# FRUSTRATING Color... Any thoughts?



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Huh, what a unique and beautiful color. My first instinct would be to call her a grullo but without a dun parent or a dorsal stripe, I don't think that is possible. My next thought was a dark bay but that doesn't fit either because she doesn't appear to have black stockings either. My best guess would be a brown but I couldn't be sure LOL. As for the roaning, I am willing to bet that is a product of her paint pattern, especially since neither of her parents are roan, not to mention that it is also present on her face.

There is a place you can send some of her DNA and have them run a color test but I can't remember where it was. There is a member here called CheyAut that would be able to tell you who runs the tests. That may be your only way to get a definitive answer LOL.

Beautiful horse either way.

Oh, and welcome to the forum .

Edited to add: Oh!! I wonder if she could be a form of Liver Chestnut. That would certainly make sense:think:.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

UC Davis does color testing. Horse Tests


i have no clue what to classify your mare as. Her color sure is intriguing though!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Huh. No idea either, but she's certainly an absolutely gorgeous lady. My vote's with the testing...mostly because I'm curious too.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

I would love to have her tested. That is an interesting idea. I dredged up a picture of her as a baby... She is probably five or six months old here. You can imagine how surprised we were when her creamy white, almost light palomino coat shed out to black! But her tail was white, and her main was black... ??? We were baffled. Then she ROANED, to add weirder onto strange. I've just never seen this pattern of color change! I should definitely get her tested.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Such a lovely mare. Kind of reminds me of the horse "Smokey" in the book by the same name. She is just exquisite.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

What about like a weird silver liver chestnut? lol I have no idea on her shes weird but really pretty!


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

That "roaning" is caused by the Sabino gene, which is also responsible for her white legs & face.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Wow I am frustrated too, and I don't own her lol. I would love to own her should she be looking for a new home.............................

I am working on this one... I am sure I can figure out what colour she is... and then you have to get her tested so I know lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Just confirm for me, is her mane and tail black?


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

I see these colors... but without testing I don't know exactly what it is lol

A Liver Chestnut Roan (or sabino instead of roan)
A Smutty Dun Sabino or roan (does she have stripes on her legs?)
A Smutty Buckskin Sabino or roan
A Silver Mahogany Bay roan (with not a lot of white in the mane and tail)

I personally would go with a Smutty Dun Sabino. Thats what I think she looks most like lol.


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## JazperTheEventer (Jan 31, 2011)

Looks like smoky blue roan, a relative of black. The white baby fur might be a roan thing?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I just don't see Sab to be honest. The white ticking is so beautifully even. She isn't classic roan, there is too much ticking on her face and legs. I am feeling stumped


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## JazperTheEventer (Jan 31, 2011)

mabey smokey black?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If Mom was bay and Daddy was black it's not possible. If Daddy was a smokey himself it is...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

After seeing the baby picture, I am going to put my money on liver chestnut with sabino roaning. Gah, every time I look at the pictures, I fall more and more in love with her color. She reminds me so much of a liver chestnut stud we had years ago, especially in that middle pic.


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## horsegirl1995 (Nov 19, 2010)

I think she's either a liver chestnut or a sooty bay.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Wow, she is a stunner. No guesses on the color from me, but now I'm curious--make sure to let us know if you have her color tested!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

On whoever said roan isn't on the face or some such (sorry don't want to go back and quote  ) it is rare, but it does happen that roan can and will roan the whole horse evenly. It is rare, but it does happen. (just pointing this out! lol)

I am in no way saying that this is going on here, since roan is not possible unless sire or dam are roan.

OP can you post the pedigree of the mare and possibly pics of the sire and dam?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I'd go for a liver chestnut sabino as well. The pointed socks and the wrap under chin blaze tend to be indicators. for sabino. My sabino mare Freyja has large spots of white on her body but also "roan" patches or areas of white ticking almost everywhere else. My sabino colt is mostly solid on his body apart from one belly splash, but each year he has had more white ticking spreading across his body starting at the rump and withers.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

In the spring when she first sheds her wihter coat, is she darker black/blue roan, and acquires a more rusty tone into spring and summer?

I am going to be rebellious and say she is genetically black, but phenotypically a faded black.... with some form of sabino or DW which is causing the roaning.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

In the first picture she looks grulla, but in order to be grulla she'd need a dun factor parent. In the second picture I really don't know, but it does appear that she has ticking form the sabino gene, her blaze and hind leg white indicate sabino as well


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Here are some photos of her during different stages of the year... I'm mostly interested in what everyone thinks her base color is - it would be nice to know for future breeding purposes... I think the general concensus is that she is some type of full body sabino... or something rather, lol! 

Typical Winter Coat:









Typical Spring Coat:









Typical Summer Coat:


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I'll be interested to see what people's thoughts are. She appears to be the same base color as my two foals, just with some more demonstrated sabino. I have gone with the belief my two foals are dark liver chestnuts, though some people have insisted they are fading black/smokey black etc. In both my foals sire is a chestnut and dam is a black/white tobiano/sabino. Thanks for posting this thread!


(just for reference - my Finn, first in early summer, then late summer last year, and a close up of his sabino tail)


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Hmm.. I agree with seeing the sabino part, but her base colour looks like a weird combination of liver chestnut and bay..


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> On whoever said roan isn't on the face or some such (sorry don't want to go back and quote  ) it is rare, but it does happen that roan can and will roan the whole horse evenly. It is rare, but it does happen. (just pointing this out! lol)


Just curious, do you have any pictures of this? I've never seen or heard of a true roan having their head roan out when they weren't also carrying some other gene that causes "roaning".


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, wow, she looks exactly like Judge. My money is still on liver chestnut.

I wish that I had a better picture of him but this is all I've got. He's the head horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Quixotic said:


> Just curious, do you have any pictures of this? I've never seen or heard of a true roan having their head roan out when they weren't also carrying some other gene that causes "roaning".


I do somewhere. It's going to take me sometime to find where though.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Now that I look again in the winter she looks very much like Paisano, a black sabino blanket Spanish Mustang pictured here (it's a link no permission to post):

Flickr: SimratKhalsa's stuff tagged with paisano

But in summer she almost looks bay...I'm think she could be brown or smoky black


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

She is stunning no matter what her color is. My cousin's Tennessee Walker is similar in color - with the big apron face blaze and roaning color on her body that changes with the season's like your horse. Can't remember what color she said Lady Dollar was! I will have to ask her!


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Wow she is a stunner. I have no idea what color she is though, I'm not good at that stuff at all. I didn't even know most of theses colors that people are saying even existed! lol.


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

I didn't read any of this post - just needed to say that I am in LOVE with this horse! She's GORGEOUS!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

ND it was me that pointed out that she probably isn't classic roan due to the roaning on her face/legs. I have heard of horses being all over with classic, but only one or two so left it for the time being. 

In terms of her base colour, I think it is black. She has no visible points to indicate bay, and she has a black mane and tail, which pretty much rules out chestnut.

The good news is, that the general consensus is on colours/patterns which have tests. So you could put us all out of our misery lol.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> If Mom was bay and Daddy was black it's not possible. If Daddy was a smokey himself it is...


I am not that knowledgible on this but I did not think it was possible either. Could she have been exposed to another stallion also?
Lets see pictures of the parents.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

She could be a smoky black if her sire was a smoky black. He would have just passed down the creme gene.


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## Caitlinpalomino (Nov 16, 2010)

wow she is beautiful and a very unique colour!!!! i don't know what colour she is i am very bad with colours!!!!!


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

Idk but she's lovely!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Both parents have no roaning... we crossed them 5 times, producing 1 black, 3 bay medicine hats, and then her bizarre color... her dam was exposed to no other stallions. 

Here is her sire, our late stud Windance Commander:









This is her dam. The medicine hat filly is a full sister to Dove.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, wow. That stud is absolutely breathtaking:shock:.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

I talked to my cousin and she said that Lady Dollar is a bay roan. She also changes colors with the seasons and gets pretty darn dark if stalled. 

Here is a link to a pic of Lady Dollar...

http://www.facebook.com/denise.talbot?ref=mf#!/photo.php?fbid=1528302726093&set=a.1173221289279.27467.1190452321&theater


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I am not a really really savvy color expert so maybe one of you who knows better could answer this. Is it possible for the stud to carry a cream gene and not exhibit the smoky black color? He certainly looks like a solid black to me.

Holly, do you know what colors his parents were? That may help us to know whether he carries a cream gene or not.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

He was definitely an ink black horse... Yes, his sire is a jet black AQHA stallion, and his Dam was a Sorrel Overo. Nothing special there i don't think... He has a palomino somewhere in his background i think???


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, so it may be possible but is fairly unlikely that he is carrying cream. Intersting:think:.

If you decide to have her tested, you will certainly have to let us know the verdict .


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Is there any chance the dad could be a black buckskin, and not a true black horse? In the first picture of your girl, it looked like she had a light dorsal stripe, though I've known a couple of bay horses who have what looks like a shadow of a dorsal stripe, though they are definitely bay. She definitely could not have been grey, because to be grey she had to have had at least one grey parent, and as neither of her parents are grey, neither of them carry the greying gene, so therefore it can't be passed on to her. He's a very pretty stallion, and I love you mare.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Sorry for the double post, Holly I totally missed your reply to the post as to the colors of his parents, though I am still curious if they maybe are black buckskin, but I doubt it.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

She's a brown roan. 

No liver chestnut or smoky black, etc. No signs of sabino gene - no super ragged or irregular white markings, but it's very popular these days for people to think sabino any time they see white on a horse because sabino is kind of a desirable, popular thing these days.

Roaning often doesn't get to the head or roan the entire body evenly. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Brown is a color that roaning can happen on top of, as it can happen on top of most colors.

A brown horse can have black points, or not. 

It's not a bay, regardless of point color, unless it has at least some bay (reddish) color in the coat.

However, quite a few people will call a brown horse a bay, as long as it has visibly darker points (mane, tail, legs, etc). Technically that's not correct but it is fairly common for people to do.

Foals usually have really weird color changes as babies when they are going to roan, generally a lot lighter than their adult color.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

Em, no, I looked at all the pics again, the white markings are a little irregular and that under the chin marking is seen in sabino, roaning on a sabino tends to be a little more irregular and not always cover the entire horse, so it could be a sabino gene being expressed.

So a brown sabino is possible, brown roan is possible.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Maybe it's because I seeing her on my phone, but she just looks like a black sabino. Many blacks fade, which is all it looks to me. VERY pretty mare!

Smokey black is just black with a cream gene, and doesn't have to look any different than any other black. 

This horse CAN'T be roan, dun (that includes grulla), or gray, it's not possible. And honestly I don't see any of these colors anyway, I'll look again on my computer when I get home, but she just looks like a black sabino to me (and I'm 100% about sabino).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm not. It's possible. 

I think people need to try to remember that rather little of the genetics of white markings/white hairs is even known at all, let alone well understood.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

According to the OP, neither of her parents were roan. Therefore, it is not possible for her to be a roan. And the white extending past her chin & avoiding her eyes absolutely screams Sabino.
Also, the exact genetics behind brown are still a bit fuzzy. We do know it's caused by a form of the agouti gene, which is the same gene that causes bay.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Agreed, the only roaning possible would be a result of the Sabino gene since neither parent was roan and she said there are no roans in the lineage.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

"No chance because there are no roans in the pedigree"

Oh I don't know. It acts like a dominant gene, so that's the most likely thing, but most horse's ancestors colors aren't that well known as to color, many people seem to miss roaning on light colors such as palomino so roans can be missed, and new genes that cause white hairs can crop up at any time and behave differently than the classic roaning pattern and can also cause white hair mixtures, like rabicano, etc.

Additionally, a horse can be both sabino and roan, further confusing things. I think that occurs often in Tennessee walkers, there is a pattern that at least looks like both, we used to call it 'buttermilk roan'.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

slc, even if roan is a dominant gene, one of her parents has to carry it in order for this mare to be a roan. Since her parents obviously aren't roans, she cannot be. She's most likely sabino.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

It is stated that the parents were black & bay. While roan is not always so noticeable on lighter coloured horses, the gene does not hide. Unless pictures of her sire & dam prove that their colours were mis-identified, this horse is not a classic roan. Yes, it is possible that other genes are at work in addition to Sabino, but it is not classic roan.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

I understand, but as I said, there are other genes that cause white hairs than either roaning or sabino (rabicano, frosty, etc), and aside from that, new genes and patterns pop up all the time.


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## EmilyandNikki (Sep 7, 2010)

So let me get this straight. Your mare has paint in her pedigree right?
If that's the case then the irregular white points are caused by the sabino gene hands down. There is no roan!

Now, onto her base color. She looks like a radical color changer to me, and from the colors she turns, it means that her base coat is some form of brown. She reminds me of a brown bay... 
are you able to get a photo of just her back for us just to make sure there is no dorsal stripe?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

slc said:


> I understand, but as I said, there are other genes that cause white hairs than either roaning or sabino (rabicano, frosty, etc), and aside from that, new genes and patterns pop up all the time.


I don't think she's rabicano because the "roaning" on rabicanos usually centralizes on the barrel and doesn't usually go up the neck. And most of them have **** tails.


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## MagicDestiny (Dec 4, 2010)

The second picture of your horse looks similar in color to the horse at the very bottom of the page in this link: Winners Circle Miss Arizona Pine. (not sure what color you would call that? Chocolate? Brown? Bay?) She doesn't have the roaning your horse exhibits but the colors are kind of similar. Also, there is a horse boarded at our barn who is a light, light chestnut with roaning all over her body including her face, she doesn't look like a typical "roan" but she still exhibits roaning. So I'm not sure, maybe your horse is "chocolate" which I'm assuming is a variation of bay, with a gene that produces roaning all over the body? Or maybe she's a dark, liver chestnut? Or maybe she's just a strangely expressed black?

The horse on this link at post #129 was DNA tested black but darned if he doesn't look it!

Unusual colors and markings? in General Discussion (Horse Related) Forum

Whatever color she is, she's gorgeous and has a very unique color! I also vote you should get her tested and report back! lol


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

A Liver Chestnut Roan (or sabino instead of roan)
i am thinking it could be this!
A Smutty Dun Sabino or roan (does she have stripes on her legs?)
it can't be dun because she has no dun or roan parents
A Smutty Buckskin Sabino or roan
no cream gene as the stud is to jet black to have a cream gene
A Silver Mahogany Bay roan (with not a lot of white in the mane and tail)
and i don't think she has any points

my guess is either with Liver Chestnut, Fading black, or brown, does she get lighter coloring around her flanks, eyes and muzzle??


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>no cream gene as the stud is to jet black to have a cream gene_

I reralize that MOST smokey blacks are an "off" shade.... but there is no such thing as being "too black looking" to have a cream gene-- cream simply does not phenotypically affect all blacks the same way. Here are some "smokey blacks"-- their shades do vary a bit, but I would not look at them and automatically say "OH thats obviously a smokey black"-- yet all of them do have one copy of cream.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Exactly ETW.

Smokey black is definitely a hard one to "get" just by looking at it.


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## FTFOTB (Feb 13, 2011)

She may be a smoky black...in which case, her 'black' sire would be a smoky black as well (instead of a true black).

ETA: You said she's APHA? On APHA's website, you can view the Paint ancestors, so maybe there are more clues there?


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## Haylee (Feb 2, 2011)

IDK what he is but he is BEAUTIFUL!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

FTFOTB said:


> She may be a smoky black...in which case, her 'black' sire would be a smoky black as well (instead of a true black).
> 
> ETA: You said she's APHA? On APHA's website, you can view the Paint ancestors, so maybe there are more clues there?


The pictures on the APHA site aren't always the greatest, but it would sure give an idea.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I was just creeping some local sites and found this foal. This filly has roaning on her head.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

What a unique color, P. I wonder if she's an Appy, maybe varnish roan.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

They have no appys. It's just quarter horses. Her sire was black (or so they think. I kind of think smoky black because another foal looks like a very smutty buckskin rather than black, as it is listed) and her dam is a blue roan. 

She's the most roaned horse I've seen.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

On my home computer now and she still looks like either a brown or faded black sabino.

I think the fact that it was given the name 'smokey black' is what misleads people to think it has to look different then normal black, it doesn't always work that way, you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking if her sire was smokey black. 

You can test her to satisfy your curriousity, but she just looks like a brown or faded black to me. The roaning is from the sabino, pretty common, no big mystery there. Generally sabino is my least favorite pinto pattern, but she is just the sabino I would LOVE!


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## SallyRC123 (Aug 22, 2008)

Oh! Gimme gimme gimme, she's gorgeous. Just sayin


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Poseidon said:


> I was just creeping some local sites and found this foal. This filly has roaning on her head.


I'd like to see what he looks like shed out my roan gets super white like that in spring and white creeps in on her face, then it sheds off


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## lyssabear (Feb 18, 2011)

Liver chestnut is what i think she could possibly be


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the sire was a smokey black. I have had black horses that were black as a crow and produced grullos (with no dorsal stripe and produced buckskins. I have also seen pearlinos from smokey blacks when they were bred to a palomino. I have a smutty buckskin gelding now (Quarter Pony) out of a smokey black mare. He also shows the champaign gene as he has amber eyes. His smokey black dam also had amber colored eyes.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Cherie said:


> I think the sire was a smokey black. I have had black horses that were black as a crow and produced grullos (with no dorsal stripe and produced buckskins. I have also seen pearlinos from smokey blacks when they were bred to a palomino. I have a smutty buckskin gelding now (Quarter Pony) out of a smokey black mare. He also shows the champaign gene as he has amber eyes. His smokey black dam also had amber colored eyes.


:? You do realize that grullo is not a cream dilute correct? It would be from the dun gene and that would not hide on a black horse. So the grullo the black horse produced... the dun would have had to come from the other half of the equation. 

Champagne does not "hide" either as far as I know. Dilutes can and do have lighter eyes. I have a palomino with amber eyes in the pasture right now.


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

Lovelylovelylovely! A real beauty you have here, I have never seen a color quite like hers, best bet is to get her tested.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I believe the buckskin colored gelding I have is a champagne as I believe his mother was. I did not know her parentage. He was born with bark blue eyes that turned amber and had many Champagne characteristics. I do know that his color did not come from his sire.

I realize that grullo as referred to by AQHA must have a dun factor, but the same color is very evident in many champagne horses. 

Have you been to the International Champagne Horse Registry website? There are many horses pictured there that are the exact color of this horse. I think they have around 600 photos in all. This registry calls them 'Classic' if they modify the black gene and 'Sable' if they modify the brown gene. Then, you can also have the roaning seen with the rabicano or any other 'pattern gene'.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Grullo, no ifs ands or buts, _is only_ when a horse is carrying black and dun. 

The horse in the OP does not look champagne to me or I would have suggested it before.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Grullo/Grulla is a term that means black dun, similarly "dun" usually refers to bay dun


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## katiekins224 (Jul 29, 2010)

I have never seen such a beautiful color! It is so unique...please let us know if/when you get her tested!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Just confirm for me, is her mane and tail black?


her tail is both black and white, as it looks from the picture..

What a STUNNING mare. Holy moly. Stunning.


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## hlygrl (Jan 3, 2011)

To me she looks chestnut with 100% sabino gene . Those high with socks with jagged edges and the jagged blaze and all the sabino tickleing screams sabino  She is GORGEOUS . Animal Genetics does testing as well


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