# Black bay?



## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Is there such a thing as black bay? I've heard and seen it mentioned but I can't seem to find anything on it. My new gelding is supposedly black bay, in his winter coat he is pitch black (except for some sunbleached hair and his white markings) so he's definitely not brown. But in the summer he starts looking like a bay, I'm thinking maybe that's why they called him black bay? I was thinking it could just be sun bleaching. He is the one in my avatar.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

It's hard to see exactly clearly but he looks black. I'm thinking he sun bleaches. Can u post better pics?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Here's a bigger version of the avatar picture








He's new (I've had him less than two weeks) so I don't have many pictures yet. The only other two I have are even worse than this one as far as judging color. I will get some pictures tomorrow while I'm at the barn.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Yeah, he is " Schwarz braun", black bay. A tad darker than a dark bay. Normally around the nose, flanks and inside of hind legs he should be lighter. 
I had a really dark bay,, with the mealy nose and flanks in winter, in summer it was more towards red there, rest was very dappled super dark bay, almost black. If that makes sense lol


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Most of the "black bay" horses I've seen are genetically brown (At)


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I've seen the term "black bay" before and perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but a horse cannot be both black and bay. If one of the agouti genes are not present then the horse is black; if any of the agouti genes are present it is some variation of bay. Perhaps he's a very dark seal bay (aka seal brown or brown) horse. Or maybe he's a black horse that fades dramatically in the summer.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Its also called seal bay, and is not actually a bay color, it is technically considered brown.
This is my seal bay/black bay mare


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> I've seen the term "black bay" before and perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but a horse cannot be both black and bay. If one of the agouti genes are not present then the horse is black; if any of the agouti genes are present it is some variation of bay. Perhaps he's a very dark seal bay (aka seal brown or brown) horse. Or maybe he's a black horse that fades dramatically in the summer.


I was more thinking in German terms, since the horse is Oldenburg lol. We don't have the term brown or seal brown in horse colors. The only differences in bays," braun", are braun( bay), dunkelbraun( dark bay) and schwarzbraun( black bay). Maybe the English term is just the literal translation from German for a German breed. Just a wild guess.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

At the end of the day the horse is either black, bay, or brown. Everything else is a description.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

So he's super dark bay? I have heard of schwarz braun! My TB gelding is brown, but this one doesn't seem to have those orangey points the browns get. I know most "bay" horses are actually brown since my other gelding is brown. I'm heading out to the barn soon so I will have better pictures!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe take pics of both, for comparison;-)


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I was more thinking in German terms, since the horse is Oldenburg lol. We don't have the term brown or seal brown in horse colors. The only differences in bays," braun", are braun( bay), dunkelbraun( dark bay) and schwarzbraun( black bay). Maybe the English term is just the literal translation from German for a German breed. Just a wild guess.


Registries often have their own definitions that aren't based on genetics. There's a difference between "classic" bay (A) and seal bay/seal brown/brown (At) that can be seen in DNA. There's also wild bay (A+), but there's no test for that at the moment.

Just like there are different shades of chestnut (everything from bright coppery red to nearly black liver) there are different shades of classic bay and seal bay. So there is a such thing as dark classic bay that is genetically distinct from seal bay. And you can have two seal bays that are wildly different visually but are (based on our current understanding of color genetics) the same color.

But from the one picture, I'd guess OP's horse to be a fading black. What the registry calls it... well that's another story 

ETA- I've seen "black bay" used for Andalusian stud ads, so it's definitely not just a German breed thing


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Registries often have their own definitions that aren't based on genetics. There's a difference between "classic" bay (A) and seal bay/seal brown/brown (At) that can be seen in DNA. There's also wild bay (A+), but there's no test for that at the moment.
> 
> Just like there are different shades of chestnut (everything from bright coppery red to nearly black liver) there are different shades of classic bay and seal bay. So there is a such thing as dark classic bay that is genetically distinct from seal bay. And you can have two seal bays that are wildly different visually but are (based on our current understanding of color genetics) the same color.
> 
> ...


European!!! 
Don't recall black bay in Italian, but they do have a "baio scuro"...dark bay. I think it's a visual description, not scientific;-)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

For example the chestnuts
Fuchs = chestnut, red
Dunkelfuchs =dark chestnut
Kohlfuchs or Brandfuchs=coal-or burned chestnut I.e. liver chestnut
Schweissfuchs=another liver chestnut, the color of a sweaty chestnut(sweat=Schweiss)
all pretty descriptive


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I would say he is "brown". But genetics really aren't my forte xD


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think KigerQueen's horse is what I think of when I think "seal bay". My boy is darker and I think of him as black...because he IS black, though obv genetically brown. I call him either a seal bay or black (say to a non horse person)

imgur: the simple image sharer

It's much more noticeable here than in person. I think he was clipped at this point too, and obviously dusty. His coat, except for very small tell tale areas is pitch black.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I ended up not going to the barn but I am feeding tonight so I will have pictures later on. He doesn't have the lighter points like a brown would, I understand the difference. Maybe I should just have him tested, it's not expensive. I'm honestly leaning towards fading black...
_Posted via Mobile Device_

ETA I know for brown a tell take sign is a lighter muzzle but his is jet black


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I can't tell from the pic but I think fading black is quite possible (and some turn brown from it). I would be interested if you test.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

More pictures, still not the greatest, by time I finished feeding and stalls it was dark out. I may have to get even more pictures lol
















And here's a headshot of my very obviously brown gelding


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd say fading black. Esp in the winter the brown is usually more noticeable. I don't see ANY brown


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm thinking fading black too, when I first looked up black bay I found a site that said black bays were horses that were so dark they looked black, but tested as bay (not brown). But I can't seem to find that site again. I think I'm going to have him tested just for the heck of it!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Fading black IMPO. When black fades, very often it gives a horse a "bay" look to them, like this guy:


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Agreed!!! Fading black!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

^From the picture I saw of him in the summer, he looks just like that when he fades. So it looks like fading black it is! If I'm going to have him tested but exactly would I test for? And then I believe to change his color on his papers I have to send them the genetic testing results correct? I'm not sure if I wanna mess with it, but now it's going to bug me lol.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Test for red/black and agouti.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Agreed. My mare looks more brown in the summer (black with BRIGHT highlights) then she fades to a more bay color. In the winter she turns black with a brown nose and tan underbelly.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Just to confuse things more... in Germany( yeah yeah,I know lol), We have Winter Rappe and and Sommer Rappe, winter black and summer black, and they are exactly that, black in winter resp. summer, and a dark bay otherwise.....


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I would only test for agouti. Maybe cream too, if one of his parents was cream carrier he could be smokey black, but I think just fading black too. I don't see a point in testing for extension, he is black based.


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