# Western Pleasure...*sigh* PLEASE READ EVERYBODY!!!!



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I have always qualified to go to the State 4-H Show and as I was reading the rules and stuff, I found out that you would be disqualified if your reins were behind your cinch. I was like WHAT?


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

BluMagic said:


> I have always qualified to go to the State 4-H Show and as I was reading the rules and stuff, I found out that you would be disqualified if your reins were behind your cinch. I was like WHAT?


Wow that's strange. That's just a wp rule, right? That's why I don't like wp anymore, some of the stuff about it makes me go :?: :?


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

Its ok here in the regular 4-H shows it just gets so technical it's hard. lol


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

Whats everybody else think?????


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

:? Thats so dumb becuase remember the peanut rollers? I think they looked dumb but it was a fad for a while. :?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I see you have read the Equss magazine article.

I show Quarter Horse WP and EP. The way that they get most horses to do a almost 4-beat lope is they hobble them or tie them down. I commenly see them bleeding horses, not feeding or watering just so the horse will be lethargic. Basically the horse who is the biggest and has the slowest lope and jog wins. But thats just what i see. Its a huge problem. I have gone to some recent shows and i have noticed that judges are being more picky. I also see draw reins used to tie down horses to force them into a slower lope. Its sickening.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I also go to state. Reins below the cinch? What? People who win WP at state have their reins well below the cinch. But thats in Ohio


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

About the headset:

A Level top line is usually the standard.
It's defined as:
-The highest acceptable point being eyes level with withers
-The lowest acceptable point being ear tips level with withers.

The in between area is a cushion for different horses having different comfort zones, and the usual bit of bobbing at the lope. 

It's also important to remember that a lot of these "rules" are more like suggestions. You won't get d-qed just because your horse doesn't have the best top line. The rules are guidelines for the judges to base their choices on, not mandates for proper training and exhibition. 

Vital Signs are Good is one of the best pleasure horses today. But who knows, maybe on some of the judge cards, points may have been deducted for a slightly low head. It's possible.

With regards to rein pressure, I'm not sure where you're getting that. Maybe you're reading the USEF book instead of the aqha's?

_These video's were released in 2003 and they outline the breed standard. You might find them helpful. They were made by the head judge in the AQHA and many other top pleasure experts._

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 1

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 2

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 3

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 4

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 5

The AQHA Western Pleasure Horse video part 6

_Also, there's another pleasure improvement video in the making that should be released sometime in the fall of this year. It's expected to be a remake of these videos but with a better production value and certain updates on what an acceptable pleasure horse should exhibit. _

I hope that helps everyone!


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> About the headset:
> 
> It's also important to remember that a lot of these "rules" are more like suggestions. You won't get d-qed just because your horse doesn't have the best top line. The rules are guidelines for the judges to base their choices on, not mandates for proper training and exhibition.
> 
> ...


Tim, I am reading the 2008 official AQHA handbook of rules and regulations, and these are the exact words-

(I) Faults the WILL BE cause for disqualification are-
1-Head carried to low (tip of ear consistantly below the withers

THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION! IT IS A RULE AND IF THEY WERE FOLLOWING THE RULE BOOK HORSES WITh THEIR EARS BELOW THE WITHERS WOULD BE DQED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That rule is a cause for DISQUALIFICATION! Read the AQHA rule book, you will see that light contact is to be maintained!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

quixotesoxs said:


> (I) Faults the WILL BE cause for disqualification are-
> 1-Head carried to low (tip of ear consistantly below the withers
> 
> THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION! IT IS A RULE AND IF THEY WERE FOLLOWING THE RULE BOOK HORSES WITh THEIR EARS BELOW THE WITHERS WOULD BE DQED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


Geez, don't have to get so worked up. I thought you didn't even show Western Pleasure.

Anyways, your information is correct but slightly misused. I've read the rulebook and I just read it again to check; here is what I found: in Part (K) head cairrage with the eartips below the withers is to be scored according to severity. Part (I) is slightly different. It states that _consistent_ cairrage of the head with eartips below the withers is grounds for disqualification (except for in novice classes). This means that for the entire class, or possibly for a number of classes, your horse would exhibit a very low headset _which is actually so rare to be seen these days, I can't even find a picture of what I'm thinking about._ I can only bring to mind a few cases where if the show were judged on AQHA standards, the rider would be d-qed for this.

Still, these are judging guidelines. It's up to the judge to decide who gets scored off for this and who gets disqualified.



quixotesoxs said:


> ...you will see that light contact is to be maintained!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:


Yes, I know... I did not contest this to begin with. But light contact is one of those gray areas. What constitutes light contact anyway? I'd be willing to bet that Kristen Glover (or whoever is riding Vital Signs in that photo) could twitch their reins and he would respond to it. They are that sensitive. So you get this debate over light contact and what it constitutes. I'm not saying she wasn't penalized for that in this photo. She very well may have been, but it's not a very heavy penalization in any case due to the discrepancy. It's also not listed as a disqualifiable offense. 

I'm really not arguing with you so much as pointing out that it's really not so much of a big deal anymore. If you knew how far things have come since the 1990's you'd be feeling the same as me probably. It was god awful back then, and I'm glad I wasn't old enought to actually learn that garbage.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

My 4-H book is very clear about WP. The reins can't be a straight line to the hands from bit or w/ the lowest point below the horses shoulder.....however I only found that rule in 2 and 3 y/o pleasure, and everywhere else it says that reins should maintain light contact w/ mouth.....but it is only 4-H so they prolly won't be too strict...... it also says you get severly penalized for having a 4-beat gait at the lope


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

mlkarel2010 said:


> it also says you get severly penalized for having a 4-beat gait at the lope


Well, yea. It's not really a lope if it's 4 beat. Some judges will actually consider it a break of gait.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

i'm just wondering if the really really slow lopes would be considered a 4-beat gait


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Not really. A 4 beat is different than a lope. You can slow the lope down as much as you want but as long as it's still a 3 beat, you cant call it a four beat. The 4 beat is when the horse is really loping in front but jogging in the back. It's pretty obvious and really ugly.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Ok, gotchya..... earlier it talked about an almost 4-beat lope.... got me confused..... and it doesn't help that I haven't seen a horse advanced enough in WP to do a very slow lope at all......


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

I have been showing in QH for 12 years, and my family has since the 70s, so I have seen many different forms that the breed has gone through. Currently, especially in areas where the competition is high, the quality of the horses has improved dramatically. Delete - it has been many years since I have seen the cruel training methods you are describing, and I have never seen them used on the current style of WP horses - at least not on the horses that are winning at the big shows. Where you get into all that junk is when people try to force a horse that cannot physically perform the way the judges want the horse to move, and the trainers try to force them to do it. At the smaller QH shows I am sure it occurs. But when these horses get to the big ones they can't compete, and they are the ones giving WP horses and trainers the bad name.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

As for that photo of Kristen and Lucy, yes her head is a little low. However, that is only one part of the stride. The head carriage does not vary much at the jog, but at the lope, especially with a horse like this one that has great use of her hind end and roundness, the head moves. Plus, with her build that is where her head naturally goes. The other part of this is that the head set is only one part of the equation. The biggest part is the movement, and I can promise you that this mare has one of the cleanest gaits and most efficient use of her body out there today. You can really see this in the western riding class, where she has the highest score in Am WR at the world show recoreded - you can't do that without exceptional movement.

As far as light rein contact - I have always intepreted this as not having to move your hand. If you can leave your hand in one position throughout the class, you have adequate control over your horse. However, if Kristen had to raise her hand up multiple inches, then she should shorten her reins. This is why these horses have spur stops. To control their movement without getting in their face.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> quixotesoxs said:
> 
> 
> > (I) Faults the WILL BE cause for disqualification are-
> ...


Sorry I got a little worked up, just kind of ****es me off. I used to do western pleasure, but then I woke up one day and realized that going 1 mph around an arena with my horses head dragging the ground isn't "pleasurable"

I just don't see the fun in it any more. You can argue with me all you want-Western Pleasure horses today do not look the least bit natural. Period. It's rediculous. And I'm not trying to be rude at all, it's just something I feel very strongly about. [/i]


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I meant reins _behind_ the cinch. Like behind the horse's shoulders.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

that type of rein position is different for me..... grr, I wish my scanner worked so I could show you.... it shows acceptable hand positions as well as rein slope... but it says the reins shouldn't drape and have a point lower than the shoulder


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I don't think having the head below the shoulders is that bad actually. Look at the wild stallions: they herd mares like they are trying to eat grass! lol. And some horses naturally have a low head set.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

BluMagic said:


> I don't think having the head below the shoulders is that bad actually. Look at the wild stallions: they herd mares like they are trying to eat grass! lol. And some horses naturally have a low head set.


Yes, but most of those headsets are forced. You won't see a horse loping around in circles for no reason with their head dragging the ground.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm not really big into horse shows so the horses I ride have a lot of freedom but still give vertically...... but it's not good when people force their horses to have low heads..... you think they would perform better at their own head position that is the most comfortable for them


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Well, read sandsarita's posts. That kind of peanut rolling just doesn't win shows anymore. The only people who still do it are the ones who live in the middle of nowhere and are really set in their ways.

As for the excitement of pleasure, it's more about training. The pleasure class is supposed to be the foundation for a successful horse. It's also highly competive and some people have called it "under saddle halter". For some reason I just really like it and I think it's the only way to be successful in other western events.


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## Deb (Feb 12, 2008)

I've never much bothered with WP, but it seems to me that the picture that you are trying to present with this style of riding is a horse that can comfortably cover the hills and valleys of a prairies as they search for cattle or whatever else cowboys do. Seems to me that it would be awfully tiring for a horse to do that with its head as low as the WP quarter horse classes that I've seen. Because I have Arabs I am more familiar with their shows and the Arabs that I've seen in WP generally carry their heads a _teeny _bit higher but with the face on the vertical. I guess this extreme low head set was arrived at like everything else i.e. his horses head is low, I'll bet I can get my horses head lower, and so on and so on...


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

For the horses that are actually bred and have the conformation to do WP, that head set is NOT!! unnatural. I have had numerous babies, including a current one, that within the first week under saddle guess where the head is? The ear tips are under the level of the withers. When they are in the pasture, that is where their head is. That is where it is made to be based on their conformation. You can't say that a horse that has less than 5 rides on them that is carrying their head like that is being made to. Especially when all they are being ridden in is a halter and have had nothing else on them.

Here is a photo of my current horse on the lunge line. He has never had a martingale, draw reins, hobbles, or has been hanged in his entire life. Look where his head is when he's jogging and then at his conformation. That is where it is meant to be and to force that head up for him would be unnatural.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

Ok, look at the wp horses back in the day. Look at the headset, if wp horses heads were kept there I would be ok with it. And the reins have a reasonable amount of contact without gripping at the mouth. That would be a horse that could go on to excel in any discipline. This is what a wp horse should be. And I know what wp is like, I have watched wp at the big shows, you cannot possibly tell me the top horses are at their "natural headsets," thats bs. Just watch the practice pen at congress before a wp class, horses heads are ALL getting cranked down. So don't tell me stuff like "the top level people are following the rules" because it's worst at the top levels, your blind if you don't see that. And Tim, you said the fun in western pleasure was the training. Explain?


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Those good old days, lemme tell ya... There's nothing wrong with the headset now. 

Also, Congress is open to anyone. You don't have to qualify.
You're right though, they do get cranked, but there are horses that will do it naturally and they are the best. I'm not saying you don't have to crank them too every now and then, but it's usually less cranking and more adjusting. 

The training is a challenge. Getting these horses perfect is like building an instrument. There's so much fine tuning and perfecting that goes into every great horse. And if you don't like to train, you might as well give it up anyways, because riding horses is 75% training at least. With training, you can feel like you're accomplishing something and it makes for a great project. There's contentment in purpose. 

Incidentally, may I ask, what's your beef? You don't show pleasure, and frankly, those of who do just take it for what it is and do our own thing. We're not all so worried about what the others are doing, but we try to keep an eye out to recognize trends. The rulebook isn't everything you know.

Really, watch this and tell me that these horses are a disgrace. They all have such a nice way of going.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

First off, things evolve. There is not one class in the QH industry that has not changed over the past 30 years, or even the past 10 years. And for the current WP horses not excelling in other events. Well, take a look at the horse you posted on the front page. Lucy and Kristen won the all-around amateur this year, has won the western riding world championship multipletimes, and also placed in the top 5 at the world in Showmanship and Horsemanship. That is going on and excelling in multiple classes. That mare is also allowed out in the pasture and multiple months off per year to relax. If you have ever been around her or the other horses that Kristen has ridden you would see that they are all happy horses who enjoy their job. Not every horse is that way, but hers sure are.

As far as "cranking" on a horse goes, you will see that in any class, from HUS to working hunter to horsemanship to reining, cutting, roping, and halter, heck even the top dressage horses. To me there is a big difference between "cranking" on a horse to train and using a martingale and draw reins properly versus making a horse bleed with spurs, hobbling them and then making them lope, and hanging their heads overnight. A big difference, and the horse world has moved away from it, especially in the top horses that are winning at the world and Congress. And as tim pointed out, there is a wide range of horses at Congress from those that have no chance in he!! of placing vs those that are almost guaranteed. A huge difference.

I've got to go to work. I'll be back to continue the discussion later.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I go to big time shows. Some of my best friends have shown in congress and done well. I see them hobble their horses i see them tie their horses down. That mechanical lope where their legs don't move hardly 4inch apart isn't natural. It must be taught, and that way is by hobbleing or other methods. I personally don't show Congress level, but i go and watch. I see those big english monsters who all they know is to extend. I see those huge wp horses that look lame when they move. You cannot tell me that movement is natural. There is no way.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

sandsarita said:


> As far as "cranking" on a horse goes, you will see that in any class, from HUS to working hunter to horsemanship to reining, cutting, roping, and halter, heck even the top dressage horses.


First of all, I do cutting and we never, EVER, crank our horses heads down. You CAN'T use draw reins on a good cutter, that would ruin them because they can't have contact with their mouths constantly, when you train a cutter you use hardly any rein and teach them to relax and move off your leg. You may occasionally see a running martingale on a really high headed horse. Yes, horses do get cranked on outside of WP. But that video tim put up, it almost made me sick. You cannot tell me when those horses are out in a pasture that is how they naturally go. There was one horse in there that had his nose dragging the ground!!! I don't see the fun in forcing those horses to go THAT friggen slow. That is not a naturally slow lope that is forced. A wp horse is supposed to be a horse that is trained with the potential of doing anything. Can you imagine trying to rope a cow going that slow!!! Or cut! Or jump! Or anything AT ALL USEFUL! NO! Theres no way. Just imagine one of those horses doing THIS- http://youtube.com/watch?v=p262ArQNljw

And tim, as for your question, I do cutting, reining, contesting, all-aroung, hunter, jumper, dressage, ect. And I have done wp also. But I would never make my horse do anything NEAR as artificial as that video showed. I have been unstructed by Rusty Dare and Sid Griffith. I have seen the terrible things they do and their horses are winning, so don't even tell me that stuff doesn't happen at the upper levels, because it does and I have witnessed it first hand. My beef is those are not pleasureable horses to ride, and people are destroying those horses. Look at the video of senior western pleasure, those horses don't love their job! Then look at the video of Pistol, don't tell me she doesn't love that! Cutters aren't forced to do their jobs, you can't force them. They turn with the cow on their own, if they don't do it the first day of training they won't be used as cutters. period. that's whats do great about it, and that's what i hate about wp. That video is a discrace and those horses don't have a nice way of moving. It's a man-made extremely slow half trot-half lope and those horses would be trash if they were tried for any other discipine.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Halter? I think not.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> I personally don't show Congress level, but i go and watch. I see those big english monsters who all they know is to extend. I see those huge wp horses that look lame when they move. You cannot tell me that movement is natural. There is no way.


You're looking at the wrong horses. Thats really all there is to it.



quixotesoxs said:


> But that video tim put up, it almost made me sick. You cannot tell me when those horses are out in a pasture that is how they naturally go. There was one horse in there that had his nose dragging the ground!!! I don't see the fun in forcing those horses to go THAT friggen slow. That is not a naturally slow lope that is forced. A wp horse is supposed to be a horse that is trained with the potential of doing anything. Can you imagine trying to rope a cow going that slow!!! Or cut! Or jump! Or anything AT ALL USEFUL! NO!
> 
> My beef is those are not pleasureable horses to ride, and people are destroying those horses. Look at the video of senior western pleasure, those horses don't love their job! Then look at the video of Pistol, don't tell me she doesn't love that! Cutters aren't forced to do their jobs, you can't force them. They turn with the cow on their own, if they don't do it the first day of training they won't be used as cutters. period. that's whats do great about it, and that's what i hate about wp. That video is a discrace and those horses don't have a nice way of moving. It's a man-made extremely slow half trot-half lope and those horses would be trash if they were tried for any other discipine.


You know what your problem is? You're somehow managing to mix up WORK with PLEASURE. It's really not at all surprising from someone who becomes so outraged at the thought of rule breaking.

If I tried to get the same amount of fine control from one of your infallable cutters that the pleasure horses afford me, I'd have my work seriously cut out for me. It's simply not the same and since some people don't really appreciate differences, what more can I say?

I never understood horse people like you, and I guess I never will. You can fume and rage about it all you want but as long as you leave pleasure to the people and horses who actually understand it and enjoy it, I'll have no problem with you.


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

I read the Equus article too, it said for Quarter Horse shows the rules are a lope should be a smooth three-beat, not four-beat. I think a four-beat looks so mechanical. I like the lower headsets I think they should lower the headset rules. I like the lady's horse in the pictures headset I think that is perfect if the can keep it consistent but it is against the rules.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

First - I want to say that we each have our own opinions, and on a forum nobody is going to completely change someone elses. However, I try to respect what other people have to say, but my opinions are often very different from others based on what I have done myself and have seen. We come from different horse backgrounds, live in different areas, compete in different classes, what we think is going to be different. 

Secondly, what I mean by "cranking" on a horse is training on a horse hard for whatever event you are trying to do. I did not mean that every one of those styles of riding have uses for draw reins, etc. Each discipline has their own training aids that can be used correctly or incorectly. Draw reins, for WP, is just a common example. I am sure that even your cutting horses are schooled on hard at times when they make a mistake or to tune them up for a show. It's just in a different manner than how you "crank" on a WP horse.

Third - the good WP horses know how to extend. I have listened to and seen Troy Compton and David Dillon et al hand gallop their horses around the warm up pen, long trot them, and track cattle. It helps with overall conditioning and letting them use their body properly. These same horses are also taught how to come back and collect down to the WP gait.

Fourth - these horses can do other events, including ones that you say can never happen. The mare in my avatar has as many points in western events, including WP, as she does in English. At the buckskin world she has placed in multiple events including Hunter Hack, HUS, Eq, Showmanship, Halter, WP, horsemanship, and trail. I have had a trainer make her sides bleed with spurs and tie her down - we left him that same day. And guess what - the trainer that I switched to did not use any of those methods and her movement improved, our placings went up and we made it to QH world. The other buckskin that I posted in here on the lunge line is by Passing it Along (full brother to Barpassers Image, sired numerous good WP horses) and out of a mare that has put 5 horses to the AQHA world show in roping with 4 of them placing in the top 10 and one horse to the youth world in trail. This guy was started as a WP horse during his 2 and 3year old year. I decided to show another horse that I preferred, so he was roped off of for multiple years and still is today. I decided to get him back out, am putting the basics back on him for WP, with the goal of doing all-around. He is being jumped for conditioning and to help with using his hind end. Is he going to win the AQHA world show? no, but he will get some points in WP among other events when he's finished and will have a good chance to place at buckskin world. This is just a couple of my own horses, but is an example that these horses can do multiple events.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

I haven't read that article in a while, but if I remember correctly the study was done before the rule change in QH where they started asking for the lope with forward motion. The change after this rule wasn't drastic, but it visibly helped with the way the horses moved, and I am sure it would change the results of the study if it was done today.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

Sandsarita is right, we are all subject to our own opinions. tim, i find what you said to be a bit rude. i am just giving my opinion and views on this, im not saying anybody had to even read what i am saying. 

Yes, there is cranking in any event. and yes, a lot of trainers are very hard on cutters. but i find cutting a lot more natural and i think the horses enjoy it more that western pleasure, and i you dont think so, thats fine because you won't change my mind as i have witnessed both event extensively first hand. And by the way, the most recent study was done after the rule change, and they were discouraged after getting similar results. 

And ps, i apoligize for using a curse word in my earlier post. i had no reason to do this as this is a forum for people of all ages and it won't happen again. and just a reminder to you, tim, nobody on here wants to be ridiculed, i am just pointing out what i think is wrong with western pleasure and disagreed with your statements. i didnt say anything rude about you, but we are all going to disagree. you are subject to your opinion and i am subject to mine, it doesnt mean either of us are right or wrong.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> If I tried to get the same amount of fine control from one of your infallable cutters that the pleasure horses afford me, I'd have my work seriously cut out for me. It's simply not the same and since some people don't really appreciate differences, what more can I say?


Ok, you got mad at me for critisizing wp, so don't critisize cutters unless you don't want me to critisize wp. 

Have you ever ridden a cutter? Do you know how cutters control a cutting horse? Cutting horses are some of the quietest horses you will ever been around. They are taught to be 100% quiet in a herd if cattle when we have no contact with their mouth. The first time I rode a cutter, I felt as though I had a ton of control. All I had to do was take my legs of the horse's side and they would stop. If I move my hand an inch to the right, my horse turns right. That's how cutters are trained. And yes, I understand how a wp horse is trained and yes you don't have to use very many visible cues. But cutters have a wonderful amount of control and for the most part are extremely relaxed and easy to ride animals. My best cutting horse is also my best trail horse and my most well trained horse, he never spooks (even when a humongous longhorn is looking to eat his lunch!) He just does his job. About 90% of cutters are that way.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

sandsarita said:


> I haven't read that article in a while, but if I remember correctly the study was done before the rule change in qh where they started asking for the lope with forward motion. The change after this rule wasn't drastic, but it visibly helped with the way the horses moved, and I am sure it would change the results of the study if it was done today.


That atricle just came out o.0


Tim. I suppose i worded it wrong. I didn't mean every horse. Maybe i am looking at the wrong horses. I don't know. But i can tell you to have seen horses being trained with hobbles and being forced into un-natural movement. In my local circut there is a horse that dosen't moves it legs more then hardy 5inch out (not sure the exact but thats what it looked like). She tried to tell me it was natural. Am i just ignorant or something, or am i right in thinking that that is not natural?


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

The article came out in October of 2007, used only 4 horses for 5 strides at each gait. This is not enough for very good statistical power to really prove what they were looking for in the article, to objectively evaluate the kinematics (how they move) of the WP horse. It also did not say which horses were used - were they the top WP horses, or the average ones? Also, the article states that "Kinematic studies of western pleasure horses are limited and were performed before current changes in the stock breed association judging standards on the western pleasure gaits" So yes, things have changed somewhat since the study was performed (takes many years to get research out - I just got something published this month that I did in 2002 - 04). This article is not enough to convince me to change how I ride my horses or how I view the class.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm not big into the big pleasure....even shows for that matter..... my opinion on pleasure is that it should be enjoyable and natural for both horse and rider....hence the "pleasure" part...... it shouldn't be on how slow a horse can go or how low its head can be or how loose the reins should be..... maybe they should make that a seperate area? idk, i think pleasure has gone beyond the basics of just having an easy, enjoyable, and natural ride.....


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I have been taught that the lope is three beats, the trot is two, and the walk is four.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

mlkarel2010 said:


> I'm not big into the big pleasure....even shows for that matter..... my opinion on pleasure is that it should be enjoyable and natural for both horse and rider....hence the "pleasure" part...... it shouldn't be on how slow a horse can go or how low its head can be or how loose the reins should be..... maybe they should make that a seperate area? idk, i think pleasure has gone beyond the basics of just having an easy, enjoyable, and natural ride.....


Yes, everyone has good intentions with the "natural" argument. There's just one problem. Every horse is natural. If we competed with horses that were largely untampered with, there'd be no reason to compete. How do you judge that? Why would you need to train the horse. Every horse would be the same. Do you know what I mean? You have to ask more from your horse for there to be any reason for showing. 

Also, it's really not about how slow a horse can go and how low it's head will hand. That's the most common generalization that people who are, like yourself, inexperienced in pleasure showing make about western. Not saying you're stupid or anything, I myself used to think that, but I've learned better.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> mlkarel2010 said:
> 
> 
> > There's just one problem. Every horse is natural. If we competed with horses that were largely untampered with, there'd be no reason to compete. How do you judge that? Why would you need to train the horse. Every horse would be the same. Do you know what I mean?quote]
> ...


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

You're quite correct. Pleasure is still the foundation though.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> You're quite correct. Pleasure is still the foundation though.


mmm...i beg to differ. it depends on what type of pleasure. If you mean getting a relaxed, responsive horse, then yes. But not training like the horses in the video you put up. I know no cutting trainers train their horses to do that stuff, or dressage, jumping, hunters, or contesting. Just sayin.....


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Well, if you want to be as good as you can be, and you want the most from your horse and you like to compete in multiple events at high powered shows you might want to make you horse look like the world show finalists... if you can.


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## quixotesoxs (Jan 19, 2008)

tim said:


> Well, if you want to be as good as you can be, and you want the most from your horse and you like to compete in multiple events at high powered shows you might want to make you horse look like the world show finalists... if you can.


Ok, fine. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I listed horses that can not be trained that way and I will never enjoy watching western pleasure. If you enjoy going that slow with your horses ears below their withers, go for it. If I trained one of my cutters that way, all the trainers at the shows would ask me what the heck I was doing and tell me I was ruining my horse. As for a dressage horse, jumper, contester, ect. It's up to you what you enjoy. I don't enjoy going that slow, I need a little excitement and I want to do something that really challenges me to be an excellent rider and that's what I enjoy.


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## Equina (Jul 28, 2007)

Oh boy, I don't even know if I want to get into this one! But I will.  

First, let met say that I have .001% experience with Western Pleasure. I'm an English rider...so don't take too much of what I have to say to heart.

I honestly laughed out loud when I clicked on the AQHA World Senior WP link after Tim described the horses as: "They all have such a nice way of going." It seemed goofy to me at first because (at the lope) the horse's bodies barely move while their heads bob up and down with short, choppy strides. 

But then, looking at the RIDERS, it does seem quite pleasurable! Such a smooth ride, the riders are barely moving! Looks like they're in a nice comfy, rocking La-Z-Boy! Plus, the horses are very highly trained and responsive. Looks like they have telepathy going on between horse & rider!

So basically, if I wanted a pleasurable ride, I would LOVE to ride a horse trained for Western Pleasure.

If I wanted an exciting ride, I'd want a big-strided, spunky thoroughbred to fly over a jumper course.

If I wanted a work-out, I'd want a stubborn, thick-sided Fjord who's been a lesson horse for too long!

If I wanted a beautifully moving horse to watch gallop around a pasture, I'd go for a black Arabian with long flowing mane and arched neck.

So, in my opinion, Western Pleasure seems kind of goofy to my English Rider eyes, but If I put myself in the shoes of a Western Pleasure rider, I can see how I could enjoy it.


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

Totally agree with Equina. It looks funky and unnatural to me and we have NOTHING like it in the UK - you'd be laughed out of the show ring! But I can see the point.

I have no desire to ride a horse who goes that way, but my mum probably would, she's a bit of a nervous rider and would love something comfy! :lol: 

I don't think I can ever critique anything like western pleasure or AQHA hunter under saddle because to me it all looks unpleasant, but I am slowly learning about it from people like you guys and I think I can at least tell when a horse is going nicely, albeit in that way, and when it is just hobbling around.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I'll admit I'm not very experienced with WP, especially big shows.... around here we only have WP for 4H kids and that's all about having fun and riding your horse easily and naturally... other than that it's normally rodeo w/ just roping, speed events, cutting and some reining...... I haven't seen or heard of any big shows around here at all.....

I agree with Equina and Kyani as well... I'm just a person that likes natural stuff in horses... I let them be how they are comfortable (not saying that they aren't comfortable with heads low), but the horses I ride aren't show-quality bred, so they normally keep their heads higher..... that's just my opinion...


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

To each is own.


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## Junebug (Jan 18, 2009)

it's not out of hand. its just how i like it


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

Its pretty obvious that the OP doesnt know too much about pleasure. (aside from what she has read in the rule book) ...since she posted a picture of one of the most incredible QHs of our time for others to rip apart. 

You have to remember that western pleasure isnt about headsets,draped reins and such. When it gets down to it, its all about the horse. The movement, the training, and the fact that this can be acheived without fighting the horse. The horse that you posted to get bashed has just impecable movement,an incredible mind, and is an amazing example of versatility. And the greatest acheivement? Being able to pass on those qualities through her colt.

I used to be the one hating on pleasure riders and horses until I decided to start traveling to AQHA shows as a spectator...just to see what it was all about and why they showed this way. I'd watch every second of the warm-up pen. It made me have a greater appreciation for the horses that I thought I hated. The amount of training, the amount of miles, and just the sheer beauty of a well tuned pleasure horse was hard to ignore. 

While they arent "natural" in the ring, their roots...the blank canvas IS natural. You can't teach good movement. A horse is either born with it or not born with it. The training is just a way to inhance it and make it more usable.

I mean, look at this horse. Its just gorgeous and she makes it look so effortless.You can even see, when they are loping on the rail, the contrast between her and the bay horse behind her. It seems to struggle a lot more to maintain its stride.




 

Now, I think western pleasure still has a long way to go...but it IS making progress. Personally, I'd like to see a more forward jog. 
I went to a very prestigious western pleasure show this past winter and couldnt have been happier with the judges. They judged and placed the best horses first. They were placing a better head carriage higher and more forward movement higher than the stereotype...as long as their movement was up there. Like I said before, its about movement FIRST.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

I've got to admit, it doesn't look effortless to me. It's almost certainly because I've never been exposed much to that kind of riding, but to me it looks laboured and hobbled. I know it's absolutely not the case, but that's still my instinctive reaction.

I suppose I see movement that's a little larger as more 'natural'; it's somehow in my head that when the horse is moving freely and well their bodies and legs will be moving here and there a bit.


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## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

I agree with Buckedoff. I try to stay away from these discussions as they become more flaming than helpful. Not to offend anyone, but those that say you don’t know that much about Western pleasure are the ones that seem to have the most problem with it. I think if you studied it or became more aware of how the horse is moving and why it’s moving the way it is you’d be more open to it. Books are great but real life experience is priceless. 
I use the example of a Tennessee walking horse. My friend shows 2 of them and before I knew what to look for I saw all of the movement as a pace. Once I was shown how to analyze the gate I then saw how it wasn’t a pace but each foot actually leaving the ground at a different time. It shows how education makes a difference

Now I do agree that some move artificial and have their heads too low but I have to say the one posted above is a great mover and should not be used as an example of poor western pleasure.

Also some horses prefer to go slow and I know of one horse in particular that the more you try to raise its head the lower it goes.

Everyone is going to have different opinions on this, all I ask is that you learn more about it before you bash it.


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## Siggav (Nov 21, 2008)

I can very much understand why people want smooth comfortable gaits. I also want speed on top of that which is why I love gaited horses. Nothing beats a fast smooth rack or single foot or tölt or.. (why do they have so many names?) 

The WP horses look really weird to me but it doesn't bother me that other people ride like that as long as I'm not forced to do it.


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

There is already a thread in Western Riding about WP if you wish to bash it.
There are also very informative posts there.

To the OP- if you don't like it, don't do it, and don't complain and rant about those who do.


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## shermanismybaby3006 (Oct 10, 2008)

westernpleasure27 said:


> there is already a thread in western riding about wp if you wish to bash it.
> There are also very informative posts there.
> 
> To the op- if you don't like it, don't do it, and don't complain and rant about those who do.


exactly!!!!!!!!


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

Just to cool things off here. This thread was started a YEAR ago and somehow got dug up out of the archives. Please let's not hammer this one. I'm not sure if the OP is still active here.

Lets just let this thread die a slow peaceful death and keep the wp discussions in the current thread you mentioned.


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## BuckOff41570 (Nov 15, 2008)

Dumas'_Grrrl said:


> Just to cool things off here. This thread was started a YEAR ago and somehow got dug up out of the archives. Please let's not hammer this one. I'm not sure if the OP is still active here.
> 
> Lets just let this thread die a slow peaceful death and keep the wp discussions in the current thread you mentioned.


wow..i didnt realize it was that old.I hate it when old thread are bought back to life...it always confuses me!


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## sorelhorse (Feb 16, 2009)

its just the style know adays...(SP?) 
i know that not all horse with there heads at the withers dont win...


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## Movinlownslow (Jan 20, 2008)

you know this same argument, has probably been going on sense western pleasure started? All because someone disagrees, or wants their opinion heard out a crossed the mountain tops, or because all they see is the horses who have been trained wrong. 

all i have to say, is when you can make a jumper, cutter, barrel horse, ect. drive up in their back end to lope like western pleasure horses do with a lose rein, then by all means complain, hate, and whine. 


i've been showing western pleasure for some time now, and yeah i've seen things that have made me sick. but that isn't every western pleasure person. and i have to say my seven year western pleasure horse who's a big time show horse, lopes like he's in the pen in the pasture 98% of the time, and carries his head low even in his stall. so IT IS natural for him.


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## kershkova (Jun 25, 2008)

my horses ears are naturaly below the withers cus he was bred for it.l he also has a very slow ganits and he is not torcherd but i can game him too see not all horses are forsed some are natural


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## Junebug (Jan 18, 2009)

Okay seriously this is ****ing me off how people say its "effortless" that is tottaly NOT true. t looks effortless when you run around in a arena uncontolable. My horse spent 6 years in training to get it to the point where it is at now , now tell me that has to have some sort of time and $$$$ and how dare you critizie me and these people who ride in hunt seat and western pleasure they probably have been working their A$$ off just to have a sense of pride in their horse and to disciple them in something that is way more up to date than barrels or jumping. They obisously know whats in style. Oh and that girl with Vital Signs are Good has spent years and years to get to the pont where she is at so dont ever bash someone who has made and acomplishment. Your obisouly jealous.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Hmm this thread seems to have lost any possibility for being educational. 
I'm kind of disappointed.


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## cowgurlskikass (Feb 23, 2009)

If that horses reins were any looser, she would trip over them :-/


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## Got2Gallop (Oct 22, 2007)

No horse would go the way a "Western Pleasure" horse goes either on their own or on the trail. It's a show ring creation period and I personally will never train a horse or show a horse in western pleasure because I think it looks totally unnatural and forced. That's just my opinion.


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