# Dilute Draft Stallions in UK?



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

are you actualy breeding for anything other than a pretty colour?!


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

I am in a breeding program for the Sugarbush drafts. Because my filly has an F-SDHR dam and WB sire I need to have her covered by a draft to produce a sugarbush foal, a pretty colour would be a huge bonus 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

so your breeding a mutt essentialy. The sugarbush draft is not a breed.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> so your breeding a mutt essentialy. The sugarbush draft is not a breed.


I must say, that's rather rude. If you look up any dictionary for "purebred" you will get this;

— adj
denoting a pure strain obtained through many generations 
of controlled breeding for desirable traits

So in effect breeding selected horses together to produce the same characteristics every time...i.e breeding true. 

It takes 5 generations of bred true horses to create a breed. In the States these horses are already purebred.

The Sugarbush Draft IS a fully fledged breed... It may be a new breed but it is IN FACT a breed.

Granted in the UK we only have 2 eligible breeding mares (my filly and her dam) and we will need to go through selective breeding to create the bred true youngstock exact as in the States. We are being very very selective about the matches we make and if the youngstock make the grade or not. This will be helped later on when I can import a stallion from the original bloodlines but I will not do that until I have quality stock of the exact type to pair him with.

I suggest that if you have something rude to say, you just don't say it. I don't mind constructive criticism, but being mean is just that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think that Faye is being more blunt than rude
I cant see that these horses will ever be a recognised breed in the UK as all you are going to get is a cob or if you use some quality blood and use a bigger stallion then maybe a middle weight hunter/sport horse and there is no shortage of those in the UK - some amazing ones and some below average.
The problem with using a first cross draft stallion is that the offspring can go either way so maybe an Irish Draft would be a better choice


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

These horses will be more than just cobs or mid hunters. At first we have that possibility but I am we'll aware it may take me 10 years or more to get the breed correct to type and breeding true in the UK. My filly is 50% draft and could be considered a Maxi Cob or mid hunter as she is. I am looking at the heavy hunter category. I definitely see this breed being recognised in the UK. they recognise the Appaloosa's don't they? The Appaloosa breed is only 2-4 years older than the Sugarbush. I don't see recognition as a problem once the breed is properly established. I do see it taking many years though  but I'm fine with that.

I am looking at an Irish Draught and a Clydesdale stallion for this filly. Both of which are being assessed ATM to determine if they would be an approved match to produce a G1 sugarbush foal. Them the foal will be assessed to see if it makes the grade


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Freyannia said:


> These horses will be more than just cobs or mid hunters. At first we have that possibility but I am we'll aware it may take me 10 years or more to get the breed correct to type and breeding true in the UK. My filly is 50% draft and could be considered a Maxi Cob or mid hunter as she is. I am looking at the heavy hunter category. I definitely see this breed being recognised in the UK. they recognise the Appaloosa's don't they? The Appaloosa breed is only 2-4 years older than the Sugarbush. I don't see recognition as a problem once the breed is properly established. I do see it taking many years though  but I'm fine with that.
> 
> I am looking at an Irish Draught and a Clydesdale stallion for this filly. Both of which are being assessed ATM to determine if they would be an approved match to produce a G1 sugarbush foal. Them the foal will be assessed to see if it makes the grade


 The US appaloosa society was founded in 1938 and the UK established its own society in 1976 - but this wasnt the start of the 'breed' - they have been around for centuries. The Sugarbush didnt emerge in the US until the 1950s
If you use a Clydesdale depending on what draft cross your mare is you are likely to end of with something that looks like a draft horse - that is not a valid description of a quality heavyweight hunter. There are pure ID's competing at top level in heavyweight hunter classes so you'd do best to consider that breed or maybe a suffolk punch which is more compact and has better riding horse type conformation
I've had 2 horses that were TB stallion x Cleveland Bay (both mares) and one looked like a show riding horse (15.2) and the other almost like a pure Cleveland bay (16.3)
I dont know if you ever go to any auctions but if you did you would see many horses much like what you want to produce - they are commonplace in the UK and have been for years


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

The American Cream Draft was the first breed that popped to mind for me. Looks like they're actually champagne, not cream, though; not sure if that makes a difference to you  You're probably not likely to find one in your area, but could probably do shipped semen.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

My appologies, I was thinking of the AQHA, dunno why I said Appaloosa... Baby brain! Lol blame it on the pregnancy. Thanks for correcting me  the quarter horse registry was set up at the same time as the Sugarbush registry... Relatively speaking. Either way I am devoted to the breed 

I had thought about a Suffolk Punch now that you mention it! Haven't found one I liked as much as the ID and Clydie though. I have LOTS of time to decide though.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

verona1016 said:


> The American Cream Draft was the first breed that popped to mind for me. Looks like they're actually champagne, not cream, though; not sure if that makes a difference to you  You're probably not likely to find one in your area, but could probably do shipped semen.


This was a breed I was really interested in too... But I don't know the breed well, I would have to read into them a bit


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

" The American Quarter Horse became an official breed in 1940 when the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) was founded. It is the first breed of horse native to the United States, having formed over generations dating back to the 1600s in Colonial America. At first bred primarily for racing over short distances, the American Quarter Horse found a new role in the 1800s when it rose to prominence as the horse of choice for the burgeoning cattle industry in America." 

AQHA was founded in the 40's but they were bred for a LONG time before that. I guess doteing over registration papers was probably less important then founding and settling the country . The thing that I find admirable about AQHA is that they were bred with purpose in mind.. an fast, level headed, intelligent, strong and agile horse. I feel like they evolved into a breed of their own instead of breeding the heck out of some cute horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> " The American Quarter Horse became an official breed in 1940 when the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) was founded. It is the first breed of horse native to the United States, having formed over generations dating back to the 1600s in Colonial America. At first bred primarily for racing over short distances, the American Quarter Horse found a new role in the 1800s when it rose to prominence as the horse of choice for the burgeoning cattle industry in America."
> 
> AQHA was founded in the 40's but they were bred for a LONG time before that. I guess doteing over registration papers was probably less important then founding and settling the country . The thing that I find admirable about AQHA is that they were bred with purpose in mind.. an fast, level headed, intelligent, strong and agile horse. I feel like they evolved into a breed of their own instead of breeding the heck out of some cute horses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 My baby brain is in full force tonight! Lol 

I want to do this with the UK Sugarbush's. My goal is an all round horse, intelligent, strong and agile, gentle and calm but with get up and go if it is asked for. Personally I want to do some showing along the way but my plan is to build up a trekking centre that specialises in heavier horses and the RDA. These horses are perfect for that purpose. Very intelligent but calm 

They also cater to the budget owner too, hardy, good feet, good doers etc etc... Lots of careful and selective breeding but my end goal is SOOO worth it!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

There are hundreds of heavy cobs on the market at the moment, the vast majority end up in the meat wagon. 

The RDA dont tend to want many horses over 15hh as it makes getting people on and off them very difficult (I've worked with both RDA and PARA dressage)

They are Mutts, not some pedigree horses. you are breeding UK stock to WB's or Drafts just because they fit a description doess not make them a purebred. I had a purebred connemara who was often mistaken for a newforest pony, does not make him a newforest.

Finaly to officialy become a breed the registry that holds the certifcation rights must be registered with DAD-IS (The UN registry).

sugarbush is not a recognised breed.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

There are many all round horses, which is why I don't see much purpose in breeding them. Are AQHA types pretty versatile? Yes, you can find them in any discipline. Where they really excel is in western events/riding because they were BRED TO BE sturdy, cow smart, high endurance work horses. Not a bunch of random things splashed together and called an "all rounder".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> There are hundreds of heavy cobs on the market at the moment, the vast majority end up in the meat wagon.
> 
> The RDA dont tend to want many horses over 15hh as it makes getting people on and off them very difficult (I've worked with both RDA and PARA dressage)
> 
> ...


Ok, firstly there is no regulation I can find that says breeds MUST be registered with the DAD -IS. Infact there are breeds which arnt listed like the Brabent. Each country has the choice to use the system, they are not required to.

Secondly, as there are only 12 of the original horses left the breed is considered an extinct breed until 10 separate bloodlines are created from the foundation registered horses and the original horses. Foundation horses cant be counted so it needs to be 5th generation youngstock thatbare counted for seperate bloodlines. Once we get to that point the breed will move from "extinct" status to "endangered" status. As a breed classified as extinct it wouldn't show on the DAD-IS system.

Thirdly "mutt" refers to a mongrel dog. My horses are neither dogs nor mongrels as they are selectively bred and have recorded pedigrees. As I am at the beginning stages of re establishment sure, my horses will start off as cross breeds but they won't stay that way. How do you think we have so many different breeds in the first place?

Fourthly I asked if anyone knew of a dilute draft stallion. I did not ask if people would like to tell me that the breed I and several others are trying to re establish is a real breed. We know it is a breed and we are dedicated to bringing it back.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe 'mutt' is the wrong word to use since most UK show horses/ponies are types and not breeds - excepting the purebred natives etc of course and a lot of them had arabian blood bred into them over the years.
Faye is right though as anything you breed will not be seen in the UK as any different to the thousands of cobs, heavy riding horses already out there and sadly a lot are being sold for meat - loads of gypsy cob types being abandoned. 
The horse in my avatar is a cross between what was desbribed to me as a small clydesdale and an arab - larger pic below. She is almost like a mini clyde so I'm thinking if you put a draft cross to a clyde you are more likely to get something that looks like clyde and not what you are hoping for.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

I am aware that up until the breed is more established people are not likely to recognise it. This doesn't bother me. If the thought that no one would recognise them stopped breeders from breeding their chosen breed regardless of what country they were in then we wouldn't have the varied and diverse breeds that we do have all over the world. 

Eventually this breed will get the recognition that I think they deserve. I know that for every person who sees a Sugarbush draft and wants one there is at least one that thinks its a "Mutt", simply because they don't know about the breed, or they don't like draft types or some other reason. But that's their problem... Not mine 

The stallion below is the only remaining pure bred stallion from the original lines. Once my horses are breeding true we will be importing a stallion from his bloodlines to further improve the breed in the UK


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I guess I really don't understand the Subarbush thing, whether in the US or UK. However, no f1 breeding, will make a purebred anything. It does indeed, take tons of horses, generations of breeding and more time and money than most humans have, to make a breed which is breeding true. Along the way, hundreds will probably have to be culled. 

You can find many Gypsy Cobs in the UK, which are of dilute colouring. Those from reliable breeders, will have a known background and will have been DNA'd. I know of a few. However, I don't see how breeding to one, will make a foundation or otherwise, Sugarbush breed. I guess in my mind, whether correctly or not, I had the idea that Sugarbush horses were Appy coloured Percherons. Come to think of it, there are some very good Appy coloured Gypsies in the UK.

Lizzie


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'd say if you crossed an appy to a percheron, suffolk punch, Boulonnaise or similar you would get a horse that looked just like this - but if you bred two and then crossbred them with each other you could get something much lighter or much heavier - eg more like the foundation draft breed
It would be several lifetimes to get it right.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Sugarbush drafts are 
sugarbush x sugarbush 
or 
sugarbush x stonewall sport horse 
or 
stonewall sport horse x percheron or other approved draft stallion (must be individually approved). 

That is only temporary as there are nly 12 purebred horses left we are trying to build the breed back up. By G5-8 (depending on wether we have reached our ideal type once again and have enough horses registered) the Studbook will again close and there will be no cross breeding. 

Gypsy cobs are not an approvable breed as they are very different dimensionally to the Sugarbush and are much to small. 

The Sugarbush Draft comes in all Lp patterns including solid. They do not need to be spotty, it isn't about the coat colour it is the horse underneath. The riding draft. I just happened to like dilutes and if I had a chance of an approvable dilute stallion as long as it made a good match to my girl I would take it.

No horses will be culled. That is a very strange thing to say. If they don't make the grade then the colts will be gelded and the fillies won't be registered but they won't be culled.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Suffolk Punch is a very ancient breed and one thats on the endangered list. The Cleveland Bay is in the same position - why not put your efforts into preserving an existing historic british horse rather than trying to preserve a very modern US one?


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

True Jaydee, however the purebred SDHR horses in the states DO breed true. It is a goal for me to work towards. As I said before isn't all about the colour it is about the conformation, temperament, health, ability etc etc etc lots of factors at play


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.

Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The Suffolk Punch is a very ancient breed and one thats on the endangered list. The Cleveland Bay is in the same position - why not put your efforts into preserving an existing historic british horse rather than trying to preserve a very modern US one?


Partially because the Sugarbush is my perfect breed for many reasons. Partly because I originally wanted to focus on Clydesdales and Suffolks but as they have been soo in bred after the war there are a LOT of health issues there that you would need to cross breed to attempt to improve and this wouldn't be allowed. The Sugarbush has been very very very carefully bred and the SDHR horses at this point in Time have shown no abnormalities at all like the Clydesdale etc have.

The Cleveland bay is reaching safe parameters now and they used the same method to save their breed as we are using for the Sugarbush Draft.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

'Culled', as in being removed from the breeding stock of a given breed. NOT killed, as you seem to think I meant.

Incidentally, while most Gypsy Cobs/Horses, are under 15hh, there are plenty of taller ones around. 

If I were trying to recreate the Sugarbushes, I'd probably be trying to stick to breeding to quality Percherons, since to me anyway, that is what they most resemble. If trying to add Appy colouring, then I'd take the best Percherons and breed them to the best Appaloosas or drafts with Appy colouring, I could find.

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.
> 
> Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...


12 pure bred horses left yes. And yes they have approved 40 or so foundation horses that met at the very least 70% of the ideal. They will not be approving any more foundation horses, they have hundreds of people put forward horses for foundation approval and more than 2/3 were turned away as they were not within the required parameters for the breed. This is hardly "dang near anything". This is exactly the same method that the Cleveland bays used to save their breed.

Again colour is a bonus but it isn't about colour, it's the horse underneath.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

FeatheredFeet said:


> 'Culled', as in being removed from the breeding stock of a given breed. NOT killed, as you seem to think I meant.
> 
> Incidentally, while most Gypsy Cobs/Horses, are under 15hh, there are plenty of taller ones around.
> 
> ...


I took culled literally, glad you didn't mean it that way. There are some people in this world that would actually do that. If they do it with dogs they will do it with any other species :shock:

I have been unable to find any large gypsies or drums that arnt pinto patterned as that is the only colour stipulation... No pinto pattern genes.
There are also some Percheron's I am thinking about, like I said I have the time to be very picky. Colour really doesn't come into it. Although would be a bonus. I will follow the rules and guidelines set by the registry as I want to get it right


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No pinto patterns hunh? Well make sure your horses don't have splash, sabino, dominant white, and the like, as well as those ARE pinto patterns. Oh wait! That wipes out all the horses you could breed!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

You have to understand, that there are hundreds of thousands of horses the world over, who are sold for someone's dinner table, every year. This includes tons from the UK, Canada and the US. Doesn't matter if they are purebred or grades. The majority were not well thought out breedings, which would have been desired throughout their lives and always found willing homes. That even in our current difficult equine economy. Top quality, well bred horses are much more likely to find homes, than mixed breeds or poorly bred purebreds, bred and sold by irresponsible breeders. 

This is where (I think) it will become difficult to really create a Sugarbush breed, when so many breeds are allowed in and of all types and if _truly_, many will be culled. I imagine it becomes even more difficult, when people in different parts of the world are all trying to recreate it. At some point, shipped semen will have to be available so the different lines can join up and be bred. 

Regarding larger Gypsies in the UK. Well remember that in their background, many Shires were used in the mid 1800's when the breed really became first known and was used to pull the incredibly heavy living caravans. I know that many UK small breeders are trying to breed for smaller horses these days, but there are plenty of larger ones of the old type around if you look. Many of our most famous lines, actually go back to a Shire which came from Scotland. Not all are tobianos.

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Em... No it doesn't. To be honest I think (I will actually have to double check) but I think it is the pinto patterns overo, tobino and dominant white that arnt allowed. Will check about splash and Sabino although it doesn't mean I have no horses to breed to. Neither of my horses have any pinto patterns. Percheron's, Suffolks, Norikers, Belgians, Ardennes, all are free of all pinto patterns. There are more but I can't be bothered needlessly bickering about it. 

Again I didn't ask for my breed to be slated, I asked if anyone knew any draft dilute stallions out of curiosity. If people have a valid question that's fine but if you just want to pick holes in my breed you obviously have nothing better to do with your time. I don't have time for bickering and sarcasm. Valid points and comments I welcome, sarcasm I don't.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Forgot to ask. What is it about the Sugarbush horses, which you cannot find in any already recognized breed?

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

FeatheredFeet said:


> You have to understand, that there are hundreds of thousands of horses the world over, who are sold for someone's dinner table, every year. This includes tons from the UK, Canada and the US. Doesn't matter if they are purebred or grades. The majority were not well thought out breedings, which would have been desired throughout their lives and always found willing homes. That even in our current difficult equine economy. Top quality, well bred horses are much more likely to find homes, than mixed breeds or poorly bred purebreds, bred and sold by irresponsible breeders.
> 
> This is where (I think) it will become difficult to really create a Sugarbush breed, when so many breeds are allowed in and of all types and if _truly_, many will be culled. I imagine it becomes even more difficult, when people in different parts of the world are all trying to recreate it. At some point, shipped semen will have to be available so the different lines can join up and be bred.
> 
> ...


I will be working with shipped semen from the American stallions once I have an adequate number of mares and once I then get down some generations I will be importing a stallion from the original lines.

It is a sad sad fact that a lot of horses are in effect culled although if you register on their passport that they are not for human consumption and also register it with the microchip company... I forget the name (baby brain again) then when the horses are scanned their number shows not for human consumption. This won't stop it happening to all horses but would help.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Forgot to ask. What is it about the Sugarbush horses, which you cannot find in any already recognized breed?
> 
> Lizzie


I answered this before but basically what I said was I started out with Clydesdales and thinking about Suffolks but due to the mass inbreeding after the was they have a LOT of genetic defects which could only be improved upon through crosses, which wouldn't be allowed. I own a very well bred Clydesdale from one of the most influential sires and he had cancer as a 3 year old and now at 9 is fully retired due to arthritis. Clydesdales don't fully mature until 9... I know several people with 1/2 siblings of his that are all retired/semi retired due to arthritis. Poor Charlie was the only one to snap up cancer but it shows that the defect is there.

Also logistically it is easier and much more affordable to travel and keep still bulky but slightly more compact horses. 

The Sugarbush's are using the same re estBlishment method that the Cleveland bays used


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I didn't know or hadn't heard, that Clydes in the UK, had so many problems. Sorry to hear this and sorry about your boy. What about Shires? At one time of course, they were all one breed. Are they in the same trouble? There again, maybe you don't want feathering, in which case, Percherons would be the obvious choice I suppose.

But if feather isn't an issue and if you personally want something more compact, then why not get a Gypsy? And no, I'm not trying to only tout Gypsies. Just that they are more compact and certainly come in all sizes. Why take most of your life, trying to create something, of which there are already many around? I don't know the Standard for the breed, if there is one, so I suppose I can't or shouldn't, really comment.

Lizzie


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Any white marking out side of true roan, rabicano, LP and PATN are pinto genes.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Sadly all the drafts in the UK are in the same boat to one degree or another :-( it is because instead of bringing them back after the war, most of the remaining live horses were shot. Of course that then ment there was very very little genetic diversity left in the breeds. If you go 5 ish generations back you can find daughters mated back to their fathers all over the place... Not good. At least the Friesians have an inbreeding co officiant stated on their passports. 

There is a strict breed standard that I have to work towards. I don't think feathers come into it much, a little feather but not full feather. My mare is an Ardennes from the old lines which is a good start (my filly's dam) her body type is very close to the ideal although her back is a little long and she needs a more powerful loin and longer legs. So any stallions I look at for her want to be tall, short coupled and have a good loin. That's just the basic requirements for a stallion for her obviously many many more things come into consideration. Where as her filly is short coupled and has a great back end so for her I am looking for a little more height and a small amount more bulk as she is already a wee beefcake :wink:


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Okies... I double checked. It is only dominant white, overo and tobino that aren't allowed 

All other colours and patterns are allowed.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

OK. I understand. I suspect you know, that while during the war, tons of English horses were requisitioned for the army, the Gypsy Horses were mostly left untouched. Sooo, I suppose if you looked, you could find a solid which meets your requirements. Failing that and being close to so many European countries, you have a vast number of stallions of many breeds, from which to choose.

Lizzie


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## lovelyStory (Oct 2, 2012)

oooooh he is stunning!


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## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

Just FYI: Overo is a catch all term for Frame, Sabino and Splash at least.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

you say you intend on showing? in what classes? there are no heavy horse classes you can enter as they are restricted to certain purebreds, If the stallion is a good example of the breed then they cant even go in the HW cob class as they are far too course and common looking (far too much draft blood for the cob classes) as your not allowed true coloureds (splodgey ponies) then you cant do the coloured classes. Appies are no allowed in the coloured classes.
Oh and they cant even do TGCA classes as they dont have feather

I suppose at small local shows you could do the "odd coloured" classes but above the small local shows there are no possible classes you could do.

ETA the brabant is on the DAD-IS list. The list is compiled in the original language, in this case french of flemish. In belgium (the country of origin and icidently my home country) they are known as *Cheval de trait belge. *which is on the list!


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> you say you intend on showing? in what classes? there are no heavy horse classes you can enter as they are restricted to certain purebreds, If the stallion is a good example of the breed then they cant even go in the HW cob class as they are far too course and common looking (far too much draft blood for the cob classes) as your not allowed true coloureds (splodgey ponies) then you cant do the coloured classes. Appies are no allowed in the coloured classes.
> Oh and they cant even do TGCA classes as they dont have feather
> 
> I suppose at small local shows you could do the "odd coloured" classes but above the small local shows there are no possible classes you could do.
> ...


Can I just ask what your problem is? I want to show, I will be able to show in hunter classes. I have never stated that i wanted to ahow cobs. i did say my filly was a maxi cob but thats all i said. I never intended to show in colour classes. As I said before it isn't about colour it's the horse underneath. They aren't always spotty. So what!

How does what I am doing effect you in ANY way? It doesn't... You seem to have a bee in your bonnet because of a difference in opinion. That's all it is. So you don't like the Sugarbush... So what. Plenty do. 

There are far more people that used to say the same thing about coloured horses (piebalds/skewbalds) that used to think only gypsies had them to pull their carts... Now look at the coloured horse industry. In the last 10 years it has boomed.

The Brabant is not listed for America, neither is the Belgian both of which are breeds in the states. The argument about the DAD-IS is a redundant one as I have already explained the countries do not need to participate in the system AND as a breed that until we have more numbers is classified as "extinct" because there are so few left... It wouldn't be included.

It amuses me that so many people can be so put out by the simple fact that my opinion on a horse isn't there's. why are you arguing about it? It isn't going to make me change mind or plans for the future. So what's the point in bashing my breed of choice? That's right, there isn't one. 

If I had simply said that I wanted a dilute heavy just because we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am proud of what we are trying to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm laughing at the fact you think you can do a hunter class with it!!

If it is anything like that stallion it will be far far too common. You'd probably get laughed at in the ring

Lw hunters are often pure TB, a minimum of 16hh and quite fine. MW hunters are ever so slightly heavier, tend to be TBx ID. 
HW Hunters tend to be a minimum of 17hh have good amount of TB blood normaly crossed with CB or ID. And are far more refined than that stallion.

This is a good MW hunter









when I find a good photo of a HW I'll post it but as you can see it had a lot more "blood" than that stallion and Draft horses are not HW hunters.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Laugh all you like. Seriously... I couldn't care less. I have my opinion, you have yours. They are very different. Leave it at that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

found a HW hunter photo.









This is silverstream who has won at RIHS and HOYS. He is the best part of 18.3hh. 

Note the quality flat bone, the good length of rein and nice length of back and the refined quality of the horse. Non of which that stallion (on page 2) has. The stallion has quite round bone with is worrying and it certainly doesnt have space on its back for a saddle so if you are aiming to breed a heavy riding horse then you will certainly need to breed it longer in the back.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Freyannia said:


> Okies... I double checked. It is only dominant white, *overo *and tobino that aren't allowed
> 
> All other colours and patterns are allowed.


Per the bold... That still wipes out pretty much all the white patterns for you... Overo covers multiple different patterns, included in that are frame, splash and sabino. Splash and sabino ARE responsible for most "normal" white markings. 

And by the way it *tobiano* not tobino.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Faye she could be meaning working hunter but then draft crosses are probably not best suited to jumping competitively.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thanks for posting those pics *faye* I spent years showing in hunter classes and they are simply not clipped out draft horses, even at local show level you wouldnt have a chance. Working Hunters are exactly the same - they are basically show hunters that can jump. The horses might have some chance in the Maxi cob classes but to me they dont look to even have the quality for that and though the coloured are doing great in those classes (like The Humdinger) I cant see an appy colouring doing so well.
For a horse to be worth any money in the UK it has to do a job in the showring otherwise you can pick them up at Beeston castle for a few hundred pounds nowadays so hardly worth all the efforts of shipping in semen etc and raising a foal
I'm not aware that horses like the Clydes had much use in WW1 - they would have been far too slow and would have struggled in deep mud which is what they were often fighting in. These horses were still vital in agriculture in those days and food production was vital to the countries survival so I dont think that the war had that much impact on their numbers in the UK and I dont think there has ever been that much inbreeding to cause defects either. All horses can get cancer, it dont think Clydes have a predisposition to it
*OP* - No one is trying to 'rubbish' your ideas - just questioning the point in it. If you want to make some money then breed for the existing showring but Even the heavy & maxi cobs should look like a compact sturdy riding horse and not like a draft


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

I have only seen working hunter classes at local shows up here in Shetland and their working hunter classes is basically just a class where anyone can enter but this is very low level shows.
All photos from the 'biggest' just horse show in shetland


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

workers classes are for show hunters that jump and i very much doubt that a draft would be capable of getting the height or have the scope for the class. the novice classes start at 3ft 9.
most showhunters go on to either showjumping or eventing at high levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

rbarlo32 said:


> I have only seen working hunter classes at local shows up here in Shetland and their working hunter classes is basically just a class where anyone can enter but this is very low level shows.
> All photos from the 'biggest' just horse show in shetland


On the mainland the above 2 would do ok in the M&M workers classes (presuming they are purebred)



>


Turned out better the above may do well in working cob classes (these are a fairly new class)



>


This nice little dun would be what you would expect to see in a working hunter pony class


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

That little dun is a not so little Irish draught connamara cross who is about 15.22 and she is also buckskin and has produced the most stunning perlino filly last year late I would love to pinch of her owner. They live about 16 miles away and we have to pass them on the way to town, very well bred and very well trained mare.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Interesting. She looks as though she has leg barring on all legs, which would suggest Dun. Maybe a Buckskin Dun? Pretty girl.

Lizzie


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

No eel strtipe but she is sooty.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

See no eel stripe









And some of her stunning foal


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.
> 
> Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...


Eh, it really seems to be the same thing as the dog breeders making "Chipoo"s, "Doxipoo"s, Etc...breeding cute things together to make a designer something (I'd use the word "mutt" here", personally) to sell...


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> workers classes are for show hunters that jump and i very much doubt that a draft would be capable of getting the height or have the scope for the class. the novice classes start at 3ft 9.
> most showhunters go on to either showjumping or eventing at high levels.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who says drafts can't jump? That is a myth. ANY horse can jump if trained correctly. Some here jump regularly and some do it just for fun but they do it and they don't struggle. The reason people think drafts can't jump is because they don't see them do it, the colt jumping the fence in the picture just decided to change fields and popped it of his own accord. 

As for there being no space on the stallions back for a saddle, his markings hide his shape well, he has plenty space. I would resist using photos under saddle to talk about conformation also as a good rider can easily mask a horses faults.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Eh, it really seems to be the same thing as the dog breeders making "Chipoo"s, "Doxipoo"s, Etc...breeding cute things together to make a designer something (I'd use the word "mutt" here", personally) to sell...


It is not the same. Breed a sugarbush to a sugarbush and you will have a sugarbush foal every time. Breed a labradoodle to a labradoodle and the litter will be a Mish mash of types never settling on a bred true example.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Never said they can't I said they can't jump as competitively as other breeds with is completely true, how many drafts do you see at Olympic level events non and I am not saying you are wanting to compete to that level. All I meant was if you want to breed a competitive working hunter then you want to consider a different breed. It would be saying I want to breed my Shetland for show jumping, yes they if they wanted to can jump a fence bigger than them mine have done just that but can they compete competitively out side their own breed nope and they is why and hoys ect they have their own working hunter class.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Freyannia said:


> It is not the same. Breed a sugarbush to a sugarbush and you will have a sugarbush foal every time. Breed a labradoodle to a labradoodle and the litter will be a Mish mash of types never settling on a bred true example.


:think:
Now, I'm no expert, admittedly, but I feel like we are reading different threads. Isn't one of the issues that the Sugarbush is not breeding "true" at this point?

How is that any different than some fourth generation goldendoodles?

I am honestly not trying to be rude, I am attempting to be realistic, and I think that may be what some of the other posters are getting at.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

If I were thinking of recreating a true breed, of which there were only a couple left, then I would do the following...

I would do a ton of research to try to reliably come up with the breeds which _originally_ went into their makeup. I would then decide, which of those breeds, the couple left, most resemble. I would then (again) do a ton of homework and make lists of the very best of those breeds. 

I think I would then, obtain several top quality and unrelated mares and stallions of those breeds. Breed testing/crossing of these different breeds AND waiting until they matured, would tell me which crosses appeared to be coming close to the couple of the original breed still left. Those who appeared to conform to that original standard, would be bred together. Again, I'd have to wait to see just how they matured.

Not an easy task. Not a quick task. It would take many horses of each breed, many test breedings. a ton of money and probably a lifetime, to produce *reliably,* horses which resembled the couple of the original breed, one had left. The original (hopefully) stallion, would have to have been collected carefully, to breed to those made-up horses which came probably, many years later. His sperm could then be used on a few of the made-up mares, who most closely resembled him in type/colour etc. This would tie into those original horses of the breed. If the original left were mares, then they again, could be bred - if they lived long enough, to some of the new, made-up stallions.

I cannot really, see it happening any other way. Certainly not by introducing various different breeds along the way. 

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

rbarlo32 said:


> Never said they can't I said they can't jump as competitively as other breeds with is completely true, how many drafts do you see at Olympic level events non and I am not saying you are wanting to compete to that level. All I meant was if you want to breed a competitive working hunter then you want to consider a different breed. It would be saying I want to breed my Shetland for show jumping, yes they if they wanted to can jump a fence bigger than them mine have done just that but can they compete competitively out side their own breed nope and they is why and hoys ect they have their own working hunter class.


Sorry if you though I aimed that at you :-( it was a generic "who says hey can't" comment. You don't see drafts at the Olympics. But other than Carl Hester who as been EXCEPTIONALLY lucky, how many people compete in the horse events at the Olympics that weren't born into wealth? Not many. Do you think mummy and daddy buy a draft and put money into its training? Nope. They like the flashy Warmblood's. when the Italians brought the Andalusian and Lusitano into the dressage arena everyone said they weren't good enough. But neither of them had to force their horses into the movements, they did it willingly and naturally. Not like the Dutch but that's a bug bear of mines and if I start I won't stop. 

Personally I am looking to build something similar to the Cumbrian heavy horses in Scotland and these horses are perfect for me. It annoys me when people say oh you have a draft... You can't do that and you can't do that and you can't do that either. Why do people have to be so competitive? 

Why can't you just have the horses you want to have without people telling you you have made the wrong decision. I don't say "oooo I don't like your warmblood, it will need lots of shoeing and lots of feeding and rugs". I would never say that. I would say "you got yourself a great horse there. Hope you enjoy it". It's none of my business what you do with your horse or how much it costs you. Because that is polite and at the end of the day you didn't ask my opinion on your horse, it's breed or your plans so why would I comment?

Obviously when I am saying "you" I am speaking generically here not to yourself rbarlo32


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

demonwolfmoon said:


> :think:
> Now, I'm no expert, admittedly, but I feel like we are reading different threads. Isn't one of the issues that the Sugarbush is not breeding "true" at this point?
> 
> How is that any different than some fourth generation goldendoodles?
> ...


It's a valid question and not rude at all. I do not know about goldendoodles but I do know that labradoodles don't breed true. I know people who still have a large variation in the pups born in the 3rd and 4th generations. It takes 5 generations of breeding true for a breed to be considered a breed. So as the original sugarbushes were at this stage and producing consistent foals they were considered to be breeding true. 

Now because they have had to open the stud books to foundation animals within 70% of the parameters of the ideal sugarbush, the fresh blood as yet doesn't breed true. How can it. However as we go down the generations the youngstock will be assessed for percentage of the ideal sugarbush. Once the youngstock (between generation 5 and 10) are assessed and make high 90's percentage of ideal then that will be considered as the 1st generation to start to breed true from. Some breeders will get here more quickly than others as they have been working on this for a while and are on generation 3 already where as I will be on generation 1 for the next couple of years. 

Once the horses have bred true for 5 generations they will again be considered purebred.

Once the breed has at least 10 distinct bloodlines (not including foundation horses) it will be moved from the "extinct" catagory to the "endangered breed" catagory.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Freyannia said:


> Once the breed has at least 10 distinct bloodlines (not including foundation horses) it will be moved from the "extinct" catagory to the "endangered breed" catagory.


Given the necessity of deciding on breeding over so many years, and so many generations..and needing at least ten DISTINCT bloodlines, it surely looks like you and your fellow breeders have your work cut out for you! 

Though it would not be my decision to breed, I certainly respect the sheer determination you have, as well as a love for the "breed" to undertake such a mountainous task!


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Given the necessity of deciding on breeding over so many years, and so many generations..and needing at least ten DISTINCT bloodlines, it surely looks like you and your fellow breeders have your work cut out for you!
> 
> Though it would not be my decision to breed, I certainly respect the sheer determination you have, as well as a love for the "breed" to undertake such a mountainous task!


Thanks  we are well aware that It will take between 30 and 50 years to get this breed back to purebred status and that's if everything goes well. We are all very dedicated and have a great love for these horses


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Freyannia said:


> Sorry if you though I aimed that at you :-( it was a generic "who says hey can't" comment. You don't see drafts at the Olympics. But other than Carl Hester who as been EXCEPTIONALLY lucky, how many people compete in the horse events at the Olympics that weren't born into wealth? Not many. Do you think mummy and daddy buy a draft and put money into its training? Nope. They like the flashy Warmblood's. when the Italians brought the Andalusian and Lusitano into the dressage arena everyone said they weren't good enough. But neither of them had to force their horses into the movements, they did it willingly and naturally. Not like the Dutch but that's a bug bear of mines and if I start I won't stop.


 
Just thought I'd say that lusitanos and andalusians aren't doing as well at higher levels of dressage because they lack the quality extended gaits of the WBs. The WBs have been proven to do well at high levels, so that is what will be used. If drafts excelled, then they would be used instead. Sorry, just thought I would let you know the reasoning behind certain breeds being used.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow, took me awhile to read the posts, have to say I am really shocked at some of the rude posts on here....really some people? 

I think what you are doing is great Freyannia. And for those of you who are bashing breeds that you say are not pure... well show me a breed that truly is "pure" in the true sense? QH's have a heavy dose of TB blood, as do Appaloosas and paints, I could go on and on. The only "pure" horse is the Arabian if you want to get right down to it. Then I guess you could say QH's and many of the other breeds are "mutts" too.... Calling someone's horse or breeding goals a "mutt" is really uncalled for. Isn't this a forum for people who all love horses, and a friendly forum at that?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

i love horses but the harsh reality is that thousands are currently unwanted and every week they go for meat from places like beeston market. 
pedigree riding horses with show results cant even raise a decent price and this person wants to bring more mutts into the world where they will have no job and no purpose.
ive yet to see any properbreed standard other than looking vaguely drafty and having the ability to breed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jumanji321 said:


> Just thought I'd say that lusitanos and andalusians aren't doing as well at higher levels of dressage because they lack the quality extended gaits of the WBs. The WBs have been proven to do well at high levels, so that is what will be used. If drafts excelled, then they would be used instead. Sorry, just thought I would let you know the reasoning behind certain breeds being used.


I know why certain breeds are used. I was simply commenting on the factnthatpeople say these horses can't do as well, but in fact they beat a huge number of Warmblood's in the Olympics. There have been extensive studies done into the dressage training (not that anyone high up cares) and the huge extensions that horses like Totillas have shown in the past are due to hyper flexion training. It isnt the horses natural ability. The most impressive extension from a horse I have seen is Utopia and if you freeze frame his leg angles still match showing the genuine extension. Sad fact is if ALL dressage horses were trained correctly you would start to see more baroque horses.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

not nessecarily as the boroque breed conformation means that whilst they find it very easy to collect extension is very very difficult for them. uthopia and valegro were trained by the same person but you will never get the valegro quality of extension from a baroque horse as they physically cant do it.

btw i am very experianced at seeing through colour to conformation and that stallion has no room for a saddle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> i love horses but the harsh reality is that thousands are currently unwanted and every week they go for meat from places like beeston market.
> pedigree riding horses with show results cant even raise a decent price and this person wants to bring more mutts into the world where they will have no job and no purpose.
> ive yet to see any properbreed standard other than looking vaguely drafty and having the ability to breed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok Faye I would like you to stop now. I and several others are trying to save a breed from extinction. I have already explained to you how to try and safeguard your horse against the meat market. AND I have already explained that my horses will be bred with the purpose of working in my business, I may sell one or two along the way but that's my business not yours.

Again as I have explained before the Sugarbush has a set breed standard that I will be working to. 

I am a very very small operation with only 1 breeding mare at this point (2 in a year or so) I am hardly going to put pressure on the other horses In the country. I will not be selling my youngstock for quite some time.

Most of the horses that end up in the meat market are ex tb's, horses and pony's from appleby and other horse markets who were either sold for the purpose by the dealer or injured and sold because it would cost too much money to get them right, Pony's that were bought by the wrong person and threw their rider repeatedly, high energy horses again bought by the wrong people who ended up injured, horses that cost a lot to keep (due to the recession...You don't tend to see the good doers in this group very often because they cost very little to keep in comparison), and horses with 'defects' like laminitis, arthritis etc etc etc...

Now when it comes to people buying the wrong horse, that is the seller's issue. A lot of the time dodgy dealers are to blame and the rest of the time riders with delusions of grandure are to blame. If I don't think a horse is suitable for someone I will tell them. As I said before I do not need to sell any of my horses.

Get off your high horse or leave the thread. "This person"... how rude! I have a name you can use. I have never met someone so rude so quickly with so little reason. You don't know me, or my horses. You look at one picture and think you know everything about the breed. You are sadly mistaken.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Where are the mods on this thread? OP, well done for keeping your composure so well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

i suggest u take a trip to beeston horsemarket or york market the vast majority sold weekly through those are heavy cobs or drafts. meat men dont like finer horses as it costs them more to process them than they can get for the meat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> i suggest u take a trip to beeston horsemarket or york market the vast majority sold weekly through those are heavy cobs or drafts. meat men dont like finer horses as it costs them more to process them than they can get for the meat
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suggest you answer my original question or leave the thread.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Honestly! 8 pages worth and only 1 person answered my original question. By the way thanks for that verona1016


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Freyannia said:


> Honestly! 8 pages worth and only 1 person answered my original question. By the way thanks for that verona1016


 
But isn't that the way of threads sometimes,they evolve to discuss all the issues involved around the original question. I think it has made a very interesting discussion about existing and potential new breeds.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Some of it has been an interesting discussion. But some has just need needlessly rude comments which are uncalled for.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Remali said:


> Wow, took me awhile to read the posts, have to say I am really shocked at some of the rude posts on here....really some people?
> 
> I think what you are doing is great Freyannia. And for those of you who are bashing breeds that you say are not pure... well show me a breed that truly is "pure" in the true sense? QH's have a heavy dose of TB blood, as do Appaloosas and paints, I could go on and on. The only "pure" horse is the Arabian if you want to get right down to it. Then I guess you could say QH's and many of the other breeds are "mutts" too.... Calling someone's horse or breeding goals a "mutt" is really uncalled for. Isn't this a forum for people who all love horses, and a friendly forum at that?


So not true, there are other pure breeds out there. The British Shetland pony, the Icelandic and the Faroe pony are all pure.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Freyannia said:


> I know why certain breeds are used. I was simply commenting on the factnthatpeople say these horses can't do as well, but in fact they beat a huge number of Warmblood's in the Olympics. There have been extensive studies done into the dressage training (not that anyone high up cares) and the huge extensions that horses like Totillas have shown in the past are due to hyper flexion training. It isnt the horses natural ability. The most impressive extension from a horse I have seen is Utopia and if you freeze frame his leg angles still match showing the genuine extension. Sad fact is if ALL dressage horses were trained correctly you would start to see more baroque horses.


Are you referring to Uthopia ridden by Carl Hester? If so, he is a warmblood (KWPN) and you just supported what I said earlier about warmbloods being more adept at extended gaits than baroque breeds. Baroques are very good at collected gaits, but expanding them is where most lose quality. I don't want you to feel attacked by me if youfeel you are and I won't comment on the whole breed saving topic as I'm not knowledgable enough to fully make any recommendation. I will commend you for your efforts though and your determination. Saving a breed is no small feat, so good luck with whatever your future holds for you!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I dont see how trying to advise someone that introducing a very modern breed of Draft horse into a small country like the UK is not a great idea - if she wants to do it as a hobby then fine but to expand and actually allow this breed to flourish means selling the offspring at some point - without unlimited funds they have to be looked after
The existing draft horses in the UK are already under threat as there is no demand for them, the Fell, Highland and dales are also under threat - these are long established historic breeds - for the same reason. The breed societys are working their socks off to encourage people to get interested in them. 
If you breed a heavy draft horse and want it to be worth something you have to have a market for it and I'm not seeing one for the Sugarbush
This isnt about being rude its about being realistic. The Uk is constantly being bombarded with news of unwanted horses, abandoned horses, horses going for meat, horses having 2 passports so they can go for meat even though their main passport prohibits it since the data base was closed the ability to track has gone, charities are overflowing with horses no one wants to the extent that they were debating euthanising older inmates to make room for young ones coming in. Spending all this time and effort into creating a new breed that no one might want isnt good sense right now


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

You can use my user name you know, it's less offensive to be called by your name than "this person" or "she".

It is not your place to advise me. I did not ask for advice. 

Don't believe all the news you read it very often is full of half truths. I am not saying horses don't go for meat. I am saying if thousands of horses go every week the UK would soon be free of horses completely. I would say thousands is an exaduration. 

That being said I must re iterate that I have only 1 mare at this point. I plan to keep all if not most of my stock. How am I putting pressure on the other horses in the country?

I can't get over how rude some of you are being. You can't say to someone it's ok if you have it as a hobby but its wrong if you do it as a job. It is none of your business what I do. Not your place to tell me I have picked the wrong breed or that my choices are wrong. ESPECIALLY when I didn't ask for your oppinion or advice. You can have your opinion that's fine but remember it is only your opinion and no one else's. You may share thoughts with others of similar opinion but ALL opinions are different. Just because you have a different opinion to me does not mean my opinion is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Freyannia just noticed you are also from Scotland, where abouts in Scotland are you from if you don't mind me asking. I like sugarbush horses, wouldn't have on personally as I don't ride and they wouldn't cope with living in Shetland.

I wish you luck in your ventures though I am not sure how well they will do, but they look nice enough.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

rbarlo32 said:


> Freyannia just noticed you are also from Scotland, where abouts in Scotland are you from if you don't mind me asking. I like sugarbush horses, wouldn't have on personally as I don't ride and they wouldn't cope with living in Shetland.
> 
> I wish you luck in your ventures though I am not sure how well they will do, but they look nice enough.


Greenock  although I have followed the work all over the place, for the foreseeable future Greenock is the hometown of choice. You guys get a fair old brunt of the weather. Must be worth it for the area though! I have never been to Shetland, always meant to try and visit because I would like to see all of Scotland and the islands. Maybe some day  thanks for the good wishes 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

So here's a question... Wouldn't they technically not be sugarbush horses, they would be just a recreation of the original horses? 

This is gonna be a crude example but like let's say you want to remake a tazmaninan tiger. You grab an okapi for barring back legs, a dingo for dog like structure, and a hyena for a nice long muzzle. You get an animal that matches your tazmanian tiger! Yay! But is it really a tazmanian tiger or something that looks like a tazmanian tiger? 

Yes, I know that's crude example but you get my drift?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

rbarlo32 said:


> Freyannia just noticed you are also from Scotland, where abouts in Scotland are you from if you don't mind me asking. I like sugarbush horses, wouldn't have on personally as I don't ride and they wouldn't cope with living in Shetland.
> 
> I wish you luck in your ventures though I am not sure how well they will do, but they look nice enough.





SlideStop said:


> So here's a question... Wouldn't they technically not be sugarbush horses, they would be just a recreation of the original horses?
> 
> This is gonna be a crude example but like let's say you want to remake a tazmaninan tiger. You grab an okapi for barring back legs, a dingo for dog like structure, and a hyena for a nice long muzzle. You get an animal that matches your tazmanian tiger! Yay! But is it really a tazmanian tiger or something that looks like a tazmanian tiger?
> 
> ...


Valid question. To start off yes (this is UK only as the States and Canada have access to the original stock). Down the line a stallion from the original lines will be imported or at least the semen will be. So at that point the original blood will start to be introduced. There after its a long process of integrating the new and original blood. 

Similar to the Belgians in the States. They actually used the Brabant as the foundation animals to breed their Belgians.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Don't know how I managed to quote 2 ppl there 0_o
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

I would wait until summer before visiting, late July early August is usually the best unless I am getting ready for a show. But is you want to see Up hell









































Or you could come up in October when it is the Annual Pedigree Shetland pony sales where you can pick up a could quality pony for a fiver, though this year might be better as it going electronic and a lot of people are planning a group holiday type thing to try and revamp the sales as the prices have sunk so low that they are very close to canceling the sale.


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

Freyannia, you handled yourself really well here. Sorry you expected an answer and were put out to slaughter yourself.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Sorry that should have said Up Helly Aa


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

rbarlo32 said:


> Sorry that should have said Up Helly Aa


It looks amazing! Always wanted to see it up close too! Although saying that I was thinking about getting a Shetland for my wee one. She is used to riding our Clydie but I think something smaller would probably be better 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

A Shetland would be better to learn on as it is a shorter distance to fall. Just be careful some have been spoiled because of their size and therefore nasty ******s but when trained right you can't beat a Shetland. It is nice to see some one consider a Shetland for a change as they have such a bad reputation.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

rbarlo32 said:


> A Shetland would be better to learn on as it is a shorter distance to fall. Just be careful some have been spoiled because of their size and therefore nasty ******s but when trained right you can't beat a Shetland. It is nice to see some one consider a Shetland for a change as they have such a bad reputation.


 I love Shetlands, I think they teach kids the most as they can bee cheeky but at the same time manageable. Would have to section my grazing before getting one though as it would likely eat itself off its feet on my grazing! 

I always loved teaching lessons in the riding schools with Shetlands, they are soo full of character but at the same time they want to look after the kids. Super ponies!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

SidMit said:


> Freyannia, you handled yourself really well here. Sorry you expected an answer and were put out to slaughter yourself.


 No one put her to slaughter
She asked a question and didnt like most of the answers.
As far as I can see none of them were personal or abusive. Some of them were blunt - but they were honest. No one said they hated the Sugarbush Drafts - they just said that they couldnt see a market for developing the breed in the UK.
If the OP wants to breed one for her own pleasure then that is her perogative however it should be pretty obvious that you cant cross a mare that has no Sugarbush breeding with a draft horse that has no Sugarbush breeding and produce a Sugarbush Draft. If you started with a purebred appaloosa and crossed it with something like a percheron you would stand a chance of getting a mid to heavyweight appaloosa colouring but no guarantee and it would not be a draft horse. We had a horse liveried with us that was AppyxTB and he was dark bay. 
There are already some threads on the forum discussing the breed registry and not very favourably
The OP's best chance is to import semen - not as straightforward as it sounds as there are a lot of hoops to jump through to do that in line with DEFRA rules
Importing an actual stallion from the US would involve the cost of the stallion plus transport to the UK - approx $9,000 with additional vet and quarantine charges.


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> No one put her to slaughter
> She asked a question and didnt like most of the answers.
> As far as I can see none of them were personal or abusive. Some of them were blunt - but they were honest. No one said they hated the Sugarbush Drafts - they just said that they couldnt see a market for developing the breed in the UK.
> If the OP wants to breed one for her own pleasure then that is her perogative however it should be pretty obvious that you cant cross a mare that has no Sugarbush breeding with a draft horse that has no Sugarbush breeding and produce a Sugarbush Draft. If you started with a purebred appaloosa and crossed it with something like a percheron you would stand a chance of getting a mid to heavyweight appaloosa colouring but no guarantee and it would not be a draft horse. We had a horse liveried with us that was AppyxTB and he was dark bay.
> ...


Again. Didn't answer the question. Just got all huffy with your own agenda. Never did she ask what you thought of her idea.. she merely asked if anyone knew of a place she could find what she was looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

SidMit said:


> Again. Didn't answer the question. Just got all huffy with your own agenda. Never did she ask what you thought of her idea.. she merely asked if anyone knew of a place she could find what she was looking for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The OP also gave her reasonings for asking, this creates a discussion and all points are open for debate, this is a forum to discuss horse issues, what is the problem with doing so?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

SidMit said:


> Again. Didn't answer the question. Just got all huffy with your own agenda. Never did she ask what you thought of her idea.. she merely asked if anyone knew of a place she could find what she was looking for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suggested that she look at Suffolk Punches as they are solid chestnut and have less feather but she rejected that idea as she insists they were inbred too much, the Clyde has markings that usually pass on and the Shire would be too feathered. You can Google Draft stallions at stud - that would come up with far more results than anyone here could give.
However using any of these horses is not going to produce a Sugarbush Draft - it will only produce a mixed breed and probably solid colour
If the OP wants to look closer to home for a spotted draft horse - if thats what she likes - then she should look at the Pinzgaur Noriker, its an historic european breed, its been 'pure' since 1903 and it currently has the largest numbers of draft horses on its registry in Europe
Noriker / Pinzgauer Horses




The Noriker - Norik - The Pinzgau Horse
If you look at these horses I would say they are exactly what the Sugarbush breeders were trying to achieve


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Clava said:


> The OP also gave her reasonings for asking, this creates a discussion and all points are open for debate, this is a forum to discuss horse issues, what is the problem with doing so?


The problem is that certain people are Not taking part in a discussion, they are making Rude remarks and stating what they think are facts and not discussing anything. 

Actually, i never gave a reason why i was looking for a dilute stallion, I explained why i would prefer a draft as my filly needs to be covered by a full draft (which would be assessed for suitability before any decision was made) in order to be eligable to have the foal count as a G1, working towards the ideal type before I can start to try and get horses breeding true.

I will deal with a pure blood stallion later but there isn't much point if my stock isn't the correct type yet.

To clarify, I was asked what I wanted to breed and was immediately told I was breeding a mutt. This is not the opening for a discussion but a rude remark that was un necessary and uncalled for And several others followed. 

To be honest I have commented on the rude comments already, I do feel like a target, I do feel like people are forcing their opinions forward and won't accept that others have different opinions and I also feel like people are deliberately ignoring comments so they can continue to nit pick. 

Is this how a friendly forum operates? I think not. 

This is my 3rd day on this forum and I must say it hasn't given me the best impression.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

actualy my original question was entirely to do with the thread as there are probably hundreds of draft stallions out there each with thier own attributes and breed standards. 

Asking for a double dilute stallion with no other qualities screams colour breeder (colour breeders being those who couldnt give a **** what the horses conformation or preformance ability is provided it is a pretty colour). I will not help colour breeders.

On the other hand had the OP come on here and said something like:

I would like to breed a nice draft cross, I have this mare XXX, she has these bad points XXXX, I would like to improve XXX with an aim to doing XXX so am looking for a stallion with a good shoulder/hip/stifle/length of back etc. Oh and it would be an added bonus if it was a double dilute. 
then she would have gotten a far better response. 

I'm all for carefully concidered breedings that improve on what you have, breeding a poorly conformed useless horse because it is a pretty colour is NOT improving anything other than the meatmans bottom line!


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I suggested that she look at Suffolk Punches as they are solid chestnut and have less feather but she rejected that idea as she insists they were inbred too much, the Clyde has markings that usually pass on and the Shire would be too feathered. You can Google Draft stallions at stud - that would come up with far more results than anyone here could give.
> However using any of these horses is not going to produce a Sugarbush Draft - it will only produce a mixed breed and probably solid colour
> If the OP wants to look closer to home for a spotted draft horse - if thats what she likes - then she should look at the Pinzgaur Noriker, its an historic european breed, its been 'pure' since 1903 and it currently has the largest numbers of draft horses on its registry in Europe
> Noriker / Pinzgauer Horses
> ...


I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then. If you read back I did not reject your idea of a Suffolk stallion, I just said I hadn't seen any yet that would make a good match.

I have also already looked into Norikers and they do not have the height I need. Again remember I am looking to imitate the Sugarbush and then introduce the original blood. So at first yes my horses will be cross breeds which I have already explained. I seem to be going over the same points again and again here.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Freyannia said:


> I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then.


_This is quite common throughout the whole forum, as with all of the posters, it can be hard to remember who the OP was. It is not meant in a bad way, just the simplest way to address you._


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Thing is you seem to be going about restoreing this "breed" the entirely wrong way. You cant breed a swallow and an osterich and expect to get a dodo out of it.

The best way to recreate the breed is to go back to the origins of the breed and find out what the cross there was. Then recreate that cross, introduce the blood that was introduced in the original lines. So if the original was a percheron x appy then you breed a percheron to an appy. If 4 generations later they introduced some TB blood then you introduce some TB blood. 

You dont just go out and breed 2 totaly non related (related to the breed that is) horses to try and get something that looks similar. I can breed a shire to a percheron, it may give me something that looks like a clyde but it isnt a clyde!


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> actualy my original question was entirely to do with the thread as there are probably hundreds of draft stallions out there each with thier own attributes and breed standards.
> 
> Asking for a double dilute stallion with no other qualities screams colour breeder (colour breeders being those who couldnt give a **** what the horses conformation or preformance ability is provided it is a pretty colour). I will not help colour breeders.
> 
> ...


So by saying I was involved in Sugarbush drafts was a red rag to a bull was it? Are you seriously saying that you were rude to me because Of the way I worded the question? I think not, I think you would have told me I was breeding a mutt either way. You don't have to help colour breeders but you don't need to be rude. Manners cost nothing.

Also... Who says I am breeding for colour. There seems to be a common misconception that the Sugarbush MUST be spotty. This is not true. As I have said again and again it is the horse underneath and colour is a bonus. 

I wanted a big draft who will be assessed for his conformation and movement before deciding if he matches my filly because it will be her first foal and is likely to be small. I fancied seeing if I could find I dilute or double dilute because I like the colour and my girl is dilute herself, but even if their is one available it doesn't mean it would match up well to my girl. 

I can't believe you are justifying being rude because you assumed I was breeding for colour rather than just asking me.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

faye said:


> Thing is you seem to be going about restoreing this "breed" the entirely wrong way. You cant breed a swallow and an osterich and expect to get a dodo out of it.
> 
> The best way to recreate the breed is to go back to the origins of the breed and find out what the cross there was. Then recreate that cross, introduce the blood that was introduced in the original lines. So if the original was a percheron x appy then you breed a percheron to an appy. If 4 generations later they introduced some TB blood then you introduce some TB blood.
> 
> You dont just go out and breed 2 totaly non related (related to the breed that is) horses to try and get something that looks similar. I can breed a shire to a percheron, it may give me something that looks like a clyde but it isnt a clyde!


I have explained how I will integrate the original blood into these horses once they are the correct type at least 3 times, I don't think I need to again.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Freyannia said:


> The problem is that certain people are Not taking part in a discussion, they are making Rude remarks and stating what they think are facts and not discussing anything.
> 
> Actually, i never gave a reason why i was looking for a dilute stallion, I explained why i would prefer a draft as my filly needs to be covered by a full draft (which would be assessed for suitability before any decision was made) in order to be eligable to have the foal count as a G1, working towards the ideal type before I can start to try and get horses breeding true.
> 
> ...


 Its impossible to offer suggestions for a stallion without knowing what a person is aiming to breed. There has to be more information to give an answer.
You then stated you were wanting to breed a Sugarbush Draft. Maybe 'mutt' was a harsh word to use but it is what it implies - a mixed breed horse of no definite or predictable type as the progeny can go in so many directions. You may get a really nice horse but chances are you might not.
I think you will find that all of the replies you disliked are made by people who are concerned about the high numbers of horses being bred with no market for them - other than the slaughter trade which is a lot bigger than you want to believe it is.
I repeat my last post - if you want to produce a spotted draft horse then take a look at the Pinzgaur Noriker breed


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Its impossible to offer suggestions for a stallion without knowing what a person is aiming to breed. There has to be more information to give an answer.
> You then stated you were wanting to breed a Sugarbush Draft. Maybe 'mutt' was a harsh word to use but it is what it implies - a mixed breed horse of no definite or predictable type as the progeny can go in so many directions. You may get a really nice horse but chances are you might not.
> I think you will find that all of the replies you disliked are made by people who are concerned about the high numbers of horses being bred with no market for them - other than the slaughter trade which is a lot bigger than you want to believe it is.
> I repeat my last post - if you want to produce a spotted draft horse then take a look at the Pinzgaur Noriker breed


I only asked if anyone knew of any dilute drafts in the country, I didn't expect anyone to match my filly with a stallion for me, I just wanted to know if anyone knew where to look. Nothing more.

It is not necessarily spotted drafts I am breeding. Some will maybe be spotty, others won't. I said I was in a breeding program to re establish the Sugarbush Draft not that I was just going to breed one. I explained this several times also.

To be honest I still do not see how breeding animals for myself is going to have any effect on the animals bred and sold for slaughter.

Also, being concerned about the number of horses going to slaughter is no excuse for being rude.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Freyannia said:


> I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then. If you read back I did not reject your idea of a Suffolk stallion, I just said I hadn't seen any yet that would make a good match.
> 
> I have also already looked into Norikers and they do not have the height I need. Again remember I am looking to imitate the Sugarbush and then introduce the original blood. So at first yes my horses will be cross breeds which I have already explained. I seem to be going over the same points again and again here.


 I apologise I missed this post.
Its pretty standard for people on the forum to use the term - OP or she/him/they - I havent known anyone to be offended by it before
The Suffolk Punch is a breed that has remained true for centuries - one looks much the same as another.
It took the Sugarbush people 50 years to get to where they are now and they are still struggling - evident when you see that they are opening up their register to pretty much anything now. 
If you started with a Noriker mare on a percheron or a Suffolk Punch you would get more height and they are similar in appearance so no major loss of type - the top height for a Noriker is 16hh which is probably why they have increased in popularity where the much larger draft breeds are declining
The advice you are disliking so much is being given to help you to NOT fail
Maybe you could post a pic of your mare?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> If the OP wants to look closer to home for a spotted draft horse - if thats what she likes - then she should look at the Pinzgaur Noriker, its an historic european breed, its been 'pure' since 1903 and it currently has the largest numbers of draft horses on its registry in Europe
> 
> If you look at these horses I would say they are exactly what the Sugarbush breeders were trying to achieve


How about a nice Knabstrupper? hardy,used tobe driven, and great natures,but not really draft horse
Knabstrupper Society GB Great Britain UK Knabstruppers for Sale, Knabstrupper News, UK Stallions at Stud KNN Daughter Organisation Mother Stud Book


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I apologise I missed this post.
> Its pretty standard for people on the forum to use the term - OP or she/him/they - I havent known anyone to be offended by it before
> The Suffolk Punch is a breed that has remained true for centuries - one looks much the same as another.
> It took the Sugarbush people 50 years to get to where they are now and they are still struggling - evident when you see that they are opening up their register to pretty much anything now.
> ...


The general tone of the posts made the she offensive, not using the term itself. Although the OP is a much less offensive term. As I said I have only been here 3 days so far this is the only thread I have read using she or this person instead of OP. 

I just want to point out that they have not opened the registry to pretty much anything. Each horse has been assessed and must be within 70% of the ideal, not desirable... Ideal. Over 200 people put there horses forwards to be assessed and they only approved about 40 of those before closing the registry again.

I appreciate that some people have given me advice which will be taken under consideration but others haven't.

There is a picture of my mare and one of my filly under my horses. Until my computer is fixed that's the only ones I have available ATM... Will have a look and see if I can find some others. 

I may have one of my mare & filly when my filly was very young but that's not helpful. Although I did mention before this is for a breeding over a year and a half at the soonest away. I'm not a business so I like to plan well ahead and have several options. If I can't find a decent match for her she won't be covered. I would rather have an empty mare than one covered by a substandard stallion.
My mare is an Ardennes from the old lines and my filly is a maxi cob (warmblood over her dam). My mare has consistently bred maxi cobs no matter what stallion has been used on her although Prima is the only foal I have from her as I bought her after her previous foal had been weaned.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Clava said:


> How about a nice Knabstrupper? hardy,used tobe driven, and great natures,but not really draft horse
> Knabstrupper Society GB Great Britain UK Knabstruppers for Sale, Knabstrupper News, UK Stallions at Stud KNN Daughter Organisation Mother Stud Book


Funnily enough I was considering Fintel. Not because of his colour but because I have worked with and now people with some of his foals. I like what he produces. Plus he is similar in build to my fillies sire so I am pretty much guaranteed a maxi cob type from him.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Your photos didnt come through - please could you re-post?
I looked at the Sugarbush breed characterstics and they give a max height of 16.2
If you are using an Ardennes mare then I think using any of the UK Draft stallions you are likely to get something above the 16.2 height
The Ardennes are a very heavy draft breed so you could probably use a smaller Irish Draft stallion and get what you want in terms of size and build but - dont accuse me of being rude please - that isnt going to = a SugarBush. I am back with the Noriker or as Calava suggested the Knabstrup might be idea


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Your photos didnt come through - please could you re-post?
> I looked at the Sugarbush breed characterstics and they give a max height of 16.2
> If you are using an Ardennes mare then I think using any of the UK Draft stallions you are likely to get something above the 16.2 height
> The Ardennes are a very heavy draft breed so you could probably use a smaller Irish Draft stallion and get what you want in terms of size and build but - dont accuse me of being rude please - that isnt going to = a SugarBush. I am back with the Noriker or as Calava suggested the Knabstrup might be idea


My mare is from the old lines before they bulked up the Ardennes for the meat market. As you can see she is a lot finer than the more commonly found Ardennes. She is 15.2hh which is the top height for a mare of her type. She is actually going to a 16hh appy stallion that has draft ancestry and is well suited to her type. As per usual she will have a maxi cob foal. 

This is the only 1/2 decent pic I can find ATM :-( until my comp is fixed. That's about 2-3 days after foaling.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Lol you should see the filly now! She is a fluffy tank that moves like a warmblood . she should shed out to a chocolate palomino apparently.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Freyannia said:


> Lol you should see the filly now! She is a fluffy tank that moves like a warmblood . she should shed out to a chocolate palomino apparently.


 She's a great sort of mare for breeding cobs or hunters - again - dont get me wrong here as I know you've bought into the Sugarbush thing so I dont want to offend you but to me you have a great opportunity to breed quality horses that there is an existing UK showring demand for
You could put that mare to a big TB or sporthorse stallion and have no trouble selling the results - if you are only breeding to get one horse for yourself then thats a totally different thing but I'm getting the impression that you have entered into the Sugarbush programme as a bigger scale thing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on that?
The more crosses you introduce into the mix the more likelihood you have of getting throwbacks as you proceed
I found one pic of a Percheron x Appy and its not as heavy as you'd imagine that cross would be but your mare crossed with a smaller Appy or a Knabstrupper and the result crossed with a Percheron might work - the risk is you end up with something too tall for the breed criteria
I'm still not sure how much demand there would be for the offspring though but that only matters if you are wanting to do it on a commercial basis I suppose


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Funnily enough i had people bidding for the filly the day she was born lol. i had fully intended to sell her foal to help pay to do up or part buy a new trailer, until Prima popped out and i decided against it.

The stallion I am taking her to is a 16hh fewspot appy. Similar build to Prima's sire only taller.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We had that with the first foal we bred off a welshxTB mare that we put to a heavy coloured stallion for a really low stud fee, people used to come to the house to ask to buy her. We sold her as a 2 year old for more money than we made for anything else we ever bred she was a stunner!!!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

So after all this, I gather you have found and decided upon, a stud?

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

FeatheredFeet said:


> So after all this, I gather you have found and decided upon, a stud?
> 
> Lizzie


Not for my filly lol my mare was already decided upon but I am researching potential studs for my filly


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Now I'm confused. I thought this stud was for your mare, to try to make Sugarbush horses. 

Lizzie


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

No no, the stallion i am using for my mare is already approved by them for a "G1 foal" to start working towards their ideal type, as per the SDHR regulations my mares filly can produce a G1 foal if bred to a full draft stallion, however her first foal will be a horse specifically for my husband probably to drive as I am not sure he will ever be well enough to ride again and his horse (our Clydesdale) is now retired.

So we planned to breed him a horse that will be easy to ride if he is able but that he can drive if he isn't. She will breed one foal and then go away to be trained and compete with a friend for however many years before coming back to us later. 

I like dilutes hence asking if anyone knew of a heavy dilute stallion. 

My filly is classed as a maxi cob but as she is only half draft we want her to go to a full draft so that my hubby ends up with a similar sort of horse that he is used to. If she goes to something fine we may end up with a fine foal and he needs a bulky, gentle, soft, calm but intelligent horse. We will never manage to replace the bond he has with Charlie as they helped each other get well when Charlie was recovering from Cancer and hubby's Crohn's went into semi remission for a period of time. But I want to at least give him a horse he can build a bond with for a few years while he isn't up to anything physical, before it is trained and they can go do their thing together.

Does that make a bit more sense?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

OP (sorry) - you might find this interesting
I found this on the All Breeds Pedigree - it might help you figuring out how to breed to get what you want as it does show the lineage for a Sugarbush Draft - pretty much as some of us thought - a Percheron plus some unknown draft breed that was mostly Percheron and an Appaloosa
The horse called Sugarbush Harley-quinne was foaled in 1999 and is a Percheron x Stonewall Draft which was a Percheron x Appy
You must make up your own mind about this but it gives me doubts about them as a longstanding breed
You might do better to concentrate on breeding something just to suit your husbands needs and not worry too much about how it fits into their criteria - maybe even go out and buy him something that you know will do the job - I loved all the horses we bred (too much in some cases as it made them hard to sell) but out of them all only 1 would have been my 'perfect' horse.
Sugarbush Harley-quinne Draft
Please dont take this the wrong way - not wanting to offend you or argue. I dont want to be the enemy here


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm not offended at all. I do want to breed hubby's horse as it gets him involved, he will be able to have a say in everything. Plus it gives him at least 3 years to get a good bond with the horse, which will hopefully be enough time for mis health to improve a bit as he is really really bad ATM. Planning this is giving him something to think about and then a goal to work towards.

This was one of the stallions he asked me to consider for her. He is from the Doura line like Charlie which for him is a bit sentimental. I have told him to keep an open mind though because there are plenty of great stallions out there and I don't want him to fall for the first one he sees.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I do have a soft spot for the Clydes - partly because I have a Clyde X I suppose. They are native to you as well so probably more to choose from
I have had a lot to do with Irish Drafts and also own one of those - she is a real star and so genuine and uncomplicated.
I think if you took your hubbie out to try some horses it might be a good way to start.
I found the Pedigree for Sugarbush Harleys Classic O too - they really are Percherons with a touch of Appy from a few generations back so maybe look at some Percherons - there are some people on the Forum that will vouch for them.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I do have a soft spot for the Clydes - partly because I have a Clyde X I suppose. They are native to you as well so probably more to choose from
> I have had a lot to do with Irish Drafts and also own one of those - she is a real star and so genuine and uncomplicated.
> I think if you took your hubbie out to try some horses it might be a good way to start.
> I found the Pedigree for Sugarbush Harleys Classic O too - they really are Percherons with a touch of Appy from a few generations back so maybe look at some Percherons - there are some people on the Forum that will vouch for them.


Yeah that boy is in Aberdeen. Not too far at all. There is a Percheron I like in Yorkshire, big black bruiser of a beastie. Not sure if he will still be standing in a couple of years or not but he is nice too. Lots of nice horses to consider


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

Freyannia said:


> I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then. If you read back I did not reject your idea of a Suffolk stallion, I just said I hadn't seen any yet that would make a good match.
> 
> I have also already looked into Norikers and they do not have the height I need. Again remember I am looking to imitate the Sugarbush and then introduce the original blood. So at first yes my horses will be cross breeds which I have already explained. I seem to be going over the same points again and again here.


And really, you have continued to try to answer all of this over and over. Forgive me as I was genuinely bored of the retorts and rudeness that I did not read past page 6. But did you ever get your question answered?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Tho original question? No. No one offered an answer as to wether there was a dilute draft stallion in this country so from that I would assume that no one knows of one.  someone mentioned the American Cream Draft but didn't think there was any in this country and someone else suggested I look into the gypsy stallions, I haven't seen a dilute solid gypsy but that doesn't mean there isn't one out there


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I can't remember seeing a dilute draft stud advertised anywhere, certainly not a purebred one at any rate so if you found one it would probably be a cross and to me that probably wouldn't be the best route to go down if you're trying to work towards a Sugarbush. I have seen a couple of dilute Gypsy stallions but one is a tobiano and the other is below the height you want. I'd vote the same way as the others, go back to a Percheron if they were used in the original make up of the breed because you're more likely to end up with a foal more along the lines of what you want. Breeding your filly to a Knabstrupper to me wouldn't be the best idea because it's not a draft breed. I may have read who was to breed to the Knabstrupper wrong and it was the filly's dam you want to breed to the Knabstrupper.


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## Freyannia (Jan 24, 2013)

Yeah that's right it was the filly's dam I had been thinking about putting to a Knabstrupper. It was only out of curiosity as colour is a bonus and I like dilutes a lot but it isn't the main thing on my list of essentials


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Thought it might be, I was getting confused. As far as I can find there just aren't any though I did find a very amusing ad for a Percheron x some kind of Appaloosa, definitely not an ad that would give me an incentive to breed any mare to him. Like Faye said though if pics were given then those better on conformation can help find a stallion that would compliment her rather than just tossing out random stallions.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

rbarlo32 said:


> So not true, there are other pure breeds out there. The British Shetland pony, the Icelandic and the Faroe pony are all pure.


I was merely using the Arabian as an example.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Lis said:


> I can't remember seeing a dilute draft stud advertised anywhere, certainly not a purebred one at any rate so if you found one it would probably be a cross and to me that probably wouldn't be the best route to go down if you're trying to work towards a Sugarbush. I have seen a couple of dilute Gypsy stallions but one is a tobiano and the other is below the height you want. I'd vote the same way as the others, go back to a Percheron if they were used in the original make up of the breed because you're more likely to end up with a foal more along the lines of what you want. Breeding your filly to a Knabstrupper to me wouldn't be the best idea because it's not a draft breed. I may have read who was to breed to the Knabstrupper wrong and it was the filly's dam you want to breed to the Knabstrupper.


 The 2 Sugarbush stallions (Sugarbush harley Quinne) that I found on the All breeds pedigree site (father & son) have an Appy in their bloodlines (hence the suggestion for a knabstrupper as they are a larger purebred breed of spotted) which is where the spotted colour has come from - other than that they seem to be pretty much pure Percheron. I cant find any info on the breeding of the original horses the registry talks of that were bred in the late 1950's though the Sugarbush Hitch Company (Ohio) still exists
I did find someone else who describes themselves as a breeder who said they would love to get access to a Noriker as they are a purebred spotted/variable coloured draft established over hundreds of years.
I did find a US appaloosa coloured Gypsy Vanner (as they are called here) and these larger gypsy type horses do come in all colours in the UK so shouldnt be ruled out as a possible as I'm sure someone must 'stand' one in the UK somewhere


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

There is a Gyspy cob here who is spotted but he is tiny, only about 11 or 12hh or there abouts. Thing is from what I've read on here about the Sugarbushes is they need to be 51% draft blood to be registered so a Knabstrupper wouldn't be useful in that sense for the filly, for the mare it would definitely give the colour to a potential foal to used for the next step. A Noriker would be ideal really but I don't think there are any stallions at stud in the UK, none that I've seen from a quick look round the usual sites. I did find a spotty cob at stud but he's only 15.2hh and doesn't look to have much apart from a pretty colour to stand him, reasonable looking but not much else.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hermits Cobs in the UK, have been breeding Appaloosa cobs for many years. Michael Vine also has some occasionally, I believe. They both have websites.

Lizzie


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Lis said:


> There is a Gyspy cob here who is spotted but he is tiny, only about 11 or 12hh or there abouts. Thing is from what I've read on here about the Sugarbushes is they need to be 51% draft blood to be registered so a Knabstrupper wouldn't be useful in that sense for the filly, for the mare it would definitely give the colour to a potential foal to used for the next step. A Noriker would be ideal really but I don't think there are any stallions at stud in the UK, none that I've seen from a quick look round the usual sites. I did find a spotty cob at stud but he's only 15.2hh and doesn't look to have much apart from a pretty colour to stand him, reasonable looking but not much else.


 The two Sugarbush stallions I looked at on the pedigree database have the Appy several generations back so I assume the idea is to introduce a colour like that into one cross and then use that cross to cross back with a draft - maybe several times to remove the lightweight blood and hope that the Appy or whatever colouring remained dominant. It would take quite a long time as each foal would need to be approx 3 years old before it could be put in foal - and you would have to consider what to do with the first maybe 4 crosses that weren't up to standard. You would also need access to other people doing the same thing with unrelated horses to avoid crossbreeding - could use imported semen for that I suppose
I found a US breeder called Dusty Rose ranch that claims to have 4 Sugarbush Stallions but they are also producing part bred Friesans and giving them a 'title' - for eg Gypsian.


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