# Chains on Front Legs?



## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi,
I am not knowledgeable about Dressage Riders using them but I know the gaited world does very often to get the "Big Lick" style, which personally disgusts me. They do it to raise the front feet more and give more action, so I am assuming the same for this situation your talking about.

They probably use shoes to get this affect without using chains.


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

That isn't for dressage, the only thing I can think of that uses any kind of chains, or weights on front legs is saddle seat horses, maybe that's what you saw.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

I don't think it was saddle seat, because there wasn't any saddle seat classes that day. Only jumping and dressage... im not sure they even have saddle seat there. and to Black Beauty 94, not even knowing anything about the chains it made me mad because it looked so awful!


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

It is, if you research the gaited breeds and what they do to them to get the look is just horrible. Many things are just used for show and they do not think about what the horse is best for.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> It is, if you research the gaited breeds and what they do to them to get the look is just horrible. Many things are just used for show and they do not think about what the horse is best for.


One of the many reasons why i hate dressage (no offense to anyone who does it) And it doesnt even look right, it looks SOO unnatural!


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree with you, but their are many riders of each discipline that treat their horses well. I only think one is so horrible (but I do not care to say it)


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Dressage doesn't even seem fun to me, i guess some people think its fun. :/


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Did you say the chains were connected to eachother


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Lexiie said:


> Did you say the chains were connected to eachother


Umm... I'm not sure exactly, i was kinda looking from the distance, it looked like they were. They could've not been.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I read that and thought of ponies in orange jumpsuits...


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Lexiie said:


> I read that and thought of ponies in orange jumpsuits...


hahaha when i first saw it i was like is that a costume class????


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

are these the chains????


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Saddle seat trainers often use hobbles that are attached to each other with surgical tubing or bungee cords. It is to encourage the horses to step with more dramatically high action on the front end.

Sadly, with the dressage world becoming enraptured with extreme front end movement, often at the expense of proper haunch engagement, I wouldn't put it past some dressage trainers to try this training aid. The delving into harsh and, in my eye, improper training for todays dressage horses is one of the reasons I left high level competition and doubt I will ever go back to it.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> Saddle seat trainers often use hobbles that are attached to each other with surgical tubing or bungee cords. It is to encourage the horses to step with more dramatically high action on the front end.
> 
> Sadly, with the dressage world becoming enraptured with extreme front end movement, often at the expense of proper haunch engagement, I wouldn't put it past some dressage trainers to try this training aid. The delving into harsh and, in my eye, improper training for todays dressage horses is one of the reasons I left high level competition and doubt I will ever go back to it.


Thank you this is very good information. Because all i could find were ones without anything across it when i was trying to google it so it makes sense that there are surgical tubing or bungee cords across them. And the horses were walking dramatically. and it looked so awful as i have said in other posts. as you said you wouldn't put it past some dressage trainers to do that training method, i wouldn't either considering its a pretty high level and hard show. is this method legal for dressage?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

No, it is not.
If it was done in a monitored dressage warm-up ring, I doubt it was anyone showing....in dressage, at least. They could have been saddleseat trainers schooling for classes the next day. More likely, IMHO.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> No, it is not.
> If it was done in a monitored dressage warm-up ring, I doubt it was anyone showing....in dressage, at least. They could have been saddleseat trainers schooling for classes the next day. More likely, IMHO.


It was a monitored warm-up ring (i think) because anyone could walk over and watch and there were lots of people there. But it didnt look like they had a saddle seat saddle.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It's the gaited riders. I go to Devon every year too, it's not the dressage riders. 

It doesn't matter if there are Big Lick classes or not, I go to the GP event on Thurs evening and many of them bring their horses out to train even though they are not competing. It could well be that they want to use an empty area as only the main arena and warm up are used, but it sure seems like they are just showing off to me. They seem oblivious that many people there find it abhorrent.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Ok ya that makes sense because they were doing jumping when I saw the chain things... And ya they are pretty oblivious once these to people ran into eachother cuz they were talking on the phone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

The chains themselves, when used correctly do not cause physical pain, as many believe. They are there to encourage the horse to step UP and OUT. They feel them, as they would tall grass and try to step out of them. It is no more harmful than putting socks on a dog. Now when you put chemicals there as the TWH people who sore their horses do, or drop links so that there is something smacking the hoofwall, or if they forge and step on them, yeah, it can cause pain, but by themselves, no. 

The ones you might see connected are either plain leather straps, or fleece covered leather straps with a length of stretchy surgical tubing between them. This is similar to what many people use for resistance training using rubber bands or elastics. These are for strength training, building muscle, and at the same time still encouraging the UP and OUT movement. 

Some horses will use them and others will not. It is very easy for a horse to just not pull stretchers, and there are many who choose to do just that. And the chains, again, some respond to them, and some do not. We can't make one use them. If I put them on a QH, they would soon forget they were there. 

More than likely, it was an ASB, which are not technically "gaited" horses. Some are, but the majority haven't moved laterally a day in their lives. They are trotting horses firat and foremost. Devon is a big show for us. ASBs are not sored(can't be, since we'd lose all motion at a trot) and are bred to be able to perform with such high motion. The devices used are not to hurt the horse(our horses would not tolerate being in constant pain. Many would turn flat dangerous.) but are used to encourage the lift and the up and out motion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

JDJumper said:


> One of the many reasons why i hate dressage (no offense to anyone who does it) And it doesnt even look right, it looks SOO unnatural!


Dressage is the essence of getting a horse to move correctly.
I have *never* heard of any sort of chains being used on a Dressage horse's legs.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Yeah, their function is different than what a dressage horse would need. As someone said on a different thread, the "pressure" is always on when they are, so they would be pretty pointless On a dressage horse who needs to move forty different ways in a show, as compared to the saddleseat horse who is up and up the entire class. I think they would be way too inefficient for a dressage horse. Stretchers might have their purpose, but chains, nah.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't see any dressage trainer finding and benefit to using chains. 

Re dressage - do you know what the word dressage means? It means to _train_. You can't get over a jump without having basics in dressage. And to do higher level jumping it requires more dressage training. When you do a rollback in a jump off your horse needs to know how to move off your leg. To teach a horse to move off your leg, you need the flat work. Jumping is dressage over fences.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

I think you have have been severely misinformed and while you are totally entitled to your own opinion I think you need to properly informed on dressage. I personally take offense to this because I go out of my way to make sure my horses are moving naturally while training. My horses are never FORCED to collect or gain contact in the bridle this is something you can't really force without the horse's movement becoming hindered or restricted. Dressage is about getting your horse engaged with you and working as a team. Dressage LITERALLY means "training" and that is all it is, it is training. It is the right amounts of balance with horse and rider, rhythm, and timing. And is different with each horse and rider..

There should NEVER be any reason for anyone training in dressage to use chains of any sort. So you are almost certainly talking about gaited horses, Tennessee walkers, Saddlebreds, Paso Finos, etc. If you are using chains to alter your horse's movement in dressage you need to just quit riding and go back to the basics because you obviously missed something along the line..

So please do not bash something you do not understand or know. =] If you took the time you would find that dressage is a beautiful way of training horses and just like every other discipline there are those out there who will break and bend the rules and harm their horses to win ribbons..


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

if you have to chain your horses leg to get a specific action that is cruel.
justify it all you want.. it is cruel. Dont tie down the heads, dont tie up the tail or whack it with a board so it cant raise the tail.
Whatever discipline of riding the horse should be shown as natural as possible.Not to Fads or styles.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

There are some reasons for it that I know.

1. To raise the horse's legs higher and to give it a flashier, etc.
2. To keep tempo, I've heard people would do that to help with the horse's extended trot/canter.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

JDJumper said:


> So, i go to the Devon Horse show every year (if you're familiar with it) not riding just watching. One time i was looking at the horses warming up and a lot of them had chains from front leg to front leg. I assumed it was for dressage, and it made them walk the way they do for dressage. Is this true? If so why do trainers use these and some do not? how do dressage trainers that dont use these chain things get the horse to walk, trot, canter the way a dressage horse does?


What does it even mean to "walk the way they do for dressage"?


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Probably like this. 
http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/image/598/totilas-square.jpg?1253629480

As compared to this. 
https://www.uphaonline.com/images/Supreme-Reflection.jpg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I've never heard of chains being used by dressage riders. Some horses naturally have more knee action (Totilas is one of them, although it's not a look I personally favor) but it's not a requirement for dressage, nor does it increase the horse's score. There would be no reason to encourage it for the dressage ring.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

DraftXDressage said:


> What does it even mean to "walk the way they do for dressage"?


Like how they do those certain moves and such... i used poor wording before sorry.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> Like how they do those certain moves and such... i used poor wording before sorry.


Dressage is essentially the foundation for anything else. Sure some of the fancy schmancy stuff we do (pirouettes, shoulder-ins, etc) a horse generally wouldn't do by itself in a field, but dressage (the way I understand if from my trainer) gets the horse to move properly. Dressage is getting your horse to be relaxed yet forward, bending in the spine comfortably instead of "motorcycling" through corners, lifting the back instead of being hollowed out, stretching, collected, engaged.

The "special dressage moves" may not be something a horse would do on its own, but utilized properly it shouldn't harm the horse in any way. The 20-somethings at the farm are still kicking and spirited (despite arthritis and one of them having a fractured hip when he was young). They _LOVE_ their work. Everyone can have opinions. I wouldn't knock it till you try it...or at least actually know the proper facts about what you're knocking. ;D


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Then why does every dressage horse I see seem to be bouncing up and down like a pogo stick but not actually covering any ground ? Sorry but that stuff aint natural. Nor would I want my horse bouncing like that.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> Then why does every dressage horse I see seem to be bouncing up and down like a pogo stick but not actually covering any ground ? Sorry but that stuff aint natural. Nor would I want my horse bouncing like that.


Maybe they like to pogo, hehehehe. :lol:
Both my horses will do this and I don't even ask them to. I have to ask them not to from time to time. May be the breeds, not sure. I have a TB and a Trakehner, whom was a dressage champ at one time, lol. Have not had her long enough to comment much on it but my TB well, he is a proud prancer! Out in the pasture playing and blowing all proud. Seems he just likes it.

Oh and invest in a good sports bra, lol.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> I don't see any dressage trainer finding and benefit to using chains.
> 
> Re dressage - do you know what the word dressage means? It means to _train_. You can't get over a jump without having basics in dressage. And to do higher level jumping it requires more dressage training. When you do a rollback in a jump off your horse needs to know how to move off your leg. To teach a horse to move off your leg, you need the flat work. Jumping is dressage over fences.


Then what word do we use when we want to describe "dressage"?

We are not French, or at least, we are not posting here in French.

But no, I cannot imagine anyone training in "dressage" using chains, unless it is "Big Lick Dressage"...


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> Then why does every dressage horse I see seem to be bouncing up and down like a pogo stick but not actually covering any ground ? Sorry but that stuff aint natural. Nor would I want my horse bouncing like that.


A dressage horse SHOULD have good impulsion/forward movement. I have no idea why those horses are "pogos" if they're supposedly properly trained in dressage unless they're constantly in an extremely collected trot...my trainer is constantly pushing me for more forward movement, because that's what the judges want to see in our dressage shows (and my legs are really weak currently, so when I ride now yeah the horse is kind of slow and "pogoey", but when I get stronger he shouldn't move like that).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Reno Bay said:


> Dressage is essentially the foundation for anything else. Sure some of the fancy schmancy stuff we do (pirouettes, shoulder-ins, etc) a horse generally wouldn't do by itself in a field, but dressage (the way I understand if from my trainer) gets the horse to move properly...


No!

Dressage training teaches proper movement and strengthening for collected gaits. It is NOT the basis for everything else. Others can use it for cross training if they wish, but it is not "proper" movement for a horse to support much of its weight on the rear end. When the US Cavalry examined ideas of dressage in the 1800s, their experiments with it concluded that it would make cavalry mounts break down faster.

Different goals in riding result in different styles of riding, different tack, and different training goals. No one discipline is the foundation for another discipline.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

bsms said:


> No!
> 
> Dressage training teaches proper movement and strengthening for collected gaits. It is NOT the basis for everything else. Others can use it for cross training if they wish, but it is not "proper" movement for a horse to support much of its weight on the rear end. When the US Cavalry examined ideas of dressage in the 1800s, their experiments with it concluded that it would make cavalry mounts break down faster.
> 
> Different goals in riding result in different styles of riding, different tack, and different training goals. No one discipline is the foundation for another discipline.


Thank you. I suppose my trainer didn't explain it too properly to me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

nvr2many said:


> ...Oh and invest in a good sports bra, lol.


Ummm...I doubt Joe4d or I will be investing in a good sports bra anytime soon. The day I need a sports bra to ride is the day I cut my wrists and jump into a dumpster. :wink: Ain't that "prosperous" yet! May be getting closer than Joe4d, but not there yet...


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> Then why does every dressage horse I see seem to be bouncing up and down like a pogo stick but not actually covering any ground ? Sorry but that stuff aint natural. Nor would I want my horse bouncing like that.


Yes that is exactly what i mean!!!!!


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## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

I was going to put up a post asking about this same thing. A new boarder at the barn I ride at has a TWH (i think) & uses lether pads with chains on them when she rides. I asked my trainer about them & she said, "I hate them & don't get me started". So my question is, if gated horses are to do that naturally, why do you need the chains?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

*Head explodes*

...
I'm out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> Then why does every dressage horse I see seem to be bouncing up and down like a pogo stick but not actually covering any ground ? Sorry but that stuff aint natural. Nor would I want my horse bouncing like that.


Sorry to break it to you, but they do. My higher level event horse would do this on the lead line without me asking or wanting her to. Bringing her in from the field she would prance in place.

Actually any of my super fit(cross country fit) horses have always done it, even when they were turned out. I used to joke that they were crawling out of their skin.

My fit jumpers don't do it as much, though my mare I ride now does, and she is 20 years old. 

As for the way to describe dressage? Exactly that, dressage. Dressage is training. Dressage is teaching a horse to use itself and move properly while under saddle. Any lower level test is simple walk, trot and canter with some circles and changing rein across the diagonal. 

Most dressage horses will continue on SOUND until their mid twenties. 

I don't get why people are so scared to say that basic training is dressage. Honestly even my now retired GP Jumper could do up to 4th level dressage. I would never buy a horse that didn't have those strong basics. Shortening and lengthening your stride? Dressage.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm not saying that dressage is completely awful it's just not something I'm interested in nor would I ever show in or want to watch at a show. I understand that dressage is a way many people train their horse but I also know there are other methods of training a horse. I understand that dressage can give a horse and rider an amazing bond. But so can other methods. I prefer other methods. Dressage is something I just have little if not no interest in. All I'm asking was about those chains. What they're supposed to do? Why people use them? If there are other ways to get the outcome the chains give? And opinions on them? Are they cruel? Are they not cruel? Are they cruel if used a certain way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> I'm not saying that dressage is completely awful it's just not something I'm interested in nor would I ever show in or want to watch at a show. I understand that dressage is a way many people train their horse but I also know there are other methods of training a horse. I understand that dressage can give a horse and rider an amazing bond. But so can other methods. I prefer other methods. Dressage is something I just have little if not no interest in. All I'm asking was about those chains. What they're supposed to do? Why people use them? If there are other ways to get the outcome the chains give? And opinions on them? Are they cruel? Are they not cruel? Are they cruel if used a certain way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The chains are not used in dressage. We already went over that.

Regarding not wanting to use dressage as a training tool. Hate to break it to you, but you do use it. 

Do you do roll backs when you jump? If you do, please tell me how you ask for the roll back.

Do you shorten and lengthen the stride? Do you adjust your stride coming into a jump? 

Do you ride circles, serpentines and direction changes? 

Do you adjust your approach to a fence when you are coming in at a bad angle?

There is no way around using "dressage". Dressage is training. Just because you don't want to compete in dressage, it doesn't mean you do not use it. 

You will not find any successful GP Jumper riders and trainers who do not encourage the use of dressage in their training program. Most higher level jumpers only jump maybe once or twice a week coming up to a competition. They spend a majority of their ride time working on flat work, which is... omg... dressage!


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Well I'm not interested in becoming a "successful GP jumper" and i know we already discussed that it's not used in dressage but why do people who use it us it? And I'm done discussing dressage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"There is no way around using "dressage". Dressage is training."

So what word should we poor uneducated masses use to describe 'dressage'?

If dressage is all training, then dressage is all riding, since all riding trains a horse for good or ill. In that case, we now have 1 word meaning dressage, training, and riding. That doesn't make for clear communication.

Dressage training is training for dressage. When we all start posting in French, we can change all our meanings to the meanings in French. Until then, it leads to confusion and poor thinking - such as the idea that dressage is the basis for all riding.

"Dressage is teaching a horse to use itself and move properly while under saddle."

The proper movement under saddle depends on the goal of the ride. I fail to see why some dressage enthusiasts want to impose dressage on everyone else. And yes, I'm using ENGLISH in that sentence, not French. You can tell because all the words surrounding 'dressage' are in English...:-x
​


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

bsms said:


> "There is no way around using "dressage". Dressage is training."
> 
> So what word should we poor uneducated masses use to describe 'dressage'?
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wink:


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> "There is no way around using "dressage". Dressage is training."
> 
> So what word should we poor uneducated masses use to describe 'dressage'?
> 
> ...


First off, I actually am NOT a "dressage" rider. I don't compete in dressage shows. Yes I ride a dressage test for eventing. But I do not seek out dressage shows(unless I have a greenie who I want to get exposed to horse show world). I ride maybe one dressage clinic a year, where I ride half a dozen jumper and cross country clinics. So I am not "shoving" anything down anyones throat. I am merely trying to explain things. Oh and ftr, every single jumping clinic I have ever ridden? The first half hour to an hour of it is flat work, which, omg! The clinician calls DRESSAGE! Crazy idea that is isn't it? I did an Ian Miller clinic, first part of the lesson was flat work, Jill Henselwood, Eric Lamaze and even George Morris all do the same thing. 

All I am trying to say is, asking for a halt halt for a correct transition? Dressage. Asking your horse to extend or collect? Dressage. Asking your horse to do a circle while tracking up? Dressage. Asking a horse to ride a straight line? Dressage. Asking a horse to set itself back coming into a jump so it can _properly_ clear a jump? Dressage. 

Dressage is flat work. Dressage puts the basics on your horse. Which is why the first level dressage tests are seriously, trot a straight line, halt, go into trot, go around a corner, do a circle, go in a straight line, ask for canter, do another circle, go down to trot then walk, walk across the diagonal and repeat the earlier steps. There is no half pass, passage or any of that stuff. So where you are not asking for the fancier moves. Does this mean that riding a simple pattern of transitions is not dressage?

Oh one last thing, when you asked your horse to move off your leg to avoid a hazard on the trail? That was dressage as well ;-)


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Pretty much:

UPPER level dressage (fancy moves and whatnot) is obviously the more advanced stuff which is _NOT_ a foundation for anything else other than the DISCIPLINE of dressage.

LOWER level dressage is pretty much ALL the general flatwork you do. Walk, trot, canter, circles, figures, leg yielding, transitions, collecting, extending, etc, etc. Not limited to the dressage DISCIPLINE, but is still dressage TRAINING.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Thank you Reno for the Readers Digest version of my long winded post :rofl: You summed it up perfectly.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Thank you Reno for the Readers Digest version of my long winded post :rofl: You summed it up perfectly.


Figured in case anyone had trouble understanding like I tend to sometimes. Besides, don't really have much else to do while I'm waiting for that darn turkey...four hours to cook a bird @[email protected]


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I think this is a never ending discussion!

A novice hack pattern at a stock horse show contains the same movements as a basic dressage test. Does that mean that everybody who rides a straight line or a corner is doing stock horse showing?

Lower level riding, at any discipline, is just riding! It's what everybody does when they sit on a horse, otherwise you wouldn't go anywhere! Of course knowing how to ride is a pre-requisite to riding dressage, so it makes sense for dressage, and any discipline for that matter, to start of with riding. However, at a dressage competition, that riding will be judged with the requirements of dressage in mind. At a stock horse show it will be judged with the principles of stock horse showing in mind. (Sorry, stock horse showing is what I do, hence it's my example lol!)

When I counter-arc across the camp to keep my cow in sight and set up for my next turn, i'm not doing dressage, i'm doing campdrafting.

When i'm coming down in front of the judge at a stock horse show in a flat gallop and set my horse up to do a haunch turn, i'm not doing dressage, i'm doing a working stock horse class.

When i'm on the trail or moving stock and I move my horse over to avoid an obstacle, i'm not doing dressage, i'm just riding my horse!

When I go and do a dressage test or train toward doing a dressage test, then i'm doing dressage.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I don't think she meant it as a "blashing" way, maybe she has been taught that is the way, everyone has a right to their opinion. 


AndersonEquestrian said:


> I think you have have been severely misinformed and while you are totally entitled to your own opinion I think you need to properly informed on dressage. I personally take offense to this because I go out of my way to make sure my horses are moving naturally while training. My horses are never FORCED to collect or gain contact in the bridle this is something you can't really force without the horse's movement becoming hindered or restricted. Dressage is about getting your horse engaged with you and working as a team. Dressage LITERALLY means "training" and that is all it is, it is training. It is the right amounts of balance with horse and rider, rhythm, and timing. And is different with each horse and rider..
> 
> There should NEVER be any reason for anyone training in dressage to use chains of any sort. So you are almost certainly talking about gaited horses, Tennessee walkers, Saddlebreds, Paso Finos, etc. If you are using chains to alter your horse's movement in dressage you need to just quit riding and go back to the basics because you obviously missed something along the line..
> 
> So please do not bash something you do not understand or know. =] If you took the time you would find that dressage is a beautiful way of training horses and just like every other discipline there are those out there who will break and bend the rules and harm their horses to win ribbons..


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Read my post as to why chains are used. They are not used in dressage. Page 2 of this thread. 

As to bouncing up and down in place, isn't that a piaffe? I don't ride dressage, so I do not know all the terms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Reno Bay said:


> Pretty much:
> 
> UPPER level dressage (fancy moves and whatnot) is obviously the more advanced stuff which is _NOT_ a foundation for anything else other than the DISCIPLINE of dressage.
> 
> LOWER level dressage is pretty much ALL the general flatwork you do. Walk, trot, canter, circles, figures, leg yielding, transitions, collecting, extending, etc, etc. Not limited to the dressage DISCIPLINE, but is still dressage TRAINING.


I am an endurance rider, so I need my horse to move in the most correct manner possible to carry me and endure the long, tough rides. To do so, I'm planning on taking dressage lessons to teach me how to get him to engage his hind in and lift his back, and to teach me how to be a better rider and distinguish between correct and incorrect movement and what will be best for him. One of the things people don't realize is that a horse's "natural" movement isn't always the best movement for carrying a rider and doing the things we ask them to. Yes, through selective breeding, we have produced particular traits for particular styles of riding and work, but that is not a replacement for thousands of years of evolution to make horses successful flight animals to avoid being eaten - that is what their bodies are built for. Just as people don't "naturally" stand with best posture (don't buckle your knees, stomach in to support your core with your abs, etc.) or "naturally" lift heavy objects (don't lift with your back) but rather have to focus and train our bodies, basic dressage training (whether you label it as "dressage" or not) teaches horses to move properly to best support carrying a rider and performing the tasks we ask them to.

No, I'm not a "dressage" rider. I'm not even an English rider. But the basic principles of dressage are what will make sure my horse and I are moving, communicating, and working together correctly.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

LadyDreamer said:


> Read my post as to why chains are used. They are not used in dressage. Page 2 of this thread.
> 
> As to bouncing up and down in place, isn't that a piaffe? I don't ride dressage, so I do not know all the terms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I believe you are correct 

And it demonstrates the most collection, with the horse rounded up, engaging its hind end, and stepping under itself. It takes the "horizontal" energy and transfers it into vertical energy.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

jillybean19 said:


> Yes, I believe you are correct
> 
> And it demonstrates the most collection, with the horse rounded up, engaging its hind end, and stepping under itself. It takes the "horizontal" energy and transfers it into vertical energy.


Furthermore, this would be an example of UPPER LEVEL dressage, which, true, is not what most people do when we say pretty much everyone uses elements of dressage in their training. However, we do collect. I believe that's important for any horse to do, and while I was taught to "collect" a horse when I was younger, I realize now that I was never taught what true collection really is. In a dressage show, it's taken to an extreme - just like a WP often takes jogging and loping to an extreme where you are barely moving at all. That's what a show is - who can do each thing the best?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here a picture of my horses:










Some people call them dogs, but I define 'horse' as 'animal with 4 legs'. And I define 'riding' as walking. So every time I walk my dogs, I'm riding my horses. That may be confusing to some folks, but I figure it is up to them to understand me, rather than for me to use normal English definitions.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> ...One of the things people don't realize is that a horse's "natural" movement isn't always the best movement for carrying a rider and doing the things we ask them to...basic dressage training (whether you label it as "dressage" or not) teaches horses to move properly to best support carrying a rider and performing the tasks we ask them to...


Dressage trains for collected gaits. If you want to ride a horse with collected gaits, using energy in the vertical rather than moving horizontally, then dressage training is good. But collected gaits are not the best way to cover ground, and training a horse to use energy in the vertical isn't the best way to train a horse to move horizontally.

For cross training or enjoyment, it is fine. Maybe even admirable. But it isn't needed as a base for racing.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I am sorry. I will dumb it down for you a bit better. 



> In the modern world, dressage has two correct meanings:
> 
> the basic schooling of every riding horse. Under the guise of "flat work", it is what hunter/jumper trainers do with their horses when they are not schooling over fences
> a type of rapidly growing competition, open to virtually every kind and size of horse and any age of rider.
> ...





> Real dressage is about addressing gymnastically the unbalanced forces that create all feeling of struggle between horse and rider, not just presenting a pretty picture. It is the unique art of channeling the power from the hind-leg through the horse's body to create a beautiful and balanced flow of movement.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Cool story  funny how this turned into a dressage debate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

I think it's more like riding is the basics of dressage.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I obviously can't say what type of horses you saw at the show with chains on or whatever it is you saw. It likely was not dressage horses though. Each discipline has things in it that others do not like. I was brought up around Saddlebreds and still can't think of a thing I don't like about the breed. I love them. (not a fan of the cut tails but not the breeds fault) My horses were always my kids, friends etc... I didn't do things to hurt my horses but I did use developers. This doesn't harm a horse in any way. Sure, someone could do something to harm the horse while using developers or over do it or something but in it's self, it isn't cruel. When a human goes to a gym they use resistance training, when injured the physical therapist used resistance training, that is all developers are. 

Also, Saddlebreds generally don't fit into the "gaited horses" group. Yes, there are some that are 5 gaited but the majority are just normal 3 gaited horses like Quarter horses, warmbloods etc....

If it was big lick horses you saw (don't know why they were training at a dressage show) then I can understand your horror. The way they force those poor animals to move is nothing less then horrifying. The cruelty involve in getting that gait makes my blood boil and my stomach sick.

Again, I never saw any dressage rider doing that to their horses but like all disciplines there are good and bad trainers/riders in it.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

DraftXDressage said:


> What does it even mean to "walk the way they do for dressage"?





LadyDreamer said:


> Probably like this.
> http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/image/598/totilas-square.jpg?1253629480
> 
> As compared to this.
> ...


Just so we're clear, those horses are trotting.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Inga said:


> I obviously can't say what type of horses you saw at the show with chains on or whatever it is you saw. It likely was not dressage horses though. Each discipline has things in it that others do not like. I was brought up around Saddlebreds and still can't think of a thing I don't like about the breed. I love them. (not a fan of the cut tails but not the breeds fault) My horses were always my kids, friends etc... I didn't do things to hurt my horses but I did use developers. This doesn't harm a horse in any way. Sure, someone could do something to harm the horse while using developers or over do it or something but in it's self, it isn't cruel. When a human goes to a gym they use resistance training, when injured the physical therapist used resistance training, that is all developers are.
> 
> Also, Saddlebreds generally don't fit into the "gaited horses" group. Yes, there are some that are 5 gaited but the majority are just normal 3 gaited horses like Quarter horses, warmbloods etc....
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is the answer i was looking for! Not all that debate about dressage!


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

DraftXDressage said:


> Just so we're clear, those horses are trotting.


Yes, i know they were trotting when i said "walk the way they do" i meant like how their gaits look different then a horse running wild.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

So you didn't mean "walk" the way they do, you meant "trot" the way they do?


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

LadyDreamer said:


> Probably like this.
> http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/image/598/totilas-square.jpg?1253629480
> 
> As compared to this.
> ...


 
Yeah, they are both drop dead gorgeous. I don't know what most of you dressage riders think of Totilas but he is my favorite. I love how animated he is. LOVE HIM! Oh, and of course, I love the Saddlebred too, how can you not?


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

DraftXDressage said:


> So you didn't mean "walk" the way they do, you meant "trot" the way they do?


Yes, how they are as someone else described "pogo stick" 




 in this the horse has like a little "bounce" to their gait.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

JDJumper said:


> Yes, how they are as someone else described "pogo stick"
> Dressage exercise: canter - halt - walk - canter transitions. 2009 Zena - YouTube in this the horse has like a little "bounce" to their gait.


I don't see much bounce here at all, with the possible exception of a stride or two leading up to the canter-halt transition. To execute a clean, balanced canter-halt transition (meaning that the horse halts square, rather than allowing the forward momentum of the canter to dump him onto his front end), the horse is going to have to take some of that forward momentum into upward momentum instead in the stride prior to the halt. The "pogo stick" effect, if that's what you want to call it, is the horse loading more of its weight onto the hind legs (similar to what you would see in the highly collected movements like piaffe and passage). 

But again, I'm really not seeing bouncy here at all. Not a great walk, but you can tell that the horse is a bit keyed up because it is anticipating being cued to canter off. That's not a "dressage thing," that's just a horse anticipating.

EDIT: Perhaps I should ask, "Bouncier than what?" Maybe that would help get everyone on the same page with respect to what we're really talking about.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bouncy:

London 2012 Olympic Grand Prix Dressage  - YouTube

My horses don't bounce like that, although they do cover ground faster...:wink:

Actually, Mia DOES do that sometimes in a local wash that we've ridden thru a hundred times, but that still makes her nervous. Since I use an Aussie-style saddle, I call it "Australian Dressage". I'm going to start carrying a top hat with me on the trails, so I can switch and tell folks I'm doing it on purpose.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I think if anyone goes to JDs youtube page and watches her videos, you will see why she thinks that is "bouncy". Her horse is very flat and doesn't use his hind end. I don't want to bash, but I think its hard for someone to understand "correct" when they don't use it themselves.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> Bouncy:
> 
> London 2012 Olympic Grand Prix Dressage  - YouTube


That is not bouncy, that is suspension with impulsion.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^Correct for what purpose?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> That is not bouncy, that is suspension with impulsion.


Now I know why you want dressage to mean so many different things. You are like Charles Dickens, and never want to use one simple word when three will do...


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> ^^Correct for what purpose?


Correct for jumping. Correct as in _using_ himself. You can not go into a jump flat. It just doesn't work. You go into a jump with a horse on the forehand and flat, it crashes through the jump. Its simple physics, there is no way around it. So to _correctly_ jump you need the horse to _correctly_ use itself.

We are talking about more then trail riding here. When you go out trail riding you don't need to worry about the _minor_ details.

Honestly bsms, any time there is a thread that is talking about anything arena work you get your feathers in a ruffle. So I really don't know why you bother.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> Now I know why you want dressage to mean so many different things. You are like Charles Dickens, and never want to use one simple word when three will do...


Well considering _bouncy_ is hard to sit to. I am going to correct you. Suspension and impulsion are actually rather smooth if you know how to sit on a horse right.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Regarding chains: I've never ever seen or heard of them being used in dressage. Ever. Gaited shows, completely different story...

Regarding dressage (and yes, I will address it as it is getting a fair bashing from some people in this thread IME): a well-conformed horse carries itself correctly when hanging out in the paddock. Some horses, like mine, will naturally perform passage, collected gaits and even a half-pirouette or two when out in the paddock. These are all examples of the horse carrying itself properly and expressing itself, and they do these movements while having fun or showing off. 

When you add the weight of a rider to a horse that has not yet been trained to carry itself properly, it will hollow out in the back and fall on the forehand - the added weight has unbalanced the horse. This is ultimately detrimental not only for the performance of the horse but also the horse's physical wellbeing. Therefore, what we who practice dressage try and do from the lowest levels is train the horse to carry itself properly, until it is moving much like it would without a rider. This is a long slow process when done correctly, as it involves strengthening and improving the muscle groups of the back and hindquarters to allow the horse to bear the weight of the rider properly (and obviously it requires the rider to be balanced and "light" in the saddle, and not impeding the horse in any way).

The training pyramid for dressage starts with *rhythm*. You want a horse moving at a steady, even gait, and to not have to be constantly asking it to remain at that speed (i.e. you don't want it constantly trying to slow down or speed up). This is done at the simple walk, trot and canter. And in pretty much all disciplines this is a desired thing. Once you have rhythm, you want *suppleness* and relaxation. You want the horse to be moving freely in a relaxed manner. You want the horse to start bending around your leg when turning, rather than leaning into corners. Next you want *contact*. That doesn't mean the horse's chin being on its chest, it means that you want the horse offering communication (and this doesn't necessarily have to mean "on the bit" - you can do this with a loose rein or bitless bridle and the contact/communication can come through the seat and legs). After contact you want *impulsion*. That's like rear-wheel drive, you get a lot more power with the horse pushing off from behind rather than dragging itself along from the front. Once you've got that you can get true *straightness*. It is very hard for a horse moving without power to be truly straight (just see how wobbly a line or circle you create when your horse is just mooching along on the forehand, compared to when it is actively moving out from behind). The horse's bend (or lack of) should be throughout the whole body and matching the line it is being ridden on. Lastly, you can achieve true *collection.* Once again, nothing to do with where the horse's head is. This is the horse moving as it would without a rider, offering higher level movements such as piaffe, passage and (in the case of classically trained horses) airs above the ground like the levade. The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible. While you may have no interest in getting a horse to perform a piaffe (which is a lot more than "pogoing on the spot", something than any twitchy little racehorse can do), surely to have your horse moving and bearing you correctly is in the best interests of both you and your equine partner?

Sorry for the rant, but some of the attitudes towards dressage really got my goat.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me rephrase:

"Bouncy is actually rather smooth if you know how to sit on a horse right."

True enough, still. It can also be fun to ride. It may or may not be proper movement, in or out of an arena, depending on what your goal is. 
​


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> Let me rephrase:
> 
> "Bouncy is actually rather smooth if you know how to sit on a horse right."
> 
> ...


That is not bouncy though! There is nothing bouncy to suspension and impulsion. 

Good god you are about as bright as a burnt out light bulb when it comes to anything related to arena training.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

bsms said:


> Let me rephrase:
> 
> "Bouncy is actually rather smooth if you know how to sit on a horse right."
> 
> ...


No, but your goal should always involve having your horse carry your weight properly. For the good of the horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible."

Sorry, but this is nonsense. The most effective and healthy way to carry a rider depends on the type of riding. Arguably, a forward seat is the most effective and healthy way of carrying a rider. And collected gaits are NOT, which is why it takes so long to train a horse to perform collected gaits.

If it takes years of conditioning for the horse to carry a given weight in a certain manner, then that manner of carrying weight must be an uncommonly ineffective and unhealthy way of carrying the weight.

That doesn't make dressage wrong. It is right and good for its purpose, and beautiful as well. But it is NOT the most effective and healthy way of carrying a human's weight. There is a reason endurance racing isn't performed using collected gaits, and there is a reason ranch horses live out their lives without carrying their riders in collected gaits - collected gaits are spectacular, but hard on the horse.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> That is not bouncy though! There is nothing bouncy to suspension and impulsion.
> 
> Good god you are about as bright as a burnt out light bulb when it comes to anything related to arena training.


I actually think they're brighter than you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> I think if anyone goes to JDs youtube page and watches her videos, you will see why she thinks that is "bouncy". Her horse is very flat and doesn't use his hind end. I don't want to bash, but I think its hard for someone to understand "correct" when they don't use it themselves.


I would like to say that he is not my horse he is the barn owners horse. And yes I know he had many flaws but all the horses at my barn move like him. And my name is not JD thats the horses name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> "The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible."
> 
> Sorry, but this is nonsense. The most effective and healthy way to carry a rider depends on the type of riding. Arguably, a forward seat is the most effective and healthy way of carrying a rider. And collected gaits are NOT, which is why it takes so long to train a horse to perform collected gaits.
> 
> ...


Actually, when you are in "forward seat" without having the horse engaged off the hind end you are putting all the weight on the horses front end. Which is why horses crash through jumps and fall face first.

It has been proven that the best place to sit on a horse is centered. Even in a forward seat you are still sitting centered. You can NOT be throwing all the weight on the front end. It is down right dangerous.

A horse moves their best and last longer when ridden using center of gravity. There is no disputing it, any reiner, jumper, hunter, endurance rider, dressage rider, barrel racer etc etc etc will tell you you need to ride a horse staying centered on their back. Which means teaching the horse to use themselves and carry themselves. 

I dare you to find me one reputable trainer who will say otherwise.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> I actually think they're brighter than you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh sweetheart if you only knew. And just because a barn full of horses move that way does not mean it is correct. No horse using themselves correctly will crash through a 2 foot jump.

Oh and I am a certified coach who has gone through hundreds of hours of mentoring and training under Olympic level riders. I am pretty darn confident in my knowledge.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Actually, when you are in "forward seat" without having the horse engaged off the hind end you are putting all the weight on the horses front end. Which is why horses crash through jumps and fall face first.
> 
> It has been proven that the best place to sit on a horse is centered. Even in a forward seat you are still sitting centered. You can NOT be throwing all the weight on the front end. It is down right dangerous.
> 
> ...


that's the one thing I agree on with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

bsms said:


> "The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible."
> 
> Sorry, but this is nonsense. The most effective and healthy way to carry a rider depends on the type of riding. Arguably, a forward seat is the most effective and healthy way of carrying a rider. And collected gaits are NOT, which is why it takes so long to train a horse to perform collected gaits.
> 
> ...


*sigh* Wrong. There is only one way for a horse to carry a person properly, and that is to carry them from the back end, with the spine lifting. If they hollow themselves out they are on track for back problems later in life. Doesn't matter _what _discipline you're doing. 

Please, try and understand what I am saying - collection =/= collected gaits. Collection doesn't need to involve "collected gaits" - collection is nothing to do with collected trot, canter etc, it's to do with where the energy is coming from. You can only achieve collected gaits with collection, but you can also only achieve extended gaits with collection too. No, you don't have to have a horse that can perform the levade to have it moving correctly - you just have to have it moving correctly for whatever activities you are doing, whether that be jumping, endurance or barrel-racing.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Oh sweetheart if you only knew. And just because a barn full of horses move that way does not mean it is correct. No horse using themselves correctly will crash through a 2 foot jump.
> 
> Oh and I am a certified coach who has gone through hundreds of hours of mentoring and training under Olympic level riders. I am pretty darn confident in my knowledge.


First don't call me sweetheart. Second I trust my trainer and barn owner more than a random person on the Internet, trying to shove dressage down everyones throat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

bsms said:


> "The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible."
> 
> Sorry, but this is nonsense. The most effective and healthy way to carry a rider depends on the type of riding. Arguably, a forward seat is the most effective and healthy way of carrying a rider. And collected gaits are NOT, which is why it takes so long to train a horse to perform collected gaits.
> 
> ...


Think about it like an Olympic sprinter's training. They do all sorts of "nonsense" like harnessing themselves to a a parachute or resistance band to help them develop more explosive sprinting power, even though they would never have to drag a parachute behind them in competition. You're right in that this kind of training (just as with highly collected, upper level dressage movements) is "uncommonly ineffective." However, it is performed to increase strength and to improve the sprinter's performance in the "effective" motion of an unharnessed, unfettered Olympic sprint. It just so happens that, unlike a runner in a drag harness, highly collected dressage movements are pretty to look at and incorporated into competition. It does not change the fact, however, that it is a form of strength building (and in competition, a display of that strength) that makes the horse move more effectively in gaits and pursuits that even you might not sneer and scoff at.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> "The horse at this level has developed strength and suppleness throughout the back and haunches, and is carrying the weight of the rider in the most effective and healthy way possible."
> 
> Sorry, but this is nonsense. The most effective and healthy way to carry a rider depends on the type of riding. Arguably, a forward seat is the most effective and healthy way of carrying a rider. And collected gaits are NOT, which is why it takes so long to train a horse to perform collected gaits.
> 
> There is a reason endurance racing isn't performed using collected gaits, and there is a reason ranch horses live out their lives without carrying their riders in collected gaits - collected gaits are spectacular, but hard on the horse.


Okay actually teaching a horse proper extension is harder then teaching collection. Horses naturally collect.

Ranch horses? When they are chasing cows? They are working off their hind end and using collection to let them move faster. 

You can _not_ have _correct movement without collection. Which is why you ask for a half halt before asking for a transition. Horses will fluidly move into a forward gate with a half halt asked for first. To move forward, you must move back. There is no way around it. Horses that "fall" into a transition are on the forehand, which is why they fall apart and run into an upward transition, that is not natural. Watch a horse in the field, it will smoothly move into upward gaits. And guess where that movement comes from? Their hind end! Guess what gets that? Collection!_


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

What was this thread about again??? :lol:


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> What was this thread about again??? :lol:


Umm I believe it was "Arguing With Ignorant Fools 101"


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> I actually think they're brighter than you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, that's rich.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Umm I believe it was "Arguing With Ignorant Fools 101"


Umm I believe you're the one being ignorant. I live in the US I don't know about you but I'm allowed freedom of speech, freedom of expression etc. I'm entitled to my own opinion on dressage and I'd appreciate it if we just stopped this thread because I don't want dressage shoved down my throat because quite frankly I can't swallow pills so I can't swallow dressage no matter how much you want me to. So buh bye. Please stop posting on this thread my initial question is answered so I don't see the point in furthering this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

spurstop said:


> Oh, that's rich.


Why thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kayleeloveslaneandlana (Apr 10, 2011)

JDJumper said:


> Umm I believe you're the one being ignorant. I live in the US I don't know about you but I'm allowed freedom of speech, freedom of expression etc. I'm entitled to my own opinion on dressage and I'd appreciate it if we just stopped this thread because I don't want dressage shoved down my throat because quite frankly I can't swallow pills so I can't swallow dressage no matter how much you want me to. So buh bye. Please stop posting on this thread my initial question is answered so I don't see the point in furthering this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMO, you wouldn't be having Dressage shoved down your throat if you wouldn't have bashed it....


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

Oh sweetheart, I wasn't agreeing with you.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ummmm that's not how it works.....you claim freedom of speech....yet you tell everyone else to stop posting on this thread???? It doesn't work that way....


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

kayleeloveslaneandlana said:


> IMO, you wouldn't be having Dressage shoved down your throat if you wouldn't have bashed it....


I just said I don't like dressage. It's something I'm not interested in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The thread sure has drifted, but it is utter nonsense to say that it takes years of training to teach a horse to carry a rider's weight that is efficient, effective and healthy. Pretty much by definition, if it requires a lot of strengthening compared to another method, then it is LESS efficient and effective.

Centered on the back is NOT the most efficient & effective place for a horse to carry weight. Anyone who says otherwise is nuts. The most efficient and effective place to carry weight is at the natural center of gravity - which for a horse is roughly at the withers.

_"A horse moves their best and last longer when ridden using center of gravity. There is no disputing it, any reiner, jumper, hunter, endurance rider, dressage rider, barrel racer etc etc etc will tell you you need to ride a horse staying centered on their back."_

Your statement contradicts itself. A horse's center of gravity is NOT centered on the back. The beauty of a forward seat - which does NOT place the rider's center of gravity centered on the horse's back - is that it places a rider in synch with the horse's balance point and momentum.


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## kayleeloveslaneandlana (Apr 10, 2011)

JDJumper said:


> One of the many reasons why i hate dressage (no offense to anyone who does it) And it doesnt even look right, it looks SOO unnatural!


^^^ That's what I'm talking about.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> Umm I believe you're the one being ignorant. I live in the US I don't know about you but I'm allowed freedom of speech, freedom of expression etc. I'm entitled to my own opinion on dressage and I'd appreciate it if we just stopped this thread because I don't want dressage shoved down my throat because quite frankly I can't swallow pills so I can't swallow dressage no matter how much you want me to. So buh bye. Please stop posting on this thread my initial question is answered so I don't see the point in furthering this thread.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats not how the internet works sweetheart ;-) You are on a public forum. You started this thread with bashing dressage. What did you expect in return? 

Oh and btw, I live in a free country as well. Which means I am entitled to my opinion. My opinion is, there are some people who have a serious hole in their equine education. Which leads myself and others to wanting to correct and educate people so they can understand. 

You can take it or leave it. You also have the choice of just not reading or replying to this thread anymore.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> Ummmm that's not how it works.....you claim freedom of speech....yet you tell everyone else to stop posting on this thread???? It doesn't work that way....


I'm not saying to stop I just saying that the question this thread was about is answered. Therefore there is no use of continuing this thread. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of dressage there is surely another thread for that if not u could start your own. It's just that thus thread has gotten completely off topic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Thats not how the internet works sweetheart ;-) You are on a public forum. You started this thread with bashing dressage. What did you expect in return?
> 
> Oh and btw, I live in a free country as well. Which means I am entitled to my opinion. My opinion is, there are some people who have a serious hole in their equine education. Which leads myself and others to wanting to correct and educate people so they can understand.
> 
> You can take it or leave it. You also have the choice of just not reading or replying to this thread anymore.


as I said before do NOT call me sweetheart. Secondly I didn't start out bashing dressage. I started by asking about the chains trying to get all the info I could. The first answer I got lead to me giving my opinion on dressage. And I chose to leave it. I'll ask my trainer in Saturday about dressage then I'll fix my opinion if their are any flaws which there probably is I'm not saying there isn't. Dressage can be a good riding type but it's just not one I'd chose. Anyways this is probably my last post on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

well this has been....interesting? to observe. I think everyone is getting hot and bothered. I think there were faults on both side of the arguments. There was a bit of bashing going on (in my opinion). I also think its a bit of a stretch to consider everything above a stand to be dressage. To me dressage's essence is in fluid thought out movements that are the result of intense planning. Its not a subject to quick changes (ie direction changes or fast stride adjustments as others have). Dressage is sort of like ballet, trail riding is pond hockey. 

For me, a dyed in the wool trail rider who is considering attempting dressage (the horse loves it). I consider when we bop around on the trails to be not dressage. I leg yield away from a tree not because I want to alter his movement but because holy heck it hurts when I smash my knee. When we are in the ring and I ask for him to move away from leg pressure for the sake of moving from leg pressure then its a dressage movement. I think there is bases in it benefiting horse and rider to explore all different kinds of riding. There are great things offered by many disciplines and perhaps the greatest thing is mental flexibility. 

I can't speak to chains on the legs of horses in dressage, as I have never seen it. I have seen weights used on mini's to increase the height that they raise their legs. I could see some perhaps using it in dressage but I would see that as sort of the same as rolkor (hyper flexion of the head). Its used but not well regarded or respected in general. 

The internet is not based in america so the rules of america do not necessarily apply. That said common curtesy dictates that we be polite, or as my friend would say "Just $%^ be nice".


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> as I said before do NOT call me sweetheart. Secondly I didn't start out bashing dressage. I started by asking about the chains trying to get all the info I could. The first answer I got lead to me giving my opinion on dressage. And I chose to leave it. I'll ask my trainer in Saturday about dressage then I'll fix my opinion if their are any flaws which there probably is I'm not saying there isn't. Dressage can be a good riding type but it's just not one I'd chose. Anyways this is probably my last post on here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sweety, why don't you drop the attitude for a few minutes. I am going to be nice and lose the sarcastic tone for a minute.

The last coaching seminar I was at, one of the biggest topics was the fact that a lot of "new" riders have a huge hole in their education. The reason being, people want results fast.

When I was going through my levels the one thing that was drilled into us is, beginners start on a lunge line. You take the students reins away and they have to learn to ride with just their seat. Students had to be able to halt without using reins, do rising trot no hands and be able to tell the correct diagonal and how to switch it. Then they would get their reins.

This was an amazing method for teaching as it really taught students the importance of using their seat.

However parents didn't like this because it wasn't quick enough results. So a lot of coaches threw in the towel and just tossed students on a horse, as long as they could somewhat steer and walk and trot they started jumping. Why? Because it was results that an uneducated eye would see. However they fail to see that the student is missing the important foundations of riding. Which is teaching the horse to use themselves. No horse should ever knock down a jump under 3 feet if it is using itself correctly. Now there are moments when it happens, but 9 times out of 10 it is rider error. The biggest error causing it? Not being able to have the horse use its hind end and not being able to see the "spot". All these could be avoided if the student was taught how to properly open and close the horses stride.

I am in no way bashing the coaches who skip the basics. I understand the reasons behind it. Parents are not happy as their kid isn't out jumping after a month of lessons. So parents pull the kid out of the school and take them somewhere else, which takes money out of coaches pocket, which means its harder to feed horses. 

The coaches who use this style, I call them mass production coaches/schools. Because all they see is the dollar signs. The huge flaw in this though is that when you are missing key elements in your basics, it becomes dangerous for both the horse and the rider.

You know what that key element is that is missing? Its dressage. Jumping is dressage over fences. Even a hunter course that is quarterline, side, diagonal, side, diagonal. That course should be ridden with big beautiful turns, straightness, opening and closing the stride to get the correct amount of strides in the line, knowing how to use your corners to get you into the right spot at each fence. These are all skills that come from a solid foundation in flat riding.

That is my speech on it. You can take it or you can leave it.

My goal is to work with other coaches and bring riding back to the basics. Teaching these things. And hopefully we can find a way to show parents that while they may not see the results with an uneducated eye, there are results. My way is offering the parents a free lesson or two so they can get the feel of what we are trying to achieve.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

She simply thought that dressage riders use those chains. She misunderstood and the problem has been resolved. She isn't *bashing* she simply made a mistake.
I simply know she was just asking a question, she thought the chains were for dressage and then she realized her mistake, which is why I don't understand why you continue to keep it going.
*sigh*




NBEventer said:


> Sweety, why don't you drop the attitude for a few minutes. I am going to be nice and lose the sarcastic tone for a minute.
> 
> The last coaching seminar I was at, one of the biggest topics was the fact that a lot of "new" riders have a huge hole in their education. The reason being, people want results fast.
> 
> ...


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> She simply thought that dressage riders use those chains. She misunderstood and the problem has been resolved. She isn't *bashing* she simply made a mistake.
> I simply know she was just asking a question, she thought the chains were for dressage and then she realized her mistake, which is why I don't understand why you continue to keep it going.
> *sigh*


I have dropped it. My last post was to explain where everyone else was coming from. Like I said I am no longer using sarcasm and attitude.

I actually had moved away from the OP, my issue was with bsms, until she jumped back in.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Good, that is a good thing for you to do.
People are going to continue to say what they want to say and you saying something just after someone else isn't going to help



NBEventer said:


> I have dropped it. My last post was to explain where everyone else was coming from. Like I said I am no longer using sarcasm and attitude.
> 
> I actually had moved away from the OP, my issue was with bsms, until she jumped back in.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Sweety, why don't you drop the attitude for a few minutes. I am going to be nice and lose the sarcastic tone for a minute.
> 
> The last coaching seminar I was at, one of the biggest topics was the fact that a lot of "new" riders have a huge hole in their education. The reason being, people want results fast.
> 
> ...


This is my last reply becaus I feel I should reply. My barn is nowhere near all about the money. I chose the barn I'm at because they are not. It's 45 mins away from me the ones 5 mins away are all about the money. And I did learn how to ride on a lead rope with out reins. I started out western doing trail riding for about 5 years going really slow. 1 1/2 yrs ago I moved to the barn I'm at now where the people art knowledable about western and English riding. I tire English and prefered it. I rode for a little over 5 yr before o started jumping and cantering so that is no where near rushed. With every horse I've ridden ive made sure that I trust them and they trust me. No I have never trained a horse but that doesn't mean a thing. No I have never done rated shows nor to I plan to I just ride to have fun an because I'd have noting to live for without horses. To sum up my riding had not been rushed nor is my barn all about the money. Lots of people there get discount board or do a work to ride program. I used to do chores at my barn to ride. My barn is no where near in it for the money. The lessons are very cheap and they teach you the basics first and will go next to you on a lead before you get the reins. My riding has not been rushed I do know lots of people have been rushed. I know I'm not the best rider but I promise I will research more into dressage rather than be so closed minded as I realize I have been in my past posts. So goodbye and happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

JDJumper said:


> This is my last reply becaus I feel I should reply. My barn is nowhere near all about the money. I chose the barn I'm at because they are not. It's 45 mins away from me the ones 5 mins away are all about the money. And I did learn how to ride on a lead rope with out reins. I started out western doing trail riding for about 5 years going really slow. 1 1/2 yrs ago I moved to the barn I'm at now where the people art knowledable about western and English riding. I tire English and prefered it. I rode for a little over 5 yr before o started jumping and cantering so that is no where near rushed. With every horse I've ridden ive made sure that I trust them and they trust me. No I have never trained a horse but that doesn't mean a thing. No I have never done rated shows nor to I plan to I just ride to have fun an because I'd have noting to live for without horses. To sum up my riding had not been rushed nor is my barn all about the money. Lots of people there get discount board or do a work to ride program. I used to do chores at my barn to ride. My barn is no where near in it for the money. The lessons are very cheap and they teach you the basics first and will go next to you on a lead before you get the reins. My riding has not been rushed I do know lots of people have been rushed. I know I'm not the best rider but I promise I will research more into dressage rather than be so closed minded as I realize I have been in my past posts. So goodbye and happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am glad to see that you have tried out different things. My last post was actually not directed at you. Its was more of a blanket statement about the entire direction the thread had taken.

I do apologize for being snide with you in previous posts. I am just a bit blunt and to the point and love to be very sarcastic haha. 

I am happy that you are going to open your mind about dressage. Just because you do flat schools a few times a week does not mean you need to get into the higher movements, nor does it mean you have to go out and compete. Its just something that anyone who wants to jump(even at home and little stuff) should have a good understanding of because it can bail you out of some nasty situations once and awhile.


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> She simply thought that dressage riders use those chains. She misunderstood and the problem has been resolved. She isn't *bashing* she simply made a mistake.
> I simply know she was just asking a question, she thought the chains were for dressage and then she realized her mistake, which is why I don't understand why you continue to keep it going.
> *sigh*


thank you! And yes I did think they were for dressage now I know they're not I said I did not like dressage because everything I've heard about it has been awfthings. Perhaps they are rumors, myths, etc. But from what I've heard I dont like it many people on here have made some good points about dressage. I was just being very close-minded because I felt everyone was attacking me for my opinion. I've reread what everyone has said and some are good points and some are not I will try to be more openminded and less biased in the future. And what I think someone mentioned on my YouTube the horse (JD) wasnt doing something with his hindlegs? Could whoever said that give me some tips on how to improve with him? His favorite thing is just to go as fast as possible ( his quarter horse showig lol). If anyone has seen my YouTube (it's on my profile) can u message me on here or on YouTube some tips for jumping? My leg has been slipping back a lot lately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Awesome post JD  

One thing you will learn with time is never assume anything. Always read and research. You said dressage does not look natural. Yet a lot of moves you watch are moves horses do in play. Jumping is more unnatural then dressage(and I am an avid jumper and love to event, hence the name).

I will pm you some things I noticed in your videos


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## JDJumper (Aug 27, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Awesome post JD
> 
> One thing you will learn with time is never assume anything. Always read and research. You said dressage does not look natural. Yet a lot of moves you watch are moves horses do in play. Jumping is more unnatural then dressage(and I am an avid jumper and love to event, hence the name).
> 
> I will pm you some things I noticed in your videos


alright thanks, and like what i meant was the things they do in super advanced dressage doesnt look normal, the basic dressage does seem normal, but like when they have the horses spinning around and such.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Folks,

I have closed this thread. 
I believe the OP's question was answered - that chains are NOT used in Dressage, and are often used on gaited horses to 'improve' their gait. 

Remember that just because you think a discipline is boring, does not mean it is pointless. 
As a Dressage rider myself, I find the pursuit of perfection extremely worthwhile. It takes a certain type of person to be able to gain enjoyment from trying to perfect every aspect of a horse's work - I will spend an hour on walk-halt-walk transitions if I don't feel that they are as good as they can be on that horse. 
The 'bouncy' paces come through the degree of collection that we ask of a horse. We expect more weight to be carried on the hind legs, which lightens the shoulder and allows to gait to become more animated - from there we can start asking for those 'movements' that you see in the Olympics. Its an extremely long process, full of blood, sweat and tears, that people dedicate their lives to. 
This does not mean that Dressage is the be all and end all. I for one certainly don't expect every person to have a desire to learn Dressage to a high level, and I am also of the school of thought that basic riding is just that, basic riding. Any horse should know how to be light to the aids, off the leg, etc. Whether in Dressage, eventing, reining, barrel racing.....

Please respect other people's discplines - if you do not know anything about it, ask questions before assuming that it's boring and pointless.


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