# The American DNA Registry,for all breeds and the grade horse.



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

In order to prove parentage you (as in you the owner) must supply the case numbers to compare your individual's DNA to. It cannot randomly assign parentage and the three breed analysis is just like the Tx A&M one. It will match the markers and tell you what it is likely to have in its ancestry but not percentage or certain breed. From my understanding it will do one or the other. The first if you have a registered horse and the names and numbers of the parents you think it could be OR if a grade horse the breed analysis.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft barge pole and if that was the 'registration' someone showed me for a horse I was looking at as a purchase, I would walk away quickly. And as for cost effectiveness, no, it's not. My APHA registration cost me $40, AQHA $40, Pinto $25.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It also does not prove ownership. Just that you had access to the Horse to send in DNA sample. If they have a transfer system for buying and selling then that helps but still your paper work is only goid if kept up.


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> In order to prove parentage you (as in you the owner) must supply the case numbers to compare your individual's DNA to. It cannot randomly assign parentage and the three breed analysis is just like the Tx A&M one. It will match the markers and tell you what it is likely to have in its ancestry but not percentage or certain breed. From my understanding it will do one or the other. The first if you have a registered horse and the names and numbers of the parents you think it could be OR if a grade horse the breed analysis.


I understand your point but I think that the 4 conformation photos would, in most cases, tie the animal to the registry numbers on the paper. And I think that's where this registry differs from breed registries, a third party can request a test to confirm the animals identity. Also, it would be beneficial to the seller to facilitate the sale by sharing or covering the cost. If he or she did not help then the prospective buyer would most likely walk .I know I would, for sure!


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> It also does not prove ownership. Just that you had access to the Horse to send in DNA sample. If they have a transfer system for buying and selling then that helps but still your paper work is only goid if kept up.


 Yes I agree, it wouldn't be 100% verifiable you would need a third party in the process, like a registered veterinarian, and that would drive up cost and reduce enrolment.


So, in your opinion the information on the registration along with the sellers identification is not enough for proof of ownership?


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft barge pole and if that was the 'registration' someone showed me for a horse I was looking at as a purchase, I would walk away quickly. And as for cost effectiveness, no, it's not. My APHA registration cost me $40, AQHA $40, Pinto $25.


 Does your registration include DNA identification?, if so, that would be hard to beat and a great deal!


So you would only buy a breed specific registered horse, fair enough.


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

WereAway said:


> I understand your point but I think that the 4 conformation photos would, in most cases, tie the animal to the registry numbers on the paper. And I think that's where this registry differs from breed registries, a third party can request a test to confirm the animals identity. Also, it would be beneficial to the seller to facilitate the sale by sharing or covering the cost. If he or she did not help then the prospective buyer would most likely walk .I know I would, for sure!


 Also, you could add a condition of sale to the agreement, the transfer occurs upon conformation. Or if you want to take the animal a condition of return but get it in writing!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@WereAway When a foal is born you have to send in 4 pictures (front, right, left and back) as well as the DNA for the foal and it is matched to the parents which is already on file. Many registries started collecting DNA for registration purposes 20 (or more) years ago. Now a days it is not voluntary it is mandatory. Part of the registration also includes testing for genetic disorders and filing all the requisite paperwork beforehand. For example I have a stallion. In order for him to be eligible to breed he has to have DNA on file and genetic disorder testing. Then the year I use him I have to send in a breeding report that says who he was bred to and when. The next year the registry sends out a form that is preprinted with his info and the mare's info to the mare owner. That is what they use to registre the foal and it is matched through the DNA you send with it. Because you have to have an owner listed this is all tracked through your registry and if you sell a foal (or older horse) you fill out the paperwork and their records follow them for the life of the horse. All for the a small fee. The registries that allow crossing to other breeds will require the cross information from their approved registry along with all of their accession numbers so that you can prove parentage by the DNA they have on file. The only way this system fails is if someone doesn't turn in the paperwork or complete a transfer. Then as far as the registry is concerned the owner is the person listed until a transfer is done. If you the new owner thinks for some reason I as the seller am not selling you the horse on the registry papers then you send in a sample for them to match. You pay for that service. There are not (ideally) random horse papers floating around. You as a member of the breed registry agree to ammend the papers if you alter the horse or the horse dies. So if I geld my stallion I have to tell them, send in my certificate for that horse and they send out a new certificate stating the horse has been gelded. Now lets say I was dishonest and didn't tell them that but bought a cheapo stallion from an auction that physically matches that horse, I feed him up and put enough time on him to turn him. My horse has a proven record so I sell this ringer with those papers. I get caught the minute someone tries to register a baby off that ringer. The DNA won't match. But hey you bought a horse that had papers. 



Grade horses - if you have a bill of sale from the person that sold it to you, you can assume you own the horse unless it was stolen and then sold, which opens a can of worm if the actual owner shows up because they saw their horse in your field on FaceBook. A registered horse would not need the service this company offers and a grade horse while it maybe nice to know there is DNA on file somewhere if your horse is stolen it is not the same as a breed registry. No vet is going to document horse sales. they will come do a PPE or vaccinate if the horse is crossing state lines and needs a different set than they have or pull and fill out the paperwork for coggins or a health certificate. 



This association I think was originally for clones. Anywho. You don't need a third party to verify sales - you just need a transfer system that people USE. Most people that buy grade could care less about anything but recovering a stolen horse and there is microchipping for that. If I bought a grade horse that had been microchipped I would expect you to turn over that information. If I did a PPE on a grade I would ask the vet to check for a chip.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WereAway said:


> Does your registration include DNA identification?, if so, that would be hard to beat and a great deal!
> 
> 
> So you would only buy a breed specific registered horse, fair enough.


In order to register the foals both mare & stallion DNA is on file with the breed registry. Since they are already on file, as long as I do either hand breeding or collect the stallion and AI the mare myself, no DNA test is needed from the foal because I certify that I did the breeding and this foal is the result. If there was ever a question, then they would verify parentage by DNA. Shipped semen and Frozen Semen or Embryo transfers all have to be DNA'd for parentage before the registry will issue the papers on the foal. 

Also because I have tested my mares & stallion for hereditary diseases and the results are on file, the foals don't need to be tested. So I have no extra costs at this point because I've already done all that. 

And you're correct, I don't look outside the breeds I've chosen and would not ever look at a grade horse. I want that heritage and history.


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> @*WereAway* When a foal is born you have to send in 4 pictures (front, right, left and back) as well as the DNA for the foal and it is matched to the parents which is already on file. Many registries started collecting DNA for registration purposes 20 (or more) years ago. Now a days it is not voluntary it is mandatory. Part of the registration also includes testing for genetic disorders and filing all the requisite paperwork beforehand. For example I have a stallion. In order for him to be eligible to breed he has to have DNA on file and genetic disorder testing. Then the year I use him I have to send in a breeding report that says who he was bred to and when. The next year the registry sends out a form that is preprinted with his info and the mare's info to the mare owner. That is what they use to registre the foal and it is matched through the DNA you send with it. Because you have to have an owner listed this is all tracked through your registry and if you sell a foal (or older horse) you fill out the paperwork and their records follow them for the life of the horse. All for the a small fee. The registries that allow crossing to other breeds will require the cross information from their approved registry along with all of their accession numbers so that you can prove parentage by the DNA they have on file. The only way this system fails is if someone doesn't turn in the paperwork or complete a transfer. Then as far as the registry is concerned the owner is the person listed until a transfer is done. If you the new owner thinks for some reason I as the seller am not selling you the horse on the registry papers then you send in a sample for them to match. You pay for that service. There are not (ideally) random horse papers floating around. You as a member of the breed registry agree to ammend the papers if you alter the horse or the horse dies. So if I geld my stallion I have to tell them, send in my certificate for that horse and they send out a new certificate stating the horse has been gelded. Now lets say I was dishonest and didn't tell them that but bought a cheapo stallion from an auction that physically matches that horse, I feed him up and put enough time on him to turn him. My horse has a proven record so I sell this ringer with those papers. I get caught the minute someone tries to register a baby off that ringer. The DNA won't match. But hey you bought a horse that had papers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I see and that was an awesome explanation, It sounds like a very detailed and thorough system. It seems there is a large element of distrust in the replies so far, excluding yours of coarse. Further more, the comments seemed to not apply the same burden of proof across the board when comparing the two systems. However, your explanation clearly demonstrates a superior system when comparing a registered breed registry. However, in most normal circumstances, it would stand to reason that if a seller of a non registered animal followed the above steps, he or she would be most likely be deemed trust worthy. And the system would allow for undisputable paternal links, just as you have highlighted above. Yeah,the clone thing I knew that would come up, a future thread perhaps:smile:


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> In order to register the foals both mare & stallion DNA is on file with the breed registry. Since they are already on file, as long as I do either hand breeding or collect the stallion and AI the mare myself, no DNA test is needed from the foal because I certify that I did the breeding and this foal is the result. If there was ever a question, then they would verify parentage by DNA. Shipped semen and Frozen Semen or Embryo transfers all have to be DNA'd for parentage before the registry will issue the papers on the foal.
> 
> Also because I have tested my mares & stallion for hereditary diseases and the results are on file, the foals don't need to be tested. So I have no extra costs at this point because I've already done all that.
> 
> And you're correct, I don't look outside the breeds I've chosen and would not ever look at a grade horse. I want that heritage and history.


Fair enough, I understand you want what you want and all the power to you, I'm not trying to make this about breeds it was a question about of registry.
Although, I'm sure the grade horse has some historical value seems as it most likely helped build this great country of ours along with your preferred breed and many others.:smile:


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

It sorta begs the question of the purpose of a registry at all. Which is a useful thing to examine.

A registry is, mostly, a tracking system for breeding animals. It is intended to verify as much as possible that x stallion was mated to x mare and produced x offspring, the name, date of birth of which, color, sex, etc., being then a matter of public record, for as long as the registry exists. 

Registries have other functions. Prestige being the largest. I think that's where the impetus for "all breed and no breed" registries comes from. Since an official-looking piece of paper magically confers more value and importance to registered horses, why can't it do the same for my grade or crossbred horse? 

A registry for grade animals is not going to be seen as particularly valuable to most owners though. To begin with, most grades are not bred, so don't need a breeding record. They often don't have any verifiable parentage either. So what is the point of recording them? I have a couple grades, who might be typical -- one was a purebred who ended up paperless at the SPCA, the other also looks well-bred but ten years ago was picked up at an auction without any accompanying ID. I don't even have a bill of sale for the last one. They were both given to me. The SPCA microchipped the first one, and I'll do the same to the other when I get a chance. That's the best I can do for them. 

It's not that grades don't have value, historical or otherwise. It's just that most of them have a past lost in the mist. Registering them won't change that.


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## WereAway (Aug 5, 2018)

Avna said:


> It sorta begs the question of the purpose of a registry at all. Which is a useful thing to examine.
> 
> A registry is, mostly, a tracking system for breeding animals. It is intended to verify as much as possible that x stallion was mated to x mare and produced x offspring, the name, date of birth of which, color, sex, etc., being then a matter of public record, for as long as the registry exists.
> 
> ...


 An excellent point, and if people started a verifiable registry for the grade horse and eventually constructed a history, then it wouldn't fit the definition of a grade horse.
How about an alternative registry, say a Horse Health Registry verifiable be the professional association of veterinarians. Has your horse be to the vet lately?
Not a literal question just a figure of speech for the new registry.


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