# Breaking a 7 year old gelding



## aqhaalli (Jun 19, 2014)

I just bought a beautiful 7 year old paint gelding. To make a long story short when I was talking to the lady on the phone about him she said he was "green broke" I drive a few hours to go pick him up and he was hardly halter broke!!!! Not to mention he had not been weaned from his mother till that day!!!!!! YES HES 7!!!!! Im so over my head with him I dont even know where to start! My 2 year old colt is more mannered than he is! I have done much ground work with him and hes now respecting my space and will lunge now, but I dont know what the next step should be! Ive worked with plenty of horses but hes just WOW! I lunged him with the saddle a few times and he seems fine with him, threw it on and let it fall off all that fun stuff. I got on him once and he just ran me into the gate the whole ride! Idk if having someone lead me for the first few times will help or if I should just keep doing ground work. PLEASE HELP ME AND THIS 7 YEAR OLD!ll


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Why on earth did you bring him home if he wasn't what you had been told? I would have kept my money in my pocket and walked.. or ran... as far as possible. Anyway, it's well beyond that at this stage. 

I'm going to say what I think darn near everybody else is going to say - get a trainer. This horse needs professional work, and by doing what you are doing you are going to create a whole lot of problems and possibly end up with a dangerous animal. 

There is no point throwin a saddle on a few times, lunging a few times and getting on. If you want a long term dependable mount - you want things done the right way. Has he been trained at all? Has he been consistently lunged, long-reins, and taught to yield to the bit? Have you established "brakes"?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

You can get someone to train the horse for you, or you can get a suitable training manual and have a go yourself. If you're going to go the latter route, then you have to read and understand everything fully before you start each particular stage of training - as most vices are inadvertently taught to horses by their human handlers, and it's so much easier to prevent such problems than correct them, if you know what to look for and how to respond in various situations you may find yourself in.

The book I went by, when educating my first horse from the ground up 30 years ago, is Tom Roberts' _Horse Control -The Young Horse_, and its companion volume _Horse Control - The Rider_. These Australian books covered 99% of what I needed to take a horse from halter broken yearling to a horse that was a pleasure to handle, lunge, free lunge, ride and drive, and she competed very successfully in a variety of disciplines over the course of her life. I have lots of other horse books, but never found a more useful one than these.

I was 11 when I started, but having said that, had the advantages of having participated in a six-month, very strict, intensive elementary dressage and jumping course, and growing up on a horse stud where horses were being educated all the time. My mare was, however, a solo project, with very minimal assistance from other people required using Mr Roberts' techniques. I think it's possible to do this sort of thing if you have a decent level of riding experience, a good manual and lots of motivation and persistence.

You do totally need to recognise the times when you will be at sea, and go back and educate yourself back onto dry land instead of blundering on with a problem. This is where reading your training manual, talking to other horsepeople, and places like this forum come in useful.

I personally have a higher opinion of learning horsemanship from a book written by an exceptional and experienced horseperson than from the average on-the-ground trainer, at least in this country. Many trainers don't have a tenth of the understanding and experience, and the ability to communicate it, than the authors I seriously read, and I have seen many people who have become stuck in riding and horse handling problems they were incorrectly taught as good practice by their trainers. If you can find and work with an excellent trainer, that's great (and usually expensive), but even so, I recommend widely reading up on a range of systematic manuals so that you are in a position to know different approaches to problems, and to evaluate critically what other people are telling you, whether in books or real life.

I think it's great you've taught your horse to lunge, but don't go too fast with the mounting and riding - hurrying costs you time down the track, and is dangerous, since you are working with a ~500kg animal. There is lots of ground work, lunging with and without saddle, driving from the ground with long reins, etc to do and lots of lessons your horse has to have learnt solidly before you get on its back, and then when you do, your horse will be thoroughly prepared and you will be unlikely to encounter trouble. A place like this forum is good for troubleshooting, but I can't overemphasise the value of decent training manual to take you through all the nitty-gritty stuff systematically.

My recommendation is an out-of-print Australian text that can still be obtained if you search for it in the right places, but I'm sure other people who have educated their own horses will be able to give you pointers for great manuals written elsewhere.

I wish you all the best in your venture, and above all, stay safe.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I... honestly just sort of muddled through the first time -blush-

If you have a solid understanding of the concept of pressure and release you can train any horse to do anything without an undue amount of difficulty.

The most important part, AND I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH, is to make sure your horse has exceptionally good ground manners. You need to be able to walk and trot your horse in hand without him trying to walk all over you, and turn left and right IN TROT with the horse in hand. Your horse needs to yield both hind- and forequarter willingly and softly, and back up both on lead and at liberty. There must be no barging, crowding of your space, or meandering along behind you snatching at grass. You must be able to tie your horse reliably, and pick up all four feet and hold them up for long enough that a farrier could do his job. In short, you must have NO PROBLEMS at all with your groundwork.

THEN comes the task of ensuring the horse accepts and understands the tack. Simple enough. Using the concept of pressure and release and approach and retreat, first you must get him completely used to the tack, and then you must teach him about it. What the saddle does [flapping the stirrups around is a handy exercise], what the bit means. When teaching a horse about bit aids, you start with very light pressure and slowly build it up until the horse responds by giving to the pressure. Then you INSTANTLY release it. I taught lateral flexing on the ground from halt, flexing both towards and away from the person, and I taught reinback. Then I put my filly in long lines to teach her about steering [following her head lol] and stopping.

Once the horse is used to the tack and understands it, one must get him used to the idea of being mounted. First, the trainer jumps up and down next to the horse to get him used to a movement that is similar to mounting. Then, the trainer puts weight in the stirrups with her hands. Then, the two are put together. One can teach the horse about weight on its back very slowly by initially putting pressure on the top of the saddle with one's hands and then slowly working towards leaning over its back and finally sitting.

And sitting.

And sitting.

Seriously. Do a lot of just sitting there. It's good for teaching a horse patience and I guarantee you will NEVER have trouble with your horse standing to be mounted if it believes there's a strong possibility it will only have to stand there and chill.

Then the pressure and release comes into play for forward. Your horse should already understand very well the light tap of a schooling whip. You give a light leg aid. The horse probably won't respond. So you then give a firm leg aid. Then a light tap with the whip, and finally, if you still aren't getting a response, one firm whack. At this early stage it doesn't matter how fast the horse goes forward, the important thing is that it goes FORWARD. Once you have forward well established, you then teach degrees of forward, or walk/trot/canter in other words. This concept is harder to explain but it isn't an overly complicated method.

Once you have solid basics - walk, trot, canter, stop and turn in both directions, SOFTLY - you then move on to training specifics for your discipline.

Edit; and if this is done PROPERLY without skipping any steps, very very few horses will ever buck. Mine didn't, not during the breaking process at least - she still chucks one in now and then if she's feeling fresh but it's so easy to ride out that even a child could do it.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Oh boy, when I saw the title I thought 'I don't remember starting this thread'.

But it turns out it is not about Chief and me after all.

Subbing.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

If you have not worked with challenging horses or started colts under saddle then my suggestion would be to send him to an experienced trainer and get him started on the right foot. Let a good colt starter get him to a point where you can handle him with confidence. This would be best for you and the horse.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hackamore said:


> If you have not worked with challenging horses or started colts under saddle then my suggestion would be to send him to an experienced trainer and get him started on the right foot. Let a good colt starter get him to a point where you can handle him with confidence. This would be best for you and the horse.


This would be one good option for her and the horse, but we are not in a position to say it is the only good option, or the best option. Every person who is experienced with saddle educating horses and working with challenging horses once upon a time started with their first horse / first challenging horse. There are people who have the determination and the aptitude to learn to do something like that, and we don't know our OP well enough to judge whether or not she is one of them. But, seeking input rather than blundering on when hitting a problem is always a good sign, and she has done that.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We broke and trained a 9 year old (barely halter broke) 2 years ago. He is my husband's 'go to' saddle horse now and a super horse in the pasture or on the trail.

BUT......Husband has trained horses for 35 years. I have trained them for about 54 years now.

Your chances of coming out of this with a safe, ridable horse (much less a 'good', well broke horse) are about nil. 

The problem with books and DVDs is that the horse has not read them or watched them and 'signed off' on following them. You can write 10,000 pages about how to break a horse. BUT, no book will give you the experience or judgement to even recognize problems quickly enough to address them before they before they become HUGE wrecks and problems. 

Once a horse gets the opportunity to do something wrong, then, it requires a completely different skill set and knowledge level to fix the problem and go on. Even then, the best trainer in the World has never figured out a way to take anything OUT of a horse's head. The best trained horses and most pleasant and willing horses are those that have been trained by someone that never let them make a mistake. 

My husband has never had his gelding make a mistake yet. He stood out in a pasture all winter when there was ice and snow and mud. First ride this spring, he just rode off like he had been ridden every day. 

The fact that this horse is 7 is not nearly as big a deal as the fact that you do not know how to deal with teaching a horse to 'guide' from the ground. He is already picking up a very bad habit if he is doing this. * "I got on him once and he just ran me into the gate the whole ride!" *We 'ground drive'a horse and teach it to 'follow its nose' before we even think about getting on one. You already have a bad habit to break because he is going to want to head to the gate or the barn until this is 'fixed' and he is taught that this is not acceptable.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Cherie said:


> We broke and trained a 9 year old (barely halter broke) 2 years ago. He is my husband's 'go to' saddle horse now and a super horse in the pasture or on the trail.
> 
> BUT......Husband has trained horses for 35 years. I have trained them for about 54 years now.


And once upon a time, you started, on your first horse, and you did not have decades of experience, like everyone who starts something like this.




> Your chances of coming out of this with a safe, ridable horse (much less a 'good', well broke horse) are about nil.


I do not believe there is a crystal ball that tells us this, and I think it's quite insulting to say that to the OP given that we don't know them well, because it makes an unsupported assumption that she is totally incapable of learning how to educate her own horse.




> The problem with books and DVDs is that the horse has not read them or watched them and 'signed off' on following them.


Training manuals are intended for humans to read, not horses, and quite a few people I know have used them successfully to make a start on educating their own horses, and take them through to competition level, with considerable success. Training manuals are written for the purpose of helping people do just that. There are great ones and not-so-great ones, of course, as previously discussed.




> You can write 10,000 pages about how to break a horse. BUT, no book will give you the experience or judgement to even recognize problems quickly enough to address them before they before they become HUGE wrecks and problems.


Oh really? Shame, I clearly must have imagined that I had a horse I educated successfully using commonsense, a good basic riding education, and t_raining manuals_, and that I competed with her for years, and then trained subsequent horses, and that I knew other people who have done exactly the same, without producing train wrecks. And clearly reading won't help anybody gain the slightest bit of experience, judgement, or insight...so all those people who worked for decades educating horses and re-educating problem horses and writing books for other people to use were completely wasting their time on something worse than useless...




> Once a horse gets the opportunity to do something wrong, then, it requires a completely different skill set and knowledge level to fix the problem and go on. Even then, the best trainer in the World has never figured out a way to take anything OUT of a horse's head. The best trained horses and most pleasant and willing horses are those that have been trained by someone that never let them make a mistake.


I could now suggest that you might wish to read some of the literature produced by people who have successfully rehabilitated many problem horses and written about their techniques...

I have a close relative who made quite a habit of taking on other people's problem horses and turning them into race winners who were also great trail horses. The problems are usually created by people and horses usually respond well to re-education.

I also know many so-called problem horses who became very pleasant and willing mounts once given a proper education. Many of them also seem to also breathe a huge sigh of relief to be out of the pickle they were in.

With regards to the rest of your post, someone who has made a significant mistake in training a horse and then sought advice is not, in my opinion, automatically disqualified from any further training of their horse, should they wish to proceed.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

SueC said:


> And once upon a time, you started, on your first horse, and you did not have decades of experience, like everyone who starts something like this.
> 
> I do not believe there is a crystal ball that tells us this, and I think it's quite insulting to say that to the OP given that we don't know them well, because it makes an unsupported assumption that she is totally incapable of learning how to educate her own horse.
> 
> ...


 
People make mistakes with horses all the time, it's a part of the learning process. However, this girl has admittedly stated that she has no idea what she is doing and is in over her head. By my standards, that is a recipe for an injury. 

I suggest you seek professional help. Cherie is 100% right. You cannot learn to ride or train a horse by simply reading a book. You must learn by trial and error. Training horses isn't something you should be learning on your own (as many of us have). 

We could write pages of posts and you could read all of them in depth, and still, you won't be any more able to train than you were when you first posted this. 

For example, you can read books on how to sing, watch videos, etc. But if you never open your mouth, how are you really going to learn? At the end of the day, you still might not even have the ability to sing after you do open your mouth. 

What is training after all? A collection of trail and error. You have figured out what works best for you, your horse, and what keeps you *safe*

OP, I applaud you for admitting you're in over your head. It takes a lot (especially these days) to admit that. I strongly suggest getting a professional to help you. There is no shame in asking for help, even people who have been training their entire lives still ask for it. You need to take it a step further away from the internet and books. Get someone who can physically be there and not only help you, but keep you safe.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SueC said:


> raining manuals are intended for humans to read, not horses, and quite a few people I know have used them successfully to make a start on educating their own horses, and take them through to competition level, with considerable success. Training manuals are written for the purpose of helping people do just that. There are great ones and not-so-great ones, of course, as previously discussed.


So you are saying it is OKAY to simply learn how to train a horse by reading a manual. 

On that thought, would you get into an airplane where the pilot learned to fly by reading the manual? (But had no hours under an instructor and no hours actually flying the plane?)

Would you be the passenger in a car of a person who had learned how to drive a car by reading the manual? But had never actually driven before?

Do you see how ridiculous your logic sounds? Sure, you can read all the manuals you want on "How to Train a Horse". But if you have never done it before, and have never worked under a horse trainer (in person), how do you know you will be able to do it without a serious disaster?

Sure, you might get lucky and have a very good natured horse. People get lucky. It happens. But what if this horse isn't an easy horse? And the OP doesn't have the correct timing with her cues? Or doesn't recognize that she's moving too slow and boring him (so that he acts out because he's bored) .... or moving too fast and he blows up?

YOU CANNOT TRAIN A HORSE JUST BY READING A BOOK. Yes, you might get lucky and be okay. But you absolutely need hands on training with someone who knows what they are doing. 




aqhaalli said:


> I just bought a beautiful 7 year old paint gelding. To make a long story short when I was talking to the lady on the phone about him she said he was "green broke" I drive a few hours to go pick him up and he was hardly halter broke!!!! Not to mention he had not been weaned from his mother till that day!!!!!! YES HES 7!!!!! Im so over my head with him I dont even know where to start!


As others have already pointed out, I don't know why you even brought him home. That was your first mistake. 
1) He wasn't as the seller described.
2) He is more than you can handle (as even you admit)

So your options are:
1) Sell him. Buy something that is appropriate for what you want.
2) Get a trainer to help you make him into what you want. 




aqhaalli said:


> My 2 year old colt is more mannered than he is! I have done much ground work with him and hes now respecting my space and will lunge now, but I dont know what the next step should be!


Your next step should be enlisting the help of a trainer. If you don't want to "send him off" for 30 days, you don't have to, but at least go take lessons with him. Learn proper timing. Learn what the next steps are. 

All the great horsemen and horsewomen you see on TV all started with a mentor. Sure, they might have started training horses when they were 12 years old, but I guarantee you it was under the watchful eye of someone who knew what they were doing. 




aqhaalli said:


> Ive worked with plenty of horses but hes just WOW!


Working with lots of horses is one thing. Working with a horse that is 100% green to the world is another thing. 



aqhaalli said:


> I lunged him with the saddle a few times and he seems fine with him, threw it on and let it fall off all that fun stuff. I got on him once and he just ran me into the gate the whole ride!


This concerns me greatly for your safety. 

You aren't taking his ground work seriously, because you don't know what you are doing. I do not mean that to be an insult, but it is the truth at this point in time. If you want to keep yourself safe, you need to come to terms with the fact that you need help. 

You are *EXTREMELY LUCKY* he didn't break into a bucking fit, or anything else. Because I guarantee you didn't teach him how to give to a bit or halter, so you would have no control over his head and no control over the direct he is traveling. You also haven't desensitized him on the ground, so if he would have started bucking, your body bouncing all over him would have escalated the situation further. 

You literally allowed yourself to crawl onto a 1,200 animal with having ZERO control over it. That's about the same as going skydiving without your parachute. You had ZERO safety with what you just did. Count your lucky stars that nothing happened. 

I stress this point of safety to you so that you will realize how serious the situation is. You need to sell this horse and get one that is suitable for you, or you need to work with a training who knows what they are doing. If you can't afford a trainer, then you need to sell the horse.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

beau159 said:


> .
> You are *EXTREMELY LUCKY* he didn't break into a bucking fit, or anything else. Because I guarantee you didn't teach him how to give to a bit or halter, so you would have no control over his head and no control over the direct he is traveling. You also haven't desensitized him on the ground, so if he would have started bucking, your body bouncing all over him would have escalated the situation further.
> 
> *You literally allowed yourself to crawl onto a 1,200 animal with having ZERO control over it*. That's about the same as going skydiving without your parachute. You had ZERO safety with what you just did. Count your lucky stars that nothing happened.
> ...


THIS^^^^^^^

You don't even realize how bad that could have turned out. I understand the "Yeah, but it was fine". Honestly though, it's not fine.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

B159: Nope, if you read what I've said carefully and in context you will see that I am saying that training manuals have a valuable place in people learning to educate horses... just like people learning to drive cars have to also read and do theory, and people who learn to fly airplanes (just ask a pilot!), etc - because it is a very helpful way to facilitate learning. Unpopular as the idea seems to be with some of you guys, the reading of technical manuals provides a wealth of valuable information on a plethora of pursuits, and contains the concentrated wisdom of people with subject expertise.

Now, what were the other things I mentioned again? See my first post in this thread. If you're arguing logic, at least argue the logic I actually presented.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

*Ground Driving*

Yes, it is a most important step. I haven't done this in a few years. Used 2 rope lines with metal rings and snaps, have since cut the metal off and just tie one on the halter loop for GW.

Went to a colt starting clinic where running the lines through stirrups was done, and was the way I did. Recently saw a post by Cherie' suggesting that rings fastened to a work saddle were in a better position.

So now I need to do some ground driving again and need lines with snaps so I got some from eBay. They just came in this week. They are round for about 10' then cotton web for 17', with a buckle in the middle. I think I'm going to like them but they are new and the folds are stiff so need broken in. They only cost $21. I already have a suitable pad with breast collar rings, and a surcingle, and a saddle as I work up to those things.

Anyway I asked a fellow boarder if she'd like to try them with her horse to break them in for me. She had never done this before but is always up for new things. 

Here's some pics

























































OP if you have another horse that is steady, you could learn to do it.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

SueC said:


> B159: Nope, if you read what I've said carefully and in context you will see that I am saying that training manuals have a valuable place in people learning to educate horses... just like people learning to drive cars have to also read and do theory, and people who learn to fly airplanes (just ask a pilot!), etc - because it is a very helpful way to facilitate learning. Unpopular as the idea seems to be with some of you guys, the reading of technical manuals provides a wealth of valuable information on a plethora of pursuits, and contains the concentrated wisdom of people with subject expertise.
> 
> Now, what were the other things I mentioned again? See my first post in this thread. If you're arguing logic, at least argue the logic I actually presented.


 
No one said that reading manuals/books on training was bad. Knowledge is power after all. However, we do not think she should simply read a book and give it a go. That is *dangerous.*

This girl needs professional help with this animal or to sell it. Bottom line.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SueC said:


> B159: Nope, if you read what I've said carefully and in context you will see that I am saying that training manuals have a valuable place in people learning to educate horses... just like people learning to drive cars have to also read and do theory, and people who learn to fly airplanes (just ask a pilot!), etc - because it is a very helpful way to facilitate learning. *Unpopular as the idea seems to be with some of you guys,* the reading of technical manuals provides a wealth of valuable information on a plethora of pursuits, and contains the concentrated wisdom of people with subject expertise.


I did not see where anyone said that books or manuals are not valuable, including myself. 

What I am saying is that you can't use ONLY reading. You need to ALSO have hands-on training with a professional. 

I did not see one sentence in your post that stated the OP (or anyone else, for that matter) needs hands-on training in person with a professional trainer. You only talked about manuals.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

OP, admitting you are in over your head shows me two things, 
1)you have enough humility to admit it, and
2)you need help, from someone experienced

Maybe this is one of those forgiving, kind, "Born broke" horses that just hasn't been handled and you can read up on training, muddle through and come out with a ride-able horse at the end.

or maybe this horse will take advantage of you, and badly hurt you. 

This is coming from someone who has been there, done that. I learned to train through common sense, listening to many people talk, reading, watching dvd's and some help from someone who had done it before. At one point I had a horse that was way over my head. She hurt me, badly, and over the course of a few months of getting dumped and broken she shattered my confidence, I very nearly quit riding. I don't know who, other than a bronc rider, would have been better for her, But the lesson I learned the hard way was once you hit that point where you know your over horsed, quit, or get help/


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Okay. Guys. Steady on a minute.

I'm betting the OP feels a bit intimidated and possibly victimised by all these people saying that it isn't going to end well.

IT CAN and IT DOES. I mean look at me. I started with a dangerous horse. I had put the beginning foundations on one horse up to first ride but hadn't finished the breaking process before. It took me a long time of pure groundwork but I must have done something right because I have never had a problem with my girl that I couldn't handle easily.

I have not had ONE lesson with her, or taken her to a single clinic. I didn't even use BOOKS. I just used common sense, trial and error, and the understanding of pressure and release that I already had from my experience with previous [already trained, but stubborn] horses. And my horse turned out pretty bloody well, considering. To the point where I have two breakers lined up for when I'm back in the saddle, and one will pay. Sort of. The agreement is that if I break her, market her, find a buyer and sell her, I get the money. Meanwhile her owner remains in charge of all her upkeep. I must have done a decent job if I have two different people asking me to start their horses.

I will remind you all again, this is with NO prior experience breaking horses to saddle, NO trainer, NO books. IT CAN WORK. We need to lay off the OP [and those who have offered advice] and concentrate on giving her the theoretical knowledge that will help her to learn the practical side of things.

Theoretical knowledge is very handy to have. It gives you an arsenal of things to try to find the method that works best for you and your horse. I will be approaching breaking my friend's Standardbred much different to how I approached starting Magic. I foresee a different set of challenges, and so it will require a different set of skills. I don't know the other one, so I don't know what skill set I will need to call on for her, but from handling a few of the guy's other horses, I don't see her being much of a challenge.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> IT CAN and IT DOES. I mean look at me. I started with a dangerous horse. I had put the beginning foundations on one horse up to first ride but hadn't finished the breaking process before. It took me a long time of pure groundwork but I must have done something right because I have never had a problem with my girl that I couldn't handle easily.
> 
> ...
> 
> I will remind you all again, this is with NO prior experience breaking horses to saddle, NO trainer, NO books. IT CAN WORK. We need to lay off the OP [and those who have offered advice] and concentrate on giving her the theoretical knowledge that will help her to learn the practical side of things.


And your story is NOT the typical story. 

As I (and many other people) have already said --> Yes, you can _get lucky_ and have a good end result. But the fact of the matter is that a horse is a living, breathing (and quite large) animal with a mind of its own. It only takes a split second to make the wrong decision, and to get hurt. 

*Plus, I don't understand why people are so AGAINST working with a trainer?* Do you not think that you don't have the capability of learning from someone else? Why is seeking help bad?

When an NBA basketball player wants to improve his free throws, he works with a coach ... or another teammate ... or someone to possibly help improve his technique. 

Why should horses be any different?

I taught myself to play the violin. I was doing pretty darn good. Until I started taking lessons. Found that there was a _better _way to hold the bow. There was a _better_ way to transitions between the strings. Etc. Had I continued on my own, I would have never known that there were things I could do _better_. 

Again, why should horses be any different?

There is no shame in taking lessons and learning from someone else.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Seeking help is expensive and not everybody has the money for a professional trainer [$3000 for breaking is cheap] or for weekly lessons. I sure don't.

I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Idiots are idiots. Just because someone doesn't have buckets of knowledge doesn't mean they can't do a better job on pure intuition than some other random who does have buckets of knowledge. It's about FEEL.

Experience with HORSES and experience with BREAKERS are two completely different things and yes, people who've never started a horse before often think you just sort of climb on up and away you go. That or they go to the other extreme and assume it's far harder than it actually is. Saddle-breaking should not be a rodeo. If it is, you're doing it wrong. A lot of horses will throw in a crow-hop or two, especially in their first canter, but full on "GET OUT MY BACK" broncing does not happen if you start them right. And it's not about having truckloads of knowledge or experience. I know people who've started hundreds of horses who don't think there's anything strange about the first ride being a rodeo. One breaker informed me in his infinite wisdom that if my horse didn't buck me off the first time I got on her, then clearly she had been started and I was kidding myself. Trot and canter proved otherwise, in her pure uncertainty about what to do. That wasn't a horse that was broke but green. That was a horse that was unbroke. Maybe she had been sat on once or twice, or walked around, but I had a horse that had been under saddle for only 5 weeks when I bought him. I KNOW WHAT GREEN FEELS LIKE. She wasn't it.

Do bear in mind though, fillies from my horse's sire have a reputation of being either ridiculously quiet or complete nutjobs. My nutjob turned quiet.


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## ellen hays (Mar 19, 2014)

I doubt the person that started this thread will ever come back after experiencing the hostility within posts of this thread. Everyone should be able to make suggestions with others countering those suggestions in a civilized manner. Remind me never to give my opinion if I think it may go against the general consensus. I have learned a lot about training and handling horses thru this forum, but also I have learned a great deal from other sources. As a result, I am seeing progress with my horse. The lady from Australia has sound basis regarding her thoughts on the subject at hand. Everyone should have the right to give their opinions and allow the person who started the thread to take what they want to heart.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

There are two Aussies in this thread, Ellen 

I have been told I speak and write more like a Brit, but I don't see being educated and articulate as a purely British trait.

Sue is knowledgeable.

Just because someone's opinion or experience differs from your own doesn't mean you have the right to write them off as "just lucky", or "inexperienced", or worse... "stupid". Every opinion and every experience is valid, regardless of if you agree with it or not. That's a general "you" not a specific one, just to clarify.


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## ellen hays (Mar 19, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> You should really stop with the sarcasm and snark. It will get you no where.


Blue Eyed Pony

I couldn't have said it better myself. SueC s points were well founded. I just didn't see any sarcasm in her response. I am still wondering what in the heck "snark" is


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> Okay. Guys. Steady on a minute.
> 
> I'm betting the OP feels a bit intimidated and possibly victimised by all these people saying that it isn't going to end well.
> 
> ...


Just because you did it and ended up ok *does not* mean you can advocate other people doing it too. You are not the poster child for "do it yourself" I am appalled at the fact that you are saying this girl who admittedly said she is in over her head should "DYI" this. 

This is a unsafe situation for both the horse and the girl.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

An I see no hostility. I simply see people concerned for her safety and people who are clearly not.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> Just because you did it and ended up ok *does not* mean you can advocate other people doing it too. You are not the poster child for "do it yourself" I am appalled at the fact that you are saying this girl who admittedly said she is in over her head should "DYI" this.
> 
> This is a unsafe situation for both the horse and the girl.


I never said that. Please don't put words into my keyboard.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> I never said that. Please don't put words into my keyboard.


 
You were using yourself as an example of someone DYIing it and it ending up fine. Which is great. But that doesn't mean she should try it just because you did. 

I fear for this girls safety.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> You were using yourself as an example of someone DYIing it and it ending up fine. Which is great. But that doesn't mean she should try it just because you did.
> 
> I fear for this girls safety.


Find me one quote where I said she should do it.

Trainers are great but they ARE expensive and not everybody has the money. She has this horse. He is not as advertised. Now she wants to do the best by him and yes, a professional trainer carefully chosen is probably the best thing, but from a strapped-for-cash perspective, good advice costs nothing and while I can't be there to hold her hand every step of the way and certainly don't have the experience of a professional I can give her the tools in MY arsenal in the hopes that, even if she doesn't use them with this horse, she might find them useful in the future.

And from an experience perspective, it's all knowledge. And knowledge never hurt anyone.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> Seeking help is expensive and not everybody has the money for a professional trainer [$3000 for breaking is cheap] or for weekly lessons. I sure don't.


Didn't say it was cheap. But I did tell the OP above that if you can't afford lessons, then sell the horse and buy something that IS suitable for him/her at this time. 

Horses aren't cheap either. But if you can find a way to have them and afford having them, then also find a way to better yourself with them. Find a way to afford a lesson here and there. If you are _motivated_, you will find a way to make it happen. Maybe instead of blowing $30 at the movie theater for a movie and snacks, you can put it aside for lessons. Or instead of going out to dinner for $25, you can eat at home for $10 and put that $15 aside for lessons. I'm not saying it's easy to come up with extra money for things. But if you NEED it, then make it happen. 



blue eyed pony said:


> I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Idiots are idiots. Just because someone doesn't have buckets of knowledge doesn't mean they can't do a better job on pure intuition than some other random who does have buckets of knowledge. It's about FEEL.


Now I truly mean _zero disrespect_ to the OP when I say this ...... but how do we know the OP is not an idiot? (Just a devil's advocate question.)

I think we would be much safer to recommend the OP finds some help with this horse, than to assume that he or she has the timing and feel necessary to train a horse from scratch. Because the OP may not. I find it much safer to assume "the worst" rather than assuming "the best". It's just too easy for people to get hurt. We're looking out for the OP's safety.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> Find me one quote where I said she should do it.
> 
> *Trainers are great but they ARE expensive and not everybody has the money. She has this horse.* He is not as advertised. Now she wants to do the best by him and yes, a professional trainer carefully chosen is probably the best thing, but from a strapped-for-cash perspective, good advice costs nothing and while I can't be there to hold her hand every step of the way and certainly don't have the experience of a professional I can give her the tools in MY arsenal in the hopes that, even if she doesn't use them with this horse, she might find them useful in the future.
> 
> And from an experience perspective, it's all knowledge. And knowledge never hurt anyone.


Then she should sell the horse to someone more capable and confident. End of story.


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## ellen hays (Mar 19, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> Then she should sell the horse to someone more capable and confident. End of story.


 
No not end of story. She may like the horse. There is hope and its her decision.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

ellen hays said:


> No not end of story. She may like the horse. There is hope and its her decision.


Of course it's her decision, but it's the safest decision if she can't afford a trainer to come in and help her.


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## ellen hays (Mar 19, 2014)

.Delete. Ok that's your opinion. But, the horses owner still has the final say.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow, I read through the posts here as best I could. My opinion... if I were the OP I would do a lot of ground work with the horse for quite some time, months even, if need be. I wouldn't put a saddle on for awhile either.

And, as far as books being used for training resources... it is a GREAT idea! I have three training books that are like my Bibles. Books, along with a hands-on trainer/instructor, and DVDs, are very helpful.

I don't understand why one or two people feel the need to jump all over others... there was nothing snarky or sacastic in what SueC had to say.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the OP ends her post with 

_PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS SEVEN YEAR OLD!_

and also says:
_Im so over my head with him I don't even know where to start! _

knowing that she is over her head, I doubt she would take offense at some members telling her that she would do best to get a trainer, or, sell. 
The horse was not what she expected to be buying, so selling it is not really an outlandish or insulting suggestion, IMO.

And, I personally feel that because this person has admitting not knowing what step to take next, that she reallly should get the help of someone who has broken more horses. A manual is great, but a human is better. why not choose better? if it's money, well, that's something to consider.

However, the thing that really sent up red flags to me was her getting on him and having him run her around. the thing is, someone who doesn't know any better will not know when a horse is ready to be mounted. they pretty much guess becuase they did this or that step. it's not DOING those steps, it's whether or not the horse has learned from that step and is ready to pass on to the next step. you can go through the steps, from the manual, but if you don't know enough to see where the hrose is not stepping along with you, where he's "sticky", and thus where you need to stick with him until he's freed up, you'll blow right past the problems, and then get in the saddle, and those problems will be there, in a dangerous way.

an experienced trainer, as opposed to a manual, can say, "THIS horse needs more of THIS work" . the manual cannot.


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