# Grulla, Dark Bay or Dark Buckskin?!



## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

Either a bay/brown or a really sooty buckskin.
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Are we sure dam was a buckskin? Could she have been a bay dun?

He does appear to have that "slate/grey" color that many grulla's can have. Not all horses that carry the dun gene, show all the outward signs of dun. (zebra markings, strong dorsal stripe, shoulder barring, cob-webbing on forehead etc)

But, My guess would be brown.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm going to say brown or bay.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh yes, smokey black is a high possibility...That's my guess! Smokey Black.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Black or smokey black definitely not a dun. Dun is a dilution his coat is not diluted, just sun faded. There is also no dun factor. Blacks often get a dark line down their back when they fade.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Just so you'll have a reference a single dun gene will dilute any color including black. While a single cream cannot dilute black, but it is said that these smokey blacks are more prone to sun fading and your's is pretty faded. If you curious you can test for cream, if you want you can test for agouti but I bet he will come up a/a which makes him black. A dun dorsal even on a black base will have the appearance of being drawn on with a marker a crisp line. But with sun fading and counter shading will be smudgy and blend with the coat. You have a lovely horse though, I like his build!!!

Notice on this grulla (black + dun) the white guard hairs on the mane the prominent ear tips and dorsal. 









Dorsal doesnt stop at top of tail but travels down into tail.








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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

At this point, without better photos, I'm pretty confident that he's a very dark grulla. They aren't particularly common but they do happen.
Jaz Poco Sterling - hammer horses
He's not quite as dark as your boy, but it gives you an idea of how dark they can be. Not all grullas look like the ones that PBR posted. In fact, those examples are especially light with very dark, prominent dun factor that isn't always present. Not all grullas have frosting in the mane like that and all most definitely don't have that awesome of dun factor on the ears!
I know I've seen other grullas as dark as the OP gelding. Unfortunately I don't have any saved, but I think I've found them on the online BLM adoption site. That seems to be the best place to find awesome expressions of dun


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is pretty. I think I would call that a brown or seal brown .


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

Thank you all for your input! And mom was definitely a buckskin. The funny thing about the sun bleaching is that since he's shedded most his baby hair out he got darker and hasn't been out a lot since. Only a couple times. He's a year and a half by the way lol.
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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

AnnaLover,that Grulla is gorgeous and looks a lot like him actually! I'm half way between grulla and dark bay. The weird difference is the no brown on his face. The only brown left on his face is the faded baby fuzz. I might just have him tested so I'll stop driving myself nuts hahaha
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Ah, the other thing I was going to say is that his dam must have been dunskin (buckskin+dun) if my theory of his being a very dark grulla is correct. Even if she didn't appear obviously dunskin, it is still very possible that she could have been. It's quite often that dunskins don't have prominent dun factor.
Any pics of his dam or sire available? Any baby pictures?
You could always spend the $25 to get him tested for dun! If he's positive for it, then the only thing he could be based on his appearance is grulla. 
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dunhorse.php
Better pictures of him would really help as well


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

Not yet  I'm still in the process of the purchase and I'm hoping to get pictures of his parents soon. His granddames side has a lot of buckskin and his grandsires has a lot of bay's browns and buckskins. He has a very proud dorsel stripe and mom had a lighter one, haven't seen dad though.
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Hopefully you can get some pictures then! 
See my edit to my last post in case you missed it- I think I edited it at the same time that you just posted :lol:


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

I think so! Lol I definitely am going to look into it now that I know it's not super expensive!! Thanks for the help!
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Not a problem at all  
Looking forward to more pictures of him and hopefully of his parents as well!


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

He looks black to me- a little sun faded.. test him?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

AnnaLover said:


> At this point, without better photos, I'm pretty confident that he's a very dark grulla. They aren't particularly common but they do happen.
> Jaz Poco Sterling - hammer horses
> He's not quite as dark as your boy, but it gives you an idea of how dark they can be. Not all grullas look like the ones that PBR posted. In fact, those examples are especially light with very dark, prominent dun factor that isn't always present. Not all grullas have frosting in the mane like that and all most definitely don't have that awesome of dun factor on the ears!
> I know I've seen other grullas as dark as the OP gelding. Unfortunately I don't have any saved, but I think I've found them on the online BLM adoption site. That seems to be the best place to find awesome expressions of dun


I have seen plenty of dark grullas and you can still tell they are grulla. He's sun faded black your making something simple special and complicated. If OP posts a pic of his dorsal perhaps it will be more obvious to you. I posted a light grulla to show dun factor. Even on dark grullas you can still see dun factor. He's sun faded black that's all there is to it. Also neither parent is dun and that is a MUST because dun is a simple dominant.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

OP before you test get us some new close up and full body pics and the "dorsal" in question.
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I have seen plenty of dark grullas and you can still tell they are grulla. He's sun faded black your making something simple special and complicated. If OP posts a pic of his dorsal perhaps it will be more obvious to you. I posted a light grulla to show dun factor. Even on dark grullas you can still see dun factor. He's sun faded black that's all there is to it. Also neither parent is dun and that is a MUST because dun is a simple dominant.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I definitely agree on better pictures to be sure. I, however, can see plenty of dun factor in the last picture to warrant grulla.
I am also very aware that in order to have a dun, one parent must be as well :wink:
That is why I said " his dam must have been dunskin (buckskin+dun) if my theory of his being a very dark grulla is correct. Even if she didn't appear obviously dunskin, it is still very possible that she could have been. It's quite often that dunskins don't have prominent dun factor."
I have my opinion and you have yours. I can totally see where you're coming from, but I have my reasons for believing that he is a dark grulla rather than a smokey black/ sunfaded black. 
I am not 100% sure with my theory, but better pictures will hopefully enable us all to decide for sure :wink:


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Here are a couple great examples of very dark grullas.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb2q79vrI41r3j3nro1_500.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb2q5atCnd1r3j3nro1_1280.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g366/rodeocowgirlrio/IMG_1251.jpg


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If Mom was definitely a buckskin and Dad was definitely a bay, then grulla isn't an option. One parent has to be dun for a foal to be dun.

Just judging from the pictures, I'd say that he's either a brown or a fading black...leaning toward brown.

Having a dorsal stripe doesn't automatically mean dun either.

This is the rump of my yearling filly, who's brown









And this is her dam (sorry for the crappy pic), who was definitely bay


















And this is her momma (left), her (middle), and her older sister (right). Older sister was a black (no cream) and she would have a dorsal stripe when sunfaded.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

AnnaLover said:


> I definitely agree on better pictures to be sure. I, however, can see plenty of dun factor in the last picture to warrant grulla.
> I am also very aware that in order to have a dun, one parent must be as well :wink:
> That is why I said " his dam must have been dunskin (buckskin+dun) if my theory of his being a very dark grulla is correct. Even if she didn't appear obviously dunskin, it is still very possible that she could have been. It's quite often that dunskins don't have prominent dun factor."
> I have my opinion and you have yours. I can totally see where you're coming from, but I have my reasons for believing that he is a dark grulla rather than a smokey black/ sunfaded black.
> I am not 100% sure with my theory, but better pictures will hopefully enable us all to decide for sure :wink:


 Lol ok I'll let you have your color theory it's more fun that way anyways. But look closely at the tone of the coat even on those dark grullas they have that dun tone. The OP's horse is missing that.
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

I can totally see dun undertones in the last picture posted in the OP, along with shoulder barring and much darker, blacker legs in contrast to his body color. The flank color screams dun IMO.
The second picture really doesn't look grulla at all to me, but I think a lot of it has to do with the poor quality/weird lighting. The first picture isn't convincing either, but to say that it is also bad lighting is an understatement :lol:
The third one looks 100% like a dark grulla to me, and of course the last picture sold me on the idea.
Now we wait for more/better pictures and hopefully some baby and parents pictures as well!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

We are opposite last picture confirms it the most that he isn't dun muhaha!
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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

So I looked on his papers and there are dun lines, however, his mother is not dun. Not sure about his father. Also got a good picture of his dorsel stripe but can't upload it on my phone . Whatever color he is, he's cute, smart and funny. That's all that matters.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Use photobucket and use the image code to post that's how I post on my phone 
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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Bandits Momma said:


> So I looked on his papers and there are dun lines, however, his mother is not dun. Not sure about his father. Also got a good picture of his dorsel stripe but can't upload it on my phone . Whatever color he is, he's cute, smart and funny. That's all that matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are the duns on his dam's side? Like I said before, his dam could very well be dunskin but only registered as buckskin because 1) she lacks prominent/obvious dun factor as many dunskins do, 2) dunskin wasn't an available option when registering her (and if I remember right, it wasn't an option when I registered my 2011 AQHA gelding), or her breeders didn't even know what dunskin was (as many people do not- experienced horse people or not).


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

Here's some new pictures of Bandit. Still hard to show the dorsel going into his tail because the flash reflects off his tail (still butt high )


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

His face is completely black. The only blonde he has on his face is in and behind his ears.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

In all actually he reminds me of another poster's mare... She is what I, and Chiilaa, believe is a brown dun (black base, brown agouti, and the dun gene).


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Is it possible that you could get some pictures in natural light? Like outdoors? 
I still see him as being dark grulla. Outdoor pictures would REALLY help though!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with needing better pictures in natural light. I'm still thinking that the dorsal stripe might be due to countershading and that he's not carrying a dun gene.


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

I will try to get some better pictures tonight. I'm going to give him a bath too so that will help get the dirt off for a good clean picture.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Make sure and let him dry first.


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## Bandits Momma (Jun 6, 2013)

yup, figured lol


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