# Thoughts on keeping a grade stallion....



## jaydee

The Sport Horse Breeding in the UK (used to be the Hunter Improvement Society) often has what you would call a grade stallion on its approved register because the horses are judged on quality, conformation and ability. 
The warmblood breeds are in fact all 'Grade' horses even though they have been selectively bred for years and the British Show Pony stallions are mostly the one time result of a cross between a native pony and either an arab or a small TB
I would rather use a stallion that can do something and is 'correct' than use some ugly useless thing just because it has a long pedigree


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## smrobs

Are you familiar with both sides of his ancestry? Do they compliment each other or are they differing types that happened to have a nice foal?

I'm of a mind that 95% of horse owners have absolutely no business with a stallion regardless of whether he's bred to the 9's or some inbred cull. However, knowledgeable folks who decide to take a _really _good cross (grade) that is a good representation of his breeding and use him to make a good quality using/working horse, I'd _probably _be okay with that proving that they were responsible about it...not just breeding him to anything with a uterus.


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## jimmyp

smrobs said:


> Are you familiar with both sides of his ancestry? Do they compliment each other or are they differing types that happened to have a nice foal?
> 
> I'm of a mind that 95% of horse owners have absolutely no business with a stallion regardless of whether he's bred to the 9's or some inbred cull. However, knowledgeable folks who decide to take a _really _good cross (grade) that is a good representation of his breeding and use him to make a good quality using/working horse, I'd _probably _be okay with that proving that they were responsible about it...not just breeding him to anything with a uterus.


 This particular grade colt is not one I intend to keep as anything other than a gelding, but he has me thinking. I plan to breed my paso mare to our stud at some point and depending what they throw IF they throw a colt I will likely keep it with the intent of keeping it intact, mostly because there is alot of Paso influence in the lineage of our stud. I only used my current yearling as an example because he has prompted me to think about the possibility of keeping a grade stud.

Jim


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## wakiya

I could see why someone would, but for me personally I would not. I'm trying to preserve a breed so registration is important. If it wasn't I could cross onto related breeds to preserve type, but in doing so I would lose the breed. What I'm trying to say is it depends on your overall goal of your breeding program.


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## JCnGrace

I have absolutely nothing against grade horses and have known some pretty wonderful ones in my life time. As a retired breeder though I'll give you this food for thought....

If you breed grade horses they are not going to be very marketable as youngsters unless you're willing to sell for, I'm guesstimating here given the current crappy market, a hundred bucks or less. To sell them for any decent amount of money you're going to have to raise and train them so that they can prove they are going to be good at your chosen discipline. By the time you get them to this point unless you can get $5000.00 or more out of them you are still losing money.


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## dbarabians

There is a local stallion that is not registered. He is the grandson of a mare that was a crop out QH before they allowed these horses to be registered. The mare was given away so others would not know she came from this program. She was bred to a Paint stallion one of those fillies produced the stallion. He has been used as a ranch horse and for local and highschool rodeos. He has sired some very good horses and there is a demand for these horses. In fact I have thought of breeding a mare to him.
If you have a good stallion and there is a market for his foals then I would say go for it.
Any stallion owner needs to be selective in the mares he allows his stallion to cover. Shalom


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## blue eyed pony

DB you have Arabs though - any of your mares bred to any stallion would have a foal eligible for part-Arab registration [unless my understanding of the rules is very wrong and the non-Arab has to be registered somewhere?]

My mother has a filly [originally mine] who is out of a registered part-Arab mare, by a grade stallion. She's the nicest horse we have, though a little long-backed. Being a filly this is an excusable fault. The stallion is GORGEOUS and has the most incredible temperament. Satin [now named Hippolyte] was bred to have a good temperament and she really truly does, stubborn little witch sometimes but I have yet to see her actually genuinely spook. I have nothing against breeding an unregistered horse, but the breeder has to be aware that it WILL be of less value than a registered animal, and what value it does have will be based on its temperament and training. An unhandled, unregistered horse with a poor temperament is worth nothing. Not even meat money. Even if its temperament is basically GOOD it won't be worth anything if it isn't handled.

Heck, my filly is REGISTERED [Thoroughbred] and I got her for free because she was unhandled. Had she been born a warmblood, even unhandled she'd be worth a bit, but she had the "misfortune" to be born a Thoroughbred. My chosen breed, but a breed that tends to be more popular for low-level competition than upper-level competition [where all the money is].


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## jimmyp

JCnGrace said:


> I have absolutely nothing against grade horses and have known some pretty wonderful ones in my life time. As a retired breeder though I'll give you this food for thought....
> 
> If you breed grade horses they are not going to be very marketable as youngsters unless you're willing to sell for, I'm guesstimating here given the current crappy market, a hundred bucks or less. To sell them for any decent amount of money you're going to have to raise and train them so that they can prove they are going to be good at your chosen discipline. By the time you get them to this point unless you can get $5000.00 or more out of them you are still losing money.



Well, like I said we raise rockies, and tend to move them along pretty early. 

I tend to buy and flip 1-2 gaited horses a year with some training as either FT or trail type horses. I would not be opposed to raising and putting some training on the babies. The fact is I'd personally rather put in the time breaking these horses at least the first few so I know what I'm turning out.

Thanks for the replies.
Jim


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## dbarabians

Blue eyed Pony I do have arabs but also own TBs, and QHs. The mares I would breed to this stallion are registered QHs. I want to get a replacement for the mares we use to rope the cattle or to train and sell as a roping prospect. Shalom


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## BlueSpark

It all comes down to market. Thoroughbreds that are hard to handle, poorly conformed or lame in some way are a dime a dozen, broke thoroughbreds that are amateur friendly are in demand, as are eye catching, athletic ones for English disciplines.

similarly with stock horses, well built, athletic, nicely conformed ones bred with a purpose are in high demand, the mediocre ones popped out by back yard breeders are plentiful.

If you pick a market, and aim to fill it, you'll have a sellable product. The biggest market out there is for safe, sane, sound, and ideally pretty saddle horses for recreational riders. The type that are uncomplicated in every way, solid 'citizens'. These don't have to be registered. I could sell my arab, without papers, 10x over at this point, because she is a horse most people can ride that is safe, sound and enjoyable. I could breed her to any nicely built, good minded, pretty stallion, put a bit of training on the foal at 4 and earn a pretty penny selling that grade horse. Even as a foal, with sire and dam on site, marketing it as the ideal future horse for _________(whatever disapline), you should be able to sell it for a decent amount. My cousins were offered thousands for their grade paint percheron cross as a newborn, the guy wanted to use the colt to sire his next line of pack and mountain horses. My cousin refused, kept him and gelded him. Looking at him now, I would breed a thoroughbred mare to him in a heartbeat, what a light driving/English sporthorse that would make! or a stock horse, for a solid built, tall, colored mountain horse.

In short, I'm not opposed to a grade stallion, but he has to prove himself in every way, and he doesn't have papers to fall back on. He must have all the qualities looked for in a horse of his type, a fantastic disposition and the ability to pass on those qualities.


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## stevenson

I dont think keeping a grade stallion is a wise choice. You have a Quality stallion , if you just want to raise horses for trails and not the show ring, then stand him to Quality mares of a diff breed. I did not think the gaited trait was easy to get in a mix ? and is there that much of
a client base to breed unregistered horses ?


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## stevenson

??? I reread on the the post, If you have RMH that are registered as RMH how do they have paso lineage ? paso fino or peruvian paso ? 
just a little bit confused here .. ?


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## Celeste

The thing that you have to consider with crossbreds is whether the genetic traits in the second generation (F2) will be similar to the first generation. 

It is pretty well established that "gaiting" is a recessive trait, so if he is gaited, and you breed him to a gaited mare, you will get a gaited foal. Since people that ride gaited horses buy them for the gait, and the traits are recessive, you should get nice marketable foals. 

That is not a blanket statement that it is good to use any grade stud. You might not get foals that will be similar to him at all. The most obvious example is breeding Fresians to other breeds. You get a fairly predictable baby; big, black horse. When you breed those offspring, the Fresian look may be totally lost in the mix.


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## jimmyp

stevenson said:


> ??? I reread on the the post, If you have RMH that are registered as RMH how do they have paso lineage ? paso fino or peruvian paso ?
> just a little bit confused here .. ?


Until a gen or 2 back it is not uncommon to look at RMH paperwork and see unknown mare or unknown stallion listed on the pedigree. Those unknowns were made up of a lot of TWH, Paso, and grade stock. I believe it was in the 80s that the registry closed. In discussion with some folks very knowledgeable in the breed I came to find that some lines in particular are known to have more Paso Funk than others, and our stallion happens to come from that lineage.

Jim


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## jimmyp

Paso Fino, not funk...... oops.

Jim.


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## KigerQueen

Well now that you have talked alot about your horses I demand pics XD!


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## QtrBel

I wouldn't not for a future breeding you have in mind that may or may not work out. It sounds like you have a ready market for your papered horses I wouldn't carry a grade stallion without a ready market for his offspring. I wouldn't cross breed without a ready market either. Not a potential market either. That said if a grade stallion is worth his salt and passes on desirable qualities readily and you can market the babies then it is up to you(general not necessarily you in particular). In this market though it isn't something I would do unless it was on a limited basis and for my own personal use.


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## its lbs not miles

jimmyp said:


> We raise RMH on our farm. we have a couple of certified broodmares and a certified stud horse. So i dont want to come off as some hill billy backyard breeder trying to sling babies.
> 
> However, that said, I have a yearling stud colt who is a RMHxAppy cross. he has a nice natural gait on pasture and will rack along next to the UTV for short workouts. MY primary goal in raising and training horses is for the trail rider and bird dog field trialer. So for 70% of the people I deal with papers and breeding are secondary to smooth gait and the ability to do the "job".
> 
> My plan is to have this youngster cut this summer just because I do not need or want him as a breeding stud, But what are yalls thoughts on keeping a grade stallion, mostly talking about pleasure/working horses.
> 
> I know that there are a ton of horses and nice studs out there already, so dont beat me up here, this is a genuine question with me looking down the road at a potential cross I have in mind.
> 
> Thank you
> Jim


I really shouldn't open a can of worms (but I will anyway :lol

You didn't mention using him for breeding, so I'm not going to directly address it (but you'll get the drift of what I'd likely say on it anyway).
Warning: the views expressed may not sit well with some.....live with it :lol:

My personal opinion on "registering" and "pure bred" was heavily influenced by my grandfather who, to the best of my knowledge (I wasn't there for most of his life) never owned a registered horse in his life. He certainly never registered one. He own some "pure bred" horses, but his take on registration was that it wasn't anything but "window dressing". Didn't make it a better horse and registering one sure didn't. All that mattered was the horse. A good horse is a good horse and if it's good enough then it's worth using to make more good horses. He applied that same concept to all his stock (cattle, hogs, etc.....). If an animal was exceptional it was used for breeding. e.g. the best bull got to keep it's balls and play with the cow...when a better bull came alone the current bull lost his job. Same deal with stallions, except that only certain mares would be bred, unlike the cows where they all got bred.
(My father did, very briefly, experiment with having some registered stock...didn't increase the quality)
In 45 years I've had 3 registered horses (all of which came registered and two of those three I currently own), but in each case the registration meant nothing to me. I bought the horse, not the breed or the registration.

Now, all the being said, I've trained stallions, mares and geldings in my life. "Pound for pound", with horses there is nothing that matches riding a good stallion. They are more work. They require closer attention. They leave very little room (might be best to say no room if you've never dealt with one) for error. Basically, everything is bigger with a stallion. If they'll work for you they'll work harder. If they fight the training they'll fight harder. They will be larger and stronger and more headstrong...and IF it comes out right they give more than you thought possible.
I do love stallions for the last item I listed. However, because of the all the previous items I don't own them anymore. Getting lazy in my old age so I stick with just mares now :lol:. However if I was a young man in by late teens or 20's again and I had an exceptional stallion that I wanted to keep for riding then I'd probably take the time, put in the work and keep him. 

Only you can answer your question. What is that stallion worth to you. Do you want to put in the time and effort to make this stallion a good trail horse or would you rather do it with him as a gelding? Do you want to use him to breed with other good mares? It's really not what anyone else thinks. If I had a good, gaited stallion and he could consistently sire naturally gaited offspring (and I was back in the stock business :lol then I'd probably use him. So many breeds that use to be naturally gaited have had it bred out of them in the past 100 years (or more). e.g. 40 years ago I'd never seen an non gaited TWH. Today I know more that don't gait than do. I won't even get started on what's happened to the ASB over the last 100 years. All registered and pure, but dropping the quality.

Of course you can also do what the US has done more than any other country over the past 300 years. Create a new breed. How long do you think the QH, TWH, ASB, SB, APHA, RMH, Morgan, Appaloosa, etc.... (all North American breeds...Canada has added a few too) have been around (and the no longer existing "breeds" that were used in creating them...Saddlers, NP, American Horse, etc... that came in went during those 300 years).


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## Incitatus32

^Agreed. I for one have no problem with grade studs as long as they are the best example for their job. I know a guy who has a Appaloosa/TWH mix who is nothing special aside from the fact that he is the best trail/family horse. The guy raises Paint horses and decided that he would offer him to stud to two friends mares and see how the colts were, if they were good than he would keep him a stud, if they were just ordinary horseflesh the stud would be gelded. 

Both foals turned out exceptionally well so he remained in tact. I've yet to see a bad foal from the horse and this is about 15 years later! In my experience a good horse is a good horse and you have to judge them equally on their temperament and conformation before you look at breeding. 

Before I got my mare she was bred to a grade stud. Her baby went on to be a really good barrel horse, and kids show horse. In his 20 years of showing he never brought home less than a second place.


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## smrobs

For what I do, registration is un-necessary, but in breeding, IMHO, registration isn't just about the "window dressing". It's about being able to track the type of horse that went into _creating_ the stud in question. For example, if I end up with a stud that is a superb cutting horse...knowing his lineage (which is verified by his papers instead of just trusting Joe Blow that he's bred a certain way, people are known to lie about such things) would help me decide whether I wanted to keep him a stud and breed him to create more cow savvy using horses. However, some random grade horse who happens to be a really good cutter may be bred that way....or they may be a total fluke and, if bred, produce horses more suited to WP or Dressage or whatever else which isn't what I'm looking for. Or, in spite of a really sweet and trainable temperament on him, he might produce nothing but raging psychopaths.

So, in keeping with that train of thought, I'm not so okay with breeding just some random grade horse, even if they're awesome. However, if both sides of the lineage are known but the horse just can't be registered for whatever reason and he's a great example of both sides of his breeding and they compliment each other, then yes, I can see breeding him.


Also, since it appears some other folks missed it, I thought I would mention that the OP isn't planning to keep his colt a stud. It just got him thinking about grade studs in general.


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## ponyboy

jimmyp said:


> We raise RMH on our farm. we have a couple of certified broodmares and a certified stud horse. So i dont want to come off as some hill billy backyard breeder trying to sling babies.
> 
> However, that said, I have a yearling stud colt who is a RMHxAppy cross. he has a nice natural gait on pasture and will rack along next to the UTV for short workouts. MY primary goal in raising and training horses is for the trail rider and bird dog field trialer. So for 70% of the people I deal with papers and breeding are secondary to smooth gait and the ability to do the "job".
> 
> My plan is to have this youngster cut this summer just because I do not need or want him as a breeding stud, But what are yalls thoughts on keeping a grade stallion, mostly talking about pleasure/working horses.
> 
> I know that there are a ton of horses and nice studs out there already, so dont beat me up here, this is a genuine question with me looking down the road at a potential cross I have in mind.
> 
> Thank you
> Jim


It sounds to me like this colt would sell well if you gelded and trained him.


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## squirrelfood

The problem with breeding horses of mixed breeding is you never know WHICH part of their breeding will be passed on at any given breeding. So their foals can be pretty inconsistent. Not a good thing if you are looking for anything specific from the foals.


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## jimmyp

KigerQueen said:


> Well now that you have talked alot about your horses I demand pics XD!


I wish I knew how to. I'd like to post a few. Most forums I've been on use photo bucket. My photo bucket account is messed up so I'm S.O.L

Jim


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## Doodlesweaver

OP, sorry for my lack of knowledge but what is a "grade" stallion? What does "grade" mean?


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## Doodlesweaver

Jim, get a second photobucket account with a different email. That might work.


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## smrobs

A grade horse is one, of any breed or combination of breeds, that is not registered with a reputable breed (_not_ color) registry.


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## stevenson

Thanks for the info on the RMH breed. I did not know they had Paso fino .. funk..lol..
that was funny.


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## KigerQueen

To be honest, i would rather have a grade horse worth their salt, than a registered horse with so many issues from "pure" breeding. Its like getting a AKC registered dog or a mut, one is healthier and its not the pure bred. Same with horses, there are some good registerd stock but i can post several registered horses going for over 1k on c list that have "LOVELY" confo and training.


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## ZaneyZanne123

This is just my two cents here. If I wanted to breed my mare (if I had one I wanted to breed) and my two choices were a well conformed, easy gaited, level headed grade stud and a poorly conformed, questional gait, ill tempered registerd stalllion I would go with grade any day. 
There are just as many junk registered animals as there are grade. Pedigrees guarantee very little. Look how many useless animals have champion blood lines and arent worth the dirt they stand upon for various reasons (mostly conformational train wrecks) 

Now one must be selective, and objective when breeding. Have a purpose intended for the offspring. I wanted to breed my late mare to a very nice stallion. He was triple registered but I would have bred her to him even if he wasnt registered at all. He was VERY level headed with a superb temperment and a conformation to die for along with a great natural gait. (the three things I look for in a good horse not just blood lines and champion ancestry) He was ideal stallion material. He was also Homozygous paint. His offspring took on his genes and were nice animals. My intentions was to have the best of both sides from him and my mare and to make a great trail horse and low level show animal. (unsanctioned shows) Unfortunatly to many other things where going against this breeding union and I chose not to risk my mare. 

There is alot of junk out there and to many of them and horses right now are a dime a dozen. So again I say be selective, have a plan, be ready to train and keep this animal's offspring if things dont turn out just as you plan.


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## squirrelfood

Agreed, ZZ. But breeding grade horses is even MORE of a crapshoot than breeding registered where you can at least KNOW if there is any crappy junk in the pedigree. And yes, there are a lot of registered junk; even MORE good registered stuff. Just like there are a LOT of junk grade horses but not so many really good ones. Percentages tell, whether you like it or not.


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## its lbs not miles

smrobs said:


> For what I do, registration is un-necessary, but in breeding, IMHO, registration isn't just about the "window dressing". It's about being able to track the type of horse that went into _creating_ the stud in question. For example, if I end up with a stud that is a superb cutting horse...knowing his lineage (which is verified by his papers instead of just trusting Joe Blow that he's bred a certain way, people are known to lie about such things) would help me decide whether I wanted to keep him a stud and breed him to create more cow savvy using horses. However, some random grade horse who happens to be a really good cutter may be bred that way....or they may be a total fluke and, if bred, produce horses more suited to WP or Dressage or whatever else which isn't what I'm looking for. Or, in spite of a really sweet and trainable temperament on him, he might produce nothing but raging psychopaths.
> 
> So, in keeping with that train of thought, I'm not so okay with breeding just some random grade horse, even if they're awesome. However, if both sides of the lineage are known but the horse just can't be registered for whatever reason and he's a great example of both sides of his breeding and they compliment each other, then yes, I can see breeding him.
> 
> 
> Also, since it appears some other folks missed it, I thought I would mention that the OP isn't planning to keep his colt a stud. It just got him thinking about grade studs in general.


And yet EVERY great horse's blood line started out with a horse that had nothing to recommend it other than it was a good horse.
e.g. in the case of Secretariat you only have to go back about 6 generations to find some of his ancestors that never raced and many who did didn't have a lot of wins, while others did. Continue going back and you'd eventual find most just being good horses.
Where do you think all the great horses came from? You can't honestly think that they all came from the same horse.

And great horses have had their share of duds down the line too, so I'll stick with a good horse that's proven over a great bloodline. I watched my grandfather never produce a dud his way in 20 years and saw my father come out with two duds using his registered, high value stock in 5 years (duds might be a strong work...they weren't no good or useless so perhaps I should say not as good ) which is why it was a short lived experiment. That's just me :lol:. Everyone can do what they like. 

People didn't want to breed to Secretariat because of his blood line. They did because he was a proven incredible and exceptional horse. He could have been out of two horses that never saw a track and were just used for teaching children to ride and people would still have flocked to have his blood in their breeding. Which is why all great horses ultimately came from a basically unknown bloodline horse that happen to be better and so a breeder wanted to use it in hopes of getting more horses like it. Then 200 years later everyone touts the great bloodline....but it came form nothing which is how they all started out.


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## its lbs not miles

squirrelfood said:


> The problem with breeding horses of mixed breeding is you never know WHICH part of their breeding will be passed on at any given breeding. So their foals can be pretty inconsistent. Not a good thing if you are looking for anything specific from the foals.


And yet breeding various horses is how every breed of domestic horse in existence today came into being. That is how it's all done. Look at every breed of horse developed in the "Americas" (North, Central or South) in just 300 years. A lot of breeds even if you just look at the ones that are still around and don't take into account the ones that were developed and then replaced by another breed that they were used to develop (by more cross breeding).

Cross breeding is the life blood of creating better horses. No existing breed would be here without it. (and yes, that includes the few surviving obscenely old breeds like Arabians and Friesians in case someone was thinking of using them as an exception....they aren't. Cross breeding was also used in creating what they are).


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## squirrelfood

Also true, but if you really dig into it, you will see how LONG it took to get the characteristics they wanted to stabilize. It didn't happen in just a couple generations, and there were a LOT of culls getting there. How many culls can you afford to feed (or send to slaughter) while you are getting one or 2 like you want from that grade horse? These days, no one really has a use for your culls, as there are already too many of them.


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## ZaneyZanne123

squirrelfood said:


> Agreed, ZZ. But breeding grade horses is even MORE of a crapshoot than breeding registered where you can at least KNOW if there is any crappy junk in the pedigree. And yes, there are a lot of registered junk; even MORE good registered stuff. Just like there are a LOT of junk grade horses but not so many really good ones. Percentages tell, whether you like it or not.


Your right, I mean your chances are better with a proven breeding record than a non record. With unregistered, unproven, unknown lineage you might be breeding bad stuff you dont know about that can show up with the offspring. Then you have another mess to feed. 
So many ppl beleive its a guarantee if you breed with registration or if the animal has papers of some sort and its not, its wishful thinking in that regard. Greatness often skips generations. One must be selective either way.


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## its lbs not miles

squirrelfood said:


> Also true, but if you really dig into it, you will see how LONG it took to get the characteristics they wanted to stabilize. It didn't happen in just a couple generations, and there were a LOT of culls getting there. How many culls can you afford to feed (or send to slaughter) while you are getting one or 2 like you want from that grade horse? These days, no one really has a use for your culls, as there are already too many of them.


In many cases less then 6 generations (under 20 years). That's not very long. A person could develop 3 different breeds, not simultaneously, in their lifetime.
And since I'm sure you'll ask what breeds did this in so short a time I'll give a few examples :lol: of horse breeds developed in North America that were stabilized breeds within 6 generations or less.
ASB, TWH, American Horse, Morgan (just to list a few of the "older" ones).


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## its lbs not miles

Going a step farther, all of the breeds I listed, were created using mostly unregistered grade stock that all had a common desired trait, being bred to a specific or a few stallions that had a desired trait. In the case of ASB and TWH it was the "saddler" which was never a "breed" but simply a grade animal that was naturally gaited. These horses were commonly known as "saddlers" (AKA Kentucky Saddler, Ohio Saddler, etc......). They where hugely popular in the (then) western states (like Ohio), much of PA and MD and all the Southern states (KY and all points south and east of it).
It's not difficult to develop a breed with stabilized characteristics if you have good stock to start with. People have been doing for a LONG time with all sorts of animals.


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## squirrelfood

I am not arguing that it has been done, we all know that. What I want to know is are you willing to keep and care for all the culls produced along the way, or are you going to dump them for slaughter? Or simply keep ignoring the fact there will be culls? In today's world, unlike even 20 years ago, there is NO more room for the culls to find a purpose. And there WILL be culls.


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## Celeste

There are culls in purebred breeding programs as well.


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## its lbs not miles

squirrelfood said:


> I am not arguing that it has been done, we all know that. What I want to know is are you willing to keep and care for all the culls produced along the way, or are you going to dump them for slaughter? Or simply keep ignoring the fact there will be culls? In today's world, unlike even 20 years ago, there is NO more room for the culls to find a purpose. And there WILL be culls.


Absolutely eat them. Horse meat is arguably the healthiest of all domestic red meat (goat is 2nd, but it's a very close comparison depending on what nutritional values you look at). Horse meat is lean and loaded with omega 3 (for those who don't care for fish) and since humans are not able to process omega 3 for plants very well, it's a great solution. If you lived in Europe long enough you'll have eaten it whether you knew it or not. Less than 100 years ago it was still eaten in the US. It's much better solution than any other we have (especially what we currently do) for all the excess horse flesh we have in this country (and have you looked at the price of meat lately).

And as quite accurately stated already, even registered stock produce animals that "should" be culled (even if they're not) which is one of the many reasons breeds have become shadows of what they once were.

What's the difference between culling substandard horses that don't "measure up" and all the unwanted OTTB's that are dumped at the rate of about 5,000 per year (and these are registered, professionally bred, TB with good blood lines.....but they didn't measure up to what they were bred for).

Just and FYI for those who aren't familiar with the "saddlers". You can still see them (sort of). The RMH (what a misnomer :lol was a saddler cross, but it has a color gene that gives it the unique coloring required for a RMH. Like the ASB, etc.... the saddler was the primary blood (for the easy riding) in the development (one non saddler stallion with the gene bred to saddler mares), but unlike the ASB, TWH, etc... the RMH didn't really alter much beyond adding the color gene. So what they got was a saddler with a pretty and consistent (sometimes striking) set of colors vs pretty much any color which is what you got with a saddler.


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## KigerQueen

^ unless its filled with medications like bute, then your brain frise and you die.


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## its lbs not miles

KigerQueen said:


> ^ unless its filled with medications like bute, then your brain frise and you die.


Not a problem for culls. A breeder is not going to keep a cull and if they're being responsible with regard to the breed the animal would only need to wait about 6 months to be completely clear of any worming medication it might have been given while young.

Of course all this is off the topic, but yes, there are people who keep horses on "bute" and since I've yet to see any real study on it, the ban on it "ever" being used with regard to meat intended for human consumption is still around. Although it's not detectable in the meat after a relatively short time period so it does make one wonder if the "ever" ban isn't something cooked up by the "horses should never be eaten" crowd.

Of course they scream over the worming medication too, but no one seems to mind that it's in the commercially grown pork. I tend to think it's a case of "let's find every excuse possible" in hopes of insuring that the problem of hundreds of thousands of unwanted horses continues in the US. Amazingly we have more horses than any other country in the world (resulting in more unwanted horses than any other country in the world) and we're the only country with a major horse population (unless we want to add the UK) that doesn't slaughter them as food.

And even the ones that are restricted for human consumption can still feed my dog, animals in zoos, etc..... It's still an massive waste of a lot of usable protein to not use it as food for something.

Of course I guess it does get used though. Worms and buzzards have to eat (now that bothers me more than a person or other higher animal eating one of mine)


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## jimmyp

squirrelfood said:


> I am not arguing that it has been done, we all know that. What I want to know is are you willing to keep and care for all the culls produced along the way, or are you going to dump them for slaughter? Or simply keep ignoring the fact there will be culls? In today's world, unlike even 20 years ago, there is NO more room for the culls to find a purpose. And there WILL be culls.


I dont have a problem with culls, Ive been breeding competitive hunting dogs long enough there is a bucket next to my whelping box. 

As far as being willing to keep one if it doesnt turn out...... Well, at the moment we are feeding 3 duds from my wife and father in laws barrel racing breedings, and to call them duds isnt really fare because they are all 2-3D horses. But they arent what they wanted so these horses have made nice trail and stock horses for the last 10-15yrs. 

No one wants to cull, but it is a necesity. 

I see several of you saying that breeding horses with unknown background is a crapshoot, no one said the background on any of my horses is unknown. even my current Grade horse (RMHxAppy) posted in the original question, I have papers for mother and sire. In my mind there is a HUGE difference between grade and Mutt. I wont breed for registered stock without having a general Idea of wht it will produce, I certainly dont have any desire to breed for grade without intentions of producing something useful.

Jim


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## SunnyDraco

The biggest issue I have with breeding grade stallions who are excellent in every way is when the grade is a cross from two different breeds that are distinct from one another. They tend to cause more of a gamble in breeding because you don't know which breed characteristics they will produce. They don't combine the best of the two breeds and pass it on like they were a product of, they pass on one side of their breeding much stronger and it isn't always the same breed characteristics they pass on each time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark

I've seen the results of many breedings, and its very interesting. My foal this year is a perfect combination of his dam(arab) and sire(thoroughbred). 

My cousins bred a percheron mare to a paint stallion and ended up with a stunning colt that many people have offered large sums of money for.

My BO bred a well bred thoroughbred mare that was fast, but had been injured young on the track, to a stallion that was extremely well bred and had proven himself extensively as a sire. The mare was 16.3hh, the sire 15.3hh. The goal for the foal was to race. He, from day 1, hated running. He would watch his fellow foals race on the sidelines. When he got running he was always last. At 2, when he was sold as a polo pony prospect, he was 14.1hh, barely.

I agree that having a registered horse, who's lineage you can trace, is ideal, but as has been said by others, I would rather breed to a proven stallion that's grade than one that got to keep the family jewels based on nothing but a piece of paper, which unfortunately is the case with a good percentage of studs out there.


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## NdAppy

Another added factor of papers... When genetic deformities like HERDA and HYPP pop up knowing the lineage of the horse can help determine who it links to and narrow down who possibly has it, etc, etc.


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## squirrelfood

NdAppy said:


> Another added factor of papers... When genetic deformities like HERDA and HYPP pop up knowing the lineage of the horse can help determine who it links to and narrow down who possibly has it, etc, etc.


And knowing there is a possibility of a genetic disease, you can test before you breed and avoid a foal that has to be put down, or that dies an ugly death very young.


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## squirrelfood

BlueSpark said:


> I've seen the results of many breedings, and its very interesting. My foal this year is a perfect combination of his dam(arab) and sire(thoroughbred).
> 
> My cousins bred a percheron mare to a paint stallion and ended up with a stunning colt that many people have offered large sums of money for.
> 
> My BO bred a well bred thoroughbred mare that was fast, but had been injured young on the track, to a stallion that was extremely well bred and had proven himself extensively as a sire. The mare was 16.3hh, the sire 15.3hh. The goal for the foal was to race. He, from day 1, hated running. He would watch his fellow foals race on the sidelines. When he got running he was always last. At 2, when he was sold as a polo pony prospect, he was 14.1hh, barely.
> 
> I agree that having a registered horse, who's lineage you can trace, is ideal, but as has been said by others, I would rather breed to a proven stallion that's grade than one that got to keep the family jewels based on nothing but a piece of paper, which unfortunately is the case with a good percentage of studs out there.


At 2, he was nowhere near done growing. And it's a fact some horses are just slower growing than others. EVEN in TB's.


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## its lbs not miles

SunnyDraco said:


> The biggest issue I have with breeding grade stallions who are excellent in every way is when the grade is a cross from two different breeds that are distinct from one another. They tend to cause more of a gamble in breeding because you don't know which breed characteristics they will produce. They don't combine the best of the two breeds and pass it on like they were a product of, they pass on one side of their breeding much stronger and it isn't always the same breed characteristics they pass on each time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What comes for distinct and different ......you mean like the creation of the TB, Andalusian, Lipizzan, ASB, TWH, American Horse (just a footnote to history today), etc, etc, etc, etc....(how many breeds of horse have been created through domestication and cross breeding between different and distinct?.....ALL of them) :lol:, not to mention the variety of "Warmbloods" which dominate in so many of the competitive activities (created from different and distinct breeds to create something better).


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## SunnyDraco

its lbs not miles said:


> What comes for distinct and different ......you mean like the creation of the TB, Andalusian, Lipizzan, ASB, TWH, American Horse (just a footnote to history today), etc, etc, etc, etc....(how many breeds of horse have been created through domestication and cross breeding between different and distinct?.....ALL of them) :lol:, not to mention the variety of "Warmbloods" which dominate in so many of the competitive activities (created from different and distinct breeds to create something better).


Which all takes time (many generations) and careful breeding. Breeding a gaited breed which was developed over hundreds of years to another breed that was also developed separately can result in a beautiful cross and get the best from both sides. That first generation from the stallion that is from 2 very different breeds is going to be the worst for getting any predicable type, anything close to what he was would be sheer luck which is not desirable in stallions. You will be limited to mares that are from the two breeds so you don't get something completely undesirable. Most breeders and horse owners do not want to spend vast fortunes over countless decades to create a new breed, not to mention the enormous numbers of horses that would be dumped or killed because it did not fit the program. 

Even those breeding warmbloods get plenty of culls every year that will never be worth anything more than a lawn mower. Breeding type to type who are solid representations of their breeding is the best insurance you can get to predict the foal. There will always be a risk in any breeding that you don't get a foal that follows their breeding, the race bred horses that can't run, the dressage bred horses that will never be as talented as their bloodlines suggested and the list goes on and on. But there are more successful results from careful breeding then you get of duds that didn't live up to standards. But there is also a standard set by a horse's bloodline, expectations of what they were bred for. Flukes happen, an amazing horse comes from no where but is unable to reproduce themselves in the breeding shed because they are giving pieces of their lineage which isn't what they themselves took traits from. 

I was grew up with a grade mare who will never win a beauty pageant, major failure in any conformation review, jarring trot that tosses you around like a rag doll, a canter that is almost sideways in movement and no one who showed her in 4-H ever got a blue ribbon unless they were the only one in the class. In fact, my sister even got a red ribbon riding her once as the only one in the class. Nothing in this mare's lineage would have suggested such an outcome to the breeding. Her sire was a very nicely bred Quarter horse with everything you would want from a stallion and producing very nice foals. Her dam was a cross, not the best conformation but not too bad, some faults but the stallion she was bred to had very nice conformation and so it didn't seem like an issue. But the mare was an Arabian cross, 3/4 Arabian on her registration and a mixing of breeds and had grade horses a few generations back. I use this example to show that making a breeding choice with mixes of breeds can turn out very poorly, no matter how sweet the mare was or how good she was for young riders, she is undesirable in the horse market because she has unpleasant gaits and looks oddly made. The chances of getting a mare like her when breeding horses true to their breeding are very low, but the chances are much higher when you are mixing in various breeds because nothing is ever completely bred out of a horse, there will always be a trace and that can pop up in their offspring.


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## BlueSpark

> At 2, he was nowhere near done growing. And it's a fact some horses are just slower growing than others. EVEN in TB's


 I heard he grew 2 more inches, to top out at a grand total of 14.3hh. All his half siblings, even the ones out of 15hh and 15.1hh mares out grew him. More important than his height though, was the fact that he had no desire at all to do the job that he had been bred for, both parents back many generations for well over a hundred years. He was a mental and physical "dud". As a kids or ladies English horse he might have done well. Not sure how his polo pony career went. For what he was bred for he was a complete and utter failure.

The point of this is that breeding is a gamble. If a foal resulting from two horses that have been bred for a specific purpose for the last 300+ years can be a failure, a foal from other 'new' breeds (most popular registries are less than 100 years old) is even more of a gamble. Appaloosa registry accepts arab, thoroughbred and aqha out crossing, aqha accepts thoroughbred, etc, throwing more genetics onto the breeding roulette table. Breeding two individuals that are significantly different you take a big chance, even within the same breed.


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## its lbs not miles

SunnyDraco said:


> Which all takes time (many generations) and careful breeding. Breeding a gaited breed which was developed over hundreds of years to another breed that was also developed separately can result in a beautiful cross and get the best from both sides. That first generation from the stallion that is from 2 very different breeds is going to be the worst for getting any predicable type, anything close to what he was would be sheer luck which is not desirable in stallions. You will be limited to mares that are from the two breeds so you don't get something completely undesirable. Most breeders and horse owners do not want to spend vast fortunes over countless decades to create a new breed, not to mention the enormous numbers of horses that would be dumped or killed because it did not fit the program.
> 
> Even those breeding warmbloods get plenty of culls every year that will never be worth anything more than a lawn mower. Breeding type to type who are solid representations of their breeding is the best insurance you can get to predict the foal. There will always be a risk in any breeding that you don't get a foal that follows their breeding, the race bred horses that can't run, the dressage bred horses that will never be as talented as their bloodlines suggested and the list goes on and on. But there are more successful results from careful breeding then you get of duds that didn't live up to standards. But there is also a standard set by a horse's bloodline, expectations of what they were bred for. Flukes happen, an amazing horse comes from no where but is unable to reproduce themselves in the breeding shed because they are giving pieces of their lineage which isn't what they themselves took traits from.
> 
> I was grew up with a grade mare who will never win a beauty pageant, major failure in any conformation review, jarring trot that tosses you around like a rag doll, a canter that is almost sideways in movement and no one who showed her in 4-H ever got a blue ribbon unless they were the only one in the class. In fact, my sister even got a red ribbon riding her once as the only one in the class. Nothing in this mare's lineage would have suggested such an outcome to the breeding. Her sire was a very nicely bred Quarter horse with everything you would want from a stallion and producing very nice foals. Her dam was a cross, not the best conformation but not too bad, some faults but the stallion she was bred to had very nice conformation and so it didn't seem like an issue. But the mare was an Arabian cross, 3/4 Arabian on her registration and a mixing of breeds and had grade horses a few generations back. I use this example to show that making a breeding choice with mixes of breeds can turn out very poorly, no matter how sweet the mare was or how good she was for young riders, she is undesirable in the horse market because she has unpleasant gaits and looks oddly made. The chances of getting a mare like her when breeding horses true to their breeding are very low, but the chances are much higher when you are mixing in various breeds because nothing is ever completely bred out of a horse, there will always be a trace and that can pop up in their offspring.


I'm not sure where you're getting this "hundreds of years" from. Every breed in US history was done in the span of a persons life time. The creation of the TB wasn't 100 years. Don't confuse the time a breed been around and altered and modified (and corrupted into something is wasn't originally) as being the time it takes to make a breed with results consistent enough to be considered standard. A breed can be easily be developed with consistent result in less than a humans life span. It has been done in 20 years and easily done in under 40. In fact, within 40 years there can over 1,000 of that breed available with good cross stock, even if you only started with one stallion.
While it's not done at that rate much today, just over 100 years ago that was the norm. 
Simple case in point. Gaines Denmark (the gaited cross bred grade stallion, born in 1839, that is pretty much the father of the vast majority of all ASB) started covering mares in the early 1840's. By the early 1860's there were over 1,000 of what would eventually be called "Saddlebred" horses being sold. They had a set standard of characteristics that were as stabilized as any registered TB being bred.

As for showing....the show and racing industries are the greatest ban to horse breeds. They have caused wonderful breeds of horses to become mere shadows of what they were created as. All to create a winning show horse or racing horse , but not the robust animals that could work all day carrying a working load. I'd love to see more breeders (I say more, because there are a few still out there) who are more interested in bringing back that kind of horse, even if they have to create a new breed (won't be like it's the first time that's been done in North America) :lol:

(most show competitions are subjective anyway and hardly what I would call "objective" since it's often full of judges who, like many people, have prejudices.....especially against a grade horse that's likely better, but not a "breed"...thank goodness that some things aren't subjective which has allowed the various warm bloods...superior to the breeds that the came from, but basically a grade horse...to show what can be done in events were only performance counts and it's not subject to an "opinion".)


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## SunnyDraco

its lbs not miles said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting this "hundreds of years" from. Every breed in US history was done in the span of a persons life time. The creation of the TB wasn't 100 years. Don't confuse the time a breed been around and altered and modified (and corrupted into something is wasn't originally) as being the time it takes to make a breed with results consistent enough to be considered standard. A breed can be easily be developed with consistent result in less than a humans life span. It has been done in 20 years and easily done in under 40. In fact, within 40 years there can over 1,000 of that breed available with good cross stock, even if you only started with one stallion.
> While it's not done at that rate much today, just over 100 years ago that was the norm.
> Simple case in point. Gaines Denmark (the gaited cross bred grade stallion, born in 1839, that is pretty much the father of the vast majority of all ASB) started covering mares in the early 1840's. By the early 1860's there were over 1,000 of what would eventually be called "Saddlebred" horses being sold. They had a set standard of characteristics that were as stabilized as any registered TB being bred.
> 
> As for showing....the show and racing industries are the greatest ban to horse breeds. They have caused wonderful breeds of horses to become mere shadows of what they were created as. All to create a winning show horse or racing horse , but not the robust animals that could work all day carrying a working load. I'd love to see more breeders (I say more, because there are a few still out there) who are more interested in bringing back that kind of horse, even if they have to create a new breed (won't be like it's the first time that's been done in North America) :lol:
> 
> (most show competitions are subjective anyway and hardly what I would call "objective" since it's often full of judges who, like many people, have prejudices.....especially against a grade horse that's likely better, but not a "breed"...thank goodness that some things aren't subjective which has allowed the various warm bloods...superior to the breeds that the came from, but basically a grade horse...to show what can be done in events were only performance counts and it's not subject to an "opinion".)


New breeds aren't easily created or financially feasible for 99.9% of horse owners/breeders and keeping a grade cross stallion for breeding isn't the brightest idea since it isn't a start of a new breed but just making foals with a slim chance of inheriting desired traits. A cross between a gaited and non gaited horse that got the best from two breeds will not reproduce himself but be very inconsistent in the breeding shed. 

While warmbloods may essentially be "grade" they are breeding like to like among resistered warmbloods and continuing their type and the type of work they were bred to do. No one is breeding two dressage champions trying to produce a western pleasure champion but there is always a very small chance of a fluke. 

While many breeds have been altered over time from their original design, there are always the breeders that breed to preserve the original. There are classic purebred Arabians with straight profiles and look just like the Arabians from 100 years ago. While many may breed for fashion or looks within a breed, it is done outside of recognized breeds as well. Many grades are bred for color and not for function, the horse industry is run by careful and careless breeders, fewer carefully bred horses are slaughtered then the ones that are produced because babies are cute to look at and play with. 

While grades can be "healthier" than breeding stock if you are looking at genetic diseases, but once you start creating a new type and breed, you can be creating the start of new genetic diseases. All genetic diseases have an origin from a mutation in the genes and it is from creating a type and making that type stronger through line breeding which increases risk of doubling up on a genetic mutation that effects the horse in a very negative way. 

One of my sisters has dreamed of a horse breed she would love to see created but it isn't any better than those breeding for a certain look and color. Many recognized registries are also basically just a color like Paints and Appys. 

The best trait for a stallion in the breeding pen is his ability to be consistent in what he produces. A direct cross from two very different breeds cannot be consistent because he is not set in type through breeding.


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## jimmyp

Every one keeps saying "a cross between two very different breeds", or something of the like. Though I did refrence a RMHXAppy colt, he is admittedly an oops that worked out. My thought was a grade gaitedXgaited cross.

What y'all are refrencing in my mind is more of a mutt. then the conversation turns to the developement of breeds, hell the RMH essentially started in the 50's and by 1986 they had their own registry (in reality the RMH registry is as much about color as the paint registry). 

I started this conversation with gaited on gaited type breeding in mind, with gait being genetic, it would stand to reason that by using two naturally gaited horses with similar movement I would still get naturally gaited stock. 

So other than folks who chase papers, which i find to be less likely in the horse world, unless you show or compete, a type on type cross that produces, seems acceptable by most here.

Jim


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## its lbs not miles

SunnyDraco said:


> New breeds aren't easily created or financially feasible for 99.9% of horse owners/breeders and keeping a grade cross stallion for breeding isn't the brightest idea since it isn't a start of a new breed but just making foals with a slim chance of inheriting desired traits. A cross between a gaited and non gaited horse that got the best from two breeds will not reproduce himself but be very inconsistent in the breeding shed.
> 
> While warmbloods may essentially be "grade" they are breeding like to like among resistered warmbloods and continuing their type and the type of work they were bred to do. No one is breeding two dressage champions trying to produce a western pleasure champion but there is always a very small chance of a fluke.
> 
> While many breeds have been altered over time from their original design, there are always the breeders that breed to preserve the original. There are classic purebred Arabians with straight profiles and look just like the Arabians from 100 years ago. While many may breed for fashion or looks within a breed, it is done outside of recognized breeds as well. Many grades are bred for color and not for function, the horse industry is run by careful and careless breeders, fewer carefully bred horses are slaughtered then the ones that are produced because babies are cute to look at and play with.
> 
> While grades can be "healthier" than breeding stock if you are looking at genetic diseases, but once you start creating a new type and breed, you can be creating the start of new genetic diseases. All genetic diseases have an origin from a mutation in the genes and it is from creating a type and making that type stronger through line breeding which increases risk of doubling up on a genetic mutation that effects the horse in a very negative way.
> 
> One of my sisters has dreamed of a horse breed she would love to see created but it isn't any better than those breeding for a certain look and color. Many recognized registries are also basically just a color like Paints and Appys.
> 
> The best trait for a stallion in the breeding pen is his ability to be consistent in what he produces. A direct cross from two very different breeds cannot be consistent because he is not set in type through breeding.


If you get out of the US (and probably the UK) and look at Europe (where these warm bloods came from) the still have open stud books over 50 years after they started breeding these horses. And to them they are seen as breeds so basically you're dealing with breeds that still keep open stud books. (it's a US thing about being a "breed" equaling a closed stud book). That means that by US standards (if we held them to it) would always see these (as an example) Dutch or Belgium Warm bloods and Sport horses (we wouldn't see the difference, but in Europe the same crosses bred in different areas can be called different names) as just grade horses, because they can always have stallions or mares which are not of a common or even a set (in some cases) breed (i.e. they can be one of multiple breeds and meet the requirement). Much like how many of the US breeds were created using Saddlers, which were never a breed with different saddlers having different gaits (which is why when they created the "breeds" using them you find these breeds having set gaits, largely bases on what Saddlers were used in creating them).
In point of fact (and I don't know why I didn't use this to begin with) my two horses are a new breed that are becoming more popular in dressage and are being used in eventing (they can definitely jump....one of mine was clearing 44" pasture fences at 4 years old with no training and I had to make the fence higher to stop her). They got started in the 70's and started a registration in the 90's (and like the European Warm bloods....which is much the same as what these are....I believe it still is an open studbook).
True, that "most" breeders would rather take the easy way out. Just use bloodlines from registered horses that have won at something. That is why the Warm bloods came on the scene and basically "busted up the game" by beating most of the "pure bloods". The point that today the Warm bloods are the horse to beat. And, thankfully, there still are some breeders out there who are willing to not take the easy way out. Taking the time to look at using the better stock, even if it's not the same breed, and creating a better horse. But then we still have horse breeds that still allow it (although I don't often agree with some of the requirements) which is why you now (didn't use to) have Foundation QH and Appendix QH (which is 1/2 TB) and the AQHA allows the cross breeding of both to be a QH (although technically they're allowing registration of a "grade" horse and it's offspring).

And least I forget....:lol: 
The ONLY reason that stallions are given so much attention is because you can breed a LOT of mares to one stallion every year (a luxury that isn't possible with a mare). Mares however are arguably considered the more important factor with some breeders. In fact the "old" Arabian lines didn't care much about the stallions. They tracked lines through the mares. A more modern important factor for that can be seen in the American Horse, ASB and TWH where the mares gave the "foundation" stallion it's gait and provided the greatest potential for insuring it for that stallions offspring in order to create the primary breed standard. At one time a non gaited offspring would not have been considered a part of the breed (and there was no such thing as a non gaited saddler no matter who it's parents were...it had to gait). Today you can find loads of registered (bred even....the "show" must go on) non gaited members of traditionally gaited breeds.


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## jaydee

The European warmbloods are cleaning up in everything right now - even getting into the eventing game because breeders over there realized that you had to breed for a purpose and not just a pedigree.
I'm looking for an affordable horse to do some hunter or jumping classes, maybe a bit of low level dressage and finding that it would be easier and cheaper to buy a suitable horse for the job in the UK and ship it here than it is to buy one in the US because there aren't enough being bred because people don't have the courage to break away from 'tradition' and breed a 'grade horse'. I have one to look at next week that's being sold at 4x as much as I could buy it in the UK where it would only qualify as a novice horse in local shows
This is one example of how we breed a top show horse in the UK - it has no pedigree as such because its a 'mutt' as far as the US would see it and is a mix of TB, welsh pony, Arabian and goodness only knows what else - but what a superb animal
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+philanderer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX9YvEWKhZ0


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Far to many grade horses in this world. if it hasn't proven itself with some sort of fantastic show record and earnings it needs to lose the balls. Other wise your just filling the canners trailer.


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## jimmyp

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Far to many grade horses in this world. if it hasn't proven itself with some sort of fantastic show record and earnings it needs to lose the balls. Other wise your just filling the canners trailer.



So your opinion is that the only place a horse can prove itself is in the arena, winning money, and ribbons????? That's cute......

I'll put some of my grade stock in the field chasing bird dogs over a 3-5 day trial scouting, handling and spectating over MANY of the show horses I see folks drag out to a weekend trial. Same on the trail, and the same for our non papered stock horses working cattle.

Jim


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## dbarabians

Only those that show are concerned about a show record.
The vast majority of horses and owners will never see the in side of a show arena.
I am not impressed by any horses show record. What they can produce and how consistently is important to me as a breeder. Shalom


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## blue eyed pony

The only time a horse's show record matters to me is if it has extensively competed in showjumping.

Jump has been shown to be a relatively heritable trait, and therefore, for my purposes, my ideal horse is one that has top showjumpers on both sides of its bloodlines.

My filly isn't bred for jumping, and due to an issue the vet believes to be genetic won't be bred from. I do want to breed my own foal eventually and when the time comes I will either purchase or lease a broodmare that has proven herself as a showjumping horse and breed her to a stallion who has proven himself as a showjumping horse. Chances are I would end up with a showjumping horse.

I personally couldn't care less about registration, however because the horses I would be looking at breeding would be Thoroughbred and Warmblood in breeding, the foal would, as a result, be fully eligible for at least warmblood sporthorse registration.


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## BlueSpark

> Other wise your just filling the canners trailer.


 no, back yard breeders with mediocre horses that they breed year after year are filling the canners trailer. And guess what? Around here they are all registered stock horses.

a good horse is a good horse. period. I could throw out the papers on all my horses and I would never want for buyers. My horses are sound, well built, good minded and athletic. They are just the type of horses that 90% of buyers out there are looking for.

there will always, always, always be a market for horses that are good at what they do. the poor and mediocre ones may go into a can, but there are always people looking for a good horse.

If all grades are destined for the canner, why did my cousins get an offer for their grade colt of thousands of dollars at 2 weeks old, during a recession? Why did they get offered several thousand for their grade driving team? Why did I sell my first grade mare as green broke for a high sum to a jumping barn at 3 years old? and why have I noticed a big trend with the vast majority of recreational riders who could not care less if they have a registered horse or not?


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## jaydee

There are some awful looking useless quarter horses in the sales pens that have long pedigrees and are well related to prize winners
The majority of the HIS approved stallions (Hunter Improvement Society that became the Sort Horse of Great Britain) were racehorses that were judged to have the right conformation and attitude to produce hunters, show horses, eventer and showjumpers, usually when bred to native breeds or heavier breeds and it worked and still does work


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

jimmyp said:


> So your opinion is that the only place a horse can prove itself is in the arena, winning money, and ribbons????? That's cute......
> 
> I'll put some of my grade stock in the field chasing bird dogs over a 3-5 day trial scouting, handling and spectating over MANY of the show horses I see folks drag out to a weekend trial. Same on the trail, and the same for our non papered stock horses working cattle.
> 
> Jim


 

Because there are a crap ton of those you mentioned on the ground already. So why add tot his mess of an over population problem we are dealing with now..Like I said nothing more than canner fillers.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

BlueSpark said:


> no, back yard breeders with mediocre horses that they breed year after year are filling the canners trailer. And guess what? Around here they are all registered stock horses.
> 
> a good horse is a good horse. period. I could throw out the papers on all my horses and I would never want for buyers. My horses are sound, well built, good minded and athletic. They are just the type of horses that 90% of buyers out there are looking for.
> 
> there will always, always, always be a market for horses that are good at what they do. the poor and mediocre ones may go into a can, but there are always people looking for a good horse.
> 
> If all grades are destined for the canner, why did my cousins get an offer for their grade colt of thousands of dollars at 2 weeks old, during a recession? Why did they get offered several thousand for their grade driving team? Why did I sell my first grade mare as green broke for a high sum to a jumping barn at 3 years old? and why have I noticed a big trend with the vast majority of recreational riders who could not care less if they have a registered horse or not?


 
A good horse is a good horse but that's not enough reason to breed him.


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## jimmyp

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Because there are a crap ton of those you mentioned on the ground already. So why add tot his mess of an over population problem we are dealing with now..Like I said nothing more than canner fillers.


Oddly enough I can go to the sale barn this weekend and see doc oleena, frenchmans guy and many other running QH pedigree being bought up by the killer and ALL of the gaited stock will sell papered or not.......

Jim


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## BlueSpark

> A good horse is a good horse but that's not enough reason to breed him.


 a piece of paper is not a reason to breed either. If you took registration out of the picture, Most breeders are looking to produce good horses. Very few want the next world champion, they want a well built, sound, sane, pretty horse that's good at it job, whatever that job may be. People want good ranch horses, a good trail horse, a good 4h horse. they don't want a horse with the potential to be the next world champion.


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## squirrelfood

jimmyp said:


> Oddly enough I can go to the sale barn this weekend and see doc oleena, frenchmans guy and many other running QH pedigree being bought up by the killer and ALL of the gaited stock will sell papered or not.......
> 
> Jim


That is in YOUR neighborhood, perhaps. Here, they pay top dollar for anything that is good at roping, cutting and reining. Gaited is for the crazy mule riders/breeders.


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## jaydee

We went to a sale here recently and the 'ranch' horses were barely making meat money - it is all relative to where you live - but even then people are more likely to spend money on a proven horse that can do the job than on one that has a some fancy pedigree that really means nothing - unless its looks match the pedigree and they want a showring horse


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Gaited horses in my state are a dime a dozen. I never see anything with great papers going thru the sale barns here its all grade I live in Kentucky.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

If I don't see talent in the cutting pen they aren't worthy of breeding on my farm. Do I own a grade yes I do a gelding and I wont sell him for any amount, but doesn't make him worthy of breeding so he is a gelding.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

BlueSpark said:


> a piece of paper is not a reason to breed either. If you took registration out of the picture, Most breeders are looking to produce good horses. Very few want the next world champion, they want a well built, sound, sane, pretty horse that's good at it job, whatever that job may be. People want good ranch horses, a good trail horse, a good 4h horse. they don't want a horse with the potential to be the next world champion.


 

Not true a good breeder is looking to produce a better horse. Those types you suggested have no business in the breeding game. What they want is already on the ground in spades.


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## squirrelfood

jaydee said:


> We went to a sale here recently and the 'ranch' horses were barely making meat money - it is all relative to where you live - but even then people are more likely to spend money on a proven horse that can do the job than on one that has a some fancy pedigree that really means nothing - unless its looks match the pedigree and they want a showring horse



Name me 2 good reasons you think a horse can't have a good pedigree AND be well proven, and I'll laugh you outta town. I OWN such horses. I like my cutting pen, but don't have much time for the showring.


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## wakiya

I see grade and registered horses sold for meat. Often broke - some to ride and drive. Sometimes you do everything you can to give that horse an advantage, marketability, etc. and it doesn't matter anyway. When you register a horse it adds value in theory. I still see more grades go for meat than registered horses. But then again the "grade" horses may have just lost their papers.


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## dbarabians

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Not true a good breeder is looking to produce a better horse. Those types you suggested have no business in the breeding game. What they want is already on the ground in spades.


No this is an ignorant statement. I know lots of horse owners that breed and none of them are looking to produce the next world champion. 
I breed for good conformation, endurance, good arabian type and temperament. I do not breed 10,000-30,0000$ prospects. Too many end up not meeting your breeding goals and those culls wind up at the auctions.
I have owned horses for over 40 years and bred my own for nearly 30. I would not give you one dime for horse that is a world champion western pleasure horse or halter horse of any breed.
My horses are well bred, I choose the lines that I breed not because of their show ring wins but their ability to pass on the traits I like.
I have no problem finding buyers for any horse that I have raised or rescued once it was well trained. 
Registration papers do not make a horse great. What it can do for its owner is what sets its value. Shalom


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## jimmyp

squirrelfood said:


> Name me 2 good reasons you think a horse can't have a good pedigree AND be well proven, and I'll laugh you outta town. I OWN such horses. I like my cutting pen, but don't have much time for the showring.


I dont think anyone is saying that you can not have both and I think most would agree that one SHOULD be a pre curser to the other. However that is not always so. Horses are as bad a dogs. there are too many people who are of the opinion, that papers on papers are going to be something special, and they ignore the basics of conformation.

Hell of the 16 horses on our place 12 of them are registered, of those 12 7 are appy's and of those 7, ZERO are appy by anything more than color. most are 3/4 or more QH, and there is a healthy smattering of TB in there as well..... How in the hell are these "registered" horses any better than grade? just cause I know what they came from? hell I can go back 10 gen on both the RMH and Appy my oops colt are out of.

Jim


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## squirrelfood

But you CANNOT give even a "best guess" on how those mixed genes will turn out depending on the mare bred to. You can only hope.


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## jaydee

squirrelfood said:


> Name me 2 good reasons you think a horse can't have a good pedigree AND be well proven, and I'll laugh you outta town. I OWN such horses. I like my cutting pen, but don't have much time for the showring.


That isn't what I said so you can spare yourself the trouble of laughing me out of town
There is no reason why a horse can't have a good pedigree and be a good working horse - but a good pedigree won't always guarantee a good working horse or a good competition horse and anyone that's ever bred horses could tell you that
Why are people fixated in making this discussion about ranch horses anyway? There's more to horse breeding than producing ranch horses and the big money in this country is in competition horses whether at world level or local level and there's a shortage of good affordable horses and ponies because they aren't being bred - which is why people are still importing them from Europe
The reason they aren't being bred is because there's this stigma about 'Grade horses' and yet the top horses in world competition are mostly warmbloods which are 'grade horses' in US eyes


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

dbarabians said:


> No this is an ignorant statement. I know lots of horse owners that breed and none of them are looking to produce the next world champion.
> I breed for good conformation, endurance, good arabian type and temperament. I do not breed 10,000-30,0000$ prospects. Too many end up not meeting your breeding goals and those culls wind up at the auctions.
> I have owned horses for over 40 years and bred my own for nearly 30. I would not give you one dime for horse that is a world champion western pleasure horse or halter horse of any breed.
> My horses are well bred, I choose the lines that I breed not because of their show ring wins but their ability to pass on the traits I like.
> I have no problem finding buyers for any horse that I have raised or rescued once it was well trained.
> Registration papers do not make a horse great. What it can do for its owner is what sets its value. Shalom


 
LOL ignorant...not hardly but hey thanks for the personal attack seems to be how folks who have no true argument like to take things. Again I do not do nor support the halter industry nor the WP industry, the Arabian world has added a lot to the halter world itself.


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## squirrelfood

jaydee said:


> That isn't what I said so you can spare yourself the trouble of laughing me out of town
> There is no reason why a horse can't have a good pedigree and be a good working horse - but a good pedigree won't always guarantee a good working horse or a good competition horse and anyone that's ever bred horses could tell you that
> Why are people fixated in making this discussion about ranch horses anyway? There's more to horse breeding than producing ranch horses and the big money in this country is in competition horses whether at world level or local level and there's a shortage of good affordable horses and ponies because they aren't being bred - which is why people are still importing them from Europe
> The reason they aren't being bred is because there's this stigma about 'Grade horses' and yet the top horses in world competition are mostly warmbloods which are 'grade horses' in US eyes


And NOT having papers certainly won't make it better. Your "competition" horse would be worth about $300 in my neighborhood. It isn't ABOUT ranch horses any more than it is about "competition" horses, as you would have it. If there were enough money in it SOMEBODY would BE breeding the heck out of it.


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## its lbs not miles

jaydee said:


> The European warmbloods are cleaning up in everything right now - even getting into the eventing game because breeders over there realized that you had to breed for a purpose and not just a pedigree.
> I'm looking for an affordable horse to do some hunter or jumping classes, maybe a bit of low level dressage and finding that it would be easier and cheaper to buy a suitable horse for the job in the UK and ship it here than it is to buy one in the US because there aren't enough being bred because people don't have the courage to break away from 'tradition' and breed a 'grade horse'. I have one to look at next week that's being sold at 4x as much as I could buy it in the UK where it would only qualify as a novice horse in local shows
> This is one example of how we breed a top show horse in the UK - it has no pedigree as such because its a 'mutt' as far as the US would see it and is a mix of TB, welsh pony, Arabian and goodness only knows what else - but what a superb animal
> http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+philanderer
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX9YvEWKhZ0


It's just awful to have these mixed up horses beating the snot out of the "blue bloods" :lol: Don't they understand that being from a long standing, historically tracked, like-to-like, breeding program is required for making consistently good horses? :rofl:
The Europeans have started doing what we use to do and are producing better horses while so many in the US have gotten stuck in the "registration", "pure breed" rut.
Even their Warm Blood "breeds" which have tracked breeding have stud books (and a book for mares) that are open to 3 or more breeds. They of course breed Warm Bloods to each other, but still use lighter riding breeds crossed with the heavier working breeds and even breed those into existing Warm bloods. Didn't take some of the Europeans long to figure out that this was a winning combination (the wins vs lose record at events and competition makes that clear). Not that there aren't plenty "stuck in a rut" people in Europe too. Just plenty who are not.
You'll find it's pretty expensive to buy and ship one from the UK. There are a number of European Warm Blood breeds already over here and there are even some made in the US. The Georgian Grande is that style of horse. While there are several draft breeds that are acceptable for crossing with a ASB to qualify, I'm seeing the Friesian/ASB cross more often. Which is just a baroque riding horse (i.e. Friesian, Lipizzan, etc...) crossed with a lighter riding horse (although the ASB wasn't always as light a riding horse if you go back 150 years).
There are plenty of good "warm blood" horses available in the US if you look enough :lol:. I found mine with no problem, but didn't know that the one was going to take to jumping anything that wasn't close to 4' high....that had to stop, (although it might have been great for you). And you can find them in a variety of colors, including paint. :lol: (almost bought my older mare's younger brother, who was a gorgeous paint with a tricolored tail, but opted for her cousin after some deliberation...it was a close choice between them though)


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## its lbs not miles

jaydee said:


> That isn't what I said so you can spare yourself the trouble of laughing me out of town
> There is no reason why a horse can't have a good pedigree and be a good working horse - but a good pedigree won't always guarantee a good working horse or a good competition horse and anyone that's ever bred horses could tell you that
> Why are people fixated in making this discussion about ranch horses anyway? There's more to horse breeding than producing ranch horses and the big money in this country is in competition horses whether at world level or local level and there's a shortage of good affordable horses and ponies because they aren't being bred - which is why people are still importing them from Europe
> The reason they aren't being bred is because there's this stigma about 'Grade horses' and yet the top horses in world competition are mostly warmbloods which are 'grade horses' in US eyes


We NEVER owned a registered ranch horse. Some unregistered (what today they'd call "foundation") QH and crosses, but nothing registered. Best working horses you could want and while the best one was a pure blood, but unregistrable, QH mare (she was white and this was before DNA testing so any horse with too much white...she was ALL white, not grey, white, with blue eyes...couldn't possibly be a QH no matter if "mommy and daddy" were registered....but she was cheap :lol, the next 4 best were just grade horses. With the exception of that one mare the grade horses did pretty much everything better, except gait :lol:. None of them could match the pleasure ride of our registered (he came that way) TWH stallion (who wasn't the best choice for cattle, but oh what great ride).


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## jaydee

It is possible to get lucky here and but a good warmblood or sporthorse for a sensible price but because there still aren't enough being bred they mostly seem to cost a lot more than in the UK where we've been breeding for competition for years
This is one example of the huge difference you can see. This US 15.2 according to their website is priced at above $30K 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC7USWkOho4
Yet this UK horse which was produced by a top trainer, is competing at what we call affiliated level in jumping and has won its first One Day Event at affiliated level I could buy for just over $6K. Unfortunately its a mare so would cost me quarantine costs on top of shipping and all the vet examinations it would need to clear it for bringing here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVG-y3UT7Eg

I guess I'll just have to keep on looking!!!

PLEASE NOTE - THESE VIDEOS HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED FOR CRITIQUE


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## its lbs not miles

jaydee said:


> It is possible to get lucky here and but a good warmblood or sporthorse for a sensible price but because there still aren't enough being bred they mostly seem to cost a lot more than in the UK where we've been breeding for competition for years
> This is one example of the huge difference you can see. This US 15.2 according to their website is priced at above $30K
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC7USWkOho4
> Yet this UK horse which was produced by a top trainer, is competing at what we call affiliated level in jumping and has won its first One Day Event at affiliated level I could buy for just over $6K. Unfortunately its a mare so would cost me quarantine costs on top of shipping and all the vet examinations it would need to clear it for bringing here
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVG-y3UT7Eg
> 
> I guess I'll just have to keep on looking!!!
> 
> PLEASE NOTE - THESE VIDEOS HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED FOR CRITIQUE


Try looking for Georgian Grande in your area. They aren't massively common, but not terribly hard to find. Might be hard to find many trained ones that the owners are willing to part with though :lol:. Young, untrained ones are easier to locate.
This is my oldest mares older half brother (a few years older) that I pulled off the internet. Of course he's obviously a crappy grade horse (Friesian stallion, Saddlebred mare), but it would cost few dollars to get him today :lol:. (Depending on his age when sold he probably went for between $5,000 - $8,000 as a colt from the breeder). Always meant to ask if they trimmed his feathering off if he just didn't get a lot of it like my mare did.

Just felt like posting this to show you the GG and to let the anti breeding grade crowd see what comes form good cross breeding, even in the US. The breeding that lead to this breed started in the 1970's and reached a consistent standard by the 1990's.

They can jump too, but I'll have to look up photos for that (or you can :lol










(might want to turn the volume off for the video if you don't want to hear the music)


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## jaydee

That's a stunning looking horse - I never heard of that cross before. I rode an Arabian x saddlebred mare one winter but I was put off buying her because she's never been ridden out of an arena and I needed a horse that would go straight out on the trails no fuss as well as show in a ring. I still regret not taking the chance because I liked her a lot


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## ZaneyZanne123

its lbs not miles said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting this "hundreds of years" from. Every breed in US history was done in the span of a persons life time. The creation of the TB wasn't 100 years. Don't confuse the time a breed been around and altered and modified (and corrupted into something is wasn't originally) as being the time it takes to make a breed with results consistent enough to be considered standard. A breed can be easily be developed with consistent result in less than a humans life span. It has been done in 20 years and easily done in under 40. In fact, within 40 years there can over 1,000 of that breed available with good cross stock, even if you only started with one stallion.
> While it's not done at that rate much today, just over 100 years ago that was the norm.
> Simple case in point. Gaines Denmark (the gaited cross bred grade stallion, born in 1839, that is pretty much the father of the vast majority of all ASB) started covering mares in the early 1840's. By the early 1860's there were over 1,000 of what would eventually be called "Saddlebred" horses being sold. They had a set standard of characteristics that were as stabilized as any registered TB being bred.
> 
> *As for showing....the show and racing industries are the greatest ban to horse breeds. They have caused wonderful breeds of horses to become mere shadows of what they were created as. All to create a winning show horse or racing horse , but not the robust animals that could work all day carrying a working load. I'd love to see more breeders (I say more, because there are a few still out there) who are more interested in bringing back that kind of horse,* even if they have to create a new breed (won't be like it's the first time that's been done in North America) :lol:
> 
> (most show competitions are subjective anyway and hardly what I would call "objective" since it's often full of judges who, like many people, have prejudices.....especially against a grade horse that's likely better, but not a "breed"...thank goodness that some things aren't subjective which has allowed the various warm bloods...superior to the breeds that the came from, but basically a grade horse...to show what can be done in events were only performance counts and it's not subject to an "opinion".)


 
I have to agree with that.


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## danicelia24

So what is everyones thoughts on mustang crosses out of curiosity and mustang x stallions?? Some of you know I've bred my mustang mare to a QH stallion but I really don't plan on keeping the foal a stallion if it comes out a colt. Just Curious....


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## smrobs

I'm only okay with grade stallions if both sides of the lineage are known quantities. With a mustang, the genes aren't known at all and there may ore may not carry some funky conformational or temperamental issues that the horse themselves doesn't express.

For that reason, I don't believe in breeding _anything_ that's not a known quantity, mares or stallions.


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## Atomicodyssey

I have not read all of the responses, but for my purposes I would say no to a grade stallion and this is why.

The horse market is already so over saturated. Papers do not make a horse as many are still inferior with documented lineage but the fact of the matter is when you take on the responsibility of bringing a horses life into reality, it is up to you to make sure that horse has the best opportunity to finding a life long home and not ending up at the meat pen. Registration does add value to a horse and to many people this matters, especially those that do breed shows. You want your horse to be desirable. That being said, many nice papered horses still end up to an unfortunate demise. In general, grade or registered, people need to be more selective with breeding. 

I have nothing against grade horses, out of the five horses I've owned only one was registered. However I look at the merit of the horse and do not breed or care about breed specific shows.


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## its lbs not miles

squirrelfood said:


> Agreed, ZZ. But breeding grade horses is even MORE of a crapshoot than breeding registered where you can at least KNOW if there is any crappy junk in the pedigree. And yes, there are a lot of registered junk; even MORE good registered stuff. Just like there are a LOT of junk grade horses but not so many really good ones. Percentages tell, whether you like it or not.


Obviously I haven't read all of these post.

That is big load of crap. First of all, all breeds came from unregistered horses.
Gaines Denmark, was a gaited stallion out of an unregistered, non "breed" mare crossed with a TB stallion (Denmark), so he was an unregistered grade horse, and then he was bred to more non breed mares (all of the mares were saddlers, but saddlers are not a "breed" and only had their natural gait as the defining trait which is what made them "saddlers"). So that's a grade stallion out of a registered horse and a non breed, being bred to more non breed mares to create, what for a time, was one of the most in demand horse "breeds" in the US. (Oh, that just can't be :lol
As for being able to trace their pedigree, being a pure breed means nothing there too. I can trace both of my mare's bloodlines back 6 generations on both sides (that's how I know they're 1st cousins on "mommy's" side and 2nd cousins on "daddy's" side). They're still just grade horses to many in the US (although they are registered as a breed and able to be registered as Friesian Sporthorse too) although in Europe they would be considered a "breed" in many places. They are in the US in some places, but they still meet the criteria for a grade horse (Friesian Stallion/Saddlebred Mare).
In Europe what many in the US and UK call a grade horse is actually considered a breed in a very large part of their equine community (e.g. Belgium Warm Blood is grade according to some, but a breed in Belgium...a very successful one which still has an open studbook....oh parish the thought :lol:....can't be "breed" with an open studbook... according to some :lol, however even many in the US are growing up and realizing (after it's slapped them in the face enough) these "grade" horses, with miss matched bloodlines are exactly what made the great horses throughout history and still making them today. I challenge you to find one horse breed that isn't the product of creating "grade" horses. Even the Arabian is the product of selective breeding with various horses. It's biggest claim to fame is that it's one of the oldest "breeds" to have survived.
Being able to say I know how my horses Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great granddaddy (and grandmother) just means someone kept all those records. As I already pointed out, you don't have to go back far with Secretariat's bloodline to find horses that never won a race (go back a little farther and your find more that didn't). So why on earth breed race horses out of these bloodlines? Because a good horse is a good horse. I couldn't even register my first mare even though she was a pure blood QH and yet she produced nothing but good horses when we bred her.

As for people wanting "grade" horses. I've never had a problem selling a grade horse (and I've only sold one registered one, but I've only owned 3 that were registered). People want a good horse. When I finally concluded that I needed to let my first mare go it took one phone call (people had been wanting to part her from me for a decade+). They didn't even ask my father what I wanted for her (I couldn't do it myself), just "was I serious" and when could they come get her. And this was a horse that was worse than grade. A pure blood, out of registered stock, that substandard (according to the AQHA in 1971) wasn't acceptable within the breed. That's got to be worse than being grade. (it wasn't until much later, with the advent of DNA testing the AQHA had to back down and admit that there is such a thing as a white QH :lol:, so now they just say it's "undesirable"....so what...a great horse was still a great horse). So Paint owners, be glad that the AQHA had their head up their a_ _ or the APHA would not have been created in the 60's by people with paint QH that couldn't be registered.

You can keep your "tracked" pure breed bloodlines (and all the unwanted horses that come from them). I've seen more pure breeds in rescue than I have grade horses. And although my two aren't gaited (mores the pity) I'd take a good, gaited grade horse that I have no more information about than seeing the stallion and mare it came out of then all these non gaited TWH and ASB, etc... that can be traced to multiple grand champions (and so will a LOT of other people).


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## squirrelfood

One person's "crap" is another person's treasure. You may load all you want.:smile:


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## its lbs not miles

squirrelfood said:


> One person's "crap" is another person's treasure. You may load all you want.:smile:


True :lol:. And the belief that pureblood breeding produce a greater % of better horse is a pretty heavy load of crap (I hope you have an obscene amount of acreage to fertilize :lol. It does certainly produce a greater % of the horses that are dumped on the market, unwanted by those who bred them or the industry that they were bred for. Those numbers do speak for themselves.
You can have all the registered stock that's wasting away waiting for someone to rescue them (if you took the registered and I took the grade my hay bill would be a lot smaller than yours). I see more registered horses waiting and I also see people PAYING for non registered horses vs taking a free registered animal (a good horse is a good horse and I see more good grade than registered). It's not that the registered horses aren't any good (most were professionally bred) and I do know people who have taken some of them, but they just don't measure up to the grades that are available. A good grade horse will sell when you can't give a registered one away, because it's not quite as good. It's not a bad horse...after all, it's registration shows that it has the blood of champions flowing in it's veins....just isn't quite as good a horse as the cross breed in the next pasture. So it's waiting for you to come and over look all those grade horses who's parents are :shock: from different breeds and see that he's the true gem (he's got the registered blood to prove it) and take him home.
I'll be happy for you and thrilled for the horse. Just because he didn't measure up to the grade horses that were bred from two good horses of separate breeds that each had the traits desired, it's not his fault. He was bred because he had a proven blood line. Just because he didn't become a champion and doesn't have as good a trait as these grade horses it's not his fault. The other horses had an unfair advantage. They came from parents that oozed desired traits. All his family had was the tracked bloodline that did manage to produce a champion (maybe more). If his parents had "oozed" these traits he'd have shown this upstart grade horses. But alas, all he has was a proven bloodline (along with 100,000 other horses with the same or similar bloodline) and it wasn't enough to win out over some of the other "proven bloodline" horses. So now he, and 90,000 of his peers are looking for a home (that hopefully someone who cares about the bloodline will give them).


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## wakiya

What many people are trying to say can be summarized with this comparison:

Hybrids have unstable genetics. When you look at crossbred dogs for example, First generation crosses have certain traits consistently. Non-shedding, hypoallergenic, or woof dog hybrids when crossed to themselves or to another breed will not pass on the cross they will pass one breed or another you can get a "hybrid" that is all dog or one 
that is all wolf. You have no control because their is no consistent stabilized gene pool. 

Crossing a Paso fino onto a rocky mtn because they share bloodlines would produce a slightly more stable hybrid but when that is crossed on something different that's when things get complicated. And I'm just talking about simple Mendelian genetics not even accounting for environmental factors and epigenetics.

It is less about "pure blood" which is a farce in in self, but more about type to type. You won't get consistency crossing a draft to an Arabian but you can cross Arabians on related breeds and keep type. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles

wakiya said:


> What many people are trying to say can be summarized with this comparison:
> 
> Hybrids have unstable genetics. When you look at crossbred dogs for example, First generation crosses have certain traits consistently. Non-shedding, hypoallergenic, or woof dog hybrids when crossed to themselves or to another breed will not pass on the cross they will pass one breed or another you can get a "hybrid" that is all dog or one
> that is all wolf. You have no control because their is no consistent stabilized gene pool.
> 
> Crossing a Paso fino onto a rocky mtn because they share bloodlines would produce a slightly more stable hybrid but when that is crossed on something different that's when things get complicated. And I'm just talking about simple Mendelian genetics not even accounting for environmental factors and epigenetics.
> 
> It is less about "pure blood" which is a farce in in self, but more about type to type. You won't get consistency crossing a draft to an Arabian but you can cross Arabians on related breeds and keep type.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, please.

First of all. Domestic horses are all the same specie so "cross breeding" is not creating a hybrid. You get just as stable an outcome breeding heavy with light as you do with any other combination (take a look at the Warm Blood breeds). That's like saying that breeding between a person from Scandinavia and a person from the South of Spain produces a hybrid. Same species in = same species out.

Horse and donkey cross breeding that produces a hybrid (different specie with different number of chromosomes...horses have a couple more than donkeys....which is why it's very rare, but not impossible, to have a fertile offspring with that hybrid...it's rare to get the right arrangement with the miss match number of chromosomes).

People who think that all this pure blood or even breeding similar horses is how to produce the best horses really need to sit down and do some serious studying of horse breeding over the past 2,000+ years. Easier yet, just look at over the past 500 years. No, just make it the last 300 years and you don't even have to look beyond North America :lol: (although there was lot done in other places before then).

Look at the history of all the "pure blood" horses that came and went. Even the Arabian went through cross breeding in order to create a horse that could survive and be successful in place that was less then hospitable for horses (yes, the old Arab breeders used different horses to create and improve on their horses in creating what we know as the Arabian horse).

And just an FYI. The RMH was created without any Paso fino blood. If there is any today it was added (oh no, not mixing different kinds of horse again) much later after the breed was already established. It came from the cross breeding of a gaited stallion of unknown breed or history Oh my gosh, how could they allow that) except an oral history which is in truth always questionable (like much of the Arabians history where even their breeding records were oral) with a unique color gene, to local gaited horses in the Appalachians. Basically created a color based saddler and one of the few breeds that appears to have kept the strong gaiting trait as well, as it appears, the overall sturdiness of the horse although I've only seen a few and may have just been lucky (so kudos to the breeders for that).

Back to the crossing heavy with light. That's been done (and done, and done, and done) throughout history and with incredible success. In fact it's been every bit as successful as breeding light to light and heavy to heavy (except that the crosses produced superior horses for the task desired). e.g. Many of the most successful Baroque breeds of horse came from this type of cross breeding. Of course today they are old "pure breeds", but they didn't start out that way. They came from breeding a heavier horse to a light horse (often to Arabians or another light breed that also had some Arabian in it's roots, but not always).


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## wakiya

I think you entirely missed my point and I was using the term "hybrid" as it's something people who aren't familiar with genetics can understand. Next time I'll just use F1, F2 generations. Horses had several domestications resulting in different "types" of horses that people crossed and crossed back on each other enough times to create "breeds." Andalusians from spanish horses crossed to warmbloods adding in some other breeds when genetic diversity was threatened (though in some cases they sacrificed type). I'm not saying there is such thing as a "pure breed." There is not. "breed" is a concept invented by man. When you cross like to like you get like. When you cross two very different things you can get a good outcome or you can get this:










With a truly "grade" horse (not a crossbred with recorded lineage) you have no idea what you're passing on, including genetic problems. Epigenetics influence future generations in ways we're only beginning to understand. And though in your area people love grades and hate registered horses it's not like that in most of the world. In the 5 states I've lived in registered horses go for more money than grades, both when poorly conformed/ill mannered go for meat.


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## squirrelfood

Or this

View attachment 445242


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## jaydee

It stands to reason that a badly thought out cross or an accidental mating has the chance of producing a bad result - but that doesn't mean all cross breeding is bad. 
Yes when you breed an arab to an arab you have a general idea what you'll get - assuming of course that both arabs are good quality because despite having one of the longest pedigrees of all horses there are some truly awful Arabians out there and even some of the best ones are useless for anything other than being rail horses
However when you cross an arab to a TB you get one of the most versatile breeds there is - the Anglo Arab, and the Trakhener owes a lot of its bloodline to the arab, as do all the modern warmblood breeds, the TB traces back to 2 Arabians (and a Turkish horse). All British show ponies have a lot of Arabian blood in them and the best quality show and traditional cobs over there have some Arabian blood to give them a smaller more refined head
The welsh x TB and the Irish Draft x TB and the Connemara x TB produced and still do produce some great jumping horses and hunters. The Appendix horses are still holding their own in hunter classes in the US
This years UK Badminton horse trials winner is a Grade mare in US eyes but her value and that of her offspring is going to be so much more than some pedigree Quarter horse that didn't turn out 'quite right'.
Pedigree horses are what you might need if you show in breeding classes, but you don't need a pedigree to have a good trail or work horse and most of the top competition horses in the world today are Grade horses - although thanks to the various Sport horse and new warmblood registries they mostly do have a record of parentage


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## jaydee

These 3 are all Grade horses/ponies but all worth more than a mediocre pedigree. Stroller was a TB X Connemara and barely 14.2 yet competed successfully in the Olympics . There are many more like them
Do not confuse people who do good cross breeding with the sort of people who don't know what they're doing


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## Foxhunter

Goodness majority of the top horses a few years ago were grade horses, often breeding unknown. 

In the past Eventing had two lots of roads and tracks, and a steeplechase course to do before the cross country. (Originally there was a sprint *after *after the cc too!)
This took a great deal of fitness and stamina so, most event horses were TBs with a bit of pony blood to them. 

The Irish bred some of the best horses in the world for competition whether eventing or show jumping and majority of those horses were bred by backyard breeders, farmers who Fox Hunted on a bold brave horse that, if it was a mare was sent to a good local stallion, the result was certainly a grade horse yet if it had the boldness and jumping ability it could be sold for a lot of money.

These grade horses could vary greatly, some were just good plods with not so good conformation. Others were top class. 

Warm bloods are not a breed, they are a cross breed. Many of the Hanoverians were crossed to TBs, bought in the UK, inspected and re registered under another name at a Hanoverian. This changed the stamp of horse.











The old stamp had very shallow quarters compared to the horse of today.


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## BlueSpark

I just had a conversation with a trainer at a high end hunter jumper barn, and I found it very interesting that they could not care less about registration, they only cared about the horse. These people were pulling a trailer that was likely worth as much as my house, and riding horses worth 10x as much as my car, they can afford horses with amazing pedigrees, but that's not at the top of their priority list.

Its kind of funny that I find myself defending grades when every horse I own currently is registered. I see the value(for predicting suitability for a discipline, the results of a breeding, for people who love to research their horses history, breed shows, resale etc) of papers in certain circumstances, but when it all comes down to it, its about the result. how well can the horse perform, and what can it produce? If you are deciding between two stallions, equally good minded, talented, sound and athletic, one having papers and the other not, of course you are going to pick the registered one.

would I disregard a stallion that is exactly what I want because he's grade? nope.


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## squirrelfood

> The old stamp had very shallow quarters compared to the horse of today.


Just about impossible to prove that's true using old DRAWINGS. Its only as good as the artist, which in some cases, isn't so good.


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## its lbs not miles

Foxhunter said:


> Warm bloods are not a breed, they are a cross breed. Many of the Hanoverians were crossed to TBs, bought in the UK, inspected and re registered under another name at a Hanoverian. This changed the stamp of horse.


PLEASE keep that attitude to yourself if you visit parts of Europe. i.e. don't go to Belgium and tell them that the Belgium Warmblood (or Sporthorse...depending on where in Belgium you are) is not a breed. They will explain otherwise to you. You see, it's US and UK thing about a "breed" having to have "closed" studbook. Which is why do many of our "breeds" have ended up being messed up. Oh, and don't tell that to the AQHA either, since they allow for the registration and breeding of QH X TB (an Appendix QH) with foundation QH and still register them as QH. So I guess the QH is not a "breed" either. Can't really allow one breed to keep adding different breed blood and still be called a breed if you don't allow it for all the other breeds that do it.

So we can strike the QH off the list of breeds :lol:, it's not just another Warm Blood that allows hot blood to be added. (of course technically its always been warm blood as are most of the horse breeds developed in North America.....since they were neither hot nor cold).


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## its lbs not miles

wakiya said:


> I think you entirely missed my point and I was using the term "hybrid" as it's something people who aren't familiar with genetics can understand. Next time I'll just use F1, F2 generations. Horses had several domestications resulting in different "types" of horses that people crossed and crossed back on each other enough times to create "breeds." Andalusians from spanish horses crossed to warmbloods adding in some other breeds when genetic diversity was threatened (though in some cases they sacrificed type). I'm not saying there is such thing as a "pure breed." There is not. "breed" is a concept invented by man. When you cross like to like you get like. When you cross two very different things you can get a good outcome or you can get this:
> 
> With a truly "grade" horse (not a crossbred with recorded lineage) you have no idea what you're passing on, including genetic problems. Epigenetics influence future generations in ways we're only beginning to understand. And though in your area people love grades and hate registered horses it's not like that in most of the world. In the 5 states I've lived in registered horses go for more money than grades, both when poorly conformed/ill mannered go for meat.


lol: you know I retired, so I don't get paid for this anymore)

Most people (even those not familiar with the genetics of species) understand that a mule or hinny is a hybrid. So saying that breeding two horses of different breeds = hybrid is obscenely off the mark whether explaining for those who do and don't know about cross vs same specie breeding. The uneducated my start thinking the a cross bred horse is some sort of mule (not that there's anything wrong with mules....they're smarter than horses and more durable).

If you want to pick the Andalucian for an example that's fine. It's good example of one of the classical baroque riding horses (along with the Friesian, Lipizzaner, etc.....). Developed from various crossing of the heavier horses that originally populated Europe with other, generally lighter, breeds. Later it became a breed used to the purpose of altering other breeds where many if it's unique traits were desired. A common theme with all horse breeding since the time man first started developing and making improvements on the horse. Suddenly in within the past 100 years some people have gone nuts and wanted to put a stop to it :lol:. Thankfully plenty of others still carry on the tradition that is as old as the history of man selectively breeding horses. Once again, breeding unlike horse to produce something better. We've been doing it horses for 5,000 years. As long as we can make a better one (for whatever purpose we had in mind) we'll keep on doing it, because you get things like the Georgian Grande who's picture I posted earlier (and the Andalusian, the Lipizzaner, the Dutch Warm Blood, etc, etc, etc,......). All the product of breeding horses that were different to get something better.

Technically (if we really want to be accurate and not go with what is often generally accepted in some places as fact vs what is actually the fact) a "grade horse" is just a horse that is not registered with any breed associations (which is why in many places that definition is followed and many Warm Bloods are breeds, because they are registered with a breed association). A pure blood that is not registered (even if it qualified to be) is just a grade horse. Some people have "assumed" that it meant a horse with unknown lineage, but that's not the case. You can know a horses entire lineage for 100+ generations on both sides of it's family (so you know what's been passed on and added for 100 generations), but if that horse has not been added to a breed associates records then it's just a, pure bred, grad horse (like my QH mare that couldn't be registered....just grade horse with a known family history). But a horse doesn't not have to be pure bred to not be grade. It just has to be registered (which oddly enough :lol: is why there are Warm Blood "breeds"). Even if some people don't think so (but then they're ignoring what a grade horse "technically" is vs what they want it to be).


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## its lbs not miles

BlueSpark said:


> Its kind of funny that I find myself defending grades when every horse I own currently is registered.
> 
> would I disregard a stallion that is exactly what I want because he's grade? nope.


Nothing odd about. Both my current mares are registered (not by me) and I defend grade horse (that's all we ever made and sold).

No one in there "right" mind is going to reject a stallion that is the text book example for what they want just because it's not registered. Most smart breeders wouldn't (how do people think all these "breeds" came into being :lol:....some grade horse was just what the breeder wanted and was bred to make more like it).


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## its lbs not miles

jaydee said:


> It stands to reason that a badly thought out cross or an accidental mating has the chance of producing a bad result - but that doesn't mean all cross breeding is bad.
> Yes when you breed an arab to an arab you have a general idea what you'll get - assuming of course that both arabs are good quality because despite having one of the longest pedigrees of all horses there are some truly awful Arabians out there and even some of the best ones are useless for anything other than being rail horses
> However when you cross an arab to a TB you get one of the most versatile breeds there is - the Anglo Arab, and the Trakhener owes a lot of its bloodline to the arab, as do all the modern warmblood breeds, the TB traces back to 2 Arabians (and a Turkish horse). All British show ponies have a lot of Arabian blood in them and the best quality show and traditional cobs over there have some Arabian blood to give them a smaller more refined head
> The welsh x TB and the Irish Draft x TB and the Connemara x TB produced and still do produce some great jumping horses and hunters. The Appendix horses are still holding their own in hunter classes in the US
> This years UK Badminton horse trials winner is a Grade mare in US eyes but her value and that of her offspring is going to be so much more than some pedigree Quarter horse that didn't turn out 'quite right'.
> Pedigree horses are what you might need if you show in breeding classes, but you don't need a pedigree to have a good trail or work horse and most of the top competition horses in the world today are Grade horses - although thanks to the various Sport horse and new warmblood registries they mostly do have a record of parentage


We'll have to agree to disagree :lol:.

I've never found that TB/Arabian cross to be that great. In addition to the fact that it's also hot which is all you can expect from breeding one hot breed to another hot breed (but that's a subjective thing since I've never preferred hot horses). Of course I also don't often see anything in the vast majority of US bred TB that I would want in a horse. The light bones that most have are enough reason to make me reject them as something I would want to use for breeding.
Perhaps some that are bred by polo breeders. They're shorter, but more solid. Those are not as common though.


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## Joie

its lbs not miles said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree :lol:.
> 
> I've never found that TB/Arabian cross to be that great. In addition to the fact that it's also hot which is all you can expect from breeding one hot breed to another hot breed (but that's a subjective thing since I've never preferred hot horses). Of course I also don't often see anything in the vast majority of US bred TB that I would want in a horse. The light bones that most have are enough reason to make me reject them as something I would want to use for breeding.
> Perhaps some that are bred by polo breeders. They're shorter, but more solid. Those are not as common though.


I do not find thoroughbreds to be "hot". Actually, the longer they made it on the track, IMO, the quieter the mind…they've seen it all and then some, usually. Anyway...

If you are looking for a TB stallion with depth of bone, here is one:









His sire also happens to be "Not for Love". You can read a bit about his soundness and durability here:

Racehorse Reality Check: Soundness and Durability

Not for Love is also California Chrome's damsire. 


Also, Trakehners are a BREED. The book is closed, except to approved TB and Arabian blood. So, while you can consider the other "breeds" of warmblood to be really just a "type", the Trakehner is a breed. 


Back to your regularly scheduled program...


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## jaydee

squirrelfood said:


> Just about impossible to prove that's true using old DRAWINGS. Its only as good as the artist, which in some cases, isn't so good.


We don't need to rely on drawings - Foxhunter and I were both able to see for ourselves what stamp of warmblood horses first came into the UK from Europe. They were much heavier than the modern day WB and very upright with poor quarters, often very flat. They tended to jump from underneath the fences and although they could get the height very well they were terrible over spreads or for eventing/hunting where scope was needed. Its the influence of the TB blood that's made them the success you see today. 
lb not miles - I love the anglo arab cross and have never found them to be a problem - but then I prefer a slightly 'hot' horse because its got what it takes for jumping or eventing. I really like a horse to have that 'get up and go' attitude. You get a very similar disposition in a welsh x arab or TB and in the Connemara x arab or TB because although they're classed as 'native breeds' both have got Arabian blood in them and the Irish breeds also have Spanish blood to add to that.


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## jaydee

This is a UK TB stallion that raced and then went to stud producing some very good competition horses - nothing flimsy about him and he was exceptionally good mannered. We had one pure TB foal using him and he was the most laid back horse imaginable


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## jaydee

I think as long as the Trakehner stud book allows TB, Anglo Arab, Arabian and Shagya breeds into it its not truly a pure breed compared to those that haven't allowed any other breeds in for many years even though its called a pedigree


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## Foxhunter

its lbs not miles said:


> PLEASE keep that attitude to yourself if you visit parts of Europe. i.e. don't go to Belgium and tell them that the Belgium Warmblood (or Sporthorse...depending on where in Belgium you are) is not a breed. They will explain otherwise to you. You see, it's US and UK thing about a "breed" having to have "closed" studbook. Which is why do many of our "breeds" have ended up being messed up. ).


I have been to the continent several times admittedly a few years ago. The thing was then and possibly still today is their attitude towards rich Americans that want a warm blood and they would sell them anything with papers good or otherwise and from my understanding otherwise was generally what they got. 

Americans are far, far more concerned about registration and the thing that strikes me is that if there is not a register for a cross breed, start one! There are no standards for this registration, no blood tests to prove ancestry but the horse is registered so that is what matters.


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## Foxhunter

Jay - who is that stallion? 

Some years ago there was in the UK, the Hunters Improvement Society, where TB stallions were all judged on conformation, temperament and movement. These stallions were approved and were standing at studs in various ares all through the country. Owners of mares got a much reduced stud fee if they were members of HIS and mares could be approved to. 

There were some very good stallions on that list and many sired excellent competition horses and the occasional steeplechaser too.


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## jmike

seems that there are really strong feelings on both sides of the fence

why are BLM Mustangs desireable? ... they are mutts, and crossbreeds, and have no lineage

.... just curious


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## SunnyDraco

jmike said:


> seems that there are really strong feelings on both sides of the fence
> 
> why are BLM Mustangs desireable? ... they are mutts, and crossbreeds, and have no lineage
> 
> .... just curious


Desire is in the eye of the beholder, there is a wide range of desirable breeding and attritubes. BLM mustangs are usually hardy horses with good footing for mountain trails. Desirable mounts for some horse lovers but not for others, some only desire them because of their wild bred heritage. BLM mustangs are also offered for adoption to help keep the wild herds from overgrazing themselves into starvation and those older wild mustangs take a lot of extra work in training.

There isn't one type of horse that suites everyone's needs and desires. While we can debate about what makes a "purebred" and come to the conclusion that every living horse today is essentially a "mutt", that does not justify breeding any grade horse. Known lineage and using above average stock when breeding increases the chances to breed for a purpose. 









Look closely at the mare in the far back, serious conformation flaws. She is the result of continuing a line to have a piece of that mare you loved. While she is a sweet mare in her later years, it wasn't always so. Her name isn't Princess for her looks, but her attitude as a foal and young horse. Her trot is jarring and short strided while her canter is sideways. No talent at jumping and her limousine back is swayed now. Her sire was well built, level headed and with good breeding of well put together performance horses. Her dam however had some faults but nothing bad, but had lines of unknown lineage. All the other foals by the sire were well put together and smooth gaits, strangers on the trail or in the ring who saw them thought they were stunning, could even pack in the mountains better than horses who were solely used for packing. Why this mare came out like this? It was because the cards were not in her favor on her dam's side, a little bit of this and a little bit of that vomited all the faults into one mare produced down the line. That is the risk every person takes when they breed a horse with unknown lineage, you could get lucky and win or you could fall flat on your face. 

Also, with known lineage, you know if your horse has a chance of carrying known genetic diseases. If their parents tested clear, you know your horse is clear. If you go to an auction and buy young stock with no known lineage, you could be buying a HYPP or HERDA affected horse that may never have any kind of quality life. A large portion of "grade" horses are from registered stock who for whatever reason were never registered. There are registered horses who become "grade" because their papers are lost in owner transfers, a grade horse could be sired by the greatest in their breed or by the worst color bred stallion. All traits (conformation and gaits) are genetic and passed down from one generation to the next, the variation between generations is the prominence of the traits (some traits skip a generation or are stronger on the offspring than the parent).

OP, When horse breeding, what is produced by the horse determines their quality. Even if you breed for yourself a horse whose lineage you know but the cross isn't recognized by a breed registry, I would not keep a colt as a stud. While you may know his lineage, are you keeping all the foals or are others going to own the foals who do not know the lineage as you do? Once a foal you produce is sold or after breeding an outside mare, you lose all control of what happens after that. Buyers aren't going to know the lineage and mare owners won't either, and even if they do, once the horse changes hands, it will be lost anyway. Most horses are bought and sold more than once during their lifetime. Hard enough for the registered stock to travel with their papers much less unregistered stock. 

While there are "grade" horses who are exceptional in different disciplines, they are gems and not the result of average grades. There is a breeder in my area who was advertising young stock for sale, their selling point was how they were raised in the mountains like mustangs and made the best horses for riding in such terrain... All their stock is grade, they don't even keep track of which mare produced which foal and I cringed at the pictures of their young horses for sale with major legs faults, those horses were not going to be sound for very many years, especially if you rode in the mountains regularly doing anything faster than a walk. 

While a rank stallion or mare could produce the sweetest tempered foal, the odds are severely against you winning the temperament gamble. Yet there are rank horses being bred just because of their bloodlines are "desirable", there will always be breeders who look past faults because of color, bloodlines, gaits, size or because babies are cute. The actual ability, traits, temperament and conformation of the stallion as well as their ability to pass those features on determines their quality as a stallion. If a stallion is an excellent eventing competitor but all his foals have the jumping talent of a brick, he is not stallion material for eventing. A race horse who cannot produce runners has little value in the breeding shed. Even Secritariat flopped as a sire, his sons did not run well, however his daughters were excellent producers due to the X factor which he passed to his daughters that causes the abnormally large heart.


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## Cherie

Gee! I came to the party late. I guess I'm just plain stupid. I'm looking for a Percheron or 1/2 Perch / 1/2 QH stallion to breed some of our best AQHA mares to. We have a very good market for our ranch horses and trail horses and still have a few cutting / reining bred horses. But, I am getting sooooo many calls for bigger, heavier horses from riders that would really like a 1/2 or at least a 1/4 draft to carry the bigger, heavier riders we see so many of today. The calm nature, heavy bone and 'thickness' of these part draft horses is in great demand. I, personally, see no reason to not fill that demand.

We have always bred Registered Quarter Horses. I have been very careful what bloodlines I have introduced into our herd. I still have granddaughters (2) and have 5 or 6 great granddaughters of the mare that put me in the Quarter Horse business in 1966. 

I thought enough of these bloodlines that I bought a Jack and raised mules from them in the 90s rather than get rid of them like everyone else did when the great sell-off of the 90s was going on. As it turned out, I sold $1500.00 mule foals out of these good AQHA mares while QH foals were selling for $100.00 or less. 

Now, I want to find the 'right' Percheron or cross stallion and try him on several of these mares. The trail riders and recreational riders we sell most of our horses to now, could care less if they have papers. 

We have watched the 'type' set in the cutting horse decline into a tiny, inbred horse with no bone, no size, high rates of breaking down and no alternative occupation if they don't make it in the cutting pen. Add to that, HERDA in the lines being inbred. The breeders can't find an out-cross because the resulting foals, even though they have more bone and substance and possess the 'hybrid vigor', they are not quick footed enough to beat the little tiny inbred cutters that do make the Futurities. Cutting horse breeders have bred themselves into a corner with these tiny pure cutting bred horses.

I have no problem with serious breeders, large or small, breeding whatever they want to raise and have a use for or a market for. Breeding to 'raise a cute colt' IS NOT a good plan. Anyone who understands 'type' and conformation and the integrity of soundness and usefulness, should be able to breed whatever they can use or sell. JMHO Cherie


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## wakiya

Honestly, a lot non-horse people don't even realize there are different breeds of horses. When the argument comes up between what is a "breed" what is a "strain" and what is a "type" you'll ask three people and get three different answers. Because these are all man-made concepts that are variable and changing. Species, subspecies, genetic difference is measurable and quantifiable. There's a reason there's no reliable test to find out what breed a horse is.

As long as whoever is doing the breeding has a goal and is responsible who are we to judge? If there is a market for the horses great. Grade, registered or whatever, a good horse is a good horse. It's personal preference. Just like head shape (I'm not one for dishes but many are one isn't better than the other), all in the eye of the beholder.


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## its lbs not miles

Foxhunter said:


> I have been to the continent several times admittedly a few years ago. The thing was then and possibly still today is their attitude towards rich Americans that want a warm blood and they would sell them anything with papers good or otherwise and from my understanding otherwise was generally what they got.
> 
> Americans are far, far more concerned about registration and the thing that strikes me is that if there is not a register for a cross breed, start one! There are no standards for this registration, no blood tests to prove ancestry but the horse is registered so that is what matters.


Actually there are several registrations for cross breeds. They are restrictive with regard to what breeds are allowed for crossing, but they are still a cross breed directory. e.g. Belgium Warm Blood, virtually all of the Sporthorse registries (although in Europe just the location within a country can be the only difference between having a "Warm Blood" vs having a "Sporthorse".....same pairings but identified differently), the Georgian Grande, just to name a few.

The obsession with "closed" studbooks is relative new in the history of man and horse. While breeding was controlled and monitored, historically new blood being added from superior specimens from outside the breed (even outside the "type") was done for centuries. In some cases it was to create a new breed, but in most cases it was just to improve the existing breed (which is why you have these really old breeds). In North America we've cranked out "new breeds", watching some slowly merge into others, largely because from the mid 1600's - late 1800's we just identified the type of horse, kept track of what was being bred for it and didn't worry about "breed" registrations (that was something the snooty TB folks worried about back then). In fact for the most part the US back then the TB was just another horse that was used to make changes for a different horse. In the late 1800's, but mostly in the 1900's is when people started going nuts over closed registrations for the vast majority of "breeds" (the TB nuts started a little early and the Arabians started with it a bit before then, but it's breeding records were oral for most of the history so you can imagine how exact they weren't...but that's a different story). However it's also been in the last 100 years that people have started reaching back to the way things were done while hanging on the better tracking.
That's why the Warm Blood (talking about the breed, not the "horse" since most horse breeds are technically warm blood vs hot or cold) and Sporthorse breeds showed up. Of course there are all the other crosses that have become "breeds" based strictly on a two breed crossing (e.g. the Arab/TB...although I think that's a bit silly since the Arab is already a major portion of the TB bloodline having made up a large part of the breeding blood that created the TB in the first place and having been periodically added for a time, and there's the QH/Arab, the QH/TB...although it's been accepted by the AQHA within the breed... and others). The only real difference between what they're doing today vs what was done over 300 years ago is the keeping of better records and since the "purity" of a breed has become such a huge issue these crossing are creating new breeds in most cases vs just making improvements on existing ones (although the open studbook breeds are just continuing to keep improving, much like the historical practices).

There are also blood tests required for many of these breeds with open studbooks (look at the requirements for the Friesian Sporthorse....they can require DNA testing as proof). You'll find that many of these new, superior breeds created from cross breeding keep a very tight control over what is allowed in the breed. And the tend to produce a smaller number of undesirable horse.

But then we'll disagree, because I call them "breeds" (which they are) and you'll say they're grade since they come from different "breeds" (but they aren't....because that's not what "grade" really means). If you can registered it, then by definition it's not grade. And ALL horses, regardless of their lineage, are grade if we take away their registration.

So we're back to the point of all this at the start of this thread. A good horse is a good horse and if it can pass on what you want to preserve then it's worth breeding. That's what the creators of the Arabian, TB, Andalusian, Lipizzaner, QH, Morgan, ASB, TWN, RMH, Dutch Warm Blood, Shire, Clydesdale, etc, etc, etc, (pick any breed, it applies to them all) did which is why we all these breeds and will continue (thank goodness) to keep getting more improved horses (during my lifetime and hopefully for many centuries after).


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## its lbs not miles

Ooops, meant to say if you do register it then it's not grade.

I know what I'm thinking, but my fingers don't.


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## jaydee

Foxhunter said:


> *Jay - who is that stallion?
> *
> Some years ago there was in the UK, the Hunters Improvement Society, where TB stallions were all judged on conformation, temperament and movement. These stallions were approved and were standing at studs in various ares all through the country. Owners of mares got a much reduced stud fee if they were members of HIS and mares could be approved to.
> 
> There were some very good stallions on that list and many sired excellent competition horses and the occasional steeplechaser too.


He is (or was - if he's still alive he's an old lad now) called Thethingaboutitis and stood with the late Mick Burton and his wife Dawn at The Stockings in Staffordshire. The were very good at finding stallions that would produce good hunting/show and jumping/eventing horses. The man I worked for used several of their TB's - The Dane, Mr Potter and Maris Piper (who I also bred a nice mare off) and they stood the Irish Draft Colman there before he moved to his owners at the Embla Stud
It's my understanding that the HIS became the Sport Horse of Great Britain but I could be wrong and yes it was a wonderful concept and had great results
The Sport Horse registry seems to be doing a good job too - but when you look at their list of approved stallions a lot of them are what the US would call Grade Horses
http://www.sporthorsegb.co.uk/stallions.aspx
I wonder how many people realize that this horse failed its KWPN grading inspection and was bought by Karl Hester for a ridiculously low sum of money?


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## jimmyp

SunnyDraco said:


> OP, When horse breeding, what is produced by the horse determines their quality. Even if you breed for yourself a horse whose lineage you know but the cross isn't recognized by a breed registry, I would not keep a colt as a stud. While you may know his lineage, are you keeping all the foals or are others going to own the foals who do not know the lineage as you do? Once a foal you produce is sold or after breeding an outside mare, you lose all control of what happens after that. Buyers aren't going to know the lineage and mare owners won't either, and even if they do, once the horse changes hands, it will be lost anyway. Most horses are bought and sold more than once during their lifetime. Hard enough for the registered stock to travel with their papers much less unregistered stock.


This is all true, but the fact is I could sell any of the horses on my place from the registered Appys and RMH, on down the line to the hip dysplastic Mini, and once they leave my place it is then up to the buyer to make good decisions. 

Jim


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## SunnyDraco

jimmyp said:


> This is all true, but the fact is I could sell any of the horses on my place from the registered Appys and RMH, on down the line to the hip dysplastic Mini, and once they leave my place it is then up to the buyer to make good decisions.
> 
> Jim


That you can, anyone can breed whatever they want for whatever reason they want. But that is when responsible horse ownership and breeding have a role. Anyone can buy a horse, no matter how rank, badly trained, dangerous and a train wreck of conformation, there is no qualifications required for someone to buy a horse. They then need to take responsibility to care for it, which there are many around the world failing every day to take care of the basic needs of horses they purchased. Would you sell or give a horse to someone you knew could not take care of? Plenty of horse sellers do sell to any who want to take the horse and have cash in hand with no concern if the horse is appropriate for them or if they can even afford to feed it. Same with breeding, lots who breed train wrecks and sell the foals for dirt cheap. It isn't hard to find a stallion owner who will have their pasture puff stud cover any mare brought to them. That doesn't mean that they are responsible breeders, taking responsibility for the quality that you breed and the quality of offspring you produce is what makes a responsible breeder. 

That same mare I posted above, she is the granddaughter of the mare my mom had as a teenager. She and her sisters loved that mare growing up, she was out of a grade mare with mixed and unknown breeding. Keeping a piece of a mare who was a favorite as a teenager caught up when the faults are overlooked because of emotional attachment. 
The mare is about 14 years old in this picture:








Even though she had major conformation, movement and temperament faults, my mom still was in love with the idea of her cherished mare as a teenage girl and actually did breed Princess when she was an 8 year old to a beautifully bred Arabian stallion. Fortunately, the experience was an eye opener for my mom, she nearly lost her mare during delivery due to the shape of the mare's vulva. While older mares may have a vulva that becomes more angled with age, Princess was born with a shelf for a vulva and the passageway for a foal was not a straight shot and required lots of physical pulling. Her filly turned out better in gaits (you could actually sit them) because my mom had bred to a stallion with incredible gaits, but her attitude was worse and conformation was just about as bad as her dam, including that limousine back and shelf built vulva. 

Any horse can be sold for the right price. Princess will never be sold, my mom knows that she would not have a happy life or long life is she was sold and isn't worth beans on the market and is taking responsibility of what she created and is caring for her until the day she passes to greener pastures. She can no longer even handle a trailer ride for the past several years, she loads perfectly but she falls, slips and is a sweaty mess within a few miles. 

Being responsible in breeding means you take full responsibility for what you breed and produce. There is always a market for every horse, it could be for eventing, pleasure riding, high end shows, competitive challenges, endurance, trails, pasture puff, baby sitter or slaughter. The goal in breeding is to breed for a purpose and have a market that makes it worth while (even just the satisfaction of knowing you did a good job when it cost you more in breeding and raising a foal than you got for the sale) for the expense of breeding and raising a foal. Any breeder can create pasture puffs and meat horses, there is no skill required or care about what you breed but there also is a large loss of money to breed and raise a foal for what those markets are willing to pay.


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## ZaneyZanne123

The only "purebred" out there is the Arabian and some will argue the Barb. (its a discussion thats been going on for decades in that regard and no one has the conclusion in that one except for personal opinion.)


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## jaydee

^^^^ very true ZaneyZanne - though the Exmoor pony is also very old and classed as 'prehistoric', it has a unique jawbone feature that's been found in fossils of ancient 'horse types' in America it probably has some Arabian blood in it - though not as much as the other native british ponies
One theory suggests 4 original types that contributed to the modern day horse - The Asiatic Wild Horse, the Tarpan, the Heavy Forest Horse and the Tundra Horse, all but the Asiatic Wild Horse are now extinct


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## Saddlebag

I wonder about the forerunner of the Arabian, a small horse that was found in Turkey. It too was believed to be an ancient breed. Stands maybe 12 hh. Blessed are the wealthy as it was an American woman who learned of these and bo't a number for breeding stock to re-establish the breed. What she found was mainly owned by poor farmers but they were absolutely exquisite little horses.


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## wakiya

I have my doubts about the modern Arabian but we'll save that for another rainy day and cup of tea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

Saddlebag said:


> I wonder about the forerunner of the Arabian, a small horse that was found in Turkey. It too was believed to be an ancient breed. Stands maybe 12 hh. Blessed are the wealthy as it was an American woman who learned of these and bo't a number for breeding stock to re-establish the breed. What she found was mainly owned by poor farmers but they were absolutely exquisite little horses.


You are talking about Caspian horses. the are very refined and only about 12 hh.
Wakiya there might have been some out crossing in the polish and russian programs centuries ago but even so that would still make the arabian the purest of breeds.
Straight Egyptian arabians have not been outcrossed for thousands of years. Shalom


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## jaydee

The differences in Arabians that we have photographic evidence of from the 1800's and the modern day breeding are not due to cross breeding but to selective breeding - where those with the most desirable qualities were used to produce the most refined horses (as perceived)
Unfortunately for too long the head became the most important feature at a great loss to conformation and limbs but the more the Arabian is aimed at being a useful riding horse and not a pasture art form the better the breed is becoming again
According to popular research the breeds that have the closest links to the now extinct first types of Equine and the least evidence of mixed breeding so are classed as 'prehistoric' that still exist today are Caspian, Exmoor, Friesian, Ariegeois, Camargue, Barb, Sorraia, British Shetland and Highland, 
The Arabian seems to be placed by some in the prehistoric slot and by others its classed as an 'ancient breed' and links the Caspian as probably being influential in its evolvement
Whatever - its impact on the horses of today is bigger than any other


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## ZaneyZanne123

jaydee said:


> the differences in arabians that we have photographic evidence of from the 1800's and the modern day breeding are *not due to cross breeding but to selective breeding* - where those with the most desirable qualities were used to produce the most refined horses (as perceived)
> unfortunately for too long the head became the most important feature at a great loss to conformation and limbs but the more the arabian is aimed at being a useful riding horse and not a pasture art form the better the breed is becoming again
> according to popular research the breeds that have the closest links to the now extinct first types of equine and the least evidence of mixed breeding so are classed as 'prehistoric' that still exist today are caspian, exmoor, friesian, ariegeois, camargue, barb, sorraia, british shetland and highland,
> the arabian seems to be placed by some in the prehistoric slot and by others its classed as an 'ancient breed' and links the caspian as probably being influential in its evolvement
> whatever - its impact on the horses of today is bigger than any other


 
bingo!!!


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