# Land conservation and horses



## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

All that you mentioned are worth knowing. I am not sure about other regions, but I know that around here, there are many good government publications on land management. The area where I live supposedly has the greatest number of horses per capita in all of Canada (no sure how accurate this is) and so the county schedules many presentations a year discussing land management for the small acreage owner. I think these 'town hall' type presentations are more effective than a book because they tend to be focussed on current needs (i.e. preparing your land for winter, or winter grazing, or managing pastures during drought) and they allow people to ask questions, getting expert advice. I think anyone who would purchase a book on land management would also go to the presentations. Maybe you could work on designing a series of presentations and then a work book to accompany that. The work book would allow people to calculate the carrying capacity of their land, water needs, identify good and "bad" plants, etc.


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I would be very interested in all of the topics you mentioned. In addition, here are a few things on my mind as my husband and I consider buying a ~10 acre property in the course of the next year (likely to support 2 horses and maybe some goats; this would be our first out-of-town property):
1. If you abut conservation land, are there special management issues you need to be aware of (manure/runoff, etc.)?
2. What organic materials (if any) can help manage mud in a turnout area?
3. How should you handle land that has previously been treated with pesticides to make it safe for grazing? What organic methods (if any) can revitalize and maintain pasture?
4. Are there community organizations/partners that could utilize manure, and if so, how should it be treated/handled to make it suitable for those applications?
5. How can you combat invasive species (plant and pest)- for example, we have a real problem with Japanese knotweed here, and the only solution anyone has given us is a heavy pesticide, which we don't like the sound of...
6. How do you assess how your property intersects with any area watershed?
7. How do you estimate monthly/yearly land erosion, and can you plan to reverse it?

Again, I'm a newbie at land ownership, so there may be obvious answers to these questions, but they are questions I personally need to explore. So far I've been reading "Horsekeeping on a small acreage," but I think the topics addressed there are a bit different from what you're suggesting.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Egrogan,
THANK YOU! You give me hope that there are still horse owners out there who care about their land. (Conservationists have a notoriously hard time getting through to horse owners, as a general rule, since they are so steadfast in many of their ways.)
I have never been to the Eastern side of the country, so there are some differences and issues that I have no clue about, but as for what I can help with:

1. land bordering conservation land will vary based on the easment situation.  As a general rule, wetlands and riparian areas should be protected, even if they are not in a formal conservation easment. Planting dense stands of grasses and shrubs and fencing it off from grazing can work well in these cases (50 to 100 feet, ideally). Spot spraying in there with a wetland-safe herbicide on occasion can help keep weeds from establishing. If you need to let the animals get to a stream to water if there are no off stream watering facilities, a water crossing should be constructed so they will not stir up the stream bottom or erode the banks too badly.

2. oh boy, mud management. I don't have a real good answer and have been trying to research this myself. I know installing french drains can help, but they are tricky to get just right and require maintenance. Sometimes the best answer is to pick a safe sacrifice pasture and let them tear it up while protecting the rest.

3. It really depends on what product(s) was used. some are very narrow spectrum and water soluble, and a season of rain will do away with or neutralize them into their neutral components.

4. Gardeners and viticulturists could use composted manure. The key is thorough and proper composting, which there is TONS of great literature on. Basics include balancing browns (carbon) and greens (nitrogen) and keeping the air and water flowing to get those microbes working. Hint, if it smells bad, something is wrong. AND if you are in an area with high precipitation, porous soils, or a high or vulnerable water table, please store and compost manure over cement and covered

5. Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is the use of combined efforts to control pest species (animal or plant). These vary for the situation and target species, but generally include scouting, spot spraying with selected products (usually narrow spectrum, low risk pesticides, some organic approved, such as sulfur powder) and introducing natural predators (with caution). I can't comment on Japanese Knotweed, but i know it's a bad one and very hard to erradicate. On a side note (I just had this convo with a transitioning organic farmer today), sometimes a land is so over run with introduced species and invasives that there is little you can do without chemical intervention. In this case it was an annual invasive grass which comes back with a vengence when burnt and out competes the natives here. We decided that it was best to carefully apply pesticides for a year, then transition to organic IPM measures. Nothing will be harvested, but the hay will be mulched into the soil to increase biotic activity to breakdown any residues and get them on the road to organic certification.

6. Topo maps! They will give you more info than you know what to do with. By studying them you can understand where you sit within a water basin and will understand where water flows off of your property, too.

7. Well, i spend hours per day calculating this with a program called RUSLE2, but it is trickier on pasture land than on crop land. I would focus on keeping your soil covered. Soil erodes by water or by wind. Water is broken down into sheet, rill and gully erosion. In sheet erosion, which causes the most loss, surprisingly, the soil is detatched and carried away by individual rain drops. To prevent this, the soil needs a cover (grass, mulch) rill and gully erosion are from concentrated flow of water and are hard to prevent. Good drainage will help though. Wind erosion can be prevented by, again, keeping the soil covered with grass or mulch and adding wind rows to break up the wind.

If you are interested in your soil, check out Web Soil Survey - Home

you can pull up an area, see the soils, and look at soil reports to learn more about it.


Good luck on the land search! I'm currently looking for property as well to keep my horses and a herd of meat goats and meat rabbits as well as a subsistence garden.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I keep hearing that horses are hard on the land so lets keep horses off government land.

Then I see clear cutting.

No way can a horse be nearly as hard on the soil as clear cutting a forest using heavy equipment.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

gunslinger,

good point that is in certain instances true. Yes horses are hard on the land, unlike many other ruminants they have both upper and lower teeth which can graze lower on the plant, into the crown which effects regrowth. Their solid hooves also (arguably, I'm not so sure) do more damage than split hooves.

Clear cutting is not good because it strips the land of cover and allows mass movement of soil. But in some areas, the trees actually do regenerate quickly enough to make the risk lower (I am NOT saying that is any excuse, i do NOT support clear cutting). Also clear cutting is becoming less and less common, and is now typically only done on private industrial lands.

Both need to be moderated. Horses are fine on the land as long as they are not overpopulated (which they are right now). Logging is fine on land as long as it is done responsibly (which we are still transitioning way too slowly towards)


----------



## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I have a question about mud. What about that new surface they're using on race tracks now? I thought it was invented to make the track dry out fast - is there any reason (besides cost) it wouldn't work the same in a sacrifice paddock?


----------



## BigGirlsRideWarmbloods (Mar 28, 2010)

Easy! Nothing at all; my local conservation district did it all for me. They sent a conservationist out to my house and we discussed my property my local flora and fawna, and best practices for water run off, manure & mud management and the they wrote me a custom plan, with step by step solutions, and reference photographs, for free. They even have a cost sharing program to pay for their suggestions, and free classes on each topic you called out if I wanted more hands on, in-depth education, in addition to the free lifetime support.

This year I got a forced air composting system for my manure bins!

They literally wrote the book on environmentally friendly horse keeping and farming. Seriously, it's free under "Publications"

http://www.kingcd.org/index.php

http://www.horsesforcleanwater.com/





karliejaye said:


> Hello all! *
> I am rather new to the forum and thought this would be an interesting place to get some insight from fellow horse owners (and land owners, too!)
> 
> I am a soil conservationist as a profession, I work with farmers and ranchers to come up with ways to conserve natural resources in their operation. *I grew up with horses and they will always hold a dear place in my heart, but in my work I cannot stand them! *They are extremely hard on the land and cause quite a bit of damage.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

yeh lets keep horses off the land, gotta make room for the clear cutting and strip mining, new highways, and garbage dumps. Oh not to mention lets pile up some radioactive waste.
You are not gonna get alot of people to take you serious about their horses when they look around and see much larger problems. You also need to insure you are not adressing isues in a negative manner with a list of donts.
Way better results with a long list of do's and the advantages of the do's.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

It seems to me, there is an agenda, that would limit access to land by any thing other than hikers.

No one loves the forest more than me, but I realize, that for people to support it, it has to be useful to them. 

Lots of land closed under the guise of "protecting" it.

Access for all.....ATV's and motor cycles too.


----------



## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

gunslinger said:


> It seems to me, there is an agenda, that would limit access to land by any thing other than hikers.
> 
> No one loves the forest more than me, but I realize, that for people to support it, it has to be useful to them.
> 
> ...


 
You got it wrong. They don't want to close it down to all but hikers. They want to close it down to all but a select few hikers. A few areas are like this and there is a push to make more and more land this way.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Darrin said:


> You got it wrong. They don't want to close it down to all but hikers. They want to close it down to all but a select few hikers. A few areas are like this and there is a push to make more and more land this way.


Yes, I agree.

The southern Appalachians were absolutely raped by the end of the 19th century, or at least by 1920. Almost every tree gone.

It amazes me how well the forest has recovered. I guess an argument can be made that the eco system has been forever changed because of it, but for the most part the forest appears to be in pretty good shape.

While I would agree that there needs to be areas to remain natural, I would disagree with the way some are managed.

Frankly, if I can't use it, then what good is it to me? This sounds a little selfish, but I'm of the opinion, the only way to preserve it is to allow the people to enjoy it.


----------



## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

while riding around one day, I noticed a long line of small state symbols nailed to a trees every 100 yards or so, Wow looks like public land near my house, I go a bit farther, there is a little boat ramp and parking area, and a logging road going back in the woods along the creek. Its only a few minutes from my house so with the help of google maps I realize this is a 3 mile long stretch of land along the river, then a right turn and another 3 mile trail back, only about 100 yards wide but basically a 6 mile loop might be a nice exersise run,,,, Soooooo then I see the 3 foot high list of donts, turns out it is somekinda of bat sanctuary and basically you can do nothing but walk around, probably barefoot, no pictures no horses, no bikes,, so the place sits there deserted, other than the boat launch area,


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

My apologies KarlieJaye, I think you're here to help, but current over regulation of public land seems to cast most do-gooders as the problem, not the solution.

As I've posted before, the streets of hell will surely be paved with the best of intentions.

If you don't mind, please tell me how permanent damage is defined?


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

WHilst there are undoubtedly issues relating to keeping horses as the sole grazers on a area of land. relatively few of us have any say or control in how the land is managed. Only those who either own or who have a formal field lease agreement have any say in how the land is maintained.

In our area of south Wales, the number of sheep grazing the land is falling as is the number of cattle either for milk or beef. However the number of horses to be seen grazing appears to be increasing. Whether sheep are good for land management is perhaps open to question. It seems that increasingly cows are being kept in 'factories' and some poor animals are lucky to see grass. 

But one fact is ever present - the grass has to be either cut or eaten - otherwise the land will quicly revert to scrub pasture and within a decade or two it will become woodland and there is less and less economic use of the timber. Hereabout grazing land sells for up to £10,000 say $16,000 per acre - and a horse needs an acre to live off.

Horses may be hard on pastureland - but the effect can be minimized by rotation and mechanical treatment. But it is a matter from the land owners to come to terms with - all we horse riders do is to play with the horses and pay the bills.


----------



## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Starting off with "I cant stand horses" on a horse forum isnt gonna win yo many friends, and many wil stop listenign to anything you have to say no matter how valid your opinions.
Let me try to re write your first post. Saying roughly the same thing,
"I grew up around horses and really enjoy them. I am really interesting helping horse owners with some land management techiniques that can save them money on hay, cut down on flys and mud, maybe control some runoff and in the process help out some of the area wildlife and head off some of the over regulation that may be coming."

Try starting like that next time.


----------



## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I think we do need to leave places for other animals to live. I don't think of it as land being useless, I think of it as a long-term rotation program. When the land we're using is no longer any good, our children will be able to use the preserved land while the old land recovers. It's a cycle.


But in the same breath wild horses would destroy the land just as much as domestic ones. People tend to think that only humans harm the environment but it's not true - bears often destroy berry bushes in the act of eating from them, and beavers can cut significant swaths through forests. And there are worse things you can do with land than graze horses on it.

What really bothers me is when people cut down trees on their property and then just burn the wood. There is no such thing as waste wood anymore - even sawdust can be used in construction. Send it somewhere where it will be used.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I apologize for making anyone angry and I seem to have been completely misunderstood by all but a select few (which underscores my fears about the horse community). 

I apologize for being a realist and trying to help fellow horse enthusiasts make improvements before large laws come down the pipe.

I apologize for voicing an opinion which is kept hush-hush in the horse community that I know.


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Karlie, You do not need to apologise to this community for expressing an honestly held and informed opinion. Indeed, your thoughts may not meet with the approval of all of the members but most of those people who disagree with your thinking will either post a response or say nothing. Invariably they will keep within their own acquired beliefs.

By all means try to educate us as to the best use of land, but if your thoughts are confrontational then you must expect a counter response. At such times 
you should stand your ground and make your point. Most of us on the Forum seek to debate issues which face the horse riding fratenity so as to seek a solution to long term problems or at best a compromise.

It is well known that horses steel shod hooves destroy the sward of pasture.
It is also known that horses are selective eaters.
Indeed, horses are poor grazers of grassland.

But we horse owners have taken on the 24/7 responsibility for the well being of a large quadraped which lives on grassland. We have to make choices.

The grassland of my own horse is managed as best as we can. We pick up the dung and we try not to permit the horse to overgraze the pasture. We re-seed and we remove weeds. We harrow, we roll. we cut. 

But my horse needs access to grass for much of the year. My aim is to give my mare as much access as I can to sweet grass whilst bearing in mind my horse's susceptibility to laminitis and over weight.

Personally I and my friends will listen to any advice as to how best to feed and graze my horse in a sustainable manner. But I won't deny unduly my horse for the benefit of a butterfly or in accordance with a philosophy which seeks to preserve a notional status quo for the benefit of generations of humans as yet to come. They may never arrive for reasons disassociated with my horse. 

But the fundamental issue is that most of us do not have the right to manage the land, since we are not the owner of the acreage. Mostly we horse owners merely lease a stable and the right for our 'pet' horse to graze. 

I sense a hidden agenda in this thread. Perhaps you might care to get to the fundamental issues involved and which gave cause for you to post the starter for this thread. We foreigners are not aware of much of what goes on in the US. Please explain more clearly the point you are trying to make. 

Britain is a green and pleasant island of trees, farmland and grassland, where horses cannot as yet be blamed for long term environmental issues.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

karliejaye said:


> I apologize for making anyone angry and I seem to have been completely misunderstood by all but a select few (which underscores my fears about the horse community).
> 
> I apologize for being a realist and trying to help fellow horse enthusiasts make improvements before large laws come down the pipe.
> 
> I apologize for voicing an opinion which is kept hush-hush in the horse community that I know.



I guess the problem is large laws have already come down the pipe.

I think we all want to be good stewards of the land, but we also want more places to ride, not less, and less regulation, not more.

It only makes sense to manage the land as best one can, but to say a horse hurts the land, and then see entire hill tops removed in West Virginia by large mining operations, forest raped and destroyed by clear cutting and.... well, sorry, but I'm not willing to buy into the whole horses are bad for the land philosophy.

I don't understand the hush-hush comment, can you elaborate more on that please?

No need to apologize to me as you certainly haven't made me angry. You have every right to your opinion and as this is a public (to a degree) forum, every right to voice it. I am in no way offended by it but rather, disagree with the agenda rather than the practice.

Frankly, I think we could learn many things from you.


----------



## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

karliejaye said:


> I apologize for making anyone angry and I seem to have been completely misunderstood by all but a select few (which underscores my fears about the horse community).



This is not a "horse community" problem. Some people care about the environment and some don't. It has nothing to do with whether they like horses or not.


----------



## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Most people who own livestock do care about the enironment. Now there's a huge gulf between those who care about the environment and those who think the environment has to be protected at all costs (greenies for short). Matter of fact, everyone I know who step outside of the city limits for their entertainment/leisure care about the environment. The caveat to that are generally young and alcohol is involved.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Exactly. I love the forest as much as anyone. I ride in it almost every weekend.

What I hate is government interference in the form of over regulation.

Kind of like Al Gore living in a 12,000 square foot house that uses enough power to light a small town and then tell us we've all got to pay for carbon credits to save the world.

Don't do as I do, do as I say do.

The same thing applies to the forest.....don't ride in it, it hurts it....but never mind the clear cutting or the man behind the curtain.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Thank you all for the input. Sorry for not getting back sooner, I have been on travel status for a bit (thank goodness I'm home!)

I re-read everything in the thread and see how it looks like I have an hidden motive. I do not. I work for the USDA NRCS and this is in no way related, but I am trying to figure out a middle ground. In my agency, we are all for conservation, making sure the land is usable for future generations, NOT taking land out of production or keeping livestock off of it. 

If nothing else, PLEASE understand I am not for taking horses off of the land! (well, I'll leave the feral horse issue alone here) They are needed for the health of the grasses, too! But management needs to be considered, and many people understand that. Some don't or some want to expand that knowledge in order to mitigate the effects (not good or bad) that come from grazing equines.

I disagree with a lot of legislature regarding natural resources, but I refuse to not do what I feel is my part just because another agency isn't doing their part.

I agree with what you all have said and applaud those who actively manage their land. I have been dis-heartened by a few horse owners who did not care a lick about the land, and I wanted to get hope that not everyone is like that. Thank you.

And for the record, i, too own horses, graze them year round and ride in the forests that I feel **** lucky to have.

Viva the horsemen, and viva the land we use. All I'm saying is let's take care of both! Cheers.

Now I need to get my booty to work.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Glad you're back, now where in the world have you been?


----------

