# Decker or Crossbuck pack saddles?



## Darrin

I have a Decker but never used a crossbuck so can't really weigh in on what is better. I will say I like my Decker due to the ease of putting packs, makes it much easier for the beginner packer I think. I've been told by experienced crossbuck users they can load up in minutes but takes tyros forever.

As for panniers, I've learned to appreciate hard panniers for several reasons. They give you a seat in camp, keep your stuff dry and most importantly if you keep the lid on at all times they are mouse proof. On the flip side, when a mouse gets in they cant get out again.


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## TrailheadSupply

This may require a phone call....I own a packing supply store and build both decker and sawbuck pack saddles if you have any questions feel free to give us a call. There is nothing wrong with a sawbuck been around forever and ever. The decker was invented in 1903 to haul rails into the silver mines of northern Idaho. That is the history of the decker in one sentence !!! Bottom line you can pack anything on a decker with a little know how, there are limitations to what you can pack on a sawbuck. Really feel free to contact us , we teach packing classes, we can answer your questions. I pack for the forest service, Park Service, Montana FWP and a list of volunteer groups. So ask away that is what we are here for.

Andy


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## TrailheadSupply

But to answer your question on 1/2 and 1/4 breeds....Sawbucks typically have neither. Deckers have whats called a half breed, which is a canvas cover that contains padding and a board that run from front to back on both sides. this padded cover adds protection to the side of your pack stock the board distributes the weight of your load across the side of the animal, Remember a decker was invented for packing odd cargo that would not fit into a pannier. a quarter breed is a single layer of typically canvas that goes over your half breed to protect the half breed. For example if you are packing spools of barbed wire, cable bridge planks etc. hope this helps.


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## thenrie

Yeah. That helps a lot. Doesn't that add a lot of heat retention for the pack animal? Then again, I guess having a pack on does that anyway.


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## TrailheadSupply

If you are running either a sawbuck or a deck you start with a thick larger than normal pad. Both types of saddles run similar bars the difference would be the half breed and it does hold in some heat, but not that much more


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## thenrie

I notice that a lot of Deckers are advertised with a single cinch. Some advertise that a double cinch is available. Having only used a crossbuck with a double cinch, I wonder why the difference. It seems to me that a double cinch would be easier on the animal. What's your take?


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## TrailheadSupply

All our Sawbucks are double rigged. With a decker you have that option to double rig. Mule guys tend to lean toward double rig since mules are typically flatter backed than a horse. Therefor a wider cinch provides more friction more grab. Remember most riding saddles are single rigged except for a handful of double rigged mule saddles. I run all single rigged pack saddles, for whats that worth.


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## thenrie

TrailheadSupply said:


> All our Sawbucks are double rigged. With a decker you have that option to double rig. Mule guys tend to lean toward double rig since mules are typically flatter backed than a horse. Therefor a wider cinch provides more friction more grab. Remember most riding saddles are single rigged except for a handful of double rigged mule saddles. I run all single rigged pack saddles, for whats that worth.


Well, yeah, so do I, but I had never done it with a pack saddle, and I was wondering why one would. I guess it's just a matter of taste...or withers.


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## thenrie

thenrie said:


> Well, yeah, so do I, but I had never done it with a pack saddle, and I was wondering why one would. I guess it's just a matter of taste...or withers.


Hmmm. I misread your last line to read single rigged _riding_ saddles. My oldtimer's disease kicking in. I have never used a single rigged pack saddle. I suppose that if you don't have a problem with them, they must be ok. I guess the horse's withers would make a difference.


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## Painted Horse

Besides your big trip, What other uses do you see for your gear?
I prefer Utah Bags for hauling meat off the mountain. Just slip an elk quarter in and go.

I do like the Iron cloth for durability and ease of cleaning. But lightweight canvas sure rolls up easier and tighter to tie on behind a cantle if I need to ride and then throw the paniers over the saddle and hike out leading the horses. But it doesn't last as long.

Do you plan on using bags or paniers, or are you going to wrap stuff up in Mantes?


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## thenrie

I have always used crossbucks and canvas Utah-style paniers. We just pack them up, balance them, load them, cover them with a canvas tarp, and tie them on with a diamond hitch. We use the canvas tarps as bed covers in camp. Never even had a tent. Never tried anything else. Then again, my trips have normally been 3-4 days, with the occasional week-long one thrown in when I had sufficient time off work.

That's kind of why I started this thread. Up until now I have been using my dad's gear, because I only did trips when I was visiting him in AZ. For my GWT trip I'll need my own gear, so I wanted to figure out whether something other than crossbucks and Utah paniers might be better. You kind of get used to what you've used in the past, and it's pretty expensive to just try out something else, when what you've been using has always worked fine. I figure that since I'm going to be starting fresh I might as well ask around and see what others use, and why.

My intention is, from here on out, to do two or three major trips per year, say a week or two each, with several shorter ones in between (retirement is great!). Most of them will probably be alone, or with one other person. I won't be outfitting or guiding or anything, just riding and looking, sometimes hunting and fishing. I plan to do that until I physically can't anymore. My dad is 78 and he still goes out, so I'm hoping I have at least 20 years of this. I won't get much pack tripping in this year, while I'm here in VA, but next year I'll be moving back out west and the fun will begin.

I have my blog for my GWT trip going (see my facebook page, Western Trail Rider), and I'd like to keep it going after my trip by writing up each of my pack trips and turning it into sort of a guide for the various trails I try.

Having said all that, you can see that I'm going to want durable equipment. I am considering the Iron Cloth Utah paniers, but I don't know anything about Iron Cloth. I have sort of shied away from hard paniers, but I can see where they would be nice for a long stay at a base camp for a hunt or something. I can see where the soft paniers with a top would be handy in camp, but I cover my Utah paniers with a tarp on the trail anyway. The last option seems to be soft paniers with a hard insert. I can see some sense in that, and it might make packing less technical (not worried so much about things poking the horse in the side). 

I expect that over the years I may end up with several different types of paniers, but for now I'm looking for what I'll take on my GWT trip. I'll need two sets. I figure at least one set will be Utah-style, for their large capacity and versatility. The other set is up in the air.

I'm just about convinced to go with Decker-style pack saddles. One thing I've read about them, that I think is important, is that if you have wreck where a pack horse rolls, a Decker saddle is more likely to survive and be usable than a crossbuck. I've never had that happen, but I can see where it could.

There are several styles of saddle bows, though, for Deckers, and I'm curious as to what the benefits/problems there are with each. Must be something, or there wouldn't be so many variations. 

My dad has a set of saddle paniers that we use on hunts. I have the use of them any time I need, so I won't need to buy a set for myself. Figure I'll inherit them anyway, once he hangs up his spurs.

Sorry so long-winded, but that's what I'm looking at for the future.


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## thenrie

Painted Horse mentioned that canvas paniers are lighter. 

How much lighter are they than Iron Cloth? Has anyone ever worn out a set of canvas paniers? Ours have lasted an awful long time and are not yet wearing through anywhere. Is Iron Cloth the way to go? 

What are some opinions regarding the smaller rectangular bags with the wood rod and a closing top? What about inserts and hard paniers?


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## Painted Horse

I've tore up some Canvas Panniers. Especially when packing the cylinder stove for the wall tend. Seems if the horse bumps the pack against a rock wall or tree, and pinches the canvas between the steel of the stove and rock, It will tear.

Once you have a whole, then any continual rubbing will enlarge that hole.

The Iron Cloth is much more resistant to tears or holes.

Some of the hard sided panniers also serve as Bear Proof storage. Depending on how well they lock up.


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## thenrie

OK. Well, that's one decision made: One set of paniers will be Utah-style Iron Cloth.

Also, I'm leaning way toward the Decker-style pack saddles. I really can't see them being that much easier to load than crossbuck style, but I've read on two different sites that in a rollover wreck, a Decker will survive more often than not, while Crossbucks often break. Also, I like the protection a half-breed gives the pack animal as well. For a long trip, those two factors seem significant to me. I need to learn more about the different variations of the steel bows and what each style's advantages are.

I'm probably going to take a shot at making a set. I have all the tools and it doesn't seem to be technically difficult at all. In fact, I have enough canvas to make the half-breed and a quarter-breed as well. My dad has a sewing machine that will handle it, although I might have trouble finding a supplier for the padding. I have time, so we'll see what I come up with. I'll document it on my blog and post a couple pics once I get started.

Just have to decide on my second set of paniers now, whether they'll be another set of Utah-style, or a smaller set with the support stick and a top.


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## Painted Horse

I don't see any reason for the top flap if you are covering your loads with a Mante. From the stand point of hauling out Elk, I dislike the top flap. Just gets in the way of the quarter sticking up out of the pannier.

When I'm packing camp, Everything usually fits a little neater into the pannier, and I almost always have a top pack that covers everything up. I often use my rain sheets to cover the top of the pack. If bad weather blows in, I have something to throw over the horses while they are tied to highlines.

As far as the Deckers. Some have the smooth arch, Others have some dog ears. I think the Dog ears allow you hang some pannier like you would on a crossbuck. Lift the straps up and over to the far side and catch them below the dog ears. Gives you a little more versatility vs just using the hooks to hang on the decker arch near you. With the Dog ears, you can hang a pannier higher by using the offside or lower by using the near side, depending on the length of the straps.

This is a sawbuck, But gives you an idea of what I mean by stuff sticking up out of Utah Bag. They really do make an excellent Meat bag.


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## thenrie

My dad's paniers are exactly like yours, although I think his saddles have a little wider spread between the crossbucks. I sure like the look of that mule.

The only advantage I can see for the paniers with the top, is that they are a bit more rectangular than Utah paniers and can be used with the hard inserts. Utah paniers generally have a narrow bottom, like 6", as opposed to 11' or so with the rectangular ones (25wX19tX11) with a top. Utah paniers are longer and taller, but narrow at the bottom (25wX26hX6). 

I have never used the hard inserts, but I can see where they might be useful, make packing up the gear easier, as well as being useful in camp for a makeshift table, etc.. I find that with Utah paniers, in camp stuff gets pulled out and set on the ground while you're digging around looking for things. I think maybe with a hard insert, it would be a little easier to keep things organized. Maybe not.

I hadn't really thought about it, but I guess you're right, you can use Decker-style paniers on a crossbuck, but you can't use crossbuck-style paniers on a Decker, unless it has hooks or at least a good bend in the bows to hold the strap. Crossbuck-style paniers have solid hanger straps, so you can't unbuckle them or put Decker hooks on them.

Do you have problems with Decker style paniers hanging too low? I generally like mine to sit fairly high, but I see some with Decker saddles with their packs hanging a bit too low for my taste. With a crossbuck there isn't much adjustability in that regard.


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## dbhrsmn

A set of utah bags that we used a few years ago









We put this cooler and one just like it on each side. It gave the bag some form and protected our food and supplies. kept food cold.









The next couple pics are af a cool set of panniers a friend had. They were a little noisy on the way out, they weren't so full. They were a little expensive, but cool how they had stove burners that ran on a little propane bottle. 









This was the first trip for these boxes.









The shelves are made from the front covers.


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## dbhrsmn

This is one of our Deckers. we hang the utah bags just like on sawbucks.


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## Painted Horse

dbhrsm, Welcome to the conversation. 

Lets compare some notes on trails in So Utah. I need to try a few new trails.


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## thenrie

dbh
Where did you get those Utah paniers? They are quite a bit wider at the bottom than others I have been seeing.

The aluminum cabinet paniers are pretty cool and would be nice for a hunting camp setup, or a family camp. Wouldn't work for what I need for now, though.


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## LesandLily

I have personally always been a sawbuck guy. Partly in where I have done most of my packing...colorado and Wyoming. Idaho and Montana seem to be decker country. Some of the new deckers Have a bar across the top that facilitates hanging bags from them kind of like a sawbuck. Those are MUCH easier to load by yourself than a traditional decker where you have to buckle and unbuckled your pannier straps. If I were going to buy a decker it would likely be this one Decker Pack Saddle from Davis Tent. I have bought from Davis Tent and Awning for years and their stuff is top notch.


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## dbhrsmn

We have got some of the Utah bags from AA Callisters and some from Burns saddlery. They are only about 10-12 inches at the bottom but fairly deep. They are not a perfect fit but kind of form to fit around the coolers. I have looked at a few different places that have bags with different dimensions. I have them saved on my computer at home. I'll try to remember to post them later. 
The Deckers we have used are similar to those from Davis tent. You just hang your panniers just like on a crossbuck. After using both styles, I prefer the decker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbhrsmn

Painted Horse said:


> dbhrsm, Welcome to the conversation.
> 
> Lets compare some notes on trails in So Utah. I need to try a few new trails.


Thanks, I know a lot around Garfield county. I grew up here. I have been on a few other trips around. We have talked about going to the swell this spring and want to spend some time around robbers roost also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbhrsmn

Painted Horse said:


> dbhrsm, Welcome to the conversation.
> 
> Lets compare some notes on trails in So Utah. I need to try a few new trails.


Thanks, I know a lot around Garfield county. I grew up here. I have been on a few other trips around. We have talked about going to the swell this spring and want to spend some time around robbers roost also. All I usually need to get out and ride is an excuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thenrie

Hey! My dad was born and raised in Panguitch! You probably know Steve and Jesse Hatch. They're my cousins. They're off down to St George now, I guess. That's an area I'd love to do some riding in as well.

Boy, Davis Tent's photos are so small I could hardly make out the details of the pack saddle. He mentions that his paniers are nylon. I suspect Iron Cloth is just a marketing name for a nylon product. Is it the same stuff?


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## dbhrsmn

They are not the same. Iron cloth is a lot more durable. It is really hard to tear and puncture. If you do get a hole, you can just use a red hot nail or piece of metal to mend it. I do know Steve and Jesse. Not really well but I do know them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Painted Horse

Iron Cloth was developed as portable landing pad for Viet Nam. Just unroll it and lay it on the ground and the Helicopters could land on it and not sink into the softer ground. It is a much heavier fabric than even the Cordura fabrics.

I have several of Davis Tent saddle panniers and one of the 14x16 tents.. They make good stuff.

dbhrsmn, Invite me down to join you for the Robbers Roost. I've been wanting to ride into that side for years. I've ridden a lot on the west side of hiway 24. Chute Canyon, Wild Horse, Ernie, Lone Man, and Straight wash. I also had a Desert Big Horn tag for the South Swell and hunted most of that unit looking for my ram. So I spent a lot of time up in Eagle Canyon, Justinson Flats and over west by Moroni Slopes, Chimney Canyon, Segers Hole, Ireland Mesa, Poor Canyon and the Dike.

I've also ridden a lot around Bryce, But would like to explore a little more of the Paunsaugunt. I have hunted the top of Boulders a lot for elk, so I'm familiar with that area. But I'm sure there is a lot to see dropping down off the side and over into Capital Reef.

It wouldn't take much arm twisting to get me to load up and head down. Well, maybe when I get the trailer un-frozen.


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## dbhrsmn

thenrie said:


> Is it the same stuff?


I feel kind of dumb. My eyes saw nylon but my brain saw canvas. It is a heavy form of nylon
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbhrsmn

Here are a few sites with different iron cloth bags that I found a while ago.
Oversized Bear Cloth Pack Pannier

Pannier Bags *** Canvas & Iron Cloth *** Bear Proof

Utah Panniers Iron Cloth PACK SADDLE SHOP

Gundersen Sunrise Iron Weave Utah Copper Pannier


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## dbhrsmn

This pic shows a close up view of the "rings" on the top of the Decker we have used. I have seen some with deeper sides, but we haven't had any trouble keeping our panniers on these.
Image Detail for - ... decker pack saddle tree only our pack saddle bars are made of local


PH, I haven't been to Robbers roost yet. We have talked about going for 3 years or so now, and something always gets in the way. Same with the swell. I have even thought about hooking up with West Taylor. It would be good to be with someone that knows the area and history. I think he makes a trip out there every spring.

I spend alot of time on the Paunsagaunt. I love riding the different sections of the Grand view trail. it starts at the bottom of the Thunder mtn trail and ends around by willis creek. 78 miles of trail with several access points. Any time you or Thenrie are around I would love to ride.


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## Painted Horse

Ive seen Wes do that ride each spring and I've missed him in past years. I'd like to meet him and see that country.

I've never ridden the Grand trail. Just the Thunder Mountain to Coyote Hollow section, and of course across the hiway in Losee, Casto and I've been out the top of Casto and across the top and down cabin Hollow to Red Canyon. So I would love to see some of the section of the Grand., Maybe in May I meet up with you.


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## TrailheadSupply

Thenrie I'm back from Seattle. this is all I could find on the GWT....Did a quick search. I hear folks talk about it on hiking forums, but don't know much else. Here's a link I found: Great Western Trail - 2011 

ALso not entirely a recognized trail as much as a "path" that folks are trying to get desginated. Piece meal recognition exists state to state it seems. 

The Great Western Trail is currently under study by the U.S. Congress to become part of the National Trails System.

Hope that helps.

You may want to look at the CDT


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## thenrie

TrailheadSupply said:


> Thenrie I'm back from Seattle. this is all I could find on the GWT....Did a quick search. I hear folks talk about it on hiking forums, but don't know much else. Here's a link I found: Great Western Trail - 2011
> 
> ALso not entirely a recognized trail as much as a "path" that folks are trying to get desginated. Piece meal recognition exists state to state it seems.
> 
> The Great Western Trail is currently under study by the U.S. Congress to become part of the National Trails System.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> You may want to look at the CDT


That's why I decided to start my website. That's all old information. From what I'm getting piece-meal from different folks, the last undesignated part of the trail was southern Arizona, but they've got that worked out now. There may still be a few undesignated portions in Montana, but there are trails. Most of it is a system of trails, rather than a single track, except in AZ, where it follows the Arizona Trail. They had some delay in adopting the AZ trail as part of it, because all the other states made it a multi-use trail, allowing motorized vehicles, whereas the AZ trail is strictly non-motorized. I'm not even sure they allow mountain bikes. AZ would not budge on it, so the GWT people finally gave-in and adopted it. The official GWT site isn't a great resource for horse-related info. It is mostly old and related to hikers and motorized folks. I know there are folks who have done most, or all, of the trial, but in pieces only. As far as I can tell, nobody has done the whole trail at one shot, so total mileage and travel time are pretty much guesses. 

The guys from "Unbranded" are planning their own route. They expect at least 6 months travel time, but Ben told me they won't even do the trip if they don't reach their funding goal of $150K by Feb 1. I'm hoping they make it, because I'm going to follow their progress and pick their brains to make my trip have a better chance of success.


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## TrailheadSupply

It looks like you follow a lot of the CDT and I'm good friends with the northern regional director of the CDT lf it does i've got you covered.....


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## thenrie

I'll have to check that. I'm spending my time right now just studying the AZ portion. I was under the impression that the GWT lies a bit west of the CDT, but I guess it probably joins up somewhere north of Utah. Thanks for telling me about your contacts. I may need them. Over the next several months I'm going to start collecting USGS topos and trail maps and figure out exactly where the route goes and the elevations, for planning purposes. I'll start with AZ first, since I'm pretty familiar with that region. My traveling buddy is supposed to be doing the same for the Utah portion.

By the way, guys. Thanks for the info on pack saddles and related gear. I did a blog post on what I have found out. While I was doing it, I convinced myself to go with Decker-style saddles and Iron Cloth Utah paniers. I'm going to take a shot at making a set, just for the experience. If that doesn't work out, I'll be checking out Trailhead Supply


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## traildancer

So----where's your blog?

I'd like to read about your progress. Have you thought about the Pacific Crest Trail?

My sawbuck is from Outfitter's Supply. My Decker is being "stored" for a friend so I guess it's basically mine. I have a set of canvas panniers with flaps and plastic inserts and a set of molded plastic panniers that have legs that screw in to make a table when you are in camp. I like not having to balance my stove on a rock/log/stump or bend over to cook. But it adds time to set-up when you move every day, which it sounds like you will do.


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## traildancer

Wanted to add that I have purchased stuff from Trailhead Supply and they have good products and are a wealth of information.


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## TrailheadSupply

From my understanding there are parts of the PCT that in closed to stock travel


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## traildancer

All of the PCT is open for horse/mules. 

If a portion is closed it would be because of downfall that had not been cleared and was awaiting maintenance (usually early in the season). But the trail itself allows stock the entire length. I think it was legislated that way in the beginning. Check their website.


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## traildancer

I just went to the PCTA website. If you click on "Trail Closure Information" you can read where the trail is closed. One closure does mention that the alternative route may not be good for equestrian use, but equestrian use is still allowed if you want.

I also looked under the FAQ tab. And it says that the PCT was designated a non-mechanized trail which allows foot and horse/stock travel only.

It's fun to go to the Journal section and read hikers' journals. Unfortunately, not very many horse users post. But you still get a good idea of the trail and some of what one might experience.


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## TrailheadSupply

Just read all that as well. Thanks I don't get to the coast very often and never long enough to even thinking of riding the PCT So that one short closer must be the spot thats is always talked about and made bigger than it is, or the permitting process areas. Thanks for the insight


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## thenrie

Well, maybe I'lll do the PCT on the way home!:lol:


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## TrailheadSupply

Well you could come up the GWT then cut across the PNWT (pacific northwest trail) then down the PCT


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## traildancer

Yikes!!! If you do that, be sure to register with or notify the Long Riders Guild. That would be a TRIP.


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## thenrie

traildancer said:


> Yikes!!! If you do that, be sure to register with or notify the Long Riders Guild. That would be a TRIP.


I looked at that site. I don't think my rump callouses are in the same class with theirs. Besides, I do still have a few duties left at home. I'm not totally irresponsible...yet.:lol:

To tell the truth, there is still some question in my mind as to whether I can do the GWT in one shot. I'm not as young as I used to be. That's the goal, though.


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## grayshell38

I believe that at least 1000 miles qualifies you to be inducted, if they so choose.


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## thenrie

Well, I would certainly consider it an honor to be part of the Longrider's Guild, but that's not why I want to do it. This is just something I have thought about since I was very young. I have the opportunity, and I am still healthy enough that I think I can do it. 

My dad still wants to do as much of the ride as he can. He'll turn 81 in May 2015, I'll turn 56 in Jan 2015, my riding partner will be in his early 60s. I hope I'm as healthy as my dad when I'm his age. I figure riding a horse is about as healthy a thing as anybody could do. Maybe it will make me last a few years longer.

I told my dad that we might be able to get Geritol to sponsor us!


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## Jim Andy

I hope I'm not being rude by jumping in here but I believe all you gentlemen Have and do spend many hours in the saddle.I believe you can give me good advice about the kind and brand of saddle you ride and why you picked that one.
Thanks for you help.


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## thenrie

Not rude at all, but if you really want folks to see it and comment, you should probably start a new thread for it in the appropriate forum. This thread shows up on the main index as a thread on the "Trail Riding" forum about pack saddles, so folks who have no interest in that will pass it by. I actually put this one in the wrong forum, because I know who frequents this one and was confident I'd get the right people commenting.

From earlier conversations, I suspect you are talking about a western saddle. My personal favorite is a 14" seat 1947 Hamley ranch saddle with a 4" cantle and 15" swells. I inherited if from my wife's side of the family. Her uncle had it made for him. It's the saddle on my horse in the picture I posted on your other thread.

The old saddles don't fit modern horses very well, but it they sure fit my behind well. They tend to be shorter in the seat and tighter in the gullet. Horses back then tended to be narrower in the back and withers, as opposed to the more muscled and broader horses we have today. The average man was a bit smaller as well. I stand 5'9" and weigh around 180 (I could stand to lose 10-15 pounds easily) and conventional wisdom says I should be in a 16" saddle, but that Hamley is the most comfortable saddle I have ever ridden.

I also have a 15" Circle Y saddle I bought for my daughter. It is an all-around saddle. I paid $150 for it. It's at the lower end of the saddle quality range. It is a decent saddle with a Ralide (plastic) tree, and it works well for riding around on short trail rides, but I wouldn't want to spend all day in it. It's just not that comfortable. Fits the horse nicely though.

For a decent saddle, you can find used ones on ebay in the $500-$1500 range. A man of average height and weight, say, pretty close to my size, should probably be looking at a 16" seat. That is the measurement from the seam on the top of the cantle to the pommel at the base of the horn. There are other considerations as well, though, like the width of the swells, height and angle of the cantle, etc., that might make one saddle more comfortable than another for a particular person. In general, while sitting in the saddle, with your feet in the stirrups, you want to have about 1.5-2" between your thigh and the swell. Rod and Denise Nikkel are saddle tree makers and have a great website that addresses a lot of this pretty well. 

As for pommel shape, I have always preferred the rounded pommel, like a "Bowman" style. My dad prefers a wide pommel, like a "form-fitter" style the best. That was the style when he was a boy. Great for riding questionable horses, where you might need to hang on for dear life. His current saddle is on an "Association" tree, which is a good all-around saddle, with broad enough swells to give your knees good purchase in an emergency. 

Saddles built on a "bullhide" tree (wood tree covered in rawhide) are considered to be higher quality than synthetic trees, but not always so. A good bullhide tree is almost indestructible.

You might also consider a Australian saddle. Good ones are very comfortable, and they are quite a bit lighter and narrower than a conventional western saddle. I have put some miles in on one and liked the way it rides. They don't have much in the way of skirts, though, so they aren't as good for hanging stuff like canteens, saddle bags, and tying on a bedroll or coat on behind the cantle, in my opinion, for long rides. Note that Aussie saddles measure like English saddles. A 16" Aussie is equivalent to about a 14" western.

For your needs, I would suggest a good used saddle, such as a Circle Y, Big Tex, Colorado Saddlery, or Simco, or any number of decent older production saddles, on an "Association" tree. I wouldn't spend the money on a custom-built saddle yet, until you are sure this is going to be "your thing". You should be able to come up with one in the $350-500 range if you keep your eyes open. Then, later, you can figure out just what you like and go for a better saddle and keep the first one as a backup. I would stay away from NEW western saddles in the $3-700 range. They are made in SE Asia and India on poorly constructed trees with cheap leather that is essentially painted to look like quality leather. They are not comfortable and they will not last.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Craigslist and ebay are great places to watch for saddles, just make sure you include the shipping charges in your bid calculations. Some sellers get pretty abusive with shipping charges to increase their bottom-line.


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## TrailheadSupply

I ride an old Bramma bought it 15 yrs ago for $100 I must have a least 6 to 7000 miles in it. it is not pretty but it fits my butt....and thats all that counts at the end of a 30 mile day.


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## Painted Horse

If you can, You should sit in the saddle and see how it fits you before you buy it. Each saddle is made different and will fit differently. Go to a saddle shop and just try sitting in different makes.

Saddles don't fit every horse. So the same is true for fitting the saddle to the horse.

You will also want to try the slick seat, suede leather seat and some of the padded seats. I prefer a slick seat, easier to maintain, just wipe it off. The suede and padded seats can asorb more water in rain and snow storms. Suede seat is more grippy, to help keep you in the seat. But on an all day ride, I prefer to have a little less friction in the seat. You will have your own preferences.

If you buy a good quality saddle, it will last your lifetime and be passed down to your kids. I have not looked at saddles in years, But Crates, Colorado Saddlery were both good products in production built western saddles. I had my saddle custom built by an old saddle maker. At the time 12 years ago it was $1200. He now charges $3000 to start for any of his work. He has several saddles now in the Smithstonian on display. Mine is just a simple functional saddle, built on a Hercules rawhide wrapped wood tree. Which you can no longer buy.

Colorado Saddlery is a work project at the Colorado prison. Saddles were made by inmates learning a trade. I don't know if that is still true or not.


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## thenrie

Painted Horse said:


> Colorado Saddlery is a work project at the Colorado prison. Saddles were made by inmates learning a trade. I don't know if that is still true or not.


Now there's something I didn't know. My dad used to have a CS dealership while we were living in North Carolina many years ago. He bought himself and my mother a pair of CS saddles with matching tooling. Hers was a 15" roper and his was a 16" cutter. He still rides his today. They are built on synthetic trees, but are good saddles.

As for fitting your saddle to the horse, that is very important, not only for the horse's comfort, but for your safety. Some horses will eventually become hard to handle and may even learn to buck due to ill-fitting saddles. However, in my opinion, it is a lot less technical than some folks like to make it out to be.

In general, there are three basic saddle trees that will fit about 99% of all horses. The semi-Quarter Horse tree has a fork that is cut at about 88-89*, making the bars a little narrow in the gullet, to fit horses with extra tall withers or narrow build, such as some Tennessee Walkers and Thoroughbreds. The regular QH tree is normally cut at about 90*, and will fit about 90* of all horses reasonably well, particularly Quarter Horses. The full-QH tree is cut to about 91-92* and fits those horses with low withers or a broad build, short of a draft horse.

Another consideration is the length of the horse's back in relation to the length of the saddle's bars. A short-backed horse, like an Arab would likely get uncomfortable wearing a western saddle with a 17" seat and 23" bars. The tail end of the bars would be digging into his loin area as he moved. My dad has a small QH with that problem and we didn't figure out for years why he bucked at anything above a walk. Then again, I once had a Half-Arab the same size that had no problem with my 15" Simco.

You also have to pay attention to the gullet height. Roping saddles in the 70s-80s started being built with very low gullets to get the saddle closer to the horse. If you don't fit one of those right, the gullet may hit the horse's withers when you ride, and that can become a problem in a hurry. You need to have at least 2" clearance there with the saddle sitting on the horse without a pad, or you may end up with contact once it is cinched and weight is in the saddle. If you run into that, you can mitigate it somewhat by using two saddle pads, but that's not ideal.

There are oddities in horses that might make saddle fitting more difficult for some, just like there are people with physical oddities that make fitting clothes difficult, but the three main trees will fit about 99% of the horses out there. You should also be aware that the saddle that fits a three year-old ranch horse probably won't fit him when he's 20 and out to pasture. Just like people, their shape changes over time and according to their conditioning. 

When looking at saddles (and it can be different for different makers), in general a tree with semi-QH bars will measure about 6" across the front, under the gullet from side-to-side about where the conchos are. It is essentially where the saddle bars meet the front of the fork. Regular QH bars will measure about 6.5" and Full QH bars about 7". And, like I said before, measurements are a little different for different tree makers. Some of the antique saddles will measure 5-5.5" in the gullet and will be cut at even narrower angles than the semi-QH tree. I attached a couple pictures to help.

Hmm. As I measured my old Hamley, it's a 15" seat, not a 14" like I always thought. How about that? You can also see that it has about a 5.25-5.5" gullet width. A bit too narrow for most modern QHs.

Well, that was a mouthful. Sorry so long-winded.


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## Jim Andy

Thenrie; See this is why I ask my question here when you want to know something go to the ones you know has the right info,and you respect what they have to say.
That means I have a great deal of respect for what you and Painted Horse and others have to say Thanks gentlemen.


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## Painted Horse

Roping & Rodeo type saddles usually have a much lower cantle on them, So that the roper can get "out" of the saddle faster if they need to tie the calf or bulldog.

Us trail riders, often prefer a higher or taller cantle. It offers a little more support to help keep you in the saddle as your horse climbs hills, and gives you a place to tie coat, rain slickers etc during your ride.

Same goes for the pommel area. A man doing steer wrestling wants to come out of that saddle quick and easy, So he doesn't want bucking rolls or large pommel. A bronc rider working rough stock wants that bucking rolls to lock his knees under to help hang on. You will need to look at the kind of horses you ride and what security you like to have when in the saddle. You will notice saddles built for Cutting, Reining, Roping, Ranch work, barrel racing, endurance and trail riding. Each focuses on small features that adapts them to sport you might pursue.

I prefer a more traditional western look. I'm pretty good sized guy, So I want to spread my weight out over my horses back, I want some skirts to protect the horse and what I tie on. I don't rope or do any rodeo type sports, So I'm not worried how strong my trees are necessarily, But I have had horses go down and roll with a saddle on. So I appreciate a strong tree. This saddle was custom built for me, it is a 16" on a rawhide wrapped wood tree.









I don't carry a lariat, But I do use the leather thong to hold my lead rope when I'm in the back country.









My daughters on the other hand, Like the lighter saddles, and Often prefer a padded seat or a wool seat liner. I've got a western cut endurance saddle that only weighs in at 22 lbs, very small skirts and build on a Ralide tree. And of course the girl put a sheep skin seat cover on it.










I multi-task my equipment., We may ride a horse today, throw panniers over the saddle tomorrow and use it to pack or even shoot a deer and button hole it over the saddle horn on another day. I lean toward the heavier western saddles with good skirts.


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## thenrie

Great post, awesome pictures, and very nice saddle!


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## Painted Horse

Thanks Tony, It's taken a beating over the years. Unlike some neighbors of mine who won't take their nice saddles out for trail ride. Mine has been rained on, snowed on. thrown over a log at night, hauled deer and elk.

I would like to build a saddle one day, Need to figure out where to start and get the process started.


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## Jim Andy

Tony you and Painted horse I thought you might be interested in checking this out.
www.petescustomsaddles.com This man has a 4 week school where you will build your own saddle.


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## thenrie

oops. duplicate


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## thenrie

Oh yeah. I've been looking at his site for more than a year, wondering whether I should take his saddlemaking course. I bought one of his books. I have decided that saddlemaking is not technically difficult, but it's the fine details and little tricks and artsy stuff that makes the difference between a good saddle and an excellent one. I think I'm just going to give it a go and see how it comes out.

I'm like Painted Horse. I have no need for a show saddle. I want one that will hold together if a horse falls on it.

Here are some other sites that might interest you:

Western Saddles - Frecker's Saddlery
Okanagan Saddlery
Old West Saddle Shop
D. R. Schrader Custom Saddles
Western Saddles - Used Western Saddle

There are plenty more! Have fun!


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## Jim Andy

I kinda like the ideal of making my own saddle.I'm not so much into all the fancies like all this carving and such. To me that takes away the beauty of the saddle besides making a saddle harder to keep clean it says to me Look Look I can make little swirls 
in the leather. I like the ideal that I can take a dead cow and a tree stump and make something so use full out of them.


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## Darrin

Making my own saddle is on my bucket list of things to do.


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## thenrie

Can I get some opinions on this Decker-style pack saddle? It is fully adjustable, both for bar angle and gullet width. Seems like a good idea on the surface, but I'm not so sure. I would be concerned that the adjustable angle bars might allow movement of the load on the horse's back. You could end up with a pack saddle leaning to one side and the adjustable bars would allow it to ride that way, seems to me.

What do you think? Anybody used one like this?

The store front is Southern Missouri Mules at http://somomule.com, which is a great site for packing gear, by the way.


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## TrailheadSupply

That tree is made by Richland Yellowstone out of Sidney MT. I am not a fan at all of flex trees no matter who makes them. The problem with a flex tree is when you load them the bars no longer fit the animals back they flatten out and the weight of your load is no longer dispersed across the full bars length and width but only the top edge pressing into the animals back. You will see animals with white one horizontal lines runing along each side of the back these animals have been packed with flex trees.


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## dbhrsmn

Some friends and I were looking at a decker like that the other day. We thought the idea sounded cool. That it would adjust to fit individual horses. The more we thought about it we wondered if it would flatten out from the weight on the top or if it would pinch the horse from the weight hanging and pushing on the sides. 
I don't think any of us will try it now seeing what traiheadsupply says about them. 
I do kind of like the shape of the metal bars on it though. It looks like it would hold panniers like a sawbuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thenrie

That's what I was looking for. I figured the self-adjusting bar angle was not as good an idea as it appears to be. I'm still wondering about the adjustable hoops for gullet width.

I'm not sure you could keep those adjusting turnbuckles on the tops from twisting, even with the lock nuts, over a long trip. I think the idea is good, but I think they would need some sort of locking pins to ensure they did not twist and end up with one bar ahead of the other and a skewampus saddle. In the final analysis, I'm not sure there is sufficient need for this adjustment to justify it. I'm thinking that maybe it makes manufacture easier, so they promote it as "adjustable".


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## thenrie

I noticed that Giles and Anna, who are members of our forum who are trekking across South America as we speak, have one pack saddle that has self-adjusting bars. They don't seem to be having any trouble with it, but they don't appear to be packing it as heavily as some pack animals I've seen (and packed). They don't appear to be using the Halfbreed with it either. They are using it more like a crossbuck pack saddle, which is ok, I guess. Don't know why it wouldn't be.

They also have another style pack saddle that I've never seen before, pictured below. I say I've never seen one before, but I missed one just like it that sold on ebay several weeks ago for about $25, because the owner didn't know what it was...I didn't either. Wasn't sure it was for a horse or mule, but thought maybe it was for a llama or something. Should have bought it.

You can find Giles and Anna's facebook page at "The Great Horse Trip".


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## AnnaHalford

That packsaddle is a standard Chilean /Argentinian riding saddle frame (bars + cantle and pommel 'hoops') with modifications by us. Normally their saddles have more or less 7/8 rigging and a second surcingle-style cinch over the seat and overlapping the first.
We put new rings on so that we can use 'Y' rigging. Keeps the back of the saddle down on a horse who doesn't much like a belly cinch and who doesn't really have the shape for it either.
Second, because this saddle carries home-made pack slings, we added attachment points on the cantle and pommel arches so that we can clip the slings on directly. A second set of rings on the same arches allow us to put a light top load on the leather part of the saddle and secure it with two leather strings. The photo below doesn't show all of that in detail but does show the slings and the top load. 
In terms of weight, that horse carries between forty and sixty kilos with a new load (he carries grain for the horses so his charge varies according to how much we find to buy) and it drops thereafter because the horses are eating between four and twelve kilos of it per day. As his load lightens, we transfer elements of the other horse's load to make things fairer. His top load rarely exceeds eight kilos.
The grain is carried in two waterproof cylindrical gear bags which have no protruding parts.
Although it's not as easy as with a 'proper' pack saddle, I've still loaded bales of hay using a barrel sling onto this saddle, and with minimum help (I'm 5'4" on a tall day).

The other horse (pony) uses an adjustable packsaddle. We can throw a barrel sling but apart from that we have no idea how to pack with ropes - our pack panniers 'hook' onto the Ts on the arches. The pony's load stays relatively constant, between 45 and 55 kilos, including a top load of maximum 12 kilos. 
In terms of the swiveling bars, we have no problems with them. Bags are packed so as to have no hard objects on the horse side. No probs with sides either apart from one day when the pony had the trotting bug all day and had a pressure bump on one side of her ribs. 

For both pack horses, we use a leather sweat-absorber directly on the back, a vetbed intermediate layer and a thick wool felt pad in a canvas cover. Given the weight we pack, we didn't see the need for side boards.

Ever four hours or so, the pack horses are unloaded for at least a half-hour.


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## Darrin

If built right an adjustable pack saddle will be fine, if its not built right you have a nightmare on your hands. It's all in how the locking mechanism locks down.


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## thenrie

Darrin said:


> If built right an adjustable pack saddle will be fine, if its not built right you have a nightmare on your hands. It's all in how the locking mechanism locks down.


Do the self-adjusting bars lock in place as well? I thought they just sort of hinged and floated.

Thanks for the input, Anna. Your ears must have been itching! I've been keeping up with your trip. Great pictures!

Tell me a little more about the sweat leather you use under the pack saddle pads. I've never heard of that. I'd like to see a picture and learn how you use it, if it's not too much trouble. How are those McClellan saddles working out? I see they're getting that "used" patina. How do they do for long hours in the saddle?


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## TrailheadSupply

I think we should stop and realize there are flex type trees and there are adjustable type trees. One has some kind of locking system you adjust and lock that tree into that position, the other flexes all the time. I do have an early adjustable decker saddle made in the 70's and it has a cog type systems with pins in the top center of the dees and then bolts in place solid. (I'll post a pic when I get home tonight) great ideal but HEAVY !!! the saddle alone with no ropes or anything weighs 49# If you look at the 4 pictures that thenrie posted the top left one shows how that tree will be pushed flat and then in return pinch the back of your animal.


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## TrailheadSupply

Another problem with the flex pack saddle tree is when you are running empty or light, which I do a lot after dropping off trail crews. As the back of your pack stock moves and that causes the bars of your saddle to move it will walk your pad right out from under your saddle.


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## AnnaHalford

thenrie said:


> Do the self-adjusting bars lock in place as well? I thought they just sort of hinged and floated.


Exactly. They hinge and float. You adjust the arches so as to get the best overall width between the bars, then adjust the bars themselves with a rasp / sander to get the best fit for each bar. Our pony didn't need that much adjustment of the second kind but it took a while of trying, loaded as well, before we found the best width for the arches. It's an advantage not to have had really to touch the bars themselves, because if we do have to change animals along the way, we have a better start for a good fit. When the pony walks, the bars hinge according to her movement. As well as her back being in good shape when we unsaddle, I've spent a lot of hours riding behind her and haven't seen a limp, a hobble, a spasm, or any other sign that indicates an uneven distribution of weight.

We have a packers' scale for the loads and we have had no problems with the saddle or pad slipping, if the cinches have been done up correctly (there was one day when we forgot to check...) and the loads are balanced. Occasionally, because of the varied shapes of the items in the H-shaped top pack, it can 'slump' to one side: however, adjusting the straps that attach the top pack to the side packs will fix this. One thing that has surprised me is that the saddle hardly moves at all even for stiff climbs and descents. The pack pony doesn't have any kind of harness with her saddle, only a breast collar, and we were (are) ready to make / obtain one if needed. We check systematically after each serious change in height and I can honestly say that until now, we've never had to adjust the saddle because it's moved forwards or back.

In contrast, that saddle wouldn't suit the other packhorse at all ; his ribs are all wrong. Then again, the manufacturers do make draft bars which might suit better. However, the twist on the local saddle bars suits pretty well and accommodates his much more significant shoulder. His harness is necessary because of the single cinch and the fact that he has a very 'drafty' way of going, really getting his neck swinging and his chest into it. The one time I tried his saddle without the harness, just around the arena, his saddle pad walked about three inches... 




thenrie said:


> Tell me a little more about the sweat leather you use under the pack saddle pads. I've never heard of that. I'd like to see a picture and learn how you use it, if it's not too much trouble. How are those McClellan saddles working out? I see they're getting that "used" patina. How do they do for long hours in the saddle?


It's a piece of fine grain leather, reasonably stiff at the beginning, used flesh side against hair, and attached to the top pad front and back (otherwise it will walk out from underneath). It shapes to the horse after the first three or so uses, and it doesn't wrinkle. Absorbs sweat quite efficiently and stops the pad from getting too disgusting (washing facilities being limited), plus it lasts better than a fabric pad, what with the qualities of horse sweat. You need to soak them overnight in water once a month or so to get the salt out, and scrape off the crud with a knife or the curry comb at the end of the day to stop it drying hard overnight. We think we may have sized ours a fraction too long because there is some rubbing to the hair on both packhorses, just where the end of the leather is. We will trim one and see if it improves - if not, we'll have to look for another solution. 
I don't have a photo but they are much like this one. Ours are a bit finer because that's what we could find, leather-wise.
A leather sweat-protector is quite widely used in continental Europe, and here in Argentina they have either a canvas or leather one.

Saddles are working out well. We had to add another layer for each horse, so each now rides with two blankets, but otherwise all is fine. They're looking a lot less new now, aren't they, but it's all patina and absolutely nothing structural. They are firmly adapted to our behinds now and very comfortable, although since we get off and walk at least once every two hours if not a bit more, they could probably be a bit less comfortable and we wouldn't notice. MUCH happier with them than with the Chilean originals...


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## thenrie

AnnaHalford said:


> Saddles are working out well. We had to add another layer for each horse, so each now rides with two blankets, but otherwise all is fine. They're looking a lot less new now, aren't they, but it's all patina and absolutely nothing structural.


I'm going to have to look into those sweat pads. Never heard of them being used here in the states. Anybody else?

My comment about your saddles wasn't meant as a criticism. If you have taken a look at my fb page, you'll know I like "patina". In fact, I'm rebuilding a McClellan to bring it back to usable condition. That's why I was interested.

Keep up with the pictures. I love them. I lived in Colombia for a couple years a long time back. I would love to do what you are doing down there.


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## AnnaHalford

No worries, none taken. We're quite pleased they've lost that 'squeaky new' look ; it was embarrassing!


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## COWCHICK77

Hope you guys don't mind me bailing in!

Just curious, has anyone here used a Salmon River style pack saddle?


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## TrailheadSupply

Its is basically a sawbuck with a half breed. What i never did understand is whats up with the double britchen.


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## thenrie

COWCHICK77 said:


> Hope you guys don't mind me bailing in!
> 
> Just curious, has anyone here used a Salmon River style pack saddle?


Got a picture? Never heard of one. I've never used anything but a sawbuck, but without any kind of halfbreed.


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## COWCHICK77

Hopefully these links work...

Horse Drawn Equipment For Sale 
Products


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## thenrie

Link worked. Interesting site. Thanks for posting it.

He's pretty proud of his packsaddles, at $900 for the outfit. I wish I could see one mounted on a horse. Looks like he has a double breeching for the rear. Never seen one used.

Wouldn't mind having that freight wagon and four mules to pull it!


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## Jim Andy

Let me start out by saying up front I don't know anything about packing because I have never done it, here it comes "BUT" I have been doing some reading and watching videos and the most dangerous of all thinking. All I can seem to come up with is the crossbuck has been around sends Mosses was a baby,and it still works just like it always has right. I look at all these others and what I see is the same thing only different. It seems to me like all these other guys are reinventing the wheel.But what do I know?


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## COWCHICK77

TrailheadSupply said:


> Its is basically a sawbuck with a half breed. What i never did understand is whats up with the double britchen.


These are what everyone used where I grew up so I never knew any better or anything else. I couldn't even begin to tell you why, just that what was used. 
I am not claiming to be packer or to know a whole lot about it. I just worked for a guy starting colts and packing C-crews in the summer, hunters in the fall as a teenager.(20+ years ago) So I was just curious if anyone else has used them and what their opinions might be.

Here is a link to a few pics/slideshow of this type of pack saddle being used.
Photo Gallery


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## TrailheadSupply

cowchick, thanks for sharing the pics.


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## thenrie

COWCHICK77 said:


> These are what everyone used where I grew up so I never knew any better or anything else. I couldn't even begin to tell you why, just that what was used.
> I am not claiming to be packer or to know a whole lot about it. I just worked for a guy starting colts and packing C-crews in the summer, hunters in the fall as a teenager.(20+ years ago) So I was just curious if anyone else has used them and what their opinions might be.
> 
> Here is a link to a few pics/slideshow of this type of pack saddle being used.
> Photo Gallery


Sure liked that paint mare he was riding at the head of that string. He's got a nice setup there.


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