, I just ride past it. I never stop and make a big deal out of it by letting her dictate what we do. As in stopping and riding back and forth in front of it. At least for me and my horse it is better if I ignore the spook and just keep on going. If I stop and change what I am doing then I am giving in to the horse drama and that never ends well. 

I am sure there will be more people responding that have more experience and better advice for you. For now if I was you I would avoid the things that make her rear and wait till you can get a trainer to help you.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, 

Firstly agree with everything Lightening has said. First & foremost, rule out pain/physical probs. It's less likely that it's pain related if she does stuff happily for you out on the trail, but that doesn't rule it out - perhaps there's discomfort that she ignores on the trail because she loves it &/or is too preoccupied to focus on it. Esp if you've had this horse for some time & she's been fine until the last few weeks, that's a big reason to suspect pain. Nutritional or other physical issues can also cause 'behavioural' problems.

Secondly I agree that you need to find a good trainer to help you. Sounds like there's a bit going on that she's been getting gradually worse about for you.



newtrailriders said:


> I think maybe she's arena sour because her trainer did all of her training in her arena and I think her trainer was a little hard on her?


May well be, and perhaps she knows you're not going to be hard on her so is telling you what she thinks of 'work' in that unpleasant setting. I'd work on making it a pleasant experience for her, rather than Work.



> I wanted to work her in the pasture because she's getting buddy sour and my gelding is terribly buddy sour. So we were going to do the thing where you make them work hard when they're together and then ride them apart to rest them


Some people like that sort of tactic. I don't, for 2 main reasons. Firstly is that if you're going to punish a horse like this at home, you aren't going to give her a bad taste in her mouth about being home with her buddy, only being home while *working for you*. Secondly, the reason a horse is 'buddy sour' is because they don't want to - & may be nervous about - going out with you alone. Using 'work' as punishment is not going to improve her attitude about working for & going out with you.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks for answering. She turned five in April and I've had her since she was 6 months old, but boarded her at her breeder until she was almost 3 and then with a trainer for over a year. The trainer didn't work with her every day but several times per week. We've had her here with us for almost a year. The trainer was a lady who shows and doesn't trail ride. 

Nothing has changed. All the tack is the same. I ride her in a snaffle.

It's actual rearing - I had my husband watch and she gets both front feet about 2 1/2 feet off the ground.

It's bridges, running water, etc. that I'll ride her back and forth over and in front of until she doesn't notice them anymore. Just trying to get her used to them. She seems to enjoy learning things like that and doesn't fight me. I put some barrells in the pasture, though, and she doesn't even want me to ride her around them at a walk. 

Our trail rider group has arena fun days. They set up "cowboy obstacles" out in the field - mailboxes to open and shut, gates, tunnels with spooky things fluttering in them etc. During the fun days different instructors come. I brought her to one so we could learn to jump, and they had some landscape timbers laid out in a pattern to trot over. That's when she first started to balk at turning left. She didn't enjoy the cowboy obstacles, either.

Sounds like a trip to the vet is in order. She's due for her annual exam anyway. Last year the vet said she had a couple of areas on her teeth which weren't too concerning and I could wait to get them taken care of. Maybe that's it. Sure would be nice if it was something so simple.

Also, when she was about 1 1/2 the vet noticed a little bubble thing hanging off of her iris, inside her right eye. He said not to worry about it unless it grew and I've been keeping an eye on it - it's a little bigger but not growing at a rapid rate or anything. They can remove it with a laser.

She never used to act buddy sour at all. My gelding goes absolutely nuts when I take her away from him but in the past it never even phased her. She's always had an independent nature. When she was a baby, she used to follow me out of the barn while her dam was going crazy in the stall trying to get her to go back to her. I was able to take her out of the breeder's barn and lead her all the way to my house about 1/2 mile away and hand graze her at my house with her dam carrying on back at the barn.

Now she gets all prancy if her buddy goes 100 feet away from her while I've got her tied. Yesterday I had to have my husband bring him back so I could get her saddled.

She's just generally getting bratty, I think. Maybe I'm just not working with her enough. It will be a few weeks before I have time available to spend with a traner. We're supposed to go horse camping with a trail riding group next weekend. What should I do with her in the meantime? 

I feel like she needs to learn to obey me even in situations that are not pleasant. Such situations will arise on the trail, I'm sure. I'm pretty sure this rearing of hers is a behavior problem rather than a pain issue because I got off of her and pulled the bit back and forth in her mouth at all angles and she did not show any signs of pain. I can't get my fingers in her mouth to check her teeth, wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

She knows what spurs are. Her trainer used them and once when I was on a group trail ride she was acting up and refusing to cross gulleys. A friend rode her using spurs and she listened better. I'm considering using them and gently spurring her forward when I feel her getting ready to rear. She gives me plenty of warning when she's getting ready to do it.

I'd rather not get killed or seriously injured. I got thrown from my trainer's horse a while back and broke my pelvis in 5 places and that was enough!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

If she gives you warning before she rears, do whatever you can to get FORWARD MOTION. She is young (just turned 5) and clearly has decided that when she gets frustrated, she is going to go up. Carry a whip if you need to (but then make sure to keep off her mouth) but get that forward motion. Rearing, in my opinion, is one of the worst things a horse can do. I'd much rather have a bucking horse than a rearing one. 

I also agree with getting a head-to-toe lameness evaluation. Something is bothering her to the left. While she still shouldn't resort to rearing even if there is pain present, it's good due diligence to check it out.

I probably would not ride her at all until you can get her checked out.

As far as being buddy sour, just keep riding her. I don't worry about "working" them near their buddy or home. Just get lots of miles on them, keep the focus on the rider, and they often eventually learn it's nothing to get worked up about. 

I'd also be setting up some cowboy obstacles at home. I feel the more you can desensitize your horse to, the better.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

That she's only recently changed behaviour, esp 'buddy sour' severely gives me the idea something important has changed recently. Perhaps injury or illness, perhaps her saddle is hurting her, or doesn't fit perfectly any more now she's developed... perhaps something unrelated to actual riding out...


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you for all the suggestions. I managed to make an appointment with a trainer for this evening. I'll definitely have her check the saddle fit and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we can figure out what the problem is.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Update - her saddle fits fine and she's not having any pain. I'm still going to have the vet check her since she's due for her yearly exam soon, but she had just learned a new trick. I rode her halfway to the trainer's and then she started misbehaving on the way there. I tried to correct her and she reared, so I got off and led her the rest of the way. She started really misbehaving and being disrespectful once we got there - tried to run me over! So we put a stud chain on her and lunged her and did a bunch of groundwork. When the trainer thought she was paying attention she had me get on her, which I felt nervous to do because she wasn't standing stock still when I went to mount her, like she always used to. I wasn't on her five seconds before she reared. I saw it coming and tried to spur her forward but she'd already made up her mind. So I got off and the trainer rode her around the arena. Every time she lifted her head high enough to rear, the trainer just flexed her. She turned her round and round, left and right, with no signs of pain. 

So the trainer told me to always be ready and just flex her every time I can tell she's getting ready to rear. If she did rear on me I was to make sure to give her a loose rein and lean forward and hold onto her mane. So I got on her and she tried it again and I flexed her so she couldn't rear. She continued to try to resist and the trainer just had me ride her around in circles and keep flexing as necessary. When we were able to go around in a few circles without her trying anything, we called it a day. The trainer gave me a stud chain and told me to use it on the ground until she's perfectly polite while being led again. She was an absolute angel all the way home but I'll keep using it a while.

I'm trailering her there after work tomorrow and we'll do some more riding. The trainer said rearing isn't really somethinig that can be cured so much as controlled, but once my mare learns that I'm on to her and won't let her do it, she'll give up trying it with me - at least for the most part. I'm not holding my breath, but mmmaaaayyyybbbbeeeee she'll be behaving well enough that I can take her on our first horse camping trip this weekend. We've been planning it a while and finally got a living quarters trailer (OMG it's the cutest thing - vintage and refurbished with cowboy murals on the living quarters walls). I don't think we'll go on the big group ride because the group will be riding on a more challenging trail, but at least we can camp and then head out on the easy trail - IF someone isn't beinig bratty.

There's someting rewarding about figuring these things out and getting back on even if I'm scared, and working through it. I think that's what's so addictive about horses.

Thank you for all the advice and for assuring me that I was right to be scared and that it was definitely something I needed to act on right away.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Okay. This is of course none of my business. Also I am not a horse trainer and don't have decades of experience with horses. But, I do see allot of problems here. I cannot get the quote feature to work. 

In your second post you stated that the Veterinarian had stated she had a couple of areas on her teethe that were concerning but that you could wait a year before addressing that. Okay!?? What is that all about? And it has been a year and has not been addressed yet. That is sad. One of the first signs of pain in the mouth is throwing the head around. Has she ever had here teethe done? 

I know that your new "trainer" said she isn't in any pain and that this is all a behavior issue that a stud chain and riding it out will fix. How does your trainer know that. You say the horse was just fine. Was she or was she to scared to be anything but "fine". You could chase an unsound horse around a round pen for an hour and if their adrenalin was high enough, they might just appear sound. Of course wouldn't want to be them the next day. 

Why are you wearing spurs on a five year old? 

Next major thing. You said that the vet said she had a bubble on her eye and that it has become larger. What the fluff are you doing? Don't you think that could make her eyesight off and cause spooking? Why has that not been followed up on? 

Anyway, like I said , not my business but I feel badly for your horse and I think you are not being empathetic towards her and that your new trainer won't be either.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

A horse's age has nothing to do with whether to wear spurs or not. I wear spurs after the first 30 days of riding 2 and 3 year old colts. If you have a good seat and a quiet leg, a spur is nothing more than a tool used to encourage a horse to move off of your leg, and to allow greater flexibility through a horse's rib cage. I use spurs when bending, sidepassing, and working on other maneuvers that require fine leg movement. I press with my calf, then touch the spur to the horse, then roll the spur up the horse as necessary. I like my horses to be quite sensitive to leg pressure, for instance during spins if I want a slow, more relaxed spin I will just lightly lay my calf on the horse. If I want a faster, more high energy spin I will squeeze with my calf, and add spur as necessary if he doesn't move off of my leg. Spurs are not evil, nor are they wrong to use on a younger horse - as long as the rider can control his or her leg, you're not going to be using them unless they're really necessary. 

-- Kai


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

lightning said:


> Okay. This is of course none of my business. Also I am not a horse trainer and don't have decades of experience with horses. But, I do see allot of problems here. I cannot get the quote feature to work.
> 
> In your second post you stated that the Veterinarian had stated she had a couple of areas on her teethe that were concerning but that you could wait a year before addressing that. Okay!?? What is that all about? And it has been a year and has not been addressed yet. That is sad. One of the first signs of pain in the mouth is throwing the head around. Has she ever had here teethe done?
> 
> ...


Am I being oversensitive, or am I being attacked? I could be wrong but it seems to me that you're making some pretty big assumptions. It's hard to tell tone on the internet. Of course all you have to go on is what I've put in my posts and what you've seen other people do, and apparently you've witnessed some horse abuse in your time that makes you suspicious of others. That's entirely understandable. I'm suspicious of others as well.

Let me put your mind at ease and assure you that my horse is in no way, shape, or form being abused. Quite the opposite. The equine hospital that I use has top notch vets, and my new trainer (I'm not going to put quotation marks around that word) is the calmest, kindest trainer I've come across. I asked for MANY recommendations before getting her contact info when I moved here, in case I ran into any troubles, and I'm absolutely thrilled with her.

The vet said her teeth did not need to be floated yet - not quite a year ago - and that they'd probably need to be floated this year. We are not late for her appointment. The bubble on her iris is congenital and was first noticed when she was a year old. It has gone from about 4mm to about 6mm in size over the past year and I have been photographing it and sending the photos to the vet, who does eye procedures and has the laser equipment to take care of it and states there is no rush. Considering the fact that people come from everywhere to take their prize horses to this facility, I think I'll trust his judgment. I imagine when it's very bright and sunny out, light might reflect off of it and that might cause her some anxiety, and the reason I mentioned it is because I thought someone else on here may have had a similar issue and might be able to shed some light on any behaviors it might cause. I thought perhaps she wouldn't want to turn left because then the eye that was flashing was toward the outside of the circle and she might not comfortable with that.

Your assumption that I'm not being empathetic toward her is totally unfounded. She's five years old and highly intelligent and trying new tricks and seeing what she can get away with. Unfortunately, I'm much too much of a softie and I let her get away with too many things. If I hadn't been such a pushover all this time, she wouldn't be rearing and resisting and being disrespectful. I have a tendency to be much too nice with horses, coworkers, and basically everyone I meet.

Do you want me to go into details here on how the trainer (again, not in quotes) was able to determine she wasn't in pain? I could try - but, like you said, you don't have decades of experience. I also do not have decades of experience. All I could tell was that she watched her for a while, lunged her and watched her gait etc., played with the bit and checked the saddle fit and checked her mouth then got on her and carefully rode her around only to the right at first since I said she was giving me trouble when we turned left. When she raised her head or acted like she was going to rear, the trainer just calmly flexed her to the right. Then after a while when she was totally behaving on the right, she turned her around and rode her to the left and did the same thing. She never punished her when she went to rear, she just calmly and quietly flexed her because horses are unable to rear when they're flexing. 

My horse did not show any signs of fear or pain. As far as the "why are you wearing spurs with a five-year-old?" question....my guess is you're envisioning a person kicking at a horse with spurs which is a terrible thing to do. The ride from my house to the trainier's house was actually the first time I've worn spurs with her and that was so I could make absolutely certain I could get her to go forward when I could tell she was getting ready to rear. Once on a challenging trail ride she was giving me trouble and I was afraid to continue forward, so a friend switched horses with me and rode her the rest of the way. When she balked at walking through some scary areas he GENTLY TOUCHED the spurs to her side and gradually increased the pressure until she went forward. He said "she knows what the spurs are and respects them. The person who trained her must have used them." So - then I knew that she knew what they were and listened better when they were being worn. There are people who use spurs correctly and then there are the people you're likely envisioning.

I am going to try not to get in the habit of defending myself against people who I feel are being unfair to me in this forum and maybe I should not have even answered these questions because it might give the impression that I'm into arguing, which I am not. In other forums, trying to explain things rationally did not work because there were just some unrational people on those forums who liked to attack people and be mean. So if it looks like this conversation is going to degenerate I'm just going to not answer questions which make me feel like I'm being picked on. It's not that I'm trying to be rude, I just don't want to go there again.


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

Sounds to me that the horse is knowingly taking advantage of you, sensing your nervousness and knowing he can act up and get away with it. They can feel you tense up in your seat. That will put them more on edge, make them more tense, and make them not want to do the things you are trying to tell them to do.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Your horse is either in pain, or has your number and knows how to get out of doing what she doesn't want to do. First, do a vet check. Not with your trainer, with an actual vet. Look at the teeth, eyes, back, stifles, and hocks, specifically. Then go back to groundwork and getting your horse supple and listening to you on the ground-- moving her feet, stopping and facing you, and working on flexion and suppleness. Then work on those things from the saddle, gradually moving to areas where she's more likely to act up-- away from her pasturemates, the arena, etc. 

I suspect the majority of the issues you are describing are due to the barnsourness. Unfortunately, putting the horse to work by the buddies and letting her rest away from the barn doesn't work for all horses-- some just become more and more wound up doing that. Get your horse to trust and listen to you on the ground and in the saddle, and those issues will start to fade away. Barn/buddy sourness is due to insecurity. If your horse feels insecure with you, you'll have problems. 

Really evaluate whether you have the skills to work through this issue. It will probably get worse before it gets better. Most horses that are barn/buddy sour throw big tantrums when you really start working on it or force the issue, so if the rearing, running out, and head tossing scares you, you may need to really consider if this is the horse you need right now, or if you'd be better off with something more solid. A trainer may be able to work through the issues easily with your horse, but they will return once you start riding again unless you address your skills and work on training, too.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm going to disagree with some of the other posters and say that it sounds like you know your horse, take good care of it, and are doing most of the right things in trying to overcome these issues. Young horses often try to test their riders -avoidance techniques- to get out of work. Even some older horses will do it. I think you have the right approach of working with a good trainer (no quotes!) and keeping to your established vet schedule. 

As for buddy sourness - well, on my two, I just ignore it and make them get on out where I want to go. I don't make an issue of it. One of the things I do on occasion is ride out like always, then loop back close to home where I might ask for circles and bends and sepentines, then I head out on the trail again. I might do this a few times just to let the horse know that heading home doesn't mean the ride is ending.

Since I don't have access to any arenas, I can't really offer any advice there.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

When I read your first post, about the horse having trouble turning left in the arena and pasture, but not on the trail,
*
The OP said:*_ "When I brought her to the fun day she started this thing where she tosses her head and prances sideways whenever I ask her to turn left. After that we went on some trail rides and she was fine - no problems turning left. Then I decided to ride her in the pasture and she started it up again. It's pretty much guaranteed now she'll act up every single time I ask her to turn left in the pasture and she's started rearing. She's especially bad about it near a certain gate."

_I thought that it might be the tooth issue you mentioned. Reason being, a horse on a trail will turn left more easily becuase they are following hte line of the trail, as it bends left. so, you don't need to 'fight' them, they have already decided to go that way. Little rein is needed, and the turn is usually wider/smoother.

In the pasture or arena, YOU decide where to turn. Except for the arena wall, there is no obvious border to make the horse turn. So, more rein is needed, eliciting more of a pain response , if the hrose has a dental issue.

Have you tried riding her bitless?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I really do think she's got my number, although there is a chance that it's a combination of that and pain. The trainer who broke her for me told me that she would always be too much horse for me because she's just one of those horses who will always take a mile if you give her an inch and I'm just not naturally assertive enough. I've had her since she was 6 months old and boarded her and didn't bring her home and start riding her myself until a year ago. I was absolutely shocked at how docile and sweet she was and how much she seemed to truly enjoy being ridden on the trails. I think she really hates the arena and when we were at that arena play day and she started acting up and I didn't correct her, she realized I wasn't as firm as she thought I was and decided to start playing games with me.

Of course I'll have a vet check her out but after seeing how well she behaved yesterday with someone who is a little more firm, I really think it's behavior and not pain. In hindsight, I think I ignored a few warnings leading up to this. I'm surprised how quickly her behavior escalated, though.

I can't count the number of times I've decided to sell her and then envisioned her being abused and I was just unable to make myself do it. I'm keeping her, for better or worse. I might not be able to continue riding her, but she's not going anywhere. Since I'm stuck with her I'd really like to try to make it work out.

I'm sure I don't have the skills to work through these things without a trainer. I'm _hoping_ that I can take more lessons and get confident enough to correct without overcorrecting. I have so much trouble with knowing just how much pressure is necessary. Yesterday when she tried to rear on me again and I kept her from rearing and made her go in circles the trainer told me I didn't have to kick her and to just calm down and cluck to her. This has been my biggest problem from the first day I started riding - either not being assertive at all, or being too aggressive and making the horse nervous.

Thanks for the great advice, everybody. We're going to head out to our next lesson now. Please pray we get this figured out! I don't want her to be a pasture pet!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, I get that your vet said a year ago she didn't need her teeth done yet, but horses generally need their teeth attended to around yearly, and youngsters can need more frequently, so I'd want to get her teeth attended to before assuming it's not mouth pain. If it only happens going left, it is likely to be a physical prob. Agree with Tiny why it doesn't appear to happen on the trail.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I would still have her checked by the vet - especially her teeth. 

Just in case. Wouldn't you feel awful if you put it off and found out later that she had a big mouth sore from a tooth hook and was trying to tell you by rearing?

I'm probably overzealous sometimes with taking my horses to the vet but you just never know. I'd rather have them check and not find anything, and then I can proceed forward with confidence.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I'll have her teeth checked. I didn't realize they changed that fast. This is really an excellent equine-only vet that we have here, with a 24/7 hospital etc. My mare was 4 last year and had never had her teeth floated before and he said they were good enough to wait until the next visit, so I guess I didn't realize how fast they must grow. I figured there was no possible way they'd be causing any pain by now. They recommend floating them way before they get to the point of pain, don't they? Now I AM starting to feel bad.

I'll get her in ASAP. They probably are getting a little sore. 

Really I do think that MOST of the problem is that I'm just not skilled enough and haven't taken enough lessons. She's a young, very smart horse and I need more skill to be able to properly handle her. I spent so much time with her over the past 4 years that I feel like I can kind of tell how she's feeling and whether or not she's in pain. Or at least I thought I could.

Until about a year ago, we lived in a very rural kind of back-woods area - the upper peninsula of Michigan. It was quite difficult to find a trainer who wasn't a total yahoo. The lady who sold me my mare when she was only 6 months old told me I (a beginner) would be able to ride her when she was a year old. I knew nothing about horses! I totally believed her and boarded my filly there until she was about maybe 2 1/2. I visited every night and groomed her, cleaned her stall, took her out walking etc. and slowly over time I began to realize that place was really not the best environment for her and her breeder/boarder didn't have a clue about training horses, or about horse nutrition.

After a long search for a trainer and somebody to teach me, I found a woman whos parents showed in the world shows and she knew more about horses than anybody else I knew up there, but she was all about showing and I wanted to learn trail riding. I left my mare with her for almost about 18 months or so to train. I was able to get some lessons from some people who were just average riders and that's all I could find up there. Also, the nearest equine specialist was an EIGHT HOUR DRIVE from home. Sure there were family vets who also saw horses, but even one of those was almost a hour drive away and didn't know all that much about horses.

So we moved back down West of Kansas City, where I was born, about a year ago. The horse world is so different here and there are so many more resources. I really do think this trainer I found will teach me how to ride right and how to control my mare without swinging from being too much of a pushover to getting scared and being overly demanding. She has already shown me a lot and yesterday when I could see that my mare was getting ready to think about rearing, I didn't get scared. I was able to relax and gently flex her and let her run herself in circles until she decided to stand still. This worked a lot better than going "OMG she's going to rear!" and then stiffening and freaking out, unable to decide whether making her go forward would make things better or worse or not and then deciding to kick the heck out of her and pray like heck she wouldn't bolt off and kill me. At yesterday's lesson she tried rearing once and considered it 4 times, then only almost considered it before she decided it was OK to just walk over the pole like I asked her to.

The vets are so much better and would you believe both the vets and the lessons are much less expensive than they were up North? Boarding would be an entirely different story. Only the wealthy can board horses here, I'm sure.

But anyway. I really want to learn and I know it sounds absolutely nuts but I've dreamed of endurance riding for many years. Not racing to win - just going on the races and enjoying the adventure. I just feel an extreme need to learn to ride well and I would LOVE to be able to do it on my mare. 

So there. Hi. I'm a horseaholic. My name is Stacey and nobody I know wants to hear me blab on and on and on about horses forever so I came here on this forum, to find similarly obsessed people.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

newtrailriders said:


> I'll have her teeth checked. I didn't realize they changed that fast. This is really an excellent equine-only vet that we have here, with a 24/7 hospital etc. My mare was 4 last year and had never had her teeth floated before and he said they were good enough to wait until the next visit, so I guess I didn't realize how fast they must grow. I figured there was no possible way they'd be causing any pain by now. They recommend floating them way before they get to the point of pain, don't they? Now I AM starting to feel bad.


Every horse is different. Some need their teeth floated every 6 months. Others are good to be checked once a year. 

Certainly whenever you have an undesirable behavior pop-up suddenly, pain should be your first avenue to rule-out. No, the answer is not always going to be pain, but it should at least be considered. You had said yourself previously that she was due for her annual exam, and turned 5 in April.... so I would summize it's been over a year since you've had her teeth checked last. She's definately due.

In my experience, I've never not had my horses need a _little something_ with a teeth float. And that includes my Shotgun who's been checked every year since he was 2 (he's now 6). So personally, I'm always skeptical when I hear people getting told that their horse needs absolutely nothing. It seems logical to me that out of _all those teeth_ in the mouth, there's got to be a small sharp edge _somewhere_. Might not be much, but surely there's something!

Regardless of the findings on her teeth, I would also consider having a chiropractor look at her.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Another thought popped into my mind. When you are asking for left, in the arena, pasture or just out in the flat, are you using rein (mouth contact) or leg? Can you move her forehand/shoulders left by just opening the left rein and pushing with right leg? Does she fuss when you ask for lateral flexion while standing still? 

As for the difference in reaction on the flat vs the trail, I'm going to assume the turns are tighter (more flex) on the flat. If the teeth are ruled out, you also might want to have a chiropractor look at her if she's actually fighting the flexion vs just turning.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Change said:


> Another thought popped into my mind. When you are asking for left, in the arena, pasture or just out in the flat, are you using rein (mouth contact) or leg? Can you move her forehand/shoulders left by just opening the left rein and pushing with right leg? Does she fuss when you ask for lateral flexion while standing still?
> 
> As for the difference in reaction on the flat vs the trail, I'm going to assume the turns are tighter (more flex) on the flat. If the teeth are ruled out, you also might want to have a chiropractor look at her if she's actually fighting the flexion vs just turning.


She was fussing whether I used reins or only leg but only when I was riding her, not ever when I was on the ground. I could flex her from the ground, lunge her right or left without any trouble, and pull back and forth on the bit from any angle without any signs of pain. Her saddle fits and when I take it off I never see any dry spots or anything. Her gait looks good.

Maybe the girth?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree on making sure there is no physical issue first, and esp teeth.
If you ride her in a bosal, does she act the same, far as turning left?

When you say you can flex her fine on the ground, are you talking of just flexing the head and neck? Is that what you are also doing riding-ie taking the head away, when she goes to rear, which is correct for that, but just flexing the head and neck does not make a horse soft in his entire body, so that he also follows through in that turn with the rest of his body, esp shoulders
How are you asking for that turn? Are you just using your rein, pulling more, having the hose brace in the neck, pushing ribs against your inside leg?
What I am going through,is what to do, once a physical problem has been eliminated=basically getting her soft in hr entire body
Thus, to turn left, only use enough left rein to tip nose slightly into the turn, while laying outside rein against her neck. Then, fix with legs, what body part is not following in aleignment, not more rein. Thus, shoulders not following-bump with outside leg slightly ahead of cinch. Ribs pushing in, use inside leg at cinch area
Of course, turn on forehand, turn on haunches are all foundations needed, ans esp shoulder control. A horse follows his shoulders not his nose, until we teach him to follow his nose with entire body in correct aleignment


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> I agree on making sure there is no physical issue first, and esp teeth.
> If you ride her in a bosal, does she act the same, far as turning left?
> 
> When you say you can flex her fine on the ground, are you talking of just flexing the head and neck? Is that what you are also doing riding-ie taking the head away, when she goes to rear, which is correct for that, but just flexing the head and neck does not make a horse soft in his entire body, so that he also follows through in that turn with the rest of his body, esp shoulders
> ...


I've never tried her in a bosal. 

In the saddle, I'm just flexing to keep her from rearing and when I ride I try to use as little mouth contact as possible because I want her to work off of the leg more but she does require some mouth contact. She wasn't trained to neck rein and I was doing my best to get her started on it with what little knowledge I have but I'll let the trainer show me how to do it better.

My homework this week is to get her yielding better to pressure from the ground, so that she'll do it better when I ride her. I also have to lunge her at walk and trot using voice commands so that she consistently slows down to a walk and stops just to voice and no pressure, get her to stay out of my personal space and put her feet where I want them, and start leading her differently. I'm uneducated in "horse talk" so don't know the proper terms for it but instead of just leading her around and trying to keep her in the correct spot next to me I'm supposed to first move my hand forward and cluck to make her move, without putting any pressure on the lead rope and then start leading her so that she'll start going where I point her without any physical contact.

I'm not going to ride her, except at lessons, until we get all of our issues worked out, but I'm happy witih what I'm learning in the lessons. The trainer has started teaching me to use my seat, and my mare is catching on to that quickly and clearly prefers that to use of the reins.


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## dulisaylcor (Jun 1, 2017)

Hi!
Personally I think it is due to different reasons. First of all, as many others have said I would make sure that she is comfortable with her riding equipment, but since she seems to be okay hacking out I don't think that is a problem. I think it is worth getting her teeth checked out as well as her eye problem. 
Also, since she is young I would recommend doing a variety of different things to keep schooling interesting for her because youngsters tend to get bored easily and get fed up with a lot of repetition, so I would keep your training sessions light, short and interesting for your mare ending it on a positive note. It's nice also to spend some "bonding" time with horses as it builds trust. 
I have done these arena fun days before and although they are a good idea and can benefit the horse and rider in many ways but personally I think that even though it is supposed to build trust with your horse I have discovered that it can also do the opposite. It really depends on what trainer was there too, because sometimes he/she can push you to do things that neither you or your horse are comfortable doing. Prancing can be caused by excitement or frustration which is understandable on the fun day.
I agree that when finishing a session you should dismount somewhere else which is not the gate you are used to dismounting at. 
As she is young I would also reward her for every tiny little achievement, even though I would not recommend using a huge amount of treats, just a stroke or praise with your voice or a small rest.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DO not worry about neck reining! It falls into place, through a correct progression of riding with a snaffle, working towards that 'eventual goal'
You do not set out to just teach neck reining, any more then you would teach algebra or calculus to someone not yet solid in basic math!
The reason I asked about the bosal, was to start to rule out a teeth issue, until she can be seen by a vet.
I think, pain issues aside, your horse is not truly soft, and thus will resist pressure, versus giving to it
Yes, you want to ride with more legs then hands, and thus flexing exercises, that involve the entire body, while moving, is much better then flexing ahrose on the ground, as all you are then doing, is flexing the head and neck, which has not much to do, far as having the hrose soft and yielding in all body parts


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

dulisaylcor said:


> Hi!
> Personally I think it is due to different reasons. First of all, as many others have said I would make sure that she is comfortable with her riding equipment, but since she seems to be okay hacking out I don't think that is a problem. I think it is worth getting her teeth checked out as well as her eye problem.
> Also, since she is young I would recommend doing a variety of different things to keep schooling interesting for her because youngsters tend to get bored easily and get fed up with a lot of repetition, so I would keep your training sessions light, short and interesting for your mare ending it on a positive note. It's nice also to spend some "bonding" time with horses as it builds trust.
> I have done these arena fun days before and although they are a good idea and can benefit the horse and rider in many ways but personally I think that even though it is supposed to build trust with your horse I have discovered that it can also do the opposite. It really depends on what trainer was there too, because sometimes he/she can push you to do things that neither you or your horse are comfortable doing. Prancing can be caused by excitement or frustration which is understandable on the fun day.
> ...


This morning was the first time we did our "homework," since it's been so dang hot. I think we spent about 15 minutes on it. I stopped when we made a small amount of progress on each thing the trainer wants us to work on and did let her rest for a while and petted her a little after each small achievement.

I think she was both excited and frustrated on the fun day. She seemed to get frustrated when she didn't understand what I was asking her to do and then, after that, she got frustrated when I wouldn't let her go where she wanted to go or do what she wanted to do. So now we're back to the basics...which I'm guessing isn't uncommon?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> DO not worry about neck reining! It falls into place, through a correct progression of riding with a snaffle, working towards that 'eventual goal'
> You do not set out to just teach neck reining, any more then you would teach algebra or calculus to someone not yet solid in basic math!
> The reason I asked about the bosal, was to start to rule out a teeth issue, until she can be seen by a vet.
> I think, pain issues aside, your horse is not truly soft, and thus will resist pressure, versus giving to it
> Yes, you want to ride with more legs then hands, and thus flexing exercises, that involve the entire body, while moving, is much better then flexing ahrose on the ground, as all you are then doing, is flexing the head and neck, which has not much to do, far as having the hrose soft and yielding in all body parts


That's good to hear about the neck reining. Some people I have ridden with have insinuated that she should be neck reining by now and they think that's one of the first things horses learn. These same people keep telling me that it's wrong to ride in snaffles because they pinch the horses' cheeks and that the leverage bits are actually gentler. There are so many conflicting opinions on everything out there, it's hard to know who to listen to. 

Yes about her being not truly soft - the trainer kept telling me that, once I get her softer, she will be generally calmer and more relaxed and much more pleasurable to ride.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

It always irritates me when people assign a deadline to a horse's training. "By x age they should be neck reining." "By x age they should do flying lead changes." It all depends on the amount of time spent on a horse, and by the rider/trainer's experience. Every horse and every rider is an individual. Neck reining, wen done properly, is an advanced skill. I mean, sure, if you want to drag your reins across the horse's neck and haul him into the turn with his shoulder dropped and his nose tipped to the outside, yeah you can "teach" that in a day. But it's horribly incorrect. I usually take several months of chipping away at it every day, first laying the rein on the horse's neck, then adding outside leg to turn, then using inside rein if necessary. Lay rein, outside leg, inside rein. Lay rein, outside leg, inside rein. Over and over and over again over the course of many months' worth of training. Eventually when I lay the rein on my horse's neck, he will execute a nice smooth turn with his nose tipped to the inside. Then I can add leg pressure for faster spins. But that takes a LONG TIME to teach. It's not something that happens overnight or in x amount of lessons. And no, leverage bits are not necessarily gentler than snaffles. Any bit can be harsh when in the wrong hands. 

-- Kai


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Well as soon as I manage to get time off to take her to the vet, and schedule her appointment, she starts behaving herself! Little turd. She and my gelding are going in Friday for their annual, vaccinations, coggineses, sheath cleaning, teeth floating, and to have her eye checked out. I remembered what the thing in her eye is - it's called a "uveal cyst" and they're common in horses, cats, and dogs. Hers is smaller than most of them I've seen online and I guess they usually don't like to remove them untl they get bigger. People usually don't notice them until they're bigger. She's got blue eyes, though, so hers is visible. I think I'd rather have it removed now than later even if we have the option to wait, because it will eventually have to be removed anyway. We'll see what the vet says.

But anyway - yeah - she's back to being her old sweet self. I haven't got back on her in a while because I had to cancel my last two lessons due to working late, but she's behaving herself very well with the "back to basics" type of groundwork we've been doing. Just yielding, leading, and lunging at the different gates. It doesn't sound like much, but I'm telling you - she was being rotten.

I was getting a little worried that she'd never be back to her old self again but just today she decided to go ahead and start doing everything I ask her to do again, without being stubborn or pretending she didn't know what I was trying to tell her to do.

I wonder if it might have had something to do with her heat cycle. She's never been a total beast when she's been in heat before, but she does tend to get a little more feisty. Do their cycles change as they get older? Maybe it's more intense for her now. Maybe I should have some of that "moody mare" stuff around. I read the ingredients and if I remember right it was just raspberry leaves?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

After my last post, the farrier came over. He pointed out that she's having a growth spurt. She had leveled out and I thought she was done growing, but sure enough she's butt high again! I've talked to several people who got horses from the same stallion and several of them kept growing until they were eight. So . . . Growing pains maybe?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

We had another lesson yesterday and the instructor/trainer was impressed with the progress we've made on the ground work. I can't even begin to express what a relief it is to have finally found a GOOD instructor! There were so many "little" things that I was doing wrong, and they were so easy to fix and made a huge difference. For instance - before, I was gently kicking her when I wanted her to walk and then kicking harder if she didn't go. I've learned that even a gentle kick is too much to start with. I've learned to start with moving the reins forward, then if she doesn't step out I cluck, then if she's not moving squeeze gently with my calves and only if that doesn't work, kick gently wiith my heels. Simple things, but I just didn't know, and I was basically being rude to her. I'm learning to use my seat to stop, just doing a crunch in the saddle and saying "whoa". Most of the time she stops at just that but if not I pull gently back on the reins.

Also, I've learned that she only seems to behave well for me on the trail, basically because I'm not making her do anything. She's happy because she's doing what she wants to do. I was inadvertently letting her get away with things and she thought she was the boss and I was just along for the ride. So when we got in an arena and I actually "steered" her more, I got to see that she really wasn't as obedient as I thought she was.

Yesterday we rode around the arena, dragged things around, went over tarps and poles etc. and then went for a very short trail ride. My instructor taught me that I need to frequently tell my mare to do something besides just happily travel down the trail, to keep her mind on me. So we'd randomly stop here and there, or turn in a circle. At the end of the trail there were a bunch of trees for us to weave in and out of and my mare started "acting up" again. She didn't threaten to rear but she was "drunk walking" because she didn't want to weave in and out of the trees. Then I tensed up, which made her more tense, which made me more tense, and pretty soon I was getting scared again. 

So I've got to learn to relax. HA! Me? Relax? THAT will be a miracle LOL.


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

I am glad you are making progress. I want to revisit the tooth issue. Vets do not get much education in dentistry (or hoof care). So I'd take the vet's advice on that issue with a grain of salt. I say this because my vet told me two years in a row that my horses had some minor points on their teeth but did not need floated. The second year I went ahead and called a dentist anyway because, as mentioned, horses generally need their teeth floated at least yearly. If you've already had that done, I missed that post. But if not, I would definitely make sure she gets her teeth floated even if the vet says otherwise.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Well I sure hope the vet floats them! It's not easy getting time off work during business hours! "Minor points." That's what the vet told me last year


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

We're back from the vet  Ona only had "tiny baby points," and PJ had bigger points. This was Ona's first time getting her teeth floated, and PJ just had his floated last year. The uveal cyst on her right eye has grown such a small amount that the vet feels the risks of having it taken care of would outweigh the benefits. It's smaller than I thought it was. A little bigger than a bb, maybe as big as an air soft pellet. The vet says the eye looks very healthy and the cyst has minimal effect on her vision in bright light, no effect in normal daylight. She says the cysts sometimes quit growing or even go away on their own, so we'll just monitor the size for now. She's going to call the opthalmologist they work with and make sure he's in agreement. So - that's that!

I didn't know there was a wasp nest inside the tubes on the frame of the horse trailer. When I was unloading the horses at the vet, the wasps swarmed us. They stung me twice and I don't know how many times they stung the horses but I think they got PJ at least once while we were unloading, and my guess would be they stung them during the ride as well. I had to go get wasp spray and kill them all before loading the horses back up. Good thing the horses were still a little sedated when we loaded them back up.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

OMG I can't believe how good it feels to finally be really learning. I feel like I've just been yahooing around for the past four years. I do feel like I've learned a lot about horse behavior over the past four years and had a good foundation before finding this instructor, so the time wasn't wasted but WOW. Just WOW. All of you people who've had the benefit of good, knowledgeable instructors from day one are so blessed. I am so jealous of everybody who really knows how to ride.

Ona and I totally went back to basics and started over at square one, so today was the first day trotting. Actually, I've done very little trotting on her in the past. Her trainer did, but not me. Her trainer used to tell me she had a trot like a pogo stick. Not so - AT ALL!! She has such a nice, smooth trot. I've never really been able to comfortably sit a trot on any other quarter horse. It feels like floating! I think she was bouncy for her trainer because she was on the small side and the trainer was very heavy and it was just a lot of work for Ona. I've learned to sit properly - my position was pretty good before but now I feel much more balanced and secure, and light. Ona is responding to me so much better now that I'm using my legs and seat first, before using my hands. Now that I'm quieter and my hands are quieter, she's more relaxed and free....and now that I'm being more consistent, she's doing everything I ask her to do. We had so much fun today. She truly seemed to be enjoying it! We just did little arena excercises and kept changing it up and then went on a trail ride with the instructor. We left her saddle and bridle there and will just be working on pivoting for the next few days until our next lesson. Once we get that down on both fronts and backs, we can learn to side pass woooooohoooooooo!

I think we've taken a couple of steps forward and will try not to be too bummed when we take a step back. What's that saying? Something like "when you take two steps forward and one step back, it's not a failure, it's a cha-cha?" Something like that.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

We had a good lesson today but she was a lot more . . . "spirited" . . . than she was for the past two weeks. It didn't even occur to me until after the lesson was over that she's probably going into heat again. If I'd been on my own or with my husband and she was behaving the way she behaved today, I would have had a full-on panic attack, with flashbacks to my bad accident and the whole nine yards. I wish I could bring my instructor with me on every ride for the rest of my life. What am I ever going to do without her?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

This thread has become a good tool for me to just review and track things. I imagine it's boring to the more experienced people because it's such basic stuff.

She's back to being an angel again and we're making progress together. I am now certain that her behavior was caused by her heat cycles. It seems stupid that I didn't figure it out earlier but, really, I've never really worked witih her as consistently as I have been lately so I may have lucked out and missed her worst few days in the past. I think the first time I had ever ridden her during the worst day of her heat cycle was on that arena fun day, and when she acted up and got away with a little bit that started some behavioral issues. The woman who trained her always used to tell me that Ona was smart and strong-willed and if I gave her an inch she would take a mile. 

We've been working on yielding on the ground for a couple of weeks and yesterday we got her yielding her front under saddle. That was my first time doing that on a horse. My horse education has happened all backwards and I learned a lot of other stuff before I ever got to learn the basics. In a way I'm kind of glad I did because it feels like things are starting to click. She's pivoting her front and back about 180 degrees on the ground, less under saddle because we're taking that slow. My homework this week is continuing to work on the pivoting from the ground, and backing her through obstacles. I'm starting to understand what all the ol' experts have been talking about when they say they can get their horses to put their feet anywhere they want them. We're far from that yet but we're making progress. When we first started backing through obstacles, and I'd try to get her to just turn her butt 90 degrees, she'd swing it a whole 180 and we'd have to start over. Today we slowed it down and she only took one step each time I clucked, so we we're more successful. We're learning.

My instructor says she thinks it will be safe for me to bring my saddle home next week and start doing some homework in the saddle, unsupervised. We've rigged up a "round pen". It's actually a square pen but it will work, and we have some landscape timbers and barrels to play with. 

I ordered some raspberry leaves today and will start her on them and hopefully her next cycle won't be so bad. 

Oh - another exciting advancement. She's learning to bend at the pole. Because of her new habit of rearing, the trainer decided we should work on that. She had been lifting her head when she didn't like pressure on the bit and since that can be a precursor to rearing, the trainer got out some draw reins that she'd rigged up for use with free lungeing. So she's had me free lungeing her with the draw reins on for a few minutes at the beginning of the last two lessons. We've only been able to do it at a walk or very slow trot. I didn't notice any difference until today when we were doing our "homework" and I was backing her. She surprised me by givingi her head during backing, and seemed more relaxed and balanced that way.

OK enough droning on and on.


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## Oreos Girl (May 24, 2011)

It is wonderful that you found a trainer that you click with and is helping you and your horse.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

newtrailriders said:


> This thread has become a good tool for me to just review and track things. I imagine it's boring to the more experienced people because it's such basic stuff.
> .



I think it is a wonderful journal of your progress. Keep at it! :cowboy:


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Yesterday we did the draw reins for just two loops around the arena. She trotted all the way around so nicely that we took them off quickly. Next we played some games in the arena to work on backing and lateral movement. We had to get cones off the fence and put them on a barrell. It was a challenge but we learned how to stay up against the fence nicely and at one point she "almost sidepassed" right up to the fence. She stopped a few steps past the cone but hey - we can't be too picky. When she got antsy we trotted around the arena for a while, then she stayed geared up from trotting and it was hard to slow her down. We worked on opening a rope gate and walking through it, weaving in and out of cones, etc. then went out to the pasture to do some lateral movement exercises. I don't know the technical term for it (I think my instructor is trying not to overwhelm me with too many terms) but we did this exercise where we had to face forward and keep her body and spine nice and straight and forward, while walking diaganolly across the field. So she had to cross her feet and kind of walk sideways. We were pretty good at that.

My instructor lives around the corner and it's about a half a mile drive to her place, but as the crow flies I think we were only a thousand feet or so from my gelding. We couldn't see him through the woods but Ona could hear him calling to her and she kept calling back to him. She got a little out of hand but I didn't get scared and my instructor just encouraged me to flex her head around and keep my legs off of her until she stopped running herself in circles. Once she stopped I slowly flexed her head the other way and when she calmed down we went a few steps further, then she started getting jiggy and calling out to him again so we repeated the exercise. We had to do it a few times. I wouldn't have noticed if my instructor hadn't told me - but she pointed out that every time I flexed her and she turned circles, she would only stop with her nose facing toward my gelding. I also learned that the faster Ona's actions get, the slower mine need to get so we don't get into a vicious circle of working one another up. So I kept saying "Mmmmmmmooollllllaaaaaaaaaaassssssseeeeeeesssss" in my head and moving my hands in slowmo LOL. Hey - it worked.

She did a lot of head tossing but no rearing and since I didn't panic I'm going to go ahead and take my saddle home with me on Friday and we're going to cut the lessons back to once a week. My instructor is a school teacher, as well, and school started again today. She wasn't going to do any lessons at all during the school year so I'm glad she's agreed to do once a week. As long as we keep learning, I want to keep taking lessons. This should help us make it through this "kinda green horse and kinda green rider" stage without getting black and blue. 

Our homework is to practice getting her to yield her front and back only 1-2 steps at a time each way, and back only 1-2 steps at a time. No forward motion. She's a smart one - can't wait to see what we learn to do.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I started her on the raspberry leafs today. I'm not sure if I need to give them to her every day or just a few days prior to and during heat. I've read different recommendations.

Today after I haltered her and before I even started to tell her to do anything, she started side passing LOL. The goal today was to teach her to only pivot or back a small step or two at a time. She learned that in no time flat! So now I give her the cue and say "one," and she'll take one or two steps. When I give her the cue and cluck she takes several steps. Maybe tomorrow it will be a little easier to place the cone on the barrell during our lesson.

I've been keeping our homework sessions very short - 10 minutes at the most. I'm excited and want to do more but I'm holding myself back. After I'm done with her I go do the same stuff with PJ. He's obviously learned it all before and I'm done with him in five minutes. It's working - we've always learned what the instructor wanted us to learn by our next lesson.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Today's lesson was a bit of a challenge.

First of all, when I was just getting ready to lead her away from the pasture to bring her to her lesson, she slowly and deliberately reared up almost vertically. She wasn't worked up, she wasn't upset, she just didn't feel like leaving the pasture and decided to rear up and see what I would do. I just waited until she came back down and walked her in a few circles and then walked her to the trailer like nothing happened. 

Then, when we got to our lesson, she was a real pill in the arena. She's not in heat, and she was as bad as she's ever been. Fortunately I've learned how to deal with her shenanigans and she does give me warning before she gets ready to pull something, so I'm able to flex her and keep her from rearing. Today she figured out that if she acted up I would flex her and she would get to stop moving, so the second I flexed her she'd just stop and rest. That's not really like her - she usually doesn't like to stand still. She also tripped a couple of times so I figured maybe something was going on with her feet and maybe she was in pain. Two weeks ago I had her shoes taken off because her hooves were getting dry and crackey. When she was acting up today in the arena I took a close look at them and it looks like they have not grown at all since the shoes were removed, or maybe they're wearing down as fast as they're growing. They look really dry and soft. My instructor has a lime arena and she said she didn't think the lime was helping things at all so we took her out to the obstacle course in the pasture and she did much better. She did accomplish more in the arena than she did last week, she just gave me more trouble about it. I think her behavior was probably from pain, and she didn't learn any new bad behaviors when she was acting up so I don't think we took a step backwards.

After that we went on a trail ride and she did threaten to rear a couple of times right at the beginning, when I made her stop moving and she didn't want to stop. She did alright after that, except for trying to kill the dogs that were with us. She hates dogs. I didn't let her hurt them.

It's getting dark faster now and it was dark by the time we got back from the trail ride, and she didn't want to load in the dark trailer. We shined a flashlight inside and then she loaded fine.

I didn't bring my saddle home. I told my instructor I'm still scared to ride her without supervision. My instructor says I'm much more calm now and really doing a good job of handling things, but I feel like if she wasn't there with me I'd panic again. She gave me some hoof dressing to use and I hope as soon as the nail holes grow out her hooves will be OK again.

I'm pretty doubtful that we'll do any trail riding without professional supervision this year. It's kind of disappointing. 

PJ isn't getting ridden at all, maybe I'll bring him on some of the group trail rides. I got him as a "husband horse" and my husband doesn't care that much about riding.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Considering Ona's rather ... assertive? ... personality, I'd like to plan ahead for any future tricks she might decide to try so I know what to do BEFORE the tricks happen and I can avoid over-reacting out of surprise. 

She can be a real turd and, although I know a lot of people don't think horses can pre-meditate, I sometimes think she messes with people. When she was 2 or 2 1/2 I brought her to her first trainer. The trainer wasn't harsh, exactly, but I think she pushed Ona a little harder than she wanted to be pushed and maybe pulled on the bit too hard. When the trainer brought her back in the barn, Ona trapped her in a corner with her body. She didn't hurt the trainer, but she didn't let her out until she was darn good and ready. I used to like to do what I could with her but since I wasn't a trainer and I was warned I might ruin her I made a point of not doing anything unless I was advised to do so. The trainer recommended that I just go out and do the "plastic bag on the end of a lunge whip" thing. We were in the middle of the pasture and I was kind of dragging the plastic bag toward her on the ground. Ona wasn't trapped, I didn't even have her on a lead, and she attacked that plastic bag with a vengeance LOL. She stomped the poor thing to death. She hates dogs and will go after them big time. I'm pretty sure a nasty gash she once had on her leg was caused by a dog or coyote because ever since that happened, she's been aggressive toward dogs. She's generally not spooky. She just spooks in place.

She's 5 1/2 and she has never harmed a person. She's never kicked or stomped anyone. She did nip my dad once. He lives next door and goes out in the pasture to feed her carrots frequently. He was out there working one day, without carrots, and she nipped him lightly on the shoulder leaving a small bruise. He said "Hey!!" and she trotted off, apparently laughing. She is, without a doubt, pushy, but I wouldn't call her mean (except to dogs, of course). 

There's no doubt in my mind she's going to try to get creative when I'm riding her without the trainer present and I'd just like to be forewarned and forearmed.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

She is not creative, but a horse without clear boundaries, and certainly should not be hand fed treats, by someone who is not very tuned in to keeping a horse respectful
It is also good to act like nothing happened, if a horse does a true fear spook for instance, but you need to get after a horse for rearing, when handled on the ground or riding
Rearing can become a form of resistance, an escalation of balking.
Pinning person against a wall, shows the horse has little respect of human space.
Far as the dogs-mine are allowed to get after any strange dog in their pasture, and my dogs are never allowed to chase horses.
I ride with people that ride with dogs, and take my own dog along, and when my horse is ridden, not allowed to get after a dog.
Your horse , in order to become a truly nice horse to ride, needs clear , fair and firm boundaries
When she rears in hand, use something to tap those front legs, until they are back on the ground, or lead her with a chain over the nose. Rearing has to be both made hard to do, and an attempt to do so, have negative consequences.
A horse that wants to rear under saddle, first has to stall out, then go up. 
I would do more then flex, the head. Either spur that horse forward, or take that head away and then really boot those hips around
You have to make the wrong thing be the hard thing to do, so that a horse does not even try to do it in the future.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you, Smilie. I did have a stud chain on her when she reared but I was afraid to pop it when she was so high up. I was afraid she might go over backwards. She was really high up! I don't know if I could have reached her front legs to tap them.

The hardest thing for me is to know just how much to react. I'm willing to be as firm as I have to be, just don't want to go overboard


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I feel like this time period is very crucial and if I mess things up she will become impossible for me to handle. I'm hoping this won't take forever to get through? How little long should it take to get past this?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I read through your whole thread and want to say I'm impressed! I wish I could find a trainer like yours! Keep up the good work, and when you feel discouraged, think of all the progress you've made together. I know it's not easy, but it sounds like you're both coming along just fine! I look forward to hearing more. 

I thought about the raspberry leaves... have opted for Quietex on Kodak. She's only been on them a few days, and I'm handling her a LOT so we'll see if it makes a difference. What bugs me is that when I think back to last winter and spring, she was a gem. Why is she only like this in the summer? Bugs? Hormones? They do drive us crazy, but as you said earlier on this thread, a lot of horsemanship is really about problem-solving, which is what keeps us all hooked!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Ona was a gem last winter and spring too. Aren't Ona and Kodak about the same age? I get the impression that you and I have a lot in common, Acadian. We're both relatively inexperienced and in a bit (or more than a bit) over our heads, but too stubborn to back down. I don't know if I'm brave and stubborn or just plain stupid but sometimes I expect the latter. 

Ona has never hurt me. If she had, I don't think I would have the courage to get back on her and then she would spend the next 25 or so years as a pasture pet. If she is ruined, I'm the one who ruined her, and I can't let her go to auction because of my stupidity. A lot of people told me, after I bought her when she was only 6 months old, that it was a dumb thing to do and that I should get rid of her and get an older "been there, done that" horse. By the time understood the wisdom in that advice, I was already committed to her and felt like selling her would be just wrong.

That being said, though, I did buy an older "been there done that" horse and he was nothing like he was advertised to be. I think he was more dangerous than Ona, because he knew every trick in the book and had no respect for me and didn't want me riding him. Ona hasn't figured out she's stronger than me yet, but he definitely knew it. When I bought him I was a rank beginner and didn't know what a truly quiet and dependable horse acted like. I sold him pretty quickly. It wasn't me that ruined that horse, and he definitely needed a more experienced rider. After that I was seriously injured on an experienced 20-year-old lessons horse when I was taking lessons to try to get prepared for when I could ride Ona. Ona's original trainer was riding Ona, and I was riding her horse that she let her five-year-old son ride. We were trail riding, though, and the horse wasn't a trail horse. Her horse spooked and bolted and threw me onto the frozen ground. I broke my pelvis in 5 places and got a concussion, bruised my liver. It was several months before I could walk again.

I am so blessed to have found this instructor. I met a few "trainers" in the past who were definitely not what they cracked themselves up to be. This girl is calm, quiet, fair, and firm - and knows her stuff. She does a lot of competing and she's also a great teacher. She teaches special education. I was quite surprised that her prices are reasonable. She was recommended by my farrier.

While I'm muddling through getting skilled enough to ride Ona safely, and getting her trained, I do have a great trail gelding to ride. He's 18 or 19 and a great horse. I need to give him some more attention.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> Ona was a gem last winter and spring too. Aren't Ona and Kodak about the same age? I get the impression that you and I have a lot in common, Acadian. We're both relatively inexperienced and in a bit (or more than a bit) over our heads, but too stubborn to back down. I don't know if I'm brave and stubborn or just plain stupid but sometimes I expect the latter.
> 
> 
> I am so blessed to have found this instructor. I met a few "trainers" in the past who were definitely not what they cracked themselves up to be. This girl is calm, quiet, fair, and firm - and knows her stuff. She does a lot of competing and she's also a great teacher. She teaches special education. I was quite surprised that her prices are reasonable. She was recommended by my farrier.


Not saying we're in exactly the same situation, but yep, I wonder some days if I'm brave or just stupid! Last year, I used a trainer who was also recommended by my farrier (we do have so much in common, lol) to help desensitize Kodak. Young, but so mature, trying to make a name for herself, therefore reasonable rates. But she did a great job and was exactly the kind of calm, reasonable trainer Kodak needed. By the end of 6 weeks of lessons, I was happily riding Kodak out on trails! 

But somehow, somewhere, things went south this summer. Thinking I need this trainer back for a few more sessions. I dunno... definitely some stubbornness there on my part for sticking with Kodak. I also think I could just ride Harley, our 18 year old Arab out on trails. He's jiggy, but would never dump me, and would probably get better over time. He can at least do the loop around our property without me worrying that I will DIE. He's my daughter's show horse, but who knows how long that will last (he's a gem, and is NEVER getting sold, don't get me wrong! But she's 12 going on 13 so who knows...). I'll keep him forever, just so I have a horse I can plop a 5-year old kid on without worries. 

And for now, anyway, Kodak's not going anywhere. I won't venture out onto trails for a while, and maybe I'll get my trainer to ride her out first. I'm stubborn, but still want to live. I'd also prefer having the use of all my limbs and brain if possible (to the extent that they're still useful). I'm also thinking maybe I have to face my fears. 

Lately, that stupid country song keeps popping into my head... "If you can be with the one you love, love the one you're with." In some ways, I've been grieving the loss of the horse I wanted to have. Now I'm ready to move beyond that, and deal with the horse I DO have. If it means doing dressage work in my paddock to music for the next few years, I'm ok with that. I think I'm probably insane (and so do many people around me), but oh well. 

Sorry to dump all that on your thread. I look forward to hearing about more progress from you and Ona!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm considering asking my trainer to come out rail riding with me, her on PJ and me on Ona. We've ridden her trails, with her on a horse she was training and then once on the 24 year old gelding that used to be her show horse. She doesn't own a good trail horse of her own.

I don't know anything at all about dressage but maybe I should take a page from your book and put up my own arena, just stay in the arena for a while. We could practice the cowboy obstacles etc.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Red Raspberry leaves are nothing more then a good source of magnesium, so if you are already supplementing Magnesium, you are just adding another source
In fact, Mare Magic, is mainly red Raspberry leaves, inspite of it's mis leading name
I think the most important thing for people with mares that act out, is to first determine if it is actually heat related, by tracking their cycles, instead of just putting any behavior off as 'she must be in heat\.
Once that is done, you can either manage those heat cycles, thus suppress them, find out is they are 'abnormal', due to some ovarian cyst, decide whether you wish to ride them and make them ignor their hormones, or use something like Regumate.
If they are dis covered to be non heat related, you then know that what is missing is firm and consistent boundaries, wet saddle blankets- in other words, what is good for any horse, regardless of gender.
No, do not pop a horse that is already up, with that stud chain, or even pull on a normal lead shank. Go with the horse. Correct either before the horse goes up, or immediately when down.
If you know a horse i might rear, you get prepared for that chance, before it happens, and also try to prevent it in the first place. 
Leading, you can immediately disengage that hind end,-fast. A horse can't rear that way
Rearing is very dangerous, and handled correctly, a horse never learns to go up in the first place, either led or ridden.
Once it does happen, you MUST make sure it does not become an established de fault action, that the horse learns to use, when ever he does not wish to ride or lead where asked to
It is NOT a normal phase a young horse goes through, trained correctly
Your instructor should also be telling you to get after her when she calls. When ahorse calls to buddies while he is being ridden, that is also where his mind is, and not on you.
If you ever ride a stallion, you will know how important that is


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> .
> No, do not pop a horse that is already up, with that stud chain, or even pull on a normal lead shank. Go with the horse. Correct either before the horse goes up, or immediately when down.
> If you know a horse i might rear, you get prepared for that chance, before it happens, and also try to prevent it in the first place.
> Leading, you can immediately disengage that hind end,-fast. A horse can't rear that way
> ...



Today I got to learn how to do exactly what you said to do, Smilie! 

When we were getting ready to go for our lesson I caught Ona and put her stud chain on, led her through the gate and shut it, and got ready for her to try rearing - but I failed to keep it from happening and she reared, spun around, and bolted away from me giving me a rope burn. She ran up and down the fence line, and around and down the street along the fence, back and forth, as fast as she could, trying to get back in with PJ. Then she stepped on her lead rope and broke the stud chain. Fortunately, she ran into the working pen by the other gate and I was able to shut the gate and catch her.

So I texted my instructor (Nicole) and told her I wouldn't make it because Ona had reared and got away and I was going to just do some ground work with her. Nicole offered to come here and help out with the ground work. While we were waiting I put a knotted rope halter on Ona and lunged the heck out of her near the gate (and PJ), then when she was very tired I walked her away from PJ and let her rest, then went back and lunged her near PJ, then took her further away from him and let her rest. By the time Nicole got here, Ona was tuckered out. So she brought her further away from PJ and "got after her" when she went to rear, then she had me do it. Then we walked across the yard to the first gate where she likes to give me trouble and got after her when she tried to rear, and we just kept doing that - back and forth from one gate to the other - until she stopped trying to rear. PJ was freaking out running back and forth from gate to gate the whole time, which involved a long trip around the barn each way. When Ona was perfectly quiet and obedient, we brought her into the pasture and made her flex to both sides and then took her halter off and let her go.

Nicole assured me that it's going to work out. Ona figured out I wasn't going to let her rear with me riding her and we got that under control, and now she's figuring out I won't let her rear while I'm leading her, and it will be on to the next trick. Nicole said she'll keep trying to challenge me but over time she'll try less and less as she realizes she can't get away with anything and she feels she will actually be a very nice horse to ride. I hope that will be the case.

We're going to have another lesson on Saturday and Nicole is going to come here to be on standby while I load Ona up in case we have any more problems, then we're going to her place. I'm going to ride her horse so I can see what it's like to have a horse respond well to all the cues, and she'll ride Ona. Then the next lesson I'll bring PJ with me and she'll ride him.

I tell you what - I'm sure getting my $20 worth from these lessons!!


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## equitatedaily (Aug 22, 2017)

It could very well be her past rides in an arena/pasture. If there are repetitive negative experiences, that will certainly stick with a horse!
Do you have a trainer?
I would consult him/her about it. It's always very helpful working under a professional's guidance.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> I tell you what - I'm sure getting my $20 worth from these lessons!!


20$!!! Holy cow, I guess! If I were you, I'd be giving your instructor a generous Xmas bonus! 

I thought I was lucky to find someone who would come to my place for 40$. Unfortunately, she's advised me she applied for a full-time position at a vet hospital and may no longer be available to give lessons, so I'll have to find someone else. My daughter's coach charges 80$ (partly because we live an hour away). We don't have a trailer, so hauling out for lessons is not realistic, except once in a while for my daughter to show prep.


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## firstforme28 (Aug 23, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> 20$!!! Holy cow, I guess! If I were you, I'd be giving your instructor a generous Xmas bonus!
> 
> I thought I was lucky to find someone who would come to my place for 40$. Unfortunately, she's advised me she applied for a full-time position at a vet hospital and may no longer be available to give lessons, so I'll have to find someone else. My daughter's coach charges 80$ (partly because we live an hour away). We don't have a trailer, so hauling out for lessons is not realistic, except once in a while for my daughter to show prep.


 I have read some of your post but not all. The eye caught my attention and I did not see a response to that problem. You talked about her teeth and a experienced hose person could tell you if the bit is the problem. There is a reason for the mare to have new bad habits and it sounds like she is sour. There is so much I can see with a horses temperament, the way that they move and react to certain situations. You need a professional to help. There are so many so called horse trainers and without being around them you just don't know their knowledge. It seems that you can correct one problem then another one occurs and that should not happen. Until you get to the root of the problem you will not progress. In my younger days before I had the knowledge I have today I learned over time that I created the problems with a horse and now would not make the same mistake or have the same problems.To be honest, the horse is not broke. A horse being broke to ride is not the same as a broke horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

firstforme28 said:


> I have read some of your post but not all. The eye caught my attention and I did not see a response to that problem. You talked about her teeth and a experienced hose person could tell you if the bit is the problem. There is a reason for the mare to have new bad habits and it sounds like she is sour. There is so much I can see with a horses temperament, the way that they move and react to certain situations. You need a professional to help. There are so many so called horse trainers and without being around them you just don't know their knowledge. It seems that you can correct one problem then another one occurs and that should not happen. Until you get to the root of the problem you will not progress. In my younger days before I had the knowledge I have today I learned over time that I created the problems with a horse and now would not make the same mistake or have the same problems.To be honest, the horse is not broke. A horse being broke to ride is not the same as a broke horse.


I'm not sure who you are responding to? My mare has no problem with her teeth. And the OP is working with a trainer who appears to be doing an excellent job.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> 20$!!! Holy cow, I guess! If I were you, I'd be giving your instructor a generous Xmas bonus!
> 
> I thought I was lucky to find someone who would come to my place for 40$. Unfortunately, she's advised me she applied for a full-time position at a vet hospital and may no longer be available to give lessons, so I'll have to find someone else. My daughter's coach charges 80$ (partly because we live an hour away). We don't have a trailer, so hauling out for lessons is not realistic, except once in a while for my daughter to show prep.



I know, right?! Yesterday I made her promise me she'd never move away LOL. Of course I usually go to her place, except for yesterday. I'm so glad we got a trailer. There's a lot of stuff I'd go without before I'd go without that, now that we have one!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> I know, right?! Yesterday I made her promise me she'd never move away LOL. Of course I usually go to her place, except for yesterday. I'm so glad we got a trailer. There's a lot of stuff I'd go without before I'd go without that, now that we have one!


It's something I've considered long and hard, trust me! I can rent my trimmer's trailer pretty cheap, and as often as I want, but hauling to my daughter's coach is a full-day ordeal. The trailer is 20 min. away from my house, then I have to load (thankfully, Harley has improved tremendously from the first few times, but I couldn't load Kodak the other day when I tried so that would take time), drive an hour to the coach's where my daughter does an hour-long lesson, then an hour back, unload, clean out the trailer, return to owner 20 min. away, drive back home... that's 4 hours easy, usually more. I can't do that on a weekly basis even if I had a trailer. Going to start looking for a good trainer who will come to me... there are a lot of other large stables close to me (like 10 min. away max) so there has to be someone who will work with us. I feel like eyes on the ground would be so helpful! There's so much we do without realizing it. Even a video of me riding reveals so much! 

So yes, appreciate your trainer and treat her well!!!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Today I started out with Ona on a knotted rope halter and long lunge rope - so I was prepared when she tried the rear and spin thing. It was kind of a half-hearted rear and I'd arranged for a fence to be behind her when she tried to spin, then I got after her - once. I did not have to get after her again, walking her back and forth from gate to gate and then further and further from PJ, stopping and hand grazing her. She wasn't in any hurry to get back into the pasture. I also kept an eye on him and only brought her closer when he happened to be standing still. I'll try it again tomorrow and keep doing it every day until she doesn't give me any trouble leaving PJ.

Then it will be on to the next problem, I imagine.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

it is unusual here, to have a trainer come to your place
There are a few horse people, that have taken the equine coaching course, and travel to client's place, but the trainers here have full days, just working at their arenas, and you either have to take a clinic, or have a horse in training with them, and take lessons on the horse


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Well, she didn't give me any lip today. Will have to mark this day on the calendar. Didn't even think about rearing as I led her away from PJ, back and forth several times, then down the road. Once she did start to call back to him when he was hollering for her. I gave her a pop and that was the end of that.

Now I'm thinking about starting to work with him a little. I'm pretty sure he already knows how to do everything. I know his late owner took him all over the country on trail vacations. I'd like to be able to ride him out alone.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

good up date. Glad you corrected her for calling. When the horse you are handling or riding calls, then his leader is back in that pasture, and not beside him or on his back!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you, Smilie!!

I just couldn't be happier. Our lesson went AWESOME today. No trouble at all getting her away from PJ, and he was calmer too. When we got home she wasn't in any hurry to get back to him. She was pretty calm during the lesson and we were able to open and shut the rope gate for the first time and she did some side passing. Next lesson is Wednesday and until then we're going to work on getting her to stand closer to things without swinging her butt away from them. We're on our way to put her saddle up for consignment and find something a little wider and hopefully lighter. She is definitely growing fast.


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