# Can horses be intentionally mean?



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yes, I do. I DO admit it seems to be almost entirely a domestication issue, but I do not agree it is solely a human issue. I have worked on tracks, and I've been involved with a LOT of horses. I have met some truly mean cusses in my life who had no rhyme nor reason for being as vicious as they were.

Someone had said they can't premeditate and actually be mean, and I disagree. These types of horses WILL savage another horse in the pasture, not just humans. I am talking about the horse that goes beyond any sort of "normal" herd behavior, and will badly injure another horse in a rage so to speak for no apparent herd related reason.

I have known racehorses owned by good people who have a foul temper. They look for reasons to bite, and you're always on edge. These people will own a dozen animals, all docile and sweet and one will just have a mean streak and looks to deliberately injure with no provocation. 

I have been kicked and bitten dozens of times out of fear. I understand fear entirely, I don't like the term "bad horse". But yes, I definitely believe that horses are capable of calculating meanness that defies any logic about how they *should* behave in a herd dynamic. These horses are never hit or mistreated, and yet will continue to wait for times to lash out with deliberate viciousness.

I would be curious to know if these horses exist in the wild, or if this is an unfortunate result of a bad tempered line in years of domestication. 

I agree completely that MOST "mean" horses are only so due to human mistreatment and/or interference. But I have definitely met some truly "mean" horses, from the day their were born, with no explicable reason for their behavior.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Out of interest is the photo in any way related to your question?

The question itself depends on the what we decide is meanness. That in itself is a whole psychological thesis.

However there are a couple of points to consider first. 

1) The horse is never wrong. What does this mean? Lots of people will immediately jump on this as being hippy and fussing over horses, but that is not my interpretation. It does not mean that they horse cannot do anything wrong, but simply that their intention at anyone time is pure. ie they act as they feel. They cannot 'pretend'. So if we assume this is correct then whatever a horse is doing is purely a reflection of its mental state at the time. Understanding and accepting that makes it much easier for us to interpret their reaction and rectify it where necessary.

2) Cause and Effect. Every action has an opposing reaction. In my experience 99.9% of horses 'mean-ness' is related to human interaction in some way. I have not as yet, met a horse than I am convinced was born as a foal - 'mean'.

3) Herd mentality. - well this is particular is fascinating. Domestic 'herds' are not actually herds at all. As such their interactions have been largely thrown out of synch. For example a natural herd will not contain geldings. It will contain stallions. Our herds are often small numbers, restricted in their ability to move by fences etc. Often restricted to one sex even (such as a gelding or mare only field), and often without stallions present. Often a day cycle will be in place which means the 'herd' is disrupted once a day to bring horse in for the night or to ride etc.

I find riding amongst a herd to be particularly enlightening, but thats a whole different subject. It does however show how quickly dynamics of a herd can change.

In my experience even in domestic herds there is no such thing as an Alpha Mare and the Lead Stallion who make all the decisions. Its much more complex than that. There will usually be small pods of 'friends'. There will often be an arbitrator, who passively disrupts fights or squabbles. This guy is often one of the strongest in the group and many horses will hang around him. Often he will also be the one that starts the lead off of the whole herd.

Yes I have seen horses that appear to want to fight for no reason, that want to kill another horse maybe. However, are they being mean? It depends on the scenario. In domestic herds their structure has had its natural dynamics absolutely destroyed beyond recognition. Much of this behaviour is I believe a result of this and the horse is exhibiting mental feelings such as the need for reinforcement of heirarchy, status, security etc. The reaction is his attempt to gain these things.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Finally coming back to the power of understanding that horses act as they feel - ie their physiology affects their mentality and vice versa - see the photo below. That is my horse. The three mare in the field next door NEVER take any notice of him, no matter how hard he tries. Yet the other day we did some free lunging in the field. He was in a playful mood and was heavily collected, in ramener and even offered the levade. The result? The picture below - those groupies came running!! I showed him how to use his body in a more powerful fashion, and so he feels more powerful, and to other horses obviously appears more powerful. Why? because these are the natural motions of a horse when it is prancing and displaying.









By fromhearttohands at 2011-06-28


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you Macabre & Doe for your replies, enjoyed reading them. No, Scotty is never mean, a bit jealous at times of other horses, but not mean. Scotty is the horse not the husband. Husband isn't mean to me or other women, children or animals, I won't comment on his meanness to others though, lol.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Thank you Macabre & Doe for your replies, enjoyed reading them. No, Scotty is never mean, a bit jealous at times of other horses, but not mean. Scotty is the horse not the husband. Husband isn't mean to me or other women, children or animals, I won't comment on his meanness to others though, lol.


LOL glad to hear it!!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Yes, I do. I DO admit it seems to be almost entirely a domestication issue, but I do not agree it is solely a human issue. I have worked on tracks, and I've been involved with a LOT of horses. I have met some truly mean cusses in my life who had no rhyme nor reason for being as vicious as they were.
> 
> Someone had said they can't premeditate and actually be mean, and I disagree. These types of horses WILL savage another horse in the pasture, not just humans. I am talking about the horse that goes beyond any sort of "normal" herd behavior, and will badly injure another horse in a rage so to speak for no apparent herd related reason.
> 
> ...


totally agree MM. And yes, many times it is due to some previous experience. I have had one who was truly mean, as I explained in a previous thread. To this day I have NO idea what caused his behavior. Wish I knew. He was one amazing athlete. Could it have been from a previous interaction? Most likely. But what caused this behavior to surface after being a perfect horse for about 6 months after purchasing him? Was it because it was spring and he was in a mixed herd? Did someone at the barn do something to him? (I was boarding) Highly doubt that. We had some very experienced people at this barn, including the BO, who were clueless as to the cause, and who had never seen anything like it. None of us felt capable of dealing with his aggression, which was exhibited in behavior which was "mean". I call him a "mean" horse, but it was aggression.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Some horses are, honest to god, just insane. Sometimes, they're born that way (if WE can have chemical imbalances in the brain, from birth, then so can horses!) and sometimes, we make them that way.

I don't believe that ANY horse is just vindictive. I do believe, however, that a horse with no reason to be nasty and just IS, has a big problem somewhere in the head, which is giving them, in THEIR head, something to attack about. Humans and dogs can have big mental problems like schizophrenia and other psychotic type disorders, so why not horses?

Edit; and horses CAN get brain tumours, which CAN also be a potential cause!


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I am not totally sure but I do feel there are mean horses. Though I think there are very few of them. I think 'mean' horses are just either fearful, showing dominance or there was a misunderstanding. 

One of my geldings for example. Some people think he is mean and nasty but he isn't really. He is just a very dominant horse. He isn't afraid to show that he feels he is boss and you are acting out of place. He is also one to do it in a rather aggressive manner. However when he knows you are boss he is really quite polite and really respects you. That doesn't mean he won't test you sometimes though hehe.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't believe in such a thing as a horse who is just flat out mean on its own for the hell of it. A lot of horses I've had presented to me as "snotty" or "nasty" or "mean" turned out to love me because I didn't treat them that way and gave them some credit and trust.
I do believe horses can do "mean" things though, at least from a human's perspective anyway. We see them be "mean" to other horses all the time, so why wouldn't they be the same to a human? They aren't doing it to spite anyone, though, purely just to feel powerful. Horses are power hungry.

Also to mention, I've met many clever horses who tried to intentionally rub me off of their backs or ram me into a fence if I asked them to do something they didn't want to do. But then again they might think I'm mean for making them do those things....oh well.

My mare was infamous for biting, kicking, bucking, bolting, ramming people over, shoving people around, pinning her ears and scoffing at everyone, etc. before I had her. Mostly kicking, though, that was the main thing. Just because, not really provoked most of the time. Everyone talked about how bad and nasty she was and were extremely cautious about her. I started working with her and treated her like any other horse and loved on her like crazy and bit back when she would come at me or threaten me. Within a week there was not a sign, and she hasn't offered to bite or kick me in months. She offers me her belly for a scratch and I sit underneath her to scratch it without a second thought. She comes right up to me and nuzzles me and rests her head on my shoulder and dozes. Nasty, awful thing. ;-)


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

rocky pony said:


> I don't believe in such a thing as a horse who is just flat out mean on its own for the hell of it.


You haven't met my friend's horse then. This was a mare that ended up being shot because she was 90% of the time a beautiful, loving, kind mare, and the other 10% she was just off her head violent. Put my friend in hospital MANY times. This horse was suffering, BADLY, and there was nothing that could be done to help her, but all the same, my friend did everything right with that mare, and she would just go off her face for no apparent reason at all. This is JME but sometimes horses ARE insane for no real good reason. My friend used to refer to her horse's flip-outs as 'episodes' - ever heard of a human or a dog having psychotic episodes? My friend and I both think that that's what the mare was having.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Mental problems, those I believe in. I do not personally consider the mentally ill to be "mean", however.

Mental problems do seem rarer in horses than in humans, though. Or maybe they are just better at coping with them. It is rare enough, though, that I've certainly never personally encountered it- things unprovoked by humans, that is.
I do personally own a horse who was formerly viciously abused for most of his long, long life. He reaches a point when you're riding where, well, I don't even want to find out exactly what he will do if you don't get off. He gets extremely uncomfortable and flattens his ears and starts crowhopping and bolts this way and that, entirely unprovoked. It's not from physical pain, only mental. He reaches a limit and it must be respected. We tried to help him through it for years and it only got worse, so now he is happily retired from riding. He hasn't been blamed once for being the way he is; he's a sweet old man. I think maybe he gets flashbacks.


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

I've met two horses that I would classify as "mean" in my life.

One was an OTTB mare that I owned. No matter how much care and understanding I gave her, she just didn't like people. I still know this mare although I sold her, and she is still the same way. She can be nice sometimes, but vicious the next and has never progressed very far in her training because of this. However, I think that this is an attribute of bad handling and mistreatment when she was younger and racing. She came to me very underweight and her demeanor just screamed abuse. I do not blame her for this, rather I blame the people who ruined her.

The second horse was much worse. She was a TB mare that I cared for at a job that I had. Supposedly, she was born and raised on the farm, and had never raced or been mishandled. She was 4 yrs old at the time. IF, and I say "if" because many other horses on the farm also had behavior issues, this was actually true, then this mare was just born mean. She would lunge at you with teeth bared, try and kick you at any moment, and was hardly even able to be led from the paddock to the stall. I had to make sure that I had everything (food, water, etc.) in her stall before bringing her in because she would attack you the moment that her stall door was opened. My hat saved my head from her teeth on one occasion. She was no better in the paddock, and just getting a lead rope on her was like trying to harness a wild animal. In the short time that I worked there, this mare broke a girl's back by kicking her when she tried to catch her after she escaped. Now, because I don't really know her background, I can't really say for sure if she was just a mean horse. I guess the most I can say is that I do believe that it is possible, that like humans, a horse could be born with a severe neurological condition that could result in inborn meanness. It seems only probable to me that both being living organisms, we can share this trait. 

I do not however, think that it is as common in horses. Most of the horses that I have known to be labeled "mean" have either been handled incorrectly or are suffering from a physical ailment.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Often times fearful horses become aggressive ie I'll get you before you get me regardless of whether it's with people or other horses. OTTBs have been pushed in their training thus developing no real social skills with people or other horses because they are isolated in a stall and only a few people handle them. One young lad bot an OTTB and spent many hours in this horse's stall, just standing by the door, waiting for the horse to investigate him. The trust the colt built with him was amazing and they went on to become successful on the local jumping circuit. Just spending time with a horse is a step we often ignore yet it's time well spent.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Ive been lucky and never actually had to deal with a mean or dangerous horse. Ive seen horses who became nasty in the stall because they didnt get enough turnout etc.
Personally Im glad Ive never came across anything like that, but I do think it is possible for the brains to be bred right out of the horses and to end up with occassional horses who have flawed minds. (crossing related horses too closely)
It happens in other breeds so why not horses?

Im certain in my mind that we had an old mare (22 years old) that became senile and forgetful. That in itself is not the same thing but she became out of character enough that after being a great partner for my son for about 10 years we had to retire her and not allow him to handle her anymore because she would seem to forget and we were afraid she might kick without thinking.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I have met a truly mean horse. I won't name names as he was a very prominent stallion in the QH world years ago. He was NASTY MEAN. To the point where he had his own barn and if folks wanted to see him for breeding consideration they did so through a viewing room. A few of his foals had the same god awful temperament. A few incidents I know of him having, he picked his very large male owner up by the tendons on top of his shoulder and threw him over a pipe gate, he removed fingers, as well as part of a breast of one unfortunate woman. I'm sure if any of those folks were asked, yes he had INTENT. To be bred he was handled with a log chain. Do I think he should have been bred, no probably not. In fact if he had been mine, he would have been a prime candidate to euth. Did I however own one of his daughters, yes and she was a wonderful kids horse. 

I don't think they are just mean to be mean in the sense that higher intellect beings, ie humans, can be. Humans interaction, nature's influence, genetics, mental illness, just a few of the things that can make one mean.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

As I say what is 'mean'? At least in horse terms.
That stallion sure sounded like red zone dangerous, but ultimately aggression is part of a stallions nature. When it comes down to it, a stallion only lives to secure a herd of mares and procreate. Aggression and dominance is part of that. The more of that he can display the more alpha he would be.
He isn't designed to be sentimental and feel bad about injuring others. He's just reacting to his environment.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I mostly agree with Doe, particularly on the first two points. I do not think any horse is out to be mean. They react regarding instincts. They do mirror the owners and there are a lot of stupid and angry people in the world. MHFoundation - I would imagine that the stallion mentioned had a motive for being "mean". For one, he was taken out of the environment he was meant to live in (herd). As I always say, "What was the horse doing out in the pasture before the humans walked up?..." Was he cooped up in a barn 24/7? Did he have a hormone imbalance or thyroid issue, pain, previous improper handling etc...? Cause and effect like Doe was saying. Something caused him to act that way, no matter how small it was. And keeping him a breeding stallion was stupid on the owners part. I mean, come on, if someone handled you with a log chain would you be kind enough not to remove a finger here and there? Sounds like a two way street in that story and the 1100 pound animal with a walnut sized brain, no logical reasoning capability and too much testosterone was NOT going to "be the bigger of the two". 

That said I have a wonderful gelding here who is very intuitive and quick to react. I am selective with who rides or handles him as he can quickly become "a problem". While many other people might disagree, I've left him be as he has every right to use his instincts regarding people and how they treat him. (I am sure he is only escalated by my lack of tolerance and anti-socialism that he sees, again with horses mirroring the owner) I had a friend who always carried a nasty attitude around horses, she loved to work with them but she needed to learn to control her anger and that always irritated me. If she came near him she was sure to be bit, kicked or ran out of his fence. We had a "know it all" cowboy farrier show up last month and asked if we needed a farrier. I declined but this gelding came over and lounged at him over the gate. To be honest, I didn't like the guy either. The gelding is also great with polite kids with "barn manners". However if there is a bratty, loud or misbehaving kid he will lounge at them. Before I knew he had this quality, as a yearling, he picked a five year old up by the hood of his jacket and tossed him over the fence (the kids fine, he thought it was fun) I didn't think it was fun though! Obviously, given the nature of the horse and the ever changing moods in some kids, the two are kept separate. But when he reacted I was about to swat the boy myself. His short fuse and gut sense for people seems linked to mine. Riding wise he is similar. If you're not paying attention to him, he notices and is off doing something else. If you're angry you might as well not even bother, hes up for a fight and you will not win. He is a great horse to teach the men who "man handle" horses, I will say that. He also loves to pick on a farrier with a short fuse but again, he sums you up before you've walked up to him. 

So all in all, yes. He is intentionally "mean". _He formed a decision based on his instincts to react and react how he saw fit, "mean"._ But no, he is never mean for "no reason" or " for the fun of it". I always see fault in the person he is reacting to. He always has every right to react and I have not discouraged him from this, if anything I'm sure I've promoted it some how as lets just say, if I'm not out there no one is stealing my horses with him around


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think they can. My qh bucked every 2 steps on trainer she didn't like (on walk, on trot, on canter, same tack so pain was NOT an issue) with extremely ****ed face. I don't think it's instinct, it's definitely something she did intentionally. I know plenty of other examples, when instinct just can't be a good explanation.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Doe said:


> As I say what is 'mean'? At least in horse terms.
> That stallion sure sounded like red zone dangerous, but ultimately aggression is part of a stallions nature. When it comes down to it, a stallion only lives to secure a herd of mares and procreate. Aggression and dominance is part of that. The more of that he can display the more alpha he would be.
> He isn't designed to be sentimental and feel bad about injuring others. He's just reacting to his environment.


I agree. I don't think that horses can be "mean" as we humans perceive it. It comes from somewhere. Though in his case I truly believe he had a few wires crossed in his brain. He had a very experienced owner (I met him in the early 80's and he'd been raising horses & working with stallions for decades.) He went through dozens of trainers & handlers all with various methods from very tough to awww, let's be friends, most not lasting a day. He had been pastured but could not be contained, he went through every fence and went after any horse, human, dog, etc that was around. 

A bit off track, but I own stallions myself and there has always been a stallion in our barn since 1958. We've never had one that was aggressive or dominant. I've met lots of studs that I'd call rank but fixable, there wasn't any fixing that one. If treated like any other horse & taught right from jump they can be very upstanding citizens. My guys can be pastured with the mares, worked together, lined up head to tail between 2 mares in heat and won't so much as squeal. I'm not so naive to think that herd leader drive isn't in there but the oldest stud is 29, lived here his entire life and has not ever acted like the proverbial stud. My boss mare displays more dominance and herd control than the boys would ever think about doing and she lets them know it :lol:


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

I know a thoroughbred mare, never on the track, who has a lovely owner. I knew this mare from the time she was a foal to present day. She was never subjected to abuse or neglect. However, you do have to watch your back with her. She can be sweet (when you have a peppermint) but that is about it. She hates being petted or loved on (petted doesn't sound right). She will try to kick and bite you if you walk pass her. She acts this way to other horses too, more so in her stall. There has not been any reason for this behavior based on her passed experiences. But yet she continues to act out. I never want to say she's mean (but some would i supposse). She's just not loving. If she was a person, she would be a biker chick dressed head to toe in leather smoking a cig. That's just her personality.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I agree. I don't think that horses can be "mean" as we humans perceive it. It comes from somewhere. Though in his case I truly believe he had a few wires crossed in his brain. He had a very experienced owner (I met him in the early 80's and he'd been raising horses & working with stallions for decades.) He went through dozens of trainers & handlers all with various methods from very tough to awww, let's be friends, most not lasting a day. He had been pastured but could not be contained, he went through every fence and went after any horse, human, dog, etc that was around.
> 
> A bit off track, but I own stallions myself and there has always been a stallion in our barn since 1958. We've never had one that was aggressive or dominant. I've met lots of studs that I'd call rank but fixable, there wasn't any fixing that one. If treated like any other horse & taught right from jump they can be very upstanding citizens. My guys can be pastured with the mares, worked together, lined up head to tail between 2 mares in heat and won't so much as squeal. I'm not so naive to think that herd leader drive isn't in there but the oldest stud is 29, lived here his entire life and has not ever acted like the proverbial stud. My boss mare displays more dominance and herd control than the boys would ever think about doing and she lets them know it :lol:


MH I suspect that's more about your handling of the stallions than anything else. Indeed stallions are just horses, they simply have more 'horse' about them than the typical gelding. As such a good horseman can work with them fine as you have demonstrated.

As anyone who has worked with mules will know, they are just like horses except more extreme in every respect.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Horses are incapable of moral thought or premeditated action. They base their actions on instinct, prior experience and other external factors like how much pain they are in, smell, sounds and overall perceived danger. Domestication has altered what we expose the horses to and what they perceive as normal, but not the basic brain structure. Some horses are born with difficult personalities. Some horses have diagnoseable medical issues causing aggression. None are inherently "bad" or "mean", they are simply reacting to the environment.
It irks me when people over humanize their horses and place inherently human thoughts and emotions on their horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I don't believe so. Horse's behaviour towards humans is a direct reflection of their prior experiences with humans.

We create their attitudes towards us. If a monster is created then there is probably a human to blame somewhere along the way.

"When you point one finger at the horse, three fingers point back to you."


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## Serendipitous (May 27, 2011)

I hear reports all the time of horses who are difficult personalities being exceptionally kind to children or people with disabilities. I have seen it myself. So if you (general you) think horses can be exceptionally kind (above and beyond the normal) in certain situations, shouldn't the converse be true? Or is it that horses have a greater propensity to be "kind" than they do to be malicious?

People are often "mean" out of instinct as well. My father is startled easily and without thinking will smack anyone who surprises him if they are in arm's reach. As a child, I thought this was mean. Do horses premeditate their actions? I don't think so. Can they be mean (overreact to certain stimuli because they can) in the moment? I think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

sarahver said:


> I don't believe so. Horse's behaviour towards humans is a direct reflection of their prior experiences with humans.
> 
> We create their attitudes towards us. If a monster is created then there is probably a human to blame somewhere along the way.
> 
> "When you point one finger at the horse, three fingers point back to you."


Yes I agree, this is what I have said. This is logical thinking, not moral decision making. The horse thinks, "two legged thing made me feel pain" so next time it sees the two legged thing, its on the defensive because it associates two legged thing with pain. Not "two legged thing did not donate money to the humane society and so I will kick it", not "two legged thing doesn't have a high school education and there fore is dumb and must be punished". Maybe "what is this two legged thing? It is behaving like a predator." And then the fight/flight response kicking in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Serendipitous said:


> I hear reports all the time of horses who are difficult personalities being exceptionally kind to children or people with disabilities. I have seen it myself. So if you (general you) think horses can be exceptionally kind (above and beyond the normal) in certain situations, shouldn't the converse be true? Or is it that horses have a greater propensity to be "kind" than they do to be malicious?
> 
> People are often "mean" out of instinct as well. My father is startled easily and without thinking will smack anyone who surprises him if they are in arm's reach. As a child, I thought this was mean. Do horses premeditate their actions? I don't think so. Can they be mean (overreact to certain stimuli because they can) in the moment? I think so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Reacting to stimuli is not being mean by any stretch of the imagination. If the horse spooks and lands on your foot he isn't "out to get you", maybe a bit disrespectful of your space because you were not dominant in that situation, but it wasn't mean spirited. To be mean requires premeditated thought and planning. It requires spite to think, I don't like x and therefore will for no reason intentionally cause them pain or discomfort.

And as far as the nice thing, I think that's overhumanizing the horse. They are herd animals and instinct tells them to protect and nurture the young in the herd. They are also a naturally curious animal and want to investigate things. When they are not harmed or made uncomfortable by a situation, or even rewarded for being in a certain situation they seek further reward or associate the situation with something positive and seek that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Horses are incapable of moral thought or premeditated action. They base their actions on instinct, prior experience and other external factors like how much pain they are in, smell, sounds and overall perceived danger. Domestication has altered what we expose the horses to and what they perceive as normal, but not the basic brain structure. Some horses are born with difficult personalities. Some horses have diagnoseable medical issues causing aggression. None are inherently "bad" or "mean", they are simply reacting to the environment.
> It irks me when people over humanize their horses and place inherently human thoughts and emotions on their horses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not disagree with this.

But I do think there are animals (horses, dogs, etc) that are born not right. Not stable mentally so their reactions to situations do not fit the norm.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I do not disagree with this.
> 
> But I do think there are animals (horses, dogs, etc) that are born not right. Not stable mentally so their reactions to situations do not fit the norm.


Which is usually a diagnosable issue, either a chemical imbalance it malformation of something. Or a difficult personality which was not handled correctly. There is always a reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have met two dogs in my life that no reason was obvious. One was a puppy who had serious aggression issues for no apparent reason. It was put down and necropsy did not reveal anything. 
Truly mentally unstable.

If humans can be born with a brain that tells them that murder and other such things are OK I do not see it as a leap that dogs, horses and other animals can also be born with that same screw loose.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I think a 'mean' pre-meditating horse is a rarity. 

I think there are plenty aggressive horses or overly-dominate horses that we think of as mean, but I think 99.9999% of the time, this comes from instinct.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think a 'mean' pre-meditating horse is a rarity.
> 
> I think there are plenty aggressive horses or overly-dominate horses that we think of as mean, but I think 99.9999% of the time, this comes from instinct.


Well said!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Watch my mare with some people and you will see MEAN... I have seen her bite and kick and chase people out of her pen then walk up to the next person nicely. 

There are horses that are more aggressive or dominate then others and it takes a certain kind of person to deal with those horses. 

I had a mare chase me OVER the top of a round pen when two seconds before she was being sweet as could be she decided she had enough attention and intentionally chased me out and then kicked the rails in front of my face. Same mare heavily sedated attacked me in the horse trailer... she was shipped out to a new owner (I didn't own her to start with ) a month later. 

I agree that MOST times it is a person problem not a horse problem but there are a few that are overly aggressive and can't be "fixed" IMO those horses need put down BEFORE they hurt somebody.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think a 'mean' pre-meditating horse is a rarity.
> 
> I think there are plenty aggressive horses or overly-dominate horses that we think of as mean, but I think 99.9999% of the time, this comes from instinct.


Well put. I think that most horses that are viewed as "mean" are simply acting on an aggressive or dominant nature that is already present. Sometimes they start their lives that way for whatever reason, and sometimes the mean-ness is allowed to become uncontrollable through lack of or improper training. I have either known or heard of several horses who were just downright nasty for one reason or another.

American Quest: Appaloosa stud that had been allowed to 'get away with murder' for so long that he would turn on you if you ever told him no about anything. He got a groom down in his stall once and very nearly killed him. This was just a couple of months before AQ's "mysterious" death at the age of 5.

Scotch Judge: QH stud that had no apparent reason for being so nasty. He was _mostly_ controllable for a person that had no qualms about dominating him by any means necessary but he always had that little switch in his brain that would cause him to flip out and go on the attack with no provocation or warning.

I think that people do tend to anthropomorphize their horses to the point of viewing their actions to be a result of some purely human emotion/reasoning. That doesn't change the fact that there are some horses out there that _are_ mean for one reason or another.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

I believe the problem with "mean" or "bad" horses starts with the way a horse is bred. There are some horse blood lines that are naturally hotter than others. I firmly believe that there has to be some natural consequence for repeated line breeding and/or mixed breeding with horses of unknown lineage. That can't be healthy for a horses internal systems (brain included). 

MH, if that stud was in TX I might know who your talking about! If not, than dang it there were 2 of them! The stud here actually killed one of the stable hands that fed him, brushed him, etc every day! They continued to breed him anyways. This is another issue creating "mean" horses. There are just certain horses with hotter personalities, no matter the breed. And sometimes that personality is passed on. 

My mother in law rides a daughter of the above mentioned stallion. Her dam was a gentle, laid back mare. The daughter is a great horse for my mother in law, who has owned her since she was 6 months old, but she can be just down right hateful to other people. I have been around her for 5 years, and she still pins her ears at me, tries run me over, bites at me if I saddle her. It's not that she doesn't know better (because she does) and I am a VERY capable horse handler/rider. I love working with "bad" horses (because I agree that 99.9% of "bad" horses are the product of mishandling) but this girl is just hateful! She acts like this for any person other than my mother in law, where for her she is an angel. My mother in law trusts her mare with her life. In her case, I believe its a product of her breeding.

I believe that some horses, like dogs, are "one person animals". They aren't happy, don't click, whatever it might be with some people, and hopefully one day will find "thier person". My current mare is a great example of this. The people that owned her invested thousands in her training. When got her back, they didn't like her personality (she's pushy and has the "That's not what I want to do!!" attitude) so they turned her out and no one touched her for 6 years. They called her the h*ll b**ch. I caught her, saddled her, and rode her with little effort after 6 years. She just picked me. She did need a brush up on her ground manners, but riding her is a dream. She does anything and everything I ask, even though sometimes I have to ask twice. However, I don't trust her with any other rider/handler. She just doesn't like working for any person other than the one she has bonded with (me) and an outward display of "meanness" is how she shows it.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

heartprints62 said:


> MH, if that stud was in TX I might know who your talking about! If not, than dang it there were 2 of them! The stud here actually killed one of the stable hands that fed him, brushed him, etc every day! They continued to breed him anyways. This is another issue creating "mean" horses. There are just certain horses with hotter personalities, no matter the breed. And sometimes that personality is passed on.


I don't know if he was ever in TX or not, he was a grandson of Jackie Bee.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I don't know if he was ever in TX or not, he was a grandson of Jackie Bee.


 
Ohh, not the same dude!


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

I believe that in most cases, horses are not mean, as we define it by nature. But that being said, I also think that horses can have a mean streak in them. I once had a gelding, proud cut, that the only word that truly described him was @$$hole! He would bit at you to see how you reacted, when you picked his feet up, he would lean on you heavily. He had a reputation for not only rearing up, but tossing himself over. I had seen him do it several times myself. If his rider done something that he didn't like, he would flip literally. The only problem with that was if picked up the reins and made just a little contact with his mouth, up and over. Did I get him over all of this? Yep, but when my uncle walked by, he would pin his ears and run backwards at him kicking. My uncle is the only person that he ever done this to. One time he managed to nearly pull over a 16' stock trailer trying to get at my uncle, the only thing that stopped him from succeeding was the two horses tied on the other side. When their lead ropes tightened, they both sat back and sat the trailer back on it's tires. Now, if anyone can explain his behavior as anything but mean, I would be glad to listen. But let me tell you another piece of the puzzle, or what has me puzzled. My uncle had been around this horse, at shows, since he had been broke, but had never really had anything to do with him other than knowing of him. Lucky had no reason to act the way he did toward my uncle. The day that he nearly pulled the trailer over, my uncle had just walked up and patted him on the neck while checking his water. And I know that he didn't spook the horse because he stood there for a moment while Lucky drank, but when he turned to leave, Lucky turned and went after him. How would you describe that?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

These are amazing perspectives and examples. In all my years of being around horses, and working at a dude ranch in my teens where a stock trailer full of auction sale horses where dropped off & we accessed & rode them, never have I met a truly mean horse. Back in the early 90's in this area when the horse market flourished here, there was lots of ranches here with breeding programs. I visited quite a few, and freelanced to start a few young ones here & there, never encountered a mean horse either, or even an overly aggressive one as described in the above posts. Of course I have encountered horses that bit, bucked, kicked, etc, but not wild charging maniacs! I am intrigued by that, how come? I am thinking maybe Canadian horses because of climate maybe(?), are not "mean, or as aggressive? Maybe it's the soil in which their food is grown? Very intriguing. Again, thanks so much for the responses, excellent reading.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

wares I don't think that has anything to do with it... it has to do with breeding and handling alot of time. BUT that being said there is no reason for my mare to hate my hubby after seven years she is not attacking him anymore but if looks could kill and he keeps a close eye on her at all times


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Peggysue, I tend to agree with you, I think it is genetic and not environmental, excluding the horses that have been mishandled, we know what caused that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I completely agree with the genetic component. There is a local stud that is Doc Olena bred and there is a good portion of his get are never able to be broke to saddle. I don't know what it is about him but probably 80% of his offspring are either very difficult or almost impossible to saddle-break. Which quirks are most pronounced depends on each individual and the dam's breeding. Some of them are spooky beyond control, others are horrible buckers, and some of them turn vicious. If you are one of the lucky successful ones to get one broke, then they make amazing horses, it's just that initial training period that most folks don't get through. 

We have one of his offspring and even though he is very broke, every time you try to catch him, it's like he's never seen a human before. I can say with 100% certainty that he's never been mishandled, there is just something in his mind about being caught that sends his flight instinct into overdrive. Once you get a halter on him, he's fine other than being a bit touchy, but catching him can be a real bear. That has never made sense to me, he's been used for years for ranch work, been roped off of, and everything but he still acts like that. No amount of "friendly" time helps because he truly just doesn't like being touched.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hands down, my vote is genetics and mishandling.

I think, and I state this exclusively just for clarification not arguement, that we all agree it is not a premeditated action when a horse is "mean". And furthermore, that "mean" is truely just the human emotion linked to the feeling of being dominated or threatened by any source. Just like when little boy pull a girls hair because she took his toy. He isn't being mean, he is reacting to his toy being taken away. But as the little girl runs to the teacher crying, she is saying "Johnny's being mean to me, he pulled my hair!" We (as in the group that labels the horses' action "mean") are all the little girl.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes we agree! Great minds thinks alike.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

I will try to get video of Sasssy with Mike... she watches and waits for him to turn his back or give her the chance... I can't help but laugh about it cause she is pure sweetness with me


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

i had a gelding one time who,if he could,ent get you with the back leg he would get you with the front,and failing that he would try to bite you,somedays he would chase you across the yard he,d never had a bad home or been hit or abused and yet a perfect drive/ride i think it was just his nature but he deffinitley knew what he was doing ,you could see him watching for his chance [the *****]


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Y'know, on another thread, someone made an excellent point that by definition, humans can't be mean without reason either. We equate human emotion as purely a choice when it's the furthest thing from.

In virtually ALL cases, a human being mean is purely out if instinct - feeling threatened by another girl, her peers, her parents, the stress of school, etc. It's also almost always compounded by a group (herd) instinct to dominate/display in front of others to verify status quo and dominance. In a few cases, it's due to mental illness.

The idea that humans are just mean is about as far fetched as horses being mean for no reason. The only difference in humans is we're able to understand what being mean is, even if we don't understand WHY we're being mean, and also able to feel guilt associated with it. Horses kick for dominance, we verbally hurt someone to make them smaller in front of us. It's the exact same thing. The human response TO meanness is what makes premeditated meanness an option for humans. If we weren't able to inflict pain with words, we would have no reason to premeditate our meanness.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

May I?

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-rid...-opinion-watch-these-90258/page7/#post1080576


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Humans can be mean. Sorry. Racism? Fascism? Hitler? Ever watch criminal minds? Gangs? Beating your own child for 'acting gay'?
Yes these things all occur for a "reason" but the reason is not instinctive, it is based on logic. My kid will grow up to be gay, won't be accepted by society and won't be happy. Therefore I should beat him.
This is mean, not acting out based on instinct. A mare would not bite her colt for inappropriate gender role behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I suppose humans have a reason for their meanness as anebel pointed out - doesn't justify it however.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Humans can be mean. Sorry. Racism? Fascism? Hitler? Ever watch criminal minds? Gangs? Beating your own child for 'acting gay'?
> Yes these things all occur for a "reason" but the reason is not instinctive, it is based on logic. My kid will grow up to be gay, won't be accepted by society and won't be happy. Therefore I should beat him.
> This is mean, not acting out based on instinct. A mare would not bite her colt for inappropriate gender role behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or, my genetic material created this "freak," and people will think poorly of my genes and sexual suitability for partnership, so I must beat the gay out so that I am not so ashamed, and so that people do not discriminate against ME.

Or, I am stronger and can dominate this weakling. It will prove my owner power and people will think higher of me--and grant me more advantages in life--if I do.

Or, I have a hormonal/chemical/neurological imbalance stemming from a birth defect or a crippling upbringing that makes me irrationally violent.

It all stems from either physiology or the primal "animal" emotions, just more deeply sorted through and planned out.

Related to the quoted section: Tendency to be prejudiced is a form of common sense, hard-wired into the human brain


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

That was a good link Bubba, but it was only one study, a rather large one though using different groups. Definately makes sense and worthy of more research.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Bubba summed up my point basically. Everything humans do is still rooted in a baser psychological instinct that we've essentially *******ized by mixing it with emotions. So while it may not make sense to "beat the gay out of a child", the instinct driving the action is far different then the reason why and can always be traced to a baser animal instinct.

No, it does not make it ok, but after years of domestication, I fully believe that horses are not these "pure instinctive creatures" anymore. On a daily basis, all species of animals do things that defy ANY sort of instinct or logic - like a horse or dog putting itself in immense danger to protect an owner, even sacrificing it's own life. Wild prey animals don't even do that for young, so I think it can definitely be argued that so much time in domestication has altered certain animals to view things differently.

Racism is a perfect example - ignore the action and understand the reason. Fear. No different then a horse kicking something that isn't technically a threat out of a fear based reaction.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Racism is a perfect example - ignore the action and understand the reason. Fear. No different then a horse kicking something that isn't technically a threat out of a fear based reaction.


While we are going totally off-topic, I have to disagree here that reason for racism is fear. As well as I can't think of the animal emotion equal to slavery.


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## Blazer1484 (Apr 1, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Some horses are, honest to god, just insane. Sometimes, they're born that way (if WE can have chemical imbalances in the brain, from birth, then so can horses!) and sometimes, we make them that way.
> 
> I don't believe that ANY horse is just vindictive. I do believe, however, that a horse with no reason to be nasty and just IS, has a big problem somewhere in the head, which is giving them, in THEIR head, something to attack about. Humans and dogs can have big mental problems like schizophrenia and other psychotic type disorders, so why not horses?
> 
> Edit; and horses CAN get brain tumours, which CAN also be a potential cause!


Lol, that is so true! My mare is named Diva and that she is. Really she's just spoiled and misunderstood. But she is known for her attitude and mainly stubborness. I have worked with her almost a year now and she has come a long way so far. She still pins her ears a lot and honestly I think that is part of who she is as a horse. She can be grumpy and bratty! You have to be very stern with her. At least she doesn't go to bite me anymore. I should say "nip", she never actually bit me. But she can be a witchy one. However, I love her and we get each other. So, I wouldn't say mean but definitely not your typical doofy, loving horse. I've never seen horses be mean to each other out in a herd. I've never really seen a herd before. But it sounds awful.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Dominance. Which would also relate to racism. People don't just "decide" to be racist, there's a deeper psychological reason for that kind of hatred. Why is it so easy to believe humans just ARE evil with no explanation, and yet so difficult to believe that animals can't calculate or think?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> While we are going totally off-topic, I have to disagree here that reason for racism is fear. As well as I can't think of the animal emotion equal to slavery.


People and animals alike attack those who aren't like them. It's based out of fear, or territorial feelings, competition, dominance, etc.

Some ants, actually, do have slaves. And I'm sure there are more examples in the animal kingdom. Slavemaker Ants
Herding Aphids: How 'Farmer' Ants Keep Control Of Their Food

I've seen a group of sparrows gang up and kill an injured member of the flock. Why? How did that benefit them? Were the birds being "mean"?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Roaming packs of domesticated dogs are a bit of an anomaly as well - they'll gang up and attack humans and other animals (cats, horses, etc.) for absolutely no purpose except to kill. There's no eating the carcass, there's no provocation, it's just a vicious mauling that subsides when the target is dead. We don't see this in the wild, and obviously human contact and domestication are the main factors here, but it still points to the fact that domestication and human contact can severely alter the natural instincts and reactions to things, and certainly make them moreso "human" in their actions as per there being no actual reason, but a deeply rooted psychological issue at play.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I know but my point is meanness requires rationalization and higher thought, both of which horses are not capable of. While it is BASED on instinct, rationalization is needed to come to the end action. This is what separates the human thought process from animals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

But is it _really_ all that different than the attacking sparrows, when it comes to "nonsensical" things like some of your examples?

"Mean" is just a word. What is the concise definition? How do you apply it? How do you draw the line between which species are capable of expressing it and which are not? Surely people are not alone in this regard, given some of the atrocities in the animal kingdom, including the higher primates?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Bubba, what you describe with the sparrows, is mean. From all I have read in this thread, I draw the conclusion, yes horses can be mean, however, I am not convinced 100% it is intentional, yet.


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't think a horse plots out it's day and includes HURTING you to be one of them.

"A horse has no future. It cannot greet the sun and say today will be better. It can only reflect upon days of past experiences. It is our job to create a positive past."


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

JustAwesome said:


> I don't think a horse plots out it's day and includes HURTING you to be one of them.


That is very comforting


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> People and animals alike attack those who aren't like them. It's based out of fear, or territorial feelings, competition, dominance, etc.
> 
> Some ants, actually, do have slaves. And I'm sure there are more examples in the animal kingdom. Slavemaker Ants
> Herding Aphids: How 'Farmer' Ants Keep Control Of Their Food
> ...


Not quite true. Slavery in animal kingdom indeed is instinct (with pretty deep reasons behind). I just can't think of human slavery to be instinct. :wink: I do agree about racism being dominance though (and not the fear). 

Frankly in wild life I don't see animals being mean. However those domesticated ones often are changed so much that they have different "thinking" (although it's not quite right word for that). They'll behave in sane situation very differently from wild animal.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

waresbear said:


> Bubba, what you describe with the sparrows, is mean. From all I have read in this thread, I draw the conclusion, yes horses can be mean, however, I am not convinced 100% it is intentional, yet.


We have to come up with definition of "mean" then before continuing. I always thought mean = intentional. Otherwise its just an instinct driving an animal.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> We have to come up with definition of "mean" then before continuing. I always thought mean = intentional. Otherwise its just an instinct driving an animal.


That has always been my understanding as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

But the birds were "intentionally" attacking their fellow, and the horse that kicked me (from the other thread) was certainly _trying _to kick me, and there are some even wild animals who will kill for fun alone.

*–adjective, *-er, -est. 
1. offensive, selfish, or unaccommodating; nasty; malicious: _a mean remark; He gets mean when he doesn't get his way. _

2. small-minded or ignoble: _mean motives. _

3. penurious, stingy, or miserly: _a person __who__ is mean about __money__. _

EXPAND 
4. inferior in grade, quality, or character: _no mean reward. _

5. low in status, rank, or dignity: _mean servitors. _

6. of little importance or consequence: _mean little details. _

7. unimposing or shabby: _a mean abode. _

8. small, humiliated, or ashamed: _You should feel mean for being so stingy. _

9. _Informal _. in poor physical condition. 

10. troublesome or vicious; bad-tempered: _a mean old __horse__. _

11. _Slang _. skillful or impressive: _He blows a mean trumpet. _

From dictionary.com. I'm really amused by definition #10.

If "mean" means selfish or nasty or vicious or bad-tempered, then animals are certainly guilty. Malicious is a more human motive, we think, yet others would argue that in our anthropocentrism we simply aren't giving animals enough credit. I've certainly seen things that, from the outside, appeared as though animals were plotting revenge. 

And then, if you accept that things like malice are simply higher constructs of the simple, base "animal emotions," and no more than that, then where does that leave you? Or if cruelty on a large scale (the Hitlers of the world) is nothing more than indoctrination and a skewed sense of perspective, or the result of hormonal and neurological abnormalities?


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

I think that most of us agree that the majority of horses are not mean. But, if one thinks that a horse is capable of love, it is therefore capable of hate, or malice. Emotions are emotions, ya can't have one without all the others. Hate is only an emotion, and the act of doing something truly mean is usually driven by hate. Do I believe that a horse can truly be mean to another horse? Yes, I've seen it.

If you look at how horses establish their pecking order, it is usually very peaceful with only body language, and the threat of kicking or biting. But when a horse simply walks up to another horse without giving any signs that it is dominant, and simply turns and goes to firing both back legs at another horse. I would consider that mean. That horse is simply wanting to cause harm to the other horse. Now, is this normal behavior for horses, absolutely not. But they are capable of being mean.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If we believe that horses can love then we have to believe that they can also hate, and have all the other attendant emotions in between those two extremes.

Not everything is instinctual, and although I don't think a horse is capable of premeditated malice I think they're quite capable of_ opportunistic_ malice.

Animals are not instinctually driven automatons. Yes, instincts are a great part of their mannerisms and day to day interplay, but to say they don't think independently does them a grave disservice.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

"A horse has no future. It cannot greet the sun and say today will be better. It can only reflect upon days of past experiences. It is our job to create a positive past." 
When I read the above statement, I thought how true and very unique way to put it as well (thnx justawesome). This morning I said that phrase to my husband who said not entirely true. He said what about when Rob (our son in law) picks up the horses for a week in their trailer? Our horses get so excited and happy and know they are going to spend some time at our daughter's place & visit with her horse (all the horses are related & play together over the fence). They know they are going there, they see the THAT trailer & THAT guy and know they are going someplace to have a pleasant experience. Do you think they are not planning on having fun? Some thoughts on that please? I did not have answer for that.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> If we believe that horses can love then we have to believe that they can also hate, and have all the other attendant emotions in between those two extremes.


Very true.

It has been proven that horses can recognize. If they can recognize, then they can anticipate. That leads to preferences and love or hate.


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## zurmdahl (Feb 25, 2009)

I have to agree that most of the time it's poor handling or abuse that causes horses to be mean. But, there are horses out there that are just mean. There's a horse at the barn I board at that is just a jerk, he'll rear for no reason at all and strike out at you. He's almost killed me before, I won't touch him anymore for that reason. He waits for the perfect opportunities to go after you too, he pretty much just does whatever he wants when he wants. I can't speak much about his history, he was only 4 or 5 when they got him but his old owner was a little sketchy so I'm not sure how true the things she told them were. I don't think they handle him much, though, so that could contribute to his attitude.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Horses cannot be mean in the human sense. A horse is a horse is a horse. It cannot be anything other than a horse. It's acts as it feels. That is why they say a horse is always right. Because it is true, it is authentic at that moment in time, whereas we as people rarely truly live in that moment and that moment only.

To be mean requires a moral code. Horses cannot (in the human concept of it) have a moral code.

They can however be selfish as is innate in most animals including humans. It's a basic survival characteristic.

We may not understand why the horse is lashing out at us. It doesn't matter. It is being a horse. Our role is simply to also live in that moment meet that feeling and teach it to re-direct and re-model it. That is the only way to heal horses that are damaged. Never feel sorry for them, that does not help them.

In terms of emotions we cannot know what they truly feel. Yes they must feel emotions they are just biochemical signals after all,but there is big step from primal bases such as fear to love. Love is a uniquely different emotion, and firstly we would have to define that. I have always thought of love as being willing to put the other persons needs first even if they directly oppose or are detrimental to your own. In that case we see little of that with animals, especially where food vs starvation is involved.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

waresbear said:


> "A horse has no future. It cannot greet the sun and say today will be better. It can only reflect upon days of past experiences. It is our job to create a positive past."
> When I read the above statement, I thought how true and very unique way to put it as well (thnx justawesome). This morning I said that phrase to my husband who said not entirely true. He said what about when Rob (our son in law) picks up the horses for a week in their trailer? Our horses get so excited and happy and know they are going to spend some time at our daughter's place & visit with her horse (all the horses are related & play together over the fence). They know they are going there, they see the THAT trailer & THAT guy and know they are going someplace to have a pleasant experience. Do you think they are not planning on having fun? Some thoughts on that please? I did not have answer for that.


Ya know, I don't think any of us in this lifetime will ever know the answer to that. Just like I don't think that any of us wil really ever KNOW if a horse is emotional.

It is obvious that a horse can react to a current situation based on a past experience, so maybe that is the answer. (The horse doesn't really love you, it just knows that the last time you were around it got fed, brushed, scratched in the "good spots", etc but not hurt) so the horse is antipicating the same result from this current encounter. 
But then again, saying that a horse can anticipate or expect something means that it has to be have forward thinking which is the basis of premeditation, and no one truely has the answer to that (at least non of us). 

If we are going to the scientific/evolution side of things, if an animal is domesticated it changes, from the inside out. If looked at in this light, we as humans, domesticated ourselves by our ability to learn and became the highest on the food chain (superiority over all other animals, but it started with the dominance instinct - eat and survive). If we hadn't, we would all still be apes. Human brains are much larger and more complex than any other animal, giving us the advantage of being domesticated the quickest therefore making us "superior". Within the process of domesticating dogs/horses (animals that ALSO have the ability to learn) why would they not change as well? 
Please, I hope no one is offended by this, I will not state my personal beliefs on evolution/creation ever, I am just trying to rationalize. 

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying learning from this thread, but I have kind of come around to the feeling of "does it really matter?" It seems we have all agreed (in several threads) that we all deal rationally when confronted by horses that aren't working well with us (mean or whatever it may be) by selling, putting down, finding a better home, etc.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

For those interested in human "subconscious" beliefs/preconceptions, and how they affect judgment and behavior, check out http://implicit.harvard.edu.
They have some huge study about automatic associations going on, and you can take place in randomly-assigned research surveys. Some are about race.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Awesome discussion guys! 

I think the idea is that we can't truly know horses, but to assume that animals have never changed during their evolution of domestication with humans is a bit far fetched. Humans have evolved drastically, we have to assume (I think) that animals are going to be affected by their interactions in some way.

So yeah, I think I'd agree in a way virtually all animal deviation from instinctual nature is human influenced but I don't agree with the way everyone thinks that human influence happens! We've already proven it's possible to genetically influence temperament in bucking horses for example - being able to breed animals with a "wicked" streak in them as decisively as we breed racehorses or show jumpers. 

For example, Zierra's dam was abused and when I got her, you could NOT touch her back legs. It took me forever to bring her around, and she never stopped being touchy. Enter Zierra who was born to people - we helped her nurse, she would ignore her fearful dam to run to us, and basically has adored people from day one. She's always been handled, and has beautiful ground manners. Except her back legs. I have always found it strangely amusing. She is 12 years old, and she, to this day, is flinchy and touchy with her back legs. She's never been mishandled, never had any reason to be, but she's been this way since birth. 

So why couldn't this somehow become a trait of her line? If we continue breeding her, and eventually end up with a "mean" horse who's born kicking the crap out of everyone in sight for no reason. No physical reason, no mental condition, but a long line of genetic conditioning to result in a final product.

Is it really so far fetched?


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

I believe..

All horses are born a clean 'slate' us humans create how they are.

Because if a horse is head shy.. it was not born this way?!?.. man created it, etc.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't agree, JA. 

Many, many horses are head shy and it has nothing to do with humans or them being abused.

A horse's eyes and ears are its early warning system, so not wanting someone to mess with them is instinctual. I think they overcome that instinctual code by learning to trust us, not the other way around. 

Horses are complex creatures, and to debase them by reducing them to instinct and reaction only is wrong.

_No_ animal is born a 'clean slate', all of them have some instincts that are preprogrammed into them by their genetics.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

This. I've owned my Arab since she was born, I know every little thing that's happened with her and every last human she's interacted with. She's been goofy about her back legs and her ears since birth. I can handle her ears, but she usually tries to crane her head away from me initially and we build up to me handling them. I handle them daily and every day is like the first time all over again. I had to clip them recently, and it was basically her craning her head almost upside down as I leaned on her neck to steady her. She'll LET me, that's where her trust of me comes in, but she'll let me know how much she hates it.

Meanwhile, Jynx I KNOW has had the potential to be mistreated and is petrified of whips and confined spaces. You can absolutely MAUL her ears and she doesn't move a muscle. I think she just enjoys human affection and attention so much, she'd let a kid pinch her nostrils and chew on her ears before she ever moved.

Regardless of instinct, ALL animals are born with a personality and preferences. If they can choose a favorite food, why can't they choose a favorite human? I really don't believe we're somehow "tricking" them into thinking we're their herd leaders by interacting with them 1 hour of every 24 at the most. Zierra will leave her herd to walk over to me and no one else. She knows ALL humans have food, so why only me? 

Herd dynamics are interesting to watch because even then, you see preferences and friendships outside of the herd setting. Justus is top dog in the pasture, and Jynx is theoretically at the bottom of the totem pole, but because Jynx and Justus are best friends, Jynx is given increased courage and status when she stands with Justus. And yes, she's even a bully - she will go after horses higher then her, knowing she has "protection", horses she runs from if Justus isn't in the pasture. You're telling me that's not calculated "meanness"? It's JUST like watching high school girls. She's a bully to others with her protector, and a big ol' fat nothing when she's alone!

LOL, I've totally taken this topic over, sorry guys. I just watch the herd a lot, and it amazes me daily the "emotions" I see horses put into things. Maybe you won't see it in the wild, but in domestication when horses are constantly entering and leaving the herd, it definitely affects the dynamics in a much more "human" fashion.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Animals are not instinctually driven automatons. Yes, instincts are a great part of their mannerisms and day to day interplay, but to say they don't think independently does them a grave disservice.


True. But they don't think "hey, I gonna go and kick that gelding's butt because I don't like him". Usually the reason for that is still there, meaning it's nature-driven. 

OK, folks... I looked up the dictionary... Let me say this: animal can be bad-tempered or even cruel (there are plenty bad-tempered horses out there). Which is what I usually mean by "mean" talking about the animal. However for human "mean" can also mean "dishonorable". And I don't think THIS is actually applicable to any animal.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

My friend's reiner is aggressive for no reason. My friend raised this mare from a weanling and reports that she was always a little beotch. It just got worse as the mare grew up. 

One day I was standing next to the mare while she was tied. She sprung her butt over several feet and just kicked me. :shock: She just aimed and kicked me. I was just standing there.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Brighteyes said:


> One day I was standing next to the mare while she was tied. She sprung her butt over several feet and just kicked me. :shock: She just aimed and kicked me. I was just standing there.


That was actually territorial defense I'd think (and by territory I mean her private space). Both of my horses are quite protective of their field. Meaning they may attack. I wouldn't call it mean though (and they get butts smacked for it).


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

I don't know if horses can be intentionally mean; instinctively, yes... but to have the choice to turn it on and off, I don't know.

I used to know a Standardbred gelding that was a bit of a nutcase. We set up pylons around his stall to keep people from walking too near - he would quite literally reach his head over his stall door, grab you by the shoulder and drag you into his stall if he had the chance. He would spend hours spinning around in his stall, despite turn out and hard race training, kicking and biting himself. We had the vet out numerous times to rule out any pain or discomfort and all tests were inconclusive. His crowning glory was the time he managed to make a 4-stall barn into a 1-stall barn within the span of 4 hours, between the last barn check at midnight and morning rounds at 4am. For a while, we had to hobble him in his stall just to keep him safe - he managed to kick his way through the stall door, lodge his ankle between the frame and latch and twist as he went down. Trying to free him took 4 men, a vet with tranquilizer and a blindfold.

Yet, he was very easy to handle outside his stall. He would walk like a school master on the lead line and never attempted to injure his handler. In his stall, pasture, on the track... completely different horse than he was in hand. I just couldn't understand it.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, that's what I am curious about Courtenay, can they rationalize to turn the "meanness" off? Any examples or thoughts on this? By the way, every post on here is interesting and enlightening, I am enjoying reading this so much, thanks again!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

What an interesting thread!

I just wanted to throw in my two cents (again), not to agree/disagree with anyone but more to add to the discussion.

I think that saying a horse is being ‘mean’ is an intrinsically humanized description of horse behavior. To those that brought up the (very valid) point of if horses can’t be mean they can’t love either, well, I also don’t believe horses love. Not the way we humans understand it anyway.

Horse _behavior_ may sometimes cause us to think they are ‘mean’ because we interpret things in an anthropocentric manner. Same goes for behavior that causes us to think that they ‘love’ us. Great stuff regarding oxytocin etc (I actually did look up some of those articles), and trust me I am a big fan of all things quantitative, but, who knows how such things are _interpreted_ by the horse? We can see the physical effect, we can measure it, but the way a horse interprets up-regulation of oxytocin may be vastly different from how a human being would. Same principle for aggressive behaviors stemming from glucocorticoids/testosterone. The horse itself is not necessarily mean for the sake of being mean. Most species are inherently selfish and behaviors stem from some need/desire to better one’s own situation in some way. Humans included. 

The question isn’t ‘can’ but rather ‘why’.

Just to clarify, I don’t believe horses are purely instinctual beasts, they are capable of higher thought processes than simply fight or flight but to assume that they process things in the same way us humans do is a leap of faith.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Just to clarify, I don’t believe horses are purely instinctual beasts, they are capable of higher thought processes than simply fight or flight but to assume that they process things in the same way us humans do is a leap of faith.


Agreed, Sarah.

Animals _do_ have emotions, but we have to be very careful in comparing them to human emotions. They don't think like us, so although they have the capacity for emotion, I don't believe it's 'love' or 'hate' as _we_ recognize those emotions.

It's difficult not to anthropomorphise our animals to a certain extent, but that's a dangerous road to go down. Their thought processes and the way they see and experience the world are different than us, and we need to remember that every time we interact with them.

Courtney, the horse you're describing sounds as if he had something neurologically wrong with him. I didn't automatically think 'mean' so much as 'damaged'.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Brighteyes said:


> My friend's reiner is aggressive for no reason. My friend raised this mare from a weanling and reports that she was always a little beotch. It just got worse as the mare grew up.
> 
> One day I was standing next to the mare while she was tied. She sprung her butt over several feet and just kicked me. :shock: She just aimed and kicked me. I was just standing there.


Admittedly horses can be born mentally 'dysfunctional' just the same as any other species. However it's still relatively uncommon.
It's a horse. It kicked you. They can do that. Doesn't make it mean. 
If someone is stood in your personal space and you feel uncomfortable, what do you do? Sometimes nothing, sometimes you might say something. What about the horse? He can't move you said he's tied. He probably tried to say something, but being a horse in human terms it was silent and you didn't hear it. So what has he left to do?
That's not mean. That's a horse. You were the cause. Frankly if I was a Reiner I'd be mean too, but you get my point? They are mean, but we aren't because they are lower in the food chain than us?? 
They are expected to understand us. Respect us. Yet we don't return the favour and they are supposed to be the ones with the small brain? Lol
Fascinatingly horses are and always have been an indicator of the level and state of a society. A reflection. That hasn't changed. As advanced as we supposedly are and have become, in reality we continue to move further away from our understanding of nature and that is reflected in our society today.
Perhaps this thread should not be are horses mean, but instead why are we?
(said with a cheeky grin) 
Enjoy your Friday evening all.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well put Doe.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

I think MM has a very valid point about breeding horses, and ill tempered horses passing that on. She referenced one of her mare no liking her back legs being messed with, which I bet the farrier loves. And a foal of that mare, was raised by MM and has the same issues with her back legs even though she has never been mishandled. My mare Lady, her **** has a serious phobia of needles. She would tear a stock to pieces every year come time to get her coggins pulled. The man bred her every year because she was a good momma, his words not mine. Now Lady does not have this phobia, but her daughter did. And in a big way. And it did not show up until she was 3 years old, and then it came out in a big way. When she was <6 months old, she got cut and had to be on anti-biotics for 10 days, no problems she took the shots like a pro. When she had her coggins pulled and vaccinations when she was 1 and 2, again no problem. When the vet came out the next year however it was a completely different story. She broke not 1, but 2 rope halters one of which was brand new. And the second one was after being tranqed. She blew through the tranquilizer and broke the second halter, and we still didn't get her coggins pulled or vaccinated. She tore up stalls, nearly pulled the post out of the ground, and was seriously starting to go after anyone around. Now, where did that come from other than breeding. I raised that foal, and she was never mistreated. The farrier could do her feet without a halter or lead rope, just call her over and do them. I ended up giving her to a old High School Rodeo friend, that in all honesty probably turned her into bucking stock, because she also got it into her head that a saddle was an evil thing. But that is a completely different story.

I honestly think that breeding plays a major role in a horse temperment, and if ill tempered horses continue to be bred, we will continue to get worse and worse tempered horses.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Very true painted. In every domesticated animal and especially in the showing world we have seen the mutated effects of constant inbreeding and weakened gene pools.
Genetics play a part in the 'barometer' of the horse no doubt.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Just as a side note, I didn't breed the mare and I quickly got her to the point of having her back legs handled easily. Same as my mare - they just don't _like _it which is a big fat too bad in my books. Zierra just always jerks her back leg up very quickly, and then will try to suck it into her tummy. It was just very very peculiar to me that a mare could be born with such a quirk and still have it after 12 years of having her legs handled daily.

Excellent point though PaintedFury, sometimes it's not just temperament alone we should be considering when breeding, but other "quirks" - Zierra has a completely docile temperament on the ground, a kid could handle her, but then start handling her back legs or ears and she can get squirrelly. Most people wouldn't think twice about breeding her temperament on, but will those quirks get compounded into actual issues down the line if we continue breeding the offspring? Very intriguing!


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I don't understand why a horse can go out of its way to kick me and it was my fault... Honestly. I want to understand what you're saying.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well, because it's just a horse and it's doing what comes naturally? Can horses be intentionally mean? Just went around in a circle there, didn't we?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha I think we've now begun a new argument, "can it be the horse's fault?"

Even if horses CAN be intentionally mean, I don't personally think anything is their fault. Maybe it's not necessarily YOUR fault, but placing blame is another VERY human emotion that animals simply don't subscribe to. It's doesn't have to be someone's fault, it CAN just "be". If I feed Jynx a treat and she accidentally gets skin, it's nobody's "fault" I got pinched, it just happened - I could pay better attention and she could be more careful, but placing blame is just a little silly when something like that happens.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Just a quick side note, MM I LOVE your picture in your profile. I smile and giggle to myself every time that I see it!


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Hey administrators, I think this thread needs to get stuck in the horse training section. This is something else that new people could benefit from, I think.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I guess "is it the horse's fault?" was a question very poorly worded. I'm having a hard time putting down in words what I'm trying to say... 

I'm wondering if your post was trying to say, "Horses have every right to be 'mean' to humans, because humans are mean to horses. Horses are doing what is natural to them, so however dangerous/disrespectful the behavior, it is okay, because it is the human's fault for making the horse uncomfortable and not reading their body language." 

IF this is what you said (I have a feeling I'm missing a little, so correct freely), what kind of responsibity should be placed on the horse to be "well trained" enough not to strike at people? Should horses be able to strike whenever they feel a need?

Doe, if you could just kindly re-explain your post in "idiot language".


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Brighteyes

You are not the only one. Some of the things that I am trying to raise and discuss in threads that I start are such subtle differences that they will be overlooked or misunderstood. I too struggle to put them into words. That is not saying I know better than anyone else, I am just constantly trying to improve and discussion helps me.

Firstly I am sorry you were kicked I would not wish that on you. I think the point was that the horse is a horse. You know that. You know its capable of kicking. The horse is tied and eating so it cannot move. You were in a place where you could get kicked and you did. Outside of the horse choosing not to kick (and of course I can only guess at the reason) you were the only one who could change the outcome. Therefore it is your responsiblity in that sense. I hope that doesn't sound harsh because it is not meant to be.

I was not saying horses are okay to kick, or that you were mean. However I advise everyone to look at their own responsiblity in these things. NOT for blame but to keep themselves safer in future.

I have only been kicked the once. It was 3 years ago. That was a 17.1 Irish Draft. Shoed - nice foot print perfectly bruised around my left pectoral. I was lucky. The horse was moving away and I was able to take the energy by flying backwards lol. People came out of their stables because they heard the crack. The point was that was my responsiblity. 

I was working with a young, supposedly dominant horse. I was using Parelli type techniques and trying to 'move her feet'. I got it wrong. She warned me but I ignored it. In fact she warned me twice. Third time I got it! I totally misread that horse. Dominance it such a crude way was not the way to go. Was she being mean? No. I had not established the right to boss her around, and she told me so. I didn't truly respect her as much as I thought I was, and so she did not respect me.

I picked myself up (literally) as my first concern once I realised I could breath was her running around with a loose line in the arena. I took the line off and that was the day I began working as I now do, which was somthing I had inside me but had lacked the confidence to follow. Im not saying you should never work a horse on a line. I regularly do. Its just that we had to break the association and start again. The difference was immediate. That horse bucked off much better riders than me and still does. She has kicked other better riders than me. She hasn't tried to kick me since nor has she ever tried to 'get me off'.

Another much simpler example. We have a horse on the yard that would bite from his stable. He lunges at people as they go past and has torn sleeves etc. Understandably people didnt like him. Some were careful to avoid him. Others hit him.

All I did was walk into his attack zone and meet his intention as it came in. What was that in actual physical terms? A simple but strong and sudden step towards him with a raised finger. Timing is everything. It was at the point of launch and he reversed immediately and stopped dead. So did I. Then I went into his stable (asking first) and stroked him.

After that all it took was for anyone passing to raise a finger and say 'hey' firmly but not angrily. Problem gone within the day. However the two people that hit him a few times? He still lunges for them to this day. _I don't think thats mean, but it does show they remember, and it also shows they can differentiate different people with different treatment, not just group everyone as human._


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Excellent post.

BrightEyes, I think you just need to let go of the human tendency to "blame". As I said, it's not your fault you got kicked, but it's not the horses fault either. In most cases, blame just isn't something that can be applied to horses, however you are correct and it all boils down to "can they be intentionally mean?" all over again, because if we surmise that a horse CAN plot to injure you, then yes, they can be "blamed" in a human sense of being at fault.

When I bought Jynx, she tried to kick me three times. I avoided getting kicked by being quick on my feet and aware of her intentions. She was a spoiled 2 year old who had been taught that if she kicked a human, the pressure or uncomfortable thing would stop. In this sense, I cannot blame her. She is only reacting to what she's been taught. Does that stop me from teaching her it's wrong? Of course not, there still must be a form of "punishment" to show her she's done the incorrect thing. But I don't blame her for trying to kick me, or call her a mean or bad horse. I know exactly WHY she's trying to kick me, she's been trained as surely as a jumper is trained to jump.

Horses are like children - they will do wrong, but most of the time they don't realize what they're doing is "wrong" and it's up to us to guide them.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Thank you _very_ much!  I believe I understand now. I can be a little dense at times, but after understanding what you mean, I can see it how you do.

Blame and fault are difficult terms to use with horses. I suppose it doesn't matter too much who is to blame, but what can be learned from whatever went wrong. 

(Also, your working without a line techique sounds interesting... I would like to hear more about that some day.)

Whether horses can intend to hurt someone with a degree of malice... I'm still undecided. Such a complicated issue. Most "meanness" can be blamed on humans "training" them to act that way, like Macabre's mare. Horses know no wrong until they are taught what wrong is.


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