# My horses were sold without my knowledge



## bunnyluv

TLDR: My leased out horses were sold at county auction when they were found roaming loose and an owner couldn't be found. I want one of those horses back. 

The details. I leased out two horses to a girl who lives in the county next to me. She signed a contract and I delivered them myself, with the help of my boyfriend. That was in October. By February, I could not get in contact with the girl, so I decided to go investigate. My horses were not there. Hadn't been in what looked to be a long time. Great. I immediately called the county sheriff and reported them stolen. After a few days of investigation, they located both horses. They had been found roaming near a busy road and taken in. After a month of nobody claiming them, they were sold at auction. Where was the lessee during all this? Nobody knows. 

Now my horses belong to someone else. Legally. Sold without my knowledge, let alone my consent. The only way, to my knowledge, to get them back, is to buy them. The morgan mare in particular must be returned to my family, somehow. But if the new owner isn't willing to sell, are there any legal paths I can take here to get my mare back? I have plenty of evidence that she was mine and was leased out. I have a witness, contracts, and fb messages between myself and the girl. The girl who, by the way, claims she still has them, and even sent me pics of "them". Help!


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## HombresArablegacy

You need a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bedhead

Stolen property has to be returned to the original owner iirc, doesn't matter if the new owner thought they bought the horse outright. It sucks for them, but those are your horses. lawyer up.


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## churumbeque

They were not stolen they were abandoned and unclaimed. My bet is you are out of luck. You could sue the person you leased hem to for the value.


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## beau159

Yeah that's a sticky situation. It's going to depend on your state laws. 

I'd consult with a lawyer. 

If you cannot buy your horses back from the new owner (you might not be able to, if they were considered abandoned as churumbeque said), but you can always go after the leasee for the cost of replacing said horse(s) or the value of the horses. 

I don't ever plan on leasing my horses, but if I would ever do so for some reason, I'd for sure make monthly visits to the horses. Just so things like this don't happen. How unfortunate.


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## PaintHorseMares

Sadly, this is why a lot of people only do on site leases. This type of situation is a real PITA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux

I preface this with I am not a lawyer:

If you buy stolen goods from a thief (for example), you are not entitled to keep it -- the property must be returned to the person who truly owns it as the thief cannot sell something to which he/she does not have legitimate title in an attempt of making an illegal deal (the theft) legal by selling the stolen goods.

However, your situation is different from the above mostly because of the fact your horses were 'abandoned' in that they were found wandering. There is law in place in most areas that deals with that which, as you found out, is an abandoned animal is sold at auction and that action is then classified as a legal deal. Most municipalities/counties are required to advertise or take some steps of some sort to find out who the owner is (If the owner is found, by the way, there probably would have been some sort of fine or repayment of costs incurred in their keeping) -- what those steps are would be outlined in their bylaw(s). 

My thoughts are that the best way to get them back is to buy them back assuming the people will sell them; you need to go after the girl for costs incurred; you really need to help of a lawyer to walk you through this as it can get tricky.


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## Saddlebag

Ah, the joys of letting a lease horse go off property. Seems to backfire 99% of the time.


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## boots

A brand registry would have prevented this. 

Too late to help the OP, but for anyone else who wants that added protection, whether leasing, selling, or just not wanting to get ripped off...


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## MyBoySi

It annoys me when people who lease off site ruin it for everyone else. I have two horses on lease, I will have them both until the day they die. I'm responsible about it and neither owner has been out to see them for years and they trust me fully to care for them. Irresponsible leasers just irk me because some of us take it pretty seriously. 

I would lawyer up. Sounds as though you'll need it.


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## bunnyluv

Update 

I talked to a lawyer. He pretty much said what I expected and what many of you expected, that the only thing I can do is buy her back, and sue the girl that leased her. 

After going through two people, which took some time to get a hold of, I was able to talk to the new owner last night. He didn't really say that he wouldn't sell her, but also didn't say that he would. He gave the horse to his daughter, and I suppose he will talk with her about it. I told him Bunny's background, how we had had her for 18 years, since she was a baby. He seemed to think that the three months of money and riding that he had in her already was a lot, lol. Anyway, I was respectful and to the point. I offered to pay him double what he had spent on her, which he said was around $1000. He seemed to consider it, but as of right now, I don't know what he will do. I will give him some time, probably a week, so as not to make him feel pressured or harassed. All I can do now is wait.


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## KsKatt

Wow, this really stinks. Another reason to like animals more than people.:icon_rolleyes:
How far away do these people live? If they do refuse to sell, would they be willing to stay in touch, facebook, anything? If they should decide to sell her in the future, ask if you could get first call. Is this their only, first horse? There are girls who decide horses really aren't their "thing" I don't understand that thinking, but it does happen. 
Just the more you can get to know about them, the better. 
Please do keep us informed, we will be wondering what happens.


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## ShirtHotTeez

Good luck. I hope the guy does the decent thing.


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## bunnyluv

He seemed to think we didn't care about her if we leased her out, to people who weren't going to take good care of her. That's when I explained her history and how much we love her. He didn't have anything to say to that, so I guess it was agreement that we do care about her. 

The daughter he gave her to just had a baby, and also, they are boarding Bunny, which is why he has so much money in her for three months of ownership. I'm hoping these things will work in my favor for getting her back. I plan to call him again tomorrow to ask. It would be great if I could talk to the daughter, since this is no child but an adult, and probably the one I most need to talk to.


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## bunnyluv

They live in the county next to me. If I can't get her back I will definitely ask to keep in touch, or at least have first call if he ever decides to sell her.


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## natisha

This seems so wrong. Technically he bought stolen property. Why should it matter if it was a horse? If someone buys a stolen car do they get to keep it?

You should get her back & HE should sue the person who sold to him.

I wouldn't offer a slim dime but I'd tell him I'll take it to Court, prove I owned it & get my horse back.


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## natisha

bunnyluv said:


> They live in the county next to me. If I can't get her back I will definitely ask to keep in touch, or at least have first call if he ever decides to sell her.


He has no right to keep her! Buyer beware.


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## Speed Racer

She'd have to take him to court, Natisha. 

So very few horses are registered in their owner's name, so it's not really comparable to a stolen car. If someone steals your car, it's at least registered to you and you have proof. 

Without proof she owns the horses it's a he said-she said kind of thing, unfortunately. A copy of the lease agreement would be helpful, but since the horses were found running loose and nobody claimed them, it's going to be difficult to get a judge to see it her way.


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## bunnyluv

It is a very messed up situation. Technically, he can't sue the people that sold her at auction, because it was actually legal. The irresponsible person I leased them to abandoned them, and the county followed Alabama laws in dealing with the horses. This guy is the legal owner now, as jacked up as that is. Legal owner, but not the rightful owner. I had no clue to look for the horses, as the girl assures me to this day that they are with her. She is absolutely at fault, and all I can do is sue her. Unfortunately, that won't get my horse back. ?


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## bunnyluv

I actually do have papers for the Morgan mare. I can absolutely prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she is my horse.


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## natisha

bunnyluv said:


> I actually do have papers for the Morgan mare. I can absolutely prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she is my horse.


Is that the horse the guy has? If so tell him you have the papers & see what he says.


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## natisha

bunnyluv said:


> It is a very messed up situation. Technically, he can't sue the people that sold her at auction, because it was actually legal. The irresponsible person I leased them to abandoned them, and the county followed Alabama laws in dealing with the horses. This guy is the legal owner now, as jacked up as that is. Legal owner, but not the rightful owner. I had no clue to look for the horses, as the girl assures me to this day that they are with her. She is absolutely at fault, and all I can do is sue her. Unfortunately, that won't get my horse back. ?


Have you gone to her house & confronted her with the truth?


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## natisha

Speed Racer said:


> She'd have to take him to court, Natisha.
> 
> So very few horses are registered in their owner's name, so it's not really comparable to a stolen car. If someone steals your car, it's at least registered to you and you have proof.
> 
> Without proof she owns the horses it's a he said-she said kind of thing, unfortunately. A copy of the lease agreement would be helpful, but since the horses were found running loose and nobody claimed them, it's going to be difficult to get a judge to see it her way.


I suppose you're right but maybe because they were a lease in another county that could explain why she didn't claim them, because she didn't know they were missing.


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## JulieG

I can't imagine someone coming to me with all of this and me NOT giving them back their horse!

Have you heard from him or his daughter at all? Sounds expensive for them or board a horse with her just having had a baby. Maybe offer to lease her to them once she's ready to start riding?


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## bunnyluv

I've been hesitant to tell him she's a registered Morgan. If he feels like he has a valuable horse he may not let go of her, or make me pay more. If I have to tell him I will, but until then I can just prove in other ways, like the lease agreement and maybe some family photos. I won't be deceitful, if he asks if she's registered I'll tell him, but I'd rather not give him any reason to want to keep her.


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## bunnyluv

natisha said:


> bunnyluv said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a very messed up situation. Technically, he can't sue the people that sold her at auction, because it was actually legal. The irresponsible person I leased them to abandoned them, and the county followed Alabama laws in dealing with the horses. This guy is the legal owner now, as jacked up as that is. Legal owner, but not the rightful owner. I had no clue to look for the horses, as the girl assures me to this day that they are with her. She is absolutely at fault, and all I can do is sue her. Unfortunately, that won't get my horse back. ?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you gone to her house & confronted her with the truth?
Click to expand...


I have not told the girl that I know the truth. I'd really love to know why she abandoned them and didn't tell me anything about it, but then again, it would probably just be another lie.


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## bunnyluv

JulieG said:


> I can't imagine someone coming to me with all of this and me NOT giving them back their horse!
> 
> Have you heard from him or his daughter at all? Sounds expensive for them or board a horse with her just having had a baby. Maybe offer to lease her to them once she's ready to start riding?



I haven't heard from them, but it's been a week, so I'll call again after work today. I know from experience that if you have a newborn you have no time for a horse. I'm really hoping they will do the right thing.


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## Saddlebag

Don't put pressure on this guy. He's heard your story and has either dismissed it or is waiting for the daughter to decide. Pi$$ him off and he'll price the horse over the moon just to get rid of you. He is under no obligation to talk to you.


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## bunnyluv

Saddlebag said:


> Don't put pressure on this guy. He's heard your story and has either dismissed it or is waiting for the daughter to decide. Pi$$ him off and he'll price the horse over the moon just to get rid of you. He is under no obligation to talk to you.



I need to try at least once more. His daughter was actually having her baby last time I called. Convenient, perhaps, lol. But I've creeped on fb and found it to be true. Maybe if I call at a less intense time I'll have better luck. I need to try to talk to her, since it's apparently her horse. Also, the man already thinks I don't really care about the horse. If he only gets the one call from me he may assume himself right and never call me back. I've really got nothing to lose here. If I **** him off I'm just as well off then as I am now.


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## Little Jane

Oh my word, this is heart-wrenching! Please keep us posted!


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## KigerQueen

go to the police and say that he is in the possession of stolen property and if they say he obtained her legally say that they were stolen and abandoned and you had no idea. show the papers you have and all the proof that you have!


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## bunnyluv

Yesterday I called the man again. He was nice, he seems like he will work with me if his daughter is OK with it. But, he hasn't had a good chance to talk to her about it. The baby was early, so it's in the ICU, and she has to have surgery. He said they could be there another month. It's a rough time for them, and I told him that I would just wait for things to settle down, and asked if he would call me whenever the time is good for them. I told him that I didn't want to crowd them and that I hoped everything worked out ok. He assured me earnestly that he would call, and said that he had kept my number from the first time I called. All I can do now is wait. 

As for legal moves, the Sheriff knows the situation. They said she's legally his, and all we can do is sue the girl I leased to. The lawyer I called said the same thing. I really think Alabama needs a new law about the recovery of lost horses sold at auction, concerning what should happen if the owner comes along later with proof of ownership wanting their lost horse back. 

I will be sure to keep everyone updated!


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## AlKhamsa

It all depends on your local laws and maybe the county laws of where they were being leased. If you have registration papers, which show the coloring and any markings of such horses, you might have something on your side. I would definitely consult an attorney who is familiar with laws in both places, and has the legal jurisdiction to file a suit for you. This way you kill two birds with one stone. That being said, the law is tricky. If they were deemed abandoned before you called the sheriff to report them, you could have an extensive and expensive legal battle to fight uphill. However the fact remains that you owned them, and leased them to a negligent party. You could end up just getting the value of the horses and the financial loss in the form of money back. Sorry about your situation.


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## AlKhamsa

natisha said:


> Have you gone to her house & confronted her with the truth?


In this case, Natisha, I don't think confronting her outright would be a wise idea. She could flee and then bunnyluv would be without a person to sue. Best to keep things under wrap and let the girl think that bunnyluv is not suspicious/knows what's really up. Atleast until she can be served with the papers of the lawsuit. She's already proven herself untrustworthy by abandoning the horses that weren't even hers.


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## KigerQueen

any updates?


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## bunnyluv

No updates so far. I haven't heard from them and haven't called. I'm leaving the girl I leased them to in the dark, she doesn't need to know I know. In the meantime she can just keep liking my fb posts and telling me all is well, lol. Social media is a great way to keep an eye on her, I don't wanna get deleted from her friends list just yet lol.


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## Rosebit78

Following


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## bunnyluv

Still no change in the situation. I've emailed a law firm that has an equine attorney, but I've gotten no response, and it's been a few days. Time to be a squeaky wheel! I'm starting to think the man who has Bunny isn't going to call me. :-/


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## ShirtHotTeez

bunnyluv said:


> Still no change in the situation. I've emailed a law firm that has an equine attorney, but I've gotten no response, and it's been a few days. Time to be a squeaky wheel! I'm starting to think the man who has Bunny isn't going to call me. :-/


Yes, time to squeak. Good luck.


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## natisha

bunnyluv said:


> Still no change in the situation. I've emailed a law firm that has an equine attorney, but I've gotten no response, and it's been a few days. Time to be a squeaky wheel! I'm starting to think the man who has Bunny isn't going to call me. :-/


Try calling the attorney, some seldom check E-mails.


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## bunnyluv

Update. I called the lawyer Friday. He asked me to send him all my evidence. Her papers, the contracts, the conversations. He said we might get her back, but he didn't say for a fact, naturally. I also called the guy and asked if the daughter had made a decision. He is going to pass along to her an offer, and I told him to tell her we love her (bunny that is, lol) So I hope she does the right thing. But meanwhile I am gathering my evidence to send to the lawyer Monday.
I also had to tell the guy that she's registered. He accused me of lying to him about her age being 18, saying he had her checked and that she was 13 years old. I had to set him straight. 
He also felt the need to tell me that he bought her fair and square. I told him calmly, you bought a stolen horse, sir. Then he tried to tell me that she wasn't stolen, but according to Alabama state law, this situation fits the description of theft by deception (theft by the girl I leased to), so I'm very hopeful about getting bunny back. We are definitely not out of the woods yet though. 
I made sure that I stayed respectful and calm with the man, who seemed like he was ready for a fight. He backed down a bit after I told him Bunny was registered, since I could easily prove I was being honest with him. And really, what would I have to gain with any kind of lie, especially one about her age??? Lol


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## ShirtHotTeez

Good luck, I hope it works out for you, and the guy and his daughter can come out of it ok as well. And that lease girl pays her dues.


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## horseluvr2524

Rough situation :sad:

I really hope you get your girl back. People can so horrible. I don't understand why they didn't take you up on your offer to buy her back and be done with it before they put more money into her and got more attached.
As for your leaser, I don't understand why she didn't send the horses back when she could no longer afford them? And why she is still lying about having them? I mean, what did she think was going to happen when you found out?

I have lost so much faith in people that I want to be that crazy hermit in the mountains somewhere, carrying my rifle around all the time. lol.


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## LoriF

I almost hate to ask this after all you've been through, but do you know for a fact that the horse that this mans daughter has is your Bunny? Have you seen a photo of the horse that they bought at auction? I only ask because the law enforcement or animal control could have gotten it wrong. I really hope that it's your horse that they have. 
Maybe the guy will understand that you care enough after going through all of this. I know that I would be devastated if my horses disappeared.


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## bunnyluv

We are getting her back!!!

For a price. My offer of $2000 was accepted, and me and my dad and sister are on our way to get her now. Hopefully we can get the money back from the irresponsible people I leased them to. 

The thought occurred to me that there could possibly be a mistake in identity, but the story I was told is so specific that it has to be her. She was found with the walking horse mare, Onyx, and they were both together. I went and visited the mare in question, and it was unmistakably her. The only other horse that could possibly be with her would be Bunny, described as a small black pony mare, which is spot on accurate. They were kept together right up until they were sold at the auction to different people.

I will keep updating this post as far as the legal matters. Hopefully nobody else winds up in this situation, but it's a crazy world.


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## Clayton Taffy

Like^^^^


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## egrogan

I really hope it all works out! Let us know when you can


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## bunnyluv

Bunny is home and happy! 

After her long travels and many adventures, Bunny quickly settled into the pasture with her old herd, consisting of my arabian mare and percheron gelding, as if she had never left. After reestablishing her position as queen, she surveyed her kingdom as her loyal subjects followed her everywhere she went. They happily trotted off into the warm night, enjoying a reunion as sweet as the spring air. 

And they all lived happily ever after!


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## ShirtHotTeez

Congratulations, that is awesome. I'm so glad for you :happydance:

Now for the fun part . . . the hunt! Silly cow pays! And the best part is, whatever happens you have already won


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## egrogan

That's so great. I'm really pleased for you it had a happy ending.

And I do hope your lawyer can help you really stick it to that awful leaser. I'm not usually one who screams "sue the heck out of them"- but, that woman really deserves whatever comes her way.


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## gigem88

Very happy for you!!


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## KigerQueen

we need pics of the lucky girl!!!


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## LoriF

Yay!!!!! I'm so happy that you got her back, happy happy ending. I would be sick if my girls disappeared.
How are going to approach the lessee? Are you going to let her know right away or keep her in the dark for now?


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## ShirtHotTeez

Personally, I would make first contact be from a lawyer


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## bunnyluv

Here she is! 

I'm not even talking to the girl I leased her to. I have no idea why what happened happened, but I'm curious what she will do as the end of the lease draws near in October lol. She might try to tell me they died lol.


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## Tazmanian Devil

What a bad situation. Glad to hear you got your horse back. Too bad it cost you.

I'm no lawyer, but a few thoughts came to me while reading through this thread.

First, I agree that this was not a case of "stolen property" as the horses were sold as abandoned property. That, however, would have provided an angle to pursue.

Rules vary by location. There are typically legal notification requirements for abandoned property sold at auction. If those rules and notices were not done 100% proper, a lawyer _may_ have been able to win your claim on that technicality.

Either way, you have a claim against the person who leased the horse. Causing them to become abandoned, not notifying you of them being missing. Apparently deceiving you on their current status... 

Now that you have a concrete damage amount (the $2000 to buy your horse back) it is much easier to make a claim against her. Check with an attorney first, but this may also come under small claims court in your area. (Be warned that even when you win in small claims court, it can be very difficult to collect).


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## JulieG

I'm so happy it worked out for you!!


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## Sunnylucy

Very happy you got Bunny back but I was just wondering, did the other horse get sold to a good home, any idea where she is?


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## stevenson

glad you got her back. That could have been a long drawn out court case and costly in attorney fees


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## bunnyluv

Yes, the other horse, Onyx, got a good home. She now lives a couple miles from where I dropped them off. She was bought by an older woman who has another horse and a pony. She tried to buy both of them, but was outbid on Bunny. Bunny was auctioned first, and Onyx was the one she really wanted, so she made sure to save enough money to at least get Onyx. She offered to give Onyx back to me when she found out what happened, but since i had been going to sell her anyway, I let her keep her. I did take her up on her offer to visit and see Onyx, and meet her, and I feel like she got a really good home.


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## ShirtHotTeez

I must have been a relief to find Onyx got a good home.

Whats news on the claim against the girl who 'lost' them?


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## EquineBovine

That was a nail biting read!
People can be such jerks. Glad the other mare is ok too!


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## Sunnylucy

bunnyluv that is great news! Sounds like Onyx got a good home.


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## LoriF

I would take her to court and sue her for the 2000. dollars even if I didn't think I would get the money back. Only because I wouldn't want her to get off scott free for doing what she did.


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## EquineBovine

Bring on the end of the lease, see what she comes up with haha


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## Kyleen Drake

Dumb newbie question, is there such a thing as a horse getting a tattoo of its owners address on it???? I know there are ID chips you can get at your vets.. 

I'm sorry for your loss... You trusted someone and now have a nightmare to go though to try and get back a beloved family pet. Definitely lawyer! Sooner the better...


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## Chevaux

Kyleen -- you could certainly put a tattoo showing an address. Lip tats are the norm, as far as I know, for horses so would have limited space to work with; there would likely not be any sort of database or registry for addresses (which would weaken search capabiliities); you would have personal information literally walking around; also if the horse was ever sold, or you moved, then the address would technically be outdated.


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## Kyleen Drake

Chevaux said:


> Kyleen -- you could certainly put a tattoo showing an address. Lip tats are the norm, as far as I know, for horses so would have limited space to work with; there would likely not be any sort of database or registry for addresses (which would weaken search capabiliities); you would have personal information literally walking around; also if the horse was ever sold, or you moved, then the address would technically be outdated.


Thanks for responding.. I plan on dying at my new house location. They are going to have to drag me out of there stone-cold. So moving isn't an issue. And I won't ever sell any horse I end up buying. I'm looking to get a life-time companion, once I get to that point.. My family has already agreed to keep the animal if anything ever happens to me. 

As for having the address on it, wouldn't be much different than putting a dog tag collar thing on it, only the horse wouldn't be able to get it off. >.< For me it was just a passing thought for when all else fails.. 

I'm still not sure if the home again chips would be a useful idea for preventing situations like this?

https://public.homeagain.com/

You can change the information in the Home Again chip easily. It's a simple phone call to let them know, "This pet no longer belongs to me, they need to call you and set up the information. You can remove me as this pets owner." Or you can say, "This pet no longer belongs to me but if it's ever lost, stolen, neglected or otherwise I'd be happy to take it back."

Situations like this one are sad.. Heartbreaking. You trust others and end up getting burned. It not only hurts at the lost family companion, but then your faith in others is shook up pretty bad.


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