# New to this, need some help!



## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

Subbing!!! This is also something I'm very interested in.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, good conformation will differ somewhat according to the breed/type of horse, and what type of work he would be used for.

For example, in cutting and other cowboy work, they want a downhill horse, whereas in dressage, you don't want a downhill horse.
which is "good conformation"? . . .depends


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeah, that is how I understand it. I guess I should explain more. What I am looking for is a picture- for exapmle- here is a picture of a horse with great confo for cutting. Here is one who is slightly uphill, and would be great for dressage. And then I know there must be things that are in general, good. Like nice bone, and a nice neck or top line. Right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm not an expert at picking out exact things, but I used to be on a horse judging team, so I know the basics. 

Anyways, just pulled off a random dressage breeding sire and here's what I see that is usually very successful in dressage; 

long neck
uphill build
45 degree shoulder slope 
well set neck
a somewhat flat croupe <-- this is totally in relation to the 'ideal', so the angle really isn't that flat, just somewhat more than perfect. 
which makes a bit of an open hip angle <-- this makes it easier to lower the haunches and get the hind legs under the horse, by making space to close the angle. 
short back 

This horse has all of that


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

So when you say uphill, that means his withers are higher than his rump, or his shoulder is higher than his hip?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Uphill can be gauged a number of ways, but point of rump to root of neck (where the neck vertebrae attaches to the shoulder) is the best. Some horses are shark fin withered so may appear to have withers taller than rump, but actually be downhill in build. I also look at stifle to elbow, which are easier landmarks to see in a photo than root of neck. Most "uphill" horses have a neck that ties in higher to the chest (hence why root of neck is used as a gauge). Very few horses are truly uphill, most are level at best, but the more level or upright the easier it is for a horse to engage its hind end underneath itself.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Always important to remember that there are no perfect horses . And what is ideal or a priority for some sports may be considered a fault for others. Things like good bone, straight front legs, good slope to pastern, good shoulder layback, short back, strong coupling (loin), balanced build are good for ALL athletic disciplines (won't talk about halter horses here as what they want is so totally different from a horse that will be used).

However some things are really different from sport to sport - like for western pleasure they prefer a fairly low tie in of the neck to the chest so that the horse will be naturally low-headed. In dressage they want a higher neck tie in so that the horse can rock back and then collect into a particular upright frame. Other traits that one sport considers desirable are slight sickle hocks (some QH people think it is easier for cutting horse to get low with this trait), slightly over at the knee (TB -some think they can break off the line faster), etc.

There are lots of good basic horse structure articles on the internet if you search.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Tryst said:


> Uphill can be gauged a number of ways. Some horses are shark fin withered so may appear to have withers taller than rump, but actually be downhill in build.


That was the point of my question. Thank you, that is exactly what I was wondering.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Tryst said:


> Always important to remember that there are no perfect horses . And what is ideal or a priority for some sports may be considered a fault for others. Things like good bone, straight front legs, good slope to pastern, good shoulder layback, short back, strong coupling (loin), balanced build are good for ALL athletic disciplines (won't talk about halter horses here as what they want is so totally different from a horse that will be used).
> 
> However some things are really different from sport to sport - like for western pleasure they prefer a fairly low tie in of the neck to the chest so that the horse will be naturally low-headed. In dressage they want a higher neck tie in so that the horse can rock back and then collect into a particular upright frame. Other traits that one sport considers desirable are slight sickle hocks (some QH people think it is easier for cutting horse to get low with this trait), slightly over at the knee (TB -some think they can break off the line faster), etc.
> 
> There are lots of good basic horse structure articles on the internet if you search.


Which is why I find all of this conformation stuff so interesting. "good conformation" to an extent is really in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. It can vary quite a bit from discipline to discipline. Yet there are some things that are desirable regardless, like good bone and a short back...? Yes? 
Also, how do you determine if a croup is long or short? Where are the points of reference when determining croup size?

I should try to get some conformation shots of my horse and have them critiqued here, just for the sake of it. She is a Standardbred, off the track, turned lazy pasture horse for 7 years, then I got her and started her in dressage.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I actually described root of neck wrong... Look for the widest part if the neck (in front of the shoulder) It is actually between the 5th and 6th vertebra, not as I described it before. And it is root of neck to limbo-sacral joint. Doh!

Here is a good description from COF discussion by Confederate Chief:

"Let me see if I can make it a little more clear. When you are with your horse again, find the peak of the croup. Move your hand forward from there pressing down until you feel, for lack of better words, "spunginess". It will be before you reach the vertebrae. From that very point, come directly down about four inches and put a piece of masking tape there at that spot.

Then go to the front of your horse. Put your arms on either side of his neck and slide them down to the widest part (between 5th and 6th vertebrae of the neck) where the muscle becomes especially thick but before the shoulder. At the higher point of the neck. Place masking tape there. Then take a look and draw the imaginary line."


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Strawberry4Me said:


> Which is why I find all of this conformation stuff so interesting. "good conformation" to an extent is really in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. It can vary quite a bit from discipline to discipline. Yet there are some things that are desirable regardless, like good bone and a short back...? Yes?


Hmm.., well if we wanted every horse to do exactly the same job then there would likely be less variation in what is desirable, but we don't. It is not hard to imagine that a horse cutting a cow needs to move different than a race horse, or a Grand Prix jumper different than a western pleasure horse, a working draft horse different from a long distance endurance horse. A lot of it has to do with seeing joints as levers in the horses body- different movements require different length levers in order to get the ideal movement and athleticism for that use. So it isn't so much in the eye of the beholder, as it is in what has proven to work for that sport. And of course none of this takes into account the non-visible traits of heart and try!


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Tryst said:


> Hmm.., well if we wanted every horse to do exactly the same job then there would likely be less variation in what is desirable, but we don't. It is not hard to imagine that a horse cutting a cow needs to move different than a race horse, or a Grand Prix jumper different than a western pleasure horse, a working draft horse different from a long distance endurance horse. A lot of it has to do with seeing joints as levers in the horses body- different movements require different length levers in order to get the ideal movement and athleticism for that use. So it isn't so much in the eye of the beholder, as it is in what has proven to work for that sport. And of course none of this takes into account the non-visible traits of heart and try!


Yeah, I totally get that. Makes sense. At my old barn, during summer camp lessons with some of the older kids, they would go over conformation. (This is a dressage barn) They would often use my horse as an example of good conformation, but I never really understood why. I am not sure I do now, either. I know she is well put together, and has good bone, and is a lovely mover. But I really never got into the nitty-gritty of what makes her conformation good. 

I have been looking on the internet a little bit, and I think I am starting to get a better understanding for it. The sites that have pictures with lines on them showing where to look for what, I find quite helpful. Although, I think training an eye to see the "joints and levers" probably take a while. But I am getting it, I think. 

Thank you for all of your help!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This photo I always share when I post a photo of the nearly perfect horse. Some say he has a roach. He does not.. he has a very very solid coupling that would make him a little stiff. His throat latch is wide.. but that is desirable in horses that need to take in a lot of air (eventers, racing and so forth).

He is a champion Racing Stallion in Australia.

Oh.. and he is rare color... TRUE (non fading) black.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Elana said:


> This photo I always share when I post a photo of the nearly perfect horse. Some say he has a roach. He does not.. he has a very very solid coupling that would make him a little stiff. His throat latch is wide.. but that is desirable in horses that need to take in a lot of air (eventers, racing and so forth).
> 
> He is a champion Racing Stallion in Australia.
> 
> Oh.. and he is rare color... TRUE (non fading) black.


Thanks, Elana. I know you are one of the people who will take the pictures and write on them in red, and re-post them with an explanation. Would you mind or have the time to do so with this horse? He is beautiful, I agree with you!


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

When it comes right down to it somewhat conformation IS a judgement call and personal preference once you start getting into high quality horses. While both of the horses in this thread are REALLY nice, neither is MY ideal  hehe... 

While I know there was a lot of controversy with his owner, I always drool over Redwine.

And none of these horses would be ideal when it comes to any western events


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Here you go. He is a little bit down hill. His hind quarters, hip and stifle form a nearly equilateral triangle. His withers carry far into a very short back. He has good bone and an adequate shoulder.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is Redwine. Also a nice horse and more a Dressage horse in front than Lonrho but Lonrho has a better hind quarter. Redwine is more level and/or uphill. His muscling from point of buttock to gaskin is a bit weak (tho hare to see here).


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Tryst said:


> When it comes right down to it somewhat conformation IS a judgement call and personal preference once you start getting into high quality horses. While both of the horses in this thread are REALLY nice, neither is MY ideal  hehe...
> 
> While I know there was a lot of controversy with his owner, I always drool over Redwine.
> 
> And none of these horses would be ideal when it comes to any western events


I ALWAYS say someday I will have a Hanovarian like Redwine! (when I find a partner that is rich enough to support my horse habit...) 

Ehem, now I am rich with love... not Hanovarians. But I wont complain. 

He is SOME handsome though.


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

Elana said:


> Here you go. He is a little bit down hill. His hind quarters, hip and stifle form a nearly equilateral triangle. His withers carry far into a very short back. He has good bone and an adequate shoulder.


 
Thank you! Both pictures you posted with explanations are very helpful! I love how much I am learning here, and I am definitely a visual learner, so seeing the pictures is awesome! 

Thank you so much!


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I know you don't ride the head, but I would like Lonrho more if he had a larger eye and more appealing head (to me). For me his upside down neck muscling and slightly low tie in of his neck at the withers don't appeal to me, but I do quite like him from the neck back . And I come from a dressage background, so I do love a more uphill build


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is another photo of Lonrho.. before he let down. And one of him trotting...


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