# Is she a fewspot Appaloosa?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Short answer - No.

She looks to be possibly varnish and/or snowflake. Hard to tell with just the one picture.


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## petitepyromaniac (Oct 12, 2010)

Good to know! What kind of color is she likely to throw?

Is there a website that can help explain this? I don't care to get deep into genetics, just a general guideline for Appaloosas.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

There is no real guideline for appaloosas. There are so many factors involved it would make your head spin. You would need to know the stallion as well. In the end it would be a crap shoot as to what color. 

In appaloosas, as with anything, if you are looking for a specific color/pattern you will be better off buying a horse already on the ground rather then attempting to breed to get it.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I always thought few spots were grey (white) with a few dark spots, and possibly darkish to darker legs?_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _I always thought few spots were grey (white) with a few dark spots, and possibly darkish to darker legs?_


You are correct.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Not a fewspot.

And even with fewspots, it's difficult to predict (without knowing all the color patterns in their immediate pedigree) which patterns they have a likelihood of producing.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

VelvetsAB said:


> _I always thought few spots were grey (white) with a few dark spots, and possibly darkish to darker legs?_


The correct term is white. Appy white has absolutely nothing to do with grey...


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

*Fewspot*

Here is pic of my bay fewspot filly. 

Some people think fewspot means the appy only has a couple of spot. Fewspot means that the horse inherited the LP gene from both parents. A fewspot requires TWO appy parents with the LP gene. They will always be white in appearance sometimes with color on legs, ears, and in the girth and flank area. There is also the snowcap in which the white is mainly restricted to the back and hindquarters but its too much detail for me to go into right now.
My girl started out with a bit more color on her neck and head and has whitened up quite a bit. Fewspots will always guarentee you an LP gene on any future foals but are known to have vision problems, not all of them. My girl doesn't have the best night vision but is otherwise perfectly fine.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Crossover, it's not just LP. You have to have PATN as well.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

I had a fewspot as well, here's her picture. She was a palomino fewspot. Her legs, throat latch area, and ears were golden and she had golden specks on her neck and flank. Beautiful girl but she was green and I was only 12.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I had never even heard of a fewspot until recently! Didn't know that's what they were called. I rode a leopard appy growing up, but honestly don't know too much about them. They're such a cool breed. 

Sort of off topic, but I was curious how Appaloosa white is different from grey. I always thought 'white' horses were greys. Anyone care to explain this in laymens terms to me?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

It's not progressive. Fewspots are born white, and stay that way. They don't get dappled or fleabitten, and their skin is usually pink or mottled.

Gray horses are born any number of colors depending on the base color genes present: bay, chestnut, tobiano spotted, or even, theoretically, fewspot Appaloosa. But the dark coloration of the coat will gradually be replaced by white hairs (and frequently reintroduced as fleabites) as the horse ages. It's a dominant gene, requiring only one copy to have an effect, while fewspot coloration is indicative of homozygousity (two LP genes).

Grays are FAR more prone to melanoma than other horses, though it is much less aggressive and less likely to be fatal in grays than in other colored horses. Fewspots are more prone to squamous cell carcinoma due to the pink skin around their eyes, gentitals, etc. They are also prone to progressive blindness (from cancer or uveitis, an Appaloosa curse), and have night blindness.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A lot of the white-r appaloosas, the ones that had color that is, is due to varnishing (LP). Varnishing tunrns the hair white on the soft areas and tends to leave color on the hard (legs, nasal bones, etc.), and leaves behind spots that would not otherwise be seen. 

Grey erases everything. The only excepting is blood shoulder type markings. 

Grey on an appaloosa will erase spots where are varnish will leave and/or reveal more spots.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

How cool, I never knew that. Thanks!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Fewspots also frequently have, well, a few spots. :lol:
Or they may have what appear to be reverse socks and blazes. They are prized by Appaloosa breeders due to their homozygosity.

Fewspot (note black legs):





































Appaloosa ("varnish") roans:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Bubba varnish can progress to the point of mimicing few spots and few spots can varnish out to have even less color. You need to put that in there as well. They are not exclusive.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Versus gray horses:










(note dark skin and no variation in coat color)



















Fleabitten:










Young gray:










Appaloosa going gray:


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Crossover, it's not just LP. You have to have PATN as well.


Yes your right, thanks for not letting me oversimplify..  I'm still learning the Appy genes.

Okay, fewspot carries two LP plus a PATN gene. Now there is no way to know for sure of a PATN gene yet, so your best bet is to get a fewspot from two spotted parents (like the filly I posted) or one spotted, one fewspot with spotted parents. 

Now the two LP but no PATN gene is called a snowcap. 

Then of course there is the false fewspot/ snowcap which doesn't have the two LP but can have a sabino gene which gives it the apperance of one. 

Genetics are fun!!!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Crossover said:


> Now the two LP but no PATN gene is called a snowcap.


No, that is not correct.

Think LP = spots/characteristics, and PATN = white.

An LP LP horse would be homozygous for spots/characteristics, but in the absence of PATN would be solid...


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> No, that is not correct.
> 
> Think LP = spots/characteristics, and PATN = white.
> 
> An LP LP horse would be homozygous for spots/characteristics, but in the absence of PATN would be solid...


 

Pretty sure it's the other way around... the reason people breed non characteristic Appy's because they might still have the PATN gene. Of course you'd have to breed them to an Appy that carries the LP gene. My fewspot is LP/LP therefore I'm guarenteed some Appy characteristics in her foals even though I plan to breed her to a Friesian sporthorse without an LP gene.

Ever do invisible notes with lemon juice? Write the note in juice and then after it dries you can't see it. You then place it in front of a lightbulb to heat up and show your note. Well the PATN gene would be the lemon juice. The horse may have the PATN gene but without the LP (lightbulb) it won't show up. Might not be the best analogy but the only one I could come up with right this minute.

NdAppy.. do you agree or am I the one who has it backward?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Crossover said:


> Pretty sure it's the other way around... the reason people breed non characteristic Appy's because they might still have the PATN gene. Of course you'd have to breed them to an Appy that carries the LP gene. My fewspot is LP/LP therefore I'm guarenteed some Appy characteristics in her foals even though I plan to breed her to a Friesian sporthorse without an LP gene.
> 
> Ever do invisible notes with lemon juice? Write the note in juice and then after it dries you can't see it. You then place it in front of a lightbulb to heat up and show your note. Well the PATN gene would be the lemon juice. The horse may have the PATN gene but without the LP (lightbulb) it won't show up. Might not be the best analogy but the only one I could come up with right this minute.
> 
> NdAppy.. do you agree or am I the one who has it backward?


NdAppy only knows what I tell her.
(not really...:lol

Perhaps this will help - LP is an acronym for Leopard Complex, meaning spots and characteristics. PATN is an acronym for pattern, pattern in the case of Appys being some form of white pattern. 

Without PATN you cannot have a white pattern. If the horse is LP there may be spots, but the spots would only be visible if the base color was overriden by white...in other words a spot the same color as the base coat is not a spot visually, so the horse would appear solid...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

All I know is LP has to do with the varnish roaning. 

I'll humbly defer to Face on the Appy LP/PATN Info. I know I am not up to snuff on that and am more than happy to leave that to him.

All I know is that Appy color has an appytude of his own :rofl:


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Perhaps if it were worded differently - remember, I was replying to you post that stated snowcaps do not have PATN which, of course, is not true.

An Appy with no LP will have neither spots, characteristics, or color (although as you indicated if it has PATN it can pass that on).
An Appy with no PATN will have no color.
An Appy with LP and no PATN will usually have ( or develop) characteristics.
Both LP and PATN must be present for color and characteristics - the pattern being determined by the type of PATN and whether the horse is heterozygous or homozygous for LP. If it is **** for LP, in the presence of PATN, it will be a snowcap or fewspot, depending on the type of PATN, although there is some question as to whether a fewspot may just be the full expression of a snowcap. If the horse is heterozygous for LP, the pattern will be varnish roan, blanket, snowflake, or a combination of patterns, depending upon the type(s) of PATN.

It will drive you wacko - the main reason being we are dealing with polygenic characteristics rather than just one gene, and we only have some of the pieces of the puzzle...


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Perhaps if it were worded differently - remember, I was replying to you post that stated snowcaps do not have PATN which, of course, is not true.
> 
> An Appy with no LP will have neither spots, characteristics, or color (although as you indicated if it has PATN it can pass that on).
> An Appy with no PATN will have no color.
> ...


Ah so now I know where NdAppy gets all their info from 

Once again I have to agree and politely disagree. 

I was mistaken on the LP/LP - PATN being a snowcap. My mentor whose raised Appy's for 15yrs explained that this type of horse could be anything from an apparent solid to eventually roaning out white. She reminded me that the leopard/ near leopard gene is called the PATN1 gene. What she also explained is that she believes a snowcap to be a LP/LP -PATN1, therefore incapable of throwing a leopard or near leopard. A snowcap will still have a PATN gene. But again as you say, it is mainly conjecture at this point because of the unknowns of the PATN1/ PATN.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Yeah, I wish they would find all the answers. I bred and raised Appys for 20 years, am getting a bit long in the tooth, and really wish they would find all the pieces of the puzzle in my lifetime so I would know for sure the answers to questions we have all had over the years. I'm not going to hold my breath, though - I wouldn't make a very good Smurf...


ETA: NdAppy is a good Appy resource person in her own right - I was just pulling her string...lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Lol I knew you were Face. I still freely admit that you know way more when it comes to LP/PATN. And thanks.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Yeah, I wish they would find all the answers. I bred and raised Appys for 20 years, am getting a bit long in the tooth, and really wish they would find all the pieces of the puzzle in my lifetime so I would know for sure the answers to questions we have all had over the years. I'm not going to hold my breath, though - I wouldn't make a very good Smurf...
> 
> 
> ETA: NdAppy is a good Appy resource person in her own right - I was just pulling her string...lol


I respect NdAppy's opinions very much... even the ones I don't agree with:lol:

No disrespect intended. I'm still learning about the Appy's myself and am always glad to learn new information. I can be very intense in my opinions and am still learning to tone down and make sure of all my facts.

Its why I found myself an experianced mentor to learn under. We work well together and since we're both interested in Appy's but in different disciplines we don't have to worry about excessive competition. 

I'm actually on the other spectrum. I like having the abiltiy to choose or not choose certain horses to increase my chances of getting the likely color I want but would be completely bummed if they had all the answers. Its the surprise on the other end that peaked my interest in Appy's. My two foals have turned out better than I hoped colorwise (barring the grey gene passing to my colt) and exactly as I hoped in conformation and temperment.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Controversy is part of having Appys - just like Appytude. If it's not controversy about genetics, it's ApHC's registration policies which are destroying the breed, or outcrossing, or something or other...never a dull moment...:lol:


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Controversy is part of having Appys - just like Appytude. If it's not controversy about genetics, it's ApHC's registration policies which are destroying the breed, or outcrossing, or something or other...never a dull moment...:lol:


Ahhh... don't even get me started on the registration. :evil: :lol:


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