# What would you pay? TB X Andalusian/Oldenburg



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

Here is a picture of the horse...


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

It sounds like what you are paying for is the conformation, movement, and temperament of the horse itself. I would offer on that basis. Warmbloods seem to carry a big surcharge, how much in this case I'm not experienced enough to know, but if he was not a warmblood (and I'm not exactly sure if he qualifies, either), in my part of the world he'd be in the neighborhood of $1-2K, depending on how well he shows himself off. You can barely give away unstarted unregistered prospects around here. 

(The horse in my avatar was given to me as an unstarted 4 year old -- after being on the market for a year without a bite, she was headed for the auction yard. She is a purebred but paperless Morgan.)


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Horses are a dime a dozen in this state with tons of "rescues" everywhere...
So, not to sound nasty...
The horse is nothing, has done nothing and no proof it came from anything "technically" that did anything either.
Except for color, sometimes that is worth money...
The horse is a horse, period.
Decent looks, nothing great though. I would _not_ drool over this grey either.

Honestly,....
Me, I would_* not*_ pay more than $500.00,_ that is five hundred dollars for him, *maximum*._
I would not pay more than what going rate is from a rescue.
Un-started horses from rescues are often cheap or free. 
Under saddle, started they are cheap, real cheap. 
Finished riding horses are not usually more than $1200 and that is from a owner-surrender background, not a emaciated rescue of questionable background.
So....
A 3 year old_ grade_ horse.
No real training started.
Has OK conformation but nothing earth shattering good or bad, just OK.
He has no papers and that also makes it questionable about the parentage.
Parents were nothing fantastic themselves nor produced much from either of them...
There is nothing there that makes him worth more than that, sorry.
Because you want to do dressage with him makes him not worth more money.
You could adopt a mustang with these looks for $125.00 in our state. 
Sorry, he truly is not worth much.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

Love the honesty and in agreement. Owner wants too much. Trust me I am not interested in paying a ton. Here is my $1800 registered paint that I got 6 years ago and with some solid breeding lines. Pretty darn fancy don't you think?


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I was serious about the mustangs for $125.
They are in Palm Beach County, Loxahatchee is the town.
They have some nice horses available.
Basics of ground work done and some are starting training, some just starting gentling.
Good sized, nice if not better than nice movers...wonderful temperament.
Get hooked up with some of the states FB horse groups and see what is around.
There are a lot of diamond in the rough possibilities just waiting for a new home.
People thinking $$$ and getting what a horse is worth, _{next to nothing} _are to different things.
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:..


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

I will check it out. I am not an expensive warmblood fan, and always looking for temperament and work ethic first and foremost. Thank you for the info!


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Andys are notorious for being slow to mature and looking a bit fugly as they get there. He is worth what someone is willing to pay for him. Depending on the bloodlines of the stallion that may be higher. 

FL and the east coast tends to have pockets of bigger money horses particularly for dressage prospects. I have seen Andy/warmbloods prospects start at 7500-15k with big name pedigrees behind them and a good quality start. 

Being that his sire is now a gelding...and probably doesn't have proof of making champion offspring, and his dam is a tb, his price goes down somewhat. But then it starts to depend on the horse. 

You get close to Ocala or Wellington, get a quality video and pictures and get him going properly...Price goes up.


----------



## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

I'd be in the same boat as @horselovinguy here. In my area I'd say the horse would go for $400 or so. I bought my purebred tb for $750 if I remember correctly, and he is registered, came with his pedigree and other papers, some tack, a nice halter, a four-pair prof. choice boots (!!) and half of my first months board at the facility the rescue approved for a trial period. The gal also hauled him just over 40 miles from the acreage he was on all the way to the barn, so that was included as well. If I hadn't gotten _anything _with him (no tack, no board, no papers, unregistered, etc), I just show up with a trailer, pop him in, write a check and go, I would not have paid more than $325. And even that's pushing it... but I really like him lol


----------



## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

I'll throw in my opinion from the other side of the pond - the seller may well find someone who will pay a stupid amount of money for "One of them fancy PRE horses". In my opinion, I wouldn't pay more than £500 ($600) for it unbacked and unproven, with no decent bloodlines or extraordinary conformation. However, we used to have horses on livery where I went to college, and we used to have some Andalusians there. ALL of these horses were by the same stallion, and had the same twisted legs, and yet the breeder could sell these for £2000-£3000 a pop ($2500-$3500) to the right unwitting buyer, just because they were registered Andies.

I think you would make the right choice in passing. As horselovinguy said, you can get rescues for very little, or a decent, backed horse with good conformation for quite little if you know what you are looking for. I recently saw a 10yo KWPN mare on an auction page on FB, good flatwork, jumped a 1.10m course, start bid £500 - didn't meet the reserve. The horse market is pants right now on both sides of the pond (as far as I can tell), and you can get yourself a steal if you keep your eyes open.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

His mixed breeding and the fact that his sire isn't doing anything outstanding in any sphere reduces his value by a lot but if he's got the right action, good conformation (can't tell from that photo) and as you say, a good work ethic, that will count for a lot more than if he was a scrubby non descript horse of mixed breeding that was still unbroken or had major problems
A video would help


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree with the rest. I think if you're looking at spending under 5k you can get a MUCH nicer horse with more training under it's belt. Babies take a lot, especially 3yr olds then waiting for them to mature into their mind takes a while too. Baby brain is very different from a mature-green horse brain. I actually find it's a lot easier to develop a green horse than a baby most of the time. Not just that but with youngsters it's very difficult to project what their true temperament will eventually become. At the moment he looks like he'll be weak behind with a downhill tendency and my guess is he has a poor canter that struggles in rhythm and a downhill tendency but in his trot, even from a simple picture I can see even if he sat behind and lifted in front he wont have greatly improved movement, I think he'll be limited in reach and range of motion but that's my speculation. You can get something off the track with more ability and movement. And I'm sure the owners aren't willing to "give" him away. Sometimes people think a horse is worth a lot of money because of a "label." I notice when someone says the horse is of spanish decent the price automatically jumps up. 

I also feel when you buy a horse, you should get the best one your can afford. It doesn't mean you have to have a "fancy, designer" bred horse but that you have a healthy horse, you enjoy working with and is suitable to your needs. Sound, healthy, able and willing.

Like this mare. If I could have a 2nd. I'd give her a look. I love a good thoroughbred and her canter is really nice. I think she's going to be really nice. She has a kind eye and appears willing and with a good work ethic. I imagine she's a big mover and pretty awkward/not well balanced, so a lot to organize but of all the thoroughbreds I've seen she's my favorite so far.

Caterina?s Secret | New Vocations

Just an example if you're looking for a dressage prospect.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

I don't fancy the looks, except for the colour, nor the conformation of the horse. No papers, so wouldn't pay more than 500 euros, if the horse would be on the market where I live.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

His meat price is about $600-650. Anyone offering less than that is no better than the killbuyer. That is why good horses go to slaughter. You should be ashamed of yourselves. 

He is young, hopefully healthy and could be a lovely horse. As a breeder, I would have not wanted to have bred him out of an unproven stallion, but he is still be worth more than that.

Particularly pushed towards the correct market!


----------



## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> His meat price is about $600-650. Anyone offering less than that is no better than the killbuyer. That is why good horses go to slaughter. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> He is young, hopefully healthy and could be a lovely horse. As a breeder, I would have not wanted to have bred him out of an unproven stallion, but he is still be worth more than that.
> 
> Particularly pushed towards the correct market!


Whilst I agree that he could be a nice horse if marketed the correct way, in my opinion, the prices suggested here are not the fault of anyone posted, but just indicative of the sorry state of the horse industry right now.

DISCLAIMER: all opinions are my own and come from the UK, where the market MAY be different.

I don't believe anyone should pay more than the market worth of the horse. Is this lower than the meat value? Sometimes. If the owner desperately doesn't want the horse to go to the meat man, then they might have to accept a very low price for a horse. When I lived in the area, you could pick up very sweet, unhandled Dartmoor horses straight off the moors for £50 ($60) for a mare and foal. Overbreeding is rife over here, and many people are selling horses for bottom of the barrel prices, just to get rid.

Is it a pleasant side of the industry? No. But, in purely selfish terms, as a buyer, if you can pick up a horse for a steal, why should you not? I'm sure I could go to Wales or Ireland right now and pick up a sweet, unbroken, decently put together cob for less than what it would cost me to travel it back to where I live, and that would certainly be less than what the meat man would pay for it.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Unfortunately, when the horse market tanks, then the meat price does set the bottom range for hrose prices in general, esp for un broke prospects, with no particular breeding
When horse prices went way down here, due to the same old supply and demand, plus tough economy, when you went to an all breed horse sale, well started horses sold for just above meat price, and depending on how well the horse was going, breeding, ect, went up from there
Privately, of course, an owner/breeder can set the bottom limit of what he is willing to sell the hrose for.
I have also gone to all breed horse sales, where some people that jumped into the hrose business, were just cutting their loss. Many had bought very well bred horses,but with unproven direct parents, thinking that buyers would just be lined up, by that fact alone, snapping up those young prospects for top dollar
Soon realizing the money needed to get those hroses going well, maybe even shown, and not able to do so themselves, some of those breeder hopefuls, just decided to cut their losses, and I have seen some very well bred prospects at times, going through the auction ring.
Unfortunately, in that scenario, you need at least two people , besides the owner, willing to pay a good price for that horse,to get that final bid up there
Privately, you can put a price on a prospect, decide you won't take less, and perhaps either keep investing feed and care, or even training, which will give access to a broader market, but also needs the owner to put more money up front
One of the reasons I learned to train the hroses we raised, and promoted the stallion, and also often the mare, under saddle. Very easy to breed horses, thus way more competition, trying to sell prospects, versus horses at least started well.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes, meat price is bottom price. At it is currently 0.60-.75/lb

If a person wants to private sale something cheaper that is fine, but that is BEGGING for their horse to then to be flipped to the auction for a profit. And is foolish. 

The market is what a person makes it. If a fool sells there horse cheap, THEY are bringing the market down. People are still willing to spend money on decent horses. Particularly with certain lines. 

If they can prove the Andy, he can moves well and is broke properly... he can be sold for money. Particularly ON THE EAST COAST !!! Though his lack of papers will hurt him. He could probably go AWS.

That is where the dressage market is. It lags in the middle of the country. But prove this horse can go around the dressage arena and he is worth way more than $600. That is the market for this horse.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Dehda01 said:


> His meat price is about $600-650. Anyone offering less than that is no better than the killbuyer. That is why good horses go to slaughter. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> He is young, hopefully healthy and could be a lovely horse. As a breeder, I would have not wanted to have bred him out of an unproven stallion, but he is still be worth more than that.
> 
> Particularly pushed towards the correct market!


Reality sucks when it knocks on the door....
You have a point about what he _may be worth_ with training _*and *_proof of show record.
This horse though is a nothing, done nothing as of yet, is un-registered and his breeding is not top-notch names of recognition.
All reasons to_* not *_pay much for such a unknown horse....:icon_frown:

_Why should anyone pay more than he is worth?_
In the state of Florida $500_* is*_ all he is worth at this point...less from the meat buyer.
In a market that is flooded with nicely trained horses, now add in those that are neglected, starving and thrown away putting a fair price on him could also get him that wonderful home.
That market is affected by the overabundance of horseflesh. Some owners just need to cut the bleed and get out so sell for cheap...
And with all the not quality animals born every year that is not going to change very soon.

Because he is a "Andie or Warmblood" ....truly means nothing.
Because a claim of pedigree does not mean he is from that stallion or mare either...no papers which can help with price.
He is grade and his price also reflects that.
It is the animal itself, their attitude, their build and what you the prospective owner is willing to spend.
I would keep my money in my pocket if he was more than $500. That actually is more than the kill buyer would pay for him, a lot more to fill the weight limit on his truck.
At auction...bet he would go through the sale for $250.
The sales have been putting through trained, sound 5 year old with performance breeding and show records for $500 a head. Happened the other day again at the local livestock sale...nice horse went for $450.00. Scary!

BTW.... the OP is not far from the "dressage market" of Wellington or Ocala...about 2 hours easy drive either way from their avatar location.
Those searching eyes and horse-world tentacles have already seen this horse and passed...
There is something those "in the know" know and saw besides price...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Yes, meat price is bottom price. At it is currently 0.60-.75/lb
> 
> If a person wants to private sale something cheaper that is fine, but that is BEGGING for their horse to then to be flipped to the auction for a profit. And is foolish.
> 
> ...


 The market is what someone is willing to pay for a horse.
Sure, get him going under saddle, prove him, and he is worth more. However, if the seller can;t do that herself, then the seller has to put some money up front, hoping they can re coup it
As I said before, prospects are often a dime a dozen, for this very reason
IF you have a prospEct by parents, both proven, then you have a chance of getting a good price, even in this market, but for a horse not started,from parents that have done not much, not very likley, unless you get very lucky


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

A paperless horse is worthless where I live. He is not started, parents are not proven in the sport the OP is going for, so yes, it's going by pure imagination. Doesn't do much what breed the parents are, if the horse has no papers to prove the origins.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I truly doubt he is priced anywhere where y'all want him to be. Otherwise he would have been scooped up by a flipper. He would be an easy flip with his age( depending on a low price), breeding ( as long as it is proveable) as long as he matures over 16h isn't a moron, and is a good mover. 

I have multiple friends who do just that down in FL, ( buy low, bring east) depending on the horse ship them around the coast or keep them in FL. I have sold horses throughout the East.

Based on his breed, I bet he looks totally different in 2 years.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it's worth going to look at him. He is not mature yet, but I think time and good riding will bring out a real nice horse 

Around here, anything with Andalusian in it will command a bit more. Just a bit. Unbroken ,unregistered with unproven sire, around here he'd be at about $3000.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

The big question though is IF...
_If he is Andalusian....:think:

There is no way to know, period.
Just someone making a claim of a cross breeding.

He is a un-started 3 year old gray horse with a so-so decent build, period.
To me that is *not* worth $3,000.00!
No way no how!

You can adopt a papered OTTB of good bone and conformation with training basics well instilled already. Easily over 15 hands, many available in the 16 - 17+ hand size.
Saddle broke, backed, and ridden some...
Dynamite mover and looks to boot for a pittance...
That I would spend some money on
This one the OP wrote of, sadly NO!

The OP passed on the horse.
Personally I think a wise decision since it was alluded that the price was way over the $500 price range.
:runninghorse2:....
_


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

horselovinguy said:


> I was serious about the mustangs for $125.
> They are in Palm Beach County, Loxahatchee is the town.




I am in Loxahatchee and have never heard of Mustangs for sale for $125. Where are they?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It just shows how different things are regionally. Prices for everything are very high here. I am always amazed when I here prices quoted from members in other areas of U S


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

updownrider said:


> I am in Loxahatchee and have never heard of Mustangs for sale for $125. Where are they?


Go to Facebook and search for horse sites on their site in Florida.
My understanding is we, members here, are not permitted to give links for that site here...

What I know of this place is...
Rescue.
BLM branded mustangs off the federal ranges.
Background check and strict standards of compliance for stabling and care.
$125 application fee.
Horse if approved you "adopt" for a year. After that year is up you then go from adopter to owner status.
There is some kind of clause about selling but I don't know particulars about it.

Good luck.
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

He'd probably go for about 2k where I live, if nothing else but for his color. Color is very expensive here. I actually really like the looks of him. He looks a bit wonky in some areas but I think it's a combo of his age and the camera angle.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Grey is not a color, but a modifier that causes horses to loose color, having colored hair pigment replaced by non pigmented, until maximum expression-white horse
Besides that, the greying gene is associated with a high incidence of melanoma
I would never buy a grey horse on purpose, though I have one, having bred by transported semen-long story!


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

horselovinguy said:


> Go to Facebook and search for horse sites on their site in Florida.




I don't know what you mean by search for horse sites on 'their' site. But it is ok, I was only curious, I am not looking to buy or rescue a Mustang at this time. I have my hands full with what I have!


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

You cannot be comparing buying a rank unhandled BLM mustang to a 3year raised horse? Even comparing a OTTB isn't apples to apples because of all the baggage (retraining and often health issues) that comes with the TBs.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Smilie said:


> *Grey is not a color, but a modifier* that causes horses to loose color, having colored hair pigment replaced by non pigmented, until maximum expression-white horse
> Besides that, the greying gene is associated with a high incidence of melanoma
> I would never buy a grey horse on purpose, though I have one, having bred by transported semen-long story!


Maybe in theory, but if someone asks the colour of my horse, I say she is a dapple grey, instead of black - the colour she was born as.


----------



## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

I would value an un-started crossbreed horse at $0. Horses are a dime a dozen in this country right now. Over the past two years alone I have been given three registered QH’s and a purebred TB. If you are going to actually consider paying for a horse of mixed brood lines it should be ready to ride and compete on.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I kind of just skimmed through the replies, but figured I'd add in my thoughts.

Honestly, I like him. I think he has a very nice, soft, willing face that speaks of possibly being very compliant once he starts saddle training. I think the camera angle isn't doing him any justice nor is the fact he's at the awkward age where EVERYTHING looks awkward, especially since two of his three breeds are slow maturing breeds. Would he make it to Grand Prix Dressage? Well, who really knows. Horses surprise you. Sometimes they overcome their conformation with a heart greater than most. My mare was the UGLIEST yearling I've seen when I was sent pictures of her the week we were to pick her up. I'd bet 99%+ of the people on this forum would have given a great big HECK NO if I'd have posted a thread like this, especially for her price ($1500). Yet every single person who has met her, ridden her, or handled her in some form or fashion would fall over themselves to buy her if I were to sell (I've had people point blank tell me to let them know if I sell; will never happen).

Seriously, I'd go look. There is no harm in seeing if his mind is there. I don't see anything that says he'd break down in a few years. He honestly looks like he'd be a fun little horse to work with. I much prefer the babies to started horses IF you have the knowledge to start a baby. Mustangs, OTTBs, and other started horses could have tremendous baggage that proves to be more of a challenge than you had anticipated or wanted.

But that's my $0.02. I'll attach a picture of my mare that I was sent before heading to get her, and the last conformation type photo we had taken in October. Sometimes a horse just moves better than their conformation says they will. Take my advice with a grain of salt, but I would go look at this horse in a heartbeat if I were just looking for a fun little horse to dabble in Dressage.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess I should clarify-of course you call a horse that has turned grey-grey, but it is not, JMO, desired , like some dilution genes that produce palominos, duns, buckskins, gruellos-ect, where indeed that color often fetches a higher price
In fact, here, very often, grey causes a negative influence, far as marketability.
What price is being asked for this horse anyway?
Is there proof that he is half Sporthorse, as we are talking of a half bred, so not to forget he is half TB
Can the OP train the horse herself, to assess potential, or does she need to invest money? If the latter, can she get the money back, should the horse prove to not be what she wants?
Lastly, I know nothing concerning papers needed to show in various dressage venues, but I would certainly wish to know, if that horse could be shown at those venues


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe in Canada in Western Pleasure (I think that is your discipline, smile? I am sorry if I am wrong) grey is not desirable, but in the US, a well turned out grey horse in the show ring can be very desirable. A grey can really stand out. 

As for melanoma tumors, I can't count how many grey horses in over 50 years I have know that have not had one, or lived comfortably with one. The only horse I know that was euthanized directly because of melanoma was a chestnut.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes, where I am- grey is a HUGE selling point. If/when I was looking for a horse to resell, a big grey gelding was alwaysthe fastest flip. Dark is the next best. But I am doing dressage horses/low hunters/foxhunters. 

People like a unicorn and greys are spectacular when properly clean and put together!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Considering how many top jumping, eventing and dressage horses are grey I certainly wouldn't reject one because it was grey!!!
I have two greys, my only complaint about them is that they seem to be 'stain magnets'
I have had greys that developed melanoma's but I've had greys that didn't. I've also had greys that lived to a good old age with melanoma's and didn't 'die' because of them.
I certainly wouldn't reject or devalue this horse because of its colour!!!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Maybe in Canada in Western Pleasure (I think that is your discipline, smile? I am sorry if I am wrong) grey is not desirable, but in the US, a well turned out grey horse in the show ring can be very desirable. A grey can really stand out.
> 
> As for melanoma tumors, I can't count how many grey horses in over 50 years I have know that have not had one, or lived comfortably with one. The only horse I know that was euthanized directly because of melanoma was a chestnut.


Well, of course, first of all, many of baroque breeds are homozgous for grey to begin with
Meat buyers pay less for greys, but of course, not the market we are taking about
Not saying there are not people that will buy grey stock horses, because they like the looks, esp if that greying is not rapid, so along time where that horse has that attractive non complete graying look 
It is also true, that horses like the Lipizzaners , where almost all are grey, have developed some sort of genetics that makes melanoma less 'malignant in greys. That is also why, non grey horses, who get melanoma way less then greys, also usually then have a more aggressive/malignant form
That is all available on Google, as having a grey horse, and being a lab tech, I did some research
The reason I don't purposely own grey horses, is first,because I like to avoid possible health issues if possible, and even if melanoma in grey horses usually is not super invasive, it can be, and they do have a higher incident.\
Secondly, it has nothing to do with western pl, as I have also shown in reining, HUS trail, games, working cowhorse , but the fact that I raised Appaloosas, and the greying gene kills coat patterns
Charlie was born loud colored-chestnut, blanket, blaze, high socks, and within little over a year she was white
No, she is not homozgous for grey as her dam certainly did not have a greying gene, which is expressed, if present
Unfortunately, i bred to the stallion, by transported semen, and by his ad in the App Journal, where he appeared to be a black leopard'
He is most likely white by now. The greying gene can act at a different rate of expression, in Appaloosas, between their base color and any spots


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

agree with @Tazzie. by the way, Tazzie, your mare has become quite lovely by years of correct riding . I think the same could happen to this horse in question.


----------



## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

Dehda01 said:


> Yes, where I am- grey is a HUGE selling point. If/when I was looking for a horse to resell, a big grey gelding was alwaysthe fastest flip. Dark is the next best. But I am doing dressage horses/low hunters/foxhunters.
> 
> People like a unicorn and greys are spectacular when properly clean and put together!


A dapple gray where I live is automatically at least 2k. Especially a dark one. There is currently one on CL for $5500, if he was chestnut they'd be lucky to get $3000 out of him. He's a QH/Percheron mix. 

The horse in question looks like he has some dapples on him. Idk, there is just something about him I _really_ like. To each their own, I suppose.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> agree with @Tazzie. by the way, Tazzie, your mare has become quite lovely by years of correct riding . I think the same could happen to this horse in question.


Thank you  and I thought the same thing for this boy. Heart can really trump a lot of the conformation. People look at Izzie and think "that mare would be ok for collection, but not extension", then they see her go. With the right attitude and the right training I think this boy could be a fun horse to work with. That is, IF she's up for the training a baby (which I'm kind of guessing she is since she's looking at unbroke 3 year olds.)


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> That is all available on Google, as having a grey horse, and being a lab tech, I did some research


This disappoints me to read. That block of text you posted was from Google? Anyone can Google to read about melanoma in horses. I shared my 50+ years of personal experience with melanoma in horses, which includes greys and chestnut. I was a vet tech so my experience is not limited to only horses owned.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Grey is not a color, but a modifier that causes horses to loose color, having colored hair pigment replaced by non pigmented, until maximum expression-white horse
> Besides that, the greying gene is associated with a high incidence of melanoma
> I would never buy a grey horse on purpose, though I have one, having bred by transported semen-long story!


Gray is not a premium color around here. I agree it is a debit not an asset -- turns white, which means looks dirty all the time, melanoma-prone . . . some grays pass through a gorgeous dappley period but it isn't for long. That's when you should put them on the market!

Some duns, palomino, flashier paints and appys, creams and pearls and champagnes, silver dapples, those will get you, if not a premium, at least an easier sale. 

Personally I prefer plain dark horses. Then all you look at is the horse.

I agree that going to take a look at him you might see things not in the photo.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It's an awful photo and the horse is a 'late developer' so the only way to make a decision is to go and see him. His breed mix should actually produce a nice sort of horse that's well suited for dressage (subject to his parentage being 'correct to type) 
If I'm buying a horse for something like dressage or jumping I'm more interested in its temperament and how well it moves/performs than I am about actual names on a pedigree. Even as an unbroken 3 year old you should be able to get a feel for those things


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Where are all these nice free or almost free horses? Every time I see a nice horse it is at least 3000-5000. I often find a lot of faults, unregistered and 12yrs old! Been thinking I'm too picky :icon_rolleyes:

I rather like that horse too, but would need to see it move before buying. Prospects always seem to sell for more; looking at potential instead of actual ability/quality of gaits can be a costly mistake.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

OP, if you like this horse, you should go and see him personally. Only you can evaluate if he could serve the purpose you are looking a horse for, and what you would be ready to pay for it.

Me commenting his looks was irrelevant because people have a different taste. 

Also, in reality, mind is more important than looks anyway, and money can't buy happiness. Some beautiful, expensively bred sport horses have been physically broken early, sometimes before they're career even started, and now serve as pretty decorations. Seen also oh so pretty horses that are way too complicated to work with.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> This disappoints me to read. That block of text you posted was from Google? Anyone can Google to read about melanoma in horses. I shared my 50+ years of personal experience with melanoma in horses, which includes greys and chestnut. I was a vet tech so my experience is not limited to only horses owned.


Okay, you want details
The greying gene, keeps the melanin from being used by the hair shaft, thus it accumulates on the skin. Melanoma arises out of melanocytes
Some statistics

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12638791
Yes, melanoma in horses is usually not highly malignant in horses , as it is in humans, esp in grey horses

From below link:

Since roughly 75% of Gray horses that are older than 15 years of age develop a benign form of melanoma that can transform into a malignancy, the Gray horse presents medical researchers with an interesting model for learning more about the molecular pathway that leads to tumor development in humans. So the team identified precisely what this Gray mutation looks like and investigated how it upregulates the production of the two neighboring genes, STX17 and NR4A3. They also investigated whether this mutation is present in three human melanoma cell lines (figure 4);

Behold The Pale Horse: The Genetics of Color and Cancer ? Living the Scientific Life (Scientist, Interrupted)

I mean, these statics are significant to me, even if many grey horses never get the invasive form of melanoma

'Up to 80% of gray horses older than 15 years will develop at least one melanoma, a type of cancerous tumor'
from this link

Don't Ignore Melanomas | TheHorse.com

By google, I was not referring to alternative sites, blogs, but to actual veterinary sites, and sorry I did not look the info up this morning, but I had chores to run.

It is a fact that melanoma has a high incidence in grey horses. That is a scientific fact. It is also true that some adaptation has occurred in grey horses, which makes the invasive form of malignant melanoma less common in them, as when melanoma strikes a non grey horse
Now, if anyone just wishes to ignore those statistics, purposely own a grey horse, hoping they don't follow the odds, and that if they do, that melanoma remains fairly benign, that is their choice, but does not change facts, inspite of personal experience
Heck, I hope Charlie is the exception! She is now 12, and so far , so good.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The horsecom site is worth reading. Comments are from vets, not lay people
Take home message from that article\

'No matter how rare cancer is in horses, a working hypothesis is that equine melanoma is a malignancy," he explains. "The veterinary community and horse owners need to appreciate this and treat melanoma as such. We need to raise the bar so that equine practitioners and the general public understand that melanoma is not a benign thing, like a mole."


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I am a vet tech. I work with melanomas in greys all the time. I have 5 greys currently. Have probably bred 20-30? since I have had three heterozygous grey stallions. Melanomas because they as cells behaving badly are cancer, but typically not malignant. They CAN be inconvenient when on the rectum or genitals of horses, but are typically VERY slow growing and horses are MOST likely to die of alternative causes... With their melanoma... Not BECAUSE OF IT!!! In rare cases, it can be internal, and that can be more of a problem. 

Melanomas can occur in any color horse, and I lost a CHESTNUT horse to melanoma once. 

Certain lines families of horses are more likely to have complications... Or have melanomas in certain regions... Some warmblood lines, Andy.... Yadda yadda yadda. Good breeders should be trying to pay attention to causes of death.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Okay, you want details


No where did I ask for details. I have and shared my own personal facts. I said I was disappointed you Googled - that is, searched the Internet - for your information. I won't read your post with more Internet searched links but maybe someone else with a negative attitude towards greys will appreciate your effort.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> I am a vet tech. I work with melanomas in greys all the time. I have 5 greys currently. Have probably bred 20-30? since I have had three heterozygous grey stallions. Melanomas because they as cells behaving badly are cancer, but typically not malignant. They CAN be inconvenient when on the rectum or genitals of horses, but are typically VERY slow growing and horses are MOST likely to die of alternative causes... With their melanoma... Not BECAUSE OF IT!!! In rare cases, it can be internal, and that can be more of a problem.
> 
> Melanomas can occur in any color horse, and I lost a CHESTNUT horse to melanoma once.
> 
> Certain lines families of horses are more likely to have complications... Or have melanomas in certain regions... Some warmblood lines, Andy.... Yadda yadda yadda. Good breeders should be trying to pay attention to causes of death.


 As someone who has worked in oncology, there is no such thing as cancer and not malignant. The two words are synominous in oncology A cancer might not be very invasive, as say, human basal cell skin cancer, but by the very term cancer, malignant is understood
A growth is either benign or malignant-that is what you determine, looking at those cells under a microscope
I already stated that solid color horses can also get melanoma, BUT the incident is way more rare then in greys
Yes, I also mentioned, that over time, greys have developed some controlling mechanism, that often limits the invasiveness of that melanoma, versus a non grey horse that is the odd one getting melanoma, and not having developed some natural 'resistance' far as invasiveness., so yes, a non grey horse is more likely to die of wide spread metastasizes
If a melanoma occurs internally, blocking teh bowel, for example , the horse can still die
I have no problem with those people that don't mind the increased risk of melanoma, hoping it will be not very aggressive, if it does occur, chosing the 'color, over that risk, and I just stated my view, as to why I would never purposely buy a grey horse


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> No where did I ask for details. I have and shared my own personal facts. I said I was disappointed you Googled - that is, searched the Internet - for your information. I won't read your post with more Internet searched links but maybe someone else with a negative attitude towards greys will appreciate your effort.


No, I did not need to google the internet, to know that greys have an increased risk of melanoma. That is something I found out ages ago, when first starting to breed horses. Also, because I worked in oncolgy, cancer and various triggers have always interested me, whether that cancer occurs in humans or in animals]
The google reference, was in response to that non grey horse, dying of melanoma, while melanoma is often less aggressive in greys, then in non greys, though more frequent
Since I heard that before, I once set out to find why that is so. I did find detailed genetic information, as to why melanoma is less aggressive, in greys, very often,but not always, then in non greys
That was the info I suggested you google, as I did not have time to find it this morning


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, I;m being realistic, as to scientific facts, and not being negative towards greys
Kinda funny,often the same people who would condemn anyone breeding a hypp positive horse, become so defensive when the plain fact is put out there, that yes, the greying gene predisposes a horse to melanoma. If that increased risk, does not bother you-fine. It does bother me, so I just gave my reasons
I can only assume, that grey horses demand a higher price, because many of those people are unaware of the increased risk for melanoma in grey horses


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Anyone wishing to get into the histology of melanoma in horses, there is the fact, that unlike in humans, Melanomas in horses can be benign , as well a malignant
Once malignant, they are a cancer.
There are also at least four types of melanomas in horses, which might explain the benign nature in some. Perhaps, the forms are in certain fa,ily lines. I don't breed grey horses, so will leave that to those that do
For those that wish to read more, on types of melanomas in horses, here is that scientific link
Of course, all horses that are colored, have melanocytes, thus can get melanoma. Grey horses have an increased rate of melanomas, for the simple fact that the greying gene prevents the hair shafts from taking up those pigmented cells, which then accumulate on the skin, thus the increased risk-having more melanocyes in that skin layer

Equine Melanocytic Tumors: A Retrospective Study of 53 Horses (1988 to 1991) - Valentine - 2008 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I never considered that a grey could be classified as a valued/pricier/unusual color, but I guess some folks see them that way. 

IMO buying color means an appaloosa, palomino, paint, grulla, chocolate, red chocolate, buckskin or dun. Something that is a bit tricky to reproduce in an attractive pattern. Greys don't really have desired pattern, because eventually they all turn white. 

Many breeders sell off a foal young that they see starting to grey before an unaware buyer realizes the foal will grey out.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Bull-pucky. 

Working in oncology you should know the terminology just fine. 

Cancer is when cells behave abnormally. It happens all the time. When they do so they then need to be separated into two classes... benign and malignant...

A benign tumor is a mass of cells that lacks the ability to invade neighboring tissue or metastasize. 

A malignant one is one that does, or that has the ability to destroy nearby tissue. 

Equine melanoma ( as long as it is not internal and strangulating organs or blocking genitals )IS CLASSIFIED AS BENIGN. 

IN VERY RARE CASES IT CAN BE A PROBLEM. But you cannot classify all cancers as malignant.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The term is tumor, concerning benign and malignant and not cancer

There are two main classifications of tumors. One is known as benign and the other as malignant. A benign tumor is a tumor that does not invade its surrounding tissue or spread around the body. A malignant tumor is a tumor that may invade its surrounding tissue or spread around the body.


Cancer

cancer listen (KAN-ser)
A term for diseases in which abnormal cells divide without control and can invade nearby tissues. Cancer cells can also spread to other parts of the body through the blood and lymph systems. There are several main types of cancer. Carcinoma is a cancer that begins in the skin or in tissues that line or cover internal organs. Sarcoma is a cancer that begins in bone, cartilage, fat, muscle, blood vessels, or other connective or supportive tissue. Leukemia is a cancer that starts in blood-forming tissue, such as the bone marrow, and causes large numbers of abnormal blood cells to be produced and enter the blood. Lymphoma and multiple myeloma are cancers that begin in the cells of the immune system. Central nervous system cancers are cancers that begin in the tissues of the brain and spinal cord. Also called malignancy.

Sorry there are benign and malignant or cancerous tumors, but no benign cancers!

You biopsy a tumor to see if it is benign or cancerous, also known as malignant

Have yet to ever here a pathologist say this cancer is benign, nope, he states this TUMOR benign or non cancerous

Sorry to those where this is getting off track, but benign cancer is a bigger oxymoron then 'shanked snaffle!

There is a reason cancer clinics are called cancer clinics, and you sure don't get referred to them if you have a benign tumor!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A benign tumor has no abnormal cells. 
A cancerous tumor has abnormal uncontrolled cell divison. Far as degree of malignancy, ability to invade, that is determined by cell markers, how 'abnormal 'the cell is
If you wish to know how a cancerous tumor is graded, here is some info
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/diagnosis-staging/prognosis/tumor-grade-fact-sheet

I already stated that unlike in humans, where melanoma is highly malignant, it is often benign in grey horses. Yes, there are benign tumors, as every woman hopes, having a breast biopsy, but if she is told it is cancer=not good news!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

'Cancer is when cells behave abnormally. It happens all the time. When they do so they then need to be separated into two classes... benign and malignant...

Completely false. Cancer is NEVER benign, although it is graded, as in Gleason score for prostate cancer. Some are more invasive then others
You have the word tumor mixed up with cancer
A tumor can be benign or malignant


----------



## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> I never considered that a grey could be classified as a valued/pricier/unusual color, but I guess some folks see them that way.
> 
> IMO buying color means an appaloosa, palomino, paint, grulla, chocolate, red chocolate, buckskin or dun. Something that is a bit tricky to reproduce in an attractive pattern. Greys don't really have desired pattern, because eventually they all turn white.
> 
> Many breeders sell off a foal young that they see starting to grey before an unaware buyer realizes the foal will grey out.


For OTTBs at least, there is a distinct price increase for grays, and they sell _much_ faster. Even if they are not as well-conformed as bays or chestnuts in the same barn.

That picture is very difficult to judge from, but frankly I'm not a fan of the 3yo. Even if the horse is late-maturing, balance is not going to change much. If that's the best picture the seller could come up with, I'd give them a hard pass.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I personally get tired of certain people/person going on for pages and pages about how much they hate greys. It really gets old. I happen to have 2 greys and love them very much. My 2nd horse was also a grey. Yes, I suppose one could die of melanoma. But I'm not worried about it. I've lost several horses to colic over the years. One went crippled and had to be PTS. I haven't lost one to melanoma yet. So while anything is possible, I don't even worry about it.

There are a LOT of genetic linked issues out there, grey is far from the only one or the worst one. Frame overos carry lethal white and I think they are gorgeous and well worth breeding.

What about Appaloosas? Are they not prone to blindness and eye issues? I don't see anyone saying not to breed them. Especially someone who feels so strongly about greys getting cancer that they can go on and on about it for several pages.

If someone doesn't like greys, don't buy one. Other people like greys (or the horse that happens to fit their needs is grey) and have no problem buying one. As a matter of fact, a lot of people find them very attractive! 

Oh, I did have a horse with cancer once. He was a Paint. He had cancer on his penis and I think he was also starting to get it in the corner of his eye. He is the horse that got crippled up in his 30's and had to be PTS. It wasn't the cancer that got him.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

FINE... I did use Tumor vs cancer incorrectly it was late and I was tired... V
THE BASIC POINT IS Melanomas aren't that BIG OF A DEAL IN GREYS. honestly, I see more malignancys in pretty frame paint horses and appys.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I personally get tired of certain people/person going on for pages and pages about how much they hate greys. It really gets old. I happen to have 2 greys and love them very much. My 2nd horse was also a grey. Yes, I suppose one could die of melanoma. But I'm not worried about it. I've lost several horses to colic over the years. One went crippled and had to be PTS. I haven't lost one to melanoma yet. So while anything is possible, I don't even worry about it.
> 
> There are a LOT of genetic linked issues out there, grey is far from the only one or the worst one. Frame overos carry lethal white and I think they are gorgeous and well worth breeding.
> 
> ...


I'll always do a double take for a grey over any other color... but that's me. I like greys.

Anyway, back on the TRUE subject of this thread....
@Julirs, how much are they asking for him? Obviously everyone is split on this subject since I do like him, but what do YOU think? Don't let some recent conversation keep you from responding since I'd love to hear how this plays out!


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I personally like the fellow. Grey color would not matter to me at all. I think he's worth taking a look at and seeing him for myself if I were in the market to buy right now.
I was just hanging out with a grey, now white older andy stallion next door and would take him in a heartbeat if he were available. Really cool guy. 

A horse is worth what someone will pay but also what someone is willing to sell for. If I were looking for a horse of this guys style then I think that 1,800. is not that much for a decent horse. Personally, if I were looking for a OTTB then I would rescue one. If I were looking for a BLM mustang, then I would buy one for 125. bucks. But, that is not what I want or like. So to compare the two is irrelevant. If I wanted to buy a quarter horse or paint I could probably pick one up pretty cheap. I see them all day long, every day listed on FB pages in my area for almost nothing. But that is not what I want.

My filly is half lusitano and half friesian/saddlebred and I have the papers to prove that she is a mutt. Would I sell her for 500.? A 1,000.? Nope, I feel that she is worth much more than that based on her conformation and potential for a great riding horse. If I were to sell her, it sure wouldn't be for 500 bucks. If that is all people would want to give me then I guess I would just keep my 500 dollar horse. If were willing to take meat prices for her then I probably should not have brought her into this world in the first place.

If I wanted to sell my horses for the price of meat then maybe I would just get into the business of raising horses for meat. I personally don't have a problem with people eating horse flesh. I do have a problem with how livestock is treated on the way to the slaughterhouse and would make sure that didn't happen to any of my guys. Therefore, would not sell them for 500 bucks.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Tazzie said:


> @Julirs, how much are they asking for him? Obviously everyone is split on this subject since I do like him, but what do YOU think? Don't let some recent conversation keep you from responding since I'd love to hear how this plays out!


Me too!!!


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

*OP here...*

OP here! Sorry have been a bit busy to respond. A little more information. I have been visiting this horse every couple of months for the last year and a half. He is in an awkward growing stage, but he is being fed properly and growing slowly and correctly. He is being worked, and has been worked in the round pen with a saddle. I have worked him. This breeder works with these guys from the time they are born on desensitizing and getting them used to human contact. I want to watch him a while longer as he grows, and who knows, he may be saddle broken by the time I make a decision. She stated $8500, and I will NOT pay that much for what he is, with parents that have not yet done anything. She does still have the Stallion (now gelded) who is going nicely under saddle. I think somewhere between $1500 and $3000 is a much better price for what he is, and depending on where he is in his training before I decide. There is a track here in Tampa, and TB's are free, and very cheap even if let down and put back under saddle. There are many horses to choose from, but I rather like what this lady does with her horses and I happen to like the kindness and willingness of this particular 3 year old. The Stallion-now-gelding is 16.2 hands, and rather favors the Oldenburg side as he is OldXAndalusian. I will post a not-great photo of him, and a few face shots of the 3 year old. That floppy bottom lip seems to run in the family.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, I don't hate greys, I have one.
I just rather try to avoid future heartache,and any personal experience aside, the statistics concerning greys and melanoma is out there
It is fortunate, that in many cases, the melanoma in grey horses, remains a benign tumor, which does not cause huge problems, unless they are internal, pressing or obstructing some vital area
I just posted as to why I would not purposely buy a grey, stating known facts, and somehow that became bashing greys,, or the choice of those to whom that association does not matter
A- i raise Appaloosas, and greying gene causes loss of coat pattern
B Whether the melanoma tumors on greys are benign or not, I (ME), chose not to go there

Now if others feel different,that is their choice, so go look at the horse , buy him, and if he does not work out,sell him to that grey market !


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Julirs said:


> OP here! Sorry have been a bit busy to respond. A little more information. I have been visiting this horse every couple of months for the last year and a half. He is in an awkward growing stage, but he is being fed properly and growing slowly and correctly. He is being worked, and has been worked in the round pen with a saddle. I have worked him. This breeder works with these guys from the time they are born on desensitizing and getting them used to human contact. I want to watch him a while longer as he grows, and who knows, he may be saddle broken by the time I make a decision. She stated $8500, and I will NOT pay that much for what he is, with parents that have not yet done anything. She does still have the Stallion (now gelded) who is going nicely under saddle. I think somewhere between $1500 and $3000 is a much better price for what he is, and depending on where he is in his training before I decide. There is a track here in Tampa, and TB's are free, and very cheap even if let down and put back under saddle. There are many horses to choose from, but I rather like what this lady does with her horses and I happen to like the kindness and willingness of this particular 3 year old. The Stallion-now-gelding is 16.2 hands, and rather favors the Oldenburg side as he is OldXAndalusian. I will post a not-great photo of him, and a few face shots of the 3 year old. That floppy bottom lip seems to run in the family.


Eh, $8500 is a bit more than I could spend, particularly for an unbroke 3 year old. But I'm cheap :lol:

Honestly, those face pictures would have me hook, line and sinker if he were in my affordable range (which your range for him is about what I'd pay; a bit more if he's just about ready to be started and showing willingness). I knew he had to be kind and willing just from the trotting picture. People can go on all day about the ideal conformation of a horse, but really. Very few horses are perfect. I didn't see anything that popped out as a worry for future lameness. Maybe his conformation will inhibit some if he's heavier in the front than behind. But it's not impossible to get them to work correctly. My mare isn't the first quarter horse/paint type that had a heavier front end build that I was able to teach to sit over their haunches. It won't come as easily as a purpose bred Dressage horse, but I really like him. How far were you thinking of going with him in Dressage? That could help some out too if you have aspirations of FEI level Dressage or just looking for a fun, local level horse.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't know where I got the number of 1,800. It sounds like you know the owner of this horse fairly well. What is his/her reasoning for the price tag of 8,500? 

If and when you decide you want to buy him then I suppose if they get a little more training on him and you decide he has the potential to where you want to go with him then he might be worth somewhere where they are asking. I think that your thoughts on price is somewhat accurate but, offering 1,500 when they are asking 8,500 is a little bit of low balling. Personally, I've seen plenty of horses with a lot more training with that price tag. I've also seen three year old crosses with the asking price of much more. I have no idea what they actually got for them though.

I do like him.


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

*Price*

I am not sure where she got $8500, but she does want $25,000 for his father. She isn't looking to get rid of anyone quickly at those prices. And she isn't in a hurry. She put alot into these babies, and she wants to see them go into good homes. I could get an amazing proven horse for that price all day long here. But at my age this is really my last shot to bring along a baby. I don't aspire to do anything FEI, a decent first or second level test would be nice. My Paint could do that, if he didn't hate Dressage so much. And there is the entire line of thinking around correctly developing a horse. This is my Paint, first the pictures he was advertised with. Without seeing him, I would have said he was too long to collect, pasterns were worrisome, narrow chested, and some other things. But working him for 6 years in Dressage, and lots of topline building resulted in what he is today, the last pic.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like the look of the (ex) stallion - he's exactly what I'd expect to see in a horse that was Andalusian x Oldenburg. The TB blood could make for a lighter built horse but you should still be looking at a horse that's going to be well suited for dressage or jumping
There's no way I could compare this youngster to a typical 'mutt' because its got 3 distinct breeds in its bloodlines that you could expect to see in a sport horse type. 
Unless he's got some conformation flaws that could affect his ability to perform or behavioural problems with the right training he's going to increase in value and in a few years time would be worth a lot more than the $8K she's asking for him
If I'd bred this horse and he was 'correct' I would no way let him off my yard for less than $3K and to be honest I'd be insulted if anyone offered me less because its already cost me more than that to feed it and care for it for 3 years
If I wanted to do dressage I personally would rather buy a nice unspoilt 3 year old that's got some dressage/sport horse breeding than take on an OTTB with all the baggage that comes with it for retraining but I think if you want a free or cheap horse that might do OK in lower level dressage you would maybe do better to go and look at some of these OTTB's


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

Oh, and that Registered Paint, with some nice lines, cost me $1800 in 2011.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Your paint is lovely but the bloodlines in a Paint horse aren't usually what are regarded as Sport Horse bloodlines - a Sport horse has to be a type of horse that's got bloodlines suited to dressage, show jumping or Eventing looking at the higher levels - so mostly the Warmbloods, Irish Draughts and IDSH & TB's. 
I would think that the owner of the youngster is breeding Sport Horses that can be registered with the American Performance Horse registry and/or the American WB registry


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm _*not*_ looking for a fight, or un-kind words from others headed my direction...
This* is *a public forum where everyone* is* entitled to their views, and their opinion whether we agree or agree to disagree.
Sharing of views done with respect for and to each other.:|

So... he _*is*_ cute.
A asking price though of $8500 for a 3 year old that has done very little in "training", has no papers, nor parentage with a background of excellence...:shock:
I think, I truly think he is very over-priced.
I know certain breeds are just worth more...but there has to be more than cute and personality to fetch that kind of price.
For me, no he is _*not*_ worth "killer" pricing either but more.
But *not* $8500 either....
For not much more added to that price you could have a trained, ready to go horse _with_ papers...
I would be thoroughly vetting that horse though for anywhere near that amount of money...just to be sure all is as it should be..
I just don't see a baby minimally trained being worth that kind of money..I just don't.

So,.... those Thoroughbreds are what were competing upper level Dressage and Cross-country along with other riding disciplines successfully. 
Still are, and hold their own against the "warmbloods and sport-horses" too.
Not every OTTB comes with issues either. Some do, many do not.

There is a horse and price to match everyone's needs and wants...you just need to be open to what is available for your wants and needs.
Evaluate this or any horse for what you want to do...then take into consideration the breed and registration papers. Every animal is a individual and should be judged as one...

The best of luck to you in your search.
_I truly can't believe how much "heat and negativity" was thrown around here on such a innocently started thread....:-o
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...
_


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

I think your opinion is dead on. With unproven parents, $8500 will not happen. I also agree with $1500 being a lowball after the careful raising of babies. But I also have to consider the options for my money. Owner is willing, and I wouldn't do it any other way, to let me take the horse on trial so I can evaluate and get a vet check. I wouldn't buy ANY horse any other way. I need the right horse for me.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I like the look of the (ex) stallion - he's exactly what I'd expect to see in a horse that was Andalusian x Oldenburg. The TB blood could make for a lighter built horse but you should still be looking at a horse that's going to be well suited for dressage or jumping
> There's no way I could compare this youngster to a typical 'mutt' because its got 3 distinct breeds in its bloodlines that you could expect to see in a sport horse type.
> Unless he's got some conformation flaws that could affect his ability to perform or behavioural problems with the right training he's going to increase in value and in a few years time would be worth a lot more than the $8K she's asking for him
> If I'd bred this horse and he was 'correct' I would no way let him off my yard for less than $3K and to be honest I'd be insulted if anyone offered me less because its already cost me more than that to feed it and care for it for 3 years
> If I wanted to do dressage I personally would rather buy a nice unspoilt 3 year old that's got some dressage/sport horse breeding than take on an OTTB with all the baggage that comes with it for retraining but I think if you want a free or cheap horse that might do OK in lower level dressage you would maybe do better to go and look at some of these OTTB's


$3k was what I was thinking would be worth it for him, which was her top end of that budget she put out.

I do understand wanting to get a deal even knowing the horse could fetch more in a few years time with good training, so I get why OP wouldn't want to pay $8500. I'd say if she's interested, she should chat with the owners of him and see if they can work out some kind of deal.



horselovinguy said:


> So,.... those Thoroughbreds are what were competing upper level Dressage and Cross-country along with other riding disciplines successfully.
> Still are, and hold their own against the "warmbloods and sport-horses" too.
> Not every OTTB comes with issues either. Some do, many do not.


I have nothing against Thoroughbreds, though they aren't what I seek in a horse. However, an actual OTTB fresh from the track WILL need retraining. And someone who can ride and train babies may not be up to the challenge of handling a horse that has only really been taught to run and run FAST. I, for one, know that retraining an OTTB is outside of my skill set especially with our set up. But we were able to successfully start my mare who had zero training on her. An unspoiled canvas tends to give a wider range of possibilities than a horse that has already been trained a certain way.

Not giving you flack for it, but pointing out that an OTTB may be unsuitable for the OP's set up and perhaps why she hasn't picked that avenue. I'd never say all have issues, but their retraining will demand a different skill set than starting a fresh baby.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Julirs said:


> I think your opinion is dead on. With unproven parents, $8500 will not happen. I also agree with $1500 being a lowball after the careful raising of babies. But I also have to consider the options for my money. Owner is willing, and I wouldn't do it any other way, to let me take the horse on trial so I can evaluate and get a vet check. I wouldn't buy ANY horse any other way. I need the right horse for me.


I'm very glad you've thought it all out and agree $1500 is too low for him. I'd say to sit down for a chat with the owner


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Iberian warmbloods are a big thing right now, would be my guess as to why she thinks she can get her price tags. You often get the ability to collect and presence of the Andy and often more jump and lengthening ability from the warmblood/tb side. At least that is the goal. 

I have seen and ridden some really nice ones, and some less nice ones. I braided one that that is rumored to have sold for more than my house is appraised for..... which is saying something!!!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Three grand sounds reasonable, $8.500 does not.
There seems to be some sort of mindset in the sport horse world that as soon as you attach the term 'warmblood', that horse is worth mega bucks
I can pick up a copy of Gaitpost, mainly dedicated to the sales of sport horses, with a TB X draft cross advertised in that range, and with all qualifications limited to 'three good gaits, un complicated ride'
Why would any breeder bother starting horses under saddle, if you can just buy some sport horse and breed him to some un proven TB mares, with that stud himself having done nothing?
It would not be too difficult to have bought several TB mares, and have churned out horses automatically worth 8 grand. That breeder was sitting on a gold mine, and should not have gelded that unproven stud !
Was that stud even Warm blood inspected? What about the mare?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Iberian warmbloods are a big thing right now, would be my guess as to why she thinks she can get her price tags. You often get the ability to collect and presence of the Andy and often more jump and lengthening ability from the warmblood/tb side. At least that is the goal.
> 
> I have seen and ridden some really nice ones, and some less nice ones. I braided one that that is rumored to have sold for more than my house is appraised for..... which is saying something!!!


Yup, it says those people have money. Look into who owns those hundreds of thousands of dollar warmbloods. Money is no object. Horses are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Yup. That is what a market is. Supply and demand. You price it for what you think someone will pay. For many of these horses, with the right conformation, training and being in the right place at the right time... that means $$. Iberian warmbloods only require 25% Andy or lusitano bloodlines and no approval. Not the fanciest registry but it is passable. 

A person is either willing to pay it or not. 

I am not personally willing to pay big $ for a top reining horse or cutting horse... but someone is.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

horselovinguy said:


> I truly can't believe how much "heat and negativity" was thrown around here on such a innocently started thread....


I think this has been a fascinating, civil, and educational thread. Posters from all over the country and from different countries have given their opinion on the value of a horse, the value of a grey horse in general, and equine melanoma has been discussed. Not everyone agrees with each other, but that is how life goes most days anyway.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think its been a civil and informed thread - you can disagree and still learn something
I've had a lot of OTTB's (ex racehorses) and some have retrained well and some haven't. You're less likely to get the paces you need for higher level dressage but if they've got the right 'mind' they can do low level dressage as well as anything else
Considering Valegro failed the inspection I don't think I would put too much emphasis on the sire passing/failing it, I'd be more interested in how he performs under saddle even if he hasn't competed he can still show what he can do
The breeder should be able to tell you what his lineage is on all sides
OP - Its good of the owner to let you have the horse on trial - something I will never do after a couple of bad experiences years ago. Do be sure to find out who's responsible for insuring the horse when he's on your property and under your supervision and get it in writing. If anything happens you could find yourself paying for a expensive vet fees or worse for a horse that dies in your care.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

For ME personally...

Because he is not started under saddle and not a full-blood my price range is low-ish coming out of the chute. Looking at that one photograph I would be willing to go anywhere from $500-1200 I think. That's knowing that he is not undersaddle and considering I would have to pay at least 1800 for a solid start. (assuming he go's somewhere for 90 days) and that could be low-balling the training fee. The assumption on that would be that it would cost 600-1000 per month depending on the trainer.

Now as for registering - if you are not showing in a breed specific discipline then the papers don't matter, however you can always register for certain clubs and show type stuff i.e. a state horse show association. You can also register sometimes for a state-bred program depending on how that works.

For resale purposes you could be looking at $5-7k once the horse is trained.

Does that help?


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Oh. Please don't get me wrong. I love a good OTTB. BUT- it takes a bit of skill to be able to have the eye to be able to walk Dow the shedrows and look at a racing TB and know how they are going to let down. Be able to have the eye to see which will have the mind and conformation to be dressage horses vs hunter vs eventers. And what injuries can be workable vs not. With time and rehab and which horses will need to be retired early. 

And then get the vet work to treat the ulcers, get their feet into sporthorse feet. Build the muscles and get them working back to front properly. This takes TIME, KNOWLEDGE money and patience. It takes a fairly inexpensive horse off the track and makes them $$, which most people aren't willing to spend for an OTTB. 

People take for granted all the work it takes to turn a racehorse into a good pony citizen trotting around the show arena and going over fences. Especially since they didn't get the good start that most warmbloods get at 3-3.5. But many of them get "culled" before that point for various reasons. Be it health or mental. 

They have the benefit of lots of life experience... but then they are told... no, we don't want you to run like a bat out of hell anymore as your only job.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We don't know anything about the seller of the horse but its not worth breeding a horse like that to then sell it as a 3 year old for less than $3K


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

It isn't worth breeding a horse if it isn't worth 3k as soon as it hits the ground.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Yup. That is what a market is. Supply and demand. You price it for what you think someone will pay. For many of these horses, with the right conformation, training and being in the right place at the right time... that means $$. Iberian warmbloods only require 25% Andy or lusitano bloodlines and no approval. Not the fanciest registry but it is passable.
> 
> A person is either willing to pay it or not.
> 
> I am not personally willing to pay big $ for a top reining horse or cutting horse... but someone is.


Yes, but those big dollar reining and cutting PROSPECTS, are both registered, and have proven blood top and bottom. Tougher market, but then look at the price of Gypsy Varniers in North America. 
About 10 years ago, a mini stud with Appaloosa markings, near here, was bought for $20,000. Now, can hardly give them away
The 'breeder's market, is one to get in fast, and then get out, before prices fall. 
Does not matter what that gelded sire is priced at. It counts as to what someone will actually pay for him


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> We don't know anything about the seller of the horse but its not worth breeding a horse like that to then sell it as a 3 year old for less than $3K


That is true for any breeder. Unfortunately, once supply and demand cuts in, by supply exceeding demand, that breeder has to be able to hang on to his horses, feed them, train them, ect, if they don't sell
We have no government control, far as breeding ,on this side of the Ocean, which often results in a buyer's market
Many breeders thus get out, and cut their losses. I've seen some pretty nice horses go through select sales, below their value. Some are bought back, but many go to lucky buyers, taking advantage of a buyer;s market
I guess time will tell, whether that breeder gets his asking price
I would think, that an offer of $3,000 would be considered an insult, for ahorse priced at $8,500
I always set a fair price, and never an inflated one, with a huge range of bargining


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

You pay 10k for a stud fee and the foal STILL may or may not be able to able to lope a brilliant circle in the futurity and make big money. There is no guarantee when you play big money with horses. 

It is still a ridiculous prospect and many prospects turn into ranch or ammy horses. Not big $$ horses. 

I had a lovely Lena mare, failed out of the futurity circuits so she needed to come to me to defrag and learn how to have fun again. So I hunterpaced and foxhunted her. Looked ridiculous but she started to be happy again and is now doing judged trail rides and obstacles with her new owner. But she is a nasty thing if you try to point her towards a cow or arena....


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, no garentee when it comes to horses, but it is an accepted fact that breeding proven blood, narrows the odds
There are many well bred race horses that never win a dime. Still, that doe snot mean those breeding race hroses, reiners, cutters, then just say 'the heck with paying for proven blood
Also does not mean, someone can't find that 'dark horse', and make a champion.
The story of Snowman and Harry is testimony to that
If the OP buys this horse, I will be the first to wish her luck with her diamond in the rough!


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

EliRose said:


> For OTTBs at least, there is a distinct price increase for grays, and they sell _much_ faster. Even if they are not as well-conformed as bays or chestnuts in the same barn.
> 
> That picture is very difficult to judge from, but frankly I'm not a fan of the 3yo. Even if the horse is late-maturing, balance is not going to change much. If that's the best picture the seller could come up with, I'd give them a hard pass.


Very interesting about OTTB and greys/grays.


----------



## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I raised, bread, and field trialed registered beagles for 25 years.

I'm of the opinion, who you buy from is what determines the price.

What I mean by that is there are breeders who have a waiting list on the few (pups, colts etc.) and the breeder is driving the price rather than the dog/colt.

The same, identical breeding, when offered by someone not proven usually brings a far lower price even though the quality is often the same....

It's really about who you are, rather than what your selling.

Finish a few Champions and the price goes up.....

Unregistered, un-shown, not proven, by an unknown individual makes the horse worth meat prices......sad but true.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

$8,500 - holy cow that is a lot of money. I was not expecting that. And $25,000 for the sire... I could help finding a horse, or you could get from us a youngster/foal with proven dressage lines on the dam's side (KWPN) for far less than that. I'm cheap and can find quite a few pure bred horses for $2,000-3,000, or less. Often coming with some sort of baggage, but higher price tag is not always a guarantee for a "perfect horse" either.

Look, I'm in a country where there is so much to choose from and Andalusians are everywhere. Right now we have a buckskin half Andalusian filly for sale for 1,500€, with dressage trained, but non proven Andalusian sire. She has full half-bred, proven origins (I don't how else to call it in English) papers and access to all competitions. Here a horse has to be registered at birth for full papers, and a horse with no papers doesn't have an access to competitions. Half papers, with one registered parent and other unknown, you can compete club and introductory/entry level. So here a horse who can jump, but doesn't have the papers, is worth nothing, but in England could be worth (much) more.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's where things differ from one country to another Gunslinger because people in the UK will pay a lot of money for a horse for showing in hunter or cob classes regardless of it having no pedigree or 'well known' breeder, they're only interested in how it looks and how it moves and behaves
If I'm buying a horse for dressage I'm less interested in its pedigree and more interested in that individual horse and how it looks and moves
Though don't forget it was the US market that sent the price of gypsy cobs and vanners through the roof -unless you believe the 'gypsies' (and I use that term very loosely) that sold them (and people in the UK had a real laugh at that one) they had zero proven pedigrees and the person the US gypsy lovers called 'King of the Gypsy horses' spends most of his time in prison on animal neglect charges
One difference in buying a nice quality horse that's got unproven 'sport horse' bloodlines and one that's got top proven bloodlines is more $'s than most people would want to spend!!


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Fimargue that is a very cute filly, nice and uphill and in color too! Could get a lot for her on this side of the pond (USA)

Wonder what it costs to transport a horse?? 

Here, at least in Dressage, a horse does not need any papers to compete at any level. Only in breed shows does a horse need to be registered. 

In Europe and many other parts of the world, horses have been bred for centuries for different traits. Here we are a newer country, and have not been breeding for as long. Plus less choice. So folks try to cross-breed to get a warmblood that is affordable and can compete. 

I had a grey Arab/TB/Percheron cross that I purchased for under 2000 that was a very good mover. His uncle, a TB/Percheron competed successfully up to I-1.

I would never say meat price for a horse just because they are grade. I rode a grade QH through first level and he was very popular. Had quite a little fan following at shows. Unfortunately he developed asthma and couldn't go on. My instructor (a one time Olympic alternate and gold medalist) called him a mini-warmblood. 

The sire of this little gelding is nice, put he is overpriced. I would price the sire at 10,000. For 25K one can get a pure Andalusion under saddle at training/first level. 

The rider/breeder sounds to be a very talented equestrian, but she is aiming for a very tough market. Horses seem to be either under 10K or over 60K. That middle range is hard. 

My good friend paid 20K for a 17 hand, 5yr old Oldenburg under saddle for one year. She had to search for 8 months before she found one in that price range that had potential for the upper levels. 

I was second in line for a 16.2h, 12 yr old Oldenburg for 6K. Unfortunately, the one that was first bought him in a heartbeat. 

I completely agree with the 1500-3000 (max) for that little gelding. Very wise of the OP to continue to watch his growth and development. I sincerely doubt the breeder will be able to sell him for 8500 anytime soon, if ever.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> @*Fimargue* that is a very cute filly, nice and uphill and in color too! Could get a lot for her on this side of the pond (USA)
> 
> Wonder what it costs to transport a horse??
> .


I've noticed that nice jumping horses and ponies that are competing at around the 3ft/3ft 6 height are a lot cheaper to buy in the UK than they are in the US - it helps that its so much easier to compete at different venues every week and through the winter months without having to travel far from home so they get the ring experience a lot faster
You're looking at around $8K to $10K to ship them here plus Vet fees and quarantine which will add a lot on to the price of a mare. 
When we brought our 3 here it worked out at $6K per horse (at todays exchange rate - back then it wasn't so good) plus quarantine and vet fees but we got a reduction from the shipping company because we were bringing 3 together so I'm thinking the costs will have risen over 10 years


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

jaydee said:


> One difference in buying a nice quality horse that's got unproven 'sport horse' bloodlines and one that's got top proven bloodlines is more $'s than most people would want to spend!!


Indeed. The foals/youngsters we have, have some top proven dressage/jumping bloodlines and go for far less than $8,500, so do the half Andalusians, because parents themselves are not proven in the sport. But yes, we are not in the US. The prices can be so different.
@AnitaAnne - she is very well build and a good girl.


(Sorry about the quality)

Her sire is an absolute top mover and passes his ability to his offspring. He also has a top character, absolutely adores babies - he would adopt them all. Right now he is in a paddock with his own Warlander colt and a Quarter Horse colt. Also had a colt by him and out of a KWPN mare (jumping line) last year, and he is quite the chap.

No idea about the cost, but should find out at some point, as plan would be to import some QHs and Paints.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I've noticed that nice jumping horses and ponies that are competing at around the 3ft/3ft 6 height are a lot cheaper to buy in the UK than they are in the US - it helps that its so much easier to compete at different venues every week and through the winter months without having to travel far from home so they get the ring experience a lot faster
> You're looking at around $8K to $10K to ship them here plus Vet fees and quarantine which will add a lot on to the price of a mare.
> When we brought our 3 here it worked out at $6K per horse (at todays exchange rate - back then it wasn't so good) plus quarantine and vet fees but we got a reduction from the shipping company because we were bringing 3 together so I'm thinking the costs will have risen over 10 years


Interesting! So would need to find a group willing to go on the cost, plus a reputable contact overseas. 

The few I know that have brought back horses carried their trainers with them. They purchased VERY EXPENSIVE horses, paid for all the humans' expenses, and then the cost to transport. 100K minimum. Some of the horses had issues too :-?. It is a prestige thing, for some, to bring back a horse from Europe. 

I don't have that kind of money, lol. I want a nice horse with three clean gaits on a budget. I don't care what the breeding is at all. Performance only is what matters in my book. Well, I do like them young and malleable :grin:


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Fimargue said:


> Indeed. The foals/youngsters we have, have some top proven dressage/jumping bloodlines and go for far less than $8,500, so do the half Andalusians, because parents themselves are not proven in the sport. But yes, we are not in the US. The prices can be so different.
> 
> @AnitaAnne - she is very well build and a good girl.
> 
> ...


A good brain is one of the most important things to breed for IMO. I am falling for this filly, and I really prefer geldings. 

Would love to see a picture of the sire :grin:


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

jaydee said:


> You're looking at around $8K to $10K to ship them here plus Vet fees and quarantine which will add a lot on to the price of a mare.
> When we brought our 3 here it worked out at $6K per horse (at todays exchange rate - back then it wasn't so good) plus quarantine and vet fees but we got a reduction from the shipping company because we were bringing 3 together so I'm thinking the costs will have risen over 10 years


Gosh... That is expensive. 
@AnitaAnne

Right now I don't seem to have moving/riding pictures of him on my PC. Need to take new ones, and promise to deliver :wink:



So here he is, looking not impressive at all :lol: Forgive him his little hay belly, long winter break. 




Here he is on the right, hugging the Selle Français stallion, who has as much, if not more, hair than him.

A good brain is everything. We aim to breed horses with qualities and good ability for sports, but with leisure horse temperament.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

While I never imported horses, I did export a few to Europe Germany and the Czech Republic
I did save the buyer some money, by doing the quarantines 
I did not pay for nay of the export fees, but was aware of them.Costs depend on where the hrose is shipped from, and whether that plane is full,going in both directions
One year, when we had three fillies going to the Czech Republic(Yup Appaloosas ) as stock horses,well bred, being less common in Europe, demanded prices there, that made the import viable (good old supply and demand!0
Anyway, due to the entire Mad Cow problem that year, the iNternational show jumpers were not flying into Calgary, to Spruce Meadows, so that the choice for the buyer, was to either wait until spring, or have them shipped overland to Ontario and flown out of Toronto. That added $3,000 per hrose right there.
Far as grooms, sometimes if things work out good, one can get the owner to accompany the hrose as groom for free, and in exchange, give them marketing opportunities in the country the horse is being shipped to.
At that time, which was ten years ago at least, the airfare per hrose was around $5,000, providing they could go in a crate for three , or was it four hroses???
Stallions cost more, as they had to have their own crate. There are also various levies, depending on where the hrose landed.
In the case of the horses going to the Czech republic, they had to be transported in a quarantined vehicle,over land, once they got to where they landed (Belgium I think), which also added cost


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> Interesting! So would need to find a group willing to go on the cost, plus a reputable contact overseas.
> 
> The few I know that have brought back horses carried their trainers with them. They purchased VERY EXPENSIVE horses, paid for all the humans' expenses, and then the cost to transport. 100K minimum. Some of the horses had issues too :-?. It is a prestige thing, for some, to bring back a horse from Europe.
> 
> I don't have that kind of money, lol. I want a nice horse with three clean gaits on a budget. I don't care what the breeding is at all. Performance only is what matters in my book. Well, I do like them young and malleable :grin:


 We used a company called IRT as they were recommended to us by the British Horse Society and from our own experiences they were wonderful. They organized everything, we did use our own vet for all of the health stuff but they took us step by step through the process, provided a first rate groom to travel with the horses and kept us updated throughout the journey. 
We were bringing our own horses and the company my DH works for were footing the bill so not quite the same. If I was buying a horse from the UK I have a couple of friends there that I would trust to go and look at horses and try them on my behalf and I have vet. contacts that I would trust to deal with a PPE but if you've got to either pay an agent or travel there yourself it puts the costs up even more.
Interestingly though if you want to buy a young WB like this one I'm linking too that's got a proven successful competition pedigree but itself is unbroken and only sold as 'having potential' you'll be expecting to pay in the region of $30K. 
She's not a lot different to the one the OP has shown us - better grown so looks more mature but no guarantee that she'll perform as well as her parentage.
Holstein Mare by Casall | Horsemart


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Fimargue said:


> A good brain is everything. We aim to breed horses with qualities and good ability for sports, but with leisure horse temperament.


This is exactly the type of horse I want; *horses with qualities and good ability for sports, but with leisure horse temperament
*

Amazing to see two stallions next to each other like that in open top stalls. Amazing and a testament for breeding a good brained horse. 

Shipping a horse here sounds complicated. Not sure I have the funds for that, but one can dream...


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

OP-

It's entirely up to you. How much you want to spend and how much you're willing to spend just to get to walk, trot, canter and ride. How long you're willing to wait for him to mentally mature and get together and evaluate how much money you'll be spending to develop him. Honestly I don't think this horse is even worth 5-6k. I'm sure the owner could find someone willing to pay it but it doesn't mean he's worth it. I also don't think his sire is worth 25k.

It takes a lot to get a young horse going. A lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of work. I break/develop young dressage horses. When I look at a horse and evaluate a prospect, I look at their mechanics. I don't focus on their conformation or how flashy or pretty they are but their physical mechanics of HOW they move, how they physically use their body because that is more accurate when evaluating potential. Then I look at conformation and look at faults that might be critical, faults that can be worked with and good points and ask is this something I want to invest in? I don't know what your budget is or what you can afford but I find buying a made horse long term is much cheaper than buying a prospect. Especially if you aren't planning to go FEI.

For a 2nd level prospect I think he could do it but I think you'd be struggling to get him there. Even if he has the right brain for it which isn't a guarantee even if he seems very sweet, willing and compliant, he may be a totally different horse in a few months or year. I think getting him to take weight behind and carry enough to be competent at 2nd level would be difficult. He has a long, down turning stride without much activity in his hocks or movement through his shoulder. He's also structurally weak behind which you can see in how he carries himself. He travels more like a thoroughbred, drawing his legs forward without the drive from behind. He's more of a "huntery" mover and in general horses I've seen who naturally move flat and use their stifles and hocks like this 3yr old end up finding dressage-even at 2nd level very difficult. I also see them develop stifle and sacral issues if they're not built to shift weight. And it isn't so much based on whether they are downhill or uphill but HOW they use their body, their stifles and engage their hocks. Like Izzie (Tazzie's mare) has good mechanics. She uses her hind end and shoulder very well. Even when she was young, she drove her body forward from behind with her hocks underneath and lifts well through her shoulder with a natural tendency to elevate and good basic 3 gaits. 

Another question to ask yourself with honesty and objectivity is how athletic are you? How experienced are you? How much time do you have? How much are you willing to spend to develop a horse with training, clinics, etc? And also what your capability is. You don't have to answer the board on this but it's a personal question you have to ask yourself and really evaluate what you want. It isn't my place to tell you what to do or what is right for you but I will give you as honest and as objective an opinion as I can provide based off of my experience. Because I can say I bought a quarab gelding for 4500 and developed him for a year and half. It took a year just to fix his canter and get him to take contact but he was still very hard to ride through. I did a lot to get him going and long story short for all the money I spent to try to develop my quarab, I could have bought two of my mare. My quarab had FEI potential but he didn't love it and the thing is, if they're not built to do it and it's hard they have to love it because it's harder for them and also harder to keep them sound. 

I honestly wouldn't pay 5k for this tb cross. I honestly wouldn't buy him unless my plan was to flip him. But he is NOT worth 8500, she might find someone willing to pay it but it doesn't mean it's wise or he'll be worth what was put into him. He is not well bred or a particularly good mover. He doesn't have good mechanics, his mechanics are actually poor. He trots with hocks out behind and not underneath. His stifles are back. I am aware he is 3 and isn't done developing but even at 2 or 3 you can see their basic mechanics of HOW they move which indicates to what extent you can improve their movement and develop them. You don't always know 100% but it does give you an idea.

Also with Valegro. He always had good mechanics and an excellent hind end. He just isnt naturally flashy, he's a power mover, not a suspension or floaty mover that gives an immediate impression. You also have to look at the caliber of riding and training he received with Carl and Charlotte. He also looks like a tough ride, like a lot to organize and to sit, he looks like he takes a ton of core and leg. Naturally he doesn't have the "WOW" factor but ridden and developed spectacular but to start with he had GREAT mechanics. In different hands Valegro probably never would have become an olympic horse.

1st video is 5yr old Valegro to give an example of great mechanics






On the lungeline my mare isn't particularly impressive but she has good mechanics, see how much she brings her hocks underneath her and how much movement she has through her shoulder? She is also 3 and a little downhill at the moment. She takes a lot to ride and organize. She's a 16.2 1/2h she's 1/4-1/3 thoroughbred, the rest is hanoverian/oldenburg.






But watch when she's ridden and you can see where mechanics plays a part. How she moves on the ground, it doesn't surprise me she can move like this undersaddle. When I looked at her as a 2-3yr old going around I thought she'd move like her sire because of HOW she moves. Honestly she looked plain as day trotting loose but she had good mechanics. Note she was broke 3 months at the time. 





or even Dante (my quarab) he really drives his hocks underneathe him. This horse took a lot to develop and honestly is one of the hardest horses I have ever ridden and the hardest horse I've ever developed due to conformation and temperament but to try he was a good boy.






Starting. When I tried him. He was basically broke. When I got on him he felt very impressive. He felt very unbalanced and everywhere at once. Canter was awful, literally felt like a dish washer on spin cycle. It felt like my body was being tossed in every direction.






After a year, his first and only show with me. He was pretty spicy at the show, first test he had to be in a steep shoulder in outside of the ring or we were flying sides ways and up but keep his brain busy and focused and he was there. He ended up not enjoying dressage, he found it boring, I did everything medically possible and decided to switch careers. As a jumper, he became an entirely different horse. Happy, willing and pleasant to ride. Dressage he was hot, spicy, and difficult but when I tried him he was so sweet, so good and felt so pleasant. But when we started breaking into 2nd and introducing half pass and collection he became increasingly more difficult and unhappy. Switched him to jumpers, occasional dressage and he was happy again.






The 3yr old half tb 1/4 PRE, 1/4 wb doesnt have good mechanics. He's a downturning mover. You don't need something with fancy breeding or paperwork but good mechanics is a must.


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

*OP again *

DanteDressageNerd, what a great post with examples! I agree with all you have said. Honest, objective, and EXPERIENCED opinions always welcome. As stated, I won't make a move until I am certain a horse has 3 good gaits. I will possibly get a video of the 3 year old this weekend, and of the sire as I think it would help give a little more info and gain me some honest advice. I love that you focus on mechanics as they are essential, and I purchased my first and forever horse with my Dressage trainer in tow. She looked at him, she rode him, and she said he had the mechanics to do it. What I would like is someone with at least the talent of my current horse, but with the willingness to actually get through a lesson without being naughty. Like your Dante, he finds it boring and looks for ways to entertain himself (like the 360 spin!) I let my kids jump him, or I set up a few ground poles and throw some 20 meter circles so he doesn't realize we are actually doing anything close to Dressage to keep him happy.  Here we are in the ring, most likely while he was thinking of what stunt to pull next!


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I really like your paint. He moves and uses himself really well. He's a nice horse. 

Sometimes they have the talent but it just isnt what they want to do and you can't make them want to do it. You can pour resources and keep throwing money at it trying to figure it out but sometimes a career change is exactly what they need. Dante could have kids riding him as a jumper. Just point and shoot, he'd really look after his rider. He actually ended up being a 3ft+ hunter prospect.

Good luck. Video would be helpful for a more accurate perception.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, as Jaydee mentioned, that horse from proven parents, selling for ahigh price does not gareentee success, but the fact remains, that proven parentage is what separates a horse that \looks' as good, and one with the proven blood, far as market value

Take the top yearling, in the NRCHA sale (yes, not just sport hroses prospects command these prices, for proven blood, even though no garentees are given
'
$100,000 CD Lights Yearling Tops NRCHA Snaffle Bit Futurity Sales
shining-cd-lightThe National Reined Cow Horse Association (NRCHA) Snaffle Bit Futurity Sales spanned three days in Reno, Nevada, Oct. 1-3, and included four sessions of cow horse prospects, proven performers and broodmares. The final session, the Select Yearling and Broodmare Sale, resulted in the highest seller, as Shining CD Light brought a final bid of $100,000.'

Now, someone might have a working cowhorse prospect, that looks equally good, with un proven parents, and I can be pretty sure no one would pay the same dollars as for that shining CD Light yearling


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are many horses in various breeds, that perform very well in disciplines that they are not specifically bred for 
The Appaloosa Pay and Go, gave the final tribute to Linda MC Carthy , and was Grand Prix


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

While I agree with a lot of what Dante has said unless I've missed some photos I haven't seen one yet that I could make a critique of any sort from. The first photo is taken either at a very odd camera angle or the horse is trotting down a slope and not worth even trying to comment on any faults it might have
For conformation critique shots you need the horse to be standing reasonably 'square' on level ground and then photos of each side and also from front and rear. For critiques of action you need videos of the horse at all paces, preferably under control and if you can also video the horse walking and trotting towards and away from the camera it also helps
Re. the sire. Without seeing it in action or knowing what its parentage is its also impossible to say what it is or isn't worth.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Agreed, crappy pictures and no pedigree don't give a proper picture of the horses. Particularly a gawky 3 year old. I have personally taken some god awful pictures of Olympic horses.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Everyone takes some bad horse pictures, but if that picture is one that the breeder used, to sell that horse, then she should take a picture that is professional, to use on a horse she puts a decent price tag on
I don't get people using sale pictures, with the hrose not standing correctly, not groomed, ect
One thing to take a causal picture of a horse that might not turn out, and quite another, to use a less then professional looking picture in a horse sales ad
First impressions, far as presentation, are just as important in marketing horses, as in any other product
If nothing else it shows pride and professionalism


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Ah... but she posted that she has been visiting the horse for the last year and a half. My understanding was that those were the OP pictures. Maybe my wrong assumption and OP SAID they weren't good pictures. They seemed like cellphone quality pictures with poor angles.


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

*Photos*

I will get some good photos and video tomorrow. The original photo was one I took, while I was working him in the round pen. I will get confirmation shots and movement video. But it also astounds me what people use for sales photos. My favorite ones are of people standing on top of the horse. Why? That does not make me want to buy a horse. I suppose they do it to show the horse is safe, but it rather makes me thing the person is not that smart.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It would also be helpful (and interesting) to know the stallion's sire and dam - you don't have to give his name


----------



## Julirs (May 18, 2011)

I will also get the information. The stallion is not registered either, I don't believe, but the owner does have all of the information. I don't remember any big names though.


----------



## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't understand why a person wouldn't register? It adds so much value, particularly when the registry has DNA to stand behind it. I also like microchipping my horses. Particularly the greys.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, lack of papers, is a good reason to geld a stud, if not for anything else in my books
Why on earth would you try to have a credible breeding program, with an unregistered stud, even if having all of the horses registered is not common practice in those disciplines?
Perhaps one reason her horses aren't selling? How do you even know if that former stud had the breeding he was touted to have?


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> This is exactly the type of horse I want; *horses with qualities and good ability for sports, but with leisure horse temperament
> *
> 
> Amazing to see two stallions next to each other like that in open top stalls. Amazing and a testament for breeding a good brained horse.
> ...


I know, it does seem costly, unfortunately.

We also have had the QH and Paint stallion in a field together several times :lol: No problem at all. 

They're good boys. Of course they have their moments and dealing with stallions you need to be one step ahead always, but in general they're mostly pleasant. Out of the five, the Friesian is the only one who can't be next to the others, he seems to be wining everyone up. He is also the one I like least dealing with - he tends to forget himself when the hormones kick in. Got to have a long rope when all that neck shoots up lol.

But, he gives Warlander offspring such as this filly:




His black colt from last year is not as impressive looking at the present, but he is so much in your pocket type that he would probably live in the house, given the chance. Can't get rid of the little stinker when I go see the others. 

Here he wants to be included - again:


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Julirs said:


> I will also get the information. The stallion is not registered either, I don't believe, but the owner does have all of the information. I don't remember any big names though.


If I'm paying for the breed, I expect to have documents to prove it. Asking $8,500, the seller is definitely expecting people to pay for the Andalusian/Oldenburg part.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Stallions are often fine turned out together, as long as there are no mares.
PMU farmers that I knew, routinely turned the stallions out together int he winter, when the mares were in the barn
Feral stallions, that don't have a harem yet, form Bachelor stud groups
But yes, good minded stallions , that are exceptional , do exist.
One of the best one I ever had, was actually running bred. I bred that ex running App mare tot he AQHA running champion, Dee Bar Bright.
The resulting colt was very easy to start. I sold him as a stallion prospect,to people starting out in horse breeding.
On a visit, I saw their kids riding him, as he was the best broke horse they had.
Yes, at times you wish you had not sold a horse to a certain home!
Nice looking boys, Fimargue


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Fimargue I'm not familiar with the Warlander, but your babies are adorable! The little black colt; pick me says he! 

Appears you have a large breeding operation.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Stallions are often fine turned out together, as long as there are no mares.
> PMU farmers that I knew, routinely turned the stallions out together int he winter, when the mares were in the barn
> Feral stallions, that don't have a harem yet, form Bachelor stud groups
> But yes, good minded stallions , that are exceptional , do exist.
> ...


Thank you!

Wouldn't try with the other three, but I have also seen Arab stallions being turned out together.

Stunning horse that Dee Bar Bright. Must have been frustrating for you!
@AnitaAnne

Thank you! I agree that they are.

It is mostly Warlanders, Warmbloods and Quarter Horses, plus couple others, but it is suffisant amount to keep us occupied


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is the colt I got from Dee Bar Bright, as a two or three year old-can't remember. Should have kept him, or at least bred a few mares first\!


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is the colt I got from Dee Bar Bright, as a two or three year old-can't remember. Should have kept him, or at least bred a few mares first\!


Stunning lad. Love the colour.


----------



## Kaity Painted Equine (Sep 19, 2016)

For an unstarted horse TB cross wouldn't be more than $500. Wouldn't even pay that much to me honest. I don't mean to come across nasty - but the money spent on maintenance & food can come costly. Depends what you're after in a horse I suppose? 


If that TB was crossed with a QH or SH for example, to hold weight well and cool down the temperament... its really nothing to drool over.
Nice confirmation but he still have another year of growing to go if he's going to be a tall horse. 


Good luck though! There are plenty of hidden gems out there. ♥


----------



## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

Any updates here OP?
Photos/Videos or have you made a decision already?


----------

