# Cantering up front and trotting behind?



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

The horse I've been working with is a 20 year old therapeutic riding horse. I'm going to post two videos of his 'tranter' - one from last winter and one from two weeks ago. 

Until about a year or so ago, I had never seen him do this. Although all he usually does for therapy and lessons is walking and a bit of trotting. The occasional volunteer or advanced student could ride him w/t/c and with a good warm up and cool down, he'd be perfectly sound. 

Before I started working with him, I noticed he would do this 'tranter' thing where he would canter with his front legs and trot with his back legs. I saw him do this out in the pasture, and it looked very much like he was avoiding pain. He now does it very frequently at the trot, especially when asked to increase speed or turn. He's okay at the walk and canter.

He has no problems with saddle fit or soreness (one of our instructors does horse massage). He did receive a suspensory ligament injury in his hind left leg. I'm unsure how long ago, how bad it was, or how it was treated, but he's been at the farm 6 years. 

I would leave well enough alone, but he gets fat on air and needs the exercise to keep him going.

Someone on another thread suggested hock arthritis. This could be, as the 'trantering' gets worse in the cold weather or when the weather changes quickly. The muscles above his hind left (in the crease area going up his thigh) were sore during last winter. However, in the spring the soreness went away completely. The trantering did not.

He's also not stiff like an arthritic horse. I do a thorough warm up and cool down anyway, but he doesn't start out stiff or ouchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39FSlYM2aec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHPN...ature=youtu.be

***I don't usually push him through the pain and as soon as I feel him get uncomfortable or tense (and I try not to let it get that far), I bring him down to a walk. These videos I pushed him for the purpose of figuring out why and where exactly he is in pain.*** 

Thank you for reading!


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

At 20, it is very likely that he's arthritic and that's effecting his movement. At his age, I would really recommend having his owners having the vet come out and evaluate what he is capable of doing. 

If he checks out, the instructors need to ride him and keep him legged up when he isn't giving lessons. He needs to be kept in good enough shape by able riders that he is comfortable packing around the disabled. 

How does move if you ride on the buckle, without contact? The video is pretty low quality, so it's impossible to see exactly whats going on. However, it looks like he's really resisting any contact on his mouth, throwing up his head, hollowing his back and then it's impossible for his to have decent movement. Even with the low quality you're tipping forward and locking your arms down pretty straight, that isn't a comfortable feel for any horse to move into. Sit up straighter, and really think about having a giving hand. Practice at the walk with light contact and just let your arms move with him. You'll feel your elbows opening and closing to follow that movement.


----------



## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Also does he do this without a rider? When loose in a pasture? On a lunge line? Or only with a rider?

The second link doesn't work for me.


----------



## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Tryst said:


> Also does he do this without a rider? When loose in a pasture? On a lunge line? Or only with a rider?
> 
> The second link doesn't work for me.


She DID state he also does this in the pasture.


----------



## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

One of the big boy belgians at our lesson barn is famous for his tranter.

It comes down to the rider in his case. If he knows he's got a real beginner on him he'll tranter non stop. If an experienced rider gets on him, he gets the message really quick and picks up the full canter without a second thought.

It seems to be laziness in his case. He's perfectly sound otherwise and actually has a great canter when you get him into it.


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

PrivatePilot said:


> One of the big boy belgians at our lesson barn is famous for his tranter.
> 
> It comes down to the rider in his case. If he knows he's got a real beginner on him he'll tranter non stop. If an experienced rider gets on him, he gets the message really quick and picks up the full canter without a second thought.
> 
> It seems to be laziness in his case. He's perfectly sound otherwise and actually has a great canter when you get him into it.


See, I am a beginner so I had the same thought. However, I've asked experienced riders to ride him and he will still do it. It really does seem like he's trying to avoid pain rather than avoid work. He actually prefers to fully canter and is much more comfortable.


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

BreakableRider said:


> At 20, it is very likely that he's arthritic and that's effecting his movement. At his age, I would really recommend having his owners having the vet come out and evaluate what he is capable of doing.
> 
> If he checks out, the instructors need to ride him and keep him legged up when he isn't giving lessons. He needs to be kept in good enough shape by able riders that he is comfortable packing around the disabled.
> 
> How does move if you ride on the buckle, without contact? The video is pretty low quality, so it's impossible to see exactly whats going on. However, it looks like he's really resisting any contact on his mouth, throwing up his head, hollowing his back and then it's impossible for his to have decent movement. Even with the low quality you're tipping forward and locking your arms down pretty straight, that isn't a comfortable feel for any horse to move into. Sit up straighter, and really think about having a giving hand. Practice at the walk with light contact and just let your arms move with him. You'll feel your elbows opening and closing to follow that movement.


Here is the second video, much clearer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHPNrWDZF6w

In the first video, I don't have any contact. I'm really letting him do/go wherever he wants. I know it's hard to see but the reins on that particular bridle are short. Thank you though for the critique - it's definitely something I have struggled with and will work on.


----------



## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

faiza425 said:


> See, I am a beginner so I had the same thought. However, I've asked experienced riders to ride him and he will still do it.


The Belgian I mentioned will still do it to experienced riders if they're still not direct enough with him. 

With the guy in question for me, you have to get on, get him out, queue the canter, leg leg LEG LEG LEG LEG LEG LEG (!), whack him in the butt with the crop if he still hasn't got the message, and then he canters with the best of them. 

Fail on _any of the above_ and he'll tranter quite happily. As with most schoolies, they figure out extremely quickly what the skill level of the rider they have on them is simply by the way the rider is riding. Schoolies aren't given enough credit sometimes, they're often amongst the wisest of the wise


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Erm... most horses that do this do this as a canter. It is a training/motivation issue usually (though could be pain too)

Doing this at a trot screams pain to me. I think a lot of the posters missed that, I almost did. Is he always on the "correct" lead? I don't feel like it would be an issue in the back if he does it in front.

The horse should see a vet.

_ETA: Watched the videos- agree it's most definitely pain related. I would make an asap appointment for the vet and in the meantime take him out of work completely. He is very lame even if not doing the typical limping. Does he always get ridden with wraps? Can't even tell what kind of wraps they are..why?_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Have the owners had him checked out by a vet chiro? Massage is great, but it there are problems to correct, it's not necessarily the most effective diagnostic or treatment.


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> _ETA: Watched the videos- agree it's most definitely pain related. I would make an asap appointment for the vet and in the meantime take him out of work completely. He is very lame even if not doing the typical limping. Does he always get ridden with wraps? Can't even tell what kind of wraps they are..why?_


The thing is, he's perfectly sound at the walk and can do a full canter. I don't feel like I'm explaining this part well: He _can _do a regular trot, but often gets uncomfortable and starts to tranter. 

Personally I would like to have the vet check him out, but he's not my horse and I would have to convince the BO. She knows this is an ongoing issue, but since he's not lame at any other time, it's a low priority for her. I've also wanted to have a chiropractor out but I don't have the $$

In therapy and lessons, almost never wears wraps. I always ride him with wraps, SMBs up front and polos in the back. He's 20 and overweight, and I figured a little support when he's being worked couldn't hurt.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

faiza425 said:


> The thing is, he's perfectly sound at the walk and can do a full canter. I don't feel like I'm explaining this part well: He _can _do a regular trot, but often gets uncomfortable and starts to tranter.
> 
> Personally I would like to have the vet check him out, but he's not my horse and I would have to convince the BO. She knows this is an ongoing issue, but since he's not lame at any other time, it's a low priority for her. I've also wanted to have a chiropractor out but I don't have the $$
> 
> In therapy and lessons, almost never wears wraps. I always ride him with wraps, SMBs up front and polos in the back. He's 20 and overweight, and I figured a little support when he's being worked couldn't hurt.


I can see the "regular trot" don't worry I did get that part.

Doesn't change that I see a lame horse.

I would be interested to see more videos, w/t/c. Both directions. Again, is he good with his leads?

I know it's hard when the horse isn't yours.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When the head is popping up it's telling me the horse is sore.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When it comes to pain horses are stoic, a survival tactic. It's pain threshold may be tolerant of it's own weight but add weight and his tolerance levels drop. He is objecting when you ask for more than the walk.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The fact that he is clearly objecting and trying not to put weight down and pretty much throwing himself up off that foot says a lot more than a "head bob" to me, I think it's sad that the BO doesn't see it as priority since he does not have a traditional limp.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

If he is lame, which leg do you think he is lame on?

I am not convinced he is lame. maybe a bit sore, as older horses can be, and stiff. 
but, I get the feeling that he is just either unsure of the real committment of the rider (i.e. he feels the rider cue "trot", but the rider is not balanced and fluid in a way that encourages forward movement) , so he has mixed messages.

or

he is smart enough to not want to work a lot. throwing the head up is part and parcel with a horse that canters THAT slow , with zero impulsion. look at most Western Pleasure horses and the so-called lope. it's a lot like that.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Tinyliny, did you watch the videos?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I did. and I am not sure this is lameness. Not sure, that's all. it's just a way of going that I've seen some horses do. I've experienced this problem when I was a beginner riding a horse to whom I thought I was giving clear "canter" cues, but it was not reading that in my body, and it knew I was not able to carry through with a canter.

HOwever, it could BE lameness, but , like I asked, which leg is it that you see as problematic?


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK, couldn't tell by your post.

As I said to the OP I would like to see more videos.

It sounds like the horse is like this with all level riders and the OP stated he also does it in the pasture.

To me it does not look like he is trying to canter, it looks to be purely a trot gait however the footfall is different in front to avoid pain somewhere. Apparently he only does this at a trot and the walk and canter are fine. If he has a clear cut canter I would NOT associate this with a canter training issue, and most importantly he is not being asked to canter he is being asked to trot.

As far as which leg, I'm not completely sure. In the first video he looks more "lame". He also tosses up when picking up the trot. The head toss seems consistent on the RF though it could be part of that "lead" The "lead" seems consistent too. If it were the RF he would then have a moment off the ground before hitting the LF, but if it were the LF he does quickly swap feet/balance to the right. It could also be his LH. Note half way through the clearer video when he is moving away while doing this the back legs also move in a more canter like pace. The left seems a little stiff and hitchy?

It is also quite likely the pain is somewhere harder to pinpoint like his back or something, but from the videos and the fact that he also does it in the pasture I feel pretty confident that there is pain SOMEWHERE. Alas, I am not a vet.

ETA- rewatching the videos yet again I do feel I see some hitchiness in back. Hard to say as most of the time he is moving oddly, but when he is trotting normally he doesn't look right. Not sure why he would throw himself up so violently in front, maybe it's part of his physically trying to canter to relieve pain but mentally trotting so not having that impulsion, or again, could be his back or something.

OP how is he at different trot speeds? He seems to do this VERY consistently.

Has he had a recent Lyme test?

ETA- again sorry. Right around :05. AFTER he stopped the "canter", going around the circle. He's very sticky in back and doesn't want to reach under himself. So watch the front to determine when he's doing his thing then rewatch the hind from right before to during that turn. Pretty noticeable then imo.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sometimes he is cantering in back, trotting in front, and sometimes the vice versa.

he may do this when being asked to trot if he is asked to trot a bit faster and he does not know how to trot faster, so tries to break into a canter, feeling the cue as "speed up to canter" rather than, "put more energy into this trot".
some western trained horses do not really know how to get any kind of trot that is more exteneded. when the rider puts leg on at the jog, the hrose jumps into canter, then , if the rider pulls back, they can end up being confused and sort of stumbling back and forth between gaits.
i rode a horse somewhat like that. he perferred to canter.

HOWEVER, at one point, after 5 years of riding him, he did come up lame. but this was a much more sudden onset. he stayed lame , even though he would trot and canter if he wanted to out in his paddock. months of pasture rest. we suspected some sort of soft tissue injury on his front right. his owner took him into retirement.

I'd like to see him just plain canter.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Sometimes he is cantering in back, trotting in front, and sometimes the vice versa.
> 
> he may do this when being asked to trot if he is asked to trot a bit faster and he does not know how to trot faster, so tries to break into a canter, feeling the cue as "speed up to canter" rather than, "put more energy into this trot".
> some western trained horses do not really know how to get any kind of trot that is more exteneded. when the rider puts leg on at the jog, the hrose jumps into canter, then , if the rider pulls back, they can end up being confused and sort of stumbling back and forth between gaits.
> ...


Me too.

I do understand what you are saying but the fact he does it out in the paddock too. I suppose he could just be that uncoordinated.

I was under the impression though that this started suddenly. Here "Until about a year or so ago, I had never seen him do this." Now he seems to do it consistently even on a nice loose rein, the "hop" into a trot was a little odd too.

I understand a horse that has had that trained (intentionally or no) or has a lot of very unbalanced riders but to do that for all riders and out in the paddock after not doing it the time the OP has known him.

Hmm.... :think:


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> like I asked, which leg is it that you see as problematic?


Why does it have to be a particular leg? I will shortly go watch the vid, but a 'tranter' IMO would be more likely due to lumbar/pelvic problems, not a leg lameness.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it doesn't. but, if lame, wondering where folks see the issue as originating from, perhaps.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

faiza425 said:


> The thing is, he's perfectly sound at the walk and can do a full canter.


He doesn't look all that comfortable at a walk to me either. He's definitely in pain IMO. The way he's trying to keep his back hollow too... Don't reckon looks like it's his legs as such. Being so overweight isn't helping him either.



> She knows this is an ongoing issue, but since he's not lame at any other time, it's a low priority for her.


That's sad. Understandable though, as many people just don't recognise lameness unless it's quite obviously in a particular 'corner' - the horse limps. Perhaps you could give her some articles on back pain or such, to help her learn? I would at least not be riding him.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Agree with loosie.

Tinyliny, I am pretty good at seeing something not so good at pinpointing it usually . I do feel confident there is a physical (pain) issue. The problem is when I'm looking for something I tend to find it, even if it's not there.

Sometimes you can't pinpoint and my guess it's his back or hips or something higher up due to the "all overness" that is presenting.

That's part of why I asked the OP about Lyme. It can enhance lameness and stiffness and make things look quirky.

There's definitely something going on in back I see but hard to say where it's coming from. I usually call the vet at that point haha.


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

I am going to the barn today to ride so I will get videos of him w/t/c for you guys. I will have a serious talk with the BO if you think something is really wrong. It's gotten to the point where I really can't take seeing him in pain anymore. 

Tiny - He has no Western background. I have seen the Western pleasure horses 'tranter' but they don't pop their heads up in an 'ouch, that hurts' way like he does. He was a hunter/jumper and then a trail horse before becoming a therapy horse. 

I have tried to push him into a faster trot before, and while he will move faster I don't believe he really moves 'out' because he is anticipating that pain. 

Yogiwick - thank you for your replies and trying to pinpoint his problem. He has not been checked for Lyme, but he isn't showing any other symptoms. He doesn't reach under himself, even at a collected gait with an experienced rider. Again, I think he is anticipating the pain of really 'moving out'. 

loosie - I also think it's sad that the BO doesn't see it as a big issue. And for the work he does, I suppose it's not a big issue as long as he's okay at the walk. I've asked a lot of knowledgeable people and gotten lots of 'it's probably just old age, there's nothing we can do.' 

Weighing the costs and benefits of working him, at this point I don't know what's better. I hate seeing him in pain, but you can tell his quality of life is so much better when he is at a good weight.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Get him on a diet.

If you need to point out to the BO that he's not comfortable at the walk even if not actually lame and that for LONG TERM USE he should be looked at now even if they only do a quick exam and not an actual work up.

Waiting on videos.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not a vet, but he looks like a painful horse to me. It's the way he travels hollow while throwing his head up. It's a version of a lame horse head-bob if you think about it. 

He must be a saint to be so uncomfortable but still let people ride him.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm not even watching his legs so much as watching his head and body posture. The way he bobs his head says "lame" to me. I think the tranter is just a symptom, not the problem.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm wondering Kissing Spine, much like lower back pain in humans, pinched nerve/s.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm wondering Kissing Spine, much like lower back pain in humans, pinched nerve/s.


I have heard that a very large percentage of horses have *some sort* of kissing spine. Obviously most are very minor and do not effect the horse at all or we wouldn't have any left to ride lol, but it's very common and is often slight but overlooked as it either does not cause pain or not enough for people to worry about it, it's usually just the severe ones people notice.

Unfortunately with his line of work I'm guessing he has many many heavy or moreso unbalanced riders. All additional stresses on his back. His own weight won't be helping anything even if it's not a leg issue (which I'm not sure it is)


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

I apologize for my absence. I didn't make it out to the barn on Tuesday to ride, but I found time today to upload a few older videos. I will be going tomorrow to ride, and I will ask my more advanced friend to ride him w/t/c for video purposes.

I know this one's kind of dark/unclear. This was our attempt at a collected walk. We haven't worked on it since July, and I don't think he can really do it anymore because of whatever his problem is. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ras3c1uKcfk

I don't know why the quality of this video is so bad and it's so small. Sorry about all of the other riders. This is his regular trot - he gets slightly uncomfortable at times but works out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdaC6dqW53o

Cantering (in his bad direction) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBDgRn6997Y


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Why do you want to keep riding him when he's hurting?? You've already shown enough 'for video purposes'.


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

loosie said:


> Why do you want to keep riding him when he's hurting?? You've already shown enough 'for video purposes'.


First, these are older videos from before I even started this thread. I have not ridden him since.

Second, people have asked for more videos to see if they can get a better idea of his problem. In hopes that I wouldn't have to ride him again, I posted these. 

Once the BO comes back from her vacation, I plan on talking to her and even offering to foot the vet bills. I don't want to see him hurting as much as anyone.


----------



## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

An easy way to rule out pain is to bute the horse for a couple days and then ride and see if the behavior continues the same or lessens. If it lessens, you certainly have a pain issue to track down. Im thinking sore in the back end there personally. Stifles and hocks would be high on my list due to my experience. My SSH mare will "trollop" instead of gait when her bad stifle hurts her.


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

He doesn't look lame to me, he looks sore and to me, I would suspect his back. Whether is just overall body, back soreness, or a condition, who knows? The horse is chunky, not being ridden by someone who can feel such things as muscle soreness or laziness, etc. Maybe he just needs an adjustment and a massage and proper conditioning.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm still seeing something behind and the issue seems to be when turning/bending right (he's not bending at all really). Granted we don't have any good videos to the left aside from the canter one.

Yeah just have a serious talk with the BO when she gets back and see how it goes.

IMO sore and lame are pretty close to the same thing. No he's not "limping" though.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

How did things turn out with this?


----------



## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

Sorry I haven't been back to this thread in a while.

The barn owner came back from her vacation but wasn't around at the times I was there. I was going to text her to set up a time when we could meet, but she had a death in the family. She's back at work, but I don't think now is the time to dump my worries on her.

So I'm going to talk to her right-hand woman, who is also our head instructor and volunteer coordinator. I'm less sure of how she will respond, but since I'll offer to pay the vet bills, I don't see how she would say no.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's a shame nothing's happened but I understand it's not always so easy.

From their end they want a usable horse so you think they'd be down for it.

Let us know how it goes! I'm very interested in the outcome of this.


----------

