# No-Go option for purchase?



## Maya Kali (Apr 3, 2014)

Hello All

I'm new to this forum, and what a great community it is!
Here posted is a 2.5 year old colt. The lovely movement he inherited from his sire. Sadly he is in my opinion not a canditate for purchase since he has hock problems. Probably bog spavin or OCD. The stud did not check and he lives in a herd with other geldings. What is your opinion of him and the hock problem?


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

One would need to know your goals to assess the suitability for your purposes and asking a vet about the hock issue would probably be suggested. He sounds like he would be a gamble. Also would be of concern that he has these issues at such a young age. I personally would pass.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Twice I have had young horses, one a yearling and the other a two year old, throw bod spa ins/ thoroughpins that were exceedingly unsightly, both on one hock only and both appearing suddenly. 

A good chiropractor can set them right both of mine were misaligned over the pelvis, once that was squared up the swellings disappeared,


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## bchappy (Jan 7, 2014)

Other than his hock issues, I quite like how he is built. Depending on his asking price, I might take the chance.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

If he has OCD he is dead. That is the long and the short of it. Before you take this horse _regardless of price_ have him xrayed by someone competent and see if he has OCD. I bet he does. He looks heavy and very mature for a 2.5 year old. 

Look at the size of his left front knee. May be OCD flaring there as well (it usually does, but show up first in the hocks).

No point in even taking the horse home if he has OCD.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can you explain OCD. ..?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

OCD does not manifest itself with (what looks like soft tissue swelling)

When a horse or person is misaligned then they adjust their posture to compensate and this puts wear and tear on the joints causing all sorts of problems,

Osteochondritis dissecans (OCD) is a relatively common developmental disease that affects the cartilage and bone in the joints of horses. It causes clinical signs of disease in 5-25% of all horses and can occur in all horse breeds. Cartilage in joints with OCD doesn’t form normally; this causes the cartilage and bone underneath it to become irregular in thickness and weaker than in normal joints. This can cause the development of cartilage and bone flaps that can either remain partially attached to the bone or break off and float around in the joint. These loose flaps and areas of abnormal cartilage and bone cause inflammation in the joint and over time may lead to the development of arthritis. OCD is usually caused by a combination of several factors acting together, including:

Rapid growth and large body size
Nutrition: Diets very high in energy or have an imbalance in trace minerals (low copper diets)
Genetics: Risk of OCD may be partially inherited
Hormonal imbalances: Insulin and thyroid hormones
Trauma and exercise: Trauma (including routine exercise) is often involved in the formation and loosening of the OCD flap


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> Can you explain OCD. ..?


Obsessive compulsory disorder - something I certainly do not suffer with which should you visit, you would see!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

the disease is very serious in that it is the growth plats so affected. The abnormal growth of articular cartilage is usually coupled with epiphysitis which is over growth of bones at the growth plates (this is a VERY simplified explanation). 

By the time the horse is lame or shows signs of OCD it is too late. The horse's joints are afflicted and often cannot even be pasture sound. 

Over feeding young stock.. too fat young stock.. mares that milk like cows and so forth as well as genetics are all thought to be factors. Follow this link:
When Joints Fail: Osteochondrosis | TheHorse.com

Get xrays. If the disease is obvious, do not take on this problem. The end is the same (a dead horse). Here is a photo of a cadaver joint showing the lesions in the cartilage of the weight bearing articular surface.

The other photo is a hock so affected. Looks a little boggy.. and it will get worse to the point where the horse may well be in so much pain he is unable to stand.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree it is serious, but I maintain that the colt in question has a thoroughpin. This os caused through a misalignment and needs to be sorted.

I would say that if he was stood square and a photo taken of him from behind one hip would be lower than the other,


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

That may be the case.. but having had a horse about this age with OCD I would get xrays. It is not fun to breed a mare and get a nice foal that ends up being put down just as he enters training because he has OCD lesions. Nicest gelding in many many ways.. and just a joy (they always are, aren't they?)

Get a diagnosis of that hock. A thoroughpin was not treated back in the day (back in MY day LOL) and was considered a blemish. 

_I would like *you* to be right Foxhunter._ My suggestion is to make sure as there is no point in the heart break or the money trail OCD can take you down!.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I would pass. He had joint issues. It looks like they overfed him so he grew to fast for his joints. That could also be a spavin, but he would only be good as pasture pet or pal , only gets worse with age and use.


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## Maya Kali (Apr 3, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Obsessive compulsory disorder - something I certainly do not suffer with which should you visit, you would see!


Are you sure about this , I think we all on this forum have some level of OCD...

When I visit the stud I will make some more pictures. Is there any clear difference on feel / visual between thoroughpin and OCD? I anyway will have a search on this. He will most likely be a no-go.

Thanks a lot for all your responses!


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

Depending on what the OP wants to do with the horse, I will counter the 'nay sayers'.

My afterthought purchase gelding Riley had OCD (the osteochondritis variety) in his right hind as a youngster. He developed the bone spur/bone flap as described by Foxhunter and had surgery to rectify/remove.

I bought him to be my second horse, my steady Eddie, my husband horse (some hope!) and boy am I lucky if found him!

He is an amazing horse, intelligent, trustworthy, amazingly sensitive to the aids, and a very easy keeper. I have discovered a joy of dressage that I never thought I would have with him!

He is not built for speed...so I would never have looked at him for the likes of endurance or competitive eventing anyway. If I had been wanting him for those then I would have been out off by the OCD. But I wanted a good all-round pleasure horse, and I found one at a good price the reflected the OCD.

Yes, he may have arthritis in that joint in the future, yes he may have arthritis in all his joints in the future. But what horse is without problems as it gets old?

So - it comes back to what the OP wants to do with him, and now much they are asking.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

From the Merck Manual:
*Thoroughpin *refers to a distention of the tarsal sheath of the deep digital flexor tendon just above the hock. It is characterized by plantar fluid-filled swellings visible on both medial and lateral sides proximal to the tibiotarsal joint, which distinguish it from bog spavin (see Bog Spavin in Horses). It is usually unilateral and varies in size. The lesion is referred to as a tenosynovitis of traumatic origin, but it may not be associated with any detectable inflammation, pain, or lameness. It essentially constitutes a blemish and so is of major clinical importance in show horses. Treatment is by withdrawal of the fluid and injection of hyaluronate and/or a long-acting corticosteroid, which may need to be repeated until the swelling does not recur.

*Osteochondrosis *diagnosis needs Xrays. Xrays should be part of any PPE and are part of why a PPE costs so much money.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My filly was thought to have OCD about a year ago. Her offside stifle swells up on occasion and she goes lame on that leg. I never did get xrays done but her lameness is entirely feed and muscular related. I think what happens is that her muscles in that leg get extremely tight [tying-up possibly as a horse that ties up reacts to most of the same feeds as she does] and as a result her stifle gets pulled out of alignment, resulting in swelling and lameness.

The exact same thing happens to me, in my knee.

I still hold out hope that she'll be my eventing/showjumping horse. She's holding up very nicely to dressage work and doesn't go sore after the occasional free-jumping session so I hope that when I start her over fences for real she'll be fine.

The more work she's in the sounder she is!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

It is heartbreaking to have a horse, that you have ridden and kept for years to have to have it euthanized because it has arthritis, cannot bend the joints to have farrier work , get up and down without being in constant pain. they can trip and fall while walking, causing major injury to other joints.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As said earlier, many things can cause OCD. A box foot is more often then not the result of OCD in the very young foal. 
I would look at the above colt very carefully. Assess whether or not it was a soft swelling or a boney growth. If the latter and I was still interested then I would have it X rayed then decide.

Incorrect feeding can often cause OCD and with people wanting their foal to do well often feed hard food to soon and to much.

A friend bred an exceptional colt. I have never met anyone more neurotic then this woman and she panicked over anything. For some reason she had the vet out. The lad that came was only just qualified and he was spouting a load of vet speak which she didn't really understand.
Next time I saw the foal he was with his mother on some very poor grass, more weed than grass and very rough ground having been poached during the winter. I immediately said they needed to be moved. I was told the vet said that the foal didn't need to much grass because of the threat of OCD. 
As both were loosing condition she was feeding them to much (as per the manufacturer recommendations) and of course he did develop OCD in the fetlocks. 

It all got very out of hand, the vet was inexperienced, he proudly said he had worked in Newmarket (one of the biggest racehorse areas in the UK) when I questioned him on this he had to admit that it was when he was training and mostly he had been dealing with small animals. 
Owner followed the vet advice and shut the colt up for 6 months ending with a frantic wind sucking yearling. 
He came to me as a yearling, still meant to be on reduced exercise. My vet looked at him and said throw him out in the field and forget him, the fetlocks would never change from what they were, 
A beautiful foal ruined from vet advice.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Bad vet advice is bad vet advice.. here or in the UK. 

Here in the US a PPE includes xrays, blood work and so forth.


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## Maya Kali (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear Foxhunters colt story. Reminds me when I was advised by the breeder to give a x amount of puppy feed to our new shepherd pup, so she could not grow to fast. The poor thing became so hungry that she started eating little stones. She almost died. After that she was free to eat anytime she felt like and grew into a perfectly healthy dog.

I guess a bunch of common sense and a look how nature does it, we'll come a long way.

The particular colt was used for shows and most probable extra fed to encourage growth and condition. The ones that are not chosen to participate in shows are kept in the velt where during wintertime the grazing is less. Plus enough movement on different types of soil and rocks and so on. More natural, more healthy I believe.

Thanks so much for all comments. Once I have visited the stud again, I'll sent more pictures and information to comment on.


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