# Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed?



## thepie24

I don't mean to offend, but how can the discipline of Saddleseat be accepted as a legitimate equestrian sport? The horses, mostly Saddlebreds, are locked their stalls most of the time, ridden for 15-20 minutes a day and shod in ridiculous shoes. They have no to time to just be horses, and in the less reputable barns have ginger put in their rectums, chains around their ankles, their tails "nicked"(the nerves cut so that they can hold the tail unnaturally high) and put in tail sets which look suspiciously like torture devices, and sharp bits put in their mouths, all to enhance their "natural" gaits. Natural saddlebreds are sweet, intelligent, beautiful horses who have been enslaved by their riders. In my personal experience, I came across a saddlebred so destroyed by Saddleseat that he was unrideable, sore and his spirit broken. Rumors came in with his owners that firecrackers had been thrown at him to excite him to perform his gaits more extravagantly. People compare it to show jumping and dressage, saying they also use harsh bits and force horses to do things, which may be true, but the real issue is how an entire breed is being exploited, treated as though they are just gaits, not living breathing animals who need to be respected and allowed to act as their instincts dictate, not left in a stall for hours on end wearing a tail set to force them to carry their tail high and shoes that make them snap their feet up. How can the equestrian community ignore this obviously inhumane discipline?


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## Saddlebred girl

*saddleseat is not cruel*

Hi i just want to say i have been working with saddlebreds nearly all my life and never have i seen cruel training methods being used on them.they are taken outside to paddocks for half of the day and only spend half the day in the stables.the young horses are alwayr outside for the whole day.the shoes they have are padded and absorb the movement.the shoes are not so heavy.tail nicking isnt illegal and it doesnt hurt the horses.it is done whe foals are only a few days old.there are strickt rules at saddlebred shows and when a horse show signs of being abused it is disqualified.horses are also tested for forbidden drugs and disqualified.


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## tim

You can find that crap in all disciplines if you dig deep enough.


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## LadyDreamer

Please, PLEASE come to my barn. I will gladly take you trough mine as well as every top barn in kentucky, to help you better understand the breed and dicipline. I will address your concerns when i get home from work.

What a handful of people do to hier horses is no reason to condemn the entire breed or dicipline.


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## thepie24

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I own a Saddlebred who spent 8 years in a saddleseat barn and what i've seen does no justice for the sport, and i think people need to understand what is going on. Saddlebreds are athletic and intelligent, one of the best breeds in my opinion, but the stereotype associated with them is due to the attitudes and actions of saddleseat enthusiasts. I have no problem with gaited horses, but the methods seem absolutely cruel. Tail nicking seems the most extreme, i mean surgery when they're born? give them a chance at a normal life at least. And the tail sets are down right miserable for those horses. I know that not every barn is so severe, and that similar things can be found in all the equestrian disciplines, but nothing compares to the situations in saddleseat. you can't use ginger to make a horse piaffe or jump an oxer, and to top it all off it seems to be almost accepted as typical in saddleseat.


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## my2geldings

I'm sure we could all make a list of "equestrian" sports that would be removed completely. 

I'm sure if you were to ask those who take part in saddleseat competitions what they think of hunter/jumpers or eventing, they would also give you a piece of their mind.

We all have our opinions, and I don't think starting this post was fair towards those who enjoy the sport.


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## Dave

*saddleseat*

thepie24 I m sorry you are in an area or a barn that the cruel treatment of saddlebreds is being done .I am new to saddlebreds as an owner but in the last year that i have been around the saddlebreds i have not saw any of what you are telling me that is going on in your area , I do know as with the T.W.H. *** that they sored horses in ways that is so unbelievable and for a long time have gotten away with it but as of this time in history it is illigeal to sore a horse and they are stopping it when ever they do catch them at it . Now i do know barns like say saddlebred rescue in i think it is new jersey , show as well as rescue saddlebreds that are being sent to the kill pens and are abuse by the type people you are seeing , i persoanly have not seen the abuse of the ASB horse but i have seen abuse in all other breeds in one form or another. like it i do not and do not allow in in my place but it happens everywhere , im sorry to say . But please before you comdem a complete breed organastion , take the time and checkout and visit some of the better or well just a lot of different saddlebred barns . I know you will see that it is a small group that are abuseing the horses not the majority , i have been in the training and buying and selling of horses for 55 yrs and i have seen a lot of different abuses in all breeds from the family pony that is forced to carry great aunt jane at 450 lb to the amish farmers who drive the horses down blacktop roads at a hard trot all day long carring people in a heavey wagon . some of the stuff you and i as well as others see as abuse to our ways is in fact a way of life to some people and groups but the bad abuse is being stopped and most ASB barns are good careing barns .. First let me assure you i have no connection with any barn or really any certain breed as i have all different breeds and types of horses , but truely go check out the barns and you will find a difference in the people of the majority do not hurt there horses , in fact the ones who hurt them are getting to be a miniority and there numbers are going down daily as people dont stand for the abuse any longer . sorry i do appolige for the long post everyone , but as most of you who talk with me i do get on my wagon and go on and on on some subjects well all subjects concerning horses. Ill take a whipping from ten big men before i let a horse im around be hurt in any way , in any barn i may be at it dont matter the horse is my life and i cherish them all even yours and i dont even know you but that this old man friends call mustang crazy me


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## Kyani

Dressage has rollkur and 'see-sawing'; AQHA halter has HYPP, tiny feet and post-legs; jumping has people lifting poles to rap horses' legs; saddleseat has this crap.

You can't use some people's bad practice as reason to dump on the entire discipline. However horrific it may be, it's not everyone, and there's probably someone doing something equally horrific in the very sport you love.

But everyone else has already covered that.


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## PoptartShop

Yeah, I have heard some bad stuff about all disciplines. It doesn't mean everyone who does it, treats the horses like that.  But in your area, that doesn't sound too good. 
They shouldn't do that.


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## thepie24

i acknowledge that all disciplines have their issues, but most of these are the result of bad riding, ignorance, or incompetence. a large number of saddleseat riders voluntarily make their horses uncomfortable on a regular basis for appearance, and its not just one or two things, its the horses' entire lifestyle. my saddlebred still won't take a bit, even a soft snaffle, without resistance because of the bicycle chain bits used on him when he was young. I'm not trying to offend, but there is no defending some of the things they do to their horses, they're beyond reason. if i **** off someone who puts a tail set on their horse, then so be it. what i have seen in the past seven years makes me sick, and I live near Wellington Florida, an area with a very high concentration professional barns and riders of all kinds


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## LadyDreamer

First off, let me say Welcome to HF! What a post to start off with. 

I will first address the Tail Sets and the issue of Cutting Tails. 

Saddlebred girl, I believe you are mistaking cutting tails with the docking of tails. I don't know about the draft breeds or pony breeds that actually dock tails, but in dogs, the tails are docked at a very young age. 

Tail cutting is a whole different thing altogether. It is most definitely NOT done as foals, for many reasons. One being, is they cannot as foals be evaluated for thier future division. It just can't be done. My father has been working with American Saddlebred Show Horses for over fifty years. He always says, "Never judge one until you put the tack on them." Babies least of all. 

It is most commonly done at the very earliest at two, and more commonly between then and five. 

Yes the op is correct. The tendons on the bottom of the tail are nicked, and they are put in a tail set so that when they heal, the tendons heal in a more stretched out, loose position than they were in. They do NOT lose the use of thier tail, nor are thier tails broken. 

After the procedure is done, the horse is required to have stall rest and limited work, so as not to screw up the purely cosmetic procedure. The tail must be cut by a professional who is experienced in such procedures and the after care is MOST important. For the first week or so after the procedure the horse should be watched carefully, and his tail cared for. His tail set(harness thing) must fit him correctly so as to reduce discomfort. The tail set is there to keep the tail as limber and straight as possible. There is a penalty in the shows for horses with crooked tails, so care must be taken to make sure the outcome is as perfect as possible. 

The cutting of tails is not necessary for a show horse, it is merely a cosmetic thing, that many believe "completes" the look of the show horse. Your horse is not penalized in any class for having an unset tail.

They cannot be cut as foals, for one reason being you don't want to limit what you can do with them, and another thing, is that they take so much time to care for, that your foal would never be allowed to be a foal. They would have to be kept in the tail set through thier childhood, which is totally unpractical, especially when you have no idea where they will excell. With less hair weighing down the tail, foals(even through adultood) will throw thier tail over thier back and prance around when they are feeling good. 

It is NOT done as a foal. 

There are some trainers who will have every horse in the barn in tail sets, because they believe that people will pay more or will think a horse is worth more when he is wearing one. 

The more experienced and more knowledgeable professionals in the breed know better, and will evaluate each horse's potential before spending thier money(which often comes FROM the horses believe it or not), on a procedure that will limit the hrose or will be unneccessary for horses destined for some divisions.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen my fair share of HORRIBLE tail jobs, either because of an inexperienced practitioner, or from lack of care and attention on the owners part. Each case is inexcuseable, and could have been easily avoided. If you aren't going to take the time to do it right, don't do it at all. 

The issue of tail cutting is a much debated and much discussed issue among the professionals in the industry, and will be settled by the professionals in the industry. Not to sound rude at all, but we do not need people who are not of the industry to become involved. It is being taken care of, I assure you, by the people who know the breed and have first hand experience in the issue. 

Ginger has nothing do do with how a horse moves. It is there as encouragement for a VERY small number or horses to hold thier tails up when not braced(a brace is something used in the showring, to help hold the tail upright and straight. I can get into that more if you would like). 

On ^ that note, nothing we ever train for in Saddleseat will ever help a horse piaffe or side pass or do any dressage maneuver, because they are two totally separate diciplines. We want different things, so we train for different things. The two cannot be compared.

Next will be bits and shoes. 

In EVERY professional trainer's barn I have been in, they have always had a special section, be it a wall, a room, or various trunks, for a WIDE collection of shoes and bits. 

Any devoted trainer knows the importance of finding the RIGHT bit that fits the horse and the horse is comfortable with. Unless the bit cannot be replaced, often times, it will go with a horse we personally sell, so that the new owner will know that that is what we got along with. 

The same goes with shoes. The majority of Saddlebreds do not have horrendous shoes nor do they weigh "a ton". The pads we put on the shoes(not allowed in some divisions), are mostly there for shock absorption. With the horse stepping higher(which is completely natural, but I'll get to that in a moment), the foot strikes the ground with more force. The pad comforts and absorbs that shock, which in turn makes the horse more comfortable. Adding slight height(not to the extent of padded TWHs which I am learning more about, and can clearly explain the differences for you if you need me to) following the wall of the hoof, gives the foot a wider base and thus more stability. 

Shoes come in all kinds of styles, each for a different purpose. With slight corrections in shoeing you can correct unevenness in the stride, winging(when they pick thier front feet up they angle out), you can help create or support the gait(if gaited, not all are), and MANY other things. I also live with an accomplished ASB farrier.(along with two trainers, two instructors, all our friends and myself). Many trainers are shoe collectors as well, so that they will have as many options in finding the right shoe for each individual horse's needs. 

CH My-My's shoes were actually 12oz half rounds. She would often break them they were so light. We are fortunate enough to have a pair of that magnificent mare's shoes above our tack room door. 

I will take a break now, and come back with more in a bit.

I would be MORE than happy to help answer anyone's questions they have on the issue. I want nothing more than for myths to be dispelled or miscommunications to be sorted out.


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## Dave

*saddlebred issues*

WOW ladydreamer That was good no that was great you do know the saddlebreds i see that . Now i feel stupid for even opening my big mouth and saying all i did . hecks i dont know saddlebreds at all with the exception of my late Broadway big Red , and really feel bad about running off the mouth . i do appolige to everyone on here for my rant as i was yaking and didnt know really how to explain what i did know about them i need to learn to shut up and leave this type issue to the people that are trely in to the breeds and know just what all happens. Thankyou for the information on the tail sets i didnt know how they did that , i knew it was a thing of large debate in the saddlebred world. And the shoes i did know from different people at several different places talking about it and my blacksmith (OLD SCHOOL) talk we had discussed it as he was fixing Reds front as well as his back feet since he was a road horse the angle was way off from what i wanted so steve and i had a good talk as to whayt was best for him . again thanks and i do appolige to all for my big mouth here DAVE


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## LadyDreamer

Oh dave, you are alright! From what you have said elsewhere, I know you are going to be a good ambassador for the breed. I do my best to educate people on our breed and trust me, I have had lots of practice and coaching. 

You mentioned Saddlebred rescue. A lot of those horses actually come from the Amish after being on the road. You'd think for how much the Amish deal in the breed and how much they use them, they would know thier feet a little better(some do, but not all). Check out the feet on some of the early pictures of some of the rescues. Some are in awful condition. But that is not from any show barn. That is from the hard life of a buggy horse. That is something I am very against. It makes me ill to see one of ours fall through the cracks and end up on the road.


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## thepie24

ladydreamer,

Thank you for the welcome, this place is new to me, and let me make it clear that I do not mean to stir up trouble of any kind, or to make people angry. If this is not the place for civilized debate on a hot issue, i will take down the post and move on. However, your well written and logical response to my posting makes me think civilized debate is possible here, but I assure you i don't mean to put anyone down, although i have very strong opinions with regard to this topic. i will never be vulgar or insulting.

I am aware of the similar treatment of morgans, arabs, national show horses, and tennessee walkers, but i have first hand experience with saddlebreds. my horse came from a barn where all of these practices occurred, and after seeing the state of their horses(their mental conditions as well as physical), i could not sit by and ignore the implications. let me make it clear that i am not targeting the discipline or the breed, but the ACTIONS taken by the riders to achieve the desired result and the state of their horses.

I am clear, however, on the difference between docking and nicking, and my comment above was with regard to the person who said they dock at a young age. i rather thought they did it quite later. that aside, i think the practice of tail setting is barbaric, unnecessary, and in a word, cruel (please don't get upset, i know its harsh, but reflect the open mind you asked of me in your answer). To force a horse to wear a harness to keep his tail in a set position, a large, uncomfortable harness at that, 24/7 is just wrong. We had a beautiful saddlebred mare named fancy who had her tail nicked, and because she didn't wear a tail set, he tail was crooked and wasn't as useful as an unnicked tail. she was euthanized of complications from ulcers at a young age, in my opinion a direct result of the stress from her saddleseat past. anyway, a line needs to be drawn in the horse community as to where we will stop "modifying" our horses at their expense. i appreciate that i am not a saddlebred rider and so it may seem like none of my business, but i cannot stand by and look the other way while horses are forced to wear tail sets. I propose the human who sets the tail of his/her horse must wear a leather harness holding their foot or maybe a finger in a set position 24/7 and see how long it lasts. 

as for the comment i made about ginger being used to perform a piaffe or jump an oxer, i did not mean that literally, but as a comparision between saddleseat and the traditional sport horse disciplines. I'm very clear that saddleseat and dressage are separate things, and have very different theories and methods of training. I meant it to be taken slightly ironically, and to counter the claims that dressage and hunter/jumper riders also use inhumane methods with their horses, but that they do not take it to the same extremes as in saddleseat.

i was not aware that the shoes served as shock absorbers, and because of that i can understand why they are shod that way, but i still am unhappy with the idea of horses not being turned out because of their shoes. Horses NEED to be outside moving about freely. i think it really can detract from their sanity and happiness if they are locked in their stalls. The barns i was at never turned their horses out because of the fear that they would throw their expensive shoes. In dressage and jumping, our horses can loose their shoes too, but the risks are worth the rewards as our horses are more sane, focused, and healthy when they are allowed to move freely, run if they want, and just smell fresh air and taste grass. Horses are meant to be in wide open spaces not confided to a 12x12 stall for 23 hours a day. research has shown that being able to roll, stretch their legs, and run without the weight of a rider or under the constraints of a frame relieved tension and made for healthier, happier horses. Horse illustrated ran an article on it a few years ago. i felt bad for my boy being locked in his entire adult life before i bought him, and he goes out for at least a few hours everyday and i swear he appreciates that more than his carrots, and he REALLY loves his carrots. that concern is the main one for me. Shoes can be useful to prevent soundness issues in performance horses, believe me i know, we have a horse who is basically 100% lame without his eggbars. but they cannot take away from the horse's lifestyle, just like the tail sets. doing so denies their very existence as horses.

thanks to everyone who responded to this post, and i'm sorry for naming it like i did. i realize its offensive, but i truly believe some of these things should be outlawed, but not necessarily saddleseat itself.


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## LadyDreamer

Attagirl! By all means, keep posting your concerns. It is good for people to see both sides of an issue, and you seem capable of intelligent debate(a lot of folks who start out with threads like these are just trolls, which is why I was worried). Let's just not get into the "Nuh uh!" name calling. 

My remarks about docking were to Saddlebred girl, who mentioned the foals. 

By all means, stick around and keep posting. You are not alone. There are many proffessionals in the breed who share the same thoughts.


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## Dave

*saddlebreds*

Ladydreamer i use the saddlebred rescue because i joined there site because of how and what they do for the saddlebreds that are comeing from the amish . they do a great job thats for sure , all ive done is read the site and see how the horses are being treated and loved . im not involved in any other way with them or any other rescue or breed group . MY big red was ex amish buggy horse for sure there


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## LadyDreamer

Dave, I've seen you on there. Doesn't it kill you to not be able to do more. I am slowly trying to build up a decent donation for them. Lots of "If onlys" with that. It sucks. They are really behind this year in donations, so I am trying to come up with promotional material to have available at horse shows. 

Okay... lets see if I can make some of this slightly better.

Well, in a lot of cases, especially during show season it is merely for the convenience of the trainer who may have 20-30 head to work a day. One of our friends actually works on average 27 a day(insert jaw dropping smiley here). Personally we don't have a many places to turn out our horses for a large chunk of the day. We do that mainly for the younger horses. We try to alternate groups every few days, and bring them in at night. For a show horse though, despite the shoes(not hard to replace if you have a farrier on hand), some are on schedule for the show season. We try to keep the lessons interesting and varying so long as it helps them to thier ultimate goal. We also try to provide as many toys as we can(usually milk jugs on strings work great) for them if they are going to be in thier stalls. Our current show prospect LOVES those apple lick toys. Also, all of our horses are allowed to see and touch and smell thier neighbor. Dad is always instilled that in us, that they are herd animals and NEED to see another. 

For Saddlebreds, it is really hard to find a decent shoer who can shoe our horses RIGHT. It is a science. Our shoer actually travels to barns in Ohio down to Alabama, and many places in between(lives in KY). Luckily for us, my dad is an accomplished shoer himself, and we don't have to rely on someone who may not even be in the state if one of ours loses a shoe. Does it make it any better? Not really, but makes sad sense. 

A lot of successful AOTs with lower numbers actually do do daily turnout, as it is more convenient for them. 

Then on the other hand, I did know of a trainer who would only allow the only contact with the horse to be only that which was necessary to get them ready. That is absurd to me. They ARE thinking animals. They DO respond to your voice and your touch. Why do that to them. I only know one like that. 

I really don't know how it is with other diciplines, but we as a general whole are very connected to our roots. We are all about the history and the past(and forgetting about the present it seems to me) and with that comes the teaching of some of the great trainers of the breed. People that revolutionized the breeding and devoted thier lives to the development of the breed. 

Here are some quotes that I think should be listened to more closely by everyone in the breed and from other breeds. 

*"Have a heart that never hardens and a temper that never tires, and a touch that never hurts." -Marty Mueller*

*"Everyone is trying to do the same thing, just in different ways." -Redd Crabtree

"You must first capture a horse's mind if you expect to capture the rest of his body. Set goals for yourself and your horse, but remember, never fight him. If you do, your I.Q. becomes lower than that of your horse; and if you pick a fight, you'll lose, because you are fighting out of your weight division." -Jimmy Williams*

*"Always train the horse's attitude. Don't overtrain a horse or you'll lose his show horse attitude." -Redd Crabtree*

*"It's what you learn after you think you know it all that counts." -Jimmy Williams*



If you would like I could try to explain the reason behind things such as stretchies, chains, and "entertainment"(plastic bags, streamers, talcum powder, cans, and yes, even firecrackers, etc.) I'll do my best to explain our motives.


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## Jrchloe

You have to remember a good show horse is a happy show horse. An annoyed, lame, uncared for horse is not worth the money to show. We love our horses and most of them love their job. A good trainer can see a horse is unhappy and either try to cater to the horse (you will see many a horse with a friend, toys, walked a few times a day, etc) or will find a new home for them that can suit to their needs. Sadly there are some trainers that try to force a square peg into a round hole and thats when you get unhappy, ruined horses. It hurts my feels when I see someone saying that the disipline I love (I have ridden huntseat and western and nothing compares to a great saddleseat horse) should be outlawed for a few bad apples or misunderstood training practices that where developed to enhance our breeds talents which are much different than other breeds when there are really awful things in the horse world that should be taken care of (starving horses, real abused horses and a abandoned horses). I too would be happy to explain our practices if you would like.

LadyDreamer I too wish there was more I could do. Sadly I can barely feed myself haha.

edited to remove swearing. please refrain from using any swear words om the forum


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## Saddlebred girl

*Sorry*

Hi i just want to say im sorry for making a mistake in saying foals have their tails nicked.i dont own a saddlebred but i ride them and a friend of mine who own saddlebreds told me their tails are nicked as foals.she was wrong.im really sorry i posted wrong information.but saddlebreds are an amazing breed here in South Africa horses are disqualified in a show if their tail sets are not neat or if their false tails falls off.i am very proud to ride saddlebreds they are very intelligent and they have taught me lots about riding.you have to have very gentle hands if you ride saddlebreds.thanks for teaching me more about saddlebreds


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## Vidaloco

I'm so proud of you all  
When I saw this topic come up again I thought 'uh-oh here we go again'. Thank you for being intellegent adults in your posts. Please remember the conscientious etiquette policy for any future input.


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## thepie24

i just can't understand how people can honestly and in good consciousness think that their horses are happy when they are wearing tail sets, being shouted at and riled up in the ring, and never have a chance to just relax and be horses. I've been to gorgeous, immaculate, professional saddleseat barns who take excellent care of there horses, yet the look in their horses' eyes is sad and depressed, and its no wonder when they're never let out and are constantly wearing that stupid tail set harness. if the horses can't do the gaits with only a bridle and saddle facilitating communication between them and the rider, maybe they shouldn't be forced into it with shoes and tail sets, because thats exactly what those things do, they force the horses to hold their tails up and to lift their legs higher. sure theres an element of this in all forms of horseback riding, but saddleseat has made a sport out of artificial techniques.

have you ever considered that the reason this topic keeps coming up is because there is something wrong? i certainly won't let it lie, not while horses are living lives like some saddleseat horses currently are.


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## Cheval

When I first looked at this topic, I thought it was going to be a huge mess. But, I was wrong!
My opinion is that there a ton of crap in EVERY discipline - jumping, dressage, western, halter, saddleseat, trail, etc. when it comes down to showing (most of the time).
Anyway, I hate the treatment of these animals. I don't think saddleseat has to _stop_ but there should make a law that only "people with a brain can own horses!" (Meaning that people wouldn't neglect, abuse, etc. them). Obviously, the "saddleseaters" on here have a brain, and realize that there is crap in that discipline however treat their horses nicely and with respect. The only thing that really drives me up the wall with saddleseat is the chains and shoes. 
But, this is coming from a person who doesn't have experience with Saddleseat, so please excuse/correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Kyani

Yes, there is something wrong with saddleseat. A LOT wrong. Perhaps more than other disciplines (or just more public), who knows? HOWEVER, it's not ALL saddleseat. You can ride saddleseat without being abusive - they're not one and the same.

Obviously the 'saddleseaters' here do not condone the cruelty either, yet they still love the sport. I feel there might be a blurry area when it comes to tail setting: I certainly do NOT agree with the practice any more than I agree with cropping/docking dogs ears and tails, nevermind how many times people explaint he procedure to me. But there a bigger fish to fry here - ridiculous shoeing, chains, soring etc - and worse things going on that tendon-nicking in many other disciplines.


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## Harlee rides horses

thepie24 said:


> Tail nicking seems the most extreme, i mean surgery when they're born? give them a chance at a normal life at least. And the tail sets are down right miserable for those horses.


How does where a horse's tail is set matter if they live a normal life or not? As Tim said, if you dig deep enough in *any* discipline you can find anything that you could consider "abusive" like how people tie their horse's head up in pleasure to make their heads go down, or hobble them to move slow, its all a matter of the person, you can't stereotype when it comes to horse's disciplines, it will just cause arguments when you generally categorize disciplines, it gets offensive.


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## Abby

Did you know that people in Western Pleasure actually inject into the horses tail so it is limp? The horse cant even swat flys. Its called tail blocking. There is the worst of both words, tail nicking and tail blocking.


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## thepie24

harlee,

how can cutting the nerves out of a horse's tail and then having them wear a full body harness 24/7 not affect the quality of their lives? like i said before, if you take the tail out of the tail set, it becomes crooked and doesn't work like an unnicked tail. 
and as for all disciplines having their problems, like i said before, saddleseat takes extreme measures with their horses on a daily basis, and their entire discipline is defined by artificial movements and appearances, such as the tail sets and shoes. I'm not "generally categorizing" them because that is their sport.


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## thepie24

abby,

i've never heard of tailblocking; that is sick too. but at least it doesn't involve a uncomfortable harness and disfiguring horses.


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## Harlee rides horses

I don't see how having a tail being nicked is going to ruin a horses life. I mean seriously it's not like they sit there and moan and groan about a tail. You need to stop categorizing every saddleseat rider as an abusive owner and realize that there are humane and safe ways to do everything.


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## thepie24

i don't think it is human to make a horse stand in a stall, wear very tall shoes, and deal with a harness similar to a carriage harness EVERY day of their life, day and night. i wish they could moan and groan about it, maybe then they'd tell you what its like. 
again, i'm not saying all of saddleseat is bad and evil, but that they use extreme and artificial methods.


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## tim

Not to call you naive, but honestly, what do you hope to accomplish?


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## Jrchloe

LadyDreamer do you think its worth it to explain our logic?


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## LadyDreamer

It is ALWAYS worth trying to explain things. Even if the OP doesn't change her thinking(not trying to force our opinions on you OP. you have valid concerns and all) there may be someone reading who could go either way. If we "back out" we may be perceived as having something to hide. And you never know who will be reading this thing.

Since this is not a private conversation, and open for all eyes to see, then yes, I think it would be beneficial(I hope anyway. These things can go both ways) to explain our methods. WE have to keep an open mind about these things. Besides, this seems like a more accepting group than many that I have tried to deal with before. 

Let me scan the posts since my last and I'll work something out.


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## jazzyrider

im going to chime in even though i said to myself i wouldnt because i know very little about the actual subject but then i realised this is a subject that can be commented on even if you dont know much about the actual subject. 

the methods that have been mentioned are IMO things that need to be addressed. so everyone doesnt do it. who cares??? a number of people do do it and it doesnt matter whether 1 or 1000000 horses are put through anything so uncomfortable isnt the issue. the issue is that it happens to start with. do child services say 'no, that man can beat his child up because not everyone does it so you cant judge everyone based on him?' of course not. each case is treated for the case it is and punishment etc is designed to suit the wrongs. 

tim - maybe she wont achieve anything but as someone told me recently, you may hit brick wall after brick wall but if you really want to make a difference you try anything and everything you can. props to the people who see injustice and decide to try and help. if everyone was discouraged by having people say 'what can you do about it anyway' then no injustice would ever be righted. and while this goes for any discipline that has issues, obviously the OP is only going to comment and what he/she has seen.

i do understand the need to advocate that these issues are not things that are 'the norm' however all we can do is offer our say and not go out of our way to CHANGE how that person feels. passion is what makes miracles and if someone has the passion to take something on board then good on 'em 

once again, as vida mentioned, please remember our conscientious etiquette policy when responding to people and respect everyones right to feel a certain way about a subject


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## Jrchloe

Before the trotting saddleseat methods are explained please realize that most of the abuse sadly comes from the gaited breeds mainly Tennessee Walking Horses. They are the ones who are sored, have their feet cut as short as possible then have 6 inches of pad up front, and are treated just as rough.


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## PoptartShop

We're kinda running off-topic but yeah, each riding discipline is not perfect.  They all have some flaws of SOME sort...or something someone's going to disagree with. 

For example, this girl I used to know @ my barn HATES people who do jumping. She says it's cruel & the horse can easily get injured. That didn't change how I ride...I still jump lol.  Riding PERIOD can be dangerous itself! The horse/&/or rider can get injured whenever! 
But anyway, just because some saddleseat riders treat their horses like that, doesn't mean all of them do.  Just like with horse owners...some abuse their horses, some don't. It's kinda like a stereotype. Same with the Tennesee Walking Horses...not ALL people who ride them/have them treat 'em like that.  'Ya see what I'm saying?

Anyway I'm off to bed lol ahhh addicted to this forum! :lol:


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## LadyDreamer

As a breed, we really need a new book on the Modern aspect of the breed.

I am going to post again on the tail cutting issue, and I really want to get into some of the other issues, like shoes and so on... One topic at a time though. Don't want to muddy things up.  

*Tail Sets*

Kyani is very right. This is a VERY blurry issue even for "us". Very blurry. 

When the tail is cut it is not the nerve, but the tendon that allows the horse to clamp his tail down with much force that is cut. 

This all started for practical reasons, just like the docking of tails of working drafts was practical to keep the tail clear of the machinery. Part of what Saddlebreds were used for back in the day were for fancy carriage horses. 

The tail cutting came about because of thier carriage background. If the driving lines were to get caught under the horse's tail, and he were to clamp his tail then the result could be absolutely disastrous. 

It is one thing riding a horse and having it freak out and throw you. It is quite another ordeal indeed when you are in a cart and your horse freaks out(which can happen if a horse clamps his tail on the lines). I've seen so many more horrible driving accidents than riding accidents. Really, I couldn't care less if a rider falls off. So what. Go catch the horse and make sure the rider is okay. If a driver gets tossed out of a cart, that horse is running blinded from what is behind him, being chased by a big rattly thing that has a possibility of hitting him behind and is closed in on both sides of him, and he has NO contact with his driver, which leaves him confused and scared. 

It started with a practical use, and is now merely a cosmetic procedure. 

The people in favor of set tails believe that it completes the look. That it balances out the overall appearance of the horse.

Here is how we get our horses ready to have thier tails cut. First we fit a Tail Set to them. It is very loose, and care is taken so that it is fit to each individual perfectly. If a part of it rubs, then that part is either covered in fleece like a shipping halter type, or simply the part is removed or adjusted.

To help ready the tail, we put what is called a bustle on them, which is just a really thick crupper. ( http://ehorseequipment.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=486 ) This, in the process of getting the horse used to wearing the set, helps stretch the tail so that the procedure and healing time is better for them.

After they are fitted and comfortable with thier tail set, then they are ready to have thier tails cut. We personally use our vet, because he is very experienced, well reccommended and has done an exceptional job on ours. The horse is sedated, and the area anesthetized. The vet has the tail held upright and straight as he performs the slight nick to the two tendons that allow a horse to clamp his tail tightly to his rump. After the cut the tail is bandaged and put in the tailset, thistime with a higher set crupper. During the healing period, the tail MUST MUST MUST be cared for dilligently. The horse should be checked throughout the day for the entire healing process to make sure the set hasn't slipped, and the tailset needs to be changed every day. As the tail heals, the tendons heal in a more stretched out version of what they were before and they lose the ability to clamp thier tail. They still have full movement of the tail, though yes it is limited in the set. (I've been whacked in the face to often by my old gelding to know that one! Hah!). Actually, during this healing time, ours are usually well padded with cotton to make them more comfortable.

Since we often do not have an entire barn full of horses in sets, usually, after we are confident that the tail is completely healed and the horse is doing well with it, the set comes off in the morning before breakfast, and put on in the evening before dinner. 

The aftercare is SO important to the outcome. The tails are part of the overall picture, and if you don't care for it as you should, you have wasted all your time and money. I will try to come up with an average price what the end cost usually is on having one horse's tail done.

I'll use the analogy that I used in the other thread. If you are going to get braces on your teeth(had them for six years), you had BEST wear your retainer when you get them off. You may not wear them all the time, but thier importance is paramount to the appearance and outcome of your teeth.

Next up, I hope, will be the Shoes.


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## Vidaloco

Thanks for that LadyDreamer, very informative. I knew nothing about it before. I don't see it as abusive at all. They can still use the tail to swish flys and slap us in the face so whats the problem? No different then some of the cosmetic things we do to ourselves as humans. You could say, well the horse can't complain. If thats the case then every mother who takes her infant in to get the ears pierced should be arrested for abuse. Same logic as far as I can see. I'm sure most stallions would prefer not to be gelded. You could cry abuse on that one too. I realize everyone has their own soapbox. I just think there are other, more important issues to "preach" about.

Hasn't soring of the hoof been made illegal by most of the associations that used to do it?


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## Dave

*saddleseat issues*

Hello again If a person stops and looks at all breeds and riders or owners they can find things wrong with how and why any training means is cruel to a horse the completely happy horse is one that is wild not saddled in any way. If i want my mustangs to be truely happy with my rideing them ,and they do show me the difference when i go barback with just an indian bitless on them . I dont want to see any horse trained for show or any disapline with pain . But in our world it happens in all breeds in some way or another . The walking horse breed is in the spot light very heavely at this time do to the soreing and heavey front shoes , if you look in to it they all do something bad to horses in some way . for the show ring the jumping ring reining cutting western pleasure ect just some breeds are more in the light at this time with show season in full swing


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## Cheval

I think it's more the methods they use than saddleseat itself.
I do not agree with the tailsets and chains at all, though.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl

I can feel myself getting smarter!!!!!!! On to the shoes... I want to learn more!!!!! :lol:


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## Kyani

LadyDreamer, thanks for the info on tail sets! Like I said, I put it on a level with cropped ears and docked tails. None are really going to affect an animal's quality of life in any way, and if they actually help the animal perform its function then go right ahead! Cropping/docking has been outlawed here unless you can prove the dog is to be trained as a working animal and the removal of a tail would make its life easier. Fair enough, I think. The same with docking working/carriage horses' tails. (I'm not sure there are any legitimate reason for ear cropping but that's a different issue)
I don't have much experience working with carriage/working horses (although I'm hopinh that'll change this summer - it's my nest dsicipline to get my hands on) so I hadn't thought that much about that function of tail setting - makes sense! Exactly the same principle. HOWEVER, I will never agree with it purely for cosmetic reasons, just as I don't agree with docking dogs' tails for 'tradition'. It's just a principle I have that's it's not right to physically/permenantly alter an animal's body from what it's meant to be for vanity. It's a step further on from my personal dislike of anything fake, I suppose. I can't STAND any of that fake-tails down to the ground, make up on show horses stuff (not permitted in British showing anyway). That's personal taste, but the tail-set/docking thing is a bit further, with more principle behind it, I feel.
But, like I said, the practice doesn't strictly HARM the horse in any way and I'm sure we've all seen far worse things done to horses in the showing world, so it's not an issue I feel needs attention right now.

I only heard about tail blocking recently but that sounds far worse, actually removing the function of an animal's limb.


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## Jrchloe

Also not every Saddlebred show horse's tail is nicked. If stretching can do an adequate job so they can wear their tail loosely over their back then its just stretched everyday and they wear a set to keep it limber its just some horse's tails are tigher than others.

Long tails and the "fake" tails in no way hurt the horse. Thats like saying a wig hurts the person whos wearing it.


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## thepie24

for those of you who say tail setting and the shoes don't harm the horse in anyway, i recommend you visit a saddleseat barn, see a tail set, see the shoes and ask yourself what it would be like to wear such things 24/7. it may not cause them to bleed, but honestly what kind of life is that? all that stuff just tries to make them pretty, ignores the fact that they're horses.

just because something has been done for 100 years doesn't mean it should be done today. there is no PRACTICAL reason for tail sets at all. none. it is all for appearances, which is ridiculous. if it had a practical application, i would not have posted this. the law should be exactly as it is for dogs (no cropping unless it is practical for their work). 90% of saddleseat is false: the shoes make them pick their legs up higher, the bits make them carry their heads higher, and the tail sets make them carry their tails higher. that cannot be denied. its not like they're jumping or doing something physical and the appearance is just a plus like most disciplines. so what is the competition, who has the best farrier or the best tail set job? i understand that is not all they are judged on and that the horse has to have some natural ability, but you couldn't show the horses with out shoes could you? w/o tail sets, yea, but then your horse couldn't hold his tail unnaturally high for extended periods.

and for the thousandth time, yes all disciplines have problems, but at least those problems are looked down on or banned in other disciplines. in saddleseat its accepted as the norm.


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## Jrchloe

Thepie24 have you actually read any of the posts? Your prejudice is blocking any information that we are trying to give you. Yes please go to a saddleseat barn. You'll see a few horses wearing sets but not all. You look at them and if you aren't like oh they are so sad but actually look at them without your prejudice you would see they are happy. I have had h/j friends who thought the same thing as you and then acutally spent a few days hanging out while I did my thing (grooming and riding) and they watched the horses being worked and such. When they left they told me they were surprised how happy and well cared for the horses actually where. They even told me that the science and technique behind the shoeing was cool and that they were very misinformed. LadyDreamer explained the tail setting very well so I really have nothing to add and am waiting for her well writen explaination on shoes and training prodecures before I say my part.


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## LadyDreamer

I REALLY did not want to have to pick apart your post but to address every thing, I feel I must. 

*" i recommend you visit a saddleseat barn, see a tail set, see the shoes and ask yourself what it would be like to wear such things 24/7"*

Anyone who wants to, send me your location, and I will find you a barn to give you a tour. That offer stands. Be sure to ask questions!

The tail sets are not worn 24/7, at least not after the tail has healed. Like Jrchloe said, they only really need to be put on a week before the show to get thier tails ready for the show

And the shoes are not worn every day of thier lives. Once show season is over, the shoes are pulled. I'm getting to the shoes, never fear. 

*"just because something has been done for 100 years doesn't mean it should be done today. there is no PRACTICAL reason for tail sets at all. none. it is all for appearances, which is ridiculous. if it had a practical application, i would not have posted this. the law should be exactly as it is for dogs (no cropping unless it is practical for their work). "*

It WAS practical. I don't know if you have ever seen a carriage wreck. We are a breed MIRED in History. We love our roots. Nearly every single book about saddlebreds is about saddlebred history(which is why I say we need a new book). Historic horses, historic places, historic people. Tail cutting was developed back then for a practical reason, and the look was adopted as what makes the horse look "complete" it balances the high headset and strong motion. Yes it is ALL about looks now, and still has practicality. Nearly 90% of all Saddlebreds are broke to drive. 

The docking and cropping of dogs is illegal in the UK, not in the US. In the UK, I don't even think you can show an imported dog who has been docked and cropped. I don't know if that applies to horses. 

*"the shoes make them pick their legs up higher, the bits make them carry their heads higher, and the tail sets make them carry their tails higher"*

Darn, I cant compete with that with words. . . so pictures will have to do. Note, that all of these horses are barefoot. This is what we breed for. Looks and motion.
























































This was as a yearling. His tail was completely untouched. 






















































This horse actually couldn't pick his legs up to save his life. He was a western pleasure horse.










If a horse can't do these things, he won't and nothing we can do can make him. We can try to help them if they don't lift thier heads up high enough, we can do stretching exercises in the form of a high Hay Bag, thier choice. I read in some dusty old book that horses work against pressure, so the addition of weight can help a horse pick up thier feet more. I'm still working on that post.

Saddlebreds are taught to not be on the bit. There is often VERY little contact in the horse's mouth. 

We show our horses in a double bridle. It has a curb bit, and a very small snaffle called a bridoon. Most of the contact with the horse's mouth is done through the snaffle. The curb bit is there to bring the horse's head and nose DOWN and help him set his head. 

I am VERY scared of putting pressure on the curb. It is one of the things that gets me yelled at when I ride. When I was younger, I had a horse rear straight up with me when I put too much pressure on the curb. Even after ten years I am still scared of contact. I'll admit it!


*"its not like they're jumping or doing something physical and the appearance is just a plus like most disciplines. so what is the competition, who has the best farrier or the best tail set job?"*

In a timed event, you could show something comparable to a cow, and have a chance at placing. Even in an individual performance, like dressage, it is how that horse performs a pattern.

In saddleseat it is ALL about looks. Most of our horses do not perform any fantastic maneuver like a dressage horse. They are asked to do three to five gaits, while going around in a circle. How they move and how they look, and in some classes, how they are made, is directly compared to every other horse in the class. 


*"understand that is not all they are judged on and that the horse has to have some natural ability, but you couldn't show the horses with out shoes could you?"*

Actually....  Ch My-my won Louisville(the World Championships) completely barefoot. It wasn't planned, but she threw a shoe in the Warm Up ring, and instead of risking her performance to the show farrier, her owners actually had him pull her other shoe. 

Ch My-My









Look at the foot on this mare. This mare is actually 25 this year, and still completely sound. She actually has full run of our farm.


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## Jrchloe

This horse is barefoot.


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## LadyDreamer

Man you can't train those hocks on one. 

For the life of me, I can't organize my thoughts right now. I'll get my thoughts together this weekend. 

Here is an exerpt from "Exploding the Myths!" by Cheryl Lutring who is the president of the American Saddlebred Association of Great Britain. 

*"Myth No.5: The long feet are what make the horses gait and give them their motion. 

Answer: I wish it was that easy! In general Saddlebreds do not have excessively long feet. I have measured scores in my time and found no feet over 4" long - my endurance Arabians have 3.75" feet. But it is a common practise to allow the natural heel to grow rather than cutting back each time like an English farrier would do. However, because of the speeds and elevation they achieve, they are provided with a pad between the shoe and hoof to protect them from concussion. This combined with the heel growth gives the hoof a longer look. Usually the intending five-gaited Saddlebred is schooled for correctness and accuracy in his gaits, when totally barefoot. The above points have filled the apportioned space for the regular Saddlebred feature, and have been written from personal experience with my own and other imported show Saddlebreds, and training visits to professional barns in the USA; the queries have been drawn from the questions I have been regularly asked when demonstrating and displaying the five-gaited Saddlebred. " *

In fact here are the pages for you. 
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/protean/myths.htm 
http://www.american-saddlebred.com/protean/myths2.htm 

Now, a big lick TWH is the one with the "Stacks" and huge pads on thier feet. I have started doing my research on them, and have found that a lot of times those big shoes weigh less than a pound a piece. They are just adding height to thier movement for exaggeration. They are a whole 'nother breed of cat, and should not be compared ever to the American Saddlebred. While the similarities are present, the ultimate goals, and methods to get us there are vastly different. 

Saddlebreds do not need the height to travel like they do, as they can already trot like that. Generally speaking, a Saddlebred's foot is on average no more than a normal 4". 

Which brings me to the addition of weight. I read in an old dusty book that the addition of a slight amount of weight can improve a horse's motion. It can be because of how a horse moves in relation to the weight, but it also helps a horse control the movement a bit better. 

Imagine if you will, an empty pail. When you swing it back and forth it is a little shakey and uncoordinated. If you add some water to the pail, you will find that it is more stable and controlled when you swing it back and forth. Sometimes, to help control the placement and height, and form of the stride, weight can be added. 

This is not always necessary, needed or used, mind. 

There are many types of shoes, all that have different purposes. Like I mentioned, most trainers I know have a very large collection of shoes. 

Chains 

The purpose of chains is to get the horse to try and step out of them. They are not meant to hurt in any way and really, they do not. I have worn them several times myself, and plan on doing so again when I start wearing sandals again or Tennis shoes that would be better for the experiment(ones that show my ankles). They are put loosely around the fetlocks. They are also considered a timing device, as the horse will tend to fall into a better rhythm with them on. 

I will try to go into better detail later.


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## Jrchloe

The shoes in the Saddle Seat world (TWH industry is much different) are not what you think. They are used to help the horse control its motion and the weight can be placed in different parts of the shoe to help correct movement (such as winging out or reaching out too much). You can not put weight on a horse expecting to give it more motion. If you put too much weight on the horse it does the opposite of what you want. We want out horse’s to give the best they can and if the shoes are too heavy for them you lose motion and they labor at the trot (undesirable). If the shoes are too heavy then the horse can't and won't lift their legs up as high and we want our horses as high and square as they can go. Some horse's have so much talent with their legs that they really can't control what they do with their legs. So a little weight added in a certain spot on the hoof can help the horse either tuck their foot under more or out more and so on. Except for the Saddlebreds which other breeds’ standards and rules are based from has length and weight rules. Saddlebreds do not have these rules except for the country pleasure division because our horses have the most extreme motion naturally and the shoes just help control the movement. Usually you want as least weight to get what you want. If the horse doesn’t need the weight it’s not used. Pads are not bad for the hoof. They add cushion just like a running shoe. Think of how high our horse’s lift their legs up and the shock their legs have to endure without some cushion. While yes there are plain shod horse’s they do not usually have the extreme action as other division horses and usually at home they have a little pad (think of a Ked and then more pads as a Nike running shoe). Also the weight of an average show shoe is around 18 -20 oz (same as a steel toed construction boot a person would wear).

The small chains which can range for 2-8 oz in weight (that we use) do help with motion. The chains make the horse much more aware of their legs. Think of you wearing a heavy charm bracelet that you don't wear all the time. When you wear the bracelet you are very aware of that arm. Its the same idea. It helps the horse with their timing, balance and control because they are aware of these things on their legs which makes them more aware of what they are doing with their legs. They are very light especially to the 1000 lb horse and do not hurt them (I have run around with them on my legs so I know personally haha). The little added weight also allows a horse with cordination problems get more control of their legs because they have a little more stability. Once the horse understands how to control their legs they usually only wear them while worked if needed.


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## Kyani

JRChloe - in no way am I suggesting fake tails etc harm a horse or even upset it in any way. I just don't like the look of them, personally. I think it looks silly to have something that fake on a horse - I find it ridiculous that some peole put MAKE UP on their horses. It just make me laugh. But it's just me.


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## Jrchloe

Long pretty tails show that the horse is well taken care of just like a shiny coat (whats the purpose of a shiny smooth coat, nothing other than its pretty). The makeup is to cover up any imperfections (scratches, scars) that a judge might see or a perspective buyer might think is a problem but really isn't. If someone does come to see the horse and sees the imperfection they will see its easily covered so it shouldn't deter them from the horse.


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## Kyani

I'm aware that some people like them, yeah, it's the FAKENESS that bothers me. I love a long, shiny tail as much as anyone else - they're gorgeous so long as they're natural. You can always tell when they're fake and I PERSONALLY think they look ridiculous.
It's probably the way I've been brought up around horses - fake tails and make up etc were never allowed in shows here so I'm not used to seeing fake things like that. Plus, I've always been mostly involved in M&M showing, where the horses have to be turned out in a COMPLETELY natural (although tidied up) state. But even arabs, TBs etc here aren't turned out with fake attatchments.


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## Jrchloe

We work very hard and spend a lot of money on making the tail look as natural as possible. Our switches are much more expensive than other breed's. If I posted pictures of show horses with a switch and one without it would be hard for you to be able to tell which was which.


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## missy45690

ok i have a question, maybe you might think im stupid but know nothing of saddleseat, would someone please explain it to me, this makes twice i have seen on here that someone says its cruel
please inform me


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## LadyDreamer

It comes up so much because it is not a common dicipline. Not many people know much about it. They hear things, or see things without asking anyone who could tell them "Why" and so do not get any answers for thier questions and come to thier own conclusions. That is my mere assumption on why people keep bringing it up. I have gotten into many of these discussions and 95% of the time they are started by people who say "I know nothing about saddleseat but here is how I feel about it."

Personally, I know nothing about Hunter Jumpers or dressage, other than it looks pretty interesting and neat, but not something I could watch for a better part of the day. They all look the same to me. I lack the knowledge to comment on it. I simply don't know what looks good. Jumping is easy. They are just time and mistakes(that add time) that determine the winner, right?

While watching the Clinton Anderson Clinic, I was picturing his horse Diaz with a set tail. What an absolute hideous creature that would be! Hah, head down, tail up. 

JrChloe, it is okay for folks to not like the tails. Hah, I don't know if you saw the thread on Trot. Even so, some anti-cut tail folks take great pride in the tails they help put in the ring. The key is to make the "switch" look as natural as possible. Come on, you can't tell me you've gone to a show and not pointed out a poorly put in Switch. :wink: Sometimes they stand out like a sore thumb. 

There is BIG money in tails.


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## Jrchloe

Yes but those people I like to just learn from what not to do and then move on haha. I have spent many an hour with my trainer cleaning, organizing and picking out switches for horses. Oh the good times.


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## Jrchloe

missy45690 check out these websites and please feel free to ask any questions you might have from the following articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_seat

http://www.peeperranch.com/saddleseat.htm

http://www.horse.on.ca/programs/coaching/sseat_overview.html


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## PoptartShop

This is all very interesting info, thanks!


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## Jrchloe

So what is next, training techniques?


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## Kyani

missy, if you want to know what it is that makes some people condemn the whole discipline, check out today's post on fuglyhorseoftheday.

NOTE (before anyone panics) 

THIS IS NOT SADDLESEAT. This is a minority of evil -word-I-should-not-say-s doing horrific things to their horses. It happens in every discipline, except the horrible practices which SOME people follow in SOME saddleseat disciplines are generally viewed as some of the worst out there. Not only that but they are far more publicised (should be even more public, if you ask me).
Unfortunately, this has led to some people assuming ALL saddleseat is equally as bad, which is certainly not true.


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## Jrchloe

Well thats not what saddleseat is, what TWH is a breed thing. Just like saying tying a horse's neck up so it will be tired and keep it low is a western thing when it used to be a QH (I think thats the right breed) thing.


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## Kyani

Well, yeah, I said it's not saddleseat :wink: It's a perfect example, though, of why a lot of people hate saddleseat as a whole when they shouldn't, they should only hate those who do this.


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## Jrchloe

Well thats not saddleseat really at all. While it does take some skill to ride a gaited horse it is much much different than riding a trotting breed. No one else in the saddleseat breeds sore their horses since a sore horse can not trot square and the other gaited breeds do not have the extreme gaits like the TWHs. Its not really fair that what just the TWs are doing becomes catagorized as normal saddleseat practices.


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## PoptartShop

Wow. :shock:
Yeah, I hate how like, people think EVERY person who does a certan discipline treats their horse like wrong, only because some people in that discipline do that stuff.


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## Ride4Life

ya i agree that pretty much all the equestrian sports have crazy horse owners that abuse there horses just for a prize at a show but i mean not every1 is like that..i got a bad introduction to saddleseat tho. like i no not all the owners do this but this is how i got introduced to it..
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html
just scroll down until u see the twh story
it just sickened me..


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## Jrchloe

The soring of TWH is illegal and each horse is checked by the USDA before each class and the winner after the class. If the horse shows signs of soring of any sort then it is not allowed to show and if the winner shows signs after the class the ribbon is striped. Sadly this still does not stop the practice but it has helped a lot. I am not a TWH rider but I have been at shows with them so I have seen the inspection process. 

The feet of the big lick TWH are trimmed to normal horse length (such as a h/j) and then large stacks of pads are nailed to the foot. If they do use any weight I believe its the same kind as other SS breeds which are not very heavy. So the whole foot is not weighted just stacked with pads. This raises up the front end so they can put their weight on their backend to open up the front end so they can do do their thing. 

Just wanted to clear somethings up. While I do not agree with the high stacks of pads, how rough they are with their horses or all of their training techniques I will say that the actual breed of TWH are great horses. My friends and I can watch a ASB class and a Morgan SS class and can usually tie the horses pretty close to the judge but in flat shod and big lick walking classes all of our ties where way off haha so it is very different.


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## Solon

My first experience seeing these horses was at the state fair a couple of years back. We were walking through the horse barn and I was watching these people crank up a horse's tail to some sort of rigging at the withers. 

I tell ya, it made me cross my legs because that could NOT have been comfortable. Then started hearing about other things they were doing with ginger and I thought how in the heck is this even legal. Never been a fan since.


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## Jrchloe

Well like we have explained before the horse's tail has been nicked so the tendon is loose. Before you show if you have a horse that has a tail that needs to stay up then you can tie a polo wrap around the tail and then hold it up under the saddle or something else to keep it up. The ginger does not hurt the horse no matter how much you think it would. If it hurt the horse it would make the horse unhappy and I don't know any horse that if something was bothering it especially with the backend it wouldn't let you know (i.e. kicking, pinning its ears back, bitting, etc). Also since the horse is gingered right before the class if it hurt or ****ed him off he would not be able to perform with its ear's forward and staying on its feet which would not be good in the show ring. Our horse's are extremely expressive and they will let you know how they feel right then and there.

If you saw this happening and didn't know what was going on why didn't you ask any questions to the trainers or grooms instead of just seeing and assuming?


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## Solon

I didn't ask them questions at the time because they were getting ready for the show and I didn't want to interrupt them. And there's no need to be defensive. From the standpoint of a person who's not familiar with that whole style, it looks like it would be painful! It's obviously something people enjoy doing with their horses. I don't get why the horse's tail can't be where it normally would be, but again, different style I guess.


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## Jrchloe

I don't mean to be defensive it just gets really old that people just assume and don't ask then the whole disipline has rumors spread.

The reason for the tail up has been explained in this post. If you have more questions from the explaination please just ask don't assume.


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## Solon

I was replying with my personal experience in regard to the topic of this thread. I've never been around those horses since, as I avoided that barn on future visits to the state fair. After reading this thread it doesn't make me feel like it'd be any less uncomfortable though!


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## Solon

LadyDreamer - thanks for you descriptions and insight. I think your way of explaining things is really good. I don't really agree with the whole tail thing still but I understand it more after reading your posts. Well done.


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## Jrchloe

Oh please go visit a saddlebred or morgan saddle seat training facility. You will find that its not what you think. I ride saddle seat but I too would feel uncomfortable at a TWH barn. I wish I had a facility to invite you to but maybe one day hehe.


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## Solon

I think it's just personal taste. It's not a discipline I would participate in, but the thread has been interesting to read both sides of the coin.


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## Kyani

Sorry, JrChloe - are you advocating the use of GINGER?

Please tell me I have read that wrong. I would never ever consider using a tail brace on any horse, but I would not totally condemn people for it. Gingering is another level. 'The ginger does not hurt the horse'. Uh huh. So why use it? If the horse couldn't feel it it wouldn't have any USE, am I right?

And don't tell me that a horse in pain can't go into the ring and perform. We all know abuse happens in showing, not just in saddleseat but in EVERY discipline and horses is pain can be and ARE placed. There's no denying it.

I am appalled.


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## PoptartShop

Yeah, every discipline can be "bad" one way or the other. Not everyone who rides saddleseat does that, but then again, I do not know what it's like since I've never seen any or gone to any shows.


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## Jrchloe

Ginger just causes a tingling sensation that does not last very long. If it were to hurt I doubt the horse would lift up its tail and be happy. You have never been on an unhappy Saddlebred haha, I have been on many asbs and they will let you know whats up even the calm ones. The look of the Saddlebred is happy and they are light in the bridle with their ears forward and if they are unhappy ears go back, they get heavy in the bridle, etc. You can tell when a horse is in pain unless they have been given something to block it. I personally doubt I would do it unless the horse is extremely tight and won't let me lift its tail no matter what (doesn't happen every often). I have issues with cross country horses jumping over things when they have no idea whats on the other side, fall and break their neck or teaching horses to jump by hitting them with the poles, etc which is much more harmful or dangerous than a light ginger paste. But anyway the only serious abuse comes from the gaited breeds because its harder to tell if they are in pain because they do not have to be square. Soring breaks my heart because TWHs are really cool, loyal horses who work really hard, have a different way of going and its the trainer's fault for doing it but really its the owner's fault. If the owner were to say no because they want to actually have the horse trained and not use short cuts then the soring issue would be over. Theres a whole lot of money in TWH like racehorses (the majority of SS horses can't even come close to that kind of money thank god) so winning is the most important. 

I believe the next subject to be covered by LadyDreamer was the training techniques but if anyone has any questions about them first please ask and we will be very happy to answer.


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## breezeypoo&lt;3

I show Rocky Mnts saddleseat, & they are the most natural horse anywhere [no training methods/enhancments].the only reason I dont allow my mare Breeze out is due to her color [dark chocolate] that if she fades,she looks hideous.All of my other horses are turned out constantly,& Breeze gets about an hour a day in a round pen.You can find the downside to anything if you really look for it.


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## LadyDreamer

Sorry, I didn't see this, else, I'd have been back days ago.

Solon, the harness rigging thing you saw was probably that. Driving harness. That is about the only thing I can think of where a horse getting ready for a show would have the "brace" directly attached to something around the withers. In that case, it wouldn't even be a "brace" per se, but what is called a high-tail crupper attached to a driving sursingle. The horse you saw was probably a Fine Harness, driving horse. That is what it sounds to me. 

If you ever find yourself wanting to experience it again, let me know, and I'll help you find a good place. 

I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind on the issue. Not everyone has to like it. Not everyone has to ride it. Not everyone has to agree on the same thing. The only thing I am going to do is try to explain things to the best of my ability, so that you have the knowledge of both sides. 

Ginger used on the tail does not cause harm, it does not cause sores, it is not harsh. It creates a warmth that causes the horse to lift his tail on his own. It does not burn. It causes a warmth. 

Even on a braced horse, it will help keep the horse from fighting the brace, which can cause sores. 

Ginger the SPICE(that you use for cooking) is actually a calming agent, believe it or not, when put on the tongue or on the bit. Not many people know that, nor do they use it.


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## Magic

omg, we have a saddleseat horse at our barn. he is totally abused. its SO sad. the guy who owns him only ever takes him out of his stall with chains on his feet, or hobbles, and he drives him with a bearing rein (you know, the cruel thing that rich lady used in Black Beauty?) It's really awful, and his workouts are only for 15 mins. He also has his forelock shaved off and his tail is broken and put up in a tail set and he wears 3 inch tall/thick shoes and has minor ringbone issues.  

Its awful, bu thats just what some saddleseat people are about 

i dont know why the ppl at the barn dont just make him leave (i know the majority want too)


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## Magic

Cheval said:


> When I first looked at this topic, I thought it was going to be a huge mess. But, I was wrong!
> My opinion is that there a ton of crap in EVERY discipline - jumping, dressage, western, halter, saddleseat, trail, etc. when it comes down to showing (most of the time).
> Anyway, I hate the treatment of these animals. I don't think saddleseat has to _stop_ but there should make a law that only "people with a brain can own horses!" (Meaning that people wouldn't neglect, abuse, etc. them). Obviously, the "saddleseaters" on here have a brain, and realize that there is crap in that discipline however treat their horses nicely and with respect. The only thing that really drives me up the wall with saddleseat is the chains and shoes.
> But, this is coming from a person who doesn't have experience with Saddleseat, so please excuse/correct me if I'm wrong.


agreed


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## LadyDreamer

That was probably a TWH, magic. Never in my life have I ever seen a Saddlebred with three inches of shoe. There is a lot of abuse within the breed, which I do not know enough about to comment about. 

The abuse of Show TWHs does not, and should not condemn a completely different breed of horse or complete dicipline. 

As well, the bad acts of one(in case that is not a TWH), should never(though it often does) taint the acts of the rest of the whole group.

Magic, I am not going to pass judgement on the person at your barn, but if that is a show horse(didn't say whether he was or not, though if he wasn't there is no reason for any of what you say the guy does. Sounds like the horse is.), my main question is why isn't he at a show barn? There are lots of factors that could contribute to that, from none being in the area, to him being kicked out of one and word got around to the others. Don't know, and not going to ask or pry to find out. Just shooting out a couple possible scenarios. 

I am not going to reiterate on the tail sets, because it is all in past pages. 

The "bearing rein" you refer to is actually called an overcheck. If you remember, it was not cruel in "Black Beauty" until it was cranked higher and higher and higher, passed the limits the horse could stand. It is not used like that now. Yes it is to help a horse keep his head up, and help him set his head. Keep in mind, that most Saddlebreds, and a lot of show TWHs have a naturally high set head. Their necks, ideally for saddleseat and harness divisions, should be long, graceful, come up and have a nice arch, like a chess piece. I have one three week old filly now, who has a neck like a sea horse. If you scratch her, she will literally stick her head over the middle of her back. She is a neat little sister. Sadly it looks like she has a case of lordosis, which will limit her potential. 

If you watch a Fine Harness Class in any Saddlebred show, at the end of the class, you will see the "headers" come into the ring, and they will usually undo the overcheck when they are just standing in the lineup. I'll try to find a picture of the Fine Harness Saddlebred, Joe Friday. I am in love with him. 

Putting an overcheck on, say, a Quarter horse, or a horse with a naturally lower headset, and expect it to carry his head high would just be foolishness. Trying to crank thier heads up, or on upheaded horses higher than they physically can, can cause restriction of the airways, and they can choke down. I have seen that quite a bit in Hackney Ponies. One actually collapsed to his knees in a class, because he just couldn't breath. 

It all depends on the individual and their supposed good judgement. 

A bad reputation will follow you. There is LOTS of gossip in the Saddlebred world. Seeing bad practices and poor judgement, and out and out stupid choices can damage a trainer's reputation. "Did you hear? So and so's horse collapsed in the ring. I heard he was using this and this, and his customers are pulling thier horses from his barn." People are still talking about one of the Five Gaited Championship horses, who tried to attack his rider in the ring. It was crazy and makes you wonder why a professional trainer such as the one riding would let him get that way.


The "Hobbles" you saw, were more than likely "stretchies". It is a length of surgical tubing, connected to two, usually padded, leather bracelets around the fetlocks. These are strength training devices used to help a horse learn to "use his legs" (pick them up higher). It is up to the horse whether he uses them or not, just like with chains. Usually they are fitted to the horse. I know we have about four or five sets of stretchies depending on what a horse requires. 

They should never be worn for long periods of time, especially when they are first learning to wear them, as it can make thier shoulders sore. As with any training, you need to start slowly and build up. 

Strength training and endurance is imperative to a show horse. We want our horses to come out of the ring looking as well as when he went in. 

If you read here, this link will provide you all with many Whys to what you may see "wrong with the dicipline". http://www.american-saddlebred.com/protean/myths2.htm
If you need anything on here cleared up, I would be glad to help you. 

The trimming of the forelocks is not cruel. Personally, *I *hate it, because it looks dumb to me, and even worse trying to grow one back. 

Ask questions before passing judgements. Finding the right people to answer those questions is imperative as well. I am more than happy to tell all that you would like to know, and am pleased to know that there are many willing-to-learn minds on this forum as well.


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## Rachluvshorses4eva

Ahh yes. This reminds me of the poor Walking horses. There was a moving on The Tennesee Walking horses in horse protection I think. It's really sad and to me, the government does nothing about it.


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## LadyDreamer

IMO, the US Government should not be responsible for every little thing that goes wrong, partly because they are the reason behind a lot of the wrong in the country. But I'll save that discussion for the next political argument. The question should be "What is the Governing Body of the Tennessee Walking Horse Association doing to put an end to the issue?" The answer is LOTS. There are many things now that are being enacted and enforced at TWH shows to help put an end to the issue. 

However, the issue of soring and the discussion of the dicipline known as Saddleseat are two completely different topics. TWHs are just one breed of several that participate in the dicipline and the only one that comes to mind that knowingly inflicts pain on an animal to make it perform "better". Arabs don't, ASBs don't, National Show Horses don't, Morgans don't, just to name a few. So one out of five common breeds. 

This is not a debate on Soring(or rather a discussion, because I highly doubt there would be any argument saying soring is okay). It is a discussion on a dicipline not many know all that much about. And no, it is not a common occurence in the whole of the dicipline. 

If need be, another topic addressing the Soring Issue should be made.


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## FreedomRider

It all depends on the trainer and owners. There's always going to be something bad in any discepline.


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## irisheyes12

Kyani said:


> dressage has rollkur and 'see-sawing'; aqha halter has hypp, tiny feet and post-legs; jumping has people lifting poles to rap horses' legs; saddleseat has this crap.
> 
> You can't use some people's bad practice as reason to dump on the entire discipline. However horrific it may be, it's not everyone, and there's probably someone doing something equally horrific in the very sport you love.
> 
> But everyone else has already covered that.


HYPP is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare QH's that carry the HYPP gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.


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## irisheyes12

FreedomRider said:


> It all depends on the trainer and owners. There's always going to be something bad in any discepline.


I agree. I find dressage to be abusive and uncalled for but again, i'm a western rider and I do not enjoy the "sport" of Dressage. Same goes for Cross Country Jumping. To me, that's just asking for your horse to be fatally injured but to each his/her own.


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## Kyani

irisheyes12 said:


> hypp is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.


HYPP = deliberate breeding on a disease KNOWN to cause horrific pain and distress, perhaps even death, to an animal and it's future owners purely because it is believed the resulting hippo-horses will in more prizes (done by MANY top-end halter studs in the US, not just BYBs - money does not mean you can't be an asshat).

Soring = deliberately causing horrific pain and distress to an animal in order to create a 'pretty' effect and win more prizes.

Good comparison, I think.


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## irisheyes12

Kyani said:


> irisheyes12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hypp is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.
> 
> 
> 
> hypp = deliberate breeding on a disease KNOWN to cause horrific pain and distress, perhaps even death, to an animal and it's future owners purely because it is believed the resulting hippo-horses will in more prizes (done by MANY top-end halter studs in the US, not just BYBs - money does not mean you can't be an asshat).
> 
> Soring = deliberately causing horrific pain and distress to an animal in order to create a 'pretty' effect and win more prizes.
> 
> Good comparison, I think.
Click to expand...

Not at all, not even close. Many breeders (and yes, it is being irresponsible) don't test for HYPP and end up putting a baby on the ground that carries the HYPP gene without doing it deliberatively. HYPP horses are no better than non HYPP carriers and starting next year they won't be allowed to show in AQHA shows anyway.


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## kickshaw

> You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.


One tiny, eensy weensy little point: You cannot sore an ASB (yes, they wear developers (sretchies) and action chains (approx. weight = 5 oz.) ) - But, if you were to sore an ASB, they couldn't trot squarely or soundly. Period. 

Horses that have been sored are found in the racking/walking horse industry (aka - they don't trot). 

[ON SOAPBOX]
It is quite unfortunate that many people *only* associate the American Saddlebred with saddleseat riding. There are many breeds that have "saddle-type" horses. Arabs, Half Arabs, Morgans, Fresians, Hackneys, Dutch Harness Horses, Tennesee Walking Horses, Racking Horses, and Andalusians all are ridden saddleseat. (and I'm sure I've left a few out)

Saddleseat is simply a style...when performed as it should be is probably less intrusive to the horse than a heavy western saddle or a huntseat saddle with someone's lower leg always into the horse. 

The saddleseat style of riding was developed for horses who are built to carry their head UP...therefore the hands sit higher on a saddleseat horse than compared to a huntseat horse. If you look at pictures of saddleseat horses ridden correctly, there is actually a straight line from the horses mouth to the rider's hands. (riding with your hands down on one of these horses and you would be jarring the bars of his mouth)

*(note the straight line from the rider's hands to the horses' mouth - this is a half-arab)*









And in my very humble, honest opinion, a saddleseat horse who is strutting their stuff under saddle is absolutely no different than "Joe Schmoe the Quarter Horse" flagging himself on a windy fall day. 

Are there some practices in the discipline that outsiders dont (*or wont*) understand? Of course. Are there some breed specific practices that are questionable by all horse people? Sure. 

The Walking Horse industry has been and is being proactive about solving the problem with soring. Will they fully eliminate it? Probably not, but they are trying. 

What are the stock horse registries doing about punishing "trainers" who tie western pleasure horse's heads to cynder blocks while in the stall? (don't get me started on that one!) Or the western trainer who leaves a horse tied to a pole all day long to "teach him patience"? The 3 inch Cathedral bit that "trainer" puts on horse for his mostly incapable owner who has no clue how to use such a bit? Or the jumper "trainer" who raps horses legs with the poles? All of these are very well known, yet little talked about "training practices" in other disciplines...

Also in my very humble opinion, it is better to first educate yourself about things that you aren't clear on or are new to you before condemning the whole of the sport for the likes of a probable amateur who does not know the first thing about a true "saddleseat" (or western, or hunter) horse. 
[OFF SOAPBOX]

PS - I love my Saddlebred!


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## coolhorse

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. Before I joined saddleseat, I always thought it was cruel, too. However, once I started riding saddleseat, I realized the truth. The saddlebreds love going out and having their head high with their feet coming to their chest. My saddlebred loves going out into the arena and showing everyone what hes got. We do let our horses out if we trust them enough to not hurt themselves. The problem is, saddlebreds are very high strung so it's hard to let them out into a paddock while trusting they won't break a leg. We try to work our horses for the amount of time they can handle. The saddleseat discipline may take up more energy than jumping or dressage at times because they are going, going, going nonstop so they can't always handle the hour at a time lessons that jumpers have. Yes, sometimes we do put chains on our horses hooves but they are very light and are just there to help the horses feel where their hooves are so that they can place their hooves in the right places. The tail cutting is a painless surgery they have and it does nothing but remove some of the tail bone, actually making the tail more flexible. Other than that, the tail stays perfectly normal. The tail braces aren't any more torture to the horse than a bridle, saddle, or blanket would be. All of the things we do while riding them such as using whips or chains is just to bring out their natural talent. The first time I really realized saddleseat was not a cruel discipline was when one of our saddlebreds was released to graze and she trotted with her head higher and with more motion than she ever did with a rider on her. These horses love what they do and actually sometimes "compete" with other horses when in the paddock. They'll see who can be fancier. Before you judge a discipline, please look into it or try it instead of hurting other people's feelings. This is what we do and love. This is our hobby and is just as good as dressage, jumping, or western. We love our horses and want to treat them nicely just as much as you do. Believe me, saddlebreds are one of the most pampered breeds I know and they truly do love what they do.


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## tinyliny

I don't know if it matters, but this thread is 3 and a half years old. kind of crusty by now.


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## waresbear

Lets face it, and not take it out of context or compare to something else.....showing Saddlebred to the highest level is a cruel practise. There I said it.


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## LadyDreamer

I agree with tinyliny. Lets not dig up threads from three years ago.

Lets face it waresbare. Showing top level saddebreds is not cruel. 

I have the experience in training and showing these magnificent horses to back up my side of this argument. Do you?


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## bubba13

I only have experience with one trainer, and the horses were mostly Arabians and National Show Horses. It was saddleseat, though, along with country English pleasure (I'm not too keen on the difference, to be honest, so if someone wants to enlighten me, feel free). This particular trainer is a BIG name in this particular show world, with top dollar horses and numerous national championships and accolades, and a barn full to the brim with training horses. I know that one bad egg should not necessarily spoil the whole sport, but the practices there are reprehensible, and have soured me to saddleseat and related disciplines. My farrier just told me this past week that he knows of not one but two horses that this trainer has blinded in the roundpen, hitting them in the face/eye with the whip. The headsetting devices they use are barbaric, the horses never get turnout, and the worst part to me is the shoeing. My farrier quite shoeing for them because he refuses to lame horses. I've seen them throw a shoe and half of their hoof wall with it. I've seen radiographs of joints so twisted and gnarled it's a wonder the horse can stand, but they shoe them so they look straight. Their feet are an absolute mess, with insanely long toes and a heel that ends halfway beneath the foot is soo underrun. They're always lame, and are always getting treated by the vet just enough to keep them going for the next show. The trainer and barn help keep the horses so jacked up for the show ring, too, that they haved to be drugged with a xylazine cocktail just to do anything with them. But they win and bring in the mega bucks. And the barn was filthy, the stalls were small, and in the summer it is unbelieveably hot, with no ventilation or fan system. The horses are always soaked with swat standing in their stalls.

And come to think of it, I just recalled that I did have a little experience with a national champion Saddlebred saddleseat trainer. He was even worse, if possible. I saw him fly off the handle and deliver a sound beating to a horse whose offense was....stopping to pee in the barn aisle.

So that's my experience.


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## waresbear

What I seen described in your posts LadyDreamer seems cruel to me. But there are way worse things going on out there and the horses are being cared for and fed so maybe I should rephrase cruel. I can't think of a word, doesn't matter anyways. Things we do to animals to exhibit them I suppose are cruel, some moreso than others. What I think is more cruel is not using a horse, sticking it out in a pasture, then eventually it being sent off to slaughter as it has no use. I'd rather see it's tail nicked & ginger up it's butt in a showring.


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## LadyDreamer

Oh I can throw out a long list of PEOPLE who are hideous creatures that deserve the worst torture for what they have done to horses. The names on my list do span all breeds, but are mostly from my breed, simply because they are what I know more.The concentration of them is higher to me so naturally I'd know more. From what I have seen, those people are cruel in nature. They are cruel and mean in usually all aspects of their lives. It would not matter their occupation. It is a shame they chose my breed. They could have chosen anything.

My list of high quality GOOD people and trainers at the highest level is much longer than the list of bad. Again, because of the number of people I know and the number of barns I have been in and the number of horses I have seen and worked, I have been able to see the good and know that it is not just in a handful of barns.

I am not one to condemn something because of a few bad experiences.


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## bubba13

The associations should not reward these people. 

I'm sure their are ways to achive quality saddleseat results without abuse. That does not change a few points, however. First, any kind of surgical intervention on a horse for aesthetics or show is wrong, particularly one that interferes with its natural stance and movement. Second, all horses deserve time to be....horses. Any discipline that does not allow them adequate socialization and turnout time is frankly inhumane. And third, if you are shoeing a horse for a certain kind of movement, and leaving a long toe, underrun heel, or even moderately weighted shoe--you are not working in the horse's best interest. No getting around that.


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## LadyDreamer

Think what you will about the cosmetic alteration of the tail. I will not say you are wrong for being against it. Cruel? Not when done properly. Again, same with ear cropping and tail docking of dogs. It is completely cosmetic and if done and not taken care of, it can be devastatingly cruel. I am taking care of five youngsters in sets being prepared for the surgery. It is tedious and obnoxious and I wish unaltered tails were popular enough to matter in the ring. It is legal, but image counts for quite a bit.

As for weights and shoeing.... please refer to previous posts. If I can add a bit of weight to one side to change the direction the foot travels to keep my horse from hitting his opposite knee I'd be happy too. It is generally accepted that less is more when it comes to shoeing, believe it or not. 

Shoeing is an art. The good farriers are coveted, the bad ones(Hey I know some of each too!) eventually shape up or move from barn to barn as the gain and lose business. 

Sometimes the quality of the foot is not the fault of the farrier. Nutrition plays a vital role in the stability and soundness of the hoof wall. If you are losing the foot with the shoe, you need to carefully examine every aspect of the horses life. From food to farrier. 

As for the Association taking care of the abusers... it is not the responsibility to babysit and make sure every horse in its registry is turned out and cuddled and spoken softly to. They have much more important things to worry about. When a problem is brought publicly to their attention, heavy fines, regulation of that individual, and potential banning from rated shows are possibilities. All of which has happened within the last few years. 

Without an army of inspectors asking to regulate every action within a private barn is ridiculous, especially if doing so was through the parent brreed Association. What a great way to gt memberships pulled which are the life of the organization. And then where would they be, this army of inspectors with no barns to go to. 

If they aren't caught on the show grounds, then what? Allow the judges to make a moral call on placing or not placing a horse because of a rider? That is called politics and often leads to several very bad things for everyone involved, except the abuser. What happens to him is he doesn't get a shiny blue prize.

Blatant politicing will potentially hurt a shows future attendance and also the reputation of the judge, who very likely is one of the top active trainers in the industry. Gossip and hearsay does a lot of harm in this small industry where everyone knows each other or has heard of everyone else. 

The best way to stop the abusers who beat their horses, don't promote the mental well being for the horse as well as the physical, who are rough and cruel in nature and in practice is on a trainer client level. If you have horses in training, it is your responsibility to know how your horse is being worked with. If it is not to your standards, find another trainer who does. If the owners keep putting money in their pockets and good high quality horses in their hands, then the trainer has no real reason to adapt and change. Many times a cruel in nature trainer wins because he has the better horse. 

Being involved in the industry, by owning, showing, breeding, training, promoting and so on is the only way you will see or hear about the punishments that befall the bad. Oh boy, gossip can be fun sometimes. 

Being actively involved in the breed on any level and participating is the best way to help an issue too. The Convention is coming up. Would any of you like to come in and express your concerns to the Association, BOD, registry, dignitaries, trainers, owners and general members? I can get you the date and location and agenda.


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## bubba13

I sincerely doubt they would take the complaints of someone outside the association seriously. But I think, too, that I have an ethical (or more likely legal) obligation to keep my mouth shut when it comes to naming names, as most of the mistreatment I saw occurred while I was working for the veterinarian attending to the horses. There was a whole lot going on behind the scenes that clients would likely never see or even suspect. 

Can you post some photos of your show horses' shod feet?


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## Faceman

You keep repeating the same thing over and over. I believe just about everyone knows about the issues you mention.

As everyone has said, and it is true, all disciplines have thier use vs. abuse issues. The answer is not to condemn the discipline, but rather to condemn and eliminate the negative aspects. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water...


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## waresbear

I will state from 40 years of experience with horses and being around horse shows & competitions - you want to be the best of the best? You are going to have to do things to that horse/horses that are against the manufacturer's specs. Is this cruel? To the horse, yes, to a certain degree. Reason why I never wanted to show western pleasure at the World's, I couldn't do what I needed to do to a horse in order to stand a chance. I do not condemn others if they can, as stated, there are way worse cruelty issues.


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## ponyboy

Sometimes it's not the people after all, it's the system. All disciplines in which a horse is judged solely on its gaits and appearance are bound to become twisted to the point that they are not good for the horse. That's because there's only so much a trainer can do to improve the way a horse looks or moves naturally. To really stand out from the crowd, they have to go to extreme lengths. Suddenly it's not enough that a horse is carrying its head lower than usual (as in WP), they have to be practically dragging it on the ground if they want to win. Over time, the modifications to natural movement needed to win increase to the point where they cannot be achieved by natural means. Judging a horse based on its appearance simply leaves too much room for things to go off the rails.

All disciplines are not created equal. There's showing (judging based on appearance) and then there are actual sports, where the horse must learn a skill that is relatively easy to measure. Did the horse clear the fence or not? Was it the first to finish or not? Did it change its lead or not? Disciplines in which the winners are chosen based on substantive elements are much less prone to problems.


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## drop_your_reins

thepie24 said:


> I don't mean to offend, but how can the discipline of Saddleseat be accepted as a legitimate equestrian sport? The horses, mostly Saddlebreds, are locked their stalls most of the time, ridden for 15-20 minutes a day and shod in ridiculous shoes. They have no to time to just be horses, and in the less reputable barns have ginger put in their rectums, chains around their ankles, their tails "nicked"(the nerves cut so that they can hold the tail unnaturally high) and put in tail sets which look suspiciously like torture devices, and sharp bits put in their mouths, all to enhance their "natural" gaits. Natural saddlebreds are sweet, intelligent, beautiful horses who have been enslaved by their riders. In my personal experience, I came across a saddlebred so destroyed by Saddleseat that he was unrideable, sore and his spirit broken. Rumors came in with his owners that firecrackers had been thrown at him to excite him to perform his gaits more extravagantly. People compare it to show jumping and dressage, saying they also use harsh bits and force horses to do things, which may be true, but the real issue is how an entire breed is being exploited, treated as though they are just gaits, not living breathing animals who need to be respected and allowed to act as their instincts dictate, not left in a stall for hours on end wearing a tail set to force them to carry their tail high and shoes that make them snap their feet up. How can the equestrian community ignore this obviously inhumane discipline?


People like you ^ really grind my gears. :twisted:
You don't mean to offend? 99% of the people who start a sentence with "No Offense, But" are really just trying to defend themselves from the backlash they know they will receive from saying something ignorant. 

Saddleseat is a legitimate equestrian sport, I have never shown in it but I have taken lessons. I ride Morgans, so I'm sure there are some differences in training techniques.. but, I must say that I have never seen a horse with a tail set (I do not personally agree with them either) nor have I ever seen a horse being "sored" nor would I EVER CONDONE it. 

Our horses are only in when they have shoes on, they get handgrazed for a couple hours or turned out in SMALL paddocks within sight distance of the barn (so they cannot pull shoes) for a few hours. The main reason to keep them in, is so they don't pull shoes. Open your eyes, "thepie" there are plenty of other disciplines which practice 24/7 turn-in. Do you think Olympic caliber horses are turned out all day? So they can bow a tendon running in the field? Our horses get regular turnout when not in competition training (so from October to Aprilish) and if they are not competing, they do not wear "ridiculous" shoes and get regular turnout all year long. They are actually probably some of the most spoiled horses in the whole equine industry.. 
They also get more than 15-20 minutes of exercise.. usually anywhere between 45mins to an hour.. sometimes a tad more. They may only get 10-15 minutes with the "hideous devices" on their feet, but anymore than that and I might agree with you- it is abusive. 

Sharp Bits? I'm assuming you've never ridden in a double bridle. They are also in dressage. (A big shock, I know) Yes, the curbs are longer and the bradoons a bit smaller.. but the horses are most often schooled in a plain snaffle with a running martingale (and work fine in it). Have you ever heard of the phrase.. "A bit is only as harsh as the hands who hold it"? Most of the horses I have ridden (that competed in Saddleseat) have the lightest mouths of any horses I've ridden- including your typical H/Js/TBs/QHs that like to dive onto the forehand and annihilate rider's hands to avoid real work. 

I'm sorry about your "personal experience" but I can tell you plenty of my own "personal" experiences with Hunter/Jumper barns, Thoroughbreds, QHs, all run down by INDIVIDUALS (who I understand don't make up the breed or sport as a WHOLE). 

Rumors.. are just that. 

These horses are not forced to "snap their feet" up. If you took your time to educate yourself on the breed (youtube), you would find plenty of videos of mares and foals (with no shoes on... BIG SHOCKER, I know!) TURNED OUT IN PASTURES (omg! they must have devilish owners) "snapping their feet up" just the same. 

The training methods are used to keep the horses in shape.. so they don't injure themselves at shows, so they are used to the weight of the shoes.. 

I cannot speak for the saddlebred industry, but I'm 90% certain that the MAJORITY of the breed enthusiasts (including saddleseat riders and trainers) care very much for their animals and would do nothing to hurt them, and are probably more spoiled than your horse. 

Keep your rash generalizations to yourself and maybe you won't offend anyone. Next time, instead of blaming the breed/sport enthusiasts- try blaming that individual for ABUSE (if it even occurred). It happens in all disciplines. Saddleseat gets a bad rep from people like you who find that ONE horse who fell into a bunch of wrong hands, and the rumor mill starts up, and the ignorance spreads. 

Sincerely,
thoroughly offended.


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## drop_your_reins

Just realized this thread was 3 years old.. but all the same, I'm offended. LOL


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## paint23

thepie24 said:


> i acknowledge that all disciplines have their issues, but most of these are the result of bad riding, ignorance, or incompetence. a large number of saddleseat riders voluntarily make their horses uncomfortable on a regular basis for appearance, and its not just one or two things, its the horses' entire lifestyle. my saddlebred still won't take a bit, even a soft snaffle, without resistance because of the bicycle chain bits used on him when he was young. I'm not trying to offend, but there is no defending some of the things they do to their horses, they're beyond reason. if i **** off someone who puts a tail set on their horse, then so be it. what i have seen in the past seven years makes me sick, and I live near Wellington Florida, an area with a very high concentration professional barns and riders of all kinds


 Tennesee walking horses also go through similar torture, but in the larger shows where this goes on they have what they call "the government" the show horses have to pass an inspection before they can be shown. If they find that a horse has been sored up or anything like that they fine the owner and trainer and they also get banned for a certain ammount of time. I have a tennesse walker that i show in pleasure classes and ride on trails, i have never done anything to make him sore so he will step higher, but some trainers put halved golf balls under the horses thick pads on their feet and they also strap chains on their feet. I have never seen a horse that could naturally do what padded walking horses do, its not possible.


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## GotaDunQH

waresbear said:


> I will state from 40 years of experience with horses and being around horse shows & competitions - you want to be the best of the best? You are going to have to do things to that horse/horses that are against the manufacturer's specs. Is this cruel? To the horse, yes, to a certain degree. *Reason why I never wanted to show western pleasure at the World's, I couldn't do what I needed to do to a horse in order to stand a chance. *I do not condemn others if they can, as stated, there are way worse cruelty issues.


Huh??? Showing at the top doesn't mean the horse needs to be abused. I'm a little offended by this....as it's a generalization that lumps everyone in together. My horse is an AQHA World Show Qualifier in WP and he certainly was not abused or tortured to get that status. It comes down to the quality of the animal; horse power. If the horse is a mediocre mover, no training in the world either good or bad is going to make it World Show competitive.


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## mystykat

Yes, why don't we go ahead and ban all equestrian activities? :roll: Because honestly, as said repeatedly before and by many - there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship, in EVERY SINGLE equestrian sport. And I think it's about time everyone got over that.


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## ponyboy

Good and bad relative to others in the sport, you mean. That doesn't count for much.


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## waresbear

Abused I suppose in the opinion of the abuser? Whatever, these animals are not being used to manufacturers specs, period! This is why it's rare to see aged champions unless they were retired early & put out to the breeding shed. They don't have long careers in said disciplines.


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## SorrelHorse

Didn't read all the posts so forgive me.

to the OP -

I'm sorry you seem to think all this cruelty is present in every single saddle seat barn. But perhaps you should expand your view.

If I listened to all the people I know about dressage, I would think all of them had metal poles placed in their spine to keep the in a "rollkur" position and that all barrel racers bloodied their horses sides and rode with bicycle chains in their horses mouths.

Are there people in the saddle seat discipline who have done the things you have listed? Yes. Do the majority of them do it? No.

I'll tell you right now, you walk into any barn breeding saddlebreds in my area and you will find these horse being treated better than the barn owner's children.


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## waresbear

Abuse and misuse maybe it's just the symantics. Of course these owners care for their horses and yes, the animals are treated prolly better than most treat their children. In a way, it reminds me of the show called "Toddler & Tiaras".


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## bubba13

A Saddlebred this girl is not: Meet Alana, The Most Spectacular Toddlers & Tiaras Contestant Ever | Best Week Ever


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## waresbear

Ok, ok. But you know what I am saying right? It can be considered abuse or misuse putting horses in jacked up shoes, shortening up their strides so much they have humped up backs, etc...we are not using these animals as nature intended. By the way, I don't think it's wrong per se, the horse has a job. And if I have to hump my butt to work every dang day to feed this animal and sometimes when I am in pain, he can give it up for me too. Such is life. The abuse that concerns me is unfed animals, uncared for animals (overgrown hooves), neglected animals etc. Certain training, conditioning procedures are extreme at times but at least someone is enjoying the horse & taking care of it and giving it attention. Worse lots in life.


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## bubba13

No, I'm right there with you, though I'd really say that any kind of riding or confinement is now how nature intended horses to live. Where you draw the line is an individual decison. For me, it's any kind of thing that interferes with the life of a horse outside the time it's being ridden. Horses MUST have turnout, socialization, and freedom to move unrestricted. Altering their gate with special pads, shoes, and leave-on devices invariably leads to soundness issues. Performing surgery on a horse for aesthetics leaves it cooped up and in-pain, at least for a while, but the nerve-deadening of Western horse tails is even worse, as it eliminates a horse's ability to convey emotion and swat off insects. Those tail-set harnesses that TWH's wear are awful, though the people who use them will defend them as perfectly humane 'til their dying breath. Tying a horse's head up for hours is reprehensible. Etc.


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## waresbear

But a lot of times it's the things you have to do in order to be the best of the best. Certainly not the only things, but if these are traits & results that judges reward, it's gonna keep being practiced.


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## westerncowgurl

waresbear said:


> But a lot of times it's the things you have to do in order to be the best of the best. Certainly not the only things, but if these are traits & results that judges reward, it's gonna keep being practiced.


nobody ever said u had to abuse your horse to be the best, i know people who have been to big shows and they would never abuse their horses.


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## SorrelHorse

I don't see the "abuse" factor for the best here....

Jester has been to the APHA World Show with nothing but a bath and a flashy little halter. I've won a couple buckles myself on horses who are probably the happiest horses alive, I teach them their job and they are a horse the rest of the time. None of my previous reiners were ever abused, nor are any of my barrel horses now.


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## bubba13

And do your barrel horses ever end up with lameness problems from the sport (or, rather, will they eventually get far more athritic than if they hadn't raced)? Almost certainly--it's practically a given. Do you ever have to "make a point" by occasionally snatching the reins, gobbing with spurs, or just plain wielding a whip? Do you think your horse enjoys these things?

And, too, there's a very real difference between an objective speed event like barrels and a subjective judged event where an unnatural carriage and movement is favored.


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## SorrelHorse

Thank you Bubba for pointing out what we already know, but thats not my point. I don't really see the point of this argument right now, because we can say it all we want but we will all be hypocrites because we all do it despite the fact that we know the horse doesn't "enjoy it", as you said.


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## SEAmom

waresbear said:


> Abused I suppose in the opinion of the abuser? Whatever, these animals are not being used to manufacturers specs, period! This is why it's rare to see aged champions unless they were retired early & put out to the breeding shed. They don't have long careers in said disciplines.



I beg to differ. My best friend's 23 year old NSH took Top 5 in Regionals and Top 5 in Nationals at the AHA Nationals as a 20 year old in Country Pleasure (saddleseat). I've seen a lot of 15+ Arabs and Half-Arabs take Top 5, Top 10, and, yes, Reserve and Champion placings at regional and national events.

I sure hope you let your horses roam on hundreds of acres of land untouched like nature intended. Otherwise you, too, are not using your horses "to manufacturers specs". Thus, making you a hypocrite.


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## boots

I hear complaints about the built up shoes and laugh, thinking, "Do these people ever wear high heels?" High heeled foot wear just makes you walk a little "fancier." 

My horse background is primarily ranching, racing, and polo, but I did get the opportunity of riding 3- and 5-gaited horses while working a contract in So. Carolina. What a treat! 

The training encourages specific muscling that results in their desired gaits. The same as a TBs training (hopefully) results in speed, and a cutting horse's training results in their moves. 

In addition to lessons (and my daughter showed) we got to take some of the horses at the barn in So. Carolina out on little trail rides just to give them a change of pace (although the horses got paddock time daily). Delightful horses. Great manners. Very easy to work with.

I'll admit, I used to think the smiles on the faces of show competitors had to be phoney. But, after riding Saddlebreds I found it was almost impossible NOT to smile. Very fun to ride.

As a therapist I can see that when I prescribe specific exercises, with weights and bands, I'm doing the same thing as horse trainers. Targeting specific muscles to get a desired movement.


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## bubba13

boots said:


> I hear complaints about the built up shoes and laugh, thinking, "Do these people ever wear high heels?" High heeled foot wear just makes you walk a little "fancier."


Really? _Nothing could be further from the truth._

Killer Heels: The Dangers of High-Heel Shoes - Softpedia
High heel horrors! The hidden cost to your body of those crucial extra inches | Mail Online

This is a very real phenomenon, by the way. High heels wreak havoc on the bodies of women....and horses. Otherwise it wouldn't matter what kind of hack-job farrier you used, would it? Because the angle of a horse's feet doesn't matter, and certainly doesn't affect soundness. And there'd be no market for comfortable human shoes.


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## boots

bubba13 said:


> Really? _Nothing could be further from the truth._
> 
> Killer Heels: The Dangers of High-Heel Shoes - Softpedia
> High heel horrors! The hidden cost to your body of those crucial extra inches | Mail Online
> 
> This is a very real phenomenon, by the way. High heels wreak havoc on the bodies of women....and horses. Otherwise it wouldn't matter what kind of hack-job farrier you used, would it? Because the angle of a horse's feet doesn't matter, and certainly doesn't affect soundness. And there'd be no market for comfortable human shoes.


Methinks the sites you cite overstate things a bit. 

Personally, I liked the Saddlebreds that were "natural-shod" (how's that for an oxymoron?) just as well as the built up. But, in choosing my battles for horse welfare, the shoeing and training of Saddlebreds doesn't make my list.


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## bubba13

boots said:


> Methinks the sites you cite overstate things a bit.


And you have proven scientific evidence to the contrary? Please provide it. Mine were just the first two sites that popped up on Google, but you can find peer-reiviewed journal articles substantiating the claims, as well.

Knee osteoarthritis and high-heeled shoes : The Lancet
Biomechanical effects of wearing high-heeled shoes 10.1016/S0169-8141(01)00038-5 : International Journal of Industrial Ergonomics | ScienceDirect.com
Lower extremity mechanics and ener... [J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI
Postural Alignment in Barefoot and High-Heeled Stance : Spine
The effects of wearing high heeled shoes on pedal... [Foot Ankle. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI

The evidence of problems with incorrect shoeing in horses is even better understood. Ask any vet or farrier.










This is _not_ healthy. You're just asking for navicular / caudal heel pain and hyperextension injuries in the soft tissue flexors. A weighted shoe causes problems with the joints, too, and greatly exaggerates any pre-existing problems with movement, such as paddling, further stressing the knee.

Now let's look at some TWH shoes.























































Totally harmless....right?


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## MangoRoX87

My mon is 53 and has been wearing 6 inch heels since she was 18. She seems to walk just fine. In fact, her legs have stayed in great shape...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear

Mango, your mom is the exception, not the rule. I occassionally will wear stilletos, which 6" heels are, if I were to make them my regular footwear I highly doubt I could kickbox and crack people's heads open.


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## MangoRoX87

But, then again. She doesn't have 5 gates. She walks, and she runs. :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Your mom ever have migraines or back pain or shoulder pain, Mango? And does she wear the shoes daily, and do a lot of walking in them? Do you know why women's high heeled shoes are so prevalent (hint: it puts her in a vulnurable posture while exaggerating desirable/sexual curves, namely the buttocks and breasts)? Ever tried to run in heels?


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## MangoRoX87

She tore her shoulder joint thing once After crashing my dirt bike, so sometimes it hurts her. Her head hurts on occasion from her braces. Really her only health issue is an irregular heart beat. She used to at her last job, when she was a traveling rep for blackberry phones and went to different stores all day.
Heck...I think her shoes are pretty dang cute!
I have no problem running in them on a hard surface, I've broken a pair running in grass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MangoRoX87

I sure look like a dweeb though. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse

I feel as if posting some of the worst pictures of the TWH shoeing _is _overdramatizing, Bubba.


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## bubba13

Replying to boots' comment that shoes do not affect soundness.


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## Gremmy

High heels don't cause damage? Tell that to my grandmother, she's had to have multiple surgeries on her feet because she always insisted on wearing heels.

I have nothing against saddleseat but there are extremes in every discipline. I'm on the same page as Bubba when it comes to the exaggerated forms of shoeing.


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## SEAmom

Please remember the the TWH world is *not* the saddleseat world. While they may look similar, they aren't the same thing. Stacks don't appear in saddleseat. Soring isn't in saddleseat. If you've ever seen a liberty video of a park horse, you'll know their movement is honestly come by.


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## boots

bubba13 said:


> Replying to boots' comment that shoes do not affect soundness.


I never said "shoes do not affect soundness." I don't think the mainstream shoeing and training practices of the Saddlebred saddle seat disclipline are horrid.



> High heels don't cause damage? Tell that to my grandmother, she's had to have multiple surgeries on her feet because she always insisted on wearing heels.Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1318649#ixzz1k6OzRcgP[/QUOTE]
> 
> They don't bother everyone. And, back to horses: If a horse cannot tolerate the practices of a discipline, they are generally not used for that purpose.


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## Faceman

boots said:


> ...And, back to horses: If a horse cannot tolerate the practices of a discipline, they are generally not used for that purpose.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but what a horse can or cannot physically tolerate should not be a determining factor. I can beat the heck out of my horse with a 2 X 4, kick him, punch him in the face, or slap him upside the head repeatedly without causing him physical damage, but that doesn't justify doing it. That is not to say folks in that discipline are all abusive - I'm just addressing your statement...what a horse can tolerate physically should not be the measure of how the horse is used...or abused...


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## drop_your_reins

I have never heard of soundness issues, particularly navicular, in Morgans or Arabs who show Saddleseat consistently. Let me ask those of you who are so critical of the shoeing practices, have you ever been to a saddlebred, Arabian or Morgan farm that is mainstream and popular within the breed? They have a lot of money to lose if people gave them a reputation as abusive, or selling unsound horses, or selling horses that will break down over time. Like most competition horses, Saddleseat horses often find a second career after their prime has passed.. Lesson horse, or in another discipline, or as a little girls first horse.. 

I would really like to understand where people are getting this information that these horses break down, have soundness issues, and are abused. It is clearly not first hand or because of the exception and not the rule. I see more ex racers and ex H/Js with navicular and broken down as a result of strenuous work. I have never ever seen a Morgan with navicular and the day I do, I doubt it will have ever competed Saddleseat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

drop_your_reins said:


> I have never heard of soundness issues, particularly navicular, in Morgans or Arabs who show Saddleseat consistently. Let me ask those of you who are so critical of the shoeing practices, have you ever been to a saddlebred, Arabian or Morgan farm that is mainstream and popular within the breed?


Yes. See my post above (http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/saddleseat-how-has-not-been-outlawed-8206/#post1312111). Multiple National Champion Arabian and NSH barn, excellent reputation, mega bucks, made the cover of the AHA Journal, clients from all over the country, stand some of the best saddleseat Arabian stallions. Reprehensible practices, crippled horses, rampant abuse.










^ This horse, for example, is a National Champion, valued at, if I had to guess, $100,000. You should see his radiographs. You should see his feet. If you've ever seen the film adaptation of the Michael Crichton novel _Timeline_ (good movie, by the way), picture how the X-rays of those people look. Fragmented joints that don't line up. But they shoe him so that his legs look straight, meaning his shoes are crooked and built up on one side. Very sore, too, but they kept him injected to get him through. (Oh, and he is for sale now, too!)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I think Denial is more than a river in Egypt. I said years ago that if anyone in the Arabian industry thinks we're not soring our horses and doing everything they're looking at the TWH world for, they're crazy. I know how brutal halter training can be and abhor it. I see the stacks getting bigger and bigger on our Saddleseat horses and see more and more hose clamps on those shoeing packages to make sure they stay on. I see the ankle chains, the bungees, the draw reins and over checks and know that ginger up the heiney in halter is rampant, why not mustard on the fetlocks? It's a very very tiny step. The half golf ball thing under the stacks is something I've also heard of and nails in the pads......I don't ride saddleseat and don't ride in a barn that does so no, I have not seen it first hand. BUT, I have watched as trainers put ginger paste on a toothbrush or capsacin on a rag, and swab it inside a rectum or vulva....so do I believe it's not happening? NOT FOR A MINUTE.


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## drop_your_reins

I am not in denial over anything. I know that I have ambitions to bring my mare to some Morgan regionals to show in Saddleseat. I know that I would never use any of those practices (ginger, soring, tail setting, etc.) on her. Do we use an overcheck? yes. Do we use draw reins? yes. Have I used weighted bell boots? yes. Have I used chains on her ankles? sure. Have I used surgical tubing? yes. Would I shoe her up? If we had sent entries in and were prepared for a show, yes I would. Does any of this hurt her? no. Is any of it abusive? no. Would she have any longterm (even short term) health effects because of the way I ride her, treat her, shoe her, train her? No. 

I have used some of the same training methods on my gelding, who is not inclined to "be fancy" at all, and he did not respond to them, did not care. I wanted to see if there was any "force" to the training, and there really isn't. If the horses do not want to respond to the chains, they won't. If they physically can't, they won't. If they're not interested, they won't. Which is probably where soring comes into the picture, in the first place. Not everyone does it. 
I have ridden a mare who was Park horse potential (never shod, and still could trot as high as a park horse) but didn't know what she wanted to do with her life. (One day she wanted to be a western horse, one day she wanted to be a jumper, the next a saddleseat horse) If she was not in the mood to be responsive, she wouldn't respond. So we'd do a saddle and bridle switch and work on some dressage or jump some fences. 

I'm sorry that there are people out there who abuse their horses and some of those people happen to be of a saddleseat background, but the sport as a whole is not harmful to the horse. If the owners and trainers truly care about their horses (the majority do), then the horses have long healthy lives to look forward to. Period. 

@Bubba13 ... Names, proof? I'm sure you are correct and that is a terrible story, but it's just one. It shouldn't represent the breed and trainers as a whole. And maybe it was my mistake for including Arabs, since I admit I don't know a ton about them.. I doubt that would happen in the Morgan circuit (of which I am primarily defending). I would never use corrective shoeing on a horse in addition to padding them up for saddleseat, especially if the horse can't handle it. 

If we want to start discipline bashing, I can bring up a ton of horror stories in the racing industry, working western (QHs), Hunter/Jumper circuit, Dressage, etc. Everyone seems to think that the EXTREMISTS in a given discipline represent the discipline as a whole.


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## bubba13

drop_your_reins said:


> @Bubba13 ... Names, proof? I'm sure you are correct and that is a terrible story, but it's just one. It shouldn't represent the breed and trainers as a whole. And maybe it was my mistake for including Arabs, since I admit I don't know a ton about them.. I doubt that would happen in the Morgan circuit (of which I am primarily defending). I would never use corrective shoeing on a horse in addition to padding them up for saddleseat, especially if the horse can't handle it.


I won't provide names because I really don't want a libel lawsuit on my hands, nor do I want to jeopardize my future career. I tried to out a well-known hauling company once for hideous abuse I witnessed, and was rewarded with a threatening phone call from the owner after I sent in a report to the Better Business Bureau. People are nasty, and will do horrible things to protect their reputation. Proof....well, not sure how to provide that, either. Wish I had copies of the radiographs or pictures of the feet.

Hang on....Internet's acting up. More to come....


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## natisha

LadyDreamer said:


> I would be MORE than happy to help answer anyone's questions they have on the issue. I want nothing more than for myths to be dispelled or miscommunications to be sorted out.


The professionals that you mentioned regarding tail cutting, what is their profession? Here in SE WI, (lots of ASB farms), vets will not do the cutting, it's done by 'someone' else, either the trainer or someone the trainer knows.


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## bubba13

It is really, really hard to find photos of their feet, but I found three from the barn in question. The first one is their big-name stallion. I'm no farrier, but I've discussed this extensively with my farrier (who used to shoe for them) and with other farriers online, and yes, this creates huge lameness problems down the road--and frequently in the current day. There's a reason that horses' feet don't naturally look like this: it's not conducive to soundness. Ever heard of "long toe, low heel" syndrome, and the problems it causes? Yeah. I have personal experience with that in my horses after an experience with a very bad backyard farrier. One constantly tripped very badly but recovered once his hooves were fixed, one developed navicular and never regained soundess, and one suffered multiple tears to the deep digital flexor tendon under the coffin bone. And weighted shoes, as I've said before, multiply the effects of improper movement and are tough on joints. When you need to bolt metal bands across the top of the hoof to make the shoe stay on, you know something is wrong.



drop_your_reins said:


> If we want to start discipline bashing, I can bring up a ton of horror stories in the racing industry, working western (QHs), Hunter/Jumper circuit, Dressage, etc.


Absolutely. Lord knows the horror stories I could tell about Western Pleasure barns, halter, barrel racing, and roping. But I'd argue that most everyone is so accustomed and numb to the problems in their own discipline that they fail that they fail to see what others perceive as abuse. They see it as normal, necessary, right. Not so. If you stop thinking about it from the perspective of winning in the show ring, and consider the best interest of the horse and its welfare only, you'll see that many of the things we take for granted in our own sports are honest-to-god detrimental to the horse's physical and mental wellbeing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

drop_your_reins said:


> I am not in denial over anything. I know that I have ambitions to bring my mare to some Morgan regionals to show in Saddleseat.......
> 
> I'm sorry that there are people out there who abuse their horses and some of those people happen to be of a saddleseat background, but the sport as a whole is not harmful to the horse.
> 
> If we want to start discipline bashing, I can bring up a ton of horror stories in the racing industry, working western (QHs), Hunter/Jumper circuit, Dressage, etc. Everyone seems to think that the EXTREMISTS in a given discipline represent the discipline as a whole.


First, please note I never said a word about Morgans. Don't know a thing about them, I'm strictly into the Arabian and Arabian X thing, don't know nor care what another breed does in their own venues. I'm just commenting that people in the Arabian industry are trying to deny that abuses exist. I'm going to say that from what I've witnessed JUST in the halter barns gives the lie to saying abuse in the performance barns doesn't exist. And not just in saddleseat.

I am not discipline bashing at all. In fact, I'll give you lick for lick with what I've seen in halter training barns, look at the ridiculous padding up they do for main ring hunter pleasure and tell me you could chase a fox with your horse shod like that......not friggin' likely. Heck, they're even padding up Western Pleasure horses because they need to move rounder.....slower.......and deadening the WP horses tails.....oh yes....it's happened in the Arabian rings. I've seen horses with their heads tied up and pvc pipes or wood blocks wired in their mouths before a WP class.....tell me the therapeutic purpose behind that, will someone? And bring the London Bridge along with you because I'm a pretty hard sell. 

After 40 years in the business, I have a pretty darned good idea what goes on in the back barns behind the curtains. I stick around because I love to show and I love my horses and when we're on, we show them that you CAN do au natural, no pads, no drugs, no ties, no ginger. You may not have the chemical, enhanced version of the Stepford Horse but you can be pretty darn good.


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## GotaDunQH

My thoughts are....there are two kinds of horse show people:

1. People with the "win at all costs" attitude
2. People WITHOUT the 'win at all costs" attitude

No discipline is immune from unsavory methods, and no breed is immune to unsavory methods, and the whole other side of the horse industry that DOES not show is not immune to unsavory methods. It comes down to which person YOU want to be....a number 1 or a number 2. 

I show AQHA on a very competitive regional circuit with a competitive horse, but I have chosen to be a number 2 because I think of my horse's welfare first. And choosing to be a number 2 has not hurt my placings any; with a Top 5 and two Top 10's at our AQHA regional championship show. You don't have to succumb to the pressure of the "win at all cost" people to be just as competitive as them.


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## TheNuturalEquine

Saddleseat is the sport i enjoy the least. I have judged saddleseat in horse judging contests for years now, and I get so stressed about the poor animals involved. The horses show obvious signs of discomfort, and the bits are just ridiculous, double bridles... really people?! The normal saddleseat horse has drool or "foam" running down its neck, sweat covering it, and its mouth working to evade the pain from the bits. I understand every discipline has downsides, but none is so evident of abuse (mentally and physically) as the saddleseat industry. 
And if you believe that tail-nicking is ok, then i question you ethically. That is abuse, even when its just a foal. Saddleseat enthusiasts never seem to come up with an ethical (or even close to good) reason for the way they treat the saddlebred breed. 
Yes, saddlebreds do have a naturally high head carriage, they also have a beautiful gait. So why must people "enhance" them? People should show what the horses can really do, instead of what the "trainer" can FORCE them to do. "none are so blind, as those who refuse to see."


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds

TheNuturalEquine said:


> Saddleseat is the sport i enjoy the least. I have judged saddleseat in horse judging contests for years now, and I get so stressed about the poor animals involved. The horses show obvious signs of discomfort, and the bits are just ridiculous, double bridles... really people?! The normal saddleseat horse has drool or "foam" running down its neck, sweat covering it, and its mouth working to evade the pain from the bits. I understand every discipline has downsides, but none is so evident of abuse (mentally and physically) as the saddleseat industry.
> And if you believe that tail-nicking is ok, then i question you ethically. That is abuse, even when its just a foal. Saddleseat enthusiasts never seem to come up with an ethical (or even close to good) reason for the way they treat the saddlebred breed.
> Yes, saddlebreds do have a naturally high head carriage, they also have a beautiful gait. So why must people "enhance" them? People should show what the horses can really do, instead of what the "trainer" can FORCE them to do. "none are so blind, as those who refuse to see."


While foaming in conjunction with other symptoms may be worrisome, mouth foaming is encouraged in many disciplines, particularly dressage, as it shows the horse is relaxing and connecting to it's training. 



> This action of the forehand into the neck cause the salivary glands to stimulate and produce more saliva, which then runs down into the mouth and is foamed by the movement of the lips and jaw. In a relaxed horse this will produce foam around closed lips. Notice in this description I have said nothing of the bit. I believe that the presence of foam has nothing to do with the bit, but is actually a product of correct body mechanics and mental state.


(source: The Fuss About Foam | Dressage Different)

Also, at least in my experience, horses are not ridden and trained in their "show tack" (bits, bridles, sometimes even shoes etc). The reason upper level riders and horses (dressage, saddleseat) *should* be using double bridles is that the horse has had the necessary training under it's belt to accept and understand the use of both bits. The rider also has the responsibility to use their hands, seat, leg, and artificial aids the correct and humane way. 

This website Dressage Double Bridle Misconceptions explains how the use of the bridle may be abused, if the horse and rider are not properly schooled. (But can't we say the same for something as innocent as a crop?)

This Website even gives a list of prereqs one must have before using a double bridle (and that's just for the rider).


> 1. Seat of the rider must be correct, with no reliance on the reins for balance in ALL gaits (including the extended gaits)
> 2. Steady hands
> 3. Body/hands remaining steady during transitions
> 4. Ability to weight seat bones at will
> 5. Control of the lower legs and spurs
> 6. Ability to sit in the center of the horse, both side to side and front to back
> 7. Ability to control the length of the reins, and to shorten/lengthen them at will


(source: An Explanation of the Full Bridle for the Rider)

I have used a majority of Dressage references as it is a much more colloquial concept to most mainstream equestrians than Saddleseat would be.

And finally, YES saddlebreds carry their head high and naturally step high, and you ask why do we as riders work to enhance this? That is what EVERY horse rider strives to do in EVERY discipline! They take a horse's natural abilities and enhance them in order for that horse to excel in a certain discipline. That's how humans work too. (example) If someone is a naturally gifted dancer, coaches strive to enhance that natural ability through practice and training. This breed of horse has a natural way of going that makes it a prime candidate for such riding:








(source: American Saddlebred Stock 5 by LuDa-Stock on DeviantArt )









(source: Charlie XIV by Jag6201 on DeviantArt )

Do not bash a riding style and tack without specifying that it is completely the fault of misinformed, unschooled riders doing things the incorrect way.


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## 4hoofbeat

I just wanted to chime in. I did some Morgan saddle seat shows with my guy when we were both younger. He was trained with a very reputable trainer. I would go everyday to ride. They do not ride everyday in those shoes, or those bits. Well at least where we were.

He had no soundness issues as he got older. 

The bit on the other hand (for showing) I did not like, I tried to ride with as loose a rein as possible. We only did 2 shows (3 saddleseat classes, 2 driving) and I realized I did not like it. I know my horse didn't like it. I never saw him sweat so much from such a short class. Months later we did a couple trail rides that lasted much much longer and he barely broke a sweat.


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## tinyliny

this thread is pretty darn old. it predates my joining Horse Forum.


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## santleky

Like others have said, you have ethical and unethical people in every discipline.

Personally, I don't like any discipline that does unnatural things to horses, whether it's nicking tails, using padded shoes or simply cutting manes real short. I think some of the things they require for showing detract from a horses natural beauty. I don't understand why disciplines/judges don't show and evaluate breeds for their natural looks, gaits and abilities.


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## arduke

LoveTheSaddlebreds said:


> While foaming in conjunction with other symptoms may be worrisome, mouth foaming is encouraged in many disciplines, particularly dressage, as it shows the horse is relaxing and connecting to it's training.
> 
> 
> (source: The Fuss About Foam | Dressage Different)
> 
> Also, at least in my experience, horses are not ridden and trained in their "show tack" (bits, bridles, sometimes even shoes etc). The reason upper level riders and horses (dressage, saddleseat) *should* be using double bridles is that the horse has had the necessary training under it's belt to accept and understand the use of both bits. The rider also has the responsibility to use their hands, seat, leg, and artificial aids the correct and humane way.
> 
> This website Dressage Double Bridle Misconceptions explains how the use of the bridle may be abused, if the horse and rider are not properly schooled. (But can't we say the same for something as innocent as a crop?)
> 
> This Website even gives a list of prereqs one must have before using a double bridle (and that's just for the rider).
> 
> (source: An Explanation of the Full Bridle for the Rider)
> 
> I have used a majority of Dressage references as it is a much more colloquial concept to most mainstream equestrians than Saddleseat would be.
> 
> And finally, YES saddlebreds carry their head high and naturally step high, and you ask why do we as riders work to enhance this? That is what EVERY horse rider strives to do in EVERY discipline! They take a horse's natural abilities and enhance them in order for that horse to excel in a certain discipline. That's how humans work too. (example) If someone is a naturally gifted dancer, coaches strive to enhance that natural ability through practice and training. This breed of horse has a natural way of going that makes it a prime candidate for such riding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (source: American Saddlebred Stock 5 by LuDa-Stock on DeviantArt )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (source: Charlie XIV by Jag6201 on DeviantArt )
> 
> Do not bash a riding style and tack without specifying that it is completely the fault of misinformed, unschooled riders doing things the incorrect way.


I just want to say that I love that you used a picture of "Charlie" or Just Special. That horse is an amazing country and show pleasure horse at Stephens College. Where I went to school and got two of my amazing horses from.


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## DancingArabian

thepie24 said:


> I don't mean to offend, but how can the discipline of Saddleseat be accepted as a legitimate equestrian sport? The horses, mostly Saddlebreds, are locked their stalls most of the time, ridden for 15-20 minutes a day and shod in ridiculous shoes. They have no to time to just be horses, and in the less reputable barns have ginger put in their rectums, chains around their ankles, their tails "nicked"(the nerves cut so that they can hold the tail unnaturally high) and put in tail sets which look suspiciously like torture devices, and sharp bits put in their mouths, all to enhance their "natural" gaits. Natural saddlebreds are sweet, intelligent, beautiful horses who have been enslaved by their riders. In my personal experience, I came across a saddlebred so destroyed by Saddleseat that he was unrideable, sore and his spirit broken. Rumors came in with his owners that firecrackers had been thrown at him to excite him to perform his gaits more extravagantly. People compare it to show jumping and dressage, saying they also use harsh bits and force horses to do things, which may be true, but the real issue is how an entire breed is being exploited, treated as though they are just gaits, not living breathing animals who need to be respected and allowed to act as their instincts dictate, not left in a stall for hours on end wearing a tail set to force them to carry their tail high and shoes that make them snap their feet up. How can the equestrian community ignore this obviously inhumane discipline?



You must be somewhat new to the world of show horses. This is not a saddleseat specific problem. It happens in ALL disciplines. Obviously, not everyone engages in these practices, but it's definitely covers all disciplines.

The community doesn't ignore it, but there's only so much we can do. Look at the poor Big Lick horses - they get it the worst, IMO.


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## Palomine

This thread is 7 years old now? Is the poster back?


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## QtrBel

Not unless the OP changed their user name to TheNuturalEquine. First post for a new user so maybe just searched and this warranted a reply in his book but with the way this site is set up they knew it was an older post.


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## Remali

Yes, this thread is an old one... but, sadly, the problem the OP mentioned still exists. There are so many awful practices with pretty much every breed, although the ASB, and the TWH too, seem to really get their share of it. I would dearly love to see a lot of things banned, starting with cut tails and tail sets, long hooves and hideous stacked "clown" shoes.... and so many more terrible practices.


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## champsal

Wow, finally someone with sense! I don't understand how people keep trying to defend tail cutting as an OK thing and "you're not in the industry, you don't understand." I don't care if it's the norm, it needs to change.


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## champsal

*I agree with OP*

I agree with OP. Don't discredit her opinion simply because they're not "in the industry." When you're around so many people that are "in the industry" you become complacent to things that are the norm and yet don't sit well with a clear conscience. You need to listen to people who criticize because that's how you evaluate yourself. Criticism is a good thing, especially when horses are involved.


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## Palomine

champsal said:


> I agree with OP. Don't discredit her opinion simply because they're not "in the industry." When you're around so many people that are "in the industry" you become complacent to things that are the norm and yet don't sit well with a clear conscience. You need to listen to people who criticize because that's how you evaluate yourself. Criticism is a good thing, especially when horses are involved.



And that too can be said about every discipline. And have pretty much seen it.

People don't like carriage driving because horses should not be made to pull carriages. People don't like eventing because it makes them jump off of banks. People don't like reining because they can't see make a horse slide. People don't like this, or that, or the other...just because.

And hard to take someone seriously that has not experience with whatever it is they are complaining about.


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## Saddlebag

My arab often carried his tail over his back, something I wasn't particularly fond of seeing as it gave me a grandstand view of his pooper. Not sure if tail breaking was banned but many horses now use false tails to recreate the same look.


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## kapbob8

There are bad instructors and good in all disciplines so don't bash one because of the bad things you have heard. I have heard horrible things about quarter horse trainers but I would never bash them because I know for a fact that there are awesome trainers out there. My mare is saddle seat and wow guess what!?
Barefoot, outside almost all day for 7 days a week. Brought in for feeding and riding time. We do trails too. Stop bashing the breed and the discipline and try to actually experience the awesomeness of the discipline from a good trainer before you go saying stuff like that. What do you ride? I'm sure if i dug deep enough I could find some dirt on your discipline as well. Its out there everywhere.


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## saddlebreadandmorgan

*Offensive*

Your ignorance is very offensive. You are clearly uninformed and have no idea what the history of this great horse entails. Saddle horses were officers horses in the civil war, a huge part of American history and extremely beautiful and wonderful animals loved tenderly by there owners. I invite you to come take a lesson with me and educate yourself about saddle seat which is as old as England itself.


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## jaydee

I'm sure as in all horse sports that there are good and bad and as horse lovers surely we should be pressing for the banning of anything that causes pain for the sake of 'fashion'
Rolkurr is banned in many countries and in FEI competitions - you don't need it to get a horse into the right shape for collection
Rapping/poling and blistering are banned in the same way
Yes some people will still do these things but only undercover
The things like tail nicking and elongated hooves and raised shoes are still legal and acceptable - used only to create a totally artificial appearance
Why do it? 
The breeds used in saddleseat classes like the saddlebred, Arabian, morgan surely don't need to look that way, they're beautiful in their natural state and natural action.


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## LadyDreamer

Let this seven year old thread die already!

If you are a new member and are searching Saddlebreds or Saddleseat, please don't let this thread rile you up. And PLEASE stop posting on it. It's seven years old. Ol' shep needs to be put down. Start your own thread about how much you love them. It's better that way. 

This is a nice Saddlebred Friendly forum. The people are nice. There are several saddlebred people on here. Threads like these only serve to upset and you are playing into it nicely. Be strong. Don't hit reply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mary7518006

Why are we whinning over this at least these horses feed and cared for. What need, everyone, is to worry about those thousand or millions of horses that are being shipped to slaughter houses in Mexico and Canada. 
I don't care discipline you look into there's dirt. If its not spurs its bites or whips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wisewoman

It certainly goes against basic principles of any proper English riding style I learned growing up.


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## QtrBel

This is an old post from 2015.


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## dustywyatt

Actually it started in 2008. Either way - let sleeping dogs lie lol.


(And yes I see the irony in posting in an old thread to tell people NOT to post in an old thread **** :tongue


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## Avna

I am not going to step into the hornets' nest of Saddle Seat (any breed) but just want to say, please don't use "whataboutism" to defend your discipline, no matter what it is. Just because there are abuses somewhere else doesn't excuse your abuse, does it? 

Defend your discipline, sure, and you should be able to honestly, if you have any ethics to your name, but don't say "well, other people do worse!" That won't convince me of anything except that maybe all competition with animals is a bad idea since people become so indifferent to suffering when a prize is at stake. Don't think you want to go there.


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