# should i change bits?



## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

also do you think it could be a rider mistake too?


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## DustyDiamond (Mar 18, 2010)

Maybe it's not the bit, it could be rider error. I don't want to sound mean but it could. Also maybe he just needs to be softer in the mouth?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't ride barrels, never have, so take my opinion in that context. I think that when a horse has difficulty turning one direction it isn't because they don't want to turn that way. It's always a physical reason. There is some pain or stiffness that makes it hard to go that way, so it's not them being stubborn or bratty, as some would say.

Therefore, I would go away from the barrels and work on getting him supple and comfortable turning both directions without the pressure of the barrel race.

As for the bit, I have used a tom thumb, just like the one you posted, and I really didnt' like it at all. I found that it was hard to do any sort of direct reining in it and it encouraged my horse to come behind the bit and then just plow right through my hands. So, instead of having more control, I had less.

What sort of bit is most commonly used for barrel racing? Do most barrel racers direct rein or neck rein? I am not sure what bit to advise you on,. but I think working on plain and simple suppling him to the right OFF the barrels would be a good idea.


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## DustyDiamond (Mar 18, 2010)

Almost forgot...


I barrel race but just gymkhana. I use a Sherry Cervi bit that looks like this.









Bit if you don't want a snaffle that has a twisted wire this is a regular snaffle with a short shank, they also have long shanks too, depending on how your horse is and what you want.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can you tell me how that bit is different from the Tom Thumb? I see fundamentally the same sort of bit, though the curves differ a bit and the twist is different, of course.


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## hjracer (Jul 19, 2011)

When I am at home just practicing I use a simple D-ring snaffle. I have found that getting my horse soft and supple in that will really help when I run him. When I compete, I use a short shank combination bit. Basically, don't be afraid to try several different bits to find one that works with your horse. If he is telling you that he doesn't like it or is uncomfortable, try a different one.


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## DustyDiamond (Mar 18, 2010)

oh oops I misunderstood what she was asking I thought she said she had the three pieced bit not the tom thumb oops I apologize for that.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

i cant say that im SUPER soft in the hands but im definatly not rough handed either. also i have only just started barrel racing in the last year or two so im not an expert. thats why im asking advice. and i the most i work with is turning, collection, and control walking before running. he is actually right footed so he isnt unable to turn right while running. he prefers the left for some reason but maybe sometime in his past his rider hurt him going to the right so he doesnt like it as well and hesitates. im not sure. ive only had him for about a year and a half now. i have 7 other horses but he is my barrel horse and i just want suggestions on which bit would be best to use or try.

the only kind of bits i own are a couple snaffles and the rest are tom thumbs. (oh and a hackamore) and thats all the choices i have to try from without buying more bits. he doesnt work well in the hack and the tom thumbs dont work. i can use a snaffle and its works fine but sometimes he needs more control than a snaffle gives. i dont want to waste money on several bits but i want my horse to be comfortable in the mouth and im not very knowledgable on bits. i want something that has control but also gives and wont pinch his mouth like i think the tom thumb is doing

also my horse doesnt neck rein (in training on that) so the bit isnt just sitting there to look pretty lol it has to actually work with him
thanks!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

DustyDiamond said:


> Almost forgot...
> 
> 
> I barrel race but just gymkhana. I use a Sherry Cervi bit that looks like this.
> ...


Please don't use these bits. They won't help any horse turn or run better. The function of these type of devices is to seperate a fool from his/her money. If horses could have nightmares these bits would be in them.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The problem lies at the other end of the reins. Changing the bit won't help.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

OP--Could be a dental problem, could be a physical problem as others have suggested, could (very likely) be a training problem. I don't have a whole lot of advice on the bitting end except to get out of the Tom Thumb. Maybe start with a simple snaffle, just to see how your suppling and flexibility is going with the plainest bit of all. If you have a coach or trainer, enlist their help. I imagine this horse needs a solid course in the basics of giving the pressure, bending, etc. When you get going consistent again, you might look at a dogbone Jr. Cowhorse as a starting place for a curb bit.

Wait, one more thing to throw out--what about a Little S hackamore?



tinyliny said:


> Can you tell me how that bit is different from the Tom Thumb? I see fundamentally the same sort of bit, though the curves differ a bit and the twist is different, of course.


And the gag--there's one huge difference in action right off the bat. It'll pull through the mouth, gradually tightening on the lips and bars, adding poll and curb pressure as it goes and pulls back and up on the tongue. Then you have far less leverage in the Cervi than in the TT. Why? Although the overall cheeks are longer, the ratio of shank to purchase is 1:1 as opposed to, what, 4:1 in your average TT? The magnification of leverage pressure will be negligible on the Cervi (at its maximum when the gag is fully engaged, but still probably only a quarter or third again added) while the average TT is going to multiple pressure on the reins fourfold. That's a lot of pressure on the jaw. Along with the gag mentioned earlier, you've also got the obvious "loose jaw," which is always a huge advantage for curb bits, lending itself to ease and subtlety of cues. A better finished mouthpiece with a smaller, more mobile central joint seals the deal. I disagree with kevin that the Cervi bits are the stuff of nightmares. Save for the twisted and too-thin smooth mouthpieces, they are definitely the lighter, better, less harsh bits of the two discussed.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

ok. based on your posts and also some research i did im looking at these two: 
















(both pictures/ products from chickssaddlery.com)

my problem with the hack in the first pic is in the description it says that there is not much stopping ability. i currantly have a mechanical hack on one of my horses and it works well her but im not sure how well it would on Joe(my barrel horse) i have rode Joe in a halter before so i trust him but the control part didnt go so well lol. he can have a very bad "you are not the boss of me" attitude at times and its VERY difficult to get him to do much unlesss you have a shank bit in his mouth. he is MUCH better with minding me and listening to me than in the first few months we had him. on the website that the pics came from the bits are on sale and i might try the dogbone bit first and if that works well then i wont bother to try anything else but i will think about trying the hack on him anyway. if it doesnt work i can always try it on some of my other horses. if you have any other ideas on this let me know
thanks!


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

If a horse is stiff to one direction, I always assume it is, like Bubba said, either a physical or training problem. I would get the horse out of the bit it is in and get it into either a snaffle or a bit where you can isolate shoulders and get lateral movement. 
This is my "go to" bit for horses I am moving out of a snaffle. 









This one is short shanked, but I have the same basic mouth with other lengths of shanks as well.









As you can see, I can lift one side and get movement and therefore a cue, on the side I want. Impossible to do with a tom thumb.









For your horse, I would go back to basics, ask for turns on the haunches and forehand, do some sidepassing, two tracking, etc, to get it's body moving and loosened up. If you can get both sides going well and not stiff, you will have an easier time with your patterns in the long term.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Trust me--you'll have plenty of stopping power in the Little S, if you decide to go that way.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

reiningfan said:


> If a horse is stiff to one direction, I always assume it is, like Bubba said, either a physical or training problem. I would get the horse out of the bit it is in and get it into either a snaffle or a bit where you can isolate shoulders and get lateral movement.
> This is my "go to" bit for horses I am moving out of a snaffle.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't barrel race anymore and seldom even ride western. BUT, I have seen this bit in a couple of threads and I really like what I see with it. The mechanics are nice! I would definitely try this bit if I was riding western.


I really agree with Kevin about the Cervi bits!!!


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## JumperWithFire (Aug 10, 2011)

Agree with kevinshorses. Problems stopping and turning are not solved by a harsher bit. Just made worse and the only result is a harder mouthed horse. Transitions people! Practicing transitions means everything! I ride all my horses in a loose ring snaffle.  As far as barrel racing goes though Im not quite sure what you start them out in.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

im not trying to get a harsher bit. im actually trying to get a softer bit but one that still has control for his attitude moments


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

ignore that last post lol. i added more to it:
im not trying to get a harsher bit. im actually trying to get a softer bit but one that still has control for his attitude moments and also one that doesnt hurt his mouth.
i understand everyone's veiw points that say it may be my fault and i might be riding him incorrectly and i dont want to sound rude but i dont think its my fault when he opens his mouth and winces in pain. i know that i am kinda causing it by being the one is pulling on his mouth to get around the barrel but its the bit that is hurting him. also i cant help it when im trying to get through the pattern when competing. at home i dont have an area big enough or anyplace close to me that has enough room to practice RUNNING the barrels. at home i can only trot to teach the pattern but there is only this problem when my horse is running the barrels and while im working with other stuff that involves tight turns. other than that he is pretty good with the bit he has.
i will try to get both the s hack and the dogbone bit and will try them both. i honestly am reluctant to continue training because i hate knowing that im hurting him everytime i ride him.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Have you had his teeth looked at? From the description of his reaction, I'd say that would be an avenue to try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Also, I am not really fond of that dogbone bit that you have posted. The way the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks is not ideal. 

I know you don't know me, or any of us, from a hole in the ground, so I'll introduce myself a bit. I raise QH's and Appies and start a lot of young horses. I do a wee bit of speed events, going to the provincial gymkhana club finals last year & placing 3rd in poles. 
It's hard to do an evaluation from just a few written posts, but I would start with getting your horses teeth checked. 
Next I'll ask, what are your cues going around the barrels? Where is your hand? Do you lift the rein or pull sideways? 
Does your horse react the same with his mouth and body when doing a turn not around barrels?
Does he move his shoulders away from leg pressure?
Lots of questions, I know, but it can be so hard to help someone over the net.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

going around the barrels i slide my inside foot back to help push his hind end around so that he is straight when we go to the next barrel. i dont kick a whole lot like other people i mostly use my voice and kiss to speed him up. when we approach a barrel i shift a little back and barely lean and say "ease" to let him know we are about to turn and to ease up a little otherwise sometimes he flys past the barrel instead of turning around it. when we are going around i straighten up i just lean to help him start it off then hes fine.

yes he also does this when i turn him sharply whether around a barrel or not. its just worse when we are doing barrels because of the speed so it happens quicker probably making his mouth hurt more.

sometimes he moves away from pressure and sometimes he doesnt. im in the proccess of teaching him to move his shoulders, hind end, and body away from pressure. he doesnt know how to side pass or neck rein yet but ive only had him for about a year now with about 4 or 5 months being winter. i dont ride much in winter because it gets too cold or the ground is either ice or slush. he is still in training on this stuff but i hate the thought of a bit hurting him, disrupting the proccess and point of what im trying to teach him.

i dont mind the questions. it helps you understand my situation better. my horse is 10 so he should know some of this stuff by now but the people i got him from didnt do much with him. he has alot of potential as a barrel racer/ speed horse. he just needs help to get there and being in pain because of a bit doesnt help. im asking advice for which bit you think would help most without inflicting pain and that i could most likely use on him for the rest of his life as long as he works well in it.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

I love, love, love the bit that I pictured. My horses really seem to do well in it and I haven't had resentful, sore horses due to it. Personally, it'd be the bit I'd try first. I like the little S hacks, but more for finished horses that are already patterned and don't still need much training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Any chance you can get a video so we can see what's going on? Like reiningfan, I would get his teeth looked at, and like reiningfan, I don't like the dogbone you posted...if you _do_ go the dogbone route, I'd recommend Jr. Cowhorse shanks based on your description. You've gotten plenty of good suggestions, though.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Horserider33 said:


> he doesnt know how to side pass or neck rein yet but ive only had him for about a year now


I just want to highlight this. It is my understanding that a horse should not be ridden in a curb until it can neck rein, and that if direct rein is needed still, they should be in a snaffle still. Can someone like Bubba clarify this for me?


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## JumperWithFire (Aug 10, 2011)

If hes opening his mouth and you dont like it then get a nose band. Yes I realize western people dont use nosebands but you could start. That way he couldnt avoid the bit. But I still think you need to work on transitions.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Your horse should be at least starting to understand neck reining before switching to a curb. Best case scenario is that it is already neck reining when you switch bits. 
Some curbs don't lend themselves to direct reining at all. The one I posted pics of can be used two handed to help isolate specific parts of the horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

JumperWithFire said:


> If hes opening his mouth and you dont like it then get a nose band. Yes I realize western people dont use nosebands but you could start. That way he couldnt avoid the bit. But I still think you need to work on transitions.


If she is worried that the bit is causing him discomfort, I wouldn't recommend a noseband. That could just make him sore & resentful if he has a dental issue. 
If he were simply evading pressure, then I'd think of using one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm confuzzled by the viewpoint that some of the above bits are cruel, yet it's OK to use a noseband if your horse is avoiding the bit. :shock:
What, so he can't get away from the pain of it and has to grimace and bear it? No. If the horse is fighting the bit, the key is not to tie his mouth shut and force him to submit, but rather to change to a bit he likes and/or correct the necessary holes in the training. I've been saying this forever, but recently saw the following posted on the Myler Facebook page:



> Nosebands can make a horse's head look more elegant by breaking up the length of the head; if you must use a noseband, adjust it loosely. Don't strap your horse's mouth shut over the bit. If your horse is opening his mouth over the bit, there's a reason for it. A snug noseband can also cause painful lesions as the cheek is forced against the upper row of teeth.
> 
> ...
> 
> Press your hands against your cheeks and move your lower jaw up and down. We had the opportunity to meet a terrific equine dentist at the CHA conference last October. She explained the lesions--she's seen them frequently but they aren't really noticeable with just a cursory exam and a standard float. It was a little startling to learn what goes on in a horse's mouth. I'll post her name when I find it. She was an excellent speaker.


As for neck-reining / curb, to me, it depends on the curb bit. A solid curb should only be used on a neck-reined horse. A broken curb, however, can be used with direct-reining, and frequently is. If it's a good, well-made bit, designed for this sort of use, I personally would have no problem using it on a horse that did not know how to neck-rein. I'm not sure that I would use that bit to _introduce_ the concept of neck-reining to the horse, however.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> I'm confuzzled by the viewpoint that some of the above bits are cruel, yet it's OK to use a noseband if your horse is avoiding the bit. :shock:
> What, so he can't get away from the pain of it and has to grimace and bear it? No. If the horse is fighting the bit, the key is not to tie his mouth shut and force him to submit, but rather to change to a bit he likes and/or correct the necessary holes in the training. I've been saying this forever, but recently saw the following posted on the Myler Facebook page:
> 
> 
> ...


 
I should be more specific. If I have a horse that is an older broke horse who has had their teeth checked and is sound, yet still gaping, I will put a noseband on fairly loose, just enough so that they can't gape their mouth open, yet not winching it shut. 
Sometimes with older horses, they have figured out to open their mouth to avoid having to listen to the bit. I have found it especially common in horses that have been used as kids mounts. I would not use one when the kids are riding though.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Sorry, should have clarified that I wasn't directing my post so much at you as at the one above.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

I figured I should clarify for anyone reading this that I don't just go around winching mouths shut 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

You might want to try going back to a basic snaffle and finding any training issues and fixing them. After you have done this, you can move up to a more refined bit.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

thanks for the posts!! they are very helpful.



> If he's opening his mouth and you dont like it then get a nose band. Yes I realize western people dont use nosebands but you could start. That way he couldnt avoid the bit. But I still think you need to work on transitions


 he only opens his mouth when he is trying to get away from the bit when it hurts him. not randomly whenever he feels like it sothats not the problem.
i have been trying to find a time where i can get someone to tape me running the barrels. i have found a flat spot in my pasture where grass doesnt grow well and i might be able to dig up the ground in that one area and RUN barrels there instead of trot in the yard. maybe this weekend i will be able to get a video for you.

also reiningfan: it sounds like the bit you have would be a good bit but if im running full speed and i have to pull him around a barrel to finish it correctly are there any parts that could put him in pain? i see my cousin at alot of shows i go to and she uses a solid curb bit and when she pulls on it, her horse opens her mouth and puts her head up so im kinda weary about solid curbs (even though i know its my cousins fault on that one. she jerks on the bit where even im not jerking when running i know its still a fast act with what im doing even when i try to slowly pull it still hurts him). but, my cousins bit has a higher port and doesnt have moving sides so your bit does kinda interest me though.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

and with the neck reining training i will probably use a regular snaffle for that. i will still need a better bit to run him in though beacause when im running even if he does neck rein i might still pull a little (hopefully i wont have to as much though) to help him finish it out straight and to help turn the barrel a little tighter. (he turns a little wide but getting better on that too)


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Reiningfan's bit is far better than your cousin's bit. I really don't like solid bits in general, and they should (almost) never be used for direct-reining, only neck-reining, because of the very phenomenon you just described. With RF's bit, though, you do have to be careful about pulling way out to the side--it's not meant to be used that way. You need to keep your hands within a certain "box" for it to function correctly.


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

while i try get a chance to get a video of me runnin barrels could you guys post pics of a few different bits that you think would kinda fit from what you know so far please? thanks!


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## CaptainLiecy (Sep 29, 2009)

Personally, I would take this course of action: 
1. Dentist 
2. Chiropractor
3. Physio/massage therapist
4. Training - for both horse and rider
5. THEN try a different bit
That's just my opinion based what I have experienced works with my horses  they all go happily in snaffles and don't go through any pain when I ride them  I'm not a barrel racer, but I believe that all types of riding come from the same foundations and the same meaasures can be taken to make them as happy as possible


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Although I agree with most of that, I'd change the bit anyhow. I really don't like the type of bit the OP is currently using. I have never seen a horse who truly liked it. 
That said, take a couple of staples, attach said bit to the wall & it is suddenly a useful towel holder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If he was my horse, I would put him back into a simple loose ring snaffle for the foreseeable future. After having tooth and back pain ruled out, he is likely in desperate need of some re-training and if he doesn't neck rein at all, he shouldn't be in any type of curb bit, especially one with a broken mouth that is so confusing when you try to direct rein. 

AFTER you get him soft and supple and responsive in the snaffle, then you can put him back up into a curb bit if you think you need to. The bit that reiningfan posted (buy it here) is one that I use on some of my horses. It is a very nice bit that has wonderful feel. It is the bit that I use on my main ranch horse and we do all kinds of things that are just as high octane as barrel racing. 

If you need anything more powerful than that to keep control of your horse, then there is a serious training/riding/handling problem.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

Smrobs, I've got a question. What makes you prefer a loose ring snaffle over an eggbutt or D-ring? I like to hear different trainer's opinions on this. 
I personally use french links on almost all my youngsters now. My horses seem to be happier and more giving now. With a single break snaffle, I had some that let me know about their displeasure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I just seem to have a better feel in a loose ring. I honestly don't know how to explain it better than that LOL. I've got one full cheek that I used on my Perch when I rode him but it just didn't feel quite so good in my hands and I felt like I lost some of the connection.

One of these days I will be getting a french link, all I have are single jointed snaffles right now. Thankfully, I haven't had any that really had a problem with it.


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## JumperWithFire (Aug 10, 2011)

If you think the bit is hurting him then you should defiantly get his teeth checked out and floated. Check for wolf teeth. Then maybe next a chiropractic adjustment since he fights you to go one direction. Otherwise you said he "sometimes" moves off your leg? Need to work on improving that and transitions before u ever go back to a barrel. I would also put him back in a loose ring snaffle.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

All horses will gape when a bit is being used in a tough way, especially curbs. The function of the curb strap is to give the bit "purchase" when pulling the reins. The curb can then use its leverage to pull the mouthpiece down onto the bars of the jaw. If you pull hard, it hurts and the horse will gape to try to escape it. It says nothing about tooth pain, per se.

The way to get the horse to quit gaping is to use better training to get the horse more responsive to leg/seat....so you don't need to use hands quite so much for routine things.


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## JumperWithFire (Aug 10, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> The way to get the horse to quit gaping is to use better training to get the horse more responsive to leg/seat....so you don't need to use hands quite so much for routine things.


Amen to that


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

smrobs said:


> If he was my horse, I would put him back into a simple loose ring snaffle for the foreseeable future. After having tooth and back pain ruled out, he is likely in desperate need of some re-training and if he doesn't neck rein at all, he shouldn't be in any type of curb bit, especially one with a broken mouth that is so confusing when you try to direct rein.
> 
> AFTER you get him soft and supple and responsive in the snaffle, then you can put him back up into a curb bit if you think you need to. The bit that reiningfan posted (buy it here) is one that I use on some of my horses. It is a very nice bit that has wonderful feel. It is the bit that I use on my main ranch horse and we do all kinds of things that are just as high octane as barrel racing.
> 
> If you need anything more powerful than that to keep control of your horse, then there is a serious training/riding/handling problem.


Yes, yes, yes. I wish I wasn't on my phone or I'd "like" this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

i am putting him back into a snaffle (i dont have a loose ring but i do have a d-ring) and i will be working him in that on flexing, moving away from pressure, neck reining, etc. all the simple/ starter training pretty much. i dont think i will get a hack because those seem to be more for finished horses who dont need a bit as much. my horse needs a bit for the control. im really thinking between the dogbone and the low port curb. i might be able to get both and just see what works better.

bubb13, could you post a pic of the dogbone type that you are suggesting? one with jr. cowhorse shanks? that way i have more of an idea of what you are talking about with it


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)




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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

bubba13 said:


>


That looks a lot like the bit I use when I ride in a curb. I <3 that bit. lol


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## Horserider33 (Jun 21, 2011)

ok. i will probably try it then. thanks!!

and it turns out i do have a loose ring snaffle lol. i thought i sold it but i didnt so ill use it. i cant find my d-ring though. (my tack room is a mess and needs cleaned so i can find stuff a little easier lol)


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