# Need to fix a biting problem without negative reinforcement...



## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Hi! I just made this account so I thought I would make a post. Anyway, my horse doesn't have the best leading skills. He bites (he's playing but it's not a habit I want him to start) and here's the hard part: I don't use negative reinforcement. I do liberty and that is one of the many hard things to do with it. If I really have to use negative reinforcement I will, but if there's any way I can avoid it I would really appreciate someone finding a way that I can. Also, I know a lot of people might not agree with not using negative reinforcement so please don't be rude about it. I appreciate the help!


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

First, I respect your desire to keep things positive. I don't think that its going to seriously harm your liberty relationship with this horse to correct him. He is testing you. How old is this horse? He sounds young by the way you say he is playing. If this is true remember that a foal bites his mother or another herd member and he gets a solid whomp. This does not mean that he no longer follows the herd. 

If you are determined to avoid negative reinforcement by which I think you mean positive punishment (the addition of an adversive stimulus in response to an undesired behavior ie slapping him when he bites). As opposed to a behavior that is noxious but increases the behavior which would be negative reinforcement (such as a pile of fat in your fridge to remind you to stick to a diet). Than we need to know what situation he bites in and what sort of methodologies you are training from? You said you do liberty but what are the parameters that keep him and you working as a team as opposed to him running around like a fool while you have the illusion of control. Do you use clicker training, are you using rope halters, are you using some trainers philosophy?


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Certain behaviors - and biting is one of them - need to be responded to with negative reinforcement. This is the SAME reaction he would get from other horses in the herd. Biting is one of those things that needs to be dealt with firmly because it can grow into something dangerous very easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OK, given your refusal to consider -R or punishment, that's a bit tricky, but I'll give it a go... I do on principle, use a lot of +R, mild -R & very little punishment, but personally, that's one of the situations I would be using punishment. Being a dangerous behaviour in itself, aside from the attitude the horse is learning, I don't think there's room to mess around with this sort of thing. So this is a rhetorical question for me, as I suspect it will be for everyone else here - don't know of any other purist +R only people here.

So... your horse may be biting you in dominance play, to try to discipline you or tell you to 'get lost' or because he gets reinforced for it - 'mugging' for treats... whatever. I think understanding his motivation will help you work out how to prevent this behaviour from working for him. 

For eg. How do you stop him playing with you in this way? Go away & don't interact with him when he does it, if he wants to play(works well with too boisterous puppies!). Obviously this would be reinforcing if he actually wants you to bug off tho, so if that's his motivation, you need to find a way of (safely) ignorring it, so it doesn't 'work' for him. If he's demanding treats or such, first & foremost, ensure that behaviour NEVER EVER earns him one. Again, the behaviour will have to be (safely) ignorred - eg work from behind a fence - until it has died out. Or perhaps you can prevent it by keeping a grazing muzzle on him or some such.

In addition to making sure the undesirable behaviour never works for him, training/reinforcing conflicting behaviours is important. Eg. teach him he will earn a treat for tucking his nose in to his chest, staying at a 'respectful' distance from you, etc - he can't be biting you & doing that at the same time.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Yes he is young, he's 6. I take him for walks just to get him out of the pasture since I don't work/ride him everyday and that is when he bites. I am going to start clicker training (I got into it a while ago then kind of got bored of it) and I don't really use any training methods, I really just do my own thing. Also, it's not something I want to do but I think I should maybe just get the "punishment" over so this doesn't get far enough to be a bad habit. I haven't exactly gotten far into liberty so I guess it won't be the end of the world if I do it this one time. Thank you for the help! I really appreciate it.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Loosie, I didn't read your comment until after I posted that haha. But thank you! That really does help. I really appreciate you helping me with not using "-R" as you called it. It took me a minute to figure out what that meant! But like I said, I really appreciate it.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm going off topic a bit but still related to the things at hand. I am coming from a purely inquisitive point of view here. 

You do ride this horse correct? However you do not like pressure or release for anything? How do you cue your horse to turn? Do you not apply pressure with your rein, leg or seat?

Are there problems leading this horse as well, do you not apply pressure on the halter to direct him?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

DancingArabian said:


> Certain behaviors - and biting is one of them - need to be responded to with negative reinforcement. This is the SAME reaction he would get from other horses in the herd. Biting is one of those things that needs to be dealt with firmly because it can grow into something dangerous very easily.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The difference here is the OP is using the real definition of "negative reinforcement" you're using it to mean "positive punishment"
Quick reference:
Positive Reinforcement: Add something the horse wants to increase the frequency of behavior
Negative Reinforcement: Remove something the horse doesn't want to increase the frequency of behavior
Positive Punishment: Add something the horse doesn't want to decrease the frequency of behavior
Negative Punishment: Remove something the horse does want to decrease the frequency of behavior


All that being said - OP, I'm an avid +R trainer too, I've been using it for a bit more than a year now, but I've been actively studying it, attending clinics and classes as well as training 14 rescued horses and my own 3 horses. <-- just so you know where I'm coming from, not an expert but also not talking out of my bum!

To quickly answer your question. Your horse is probably biting at you because it may have worked once or twice - your horse knows the +R communication, when he is reinforced with food it means "you did the right thing" if you reinforce at the wrong time you'll be teaching unwanted behaviors. You need to watch yourself carefully and be very focused on what you're reinforcing.
Now some horses are just naturally pushy - my colt for instance, he was born kicking and screaming! I started my clicker work with him the same way I do with all my horses - I stand at his shoulder, bridge+reinforce when he stands quietly facing forward. This worked well. But when I started asking for a behavior that was more difficult or made him think too much - his first reaction was to just try grabbing the food or pushing me around. 
I fixed this in 10 minutes. I went to his stall, asked him to back up - this is a skill he knows, but doesn't like doing - after a few backs he decided he'd rather just push me around and be a bully. I left his stall. 
I used "Negative Punishment". My presence, and the food I bring with me are all Wonderful to him!! But if he's going to behave in an unsafe way he's going to loose me and the food I come with.
The next time I went to his stall he backed up and behaved exceptionally well. He's never had a relapse. He's very smart though and his rude behavior was new, he was experimenting to see if it would work, so it wasn't ingrained in him as something he should do. It was much easier for him to overcome this issue.
IMO, Negative Punishment (the removal of something desired to decrease the frequency of behavior) is exceptionally affective - While Positive Punishment (the addition of something unwanted to decrease frequency of behavior) is usually met with resistance or frustration.



Now I apologize for this being long. But here is a complete list of the options you have to extinguish an unwanted behavior.


Avoid the situation 
Punish the behavior with a painful or unwanted stimulus 
-only works if the punishment is worse and/or more common than whatever reinforced the behavior to start with. 
(Ex: horse paws at feeding time, he's been fed often when he's pawing – reinforcing the behavior. Being hit or scolded or scared for pawing will only stop the behavior in the moment. In order to eliminate the behavior the severity of the punishment needs to outweigh the frequency or strength of the reinforcement.)
Usually Positive punishment is first met with an escalation of the bad behavior (in attempt to get the reinforcement, thinking they got it wrong those times they were punished they try harder this time) or just out of frustration, anger, resentment or will develop sneaky behaviors (like performing the unwanted behavior until you're near enough to stop it, then stopping while you're close). These reactions usually result in the positive punishment being escalated, creating a vicious cycle.
It also creates avoidance, the horse anticipating punishment and avoiding it before it's offered (such as becoming headshy). 
Extinction - a behavior that isn't reinforced will gradually disappear. Good trainers learn not to focus on what they don't want, or they'll risk reinforcing or escalating it, learning rather to focus on reinforcing what they do want, letting what they don't be forgotten (Ex: if a horse is ignored when pawing it is no longer reinforcedand will slowly disappear) 
Change the motivation, setting them up for success in order to reinforce the right response (Ex: if they paw at feeding time, feeding them before they notice it's feeding time and start pawing will set them up not to do wrong)
Reinforce the absence of the behavior (Ex: reinforce when a horse isn't pawing)
Put the behavior on cue (Ex: teach the horse to paw, only reinforcing when it's cued – they soon learn it's not worth dueing unless cued)
Shape a conflicting behavior (Ex: Reinforcing 4 feet on the ground, so pawing isn't an option)
 

Can you fill us in on the skills you've taught your horse and what methods you use? A video of some of the skills he knows and your bridging and treat delivery can really help us figure this out. Often times horses who get really pushy with CT can become this way because the treat delivery is frustrating, is he dropping a lot of the food when you feed it? Do you only let him eat a little out of your hand and pull it away before he's finished? That would easily may him rush for the food. 
Anymore info would be great to help us narrow things down.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Oh! I guess I didn't really make it clear what I meant haha. I don't like pressure and release for things like tricks. Did I say I don't like pressure and real ease for anything? If I did, I didn't mean that. I do ride him yes, and I do apply pressure when riding and on the halter. However for things like backing up, I just step back with him. He does have problems leading, but I meant he doesn't respect space and if you read that other post, he bites. He does know how to lead correctly, but I think before I got him he wasn't used a lot and wasn't led much, therefore he isn't very comfortable with it. Sometimes he's good about it though.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

BreakableRider said:


> I'm going off topic a bit but still related to the things at hand. I am coming from a purely inquisitive point of view here.
> 
> You do ride this horse correct? However you do not like pressure or release for anything? How do you cue your horse to turn? Do you not apply pressure with your rein, leg or seat?
> 
> From your post on HGS I figured out there are quite a few problems leading this horse as well, do you not apply pressure on the halter to direct him?


I don't want to speak for the OP - but tradtionally with Clicker Training pressure is used as a cue - not a command. Meaning if the animal doesn't respond immediately or correctly, there is no repercussion, the pressure doesn't increase or get worse.
For example - turning right - I apply gentle pressure to my right rein, if my horse pulls away I keep the pressure evenly gentle by following her movement. When she turns in the direction of the pressure I relieve the pressure at the same time as using my bridge signal which means to her "yes - that's the right answer!" and results in a food reward. I do this a few times and she connects the dots, now she feels the rein lifting up and is turning her head before contact is ever made. She gets bridged and reinforced for the correct behavior.

So yes pressure can be used, but it's always light and never escalated.

This is speaking for regular +R trainers, the OP does her own thing, so I don't want to speak for her!


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

PunksTank: Thank you! That helps a lot. I will keep all that in mind. Also, that is amazing! I don't think I would have the patience to train 14 horses haha.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

babysgotchrome said:


> Oh! I guess I didn't really make it clear what I meant haha. I don't like pressure and release for things like tricks. Did I say I don't like pressure and real ease for anything? If I did, I didn't mean that. I do ride him yes, and I do apply pressure when riding and on the halter. However for things like backing up, I just step back with him. He does have problems leading, but I meant he doesn't respect space and if you read that other post, he bites. He does know how to lead correctly, but I think before I got him he wasn't used a lot and wasn't led much, therefore he isn't very comfortable with it. Sometimes he's good about it though.



I have a couple thoughts for you. First of all have you taught him to target? Using a target can help teach him the proper distance to be from you while leading. I use the target for unmounted agility with my pony  and for teaching all my horses to lead at liberty.


My other thoughts, while pressure is a valuable tool, if you're going to switch back and forth between only using -R (pressure/release) and +R (clicker training) the horse may develop resentment for the skills you do only with -R. So if you never incorporate +R with mounted work - only unmounted work or work without tack,then tack and mounted work may become an unwanted chore to the horse. 
My Belgian came to me very well broke (and seriously damaged physically) while repairing all the physical issues I did a lot of +R training on the ground. When he was sound and healthy I started taking him out on rides using only -R. While he was always a good boy, I could tell he hated it. He enjoyed the trails, but he was stubborn and grouchy and often pulled to stop and eat grass or would rush home. I started just adding a few Clicks+treats on our rides, whenever he was exceptional, like when 4 wild pigs came screaming across our path and he stayed steady without freaking, he got a C+T. Just adding this changed his mind completely about our rides. He stopped going for grass all together and when we turned around to go home he no longer rushed. I didn't need to "Train" him anything while mounted, he does everything I want, but reinforcing occasionally when he's good turned his moral around 100%


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

babysgotchrome said:


> PunksTank: Thank you! That helps a lot. I will keep all that in mind. Also, that is amazing! I don't think I would have the patience to train 14 horses haha.



LOL I train my own 3, luckily I have a group of teenage girl volunteers who all love our rescues, so I train them to train the horses - we work together for most of it  So I have lots of help!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

One more thing, if you are serious about using Clicker Training, please take the time to learn all the nitty-gritties. I firmly believe it's the way to go with training horses, especially pushy ones. But just like every training style it needs to be done in a way that's safe and affective. 

Here are a few resources to learn more:

Shawna Karrasch and On Target Training | Positive Reinforcement Clicker Training | Horse Training
Step-By-StepTrainingGuide
Equine Clicker Training

This is a great thread - the first few pages are the nitty-gritty details about the science behind +R and how to use it effectively. You can join in and keep people on the thread updated with how you and your horse are doing  We love to follow other CT trainers!
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

BreakableRider said:


> I'm going off topic a bit but still related to the things at hand. I am coming from a purely inquisitive point of view here.
> 
> You do ride this horse correct? However you do not like pressure or release for anything? How do you cue your horse to turn? Do you not apply pressure with your rein, leg or seat?
> 
> Are there problems leading this horse as well, do you not apply pressure on the halter to direct him?


Also, with the pressure and release thing, I meant I don't like the whole "if the horse doesn't do what you ask, increase the pressure" thing. I didn't mean I don't use pressure at all, I just meant I don't use it in that way.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

I will definitely look into that! I have a clicker, and I started using it on him a few months ago but I guess I just didn't really get into it with him. I keep meaning to start using it again, I just haven't had the time. It's definitely something I want to start using all the time!


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Yup, you stated you do not like it for anything which was quite confusing trying to think of it in riding terms. 

Before I start my nest bit I want to restate that i'm trying to be open minded and have a friendly conversation, I could post on the other thread, sure but it's long and sort of a mess. I am a very to the point person, i've been told I come across rude at times although it's not meant this way.

Now back to the positive reinforcement. If either of you have read my posts you'll know that I use 'natural horsemanship' though I pretty much detest the label and thus use pressure and release. I've been training both as an amateur for myself and as a professional for just under ten years. While there are quite a few circumstances where more pressure is applied after the initial soft cue there are just as many instances where I don't increase pressure, see my posts on backing a horse as an example and every new thing I introduce the horse has been exceptionally well prepared for it. I have content, relaxed horses that are ready to work and i've never seen a reason to add positive reinforcement to my program besides a bit of a wither scratch at times so it's all foreign territory to me.

Why does there seem to be a negative connotation with using pressure and release? Is it that many people as Punk has stated end up getting resistance and frustration in response? If this is the case it is being used inappropriately. It's something the horse is very familiar with in a herd setting and easily learns from it. It doesn't mean having to be mean to your horse, everyone's after the same thing, a horse that is willing and responding off a subtle cue. Using pressure and release properly should not result in an unhappy horse. 

What do you do when trying to teach a behavior using clicker training such as lunging and the horse doesn't respond to that soft cue and you can't for whatever reason escalate as Punk said? 

Is the treat and click ever phased out? How would you show a clicker trained horse? You can't very well pull treats out in the ring.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

babysgotchrome said:


> Also, with the pressure and release thing, I meant I don't like the whole "if the horse doesn't do what you ask, increase the pressure" thing. I didn't mean I don't use pressure at all, I just meant I don't use it in that way.


See, this is a misunderstanding of using pressure and release. Once the horse tries something, anything, you no longer keep increasing the pressure. You only increase the pressure until your horse tries. You stay at that point as the horse goes through offering different answers until you receive the desired response. 

If the horse has been prepared for whatever behavior you're introducing there shouldn't be a big escalation in pressure in the first place either.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Sorry for the confusion! And I guess I have only seen pressure and release as a negative thing. Honestly, I've never seen anyone use it right. My trainer uses it and unfortunately teaches her student to use it in a negative way. I'll just say she's not a "caring" person, and she's kind of mean to her horses sometimes. That's one reason why he's not comfortable with leading I think, if they do one little thing wrong they get a hard yank on the halter. And I can't answer those questions, as I don't use clicker training often and never got into it.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Also I hope I didn't offend you about anything. Like I said, I have never seen anyone use pressure and release correctly. I know how much I hate people bashing my horsemanship ways, and if it seems like I did that to you then I am sorry!


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

It's perfectly fine, this is what i'm liking about this thread. It's a nice open learning environment so far and hasn't turned into a crazy, hostile mess that controversial threads often turn into. Sorry i'm sort of taking over though. It's just interesting to hear the why's of positive reinforcement and the why's of why people don't use negative reinforcement ( or whatever word is correct for what I do) 

As I said it shouldn't feel like a negative thing at all. After the horse does offer the correct answer you release the pressure. It also shouldn't result in a horse getting worried about your tools because after sensitizing a horse to pressure you need to go back and desensitize.

You haven't offended me at all  In the same way you've never seen what I do done correctly i've never seen someone use positive reinforcement without creating a pushy monster. It doesn't mean either can't be done correctly.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I may have it totally wrong, given so little info, but I get the impression you are inexperienced & haven't looked far into any particular methods or philosophies? In that case, I'd suggest leaving your horse in the paddock for a while, while you learn more of the theory of behaviour & training, and find someone you respect who can give you hands-on lessons with him. It really is dangerous to play with a half ton(give or take) animal without any 'rules'.

Just have to say, Rookie your "As opposed to a behavior that is noxious but increases the behavior which would be negative reinforcement (such as a pile of fat in your fridge to remind you to stick to a diet)." confused & revolted me - no wonder I don't do diets!!:lol: I wonder if discussion on terminology is always so... convoluted! Could go on

I think it's easy to remember reinforcement is anything that strengthens a behaviour because it's a desirable outcome, punishment is anything that weakens it because it is undesirable, and the positive or negative as + addition & - subtraction ...So forgetting the fridge full of fat... To negatively reinforce _not_ biting would be to make it unpleasant when he's doing it & quit as soon as he does - squeezing his lip when he does & releasing it only when he stops. Or you could do the same & call it punishment _for_ biting. 



> I am going to start clicker training (I got into it a while ago then kind of got bored of it) and I don't really use any training methods, I really just do my own thing.


I think what Rookie means by what methodologies do you use is, if you don't believe in using negative reinforcement, what's 'your own thing' & how do you ride & work him? Do you understand the principles _behind _'Clicker Training'?



> Also, it's not something I want to do but I think I should maybe just get the "punishment" over so this doesn't get far enough to be a bad habit. I haven't exactly gotten far into liberty so I guess it won't be the end of the world if I do it this one time.


I would be thinking about *why* you don't want to use punishment & why you think it's incompatible or harmful to 'doing liberty'. I personally think punishment is of limited value in training for a number of reasons, including it tends to come with 'side effects' so should be used very judiciously, BUT if used effectively, with full understanding & consideration I don't think it's at all 'wrong' or 'harmful'.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

I used to use pressure and release I guess, but like I said my trainer teaches her students to use it wrong and I didn't like it. I had always hated the way she used it and her horses don't respect her, they are afraid of her because of it. I didn't want Baby to be afraid of me so I stopped using it. If she found out that I don't use her way anymore she would hate hate hate it  What we do now works for both me and Baby and he trusts me more than anyone else. I will just say he has "issues" and hasn't had a good past so trusting me like he does is a big step for him.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Loosie, it's not that I think it's harmful to liberty, I didn't explain it before but like I said above, Baby has issues and -R doesn't exactly work for him. It just makes him really scared. I'm not gonna say he was "abused" before because I don't know that exactly, but something bad definitely happened to him and like I just said -R scares him more than teaches him. I try not to use it because of that.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

A big saying I go by is that sensitizing builds respect and desensitizing builds trust. However they must go hand in hand. A horse isn't going to really trust someone who isn't a good leader and a horse isn't going to trust someone who isn't fair or someone who doesn't also desensitize to their tools.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

And I most likely don't make sense to anyone about what I'm saying lol. It makes sense to me but I understand how it would be confusing to you guys. I honestly don't know how to put what I do into words!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

BreakableRider - you have wonderful, fantastic questions. 
I don't think any of us "look down" on Pressure/Release. I also don't think gentle, non-escalating pressure will result in resistance once the cue is understood by the horse. You're right, done correctly and patiently P+R works well, there's a reason it's so common! But with any training style, people rush - increase the force to try to speed up the process. 
If you look at the four quadrants of learning (+Reinforcement, -Reinforcement, +Punishment, -Punishment) I believe all four are effective ways to learn and be taught - if you're working on a relationship of balance and coorperation the only one I feel should be removed is +punishment (adding something unwanted to decrease the frequency of a behavior). I've explained in previous posts exactly why I don't agree with +punishment. But +R and -R are valuable tools when used correctly.

If you have NO need for +R, then you don't need it. 
I did. I had an 8 year old draft horse who came to me knowing only one thing - she's stronger than me. With typical P+R training she learned well, but had a few gaping holes I couldn't fix with P+R (or even bribery!!) I tried everything short of abuse, I hired several trainers over the time. I finally gave up and decided she'd be a pasture pet. When I found +R she made a complete turn around we are actively trail riding and working together at liberty, her fear issues are dissipating.

If you see no reason to add +R to your program, then it sounds like your mind is made up? 

As for your questions about a why we don't just use P+R because it's how horses work in a herd... This is slightly more complex. I'll let someone more eloquent and better studied than me explain it. This article is fairly short and to the point,I have to thank Loosie for showing this to me in another thread - it absolutely encompasses my feelings about dominance in horse training. The Dominance Model and Horsemanship by Equine Ethology Are Dead | enlightened horsemanship through touch


As for your question about lunging! I love this one because I'm actively working on lunging at liberty with my mare  I say it this way because we are in a full field, not a round pen - she has 100% choice whether or not to be with me doing as I ask. I use my whip behind her as my subtle, non-escalating cue. When she does the right thing I click+treat. 
I taught her to do this by setting her up to lunge like as if she already new how. I clicked and treated when she walked off and circled me. I pointed which direction I wanted and clicked as soon as she went off that way. I did this until she was actively walking circles around me. Now that I have a solid walk and choice of direction I want her to trot too. Rather than increase the pressure to make her trot I now start increasing my own energy and C+T when she moves faster. I took advantage of a cold day when she was feeling frisky, she trotted I C+T. I do this several times until she connects the cue with the skill. At first I had to C+T when she took her first step away from me in the correct direction at the walk, then when she completed a circle at the walk, then when she increased her speed at the walk, then when she trotted, now she lunges walk/trot I can C+T at the very end of the process, rather than frequently in the middle. I don't teach my horses to canter on the lunge simply because I think it's too stressful on their joints.
Here's a video of us working on trotting more on cue, this is fairly old so pardon the imperfections. You'll notice I don't need to increase the pressure with the whip.
*With CT the horse will increase their own criteria* - so you don't need to increase the pressure. They want their reward so much they try harder to get it - if walking on the lunge works, trotting would be better right? At 2:21 you might notice she doesn't go right when I ask her, she was eating what she dropped, you'll notice I didn't increase the pressure, just waited a moment and she was right off again like a good girl.







As for your great question about "are treats phased out". Personally, I've never gone 100% without treats! Because IMO no horse is ever "fully trained" they've never learned everything. When I train a behavior I have 2 options, I can increase the criteria - so when I ask the horse to back up at first I have to C+T the very thought of shifting backwards - but by the end I don't C+T until the horse has backed as far as I want, even if it means they have to back up all the way around the arena! (and they do without being asked twice) My other option is to build a behavioral chain. This is my preference.
Behavioral chains link together several skills that have each been trained and reinforced individually. So for example teaching my mare to be ridden. I taught her "walk on" C+T, C+T until she had that solid. Then "woah" C+T, C+T until she had a solid stop. Then "turn right" C+T, C+T, until she consistently turned right. Now each skill has been reinforced thoroughly and the horse eagerly looks forward to performing these skills because it's always been met with something wonderful. So now I ask for "walk on","turn right", "stop" then C+T. Each skill rewards the one before it until the end C+T. 
Another option used often in the show ring is using a verbal click or a click might be a subtle touch on the withers - but the horse is taught after a click to carry on, the reward comes at the end. Just like my lunging, I had to reinforce every second at first, then I had to reinforce every transition,now she's just reinforced at the end, because each skill has been so thoroughly reinforced she's eager to do each and get her reward at the end of the chain.

There are several horses competing grand prix and olympic level that have been trained either soley with CT or with CT to fix a problem (Judgement the jumper for example used CT to overcome a fear of waterjumps)

This is Georgia Bruce, her horses are taught soley with +R training but you won't see her C+T during a demo or competition:






I could go on but the first few pages of the thread I linked to earlier does explain all of these things  but happy to keep answering questions if you've got them!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Baby'sGotChrome - I have to pack on with Loosie here. I think CT is an incredibly valuable tool to have in your tool box, working at liberty is exhilarating and wonderful. But to be safe in the process it is important to learn all the facts behind how to use it effectively. You've made a fantastic first step "asking for help". I hope you're as passionate as you sound and do the reading


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

BreakableRider said:


> A big saying I go by is that sensitizing builds respect and desensitizing builds trust. However they must go hand in hand. A horse isn't going to really trust someone who isn't a good leader and a horse isn't going to trust someone who isn't fair or someone who doesn't also desensitize to their tools.


This is another great one (you've got me going now ) I agree, tools need to mean something - but they also shouldn't be something to be afraid of.
My mare is about as spooky as a horse gets - remnants of Lyme disease and a poor diet. I found a pile of things in my barn and lined them up from easy (plastic bottles) to seriously hard (cordless drill) and everything in between, including tarps and bags and fans. I started with the easiest, got her targetting the object (touch her nose to the object for a C+T) and got her to accept it rubbed on her and bounced around (the plastic bottles were all hung on hay rope and full of pebbles to be loud). The cordless drill (of course with the bit taken out so no moving parts to be felt) was tough for her, she quickly learned touching the object made it stop and got her a reward. Now it's kinda hard to fix things in my barn without her coming over xD
This is when I decided that when introducing scary things I'd have her "put your head down" instead of targetting the object. This continued to work really well. The objects are still something to think about, but not be afraid of.


working on tarps:


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

I definitely think CT is an amazing thing, both of my favorite horse "trainers" use it, and are a BIG inspiration for everything that I do. You may have heard of them, Emily and her horse Tacoma, and Mosie and her horse Annie. Both of them use CT and do everything at liberty, so I do have something to look up to. Also, I am safe with everything I do and don't do anything to put me or Baby in "danger". I'm a very cautious person  I don't do anything either of us aren't ready to do. Baby is also an extremely cautious horse, so a lot of things take more time than it would any other horse. We fit together well lol.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Boy this thread certainly took off! I wrote my first reply when there was no other & my second one when there were only about 3 others.... so they got 'outdated' by the responses in the meantime, find that it is a complete misunderstanding that OP is into 'purist' +R. ...It was the behavioural terminology instead of 'lay' terms that got me assuming.:lol:

Breakable you make some interesting points & questions I want to respond to...


BreakableRider said:


> Why does there seem to be a negative connotation with using pressure and release? Is it that many people as Punk has stated end up getting resistance and frustration in response? If this is the case it is being used inappropriately.


Agree that if that's the problem.... But I'm inclined to think those who are against it have probably seen too much bad use of force & punishment, &/or have looked at the ideal of +R training & have 'thrown the baby out with the bathwater, believing it has to be one or the other.



> What do you do when trying to teach a behavior using clicker training such as lunging and the horse doesn't respond to that soft cue and you can't for whatever reason escalate as Punk said?


If you fail to get the response you want, go back to an 'easier' level of the exercise that the horse understands & then progress more gradually.



> Is the treat and click ever phased out? How would you show a clicker trained horse? You can't very well pull treats out in the ring.


Absolutely c & t is phased out(I phased out the 'c' bit from my horse training years ago!:lol. It is a method of teaching & continuing it would be like.... giving a professional writer a gold star every time they spelled a word right! 



> Baby has issues and -R doesn't exactly work for him. It just makes him really scared.


I think it sounds like a misunderstanding of the term/principles and that you need a *good* trainer to learn from for a change:wink:. If -R didn't work for him, (purists aside) you wouldn't be able to work or ride him. It's badly used, unclear training that can frighten & confuse a horse, not -R per se. I believe in the *principle* of 'be as soft as possible but as firm as necessary', but in practice, I believe anything like strong pressure is very rarely necessary and it often just escallates fear & confusion.... & it's often fear & confusion that causes people to feel the need to increase pressure.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

BabysGotChrome, that's great  Some more great CT trainers are Shawna Karrasch and Alexander Kurland. One of the links I posted earlier was Shawna's she has fantastic (free) information and videos with horses demonstrating skills - I learned a lot from her site (and clinic )


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Yes it has! I don't know how all this started lol. But anyway, what I think happened to Baby was a bad use of "-R" (like I said, my trainer mis-uses it) and it made him scared of a lot of -R things, for example a small "pat" on the shoulder or back end is a really scary thing to him. But I am kind of confused about all the -R stuff and all that so I may not even know what I'm talking about lol. To be honest, he doesn't even like to be touched in a positive way most of the time! Before I got him he went to a bad owner that kept him inside most of the time, never rode him or anything and we think he's just not used to attention now. And then when my barn bought him back from them, he didn't get attention there either so it just added to the mess. I am working with him on it though and he's getting better. Like I said, he has a lot of issues.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

First I've got to say, I love hearing from you Loosie! 
I wanted to add to some of what you said, if you don't mind?


loosie said:


> If you fail to get the response you want, go back to an 'easier' level of the exercise that the horse understands & then progress more gradually.


The other crucial thing, with P+R training, to increase the skill the pressure needs to be either applied again or increased. For example, if you want a horse to go forward while lunging you'll swing the whip, using some rhythmic pressure of the whip swinging. If you want the horse to trot you'll either start swinging again (assuming the horse continues when the swinging stops) if you need to be swinging the whole time then you need to swing harder and quicker to increase the pressure to get the horse to trot.
While with CT horses will increase their own criteria. I already explained about my horse lunging but here's another example. All of my horses are taught to stand with all 4 feet on the ground and their noses on their jolly ball (hanging in their stall) when it's feeding time. At first I had to teach them to touch it C+T each time. Then I started just going to their stall and telling them to go to their ball at feeding time. Now as soon as the grain bin opens my horses are all at their ball waiting patiently. My Belgian (who's too smart for his own good) has increased it further and started tossing his ball around at feeding time xD I've been shaping that back down to standing quietly at the ball now, but it shows the horse will increase their skill in hopes of getting their reward better or faster or bigger. 
This is also what we need to be careful with! Some times when a horse escalates a skill it may escalate to biting a target or pawing a ground target - this would require shaping it back to the original skill (only reinforcing the desired behavior and not the escalated version). My pony kicks a football, but knows not to kick cones on the ground with this shaping method.


The other thing you mentioned I wanted to pipe in on 


loosie said:


> Absolutely c & t is phased out(I phased out the 'c' bit from my horse training years ago!:lol. It is a method of teaching & continuing it would be like.... giving a professional writer a gold star every time they spelled a word right!


I'm fairly certain you know this, but for the others, the click is a "bridge signal" it bridges the skill the horse performed with the reward they receive shortly after. It buys you time to get the food out and allows you to reward precise behaviors that you might not otherwise be able to reward (I can't be feeding her while she's lunging at a trot! so I need a bridge to connect it). I use a clicker for teaching new or difficult skills, but most often I use a smooch noise because I'm lazy and always loose my clickers and can't always carry them with me. It doesn't matter what you use as a bridge signal, so long as it won't be mistaken for anything else.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

I will definitely look at them tomorrow!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

babysgotchrome said:


> Yes it has! I don't know how all this started lol. But anyway, what I think happened to Baby was a bad use of "-R" (like I said, my trainer mis-uses it) and it made him scared of a lot of -R things, for example a small "pat" on the shoulder or back end is a really scary thing to him. But I am kind of confused about all the -R stuff and all that so I may not even know what I'm talking about lol. To be honest, he doesn't even like to be touched in a positive way most of the time! Before I got him he went to a bad owner that kept him inside most of the time, never rode him or anything and we think he's just not used to attention now. And then when my barn bought him back from them, he didn't get attention there either so it just added to the mess. I am working with him on it though and he's getting better. Like I said, he has a lot of issues.


-R is "removing something the horse doesn't want, when the horse does the right thing, in order to increase the likliehood the horse will repeat the right behavior" so your horse being afraid of being pat, is most likely he's spooky in general or has been punished a lot. -R uses pressure, usually gentle, sometimes escalating if the horse doesn't respond correctly or timely, but usually not violently or aggressively (though some trainers can be awful) when the horse does the right thing the pressure is relieved.

Versus +R, when the horse does the right thing they get a reward. You have to set them up to do the right thing, either by shaping it (literally clicking for every inch closer to the desired end behavior), luring it out of them (teaching them to touch a target and having them follow it however way you need), or using gentle, non-escalating pressure. 
I mostly use non-escalating pressure and using the target - but sometimes I shape for little things, like wanting my horse more round while lunging.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Okay thank you. Baby is both spooky and has been punished a lot. -R and +R has been used so many times here that I was getting confused! Lol


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

babysgotchrome said:


> Okay thank you. Baby is both spooky and has been punished a lot. -R and +R has been used so many times here that I was getting confused! Lol


It does get confusing! so sorry
Thinking of it in quadrants might help(or maybe it'll be more confusing ). But try not to get too hung up on the words  it's how you use them that's important. When you have time definitely read up, watch videos and fill yourself with knowledge!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

PunksTank said:


> so your horse being afraid of being pat, is most likely he's spooky in general or has been punished a lot.


...or has just never been desensitised to it. I don't enjoy being patted & have noticed that most animals don't seem to either, although horses have usually learned to tolerate it. I remember the first couple of times people saw fit to come up & smack my horse, the first horse I ever started, who'd grown up wild - got a reaction! And the next horse I had from a baby jumped back & ditched me when I wasn't ready & someone smacked him on the neck. So desensitising to being smacked is one thing I've always done, as it seems to be a habit common to people.:wink:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Wow this thread has grown (the fat in the fridge is not working  ). Its really interesting but a bit off the original topic. I think with this horse being a bit sensitive to touch that he might benefit from a massage. This could be a good way for you and your horse to build a relationship. 

For the biting, I would try clicker training. Click correct leading and treat. That said if he puts his teeth to you, I would in this situation give a good smack. The other option I have heard people is use is holding a nail so that when the horse goes in to bite he gets poked by the nail. This is positive punishment but it may not be associated with you. Its like when I was house training my dog, who was seriously under socialized. I did not want him to associate being yelled at with me. So, I got an air horn. He urinated once in one room of the house and I air horned him. He stopped what he was doing and ran out of the room. He did not associate me with the "punishment" but associated the action with the punishment and has not had a problem since. With the nail, your horse will associate it with the action and not directly with you because you are not doing anything out of the ordinary.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

rookie said:


> Wow this thread has grown (the fat in the fridge is not working  ). Its really interesting but a bit off the original topic. I think with this horse being a bit sensitive to touch that he might benefit from a massage. This could be a good way for you and your horse to build a relationship.
> 
> For the biting, I would try clicker training. Click correct leading and treat. That said if he puts his teeth to you, I would in this situation give a good smack. The other option I have heard people is use is holding a nail so that when the horse goes in to bite he gets poked by the nail. This is positive punishment but it may not be associated with you. Its like when I was house training my dog, who was seriously under socialized. I did not want him to associate being yelled at with me. So, I got an air horn. He urinated once in one room of the house and I air horned him. He stopped what he was doing and ran out of the room. He did not associate me with the "punishment" but associated the action with the punishment and has not had a problem since. With the nail, your horse will associate it with the action and not directly with you because you are not doing anything out of the ordinary.



Rookie, I love your open minded approach to everything.
Your suggestion is great - but depending on how heavy into +R the OP wants to get it may cause trouble.
What happens when you mix +R with +P is you create what's called a "poisoned cue", CT requires a horse to try to do the right thing when we ask, we use motivators to convince them, but if the horse performs wrong and we add punishment you can easily kill their will to try.
If you're punished for getting something wrong, you're not going to try so hard to figure out what right is, for fear you might be punished.
For example, I had been working on "back up" with my pony a few times - we got a solid 2-3 steps back I took a break and went back. When I went back I set him up and asked him to back up, he shot backwards about 6 steps which was great! But he hit an electric fence - got zapped. It took me several weeks of gentle coercing to get him to even try to back up again. He was working so hard like as if to say "I GOT IT! Look I'll back up alot!!" like a kid so excited to show his mom his new skill, but then he got zapped.

I'm afraid if the horse is being lead, and goes to nip and he gets jabbed with a nail (first off I'd be terrified he'd poke his eye out!!) I'm afraid he won't want anything to do with leading after that - if the wrong answer is punished, why try?

What I would do is (what I always do is) teach the horse to touch a target with his nose (this usually takes 15 minutes total - they're so fast) then teach them to lead by following the target - this puts them at the correct distance from your body and teaches them where their nose should be. Biting gets them nothing, other than maybe their person (and all the wonderful things they bring) might leave - but following the target brings them wonderful things. I use the target to teach everything on the ground from here on out, standing, backing, side passing, yielding - everything.
Another exercise she might try is just standing beside the horse with the treats in pocket and waiting at his shoulder, when he stands calmly and faces forward C+T, repeat this until he has a solid understanding that all food only comes when standing calmly and facing forward. If throughout all your training you only reinforce them when they're respecting your space, you'll never have an issue. But I fear in this situation the horse may have been reinforced (at least a little) for being nippy at some point, so it's going to take a little bit more time to fix this - but I think those two skills will help her out a lot!

This short video shows my second thought of teaching him to stand facing forward
Video 1

This is a great reference on teaching your horse to lead politely using CT 
On The Ground : On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

To begin, the horse needs enough lead rope to walk his own path, not with a hand holding the lead under the chin which will invite nipping/biting. Hold the lead about 30" away from his jaw and as you walk suddenly flap a bent elbow. Do this randomly as you walk. He'll start keeping his mouth away from you but if he doesn't and you see it coming, clip him with your elbow. It will surprise him more than anything and he won't want to connect again. When people slap a horse, it's always after the fact. A flapping elbow catches him during the act. If you used treats to clicker train, he may be after the treats. I've done clicker training and my arm was always extended so that the horse had to turn his head away to get the treat. It was never offered near my body.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have not read this full thread and am only reacting to the OP who wants to cure a horse of biting using no negative reinforcement, Hmmmmmmm.


Training ALWAYS employs negative/positive reinforcement. To say you want to use NO negative reinforcement is not realistic. Negative reinforcement comes in many different forms. It can go from ignoring (yes, this can be quite negative) to smacking. There is a huge area in between.

If a horse doesn't do something you want them to do out of ignorance, you ignore the lack of reaction and simply keep asking. This ignoring has negative aspects because there is no relief from the pressure of your asking for the improvement. BUT, the moment that there is even the slightest improvement (no matter how small) you switch to strong positive reinforcement. See how even ignoring poor behavior can be negative? 

Negative reinforcement is the pressure we put in a horse. You squeeze with your legs to energize. This is negative pressure. Then the horse reacts appropriately and the horse gets praised. THIS is the positive. The big difference is in what limits you put on the negative/positive uses.

Without the negative, the positive has nothing to build on.

When the horse is actively engaging in a dangerous willful activity, such as biting, ignoring isn't quite negative enough.

If a horse bites me, I give it a negative reaction.....usually a quick jerk on a stud chain (I deal with a lot of stallions and when I am training on the ground, I usually have one on, though rarely need to employ it). Or, I give a small smack. Then I will stand still. When the horse stops trying to bite, I praise it. I am 100% consistent in this. The horse always knows what to expect when they try to bite. 

The praise is what the horse starts looking for. I never "beat" a horse for biting. The punishment needs to be instant and it needs to be fair. One reaction for one infraction. Stallions are very attuned to "fair punishment", trust me. 

I have been given very rank stallions to deal with. I usually have dramatic improvement in the first week they are with me. They learn to seek my positive reinforcement and stop giving me the reasons for any quick reactions.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I can't think of too many things more basic than being able to safely lead an obedient and respectful horse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Before you go for your walk, before you even halter him, make him move. Use a lunge whip to keep yourself out of kicking distance. Just wiggle it and encourage him to walk away. Follow him and keep him moving. It doesn't have to be in circles. A dominant horse will do this to a lower ranking horse. This will establish your dominance and help gain his respect. Then turn your whip away from him, tip to the ground, and slowly walk backwards. This may draw him to you. The more you ask a horse to move away, the more he will try to join you.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> Rookie, I love your open minded approach to everything.
> 
> I'm afraid if the horse is being lead, and goes to nip and he gets jabbed with a nail (first off I'd be terrified he'd poke his eye out!!) I'm afraid he won't want anything to do with leading after that - if the wrong answer is punished, why try? QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Agree with Rookie's idea of the nail.... but I wouldn't use a nail or anything that may actually do some damage. A wire brush is something I find does little damage but they don't want to bite twice! Same principle as an electric fence.


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## babysgotchrome (Nov 28, 2013)

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the help. I will definitely use some of the advice I've gotten. Also, I don't need any more help so I would appreciate it if I didn't get any more replies


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Training ALWAYS employs negative/positive reinforcement. To say you want to use NO negative reinforcement is not realistic. Negative reinforcement comes in many different forms. It can go from ignoring (yes, this can be quite negative) to smacking.


Hi Alison, seems like you should have read the thread - we all basically agree that -R or punishment would be appropriate here:wink:, and the OP was confused as to what -R is - has only seen bad egs of training it seems.

But as we're discussing behavioural terminology, what you write above is incorrect. Some people DO claim not to use any -R or punishment at all, and many, many, many people don't use positive reinforcement in training at all. And ignoring & hitting a horse in the way you mean is positive punishment.... although I think ignoring would be more like a negative reinforcement for many horses, who would find that very 'rewarding'!:wink:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

babysgotchrome said:


> Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the help. I will definitely use some of the advice I've gotten. Also, I don't need any more help so I would appreciate it if I didn't get any more replies


Oh but the ball's well & truly... gathering no moss now!


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## Centered (Oct 28, 2009)

I had a QH who grabbed at lead shanks, longe lines, reins etc, and yes sometimes he nipped us when he grabbed at our clothes. The biggest issue was leading. When he had hold of the reins, lead rope, longe line etc he would not let go and leading was near impossible. I should note here that he was a super school horse. He had been gelded as a 5 year old and had bred at least 1-2 mares so that may have been a part of the issue. He was at least 9 when he arrived at my barn as a boarder.
Swatting him or any type of physical punishment made it into a game for him, so definitely not effective.
I decided that he needed to discover that he didn't like the taste of these things so he would stop on his own. I sprayed (outdoors because the fumes cause a gag reflex) Chew Stop. I sprayed his new reins and all the lead ropes in the barn. The next time he was led into the arena he grabbed the reins and immediately spat them out! Then he tried scrapping the taste off his tongue with his teeth. Ce couldn't believe what happened so he tried again! Same reaction from him. He cured himself and never grabbed the reins again. For several months I refreshed the flavour of the reins every 2 weeks or so because he did occasionally halfheartedly test them.
Since your horse does this mainly when you lead him, you might try this solution.
Good luck!


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## fastfillynz1 (May 5, 2012)

If you are going down the( natural) horsemanship track. Then you need to take a look at how mares, foals, and horses in general treat each other, and sometimes it is not nice. When you have seen a lady have a breast removed by a biting horse then you don't muck around and try to be airy fairy here!!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This thread is 2 months old and the OP has not been back on this thread or posted anywhere else here since the day after she first posted this question.


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

_Babysgotchrome, it's been 2 months since you posted about the biting problem. How is the training going?:?:_


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## theresay1960 (Oct 31, 2013)

ok when teaching foals not to bite you watch them and move your hand so they run into your stiff fingers in the side of their face or jaw just enough that its uncomfortable. they soon learn it's not fun to try and bite and give it up. An older horse thats made a game of biteing this will not work on.


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