# Is my farrier doing a good job?



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I started leasing my horse, Woody, back in February and moved him to the barn where I've been taking lessons for the past several years. Never having had a horse of my own, I went with the barn's regular farrier.

Woody has aluminum shoes on his front feet (required by the lease; there's no real reason the shoes are aluminum except that the owner feels like it's a "treat" for him) but is barefoot in back.

About 5-6 weeks ago, I noticed that Woody's back feet, which had been trimmed less than two weeks ago were chipping at the quarters. On closer inspection, I noticed the chips were at the base of pretty obvious flares. Talking to my trainer and a Pete Ramey-style natural trimmer at my barn, it sounded like this was pretty typical of a farrier-style trim. Taking a closer look at Woody's hooves, I'm not convinced my farrier is doing all that great of a job in general, but I'm also wondering if maybe I'm just being too critical since in the "real world" no hooves are perfect and this is the first time I've been paying this much attention to a horse's feet.

I took photos last week after Woody's latest trim (literally about an hour after the trim) Instead of posting all of them (there are a lot of them, and they're pretty big), I'll post a couple here, and the rest are here: Photos of all Woody's Hooves

Woody's front left, side view. To me, it looks like his heel is a bit underrun and the shoe doesn't fit very well:









His rear left, toe view. Can you spot the flare? :-|









Woody doesn't have any problems with lameness, tripping, etc. So should I be worried about his feet and look for another farrier?

The owner doesn't really believe in natural trimming, but I'm trying to convince her to let him go barefoot for the winter at least. I'm hoping that if he does well over the winter she'll let me continue indefinitely...


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

cant see the pics


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Not sure why I don't have an "Edit" button... I'll try attaching the images instead.

Is the link not working, as well? I hate to attach that many images in a post, but if it's just not working maybe I'll add on a few more.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

I can see the pics in your first post, I'm far from an expert(especially with shoes as my horses are all barefoot) but it doesn't look like that good of a job to me. I see lots of flaring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

before you read my comment know I AM NOT AND DO NOT CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT but from what I do know and what I can see in these photos looks to me like in the first picture of the hoof with the shoe it looks like the heels are a little under run and if your horse is getting shoed properly this should not happen also in the second picture that hoof is way too long and the shape does not appear to be even. (I can only see those two pictures from where you commented the 2nd time)
From what I see I would say it is time for a new farrier.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

They look bad to me. One shoe looks like it was set crooked. Flares and just not a good job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks- I'm glad to hear it's not just me being overly critical. I told Woody's owner about my concerns before she came to give him his wormer a couple weeks ago, and she said they looked fine to her. I'm not sure she really remembered to take a close look while she was out there.

I will definitely be looking for someone new! There's a farrier who comes out to my area every 7 weeks who's both a farrier and a natural hoof trimmer, so if his references turn out positive I think I'll give him a try!


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## Gluey33 (Jun 2, 2008)

He's left the shoes a little short and the front feet are in danger of running forward. Heels are slightly under run. He's left some crappy flaky sole on the fronts and his finish is messy.

The backs, your very right to be concerned about the flares and if you look carefully you will see that the M/L balance is off to. The white foot has a broken forward Pastern, needs a bit more off the heels and bad M/L balance. They're not finished at all, love the deep rasp marks, not.



> Talking to my trainer and a Pete Ramey-style natural trimmer at my barn, it sounded like this was pretty typical of a farrier-style trim.



One of my pet peeves. There is no such thing as a farrier style trim. A trim is either good, bad or mediocre, wether its done by a "trimmer" or a "farrier":wink:
​


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

Here is why I gave up trimming. Other than it affecting my already bad back was that a lot of "barefoot" farriers are taught -including me- that you do one small step at a time and over time th hoof corrects. I had my horses done by myself and also a known barefoot trimmer who I was told was great and my boss used to use him. I always felt uncomfortable that problems took far too long to correct and after he turned into a farrier that decided not to respect customer service and actually return peoples calls I switched to one my besti tried out and he travels and hour and a half just to come trim my horses feet now that I don't and ha only been out 5 times now and all my horses problems are gone. In fact the flaring that was "slowly being corrected" by the old farrier was in fact completely corrected first time the new one came out and trimmed an none of my horses have ever been lame from my new farrier trimming. Yes there is under run heels on the near fore and shoe seems to small. On the near hind there is such intense flaring there is no way he is doing a good job on the hooves considering he has been out since you have had that horse in Feb. Let alone all the toe lengths and finish jibs in the hooves. My farrier will lightly rasp the wall every trim which promotes healthy wall growth and there appears to be founder or malnutrition lines in the hooves especially in the near fore shot (I can only see the two shots of the near fore and hind). Definitely find a new farrier and perhaps put him on a hoof supp like gelatine (cheaper trick which works miracles I learnt it from qh showing people here) or some other proper hoof supp. But defs get a new farrier that is shocking work IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

I keep all my horses barefoot so bare with me on this. I agree his hind hooves are WAY too long. The foot itself is very steep. The heels on both front and back are what seems the most worrisome to me. This photo:
http://photos-3.dropbox.com/i/l/jFH...hDMsLS6juLfV3Uo/10322849/1311660000/a6e903a#3
Is so shocking. The heel is so steep and looks to be almost an inch away from the shoe. IDK about shoeing but this seems very very steep to me. Of course the heel shouldn't be too short and of course each trimmer will vary on their type and style. But the hind being so long and the front being so steep seems like a problem waiting to happen. I also wonder why they are cutting into the sole so much and it almost looks like they have no bar either. I'd consult a second opinion and possibly a vet. 

Pat


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

verona1016 said:


> Woody has aluminum shoes on his front feet (required by the lease; there's no real reason the shoes are aluminum except that the owner feels like it's a "treat" for him) ....
> The owner doesn't really believe in natural trimming, but I'm trying to convince her to let him go barefoot for the winter at least. I'm hoping that if he does well over the winter she'll let me continue indefinitely...


Yes, well, with the logic:? of the first paragraph above, I wouldn't waste too much effort trying to argue logically with her!:lol: Regardless of whether or not she 'believes' in 'natural trimming'(whatever that is...:twisted, you may like to put it to her that it is generally held (in conventional farriery texts) that horses should always be given regular periods out of shoes for their feet to 'rest'. That regardless what 'style' you may or may not believe in, it is generally held that back to back to back shoeing without respite is not a good move. Also - which might be another argument against, if you can't get a good farrier more often - 7 weeks between trims is a bit on the long side, especially if you want to correct probs & keep feet in good shape.

There are so many factors that effect hoof health and I don't know how this horse's feet were before this farrier happened, his management, etc, etc, so I am loath to just blame the farrier without further info. However, below is what I can see & my opinion of what would be done differently.

Yes, his front heels are quite 'run under'. It appears that the toe was probably quite flared but the farrier has addressed this from the front of the wall. I really feel that it is very difficult at best to try to solve these issues with the same logic that created them - shoes that peripherally load the hoof walls. 

In addition, I don't get why on earth these shoes are so wide - wider even than the flared feet. At least those quarter clips aren't likely to contribute to the damage tho... I don't get someone's comment about 'short shod', as the heels of the shoes are already back a fair bit further than the platforms of the underrun heels - can't see what the advantage of putting more pressure on the already crushed heels is, with longer shoes.

Yes, also agree it appears the farrier hasn't been successful at(I'm assuming he's tried) addressing the flares behind either. It appears that he may have left the outsides a tad longer at the heels, although from these angles it's not really possible to judge medial/lateral balance. Heels look a tad long in backs generally too & quarters on both sides of his right hind and at least the outside of his left are too long, need 'scooping'. Releiving the wall pressure from the ground surface is what is most important IMO in allowing flares to grow out. Some of the hoof may be rasped on the surface - as it appears he's done at the toes - but it is largely cosmetic and don't generally think it's a good move past about 1/3 up the wall. It appears that while he's possibly left the heels too long, he's perhaps also 'stood up' the foot by rasping into the toe sole. I don't know that there is ever a reason that may be a good idea.

Bars on the outsides of the hinds at least look like they could lose a bit more, at least at the back half near the heels. I'm not one for removing any more from the bottom of the hoof than is absolutely necessary, so I wouldn't *necessarily* be inclined to remove any more 'crappy' or otherwise sole from the hoof without good reason and don't think paring the frog is a good idea, except to remove daggy bits. I would rasp off the outer walls right around(& more than just outsides @ outside flared quarters) into a nice 'mustang roll' to reduce undue strain, leverage & chipping. I'd say the infection in the separated quarter of his right foot likely needs to be excavated & treated.

To whoever said their pet peeve was differentiating a 'farrier trim', I think regarding the above, scooping quarters & mustang rolls are not generally done by farriers who are accustomed to shoes, so making the ground surface of the foot flat is a practice that could be classed as a 'farrier' style IME.

To Stormvale,


> a lot of "barefoot" farriers are taught -including me- that you do one small step at a time and over time th hoof corrects.


So far as I know, I would think that 'rule' applies to almost all 'styles', be it 'barefoot' or otherwise. It does depend on *what* is actually done as to whether it's effective at addressing a problem though, not just how quickly it's tackled. As to the specifics, just because someone lables themselves 'barefoot' doesn't mean that all said labled do the same thing, just like all 'farriers' don't trim the same - there are good & bad & a range of different theories...



> In fact the flaring that was "slowly being corrected" by the old farrier was in fact completely corrected first time the new one came out and trimmed


If by 'completely corrected' means he removed all evidence of it, I think that's sort of what this farrier in question may have done to the horse's toes - he's rasped off the flare from the surface of the wall, without addressing the real cause - the undue pressure from underneath. This IMO is a cosmetic 'cure', not a functional one.



> My farrier will lightly rasp the wall every trim which promotes healthy wall growth


I don't know that this is a good practice, or that it promotes healthy growth. Be interested in any evidence to justify that claim?

I do agree that if not already being done, good nutritional supplimentation is a good move. Gelatine is pretty much just protein, with a heap of amino acids, which is good. Those are but a few of a heap of nutrients that are likely imbalanced/lacking, so I wouldn't just give gelatine.


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## Day Mares (Jul 16, 2011)

Short answer: No.
So glad you have picked this up and are willing to do something about it.
I wish you luck with horsey's owner, sounds like a bit of a challenge.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm no expert at all on hooves, so I wont go in to detail apart from I don't like the look of that trim at all.

Just a question though (correct me if im wrong) but i've always known rear shoes to have the two toe clips on them, fronts usually only have one clip (that i'm familiar with) si in that case, he has rear shoes on his front hooves? Was there a reason for that? does it even make any difference?


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Woody has aluminum shoes on his front feet (required by the lease; there's no real reason the shoes are aluminum except that the owner feels like it's a "treat" for him) but is barefoot in back.


Horseshoes are designed to address specific needs of the equine distal limb. The owners "reason" for having the horse shod in aluminum is, of course, just silly.

As for "bare in the back", I would wager a fair guess that about 80% of all shod horses are left barefoot on the hinds. The reason for this has to do largely with the function of the hind limbs versus the fores. We could discuss this topic in more detail should anyone have an interest.



> About 5-6 weeks ago, I noticed that Woody's back feet, which had been trimmed less than two weeks ago were chipping at the quarters. On closer inspection, I noticed the chips were at the base of pretty obvious flares.


Minor chipping at the quarters is a common consequence of a barefoot horse and generally not something to be overly concerned about. If the chipping becomes excessive it can suggest the need for either a change in the trim or a need for shoes.



> Talking to my trainer and a Pete Ramey-style natural trimmer at my barn, it sounded like this was pretty typical of a farrier-style trim.


Couple of points.

First, trainers aren't generally farriers (I'm an exception) and most trainers aren't horse trainers... they are "riding instructors". In my experience, "trainers" typically know no more about equine bio-mechanics and specifically the management of the equine distal limb than the riders they teach. In short, they are typically a poor source of information regarding your horses feet.

As to "Pete Ramey - style natural trimmers"... don't get too caught up in the "barefoot movement". The vast majority of what you'll read/hear has more to do with marketing than proper farriery practices.

When the only tool you bring to the table is a trim, everything looks like a trim and you better sell the heck out of the idea that all horses should be barefoot at all times. 

By the way, there's no such thing as a "farrier trim". That's just more "barefoot movement" marketing propaganda.



> Taking a closer look at Woody's hooves, I'm not convinced my farrier is doing all that great of a job in general...


Me either.



> ...but I'm also wondering if maybe I'm just being too critical since in the "real world" no hooves are perfect and this is the first time I've been paying this much attention to a horse's feet.


The art and science of farriery is found in details that are usually far too subtle for the average horse owner to even recognize. If the owner can see it, it's probably pretty bad.



> I took photos last week after Woody's latest trim (literally about an hour after the trim) Instead of posting all of them (there are a lot of them, and they're pretty big), I'll post a couple here, and the rest are here: Photos of all Woody's Hooves


So these photos were taken approximately 1 hour after the horse was both trimmed and shod? If so, then the horse was "reset". That means trimming the animal then re-installing the same shoes that were used before. Those shoes are wore out and should not have been reset. It is extremely rare that I can ever reset aluminum shoes. They have their advantages, but they wear out quickly as compared to steel shoes.



> Woody's front left, side view. To me, it looks like his heel is a bit underrun and the shoe doesn't fit very well:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We'll cover Woody's specific issues in the next post.










> Woody doesn't have any problems with lameness, tripping, etc. So should I be worried about his feet and look for another farrier?


I've often commented that it would be a blessing if a horses way of going was always proportional to the quality of hoofcare maintenance applied. 

Sadly, some horses seem to get along just fine in spite of poor work. The horse has some amazing compensatory capabilities and that, as often as not, serves to hide a lot of problems until it's too late.



> The owner doesn't really believe in natural trimming, but I'm trying to convince her to let him go barefoot for the winter at least. I'm hoping that if he does well over the winter she'll let me continue indefinitely...


Given that the owner has already demonstrated she/he doesn't know anything about hoofcare (aluminum shoes are a "treat"?) and you have admitted that it's not a topic you've paid much attention to, why do either of you feel qualified to decide what is best for the horse? 

Better to trust a professional that has invested their life and livelihood in the subject at hand. Your job should be in self-education so that you can more readily identify, in general, a quality farrier versus some of the backyard hacks so prevalent in the industry.

I like what Danvers Child, accomplished farrier and author, had to say about this topic at a farriers clinic I hosted a couple years ago.






Cheers,
Mark


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

Woody could use some help. We'll talk in broad strokes here and if you have specific questions, please feel free to ask.

The front feet are shod in aluminum shoes that are poorly fit, not the best solution for this horse and are effectively wore out. Three pretty good reasons to consider a change in protocol.

There's a good "rule-of-thumb" when shoeing a horse. "_Put the shoe where the foot ought to be_".

Put your brain in high school physics mode. Think mechanics.

The horses foot is "plastic", not "elastic". That means the hoof capsule (and the bones inside) will model/remodel according to the forces placed upon it. Those vectors (forces) are generally, the horses load/mass and the ground reaction forces opposing that mass.

When we trim and shoe a horse, the focus becomes protection, dorsal/palmar (dp) balance, medial/lateral (m/l) balance, traction and influence on gait.

These 4 factors then become the reasons why a horse may, or may not, need shoes.

Look at the solar (bottom) view of your horses left fore.



The shoe is "racked" to the lateral (outside) side. While the shoe generally follows the perimeter of the foot, it does so in a manner that is assymetrical. This lack of symmetry acts to place imbalanced load distribution on the hoof capsule. The capsule, being a plastic medium, will remodel in a manner that follows that general shape. This horse lands on the lateral heel then loads the inside heel. The foot will then paddle as it breaks over on the lateral toe. The foot will "drop" or prolapse between the weak heels of the shoe. 

Look at the palmar view of the same foot.










Notice how the frog and bulbs of the foot are dropping between the heels of the shoe. This problem will continue, placing additional stress on the central sulci of the frog. The frog is trying to reach passive ground support. It's not so much a problem on soft ground but on a hard surface is more readily apparent. There's not enough support in the back of this foot.

Someone commented on the quarter clips. In this case, I agree with their use. Quarter clips help to hold a foot together if we see overly broad medial/lateral expansion of the hoof capsule. This hoof is broadening because of a poorly fit, inappropriate shoe. The clips somewhat compensate for this.

Look at the dorsal wall of the left fore.










Notice how the wall has been rasped down to meet the leading edge of the shoe. In farrier circles, we call this "cowboy shoeing" or "dubbing" the toe. It's a consequence of trying to hide a poorly fit shoe. In the short term it doesn't really hurt anything but it looks like hell. In the long term, continued practice can overly thin the dorsal wall, compromising the structural integrity of the capsule and increasing load on the anterior solar region. 

Between the poor fit and small coverage this shoe provides, wall distortion and solar prolapse is inevitable. A heavier, wide webbed shoe, better fit around the foot with broader heel coverage would better serve the needs of this horse.

In example... here's one I did last week.



















We'll come back to the hind feet in another post.

Cheers,
Mark


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

Woody's hind feet problems are a consequence of load forces applied in an imbalanced manner. While trimming can better assist in these problems, a pair of properly fit, supportive shoes can more quickly address the loading problems.

Woody is base-narrow in the hind limbs and probably a bit sickle-hocked. 

As a consequence of his uneven loading, he will naturally load (over-load) the insides and flair to the lateral side of the foot. The more he flares, the more he flares. :wink:

Think of it in terms of a mechanical lever. The longer the lever, the more force is exerted. In this case, as the flare expands, the force applied to the distal edge of that flare increases. 

The shape of the bars tells the story. See how the lateral bar is progressively moving to the outside. It's "pushing" on that outside wall as it folds against the solar tissues. As dirt packs in that foot, the bar pushes out even further. The wall of the foot follows that distortion force and flares to the outside.

A set of shoes can redistribute those distortion forces, bringing the foot back into mechanical balance. In this case, an extended lateral heel (not a trailer!) can provide the needed, additional support.

You can't just rasp off all of that flare. The result would be excessive thinning of the wall, compromising it structurally. 

Hope you find these observations helpful. Have a frank discussion with your farrier about the mechanical problems you see in this horses feet and see what options he can offer. If his reaction is "that's just the way his feet grow", then you'll want to consider a change in practitioners. Hopefully he'll have more practical council to offer.

Cheers,
Mark


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## sapphirain (Jun 10, 2011)

I agree with the following comments.. I am not an expert either but you can clearly tell that that is a bad job. Definitely look for another farrier, wish you the best with it.


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## sapphirain (Jun 10, 2011)

Horseman56 said:


> Woody's hind feet problems are a consequence of load forces applied in an imbalanced manner. While trimming can better assist in these problems, a pair of properly fit, supportive shoes can more quickly address the loading problems.
> 
> Woody is base-narrow in the hind limbs and probably a bit sickle-hocked.
> 
> ...


I wish you loved in Florida!!! Thanks for posting, I learned a lot just reading what you had to say...


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks all for your insight  I'm actively looking for a new farrier now, so hopefully I will find someone who is more capable the next time around!



> There is no such thing as a farrier style trim. A trim is either good, bad or mediocre, wether its done by a "trimmer" or a "farrier"


Yeah, I know this should be the case, and a lot of people who have farriers (or are farriers!) who do good trims get offended by the blanket statement that a "farrier trim" is no good. I'd agree with Loosie that what I meant by "farrier trim" is that the foot is left flat with no rolling or scooping of the quarters.



> there appears to be founder or malnutrition lines in the hooves especially in the near fore shot


I don't think he has any history of founder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new hoof growth looks differently after I got him in Feb. He was pasture & hay only from what I could tell before, and looked a bit underweight (body score of 4, maybe? I'm no expert and it was hard to tell through his winter coat) He's put on noticeable weight since then and looks good now. (At least I think so... my avatar is a recent pic of him) He eats a pretty good amount of grain (he's a big guy) so I can't imagine he was getting everything he needed from winter pasture and hay.



> you may like to put it to her that it is generally held (in conventional farriery texts) that horses should always be given regular periods out of shoes for their feet to 'rest'.


That's a good point. I e-mailed her to ask if I could pull the front shoes for the winter after "show season." Even though he doesn't go to that many shows, that seems like something she might be more comfortable with.



> > Quote:
> > My farrier will lightly rasp the wall every trim which promotes healthy wall growth
> 
> 
> I don't know that this is a good practice, or that it promotes healthy growth. Be interested in any evidence to justify that claim?


I'd also be interested in reading anything about this practice. This farrier does seem to rasp the walls of every horse I've seen him work on- I'll try to remember to ask him why he does it next time he's out!



> If so, then the horse was "reset". That means trimming the animal then re-installing the same shoes that were used before. Those shoes are wore out and should not have been reset. It is extremely rare that I can ever reset aluminum shoes. They have their advantages, but they wear out quickly as compared to steel shoes.


Yes, the farrier has actually reset these shoes twice. I was a little surprised the first time he reset them, but since Woody doesn't spend much time on hard surfaces, I was willing to believe they actually hadn't worn very much. This time I'm beginning to suspect he just didn't bother to go get another pair before coming out here (since afaik Woody is the only horse he shoes in aluminum, so he doesn't generally have them in stock)



> Given that the owner has already demonstrated she/he doesn't know anything about hoofcare (aluminum shoes are a "treat"?) and you have admitted that it's not a topic you've paid much attention to, why do either of you feel qualified to decide what is best for the horse?
> 
> Better to trust a professional that has invested their life and livelihood in the subject at hand. Your job should be in self-education so that you can more readily identify, in general, a quality farrier versus some of the backyard hacks so prevalent in the industry.


I agree, I have absolutely no qualifications for judging what is best for my horse's feet. But someone who is a professional whose livelihood is invested in the care of horses' feet isn't necessarily going to give me good advice either (i.e. my current farrier) I do think this experience gives me a better chance of asking the right questions before the next farrier gives it a try, but I still don't know a foolproof method for weeding out the "backyard hacks"...



> Woody's hind feet problems are a consequence of load forces applied in an imbalanced manner. While trimming can better assist in these problems, a pair of properly fit, supportive shoes can more quickly address the loading problems.


I'm certainly not opposed to putting shoes on his back feet. It's one thing I had wondered about doing, since pulling the fronts and having the trimmer work on Woody isn't an option. I will certainly discuss it with the new farrier when I find one.



> Woody is base-narrow in the hind limbs and probably a bit sickle-hocked.


Out of curiosity, how can you tell from just the hoof pictures?


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

A farrier is good or bad...I don't believe in all this "natural hoof trimmer" stuff either. My farrier does barefoot or shoes, he does a good job every time, so what does the word "natural" really mean? I definitely agree with you though, that is not a good job for all the reasons others have already mentioned. I do think that some serious issues take time to fix, but issues that arise from just plain old not trimming enough or paying attention to hoof balance can easily be corrected in one session and is much more benificial to the horse. My advice would be to find a new farrier based on references, looking at some of their work, and talking to the person yourself to see if what they say makes sense, regardless of the label they put on themselves.


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Thanks all for your insight  I'm actively looking for a new farrier now, so hopefully I will find someone who is more capable the next time around!


It's no easy task for the horse owner to separate the wheat from the chaff in this industry. That task is made more difficult by the lack of any accreditation standards requirements. 

While not perfect, I've found the AFA (American Farrier's Association) to represent the most credible source of practicing farriers. Their certification standards assure that a farrier must have demonstrated at least minimal skills at some point in their career. No free passes with that organization. They have a "find a farrier" database on their website.



> (Verona responding to Gluey33) ...Yeah, I know this should be the case, and a lot of people who have farriers (or are farriers!) who do good trims get offended by the blanket statement that a "farrier trim" is no good.
> 
> I'd agree with Loosie that what I meant by "farrier trim" is that the foot is left flat with no rolling or scooping of the quarters.


Again, there is no such thing as a "farrier trim". It's a label adopted by the barefoot movement to suggest that farriers will generally trim a foot completely flat, as in preparation for shoes, even when the horse is intended to be left barefoot. It's a misleading suggestion at best as no competent farrier does this. 

Scooping the quarters is a poor practice at best and, as a practice, has it roots in three sources.

Inexperienced practitioners will often "scoop" the quarters because they are following the sole plane with their nippers. The sole plane on many horses tends to dip through the heel quarters. A novice will allow their nippers to follow this dip, creating that gutted quarters look.

In some cases it's what we call "right handed farrier's disease". The practitioner will tend to lift slightly on the rasp handle, removing material in a side-to-side motion across the hoof surface. Because they are not holding the rasp level and don't know how to work diagonally across the hoof, they'll often gut the quarters medially on the left fore and laterally on the right fore. Turn this scenario around for a left handed practitioner. 

Finally, there is a method called the 4-point trim. The theory was based on a flawed model of the feral horse and presumed that load/mass was supported primarily at the "pillars" of the toe and the buttress of the heels. That methodology was largely debunked in a study provided by Dr. Michael Miller, MD, CFJ, FWCF in his book "The mirage of the Natural Foot". 

In short, gutting (scooping) the quarters of the horses foot reduces the total surface area of the distal wall in contact with the ground and creates a distorted solar weight bearing surface. The result is an increase per square unit measure of load pressure and distortion forces applied across the reduced weight bearing surface. A proper trim intended for barefoot use can be accomplished while preserving foot mass and maximizing ground support surface area.






















> I don't think he has any history of founder, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new hoof growth looks differently after I got him in Feb. He was pasture & hay only from what I could tell before, and looked a bit underweight (body score of 4, maybe? I'm no expert and it was hard to tell through his winter coat) He's put on noticeable weight since then and looks good now. (At least I think so... my avatar is a recent pic of him) He eats a pretty good amount of grain (he's a big guy) so I can't imagine he was getting everything he needed from winter pasture and hay.


I agree. It is a common practice of barefoot trimmers to label every instance of growth rings as an indicator of previous laminitic activity. They are wrong more often than not. The "rings" in your horses foot are more likely a complex history of minor metabolic disruptions in the coronary corium from which the horn tubules emerge and imbalanced mechanical stress applied to the capsule wall. These rings can be found in nearly all horses and are rarely indicative of laminitic activity. 



> > _"you may like to put it to her that it is generally held (in conventional farriery texts) that horses should always be given regular periods out of shoes for their feet to 'rest'." _
> >
> > That's a good point. I e-mailed her to ask if I could pull the front shoes for the winter after "show season." Even though he doesn't go to that many shows, that seems like something she might be more comfortable with.
> 
> ...


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

ScharmLily said:


> A farrier is good or bad...I don't believe in all this "natural hoof trimmer" stuff either. My farrier does barefoot or shoes, he does a good job every time, so what does the word "natural" really mean?


Careful, lest someone accuse you of harboring inordinate amounts of common sense! :wink:



> ....issues that arise from just plain old not trimming enough or paying attention to hoof balance can easily be corrected in one session and is much more benificial to the horse.


I often hear the argument that it will take many sessions to effect any significant redress of problems in a horses feet.

Personally, I prefer to deliver the best work I can during that first visit instead of "milking" the customer via some fictional need to tend a horses feet every two or three weeks. Even if it's a horse to be left barefoot.


Before...


















And after....












> My advice would be to find a new farrier based on references, looking at some of their work, and talking to the person yourself to see if what they say makes sense, regardless of the label they put on themselves.


Good advice!

Cheers,
Mark


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

Thankyou mark I have also learnt a hell of a lot from you and wish you were even in western Australia near me!!! I have learnt things that I now will be asking my farrier a lot more questions than I already do now. And to be honest I only ever learnt enough to keep my horses sound never got into the full on dynamics of it which I am very intrigued about now lol thanks to a smarter brain source haha. I do know at least a good and a bad trim when I see one Luke you said so at least I know something lol. Thankyou again everything you have talked about is absolutely brilliant! Especially about the rasping the wall to prevent bacteria and that makes a lot more sense to me!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

* like
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Mark is an incredible farrier with more hoof knowledge than I could ever hope to have. Another great piece of information that I hope lots of people (OP especially) read and really absorb.

Oh oh! Just one more thing. Mark, Loosie, could you both run down a quick list of basic questions that a horse owner should ask a new or prospective farrier? I may be in the market soon and I think it would be a good idea to hear it from the pros.


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> Mark is an incredible farrier with more hoof knowledge than I could ever hope to have. Another great piece of information that I hope lots of people (OP especially) read and really absorb.


Thanks for the flowers. :wink:



> Oh oh! Just one more thing. Mark, Loosie, could you both run down a quick list of basic questions that a horse owner should ask a new or prospective farrier? I may be in the market soon and I think it would be a good idea to hear it from the pros.


There are good questions to ask and there are questions that probably shouldn't be asked! Here's a few tips that might help.



Never start the conversation by asking about price. Most competent farriers in a given area are generally competitive in fee schedules. They have to be or they would not long remain in business. If you do hear pricing that "sounds too good to be true", you can bet dollars against donut holes that you'll be getting exactly what you're paying for.
It's okay to ask a farrier how long he/she has been practicing but what they tell you may not be particularly useful. A farrier may claim they have been shoeing horses for 30 years. The unanswered question becomes... do they have 30 years of experience or... 1 year of experience that they've been repeating for 29 years? See the difference?
Asking about certification has some value but you have to careful about what certification. An AFA certified journeyman farrier has absolutely had to demonstrate a very strong level of both academic and practical skill.... at least once in their lifetime. Doesn't guarantee you they'll deliver their best work the day you need them, but it does go a long way towards assuring at least some good competency. 

Certification with the Guild of Professional Farriers also carries a good amount of credibility. 

Sadly, there are other certifications out there that are nearly laughable. While there are some excellent BWFA farriers, the certification levels offered by the BWFA is nearly worthless. 

There are some excellent farriers that are not certified and some valid reasons why a farrier may not pursue certification. 

I have reviewed most of the better known "barefoot trimmer" type certifications in the US. Suffice it to say that none represent any serious credibility and most are ridiculous in the experience and skill they claim to represent. 

Certification in the United Kingdom represents the pinnacle of quality in the world. The FWCF farriers are, in my view, the best trained farriers anywhere and must complete an intensive 4 years of training and apprenticeship before earning their credentials.
Ask the farrier if he hot shapes and hot fits shoes. He may not need to do either to meet your horses needs, but these are basic skills that every farrier should possess. This is a key question for horse owners. Many of the "backyard hacks" wont' even carry a portable forge, let alone know how to use one. A forge doesn't guarantee competency, but it sure is a strong hint that the farrier can do more than simply shape and nail a keg shoe.
Ask how and when visits are scheduled. Does the farrier schedule the next appointment immediately when he finishes working on your horse or is it an ad-hoc arrangement?
Do not call a farrier and say, "My horse needs a trim" or "My horse needs shoes". Simply say that you are in need of farrier service for your horse then wait for the farrier to ask a few questions. His questions will tell you a lot about his experience level and business practices. For instance, he should ask you....

How old is your horse and what is the breed?
Is the horse currently barefoot or shod?
How do you use the horse? Trail riding, pasture pet, show horse, specific discipline, etc.
Does your horse have any history of lameness?
He may ask you who your current veterinarian is.

Sometimes it's not about what you ask the farrier; it's about what he asks you!
If your horse performs in a specific performance discipline, ask the farrier if he has experience in that discipline. While most farriers are "general practitioners" there are certainly areas of specialization that may concern you. Examples include:

Reining
Polo
Barrel Racing
Thoroughbred, Quarterhorse, ASB or STB racing
Gaited horses used in the show ring (e.g. Tennesse Walkers, Morgans)
Any therapeutic or corrective shoeing.

While some may argue that other disciplines/breeds require "special" shoeing or trimming, this is usually not true. Examples would be:

Any horse (gaited or not) used for trail riding. 
Low level hunter/jumpers.
Low level western pleasure, horsemanship or showmanship.
Pasture Ornaments.
Ask your farrier if he has care, custody and control insurance.
Ask if he is a full-time, full service provider. A lot of the "backyard hacks" have non-farriery jobs and do the farrier work on the side for extra spending money.
There are things the horse owner can do to assure the best possible service once you have selected a professional farrier. Here's a few "do's" and "don'ts".



Try to provide a reasonable place for the work to be done. This includes shelter from the weather (usually a barn) with a firm, level surface to work on. It is very difficult to evaluate and trim/shoe a horse on unlevel ground. Working in a pasture or your backyard is a worst case scenario for a farrier.
Most farriers will need access to electric and water. They need electric to power their rig and any power tools they may use. They need water for their quenching bucket.
Good lighting is important.
Make sure your horse is ready. This means he is waiting in the barn, reasonably cleaned up and dry.
Training! One of the most important things you can do to assure good quality is to make sure you horse is trained to stand quietly and to hold his feet up when asked. A poorly behaved horse is a risk to the farrier; will have a huge effect on the quality of work being delivered and a good way to assure the farrier won't be back. Training means holding a foot up for at least 2 minutes. Many owners teach their horse to bring the foot back. Don't forget that the farrier needs the horse to bring the foot forward too! You can buy cheap hoof stands on ebay for practice purposes.
Remember that your farrier is human too. If you've got 5 horses to be worked on and the farrier will there several hours, he might appreciate being offered the use of a bathroom.
I know it's boring to stand there for hours holding horses. It's hard on your farrier too. Be willing to allow a few breaks if the work is going to require several hours.
Don't feed your horse or other horses in the area when the farrier is working. Doing so will agitate your horse and make the work much more difficult.
Don't feed treats to your horse while the farrier is working.
Don't groom your horse while the farrier is working.
Don't be afraid to ask questions.
Pay your bill when the work is done. If you need to float a check, let the farrier know before he comes to your farm.
Tips are always appreciated but are not necessary or expected.
Young children in the work area is a safety hazard! So are dogs, ducks, chickens, goats and other pets.
Either discipline your horse when he needs it or allow the farrier to do it in your behalf. There's no reason to ever abuse a horse but it is negligent and irresponsible to allow a 1,000 pound animal to present a safety risk to a human being. A light nudge or slap is not going to injure your horse but it may prevent serious injury to the farrier or the handler.
Does that help?

Cheers,
Mark


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## Gluey33 (Jun 2, 2008)

Mark you forgot how much farriers appreciate coffee and cream cakes lol

But your right those are all very important considerations.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

Firstly, Horseman, I agree with much of what you have said... over the last few posts. Good points about finding a good farrier too. I find many can talk the talk, but have trouble with the walk:lol: or vice versa - some good farriers seem to be unwilling or able to answer questions & educate their owners. I think both is important. I also believe that none of us, 'expert' or otherwise has all the answers, and I tend to respect an 'expert' for admitting when they don't know or are unsure about something more than those who seem to have all the answers.

Obviously there are a fair few points that we have very different views on too. I am more than happy to discuss these points, because I for one am in it for the horse, so strive to keep openminded to whatever may be best. I just ask that you communicate your views respectfully & reasonably, remembering that just because they're your views, doesn't mean there isn't just the tiniest chance they could be incorrect, or not so black and white as you think... and even if they were, putting down people of different views and not even providing good reasons for your 'judgements' isn't really conductive of getting your views across anyway. 

So, respectfully addressing a few bits here, that hopefully help relevant people like OP to better understand, but perhaps to do more that that on the topic is to hijack their thread too much



Horseman56 said:


> I often hear the argument that it will take many sessions to effect any significant redress of problems in a horses feet.... Personally, I prefer to deliver the best work I can during that first visit instead of "milking" the customer via some fictional need to tend a horses feet every two or three weeks. Even if it's a horse to be left barefoot.


So which is it - that you can miraculously fix any problem in the first visit, or that you're accusing anyone that can't as well as you of not doing their best work in order to dupe clients?? To say that is not only offensive but illogical. You seem to believe any trimming more frequently than - what? 6-8 weeks? is 'fictional' and anyone who would advise it more frequently is in it to dupe clients. 



> It's no easy task for the horse owner to separate the wheat from the chaff in this industry. That task is made more difficult by the lack of any accreditation standards requirements.


Yeah in Oz it's completely unregulated. There are many 'backyard' farriers & trimmers, and good courses available are generally lacking. That's not to say either that 'backyard' - meaning people without formal training - farriers are necessarily bad at all, or that formally trained farriers are necessarily good for that matter... Check out the Australian College of Equine Podiotherapy for one good course.


> Again, there is no such thing as a "farrier trim". It's a label adopted by the barefoot movement to suggest that farriers will generally trim a foot completely flat, as in preparation for shoes, even when the horse is intended to be left barefoot. It's a misleading suggestion at best as no competent farrier does this.
> 
> Scooping the quarters is a poor practice at best and, as a practice, has it roots in three sources.


IME - & it seems many others - many (otherwise good:?:twisted farriers do believe in trimming a foot flat, so you may have just offended them too. But what you say seems contradictory - do you believe it's incompetent to leave a foot flat or do you believe it not being flat is incompetent? Have you considered that perhaps your perception(perhaps thru bad trimmer/trimming examples) of certain practices may not even represent 'good practice' in anyone's opinion? I don't think it's fair or sensible to be labelling practices & beliefs other than your own as 'incompetent' etc. Not only is it rude, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you don't know everything. I certainly don't & I think it's a widespread problem I think that perhaps you don't understand the principles behind such practices. If you do, and have respectful arguments against them, I'm all ears, as my focus is on the best interests of the horse, whatever that may be. 



> Inexperienced practitioners will often "scoop" the quarters because they are following the sole plane with their nippers. The sole plane on many horses tends to dip through the heel quarters.


Not just novices. Why do you suppose that the horse's hoof 'dips' through the quarters? What is the purpose of it? Why do you suppose that flat trimmed barefoot horses(& many shod) break away and flare & crack at the quarters so much? I personally think sole plane is a pretty good guide for balance. Every horse is an individual in this regard, as with any other, and I also think it depends on the terrain/environment as to whether to, or how much to 'scoop'.



> In short, gutting (scooping) the quarters of the horses foot reduces the total surface area of the distal wall in contact with the ground and creates a distorted solar weight bearing surface.


Agree with your first point... assuming the horse were standing on flat concrete, not so much when moving, or when standing on uneven, yielding ground. I don't understand how you mean it 'distorts the solar surface'?



> The result is an increase per square unit measure of load pressure and distortion forces applied across the reduced weight bearing surface.


Again, increased per inch *of the walls when standing on a flat surface*, I agree.



> It is a common practice of barefoot trimmers to label every instance of growth rings as an indicator of previous laminitic activity. They are wrong more often than not. The "rings" in your horses foot are more likely a complex history of minor metabolic disruptions in the coronary corium from which the horn tubules emerge


Perhaps the definition of laminitis is what is at question here. Perhaps it's also the degree of your definition -ie it's only laminitis when there are clinical symptom? I don't pretend to know enough to say something like every instance of rings & ridges was definitely from laminitis, but if we view laminitis as any inflammation causing damage to the corium/laminae, then the rings do indeed originate there, from minor or otherwise metabolic 'disruptions', which IMO I think is likely the big cause of lami.



> To suggest that shod horses "should always be given regular periods out of shoes for their feet to rest" is misleading and disingenuous.


Yes, 2 points there that I agree on - always.... I am usually more careful not to use that word & instead prefer 'generally', because IMO there are always (there it is, but warranted this time!:lol exceptions to the 'rules'. The word 'rest' wasn't really the appropriate word, but in the middle of the night, when I didn't need to go into further explanations...



> Wall growth occurs at the coronary. The keratinized, cross-linked protein cells below the coronary are dead. There is no "health" to be maintained.


Wall growth also occurs at the laminae on the proximal surface, it seems. But the outer wall is from the coronet & not live down further. One reason for 'feeding' the hooves by feeding the horse, rather than bothering with goop on the outside.



> The farrier will dress the walls in an effort to maintain that straight line growth which yields optimal structural integrity to the capsule. The shape of the capsule should remain uniform as it originates at the coronary and should be maintained through the entire length of the foot.


You mean that you 'dress' the flare at the wall surface & take off as much as is necessary to make it straight? I think that can/should be done to a degree, but depending on specifics, this may weaken the protection of the walls if done too much. I also think that depending on specifics again, the (now further weakened) wall may still be under just as much ground pressure, so may perpetuate the separation. I personally think it's most effective to address the flare from the ground surface, and that dressing from the top is largely(not only) cosmetic. There's also the question of ski-tip coffin bones to add to the confusion...



> Wish I had a foolproof method to offer you. I don't. Learn all you can about what proper farriery (barefoot or shod) should at least look like, even if you don't fully understand all of the mechanical details.
> 
> You don't need the motor skills of the farrier to understand the basic concepts. You can acquire those concepts from any quality farrier textbook. While expensive, it would be a one time cost that would last you a lifetime. A good example of such a book would be "Gregory's Textbook of Farriery", just released this year.


:thumbsupitto. Educating yourself the best you can is my best advice. Not only in order to find & have some idea about the skill of a farrier, but because there are differences of opinions even amongst the well studied 'experts' that you need to understand in order to make your own opinions about, and most importantly, because there are many factors that influence the health & soundness of a horse other than trimming & whether to shoe or not. IMO virtually every different approach will work sometimes, and virtually every approach will have at least a 'con' or 2, so it's about learning the principles, pros & cons & then trying to come to your own informed decision. I wouldn't just stop at one book by far - that is, one opinion, but learn from a wide variety.


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

loosie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Firstly, Horseman, I agree with much of what you have said... over the last few posts....


Loosie, I'll keep this simple and to the point.

I'm a professional, full service farrier. I am intimately familiar with most of the popularized barefoot movement credo's, practices and arguments. I am very familiar with Dr. Bowker's work, Dr. Strasser's work, Pete Ramey, and the half dozen other proponents and foundation mainstays of the barefoot movement.

I've debated/argued/discussed to death the topic on various internet forums, seminars, clinics and with horse owners. It's not a topic I choose to invest in further.

The singular most popular farrier forum in the world is horseshoes.com. Some of the best farriers in the world participate there. 

Some time ago, the forum owner made the correct decision to effectively ban barefoot trimmers from actively participating in any "farriers helping farriers" or "farrier's helping horse owners" forum categories. The singular exception was a thread dedicated to keeping a horse barefoot. Even in that thread, the forum owner will not tolerate anyone engaging in the BUA only mantra. Again, he came to this decision with good reason.

The barefoot movement has proven to be a significant distraction to horse owners seeking serious assistance in managing and maintaining the distal limb health of their animals. This movement is fraught with innuendo, misleading junk science and replete with practitioners who routinely demonstrate very little credible training or experience. 

Horse owners seeking professional council on horseshoes.com often found their threads de-railed over ridiculous and seemingly endless arguments and debates over whether their horse should be shod or barefoot. 

Given that the vast majority of barefoot trimmers engaging in commercial practice have training and experience that is often far less than a first year farrier apprentice, it was considered beyond ridiculous to allow such practitioners to engage in what is effectively disruptive forum council to other farriers and horse owners.

In other words, on the advice of veterinarians, researchers and professional farriers around the world, horseshoes.com gave the boot to the snake-oil drama and nonsense propagated by the "barefoot only brigade".

While an unsavory and sometimes unpopular decision, it was the right thing to do for the industry and more importantly, for horse owners in need of serious help.

For similar reasons, I simply will not engage "barefoot only" practitioners in serious debate on public forums. It is a waste of time and does not serve the best interests of the horse owning public. To do so would appear to lend credibility to barefoot practitioners. 

The art and science of farriery is serious business. We are ultimately responsible for the soundness and health of horses that often mean the world, either personally or financially, to their owners. It is not a place for charlatans, the inexperienced or the weekend warrior that got their training and "certification" from some matchbook, 2-day trimming course or some photo contest at the AANHCP. 

Tell you what. You go invest a few years in serious training and apprenticeship. You invest $30,000 in education and equipment. You go trim and shoe a few thousand horses. Do all that, then come back to me and tell me about your "barefoot is better" position. Maybe then we'll have something to discuss. 

Until then, you're just another trimmer with a "story" that most professionals in this industry already know for the bunk it is. 

Do I perform "miracles in one visit"? Nope... but I can apply years of hard training and experience that will often yield immediate, positive results while the barefoot trimmer is still trying to sell the owner on some nonsense about the "feral horse", "proper hoof function", "mustang rolls", "transition periods", "tea tree oil", "proper diet" and all the other crap intended to distract the owner from realizing that, at the end of the day, you can't fix their horse!

Sorry, but that dog don't hunt in the big leagues and I'm not going to waste time trying to teach it.

Cheers,
Mark


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Hugs Mike way too hard for his amazing posts!!!!!!!




Horseman56 said:


> While not perfect, I've found the AFA (American Farrier's Association) to represent the most credible source of practicing farriers.


Though I know of one less than qualified farrier who is a member that gets pats on the back by the organization because he is friends with important people there.

It is a good place to start, but do your home work too. Ask around of other people actually using that farrier. Go look at the feet of the horses done by that farrier too. 
It is worth your time and energy to carefully pick your hoof care provider.

Once you find one, treat them well. Have your horse ready. Pay on time. Have cold drinks in the summer, hot drinks in the winter, etc.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I am sitting here laughing a little because my BF is a farrier and the recommendations of how to treat one. 

I will have to get back to the comments or suggestions later. 

This is what I have seen and what Anvil has gone through. 

1. Many people who schedule a trim or shoeing are not there or won't be there when he is ready to do his job. But they tell him to just go ahead and get the horse out and get it done. Especially when the animal is just not cooperating. 
I don't think any farrier should have to waste time trying to calm the animal down or hunt down fly spray to control the flies.

2. When they are not there and he has to shoe a horse, if a problem arises he has to stop what he's doing and either call the owner or just do his best to fix the problem. Which in many cases the owner will tell him to just continue the work. Then they get mad because something wasn't done right.

3. I agree with the not feeding the horse while your trimming or shoeing. Very distracting. Horse gets more irritated when it can't continue to eat. 

4. I believe that if a persons horse has a hard time holding their feet up or having work done on them that the owner is responsible to make sure their horse is prepared or close to prepared before the farrier comes out. Luckily most farriers only get paid for the job needed not the time they have to spend correcting someones horse. So be thankful. 

I'm sure there is more. But this is what I've seen happen more than it should.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

On the other side of that coin - my farrier has been known to call me and ask if he can do my horses now because he finished another job in my area so he has free time. He knows I can not just get there (if I left work I would be showing up about the time he finished them). He has no problem dealing with all three horses on his own.

When BF was learning to have her feet done, feeding her was his idea. She was a yearling that had never worn a halter and never had her feet touched. They were in dire need of trimming. I suggested drugs, he wanted to give her a chance with out drugs. It worked out well. (We obviously do not feed her for trims any more, that was just the first few times.)


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Always, I won't argue that at all. There are instances when certain things need to be done to get the job done. I agree with you fully on the unexpected call that a farrier has time and the owner doesn't. As long as the farrier is willing to deal with the animal and knows the horse/s are an easy job. 

And if the farrier is ok with feeding the horse while getting worked on, all for it. What ever works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I admit, the feeding thing was extenuating circumstances.

I can only imagine the nightmare of trying to get the farrier and the vet there at the same time if you want to use tranquilizers. :shock:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> I just ask that you communicate your views respectfully & reasonably, remembering that just because they're your views, doesn't mean there isn't just the tiniest chance they could be incorrect, or not so black and white as you think...



From everything I read Mark was completely respectful and informative. I for one am very grateful that he has arrived here!


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

Go Alex 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

StormvaleQHStud said:


> Go Alex
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Laugh not meaning to fuel a fight, but I am thrilled that we have a great farrier posting here - and I would hate to see him run off. 


Mark, if you have a second, I have a question. 

I am English, but have lived in the US for 10 years, had horses for the past 5 of those, but always had horses in England. 



> Ask the farrier if he hot shapes and hot fits shoes.


I am really pleased with my farrier, I went through 4 different farriers trying to find one who knew what he/she was doing. In my somewhat uneducated opinion, my guy does a great job. 

My farrier hot shapes my horses shoes, but does not hot shoe, as in onto the horses hoof, (sorry I don't know the correct terms). I am used to hot shoeing in England. My current guy says it is not needed, but in England it is done as the norm. 

Can you please explain why it is not the norm to do that here? Or if it is something that I should be concerned about that he says it is not needed. 

Thanks
Alex


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

Horseman56 said:


> Finally, there is a method called the 4-point trim.


So you don't agree w/ Dr. Reddin's observation that the four point trim results in the proliferation of sole?




> That methodology was largely debunked in a study provided by Dr. Michael Miller, MD, CFJ, FWCF in his book "The mirage of the Natural Foot".


Though I've not yet had the chance to read the book, I'll ask him directly when I see him next month.




> In short, gutting (scooping) the quarters of the horses foot reduces the total surface area of the distal wall in contact with the ground and creates a distorted solar weight bearing surface.


Are you sure the solar suface wasn't allready distorted?




> The result is an increase per square unit measure of load pressure and distortion forces applied across the reduced weight bearing surface.


Are you sure there isn't a reduction of distortion forces?




> Honestly, it's not such a good point. To suggest that shod horses "should always be given regular periods out of shoes for their feet to rest" is misleading and disingenuous.
> 
> A horses feet do not require "rest" as a consequence of proper shoeing. There are certainly valid reasons to leave a horse barefoot but "rest" isn't one of them.


Do you not agree that a properly shod foot will widen after being bare for a period of time? 


As to your thoughts on trimming, you've also left me wondering if you trim flat when leaving one bare or not. 

As for addressing distortion, I'm also left to wonder. You may enjoy Tabb Pigg's thoughts on this. I know, he works for Vet Tech, but he's also a CJF.

Where'd you go to schooland where'd you do your apprenticeship?

How long you been shoein'?


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

Actually everything you have said bntnails makes sense seeing as I have just had the farrier out today and I go with him during the rounds to show him where to go coz I got him his clients and we are all impressed with his work. Are you saying Horseman that it's bad to "scoop" a sole and you prefer to leave it flat? My farrier says it makes the walks stronger and less likely to crack because the horse has a healthy amount of heel so therefore is not such a flat sole to make the walls weaker and crack? Come to think of it I have seen horses that have flat soles as opposed to mine that crack because they have no heel and a flat sole so therefore the wall is weakened and may/maynot have flaring. But a week later they are all chipping a hell of a lot. Where as my 5 horses have a good amount of heel, sole is not flat (but also he will not scoop it out every time if it's not needed to correct the bars that time etc) and they can actually last right up to the 6week mark and not have a single chip in them and I have a lot of rocky ground I have to ride in. And I read somewhere that it does indeed depend on where the horse is located as to how the hoof will naturally evolve if the are in fairly rocky ground then the hoof grows so as to protect the frog from getting stones etc in it and to prevent bruising where as a horse located in wetter less rockier conditions will have a hoof that evolves to soak up the water and the frog is more closer to the ground and have a lot flatter feet? Thanks. I think this is a great post everyone seems to be learning...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> Laugh not meaning to fuel a fight, but I am thrilled that we have a great farrier posting here - and I would hate to see him run off.


Ha ha, no running off here, but 'a' great farrier? I think there may be others on the list also...


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> Ha ha, no running off here, but 'a' great farrier? I think there may be others on the list also...


I said 'a' not 'only'. 
You are 'a' barefoot proponent you are not the 'only' barefoot proponent here.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm equally impressed by both "methods" here but I have to say that what Loosie says gets a huge kudos from me. Not trying to chase anyone off either. I think there are exceptions to every rule and I happen to have on. Without being flexible you cannot fully understand what needs to be done.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Shadomoon said:


> Without being flexible you cannot fully understand what needs to be done.


I totally agree, and that is my biggest issue with the people who preach barefoot is the answer to all.

Which has been my experience with the barefoot trimmers here (and on other forums).


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Shadomoon said:


> Without being flexible you cannot fully understand what needs to be done.


I'm in complete agreement with that, and if I wanted my horse barefoot, I would have my qualified farrier do a nice trim for me.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

AlexS said:


> I would have my qualified farrier do a nice trim for me.


Yepper! My farrier does a great job with my barefoot horses.

And heck, your farrier has to do a great trim even if they are putting shoes on.....


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

Oh hell bnt ( :wink: ), you and Zon were supposed to manage the battle over on horsetopia! 



bntnail said:


> So you don't agree w/ Dr. Reddin's observation that the four point trim results in the proliferation of sole?


 Didn't question Doc Redden's assertion in this particular area but since you brought the subject up, no I'm not entirely convinced that a 4-point trim, in and of itself (or by itself) will "always" result in sole proliferation in "all" horses. Now add a roller motion shoe with appropriate mechanics and solar support and we might have a different discussion.

But that's not the point, is it? We'd have to start by determining if it's Redden's trim or Ovnicek's NB version. Then we'll need to mix in variations/observations/theories on the trim theme as noted by Pollitt, Pethick, Savoldi, Bowker, LaPierre, Bergeleen, Jackson, Duckett, Taimuty, Emery, Van Hoosen, Russel, Lungwitz and anyone else you'd care to cite.

At the end of the day we'll find that we're left with what Dr. Miller so eloquently said, that being...

*"A single ideal fails to explain function and morphology in ALL feet". * ​
Or more to the point... "what happens if it rains?". :roll:

Hence the problem with the "feral model" or any other model you want to apply. We can change the environment and alter the presumed outcome of just about any trim methodology you want to choose. 

But... you already knew that, didn't you? 



> Though I've not yet had the chance to read the book, I'll ask him directly when I see him next month.


It's a one evening read and worth the investment. _Controlled _studies are tough to come by in the farriery world and Doc Mike's is one of the better examples.



> Are you sure the solar suface wasn't allready distorted?
> 
> Are you sure there isn't a reduction of distortion forces?


What solar surface? At issue was the generalized application of a methodology; not the anecdotal experience of a single horse. Don't go BUA on me!

As to "reduction of distortion forces", one could easily argue that Wolff's law of bone adaptation is based on the same dead greek physics as that which governs the plastic response of the equine hoof capsule. 

Given a constant load force, any increase in total surface area over which that load is distributed will reduce the scalar magnitude of that force per square unit of measure. Conversely, reduce the load bearing surface area and that same force per square unit of measure will increase. 



> Do you not agree that a properly shod foot will widen after being bare for a period of time?


To quote the gentleman farrier from Illinios, "It Depends!". 



> As to your thoughts on trimming, you've also left me wondering if you trim flat when leaving one bare or not.


Two thoughts. First, "flat relative to what?". Second, "It depends".



> As for addressing distortion, I'm also left to wonder. You may enjoy Tabb Pigg's thoughts on this. I know, he works for Vet Tech, but he's also a CJF.


Tab is a hell of a farrier and I don't think his employment at Vettek is a factor.



> Where'd you go to schooland where'd you do your apprenticeship?


Hell Bnt, I thought we both graduated from the same weekend warrior trimmer class and apprenticed with the Amish! How quickly a person forgets good times!

I get it though. You want me to travel to Colorado and apprentice with Gene and Patty Stiller, don't you?



> How long you been shoein'?


Today's my first day.

By the way, I know where you earned your PCH!! Even though I'm not worthy, tell Jaye I said hi.

Oh, and good to see you here. Now go respond to the OP about her horse.

Cheers,
Mark


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Mark, if you have a second, I have a question.
> 
> I am English, but have lived in the US for 10 years, had horses for the past 5 of those, but always had horses in England.


Welcome to the States. 




> I am really pleased with my farrier, I went through 4 different farriers trying to find one who knew what he/she was doing. In my somewhat uneducated opinion, my guy does a great job.


Coming from England I can understand why it may have taken some time to find a farrier that met your expectations. The UK system of farrier education sets the bar higher than that found here in the States.

It is a personal frustration to me that many first year UK apprentices have strong skill at the anvil than I do, but I keep trying anyway.



> My farrier hot shapes my horses shoes, but does not hot shoe, as in onto the horses hoof, (sorry I don't know the correct terms). I am used to hot shoeing in England. My current guy says it is not needed, but in England it is done as the norm.


My comment was just an example of things an owner might look for in a farrier. If your farrier doesn't think your horse needs to be hot fit, he's probably right. Whether hot shaped or hot fit, the point is that a farrier who owns and uses a forge is likely to possess/practice skills that exceed those of a cold banging iron hanger. There's nothing wrong with shoeing cold but the farrier should bring multiple tools to the table.



> Can you please explain why it is not the norm to do that here? Or if it is something that I should be concerned about that he says it is not needed.


I don't know what the "norm" is or even if there is one. Every horse is different with different needs. If your farrier has the skill to hot shape and hot fit but in your case doesn't see the need, he's probably right.



> Thanks
> Alex


You're welcome.

Cheers,
Mark


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks Mark, I appreciate you taking the time to answer me. 
I am actually a little disappointed that my horse doesn't need the hot fit, that smell is one of my favorite smells!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

AlexS said:


> that smell is one of my favorite smells!


:shock:
You actually like the burning hair smell (that is how I describe it, it smells just like burning hair)?

My farrier hot shoes. I could do with out the smell.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

AB, I love it! I don't think it smells like burning hair though. But it's one of those smells from my childhood. 


As we are talking about barefoot vs shoeing somewhat. I'd like to share my barefoot trimmer experience from a consumers point of view. 

I wasn't happy with my previous farrier, so I thought I would try a barefoot natural trimmer. This lady came highly recommended and had much success with a horse with white line issues that the previous farrier (one I was not happy with) was unable to improve. 

So I had my horse clean and prepared in the barn, when she pulled up I put him in the cross ties and rechecked his picked feet as he had been in his stall while we waited for her. 

She said that she would rather trim him in his paddock with the other horses as he would be 'more comfortable there'. Fine I take him out, and hold him as he wants to wander off and be with the other horses who were in the same paddock. Then of course the other horses are all about him. So I am holding my horse while trying to shoo off the others. 

The poor girl had such a hard time pulling his shoes, I offer to do it for her. She declined, but did charge me a boat load extra for the shoe removal. 

I was scratching my horses neck (his favorite thing) to relax him and distract him from the other horses as the last shoe was pulled. Due to my scratching, he lowered his neck and was licking and chewing. The barefoot trimmer informed me this was because he approved of the shoes being pulled and was happy. 

My horse was lame until I could find a new farrier and get shoes put back on him.

I realize that she is only one barefoot trimmer, but she was kooky and I will leave my horses feet to farriers with qualifications that I trust in future.


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## StormvaleQHStud (Dec 16, 2010)

Sorry Mark my previous comment was for you. Just a little curious 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

AlexS said:


> She said that she would rather trim him in his paddock with the other horses as he would be 'more comfortable there'. Fine I take him out, and hold him as he wants to wander off and be with the other horses who were in the same paddock. Then of course the other horses are all about him. So I am holding my horse while trying to shoo off the others.


Ha, might as well set a bucket of grain just out of his reach while you're at it 

My experience has left me more in favor of barefoot trimmers mostly because we happen to have a trimmer who is very talented (and boards at our barn) and a farrier who isn't 

I'm starting to think it's a good thing that my lease requires shoes, since it's forcing me to seek out a more qualified farrier and see what it's like when the farrier knows what he's doing!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Horseman56 said:


> Thanks for the flowers. :wink:
> 
> There are good questions to ask and there are questions that probably shouldn't be asked! Here's a few tips that might help.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mark! I think this may be Sticky Worthy to whatever Mod is looking on.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

See my experience is the opposite with farriers and trimmers. Though I'll say I've had an equal dose of kooky with both. But I'll take my barefoot trimmer over any farrier any day of the week. Why? Partly because we are very similar in what we want for my horse. Partly because any farrier that has looked at him has ruined him further. And partly because he doesn't need shoes (despite the claim of every farrier I've met). I know a bit about mechanics and know shoes and his conformation will not solve anything. That being said, I also said I've had an equal dose of failures with both. My current trimmer is OUTSTANDING and I wouldn't trade her for the world. I trust her because this is the first time he has ever NOT been lame. I give her the freedom to do what she needs (based on his x-rays and conformation) to get him where he will be completely sound. And so far she is the only one to do it. That says something to me. This horse was off all the time, now he hasn't been off once since this trimmer got at him. So I think it says a lot to me.

But I'm not going to say every horse needs a barefoot trimmer. Whoever you use as long as you and your horse are happy and sound, then there is no reason to question it. Though in my preference, barefoot is the way to go. But not every horse can be barefoot. 

Always be open to the possibilities.


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

Horseman56 said:


> Oh hell bnt ( :wink: ), you and Zon were supposed to manage the battle over on horsetopia!
> 
> Yada,yada,yada,
> 
> ...


Naw, I'll go back to horsetopia and pound rocks.:lol:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

bntnail said:


> Naw, I'll go back to horsetopia and pound rocks.:lol:


Why not pass your opinion on the OPs situation bntnails?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> I realize that she is only one barefoot trimmer, but she was kooky and I will leave my horses feet to farriers with qualifications that I trust in future.


I've had more than a few bad experience with farriers, and a couple with trimmers when I was pregnant & couldn't do my own. Maybe I should draw the conclusion all hoof care practitioners are bad.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> You are 'a' barefoot proponent you are not the 'only' barefoot proponent here.


The 'jib' about your 'a' good farrier was a joke. Am I a 'barefoot proponent? OK. I wouldn't have said so, but what does that mean to you? I am *generally* in favour of not shoeing a horse in most situations, but I don't personally think bare is best... in many situations.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^^^^^^^


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> Maybe I should draw the conclusion all hoof care practitioners are bad.


We seem to be having a communication fail Loosie, as you didn't seem to understand my previous comment that 'a farrier' does not mean 'all farriers' either. 

I believe I said that 'I realize she is only one barefoot trimmer' meaning that obviously not all are the same as her. 
I don't think I ever said 'all natural trimmers are bad', I did imply that she (that one woman herself) was pretty dire. 

However since she left my horse lame, I did realize that qualifications are probably more important than being able to talk a good game. And for future I will stick to qualifications that I trust. 

Maybe one day, barefoot trimmers will be qualified to a higher level. If that were to happen, I would consider it for a horse that could go barefoot. Until then, I will stick to the farriers who I believe have an education that means something to me. As a consumer I have this right to chose. 

As we don't seem to communicate well, let me try to give you an example. 
I live in an area with a lot of Amish people, so there is no shortage of farriers. 

Obviously the Amish are around horses a lot, but does that mean that every one knows how to trim or shoe well even if they have been doing it for a while? Also it as clearly means that there are a lot of Amish guys with a lot of skill.

However I am not going to hire a farrier purely because he is Amish, that would be ridiculous - he would need to have some qualifications to show me how he was trained and what he knows. 

My horse is important to me, I don't want to see him gimping because I failed him by employing the wrong person.

I fail to see why you are trying (badly) to pick apart my comments rather than dealing with the issues that you seem to know the most about. Maybe because I said that Mark was being respectful? 
I usually stay out of the shoe v's barefoot debates as it never seems to go very well - however I was interested in this conversation, as it is refreshing to hear the other side of the debate, and that has been lacking here, in my opinion. If the best that you can do is try to pick apart my words, then it might be smarter to rethink and try to add something to the conversation instead.


ETA 



loosie said:


> The 'jib' about your 'a' good farrier was a joke.


You are making the same 'jib' again. With 'all hoof care practitioners'


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

loosie said:


> ^^^^^^^


:shock:

No idea of the purpose of this post. Double post just to point up at your current post?



You say that you are not one of those barefoot zealots here but the theme of the vast majority of your posts say otherwise. If being a barefoot only zealot is not the impression you are trying to give you might want to rethink what you post.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> I believe I said that 'I realize she is only one barefoot trimmer'


You missed the point. I know you said the above, but it was that you thought it was relevant to tell a story about one trimmer & you've drawn conclusions from that one experience.



> I fail to see why you are trying (badly) to pick apart my comments rather than dealing with the issues that you seem to know the most about. Maybe because I said that Mark was being respectful?


Well, yes, obviously my idea of respectful debate/discussion is very different to yours, if you still think that:?. I'm not 'picking' on you personally though, just that you made comments that I wanted to respond to. I probably shouldn't have tried to make a joke, as I've already learned jokes & sarcasm don't work well on forums!



> refreshing to hear the other side of the debate, and that has been lacking here, in my opinion. If the best that you can do is try to pick apart my words, then it might be smarter to rethink and try to add something to the conversation instead.


I agree it is refreshing when there's a *sensible* discussion or debate from 'the other side' - for eg, I think bnt & I had a reasonable discussion some time back. I am indeed replying to this Mark, but I have little time & your little comments keep popping up, that I have time for short answers for!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> You say that you are not one of those barefoot zealots here but the theme of the vast majority of your posts say otherwise. If being a barefoot only zealot is not the impression you are trying to give you might want to rethink what you post.


OK, fair point. I *generally*:wink: make a point of ensuring people know that most of what I write is generalising. I *generally* think that the cons of conventional shoes outweight the pros for most applications. I have said that I don't think shoes are always a bad idea in certain circumstances. I have always emphasised the importance of learning & considering different approaches, staying openminded and making informed decisions on whatever may be best for the particular horse.... so please explain where I've come across as a 'barefoot zealot'?


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Why not pass your opinion on the OPs situation bntnails?


Been covered, anything more would be speculation w/o foot in hand.:wink:


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Mark, if you have a second, I have a question.


Not Mark, but will add to his answer. 



> My farrier hot shapes my horses shoes, but does not hot shoe, as in onto the horses hoof, (sorry I don't know the correct terms). I am used to hot shoeing in England. My current guy says it is not needed, but in England it is done as the norm.
> 
> Can you please explain why it is not the norm to do that here? Or if it is something that I should be concerned about that he says it is not needed.
> 
> ...


May have some to do w/ tradition, but may also be due to environment. Feet in wetter environments seem to fair better when hot fit. Feet in more arid environments seem to need less "help".


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks Bntnail, that makes sense.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

loosie said:


> OK, fair point. I *generally*:wink: make a point of ensuring people know that most of what I write is generalising. I *generally* think that the cons of conventional shoes outweight the pros for most applications. I have said that I don't think shoes are always a bad idea in certain circumstances. I have always emphasised the importance of learning & considering different approaches, staying openminded and making informed decisions on whatever may be best for the particular horse.... so please explain where I've come across as a 'barefoot zealot'?


This particular paragraph does not make you seem that way. Look at the vast majority of your posts on this BB and you will easily see how you could come off as part of the barefoot is the only way to go crowd.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> This particular paragraph does not make you seem that way. Look at the vast majority of your posts on this BB and you will easily see how you could come off as part of the barefoot is the only way to go crowd.


I would happily go along with being labled part of the 'shoeless is generally best crowd', but as I do make a point of emphasising generalisations & that I don't think 'never' to shoes, that I don't believe it's reasonable to expect that any horse in any domestic situation can or should go bare in every situation....., I don't know that I can do any more to make people actually consider those bits & not assume whatever they will. I think that's the nature of text communication - we all miss & misconstrue bits & assume stuff of others that is unsaid. I think it's a good idea to always keep that in mind when we're reading/replying to stuff.

-------------------
Now finally to the points Mark made... Boy mark, from your original posts sounding mainly sensible, you've lost me with so many arguments and assumptions that seem just silly, irrational, or ill informed to me. I apologise to OP that it's a bit o/t but I do feel it's important to give my take on the assumptions and accusations made. Addressing them just as they came.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Minor chipping at the quarters is a common consequence of a barefoot horse


Chipping more at the quarters IME is not actually a common consequence of barefoot horses, unless the walls are particularly weak – shelly, disconnected, infected – or they have become overlong or imbalanced and aren't 'rolled'. But this leads me to ask, why do you suppose horses who are trimmed flat have such a tendency to chip & break out at the quarters, if they're meant to be flat? 



> As to "Pete Ramey - style natural trimmers"... don't get too caught up in the "barefoot movement". The vast majority of what you'll read/hear has more to do with marketing than proper farriery practices.... When the only tool you bring to the table is a trim, everything looks like a trim and you better sell the heck out of the idea that all horses should be barefoot at all times.


You're sure a 'glass half empty' kind of guy aren't you?? There are probably many sheisters & people in it for the money in any industry, and many good ones too. I don't believe it's a reasonable accusation for you to make, unless you're going to add something like 'the majority I've had experience with' or some such. Ie don't tar all with the same brush, especially when you don't even seem to know much about it. For one, if you reckon all PR 'brings' is trimming and that he recommends all horses should be bare all the time, there's 2 things you're mistaken in what you think you 'intimately know' about him. 



> Woody's hind feet problems are a consequence of load forces applied in an imbalanced manner. While trimming can better assist in these problems, a pair of properly fit, supportive shoes can more quickly address the loading problems.


  My experience is that in these type situations, if talking conventional rims, I feel that keeping the horse unshod is best. I think it's more appropriate to *relieve *the excess pressure causing the flare, not further load the walls. Another point for the owner educating herself & weighing up the pros & cons, to come to her own decision on our - & other - opinions.
 



> You can't just rasp off all of that flare. The result would be excessive thinning of the wall, compromising it structurally.


  Couldn't agree more, but it appears to contradict another you made, where you seemed to say that flares etc could & should be 'fixed' in one fell swoop(implying unlike what 'barefoot' trimmers could/would do).  



> I've debated/argued/discussed to death the topic on various internet forums, seminars, clinics and with horse owners. It's not a topic I choose to invest in further.


Oh, funny way of showing you don't want to 'invest further', by just bagging other approaches. BTW, what's a 'BUA & BUA only Mantra'? 



> The barefoot movement has proven to be a significant distraction to horse owners seeking serious assistance in managing and maintaining the distal limb health of their animals. This movement is fraught with innuendo, misleading junk science and replete with practitioners who routinely demonstrate very little credible training or experience.


 I agree that there are a fair few trimmers that don't do shoes(I don't know of many that are part of any particular 'movement') that have little training or experience. I would add to the 'significant distraction' that it has also proven to be a significant solution for a lot of situations where conventional approaches have failed and has helped to make horse owners significantly more aware and interested in learning about their horse's feet.

Also agree there is a lot of hazy, misconstrued(not purposely misleading IMO) 'science' and still way too little actual good, sound studies done. However that's by no means just confined to the 'shoeless' side of the fence, as you imply. Farriery is not exempt(as seems evident to all by OP's example). That's why I think it's so important for owners to educate themselves, not just blindly trust their farrier OR trimmer(or whatever other 'expert'), but make *informed* decisions & opinions. As for innuendo, I think in between your advice, you've given some great examples of this 'art'!



> For similar reasons, I simply will not engage "barefoot only" practitioners in serious debate on public forums. It is a waste of time and does not serve the best interests of the horse owning public. To do so would appear to lend credibility to barefoot practitioners.


 I think it's effectively the same on either side of the 'fence', where some(as you come across) take their point of view to an almost religious zeal... and come up against other fanatics over the border... kind of like expecting the Taliban & some fanatical Christian sect to have a constructive chat about their differences! May blow your mind to consider that perhaps as all farriers(or Muslims, for that matter) aren't Taliban material, neither are 'barefooters' or Christians all fanatical blind followers. To 'simply not engage' with anyone you *assume* may be an opposing zealot(or worse, ridicule them), actually 'lends' far more 'credibility' to their serious ideas, questions, or advice & less to yours. Because if you don't bother spending any effort in rational discussion but you're happy to go to lengths to attack the opposition, this tends to imply there's not much aside from hot air in your sails.

I went to that forum you speak of years ago, when I knew little & was(still am of course) wanting to learn more & come to an objective idea about the whole shoes/bare thing. I asked a few questions, respectfully, genuinely interested in professional farrier's answers & advice, in learning whatever was best for the horse, but I only got a heap of rude noises, effectively saying how stupid my beliefs were(what they assumed them to be at any rate – I said very little & didn't actually even have any real firm convictions back then anyway) and that my questions didn't deserve answers, that I was only there to 'stir the pot' or some such. This left me feeling that perhaps if not one of them was interested in discussing it rationally, well perhaps there was no rationality to be had – that they were being aggressive to protect opinions that couldn't be justified.

I actually started suspecting that farriers generally were fanatical idiots with big opinions of themselves after that. Thankfully since then, I've come across some truly good farriers who have been willing to 'engage' and have educated me on their 'side of the coin'. 



> Tell you what. You go invest a few years in serious training and apprenticeship. You invest $30,000 in education and equipment. You go trim and shoe a few thousand horses. Do all that, then come back to me and tell me about your "barefoot is better" position. Maybe then we'll have something to discuss.


 Mate, did you even ask me if I was your perceived 'weekend warrior'??:evil: This only leads me to suspect(assuming your other comments didn't already) that your comments about other people & specifics may just be as wild & unfounded as those you have made about me.... 

For _other's_ information, I have indeed invested a lot of time & money into my education and have been practicing this 'barefoot' stuff, as you call it, for about a decade now. I don't know how may thousand horses I've trimmed, but there've been a fair few over the years & I _now_ think that *generally* speaking, shoeless is definitely better... not that I've got any notions about knowing it all, as you appear to. IMO there's not nearly enough science to think that anyway. 

Regarding training & experience, I wonder what you think of those formally trained, well experienced farriers that have 'gone feral'. I wonder if they are worthy of a discussion with you, or perhaps you just believe they're all in it to scam people??


> "feral horse", "proper hoof function", "mustang rolls", "transition periods", "tea tree oil", "proper diet"


 If informing the horse owner of all that kind of 'crap' is just time wasting, or worse, in your opinion, then I guess you either don't believe in educating your owners, or perhaps you don't see infection, dietary effects, hoof function, etc as important factors? I suppose you can't possibly learn or relate anything from nature, perhaps farriery improves on nature to such a degree that it's not worth considering?



> Oh hell bnt ( :wink: ), you and Zon were supposed to manage the battle over on horsetopia!


 So you are indeed here for a battle. I will then try to ignore your posts in future, so long as they're not unreasonable attacks against me. I am however more than happy to discuss, debate, etc, any rational questions, specifics, etc with people who want to respectfully discuss different opinions.


> Conversely, reduce the load bearing surface area and that same force per square unit of measure will increase.


 Interesting you mention this, as in my understanding, this happens to be one of the big 'cons' of standard shoes, or otherwise peripherally loaded feet.



> Two thoughts. First, "flat relative to what?". Second, "It depends".


Depends on what, in your opinion? Flat relative to... not flat. You spent some time on your assumption that any 'good' farrier wouldn't leave the ground surface of a barefoot horse flat, then did a big spiel about how bad scooping quarters & the likes is. So I think bnt's question was the same as mine – wanted you to explain this contradiction.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Subbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

loosie said:


> Chipping more at the quarters, blah, blah, blah....


I made it clear that I'm not going to get caught up in your "barefoot is better than shod" agenda/debate and gave my reasons why. It's a waste of time and energy and most folks have heard it all before.

Bottom line is... you're a trimmer with a barefoot agenda who engages in unethical practices intended to discredit full service farriers and willfully mislead horse owners into buying your dogma.

Case in point, as evidenced by your own website.

Corrective Hoof Trimming - Restoring physiologically correct hoof form

You clearly and specifically label the work as "corrective shoeing", then follow with a photo of how you cured the horses ills with "corrective trimming".

You intentionally fail to mention that the "corrective shoeing" photo does not represent anything "corrective" or "therapeutic". 

What the photo does show is a seriously neglected/overgrown foot that is distorting under load with a shoe that appears to have been too small the day it was put on. 

In short, you engage in what so many other barefoot practitioners do. You find some crappy, neglected or long overdue shoeing job; label it as an example of corrective, recent or proper farriery work, then go on to demonstrate how your barefoot approach corrected all the horses ills. 

It's intentionally disingenuous and is a despicable business practice.

Let's just cut to the chase then let this nonsense go.

You are presented with a horse, recently and properly trimmed for barefoot, that has suffered a tear to the deep digital flexor tendon of a hind limb as evidenced by diagnostic ultrasound. The attending veterinarian prescribes stall rest, additional caudal support/float and 3 degrees of plantar elevation. The vet will want to re-evaluate every six weeks over the next few months.

The concerned owner trusts the veterinarian and is looking to you, the "natural barefoot trimmer", to meet the horses needs. 

What are you going to do?

What is the owner supposed to do when they learn you can not meet the veterinarians expectations or the needs of their horse?

How long must the horse suffer and what increased risk of additional damage will that horse incur because you can't address it's needs?

Bottom line... you're a trimmer. At best, your skills are matched by the average, first month farrier student. At the end of 3 months, that same student has exceeded anything you bring to the table by an order of magnitude.

Trim for a year; trim for ten years; trim for a hundred years. It won't matter. At the end of the day, the very best you'll be able to ever do for a horse is still just a trim. You can't add mass. You can't add volume. You can't put material/support/balance where it does not exist.

For a LOT of horses... that just isn't good enough. They often need more. Their owners expect more. They deserve more.

You'll try to get around this with hoof boots, but that means the owner now has to do part of the job themselves because your barefoot trim can't meet their needs! In fact, they're stuck with the larger percentage of maintenance while still having to pay you for the ongoing trims!

If they are willing to endure the maintenance associated with boots, they should still engage a full service farrier to help them. That way, when and if something does go wrong; and sooner or later for most horse owners, it will; they aren't left scrambling for serious help because their "trimmer" cannot meet their horses needs.

You want to continue your education and finish developing all the skills a farrier must possess to meet all the needs of every horse as best you possibly can? Fine... I'll be as supportive as anyone you could ever meet.

Choose to limit your practice to trimming only? That's fine too but, if that's your choice, stop trying to convince horse owners that your skill and knowledge is somehow anything other than a farrier student that dropped out after the first month. 

Take the easy way out if you want. Limit yourself in any way you want. It's all your choice... but stop trying to cover up your own limitations by selling horse owners on some ridiculous notion that your skills are really all any horse needs.

Cheers,
Mark


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Casting is pretty nifty and versitile while offering a no nail alternatives for therapy and frequently used in metal shoe and nail free rehabilitations alongside vettec matierials, pads, wedges and so forth. What do you think about that? 

I think im more about using nonmetal materials than anything. Just a personal preference I guess. I like the plastic shoes and the properties they possess and give to the horse. They just keep getting better and better as time goes by and a pretty cool alternative IMO. This is assuming the skill of the person applying the shoe is competant of course. Same as anything else. 

There are alot of folks looking for alternatives to the old metal shoe. Rubber/poly or what have youy offer some good alternatives while still giving protection. Guess that makes me not a "bare" person....idk....Dont care. Just want sound comfy horses....


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horseman56 said:


> Case in point, as evidenced by your own website.
> 
> Corrective Hoof Trimming - Restoring physiologically correct hoof form


Another example of your unfounded conclusions Mark, because I don't have a clue who's website that is, but it ain't mine! Get back in your box & if you're going to make noises, try to stick to facts rather than assumptions & innuendo.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well loosie considering that is the site that you consistently link to as the best for pictures...


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## Horseman56 (Jul 25, 2011)

loosie said:


> Another example of your unfounded conclusions Mark, because I don't have a clue who's website that is, but it ain't mine! Get back in your box & if you're going to make noises, try to stick to facts rather than assumptions & innuendo.



Nothing unfounded about my conclusions or facts.

It's your signature and your link, not mine. One can only presume it is either your website or one that you find value in sharing in every post you create on this forum.

If it's not yours, perhaps you should be more familiar with the content you share on public forums before making it part of your personal signature.


Cheers,
Mark


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sorry Loosie but I can certainly see his point about the website. That is definately an overgrown, poorly shod hoof and it says that the after pic is a year later. I'm not a great horseshoer but I wouldn't need a year to do that.

also your defensiveness when confronted alarms me and seems like you have something to hide.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horseman56 said:


> Nothing unfounded about my conclusions or facts.


That's why you assumed I was someone else & launched an attack without even asking.

But yes, as it didn't actually occur to me that people may assume signature links are only to poster's own websites, I'll have to change that(boy, used to have a few sites of different people - that must have confused some!) I included that link for info on how to take hoof pics for critique is all. Trouble with signatures is they're short & you can only write so much - can't fit explanations & disclaimers.



> also your defensiveness when confronted alarms me and seems like you have something to hide.


Interesting, that's actually how I feel about this Mark's _offensiveness_. I have tried to be rational & objective & open in my reply to Mark's comments(not saying I always succeed:lol. I certainly felt the need to respond & give my opinions of what he wrote, lest my silence was interpreted as accepting his arguments or having wounds to lick, but I don't think I was being unreasonable or 'defensive' about it & actually don't really feel personally 'confronted' at all, because he's not attacking me, just some fictional person(or the owner of that website) that he has assumed I am. 

Anyway, now I'll go change my signature & have a good look at that website....


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

loosie said:


> Interesting, that's actually how I feel about this Mark's _offensiveness_. I have tried to be rational & objective & open in my reply to Mark's comments(not saying I always succeed:lol. I certainly felt the need to respond & give my opinions of what he wrote, lest my silence was interpreted as accepting his arguments or having wounds to lick, but I don't think I was being unreasonable or 'defensive' about it & actually don't really feel personally 'confronted' at all, because he's not attacking me, just some fictional person(or the owner of that website) that he has assumed I am.


:clap:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Actually Loosie, I do see you as super defensive. 

When Mark first posted in this thread, I stated that it was nice to have a good farrier here - you chose to ignore the hoof conversation and pick apart my posts, not once but twice. 

Now you are focused on the link (which you are advertising) and not the questions that Mark asked about how you would treat a specific case with a horse. 

Pick me apart again if you like, it just adds corn starch to your weak sauce.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> When Mark first posted in this thread, I stated that it was nice to have a good farrier here - *you chose to ignore the hoof conversation* and pick apart my posts, not once but twice.
> 
> Now you are focused on the link (which you are advertising) and *not the questions that Mark asked about how you would treat a specific case with a horse*.


HAH.

Have you not noticed how Mark has said he refuses to engage Loosie in conversation because all she practices is junk science and has no knowledge worth sharing?

Or did you miss the post Loosie wrote about the hoof conversation, that Mark then, once again, completely dismissed as hogwash and not 'worthy' of his reply?

Loosie, I envy you your patience! You are a better person than I.


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