# Opinions on laying a horse down for respect



## Chevylover96 (Dec 9, 2012)

So as always I was just watching videos on YouTube, about horse training  and I can across this video, 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rI-9MZX_zBk 
Laying a horse down with ropes. 
I was just wondering all of your guys opinions on this? 
With my old lease horse Tucker, I only leased him for a month and a half before I bought my horse, he was kinda the "rebound" horse from having to leave my other lease of over 1 1/2 years. But anyway I taught him to lay down on his own, I would say down and he would sniff the ground, and he'd get a reward, then he'd start digging and he got a bigger reward, within 2-3 days he laid down when told. Everyone has different opinions on horse training, but what do you all think?
I'm just asking because I'm currently training my new 3 year old standardbred some tricks during her break days from ridden work (Ive done all the training myself, and she currently only gets worked 3-4 days a week). Lay down and now are kinda next on my list, I don't think I'd ever tie my horse up to teach them to lay down, I'm just curious to how many of you would. Thanks guys!
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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

I've done it. Actually, I worked on a feedlot a few years ago in Grandview. Me and a friend started a lot of colts at that feedlot, and we ran into some really disrespectful horses. We would lay them down in a sand round corral and sit on them and eat our lunch. They stood up with a whole different perspective on the human, and the rest of their training was as easy as cake. I really like doing it with colts, particularly yearlings and two year olds, they learn respect really quickly.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I think laying down for "respect" in most cases is unnecessary. I can see where laying down can be used as a handy trick to teach your horse but to lay a horse down for respect I personally don't like it. Laying down has to be done carefully by very experienced hands. Injury to both horse and handler can happen if done improperly. When people try to make a horse lay down cause it is "disrespectful" for whatever reason I wonder if the horse really associated the laying down with the incorrect behavior. If a horse isn't corrected 3 seconds after its wrong doing they don't usually associate being punished for their bad behavior. Punishment needs to be instantaneous and a horse can't instantly lay down. So unless its done properly by someone who actually knows what they are doing I imagine most people when trying to lay their horse down for respect don't achieve much or they scare the heck out of their horses. If it's done right I can see it being useful but I've trained some disrespectful or fearful horses and with time, patience and good solid ground work and riding they become great well mannered horses. I think some people misunderstand their horses body language and assume its disrespect too much. Often times the horse isn't trying to be disrespectful but is scared or in pain. Not saying your like that OP just giving my opinion. I'll step off my soapbox 
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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

The thing with laying down for respect, it isn't punishment per say, it's a way to make the horse feel weaker that the human, when they are layed down, they are submissive. This isn't a way to punish a horse for disrespecting, but rather to put the handler in control. When a horse is layed down they are completely venerable, and if you make a horse venerable to you, you are making them respect you. And if you get them layed down, and respect you, then you make that an experience that isn't scary,your horse will give you all the respect in the world.


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## Chevylover96 (Dec 9, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I think laying down for "respect" in most cases is unnecessary. I can see where laying down can be used as a handy trick to teach your horse but to lay a horse down for respect I personally don't like it. Laying down has to be done carefully by very experienced hands. Injury to both horse and handler can happen if done improperly. When people try to make a horse lay down cause it is "disrespectful" for whatever reason I wonder if the horse really associated the laying down with the incorrect behavior. If a horse isn't corrected 3 seconds after its wrong doing they don't usually associate being punished for their bad behavior. Punishment needs to be instantaneous and a horse can't instantly lay down. So unless its done properly by someone who actually knows what they are doing I imagine most people when trying to lay their horse down for respect don't achieve much or they scare the heck out of their horses. If it's done right I can see it being useful but I've trained some disrespectful or fearful horses and with time, patience and good solid ground work and riding they become great well mannered horses. I think some people misunderstand their horses body language and assume its disrespect too much. Often times the horse isn't trying to be disrespectful but is scared or in pain. Not saying your like that OP just giving my opinion. I'll step off my soapbox
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree completely. I just somehow always happen to get my hands on horses who LOVE to roll, so laying down becomes a fun, easy trick for both of us  I'm sure my horse sees tricks as magic treat buttons lol, if she gives me a kiss and I don't tell her how good she is, she always tries until I do! Too funny! 
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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

You are I think, confusing teaching a horse a trick, and using laying down as a training tool for really rank horses. The two are so far apart it is impossible to connect them.

Trick training one does not get down to teach respect.

Laying one down is.

And should not be done unless it is last resort, and should not be done in heat of moment of anger, but calmly and quietly.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> The thing with laying down for respect, it isn't punishment per say, it's a way to make the horse feel weaker that the human, when they are layed down, they are submissive. This isn't a way to punish a horse for disrespecting, but rather to put the handler in control. When a horse is layed down they are completely venerable, and if you make a horse venerable to you, you are making them respect you. And if you get them layed down, and respect you, then you make that an experience that isn't scary,your horse will give you all the respect in the world.


I get what your saying but I see too many people try to punish a horse by laying it down cause they can't control it for whatever reason. The way your using the lay down is probably the only logical reason outside of trick training I could ever see laying a horse down. But your an experienced trainer I'm betting by how you've described it and reading your other posts you know what your doing. There are too many people that try to do this and don't know what they are doing is what I'm getting at basically. 
Personally it's not for me but like I said if done correctly I'm sure it can be useful in it's own way.
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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> I get what your saying but I see too many people try to punish a horse by laying it down cause they can't control it for whatever reason. The way your using the lay down is probably the only logical reason outside of trick training I could ever see laying a horse down. But your an experienced trainer I'm betting by how you've described it and reading your other posts you know what your doing. There are too many people that try to do this and don't know what they are doing is what I'm getting at basically.
> Personally it's not for me but like I said if done correctly I'm sure it can be useful in it's own way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I understand where your coming from also. People tend to use certain methods in a very wrong way.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

There was an interesting article in Western Horseman on laying down a horse for respect, as Wanstrom is describing. There is science behind it. From what I remember, the process causes the horse to release endorphins (or at least I think it was endorphins), so it's a really good experience for them and speeds up the process of gaining the horse's respect.

But there is a huge caveat. The horse has to, in the end, go down willingly. If the horse is forced down, it's counter-productive (according to the article). This doesn't mean that ropes, etc... aren't part of the process when done correctly. It means the handler has to have very good feel about when to push the horse, and when the horse is about to yield.

I have never tried it myself because I've never needed to do it (and I'm really a hobbyist when it comes to training horses). But I believe there are people who know how to do it correctly, and it would be fantastic to observe.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Actually, heres a colt my hubby layed down right in the calving barn one night because he was being such a snot, kicking, biting, etc. He laid there for about an hour, and when we let him stand up, he had a totally different attitude. But like Peppy stated, make sure you know what your doing if you ever try it!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In the right hands which should be experienced this can be a handy 'tool' in certain circumstances.

There is a bit more to it than teaching a horse respect.

When a horse is lying down it is at its most vulnerable. Being forced down by a man and when nothing terrible happens, they look at the handler in a different way.

I do not like ropes to get the horse down, there are better ways.

Paul Williams, an Australian working in the racing industry in Japan, uses what he calls 'The Tap' to break all the horses he is dealing with. 
This guy is a brilliant rider, he deals with a lot of horses and, using this method, he can start many more than the conventional way.
HYBRID HORSEMANSHIP

He also deals with many horses that are getting the reputation of being 'difficult'. 

In Japan there are more horses bred for racing than there are training places so, by getting them going well gives them a better chance.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think it depends on the horse and depends on the rider/owner. I think training it as a trick is totally different than using it for "respect". I don't really buy the idea that you lay a horse down and make it submissive because equine submissive displays are very different than canine displays. Ie. a dog lies down and shows its belly as an ultimate vulnerable display of submission. example, a dog enters a new social group and shows submission to the lead animal by rolling on its back. If it does not they will fight and jockey for position via a physical altercation. A horse does not enter a new social group and roll on its back to show submission, the horse moves its feet. 

What laying a horse down does it put in a very vulnerable position. Eons of evolution have told the horse that if it lies down with a predator near by its going to die. So, when we lay a horse down (particularly a rank horse with no trust for humans/respect) we are saying "we are a predator, we could kill you at any moment and yet we do not. So you should mind your ps and qs". Laying a horse down this way is called "flooding" in behavioral training/psychology. It can work or it can backfire horribly. 

Laying a horse down as a trick. If thats your interest go for it. Laying a horse down for "respect" go with great caution. You are getting into a horses head in a very deep way in my book and if you don't tread softly you can really mess them up. I also don't think you should have to lay a horse down multiple times. If you are in the position of having to lay a horse down multiple times for respect then something is not being communicated well in my opinion.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Here's a crazy thought:

I had a friend of mine get in a horrible car accident. She was pinned beneath her car. She said a sort of calmness came over her, and she felt no pain. She accepted her "fate" and laid there. Well, she lived, but when she accepted she was "about to die" and there was nothing she could do about it, she was no longer in pain and felt no need to struggle. She gave up.

I know in many animals, when they are about to be killed by a predator, they will go limp and stop struggling. Horses are prey animals and regularly get killed by things. It isn't crazy to believe that, before death, they recieve a rush of endorphins. The mercy of nature. Maybe laying a horse down doesn't teach "respect", but puts the horse into the "I'm about to die" state, which they don't really wake up from even after they stand back up.

I had a personal experience with a horse who was extremely rank. As a last ditch effort, they laid him down. He did a 180 in personality. He was quiet, dull, slow, and seemed to be in a "haze" around people. But, after several months, he "woke up". He "woke up" like an animal actually would free itself from the jaws of a predator. He ran. He was unridable. Bolted uncontrolably and recklessly.

It took several months of retraining to settle him back down and have him trust people again. This time, the training stuck. He's a nice horse today, due to the training he recieved after being laid down rather then the laying down.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I've used it as a last resort, and would use it again as a last resort. 

Unfortunately, it's becoming another fad. I've gotten a couple calls since western horseman came out with their story and the dude from Japan's videos got so popular from people wanting me to lay their horse down. Of course I ask why. "So he'll respect me." Good grief. It's not a short cut. They don't get up having better turns and stops either. 

Put some miles on old Dobbin. It will do both the horse and rider good. (I had to stop saying a horse needed "wet saddle blankets" after somebody saw a lady up at the fairgrounds wrestling some soaked saddle blanket up onto her horse. When they asked why and offered a dry one, she credited me with the idea. Not everything you think you hear is a good idea.)

I almost dread seeing western horseman feature some interesting training technique because too many just blindly follow. Kind of like when they started featuring ranch hands from the flat hat/***** country. It just creates fads.


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