# Sticky  This is how we train a fearless trail horse!



## Cherie

It seems that every time I come to this site, there are 2 or 3 or even more questions about training a trail horse to go anywhere and everywhere the rider points its head. Since this is what we do for a living, I thought I would try to explain what it takes and how to go about it.

We have trained nothing but trail horses since we got too old and are in too poor health to train cow horses and reining horses any more. We always rode our cow horses out and they were perfect trail horses and we sold the horses that would not make competitive cow horses as trail horses for many years - about 35 or 49 years anyway. Now, that is all we can do.

It does not take age. We have had MANY 2 year olds that would go anywhere you pointed their heads. I have sold 3 year olds to novice riders that are still perfect trail horses 10 years later. [I got 2 e-mails just last week from people that bought horses 3-5 years ago and keep me up on their adventures. Both of those horses were 3 year olds. ] 

'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider, but I have not had a problem making a good trail horse out of anything. I have made good trail horses out of many spoiled horses, but that takes a lot more skill and riding ability than what many people have. Obviously, the nicer the prospect and the better the attitude, the easier it is to make a nice horse for any purpose. We raise our own prospects for their trainability, good minds and easy going nature. We think novice riders should have that kind of horse because they are 'user friendly' and 'low maintenance'. Those are inherited characteristics.

Horses with 'big motors' like TBs and race-bred QHs and high strung horses also require more rider skill, but they cover a lot of ground and are really more suitable to those wanting to do endurance and long hard rides. If you wanted a vehicle to go fishing and hunting in and drive into the back-country, you would not buy a Corvette or a Ferrari would you? Those 'hot' horses make really fast mounted shooting horses and the ones with speed make barrel horses and other timed event horses. They just require a rider with greater skill.

Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:

1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal. 

2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask) and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.

3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all. 

If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me. You have to remember that whatever you let or ask him to do (like checking things out) is what you are teaching him to do. Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways.

4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.

5) Never ride straight toward something that you can go around. If a horse is afraid of a big tree stump, do not ride him straight toward it. [You are just setting his up to stop and back up. Remember, you are trying to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and setting him up to stop and back up is not doing that.] Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.

We help a lot of riders get past their fears on the trail. When you have an apprehensive rider that is possibly more fearful than the horse, you cannot expect that person to project a confident 'git-er-done' bold demeanor to the horse. So, the rider has to learn how to ride past their fears, focus on a place way past where they are and ride with determination to that place. You want to concentrate on getting to a place that is far beyond the object that the horse is trying to focus on. If the rider is looking at a 'booger', you can bet that the horse is going to be looking at it, too. Many people 'spook' worse than their horse. They are looking for scary objects down the trail before their horse is. If that is part of a rider's problem, they need to learn to ride far ahead of where they actually are. 

We do not spend a lot of time trying to desensitize a horse. A lot of people find this strange. Let me tell you why we put so little faith in this exercise in futility (and why I never post on those threads). You will never be able to duplicate everything that can scare a horse. Even if you did, they would encounter this obstacle in a different place on the trail and it would be different to them anyway. You train a horse to listen to you and you train a horse to ignore anything new or scary. You train a horse to go forward when you ask -- no matter what is in front of them (one of the reasons I keep harping on 'good forward impulsion' ) and you train a horse to depend solely on you. You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse.


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## AllThePrettyHorses

Thank you Cherie! Thank you thank you thank you. I'm copying this and printing it off so I can keep reading it over. I wish I were near you and could get some lessons with you guys. I suppose this will do :thumbsup: I am really glad you posted this.


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## ridergirl23

Thanks for the great post! I have seen way to many riders who are more spooky than their horses are!!


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## trailhorserider

Great post Cherie! I love reading your posts (I saved a similar post you did from a long time ago on training trail horses).

Since trail is what I "do" I really try to learn all I can. 

I seem to have a knack for riding nervous/high strung horses and I think it's because I don't feed off of their fear. It's not that I don't get afraid, because there is always a time and place that I can get scared too. But I "don't sweat the small stuff" and get bent out of shape if the horse jumps at something or worries a little or refuses to walk or gets jiggy. I just have gotten to the point that I let that stuff roll off, do the best I can to control the situation and keep riding. 

I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war. 

I usually let my horses stop and look at scary things for a moment or two and then attempt to ride on like it is nothing. Most of the time that works for me. I will keep in mind that perhaps I should just ride on like it is nothing to begin with. Sometimes a horse has so much fear of an object you can tell that if you just ride on past the horse will try to flee from it. If I feel that is going to be the case I let them "look" until I feel we can ride past it without fleeing. It seems like those few seconds lets the horse settle a bit instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction.

But in any approach, the rider needs to take the attitude that whatever the scary object is, it is nothing at all and not project nervousness to the horse. 

Thank you for the great advice.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Great post Cherie!


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## csimkunas6

Thanks for that great post!!! It will help me in the near future more than you know! Thanks again!!!


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## Cherie

Thanks folks.

For us, it is just so simple. We USE our horses. We think they should be like a truck -- You turn the key and it should start and go. We expect our horses to go anywhere we point their heads --- and they DO.

The other side of that coin is ---- We are fair and do not ask a horse to do anything that we think is unreasonable and that the horse is not ready and able to do. Then, we ask and it just happens. 

It is just like our trailer loading and standing tied. Every horse on the place just jumps into a trailer the instant you point its head at one. They stand tied all day if that is what you want. After joining a forum, I had to start analyzing exactly what we do. We just ask and it happens. I think the biggest single thing is that we expect compete obedience from day one, so our horses just never think about arguing about anything.


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## rocky pony

So glad to see some sense being posted! I start to lose faith in the Forum sometimes.
These are really great concepts, thank you for posting!


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## hillree

Thanks so much! I will be doing this with Bliss very soon!


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## tinyliny

I know that you are absolutley right, and I wish I could do what you said about riding forward when the horse starts to get worried. I know that this is what would help Mac when he gets worried on the trail (which he worries a lot, though he isn't so much spooky as worried). 

What is holding me back is that he has got me off 5 times by making incredibly sudden and unexpected spins. I'll be going along and thinking it's all going swimmingly and the next thing I know, he has kind of dropped out from under me as he bounced off his planted front legs and wheels, almost always to the right. Well, I get thrown forward and he spins out from under me. He's a bit downhill in build to begin with and if I am trotting and posting and he catches me on the up part, I am toast. At the canter he's done it and nearly pitched me. At the walk I can usually ride it out. And he's spun MANY times that were near dumpers for me but I stayed put.

SO, though I know I need to push him harder and faster forward, I find I just don't have the faith that he will stay going forward and not spin on me so fast that I'll hit the dirt , , again. (and I am not so young, either).

This is the only thing that I feel is't right between he and I . And we have worked on riding past scary things a lot and at the walk, he seems to be willing to be lead by me, but I just cannot make my mind and body commit, really committ to FORWARD! like you say is required. I am not sure if I can block out the apprehension and go.

not much you can do about that where you are, but just thought I'd put that out there.


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## faye

Most of what you have posted I agree with, however I don't agree with not letting horses look at things or investigate things.. My horses are allowed to look, they must keep walking but they can look all they want. I want the to enjoy going for a ride, not do it because they have to.

I normaly introduce my horses to traffic in long reins, you have a lot more control and the ability to make the horse go forwards.
Reeco was introduced to hacking out in this way, I must have walked miles with him in long reins, but the first time I sat on him we spent 5 mins in the school and then went out on the roads. 

He is utterly fearless out on a hack (be it on the roads or on the tracks). He has been an absolute nightmare to break and has taken me close on 9 months to actually get on him, he had a severe fear of anything behind the eyeline and heck it took 6 months to be able to long rein him without him panicing, but now that we are on him he hacks out on his own perfectly, even in the heaviest of traffic.
TBH with him in perticular I'd rather he stopped and looked because his reaction is normaly to bolt! so pushing him faster is not a good idea.

Yesterday we went out for a hack and unfortunatly Reeco lost his back end coming down a hill in slippy mud, however because he was allowed to stop and get his footing back and just stand and calm for 30 seconds, he then walked on forwards happily and without panicing and bolting off on me.


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## Joe4d

tinyliny said:


> I know that you are absolutley right, and I wish I could do what you said about riding forward when the horse starts to get worried. I know that this is what would help Mac when he gets worried on the trail (which he worries a lot, though he isn't so much spooky as worried).
> 
> What is holding me back is that he has got me off 5 times by making incredibly sudden and unexpected spins. I'll be going along and thinking it's all going swimmingly and the next thing I know, he has kind of dropped out from under me as he bounced off his planted front legs and wheels, almost always to the right. Well, I get thrown forward and he spins out from under me. He's a bit downhill in build to begin with and if I am trotting and posting and he catches me on the up part, I am toast. At the canter he's done it and nearly pitched me. At the walk I can usually ride it out. And he's spun MANY times that were near dumpers for me but I stayed put.
> 
> SO, though I know I need to push him harder and faster forward, I find I just don't have the faith that he will stay going forward and not spin on me so fast that I'll hit the dirt , , again. (and I am not so young, either).
> 
> This is the only thing that I feel is't right between he and I . And we have worked on riding past scary things a lot and at the walk, he seems to be willing to be lead by me, but I just cannot make my mind and body commit, really committ to FORWARD! like you say is required. I am not sure if I can block out the apprehension and go.
> 
> not much you can do about that where you are, but just thought I'd put that out there.


My horse had the same issue, he had been abused and was pretty spooky, he is starting to trust me and relax but he did the quick spin and sidways spring on stupid things, like a turkey feather in the trail. I ride with a horned Aussi so I never came off but probably would have in an english.

I know you cant desensitize them to everything like the OP said. But what I did was teach my horse to freeze when scared instead of bolt. Then you have a chance to collect him correct him and move on.
I call it the oogy woogy drill. On 12 foot lead I back him up then letting the rope slid ein my habd I run at him waving my arms OOGY WOOOGY WOOOGY, he used to rear and roll his eyes back but not anymore, as soon as his feet stop I stop, next day Id use a plastic bag, or a beer can with pebbles in it, always something a bit different. Same thing let him spin in circles around you but as soon as he quits moving you stop, repeat on both sides.. You arent gonna make him never afraid, but you can teach him to stop instead of bolt. Last couple big trail rides he has really come around, now he stops and looks and I give him a tap or two escalating to a pop on the withers with the reins to get him moving again if needed. He has learned he isnt getting out of it. Even if I have to get off and lead him he is going where I say. I have had him sincce July and every ride has gotten better.


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## Cherie

This is how people process this. But, it is absolutely wrong as horses do not look at it this way. 


> Most of what you have posted I agree with, however I don't agree with not letting horses look at things or investigate things.. My horses are allowed to look, they must keep walking but they can look all they want. I want the to enjoy going for a ride, not do it because they have to.


They do not keep going forward because they have to. They go forward because:
1) they trust you as the leader.
2) with you as their trusted leader, they do not feel that they have to examine things.
They are not only perfectly happy letting you decide for them. They are A LOT happier because they do not have to worry about anything.

As far as TL goes:

I would do two things right away:

First, I would get a deep seated stock saddle with big swells on it for trail riding. 

Let me explain where I am coming from. I am 65 and have horrible balance any more. My back is so bad I can no longer lope a horse and sure cannot work a cow any more. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Degenerative joint (disk) disease and severe Scoliosis. My MRIs would pass for a 90 year old with a bad back. My Dr. says I should not be able to walk much less ride. I have two younger brothers that have had multiple spinal surgeries and are complete invalids. I am convinced that my insistence to keep riding as much and as long an I can is the only reason I am walking and for sure, still riding. My Dr. just shakes his head. On top of my back problems, my hips and knees are also about gone. My hips were both injected about a month ago. Again, Dr. just shook his head. 

So, you cannot still ride with a greater handicap than I have. Somewhere in this degeneration of my body, my balance went out the window. I have taken a couple of pretty hard falls in the past year. So, I am riding a saddle with a deeper seat and looking for one I like better. I have always ridden a saddle designed for reining training, but they are not deep enough and I can't stay in one any more. 

Secondly, are you making your horse suffer any consequences for spinning around? You should! If your horse ducks around to the right and you don't go off, You should instantly snatch her head to the left, kick her her in the right ribs and spin her 3 or 4 times to the left. I have found that when I do this with a green horse, they hesitate and start 'spooking in place'. You cannot stop a horse from being a horse. They are a prey animal and are 'hard-wired' to keep themselves safe. It is our job to constantly remind them that we are in charge, that they need to trust us completely and that we will not accept spooking and bolting.

These are the methods I have not only used to make good trail horses, but they are the methods I have used to train horses for CLEET certification for horses to be used as police horses to work in riots and big crowds. If you can train a TB or TB type horse for police work, a trail ride in the woods should be a piece of cake.

Like a good trail horse at my house, a police horse is never shown a 'booger'. They are just taught to trust their rider and follow directives given by that rider. They are never taught to examine things. That is the last thing you want them doing.

[If it makes you feel any better, your horse is a superb athlete. It takes a really athletic horse like a cutting horse to do a 180 so fast that it 'drops' in the front end. This is one of the things we look for in a good cutter or cowhorse.]


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## flytobecat

Mona is a spinner when she spooks and she's fast. I can't sit her spins and neither can my sister (who is 10x the rider I am). Darn QH genes.
2 things I've learned this past year are
I anticipate Mona's spooking which makes her spookier, and I give her too much time to react to what is scaring her.
I've stopped looking for demons on the trail (I can't anticipate everything anyway), and when I feel that Mona is about to spook I push her forward instead of stopping. Nothing dramatic just a nudge with my leg. She doesn't spook near as much as she used too. 

Cherie great post.


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## Serendipitous

I agree with your post mostly as well. The one exception I would say is that I am a little more careful before I dismiss my horse when she won't go forward (not spooking, that she doesn't do very much). 

A year ago I was riding on unfamiliar trails, and there was some downed barbwire partially covered with leaves. I didn't see it, but when my horse stopped, I just figured that she had a "mentally stuck" moment, so I urged her on. She went because she trusted my leadership, got caught in the wire, went down on her knees and I rolled over her shoulder unharmed. She struggled to her feet and was frantic for a minute before I stood up and calmed her down. We walked back to the trailer. She had multiple cuts on her legs and one on her lip. She still trusts me, and goes where I ask her to go, but if she ever hesitates that strongly, I look around before asking her to move on. I like that she has a mind of her own, and a sense of self-preservation that will keep me safe as well if I let it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie

I too agree with your post mostly, Cherie. Some very good advice I reckon. I think there is a huge difference between doing what you suggest when a horse already trusts you as a worthy leader - and as you say, never asking anything of a horse they're not ready for - and following that kind of approach if you're not confident &/or your horse isn't confident of you. For eg. apparently ignoring the horse's own 'opinions' and making a horse work fast when they are afraid is just asking for trouble in many situations, I reckon. Not to mention barbed wire, electricity, snakes... IOW, real dangers us humans may not be aware of.

I also agree with faye that you can indeed 'have your cake & eat it' and allow a horse to explore & check things out too. Many do enjoy this, IME. While I agree it's important to train them to follow your instruction, including ignoring stuff when you say, I don't personally want to knock the natural curiosity out of them either & disallow it completely. While I also agree that forcing a horse to approach a 'scary' is not helpful, if the horse wants to 'investigate', I generally allow them to.

I also think desensitising a horse to a variety of stuff is far from futile(depending how it's done of course!). It's not about getting them desensitised to everything they're ever going to see, but I think it helps them to learn to trust that they're safe in your presence & generalise that trust in the face of wierd & wonderful situations and it also helps them - and their people - know what to do in the face of their fear.


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## tinyliny

Cherie said:


> This is how people process this. But, it is absolutely wrong as horses do not look at it this way.
> They do not keep going forward because they have to. They go forward because:
> 1) they trust you as the leader.
> 2) with you as their trusted leader, they do not feel that they have to examine things.
> They are not only perfectly happy letting you decide for them. They are A LOT happier because they do not have to worry about anything.
> 
> As far as TL goes:
> 
> I would do two things right away:
> 
> First, I would get a deep seated stock saddle with big swells on it for trail riding.
> 
> Let me explain where I am coming from. I am 65 and have horrible balance any more. My back is so bad I can no longer lope a horse and sure cannot work a cow any more. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteoarthritis, Degenerative joint (disk) disease and severe Scoliosis. My MRIs would pass for a 90 year old with a bad back. My Dr. says I should not be able to walk much less ride. I have two younger brothers that have had multiple spinal surgeries and are complete invalids. I am convinced that my insistence to keep riding as much and as long an I can is the only reason I am walking and for sure, still riding. My Dr. just shakes his head. On top of my back problems, my hips and knees are also about gone. My hips were both injected about a month ago. Again, Dr. just shook his head.
> 
> So, you cannot still ride with a greater handicap than I have. Somewhere in this degeneration of my body, my balance went out the window. I have taken a couple of pretty hard falls in the past year. So, I am riding a saddle with a deeper seat and looking for one I like better. I have always ridden a saddle designed for reining training, but they are not deep enough and I can't stay in one any more.
> 
> Secondly, are you making your horse suffer any consequences for spinning around? You should! If your horse ducks around to the right and you don't go off, You should instantly snatch her head to the left, kick her her in the right ribs and spin her 3 or 4 times to the left. I have found that when I do this with a green horse, they hesitate and start 'spooking in place'. You cannot stop a horse from being a horse. They are a prey animal and are 'hard-wired' to keep themselves safe. It is our job to constantly remind them that we are in charge, that they need to trust us completely and that we will not accept spooking and bolting.
> 
> These are the methods I have not only used to make good trail horses, but they are the methods I have used to train horses for CLEET certification for horses to be used as police horses to work in riots and big crowds. If you can train a TB or TB type horse for police work, a trail ride in the woods should be a piece of cake.
> 
> Like a good trail horse at my house, a police horse is never shown a 'booger'. They are just taught to trust their rider and follow directives given by that rider. They are never taught to examine things. That is the last thing you want them doing.
> 
> [If it makes you feel any better, your horse is a superb athlete. It takes a really athletic horse like a cutting horse to do a 180 so fast that it 'drops' in the front end. This is one of the things we look for in a good cutter or cowhorse.]


I am not competition for the most 'bunged up" rider out there. I am pretty much a fat middleaged housewife who has a decent seat but certainly no cowgirl type. Mac is athletic and can spin marvelously. The thing with him is the way that he will do this with no real warning. I get warnings that he is worried about something, sure, and I bring his attention back to me. But the times he's spun and put me off have all been so utterly out of the blue it's shocking. Just when it seems everygthing is going so well . . .

I do need a better saddle, though, and I think I will start looking! (I love treatinf myself to new tack.) I ride Mac in a show saddle, actually, not a deep seat. (Billy Cook).

The part Cherie wrote about consequences is something I will put into effect. If I can get after him , I will. In the past I had just been recoving myself (if I was half off) and just going on as if nothing happened. But I think I need to change that approach.

He doesn't spin hardly at all for his owner, but of course, she has tons more self confidence and has been riding since diapers.

So, I thank you for your feedback . I will go out and give it a go. Just getting less and less willing to put myself in the position to hit the dirt.


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## phoenix

Good post, I'm trying to become more of a confident leader with my horse so he can get on better on trail. Like today, i took him out walking on the trail just to cool him off and stretch out my legs; we came to an open field with picnic tables in and he stopped to look so i took him over and lunged him right next to the tables. On the way back he didn't even look at the tables.


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## wild_spot

100% agreed. 

I have always done the leg yielding thing when my horses want to look at something. I have to say you are one of the first people ive found who do the same! It just makes sense to me. And produced the best trail horse I've had. My last horse wasn't great, too inherently spooky, but manageable. I think my new girl will be good with miles on her - once she learns to keep her attention on me and not everything else!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher

if you ride with a strong enough focus, and are any good at using the more basic aids to make that focus a reality, excessive or long term spooking problems just don't happen.

looking at things doesn't matter imo, as long as the back, legs and most importantly the feet of the horse aren't influenced in any way, and remain obedient, the rest of the horse can do whatever it wants

out of interest cherie, what type of saddle do you use now?


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## Susan Crumrine

I think a brave rider makes a brave horse.


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## Tianimalz

Indie and I must be horrible trail riders I suppose. She'll go wherever I ask, but she always questions first and I listen. If she is questioning me (like pausing, lifting her head up, or flickering her ears; these have been the cues I learned from her) then I inspect what it was she was nervous about BEFORE I make her go through it. I find it unfair to just make her do something before I'll do it myself. 
A lot of horses are able to meet people half way in communication, I take advantage of that. People can call it bad trail manners, or bad riding; but she doesn't spook, buck, rear or anything of the sort, she listens to me... but more importantly we respect each other. Indie has learned that if she ASKS to stop for a break on the long trails, or to look at something; more then often I'll let her. Why? Because we are both out to have fun. 
I never agreed with the whole completely dominate over the horse routine personally... all the horses I ever see walk out of it are dead as door nails. I would HATE to have a clinic trained horse... but that's just me. I like Indie wither her personality, I like seeing her explore her surroundings, and I love her being in a partnership with me. Not just a "do whatever I say" relationship... because that doesn't sound like much of a relationship to me. 

I don't teach Indie to "be afriad," I encourage her to look around, to sniff around the trail, I want her to be aware of her surroundings because I trust her as much as she trusts me. It may be wishy washy, but I don't believe that a fun trail horse is one that you just sit on. If my horse "starts to show fear" then I let her figure it out, use that brain of hers and see that it is nothing bad, and know what? It worked. The horse is nearly bombproof (Unless there is a wet box on the side of the road :rofl: ), and there are times where she has seen things that could have hurt us that I hadn't! 

One time we had an encounter with a big old dog that had come out of the woods. Now I guess as leader I should have chased it off when it growled at us, but that is kind of unlikely, isn't it? Instead Indie pinned her ears, and when I gave her the loose rein she charged the dog and had it take off. I don't want my horse to relay soley on what I say, in my eyes that is dangerous. 

But I guess that's just us. To each his own


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## crimsonsky

this is exactly how i am raising my colt. i want him to just do and thus far he does. makes for a happy life for all involved.


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## loosie

Tianimalz said:


> we respect each other. Indie has learned that if she ASKS to stop for a break on the long trails, or to look at something; more then often I'll let her. Why? Because we are both out to have fun.
> I never agreed with the whole completely dominate over the horse routine personally... all the horses I ever see walk out of it are dead as door nails. I would HATE to have a clinic trained horse... but that's just me.


Me too. You describe it very well. Tho not sure about the clinic trained comment... must be different clinics you're going to!:lol: 

I don't think obedience is necessarily incompatible with not respecting the horse or allowing it to enjoy the 'work' too though. While I often *allow* and encourage my horses to explore or whatever, they learn that I won't just *let* them do it whenever and while I'm considerate of their interests & concerns, there are still 'rules of play' and I'm the leader, so if there's a 'job' to be done, they do it. I think it has to be that way, for safety, among other things. I think a huge part of it is being clear & consistent with the rules.


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## Tianimalz

> I don't think obedience is necessarily incompatible with not respecting the horse or allowing it to enjoy the 'work' too though. While I often *allow* and encourage my horses to explore or whatever, they learn that I won't just *let* them do it whenever and while I'm considerate of their interests & concerns, there are still 'rules of play' and I'm the leader, so if there's a 'job' to be done, they do it. I think it has to be that way, for safety, among other things. I think a huge part of it is being clear & consistent with the rules.


Agreed  If we are just trudging down the trail, then Indie is free to sniff and look at whatever she wants... she often chooses not too, but that's her choice. But if I *feel* her not able to make a decision (sometimes there are forks in the road, or simple stuff like going left or right around a tree... Indie will stutter in her step, she's asking me to choose), then I'll quickly pick the path. It's a good system we have.

But if we are doing hard *work* where it demands she pays attention... like races with friends :lol: then I require her full cooperation and get it without a fight when I ask for it clearly.

Horses aren't stupid animals, they can tell when they have to put effort into things, and when it's okay to just relax and have a good time, just gotta let them. There's a difference between obedience and domination.


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## pintophile

But the difference between you guys and Cherie is that Cherie does this for a living. Training a good trail horse is her job. Working through your horse's fear and letting it explore and be curious is a fine way to do it, but those horses are more your "pets", hobby, and companions than anything, and you likely plan on keeping them around. Nobody wants to buy a trail horse that needs to stop and look at everything; when people are on the market for a trail horse, they look for the quietest, most willing, most unflappable horse they can find, not one who wants to stop, look, and investigate everything.

I really love this thread and all the advice Cherie has given; it's given me lots to think about.


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## Tianimalz

pintophile said:


> But the difference between you guys and Cherie is that Cherie does this for a living. Training a good trail horse is her job. Working through your horse's fear and letting it explore and be curious is a fine way to do it, but those horses are more your "pets", hobby, and companions than anything, and you likely plan on keeping them around. Nobody wants to buy a trail horse that needs to stop and look at everything; when people are on the market for a trail horse, they look for the quietest, most willing, most unflappable horse they can find, not one who wants to stop, look, and investigate everything.
> 
> I really love this thread and all the advice Cherie has given; it's given me lots to think about.


You're very much right... and that kind makes me sad to think about, that most people just want a "quiet" horse who they just hop on and go. These are the type of horses that are so dead like that it can't be much anything less than riding a machine. 
But then that's just me, I suppose at least these sort of horses have a future home with someone with kids.


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## wild_spot

You obviously haven't met a good solid well trained trail horse who loves their job. 

I can put anyone on my Arab. He is quiet, well trained, and will go where he is pointed. He still has huge amounts of personality and spirit. He is nowhere near 'shut down' yet he gives total obedience to his rider on the trails. Horses thrive under clear leadership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara

Tianimalz said:


> You're very much right... and that kind makes me sad to think about, that most people just want a "quiet" horse who they just hop on and go. These are the type of horses that are so dead like that it can't be much anything less than riding a machine.
> But then that's just me, I suppose at least these sort of horses have a future home with someone with kids.


A quiet, well-trained, responsive trail horse is quite different from a deadhead. I think you are confusing the two. Please don't be sad for my quiet horse that has the confidence to "think" her way through a situation rather than engage in the "fight or flight" instinct. 

I think Cherie hit the nail on the head when she said that she "uses" her horses. The more rides they get with solid, consistent aids, the better they will become.


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## Tianimalz

> A quiet, well-trained, responsive trail horse is quite different from a deadhead. I think you are confusing the two. Please don't be sad for my quiet horse that has the confidence to "think" her way through a situation rather than engage in the "fight or flight" instinct.
> 
> I think Cherie hit the nail on the head when she said that she "uses" her horses. The more rides they get with solid, consistent aids, the better they will become.


I cannot help it makes me frown a bit that most horses don't get to show their personality, instead it's trained out of them. Most are told that at all times under saddle they have to be quiet with their heads down and done exactly what their told and are not allowed to use their intelligence to question it. Like I've said, it shines to me more of ownership, than the friendship I've seen be allowed to shine in some horses when given a chance. 

Like I've said, their is a difference between a good horse who does whet they're told, and one that doesn't ever have a chance to ask differently. 

But that is my opinion, I can hardly change it, and it's only worth as much credit to someone else as other people are willing to give it :wink:


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## loosie

pintophile said:


> But the difference between you guys and Cherie is that Cherie does this for a living. Training a good trail horse is her job. Working through your horse's fear and letting it explore and be curious is a fine way to do it, but those horses are more your "pets", hobby, and


Well yes, you're right... now. I used to train horses for others though & I didn't do it much differently, but that's a big part of the reason I reckon I didn't make much money from it:wink: - I took my time & I reckon my way can be a fair bit slower, whereas doing it as a 'job' would require things to just get done. I'm in no way knocking Cherie's ideas, as said, don't necessarily think her way is incompatible either, just giving my take on it.


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## loosie

Tianimalz said:


> You're very much right... and that kind makes me sad to think about, that most people just want a "quiet" horse who they just hop on and go. These are the type of horses that are so dead like that it can't be much anything less than riding a machine.
> But then that's just me, I suppose at least these sort of horses have a future home with someone with kids.


I don't know that most of them want that or not, although of course some do & some train like that:evil:. But 'quiet', 'calm' 'obedient' 'fearless' whatever doesn't at all mean necessarily 'dead' IMO & while I agree fully with how you've described your relationship with your horse, my perception of Cherie's post didn't necessarily give me the idea of 'robotic' or 'dead' horses at all. I think it's not so much _what_ you do in that way, but _how_ you do it & your mindset as to whether you create a 'good' or 'deadhead' horse. It isn't black & white.

Yeah, at the mo I have young kids and I absolutely do want my horses to be obedient for them. That's not to say I'd expect the horses to behave the same with them as me in the face of 'scaries', because my kids aren't confident yet, so I will be in control, leading the horses, either on foot or from my horse, until they are. I would not even consider asking them to do some of the things Cherie suggested ATM, although I don't have a problem with them myself. That's the main difference I see - between a confident, competent horseperson directing a horse and a less confident or competent person asking for it. But the post was about training the horse, not about what just anyone should do *to* a horse in those situations, the way I understood it.


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## Cherie

Thank you Wild Spot and Sahara and the others that actually understand and have ridden a good trail horse or a good ranch horse. A good well-trained saddle horse is not a 'dead-head'. I hate dead-heads -- except that I keep a couple around that I can put total dummies on and I know they will baby-sit even the dumbest rider that is doing everything wrong despite three people telling them not to. 

Don't tell me that a horse is a dead-head just because he does not give you resistance and have his own agenda. Don't tell me a horse that you can run out after a steer that needs doctoring and rope and doctor him all by yourself (with the help of your horse, of course), is a dead-head. Don't tell me that a horse that carries a complete stranger up above timber-line in a place so steep and rough that a person would be hard-put to walk, is a dead-head. You get in places like that, you don't need a horse that wants to stop and sniff around or turn around to look or stuff. 

I think that the people that actually think a horse loses its personality and its 'trained out of them' {choke} have just never ridden a good, well-mannered trail horse or a good ranch horse in their entire lives. How in the world can resistance and arguing be mistaken for personality? 

I have never seen a well-trained trail horse or ranch horse stumble over a snake or anything else. But I can tell you that when I have a well-trained horse stop dead in his tracks, I know there is a real serious concern and I am smart enough to not force him forward. I KNOW there is something there. I never have to wonder if he is just looking or sniffing or if there is really a problem. 

I had that exact thing happen about 5 years ago. I had a really solid ranch horse bow up his neck, stop and back up a step. I told my husband, who behind me, to help me see what was wrong because I knew something was wrong. About that time a Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped. 

So no! A well-broke horse does not lose its personality or character. I just know there are an awful lot of people that have never ridden one.


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## loosie

Cherie said:


> Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.


OMG!! I thought we had some scary snakes in Australia!!:shock: Didn't know those guys got that big!


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## Tianimalz

I have ridden very well mannered trail horses a good part of my riding years :wink: I very well know the differences, I've ridden and worked with them first hand.

I suppose what I am trying to say about this whole thing, and not by any means start a fight- just point out my own thoughts, is that I just don't agree with the training method, with not letting the horse do anything but _listen_ to whom it may concern. I'm a very give _and_ take person.
Everyone trains a little differently, just because I look at things a little differently doesn't mean I have a bad horse, and it doesn't by any means imply she is a misbehaving heaven as your post kind of makes it sound. I'm sure your horses are well behaved, and I'll admit that you have way more years on me, but that doesn't mean I have to agree, just shrug and be glad that they get good homes. 

Looking up, I think I could have tweeked my earlier words to be stated a little better, but the meaning in there holds true for me. I didn't come to the thread looking for a fight or get people to my "side", I was interested in the title and ended up not agreeing 100%. 


And btw:


> Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.


That isn't a snake, that's a small dragon :shock::rofl:


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## Sahara

Tianimalz said:


> just because I look at things a little differently doesn't mean I have a bad horse,


Yet, this is exactly what you implied with your remarks to everyone else. You feel sad for a quiet horse. I feel sad for a spoiled rotten rank horse. I can easily find a home for my sensible trail horses. How many people want a horse that puts up a fight with every fork in the road? 

To each his own, I spose.


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## Corporal

Thanks, Cherie!!! You are a GREAT resource, and a terrific example of the old type of training I used to see as a child, but is often absent today. BTW, you were absolutely right about tying up. **hugs** 
Last weekend, I had some extra help so we worked our 3 horses all day. At the end of the day, I tied up my 5 yo's to untack and brush, and when I unhooked my 5 yo QH, he just stayed at his spot, foot cocked. I had to PULL him away so he knew he was free--SOOO funny, but I have even _more_ confidence in him after this.
I think that a well broken horse is just like a brand new car--EVERYTHING works right for both. You can get braver and gain confidence in your horse by HOURS AND HOURS, ad nauseum, of schooling. If you are most confident in a small arena, school there. If it's on the trail, school there. Everybody wants this PC "personal relationship" with their horse, _which is only possible by wasting time with them._ You sacrifice other things in your life to do this, but I think I already watch too much tv and spend too much time on the I'Net, LOL!! *I believe that a horse is TRUELY happy when he has and he knows his job.
*Again, CHERIE, EXCELLENT post!!


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## AmazinCaucasian

Cherie said:


> Thank you Wild Spot and Sahara and the others that actually understand and have ridden a good trail horse or a good ranch horse. A good well-trained saddle horse is not a 'dead-head'. I hate dead-heads -- except that I keep a couple around that I can put total dummies on and I know they will baby-sit even the dumbest rider that is doing everything wrong despite three people telling them not to.
> 
> Don't tell me that a horse is a dead-head just because he does not give you resistance and have his own agenda. Don't tell me a horse that you can run out after a steer that needs doctoring and rope and doctor him all by yourself (with the help of your horse, of course), is a dead-head. Don't tell me that a horse that carries a complete stranger up above timber-line in a place so steep and rough that a person would be hard-put to walk, is a dead-head. You get in places like that, you don't need a horse that wants to stop and sniff around or turn around to look or stuff.
> 
> I think that the people that actually think a horse loses its personality and its 'trained out of them' {choke} have just never ridden a good, well-mannered trail horse or a good ranch horse in their entire lives. How in the world can resistance and arguing be mistaken for personality?
> 
> I have never seen a well-trained trail horse or ranch horse stumble over a snake or anything else. But I can tell you that when I have a well-trained horse stop dead in his tracks, I know there is a real serious concern and I am smart enough to not force him forward. I KNOW there is something there. I never have to wonder if he is just looking or sniffing or if there is really a problem.
> 
> I had that exact thing happen about 5 years ago. I had a really solid ranch horse bow up his neck, stop and back up a step. I told my husband, who behind me, to help me see what was wrong because I knew something was wrong. About that time a Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.
> 
> So no! A well-broke horse does not lose its personality or character. I just know there are an awful lot of people that have never ridden one.


Well put. I've only seen 2 rattlesnakes here and both were spotted from the back of a good rope horse while looking for cows in the woods. Of course, the horse saw them before I did and stopped and perked up. When that happens, I know he's either spotted a cow or something that bears watchin'. Brilliant thread and post btw!


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## Tianimalz

> Yet, this is exactly what you implied with your remarks to everyone else. You feel sad for a quiet horse. I feel sad for a spoiled rotten rank horse. I can easily find a home for my sensible trail horses. How many people want a horse that puts up a fight with every fork in the road?
> 
> To each his own, I spose.
> ​


 I never said my horse puts up a fight... but okay. I've had many neighbors tell me they would buy my mare in an instant if I were to put her up for sale... but alrighty. 

I'm not gonna argue.


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## Sahara

Tianimalz said:


> I never said my horse puts up a fight... but okay. I've had many neighbors tell me they would buy my mare in an instant if I were to put her up for sale... but alrighty.
> 
> I'm not gonna argue.


I am not saying that your horse specifically puts up a fight. What I am trying to point out is that many horses will test a rider at every given opportunity, often unbeknownst to the rider. This testing will escalate over time until the rider is no longer the brains of the operation. That does not make a good trail horse. I also want my horse to be inquisitive and curious, but he can do that on his own time. When the saddle goes on there is only "one cook in the kitchen", so to speak. That in no way implies that he is "dead". It implies that he is well-trained.


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## Sahara

Tianimalz said:


> She'll go wherever I ask, but she always questions first and I listen. I find it unfair to just make her do something before I'll do it myself.
> Indie has learned that if she ASKS to stop for a break on the long trails, or to look at something; more then often I'll let her. Why? Because we are both out to have fun.
> )


This is the behavior I am referring to. With _some_ horses this is a sign of rebellion and misbehavior. It has the _potential_ to build into a horse that won't leave the barn yard because it doesn't want to. "Hey, if I stop and raise my head and flick my ears and turn around this chick won't make me leave the barn. We are in a partnership, so she thinks. Boy, do I have her number! Tee-hee." Can you see where I am going with this. You obviously have a horse that hasn't gotten to this point and maybe she never will. How many novice riders will have a willing partner if the horse makes all the decisions. Just something to think about.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to you and your horse, but many new comers read these boards and they ought to know straight away that relationships with horses aren't all rainbows and butterflies.


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## loosie

Sahara said:


> It has the _potential_ to build into a horse that won't leave the barn yard because it doesn't want to. "Hey, if I stop and raise my head and flick my ears and turn around this chick won't make me leave the barn. We are in a partnership, so she thinks. Boy, do I have her number! Tee-hee."


Reminds me of my first horse, before he was mine & I wasn't very experienced & didn't have a saddle. He trained me very well!:lol: He'd humour me, because he liked going out & about too, but when he'd had enough, he'd rear & spin, so I'd just think 'OK, best go home now!' Didn't take long for me to learn his signals so he no longer bothered having to rear.... When I finally bought him I'd had a lot more experience on other horses & first couple of rides out he did the rear & spin thing & I just laughed and spun him around & kept going.... he never tried it again!


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## kait18

tinyliny said:


> I know that you are absolutley right, and I wish I could do what you said about riding forward when the horse starts to get worried. I know that this is what would help Mac when he gets worried on the trail (which he worries a lot, though he isn't so much spooky as worried).
> 
> What is holding me back is that he has got me off 5 times by making incredibly sudden and unexpected spins. I'll be going along and thinking it's all going swimmingly and the next thing I know, he has kind of dropped out from under me as he bounced off his planted front legs and wheels, almost always to the right. Well, I get thrown forward and he spins out from under me. He's a bit downhill in build to begin with and if I am trotting and posting and he catches me on the up part, I am toast. At the canter he's done it and nearly pitched me. At the walk I can usually ride it out. And he's spun MANY times that were near dumpers for me but I stayed put.
> 
> SO, though I know I need to push him harder and faster forward, I find I just don't have the faith that he will stay going forward and not spin on me so fast that I'll hit the dirt , , again. (and I am not so young, either).
> 
> This is the only thing that I feel is't right between he and I . And we have worked on riding past scary things a lot and at the walk, he seems to be willing to be lead by me, but I just cannot make my mind and body commit, really committ to FORWARD! like you say is required. I am not sure if I can block out the apprehension and go.
> 
> not much you can do about that where you are, but just thought I'd put that out there.


im in the same boat as you :/ don't worry 
i have tried to push him past things and from being thrown twice by him i get alittle takena back to go forward all the time... wish we could just take that part of our memory out  and continue on


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## Cherie

For those that asked what kind of saddle is easier to stay in:

I have found a deep seated ranch saddle built on an 'Association Tree'. These are the deep seated saddles used by saddle bronc riders. I have a saddle like that, with a plain, hard seat, that we have used for years on colts. It is very secure and a LOT harder to fall out of.

But, it is not very comfortable for long rides. I may have a local saddle maker make a saddle for me on an Association Tree, but have it made with a dropped rigging (like the reining saddles that have less bulk under the riders upper leg) and a padded seat that is more narrow like the pleasure saddles made for female riders. The mens' saddles have much wider, flatter seats. 

The other thing a rider can do is add 'bucking rolls' to the back of the pommel of the saddle. Many bronc riders and colt starters also use these on every saddle they ride. 

I used to love riding Hunt Seat, but I have not put my Passier Saddle on a horse in 6 or 7 years. I just cannot stay in it any more -- even on a really broke horse.


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## Corporal

Cherie said:


> ... I have a saddle like that, with a plain, hard seat, that we have used for years on colts. It is very secure and a LOT harder to fall out of...


OMG, Cherie--I think I have one of those!! I have this old Western with a hard-as-a-rock seat that looks terribly uncomfortable, but it fits like a glove. It's going to the saddlers this winter bc the stirrup leathers are worn out on the bottom, but I'll never part with it.
You know, I think a discussion about herd dynamics is in order on this thread considering the notion that your horse is your "friend" and your "equal." IF you horse is your friend, he/she cannot be your equal. Horses, dogs, cats--ANY social animal--understands that a relationship means one is alpha and the other is beta. YOU need to always be the alpha, and your horse needs to always be the beta. It makes your horse comfortable to know where he stands with you. He will be out of control is he gets to be the controller.
I think I can safely say that everyone here desires that their horse(s) enjoy their job. I expect my seasoned horses to help me do things when I ride them, and it is appropriate for your horse to keep thinking. In fact, if they "zone out" when you ride habitually, they might wake up and react to something that frightens them. Certainly work horses, like Cherie uses are not being denied life simply bc they are expected to work hard.


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## Pat Miran

Very interesting post - obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't agree with the 'going fast' past something scary. I know someone who rides their horse that way and everytime she comes to the 'scary thing' in the trail it looks a lot like bolting to me. Also, I don't like to refer to horses as machines - I've heard of too many people using two-by-fours to get the engine tuned.


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## pintophile

Pat Miran said:


> I don't agree with the 'going fast' past something scary. I know someone who rides their horse that way and everytime she comes to the 'scary thing' in the trail it looks a lot like bolting to me.


I have found the total opposite. A horse's natural defense is to run, so a horse that's moving out and going places is much less likely to spook. That's why the Thoroughbreds on the track don't spook-they're already going full tilt. 

I have found that when I try to keep a horse slow and from bolting, that only has the adverse affect and convinces them they're trapped and I'm keeping them in that scary situation with no possibility of escape. On the opposite hand, when a horse "freezes up" and starts moving slowly and hesitantly, it gives them a lot more trust and respect (in me) when I force them to get their butts moving and keep listening to me, no matter what they're scared of. 

In the field, I have seen time and time again the lead horse punishing another for being an idiot-I don't really think they give a rat's behind what is bothering that other horse, only that that other horse isn't listening and being respectful when it should be at all times. And while I don't ever think punishing a frightened horse is the way to go, being firm and ignoring their fear helps to show them that you're in charge no matter what, and no matter how scared they are, you and what you are asking should always be first on their minds.


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## Cherie

Obviously you didn't read what I wrote. I did not say anywhere that you run away from a fearful object. Quite the opposite -- I explain that you should never let a horse 'turn tail' to anything he fears. You speed up the pace when going toward the fearful object. You keep the horse's attention on you and your agenda and keep the horse from having his own. You keep his feet busy and you keep his mind on you. This is what I said to do:



> Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.


 Does this sound like a horse bolting away from something with the blessing of his rider? I think not.


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## Pat Miran

> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.


Cherie - I was referring to your number 4 point in your post. I don't feel going fast past something spooky is a good idea - although, in some circumstances its all you can do. And yes, it does have the feeling of bolting.

Pintophile - Yes, I agree with you that the horse's natural instinct is to run away from danger. That is why I'm not keen on letting my horse speed up the pace past something spooky. Also, I've raced my horse with others and I have experienced his being startled into changing direction by moving to the side. Horses react quickly - it's built into them. 

You both have some wonderful points - I might add that I find my horse teaches me a lot when I listen. That doesn't mean I let him be the boss; however, I do believe that riding is a partnership between the rider and the horse.


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## Cherie

But, in #4 you are riding toward the object -- not away from it. You speed up to get him 'busy' and to get his mind back to you. Your object is not let the horse spin around and bolt the opposite direction. 

As soon as you pass the object, you turn him around (toward the object) and go back and forth like this until the horse decides to just quietly walk by without giving the object a second glance. 

It Works!! You do this every time a spooky, silly, booger hunting horse acts afraid of something and very soon you have a horse that does not booger at anything. I've done over and over -- with literally dozens of horses that started out VERY spooky. I've done it with totally goofy Arabians and showed one really spooky one to a US National Top Ten in trail where we had to walk past a fresh cow hide they got from a local slaughter house. He totally respected my leg and kept that ear opposite the hide back on me. We were one of the few entries at the Arabian Nationals that year that did not 'blow out' and run sideways away from the bloody hide.

Some of the horses I worked with to get their CLEET certification started out very spooky and they literally became 'bomb-proof Police horses. 

I've tried many different ways to go about getting a quiet horse that was not fearful, and this is the way that has worked best -- not on 1 or 2 horses but on a lot of them. It has worked extremely well on horses that I have trained and also been very successful when I have worked with people riding their own horses. Are there other ways to get a really 'solid' trail horse that does not spook. I'm sure there are. There is never just one way to do anything. But, this one has worked very well for me.


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## Pat Miran

Cherie - Thanks for the explanation of your #4 - that makes a lot more sense to me. I would say that may not be for every rider, as some horses being forced to go fast towards a fearful object may rear, but certainly going back and forth past the object makes a lot of sense.


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## Cherie

Pat -- actually, they are less apt to rear. A horse rears when you let them stall out and slow down. Moving forward faster keeps all of their feet on the ground. When they are moving forward, they just cannot rear.

We find that rearing is a much bigger problem when people let the horse stop and then argue with it about letting it turn around and leave the scary place. People that are as fearful as the horse, usually tighten up, try to 'hold' the horse from turning, try to get the horse closer so he can look at the scary thing and, in reality, set the horse up for spinning around or rearing and then getting more fearful. 

Letting a horse stop and look just sets them up for more stopping and looking and more fear reactions. Keeping the horse 'responsive' and busy just does not give the horse time to be reactive. It just works so well to keep them busy and moving.

I hope this clears up the confusion. I could have been a little more articulate.


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## thesilverspear

Tianimalz said:


> I cannot help it makes me frown a bit that most horses don't get to show their personality, instead it's trained out of them. Most are told that at all times under saddle they have to be quiet with their heads down and done exactly what their told and are not allowed to use their intelligence to question it. Like I've said, it shines to me more of ownership, than the friendship I've seen be allowed to shine in some horses when given a chance.
> 
> Like I've said, their is a difference between a good horse who does whet they're told, and one that doesn't ever have a chance to ask differently.
> 
> But that is my opinion, I can hardly change it, and it's only worth as much credit to someone else as other people are willing to give it :wink:


When I ask for a half-pass at X when dressaging around the arena, it means do it NOW. If you had a horse who was allowed to "question" every movement, you'd have a pretty lousy dressage horse. Same goes for trail rides. When I ask for a rein-back randomly while headed home on the trail, I don't give a hoot if she'd rather keep going forward, towards home. Halt and back-up NOW mean just that. I don't call that a dead horse who's had her personality trained out of her, I call it a trained horse who knows her job. In spite of all of that, and all that dressage training in pure, blind obedience, she is still very alert and aware on the trail, but not balky or spooky, and pretty handy at keeping you and her out of trouble. 

Obviously you can train your horse however you want but characterising all of these horses who have been trained to be obedient, as Cherie described, as not being "allowed to show their personality" is, quite frankly, making a huge assumption.


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## churumbeque

Cherie said:


> Thank you Wild Spot and Sahara and the others that actually understand and have ridden a good trail horse or a good ranch horse. A good well-trained saddle horse is not a 'dead-head'. I hate dead-heads -- except that I keep a couple around that I can put total dummies on and I know they will baby-sit even the dumbest rider that is doing everything wrong despite three people telling them not to.
> 
> Don't tell me that a horse is a dead-head just because he does not give you resistance and have his own agenda. Don't tell me a horse that you can run out after a steer that needs doctoring and rope and doctor him all by yourself (with the help of your horse, of course), is a dead-head. Don't tell me that a horse that carries a complete stranger up above timber-line in a place so steep and rough that a person would be hard-put to walk, is a dead-head. You get in places like that, you don't need a horse that wants to stop and sniff around or turn around to look or stuff.
> 
> I think that the people that actually think a horse loses its personality and its 'trained out of them' {choke} have just never ridden a good, well-mannered trail horse or a good ranch horse in their entire lives. How in the world can resistance and arguing be mistaken for personality?
> 
> I have never seen a well-trained trail horse or ranch horse stumble over a snake or anything else. But I can tell you that when I have a well-trained horse stop dead in his tracks, I know there is a real serious concern and I am smart enough to not force him forward. I KNOW there is something there. I never have to wonder if he is just looking or sniffing or if there is really a problem.
> 
> I had that exact thing happen about 5 years ago. I had a really solid ranch horse bow up his neck, stop and back up a step. I told my husband, who behind me, to help me see what was wrong because I knew something was wrong. About that time a Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.
> 
> So no! A well-broke horse does not lose its personality or character. I just know there are an awful lot of people that have never ridden one.


 Ok so thyen what happened. Do you run like hell or back up slowly hoping the snake doesn't notice you?


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## Equilove

> If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored.




This! Times 10! I hate being told to "Let him look at it, let him see it's okay". I've always thought of it as counterproductive. You've given me a new way to explain to people why I don't let my horse stop and look at everything. Great post!


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## Cherie

> Ok so thyen what happened. Do you run like hell or back up slowly hoping the snake doesn't notice you?


I backed him up another 5 or 6 steps. I sure did not let him put is nose down to 'check it out'. 

I have never had a horse snake bitten despite living all my life where Rattlesnakes and Copperheads are plentiful. I have had several friends that have had horses bitten by Rattlesnakes and 100% of them were bitten on the nose. Curiosity got them.


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## Pat Miran

> actually, they are less apt to rear. A horse rears when you let them stall out and slow down. Moving forward faster keeps all of their feet on the ground. When they are moving forward, they just cannot rear.
> 
> Of course moving forward will prevent the horse from rearing; however, we are talking about spooking here. My experience has been that riding is an adventure that at times isn't predictable. A horse is an animal that has reactions to the living environment and at times needs to stop and gather themselves at other times needs to straighten up and move forward.
> 
> In the end, its a judgement call for the rider. When you finally saw the snake you agreed with your horse. When you tell your horse to move forward past something spooky, your horse agrees with you out of trust. Trust between the horse and rider takes time in the saddle to build. Everyday you ride that trust is built or broken. I feel there is more than one way to accomplish that bond between horse and rider. There are different training techniques because there are so many different types of horses and riders out there.
> 
> For me, I'm not running towards a spooky thing on my horse - if it works for you great. Happy riding!


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## kathyk

very interesting thread...I am a new owner of an appendix AQHA and recently came off in a 'spook/spin'...a wire on the ground was the culprit. My mare also refuses to cross water, even a rivlet 6 inches wide..she is a city girl and likes to keep her feet dry. Recognizing that I did not have the knowledge to fix this, I put her into 30 days of training with a good trainer. I had the chance to watch her work with my mare on a long trail ride and it was amazing that the trainer was able to get her to walk (not jump) across several puddles and wet areas...not to say there was not an argument however. I bought the mare as a trail horse, and she was advertised as such...but I can't imagine the trails she was ridden on, this girl is worried about lots of stuff. I am hoping my trainer can do some more magic with her. This tread is very helpful and I will share it with her.


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## churumbeque

Cherie, I pretty much agree with everything you said and can see how confidence effects a horses behavior. I sent you a PM with your thoughts on something


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## Coyote

I think this is a great topic, and I agree that "stopping for a look" can cause more problems than it solves. 

I personally prefer a mix-match method of not allowing the horse to spook in the first place by keeping his attention on me and his job. Then also some small desensitizing to common objects that are "scary" to reinforce a spook-in-place. 

The reason behind that is simple. Sometimes you can feel that a spook is going to happen, you notice the signs of it coming and can take action to prevent it. Like riding on past it then back and forth until it is no longer a big deal. 

But in the same notion, some spooks you never catch on too before they happen. Life is full of surprises and no matter how much the horse trusts you and follows you as a leader, I don't think we can override natural instincts. Only lessen them to manageable levels. That is why I also do some desensitization for spooking in place. If the horse is startled to the point of spooking before you can manage to take control -- like deer coming over a hedge at you, or a boar charging out of the underbrush-- the horse will be more likely to spook in place instead of bolt off with/without you. Then once the rider realizes what is happening, they can take control to overcome the fear and "get over it."


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## Darrin

They key, as Coyote said, is to watch your horse very closely. You need to distract them (I do this by putting a heel in their side and asking them to move forward) the instant they start showing signs of looking cross eyed at an object. Most the times this distracts them long enough to get past whatever they don't like.

For those times it doesn't work. I hop out of the saddle, lead them back and forth until(generally 4-10 reps) they relax. At that point I jump back in the saddle on the side we originally approached from then ride back and forth a couple of times. Your horse will gain trust in your judgement doing this and soon you'll find yourself no longer having to jump out of the saddle, they'll just go by when you ask them to. I've been told by some posters I'm teaching them bad habits by jumping out of the saddle but in truth, that hasn't happened so I don't know what those people are talking about.


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## storrum

Very interesting topic !
I do not do trailrides but I show f.e. trail.
Do you have tips what to do when a horse is afraid for the trail bridge or gate? Usualy you have to walk/jog straight up to them...
There are so many different styles of bridges that you can not practice them all before you go to the show


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## Cherie

Yes, we too, have shown in many trail classes. We have shown many Quarter Horses to year-end and various Association High Point awards and have won many 'in hand' high point awards at Foundation Shows. I also showed an Arabian stallion to several Championships and to a US National Top Ten award when Arabian Trail where the shows were pretty much a 'spook' class with many really bazaar obstacles that you could not train for. 

The Public Park and campground we now take out commercial trail rides at has a number of narrow bridges that are 5 feet wide and up to 150 feet long going over canyons. It never takes more than a minute or two to get a new horse to go over any of these bridges with no horse going in front of them. We do nearly all of our training with only the one horse present unless a problem is encountered. 

We train them all the same, whether they are to be shown, trail ridden in places they have never been or trained for Police work. When we get them 'really broke', we expect them to go everywhere we point their heads. 

We get a really solid 'forward on demand' instilled in them. We get them where they stay between the rider's legs and between the reins. This means there is little or no spinning around or dodging sideways until we encounter something really different. It means that the horse has learned to respect the rider's leg when they 'push' against it, a little 'bump' from the leg straightens them right back up. It means they do not 'stall out' or try to 'duck around'.

We start out with approaching little things that we know the horse would rather not pass (not go across or over at first). I know where there are several blackened tree stumps, big rocks, dead fall trees, old metal culverts that have been exposed, signs and billboards, etc.

I try to ride right past them knowing that the horse wants do something between run sideways to bow up and spin around or dance around as far away as possible. The horse usually doesn't, but I can tell he would like to. He is not relaxed or happy about going by. I don't really push one to pass close by at first. I just go past as close as I can without letting him stop. Just as soon as he passes the booger, I turn him back sharply toward it and pass it again only it will be on the other side of him.

I ride him back and forth as many times as it takes for him to drop his head and walk by without making me touch a rein or put a leg into him. It may take 5 minutes and it may take 2 hours. It takes as long as it takes and he gets no relief until he quietly walks right on by. I believe it is this routine that teaches a horse to ignore later boogers. While you cannot directly punish a horse for spooking without having a negative effect on training, you can make one pay a very high price for it. More importantly you can teach a horse that all pressure will be taken off when he trusts you and goes where you point his head. 

Many people trail ride and they are so afraid a horse will spook at something that they sort of get past it (if they get past it at all) and the last thing they want to do is to go back and forth and go past it 40 more times. If you want a horse that ignores everything but you, you may have to do this to become the most important influence in his life and to have his complete confidence in your leadership. 

I cannot tell you exactly why this works as well as it does to make a horse give up spooking, but I can tell you that just about all of them do.


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## AllThePrettyHorses

Wow. Going back and forth by a scary object actually works, on every horse I've tried it on so far. Last night my horse was looking at the row of signs my mom has in the ditch, and I walked her back and forth by it a dozen times, and by the end, I was weaving her in and out of them without a moment's hesitation.

Cherie, how do you teach a horse to go through water? I mean, how exactly do you teach the horse to go wherever you point its head without question? I'm asking this because I was on our older pony a few days ago, and we came across a little creek. She didn't want to go across but I knew she's crossed water before and so didn't want to let her win. She resisted for a few seconds but eventually went through pretty easy. On my riding horse, she has a history of aversion to water (even though I KNOW she has crossed it when she was being broke), and I know she would put up way bigger of a fight/refusal than the pony. Not rearing or bucking or anything, just stubborn and refuses, and she puts up a long, long argument. I know she shouldn't argue me on anything, but how do I teach her not to?


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## Courtney

I’m currently re-training an ex-harness racer. She is 16 years old and extremely mild-mannered. Not much scares her, but she is extremely interested in everything around her. She likes to look and for now, I let her. If I’m in the round pen and she feels the need to stop and look at something weird, like a leaf or a fence pole, I let her. But the catch is: I count to 30 and then we move on. We move on my terms. If she still needs to look a second time, I make her circle and then we stop for the count of 30. She gets two times to look at anything, and then we move on. Most times, she only needs the first look and then she never looks at the object again. She goes where I want, she does what I ask… but sometimes, her curious nature needs to be indulged. At the point in time, she’s beginning to understand that playtime ends when the halter goes on. If I’m on her back, she’s all business. Even though she’s green as they come, she never puts a foot wrong. She’s definitely one of those rare horses that look out for their rider and once she’s completely sure what I’ve asked of her, she commits it to memory. She’ll make a wonderful trail horse someday, just because she is naturally calm and completely willing to go along with whatever her handler asks. 

I guess I fall in between the perspectives. I like to let a horse look, but at the same time, I’m not going to let them look forever. She looks on my terms and goes when I ask. I give her the change to look if she needs to, but she gets 60 seconds TOPS. She will go wherever I point her and she will not fuss about it, but at the same time, she is not a dead head. She has a lot of spunk for an old girl, but enough sense to keep it under wraps while she’s working.


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## hillree

Cherie, I have a question. How should I handle it when my mare stops dead and refuses to go forward? Last time she did it, I just kept kicking her for a LONG time until she took a few steps, and then I immediately moved her into a faster pace. It made me pretty nervous when she did this, just because she's a really sensitive girl and I hardly ever have to use more than a little leg with her, so full-out kicking her was a bit of a jump. I made sure to grab a handful of mane in case she reared or did something else.

Thanks for any advice! I'm really hoping in time I can transform her into a fearless trail beast!


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## Jessabel

Wow. Awesome post, Cherie.  Everything you said makes so much sense. You've inspired me to get back on my horses and start riding again. They're not bad, I just lack the motivation. Heh... 

Does that same method work with herd-bound horses? Getting them to focus solely on the rider, I mean. My one horse is fine by himself, but my draft horse goes crazy when I take his buddy away. The weird thing is, he never had that problem when we boarded at a stable. I used to take him on the trails alone and he was perfect. 

But since we moved home and it's just the two of them (plus a friend's horse, but she should be leaving soon), he's inconsolable when I take Victor away. I'm just wondering if I can get him to listen to me and not worry about the other horse.


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## HeatherinCali

Hello Cherie,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. My focus is to create a trail horse like you describe. Can you recommend a book(s) or web site that teaches the techniques you use in your training? I'm especially interested in instilling confidence in my horse, as well as myself, as the rider. 

Sorry if you have already answered this in a previous thread.

Thanks!


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## Erfellie

Thank you for all the fantastic information


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## danastark

A great trail horse is worth it's weight in gold! A good rider is too  My gelding is generally great about going through, past just about anything so when he does stop and snort, I start looking. He's become our rattlesnake spotter in the last year! Your method does make a lot of sense, Cherie


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## churumbeque

HeatherinCali said:


> Hello Cherie,
> 
> I have been reading this thread with great interest. My focus is to create a trail horse like you describe. Can you recommend a book(s) or web site that teaches the techniques you use in your training? I'm especially interested in instilling confidence in my horse, as well as myself, as the rider.
> 
> Sorry if you have already answered this in a previous thread.
> 
> Thanks!


 I went to a Ken Mcnabb trail clinic and learned a tremendous amount with some of these same principles.


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## SunnyGlen

Key point here is that the respect for rider leadership MUST be established before going out where the fear level is raised. If the horse questions your leadership in peaceful familiar surroundings, that lack of respect will be escalated "out there"! To be safe, develop that responsiveness and respect at home, then begin working past the boundaries of the horse's comfort zone. I love Cherie's post!! right on! We have to remember that a horse acts badly with his human either through disrespect or fear and it is our job to discern which is taking place. I believe Cherie is saying that if the horse has a proper respect for us as leaders, that respect will translate into trust and the fear factor will be put into place under that trust. The horse may be afraid but because he respects and trusts our judgement he will be more willing to "do it" afraid. Think of the herds in the wild: they follow the lead brood mare and don't even hesitate about following her because to leave the herd would put their lives in danger.


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## SunnyGlen

Serendipitous: In response to your post about your horse and the barbed wire...this is a case of knowing your horse. We had a BLM mustang my daughter rode and he did the same thing one day on the trail but it was so out of character for him that my daughter did examine the trail ahead and there was a rattler coiled up just a few yards ahead on the side of the trail. This mustang had lived in the wild for two years of his life and knew trails so it was, this day, a case of mutual trust. He warned the rest of the riders of the danger ahead and they went on and had a great ride. So knowing your horse is a big part of it. We had an Arabian who was the Sunday ride; he was so watchful, he'd step carefully over a dark line in the path and we could drop the reins on him and just trust him for a safe ride. He was an awesome trail horse! He was watchful and careful where his feet went but never spooky or balky. He loved to get out. Those are the true pleasure horses who take care of their riders... then there are others .... lol... who make us work for it.


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## dazey

look on Amazon for a handbook named Basic Training for a Safe Trail Horse. It costs $10 or less and show how to use patience rather than fear factors to teach horses. It works!


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## jannette

cherie, luv'd your post!!!! we do alot of trail riding and ive seen people let their horses pick the pase and check out everything, i just pass them, but have noticed they r the ones that need help x-ing any and all water, slash piles ect...i guess i didnt realize my mare and i blow by it cuz im not scared of it so eather should she be  if she hesitates i just move her forward i guess i never thought to much about it or why...i can see it now, your so write!!!


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## jannette

SunnyGlen said:


> Key point here is that the respect for rider leadership MUST be established before going out where the fear level is raised. If the horse questions your leadership in peaceful familiar surroundings, that lack of respect will be escalated "out there"! To be safe, develop that responsiveness and respect at home, then begin working past the boundaries of the horse's comfort zone. I love Cherie's post!! right on! We have to remember that a horse acts badly with his human either through disrespect or fear and it is our job to discern which is taking place. I believe Cherie is saying that if the horse has a proper respect for us as leaders, that respect will translate into trust and the fear factor will be put into place under that trust. The horse may be afraid but because he respects and trusts our judgement he will be more willing to "do it" afraid. Think of the herds in the wild: they follow the lead brood mare and don't even hesitate about following her because to leave the herd would put their lives in danger.


 

i was told once and it has just stuck with me "you dont let your car make decissions on were u r going,so dont let your horse, keep in the drivers seat"...i think of that when my mare thinks she'd like to make her own decissoins, when her and i first started out i wasnt so good at driving , but now after time she trusts me and me her, makes a world of differance


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## smithjojo

Thanks so much! 
I will be doing this with Bliss very soon!
really great job...!!!


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## Horsecrazy4ever

Thanks! It was great =)


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## AllThePrettyHorses

Cherie,

I really want to thank you. Almost since I got my horse two years ago, I have had confidence issues while riding her. It's been an ongoing struggle, one I've thought about giving up the more we go along, and I almost did give up this summer and sell. It may not have been a necessarily bad thing to "give up", as she is a lot of horse and I have had a lot of grief over her in the past years, but I felt like if I gave up with her, a horse without vices, honest, willing, and brave even if she is a bit hotter, I'd be giving up on myself and any ability I have to ride and work with horses.

And then you posted this, and I have read it more times than I can count. The combination of this and the skills my new trainer is giving me gave me the confidence to say: "Ok, I think I can start riding her again." 

I've been taking her out on the trail every day I can. She is not perfect, a lot of stuff has to do with her 'new-ness' to it, but even when things aren't going exactly as I would like or had planned, I still find success in my rides. Not because I need the tips you posted to handle her, but because the tips you posted give me the confidence to be able to _honestly_ tell myself: "It's alright, I know what I'm doing. I can handle this."

So I just wanted to thank you, again and again. Thank you! I know I'm not miraculously cured of my unconfidence; I am likely going to have some days where I slip back to my old thinking, but so far, I have met nothing but success and I'd like to say that at least part of it is your doing.

-C.P.


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## Juniper

Two things you said Cherie were super helpful to me. The one about working the horse in tough terrain. I sort of assumed there was not much I could do on our narrow wooded trails when my horse gets spooky and his mind is anywhere but on me. I rode him the other day, after much time off, and he is generally a bit spooky anyway, plus it was a cold day. As soon as I felt him the littlest bit tense up, off into the woods we went. I mean scrambling up steep, down steep, with lots of tangled brush and trees. Circled anything I could find. Instead of thinking I needed a smooth open road to work on I relished the rougher terrain. Second helpful part was riding in my mind, way past where I was actually going. Kept us more forward for sure. You know, I could tell my horse was enjoying the ride and was very relaxed and so was I. I think the best trail ride we have had yet.
Thanks for your well written, informative, detailed post!


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## AmyLynnFox

I am new to the forum and I trail ride only. I am back into horses after a break with marriage and kids, life, etc... This has been some of the best advice I've heard in a long time, very much common sense. Thank you for reminding me how things are supposed to be!


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## MisSaint

Thank you so much!! This post has been extremely helpful in building my confidence as a rider. I just purchased my very first horse, an 8 year old TB. He is an ex race horse; however, for the last 2 years has been an english/hunter lesson horse. I actually have been riding him as my lesson horse for the past year and a half. Now that he is mine, I would like to start going on trail rides with him; however, I have found that he is a big chicken and spooks at random things (also has never been taken out of the property). I am hesitant to actually ride him out around the neighborhood and have only taken him on lead walks after our work outs, or lessons. 
The other day started really well, we walked half way around the stables and into an open field. Houdini noticed 2 other horses being walked and after getting his attention back on me, we started walking back. The other horses began to follow and I think the sound of them following got Houdini nervous. He started slightly whining and I ended up circling him around me. Since he is my first horse, I'm not exactly sure what I should when he acts like this. I first just made him stop circling me, and walked him to the side where there was grass and such. It seemed to work and calmed him down and got his mind off of them.
I really would like to just try riding him around the neighborhood, I feel I should be able to control him better riding him as long as I'm confident enough. Or should I keep walking him to get him used to it? From Cherie's post it seems that I should just take him out as long as I remain in control. Any suggestions?
Thank you!


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## Rachel7861

Cherie said:


> Thanks folks.
> 
> For us, it is just so simple. We USE our horses. We think they should be like a truck -- You turn the key and it should start and go. We expect our horses to go anywhere we point their heads --- and they DO.
> 
> The other side of that coin is ---- We are fair and do not ask a horse to do anything that we think is unreasonable and that the horse is not ready and able to do. Then, we ask and it just happens.
> 
> It is just like our trailer loading and standing tied. Every horse on the place just jumps into a trailer the instant you point its head at one. They stand tied all day if that is what you want. After joining a forum, I had to start analyzing exactly what we do. We just ask and it happens. I think the biggest single thing is that we expect compete obedience from day one, so our horses just never think about arguing about anything.


I need to know how you get a horse to tie! Please!


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## Rachel7861

MisSaint said:


> Thank you so much!! This post has been extremely helpful in building my confidence as a rider. I just purchased my very first horse, an 8 year old TB. He is an ex race horse; however, for the last 2 years has been an english/hunter lesson horse. I actually have been riding him as my lesson horse for the past year and a half. Now that he is mine, I would like to start going on trail rides with him; however, I have found that he is a big chicken and spooks at random things (also has never been taken out of the property). I am hesitant to actually ride him out around the neighborhood and have only taken him on lead walks after our work outs, or lessons.
> The other day started really well, we walked half way around the stables and into an open field. Houdini noticed 2 other horses being walked and after getting his attention back on me, we started walking back. The other horses began to follow and I think the sound of them following got Houdini nervous. He started slightly whining and I ended up circling him around me. Since he is my first horse, I'm not exactly sure what I should when he acts like this. I first just made him stop circling me, and walked him to the side where there was grass and such. It seemed to work and calmed him down and got his mind off of them.
> I really would like to just try riding him around the neighborhood, I feel I should be able to control him better riding him as long as I'm confident enough. Or should I keep walking him to get him used to it? From Cherie's post it seems that I should just take him out as long as I remain in control. Any suggestions?
> Thank you!


I had a nervous horse too and i was thinking i should just find everything i could to get him used to scarey things. But i read articles about eventing and they ALL say there is nothing better than getting your horse OFF or OUT of the property. That's the real deal and you know what? they're so right. It's life outside the farm and it doesn't have to freak them out. I also used what Cherie suggested as far as leg yielding them past things they're scared of to get their minds on something else. And i've learned sniffing things gets you into trouble. a mare I had was allowed to do that and every single time we passed a boulder she would stop asap even at a canter. It caused me on my gelding to fall off as i was behind the mare when she decided to hit the brakes. Not smart and not safe.


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## arwen311

I'm so glad I found this post, I have been riding a horse that has been spooking a lot, & this gives me some ideas on how to handle it. He is a retired standardbred harness racer, & I'm sort of retraining him to ride. I would love to get him on trails, but lately he's been spooking at everything. He does the spin & bolt thing, & I'm really quite scared of falling off, I haven't fallen off In a long time. I think partly it's because he's basically stuck In his stall until I come ride him ( he's not mine), & has forgotten what the outside world is like. He was a racehorse, so it's not like he hasn't been around a lot of different things. But I'm thinking part of it is me, I'm not always confident enough, & his spooking makes me nervous, I sometimes lose the reins when he spins so quickly, so that doesn't help. I have try & work on that & try some of Cherie's techniques, I don't want to get so scared that I can't ride him! The strange thing too is that he trips a lot when I'm riding, but every time he spooks, his footing is just fine! So far at least, I'd hate for him to trip while he's bolting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald

I enjoyed reading this. You've given me some things to think about, so thank you. 

Incidentally, the first girl I had a crush on when I was 12 or 13 was named Cherie.


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## DragonflyStables

Well said!


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## furbabymum

Great to know. I've been letting them stop and sniff things. Bad bad me!


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## grayshell38

Excellant post! This is very much the thought of my trainer. They can think something is scary, but I am the boss and the boss says move on anyway. Also, he never "trailer trains" a horse. He teaches solid leading skills. If he wants to lead a horse into a hole in the ground to China, they will follow, because they are solid in their leading.


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## Cherie

Your trainer is right. We also never teach loading as such. They are all trained to lead -- period. If we want them to step into a tiny dark trailer, they don't hesitate. When the rider or handler says "Go forward!" it means go forward right now. When a horse has been trained to do whatever the rider / handler says, there just are NO problems. Obedience is not optional at our house. Respect is not optional -- ever!


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## tbrantley

I know that this is an old post but agree that if your horse trust you he will go where you put him know matter how scared he may be. 

To prove my point I have a nine year old TWH that I have had since before he turned two years old. I broke him myself and have spend many hours on him and we have covered many miles of trails. A couple of summers ago I was riding in the Tenn. mountains with a group of women. 

I usually take the lead because my horse is always find with being up front and doesn't usually shy from anything. While we where riding through this wooded area on the back side of camp. My horse started snorting loud and his head and ears where up and he stiffen up. My friends horses refused to move, several where rearing up and turning around and running the other way. My horse hesitated and I told him to go on that it will be alright and touched him w/ my spurs. He went on snorting the whole time, ears up very tense. I wasn't going to let him get by with acting up and we went passed what ever it was that was upsetting him and the other horses. I was proud of myself for not letting him get by with it.

When I got to camp with the others, everyone asked did I see that black bear? No, I didn't. I was so determine that I was going to make my horse do what I said that I didn't see the bear. My horse was trying to warn me but I didn't listen. I am lucky that the situation didn't turn out different but I learned a lesson. Yes, my horse trust me but I need to trust him too.


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## Nutshell

I don't agree....my horse has never disrespected me and I have done a lot of parelli training with him. When I take him out on the trails and he sees something he is unsure of, I walk him to it and let him know that it's not going to hurt him. This is how you teach them to not be afraid of it. Think about it if you make your horse run away from whatever he is afraid of when it comes down to a bad situation where he sees something and you don't his natural instinct is going to be to run and if your not ready for it you or someone with you can get hurt. I always have shown my horses it's ok to check out what he is afraid of that way the next time he sees it, he wont get spooked. Now my horses trust me to the point that if they do see something they are unsure of they stop and turn there head back to me and put their nose on my foot as if they are asking me "is it ok" and I pet them say it's alright and they then walk on. It's better for your horse to let you show them something is ok then to make them run from it. They will gain your trust way better. Think of it as your kid, if you child is a afraid of something are you going to tell him or her to run? Or show them that it's ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pintophile

Nutshell said:


> I don't agree....my horse has never disrespected me and I have done a lot of parelli training with him. When I take him out on the trails and he sees something he is unsure of, I walk him to it and let him know that it's not going to hurt him. This is how you teach them to not be afraid of it. Think about it if you make your horse run away from whatever he is afraid of when it comes down to a bad situation where he sees something and you don't his natural instinct is going to be to run and if your not ready for it you or someone with you can get hurt. I always have shown my horses it's ok to check out what he is afraid of that way the next time he sees it, he wont get spooked. Now my horses trust me to the point that if they do see something they are unsure of they stop and turn there head back to me and put their nose on my foot as if they are asking me "is it ok" and I pet them say it's alright and they then walk on. It's better for your horse to let you show them something is ok then to make them run from it. They will gain your trust way better. Think of it as your kid, if you child is a afraid of something are you going to tell him or her to run? Or show them that it's ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't see once in any of her posts where Cherie told us to make our horse run away from what it's scared of. If you are ok with allowing your horse to stop and look all the time, that's up to you. Cherie was just giving us another way, to teach our horses to go by whatever they're scared of without stopping or batting an eye.


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## Nutshell

4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. 

Right here....it says to ride fast which teaches them to be afraid the next time he sees that object, which leads them to run. And as far as taking him in the roughest footing you can find, ill count on a broken leg. This to me seems assinine. But that is my personal opinion and how I was taught by many different trainers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pintophile

Nutshell said:


> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find.
> 
> Right here....it says to ride fast which teaches them to be afraid the next time he sees that object, which leads them to run. And as far as taking him in the roughest footing you can find, ill count on a broken leg. This to me seems assinine. But that is my personal opinion and how I was taught by many different trainers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I interpreted #4 as when a horse starts to get anxious and "sull up", not as it being afraid of any particular object. We've all been on the horses that, the farther away from home you get, the more and more tense and anxious and fearful they start to become - just at the situation in general and being taken away from home and its buddies, not because one particular thing is scary. This is when riding harder and faster really helps, as it gets the horses mind on moving forwards and back onto you. I utilize rough footing when a horse is being a real fool, but you're right, I am more careful so that it doesn't hurt itself.


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## crisslyon

I love this post. Very informative and IMOP You are absolutely 100% correct. 

I expect obedience from my horses, dogs, and kids. I think what you said about confidence in the rider sums up most problems. Someone has to be the leader of the pack/herd/family and if you let the horse/dog/kid choose they are probably going to choose them, they always think their smarter. 

Thank you for the post!


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## mildot

Nutshell said:


> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find.
> 
> Right here....it says to ride fast which teaches them to be afraid the next time he sees that object, which leads them to run. And as far as taking him in the roughest footing you can find, ill count on a broken leg. This to me seems assinine. But that is my personal opinion and how I was taught by many different trainers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Ride hard and fast" is a figure of speech.

It means demand and obtain immediate obedience to go forward into and past what the horse fears. Thereby showing him that there is nothing to fear if he trusts you the leader.

When my horse shows signs of fear or alarm on the trail I don't get off to play carrot stick games. I demand a forward response towards what worries her and I do not stop until I get it. 

The first time we encountered dogs on the trail she looked at them for about as long as it took me to drive her forward INTO the dogs. Now she knows that I am to be trusted around dogs and that dogs are not to be feared unless I say so.


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## mildot

Nutshell said:


> Now my horses trust me to the point that if they do see something they are unsure of they stop and turn there head back to me and put their nose on my foot as if they are asking me "is it ok" and I pet them say it's alright and they then walk on.


Some of us can't afford to have horses that stop at every worrisome thing they see.

If all you ever do is mosey on at a leisurely walk, sure. But if you are moving at any speed at all, particularly if you are jumping cross country, stopping is a cardinal sin and a huge safety issue.

I want my horse to be brave, ignore what worries her, and trust me and my commands. Not ask if it's OK to take another step every time something new shows up.


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## Cherie

Yup!!

Same is true on the ranch. If I am running across rough pastures, crossing steep gullies and crossing the water in the bottom of them so that I can 'head' a bunch of cattle trying to get to the brush or trees, I am not going to pet and cajole my horse to go where I want him to. He is going to go because that is where I pointed his nose and asked for 'forward'.

Stopping and / or looking is NEVER an option for me. This is the riding and training style that I use for ranch horses, personal trail horses and for Police Horses. It is sure what I would also want for a cross-country horse. Stopping and checking out a solid fence while I was perched up there in a forward position is not what I would call 'acceptable'.

Horses go into smoke and riots, over huge fences they cannot see over, and into fast flowing water they cannot see the bottom of because they are ---

1) COMPLETELY OBEDIENT

2) COMPLETELY TRUSTING

This has always been our goal and it works very well. These horses are not being treated 'mean' or are 'mindless robots'. The people that think they are have just never ridden one. With our goal of complete obedience and complete trust, we get a horse that has 'no worries'. He KNOWS we will take care of everything. Nervous, un-confident, spooky, 'refusing' horses are most of all 'worried'. As a prey animal, they are supposed to be worried about them and the horses behind them when they are the leader. When you are the right kind of leader, they are not worried about anything. They are like the foal that blindly follows its mother into the swift river. The horses at the back of the herd are not worried about anything. They are following their trusted lead-horse.

I did not ride very many trail horses in groups of people until I figured out that the horse in the lead acts much differently that when that same horse is in the middle or back of the bunch. I have commercial trail horses now that are two different horses. They ride one way at the front of the pack and completely different in the middle or back. 

This is why we train trail horses out by themselves. We want them to learn to trust their rider rather than the horse in front of them. It is often times more difficult to train a horse that has followed on a trail than one that has never been on a trail and is taken out by himself from day one.

The trick is learning to be that kind of leader.


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## mildot

Cherie said:


> This is why we train trail horses out by themselves. We want them to learn to trust their rider rather than the horse in front of them. It is often times more difficult to train a horse that has followed on a trail than one that has never been on a trail and is taken out by himself from day one.


Amen.

That's why, as soon as I learned the trail layout at the barn where I board, I started taking Calypso out by myself instead of always going with someone. And even when we go with others, I take turns leading so that Calypso doesn't freak out when she finds herself with no rump to follow. I also avoid riding nose to tail unless the trail demands so. As soon as we break out into a field or a pasture, we move away from others sideways and forward.


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## mildot

Cherie said:


> Yup!!
> 
> Same is true on the ranch. If I am running across rough pastures, crossing steep gullies and crossing the water in the bottom of them so that I can 'head' a bunch of cattle trying to get to the brush or trees, I am not going to pet and cajole my horse to go where I want him to. He is going to go because that is where I pointed his nose and asked for 'forward'.


If you think about it, whether ridden english or western, a working horse is a working horse. It doesn't matter if it's a ranch horse or a fox hunter. Their job is to go where the rider says go, when the rider says go, and as fast as the rider wants. If something needs to be run over, jumped over, or ridden through, that's what it does.


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## Northern

One of Cherie's posts describes step-by-step how she trains the "obedience & trust" into a horse, & that I find to be just "taking the time it takes" gradual development of the horse's trust by inching closer over time to the object (she said it can take 2 hours of going back & forth), so this is same as approach of the "relationship" folks. Cherie also said that she'll listen to her horse if it refuses to proceed on trail, giving snake experience as an example, so this is also same as approach of the "relationship" folks.

The bottom line is trust in the leader, & it's really not a matter of _training_ trust into a horse; trust is earned, by showing consistently that one is trust_worthy_. 

How does the alpha get that unquestioning, instant obedience? By being the best leader/making the best decisions. 

Humans do well to remember that horses are aware of dangers that we aren't, "out there"; thus we are handicapped in our judgement & must listen to our horses.


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## candandy49

Seventeen years ago when I found my then 8 year old QH mare, she is now 24 years old, I promised her verbally that I'd never ask her to doing anything to cause her harm. There had been a few times I nearly pushed that promise to it's limit. When we first became each others our first outings were on our country roads where we live. She tested me twice by spooking at nothing more than large rocks on the roadside. I just ignored the spooking and rode on as if nothing happened. After the second spook she never did it again at anything. That is the gospel truth. However, she never lost her spirit and was always ready for our next adventure with ears perked forward. When she felt good she would literally "ask" me to let her have a short lope by giving a small buck that never unseated me. I didn't want to lose that essence of her personality so I did let her go at a lope for a short distance. She always came back to me with no problem when I took her back to a walk.

Building a bond and trust with our horse is the most rewarding experience ever. Before I ever rode her we spent a lot of time on ground work and back to Basics 101.


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## eliduc

Great post. One of the worst times I ever got bucked off was when a feed sack blew under the legs of a green horse I was riding. Now I desensitize my horses with a sack tied to bailing twine. It might not desensitize the horse to everything but if the horse does spook he will probably not spook as bad. Everybody does things a little different and it doesn't mean that what someone else does is wrong. What ever works. People are often too rigid in their ways and they lose out. For the most part if you have control of your horse's nose you have control of his mind. Ok. So which is it 35 or 49 years?


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## LValentina

Amazing post, it definitely reaffirmed that you need to be confident, for your horse to be confident. Something that I tend to forget with a particular horse I ride.

Not to hijack but my particular problem with him is gates... I've been trying to work on opening/closing metal swing gates while on him and he is just so spooky and prancy when it comes to the gate coming anywhere near him that I can barely even get him squared up beside it. (Even when I'm on the ground opening and closing gates and he's beside me) So, this may be a different type of situation, but I was wondering if Cherie's advice holds that I shouldn't let him really think about it as much, maybe it's my own fears about his spookiness? I don't know ... Any advice to get him over this particular fear?


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## candandy49

eliduc said:


> Great post. One of the worst times I ever got bucked off was when a feed sack blew under the legs of a green horse I was riding. Now I desensitize my horses with a sack tied to bailing twine. It might not desensitize the horse to everything but if the horse does spook he will probably not spook as bad. Everybody does things a little different and it doesn't mean that what someone else does is wrong. What ever works. People are often too rigid in their ways and they lose out. For the most part if you have control of your horse's nose you have control of his mind. Ok. So which is it 35 or 49 years?


@eliduc: Doing the math my QH Mare is 25 this year in March. My birth year is the other part of my username. Needless to say, I am an old-timer.


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## AnnaB264

This reminds me of the old cavalry horses. Imagine you are on horseback in a war, and you must get an important message to the general. You are going to ride your horse in a bold, determined way and not deal with anything as ridiculous as shying at flapping flags, or even gunfire for that matter. I think that when you have that sort of strong, confident focus, the horse knows it and trusts you. Has anyone ever been in an emergency situation and had to quickly go for help on horseback? I have, and believe me, I wasn't worrying about my horse being silly or spooking at something... we had to get back to the barn, and get back NOW. At that point I couldn't care less about my horse's concerns... he was just a mode of transportation for rapidly finding help.


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## Cherie

When people start talking about wanting to let their horse see everything and want him to check everything out or they want to get off and longe their horse a while until HE decides it is OK to go on I think of this kind of situation with two old cowboys like the ones in the Ace Reid cartoons. I see something like this:

Picture two old cowboys gathering a set of heifers on a rough pasture and bunch of them make a break for the heavy brush.

Zeke: "Hey Jim Bob! You need to cut across that draw and cut off those heifers before they git to the brush! I'll go this way to turn them to the corral."

Jim Bob: "I will, soon as I longe my horse a while. He don't wanna go down that steep draw. He's sceered of somthin. I don't want him to git upset. I'll be there soon as he's ready."

Zeke: "That's OK Jim Bob. Pet him a while and tell em it's OK. We kin always come back tomorrow and try to git em in. We'll call off the trucker and tell em we couldn't git em in today and he'll have to come back tomorrow to load em.

When horses have a job like Police horses and working ranch horses do, obedience is never optional. We don't ever lower ourselves to the level of a horse and 'argue' with them. We make ALL of the decisions and we expect a horse to just DO what is asked. A rider with this attitude get a lost less 'attitude' out of the horses they ride. Horses just respond by trying to do everything that is asked.


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## kiwigirl

Northern said:


> One of Cherie's posts describes step-by-step how she trains the "obedience & trust" into a horse, & that I find to be just "taking the time it takes" gradual development of the horse's trust by inching closer over time to the object (she said it can take 2 hours of going back & forth), so this is same as approach of the "relationship" folks. Cherie also said that she'll listen to her horse if it refuses to proceed on trail, giving snake experience as an example, so this is also same as approach of the "relationship" folks.
> 
> The bottom line is trust in the leader, & it's really not a matter of _training_ trust into a horse; trust is earned, by showing consistently that one is trust_worthy_.
> 
> How does the alpha get that unquestioning, instant obedience? By being the best leader/making the best decisions.
> 
> Humans do well to remember that horses are aware of dangers that we aren't, "out there"; thus we are handicapped in our judgement & must listen to our horses.


The one thing in this post that I question is this: Humans do well to remember that horses are aware of dangers that we aren't, "out there"; thus we are handicapped in our judgement & must listen to our horses.[/QUOTE]

See I don't believe that is very accurate. Yes, horses can be very tuned in to their environment but don't forget there are horses being put down every day because of that hole in the ground they didn't see or the snake bite they never saw coming. My point is that they are not magical creatures, they can be just as fallible as people when it comes to risk assessment. 

Also I don't understand why it keeps being insisted upon that we must listen to the instincts of a horse more than our own intellect and powers of reasoning. I don't understand why when we, as thinking, rational people who understand that an umbrella for example is not a threat, should be expected to put a horses mindless panic of an object it has absolutely no concept of, in the driving seat. This makes no sense to me. I am the leader because I know that that wrapped stack of hay is not a threat. I am the leader because I understand that an umbrella, flying plastic bag, dog barking behind the fence, are not threats. I am the leader because although I can't see it I know that that grunting sound is coming from a pig in a shed. Why would I let a horses irrational fear take charge?

I have established the role of leader by overriding my horses fearful instincts time and time again and she has never come to harm and now leaves the decision making to me very happily. 

At the end of the day a horse doesn't have to understand what the hell that flying ghost thing was, they just have to trust that you as the rider KNOW it is not a threat.


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## eliduc

The first three words of this thread are, "How we train..." so I took it to mean the horse was not yet fully trained. My father was in the last Ohio Cavelry Reserve and from what he told me their horses were superbly trained. Their riders didn't just jump on a green horse and start chasing Indians. Not only that they spent their lives on top of a horse. Nor would I jump on a totally green horse and go for a trail ride. That's foolish, at least for me. We visited a million acre ranch at the foot of Steen Mountain last summer. The cowboys ride every day often fifty miles. These guys could ride anything. I am sure they would think nothing about jumping on any horse and taking off but I am not them and my ways are not their ways. It has nothing to do with being confident. Every rider should have confidence but what I am takling about is common sense. I have an aquintence who someone gave a free five year old quarter horse to. This fellow knows nothing about horses. THe horse is very green and can be explosive. The first thing he wanted to do was ride it on a gravel road. Advising this fellow to hop on his horse and have the confidence to ride it past any obstacle that the horse spooks at would not be in his best interest.


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## eliduc

KiWi Can you hear the sound of my hands clapping?


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## pintophile

Cherie said:


> When people start talking about wanting to let their horse see everything and want him to check everything out or they want to get off and longe their horse a while until HE decides it is OK to go on I think of this kind of situation with two old cowboys like the ones in the Ace Reid cartoons. I see something like this:
> 
> Picture two old cowboys gathering a set of heifers on a rough pasture and bunch of them make a break for the heavy brush.
> 
> Zeke: "Hey Jim Bob! You need to cut across that draw and cut off those heifers before they git to the brush! I'll go this way to turn them to the corral."
> 
> Jim Bob: "I will, soon as I longe my horse a while. He don't wanna go down that steep draw. He's sceered of somthin. I don't want him to git upset. I'll be there soon as he's ready."
> 
> Zeke: "That's OK Jim Bob. Pet him a while and tell em it's OK. We kin always come back tomorrow and try to git em in. We'll call off the trucker and tell em we couldn't git em in today and he'll have to come back tomorrow to load em.
> 
> *When horses have a job like Police horses and working ranch horses do*, obedience is never optional. We don't ever lower ourselves to the level of a horse and 'argue' with them. We make ALL of the decisions and we expect a horse to just DO what is asked. A rider with this attitude get a lost less 'attitude' out of the horses they ride. Horses just respond by trying to do everything that is asked.


I think that's the problem. Horses nowadays generally DON'T have jobs. They often _aren't_ rode every day, and if they are, it's for perhaps an hour at a time or less. And a lot of them aren't worked with any high expectations. I see a lot of people getting their horses out every day to ride in circles around an arena for an hour. People don't ride horses anymore out of necessity, they ride them because they enjoy them. Because they oftentimes want a friend, not a working partner or source of transportation, and they don't want to force their perceived friend to go down that steep draw if it doesn't want to.

If we all used horses because we _had_ to, if horses had a job and had higher expectations set of them, we probably wouldn't see a lot of the problems we do. I know every horse I've ever had, even the super lazy ones, are a lot happier, quieter and more willing when they get worked every single day and have a job to do. I truly do believe that horses are a lot happier and will try a lot harder when they know what's expected of them, when they know they have a job to do, and especially when they know they have a leader so they can do their job without worrying about what's going to eat them.


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## Missy May

Well, it is all good advice - but nothing is w/o exceptions. I believe horses to be extremely intelligent animals (an IQ far above that of a dog, for reference), and just like people, ya have to get to know them as individuals. 

I rode cow horses for years..on cattle on working ranches. I have extremely talented buckskin which I have had since he was a yearling (he is a senior now). When he was younger, you could put him on cattle in roughest or the smoothest terrain .. and if you were willing you would learn a thing or two about pushing cattle from him - he knew his stuff! He didn't spook, didn't buck, didn't do anything but do his job to complete perfection. But, go down the road for a Sunday outing w/o a job in sight...and you might better make arrangements in case of your demise. He was extremely spooky when asked to just simply go "down the road", and he was sure there were black helos coming to get us, every time! The old boy was raised on the range and knew how to "stay safe".....which didn't include sniffing the monsters, but did include being on extreme high alert every second out of a "safety zone" w/o a job. And, his vigilance paid off…he was always the dominant horse when in a herd, and he was a fantastic "leader" - no one ever got hurt on his watch!

If one did not take the time to get to know the buckskin and they had ended up w him somehow w the intended purpose of trail riding....they would have had serious problems and may very well have not learned how talented he was. I hate to think what would have become of him under those circumstances. 

Pushing the buckskin and showing him who was boss on a pleasure trail ride was -worth your life. You couldn't "win" w the buckskin....at very best you could come to an understanding. I had actually had pro trainers comment on how I should handle him and "take the reins".....so, I just let them "show me how it’s done". The buckskin showed them. Like I said, I had him nearly all his life...I knew him inside out, and knew it wasn't my riding skills at fault. No one ever got it over on the buckskin on a trail ride. BUT, now, thanks to a little grade filly....he doesn't even spook at umbrellas!!! Not even mailboxes, flags waiving, or houses! WOW!

When the buckskin was over 20 he was no less spooky than when he was 2. He was retired from cow work, which meant he could only be ridden in a controlled situation (e.g., an arena). At his age he had seen it all before, it didn’t matter...he just spooked at the smallest of things no matter how many times he had been "habituated" to a particular thing. I mean, you had to be careful about the sound of candy wrappers around him - and he spooked at buildings of any sort, including houses! But, surprise!!!! Nooo more! I wish I had known what he needed when he was 3 – which was a fearless little filly w zero cow sense to show him the way! 

I bought the young grade filly for my daughter (my daughter later lost interest, now the mare is my pride and joy). I had no history on the little filly, but I would guess she was orphaned or weaned way too early. She was ignorant of even the very basic "herd manners", way underweight, but she was clearly very, very bright - I could see she had potential and would make a great partner - if someone gave her a chance. She was a follower, the extreme opposite of the buckskin. Since I was going to put my young daughter on her, I played with her a lot to see what she would spook at...which was very little in her "safety zone". The buckskin left dodge every time we started one of our "play sessions". In the beginning, the buckskin would try to “move her” away from the “dangerous games”. She ignored him – she doesn’t get “herd language”. A first for him…no one ever ignored his orders! Because the filly was so food oriented, I started clicker training her (on the ground only). The buckskin would watch us from a distance. After about 3 sessions, he actually came within 20 feet to watch…always at the ready to get gone. As time went by, he finally got close enough that I could offer to include him in the games. After about 3 such occurrences.....he just pushed the little filly out of the way and wanted to be front and center! I was amazed! So, I included him as much as I could - the filly was/is my main focus. THe filly was far more "advanced" at the games, which clearly irritated the old guy. His competitive nature wouldn't let him be outshined by some little upstart. We "played" with umbrellas, flags, pop guns, horns, bicycles...you name it. And to my shock...the old buckskin became calmer and calmer...until he was CALM - solid as a rock! 

So, show'n em who's in charge and making them keep going down the road - ordinarily will work. If the horse is smarter than you are....it may very well not. It shouldn’t chip away at your confidence, don't get rid of the horse, look for their talents and find another way!


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## MacabreMikolaj

Just reading this for the first time, fantastic post! Someone had mentioned bravery, and yes, unfortunately that is a huge part of it. You have to have the courage and conviction on a young horse to be confident enough to push him through it.

Jynx is a spinner. The first couple of deer we encountered as a youngster, I had her spin hard under me. It only took a couple times for me to know what she was a tendency to do and shut her down HARD when she hears a noise and reacts. I do my best to keep her moving and thinking, and being ready to shut down whichever side she may take a liking to spinning towards. She is very much a horse who needs a confident leader, or she'd turn into one heckuva spooky monster. As long as I ride her firmly forward, she forgets about whatever she's spotted mighty fast. If I hesitate for a second and let her look, I'm setting her up to spin.

Zierra is a high headed spooky Arab and yet a good trail horse in her own sense. I swear I've tried since the little snot was 4 years old to turn her into a dependable trail horse, and she just has her own ideas. She never balks, never refuses and rarely spooks except for these little "flinches" that happen constantly. I'll never understand how a horse can be so afraid and yet so confident in my leadership that she'll forge any terrain I ask of her without hesitation. She's always the horse to lead the pack when nobody else can get their horse past something, and yet every little bird or squirrel makes her "flinch" her body. It's quite weird! She's the only horse I've ever had such an issue with.


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## karebear444

Some great advice there and perfect for me as I'm a big trail rider thanks!


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## JavaLover

Hey everyone, some great advice here! I just have a question to ask and any info would be greatly appreciated. My current ride is a sometimes jittery, often spooky 12 year old Standardbred gelding. I do keep him under control and try my best to keep his attention focused on me, but I just have one problem. To get to the trails from where he is boarded, you have to ride for about 20 minutes up a dirt road. He's pretty good when cars drive by, but only if they're going slow. I would love some info on how to make him pay less attention to the cars.. but that isn't my question. This dirt road is also home to some heavy machinery (dumptrucks, backhoes, etc) and he is ABSOLUTELY terrified of them! He starts shaking, jumping from side to side, and immediately wants to turn around and bolt away. Any info on how to help him overcome his fear? Thanks!


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## karebear444

JavaLover said:


> Hey everyone, some great advice here! I just have a question to ask and any info would be greatly appreciated. My current ride is a sometimes jittery, often spooky 12 year old Standardbred gelding. I do keep him under control and try my best to keep his attention focused on me, but I just have one problem. To get to the trails from where he is boarded, you have to ride for about 20 minutes up a dirt road. He's pretty good when cars drive by, but only if they're going slow. I would love some info on how to make him pay less attention to the cars.. but that isn't my question. This dirt road is also home to some heavy machinery (dumptrucks, backhoes, etc) and he is ABSOLUTELY terrified of them! He starts shaking, jumping from side to side, and immediately wants to turn around and bolt away. Any info on how to help him overcome his fear? Thanks!


Is it possible for you to ride with someone else that has a horse that isn't afraid of machinery? Having another horse there to set a good example should help your horse be less reactive. I know it's hard, but the most important thing for you to do when he freaks out is to stay calm. If you are nervous or showing fear that will only make matters worse because you are his leader and if you are scared he is going to revert to running. When I first got my mare I actually had someone drive a car back and forth past me on the county road while I was leading her and then I did the same thing riding. We also went out in groups quite a few times before I even tried a solo ride. Hope this helps.


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## eliduc

Have you seen the sending exercizes some trainers do. They send the horse back and forth between themselves and the arena rail. At first the horse is reactive and tries to avoid the rail or rushes by it. It's like a Chinese fire drill. When I was a fireman I didn't care much for heights. We had a training excise one day where we climbed a ladder against a three story high building, ran across the top of a flat roof, went down another ladder, ran around the building to the first ladder and repeated the exercise for about a half hour. Pretty soon it didn't seem like anything. Same thing with the heavy equipment. If you can, ride by it at a distance and go back and forth past it. As your horse reacts less and less pass closer and closer to the object. It's similar to the sending exercise. Sometimes people overreact too. I don't know how many times I have seen a stressed out person struggle for an hour to get a horse in a trailer and then slam the door shut and drive off. The next time it's the same thing all over again when what they should have done is back the horse out and load him about twenty five more times before driving off. It's all about repetition and handler confidence. This is not pertaining to you at all but confidence or lack of is transmitted immediately and constantly through the rider's body to the horse. Dogs can actually smell fear which is secreted through our adrenal glands. I have no doubt that horses can too. 

When I was training my driving horse I had my wife assist me in the arena driving our truck. First I got behind her and let the horse chase her. Then she drove past him in the arena, then passed him coming towards him. Finally I drove him next to the truck. We did the same thing on our 1400 foot long driveway. The first time we went to town a school bus drove by and he didn't pay any attention. I don't know what he might have done if a semi had passed him at speed though.


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## pintophile

JavaLover said:


> Hey everyone, some great advice here! I just have a question to ask and any info would be greatly appreciated. My current ride is a sometimes jittery, often spooky 12 year old Standardbred gelding. I do keep him under control and try my best to keep his attention focused on me, but I just have one problem. To get to the trails from where he is boarded, you have to ride for about 20 minutes up a dirt road. He's pretty good when cars drive by, but only if they're going slow. I would love some info on how to make him pay less attention to the cars.. but that isn't my question. This dirt road is also home to some heavy machinery (dumptrucks, backhoes, etc) and he is ABSOLUTELY terrified of them! He starts shaking, jumping from side to side, and immediately wants to turn around and bolt away. Any info on how to help him overcome his fear? Thanks!


What are you doing when or before he gets upset?


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## JavaLover

Going out with someone else usually helps a little bit, but everyone seems to have such a hectic schedule and most of them hardly ever ride their horses :/ .. and I'm not gonna lie, I definitely am the type of rider that looks out for scary things up ahead so I can spot them before my horse does and I DO get nervous if it's something big because I need to hop off and pull him somewhere off of the road so he doesn't go ballistic.


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## Ian McDonald

Hey Cherie, I have a question. Apologies if its been asked already. For the horses that you sell, do you have an average length of time that you ride them before most of them seem to be broke enough to sell to someone with less experience? I sell the odd horse on occasion and I always worry that these horses will take advantage of the buyers once they (the horses) figure out that this new person ain't me. Have you ever had much trouble with that particular problem?


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## omgpink

Lots of great advice on the first post, don't have time to really read through all of the post. I've stopped competing and I know just trail ride with my little mare, she's 15. 
She's a really well rounded trail horse but the only problem I have with her is she is always looking left and right, sometimes so much she ends up completely going off trail almost, and it's an all time thing. She never spooks she just constantly looks at everything! I've had her for almost a year now and I just can't figure how to get her to just look ahead. 
What's the best way to teach her to keep her focus on the trail and me?


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## Cherie

Hi everyone -- sorry I did not catch these earlier.

For the real nervous horse, ride forward faster. 

Ride with a purpose. Treat it like it is a job.

Don't look at the spooky things. Look past things and ride to that distant point.

If you can, ride past a scary place, double the horse back (toward the place or object) and ride back and forth for as long as it takes for the horse to give up the fear. I have done this for more than an hour when Dobbin has convinced himself that he should be afraid of something.

If a horse is afraid of tractors, I get husband to take our big tractor and drag a harrow or ?? and I follow him all over the pasture. I just trot and keep the horse as close as I can to the tractor. 

Pretty soon, I can go along-side of the tractor and finally the tractor can follow him without him getting stupid. 

We live on a busy US Highway. It's parallel to I-35, it gets over-size loads and the rock trucks from the crushers in the mountains just south of us (where we ride). The rock trucks going north pass feet away from our arena. So, we just tie horses out next to the highway. We have a 5' tall pipe arena and 150' round pen making up the highway fence. We tie horses out there until they go to sleep and ignore the big trucks. We let people bring horses here and tie them by the road. I'm sure other people would let horsemen in their area do the same.

We will take horses to a practice roping and to playdays. They stand tied out of the way until they tune out the noise and activity. I did this with all of my show horses before I started hauling them.

I am not much on fighting with a horse. If they are herd-bound, I tie them out until they get quiet. If a horse is seriously freaking out at something, I might haul him 50 miles to 'set him up' where he had to get used to that something. If I have learned one thing in the last 50 years, it is that it is futile to fight a horse. They learn nothing when they are 'reactive' or 'on the fight'. They just get practice using resistance and are not receptive, are not thinking and sure are not learning anything good. I think that if you let horses get used to fighting with a rider every day, they just start out looking for that fight. They make a habit of fighting just like they learn any other habit -- good or bad.

I am also not much for taking horses out together. I think it is harder to break them of needing a friend along than it is to break them to go out bravely on their own in the first place. I have done it both ways and I find teaching them to go out on their own is FAR better and easier.

Some of you may know that I have severe arthritis. My joint and spinal degeneration has progressed to the point where I cannot ride much at all and ride mostly at a walk when I do try to ride. I can jog or post a little, but a lope is about impossible now with my back. 

I finally gave in and have brought in an apprentice from Virginia. She is all of 5'3" and about 120 pounds. So far she has put the first rides on about 10 or 12 young mares and geldings one big, stout 8 year old gelding that was barely halter broke. She has had ONE give one half-hearted jump and not a single buck, run-off or wreck so far. Since I have been getting in such bad shape the last few years, the untrained herd had gotten up to about 25 head that should have been started way before now. The young horse market crashed about the same time I did, so they just stayed in the pasture -- un-broke. I would not take them to the sale (three miles down the road) but they sure did not get any younger while they stayed there.

I tried several young ranch-raised 'cowboys' from around here. They could ride the hide off of anything, but they would not listen and always wanted to 'cowboy' the horses. 'Cowboyed' horses require a cowboy from now on (or at least a good while). Cowboys don't have any money and they only buy 'cheap' horses. The people that don't know how to ride have all of the money and little skill and they don't want 'cowboy horses'. Those people have always been my market. The horses have to be gentle, well-mannered and have to stay broke. Turn them out for 6 months and they have to come right back and ride just like they did. I always trained horses that don't need a round pen or a longe line -- even after a lay-off or vacation. You can saddle them up, get on and go ride. If you want them trained that way, you have to teach them and not 'cowboy' them. You have to teach their minds and not just pull 'wet saddle blankets' from them. Miles help a 'tough' horse, but you won't get much real training done if you count on just miles.

This young girl has started at least 10 or 12 head on the rough trails south of the ranch. I will ride a broke horse (or at least have one at the trailer) and she will ride on ahead on a green one. She rides 5 or 6 miles while I ride 1 or 2 at a walk if I ride at all. She can get me on the cell phone if she has a problem. I have had to ride to her and 'coach' her some a couple of times (not lately), but all of these green, green, GREEN colts have gone everywhere she has pointed their heads. They go out in the canyons, up and down steep rocky banks, across water -- anywhere. 

They get hauled to the mountains after 3 to 5 rides here at the ranch. They usually only stay in the round-pen for 2 rides. Then they get a 5 minute warm-up in the round pen and are ridden all over the ranch (where there are not loose horses) for the next ride or two and then it is out to the canyons. They learn to 'guide' and to stay between the rider's reins and legs (she did not know what that meant until she got here). They learn to lope circles in clearings, to 'leg yield' while riding in the brush and open places. We never ride them together and they quickly learn to go everywhere you point their heads -- by themselves.

None of these green horses has tried to throw her or even thrown a big tantrum. She is not experienced. She has never done this before. She had not ridden outside of a ring much, had never started any un-broke horses, never ground driven one and never stepped up on one for its first ride. She had mostly warmed horses up for a trainer at a boarding stable before I brought her here. She turned 19 last Friday and came last fall, right out of High School. So ladies -- don't despair. You can do it if your horse is not totally spoiled and has a trainable mind!

I am telling you this so that you can understand that you don't need to be big and tough. You don't need to be an expert or real experienced. [This girl has a very good seat and very good balance but started out with little knowledge, not great hands and no experience with a tough or green horse.] You need to learn to be smarter and you need to learn how and why horses do things. You need to know when to go tie one up and let him get his mind 'right' so he can learn. You need to know when to push one and when to accept what you are getting. You need to learn how to take steps that are logical to a horse. You need to figure out what is missing. If a horse is properly prepared for each new thing, then the next step goes off without a hitch or a hesitation. You don't have to look like a line-backer. [Actually, I think great size and strength are a handicap.] You can weigh 120 pounds and get a 1200# horse to do anything they are ready and able to do and do it without a fight.

I'll address the other two questions a little later. I am already seeing double. Cherie


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## dazey

Cherie, thanks. Your wisdom about horses is very valuable.


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## BlueSpark

great post


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## Soulofhorse

Thanks for the post, it really makes sense  My standardbred mare had been afraid of really everything and it took us 3 years to really get over it. Sometimes she still stops to think about a weird noise in a bush or to make sure the sadows in a forest are just deers and no predator, but she´s not dangerous as she had been before, she doesn´t panic or flee. And probably it would be much better if I´d have read this post the years before


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## digggin

What a great post! My daughter.s horse is a bit of a stumble-bum, and I laughed a bit when I read your post because I tend to watch his feet more than he does! However, I've started working with him again to get him back in shape and this post was wonderful insight. Even thoigh I have been riding all kinds of horses from green to seasoned, I never considered your idea posted above. Mainly because my information about desensitization came from John Lyons and Monty Roberts. Thank you for your post, as we all become better riders and in touch with our horses this small bit of info will help many.


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## Ripplewind

Good post, but I have to say I disagree with a few things.


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## dazey

HeatherinCali said:


> Hello Cherie,
> 
> I have been reading this thread with great interest. My focus is to create a trail horse like you describe. Can you recommend a book(s) or web site that teaches the techniques you use in your training? I'm especially interested in instilling confidence in my horse, as well as myself, as the rider.
> 
> Sorry if you have already answered this in a previous thread.
> 
> Thanks!


HeatherinCali, There's a small paperback handbook with title of Basic Training for a Safe Trail Horse that can be helpful in how to teach a horse to be safe on the trails. It's available on Amazon. One bad review was written by a trainer who took offense at postings on her website, so just realize this book contains innovative information that has been proven to work well even with a badly abused horse.


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## HeatherinCali

Thanks, Dazey! I'll check out that book!


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## greenbryerfarms

i think you have found my problem with my barrel horse! see at home he runs fine... all about work get him to a rodeo hes great till were in the arena! but he freezes and then its not harder and faster... its move at all..


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## HUntet02

Cherie said:


> For those that asked what kind of saddle is easier to stay in:
> 
> I have found a deep seated ranch saddle built on an 'Association Tree'. These are the deep seated saddles used by saddle bronc riders. I have a saddle like that, with a plain, hard seat, that we have used for years on colts. It is very secure and a LOT harder to fall out of.
> 
> But, it is not very comfortable for long rides. I may have a local saddle maker make a saddle for me on an Association Tree, but have it made with a dropped rigging (like the reining saddles that have less bulk under the riders upper leg) and a padded seat that is more narrow like the pleasure saddles made for female riders. The mens' saddles have much wider, flatter seats.
> 
> The other thing a rider can do is add 'bucking rolls' to the back of the pommel of the saddle. Many bronc riders and colt starters also use these on every saddle they ride.
> 
> I used to love riding Hunt Seat, but I have not put my Passier Saddle on a horse in 6 or 7 years. I just cannot stay in it any more -- even on a really broke horse.


--Cherie How about this one? My core balance is now terrible & I still lean forward on occasion but this saddle helps some although I'd like the assoc tree with swells a little more. 
Cherie I want it girl I want to be confident like you and make my horse better/more confident. I saw my horse transform in front of my eyes becoming confident and not caring about the scary things around her when my more exp cousin rode her I was never so sad and made a commitment to become better for my young mare. I'm gonna do it there is no one that wants to be a better rides for my horse than me...some days when I"m nervous I wonder if Clinton anderson isn't correct about taking a small drink before riding...LOL
​


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## antonella

great post! I'm new to the forum and only read this now. it is so true.
I always find it is my fear I have to overcome, and if I get his trust we can go everywhere. they always can feel when you are not confident, that is what makes it harder sometime. I wish I were such a good rider.


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## greenbryerfarms

my horse has personality and is no where near clinicaly trained he was trained by looking at things and me walking him oveer things blah then i realized exactaly what was said. i tought him to stop and look. now hes ready to start training for barrels guess what. he stops and looks at shows. i worked on this for a year now and hes a compleatly diffrent horse, and stil has personality no where near a dead head. please come ride him and maybe you will see that a horse can be tought to do this and still keep personality. that post bit my reer!


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## antonella

greenbryefarms, it is just what I thought. you see, you worked for a year, and now he is different. you need time, patience, and confidence. then you gain trust, and you are on the other side. completely different story. with my old horse (and he was a stallion) I sometimes lost my way home and, after a while, I let the reins on his neck and said "let's go home" and he always did. but we had been together for 18 years and we knew each other perfectly. where are you, by the way?


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## greenbryerfarms

it was nothing against your post at all =) just my two cence i like ridding horses that just do what i tell them but i kinda train horses in a diffrent way. all my horses are like that. put your reins down say hey lets be a horse and they take off running or whatever is there favorite im all for a horse being a horse. you can tell all of them lets get back to the barn and theyll take you home. its great. vandalia il. you?


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## antonella

*italy*

I'm in iTaly, greenbryefarms.


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## ktrolson

Thank you for all the information. I learned a lot!

Karen


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## prairiewindlady

On the subject of saddles....
have an OLD saddle I acquired from my Mom who bought it years before I was born. I grew up riding English so I know NOTHING about it, but since I transitioned to trail riding it has become my main saddle. All my friends can't stand to use it and tell me the seat is rock hard but I personally find it extremely comfortable. It has gotten to the point where I won't go out in anything else because I feel SO secure in it.


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## prairiewindlady

(sorry double posted by mistake!)


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## CarmenL

Thanks for this thread. Lots of really great advice. I'm off riding today with this advice in mind!


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## greenbryerfarms

HUntet02 said:


> --Cherie How about this one? My core balance is now terrible & I still lean forward on occasion but this saddle helps some although I'd like the assoc tree with swells a little more.
> Cherie I want it girl I want to be confident like you and make my horse better/more confident. I saw my horse transform in front of my eyes becoming confident and not caring about the scary things around her when my more exp cousin rode her I was never so sad and made a commitment to become better for my young mare. I'm gonna do it there is no one that wants to be a better rides for my horse than me...some days when I"m nervous I wonder if Clinton anderson isn't correct about taking a small drink before riding...LOL​


*THATS so funny when i was younger 13 i was ridding my un trained horse thu trails and boy was i scared how my gelding was fearless of all things around him ill never know! Although i rode with over 100 trainers at times a few that i rode with a lot would buy me wine or winecoolers just to settle my nerves i dont know if it ever worked or if its even a good idea. seemed to me i was just trusting my horse to be good, work hard, and not make us look stupid. now its me that has to be the leader... hes not the same horse anymore. i dont know what happend but im more confident and take him places he doesnt wanna go! *


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## chuckdee

Excellent, informative post. In some ways, it's a lot like training a dog!


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## Rockabillyjen33

*Cherie!*

I would really love to speak with you about my just turned 7 year old MFT that thinks everything might eat him on the trail even though I've been working with him for 10 months on groundwork, trusting me as his leader, etc. I'm new and can't send PMs yet would you mind contacting me : [email protected]? I understand if you don't have the time. I do like and understand your approach which is why I ask! Thx!


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## gfletcher342

*Horse Training Ideas*

I've run to several post about how to trail a horse but this is much more useful for me. You indeed have a sense of horsemanship. I'm a horse lover and so I want to know more and more about horses. Keep posting!


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## colenelson782

I have a TB that was retired from the track and was rescued from a feed lot. He is very smart horse and want to use him for a trail rider. He has spent very little time on the trails. I have been working with him for a couple months to get him where I want him to be mentally. But after reading your post I am begining to wonder if I should think about getting a different horse. Is that my best bet? Cause he has came a long ways in the few months that I have had him or should I continue to working with him?


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## Rockabillyjen33

colenelson782 said:


> I have a TB that was retired from the track and was rescued from a feed lot. He is very smart horse and want to use him for a trail rider. He has spent very little time on the trails. I have been working with him for a couple months to get him where I want him to be mentally. But after reading your post I am begining to wonder if I should think about getting a different horse. Is that my best bet? Cause he has came a long ways in the few months that I have had him or should I continue to working with him?


I don't see any reason why your OTB can't be a good trail horse. I know plenty of TBs that are fine trail horses. When I was 16 I had one that became a great trail horse once she learned to watch her feet instead of sightseeing. It sounds like your horse has been coming along so as long as you don't mind putting in the work to CREATE a good trail horse (as opposed to buying one that is already good) stick with him - in my opinion!


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## dazey

Good advice from Rockabillyjen33. Key word is "create" and you can do it by teaching a horse. That's why Basic Training for a Safe Trail Horse is a good handbook for HOW to teach and create a trail horse. One good way to teach a horse to watch where it puts its feet is to ride over clear-cut areas (at a walk) Even a gaited horse with high head carriage can learn to pick its way carefully and become as good a "peanut roller" as any Quarter Horse.


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## RIDEorDIE

I think you put that really well. A lot of riders are the ones making their hoses panic about their surroudings instead of just riding them through the trails,


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## PrettyLilSweety

*This Is Great*

Thanks for the post. I mostly ride trails and am currently training a 3yr old. i mostly take her hiking on trails with me sice she isnt broke yet but occasionally we hit the trails bareback when shes doin good. But from what ive seen from other peoples horses on the trails is my 3yr old has way more confidence on the trail than many 12yr olds. I love your idea of ignoring everything because i once had a pony who had to move her head from side to side so she could site see.


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## coltrule

I disagree, If my horse is scared of some thing,and it wants to check it out (sniff it) I let it, i'm happy that its checking it,and not just avoiding,so that way the next time we go by, it will go past it like nothing...


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## kiwigirl

I personally think that if you have to stop and let your horse sniff everything a ride can get very tedious and boring. For myself I would rather have my horse in the habit of walking by something unusual and scary as opposed to having to go through the whole stop, stare, sniff, rigmarole - it gets old real quick. But that's just my personal preference.


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## coltrule

kiwigirl said:


> I personally think that if you have to stop and let your horse sniff everything a ride can get very tedious and boring. For myself I would rather have my horse in the habit of walking by something unusual and scary as opposed to having to go through the whole stop, stare, sniff, rigmarole - it gets old real quick. But that's just my personal preference.



Well thats what you want in the end of the day,but at 1st,when there young,and just starting to learn, I want them to see (sniff) anything,and after a while,the'll be like, ah, its nothing, its old for them, they don't wanna do it.


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## goneriding

If you choose to let your horse sniff everything, you had better hope that whatever it is sniffing does not spook your horse. Now if it does every time you pass it, your horse will get nervous because you drew attention to it. You made it an "issue."


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## coltrule

goneriding said:


> If you choose to let your horse sniff everything, you had better hope that whatever it is sniffing does not spook your horse. Now if it does every time you pass it, your horse will get nervous because you drew attention to it. You made it an "issue."


if she goes to sniff it,and she spooks, then I get off of her, and put a halter on her,and do ground work with her around it,till she reliezes its good. I follow Clinton Anderson.


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## dazey

As mentioned before, Basic Training for a Safe Trail Horse is a small paperback handbook that describes how to build a relationship with your trail horse where it will trust your judgment. Here's what it says about spooking: "The stronger your partnership is with your horse, the quicker he will learn to confront fearful things on the trail. KEEP YOUR HORSE'S HEAD TOWARD THE FEARFUL OBJECT. Approach at a walk making circles around it or loops beside it. As he gets nearer, have him stand and praise him.......guide him closer to the object and praise him for obeying your cues to stand.......It is dangerous to dismount and try to lead your horse to encounter something of which he is frightened, because the chance that he can jump on you is high..............Employing repetition of the maneuvers to teach your horse to confront something scary until he can walk by or "chase" (moveable like a bicycle) it three times in a calm manner becomes boring to your horse as well as to you....." Horses dislike boredom, so this repetition is a good tool. Horses are intelligent enough to learn to choose not to react to something rather than experience boring repetition!


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## Darrin

I was told to let my horse stop and sniff things if he was nervous about passing. I turned my rarely spook horse into a spooker. When I stopped letting him stop to sniff he stopped spooking.


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## bsms

I thought "Basic Training for a Safe Trail Horse" was a rotten book.

"It is dangerous to dismount and try to lead your horse to encounter something of which he is frightened, because the chance that he can jump on you is high."

Well, it can't be that high. I had a very spooky mare, and I started her trail training by leading her on a lead line. At the start, she'd panic in 100 yards. We worked up to about 1.5 miles, and then I started riding her. We're doing 6+ miles with other horses and I plan to start her on solo work soon.

But in all that leading time, she never once showed any sign of wanting to jump on me. Nor was I ever stupid enough to stand directly between her and an escape route - but my goal was to calm her past things, not pull her by brute force.

A couple of days ago, she encountered her first motorcycle on the trail. He was headed toward us, the trail barely wide enough for us both, and cactus on either side. Happily, he saw she was nervous, stopped & killed his engine. I dismounted and led her up to him. When she heard him talk, she let out a sigh and relaxed. We squeezed on by, he restarted his engine, I mounted, and we went out opposite ways.

I suppose I could have sat on her back and whipped her butt, but that would only have scared her more. In her defense, he really did look like a 200 lb horsefly.

Perhaps it depends on the horse & situation? If my horse is a little tense, I'll have her push on. But if she is scared - really scared - trying to force her on would buy me a "spin and bolt". Or a rear, perhaps.


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## AussieLina

Fantastic OP! Thank you and I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Cowgirl08

What do u think of ahorse that wrings her tail when riding? She's thrown 3 ppl including me but a friend of mine rides her great what's going on? I was starting to get comfortable with her until she completely did a 180 then reared twice and I fell off lol could have been alot worse I rode her again yesterday and she started wringing her tail and I got off.


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## Darrin

Generally when they wring their tail like that they are uncomfortable, mad or both. What you have to do is figure out what is causing the problem. If my horses do that it's because I didn't get the saddle or pad set right. For your horse? That's for you to figure out, things to check: Ill fitting saddle, wore out pad, bit not adjusted right, pulling on the reins to much, etc, etc. The list of what you could be doing wrong is pretty darn log. But I will say there's some attitude in there too, no way she should be trying to ditch her rider because she's not comfortable which is where mad comes into play.

Try this, have your friend tack up the horse and watch her then try riding to see what happens. If she's improved then you had best darn learn what you are doing wrong tacking up. Second, have someone film you and your friend riding. Whatch those videos and see what difference there is between riding styles.


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## Skyerider

I agree that an ill fitting saddle causes so much bad behavior in horses.


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## trampis67

Now THAT is sound training advice!!! THANKS!!


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## Christawho

*Thanks you*

Thanks for the post, I am brand new to the horse business, I'm 47 and having my own horse has always been a dream of mine. Several months ago I decided to just "do it". So I searched every site, and found not only a horse for me but one for my 8 year old. Next week both horse are coming home. My husband is completely supportive and has been helping to get everything ready, pasture, barn, stalls, etc. I've been reading everything I can on horses, re. buying, feeding, keeping, riding, training. I have no hands on experience and my husband has very little. I am a little nervous about everything and I don't want that to be past on to my horse. Any more advice you have will be greatly appreciated.


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## lives2hope

This is an awesome post.

If the rider is looking at a 'booger', you can bet that the horse is going to be looking at it, too. Many people 'spook' worse than their horse. They are looking for scary objects down the trail before their horse is. If that is part of a rider's problem, they need to learn to ride far ahead of where they actually are. 

I just want to share a little bit about my own experience with spooking my horse. My horse and I compete in extreme trail so it is very important that I take the lead with her and keep her trust. I am a very confident rider so I never grasped this spooking your horse business until last winter. In my neck of the woods we have a lot of dog teams I didn't realize just how many (we moved out here a year ago) until last winter when they all started showing up and riding their sleds with their teams down the same trails I was riding on. The first couple times we just jumped off trail and let the mushers on by. she was nervous but I kept her calm and she eventually got over it. 

Until one day when it was snowing really hard the wind was blowing making it nearly impossible to hear, and a musher came right up on us. Now most of the mushers will stop and wait if they know you can't hear this guy was not so kind and let his dogs get close enough that they were snapping at my horses back legs. She spooked and jumped off trail nearly unseated me crashing through the woods but I got her under control and turned around just in time to see that the musher no longer had control of his dogs and they were surrounding the other horse I was riding with. They were snapping and biting at her, She came out okay but it scared the crap out of me. After that every time I saw a musher I spooked, and would send my horse galloping to the other side of the trail or galloping ahead so I could turn down a different road. It was insanity but I couldn't seem to stop myself, all I kept seeing is what could have happened, how badly injured my horse could have been. 

It is really hard to focus on what you are suppose to be doing when you are so hyper focused on the what if. I was no longer riding my horse in the moment I was riding her in the what if. It didn't really sink in until I got us into trouble bolting away from a musher it was too slick but I wasn't paying attention to the road I was watching the musher I was running from; my horse nearly fell down, and both of us could have been really injured. I knew then I was going to have to do something about the whole thing. So I confronted my fears in order to get over it and it wasn't easy. I asked a neighbor who mushed if I could ride behind him and then in front he was kind enough to let me. I was a wreck my horse was a wreck but after doing this three times I was able to get it under control. The minute I relaxed and calmed down her head went right down and her body went from ridged to soft it was amazing. Now I still jump when a musher comes up on us unexpectedly, but it is getting smaller every time it happens and now my horse is stepping off trail not bolting into the woods.


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## MurrayLover12

Amazing tips that will be used thanks!


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## Juniper

lives2hope, I can totally sympathize with your experience. Most of the mushers around here are fabulous, but one lady has no control over her sled and dogs. They came upon us on a very narrow section of the trail, we said hang on a sec while we get off the trail, takes a minute in the deep snow and thick trees, she stopped and then for some reason let the dogs go. My horse's front feet were bouncing through the traces as we were trying to get out of the way, he was kind of doing this hop up with his front feet and the dogs were snapping at his legs. It was a horrible vision I will never forget, in a blink of an eye you think your horse might get crippled for life. The horses coming on the trail behind me were half off the trail and the snapping dogs missed their legs by millimeters. Don't get me wrong, I don't see sled dogs as viscous in temperament but they sure snap when sledding. 
We quit riding on that trail because it was such a traumatic experience. Very impressed that you found such a pro active way to conquer the situation.


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## lives2hope

Juniper you don't know how lucky you are most of the mushers here are nice but there are several with what I call attitude to say the least. They don't think that horses should be allowed on their trails or any of the trails they might use. Several have purposefully tried to scare us off the trails. I am pretty sure that this is what that guy was trying to do and his dogs got out of control. I forgot to mention that this was a double trail he could have easily moved to the other trail and passed right on by us like the three mushers before him did. The huskies are fine dogs but they are raised with a very strong pack mentality, a lot of these dogs have had very few human interactions. They are more then capable of biting a horse especially in a pack, at least most that I know, I have worked with a lot of them in rescue. So just be careful it is a very real danger to your horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I know how you feel but here it's snowmobiles. And it INFURIATES me because we ride in a provincial park and they HAVE their own bloody trails to ride down, but do they leave ours alone? NOOOOOO. The bridle path is literally big enough for two horses to ride side by side. Last winter, we heard of a terrible accident when a kid came flying around a turn and smashed full on into a horse and rider. I'm not sure how bad the injuries are, but I don't imagine THAT person is ever riding down the trails in winter again. I don't even know why we go because I spend the entire time nervous and on edge and obviously my horse feels that. They aren't afraid of snowmobiles but that can change in a second if we have to try and make room for some (@*^#^@& flying by us at 100 miles an hour.

The next time I see one, I'm making a barricade and taking down plates. It's flat out ILLEGAL for them to be on our trails in winter. Most people are already annoyed that they're allowed in the park at all.


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## DashforCash

Thanks that was a great post.


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## justxride97

Thank you! That was so helpful! I know it must have taken a while to type all that. I appreciate it


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## canterburyhorsetrailrider

trailhorserider said:


> Great post Cherie! I love reading your posts (I saved a similar post you did from a long time ago on training trail horses).
> 
> Since trail is what I "do" I really try to learn all I can.
> 
> I seem to have a knack for riding nervous/high strung horses and I think it's because I don't feed off of their fear. It's not that I don't get afraid, because there is always a time and place that I can get scared too. But I "don't sweat the small stuff" and get bent out of shape if the horse jumps at something or worries a little or refuses to walk or gets jiggy. I just have gotten to the point that I let that stuff roll off, do the best I can to control the situation and keep riding.
> 
> I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war.
> 
> I usually let my horses stop and look at scary things for a moment or two and then attempt to ride on like it is nothing. Most of the time that works for me. I will keep in mind that perhaps I should just ride on like it is nothing to begin with. Sometimes a horse has so much fear of an object you can tell that if you just ride on past the horse will try to flee from it. If I feel that is going to be the case I let them "look" until I feel we can ride past it without fleeing. It seems like those few seconds lets the horse settle a bit instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction.
> 
> But in any approach, the rider needs to take the attitude that whatever the scary object is, it is nothing at all and not project nervousness to the horse.
> 
> Thank you for the great advice.


Great stuff.... I to have a similar style with riding horses.. sure.. you at times may hit the ground... its life. its riding horses. but being relaxed and your horse seeing and feeling you relaxed goes a long way...

I TOO Initially allow my horse to stop and take a look at things that he is afraid of, but once he has seen this once or twice. I encourage him after that to ignore such things and move along..

I allow my horse to skirt around such things and dont insist he goes rite close every time. he knows I will allow him to keep a little distance when passing these objects.

The writer above you is right, in keeping the horses head pointing where you want to ride and discourage the horse from looking all around... they are correct in keeping your horse moving as the horse approaches things that he is unsure of.... practise quietly talking to your horse and he or she over time will hopefully learn to trust your voice and manner in riding..

You should work on teaching your horse TRUST in you....!

With trust you can open your horses mind to all sorts when the horse trusts you with its life...!

Enjoy your journey.... take a seat... as this journey may take a while..(smilies)


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## toosexy4myspotz

i am currently undoing what i did to my 4 1/2 yo mare. i trained her based upon some advice that several different trainers gave me and if you can't stay calm and relaxed and sit deep in the saddle you don't stay on when she gets spooked or agitated. they told me to let her stop look and smell . woo boy was that a massive mistake! i had two babies within two years so i didn't get to do much riding. i am back to working with her on the ground seven days a week. several hours a day. and so far she is doing fabulous at paying attention to me. once in a while she will take her attention off me and i will quickly ask for something and then she starts focusing again. we are going on a trip this weekend and i an going to put cheries method to test. i no longer let her even glance at something she is afraid of for a split second. it hard and very complicated undoing this awful habit i taught her but because it was my fault she developed this habit i feel now that it is ten times more important that i correct it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## luvlongears

Cheri that is excellent advice for a "horse" rider, but would never ever work in the world of mules. Yes, you still need to be the dominant one, and command respect, however, with a mule, you must "convince" him that there is no boogie monster. You have to change their mind about being scared, otherwise, you will be fighting a loosing battle. You WILL NOT win. You have to let them look and check it out and decide for themselves that they are not in danger. And if you can't convince them that whatever it is that they are afraid of is not gonna eat them, then they are going to get the heck outta Dodge and you are either with them or you're not. They are all about self preservation. First and foremost. And if you happen to get a good minded mule, then one or two scary monsters terminated, and you will have one the best riding animals. They also "watch" where they step. Hence the reason for such sure footedness. And the reason they are used in the Grand Canyon, they would never step off the side of the cliff! Just saying'.......


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## luvlongears

Oh yeah, and I meant to ask you, How would you go about teaching one to go through water, like a creek or river? You would have to ride straight at it and not be able to go around it? If you did go around it, wouldn't you then be teaching the horse to go around things he didn't like? and you can't really go around a creek? So when your horse balks at that how do you handle it? Just curious. We live right by the Santa Ana River and ride through it quite often.


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## Cherie

Almost laughed my a$$ off at your assessment of mules. Your mules have trained you --- not unusual, by the way. I've trained hundred of them, used to raise them and love them dearly. The last time the horse market went in the toilet was in the 80s. 350,000 horses a year were being sent to slaughter. We kept our mares, bought a very gently Spanish Jack and raised, trained and sold mules for about 8 or 10 years. We were selling $5000.00 mules ($1500.00 weanlings) out of AQHA mares when there were only lunk-headed obnoxious mules around that had to be handled with chain halters and scotch ropes. I was not new to mules. I had trained quite a few over the years as a public trainer. I learned how to get along with them way back in the 60s and 70s when well-bred mules were rare. 

Mules are very different and sooo much smarter and they do take longer to train. It is even more important to establish good leadership with a mule than a horse. When you learn how to establish who is in charge, a mule will go through fire for you. I ride a green colt through a running creek on about ride 8 or 10, sometimes much sooner and seldom have to have one follow or be led by another horse. I used to wait a few more rides on a mule just because it takes a little longer to establish good forward impulsion, which is the key. If I was going to ride a green mule and I knew I had to cross water before I really felt I was ready to, I always had had a good halter and lead with me so I could snub him to another horse or mule if I had to. I preferred to have him ready to ride through water ahead of any horses. They follow horses very well but it takes a lot more training skill to teach them to be the front horse/mule. This was always my goal when I trained them.

There are many keys to getting a fearless forward going mule. It is even more important to establish good leadership very early in the relationship. It is even more important to have VERY GOOD forward impulsion established early in their training. They are natural born followers. They would prefer to stop a think about what they don't understand. This is what they do by nature. This is what donkeys do. If you want a mule to ride forward like a horse (and they will), you have to establish very early in their training that they need to trust you and not their natural instincts. If you want a mule to lope like a horse (and they can), you have to establish a good lope on the first few rides or you will be fighting a losing battle trying to teach one to lope later in life. 

I am constantly telling people that "Horses are creature of habit. The rider/trainer has to make sure they are good habits!" This is even more true of mules. Whatever kind of relationship you establish and whatever kind of riding habits you establish (like stopping and looking at everything) is even more set in stone in a mule. I used to retrain a lot of horses that were very spoiled. It is a lot harder to retrain a spoiled mule (some bad habits are impossible to get rid of). It is a lot harder to change their way of doing things -- like stopping and looking.

As for so few good-minded mules -- I cannot even remember one I raised that I would even start to consider to be bad-minded. They were real sweeties. They were easy to catch, tied anywhere, led good, loaded in any trailer and never tried to jerk away or bolt (a real common mule trick if you have ever been around them). The last mules I trained are now well over 20 years old and I still know where some of them are and their owners still love them and would not think of selling them. A couple became top team roping mules and could hold their own in open team ropings where everyone else rode horses.

I really suspect that you have babied yours, fed into its insecurities and not been a strong enough leader if you are having all of these problems. It really sounds like your mule is pretty thoroughly 'in charge'. You would have to convince me otherwise.


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## jaydee

Very good post. It concerns me how many horses are spending their lives only working in a menage or going to a showground. In the UK we mostly have to ride on busy roads to get anywhere so our horses have to have a good grounding in accepting everything they need to pass - coping with traffic is only a part of it as spooking at a plastic bag, barking dog or large rock can send you under that truck thats going by. Anything more than a bounce off the ground and landing back in the same spot is unacceptable so they are trained like that from day one, even on a lead line that running away from anything isn't allowed - once they learn to run away they will do it again.
I have seen people 'rush' horses past thing they dont like rather than making them face their demons - this sort of thing encourages bolting. Sometimes its better to dismount and lead the horse to the scarey monster and make it stand by it - I will give treats for good behaviour in this type of incidence. Standing by scarey thing = treats works better than being whipped for being afraid of something they dont understand.
Our young horses are never taken out on their own until they are confident with the world outside the yard/barn. A good steady buddy gives them so much reassurance. A serious mistake with a green horse that suddenly finds itself out of its depth in a situation and a rider that isnt as experienced as they thought they were can scar it for life. There is a huge difference in challenging a horse within its realistic capabilities for dealing with things and pushing it so far out of its comfort zone it panics
Being relaxed but always in control is so important. They pick up on fear and tension in the rider. I have known lots of horses that spook at things because the rider expects them too and yet when ridden by someone who isn't aware of that horses dislike of something they will frequently not spook at that thing at all.
If you are constantly saying 'my horse doesn't like red bricks and will never get over it then you are training your horse to dislike red bricks by accepting that fear.


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## loosie

luvlongears said:


> How would you go about teaching one to go through water, like a creek or river?


Well if it were a small mule.... my Dad had the rather dubious practice:-|(he survived it, surprisingly:lol of picking up my donkey's back feet & wheelbarrowing him wherever he wouldn't go the conventional way!:shock:

**Please note, I'm not advocating anyone try this at home!!


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## livelovelaughride

Today my new boy, Ed and I went on our first off property (trailered to) 12 mile trail ride. There were several small groups strung out along the way. I'd planned to ride with a certain group but we found they were walking too slowly- I was always pulling on his face or zig zagging so as not to crowd the horse in front. Fiinally I decided to just let him go comfortably, which is a pretty forward walk. There were 2 times I thought it safer for me to hop off and walk...one in which some riders were passing us on the road which then continued to be a trail...he wanted to join them and started cantering sideways on the road...ugh. Had a hard time bringing him down, he was fighting me. Not til they were out of sight was he calmer. The other time he just did not like some boulders/car in shadow/whatever and after 6 tries I decided to walk him and remount. All the other attempts by him looking at something for a moment or two, went fine. I could feel him relax, breathe, and move forward. THe most interesting spooking episode was with a chicken sign we had passed in a group on the way out...on the way back we were alone...he was fussing about it and he did that backwards thing with me circling him and finally he went off in a trot toward it and passed it. We spent 75% of the 12 miles alone. We would join some groups for a few minutes and then end up passing them with his big walk. I was really pleased with this first effort after some of the quirkyness I have seen off property. I think this ride was a good step in getting a better feel for him. I am looking forward to more trails soon as we are moving to a lake-side barn.


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## McCurdy33

My horse seems to spook at everything including her shadow or the wind blowing the leaves so they move ? does anyone have an idea what i could do to make her behave better ? and she will just start trotting on her own . any tips ?


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## Saranda

She is not behaving bad, she is just being a horse that is afraid from something she is not sure of because she doesn't feel you as a strong and trustworthy leader who will be able to protect her. The same with the trotting - it is believable that she is just afraid, and, when a horse, as a prey animal, is afraid - it tries escaping danger in the most effective way possible. By running away from it.

Without knowing anything more about your horse (her and your training level, methods you use, her history, her health, her age, your riding environment, etc.) I will refrain from any specific suggestions, though.


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## alexis rose

Thank you for the post Cherie! Knowing what to do now just made my confidence better. I know this is off topic but Phar Lap has never spooked on a trail yet but he is barn sour sometimes. He walks really fast and then all of a sudden he will spin and if I try to turn him back he will crow hop and rear. At first he got his way because I got rattled and lost my confidence and I would just let him go back. It was a huge mistake! Now using suggestions from comments on here has built us both back up and he listens to me now and totally trusts me when I want him to do something. 

When he stops on a trail I know there is something seriously wrong now too. We were riding a couple months ago and he just stopped so I looked around. He had a vine that was underneath him with thorns on it. I got off and had to literally pick his feet up and adjust him so he could walk out and not get hurt. I had to trust that he wouldn't bolt and he trusted me to help him while I got off and had to let go of the reins with nothing to tie him to. Our bond is definitely stronger than I could have ever imagined.


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## Missy May

I found what follows interesting. It made me re-think "communication" dynamics. My old buckskin had a particular place on a particular trail that he was intensely against going through. It is only about 20-30 feet long. It has a lot of growth on either side, a lot of rocks, and a small arroyo in the center. Nothing remarkable, however, it is the type of place one commonly finds rattlers - in fact, if I were wanting to find one, I would look there first thing. My mare never had a problem w traversing this tiny stretch of that particular trail, _ever_. The two had never been ridden together on any trail. My mare was pastured w my buckskin for a good while. The first, and every subsequent time (a total of 3 times), that I took her through it after she returned from being pastured w him...she snorted and blew, got extremely spooky, and had to be urged through it. She is not a spooky mare. She can get "excited", upon seeing other horses on the trail for example, but she is not spooky. To date, she has never spooked at a rattler on the trail buzzing away, the buckskin absolutely did.

This made me think. Perhaps, while she was w the buckskin in pasture he spooked at areas that had a similar "pattern" as this little stretch in question. While he probably knew what the "danger" was (i.e., rattlers), she just knew he was afraid of it - and he was a sharp cookie that knew his way around, so she "took his word for it". It was a very large pasture w trees, streams, hills, etc., - the "patterns" available are/were endless. 

So, anyway. I thought I would post my "possible explanation" for this odd observation as just something to consider when musing over "what it is" that spooks certain horses on the trail.


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## LauraJo

I spent 3 days reading this entire thread. THANK YOU ALL for your input, sharing your experiences etc. Everything has been taken in with a grain of salt, and, once fully processed, will be indispensable help!


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## MustangMama

Hi Cherie(and everyone else!) I am having an issue, that after reading what seems like every thread in the training forum and finding nothing useful, I found yours!! I recently aquired a 16 yo Mustang mare..The guy that I got her from had only had her a couple months and told me that she was crazy, he couldnt even catch her, nevermind doing anything else with her..and on top of all of that , that she was bred.(I do not believe this mare has anything special to contribute by breeding her, except someone trying to make a quick buck) BUT I ramble...lol..this is my problem..I have had her 2 weeks..in those 2 weeks I have had no issues catching he, leading her, I can touch her everywhere on her body..so Im thinking this guy had no idea what he was talking about and was just afraid OR she does not like men..she likes my bf but acts very upset around any other man.. I am told that she is not trained under saddle so Ive been taking it kinda slow, building a little trust between us and decided yesterday that it was time to try a saddle.. She was somewhat nervous when I put the pad on, side stepping a bit and shaking a lil, but I blamed that on her being 16 and never having that experience..then I went to put the saddle on her, thats when she broke down..I have been training for 18 years and have NEVER had a horse react like this..she started shaking so bad that Iknow her muscles have to still hurt today..she was completely terrified..not just nervous because of something new but I think she truly thought that me or the saddle were going to start beating her to death at any moment..Any advice on how to teach her to not be so afraid? She loves to eat of course, so I put the saddle over the stall wall and saddle pad caddy cornered, with her feeder in between and kept putting a lil grain and it took her almost 15 minutes to eat a handful because she was too afraid to go near her feeder..this from a mare who will finish 1/4 coffee can in less than a minute I left the saddle in her stall all night ( I know this goes against your , not letting a horse get used to objects this way) but I didnt and still dont know what to do next other that hobbling and cross tying her and just slinging the saddle up there and getting it tied on as fast as possible..She also has a decent sized scar that goes across her eye and all the way down the side of her head(seems to have been a pretty bad wound at one time) but with her being BLM that could have happened durin round up just as easily as her actually having been beaten..


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## Darrin

Just keep doing what you are doing. Desensitize here to the saddles presence first. Once she relaxes with it sitting near by start picking it up and bringing it to her one step at a time. Give her time to adjust to it being near her. Once she'll stand quietly while you stand next to her with the saddle, start touching her with it. Slowly work to the point you can put the saddle on her without a panic attack. Do the same getting her to where you can cinch her up lightly. Lead her around until she's comfortable with the saddle on her back then start slowly working her with a saddle on. Once she's comfortable doing that it's time to work on mounting, again, slowly.

Basically, treat her like a 3 yr old that is just being introduced to the whole riding thing for the first time.


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## MustangMama

That is what I am doing, to me she is a halter broke 3 year old that has other wise been untouched. Not sure if this is going to help in the long term...but she is completely oblivious of the saddle by her feed pan now. That alone took 3 days..I have also cut her grain back to just a handful once a day, down from a half a can a day. Shes not working enought to need it and its not cold enough yet for her to need it.. SHe is just scared of everything, I dug my the winter blankets out yesterday and measured her for one..cant wait to see how putting a blanket on her goes.. hope I survive


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## hollysjubilee

I love what John Lyons says, "Your horse will be as focused as you are." If we are focused on the scary thing, then our horses will be, too. If we are focused on getting and keeping the horse's attention; focused on getting him yielding to pressure and being obedient, then our horses will be focused on us and on what we're asking (some goofy horses take longer to convince  ) Great description. Thank you!


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## Bluebird

ridergirl23 said:


> Thanks for the great post! I have seen way to many riders who are more spooky than their horses are!!


IT makes interesting reading and some of what you say makes absolute sense. The problem that we have in England is that our horses have to have 'road sense'. We have to ride them in traffic sometimes with double decker buses and large lorries passing within a few feet of them. If we get in trouble, we can't ride them through it as there is nowhere to go so we have to do 'de-sensitisation'. Although I know what you are saying about spooky horses, de-sensitising DOES work too but it really depends on what you are using the horse for. Wish we had 'trail rides' and didn't need to do any road work at all, ever! You guys are so lucky to have all that open space.


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## Bluebird

Cherie said:


> It seems that every time I come to this site, there are 2 or 3 or even more questions about training a trail horse to go anywhere and everywhere the rider points its head. Since this is what we do for a living, I thought I would try to explain what it takes and how to go about it.
> 
> We have trained nothing but trail horses since we got too old and are in too poor health to train cow horses and reining horses any more. We always rode our cow horses out and they were perfect trail horses and we sold the horses that would not make competitive cow horses as trail horses for many years - about 35 or 49 years anyway. Now, that is all we can do.
> 
> It does not take age. We have had MANY 2 year olds that would go anywhere you pointed their heads. I have sold 3 year olds to novice riders that are still perfect trail horses 10 years later. [I got 2 e-mails just last week from people that bought horses 3-5 years ago and keep me up on their adventures. Both of those horses were 3 year olds. ]
> 
> 'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider, but I have not had a problem making a good trail horse out of anything. I have made good trail horses out of many spoiled horses, but that takes a lot more skill and riding ability than what many people have. Obviously, the nicer the prospect and the better the attitude, the easier it is to make a nice horse for any purpose. We raise our own prospects for their trainability, good minds and easy going nature. We think novice riders should have that kind of horse because they are 'user friendly' and 'low maintenance'. Those are inherited characteristics.
> 
> Horses with 'big motors' like TBs and race-bred QHs and high strung horses also require more rider skill, but they cover a lot of ground and are really more suitable to those wanting to do endurance and long hard rides. If you wanted a vehicle to go fishing and hunting in and drive into the back-country, you would not buy a Corvette or a Ferrari would you? Those 'hot' horses make really fast mounted shooting horses and the ones with speed make barrel horses and other timed event horses. They just require a rider with greater skill.
> 
> Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:
> 
> 1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal.
> 
> 2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask) and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.
> 
> 3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.
> 
> If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me. You have to remember that whatever you let or ask him to do (like checking things out) is what you are teaching him to do. Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways.
> 
> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.
> 
> 5) Never ride straight toward something that you can go around. If a horse is afraid of a big tree stump, do not ride him straight toward it. [You are just setting his up to stop and back up. Remember, you are trying to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and setting him up to stop and back up is not doing that.] Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.
> 
> We help a lot of riders get past their fears on the trail. When you have an apprehensive rider that is possibly more fearful than the horse, you cannot expect that person to project a confident 'git-er-done' bold demeanor to the horse. So, the rider has to learn how to ride past their fears, focus on a place way past where they are and ride with determination to that place. You want to concentrate on getting to a place that is far beyond the object that the horse is trying to focus on. If the rider is looking at a 'booger', you can bet that the horse is going to be looking at it, too. Many people 'spook' worse than their horse. They are looking for scary objects down the trail before their horse is. If that is part of a rider's problem, they need to learn to ride far ahead of where they actually are.
> 
> We do not spend a lot of time trying to desensitize a horse. A lot of people find this strange. Let me tell you why we put so little faith in this exercise in futility (and why I never post on those threads). You will never be able to duplicate everything that can scare a horse. Even if you did, they would encounter this obstacle in a different place on the trail and it would be different to them anyway. You train a horse to listen to you and you train a horse to ignore anything new or scary. You train a horse to go forward when you ask -- no matter what is in front of them (one of the reasons I keep harping on 'good forward impulsion' ) and you train a horse to depend solely on you. You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse.


I would love to invite you to rainy old England and teach us your methods. They sound brilliant!


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## jaydee

Bluebird said:


> IT makes interesting reading and some of what you say makes absolute sense. The problem that we have in England is that our horses have to have 'road sense'. We have to ride them in traffic sometimes with double decker buses and large lorries passing within a few feet of them. If we get in trouble, we can't ride them through it as there is nowhere to go so we have to do 'de-sensitisation'. Although I know what you are saying about spooky horses, de-sensitising DOES work too but it really depends on what you are using the horse for. Wish we had 'trail rides' and didn't need to do any road work at all, ever! You guys are so lucky to have all that open space.


 I lived my whole life in the UK until 5 years ago and I can honestly say that I never de-sensitised my horses at all, From day one they were exposed to as much noise and general goings on as possible. I never made a single effort to flap anything in their face or bang something by them because these are normal events and noises, you throw a saddle pad or blanket over them, wipe them over with a cloth, take your jacket off and one, things get dropped and make a noise. If you make a big fuss of a reaction then they think it was justified. The more you tip toe around a horse the more nervous you make it. Most mistakes with traffic happen because someone thinks they are a great enough rider to take a young horse out on its own for the first time instead of having a good solid buddy it can watch & learn from. Some one told me that I needed to 'sack my horse out' to tarps as its not something we do in the UK and this is the result - and this mare is a real hottie to ride but she's never been trained to believe that the world is a scarey place. Its better to build a foundation on real trust rather than force an issue


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## Bluebird

jaydee said:


> I lived my whole life in the UK until 5 years ago and I can honestly say that I never de-sensitised my horses at all, From day one they were exposed to as much noise and general goings on as possible. I never made a single effort to flap anything in their face or bang something by them because these are normal events and noises, you throw a saddle pad or blanket over them, wipe them over with a cloth, take your jacket off and one, things get dropped and make a noise. If you make a big fuss of a reaction then they think it was justified. The more you tip toe around a horse the more nervous you make it. Most mistakes with traffic happen because someone thinks they are a great enough rider to take a young horse out on its own for the first time instead of having a good solid buddy it can watch & learn from. Some one told me that I needed to 'sack my horse out' to tarps as its not something we do in the UK and this is the result - and this mare is a real hottie to ride but she's never been trained to believe that the world is a scarey place. Its better to build a foundation on real trust rather than force an issue


It sounds like you desensitised your horses by exposing them to bangs etc. Desensitising doesn't mean being soft and gentle..LOL. I desensitised my Clydies by putting them in a field right next door to a heavy plant workshop and a busy motorway.


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## Darrin

I prefer to get my horse to trust in me totally than desensistizing them. If my horst trusts me than they'll follow my lead no matter how disturbing the situation is to them. By following my lead they then become desinsitized. Same thing? Yes but a different approach.


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## jaydee

Bluebird said:


> It sounds like you desensitised your horses by exposing them to bangs etc. Desensitising doesn't mean being soft and gentle..LOL. I desensitised my Clydies by putting them in a field right next door to a heavy plant workshop and a busy motorway.


 I think I dislike the term desensitise as it implies someone making a positive move to get horses used to things rather than allowing it to happen on a normal day to day basis. All of these words - desensitise, sacking out, imprinting foals - are just new ways of describing what people have done for years - they got horses used to stuff.
I never deliberately expose my horses to anything - its just normal goings on in a barn or around the yard.
If you rely on getting your horse used to for eg - a flapping plastic bag by waving one around its face odds on it will still spook at a plastic bag flapping in the hedge or blowing down the road. If you use trust as the biggest part of your training it will reduce the scarey bag lets run away from it' into no more than a bounce on the spot


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## Bluebird

jaydee said:


> I think I dislike the term desensitise as it implies someone making a positive move to get horses used to things rather than allowing it to happen on a normal day to day basis. All of these words - desensitise, sacking out, imprinting foals - are just new ways of describing what people have done for years - they got horses used to stuff.
> I never deliberately expose my horses to anything - its just normal goings on in a barn or around the yard.
> If you rely on getting your horse used to for eg - a flapping plastic bag by waving one around its face odds on it will still spook at a plastic bag flapping in the hedge or blowing down the road. If you use trust as the biggest part of your training it will reduce the scarey bag lets run away from it' into no more than a bounce on the spot


Trouble is, in the UK we don't have very many trail rides and we have no choice but to ride our horses along roads. I do hear what you are saying but on english country roads (as you should know), a horse not used to traffic which then spooks, no matter how much he trusts you, can be deadly. Also our police forces use horses for crowd control and the army for ceremonial duties. Again, a horse who 'spooks' under these circumstances is death on 4 legs - more human death than its own. So the police and army training takes horses into an indoor school where they are 'exposed' to brass bands, crowds throwing missiles, fire, water sprays and loud bangs (we have bombs go off in england still!) Both methods have their merits but we are different countries with different landscapes and different amounts of space. We also, in some cases, have very different expectations of our horses but the main thing is, no matter which methods work for each of us, our priority is exactly the same, safety for our precious horses and safety for us. The 'trail horse' method would just not work over here unless you are going to ride your horse on nothing but traffic free routes for the rest of its life. In the UK virtually impossible unless you live on Sark or the Outer Hebrides.


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## Bluebird

Darrin said:


> I prefer to get my horse to trust in me totally than desensistizing them. If my horst trusts me than they'll follow my lead no matter how disturbing the situation is to them. By following my lead they then become desinsitized. Same thing? Yes but a different approach.


This is fantastic when you have wonderful long trails where your horse won't be exposed to traffic, crowds of people, brass bands and the occasional bomb going off. We in the UK literally have to 'bombproof' our horses and this is done by exposure. We just can't take the risk of 'letting things happen' and riding through it. I don't think even your horses, no matter how much they trust you would not spook at some of the things we face over the pond. Desensitising really is the safest method for us. It would be great experience for some of you trail riders to come and have a go at riding in England, a real eye opener! (and I mean that in a very friendly way) I would also love to try out my Clydesdales on your long trails with no traffic and I could see your methods of 'riding through it' work very well under these circumstances. I think we'd love it.


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## Darrin

Bluebird said:


> This is fantastic when you have wonderful long trails where your horse won't be exposed to traffic, crowds of people, brass bands and the occasional bomb going off. We in the UK literally have to 'bombproof' our horses and this is done by exposure. We just can't take the risk of 'letting things happen' and riding through it. I don't think even your horses, no matter how much they trust you would not spook at some of the things we face over the pond. Desensitising really is the safest method for us. It would be great experience for some of you trail riders to come and have a go at riding in England, a real eye opener! (and I mean that in a very friendly way) I would also love to try out my Clydesdales on your long trails with no traffic and I could see your methods of 'riding through it' work very well under these circumstances. I think we'd love it.


I don't like riding along roads but have had to at times, my horses are not bothered by the traffic.


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## bsms

Desensitizing is NOT about creating a laundry list of things a horse is used to. Done right, it is used to teach a spooky horse that A) fear doesn't mean you bolt, B) you can calm down quickly after getting scared, and C) if you are nervous, look to your rider. It should be about getting a horse who doesn't trust human judgment to start trusting human judgment.

Not all horses need it. If they have always had trustworthy humans around, they probably don't. But if they have had humans hurt them or act irrationally (from a horse's point of view) around them, then it can do wonders. It requires someone who is good at reading a horse, so it is not something you can learn by reading a book or watching a DVD,

My Appy had holes spurred thru his sides, and he still has a big scar on one side. He was afraid of people, very afraid of cowboy hats, and terrified of lariats - as it 'break thru a corral to get away' terrified. Densensitizing by a pro took 4 weeks, but turned returned him to the horse he was before being abused.

My problem with desensitizing is that, done wrong, it convinces a horse that humans are borderline psychotic and NOT to be trusted. And I think most books and DVDs set folks up to do it wrong. If you are sensitive enough to a horse's body language, you probably will be successful at gaining the horse's trust without watching a video. If you are not good at reading a horse, then following a 60 minute training video can lead to disaster.

Happily, most horses are forgiving souls. My Arabian mare is not so forgiving. She WANTS to trust humans, but she quickly decides who is trustworthy and who is not. If you are not, she will assume she needs to take control - and that is dangerous. As we work on trail riding without other horses, I have to be sensitive to her so I can push her beyond her comfort zone, but not so far that she becomes frightened. And with each successful outing, she places a little more trust in me and gives up a little more of her internal fears.


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## wild_spot

Bluebird, I'm not in England, I'm In Australia, but we live in a city and ride our horses along highways and city roads, around shopping malls and public walkways, through industrial areas...

I don't desensitize my horses. If I think there will be an issue I make sure we have a companion on a steady horse and we just ride through it. We ride along the grass strip with two lanes of traffic either side. I've been standing on the concrete median strip and had a bus pull up in front of my boys nose! 

It is possible to have your horses quiet in those kind of situations without desensitizing beforehand. It's jut a different method and both are valid and both work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluebird

wild_spot said:


> Bluebird, I'm not in England, I'm In Australia, but we live in a city and ride our horses along highways and city roads, around shopping malls and public walkways, through industrial areas...
> 
> I don't desensitize my horses. If I think there will be an issue I make sure we have a companion on a steady horse and we just ride through it. We ride along the grass strip with two lanes of traffic either side. I've been standing on the concrete median strip and had a bus pull up in front of my boys nose!
> 
> It is possible to have your horses quiet in those kind of situations without desensitizing beforehand. It's jut a different method and both are valid and both work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I thought you were from Engalnd. Australia space and set up is very similar to USA but with far fewer people LOL. We just couldn't do what you do with your trail horses in England. England's big towns are too built up and too much traffic, our roads are far too narrow and tend to be bordered by thick hedges and/or trees and dare I say, barbed wire fencing! We cannot 'ride through' scary stuff because there is literally nowhere to go with the horse to get him out of danger. You go forward...meet big truck on the other side...you go backwards...build up of traffic waiting to pass you...you go sideways...you end up with your horse down a ditch or caught in barbed wire, probably with you underneath the horse. Trail riding methods sound as if they work great in a particular landscape but not in overcrowded england. We still have to 'bombproof' our horses and the only way to do this is by exposure to what we consider the main 'scary' things. In saying that, we can't cover everything and at times it is about controlling the horse and trust but not to the extent you do it in the USA and Australia.
Have a look at this video of a 'spooked horse' riding down an 'English Trail'. Rider actually recovers things well but it may help everyone understand what he have to deal with in England LOL


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## Clava

Bluebird said:


> Sorry I thought you were from Engalnd. Australia space and set up is very similar to USA but with far fewer people LOL. We just couldn't do what you do with your trail horses in England. England's big towns are too built up and too much traffic, our roads are far too narrow and tend to be bordered by thick hedges and/or trees and dare I say, barbed wire fencing! We cannot 'ride through' scary stuff because there is literally nowhere to go with the horse to get him out of danger. You go forward...meet big truck on the other side...you go backwards...build up of traffic waiting to pass you...you go sideways...you end up with your horse down a ditch or caught in barbed wire, probably with you underneath the horse. Trail riding methods sound as if they work great in a particular landscape but not in overcrowded england. We still have to 'bombproof' our horses and the only way to do this is by exposure to what we consider the main 'scary' things. In saying that, we can't cover everything and at times it is about controlling the horse and trust but not to the extent you do it in the USA and Australia.
> Have a look at this video of a 'spooked horse' riding down an 'English Trail'. Rider actually recovers things well but it may help everyone understand what he have to deal with in England LOL
> Spooked Horse - YouTube


Yes exactly. All our horses are used to being passed by double deckers buses and milk tankers (and I live in the country!), but it is the freak pheasant flying out that catches them unawares (makes me jump too). The only way forward is to keep takingthem out until most things are accepted but be ready for that rubbish sack or traffic sign that wasn't there last time we went past:lol:


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## Bluebird

Clava said:


> Yes exactly. All our horses are used to being passed by double deckers buses and milk tankers (and I live in the country!), but it is the freak pheasant flying out that catches them unawares (makes me jump too). The only way forward is to keep takingthem out until most things are accepted but be ready for that rubbish sack or traffic sign that wasn't there last time we went past:lol:


I think the guy filming is on a motorbike and it was the sound of the engine which initially caused the horse to spook. The driver on the other side of the road slowed down but didn't stop and continued forward until he decided for safety to stop. Good that the motor cycle turned the engine off eventually too! Horse then calmed down and was got under control. Horse obviously trusted the rider but the horse was also 'desensitised' to traffic. I think it would have been a totally different story if the horse was a first timer. Would be interested to know how you could make a horse 'ride through' a situation like this and remain totally safe not just to itself and rider but also to other road users...LOL


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## bsms

I know that feeling. Narrow dirt road. Cactus on either side. 500 lb green insect (aka dirt bike rider) coming at us. Happily, the dirt bike rider responded to the "OMG Crouch" and "Jump left, right, left, right!" by killing his engine. I asked him to say something. Once Mia heard a human voice, she sighed & relaxed.


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## Bluebird

Looks like heaven, even with the cacti and the big insects! Much better than thorny hedges, barbed wire, ditches and 20 tonne trucks. MY horses and me would love some of this! You're so lucky.


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## bsms

I was stationed at RAF Upper Heyford in the late 80s/early 90s. Beautiful country. Oxford, Warwick Castle, trips to Wales and Yorkshire...but pretty difficult for riding, it looked to me. On a "two lane road", I once lost both mirrors - to a tree on one side and a lorry on the other! Lost the driver's window too, since I was mainly trying to avoid the lorry that took out the passenger mirror.

My home for 3.5 years:


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## Bluebird

Thought you may like to see how we use our horses at times in the UK. These are the ones we 'desensitise'. Can you imagine trying this out for the first time and riding through it on an inexperienced horse? I htink my point is that where you have the open space to get a horse to trust you and 'ride through it' then it works brilliantly. However if you are a horse faced with this on ocassions, desensitising also works. That is not to say that we make a horse 'numb', we still let it think for itself. Not a pleasant video and please may I say that this is a minority section of thugs. This is not your usual Brit. Fantastic police horses though.


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## Bluebird

*Police Horses on Duty in the UK. Densitised!*

Thought you may like to see how we use our horses at times in the UK. These are the ones we 'desensitise'. Can you imagine trying this out for the first time and riding through it on an inexperienced horse? I htink my point is that where you have the open space to get a horse to trust you and 'ride through it' then it works brilliantly. However if you are a horse faced with this on ocassions, desensitising also works. That is not to say that we make a horse 'numb', we still let it think for itself. Not a pleasant video and please may I say that this is a minority section of thugs. This is not your usual Brit. Fantastic police horses though.


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## Bluebird

bsms said:


> I was stationed at RAF Upper Heyford in the late 80s/early 90s. Beautiful country. Oxford, Warwick Castle, trips to Wales and Yorkshire...but pretty difficult for riding, it looked to me. On a "two lane road", I once lost both mirrors - to a tree on one side and a lorry on the other! Lost the driver's window too, since I was mainly trying to avoid the lorry that took out the passenger mirror.
> 
> My home for 3.5 years:


Hope the rear view mirrors weren't on your horse...LOL


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## wild_spot

I'm sorry, but you just don't know where I ride my horse. I've been on my horse when a semi has gone past less than half a metre away with a massive ditch on the other side with nowhere to go - Yes my horse spooked, but because I 'ride though' things, I was able to keep enough control of his body to keep him pointed and moving in the right direction so we where fine. 

We don't have hedges like you but we certainly have roads bordered by barbed wire, tiny grass verges in the middle of highways, concrete footpaths right nest to roads with suburban fences on the other side. 

One situation we regularly face is traffic on one side and someones massive dog in their backyard going nuts behind the fence on the other side. Once again the horse may spook but we maintain enough body control to keep them travelling on the same line.

We ride footpaths across bridges that have traffic on one side and a drop down into a creek on the other.

Foot bridges across creeks that are barely wide enough for one horse to cross.

Causeways that flood and have only a metre or so wide section you can cross and if you deviate you will be washed away. 

*

I do also ride in lovely open spaces, i'm lucky enough to have the best of both worlds, living on the edge of a city. But please don't tell me you know everything my horses have to deal with when you aren't here and don't see where we ride. Riding in the CBD of the nations capital certainly provides some very scary and high stress situations for a horse.


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## Bluebird

wild_spot said:


> I'm sorry, but you just don't know where I ride my horse. I've been on my horse when a semi has gone past less than half a metre away with a massive ditch on the other side with nowhere to go - Yes my horse spooked, but because I 'ride though' things, I was able to keep enough control of his body to keep him pointed and moving in the right direction so we where fine.
> 
> We don't have hedges like you but we certainly have roads bordered by barbed wire, tiny grass verges in the middle of highways, concrete footpaths right nest to roads with suburban fences on the other side.
> 
> One situation we regularly face is traffic on one side and someones massive dog in their backyard going nuts behind the fence on the other side. Once again the horse may spook but we maintain enough body control to keep them travelling on the same line.
> 
> We ride footpaths across bridges that have traffic on one side and a drop down into a creek on the other.
> 
> Foot bridges across creeks that are barely wide enough for one horse to cross.
> 
> Causeways that flood and have only a metre or so wide section you can cross and if you deviate you will be washed away.
> 
> *
> 
> I do also ride in lovely open spaces, i'm lucky enough to have the best of both worlds, living on the edge of a city. But please don't tell me you know everything my horses have to deal with when you aren't here and don't see where we ride. Riding in the CBD of the nations capital certainly provides some very scary and high stress situations for a horse.


I haven't said I know everything about where you live or everything about Australia either. All I have been doing is making comparisons about 'trail' methods of horse training versus 'desensitisation'similar to the people who think their way is always the 'right way'. I am just showing that there are different methods. It is not my intention to offend anyone or give someone the hump. Different countries have different sitautions to expose their horse to


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## wild_spot

> Thought you may like to see how we use our horses at times in the UK. These are the ones we 'desensitise'. Can you imagine trying this out for the first time and riding through it on an inexperienced horse?


Firstly, I only watched the first few minutes so I don't know what else happened.

Secondly, we are not talking about police horses here, but trail horses. Of course I agree that some degree of prior training is required, and the police choose to use desensitizing, which I have never said doesn't work. It is a perfectly effective training method.

Thirdly, I would not take an 'inexperienced horse' in a situation like this, it would be a recipe for disaster. They may not have been in this exact situation before, but I would want my horse to have been in plenty of scary situations before and learnt to trust my judgement when scared. 

Fourth, I honestly believe I could take my gelding in a situation like that and still have control. Sure he would be looking around, maybe jogging with the exitement, but that would be about it. The bangs wouldn't be a huge deal as I crack a stockwhip off my horses. The screaming is about the same as he dealt with when he competed in world mounted games here a few years ago. 

*Shrugs* Not purposefully desensitizing is not wrong. It is a different way of doing things that also works. None of us (I think!) have said that what you do is wrong, or doesn't work. How can you say that about our method when you obviously don't use it?


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## wild_spot

> Different countries have different sitautions to expose their horse to


Of course they do! I have just gotten back home after working on a cattle station in the Pilbara for six months. The horses there have to deal with a helicopter coming in to about 2 metres above their heads and stirring up the dust to get the cattle yarded up, and bull buggies smashing tress down right in front of them chasing feral cattle, and Iron Ore trains that are kilometres long roaring down the tracks in front of them.

They deal with completely different situations than my horses here at home. Yet no matter the situation, generally good training will get the same results if it is done properly. Whether that be desensitizing, or 'riding through' (For lack of a better term).


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## jaydee

Obviously people have different ways of doing things and I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with where you live or where you ride. If it works for you then thats good.
I only moved to the US 5 years ago and it was only when I came here and became more aware of Clinton Anderson & Parelli that I even heard of the word desensitise as a means of getting a horse used to things. I've actually asked a few of my horsey friends over there today if they are familiar with the term or use this method of training but they don't - though one has a neighbour who's a Parelli fan and she is always using the word though rarely ventures out of her menage. I'm sure it might be something thats caught on over there in more recent years but its not something I grew up with and we bred and broke our own horses, broke horses for other people and always had to ride on busy roads. 
The police are very selective about the horses they buy and choose for temperament. I've attached a couple of pics of a horse we bred and sold to the police. On the one he is 2yrs old, I used to show him 'in hand', there was a rifle range near this ground shooting all day and as you can see he was totally unconcerned. It was this attitude that made him apealing to the police. We watched him in several of his training sessions and he never even flinched or looked at anything even first time around. He was reverse champion one year and would have won but he gave the camel a 'look' before he walked past it. His rider said it was more out of disgust. Dont get many camels in the UK!!! Pic with him in the middle is from a newspaper cutting so not great


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## Charley horse

Thank you so much for the info its very helpful!


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## imhispunkin

Great post and very informational for me, I'm just now learning


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## Oxzu

Nice info.. I've had my nice encounters trying to train my horses


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## shahidsaif

Thanks so much. Now i am going England to buy new horse. And learn the new tip that how Tran the new hoers.


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## moking

My guy is such a siss.


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## jannette

Bluebird said:


> IT makes interesting reading and some of what you say makes absolute sense. The problem that we have in England is that our horses have to have 'road sense'. We have to ride them in traffic sometimes with double decker buses and large lorries passing within a few feet of them. If we get in trouble, we can't ride them through it as there is nowhere to go so we have to do 'de-sensitisation'. Although I know what you are saying about spooky horses, de-sensitising DOES work too but it really depends on what you are using the horse for. Wish we had 'trail rides' and didn't need to do any road work at all, ever! You guys are so lucky to have all that open space.


 
LOL i live in a rural area with lots of mountain riding within 15 min drive...and we love it  however we have deer, elk and the occasional lions & tigers & bears oh my :wink:...that like to pop out of the brush...conditioning for where u ride i think is very important so at least the expected isnt a disaster lol


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## Mercy

I like this! I am looking for a horse, but when I get one, I will definitely try training my horse with this! There is a lake with several nice trails nearby that I will practice on.


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## Bluebird

wild_spot said:


> Firstly, I only watched the first few minutes so I don't know what else happened.
> 
> Secondly, we are not talking about police horses here, but trail horses. Of course I agree that some degree of prior training is required, and the police choose to use desensitizing, which I have never said doesn't work. It is a perfectly effective training method.
> 
> Thirdly, I would not take an 'inexperienced horse' in a situation like this, it would be a recipe for disaster. They may not have been in this exact situation before, but I would want my horse to have been in plenty of scary situations before and learnt to trust my judgement when scared.
> 
> Fourth, I honestly believe I could take my gelding in a situation like that and still have control. Sure he would be looking around, maybe jogging with the exitement, but that would be about it. The bangs wouldn't be a huge deal as I crack a stockwhip off my horses. The screaming is about the same as he dealt with when he competed in world mounted games here a few years ago.
> 
> *Shrugs* Not purposefully desensitizing is not wrong. It is a different way of doing things that also works. None of us (I think!) have said that what you do is wrong, or doesn't work. How can you say that about our method when you obviously don't use it?


I have not said your method is wrong. You need to read the posts again and try and understand that I am making comparisons and taking into account other people's comments. Trail training is not wrong and neither is desenitisation. People do different things with their horses and it is about the methods which work best for your environment, your horse and what you face as you ride your horse wherever you ride it. The best person to judge what is safe for them and their horse is the person riding it. You just need to accept that in the big wide world, people have different view points and different opinions as well as different methods of what they do with their horses. Everyone is entitled to make a comment but it doesn't mean they are being disrespectful to anyone else.


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## wild_spot

> You just need to accept that in the big wide world, people have different view points and different opinions as well as different methods of what they do with their horses.


I accepted this a long, long time ago! I'm a mish-mash rider living and working within a horse area that is very heavily Olympic-discipline focussed/biased. There are very few people around me that ride/train/believe the way that I do, yet I am good friends with many of them and am quite well known in my area. I instruct kids through pony club who do completely different disciplines than i do yet I work with the way they ride and what their goals are. 

I have zero issue with desensitizing. I did however have an issue with you implying that other methods 'won't work' in England due to the space issue. That is all I was trying to address. They may not be the most appropriate way for every rider or every horse, but nearly any method when used by someone who knows what they are doing will work in most situations.


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## Cherie

Jannette -- Where have you ridden that you had to look out for tigers?

I lived near and rode in the most rugged wilderness areas in the western Colorado mountains (locally called 'Switzerland of America') and we had the deer, elk and black bear and an occasional cougar, bighorn sheep and mountain goat, but tigers were half a world away.

One time, I did come around a sharp turn in a narrow trail on the east fork of the Cimarron River above the Silver Jack Mine and I ran face to face into a 10 or 12 point bull elk with several cows. I stopped about 6 feet from the bull elk. He was bigger than the little 3 year old Purebred Arabian gelding I was riding.

The elk shook his head a couple of times, turned around (thankfully) and left. But, elk were expected -- tigers -- not so much.


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## Bluebird

wild_spot said:


> I accepted this a long, long time ago! I'm a mish-mash rider living and working within a horse area that is very heavily Olympic-discipline focussed/biased. There are very few people around me that ride/train/believe the way that I do, yet I am good friends with many of them and am quite well known in my area. I instruct kids through pony club who do completely different disciplines than i do yet I work with the way they ride and what their goals are.
> 
> I have zero issue with desensitizing. I did however have an issue with you implying that other methods 'won't work' in England due to the space issue. That is all I was trying to address. They may not be the most appropriate way for every rider or every horse, but nearly any method when used by someone who knows what they are doing will work in most situations.


You obviously have issues with a lot of things. Lets leave it there.


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## Rico1BadDog

I had always been told to let the horse look and examine the object till they got over it, so was doing that for a long time, and what do you know, there is always something for them to stop and "see". Recently a trainer friend of mine told me not to do that, to just ride past it and don't let them fixate on it. It seemed very odd and completely opposite of what I had always been told. Your explanation of this makes me understand why now. It is great fun learning things that will make such a difference in the enjoyment and confidence out on the trail. Thanks for posting that.


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## TruCharm

I do like this :3 
I do have a thoroughbred mare, luckily she isn't too bad at being worried and spooky. Though she does have her moments I will start applying these things to her trail work training ^^


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## Freelance Cowgirl

I am so glad I found this! I only trail ride except for showing in the 4H fair, which I am currently in my last year. I've only had horses for 2 years. My first was a crazy Appaloosa given to me for free because she was going to go to the sale barns and they knew she would go to a good home. I'll just say that she was not a good horse to start out on. I of course still have her, and I love to her absolute pieces. I rarely ride her though. My mom or any men I ride with who need a horse (they have the strength to make her do what is needed) are the ones to normally do that. And it's weird, I refuse to ride her in a saddle. I will only ride her bareback. But anyway, last year at the end of summer I rescued a yearling. Terrible, horendous shape. My mom didn't tell me but while I was a school (2 different times), she thought the poor girl was going to die.

The original owners (monsters) told us she was 2, but when she started declining in health the vet told us during a check up that she had just then turned 2, after having her for about half a year. This was at the end of spring this year. Turns out she was just losing her teeth and that's how he knew. So we ended up with a very sick baby girl. Got her back up to health again pretty fast, though. My mom and mentor told me it was time to start riding her when she finally got strong enough, so I did. And trust me I was not a heavy load I only weight 95 pounds! Over the summer (within 2 months) I had her trained as a green trail horse.

No heavy riding, just until they said she'd had enough for a day. I'm proud because I did it myself, even if my "trainer" (I usually just say mentor!) told me what to do. No one else has ever ridden my filly. My mom and her have only ever longed her. So then I showed her in the fair, which I really don't enjoy, but she blew everyone out of the water in the trail class. That definitely made me smile, seeing how she was by far the youngest horse at the show.

Then my mom and I went on a charity ride in October. 14 mile round trip, which was new to me and my baby girl. She did splendidly, for only being 2 and never having done anything that big before. The next day on trails in a heavily wooden area of nothing but hills was amazing too. I'm just so proud of her that I could cry. The fact that I was blessed enough to have such an amazing horse at such a young age makes me feel wonderful.

What I was getting at by typing this mini story is that on this website, any time I mention my horse's age, I get a lot of grief over it. Some of the people that have scolded me for riding a 2 year old have really made me feel bad. At one point I was scared to get on her because everyone had me thinking I was going to cause permanent damage to her, even though my vet gave me the 'OK'. But after reading this it gave me some new confidence for next year (I've put up the saddle for the winter). Especially since by the beginning of summer she will be 3, I feel that everyone else can kiss my filly's pretty little flanks!

I *DO NOT* ride my horse into the ground. She has an amazing home, gets everything she needs, and probably more. I love her to absolute pieces and if anything were to happen to her I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I sometimes wonder why people think I would hurt her after saving her life and taking the painstaking time and work to bring her off the verge of death. I take amazing care of her and my Appaloosa, and Lily (my filly) is the best horse I could have ever asked for. Next year is going to be the start of some serious training. I'm wanting to buy an Australian saddle because my western saddles are just lacking. I feel unsafe and uncomfortable, and *know* that I'm sitting right and that they fit the horses. They're just not right for me.

So Cherie, I wanted to thank you for making me feel better about riding a 2 year old. From now on when I get grief over the age of my horse and people saying that there's no way she's trained very well, I'm going to link them to this post and think "Na-na-na-na boo-boo!". You really don't know how good reading this made me feel about myself and my horse. And I'm going to apply these techniques more firmly next year than I did this year for sure. Lily is going to be the most amazing horse a lot of people around here have ever seen. I can feel it in my bones.

Thank you so much for this thread, Cherie!


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## Beatrice9

tinyliny said:


> I know that you are absolutley right, and I wish I could do what you said about riding forward when the horse starts to get worried. I know that this is what would help Mac when he gets worried on the trail (which he worries a lot, though he isn't so much spooky as worried).
> 
> What is holding me back is that he has got me off 5 times by making incredibly sudden and unexpected spins. I'll be going along and thinking it's all going swimmingly and the next thing I know, he has kind of dropped out from under me as he bounced off his planted front legs and wheels, almost always to the right. Well, I get thrown forward and he spins out from under me. He's a bit downhill in build to begin with and if I am trotting and posting and he catches me on the up part, I am toast. At the canter he's done it and nearly pitched me. At the walk I can usually ride it out. And he's spun MANY times that were near dumpers for me but I stayed put.
> 
> SO, though I know I need to push him harder and faster forward, I find I just don't have the faith that he will stay going forward and not spin on me so fast that I'll hit the dirt , , again. (and I am not so young, either).
> 
> This is the only thing that I feel is't right between he and I . And we have worked on riding past scary things a lot and at the walk, he seems to be willing to be lead by me, but I just cannot make my mind and body commit, really committ to FORWARD! like you say is required. I am not sure if I can block out the apprehension and go.
> 
> not much you can do about that where you are, but just thought I'd put that out there.


My horse does the SAME thing. Between me and my husband, I'm the only one that can ride it out. My husband asks me how I do it, and I can't even answer because I have NO IDEA how I manage to stay on! It's very scary for me!


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## atomicfruit

Cherie said:


> Thank you Wild Spot and Sahara and the others that actually understand and have ridden a good trail horse or a good ranch horse. A good well-trained saddle horse is not a 'dead-head'. I hate dead-heads -- except that I keep a couple around that I can put total dummies on and I know they will baby-sit even the dumbest rider that is doing everything wrong despite three people telling them not to.
> 
> Don't tell me that a horse is a dead-head just because he does not give you resistance and have his own agenda. Don't tell me a horse that you can run out after a steer that needs doctoring and rope and doctor him all by yourself (with the help of your horse, of course), is a dead-head. Don't tell me that a horse that carries a complete stranger up above timber-line in a place so steep and rough that a person would be hard-put to walk, is a dead-head. You get in places like that, you don't need a horse that wants to stop and sniff around or turn around to look or stuff.
> 
> I think that the people that actually think a horse loses its personality and its 'trained out of them' {choke} have just never ridden a good, well-mannered trail horse or a good ranch horse in their entire lives. How in the world can resistance and arguing be mistaken for personality?
> 
> I have never seen a well-trained trail horse or ranch horse stumble over a snake or anything else. But I can tell you that when I have a well-trained horse stop dead in his tracks, I know there is a real serious concern and I am smart enough to not force him forward. I KNOW there is something there. I never have to wonder if he is just looking or sniffing or if there is really a problem.
> 
> I had that exact thing happen about 5 years ago. I had a really solid ranch horse bow up his neck, stop and back up a step. I told my husband, who behind me, to help me see what was wrong because I knew something was wrong. About that time a Western Diamondback that was over 7 feet long and bigger around than my 200# husband's forearm raised up above 3 foot tall grass and started to rattle. His head was over 3 inches wide. He was the biggest Rattlesnake I have ever seen. My horse was probably 2 feet from his head when he stopped.
> 
> So no! A well-broke horse does not lose its personality or character. I just know there are an awful lot of people that have never ridden one.


Hi Cherie,
I know I'm late on responding. I'm a new member and just found your post. I loved what you wrote. You put everything into words that I have been doing with my horses. I recently sold a ranch horse that was the farthest thing from "dead".. but he was extremely respectful, got down to business and was mostly unflappable in every situation and on any terrain. He trusted me on everything and I rode him with the mentality you described in your original post. He had a job and he got it done. I sold him to buy a 2 yr old. Starting all over, but I'll ride the new one the same way. :wink:


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## jannette

Cherie said:


> Jannette -- Where have you ridden that you had to look out for tigers?
> 
> I lived near and rode in the most rugged wilderness areas in the western Colorado mountains (locally called 'Switzerland of America') and we had the deer, elk and black bear and an occasional cougar, bighorn sheep and mountain goat, but tigers were half a world away.
> 
> One time, I did come around a sharp turn in a narrow trail on the east fork of the Cimarron River above the Silver Jack Mine and I ran face to face into a 10 or 12 point bull elk with several cows. I stopped about 6 feet from the bull elk. He was bigger than the little 3 year old Purebred Arabian gelding I was riding.
> 
> The elk shook his head a couple of times, turned around (thankfully) and left. But, elk were expected -- tigers -- not so much.


 
lol i was just making a funny  we have cougars (mt. lions) bears, wolves, dear, elk, ect.ect we are in NE Oregon so besides tigers you are likely to encounter about any wild life native to us


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## Wheatermay

Rico1BadDog said:


> I had always been told to let the horse look and examine the object till they got over it, so was doing that for a long time, and what do you know, there is always something for them to stop and "see". Recently a trainer friend of mine told me not to do that, to just ride past it and don't let them fixate on it. It seemed very odd and completely opposite of what I had always been told. Your explanation of this makes me understand why now. It is great fun learning things that will make such a difference in the enjoyment and confidence out on the trail. Thanks for posting that.


GREAT WORDING! LOL... I didnt realize I was doing the same. I did it with my mare when I started her, and would let her stop and look, BUT after so many stops I started getting irritated and just pull her head back and make her go! And I never had another problem once I did it. I didnt realize that until now! And I am trying to get miles on my gelding who is green and he sees so much he MUST stop to see. He's like a dog! He'll want to go in someones yard to check out their swingset?!?! lol.... 

BUT I totally agree and NOW I understand! Thanks for pointing this out and explaining!


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## Rockabillyjen33

It seems like forever ago when I posted on this thread and a lot has changed since! I now have a rising 9 year old Clydesdale gelding. When I bought him he came to me totally not spooky - we lead groups down trails and if something made him jump he barely twitched. Since he was new, however, I felt that he might need to look around at things and let him stop and look when he wanted to. Guess what? Within a week or 2 he was spooking at things and became timid! He was ready to turn and run at nothing and looking for things to eat him! Why? Because I put his safety in HIS care instead of mine. He was looking for danger and I was saying "I don't know dude! IS it ok?? You tell me" I felt pretty stupid for letting that happen it just didn't make sense to my human mind but it does now and he is back to confident and not any spookier than any other good horse. I don't put up with any nonsense, if I say go then GO, if I'm not worried then he isn't either.


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## Wheatermay

Rockabillyjen33 said:


> It seems like forever ago when I posted on this thread and a lot has changed since! I now have a rising 9 year old Clydesdale gelding. When I bought him he came to me totally not spooky - we lead groups down trails and if something made him jump he barely twitched. Since he was new, however, I felt that he might need to look around at things and let him stop and look when he wanted to. Guess what? Within a week or 2 he was spooking at things and became timid! He was ready to turn and run at nothing and looking for things to eat him! Why? Because I put his safety in HIS care instead of mine. He was looking for danger and I was saying "I don't know dude! IS it ok?? You tell me" I felt pretty stupid for letting that happen it just didn't make sense to my human mind but it does now and he is back to confident and not any spookier than any other good horse. I don't put up with any nonsense, if I say go then GO, if I'm not worried then he isn't either.


Thanks for your experience! It shows how hard it is for our human brain to comprehend a horses sometimes!


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## Rockabillyjen33

I think if your green colt is simply curious to see things and confident, not timid, then there's no harm in letting him check things out - as long as you don't allow him to just head for things on his own idea without you telling him to. LOL I was thinking about how horses work in a herd yesterday - I took my Clydesdale out solo for a long trail ride - and if a horse in the herd were to act silly about something the herd was going by - what would the lead mare do? Get mad and nip that horse into going right by and ignoring whatever it was looking at. So when Whiskey would start to look at something I'd just squeeze and cluck and get him going right by. If he really insisted on looking (only did that once) I stopped him and had him yield his head repeatedly to get his mind back on work at hand and then we went on no problem. I don't mind if he looks as long as he doesn't fixate.


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## Dustbunny

I'm glad this thread popped up again. I am printing out Cherie's original instructions. I want them handy.
Last year I bought a 14 year old green Paint mare. Not what I set out to buy but after a lot of looking I knew immediately this was the one I wanted. She's calm and mellow and has not been a disappointment. And she is so pleasant on the trails. I look forward to developing our partnership. It is always good to have sound information and advice handy for those situations that pop up.


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## DixieMoonshine

Cherie, I recently took my 6 year old mustang to a new trail, it was by the river and as we were walking calmly down to take a drink, 2 very large German shepherds came at us barking... his head shot straight up in the air but I assured him he was fine (as the owner was near by and called the dogs back to their boat. phew!). Then a speed boat blazed by and sent a gigantic wake onto the shore... He had never seen or heard a speed boat before, I assured him he was fine again and I kept his feet moving around in different directions as to focus on me and not the scary dangers, but the wake did him in! He started to trot away and not aknolwedge my hands, so I started to "bump" the reins and force him into a circle, reinforcing that with leg cues (kick in the shoulder), and let him run his fear out without getting anywhere. What can I do to assure that the next time we go to this trail and encounter the same scenario, he will go stand in the water and not freak out? I'll never be able to take him riding on the beach if I don't nip this in the bud.


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## Rockabillyjen33

Dixie - even though you didn't ask me I hope you don't mind my suggestion  I would take along a halter and good length lead & take your Mustang down to the water and work with him in hand down along and in the water until he is relaxed with it (head lower, licking & chewing, leg cocked or big sigh type of behavior). Hopefully you will get an obligatory speedboat and wake going along while you do. Does your Mustang know how to do a one rein stop? There are always little things along the trail that are new to our horses we can't help that, your horse actually sounds like he handled the spook pretty well in that he only trotted away and didn't bolt. If you could get him in a one rein stop you can prevent even that.


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## beachluvr

I loved this post and all the thoughts that followed. I have always been on the fence what would work best, let them stop or encourage on. I know I will lead on and give my gracie something else to think about!! It feels right to me right now!


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## Saengchwi

I also thank you for this post! Our first 'horse' was a very little pony that we trained our selves with a little help from a trainer. We wouldn't trade her for anything, and shes actually worked out quite well for us. BUT...we trained her in all the ways you say not to and the one thing I learned for certain is that when it came time to buy a full sized horse, I wanted/needed one well trained already. We got lucky with our pony but her use is very limited, both by her size and by her training. 

We got our new well trained horse and she amazed me by going exactly where you point her, no matter what...lol. Our pony has so much personality, shes such a joy to be around, and for her job shes wonderful; but she'd need your kind of training before I'd feel safe letting anyone but an experienced rider ride her off of a lead line. The difference is amazing and I enjoyed reading you're explanation of it.


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## Ellie Bramel

My horse crow hopped once when I was on her I was swinging by her reins after flying over neck. Any suggestions? She was very happy when she made this move.


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## Dustbunny

Ellie....More info. Were you on a trail? In the pasture? Did something spook her? Is she green? What was the situation?


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## stevenson

well said


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## beachluvr

my a 5 year old will do that occasionally when on the trail. i too think she is feeling good.l I now can "feel" when it is about to happen and kind of pick up on the reins to lift her head. Sometimes she does surprise me.....so any other suggestions would be great!


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## JustmeNyuma

This is an awesome thread! Thank you for all thr helpful input!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nine

I like what you've said, Cherie. I would have to add that the reason I did desensitizing with my horse was not to cover every thing we might encounter. But to show him, that when we encounter strange stuff, he can trust me. It has really helped out bond - which is soooo strong. I trust him to trust me. And he does. The desensitizing was fun for him. When I tell him we're going on an "adventure", he knows he's gonna see something new. And he is always eager. Desensitizing is just a trust building exercise. I valued them quite a lot. Plus - they're fun, social and a great way to meet more neat horse riders and potential trail parnters.


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## LostInTheWoods02114

Cherie said:


> 1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal.
> 
> 2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask) and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.
> 
> 3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.
> 
> If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me. You have to remember that whatever you let or ask him to do (like checking things out) is what you are teaching him to do. Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways.
> 
> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.
> 
> 5) Never ride straight toward something that you can go around. If a horse is afraid of a big tree stump, do not ride him straight toward it. [You are just setting his up to stop and back up. Remember, you are trying to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and setting him up to stop and back up is not doing that.] Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.
> 
> We do not spend a lot of time trying to desensitize a horse. A lot of people find this strange. Let me tell you why we put so little faith in this exercise in futility (and why I never post on those threads). You will never be able to duplicate everything that can scare a horse. Even if you did, they would encounter this obstacle in a different place on the trail and it would be different to them anyway. You train a horse to listen to you and you train a horse to ignore anything new or scary. You train a horse to go forward when you ask -- no matter what is in front of them (one of the reasons I keep harping on 'good forward impulsion' ) and you train a horse to depend solely on you. You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse.


Thank you for this. I really needed to read it. It's not how I learned but it makes so much more sense, and has given me a lot more to think about.


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## JustmeNyuma

Cherie, i just wanted to let you know that I was at a buck brannaman clinic this past weekend and he pretty much said the exact same things as you did here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mudslinger915

Great thread!!! Lots of good information! Thanks!


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## iRide Ponies

antonella said:


> greenbryefarms, it is just what I thought. you see, you worked for a year, and now he is different. you need time, patience, and confidence. then you gain trust, and you are on the other side. completely different story. with my old horse (and he was a stallion) I sometimes lost my way home and, after a while, I let the reins on his neck and said "let's go home" and he always did. but we had been together for 18 years and we knew each other perfectly. where are you, by the way?


Tried that once, on my pony who loves trails and goes quicker away from home than she does towards home. Ended up 5ks deep in the bush, totally lost.

Pony didn't want to go home. When given a choice, she went the opposite direction. Just goes to show, don't always trust your horse to take yourself home if you get lost, injured or fall off.


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## kizmet

iRide Ponies said:


> Tried that once, on my pony who loves trails and goes quicker away from home than she does towards home. Ended up 5ks deep in the bush, totally lost.
> 
> Pony didn't want to go home. When given a choice, she went the opposite direction. Just goes to show, don't always trust your horse to take yourself home if you get lost, injured or fall off.


I have never had an Arabian let me down finding home. My first home grown horse took my party back to camp on her first ride. We could not tell which way the ride had gone, so I just backtracked a little and let her choose the path. 
That ride was a little exciting, but her last ride was under my son, who hasn't a clue. She stayed with our group the whole ride, and was watching me for cues. They both amazed me, especially on a vertical climb.
I did not train her to ignore stuff. I turned her in and faced it. She has had a stand off with a vicious Pit Bull while I screamed my head off at the dog for five minutes. She wears my poncho and walks on tarps like nothing. Someday I'm going to remember to swing a rope and drag a log with her.


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## hybridmustang

Cherie said:


> It seems that every time I come to this site, there are 2 or 3 or even more questions about training a trail horse to go anywhere and everywhere the rider points its head. Since this is what we do for a living, I thought I would try to explain what it takes and how to go about it.
> 
> We have trained nothing but trail horses since we got too old and are in too poor health to train cow horses and reining horses any more. We always rode our cow horses out and they were perfect trail horses and we sold the horses that would not make competitive cow horses as trail horses for many years - about 35 or 49 years anyway. Now, that is all we can do.
> 
> It does not take age. We have had MANY 2 year olds that would go anywhere you pointed their heads. I have sold 3 year olds to novice riders that are still perfect trail horses 10 years later. [I got 2 e-mails just last week from people that bought horses 3-5 years ago and keep me up on their adventures. Both of those horses were 3 year olds. ]
> 
> 'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider, but I have not had a problem making a good trail horse out of anything. I have made good trail horses out of many spoiled horses, but that takes a lot more skill and riding ability than what many people have. Obviously, the nicer the prospect and the better the attitude, the easier it is to make a nice horse for any purpose. We raise our own prospects for their trainability, good minds and easy going nature. We think novice riders should have that kind of horse because they are 'user friendly' and 'low maintenance'. Those are inherited characteristics.
> 
> Horses with 'big motors' like TBs and race-bred QHs and high strung horses also require more rider skill, but they cover a lot of ground and are really more suitable to those wanting to do endurance and long hard rides. If you wanted a vehicle to go fishing and hunting in and drive into the back-country, you would not buy a Corvette or a Ferrari would you? Those 'hot' horses make really fast mounted shooting horses and the ones with speed make barrel horses and other timed event horses. They just require a rider with greater skill.
> 
> Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:
> 
> 1) Obedience is NEVER optional. A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal.
> 
> 2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask) and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.
> 
> 3) I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.
> 
> If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me. You have to remember that whatever you let or ask him to do (like checking things out) is what you are teaching him to do. Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways.
> 
> 4) When a horse starts to hesitate and starts to show fear, 'ride hard and fast'. Go faster, cover more ground, ride off of the trail and in the roughest footing you can find. All of these things get his attention back to his 'job' and back to you and off of whatever he thought was a big wooly booger.
> 
> 5) Never ride straight toward something that you can go around. If a horse is afraid of a big tree stump, do not ride him straight toward it. [You are just setting his up to stop and back up. Remember, you are trying to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and setting him up to stop and back up is not doing that.] Ride past it several times while taking his attention away from the stump and keeping it on you. I like to use 'leg yielding' exercises. I will ride past an object with his head bent away from the object and my leg pushing his shoulders and ribs toward the object. I watch his ear that is away from the object. I know I have his attention and respect for my leg when that ear stays 'cocked' back toward me. I will go past the object, switch my dominant rein to the one nearest the object, will reverse directions TOWARD the object (I never let him turn his tail to anything he fears) and I will leg yield back past it again using my other leg to push him (bend him) toward it. I will go back and forth again and again until he walks right on by without looking at it or veering away from it -- just goes straight on by like it isn't there.
> 
> We help a lot of riders get past their fears on the trail. When you have an apprehensive rider that is possibly more fearful than the horse, you cannot expect that person to project a confident 'git-er-done' bold demeanor to the horse. So, the rider has to learn how to ride past their fears, focus on a place way past where they are and ride with determination to that place. You want to concentrate on getting to a place that is far beyond the object that the horse is trying to focus on. If the rider is looking at a 'booger', you can bet that the horse is going to be looking at it, too. Many people 'spook' worse than their horse. They are looking for scary objects down the trail before their horse is. If that is part of a rider's problem, they need to learn to ride far ahead of where they actually are.
> 
> We do not spend a lot of time trying to desensitize a horse. A lot of people find this strange. Let me tell you why we put so little faith in this exercise in futility (and why I never post on those threads). You will never be able to duplicate everything that can scare a horse. Even if you did, they would encounter this obstacle in a different place on the trail and it would be different to them anyway. You train a horse to listen to you and you train a horse to ignore anything new or scary. You train a horse to go forward when you ask -- no matter what is in front of them (one of the reasons I keep harping on 'good forward impulsion' ) and you train a horse to depend solely on you. You make all of the decisions and they are happy to comply. The more you take the leadership role, the less they think and worry. That is how you make a good trail horse.



okay my only question is this if at some point you come across a fresh trail of cougar scent (tracks or no tracks) but you cant smell it and only the horse can and the horse starts spooking because of his instincts telling him theres a cougar ahead wouldnt the trust me and ignore everything else put the horse in danger? at what point do you listen to the horse?


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## thorson

There is alot of really good stuff here. thanks all for sharing


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## ChitChatChet

I joined simply to thank Cheri for such great information.

Last evening I went for a ride on my green horse and armed with the info Cheri had posted, had a successful ride.

I had to zig zag down the road for a mile at the beginning or so to keep Chet listening to me, otherwise he was goofy, wanted to go home, see his buddy, was sure the where monsters in tall grass along the road, it was windy etc. 

He wanted to spook and bolt but never did find anything to do so at as I wasnt looking. I had to mind over matter myself to not go scanning ahead looking for potential problems. After all you know we where just out for a great uneventful ride 

The ride ended up being 7 miles to work the goofyness out get him so he was tuned into just me and end on a positive note.

THe last time I had ridden Chet he was scared of this and that and had no confidence unless I was with him on the ground. He was a basket case. Sitting on him he was a wreck, standing next to him he was fine. This ride was totally differant, he was trusting with me on his back guiding him. There where a couple of things that caused him to tremble but he just kept the same pace doing whatever was I asked. That wouldnt have happened on the ride before, he would have bolted.

So thanks Cheri for taking the time to post "how to train a fearless trail horse." It was just the info I needed to ride enjoyably and advance both myself and Chet plus teach my dd's. I am now looking forward to many great rides on Chet


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## Cherie

Thank you 'Chet'. You made my day. I appreciate the feedback. Keep us posted on how you and Chet are coming along.
Cherie


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## G8tdh0rse

I'm looking forward to riding with you this fall and meeting you in person. Your advice is excellent, Cherie.


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## Lil Bay Boogie

*Thank you*

Wow!! Iam so glad I read this post!!! I've been doing everything wrong!!! Can't wait to try this method


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## toosexy4myspotz

I have just started cheries method with my mare and we have only had two rides so far but she has made HUGE progress in two rides. Its almost unbelievable. I tried desensitizing my mare and it made her extremely spooky. Everything was a booger. So I have sense stopped desensitzing completely. The progress my mare had made I'm two rides is incredible. Today on the trail she only spooked twice everything else she started relying on my judgement which felt great
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G8tdh0rse

I used Cherie's method on myself and my hasn't-been-ridden-in-a-while mare. When we came upon potentiatally spooky things, I told both of us it was nothing and to go on past it. I used to get anxious thinking the horse was going to act up and of course that made it worse. This time I just bulldozed through. It is a culbert, it is a burnt stump, it is a piece of trash, etc. I really felt more confident especially because it worked. Thank you Cherie.


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## flytobecat

hybridmustang said:


> okay my only question is this if at some point you come across a fresh trail of cougar scent (tracks or no tracks) but you cant smell it and only the horse can and the horse starts spooking because of his instincts telling him theres a cougar ahead wouldnt the trust me and ignore everything else put the horse in danger? at what point do you listen to the horse?


Especially, if you come across something as dangerous as a cougar you want your horse listening to you and not following it's instincts (which is probably dump you, kick anything that moves, and run like heck).

Cherie, I just got thank you. I always used to let my horse look at stuff to figure out what it was, but since I've started just riding her through things, the spooking has really quieted down.


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## z28gal

I'm slowly working my way through this thread and am loving all the advice! I wanted to add something (and I apologize if someone has mentioned something similar already, there's a lot of thread to read!). I like to build a "reset" button into all my horses. I usually like to ask them to bend their head around and touch their sides. I'll ask for one or two bends to each side, then drop the reins and let them stand quietly for a minute or two. Whenever my horse gets worked up, whether it's on the trail or in the ring, I can do this and "get her brain back". It's her cue to chill, relax and start thinking again. I like using a signal that DOESN'T require movement, in case you are ever in a tight spot on trail where circling, etc., isn't an option. It's helped tremendously on my high-strung, ADD mare as well as my 90% dead broke gelding who would occasionally just lose his mind.


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## MaximasMommy

I have a question!

I can't ride my horse yet, but I like to spend time leading him around the farm so we can practice follow the leader. He goes where and does what I say. I'm better leading him and keeping his attention than I am when I ride my lesson horse, in retrospect. I will remember this. 

So, is it ok for me to stop sometimes and look around with him? We just stand for a few minutes and he looks around and I look around, and sometimes I point to stuff and he looks; and sometimes his ears ***** to something and I look. I'm usually touching him while we are stopped, and I feel our connection is still maintained. When we are on the move, I still jiggle his lead if his attention wanders away from me. 

Does our little stop and look breaks confuse him somehow? Reading through this made me wonder if it did. I don't want to confuse him by, I guess for lack of a better word, "asking" him to look around, when I usually "tell" him to be a good boy and do what I say. Does it confuse him as far as my leadership to stop and sightsee? 

Sorry if this sounds dumb. I just feel like I am learning the balance of being my horse's leader. I know with dogs it is ok to stop during a walk and have them sit and look around with you, just as long as they don't try and go after something. But horses aren't dogs!


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## toosexy4myspotz

I found that around and looking made my mare more fearful. But each horse is different. Some horses can stop and look for a second and then walk on. If I let my mare so and look she is much more anxious and no longer focuses on me. She is now completely focused on the object which I do not like. You will just have to get to know your horse better to see what works for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## z28gal

I've been thinking a lot about this post, and how it fits with what I do with my horse. I just took her on her first trail ride this past weekend, so we are still in the training phase. She was AWESOME 90% of the time - she's very much a boss mare, and was happy and calm being in the front. Very careful of her feet - I had her on the buckle and she would occasionally hesitate and put her head down, but it was just to check her footing and she always moved right on. I didn't consider this "looking at things" and was glad she was being so careful - ground was very wet and we were on steep terrain. Same thing with water/bridge crossings - she'd slow down and drop her head to watch her footing, but never set back or balked. The one time she did act up, we were cantering directly at a bunch of round bales, and she got real squirrely, so I brought her down to a trot and pushed her past them. Forcing her past them at a canter could have ended badly, and I had young riders following. *I think the most important thing is to recognize the difference between your horse being smart and being scared* - which means you have to know your horse. I LIKE that my mare is cautious with her footing and don't mind her slowing down for that reason, but if she's being stupid about something like hay bales, she's going to get a heel to the side. And remember that sometimes slowing down can be MORE forward... when my horse got nervous, she was moving more sideways than forward at the canter, but when I took her down to a trot, I could push her forward again. Cherie mentioned that her horses are trained to stay between your legs and your hands - if your horse gets so worked up that they are escaping your aids, you need to slow down and get them back under control. *Forward is more about the horse moving away from your legs and into your hands than the speed you are moving.* I really like the advice about keeping your mind "way ahead of your horse" - that helps a TON, with both trail riding and jumping. Remember that your horses can feel which way your head is turned/tilted, and if you're constantly looking around or down at the ground for spook material, they will be too!


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## jamesqf

MaximasMommy said:


> So, is it ok for me to stop sometimes and look around with him?


That was one of the questions I wanted to ask. I mean, I am not likely to ever be out rounding up cattle, trying to win a competitive trail ride, or anything like that. I'm just out for a nice day, and that includes a lot of stopping and looking at stuff (just as it does when I'm out hiking or biking). So am I going to be teaching the new horse bad habits by doing this?

Second question is about the advice, back in point #3 & #5 of the first post, about riding past scary stuff. What if the scary stuff isn't stationary? I was incredibly lucky to start riding with a horse that didn't really spook at anything, even stuff that spooked me, like dirt bikes, deer, bears, and (once) a mountain lion, or military transport aircraft flying at treetop level. How can I teach the new horse to deal with scary boogers that come at you?


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## Dustbunny

Sometimes you want to stop...maybe you want to take a photo, or stop to watch a doe and fawn...whatever. You horse needs to be able to stand still as well as go forward. And if we are just standing still I would expect the horse to be looking also.


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## bsms

Horses differ, so there aren't any 100% rules. If Mia notices something 'scary', what works best with her is to stop for 5 seconds so she knows that I've seen it too. Then I expect her to move on. If need be, I'll bump her head a few inches to one side to remind her that I've seen it and do not care.

If I just ignore it, then she assumes I didn't see it and that I don't know it is there. And if I'm 'unaware', then she thinks it is up to her to save us both. In her defense, stops sometimes allow me to see that she noticed a dog that is 1/3 mile away, or a bicyclist.

But some of this depends on how scary something is to the horse. Mildly concerning? Ride on without stopping. Definitely scary? 5 seconds look and then move on.

REALLY SCARY OBJECTS are different. I can forget any advice about 'pushing her forward'. She can darn near canter backwards, and will. Several months ago, it was a woman walking down the road, twirling a pink parasol. Mia snorted, then shoved it in reverse and we flew backwards for about 200 yards. It was a big achievement just to keep her from spinning, but she came to a stop about 200 yards back still. In a situation like that, you can smack her repeatedly with a heavy leather strap to no avail. Been there, done that, gone backwards while whipping her rump.

Notice the leather strap around the horn:










When the horse is sufficiently afraid, or at least when Mia is, you do NOT push her forward. Period.

But I can keep her facing the threat until the threat moves away. With parasol woman, when she came within 30 yards of us, she FINALLY heard me shouting to my diarrhea-squirting horse, "It's just a F'n umbrella!" So she shut the parasol, and Mia stopped bouncing back and forth, stared, blew hard, glared at the woman...and walked on past her with a light squeeze of the calves.

Had it been an immobile really scary thing, then my best bet would have been to back up until Mia was only 'concerned' and not 'terrified', get Mia's attention on me (looking at me), then dismount and lead her slowly from the ground. [Note: do NOT try to dismount from a scared horse who isn't paying attention to you...I did that in Jan 2009 and my back still gets sore at times from the injury that followed.] If it was scary enough, walking somewhere closer to it might be as much as I would get. In the end, her 900 lbs and 4 legs trump my 175 & 2.

That is where knowing your horse helps, and why I advocate walking them around with a lead rope for new riders. When a horse is rolling its eyes and squirting diarrhea, it isn't in the 'learn mode'. If you push that far, you have either pushed too far, or been surprised by something like a pink parasol. Pick your fights. If you fight and lose, you've gone a bunch of training steps backwards. If you have warning and know your horse, you can push their envelope of confidence without breaking it. Push them to stretch their confidence and then declare victory. You can push further later.

That is my experience with a single, very fearful horse. She is vastly calmer now, but something that seems trivial to me can still overwhelm her. At that point, my goals are A) No 'turn & burn' - keep her facing the threat instead of spinning and bolting. And B) keep her stopped, or back up until she can stop, and wait. Most of the really scary objects move. When they move away while I act calm, she figures out that a calm bsms means she can be calm too.


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## Yooper

I hope when I add a horse to the family, I can find a trainer of trail horses as amazing as you, Cherie!


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## Mikhala

It's a good post, but a few more specifics.

You say that not being obedient is not an option. I could not agree more... if you read my last post about "barn sour" you will see the situation I was in. I have to admit, I was getting a bit angry about the whole thing at the time and shouldn't have been bringing emotion into it, but in that situation, HOW on earth do I get her moving forward??
If I hit her with my whip, she would just bounce around on the spot or spin more! 
Getting off seemed like letting her win, but she was so wound up by that time, she was insane. She also started backing into some dangerous areas, so in the end I did have to get off for both of our safety, and ended up leading her out.

If disobedience is not an option, can you tell me what you would have done to get her out of it? 
Oh, I have a strong, driving seat, a good leg and I tried the one rein circling, etc. It all only seemed to get her more worked up. I also tried just letting her stand for a few seconds quietly and trying again....no go.


Cheers
M.


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## Cowgirl Kristi

*Trail Horse*

Thank You Cherie! You made my day! Straight up common sense. Be a strong leader to build a horse's confidence. I love it!


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## chickpea65

*Horse rears on trail*

HI,

I have a TB gelding (rescue). He is a great guy but from what I have been able to learn about him( was ridden by kids and returned to the barn minus the kids). We took him out on a trail ride and he did fine the first few times.
My spouse( his horse) rode him. The third time we went out- he got nervous
and wanted to go back to the barn- when my spouse would not allow this=the horse went up- I suspect my spouse was giving conflicting aids-
Anyway- he has learned this works for him. I have been riding in the pasture with him- he is ok for a while then he seems to decide it is time to quit- he bucked a bit and started to go up but I settled him down- insisted he keep going forward and he was ok but he always seems to get upset when asked to trot or canter. Any suggestions?


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## Cherie

Hi chickpea. Sorry I did not see this until now.

You don't have a trail riding problem. You just have a spoiled horse that has learned to get its way by 'stalling out' and rearing if that does not work. 

I hate to give advice on rearing horses. I have to see them and work with them myself to decide if the horse will escalate the behavior to falling over and 'flipping' or will go forward with a good spanking. One thing is sure, every time he gets to stop going forward, the bad habit becomes more ingrained in his behavior. There is a reason these spoiled horses join the ranks of the 'unwanted horses'. When you 'rescue' one, you either have to turn them into a 'pasture pet' or get them the necessary re-training by a good rider to 'fix' them -- easier said than done. They are dangerous for the novice rider to tackle. An 1100# horse falling over on a rider can be deadly or crippling. 

I used to re-school spoiled horses like this all of the time. I would ground drive them until they 'stalled out' and then I would spank on them until they went forward willingly. I would get after them until they gave up the behavior and happily went forward. Then I started riding them and would 'over and under' them with a pair of heavy harness leather reins the instant they even thought about stalling out. I would get after one very hard until they were thrilled to go forward.

Your best option would be to find a local rider that is willing to MAKE him go forward when he wants to stop. Even then, chances are pretty good that he will just go back to it when you start riding him again. You have to get after one pretty hard to make them give it up all together. 

Ground work (other than driving him) is not going to help a bit. He knows what he can do and what he can make his riders do. He is simply 'spoiled'.


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## dernhelm1984

Cherie and Co.,

I just gotta say "thank you so much" for this thread! It has given me a lot of perspective how to work on things with my young new horse AND just boosted my confidence by reading. 

Jenny


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## My horse Hawk

Good post. But I do believe horse should be allowed to sniff and look at anything. It helps them get over their fear. When I was training my horse Hawk I would let him look and sniff the thing he was afraid of (obviously not "live" things) it really helped him


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## iRide Ponies

Serendipitous said:


> I agree with your post mostly as well. The one exception I would say is that I am a little more careful before I dismiss my horse when she won't go forward (not spooking, that she doesn't do very much).
> 
> A year ago I was riding on unfamiliar trails, and there was some downed barbwire partially covered with leaves. I didn't see it, but when my horse stopped, I just figured that she had a "mentally stuck" moment, so I urged her on. She went because she trusted my leadership, got caught in the wire, went down on her knees and I rolled over her shoulder unharmed. She struggled to her feet and was frantic for a minute before I stood up and calmed her down. We walked back to the trailer. She had multiple cuts on her legs and one on her lip. She still trusts me, and goes where I ask her to go, but if she ever hesitates that strongly, I look around before asking her to move on. I like that she has a mind of her own, and a sense of self-preservation that will keep me safe as well if I let it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yesterday I was riding on an unfamiliar trail. Shakira had behaved well the whole ride, negotiating some really fierce obstacles and remained the calmest of the group. However we approached a shallow muddle puddle, she refused to cross. I succeeded in growling her over, she took one step in and fell up to her shoulders. Tomoe. I felt guilty and she refused to cross the next creek, something she never does, even tho this one perfectly safe. I still feel guilty and I plan to go find me a nice creek to ride over a few times to remind her that I do have some sense of judgement.


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## Sharpie

Re-reading this again for the umpteenth time. Still true, still fantastic, and here two-plus years after posting and my first read-through, and it makes more sense than ever.


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## nitapitalou

Thank you Cherie for all the tips. I think to many riders are spooked themselves going down a trail, thereby making their horses feel like the boogie man is out to get them at any moment. 

My only disagreement with you is about desensitizing training. I am including a lot of that in my training of my filly. Partially so that she gets used to things coming flapping at her or the sounds of things that could easily and commonly happen. However, a lot of it is also so she has the opportunity to build a mutually trusting relationship in a safe environment. That way when we head out on the road, she has the confidence knowing that she can face new things, because, no pun intended, I've got her back. 

Happy trails!
Anita


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## hollysjubilee

Nina, I cannot honestly speak for Cherie, but I don't believe she is saying that desensitizing training isn't effective or beneficial for training horses to be safer on trail. I hear her saying that once someone has allowed a horse to become spoiled in rearing (or any dangerous vice), no amount of desensitizing is going to help. Desensitizing in ground work or on top in a round pen will help teach a horse to not spook, but a rearing horse isn't rearing because he's afraid. He's rearing because he doesn't want to move . . . and no amount of desensitizing is going to get him moving. In fact, most desensitizing is done so the horse will stand and face and not flee the spooky thing on trail. An experienced rider who can read the rearing horse and feel his first hint of hesitation about moving forward will discipline him and make him wish he hadn't even thought of going up. Cherie uses leathers; I bend a horse around and put him to work on a few small circles, ask him to move forward, again, and if he refuses, I bend him around my leg again and whomp on him with my legs until he moves forward, etc. . . . and she is correct that a trainer or experienced friend can "fix" the horse for him/herself, but if the owner doesn't have the knowledge or confidence to do the same thing when riding, the horse will probably regress into a rearer, again.


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## nitapitalou

Dang computer, I had a whole bunch of stuff typed out, then poof, gone. LOL

Holly,

I was replying to Cherie's very first post. I think she has a lot of great information. I agree that moving a horse forward is the best option or circling. The other thing I do is to ask the horse to do something that they are very good at. It helps reset their brain sometimes. My thought on desensitizing is that it helps builds a horses confidence and trust with the owner/rider.

Though, I missed the rearing part of this thread, I would agree that frequently the horse is rearing to avoid going in the direction that was asked, whether it is because of fear or just being barn sour. I have also seen a couple of horses rear to avoid pain from an ill fitting saddle. Not mine, thankfully I have the sense to check the fit of the saddle before mounting. 

IMO, one of the best ways to make a great trail horse, is lots of miles on the trail. 

Hope that clears up any confusion about my thoughts. 

Happy trails!
~Anita


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## Cielo Notturno

Hi! Nice advice, I see where some of those things might be really helpful.

I tried to read all replies but there is one thing I don't think I read:

What do you do with a horse who bolts not because he's scared, but because he just wants to run?

I have an arabian gelding, and in the arena he stops the moment I think about it. Outside, not so much (that's why we don't really go outside much, and I would want to do it). How do you ride "hard and fast" a horse who's already galloping full speed? There is all sort of crap on our trails, so going blindly full speed for a long time would be extremely dangerous, and leaving the trail for uneven ground would be worse (high risk of barbed wire laying around in the tall grass). 

I know you cannot solve my problems from behind a computer, I'm just interested in hearing your opinion


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## hollysjubilee

*Never go faster than you can control your horse*



Cielo Notturno said:


> Hi! Nice advice, I see where some of those things might be really helpful.
> 
> I tried to read all replies but there is one thing I don't think I read:
> 
> What do you do with a horse who bolts not because he's scared, but because he just wants to run?
> 
> I have an arabian gelding, and in the arena he stops the moment I think about it. Outside, not so much (that's why we don't really go outside much, and I would want to do it). How do you ride "hard and fast" a horse who's already galloping full speed? There is all sort of crap on our trails, so going blindly full speed for a long time would be extremely dangerous, and leaving the trail for uneven ground would be worse (high risk of barbed wire laying around in the tall grass).
> 
> I know you cannot solve my problems from behind a computer, I'm just interested in hearing your opinion


Hi, Cielo!

In order to enjoy riding, we must feel safe and in control. There must be mutual trust between the horse and the handler or it's really tough to have fun.
If your horse has a habit of bolting on the trail, it takes away the fun of riding outside an arena. Therefore, never let your horse go faster than you can control him. Just do walking trailrides if that is all you and your horse can handle. If you are riding with someone else who wants to canter, then put your horse to work doing something else, like small circles or halts and rein backs and side passes and let yielding as you allow forward movement along the trail, but don't canter unless you know you can control your horse's direction and speed.

When I have had horses bolt on me, I've pulled them around my leg IMMEDIATELY and worked them on small circles until I feel them soften and give slack in the reins, and then, I allow them forward, straight movement, but if the horse starts moving faster than a walk without my cue, then we do small circles until I feel that softness in the neck and body . . . and can tell that the horse has his attention on me. Do you do obstacles in the arena? That's a good place to start . . . giving your horse lots of interesting obstacles and lots of changes of speed and direction. 

If my horse is not paying attention to me at the walk and is pulling on the bit and not listening to my cues, then that horse is running away in his mind. We MUST have 100% attention from the horse in order to be safe. Once a horse puts his attention on another horse or a plastic bag or a bird or the wind or grass or whatever, then I am outside my safety zone, not just for me, but for the horse, too (as you mentioned barbed wire or other harmful obstacles on the trail.) It is good if we can have safe trails, but if we can't, we must, at the least, have safe horses and safe riders who are always giving attention to one another.

Try many short walking trail rides and practice other maneuvers as you are going forward . . . and when you feel confident that you have your horse's utmost attention and can get him to respond to your cues at the walk, then try adding in some trot, but keep using the maneuvers (circles, serpentines, halts, rein backs, leg yields) while you are trotting and intersperse walking with the trotting . . . and when you feel that you have your horse's 100% attention at your trot trailrides, then do a trail ride with a short canter . . . but as SOON as you see your horse's attention leave the task and focus on some other stimuli, then slow him to trot and do some maneuvers . . . then, do another canter. Pretty soon, your horse will realize that whenever he even THINKS of taking his attention off of you, that you will put him to work.

Enjoy and be safe!


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## Cherie

I will try to get back and answer some of the questions people have. I am pretty much MIA right now and may be for a while. I have a 9 month old grandson in Children's Hospital in OKC. This is his 4th hospitalization in less than 3 months and he is not doing very well. So, I have been going up and down I-35 more than I have been home. I only have an old PC, so if everyone will bear with me, I will try to get back to everyone when things slow down a little.
Cherie


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## nitapitalou

Best wishes to you and your grandson! Praying for a speedy recovery!!


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## PixeChick

Wonderful information! I'm on it!  Thanks so much as I know this took time and effort to do. Its appreciated.


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## ellen hays

I hope your grandson has recovered and doing well. My thoughts and prayer are with you.

I really enjoyed reading this post. It is a really good piece. Thank you!

Introducing Red to everything on the trail he noticed might be one of the issues horse and rider are dealing with now. You mentioned the riders' fear. A couple of wrecks with the ground has caused me a great deal of apprehension which I am sure is sensed by my horse. 

Thanks, 

Ellen


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## Mercy98

Thank you for posting this. This will help me alot with training my 3 year old trail mare!!


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## Kerrie

Very interesting Cherie, i will give it a go. I could be a year and a bit off riding again. I have a nearly 8 month old that i have just weaned and I'm hoping he will be my "forever" horse as I'm 50 years old now. I've got lots of questions as I've never done this before ( attempted to break in my horse myself) maybe you could answer me this one? How old should a horse be to be ridden the first time? Is it 2 y.o or 3 y.o? I am only 56 kg so i'm not that heavy? Thanks Kerrie


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## dannbarbery

Thanks for the information. I will print it.


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## ZombieHorseChick

trailhorserider said:


> I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war.



Exactly! I'm kinda like you in that aspect, I just brush it of like nothing and keep the horse moving, if I can; my mare OT tends to freak out at EVERYTHING, so we've been working on that; This might help me out  Thanks .


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## Mikhala

I'm just wondering something - my mare has just moved again and she has been acting very barn/buddy sour. I read a post you wrote regarding being 'boss' with them. I tried this last night and she was SO tense. She was literally coiled up as if to explode, shaking, sweating, stock still and stiff and then when/if I applied pressure, she would rear. Would you still ride through that? or find another approach. I feel like it was impossible to teach in that state.


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## ChitChatChet

Cherie said:


> I will try to get back and answer some of the questions people have. I am pretty much MIA right now and may be for a while. I have a 9 month old grandson in Children's Hospital in OKC. This is his 4th hospitalization in less than 3 months and he is not doing very well. So, I have been going up and down I-35 more than I have been home. I only have an old PC, so if everyone will bear with me, I will try to get back to everyone when things slow down a little.
> Cherie


Was wondering how your grandson was doing?


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## Tesslea

Common sense horsemanship.... what my Daddy always called it. Thanks for the post you gave me some great reminders. I needed those. Good Weekend!


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## many horses

trailhorserider said:


> Great post Cherie! I love reading your posts (I saved a similar post you did from a long time ago on training trail horses).
> 
> Since trail is what I "do" I really try to learn all I can.
> 
> I seem to have a knack for riding nervous/high strung horses and I think it's because I don't feed off of their fear. It's not that I don't get afraid, because there is always a time and place that I can get scared too. But I "don't sweat the small stuff" and get bent out of shape if the horse jumps at something or worries a little or refuses to walk or gets jiggy. I just have gotten to the point that I let that stuff roll off, do the best I can to control the situation and keep riding.
> 
> I see so many people get scared, tense and even mad at their horses because the horse gets a little scared/nervous and it just escalates the whole problem. It goes from a tiny blip on the radar to all-out war.
> 
> I usually let my horses stop and look at scary things for a moment or two and then attempt to ride on like it is nothing. Most of the time that works for me. I will keep in mind that perhaps I should just ride on like it is nothing to begin with. Sometimes a horse has so much fear of an object you can tell that if you just ride on past the horse will try to flee from it. If I feel that is going to be the case I let them "look" until I feel we can ride past it without fleeing. It seems like those few seconds lets the horse settle a bit instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction.
> 
> But in any approach, the rider needs to take the attitude that whatever the scary object is, it is nothing at all and not project nervousness to the horse.
> 
> Thank you for the great advice.


I agree some but not completely. You can avoid a wreck by trusting in the horse as well as the horse trusting you. They see things on the trail at times that you may not see. Example..a small thin vine across the trail that looks like a electric fence wire. You didn't see it but the horse did. Would you really expect a horse to walk through a fence wire? No and if you did you'd be laying on the ground looking up. Sometimes you have to listen to your horse.


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## Hondo

Cherie said:


> 'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider


Thirty pages but I did not see any farther info on this. Seriously wondering how to know or recognize when a horse is super paranoid and exceptionally spooky that would always need a confident ( and probably highly skilled) rider.


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## DarlaPony96

Great post! Totally helpful for me this year!


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## Levimom

I agree that it all starts with obedience and getting a horse to trust you. So many people just throw a saddle on their horse and "hope" that their trail ride will go well.

I have spent a great deal of time on the bond with my horse. My Levi is two and when I got him, he was afraid of everything. I wasn't convinced that he could become a trail horse. But I have such a bond with him, that even as a green two year old...he could easily be used as a lesson horse or kids could ride him.

I'm always trying to think of new things that he could encounter on the trail and desensitize him to it, but I liked your concept Cherie that when he is willing to trust me then everything else will be ok.

Thanks for this post.


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## Fatlegsuperpony

Thanks Cherie. Awesome, printed this for my wall.


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## Chef2horses

*Training*

Cherie. Do you train other people's horses?


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## Earthhorse

Great advice, thankyou!


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## DragonflyAzul

Okay I really love your view on desensitizing, I could.. Never put it into words.. Never quite put my finger on how I felt.. And I am never one to argue with a method when I can't put into words why I don't like or agree with it. But honestly! I never saw the great benefit of trying to terrify horses into.. Not... Being... Scared??


???


Anyway, you said it very well and I'm going to show this to everyone I know.


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