# Types of Dicipline



## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm new to horses, but I've always thought it asn't a good thing to hit a horse, even in a diciplinary situation. But after attending Pony Club yesterday, nearly all riders hit their horses, quite a bit too. 

We were also told to hit our other horse (who has been trying to kick us) with a piece of pipe. I just think it's cruel, even hitting them.

I guess since I'm a very caring person and my parents have never hit me when I was naughty, I don't see why it's neccesary.

I watch Pat Parelli train his horses. When they play up, he doesn't hit them, he uses natural horsemanship techniques to teach them not to do what they are doing wrong.

I gave Dusty a tap when I was on him, he kept trying to sit down, and after that he was fine.

This whole thing confuses me. You have world class trainers, some that hit their horses and some that don't. All the other horses that were at PC were getting hit by their riders and their horses always play up. I rarely hit my horse and he doesn't play up.

So it seems, not hitting them is better. What does everyone think? I just want some opinions. I do believe a diciplinary smack is ok, but that it shouldn't be too hard and pipe definately shouldn't be used.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

I think if a horse kicks me in an aggressive manner...I'm gunna make them remember that moment for the rest of their life. 
I am not abusive, but I do deserve respect. I feed, water, nourish them, and give them respect and in return I ask for respect. 
Horses are not fluffy stuffed animals. They are 1000 lb LIVESTOCK that can and will hurt someone if not diciplined or taught not to. 
I'm strict with my horses. I expect them to NEVER push, shove, bite, kick, sneer, or be aggressive with me. I am NOT going to get hurt or allow my horses to hurt others.
I think if you can't stand up and be a HORSEMAN, then you shouldnt have horses.
I've worked for and dealt with people who were "animal lovers". There horses were the nastiest, most cocky and aggressive things I've dealt with. 

A pecking order needs to established immediately. And I will ALWAYS be at the top. That's my opinion. But I've never had anyone get hurt by my horses (including myself and other horses) and they are well taken care of and happy. They just know how to act.


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## Sophie19 (Apr 13, 2009)

The only time I hit my horse is if he tries to bite me. And then it's usually a light slap or pinch. I feel like hitting your horse for any reason besides a bite or kick is only going to confuse the horse and make him act up more. I once saw a horse beaten with a whip for peeing in the cross ties. It's just terrible the things some people get mad at their horses for.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

Sophie19 said:


> I once saw a horse beaten with a whip for peeing in the cross ties. It's just terrible the things some people get mad at their horses for.


Now that is uncalled for. Poor thing.


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

like some of the previous posters i believe that it is important to be firm. i AM the alpha and i will not allow my horses to think otherwise. that's how you get a rude dangerous horse. on the other hand, you need to have a limit on why, how, and how hard you hit your horse. i will give light taps with a crop and occasionally a lead rope if absolutely necessary but i never EVER hit my horses with anything other than my hand. and in using my hand i only ever hit with my palm, slap if you will, to cause a slight stinging sensation that fades quickly. i once met a girl who would punch her horse in the neck if he acted up and he became so sore in the area that he flinched if you even ran over it with a soft brush. lasting pain is not okay. i also only ever hit them if they are being outright disrespectful (trying to bite, kick, or bully me at all). while riding, and even sometimes working from the ground, i never hit if they are not doing what i ask them to because usually it's because they don't understand what im asking, not a behavioral issue, and hitting when a horse is confused WILL end up turning them into aggressive, hateful horses.



Sophie19 said:


> I once saw a horse beaten with a whip for peeing in the cross ties. It's just terrible the things some people get mad at their horses for.


oh my god. that's horrible.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

i AM the alpha and i will not allow my horses to think otherwise. 

. They are 1000 lb LIVESTOCK that can and will hurt someone if not diciplined or taught not to. 
I'm strict with my horses. I expect them to NEVER push, shove, bite, kick, sneer, or be aggressive with me. I am NOT going to get hurt or allow my horses to hurt others.
I think if you can't stand up and be a HORSEMAN, then you shouldnt have horses.

Well said bothof you. And, look at two horses playing in a field and look how rough they get, it would be hard to get that rough with a horse.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

I support a firm smack if any disrespectful, possibly dangerous situations arise. I love my horses to death, and I never, ever, beat them. But if they bump me with there nose one more time it's going to be a stinging muzzle. 

With prompt correction, Loki mostly did it, I haven't had any more problems like that. 


Rushing the gate, bumping, pushing, charging, bucking (not out of happiness), kicking, laying ears back, or swinging the butt around are ALL corrected firmly.

I also correct, but not very firmly, moving around when tied (purposely trying to untie oneself) and pawing. A tap on the shoulder with a crop does the trick. Not a smack, just a touch. It reminds them that "Hey! I'm supposed to be standing quiet when being groomed so I get treats n' stuff!" 

I'm not fond of hitting with objects like PVC, 2x4, but if it's needed, it's needed.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Beating your horse with a pipe is wrong.

But if your horse is aggressive and disrespectful, I see nothing wrong with giving them a pop and then going on with my. I don't make a big deal out of it or do it out of anger...I also do it within 3 seconds of the incident so they realize what they are being punished for. 

Sure, if a horse is coming at me ears bared and about to ruin my life, I will throw a bucket at him. But to go after him with pipe is just uncalled for, IMO


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

They told you to hit them with a piece of _pipe_? That's disgusting. You can get in serious trouble for that around here.

The only time I ever hit a horse is when he does something really naughty, like kicking or biting. The first and only time Victor tried to kick me was when I was tacking him, and I kicked him hard under the belly. It about killed me to have to strike him, but he planted his foot right back down and never did it again. When a horse does something dangerous, you have to reprimand them. You're the leader, and just like the lead mare in a herd, you teach them right from wrong and what is and is not acceptable. If Vic had gotten away with trying to kick me that first time, I guarantee you he would have continued to do it, and it could have become a dangerous vice. What would happen if your horse kicked or bit a little kid next? 

That's why it's so important to nip it in the bud before it becomes a huge problem. I would never abuse a horse, but I'm not afraid to whack the living tar out of them if they kick or bite. That doesn't mean you have to be a tyrant, though. Your horse learns that you're very nice to be around as long as he behaves. If he's nice to you, you'll be nice to him.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

On a note, I don't mean that going off, finding a piece of pipe or 2x4 and hitting a horse is right. I mean if you happen to be holding such an object, lets say your going out into the pasture to fix something, or you picked it up on the way out, and the horse displays an obviously dangerous form of aggression (kicking, biting, charging). I wouldn't old it against you if you wacked it on the shoulder or rump with it. Or even gave it a slap around the face. In a herd, such measures would be used on another displaying such behavior. Except instead of a slap or a wack, a bite or a kick would be used instead.
(hard objects should not be used on around a horses face, ever. Ever smashed into a door frame? Door knob? Rake in the face? It's like that.)

Just thought I'd clear that up >.<


Being a horse owner, or being around horses in general requires you to be quick on your feet and correct bad behavior swiftly and correctly. I was out at my old stables, and the gentlemen (awesome guy) who bred and raised Loki was giving him a pat. Loki decided to have a nibble and got slapped on the muzzle. It was rightly done. Nibbling turns into biting, which can turn into serious temperament and disrespect problems.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I never hit my horses. There just isn't any need for it, it's an aggressive act by the human and it does nothing for the relationship. I study Parelli, so I follow his principles.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> I never hit my horses. There just isn't any need for it, it's an aggressive act by the human and it does nothing for the relationship. I study Parelli, so I follow his principles.


I'm looking into the Seven Games to use with my horses, especially Red my youngster. He does have some pretty interesting stuff.

I also new a girl who had a beautiful gelding. The second you would put a saddle on him, he'd blow up. She started Parelli and he was doing wonderful.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

That's great. I hope you like it, if you decide to try it.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

My primary issue isn't with the hitting itself, but for the reason why people hit horses. I see so many "slap happy" people who hit their horses for stupid and unnecessary reasons, like adjusting themselves in the cross ties (who cares? I get bored standing stock still too!), or people who had a horse run away from them, when they finally caught him they'd smack him. Oh great. You just taught your horse that if he allows himself to get caught, he gets smacked. He's not going to associate you hitting him to him running off twenty minutes ago.

Also, in MO, there's a difference between acting up because a horse is scared or because they're being bratty. If your horse is terrified of getting on the trailer and refuses to get on, what is hitting him going to make better? I never get mad at my horse or discipline him for being scared or confused. It's just part of their nature. However, if my horse acts malicious, I don't see anything wrong with a light slap on the shoulder. I never hit a horse in the face, and I don't think it's ever okay to do so. I've seen too many headshy horses. If your horse attempts to bite you, he'll learn just as much from a smack on the chest than a smack on the face. Plus, if you've ever observed wild horses, they don't ever go after one anothers face unless they're really fighting. A bite on the neck and ears pinned back is usually all it takes for wild horses to get their point across. My horse never kicks me, or trys to bite me. He's very respectful and moves around my personal space, so I don't really ever have a need to smack him, but if he ever presents one I will. He has a habit of giving me filthy looks, but he does it to everyone and has for 10 years, so I've chalked it up to him being socially inept.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yeah hitting horses is fairly counterproductive. I could go on a rant, but I'm not going to. Basically horse misbehaves -> interrupt him -> correct him - > reward him -> horse gets a positive experience -> horse learns.
Yay!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

It depends on the horse for me. I'd never ever beat a horse or kick one or anything harsher than just a slap on the neck but I will smack them on the neck if they push me to it.
There are some horses that just don't respect you unless you get a little in their face so I will smack them, hard, when they try to bite me.
But there are other horses that will fall apart if you tap them too hard. Lacey is like that. She's usually pretty good about being respectful but sometimes she keeps pushing on me (for instance, I fed her a treat for doing what I asked and she continues to nudge me and won't focus on anything but the other treats I have) I'll tell her no but if she keeps doing it, I'll gently smack her on the neck with a high-5 type of pressure becuase that is all she needs to be reminded that I am the boss.

There are other horses that I wouldn't ever even gently tap angrily becuase it would ruin our relationship and they would just get scared and not understand the point. Usually those horses are so into humans that just ignoring them for a bit does the trick. I don't think that kind of horse is very common though.

I have seen people get totally emotional after their horse misbehaves, like once I was riding an older horse and he bucked me off at the canter. My trainer, at the time, ran over to the horse and kicked him repeatedly in the stomach. Then she smacked him in the neck. I think that was way way out of line for her to have done that. Especially since she was punishing him way after the fact.
That's another thing about punishment, it has to be done right as or within a few seconds of the misbehavior, otherwise it will be totally pointless and basically just abusive.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

it has to be done right as or within a few seconds of the misbehavior, otherwise it will be totally pointless and basically just abusive.

I sgree with you wholeheartedly, horses are amazing creatures that can be very forgiving of our mistakes.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Just watch how horses disciple each other... from ear pinning to full blown bites and kicks... 

I dont' use "stuff" to hit my horses but they do get a hand or well placed kick when deserved ....


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

As I expected everyone has different views on this. 

I hate hitting animals, even if they are doing something wrong. I think my horse knows I'm boss now, I displayed that at Pony Club.

I'll use all means possible if he is doing something wrong which doesn't involve hitting him, then if i think its needed, i will tap him on the neck.

I want to look into Parelli, Pat can do brilliant things with them and he doesn't hit them. My dog has never been hit (a little when he was young) but since then, we only used a firm voice and he knows. On the other hand, I've seen dogs who get hit regularly when they do something wrong and they are agressive and scared of people.

So now I have 2 questions. If my horse moves forward when I'm on him, it's simple, you pull the reigns if you want him to stop. Currently, he seems to move back all the time. When we are at the pole bending start line, he gets restless and backs up, I cant stop him. I have the reigns loose and kick him in the sides to get him going forward but he simple doesn't, he keeps moving back. How can I get him to stand still?

Secondly, What would be the best and cheapest way to study Parelli?

Thanks.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

As I expected everyone has different views on this. 

I hate hitting animals, even if they are doing something wrong. I think my horse knows I'm boss now, I displayed that at Pony Club.

I'll use all means possible if he is doing something wrong which doesn't involve hitting him, then if i think its needed, i will tap him on the neck.

I want to look into Parelli, Pat can do brilliant things with them and he doesn't hit them. My dog has never been hit (a little when he was young) but since then, we only used a firm voice and he knows. On the other hand, I've seen dogs who get hit regularly when they do something wrong and they are agressive and scared of people.

So now I have 2 questions. If my horse moves forward when I'm on him, it's simple, you pull the reigns if you want him to stop. Currently, he seems to move back all the time. When we are at the pole bending start line, he gets restless and backs up, I cant stop him. I have the reigns loose and kick him in the sides to get him going forward but he simple doesn't, he keeps moving back. How can I get him to stand still?

Secondly, What would be the best and cheapest way to study Parelli?

Thanks.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

bsdhorse said:


> As I expected everyone has different views on this.
> 
> I hate hitting animals, even if they are doing something wrong. I think my horse knows I'm boss now, I displayed that at Pony Club.
> 
> ...


To be honest it sounds like your horse is anticipating the "run". He's nervous and simply doesnt want to do it. What kind of work are you doing with your horse? What is your normal riding regime?

The second... I personally dislike parelli immensely. He's a business man. Without a doubt. And knows darn well how to market a way of riding that's been around for ages to those new to the horse world. Unfortunately he does it for no other reason than to plump up his bank account. 
Studying NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP isnt as expensive as studying Parelli. There are often natural horsemanship trainers scattered around that you can snag for a beginning class. There are clinics to get you started. I suggest finding someone in the area that can help you. Some one EXPERIENCED. Not a little girl who thinks she is because she got her horse to follow her around the arena.
And just a side note...
Don't consume yourself with any single method of training. Every method lacks and contains something. Horses are different and there is no distinct outline to follow. Educate yourself so that your ready when that occassion comes up.
For instance Clinton Anderson is a fine trainer. Or you could even dabble into dicipline specific trainers. Stacy Westfall, Bob Avila, Sheri Cervi, Charmayne James, Charlie Cole, Steve Heckaman... there are so many and each is unique.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

It was the first day he has ever been pole bending. The first time he went fine, I guess he didn't know what was going on, but as you say, the second time he knew what was happening and probably didn't want to do it.

I understand that, but are there any techniques I can use to gain more control over him moving backwards?


I know someone who is very experienced, she has spent around 50 yrs with horses. But I don't particularly like her. She always says to hit the horse when he is playing up, but I've always thought you weren't supposed to hit them while on them.

She is good though, she knows a lot.

But i'm in a very small town, I highly doubt that there would be someone here that's into natural horsemanship. They all seem slap happy, always hitting there horse when it really isn't that neccessary.

Realistically, I need to find a good book, a DVD or a website that explains everything in depth and is easy to understand. Then I can apply the techniques I learn, while taking adivce from the people at Pony Club that have plenty of experience.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

If you want your horse to go forward, I'd first of all stop kicking. Just squeeze softly, he CAN feel you. Next, if he goes back, take one rein and bend him and ask him forward. I've used this technique with horses before who were "stuck in reverse" and it works great. Your next challenge will be to make the gate/arena a good thing, not something to be nervous and anxious about.

I study Parelli, and I have been with the program for YEARS, and I can tell you he is NOT all about money. That's evident when you hear the man talk, he's so passionate about horses. I'll give you some HELPFUL advice about it.....you can check out www.parelli.com and look at the DVDs they have. For you, you might like the Horsenality and Seven Games DVD. You can also get on Ebay and look for their Level 1 pack. Pat also wrote a great book many years ago that's fantastic.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Parelli may not be about money, but the program has become about money. Even you have pointed that out talking about the man (dont know his name) who runs the marketing. Any good parelli ideas are lost under all the gimics and marketing and it is far too easy to do Parelli wrong (as you have pointed out it is posisble to do on another board). 

When asking for a stop, use your seat first. Stopping should not just be pulling on the reins. Use a progression of seat, voice, then hands. Sit deep in your saddle and say "whoa" or whatever you want to be your stop cue. If he doesn't respond then use your hands. 

As far as the poles...was it YOUR first time riding poles? Were you nervous or excited? A lot of riders in speed events tense up and get ready to run...this translates to the horse resulting in what you said you experienced.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Parelli may not be about money, but the program has become about money. Even you have pointed that out talking about the man (dont know his name) who runs the marketing. Any good parelli ideas are lost under all the gimics and marketing and it is far too easy to do Parelli wrong (as you have pointed out it is posisble to do on another board).
> 
> When asking for a stop, use your seat first. Stopping should not just be pulling on the reins. Use a progression of seat, voice, then hands. Sit deep in your saddle and say "whoa" or whatever you want to be your stop cue. If he doesn't respond then use your hands.
> 
> As far as the poles...was it YOUR first time riding poles? Were you nervous or excited? A lot of riders in speed events tense up and get ready to run...this translates to the horse resulting in what you said you experienced.


I agree...but I believe she was asking about keeping her horse from backing up without asking. In that case I would use my other aids. Use my voice, seat, and hands if my legs arent working. (It may be a good idea to work with a professional to keep your horse's body supple)
Does your horse have voice cues? If so, use them to encourage forward motion. If that alone won't work, sit up and off your horse's back to encourage movement. If he still moves backward, I would ask for a turn around and immediately as for forward motion out of the turn around.

If your horse is resistant to all of this, then I would have a vet come out (especially with it only being his 2nd time on poles) just to eliminate a physical issue he may have. If the vet give you the thumbs up, I'd go back and work on getting my horse broke. Meaning I want my horse to listen to me flawlessly at home. Move off my leg, seat, and hands. 
If I'm dealing with an extremely stubborn horse, I will carry a crop. If the horse tries it again, immediately give him a light smack on the tushy (along with other aids). Just enough to get a reaction of forward movement. As soon as he moves away, reward him by allowing him to just go on and continue forward without rider interferance. Eventually the horse will learn to respect the rider.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

bsdhorse said:


> It was the first day he has ever been pole bending. The first time he went fine, I guess he didn't know what was going on, but as you say, the second time he knew what was happening and probably didn't want to do it.
> 
> I understand that, but are there any techniques I can use to gain more control over him moving backwards?
> 
> ...


First off, being a good horseman is being a good filter. I've worked with several trainers that do things that I don't like BUT they know a lot and can teach me a lot. Absorb what they can teach you.

I, also, am out in the boonies. There are trainers and experienced riders. You just need to find them. Books, dvds, and videos will only teach you so much. There is NOTHING that can substitute for good old fashion first hand experience. That's one of the reasons I'm not for the "by the book" trainers like parelli and some others. I like to see and feel how to train my horses, not be told how to by a book. I'm not impressed with the little frilly shows they put on. I like to get down to the grit and work and I want to do it first hand. I find it to be more rewarding.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

It can be difficult to do ANY program, not just Pat's. Parelli isn't for every person....for certain reasons. Pat and Linda are not responsible for the marketing, that's Mark Wieler's doing, and I REALLY don't like the man. He's a jerk and a half.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

But what you all are missing is PAT AND LINDA have the final say in everything that goes one!!!! I have dealth with too many BAD Parrelli horses to ever have good thought about them...


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Actually Pat and Linda DON'T have the final say in everything. Mark owns 51% of the company and he doesn't need Pat and Linda's permission to do a lot of things, he just does it. 

And it's simply my opinion that you haven't dealt with bad Parelli HORSES, you've dealt with horses that are the product of the people's bad skills in following the program. It's not for every person....


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

IMO, there is a difference between discipline and punishment. Beating your horse for ANY reason is punishment. Hitting a horse because after the fact or repeatedly whacking him is punishment. Punching, whipping, hitting with a heavy object is punishment. None of these things do anything but cause fear. Giving a well timed whack with an open hand, leadrope, or crop is discipline and serves to teach the horse, just as a lead horse will nip and kick in the pasture


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but where did everyone get this idea that Parellis don't hit their horses? I went with a friend to a Parelli clinic because she had an extra ticket, and I wasn't at all impressed. Linda gave a demonstration on trailer loading where all she did was stand there and hit the horse over the head with an apple stick or whatever. After an hour the horse wound up rearing up and they called an intermission. But my point is, they do hit the horses. What's the difference if it's with a hand or a stick? I'm with you, buckoff. Parelli isn't a great horseman, he's a great showman. Go check out Clinton Anderson - he's very good to his horses and with him it's all black and white - you get results.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

ES CLinton has turned into a shwoman as well I USE to like Clinton until I seen and met him in person at RTTH and I have watched him attempt to bet several other "trainers" 

You wanna see real horsemen watch Stacy WEstfall, Chris Cox, Richard Winters, Tommy Garland to name a few... it is about training the horse to these guys and not about making you laugh... no gimmicks, no gadgets just the horse and you


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

I agree with you guys (eternalsun and peggysue)
I havent been to Clinton's clinics, so I don't know about what he's become as a showman, but I've read his older books and worked with trainers that followed his methods. They do work. There were no tricks or silly meaningless games. It was about communication. The same goes for the other trainers you mentioned peggysue. I've watched and read about all of them. I've gotten the opportunity to meet stacy and speak with her for a while and she's simply not a showman...she's a real horseman. Granted in the last year or two her career has really blown up as a trainer, but she teaches good things in a way that's easy to understand...on both the horse's and the rider's part.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

Peggysue, I'm sorry you didn't have the best experience with Clinton Anderson. While I've been a fan for a while, I saw and met him for the first time at Equine Affaire last year and was blown away. His clinics were very educational and his technique really works. You can tell that with him, there is no apprentice in the back working with the horse for two hours before they go out just to make him look good. An example of that would be the one of the clinics I saw, where the horse Clinton was riding bolted towards the gate and started attempting to jump out of the arena. Obviously this wasn't at all planned, but the way he handled it was incredible. He had the horse calm, relaxed, and walking on a loose rein in half an hour. Afterwards, when I met him, he couldn't have been nicer. He talked to me and answered a few questions I had about working with my horse. I met another high profile clinician a few years ago, and all he told me was "buy my book". And you're right, he is a hell of a showman as well, but I don't think it's an act. From talking to him, you can tell he's just naturally very funny and sarcastic.

I am also very fond of Stacy Westfall. I could watch her bareback and bridleless reining patterns all day. She was very impressive in the Road To The Horse DVD too.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

ES rent or buy the Road to the Horse CD's and watch him again Stacy and Chris Cox ... that is wehre you SEE the difference ... and the first year I went I noticed his horses are ALWAYS BEHIND vertical which is a peeve of mine... when a horse tucks it's nose like that it is very easy to lose control no thanks I want mine vertical or a tad above like is natural for them ...


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I guarentee Linda was not hitting the horse. There is a huge difference between making things uncomfortable and actually hitting the horse. I've seen Pat, Linda, and their top instructors give numerous trailer loading demos and not once did any of them hit the horses involved.....if a horse was confident and simply wasn't trying to get in the trailer, they slowly made things more and more uncomfortable until the horse *thought* about the trailer and then they stopped....and then they worked up to the horse taking one step, etc. If the horse you mentioned reared it was probably just having a temper tantrum, and that's just when you ignore it and continue asking until the horse tries for you.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I love how Pat and Linda can do no wrong.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

Ditto, Spastic Dove. 

Spirithorse - she was making the horse so "uncomfortable" with that absurd stick that he reared up, ripped the rope out of her hands, and they shut the whole clinic down for about half an hour. Obviously the horse had a bit of a tantrum - he had just been harassed for an hour! The trailer loading demo ended with that - Pat came out as if nothing happened and started on something else. 

Not that I'm particulary opposed to a light spank when a horse misbehaves, but if I were a horse, why the _hell_ would I get on a trailer if someone is standing in front of me, hitting my head with a stick? How is that a useful way to teach a horse to trailer load, either? "Oh, now, I can't walk my horse onto a trailer, but if I stand here and annoy him for an hour he'll either get fed up and get on or kill me." I respect yor opinions but I wholeheartedly disagree with them.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

*rolls eyes* Okay spastic dove and eternalsun, apparently I'm wrong and I should go over to your way of thinking......it's just not possible you didn't understand what was going on, or the circumstances that played into the demo....of course not......


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

Well that must be it ..... my intellect isn't high enough to understand Parelli! 


*Slumps over, drools on self, eats thumbtack found on desk.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IN MY OPINION:

The last Parelli horse that came through here put his owner in the hospital TWICE throwing such tantrums Parellites are supposed to ignore! I too refuse to take any more Parellized horses for re-training. And no, the problem is not with the people following the program as you claim in post #29, Spirithorse, - it's with the program itself. Here's why I say this...WAY too many nag a horse to the point where the horse becomes unresponsive and down right lazy. Ever taken a Parelllized horse and try to do any serious work with them? I have! Push one by expecting something from it and they have a tendency to explode. My biggest objection with P is reflected in this quote of his "If your horse says no, you either asked the wrong question or asked the right question incorrectly." Since the horse is NEVER wrong, it's up to you to appease the horse and his sense of timing EVERYTIME. Horses never learn that they HAVE to do what they are supposed to do WHEN you ask them to do it. This isn't a flaw in the people who are following his program, this is a flaw in the program itself.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

I think I'll just take a look on the net for natural horsemanship articles.


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

I've been reading a clinton anderson book lately and he said to give them a "HARD" smack on the butt if they try to kick. He's natural horsemanship and says to discipline physically when a horse acts out. I think the general consesus is that you don't hit a horse in the face... unless it bites...


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm not gunna encourage the arguement. I said what my opinion was of PP and that isnt going to change. I know first hand...I had attempted parelli a good long time ago and found it rediculous. (luckily I had previous knowledge of horses and training prior to trying parelli...or else I may have been as easily swayed as others) Anywho, y'all can do whatever your hearts desire is with your horses. That's why you have a horse, right? To do what YOU want with it. I just know that the way I do things works...and has worked multiple times. So, I personally am just going to stick with what works.




EternalSun said:


> Well that must be it ..... my intellect isn't high enough to understand Parelli!
> 
> 
> *Slumps over, drools on self, eats thumbtack found on desk.


and just to add...
:lol::lol:
That definately made me laugh


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Horse Poor said:


> IN MY OPINION:
> 
> The last Parelli horse that came through here put his owner in the hospital TWICE throwing such tantrums Parellites are supposed to ignore! I too refuse to take any more Parellized horses for re-training. And no, the problem is not with the people following the program as you claim in post #29, Spirithorse, - it's with the program itself. Here's why I say this...WAY too many nag a horse to the point where the horse becomes unresponsive and down right lazy. Ever taken a Parelllized horse and try to do any serious work with them? I have! Push one by expecting something from it and they have a tendency to explode. My biggest objection with P is reflected in this quote of his "If your horse says no, you either asked the wrong question or asked the right question incorrectly." Since the horse is NEVER wrong, it's up to you to appease the horse and his sense of timing EVERYTIME. Horses never learn that they HAVE to do what they are supposed to do WHEN you ask them to do it. This isn't a flaw in the people who are following his program, this is a flaw in the program itself.


A big part of the Parelli program is getting positive reflexes, which means the horse never says no. If someone can't push a button on a horse without it throwing a tantrum it IS their fault, I'm sorry, it just IS. They've tip-toed around the issue, not getting to the root of it.....perhaps the horse was too challenging, or the person and the horse are not a good match (like a more submissive person having a dominant horse)...so many things can play into it. However the Parelli program does NOT say tip-toe around your horse and never fix anything. And IMO the horse is never wrong....if the horse bites, kickes, bucks, invades space, is lazy or impulsive, etc. then that is a direct result of the person's handling. Plain and simple. It's not the horse being bad or stupid or acting like an a** or an idiot, it's simply that the person does not have the trust, respect, language and communication with the horse as they should. If they did, they would have no issues. Because they would know what to do, when, and any problems that could surface are avoided in the beginning. I have not once ever posted a training question on this forum. Why? Because I know exactly what to do if I run into a road block, but really those are VERY far and few between. I have no problems at all with my horse, we are just progressing with our training and having a blast doing it, and I've done nothing but Parelli with him since I got him. He came to me a labeled biter, kicker, man hater, would charge the stall door with mouth open, would rear when asked to canter under saddle and was said to be dangerous, vicious and unpredictable. He was going to be put down because he was so "dangerous." AND he had been to professional dressage and eventing trainers who could not do a thing with him. It's pretty interesting to me that PROFESSIONALS couldn't train him, but I, an every day horse owner who follows Parelli, can do amazing things with him now on the ground and riding that no one ever thought possible with him. I plan on showing him in dressage and hunters eventually and I know we will be very well prepared for the transition from foundation work to performance work.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Spirit Horse, both you and Horse Poor have strong options on the Parelli program as do allot of people, right or wrong that their opinion. No program is end all end program, none of them are prefect.

it works for you that is great, does it work for everyone else no that is also fine.

And this debate was on diciplining your horse not which natural horsemanship program is the best. let's get back on subject.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

BuckOff41570 said:


> I think if a horse kicks me in an aggressive manner...I'm gunna make them remember that moment for the rest of their life.
> I am not abusive, but I do deserve respect. I feed, water, nourish them, and give them respect and in return I ask for respect.
> Horses are not fluffy stuffed animals. They are 1000 lb LIVESTOCK that can and will hurt someone if not diciplined or taught not to.
> I'm strict with my horses. I expect them to NEVER push, shove, bite, kick, sneer, or be aggressive with me. I am NOT going to get hurt or allow my horses to hurt others.
> ...


 
I completely agree with this. I deserve respect and will if put in a position where I have to asert authority tell a horse off by hitting it. I don't use weapons or abuse riding tools that we have (such as whips) to help when that happens. The thing is, out in the wild, the herd leader will tell a horse off when it misbehaves. It uses its teeth, feet, anything to tell that horse off. Why is it so bad for us humans to do the same in APPROPRIATE situations. I agree, there are people out there that are horrible and abuse their position. But I think reprimanding a horse if it's being disrespectful is a must. A firm smack to "bite" back solved my mare's nipping habit quickly, and I don't regret doing it either. 
x


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

yesterday, I was going to ride dusty. his feet were cracked in some places and were in desperate need of shoes if he was to be ridden.

I took him to be shoed, it seems he has never been shoed before. He kept pulling his leg away and it took about 20 mins just for hi mto keep his leg still. Soon after he pulled away again.

The farrier had a few people help hold him. But again he kept pulling away, frightened and scared, not knowing what was happening. Eventually, she got one nail in, then on the second he pulled away and the nail went right through her rist. She hit him a few times.

Then, they decided to drug him. It take minimun of half an hour to kick in, but they continued straight after they gave it to him. So he was pulling away just as badly. Over the next 3 hours, they only managed to get the front 2 shoes on.

In that time, he was nose twitched and he kept rearing in pain. Then he had a twitch across the top of his gum, which they ended up pulling so tight his gums were bleeding. He was also, kicked in the guts 3 times, hit with the lead rope about 10 times and hit about 20 times.

I thought the whole thing was cruel, and was nearly in tears watching all this happen to my horse. He didn't know what he was doing wrong, he was just scared and he was treated like that. I was nice and gentle with him and he let me pick of his foot...

This is what I'm confused about. They all tell me at pony club i need to give him a hit if he plays up, I think they are all slap happy, doing it all the time.

I'm the one at pony club who rarely hits my horse. everyone else always hit their horses and all their horses try to buck them, bolt or toss their head. I don't hit dusty and he behaves pretty well for being as green as he is.

We have another horse who was hit and stuff, not abused, just hit with the hand on the occasion he did something wrong. Now he kicks, bucks and everything. This is the reason why I am confused about this whole dicipline thing.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm so, so sorry that happened to your horse. That's just cruel and wrong. What a horrible thing for him to have to go through. As you saw, that kind of thing just doesn't work with horses....he trusted you because you don't act like that and he let you pick out his foot. Horses don't need to be smacked to get them to behave.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

I just took him for a ride. At first, he was a little hard to catch, probably a combination of fear that he was going to be hurt again and the fact that he knew he was going to be taken away from the herd.

He kept running away out in the paddock, so we got some hay and let him towards the house. I only took a small bit of hay to attract them. It was eaten quite quickly. Dusty ran as soon as the hay was gone. I got a little more and he came over to me, my dad got the leader and looped it around his neck while he took the hay from my hand.

We had him. He tried to pull away now and again, and kept backing up. We were patting him and brushing him, talking to him, just making him calm and relaxed, getting him to understand that we weren't there to hurt him.

Then we put his bridle on, it took a bit of work, since he probably thought he was going to be twiched again. But we got it on and put his saddle on. He was a little moody once the saddle was on, possible he was sore where the girth was on his stomach, from where he was kicked.

Dad rode him a little, then I jumped on. He was going quite well but it wasn't long and he seen the herd again. He wanted toi get back to them. I'd turn him and he would try and turn the other way, therefore walking sideways. I couldn't stop him. Each time he'd do it, I try and turn him left and kick his ride side, but he'd just keep moving sideways.

I got him to canter, but then I'd try turn and again he would go sideways, continuing until my leg would scrape along the barbed wire fence. After about 20 mins, I decided to get off. Next time I think we will take him away, so that the herd is out of sight and he will pay attention to me riding him.

As soon as we open the gate next to the paddock the herd was in, he bolted off, saddle and all. Accidently hitting me on the way past. We eventually got to him and got all his gear off. He ran back to the herd.

So from all this, I have found that showing love and care really does make a difference, instead of hitting. We are getting a different farrier to do his back two feet.

So when he walks sideways when I'm trying to turn him, what should I do?
(Other than kick him on the opposite side).


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Personally after the farrier ordeal and him playing up on the ground, I wouldn't have even bothered getting up on him, and just work on getting his trust back. Sounds like he had a really rough time with the farrier, something that should never happen. 
For starters, I don't mean to be rude, but why on earth didn't you stop them? This is YOUR horse, and I don't mean to upset you any further, but hell, if it were my horses, NO WAY would they be drugging him for shoes. I just would have said thanks but no thanks, and get another farrier out to do the job, as they clearly were incapable with dealing to a nervous horse. There was no need for what happened and you do have the power to stop things happening to your horse. I understand how terrifying it is to have people who are MEANT to be professionals do stuff and you want to say STOP! but you just can't find your voice. I've had farriers hit my horse cos it won't stand still due to the roughness they used grabbing their legs etc... and I've calmly asked for them to not hit my horse for their rudeness. I'm thankful for a patient farrier who doesn't smack my horses. 
Sounds to me that you need to get his trust back on the ground for a few days before you get back up in the saddle. 
Just my opinion, and I'm not trying to offend, it's just an unfortunate situation that happened to your horse that could have been prevented.
x


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah, I completely understand. I had a bad childhood and have a lot of mental issues, I'm scared of people. Thats why I guess I didn't speak up.

My mum and sister left because they couldn't watch anymore more. Next time, if anyone hits him, they will know about it.

And when we get a different farrier, I'll tell him before hand that I don't want him hit.

I did a bit of groundwork with him today, I got him to follow me without the leader, and stop when i stop, without saying any commands.

He does want to be around me, but I think in the end, he feels much safer with the herd. He does seem to trust me, but seems to be a little agressive towards me. Like for the first time today, he put his ears back. That was when I was riding him.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

bsdhorse said:


> Yeah, I completely understand. I had a bad childhood and have a lot of mental issues, I'm scared of people. Thats why I guess I didn't speak up.
> 
> My mum and sister left because they couldn't watch anymore more. Next time, if anyone hits him, they will know about it.
> 
> ...


 
Like I said, I know a few people who don't speak up due to fear or other reasons.. next time I'm sure your Mum or sister would speak up for you 
Good luck.
x


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

My riding club is very good. We aren't competetive and the horse get rarely smacked. My riding instructors occasionly smacks Sonnett, but that is when he tries biting her or me or is behaving very badly. I would probaly react the same way. I'm not really good at speaking out loud my feelings or telling people. me=non agressive person


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Well right now, I'm going to give Dusty time. Maybe a week or even two so I can show him I'm not going to hurt him. 

In a few days I'll do things like throwing the leader over his back and rubbing it on him gently, so he isn't scared of being whipped by it.

In the meantime, I'll get a different farrier to come out and tell him beforehand that under no circumstances is he to be hit.

And in the future, I think it's safe to say that I will only hit him if it is absolutely neccessary, and use all other means before resorting to physical dicipline.

I'm also going to look into getting a trainer so he can show me how to correct problems I'm having when riding Dusty, and to tell me if I'm doing anything wrong.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry, double post. But I just thought I'd add that I'm going to purchase Clinton Anderson's "Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Repsect and Control For English and Western Riders". And Pat Parelli's "Natural Horse-Man-Ship". Those two books seem to be the main one's by Pat and Clinton.

Here are links to both of them:

Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect And Control For English And Western Riders by Clinton Anderson, Ami Hendrickson and (9781570762840) - Angus & Robertson

Natural Horse-Man-Ship by Swan , Parelli , Pat Parelli and (9781585747122) - Angus & Robertson


What do you guys think? Can anyone recommend a better book/s?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Pat's book will really help you out a lot. It's a fantastic book.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

If you're interested in the natural horsemanship, maybe look into Monty Roberts. I don't use his methods but I know of a lot who do and and they love him. And good job purchasing the Clinton Anderson book! I hope you have a lot of success with him, he's the absolute best IMO.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm mainly worried about 2 things. 

1. I might teach Dusty bad habbits since I'm not experienced and he isn't either.
2. I don't really know the best way to bond with him, so while I think he likes me, he could still be scared.

I guess the books will help clear a lot of this up. And getting a trainer out will help too. So it seems it's all going to work out OK.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Chris Cox and forget the rest of them  LOL 

Pick one and stick with it ... I personally wouldn't go with Pat at all... seen too many screw ups with it ...


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Does Chris have any books?

I mean, right now I'm still not sure, everyone has their own favorites. It seems most like Clinton Anderson and just reading some other forums on the internet, most people there like him best two.

I think I'll just get Clinton's book then, read it, then if I don't think it's right for me, I might look into another program.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Chris Cox Horsemanship Co. : Clinician, Two-Time Road to the Horse Champion, TV Host, Equine Educator here is his website and yes he does it is "Ride the Journey"

If you like him another good one is Craig Cameron here is his wedsite Craig Cameron - Complete Horsemanship. From Beginning to Winning.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Craig Cameron is a John Lyons trainer so if you wanna spend that money just go with John's stuff... they ahve both been at Road to the HOrse and honestly didn't impress me much but then againI don't like Clinton either I want a trainer not a showman... and clinton freely admits he trains people better then he does horses... if you watched his seris with the OTTB it shows that his methods really don't work on all horses 

I have watch Chris do dressage, mustangs, WP" horses, of course cutting horses, jumpers you name it ... there are no gimmicks with CC at all and he is very very easy to understand ... doesn't do all the lead flipping stick flinging stuff


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Ok. So I've decided.

I'm going to buy Clinton Anderson's book. Gaining repsect and control is what I want to do here. In the title of his book it says that, so it seems that's what i'm looking for.

Pat's book I can borrow from a library so I might do that in the future. I am interested in John Lyons though.

Basically, In the end, I want a good book on natural horsemanship that will improve the bond between my horse and I, and something that will helpt me gain better control and more respect.

So what is a good book of John Lyons? Does he have one on horsemanship?


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

I have Clinton Anderson's book and I leared a lot from it. It's very "common sense" horsemanship, and the exercises are easy to do. 

I'm a big fan of John Lyons, too. He has a whole list of books, so here's his website. John Lyons E-Commerce Store - Books. The Troublshooting book seems like it would be helpful to you.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Peggysue said:


> Craig Cameron is a John Lyons trainer


Interesting. I watched him all weekend and didn't notice that at all.

I really like his approach (Cameron's) to several things. I always thought Lyons was wishy washy.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

MLS it was stated at RTTH that he is one of hte orgianl John Lyon Certified trainers... now he has taken some stuff ... and put his own twist on it ... he is more of an old time JL trainer not one of the newer ones


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm using the Gaining respect and control through groundwork book by Clinton Anderson and I've noticed it starting to work with Wiski. I'm still only on 'game' one and two so far but Wiski is starting to respond better so I'd say it's helping. I'd recommend it.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm sorry you seem to have had a few bad experiences with Dusty! I hope things get better from here.

One thing I want to mention... When starting out, NOTHING is more valuable than face to face instruction from a trainer/instructor that you trust. Books are a good resource, but they cannot help you with your individual horse and individual issues. They will give you good excercizes to try, etc, but don't only rely on books.

Do you know much about Dusty's history? Many horses who run speed events such as poles, flagging etc get nervous on the start line. A pony who was in my games team for 3 years used to back up on the start line. She started her facing backwards and she was fine :] He may have run speed events in the past and was remembering. In that case, take him steady, steady, steady. Try circling and bringing him back to start again, without halting. You can also try having another horse lead you up.

I'm sorry your PC seems to be full of people who have different methods to you... It must be hard! I'm lucky to have a very small PC and we are all very similar in training ideas and simple horsemanship ideas, apart from a few. If anyone tries to discipline your horse at PC apart from yourself, SAY NO. NO ONE has the right to discipline your horse except you, unless they are put in a dangerous situation. That goes for the farrier situation as well. I changed farriers a while ago asmy regular farrier (who I had no problems with when doing my pony) was too aggresive for my new, nervous ASH, resulting in a bad experience. I now have an awesome patient farrier who explains everything to me, and LISTENS when I talk to him about my horses.

I can't advise you on good books or DVD's... The only horse books I have read are 50yo english ones on classical riding (and I didn't get very far, lol) I find I ahve better success getting out there and trying things for myself. I can do liberty work, bareback/bridleless riding etc without the help on any guru's. However I wil be going to a few clinics soon as i feel I have reached a point where face to face training will be very beneficial.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Dusty was pretty much green broke when we got him, about 1-2 months ago. I'm quite sure he hasn't done any racing or competition. The previous owner just trained him up to sell him and also used to play games with him too 

I guess that why he went to rolol over when my sister was on him, must of thought it was play time.

I'm definately going to get a trainer, I really just want the books to get some background knowledge, little things that will help me as a beginner.

Since I can afford to buy a few books, I've decided to buy Clinton's, Pat's and John Lyon's books. I'm looking at about 5 books right now.

Will probably cost me a fair bit too, but I think it will be well worth it in the long run. Mainly because the people at Pony Club don't treat their horses right, and I'm not about to do the same. 

You know, my sister was holding his lead rope while I had lunch. She was patting his neck and talking to him. The women in charge of Pony Club tells her to stop. Earlier that day she was telling everyone to talk to their horses more, so my sister does and then gets in trouble for it.

All of them are just pushy, think they know it all's, that really have no idea what they are doing or how to create a good relationship between them and their horses. I see all the little kids just learning, they hit their horses because that's what they've been taught. I see it as one big tragedy.

One day, my sister and I will have the most well behave and responsive horses out there. When we get good, I can say that I rarely hit my horse and show it lots of love and care, some basic horsemanship techniques makes all the difference.

I'm 16 now, and only just started Pony Club. I plan to move to the city in 4 years, obviously taking my horse with me. But before then, I want to make a difference, I want to change our Pony Club. It might be hard and I'll have to do it descretely, but I'll make sure I make my point before I go.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry to double post. I thought I should end this thread, it's been dragging on for so long.

I just want to say thanks for everyone's help. I have found a trustable trainer and this trainer recommened some very gentle and patient farriers that possess very good hosemanship skills.

Also, I know it's not so good to use objects to dicipline a horse but in Bobby's case, kicking and all, it's very hard to safely hit him on the rump. My dad did get a piece of poly pipe, which is flexible obviously. He took it and when he tried to kick, gave him a hit so it wasn't too hard, but enough to sting. Later, he tried to kick again. Dad hit him again with the pipe and after that, Bobby stopped putting his ears back in agression. It worked perfectly. 

Now, if he does it anymore, we are going to try out best to use our hand, instead of the pipe, now that we have established some control. Because obviously, once we don't have the pipe, he will probably try again. Dad only decided to try it since he didn't want to get too close and get hurt.

We are still selling him anyway, but it's good experience before he goes.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

there is alot of good info in this thread ones like this are nice to keep going


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

manhirwen said:


> I'm using the Gaining respect and control through groundwork book by Clinton Anderson and I've noticed it starting to work with Wiski. I'm still only on 'game' one and two so far but Wiski is starting to respond better so I'd say it's helping. I'd recommend it.


LOL I mean "Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders".


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Peggysue, I just thought maybe people were sick of seeing this. But I guess I can keep everyone updated now and again.

manhirwen, I actually mentioned that I was going to get that book ealier in this thread, but that's ok, guess you didn't see it  - It is a big thread after all.



Anyway, today I have school. So I'm going now. Pony Club this weekend. I'll make sure to post what happens then. The discussion on dicipline can continue.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

It sounds like your PC has let politics and a few hard headed individuals overrun it. I do hope you can make a difference! Our chief instructor is a good friend of mine (i'm our other one, lol) and she rides my pony in mounted games. She talks to him 24/7! She tells him to brace himself everytime she goes to get on, out loud lol. It's hilarious :]


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

The women who runs it has been around horses for ages, probably more than 40 or 50 years. I think because of that most people think she knows everything and they do exactly what she tells them.

But other than that, most of the older kids hit their horses around when they don't do what they want them to do. While the younger kids are learning that, they also don't ride properly, therefore the horse doesn't do what they want, so they hit it.

For instance, their was a girl there last time, she'd click to her horse and tell it to get up. It would start to move, then she would pull on the reigns and the horse would stop. She would get stressed and keep pulling (not realising) and the horse would back up. Because it wasn't moving forward she would continually hit it. All she had to do was let him have his head, so that he didn't think he was supposed to go backwards.

All they kept saying was kick him and to yell at him to get up. I just sat and watched as she did so, still pulling on the reigns.

That's the main problem. They just hit or yell without reason most of the time. As soon as their horse does something they don't like they hit.

I was even starting to give Dusty a tap when I was on him the first time. Because I was picking that up from all of them. But it didn't take long and I realised when I hit him he would be worse because he was trying to work out what I wnated from him. So I didn't hit and he went pretty good for the rest of the day. Plus the fact that he hadn't been ridden much for the few months before we bought him, it was also my first propper horse ride.


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## Gusser (Apr 30, 2009)

We are having great difficulty getting on and riding our 16 yr old mare, She is descendent of The Great "Doc Bar". A Great looking and in shape horse. She is Dandy's Cherry Bar. AQHA. ( I've wanted one since I was eight. She's an easy catch. Saddling her up is not a problem.
Once you put a foot in the stirrup.... Whoa boy... She has a mind of her own. She'll move if not held. Plants her feet hen on her. Sometimes will take off...scary. I can't put wife or girls on her either; (which is why we have her). We got her a companion horse, thinking the attitude would change...nope. Prince Ala-mar is a nice little 14.5 hand Arabian( he floats when he runs) and is starting to get attitude also...My wife had horses when she was a teen and knows horses per her training years ago. We bought and feed these animals for our enjoyment and to ride together. ;} (kids too...we have 6 at home)....But I will not have my 6 yr old on either of them w/o leading them.... I bought some English saddles in an effort to comfort the horses; and we like English saddles...
How do I get on these animals, ride and enjoy. Help would be greatly appreciated. My wife or children may respond w/ my ; nom d' plume"
Happy Trails..and 
...thx

Gusser


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## equineeventer3390 (Mar 27, 2009)

Hitting with a pipe? i consider that abuse. is this pony club a recognized pony club? anyway, I never hit my horse hard. If he does something really bad i might pop him depending on what it is but usually i just say no or something in a firm voice. i also never pop him more than once, its just one quick pop. i do, however, give what my trainer calls a "love tap". a small tap on the shoulder or butt with a crop to encourage him to go forward if he is hesitant. i see nothing wrong with this.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Yes, I will smack my horses. I'm sure a lot of people think it's cruel to "hit," but I find it perfectly reasonable. If horse A can kick horse B and not cause damage, I can most definitely smack my horse with my hand, whip, curry comb on her shoulder or rump without causing damage. It all depends on the situation, and what's in my hand.

If I'm picking a horse's foot, and he turns around and nips, I'll swing my elbow back into his face. Or if a horse gets too far into my space, I'll flail my elbow at him. Now the horse thinks I have a spastic elbow and to stay away from it. 

There was a horse that had a nasty habit or turning her hind end to me and kicking out when I tried to catch her. I brought a dressage whip out and when she turned her butt to me, I smacked it as hard as I could. She NEVER showed me her butt again.

If I'm riding a horse with a whip, I won't use it unless it's necessary. I will ask with a squeeze, then tell with a slight kick, and then demand with a swat on the flank and a firm kick.

I taught my horse to side step in hand by standing in front and a little off to the side. I used a whip to tap her sides, and increasingly tapping her harder until she moved away. It only took a few days, and now she side steps like a pro.

While riding a rearing horse, I will wear spurs and use a whip on their flanks, wait for a response and if none is coming, I'll hit him again until they touch down and move forward.

I have never smacked any horse in the face with any object, nor have I ever kicked a horse from the ground. I rarely smack them more than once, put I make the one time count. I will smack strictly to correct an action. 

While taking a jumping lesson, I fell off, got ran over by the horse, and then while the "instructor" and I tried to catch the horse, she just kept running. When the "instructor" finally caught her, she grabbed her whip and beat her across the chest for a solid minute. I was absolutely appalled, and it was TOTALLY unacceptable.

I refuse to use the word "hit" because I do not "hit." My horses love me, and with the exception of one mare, I've had a great relationship with all the horses I've come into contact with. My horses are not head shy, they aren't afraid of my dressage whip, nor are they or our relationship unhealthy in any manner.


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't see the pipe as being abuse. It hurts way less than a whip. And It wasn't like my dad hit it as hard as he could.

Our Pony Club is recognised, however, the person in charge of all the PC's in our area never comes all the way out to check up on ours.

Today, we went trail riding at PC. Dusty was great, and I didn't hit him once. He was a little reluctant to go at times and sometimes tried to go the opposite way that I was turning him.

When stuggling to turn him, an older women who was riding with us said that the previous trainer may have got lazy and rode him one handed a lot. So I used both hands to move the raigns to the left, and he turned perfectly. He has a lot of learning to do, he still wants to trot when I want him to walk, wants to be lazy at times and has a pretty bad walk as he is all over the place.

In time he will be good.

So many people were having trouble with their horses, and they just hit them, 90% of the time they hit their horse for no reason, or it was WAY too hard.

I don't understand one thing. As soon as Dusty begins to trot I bounce so high off the saddle, that even when standing up in my stirrups, my feet slip out from a stirrup. It's hard to explain...


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Do you know how to post the trot?


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

No. What's that?


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

A rising trot? It may be called something different in Australia, but it's when you lift your self out of the saddle at the trot and sit back down while keeping with the rythm of the horse...... Oh wow it's an easy thing to do but it's really hard to explain! Here's a video:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Riding one handed isn't lazy :]

I ride one handed on the trails all the time. My horse neck reins, so it isn't really any different from riding him two handed!


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

bsdhorse said:


> When stuggling to turn him, an older women who was riding with us said that the previous trainer may have got lazy and rode him one handed a lot.


Riding one handed is not lazy if they rode him with a curb bit. If you ride with a curb bit, you're supposed to ride one handed and with loose contact, not with two hands. Do you ride him with a snaffle or a curb?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I ride one handed in a snaffle. Nothing wrong with it. Same thing as if I was in a curb, my horse responds to the rein pressure on his neck and my seat and legs.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

if you plan on doing anything from the saddle like rope or use a whip. you have to ride one handed.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I use a whip :]


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry, that could be misconstrued. Stockwhip, not whip to whip my horse!


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

that is the type of whip I was thinking about. I should have stated that too. thanks Wild_Spot


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## bsdhorse (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry guys, I didn't mean that riding one handed was lazy. But in the case of the person who trained Dusty, it was.

Dusty was trained up to be sold to a beginner. I would have thought the trainer would have put more effort in. But after all, he is into camp drafting and stuff, so he is probably used to riding one handed while holding a rope.


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