# Liver chestnut or regular chestnut?



## roro

This is something I have discussed with multiple people and I have gotten different answers. My horse's previous owner called him a liver chestnut but others tell me he is a regular chestnut and I am having trouble deciding which one he is. He has the mane and tail of a more liver chestnut horse but his coat isn't as dark. His tail has a lighter tone of chestnut down at the bottom. Also, he has a few (maybe 3) small random splotches of darker chestnut on his coat, if that helps.


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## Lobelia Overhill

first pic I'd have said chestnut, but looking at his mane and tail in the second I'm going to say liver chestnut, his mane and tail are too dark for a regular chestnut colouring ...


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## lillie

with that dark mane and tail , he is what is referred to as a bright bay. not a chestnut at all


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## Sophie19

Maybe Blood Bay?


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## heyycutter

i think bright bay is right also
chestnuts really dont have that dark of mane and tails


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## speedy da fish

he looks liver chestnut in the 1st picture, but bay in the 2nd apart from the slight brown tinge in the tail.


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## speedy da fish

heyycutter said:


> i think bright bay is right also
> chestnuts really dont have that dark of mane and tails


yeah im leaning towards bay too his mane is dark (almost black) . liver chestnuts are dark brown all over



























some examples i think that last one best represents liver chestnut.


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## iridehorses

Photos can be a poor indicator concerning colors that are very close due to camera differences but I don't see how anyone sees Bay. There are no black points aside from mane and tail. What I see is Brown, pure and simple.

Bay (horse) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## clipclops

I agree with a bay. He is a bay without black leggings.


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## kassierae

All bays have black points. He is a dark chestnut. Not a liver chestnut, not a bay.


Liver Chestnut(taken from the www.equine-color.info website)


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## lilkitty90

well w/e color of the rainbow he might be.. he is BEAUTIFUL!!! and you should definatly be happy with that! lol


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## AnnaLover

I agree with kassierae


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## smrobs

I agree that he is beautiful regardless of what you decide to call him. Definitely not a bay as he has no black points (legs and ears). I would call him a dark chesnut. When I think liver chesnut, I picture a horse like kassierae posted. One that is almost black and the color of actual liver is what I call a liver chesnut.


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## roro

I am fairly certain he is not bay because his tail and mane are not black. Perhaps more pictures might help?
This is a close up of his tail, you can see at the bottom it gets lighter. It would have more obvious highlights at the bottom if his tail was not dock clipped. 









Coat color in bright sunlight


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## Eastowest

IMO he's just chestnut with a darker mane and tail. Not common exactly, but certainly not unheard of.

Bays have black points. He doesn't have black points, just a darker than average shade of chestnut mane and tail.


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## rocky pony

Yeah, definitely no bay..They do need to have the black points.
Looks like you just have a special chestnut =P


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## PaintsPwn

o____O How are people getting that he's a bay? He has NO agouti factor whatsoever!

Dark Chestnut fo' sho.


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## fizzylizzy

his mane and tail are black, so he can't be a chestnut, coz they have the same colour mane and tail! But he also doesn't have any other black points, i.e ears and legs, so I'd say he was a brown?  hes cute!


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## kassierae

No, chestnut does not always have the same color mane and tail. I think you should all go to the www.equine-color.info website and read about it. A chestnut can have the same color mane and tail, or they can have a lighter or darker mane and tail. The horse in question does not in fact have a black mane and tail, they are just dark. He is a dark chestnut by description.

I'm a color freak. Can ya tell?


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## Jordi

kassierae said:


> No, chestnut does not always have the same color mane and tail. I think you should all go to the www.equine-color.info website and read about it. A chestnut can have the same color mane and tail, or they can have a lighter or darker mane and tail. The horse in question does not in fact have a black mane and tail, they are just dark. He is a dark chestnut by description.
> 
> I'm a color freak. Can ya tell?


I agree 100% with this. Your horse is definitely gorgeous, but he's most certainly not bay. I think I read somewhere that his shade of chestnut would be referred as tostado chestnut, which is chestnut with the darker mane and tail. I have a mare the same color as your guy and in certain light, her mane and tail can look almost black (but they are really just a very dark brown). My girl also has the darker spots throughout her coat. 

Here's a picture of my mare--you can't see her tail very well in this pic, but it's quite dark. You can, however, see her dark mane and those dark spots on her coat.


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## Fortune

Dark chestnut. I have a gelding who is a very similar colour; a nice rich red body with a very dark mane & tail. Even has similar smutt marks on the rump.

The term liver chestnut is generally applied to chestnuts who are darker all over. Although really, there is no known genetic difference between the different shades of chestnut. They all carry the ee genotype. He's definitely not a bay as he doesn't have the black points, and even the lightest shade 'wild bay' has minimal black points up to the pasterns. Bays carry the Agouti gene which can only be expressed on a black phenotype (Ee or EE) and is masked when present in the chestnut (ee) phenotype.

My chestnut boy for comparison


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## EveningShadows

It baffles me how people are saying bay...definitely NOT. 

I have to agree with him being a dark chestnut. He's not liver, clearly not a bay...his mane and tail are DARK, but not black. And forgive me for possibly sounding stupid - but is brown a recognized color?!


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## smrobs

^^ Yes, I think it is but I understand that "brown" is more of a blackish looking horse with lighter shading around the muzzle, flanks, and underside like this horse. Often called a seal brown horse.


Or this one, he is a better example of what I consider "brown".


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## Remali

Dark chestnut. He has no black points anywhere so definitely not a bay. Chestnuts can have darker manes and tails, just a darker shade of chestnut hairs in the tail and mane.

I wouldn't call him liver chestnut tho.....I'd say a dark chestnut.


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## CloudsMystique

I'm shocked that people are saying bay...


Anyway, that is one unusual color. I definitely wouldn't call him a "regular" chestnut because his mane and tail would have to be the same reddish color his body is. I've seen liver chestnuts with coats that are lighter than their manes and tails, but I've never seen one with a coat that red. Liver chestnuts are just kind of missing the red that the other shades of chestnuts have so much of.

I honestly have no idea what I would call him.

I found a couple pictures of horses that look similar. They're listed under "liver chestnut."


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## deuceschinagirl

I did a little bit of homework and I think your horse's color would be refered to as a wild bay. Click on this link: http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/bay.html
It states: "black on the legs is restricted and is only visible around the coronet and on the fetlocks." Your horse's Mane and tail are definitly black and if you look closly at his knees and hocks you can see a little bit of black on them. Do me a favor and take alook at those areas and see if there are any black hairs mixed in with or underneath the brown hairs. That might be a clue. Whatever his color though, he is definitly a hansme boy!


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## kassierae

No, he is NOT a wild bay. He is a dark chestnut. Go to www.equine-color.info and ask them if you want answers. He still would need semi black points to be a wild bay, and wild bay technically isn't a color. The people on that forum are the experts. I am utterly BAFFLED that some of you think he is bay. No black points = no Agouti gene = not bay.


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## roro

I appreciate all the different answers here, yet I am around this horse every day and I am quite certain that he has no black points. His mane and tail are a very dark chestnutish color, and I believe that is visible in the pictures. They are definitely not black. Thank you for all the different replies everyone!


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## Remali

Nice looking horse...... from what I have read in my equine color genetics books, he seems to be a dark chestnut to me.


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## Ridehorses99

Definitely a chestnut. However, different breeds call the same color different things. I have an AQHA gelding almost the same color as your horse. When I bought him, he was stalled every day and his mane and tail looked almost black (they were actually dark, dark brown) and his body and legs are medium chestnut color. He has been mistaken for bay, brown, etc. In the first picture, you can see his dark tail but obviously no black points on his legs. In the second picture, he is darker overall from his winter coat but you can see his mane is a dark brown. Click on the pictures to enlarge.

Champ's winter color.


My friend owns a horse that would fit the definition of a "wild bay". Notice the leg markings.


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## kevinshorses

I have stock horses so I would say sorrel but since he is not a stock horse he would be a regular chestnut. If you have ever seen a liver you would know he is not the color of one. I have a chestnut tree outside my house and the nuts are pretty close to your horses color.


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## mom2pride

He is definitely NOT bay...there is not a spot of black marking on that horse! 

I would say he is kind of a Mahogany chestnut, or dark red chestnut...He's not really dark 'brown' enough to be liver...


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## lillie

when i said bright bay, you couldnt see his legs in photo, and mane definately looked black ; having seen some of the later pictures of him though, i am not sure i still think he is bright bay. which of his photos does the owner think comes closest to his real life shade of colouring? he may just be his own unique colour- you could make up an entire new color catergory and name it for him!


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## chika1235

fizzylizzy said:


> his mane and tail are black, so he can't be a chestnut, coz they have the same colour mane and tail! But he also doesn't have any other black points, i.e ears and legs, so I'd say he was a brown?  hes cute!


 my horse is a chestnut but his mane doesnt match him.his tail is the same color but he has a blonde mane.id sttill consider him chestnut.


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## Plains Drifter

*If you see a Bay-like horse whose points are not quite black, or a Bay-like horse with black mane and tail but red legs, that is a Liver Chestnut.








*This liver chestnut Morgan would be a bay except his lower legs are not black.

Courtesy of: http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/agouti.htm


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## deuceschinagirl

Ok, so I made a mistake I generally know a bay or chestnut horse when I see one, but in the second photo (I don't know if its the lighting or not) it just looked your horse had bay tones with out the points. sorry.


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## Snowkicker

I just read this and am amused at how a chestnut horse can be mistaken for so many different colors Especially Bay. Is bright Bay really a color? I own a wild bay horse which is a more primitive color with roaning definitely not the color of this horse. The mane and tail of this horse are not black but dark red. Some brighter sunlit pictures might have saved some of the confusion.


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## roro

Snowkicker said:


> I just read this and am amused at how a chestnut horse can be mistaken for so many different colors Especially Bay. Is bright Bay really a color? I own a wild bay horse which is a more primitive color with roaning definitely not the color of this horse. The mane and tail of this horse are not black but dark red. Some brighter sunlit pictures might have saved some of the confusion.


Bright bay is a shade of bay, not it's own color. Other terms such as a light chestnut etc. are shades as well. Also, different regions have different names for these shades, one person's bright bay is another person's wild bay and another person's blood bay. For example:

Search for bright bay:
http://www.irishcobsdirect.com/USERIMAGES/oscar3.jpg

Search for blood bay:
http://www.strathconas.ca/images/smt/herd_aug07/Saint.jpg

Search for wild bay:
http://canaryzoo.com/Horse Colours/colour bay.jpg

IMO these are all the same shade, although bloods are usually a little darker than the other two.


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## KiwiGal77

Bays don't necessarily HAVE to have black legs, but they DO have have a jet black mane and tail - and there is abolutely no way this horses mane and tail is black, it is a very dark brown, making this horse dark chestnut (I wouldn't say liver chestnut as his body is still lighter)

Some bay's miss out on the black points wround knees/hocks, or they are just so faded you wouldn't clearly be able to see unless you were looking closely. Some have black legs, some have brown legs the same as their body, and some have white socks. As long as they are a shade of brown with black mane and tail they are bay.


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## kassierae

A bay horse is described as having a brown-ish colored coat with black points. You don't get the agouti gene without the points.


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## CloudsMystique

KiwiGal77 said:


> Bays don't necessarily HAVE to have black legs, but they DO have have a jet black mane and tail - and there is abolutely no way this horses mane and tail is black, it is a very dark brown, making this horse dark chestnut (I wouldn't say liver chestnut as his body is still lighter)
> 
> Some bay's miss out on the black points wround knees/hocks, or they are just so faded you wouldn't clearly be able to see unless you were looking closely. Some have black legs, some have brown legs the same as their body, and some have white socks. As long as they are a shade of brown with black mane and tail they are bay.


Uh, no. The agouti gene causes black points. They can't just "miss out" on them. The only time a bay horse would have no black points is if they were SEVERELY sunfaded (and even that is highly unlikely because the legs are the very last to fade, so even if they were extremely faded they should at least have black below the fetlocks). With no black at all on the legs, the horse is not bay.


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## JustDressageIt

He could be a regular chestnut with sooty (I think? or Smoky? I can't remember...) characteristics... Denny's a sabino chestnut most likely with a sooty gene... his tail is darker than his body:


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## lillie

you know what they say- a good horse can be any colour!


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## XxHunterJumperxX

Liver.

He is a regular chesnut, with dark mane and tail, that qualifies as a liver chesnut.

They are generally light with dark manes and tails, or fark with light manes and tails.

Definately NOT a bay. Bays ALWAYS have black points, even if they are only a little on the knees. My horse has those. And their manes are always black, or do dark brown, amateur eyes would call it black.


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## dimmers_double

My best guess would be a liver chestnut or brown but definitely NOT bay.....ALL bays have black points. Your horse has a very dark brown mane and tail. I don't know too much about the color genes so I couldn't say if he has some other gene that's possibly causing the darker mane and tail. I love his coloring though. I don't say that about too many chestnuts or browns :wink:


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## dressagexlee

Björsells Briar (love this horse!), Carnaval Drum, and Apollo's Fire are examples of very different liver chestnuts.

I'm not sure what exactly to call your horse. In the first picture he looks most definitely liver, but the second makes him appear as a bay... Without colour points.
Looking at the other other pictures of him on your barn, I'd go with liver chestnut. His mane seems like a very dark brown, rather than black. Yet, I'm still skepitcal.
Is he clipped? Does his coat tend to change colour in the summer and winter?
I'm not sure if a DNA test might help?

Pretty boy, though. He looks so sweet! ~


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## smrobs

Apollo's Fire seems closer to what I consider a liver chesnut. My best example is Scotch Judge but this is the only pic I have of him.









This is the color I see when I think liver anything.


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