# Mules and snaffles OR I know this is HorseForum not MuleForum but...



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Keep at the snaffle. Does the mule move off your leg? I would fix it by asking nicely, pulling the rein directly, and if he doesn't go, stop and outfight him to turn the other way. Generally it ended with me kicking him over the right direction until he moved. Learned this on my anglo arabian who had similar problems. 

But if you are feeling nice you could do a lot of groundwork  pull the rein over the saddle until he gives and moves then release it.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Might try bitting him back to save your arm.










That stubbornness/stiffness you describe...there's a reason that this (^) is marketed as a mule bit....


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Mules ride and train very differently than horses. They are NOT stubborn but they are even more 'creatures of habit' than horses are.

Many mules -- well actually most mules -- do not have real light mouths naturally. They often have a 'deep mouth' which automatically gives you less leverage on their bending and turning. [This means that the corners of their mouth are farther from the end of their nose as opposed to a 'shallow' mouth.] They are not nearly as natural at 'following their nose' if they have not been taught to. When we raised mules, I looked for a long time for a Spanish Jack with a very shallow mouth and we raised mules that rode very much more like horses than donkeys.

I have found that the best way to get a 'handle' on a mule is with a bit that has a slight 'gag' action and to use a mouth closer. You can teach easier in the gag and then can switch back to a light curb later. I have even used a gag with a thin rope headstall. If they learn to lug or ignore a snaffle, they will continue to ride poorly in one. They do not usually lighten up in one. If this mule has always been ridden in a shank bit, it will probably just 'blow off' a snaffle now.

When a mule has not had a background in guiding in circles and figure 8s, you will probably need to teach it with a light rein and reinforcement in the way of tapping on the outside shoulder with a little bat. It will probably blow off your legs, too, if it has not been trained to listen to legs. Mules do not naturally move their shoulders well and are naturally more heavy on their front ends. It is just a part of their straighter shoulders from their donkey heritage. 

Mules are a lot smarter and very different from horses and you have to know how they learn and how to get along with them. They are the Worlds greatest at figuring out how to NOT do something so that they can keep their same routines that they are used to. 

Hope this makes sense to you. They are just so different, that a lot of horse enthusiasts just never learn to appreciate their good qualities. I love them, but a lot of people do not. They are not nearly as 'forgiving' as a horse. They do not 'un-spoil' nearly as easy as a horse. You can make a lot of mistakes with a horse and they are of no consequence. You cannot make very many mistakes with a mule. They are just too smart. Bu there are no better 'trail horses' in the World than a good, solid mule. A good one will take care of their rider no matter what and do so into their 30s.

Added -- please do not put a mean or painful bit on this nice mule (like the one shown). Those bits were invented by dummies that were not as smart as the mule they were trying to ride. A good trail mule does not deserve that. First, to train a mule -- you have to be smarter than the mule. Many people are not. You cannot hurt him enough to make him into a horse. He has a donkey parent -- like it or not -- that is what makes him a mule and makes him a 'thinker'.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Might try bitting him back to save your arm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh good lord. Please be kidding. Please?

That is a disgusting, barbaric bit. The only reason it exists is because people can't be bothered to learn where there are holes in the equine's training, and decide that a chainsaw link bit *must* be the only option. 
Y'know, cause mules have to be muscled around - why not use a chainsaw link bit on a stubborn mule
*not saying the above is your opinion, but that's the reasoning behind such a harsh bit. Control through pain.

Unless you're being facetious in your suggestion - in which case... Well, disregard my harsh opinion, and I will try to remove my foot rom my mouth. 
Point is: I do not think this type of bit should ever see the inside of an equine's mouth. Ever. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh, I'm not advocating using it, I'm just pointing out that it's called a mule bit, because obviously the OP's problem is a common one....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't understand the point of your post then, Bubba13. I don't understand the point of posting a facetious reply that most would take as serious advice, ie: "here, use this bit, it will solve your problem." I know CW would look for other options, but some would not. Some people would take that as a serious suggestion - oh, a simple solution! No training necessary! 

Anyways, now that its clear that the bit advice wasn't a serious one, I can slip back into my hiatus. 
Just about gave me a coronary, someone actually suggesting a mule bit. 
Man, I gotta stop following links!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I didn't suggest it at all. Read back on what I wrote. I (seriously) suggested bitting him back--easier to let him fight himself while he learns to give to pressure than fight you. And then I said that (perceived) mule stubbornness is a common issue, and that people commonly resort to ultra-harsh bits to win the battle.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

That may be your intended message, but I for one read it as "oh, bit him up with a harsh bit (like this one below) and save your arms. (Ie. He will figure out darn quick its less painful to not fight the bit.) There's a good reason its called a mule bit - its a very common problem solved by this bit."
In linking to a picture of a bit, with a vague, but suggestive post that the bit might be the key - well, I don't know what else is supposed to be taken from that type of post, except perhaps picking up on a faint hint of sarcasm?
I'm not the only one who read it that way, I can tell you that much. 

Anyways, Cinny, you will get lots of helpful suggestions here - I'm sure you know mine.  You are of course welcome to PM me (I get an email notification and can check back and reply) but I think I had better stop mucking up your thread 

Good luck!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, I'm sorry you misinterpreted, then. They were two separate ideas. If you're unfamiliar with the terminology, you could have asked. This is "bitting back" a horse:


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Checking this mule around with a side rein is not going to help him unless you interact with him to teach him to actually 'follow his nose'. He already 'rubber necks' according to the original post. He needs to be taught to move his shoulders -- which is a bit tougher to teach any mule but much tougher to teach an older mule that has been ridden for years without being taught to move his shoulders.

[I had always seen 'bitting back' referred to when a horse is bitted back with both reins to teach lateral flexion.]


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How do you bit back with both reins to teach lateral flexion...or do you mean vertical flexion? I can't picture this.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with Cherie, this mule just needs more training, not a stronger bit. We've used mules my entire life and never had anything more than a regular loose ring snaffle on any of them and never had a problem because my Dad knows how to train them and train them well (I don't though LOL). It's just the training methods that are completely different, like Cherie said and you can never just manhandle a mule like you can a horse.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks for all of the advice. I will keep being patient with him, he is such a doll! He has had some training on moving off of legs and his owner says he's easier to steer with legs than bridle, I just haven't quite figured out what he has been trained in regard to leg pressure because he sure doesn't move off of them the way Cinny does, LOL. I think next time I get on I will get on bareback with my training halter (don't worry he has great stop with it) and just walk him around and try doing different things with my legs and taking note of the "cause and effect" that happens with different leg pressures in different places. Maybe I'll find the missing link in there if I stop expecting a certain result and just pay attention to what the result with HIM actually is.

I have learned a few things about him though. He really likes when you post his trot and will stretch and lengthen and actually behave like he enjoys trotting. Don't post and he tires out more quickly and acts like it's the worst thing in the world to do. He is lazy and very good at the whole "getting out of doing something" game. And he loves loves loves a proper grooming, especially the massage of a good rubber curry.

Over all, he is a very sweet guy and I adore him. Oh, and he also looks kinda cute in Dressage tack, LOL!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I guess you know we need picture of the good mule.

I need to warn you --- They are habit forming.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I'll get some pics or maybe even vid of him. A lot of people at the stable don't like him (he's the only mule boarded there) because he's loud and he gets cranky when he doesn't get out. I see people jump through the roof when he unexpectedly brays but I think that's mostly because the BO's Bloodhound pup always joins in and makes it worse (secretly smile at this every time). As you guess, most boarders don't like the BO's new bloodhound either ha ha.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

they're the same as horses in that they learn from negative reinforcement. they're just better at it - if you get it wrong they'll get worse faster than a horse will but if you get it right they'll probably get better faster than a horse will.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

From my limited knowledge of mules I think he would learn easier if you made steering a task with obstacles to manuever or something like that. Something that makes sense to him & he has to be guided by you. 
Right now he may not see the point in going in circles.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> Keep at the snaffle. Does the mule move off your leg? I would fix it by asking nicely, pulling the rein directly, and *if he doesn't go, stop and outfight him to turn the other way*. Generally it ended with me kicking him over the right direction until he moved. Learned this on my anglo arabian who had similar problems.
> 
> .


If you try to outfight a mule you WILL end up hurt. Mules are not horses and can't be treated as such. I have very little experience with mules but I've been around them enough to know they think different than horses and that must be taken into account.

I would recommend that you find a mule forum and post your question there and get a more mule specific response.

Cherie also had excellent advice. As usual.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I'll get some pics or maybe even vid of him. A lot of people at the stable don't like him (he's the only mule boarded there) because he's loud and he gets cranky when he doesn't get out. I see people jump through the roof when he unexpectedly brays but I think that's mostly because the BO's Bloodhound pup always joins in and makes it worse (secretly smile at this every time). As you guess, most boarders don't like the BO's new bloodhound either ha ha.


Wow a mule AND a bloodhound! That's pretty ******* even for Nebraska! Does the BO wear overalls and answer to Billybob?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Gee! I thought we had the corner on '*******' down here. Does BillyBob have a Bubba? I even have a horse named Bubba. Does that count? 

My husband and son both wear bib overalls and I bought each a pair of insulated ones yesterday on sale at the Farm Store. I'm getting my feelings hurt now.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

BO doesn't wear overalls, but he answers to Chuck. Our stable is full of hillybilly named horses though... Bubba, Shane, Bo, Ugly, Sis, Podunk, Fletch, Stupid to name a few.... 

Could be worse, my old stable in CA had horses with just plain weird names and I'd rather have the hillybilly names than the stupid/weird ones. Gummy Bear, Noodles, Lala.... I think the breeders in South CA have been drinking too many Mojitos or something.


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