# when dogs are not properly confined...



## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

There's a difference between letting dogs roam and a dog that is determined to get out! The first lot I can't stand. I'm in the 2nd lot. My dobie is quite content to stay in her fenced yard. My other dog is a houdini dog. Most of the time she can't get out, but sometimes she'll keep trying until she finds a weak area and boom she's gone! Fortunately she is not one to chase the cows and horses and just wants to run around. I believe it's because she was a stray and just likes the open road, so to speak. If she ever did kill livestock, her number would be up as well.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Mine was like your escaper too, but I found a way to make 100% sure she stays in. I guess I'm lucky because she's a wimp when it comes to pain so an electric collar does the trick even on the lowest zap setting. Only, MY dog is a hunter, so she was that much more likely to maul someone's livestock if she got involved with a pack. That's why I got the zap fence, even though I felt like it was a horrible thing to do to her.

I have the most horrible feeling that I know which dog is responsible for the maulings, though, and it would be awful if I was right. AC said that people have been reporting a German Shepherd among the pack and there's a GS down the road from me that's very aggressive towards horses. I wouldn't put it past him to attack a sheep, and the fences he's in are nowhere near high enough to keep him in. But his owners really don't need to lose a dog right now on top of everything else they've got going on, the guy's sister just passed away, so I hope beyond hope that I'm wrong... I just have a feeling it's this GS, another dog down the road that gets out all the time, and the pitbull and retriever that belong to my neighbour on the one side. I so hope I'm wrong.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm surprised no one has caught the dogs in the act and shot them. I agree with you that it is sad that people don't keep their dogs under control. And it's the dog that will end up paying for it with their lives. There was one shot just up the street from me by Fish and Game for harassing a herd of bull elk this winter. The owner was really upset about it. Said he had just let the dog out to go to the bathroom. But the dog was over 3 blocks away from home. I don't understand people that let their dog out to to the bathroom in an unfenced yard without going out with them. You know that dog is heading for the neighbors yard to do it's business. Or to chase the elk 3 blocks away in this case. 

I love my dogs but it's getting harder and harder to own dogs because irresponsible owners are turning people against dogs.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I just feel like running around yelling 'EARTH TO DOG OWNERS, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR DOGS.' It's so frustrating to see people get animals and not have one ounce of responsibility...


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

We are the ONLY people in our entire area that do not leave their dogs outside, unfenced and unleashed to roam the neighborhood -- drives me batsh*t crazy! People actually think we are strange to require that we know where our dogs are, at all times, and be in direct control of them. Yes, I take them outside off-leash, but only after we have instilled a strong recall and they understand just where they are/aren't allowed to be. They are NOT allowed to cross our property line without direct permission - even when they are chasing the other peoples' dogs off of OUR property (ie out of the horse pasture or away from us when we are charged by a barking dog for having the nerve to be outside in our own yard), our dogs understand their pursuit/job ends as soon as we call them "off" or they come to the edge of our yard and they immediately, happily, return to my side. I can't tell you how many dogs I dodge trying to get to/from town (or how many don't get dodged and end up being injured or killed), how many piles of dog poop I have picked up in areas of our property we do not take OUR dogs to, how many things have been peed on, chewed on, destroyed....how many times I have caught dogs in our horse pasture (I actually wish our horses were MORE aggressive with dogs, they tolerate them and I would rather they invite the dogs to leave). And it's like talking to brick walls when you try to voice your concern about any of it..........


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I honestly cannot tell you how many dogs we've had to shoot over the years. We have dogs and horses on our place so we will sometimes have stray dogs just show up. The first time, we'll catch them and turn them over to the city dog catcher if we don't know who the owner is. If we know the owner, we call them to come get the dog and tell them that if it ends up at our place again, all bets are off.

If the stray shows up again and starts picking a fight with our dogs or chasing our horses, they get a bullet and the owner is called again to tell them that we just shot their dog.

It upsets people, but we take great care to try to keep _our_ dogs secured, they should be able to do the same. There are ways to keep them safely on their own property if they would just take the time and care to do it. Fences, shock collars, tethers, etc.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

This is sure hitting home today. I saw a dog dead on the side of the road when leaving my house this morning. It was so heart breaking. What makes a person think they don't have to be responsible for their dog?? It was the 2nd dead dog ive seen in the past 3 months. 
Where I live MANY people leave their dogs unattended and out to roam. I have 3 dogs- all indoor dogs. They go out to pee and play and I stay out there with them. I am not even worried about them attacking a person or animal, i am concerned for THEM. I would be horrified if my dog died due to my negligence. 
Even my neighbors have 6 dogs, 4 are outdoor 24/7. 2 stay on the property and the other 2 harrass nearby dogs. What does this mean for me? It means I cant take my dogs out on my trails without fear of their dogs running up and causing a fight. It means that when those dogs run onto my property, i am rushed to get my dogs inside as to prevent any controversy. I have 3 pitbulls. If I left them out and an animal or anything got hurt near us, my animal would be the ones blamed.
It is horribly sad how flippant people are about their animals. Why bother adopting or buying an animal if you arent going to properly care for them? This includes vet appts, vaccines, emergency care, restraining them and food and water!
Rant over.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I would have shot the dogs my self. My dogs are harmless. (aside from small rodents), the worst thing they would do to livestock is herd it around. Any dog that could be people, dog or livestock aggressive should be confined or supervised at all times. 

Can you immagine how terrified the sheep would be and how much pain they would be in? The owners need to wake up and be adults.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> I would have shot the dogs my self. My dogs are harmless. (aside from small rodents), the worst thing they would do to livestock is herd it around. Any dog that could be people, dog or livestock aggressive should be confined or supervised at all times.
> 
> Can you immagine how terrified the sheep would be and how much pain they would be in? The owners need to wake up and be adults.


Even "harmless" dogs need to be contained and supervised. Herding livestock around is harrassment of that livestock.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> I would have shot the dogs my self. My dogs are harmless. (aside from small rodents), the worst thing they would do to livestock is herd it around. Any dog that could be people, dog or livestock aggressive should be confined or supervised at all times.
> 
> Can you immagine how terrified the sheep would be and how much pain they would be in? The owners need to wake up and be adults.


blue- just out of curiosity... if your harmless dogs made their way onto my property while i was outside with my dogs and my dogs caused damage to yours... would you be upset?


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Wasn't trying to pick on you, btw, blue......but the "he/she" is harmless argument is what every single owner of the dogs I was thinking of in my post uses. I do not care if they are harmless, they do not belong off their owner's property, period.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

EASY THERE. I was in a hurry writing that and forgot to add the sentence (and I cant edit)

_"My dogs are harmless. (aside from small rodents), the worst thing they would do to livestock is herd it around.*But they are still kept confined and only alowed loose when supervised* .Any dog that could be people, dog or livestock aggressive should be confined or supervised at all times. "_

And no, my dogs are not allowed to go "harrass" other peoples livestock under any circumstances. Neither are they allowed on others property. the sentence was poorly worded on my part. I stated " the worst they would do is herd" as an example, i.e. even though the worst thing they would do is herd, they are still controlled at all times.

All dogs(or for that matter all pets/ livestock) should be controlled by their owners, and those with a high likely hood of any form of aggression should be very strictly managed.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> blue- just out of curiosity... if your harmless dogs made their way onto my property while i was outside with my dogs and my dogs caused damage to yours... would you be upset?


At my self. It is the owners resonsibility to controll their animals.


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

Ok, I see where some wording was left out of your previous post. And your answer to my question was spot on. I just wouldnt want to be blamed for another owners irresponsibility.
You dont sound like that type of owner.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

So my neighbour has been losing lambs :/ different guy to the one with the mauled sheep. I thought at first it was birds of prey as he said they were simply disappearing, but then he found one with bite marks on its head.

My quiet harmless wouldn't know what to do in a pack dog (brain damaged, thick as two short planks, but very sweet) has been wandering unbeknownst to us and said neighbour saw her at his place and came over and accused her of hurting his sheep... I seriously doubt it is her, she honestly doesn't even snap at flies, but we've put the electric collar on her anyway. If the disappearing lambs continue to disappear, we'll know it's not her. If it stops, then we've nipped the issue in the bud. Neighbour is happy, dog is contained. We never thought she would wander, she honestly never used to be brave enough...

yep I have been quick to jump on other owners for not keeping their dogs in an area they can't physically get out of, and yep, two of my three are exactly the same... difference is, one is too old to go anywhere, one I thought was too timid, and the third has an electric collar that zaps the poop out of her if she tries.


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## KarrotKreek (Mar 31, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> My quiet harmless wouldn't know what to do in a pack dog (brain damaged, thick as two short planks, but very sweet) has been wandering unbeknownst to us and said neighbour saw her at his place and came over and accused her of hurting his sheep... I seriously doubt it is her


You realize the importance of securely containing dogs... so I'll not harp.
But for your sake, and your dog's, I'd immediately physically contain your dog. Then start electric collar training, but that takes time to be a trusted alternative. All it takes is some high level prey drive to kick in (ooh!!! [email protected]!!! Must chase squirrel) and in a second the dog runs through the invisible barrier with no more deterrent to not keep going. Then the doggie ADD sets in and next thing you know your pooch is wandering the local neighborhood till a sane thought or hunger prompts pooch to head home or animal control picks up a new catch.

Depending on where you live, the conversation the farmer had with you may be more than plenty to legally allow him to shoot your dog if it trespasses again- even if it's not caught in the act. Some places don't even require owner notification. May not be fair if your dog didn't do it, but it is his right to protect his livestock.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you can, suggest to the fellow that he cage a lamb and lock the others up and get up high and wait. The lamb's cries will bring the dogs in and he'll be able to shoot them. This worked for a friend that was losing goats.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

KK, she doesn't HAVE a prey drive... like I said brain damaged, she's not a normal dog. But she is contained at night and now wears the collar during the day, and in my experience with my dogs pain is a very effective deterrent.

The trouble is I can't tie her, she can't have a collar with any pressure on it due to an old neck injury. I don't own the property so can't put proper dog fencing in, and I don't have $300 sitting around for a pen for her. My vet fund doesn't get touched except for emergency vet bills.

I don't know the legalities of shooting dogs that are harrassing livestock here in Aus, other than that it's the land owner's right to destroy any animal that they see on their property if they believe it to be worrying their stock... I don't think he would be allowed to come over and destroy any of our dogs with them on our property as there would then be no proof that they were wandering and harming or worrying his sheep.

However the issue is being addressed, and the dog in question, though I really doubt she would do anything to harm his sheep, is being contained. The oldest dog is 12, very territorial, arthritic, and doesn't leave the house yard unless she's with the company of her people. The dumb one is 10 and obviously needs to learn there are consequences to wandering... she used to be very timid and wouldn't leave the house except to do her business but living here she has gotten a lot more bold. The youngest is nearly 4 and has a HUGE prey drive, she's the one I wouldn't put past attacking sheep but she's also the one that is trained for the electric collar and doesn't even test it any more as long as I put it on her for one day every week.


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## Failbhe (May 8, 2012)

I think it's funny (not haha funny, weird funny) that Animal Control said there was nothing you could do unless someone caught the dogs in the act... a few years ago, we had issues with two stray dogs harassing our horses/dogs. They couldn't get through our non-climb fence (5 feet high, 2x4 inch spacing) but they threw themselves at it and snarled like they were rabid. By the time I ran inside and got the gun they had run off. When we called AC they brought us a 'live trap' big enough for one of these monsters and we set it up on our property in the area we knew they had been before. That very night we caught one of them and AC came and picked him up in the morning. We were a little worried his buddy would come back alone but we never saw it again.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

The live trapping is a way of ensuring you DO catch them in the act though... you can't catch it in a trap if it doesn't go near the trap, so a dog in a trap is plenty of proof that the dog has been wandering onto your property.

I'm not 100% on the legalities like I said but here, a farmer is well within his rights to shoot any dog that he sees on his property. I'm pretty sure that it has to be ON his property when it's shot, as proof. Live trapping is one way of making sure of that.


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## KarrotKreek (Mar 31, 2012)

KarrotKreek said:


> Depending on where you live, the conversation the farmer had with you may be more than plenty to legally allow him to shoot your dog if it trespasses again- even if it's not caught in the act. Some places don't even require owner notification. May not be fair if your dog didn't do it, but it is his right to protect his livestock.


To clarify, I just meant that the dog could be shot, at the farm in question, if it trespasses again, even harmlessly. "In the act" would be chasing or attacking livestock. I'm not saying someone could come to your home and shoot your dog!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Even had you been, Karrot, it probably wouldn't be relevant to me because we are literally a world apart.

I do really seriously doubt that the dog in question would be harming the lambs... I have a strong feeling it's my neighbour's dog (other side), I have found that dog with blood on its face before and no visible wounds on the dog himself. I should tell his owners... he is a terrible wanderer and they honestly don't even try to keep him in :/


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