# 6 month old conformation



## carshon

I will give this a go. We just joined the gaited horse world 4 years ago. And have done a lot of research on the breed and bloodlines of our horses.

1. The colt is young and butt high - that is OK - just pointing it out
2. The colt looks very post legged in the back. It may be how he is standing in the picture. This will make it harder for him to get his legs underneath of him and get a really nice smooth gait out of him
3. The colt has a very short back- ideally a horse (any breed) should be even by thirds in conformation. his back is very short with a high wither. This could make saddle fit an issue in the future. I have a very short backed TWH mare (Grand Daughter of Ebonies Masterpiece and Midnight Sun) and Haynes bloodlines in there too. She is very short backed. Saddle fit has been an issue but her gait is to die for!
4. The colt appears to have a shorter thicker neck with a thick throatlatch. This probably will not affect his riding overly much but if shown it is not as pleasing a long more refined neck and throatlatch.
5. He appears to have good bone and it not too light
6. His shoulder angle looks good and is not too steep

All in all not a bad looking colt - and some of those things may change a little as he grows up and his body matures.


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## whisper2myhorse

Is this picture any better? Can you tell anything else for this?


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## whisper2myhorse

Pedigree 
BLUE STREAK DLK #21900536 
(DLK Blu Double x She’s Got The Luck) Blue roan colt - 15.1 hands
Foaled June/2019 (Blood typed)

Sire Pedigree:
DLK Blu Double
Reflection In Blue RSW
Frostys Reflection
Frostys Perfection R.
Elwanda
Gen's Celebrated Lady
Generator's Genuine Jazz
Celebrity Lady
Double Visions Anne Okley
Ole Blue's Double Vision
Bum's Souvenir
Mack's Lady Bum
Ole Blue's Lady
Bum's Souvenir
Masterpiece Lady S.A.
BLUE STREAK DLK #21900536

She’s Got The Luck Dam's Pedigree:

Luck Of The Doc
Doc's High Tribute
Dr. Elmer
Anne's Mystery
One Pushy Lady
The Pusher CG
Ebonys Merry Society
Two Timing Thief
Pusher's Jewel Thief
The Pusher CG
Mark's Black Jewel
Gen's Two Timer
Prides Generator
Brenda's Threat

I wished I knew how to add their pictures so I could get in put about their confirmation. If anybody knows I would like to know how.....


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## loosie

From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.

Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.


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## Foxhunter

I disagree with not tying a youngster. I tied mine alongside their dams from about a week old - *always supervised.*

What I would never do is to tie *any* horse to a gate. 

When you have seen the damage a horse can do to itself when it pulls back and the gate gets entangled with them then you would either. 

I have picked up four horses for the hunt that were destroyed after being tied to a gate. .


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## whisper2myhorse

carshon said:


> I will give this a go. We just joined the gaited horse world 4 years ago. And have done a lot of research on the breed and bloodlines of our horses.
> 
> 1. The colt is young and butt high - that is OK - just pointing it out
> 2. The colt looks very post legged in the back. It may be how he is standing in the picture. This will make it harder for him to get his legs underneath of him and get a really nice smooth gait out of him
> 3. The colt has a very short back- ideally a horse (any breed) should be even by thirds in conformation. his back is very short with a high wither. This could make saddle fit an issue in the future. I have a very short backed TWH mare (Grand Daughter of Ebonies Masterpiece and Midnight Sun) and Haynes bloodlines in there too. She is very short backed. Saddle fit has been an issue but her gait is to die for!
> 4. The colt appears to have a shorter thicker neck with a thick throatlatch. This probably will not affect his riding overly much but if shown it is not as pleasing a long more refined neck and throatlatch.
> 5. He appears to have good bone and it not too light
> 6. His shoulder angle looks good and is not too steep
> 
> All in all not a bad looking colt - and some of those things may change a little as he grows up and his body matures.



Carshon, What time of gait do you thank this colt will have from his confirmation?


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## whisper2myhorse

loosie said:


> From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.
> 
> Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.


Loosie, The previous owner had a special set up that he had fixed up to tie his young colts that they couldn't get hurt and get used to the pressure. He had his trainer already tying him up to get use to the pressure before I bought him. The previous owner was getting him ready to show him in halter class, if he kept him. I think it was more for the colt to have the experience. 

I have had him in cross ties with his halter and he done very well with that. He stood crossed tied just long enough for me to brush him down, left of his legs and tap on them. He seems very good natured right now and my previous experience is exposing to as many things as possible and let him get use to it. I introduce one thing at a time and review or repeat the same things over and over in a very steady routine. Colts learn a lot during the first 2 years of their lives and part of their play can be desensitizing them to so many different things. A large round ball, jolly balls and even cones can be set up into their play routine. Every lesson is kept to short increments with a set goal in mind. Every time you work with a weanling, yearling or horse you are training them. I want mind to learn respect, trust and patience.


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## The Equinest

I judge horses based on the skeletal structure - we call this "Functional Conformation". It's based on studying many different disciplines and then applying the knowledge of horse a horse moves, why he moves that way, and what is causing him to move that way. Do keep that in mind, as many people judge conformation in many different ways(particularly the "uphill v. downhill" debate), but I've found this to be the most scientifically sound and best explained method so far that actually gives results. If you're interested in what exactly it is, here's the basic PDF guide on functional conformation: https://www.hcbc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2018-Functional-Confirmation-draft-revision.pdf

First off, your youngster is rather butthigh but that's just a growing stage, so unless the dam and sire are butthigh I wouldn't worry about it. He'll level out once he starts maturing a bit more. He has a good neck emergence, located above the point of shoulder. According to functional conformation, this is one of the "big three" that we use to tell if a horse is uphill or downhill. A horse with a neck emergence lower than the point of shoulder will have more trouble lightening his forehand and shifting weight back on to the hindquarters - which is essential for longevity, as a rider adding weight to the horse's back and the unnatural position that many horses are ridden in causes the back to hollow, head to raise, and stride to shorten, in turn causing more impaction on the spine and eventually even can be the cause of kissing spine and other issues. In functional conformation, we judge based on how well a horse can do it's job without pain or hindrance due to conformation. 

One fault this is poking out to me is that he's sickle hocked. In my opinion, I'd rather have a slightly post-legged horse than a sickle hocked one due to the fact that sickle hocks add more strain to the horse's tendons and ligaments, since he cannot align the bony column under himself to help hold himself up - he would have to stand camped out to get his hocks angled correctly, and then that would defeat the purpose as the legs are too far out behind him to hold a considerable amount of weight. Your horse only appears a slighter degree sickle hocked, as long as his health is taken into considerable and he's not pushed beyond his limits I think he'll be fine. Post-legged should also be defined from being sickle hocked - post-legged refers to the too-straight angulation of the hock, while sickle hocked is the over-angulation of the hock. For comparison: http://cruzminihorses.com/images/miniature-horse-hocks-358x167_1_.jpg

He also lacks musculature on the neck, which makes him appear to be slightly ewe necked but I don't think he has a true ewe neck. It looks like a muscling issue rather than a skeletal issue to my eyes. (Do consider though, a young horse will often be poorly muscled until he fills out a bit more so this is nothing to be worried about or out of the ordinary. If he continues to have an incorrectly muscled neck throughout his life it's likely due to a high and tense headset, and training will be needed to teach him to relax and stretch out some.) 

Overall, he has a nice uphill build. I'd be very excited to see how he fills out and what he looks like as a better muscled 2 or 3 year old, even with the sometimes gangly gaited horse type he looks like he'll turn out nicely with correct work.  His cannons are slightly long for my taste personally, but that's nothing that will affect him in work really unless you're planning on GP dressage.


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## loosie

Not seeing sickle hocked at all myself, unless you're talking of the right hind, which I think is likely more postural than 'structural', assuming any is truly structural. That's something I did miss earlier, that in all 3 pics(inc the avatar one) he is standing with his right hind forward(if they were both forward & weighted, that would be 'sickle hocks'). Of course, this may be just a coincidental 'moment in time' thing, but if he habitually stands this way, I'd be thinking there was a hip prob or such(common in foals to have hip &/or shoulder probs from 'birth trauma') & I'd be looking for a chiropractic vet to see to him.

Another thing I missed is that he's tied to a gate! - ditto to Foxhunter on that note! If you are going to tie a horse firm, it must be to a firm, unbreakable structure, like a wall, a deeply bedded post etc. By all means, I believe babies should be taught to yield to pressure, to 'tie' calmly & reliably. But that needs to be done in a safe manner, without them actually finding themselves trapped & feeling the need to fight for their lives. Hopefully that was the way his previous owner went about it. I would not tie ANY horse firm, unless they've had a number of lessons learning it's all OK without the risk, and I wouldn't tie a baby 'hard' until they were _very_ reliable about yielding to halter pressure & comfortable & relaxed about standing firm. The thing with youngsters is, the bones of their neck are some of the last to 'close' and harden, and they are quite fragile when immature. So the main thing is teaching them well first, before putting them in that situation, but as 'stuff happens' & even well trained horses can panic & fight, so I just feel why risk it, with easily damaged youngsters. Seen more than a couple of horses put down for 'wobblers', which was attributed to being tied & fighting...


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## carshon

@whisper2myhorse I am not sure how his gait will be - as I said I see a colt that appears to be post legged in the back. From my research in walking horses I have found that a nice gaited horse will have a more pronounced hock that allows them to really reach under themselves. I don't see that in this colt. His gait may be a little shorter or choppier. I have seen your post where you mention that he racks in the field- I am not as familiar with a racking horse as I am with one that running walks. Racking is more of a speed gait and as I had mentioned most riders in my area do not ride with speed in mind as the trails would not be safe at high rates of speed. If he was bred from show stock he may have higher leg action in the front and not be able to gait as fast as a horse with a more sweeping motion to their gait. That is hard to tell from a picture as he has a nice slope to his shoulder.

I am not familiar with any of his bloodlines - this is not a critique just a comment. I do not show at the breed level for TWH and no longer get the Voice as I never really read it and I am against Big Lick and did not want to support it by getting the Voice. If you are familiar with his lines and how those horses move that would be one of the best indicators of how this colt will move as an adult.


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## The Equinest

He's standing with the hocks over-angled in both pictures, and in the first as he's standing with all four legs weighted then you can see the true position of the hocks. Postural would indicate pain, and you can often tell a posture issue from a conformational issue as a postural issue will cause a degree of stiffness throughout the whole body. The horse will also often stand with his neck outstretched(especially if it's an issue in the hocks) to attempt to shift more weight forward and off the hindquarters. This horse is standing sickle hocked and even if he were to be set with his legs back, they would still be over-angulated, and as he does not look tense and stiff, I would call this a conformational fault rather than a posture issue. Also it may be noted that sickle hocks are extremely common in gaited horses due to a supposed belief that it makes it easier for the horse to reach under and gait(which is incorrect, as sickle hocks merely cause the illusion that the horse is actually reaching under).


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## whisper2myhorse

The Equinest said:


> He's standing with the hocks over-angled in both pictures, and in the first as he's standing with all four legs weighted then you can see the true position of the hocks. Postural would indicate pain, and you can often tell a posture issue from a conformational issue as a postural issue will cause a degree of stiffness throughout the whole body. The horse will also often stand with his neck outstretched(especially if it's an issue in the hocks) to attempt to shift more weight forward and off the hindquarters. This horse is standing sickle hocked and even if he were to be set with his legs back, they would still be over-angulated, and as he does not look tense and stiff, I would call this a conformational fault rather than a posture issue. Also it may be noted that sickle hocks are extremely common in gaited horses due to a supposed belief that it makes it easier for the horse to reach under and gait(which is incorrect, as sickle hocks merely cause the illusion that the horse is actually reaching under).



Oh, no! What kind of pain do you think it is? What do you recommend me to do? I called the vet right after I read this comment and have an appointment to get him checked out on December the 27th. Should I have him checked out before then? Should I have my farrier to look at him. Is sickle hocked a major concern, can a farrier help with that? I know that you stated it was common in Tennessee Walking Horses. Will this mess his gait up or can he learn to over come it?


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## The Equinest

@whisper2myhorse

No, the point was that he's not standing due to a postural pain. It's a conformational fault - an inborn fault in bone structure that cannot be changed. You cannot alter skeletal positioning and ratios, after all. I don't think he's in pain - he looks quite relaxed and happy, actually. 

Sickle hocked of his degree are not a major concern in my opinion. What they will do is make it harder for him to reach under properly and round his back, so I'd suggest working "long and low" with him when the time comes for riding. It'll help him learn to stretch out and strengthen his back as well as the rest of his body. Ground poles also never hurt.  One concern I do have is the type of bit - many people are under the impression that a gaited horse must be ridden in a gaited bit and with a high headset. This is entirely based on showring fashion and also entirely false. A gaited horse can be ridden in any bit(my MFT mare went in a short shank curb for years as a fully trained and finished horse, and she gaited beautifully), and they absolutely do _not_ need an absurdly high headset just as any horse does not. My MFT traveled wonderfully without the high headset and gaited bit, and in fact a high headset will hollow the back and make it even harder for him to reach under himself and drive. 

As for a vet check - honestly, it wouldn't hurt to get a vet's opinion. It never really does, but unless you're concerned about how he's acting or if you think he's in pain - I wouldn't bother with it right now. He does not look at all to be in discomfort from the photos. I myself have a rather sickle-hocked Peruvian Paso/Welsh pony cross that can get sore hocks from hard work, but he's rarely lame at all from regular riding or work. It's more something to watch for than something to worry about, really, unless you're planning on reining or something of the sort that causes a lot of stress on the hocks. As a regular riding horse or lower-level competitor, I think he'll be absolutely fine. I am sorry if I caused you any worry, I didn't mean to come off as if I thought he was in pain. I was actually denying that.  For farrier work, just make sure have a good one that doesn't chop off the heel. If he has no heel and sickle hocks... that's lameness waiting to happen. As for gaiting - he'll be fine. Many gaited breeders actually breed for sickle hocks(though I consider it a fault, due what I explained in my first post), so I can guarantee you that most TW are sickle hocked and they still gait just fine.  

Happy riding!


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## whisper2myhorse

Foxhunter said:


> I disagree with not tying a youngster. I tied mine alongside their dams from about a week old - *always supervised.*
> 
> What I would never do is to tie *any* horse to a gate.
> 
> When you have seen the damage a horse can do to itself when it pulls back and the gate gets entangled with them then you would either.
> 
> I have picked up four horses for the hunt that were destroyed after being tied to a gate. .



He is not tied to a gate. I would never tie any horse to a gate, especially not a young colt, or even a seasoned horse. He is not tied to anything. I do have his halter on him. If you look at the picture closer you will see that his lead rope is just hanging on the gate to keep it off the ground. I was wondering why someone had mentioned about tying horses up. I do believe in using cross ties when they are young but I am usually standing their brushing them in the cross ties.


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## whisper2myhorse

carshon said:


> @whisper2myhorse I am not sure how his gait will be - as I said I see a colt that appears to be post legged in the back. From my research in walking horses I have found that a nice gaited horse will have a more pronounced hock that allows them to really reach under themselves. I don't see that in this colt. His gait may be a little shorter or choppier. I have seen your post where you mention that he racks in the field- I am not as familiar with a racking horse as I am with one that running walks. Racking is more of a speed gait and as I had mentioned most riders in my area do not ride with speed in mind as the trails would not be safe at high rates of speed. If he was bred from show stock he may have higher leg action in the front and not be able to gait as fast as a horse with a more sweeping motion to their gait. That is hard to tell from a picture as he has a nice slope to his shoulder.
> 
> I am not familiar with any of his bloodlines - this is not a critique just a comment. I do not show at the breed level for TWH and no longer get the Voice as I never really read it and I am against Big Lick and did not want to support it by getting the Voice. If you are familiar with his lines and how those horses move that would be one of the best indicators of how this colt will move as an adult.



Yes, the rack is shorter chopper gait, and it is faster. I enjoy the gait. So yes, the may be build for the gait that I prefer. I am excited about that.


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## whisper2myhorse

The Equinest said:


> @whisper2myhorse
> 
> No, the point was that he's not standing due to a postural pain. It's a conformational fault - an inborn fault in bone structure that cannot be changed. You cannot alter skeletal positioning and ratios, after all. I don't think he's in pain - he looks quite relaxed and happy, actually.
> 
> Sickle hocked of his degree are not a major concern in my opinion. What they will do is make it harder for him to reach under properly and round his back, so I'd suggest working "long and low" with him when the time comes for riding. It'll help him learn to stretch out and strengthen his back as well as the rest of his body. Ground poles also never hurt.  One concern I do have is the type of bit - many people are under the impression that a gaited horse must be ridden in a gaited bit and with a high headset. This is entirely based on showring fashion and also entirely false. A gaited horse can be ridden in any bit(my MFT mare went in a short shank curb for years as a fully trained and finished horse, and she gaited beautifully), and they absolutely do _not_ need an absurdly high headset just as any horse does not. My MFT traveled wonderfully without the high headset and gaited bit, and in fact a high headset will hollow the back and make it even harder for him to reach under himself and drive.
> 
> As for a vet check - honestly, it wouldn't hurt to get a vet's opinion. It never really does, but unless you're concerned about how he's acting or if you think he's in pain - I wouldn't bother with it right now. He does not look at all to be in discomfort from the photos. I myself have a rather sickle-hocked Peruvian Paso/Welsh pony cross that can get sore hocks from hard work, but he's rarely lame at all from regular riding or work. It's more something to watch for than something to worry about, really, unless you're planning on reining or something of the sort that causes a lot of stress on the hocks. As a regular riding horse or lower-level competitor, I think he'll be absolutely fine. I am sorry if I caused you any worry, I didn't mean to come off as if I thought he was in pain. I was actually denying that.  For farrier work, just make sure have a good one that doesn't chop off the heel. If he has no heel and sickle hocks... that's lameness waiting to happen. As for gaiting - he'll be fine. Many gaited breeders actually breed for sickle hocks(though I consider it a fault, due what I explained in my first post), so I can guarantee you that most TW are sickle hocked and they still gait just fine.
> 
> Happy riding!



Thank you for clearing that up for me. I think that I am so concerned about this little guy, that I immediately called my vet's office. They are use to me calling for everything. It is just about time for his next vaccination anyway so it's not a big deal. I have been concerned about him resting or favoring that one leg, fetlock, hock or pastern. Not quite sure what, I think that is probably why I thought he might be in some pain. He hasn't been getting much exercise because I been keeping him stalled up until he adjusts to the new surrounds. Also, I can't be here during the day to put him up out of the weather that has been brutal lately. That would explain for the lack of muscle and swollen hocks. I also have been concerned because he seems to be too laid back. He doesn't get excited about anything right now. I have never had a young colt to be this calm, he hasn't really spooked at anything. Not that I am complaining it just seems abnormal so I am worrying there might be something wrong with him.


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## whisper2myhorse

loosie said:


> From that one, blurry, not square pic, single angle, not to mention 6mo horse, can't tell you much. He's 'bum-high' - to be expected of a youngster, he's got pretty straight hind legs, but that also could well be his developmental stage.
> 
> Oh & hopefully you haven't tied him solid - I would not tie a youngster, as they're too easily hurt if they fight it.



He isn't tied to the gate at all, his lead rope is hanging on the gate but he doesn't have a lead rope on him. I think it is the color of the gate, I had to look at it closer with my glasses on . I would never tie any horse to a gate. He is just looking at the horses in the other pasture. This is the first time I had let him in a few days due to our weather. He was taking it all in.


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## whisper2myhorse

I looked at all the pictures again to see what you all were seeing and mentioning about his conformation. I watched a few videos by the belated Brenda Imus about conformation. I have decided when I am off this weekend, I will get out a folding yard stick and try to reevaluate his conformation. My friend that was an expert on quarter horse conformation said that she didn't notice him being to much set or (sickle-hocked). She thought he had a really good conformation for a young colt. I personally have no idea. I know that he has stolen my heart and I just want him to be a healthy, respectful, smooth gaited horse. I will do what ever I can personally do to help make that happen. 

She did say that she will look at the pictures that I posted, (which I just sent to her) and get me some feed back on them. 

I will try to send some better ones after Christmas. The weather is suppose to be better.


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## The Equinest

"Square" stance puts the body into tension in my opinion, and doesn't help with judging conformation. What's more, you can judge the basic aspects of horse conformation as young as 3 weeks really. The things such as the lumbosacral gap(LS gap) do not change, nor does the neck emergence or "pillar of support"(essentially just a line showing how much substance is placing weight on the front legs). Using these three things, we can judge foal conformation, though the body may change some, the basic skeletal structure will not. 

But moving on from that - he's really not that butthigh when you draw a line from bum to withers. I'll bet he'll even out when he gets older and his front catches up. As you can see by the lines I'd drawn, I'd 100% call him sickle hocked. You should be able to draw a line from bum down to the ground and the lower leg's angle should be close if not matching that angle. For example, here's a horse who's 100% not sickle hocked: 










I also marked the neck emergence(the upper line orange line) in comparison to the point of shoulder(the lower orange line), showing that he indeed has a very nice neck emergence. 










The image _is_ blurry, but conformation is skeletal structure not muscular definition so I think for the very basics of horse conformation judging, it's fine. You can easily see the angulation of a leg or the neck emergence with this level of image quality, though you may not be able to judge the LS gap quite correctly.


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## The Equinest

Dang, the images don't like me. :| 

Non-sickle hocked horse link:

http://riveroaksthoroughbreds.com/photos/calebsposse1thumb.jpg

Your horse: 

https://i.ibb.co/j4QvCG8/lakota-wanting-to-go-back-to-the-barn-1.jpg 

^^Do note, the line for judging the sickle hock is slightly angled out, but even if it were vertical he'd still be considered sickle hocked. I had to draw with my finger and it's a little difficult.


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## whisper2myhorse

I was wanting to show him in halter classes this summer as a yearling, would this put him at a disadvantage? I personally won't be show him, but I have a niece that wanted to show him for 4H Shows. I had told her we could work together to prepare him but now I don't know.


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## The Equinest

I wouldn't really say so, no. At least not in my area, here we're judged more on technique than anything. As long as you work on training I don't see why you shouldn't. I can't speak for more populated areas, however. My area's shows are about 25 people total.


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## loosie

The Equinest said:


> He's standing with the hocks over-angled in both pictures, and in the first as he's standing with all four legs weighted then you can see the true position of the hocks.


OK, you obviously have a different understanding than me about this. I just drew vertical lines on OP's pics, to see if my 'eye was in' and as the cannons(well, the left one) are perfectly vertical, not angled at all, and the back of it is directly below the point of buttock, that means to me his confo is not sickle hocked. And the avatar pic actually shows the right one vertical, below his buttock, while the left is vertical but further back - opposite to the normal definition of 'sickle hocked', in my understanding. Can you please explain what it is you're calling sickle hocked? 

If anything, I thought his legs looked a little straight, but have noticed that 'bum high' developmental phase often seems to go along with that, and horses don't necessarily end up 'post legged' when they level out. Therefore that wouldn't worry me.



> Postural would indicate pain, and you can often tell a posture issue from a conformational issue as a postural issue will cause a degree of stiffness throughout the whole body.


Yes. Depends what the problem as to how 'stiff' or otherwise they may be though, esp when just standing relaxed. He may be 'stiff' or such if he were made to stand square. I don't believe it's possible to say that just from a few average still photos. You'd have to see the horse in person, watch him move. Therefore I wouldn't rule out physical or treatable probs or say it's 'just conformational'(meaning innate, unchangeable) from this.


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## loosie

> I have been concerned about him resting or favoring that one leg, fetlock, hock or pastern. Not quite sure what, I think that is probably why I thought he might be in some pain.


OK, if he is favouring it, then there's a fair bet there is an issue there IME. Unless your vets are bodywork specialists (chiro, physio, etc), they may not have the knowledge to find/treat whatever issue. I'd be looking for a chiropractic vet personally.


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## QtrBel

whisper2myhorse said:


> I was wanting to show him in halter classes this summer as a yearling, would this put him at a disadvantage? I personally won't be show him, but I have a niece that wanted to show him for 4H Shows. I had told her we could work together to prepare him but now I don't know.





He would have to be cut to be shown in 4H shows that I am aware of as he would only be eligible to be shown uncut in the calendar year he was foaled. For other shows (breed, local) there is usually an age restriction on who shows them.


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## farmpony84

I can never tell when they are babies. I don't think many babies are very "cute" conformationally. to me they always look chunky and mis-proportioned until they are at least a year. But I think yours has a cute face and color!


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## SilverMaple

He should be fine for 4-H, but you'll have to geld him. 4-H doesn't allow stallions over the age of 6 months, at least around here. 

Whether he will do well or not depends on the judge. In most areas, 4-H judges are stock horse people, so he will have a disadvantage being gaited as they tend to be presented differently. Your 4-H leader will let you know if he/she would prefer all the kids show their horses as if they were stock horses (even if they aren't ) or if the kids show their horses according to the customs and standards for that breed.


Conformationally -- to me, he looks slightly sickle-hocked-- not severe, and very common in gaited horses. Feed him appropriately, let him grow up slowly (don't stuff him full of high-calorie feed) and see what he looks like in a year or two. I personally don't think he's stallion material, but if you wish to keep him intact and see how he turns out, there's no harm in it as long as you keep him away from open mares, behind quality fencing, and stay on top of his handling and training so he stays mannerly and then re-evaluate in the future.


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## loosie

You're seeing sickle hocked too SM? i have always understood this means cannons are not vertical, under the hock, but angled forward. Hock is also generally in front of point of buttock. Please explain what sickle hocked means to you guys?


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## SilverMaple

His hocks are going to trail out behind him when that rear cannon is vertical. When he stands with his hocks under the point of the buttock, the cannons will not be vertical, but angled forward. That, to me, is what sickle hocks are. 



He's not bad-- his conformation is very typical for a TWH. But it is there at this point of his growth. I've never had sickle hocks affect a horse in the slightest, so it's not nearly the fault that posty rear legs are.


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## rambo99

They don't allow stallions in 4h pretty sure that goes for everywhere,there is 4H. 

He's not stallion quality from the looks of him now. His hindend looks weak an hocks stuck out behind him. 

Most studs make better geldings.


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## whisper2myhorse

loosie said:


> OK, if he is favouring it, then there's a fair bet there is an issue there IME. Unless your vets are bodywork specialists (chiro, physio, etc), they may not have the knowledge to find/treat whatever issue. I'd be looking for a chiropractic vet personally.


The vets I use is a family. The grandfather is a large animal vet, his son is an equine specialist. He works mostly with show horses. The grandson does both large and small animals. The grandson's wife specializes in equine, chiro, and even dental. If there is any concerns they work together on a situation. I like going to them one stop take care of all your animal needs. They are very good. They also have several technicians that are good. I have appointment December 27, it's also for booster shots. Check about the process pulling some semen and freezing it, and getting him cut. This is a big day for my young fellow. 


I have to check with the rules for the small 4H shows around here about showing him in halter as a yearling. I don't think he has to be cut. There are several horses that I know that have placed in halter class that are still intact. There maybe some special rules I need to know about. My niece said she didn't know but the was going to talk to her leader.


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## whisper2myhorse

rambo99 said:


> They don't allow stallions in 4h pretty sure that goes for everywhere,there is 4H.
> 
> He's not stallion quality from the looks of him now. His hindend looks weak an hocks stuck out behind him.
> 
> Most studs make better geldings.


Och, it hurts hearing this, but your probably right. I just wish the ones that have checked him out for me had told me. I was really wanting to show him. I am starting to get concern. I may have to get him to the vet sooner. My trial agreement with his breeder is over and I have fallen for him so I guess he won't go anywhere. I will have to focus on making him the best trail horse. 

I guess, I will have to be more careful when I look for the next one.


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## whisper2myhorse

rambo99 said:


> They don't allow stallions in 4h pretty sure that goes for everywhere,there is 4H.
> 
> He's not stallion quality from the looks of him now. His hindend looks weak an hocks stuck out behind him.
> 
> Most studs make better geldings.


 You are right again, my niece just called me and said that the horses that I was talking about wasn't shown in the 4H Halter shows. She found out they were shown in a Halter Class put on by the local Saddle Club for gaited horses. She said that the yearlings have to qualify. I informed her what everyone was saying about his conformation. She became upset and said she wanted to show him anyway just for the experience. I told her that we had a lot of work ahead of us to get him prepared for the class and that he most likely wouldn't place. She said she didn't care she wanted to do it anyway. I am just as disappointed as she is because we were so sure he was a super nice colt.


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## rambo99

whisper2myhorse said:


> You are right again, my niece just called me and said that the horses that I was talking about wasn't shown in the 4H Halter shows. She found out they were shown in a Halter Class put on by the local Saddle Club for gaited horses. She said that the yearlings have to qualify. I informed her what everyone was saying about his conformation. She became upset and said she wanted to show him anyway just for the experience. I told her that we had a lot of work ahead of us to get him prepared for the class and that he most likely wouldn't place. She said she didn't care she wanted to do it anyway. I am just as disappointed as she is because we were so sure he was a super nice colt.


He's a nice colt I by no means think he's poor quality. But his hindend looks weak,but I've seen worse. Might be picture angle. 

He's got filling out to do he's still a baby. I like his looks otherwise. Give him a year or two and see how looks then.


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## SilverMaple

TWH horse youngsters often look like gangly baby giraffes to those of us accustomed to stock horses. As long as he's doing well and not acting like an idiot, there's no harm in letting him grow up a bit before gelding him. 



If you want to show him and let your niece work with him and make him a nice trail horse, gelding him at some point will likely leave you far more satisfied in the end. There are a lot of mediocre TWH studs out there; the world does not need another one, pretty color or no. But don't rush into the decision unless he's making a nuisance of himself. He's not a bad colt, not at all. He looks pretty typical for a TWH. Just enjoy him and have fun with him and re-evaluate in a few months.


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## LoriF

The colt that i'm looking at in the avatar is a beautiful colt. Here's my opinion and it is only that, an opinion. You bought a colt that you think is nice. You wanted a nice colt to possibly keep entire. If you can handle that and have the facilities to handle that then I see no reason to geld this colt until you know what he is going to turn into. This colt at the stage that he is now is not going to be his best. To be honest, no colt or filly is going to be at their best at his age, and it's only going to get worse. Usually as yearlings, you want to hide them in the back forty or at least behind the barn where no one can see them. That is how gangly, awkward, and ugly they get, almost all of them.

The biggest obstacle is their housing and letting them know how to be horses. That would entail letting them live with a small group of geldings (from a young age) to show him the ropes and keep his butt in line. The worst thing for a stallion is living alone and not being able to interact with other horses because they've been kept alone and don't know how to behave around other equines. Other than that, he is a horse so treat him like one. Fair and consistent rules.

Personally, I think that you should keep him entire because that is what you bought him for. If you start running into to many problems that you feel are too much for you to handle then reconsider. If you are doing fine with him, just wait and see what he turns into as he matures, and that is going to take quite a while. At he very least, four years old, and he still is probably going to be immature and not filled out at that age.

Sure, great stallions make great geldings. But you know what? Great geldings cannot reproduce and you had that in mind when you bought him. No horse is entirely perfect, none. From your avatar pic, he seems to be a very nice colt. He's going to go through some stages that will make you wonder. They keep changing until they are grown. He is a baby and he's going to keep changing for a while.

So that is my 2 cents worth.


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## loosie

OK, firstly, to Equinest, pardon, I just saw your last reply about this - didn't mean to seem like I was ignoring you, just missed it earlier! And for some reason I'm having dramas attaching pics here today too.



SilverMaple said:


> His hocks are going to trail out behind him when that rear cannon is vertical. When he stands with his hocks under the point of the buttock, the cannons will not be vertical, but angled forward. That, to me, is what sickle hocks are.


Yeah, that's my understanding, but looking at the horse, having drawn vertical lines, they ARE vertical & under the butt... so not sure what you are seeing differently.

Equinest, I see that you've drawn your line from butt to hock, perhaps a bit ahead of where I thought point of butt is, so that's why it's appeared angled. What am I missing there? And the description & pics I've found online only show the way I'd been taught, as if you drop a plumb bob vertically from butt down...


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## The Equinest

@loosie

Exactly what SilverMaple says. "Cannons Vertical" is deceptive. What's the better tell is the angulation of the hock, how it would look in a proper "vertical" position, and the stifle angle. You get an eye for the correct and incorrect angulation after a while of studying them. It is only a slight degree however, hence why I said I wouldn't be worried about it. This boy is actually less sickle-hocked than a great majority of TW I've seen.


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## The Equinest

@loosie

The line is angled, yeah. :| It's a bit difficult to draw with the finger.  

However, in the image the OP shared initially, which is the best angled picture for judging conformation(the profile picture actually has the horse slightly angled away and the neck bent, it appears, and the bum is slightly angled towards up making it appear as if his hocks are straight vertical), the hocks show the true over-angulation of a sickle-hocked horse. If you were to position his legs slightly back to be "under his hip" where they should be, they would be trailing out behind. Hence why a sickle-hocked horse is often mistaken as a camped out horse. For comparison, a sickle hocked horse, camped out horse, and a normal horse. 

Sickle-hocked: 









Camped out:









Desirable: 









Try comparing the angle of the stifle and hock joints on these guys.


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## whisper2myhorse

LoriF said:


> The colt that i'm looking at in the avatar is a beautiful colt. Here's my opinion and it is only that, an opinion. You bought a colt that you think is nice. You wanted a nice colt to possibly keep entire. If you can handle that and have the facilities to handle that then I see no reason to geld this colt until you know what he is going to turn into. This colt at the stage that he is now is not going to be his best. To be honest, no colt or filly is going to be at their best at his age, and it's only going to get worse. Usually as yearlings, you want to hide them in the back forty or at least behind the barn where no one can see them. That is how gangly, awkward, and ugly they get, almost all of them.
> 
> The biggest obstacle is their housing and letting them know how to be horses. That would entail letting them live with a small group of geldings (from a young age) to show him the ropes and keep his butt in line. The worst thing for a stallion is living alone and not being able to interact with other horses because they've been kept alone and don't know how to behave around other equines. Other than that, he is a horse so treat him like one. Fair and consistent rules.
> 
> Personally, I think that you should keep him entire because that is what you bought him for. If you start running into to many problems that you feel are too much for you to handle then reconsider. If you are doing fine with him, just wait and see what he turns into as he matures, and that is going to take quite a while. At he very least, four years old, and he still is probably going to be immature and not filled out at that age.
> 
> Sure, great stallions make great geldings. But you know what? Great geldings cannot reproduce and you had that in mind when you bought him. No horse is entirely perfect, none. From your avatar pic, he seems to be a very nice colt. He's going to go through some stages that will make you wonder. They keep changing until they are grown. He is a baby and he's going to keep changing for a while.
> 
> So that is my 2 cents worth.


Thank you LoriF, thank you for your 2 cents worth. I had forgotten how much research I had done to find him and I know a good horse when I see one. I know to many people who are in the horse industry and they were impressed with him. I even had him checked out my a friend who just happens to judge our local horse shows. She stated that I have an excellent conformation TWH he has all the things that she looks for in a yearling (he is not a yearling). He isn't sickle hocked ( it is probably the angle of the picture). His blood lines are excellent on both sides. She said there is no reason at this time to cut him. I wish I knew how to make a copy of his pedigree papers so that you could cling on the names and you can see his blood lines on both sides. They are awesome horses. He is well behaved just like all my other horses. I am going to have him tested to see if he is going to be homosogise for the roan gene like his sire is. She was very impressed with him. He does have to build up muscle but that shouldn't be a problem down that I have put him with the other geldings. She reminded how gangly my perfect horse looked when he was a three year old. Now, he is awesome. He has big strong bones and he is getting the proper nutrition. I will see the vet on December 27, and will talk some more about it to him. Right now, I am going back to my original plan. If anyone is interested to see what his sire's dad looks like, look up Frostys Reflection and you will see why I don't want to cut him. I really believe he will look like this. 

There are several World Grand Champions in his bloodline. The breeder has been doing this for over 40 years and his family even before that. I trust him and he has bred his own World Grand Champion. So for now, my Lakota will stay just the way he is. We will continue to prepare him for halter class and let him build muscle, confidence and to be trusting of humans.


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## QtrBel

No need to test. His mother was black. She had no roan gene to pass. He is heterozygous. He will have a 50/50 chance to pass it. Roan does not hide. The question would be if he is homozygous black. So test for dominant extension. If either parent carries a red gene then he could could too. I think just skimming through at least one likely does or does, probably both so good chance of Ee. Roan is attached to the extension gene so depending on which attached to he will only pass it when he passes that specific gene.


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## rambo99

I found a xpicture of the sire on all breed pedigree. Here he is. And the pedigree on sire.


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## trailhorserider

Hmm. I think Roger's Perfection is in the pedigree of one of my Missouri Fox Trotters. But I can't find her papers at this exact moment. :faceshot:
The only thing I find slightly poor looking on the colt is his neck. It's just more hollow than I would like. But you know, he's just a baby. He can still change quite a bit. I don't see any deal breakers on him, even his legs don't bother me honestly. I remember raising my colt, he had quite a bit of change as he grew. 

And gaited horses look a lot more "weedy" than the beefy stock horse types when they are young. I say let the little guy grow and don't worry so much until he's more mature.


We are so tough on horses conformation nowadays. But if you go back and look at photos of successful racehorses of the last 150 years you will see a lot of popular stallions that you would have gelded way too early if you only took conformation into account. Same goes for AQHA foundation sires......probably foundation sires of any breed honestly.


You know what they say about opinions........everyone's got one!


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## loosie

The Equinest said:


> . "Cannons Vertical" is deceptive. What's the better tell is the angulation of the hock, how it would look in a proper "vertical" position, and the stifle angle.


I thought the accepted description is the vertical cannons, so interested what's 'deceptive' about it & don't understand what you mean by hock angulation & which bit isn't vertical. BUT I appreciate that it's possibly irrelevant to op, so OP, let us know if you're interested, otherwise I will shut up! ;-)


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## QtrBel

His sire is DLK Blu Double. Frosy's Reflection is grandsire on sire's side so great grand to colt. She posted the pedigree further up. Not the easiest to read as it went from landscape horizontal to vertical presentation.


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## QtrBel

View attachment 1001053
Let's try this. I keep getting too large for file size. Had to do two steps but here is also younger picture that seems to show what is being discussed but may be what is standard for that breed if I am understanding the discussion.


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## whisper2myhorse

rambo99 said:


> I found a xpicture of the sire on all breed pedigree. Here he is. And the pedigree on sire.


Thank you this is his grandfather or great grandfather on the sire side. I personally like his conformation and his looks. I am hoping that Lakota will look like him.


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## whisper2myhorse

QtrBel said:


> No need to test. His mother was black. She had no roan gene to pass. He is heterozygous. He will have a 50/50 chance to pass it. Roan does not hide. The question would be if he is homozygous black. So test for dominant extension. If either parent carries a red gene then he could could too. I think just skimming through at least one likely does or does, probably both so good chance of Ee. Roan is attached to the extension gene so depending on which attached to he will only pass it when he passes that specific gene.


QtrBel, Thank you so much for taking the time to look his pedigree up and trying to explain it to me. Your information is helpful. I am not really understanding about the red gene though. Can you explain it in all women's terms that is just starting to learn about horses on her own. If I understand right, he has a 50/50 chance to through a roan, and if it has a red gene what doe that mean? I am trying to take everything everyone is telling me and learn from it. Sorry that I am so wishy washy (undecided) on what to do. I am an old women who is trying to do the best for her last young colt and what to make decisions that are thought out and appropriate for my colt's best interest as well as mine.


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## whisper2myhorse

loosie said:


> I thought the accepted description is the vertical cannons, so interested what's 'deceptive' about it & don't understand what you mean by hock angulation & which bit isn't vertical. BUT I appreciate that it's possibly irrelevant to op, so OP, let us know if you're interested, otherwise I will shut up! ;-)


Loosie, Yes I am interested and thank you for trying to explain it to me. I am trying very hard to understand everything. I am just learning and sometimes it gets confusing to me. Sorry if I seem ungrateful or argumentive. I am just trying to take it all in and process it. I am taking everything you are saying in.


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## The Equinest

@loosie

The problem I have with judging by "cannons vertical" is that on a sickle hocked horse, you _can_ get the cannons vertical. It's common practice in stallion ads when the horse is sickle hocked to stretch him out a bit and try to set the legs back in a more open/stretched stance to get the cannons vertical and hide the fault, which if you're judging by _just_ the cannons being vertical, you might look at a stretched out stallion like that and not consider him sickle hocked. Other ways to hide it are setting the horse up like the stallion shown above, so stretched out that you can't tell whether he's got good leg conformation or not. You might look at him in that image and think he's not sickle hocked, then see him in the pasture and he's extremely sickle hocked. Just because the cannons are vertical or past the vertical even like that stallion doesn't mean the horse isn't sickle hocked. 

So in my opinion, it's better to compare the angles on the hock and stifle, the hoof placement compared to the point of hip, etc. I've owned a few sickle hocked horses over the years, and you eventually just get sort of an eye for it just like when you're trying to judge a ewe neck. A non-sickle hocked horse can also stand too far under himself and appear sickle hocked just as a sickle hocked horse can appear not sickle hocked - so I think it's better to try and judge the hip and leg as a whole rather than just a part of it.


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## QtrBel

You know from their color both parents carry at least one dominant extension which makes them black. If either inherited as red gene from their parents then they could pass that. So he could be EEaa or Eeaa. The aa is recessive agouti which means he will not pass the gene to give bay as an option. If bred to a bay E_A_ or a red that carries at least one A and she passes it then a bay roan could happen. If he is EE then his roan is attached to one of the Es and he will always pass black so only black or bay (depending on mare) and chance of roan but will only have a 50% chance of passing roan. If he is Ee again he will have a 50% chance of passing it but because of how it is linked will depend on how it shows up. If it is connected to the black then only black based foals will show roan but they will always show it. If it is attached to the red then it will show if he passes red but unless the mare passes a black gene it will only show on red offspring (e from him and e from mare).


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## whisper2myhorse

QtrBel said:


> You know from their color both parents carry at least one dominant extension which makes them black. If either inherited as red gene from their parents then they could pass that. So he could be EEaa or Eeaa. The aa is recessive agouti which means he will not pass the gene to give bay as an option. If bred to a bay E_A_ or a red that carries at least one A and she passes it then a bay roan could happen. If he is EE then his roan is attached to one of the Es and he will always pass black so only black or bay (depending on mare) and chance of roan but will only have a 50% chance of passing roan. If he is Ee again he will have a 50% chance of passing it but because of how it is linked will depend on how it shows up. If it is connected to the black then only black based foals will show roan but they will always show it. If it is attached to the red then it will show if he passes red but unless the mare passes a black gene it will only show on red offspring (e from him and e from mare).



Let me see if I understand this, if he is bred to a black mare that he has a 50% chance of throw a blue roan, and if it has a red gene then it would be a sorrel or a chestnut.


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## whisper2myhorse

I have a classic champagne mare that has an awesome running walk. If I bred him to her what would I likely get?


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## whisper2myhorse

trailhorserider said:


> Hmm. I think Roger's Perfection is in the pedigree of one of my Missouri Fox Trotters. But I can't find her papers at this exact moment. :faceshot:
> The only thing I find slightly poor looking on the colt is his neck. It's just more hollow than I would like. But you know, he's just a baby. He can still change quite a bit. I don't see any deal breakers on him, even his legs don't bother me honestly. I remember raising my colt, he had quite a bit of change as he grew.
> 
> And gaited horses look a lot more "weedy" than the beefy stock horse types when they are young. I say let the little guy grow and don't worry so much until he's more mature.
> 
> 
> We are so tough on horses conformation nowadays. But if you go back and look at photos of successful racehorses of the last 150 years you will see a lot of popular stallions that you would have gelded way too early if you only took conformation into account. Same goes for AQHA foundation sires......probably foundation sires of any breed honestly.
> 
> 
> You know what they say about opinions........everyone's got one!


trailhorserider thank you for your input. I am not sure if I understand about the neck when you say it is hollow I am not sure what that means. Would you try to explain that to me? In simple terms please.


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## whisper2myhorse

The only thing I find slightly poor looking on the colt is his neck. It's just more hollow than I would like. 

trailhorerider, I noticed that he is very stiff in the base of his neck right up from his withers. I have been trying to massage it out and have him to flex to loosen it. When I see the vet on December 27 which also is an equine chiro., I was going to mention it to her. Could that explain for the hollow neck?


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## QtrBel

If he has Ee and the mare is Ee then either could pass e and you would have possible EE and Ee both black based or ee (red). If she is red then all she has to pass is red. So your only two options are Ee (black based) or ee (red).


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## QtrBel

Sorry forgot the Champagne. It would all depend on her base color and if she is homozygous (both of her parents would have to have been champagne and each passed a gene) or heterozygous - she only has one copy and has a 50% chance of passing that gene.


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## trailhorserider

whisper2myhorse said:


> The only thing I find slightly poor looking on the colt is his neck. It's just more hollow than I would like.
> 
> trailhorerider, I noticed that he is very stiff in the base of his neck right up from his withers. I have been trying to massage it out and have him to flex to loosen it. When I see the vet on December 27 which also is an equine chiro., I was going to mention it to her. Could that explain for the hollow neck?


I meant that it's just not very muscular or rounded over the crest. Perhaps very slightly ewe necked BUT 1) he only looks that way in the top two photos in this thread, the avatar photo doesn't look that way at all and 2) he's just a baby, so he is going to get more muscular as he grows. 

So please don't fret. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with his neck at all. I just thought that was his least "pretty" feature. And that will likely develop as he grows. :smile: I don't see anything wrong with his legs or anything at all. 

I don't know anything about chiro type issues so I really can't comment on that. I have never used a chiro for my horses.

Take anything anyone says with a grain of salt and don't worry, just enjoy your boy! If you ask 100 people, you will get 100 different opinions.


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## loosie

whisper2myhorse said:


> sometimes it gets confusing to me. Sorry if I seem ungrateful or argumentive.


Not at all whisper. You arent seeming that way at all. It is just that I'm not getting the idea others have given about sickle hocks & im interested to learn what they mean, but didn't want to 'hyjack' your thread if you weren't interested.


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## loosie

The Equinest said:


> @loosie
> 
> The problem I have with judging by "cannons vertical" is that on a sickle hocked horse, you _can_ get the cannons vertical.


Oh so i suppose that's what's happening in these pics. I thought the definition of sickle jocked was precisely that they could not be vertical & lined up with the point of buttock. A quick google didnt give me anything other than that.

That I guess is why I also have difficulty understanding how people differentiate between 'true conformational' sickle hocks and 'postural' reasons such as pelvic issue or hoof imbalance.


> So in my opinion, it's better to compare the angles on the hock and stifle, the hoof placement compared to the point of hip, etc


So... Are you able to indulge me further(& OP since she is interested) & explain, or point us to a good source of info, about what exactly you're looking for in angle of jocks, stifles, etc?

Hehe! Hocks not jocks!


----------



## AnitaAnne

LoriF said:


> The colt that i'm looking at in the avatar is a beautiful colt. Here's my opinion and it is only that, an opinion. You bought a colt that you think is nice. You wanted a nice colt to possibly keep entire. If you can handle that and have the facilities to handle that then I see no reason to geld this colt until you know what he is going to turn into. This colt at the stage that he is now is not going to be his best. To be honest, no colt or filly is going to be at their best at his age, and it's only going to get worse. Usually as yearlings, you want to hide them in the back forty or at least behind the barn where no one can see them. That is how gangly, awkward, and ugly they get, almost all of them.
> 
> The biggest obstacle is their housing and letting them know how to be horses. That would entail letting them live with a small group of geldings (from a young age) to show him the ropes and keep his butt in line. The worst thing for a stallion is living alone and not being able to interact with other horses because they've been kept alone and don't know how to behave around other equines. Other than that, he is a horse so treat him like one. Fair and consistent rules.
> 
> Personally, I think that you should keep him entire because that is what you bought him for. If you start running into to many problems that you feel are too much for you to handle then reconsider. If you are doing fine with him, just wait and see what he turns into as he matures, and that is going to take quite a while. At he very least, four years old, and he still is probably going to be immature and not filled out at that age.
> 
> Sure, great stallions make great geldings. But you know what? Great geldings cannot reproduce and you had that in mind when you bought him. No horse is entirely perfect, none. From your avatar pic, he seems to be a very nice colt. He's going to go through some stages that will make you wonder. They keep changing until they are grown. He is a baby and he's going to keep changing for a while.
> 
> So that is my 2 cents worth.


This is my opinion too. You have a nice colt, so don't be in a hurry to make decisions until he has grown up a bit. 

I'm in Alabama and ALL the TWH foals are gangly. Butts grow before the front end, so they often look awkward. 

Work with him and enjoy him.


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## whisper2myhorse

AnitaAnne said:


> This is my opinion too. You have a nice colt, so don't be in a hurry to make decisions until he has grown up a bit.
> 
> I'm in Alabama and ALL the TWH foals are gangly. Butts grow before the front end, so they often look awkward.
> 
> Work with him and enjoy him.


AnitaAnne, thank you comments like this is relieving my stress level until I see the vet again on Dec. 27. I live in a small town and all the horse people know each other. I also ride with a TWH saddle club. Soon as they heard I got a new colt they have been coming by to check him out. Most of them are like me we don't know anything about conformation but we know what we like as far as looks and temperament. So we are all wanting to find out what we should be looking for. The few that know a more about conformation seems to think he has the conformation of a racking horse and that is what I am wanting. Now, its up to me to get him the good start that he needs if I am wanting to show him. I do have a trainer lined up but won't get to meet with him until after the holidays.


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## whisper2myhorse

I know that maybe I am over obsessing on this colt, but keep in mind this will be my last colt that I will get to train. Also, my boys are grown and don't need me anymore. So all my time and energy is geared toward Lakota. All the attention he is getting his making him a very well behaved boy right now. He has settled down into a great routine and is very well behaved. He has caught on to the word "no" now. He started to nibble at me while I was brushing him, my hand went to block him and said "no" firmly. He stopped waited a second and then went to do it again. He got the same respond from me and decided that was something he wasn't suppose to do. I am watching very closely for any bad habits that he may try and correct them quickly and firmly. I want to make sure he behaves to I can keep him intact. As long as he is doing well my husband is okay with it.


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## The Equinest

@whisper2myhorse

This is a halfway decent source to read about sickle hocks on: https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1400&title=Evaluating Horse Conformation

I don't agree with their methods of evaluating uphill vs downhill at all, because butt-high does _not_ equal downhill and the way they're judging would make a butt-high horse a downhill horse. But for sickle-hocked, it has a decent explanation.


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## gottatrot

This is the same horse as in your Avatar, correct?
That is a better picture, to me. I wouldn't say his angles are enough off "plumb" to call him sickle hocked personally. Very cute horse.


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## whisper2myhorse

gottatrot said:


> This is the same horse as in your Avatar, correct?
> That is a better picture, to me. I wouldn't say his angles are enough off "plumb" to call him sickle hocked personally. Very cute horse.



Yes, it is the same horse in the Avatar. He is a Tennessee Walker. 

gottatrot Thank you for your comments.


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## loosie

Yeah gotta I drew some lines like that, which is why I was confused by other's judgement. But hopefully the above link will help understanding.


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## loosie

The Equinest said:


> @whisper2myhorse
> 
> This is a halfway decent source to read about sickle hocks on: https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1400&title=Evaluating Horse Conformation


Ok I am seriously over tired but there seems to be nothing really different there than I understood & says about drawing a straight line - as gotta did - from butt down back of hock & cannon.


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## whisper2myhorse

Loosie, I have looked at the article several times and when back and looked at his conformation balance and his head size. There is several things that I am wondering about. I had to start focusing on his good points such as his temperament , his willingness to please, and especially how quick he is to catch on to things. We see the vet on Friday and I have asked them to check out his conformation as well as other things. I asked a friend who is a Ferrier that specializes in corrective shoeing for gaited show horses to go ahead and start trimming his hoofs. She will be doing it next week. She stated that she things his conformation is fine for his age and that he is just at he awkward stage. She is a person that is straight forward and will let you know all your horses flaws. She is very impressed with him. I don't have the skill eye for conformation even though I have read several different articles and looked at pictures over and over again. My other horses have very nice conformation. I bought them when they where older and they were already displaying the gait that I wanted. My "perfect" horse wasn't one that I considered smooth when I got him. He was tall and extremely gangly and rough as he could be. He got better every year but I wasn't really satisfied with his looks until he was around seven. Then I thought he was perfect. This took a lot of riding, training and building muscles but mostly he matured. I have to remind myself that Lakota is just 6 months old and those pictures is right after he was just weaned and taken away from his mother and the environment he knew. He had to adjust to a lot of different things and he is doing well with that. He seems to have good sense right now and I only expect it to get better with the training that I am providing him. He has the right food, shelter and companions to make him a great horse. 

Loosie thank you for all your articles, input and willing to take time to help me. This has been very helpful. I am hoping the input from the Vet and the corrective Ferrier will also help him to get on the right track. I will be posting some more pictures later and I hope that they will be better.

Thanks again


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## LoriF

He will test you and I wouldn't worry about it. You have the experience with horses to not let him get away with stupid stuff. 

My almost four year old filly has tested me a bit over the years. The little brat tried to kick me at three days old, ha! Her mom let her get away with murder practically, but she straightened out a lot more when she also started living with my other mare who didn't put up with her shenanigans. She's turning into a really sweet mare but she still has to see where she fits in with everyone.

He will just fine.


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## Dehda01

He is sickle hocked. He has too much angle to his hock. You don’t pay attention to the angle of the cannon bone(because that is an angle that changes as a horse moves), but rather the relationship of how the stifle joint/hock/fetlock joint relate to each other. His stifle/hock joint angle is obtuse. The stifle lays more horizontally than a normal leg. 

He is sickled. And has a VERY SHORT(which is not ideal) croup which may confuse some people when trying to evaluate the whole picture. Many gaited horses are often are built this way. 

A post legged horse has a very uptight stifle- so the entire leg looks posty. 

A quality leg is in between.


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## whisper2myhorse

Dehda01 said:


> He is sickle hocked. He has too much angle to his hock. You don’t pay attention to the angle of the cannon bone(because that is an angle that changes as a horse moves), but rather the relationship of how the stifle joint/hock/fetlock joint relate to each other. His stifle/hock joint angle is obtuse. The stifle lays more horizontally than a normal leg.
> 
> He is sickled. And has a VERY SHORT(which is not ideal) croup which may confuse some people when trying to evaluate the whole picture. Many gaited horses are often are built this way.
> 
> A post legged horse has a very uptight stifle- so the entire leg looks posty.
> 
> A quality leg is in between.



Which picture are you looking at? What do you suggest be done to keep him from having trouble or becoming lame when he is order?


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## whisper2myhorse

I found this information and I thought it was helpful and wanted to share with others that may have the same problem with their horse.


https://theequinist.blogspot.com/2011/05/conformation-fault-sickle-hocks.html


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## rambo99

Here's a picture showing the different confirmation faults of hind legs. If colt is sickle hocked it's ever so slightly. 

Fact is he's young and has a lot of growing an filling out to do. He's well bred has champions in those lines. Let him grow up, keep him intact see what you have in two years.


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## whisper2myhorse

rambo99 said:


> Here's a picture showing the different confirmation faults of hind legs. If colt is sickle hocked it's ever so slightly.
> 
> Fact is he's young and has a lot of growing an filling out to do. He's well bred has champions in those lines. Let him grow up, keep him intact see what you have in two years.


Thank you, I am so hoping that it is not going to be an issue, I have looked at his back end over and over again. I have put a yard stick running from his hind end down to the ground. When he is on level ground it seems straight. When he is in the field which is unlevel then I seem to think that he is sickle hocked. I am really worried about it. We had Christmas at my house today and my brother-in-law said that he is find that he is normal for his age. This was the first time he has had a chance to see him and he was very impressed by him. He loved his looks and his temperament even though Lakota had to show off for him. He turned his butt toward him and kicked up in the air and racked around in the field showing off his gait. My brother-in-law said he had a very nice way of moving. He has worked with gaited horses a lot longer that I have and he has a better eye for conformation then I do. I was more concerned that he kicked up at him, that is the first time he has kicked at a person. His wife thought he was just playing and I said, he needs to know that is wrong.. She thought that I was awful for getting on to him. My brother-in-law explained that he needed to know whether he was playing are not that he doesn't kick up toward people. After I had corrected him, I turned my back on him and walked to the fence. He came up to me and was trying get me to rub on him. I went straight to his butt and started rubbing from there and then up. He stood there without kicking out at me. I was relieved that he didn't but was prepared to correct him if he swag that butt toward me.


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## rambo99

whisper2myhorse said:


> Thank you, I am so hoping that it is not going to be an issue, I have looked at his back end over and over again. I have put a yard stick running from his hind end down to the ground. When he is on level ground it seems straight. When he is in the field which is unlevel then I seem to think that he is sickle hocked. I am really worried about it. We had Christmas at my house today and my brother-in-law said that he is find that he is normal for his age. This was the first time he has had a chance to see him and he was very impressed by him. He loved his looks and his temperament even though Lakota had to show off for him. He turned his butt toward him and kicked up in the air and racked around in the field showing off his gait. My brother-in-law said he had a very nice way of moving. He has worked with gaited horses a lot longer that I have and he has a better eye for conformation then I do. I was more concerned that he kicked up at him, that is the first time he has kicked at a person. His wife thought he was just playing and I said, he needs to know that is wrong.. She thought that I was awful for getting on to him. My brother-in-law explained that he needed to know whether he was playing are not that he doesn't kick up toward people. After I had corrected him, I turned my back on him and walked to the fence. He came up to me and was trying get me to rub on him. I went straight to his butt and started rubbing from there and then up. He stood there without kicking out at me. I was relieved that he didn't but was prepared to correct him if he swag that butt toward me.


From gottatrots post and drawing the line from point of butt down. He doesn't look sickle hocked. 

Really I wouldn't fret over it there's no perfect horse. He's got nice gaits, nice disposition an good looking. They go through akward stages, he'll get past those part of growing up.

Sounds like you dealt with the kicking just fine. Just be very aware when you're in field with him. He's young and playful he needs to learn humans aren't a play toy. You're doing fine with him. 

Enjoy him. Have a merry Christmas. 🎄


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## whisper2myhorse

rambo99 said:


> From gottatrots post and drawing the line from point of butt down. He doesn't look sickle hocked.
> 
> Really I wouldn't fret over it there's no perfect horse. He's got nice gaits, nice disposition an good looking. They go through akward stages, he'll get past those part of growing up.
> 
> Sounds like you dealt with the kicking just fine. Just be very aware when you're in field with him. He's young and playful he needs to learn humans aren't a play toy. You're doing fine with him.
> 
> Enjoy him. Have a merry Christmas. 🎄



Rambo99, Thank you, I will continue to work with him and focus on teaching him respect. I will make sure from now on I have either my training stick or the long lead line with the piece of leather on the end to give him a quick response to inappropriate behavior. Just like a kid you brag on them and they make a ful out of you. I am just glad he didn't make contact. He wasn't close enough this time. My brother-in-law is experienced with horses and he knows to watch out, or I wouldn't have allowed him to go into the field with him. 

Thank you and Merry Christmas to you!!!


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## Dehda01

I evaluated the few pictures at the beginning of the thread. Decades of showing halter with multiple breeds, teaching and judging conformation help me see but it is quite obvious. If I have time later this week maybe I can get time to draw him up for you. But it is a crazy time of year and takes a while to get written up. 

It is just a minor conformation fault, it can add a minor amount of strain to the stifle, but all in all, it doesn’t load the legs in an unbalanced way like various other leg conformation traits. As I said before, many gaited breeders think that it adds “flair” and makes them reach under farther. Which isn’t exactly true, but it means the trait is bred on. He will be fine. 

There is no perfect horse. Love him and call it even.


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## whisper2myhorse

Dehda01 said:


> I evaluated the few pictures at the beginning of the thread. Decades of showing halter with multiple breeds, teaching and judging conformation help me see but it is quite obvious. If I have time later this week maybe I can get time to draw him up for you. But it is a crazy time of year and takes a while to get written up.
> 
> It is just a minor conformation fault, it can add a minor amount of strain to the stifle, but all in all, it doesn’t load the legs in an unbalanced way like various other leg conformation traits. As I said before, many gaited breeders think that it adds “flair” and makes them reach under farther. Which isn’t exactly true, but it means the trait is bred on. He will be fine.
> 
> There is no perfect horse. Love him and call it even.


Thank you Dehda01, it helps to know that you have experience and a trained eye to judge his conformation. Yes, when you get time please draw him up for me. I am trying to learn as much as I can about horses which I have such a passion for. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!!


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## loosie

Thanks Dehda01 for explaining further. I for one would love it if you could draw on a pic for us, to make it clearer? 

But Whisper, as Rambo has said, assuming Dehda & co are correct, it is only a slight 'fault', and there are no 'perfect' horses, conformation-wise - there's always something. Depends what you want of a horse whether even many 'major' ones really matter anyway. And as you said, focus on his temperament etc too - that's just as important IMO. And he is only 6mo so who knows what may change too. IOW, don't stress & enjoy your baby!


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## The Equinest

@whisper2myhorse

I linked that article because I thought you said you were confused by what I meant by "over-angulation" etc. It goes into a little depth on what sickle hocks are beyond just drawing a line down the buttock, so I thought it would help in the explanation if that's what you were confused on.

The photo in your avatar looks like the rear of the horse is closer to the camera or angled towards the camera to me, so it's not really a fair shot to judge his legs on in my opinion. You need one that's shot about shoulder-height(on a horse) with the horse set up in an open stance(not square or stretched) with the shot taken so both the shoulder and the hip are the same length away from the camera to judge conformation accurate. His neck is also turned in that photo, which throws off some things. That's why I think the original picture is a better one to judge off, and also in that line that gottatrot drew, the line isn't touching his buttock. He's standing camped out in it, so the line would be through the vertical groove in the cannon rather than the back of the cannon. Which if he's camped out - like I said before, you can hide a sickle hocked horse by camping him out. In my opinion, he's a tad bit sickle hocked, but not to a degree I would really ever worry about. Ask your vet what they think though! Sometimes a horse is different in person because you can see how they hold themselves regularly and make sure all four feet are weighted, etc.


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## The Equinest

Ah, and since the OP is interested, a bit on how I tend to judge sickle hocks:

1.) The hoof placement compared to point of hip. A camped out horse stands with the feet out behind him, with the hooves themselves touching the vertical line from buttock down. A well-balanced horse typically stands with the line touching the backs of the cannons, and a sickle hocked horse stands with the hooves closer to or even _under_ the point of hip in severe cases. 

2.) A sickle hocked horse often has a weak stifle. The hip angles on a sickle-hocked horse often look "coiled" almost such as in this case, where the angle between the femur and the pelvis is too small. This is often found when the horse is stretched out to hide the fault:










Whereas, when the horse is standing normally, the stifle is weak-looking and lacks muscle(my sickle-hocked pony is never able to build proper muscle on the hindquarters as easily as my correctly-built mare):










^^In this photo it's hard to tell, but the femur and pelvic bone angle is still too small in my opinion. Here's a correct horse for comparison, with a more open angle and a much more relaxed hip:










Meanwhile, here's an image showing how easy it is to hide sickle hocked when judging by a line from the buttock down:










3.) Pasterns. A sickle-hocked horse tends to have over-angled pasterns I've noted in the front legs. This obviously doesn't always hold true because some horses have shorter or less flexible pasterns, but on horses with longer/flexible pasterns it's a good tell in my opinion. A sickle-hocked horse finds it harder to shift weight onto the hindquarters and balance himself out a bit, meaning most of his weight is constantly on the forehand, and the pasterns hold more weight. Like I said, it's not a perfect tell, but it's something to check for it you might be indecisive about a horse's hindquarters. 

4.) Stance. Sickle hocked horses often stand with the forelegs farther under them than a correct horse, due to their conformation making it hard for them to balance their weight out on all four legs. They stands with the forelegs under the wither or even the base of the wither where it rises from the back in severe cases.


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## The Equinest

Oh dear, missing photo again. Let me grab it:


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