# Thoughts on possible damage caused by previous saddle use



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

"He doesn’t allow that her temperament would make any difference or her* history of carrying* *people around safely in the past*, she's 18 years old."

This right here would cause me caution. It appears to mer he is marketing himself and his products.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

hm m m . .. can't put a lot of store by over-the-phone diagnosis.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MODERATOR NOTE:

The thread starter has been edited and reopened 

Thank you for your patience.

Horseforum Team


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> hm m m . .. can't put a lot of store by over-the-phone diagnosis.


Actually, wasn't fair of me to make it sound as if only "on-phone", as I did send the mule expert a picture, as here, with my more experienced friend riding my new mule with saddle we had bought from an outfitter; although a horse saddle, he said he had mules and it would be fine for mule since flatter shape and we made sure it was fit to her back using a Saddle Fit Kit, but then when friend finished riding, she found while grooming the sweet mule who rode well for her (I was along on our little welsh-pony size mule) that the mule had a sore back towards rear right. My friend found the mule expert's video on-line about differences in horse and mule backs so I sent picture to him and asked about mule saddles he has specially designed for mule backs.

He was very upset with me for not getting x-rays of scapula first, before buying mule, as when I went to try her the lady had a horse saddle on her. Told him that, unfortunately, I had not watched his video about how to buy a mule and trusted too much what the seller was telling me about her. He said you can't tell by palpating scapula or by her not having any pain. He was also very upset with us for having cinch so far forward, back cinch loose, no britchen and for using a snaffle bit, as he said if a "finished" riding mule, she should have a different bit (probably, I'm guessing, with shanks and flexibility at curb like what he sells for $142 on website.)

I'm sad here, as may have ruined both this mule and the other smaller mule, since have always used a kids' horse saddle on her, too, but neither been ridden hard. Sort of trying to assess risk to scapula here since not able to get x-rays or ultrasound so hope others will tell me if any have had x-rays that do not show damage from wearing a horse saddle or if x-rays did show damage but mules still safely carried their riders.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I have heard some are adamant that mules can't be ridden in horse saddles or without a crupper or breeching. However, two of my friends have ridden their mules for years in well fitted horse saddles and no crupper. Neither of them has had any issues, the mules are happy and sound. It probably depends on the back shape and if it is more like the horse or donkey side.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

Thank you @gottatrot for letting me know that others have ridden mules successfully with horse saddles; although the mule expert insists that like their legs and hooves and heads, all mules get their back from the donkey and, along with different shaped scapula, also, have the 3 bumps towards the tail, from which the hurt probably caused to her back, he says, since my saddle and pad neither having an opening there at the rear for those bumps. That seems to make some sense, so I'm now worried, also, about my smaller little black mule (both scapula and end of spine), since for 5 years I've been putting the horse saddle on her when kids come, which has only been once a summer, so have to hope no damage done when I rode along with new mule and we went up and down hills. Guess will tell kids no more riding, mules only for packing on our hiking trips. (That dun in back is our 3rd mule, Norwegian Fjord molly, 25yo. We love her packing ethic, but this spring she can hardly put that back left leg down, vet says ligament injured, now atrophied over winter, so won't pack anymore. Very sad.)


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

I have two friends that ride mules in endurance. Both of them ride in horse saddles, but they are careful to make sure the horse saddles fit. One friend rides in a treeless saddle. The other friend recently completed her first 50 mile endurance ride.


















These two friends have gone hundreds of miles and hours in horse saddles with no damage to their mules.

Also, you should consult @george the mule , because he knows a whole lot about riding mules!


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I think he is trying simply to sell himself to you. Maybe he does believe what he’s selling, but I’ve been around a lot of mules ridden in horse saddles that fit well and had zero issues health wise. I think that sometimes people get really invested in an idea and then stick to it no matter the evidence elsewhere.

Now, this mule you bought has been toting humans for her long life. Why in the world, if she is what you thought when you bought her, would an 18 yr old mule just buck you off? Why would you change what you are doing with the other mule that has always worked for you? Don’t bow to someone. Take what they offer that works for you, and leave the rest behind. Get a saddle that fits both animals well, and don’t worry about the rest of what has been said. If the saddle fits, it fits.

I will say in your picture it looks like you don’t have a hobble strap for your front and back cinch. Of course it could be out of view. That will get you bucked off a gentle horse or mule. It will allow the back cinch to scoot back and flank the animal. You can tie it even with a piece of twine, just make sure it is connected securely.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

Thank you both for the reassurances, great pictures and sensible thoughts. Nice to know that mules will accept many saddles. I'd love to see myself like those ladies, going out with riding friend, but that probably won't happen, so I'm accepting that packing will be enough for now.

Unfortunately, it's like trying to unring a bell with what is now in my head, can't unhear it; can't unsee what I've watched on the many videos. Will probably just consider these as good pack animals and be happy with that for now, as the mule expert turned out to be right about letting her have too much pasture, so I'm trusting he knows his stuff.

She was easy to catch for 3 weeks (as I always take them in after about 4 hours), then suddenly, when it appeared that she was becoming top of the pecking order, she decided not to let me catch and take her back to the corral. Seemed very strange to me that suddenly she was not the nice friendly mule I'd known and once back in the corral was not allowing me to catch her there, either, laying ears back, acting as if might bite, until I finally got her into a smaller stall area, then she relented, haltered as usual. 

The mule expert told me she had decided that once fat and happy, she no longer needed me. He told me she and I needed to learn to communicate better, with me becoming the leader, which involves lots of ground work, particularly before I would ride her. That's why I'm believing what he says and deciding that the time I have available may be just enough to work with her as a pack animal and not advance to the cues and communication needed for riding.

The mule expert clearly has huge amount of experience and appears to give many clinics; perhaps has seen too many accidents and is too cautious, but it sounds as if he wants to be sure I'm safe, which I appreciate, so if I decide to eventually ride her, then I will probably get his saddle and britchen, as our saddle did hurt her back, so for that reason can't use it. (We do have a hobble strap between the cinches, but clearly the back cinch is so loose as to be worthless and he says needs to be the wool-web style of cinch.) This writing process has helped clarify my thinking about how much I am willing to do and what risks to take. Again, thanks to all.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm very lucky. The friend who rode my new mule has offered to take both mules in her trailer to the vet a couple hours away so they can get either x-rays or ultrasound of scapula, whichever vet feels would give us the best views. Seems to be the only way we'll be certain that we should be trying to ride them after using horse saddles. Probably would be good to do all the leg type x-rays that were recommended before purchase, too. We're trying to get an appointment during week of July 18th, so I'll report back after that.

In the meantime, I'm doing the groundwork from video, about 15 minutes each day, and learning things about her (jumped at first when being sacked out, but is calming more each day) that I'm glad I know before we go packing or try riding. I'm grateful now that my first two little mules were easier and calmer, even though it didn't feel like that at the time.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm curious why having a scapula xray would make a difference in riding an equine. 

From what I've read, it is important to keep saddles placed back far enough that the tree points do not interfere with the scapula on every horse or mule. 

From what I've seen on the forum, many people place saddles too far forward and many horses have been ridden that way. But regardless of whether that has caused some injury, as long as the animal is sound the important factor would be that the saddle is always placed clear of the scapula from now on.

I believe it would not be important for me to know if a horse I bought had a prior scapula issue from poor saddle placement, because my saddles would be fitted properly and it would not interfere with or affect the scapula.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

I've had quite a discussion about scapula damage with the mule expert. He's adamant that mules will only cooperate if comfortable. Says horses will often put themselves into uncomfortable places when owners' request, such as charging into battle, but that a mule will not do that. Will do things when feels owner is the leader and mule itself is comfortable or believes the situation is safe, which is why they get the reputation for being stubborn when are really being self-protective.

Apparently, in his many years of working with mules and seeing x-rays when people wondered why the mule had suddenly bucked them off after years of cooperation, he told me even a pea-sized bit of damage to the scapula could cause them a great deal of pain if the saddle slipped forward when going down a hill. He said that often happens due to people not readjusting britchen before heading down steep hills. 

His video about saddle fitting for a mule, tells you that the mule gets its scapula from the donkey parent and the front edge of the scapula is thinner than what a horse has and, therefore, more prone to damage from an ill-fitting saddle. If I should ever get a grandchild who would want to ride with me, we would go up our hills and have some steep downhills, as we did when my friend rode with me using that horse saddled I'd purchased.

Mule seemed to do fine, and I'm happy ride ended safely for both of us, but so that I can be more careful for the future, as I'm older than my friend and without as good a seat, then I want to know what I might be getting into and try to prevent any accidents for myself. Luckily, I told my husband, since having no kids to put through college (only stepkids, which he was responsible for), I can use the funds I have for spending on animals, so long as not endangering my retirement. That's why decided to take my "really good mule" to the vet hospital and try to make sure she is safe for riding someday when she and I have learned how to "communicate" well with each other.

On one of his 400 videos, available on YouTube, the expert says he'd treat each new mule as if it had no training at all, since not knowing what kind of training it did have, even if seller says was really good. I was very resistant to that idea, saying I didn't have the time, it wasn't my life's priority, was book Superiority of the Mule that had convinced me to get mules and fact that family preferred work ethic for packing, but expert finally convinced me this would be worthwhile. 

Had read before, maybe on this site, maybe in one of many books, that it is good to work with any equine a bit every day, so recalled that 5 years ago, I had been doing that when got an expensive pony for grand-daughter (since sold, as she had no time or real interest for riding) and the first two mules (maybe why I think they so good); but didn't seem to want to do that anymore, expected this one to be good since paid more (the first two were inexpensive, almost in "rescue" category). However, lifelong learning supposed to be so good for brain that I'm now getting myself out for 15 minutes each day in corral to work with her using come-along and it's turned out to be more enjoyable than I expected. If I survive as hoped to be Healthy2aHundred, then you'll know when reading memoir that the mule training turned out to be successful.


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