# What do YOU think of clicker training



## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

_What is YOUR opinon on clicker training?_

Personally, I don't like it.
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Pros and Cons?_

Pros - could maybe be useful for horses who won't focus well, I guess.
Cons - add's an extra step I don't feel is necessary. Creates dependency on the "treat/click".
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What experience/have you ever used clicker training. Did you have success? _

Trained my dog with a clicker for a while. Never a horse. Yes, I had success. But I also had the same success without it.
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Can you combine clicker training with other training methods? _

Yes. Although it tends to get confusing for the animal.
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Will you ever be able to stop using the clicker and treats or will you always have to click and treat your horse?_

Don't know. Never used it with a horse and doubt I would. With a dog, it depends on the dog.
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How to keep a horse from becoming 'pushy' with the treats?_

I wouldn't give them 

Basically I approach training in a very different manner than some. I don't look to "treat" or "reward" expected behavior. I give "treats" just because, but never as a form of training. I want the animal working for me and with me, not for the treat.

BUT, I haven't trained a horse in over 25 years so take this for what it's worth to ya


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

What is YOUR opinon on clicker training?

I like it a lot. I use it with my mare, maybe not every day, but it allows for another type of training when maybe something else isn't working. It is a clear "Yes, that is what I want".

Pros and Cons? 

Pros: Clear cue. Positive reinforcement. Most horses respond very well to it. 

Cons: I don't keep the clicker with me at all times. 

What experience/have you ever used clicker training. Did you have success? 

I trained her to NOT be a treat monster. She is also trained to the target. Backing up on verbal command, and ground tying. 

Can you combine clicker training with other training methods? 

I do. I don't stick with one training method. I use whatever works best for my horse and I. I do not think it breaks the "bond", just using different tools to communicate and train.

Will you ever be able to stop using the clicker and treats or will you always have to click and treat your horse? 

You will eventually be able to phase out the treats as well as the clicker with a well established behavior. Something that they do automatically, (picking up hooves) no longer needs any sort of reward. Other behaviors will become second nature like that.

How to keep a horse from becoming 'pushy' with the treats?

I did it the same way you would with a dog and the "Leave it" command. I put a treat in my hand, verbal command "Leave it" let her nose it, lip it (No teeth!) nudge it, but as soon as she turns her head away, *click* treat. She now will politely turn her head to the side and wait for a treat. And if I can train Arya "The Treat Monster" that, any horse can learn it.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What is YOUR opinon on clicker training?
Pros and Cons? 
What experience/have you ever used clicker training. Did you have success? 

Personally I have never found a need to use clicker training. The only experience I have had with it is with dogs, and then they have come to me because they needed training. I find that there is no need for a clicker if training is done correctly.

Can you combine clicker training with other training methods? 

Never tried, but dogs that have been clicker trained adapt quickly to direct commands and praise in the form of a scratch or voice praise.
Will you ever be able to stop using the clicker and treats or will you always have to click and treat your horse? 

See above!


The one thing that puts me off clicker training is that I would never be able to find the darn clicker with all the junk I gather in my pockets!
How to keep a horse from becoming 'pushy' with the treats?


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I also trained my bottle raised calf and now very large adult cow to clicker and target training. No matter how long it has been since her last session with the clicker and target. She automatically recognizes it the next time. Trailer loading with her is easier than some of the horses because she hops right in after the target.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

You gonna carry a clicker around with you 24/7 for the rest of your life ? Whats the difference between a clicker and me using my voice ? Something I actually do have with me all the time.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

The clicker, a whistle, a certain sound you make with your voice is the same thing. It is called a bridge. The sound of the click is just very distinct and most horses have never heard it before which makes it stand out. 

And no, you don't have to carry a clicker around 24/7. It can be phased out, just like praise once you have established the behavior. 

I will do a little ground work with the clicker, then some lunging using NH methods without the clicker, then ride without the clicker. It doesn't have to be used all the time or every day. She understands NH "horse language" just like she understands the click means "Yes".


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

There is huge benefits to clicker training your horse. The whole principle is based in the science of behavior. It is going on already, whether you know it or not. So the more you know and understand the better you will be as a trainer, partner and communicator. You will be shocked by the difference in your horse. The mouthy pushiness only comes by people who are not aware of the behavior principles that govern the horses lives. It is super easy to get polite manners using food as a training tool. I have fixed horses of mouthiness and biting, even aggressive biters, using food as a reward. Again it is all in the basic education. 

You can definitely add "clicker" training to what ever you are currently doing. You will see a big shift in your horses focus and enthusiasm. Whether you want to teach him to stand quietly, better transitions (upward or downward), clipping, trailer loading or jumping a course...or anything else in between.

Every horse does something to avoid something (traditional and Natural Horsemanship) or to get something (positive reinforcement) The key is something that the horse values. There is a huge tendency for humans to assign our own values and not really paying attention to the horses response. Because they are hard wired for food, due to survival, it's value as a motivator is unrivaled by anything we currently hold in horse training. Food, air, water, sleep and procreation are the other primary reinforcements fro which they are hard wired. As you move along in training you will find the food and clicker are not even a focus anymore. I could go on and on...I have used positive reinforcement for 28 years now. BYW the term clicker training is actually erroneous but has become a familiar term. At Sea World we didn't use clickers and we certainly didn't call it clicker training. I have been using it with horses for 18 years now and I have worked extensively with Beezie Madden, two time Olympic Gold medalist and she is on her way to London this year too. In fact I started my training business from an invitation from Beezie and her husband. I lived at their farm and worked with them and their horses. But I have also worked with Olympic coach and dressage rider, Jane Savoie as well as other international professionals. 

Learning about positive reinforcement and how to apply it is easy and quite fun. If you want to learn more or watch some videos you can go to: On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch OR Clicker Training for Horses - YouTube

Th"Clicker Trained Horse Remembers After 7 Years" is a fun one that everyone gets a kick out of. If you have more questions I will be happy to help.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Pros: If it works for someone & their horse that's a pro.

Cons: Listening to that clicker noise if you're not the one using it.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

A horse IS NOT a dog. Nor does its mom bring it food. I strongly disagree with the concept of using food as a training aid. 
Wild dogs bring food back to a den and feed their pups. When you give a dog a treat his brain says, "WOW what a cool dude he brought me some food". 

When you give a horse food, he thinks he just punked you and took it away from you. Yes you can establish dominance and then give treats, but nothing sends a bigger message of leadership to a horse faster than making him wait until you are done eating. 

Still think the clicker is nothing more than a gimmick. I see nothing you can do with a clicker I cant do with a couple simple voice commands. Why waste time training with something then phasing it out ? So I am supposed to train my horse to stand with a click, then phase it out to use something else ? sounds kinda dumb, why not train him to stand when I say "STAND" from the getgo ? My horses are perfectly capable of understanding STAND, BACK, YAH MULE, WHOO MULE, and GET THE @#$%^^ off my foot you stupid f$&*^* !!! jack @#$%^ !!!


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> Still think the clicker is nothing more than a gimmick. I see nothing you can do with a clicker I cant do with a couple simple voice commands. Why waste time training with something then phasing it out ? So I am supposed to train my horse to stand with a click, then phase it out to use something else ? sounds kinda dumb, why not train him to stand when I say "STAND" from the getgo ? My horses are perfectly capable of understanding STAND, BACK, YAH MULE, WHOO MULE, and GET THE @#$%^^ off my foot you stupid f$&*^* !!! jack @#$%^ !!!


I just spit my coffee all over LoL!!!!


Basically for me, I'm a lazy butt. If I have to add an extra step ... "click" .. then at some point I don't want to click any more so I phase that out. Then I've just doubled my work essentially. Also, being 50 ... I had one hell of a time keeping up with where that danged clicker was. I'll be lucky if I can remember where I put a lead rope most of the time 

Am sure this method probably works wonderfully for some folk. Just isn't my thing


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

The difference that positive reinforce creates in the horse and his impetus to learn is amazing. Sure you can make a horse do things. But when you put something in it that the horse values, that changes the horses life and subsequently the way the horse looks at learning. I mean, what is in it for the horse to stand quietly? Really think about why he does it. How did he learn how to do it? What do you do if he doesn't do it? Think about what happens when a horse doesn't stand quietly for mounting? Or doesn't do a good upward transition, what do you do? What about a poor downward transition, what do you do? Does the horse get anything out if it? Pretty much, when they are good, we just leave them alone. We are busy correcting the wrongs, not rewarding the correct decisions. This is the basis for traditional and NH. Why not put something in it for your horse. They don't look at food as some sort of game, they are hard wired to seek it for survival. When they acquire it, they remember what they did to get this valuable commodity. This is happening all of the time and it is called operant conditioning. They are constantly trying to seek what they need to survive and how to avoid unpleasant things. Traditional and NH focus on the use of aversives. Applying pressure through reins, bits, legs, seats, ropes, halters, body placement and displacement. All very effective but not necessarily in the horses best interest. It seems like it was the easiest way long ago, before we learned about how animals (and people too) actually learned and processed information. Fortunately for us and our horses, we are getting a lot smarter . People are catching on fast and change is happening in the horse world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

the "reward" is the release of pressure. When you do right I leave you alone. Hand feeding treats during the training phase is a bad road to go down and can make your horse disrespectful.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I posted a question about clicker training a few days ago because I just started using about 2 weeks ago. i have been using Alexandra Kurland's book "The Click that Teaches." I am very pleased with the results so far. I work with 4 horses and 1 donkey 2 times daily. I try to break it into little 5 minute sessions and each animal gets about 20 minutes of this training a day.

I think the *pros* are the excitement of my equines. They "ask" to play very politely, and I don't think it is just because of the food. They seem to enjoy the process of figuring out what I want and the feeling of success when they get it. For example, when my nervous mare kept her head down for a full minute, she got a "jackpot" (more, better treats for reward), she honestly seemed so pleased with herself! Also, it helps distract my nervous horse. She can focus on the game when she is nervous about something and calm herself. Her attention is on my request, not on the scary trailer/rope/saddle/fly spray/etc.

Finally, and more importantly, it is teaching me to be a better trainer. I know there are a lot of awesome horse trainers on this forum, but I am still learning to pay attention to the details of what my horse is doing. When I ask for a behavior, I really must watch and pay attention for her responses and then be very mindful of my reactions. I am not always on target myself, but I am improving. 

The *cons* are that the click marks the end of the behavior so using it under saddle has limits. However, I have started using CT under saddle with two of the five and it really helps me reinforce the "YES! That's it!" 

Fading is an important concept in any training situation. When you first teach a behavior, you reward every little try, even if it is completely accidental. In fact, it usually is accidental! Just as with NH when you release pressure and praise, with CT you click and treat. But you begin to ask for more as the learner gets more proficient; longer duration, more energy, more creativity, closer to the target behavior (from touch the target to pick up the target). Finally, you just ask for the behavior, the learner performs it, your response is simply to go on to the next task without comment, and your satisfaction is the learner's reward. You have moved to a new behavior to focus on, reward and learn. 

Obviously, I do combine CT with other methods, mainly NH. I studied Clinton Anderson's basics and use that a lot. CT has helped me refine the cues. Again, I think it is my horses attention and positive reactions as well as my improved attention to detail that is helping in this. Now I just point at the chest (back), the shoulder(yield fore), the hip (the hind), the rump (forward), and the poll (head down) to get a response. I was working on that with CA and making slow progress but CT allowed us to really advance quickly with this.

Now, the question about avoiding a horse that is pushy for treats is a good one. The first lesson is that when you hear this click sound it is good and you get a reward. The second is that you must stand quietly and calmly to get the treat. You must take the treat carefully. If you seek treats, it only takes longer to get the reward. If you look forward and wait patiently, you will be rewarded. It is the BEST part! My pushy, grumpy KMSH has become a much better citizen using CT. I do not get mugged for treats at all. 

And one of my horses has already started accepted my vocal click in place of the clicker in just two weeks. 

if anyone is interested in CT, I recommend a good book that takes you step by step. I don't have internet at my house because I live in a remote location, so I don't know if there is enough out there on the web to guide you through it. I go to my book every day and find things I missed the first time. 

I have been an educator for 18 years (K-12) and I like finding ways to teach that include the positive as much as possible. I have been saying for years that horses and teenagers have WAY too much in common. Both respond better to a positive approach. That doesn't mean I don't believe in punishment or negative reinforcement. You need to have as many tricks in your tool box as you can.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> I have been an educator for 18 years (K-12) and I like finding ways to teach that include the positive as much as possible. I have been saying for years that horses and teenagers have WAY too much in common. Both respond better to a positive approach. That doesn't mean I don't believe in punishment or negative reinforcement. You need to have as many tricks in your tool box as you can.


Oh, clicker training teenagers - now THIS would be a revolutionary thing! Actually, get on it, parents would pay heaps to get their problem teenagers sorted


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Joe4d said:


> the "reward" is the release of pressure. When you do right I leave you alone. Hand feeding treats during the training phase is a bad road to go down and can make your horse disrespectful.


The first sentence is not correct. A reward is positive reinforcement - something DESIREABLE that is given for a behaviour to strengthen it. Release of pressure is negative reinforcement - something UNDESIREABLE that is removed, to strengthen a behaviour. They are both valid & valuable methods of influencing behaviour(training).

The second statement is your opinion. That's fine too. I do think that saying 'treats make a horse disrespectful' is a bit like saying 'money is the root of all evil'.... money & treats are inanimate objects, albeit strong motivators for different species, but they don't 'make' anything themselves, it's what the human/trainer/employer _chooses to do with it_ & ask for it that can be a problem.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Joe4d said:


> A horse IS NOT a dog. Nor does its mom bring it food. I strongly disagree with the concept of using food as a training aid.
> Wild dogs bring food back to a den and feed their pups. When you give a dog a treat his brain says, "WOW what a cool dude he brought me some food".
> 
> When you give a horse food, he thinks he just punked you and took it away from you. Yes you can establish dominance and then give treats, but nothing sends a bigger message of leadership to a horse faster than making him wait until you are done eating.
> ...


This just might be the wisest, most accurate post I've ever seen on here. We may never win this argument because we're in a room full of women, but you're right. I don't care what they say.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> This just might be the wisest, most accurate post I've ever seen on here. We may never win this argument because we're in a room full of women, but you're right. I don't care what they say.


Oi, I'm a woman and I agree with Joe4d!

Then again I do have a beard...:lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bribrigirl111 said:


> What is YOUR opinon on clicker training?


I think the *principles* behind c/t are invaluable, no matter what style of training you do. I think c/t is valuable in helping people learn how to be effective and timely with reinforcement. While I don't use a plastic clicker myself, I do find it's helpful to use when teaching people - to the people that is, don't think it's obviously more effective for the animal.



> Pros and Cons?


*Pros* of using positive reinforcement training are that the horse is very motivated and wants to play your games, learn what you want. They enjoy it & have fun. 

Once they learn the basic rules, it's reasonably quick to teach new basic commands & pretty straighforward to build on those basics to teach complex stuff. It's a non stressful, non confrontational approach.

Any unique sound can be used as a 'bridging signal'. I personally use the word "Good!!" Anything that the horse desires can be used as a reward/reinforcement. Food treats are a common & strong one.

*Cons.* If using a plastic clicker(specifics like that aren't necessary though), I think this can be a bit limiting, as I like to have 2 hands free to use with horses, especially when riding. I don't like the sound of a clicker personally either. 

If using food treats(again not necessary, but does tend to be the most practical & reliable +R for horses IME), it can be a problem if you leave your bag full of diced carrot around for horses to find:lol:. It can be a problem for other people who don't use +R when their horses prefer your company!

If using solely +R and not using any -R(pressure/release), which some do, I feel it's more time consuming and you've got to teach a whole nother language of cues, rather than conventional seat/leg/rein aids. But I'm not speaking of that from much personal experience(since I first learned & played around with pure shaping & +R). I use a combination approach & not a 'purist' +R trainer.



> What experience/have you ever used clicker training. Did you have success?


I've successfully trained dogs, horses, cats, chickens, ducks, geese and a magpie. I've helped 'rehab' fearful & aggressive dogs. I've successfully worked with fearful horses, aggressive and 'rude' horses and I've taught everything from tricks to dressage with these principles.



> Can you combine clicker training with other training methods?


Yes. It's basically applied behavioural psychology using positive reinforcement(rewards), so it's not a 'method' as such IMO(altho you'd call using specifics of a plastic clicker a method), and the principles apply to whatever method you wish to use.



> Will you ever be able to stop using the clicker and treats or will you always have to click and treat your horse?


c/t is a way of teaching, not long term management & far from making the animal ever reliant on c/t in order to do something, I believe it's vital that clicker & treats are only used reliably when teaching new behaviours, then they're reduced until it's only randomly given, or for extra Good behaviour. If you do keep on keeping on, it actually is less effective and it's hard to build extra/better behaviours on the foundations you've built. 

An appropriate analogy may be that we reward/praise a first grade child for spelling her own name, but if we continue getting all excited for every little thing she does like this later in her learning, it would be a bit pointless & depending on how we reward & the level of difficulty of her current stage, it would also inhibit her motivation to try harder, learn more.



> How to keep a horse from becoming 'pushy' with the treats?


Teach him & reinforce him for Good manners instead. Be aware of exactly what it is you're reinforcing & be consistant about NEVER reinforcing Rude behaviour. It's not the type of reinforcement you use, it's _what_ you reinforce that strengthens or weakens a behaviour.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> Hand feeding treats during the training phase is a bad road to go down and can make your horse disrespectful.


Without wanting to be overly disrespectful this is a load of tosh. It is extremely easy to use clicker training to teach the horse to wait quietly for the treat. Like any training method, if the timing of the reward is incorrect, the wrong response will get rewarded and in the case of clicker training the pushiness is what can result. So its not the horse's fault and it has nothing to do with respect, simply poor timing on behalf of the trainer. 

I use clicker training extensively in my horse training business, for starting babies as well as solving a number of problem behaviours, especially those related to fear. I no longer use a clicker as the bridge because I kept forgetting it, I use a kiss sound which I can't drop or lose. Unsurprisingly horses are more motivated to perform behaviour to get something they really like, such as food, than escape from something they don't like, such as pressure. Negative reinforcement relies on subjecting the horse to an unpleasant sensation and then removing that sensation to reward the response we want. Positive reinforcement gives them something that they intrinsically enjoy. I think of it as wages.

I combine positive and negative refinforcement with all my horses and I find, esp for the babies it makes learning the basic cues for stop, go, back, turn happen much faster and without tension because the horse is searching for what it needs to do to turn on the food. For fearful behaviours it can be the difference between the horse trialling a big escape response or attempting the behaviour I want in order to get food. It also reduces their anxiety as their focus switches from what they are scared of to how to get the treat. Combined with tactful negative reinforcement its a winner. 

I have been using it for about 10 years and I would never go back to only relying on negative reinforcement to get the responses I want. It does take time to get the timing right, but it also teaches you to get very good at recognising the try and then shaping the behaviour to get the final result. In fact it can make you much more observant and subtle as a trainer. And guaranteed your horse will genuinely want to be with you because you bring good things rather than simply taking bad things away as with negative reinforcement. 

Dog, doplphin, elephant, seal, primate etc trainers have been using this method for over forty years now, and yet in the horse world people who do are seen as soft and ineffective. I don't understand why we are still so resistant to it and its many benefits or why we believe using food to reward our horses for good behaviour is a bad thing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Joe4d*
> _When you give a horse food, he thinks he just punked you and took it away from you. Yes you can establish dominance and then give treats, but nothing sends a bigger message of leadership to a horse faster than making him wait until you are done eating. ....
> 
> I see nothing you can do with a clicker I can't do with a couple simple voice commands. ... So I am supposed to train my horse to stand with a click, then phase it out to use something else ? Sounds kinda dumb, why not train him to stand when I say "STAND" from the getgo_


With the first point, that it's not natural for a horse to bring another horse a feed, IMO it's not relevant. Re leadership/dominance, I do think that's a relevant consideration, but just don't personally agree with the conclusion. It's like saying that horses aren't born with shoes on, so that means they should all go barefoot in all situations. I think it's a very good idea to first consider natural behaviour & analyse different approaches with this in mind, but at the end of the day, just because something's natural doesn't make it necessarily Right or Best, or vice versa IMO.

Re the second part above, a clicker(or whatever 'bridging signal' you choose to use) is not the cue & doesn't replace a cue. So you would indeed use a cue like stand 'from the get go'. A 'bridging signal' is just something that means "Yes! what you did right then earned you a reward". It's helpful IMO because it 'buys time' between behaviour & reward, as animals learn from instant consequences & find it hard or impossible to relate abstract ideas such as 'this is a reward for what you did before'.

Re what's the point in doing something that you're going to phase out, think about however you reinforce a horse - when you teach something, you may praise(actually a b/s not a reward), give a scratch, negatively reinforce a cue by applying/removing pressure, but you don't keep on doing all that after the horse has learned - eg. you don't praise/reward every little step of a back up, you don't teach the horse to respond to a seat cue & continue to back it up with reinforcement from leg & rein when he's already responding to the seat cue.



AmazinCaucasian said:


> We may never win this argument because we're in a room full of women, but you're right. I don't care what they say.


We're not having an argument though, we're having a discussion!:wink: I know an awful lot of women that don't understand or agree with c/t either, and a number of men, including zoo keepers & behavioural scientists training wild animals(could you instruct them on a more effective way?), who may just be offended by that comment too:lol:. 

Each to his own, IMO. I'm just wanting to explain my perspective of where I see opinions based on misunderstandings about the principles.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

corymbia said:


> I no longer use a clicker as the bridge because I kept forgetting it, I use a kiss sound which I can't drop or lose.


That's right - you just reminded me why I stopped using a clicker initially!:lol: Another 'con' to using a plastic clicker, but not for using this approach.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

corymbia said:


> Without wanting to be overly disrespectful this is a load of tosh.


:lol::lol:Glad you included that 'overly'!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

pros: entirely sound training theory and practice. works.

cons: there's a big divide between "believers" and "non-believers" which has resulted in blatantly wrong claims by people trying to defend what are usually preconceived ideas about it. which adds to peoples misinformation.

i dont do it much because it'd be impractical to carry enough food rewards to last the hours i spend with horses, but in the early days with a new horse i sometimes use food rewards to accelerate learning of the very basics.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

christopher said:


> cons: there's a big divide between "believers" and "non-believers" which has resulted in blatantly wrong claims by people trying to defend what are usually preconceived ideas about it.


Such as you must be a woman??:lol::lol:


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

I've never used clicker training with horses. Just with dogs and and a bit with goats lol. 

Dogs are not horses and horses are not dogs, But both respond to pressure/release and both respond to food rewards.

Even if the old way is "good enough" trying a new way is a great idea. People naturally want to do what's always worked for them, but it might not be the best way in every situation. So I am thankful for those brave people that are willing to try out the crazy ideas like ct 

I know I can teach my dog to do way more stuff way faster with a clicker or other marker training than I can with traditional methods. And I know that if used properly, treats fed often can make the animal (dog, horse, goats, sheep) more respectful of your space when there is food around.

But I still use pressure/release training with my dog because sometimes treats just aren't going to work as well. And I will always use it with my horse too.

I have a bag of carrots and the day off... I may have to go try ct with the horses!


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

One thing I do see though is ct having the potential to create some nasty nippy ponies or horses always looking for food if it's done incorrectly and for that reason I wouldn't recommend it to someone that wasn't already a decent trainer. A beginner might click at the wrong time for the wrong things and not recognize if their horse is being direspectful.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> Oh, clicker training teenagers - now THIS would be a revolutionary thing! Actually, get on it, parents would pay heaps to get their problem teenagers sorted


Since I work in a high school, you Know I wish CT worked with them!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Since I work in a high school, you Know I wish CT worked with them!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And especially for a teen attitude. I click my crabby KMSH for ears forward & eyes forward. Wish I could do that with some of my students!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I think it is busywork for humans, and is a waste of time.

Have I used it, no. Will I ever? NO.

Adds steps to horse handling/training that is simply not necessary.

Had spousal unit that would teach neck reining like so.

Pull rein on one side.

The next week, lay other rein against neck while pull on rein on side turning to.

Next week, lay rein against neck THEN pull rein on side turning to.

Next week, lay, pull, and now add heel pressure.

Next week, lay, pull, heel and calf.

Took months to teach horse what could have been done in one week had the fool ever tried to teach it at once. Moron. And ex spousal unit too.

Horses that I work around in often, can be directed by a simpler voice/hand command. No treats involved, no clicker.

Colossal waste of time, and a money maker for whatever fool came up with it. Just like carrot stick, games, and what have you.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Originally Posted by Joe4d 
"When you give a horse food, he thinks he just punked you and took it away from you. Yes you can establish dominance and then give treats, but nothing sends a bigger message of leadership to a horse faster than making him wait until you are done eating. ...."

Doesn't a herd leader take the herd to the best places to eat? Aren't the other horses trading obedience to her commands for food as well as safety?


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Yipes!! This got long! LOL

For the record, I'm a FEMALE 

I think what has bothered me most about this conversation is folks assuming those who don't use or like clicker training are obviously using some old time beating horse with a stick method to get their training done.

I don't see any of that in the responses from those who don't use C/T. What I see is folks saying is "why add that step when you don't have to?" Okay you have a little device that makes a funny noise when you push it. Well my own voice can do that. Be it a "kiss" sound, a funny noise ... and one I used to use a lot is a snap of my fingers. Their is tone of voice, posture, mannerisms. All of these things can be used to achieve the very same goal as this added extra device that makes noise.

Some people like that little thing that makes the noise and that's okay and if it works for you that's great! Others, like myself, prefer a different way that doesn't entail another mechanism I have to hold or another step I have to take to get the same end result.

Now I may have been out of horses for a little over 25 years but I do remember MANY things about teaching from the ground up, youngsters to oldsters. Am also very rusty in other areas that I'm sure when hubby and I get our two I will have to relearn and re-remember.

Whatever methods work for an individual work and that shouldn't be ignored new OR old.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> Oi, I'm a woman and I agree with Joe4d!
> 
> Then again I do have a beard...:lol:


Pics please


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BBBCrone said:


> I think what has bothered me most about this conversation is folks assuming those who don't use or like clicker training are obviously using some old time beating horse with a stick method to get their training done.


Have they?? I haven't seen any of that actually. Please point it out? ...& we'll deal with those in our own way:twisted:



> I don't see any of that in the responses from those who don't use C/T. What I see is folks saying is "why add that step when you don't have to?"


While people have certainly said why bother, what bothers me most about the critics are the comments such as if you use clicker training you're wrong, you don't know what you're doing, you're creating a 'disrespectful' horse & food treats are wrong & food treats cause nipping.... or it's a woman thing... yada. 

IMO, it's an 'each to his own thing' but what bothers me most is the loudest knockers don't seem to understand what it is they're knocking. I personally was just trying to explain some of the misconceptions.



> What I see is folks saying is "why add that step when you don't have to?" Okay you have a little device that makes a funny noise when you push it. Well my own voice can do that. Be it a "kiss" sound, a funny noise ...


Actually I hazard a guess that most of us 'wierdos' don't get hung up about a plastic noisemaker & just use our voice or such as a 'marker'.


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

I wish there was a 'maybe' option to this poll. So I didn't vote.

Me personally, if I was going to China and wanted to communicate with the people there, I'd learn Chinese. Same idea with a horse, I think I'd rather speak in his language and mimic how other horses interact.

Can it be useful? Yeah I guess so, but I think l prefer 'horse'.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Since I work in a high school, you Know I wish CT worked with them!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting you should say that because it is used with people - again, talking principles, not getting hung up on the type of marker. I don't know how much it's strictly used with older kids(& IMO kids & husbands are the hardest species to train!), but it's definitely been used with younger kids & also with mentally impaired people. I've also heard human practitioners saying 'Of course it works with people, but it seems rediculous that people think it would work on dogs... horses, etc' Guess it comes down to experience.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

loosie said:


> Have they?? I haven't seen any of that actually. Please point it out? ...& we'll deal with those in our own way:twisted:


Actually hon, I re-read the "offending" post and even though it still gives me pause, I might be taking the wording the wrong way. Unfortunately I can't edit my post so I'll just state here I believe I might have misinterpreted it.



> While people have certainly said why bother, what bothers me most about the critics are the comments such as if you use clicker training you're wrong, you don't know what you're doing, you're creating a 'disrespectful' horse & food treats are wrong & food treats cause nipping.... or it's a woman thing... yada.


Yep, I can understand that. Nothing is ever wrong I don't think (I of course stop at beating into submission and other forms of abuse that are not ever necessary). There are uses for all types of training and mixing and matching to match your horses needs and unique personality should all be taken into consideration.



> IMO, it's an 'each to his own thing' but what bothers me most is the loudest knockers don't seem to understand what it is they're knocking. I personally was just trying to explain some of the misconceptions.


Can definitely understand your point here.



> Actually I hazard a guess that most of us 'wierdos' don't get hung up about a plastic noisemaker & just use our voice or such as a 'marker'.


BAHAHA! That made me chuckle. I'm about as "weird" as one can get . When I was teaching my dogs new things I'd get so excited for them when they "got it" I'd jump around acting like an idiot. I made my own noise maker  Of course they thought I was a complete fool. Now they do stuff just to watch me look crazy!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BBBCrone said:


> Of course they thought I was a complete fool. Now they do stuff just to watch me look crazy!


Ha ha! Glad I'm not the only one who's animals have trained me to do silly things!


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

I noticed that people said that ct training wastes time. And it might be true, but sometimes it's okay to waste time with your horse. Most of us aren't pro trainers and never will be. And spending time out of my busy schedule with my horses... Trying to get them to use their brain in a new and fun way? I don't see that as a waste of time. If you're both having fun and learning it's time very well spent in my book.

It's nice to take a break from routine and try something different. If it works then awesome and if not, well, no harm done.


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

corymbia said:


> Without wanting to be overly disrespectful this is a load of tosh. It is extremely easy to use clicker training to teach the horse to wait quietly for the treat. Like any training method, if the timing of the reward is incorrect, the wrong response will get rewarded and in the case of clicker training the pushiness is what can result. So its not the horse's fault and it has nothing to do with respect, simply poor timing on behalf of the trainer.


Agreed. It is just like teaching a dog not to jump at you for the treat, or shoving its nose in your bait bag (if you are short, or the dog is tall enough to reach).

You just work on a behavior that is contrary to the one you don't want. Like teaching the dog to sit, it is not going to be jumping at you. With a horse you can teach them to back up, or turn their head away, or anything else that gets them out of your space.

Honestly I'd say aside from teaching them what the click means, it is one of the first things you'd train any animal when working with a clicker.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr said:


> Can it be useful? Yeah I guess so, but I think l prefer 'horse'.


Like the comment about different cues, it's not about replacing a 'language', it's just about being able to *clearly* tell the horse that he earned a reward, marking an instant of a behaviour... of which I don't know that there's an effective 'horse word' for anyway.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

srh1 said:


> I noticed that people said that ct training wastes time. And it might be true, but sometimes it's okay to waste time with your horse. Most of us aren't pro trainers and never will be. And spending time out of my busy schedule with my horses... Trying to get them to use their brain in a new and fun way? I don't see that as a waste of time. If you're both having fun and learning it's time very well spent in my book.
> 
> It's nice to take a break from routine and try something different. If it works then awesome and if not, well, no harm done.


I Love this! You are so right, so long as you're spending time with your horse, the time isn't wasted. This concept is wasted time is about people who have a pile of horses they're being paid to train quickly. 

Honestly I read this whole post with great interest! I was very curious about whether it was worth a shot or not. Definitely sounds like something I might want to try - with a twist. I plan on using a smooch or similar vocal cue rather than a clicker - I know I'll never have it with me when I need it. I was also wondering can you use something other than food? My horse has a very, very itchy belly and I've used her itchy belly to get her comfortable with everything she's afraid of including myself at first. I was wondering if I could use the smooch as a bridge to connect belly scratches instead of connecting it to food. She is quite the moose with food, I only ever give her treats when she's completely not expecting it and only just as a surprise cause I love her. But if I give her food the whole rest of the day she's in my pocket nosing around, even though in order to get the food she has to back up 3 steps and wait. But once she's got it she's right back in my space. So I want to avoid food as anything other than a surprise 'i love you'. 

Interesting posts everyone!!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

PunksTank said:


> I Love this! You are so right, so long as you're spending time with your horse, the time isn't wasted. This concept is wasted time is about people who have a pile of horses they're being paid to train quickly.


I love that point too - much rather waste time doing having FUN WITH horses than WORKING ON them. But while I don't train other's horses in a 'churn 'em out' type fashion, while initial lessons can indeed be slow, because motivation to learn is so high, I don't know that overall training does take substantially longer than trainers that don't use it anyway & the horse has a much more positive attitude at the end. Maybe I'm kidding myself though, that just because other trainers say they also take 3-4 weeks(on average of course) to put the basics on a horse, that means they're actually training them for that time...



> I might want to try - with a twist. I plan on using a smooch or similar vocal cue rather than a clicker


IMO that's not a 'twist' - it's not about getting hung up on specifics like plastic noise makers & food treats, it's about using the 'laws of learning' most effectively. There's no 'law' about plastic clickers, just that many people have found them a handy tool. Dolphin trainers tend to use a whistle for eg.



> can you use something other than food? My horse has a very, very itchy belly and I've used her itchy belly


Likewise, food treats aren't the only +R. Just that food is a universally strong +R(generally - not when the horse isn't hungry or preoccupied with fear or such) & is usually also a practical one. An effective +R may be anything that the horse truly desires, that is practical to give quickly.



> I only ever give her treats when she's completely not expecting it and only just as a surprise cause I love her. But if I give her food the whole rest of the day she's in my pocket nosing around, even though in order to get the food she has to back up 3 steps and wait. But once she's got it she's right back in my space.


This sounds a bit inconsistent to me, so I suspect the 'rudeness' is due to her not knowing what's allowed/being reinforced. For one, you say you give treats just as a surprise, but then you say you ask her to back up and wait for them. Which is it? Until she learns some manners & you get consistent, I personally wouldn't randomly give food just for the hell of it, but would only give it for 'good' behaviour. Also if you do give it randomly, you still need to take notice of what's happening immediately before it - are you inadvertently reinforcing 'rudeness'? I'd also be consistent about disallowing her 'mugging' behaviour, rather than what seems to be you allowing it at all times except when you ask her to back up for a treat. Again, it's not what type of +R you use, but _what behaviour you're reinforcing_ - you could just as easily turn her into a 'moose' for belly scratches.

...Which reminds me, when I started learning all this, I had a mare that would come up & turn her butt on you & start backing into you:shock:... because she loved a tail scratch so much & I'd inadvertently reinforced that behaviour


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

srh1 said:


> One thing I do see though is ct having the potential to create some nasty nippy ponies or horses always looking for food if it's done incorrectly and for that reason I wouldn't recommend it to someone that wasn't already a decent trainer. A beginner might click at the wrong time for the wrong things and not recognize if their horse is being direspectful.



This is absolutely true, see my previous post about how to avoid this. However, what is also true, is the poorly applied "tradtional" or NHS methods based on negative reinforcement (when applied by both experienced and inexperienced people) can and do lead to:



bucking
rearing
kicking
bolting
shying
biting etc.
The consequences of which can be catastrophic for the human invovled, as well as the horse. Beginnner horse owners/riders, irrespective of the method they are using are at much higher risk of injury than more experienced people (except vets interestingly). A review paper by Hawson et al (2010) found that one of biggest risk factors for death or serious injury amongst horse people was hours of experience. And certainly, the vast majority of these injuries occured with horses who were not clicker trained. 

I'd also comment that often people give up on clicker training because they don't have success with it and then they blame the method, rather than the fact that their timing is usually a bit off and they are rewarding the wrong behaviour. Like any learned skill, it takes practice to get better at and when I think back to my early days with it, I was pretty hopeless at it. But then I was also pretty hopeless at riding when I started learning that too. 

I am also not saying negative reinforcement is a bad thing, far from it, its unavoidable in horse training and when its done well we get calm, reliable, well trained horses. Its just that, given NR relies on using aversive experiences and their removal to train the horse, why not also use something that the horse genuinely likes (food) as well, where practical. 

As to the question about fading it out- I think this misses the point about what happens in NR as well. Surely the ideal should be that our horse responds to the lightest cues and we only ever resort to stronger cues when it doesn't. So we also fade out the stronger cues we use to install responses and hopefully rely on light ones, or cues such as seat/voice etc. This is similar to fading out the food rewards in clicker training. 

So far, I haven't had a problem with it and owners of horses I have started have told me that their horse still performs the behaviour (such as standing still to be mounted) years later without a single food reward since. This demonstrates that the behaviour has simply become a habit for the horse and that you are not condemned to carrying around pounds of carrots for the rest of your life


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

loosie said:


> I personally wouldn't randomly give food just for the hell of it, but would only give it for 'good' behaviour. Also if you do give it randomly, you still need to take notice of what's happening immediately before it - are you inadvertently reinforcing 'rudeness'? r


Absolutely. Since becoming a regular user of CT, I almost never hand out food for no reason. I use it as an opportunity to reinforce a behviour I want, whether its simply turning their head away, or backing a step, or doing a step of side pass etc. My horses all live out in big paddocks so I deliberately give them food for cantering up to the gate when they see me because its a behaviour I want them to repeat. However, they only get the food if they also turn their heads away and wait a few seconds. 
Occasionally I might have as many as eight horses lined up along the fence, all with their heads turned away at the same time. Looks pretty cute when it happens. 

I heard a talk by the head police dog trainer of a state police department who said that the food used in the sessions came out of the dog's daily ration. It was very rare that the dogs would receive food without having to perfom a cued behaviour. The trainer said it kept them them in lean, fit health and ensured they were highly motivated to learn. They also used play as a reward, something that's harder to do with horses, given we're likely to get injured by many of the things horses do in play.


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone has mentioned that horses are like dogs. Positive reinforcement works for almost any animal. I think its a language they understand; treats=good behavior. When I train I alternate between " what a good boy! " ( rub rub pet pet ) and treats so that they learn to not expect a treat everytime and that my praise is just as good as treats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## minihorse (Aug 3, 2012)

i've clicker trained my mini horse, dog and cat. it's a bit misunderstood about the feeding. Yes, in the beginning you feed as soon as the animal does the action you're looking for. as that action is becoming a 100% learned action, the feeding becomes less and less. And there is no need to carry a clicker all the time if you are able to mimic the sound using your tongue.
there is nothing wrong with clicker training and there is nothing wrong with not using it. i found lily responded quicker and seemed more anxious to learn and stay focused. i suspect it depends upon the person/trainer and the horse as to what method works best. I bought Alexandra Kurlands videos, watched them all a couple of times before i began training. speaking just for myself, I couldn't have trained without the video guidance (I also was 63 when I got my first horse) so being old maybe I just needed more visual assistance. best of luck!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KatRocks said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think anyone has mentioned that horses are like dogs.


How DARE you!!:lol: I don't think it went down too well when a teacher complimented me on my skill with primary kids & I said that's because I'm used to training animals!:-|


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

loosie said:


> How DARE you!!:lol: I don't think it went down too well when a teacher complimented me on my skill with primary kids & I said that's because I'm used to training animals!:-|


Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

I do not "recommend" it, but I don't disapprove of it. If it works for you, have at it.. not for me. Clicking noises make me grumpy... repetetive clicking noises make me homicidal.. can't even use one of those wind up clocks.. the tick tock drives me insane.. and don' even get me started on those freaky cat clocks.. oh wait clicker training... use it if you like but please not around me...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

longshot said:


> Clicking noises make me grumpy... repetetive clicking noises make me homicidal..


:lol::lol:Have to agree with you there! That's another reason why I don't use a clicker.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I have not needed clicker training. Perhaps if I run into some behavior I need to extinguise and can't, or need a desired movement and can't get it, I'll give clicker training a go. That hasn't happened yet.

That said, I certainly don't care what others use to achieve good results as lond as it is not abusive.

My own daughters rode daily and eventually started experimenting with what you could use to cue a horse with. I remember flyswatters (not for hitting, but for visual cues though they said it was handy for wapping flies off each other), Barbie dolls with the kids using goofy voices (voice cues with a weird twist), an actual carrot on a stick was used on one to cue for the canter.

I would never have someone who's horse is "clicker trained" ride with me, just as I cannot have anyone who is a Parelli follower ride with me. They both are too focused on the process to get anything done.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

boots said:


> I would never have someone who's horse is "clicker trained" ride with me, just as I cannot have anyone who is a Parelli follower ride with me. They both are too focused on the process to get anything done.


Is that the horse or rider you're talking about? Perhaps you've only ridden with beginner or fanatical c/ters or Parelli-ites. I ride with a range of different people & perhaps I'm just too focussed myself on enjoying my surrounds & some good conversation, but I haven't noticed the Parellis or the c/ters being any more focussed on anything else either. Must admit I haven't ridden with a big group of either of them.... perhaps the pack mentality switches on then!:lol:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

loosie said:


> Is that the horse or rider you're talking about? Perhaps you've only ridden with beginner or fanatical c/ters or Parelli-ites. I ride with a range of different people & perhaps I'm just too focussed myself on enjoying my surrounds & some good conversation, but I haven't noticed the Parellis or the c/ters being any more focussed on anything else either. Must admit I haven't ridden with a big group of either of them.... perhaps the pack mentality switches on then!:lol:


I ranch. And when we leave the corrals we have work to do. Keep up or stay home. Figure out how to get your pony from point "A" to point "B" or get back to going in circles.


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## EquineCookies (Mar 22, 2012)

What is YOUR opinon on clicker training?

*As long as it's done properly and the person who is training knows what they're doing. I suggest anyone who takes an interest in it does some research to avoid problems. I do it with Rosie, mainly just for trick purposes and for something fun to put into our time spent together.

* Pros and Cons? 

*Pros: Gives a clear "Yes, this is what I want", lots of fun, would be a fun idea for something to do with a horse that can no longer be ridden.
Cons: If not done properly it can result in a pushy, nippy, and treat-mugging horse. Also some people forget to always carry a clicker around with them (although this can be fixed with a verbal noise to substitute).

* What experience/have you ever used clicker training. Did you have success? 

*I do use clicker training for trick and fun purposes. I've only been doing it for a few days (just since August 5th) but my horse has learned very quickly. We are having success so far and it's a lot of fun for both me and Rosie.

* Can you combine clicker training with other training methods? 

*Definitely. I never stick to just one training method. Along with clicker training I also use some Parelli and Stacy Westfall natural horsemanship - more evidently during the off season as I usually don't have time during show season.*

Will you ever be able to stop using the clicker and treats or will you always have to click and treat your horse? 

*Eventually you should be able to take away the treats as an instant award, and give them later. The clicker should be a promise that the treat will come later. I've started to gradually take away the treats as an instant award, still giving a small treat every few efforts to keep her rewarded.

* How to keep a horse from becoming 'pushy' with the treats?

*I suggest either getting the horse to lower its head to the ground when it mugs for treats, or teach it to look away. When the horse lowers its head or looks away, I click and treat.*


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## minihorse (Aug 3, 2012)

I recently observed a clicker training demonstration given by Gwenyth Santagate. Although I've clicker trained my 3 animals, I wanted to observe Gwenyth out of curiosity and like EquineCookies said, "eventually you should be able to take away the treats". Gwenyth explained why you don't always have to treat. When you click, the animal realized it's done something right and a treat happens, at this point the endorfins (spelling? sorry) kick in. As training progresses the animal hears the click and the endorfins kick in immediately and makes the animal feel good (a reward in it's own right) hence the treat isn't needed. I only click Lily when we are learning something new. Well, thats a bit of a lie - if we are in a hospital or nursing home and I feel a patient needs a pick me up, I'll ask her to rear up; for that she always gets a treat.
Again, clicker is good but it isn't the only answer and some people click and never treat, the reward is just a pat or a word of reward.
I'm 66 and have 6 clickers..............can't find one of the darn things so I make the noise with my tongue. Maybe some day I'll remember where I left the darn things


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## BarrelRacingLvr (Feb 26, 2012)

Personally....I think it should stay with the dogs.

JMO


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Funny I was just talking to a person about clicker training the other day. She said "No way I'd never try anything like that, that teaches my horse to be rude and disrespectful - I shouldn't have to use food to make him behave!" I tried to explain but to no avail. I explained to her how target training can even help with things like trailering and she said "Oh I don't need that - I just shake a bucket of grain and he gets right on"!!!! Are you SERIOUS? And you think clicker training is silly? xD


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

You can lead a person to knowledge Punks, but you can't make them think! ;-)


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

You mean the clicker training that when a horse does something right and you click a thingy and give them a treat?

Truly. NO. 

I will NEVER recommend clicker training. Especially when it involves treats. 

All the horse's who I've meet that have been 'clicker trained' have been VERY pushy and disrespectful. For example, my friend trained her horse to lay down with using treats and clicker training. Now her horse lays down whenever he wants. 

Same thing with rearing. 

Its just dangerous and I've never seen a horse who is respectful and that has clicker training with treats.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Its just dangerous and I've never seen a horse who is respectful and that has clicker training with treats.


Respectfully, that's rubbish apart from the fact that you can say that about any method done badly. I rarely see respectful horses & I don't know any other c/t people, hardly any Parelli followers, etc, mostly only your stock standard conventionally trained horses & I don't knock conventional training for causing 'rude' or 'disrespectful' horses. Don't blame the 'tools' for your friend having been a bad 'tradesman'.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> Respectfully, that's rubbish apart from the fact that you can say that about any method done badly. I rarely see respectful horses & I don't know any other c/t people, hardly any Parelli followers, etc, mostly only your stock standard conventionally trained horses & I don't knock conventional training for causing 'rude' or 'disrespectful' horses. Don't blame the 'tools' for your friend having been a bad 'tradesman'.


I still find it pointless. The whole thing. Clicker training shouldn't be for horses, its like training them to be like dogs. Thats really what it is. Click, treat. 

A horse shouldn't learn through treats. Horses were not meant to learn through treats.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Horses were not meant to learn through treats.


if not through the removal of a negative or the addition of a positive (which have the same effect), how were horses meant to learn?

this is a case of:




christopher said:


> has resulted in blatantly wrong claims by people trying to defend what are usually preconceived ideas about it. which adds to peoples misinformation.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> its like training them to be like dogs.


You don't see any point in it, you don't like the examples you've seen and you don't understand the principles. That's fine by me. But I don't get the dog comment?? :lol:



> A horse shouldn't learn through treats. Horses were not meant to learn through treats.


Not that it's about treats as such, but why not? If not positive reinforcement, then I guess you think horses should only be trained with negative reinforcement & punishment? There are those that believe dogs shouldn't be treat trained & a few jerks on a choke collar is the only way, spare the rod & spoil the child type approach. I just disagree & IMO positively reinforcing/rewarding 'good' behaviour clearly is important & effective in teaching/training horses, dogs, humans... whatever the species.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

loosie said:


> If not positive reinforcement, then I guess you think horses should only be trained with negative reinforcement & punishment


see the thing i dont understand about the whole clicker training/positive reinforcement debate is that people seem to not understand that if negative reinforcement works, then positive reinforcement works, and it works just as well by default. because +reinforcement, and -reinforcement, are exactly the same thing at different points on a spectrum. the +/- is just a way of comparing them to the "line" that is between punishment/reinforcement.


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## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

*of course not!*



Joe4d said:


> You gonna carry a clicker around with you 24/7 for the rest of your life ? Whats the difference between a clicker and me using my voice ? Something I actually do have with me all the time.


I use a clicker but there are times when I leave it home, in the car, lost in the barn somewhere...but when training I always use a verbal cue OR a physical cue along with the clicker. I have found that with the clicker the horse recognizes the desired behavior I want much faster because they know that the clicker sound means they did something good. And once they know what I want I have never had a problem getting the same response without the clicker. I cant imagine any reason why any body would think its a negative thing. It's certainly helpful.

I also reward with a good scratch about 70-80% of the time, treats are just used to recapture his interest when it starts to wander.


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## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

christopher said:


> see the thing i dont understand about the whole clicker training/positive reinforcement debate is that people seem to not understand that if negative reinforcement works, then positive reinforcement works, and it works just as well by default. because +reinforcement, and -reinforcement, are exactly the same thing at different points on a spectrum. the +/- is just a way of comparing them to the "line" that is between punishment/reinforcement.


Negative reinforcement is to stop or deter a behavior....of course it plays a mandatory role in teaching and learning.... I would hate to have to deal with a horse that never got any - reinforcement. However, positive reinforcement is great to teach a horse a skill or emphasize something he already does. 

For example, I had a guy who loved stealing my crop. I used the clicker to teach him to touch a cone, pick up a cone, and then retrieve it. I cant imagine how negative reinforcement could be used to teach the same skill in that case but it definitely is necessary in other situations.


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## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> I still find it pointless. The whole thing. Clicker training shouldn't be for horses, its like training them to be like dogs. Thats really what it is. Click, treat.
> 
> A horse shouldn't learn through treats. Horses were not meant to learn through treats.


I reward with a scratch and ONLY use treats if his attention wanders just to make him interested again. Typically I keep a treat in my shirt pocket, he can smell it, and thats all that is needed.....the hope lol. Anyways, he learns FAST! Clicker training in of itself isn't bad....its all the horrible trainers who misuse them. I left mine on a table at the barn and came back in and some idiot lady was standing there clicking it over and over. :evil:

I still do ground work and ask him to respect me but I also think its rewarding to see him _thinking about things. 

When learning a new behavior it is very rewarding to see him actually trying to figure out what it is I want. I truly believe that they are fairly intelligent animals and that having a challenge makes their life more full and rewarding. Clicker training helps facilitate the learning, treats aren't necessary _


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mnl764 said:


> Negative reinforcement is to stop or deter a behavior....


When talking about negative reinforcement, the 'negative' doesn't actually mean 'bad' but 'subtract'. The positive means 'plus'. Reinforcement means doing something which strengthens the behaviour. Punishment means a consequence that weakens a behaviour.

Positive Reinforcement(+R) = Addition of something desirable to strengthen a behaviour(reward, treat, scratch)
Negative Reinforcement(-R) = Removal of something undesirable to strengthen a behaviour(release of pressure, relax)
Positive Punishment(+P) = Addition of something undesirable to weaken a behaviour(tug on the reins, smack with a crop, zapped by electric fence)
Negative Punishment(-P) = Removal of something desirable to weaken a behaviour(removal of food, freedom)

I think a lot of people misinterpret 'negative reinforcement' for punishment & although when you think about it, there's a fine line - eg. you generally have to apply something undesirable in order to then negatively reinforce it, I do think there's a huge difference between -R & +P in the way they're understood.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

mnl764 said:


> Negative reinforcement is to stop or deter a behavior....of course it plays a mandatory role in teaching and learning.... I would hate to have to deal with a horse that never got any - reinforcement. However, positive reinforcement is great to teach a horse a skill or emphasize something he already does.


other than the fact that you've mixed up negative reinforcement and positive punishment, i agree.


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## mnl764 (Apr 8, 2012)

*well yes...*



christopher said:


> other than the fact that you've mixed up negative reinforcement and positive punishment, i agree.


I agree I got them mixed up and will get them mixed up the second I am not actively looking at this post...lol, my main point however, was that a clicker was great to use with positive reinforcement. And that you would have to be insane to only use one kind of tool or approach when working with horses lol

Not sure why clickers are getting such a bad rep on here...?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mnl764 said:


> Not sure why clickers are getting such a bad rep on here...?


I think it's just down to not understanding the principles behind it. Eg. that an actual plastic clicker is not a necessary part of it - just a handy, practical tool of choice for many. Or that you can only teach certain animals/tricks. Or that a certain type of reinforcement creates 'respect' while another type creates 'rudeness'. Or that 'clicker trainers' use food treats/+R to the exclusion of any other methods or feedback - as you said, 'you would have to be insane to only use one kind of tool or approach when working with horses' - I agree!:wink:


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

You definitely don't need the clicker! Any noise or cue that the horse can perceive and you can repeat will do. I use a kiss noise because I kept dropping and losing my clicker-esp when riding.

And for those who think that we shouldn't treat our horses like dogs (why not?) clicker training was actually developed by people who train killer whales and dolphins. Elephants in Nepal are now being trained with it instead of being tied up and beaten into submission. If you can use it to gain control of a three tonne elephant what is wrong with using it to gain control of a 1000 pound horse.

The most dangerous horses I have ever encountered have all been trained (very badly) with negative refinforcement. Very few horses learn to buck, rear, bolt or shy because they got carrots at the wrong time, but plenty of horses learn to do all these things because of negative reinforcement gone wrong. This forum is full of stories about such horses.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> You don't see any point in it, you don't like the examples you've seen and you don't understand the principles. That's fine by me. But I don't get the dog comment?? :lol:


Have you ever watched the show on AnimalPlanet, Is It Me Or The Dog? She does clicker training.
Then have you ever watched Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson work with horses?

Point is, Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli treat their horses like horses. Not through clicker training like dogs.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Point is, Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli treat their horses like horses. Not through clicker training like dogs.


I don't get your point. Have you seen Gwenneth Santagate(for eg) training horses & have you seen that 'dog whisperer' or anyone training a dog with a choke chain or related 'methods'? Since you mention the name, have you seen Parelli deal with his dogs... & what they appear to think of him?:-(


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## Alpha App (Aug 9, 2012)

I show horses.

Unless I can take a training aid into the show pen with me, I try not to use it.


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## livelovelaughride (Sep 13, 2011)

My 32 y.o QH mare is not up for an invigorating ride, but her mind is as sharp as a tack. We are having fun clicker training for tricks. It is great to see her engaged and lively. I am mindful of how she takes treats; there is no mugging.
My gelding loves to learn as well. I c/t every once in awhile and try to be consistent in my delivery of praise/pats/treats when he "gets" it. I think he's enjoying it, too.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Have you ever watched the show on AnimalPlanet, Is It Me Or The Dog? She does clicker training.
> Then have you ever watched Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson work with horses?
> 
> Point is, Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli treat their horses like horses. Not through clicker training like dogs.


 
I train with treats (and my "kiss" clicker) and I treat my horses like horses. No mugging, no pushing, no bossing. It all comes down to the behaviour I want the horse (or dog, or cow, or dolphin) to perform, the cue and reward for the animal. Getting something nice to eat is often much more motivating for a horse than having a pressure taken away, which is how negative reinforcement works. 

We can't avoid NR in horse training, but adding -)) food rewards can make the job of training that much easier. A French study compared horses trained to perform a task with positive reinforcement and those trained with negative reinforcement. They found that in the short and longer (12 months) term, the PR trained horses volunatarily spent considerably more time with and simply hung out with both their trainers and unfamiliar trainers compared to the NR horses. 

A link to the study http://paardengedrag.be/wp-content/...ad-to-lasting-positive-memories-in-horses.pdf


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I've begun training my pony with clicker (smooch) training. He has excelled SO fast. I can't believe how incredible. He went from a frightened aggressive pony who was returned to our rescue after 'attacking' his NH trainer to a pony I can take Anywhere - including walks near cars, busy trails with dogs, everything! I'm working on teaching him agility by following his target now. 

I feel so bad for my mare who I'm still training using NH- I think it's time I start teaching her with smooch training too ^^


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

corymbia said:


> and I treat my horses like horses. No mugging, no pushing, no bossing. ...
> We can't avoid NR in horse training, but adding -)) food rewards...


Yeah, I just don't get the 'don't treat horses like dogs' attitude at all & all I can put it down to is that some people may have the attitude that dogs don't need to learn 'manners' or some such - personally I don't like dogs 'mugging' me any more than horses.

Re the 'can't avoid NR', *apparently* according to 'purist' PR trainers you can, but I personally don't have a problem in the least with using 'normal' training & feel like doing away with it would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Perhaps this is where the myth of 'spoiling' horses with PR comes from - people that don't understand assume that's the only technique used.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ya know, I don't get the 'don't treat a horse like a dog' thing either! I take my pony out for walks, I don't have a dog, what harm is it doing him to go for a walk, get some exercise, learn about new things, and give me some company? 

Any time spent positively with a horse is NOT a waste! It doesn't matter if you're scratching them behind the ear and feeding them treats, so long as rules are enforced and obeyed why Shouldn't you enjoy playing with your horse? What is classified as 'treating a horse like a dog'? giving them a treat? Taking them for a walk? Scratching them? Teaching them commands and tricks? Maintaining respectful boundaries? Are you treating a horse like a dog simply by not making them 'work'? Can't work be fun? Why not enjoy your animal rather than just use it as a tool for work?

I simply don't get it.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

I can't remember if I've posted on this thread already, but I know I've talked about clicker training on other threads and will get up on my soapbox to talk about it here. Sorry for being so repetitive, but this is something I'm passionate about and I hate seeing it go misunderstood to the point of being completely stomped on.

The basic truth is that ALL ANIMALS LEARN THINGS THE SAME WAY. THIS IS A FACT. YES, EVEN YOUR HORSE LEARNS THINGS THIS WAY. NO ANIMAL (NOT EVEN YOUR HORSE) IS ABSOLVED OF THE LEARNING THEORY. The four quadrants of the learning theory are positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement, negative punishment. It doesn't matter if we're working with other humans, horses, dogs, or goldfish - the same theories apply. How you choose to apply these theories (and which ones you choose to apply) is up to you. For me, I prefer to use positive reinforcement and negative punishment wherever possible. Only in extreme cases would I use negative reinforcement (very rare) or positive punishment (almost never).

Can you teach an animal (dog, horse, dolphin, etc.) without a clicker? Of course. Can they learn faster, without fear of punishment, and be motivated to learn more things with a clicker? YES.

Clicker training can be applied to an absolute multitude of behaviours. Most people use it for dog tricks, and that's cool, but to be honest that's about 5% of the big picture. Next time you pull out your clicker, look at your dog (or horse) and see how keen they are to work once they see it. Now what if you could take that excitement and put it to use in other ways - such as basic manners, grooming, leading, etc.? The opportunities you have with a clicker are honestly...completely endless. I'm not saying that those who choose not to use clickers are doing their animals a disservice, or that your animals hate you, but only that you should open your eyes and minds to it. It's not witchcraft, it's not heresy, it's not being a pushover or a pez dispenser. It's making your animals excited to work with you, and seeing rapid and long-lasting results.

If I can turn an aggressive dog into a lover dog using a clicker, certainly horse people can teach their horses to like having their feet picked! And yes, you can train aggressive horses with a clicker in the exact same way that you would do it with a dog.

What people forget is that clicker training started with marine mammals and then was used for horses LONG before it ever caught on with dogs. You can't whip, kick, spur, etc. a dolphin, so what are you left with if you can't apply pressure? Think about how often you use pressure in your daily life with your horses and ask yourself...is there another way that I could do this? 

My mantras are:

I want my dog/horse to work WITH me, not FOR me.
Training is something I do WITH my dog/horse, not TO my dog/horse.

Please - read Don't Shoot The Dog! by Karen Pryor (it's not about dogs) and learn more about it. Part of being responsible in this sport is knowing and understanding all aspects of training, and choosing the one that's right for you. Making blind assumptions about something you clearly do not understand is never helpful to anyone.

Here is a video of a horse who came to the present owner as a totally unpredictable bag of nerves. This horse was completely rehabilitated and trained using only force-free methods, including the clicker. I really encourage you to watch the whole thing.

Think about how these simple techniques can be applied to "real" horsemanship. Running a figure 8 around the chairs can be expanded into barrel racing, jumping over logs and jumps can be expanded into bigger jumps, the horse is learning to be less fearful of ordinary objects such as chairs and blankets through targeting (touching with the nose), the horse accepts grooming, and knows a multitude of really practical things. All that may look sweet and fun, but have a real purpose in life. Not to mention...how amazing is their relationship??? This is a horse who could not be touched!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPiKvDpxv4&feature=player_embedded


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Meatos, well said. When I began to learn NH I began to question whether my horse was doing something because of fear of repercussion which could be mistaken as respect. When I introduced clicker training to a fearful horse there began a profound change in him which tied in to the way I altered my training and gave him a say in the matter. When I began to teach him to stand for spraying, he was at liberty. He got a treat so he'd know I had them. I sprayed the ground beside me,and because he stood still, c/t. The next was on his lower leg c/t As it went to his shoulder he bolted a few strides, then realized I hadn't clicked. It was comical watching him decide. He came back to me allowed me to spray his shoulder and got his reward. Since then he's been a delight to spray and sometimes he'll get a treat. We didn't get into a fight, I let him decide and his belly won out. Had it turned into a struggle it likely would have remained a struggle.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Meatos, well said. When I began to learn NH I began to question whether my horse was doing something because of fear of repercussion which could be mistaken as respect. When I introduced clicker training to a fearful horse there began a profound change in him which tied in to the way I altered my training and gave him a say in the matter. When I began to teach him to stand for spraying, he was at liberty. He got a treat so he'd know I had them. I sprayed the ground beside me,and because he stood still, c/t. The next was on his lower leg c/t As it went to his shoulder he bolted a few strides, then realized I hadn't clicked. It was comical watching him decide. He came back to me allowed me to spray his shoulder and got his reward. Since then he's been a delight to spray and sometimes he'll get a treat. We didn't get into a fight, I let him decide and his belly won out. Had it turned into a struggle it likely would have remained a struggle.


Amazing example. And "struggle" is a great word - in all the training I do, I try to take the struggle element out of it. I don't want to struggle, and certainly not with an animal that could bite me, kick me, or kill me. I will lose. That's just nature. Every animal has its limits and nobody is immune, no matter how good of a trainer you are. For training to be most effective, both the animal and trainer have to be enjoying the work being done. 

Oftentimes when we struggle to suppress behaviours, bad behaviours pop up in other areas, or the suppressed behaviour will come back in full force once the animal has had it with being pushed too far. I don't ever want that to happen in any animal I work with. Fear of repercussion is often misinterpreted as respect - you hit the nail on the head!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Suppose teaching my horse to play 'fetch' is just a little canine...:lol:


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Haha I suppose it is, but could also come to serious good use! Imagine being on a trail and you drop your crop? your horse could get it for you! well... maybe not your crop... but maybe your hat xD


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Meatos said:


> Only in extreme cases would I use negative reinforcement (very rare) or positive punishment (almost never).


Aha! You sound like one of those elusive (nearly) purists! I'm interested to know how you teach the basic cues then, if not with pressure/release? Eg. if you don't teach the horse to yield to pressure from rein, leg, seat, etc, how do you direct him?


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh no, I'm not a purist (I believe in calling an animal on their sh*t, but only after ruling out all other possibilities like pain, fear, etc.) and I don't have nearly enough experience with horses to say how I would go about doing those things. I'm a dog trainer, not a horse trainer - we don't ride dogs!  

But those aren't really the types of things I'm thinking of when I talk about struggling with your horse in order to gain their respect. I'm saying they have brains that are capable in working in other ways than avoiding pressure. If they can teach marine mammals to do flips in the air on cue using a clicker (you can't apply pressure to these animals), you can teach a horse how to be directed in a similar way.

I'm just saying that it CAN be done, and IS being done by some great trainers out there. My mentor is setting me up with one of his friends, who used to train dogs but now trains horses. I'm really excited to learn from her, and shall report back!

I'm passionate about this because I've seen firsthand what predominantly negative reinforcement/positive punishment can do to an animal. Depending on the temperament, these things might work well and you'll never have a problem. But then there are temperaments that aren't so forgiving and you can really ruin them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Meatos said:


> Oh no, I'm not a purist


I said 'nearly'!:wink: I meant re the not using negative reinforcement except in extremes. 



> have brains that are capable in working in other ways than avoiding pressure.


Yes, most certainly & the way I see it, if you have all the time in the world & unlimited patience, I know you can teach an animal virtually anything with pure shaping, but I'm interested to hear from people that do this(?), about specifics. Also time. For eg. what steps & how long would it typically take to teach a horse to sidepass without using negative reinforcement.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

If you're interested, I found some really cool clicker training videos for horses on Karen Pryor's website (Karen Pryor Clickertraining | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training). I was reading one description and apparently they taught a pony to be a guide for his blind owner. That is pretty **** cool.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Meatos said:


> I can't remember if I've posted on this thread already, but I know I've talked about clicker training on other threads and will get up on my soapbox to talk about it here. Sorry for being so repetitive, but this is something I'm passionate about and I hate seeing it go misunderstood to the point of being completely stomped on.
> 
> The basic truth is that ALL ANIMALS LEARN THINGS THE SAME WAY. THIS IS A FACT. YES, EVEN YOUR HORSE LEARNS THINGS THIS WAY. NO ANIMAL (NOT EVEN YOUR HORSE) IS ABSOLVED OF THE LEARNING THEORY.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Oh for horse people to talk about learning theory as much as they do about respect and being the herd leader. Dolphin trainers never seem to worry their position in the dolphin pack they are but they can get dolphins to do amazing things from 50 metres away with nothing but a clicker and bit of fish.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah re guide horses for the blind, I forget the name of the original pony, but it became a hit & they've since trained many little horses to be aides.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

corymbia said:


> Dolphin trainers never seem to worry their position in the dolphin pack


I do think that with regard to horses, it is important to be seen as a *leader*, for them to trust you enough in 'scary' situations, but I couldn't give a hoot personally about *dominance* - I don't really care if the horse sees it as me training them or they think they're training me to give them treats, so long as they perform the required behaviour with a good attitude!



> The basic truth is that ALL ANIMALS LEARN THINGS THE SAME WAY. THIS IS A FACT. YES, EVEN YOUR HORSE LEARNS THINGS THIS WAY. NO ANIMAL (NOT EVEN YOUR HORSE) IS ABSOLVED OF THE LEARNING THEORY.


Just needed to repeat that because it cannot be understated!:wink:


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

Dolphins, sea lions and whales are all social animals and we never did worry or even discuss our place in their social dynamics. We developed relationships built on mutual trust and respect so there was never a worry about having to assert our place and vice versa.


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