# Jumper doing dressage



## Vicizmax (Aug 11, 2008)

So maybe some of you remember me posting a similar post before?

But anyways, I have a show jumping horse, who is 13 years old, and before I got him (a year ago) he has only done show jumping all his life.
He's got both good jumping and dressage blood in him, but jumping was his strong side.

However, to help me with jumping, and because I don't do jumping as intensely as his previous owners (they would jump approximately 3 times a week, and if not, it wouldn't be serious dressage riding but "jumping-dressage" type of riding), I have been working on the dressage a lot !

He is very very stiff on his left side. Always has been, and it's been much much much worse..! It's waaaay better now. Some people tell me he's very stiff, but to me, he's like an elastic to pull on compared to before..!
But of course still stiff.

Anyways, this is the video from February 2010 (in this video, he is already much better than when I got him, but I'm not comparing to when I got him now, I'm going to compare from this video):
Topper: Dressur 20-02-2010 - HesteGalleri.dk


..And this is now:






You can critique rider (me) too if you wish, I don't mind - in fact, I'd like that! But I'd be most happy if you could focus on the horse...
Remember, this is a jumping horse with very little dressage experience.. So I'd like to hear what you think and if he has some potential 

Thanks!


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## olliexmas (Nov 14, 2010)

I think he looks fantastic! Hes adorable (-:


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## xoSonnyLove1234 (May 31, 2009)

This is what i see, yet i know little about dressage. Your horse's head seems unsteady through most of the video and you keep pulling on his head a lot. Allow him to relax a little with his head.
Also, i see that his circles are sometimes choppy and/or not flowy and smooth like. I would suggest really pushing with your inside leg, almost like you are hugging your horse with your legs.
Personally i think he has potential to be a good dressage horse. Just needs work. (i couldnt see the first video btw)
Now for you, it seems like your posting through you stirrups, not your leg. I would suggest putting your stirrups up one hole and really push your heel down while gripping with your knees and thys (sp?). Also, try and steady your hands. They seem like they are moving often and you are just playing with your horse's face. Dont just set your horse's head with your hands, but with your legs as well.
I think you two make a great pair and could do well in dressage with a little more work. Good luck! BTW, your horse is just simply gorgeous. Love him


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## olliexmas (Nov 14, 2010)

p.s 
I might be wrong but it looks like your pulling on his head a little. Then again, I know nothing about Dressage (-:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Some improvement.

Hands are still too rough and you need to allow the aids to come through before deciding that you are going to intervene and just pull the horse into a halt. So what if a couple extra steps occur. Also if the head gots up it means you are not effective in your seat aids in maintaining the horse's body position.

The biggest fault I can see in your position is that you neither do a full up in your posting nor actually do a full sit into the saddle and as a result there is no connection of your seat to the horse and you try to compensate by too much manipulation with the hands/reins.


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## mollybolly (May 26, 2010)

ok so what I see is that all you are doing is pulling on his head and getting a false headset. He is to far behind the verticle, if he is correctly put on the bit his head will be a vertical line like "l" instead of sucking his head into his chest. you need to push him out and let him take the reins out instead of just pulling and forcing him into a false headset. you and him do look great together tho and he seems to have a talen for dressage. I would recommend getting a dressage instructor to help you, and if you have one i would get a different one. hope i helped


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## Vicizmax (Aug 11, 2008)

Firstly, thanks everyone!  There's some things I read which I didn't realize before, and do now, and will improve on  And of course thank you for the comments too ;D

The reason the pulling in the head, is firstly he himself sometimes plays with the bit - and the reason for that, I know, is because I am also pulling on the reins. It's like I said, he's very stiff, so I have to bend him in, bend him outwards all the time, and sometimes he wont, and sometimes he does, but then his shoulders don't follow. Especially on the left side :/ I try using my legs and thighs, but no, my legs are not strong.. xD At least they are not strong enough for him - you really need legs to ride this guy! But yea, I try..
If I sit completely still with the reins and dont move my fingers, he will simply _take_ the left rein, and turn his head to the right! So when going around a corner to the left, he will push his left shoulder inwards and bend to the right..! Without me disturbing him in the mouth, and using my whole left leg to put that shoulder back in!
He's really hard to ride.. It looks easier than it is. But also, I had a new bit on him which is a little stronger, so I didn't dare make bigger movements with the reins, to bend him, as I would usually do instead of irritating small ones - I was a little scared to do too much since I'm not used to riding with a harder bit.

As to the choppy circles - yes, I know.. xD But we're working on it. It's because I'm supporting him on the outside rein, and then he starts leaning into it, thus pushing his outside shoulder out, instead of keeping it in. And the way I keep it in, is to support even more on the outside rein and turn him inwards using the outside rein and outside leg - But then the circles dont become smooth as he kind of "chops" inwards.. 

I've done a lot of work where I dont use the reins a lot, and have them loose, just to calm him down and make him relaxed - So he's not always too happy when I suddenly have shorter reins on him and where he has to actually work.

But currently, my biggest project with him is keeping him relaxed, having those shoulders where they should be, and having his head down - no matter if his neck/head are positioned right, I dont care, as long as he doesn't take it up. That will come later, with time. 

mollybolly: Yes I do have a trainer, and he's very good - my horse would not look like this if it wasn't for him, he'd be constantly stressed, running away from me, with his head up to the sky and mouth as hard as stone :/


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## mollybolly (May 26, 2010)

ok but being behind the vertical like i saw in most of the video is worse then his head being up in the air because hes not using his body correctly and its all false. I'm just saying from what I see in the video


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Vicizmax said:


> The reason the pulling in the head, is firstly he himself sometimes plays with the bit - and the reason for that, I know, is because I am also pulling on the reins. It's like I said, he's very stiff, so I have to bend him in, bend him outwards all the time, and sometimes he wont, and sometimes he does, but then his shoulders don't follow. Especially on the left side :/ I try using my legs and thighs, but no, my legs are not strong.. xD At least they are not strong enough for him - you really need legs to ride this guy! But yea, I try..
> If I sit completely still with the reins and dont move my fingers, he will simply _take_ the left rein, and turn his head to the right! So when going around a corner to the left, he will push his left shoulder inwards and bend to the right..! Without me disturbing him in the mouth, and using my whole left leg to put that shoulder back in!


Don't make excuses.

There is NEVER a good reason to "disturbing the horse in the mouth". That just shows that you haven't an understanding of how dressage works. As I said part ( a good big part) of your problem is in your seat and although he appears to be engaged enough he is holding back and you can't feel it. You can't fix his problems with rough hands but by driving more forward so he is *STRAIGHT* and not evading with one hind leg to the point that the shoulders/head/neck is out of wack. Do more lateral work to straighten him out.



> But currently, my biggest project with him is keeping him relaxed, having those shoulders where they should be, and having his head down - no matter if his neck/head are positioned right, I dont care, as long as he doesn't take it up. That will come later, with time.


Read above, he needs ti be straight and that comes from the hind...NOT the holding of reins to try to straighten him.


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## Vicizmax (Aug 11, 2008)

I understand what you mean, but you can't ride a horse without using reins either - at least not this horse. I have tried other methods, and by bending him through the reins (_and_ using leg) has worked best in making him more elastic and light on the bit, instead of just either having his head completely up and having no contact, and having him pull me down (or to the left).
He has to be able to bend to both sides through the neck and body, and that wont come _just_ through leg. He has to follow my hand and accept. I'm not trying so much to straighten him out, as to keep his shoulders in place.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm just not completely understanding you, because it's not like I'm pulling him in the mouth the whole time, and thus forcing him to go down! Trust me, if he didn't want to go down, he wouldn't. But there are moments, where I bend him, where he takes his head up because he is stiff and it's unpleasant for him, but he's going to have to bend if that stiffness is ever going to go away. I just have to wait patiently and squeeze until he has accepted it again. And I do drive him forward when I feel he slowing down, to get those back legs under him. But when he starts _taking_ the bit, and I really mean it, he pretty such takes hold of it and pulls, I _have_ to move my fingers and wrists so get him loose again, otherwise he will just have a hard mouth, and there would not be any elastic contact.

Also, I have trouble getting him to put weight on the right rein, as I have said before. And this is something i have a big problem with, because if I try having equal contact on the reins, he will just pull on the left one and make the right one completely loose. And if I support the right one, he will just take the left one even more, and turn his head to the right.
Ah it's really hard to explain this :/ Perhaps I'll film my next dressage lesson, so you can see what I do with my trainer.

As for the seat, how would you suggest I improve that? I understand what you mean, and therefore would really like to hear your suggestion


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Very nice horse! A pleasure to watch and I can see you have been working hard with him!

It is hard to tell because most of the time the video is from the side, but it looks like he might be tilting his head to the side. This could be why you are feeling the resistance to the left. 

Do not worry about being slightly behind the vertical right now, it is only because he is fighting you and trying to avoid the contact. 

i think it will get better as his back & neck muscles get stronger. I don't think a stronger bit is the answer, but rather do more transistions using your seat more than your hands. You must keep this horse busy to stop him from fighting you. Try more lateral movements, my favorite is a spiral in & out and 10 meter half-circles for change of direction. Build up to shoulder-in as soon as possible.

The lateral movements will help him to hold his frame. You do not want to get into a habit of fighting him for his head every ride! Ask nice then demand! It is not your job to hold up his head

He is a bit too much on the forehand, which is why he is leaning on you. Try some walk to canter work to help him use his back end more. 

You two make a lovely pair & he has a lot of potential once you get him to work with you instead of against you! 

I did not see the first video, but the second shows you are on the right tract and you look to be a very capable rider!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Watched it again & noticed something else, your stirrups are too short putting you in a chair seat & not allowing you to sit deep. Try bringing you legs back farther & longer will help the horse to work off his back. Also counter-canter on right lead will strengthen the left side. You may have to counter canter for two weeks until he has more strength.

He has big gaits but you seem very able to ride them! Keep up the good work & listen to your instructor, it takes time to develope the muscles correctly so the horse can carry himself in the right frame.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

I do not have any experience in actual dressage, so I will leave that up to others. But I wanted to say I love your horse, and think he is a beautiful mover!


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## equinesalways (Jan 5, 2010)

This horse is a very nice horse with above average movement. I hesitate to post a critique because the ones that have been posted have not been well-received. I hope you will read this with an open mind. This is backwards riding aka riding front to back vs. riding back to front. You are blocking this horse, who's back is naturally swingy, from coming through with your pulling/holding hands. The reason he tenses up when you shorten the reins is because you are stop allowing him to go over his back and stop the energy at the base of the neck. That is why his head is all over the place, because the energy from the hind end is not coming though and going all the way to the bit.

You have enough forward. You need to let him out and ride him to out the bit, allowing him to stretch into your hand. Try to keep your hands down, keeping the straight line from elbow to bit, and together. Put your elbows at your sides and try to keep them glued to your hip. When you move your hands apart and raise your arms away from your torso, you loose your position and end up getting handsy. There is too much tension in your forearms which is causing your wrists to break over. Your forearm should only be thought of as an extension of the rein and you ride from your elbows. The forearm belongs to the horse. Any action on the horse's mouth should be made from the elbow or flexing of the seat in a half halt not the hand.

Squeeze your shoulder blades together to give you a stronger position with your body. If you have to make an adjustment, do it just for a moment and then put your hands back to that neutral position. He is coming behind the bit because he is trying to avoid punishing hands thus dropping the contact/bit. It is not the feeling of "give that you want that will connect him through his body. It's only shorting the neck and causing him to break his neck at the 3rd vertebra.

You said he was previously a jumper which is hard on the body and he's at an age now that arthritis may be setting in. You say he is stiff left. That is because he is not stepping through well with his left hind leg. When he goes right, he is throws his haunches out, which causes the same thing to happen going the other direction. He is not stepping through with the left hind. You can see his obvious avoidance to step under when you change directions and also in the one halt. I would start doing some diagnostic work to find out if he is 100% comfortable in the work you are asking him to do.


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## haleylvsshammy (Jun 29, 2010)

Vicizmax said:


> I understand what you mean, but you can't ride a horse without using reins either - at least not this horse.


Well you have something to work towards. I can stop my horse without using ANY rein. I can also circle him and cut across the arena without any rein. It takes a LOT of leg, leg that I'm still trying to build up (and I'm with you, it is HARD!). Think about relaxing when you want a downward transition, not about pulling back. I had a trainer tell me about "energy levels" and it really helped. When you try to calm your "energy level" the horse feels it, and in response, slows down. I think that he will be a better horse when you start riding with more leg and less rein. It will take time, and you're working towards it. Good luck!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Hands are still too rough and you need to allow the aids to come through before deciding that you are going to intervene and just pull the horse into a halt. So what if a couple extra steps occur. *Also if the head gots up it means you are not effective in your seat aids in maintaining the horse's body position.
> *


I agree completely with Spyder - you are riding all hands, you are riding his face first instead of his hind end. Seat Into Legs Into Hands To Soften - go back to the Training Scale.

My post is pretty much going to repeat pretty much what Spyder has been saying - you must learn to ride seat first, hands last.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Using your seat and legs is what you work towards in dressage; it's the basis of all dressage. My OTTB is very goey and was messed up after being taught beautifully, but I can ride her without using the reins to communicate anything. I can ask for a sidepass, transitions, halts, turns, half-passes, lead changes, changes of direction, and changes in speed from her using just my legs and seat. She was messed up after getting in the wrong hands enough that i still am working hard with her to not brace against the bit like she's grown accustomed to, but she is a good dressage example because she can be ridden with my seat. When I ask for a turn I don't squeeze any rein, when I ask for a more energetic trot she doesn't get more rein; she is controlled by my seat, and that is what will help her become a good dressage horse in the future. Any top level dressage rider and horse should be able to perform a ride bridleless, and that goes for reining, Western Pleasure, Country English Pleasure, anything. The best do not need reins, and we strive to replicate their results without realizing the technique behind them!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think Equinesalways had the very best description of the problem and best suggestions for you to work toward.
I might try doing some work at the walk that will encourage bending; circles, circles counterbent, squares, transitions and work on encouraging him to stretch down.
I can see that he is a hard horse to ride. Someone said to lengthen your stirrups. UH oh, no, if anythingm shorten so that you can post over yourself. You are posting behind him a bit, kind of "waterskiing" . I can imagine how hard he is to ride with his one sided ness and his very forward movement. He is just running away from the bit and from the stress that anyone can see on YOUR face. I would look for ways to making the experience in dressage to be mentally engaging and fun for both of you. Otherwise, just do what he loves; jumping.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

OP - take your bridle, put it on the floor and with you bare foot, stand on the bit. Now take th e reins in a good contact and start pulling every which way. Now do that for 45 minutes, every day, 3 days a week, for a year. Now can you see where your horse's head flinging and stiffness to the left comes from??

Grab mane with both hands and ride to the contact. Your hands should not move. Dressage is not, has never been and will never be about only the neck and head - it is first and foremost about the body - we ride the body.

Here is a video of a 3 year old stallion doing a demo - notice the riders hands are together, and the horse (surprise!) manages to be round, even in a scary situation.


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## equineeventer3390 (Mar 27, 2009)

Agreed with the others. My trainer periodically throughout my lessons will make me "give" my inside rein up completely. If the horse continues with the bend, I am doing it correctly. If it falls apart when I give my inside rein, I am riding too much with my hands. Dressage comes from the legs and hind end. and yes it is hard. I have a dressage horse that is very very difficult to ride. I used to ride like you, lots of hands, and preventing his natural "swing", my hands would even hurt after lessons. Now that I have learned more dressage and learned the correct way, I need spurs to ride him and my hands are very light. I've now learned that he requies ALOT of leg, even though he is a very hot horse. It is hard so don't try to make excuses, no one is getting on to you about it, simply pointed it out. you can't learn if you don't know what you are doing wrong. It took me over a year to learn to ride my horse. 
When your riding him dressage, and you feel like you have a nice, correct bend, you can do a check. Briefly put your hands forward and give the reins a little, making the reins a little slack. If your horse continues on with the bend or reaches down for that contact again, you are doing it correctly, if he does not keep the bend, you are riding with too much hands and not enough leg.


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

You have recieved many good critiques and I hope you take them into consideration. You seem much too concerned with his front end. I know you say you're bending him, but half the time I do not see proper bending. He is bending his neck, yes, but he is not continuing this bend trough his body and stepping through with his inside leg. Like other have said, you are much to handsy, and as a result you are causing a fake headset and headwagging. The best moments I saw in this video are the ones in which his head goes above the vertical. It is by no means way in the air, it is where his hea should be at his stage in dressage training. In those moments when you seem to forget I be concerned with his head, you are no longer restricting his movement and he is able to really engage his hind end and move through himself. He really does have lovely movement. Ideally, while riding you should be able to completely release your inside rein without your horse falling apart. Remeber this next time you feel yourself wanting to overbend him and play with his head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

Sorry to double post, but I'm on my iPod and it won't let me edit. I just wanted to say two more things. 

One, when you feel him getting stiff, instead of overbending him on a circle which makes it much easier for him drop his shoulder and not properly bend, overbend him down the long side and maintain a straight line. Also another fantastic excercise is spirals. Go on a circle and overbend him slightly. Spiral your circle until it is much smaller then return to normal bending as you leg yield him back out to the larger circle. 

Two, lateral movements are key
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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