# "Color" breeds



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

First, it will help you a TON if you say "white pattern" or "pinto pattern" instead of "Paint pattern." I will get to that in a second because I already started typing what I have below this.

Buckskins and palominos are referred to as "color breeds," but are not their own actual breed. Those registries allow _any_ horse to be registered, provided it is the designated color. Same with pinto. A pinto is any breed that carries and expresses a white pattern that is not associated with the APHA. 

American Paint Horses and Appaloosas _are_ their own breed. They were bred to be colored stock horses and have registries with a specific body and color requirement. With Paints: Not all Paints are pintos and not all pintos are Paints. Appaloosas are more confusing because Lp exists in other breeds and is still called appaloosa unlike the Paint/pinto difference.



busysmurf said:


> You can have a horse that has NO paint genes anywhere, yet come out with what was originally called high white, and suddenly it's said that it has whatever paint gene. So you may or may not get paint if you breed for it. Same as with buckskin, it's a crap shoot.


It's not a crapshoot. You just have to know what you're looking for or now we have genetic testing. Buckskin certainly isn't a crapshoot. It's bay + cream. You could easily breed for that, it's just not guaranteed you will get it due to the combination of other genes going on in the parents. 

And white patterns aren't always loud and noticeable. Hence why random QHs were born with a bunch of white all over. Their parents' "normal" white markings (blaze, socks, etc) were actually a white pattern minimally expressed. This is the reason we very much stress testing for frame (LWO) before breeding. That one in particular will hide within "normal" markings and will cause a dead foal. The mare in my avatar only has that blaze and a white pastern and is N/O for frame, but is registered as a solid Paint because her white markings are considered "normal."

If you really want to get technical and muddy the waters even more: ALL white markings are caused by a white pattern. If I remember correctly, the current theory is that it is a mutation of sabino, but only one form has been isolated and identified.


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

There are several different genes that cause white markings(what you're calling paint gene). They express in different ways. In some breeds, "color" was bred out and considered a breed fault. The original Paint breed was really quarter horses with too much color. Paints don't have to have that distinctive traditional color pattern. You can have a solid horse that is a Paint by breed but not by color. Appaloosas are their own breed and are a stock type. The spotted pattern does appear in other breeds but they're not popular in the US. You can have Appaloosas with few or no spots.

The aforementioned stock breeds have a lot of mixing of thoroughbred, quarter horse, Appaloosa and paint.

With me so far?

The same genes that make a pinto a pinto also can give an Arab white socks or a stripe or whatever. However the combinations that cause the pinto look are not naturally occurring in Arabs. It's the same genes but its now they show up and the different subsets of said gene that appear.

Palomino is a color. Buckskin is a color and so is dun. They are not breeds. Those colors exist in many breeds and some (like Arabians) don't carry that color in purebred lines.

Paints are a breed. Pintos are horses of other breeds that have that coloring. To register your horse as a paint or pinto it has to meet certain requirements. An Arab with the proper coloring could be a registered pinto just because of how the genes express but its still a purebred Arab. Typically speaking, pinto Arabs are partbreds. Not always but usually.


I mention Arabs just because that's what I'm familiar with.

A registry doesn't mean something is a breed. It just is a place to sign up your horse and get papers for it. A palomino registered with Joe Schmoe palomino registry doesn't make that palomino no longer a quarter horse (or whatever it is). Registries do not equate to breeds, plain and simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conway (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm easy to please... I like brown horses, and red horses. (Brown, Sorrel/Chestnut). They are my favorite


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

DancingArabian said:


> There are several different genes that cause white markings(what you're calling paint gene). They express in different ways. In some breeds, "color" was bred out and considered a breed fault. The original Paint breed was really quarter horses with too much color. Paints don't have to have that distinctive traditional color pattern. You can have a solid horse that is a Paint by breed but not by color. Appaloosas are their own breed and are a stock type. The spotted pattern does appear in other breeds but they're not popular in the US. You can have Appaloosas with few or no spots.


Paints are _not_ just colored QHs. Yes, a lot of APHA horses were AQHA horses that were deemed unacceptable amounts of white, as the Quarter Horse was desired to be solid colors only. However, Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds do not carry tobiano, making Paints their own breed. 

Also, Appaloosa markings are quite common in the US. Minis have leopard genes running rampant and that is the main pattern of POAs. It also exists in QHs (google Reminic In Spots).


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Paints are _not_ just colored QHs. Yes, a lot of APHA horses were AQHA horses that were deemed unacceptable amounts of white, as the Quarter Horse was desired to be solid colors only. However, Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds do not carry tobiano, making Paints their own breed.
> 
> Also, Appaloosa markings are quite common in the US. Minis have leopard genes running rampant and that is the main pattern of POAs. It also exists in QHs (google Reminic In Spots).


I stand corrected on the paints  but am I wrong in he origin? Wasn't tobiano discovered later ?

Sure spotted patterns exist in those pony breeds but in horse breeds? Not common in the US. i know theres some out there - european breeds - but i cant recall the name just now. Minis and POAs aren't all that common either. I mean they're common enough that most horse people have seen a few but I've surely never see a spotted mini and I've never seen a POA outside of pictures. I've not even seen a spotted pony outside of pictures. Not that I'm the know all end all to horses but for several years I was moving every 6 months, and I've been to many horsey areas. If they were as common as you're thinking, I'd have come across one surely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Oh boy I'm really going to get it now, hehe. What about mustangs for example. Don't they carry the overo, tobiano, etc genes as well? So would they be considered APHA because they have the approved genes?

And also I'm still confused (shocking, I know) about the arab mare i mentioned. Unless I'm mistaken about the McCoy Arabs (wouldn't be surprised if I was) there were no color genes. So how is it possible she had a tobiano gene. I think it was tobi, I know it was one of the common genes. Granted this was back in the mid 90's when all this DNA stuff was new.

Or maybe I should just stick with "what I don't know won't hurt me" theory of colors and genetics
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

DancingArabian said:


> I stand corrected on the paints  but am I wrong in he origin? Wasn't tobiano discovered later ?


Yes and no. The origins of legitimate Paint horses were horses brought over to America by Cortez. The AQHA started in 1940, then the American Paint Quarter Horse Association was founded in 1961 for the crop outs. The American Paint Stock Horse Association was formed separately in 1962 and had differing rules regarding amounts of white required and this registry was for the horses that were descended from the horses from Cortez and carried tobiano. The two registries agreed to merged in 1965, forming the American Paint Horse Assocation. So some of the origins of Paints are, in fact, colored QHs, were as the tobianos were European and brought over and bred into the stock horses they are now.

And boo for not seeing spotted ponies and minis. You need to find some and poke their spots!


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

busysmurf said:


> Oh boy I'm really going to get it now, hehe. What about mustangs for example. Don't they carry the overo, tobiano, etc genes as well? So would they be considered APHA because they have the approved genes?
> 
> And also I'm still confused (shocking, I know) about the arab mare i mentioned. Unless I'm mistaken about the McCoy Arabs (wouldn't be surprised if I was) there were no color genes. So how is it possible she had a tobiano gene. I think it was tobi, I know it was one of the common genes. Granted this was back in the mid 90's when all this DNA stuff was new.
> 
> ...


The APHA does not have a monopoly on the white pattern genes. Many, many breeds carry the same handful of genes. They're all these same one. That was my point about not calling them _Paint_ patterns, but saying pinto or white patterns. 

Like I mentioned, if it's carrying and expressing a white pattern and not associated with the APHA, it is a pinto. The mustangs you're asking about would be pintos.

Also, Arabs carry sabino and possibly splash, but I can't remember if that was tested positive. I will go do some research.

ETA: Arabs have rabicano for sure. Derp moment. I know a rabicano Arabian. And it would appear that Arabians carry splash as well as sabino and rabicano. I'm not an Arabian person at all.


----------



## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Oh great, throw another one in there I've never heard of. You guys are mean, now that means I have more to look up, lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Rabicano causes roaning on the flank area and a coontail. Any horse that has a coontail has rabicano. 

Here is a very loud (Arabian, no less) rabicano:









Coontail









Less loud rabicano









Also common for rabicano to cause "striping" on the barrel that is mistaken for brindling.
Rabicano is common in a couple of QH lines, particularly those bred for cutting (Ie, the Smart Little Lena line).


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Haven't seen a buckskin or pinto Thoroughbred? -gasp-
How about a two-in-one from a breeder in my state?

La Toute Premiere - frame buckskin TB mare
(_supposedly_ the world's first [recorded, at least] dilute frame TB)


----------



## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Grabby hands, lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

DancingArabian said:


> Appaloosas are their own breed and are a stock type.


Foundation Appys are a breed, but are not stock horses. Appys were being bred long before there was any "stock" in North America or before anyone ever thought up a Quarter Horse, and were bred for stamina and hardiness.

The remainder of Appys are most definitely NOT a breed. A horse that is 5% Appy and 95% QH and a horse that is 5% Appy and 95% Arab and a horse that is 5% Appy and 95% TB cannot possibly all be members of the same breed, yet can be registered as Appys by ApHC as long as they have a lineage of ApHC registerd "Appys". Due to ApHC's registration policy, it is not a breed registry nor are Appys a breed, obviously, other than those that are of predominantly Appys breeding...


----------

