# Breeds with large neck



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

He actually looks a lot like an old-style Morgan with that lovely big sloping shoulder, upright heavy neck, little ears, straight profile, refined face . . . his body type too is very Morganish -- short coupled, rounded muscling. But I've also seen mustangs that look like that, and if you got him locally it's more likely Mustang than Morgan. Wrong color for a Kiger but he has a somewhat similar body type. 

Sure doesn't look like a Quarter Horse!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

A lot of that is weight, possibly something like low grade insulin resistance as well. Lots of breeds have cresty necks, and lots of individual horses do as well.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> A lot of that is weight, possibly something like low grade insulin resistance as well. Lots of breeds have cresty necks, and lots of individual horses do as well.


I wondered that too, prior to seeing the photo. Once I saw the photo, I felt like the horse in the photo [Hondo] doesn't look that "big" to me at all, certainly not big enough to produce a crest due to obesity - in my opinion...


M gelding is an Arab/Lipizzan [breed tested through Texas A&M, confirmed by the US Lipizzan Federation - you could have him breed tested through Texas A&M if you were really curious. The results aren't 100% fool-proof as many breeds are a mish-mash of other, older, breeds so there's an element of "error" depending on how far the test chooses to go back] and he has a relatively "heavy" neck. It's nothing crazy, but it's definitely Lipizzan-y! haha


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^I don't think Hondo looks that big in that picture either, but he isn't exactly slim and based off previous pictures I have seen he appears to have a history of obesity hence that comment 

Hard to tell weight from that one pic, but no he's not massive lol. Just to explain my reasoning, correct me if I'm wrong!

My gelding was obese when I got him and when I got him down to a 4.5/5 he retained the cresty neck. This was 6 years before he started having health issues and was diagnosed with Cushings/IR, he was healthy up until that point- at least as far as appearances! I do think part of it is his natural conformation but it's definitely more than normal. Now my Icelandic has a very thick neck but she's just thick all over, it's very proportional and normal for the breed.

Another thought is maybe Hondo was gelded late, that can definitely have a large effect on the neck.

But I wouldn't use neck conformation to determine yes or no to a breed in a case like this as there are so many alternate factors, possibly more than one being applicable.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I know the question was about the heaviness of his neck, but I think the set of his neck is more interesting, in terms of what breed/s he could be. Many individual reasons for a heavy neck, but a neck set that high would be basic inherited structure I would guess.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Avna said:


> I know the question was about the heaviness of his neck, but I think the set of his neck is more interesting, in terms of what breed/s he could be. Many individual reasons for a heavy neck, but a neck set that high would be basic inherited structure I would guess.


I was thinking that too. I don't think Hondo is gaited, but a lot of gaited horses have a high-set neck like that. My Foxtrotters for instance. My gelding has the exact same upright, thick neck as his mother, so I know it's genetic. 

The person who said Morgan or Mustang could be right. I had a BLM Mustang that my friend swore was an old-style Morgan, but he actually had a BLM brand and was from Wyoming. But Morgans are known for that type of neck.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A heavy neck, besides being a stallion secondary characteristic, comes from a draft influence, and many of the Liippizans and other Spanish type hroses, did have that influence in their background, with native European hroses , bred to Moorish blood, after the crusades
You also see it in some foundation Appaloosas, which again have some draft back in their pedigree, after the Nez Perce Wars
I agree that it is also seen in the old type Morgans
However, it is hard to see, if Hondo's neck is not in part due , to as mentioned. , some degree of IR.
His neck does look somewhat cresty. Is there any hard spot on it?
Of course, his mane is not lying flat, which does not help! He almost looks to have that crease down his back, associated with IR horses.
Moragns, living here in Alberta, on our rich pastures, are noted for being very prone to laminitis. When I happen to go into the grass restrictions that I need to use with Smilie, and not knowing as to what type of horses my listener has, it has happened more then once, that I was told, 'you don't have to tell me, I have Morgans!'
As for stripped hooves, I would need to see pics,as other breeds have stripped hooves
This link might help you to evaluate those hooves, and without a recognizable coat color, and without other characteristics like Sclera and mottled skin, random white spots are not considered Appaloosa markings

http://www.appaloosa.com/registration/indentify.htm


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is alink with some info, from which this paragraph comes from

Draft horses and draft crosses, some pony breeds, and Morgan horses may naturally display a bit more crestiness than members of other breeds. Additionally, stallions of any breed might retain more crest than mares or geldings because deposition of fat in the neck is a secondary sexual characteristic. These natural conformational attributes in a horse of moderate body condition should not be mistaken for a definitive signal that a metabolic condition exists.,


Cresty Necks in Horses: Possible Physical Sign of Metabolic Issue | Equinews


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I found this info on scoring a neck's crest, and think I'll check my horses tomorrow!
They have been having a good winter,with lots of forage and little work!

https://cms.qut.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/329616/how-to-assign-a-cresty-neck-score.pdf


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh Wow! Got a bunch of info. Where to start. I'll attach a photo when I first got him when he was loaded with strangles worms and was thin.

Yes, I am guilty. I have allowed him to eat too much, particularly alfalfa. He is now on free choice bermuda hay and is eating about half as much before going off to graze on some grass, weeds, and brush browse. He is loosing weight. I can even feel his ribs some now. Yay!

He get's sweet itch really bad and rubs his mane out in the summer so that part of it is standing straight up at present. But he does have some crest. I feel it almost daily and it is getting much much better.

Avna, during my excursions near Carson City Nevada hiking around where there were mustangs I saw one in a herd that had a halter!  So to me any breeds associated with mustangs is out the door. I have however had some suggest that he looked to have a lot of Morgan in him. And one person asked me if he had any draft in him. When I asked why, he said it was because of the way he moved.

I should also mention that he does not normally carry his head that high. There was something going on and they were on alert.

I've got to look up some of the other breeds that were mentioned. Plus Smilie's links. And having him checked by his genes is something I'll do if not too too expensive. I'd just like to know. Why? I'd just like to know. Yall being horse people understand.

Hondo is about exactly 14hh. But by measurements he is at least 1100 pounds. I hope to get him on a scale someday. 

Thanks for all the info everybody. And particularly for the description of "small ears and refined face". I like Hondo and that made me smile.

Here's a picture from May, 2014.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

My first reaction to the picture was " there's a lot of Morgan in that horse" 

I agree there's some insulin resistance in that horse, too


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Looking at Morgans on Google, most seem to have a longer back, but not all. Here's a couple that look close to Hondo.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Checking out Smilie's links the white visible in the eye and the stripped front hoof are both indications of at least possibly some Appaloosa. And the dark bay or brown Appaloosa has no more spots than Hondo. But none of the Appaloosa's have the thick neck.

And the Morgans and drafts naturally have some crest in the neck.

He has larger feet than the known quarter horse's on the ranch. So it's looking like 1/4 horse is out with Morgan in with a possible touch of Appaloosa.

Just went to Texas A & M. Shoot, it's only $40 to get a horse tested with a hair sample. I'll do that for certain. Here's the link. Thanks Wallaby!

Horse Ancestry - Animal Genetics Lab


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Morgans should be close coupled, it is part of the breed standard. Some have longer lines, particularly the more modern lines. But the more foundation lines are REALLY CLOSELY COUPLED. Some are so tightly coupled it can be interesting to get a saddle to fit them with their very short backs, wide loin and wide gullet. 

I agree that he is too heavy and I would be concerned about metabolic disease.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Dehda01 said:


> Some are so tightly coupled it can be interesting to get a saddle to fit them with their very short backs, wide loin and wide gullet.


Interesting. Now that I've crawled down the rabbit hole of saddle fit, that is exactly what I'm dealing with.

He is, I think, a little sway backed maybe, but the short coupling makes it seem like more than it is. I recently installed a full quarter horse tree into his saddle and I think it's still too narrow. I'm using two thinner pads at present with one slid back aways to give more clearance on his withers.

He needs another saddle.

I think most of his metabolic issue is that he likes alfalfa like most kids like chocolate cake. Plus he just eats and eats more than any of the other horses. I've catered to him but I am now stopping as I'm doing him harm. He is already slimmer and you can expect to see a slimmer leaner Hondo in about three months or so. I have a grazing muzzle waiting for the first grass.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Draft crosses and cob types - our Clyde cross has a huge neck, Irish Draughts can have thick necks, also Welsh cobs, Gypsy cobs, Fjord, Haflinger etc


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, how accurate is gene testing, these days?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Zexious said:


> Just out of curiosity, how accurate is gene testing, these days?


Depends, as most 'breeds' have diverse genetics in their background.
Breeds are man made, and only become defined once registries are created, with records of breeding being kept, other then just by word and mouth, or good guesses

Here is agood link that explains the principles used in that genetic testing

Horse Ancestry - Animal Genetics Lab


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Hondo said:


> I think most of his metabolic issue is that he likes alfalfa like most kids like chocolate cake. Plus he just eats and eats more than any of the other horses. I've catered to him but I am now stopping as I'm doing him harm. He is already slimmer and you can expect to see a slimmer leaner Hondo in about three months or so. I have a grazing muzzle waiting for the first grass.


when they "eat and eat more than any of the other horses", that is another sure sign of insulin gone amuk.

Joker ate like he was starving to death and his 15.3H self weighed a little over 1,200 pounds -- that's a good 100 pounds too much :eek_color::eek_color:

He never took breaks, like the other horses. Now that his insulin has been regulated, I can let him free feed from the hay stack (my hay always tests somewhere in the 8% range), he takes naps while grazing, and hasn't worn a muzzle for two years.

And I can easily see three ribs even under the winter coat. Before anyone says that's too thin, the vet sees him every five weeks to get his founder shoes reset. If he thinks Joker is too thin, he will tell me. I still fight myself to keep from putting weight on Joker but his life is at stake.

Hondo, get that weight off Hondo. Once the horse founders, it opens up a whole new and expensive/labor intensive can of worms.

You may not have read any of my threads where I comment that, between Duke's metabolic & hind gut issues (he never foundered), and Joker's high insulin levels and serious founder. Since May, 2007 I have spent enough money to buy a decent upper level dressage horse, a year's worth of lessons to ride that horse, and take one maybe two Alaskan cruises..

Those of us that have experience in dealing with metabolic horses do tend to get preachy because we know what's in store if the the owner doesn't quickly get the horse's weight under control, do an overhaul on the diet, and lower grazing time 

Thin is better for the horse and better for the owner's wallet. I do not take for granted that I am able to spend all my retirement income on my horses. When I was young and raising a son alone, I was lucky My dogs had more issues than my horses. I could not have afforded to care for Joker back then.

Money is tight for just about everyone. That shouldn't be made worse by taking the horse's overweight lightly, then the horse founders, then the household budget soon goes To Heck In A Handbasket.

^^^^That is for anyone who reads this and thinks it's cute their horse is heavy and the crusty neck is nothing but pure fat, instead of a natural arch that some breeds do have.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Big nod to Walkin's post, as I also have lived the expense and the heartbreak of IR
That appetite, as Walkin mentioned, is part of the symptoms, and in hind sight, I know I partly failed Einstein, and blame myself for his eventual Cushings
Smilie is another learning process, and while genetics played a huge role in her IR, I am also not blameless
Hopefully, Charlie will benefit from that learning curve, as she remains sound, with no metabolic issues. She also does not go out to graze without a muzzle, being an easy keeper
There was a time, Smilie had an area where her crest had a hard spot, but now that is gone. Her appetite has also normalized, so that I can feed her free choice safe hay, and she will often just eat some, then leave the rest, versus eating constantly, like before


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I've read your posts. That is partly what got me going on Hondo. Plus the ranch is after me constantly. Plus Hondo is breathing on hills where he should not. And gottatrot's major problem has me shaking in my boots. Guess I'd better do some serious reading on IR. The ph strips for checking poop should be here tomorrow.

He really really is losing weight though. I would not want a more rapid weight loss than he is doing right now. And he has free choice bermuda hay. The trick I am using is to by sort of not so good looking hay. He only will eat it if he is really hungry.

I have always thought he just WOULD NOT EAT bermuda hay. Then one day we came in from a sort of long ride without much grazing along the way. There was some bermuda that he had rooted out on the ground and ignored. But when we returned he ate it like it was chocolate cake. Uh huh. Hondo was fooling me.

No more. Lean and mean Hondo on his way. But I'll do some IR checking and got some test done if necessary.

I do understand that overweight can be abuse, to the animal or to one's self. The vet did see him about 6 months ago and said he was a little fat but not too bad. She was showing me the spots to jiggle.

I just sent off back measurements for saddle fit and his withers are a full 10 inches. Full blown draft shoulders. Some of it may be fat but not all 10 inches. No dang wonder I can't keep a saddle from slipping.

When I got Hondo all I knew was that horses usually wore shoes and most people threw a saddle on their back to go ride. Saddle was just a back pack for a horse as far as I knew. But he has not developed back sores except when he rolled in a saddle and broke a tree I didn't know about. But not bad then as I noticed it right away.

These horses! What did I get myself into??!! And the thing is I do not want and have no intention if getting out.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here's the right way:The Henneke Body Condition Scoring System - Habitat For Horses
No more "jiggling spots"


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just went out and went over Hondo. I'd put him at a 6. I can press with the flat of my hand and feel ribs before he moves away from pressure. And can feel them individually with my fingers. There is a layer of fat, but not thick. He has a slight crease around his 18 rib on his back, but not much. His tailhead has really firmed up. It used to "jiggle". He does have some crest but I read that drafts tend to have a bit of a crest. But still, it's more than I like but maybe its the draft. I don't think any other horses here have a 10 inch gullet. That seems like a big gullet for such a small horse?!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I would put him more at a high 7/8 with the positive crease down his back. I bet you are hard pressed to feel a rib. He has fat deposits on his tail head, back, shoulder and a significant crest.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

He only has the crease around his 18th rib. Two inches forward and on to his withers there is no crease. It turns into a ridge before the withers. Most of what appears to be a crest to you is hair standing straight up growing out from sweet itch. I might go a ways from 6 toward 7 but not a 7 and certainly not an 8. If you could actually examine him I doubt you would either. The vet did not and he has lost since. That said, I agree he is not at a healthy weight level and is why I finally have been doing something about it.

He's starting to break into a trot up short inclines like he used to do so I know he is feeling a little more spry since he has began to lose a little. Neither one of us has been very active the last couple of winter months but it's warming up now and the rides are becoming more frequent. I need to lose a little also. Don't we all?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

It is always better to henneke score in person, and I am only going by that single picture which isn't a great one since he is twisted. But it is what I do for a job. Either way he needs a slimming program and you are now aware there is a problem which is the first step.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Here is a fairly good PDF with pictures. 7 is top normal. 8 is when they get above that.

http://www.gerlltd.org/Education/Equine Body Condition Score Presentation.pdf


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

The Aztecas tend to have large necks.










I assume it comes from the Andalusian, depending on the breeding of the bloodline used. 

I think in some circles, especially Charros/Vaqueros an old world style neck and head are seen as very good looking. It could contribute to the way Hondo is made if he is basically a mix of older stock horse blood from Mexico and the Southwest. Very much a guess of course. One of those DNA tests from A&M would be interesting.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hondo said:


> He only has the crease around his 18th rib. Two inches forward and on to his withers there is no crease. It turns into a ridge before the withers. Most of what appears to be a crest to you is hair standing straight up growing out from sweet itch. I might go a ways from 6 toward 7 but not a 7 and certainly not an 8. If you could actually examine him I doubt you would either. The vet did not and he has lost since. That said, I agree he is not at a healthy weight level and is why I finally have been doing something about it.
> 
> He's starting to break into a trot up short inclines like he used to do so I know he is feeling a little more spry since he has began to lose a little. Neither one of us has been very active the last couple of winter months but it's warming up now and the rides are becoming more frequent. I need to lose a little also. Don't we all?


The problem isn't that he's a 6 (not that that's good but the world won't end) the problem is that he's a 6 AFTER losing weight (what was he before?!) AND that for a long amount of time he's been above healthy, if a horse gains and looses some weight that's normal, but to be fat and stay fat long term, esp very fat (anything above 6!) is not good.

And no I wouldn't say "well the crest doesn't count due to the draft" as you don't know he's a draft! The crest counts as well and that's the great thing about that scale is it allows for different conformations/breeds and to still get an accurate #.

I like the link Dehda posted though I'm not sure I agree that "5-7 is ideal" while being say a 6 isn't harmful is is healthier to carry less weight then more. I think that phrase comes from the HUMAN issue of ribs=bad, you don't want a horse thin of course but more is not better. I wonder if that is UTD info?

And most horses unless very thin and/or in ridiculous shape will have jiggling if you poke at them in the right spot.

I'd love to see pics of him as he continues to improve and while he neck won't go away completely I think I bet he will look a lot different.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Dehda01 said:


> I am only going by that single picture which isn't a great one since he is twisted.


Twisted?? Which picture are you looking at? I have two posted. The twisted one is from 2014.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

His hip is cocked in the first pic which makes it tricky, though he does appear fat.

I'm assuming the one with you(?) doing his feet is the older one?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

The one with you doing his feet is not complete enough to be an evaluation picture.


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