# 7 Parelli Games?



## LikeaTB

What do y'all think of the 7 Parelli games?

Personally I don't like Parelli that much, but I think the games are great. I find they are good to teach kids groundwork. 

I would say more, but I'm at a bit of a brain lock right now...

So what are your thoughts on the 7 games?


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## Thunderspark

I really don't like parelli that much either.....I do follow Clinton Anderson and was a member for about 5yrs. of his club.


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## justicehorse

The games themselves, if done correctly, are wonderful for putting a solid ground foundation on a horse.


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## Beling

I agree with you!


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## tinyliny

you will find that many oldtimers here have had this discussion regarding Parelli many times, so be prepared if they sound jaded about the whole thing. I would be more interested in hearing what YOU, the OP , think about the 7 games and Parelli. If you say you dislike, then why? think about what is bothering you and word it out.

Those of us who have hashed and rehashed this, can we please limit our already fixed views and let the newcomers have their time here. IT's new to them and I am very interested in hearing what they have to say.

I am not saying don't post here if you have already had this discussion, but don't try to cut them off with the "we have already done this one" argument.


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## Thunderspark

I wasn't saying I didn't think it would work.....I just didn't like how it was done, we had the parelli DVDs and we found them hard to figure out......LOL I guess I am an old timer


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## equiniphile

I think they're okay.....to a certain extent. A lot of it seems like common sense to me. Most of the Parelli horses I see have been 7-gamed to death, and at that point, the games aren't doing anything positive for them anymore.

The 7 games aren't harmful if you do them very minimally and don't let the horse get bored of the constant repitition.


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## LikeaTB

tinyliny said:


> you will find that many oldtimers here have had this discussion regarding Parelli many times, so be prepared if they sound jaded about the whole thing. I would be more interested in hearing what YOU, the OP , think about the 7 games and Parelli. If you say you dislike, then why? think about what is bothering you and word it out.
> 
> Those of us who have hashed and rehashed this, can we please limit our already fixed views and let the newcomers have their time here. IT's new to them and I am very interested in hearing what they have to say.
> 
> I am not saying don't post here if you have already had this discussion, but don't try to cut them off with the "we have already done this one" argument.


About Parelli, the main reason I don't like him that much is what I've heard about him. I know, not a good reason, but multiple people have said that people who strictly use his training program have disrespectful and mean horses. Any anyways, I prefer to use a blend of methods and take a bit from everyone to 'tailor' to a horse's needs.

The reason I like the games so much is because they're really good for teaching kids the basics of groundwork. No, they're not good to use all the time, but if you're a newcomer to groundwork, they can teach you some good methods and teach you how to do some basic groundwork. With the kids in summer camps, we usually just do the first 3 or 4 (friendly, porcupine, driving, yoyo) and save the more advanced games for the advanced camp (squeeze, circling, sideways).


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## Shropshirerosie

I've seen the pro and anti Parelli arguments many many times, but actually I don't have any idea what the 7 games consist of - anyone care to enlighten me (with the shortened version)?


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## tinyliny

she listed them in the post above you, though I don't know what each and every one is.

I have some friends who do Parelli. One is pretty good, andthe other is very good. Done correctly, they are a nice foundation to learning how to teach ground manners and more. However, I think one of the reasons that so many people have a negative experience with horses trained by Parelli people is that so many people dont' do them correctly. 

The other thing is that students can get so caught up in what THEY do, in as far as how they do each game and whether or not they will go up a level and such, that they lose sight of the horse itself, and why they do what they do and how to actually use these skills in real life. it gets to be a bit of the "can't see the forest for the trees" type of situation.


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## lilruffian

Thunderspark said:


> I wasn't saying I didn't think it would work.....I just didn't like how it was done, we had the parelli DVDs and we found them hard to figure out......LOL I guess I am an old timer


 Which DVDs did you have? There are MANY and some are better/easier to follow than others.
I _personally_ really like their system of teaching better than many others, though i have learnt alot from several NH trainers as well.


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## Thunderspark

lilruffian said:


> Which DVDs did you have? There are MANY and some are better/easier to follow than others.
> I _personally_ really like their system of teaching better than many others, though i have learnt alot from several NH trainers as well.


I sold some of the DVDs, I have been using Clinton Anderson for about 6yrs. now, I like his because he does explain very well how to do things with different type of horses.


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## cedarane

I really like the Parelli games, so far. I am a new horse owner and have never worked with a horse on the ground before. They are easy to follow, easy to use, and I think they work well. The games are helping me establish a good relationship with my horse and understand a lot of the why behind what he is doing.


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## 2muchcoffeeman

Here's a Horse Channel overview of the seven games:



> 1. Friendly Game
> The Friendly Game is the first of the Seven Games because nothing beats a good first impression. When you want to meet someone, how would you first approach him? I like to think about introducing myself to a horse as positively as I would to another person.
> Read more >>
> 
> 2. Porcupine Game
> Horses naturally push into steady pressure, moving against it or barging through it. It’s part of their programming for survival. In order to develop a partnership with your horse, you need to help him overcome his fearful, defensive reactions to pressure and learn how to yield and move away from it. I teach this through the Porcupine Game, Game #2 of the Seven Games.
> Read more >>
> 
> 3. Driving Game
> The Driving Game is the third of the Seven Games. It teaches your horse to yield from a “suggestion” with no physical touching involved.
> Read more >>
> 
> 4. Yo-Yo Game
> Have you ever wished that your horse had more suspension, stopped easily with a light cue, could do a sliding stop, moved straighter, or could back up quickly? The Yo-Yo Game is the key to developing all these things in your horse, and more.
> Read more >>
> 
> 5. Circling Game
> The Circling Game helps your horse understand that it is his job to maintain gait, maintain direction, watch where he is going, and all the while stay tuned into you as his center of attention.
> Read more >>
> 
> 6. Sideways Game
> In the Sideways Game, you will learn how to straighten your horse and have him yield laterally with softness and respect.
> Read more >>
> 
> 7. Squeeze Game
> Horses, by nature, are claustrophobic. They are instinctively afraid of small or tight spaces because these areas usually spell disaster for prey animals. The Squeeze Game teaches your horse to become calmer, smarter and braver, and to squeeze through narrow spots without concern.
> Read more >>


Sometimes I think the best thing about the seven games is that you can find out how to do them without paying the Parellis a couple of hundred bucks for the knowledge. :lol:

They definitely have their uses.


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## KountryPrincess

I'm new on the forum, not new to horses, have owned and ridden for over 30 years. My opinion of the 7 games is that they are basic excercises that allow one to gain respect and work on a relationship with their horse. They are carefully and cleverly marketed, in particular, to appeal to those having issues with their horses training. They are often overdone.

A friend of mine went to a Parelli clinic and heard Pat himself ranting about how people get "stuck" doing the 7 games and never move on. Why some people get stuck, I'm not sure. My suspicion is that they have probs with their horse that the 7 games failed to completely "fix" so they just keep doing them for lack of any other ideas. 

If you look at the 7 games, they are nothing new in horse training, just have some marketable names and good advertizing. Genius from a business perspective :lol:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I like to use the 7 Games with any new horse I buy and to teach foals the basics of ground work. They're easy to do, easy to understand and it's all laid out in a logical progression. 

With a new horse, you can find holes in training real quickly by running through the games once or twice, and with foals you lay good foundation for later work. With foals I tend to stick to Friendly, Porcupine, Driving, YoYo and I introduce the Squeeze game with wash rack or stocks, until they're yearlings. If I have a prodigy, I might go on but I've found most foals can't really grasp the Circling and Sideways games right at first. They seem to need a little maturity before we get there.


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## Thunderspark

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I like to use the 7 Games with any new horse I buy and to teach foals the basics of ground work. They're easy to do, easy to understand and it's all laid out in a logical progression.
> 
> With a new horse, you can find holes in training real quickly by running through the games once or twice, and with foals you lay good foundation for later work. With foals I tend to stick to Friendly, Porcupine, Driving, YoYo and I introduce the Squeeze game with wash rack or stocks, until they're yearlings. If I have a prodigy, I might go on but I've found most foals can't really grasp the Circling and Sideways games right at first. They seem to need a little maturity before we get there.


My Street who is now 3 learnt the lungeing around me when he was a few weeks old, I would only send him once or twice around only......he knew how to yeild his hindquarters then too, back.....but being with him all day when he was young really helped because I could go out a few times through the day and play with him and it didn't take long for him to pick it up. As for the squeeze game that Parelli has......I didn't have to do that with him LOL he would squeeze into every tight spot he could find in the yard......I would have to go out and move him along, he wasn't stuck but I didn't want him in behind my BBQ between the house LOL


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## DancingArabian

I think there's a definite disconnect between Parelli lessons and some followers. I've read the stuff and while the presentation at times is a little patronizing to me, I do like it. Some of the videos are ok too. I've given a few of the games a to with my horse but he does better with a more CA style of approach and that's the methods I primarily use on him. I say there's a disconnect because some of the most poorly behaved horses I've ever met we're strictly Parelli trained, so while the method seems decent it doesn't look like it works for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fargosgirl

It should be mentioned that while the 7 games are originally taught as ground work they can be "played" while riding. The games teach principles that apply to all aspects of your horse handling. I'll try putting the 7 games into more traditional terms, maybe the value of the games will become apparent, and many of you will see that you already do these things, without the silly names.

*Friendly game* = Desensitizing and bonding; get your horse's trust
*Porcupine game* = Teach your horse to yield from steady pressure(reins, legs, lead, ect.) 
*Driving game* = Teach your horse to yield from rhythmic pressure(riding crop, asking them to move out of your space)

The first three are the basic "core" games your horse must be comfortable with to do just about anything else.

*Yo-yo game* = Teaching impulsion; Having your horse to move forward and backward equally well, including speeding up and slowing down within a gait. This "game" is vital to good riding.
*Circling game* = Similar to lounging; Also very useful in teaching impulsion and helping your horse learn to rate himself without having to be micro managed.
*Sideways gam*e = Lateral movement; Leg yields, shoulders in, haunches in, side passing, and asking your horse to step over in a wash rack or up to a mounting block all fall in this category of " Sideways game"
*Squeeze game* = Desensitizing while your horse is moving between or over obstacles; Into trailers, over jumps, streams, past a plastic bag beside the road, through that inexplicably scary place in the trail are all "Squeeze Games" 

The only reason they are called "Games" is to remind us that spending time with our horses should be FUN rather than work and that you should always keep your sense of humor with your horse so you don't get harsh or frustrated. After all, it's just a game!:wink:


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## countrylove

I have always been interested in the Parelli games but refused to pay the price. And I am glad that I didn't waste my money. The activities in the 7 games are the same things I have been doing for years. Its common horsemanship IMO.


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## iRide Ponies

I found them really useful for teaching my mare basic *tricks* when I got her her groundwork pretty much sucked, I got her leading nice and backing up nice, then I tried the parelli seven games with her and using them, with a mixture of other things thrown in too, has really helped my mare improve her basic manners.


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## Back2Horseback

Subbing to come back when I have more time and read the details of all 7 games (I just got called away when I got to the best part of the thread!--Darned work!:wink


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## Val1991

tinyliny said:


> she listed them in the post above you, though I don't know what each and every one is.
> 
> I have some friends who do Parelli. One is pretty good, andthe other is very good. Done correctly, they are a nice foundation to learning how to teach ground manners and more. However, I think one of the reasons that so many people have a negative experience with horses trained by Parelli people is that so many people dont' do them correctly.
> 
> The other thing is that students can get so caught up in what THEY do, in as far as how they do each game and whether or not they will go up a level and such, that they lose sight of the horse itself, and why they do what they do and how to actually use these skills in real life. it gets to be a bit of the "can't see the forest for the trees" type of situation.


Sooooo incredibly true. That is why Parelli himself says that true horsemanship is a large part imagination. The seven games are incredible tools, but to simply teach them to a horse does not make a horse a model citizen. The games themselves help you establish a communication with your horse so that when the need arises, you have a simple way of portraying to your horse what you want/need him to do. 

But most people don't use them outside of their daily groundwork routine. Then the horse gets bored and sour and switches to auto-pilot and you are no longer engaging the thinking side of their brain which is suppost to be the whole idea. I'm more of a clinton fan myself. But I do highly respect Parelli insight on "horsenality" as it has helped me to gear my lessons much more effectively to the individual horses I have worked with, and taught me how to build a more tender communication and relationship with them, whereas clinton can at times be a bit brash.

Clinton however is super easy to understand, a whole lot cheaper, and offers many more ideas and insight on how to use the things you are teaching your horse. Clinton also teaches a more 100/0% leadership role between human/horse whereas Parelli tends to lean more towards a 51/49% in an attempt to be pals with the horse, which is why I believe alot of people see mean or disrespectful horses as a trend in Parelli followers. I even saw Linda's horse kick and make contact with one of her apprentices while doing groundwork on TV. Thankfully the girl was okay, and I apprecriate their honesty by allowing that incident to air, but Clinton's Mindy wouldn't be caught dead doing that! 

I do however tend to move at a slightly slower pace when teaching clinton's methods. I wish that the bond between horse and owner was more emphasised. I want my horse to want to be with me, and not think that every time I show up it means he has to work his rear end off. But not at the expense of respect, and therefore safety. Clinton always has enormous emphasis on safety. 

I think that when Parelli principles collide with clinton's, you can get a very nice balance.


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## Pegasus1

I'm new to this forum, but have a strong Parelli background. I think there is a misunderstanding about the 7 games going on here. They are not the 7 games, they are 7 classes of games. Everything we do with a horse, even just standing next to them, falls into one of those classes. It took me a while to work this out, and it did not come from the level 1 or 2 pack but from learning from Parelli professionals.
To clarify:
Friendly game is being played anytime we are doing something too or around the horse where we expect no reaction from them. Swinging a rope lariat on there back while cantering towards a steer is Friendly game !

Porcupine Game is the game of steady pressure. This is pressure on any part of the horse that is not rhythmical. Thus applying pressure with the inside leg to ask the horse to bend around you is porcupine game. If they push back into that leg they are playing porcupine game on you. Often horses are playing and winning these games and we don't even know a game is being played . Picking out hooves is a combination of Porcupine and Friendly game. Porcupine as you apply steady pressure to ask the hoof to be lifted, and friendly as you ask them to standstill and not move as you pick out the hoof. Dropping a hoof when finished just gave them a porcupine win by the way. I always place the toe of the hoof back on the ground and ask for relaxation before releasing. If you don't think the horse is playing porcupine with you in this situation then try placing the hoof next time you do the picking out and see what they do. If you can't control the placement of the hoof when it is in your hand, doing it with leg aids when riding is going to be a whole lot harder

Driving game is the game of rhythmical pressure. This is most often played on the ground with a stick and string, but can also be played when riding. For example when riding brideless if the horse does not respond to porcupine on the leg to turn then a stick and flag could add a little rhythmical pressure to the side of the nose to ask it to bend around. It should be able to be used to ask any part of the horse to move away from the rhythmic pressure applied whilst you are at a distance to the horse. Useful when circling on a 22 or 45 foot rope and then you ask for a step or two of sideways, or a hind quarter yield. It also allows the horse to be moved around without playing porcupine on the halter, too much of which threatens to make them dead to the halter. For example if the horses head goes down to eat when I am leading it rather than pulling hard on the halter I may use driving game on the hind quarters to move the hind feet and up pops the head.

YoYo game is not just about wriggling ropes to make your horse backup (which is driving game by the way). It is to do with getting energy to go forwards or backwards through your horse. Thus all transitions are YoYo game with an emphasis on straightness. Canter to trot to walk to halt to backup are all backwards YoYo, and the opposite is obviously forwards YoYo. The imagery is to help us to remember that like a YoYo downwards transitions should be balanced in terms of effort with upwards transitions.

Circling game is to help our horses learn their responsibilites of 1) Act like a partner, not a prey animal, 2) Maintain gait, 3)Maintain direction, 4) Look where you are going. To help in this the idea is to set your horse on a circle and then return to neutral (the feel of which you taught him in the Friendly game). The horse is then expected to maintain the gait and direction whilst you remain neutral in the middle applying no cues to keep going. If they break a responsibility then gently as possible, but as firmly as necessary, correct them, then back to neutral. This translates to the same responsibilities being upheld when riding. This means that once a direction around the rail of the school is set (for example), then with no further cues from the rider it should be maintained. The advantage to this concept is that when a cue arrives from the rider to change the activity is is much clearer to the horse that such a cue has been given. Nothing to pressure is better than a continual nagging to maintain gait to a different nagging to half pass.

Sideways game. This uses all the above games to get your horse to move away, or towards you sideways. It can be done using porcupine to simulate steady pressure of the leg for riding, or driving to allow for easy ground manoeuvres. Sideways towards is great for asking you horse to side pass into you as you sit on a fence ready to mount . Once the basic game is learned it can then be used with the circling game online (or liberty) to ask your horse to track on 2, 3 or 4 tracks. This is a great exercise for making the horse more gymnastic leading to flying lead changes. Of course it will also help your horse with straightness. If they travel naturally off line then to them straight will feel like sideways. If we can get it to the point where we can ask for any degree of sideways we wish then we can ask for that little bit that brings them straight. Do this for long enough and it becomes their natural way of going.

Squeeze game. This is a game to modify their flight distance, and thus make them braver. It starts by asking them to pass between you and a wall (for example) then turn and face the "squeeze". This turn and face takes them quickly from a Right brain instinctual mind set to a Left brain thinking mindset. This mimics running from a lion instinctually for say 1/4 mile then turning and facing the threat to re-evaluate it. What we are doing is reducing that distance from 1/4 mile to a few paces. They then find benefit in trying to stay left brained (thinking) and put effort into it. Now lets think of other squeezes. Going through a gate/door. Entering a trailer which squeezes on all 4 sides. Mounting the horse which squeezes from above. Jumping the horse which squeezes by the jump pole from underneath and the rider on top (ever seen a horse that jumps 4 feet over a two foot jump, or goes in at trot and come out at canter. They are scared of this under the belly squeeze).

Sorry this is such a long post, but it is an important concept I am trying to get across. I hear too often that the 7 games have made a horse difficult or bored. This is almost certainly because they have only played the basic form and not progressed to use the 7 games as a tool kit to be utilised in many situations (in fact nearly all situations !).
They are also a very useful shorthand for discussing issues. My instructor only has to say to me "your horse is playing porcupine with you" and I can quickly understand what they mean and occasionally do the right thing to win the game 

I'll finish here as to cover all aspects of this subject would actually mean writing out the entire Parelli program as the ideas here underpin much that is taught.


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## Back2Horseback

Welcome to HF, Pegasus1!

Thank you for the extremely thorough and well-written explanation regarding the theory behind the 7 games. You just saved me a ton of research to decide if I like the overall concept or don't.

From what you have described, I think they seem sound and useful and definitely like something I would want to do with any future horse I own, in order to accomplish the stated goals...I believe I'd mix them in with others' concepts as a means to create a positive relationship...very well-done and it's a seemingly simplistic teaching concept/ theory when broken down as you've done. ;0)

Thanks again; and again, welcome to HF! :0)

B2H ;0)


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## tinyliny

That's the best explanation of the P games I've ever seen. I still find it too hard to "speak" Parelli. Trying to remember which game is which and which horsenalit is which;;; way too much work required and distracts me from what I am actually DOING with the horse.

However, again, that explanation was excellent. better than Pat himself.


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## Pegasus1

I'm glad the explanation was helpful. It took a while to write, but then I'm only sitting in a hotel room feeling bored :-|.
I agree that it is helpful to look at other programs as well, but what I have found is that they are basically all teaching the same stuff but with different emphasis. 
I personally find that Parelli has the most information available and takes you by baby steps. But then once I have learned from there I then find that other clinicians material makes more sense. 
For example I remember watching a Chris Cox program on Softness and being appalled by the way he was handling some horses, but in the back of my mind I knew he was one of the greats. 1 year later and I had grown in the knowledge of the Parelli program that I found the same episode enlightening and not at all shocking. In fact it helped shed some light on what I was watching one of my teachers, James Roberts (one of Pats' proteges), do with my own youngster when she went to him to be started.
If you want to see how my own knowledge has grown through the program then have a look at my blog which charts my progress from complete newcomer to horses to the present day. Filly and Billy . You my find the links to some crib sheets of the program on the right of the blog page useful as well.


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## Chevaux

Subbing too -- I've got to come back to this later.


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## anniegirl

The whole concept has really taught me to slow down and learn how to properly communicate with my horses. I have more confidence when working with and around them and can now read their behaviour ....knowing what happens before what happens happens!!! 
I took in a rescue about a year and a half ago, and when we first brought him home, he would barely let you pet him...now he plays with the big scary green ball and lets me put a bright coloured noisy plastic shopping bag over his head!! learning the different horsenalities makes all the difference in how you play...I think for a while I was so obsessed with Parelli my family was close to disowning me...lol...until one night my husband was watching me and my RBI tb at liberty...he was shocked at how well he was responding to my communication....


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## Back2Horseback

Pegasus1 said:


> I'm glad the explanation was helpful. It took a while to write, but then I'm only sitting in a hotel room feeling bored :-|.
> I agree that it is helpful to look at other programs as well, but what I have found is that they are basically all teaching the same stuff but with different emphasis.
> I personally find that Parelli has the most information available and takes you by baby steps. But then once I have learned from there I then find that other clinicians material makes more sense.
> For example I remember watching a Chris Cox program on Softness and being appalled by the way he was handling some horses, but in the back of my mind I knew he was one of the greats. 1 year later and I had grown in the knowledge of the Parelli program that I found the same episode enlightening and not at all shocking. In fact it helped shed some light on what I was watching one of my teachers, James Roberts (one of Pats' proteges), do with my own youngster when she went to him to be started.
> If you want to see how my own knowledge has grown through the program then have a look at my blog which charts my progress from complete newcomer to horses to the present day. Filly and Billy . You my find the links to some crib sheets of the program on the right of the blog page useful as well.


If your posts here are ANY indication of your EXEMPLARY ability to turn words into usable philosophy (what ALL WRITING should strive for IMO, but unfortunately much too rarely GETS TO these days, I will absolutely follow your blog! I imagine I'll enjoy it quite a lot!!

Hoping to see more of ya here on HF! 

Best to you! B2H


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## tinyliny

one thing I have noticed is that most of the horses I see doing Parelli are often resistant to going forward. they suck back and often have their ears back in an irritated expression when asked to move out and go!


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## Thunderspark

Val1991 said:


> Sooooo incredibly true. That is why Parelli himself says that true horsemanship is a large part imagination. The seven games are incredible tools, but to simply teach them to a horse does not make a horse a model citizen. The games themselves help you establish a communication with your horse so that when the need arises, you have a simple way of portraying to your horse what you want/need him to do.
> 
> But most people don't use them outside of their daily groundwork routine. Then the horse gets bored and sour and switches to auto-pilot and you are no longer engaging the thinking side of their brain which is suppost to be the whole idea. I'm more of a clinton fan myself. But I do highly respect Parelli insight on "horsenality" as it has helped me to gear my lessons much more effectively to the individual horses I have worked with, and taught me how to build a more tender communication and relationship with them, whereas clinton can at times be a bit brash.
> 
> Clinton however is super easy to understand, a whole lot cheaper, and offers many more ideas and insight on how to use the things you are teaching your horse. Clinton also teaches a more 100/0% leadership role between human/horse whereas Parelli tends to lean more towards a 51/49% in an attempt to be pals with the horse, which is why I believe alot of people see mean or disrespectful horses as a trend in Parelli followers. I even saw Linda's horse kick and make contact with one of her apprentices while doing groundwork on TV. Thankfully the girl was okay, and I apprecriate their honesty by allowing that incident to air, but Clinton's Mindy wouldn't be caught dead doing that!
> 
> I do however tend to move at a slightly slower pace when teaching clinton's methods. I wish that the bond between horse and owner was more emphasised. I want my horse to want to be with me, and not think that every time I show up it means he has to work his rear end off. But not at the expense of respect, and therefore safety. Clinton always has enormous emphasis on safety.
> 
> I think that when Parelli principles collide with clinton's, you can get a very nice balance.


Why not combine both Parelli and Clinton's methods? I do follow Clinton's methods because I want a respectful horse but I also play with my horses just to enjoy them and have fun. I don't necessarily follow the seven games but there are lots of ways you can play with your horse other than the games.


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## Pegasus1

tinyliny said:


> one thing I have noticed is that most of the horses I see doing Parelli are often resistant to going forward. they suck back and often have their ears back in an irritated expression when asked to move out and go!


I agree with this statement to an extent. What I have come to realise is that many many Parelli students have come to Parelli as they have "issues" with their horses and have given up on more traditional methods. Which is also possibly a reason that many think Parelli trained horses have problems. They do, that's often why they are in Parelli  . It was certainly the case for my wife who originally started the Parelli program as her horse bucked for the first few strides of canter, every time. Traditional trainers she hired mostly said hit him when he bucks. She did not want that sort of relationship with her horse, hence after a long search, Parelli. We do not have any problems with him now of that sort, and very few overall.
Back to the subject. I think Parelli recognises this as the situation and hence in the early days of training a new student a lot of time is spent getting them safe, forwards can come later. The snag is that many then don't progress rapidly enough through the program and so they get stuck in the safety zone of it which promotes horses that don't go forwards so well. Lots of hind quarter disengagement is the culprit.
You have to search for the true nature of the Parelli program a bit, and I was lucky enough to wind up having lessons from James Roberts. As a protégée of Pat's he uses Parelli for his business of colt starting, thus if you watch him you see the Parelli method in its' raw form as done by a professional. His major emphasis is forwards. Forwards in the mind of the horse, not neccessarily the body. Remember the YoYo game says Go = Woa. I have seen him and his staff do many first rides on young colts. The speed of progress is astonishing. Day 1 is accept the human plus some basic yields. Accept a human involves sitting on them the first time. Day 2 is accept the saddle and first ride ! Day 3 is second ride with some more direction from the rider, Day 4 is first hack out. All of this is to promote forwards and more importantly forward thinking. 
He is also looking for anything that inhibits forwards. For example he found with Filly (that IS the name of my horse  ) that just the heavy clasp of the lead rope on the halter was discouraging forwards, so second ride was in a rope hackamore which does not have the heavy clasp dangling in front of the drive line. Whilst I was there I even saw either the first or second ride on a young colt being done brideless as even the rope halter itself was discouraging forwards in motion and thought.
His mantra is that he doesn't care what horsenality the horse starts with, it must be put back in it's stable confident and forward thinking. He'll adjust to fit each inherent horsenality to get them to that happy place.
This is a very long way of saying that actually done properly Parelli most definitely promotes forward thinking in horse, but too many get stuck in early stages of the program where that is not emphasised so much.
If I was to recommend any DVDs to newcomers to the program I would probably recommend the Colt Starting Series above all others. This shows Pat starting a young colt in near real time with explanation for those who don't speak "Parelli". It shows the level 1 and level 2 program being played with level 8 experience and knowledge. That will show the true nature of the program far better than the levels packs and is the next best thing to seeing one of the protégées like James work.


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## justicehorse

Very interesting, Pegasus. I used to be a die-hard parelli student a decade ago. I too had the privilege of working with the best ... David Lichman (who helped gentle my horse and get me started in the very beginning) and Bruce Logan (who helped me colt start my youngsters and otherwise advance me).

What my mentors emphasized the most was having a purpose and moving forward... which in my case was to ride out in the big open space, i.e., trails, foxhunt, backcountry horse camping, etc. In the beginning Lichman made it a goal to get me out of Level 1 ground within 30 days (which included trailer loading) and riding within 90 days (which included cantering). He then told me that while Level 1 is 80% ground and 20% riding, you reverse those numbers in Level 2. He and Bruce felt it was important to spend most (if not all) of my time riding trails. Bruce made clear that one can pass all the original levels without ever stepping foot inside an arena. And as I had very young horses, it was critical their mental development. Things get a lot more interesting for horses if they feel like they are going somewhere and there is a purpose.

Too often you ask parelli students what they do with their horses and their response is simply "I do parelli", not foxhunting, reining, cutting, competitive trail, enduro, etc. This is often where people get stuck. Unfortunately, when parelli revamped his program to turn age-old natural horsemanship techniques into having its own language and tasks, it lost the original ... 'principles, purpose and time are the tools of teaching' concept on a lot of beginners.

When people ask me for an intro to parelli, I suggest they get the National Geographic America's Lost Mustangs video, which to me shows parelli (and his best instructors) at his true finest, and the western horseman book.


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## Pegasus1

I must try and get a copy of the original levels packs. I've heard they contain a lot of info not in the new ones.
I agree with folks getting stuck. Pat himself says you should be out of level 1 in a month at the most, yet you see loads of folks still in level 1 after years. Personally I have only bothered to take a single levels audition and got online 2++ pre level 3. Since I started with the program I have been working with two young tbs which were not mine and I was not allowed to ride them. (Well I did ride one and broke my hip . My fault, not the horses.) They were thus not ideal levels candidates at the time.
I now own one of them, Filly, and so can crack on with my levels, but my aim is to get to level 4 as soon as possible then continue to train her to work as my saddle horse for backing colts from (hope I'm good enough by then) and some western classes. 
James fully backs this plan. His emphasis is on getting out of level 4 asap. Maximum 1 year ( I wish !! ). Level 4 is just the foundation, then you choose a trainer (Parelli or not) to specialise in your chosen activity.
Even Pat emphasises that Parelli is primarily a foundation program and having graduated L4 you should take that knowledge to your speciality. Until recently they did not even have much information on riding with a collection as that is a post foundation subject. 
I think a lot of anti-Parelli folks miss this point. They criticise it for not being something it isn't even trying to be, which is a little unfair.


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## justicehorse

If you do not have the book, get that. It is $20 and can be purchased easily online.


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## Pegasus1

justicehorse said:


> If you do not have the book, get that. It is $20 and can be purchased easily online.


I do have the book. I remember trying to read it around 2 years ago, and did not like it at all. Then around 3 months ago I got it off the book shelf and tried again. I found it absorbing and very interesting. 
I guess on my first attempt my horsemanship was not good enough to really understand what Pat was trying to say, so thought it out of date and pointless. Second attempt and I had the pre-knowledge necessary to get stuff out that was of relevance to me. I guess in years to come it will mean more and more.
This seems to be a common theme with the teaching materials, the DVDs in particular. When I first started watching them I found them interesting and informative, but not overly so. Then I got to know James. He keeps saying "everything you need to know is in the level 1 to 4 packs, watch them all even if you are only at level 1". I would challenge this "everything I need to know" over some information James had just given me by saying "that's not in the levels James". "Watch them again!" Always the topic has been covered, often as part of a story which I had glossed over in my mind and often as an action, like a particular rein movement, I had missed. The DVDs are like an onion where you can keep peeling back layers of meaning as you progress. The snag is it takes time to keep watching them over and over again :-(


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## justicehorse

If you think that book is tough reading, try True Horsemanship Through Feel by the original master, Bill Dorrance. :wink:


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## Pegasus1

tinyliny said:


> Trying to remember which game is which and which horsenalit is which;;; way too much work required and distracts me from what I am actually DOING with the horse.


I fell into this trap a bit until James Roberts said the memorable phrase "Tim, do your thinking at night and your feeling during the day" 
He was cautioning me about over analysing when I was playing with a horse. Analysis should be done away from the horse and when with the horse that knowledge is in the back of my mind informing the feel.
I now just sort of "let go" when playing and somehow my body seems to know what to do most of the time. It's a "feeling" that I seek, not an analysis. 
I think the reason this really works well is that horses live in the moment and any human thought and analysis is too long for the subsequent action to be effective. This does mean that if things are not going well I stop the session and either take a quiet moment to think then resume, or put the horse away and play another day.


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## anniegirl

I heard the most ridiculous statement at a tack sale today...I was purchasing a rope halter and lead when a complete stranger felt the need to tell me that they didnt do parelli...that it was stupid and every horse they heard of that was involved with natural horsemanship was mean and rude...then they continued to tell me how they just hop on and go...and if the horse is in a bad mood that day well then too bad for the horse.....I was speachless...lol


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## tinyliny

I realize that most of what Parelli is critiszed for has more to do with his followers than with his actual teachings. But , the sheer fact that he uses "Parelli-speak" makes him seem as if he is trying to promote something old as something HE invented. And, I think , the very reason that people get caught up in the steps themselves , without paying attention to what they are actually doing for the horse . Is the horse getting to be a better horse for waht you want to do? How is the horse backing up? With what kind of mental attitude? 
Doesn't matter, just that he go off the wiggle of the finger. They are often blind to the fact that , yes, the horse is backing off the wilggled finger, but he is bored out of his gourd and has no "life" in his actions.

your own horse , in your audition video, had that same resentful look about her face when you asked her to move, and she was crowding you quite a lot. But you did not have time to address that because you had to complete this and then that step, in order , regardless of the real connection and willingness of how your horse did them. It's a bit of the "cant see the forest for the trees". That's what I see too much and don't like about Parelli.

I NEVER see Pat's horses behve that way, I will admit.


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## Pegasus1

tinyliny said:


> But , the sheer fact that he uses "Parelli-speak" makes him seem as if he is trying to promote something old as something HE invented.


Not true. He is always reffering back to the old masters and his mentors. One of his favourite phrases is "this is all so old its' new again"
As for my horse being resentful, that was true. In fact it was mostly the expression that the feedback form concentrated on, and something I have been hard to work on since. Thus it is clearly something Parelli address very strongly. 
I might also add that she was not my horse then and what I was allowed to do with her was very limited. 
Read my whole blog about her and you will see the circumstances I had to deal with. She was a hand reared horse not allowed to go out of the barn for 6 months before I even got to start with her. The first few sessions were mostly about me not getting hurt. You need to look at the whole picture of the horse and human background before you make sweeping statements to back up your case, or risk misrepresenting the truth. 
What I look for more than anything else now, before I release the pressure (driving or porcupine), is the expression, not the action. Has she "let loose" to the idea.
I am not saying the Parelli is better than other clinicians, but for me it has a greater wealth of instructional material available, more instructors teaching a consistent program (I'm in the UK) and a large community to add support.
I do look to other clinicians material, like Mark Rashid whose clinic I have attended and loved. Even took up Aikido as a result which actually has helped make me be stronger but softer.


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## justicehorse

Tiny Liny, I'm with you on the parelli speak. In the old days, Pat's target audience was experienced horseman and he referred to the friendly game as gentling, porcupine game as fingertip yielding, etc. But when he shifted his target market to include people with little to no horse experience, he created his first educational package and began inventing terms of art to explain his concepts and techniques. But it at least had a lot of substance and the original levels tests required genuine well-rounded skills with practical real life challenging tasks. Then he hired a masterful corporate/marketing consultant with zero horse experience to test his program, which resulted in the big 2004/2005 revamping of his entire program and educational materials, and most of the substance for real life tasks were removed. Now it is about paid club memberships, parelli branded products, and churning out so many dvds with more and more inventive ways to develop the parelli language, it makes your head spin. 

With that said, I am a proud original L2 graduate and still keep my blue string attached to my saddle. I also still refer (after 11 years) to the book/original pocket guides and faithfully use the skills I have learned from parelli with my horses, even though I no longer consider myself part of the parelli program.


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## Pegasus1

You talk about masses of Parelli speak, but really there are only the 7 games that are specific. Looking at the web page I made up incorporating the other fundamentals of Parelli http://plan2plan.vacau.com/Parelli Framework.html there are very few words that are not in common usage by other clinicians. 
The only major difference is the horsenalities, which as they developed them as a concept I guess there were really no ready to use phrases available. Now I would agree that many folks overuse the horsenality concept, often as an excuse for not being able to achieve a specific goal with their horse. But as a concept they do make reading a horse a whole load easier for newcomers and having read the horse give good suggestions as to how to play with them. 
I am however a firm believer in the necessity of reading the horse from second to second to see what frame of mind they are in, not labelling a horse for eternity as those who buy horsenality tee-shirts seem to like to do. Many even introduce themselves as "I am Jo and I have a LBI" or put the horsenality of the horse in their forum signatures. That was most certainly not the intention of the concept, and I understand that even Pat thinks things have gone too far with this idea.
Other than that could you show me in which particular areas there is Parelli speak ? I don't think 7 games and 4 horsenalities are too onerous a job to learn in order to communicate more effectively and in "shorthand".


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## justicehorse

Let's see.... just off the top of my head... there are horse zones 1-5 and the delicate zone, the catching game, pushing passenger exercise, the trotting task, the 9 step back up, the undemanding time exercise...


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## Pegasus1

Catching game = Monty Roberts Join up. So Monty has his own "language" ?

Zone 1 = bit in front of halter
Zone 2 = from poll to a line from break of whithers to chest
A rather more succinct way of describing parts of the horse I would suggest.

9 step backup is not exactly complicated. It just points out that there are 9 discrete steps to get a backup from your horse. Not a new language, just a description of what to do. Or would you rather each step was described long hand each time it was done.
I don't think undemanding time is "new" language and I didn't need an explanation the first time I heard it to understand it. How would you describe hanging out with your horse in as few words as possible? 
The trotting task ??? Never heard of it. But at a guess, without knowing, I would say it involves trotting ?


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## tinyliny

Pegasus1 said:


> Catching game = Monty Roberts Join up. So Monty has his own "language" ?
> 
> Zone 1 = bit in front of halter
> Zone 2 = from poll to a line from break of whithers to chest
> A rather more succinct way of describing parts of the horse I would suggest.
> 
> 9 step backup is not exactly complicated. It just points out that there are 9 discrete steps to get a backup from your horse. Not a new language, just a description of what to do. Or would you rather each step was described long hand each time it was done.
> I don't think undemanding time is "new" language and I didn't need an explanation the first time I heard it to understand it. How would you describe hanging out with your horse in as few words as possible?
> The trotting task ??? Never heard of it. But at a guess, without knowing, I would say it involves trotting ?


 
NO language is onerous to learn if you have the desire to learn it. I speak English and Spanish and Japanese and a wee bit of French. Now that I am older, it's a lot harder to learn new languages, so maybe that's part of my resistance.

as for describing backing up as having 9 steps (not horse footfall, he means stages), that makes me focus on getting the NINE, not eight or two or six, but NINE, steps IN ORDER. While focussing there, I cannot focus on the horse and how it is or isn't paying attention to me. Working with horses is a feedback loop. If I am mentally thinking about steps and whether or not I am doing things in that order and all, my mind has left the feedback loop and is on some thing that isn't even THERE at the time, a concept . 
I need to be THERE, 100% in mind and body.

So, once I learn the 9 steps, I suppose I don't any longer have to do the mental sidetrack to get them available to me to use, but just thinking about needing to keep NINE steps in mind is overwhelming.

and dont forget, there are plenty of times you need to go straight from step 2 to step 8, maybe. if the horse really needs breaking out of it's resistance. but some folks would be dutifully plodding along through each step, because, well, because they are there.


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## Pegasus1

You are so right about the 9 steps. I rarely do all 9 steps physically any more, but it taught me to prepare my body to be in the right position to do the backup. James Roberts had a great phrase "prepare to position to make the transition". The 9 steps does that for the backup, as does the life up and squeeze for the upwards transitions.
I wish I could learn languages like you. I am married to a German and my language skills are basically limited to knowing when I am in trouble and to what depth :wink:


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## tinyliny

Well, I seem to be in the process of losing the ones I learned, as I forget everything from my friend's names to my own birthdate. Middle age is a thief.

Sorry about the loss of your mentor. How very sad and shocking.


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## Pegasus1

Thank-you for your sympathy. It has hit my wife and I hard. We are still coming to terms with it, but we are also determined that we will continue down the path he set out for us. We used to joke James did "No nonsense horsemanship". It was a very progressive and natural style. 
To bring this back to the topic of this thread, it was James who really showed me how to use the 7 games to train a horse. It was a revelation to me. He played the games so fast it could be difficult to see which was being played now. This is of course how horses interact. They don't say "lets play the circling game now", they have no knowledge of these categories. The categories were only invented to teach humans what classes of interaction between horses are common and give us baby steps to recognise and play them. Horses mix them all up together in an overall conversation. As James once remarked "if you are playing the circling game with your horse, make sure they don't think they are playing porcupine game on you and winning". 
For example if you are playing circling game with your horse and they are travelling with their body slanted with the hindquarters to the inside they could, in their minds, be playing the porcupine game on your personal bubble with their hind quarters. If you don't spot and correct this then they win that game.
James is largely responsible for the knowledge I have which allowed me to write the explanatory post earlier in this thread. I am dedicated to ensuring that the knowledge he passed on to me is never lost, hence the time I spent on that post.


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## Pegasus1

Reading back through some of these posts again I think I should emphasise that Parelli is largely a people training program in levels 1 to 3 at least. He, and James, emphasises that. They are not encouraging of anyone doing colt starting until they have reached at least level 3, but preferably higher. These shows the extent to which they think it is a people program. If it were a horse program then it would be possible to start young horses earlier on in the program.
They are strong believers of "Horses teach humans and humans teach horses" in that order (principle number 7) . The idea is to find a well schooled horse to learn with that will teach you what a well trained horse should look and feel like, then use that knowledge to train a horse.
I think it is possible (and I made this mistake ) that many folks dive into Parelli without going through the horses teach humans stage and try to use it to train a young horse from day 1. Fortunately I had good instructors to guide and help me, but left to my own devices I can see how it could go horribly wrong.


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## countrylove

Im probably jumping ahead and I will go back and read more but can someone explain the horsenalities aspect and maybe the different personalities themselves? I understand the 7 games but am curious about horsenalities. thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pegasus1

Shall we start a new thread for horsenalities ? It's a largish subject and probably worthy of its' own place for discussion. It'll make searching for folks interested in the future easier as well.


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## Back2Horseback

Well, I've never considered myself to be a Parelli person, (though I honestly AM rethinking some of ny original biases after reading this thread believe it or not), for reasons having nothing to do with his methods of passing along his self-admitted regurgitation-- "with his personal spin"-- of these original techniques--In fact, I'm quite a huge fan of his and Buck Brannaman's predecessors and their tremendous techniques/contribution to horse/PEOPLE training in general!

My only issue is having no horse of my own to utilize the program with (nor a "borrowed!/leased horse to practice with!). 

Once I AM a bonafide horse-mom, hopefully someday very soon, I'm quite sure Parelli and Buck/Torrance/Hunt will ALL PLAY A LARGE PART in starting out our mutual relationship correctly (as I see "correct", anyhow)! 

Thus, I am 100% FOR starting a HORSENALITIES THREAD/STICKY (possibly a sticky with much of what Pegasus1 has already shared about Parelli, PLUS the horsenality section for those who wish to better understand that aspect of Parelli)...I think Pegasus1 should be the initiator of such a thread...it'd be GREAT! :0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pegasus1

New thread started. Will enlarge it when I have time :-(


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## Fargosgirl

I'd like to add to the topic of using the 7 games as a diagnostic tool.
I worked for a very talented show horse trainer for 3 years, periodically her students would come saying "my horse won't....." or "my mare started doing.....at shows" and expect the trainer to "fix" their horse. I would watch as Cathy would work on the horse, she had decades of experience, and absolutely no background in NH, but what she did with her riding, a Parelli student would call "testing the 7 games". 

First she would be sure the horse was not in any pain, was confident, and not fearful. In Parelli speak, "winning the friendly game"

Then she would be sure that the horse was responding properly to rein and leg cues, which is the same as checking how well your horse "plays the porcupine and driving games".

Next she would see how well the horse would "rate itself" being sure it was maintaining gait, straightness, and direction, with equally light cues and without "babysitting". which are aspects of yo-yo and circling game.

She worked "sideways game" right away if the horse was having problems with lead changes, diagonals, or any lateral movements. Problems with "the sideways game" usually also involved a "porcupine game" problem too, meaning the horse was not responding to leg cues for some reason.

She usually only worked on "squeeze game" if the horse was having problems over jumps, or obstacles in trail work, testing to see if the horse was becoming impulsive or fearful around jumps and arena decor. 

After a lesson or two, the horse would be performing wonderfully and her students would say she was a genius, because even though they had ridden with her for years, they didn't know the how or why of what she was doing. My Parelli background helped me to realize she had a mental check list of things the horse needed to do well in order for each task to be performed properly, and she could find any disfunction in communication quickly and remedy it.

The 7 games provides that checklist to help diagnose and correct problems at the root cause. The "games" format makes it easy for anyone to learn, what it would take decades of experience to learn otherwise. It's been said before, but the only thing "new" about 7 games is the way they are labeled and presented. Some think it is a mistake to make anyone think they can train their own horse, but I disagree, I *thought* I could train my own horse long before I'd ever heard of Parelli. Because or being a Parelli student, now I have a formula that is simple enough that even I can follow it and really can train my own horse. I can also watch other people train with the eyes of understanding, because I have had it broken down into layman's terms for me, with the 7 games.


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## Pegasus1

The seven games are in the stated order for a reason as Fargosgirl states. And as she points out the idea is that if one game is going badly look back at the previous games and see if one needs fixing. Currently I am doing that with Filly. I am having trouble getting her off my inside leg when ridden, so each prepare to ride session involves hind quarter porcupine game on the ground. This is really paying dividends to the extent that I can now confidently drop the reins on her neck and ride patterns with her. Not neat ones, but recognisable. That is 6 weeks after her first ride.


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## bsms

From an outsider's viewpoint:

Games? Most folks call it working with their horse. Work implies the results are serious. Games implies it is just a game. I don't want to play with my horse. I want to RIDE my horse, and when we ride I want to be the one making decisions - because most of my horses would prefer to stand around, eat hay and hang out together.

9 steps to backup? Maybe. All I know is that I settle back, give a light tug on both reins with my pinkie, and we go back. On the ground, I slap their chest lightly and they go back.

Personalities: I understand terms like dominant, fearful, sensitive, and I understand how a fearful horse might be dominant as well. Left brain Introvert means nothing unless I first study Parelli. The lady who trained my horses uses terms like confident, fearful, etc and then discusses why she thinks the horse is XYZ and how that affects the training and my future interaction.

Cues: I understand tapping the horse with the stirrup and seeing if the horse responds. Or doing a bit cue, and seeing if the horse responds. I fail to see how "the porcupine and driving games" clarifies the situation for anyone, other than someone immersed in Parelli.

Checking for diagonals makes sense to anyone who knows what a diagonal is. Calling it a cross between "the sideways game" & the "porcupine game" clarifies nothing - except to a Parelli fan.

I can see how this helps Parelli lock people into his program, since they invest the time & money to learn his terminology, and then can't speak with folks who aren't Parelli trained (at least, not without a translator). I don't see how it helps advance the cause of horses or training in general.

If we all use standard terms, we can communicate. If we invent a new terminology, and charge folks to learn it before they can talk with us, we are 'branding' our ideas...or in this case, branding well-known ideas and marketing them as unique.

"So each prepare to ride session involves hind quarter porcupine game on the ground" vs "Practice moving the rump before mounting" - which is clearer?


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## Pegasus1

2Practice moving the rump before mounting". Did you use rhythmic pressure to achieve this or steady pressure ? Did you just ask the rump to move over or was it essential that the hind legs crossed over. It's a yield, so was it done with softness or with attitude? 
I know Parelli speak can be irritating to those who have not studied it, but, for me, it is more concise and precise.
I think most Parelli folks can easily translate Parelli speak into general language, but then this is a topic on the Parelli seven games where all the language you object to has been defined higher up the thread. If I was writing on another thread I would either refrain from using Parelli language, or explain it as I go along. And it would appear that you managed to translate it ok.
Games ? Yes games. The problem with working with the horse is not the result but, for some, the mindset. I have seen many folks go out to work with their horse and get really direct line in their thinking. 
Today I was working on those hind quarter yields again using porcupine pressure and because I tackled it with a playful, childlike, attitude I suddenly imagined a different way of getting the point over to Filly and switched tactics. It didn't cure the problem, but we made progress in the right direction where before we were stuck.
I don't think it matters whether you go and work with your horse or play with it so long as you have fun. Personally I have horses as a very satisfying and enjoyable hobby and I am proud to say that I play with my horse and hope she has fun to.
I do like one of Pats' sayings, a bit corny though it is. "If you horse can be entertainment for you, can you be entertainment for your horse ?". I actually try to keep that in mind as I play with my horse, it stops me taking my hobby too seriously


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## Pegasus1

I already posted this to the Liberty video thread, but it seems to me that this video really shows a man playing with his horse. It is also one of my favourite videos of all time, even if this is a grainy version


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## Saddlebag

The word work and play with a horse has more to do with mood, which the horse picks up on. For years I trained horses "my way" which without violence. Then a horse came to live with me that was a great teacher, which I was blind to at first. He gave the impression of being strong and independant and cantankerous and it took a long time to realize he wanted me to be his alpha. Once this realization came about our relationship began to blossom to the point it felt like we could read each others mind. When he knew how to do something, god forbid I should help him (read interfere). He's gone now and another horse, one with major fear issues arrived. Silly me, I thought I was teaching him and one day it dawned on me, I was the one being taught. We have a relationship now that I never thought possible with a horse and I know there is so much more. He will show me when I am ready.


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## Pegasus1

Saddlebag said:


> The word work and play with a horse has more to do with mood, which the horse picks up on. For years I trained horses "my way" which without violence. Then a horse came to live with me that was a great teacher, which I was blind to at first. He gave the impression of being strong and independant and cantankerous and it took a long time to realize he wanted me to be his alpha. Once this realization came about our relationship began to blossom to the point it felt like we could read each others mind. When he knew how to do something, god forbid I should help him (read interfere). He's gone now and another horse, one with major fear issues arrived. Silly me, I thought I was teaching him and one day it dawned on me, I was the one being taught. We have a relationship now that I never thought possible with a horse and I know there is so much more. He will show me when I am ready.


Parelli is a principle, rather than technique based program. James once said to me that in fact "all great horsemen are Principle based", and the more of them I watch the more I understand this idea. 
Pat has listed his most important principles. There are 8 of them. Principle #7 "Horse teach humans, and humans teach horses". The sentence is in that order on purpose. Until a horse has taught you what you need to know you cannot understand or feel what the goal you are striving for is. Once you understand that goal then you can go ahead and teach a new horse to get him to the same place as your teacher.


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> 2Practice moving the rump before mounting". Did you use rhythmic pressure to achieve this or steady pressure ? Did you just ask the rump to move over or was it essential that the hind legs crossed over. It's a yield, so was it done with softness or with attitude?
> I know Parelli speak can be irritating to those who have not studied it, but, for me, it is more concise and precise...


Yes, of course it is more 'concise and precise': TO A PARELLI FOLLOWER.

He could list a set of conditions and call it "Condition T", and then Condition T would be more concise - to those who follow his training. So if the purpose is to 'lock' people into Parelli, then it makes sense. But if the point is communication, then all it takes is to say, "Practice moving the rear before mounting". Most would understand that means cuing as close as you can to how you would in the saddle, and most would guess it means disengaging the rear - another standard horse term recognized by most riders. The only reason to say, "My 'prepare to ride session' today involves playing the hind quarter porcupine game on the ground" is to make it intelligible only to a fellow Parelli acolyte.

"_The word work and play with a horse has more to do with mood, which the horse picks up on._"

I suspect you are very correct. Work is serious. Play is not. If I don't succeed at work, I try to figure out a way to succeed. If it is play, then we will just play again another day. And play, and play, and play...which in turn has become a stereotype of Parelli followers - always playing with their horse, and never riding. Like a lot of stereotypes, there is at least some truth to it.

My horses don't want me to play with them. They want me to direct them. They want certainty. They don't want "liberty". Liberty scares the hell out of them. They prefer the safety of knowing someone smarter and tougher is taking care of them. Turn them at liberty in my yard, and they will eat their way back to captivity in the corral, and wait for more food and water to be delivered to them. To them, the corral is not a prison. It is a place of safety, their "happy place". My mare is pretty vocal, but I doubt she'll ever start bellowing out "Born Free"!


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## tinyliny

Fargosgirl said:


> I'd like to add to the topic of using the 7 games as a diagnostic tool.
> I worked for a very talented show horse trainer for 3 years, periodically her students would come saying "my horse won't....." or "my mare started doing.....at shows" and expect the trainer to "fix" their horse. I would watch as Cathy would work on the horse, she had decades of experience, and absolutely no background in NH, but what she did with her riding, a Parelli student would call "testing the 7 games".
> 
> First she would be sure the horse was not in any pain, was confident, and not fearful. In Parelli speak, "winning the friendly game"
> 
> Then she would be sure that the horse was responding properly to rein and leg cues, which is the same as checking how well your horse "plays the porcupine and driving games".
> 
> Next she would see how well the horse would "rate itself" being sure it was maintaining gait, straightness, and direction, with equally light cues and without "babysitting". which are aspects of yo-yo and circling game.
> 
> She worked "sideways game" right away if the horse was having problems with lead changes, diagonals, or any lateral movements. Problems with "the sideways game" usually also involved a "porcupine game" problem too, meaning the horse was not responding to leg cues for some reason.
> 
> She usually only worked on "squeeze game" if the horse was having problems over jumps, or obstacles in trail work, testing to see if the horse was becoming impulsive or fearful around jumps and arena decor.
> 
> After a lesson or two, the horse would be performing wonderfully and her students would say she was a genius, because even though they had ridden with her for years, they didn't know the how or why of what she was doing. My Parelli background helped me to realize she had a mental check list of things the horse needed to do well in order for each task to be performed properly, and she could find any disfunction in communication quickly and remedy it.
> 
> The 7 games provides that checklist to help diagnose and correct problems at the root cause. The "games" format makes it easy for anyone to learn, what it would take decades of experience to learn otherwise. It's been said before, but the only thing "new" about 7 games is the way they are labeled and presented. Some think it is a mistake to make anyone think they can train their own horse, but I disagree, I *thought* I could train my own horse long before I'd ever heard of Parelli. Because or being a Parelli student, now I have a formula that is simple enough that even I can follow it and really can train my own horse. I can also watch other people train with the eyes of understanding, because I have had it broken down into layman's terms for me, with the 7 games.


 
Done correctly, this could work. However, so many people just do the check list, and the horse knows the check list ,too. He goes through the motions (wanting to please, as most horses do) but he may never really check in with the human, and he may never really let loose. He may be holding back a lot of stress or anxiety, and moving him along from step A to B you might not notice that he is still back in A, in the sense that , for example, you touched him all over, and he "took" it, but he really didn't feel ok about it , as evidenced by his facial expression and tight jaw and skin.

Or, in the circling game; the hrose goes around, same speed , but he's ambling along, heavy on his inside shoulder, looking outside the pen and tuned out. Rider doesn't see THAT because horse went around and rated his speed just fine. OK, on to step C.
This is what I see a lot of with Parelli people and horses. I know, this is not what Pat intended, but just by having such ornate steps and categories and such , it throws emphasis on the superficial appearance , rather than on the correctness of the horse's actions or movements or relationship to his leader.


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## gypsygirl

so just because people are too dumb to use it correctly means it has little or no value ?

i'm too dumb to understand chemistry, does that mean it has no value or can't be important or useful to other people ?


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## Pegasus1

Why is there this assumption that when I "play" with my horse I am not in the saddle ?:-o
I reckon that around 80% of my playtime I am riding. 
Many folks seem to think that "playing" cannot be anything but frivolous waste of time, and time spent with horses had better be serious. That is not how I see playing at all. I am serious about playing with horses, but the emphasis of the word is to ensure that I am not a direct line thinker.
And just because I am playing why would I not wish to improve and succeed in my ambitions in the game. Other games are played where success seems to be important, the Olympic Games for example.
It's a shame that it seems that many are put off a very good training program because they don't like the language. Surely a program should be rated on content as well.
I have also looked at other programs and clinicians, they all have their own language. Mark Cox talks of "softness". What on earth does that mean ? Until I suddenly realised that it was the removal of "brace" (the term used in Parelli) from the horses mind and body it made no sense to me. Brace does make sense, as I feel it in my own body when I get tense and feel opposition reflex kicking in. Dentist chair springs to mind :-(
"Bending your horse around your leg" made little sense given that the thoracic vertebrae can hardly move laterally. "Inside leg isolations", the term James Roberts taught me, made way more sense to me and I could then access the information that talked about "bending around the leg" in other publications.
How about "Collection". Collect what ? It's just a term that everybody thinks they know what it means because it has been around so long. Why not just say "weight the hind legs". That seems to be the upshot of the wikipedia explanation. This article seems to imply that many don't understand that term either Collection, balance & energy of the riding horse
Let's not get so hung up on words, or we'll get nowhere. If I use a term you don't understand just ask politely, I'll try to explain. If the explanation is not satisfactory ask for more clarification. 
If your not actually interested in trying to understand the language then maybe don't read a thread that makes it clear in its' title that it is asking for an explanation of the Parelli terms.


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## tinyliny

It's not the words that I was commenting on. Due to the step by step nature of the Parelli program, the nomenclature given to each step and the way that participants have levels with set goals (regardless of the horse they have in front of them) , that this problem I was talking about where the handler cannot see the forest for the trees, so to speak. The very thing that makes the Parelli program so accessable to so many people, especially newbies, and helps get them started into understanding hroses (a good thing), is at the same time the reason that participants become more likely to be overly focussed on that, and loose sight of the horse itself, and how it is in THAT moment.

The language used could be either helpful for those on the inside, or alienating for those on the outside. But, it isn't the reason that I have seen such negative results on Parelliized horses and thus have a less than positive opinon of the Seven Games.


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## Fargosgirl

tinyliny said:


> Due to the step by step nature of the Parelli program, the nomenclature given to each step and the way that participants have levels with set goals (regardless of the horse they have in front of them) , that this problem I was talking about where the handler cannot see the forest for the trees, so to speak. The very thing that makes the Parelli program so accessable to so many people, especially newbies, and helps get them started into understanding horses (a good thing), is at the same time the reason that participants become more likely to be overly focused on that, and loose sight of the horse itself, and how it is in THAT moment.
> 
> The language used could be either helpful for those on the inside, or alienating for those on the outside. But, it isn't the reason that I have seen such negative results on Parelliized horses and thus have a less than positive opinion of the Seven Games.


I have to agree that people see "Parelli training" and "seven games" as the end of their education. They get stuck in a spot and do not progress, but again that is not PP's fault.

You mentioned above that you see horses, tuned out, stressed out and traveling badly during the circling game. I agree I have seen all of that too from parelli students. To start out in the program all of that is acceptable, as the horse or human is learning, but in order to progress you have to begin to differentiate between, doing something, and _doing it right_. 

Pat puts emphasis on not just "playing" the game but "winning" the game, which means the horse is performing the task with a positive, responsive attitude and in a properly balanced body position. Too many just play and never look for quality or learn how to ask for quality. I've also seen that same scenario with other trainer's students(notably the afore mentioned Cathy's students) Is it fair to judge their teaching technique or terminology based on the student's lack of dedication or understanding?


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> ...How about "Collection". Collect what ? It's just a term that everybody thinks they know what it means because it has been around so long. Why not just say "weight the hind legs". That seems to be the upshot of the wikipedia explanation. This article seems to imply that many don't understand that term either Collection, balance & energy of the riding horse
> Let's not get so hung up on words...


Words are all we have to communicate with on the Internet. If used vaguely, our ideas will be vaguely understood, if at all.

Collection has an FEI approved definition - at least collected gaits have one - and it has been in use by the FEI for over 100 years. That is as standard as you can get. it is much more standard than terms used by an individual trainer.

My point was that when a trainer uses words with definitions that only he and his followers know, it locks his followers into his training, and it makes it sound like he is offering something unique. As a marketing technique, it is outstanding. As a way of communicating with as many as possible, it is not.

If Parelli helps you figure out your horse and progress as a rider, then great! You have said yourself that at some point, maybe soon, you'll need to leave Parelli and begin more specialized training. Only you can decide if that means starting to convert what you learned from Parelli into a more commonly used framework of language. But I know what it is like to get a very late start in life in understanding horses, so I'll wish you well and think good thoughts about Parelli for helping you to progress.

I also thank you for the effort you have made to translate some of this into threads outsiders can read and think about. The stereotype of a Parelli student is someone who plays ground games because she is afraid to actually ride her horse. Most stereotypes have some truth in them, but the always have a lot of falsehood mixed in. I'm glad to see that Parelli is helping some, at least, to learn and adapt and expand as riders and maybe even, eventually, as horsemen.

Oh - and while Horsemanpro equine articles, photos and videos can be entertaining reading, I'd suggest taking it with a big grain of salt. The horse poop to pony ratio is rather high...


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## Graureiter

Fargosgirl said:


> I have to agree that people see "Parelli training" and "seven games" as the end of their education. They get stuck in a spot and do not progress, but again that is not PP's fault.
> 
> You mentioned above that you see horses, tuned out, stressed out and traveling badly during the circling game. I agree I have seen all of that too from parelli students. To start out in the program all of that is acceptable, as *the horse or human is learning*, but in order to progress you have to begin to differentiate between, doing something, and _doing it right_.
> Snp, snip.


Too often both, horse and human are "learning" at the same time. 
With only dvds as "tutor"


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## Saddlebag

No matter what we do, when it's play, there are no time lines ie street hockey vs professional hockey. The players are relaxed and in good spirit. Too many people unconsciously have time lines which then leads to a lack of patience which results in stress. Stress results in a short fuse. This is not the way to be around horses and that is why it is so important to develop a play mood. With this comes forgiveness of mistakes.


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## Pegasus1

Saddlebag, that is the best description of why the attitude of "play" rather than "work" is such a good state of mind to be in.

Because Filly was badly started in a bit without having her teeth checked first (she needed 2 wolf teeth and 5 baby teeth removed when I got her !) she now throws her head around all over the place when we trot. There is not an ounce of resistance anywhere else in her body. 

James, and recently Sean, said make a game out of it. If you want to throw your head around, what a good idea. Let me help you, I'll throw my arms around as well. No contact on the head if I can help it, just exuberant arms. After a short while Filly kind of goes "but no ones fighting my head, that's no fun. I think I'll stop" and so we get a few strides of head down relaxed trotting with lots of rubbing. This isn't going to fix the problem overnight, but then she was being ridden in a bit with bad teeth and head tied down for 6 months so that is no surprise. It has become learned behaviour for her and I now have to de-program it.

It is the feeling of making it a game that makes this work for me. A game I am going to exaggerate to the point Filly doesn't want to play it either.

Maybe others would call this work but to me even this behaviour, if tackled with an attitude of fun, can actually be enjoyable to work through. That enjoyment and sense of fun then helps keep my frustrations under control and for me is a path to better results.


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## EquestrianCowgirl4

I like them cuz I have seen what they can do. There is a parellier at my barn and I never seen anything like what they can do. So I do them but i am not a strict parellier i like to mix methods from alot of people.


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## Back2Horseback

Without going into TOO much detail (HOPEFULLY) I will simply say that, in working at getting Fancy, one of the two horses I ride weekly, to pick up the canter today, I realized after my trainer pointed it out that I was getting frustrated and uptight, being overly self-critical and this was translating to Fancy.
We were at the tail end of a nearly 90" ride wherein we both had accomplished a lot and had some very excellent walk/canter transitions in both directions, some very freeing no stirrup work, & learned a lot this day. 
However, I was trying at the end of the lesson to further refine my cueing ability, but was tired and thus kept getting "super-speedy-über-fast trot", rather than correct canter from walk transition. and 3 times had to return down to walk and retry. 
Finally I was told by Holly-- "sit back, cue clearly & ONLY HOLD ONE THOUGHT IN YOUR HEAD...'We are going to canter a few nice laps around the arena...free-ourselves from the strict rigors of the lesson, and enjoy a fun run to end the lesson with'. Now GO-Left lead, CANTER!" And we DID! And it WAS FUN. & relaxed & peaceful and we both felt good (Fancy & I!)...we were both laughing (my trainer and myself) and had a GREAT ENDING to a challenging but very buildings lesson, simply because we chose to "play", rather than WORK.
It can be a great approach and highly stress reducing--for ME, horse "work" should not be STRESSFUL. I don't show, and ride as both an athletic endeavor and to become better at horse/human communication and to relax both myself and one day hopefully a future horse I own will benefit from what I'm learning now. That is the whole of it! PLAY IS HIGHLY, HIGHLY BENEFICIAL, regardless if whether the name "Parelli" is attached to it or not. ;0)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pegasus1

EquestrianCowgirl4 said:


> I like them cuz I have seen what they can do. There is a parellier at my barn and I never seen anything like what they can do. So I do them but i am not a strict parellier i like to mix methods from alot of people.


I do consider myself to be a follower of Parelli. Think of the analogy of a tree. Parelli is the roots and trunk BUT the branches, leaves and flowers are provided by both Parelli and many others. On my shelf I have books by Gwani, Mark Rashid, Dr Robert Miller, Chris Cox, Karen Rolf (admittedly she is heavily Parelli oriented), Paul McGreevy and Andrew Mclean plus many others. I also have videos from at least 5 other clinicians, though I am top heavy in the Parelli department there, mainly because they have produced so many !

At present when I look for an instructor I mainly go to a Parelli professional, but as time goes by I will look to specialists in the fields I wish to specialise in. Dave Stewart for colt starting and David Deptford for western riding spring to mind.

Having, basically, learned the Parelli program since I have come back to horses I do mainly "speak" Parelli, but I have little trouble translating others ideas into Parelli speak and actions.

As I have repeatedly said on this forum even Pat says that his program is not all you need to know to be a horseman. He advocates getting help from instructors outside the program. 

Personally I am not happy about the "Game of Contact" that Linda is promoting for riding with a contact, and I know many others in the program who think likewise. The truth is that when you see Pat advocating something you can be sure it has been tried on at least hundreds and probably thousands of horses. It is therefore probably pretty sound advice. Some of Lindas' instruction has not been tested this robustly and as a result I take ideas developed with a healthy scepticism. 

I don't dismiss Lindas' instruction but I do look for other evidence that her ideas are useful. Where she has analysed and written down knowledge she has gained by interrogating Pat then I do take that seriously, but that is actually just Pat translated so I can understand it. Horsenality is a prime example of this. Pat knew this stuff, but didn't know how to put it into words and explain it. Linda managed to tease this information from his mind, so that others could start to get an insight as to how he reads a horse. It's certainly not the whole story but it at least gives folks like me starting out the alphabet of the concept. As we build in experience we can take that alphabet and build it into words and sentences of understanding.

Some dismiss Linda and Pat because they feel that they don't ride very well. That may be true as I don't know enough about good riding position to comment. However the Parelli program is not about correct riding position, its about horsemanship which is the other 90% of being a good horseman. Even the video they have produced on it involves bringing in an instructor from outside the program to help present the video.

If want information of riding position I go to a BHS instructor. In fact I spent some time on a mechanical horse for just this purpose. Useful but not like the real thing. For advanced information I would probably look to the likes of Karl Hester whom James (my Parelli instructor) thinks very very highly of. 

Parelli is not, and never will be, a comprehensive riding program. What it is good at is putting a foundation on new horsemen from which they can move forwards into the specialisation they wish to follow.


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## amberly

I like the seven games. They do help me work better with my horse, and we have been having a better relationship. However, I do find Buck Brannaman and Ken McNabb pretty interesting too. We have videos for both of them, and I am hoping to go to one of their clinics this summer as well.


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## MustangGlory

I play the 7 games with my mare and I've found that she is more responsive and relaxed. She is also alot happier. And its pretty awesome to see my normallly high strung mare act so laid back and relaxed.


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## WorshipWarrior83

I like the 7 games myself. My trainer started Parelli when he first begain to train horses before he got big and famous. She uses many other methods incorporated when she trains but uses the 7 games a good foundational base to learn and grow.

I am currently working through the level 1 parelli stuf and find it very useful for gaining greater understanding of my horse and using the principles as a good way to learn better communication with my horse.


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## amberly

I only like what he teaches. I like Buck Brannaman better.


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## Pegasus1

amberly said:


> I only like what he teaches. I like Buck Brannaman better.


As in Buck is better looking or what :? . Being a bloke I can't compare those qualities of male horsemen very well :lol:


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## amberly

Pegasus1 said:


> As in Buck is better looking or what :? . Being a bloke I can't compare those qualities of male horsemen very well :lol:


No, because he teaches better and does things with horses a lot better.


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## penylove8

I personally just started parelli with the liberty and horse behavior dvd sets and I think they are very good because he helps you pay more attention to what your horse wants and feels instead of just making youe horse do what you want....I have watched clinton anderson and read his excerpt s in my monthly horse magazine and I find that he is very simliar to parelli just a littke more dry in the way he teaches...
I have used some of the material from both and my tb is a lot more responsive to parelli methods and he seems to enjoy it more as well....
So unfortunately every horse is different as well as every owner/trainer is different, and if your see a. Parelli based trainer he or she could also put a bit of there own views or twists on it as well, because when it comes diwn to it we are all different so weither it is parelli or anderson it turthful just comes down to what you and your horse enjoy more and always remeber. Your view is not the same as others so respect that abd just give advice of what you have experienced.
And yes buck branaham is awsome too, so try all three at least once and see who works better for you and your horse


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## Nokotaheaven

DancingArabian said:


> I think there's a definite disconnect between Parelli lessons and some followers. I've read the stuff and while the presentation at times is a little patronizing to me, I do like it. Some of the videos are ok too. I've given a few of the games a to with my horse but he does better with a more CA style of approach and that's the methods I primarily use on him. I say there's a disconnect because some of the most poorly behaved horses I've ever met we're strictly Parelli trained, so while the method seems decent it doesn't look like it works for everyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, what I've found, is if it's done the way it's meant to be done, which is adjusting things to the horses type of mindset and smarts so he understands and doesn't get bored, it works on every horse...
People tend to blame the way their horse is on either the horse himself or the way he was trained, instead of saying they themselves caused it.
In people's minds it works like 'people with horse problems'
in their horse's mind it works like 'horse with people problems'.

A lot of times I hear people say "Ohh, I tried this trainer's method, but it just wasn't for me.'
Does the horse get an opinion? No because he can't speak... The most inquisitive and well behaved horses i've met are all Parelli trained, properly. this includes mine


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## Nokotaheaven

By the way, I'm not saying Parelli is right and all other trainers are wrong.. i just hate how much discrimination there is against Parelli. I know from years of doing his methods and watching others use them that they work perfectly fine on every horse if done correctly.


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## penylove8

I agree 100 % with you nokotaheaven


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## Nokotaheaven

Thank you


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## Saddlebag

Pegasus, I was amused at your tactic for getting more active than your filly and how well it worked. Most people would try the opposite and get no where. We need to stop and assess if something isn't working and maybe try the opposite. I look at it this way, as long as a person isn't inflicting pain then it's ok to try new tactics and not worry if it's right or wrong. The horse will let you know.


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## Saddlebag

The greatest lesson my horse taught me is to live in the moment, because that is what we are all doing. We can't live in the past nor the future, but right now. The mind is a bit of an oddity in that it gets noisy, noisy with tho'ts of what has happened, what might happen and what is going to happen and we need to tame those noises. There's a misconception that if we hear voices, we are nuts. Surprise, we all hear voices, our own, in the form of thoughts. How many times have we thought "well if she says this, I'll say that" and make up this hypethetical argument when the situation doesn't exist. Those are the type of thoughts that keep us from peacefully enjoy "now". Your horse lives in the now, he doesn't think about what he ate yesterday or hope for a treat next week. It's not easy to clear the mind completely, it takes a lot of practice but try it when next you are with your horse. Think only of your breathing and nothing else. This quiets the thoughts in your head as you focus on breathing.


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## Mylady

I do 7 games with my horse and must say that it really helped me and him to understand each other better. He is a hotblooded ex-race horse:lol: the games make him think and work things out which keeps him calm and concentrated. I am very pleased with the results and I hope to go much further


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## Whizzer

I became fascinated with Parelli after I vacationed at a Dude Ranch in Montana where all their horses were Parelli trained. It was a great experience and the horses were wonderful. I even played the circling game with one of their horses (with help from dude ranch of course)!

I was pretty new to horses at that point and had only been taking English lessons once a week for about 5 months so I didn't have much experience with horses on the ground. Studying the 7 games really helped me to understand "horse psychology" and made working with them less intimidating. My trainer let me take out a horse after my lessons sometimes to practice the 7 games. I only got through the first 3 games with one of her horses because she doesn't always have a horse to spare for me to practice with, but I find that I use the Friendly Game and Porcupine Game quite a bit around the barn for various scenarios (like asking the horse to move over in the crossties).

What I liked most about the 7games is that for horse novices (like I was before) it gives a pretty solid foundation of horsemanship, groundwork and allows you to understand the "why" of horse behavior so you can handle other situations by thinking it through. 

I've not studied any of the higher levels, but I found the 7 games (level 1) helped me to be a better horsewoman when I was first starting out and I still use the principles along with what I learn from my current trainer.


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## WorshipWarrior83

the key whizzer is when they are used like you are using them. As a tool but not in replacement of a trainer which is what far too many people do. Far too many inexperienced people get the DVDs and think they can just start training horses.

I find the games easy to understand and helps me with my communication with our horses as well but I rely heavily on the experience of our trainer for teaching me what steps to take in what situations. So while I like the 7 games and a lot of the Parelli method Im a huge advocate of having an experienced trainer to always help guide you along.


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## Oldhorselady

When I first got my first and crazy horse, it was with the Parelli style that we both learned. I first tried CA, but the tapping stuff would make her see red. The giggling, gentler approach of the Parelli style worked best for us. I was also new to horses during this part of the journey and it helped me learn to read horse body language, slowly. It was something I could do with my horse to build a trust and relationship with her. I was in no rush to get on her and ride, just learn about her and have her learn about me, for months before I rode her. It was also something I felt coordinated to do, which I think helped my horse since I could be clear and consistent.

As the years have gone on now, and I have other horses, I change my method style as needed. I have had to use an approach where I need to be less 'gooey' and mean what I say 'now'. So, I do use some of CA stuff at times too. I really don't use one or the other, kind of a mix. I always love to start with join up type exercises to learn about what the horse is made up of in a matter of minutes...then I can decide what approach to take.

That being said, my first and crazy horse turned out to be a wonderful annd respectful horse. She was a pure joy for me and she was trained when all I knew was the Parelli style. It worked for us, but I can see when another approach may be needed for different horses.

Some of the stuff is really the same anyway....Yoyo game = Hula Hoop method etc. They use the same 'stick' etc.


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## Kathe Smothers

I have been learning from Buck Brannaman for 21 years. I believe in what he teaches and what he teaches is suiting for the horses and keeps the human safe. Having the horse conneted and respecting you is essential. I believe what he teaches and I teach what he teaches. I work with Mustangs, Problem Horse and Start Colts. I teach others the importance of being aware around horses on the ground and on their backs. I don't think playing games is the best way to work with a horse. I also think humans go to clinics and get a little bit of knowledge and think they know it and can get hurt, confuse their horses or get someone else hurt. If you are not an experience horse person and you are playing games with your horse there is potential for getting hurt. One of the reasons I have stayed with Buck all these years is because what he teaches keeps people safe. But people have to make a commitment and work at the methods any person teaches.


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## WorshipWarrior83

Katie I will say this. The games are for you to remember that working with your horse should be fun for you and him or her.
Now I will say this when i started watching the level 1 material that PP has I would have expected more about safety in there. I mean he does show you some safety measures to take and how to do blocks to keep a horse out of your space but I have to admit Ive watched other trainers videos and they talk much more about safety.

This is also where having an expereienced trainer guiding you is important. Its pretty well stupid to think you can watch some DVD's and start training horses. I would say unless you as a person are already pretty in tune with how to work with horses then the DVD's aren't gonna be enough for you.


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