# Clinton Anderson uses Rollkur :(



## Speed Racer

Since he's a Western rider and doesn't ride dressage, I'm not sure how he could be using rollkur. :think:

I don't know anything about shock collars or what he does or doesn't promote, since I don't 'do' any of the NH gurus.


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## gigem88

Which series is it?


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## gypsygirl

can you give an example of how he uses rollkur please ?


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## bubba13

*Clinton Anderson - WEG*

I watched Clinton Anderson warming his horse up before a demonstration. I was absolutely appalled by his riding: it was a very hot day (at least 85 degrees), he rode his horse in an extreme rollkur frame and cantered his horse for about 40 minutes without giving it a break.
This is not horsemanship. This is cruelty.





























I really can't stand the way he rides. His horses are terrified of contact.


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## tinyliny

I have to somewhat agree. There is often a feeling of harshness and abruptness in how he works horses. Not my cup of tea. I guess I should not say much , seeing as how I really don't know that much of his methods. Have only watched a few videos but got that impression right away.


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## MyBoyPuck

Clinton's horses are frequently over bent. I'm not fond of it either. While I like most of his ground schooling work, I do not agree with his stye of under saddle training.


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## AlexS

I believe he suggests a shock collar from cribbing.


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## tinyliny

The thing is, ground work should very directly relate to mounted work. It should be a preperation.

For example; When working a horse in the round pen, most NH will try to disenagage the hind quarters by bending aroudn and putting pressure on it so that the horse swings aroudn like a gate, heavy on his fore legs and with the hind end going around like a whiplash. Would you want to ride a turn like that?
Ok for emergency one rein stop, but not what I want if I am preparing for a turn or roll back.
My trainer works such that when she is asking the horse to come to a stop or turn around and go the other direction that the horse look in, bend nose in, follow nose in , think "around" the turn with their head, prepare body by pausing and bringing weight BACK over the hind a bit, then reaching around with the front legs . Totally different. That is the kind of turn you want to ride, so that is the kind of turn you strive for in ground work.


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## bubba13

You know, tiny, I've never actually sat down and thought about that, but you're absolutely right on the groundwork-to-riding thing. Just sort of seems like common sense, doesn't it? Yet I guess a lot of people don't follow through that way...


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## kevinshorses

I don't think you can call that rollkur. The horses mouth is closed and there is no pressure on the reins or on the horses mouth. I don't like how the horse is so over bent but I'm not a reiner. As far as loping his horse for 40 whole minutes without a rest being cruel, I must be the horse worlds version of Hitler because I ride my horses on hot or cold or rainy days for several hours without much of a break. They are conditioned and fed well (as I'm sure Clintons are ) but they have a job to do and we often can't stop until it is done.

Perhaps if you are looking at Mindy and seeing the kind of horse you would like to have you shouldn't be so quick to critisize how she came to be that horse.


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## franknbeans

kevinshorses said:


> I don't think you can call that rollkur. The horses mouth is closed and there is no pressure on the reins or on the horses mouth. I don't like how the horse is so over bent but I'm not a reiner. As far as loping his horse for 40 whole minutes without a rest being cruel, I must be the horse worlds version of Hitler because I ride my horses on hot or cold or rainy days for several hours without much of a break. They are conditioned and fed well (as I'm sure Clintons are ) but they have a job to do and we often can't stop until it is done.
> 
> Perhaps if you are looking at Mindy and seeing the kind of horse you would like to have you shouldn't be so quick to critisize how she came to be that horse.


Well said Kevin. Look at the last picture especially. The reins are hanging. I agree the horse is overbent, but my reining knowledge is limited, since I am a beginner. I have seen very similar stuff from several reining trainers, tho, and the horses learn to work on a totally loose rein, with extremely subtle cues. Very similar to dressage, without the contact. It really IS awesome when the horse is finished. Yeah-they work, but as Kevin said-they are used to it. That is what they do, every day, and that is their job. Just like some people have to work for a living too, and do manual labor. Is it cruel? No.


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## gigem88

Yes, very well said Kevin!


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## Alwaysbehind

Great post, Kevin.

And if the OP wants to complain about horses looking over flexed in a photo why is she not complaining about franknbeans avatar photo? 
(I have no issue with the photo, Frank, just pointing out that any photo can look like an over flexed horse.)


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## Equilove

Err, isn't hyperflexion typically the horse's chin "strapped" to its chest? Looks like in a few of the photos (can't see them all - work internet blocks some websites) he's flexing the horse's head laterally - these are exercises I do with my horse to get her softened up and yielding. A tip of the nose to the outside, breaking at the poll, etc. I can't see them all so I can't judge accurately, I suppose.

Also I know this is irrelevant, but doesn't this look like the horse is doing that infamous Hammertime dance? 










Clinton Anderson... such a menace! (Hehe)


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## gigem88

Hahaha, it does!!


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## Allison Finch

Speed Racer said:


> Since he's a Western rider and doesn't ride dressage, I'm not sure how he could be using rollkur. :think:
> 
> I don't know anything about shock collars or what he does or doesn't promote, since I don't 'do' any of the NH gurus.


 
Yup, rollkur is just the "Dressage" term for a practice being used by most disciplines, these days. There was a big stink in the reining world with a world class trainer using it roughly in a European warm-up ring. WP trainers are using it a lot, too. It is simply pulling the horse's head into the chest to "stretch" the horse.





 
Kevin, many horses don't gape when pulled behind the vertical. 

http://sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

SAD!!


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## Alwaysbehind

Equilove said:


> Err, isn't hyperflexion typically the horse's chin "strapped" to its chest? Looks like in a few of the photos (can't see them all - work internet blocks some websites) he's flexing the horse's head laterally - these are exercises I do with my horse to get her softened up and yielding. A tip of the nose to the outside, breaking at the poll, etc. I can't see them all so I can't judge accurately, I suppose.


That is what I am seeing in these photos too. That is why I referenced Frank's photo, as that is what it looks like is going on there too.

It is funny the things people can spread when they want to simply hate a person.


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## Allison Finch

Equi,

Although some people have "strapped" a horse's head to the chest through a drawing device while longing, it is usually done while riding. The rider simply cranks back on the reins, pulling the horse's head into the chest.


BTW, Franks...isn't your horse backing up? I see no rollkur there. The horse is not being forced FORWARD with his head cranked in.


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## Alwaysbehind

Allison Finch said:


> Equi,
> 
> Although some people have "strapped" a horse's head to the chest through a drawing device while longing, it is usually done while riding. The rider simply cranks back on the reins, pulling the horse's head into the chest.
> 
> 
> BTW, Franks...isn't your horse backing up? I see no rollkur there. The horse is not being forced FORWARD with his head cranked in.


The photo of CA it looks to me like he is bending the horse left and right, not just cranking his nose into his chest.

The point with mentioning Frank's photo is that any photo can look like that. Not that I think that is what is going on there.


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## mls

Alwaysbehind said:


> It is funny the things people can spread when they want to simply hate a person.


Exactly.

As has been said many times, if we all had a camera following us around day in and day out, there ARE going to be things that upset others.


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## Doe

Tiny has it correct.

CA is extremely aggressive with all horses I have seen him work with. It's hidden behind 'being the alpha mare' which IMO is just rubbish perpetuated by people who know no better, and don't truly wish to become horsemen.

CA is a trainer not a horseman. Not knocking trainers, it's a job, but I wish some of them would not pretend about what or who they are. To trainers like CA, the end justifies the means. Mindy is a perfect example of that. A robot. No soul. No expression. No spirit, No life. Buy a motorbike if want a 'functional vehicle' . I see nothing to admire, except a small personality and a big ego.

One question for these type of trainers. When aggression and oppression fails , what do you do? When you have to work with one of the 0.001% of horses that cannot be overpowered or broken. The horse that commits to the fight not flight?
Answer? They do not have one.............


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## Equilove

Allison Finch said:


> Equi,
> 
> Although some people have "strapped" a horse's head to the chest through a drawing device while longing, it is usually done while riding. The rider simply cranks back on the reins, pulling the horse's head into the chest.


I didn't mean the horse's head was literally strapped down with a tie or device, it was just the only word I could think of to describe that the horse was forcably keeping its head tucked to its chest. Hence the quotes, hehe. I mean, if the reins/rider's hands are keeping the horse behind the bit with such exaggeration and it cannot move, I would nearly consider it "strapped" down.


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## kevinshorses

Doe said:


> One question for these type of trainers. When aggression and oppression fails , what do you do? When you have to work with one of the 0.001% of horses that cannot be overpowered or broken. The horse that commits to the fight not flight?
> Answer? They do not have one.............


Answer... I get rid of them and move on. 99.99% of horses respond quite well to my brand of "cruelty" and make good responsible mounts. I don't have any desire to drink your brand of cool-aid. If I want my horse to follow me, I'll put a halter on it rather than dance around with a stick. Rather than spew vitriol why don't you enter the real world where horses have jobs to do besides making you feel superior to the " ignorant masses"?


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## .Delete.

My comment is to shock collars. 

I used to have a chronic cribber, to the point where he would rather crib then eat. When it gets to the point where you cannot control it, I'd rather shock him then him colic or destroy his teeth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

Great post, Kevin!


Shock collars are just an electrostatic shock. Like the fencer, like dog collars. Why are people so up in arms about using them on a 1200lb animal?


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## gigem88

You have good posts and to the point, Kevin! 

On a side note, what are some of y'alls thoughts on Buck Brannaman and his methods? Do they compare with Clinton Anderson's?


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## Equilove

Alwaysbehind said:


> Great post, Kevin!
> 
> 
> Shock collars are just an electrostatic shock. Like the fencer, like dog collars. Why are people so up in arms about using them on a 1200lb animal?


The most it will hurt is the horse's feelings. Luckily, those regenerate at about 10000x the speed of any other animal's. ;-)


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## ShutUpJoe

I'm a supporter of shock collars. Without them our dog would be road kill. Also if you don't like shock collars..what about electric fences?


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## kevinshorses

I have an even better suggestion. If you don't like shock collars DON'T USE THEM!!


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## Alwaysbehind

Stop with all that logic.....


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## A knack for horses

kevinshorses said:


> As far as loping his horse for 40 whole minutes without a rest being cruel, I must be the horse worlds version of Hitler because I ride my horses on hot or cold or rainy days for several hours without much of a break. They are conditioned and fed well (as I'm sure Clintons are ) but they have a job to do and we often can't stop until it is done.


Off topic, but that is just cruel to work a horse for hours on end with no break, especially if the work is laborous or demanding on the horse. And the fact people do laborous work for a living is no justification. People get breaks. They get water when they need it. They get a lunch break. There are laws against how long they can be worked. Why is that? Because its cruel to force people to work 15 hour shifts doing laborous jobs and not giving them breaks.
Do horses get to do that? No, because we force them to work. We tell them when to lope and we tell them when to rest. We tell them when the day begins and when it ends. So I believe its unbelieveably cruel when a rider doesn't take into account they are working with a living creature that needs breaks. 
I'm no pansy that thinks a horse needs a half hour break for every hour of work. But does it really slow you down that much if you let your horse take a 15 minute break without you on his/her back every few hours or so? 

As for the OP, I agree with a previous poster that it looks more like lateral flexion than rolkur. I use it to get a horse to loosen up and to become more responsive to me. There's a theory that if you have the head of the horse, you have the whole animal. Lateral flexion helps supple the neck muscles and gets the horse to focus on what you are asking him to do. Once the horse starts giving to the pressure without fight and is soft in the neck, I stop.


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## Equilove

ShutUpJoe said:


> I'm a supporter of shock collars. Without them our dog would be road kill. Also if you don't like shock collars..what about electric fences?





kevinshorses said:


> I have an even better suggestion. If you don't like shock collars DON'T USE THEM!!





Alwaysbehind said:


> Stop with all that logic.....


:lol: I'm being blown away too, AB.


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## Doe

kevinshorses said:


> Answer... I get rid of them and move on. 99.99% of horses respond quite well to my brand of "cruelty" and make good responsible mounts. I don't have any desire to drink your brand of cool-aid. If I want my horse to follow me, I'll put a halter on it rather than dance around with a stick. Rather than spew vitriol why don't you enter the real world where horses have jobs to do besides making you feel superior to the " ignorant masses"?


Kevin

Thats your choice. I'd do not feel superior to anyone. However, I do take exception to people who choose to make their fortune by selling DVDs under a false pretence of what it represents. It lacks integrity or honesty.

I came into horses like many people, not to use them to make money, but because I loved their grace, spirit, power and passion. I want to lead a horse, not overpower it. I want to keep it's personality and spirit, yet gain it's respect. I also offer it respect which is so missing with these 'trainers'.

I guess it comes down to what the horse represents to each of us. 'Livestock' and a means to an end, or the ends itself.


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## kevinshorses

A knack for horses said:


> Off topic, but that is just cruel to work a horse for hours on end with no break, especially if the work is laborous or demanding on the horse. And the fact people do laborous work for a living is no justification. People get breaks. They get water when they need it. They get a lunch break. There are laws against how long they can be worked. Why is that? Because its cruel to force people to work 15 hour shifts doing laborous jobs and not giving them breaks.
> I'm no pansy that thinks a horse needs a half hour break for every hour of work. But does it really slow you down that much if you let your horse take a 15 minute break without you on his/her back every few hours or so?


I guess my bosses are cruel too. I work right along with the horse. We get water when water is available and when I get the cows where they are supposed to be then we both take a break but stopping before we are done for more than a quick breather would allow the cattle to scatter and negate all the previous work. My point was to point out that horses can be ridden hard for 40 whole minutes without it being cruel.


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## bubba13

No, Clinton isn't actively pulling on his horses all the time, but they are frequently overbent and behind the vertical all the same. I just couldn't find good pictures to illustrate that, as most of the ones on Google images are him standing beside a horse or doing groundwork. You have to ask why his horses are so afraid of contact (watch a video of him ride--if he so much as lifts the reins lightly, the horse immediately tucks its nose to its chest, which is excessive and in my book not remotely desirable, as I want a horse who will take contact with the reins and stay in my hand).

Shock collars...only as an absolute last-ditch chance to correct a really bad behavior. Horses are extremely sensitive to electric shock--far moreso than humans, dogs, or cattle--so even a tiny pulse is felt strongly by them. That's why pansy little string electric fences will hold a horse in, but not a cow or a dog.


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## nrhareiner

kevinshorses said:


> Answer... I get rid of them and move on. 99.99% of horses respond quite well to my brand of "cruelty" and make good responsible mounts. I don't have any desire to drink your brand of cool-aid. If I want my horse to follow me, I'll put a halter on it rather than dance around with a stick. Rather than spew vitriol why don't you enter the real world where horses have jobs to do besides making you feel superior to the " ignorant masses"?



Oh you said it so well. Thanks Kevin.

I also do not see anything overly wrong with what he is doing. I agree that his horses tend to be over flexed but past that what he is doing has is sound in principle.


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> I came into horses like many people, not to use them to make money, but because I loved their grace, spirit, power and passion. I want to lead a horse, not overpower it. I want to keep it's personality and spirit, yet gain it's respect. I also offer it respect which is so missing with these 'trainers'.


I am not sure why people seem to think that a light, responsive horse that is well trained does not have grace, spirit, power, and passion. I know that will be news to all my horses. They have all that and are light, responsive and quick. They love their job to the point that they run up to the gate when they see the tack come out. They do not even do that as fast at dinner time.


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## farmpony84

There is a really, REALLY big trainer that shows at the series I attend and I was so excited when I found out he was there. He has MULTIPLE world championships under his belt AND those of his students. Big name, BIG BIG BIG.

One of the things I really like to do is watch the warm-up. I ride and I watch or I just watch because that is where I really learn A LOT. I'll see people doing things and watch what happens and it's awesome. I think it's great for anyone to spend time watching a warm up.

Anway there was a guy on the cutest most awesomist horse ever and he was SO rough. SO ROUGH. I wanted to cry, that rough. I can usually lock my emotions away when watching other people handle their horses because it's not my business but this guy was awful. Turns out, he is that super big name trainer.

I'm not saying they ALL do it. But I think that's part of how they get that big. It's not the means that matters but the end result.....


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## farmpony84

kevinshorses said:


> Answer... I get rid of them and move on. 99.99% of horses respond quite well to my brand of "cruelty" and make good responsible mounts. I don't have any desire to drink your brand of cool-aid. If I want my horse to follow me, I'll put a halter on it rather than dance around with a stick. Rather than spew vitriol why don't you enter the real world where horses have jobs to do besides making you feel superior to the " ignorant masses"?


That brought tears to my eyes. Can I frame it?


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## Beauseant

Doe said:


> I came into horses like many people, not to use them to make money, but because I loved their grace, spirit, power and passion. I want to lead a horse, not overpower it. I want to keep it's personality and spirit, yet gain it's respect. I also offer it respect which is so missing with these 'trainers'.
> 
> I guess it comes down to what the horse represents to each of us. 'Livestock' and a means to an end, or the ends itself.


This!!:clap:

Very nicely said!


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## To ride the sky

Speed Racer said:


> Since he's a Western rider and doesn't ride dressage, I'm not sure how he could be using rollkur. :think:
> :shock:
> Rollkur isn't limited to dressage! It is sustained hyperflexion which is unfortunately practiced in every disipline of riding. Although it is more prevalent in dressage (Anky and other LDR endorsers) it can be seen in western for sure! Have you seen Craig Schmersal or many of the other very 'well respected' reiners who use rollkur in alot of their clinics and when warming up their horses for championship events. Unfortunately Clinton Anderson is another one and on his DVD he was instruction other to do so! It makes me sick! that poor horse!


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## bsms

kevinshorses said:


> I guess my bosses are cruel too. I work right along with the horse. We get water when water is available and when I get the cows where they are supposed to be then we both take a break but stopping before we are done for more than a quick breather would allow the cattle to scatter and negate all the previous work. My point was to point out that horses can be ridden hard for 40 whole minutes without it being cruel.


I almost hate to mention what happens to soldiers...by the time I did a tour in Afghanistan, I was a 49 year old Lt Col in bifocals. No one wanted me beyond the fence much, but the little I did...well, it didn't break my 'spirit', but carrying 50% of my body weight around in 100 deg heat, sleeves, elbow pads, SAPI plates, etc gave me a good idea of why most infantry soldiers are 20 and not 49! And to be honest, it helped me understand WHY those 20 year olds didn't want me around. I was the weak link - a 49 year old aviator in a 20 year old infantryman's job.

I also remember a job I had in my 20s, clearing pinion pine & juniper from some slopes in the Wasatch Mtns. You get some breaks clear-cutting brush, but not many and not long. I was taking home $18.90 a day, and expected to earn it. My boss apparently had a different idea about how much work equaled 'earning it' than I did, but I learned to do the job regardless. I think most of us who have done manual labor can remember the feeling when your gut is empty, your mouth dry, your arms are trembling with exhaustion, and there is still an hour to go.

I think the experience is good for man and beast alike. No one gives maximum effort unless pushed. And until you've been pushed hard, you don't know what you are capable of - and I think that includes horses. You do a horse no favors by letting it do what it wants, and quit when it gets hard.


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## gigem88

Great post bsms! And THANK YOU for serving in the military.


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## To ride the sky

Alwaysbehind said:


> Great post, Kevin.
> 
> And if the OP wants to complain about horses looking over flexed in a photo why is she not complaining about franknbeans avatar photo?
> (I have no issue with the photo, Frank, just pointing out that any photo can look like an over flexed horse.)


 
Ok so re: The avatar photo doesn't bother me because I'm assuming the best of you and hoping that that happens to be a photo taken when you happen to be asking your horse to back up for example or some movement which requires them to MOMENTARILY go behind the verticle. If however I had video footage of you riding your horse behind the verticle for 20 mins straight I would certainly have something to say about that! In CA's case not only is he practicing this but he is PROMOTING IT just as ANKY does in clinics and DVD and PROFITING from pain of hundreds of horse who's owner's follow along naively not applying enough critical thinking to realize there is something wrong with it just like you folks aparently :shock:?

I'm honestly shocked to hear that several of you folks think this is ok?
This makes me sad for so many horse's out there! Have you not learned about hyperflexion and what it can do to horse's necks, spines, hocks, how it can form extra bony growth at the poll, restrict breathing? It also limits the horse's vision and puts the horse onto the forehand and making them more likely to trip! If you are still in the dark please look up the World Cup Blue Tongue video in youtube where you will witness one of the most grotesc examples of opression I have ever seen especially once he realizes that there is no bloodflow to his horse's tongue and it is hanging like a piece of raw steak and he decides to keep on forcing the horse to canter on! I fail to understand why anyone would choose to do this to their horse unless they are so talentless this is they only way they can achieve anything that at least to them resembles suppleness. This IS NOT NECESSARY and if you think it is you should learn how to ride properly! Real horseman can accomplish anything with their horse with lightness and the horse's nose never behind the vertical for more than a couple of seconds! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Why are we still saying this is ok when even the FEI is saying it's not ok? Which is a long time coming and still isn't good enough but at least THEY are starting to open their eyes!!! What about you????!!!


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## Spastic_Dove

Just wanted to address the point about it being cruel to work a horse. 

If you take your pasture puff out of the field and ask him to gallop around all day that is cruel. 

If your horse is a working horse that is CONDITIONED well and FIT for his job, I do not believe it is cruel. Overwork and exhaustion comes a lot faster for a backyard pet than it does an athlete.


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## To ride the sky

kevinshorses said:


> Answer... I get rid of them and move on. 99.99% of horses respond quite well to my brand of "cruelty" and make good responsible mounts. I don't have any desire to drink your brand of cool-aid. If I want my horse to follow me, I'll put a halter on it rather than dance around with a stick. Rather than spew vitriol why don't you enter the real world where horses have jobs to do besides making you feel superior to the " ignorant masses"?


Speaking of ignorant if this is how you truly see the world and treat your horses I feel sorry for you and your horses. It's interesting that people critize those of us who are able to have our horses follow us at liberty...I don't see how that could offend anyone or be cruel for a horse so why the need to critisize it? Must be ignorance or jealousy


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## bsms

Anyone who spends time worrying about how to train "one of the 0.001% of horses that cannot be overpowered or broken" while criticizing the techniques that work with the other 99.999% of horses (that would be 99,999 out of 100,000) has more time than I do for worrying...

If I had a 1 in 100,000 horse that couldn't be trained, I'd probably shoot him and get a better horse from a rescue, or one of the ones being given away. Too many horses go to slaughter to worry about a psychotic horse.


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## Doe

nrhareiner said:


> I am not sure why people seem to think that a light, responsive horse that is well trained does not have grace, spirit, power, and passion. I know that will be news to all my horses. They have all that and are light, responsive and quick. They love their job to the point that they run up to the gate when they see the tack come out. They do not even do that as fast at dinner time.


Reiner. I do not know how your horses are, my comments are of the many hours I have watched CA and my observations of his horses along with some other 'trainers'.

In relation to CAs horses and similar, it comes down to a difference in what you and I see as attractive. There is no right or wrong in that. I can only say why I do not find this attractive nor something to aspire. I fact I find it sad.

These horses to me have been overtrained. Micromanaged to the ultimate degree. I do not find a horse trotting and cantering with it's head almost between it's legs graceful or powerful. Desperately fearful to raise it's head for fear of the immediate pain and pressure that will be inflicted upon it should it dare to think such a thing. The spirit has been removed from it.

The stiffness in the stifles. The lack of energy on the rebound. That does not represent power.

These animals to me look like some children that are so overpowered and dominated that they are fearful to ask a question. That cannot have fun any longer, and who usually turn the wrong way later in life. I believe in discipline and boundaries, believe me I had them too. However there are extremes, and these trainers represent the extreme. It is just as extreme as toddler beauty pageants and 8 year olds having Botox! 

As kevins horses said - get rid and move on. That's exactly it. People like CA cannot train any horse. They cannot work in harmony to find a way with any horse. Yet they sell their DvDs and pretend to be these amazing trainers. Yet in reality they can only train the submissive. The overbred marionette of a pony. The ones they discard? Other people have to mop up their discarded goods and try to bring them back to life.

So as I said it's about what each of us sees as desirable.


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## bsms

I only have one book by CA. Here is what it says:

"Do not do this exercise until all lateral resistance is gone. Most problems arise when people rush to teach Vertical Flexion before the horse is ready...

...Continue to do most of your riding on a loose rein, making sure your horse is relaxed, soft, and supple laterally...

...Don't take up too much contact - nowhere near as much as for Bending or Flexing to the Bridle..."

"Downunder Horsemanship" page 182 - near the end of the book


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## .Delete.

Trainers typically have a deadline of when stuff needs to be done. Training is business, it's how they make their living. Most of them don't have the time nor desire to "dance around it with a stick" just so it follows them without a halter knowing **** well the client is just going to halter it anyways so what's the point? That doesn't make them cruel or bad trainers just because they don't do things the way YOU do them. CA is a world renowned trainer not only because of his advertising and marketing tools but because he is an amazing trainer. He has god given talent and anyone could learn alot from him, perhaps it's not the way YOU would do things but it works for him and look where it's gotten him. 

Top trainers dont get to the top by being bad at what they do. They work hard to earn that title, having credentials to back it up. Everyone rides a little different some softer then others, some harsher then others. But whatever they are doing it's working for them. Everyone has an opinion on how you ride and what your doing. Not everyone is going to agree with you. Personally I have no problem working my horse for a good hour or two, I don't consider that abuse at all. Also I do not consider what CA is doing as abuse. 

Ofcourse there are big time bad trainers out there that use abusive methods. But I can almost gaurentee the majority are good honest hard working people. They don't care about how you trained your horse to lead without a halter or your special bond with your horsey. Like I said it's a business it's how they make a living. They train other peoples horses and they have to supply the demand of the client.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Doe

bsms said:


> Anyone who spends time worrying about how to train "one of the 0.001% of horses that cannot be overpowered or broken" while criticizing the techniques that work with the other 99.999% of horses (that would be 99,999 out of 100,000) has more time than I do for worrying...
> 
> If I had a 1 in 100,000 horse that couldn't be trained, I'd probably shoot him and get a better horse from a rescue, or one of the ones being given away. Too many horses go to slaughter to worry about a psychotic horse.


BSMS I was with you until this post. I too have served. Started in the Artillery then did my all arms with the Paras until injury left me with no option but fusion of both ankles.

I know about pushing, and I totally agree. Every time I push myself through the barriers I learn something about myself. That is the thing with horses" I constantly push myself, and learn constantly too. About my character. My weaknesses and strengths. The person I want to be.

Unfortunately horses do reflect who we are. I see a horse and I know the persons fears. I know their insecurities. You cannot lie. CA is a control freak. 

Just because a horse decides it does not want to be easily dominated, might make him unsuitable for your purpose, but it does not make it a psycho.

Like I said you and I were in the military, but we knew why we were doing it and we chose to do it. In so much of this training the horses have no choice, and no purpose. That is very different from when a horse can see a purpose, and has a job. 

What is a horseman? To me a horseman is someone who truly loves horses. Who seeks to find a way to work in harmony with them. That doesn't mean namby pampy, kissing and *** wiping. It's just recognising that so much more can come from this than from pure slavery. These horses will not offerr anything new because they are scared to. I like it when my horses trey different things, offer new things, try to guess what I am asking before I've asked it. It's fun and it's real development. CA would see that as dominance or dis-respect.

If these people like CA were really horsemen, as they claim to be, then they would relish the chance to work with horses that cannot be dominated. The chance to expand, the chance to learn. But of course they claim to know it all already. Fame and fortune is their only interest. The horse is just the victim that will allow them dream.


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## DejaVu

That doesn't surprise me at all.

He's forceful. That's simply all he is. His liberty work with Mindy looks like perfection. Almost TOO perfect. Like Mindy is terrified otherwise, so with the slightest movement, she does it.

I'm not lifting Parellis name on this, but the Parellis liberty work, looks normal. The horse isn't on cue all the time. The horse isn't always on step, and perfect. It looks REAL, and you see the horse want to go with him, and you see little mishaps here and there, because personality filled horses like to change their minds sometimes. It's more like what a relationship should be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84

I think the biggest thing here is that most of us here on this forum are simply horse owners. We take the lessons we can afford to take, we teach from our heart rather then our heads. I personally plan to own the same horse 15 or 20 years down the road. These trainers are being paid to prepare horses by a certain date. The horses they own are being trained to earn points and make money for sale. They aren't pets, they are assets. I know it seems harsh and it seems uncaring but that's part of business. These same trainers will have a horse at home that they love dearly and treat very differently then the ones in trainings. Those horses are the ones they are attached to. Not the ones they are training. (for the most part - not everyone).


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## DejaVu

Doe said:


> To trainers like CA, the end justifies the means. Mindy is a perfect example of that. A robot. No soul. No expression. No spirit, No life. Buy a motorbike if want a 'functional vehicle' . I see nothing to admire, except a small personality and a big ego.


Amen. Thats exactly what I was trying to say about Mindy during liberty work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz

I don't care if he's a great trainer and the end result works well. Being overbent to that extent is not right IMO. If it take cruelty to get to the top, I don't want to be at the top. What CA is doing in those pictures is no different than Rollkur in dressage. Sure, the reins are loose, but the neck is still overbent & the vision obstructed, etc.

As for working horses when its really hot for long periods of time:
If the horse is fit and the trainer is causing no damage to the horse/over working it, I don't see a problem. I get hot and sweaty when I go jogging in the middle of the day. I'll huff and puff, but in order to improve I have to push a little bit. Same goes for my horses.

Just about everything brought up in this thread has a very thin line between cruelty and necessity


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## .Delete.

God forbid if I ever reach my goal of becoming a big time trainer. I'd hate to see what you people would say about me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartprints62

bsms said:


> I only have one book by CA. Here is what it says:
> 
> "Do not do this exercise until all lateral resistance is gone. Most problems arise when people rush to teach Vertical Flexion before the horse is ready...
> 
> ...Continue to do most of your riding on a loose rein, making sure your horse is relaxed, soft, and supple laterally...
> 
> ...Don't take up too much contact - nowhere near as much as for Bending or Flexing to the Bridle..."
> 
> "Downunder Horsemanship" page 182 - near the end of the book


I was just looking at the same book. I don't agree with everything that CA does, because I am human and have my own opinions, but I have never thought that he was cruel or heavy handed. Every episode or dvd I have every watched of CA he STRICTLY emphasises letting the horse bend and flex to it's own comfort level depending on its own conformation. He repeatedly says that it isn't about "where" the head sits, but how soft and supple the horse is responding to cues. If the horses were only afraid of the bit or pulling, how would he be able to get them to respond bridleless and keep the same headset? 

IMO, I have never found Mindy to be afraid. She's an employee and a partner to CA. Also, I agree with everything kevin and reiner have said as well as, (sorry I can't remember) whoever said that we simply have a difference of opinion between people with a business in horses or working horses vs. people with horses for personal enjoyment. There is a HUGE difference in training, ideas, opinions, treatment, .... the list goes on. It's just like parenting, NO one does it just the same.


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## To ride the sky

Doe said:


> What is a horseman? To me a horseman is someone who truly loves horses. Who seeks to find a way to work in harmony with them. That doesn't mean namby pampy, kissing and *** wiping. It's just recognising that so much more can come from this than from pure slavery. These horses will not offerr anything new because they are scared to. I like it when my horses trey different things, offer new things, try to guess what I am asking before I've asked it. It's fun and it's real development. CA would see that as dominance or dis-respect.
> 
> If these people like CA were really horsemen, as they claim to be, then they would relish the chance to work with horses that cannot be dominated. The chance to expand, the chance to learn. But of course they claim to know it all already. Fame and fortune is their only interest. The horse is just the victim that will allow them dream.


I couldn't have said it better myself!!!


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## To ride the sky

Eliz said:


> I don't care if he's a great trainer and the end result works well. Being overbent to that extent is not right IMO. If it take cruelty to get to the top, I don't want to be at the top. What CA is doing in those pictures is no different than Rollkur in dressage. Sure, the reins are loose, but the neck is still overbent & the vision obstructed, etc.


Again I couldn't agree more!!!


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## Allison Finch

Eliz said:


> I don't care if he's a great trainer and the end result works well. Being overbent to that extent is not right IMO. If it take cruelty to get to the top, I don't want to be at the top. What CA is doing in those pictures is no different than Rollkur in dressage.* Sure, the reins are loose, but the neck is still overbent* & the vision obstructed, etc.
> 
> As for working horses when its really hot for long periods of time:
> If the horse is fit and the trainer is causing no damage to the horse/over working it, I don't see a problem. I get hot and sweaty when I go jogging in the middle of the day. I'll huff and puff, but in order to improve I have to push a little bit. Same goes for my horses.
> 
> Just about everything brought up in this thread has a very thin line between cruelty and necessity


Only one photo, if I remember correctly, showed slack reins. They rest were VERY tightly held. The very definition of "rollkur" to me.


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## pintophile

farmpony84 said:


> I think the biggest thing here is that most of us here on this forum are simply horse owners. We take the lessons we can afford to take, we teach from our heart rather then our heads. I personally plan to own the same horse 15 or 20 years down the road. These trainers are being paid to prepare horses by a certain date. The horses they own are being trained to earn points and make money for sale. They aren't pets, they are assets. I know it seems harsh and it seems uncaring but that's part of business. These same trainers will have a horse at home that they love dearly and treat very differently then the ones in trainings. Those horses are the ones they are attached to. Not the ones they are training. (for the most part - not everyone).


:clap: Thank you. Perfectly said.


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## To ride the sky

heartprints62 said:


> I agree with everything kevin and reiner have said...So you would shoot a horse because it doesn't accept it's subserviant position with no questions asked? Then I'm disgusted by you too! I thought horses were supposed to have brains and not be mindless robots!


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## .Delete.

To ride the sky said:


> heartprints62 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with everything kevin and reiner have said...So you would shoot a horse because it doesn't accept it's subserviant position with no questions asked? Then I'm disgusted by you too! I thought horses were supposed to have brains and not be mindless robots!
> 
> 
> 
> I feel that your clearly over reacting. Just because a horse is extremely well behaved, light, and responsive does not mean it's a mindless robot. If I stumbled upon a horse that was not trainable or responsive to my techniques hell ya I'm gun a either shoot it or get rid of it. When your a trainer * horses like that are nothing but a waste of time and money[\b] it is a business for christ sake. Get over yourself
> Posted via Mobile Device*
Click to expand...


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## gigem88

I knew a high level dressage lady that did lay her horse to rest. He was so damaged psycologically it was best for the animal. And no, she was the one who did it to the horse. She bought him in hopes of giving him a chance at a better life. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. So there are horses out there (thru no fault of their own) that can't be saved; therefore, the humane thing is to put them down.


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## To ride the sky

So to Kevin I have a job proposition for you! 
It's a great position! 
You will be carrying a 50 lb backpack in the hot sun holding your head to your chest (I'll gladly hold your head to your chest for you) nd you'll wear blinders so you can only see your feet and you will feel an increasing shortness of breath but don’t worry cause if you can’t stay upright I’ll just jab you in the ribs until you find a way to keep going. And if your body does eventually give out I’ll just ‘get rid of you’ and get another man who has a better ability to breath with his airways blocked. And yes you have to trust that I’m sending you in the right direction even though you can’t see properly..yes that’s right trust me the person who cares enough about you to do this to you day in and day out. It’s quite a good job really considering I’ll pay you in carrots and oatmeal and some salad from time to time if you are extra subserviant. No complaining and no imput allowed or more jabbing you in the ribs and maybe a swift kick to the vital organs. The job doesn’t come with disability insurance but again if you hurt yourself on the job that’s alright I’ll just ‘get rid of you’ and find another man for the job. 

What do ya think Kevin shall we sign you up???


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## pintophile

To ride the sky said:


> So to Kevin I have a job proposition for you!
> It's a great position!
> You will be carrying a 50 lb backpack in the hot sun holding your head to your chest (I'll gladly hold your head to your chest for you) nd you'll wear blinders so you can only see your feet and you will feel an increasing shortness of breath but don’t worry cause if you can’t stay upright I’ll just jab you in the ribs until you find a way to keep going. And if your body does eventually give out I’ll just ‘get rid of you’ and get another man who has a better ability to breath with his airways blocked. And yes you have to trust that I’m sending you in the right direction even though you can’t see properly..yes that’s right trust me the person who cares enough about you to do this to you day in and day out. It’s quite a good job really considering I’ll pay you in carrots and oatmeal and some salad from time to time if you are extra subserviant. No complaining and no imput allowed or more jabbing you in the ribs and maybe a swift kick to the vital organs. The job doesn’t come with disability insurance but again if you hurt yourself on the job that’s alright I’ll just ‘get rid of you’ and find another man for the job.
> 
> What do ya think Kevin shall we sign you up???


So you're suggesting that not only does Kevin ONLY feed his horses carrots, salad and oatmeal infrequently from time to time (and only if they are extra subservient), but that he straps his horses' heads to their chests, puts blinders on them and not only does he swiftly kick them in the vital organs, but he also doesn't give them DISABILITY INSURANCE?

THE HORROR!


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## .Delete.

^^^^^^ LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

WOW! Lots I have missed! and thanks, AB for throwing me to the wolves! JK.

Yes, my horse is backing up. Yes he is VERY soft. Such that he will look just like that totally bridleless and halterless, so it CLEARLY cannot be that he is afraid of pain, now can it?

It is clear that once again we are getting into a "no win" debate. There is the crowd whom I would personally consider to be the more common sense, good horsemen types, like Kevin, who can most likely train a pretty good mount! Can anyone win with every single thing they do-NO! Is it smart to continue to beat yourself up because you cannot win with a particular horse? NO! Move on. If it involves getting rid of said horse, then so be it. 

Then there is what I call the "tree hugger" types. Doe, and a couple of others would fall in here. To this group-do you realize that not every horse will respond to your "butterflies and kisses" methods either? Life cannot always be .....what did you call it?......"harmony". Sorry, but life just isn;t that way.

BSMS-great analogy with the service. After being close to a SEAL, and what they go thru-horses sure have it easy, even the working ones for the most part. It IS all conditioning tho, as someone else said-my horse thinks that 1 hour a day is WAY too much....even tho he gets the other 23 to do what he pleases.

If you want to blame someone for "cruel" things done to horses, blame the show world. People have to win to make money, and to win, sometimes the horses are asked to do uncomfortable things, and yes, some are cruel. None of this will change until the judging changes. Reining, IMO, is NOT one of the cruel ones at all. Open your eyes and look around.

Reiners are the epitame of great training, IMO. They are taught to be exceedingly soft and responsive. Any horse that will spin itself into the ground basically....and stop when I lower my hand(and not the one with the reins).....pretty amazing. Cruel-NO.


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## heartprints62

To ride the sky - I don't remember ever reading anything about shooting a horse. No, I wouldn't shoot a horse unless it was dying or going to die, however that is very off topic. 

I agree with Delete, you are over reacting, severely. As far as the job you have posted for Kevin, I think you are taking everything out of context to the bounds you want to see it in. I work horses just like Kevin does, dawn til dusk some days. There are short breaks and all the horses are use to their job and physically fit for it. Being as non of us use rollkur while working our horses, why the personal attack? Is it not ok to have a difference of opinion about a riders style?


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## To ride the sky

.Delete. said:


> To ride the sky said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I stumbled upon a horse that was not trainable or responsive to my techniques hell ya I'm gun a either shoot it or get rid of it. When your a trainer * horses like that are nothing but a waste of time and money[\b] it is a business for christ sake.
> Posted via Mobile Device*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> People (I can't call you a human as you clearly lack humanity) like you are what is wrong with the world!
> Kindly refrain from posting on my thread you are NOT WELCOME on here! I sure feel sorry for you when karma comes to get ya.*
Click to expand...


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## franknbeans

If I stumbled upon a horse that was not trainable or responsive to my techniques hell ya I'm gun a either shoot it or get rid of it. When your a trainer * horses like that are nothing but a waste of time and money[\b] it is a business for christ sake. 


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-h...erson-uses-rollkur-92528/page8/#ixzz1Sm60A0BO



To ride the sky said:





.Delete. said:



People (I can't call you a human as you clearly lack humanity) like you are what is wrong with the world! 
Kindly refrain from posting on my thread you are NOT WELCOME on here! I sure feel sorry for you when karma comes to get ya.

Click to expand...

You need to get a grip. Keep in mind that this is a FORUM. It is a public place, not your private FB page.

Anyone here is allowed to disagree with you. That is the purpose of a forum.

Click to expand...

*


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## heartprints62

franknbeans said:


> *Yes, my horse is backing up. Yes he is VERY soft. Such that he will look just like that totally bridleless and halterless, so it CLEARLY cannot be that he is afraid of pain, now can it?*
> *Same point I made about CA. Thank you!*
> 
> 
> It is clear that once again we are getting into a "no win" debate. There is the crowd whom I would personally consider to be the more common sense, good horsemen types, like Kevin, who can most likely train a pretty good mount! Can anyone win with every single thing they do-NO! Is it smart to continue to beat yourself up because you cannot win with a particular horse? NO! Move on. If it involves getting rid of said horse, then so be it.
> 
> Then there is what I call the "tree hugger" types. Doe, and a couple of others would fall in here. To this group-do you realize that not every horse will respond to your "butterflies and kisses" methods either? Life cannot always be .....what did you call it?......"harmony". Sorry, but life just isn;t that way.
> 
> 
> If you want to blame someone for "cruel" things done to horses, blame the show world. People have to win to make money, and to win, sometimes the horses are asked to do uncomfortable things, and yes, some are cruel. None of this will change until the judging changes. Reining, IMO, is NOT one of the cruel ones at all. Open your eyes and look around.
> 
> *Reiners are the epitame of great training, IMO. They are taught to be exceedingly soft and responsive. Any horse that will spin itself into the ground basically....and stop when I lower my hand(and not the one with the reins).....pretty amazing. Cruel-NO*.
> *AGREEED!*


Perfectly stated franknbeans, Thank you!


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## .Delete.

I'm simply stating facts. An untrainable horse is a waste of time and money for a trainer. That's a fact, it's bad business. So you either get rid of it or put it down depending on the situation. I do believe this a forum I can comment if I wish. It's not my fault you have an very unrealistic view on this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hukassa

Just my 2 cents (if its even worth that) is that all these trainers, Clinton Anderson, Parelli, all these people were great trainers when they first started becoming well known, when they first started being recognized for how they work with horses. But then when they became very well know, started having all these TV shows and having all these little gimmicks to make them different then the competition, the stress changed them. Could you imagine how embarrassing it would be to go out into an arena with a horse _YOU_ trained and trying to teach and sell your style of training to a huge crowd of people, and have horse not listen to you? Horses, well trained or not, have times when they just want to act like a horse and it always seems like in the worst of times, and yes people understand that but these trainers are put under so much pressure and one little thing could turn there whole training think down the drain. I'm not trying to say I condone this, whether he's hyper flexing his horses or not or to rough with them or whatever, It's just if I really think about it I can understand _why_ his training has become rougher. Stress can change a person.


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## nrhareiner

Again I ask at what point and reason do you think just b/c a horse is well behaved responsive and light and well trained do you think they have no soul no mind and are robots?? They are not. They are just willing to follow a leader and *I* am their leader. It is not different then them following the lead mare in the wild. I am not teaching them to do anything. I am simply putting a cue to a behavior they already know. I want them to be light to that cue just like they are light to a fly in their back.


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## Buckcherry

> Mindy is a perfect example of that. A robot. No soul. No expression. No spirit, No life. Buy a motorbike if want a 'functional vehicle' QUOTE]
> 
> Its called respect and trust, I don't think she or any horse trained with that method is a robot. Obvious jealousy issues here.


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## To ride the sky

pintophile said:


> So you're suggesting that not only does Kevin ONLY feed his horses carrots, salad and oatmeal infrequently from time to time (and only if they are extra subservient), but that he straps his horses' heads to their chests, puts blinders on them and not only does he swiftly kick them in the vital organs, but he also doesn't give them DISABILITY INSURANCE?
> 
> THE HORROR!


Do you lack the ability to understand an analogy? Or in words you may be able to grasp have you ever heard of a metaphore or speaking figuratively? 

Carrots = carrots, salad = grass/grazing, oatmeal = oats/mash/bran/beatpulp, rollkur (which he endorsed) would be the equivalent of holding your head to your chest and putting blinders on as it greatly limits their ability to see. I'm sure they would get at minimum very harsh kick if they refused to do something he was asking of them and all of this would make them more likely to become injured, hence the disability insurance remark since they are his 'employees' after all.

My point if you still can't figure it out is that Kevin is referring to his horses as employees and yet would be getting reported by employee rights organizations if they truly were employees. And the most ironic aspect of all this is that he wouldn't sign up to work in this position so why should he give his 'employees' the choice to either take the position or be shot or 'gotten rid of' (don't even want to know what that means)

This is the most pathetic exposition of heartless horse people I have ever seen! I brought up this topic so that people could beware of CA's techniques but to be honest some of you are making CA look pretty good right now!!!:shock:

All I can say is I'm saddened to know there are so many people like this out there nevermind owning horses! Despicable!!!


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## Hukassa

^^horses are not people, you treat them like people and your going to get hurt so you can't use human analogies and metaphors pertaining to a horse and expect them to be the same thing and make sense.


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## heartprints62

Ride, the despicable part about all of this is that now you are accusing people of doing things they are not. I never once saw Kevin, or anyone else, endorse rollkur. I simply saw people disagreeing with your opinion of what is or is not considered rollkur. You have taken this completely out of context. I am the one that called the horses "employees", and I guarantee that all of my employees are happy and healthy with very few, if any, complaints. As are Kevin's, I'm sure.


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## Buckcherry

I know CA methods work and I know it's not all about beating the crap out of your horse it's about gaining respect and trust. its about making the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy. Its teaching a horse that if you behave your life will be a piece of cake. This is see nothing wrong with.

We recently bought a untrained/unhandled 2 1/2 yr old appendix QH. He was crazy and very disrespectful of our personal space and very jittery. After two weeks with a trainer who practices CA methods she had him saddled and w/t/c. He has yet to offer up any of his old behavior. 

here is the video hardly cruelty and he doesnt seem unhappy to me..


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## nrhareiner

To ride the sky said:


> Do you lack the ability to understand an analogy? Or in words you may be able to grasp have you ever heard of a metaphore or speaking figuratively?
> 
> Carrots = carrots, salad = grass/grazing, oatmeal = oats/mash/bran/beatpulp, rollkur (which he endorsed) would be the equivalent of holding your head to your chest and putting blinders on as it greatly limits their ability to see. I'm sure they would get at minimum very harsh kick if they refused to do something he was asking of them and all of this would make them more likely to become injured, hence the disability insurance remark since they are his 'employees' after all.
> 
> My point if you still can't figure it out is that Kevin is referring to his horses as employees and yet would be getting reported by employee rights organizations if they truly were employees. And the most ironic aspect of all this is that he wouldn't sign up to work in this position so why should he give his 'employees' the choice to either take the position or be shot or 'gotten rid of' (don't even want to know what that means)
> 
> This is the most pathetic exposition of heartless horse people I have ever seen! I brought up this topic so that people could beware of CA's techniques but to be honest some of you are making CA look pretty good right now!!!:shock:
> 
> All I can say is I'm saddened to know there are so many people like this out there nevermind owning horses! Despicable!!!


I think you are missing the subtle newonsese of what he is doing and why. This is not rollkur like what you see in Dressage. It is not pinning the horses noise to their chest. If you watch trainers who use this you will see that one they are not holding the horse there they are timing a release to the point that the horse learns to be light and responsive and to carry their head at the best point to achieve this. Like anything you over flex in practice so when you are doing it for real you end up just where you need to be. I want a horse to be so light then when I pick up on the reins even a 1/2 inch or less they move their head where I want it to be. I want to be able to push their rear into their nose so to speak. This way when I ask for with very little I will get exactly what I want.


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## Doe

> Then there is what I call the "tree hugger" types. Doe, and a couple of others would fall in here. To this group-do you realize that not every horse will respond to your "butterflies and kisses" methods either? Life cannot always be .....what did you call it?......"harmony". Sorry, but life just isn;t that way.


 love it!! If i doubt, if no answer or common sense apply the tree hugger argument lol

Why do insist on resorting to such pathetic derogation?

I have talked specifically about CA and his methods and horses as I have observed them. I have argued that there is a difference in what we see and consider attractive or desirable in our horses. You think it's tree hugging when I work with horses that your preferred trainers have failed with or abandoned. I realise that nothing I say will change your opinion and that's fine.

As i said it's about our perspective if you think of horses as simply livestock then anything goes. My only sadness is that horses have it the worst of all livestock. At least cows, sheep and pigs just get to live, eat, live and eat until they die for food. Many horses are not so lucky. They are subjected to pain and aggression on a daily basis until they are finally deemed useless and only then become food.

However, your argument about riding halter less is absolute rubbish. Complete tosh. Horses as I have always said can be trained to do pretty much anything. That has been consistently demonstrated through history. Their biggest weakness is their weakness of spirit. How easily they are dominated and controlled. CAs horses ride halterless because they are conditioned with pain and negative reinforcement. The fact that a horse can be ridden halter less means nothing about it's training and how it got there. It knows what happens if it questions. 

I totally understand it's a business, and it's about money. I wish that were not the case but I understand at it is. Respect to those on this forum who have been honest and stated that it is, and that they would get rid of a horse etc. 
What I take objection to is not that. It is when people like CA try to promote themselves as caring about the horse. Like this NH is a better way, like the horse is happier. Get real and drop the smokescreen. Tell it how it is.



> Its called respect and trust, I don't think she or any horse trained with that method is a robot. Obvious jealousy issues here.


Buck, no jealousy issues whatsoever. When a horse follows you even though he doesn't have to .....THAT is respect. When a horse follows out of fear for the repercussions......that is not respect that is fear and intimidation and that is how CA works, and he is undoubtedly getting worse as he goes on when you compare to his earlier work.


----------



## nrhareiner

Buckcherry said:


> I know CA methods work and I know it's not all about beating the crap out of your horse it's about gaining respect and trust. its about making the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy. Its teaching a horse that if you behave your life will be a piece of cake. This is see nothing wrong with.
> 
> We recently bought a untrained/unhandled 2 1/2 yr old appendix QH. He was crazy and very disrespectful of our personal space and very jittery. After two weeks with a trainer who practices CA methods she had him saddled and w/t/c. He has yet to offer up any of his old behavior.
> 
> here is the video hardly cruelty and he doesnt seem unhappy to me..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ys-pnKQkk&feature=mh_lolz&list=HL1311282560


Video is not working for me. Something about being blocked.


----------



## To ride the sky

.Delete. said:


> I'm simply stating facts. An untrainable horse is a waste of time and money for a trainer. That's a fact, it's bad business. So you either get rid of it or put it down depending on the situation. I do believe this a forum I can comment if I wish. It's not my fault you have an very unrealistic view on this
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or maybe it's 'untrainable' by your methods because your methods aren't perfect! Did you ever consider that you might be less than perfect? Oops guess I let the cat out the bag that you are not infact God himself! I know a trainer that put down a horse just because he wasn't responding to his brand of training it hurt his ego too much to have a horse out there breathing that he couldn't train. 

I'm sorry if you think I'm overeacting if I'm not totally on board with this type of ego driven subjugation! It just shows how insecure you are in your training abilities. Pathetic that you would make a horse suffer just because of this!


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## Buckcherry

OK hopefully this will work i had to get rid of the music for youtube


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## heartprints62

Doe said:


> However, your argument about riding halter less is absolute rubbish. Complete tosh. Horses as I have always said can be trained to do pretty much anything. That has been consistently demonstrated through history. Their biggest weakness is their weakness of spirit. How easily they are dominated and controlled. CAs horses ride halterless because they are conditioned with pain and negative reinforcement. The fact that a horse can be ridden halter less means nothing about it's training and how it got there. It knows what happens if it questions.


Although I tend to disagree with this part, CA trains with the release of pressure (aka- release of "pain") and possitive reinforcement, I can see how it would be in the eye of the beholder for this. Glass half full or half empty kind of thing. 

My point is actually in the statement "Horses as I have always said can be trained to do pretty much anything. That has been consistently demonstrated through history." I wanna know where the NH trainer is that does the Native American Indian training like you see in the movies!? Althought I doubt the Plains Indains were ever worried about headset, how did they make each horse such a willing and responsive partner with such limited devices? That is a set of skills I think we could all use in the mix.


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## tinyliny

Doe, when you quote someone, could you please include the name of the person you are quoting?


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## franknbeans

To ride the sky said:


> Or maybe it's 'untrainable' by your methods because your methods aren't perfect! Did you ever consider that you might be less than perfect? Oops guess I let the cat out the bag that you are not infact God himself! I know a trainer that put down a horse just because he wasn't responding to his brand of training it hurt his ego too much to have a horse out there breathing that he couldn't train.
> 
> I'm sorry if you think I'm overeacting if I'm not totally on board with this type of ego driven subjugation! It just shows how insecure you are in your training abilities. Pathetic that you would make a horse suffer just because of this!


 
Do you also realize that YOUR method won't work on all either? No one method works 100%. That is why we all should learn as much as we can. We need more tools to use, so to speak.

Doe-you can say what you want, and think what you want. WE will not agree. I do feel that there are some people who are, for lack of a better term, just too "wimpy" with horses for my taste. It is my opinion that the "tree-hugger", butterflies and kisses type crowd will eventually get hurt by a horse who will take advantage of that. I have an LBI, and if you think for one nanosecond that I could ever again get any forward movement out of my horse if he was so "afraid of pain" that he held his head flexed.....you would be very wrong. Oh-and he also follows me becasue he respects me, that is just not my total focus.:wink:


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## tinyliny

heartprints62 said:


> Although I tend to disagree with this part, CA trains with the release of pressure (aka- release of "pain") and possitive reinforcement, I can see how it would be in the eye of the beholder for this. Glass half full or half empty kind of thing.
> 
> My point is actually in the statement "Horses as I have always said can be trained to do pretty much anything. That has been consistently demonstrated through history." *I wanna know where the NH trainer is that does the Native American Indian training like you see in the movies!? Althought I doubt the Plains Indains were ever worried about headset, how did they make each horse such a willing and responsive partner with such limited devices? That is a set of skills I think we could all use in the* mix.


 
Actually, from what I have read , they used some techniques with ropes and such that would be considered cruel by modern standards. But once the horse understood his "helplessness", he completely gave in to the man. Also, their horses lived in natural herds so avoided many of the neurosis that modern horses develop due to being kept in isolation from a herd and in a box for days.

This would be an interesting thread in and of itself.
The trainer you refer to is Ga Wa Ni, Ponyboy.


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## Hukassa

franknbeans said:


> Do you also realize that YOUR method won't work on all either? No one method works 100%. That is why we all should learn as much as we can. We need more tools to use, so to speak.
> 
> you can say what you want, and think what you want. WE will not agree. I do feel that there are some people who are, for lack of a better term, just too "wimpy" with horses for my taste. It is my opinion that the "tree-hugger", butterflies and kisses type crowd will eventually get hurt by a horse who will take advantage of that. I have an LBI, and if you think for one nanosecond that I could ever again get any forward movement out of my horse if he was so "afraid of pain" that he held his head flexed.....you would be very wrong. Oh-and he also follows me becasue he respects me, that is just not my total focus.:wink:


Completely agree with this.


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## Allison Finch

nrhareiner said:


> I think you are missing the subtle newonsese of what he is doing and why. This is not rollkur like what you see in Dressage. It is not pinning the horses noise to their chest. If you watch trainers who use this you will see that one they are not holding the horse there they are timing a release to the point that the horse learns to be light and responsive and to carry their head at the best point to achieve this. Like anything you over flex in practice so when you are doing it for real you end up just where you need to be. I want a horse to be so light then when I pick up on the reins even a 1/2 inch or less they move their head where I want it to be. I want to be able to push their rear into their nose so to speak. This way when I ask for with very little I will get exactly what I want.


 
But, you see....that is exactly what the definition of what rollkur is supposed to do. The photos I see are just as much rollkur as any I have seen elsewhere.

BUT, I agree that everyone has a different approach to training. I can be pretty tough with certain things horses do, too. But, My main motto is;

*Violence starts where knowledge ends.*

Can I get tough? yeppers. 

Seriously, folks, it is time to take a deep breath here. Respect other people's opinions or, in lieu of that, state your opinions and leave it at that. The back and forth will change no minds and just get you frustrated.


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## kitten_Val

To ride the sky said:


> Or maybe it's 'untrainable' by your methods because your methods aren't perfect!


There is no such thing as "perfect" method. :wink: Horses (like people) are very different and approach should be different too. Good horseman is not the one using a "perfect method", but the one, who knows how to deal with given horse in given situation.


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## .Delete.

Ride. I never claimed to be perfect, nor will I ever. I still have lots and lots to learn and I will continue learning new things and expanding my abilities untill the day I quit training. If I don't get along with a horse or that certain horse isn't responding well to my ways I have no problem getting rid of it. Perhaps someone else will be able to train and work with it, I accept the fact that there are people out there who are far better riders an horseman then I will ever wish to be. But in the case of a horse being a danger to itself and people around it I would have no problem putting it down. Horses like that are a waste of time and money plain and simple. Im trying to put food on the table not throw money at a lost cause.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

kitten_Val said:


> There is no such thing as "perfect" method. :wink: Horses (like people) are very different and approach should be different too. Good horseman is not the one using a "perfect method", but the one, who knows how to deal with given horse in given situation.


 
Exactly, Kitten.:wink:


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## bsms

I was the first on this thread to mention shooting a horse - and that was in response to a 1 in 100,000 horse that couldn't be trained the way the other 99,999 could be. Yes, I'd shoot it. No one needs the most rebellious, inclined to fight, DANGEROUS horse out of 100,000 horses!

I have a gelding whose sides I almost never touch because he was spurred clear thru the skin before I got him. It took 2 years to get him comfortable, and now my youngest daughter practices riding him no stirrup, reins around the horn, guiding him with slight pressure on the sides and with seat. I'm willing to work with a horse, but not a 1/100,000 untrainable horse who wants to fight me.

I haven't ridden my mare in months. She somehow became afraid of dismounting, and since she had too much fear and too many bolts, I hired a trainer to work with me and started her training all over from the very beginning. Months later, she is MUCH calmer, and we're at the mount/dismount stage. Not fast progress, but the trainer commented that she was very high strung, fearful and dominant. 

Not a good match for a beginner rider, but my riding is improving while her training is progressing. It has reached the point where I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. I hope to be training her from her back within the month. I can see the horse she can become, but not by allowing her to do what she feels like doing. And she doesn't want that either.

Horses don't know what is best for them. They NEED us, and not just to clean corrals. They need someone else to be in charge, and that doesn't happen if they only do what they feel like doing.


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## bubba13

heartprints62 said:


> Although I tend to disagree with this part, CA trains with the release of pressure (aka- release of "pain") and possitive reinforcement, I can see how it would be in the eye of the beholder for this. Glass half full or half empty kind of thing.


Terminology and proper understanding of what is going on--this is, in fact, the very definition of negative reinforcement, not positive reinforcement. Reinforcement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



tinyliny said:


> Actually, from what I have read , they used some techniques with ropes and such that would be considered cruel by modern standards. But once the horse understood his "helplessness", he completely gave in to the man. Also, their horses lived in natural herds so avoided many of the neurosis that modern horses develop due to being kept in isolation from a herd and in a box for days.


I recently read a book detailing the original Native American "training" method. It consisted of snagging a horse however you could catch him--frequently a leg--and securing him to a stout tree for several days. If he broke his leg, well, there's dinner. If he survived, he'd be exhausted, dehydrated, and ripe for the breaking. Hop on his back, carry a club in each hand, and bludgeon him in the head on either side to determine his course of travel. 

Later, of course, they became more sophisticated, but even a rope in the mouth is hardly the gentlest tool available.


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## .Delete.

I would love to know the name of that book. That sounds like a fascinating read
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartprints62

Looks like I need to do some research on the Native American training subject. Nothing ever works out like the movies huh?? =) 

I guess in the mean time I will continue to work with my horses with what works for me, no matter WHO endorses the method. A little piece from here, a little from there, all mixed into my own pot.


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## bubba13

BITS: Their History, Use, and Misuse - by Louis Taylor, written in the '60s
It was just a very short section on the Indian stuff, but it covered the entire history of riding, just not in much depth. I followed that up with Xenophon's classic treatise on horsemanship...so interesting how things have changed.


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## heartprints62

bubba13 said:


> Terminology and proper understanding of what is going on--this is, in fact, the very definition of negative reinforcement, not positive reinforcement. Reinforcement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I still see this as glass half empty or half full. 
Taking away the pressure (negative reinforcement) is giving them comfort (positive reinforcement). 

To each his own....


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## pintophile

To ride the sky said:


> Do you lack the ability to understand an analogy? Or in words you may be able to grasp have you ever heard of a metaphore or speaking figuratively?
> 
> Carrots = carrots, salad = grass/grazing, oatmeal = oats/mash/bran/beatpulp, rollkur (which he endorsed) would be the equivalent of holding your head to your chest and putting blinders on as it greatly limits their ability to see. I'm sure they would get at minimum very harsh kick if they refused to do something he was asking of them and all of this would make them more likely to become injured, hence the disability insurance remark since they are his 'employees' after all.
> 
> My point if you still can't figure it out is that Kevin is referring to his horses as employees and yet would be getting reported by employee rights organizations if they truly were employees. And the most ironic aspect of all this is that he wouldn't sign up to work in this position so why should he give his 'employees' the choice to either take the position or be shot or 'gotten rid of' (don't even want to know what that means)
> 
> This is the most pathetic exposition of heartless horse people I have ever seen! I brought up this topic so that people could beware of CA's techniques but to be honest some of you are making CA look pretty good right now!!!:shock:
> 
> All I can say is I'm saddened to know there are so many people like this out there nevermind owning horses! Despicable!!!


Do you lack the ability to understand a joke?

Everyone is overreacting by a rather large amount.


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## bubba13

heartprints62 said:


> I still see this as glass half empty or half full.
> Taking away the pressure (negative reinforcement) is giving them comfort (positive reinforcement).
> 
> To each his own....


No, that's not correct. Negative reinforcement is the _removal_ of a stimulus when the desired reaction is achieved. It is, in a way, sort of a reward, but it does require the initial (unpleasant) pain or pressure that is then taken away. Positive reinforcement is the _addition_ of something good following the desired response. For example, giving a treat or rubbing the withers soothingly. They say that PR is actually more effective, but it's also harder to implement, and almost all horse training is based on NR (pressure and release).


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## To ride the sky

Thank you for back tracking BSMS and Delete! I really hope that you aren't as inhumane as your previous posts made you sound. Now that you have clarified you are still not who I would hire to train my horse but at least not completely soul-less. I was really glad to hear you admit that you are open to learning as we all should be! None of us have it all figured out not your idols nor mine! I never said that anyone had it all figured out! The way your were talking seemed to inferr that you thought that if a horse didn't fit into your training method that you would preffer to kill them than maybe try something else and think outside the box or learn something new and had an overinflated ego. Im glad to learn this is not the case.

It is interesting that I assumed this based on what you said and you assume that I am a 'tree hugger', stick dancer or rope waggler lol based on the fact that I don't happen to like rollkur!

I don't know why you feel the need to critisize a method that is not harming anyone and is not offensive. That is what I fail to understand so I must be dumb even though my IQ is 125 I'm bilingual and I have a University degree I must be a stupid horse butterfly kisser right? 

The truth is you know nothing about me or my background with horses and if you did you would realize that there is a middle ground between butterfly kisses and treating horses as disposible employees or casualties of faulty training methods!


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## To ride the sky

pintophile said:


> Do you lack the ability to understand a joke?
> 
> Everyone is overreacting by a rather large amount.


Not jokes about the subjugation of horses!


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## .Delete.

Ride I feel your taking this way way to personally. We are simply disagreeing, not attacking you. No need to spew about your IQ, degrees, or whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Serendipitous

By riding, or even owning, a horse, you subjugate it. Do you ever make jokes or would be offended by jokes about either of those two topics? 

What you're saying is FIGURATIVELY, that slavery is bad, with the exception of "nice" slavery, where the owners give the slaves cookies and let them wander around out of their shackles. But if the "nice" slave owners ever had their slaves do something they didn't approve of, believe you me, they crack down just as hard as the "mean" ones. So really it's the same thing in the end, just on slightly different terms that make YOU feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## To ride the sky

What I mean is to show that just because someone isn't as business minded or as cruel as CA and some of you doesn't automatically make them a tree hugger, stick dancer, rope waggler or wimpy as some ppl on this thread have said doesn't mean that we are stupid, weak or LESS EFFECTIVE trainers. In fact I, for example, am much more assertive and able to get results than alot of the horsetrainers that use more of the CA type method. 

All I was trying to say is that there is no need to critisize Doe and I and many others who choose to put our relationship with the horse ahead of profits or our egos. Personally I don't see why you would feel the need to critisize a method that isn't negatively effecting anyone (humans or horses). 

Rollkur on the otherhand does and that's the REAL POINT of this thread!


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## farmpony84

To ride the sky said:


> Rollkur on the otherhand does and that's the REAL POINT of this thread!


I thought the point was that Clinton Anderson used Rolkur, which he doesn't, although what he is doing is over flexing. Tons and tons and tons of trainers and riders do it in preparation for shows. Is it wrong? I don't know. Is it right? Depends on the rider/trainer/owners point of view I geuss. Is it abusive? Again, depends on the point of view. 

The fact of the matter is that all serious athletes put themselves some pretty strenous training activities when preparing for competitions. Sometimes I sit back and think... Crazy people! But the want to win, for different reasons. Many of them do it purely for the enjoyment of the sport. It's not a lot different and truthfully, most horses enjoy having a job and alot of times when you ride these horse, they are trying so hard to please, not out of fear or because they've been beaten down, but because they WANT to please.

Yes, some are machines, emotionless mechanical objects, but most of them have personalities.


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## To ride the sky

Serendipitous said:


> if the "nice" slave owners ever had their slaves do something they didn't approve of, believe you me, they crack down just as hard as the "mean" ones. Not necessarily! See Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling! The thing is not expecting the horse to conform to your rigid box of objectives but choosing to respect the horse as a whole and actually expecting it not to fit in your box but have it's own ideas and will. Instead of diminishing that will why not just redirect that will to what may eventually become the meshing of two wills. We don't have to be cruel to be a hear leader for our horses...just make the best decisions we can with their trust and using assertiveness when necessary without cruelty.
> 
> So really it's the same thing in the end, just on slightly different terms that make YOU feel better.
> I have to disagree with this as all I'm doing is being a heard leader just as a lead horse would be. The fact that I tell the horse what to do is the human equivalent of the lead horse directing the heard provided (as a lead horse) I do so with assertiveness instead of cruelty, their best interests at heart and consider their imput.


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## Serendipitous

To ride the sky said:


> What I mean is to show that just because someone isn't as business minded or as cruel as CA and some of you doesn't automatically make them a tree hugger, stick dancer, rope waggler or wimpy as some ppl on this thread have said doesn't mean that we are stupid, weak or LESS EFFECTIVE trainers. In fact I, for example, am much more assertive and able to get results than alot of the horsetrainers that use more of the CA type method.
> 
> All I was trying to say is that there is no need to critisize Doe and I and many others who choose to put our relationship with the horse ahead of profits or our egos. Personally I don't see why you would feel the need to critisize a method that isn't negatively effecting anyone (humans or horses).
> 
> Rollkur on the otherhand does and that's the REAL POINT of this thread!


In attempting to _show_ this, you've made gone to extremes in your examples and statements that are pretty easy to poke holes through, which is_ actually_ what is detracting (or distracting) from the point of this thread. I don't like Rolkur either, and I think whatever way method you choose with your horse is probably fine, not much I can do about it anyway. BUT, I don't like it when people are not honest with themselves about what they are doing. If you believe that horses are subjugated and that is wrong, don't ride. There are multiple levels of hypocrisy and that statement you made was on one of them for sure.


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## franknbeans

To ride the sky said:


> Thank you for back tracking BSMS and Delete! I really hope that you aren't as inhumane as your previous posts made you sound. Now that you have clarified you are still not who I would hire to train my horse but at least not completely soul-less. I was really glad to hear you admit that you are open to learning as we all should be! None of us have it all figured out not your idols nor mine! I never said that anyone had it all figured out! The way your were talking seemed to inferr that you thought that if a horse didn't fit into your training method that you would preffer to kill them than maybe try something else and think outside the box or learn something new and had an overinflated ego. Im glad to learn this is not the case.
> 
> It is interesting that I assumed this based on what you said and you assume that I am a 'tree hugger', stick dancer or rope waggler lol based on the fact that I don't happen to like rollkur!
> 
> I don't know why you feel the need to critisize a method that is not harming anyone and is not offensive. That is what I fail to understand so I must be dumb even though my IQ is 125 I'm bilingual and I have a University degree I must be a stupid horse butterfly kisser right?
> 
> The truth is you know nothing about me or my background with horses and if you did you would realize that there is a middle ground between butterfly kisses and treating horses as disposible employees or casualties of faulty training methods!


First, it was I who referred to you as a "treehugger", but, perhaps because of your high IQ, you have come up with stick dancer and rope waggler, which are even better.

Here is something to think about. A horse (and frankly many many people, myself included) could not care less how many languages you speak or what your IQ is. Many of us also have "university degrees", also. Something you are missing is that having a high IQ does not mean you have an ounce of common sense. "Common sense" is, after all, very "un" common. I have a sis in law who is extremely bright-a surgeon, top of her class, married to a neurosugeon, with twins who attended Cambridge and Oxford. Not a shaggy bunch. However, when it comes to common sense-between the 4 of them, not enough to full a thimble. Huge difference between the 2.

What you also fail to understand is that with some horses, "butterfly kisses" approach can lead to disaster. Read more posts here from people who "love their little pony" and can't figure out why he attacks them.....but would never , ever (insert **GASP**) hit little Sparky! It continues to escalate, and Sparky finds himself on a short road to a new home.....which may be in Mexico. Sad ending, when it could, most likely have been avoided with a little discipline. Which is better? You decide.


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## Allison Finch

> =heartprints62;1106525I doubt the Plains Indains were ever worried about headset, how did they make each horse such a willing and responsive partner with such limited devices? That is a set of skills I think we could all use in the mix.












This is the indian training methods as witnessed by a painter who lived with them. All you need is a rawhide rope around their front legs and throw them down. That was how they trained....back in the day.


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## To ride the sky

farmpony84 said:


> I thought the point was that Clinton Anderson used Rolkur, which he doesn't Yes, although what he is doing is over flexing Hyperflexion is Rollkur. Tons and tons and tons of trainers and riders do it in preparation for shows. Does that somehow make it not Rollkur? just because lots of people use it? that's why I started this thread so more people wouldn't get into using rollkur disguised as a nh version of reining Is it wrong? I don't know You don't? Have you seen the reasearch on the breathing, bony growth, limited vision, neck and spine effects?Is it right? Depends on the rider/trainer/owners point of view I geuss. Is it abusive? Yes!!! Just ask SCIENCE!!!Again, depends on the point of view.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that all serious athletes put themselves yes exactly it's their choice! I don't know any horse taht would choose to be ridden in rollkur.
> some pretty strenous training activities when preparing for competitions. Sometimes I sit back and think... Crazy people! But the want to win, for different reasons. Many of them do it purely for the enjoyment of the sport. It's not a lot different and truthfully, most horses enjoy having a job and alot of times when you ride these horse, they are trying so hard to please, not out of fear or because they've been beaten down, but because they WANT to please.
> 
> Yes, some are machines, emotionless mechanical objects, why do we think we have to make them into such? but most of them have personalities.Yes and I loooove every bit of my mare's personality even if it would have Kevin and Delete would have shot her by now lol


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## farmpony84

You do love to twist words and thoughts for each person that posts on this thread don't you. And to think, I used to look forward to reading thoughts from Delete and Kevin but now that I know they are mean and nasty horse killers... I just don't know anymore......


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## Serendipitous

To ride the sky said:


> Hyperflexion is Rollkur.


Actually, Rollkur may be (neck) hyperflexion, but hyperflexion is not Rollkur. (A square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares.) You can find hyperflexion of the pasterns in horses with overly long ones, and in other body parts as well.


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## franknbeans

QUOTE=farmpony84;1106664]I thought the point was that Clinton Anderson used Rolkur, which he doesn't Yes, although what he is doing is over flexing Hyperflexion is Rollkur. Are overflexing and hyperflexion the same? You have used them as if they are the same...... Tons and tons and tons of trainers and riders do it in preparation for shows. Does that somehow make it not Rollkur? Just because lots of people use it? That's why I started this thread so more people wouldn't get into using rollkur disguised as a nh version of reiningThose of us who do some reining do not agree. We don't have to! Is it wrong? I don't know You don't? Have you seen the reasearch on the breathing, bony growth, limited vision, neck and spine effects?I might agree if the horse was forced into this for extended periods. Do you believe the horse is like this for hours at a time? You are looking at a few frames...not the entire movie, yet you are judging.Is it right? Depends on the rider/trainer/owners point of view I geuss. Is it abusive? Yes!!! Just ask SCIENCE!!! Here we go again with the IQ......Again, depends on the point of view. Yup, it does. and you refuse to see anything but yours.

The fact of the matter is that all serious athletes put themselves yes exactly it's their choice! I don't know any horse taht would choose to be ridden in rollkur. You talk to them too?:shock:
Some pretty strenous training activities when preparing for competitions. Sometimes I sit back and think... Crazy people! But the want to win, for different reasons. Many of them do it purely for the enjoyment of the sport. It's not a lot different and truthfully, most horses enjoy having a job and alot of times when you ride these horse, they are trying so hard to please, not out of fear or because they've been beaten down, but because they WANT to please. 

Yes, some are machines, emotionless mechanical objects, why do we think we have to make them into such? but most of them have personalities.Yes and I loooove every bit of my mare's personality even if it would have Kevin and Delete would have shot her by now lol Wow. YOu just make a giant leap here, don't you? Doesn't say much for your mare.:wink: Perhaps she has the ability to learn.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-h...rson-uses-rollkur-92528/page12/#ixzz1Smuiv4V3


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## To ride the sky

Ok lots of things to respond to...

I didn't expect any of you to care about my IQ and such I just was showing that just because I use the training I do and the fact that I'm against Rollkur doesn't make me an airhead lol not trying to toot my own horn lol And Yes I totally understand the diff between common sense and intelligence and believe it or not I have both! I actually agree about the pony example you gave and how that would be bad however if you really know what you are doing and are kind there is nothing wrong with that. Usually doesnt end up in dead horses. Keep in mind that I said I am assertive and have no problem giving my horse one good whack with a crop just as a lead horse would do with no anger just as a lead horse would nip/kick. the key is assertiveness in stead of cruelty! 

Again I will say rollkur is cruelty and CA uses rollkur!


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## To ride the sky

So are you guys seriously advocating rollkur? Or if u prefer to call it overflexing whatever it is that Craig S and CA do you really are ok with someone riding your horse like that? What I was referring to were not snippits but dvd's that CA had made and was promiting riding a horse in an 'overflexed' lol frame for over half an hour it was a yound horse and he barely allowed the horse to raise his head to a natural position the duration of the session. If this is ok with u then fine but it sure isn't ok with me! I was just letting people know! I don't see why u feel the need to defend such actions! 

And no I don't talk to horses...hard to believe coming from a tree hugger hey? Lol however I really doubt that any horse would choose to be ridden like that instead of being ridden in a natural headset.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Flexing, as described in CA's book, is NOT rollkur. It is not hyperflexing, either. It is stretching.

As a runner, I've done some stretching. Stretching is going just past the comfort point, but not to pain. With time, you can stretch to a point that would have caused you pain before.

In the book that I quoted, it was explained that one of the horses used couldn't go as far, and that you need to work with what the horse can give. In flexing exercises, you are ASKING the horse to stretch, not pulling on the reins and using brute force and pain to create an artificial stretch.

Does CA follow his own writing? I don't know - I've never watched him do anything. But look at the picture you showed:










That doesn't look like a brute force, brace yourself in the saddle and overpower the horse pull to me. It also isn't straight back. Unlike rollkur, it involves lateral movement as well.

I do these with my mare - with no bit, and using two fingers on the rein. I ask her for a bit more stretch, using my fingers, and release all pull when she gives it.

The idea is to teach the HORSE to stretch itself, not to be the horse's stretching partner. 

And why do I do this with my mare? To CALM her. Yes, I do 'rollkur' to calm my mare. When she starts to spin up over something, I ask her to stretch and refocus on me. With a few stretches, her body relaxes and then her mind relaxes. It is the same thing as a head down cue - "refocus on me, not the scary thing, stretch, relax, OK, let's go on riding". 

I've never watched CA in motion, so all I can go by is what he wrote. And what he wrote is NOT rollkur. It is teaching the horse to stretch, relax, settle, focus,and continue.

And it MAY be that he does it while doing demos to help show what a horse CAN do.

Oh, and my mare is an Arabian. I have no desire for her to tuck her head. If she gets strung out and starts pulling herself from the front, I'll give a gentle pull on the rein (my instructor refers to it as a 'soft touch' rather than a half-halt, to emphasize how it needs to be done) and ask her to shift her weight back a bit. We don't use a bit, and she can move her head where she feels comfortable.

My oldest daughter riding Mia on a 'good day':


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## farmpony84

Just because folks choose to abide by a general statement such as: "To each his own" does not mean they advocate something. Since you like to use analogies, it's like when you go to a shopping center and you see a mother swat her child on the bottom for throwing a temper tantrum. Is it abuse or is it discipline? It's one persons perception. Just because I'm not going to leap over a rail and rip a man off his horse for practicing a specific training technique does not mean I'm going to rush out and do it. That's why we have minds, so that we can make our own decisions....

PS - That horse looks pretty supple to me...


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## Cherie

Boy, I work for a day (hauled 8 horses to the farriers and sat all day waiting on them) and I come back to 12 pages of 'this'. 
Well, here's my 2 cents worth:

*Congratulations NRHA, Keven and couple of others that have said exactly what needed to be said.*

First of all. I would like to know how many of 'you' that hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living? How many of you have ever trained for the public (that includes spoiled and dangerous horses that people like you bring to trainers like Kevin and I) ? How many of you have ever shown ANY kind of horse in ANY discipline at a National or World level? Heck, I'd even settle for a regional or State level?

The people that equate 'spirit' and 'resistance' with a good horse that is just trainable by some other mysterious method that loves and pets him into being good has never make a useful or a good horse out of any spirited resistant horse. [I am saying 'useful' here and not a 'pet' that follows you around.]

Anyone that thinks a well mannered, respectful 'finished' horse (particularly a reiner) is a mindless robot has never ridden or even been around one. They are anything BUT mindless robots. They are the absolute culmination of good breeding (for athletic ability and a mind that wants to be trained) and good training -- that illusive quality know among us trainers as 'trainability'.

I think you actually know as much about true training as you do about performance prospects. But, I know where there is an endless source of horses that should fit you to a T. Go get some of the 'flunk-out' halter horses that have multiple lines to Impressive. They should be just what you like. They push back when they should yield. They resist when they should give. They are the sorriest performance prospects out there, so you should love them. I just want to see you make anything desirable or pleasant much less 'competitive' out of any of them. 

*You can spend a lifetime trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t and you still do not have chicken salad.*

When I was young and idealistic, I thought I should try to 'save' all of the spoiled rank horses in the world. I did this for a few years before I realized it was a lot more fun to ride nice horses that wanted to yield to pressure and wanted to please their handler/ rider. You know -- those awful 'trainable' horses NRHA and Kevin and I keep talking about.

And the rest of you that think a trained finished horse has to be abused -- I feel sorry for you because you will never own or ride one. 

Back to the original post -- no, I do not think this is Rolkur and I do not think it is abusive. I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


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## farmpony84

I'm probably supposed to yell at you for that chicken poop comment but it reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines...

"You know that little white speck on top of the chicken...poopie.... It's still chicken....poopie"


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Cherie said:


> Boy, I work for a day (hauled 8 horses to the farriers and sat all day waiting on them) and I come back to 12 pages of 'this'.
> Well, here's my 2 cents worth:
> 
> *Congratulations NRHA, Keven and couple of others that have said exactly what needed to be said.*
> 
> First of all. I would like to know how many of 'you' that hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living? How many of you have ever trained for the public (that includes spoiled and dangerous horses that people like you bring to trainers like Kevin and I) ? How many of you have ever shown ANY kind of horse in ANY discipline at a National or World level? Heck, I'd even settle for a regional or State level?
> 
> The people that equate 'spirit' and 'resistance' with a good horse that is just trainable by some other mysterious method that loves and pets him into being good has never make a useful or a good horse out of any spirited resistant horse. [I am saying 'useful' here and not a 'pet' that follows you around.]
> 
> Anyone that thinks a well mannered, respectful 'finished' horse (particularly a reiner) is a mindless robot has never ridden or even been around one. They are anything BUT mindless robots. They are the absolute culmination of good breeding (for athletic ability and a mind that wants to be trained) and good training -- that illusive quality know among us trainers as 'trainability'.
> 
> I think you actually know as much about true training as you do about performance prospects. But, I know where there is an endless source of horses that should fit you to a T. Go get some of the 'flunk-out' halter horses that have multiple lines to Impressive. They should be just what you like. They push back when they should yield. They resist when they should give. They are the sorriest performance prospects out there, so you should love them. I just want to see you make anything desirable or pleasant much less 'competitive' out of any of them.
> 
> *You can spend a lifetime trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t and you still do not have chicken salad.*
> 
> When I was young and idealistic, I thought I should try to 'save' all of the spoiled rank horses in the world. I did this for a few years before I realized it was a lot more fun to ride nice horses that wanted to yield to pressure and wanted to please their handler/ rider. You know -- those awful 'trainable' horses NRHA and Kevin and I keep talking about.
> 
> And the rest of you that think a trained finished horse has to be abused -- I feel sorry for you because you will never own or ride one.
> 
> Back to the original post -- no, I do not think this is Rolkur and I do not think it is abusive. I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


I just read this too and I say :clap::happydance::thumbsup:


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## franknbeans

Cherie said:


> Boy, I work for a day (hauled 8 horses to the farriers and sat all day waiting on them) and I come back to 12 pages of 'this'.
> Well, here's my 2 cents worth:
> 
> *Congratulations NRHA, Keven and couple of others that have said exactly what needed to be said.*
> 
> First of all. I would like to know how many of 'you' that hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living? How many of you have ever trained for the public (that includes spoiled and dangerous horses that people like you bring to trainers like Kevin and I) ? How many of you have ever shown ANY kind of horse in ANY discipline at a National or World level? Heck, I'd even settle for a regional or State level?
> 
> The people that equate 'spirit' and 'resistance' with a good horse that is just trainable by some other mysterious method that loves and pets him into being good has never make a useful or a good horse out of any spirited resistant horse. [I am saying 'useful' here and not a 'pet' that follows you around.]
> 
> Anyone that thinks a well mannered, respectful 'finished' horse (particularly a reiner) is a mindless robot has never ridden or even been around one. They are anything BUT mindless robots. They are the absolute culmination of good breeding (for athletic ability and a mind that wants to be trained) and good training -- that illusive quality know among us trainers as 'trainability'.
> 
> I think you actually know as much about true training as you do about performance prospects. But, I know where there is an endless source of horses that should fit you to a T. Go get some of the 'flunk-out' halter horses that have multiple lines to Impressive. They should be just what you like. They push back when they should yield. They resist when they should give. They are the sorriest performance prospects out there, so you should love them. I just want to see you make anything desirable or pleasant much less 'competitive' out of any of them.
> 
> *You can spend a lifetime trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t and you still do not have chicken salad.*
> 
> When I was young and idealistic, I thought I should try to 'save' all of the spoiled rank horses in the world. I did this for a few years before I realized it was a lot more fun to ride nice horses that wanted to yield to pressure and wanted to please their handler/ rider. You know -- those awful 'trainable' horses NRHA and Kevin and I keep talking about.
> 
> And the rest of you that think a trained finished horse has to be abused -- I feel sorry for you because you will never own or ride one.
> 
> Back to the original post -- no, I do not think this is Rolkur and I do not think it is abusive. I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


 
PERFECTLY said.:clap:


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## .Delete.

First off the comment that farmpony looks forward to my posts made me smile =D 

Anywho, Ride ofcourse I would have shot the dumb stupid headed meanie horsey that didn't respond to my vicious beating and excessive 20hour rides with my horses head cranked to it's chest. I would shoot it with the 12G I carry with me at all times incase I run into that situation. 

It's almost like you know me.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz

EDITED.
Woah, when I posted this like 10 new posts came up. I have some reading to do


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## .Delete.

^ edit: nevermind then


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## Beauseant

franknbeans said:


> Then there is what I call the "tree hugger" types. Doe, and a couple of others would fall in here. To this group-do you realize that not every horse will respond to your "butterflies and kisses" methods either? Life cannot always be .....what did you call it?......"harmony". Sorry, but life just isn;t that way.


What's wrong with being a tree hugger??? Trees are a necessity of life, without them none of us would be breathing. Now, let's ALL go hug the next tree you pass by!!


I guess me and my family are butterflies and kisses types. And yes, we realize this laid back approach won't work with every horse, NOTHING works on EVERY horse.... but it has worked miracles on our two horses. Having horses that respond to our non conventional approach is not luck, it is by design. I have an ability to "read" horses, and we spent lots of time with both of ours before purchasing them. And since we are a butterflies and kisses type family, we looked for horses that we knew we could reach with this approach. 

ESPECIALLY our 6 yr. old Ottb.....If you approach him with aggression, swinging your carrot stick or whip, you lose ANY chance you had of getting cooperation out of him. He is all fight and no flight. He'll fight you with a vengeance, and in the end...he would have to be sold, or beaten senseless. We've worked with him our way, and I must say, he is the most well behaved horse you will ever meet. EVER. He wasn't always like that....we got him fresh off the track and he was a pistol. A spoiled brat with a bad temper and NO manners whatsoever. 

What is our way, you may ask.....Well, my son studied with a trainer for two years learning the Parelli techniques, and a few months learning the Schrake method. Early on, he bought some CA dvds,read his book...what he came up with is that CA is a little too aggressive in his approach for this family. Doesn't make him a bad trainer, just not quite our cup of tea. Our approach to our horses is more laid back, ...

It doesn't make us wrong any more than it makes CA wrong just because his way is not our way.

We searched and found horses that we could read and know that they were the perfect candidates for a tree hugger family....and we were right. Our horses are perfect for our family and respond well to our non aggressive/confrontational approach.


I always said, we have the two most perfect horses in the world...for this family. It wasn't by luck or chance.....it was by design.


In summation: CA's methods conflict with ours oftentimes, but that doesn't make him a bad trainer. As a matter of fact, when Beau was fresh off the track and acting like a complete brat, we bought the CA training halter as it has two extra knots than the Parelli one ..... placed where they are, the knots give one a little more "pay attention to me" advantage...and in the beginning, we needed that. We still use it once in a while, like if we are taking him for a walk on a new trail he has never been on and he is anxious and scared.


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## Allison Finch

bsms said:


> Flexing, as described in CA's book, is NOT rollkur. It is not hyperflexing, either. It is stretching.


Wow. what is the difference? One is "flexing" his horse to the right, one to the left. CA has a death grip and is bracing into his stirrups, too.



















I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you really think there is a difference.

When I ride, I stretch my horse. I consider THIS a stretch. This is the beginning, he went lower after this photo, but he is NOT cranked. He is relaxed and happy.















> . In flexing exercises, you are ASKING the horse to stretch, not pulling on the reins and using brute force and pain to create an artificial stretch.


Those two photos look identical, to me. Both brute force and painful.







> That doesn't look like a brute force, brace yourself in the saddle and overpower the horse pull to me. It also isn't straight back. Unlike rollkur, it involves lateral movement as well.


Where's the difference? Lateral movement? How? They are both yanking and holding on curbs. Up just adds more leverage than back. How is that easier?




> The idea is to teach the HORSE to stretch itself, not to be the horse's stretching partner


I see no teaching here. I see force....on both of them.. 



> And why do I do this with my mare? To CALM her. Yes, I do 'rollkur' to calm my mare.


Ok, finally.


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## Eliz

Lol Delete. Sorry I threw you off there 

*Rollkur* or *hyperflexion of the [horse's] neck* is a practice in equestrianism defined as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" and is banned by the world governing body, the International Federation for Equestrian Sports (FEI).[1][2] The FEI recognises a distinction between rollkur and the riding of the horse in a deep outline not achieved by force.

Ok, So my opinion on the original post is this. If CA rode the horse like those pics for the majority of the ride, I would call that Rollkur, and that is WRONG, IMO. Sometimes I've have to bump a WP arab's head behind the vertical (momentarily) to get it through his thick skull that he is not going to lean. Sure, I'm hard on my horses in some aspects, and I'm agressive to correct. At the same time, I am not unrelenting. If a horse is dragging me down, I'm going to give them a sharp bump and say "hey, you're going to have to quit avoiding work". BUT, I'm not going to hold the rein even tighter througout the ride or bump constantly to prevent the horse getting heavy.

I've never really been into NH, and I've only seen a bit of CA. What I have seen has not been cruel, besides those pictures; Which could have been taken at brief moments and passed off as what the entire ride looked like.

I agree that reiners are some of the most highly trained horses. I've had the honor to sit on a few (and these were arabs, not even the NRHA-quality horses) and I appreciate the softness and athleticism of the horses. However, the following video IMO is NOT acceptable. You can train a champion without doing this, or atleast a really solid reiner:




 
So I suppose my beef is not with CA unless these pictures represent an entire ride. My beef is with other trainers that do stuff like rollkur and get away with it because it wins. I'd rather have a happy, healthy horse and be less wealthy.


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## Eliz

Allison Finch said:


> I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you really think there is a difference.


 
I agree. 
Actually, I am a little disappointed in HF. Usually, people here can be counted on to recognize cruelty and speak up against it.

No way a western sport like reining can be bad for the horse, you're thinking of eeeevil dressage :roll:


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## Allison Finch

Cherie said:


> First of all. I would like to know how many of 'you' that hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living?


I do



> How many of you have ever trained for the public (that includes spoiled and dangerous horses that people like you bring to trainers like Kevin and I) ?


I do.

The horse in my avatar was a grown breeding stallion who was so rank that no one wanted to put him under saddle. The owners had me work with him and within two weeks this horse was a totally different horse. Who said that because I use softer techniques I cannot instill discipline?



> How many of you have ever shown ANY kind of horse in ANY discipline at a National or World level? Heck, I'd even settle for a regional or State level?


I have....in three disciplines.



> The people that equate 'spirit' and 'resistance' with a good horse that is just trainable by some other mysterious method that loves and pets him into being good has never make a useful or a good horse out of any spirited resistant horse. [I am saying 'useful' here and not a 'pet' that follows you around.]


So, just because I don't "manhandle" my horses in a negative way means I am unable to produce a well mannered respectful horse? You need to talk to the owners of the horses I've trained and showed. They may beg to differ.



> Anyone that thinks a well mannered, respectful 'finished' horse (particularly a reiner) is a mindless robot has never ridden or even been around one. They are anything BUT mindless robots. They are the absolute culmination of good breeding (for athletic ability and a mind that wants to be trained) and good training -- that illusive quality know among us trainers as 'trainability'.


In agree. I have been around wonderful reiners and all but a few were fabulous horses. A couple were very intimidated horses who were robotic. But they were the product of a trainer most of the other reiners also disliked. I could show you equally sad horses that wear English saddles, too



> I think you actually know as much about true training as you do about performance prospects.


careful with assumptions.



> [FONT=&quot]And the rest of you that think a trained finished horse has to be abused -- I feel sorry for you because you will never own or ride one.


I never said they were all abused. I said I don't believe in rollkur- in ANY of its forms no matter who uses it. THAT is, after all, what this thread is about. NOT English vs Reining, as it seems to have morphed to.



> Back to the original post -- no, I do not think this is Rolkur and I do not think it is abusive.


Then we simply disagree. I can't look at either of those photos and not think it abusive, personally.



> I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


Funny, self carriage is the whole goal of dressage. I have managed to train mighty competitive horses to grand prix without using anything the even resembles rollkur. But, maybe I'm just lucky.

I am not a NH person. However, I do use a few of their techniques. Most of the glitz I simply smile at.


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## bubba13

Cherie said:


> First of all. I would like to know how many of 'you' that hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living? How many of you have ever trained for the public (that includes spoiled and dangerous horses that people like you bring to trainers like Kevin and I) ? How many of you have ever shown ANY kind of horse in ANY discipline at a National or World level? Heck, I'd even settle for a regional or State level?


Who "hate all training methods that actually produce well trained, rideable, showable, respectful, and pleasant 'finished' horses for a living?" I don't think anyone does. The beef is with rollkur, or hyperflexion, whichever precise term we're using. I hate that, and I hate, as I've said before, the inability of Clinton's horses to stand the slightest rein contact. Those horses, to me, are not particularly useful for anything outside the controlled show ring. If you get in a bind, it's hard to direct a horse if you can't touch his face without him tucking his nose back to an unreachable level...

And yes, I have trained for the public (though not what I would call "professionally," I was still making a paycheck), and broke colts, and trained and finished barrel and pleasure/competitive trail horses. And competed in barrel racing at the World level. And no, I'm not a mamby-pamby, don't-hurt-the-horsey trainer.



> I think you actually know as much about true training as you do about performance prospects. But, I know where there is an endless source of horses that should fit you to a T. Go get some of the 'flunk-out' halter horses that have multiple lines to Impressive. They should be just what you like. They push back when they should yield. They resist when they should give. They are the sorriest performance prospects out there, so you should love them. I just want to see you make anything desirable or pleasant much less 'competitive' out of any of them.


Why does everything have to be 'competitive?' I get that a lot of people want to show and compete, and that for them horses are a just a commodity and a means to an end. There's nothing _inherently _wrong with that. But it can easily lead to a slippery slope...and before you know it, you're justifying riding like Clinton's, and even calling it necessary and desirable! It's not at all, unless you want to compete and win at reining, but only because that is the trend that the judges reward in the artificial environment within the realms of the sport! It's a very narrow bracket we're talking about here, and all too easy to get carried away by greed.

But that's not exactly what _this_ particular thread is about, so I refer you to another thread I started recently, which might be a more prudent place to carry on this portion of the conversation: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/pursuit-instant-gratification-90752/



> And the rest of you that think a trained finished horse has to be abused -- I feel sorry for you because you will never own or ride one.
> 
> Back to the original post -- no, I do not think this is Rolkur and I do not think it is abusive. I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


"Abusive." I was the first one to use that word in a post, and it wasn't even my word--it was part of a quote that I copied along with the picture it was captioning, to illustrate the OP's point when someone asked for photographic evidence of the rollkur claim. I don't think Clinton is "abusive." But I still do not approve of the way he rides, and find it over-the-top, harsh, and nonsensical.


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## bubba13

Look:





 
_Consistently_ behind the vertical.


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## Allison Finch

Well said, Bubba!!


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## bsms

Allison Finch said:


> Wow. what is the difference? One is "flexing" his horse to the right, one to the left. CA has a death grip and is bracing into his stirrups, too.


If I was trying to overpower the horse's neck, I'd use my back, like the second guy, not my bicep, like CA. There is pretty much a straight line in the 2nd picture heel / hip / shoulder, while CA does not. Also, the head is further to the side in the CA picture. CA has less leverage.

Without actually being there, or being on the horse, it is hard to KNOW how much pressure is being put on the reins. But I've gotten results similar to the CA picture - not as deep, but we don't do it a lot - with a side pull halter and two fingers (index & thumb) on the rein. And I guarantee you, I cannot overpower Mia with 2 fingers... 

And remember, when I do it with Mia, it is a RELAXATION technique. It helps her to calm down. There is no fighting going on. I'm asking, and she gives...and relaxes some...and we repeat until she has calmed down. My goal, unlike dressage, is never to ride with the head behind the vertical.


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## .Delete.

Am I the only one who doesn't think he has a death grip on that horse? Honestly to me it looks like he has a light hold on that horse. I don't see it as being afraid of pressure I see it as giving to pressure. Just because he barely moves a finger his horse gives it's head doesn't mean they are scared. To me that's a very well trained horse. Perhaps that's just me. 

I also believe that this might have been a bad moment for a camera to snap (all tho I see nothing wrong with it) anyone can look like a terrible meanie headed rider if a picture is taken at the right moment and angle. 

I have seen CA in action several times and I have to say I was impressed every time. His horses don't seem scared to me they seem respectful and obedient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Unfortunately, those low headed, behind the vertical horses are what seem to be winning in the reining arena these days. There's no doubt that CA can turn out some dang well trained horses, I just don't particularly care for how they carry their head (but I can say that about a _lot_ of people/disciplines).


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## BoxT

Using a shock collar for cribbing is abuse. Studies have been done by the major universities showing that most horses who crib have ulcers or someother gastro upset. They are cribbing to help relieve the pain. Some drink excess water because of the pain. The new studies have debunked the old thinking that cribbing is learned.


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## heartprints62

Delete - I agree with you. There is a huge difference in lateral flexation and rollkur, but you can't see it if you don't know what your looking for. The difference in the pictures could be explained like this:
1. CA picture: Turn your head too look to the right, then touch your chin to your shoulder. Feel how your neck stretches?
2. English rider picture: Tuck your chin to your chest and attempt to see or keep breathing... good luck.... 

Maybe this example will help with the difference issue. It's not anywhere near the same!


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## Allison Finch

bsms said:


> If I was trying to overpower the horse's neck, I'd use my back, like the second guy, not my bicep, like CA. There is pretty much a straight line in the 2nd picture heel / hip / shoulder, while CA does not. Also, the head is further to the side in the CA picture. CA has less leverage.


As for the amount of leverage...don't you think the *bit* might factor in there somewhere? Weymouth bits are traditionally low port thicker bits that offer little "harshness" outside of the leverage. That bit, in the photo, has pretty short shanks. Bits legal for dressage are not allowed to be very harsh, per se.I don't know what bit CA has.



> Without actually being there, or being on the horse, it is hard to KNOW how much pressure is being put on the reins. But I've gotten results similar to the CA picture - not as deep, but we don't do it a lot - with a side pull halter and two fingers (index & thumb) on the rein. And I guarantee you, I cannot overpower Mia with 2 fingers...


It is the POSITION I have as much a problem with as the muscle behind it. If the horse is easy to get into the "frame" was he always that easy? Or, did he develop that as an escape mechanism?



> And remember, when I do it with Mia, it is a RELAXATION technique. It helps her to calm down. There is no fighting going on. I'm asking, and she gives...and relaxes some...and we repeat until she has calmed down. My goal, unlike dressage, is never to ride with the head behind the vertical.


Dressage goals are NOT to ride behind the vertical. It is supposed to be severely penalized to be behind the vertical at all. That is a discussion for another thread. To put a horse in that position affects their sight and breathing. If a horse can't see where they are going, they don't offer as much resistance, it seems. Kinda like how people purposely unbalance their horses by counterbending to control their movement. Unbalancing your horse makes them less likely to be too forward. So, it may be the mechanics behind it that "relaxes" your horse. But I don't know, since I know neither your horse or how you're riding it.


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## .Delete.

BoxT said:


> Using a shock collar for cribbing is abuse. Studies have been done by the major universities showing that most horses who crib have ulcers or someother gastro upset. They are cribbing to help relieve the pain. Some drink excess water because of the pain. The new studies have debunked the old thinking that cribbing is learned.


When all else fails I will glady shock the poopy out of my horse if it means saving his teeth or his life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete.

I don't feel he forced that horse into that position at first Allison. I know from personal expirence that bending bending bending bending, hip movements, shoulder movements, counter bending. Goes a long way and if this horse was supple in all those areas which I'm sure he was (I don't know for sure, ofcourse) you can get him into that position rather easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peggysue

how many of you have actually sat and watched CA ride anything BESIDES videos?? 

I have watched him at RTTH 3 or 4 times now and there is NOTHING natural about his training reminds me of the old days of running the horse in the round pen until they didn't have any air left to fight. 

I watched his THREE YEAR OLD suck back everytime he touched the reins!! IT wasn't soft it was fear and watching in person you can SEE it in the horses eyes and the tension in the horse's body


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## .Delete.

Edit: I like horses


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## MyBoyPuck

.Delete. said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't think he has a death grip on that horse? Honestly to me it looks like he has a light hold on that horse. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I don't see death grip. Clinton's all about immediate release of pressure. What I do see though, is an almost straight up pulling motion that has to put some serious pressure on the bars of the horse's mouth and resulting in the horse doing what is necessary to evade the pressue. Even if it's a momentary tug, that's just not pleasant on the horse's mouth. I would be curious to see how well a CA trained horse reaches for the bit when ridden with a snaffle. With shank bits, they all look like they're doing whatever they have to to avoid the contact.


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## smrobs

In all honesty, outside of a couple of reining competitions, I have never seen CA ride in anything _other_ than a simple snaffle.


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## MyBoyPuck

smrobs said:


> In all honesty, outside of a couple of reining competitions, I have never seen CA ride in anything _other_ than a simple snaffle.


Bummer. I assumed all this behind the vertical despite what appears to be light contact was offset by the use of leverage bits. If he does ride in snaffles, I don't know what the heck he's doing for the horses to be ducking behind the contact as much as they do.


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## Peggysue

twisted wire


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## bubba13

.Delete. said:


> Edit: I like horses


Why did you delete your statement about how you've never seen fear or intimidation displayed in CA's horses? :?


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## Allison Finch

I don't know....the way he is bracing into the stirrups just makes me think there is some power behind his hands. We will never know, though.....


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## To ride the sky

Allison Finch said:


> Wow. what is the difference? One is "flexing" his horse to the right, one to the left. CA has a death grip and is bracing into his stirrups, too.
> 
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> 
> I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you really think there is a difference.
> 
> When I ride, I stretch my horse. I consider THIS a stretch. This is the beginning, he went lower after this photo, but he is NOT cranked. He is relaxed and happy.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Those two photos look identical, to me. Both brute force and painful.
> 
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> 
> Where's the difference? Lateral movement? How? They are both yanking and holding on curbs. Up just adds more leverage than back. How is that easier?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see no teaching here. I see force....on both of them..
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, finally.
> 
> Yes!!! Exactly!!!:clap::clap::clap: If you guys saw the DVD I saw of CA you would clearly see this! You can't say he didn't do it if you didn't see the DVD. Allison I love your horse he looks so relaxed and is stretching so nicely! Kudos to you!!!


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## To ride the sky

bubba13 said:


> Why did you delete your statement about how you've never seen fear or intimidation displayed in CA's horses? :?


Yes! Why???


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## To ride the sky

MyBoyPuck said:


> I don't know what the heck he's doing for the horses to be ducking behind the contact as much as they do.


Exactly!!!! All these 'better quality horses' that arent the chicken **** that we tree huggers deserve shouldn't have to duck behind the contact if they are truly supple and light!!!


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## heartprints62

Seriously, everyone stop, take a breath, and do this example.

The difference in the pictures could be explained like this:

1. CA picture: Turn your head to look to the right, then touch your chin to your shoulder. Feel how your neck stretches? 
2. English rider picture: Tuck your chin to your chest and attempt to see or keep breathing... good luck.... 


From what I have seen and read of CA, this is the best way to explain the difference. Flexing does not take ANY force! As previously stated, it only takes a thumb and forefinger. It is not cruel, it's stretching!


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## To ride the sky

MyBoyPuck said:


> I agree. I don't see death grip. Clinton's all about immediate release of pressure. What I do see though, is an almost straight up pulling motion that has to put some serious pressure on the bars of the horse's mouth and resulting in the horse doing what is necessary to evade the pressue. Even if it's a momentary tug, that's just not pleasant on the horse's mouth. I would be curious to see how well a CA trained horse reaches for the bit when ridden with a snaffle. With shank bits, they all look like they're doing whatever they have to to avoid the contact.


Like this?


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## Allison Finch

The only main difference I see is CA is flexing left, dressage is flexing left. Both chins are in chest, both polls are equally stressed.


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## To ride the sky

heartprints62 said:


> Seriously, everyone stop, take a breath, and do this example.
> 
> The difference in the pictures could be explained like this:
> 
> 1. CA picture: Turn your head to look to the right, then touch your chin to your shoulder. Feel how your neck stretches?
> 2. English rider picture: Tuck your chin to your chest and attempt to see or keep breathing... good luck....
> 
> 
> From what I have seen and read of CA, this is the best way to explain the difference. Flexing does not take ANY force! As previously stated, it only takes a thumb and forefinger. It is not cruel, it's stretching!


I agree that lateral flexion as in carrot stretches when for A FEW SECONDS and VOLUNTARILY offered by the horse with out FORCE is stretching! For example if I do some carrot stretches with my mare as well as stretch her legs before riding that is stretching. However if I were to flex my horse for 30 minutes at a canter as CA did in his DVD that would not be stretching it would be ABUSE!


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## bubba13

heartprints62 said:


> Seriously, everyone stop, take a breath, and do this example.
> 
> The difference in the pictures could be explained like this:
> 
> 1. CA picture: Turn your head to look to the right, then touch your chin to your shoulder. Feel how your neck stretches?
> 2. English rider picture: Tuck your chin to your chest and attempt to see or keep breathing... good luck....
> 
> 
> From what I have seen and read of CA, this is the best way to explain the difference. Flexing does not take ANY force! As previously stated, it only takes a thumb and forefinger. It is not cruel, it's stretching!


Watch the video I posted. It's not just lateral flexion. There is plenty of overbent vertical flexion, with the horse moving straight and the nose still tucked far behind the vertical.


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## To ride the sky

Eliz said:


> I agree.
> Actually, I am a little disappointed in HF. Usually, people here can be counted on to recognize cruelty and speak up against it.
> 
> No way a western sport like reining can be bad for the horse, you're thinking of eeeevil dressage :roll:


 
:clap::clap::clap:


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## Allison Finch

Folks, once again...it is not an US against THEM situation, here. It is people using forceful methods to take shortcuts simply to win, not to produce a better horse. It doesn't matter what saddle is on the horse. This practice is being used across the boards. I'm not talking quick "bumps", I'm talking hold em in for a long time.

*For ribbons *(and hard cash)


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## heartprints62

Bubba and Ride- I'm not negating the fact that the horse in the video is def overflexed. And I already stated that I agree that CA does ride overflexed a lot, but it is *not* rollkur. I was just trying to point out the difference between what rollkur is compared to what CA teaches as lateral flexation. There is a huge difference in the two practices. 

All of my horses flex, as BSMS has stated, it is wonderful for claming a horse and redirecting the horses attention back to the rider WITHOUT the use of force or cruelty, it really does only take 2 fingers. Thats not cruel, its a good tool. And it is not chin to chest as in rollkur, it is chin to shoulder/ribs and it starts by being taught in the halter on the ground so that you NEVER have to pull the bit threw the horses mouth. 

Flexing is the precurser to the "one rein stop" which is the emergency break in any dicipline. And who is to say that in that particular picture, that's exactly what CA is going into, a one rein stop? The problem with an action photo is that non of us took it, so we don't truely know what was going on at that moment.


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## To ride the sky

.Delete. said:


> I don't feel he forced that horse into that position at first Allison. I know from personal expirence that bending bending bending bending, hip movements, shoulder movements, counter bending. Goes a long way and if this horse was supple in all those areas which I'm sure he was (I don't know for sure, ofcourse) you can get him into that position rather easily.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You clearly haven't seen his clinics or instructional dvd's. He is PROMOTING and PROFITING from the rollkur he uses on his horses!


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## To ride the sky

Peggysue said:


> d there is NOTHING natural about his training reminds me of the old days of running the horse in the round pen until they didn't have any air left to fight.
> 
> I watched his THREE YEAR OLD suck back everytime he touched the reins!! IT wasn't soft it was fear and watching in person you can SEE it in the horses eyes and the tension in the horse's body


YES!!! That is exactly what I saw in the DVD (young horse as well) and what people I know have found at his clinics.


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## To ride the sky

bubba13 said:


> Watch the video I posted. It's not just lateral flexion. There is plenty of overbent vertical flexion, with the horse moving straight and the nose still tucked far behind the vertical.


Yes and the dvd I saw was almost all like this and even worse!


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## Eliz

*Facepalm*

If you all can't see that the horse is extremely hyperflexed just like the rollkur, I don't know what to tell you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not going to turn my cheek because its a big name trainer.


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## heartprints62

To ride the sky said:


> You clearly haven't seen his clinics or instructional dvd's. He is PROMOTING and PROFITING from the rollkur he uses on his horses!


Again, Ride, CA does NOT use rollkur, he uses lateral flexation to left and right shoulder, not chin to chest. And if you LISTEN to all of his dvd's or tv show or read his book, he repeatedly states that it is not about where the horse hold his head, its about being supple to cues. When a horse is trained so thoroughly to laterally flex left and right, they tend to find the head positioning naturally for thier own conformation. He doesn't make them hold it that way. He teaches the horse to be ready for the cue.


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## To ride the sky

heartprints62 said:


> Bubba and Ride- I'm not negating the fact that the horse in the video is def overflexed. And I already stated that I agree that CA does ride overflexed a lot,it is wonderful for claming a horse and redirecting the horses attention back to the rider
> 
> Why do so many of you have to even pull on the reins to calm your horse? :shock:
> 
> I dont get it!!! I've ridden over 100 horses in my life (many of them very overeactive, paniky type horses) and not once have I used the reins to calm a horse and I've never had an accident. If you can't calm your horse with your voice and relaxing your seat maybe you shouldn't get on that horse in the first place? lol


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## To ride the sky

Eliz said:


> *Facepalm*
> 
> If you all can't see that the horse is extremely hyperflexed just like the rollkur, I don't know what to tell you. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I'm not going to turn my cheek because its a big name trainer.


:clap::clap::clap:


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## Eliz

heartprints62 said:


> Again, Ride, CA does NOT use rollkur, he uses lateral flexation to left and right shoulder, not chin to chest. And if you LISTEN to all of his dvd's or tv show or read his book, he repeatedly states that it is not about where the horse hold his head, its about being supple to cues. When a horse is trained so thoroughly to laterally flex left and right, they tend to find the head positioning naturally for thier own conformation. He doesn't make them hold it that way. He teaches the horse to be ready for the cue.


He may say that, but (and this may come as a shock to you) he is not God and he is not perfect, and has the capability of being hypocrytical.

I'll repost this video. This is not lateral flexion, this is not even overbending to correct. This is not a natural head set. This is HYPERFLEXION:


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## Peggysue

to ride I have to disagree with NOT using the riens ... when a horse gets worked up stopping and flexing brings their mind back to you and off of whatever has upset them. if you haven't had a wreck or two you aren't riding 

a two finger flex is NOT pulling on the reins ... get on any of my horses and pull and they are gonna brace against you but two finger flex or turn ok we can do that 

I think maybe you have drunk too much KOOLAID

BTW CA Supports look up who finishes CA's horses  He pays somebody to do that for him ... he isn't a horse trainer he is a people trainer he doesn't fix horses he fixes tree hugging people


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## heartprints62

To ride the sky said:


> Why do so many of you have to even pull on the reins to calm your horse? :shock:
> 
> I dont get it!!! I've ridden over 100 horses in my life (many of them very overeactive, paniky type horses) and not once have I used the reins to calm a horse and I've never had an accident. If you can't calm your horse with your voice and relaxing your seat maybe you shouldn't get on that horse in the first place? lol


This is like asking why I chose to spank my child when you only gave time-outs to your kids..... because that's the method that works for me. It might not be your thing, that doesn't make it wrong.


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## To ride the sky

Peggysue said:


> if you haven't had a wreck or two you aren't riding
> 
> I think maybe you have drunk too much KOOLAID


So a horse or person has to get hurt be accepted in to your exclusive non Koolaid, no chicken ShI% horses allowed club?

Hahahahaaha what a load of BS You guys are too much!!! 
Just because I'm exposing CA for what he really is and saying I don't like it makes me a brainwashed follower? lol You guys really don't have a leg to stand on sorry!!! lol


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## heartprints62

Eliz said:


> He may say that, but (and this may come as a shock to you) he is not God and he is not perfect, and has the capability of being hypocrytical.
> 
> I'll repost this video. This is not lateral flexion, this is not even overbending to correct. This is not a natural head set. This is HYPERFLEXION:


Eliz, I understand what your saying, and I agree that in this video the horse is flexed more so that what I would agree to be natural, however, there is no tie down, the reins are loose, there is no pressure whatsoever on the horses face/mouth. The horse holds its head where it knows the contact will be minimal for each cue because it has been taught to be soft and supple. That's not cruel, it's response to training. Even Ride stated the desire for the horse to predict the next cue. A horse can't do that without a consistant and effective training.


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## Eliz

Peggysue said:


> I think maybe you have drunk too much KOOLAID












Andersonites- the new Parellites. :wink:


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## To ride the sky

heartprints62 said:


> This is like asking why I chose to spank my child when you only gave time-outs to your kids..... because that's the method that works for me. It might not be your thing, that doesn't make it wrong.


I didn't say that flexing (for a few seconds and voluntary) was wrong... and I do know why it works for you...it's because when a horse lowers it's poll it produces endorphins and when it raises it it produces adrenaline that's the only reason it 'works'. Sorry for mentioning science again I know how much distain some of you have for science on this thread lol

So sure it gives you 'results' as does rollkur..just look at Anky and Craig! This is what is making them win it certainly isn't talent!


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## heartprints62

I agree with Peggysue, you don't have to have a complete train wreck but you can't ride 100 horses without mixing up your style of training for different horses. With the variable of 100 horses, you are going to have at least one bad day and get hurt. It's a fact of life when your training. Especially if your training 100 horses. One of them is bound to get one up on you.


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## Allison Finch

Cherie mentioned


> I think it is part of training for the kind of impeccable 'self-carriage' that it takes to be competitive in the reining ring.


Self carriage shouldn't need force to achieve. If you have to use it....it is not SELF carriage, IMO

Heck, you not only don't need force, you don't need a bridle. This is really good dressage self carriage without the double bridle.











While I am not overly fond of this trainer, he NEVER uses rollkur/hyperflexion or whatever you might prefer to call it.


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## Eliz

To ride the sky said:


> So a horse or person has to get hurt be accepted in to your exclusive non Koolaid, no chicken ShI% horses allowed club?
> 
> Hahahahaaha what a load of BS You guys are too much!!!
> Just because I'm exposing CA for what he really is and saying I don't like it makes me a brainwashed follower? lol You guys really don't have a leg to stand on sorry!!! lol


 
Lol I'm pretty sure she is arguing against the Andersonites... Saying that they're the kookaid drinkers who apparently couldn't see rollkur even if their chins were strapped to their chests..


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## To ride the sky

Eliz said:


> Andersonites- the new Parellites. :wink:


HHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Love it!!! And so true!

Exactly! Peggysue... you are just the pot calling the kettle black to so speak!


----------



## bsms

To ride the sky said:


> heartprints62 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Why do so many of you have to even pull on the reins to calm your horse? :shock:...
> 
> 
> 
> It is a CUE for the horse to STRETCH. It is NOT "pulling on the reins". That is why I made the point that I do with with 2 fingers - I'm signaling the horse to stop paying attention to whatever is 'scary' and to do something I want. And the thing that I want is something that is naturally relaxing for a horse.
> 
> When you are tense, your muscles tighten. When your muscles stretch, they relax - and your mind will relax with them. THAT is what we are doing with the horse. We're using the body to relax the mind.
> 
> SHOULD I HAVE BOUGHT MIA?
> 
> No! She was way too much horse for me. But I bought her. I've had her for nearly 3 years. We work our way through rough spots, and in the process she is becoming a better horse, and I am becoming a better rider.
> 
> She is the horse that made me want to ride. I didn't care about riding horses until I met her. In some ways, she owns me more than I own her, if that makes any sense. She's been given away twice in her life, which speaks volumes - but I expect her to die on my place.
> 
> I just hope she doesn't take me with her...
Click to expand...


----------



## bsms

Eliz said:


> ...This is HYPERFLEXION:


No, it is not. He may or may not have trained for it by using hyperflexion, but what he was doing there was NOT hyperflexion. Hyperflexion is not done BY the horse, but TO the horse. It is using the rider's strength to forcibly stretch the horse past where the horse could go on its own. It never happens with slack in the rein.


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## heartprints62

To ride the sky said:


> I didn't say that flexing (for a few seconds and voluntary) was wrong... and I do know why it works for you...it's because when a horse lowers it's poll it produces endorphins and when it raises it it produces adrenaline that's the only reason it 'works'.


Ok, then if you understand the science behind it and agree that it's not wrong, then why do you hate CA so much? He isn't doing rollkur, he teaches the flexing (momentarily side to side) and is so consistant with it that the horse LEARNS to keep his pole open and to be supple to the flexing cues. The headset is not from force or from CA snatching their head into thier chest, it is where the horse has chosen to hold its head from consistant training left to right.


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## Eliz

heartprints62 said:


> Eliz, I understand what your saying, and I agree that in this video the horse is flexed more so that what I would agree to be natural, however, there is no tie down, the reins are loose, there is no pressure whatsoever on the horses face/mouth. The horse holds its head where it knows the contact will be minimal for each cue because it has been taught to be soft and supple. That's not cruel, it's response to training. Even Ride stated the desire for the horse to predict the next cue. A horse can't do that without a consistant and effective training.


 
I don't know about that. I thought throughout the video he maintained some contact on the reins, which is enough with a shanked bit like the one he is using.


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## To ride the sky

heartprints62 said:


> I agree with Peggysue, you don't have to have a complete train wreck but you can't ride 100 horses without mixing up your style of training for different horses. With the variable of 100 horses, you are going to have at least one bad day and get hurt. It's a fact of life when your training. Especially if your training 100 horses. One of them is bound to get one up on you.


 
Oh is this a proven statistic? lol 

"bound to get on up on you" so horses are subversive? Is this just the chicken SH%* ones? Cause I'm assuming all the ones I've ever worked with are right? lol As a tree hugger no one would have asked me to ride any non chicken $&^T horses right? Isn't this how it works? Someone educate me please!!! lol


----------



## heartprints62

LOL bsms, your quotes got messed up on that post... I def DID NOT say 
_"...Why do so many of you have to even pull on the reins to calm your horse? :shock:..."_
_That was Ride!_


----------



## Eliz

bsms said:


> No, it is not. He may or may not have trained for it by using hyperflexion, but what he was doing there was NOT hyperflexion. Hyperflexion is not done BY the horse, but TO the horse. It is using the rider's strength to forcibly stretch the horse past where the horse could go on its own. It never happens with slack in the rein.


 
Oh, my bad, I guess our definitions of hyperflexion were different... you're probably right :wink:

But OK, the horse is still behind the verticle, and it had to get trained to do that somehow :-(

ETA:
I sometimes have to pull the reins on horses, and bump them a little with the bit, I see no issue with a correction as needed. When it is continuous, like a short cut in training, thats where my issue lies.


----------



## heartprints62

To ride the sky said:


> Oh is this a proven statistic? lol
> 
> "bound to get on up on you" so horses are subversive? Is this just the chicken SH%* ones? Cause I'm assuming all the ones I've ever worked with are right? lol As a tree hugger no one would have asked me to ride any non chicken $&^T horses right? Isn't this how it works? Someone educate me please!!! lol


Might not be a proven, on paper, scientific fact. But anyone that has been on top of 100 spooky, violent, mishandled, beyond repair, or whatever horses has been hurt at least once. Also, anyone that has trained at least 10 horses like that knows that you have to change up the training menu. No horse trains the same as the next, if you have ridden or trained 100 horses like that, you would know that some horses do well with "butterfly kisses" or whatever it was called earlier but some need full contact with the leather popper end of a long training stick to get the message and to keep the handler safe.


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## To ride the sky

Ok folks I have to go to the barn to feed the horses...Oh right I mean butterfly kisses, give them cookies and I'll make sure to hug a couple trees on my way back lol

*These are the last few words I'm going to say on this matter!!!*

Why do this? 



 
When you can win a reining championship like this?




 
And why do this?




 
When you can have achieve collection like this?
‪nature2promotion's Channel‬‏ - YouTube





 

Please take a moment to really think about this!!!


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## Eliz

To ride the sky said:


> Ok folks I have to go to the barn to feed the horses...Oh right I mean butterfly kisses, give them cookies and I'll make sure to hug a couple trees on my way back lol


Alright well, I think you took those comments a little personal and thats a little off topic but.. OK. Lol

On a lighter note, this thread is HUGE! I don't even want to go to bed because I know tomorrow there will be like 10 new pages that I'll have to read :shock:










Hehe jk, just some comic relief. I'm enjoying the discussion.


----------



## heartprints62

Ok, well I thought this thread was about Clinton Anderson, but both of those "Don't do this" videos were other people... and I COMPLETELY agree with you on those videos. The man, Craig, in the first video is continuously snatching on the horses mouth!! Slap him off that horse!!! And the Anky video is very obviously Rollkur, which we have already established that CA does NOT do. 
I admire Stacey Westfall very much, but there again, her methods are very different from Clinton Anderson, so thats not an apple to apple comparison.


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## wild_spot

I'll repost this video. This is not lateral flexion, this is not even overbending to correct. This is not a natural head set. This is HYPERFLEXION:

Actually... I would LOVE for my horse to be able to do that!! Do you know how hard it is to get a horse that maneuverable? It is all but impossible if they are over OR under bent. I'm not commenting on the original pics or on this big, crazy debate - but I don't see that video as a good example of rollkur.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Sorry to rise the sky but those Dressage videos you posted don't show collection. A video of Jan Ebeling or other would have done.

Just popping in to say that were that guy a no name in a Dressage saddle, all yall would be jumping down OPs a hole saying "o yea Rolkur is seeeeewww eeevil" and having a large discussion about how terrible competitive Dressage is.
Don't fight it, look at the picture and imagine a top hat and Dressage saddle.

As yall know I'm not some twig waving "pansy" about horse training. Not saying horses don't need jobs, not saying conditioned horses don't need to be out in an ugly frame for a short period of time to correct something. Just look in the mirror sometimes and the next time someone is peeved at kittel, werth, van grunsven or other for a low frame not to jump on the Dressage is evil bandwagon. Please and thank you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peggysue

To ride the sky said:


> So a horse or person has to get hurt be accepted in to your exclusive non Koolaid, no chicken ShI% horses allowed club?
> 
> Hahahahaaha what a load of BS You guys are too much!!!
> Just because I'm exposing CA for what he really is and saying I don't like it makes me a brainwashed follower? lol You guys really don't have a leg to stand on sorry!!! lol


Me thinks you need to READ everything I have written I absolutely HATE CA but if you haven't had a wreck or two or three then you aren't riding you are playing... I am 41 yo's and while I haven't been hopitlized YET I have had some pretty bad wrecks in my lifetime of riding as in I don't ever remember NOT owning and riding horses. If you haven't ridden the crazies or unbroke wild ones you haven't rode you are a passenger on the equine ride. 

I agree CA's horses are over flexed, fearful, boarderline abused animals doesn't mean I agree with everything you say.


----------



## Peggysue

to top it off he is rude, obnoxious and coincided and yes I have MET him in person and seen him be rude to some little girls that just wanted his autograph!! He is also a bad sport and wow I could go on and on


----------



## franknbeans

Ride-do you really think you need to SHOUT at us just because we don't agree with you? Personally, I find it rude.

Shoving it down our throats is not going to change how some of us feel about this. We disagree. Grow up and accept that sometimes that is the case. Just because you think you are smarter, with an IQ of whatever.....does NOT make you better, nor does it make your opinion worth more, or the only one.

Eliz-LOVE THIS!


----------



## natisha

I think CA is gaining weight too fast. I hope he doesn't get a Parelli bellie.


----------



## Doe

Peggysue said:


> how many of you have actually sat and watched CA ride anything BESIDES videos??
> 
> I have watched him at RTTH 3 or 4 times now and there is NOTHING natural about his training reminds me of the old days of running the horse in the round pen until they didn't have any air left to fight.
> 
> I watched his THREE YEAR OLD suck back everytime he touched the reins!! IT wasn't soft it was fear and watching in person you can SEE it in the horses eyes and the tension in the horse's body


+1 my exact experience too. He has no 'feel' for the horse anymore. He has a set regime which is applied to every horse and it'd about overpowering the horses mind as fast as possible, and endless micromanagement. As I said. Soul-less Robots and all sold under the NH banner and justified in that he sells to people that unfortunately know no better. Often times new horse owners, who fear their horses, and he convinces them that every horse will dominate you if you do not do what he says.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

franknbeans said:


> WOW! Lots I have missed! and thanks, AB for throwing me to the wolves! JK.
> 
> Yes, my horse is backing up. Yes he is VERY soft. Such that he will look just like that totally bridleless and halterless, so it CLEARLY cannot be that he is afraid of pain, now can it?
> 
> It is clear that once again we are getting into a "no win" debate. There is the crowd whom I would personally consider to be the more common sense, good horsemen types, like Kevin, who can most likely train a pretty good mount! Can anyone win with every single thing they do-NO! Is it smart to continue to beat yourself up because you cannot win with a particular horse? NO! Move on. If it involves getting rid of said horse, then so be it.
> 
> Then there is what I call the "tree hugger" types. Doe, and a couple of others would fall in here. To this group-do you realize that not every horse will respond to your "butterflies and kisses" methods either? Life cannot always be .....what did you call it?......"harmony". Sorry, but life just isn;t that way.
> 
> BSMS-great analogy with the service. After being close to a SEAL, and what they go thru-horses sure have it easy, even the working ones for the most part. It IS all conditioning tho, as someone else said-my horse thinks that 1 hour a day is WAY too much....even tho he gets the other 23 to do what he pleases.
> 
> If you want to blame someone for "cruel" things done to horses, blame the show world. People have to win to make money, and to win, sometimes the horses are asked to do uncomfortable things, and yes, some are cruel. None of this will change until the judging changes. Reining, IMO, is NOT one of the cruel ones at all. Open your eyes and look around.
> 
> Reiners are the epitame of great training, IMO. They are taught to be exceedingly soft and responsive. Any horse that will spin itself into the ground basically....and stop when I lower my hand(and not the one with the reins).....pretty amazing. Cruel-NO.



Sorry I threw you under the bus.
The only good side, there is shade under the bus. Shade is a good thing with crazy heat.

Really I brought you up because I knew you would make some good points, and you came through. Good post.



kitten_Val said:


> There is no such thing as "perfect" method. :wink: Horses (like people) are very different and approach should be different too. Good horseman is not the one using a "perfect method", but the one, who knows how to deal with given horse in given situation.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner!


----------



## franknbeans

^^ Thanks AB! The shade under here IS nice.....:lol:


----------



## BoxT

.Delete. said:


> When all else fails I will glady shock the poopy out of my horse if it means saving his teeth or his life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a cribber who is kept managed by keeping him in pasture using a Dare collar, slow feeder, neighlox and rice bran. His teeth are fine and he has never shown signs of colic. Cribbers do take management and do not do well in the show environment. But shocking an animal that is already in pain is just wrong.


----------



## Doe

Allison Finch said:


> I do
> 
> 
> 
> I do.
> 
> The horse in my avatar was a grown breeding stallion who was so rank that no one wanted to put him under saddle. The owners had me work with him and within two weeks this horse was a totally different horse. Who said that because I use softer techniques I cannot instill discipline?
> 
> 
> 
> I have....in three disciplines.
> 
> 
> 
> So, just because I don't "manhandle" my horses in a negative way means I am unable to produce a well mannered respectful horse? You need to talk to the owners of the horses I've trained and showed. They may beg to differ.
> 
> 
> 
> In agree. I have been around wonderful reiners and all but a few were fabulous horses. A couple were very intimidated horses who were robotic. But they were the product of a trainer most of the other reiners also disliked. I could show you equally sad horses that wear English saddles, too
> 
> 
> 
> careful with assumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said they were all abused. I said I don't believe in rollkur- in ANY of its forms no matter who uses it. THAT is, after all, what this thread is about. NOT English vs Reining, as it seems to have morphed to.
> 
> 
> 
> Then we simply disagree. I can't look at either of those photos and not think it abusive, personally.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, self carriage is the whole goal of dressage. I have managed to train mighty competitive horses to grand prix without using anything the even resembles rollkur. But, maybe I'm just lucky.
> 
> I am not a NH person. However, I do use a few of their techniques. Most of the glitz I simply smile at.


Well said!!



> Quote:
> Anyone that thinks a well mannered, respectful 'finished' horse (particularly a reiner) is a mindless robot has never ridden or even been around one. They are anything BUT mindless robots. They are the absolute culmination of good breeding (for athletic ability and a mind that wants to be trained) and good training -- that illusive quality know among us trainers as 'trainability'.


Too many people making assumptions. I currently have 3 ex european reiners in my care. These horses competed at world and European level. Being european they may not be upto your US standards, but in natural horse terms they suffer the same human *******isation of the species that i see consistently.

By 'good breeding' you mean marionette puppies that are easily broken of any spirit so that anyone can feel like a capable rider and master? They carry hooves that are too small for their body. Thinner and thiner legs. Out of proportion rumps and commonly downhill. Tight chests and weak digestion. 

You see good breeding. I see sadness.

I have worked with hundreds of ex-racehorses. Literally. Getting them safe to be lead and handled without tearing off etc etc. Helping them become good recreational companions for weekend riders, eventers etc.

Yet the ex-reiners, are by far the hardest (and soul destroying) challenge. Sure they often lead well etc etc but they have a lot of physical issues, and mentally? Mentally they are bi-polar. Quiet as kittens but totally introverted and uninterested in the world. Release them and allow them to think and they cannot handle it at first. They explode and demonstrate 'aggression' (not that that is what it is). It takes a long time to see them enjoying life again. Having 'fun' not carrying the weight of the world. To see their spirit again. 3 years it's taken with my own ex-reiner until I understood what was going on.

So I will ask just one thing. For those of you who consider that what CA is doing with the flexion to be ok. On what do you base that? Are you confident that you have sufficient anatomical understanding to be absolutely sure.

My problem is that so many people accept methods with little understanding of the physiological and anatomical impact. If you really want to be a better trainer then study some anatomy. Work with horses that have been subjected to various methods of training. That will make you a better trainer.


----------



## franknbeans

Doe, I am sorry that you feel that way about your ex reiners. I think that some of us can agree that top show horses, in ANY discipline, can be mentally damaged. It certainly is NOT limited to reiners at all, and in my opinion, does not have to do with the flexion. Many (too many, imo) show horses are treated like "hot house flowers" They are not turned out, not ridden other than to do their specific job. It has always been my observation and opinion that turn out is essential and it is mentally wonderful to diversify when riding and do an occcassional relaxed trail type ride with any horse. This is just MY opinion, and how I treat MY horses. I find that then, when I ask for performance, altho I certainly am FAR from top level at all, they are more willing. A dear friend of mine currently has her mare in training with a top reining trainer. She deals daily with the turn out controversy. She is anxious for the training to be done so that in the fall she can bring her mare home and let her be a horse for a while. Trail ride, turn out and all. Yet, at that point she will hopefully have the best of both worlds and have a mare that can compete at top levels and live the good life.


----------



## Doe

franknbeans said:


> Doe, I am sorry that you feel that way about your ex reiners. I think that some of us can agree that top show horses, in ANY discipline, can be mentally damaged. It certainly is NOT limited to reiners at all, and in my opinion, does not have to do with the flexion. Many (too many, imo) show horses are treated like "hot house flowers" They are not turned out, not ridden other than to do their specific job. It has always been my observation and opinion that turn out is essential and it is mentally wonderful to diversify when riding and do an occcassional relaxed trail type ride with any horse. This is just MY opinion, and how I treat MY horses. I find that then, when I ask for performance, altho I certainly am FAR from top level at all, they are more willing. A dear friend of mine currently has her mare in training with a top reining trainer. She deals daily with the turn out controversy. She is anxious for the training to be done so that in the fall she can bring her mare home and let her be a horse for a while. Trail ride, turn out and all. Yet, at that point she will hopefully have the best of both worlds and have a mare that can compete at top levels and live the good life.


FranknBeans

I totally agree with you there. Turnout is essential IMO to a horses sanity. My own ex-reiner had NEVER been turned out without another horse since being a foal. He didn't know how to be a horse and at first it was difficult to introduce him to a herd. He had also never left the sports yard, yet alone go near a car, trees, anything really.

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not believe that there isn't a middle ground. I am sure there is.


----------



## bsms

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ...Just popping in to say that were that guy a no name in a Dressage saddle, all yall would be jumping down OPs a hole saying "o yea Rolkur is seeeeewww eeevil" and having a large discussion about how terrible competitive Dressage is.
> Don't fight it, look at the picture and imagine a top hat and Dressage saddle...





To ride the sky said:


> ...Why do this?
> ‪Craig Schmersal - FEI World Reining Final 2011‬‏ - YouTube
> 
> And why do this?
> ‪Anky Van Grunsven Hyperflexion/Rollkur‬‏ - YouTube
> 
> ...Please take a moment to really think about this!!!


I have no idea who Craig Schmersal is or how he trains horses. However, look at the difference in how the reins are handled between Craig & Anky. Craig is using a trained cue. That doesn't mean I like how he performs cues, but it is a far cry from what Anky does.

I dislike the idea of 'headset'. It seems apparent that judges in many discipline disagree with me, but I see no relation between headset and collection or submission or willingness or anything else good in riding. It seems like a fad.

However, it isn't what CA says to do in training your horse, and I haven't seen a video here where he is practicing rollkur. Where are the videos of him riding around, pulling hard on the reins like Anky while braced in the saddle? Where is the 'blue tongue' video of CA? Loose reins are NOT rollkur.

And no, I'm not a fan of his. I own one book - which was the first of many books I've bought on horse training and techniques. I've quoted where it says to use gentle pressure and release immediately at first response.

The video posted on this thread was the first video I've seen of him. And yes, I've read on this forum that he doesn't seem very nice. But that is all different from saying he teaches and promotes rollkur.

As for rollkur itself: I am absolutely certain that I dislike it and would pull anyone who tried it on my horse off - but that isn't the same as saying it causes health issues.


----------



## rlcarnes

To ride the sky said:


> Do you lack the ability to understand an analogy? Or in words you may be able to grasp have you ever heard of a metaphore or speaking figuratively?
> 
> Carrots = carrots, salad = grass/grazing, oatmeal = oats/mash/bran/beatpulp, rollkur (which he endorsed) would be the equivalent of holding your head to your chest and putting blinders on as it greatly limits their ability to see. I'm sure they would get at minimum very harsh kick if they refused to do something he was asking of them and all of this would make them more likely to become injured, hence the disability insurance remark since they are his 'employees' after all.
> 
> My point if you still can't figure it out is that Kevin is referring to his horses as employees and yet would be getting reported by employee rights organizations if they truly were employees. And the most ironic aspect of all this is that he wouldn't sign up to work in this position so why should he give his 'employees' the choice to either take the position or be shot or 'gotten rid of' (don't even want to know what that means)
> 
> This is the most pathetic exposition of heartless horse people I have ever seen! I brought up this topic so that people could beware of CA's techniques but to be honest some of you are making CA look pretty good right now!!!:shock:
> 
> All I can say is I'm saddened to know there are so many people like this out there nevermind owning horses! Despicable!!!


Look if you can't handle other peoples opinions why are you on a PUBLIC forum? Al least I live in America as some of you do and others are in Free countries as well, so we are all entitled to our OWN opinions even (I know this might be a foreign concept for you...) we don't all agree. If you can't handle others opinions then please don't post on a public forum. Write it on your fb or make your own where you can moderate it. You shouldn't get to belittle others just because you are ticked off that people don't like what you have to say. 

As for the topic at hand- Over flexed yes- abusive no as long as it it used properly- like for suppling etc. As for the posters that use their horse for "real" work and not just fluffy stuff (Nothing wrong with fluffy stuff- I'm one of em too ) I commend you. I'm sure that your horses are probably some of the most well taken care of horses on this Forum. I am POSITIVE that the real worker horses get breaks and water throughout the long hot work day. If you consider that rough than at what temperature do you stop riding? Do you also have the same opinion of people who show their horses in 100+ degree weather (forget the fact that most horse are pampered and have fans and water when ever they want)? I just wondered.

Just remember that when you point one finger at some one you have three pointing back at you  JMO


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

bsms said:


> I dislike the idea of 'headset'. It seems apparent that judges in many discipline disagree with me, but I see no relation between headset and collection or submission or willingness


I agree bsms! Look at any WP horse with it's ears below it's withers and it's legs trailing back behind it while it tropes....there is definitely no collection there regardless of having the current in fashion headset.


----------



## rlcarnes

farmpony84 said:


> I'm probably supposed to yell at you for that chicken poop comment but it reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines...
> 
> "You know that little white speck on top of the chicken...poopie.... It's still chicken....poopie"


Pure Country I love that movie!!!!


----------



## A knack for horses

bsms said:


> Flexing, as described in CA's book, is NOT rollkur. It is not hyperflexing, either. It is stretching.
> 
> As a runner, I've done some stretching. Stretching is going just past the comfort point, but not to pain. With time, you can stretch to a point that would have caused you pain before.
> 
> In the book that I quoted, it was explained that one of the horses used couldn't go as far, and that you need to work with what the horse can give. In flexing exercises, you are ASKING the horse to stretch, not pulling on the reins and using brute force and pain to create an artificial stretch.
> 
> Does CA follow his own writing? I don't know - I've never watched him do anything. But look at the picture you showed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't look like a brute force, brace yourself in the saddle and overpower the horse pull to me. It also isn't straight back. Unlike rollkur, it involves lateral movement as well.
> 
> I do these with my mare - with no bit, and using two fingers on the rein. I ask her for a bit more stretch, using my fingers, and release all pull when she gives it.
> 
> The idea is to teach the HORSE to stretch itself, not to be the horse's stretching partner.
> 
> And why do I do this with my mare? To CALM her. Yes, I do 'rollkur' to calm my mare. When she starts to spin up over something, I ask her to stretch and refocus on me. With a few stretches, her body relaxes and then her mind relaxes. It is the same thing as a head down cue - "refocus on me, not the scary thing, stretch, relax, OK, let's go on riding".
> 
> I've never watched CA in motion, so all I can go by is what he wrote. And what he wrote is NOT rollkur. It is teaching the horse to stretch, relax, settle, focus,and continue.
> 
> And it MAY be that he does it while doing demos to help show what a horse CAN do.
> 
> Oh, and my mare is an Arabian. I have no desire for her to tuck her head. If she gets strung out and starts pulling herself from the front, I'll give a gentle pull on the rein (my instructor refers to it as a 'soft touch' rather than a half-halt, to emphasize how it needs to be done) and ask her to shift her weight back a bit. We don't use a bit, and she can move her head where she feels comfortable.
> 
> My oldest daughter riding Mia on a 'good day':


:clap:

Well said!


----------



## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> Well said!!
> 
> 
> 
> Too many people making assumptions. I currently have 3 ex european reiners in my care. These horses competed at world and European level. Being european they may not be upto your US standards, but in natural horse terms they suffer the same human *******isation of the species that i see consistently.
> 
> By 'good breeding' you mean marionette puppies that are easily broken of any spirit so that anyone can feel like a capable rider and master? They carry hooves that are too small for their body. Thinner and thiner legs. Out of proportion rumps and commonly downhill. Tight chests and weak digestion.
> 
> *Although the breeding on reiners is improving in Europe the vast majority that are there would be consider not so good here.*
> 
> You see good breeding. I see sadness.
> *Then you have not truly seen a well bred good reining horse. They love their job and do it well. *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet the ex-reiners, are by far the hardest (and soul destroying) challenge. Sure they often lead well etc etc but they have a lot of physical issues, and mentally? Mentally they are bi-polar. Quiet as kittens but totally introverted and uninterested in the world. Release them and allow them to think and they cannot handle it at first. They explode and demonstrate 'aggression' (not that that is what it is). It takes a long time to see them enjoying life again. Having 'fun' not carrying the weight of the world. To see their spirit again. 3 years it's taken with my own ex-reiner until I understood what was going on.
> 
> *Again you have not been around good well bred well trained reining horses. Not saying that what you are seeing is not there it most likely is. However the fact is that you are judging an entire industry by what 3 EUROPEAN reiners? I have been doing NRHA reining for a long time. 97% of the horses I have worked owned and seen show love their jobs. They live to perform. The ones who have not loved it where culled into other work where they where much much happier. Reiners I know do many other things including over events in other shows like reined cow horse roping and they all trail ride.
> *
> So I will ask just one thing. For those of you who consider that what CA is doing with the flexion to be ok. On what do you base that? Are you confident that you have sufficient anatomical understanding to be absolutely sure.
> 
> *Again I have been reining for a long time. What CA is trying to accomplish is a supple soft horse. When done correctly that is exactly what you get. CA is known for horses who do not have the best head set. Keep in mind that CA is not a reining trainer. He has very limited earnings in NRHA. HE is simple a business many then trainer. Past that I will not comment as it does not need to be posted on an open forum.*
> 
> My problem is that so many people accept methods with little understanding of the physiological and anatomical impact. If you really want to be a better trainer then study some anatomy. Work with horses that have been subjected to various methods of training. That will make you a better trainer.


Those of us who actually do reining know exactly what he is doing and why and what the end results is or at least should be. 

Ex: Take my reining mare. A friend asked if her sister could ride one of my reiners. Normally I let them ride my stallion but the farrier cut him a bit short a few days earlier so I let her ride Cassie.

Anyway. She was up there after I gave her a few pointers on how to ride her. Anyway she started out well and was going good. The mare started to trot and was getting faster then what she was comfortable with. So like any rider who does not ride a reiner and has not ridden much in years. She pulled back on the reins and put her legs on the horse. What do you think the mare did? She did what she was trained to do. She put her nose in towards her chest and pushed her rear into the bit. There are many reasons to do this. One is what happened next. I could see what was happening and that the mare is getting confused b/c she was doing what was asked and not getting any relief. So I yelled for her to drop her hand down and give the horse some slack in the reins. When she did the horse put her head down kept her head in the vertical and relaxed. What she was being cued to do was to bridle up and relax and keep the rear driving up under herself. What this does is allow me to push the horse into the stop but keep them with the proper frame and most importantly keeping them relaxed up front. If they are not relaxed up front and driving from the rear when you ask for the stop nothing good is going to happen. Chances are that in the best case the horse will scotch and have a really bad stop. Worst case you are going over the horses head.


----------



## Allison Finch

franknbeans said:


> A dear friend of mine currently has her mare in training with a top reining trainer. She deals daily with the turn out controversy. She is anxious for the training to be done so that in the fall she can bring her mare home and let her be a horse for a while. Trail ride, turn out and all. Yet, at that point she will hopefully have the best of both worlds and have a mare that can compete at top levels and live the good life.


But I have to ask....why does this horse have to "suffer" through its training this way? Even my top competition horses only work five days a week, they trailride one day and are off one day to play in the pasture with their buddies. I think a bite or kick mark is well worth having the horse "live the good life" 

Horses should not have to "suffer" their training for the training to be valuable.


----------



## rlcarnes

Allison Finch said:


> But I have to ask....why does this horse have to "suffer" through its training this way? Even my top competition horses only work five days a week, they trailride one day and are off one day to play in the pasture with their buddies. I think a bite or kick mark is well worth having the horse "live the good life"
> 
> Horses should not have to "suffer" their training for the training to be valuable.


I totally agree. I'm not a tree hugger  but I do wholeheartedly believe that horses need a chance to be horses. Let them get out and stretch out a bit it does wonders for the mind. Besides competition horses get so much goop put on before entering the ring- you won't even know it was there--- shoe polish anyone


----------



## Allison Finch

> However, it isn't what CA says to do in training your horse, and I haven't seen a video here where he is practicing rollkur. Where are the videos of him riding around, pulling hard on the reins like Anky while braced in the saddle? Where is the 'blue tongue' video of CA? Loose reins are NOT rollkur.


What CA teaches and what he does is, obviously, at odds. Even though we have only seen still photos from the OP, She says the video goes on and on with him pulling that horse in. Rollkur or hyperflexed, to me the same but either way....poor training technique, IMO

As for the difference between Anky and CA. Yes Anky is using consistent pull. CA is using jerking pulls on the reins with the hands held very high. This puts more leverage on a curb bit. I have no problem with small quick "bumps". I have a problem with prolonged continual flexing, of any kind.

As for the "blue tongue" video. It has been taken way out of context. The blue tongue was a result of a horse getting his tongue between the bits of the double bridle, pinching it badly. This happens with, or without rollkur. Dressage riders learn to quickly recognize it (it is HARD to miss with an attentive rider) and correct it.

What the video shows is a rider SO involved in rollkuring his horse that he failed to notice the horse's distress and correct it. Horrible video but the rollkur, in all fairness, was not the reason the horse's tongue was caught between the bits.


----------



## Katesrider011

Allison Finch said:


> But I have to ask....why does this horse have to "suffer" through its training this way? Even my top competition horses only work five days a week, they trailride one day and are off one day to play in the pasture with their buddies. I think a bite or kick mark is well worth having the horse "live the good life"
> 
> Horses should not have to "suffer" their training for the training to be valuable.


Agreed.


----------



## farmpony84

rlcarnes said:


> Pure Country I love that movie!!!!


 
Best movie Ever!!!!


----------



## .Delete.

Simply because I give up on this thread iv said how I feel and I'm sticking to it. Arguing isn't doing any good. Btw Stacey westfall you should see her school on her horses. She is a fantastic trainer but she at times does what you guys hate oh so much. She comes to the university and schools on horses. But at Findlay we call that bending, and no I don't see fear in CAs horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## franknbeans

Allison Finch said:


> But I have to ask....why does this horse have to "suffer" through its training this way? Even my top competition horses only work five days a week, they trailride one day and are off one day to play in the pasture with their buddies. I think a bite or kick mark is well worth having the horse "live the good life"
> 
> Horses should not have to "suffer" their training for the training to be valuable.


The main reason is that to be with a top reining trainer in our area is difficult. THere are VERY few. Like 2 within about 300 miles. And those are very selective about who they take. Horse has to be a top notch prospect in order for the to consider working with them. Other than turnout, the horse is very well treated, and is getting top notch training so that she can be competitive. In the end, she will be there for about 9 months, and we will bring her home and let her be a horse for the fall and winter......then we will see. Bottom line is this horse will be able to live the vast majority of her life on several hundred lush acres, spoiled rotten like the rest of them there. Her training time will be but a blip, really. Is it ideal, no, but she will be fine in the end. It is no wonder tho, that the trainers biggest complaint is that she is "spooky".....my friend and I just look at each other like "duh"....turn her out! :? If it was really long term she would not be there. 

For many show horses I have known (several disciplines) it was not a matter of "bite or kick mark". It is fear of injury. When you have the kind of investment some people have in their horses this is a huge concern. Show season here in the east is rather short. TO lose a couple of weeks on a top horse mid season can be devastating, and, like it or not, again, there is $$ at stake.


----------



## Buckcherry

I'd like to see a video of your perfectly trained horse.. LOL


----------



## franknbeans

Buckcherry said:


> I'd like to see a video of your perfectly trained horse.. LOL


If you are talking to me, I have never said my horse is perfect. at all. Nor did I say my friends was. If I had a video I would be glad to post one.:wink:


----------



## tinyliny

I haven't made any posts here yet, so here goes.

I think there is one point that has not been raised at all in this discussion of the use of large flexions , or over flexions, as a training and suppling technique. This goes back to the anatomy of the horse's neck and the nuchal ligament, in particular.
Having a horse hyper flex in any way longitudinally puts pull on the nuchal ligament. When it is pulled so very tightly as it might during any of these suppling flexions, it becomes harder for the horse to step it's hind legs under the body. 
Thus, I can see that making the horse hyper flex (whether on a dressage type contact or the llooseer, shanked bit contact of many reining style trainers) at a standstill, might have suppling value to the neck and back. BUT, asking it to do the same deep flexion AND step under , as seen in the photos of CA at the canter with his horse's head cranked back, and ANky and . . . . This would put an uncomfortable and perhaps painful strain on the nuchal ligament.

This is my understanding based on my albeit limited knowledge of anatomy.


----------



## tinyliny

Did I kill this thread?


----------



## franknbeans

I thought maybe it was me saying get back on track.....


----------



## bsms

"A round-table conference hosted by the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) today (Tuesday 9 February) unanimously agreed that any form of aggressive riding must lead to punishment under FEI rules. 

The group — which included vets, welfare experts and eventing, dressage and show jumping officials — redefined rollkur or hyperflexion as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force". 

And they made a differentiation between rollkur and the technique of riding a horse in a low, deep and round outline, which is not achieved through force and therefore is not outlawed."

FEI outlaws rollkur - Horses for sale, Equestrian news - Horse & Hound

"Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse’s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Low, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable."

FEI ROUND TABLE CONFERENCE RESOLVES ROLLKUR CONTROVERSY | FEI.ORG

Now, does CA advocate vertical flexing using force to achieve the flex? Based on his writings, no. 

Can you teach a horse to carry his neck very flexed without using aggressive force? I'd guess yes, although I don't understand why anyone wants to, or would reward it if you did.

I can run with my arms stuck out like chicken wings, but why would I want to? Still, there would be a difference between my carrying my arms like that, and having someone else use wires to force my arms into those positions while running. The former is stupid. The latter is cruel. Neither is admirable, but they are not equivalent.


----------



## Juniper

Didn't read the whole thread, but our horses would die of boredom if they were given a half hour rest for every hour they were worked. But they are in very good shape from lots of mountain trail riding, which you can tell they love to do. Horses like a challenge and they like to use their bodies and muscles. Our horses are fed more supplements and a better diet than the humans in my family too.


----------



## Marecare

CA over flexes and over bends his horses to death.

And...I just killed this tree and milled it into lumber.


----------



## Eliz

Noooo not lumber!!!!


----------



## corinowalk

Hey, not every tree can be a Christmas tree, and some of them don't even make the cut for regular lawn ornaments. Some of them have to be axed for the greater good...

...are we still talking about trees? LOL


----------



## farmpony84

Marecare said:


> CA over flexes and over bends his horses to death.
> 
> And...I just killed this tree and milled it into lumber.


If this tree had fallen in the woods when no one was around... would it have made a sound?


----------



## Marecare

farmpony84 said:


> If this tree had fallen in the woods when no one was around... would it have made a sound?



It screamed "help me,I don't want to be lumber".

But then I did anyway.


----------



## Juniper

that is actually a very pretty photo of a felled tree. you have a good eye for composition.


----------



## Buckcherry

Franknbeans sorry I was talkin about the OP


----------



## Doe

Marecare said:


> It screamed "help me,I don't want to be lumber".
> 
> But then I did anyway.


How could you?!? I didn't even get to give it a hug!!!!:twisted:


----------



## farmpony84

Marecare said:


> It screamed "help me,I don't want to be lumber".
> 
> But then I did anyway.


That picture makes me sick! We need to put a graphical content annotation here! A tree in the slaugter house!!!


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## Spirithorse

My two cents: I'm not surprised at all that he follows Rollkur. I have personally heard him say, quote, "I don't care if my horse is behind the verticle, so long as he's soft and giving to my hands." Umm no Clinton, if the horse is behind the verticle he's HIDING from your hands. Goodness.

People who train horses for a means to an end (generally speaking) are not in it for the horse. They are in it for themselves (status, pride, ego) and/or the money. In my opinion this is not right. We should always have the horse's well being in mind. The horse is not a piece of property, he is not a machine, he is not some thing to be used to satisfy the person's ego and then be tossed away when he can no longer give the person what he wants. Show the animal some dignity.

Trainers (again generally speaking) seem to bank on getting horses that can be bullied, forced or scared into performing, because the alternative is far worse. When they get a horse like mine, who said NO to their forceful means of "training," they throw it away or kill it. My horse was going to be killed because he did not tolorate abuse. Instead of working WITH him the way that HE specifically needed to be worked with, they simply said he can't be trained, he's no good, he has no heart. Just kill him. Bring on the next one. This is not putting the horse first.

I do not understand how one can look at such a beautiful animal, with so much to offer us, and do some of these things people do to them. Who are we to think we are so above the horse that we can treat him that way? Buck Brannaman has a quote that I absolutely love, "The horse is a mirror to your soul. Sometimes you won't like what you see. Other times you will." There is so much truth to that statement. How you CHOOSE to treat the horse is a mirror to how you are as a person. I truly believe the horse is the only creature on this planet that has the ability to show us that. Then it becomes a matter of whether you choose to look into that mirror, or whether you choose to look away.


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## SEAmom

So, I haven't gone through 24 pages of posts, but what I have read in the first few pages and on the last page seems to me like a LOT of people have completely the forgotten the original use of horses. Pack animals, WAR horses, farming, transportation, cow work, and the list goes on. If you're worried about abusing a horse and hurting its feelings, don't ride them at all and let them live in a herd on a 100+ acre property with absolutely no human interaction. 

I can't believe all the bleeding heart nonsense I'm reading from some of these members. I'm assuming we're all on here because we do have an affinity for horses and don't want to see them needlessly and cruelly abused, but we ALL ride! We ALL use horses for our own purposes. There isn't a single person on here who can honestly say "I ride my horse for his/her own good. I know this to be true because he/she has told me as much." Come on, people. 

Clinton Anderson isn't beating the horse into submission, there is no blood gushing from open gaping wounds he's given them, and they aren't trying to kill him. I think he's okay. So what if the horse is behind the vertical? He didn't stab it in the side and let it stand in a round pen bleeding to death. 

Horses were domesticated to serve a purpose. Period. They were domesticated to pull farm equipment so farmers could raise crops, for armies to have mounted soldiers and an upper hand against enemies, as pack animals for travelers in the desert, as cart horses for a means of transportation for people all over the world. They weren't domesticated because all horses got together and agreed that's what was best for them. 

This nonsense about Clinton Anderson being some kind of a monster is ridiculous. You may not agree with his methods, but he is by no means a barbarian. Get over yourselves. 

Ugh! Rant over.


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## anndankev

I'm thinking maybe I should just put a post here in order to put an end to this thread. :think: :-| :? :sad:


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## tinyliny

you're a thread killer , too?


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## anndankev

Yes mam, and congratulations on becoming a moderator.


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## spirithorse8

SEAmom said:


> If you're worried about abusing a horse and hurting its feelings,
> Clinton Anderson isn't beating the horse into submission, there is no blood gushing from open gaping wounds he's given them, and they aren't trying to kill him.
> This nonsense about Clinton Anderson being some kind of a monster is ridiculous. You may not agree with his methods, but he is by no means a barbarian. Get over yourselves. Ugh! Rant over.


CA is an abuser period......USEF follows FEI rules which clearly state you cannot do anything to cause pain or discomfort to the horse. He is not the only one but through the appearances on RFD-tv and his clinics/demonstrations he has national and international exposure to horsewomen and horsemen who do not know any better.

FYI there is now a legal precedence for abuse of the horse:
2004 Washington State Supreme Court held in 118 Wn. App. 730, State v. Zawistowski, that Webster's Third New International Dictionary 1621 (1969) definition of "_pain_" as "_a state of physical or mental lack of well-being or physical or mental uneasiness that ranges from mild discomfort or dull distress to acute often unbearable agony."
_


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## .Delete.

Ahmen SEAmom!!! Very well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

Sometimes thread killing is an art....sometimes one must be less subtle


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## Druydess

SEAmom said:


> So, I haven't gone through 24 pages of posts, but what I have read in the first few pages and on the last page seems to me like a LOT of people have completely the forgotten the original use of horses. Pack animals, WAR horses, farming, transportation, cow work, and the list goes on. If you're worried about abusing a horse and hurting its feelings, don't ride them at all and let them live in a herd on a 100+ acre property with absolutely no human interaction.
> 
> I can't believe all the bleeding heart nonsense I'm reading from some of these members. I'm assuming we're all on here because we do have an affinity for horses and don't want to see them needlessly and cruelly abused, but we ALL ride! We ALL use horses for our own purposes. There isn't a single person on here who can honestly say "I ride my horse for his/her own good. I know this to be true because he/she has told me as much." Come on, people.
> 
> Clinton Anderson isn't beating the horse into submission, there is no blood gushing from open gaping wounds he's given them, and they aren't trying to kill him. I think he's okay. So what if the horse is behind the vertical? He didn't stab it in the side and let it stand in a round pen bleeding to death.
> 
> Horses were domesticated to serve a purpose. Period. They were domesticated to pull farm equipment so farmers could raise crops, for armies to have mounted soldiers and an upper hand against enemies, as pack animals for travelers in the desert, as cart horses for a means of transportation for people all over the world. They weren't domesticated because all horses got together and agreed that's what was best for them.
> 
> This nonsense about Clinton Anderson being some kind of a monster is ridiculous. You may not agree with his methods, but he is by no means a barbarian. Get over yourselves.
> 
> Ugh! Rant over.


WELL said SeaMom!- couldn't improve on your rant one bit! Wholeheartedly agree..


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## bsms

spirithorse8 said:


> ...FYI there is now a legal precedence for abuse of the horse:
> 
> 2004 Washington State Supreme Court held in 118 Wn. App. 730, State v. Zawistowski, that Webster's Third New International Dictionary 1621 (1969) definition of "_pain_" as "_a state of physical or mental lack of well-being or physical or mental uneasiness that ranges from mild discomfort or dull distress to acute often unbearable agony."_


Mild discomfort? By that definition, any riding is abuse. And I abuse myself by getting out of bed in the morning, or skipping my coffee...:shock:


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## franknbeans

spirithorse8 said:


> CA is an abuser period......USEF follows FEI rules which clearly state you cannot do anything to cause pain or discomfort to the horse. He is not the only one but through the appearances on RFD-tv and his clinics/demonstrations he has national and international exposure to horsewomen and horsemen who do not know any better.
> 
> FYI there is now a legal precedence for abuse of the horse:
> 2004 Washington State Supreme Court held in 118 Wn. App. 730, State v. Zawistowski, that Webster's Third New International Dictionary 1621 (1969) definition of "_pain_" as "_a state of physical or mental lack of well-being or physical or mental uneasiness that ranges from mild discomfort or dull distress to acute often unbearable agony."_


Agree totally with BSMS. By this definition, we should not be giving them shots or anything! That, after all, causes them "mild discomfort". 

Ridiculous. Yes, that is MY opinion, just like CA being any more of an abuser than any person who does anything with any horse is is YOUR opinion. You never, ever cause your horse or any other animal "mild discomfort?" Really? :roll:


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## equiniphile

franknbeans said:


> Agree totally with BSMS. By this definition, we should not be giving them shots or anything! That, after all, causes them "mild discomfort".


And nailing shoes onto their feet?? Farriers should be locked up.


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## farmpony84

Wait! I just figured it out... This is a Clint Anderson bashing thread! How did I miss that?


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## Allison Finch

You missed nothing. This thread is circular....just keeps going on and on saying the same things....by the same people (myself included)...ad infinitum.

I think we have all stated our positions and little more can be added, IMO.


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## franknbeans

Think I will switch over to the "why are there so many nh haters" thread.....little change of pace. Hahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annnie31

Im never going on holidays again. I missed way too much!! )) and its all been said...(smiling)


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

kevinshorses said:


> I don't think you can call that rollkur. The horses mouth is closed and there is no pressure on the reins or on the horses mouth. I don't like how the horse is so over bent but I'm not a reiner. As far as loping his horse for 40 whole minutes without a rest being cruel, I must be the horse worlds version of Hitler because I ride my horses on hot or cold or rainy days for several hours without much of a break. They are conditioned and fed well (as I'm sure Clintons are ) but they have a job to do and we often can't stop until it is done.
> 
> Perhaps if you are looking at Mindy and seeing the kind of horse you would like to have you shouldn't be so quick to critisize how she came to be that horse.


The horse in the pics wasnt Mindy looked to me like Diez either way I like him and his horses look extremely well cared for after all they are used to the Texas heat. Sometimes people need to realize some horses have a job that means they do more than sit in a stall or pasture all day.


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